# Marx 409



## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Hey all,

My old 409 came in the mail today. It needs some cleaning, but its not in bad shape.

I got the motor assembly out, however, the rear deck is proving troublesome to remove.

So, how do I get the rear deck out without breaking it? Any tricks I should know about?

T-Man any suggestions

Cheers, Ian


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ian,

Any pics???

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If it is like the 490, it tilts.That's the best I can describe. I will need to look back and try to find Pics. It belongs to a friend and I cleaned it up. 

As a funny story he was so pround onhow it looked he showed his wife. Then the motor just fell out. Not very impressive. I got it back and set the back plate cause it slipped.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

TJ,

I will post pics as soon as I can.  It doesn't have a reverse unit, and it has a brass or copper strip in the front that isn't hooked up to anything. Not sure what it is for.

T-Man,

I tried prying it out by tilting it sideways, but I was afraid I was going to break the plastic, so I gave up. I will try again.

Thanks guys,

Cheers, Ian


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It should tilt into the cab so it can drop the motor.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Guess what? Its a 490, not a 409.........DUH:lol_hitting:

BTW, I got the rear deck out without breaking it


Cheers, Ian


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

*Update*

OK, got the new parts in the 400 motor, and it runs

Now on to the body:thumbsup:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I found the trap door picture.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

What holds that in place once motor is installed? Do tabs on trap nest into motor housing, then motor gets screwed to top of boiler ... or something like that???

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Near as I can figure, everything just snaps into place.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

*another update*

Here is a few pics.

The 400 since I stripped the paint and cleaned the engine. Pictured is the rear deck that was missing when I bought it. I took it out of the 490.









The 490. I just received the NOS rear deck in the mail today. That one will go in the 490 when it is repainted. Haven't ran the engine yet.









The Penn Central tender. 8 wheeler, pretty good shape for its age.









Anyway, thats it for now....

Cheers, Ian


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ian,

Thanks for posting the baby pics ... first ones, I think?

What's the difference between the 400 and the 490? Your pics of the shells above have the two looking nearly identical ... is that the case?

Why are you flip/flopping the rear decks ... out of 490, into 400? Why not replacement one into 400? Just curious.

Are you planning to repaint the loco shells?

"NOS" <=== ????

Tender looks great ... nice condition.

That's some shiny track. Brand new? Lionel O (rather than O27) ???

(I think I've used up my daily allotment of questions ... Sorry!!!)

TJ


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

tjcruiser said:


> "NOS" <=== ????


NOS = New old stock

Which means that the part was produced by the manufacturer, but was leftover and put into their parts inventory...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

B&M,

Thank you!

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

B&M..:thumbsup:

TJ,

The shells look almost identical. There are a few subtle differences, like the cab roof, for one.

The rear deck from the 490 fits perfectly into the 400 shell. Replacement part problem solved

Both shells will be painted, and I hope to do a little work to keep the finish from being just flat black monotone. Boring!!

Anyway, thats all for now

I'll let you guys know when I run the 490 motor:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks! Keep us updated on your progress ... it's fun to peek ... especially for me, who has no experience with any of this Marx stuff.

Cheers,

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

*update*

Finally tried running the 490 engine, and nothing. Doesn't even make noise.








Any suggestions?

Cheers, Ian


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*What?*

Ian, what happens when you touch the wires from your transformer to the pick up plate and wheels?

Have you opened it up and checked the brushes/springs?

Can you tell if the wire to the pick up plate is making good contact?


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Jim

Thats the thing, there is no wire from the pickup plate to the motor. 

There doesn't even seem to be a spot for a wire. That's whats confusing me.

The pickup plate on this motor is about half the size of what I have on my other Marx trains and there is no spring, or a spot for a spring, the plate just clips on to the bottom.

I tried taking the wheels off, only to find out the side plates that hold the motor are plastic. I broke a small chunk off, but nothing important.

I'll need a wheel puller for this one

Wierd


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*picture*

Is this what your motor looks like?
At each end, are there hole where it turns up(red circles)
View attachment 2977
?
No spring? Odd.
There has to be a connection to the center rail.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Jim,

Yup, thats the setup I have. No holes in either end of the pickup plate. Very strange.

Does yours have a spring under the pickup plate?

I agree, there HAS to be some type of connection. 

What about the copper plates on either end of the engine that wrap around the axles? Mine are bent and aren't touching anything. Do you think this is the missing connection?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm no Marx guy, but could the center hole in the middle of the copper pickup plate be where you would solder a wire to run from there to the E-unit (or brush, depending upon the circuit layout)?

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

TJ,

I thought about that, but there is no evidence of solder on the pickup plate, anywhere.

This is perplexing....


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Is it a new, vigin pickup plate that's never been soldered ???


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

That is very possible, but it has shallow grooves wore in the bottom center.

It was the cleanest piece on that whole locomotive...so it could be new


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

In post 11 picture two you have a wire from the coil to the brush on the brushplate. Where does the other wire from the coil go? looks like to the frame. That won't work it has to go to the copper pickup. You don't need to remove the wheels yet. Just clean them. Show an underside picture if you can.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

T-Man,


Here are some pics. They're blurry, so I hope you can see them. 

The bottom




































T-Man, the bottom brush plate has solder on it, but no wire. I wonder if that has anything to do with it


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> In post 11 picture two you have a wire from the coil to the brush on the brushplate. Where does the other wire from the coil go? looks like to the frame. That won't work it has to go to the copper pickup.


T-Man, 

Not to question your "train of thinking", but why do you say that? Isn't it possible that:

Hot (center rail) could go to one brush going to armature.
Other armature brush could have wire going into field (coil).
Other end of field (coil) could go to frame ground, which is connected to outer wheels.

Wouldn't that work OK like that?

Set me straight.

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I was thinking Marx. The brush is grounded to the frame.
So TJ, you are on the right track.

Now THis beast has plastic sides? So SInce the brush is not grounded it may go to the center pickup. The copper tabs need to touch the axles for ground, The tabs also need to touch the other coil wire on the left in the picture.

Does that makes sense?


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Check T-Mans 490 Redo*



imatt88 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Yup, thats the setup I have. No holes in either end of the pickup plate. Very strange.
> 
> ...


T-Man, didn't you say in that post that the copper plates had to touch the axles?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That's my guess.
I wonder if the camera has a macro (close up)setting.?

Here is the 490 link.

I can't remember how the bottom brush was attached. there is a wire on it in one of thepictures.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*found this....*

"On Marx and Lionel trains, you connect one wire to the pickup shoe or a roller. Many Marx trains have a hole on the shoe where the wire can fit. You can just wrap the wire around a pickup roller on a Lionel. The other wire can connect to any convenient metal surface on the train. Usually I attach it to one of the front or rear wheels.

With the wires secured, apply power. Start it at a low setting at first. If the wheels don't turn, give them a little push. You should see some sign of life. Encourage it a bit, and once they turn a little on their own power, turn the crank on the transformer up some more. If you see smoke coming from anywhere other than the smokestack, stop. This indicates there is binding somewhere, and you're burning insulation. If it continues, you'll burn out the motor."

Ian, any progress?


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

I wish my camera was better at taking pics. Sorry guys

I re-read T-Man's 490 post, and it seems the copper wipers are the problem.

The wipers on my 490 don't touch the axle shafts. I will have to play around with them and see what happens.

Thanks for all your input guys!:thumbsup: Without everyones help, I doubt I would have solved this issue

I will keep you updated

Cheers, Ian


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ian,

So re: your "490" post, it sound like the wipers were the problem and you got this "409" (a.k.a. 490) motor running? Hopefully!

I have to say to all of you guys what fun it is to "peek over everyone's shoulders" across the internet like this while trying to understand / diagnose mechanicals problems with the old-school locos. It gets my brain thinking ... sometimes smoke comes out of my ears, but then I start poking around the forum a bit and usually find an old thread from T-Man that tells me how to fix the smoking-ear problem! :laugh:

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

TJ, 

You got that right:thumbsup:


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

*update*

OK guys, I tested my 490 motor for the first time in a while, and for some crazy reason, it runs

Roll with it, baby!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ian,

We all held hands (virtually) across the internet and chanted a prayer to the loco deamons for you, offering our most humble pledge of eternal devotion if they would just let your little loco live ... LIVE, WE ASK ... LIVE!!!

Whatd'ya know ... it worked!!!

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

:thumbsup:


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

*update*

The 400 and 490 in the paint booth with some Alco parts.

Repaire the broken roof on the 490. Looks decent:thumbsup:

Flat Black on the insides, Satin Black on the outsides (soon)


















Keep you posted.......


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Ian, are you pulling air thru the filter, or does it just catch the over-spay?
Nice turntable. Rubbermaid?

Jim


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ian,

That is a nice spray booth setup.

When you're going for different paints on the inside and the outside of the loco shell, what do you do in way of the cab windows and potential overspray around the bottom / rear edges of the shell?

I scratched my head over that a bit, without any obvious answer. If I taped closed the windows from the inside of the cab (to spray the outside), wouldn't I get globs of paint buildup around the window edges when I pulled the tape off?

As for the rest of the shell, I can see that one could paint the outside of the shell with the shell upright "from the top down", sort of, without getting significant paint around the bottom / rear edges. But how does one do that for the inside of the shell (upside down, presumably) without getting overspray on the outside of the shell? Obviously, you can spray the inside first, then flip it ... But it seems to me you're still gonna have some "inside" paint overspray residual buildup around the lower-section outside of the shell. Then spray/cover that with outside paint, I guess.

But is there some better / clever way here?

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Jim,

Yup, old Rubbermaid lazy susans. Hands off painting. Work great:thumbsup:

My spray booth draws into a filter. Works for me

TJ, I just sprayed flat black into the inside of the shells, then masked off the inside, and then sprayed satin black on the outside.

Did that last night. It finally stopped raining, so the humidity was down enough to spray

I'll post another pic of the finished product later.

Cheers, Ian


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

*update*

Here is the painted shells









I plan on doing a little detail work to break up the monochromatic finish.

More to come.........


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nice! Smart of you to tackle two at once ... less prep time, incremental steps, etc.

Thanks for the "tape off inside" thoughts ...

Cheers,

TJ


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