# Non-dereailing metal Marx switches



## muckley (Jan 29, 2014)

I am totally new to model trains, therefore I am on a really steep learning curve, so I will appreciate any help you may be willing to give. I have all O27 gauge. I have set up the old Marx metal switches (have no numbers on any of the switches but they have red tops). I have put in control CENTER RAIL approach tracks using 15 volt accessory power. The switches throw but they do not LOCK in position. I don't know if track power and accessory power are cancelling each other. I don't know if I have them wired correctly or if this is even possible. I am concerned that my wiring may damage solenoids and switch.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

I suspect the switches aren't getting a long enough burst of power to make them lock. When you trigger them with a pushbutton, do they lock?

It doesn't sound like your wiring is putting the switches in any danger. They're very robust. The only thing that harms them is very long bursts of power (30 seconds or more would be problematic).

Your switches are model 1590, by the way, not that anyone ever refers to them as such, because they're never marked.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I belive it can be done. You did insulate the rail right? The switches are wired differently then Lionel. I'm not sure exactly, do you have pictures of your wiring? Someone might be able to tell what's wrong. I read center rail too, wondering why it can't be done on the outside rail? I just don't know enough about them.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This page has the info on Marx Switches

Try comparing your wire technique to the diagram.


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## muckley (Jan 29, 2014)

*non derailing marx switches*

Thanks for the information. The switches work and lock in position very well when using the controller. I'm trying to make them non derailing. I used the center rail for the control rail because Marx is wired different than Lionel. Thinking that would work better. I only used a half rail section for control, with 15 volt accessory power. Not sure having accessory power on the center rail is correct. How long does the control section need to be to throw a switch? Not sure what to try next. Thanks again.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a thread on making Lionel 1121 switches non-derailing. Easy and quick.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=20377&page=6


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Dave, didn't you write how to do this on a blog? A copy and paste t so it's here, please! ? I don't know the rules about linking to stuff like that. That is you, right. It's good info. 
The short section of track should be sufficient to trip the switch. But I think Dave knows better. Maybe try it with a full rail instead of a half?

Google how to make Marx turnouts non derailing.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes, making a Marx switch non-derailing is completely different from a Lionel switch; information on a Lionel 1121 or 1122 won't help with a Marx 1590.

I missed the subtle detail about putting accessory power on the center rail. Yes, that's causing a problem. When the locomotive goes over the track and trips the control section, you're mixing voltages on your hot wire. That's not good for your transformer or track or train, and it results in you sending less voltage than you intend to the switch. You end up sending track voltage MINUS accessory voltage, so your switch is probably only getting 5-6 volts. That's not likely to be enough to get the switch to lock.

So, if you want to make it work and continue to use the center rail for control, put track power on the control rail as well. The switch will work better, though it may not be optimal.

Regarding the blog post about non-derailing Marx switches using accessory power and an outer rail for control, yes, that was me. I'm not certain I can paste it here and maintain my copyright, so I'll post a link: http://dfarq.homeip.net/2013/02/non-derailing-marx-switches/

It's a little more complicated than a Lionel switch, but works pretty well. That said, I am seriously thinking about shortening up my control sections, because at 15 volts, it really doesn't take a very long section of rail at all to trigger, and sustained 15 volts causes the solenoid in the switch to heat up really fast. I'm thinking that insulating 2-4 inches worth of an outer rail is likely to be plenty.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Dave, the Lionel and Marx switches are nearly identical. The three terminals are coil 1, coil 2, and the common that connects to both coils. Tie the common to the "hot" wire from the transformer, and connect the two coils to each of two copper strips that are mounted as shown on the outer rails. What could be simpler than that? You should be able to still wire up the Marx controller.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Servoguy, all I know is that following the commonly available instructions for a Lionel 1121 didn't work when I tried it with a Marx switch. After messing around with a pair of switches with some spare track and a transformer on the floor for a couple of hours, what I wrote in the link above is the solution I came up with that worked.


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## muckley (Jan 29, 2014)

servoguy, I didn't get the "mounted as shown" part. Where do you get the copper strips? I have switches working, I think the way Dave has shown. Still concerned about overheating the switches. Thank You both.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The copper plate switches are in place of the insulated track section. They are just different ways to achieve the same thing! I think you made an insulated track, right?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The motivation for using the copper strips is that they are simple and easy to install and don't require an insulated track section. They can also be installed on curved track.


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## muckley (Jan 29, 2014)

I tried an insulated rail and a copper strip. Both worked on an outside rail. Copper strip is only a 1/2" wide, it powers and locks the switch, but all wheels on the consist power "re-power" the switch. Still think the center rail is the key. Thinking a track switch activated by the locomotive shoe to control the turnout switch would only activate the solenoid once, would be better-safer on the solenoid. May try to fabricate something. Any ideas?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

What do you mean by repower the switch? The wheels re activate the switch? How long is your train? It shouldn't keep it activated for too long as the train has to pass over the spot, reactivating the switch shouldn't be a problem as long as it doesn't stay on for more then say 20 seconds. Center rail should work also? The insulated track and copper strip are switches, no need to try and Fabricate something just have to figure out why it isn't working. Maybe there is some sort of resistor you can add to the outer rail so it only triggers once then needs to reset after 20 seconds?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can use the copper strip on the center rail. It's a good idea because, as you say, the solenoids only get activated by the loco pickup.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Using the center rail would be the simplest method to accomplish it without danger of overheating the switches.

To use an outer rail and protect the solenoid, something along these lines would do the trick:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~jimngage/TRACTRONICS/ARTICLES/SWARTCL/swartcl.htm

I know several people have built such machines, but this is the first such design I've seen that actually included a schematic. I've never succeeded at building one from a description but can follow a schematic. 

I intend to try one but haven't had time to get to it yet. I prefer using an outer rail for control, and this would protect the switches. This design is intended for HO or N scale but would work for us too.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Bob Nelson on the CTT forum has a cap discharge circuit for protecting switch coils. It is quite simple. No transistors.


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## muckley (Jan 29, 2014)

I have only five or six tin plate cars. With the control section on the outer rail, every wheel repowers-reactivates the switch. Made this very crude center rail switch out of some scrap copper, to activate the turnout switch. The loco shoe pushes down the switch, to power the turnout. I may be way over thinking this, but it throws and locks the switch very well. Thanks for everyone's input and help. Every thing I'm using is decades old, that's what interests me. Still hoping to improve my simple layout. Also, I have a couple of pictures I would like to post. I sent them to email but I am not sure how to get them saved from my email to be able to post them here.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Bear in mind that the center rail solution will work for a simple no frills consist, but as soon as you get lighted coaches, whistle tenders, or lighted caboose the multiple trigger problem comes right back.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Muckley, open your picture up & then right click on it and pick save image.
A box will open then click save, your picture will now be in your downloads.

Then come to your posting box where you are typing and click the paper clip that will open an attachment box then click choose file. (you do see a paper clip? if not let me know.)

That will open another box find downloads in it and then click on the picture. Then click open.

It will then be in your attachment box, then click upload. Wait and make sure it uploads.
Now come back to the posting box and click on the paper clip again and click insert all. Or if you have only one picture click on it.
(if you have 5 pictures to put in the post, just do the same thing for each one in the attachment box before you go back to the paper clip the second time to click insert.)

It will now be in your post.

It is not hard, once you get used to it you will see it is easy to post the pictures to a thread.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The post war coaches and cabeese have only a single pickup roller for the lights. This will not trigger the switches. This isn't really a problem anyway as long as the train is not stopped in a position that energizes the switch coil.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

servoguy said:


> The post war coaches and cabeese have only a single pickup roller for the lights.


Well that's not true. My caboose only has one roller but my coaches have two.

For Muckley's application using a mechanical switch on the center rail will trip every time it encounters a roller.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It will activate( trip) but that only sends it in one direction, so it will still work. Just don't go in reverse without a lighted caboose!


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## OldMarxGuy (Jan 22, 2014)

Isn't it easier to jam the switches so that the movable part holds position. The Marx solenoid operated switches that I have, have a slotted part that the holds them in the last switched position fairly reliably. I had to take the 60 year old switches apart, clean and adjust contacts and lube mechanicals to get them to work. Reassemble with screws and nuts to allow future fiddling.


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