# Right out of the box?



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is the question, We have seen here frequently and this thread hopefully will show the newbee the way. I just got a little Lionel set that has been sitting in storage and will make a good candidate for this thread. A postwar 216 AA Minnie and St.Lou from 1964/65. More detail to follow.

All it did was GRUMBLE on the track.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

It has a pulse, I guess. Not flatlined just yet!

Powered "A" plus dummy "A" ?


----------



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

I see a ubiquitous gray flat car in your set. Does it have a number on it? I have a similar looking car with no markings of any kind and have been trying to figure out it's number.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Time to bring it to life.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Strange enough, I didn't dive into the motor. Just a quick response test. I tried a different approach and cleaned the cars and shells. This gave me a second look at what I had and some time to take note on what was broken. My cleaning is a soft brush and liquid had soap. I had some mysterious black marks and rust spots on the inside of some shells. I used a little Goo Gone and green scotch Brite to remove them.

Cleaned










Now the grey flatcar, I took pictures of all the broken areas lon all the other cars. The flat car is clean and sure enough that was the question. I will get a picture, I mention this as a set and I use the term loosely from the 64, 65 era. That is because I have two engine numbers. The dummy is 213 from 1964 and the engine is 216 from 1965, both of the same Minnie and ST Lou.










Some repair required here.

The grey flatcar is the same time period in the Doyle book, it is listed as unnumbered but was made from a 1877 cast. Interesting enough these cars had military items by Payton Plastics and were green in color. That is the mytery of this car. No value was given but having an original load is needed for value.











In the final inspection, the grey car is stamped 1877-3 on the backside near one end under the coupler. Now the original 1877 car is a coraal car with a fence that had some horses and came in a General Set from 1959 and 1960. It was black too. This is also from the Doyles Reference.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

So I discovered that I have two brown versions. So the 1877 came in two versions brown and black but they were heat stamped the brown with 1878. The had wires underneath too. bothe were stock cars that had fences and horses.

Now mine I believe is a 6402 brown with no operating couplers and the grey is a 6401 with one operating coupler. Both common in the 60's the 6401 was plain but the 6402 carried reels. No numbers were present.

Now the box for a 6401 is worth 100 bucks in good condition. Imagine that!


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Just to be clear, for others reading this thread, this lot is Lionel. Tandem has info on the loco, which you've probably seen.

http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_216_diesel.htm

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*A mystery!*

The 216 shell was on the motor. So I am adding the 213 info. TJ, The motor is a two postion with two traction tires. To add to it a horn!!!! Woooo Woooo!:thumbsup:







...


I keep forgetting about the links I go to the books but all the information wasn't there. Another thing the 216 has a rear counter weight.The 216 shell was full of dirt and oil so that indicates long use. Both have no lens in the front or metal guards on the lower nose at the coupler.










I added Lionel in the first post to clarify the post.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*The two position driven motor.*

Last night I gave the motor a cleaning and got more grumble. I reviewed the schematic for a two position motor and figured out how to bench test it. Today it grumbled agin then I noticed the circled red area a short between the two coils. The motor was running against itself. After I separated the wires it ran like a top











This motor as I was saying has two coils, both are connected to the right brush. As shown under the red circle.The left brush is connected to the center rail. The two position e unit feeds the two blue arrows which are the other wired ends from the coil. One is a screw and the other a soldered tab. SO attaching a wire to one of these ends and the left brush will test bench the motor nicely. I gave it a quick road tes and did not have to clean the wheels either. 

Here are some motor pictures.










Now I need to insulate the two wires before I burn the motor out.


Also I would like to see a picture of a factory installed horn unit. I am no sure if this was. SO show it if you have one!!!!!! Please!

I have to run my new engine now.

After pulling five cars, I found the counter weight is a necessity. The tires help too.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> Today it grumbled agin then I noticed the circled red area a short between the two coils. The motor was running against itself. After I separated the wires it ran like a top


Good find! Easy fix! Glad to hear of the diagnosis and prognosis, Doc!

:thumbsup:

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Usually when I find weights in a locomotive, they're there for a pretty good reason.  Nice that you're on the way to getting this one 100%.


----------



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

T-Man said:


> So I discovered that I have two brown versions. So the 1877 came in two versions brown and black but they were heat stamped the brown with 1878. The had wires underneath too. bothe were stock cars that had fences and horses.
> 
> Now mine I believe is a 6402 brown with no operating couplers and the grey is a 6401 with one operating coupler. Both common in the 60's the 6401 was plain but the 6402 carried reels. No numbers were present.


As I mentioned, I've been struggling to ID the gray flat car. I think you and I have the same one. Mine is also marked with the 1877-3 mold number on the bottom, and it has one operating coupler.

This site is a little confusing in explaining the differences. I'm still not 100% sure whether I have a 6401 or 6402...

LIONEL TRAINS FLAT CAR No. 6401

LIONEL TRAINS CABLE REEL CAR No. 6402

Since it says the 6401 "usually came with ... solid non-operating couplers" and the photo of the 6402 suggests an operating coupler (but the text doesn't say), I'm leaning towards mine being a 6402.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Such a common car over a period of years with different loads. It is common, from a marketing point they could change a load or add couplers from what was in stock at the time. My theory anyways. The 6111 and 6121 only varied by loads but this was a 50's version which leads up to debate why a nmber change from 6401 to 6402. Doyle gave the reason of eliminating the operating coupler. That makes sense and over time it may have been reversed. With no stamped number, did it matter? 

I see your point and it is interesting to know. I guess you need the original load to get any more information about a car. 

Maybe there is a different spin from another source.

My other mystery still weaves. The 213 and 216 did not have horns. So I went to my manual and the 200 series were listed under e unit, horn and magnetration. The 229, Minnie and St Lou was the only model with a two position e unit and horn. Same logo again!. It also had one magnetic axle. I checked my engine which has none. One last hope is to id the screws used in a factory install of the horn, I am not sure I have them.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Today I got into body repair and epoxy.


First the screw hole fix. I left the toothpick there. It prevented settling and was easily removed with a sharp blade.









Then I had cracked lower fronts. I forget the name.
I started by cutting a groove and fitting a wire for support.










I still need a lower front replacement piece for the 216. This is better than the N scale fixes I did last year. Sort of the same thing really.

Not even visible from the front.










I have a pair of shells from Stillakid (Thanks again!)and worked those. One was miss aligned on repair so I cut it and backfilled with epoxy. The other one just had a crack and super glue for the fix, Both were fitted with wires.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> I started by cutting a groove and fitting a wire for support.


That's a really clever reinforcement trick, T ... well done!

TJ


----------



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

T-Man said:


> Such a common car over a period of years with different loads. It is common, from a marketing point they could change a load or add couplers from what was in stock at the time. My theory anyways. The 6111 and 6121 only varied by loads but this was a 50's version which leads up to debate why a nmber change from 6401 to 6402. Doyle gave the reason of eliminating the operating coupler. That makes sense and over time it may have been reversed. With no stamped number, did it matter?
> 
> I see your point and it is interesting to know. I guess you need the original load to get any more information about a car.
> 
> Maybe there is a different spin from another source.


I agree, doesn't really matter. I just don't like question marks in my spreadsheet list of train stuff!


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The finished work.

I used a gloss red acrylic , any spots were also touched up.









The Mo was a combination of a real blue and aquamarine acrylics, flat.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good job T-Man, looks like new.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ditto. Nice repair work, T!


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks good EPOXY MAN.:thumbsup:


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Thanks All! I still have one broken front, two missing couplers and a broken caboose roof. I need to lok for parts to continue. Here is the latest group.





























I still have the horn too! That should be next. It didn't work on the first try.

.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Keep chipping away.


----------



## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

T-Man, It's surprising to me that Lionel would be satisfied with the obviously weak design of the lower pilot on these Alco locomotives. Knowing that many of these engines would be played with by children, they had to know that many of the pilots would not remain intact for long. Your reinforcing repair is ingenious and should last for a long time. Good work, sir.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have seen these locos with a metal piece behind the plastic to reinforce them, but I have also seen many without any metal piece.

I like to find stuff like this that doesn't work because it is often easy to fix and when it doesn't work, the price is usually low.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The metal plate was a Lionel fix. Personally I don't think the 50's sets were abused. Being a younger brother to a set owner I seldom got to touch it. The were prized by their young owners. Accidents do happen and I am not sure when the plates came out. I still want to buy an insert and install it. I am slowly getting into the diesel make of these I have more than enough steam.


----------

