# New 4 x 8 layout



## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Hey everyone. Starting a new 4 x 8 layout. This will be my first attempt at a more detailed and more involved layout. Will be uploading some pics. Only thing I'm not sure of right now is to accomplish what i want, I will have to have an 8% grade to get up to the height I need in the distance i have to do it. I set up a mock layout and all of my engines seem to handle the grade with no problem. Was wondering though, will the downhill be harmfull to my engines? Anyways. I will upload a layout soon, but It will be a double loop with a round house and turntable in the middle. Out side track will have a grade upto 4 inches, inside track will run through a tunnel.

I do realize that 8% is not a realistic incline, but the most common engines on the layout will probably be my sons Thomas series. Any input or advice appreciated.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

While 8% is rather steep, the Western Maryland had one that ran 12% so you're in the realm of rare but plausible. The only issue you would really have is cogging in the motors of lower priced locos...the tendency for the motor to slap back and forth in the casing because of the looser tolerances...hard to explain but you'll know it when you see it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow ... 8% ... that's steep! Are you sure there's no way around that, while preserving some fundamental aspects of your intended layout?


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Need a rise of 4 inches to incorporate my tunnel on the inside loop. Takes 8 foot of track to raise 4 inches with a 4% grade. Doesnt leave me enough room for my crossover to the inside track. Not enough for me to be comfortable with it anyways. I test run the 8% grade with a bachmann 0-6-0 and also with a model power dual drive f2 both engine made the climb at all 
speed and stayed consistent. The 0-6-0 did seem to take the downhill smother. Will be running larger steam engines when it is all said and done, aside from my sons thomas engines.

Though about adding 2 more foot to my layout, to make 4 x 10, but I would prefer not to do that do to space constraints


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dustin,

Understood. Two thoughts, though ...

Maybe you can "buy back" some req'd table length by incorporating your rise in a 180-deg turn, i.e. ... A 180-deg turn at 22" radius has pi*22 = 69" of track length. If you add 1' of straight run into and out of this -- with the whole combination inclined -- that's 69+12+12 = 93" of track length. 4" rise / 93" run = 4.3% grade ... much better, perhaps.

If you do go with 8%, make sure that you incorporate an additional section of "transitional zone" between the 8% grade and the flat (horizontal) runs. Otherwise, an abrupt angular transition between sloped and horizontal may lead to some derailments and/or car-to-car decoupling.

Cheers,

TJ


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Crispy Crinkles TJ...now yer makin' me wish I paid attention in Math class...


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hi Dustin, 

I've also been mulling over grades as my planned layout is going to have *lots* of winding mountain "verticality" by using small short trains.

My plan is to cover the whole board with 2 inch foam for the "ground level" and have the lower track *descend* half the overpass clearance while the upper track *ascends* the other half of the needed clearance. 

This would net you *exactly* the *same* overpass clearance using *exactly* the *same* amount of track length...

...with only *HALF* the grade. :thumbsup:

Heck, if your engines already make the 8% grade pulling short lengths of rolling stock you could shorten the approaches even more and free up more space for other track features.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> now yer makin' me wish I paid attention in Math class


:laugh: Stuff like that is drilled into my head ... for better or worse.

Circumference of a full circle = 2 x Pi x radius, where pi = 3.142.

I wonder if Archimedes played with toy trains?!? 

TJ


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

the issue with 8% will be making smooth enough transition more then anything. you can't go from 0 to 8 in one span, you will have to gradually increase it so to prevent engines from scraping plows and cars from decoupling. and that's what mainly will eat that length. digging the other line down however is a viable solution that might make this setup work.


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Appreciate the math, i tried the using my 180 to get upto my 4", I think I may use that for my uphill and go with 8% for my down to save some space, plus that way if I'm bored I have the 8% grade hill to play with. I run my 8% into 2% then to flat, didnt run into any trouble with my coal cars and the ez mate 2 couplers, will do more testing tonight.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> I wonder if Archimedes played with toy trains?!?
> 
> TJ


He played with toy boats.


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Here is my proposed layout, im happy with the double loop. Do you think I should have a double crossover from my outter loop to inner loop. Also what do you think about my staging lanes and turn table. Looking for a better idea that what I have setup so far.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dustin,

Glad to hear you're making design / decisions progress ... 4% up, 8% down, gradual transitions ... all sounds good to me!

Did you really mean to post a zip file? You might rethink that (if you did), as zip files can often give 'net people the heebie-jeebies ... sources of viruses, worms, etc.

(I have no reason to distrust you hear at all ... I'm just cautioning you and others about zip file attachments.)

Cheers,

TJ


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

No I did not mean to attach the zip file.....lol I would also not reccomend ever opening a zip file online. Here is a new attachment as a jpeg


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dustin,

Thumbs up on the jpg (vs. zip). Layout looks nice. One question ... do you have adequate track-to-track clearance between the inner and outer 1/4-turns in the lower-right section of the layout? It seems jammed a bit closer there, as opposed to other regions of the curved dual-track sections. I see you have a short straight piece between the leftmost and rightmost 1/4-turn sections of the INNER loop. If clearance between inner and out loops is too tight, you could easily remove those short straight pieces and buy back a little extra clearance between rails.

I don't mean to question your planning here ... it's hard for me to judge detailed clearances with the jpg ... you might be fully OK on your end.

TJ


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Yeah I did think of that, I may have to take out the straight sections. I am using flex track when I actually lay my track down so I have some flexability, but i do not want anything less than 18 degree curves for the inner loop. As always I will lay track and test run for a week or two before making any permanent track install. Have made that mistake before. Good looking out though, nice to be reminded of possible mistake before its to late!


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

If you can, you may want to add another crossover at the bottom of the loops.
Otherwise, you can't get from one to the other without backing onto the loop.


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Actually I was considering a double crossover on the top side. Anyone have any recomendation on what brand works well.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Here's one: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Shinohara_HO_112_Code_100_Nickle_Silver_6_DC_p/669-112.htm
It seems pricey until you consider the cost of buying 4 separate turnouts, plus the crossover.


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Heres a few pics of my mess or project so far lol


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dustin,

That WS (?) double-cut riser ramp foam is great looking stuff ... bends to any curve / diretion you want, I bet.

Couple of suggestions on my part, if I may ...

1. When you're glueing down the foam, use a few dabs of hot glue to give it a quick grab to your layout board ... it'll save you the effort/time of using weights to hold things in place while your main adhesive dries.

2. Do me a favor and put an electrical outlet cover plate on that wall outlet box. I'd hate to see a piece of metal fly it's way in there and cause a short or worse. And take caution with the outlet strip tucked behind the stud, too. (Sorry ... the "ever concerned Dad" in me can't help but notice things like this.)

Cheers,

TJ


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Just built this room on. Outlet and Powerstrip only temporary. Will be finishing wall next weekend if things go as planed. As always,good lookin out though. As far as the flexable riser stuff. Its awsome, Can be bent as far as 10 degree's. Its working out great so far


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

dustinward03 said:


> Just built this room on. Outlet and Powerstrip only temporary. Will be finishing wall next weekend if things go as planed. As always,good lookin out though. As far as the flexable riser stuff. Its awsome, Can be bent as far as 10 degree's. Its working out great so far


I can give you some tips if you want.
TJ, feel free to copy my hookups.

As my RR empire expanded I found the need to run a few more lines.
Since I don't know much about electric, my buddy who is a trash collector and dabbles with electric came over to help me run some new lines.
Ask me if you need some tips.

A picture of the finished work in my dungeon,









Nice and neat? We even added a drop light holder.:laugh::thumbsup:


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Ed, please tell me those are low voltage lines and not 110V


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am not sure that Ed knows the difference.

I would suggest a run to the dollar store for some plastic cable ties. 
It may help.

Thanks for that picture it is inspirational.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> I would suggest a run to the dollar store for some plastic cable ties.
> It may help.


And some fire extinguishers while you're at it, too!


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## Rocky Mountian (May 17, 2010)

Hey Ed the looks like my make shift track layout.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

big ed said:


> I can give you some tips if you want.
> TJ, feel free to copy my hookups.
> 
> As my RR empire expanded I found the need to run a few more lines.
> ...


That is just so wrong in so many ways!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

That's all right, Ed. They don't realize it's all only 17 volts AC. Ed's house runs off an AF 15B transformer sitting on a concrete block, under a plastic garbage can, in the back yard!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Reckers said:


> That's all right, Ed. They don't realize it's all only 17 volts AC. Ed's house runs off an AF 15B transformer sitting on a concrete block, under a plastic garbage can, in the back yard!



In the back yard? I got mine in the front yard!


I got the ZW in the back yard so no crooks see it.:laugh:


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Got some plaster cloth started and the rest of my hill done.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

i highly suggest to put the board on some sort of legs before you get to far. working on the floor will get old fAst. otherwise stuff is going to break off when you lif the (by that time considerably heavier) board as it will inevitably flex.

as the mater of fact solid foundation is the first thing to do, not lay rails


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I guess it's just everyone's pictures making the grade look steep to me?

I agree with Tank, if anything get a couple a saw horses and get the table off the floor and then build it a frame. 

Is that how big the finished layout is going to be?


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

framework is being built as we speak. Yes my layout will be 4 x 8. All I have room for  . For the moment at least. Hill and plaster is all I am doing before setting the board onto its permanent location.


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

ok making some progress. Have my layout up on a temporary base for now, awaiting completion of my room to make it permanent. Went ahead and layed some temp track to test my layout. My bachmann 0-6-0 can only pull 2 or 3 cars up the 8% grade, which was expected. My model power all wheel drive f2 diesel pulled 8 cars with a little slippage. Id have to say not to bad for cheaper engines. The atlas flex track is amazing so far. Fewer track connections, much easier and faster install. Trains run flawlessly around the track. Waiting to try my bachmann spectrum diesel and looking for to buying a new steam engine for the job. Looking to spend $200 or so on a decent steam engine. Something that will hopefully handle my 8% grade.


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

*New Layout and Old Layout*

Just bought a layout that was retired from a fair ground layout. So here are some pics of that as well as my current layout project. Looking for some ideas on being able to have one layout over top of the other, yet connect the two layouts somehow.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I guess you don't have the room to connect them side to side?


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

Not without getting divorced lol It is possible but not preferable to connect them in a L shape in the corner of the room. Which I would like, but the wife doesnt want it to take up that much of the new play (train) room


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

If you can put them side by side, and can only have one (suspended) over the other, you could try to connect tracks via a helix with 2 or 3 full circles. Gimmicky, perhaps, but it might suit your needs.

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It's not going to be easy. And you will spend a few bucks too.
Yours will need to be a little higher then this one to work on the bottom section.

An L would be much better!


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## dustinward03 (May 1, 2010)

I like the helix idea for a couple reasons. One it would efficiently connect both tracks together (this is fun for me and my son so not worried so much about being realistic). Also the helix creates a decent amount of track space. One of the reasons I want both tracks connected into a mega loop is to make room for a lot of rolling stock. My double loop 4 x 8 can only support 32 cars depending on what cars are used.


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