# Mantua Goat Switcher to DCC help



## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Howdy all,

I just ordered a little HO Mantua Goat Switcher, in the box, Philadelphia & Reading) and would like to convert it to DCC. Any guidance on this? I'd like to do it myself, as I've been quoted $200-250 for the conversion. I'd like to put a smoke generator in it as well. Any advice, suggestions?
Thanks!


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Smoke unit will take some work, as the boiler weight takes up all the room in the smokebox. The reason they want 2 1/2 Bennies is because the motor in Mantua steam model of any kind is that it is grounded to the frame. It will have to be completely isolated from the frame to work. 

This actually is not that difficult. Make a thin styrene or plastic shield to put between the motor and frame, thin to keep from greatly affecting the alignment of the gears. Then install a nylon, delrin or plastic screw in place of the steel one. Ground the chip to the frame with a small brass screw drilled into the frame--brass for ease of soldering. Install from there ...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Prayer. It will take a lot of work, and modification to the original loco. As an amateur, $200-$250 would be money well spent for this conversion. Unless you're willing to risk a total loss of the locomotive, that is.

Get some easier conversions (larger, newer models) and cut your teeth on those before attempting something like this.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Interesting viewpoints: one says it would be relatively easy, the other that it is very difficult.
I appreciate both!

However...
Why would I risk destroying the train? Is it that complicated? Delicate? 
I have no idea how DCC is retrofitted, but if there was a step by step, I think I could do it. I did upgrade my Macbook Pro with maxed out memory, and replaced the DVD drive with a second hardrive following step by step instructions. Never done that before and everything went fine. Not saying you're wrong about being too much for me, just wondering...
Now, the issue is: are there step by step instructions!
I've seen N Scale trains with smoke generators that look great. I'm thinking if they can fit one in a tiny thing like that, I should be able to do it to this one. What do you think?
PS
What kind of controller would this use? Any regular DC controller? Maybe I'll run it on its own separate track as a little mountain train or something, but then it isn't narrow gauge.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

A couple of short strips of 3M electrical tape in the motor well will suffice for electrical isolation and keep it thin along with the Derin screw Shay mentioned.

The ESU Loksound or Lokpilot 5.0 Micro at 21mm x 10mm should be small enough to fit. I would be more worried about enough room for stuffing the wire into the model. This is a DIY challenge that you won't find in a book anywhere, that much is certain.

I have a Loksound 5.0 Micro in a Bemo ABe 4/4 III and believe me, it is tiny.

Good luck.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> A couple of short strips of 3M electrical tape in the motor well will suffice for electrical isolation and keep it thin along with the Derin screw Shay mentioned.
> 
> The ESU Loksound or Lokpilot 5.0 Micro at 21mm x 10mm should be small enough to fit. I would be more worried about enough room for stuffing the wire into the model. This is a DIY challenge that you won't find in a book anywhere, that much is certain.
> 
> ...


That's great! Thank you! Gathering as much info as possible.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

The Mantua motors merely need a piece of heat shrink tubing on the "ground" side brush spring, IMHO.


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

There are a few things you need to know before adding dcc to a locomotive that could make a lot of difference in it such as are there reliable power pick up points on the locomotive, tender, or both. What is the stalled amp draw on the motor. If it’s too high you’ll burn up the decoder so get a decoder rated for it. Ho scale decoders are usually 1 amp to 1.5 amp. I would not suggest sound for a first install since it adds more wiring and speaker mounting and is a little less straightforward. Since this is probably only picking up power from the locomotive I would suggest a keep alive capacitor bank so you’re not constantly having stopping issues. The steps are

Step 1: isolate the motor

Step 2: figure out where the positive is and the negative is on the frame of the loco

Step 3: replace the light bulb with an LED (not necessary but you’ll be thankful of the extra work by not replacing bulbs) 

step 4: wire the decoder per the manufacturers instructions (I use digitrax)

step 5: test run and pray the magic smoke doesn’t come out. (It shouldn’t if wired correctly)

hope this helps


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

My locomotive should be here by Wednesday, so once I have it, I will post pics and look into what you said. I will have to see how to take the shell off etc. and then check the wires... With the insides exposed, I will take pictures of that and se what y'all say.

Again, thank you!

I really like that little locomotive; just looks unique!


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Commander Zarkon said:


> Interesting viewpoints: one says it would be relatively easy, the other that it is very difficult.
> I appreciate both!
> 
> However...
> ...


I've put them in several 50+ year old models, it just takes patience and some electrical aptitude, nothing out of the ordinary for normal DCC. Any thing beyond that is a test of your creativity and finesse and space available. It looks like the motor is tucked into the tender, then runs thru a shaft to the gearbox in the locomotive. That would make it an older one, 60+ years old at least. I would be content getting DCC into it as the rest may prove beyond the scope of space available. You'll definitely want a high amp decoder if you keep the original motor.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Just a thought. When you think you’ve got it ready for a decoder… before putting in the decoder you desire (i.e. sound decoder), wire in a cheap digitrax and test it. If you did miss something a fried cheapy is better than a fried tsunami. 
Believe it or not, I’ve had 8 pin “DCC Ready” locos fry decoders upon start up. I’ve grown to assume everything will fry a decoder until they show me otherwise. I miss the days where the worst one could expect is having to pluck rice out of the gearbox.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Commander Zarkon

Have you done this sort of work before? If not, might I suggest you begin with a larger locomotive, get some practice cutting, soldering, tiny wires, removing headlights, installing LED's, routing wires.

Also, keep track of the hours you spend making the modifications, you'll better understand the pricing they quoted 
I have converted several locos, and would not attempt the goat.

You can find a Mantua 4-6-2 pretty cheap.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Dennis461 said:


> Commander Zarkon
> 
> Have you done this sort of work before? If not, might I suggest you begin with a larger locomotive, get some practice cutting, soldering, tiny wires, removing headlights, installing LED's, routing wires.
> 
> ...



Never done this before, though I have done plenty of model building with tiny parts etc. The wiring routing and LEDs are not an issue, it's knowing how to install a DCC conversion and smoke unit because I don't know how they work or connect up. 
I was a propmaster for theater back in the late 90s. One of the plays required a hula doll that hula'd and had glowing nipples. So I went and got a Pocahontas doll from a toy store and built a small box for her to stand on, and to hold a small electric motor, 9V battery, and on/off switch. I then created a wire loop with a section that intersected her at the waist and attached "grass" to make the skirt. I rigged the motor to make the skirt wiggle like she was dancing. I also rigged a pair of flashing red LEDs into her chest for the glowing/flashing nipples!
SO I am fine with small parts and making things, its the DCC that I am ignorant about. Electrics are OK in so far as the above: positive, negative, on/off.

I will do more searching, and when the goat gets here I will post pics and see what y'all have to say. I'm a visual learner so I have to see things to work them out, especially having never seen it before. That goat seems small, but I don;t know how small.

I don't understand why they aren't available now in DCC. Seems like a neat little engine!


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

I'd forget about the smoke generator.
Getting dcc into that thing (with lights, as well) is gonna be a "big enough job" as it is.

I WOULD NOT pay $200-250 to have dcc installed.
Not worth it!


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Commander Zarkon said:


> Never done this before, though I have done plenty of model building with tiny parts etc. The wiring routing and LEDs are not an issue, it's knowing how to install a DCC conversion and smoke unit because I don't know how they work or connect up.
> I was a propmaster for theater back in the late 90s. One of the plays required a hula doll that hula'd and had glowing nipples. So I went and got a Pocahontas doll from a toy store and built a small box for her to stand on, and to hold a small electric motor, 9V battery, and on/off switch. I then created a wire loop with a section that intersected her at the waist and attached "grass" to make the skirt. I rigged the motor to make the skirt wiggle like she was dancing. I also rigged a pair of flashing red LEDs into her chest for the glowing/flashing nipples!
> SO I am fine with small parts and making things, its the DCC that I am ignorant about. Electrics are OK in so far as the above: positive, negative, on/off.
> 
> ...


I'm sure Irene Bedard (voice of Disney's Pocahontas) appreciates the effort.

As for a DCC model, they were put out by Model Power under the 'Mantua Classics' name. I'm pretty sure they came with can motors, flywheels and were DCC ready. My Mantua Classics 2-6-6-2 is set up like that.









The one you have appears to be one of the ones from before 1954. Though it's not likely, it could have a 6 volt motor, something that was a part of some HO models back yonder.

from before 1954


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

J.Albert1949 said:


> I'd forget about the smoke generator.
> Getting dcc into that thing (with lights, as well) is gonna be a "big enough job" as it is.
> 
> I WOULD NOT pay $200-250 to have dcc installed.
> Not worth it!


Yeah I don't think I want to dish out $200 for that. Seems like I can do it if I take my time. I have seen smoke generators put on N scale engines, so maybe that size may work. I will decide once I have the negine in hand and able to make a better assessment.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

shaygetz said:


> I'm sure Irene Bedard (voice of Disney's Pocahontas) appreciates the effort.
> 
> As for a DCC model, they were put out by Model Power under the 'Mantua Classics' name. I'm pretty sure they came with can motors, flywheels and were DCC ready. My Mantua Classics 2-6-6-2 is set up like that.
> View attachment 569531
> ...



The one I ordered says it is still sealed in box and wrapped in original cellophane. Item number:194385659661. Which I guess really doesn't mean anything. I figure I should know more once it gets here, which is supposed to be this coming Tuesday. I really like how that little engine looks. If I can indeed convert it to DCC without much problem or expense, I'll probably get a couple more.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Some pictures of the box for my goat. Can anyone tell anything from this information?


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Commander Zarkon said:


> The one I ordered says it is still sealed in box and wrapped in original cellophane. Item number:194385659661. Which I guess really doesn't mean anything. I figure I should know more once it gets here, which is supposed to be this coming Tuesday. I really like how that little engine looks. If I can indeed convert it to DCC without much problem or expense, I'll probably get a couple more.


I stand corrected, what I thought was a shaft was actually a deck plate, something the fireman would walk on between the engine and tender. That model you have should be fairly easy to convert, just take your time and plan your steps. I've never been fond of smoke units, they will leave an oily residue on your track.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

shaygetz said:


> I stand corrected, what I thought was a shaft was actually a deck plate, something the fireman would walk on between the engine and tender. That model you have should be fairly easy to convert, just take your time and plan your steps. I've never been fond of smoke units, they will leave an oily residue on your track.


That's good to hear!
Maybe I'll mount a mini hula dancer on over the cab!
Looking forward to getting my goat!


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Just curious, but how many amps does an HO or N-scale smoke unit draw? And would a normal decoder be able to supply these amps on a particular connection, so the smoke unit can be turned on or off? Or would the smoke unit have to be wired to constant track power, and therefore always "on"???


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Mixed Freight said:


> Just curious, but how many amps does an HO or N-scale smoke unit draw? And would a normal decoder be able to supply these amps on a particular connection, so the smoke unit can be turned on or off? Or would the smoke unit have to be wired to constant track power, and therefore always "on"???


Good question!
Anyone?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Can you get a small enough relay if that's the case?


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

That’s a newer version of that model so I would think it would have at least a reasonable motor. Like I previously mentioned you’re going to want to consider either extra pick up points for current or a keep alive or both. I doubt that locomotive has room enough for a flywheel in it let alone a smoke unit in there even if it was n scale would be tight and if it’s n scale it probably wouldn’t put out much for smoke. If you pay attention to most locomotives in modern times they don’t smoke much till they’re sanding flues then the smoke really comes out. If a locomotive was really smoking the way I understand it is the fireman wasn’t firing the locomotive properly. I could be wrong but it could make for an interesting bit of info to look up


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> Can you get a small enough relay if that's the case?


Good question!


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Jscullans said:


> That’s a newer version of that model so I would think it would have at least a reasonable motor. Like I previously mentioned you’re going to want to consider either extra pick up points for current or a keep alive or both. I doubt that locomotive has room enough for a flywheel in it let alone a smoke unit in there even if it was n scale would be tight and if it’s n scale it probably wouldn’t put out much for smoke. If you pay attention to most locomotives in modern times they don’t smoke much till they’re sanding flues then the smoke really comes out. If a locomotive was really smoking the way I understand it is the fireman wasn’t firing the locomotive properly. I could be wrong but it could make for an interesting bit of info to look up


Yeah I have to actually see it in person to decide.
The smoke thing is interesting because many times I have seen steam locos and they are putting out little to no smoke. Sometimes white steaks md sometimes black smoke.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*CZ*.
'Tis a beautiful engine...But why not save it for a later project ?..You have a huge undertaking ahead of you as it is. Why not get that done and buy an engine already with DCC/Sound on board (maybe comes W/smoke) to test each of your track sections you've laid. Ebay has hundreds; Bachmann, Proto, Atlas, Athearn, et al..
I'd say do all that first..Then, later on experience decoder installation during some down time..
Don't forget, too; one of the more difficult aspects of putting a decoder in it will be the mounting of a speaker in tender...You'll have to drill holes in its floor for a grill and add a baffle around it; leave alone just mounting it...Then you have to fit the decoder in there, or engine, as well, and do all sorts of wiring..
Build your RR, sir ! 🛤🌵


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

telltale said:


> *CZ*.
> 'Tis a beautiful engine...But why not save it for a later project ?..You have a huge undertaking ahead of you as it is. Why not get that done and buy an engine already with DCC/Sound on board (maybe comes W/smoke) to test each of your track sections you've laid. Ebay has hundreds; Bachmann, Proto, Atlas, Athearn, et al..
> I'd say do all that first..Then, later on experience decoder installation during some down time..
> Don't forget, too; one of the more difficult aspects of putting a decoder in it will be the mounting of a speaker in tender...You'll have to drill holes in its floor for a grill and add a baffle around it; leave alone just mounting it...Then you have to fit the decoder in there, or engine, as well, and do all sorts of wiring..
> Build your RR, sir ! 🛤🌵


Sir, you are correct!
Let me clarify-which I should have earlier-that my plan is just that: focus on building this layout first. I already have a dcc locomotive ready to test the track. My idea was to gather information now: because my mind works like that and because that way I can learn early.
But yes, I agree with and appreciate your advice. Thank you!


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Got it!
Now, I welcome every advice and option on making this DCC and putting in smoke!
I won’t even start though until after I get at least the first half of my layout done.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Just got this book.
Not sure how useful it will be because I haven’t read through it.
Once I get my layout set up I will look into turning the little goat into a dcc. Worse comes to worse though, I’ll put the goat on a separate track that’s just DC, going through a mountain or something either pulling passenger cars or coal cars from a line.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

CZ - - - that is a good book and will have some good info for your project.


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

That’s got an open frame motor. I would suggest changing that to a can motor or a coreless motor. You’re gonna be using up an awful lot of decoder amperage just powering that motor if it doesn’t smoke it


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Commander Zarkon said:


> Just got this book.
> Not sure how useful it will be because I haven’t read through it.
> Once I get my layout set up I will look into turning the little goat into a dcc. Worse comes to worse though, _I’ll put the goat on a separate track that’s just DC_, going through a mountain or something either pulling passenger cars or coal cars from a line.


I received a wonderful (and expensive) DCC Märklin AC locomotive from my son for Christmas last year. Unfortunately for me, I don't run AC Märklin and it was too late to return it. My son didn't know anything about Märklin equipment or that it was AC only.

I thought about installing a separate AC only track near Litzirüti, but decided there just wasn't enough room to do it right, to run this locomotive. Now it sits in the historical district of Michaelstadt as a display across the tracks from the Hofbahnhaus.

Maybe on my next layout...


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