# Help! Lionel 2035 engine & 6466w tender not running well...



## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

I inherited a Lionel train set from family and would like to get it running before Xmas so they can all enjoy it. When I first set this up last year, I had minimal problems and this was with a normal oval train set up. Now, I added two 027 turnout switches and it appears I have some issues since I have added that. I'm using a rebuilt 1033 transformer to power this track. I oiled and grease the engine and re-soldered the tender wires so the whistle works. The bizarre thing is that the train runs great on its own without the tender and you can actually control the speed with the "orange" knob on transformer. General that orange switch controls the whistle when turned right and the e-unit when turned left. I'm just baffled because before I incorporated those switches, I could run the engine, tender and as many cars as I wanted. 

Has anybody has these kind of problems? Bare with me as i'm still very new to this, however i'm getting frusturated.

Thanks in advance!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Can you describe the symptoms / problems in more specific detail?

Is it diminished power when the train is far away from where your transformer power leads attach to the track?

Is it unintended toggle of the e-unit direction when the loco traverses over a switch?

Are the switches manual or powered?

Something else?

TJ


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

TJ,

The switches are powered and I believe they need work as well. I re-wired the control box for those switches too and the red/green light works, however the switch only moves in one direction easily. The other direction sticks. I'm guess you can lube that some how. That's another problem to get into. Now, the train runs fine on the straight aways so there is no diminished power far from the transformer, but when it hits those 027 turns, it seems to work hard and then finally stops before it hits the next straight away. You can here the power buzzing when it does this. If I take off the tender, it runs like a gem, but that orange knob works differently.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unintended toggle" over the switches.

Thanks for checking in.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cy131 said:


> I inherited a Lionel train set from family and would like to get it running before Xmas so they can all enjoy it. When I first set this up last year, I had minimal problems and this was with a normal oval train set up. Now, I added two 027 turnout switches and it appears I have some issues since I have added that. I'm using a rebuilt 1033 transformer to power this track. I oiled and grease the engine and re-soldered the tender wires so the whistle works. The bizarre thing is that the train runs great on its own without the tender and you can actually control the speed with the "orange" knob on transformer. General that orange switch controls the whistle when turned right and the e-unit when turned left. I'm just baffled because before I incorporated those switches, I could run the engine, tender and as many cars as I wanted.
> 
> Has anybody has these kind of problems? Bare with me as i'm still very new to this, however i'm getting frusturated.
> 
> Thanks in advance!





cy131 said:


> TJ,
> 
> The switches are powered and I believe they need work as well. I re-wired the control box for those switches too and the red/green light works, however the switch only moves in one direction easily. The other direction sticks. I'm guess you can lube that some how. That's another problem to get into. Now, the train runs fine on the straight aways so there is no diminished power far from the transformer, but when it hits those 027 turns, it seems to work hard and then finally stops before it hits the next straight away. You can here the power buzzing when it does this. If I take off the tender, it runs like a gem, but that orange knob works differently.
> 
> ...


I kind of think you may have a wire reattached wrong somewhere.

What switches are they?

Who "rebuilt" the transformer? Someone who is in the business of working on them?


Process of elimination.........take the switches off and see if they run OK on the oval.
Do you know what an insulated pin is for the track?
Are all the pins in the track?
Did you happen to add some track too?
Do you have an automotive test light?
Do you have a multimeter to test with?

Somehow I think you have a wire crossed, tell us what you have and we should be able to give you links with pictures of where the wires are supposed to be.

If you can't find a part # take some pictures of the switches and controller then we will know what you have.

When you say when it hits the O/27 turns, do you mean the curves or the switches?


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

big ed said:


> I kind of think you may have a wire reattached wrong somewhere.
> 
> What switches are they?
> 
> ...


The switches are 1122 remote control switches. They seem to stick.
This whole set was sitting in an attic for sometime. It's amazing that any of it works.

The guy who rebuilt the transformer does this as hobby and has a huge table set up at our local train shows here. He definitely knows what he is doing because he figured out why the whistle what's working and his rebuilt transformer fixed that issue.

An insulated pin I assume is those steel pins that connect the track?

The only thing I added was those remote switches.

I do not have an automotive test light or multimeter.

I will try to post some pics later on when I get in the basement.

The 027 turns I meant to say "curves". Sorry, my terminology is lacking in 
the model train department, lol!

Thanks


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cy131 said:


> The switches are 1122 remote control switches. They seem to stick.
> This whole set was sitting in an attic for sometime. It's amazing that any of it works.
> 
> The guy who rebuilt the transformer does this as hobby and has a huge table set up at our local train shows here. He definitely knows what he is doing because he figured out why the whistle what's working and his rebuilt transformer fixed that issue.
> ...


No problem with the terminology I just wanted to clarify that.

These are your switches, is this the controller you have too?










Some of the connecting pins are not metal but insulated (plastic).

Are there any plastic ones or are they all metal. You can see the difference easily.

Set the switches to one way and take off the power wires to them, does the train go around OK with out the power to the switches?


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

big ed said:


> No problem with the terminology I just wanted to clarify that.
> 
> These are your switches, is this the controller you have too?
> 
> ...


I'll be back in a couple of hours. Need to go out to pick up Xmas stuff. Yes, those are the switches and the controller. I rewired the controller with the same wire (3 wires) I got at a train show. The original wiring was disintegrated. The pins are 100% metal on the entire set. No plastic ones. Be back in a bit.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cy131 said:


> I'll be back in a couple of hours. Need to go out to pick up Xmas stuff. Yes, those are the switches and the controller. I rewired the controller with the same wire (3 wires) I got at a train show. The original wiring was disintegrated. The pins are 100% metal on the entire set. No plastic ones. Be back in a bit.



OK your a little late for Black Friday shopping.

Later


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

big ed said:


> OK your a little late for Black Friday shopping.
> 
> Later


Back already, lol! It was only Walmart for food and some white glitter felt for my other train project, but that's for the HO train under the tree . It's a bit easier to deal with than this O gauge stuff


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

Here is a pic of my transformer (rebuilt one on left and old one on right).

My current switch set up with the controller and lastly, the engine without
the tender.

I'm going to remove the switches and run without them to see if the train runs
properly. That can center in on our problem if they're the culprit.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is part of the problem. There are two types of 1122 switches. You have one of each type shown in the picture. Big Ed, you have two of the early types shown in your picture, and these switches do not need any insulating pins. The rail for the non-derail feature is separated from a short length of rail that connects to the adjoining track section. You can see a cut in the long curved rail and in the long straight rail. cy131, you have a early 1122 switch with cut rails and a later type without the cut rails. Now to get the later type to work, you have to put insulating pins into the short inner rails. 

The switch on the left in your picture has the cut rails and does not need insulating pins. The switch on the right needs insulating pins.

The 1033 transformer control handle that controls speed is the one on the right. The one on the left controls the whistle and direction. The two handles are interchangeable and sometimes are interchanged. You cannot possibly control the speed of the train with the left handle.


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

servoguy said:


> Here is part of the problem. There are two types of 1122 switches. You have one of each type shown in the picture. Big Ed, you have two of the early types shown in your picture, and these switches do not need any insulating pins. The rail for the non-derail feature is separated from a short length of rail that connects to the adjoining track section. You can see a cut in the long curved rail and in the long straight rail. cy131, you have a early 1122 switch with cut rails and a later type without the cut rails. Now to get the later type to work, you have to put insulating pins into the short inner rails.
> 
> The switch on the left in your picture has the cut rails and does not need insulating pins. The switch on the right needs insulating pins.
> 
> The 1033 transformer control handle that controls speed is the one on the right. The one on the left controls the whistle and direction. The two handles are interchangeable and sometimes are interchanged. You cannot possibly control the speed of the train with the left handle.


I'm telling you it's bizarre because when I disconnect the tender, that orange handle ( whistle/direction) actually speeds up the train when you turn it in the whistle direction. The other side still does diection. When it's hooked up to the tender, then it works correctly. The right handle (black) has always controlled the speed, only in this instance the orange almost acts like its a turbo when turned in the whistle direction. Totally confused here scratching my head. If i could take a video I would.

When you say insulating pins, do you mean the metal or plastic?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Insulating pins are plastic. Metal pins conduct electricity.

You whistle control is working normally. The control has two positions: The first position adds some DC voltage to the normal AC to pull in the whistle relay. The relay is only sensitive to DC or AC at a lower frequency than the normal 60 Hz. If you examine the relay, you will see a copper slug in it that slows it down. This copper slug is not installed in a normal relay. In the second position, the AC voltage is increased and the DC voltage is decreased. The increase in the AC voltage is there to provide the additional power for the whistle motor. Without the tender, the engine speed will increase significantly when the whistle control is operated. 

Get some insulating pins and install them in the short rails of your switches that do not have the cut outer rails. This should eliminate a bunch of problems.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I second Servoguy's description of what the whistle control on the transformer is doing. Without the tender, toggling the handle adds a power boost to the loco ... exactly what you're seeing on the track.

Cy, follow the insulated pin advice, and report back on your findings.

Cheers,

TJ


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

Servoguy, thanks a million for that explanation, it totally makes sense now why that speed increase happens without the tender. Thank all of you (TJ & Big Ed) for your help and care. Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cy131 said:


> Servoguy, thanks a million for that explanation, it totally makes sense now why that speed increase happens without the tender. Thank all of you (TJ & Big Ed) for your help and care. Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving!


In your second picture the track is not connected?

In the third picture the track is not connected tight enough.

It helps a lot to have the track hooked up...nice and tight.


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## cy131 (Feb 26, 2011)

big ed said:


> In your second picture the track is not connected?
> 
> In the third picture the track is not connected tight enough.
> 
> It helps a lot to have the track hooked up...nice and tight.


Ed, my outer line, is 100% connected, but you're right, the inner line is not fully complete. I think with insulators and the lines connectd, hopefully ill have some luck. I will report back after some testing. Remember, I'm an electrical retard, lol!


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

servoguy said:


> Here is part of the problem. There are two types of 1122 switches. You have one of each type shown in the picture. Big Ed, you have two of the early types shown in your picture, and these switches do not need any insulating pins. The rail for the non-derail feature is separated from a short length of rail that connects to the adjoining track section. You can see a cut in the long curved rail and in the long straight rail. cy131, you have a early 1122 switch with cut rails and a later type without the cut rails. Now to get the later type to work, you have to put insulating pins into the short inner rails.
> 
> The switch on the left in your picture has the cut rails and does not need insulating pins. The switch on the right needs insulating pins.



Servoguy--how can you tell those switches are different and that one kind needs insulating pins and the other doesn't? They look the same to me. I ask because I have a ton of 1122 switches and they are still something of a mystery to me. I haven't figured out how to get consistently good performance out of them yet.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Look carefully at the second picture that Cy posted. You will see a cut in each of the long (outside) rails of the left switch. If you have these cuts in the rails of your switches, you have the early type of switch, and you don't need insulating pins. If you don't have the cuts, you need insulating pins in the two inside short rails.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a picture on eBay that shows the proper location of the plastic pins:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-Trai..._RR_Trains&hash=item2569a723bd#ht_2819wt_1270

These switches are the late type without the cuts in the outer rails.

BB


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is another picture that clearly shows a switch with the cuts in the rails:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-1122...l_RR_Trains&hash=item415f948157#ht_500wt_1054

Only the switch on the near left has the cuts.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the tip--looks like I have 6 of one kind and 6 of the other.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you turn the switches upside down, you will see very obvious differences. The older switches have more places where the outer rails are crimped.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a good thread by Bob Nelson on how to modify 1122 switches so that they operate from a constant voltage source:

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/173684.aspx?PageIndex=1


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

I am guessing the 5121/5122 switches need insulator pins too?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is the thread on how to restore 1122 switches. TJ, you might want to sticky this thread.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=4142


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

There is a mistake in my post reference above. I assumed that the older switches were the newer, and vice versa. The newer ones need insulating pins.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The 5121/5122 switches need insulating pins.


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