# Benchwork done, need to lay some track. Questions first!



## xbartx (4 mo ago)

I would like some opinions or advice in regards to the layout that I have started. It is a small 4’x8’ HOn3 layout and I have the bench work mostly done. 










Questions:
1: On my switches, the frog and the frog rails are isolated from the rest of the switch, I'm thinking that I just need to wire the frog rails for changing polarity when the switch is thrown. Does that sound right?







2: Besides any rail that is isolated with plastic rail joiners, can I solder most of it together, do I need any rail left unsoldered for expansion and contraction?​
3: Glue or nail the cork track bed down?​​4: How many power feeds are suggested on a layout having about 50 ft of track?​​5: I have a never used 20+ year old Digitrax DCC system that I was planning using for this layout, is there anything to be aware of, going this route.​
-Brad


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Watch this vid for wiring powered (electrified) frog turnouts.





I doubt expansion joints would be needed for functional reasons. However you could physically gap the rails in a way that mimics a prototypical expansion joint. It looks better and does the same thing as the more common butt cut modelers do. If temperatures in your area swing 0 to 100F for instance, the expansion of the rail is not all that much. IIRC about 1/16th or less.









The turntable will need to be treated as a reversing loop, with polarity changing capability. Either automatic or manual.

I’d glue the roadbed with silicone caulk. That acts as both adhesive and sound absorber.

Many modelers like to have feeders somewhere on all sides of frogs, and not rely on the mechanical frog connection for conductivity.

I’m not versed with Digitrax.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Yes, a DPDT (double pole, double throw) toggle switch, mounted on the fascia, should suffice.

If this is DCC, then an auto-reverser would be helpful and prevent any 'oopsie' that will happen when you forget.

If your space is inside a treated-air building, you won't need to worry about expansion. If in a largely uncontrolled space, humidity in a wooden framed benchwork will contribute about five or six times as much 'expansion' or 'contraction' as heat is likely to do...or cool. Nickel silver rail expands only 1/4" for every continuous rail running 100' in length for every 30 deg rise in temperature. An increase of only 20% humidity will easily match that and more across the grain, and that is where rails are pulled apart that cross the grain. If it loses that much humidity, it tends to force the ends together, and buckling eventually ensues. If the tracks are on plywood, then it doesn't matter about temp OR humidity.

I am using a 20-year old Super Empire Builder that still works like a Toyota.


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

OilValleyRy said:


> Watch this vid for wiring powered (electrified) frog turnouts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That video was helpful, Thanks!
How does the changing of polarity work with DCC? Does the track change polarity? If so wouldn't that be an issue for any other engines on the track?


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

mesenteria said:


> If this is DCC, then an auto-reverser would be helpful and prevent any 'oopsie' that will happen when you forget.


I'll have to look into these.



mesenteria said:


> Nickel silver rail expands only 1/4" for every continuous rail running 100' in length for every 30 deg rise in temperature. An increase of only 20% humidity will easily match that and more across the grain, and that is where rails are pulled apart that cross the grain. If it loses that much humidity, it tends to force the ends together, and buckling eventually ensues. If the tracks are on plywood, then it doesn't matter about temp OR humidity.


It sounds like I should not have to worry about expansion and yes the track will be on plywood.



mesenteria said:


> I am using a 20-year old Super Empire Builder that still works like a Toyota.


Good to know! That is the same system that I have.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

The wiring of turnouts, and gapping the rails so they are electrically isolated, and that isolated section (the turnout) changing polarity is to avoid such issues with shorting out the system. Note in the video how the red & green rail indications change, but that is just for the isolated section. Adjacent track outside of the isolated gap does not change polarity. Just the turnout changes polarity, according to which way the turnout is set for travel.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

xbartx!!! Not sure how far along you are, but have you considered a double track main?? Just asking...


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

With a double crossover


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

cid said:


> xbartx!!! Not sure how far along you are, but have you considered a double track main?? Just asking...


I did not and it seems pretty cramped already. I didn't think a double track mainline was a common occurrence on a narrow gauge line, I'm I wrong?


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

You're probably not wrong about that. It's just a necessity for me🤣🤣. Just asking...


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

tps://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/159000.aspx 
A short discussion on this topic. It's your railroad!!!


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

mesenteria said:


> Yes, a DPDT (double pole, double throw) toggle switch, mounted on the fascia, should suffice.
> 
> If this is DCC, then an auto-reverser would be helpful and prevent any 'oopsie' that will happen when you forget.
> 
> I am using a 20-year old Super Empire Builder that still works like a Toyota.


I'm still going through the boxes and boxes of accessories that came with this purchase, thousands of parts and pieces to go through and 98% never opened (it was a local estate purchase)
I went through the boxes that contained the DCC and other electronics. I found a turntable controller that looks to have a polarity reversing feature on it.




















There are 20 or more slow motion machines to throw turnouts and 6 Digitrax DS54 decoders to control them.










I have a lot of learning to do!


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Do you have access to the track inside the tunnels?


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

Gramps said:


> Do you have access to the track inside the tunnels?


I do plan to have access via cutouts in the fascia behind the tunnels.


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

The section in the top left will be the base for some of the buildings on the side of a steep hill.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

xbartx said:


> I'm still going through the boxes and boxes of accessories that came with this purchase, thousands of parts and pieces to go through and 98% never opened (it was a local estate purchase)
> I went through the boxes that contained the DCC and other electronics. I found a turntable controller that looks to have a polarity reversing feature on it.
> 
> View attachment 590580
> ...


xbartx;

The photo of your slow motion switch machines shows a pair of micro-switches built into the unit. The three terminals on the micro switch should be marked "COM", "N.O.", and "N.C." One of these switches can be used to control frog polarity. Connect the "COM" (common) terminal of the micro-switch to the frog. Connect the "N.O." (normally open) terminal to one of the outer rails of the turnout. Connect the "N.C." (normally closed) terminal of the switch to the other outside rail of the turnout. Which terminal connects to which outside rail is a 50/50 guess. If it shorts, or doesn't work, reverse the two wires.
The other micro-switch can be used to operate lineside signals or control panel indicator lights, if you wish.
Connect the power for the lights to the "COM" terminal, and a light to each of the other terminals. As an example if a train approaches from the wide end of the turnout, and the points are set the wrong way for it, a red signal would be displayed. When the points were thrown the right way, the signal would change to green.

NOTE: Your slow motion switch machines are not wired this way now. It looks like the two micro-switches are wired to act as "limit switches", that is, they stop the motor when the micro switch is activated. There is also a telephone style jack on the switch machine. This may be an input from one of those Digitrax decoders. If you have printed directions for installing the switch machines, they should show you if this assumption is true or not. If it is, then you can disregard the previous paragraph, and just leave the switch machine's wiring as is. I suggested it simply because I happen to use the same type of motors, (minus the circuit board) and with limit switches & frog polarity switches. However, you can use these switch machines any way you like.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

traction fan said:


> xbartx;
> 
> The photo of your slow motion switch machines shows a pair of micro-switches built into the unit. The three terminals on the micro switch should be marked "COM", "N.O.", and "N.C." One of these switches can be used to control frog polarity. Connect the "COM" (common) terminal of the micro-switch to the frog. Connect the "N.O." (normally open) terminal to one of the outer rails of the turnout. Connect the "N.C." (normally closed) terminal of the switch to the other outside rail of the turnout. Which terminal connects to which outside rail is a 50/50 guess. If it shorts, or doesn't work, reverse the two wires.
> The other micro-switch can be used to operate lineside signals or control panel indicator lights, if you wish.
> ...


Thanks for the info! It came with five Digitrax DS54 Stationary decoders that look like they were going to be used for turnout control. 
I have so much to learn and hoping I'm doing things in the right order. I'll reference this info when I start wiring the turnouts.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

xbartx said:


> Thanks for the info! It came with five Digitrax DS54 Stationary decoders that look like they were going to be used for turnout control.
> I have so much to learn and hoping I'm doing things in the right order. I'll reference this info when I start wiring the turnouts.


xbartx;

Your welcome. It looks like you are off to a good start, and that you made quite a good haul from that estate sale!
It also looks & sounds like this is not your first venture into model railroading, is that right? The attached files are some that I wrote for beginners, so much of the info may not be new to you. However, you said that "you have so much to learn", so some of it may prove helpful. I look forward to updates on the progress of your layout.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Looks like a Switchmaster stall motor on a Rixrack? mount. Since it a stall motor a simple DPDT switch wired as a reverse switch will control it. The micro switches are for frog power or signals as the stall motor is designed to always be powered, even when stalled.


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## xbartx (4 mo ago)

Lemonhawk said:


> Looks like a Switchmaster stall motor on a Rixrack? mount. Since it a stall motor a simple DPDT switch wired as a reverse switch will control it. The micro switches are for frog power or signals as the stall motor is designed to always be powered, even when stalled.


Good to know, Thanks!


traction fan said:


> xbartx;
> 
> Your welcome. It looks like you are off to a good start, and that you made quite a good haul from that estate sale!
> It also looks & sounds like this is not your first venture into model railroading, is that right?
> Traction Fan


Thanks for those beginner tips, I'll look through them when I get a chance.

Yes, I came home with 10 times more equipment than I will ever be able to use. I did have a live steam garden railroad 20+ years ago and an N gauge layout more than 50 years ago as a kid.

Would it be better to solder the feeder wires before or after mounting the track and turnouts to the cork/plywood base?
-Brad


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I always soldered feeders to the bottom of rail joiners, then soldered the joiners to both track sections making it 6, 9, 12ft sections etc. Feeders should be about every 6 ft. Then thread the feeders down through pin holes and lastly secure it all to the cork. This way the joiners are only for mechanical alignment really, and there’s no iffy/loose electrical connection. 

But there are an assortment of methods, like “skinning cats.” I find it easier to solder connections before the track is permanently in place. I’d assume most prefer that than soldering into the rail web after secured.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You can always solder feeders after the track is down. I would use small binder clips on either side of where you want to solder a feeder as heat sinks to help prevent melting the ties. Also its nice to use a little liquid solder flux and tin the track and the wire before soldering the feeder to the track, that way the soldering goes much quicker! Solid wire might be a little easier than stranded. I use to solder to the bottom of the joiners, but then you can't solder the joiner to the track. Now I use PC ties (printed circuit board ties) to make all the feeder connections completely hidden, but that takes a little prior effort to make them nice and hidden.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

xbartx said:


> Good to know, Thanks!
> 
> Thanks for those beginner tips, I'll look through them when I get a chance.
> 
> ...


xbartx;

That depends on where, on the rail, you want to solder the feeder wire.
There are two common locations. The outside of the rail is more commonly used, since it is much easier than the alternative, the bottom of the rail. Soldering the wire to the bottom has the advantage of making the feeder wire completely invisible. However, there are potential problems with the bottom method. Once the wires are soldered to the bottom of the track, you have to make holes through the roadbed, and table, for the wires to be threaded down through. No matter how carefully I measured, I found it difficult /nearly impossible to have the holes line up perfectly with the wires. I usually ended up having to drill several holes to get the wires to line up.

There can be a more frustrating version of this same problem when the wires are soldered to the bottom of a flex track curve. When flex track is formed into a curve, one, or both, rails slide through the ties. Either the flex track must be bent to the curve , and hold that bend exactly, before the track can be glued down, with the wires lining up accurately with the pre-drilled holes, (good luck with that!) or the track has to be held in its exact location while holes are drilled next to the rail.

I do solder feeder wires to the bottom of the frogs on my scratchbuilt turnouts, since its more difficult to hide a feeder wire on the outside of a frog. (See photo, the white feeder wire goes under the roadbed to the bottom of the frog.) I solder all other feeder wires to the outside of the rail, after the track is glued down.

Use fairly small (24ga. - 28ga.) stranded wire, with the stripped end strands twisted & "tinned" with solder. I drill a 1/16" hole between two tie ends, right beside the rail, and angled inward under the rail. Then I clean and tin the outside of the rail where the feed wire will be attached. After threading one end of the wire down through the hole I make two 90 degree bends in the tinned end of the wire. Heat sinks, placed on either side of the solder joint, prevent the heat of soldering from melting the plastic ties. I then apply flux to the rail, place the feed wire next to the rail and solder the joint.

When the rail has fully cooled, I pull down on the wire from below. This checks that the solder joint is firm, and also drags any excess wire down the hole, & out of sight.
Once the track has been painted & ballasted its not easy to see the feed wire. Even if some nit picker did see it you can point out that prototype railroads also attach bond wires to their rails. 

Traction Fan🙂


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