# Lionel ZW-L transformer



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have been a good boy this year so I was going to get me a ZW-L for Christmas.
Last year one of the train stores had a Black Friday special for 600.something. Alot
but a good deal for one. So if I could find one for 600 s that had one I was going to
jump. I found one for 700 something yesterday. I got a 5700 refund check from
Mo Revenue for my tax refund in my mail box today. I went on line this evening to buy one. The place was out of them. Found another one but they want 990.00. El Paso. I am ok because I saw that they are made in China now. Just did not sit right with me. I will just buy me anouther ZW. I have one but I want 2 to run. If I can find a ZW-L for under 800 I will probably buy one, but not sure I can.
I think they are 600 and some watt. Plus I think they have volt and amp meters. Nice machines. LOL and they have a cool blue LIONEL lit sign when turned on.

I didn't buy one last night because I did not know when my check was coming. Checked Ebay.
Not a one.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have a pair of ZW-L's powering the tracks on my layout. In my opinion it is the best AC power supply for trains ever made. The postwar ZW is not even close. At $700 the cost is $1 per watt of output, not input, as the old ZW is rated. The output circuit protection is first rate. It has high voltage surge suppression, amperage trips at 10A/channel and a foldback protection circuit on each output. I am constantly activating the foldback protection when I run an engine into an open turnout, with powered frogs that is an instant short circuit. The foldback limits the current to well below the 10A max for about 2 seconds until the breaker trips, so there is no arcing at the wheels. If I am quick I can move the engine backward a few inches to clear the short prior to the breaker tripping. There are volt and ammeters. It can operate as a conventional transformer or in Legacy Command Control mode.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Oh, I known they are a great transformer. Thats why I want one. You are right about the protection. A ZW with original breaker will take 10 seconds to blow. Thats a long time and a lot of damage can happen in 10 seconds. Especially with modern locos and their boards.My ZW has an upgraded modern breaker and it will blow in 2 to 3 seconds.
I tried it out. I would not run a ZW with original breaker. I sure don't need a ZW-L, but they are sweet.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

With the price increases I think around 840.00 is retail. I ain't paying that though. The ZW is still one of the best old school transformers. I really like mine. Plenty of power for me. I have only run 1 train at a time but I think it would run 2 at a time fine. Has 4 throttles but I would only run 2 at a time. Hoping to have 4 loops someday, thats why I want 2 transformers.


----------



## HowardH (Sep 18, 2020)

Got myself the same present a couple years ago for my AF layout (didn't want to risk frying the circuit boards of newer locos) - and now couldn't imagine being without it. It was about $900 and even back then had a hard time finding one.
I think it's listed as 620 total watts for the four outputs - which is plenty for me; I wired it so the two outside throttles for separate trains, another output for switches and the fourth for accessories - so if something goes haywire, not too hard to track it down.
Only problem - just hope everything works, as nobody will repair them. I remember being so excited by the performance when I got it hooked up but bummed the light behind one of the four meters was out. After numerous calls learned it's not a matter of unscrewing a panel and replacing a bulb, but the meter (which works fine aside from the light) would have to be replaced - and nobody would touch it. Lionel, though, was helpful: "No problem, it's under warranty - just send it to us and we might have it back to you in three-four months". As having a spare ZW-L on hand is not really an option for me, I've learned to live with it.
And yes, though I'd rather see "A.C. Gilbert", that blue-lit "Lionel" is pretty cool and gets a lot of comment.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I bet Charles Ro would fix it. Thats the place that went through my ZW and added the modern breaker. Glad to
hear you like the ZW-L. How is your layout doing.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

When operating just postwar engines a good breaker is all you need. When operating FlyerChief or Legacy engines there must be a TVS diode across all the outputs. If not, sooner or later the voltage transients will damage the electronics in the engines.
The ZW-L outputs 10A at 18V from each of four channels, however the total continuous wattage is 620W. I have never come close to close to that much demand. The comparable output wattage for a ZW is about 220W.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Does the ZW-L have a TVS diode across all outputs?
My ZW is putting out 20 volts per channel. No full throttle runs for me.
Gilbert and AM locos would not like that. No problem for me. I like to
run my trains slow anyway.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They are nice, but I cant see spending the $$$ on one. Especially when I have enough power with other transformers. You have a zw allready, pick up another and modify it. Save yourselve 400$ with that buy more trains, or the track for the other 2 loops. Its better , and cool, but the old guys still hold up.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, I run my layout with four Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks. Really great circuit protection, compact, and lots of power.


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> FWIW, I run my layout with four Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks. Really great circuit protection, compact, and lots of power.


I would not exactly call that compact. Too much wiring. Anyway, the ZW-L is the way to go. You accomplish everything in a very small space.

I picked up mine for $500 shipped.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Great price, even if used. ?


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The ZW-L has internal transient voltage protection. 
Gunrunnerjohn has a very well thought out power supply and distribution system on his layout. One advantage to using the PH180 bricks is there is a full 720W available with four of them. They are cheaper than a ZW-L if you already have the Legacy 990 system to control the track power. 
The wiring is very simple for just powering an S gauge layout with one or more PH180 bricks. In GRJ's picture the four black devices at the top, the large black device in the center and the small black device at the lower left are all MTH DCS items needed to use both DCS and Legacy on the layout at the same time. None of these are needed for S gauge since we do not use DCS. The three blue items at the bottom are LCS components. I use that system but it is not required with either a ZW-L or the PH180 bricks. The 990 Legacy base is on the lower right, it has just a one wire connection to the tracks. The large plug in the center of the 990 is for the LCS.


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

The 180 bricks are over $150 each unless you pick them up like GR did at a fraction of that price. One major advantage of the ZW-L are the built in powermasters so basically al you need is a remote, CAB1, CAB2 or CAB1-L, and you can control power to the tracks, up to four, or split it up and control a couple of engines.

I got a deal on my ZW-L, new in the OB and shipping carton for $500 delivered. At the time there were several available at York for that price.

If you look around and wait a little after the frenzy when they come back on the market you might be able to snag one foe around that price.


----------



## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

I have to agree with mopac on the ZW-L country of manufacture. Anything with "made in China" I avoid. No since in supporting their economy any more than necessary. Have those ZW-L's always been made in China? When those first came out I thought hard about buying one when there was a local hobby store here. Could have bought it for 600.00. I'll keep running my 2 old original up dated ZW's with breaker protection added. All my engines are original AF even though I have integrated Lionel TMCC into the system for control. No "modern" stuff so no electronices to damage anyway. That's all the power I need. I do have 3 other smaller transfomers for acessories and lighting. 

Kenny


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think most anything is made in china now, or at least outside the USA. Lol. But I still like the old transformers. I have a bunch or bricks like john does. Got them cheap years ago, 4 or 5 zws , a z , a v , a centennial zw. Lol. Way too much power. I still want a vw. And a kw. But we will see. I buy but dont need.


----------



## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

After dabbling around with cheaper transformers when I first got into O-gauge, I finally bit the bullet and bought a ZW-L about 3 or 4 years ago. Ordered brand new from a well known on-line train shop, seems like I paid about $650 total or thereabouts, including shipping. As of right now, it's still the most expensive single O-gauge item I've bought yet! If a guy can afford it, I'd recommend one, even at today's prices. On a side note, I'm also guessing that the ZW-L has probably been made in China ever since its introduction.

There's at least a few reasons that finally enticed me to buy one. For one, even though I just run conventional right now, it's pretty versatile with some great features as others have noted. Although it's WAY more power than what I need at this point, I should have plenty of room to grow well into the future with this monster. 

Another reason: the "Cool" factor. In my opinion, nothing screams "Lionel" like a modern day ZW-L. It's big, it's heavy, it's powerful, it has volt and amp meters across the top, and "Lionel" lights up in blue when you turn it on. When you crank up a throttle, it doesn't take 'no' for an answer. Pretty impressive. Ooh-Rah! 

And better yet - personal satisfaction. While some would rather blow big bucks on expensive & problematic trains and then pinch pennies on the power to run them, I'm the exact opposite. I'd rather have a ZW-L and spend as little money as possible on cheap & reliable trains. Let's face facts - who cares? It all depends on where your priorities are at. Not to mention, I have a really cool ZW-L, and they don't.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I have, at last count, 3 ZW's, and I gave my older son a VW several months ago. I also have a couple of lesser wattage Lionel trannys. I only have 1 large loop of O gauge, GarGraves,48', and only 1 large loco with all the trimmings, a Big Boy from Lionel. I run that one with my upgraded ZW on the 1 loop, everything else is post-war, and maybe a little newer such as MTH and K-line but not with any trimmings, just conventional..


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have no problem with conventional only. Its fine with me. I have 5 or 6 "O' locomotives. I have no idea if they have a board or not. I suspect at least 4 of them do. Maybe more. I have 2 "S" FlyerChief locomotives. I would hate to Zap any of my boards. With the ZW-L being so cool and if it can protect my boards, it works for me. I sure do not need all the power the ZW-L has. I have always bought things I do not need. Can those diodes be added to a ZW transformer? I did install some new bigger diodes in my ZW. But they were for a whistle. Now you guys have me leery of running any of my modern engines till I get proper protection. I have plenty of Gilbert locos, with my ZW, to run till I find my ZW-L.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

A TVS diode can be added for using post war transformers. The TVS's can be added anywhere, but at the track power clip is slightly preferable to putting them across the transformer output terminals.
Back on 3/2 GRJ posted a link to a specific TVS to use. It is at Digi-Key, #1.5KE39CA. They are $5.60 for ten of them. The link is in a thread called "Questions about TVS'S types and makes."


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

There have been a lot of discussions related to transient voltage suppresors on these boards as well as others. White attaching it to the lock on is one method there is nothing wrong with putting them on the output posts of a transformer.

You should also be putting them on the inputs and outputs of various devices including Lionel and IC Controls components such as TPC’s ASC’s and others especially those made in China. This was a recommendation from Lou Kovatch original owner of IC Controls.

As to the value of the TVS’s there is also much discussion about which ones to use. QSI Inc., designer of the MTH PS1 sound system did a study of the affects of power surges from model train transformers. They found that a typical postwar Lionel ZW could produce a power surge of over 80 volts. More that enough to fry most modern electronic components. 

QSI also determined that MTH boards could only withstand a voltage spike of 35 volts while Lionel boards could withstand 50 volts without damage. So, if you have a TVS rated at more than 35 volts a power surge will damage an MTH board and not a Lionel one. 

Changes to MTH boards from PS2 and PS3 may have improved their ability to withstand power surges and the incorporation of TVS’s in their DCS system components may have contributed to reducing the damage from power spikes s well.

So, in spite of all the other recommendations, I used and have always recommended the following TVS: 1.5KE33CA. This will protect all of your boards since it will act below the 35 volt threshold.

But, do what you want. As for me I’ll stick with ones that will protect all spikes above 33 volts.

Getting back to the original discussion about the ZW-L. There is nothing in the literature or the You Tube video produced by Lionel that indicates they have built in TVS’s.


----------



## Yard King (4 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> A TVS diode can be added for using post war transformers. The TVS's can be added anywhere, but at the track power clip is slightly preferable to putting them across the transformer output terminals.
> Back on 3/2 GRJ posted a link to a specific TVS to use. It is at Digi-Key, #1.5KE39CA. They are $5.60 for ten of them. The link is in a thread called "Questions about TVS'S types and makes."


Being the other side of the pond can you confirm that as I believe, that these are bidirectional for AC use? Can you also give the spec on them re voltage and anything else so that I can see what is available over here. It seems alien to put something across the supply but I guess they only function when the voltage spike occurs and they shunt the voltage through the TVS diode.


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Yes, they are bidirectional and for AC use. The 1.5KE33CA will protect against spikes above 33 volts. As for putting them on across the inputs I’ve been doing it for 20 years and have never had a blown electronic board.

I’m sure others will weigh in and offer differing opinions. So, do what you want but I like to err on the side of caution.


----------



## Yard King (4 mo ago)

TJSmith said:


> Yes, they are bidirectional and for AC use. The 1.5KE33CA will protect against spikes above 33 volts. As for putting them on across the inputs I’ve been doing it for 20 years and have never had a blown electronic board.
> 
> I’m sure others will weigh in and offer differing opinions. So, do what you want but I like to err on the side of caution.


Cheers!!!!


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The ZW-L has an electronically generated chopped sine wave output, that at full voltage is a close approximation of a sine wave. Unless there was an internal component failure there is no way the ZW-L would generate or output a voltage spike greater that 26V, the peak voltage of the 18V waveform.


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

The testing QSI Inc. did was on conventional transformers like the postwar Lionel ZW. The report was published in O Gauge magazine.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Let's dispense with a little mis-information here.


TJSmith said:


> So, in spite of all the other recommendations, I used and have always recommended the following TVS: 1.5KE33CA. This will protect all of your boards since it will act below the 35 volt threshold.
> 
> But, do what you want. As for me I’ll stick with ones that will protect all spikes above 33 volts.


If we consult the actual data-sheet for the 1.5KE33CA, the previous statement is not really true. The maximum clamping voltage of the 1.5KE33CA is actually 45.7. 
Breakdown voltage: the voltage at which some specified and significant conduction occurs. 
Clamping voltage: the voltage at which the device will conduct its fully rated current.
In truth, the peak voltage will be somewhere between these two values, dependent on the characteristics of the transient event.


----------



## Yard King (4 mo ago)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Let's dispense with a little mis-information here.
> If we consult the actual data-sheet for the 1.5KE33CA, the previous statement is not really true. The maximum clamping voltage of the 1.5KE33CA is actually 45.7.
> Breakdown voltage: the voltage at which some specified and significant conduction occurs.
> Clamping voltage: the voltage at which the device will conduct its fully rated current.
> ...


can you confirm if the 1.5KE33CA is suitable for our needs or should we be looking at another TVS?


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Well as I read it that would mean that the ones you recommend would not provide the same level of protection as the 33 version. The 36 version you recommend or the poster whom said you recommend the 39 version would not provide any protection at all.

QSI Inc. and others including a licensed electrical engineer recommend the 1.5KE33CA. The paper he published is available to any one. I‘ll be glad to provide the link.

Do what you want but my setup is protected by the 1.5KE33CA Transient Voltage Supressors.

I have been using them since 1995 and have never, I repeat NEVER fried a board.


----------



## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

TJSmith said:


> QSI Inc. and others including a licensed electrical engineer recommend the 1.5KE33CA. The paper he published is available to any one. I‘ll be glad to provide the link.
> 
> Do what you want but my setup is protected by the 1.5KE33CA Transient Voltage Supressors.
> I have been using them since 1995 and have never, I repeat NEVER fried a board.


Well, you've sold me! I use a ZW, and though I've added 5A. thermal circuit breakers on each circuit, I'd never considered transient suppressors since I only run post-war conventional stuff, mostly Marx, and they're pretty bullet-proof. However, after a quick search I discovered that 20 of those diodes would cost me less than $3 including shipping, or under 15 cents each! It'll likely take two weeks to two months to get here, but IMHO it's cheap protection!


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I have to get the resetable breakers and the diodes again, no idea where mine went. But I also have to start working on the layout........


----------



## rvnmedic6869 (Oct 29, 2019)

Hard to believe NO ONE posted an image of this transformer, so I searched for one and here it is. You're welcome. LOL


----------

