# Where Is Vincent?



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

He's been gone for a week. 

Did he get lost in his underwater kingdom?


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Probably taking a siesta.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2019)

You think he went to see Esther? :goofball:

Maybe his internet is down or he's on vacation and doesn't have Wifi. I'm sure he'll be back soon.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I think maybe those pirates captured him.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

He's over at OGR. I think he got tired of being insulted by the guy from Calgary.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2019)

Lehigh74 said:


> He's over at OGR. I think he got tired of being insulted by the guy from Calgary.


I can't say that I blame him.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

As long as he is OK. I like him, miss him here, and have been worried about him myself.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well guys, its a shame he was so sensitive to it. (not to excuse it). I wish he was still here. Miss him.

What was that song in the Southpark movie? Oh yeah, I remember now: "Blame Canada!"

Hmmmm. . .


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## StevieWonder787 (Apr 27, 2016)

I don't know Vincent, but I do know that as a newbie, I believe that one certain poster was rude, arrogant, argumentative and a cyberbully (probably only a 6 or 7 out of 10). He made my brief time here in search of input and assistance a truly poor experience.

Having been on many forums in many different areas of endeavor, I know that we all can sometimes put something in a way that is easily perceived as being nasty. That may or may not be the intent of the poster, but it's pretty darn easy to offend somebody and as a casual observer I see several posters who are obviously intentional in their delivery and seem to take some degree of delight in making other people feel small, stupid or somehow beneath them. In my case one moderator reached out personally to apologize for another poster's repeated attempt to inflame and incite. His personal touch was the only reason I didn't depart the station at that point and I appreciated his reach out to me.

I will continue to monitor the forum, but will do so from the sidelines.


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## StevieWonder787 (Apr 27, 2016)

BTW, that particular poster reemerged on the now-locked thread where Vincent disappeared. He was, predictably, unsympathetic and harsh. Oh ... he wasn't from Canada but he's not too far away (geographically)


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

I'm with you, Stevie, despite not having the negative interaction you had. It concerns me as well, as it seems the offender has no qualms about offending again. It could easily happen to me, or anyone. It seems that the mods won't do more than lock the thread. I suspect this one to get locked as well.


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## StevieWonder787 (Apr 27, 2016)

The thread isn't the issue. The poster and his particular approach is the issue.

I understand free speech, but this is a private forum and there is no requirement to allow verbal abuse.


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

I wasn't suggesting this thread be locked because of abuse. It seems that ignoring the problem will make it go away. I sorta get that, but it doesn't work. And shining a light on it probably doesn't sit well either.


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## StevieWonder787 (Apr 27, 2016)

I didn't mean just this thread. 

My point was not to close threads but put offending posters into "time out" and eventually move to a full ban if they don't get the message.


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

Oh, I'm with you. Apparently the mods aren't.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Bottom line, I just try to live my computer life with this one thing; you can't win an argument with a computer.:dunno:


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

But that doesn't mean you have to be abused. And if you just ignore it, it doesn't go away, and it then becomes more acceptable. Normalized.


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

StevieWonder787 said:


> I didn't mean just this thread.
> 
> My point was not to close threads but put offending posters into "time out" and eventually move to a full ban if they don't get the message.


From what GRJ has said in the past, it takes a lot more time and work to prune a thread that to close or lock it. And since the mods only get paid minimum wage. It's not worth the time..... :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

I have had several interactions with the hinted at offender. We exchanged PM's. When it ran it's course, we are all OK now.

Dan


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Frisco Firefly said:


> From what GRJ has said in the past, it takes a lot more time and work to prune a thread that to close or lock it. And since the mods only get paid minimum wage. It's not worth the time..... :laugh::laugh::laugh:


There's that, and the appearance of "censorship." A lot of comments on here about heavy handed moderation at other places, IMO they want to stand back as long as possible.


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

First, censorship of an abusive post can't be "heavy handed". Rules are there for a reason. If a mod ignores an offense, it can be unequal moderation, unless he ignores all offenses. Then, why have rules at all?

And I'm not talking about locking versus pruning a thread. Neither of those punishes the offender.


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

Stan D said:


> First, censorship of an abusive post can't be "heavy handed". Rules are there for a reason. If a mod ignores an offense, it can be unequal moderation, unless he ignores all offenses. Then, why have rules at all?
> 
> And I'm not talking about locking versus pruning a thread. Neither of those punishes the offender.


Who gets to determine that the post is abusive. ??

I have seen GRJ ban several people since I have been here, but it usually involved that person getting nasty with GRJ.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Stan D said:


> First, censorship of an abusive post can't be "heavy handed"...


I never said that. I was commenting about heavy handed moderation at another site, and the cries of censorship that followed.


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

The rules do, at least in this case. The post aimed at Vincent was clearly abusive and harassing, and borders on hateful. All of these are covered in the rules section of this forum.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Stan, I think we get your point. Can you give it a rest and be happy?


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2019)

Stan, a lot of the O Gauge guys were on the O Gauge Railroading forum where innocent posts were censored because they were reasonably critical of an advertiser's product or for violating one of that forum's rules so sometimes the moderators are slow to discipline a member here even when it is deserved not wanting to be too quick to censor or discipline.. Most of the members here are decent folks who wouldn't intentionally insult or demean another member. Unfortunately, there are a couple who get pleasure from demeaning others.


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

Sorry, but this is a sore subject for me. I've been the victim in another forum, and I have little patience for such behavior. I belong to too many forums, so I've seen inequities in moderation, that absolutely drive off other members. And while I'm relatively new here, and don't know Vincent, it's apparent to me that he's been driven off because of abusive behavior.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

We don't know what has gone on behind the scenes so-to-speak, say via PM. It may be between the people doing the talking out in the open, or between the moderator and either/both parties. That was the approach I took when I was moderating years ago. If a person was intractable, unrepentant, and didn't change the undesired behaviour, he/she was cautioned once and then given a temporary ban, and lastly a permanent ban if there was no improvement. Three strikes, with coaching and warnings, and then yer out.

It is always the case that the first to complain are those with the lowest tolerance for tone or words that indicate strong disagreement or for personal attacks. Later, the more middle-ground people pipe up, those usually comprising about 67% of the population, and the last to complain are those who get fed up, or who complain when they come under direct attack themselves, or who want revenge and pile on.

Somewhere along the line the moderators should be obliged to pipe up and explain that there's no cause to intervene, and why, or to actually intervene. The culture and policies, if maintained, set those parameters. When moderators are not themselves obliged to explain themselves, or to account for their choices of action or inaction, then things tend to slide toward one end of the spectrum of moderation and its tolerance for what the stated rules say should not be done.


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## PoppetFlatsRR (Jul 29, 2018)

I really don't want to respond to this, but just feel I have to. 

I am a Jarhead, 26 years, 2 tours in vietnam many years on recruiting duty. Have been called about every name, spit on, called a killer, murder and a few other things. 

I think we have gone way too far overboard on this bullying protection thing that seems to be politically correct these days. My grandmother told me when I was very young, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. I grew up with that attitude, carried it thru all my years in the Marines and then on to 5 successful business that i started and sold. The other wise words were, treat everyone as you want to be treated. Never look for a fight, but never run from one either.

I think Vincent was a good guy and brought a lot of humor to this site. I am new here and only read a few of his posts and thoughts. Yes different, but for him it was fun. That is why we are here, to have fun.

I do see levels of accesptance here. It seems to me that O scale seems to be the royal group and the rest are not just quite as good. I admire the scale and think I have friends in it. It seems a lot only seem to think that what they do is the only scale/idea/group are te only ones important (my take). 

I have asked many questions, but recieved very few answers or advice to help me. That is what I joined for. I never realized it was some what of a class group.

I am not hear to ask Vincent to come back and post. What is good for him is what he should do. I will say I miss his wit, and crazy ideas. 

We all need to be a little nicer, but we all need to be a little tougher skinned. You are only bullied when you allow the bully to do it. Turning tail and running is never the answer.

Rodney Kng said it. Can't we all just get along


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

PoppetFlatsRR said:


> I really don't want to respond to this, but just feel I have to.
> 
> I am a Jarhead, 26 years, 2 tours in vietnam many years on recruiting duty. Have been called about every name, spit on, called a killer, murder and a few other things.
> 
> ...


Welcome home...My b-i-l was at the Siege of Khe Sahn. My f-i-l went through Hue after the US re-took it.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Something occurred to me after reading two threads and dozens of posts on this topic. All the discussions started AFTER the fact. Not one of us, myself included, said anything while this was occurring. 

The only reason I can think of for this is that we have grown accustomed to this level of abrasiveness by certain members. We didn’t think it was a problem until it became one. 

So maybe a bit of self examination is in order. Like the famous line from Pogo: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

prrfan said:


> Something occurred to me after reading two threads and dozens of posts on this topic. All the discussions started AFTER the fact. Not one of us, myself included, said anything while this was occurring.
> 
> The only reason I can think of for this is that we have grown accustomed to this level of abrasiveness by certain members. We didn’t think it was a problem until it became one.
> 
> So maybe a bit of self examination is in order. Like the famous line from Pogo: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”


I thought the same thing. And did a bit of self-examination. I was thinking I should have warned Vincent not to take the bait after the junkshop comment, but I didn’t.
On the thread that got closed, I called the troll on his misbehavior thinking that he might have an epiphany, but he showed no remorse. I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised.
There is an expression: Don’t feed the troll. I think that’s the best policy. I believe in karma. The troll will get his “reward” one day.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yeah, that was what I was thinking. I won't stand by next time, I value to many friends here to let that happen.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

prrfan said:


> Something occurred to me after reading two threads and dozens of posts on this topic. All the discussions started AFTER the fact. Not one of us, myself included, said anything while this was occurring.
> 
> The only reason I can think of for this is that we have grown accustomed to this level of abrasiveness by certain members. We didn’t think it was a problem until it became one.
> 
> So maybe a bit of self examination is in order. Like the famous line from Pogo: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”


THIS...what you have noted...is precisely WHY the moderators have such an important role. 

This type of social media, a forum, is what is called 'asynchronous' in that it isn't a live chat room where dozens of us are holding a conversation in real time, all seated at a table someplace or out in a park staring at our smart phones 'cuz there's nothing else to do or see where we are...in a park. One person posts something and a whole day can go by before another responds. That's a lot of time during which people drift off never to return, or come back and find there's an inflammatory post or a personal attack. That one dangling nasty post can set a tone for the 'conversation' from which it may not recover in the right circumstances. Is that what the board wants?


I, too, spent 30 years in the (Canadian) Military. Contrary to the previous gentleman, PoppletFlats, my experience was different. We aren't allowed to call each other names or belittle each other. It is forbidden. That was not only the policy, but the leadership made darned good n' sure it was also the practice. IOW, it became part of our _organizational culture_. 


I also teach ethics and logic at the university level. In logic, an attack on the person is called an 'ad hominem' fallacy, or translated from Latin, "to the person". You are attacking the person and can no longer refute by argument what the other person claims is the case. It's a failure and a capitulation when you resort to ad hominem attacks. Far better to withdraw from the discussion if you cannot bring yourself to concede, which would be the decent thing to do when you can't refute or mount a counter-argument of any kind. It is at the point where one person repeatedly mounts direct and personal ad hominem attacks that the moderator should intervene to correct the tone of the discussion. Take the rest of the crap off line to emails or PMs. When I moderated a forum, and ran discussion forums for my courses for years, that was the rule. Have at it if you must, but don't do it on the forum. Period.


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

I was new here when Vincent was still here last. At first when I read the posts about him missing I wasn’t sure who he was but now after the underwater kingdom comments I know who he is. I didn’t see the bullying first hand. I did like seeing his posts and pics they were different, but aren’t all of our pics different? I myself am not very sensitive about what other people say but I’ve known people that were. I don’t know Vincent so these thoughts are totally hypothetical,but as you sit here and see and read peoples comments you’re seeing a microscopic piece of them. They could have stuff going on in their lives that you and I couldn’t even get through. You never know what somebody else is living through. A stupid comment or two my seem laughable or harmless at face value, but you don’t know the rest of what it’s being added to. This place may be a persons escape from the stress and/ tragedies they face on a daily basis a place to talk to other people and most of all fit in. He could be confined to an apartment due to some handicap or another taking care of a sick or dying parent perhaps. This could be his only get away from real life for a few minutes at a time. Just something to think about is all. Just my thoughts on it. I hope I see him around again some day!


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

One of the things I really liked about Vincent was his enthusiasms for what he was working on and he was doing it without spending a lot of money. He liked sharing what he was doing.

When Lee posted this I was worried that something had happened to him maybe because of where he lives. He had posted about the area being out of gas because there were gangs stealing gas from the pipelines and he said his vehicle had some mechanical problem.

I have noticed that he logs on to the forum so he must be reading what is being said here. ??


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## PoppetFlatsRR (Jul 29, 2018)

Well if he is, and I hope he is, he has a lot more friends than enemies it appears in this thread. I personally would like to see him come back, as stated I loved his humor.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Folks, it's real easy to criticize the moderating, but that's before you've walked a mile in my shoes. This is a pretty thankless job, and truthfully the pay stinks as well.  We hardly have 24/7 coverage, and we kind of expect people to act as adults. It's pretty hard to strike a balance between being heavy-handed and letting things get totally out of hand. One reason that politics was finally totally banned is because people simply could not be adult about the discussions. Remember, it takes two to make an argument, and if a snaky comment is made, you don't have to respond.

BTW, we're always looking for highly paid volunteers.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I don't think you'd want me as a voluntary moderator, paid or otherwise. I was often criticized on another hobby forum for being heavy-handed. This, natcherly, came from the allies and pilers-on who enjoyed the verbal sparring and at least cheered from the sidelines. 

Mind you, I did have a lasting effect there. The place retains what most still there think is an improved demeanor.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> BTW, we're always looking for highly paid volunteers.





highly paid ?? lol


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## PoppetFlatsRR (Jul 29, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Folks, it's real easy to criticize the moderating, but that's before you've walked a mile in my shoes. This is a pretty thankless job, and truthfully the pay stinks as well.  We hardly have 24/7 coverage, and we kind of expect people to act as adults. It's pretty hard to strike a balance between being heavy-handed and letting things get totally out of hand. One reason that politics was finally totally banned is because people simply could not be adult about the discussions. Remember, it takes two to make an argument, and if a snaky comment is made, you don't have to respond.
> 
> BTW, we're always looking for highly paid volunteers.


Gunrunner, I hope you did not take my post as criticizim. I certainly did not intend it that way.

I think we all need to grow up a little on this stuff. Life isn't a box of chocolates so to speak. Like I said before, I came here to have fun, learn more about my new hobby and talk with others that are interested in model trains, be them on normal terrain, have wings or go under water. 

If I have offended anyone, I am sorry.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> BTW, we're always looking for highly paid volunteers.


GRJ I doubt anyone was criticizing you or anyone else. 

I appreciate the work you do here and know how difficult it is. There is no way I would ever take it on. Around 2002 - 2005 I moderated a Corvette Forum. People take cars even more seriously than they do model trains, and can get downright mean and predatory. I was so glad to get out of that job.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

wvgca said:


> highly paid ?? lol


For sure, they get twice what the Admin gets.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee Willis said:


> GRJ I doubt anyone was criticizing you or anyone else.
> 
> I appreciate the work you do here and know how difficult it is. There is no way I would ever take it on. Around 2002 - 2005 I moderated a Corvette Forum. People take cars even more seriously than they do model trains, and can get downright mean and predatory. I was so glad to get out of that job.


Gosh Lee, and here I was just going to draft you into the position! Are you saying you're turning it down? :smilie_auslachen:


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

wvgca said:


> highly paid ?? lol


Twice nothing is still nothing...


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