# Bad knees = problems?



## Canadian GP (Dec 16, 2014)

I am a 57 year old retiree with arthritic knees (35 years as a mailman) and have trouble crouching down or even getting up and down from the floor. If I do start model railroading again will this be a problem?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Canadian GP said:


> I am a 57 year old retiree with arthritic knees (35 years as a mailman) and have trouble crouching down or even getting up and down from the floor. If I do start model railroading again will this be a problem?


Build your layout to be viewed at chest height or from a barstool and I'd say no. You can always make gates/lift out sections to avoid crawl unders.

Do you have a space in mind?


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Using sstlaure's chest-high suggestion, you will still need to get under your layout for wiring. I'd suggest getting one of those mechanic's roll around stools. They are built low so mechanics can easily access the wheels and brakes of cars. I think that will allow you to get under your board and roll around easily. Some even have adjustable height.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

A mechanics stool would work or an old office chair with the back removed. 
I built my layout at about an average of 40" or so off the floor. The design of the full basement layout let me build the roadbed on the frame work so that I could sit on a rolling chair while I did the track and signal wiring. The photo below shows a portion of the layout before the facia was applied. 





Here is a video that shows the entire empire.


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

I would go along with the mechanics stool. I think it would work great for what you need.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm a little creaky, too. I have a bar stool that I move between my workbench and my layout, and a creeper. One end of the creeper can raise up like a pool chair, and even has a small padded area for my head. I could not work under my layout without it.

Also, see if you can find corrugated foam floor tiles. For those of us who have spent too much time on our feet, they make standing bearable.


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## infernisdiem (Nov 12, 2011)

depending on how big your layout is, you could always build it on rising platforms, if you need to get under it, flip a switch and watch it rise up, kinda like a garage door, then wheel under it and make the fix/change you need to. Plus, it will allow you to put the layout "away" lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

What they said. Make a plan, run most of your wires on the frame while standing up. Then put the top boards on. Now you just have to feed the wires up through the table top. A little less work. Make sure all conections are solid. In other words dont cheap out. Then , hopefully, when done there will never be a need to crawl under the table again. ( except when adding new stuff) . Use bus bars so that if you do add stuff you can run a shorter wire to it. While my knees arnt bad yet , im well over six foot and want to spend as little time as possible under the table.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I chose the height of my layout by laying on the floor and reaching up. For me the hardest part is the wiring. Under the table I have spots to hang a light in each corner so I can see what I am doing. Once down there I do not need to get up till I am done. I found a chair that is the hight to match the top of the layout. Since I sit in the middle of it I can reach most of it by sliding the chair around. I do need to stand to reach the back of the tables though. To get to the middle there is a 2 x 3 section on hinges that lifts up, no ducking under .


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

If you are making a small (like 4' x 8') layout, you can flip your board upside down to do the wiring -- or lean it up against a wall.


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## dsertdog56 (Oct 26, 2014)

I have rubber safety mat on the floor to stand on. It really helps!


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## Canadian GP (Dec 16, 2014)

Lots of great ideas, taking them all into consideration, thanks. 

I was thinking of doing a 4x8 layout to start and hinge it off the wall, that way I could easily get to the wiring. If I did it this way would I be able to add to it further down the road?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Canadian GP said:


> Lots of great ideas, taking them all into consideration, thanks.
> 
> I was thinking of doing a 4x8 layout to start and hinge it off the wall, that way I could easily get to the wiring. If I did it this way would I be able to add to it further down the road?


Sure you could - just install a turnout in a good location off your outer loop to go off in the direction you think you'd want to expand later.


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## oldsarge218 (May 23, 2011)

If you were to hinge it off the wall, wouldn't that be limiting you as to what type of scenery and/or buildings you could build? Personally, I am having just as much if not more fun with the scenery, as with anything else. Just a thought for consideration.
God Bless
Bob


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Hinging off the wall on a 4x8 layout would also limit your reach across the board to the back side to access derailments and such. And as oldsarge said, it'd limit your reach for scenery too.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*viewing and working options*

Maybe try an adjustable office chair on wheels .Regards,tr1


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Fire21 said:


> Hinging off the wall on a 4x8 layout would also limit your reach across the board to the back side to access derailments and such. And as oldsarge said, it'd limit your reach for scenery too.


It all depends on (1) how much space you have (and what is the shape of that space), and (2) how much engineering you willing to do to make your layout accessible to you.

You could make the a rolling table (with locking feet) to SET (not attach) your 4x8 board to. (The board could be held in place by pins that drop into holes in the table or by window-type latches that can be easily opened.) Then you could walk around it and reach everything. When you need access to the bottom of the board, you could roll the table to the wall, attach the hinges on one side, and attach ropes to the other side (run through pulleys on the wall) and winch the board up.

Of course you would have to remove all trains and any structures that are not glued down. If you built a ledge (say about 8" wide) into the wall where the hinges attach, any fixed scenery that is less than 8" would not need be affected by hoisting the board up. And of course, you might not need to winch the table into a full vertical position to access what you need to fix or add on to.

Yes this is a lot of work to get at the bottom of the table, but if you do all of the wiring in one of the ways suggested above before you do anything else, you should not have to winch up the table very often.

As for adding on later, you could build additional modules that are small enough to manage (you will know how small after you do the first one). Then connect the modules with short segments of structure and track -- like the lift gates that some modelers use to access the center of large layouts.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

One other option is to use foam board on top and if you have a good track plan and can stick to it you can run most if not all wiring in groves cut into the foam board. 
Thus all or most all wiring will be on top of the layout. 

Pico switch machines mount on the bottom of the Pico turnouts and will fit into a hole cut into the foam board. 
It will take about 2 inches of foam board to clear the base board. 

You can run your power buss and even a lighting buss. If you have a good enough plan.

Magic


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## trains galore (Jul 22, 2013)

Most of the layouts at my model train club are built in small sections which can be clamped up on their side to do the wiring and points so you don't have to go under the layout to do it! Much easier and it works well


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I've had 12 surgeries on my legs, the latest being 2 total hip replacements. When the going gets tough, I get my youngest son, 25 yrs old, to do the hard work,lol. I don't suppose there's an easy way to get under the table.When I build sections of layout, I always have a shelf on the bottom also. 4X8 of course on top, and then a 4X8 about 18" off the floor. That way when I wire, I can lie down and do my wiring, making it easy of the back and lower extremities.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Sure are a lot of very valid suggestions in these
posts.

I don't have any maladies beyond AGE and lack of
motivation to crawl under my layout. I dislike it
and put it off. So if you can avoid it you'll be happier.

One thought occurred to me that you could consider.

Since you will have a 4 X 8 table you have the opportunity to plan
ahead. Attach the foam topping or whatever you intend,
then install on it your track layout with drops, turnouts with drops, 
and stub in wiring for lighted buildings and other electrical uses.
You can then tilt the 'table',
and install your track buss, turnout and accessory wiring 
from a seated position (most of the time). 

It would be best to have access to both top and bottom
of the table so you can test your wiring.

After everything is working, right the table and go ahead with buildings and
other scenic effects.

You could use your hinge on the wall idea, however,
it would be better to have the table spaced away from the wall
to give you easy access all around it. So a table with legs, and perhaps,
rollers may be best in the end.

Don


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## Bone1977 (Jan 17, 2014)

How about using variable height horses? When you need easier access to the wiring and underside of the layout you can easily raise them up. When you are working on the layout you can set it to whichever height you feel comfortable working at that day and you will have 360 access. You can make your own or buy some, whichever is easier.

Or you could do a suspended layout perhaps. Something you can raise and lower at will. I believe there is a thread here showing just such a layout in someone's garage.


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## Canadian GP (Dec 16, 2014)

I was planning on having my layout in a small storage room off the unused rec room in the basement. I was talking about this with my Wife this morning and she said why not use the rec room, it has more natural light. I just gained 400% more space for my layout, yes I love my Wife.

This makes it so much easier since I can keep the layout away from the walls and lean it over to work on the wiring. Should I use 4x4's on the side of the table that will be holding all the weight?

Where is a good place to look for layout designs?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you are going to be tilting and moving the table, you want
it to be as light as possible. Use 1 X 3 or 1 X 4 for framing and
legs. Use a light plywood, maybe 3 ply but with adequate 
cross braces.

I use the modular system. I built 4 X 4 and other size modules
then bolted them together to form my around the room
layout. Consider that as a possible way to start your layout.
It's cab be light, easily moved and expandable.

Don


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Canadian GP said:


> I was planning on having my layout in a small storage room off the unused rec room in the basement. I was talking about this with my Wife this morning and she said why not use the rec room, it has more natural light. I just gained 400% more space for my layout, yes I love my Wife.
> 
> This makes it so much easier since I can keep the layout away from the walls and lean it over to work on the wiring. Should I use 4x4's on the side of the table that will be holding all the weight?
> 
> Where is a good place to look for layout designs?


I use 2X4's on the framing, and 24" on center for the table top itself. I then use 1/2" plywood for the top. It's sturdy enough to walk on..


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

It's great that you have the additional space. Before you go placing a big slab of layout in the middle of the room, however, consider an around the walls version. While access to the storage room may complicate things slightly, around the walls will ultimately give you more layout room because you don't require space-hogging aisles (absolute minimum width of 20" for just squeezing through; 30"+ for anywhere you're actually going to stand for any length of time) on all sides.

Your absolute maximum lumber size on this is going to be 2x4, and even those are overkill. As flyernut says, you can stand on his, and you really don't need that much weight bearing ability. My legs are L girders made of 1x2 (a 1x4 ripped down the middle) and 1x3 glued and screwed into L shapes. The frame is 1x3, and the stringers, on 18" centers, are also 1x3. The base is 2" extruded foam insulating board, with no plywood under it. This foam is amply strong for me to lean on; the only reason to use a plywood base is to give you something to fasten to under the layout -- I have to run wooden brackets out from my stringers. I have a leg every 48" along the edge of the layout, braced with plywood gussets for stability.

Many newcomers assume that they have to make their layout bombproof, and that's really overkill. It's both cheaper and faster to use only the support you really need.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

My layout is 23" off of the floor, why?, that's how my layout was built by my Dad.

My knees are bad too. 

I just plan ahead and do all the work under the table at one time.

And, I keep chairs etc nearby to use to help get my arse off the floor.


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