# breaker box in my way



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

What do you guys do when you have a breaker box smack in the middle of your backdrop?
I recently added onto my layout and now my breaker box is an eye sore now.
What should i do, paint it the same color as my backdrop or try and make a cover for it with some hardboard material?

























As you can see with the last picture, the box sticks away from the wall probably 1/2 inch. so it kinda screws me for making a cover..


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

At the club we painted over ours...after a while, you really don't "see" it until you need to reset a breaker. If it were mine, I'd improve on that with a board painted to match that attached with magnets glued to the back.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Build a removable mountain and stick it in front of the box. Big Ed did a similar thing for a gas meter.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I was thinking a simple cover. Shay's magnet-attachment idea is the icing on the cake.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

Good ideas

My log debarker is going in this section. Logs get loaded into black hopper then are fed into the debarker for my papermill. I cant pull of a mountain here unless its like a steep rock face, the rock face may seem out of place


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

paint a forest on the board. if people ask how come you didnt cut them trees down say, well we didnt contract to cut that strip.

i guess you guess i watch swamp loggers.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Not to rain on the parade, but I believe it is illegal to have something like a train layout in front of a breaker box. Especially if you're covering it up with another panel.

http://www.compliance.gov/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/fastfacts_electricalpanelaccess.pdf

Just something to think about. I realize that many people probably ignore that rule.

Otherwise, I'd go for the paint. If something happens somewhere in your home's electrical system, you really don't want to have to take any extra steps to get to the box to cut power if needed.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Paint it blue and hide the seams with strategically placed trees or obstructions (maybe a building flat.)


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I just had a new breaker box installed this morning. Looks just like yours. My other
one was smaller. Breaker box is not in my new layout room, but I do have the water main
to contend with. It will mess with my around the walls layout. I am going to frame around the water pipe and have an access door to the main water shut off. Have to be able to get to it also quickly.

I like the idea of a piece of plywood with magnets on the back to cover your breaker box or use the same material as your back drop. Doorways are a much bigger problem than that breaker box.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Paint it!
Like santafe158 pointed out, it's really illegal to cover it up.
And Your insurance company would have a way out of a claim if God Forbid something were to happen!
And Like sstlaure stated just use landscaping things to hide the seams.


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## alman (Oct 22, 2012)

*Its aa*

The National Electric Code requires min. 3'0" 
there are several rules defined in section 110.26 of the NEC; for 600 volts or less it is:





left to right the minimum clearance is 30" or the width of the equipment, whichever is larger
in height, there should be 6' 6'' minimum height to stand in front of the equipment (exception for dwelling units for panels 200 amps or less)
the depth in front of the equipment varies depending on the voltage and surfaces of the opposite wall behind you: if the voltage is 150 volts to ground or less the depth of clearance is 30": as stated above; if the voltage is higher it depends of whether the opposite wall is insulated or not: if insulated the depth is 3' 6", if not insulated (such as cement block) the depth is 48"



I refer to these rules as the "refrigerator rule": the clearance in front of the equipment in question requires a dedicated clear space roughly the size of a large refrigerator


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## midlifekrisiz (Jan 29, 2013)

alman said:


> I don't like to rain on anyone's parade.


then knock it off


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I go with the magnetic cover. If we wanted to get "legal" most of us would never drive again!! Bet there are a few here who have wired in a few things like outlets and such that might not meet code in a lot of places. We all fudge the legal aspect most of the time. 
Next time you take a drive, look around at intersections to see how many stop before breaking the plane of that big white line???


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## alman (Oct 22, 2012)

midlifekrisiz said:


> then knock it off



DON'T GET








Please do not shoot the messenger !


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

paint over it'same as the backdrop. like someone said you wont "see" it after a while )


wingnut163 said:


> ... swamp loggers.


never heard of it, but it sounds amazing! I gotta acquire a copy "some how" :sly:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Have your little artist paint some more pictures and paste them on it. 

Tell him/her to try to make a train picture. :thumbsup:


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Pfunmo said:


> I go with the magnetic cover. If we wanted to get "legal" most of us would never drive again!! Bet there are a few here who have wired in a few things like outlets and such that might not meet code in a lot of places. We all fudge the legal aspect most of the time.
> Next time you take a drive, look around at intersections to see how many stop before breaking the plane of that big white line???


As I said, it's just something to think about. People can do what they want. I never said he had to tear down his layout because it is closer than 3 feet to the panel. I'm not a code inspector. :laugh:


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

big ed said:


> Have your little artist paint some more pictures and paste them on it.
> 
> Tell him/her to try to make a train picture. :thumbsup:


Lol uncle ed
Yeah my 5 year old drew me a picture of my layout with a train on it and told me to hang it on the wall...

Yeah boo hoo my layout in front of breaker box is staying. I will just opt for the easy way out and paint over the box.

I do not know how to hide the seams going vertical since the panel gets pretty tall but being painted is still better then not having any backdrop at all...

9 times out of 10 any inspector that wants to be a a$$ can nick pick at anything and usually find something to write you up for so i will just leave it at that.

If for some odd reason my house catches on fire, running down to the basement to flip of breakers would be my least concern, they generally kick off when there is a problem to begin with... besides id be more busy with saving my trains and my kids...

Thanks guys. I will just paint the panel up


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

You need to be practicle about this. Do not cover the panel with anything solid. Paint it,wall paper it,stick a picture to it but do not block it in any way. Leave yourself access to the breakers because you never know when one will trip and need to be reset. Same thing for any utility equipment like a gas meter or a water meter or electric meter. Also don't block wall outlets or light switches,windows,doors or ventilation inlets/outlets or any plumbing.
If a fireman has to go to work at your home he isn't going to think twice before he takes his axe to your train layout to get to the breaker box or the gas meter. Your train will be history and a fireman could be seriously hurt trying to protect your property. THINK FIRST! 
One more thing: Label the panel in good sized letters or paint the door to the panel a bright color like red or yellow so it can be seen in case of emergency. The panel MUST be easily seen to be of any use to you or a person like a fireman who may need to find it fast. Pete


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

Well as a fire inspector I have to side with safety on this. I make write ups of buildings everyday for having the breaker boxes blocked in some way or another. It really isn't safe. If at some point the box shorts out you have all that flammable material that close and could catch fire and spread pretty quickly. Yes building codes, OSHA and the NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) all say there must be a clearance around the breaker panels.
The other flip of the coin is that if something did happen and it was found that the box was blocked and added to fire spread your home owners insurance could question it and refuse the claim too.
Let me relate it to you this way. When going through training classes over and over here on our airfield the instructor always said "if an aircraft crashes" and I kept arguing its not if its "When" because sooner or later something will go wrong. We did have an aircraft go down one day, not real bad but bad enough, after it was all said and done the Battalion Chief at the time said you were right it is when not if.
What ever you decide to do just exam the idea carefully and do it in the safest manner possible for you, your family and the firefighters that may have to come in and take care of the when.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

*k*

thanks guys. I will make sure to put a pad lock on the breaker panel and label it explosive if opened...




Just kidding. 

I will make sure the panel is accessible and thank you guys for the input, i will be sure to make sure its not obstructed.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Very well said Davidfd85. The insurance angle is something to think about too. They will use any excuse to keep from having to pay you and a blocked breaker box would be an excellent excuse for them. Good point. Pete


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

broox said:


> paint over it'same as the backdrop. like someone said you wont "see" it after a while )
> 
> never heard of it, but it sounds amazing! I gotta acquire a copy "some how" :sly:



its on TV. and there is all so one called American loggers. they work in main.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm all for doing things the safe way but I think it is really being overdone in this case. The idea that a fireman is going to go through the ordeal of finding and opening a breaker panel just does not fit with the training and experience I've seen. Codes vary from place to place but in general what I see is when they show up and smoke is coming out so that they need the power cut, they chop the feeder if there is not an outside disconnect. A fireman who would show up at a burning building and go to the basement to cut off the power would not be a person I would want on my crew for long! 

My point on the issue is that it is good to be safe and follow the rules but most of us go through a process of deciding what is a real hazard and what is not so much. A cover on the box is not a biggie to me as you will still have access and you will still know where it is. Most likely nobody else will ever be looking for it without you. If you use a desktop computer there is likely to be a far greater fire hazard right under your feet.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

Pfunmo said:


> I'm all for doing things the safe way but I think it is really being overdone in this case. The idea that a fireman is going to go through the ordeal of finding and opening a breaker panel just does not fit with the training and experience I've seen. Codes vary from place to place but in general what I see is when they show up and smoke is coming out so that they need the power cut, they chop the feeder if there is not an outside disconnect. A fireman who would show up at a burning building and go to the basement to cut off the power would not be a person I would want on my crew for long!
> 
> My point on the issue is that it is good to be safe and follow the rules but most of us go through a process of deciding what is a real hazard and what is not so much. A cover on the box is not a biggie to me as you will still have access and you will still know where it is. Most likely nobody else will ever be looking for it without you. If you use a desktop computer there is likely to be a far greater fire hazard right under your feet.


Enuf said. I agree 100%


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, my power panel is behind a set of folding doors in the basement, and it was that way when it was inspected after the house was built. No mention of any issue with that placement was mentioned, didn't even get a passing glance. If I can hide it in a closet, I'm sure that putting a decoration in front of it isn't much of an issue.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

First thing our fire department does is break every window in the whole house! Even if the fire is out when they arrive! If the fire is out why can't they just open the windows?
I asked the chief if they did that to feed more air to the fire so the house burns quicker. 

I got 21 all new windows and a new picture window in the family room and a new bay window in the living room. 
The whole house has new windows, and as I was told they are the best on the market.  
They all say that.  New roof, a tear off with 6' ice damming and 40 year shingles. All new siding, best on the market, , new front door, metal with fancy window, new back door & all new gutters. The only windows that are original are the basement windows. Collectable, they are original 1950 vintage. 

I TOLD THEM THEY BETTER NOT BREAK ALL MY WINDOWS! 

I agree if the house is on fire I don't think our fire department will run down the basement to the breaker box as all they have to do is pull the meter outside.
Besides, they are too busy breaking windows. After breaking all the windows they start chopping holes in the roof. 
I think they do more damage then the fire. 

Just make sure like mentioned to leave access to it, mark it so everyone will know where it is.

I asked the gas man about the cover I was making for the gas meter, I added a section that you can lift up to see the meter numbers but the main shutoff is visible and well marked with a big pipe wrench next to it. Just in case I have to shut it off quick. He said that is fine as if they had to they would just turn it off at the street in the event of a gas leak. He said they wouldn't even try to enter the house to do it as it is safer to do it outside.


I took a second look at yours, the layout runs right under it huh?
It would be kind of hard to work in that box the way you have it.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

lol ed.

Yes and no the layout is only 24 inches wide at this spot, for a tiny lil old man then yeah it might be to far of a reach or to hard to add/replace any breakers in the box. But for me you just suck it up and get the job done, i guess thats the attitude i get from being a diesel mechanic.

Am i worried about a fire, yes, am i worried about a fire man trying to find my breaker box? no. Like you say, they are too busy creating more damage to your house then worrying about a silly breaker box that they can just cut power to the house from the outside and continue to break windows and smashing holes in your house:laugh: I think the firemen get angry being woken up at 230am so they take their anger out on your home...But who else would run through a burning building to save a life right... enuf said

I dont own a 40 + year old house either, with bad wiring, and breakers poping... My house is fairly new being 6 years old.

I think this thread got off track from the questions i originally asked. I dont want this to turn into a hes right and your wrong kind of thread. Im happy with everyones input on how to cover up or disguise the breaker box, and everyones concerns as well.


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## dannyrandomstate (Jan 1, 2012)

I vote for painting it. I figure once painted and it has some scenery it will blend in fairly well. And you'll be more focused on running trains, and not so much the box. The thought of it being there will fade and you won't even notice it.


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

Ok as for the firefighter looking for the breaker box I see two totally different scenarios here. Yes they pull up smoke and flames coming from the windows yeah they will pull the meter or call electric company to cut power at the pole. That is totally the right way to do it.
Second scenario is there is a problem in just one room, not a full blown fire just a small short or something the like. Will they pull the meter and kill the whole house, not so sure, it is the commander on scene call. But more than likely they will look for the breaker box and just kill that area of the house.

Now the one about pulling up and breaking every window in the house right from the get go. No that is wrong in so many ways I could spend hours explaining the reasons why, from the science behind why it is wrong to the general publics view of why its wrong to the how much of a bad practice from a firefighter safety point it is.
But then I've heard people say the damm fire department did more damage than the fire, but then they don't know the reason why that wall was torn open, or the ceiling was pulled or why that window was broken down either. A well trained, well practiced department knows what needs to be done and when.
After 33 years as a firefighter I'll leave it at that.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Paint it to make it look like a switch tower.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

As far as nj goes, your home is your castle. Inspectors do not come into single family homes and tell the owners what to do. As per code yea you guys are right but after the home is built/ renovated the homeowner can basicly block anything (in nj anyway) and cannot get in trouble. As for a FD staindpoint I never had combustables catch fire from a working electrical panel. Here in nj we do not pull meeters, we will isolate breakers or kill the main breaker to the house. Too much liability for the electrical co. If we pulled meeters. Ed I hope you had good insurance ( all new matching windows are good) As for breaking them I was not there but there could be a myriad of reasoning for it. Back to the main question paint it make it blend it. If needed people will find it. If you are worried put a sticker on the celling marking it. Have fun ! (Hide it)


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Here in nj we do not pull meeters, we will isolate breakers or kill the main breaker to the house. Too much liability for the electrical co. If we pulled meeters.



Well if the house is on fire that would seem like a stupid thing to do, walk in and then hunt for the basement entry, then go down and try to locate the breaker box to shut off the main. And risk your life as the whole house could collapse on you. Just to kill the electric?

When the meter is right there on the outside, easily accessible. 
Also when you kill the main on the box there is still electric in it, it is still hot inside. The only way to kill all the electric is pull the meter or disconnect at the pole.

You pull the meter and all electric is stopped going into the house. A much safer, quicker and convenient way to kill the power. I don't think liability from the electric company is of concern, when a fire is raging on in the house. Same thing for the gas shutoff, you don't go into the burning house to shut off the main, you do it at the street. ( My meter is in the basement.)

Some towns in NJ do indeed inspect houses, mine doesn't. Some inspect for things like if you have propane cylinders or 5 gals of gas in the garage or house, a no no. Blocked doors, portable propane heaters in the house, wiring nightmares found in some basements, etc.

If you have any work done the electric inspector does come to inspect the work? Right? Well maybe not in Newark.  
If the box is covered or hidden I don't think he would give you a passing grade.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, pseg does not want us to pull meters. Its there equipment we are not allowed to touch it. If we cannot gain access to the basement we call them to disconect outside. (Poll, underground etc..) the same is true for the gas. Most meters in essex county are not in the basement ( I think this holds true for most of nj). Some towns do have different inspections (not fire) for single family homes. If the house is a rental different laws apply. But as for a single family home, owner occupied, fire inspectors can just suggest things to do.they can't force you to do anything. They are not covered in the uniform fire code. If you have work done or are building a new house then the inspectors can mandate things, bring the house up to code etc(this includes fire inspectors), after they are gone however they really can't do anything. Appoligize for the broken English etc baby is helping me type!


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

http://youtu.be/PlLPogmB8M8

...and yes, my brother is a fire inspector and I am a building inspector. He hates Fire Marshall Bill, I love it...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also , when my father was a ff they did pull meters, I think this changed because someone was killed removing a meter. In nj with pseg anyways.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, it's not so easy to pull the meters anymore. They have serious steel collars around them with a special key. Unless the FD has the special key, they're not taking the meter out.

How does one get killed removing the meter unless they stick their hand inside the open box?


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

When do they pull the meter? After the fire is out or while fighting the fire?

FWIW A week after we bought this place the fire insp was here to verify the installation of new hard wired smoke detectors and because of a ng fired furnace a hard wired co detector. All detectors have battery back up. Santa Claus brings us new batteries every year and I get them on my birthday in June. 10 years later we get a letter from the city saying time to change them. If low income the city will provide financial assistance and a installer if need be. If a DIY project as we did notify the city for inspection.

Pain in the butt, big govt intrusion, etc, yada,yada,yada. I plan on being cremated but I do want to be dead when it's done and not die as a result of being burned to death. KWIM?


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Jack,
Good plan about waiting until dead before cremation!
The wife and I just bought complete funeral prearrangements and also gave them VERY specific instructions to do the same. :laugh: :laugh:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Grj, the incedent was before my time but I can say that when our power co. (Pseg) pulls a meter they use insulated gloves as there is a rare chance of arching. This alone could kill you. Other seneriosI could have been that the firfighter was wet when attempting it or a primary wire could have been down backfeeding power to the house. Or any other senerio you can think of. As we do not posses the special equipment that the power co has, we leave it to them. In a life or death senerio we might pull the meter but that senerio has not yet accured . Reguler SOPs for a fire require the power co respond asap.These are rare occurances and perfet storm senerios, but I have seen thinks like this happen.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

15 years ago I was working on a property with a pool. Inside the pool room was a panel that had been...um..."modified" over the years. Because the panel was old, breakers to fit were hard to come by...soooo...each successive maintenance person simply bent the buss bars to fit whatever breaker they bought at the hardware store---there was no panel cover. Because it was behind the entry door, it apparently never got gigged in an inspection before.

One day I tried to reset a breaker that had popped, only to have sparklies and magic blue smoke of the first order in response. I bought a new panel and breakers and put it in. Once it came time to wire up the high voltage stuff, I went to the meter pan to find that the security tag had long been cut off and the meter ring laying on the ground. I popped out the meter, wired the line in, popped it back in, then called the power company to report a missing security tag. They put a new one on and that was that...

...until...

...the next year's pool inspection.

PI- _"When did the new panel get put in?"_

Me- _"Last year..."_

PI- _"I don't recall issuing a permit for that...who was your contractor?"_

Me- _"Well sir...I actually did it...we just didn't have the money for a contractor and I told the manager that I could do it."_

PI- ...after a pause to look over the wiring... _"...nice work...please don't do that again."_

Me- _"Thank you sir...I will remember not to do that again."_

Still there as far as I know...:thumbsup:


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## Sawdust (Oct 26, 2010)

You have already gone too far to worry about your safety & being within code. Closets, access panels to match decor etc. are all different from building a layout in front of your panel. Your emergency access is already obstructed & adding anything else will increase your problem. Being a self employed contractor for 30 plus years I have to suggest what you have already been told by a few & don't want to hear. Like mentioned if you God forbid have a fire regardless of where it starts you won't collect a dimes worth of insurance because of being in violation.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yep, first thing I would do after breaking all the windows and chopping holes in the roof would be to go there and chop up your layout. 
After I packed your trains. 

Why won't you listen cousin?
Get an electrician in there and move the box somewhere else, then you can rip that box out and add the backdrop. And then be legal. 
When you do it upgrade to 200 amp. 

What is the extension cord shown, is that coming out of the box?


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

I just covered mine with sheet rock. It looks much better now.


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## RedJimmy1955 (Aug 23, 2021)

Semi retired house inspector here......I agree that you should limit your intentions to just painting some scenery on the box cover. You've done yourself an ILLEGAL favor by putting the train layout in front of the panel box, where hopefully you can still reach the breakers!!! Might suck that you did wrong here...but own up to it and keep it "open accessible"
as possible. Forget about hiding it, since IN AN EMERGENCY you may NOT be the one who will need to find it!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

RedJimmy1955 said:


> Semi retired house inspector here......I agree that you should limit your intentions to just painting some scenery on the box cover. You've done yourself an ILLEGAL favor by putting the train layout in front of the panel box, where hopefully you can still reach the breakers!!! Might suck that you did wrong here...but own up to it and keep it "open accessible"
> as possible. Forget about hiding it, since IN AN EMERGENCY you may NOT be the one who will need to find it!


While that's still good advice, this thread is almost 9-1/2 years old and did not need to be reopened.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Yes pools can be a problem, Shaygetz. In my case the breaker caught fire! I looked up the replacement and found a warning about these particular breakers were notorious for catching fire and hence not recommend. I had an electrician replace the entire panel and put in a ground rod at the pool remote panel. It was easier to sleep at night.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lemonhawk said:


> Yes pools can be a problem, Shaygetz. In my case the breaker caught fire! I looked up the replacement and found a warning about these particular breakers were notorious for catching fire and hence not recommend. I had an electrician replace the entire panel and put in a ground rod at the pool remote panel. It was easier to sleep at night.


Federal pacific im guessing, yea, bad news. If you have anything that has that name on it replace it.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

You can paint the cover. Or you could add a backdrop piece attached to a hinge that swings open revealing the breaker panel door (which would open separately).

Also, this:
The National Electrical Code [NEC 110.26 (A)(1&2)] *requires a clear area for access and working in front of an electric panel that is 2.5 feet (30”) wide, 3 feet (36”) deep, and 6.5 feet (78”) high for a regular residential 120/240-volt panel*.
Not mentioned but it’s advisable to also avoid putting a breaker panel directly below a bathtub, sink, dishwasher, etc.

While yours looks “accessible” in terms of reaching it to open & turn off breakers, it is not accessible for maintenance purposes (i.e. if a breaker fails & needs replacing, which happens more than you’d think). Pertaining to access, your best solution would be to modify the benchwork so that the 3ft-4ft span in front of the panel is a lift out removable section.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> While that's still good advice, this thread is almost 9-1/2 years old and did not need to be reopened.


I guess they missed this.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> While that's still good advice, this thread is almost 9-1/2 years old and did not need to be reopened.





Gramps said:


> I guess they missed this.


I plead guilty! And throw myself upon the mercy of the court.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

OilValleyRy said:


> I plead guilty! And throw myself upon the mercy of the court.


Well, yeah, but once someone reopens it, it looks like a current threat (pun intended).


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Southern said:


> I just covered mine with sheet rock. It looks much better now.


Now that's funny, I don't care how old the post is!


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I was looking at the breaker when it caught fire! Luckily it also lost the electrical connection and went out.


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## WdVal (6 mo ago)

I was just involved in a multi hundred thousand dollar remodel job from an electrical fire. Store was closed over 6 months from litigations! Bottom line is: the breakers did not trip! But the option to stop the spread was available from the panel boxes because they were not obstructed! Took over 6 months for 3 adjusters to agree what to do & still are deciding who is to pay! These are things that the insurance adjusters are looking at. Who is at fault! Who is to pay! They dont want to compensate even though we pay thousands of dollars every year for coverage! They want to pin it on anybody they can not to shell out the money you paid! Keep it safe, paint the panel cover, move on!


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Circuit breakers don’t work the way most people assume they do. In order for them to trip they need to detect something like 180% rating usage. Maybe higher than that even. So, if you plugged in multiple 18A things on a 15A circuit, all running, it’d probably trip. *BUT *if you overloaded that circuit by just 10-20% for a long period of time, the breaker will not detect it, resulting in a fire. Say 14A running on a 15A circuit all day every day, yeah it’ll burn down the house. They detect a large sudden surge/burst, not a constant small overload that melts insulation. FYI circuits are rated for 80% of their “label.”. So a 20A circuit safely maxes out at 16A for constant usage. But people also misunderstand how that usage rating works. Most think you add up all the plugged in items (i.e. in your kitchen) on a given circuit and they must total less than i.e. 20A. Nope. Any single device plugged in to any duplex on the circuit must be less than 20A, less than 16A really to be within the 80%.
Think of them as less sensitive GFCIs that need a lot more to cause them to trip.

Had a similar remodel job once. A tree branch came down on a power line to a house. One of the conductors met the neutral when the line snapped. Inside that home, the short caused the breaker panel to explode off the wall and fly across the room. The home practically burnt down to the foundation; nearly so. The masonry and slab survived. Insurance jobs are the worst. More red tape than US Congress.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

OilValleyRy said:


> Circuit breakers don’t work the way most people assume they do. In order for them to trip they need to detect something like 180% rating usage. Maybe higher than that even. So, if you plugged in multiple 18A things on a 15A circuit, all running, it’d probably trip. *BUT *if you overloaded that circuit by just 10-20% for a long period of time, the breaker will not detect it, resulting in a fire. Say 14A running on a 15A circuit all day every day, yeah it’ll burn down the house. They detect a large sudden surge/burst, not a constant small overload that melts insulation. FYI circuits are rated for 80% of their “label.”. So a 20A circuit safely maxes out at 16A for constant usage. But people also misunderstand how that usage rating works. Most think you add up all the plugged in items (i.e. in your kitchen) on a given circuit and they must total less than i.e. 20A. Nope. Any single device plugged in to any duplex on the circuit must be less than 20A, less than 16A really to be within the 80%.
> Think of them as less sensitive GFCIs that need a lot more to cause them to trip.
> 
> Had a similar remodel job once. A tree branch came down on a power line to a house. One of the conductors met the neutral when the line snapped. Inside that home, the short caused the breaker panel to explode off the wall and fly across the room. The home practically burnt down to the foundation; nearly so. The masonry and slab survived. Insurance jobs are the worst. More red tape than US Congress.


I always thought almost the opposite? Breakers are set to trip when over the full amprage ( overload) or at 80 percent of the amprage at a constant load. The wires are rated for more. So they can handle the constant load, this is so you dont have fires. But you are correct they are not ment to have a constantly maxed out load on then. Electrical fires I see are backfeeds as you mentioned. Older stuff arching catching the surounding area on fire, and muti plug adapters or extention cords. Not too many from overloaded wires where the breakers don't trip. With the exception of the federal pacific panels. ( also HD or Lowes just had a pannel recall).


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Yep. If you’ve ever seen an outlet with the soot above it, that’s a telltale sign of the outlet cooking from constant overload. It’ll start to melt eventually. That happening is kind of a problem.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

GFCI's do not provide any over current protection.


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## Andreash (Dec 30, 2018)

Sell your house, problem solved 😁☕🍩


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Andy57 said:


> GFCI's do not provide any over current protection.


That is correct. I was comparing their sensitivity, but in terms of shorts and did not specify that. A GFCI will detect & trip faster than a human can perish (i.e. bathing with a toaster), while a circuit breaker is much less sensitive in detection. Likewise a utility breaker (above a transformer) requires a short equal to multiple humans being electrocuted before it will trip. Knew a guy who accidentally demonstrated that. So sensitivity “scales up” as you back track up the distribution. OC protection is the same sort of graduated concept.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

If I’m seeing the photo correctly, it seems your layout restricts access to the breaker box unless your layout is either on wheels or easily moved. 

On the other hand if you cover it up either by painting it, making it part of the scenery or blocking it with a mountain or other structure it could be very dangerous in an emergency situation unless you put a sign in front of it.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Well as pointed out, the OP was from 2013, and author hasn’t been around since 2017; 
so this has sort of become IMO an open discussion for the general membership on what *NOT* to do & why.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Andy57 said:


> GFCI's do not provide any over current protection.


You have to be more specific. The GFCI circuit breaker commonly found in your circuit breaker box does indeed combine over current protection with GFCI protection. You are correct that a GFCI outlet normally doesn't also have over current protection.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

GFCI breakers are NOT commonly found in house hold breaker panels. Builders and new home owners do not want to pay that unless they have too because of local code.
For 15 and 20 Amp circuits one can buy ten GFCI recpts. for the cost of one GFCI breaker.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

You want specific.
Circuit breakers are installed to protect the circuit. Not people.
Why do I have to be specific when others giving false info don't?
Because I am a newby? Post count?


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Any pool filter that is hardwired requires a GFCI breaker as per NEC. Pools with hardwired filters are fairly common place. Plug-in filters (pool, jacuzzi, etc) only require a GFCI outlet.
And I didn’t provide false information. My comparison in stepped sensitivity is correct. It’s designed that way on purpose. Circuit breakers cost less to reset than utility breakers on a transformer cost to reset, or replace. Comparing a different but similar aspect to make a point is not false. It’s comparative, which is also fairly common in making comparisons.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Sorry, did not realize this posting was so old. Well, we have GFCI breakers in our breaker box in the mechanical room that has all our pool equipment. In addition we have GFI’s in the electrical outlets inside our pool area.


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