# Basket case: Troubleshooting a dead 681 ?



## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I went to an estate auction a few weeks ago and bought a very rough Lionel 681.

This engine is a basket case story that keeps getting worse!!!!

It is missing front and rear trucks, the draw bar, the front boiler, the front lamp assembly. I basically have the motor, e-unit, the frame and wheels, and a smoke unit and a shell in very poor condition.

The engine won't move at all on the track. The e-unit is not cycling at all. 

Questions, for you all, if you don't mind:

Is it possible to 'jump' power from a transformer to the motor, using two wires, essentially bypassing the e-unit?

If so, which two contacts should I use on my postwar LW?

Where exactly do I need to touch those two wires on the motor? 

Is it possible at all? 

I have more questions...but thank you so much, in advance, for helping!!!!


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Here is another set of questions:

I've had rough and troublesome engines in the past, and _sometimes_, leaving them on the track with the power turned on for a while will coax them back to life. 

I set the 681 on the track, and left the power on for a short while. When I picked it back up, one of the two roller pick ups was super hot. The spring on the pick up assembly is broken on that side.

The other pick up roller was not hot.

I also noticed that the circuit breaker in my vintage postwar LW was tripping numerous times while the 681 was on the track. 

I haven't removed the pick up assembly yet.

Do you think it is missing the fiber insulating washer that is used on the pick up assembly? 

Can I make an insulating washer from the cardboard in a cereal box, just to get me by? The next train show is in 2 weeks, and who knows if there will be any parts dealers there.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Clovis , some pictures please. You have a short someware, it could be anyware. Hard to tell without pictures. You can jump motors, but im unsure how on the 681. How does the wireing look?


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

The wires look fine, surprisingly. I've seen my fair share of cracked and brittle wires on PW engines, but these are in very good condition.

I may have found the problem. It is missing a brush.

Would a missing brush cause it to short out and get hot? Would it cause the circuit breaker in the transformer to trip?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

A missing brush would definitely cause the engine not to run. However I would never let an engine like this just sit on the track. The hot rollers and all suggest a short and you are asking for trouble letting it sit.

I would start by repairing the missing brush then I would start looking for the short. A photo of the chassis and wiring would help.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Basket case 681*

I am going to presume you have the shell off, as you stated the condition of the wires. The 681 and 671m-1 motors are basically the same motors, but with different brush plates on the rear. If you have the shell off, and access to the motor, your best bet is to remove the motor from the frame. Just make sure you mark the 3 wires coming off the e-unit, to know where to put them back. Unsolder the 3 wires from the brush plate, and unscrew the motor from the frame. This way you can test just the motor. To test the motor with a transformer, you need to strap the center wire to either of the two side contacts, which ever one you chose. Connect one lead from your transformer to the ground lug that the field wire is soldered to. Now touch the other transformer wire to the other contact lug on the brush plate. If the motor is good, it will run in one direction. You can then move the strap from the center contact to the opposite contact, and touch the wire to the contact you just took strap from. The motor should run in the opposite direction. 
While you have the motor out, without the e unit wires connected, is a good time to remove the brush plate, and inspect the brushes, clean them or replace them depending on condition. Clean off the copper surface of the armature, and reassemble. 
These motors are some of the easiest to work on, as long as they are removed from the frame. Any questions, just ask.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

BigAl56 said:


> A missing brush would definitely cause the engine not to run. However I would never let an engine like this just sit on the track. The hot rollers and all suggest a short and you are asking for trouble letting it sit.
> 
> I would start by repairing the missing brush then I would start looking for the short. A photo of the chassis and wiring would help.


I didn't let her sit for too long. 

I was basically trying to see if the e-unit would cycle, and then got up to wash my hands. I doubt that she was on a powered track for 3 or 4 minutes, just guessing. I wouldn't have let her sit that long had I noticed the missing brush.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

teledoc said:


> I am going to presume you have the shell off, as you stated the condition of the wires. The 681 and 671m-1 motors are basically the same motors, but with different brush plates on the rear. If you have the shell off, and access to the motor, your best bet is to remove the motor from the frame. Just make sure you mark the 3 wires coming off the e-unit, to know where to put them back. Unsolder the 3 wires from the brush plate, and unscrew the motor from the frame. This way you can test just the motor. To test the motor with a transformer, you need to strap the center wire to either of the two side contacts, which ever one you chose. Connect one lead from your transformer to the ground lug that the field wire is soldered to. Now touch the other transformer wire to the other contact lug on the brush plate. If the motor is good, it will run in one direction. You can then move the strap from the center contact to the opposite contact, and touch the wire to the contact you just took strap from. The motor should run in the opposite direction.
> While you have the motor out, without the e unit wires connected, is a good time to remove the brush plate, and inspect the brushes, clean them or replace them depending on condition. Clean off the copper surface of the armature, and reassemble.
> These motors are some of the easiest to work on, as long as they are removed from the frame. Any questions, just ask.


*Wow!* Thank you for the reply!

I do have the shell off.

I will pull the motor as soon as I get another brush, which should be in 2 weeks, at the next train show.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Since no one has posted this here you go. It's a link to the repair guide from Olsens. I'd start with a complete cleaning and lubrication using motor oil on everything EXCEPT the work and mating spur gear, for that Lucas Red-N-Tacky grease. Odds are, it's all dirty and sticky from sitting with old lube.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-47.htm

Carl


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Here is some more information about your basket case. I would also take the e unit out, and clean it thoroughly, and test it. Possibly even replace it (100-25 e unit). Going from your list of missing items, you will need 671-196 boiler front; 671-202 rear trucks complete w/ drawbar; 671-93 front truck; 671-223 lamp cord w/washer; 76-73 lamp socket; L1447 clear 18v bulb; and 100-25 e unit if needed. That should take care of your missing items. Even though you have a *681*, the parts are identical as a 671, and is what you need. I have restored two 2020's and a 681 in the past few months.
As far as the body or shell goes, if it is as bad as it sounds, I would suggest stripping it so it can be repainted. For stripping the paint, I personally use "Castrol Super Clean" (purple container from Walmart is cheapest price. Get a plastic container that would be large enough to submerse the whole shell, and use the Super Clean full strength, to cover the shell. Let it soak in the solution for at least 6 hours or more, and then take it out of solution, and use an old toothbrush, to scrub off the loose paint. Get it down to bare metal. When satisfied, rinse it off with warm soapy water, and let it dry completely. Just before repaint, wipe it all down with "Isopropyl Alcohol", yes rubbing alcohol, to remove any grease from the shell. The best paint I have found to closely resemble factory paint is "Krylon Satin Black". Finish it off with the paint, and use dry transfer numbers.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Wow, fella's...thank you for the replies!!!

Thank you for the link to Olsens. I had glanced at some stuff on the 681, and didn't think to look at the 671. 

If I am not mistaken, the only big difference is the brush plates are different on the 671 and 681. My dad has a 671 and a 2020, and I had him snap a pic of the brush plates on the 671.

I have an old K-Line Lionel repair guide. While I consider that book to be the bible of information, it is lacking greatly on turbines, at least what I can tell.

*I do want to say thank you for your help!!!!* I know quite a bit about postwar Lionel, but my troubleshooting skills are nearly non-existent. Thank you for taking the time to help me. I feel that every repair helps me understand troubleshooting just a little bit more. (My real goal is to be able to diagnose any totally dead Lionel engine.)

Again, thank you!!!!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The Greenberg book is good. Also make sure what version you have. It says the early versions are different then the later ones and some parts are not interchangeable. It does not say what parts. The smoke unit for sure but It mentions a horizontal e unit. I believe if yours has the extra weight its a later model. If it dosent , it might be a good idea to add some weight, it helps with wheel slippage.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The 671/2020 motors requiring e units have a 671M-5 brushplate. The 681-100 motor uses a 681-105 brushplate. Basically the diecast motor body is pretty much identical, and the brushplates can be interchanged, as I have a 2020 turbine that came with a 681-100 motor. I wanted to put it to original looking, and swapped out the brushplate, with the correct looking one for a 2020.

You mention that you have the Kline repair manual. The Greenberg repair manual is almost identical, and if you have one, you don't need the other for parts, etc.. Olsens Library is my next go to, to find whatever I can't find in the repair manual, for part numbers, or description of a particular item. It is invaluable as a great source of information. 

The brushes for the 681-100 motor use part 622-121 brushes; the 671M-1 uses 2020M-33 brushes with 2020M-34 brush springs. If you want to look at similar motors in the Kline manual, look up the 736 & 746 locos, and also look at the 671RM motor (Electronic motor), and you will see the brushplates will interchange. 

Excluding the Horizontal motor with drive shaft (1946 version), the other Turbine motors seem to be one of the simplist and easy to work on.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Early 671 and Its O27 twin 2020 locomotives did not have an e-unit. Direction was changed by reversing a plug into the back of the exposed brushplate. They also used the bulb type smoke unit. This version was made only in 1946.

Since yours has the e-unit it's safe to assume you have the post 1947 model. That year the 671 was redesigned to have e-units and heater type smoke units.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Clovis, in this case the link to the 671 is correct. The one posted and the 681 are virtually identical with a few exceptions. The 671 did not have magna traction and may have nickel rimmed drivers on some versions. Only the very early (1946 version) did not have an e-unit. I've run into a few cases where I've had to look at similar engines to find correct information.

I'll second the suggestion for a Greenberg repair manual, very good to have around. 

Carl


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Thank you for the continued replies!!!

I think this 681 has Magnetraction. It sticks to both the O track that I have, and my 1950's vintage metal kitchen table.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yes, you are right, I'm thinking of th 2020.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I do have the K-line Lionel book.

I bought an older version of the Greenberg manual, but it was less useful than the K-line book that I have. I would like to have a new version of the Greenberg...it appears to have more in it than their old manuals.

Unfortunately, the K-line manual doesn't have much on the 681.

Yes, this engine does have an e-unit that is mounted on the frame above the wheel assembly.

Again, thank you so much for your continued replies!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

There are a bunch of Greenberg books, the one I have is the repair and operational guide for Lionel trains 1945 1969. It has the same diagrams as the Olsen web site. The Kline book I have wasn't useful to me, the Greenberg book has a lot more IMHO. That being said theres lots of stuff not in the books, thats where this forum comes in!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The 681 was introduced in 1950, and was available 1950, 1951, 1953. The frame on the 681 has a magnet between the wheels for magnatraction, unlike the 671 & 2020. The body of the 671, 681, 2020 are identical, as are the steam chest boiler fronts, front and rear trucks, and drawbar. The only separation is the number stamped on the cab. Concerning the 671/2020 locos, the 1946 version (first issue) didn't have an e-unit, the motor mounted horizontally, and connected to a drive shaft, and had a "smoke bulb", and a 671-11 boiler front. Also, on the 1946 version of the 671/2020, there was no slot for an e-unit, as direction was controlled by a plug and cord that was fitted into the appropriate side of the brush plate (671RM-2 brush plate).

The 681-100 motor was used in the 681, 682, 736, & 746 locos, and all of these frames have magnatraction. The main body casting on the angle mounted motors, are virtually identical, and can be interchanged with all of the mentioned locos. The major difference is the appropriate brush plate, which I have swapped on a 681-100 and a 2020M1, which runs perfectly.

If you have your 681 torn down, without the body on, you should pull out the e-unit, to test it, and clean it. I think in your original post, you said it doesn't cycle, which is why you should pull it out, and clean/repair/replace as necessary. You can test it for cycling, by taking transformer leads and connecting one side to pickup tab of the coil, and then touch the other end of the coil, on the opposite side/end of coil. This will cycle the e-unit plunger, and should rotate the roller. If it doesn't, you will probably have to completely rebuild it, or replace it. The e-unit is a 100-25 e-unit. Best place to find one, is on eBay, as most, if not all suppliers don't have them. HAVE FUN REBUILDING.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Teledoc,

I have heard that Magnetraction was not available during the Korean War...maybe for two years. 

Is that true for the 681?


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

FWIW, I've been studying this basket case 681, and as I mentioned before, this story just keeps getting worse and worse!

I bought this engine, a 6464 car, a 3520 search light car, and a N5C caboose out of an estate thant was being sold at auction. I had been at the auction for over an hour, and didn't get to inspect it before bidding. I went outside for a short break, and when I walked back inside, they were bidding on it! I almost missed italtogether, and now wish that I would have! I was shooting from the hip on this one, taking a real gamble on it, and it turned out bad, LOL.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Here is what I think happened to the 681:

Sometime, early in it's life, the engine was dropped, and dropped hard.

I discovered that one of the mounting screw studs is sheared off in the shell. The steps are sheared off too.

I also found that the rear drive axle is badly bent and is causing the wheel assembly to bind.

My guess is that after it was dropped, the axles and wheels were binding, and not allowing the engine to run correctly. I suspect that the engine was lurching forward a few inches at a time, making some one believe that the engine had an electrical problem of some sort. I can hear some dude in 1954 saying "Gimme some time with it....I can fix anything", not realizing that it was a wheel and axle issue, and not an electrical issue. I theorize that he disassembled the whole engine, and pulled the brushes, which later resulted in the loss of those parts.

My other guess, not that it matters, is that this set was bought at a garage sale, and was not purchased new by the family. The family owned stuff was in spectacular condition, other than stuff being dirty from sitting in storage. (It really was an amazing estate auction!) I also theorize that the set is too new for the son that would have owned it. He was a WWII vet, and there was a prewar set that sold before I got to the auction. I reckon the 681 could have been purchased for the WWII vet's kids, if he had any...but I really think someone in the family picked this up at a garage sale at some point.

It is a shame. The engine has Magnetraction, and very, very little roller wear on the pickups. 

The copper windings on both the e-unit and the motor tell me that this engine was stored in a very dry area. The copper is super bright, and there simply is no rust anywhere on the cars.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

A great big giant "OUCH!!!". But, it depends on what you spent for the total package, 681 loco, plus the other cars. If the body of the 681 is mostly missing and chipped paint, that can be remedied with what I sent earlier about stripping it down to original metal, and doing a repaint, and dry transfer numbers. The lamp assembly, steam chest boiler front, and the front and rear trucks w/drawbar can all be obtained. Now for the frame, that is another story. You have two courses to take, which is pulling the rear drive wheels off, removing the axle and gear, and replacing just those parts. Of course that requires wheel puller & wheel press to do that. I wouldn't suggest that if you have never done it before, or have the tools to do it. That would preferably be done at a Lionel Service (LOCAL HOBBY SHOP) that can do it for you. Only drawback is what it would cost to have it done.

Your other recourse is to find another GOOD frame assembly, with the wheelsets and good rear step. I have had luck finding what I need on eBay, and there are two (2) 681 frames up for auction right now, that would be good candidates to rebuild yours. If your e-unit tests good, as explained in my other posts, and the motor tests good, also from previous post, you could resurrect your 681. It all comes down to how much time, effort, and money you want to dump into restoration. IT CAN BE DONE. It all comes down to what you decide on your next step. Don't give up too easily.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Here are the two (2) item numbers listed on eBay for a 681 chassis, with wheelsets. 

Item 1 - #311198534408
Item 2 - #191425204579

If you decide to go this course of action, log into eBay, and put either number into the Search window, and it will take you to that item only. I would hate for you to give up on it. You decide.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Thank you, Teledoc!

At this time, I think I am going to see if I can get the motor and e-unit to run. If I can, I am going to re-access where I stand with the engine.

The bad part is that I would need a shell too, unless I am able to drill out the broken mounting screw..

Of course, if I could find the parts cheap enough, or find another junker on the cheap, I would be game for throwing some money at it. As it stands right now, even on the low side, I am guessing a minimum of $45 in parts, not including another shell.

I picked up a stunning 681 at a train show last weekend, with OB and liner, with a 12 wheel tender, also with OB and liner, and 2 full bottles of smoke pellets for $160. 

I have considered pulling that axle myself, and trying to press it back in using a bench vice. I am told that it is possible, if you are super careful. I think I am at the "whadda got to lose" point. 

What do you think??? The axle is 1.50, IRRC.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, if you got another 681 (box&liner with tender box&liner) already, and I may add you got a steal at that price, then the "Basket Case 681" could be your learning curve. Your basket case loco, would be a good one to get back together, just try and go slow, and search for the replacement parts you need. I am in the process of restoring a 2020, and getting the needed parts off of eBay. I just set a limit of what I will spend, and if the price goes over what I will pay, I let it go, and search again. You know you need brushes, so I would suggest getting probably a dozen, just to have on hand. It never hurts to have extras.

When you finally get the brushes, to replace the missing ones on the bad 681, take the brushplate off, clean that, and clean the armature surface. Install the new brushes, reassemble, and hook it up like I explained in an earlier post. One lead to the ground lug of the field coil. Strap the center brush plate contact to either side, (this closes that half of the circuit), and then touch the other lead from transformer to the opposite brush plate contact. It should run in one direction only. Reverse the strap, center to other side, and touch the other contact. That should run, in the opposite direction. IF that all works, you know your motor is good to go. Test the e-unit as I explained before, and make sure it cycles. It will probably need a good cleaning, (aerosol contact cleaner) works good for that. 

You can most likely get the broken screw out, by using a "Grabit Screw Extractor", that they show on "Infomercials" on TV. I bought one, to get a screw out of another loco, and it worked as they say it does. I bought mine on eBay for a cheap price. If you can do that, then you can go ahead and strip the body paint, repaint, and re-number it, and have an almost brand new looking 681. Take the plunge and use this loco as your teachiing and learning one. It only takes parts and time, and think of it as lessons well learned.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Thank you so much, teledoc!

I own the Craftsman version of a screw extractor, somewhere in my tool chest(s). I have never used it. 

The screw is broken off flush with the mounting hole. This is going to be a tough one. My first move will be to douse it in oil, let it sit, and try to "push" or turn it out. This has worked a few times in my life...once when I REALLY needed it to when I broke a bolt on a Buick.

Thank you for the tips on repainting. I've often wondered how some people get such beautiful paint jobs on engines. I'm not really into repaints; I'd much rather have a rough original, especially since I like to run on my dad's layout. It is just a personal thing. Actually, while this basket case has plenty of play wear, it isn't all that bad. 

I am going to move forward on this, especially if the motor runs after I put brushes in it. I think your dead right on this one. I may put this one on the back burner and start looking for cheap used parts. The trucks and front boiler are going to be the hardest to find on the cheap.

I'm off to put a drop of oil on the broken mount screw.

Once again, thank you so much for all of your posts. I do appreciate it!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I was just browsing eBay for a few things, and found *2 Boiler fronts with the lamp lead included, for $9.95 + $3.95 shipping, for each. I have dealt with him before, and never had a problem with anything I have purchased from him. I am presently watching a 671 frame, with the wheels. I have a 2020 that I am working on, and I have the original frame, and a new set of wheels, but no wheel press. I also don't have a Local Hobby Shop that has one either. I may get to my original frame, in due time, but want to get my 2020 together sooner, so I am in the hunt for a chassis, with the wheels. I have everything else to complete reassembly. 

I think you will be satisfied by trying to restore the "Basket Case" and be proud that you did it yourself. It's a challenge that has to be met.....lol. By the way, the name on this side is Jerry, in N.J.. Check out what you are looking for, on eBay, and try to get it as cheap as you can get your items. I have been lucky to find most of what I have been looking for. Good Luck, and I'm glad to help, as I am going through much of what you are doing. I had trains when I was very young, that were given to 2 male cousins, back in the 1960's. The youngest had the trains, and contacted me back in Feb. to ask if I wanted my "OLD Trains" back. One of which is the 2020 I am working on now. The drive wheels got chipped, and the train was unusable, so I started to tear it apart, and rebuild it. It's been a learning experience for me too. I have that 2020, a complete 2020, and a complete 681, along with at least 10 other steam engines.*


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I forgot to give you the item numbers for the boiler fronts;

Item 1--351243006683
Item 2--351244080035


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

clovis said:


> Thank you so much, teledoc!
> 
> I own the Craftsman version of a screw extractor, somewhere in my tool chest(s). I have never used it.
> 
> ...


The real keys here are 1) LEFT handed drill bits might get lucky and spin it out and 2) getting it centered properly. I've had success with the bit "snagging" the screw and backing it out.

I've gotten a couple deals on the front and rear trucks for my 681, the rear you'll want one with the drawbar attached or you'll have a bit of work, but not real difficult. The motor is easy, one key is endplay it should be very little or it can bind the brushes if the commutator moves backwards towards it. The link I sent identifies the issue and the fix. Mine was loose and bound up in one direction.

Carl


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks, Carl.

I've gotten lucky a few times too, with a bit grabbing the broken bolt and spinning it out. It was more of dumb luck than skill, but I'll take it any way that I can get it, LOL.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I am seriously thinking about buying an axle, and trying to press it in using a bench vice.

Anyone tried it?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*681 frame only*

Here is an item on eBay which would be a good buy for the price $24 total if you were the only bidder.
Item number: 111542204653

I was tempted to buy it, if it were a 671 or 2020, but the pictures were too dark to tell for sure. I emailed him to ask what frame it was, and he confirmed it was a 681. It's your call, if you want to get a GOOD CHEAP working frame.

Good luck with your project


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Thank you, Teledoc!

*Update:* I've been swamped recently, and gave the shell to my dad to inspect. He was able to get the broken screw out of the shell, merely by hitting it with a punch and pushing the screw out.

I am pretty happy!

Train show tomorrow. Hope to pick up two mounting screws, the brush for the motor, and an axle. Of course, I'll be looking for a cheap junker 681 at the show.

FWIW, the e-unit is free. Not functioning yet, but at least it isn't gunked up. I think it will work when I figure out if the motor runs, and where the short in the engine is.

Again, thank you for your help!!!!!!


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Small update:

Picked up a new brush, and two mounting screws for this basket case.

One of the drive wheels, where I thought the axle was bent, is very loose. I suspect that if I removed the linkage/drive rods that the wheel would fall off...or close to it. 

One of the best Lionel repair guys that I ran into at the show today suggested that I try pressing the wheel back on in a vice before I try anything else.

The parts guy did not have a spring that I need for the pick up assembly. He did not have an axle either, which would have cost $5.

There is a part of me that wants to stick this junker in my junk box, and should I ever run across another junker, I might be able to build one out of the two.

I love working on Post war stuff, but this thing needs a lot of time and money...and I am feeling awfully short on time right now, and money isn't growing on trees around here either.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you got the brushes for the motor, at least you can do is check and see if the motor works. Just remove the motor from the frame, and hook up test leads, as I posted earlier, and make sure the motor works. With that said, you would only need to work on the frame problem, and the one wheel. At the least, you could just put it aside until after the holidays, and get back into it later. I wouldn't give up on it.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Small update:

I pulled the brush plate off, or at least tried to, until the plate hit the rear frame.

So, I pulled the motor out of the frame, leaving the wire leads attached to the motor. 

One of the "safety pin" looking wire...probably best called a retaining spring, to keep the brush in place, is bent. 

I have to admit that I don't exactly understand how the brush retaining springs work. Can you pull the retaining springs out, for ease of replacing the brushes? 

Are the brush retaining springs supposed to be soldered into place? 

Does the brush plate have to be removed to change the brushes?

Nonetheless, when reassembled, even with holding the brush in place, for good measure, the motor does not run. It kept tripping my PW transformer.

I am wondering if there is a huge short somewhere between the pick up assembly and the e-unit.

I am tired tonight...really tired. Right this moment, I am losing focus on the fact that this should be a learning opportunity, and not a frustration. I don't think there has ever been a time that I've had a PW Lionel problem that didn't make me a more knowledgeable train guy sometime in the future.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Clovis its always a frustrating learning experience, but sometimes , after walking away from it a bit the answer is easier. Anyway the brush springs hold tension on the brushes so the contact the commuter . They shouldn't be soldered, although I have seen that done. The brush plate does have to be removed to change , clean things. Sometimes the wires have to be undone for that but not always. It sounds like a short, and it can be any place. Can you shoot some pictures? Sometimes if more eyes are on the problem its easier to fix. You can try bypassing te e unit or power pickups by jumping power off the transformer. Or if you have a electrical tester someone here can walk you through the steps for testing. Anyways, sleep on it, it can be troubleshot , but its definitely not worth stressing out on. You can learn from this, and every thing else you get, paint, fix will be that much better. I learned a lot in one or two years here. From not knowing anything about trains to fixing stuff people would have thrown out. I can, rewire, fix units etc. Cant read a meter but if I need it someone will help me. Good luck, get some rest tomorrow is another day!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

You are going to completely remove the motor from the frame, by unsoldering the wires coming off the E-unit, unscrew the motor from the frame. You want to have just the motor in your hands, with nothing attached to it. Unscrew the brush plate from the back of the motor, and then remove the old brushes. Clean the brush plate and inside the brush plate tubes using Q-tips. With the brush plate removed, next clean the 3 segments of the armature, and the slots between the segments. The brushes should be Part 622-121 with what looks like a screw slot in the back of the brush. That is the end that goes toward the outside of brush plate. The spring is supposed to sit in that slot, to force tension on the brush, for good contact to the armature. Next you want to reassemble the brush plate onto the motor, and turn the brush slot so that the spring sits in the slot.

Now to test the motor you have 3 solder connections that the E unit was soldered to. Looking at the back of the motor, count from left to right as 1 left 2 center 3 right. You have to strap either 1+2 together or 2+3 together, the choice is yours. Now take your transformer power leads and connect one lead to the solder connection from the FIELD COIL (ground connection), and then connect the other transformer lead to the open solder contact #1 or #3, which ever one is not strapped to the center one. I do this with power already being applied from the transformer, while holding the motor in my hand. When you complete the circuit as described, the motor should run in one direction. To see if it reverses, you just switch the strapping from the center contact to the opposite side, and do the same procedure with transformer power. The motor should run in the opposite direction. If all that works, the motor should be fine to re-assemble back into the frame.

Just make sure you know which wire from the E unit connects to which motor contact, so you know how to re-wire everything back correctly. It really isn't a complicated process, and I find that the 671/2020 & 681 motors some of the easiest to get working.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Wow...thank you for the continued replies!!! They are greatly appreciated!

I wanted to toss my basket case 681 into the trash last night. After some sleep, I am feeling intrigued again.

I am wondering if there is an insulating sleeve missing. There is a part, found when the pick up roller assembly is removed, that is flat on one end, and runs up to the e-unit (?).

I am told that there is supposed to be an insulating sleeve on that brass part. Makes me wonder if the insulation is cracked, or if it is missing altogether.

Again, thank you for the replies!!!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Aha!!! That could be a definite problem, and never thought of that, with all your other problems you were explaining. Yes, the contact from the pick up collector assembly is "L" shaped with a slight curvature on the bottom part. There should be an insulating piece that goes between the frame and that piece, but electrically connected to the pick up assembly. It should also have a plastic sleeve running all the way from top to bottom of the vertical section. If the insulation isn't there, or is defective, you are essentially grounding out the circuit, and the motor will not run.

Although it seems overwhelming, and frustrating at times, it isn't really that hard. It just takes time and patience. My suggestion is that you do what I sent in previous posts, and do a removal of the E unit (which most likely needs a rebuild or replacement), remove the motor, so that it can be tested to see if it runs in both directions. These two components are the heart of the engine, and the smoke unit shouldn't have any problems, and can be left alone.

Remove the E unit and unsolder it from the motor. To test it to see if the plunger works, or it is jammed, connect one transformer lead to one end of the coil assembly, and then the other xfrmr lead to the opposite end of the coil (opposite sides of the e unit), and the plunger should activate. While doing that, watch the pawl assembly, and see if it turns the drum to the different positions of the e unit. Also take a good look at the drum and contact fingers to see if they are all making contact. The drum may be crudded up, and may need a good cleaning.

Test the motor all by itself, not connected, and free from the frame. Connect the leads from your xfrmer as explained in an earlier post to the appropriate brush plate contacts. Also, with the motor in your hands, check for excessive front to back play in the armature, or side to side wobble of the armature. There should be NO wobble side to side, but a very minimum of front to back (normal). If there is too much front to back play, it may need a new set of bearings.

Just take things a little at a time, and if you feel frustrated, walk away for a while, and then go back to it. I want to see you get this running.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I am going to show some photos on how to hook up the motor for testing it's operation, for forward, and reverse, and sections of the page on the collector assembly with the part numbers if you need any more parts.

First photo should be the strap on brush plate, then forward running hook up, the reverse running hook up, followed by the collector information. 

The photo showing the running hook ups shows 2 alligator clips which would be from your transformer, and would be the same in both reverse and forward setups. I use cords with alligator clips, to make all the connections, including connecting to transformer. You can then hold the motor in your hands, and power up the transformer to get the motor to work.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

teledoc,

I can't thank you enough for all of the assistance!!!! I am VERY thankful for your help.

Okay...I wasn't going to work on this engine today, but you have me fired up again.

I have the DUMBEST question in the world:

Where do the two fiber washers go? 

Do they go on between the spring lock washer and the pick up assembly where it screws into the frame?

My goodness, I feel like such an idiot asking...


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I need to check and make sure I have the fiber washers in the right place....


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Look at the diagram "roller assembly.jpg" and it is the correct sequence as shown in the photo.

Screw, lockwasher, nameplate, insulating washer, collector assembly, collector insulation, then screwed into frame.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

clovis said:


> My goodness, I feel like such an idiot asking...


The only "dumb" question is the one you don't ask. Glad to hear you're making progress, soon enough she'll be rolling once again. We've all been there at some point in time, so just take your time and enjoy bringing it back from the dead.

Carl


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Thank you, everyone!!! I am thankful for your positive comments and help!!!!


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I removed the pick up collector assembly again, for what seemed to be the 9th time, and I did have it installed correctly.

I pulled the collector terminal down as far as I could, and the insulating sleeve appears to be on the terminal. 

There are two wires that are soldered to the top...and I don't know how to solder.

Back to the drawing board!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I recently thought I had a problem with the roller. It was a spare wire at the transformer touching a terminal. Not good. 

I did three things though to stop any shorts. I used a gasket cement on the insulated washer and metal plate to center the holes. I used loctite on the screws. They have to be tight or the assembly will shift on turns. I tested the assembly in place with a meter to verify the isolation. You can do the same with a bulb and battery. 

The insulated sleeving needs to cover the soldered joint.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, I must be missing something with the last two posts, i.e. "Clovis says I don't know how to solder?? Then T-man's post after that.

What did I miss here? I am presuming that Clovis hasn't actually dissassembled his 681, into separate parts, and that everything is hooked up, minus the body. Is this correct?

T-man: Are you describing how to re-assemble the collector assembly, and how to alleviate short circuits, with insulating at different points?

For Clovis:
Let's go back to the "COLLECTOR TERMINAL" which makes the connection from the bottom collector/roller assembly up into the innards of the frame. It has to have insulating sleeving on it, the whole length, until you get to the very top, which is where wires are soldered. This should have 3 wires soldered to it. #1 to E-unit, #2 to smoke unit, #3 to lamp socket. This connection give you the power to the lamp, the smoke unit, and powers up the E unit.

As far as soldering, it isn't real hard, and what I recommend is that you obtain a pencil style soldering iron, NOT A SOLDERING GUN, WITH A TRIGGER!!!, of at least 25 watts to 40 watts, which is good enough for working with wiring trains. You will also need what is called 60/40 rosen core solder, which I purchased at Radio Shack on a small spool. Then, if you have never soldered at all before, you will have to practice on wire scraps, to get the feel for it. Take two pieces of wire, skin the insulation off, and then twist the two wires together. Now you want to solder it, to keep it from coming apart. Plug the "IRON" in, and let it get hot. Once its hot, touch the point of the iron with the solder, to see if it melts. If so, touch the iron to the two wires, and hold it there, to let the wires heat up, to accept the solder. Now touch the solder, close to the iron, but on the wire, and wait until you see it start to melt, and absorb into the wires. If it does, take the iron off, and let it cool, until the hot solder sets.

I am not trying to make you feel dumb, if you have never soldered before, you need to learn. Most of us, that have been with you along this trek, are getting anxious to see you get this 681 running. If you have questions, or feel you have a dumb question, don't let it deter you. We are here to assist and guide you through the process. Everyone has a different level of knowledge, and I am still learning new things, just from reading various posts, on this forum, and 2 others.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Teledoc,

I cannot thank you enough. I wish this forum had a "Like" button. It would be even better to have a "Love" button. If I had more time, I'd find one of those pictures of a B-17 Flying Fortress dropping a payload of those 'thumbs up' logos, and post it after each of your posts.

I still don't have the 681 disassemble into each part. The motor is still in the frame, even though I replaced a brush. I pulled the motor, but left the wires intact and attached. The e-unit is still mounted to the chassis, and the smoke unit is still attached too.

My biggest obstacle, aside from not being knowledgeable about repair, is time.

Please don't give up on me. I am working a billion hours a week, at least it seems. I certainly don't want to undo anything on any project that I can't re-do easily, so I left the wires attached.

I need to learn to solder. I have relied on my father all of my life to solder for me. It is high time that I learn. He is a master repairman, but this 681 has him stumped too. Neither of us have fixed a bent axle, and the short has us both stumped. (He is just as busy with time too.)

I am *very appreciative* of your help, Teledoc. I really am. I am so very thankful for the help...I just gotta find the time to stumble through it...and I can be a slow learner too, LOL. 

At the same time, I have troubleshot quite a few Lionel engines and accessories, and fixed some stuff too. I am simply stumped on this one, as I am with most electrical issues on trains, real cars....  

By the way, my 681 is missing the lamp too.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Also...I don't have a dedicated shop area. The kitchen table often becomes my postwar
work place, and since this is where we eat our meals, and the place that the little one likes to toss her book bag after school each day, I tend to reassemble all the parts back into the engine when I wrap up for the day.

Right now would be a great time to work on that 681. The wife and daughter are in bed. The house is quiet. It is also 11:30 here, and I am tired. I really try to avoid tearing into things when I am tired. Parts tend to get lost, or reassembled incorrectly.

Lost parts = frustration, LOL. 

Again, thank you for your help!!!!


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

clovis said:


> Also...I don't have a dedicated shop area. The kitchen table often becomes my postwar
> work place, and since this is where we eat our meals, and the place that the little one likes to toss her book bag after school each day, I tend to reassemble all the parts back into the engine when I wrap up for the day.
> 
> Right now would be a great time to work on that 681. The wife and daughter are in bed. The house is quiet. It is also 11:30 here, and I am tired. I really try to avoid tearing into things when I am tired. Parts tend to get lost, or reassembled incorrectly.
> ...


One thing you really need is a type of tray, muffin tins work great, to hold parts covered with clingwrap (Saranwrap) when storing. If you can't do trays, use sandwich baggies ziploc is about the best. Take pictures, lots of them to use as both reference and to upload here so we can see what you're talking about. Often we can see something you may miss, sometimes one sees something another missed, so it really helps. Our goal is to help you spend time and learn how to do things. Each time gets a bit easier, so never give up.

Carl


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Clovis & Kwikster--Ok, we have one working stiff, one semi-retired, and retired (me). Kwikster is right about keeping things together, ziploc baggies, muffin tins, tupperware, whatever is available. Keep the parts together, use masking tape to label wires, take pictures of your progress, or just the whole thing, and then step by step progress, of dis-assembly, and then reverse of assembly. Like we have both said, we are here to help you along the way.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Have a quick question as I will not be around this afternoon. The problem with the drive wheel, you say it wobbles. Can you tell if it is loose. Measure inside the flange on drivers, and they should be 1 1/8" flange to flange. If one set is off of that measurement, it may only need to be pressed back on.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

The drive wheel on one side does wobble. It feels loose. I think that the axle is bent too.

I am just out of time, and exhausted when I do get some time. 

I wish that I could devote all of my time to this engine...I'd have it running in no time.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Clovis, If you are monitoring this post, check your messages, as I sent a private message to you.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I want to suggest something about the wheels, and don't know what state the frame is in. Are the side rods still connected to both sides of the frame, and which set of wheels has the wobble, front drivers or rear drivers. If the side rods are still connected, take them off, so that you can check the suspected bad axle, or loose wheel independently from the rest. Take a ruler and measure the flanged drivers from inside of flange to inside of flange and it should measure 1 1/8". Look closely at the bad set, at the axle as you rotate it, and how the flange measurement stays at 1 1/8". Also look at the center of the wheel, where axle comes through, and see if it looks straight, as it should be flush with the outside of the wheel. 

Let's try and work on one problem at a time, and hopefully get the frame problem fixed.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Yes, the side rods are connected on both sides. 

The wobbling wheel is on the rear of the engine, on the left side, assuming the back of the cab is resting against your chest, and the cow catcher is pointed away from you, as if the train were on the track going away from you.

My dad thinks that the wheel just maybe loose.

I think that the axle is bent.

FWIW, I think the engine was dropped really stinking hard, and it landed on the pick up assembly and the right rear wheel.

I did tell you that the one of the springs on the roller pick up assembly has snapped, didn't I? When on the test track, I've made sure that the flopping pick up was down in the proper position, touching the track, as it would in normal operation.

Could my short be there?


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I'll try to get the side rods pulled.

Thank you again!!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

You could have a short from the bad spring, but let's concentrate on one problem at a time. Let's establish what the problem is with the rear wheel. It is easier to check, with the side rods off, and you can examine just that axle/wheel combo. If it appears to just be loose, and you have access to a bench vise, you could try to press it back to the right spacing of 1 1/8". Just get the rods off, and rotate JUST THAT AXLE, watching how the wheel tracks, plus check the side to side play across the frame. If it seems to bind, with rotating the wheel, then there is a good chance that you are right about the axle being bent. Lets play with just that problem.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I have MY original 2020 frame from my childhood set, that I am working on trying to restore. I have to find someone who has a wheel press, to put a complete set of wheels on my frame, to put mine back together. I presently have two 2020's, one 671, one 681, and a 736 which all use the same motors, with the brush plate being the only differences.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I just removed the side rods.

The drive wheel almost fell off in my hands.

The axle isn't quite centered, but nonetheless, I believe that it is *bent*. If you spin the other wheel, while watching the axle, it appears to be bent.

What a bummer...

A new axle is $5. Next train show is sometime in late January.

There is part of me that wants to try to straighten the bent axle, while still in the chassis, by striking it with a hammer.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, if you have the wheel off and can examine the exposed axle shaft, turn the wheel on the opposite side, and then take a real close look at that end that the wheel came off. See if looks like it is tracking straight, or if it looks like it has a wobble to it. I would say that if it looks like it has a wobble to it, the axle is most likely bent. That presents a different problem to deal with, which is pulling wheels, and then pressing them back on.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Another thought that just came to mind regarding the wheel sets is QUARTERING. Do you know about "QUARTERING". If you don't know, a quick explanation is take a look at the wheels on the right side of the loco with cowcatcher facing away from you. Put the screw hole from the side rod at 12 o'clock, and keep it there. Look at the left side and the screw hole for the side rod should face at 9 o'clock. That is what quartering is, that the left side rod will be 90 degrees ahead of the right side. IT IS ULTRA IMPORTANT THAT THE WHEELS ARE QUARTERED CORRECTLY.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

The axle is wobbling when spun. 

I've spent the past 10 minutes looking and studying the engine. I walked back to the computer to ask about quartering.

I am perplexed about quartering. 

Some have explained it as "you have to have all of the side rod holes lined up so that the side rods can be attached."

Since the front three wheels are NOT geared to the rear drive wheels...I think that they are wrong.

DUMB QUESTION ALERT (Some viewers may want to use discretion):

Why does it matter on the 681 if the wheels are quartered, other than for appearance? The front three wheels are free, and not geared. 

What am I missing here?????


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If the wheels are not QUARTERED correctly, the wheel assembly as a total (all 8 wheels) will bind up, and will not turn correctly. On Steam engines, one side set of wheels has to be 1/4 turn from the opposite side. The 6-8-6 turbines have the left side wheels 1/4 or 90 degrees facing forward, if the right side is at the top of the rotation, without it that way, the linkage will lock up. To visualize it, the wheel is a "clockface" with top at 12 o'clock, linkage hole to rear is 3 o'clock, at the bottom is 6 o'clock, and forward is 9 o'clock, which are 4 quarters of a circle. Quartering only applies to Steam locos, which have drive linkage, and one side set of linkage will be 1/4 turn or 90 degrees apart from the opposite side. The S2's have the left side as lead quartering, where most others will have right side lead.

To test it, just put side rods back on, without the screws, just hold them there with your hands. Line up the right side at 12 o'clock, and then look at the left side, and it will be at 9 o'clock.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Do you understand about QUARTERING now, with the explanation.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I just sent you a Private message.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Haven't seen any responses in the last few days, so am wondering if you are still working on the 681, or trying to decide what your next steps will be. Keep us posted. I would hate to see you give up on it.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Well...I'm not sure what to do.

I had the side rods off of the chassis, along with the wheel, and was trying to figure out how exactly I could press a new axle and wheel back on, while properly quartering the wheels. As I mentioned before, I generally work at the kitchen table. The wife decided to make a pretty presentation table for a small gathering, and demanded that the trains be put away in favor of a red and green table cloth. 

I put the engine back together, at least enough so that the parts wouldn't get lost.

I am undecided as what to do with this basket case. 

My worries are that I have to buy an axle, and possibly a wheel too. If the old wheel is wallowed out, it won't grip or seat properly to the new axle. 

I really hate to shelve this junker...I really do. The biggest thing is that you've been unbelievably helpful, and I am deeply appreciative of that. I certainly don't want you to be upset with if I decide to drop this project. You've spent almost as much time on this project as I have.

At the same time, I have to be realistic with the time I have, and the resources I have to work with. I am not poor, but money isn't growing on trees here either. I don't have scads of time to dedicate to this project, even though I wish that I did. If I didn't have a mile deep stack of other projects to work on, I'd also feel differently. 

The next show is in late January, so the project is going to sit until then, at least, unless I am able to find a steal of a deal on a chassis or other junker to use in this project.

I wish that I had more to work with....I wish that the trucks or the boiler front were there. I'd push forward with this project without any reservations.

So, in short, I'm in a holding pattern right now.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I understand the situation; A place to work being the worst. If you could possibly get your Dad to unsolder the connections from the E unit to the motor, so you can at least know for sure if the motor works. All you would need would be a few jumper cords, to make the connections in the photos I sent. Once you know the motor works, the rest of the issues with the actual running can be figured out. What I am understanding, is the collector assembly was taken off, and put back on, and you were still having an issue of the train tripping the breaker, almost instantly. That is another reason I would suggest taking the motor out, and testing the motor all by itself.

The wheel issue can be dealt with later on, especially after the Holidays. The upcoming Train show in late Jan. you could possibly hunt for JUST a used frame. Just put it aside for the time being, get through the holidays, and get your head clear from what you want to do with it.


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