# Guess this set is Rare. Only 12,400 produced in 82.



## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Was in with the bunch of stuff I got. Apparently it's kinda rare. I haven't tested it yet, but when I looked down the smoke tube it looked like it might have had a smoke unit.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Anyone know anything about this trolley? I can't find very much information on it at all online.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

well as far as your rocket train set I have the same one except with a total of four passenger cars and a working smokle unit. It was made by triang and that smoke unit is just amazeing when you use lionel smoke fluid in it. I wouldn't call it to rare. Harder to find nowadays but 12000 for one year is a lot compared to the 1000-2000 engine runs they do today. I see the engine and tender with a car or two go for about 100 on ebay from time to time. I would rather keep that thing and never sell it. As for it running it will be dificult. The motors in them are very very finicky. Mine I have to push down and move forward a little bit to get the motor to kick in. Just depends on the condition and how well you can dismantle and clean the motor. I take it you plan on keeping the rocket then?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> well as far as your rocket train set I have the same one except with a total of four passenger cars and a working smokle unit. It was made by triang and that smoke unit is just amazeing when you use lionel smoke fluid in it. I wouldn't call it to rare. Harder to find nowadays but 12000 for one year is a lot compared to the 1000-2000 engine runs they do today. I see the engine and tender with a car or two go for about 100 on ebay from time to time. I would rather keep that thing and never sell it. As for it running it will be dificult. The motors in them are very very finicky. Mine I have to push down and move forward a little bit to get the motor to kick in. Just depends on the condition and how well you can dismantle and clean the motor. I take it you plan on keeping the rocket then?


Yes, i'm keeping it. You prob. have oil on the brushes in yours, that's why you have to push it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Maybe the trolly was a kit?
O gauge?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

possibly.
The motor is completly open in every sense and is not protected from the drive gears that power it so it could be possible that oil from the drive gear splattered in their. I just know that motor is a real pain to get out to work on.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> possibly.
> The motor is completly open in every sense and is not protected from the drive gears that power it so it could be possible that oil from the drive gear splattered in their. I just know that motor is a real pain to get out to work on.




Well, when you told me yours didn't run well it made me curious how mine ran. So I walked out to the kitchen to a transformer I had plugged into the wall and put the wires on the wheels, nothing... I pulled the screw out of the bottom, the pins out of the smoke stack, pulled the stack off, unscrewed the 2 screws in the wheels for the drive rods, pulled the screw out of the side, "don't think it needed to come out" pulled the cab off, pulled the nut off the bottom for the motor and put power to the motor. the motor ran really strong, I put the motor back in and put power to each side of the frame and the wheels turned. I let it run that way for a bit then put power to each wheel and it's a little rough. I think there is grease and trash built up on the axle keeping it from making a good connection to the frame. Other than that, everything is good. I'm sure If I run it or clean it everything will be ok.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

thats good. I still need to take the motor and brushs,springs completely out of mine and do a thourough cleaning to it all. I had already cleaned the contacts and the wheels. I think it has something to do with the finish on the wheels as after scraping some paint off of the wheels it would run fine after a little push. Of course I got mine at a train show and the previous owner had made some "paint" modifications to it so he may have painted the wheels as well causeing my problem. I am also still working on getting the paint he put on off.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

big ed said:


> Maybe the trolly was a kit?
> O gauge?



No, I don't think so. I think a individual made them in the 70s. You can see them with original boxes that sold on craigslist images. I can't get prices or anymore information than that. I seen a thread that said David king made trollies in the 70s


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> thats good. I still need to take the motor and brushs,springs completely out of mine and do a thourough cleaning to it all. I had already cleaned the contacts and the wheels. I think it has something to do with the finish on the wheels as after scraping some paint off of the wheels it would run fine after a little push. Of course I got mine at a train show and the previous owner had made some "paint" modifications to it so he may have painted the wheels as well causeing my problem. I am also still working on getting the paint he put on off.


Just use a dremel and clean the surface where it picks up, if that's already cleaned, I dunno. I had mine apart and didn't see any contacts that make contact with the frame/wheels?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Well here is mine and its added in paint job...
















I think I will fiddle with mine for a bit tomorrow and see if I can't get it straightened out.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> Well here is mine and its added in paint job...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just be careful and don't force anything. My smoke stack slid rite off when I pulled the body off After the handrail pins were taken out of the lower portion of the stack

btw, I do have a smoke unit. LoL


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

I think yours is also missing the metal weight off the bottom...
If you can see the brass nut for the motor, it's missing.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

nope got mine. thing is starting at about 50 percent power setting on dc.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> nope got mine. thing is starting at about 50 percent power setting on dc.



If you don't mind, snap a picture of the bottom when you get a chance and upload it. I have a weight on the bottom of mine that's not showing in the pictures on the bottom of yours.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

is it a little shiny stainless steel weight?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> is it a little shiny stainless steel weight?


]

No, mines not stainless. Mine Might have the wrong one, i'm not sure though. I'll take a picture of mine later.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Nice pieces guys...but this is the one I want. Made in the early 80s, I've lusted for it ever since...alas, sigh, groan...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY3AU9IQnD4


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> No, I don't think so. I think a individual made them in the 70s. You can see them with original boxes that sold on craigslist images. I can't get prices or anymore information than that. I seen a thread that said David king made trollies in the 70s


Hi Doug, 

Looks like you got some really nice stuff! :thumbsup: The trolley running gear is definitely Japanese. They're big on chain drives. Notice the lack of insulators on the wheels? It appears that it was built to run with an overhead catenary system, and would short out the power on a standard HO layout... so don't try to run it. 

Greg


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They need to demo that on a track.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

choo choo said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Looks like you got some really nice stuff! :thumbsup: The trolley running gear is definitely Japanese. They're big on chain drives. Notice the lack of insulators on the wheels? It appears that it was built to run with an overhead catenary system, and would short out the power on a standard HO layout... so don't try to run it.
> 
> Greg



I've already tested it with power, it's made to run on 3 rail 027 or 0 guage track. the center pickup in the picture on the bottom is the pickup for the center rail. The trolley has a sticker on the bottom marked brooklyn ny.



This took a lot of patience, but I finally got it running. I can't seem to figure out why it won't smoke though. I need someone to take a picture of the smoke unit in theres with the stack off. This may not be made to smoke but it does have a resistor in the smoke stack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLNtUlse7Fo

Fast forward to .49. I took it with my phone and whether my phone is upside down or rite side up it auto flips the photo/video on the phone, apparently it doesn't record this way though.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If there's a resistor in the smoke stack, clearly it's designed to smoke I would think. If it's designed for liquid smoke, it needs fiberglass packing to wick the fluid up to the heater.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If there's a resistor in the smoke stack, clearly it's designed to smoke I would think. If it's designed for liquid smoke, it needs fiberglass packing to wick the fluid up to the heater.



There is some kind of insulator/packing on each side of the wires on the resistor, nothing on the resistor itself though, It gets warm when I put my fingers on it and put power to the chassis, but it gets hot when I put power to each side of the resistor. There is another type of resistor in the chassis, and one side of it goes to the smoke stack. I think if I bypass it, it would work really well. I'm not sure though.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, we'd have to know more about each of these resistors. Are you sure the other one isn't a diode? You might also measure the actual value of each of these components.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, we'd have to know more about each of these resistors. Are you sure the other one isn't a diode? You might also measure the actual value of each of these components.



Resistor in stack, the one on the chassis very well could be a diode. It has a hole all the way through the enter of it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sounds like a regulator or transistor, how about the numbers on the side of it? Pictures would be nice too.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Ehh, I just took it apart again. Here is a picture.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, that's odd! That's a 43 ohm resistor sticking up, not something I'd expect to find in a smoke unit. It would certainly get hot if you put full voltage across it, but it'll burn up right after that.

I take it back, there is no smoke unit, that's not the type of heater that a smoke unit would have. I have no idea what the function of that is, what's the other end connected to?

The other one I can't see the colors on looks like an old-time resistor, that would be from the 30's or 40's from the look of it!


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Not sure why else it would get hot in the smoke stack? LoL


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

The power picks up off the wheel/chassis, goes through the right side of the diode on chassis, comes out the left side, goes into the resistor sticking up comes out of resistor sticking up and goes to the motor. The other side picks up directly from ground.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> I've already tested it with power, it's made to run on 3 rail 027 or 0 guage track. the center pickup in the picture on the bottom is the pickup for the center rail. The trolley has a sticker on the bottom marked brooklyn ny.


Jeez... and here I thought it was HO. 

Greg


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if it has a smoke unit, it looks like someone tried to kludge it after the wirewound resistor failed. I've never seen or heard of trying to use a carbon composite resistor for a smoke unit, it would fail long before it got hot enough to generate smoke!


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Maybe the other guy in this thread will take his smoke stack off and get us a picture to see what it's really supposed to look like.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What's the rest of the smoke unit look like? There would have to be fiberglass packing all around the heater.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

There is nothing else in there.

None of the ho scale units i have worked on had fiberglass, they did have a plastic tube with a very small wire winding around a tube. no fiberglass though.

The tyco chattanoogas are about the same but I think they have a glass bowl.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see how that generates smoke.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I don't see how that generates smoke.


I said plastic tube, i ment metal tube in a plastic tub. If you take a small piece of wire and put a lot of volts through it, it gets hot, sometimes it glows red. Similar to a fuse. Well, this heat heats the oil into smoke. All oil needs to smoke is heat, that's why they have the little candles you put under a glass bowl and light then pour liquid oil into the glass bowl and it smokes/ burns like a incent... This is basically how the ho stuff works, i'm not really sure how the fiberglass stuff works, i've never messed with it.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Here is a picture of a bachmann ho smoke unit

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_68_155&products_id=1706


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

nope that is the smoke unit

Mine ahs it as well as my parts engine. These were made a long time ago so this might have been the predecessor to smoke generators. I know both of mine have it and both smoke fine with fluid. Exactly how they were designed. It takes some time to heat up though. Oh and how did you get your train set to run on the ceiling?  I can't seem to egt mine to do that.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> i'm not really sure how the fiberglass stuff works, i've never messed with it.


Fiberglass is a commonly used material in O scale smoke units. It acts as a wicking that draws the fluid up to the resistor to be heated up.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> Here is a picture of a bachmann ho smoke unit
> 
> http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_68_155&products_id=1706


As I said, you'll notice that smoke unit has a wirewound heating element. Again, I can't imagine you can heat a carbon resistor up sufficiently to generate smoke without burning the resistor up, they don't handle heat like a wound resistor.

Now, if you can show me a picture of any smoke unit with that kind of resistor, I'll eat my words.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> As I said, you'll notice that smoke unit has a wirewound heating element. Again, I can't imagine you can heat a carbon resistor up sufficiently to generate smoke without burning the resistor up, they don't handle heat like a wound resistor.
> 
> Now, if you can show me a picture of any smoke unit with that kind of resistor, I'll eat my words.


prepare to eat your words john because pics are on the way.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see them!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Built exactly the same way as Dougs is so there, it is indeed a smoke unit.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Do you see them now?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nope, I don't see that carbon resistor that we were talking about.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Its in there. Same as the other one I use for parts on the one pictured. You just need to belive. Didn't the Polar Express ever teach you that?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess I can't see how you can generate any decent smoke with a bare 43 ohm resistor across about 12 volts. It would seem the smoke fluid would simply run down below the resistor. What am I missing about these units? Is that wimpy little sleeve on each end of the resistor supposed to be the wick?

Oh, I forgot.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

only 4,000 of these I guess.
I can't find much information on it.
http://www.modeltrains.net.au/hornby/item_details.asp?itemid=1637


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

maybe just from Hornbys line but tens of thousands of those powered commuter cars are around and are pretty cheap to buy.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

I meant from hornby


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Is yours from Hornby?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Yep... According to that site, it was only made in 1968


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

So that one engine you have is from Hornby? It says it on the underside?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> So that one engine you have is from Hornby? It says it on the underside?


I don't understand why you are questioning me. I'm pretty damn sure it is made by hornsby, the numbers match hornsby, the trucks and steps are all one piece, every other one I find the trucks are part of the body...

It says Made in italy or something, I can't remember atm and i'm not digging it out.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

x_doug_x said:


> I don't understand why you are questioning me. I'm pretty damn sure it is made by hornsby, the numbers match hornsby, the trucks and steps are all one piece, every other one I find the trucks are part of the body...
> 
> It says Made in italy or something, I can't remember atm and i'm not digging it out.


Hey Doug, 
You forgot to add a  and a  and maybe a ?........:laugh:


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

The only thing I don't understand is why it doesn't have hornsby couplers.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Made in britain. Budd, And I do see where the couplers could have easily been changed.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

So what was with questioning me twice? Is this a rare piece or something?


Btw, I just compared the chassis with one that was in a hornby box listed as a hornby and it is in fact a hornsby.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I was just making sure because jsut about every company ahs made them. I could not tell from your pic if it was a Hornby. I would imagine it is rare because Hornby has never done a lot of US prototypes as they are OO scale in Britian. I know a lot of people confuse them with different makers then they are and wanted to I guess save you the disapointment of if you have to one day sell it find out it is one of the worthless ones. That or I am jsut bored because of summer.

Sorry if I affended you.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Well, you're not going to save me any dissapointment. It is from hornsby made in 68. I didn't really think it was worth much anyways even though it's from hornsby. I don't know much about them.

I know it's hard for me to find the powered c&o budd from hornsby!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Well I will give it some merit because it is from Hornby and they almost have never made U.S. prototypes and are very hard to find. As for its exact value thats in the air because so many lower grade ones are available that people will easily pay for.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Here is a item number for one for sale on ebay 170259052540

I can't find a 9000 for sale anywhere, this one says 9000 the rest say 9003. 


Here are up close photos of mine taken thismorning. This should clear it all up.

























Looks like a hornby to me.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Now those are clear pictures. Its a little rough but nothing a new painting won't cure. It does not have the nicest details ever put on one but it is a Hornby and it does have a full interior which helps it.

I would say it is anywhere in value from 50-100 dolalrs. It depends what that one sells for, the one from ebay is unpowered and not selling so it is overpriced. Most of it also depends on how well it runs, those open gear systems were generally rougher then a closed system.


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