# Import tariffs potential impact on the hobby



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm not sure if the new administration will eventually put a tariff in place, there is talk of between 20 and 35 percent, but it would have a major impact on our hobby given the fact that most of our products are made overseas.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Like I have said elsewhere....be prepared to pay more....for everything.....hwell:

All these tariffs and import taxes are supposedly meant to punish the other countries, but in the end, the good old tax-payers are the ones that will be paying the bill. A blind man can see that.....


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

I have to agree with you, Hobo, and TJ. Trump is trying to keep his promises.
Hope this isn't getting too political.
Some are good ones.. But this one will hurt us.

The one I think will hurt also is the one with Mexico for the wall.
It will put huge tariffs on goods grown there.
Here in AZ, this state has a larger dependency on Mexican imports than other, farther north states.
So it'll hurt both consumers and manufacturers.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Yes - it will drive up the costs of those products, but maybe it will drive them up to where is makes financial sense to produce those things here in the US rather than import them supporting OUR economy instead of China.

We are our own worst enemy when it comes to wanting jobs here, but wanting the cheapest price for everything.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

sstlaure said:


> We are our own worst enemy when it comes to wanting jobs here, but wanting the cheapest price for everything.


Now there is the crux of the whole issue.....hwell:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't think the 20 to 35% be for all imports. Its for US manufactures that move out of the country to get cheap labor
and avoid our taxes and bring their products back to America. Its a form of punishment. Not all imports.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

We got off the topic of where the train products will be affected.

Yes, they will be affected, and yes, the idea is a good one: persuade the manufacturers to come back to the US.

But I'm wondering if that will happen. There's no way I can see that a model manufacturer can make a model anything here as cheaply as it could be imported for.
And that is aimed right at the main source: Lionel.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

And that is aimed right at the main source: Lionel. 

I don't know when lionel moved manufacture to China. I do know that many are not happy with lionel China quality. I don't know how far back the punishment would go.
It might be from this day forward. If so, very little of our hobby would be affected. If I were a US manufacturer, I would
shelf any idea about moving now. It is to keep jobs here. In the long run our quality would be better.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

See, I don't buy into the whole "make it here at all costs" idea. Why do we want the boring, repetitive, low skill jobs? Let other countries keep those. Let's concentrate on higher skilled, better paying jobs here. Let America be the advanced manufacturing and high tech leader, and let everyone else take the stuff we don't want to.

There IS a path to higher wages and lower prices. It's just politically dynamite, because for that to work, the guy whose job moves to Mexico (for example) has to be retrained and potentially relocated, which is kind of hard on him. But the long term outcome is better.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The president will have to come up with an incentive for US companys to bring manufacturing, and jobs, back to the US. Lower corporate taxes would help.
Wouldn't it be cool if our hobby equipment was made in US. Japan made much nicer trains than China. I remember when many things were made in Japan and we called it Japan junk. Well, we have found out what junk is.

CT Valley
Until we get our education system corrected, we won't have that high skill work force. The low skilled workers need jobs for now. Schools are not doing their job right now.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

mopac said:


> ... Lower corporate taxes would help...
> .


Ever since Reagan the Republicans have pushed for lower corporate taxes because they maintained that corporations don't pay taxes, they just pass their cost on to the consumer. Trump's proposed tariff is in direct contradiction to that policy. You can't have it both ways so which is it?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

And its not just the school system. Its the way the American family views education.
Look at any national spelling bee. Always won by an Asian. They are no smarter. Its 
the Asian view of education. There was a study on IQ of the different races. At 5 years
old, there is no difference of IQ between blacks, whites, Hispanic, Asian. Its what happens after 5 years old. Sorry, not on the topic of our hobby. But it came up.

Gramps, the tariffs are a pure punishment. Not to help the econcomy. When you lower corporate rate, you have to take away many loop holes the corporations get. No they don't pay taxes, so why do they worry about the rate?

I would hope its not a red or blue thing.

I would hope its not a republican or democrat.

John is going to cut us off any minute.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

mopac said:


> I don't think the 20 to 35% be for all imports. Its for US manufactures that move out of the country to get cheap labor and avoid our taxes and bring their products back to America


Which will indeed drive up the price of our trains....




mopac said:


> Its a form of punishment


Yeah, but who gets punished? Us, that's who! We will still want to buy our trains, and the manufacturers ain't gonna eat the cost....


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

mopac said:


> If I were a US manufacturer, I would
> shelf any idea about moving now. It is to keep jobs here. In the long run our quality would be better


Better...do you think so? I'm thinking more expensive! The American worker won't put trains together for $5.00 a day.....and if that's forced on them, the quality will plummet....hwell:


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

mopac said:


> I don't think the 20 to 35% be for all imports. Its for US manufactures that move out of the country to get cheap labor
> and avoid our taxes and bring their products back to America. Its a form of punishment. Not all imports.


There have been few, if any details on how the tariff would work. At one point he proposed a 45% tax on all imports from China.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Old_Hobo said:


> Better...do you think so? I'm thinking more expensive! The American worker won't put trains together for $5.00 a day.....and if that's forced on them, the quality will plummet....hwell:


Correct, jobs went overseas for lower manufacturing costs, not for corporate taxes which the consumer pays for in the long run.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

We are being lied to by manufacturers already about costs and moving to China already.

This is the only thing I am involved in where people just blindly keep paying more and more money for the same thing every time it gets released.

All we here about is labor costs and that's why all the jobs went to China.

Well, if that's the case, that would mean in the last ten years that the labor costs in China are equal to what they were here.

Now, anyone reading this knows that is simply not the case.

Someone is making more than they used to off the current state of affairs.

Grab a 2008-2009 issues of Model Railroader and start doing some price comparisons............................


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

3.8TransAM said:


> All we here about is labor costs and that's why all the jobs went to China.
> 
> Well, if that's the case, that would mean in the last ten years that the labor costs in China are equal to what they were here.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. If China's costs were one-tenth of the USA 10 years ago and labor costs went up the same for both nations, which is debatable, China's costs would still be one-tenth the USA's.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Some of this is corporate greed. If they could build their trains for $10.00 less in
China, screw the American worker, we are moving. I don't know how much they save going to China.But you get the point. We probably don't save what the corporations save.


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

All,

I rather pay higher prices if it stops China from flooding the US market with low quality products. I am sorry but I am getting tired of defective products (which you often hear about here too). Ever think about where are money goes we buy these items? China is one of the most repressive countries in the world. When we allow them to take over a market such as model trains and sell stuff here, we are indirectly supporting that government which has been flexing their muscles more and more like what is going in the China Sea not to mention the weapons they announced they have developed to sink US aircraft carriers). By the way, why not pick up a few Kadee or Accurail freight cars instead of ones made in China?

I am not trying to be political here, I just want to say that our purchases like everything else we do have impacts we may not think about.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

Shouldn't this thread be in "Union Station"?

To political for me, you are bursting my bubble and taking all of the fun away and that's what model trains and this forum are all about, fun.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

You right.

I bought a refridgerator from sears. It lasted 3 years and had to be completely rebuilt.
The repair bill was almost what I paid for it. Repairman said it was made in China. They
all are now. He said they are junk. I bought a fridge from sears almost 40 years ago. Got
rid of it after getting the new one and it was still running as good as it did new. Oh, it was made in the US.

My new fridge was still under warranty. Thank goodness. Bet I won't get almost 40 years out of it.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Well NAJ, it started out being whats going to happen to our train prices.
Read it all.


Its not political, its just about whats going on.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

mopac said:


> Well NAJ, it started out being whats going to happen to our train prices.
> Read it all.
> 
> 
> Its not political, its just about whats going on.


I am well aware of how it started, I did read the whole thing, however it seems the thread took a turn onto a dead end spur.

I come to this forums and others to get away from the real world and that is why I try to avoid "Union Station".

My subscription to this particular thread is ending.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

That depends on what level of detail you want. Accurail is great, but the level of detail is medium....and they still don't make very kind of car (no tank cars, for instance)....so that's not the answer.....


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

mopac said:


> You right.
> 
> I bought a refridgerator from sears. It lasted 3 years and had to be completely rebuilt.
> The repair bill was almost what I paid for it. Repairman said it was made in China. They
> ...


So, if the old one was still running as good as when new, why did you buy a new one......? hwell:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Good question. Blame it on the wife. She wanted a totally new kitchen. New cabinets,
new floor, new counters, and this thing was "copper tone" in color. If you remember that.
It just wouldn't die. She wanted stainless steel, side by side, water and ice on the front,
and built in to the wall. She had terminal cancer and I could not tell her no. She got to
enjoy her new kitchen for 2 years and then she passed. She loved her new kitchen. How
is that for an answer?

And it wasn't from China, It was Mexico. I got confused. Almost all fridge are made in Mexico now.
And it wasn't workmanship that failed, it was the cheap design from Kenmore. I take that back,
it was workmanship. It had a leak at a weld. And that let moisture in the system, Freon out,
and caused restrictions in the system. To make sure they got the restrictions, they replaced the
compressor, the dryer, the condenser, the tubing. the whole system. I think they could have given me
a new fridge for less than repairs cost.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Between the additional price I would pay to buy American, about 15%, and the efficiency it can gain from automation and good labor relations and location (a right to work state?), I'm sure Lionel can survive with manufacturing in the US. I've recently looked at the costs and such of manufacturing in the US and President Trump doesn't have too far to push manufacturers with those incentives of his, to get them to competitively come back to the US - at least those of them who are creative and willing to innovate. The rest -- well, that's commercial Darwinism at work. 

Maybe Lionel will be the Dodo bird of the model train world, or maybe they will thrive. 

Either way I am confident I will be buying model trains from someone.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Lee, when did lionel start production in China?
Did the price drop when they went to China? (I am sure their labor cost dropped)
Has the quality dropped?


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## mjrfd99 (Jan 5, 2016)

I"ll pay more for USA products. I do whenever possible. NO PROBLEM. 
http://time.com/107922/china-pet-food-contamination-recall-video/
So those that let this happen-CEO's and politicians- should be fed the china poison.
READ the label and please DO NOT buy this china crap:
https://advancedmediterranean.com/2...ina-is-tainted-with-antibiotics-and-bacteria/


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

mopac said:


> I don't think the 20 to 35% be for all imports. Its for US manufactures that move out of the country to get cheap labor
> and avoid our taxes and bring their products back to America. Its a form of punishment. Not all imports.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Lionel move their production overseas.

This is a stretch but I wonder if it would apply to guitar manufacturers like CF Martin who moved their string manufacturing to Mexico and Fender and Guild who moved some of their guitar manufacturing to China.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

RonthePirate said:


> We got off the topic of where the train products will be affected.
> 
> Yes, they will be affected, and yes, the idea is a good one: persuade the manufacturers to come back to the US.
> 
> ...


Maybe that's why Weaver went out of business. If they were profitable manufacturing in the US they would have been able to sell the business as a whole instead of liquidated it.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Good point......if, in fact, that was the reason they went out of business......we'll never really know.....


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Old_Hobo said:


> Good point......if, in fact, that was the reason they went out of business......we'll never really know.....


I think the Owner of Weaver wanted to retire. It was my understanding that he tried to sell the business but apparently did not have any interested parties. The employees could have formed an ESOP put together a pro forma and gone to a bank to finance the business.

None of that ever happened and Weaver sold off the paint business and all or most of the tooling. BTW: I don't think their engines were build here just the rolling tick.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> Good point......if, in fact, that was the reason they went out of business......we'll never really know.....


Weaver went out of business because I didn't buy from them - as well of tens of thousands of model railroaders like me. The reason have nothing to do with China or their prices. Basically, except for once in ten years, theynever gave me a reason to buy from them. They made good stuff, just like good stuff from others. I view their failure as due to a lack of imagination and willingness to take risks and innovate. 

On the other hand, I doubt we would have Menards now if if were not for Chinese manufacturers.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

CTValleyRR said:


> See, I don't buy into the whole "make it here at all costs" idea. Why do we want the boring, repetitive, low skill jobs? Let other countries keep those. Let's concentrate on higher skilled, better paying jobs here. Let America be the advanced manufacturing and high tech leader, and let everyone else take the stuff we don't want to.
> 
> There IS a path to higher wages and lower prices. It's just politically dynamite, because for that to work, the guy whose job moves to Mexico (for example) has to be retrained and potentially relocated, which is kind of hard on him. But the long term outcome is better.


Because CT - we literally have MILLIONS of low skill workers in this country that will NEVER learn a high skill occupation (nevermind work to have a "career" vs a "job". Not everyone is made out to become an Engineer or doctor.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

3.8TransAM said:


> We are being lied to by manufacturers already about costs and moving to China already.
> 
> This is the only thing I am involved in where people just blindly keep paying more and more money for the same thing every time it gets released.
> 
> ...


According to this - Minimum wage in china is 690 CNY/month, 1 CNY=$0.15 usd.....so minimum wage is $103.50 USD PER MONTH.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/labour-costs

Plastics, copper, steel, etc. are all global commodities and are traded globally at basically even pricing regardless of the country. Labor, Benefits and transportation and import tariffs are the only variables left when comparing one country cost to manufacture vs another.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

sstlaure said:


> Because CT - we literally have MILLIONS of low skill workers in this country that will NEVER learn a high skill occupation (nevermind work to have a "career" vs a "job". Not everyone is made out to become an Engineer or doctor.


Not saying that they do. But if you're the drill press operator, why not move up to being a CNC machine operator? No matter where some jobs move, there will always be jobs requiring varying degrees of skill in the economy. The point is that we shouldn't fight to keep jobs here just to keep jobs here. By fighting to keep jobs just to keep jobs, you suboptimize the economy. 

Walmart will always have greeters, stores will always have cashiers, Wendy's needs someone to flip the burgers. A guy without a high school diploma may never become an engineer, but maybe he can pull himself up to be a machine tool operator or lab tech instead of a janitor.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Well, here is what Jason Shron, owner of Rapido trains, has to say about this topic, from Rapido's latest newsletter:



> The Hobby and International Trade
> 
> For the student of international relations, the last few months have certainly been interesting. I'm sure the academics will be able to devote entire textbooks to the political upheaval that took place around the world in 2016. But for a business owner, it's been a bit terrifying.
> 
> ...


We should probably pay attention to those words.....


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

Wow, let me see if I understand this, the workers only make pennies for building the models (ever here of Sweat Shop?). Yet fast food workers here want $15 per hour. Sorry but I rather reduce the number of purchases knowing that whoever made it got fair wages. I wonder how Kadee manages to make highly detailed freight cars at reasonable prices while still paying a living wage...


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Depends on what defines "reasonable prices", as far as the Kadee comment goes....up here in Canada, Kadee cars are just as expensive as the high end cars coming out of China (Tangeant, Exactrail, etc). And to me, Kadee cars are way more fragile than the other high end cars, so I own very few (3 actually), and those I bought used, because new prices are prohibitive....

And again, if you want a diverse model railroad, you can't just buy from one company....because one company does not make every piece of equipment that you will need/want to meet your goals.....


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

PhillipL said:


> Wow, let me see if I understand this, the workers only make pennies for building the models (ever here of Sweat Shop?)


So, do you know where your Nikes and a lot of your clothes are made as well? Yep, sweat shops.....doesn't just apply to model trains....

And why is most stuff made abroad? You guessed it....maximum profits for the companies that call themselves American....yep, the same CEO's that have friends in (very) high places are the same people that have shipped the manufacturing off the continent, all for maximum profits.....

Something smells big time, and it's not the kitchen garbage....


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Old_Hobo said:


> So, do you know where your Nikes and a lot of your clothes are made as well? Yep, sweat shops.....doesn't just apply to model trains....
> 
> And why is most stuff made abroad? You guessed it....maximum profits for the companies that call themselves American....yep, the same CEO's that have friends in (very) high places are the same people that have shipped the manufacturing off the continent, all for maximum profits.....
> 
> Something smells big time, and it's not the kitchen garbage....


You do know that the average profit margin for a typical business is around 6%, right?

While it is true it is profits that drives them there, I hardly believe that any train company is making massive profits, but in reality a more typical 6% margin on their investment which I think any company should be able to get.

The driver is what people are willing to pay for the product vs what is costs to produce that product.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I didn't say they are making massive profits; I said maximum....big difference.....but then, does your reasoning mean that if the train pieces are produced in the USA (which would cost more to make apparently), there would be zero profit margin, unless the product price is jacked up?

Nobody seems to want to pay more for their trains, so what will that do to the hobby........maybe Jason Shron is right......


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Yeah, sure, we'll pay our workers $15.00 an hour to flip burgers and make trains at the same time.
That's called multitasking.
And of course you know what would happen.......we'd be eating plastic and coupling up Hamburgler.

All kidding aside, that $15.00 an hour is ridiculous! "A living wage". 
For who?? Certainly not the small business owner that will go broke trying to pay his people that wage, PLUS pay their taxes, PLUS pay their Obama(don't)care insurance, PLUS any overtime they may accrue, PLUS any other sweetners the feds can throw on us to hurt us even more.
I like our president, but I sure don't like the problems the past "leaders" have left us.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Towards the end of the campaign I found out how the $15.00 an hour was to be handled.
With Bernie or Hillary, This would not be passed on to the business owner. It would have been another govt. handout. Settled up with the employee at tax time. With tax incentives. Not the business owner. This is one reason Bernie or Hillary needed to raise taxes. Tax payers would get the bill.


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## 1905dave (Sep 18, 2016)

A lot of it boils down to what you think the constraint is. Is it supply (we don't have enough stuff so we need to make more) or is it demand (we aren't buying enough stuff)?
I find it hard to believe we are in short supply of stuff in the US. That leads me to believe that the current problem is demand. One way (but not the only way) to increase demand is to give the people who buy the most stuff more money to buy more stuff. If you give somebody $15 an hour they are going to save a bit of it, but mostly they will spend it almost immediately. If you give a company a $15 million tax break they may spend some of it but most of it will end up going to the owners and share holders. It will get to some consumers (not the same consumers as the $15 will) and not as fast. If you want a high "velocity" to the money, give it to the lowest level.

In 37 years working on a railroad, I never saw a single instance that we added a second main track or hired a single crew member because we got a tax break. It was all driven by demand, car loadings.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Old_Hobo said:


> I didn't say they are making massive profits; I said maximum....big difference.....but then, does your reasoning mean that if the train pieces are produced in the USA (which would cost more to make apparently), there would be zero profit margin, unless the product price is jacked up?
> 
> Nobody seems to want to pay more for their trains, so what will that do to the hobby........maybe Jason Shron is right......


No - the price would go up. Companies must make profit to remain in business. If they don't, then as soon as the economy takes a downturn - they're gone, then where would we be?

I'm just not of the "evil greedy business" mindset. That being said - companies make decisions based upon the overall impact to their financial performance (as they are beholden to their shareholders) - If making a product in the US means it is unprofitable, then it shouldn't be made there, however, if tariffs are enacted that make overseas manufacturing costs on par with local, then certainly it makes more business sense to make those items here.

Many countries around the world enact protectionist measures to protect their manufacturing base. 

There is a tactical aspect to this as well for us - Remember - it was MANUFACTURING that won WWII. Our enemies had better weapons, but we simply out-produced them 10:1. Just about every company that could make something for the war was converted over and became the great War Machine.

I personally don't like how developed China's Mfg has become - I don't trust them. (The govt)


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

1905dave said:


> A lot of it boils down to what you think the constraint is. Is it supply (we don't have enough stuff so we need to make more) or is it demand (we aren't buying enough stuff)?
> I find it hard to believe we are in short supply of stuff in the US. That leads me to believe that the current problem is demand. One way (but not the only way) to increase demand is to give the people who buy the most stuff more money to buy more stuff. If you give somebody $15 an hour they are going to save a bit of it, but mostly they will spend it almost immediately. If you give a company a $15 million tax break they may spend some of it but most of it will end up going to the owners and share holders. It will get to some consumers (not the same consumers as the $15 will) and not as fast. If you want a high "velocity" to the money, give it to the lowest level.
> 
> In 37 years working on a railroad, I never saw a single instance that we added a second main track or hired a single crew member because we got a tax break. It was all driven by demand, car loadings.


But if you give burger flippers, etc. $15/hr minimum that drives the cost of everything up so your money isn't as valuable. 

Typical workyear is 2080 hrs - so $15/hr is ~$31,200/year

The driver is a statement you see on this site ALL the time "Where can I get X at the best price?"

We definitely don't have a supply problem - low cost countries from around the planet can ship us their stuff with basically no restrictions/limits (see trade deficit) 

People in other countries take pride in their manufacturing sectors - Japan, Germany, etc. Here is seems most people just sneer and look down their noses at manufacturing jobs - which is pathetic IMO.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

People in other countries take pride in their manufacturing sectors - Japan, Germany, etc. Here is seems most people just sneer and look down their noses at manufacturing jobs - which is pathetic IMO. 

I couldn't agree more with this statement. Wasn't always that way. Manufacturing jobs
or flippin burgers is harder than most believe. Many people wouldn't last one day in those jobs. I have a brother-inlaw that thought it was terrible what I made at an auto plant.
He had a least one degree or more in economics, and thought that entitled him to make a lot more than me. He had no clue about money. He had a company but no clue how to run a good business. I have out earned him every year for 40 years and I only have some college.
He would not have lasted one hour in an auto plant. Maybe its the liberal part of me, but 
I believe if you work 40 hrs a week you deserve to make a living wage. Building cars, building trains, flipping burgers, what ever. I would hate to support a family of 4 on 31,200 a year, make a car payment, a house payment. Last I heard poverty line was $25,000. If I made less than 31,200 I would
be on welfare and food stamps and not work at all. I have no idea on how to fix this problem though. I have many years I earned over $100,000 without a real degree. Not bad. I work hard no matter what job I had. But not everybody had the skills I have, or the
luck of life.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

There was an article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper about the vo-tech program at a local high school. Among other skills taught the have a training class in welding. The teacher said all 24 of last years graduates were fully employed starting at $18 and after some experience earning $36 per hour.

One of the employers said he had two welders who earned $100,000 a year.

A recruiting firm featured in the article said they currently have 40 job requests for 200-300 open positions. Many of the openings go unfilled due to a lack of experienced candidates.

So, with the proper skills you can make a living wage.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Where would this country be without burger flippers? Many people would starve. Just kidding. All jobs are important or they would not exist. They all must be filled.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

TJSmith said:


> There was an article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper about the vo-tech program at a local high school. Among other skills taught the have a training class in welding. The teacher said all 24 of last years graduates were fully employed starting at $18 and after some experience earning $36 per hour.
> 
> One of the employers said he had two welders who earned $100,000 a year.
> 
> ...


Wait! You mean I shouldn't go into 100k worth of debt for a liberal arts degree??????????????????????

I'm never amazed at how stupid people are today. Plenty of jobs and things to do if you actually educate yourself about them beforehand.

I just worked my first year in a refinery. I am educated with a college degree and a lot of other education. I get dirty, but also got 6 figures out of it.


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## slammin (Mar 25, 2016)

My background is tool & die. I served my apprenticeship in the late 60s and early 70s. Prior to moving to western Colorado I was GM at the largest gage shop in Ohio, so I know the manufacturing business. I don't care who sits at the desk on PA Avenue, most of those jobs aren't coming back. Technology has reduced the number of skilled (high paying) jobs by 70%. Import duties and tariffs won't create more jobs, they will just make it harder for those of us that are still working to buy the things we need.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Automation will kill more jobs than any other factor, that's what they should be worried about....at least the wall will employ a few people, until it's done, and then......?


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