# can't identify part?



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

Good morning, My name is Robert and am a newbe to the forum. I have been using the forum for a short time and find it very useful and appreciate everyone's input and knowledge. I have had HO trains all my life but this is my first experience with O gauge. My dad recently retired and gave away (yes...gave away) all of his HO and O gauge trains. He gave me a few pieces of his O gauge and I plan on putting up a small layout (4'x10' or so) for him to work on when he visits since I know how much he enjoys it. In the meantime I have aquired a few Lionel pieces that I would like to get running, my last project was re-building a 259E loco and freight car set as a present for my dad in 2010. My present project is a 1700E jr streamliner and 4 car set that was in pretty bad shape when I received it. I completly stripped the paint off of each car and removed all the rust although the chrome roofs still have some pitting. I then primed and repainted the frames and trucks and wheels. Now comes the fun part.....the motor! 

Here is where my question comes in, upon removal of the engine the original wires were either missing or dried out so bad they crumbled in my hands. There was one wire (picture attached) the was connected to each brush holder but it too, fell apart as soon as I took the picture and tried to remove it. I'm not sure what this wire is for or if I will need it. I do know one of the brush holders is grounded from the frame(only when the brush is removed) and the field wiring is not grounded. I have tried to run the motor w/o the e-unit connected using leads from my transformer but the brush holder and armature get very hot.

Does anyone know if I need the wire that is in the attached picture? If so what is it so that I may be able to find a replacement?

thanks in advance for all your help!!!!


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you check under the sleeving you may find a capacitor. Not standard equipment, not needed, but it helps the motor. The bottom brush id grounded so the power will come through the center rail tt the coil amnd from the coil to the top brush. That is how it connects up.
With the reverse unit it may be a little tricky, The coil field is reversed by the drum. The other leads are, the center rail, ground through the brushes, and the light connected up to the center rail lead.

You have a good resume, when you get around to it, show us your accomplishments.

This picture may help.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Robert,

Here's a wiring diagram I created for one of my 1681E's with a Lionel Jr motor. I believe the setup here is similar to your 1700E ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=41374&highlight=1681+wiring+diagram#post41374

Regards,

TJ


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

Thank you for the pictures and input, I will use both when I re-wire the motor back up. The "capacitor" looks to of have been a solid piece of lead with a wire at each end. I wasn't sure if this had anything to do with the grounding or if it would help keep the motor cooler ( I plan on running the set so I don't want to overheat or burn the armature up)?

I have also attached a few pics of 2 engines I picked up and customized for my 2 oldest kids. These were my first O gauge purchases (cheap ones) and modified them just a bit for the kids to run.

I will take a few pictures of the 1700E set and post later,

Thanks again for all the advice!!!!!!


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Robert,

Sorry for my brief reply above. Busy during the day, but a bit more time now.

I've never seen a loco with a Lionel Jr style motor with a capacitor and or a lead "heat sink". That's a new one on me. T-Man or Gunrunnerjohn might be able to add more insight here. I've rebuilit several locos/motors with this general motor style, and the wiring is simply per the diagram in my email link above. If you go to that link and scroll around in that thread, you'll find photos of a Lionel Jr motor with e-unit, wiring runs, etc. (The link from T-Man in his post was for another one of my motors, but one with a manual reverse switch, rather than an e-unit.)

I'd love for you to post some pics of the 1700E motor (without the loco shell) from a few different angles ... top, each side, bottom. And perhaps a photo that shows how the motor mounts into the loco shell. Please ... !!!

Your 1700 shell looks FABULOUS!

And the pink stuff looks ... well ... pink! 

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Capacitors and heasinks sound like DC operation to me, not an A/C motor.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Ditto on TJ's request on the 1700, but also show the passenger cars too please. 
Does not matter what state they are in. Before and after pictures are better anyway.

The 1700 looks nice.:thumbsup: I like.
Is that the front in the picture?

The pink one needs some Barbie stickers on it.:thumbsup:
We just talked about that the other day.

You think you will ever paint one Alien green?:thumbsup:
One of these days I will.

The 1062 looks great too, what tender is attached to it?

By the way welcome to the site.


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks for the input everyone, I printed the wiring diagram and will use this when I put the motor back together!

Attached are a few pics of the 1700E set repainted and a of the motor(w/o e-unit). 

The motor frame was "blued" when received, I thought I read somewhere that said no prewar motor frames were done this way but it was. Also I have not found another 5 unit set anywhere on the internet, I believe it was only sold as a 3 or 4 unit set. I guess it is possible the original owner purchased a single car as an add-on?

Big Ed, no barbie stickers on the pink train.....I would have liked to have purchased my daughter a PW Lionel "girls set".........but......the dc switcher was in my budget! 
No plans for any alien green trains but the wife does like "glow in the dark" stuff so maybe......hhhmmmmmm, now you have me thinking........
The 1062 I believe has a 1062T tender slope back, no markings on it.

TJCruiser, hope the motor pics come out ok for you to see, let me know if you want to see another shot.
I starting to wonder if Gunrunnerjohn is correct, maybe previous owner had a DC only set-up and ran this 1700E that way, which might explain the capacitor.

Sorry for not getting back to you all sooner, internet was poor yesterday and I can only "play"(as the wife calls it when I think or talk about trains) during normal business hours.....so bear with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Robert,

Thanks for the pics. It looks to me like your Lionel Jr motor was fully taken apart at some point, with the three rivetted cross-rods that hold the left/right sideplates together having been drilled out. Then, someone re-blued the inside/outside of the motor sideplates, and remounted them together with screws tapped into dowels in way of where the original rivetted cross-rods used to be. Or maybe they tapped the screws into the now-hollow (becuase of the drilling) original cross-rods?

I've gun-blued several motors ... works well. I'd suspect (?) that Lionel did use a similar process.

The rest of the 1700 looks beautiful ... nice work on the restoration.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

TJ, the 3/4" threaded spacers and screws were from me, I drilled out the original pins because I had to repair the pick-up shoe plate (the pick-up shoes did not have any tension and I had to straighten and re-bend the tension plate) and did not want to damage it trying to remove it from the motor. My plan is to further recess the holes so the screws are more flush with the motor side plate but am just waiting to get it wired and running before I do the finishing touches. I also removed the "gun-blued" from the outside motor plates. Once everything is fitted I was going to use some lock-tite on the screw threads to lock them into place so they don't vibrate out later on down the line.

Thanks for the :thumbsup: on the resto, much appreciated. I have read and viewed some of your resto work also......impressive to say the least!

As much as I like modern O gauge trains (2007 UP Lionmaster SD90 being the newest), there's nothing compared to bringing life back into a 70+ year old "toy" train that was once headed for a dreadful end.


Regards,


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I agree, the pickup shoe plate is about impossible to remove without damage. You solution is interesting. I hope it works for you. Setting the plate back can be difficult. TJ may have done that a few more times than myself. It is a challenge.


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

TJ, I forgot to mention, one of the pics I posted today is of the "swivel ball" that is on top of the motor. This ball goes into the top bracket inside the engine frame (picture also attached) and a screw goes in from the top of the engine (between the exhaust stacks) to keep the ball from sliding back out during use. That is the only attachment from motor to engine frame...pretty neat!


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Was Orange the original color? oop

It is red. It's a type twp from 1936 -37. They came with one or two 1701 coaches and the 1702 observation car. A nice set, really nice!


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

T-Man, I was able to put the side plates, swivel ball and pick-up bracket on w/o any trouble, everything lined up easy....considering!

The original color was red (Lionel color 517 red I believe) which is why I kept it that color. The red is not an exact match but close. Most of the engine and cars were rust when I brought them, I could see the red color on the inside of the frames after I took the chrome tops off the cars. Not a total basket case but enough for me to warrant a re-paint.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The red and aluminum are great colors. Be sure to tale plenty of befores on your next prioject.


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

T-Man, next time (and there will be) I will take before shots, I didn't know I would be posting pics of it on the internet for other people to look/learn.


I have a 243, 6110 and 2034 in the mail heading my way (from ebay), but I don't have plans to modify these (famous last words).


----------



## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

67-SCOUT said:


> Thank you for the pictures and input, I will use both when I re-wire the motor back up. The "capacitor" looks to of have been a solid piece of lead with a wire at each end. I wasn't sure if this had anything to do with the grounding or if it would help keep the motor cooler ( I plan on running the set so I don't want to overheat or burn the armature up)?
> 
> I have also attached a few pics of 2 engines I picked up and customized for my 2 oldest kids. These were my first O gauge purchases (cheap ones) and modified them just a bit for the kids to run.
> 
> ...


Howdy new member.

I have the same Loco as Alyssa. I bought mine because it was a B&O. It is so light, it came off my 1122 switches whenever it went across them.

I addes some pinewood derby car weights. They fit well between the body and the frame. A little hot melt glue, and it now runs around a figure "8" with 4 1122 switches without fail.

Good luck


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

I don't run "Alyssa's" switcher too much, my temporary layout is at my work and she keeps her train on her shelf for now but the "adding weights" idea is a good one. I have read that some prewar Jr engines had weight added to them too (including the 1700E in this post) but mine did not have the weight, I guess the kid who owned the set back in 1936 used it for something else.......

Thanks for the tip and newbe welcome!!!


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Beeee-u-tifull job, well done.:thumbsup:
And you saved a piece of history in the process.

The Tin Man (TJ) now has some competition.

Thanks for posting.

only kidding TJ you will always be the original Tin Man.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

67-SCOUT said:


> TJ, the 3/4" threaded spacers and screws were from me, I drilled out the original pins because I had to repair the pick-up shoe plate (the pick-up shoes did not have any tension and I had to straighten and re-bend the tension plate) and did not want to damage it trying to remove it from the motor. My plan is to further recess the holes so the screws are more flush with the motor side plate but am just waiting to get it wired and running before I do the finishing touches. I also removed the "gun-blued" from the outside motor plates. Once everything is fitted I was going to use some lock-tite on the screw threads to lock them into place so they don't vibrate out later on down the line.


The fiber pickup plate can be removed without any modification / damage to the motor. It takes a bit of effort, but it is possible ... I've done it on several motors with success across the board. My description of the process here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=40756

That said, it also is possible to tighten the "spring" of the pickup plate flexy clips without removing the whole plate. My trick here is to:

a. remove the shoes.
b. unscrew and slide the e-unit out of the way.
c. insert the "L" end of a small allen wrench underneath the spring clip, beyond the point where it has a square hole to accept the shoe. This will temporarily raise the spring clip up.
d. then, with the "L" end of the allen acting like a fulcrum, you can use a flathead screwdriver to bend the outer end of the spring clip (the end closer to you) back down. This will induce more down-bend into the spring clip, which will provide a tighter, more "stiff bounce" grab to the shoe.

Regards,

TJ

(Oh ... Ed ... "Bring it on!") 

===

For Search hits:

pickup plate spring clip tension
contact plate spring clip tension
bend pickup plate clip
bend contact plate clip


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Regards,
> 
> TJ
> 
> ...



And....in this corner we have the original Tin Man and he is smoking to go.









And in this corner we have newcomer Tin Man Too.









The original Tin Man does excellent work!:thumbsup:
But unlike the newcomer Tin Man Too, is afraid to use any bold colors on his work.
The newcomer is willing to go where Tin Man original has not ventured yet.

And as you can see Tin Man Too does excellent work too.:thumbsup:

Place your bets...it's going to be a slug-fest.

Hey Tin Man Too, tell the wife she has great tastes in color.:thumbsup: And if you do the Alien florescent green use a white base coat.
I have been researching Alien green paint jobs.:thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Afraid? Afraid???

Three words: blue velvet Elvis!


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

TJCruiser, I did read the forum on "how to remove the fiber pick up plate" but to my dismay, one side was bent so bad I thought it would be best to remove it.

Big ED, the wife has also researched the "fluorescent" colors, and a white base primer is recomended...........hhmmmm.....I do have that 243 ebay purchase being sent to me, maybe, just maybe...

And don't worry TJ, your passion in your work proceeds you....you are the "original" TIN MAN.......just be sure to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's", cause there's a new player in town......the "TIN MAN TOO" has arrived! ha ha ha

All joking aside, thanks all for the warm welcome, much appreciated!

FYI, I did "rough" wire the 1700E up as per the "Tin Man's" diagram he sent me and................perfecto!, now all I need to do is wire it permanent, gears and wheels. Thanks for the help!!!!! will keep you all posted on the progress.


Regards,

Robert (TIN MAN TOO)


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

I see a good 1681 re-paint candidate on ebay(.....a tad high in price for me) but it sure would be nice.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Afraid? Afraid???
> 
> Three words: blue velvet Elvis!



LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!:laugh:

67-scout, I was going to use a cheap Lionel Scout (plastic) for an Alien color. Plus I have a bunch sitting around.

I don't know if I could do it to something like a Hudson engine.
edit,
I already wrecked one Hudson,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7467


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

Big Ed, I too would not touch the hudson, I may think about a "el cheapo" scout shell, and I perfer the cast shell's myself....I find it easier to remove old paint using my "top secret" method.......soaking in pine sol ! this way if the paint doesn't turn out right I can let it soak in the pine sol for a few days and re-do. Also cooking the paint in my "paint oven" is much less stressful with the diecast shells....I'm sure you know what i mean, I've seen the thread on what happens to a plastic shell in a oven ! ha ha ha.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

You will need to countersink the screw holes to recess the heads. It is hard to get good results using a hand drill. Also the frame metal is relatively thin and after counter sinking there will be very little contact area with the screw head. You might just use round head screws to improve the looks. I would suggest stainless screws - no rust, and forget the lock-tite, easier to take apart for future repairs. Just food for thought...

B


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree with Bruce's comments above.

I use button-head cap screws (inset Allen head) quite a bit on my Lionel train refits ...










TJ


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

Inxy and TJ, you both made very good points, the only hole I have to be careful with is the one near the front wheels. the wheel flange will rub against the bolt head if the head is too big. I just received my "bowser" replacement wheels and it looks as though I will have enough clearance but I do like TJ's allen head bolts! I will be visiting my local hardware store this weekend and check out the stainless steel bolt selection !

I will also skip the lock-tite, if any of the bolts come loose I'll look at a different solution, this is my 1st time seperating the motor plates so I wasn't sure if they would vibrate loose during use.

Thanks again,

Regards,


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Robert,

Good dialog here. I've never fiddled with one of those 1700's firsthand. I'm enjoying a closer peek via your thread. (I embedded a few of your photos above for easier viewing.)

Question ...

On top of the motor, there's a flexy plate that holds the light socket. The plate is held in place via the "ball head" that fits into the socket in the underside of the loco shell. On the REAR side of the flexy plate, there's a slight upwards bend to the plate, and then a triangular pointy tab that pokes up into the air (and presumably hits the underside of the shell). What does that pointy tab accomplish? An electrical ground ???

Very curious,

TJ


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

TJ, I believe the only reason for the brass plate being attached to the light housing is to keep the light pointing straight, the triangular tab that points upward, stays directly behind the mounting bracket that is attached to the chrome roof and keeps the light straight. once the motor is mounted inside the shell, the light stays straight. Otherwise without a fixed light bracket I believe the light would move/turn and not direct any light out the front. Make sense?

I have attached a few pics of the set with the motor in and running. This "LIL JR" is pulling 4 cars without too much trouble!!!!! (thanks to your wiring diagram) As with many O27 or Jr motors, it doesn't like the O22 switches I have but if I get time I will work on that too.

I still am going to look for some button head bolts for the motor frame but I just had to see if the Ole Jr had anything left in her!!!!!!!


----------



## 67-SCOUT (Sep 15, 2011)

TJ, also about the headlight, the brass plate is not a ground, the light works with the shell on or off!


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Robert. The whole train looks wonderful on the track!

TJ


----------

