# Lionel 33 Running Slowly/Weakly



## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I've posted about this before, but as there's a new Tinplate Forum and the original thread is old I'm going to try reposting it. My Lionel 33 is running slowly. I've replaced its brushes, lubricated, and cleaned a lot of it with Isopropyl alcohol, which improved it a little. But it went back to worse now and never really was able to pull cars. Now it barely runs. It seems to run a lot better backwards than forwards, maybe even at a fair speed. My Lionel 390 is slow on some parts of the track, but it runs a lot better than the 33 so it can't be the track. There's a lot of arcing on one of the brushes. It seems to run at a good speed when I test it off the track, but it runs slowly when going forward on the track. It still runs, it's just extremely slow or at least extremely weak. Can anyone help? How can I make it run better?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

This goes back to your original post, Clean the Track, make sure the track pins are good and tight, with solid connections. If my memory serves me correctly, you said that the track wasn't in the BEST of shape. 

Try something, to check your 33 out. Do you have any kind of jumper cords, with alligator clips on the ends? If you do, take the loco off the track and test it all by itself. Hook up one lead from the transformer, to the pick up contact under the motor. Hook the other lead up to anything metal, on the loco, which is the ground return. I would suspend it from the front and back on wooden blocks, so that the wheels can turn freely. Turn up the voltage on the transformer, and see how it runs, by itself. IF it seems to run a lot better, without slowing down, then you narrowed the problem to the track, which will need attention.

Other than that, I can't help you.


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

1. Are the roller pickups pitted or have a groove in? If it runs well with the jumpers attached as in the prior comment, it rollers may not be making good contact with the center rail. I have had several that ran poorly that had grooved rollers and as soon as I adjusted the pickup so the groove was not the contact point with the center rail, they ran perfect

2. With the jumpers attached, run the motor with the engine inverted and drip you oil onto the turning axles. This lets the oil penetrate into the bearings better than oiling them not running. I usually get a steady pickup in speed.


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## Steve "Papa" Eastman (Jan 27, 2016)

You said you replaced the brushes, but did you replace the springs also? 

Steve "Papa" Eastman


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Im going with the pu too. Roll the train over your track and look to see if they are making good contact with the track. Also, check the connections, sometimes something gets loose thats hard to see. Post pictures if you can. We might be able to see what you don't. Good luck


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I'm not sure if it's the track, because my 390E can make it around the track just fine, aside from being slow on some parts. But it still runs a lot better than the 33. Not sure if I replaced the springs. It seems to run fairly fast off the track, however I don't know how much strength it has. One thing I should note is that the armature coils are pretty blackened, I wouldn't necessarily say burnt but they are dirty. I tested the resistance with the armature and it didn't have any unusual readings to indicate a short circuit. The center rail pickup it uses is sort of a sled instead of a roller. I'm suspicious it might be the reverse unit as it runs better backwards, the coil above the motor because it runs weakly, or the armature, but I don't know. Which contact on the motor do I hook the first wire up to?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I suggest you go back to your original post, that Haggy38 explained everything he did to get his running in tip-top shape. You are going to have the "Take the Bull By the Horns" so to speak, and tear the whole motor down, clean everything, and I mean everything, with Isopropyl alcohol, use pipe cleaners or Q-tips to clean out the brush tubes, check the springs. DO NOT use SANDPAPER at all on the track. Get a Scotchbrite pad, and use that on the track, with a final wipe down with alcohol.

If you are careful, you can pull the wheels off using two flat blade screwdrivers, on opposite sides of the wheel, and exert pressure inward toward the axle. While exerting pressure toward the axle, try to lift up on the wheel, to break it loose from the axle. If you can get the wheels off, pull the axle out of the motor, and clean inside the bushing that that axle rides on.

You say that even the 390E also slows in some spots on the track....WELL that right there tells you that you have a problem with the track in that, or other spots, that needs attention. Where it slows down, recrimp the track pins, and I even suggest putting a very slight bend on the center pin, as that is where the voltage is present. Just bend the pin ever so slightly either to the right or left, so that when the track sections go back together, it is a good tight solid connection.

You are looking for a QUICK FIX, and not tackling the problem head on.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

i was never crazy about the screw driver approach I suspend the motor from the wheel, using a modified putty knife , preferably two oposing each other with a length wise notch. WIth a drift pin I punch the axle down and out.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Should I clean the armature coils too with the alcohol?


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I just played around with the upper brush spring and it seems to be working now. Brush replacement on it wasn't exactly easy, especially since it's 100 years old so I messed up the brush tubes a bit, however it does still work. It can go all the way around the track, but not with both cars. It can't go past the one curve, but the 390E has a hard time with that curve so the track is the problem there. It can pull both quite a bit though. I'll probably end up replacing the brush tubes and springs sooner or later, but I'll keep this thread updated as I have a suspicion the problem won't be fixed until I can replace that brush and tube.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

What are the correct model numbers of the brush tube, brush cap, brush spring, and brush it uses? I'm thinking of redoing the brush replacement but replacing the tube assembly and spring as well. The brushes I got the first time worked, but I had to sand them thinner so I don't think it's as reliable.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Brush assembly part numbers*

The brush tube is part# M-46; the brush tube cap w/screw is part# M-47; the brushes and brush springs are M-50 & M-53. You will have to shop around to see who has them available, as not all dealers carry all the items.

Have you attempted to try and take the wheels off yet? You can try to just grab each wheel on a single axle, in your hands, and try to twist them off, by hand. Use a rocking motion, with twisting the left hand in one direction, and twist the other wheel in the opposite direction. You can usually pry the wheels off that way, as the axles on these early Std. gauge motors are perfectly smooth, without any knurling on the ends, where the wheel sits.

I only suggest taking the wheels off, so that you can do a real good cleaning job, with the axle bushings, that pass through the motor, the inside surface of the wheels, and you can get to any of the gearing, to clean it all off real good. There is no reason that your 33 can't run great, with the proper maintenance of cleaning, and lubricating, and new brushes.


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## Prewar Pappy (Jul 26, 2015)

*Did You Forget This Important Step?*

I have read all of the recommendations thus far. No one mentioned this very important step. On the early 33's the brushes must be arched so that the concave portion matches the armature. Make certain that you are using the correct brushes. Prewar brushes are not as tall as the postwar counterparts. Also, recheck to verify that you have the correct springs.

Next, check the pick-up foot. It may need to be replaced if tension cannot be adjusted correctly.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Pappy, Good advice from someone with a Standard Gauge background. I don't have anything in Standard Gauge, so it isn't something I would be familiar with. Anything else you can add would be a benefit, for re-habbing these old creatures from a sure Death Bed.
LOL


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Sorry for the late reply, but I've finally gotten around to trying to get the wheels off. I managed to get both wheel sets off without damaging the train. It took a lot of effort, especially for the second one, but I've got them. I noticed the separate washer pieces too, didn't forget them. There's two gold colored ones for the non-geared wheels and slightly different washers for the gear ones. They were kind of stuck in the oil. The wheel assembly was quite filthy  There was black residue all over the axles and washers. I'll leave the wheel assembly off for now since I should be able to get the new brushes at the train show this weekend. What should I do now that I have the wheels off?



Prewar Pappy said:


> I have read all of the recommendations thus far. No one mentioned this very important step. On the early 33's the brushes must be arched so that the concave portion matches the armature. Make certain that you are using the correct brushes. Prewar brushes are not as tall as the postwar counterparts. Also, recheck to verify that you have the correct springs.
> 
> Next, check the pick-up foot. It may need to be replaced if tension cannot be adjusted correctly.


The foot seems to be okay, not too much pressure, still touches the track. I definitely messed up the brush assembly, I'll get new brush tubes and springs, hopefully at the train show. How do I arch them, are they already arched when you get them or do you have to run the train to do it?


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## Prewar Pappy (Jul 26, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Sorry for the late reply, but I've finally gotten around to trying to get the wheels off. I managed to get both wheel sets off without damaging the train. It took a lot of effort, especially for the second one, but I've got them. I noticed the separate washer pieces too, didn't forget them.The wheel assembly was quite filthy  There was black residue all over the axles and washers. I'll leave the wheel assembly off for now since I should be able to get the new brushes at the train show this weekend. What should I do now that I have the wheels off?
> The foot seems to be okay, not too much pressure, still touches the track. I definitely messed up the brush assembly, I'll get new brush tubes and springs, hopefully at the train show. How do I arch them, are they already arched when you get them or do you have to run the train to do it?


The dirty work is ahead of you. You will need some electrical contact cleaner (two cans). I buy mine from www.allelectronics.com You will find the 16oz can the better buy. You want the cleaner that does not leave a residue. Remember to spray away from spark or flame. This spray is safe around plastics. I've been using it for almost 20 years. Let us know when you're ready to proceed.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Finally found some of the cleaner, it's called CRC QD Contact Cleaner, it's a quick drying formula that's plastic safe and leaves no residue. I only have one can right now. Will this contact cleaner work?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

AS it says it is Plastic safe, it is a very good cleaner, along with Alcohol which also evaporates quickly. The key is to get all the mechanical parts of the motor as clean as possible, and apply a good oil around the axle bearings both inside the motor and between the outside and the wheels. If you can get that done, and install the new brush tubes, and brushes, it should run like it was supposed to, and be able to pull at least 3 maybe four cars. The bad spot in the track is another issue that you need to fix also. 

Progress report when you get it back together.......


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Finally found some of the cleaner, it's called CRC QD Contact Cleaner, it's a quick drying formula that's plastic safe and leaves no residue. I only have one can right now. Will this contact cleaner work?


Good stuff, :smilie_daumenpos: we deliver the chemicals to make it out to the CRC, Warminster plant in Pa.
Our chemicals are in a lot of things one uses for the trains.
Cleaners, paint, oils, polish, lubricants, you name it.
A lot came out of my tank truck. 

And.......It is Made in the USA. :smokin:

Why are you holding back on posting pictures of this fix?:dunno:


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Very sorry for the really late reply, I've been busy lately. You're right, some pictures definitely would be a good idea. I've taken some pictures of how I have it now but I need to go see if I can find the USB cord that lets me upload them.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

How far along have you gotten with tearing it down, cleaning, and MAYBE putting it back together??? Was anything a struggle?


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I've taken the wheels and shell off, I couldn't do too much else because I was busy and didn't know where to clean- I know I definitely need to clean the motor, but should I clean the coils or just the commutator? Another problem is that I was hoping on getting some new brushes but they didn't have any at the Spring Thaw train meet, I may need to order some online.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

You will most likely have to order the brushes, as they are not a common item to show up at a train show. Finding specific Prewar parts at any Show are slim to none. 

Clean out the brush tubes, polish the armature facing that the brushes ride on. Clean out the axle bushings on both sides of the motor. Polish and lube the axles when you start to reassemble.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Unfortunately I don't think I can post pictures at the moment, because iPod charger cords have a nasty habit of either getting lost, or suddenly having their insulation start to strip off for no reason. I should be able to start working on the train once Summer comes, which luckily is only in a few weeks.


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