# Final preparations for a winter build



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I started this obsession last winter, when there was no yard work to do, and it was difficult to do anything socially. It started with a suggestion from my wife: "Why don't you get out your old train set?"

The fuse was lit... there's no stopping the rocket until the fuel burns out, LOL!

Anyway, I am to the point where I've finalized my plan, and will start building in about 3-4 weeks, so I'm planning the final stages of acquiring supplies for the build

I am committed to using Peco code 80 turnouts (already bought 15 of them), and now I need to get some bulk N gauge Code 80 flex track. I have also acquired several pieces of Atlas Code 80 sectional track for key pieces, like 90 degree crossings, short straight pieces (for use near turnouts) and rerailers (using for road crossings). I'm leaning toward Atlas Flex track, as it seems to be the most available. I already have 15 or so pieces from back in the 90's... some of which are a bit buggered up, but, from which some shorter sections are salvageable. And I will also use some of theses buggered-up pieces to practice soldering leads.

Would any of you choose a code 80 N gauge flex track OTHER THAN Atlas? And if so, why? I'm quite intrigued by Micro Engineering since their flex track holds a curve, but I don't see anything from them in Code 80.

Also, it seems that the price is pretty consistent at around $4.50 (give or take) no matter if buying a single piece or a pack of 25. I have found a supply at less than $4.00 each when buying 100 pieces or more. But that's about twice the quantity I will need.

Do any of you have a source for Atlas Code 80 flex track in bulk for less than $4.50 per piece?

Any other suggestions for a guy about to begin a winter build?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I started this obsession last winter, when there was no yard work to do, and it was difficult to do anything socially. It started with a suggestion from my wife: "Why don't you get out your old train set?"
> 
> The fuse was lit... there's no stopping the rocket until the fuel burns out, LOL!
> 
> ...


Jeff;

Since you are using code 80 turnouts & track, the Peco turnouts are an excellent choice,& the Atlas track is mechanically quite reliable. Its big drawback is appearance, not function.
Code 80 scales up to rail a foot high in real life. That's much higher than any rail ever used on a real railroad. The other appearance issue with Atlas code 80 is the ties. They are too short, and spaced too far apart.
I use Micro Engineering code 55 flex for all visible track, because it looks so much more realistic. However, in my hidden staging yard, I use Atlas code 80. I had a bunch sitting around, and its cheaper than Micro Engineering track. Looks don't matter if you can't see it. 😄 

Recently Atlas has improved the looks of their code 55 flex track considerably. Atlas code 55 always looked better than their code 80. The brown ties on older Atlas code 55 were longer, and the tie spacing was reduced, both making it look a bit more realistic. One issue with the Atlas code 55 track was the oversized spikes, which deep, "pizza cutter" wheels would hit. This caused those wheels to rattle along the track on top of the spikes. Shallow flanged wheels did not have this problem.
The new Atlas code 55 flex looks great, close to Micro Engineering's excellent appearance. The giant spikes are gone from the flex track too. Deep flanged wheels just barely clear the smaller spikes on the new Atlas code 55 flex track. Oddly, the current production Atlas code 55 sectional track has spikes that deep flanged wheels do still hit and rattle, rattle, rattle. Go figure. 

I think your price of $4.50 ea. is normal. Other than buying twice what you need, you're not likely to find it cheaper, at least not new. Used track, deep in the wilds of E-bay is a whole other thing. Personally, I stay away from "the bay." The attached file has more info on track and track laying.
Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hey Jeff,

I'd stick with Atlas code 80 flex track. It's almost always readily available, and it mates with your Peco code 80 switches just fine. That's the standard that we, along with a lot of other clubs, run on our N-Trak modular layouts. And it's easy to work with. Since it's "springy", it also makes it really easy to lay nice, smooth curves.

I have Atlas code 55 on my home layout. It is very good looking track. But at the same time, if you paint, ballast, and weather your code 80 track, it can look pretty decent too. Plus you can run anything on code 80 track. Atlas code 55 track needs low profile wheels for everything to run properly.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

OK, so if the price was the same between Peco Code 80 and Atlas Code 80, which is better?

Peco is 36" while Atlas is 30"

Using Anyrail, I designed my layout with Peco track so I could create the design using the Peco turnouts. This way, the geometry would be correct. Unfortunately, AnyRail does not allow you to connect a piece of Atlas track to Peco track, even though in real life you can. So I had to create the whole layout using Peco Code 80.

The plan I created calls for 50 pieces of Peco flex track. Peco flex track is 20% longer than Atlas, So I will need 60 pieces of Atlas, give or take minor differences in scrap as I trim pieces to length.

I really wish I could see the 2 side by side.. I don't mind spending a little more on the flex track if Peco is just a better product. On the other hand, I already have a few pieces of Atlas dimensional track such as 90 degree crossings and short straight sections for use with turnouts.

As usual, I'm over-thinking things... I get stuck in analysis paralysis...


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

OK, never mind... I found Atlas Code 80 flex track for $4.00 per piece at Tony's Train Xchange. Just ordered 60 pieces and a couple more Peco turnouts.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> OK, so if the price was the same between Peco Code 80 and Atlas Code 80, which is better?
> 
> Peco is 36" while Atlas is 30"
> 
> ...


Jeff;

Either Peco, or Atlas, flex track will work fine. In general, Peco is known as a high quality brand, and Atlas is more "the cheap stuff." in the particular case of flex track though it would at best be an improvement in looks to use the Peco. Atlas flex track works just as well as anybody's flex track, Atlas code 80 flex just looks unrealistic. If they are actually the same price per section* and Peco gives you an extra 6" per section then that will save you a little money. Also, I suspect the Peco track will look a bit better than the Atlas code 80. The tie length, and spacing, may be better on the Peco. Another trick I found out that Peco uses on their "code 55" N-scale turnouts is using code 80 rail, but with all but .055" of it buried in a thick plastic tie strip. This makes the bond between rail and ties exceptionally strong.
I doubt that this trick is used, or even necessary, on Peco's code 80 track, but I don't know since I have not used it. 
One "downside" of Peco track, occasionally complained about here, is that the Peco track (and turnouts) are based on British prototypes, not American, so the appearance is a little off. Since your happy with code 80 Atlas flex, I doubt that appearance is a big issue for you. I have not used Peco track, though I do have some of their turnouts on my layout. I don't feel the "British look" is an issue. Painted and ballasted, its not obvious at all. 

Traction Fan 🙂 

* Are you sure about the pricing of Peco and Atlas flex track being the same? That seems odd to me, since Atlas products tend to be less expensive than their competitors, including Peco.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

TF, I found a source for Peco Code 80 at $3.80 per piece, but when I researched the seller, I saw all sorts of bad reviews... So I figured if it's too good to be true, it probably is, LOL.

I ended up ordering 60 pieces of Atlas flex track from Tony's Train Exchange. They have it listed for $4.00 per piece, which is the least expensive I could find from a reputable source.

Thank you all for your guidance!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> TF, I found a source for Peco Code 80 at $3.80 per piece, but when I researched the seller, I saw all sorts of bad reviews... So I figured if it's too good to be true, it probably is, LOL.
> 
> I ended up ordering 60 pieces of Atlas flex track from Tony's Train Exchange. They have it listed for $4.00 per piece, which is the least expensive I could find from a reputable source.
> 
> Thank you all for your guidance!


Jeff;

It sounds like you made the right choice. Tony's train exchange is a reputable dealer. It sounds like the "Peco for $3.80 ea." guy is not! Good call. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Tony's came through! The Flex Track and a couple more Peco turnouts arrived this past weekend. Pretty quick turnaround, and excellent prices!!!

Next up on the agenda is foam board insulation... Looks like Menards has the best prices.

I spent a few hours yesterday contemplating how to layer the boards so that all my bridges will be at the right elevation for smooth operations as a train enters and exits each bridge. I think I have a plan that will accomplish that, and will also allow for removable pieces of the tops of mountains for access to the tunnels that will run beneath.

I'm getting excited to enter into the first stages of actually building the layout I have been planning for about 9 months now.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Tony's came through! The Flex Track and a couple more Peco turnouts arrived this past weekend. Pretty quick turnaround, and excellent prices!!!
> 
> Next up on the agenda is foam board insulation... Looks like Menards has the best prices.
> 
> ...


Jeff;

For permanent bonding of those foam sheets you might consider using latex calk, white glue, (Elmer's) or hot glue, or double-sided tape. The first two have slow (overnight) curing times to get the strongest bond these adhesives can produce. The second two are just the opposite, they bond instantly. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. The slow adhesives give you lots of working time. You can move the foam around as needed. The downside is that getting a bond all the way across a 4 x 8 sheet can be difficult/impossible. Some of the adhesive in the middle may never cure, since it can't get air. 

On the other hand hot glue bonds very quickly, a couple of seconds is typical. Double -sided tape is even faster, in fact it is instantaneous, and very permanent. You have to be sure exactly where you want the second layer to go onto the first one. The tape grips aggressively on contact, and there is no moving that sheet if you're a little off. This shouldn't be a serious problem when you're simply layering the sheets. If they don't line up exactly, so what. They don't really need to be prefect, just reasonably close. Later, when attaching smaller pieces, say to build a hill, you might opt for a slower glue, since you may want to move pieces around to et the best look. 

To fasten entire sheets with white glue, I would:

1) Buy a gallon of the stuff.

2) Use a paint roller to spread a thin, even, layer across the entire surface of both sheets to be bonded, and let the glue dry overnight, with the two sheets of foam still separated. Next day, roll another thin coat on one sheet and lay the two sheets on top of each other. Put weights on the top sheet. (Bricks, or those 12" square concrete paver blocks, work well.) Then let it dry overnight. 
This method sort of mimics the operation of contact cement. However unlike many contact cements, the white glue won't attack the foam. Also unlike contact cement, white glue doesn't grab instantly and forevermore. You have some working time to line the sheets up.



If you decide to use hot glue, here are some things I've learned by experience. (Sometimes bitter experience!  )

1) Have a large, wide, bowl, or cake pan, filled half way with ice water near your hot glue working area. Hot glue is (Duh! ) HOT!  Plenty hot enough to burn your fingers when (notice that I said not "if" but when) you get some bit of screaming hot glue on them. Plunge your hand into the ice water quickly and you can usually prevent burned skin. 

2) Use a "Low Temp" glue gun. Many have a switch to select High, or Low, temperature. For both your skin, and the foam, Low is better. Its still hot enough to bond the foam, but not hot enough to melt all the way through a 1/2" thick sheet of foam. 

3) Use a "cordless" glue gun. I don't mean one with a battery, like cordless drills have. There is a type that plugs into its holding base, which in turn is plugged into the wall. You plug the gun into the base, wait for it to heat up enough to melt the glue stick, unplug it and go do your gluing. The heat in the unplugged gun lasts for a few minutes, and then you plug it back into the base. Re-heating time is pretty short. The cordless gun makes life easier. Otherwise, the cord is often dragged into your way.

4) Hot glue will work anywhere, including the center area. Later, when you're carving some scenery and you run into some cured glue, you can simply cut through it.


Double-sided tape is different. If you run into a strip of tape when carving scenery, you can cut through it, but it will leave an obvious seam line. One trick I've used when hot gluing the pieces of tree bark in the photos of the cliff, was to stagger, and slope, the pieces. You can do the same with foam, and the seam lines will look more natural that way. After all. you can see such seams in natural rock formations, or even a deep hole in the ground. Goggle the Grand Canyon, and you'll see a spectacular example of this "layered look." 

For those removeable tunnel tops, you might use dowels to make alignment pegs. Gravity will hold the top down reasonably well, but nothing prevents it from moving horizontally, unless you add something into your mountain. Magnet tape, or Velcro, are other possibilities. I use alignment pegs to get my removable "city blocks" lined up when I put them back over my concealed staging yard, under "Seattle." Magnets hold the various blocks to each other, end-to-end.

One further recommendation about tunnel access. Make the opening, and removable top, as large as possible. Larger than you think it needs to be. Heck, make the whole mountain removeable, if you can. The reason is access. Most newbies, and a lot of not-so-newbies, don't make good arrangements for enough access to hidden track. Hidden track will get dirty, and have trains derail, just as much as non-hidden track. The best access possible is to remove all of whatever is hiding the track. I do this with my lightweight removeable city blocks. This makes hidden track into exposed track, with the same degree of access.
Shoving a stick into a tunnel portal isn't good access. Neither is a small opening in a long tunnel, where if you bend your head down, and use a flashlight, you can maybe, sort of, see the track out to both ends of the tunnel. You might be surprised at the number of experienced modelers who have such lame arrangements on their layouts. 

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I already have a few tubes of liquid nails for projects, and was planning to use that to lay down the foam unless that's not a good idea. I seem to remember it being one of the recommended adhesives.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I already have a few tubes of liquid nails for projects, and was planning to use that to lay down the foam unless that's not a good idea. I seem to remember it being one of the recommended adhesives.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Jeff;
> ...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you type 1000 words a minute?
More?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Thanks for the advice, TF!

My layout has a few miles of track at "ground level" which will also have a couple sidings, and a small yard and a couple of spurs to service industries. There will also be an elevated level that will be 2.5" higher. This elevated track will mostly be a "run around" track with only a couple spurs. This way, I can let the upper train run while I operate the lower level with more "jobs" to do. For the upper level, I plan to use a layer of 2" foam with another 1/2" layer on top of that. The top of the 1/2" sheet will be the surface that the elevated sections will run on. The ground level track will tunnel underneath the upper level in a few places. I figure the 2" layer will have voids for the tunnels, and the 1/2" layer will be the top of the tunnels and the surface for the elevated sections. The longest tunnel will be about 18", so I plan to have the cover for that particular tunnel to be a 12" x 6" rectangle that will overlap the void beneath by a couple inches on every side.... I think that will allow sufficient access, what do you think? The removable top will not have any track on it... just scenery and maybe a structure or 2. I was thinking about having a couple of tree stumps or telephone poles to use for "handles" so I can lift the cover up and away for tunnel access.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

OK, so I just got handed a dose of "trying to save money sometimes costs more in the end." Haha!

I came across a guy selling 3 sheets of Owens Corning 1.5" foam board for $10 each, and I thought "Perfect for my base layer, to set the "ground level" for the lower track. This would be thick enough to bury the Peco electric switches under each turnout!" But I didn't think about how much clearance I would want under the bridges that go over the river for the barge traffic... Thurns out 2" is necessary. So now I'm planning to add a 1/2" to build up the "ground level" to 2" above the river. In N scale, that's about 27 feet, which is still low for prototypical clearance for barge traffic, but... I'll employ Rule 1 and say "it's OK for my railroad!

So I'll be heading to Menards to get a few 1/2" sheets tomorrow morning. Would have been cheaper to just buy 2" foam board to begin with.

Also, I really underestimated the amount of Liquid Nails for Projects it would take to lay down a layer of foam... So I'll be buying a few more tubes of that too!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> OK, so I just got handed a dose of "trying to save money sometimes costs more in the end." Haha!
> 
> I came across a guy selling 3 sheets of Owens Corning 1.5" foam board for $10 each, and I thought "Perfect for my base layer, to set the "ground level" for the lower track. This would be thick enough to bury the Peco electric switches under each turnout!" But I didn't think about how much clearance I would want under the bridges that go over the river for the barge traffic... Thurns out 2" is necessary. So now I'm planning to add a 1/2" to build up the "ground level" to 2" above the river. In N scale, that's about 27 feet, which is still low for prototypical clearance for barge traffic, but... I'll employ Rule 1 and say "it's OK for my railroad!
> 
> ...


Jeff;

We all learn from experience, often by mistakes. You're not alone. Been there, done that, in one way or another! 

Traction Fan


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Added a half inch to bring ground level up to 2" so the bridges can sit at a more appropriate level.

Starting to visualize track layout V2.1


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Tracing the centerline of the lower level track, and starting to shape the foam for the upper level. In this first picture, you can see the void in the upper layer of foamboard where the lower track will go through a tunnel. I'm getting close to having the bridges in their place... just need to be sure the track will go over the bridge without any humps in the line. The upper level will have another 1/2" layer of foam on top. This 1/2" layer will cover the tunnels, but I will have a rectangular section above the tunnel that is removable for access below. I'm leaving a gap about 6" wide for the tunnel, and the removable section will overlap that by 2-3" on each side. I will lay the lower level track and run trains for several days (to be sure the lower level runs well) before moving on to the upper level. The upper level will be separate from the lower level. I had though about having inclines to connect the lower to upper, but decided against that. 











But before I do that, I need to come up with a base layer for the riverbed... something that will hold its place and be really thin. The plan is to coat the riverbed with paintable caulking, then paint it, then cover it with Envirotex. So before I set the bridges, I need to lay down something thin (to not raise the level of the waterline too much), set the bridges, then coat the riverbed in caulk so the Envirotex won't drip through the seems in the table. The pieces of foam that are holding up the bridges are just there to get a feel for the height of the bridges. I'll either shape these into something that resembles a pier, or will buy some piers... not sure yet.









The Elevated viaduct style bridge is a kit from Faller. Leading to that bridge on either side is a kit-bashed double bridge made form 2 Atlas girder bridges. I used a hobby mitre saw to remove teh girder on one bridge so that when combined, the width would be correct so that the tracks will line up.

This last pic is just showing me playing around with some scrap pieces of foam to represent how I plan to build up the hill on the upper level.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Tracing the centerline of the lower level track, and starting to shape the foam for the upper level. In this first picture, you can see the void in the upper layer of foamboard where the lower track will go through a tunnel. I'm getting close to having the bridges in their place... just need to be sure the track will go over the bridge without any humps in the line. The upper level will have another 1/2" layer of foam on top. This 1/2" layer will cover the tunnels, but I will have a rectangular section above the tunnel that is removable for access below. I'm leaving a gap about 6" wide for the tunnel, and the removable section will overlap that by 2-3" on each side. I will lay the lower level track and run trains for several days (to be sure the lower level runs well) before moving on to the upper level. The upper level will be separate from the lower level. I had though about having inclines to connect the lower to upper, but decided against that.
> 
> View attachment 569329
> 
> ...


\


JeffHurl;

I have a suggestion for your Atlas plate girder approach bridges. Those Atlas bridges are models of a through plate girder bridge. That type of bridge, with the plate girders at, & above, track level, is one the prototype doesn't use unless the clearance below the bridge make it necessary. Far more common, and often used for approach spans to larger bridges, is the deck plate girder type, with the plate girders below the track (see photos) The deck type is less expensive to build, and maintain. It also lets maintenance crews & equipment work without the obstruction of the girders sticking up above track level.

My suggestion would be to simply turn your Atlas plate girder bridges upside down, (and optionally narrow them so that the girders are below the tracks.)
Its your railroad of course, and you may, or may not, have clearance since it looks like a track runs below one of the Atlas bridges. By the way, is there enough clearance under the near end of the Faller viaduct bridge, where another track passes under? Have you checked that clearance with an NMRA gauge? It looks like double stack container cars, or domed passenger cars might not clear it.

Micro Engineering makes beautifully-detailed model kits of deck plate girder bridges, with your choice of open deck (wood ties) or ballasted deck. I know Atlas makes a deck truss bridge (which would block the lower track) but I'm not sure they make a deck plate girder bridge. The ones in the photos are Micro Engineering.

As for the river bottom, how about just cutting out the bottom of the river (it looks like you may already have?) and mounting a piece of 1/4" Masonite to the bottom just below the foam "river banks?" Then you would maintain full elevation for your bridges.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Thanks for the advice, TF!

I would flip the bridges except there will be tracks underneath them. A main line and one spur on the East side of the river, and on the West, a main line and 2 spurs. Each main line was carefully planned to go under the center of one of the arches of the viaduct. There is 2" of height clearence above both edges of the tracks when the tracks are on a cork roadbed... But just used a ruler. I haven't bought a NMRA gauge yet. I can raise the height of the elevated track, and therefore the viaduct if I need to.

My plan is to get the ground level track laid first, but will hold off on final placement of the Spurs until I know the viaduct will provide sufficient clearance.

About the river... I was planning the water level to be as close to the wood table as possible. Ground level is currently 2" above that. The tugboats barely fit under the 2 ground level bridges as is, so I need to find a thin substrate. Perhaps the thin foam used under laminate flooring?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Thanks for the advice, TF!
> 
> I would flip the bridges except there will be tracks underneath them. A main line and one spur on the East side of the river, and on the West, a main line and 2 spurs. Each main line was carefully planned to go under the center of one of the arches of the viaduct. There is 2" of height clearence above both edges of the tracks when the tracks are on a cork roadbed... But just used a ruler. I haven't bought a NMRA gauge yet. I can raise the height of the elevated track, and therefore the viaduct if I need to.
> 
> ...


Jeff;

Having to clear those tracks below is a prototypical reason for using a through plate girder bridge, so your choice makes perfect sense.
The NMRA gauge can check more than wheel & track gauge, including minimal clearances, both vertical, and to either side. Two inches should work though.
I suggested putting the river level below the foam because you pointed out the tight vertical clearance between river, and bridge. I don't know what kind of table surface you will have under the foam sheet. In your photo, it looks like the river is already cut all the way through the foam and shows what appears to be a dining room table? Even if you plan to use a plywood-topped table, you could cut the riverbed through the plywood, & gain another 1/2" or so of clearance by attaching the Masonite to the bottom of the plywood. If your going to use open grid, you could get even more clearance.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I got a bunch of modular desks for free. Each desk was made up of a 66"x30" work surface with a 66"x24" return. They were held together with flat metal brackets. I took 4 desks and, rather than assemble as an L, made 4 66"x54" tables and made an inverted U. I know it's not the best bench work, but it was free😀


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Cork is laid on the ground level in the West Virginia side of the river.





I left the turnouts in place just to be sure the roadbed is good.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I have most of my Peco turnouts mated up with PL-10 switches and the leads are all soldered. I chose solid core 22 gauge wire for the turnout switch leads. Blue is common, Green is for the mainline route and Yellow is for the diverging route. For track power, I think I will use Black and Red, with 14 gauge bus and 22 gauge feeders. I'm going to test my wiring for the Auto Reversing module and the planned isolation joints. I really want to be sure I have the gaps and wiring perfect before I use an adhesive to lay down the track. I also want to be sure the bridges are all the proper level before gluing in the piers and abutments.

While I'm testing, I'm just going to actuate the points by hand to be sure it all runs well, which is fine because my CDU is still in transit.

I have about 1/4 of the track laid in the West.

My layout is attached. It's 11 feet wide by 10 feet deep with a 2 foot aisle in the open part of teh inverted U.

I know some of you will scoff at the symmetry and lack of yards/switching, but. I'm evoking the first rule of model railroading, LOL! 

The green section is elevated 2.5 inches from the ground level. 3 bridges... 2 on ground level and a double bridge for the elevated section. The Ohio River will bisect the Eastern side (WV) and the Western side (OH).


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I have most of my Peco turnouts mated up with PL-10 switches and the leads are all soldered. I chose solid core 22 gauge wire for the turnout switch leads. Blue is common, Green is for the mainline route and Yellow is for the diverging route. For track power, I think I will use Black and Red, with 14 gauge bus and 22 gauge feeders. I'm going to test my wiring for the Auto Reversing module and the planned isolation joints. I really want to be sure I have the gaps and wiring perfect before I use an adhesive to lay down the track. I also want to be sure the bridges are all the proper level before gluing in the piers and abutments.
> 
> While I'm testing, I'm just going to actuate the points by hand to be sure it all runs well, which is fine because my CDU is still in transit.
> 
> ...


Jeff:

"Hokey smokes Bullwinkle, that's a lot of track! Your track seems to run parallel to the edge of the layout in many places. Hopefully not close enough that trains can fall off the edge & hit the floor.  I don't know the scale of your plan, so I can't tell how close the track is to the edge, but it looks close. Another thing about running parallel to the table edge, and putting somewhat tight curves way out in the corners, instead of using that space for wider curves.
It tends to take away realism. Real railroads are seldom so symmetrical. There's a school of thought, which I agree with, that skewing the track, so that its not parallel, makes it look more real, and also opens up some interesting shapes for scenery.
I always shudder a bit when someone mentions "a two-foot aisle." To me that's not an aisle, its a narrow slot, for barely sliding sideways. Oh well, maybe you're skinny! All this is advice only, since you haven't actually glued anything down yet. However, I'm also a big fan of rule #1, so do what you like.😊

I've been invoking rule #1 myself recently. As far as I know from a lot of research, many photos, and seeing the actual station site, what I have done to the long retaining wall that bordered the station tracks, never really happened.
The model wall is about eight (real) feet long. That works out to 1280 scale feet, and due to space limitations, (don't we all love them! ) my model wall is probably well short of actual scale length. That's a heck of a lot of dull, blank, concrete wall. I livened it up considerably by pretending that the Union Pacific sold advertising space on their wall. I added a bunch of vintage signs along the wall.

Since I model two eras, the 1920s, and the 1950s, I can change the era by changing the signs, and the automobiles. Those two things, along with skirt hemlines, are keys that show what decade it is. Most of the structures I've modeled were built before 1920, and are still standing today. The signs have a thin sheet steel backing, and there are magnets behind the wall. The signs, along with the autos, some of the female figures, and of course, some of the trains themselves, need to be changed to fit the era. The main difference in rolling stock is the arrival of diesel locomotives, and streamlined passenger cars. The electric, & steam, locomotives & a lot of the freight cars, served both eras. 

Good Luck & have fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

The outer loops will be going through tunnels at the south ends. I hope to somewhat obscure the loop that way. 

It's n scale, and has 3 inches of space along the edges. I plan to build up the edges a bit to help keep any derailment on the table.

The wiring test passed, so I started soldering the joints this evening. Almost done with the Ohio side. It took me the better part of a day to put down the track with straight pins in order to test it.

I ran the train through the wye to be sure the AR module was working.

I stopped soldering joints when I burned my finger.😖

I'll pick up with soldering tomorrow evening when I get home from work.

I ended up ordering 12" 3/16" drill bits in order to run the feeders. It will be here tomorrow, so I also plan to start running permanent feeders. Right now, I just have temporary feeds.

It's coming together. My goal is to have the ground level track on both sides of the river done with trains running by Thanksgiving.

By the way, the soldering is a lot easier than I was anticipating. YouTube is my friend!


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Well, now Amazon tells me the drill bits won't be delivered until Wednesday, so I guess I'll just work on setting track on the WV side tonight.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I'm getting good at soldering leads to the P-11 turnout switches. Did Seven switches for the WV side this evening, and finished the rail joiners on the Ohio Side. The Ohio side is ready for power feeders... I'm hoping to start that Wednesday. After the Ohio side is wired for power, I'll start laying track on the WV side.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> The outer loops will be going through tunnels at the south ends. I hope to somewhat obscure the loop that way.
> 
> It's n scale, and has 3 inches of space along the edges. I plan to build up the edges a bit to help keep any derailment on the table.
> 
> ...




Jeff;

That all sounds good. Congratulations! 

On the soldering injury, Never reach up from below the table and grab the wrong end of a hot soldering iron, then have molten solder drip down the inside of your arm, and try standing up & bash your head into the pointed end of a bunch of Atlas track nails! It hurts a lot, says the voice of stupid experience! 😕

I was under the impression you were using Kato Unitrack. I guess not, since you're soldering rail joiners.

Keep having fun!

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Using Atlas Code 80 flex track (and a few sectional pieces like 90 degree crossings) and Peco Code 80 turnouts. The green colored section is up in a mountain, and will mostly be just a run around train with a couple spurs. The blue colored section is ground level and will include 4 tunnels to help obscure the fact that it's a giant oval on each side.

I was originally going to use Kato Unitrack, but decided against it in favor of the flex track.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

More progress being made! Yesterday evening, I was able to devote time to more soldering on the Western side of the layout. I now have 7 of the 10 power feeders in place and soldered to the track. I'm using black and red 22awg solid core (pre tinned) wires for the power feeders. I needed to order extra long drill bits because I have 2" of foam on top of wooden tables whose tops are about 1.25" thick, so the bits I already had weren't long enough. The extra long bits were delivered yesterday, so I was able to run the wires down through the table, and get them soldered to the outside edge of the track.

I used 3/32 bits that are 12" long, and drilled down between the ties on the outside edge of the track. Soldering was much simpler than I was anticipating. I've never done any soldering before this past few days when I have been soldering these feeder wires, and also have been soldering leads onto the turnout switches.

I checked for continuity at each feeder, just to be sure I did it correctly. The best part, is that you really have to look for them in order to see the feeders, so they are somewhat obscured, which I like. I did melt a few ties here and there, but the integrity of the rails are OK.

I hope to get the reverse loop and the remaining 3 power feeders wired tonight. Then over the weekend, I plan to run the power bus and make all the connections under the table, I have about a dozen or so terminal blocks ready for that task. My power feeders are somewhat clustered around turnouts, so the terminal strips will come in handy for sure. The longest run of 22awg wire will be about 18" from the bus.

For the power bus, I have both 14 and 18 gauge stranded wire on hand. Which would you use? I'm leaning toward 14awg, but I'm also thinking that may be over kill. I guess as long as the thicker wire connects to the terminal blocks OK, I should go ahead and use the thicker wire because it will have less resistance, correct?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Here's a visual of my N scale DCC layout for reference.

It's a fictitious area of the Ohio River, somewhere along the Ohio/West Virginia border. Both sets of grandparents were from that area, and I have fond memories of watching trains and barge traffic there as a kid.

Anyway, the green colored track is ground level. The river will be sunken. The blue track is elevated (in the mountains). Please don't get hung up on the geometry/symmetry... It's the way I like it.

I'm focusing on the West side first. All the ground level track has been laid with rail connections soldered. The only ones I didn't solder are the ones with the rubber isolation joiners... I didn't want to melt them. The plan is to get the ground level al set.. run rains for a while to be sure everything works, then start East side ground level (I've already laid the cork there, and have holes carved out for the PL10s to be buried under the turnouts. I also need to start focusing on laying the ground level bridges.

The red dots are power feeders for the main line. The blue dots are power feeders from an AR module. Blue lines indicate isolation gaps.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> More progress being made! Yesterday evening, I was able to devote time to more soldering on the Western side of the layout. I now have 7 of the 10 power feeders in place and soldered to the track. I'm using black and red 22awg solid core (pre tinned) wires for the power feeders. I needed to order extra long drill bits because I have 2" of foam on top of wooden tables whose tops are about 1.25" thick, so the bits I already had weren't long enough. The extra long bits were delivered yesterday, so I was able to run the wires down through the table, and get them soldered to the outside edge of the track.
> 
> I used 3/32 bits that are 12" long, and drilled down between the ties on the outside edge of the track. Soldering was much simpler than I was anticipating. I've never done any soldering before this past few days when I have been soldering these feeder wires, and also have been soldering leads onto the turnout switches.
> 
> ...



Jeff;

Yes, you're right, the bigger the wire, the less resistance. My favorite prototype, The Milwaukee Road, used two 4/0 contact wires on its catenary. Each one was solid copper about 3/4" thick. Of course they were not using DCC, but rather DC. 3000 volts at 3000 amps of DC! This would be just a bit high for your model railroad though ! 😄 
If you have enough 14ga. wire on hand, I'd go ahead and use that, though either 14 or 18 would work. 14ga. wire is not "overkill" it is commonly used for bus wires. On a relatively small layout, the wire gauge will be less important, since the bus wires won't be all that long.

Congrats on your soldering success. You can prevent tie melting by using heat sinks. Attach an alligator clip to the rail on either side of the place you are going to solder the feed wire. Or you can simply wet two paper towels with cold water and drape them across the track on either side of the point you will solder.
Those partially melted ties may have gotten the rails slightly out of gauge. Check this with an NMRA gauge when you can. If the rails need adjustment, you can heat the rail slightly with your soldering iron, and move it sideways by heating the plastic "spikes" that hold the rail to the ties.
If your feeder wires are not noticeable now, you can make them practically disappear by painting the rails. This also helps the track look more realistic.

Keep up the good work;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Thanks for the heads up on checking the gauge.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

So, I have one joint with a slight kink that needs fixed. Not too bad given that what I've laid so far is about 2 miles of track. It's on a curve, obviously.

I assume I'll need to remove the solder, or heat it back up to break the seam. Any advice for un-kinking a joint that has already been soldered?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

OK, so I did a bit of research on this and I believe this will be my plan of attack:

Background: I have a 12" radius curve with a soldered joint in the curve. Apparently, I either soldered the track with a kink in it, or a kink developed after I soldered it while bending the track to the curve. This is causing the leading edge of the front truck to derail occasionally. I checked the track with a NMRA gauge, and the track is in gauge, but I see a slight kink at the joint... which is soldered.

I'm going to try to apply perpendicular pressure to the track on either side of the joint while I heat up the solder to "release" the joint and see if I can "straighten out" the kink... Then re-solder the joint... let it cool completely and see how that works.

If that doesn't work, I'll end up cutting out the entire curve, and use a new piece of track for the curve such that the seams are on the straight sections leading into the curve.

Anybody have any other ideas?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> OK, so I did a bit of research on this and I believe this will be my plan of attack:
> 
> Background: I have a 12" radius curve with a soldered joint in the curve. Apparently, I either soldered the track with a kink in it, or a kink developed after I soldered it while bending the track to the curve. This is causing the leading edge of the front truck to derail occasionally. I checked the track with a NMRA gauge, and the track is in gauge, but I see a slight kink at the joint... which is soldered.
> 
> ...


Is your 12" radius curve made of flex track, or fixed sectional track that is not designed to bend? If its flex track, first you can avoid kinks by doing your soldering with the two pieces of flex track still straight. Then bend them to the desired shape.
To repair the kink you have obviously you need to unsolder the joint. A "solder sucker" tool, or solder absorbing metal braid can be handy for this.
If I understand what you're saying, you intend to pull the two rail ends that form the kink directly away from each other, tug-of-war style. 
When I need to disconnect soldered pieces of either flex, or sectional, track, I alternately heat one rail's joint and bend the track sections a bit in the direction that pulls those two rails away from each other. Then I do the same routine on the joint in the opposite rail. They need to be worked gradually until one of the rails comes completely free of its rail joiner.

Another possibility would be to use one of the metal track gauges made by Ribbon Rail. These metal gauges are made to fit a particular radius curve in a particular scale. Using a 12" radius gauge, you may be able to heat the rails just enough to form them into a smooth, kink free, curve around the gauge.

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I got it fixed!!!

Yes it is a curve where 2 pieces of flex track joined. I did solder it before laying the curve, but I must have somehow soldered a slight kink into it.

I ended up un-pinning the track (its held to the cork/foam with straight pins) and used some larger t-pins to hold the track so the joint would straighten up when I heated the solder back up.

Once the joint started to heat up, I could see the track straighten out. I repositioned the t-pins to get the joint perfectly straight, then added more flux and resoldered the joint.

I let it cool down, then pinned it all back into the curve and now the train sails right around the curve perfectly!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I got it fixed!!!
> 
> Yes it is a curve where 2 pieces of flex track joined. I did solder it before laying the curve, but I must have somehow soldered a slight kink into it.
> 
> ...


Jeff;

Good for you!  If you haven't already done so, when you can, check that area with an NMRA gauge and make sure the rails are set the right distance from each other. Not too loose & not too tight.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I was perplexed by a short in the isolated section. It was just fine before I started soldering joints. Turned out I used too much heat when I soldered pieces onto a turnout, and ended up fusing the wires that run current through the frog. So that created a short.

So I yanked out the buggered turnout and replaced it with one I had on hand for the elevated sections since I won't be ready to lay those for quite some time.

All good now. I have started laying track on the West Virginia side. Progress!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I was perplexed by a short in the isolated section. It was just fine before I started soldering joints. Turned out I used too much heat when I soldered pieces onto a turnout, and ended up fusing the wires that run current through the frog. So that created a short.
> 
> So I yanked out the buggered turnout and replaced it with one I had on hand for the elevated sections since I won't be ready to lay those for quite some time.
> 
> All good now. I have started laying track on the West Virginia side. Progress!


JeffHurl;

You might consider using heat sinks to protect your turnouts & ties.

Traction Fan


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

traction fan said:


> JeffHurl;
> 
> You might consider using heat sinks to protect your turnouts & ties.
> 
> Traction Fan


Yeah, lesson learned.

I spent the day today working on the layout. I have laid all the ground level track on the East side. Just need to add feeders and run the bus.

I made a couple bridge piers out of spare pieces of foam. I think they came out nice! I'll post pics when I set the first bridge.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Regarding soldering track/turnouts:

I find that Peco turnouts don't provide much length beyond the frog (perhaps all brands are made that way?). This makes for really tight space if you want to solder the flex track to the diverging rails. So, I found myself compromising, and only soldering the outside rail of the diverging track. It seems to work pretty well at preventing kinks, and keeps the heat away from the delicate strands of wire that run beneath the frog. I basically just attached the flex track to the diverging rail with rail joiners, and set the flex track in a straight line, eliminating any gap in the rails at the joint. Then soldered the outside rail. Let it cool, hit with a fine file to clean it up, then bend the curve as you lay the track. Pretty simple!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Regarding soldering track/turnouts:
> 
> I find that Peco turnouts don't provide much length beyond the frog (perhaps all brands are made that way?). This makes for really tight space if you want to solder the flex track to the diverging rails. So, I found myself compromising, and only soldering the outside rail of the diverging track. It seems to work pretty well at preventing kinks, and keeps the heat away from the delicate strands of wire that run beneath the frog. I basically just attached the flex track to the diverging rail with rail joiners, and set the flex track in a straight line, eliminating any gap in the rails at the joint. Then soldered the outside rail. Let it cool, hit with a fine file to clean it up, then bend the curve as you lay the track. Pretty simple!


Jeff;

Having a bit of straight track coming off a turnout is a very good idea. It may not look like it, but Peco turnouts actually have a curve built into their diverging route. If you started a curve right out of the diverging route of a turnout , you might create a reverse curve, depending on which way the curve went. A common scenario is to curve a siding back parallel to the main line, right off the turnout. This creates a reverse curve since the turnout's built-in curve is opposite the curve to get parallel to the main. There are arrangements where the straight route can be used, or the turnout fitted into a mainline curve, that eliminate the reverse curve.

Actually, many modelers don't solder any of the six rail joiners that connect a turnout in place. They also don't glue, or nail, turnouts in place The idea is to leave the turnout removable in case of problems developing. My old club had a policy to use plastic insulated joiners on all six joints connected to a turnout. They used older Shinohara turnouts which had metal frogs, and were power routing. They soldered feeders to each stock rail, and one to the frog. The frog feeder was connected to a micro-switch that changed the frog polarity for the route selected. (this was long before "Frog Juicers" existed)
The stock rail feeders were soldered to bus wires, along with all the other track. This effectively bypassed those insulated joiners, but it served two useful purposes. By simply cutting the feed wires, they could electrically take the turnout out of the troubleshooting picture without removing it. However, if the turnout was physically damaged beyond repair, the plastic insulated joiners could easily be cut with an X-acto knife, and the turnout removed, without damage to the tracks around it.

Peco, Micro engineering, and Atlas, all have short frog rails.
What I, and many others, do to insure good track power feed through a turnout, is to solder feed wires to each running rail, and one to the metal frog,
(if the turnout has one.)
I don't know which Peco turnout you're using. Insulfrogs have plastic frogs. Electrofrogs, and Unifrogs, have metal frogs that can be, (and in my opinion should be) powered.
By the way, if you happen to be using Electrofrogs, its important to use plastic insulating rail joiners on both the short frog rails, so there wouldn't be any soldering to those rails anyway.
This isolating of the Electrofrog is to protect against unknowingly building a short circuit into the turnout area. This short has come up many times here on the forum. The symptom is a short when the points are thrown for one route, and no short when the points are thrown for the other route.

Keep up the good work;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Makes sense. I'm using Insulfrogs. The frogs are plastic, but there are metal "wires" in there for power routing as points move. I accidentally fused the power routing wires...

The only reason I wanted to solder the joint where the flex track extends from the diverging route is because the diverging route goes into a 12" radius curve, and I needed to prevent a kink at the joint. A better solution would have been to have the diverging route go straight for a few inches before curving. But I think my "solder just the one rail" solution worked perfectly (sometimes it's OK to be lucky rather than good!)

Soldering the outside rail wasn't much of a problem because It was far enough away from the frog. but when I tried to solder the inside rail of the diverging route, I created a short in the intricate power routing lines inside the frog. Apparently, there are thin slivers of plastic in there to keep everything insulated. I either melted that thin plastic, or I let solder run down in there. Either way, the turnout is now toast.

Took me a while to figure out where the short came from, as I had tested all the wiring before soldering any joint, and all was good. So I knew the soldering caused the short... but figuring out where it was took a lot of probing with the multimeter checking continuity, and finding continuity where it shouldn't have been. It wasn't until I started testing for continuity with the points thrown in either direction I figured it out.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Here are some pics of the homemade bridge piers. The bigger bridge needs to sit a half inch lower than the Atlas girder bridges, so I used 2 pieces of foam... Sanded it down, then used clay sculpting tools to carve the stone.

My layout will have 2 of these bridge combos crossing a river with barge traffic.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Here are some pics of the homemade bridge piers. The bigger bridge needs to sit a half inch lower than the Atlas girder bridges, so I used 2 pieces of foam... Sanded it down, then used clay sculpting tools to carve the stone.
> 
> My layout will have 2 of these bridge combos crossing a river with barge traffic.
> View attachment 571047
> ...


Jeff;

Your bridge piers look good!  If, (and only if) you want to improve the bridge scene, here are a few suggestions.
The stones that make up your bridge piers are quite a bit too large for N-scale. Simply cutting more mortar lines in the foam, closer together, will get the stone blocks down to a more realistic size.

One thing I've had success with regarding mortar lines, is brushing some patching plaster over the finished, and painted, piers, or walls. I use a non-water-based paint, like Tamiya, which is alcohol-based. Or you could use slightly thinned acrylic house paint. Though it is water-based, once it dries overnight, its waterproof. The intent is to not have the water-based plaster remove, or mix into, any of your paint. The majority of the plaster can be brushed off, or taken off with a damp rag, leaving the plaster only in the cracks. This really makes the stonework pop out and get noticed. You can even weather the piers, including the plaster "mortar", with some dilute ink, or paint.

The large truss bridge has supporting "bridge shoes" under the ends. The Atlas bridges do not. All real bridges do have shoes, they are essential connect the bridge to the piers, and still allow for expansion & contraction of the steel. (One of the shoes has rollers that let the bridge move a tiny bit.) Bridge shoes are a nice detail that is seldom included on most model bridges. Having them on the big bridge, but not on the Atlas bridges looks a bit odd. There are commercial castings of bridge shoes available, if you want to add them to your Atlas bridges. Again, the scene looks good as is. These suggested improvements will just make it look even better.
You can see one of these bridge shoe castings under the left end of the deck girder bridge in photo #1. You will be able to see it better if you click on the photo caption "Combined outflow of Black and Green rivers." This will enlarge the photo, and turn you computer's cursor into a plus sign. If you move the cursor onto the bottom of the left end of the bridge, and click again, it will double enlarge the bridge shoe.

The second photo shows a mansion with a stone retaining wall in front of it. The wall is a group of commercial castings. I spray painted them grey, and brushed patching plaster over them. After wiping off most of the plaster, I was left with a nice mortar effect. After this photo was taken, I hand painted some of the stones different colors, added weathering, and "vines."

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Makes sense. I'm using Insulfrogs. The frogs are plastic, but there are metal "wires" in there for power routing as points move. I accidentally fused the power routing wires...
> 
> The only reason I wanted to solder the joint where the flex track extends from the diverging route is because the diverging route goes into a 12" radius curve, and I needed to prevent a kink at the joint. A better solution would have been to have the diverging route go straight for a few inches before curving. But I think my "solder just the one rail" solution worked perfectly (sometimes it's OK to be lucky rather than good!)
> 
> ...



Jeff;

Those tiny wires you saw inside the Peco plastic frog are jumpers between the closure rails, and the short rails coming out of the frog. These two jumpers, like the rails they connect, are of opposite polarity, so if you shorted the two jumpers to each other, that shorts the turnout.
When I scratchbuild my turnouts, I add larger versions of the same sort of jumpers in a cavity cut out of the 1/8" Luan I use for roadbed.
In the photo, this cavity has been filled in with the wood filler shown. You can see the two bare feeder wires that go to the stock rails, and the white wire that goes to the metal isolated frog of my turnouts.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Yep, I either melted the thin bits of plastic that keeps the jumpers isolated, or some molten solder dripped down in there.

Live and learn!

I will look into the bridge feet. Thanks for the advice!


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Wouldn't you know it....

Last night, I had a couple hours to devote to adding power feeders to the East side of the layout... Pulled the first piece of wire off the spool, and... it ended up being the last of the black wire, and didn't have another spool. I could have used a different color, but then that would have ruined my color coding scheme. So... I laid one of the bridges, and sat there and ran my locomotive back and forth over the bridge for an hour. 

I have more wire on the way. I guess I'm not very good at Just-in-time fulfillment. And now I'll have to paint the bridge piers in place rather than on the bench. I guess some times you just gotta do what you gotta do...


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Wouldn't you know it....
> 
> Last night, I had a couple hours to devote to adding power feeders to the East side of the layout... Pulled the first piece of wire off the spool, and... it ended up being the last of the black wire, and didn't have another spool. I could have used a different color, but then that would have ruined my color coding scheme. So... I laid one of the bridges, and sat there and ran my locomotive back and forth over the bridge for an hour.
> 
> I have more wire on the way. I guess I'm not very good at Just-in-time fulfillment. And now I'll have to paint the bridge piers in place rather than on the bench. I guess some times you just gotta do what you gotta do...


Jeff;

Been there. I ran out of both black, and red, in my limited supply of very small wire. (32ga.?) I have plenty of both those colors in larger wire, but these wires were for interior lights inside an N-scale structure. They needed to be very small, flexible, and insulated. Colored black & red wouldn't hurt either, since they should match the wires already in the structure. Magic markers to the rescue ! One color of mini wire I had plenty of was green. So I just used all green wire and then painted the outside of the green wire either black or red. Problem solved.

Model Railroading requires lots of patience. Unfortunately I don't have much of that ! 😄 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Ok, perhaps I didn't short the turnout after all. I discovered another short when running a loco around the track. The short appeared when I switched a turnout to go into a siding.

A little more research, and discovered that power routing turnouts will create a short in a siding if you run power feeders on all sides of the turnouts unless you gap the 2 frog rails.

Another lesson learned. This time, I didn't have a spare turnout, and I destroyed the turnout trying to unsolder it...

It pains me to throw money away, so I'm calling the cost of 2 turnouts "tuition" in the school of model railroading...

On the bright side, I now have all the ground level track laid (except one turnout that's on order) and all the feeders connected to the bus. AND, the AR module controlling the section between 2 loops is working perfectly.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Jeff we have all paid that "tuition" at one time or another. 

Magic.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

OK, I gapped the frog rails of 2 turnouts and have not had any shorts since. Hopefully, I have solved my short issue. As usual, Murphy has made his way into my build... I need a replacement turnout for the most recent one I destroyed, and with the holidays, shipping times will be FUBAR'd.

In the mean time, I will turn my focus to building a control panel for all the toggle switches that will operate the turnouts. It's getting tiresome to have to run around the outside of the layout to manually operate the points.

Which brings up a question/concern:

I have acquired a Peco PL35 (Capacitor Discharge Unit) to use for the turnouts. I know how to wire it, but when looking at the CDU, it looks as though the leads can't be too large. I'm guessing nothing larger than 20ga wire will fit into the tiny connections.

Do any of you know what size wire will connect to the PL35? I read in another forum that 18ga is too big. I have a supply of 22ga left over from the feeders I have installed. Since this CDU will sit between my power source, and the rest of the wiring "plate of spaghetti", is it OK to use such a small gauge wire to go from power source to the CDU and from the output of the CDU to terminal strips where the rest of the wiring will be larger gauge?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> OK, I gapped the frog rails of 2 turnouts and have not had any shorts since. Hopefully, I have solved my short issue. As usual, Murphy has made his way into my build... I need a replacement turnout for the most recent one I destroyed, and with the holidays, shipping times will be FUBAR'd.
> 
> In the mean time, I will turn my focus to building a control panel for all the toggle switches that will operate the turnouts. It's getting tiresome to have to run around the outside of the layout to manually operate the points.
> 
> ...



Jeff;

I'm not familiar with the connectors on a Peco PL-35. Can you solder a larger wire to the outside of the terminal than you can fit through it? If not, I would use a very short piece of small gauge wire, if you have to in order to fit in the CDU's terminals, and then connect larger wire for the rest of the wire run. 
Why?
A CDU puts out a lot of current in an instantaneous burst. Heavy current requires heavy wire, to let all that power get through the wire instantly. This is particularly true if you decide to use "route control." This is a way of wiring one electrical switch to operate several turnouts at the same time. Common applications for route control are "yard ladders"(The string of turnouts at the entrance to a yard.) and "crossovers." Its easier to get to any given yard track, if one button will automatically align all the turnouts necessary to reach that particular track simultaneously.
Twin coil switch machines, like those made by Peco, make route control wiring easy. Simple diodes are all that's needed.

There would be no logical reason to throw only one of the two turnouts that comprise a crossover. Either both need to be set for the parallel main routes, or both need to be set to the diverging route, so the train can cross over to the other track. The Peco switch machines don't easily lend themselves to using one switch machine, mechanically linked to both of the crossover's turnouts, as is often done with other types of switch machine. So you're likely to have one PL-10 switch machine mounted to the bottom of each of the crossover's turnouts. Wiring them to electrically both operate at once is a more practical solution.

The coils used in Peco machines have heavier gauge wire than those used by Atlas, Kato, & Bachmann. This means the Peco coils have somewhat less resistance. Route control will electrically put two, or more, of these coils in parallel, which further lowers the overall resistance. Wiring several of these coils in parallel can drop the overall resistance to the point that the CDU sees the wiring for a route as a near short circuit, and all the coils may not fire all the way over reliably. Double wires, or a larger wire, can let enough of the CDU's energy get through to do the job.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Thanks for that!

Here is how I was planning to wire the 17 turnouts. Please let me know if there is a better way.

I was going to run the negative wire out of the CDU as a bus that works it's way past each turnout. Each PL10 will have one side of each coil connected to the bus by a 22ga feeder.

Then from the positive output of the CDU, I will run a short feed to a terminal block. From the terminal block, run a bunch of short feeders to the center post on each toggle. Then from the outside posts on each toggle, run a feeder to each respective coil on the PL10s.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Thanks for that!
> 
> Here is how I was planning to wire the 17 turnouts. Please let me know if there is a better way.
> 
> ...



Jeff;

Your wiring plan sounds good. I would recommend the bus wires, and all the wires except those short segments going into the CDU terminals, be at least 18Ga. stranded wire. Your wiring proposal also doesn't include any route control. Do you have a yard with a string of turnouts at the entrance? If so, you might consider using one momentary toggle switch, or heavy-duty, doorbell type pushbutton for each yard track, rather than one toggle for each turnout in the yard. Route control uses a "diode matrix" to route the power from each toggle to the proper coils needed to set all the turnouts to reach a given track. As a simple example, lets say you have a three-track yard. The three turnouts are in a straight line with the diverging route of turnout 'A' connected to yard track #1. Likewise, turnout 'B' feeds yard track #2 through its diverging route, and yard track #3 from its main route.

Getting to track #1 is simple. Merely apply power to the coil that sets turnout 'A' to its diverging route. Which way turnout 'B' is set is irrelevant as far as getting to yard track 1.

Track #2 will require power applied to both the main route coil of turnout 'A' and the diverging route coil of turnout 'B'.

accessing track #3 will require power be applied to the main route coils of both turnouts 'A' and 'B'. 

At some point power will end up being applied to both coils of the same PL-10 machine, because the power can back feed through the wiring to the turnouts. Enter the diode! It only allows electricity to flow through it in one direction. By adding diodes to the wires of any toggle that is connected to more than one coil, (in this case the coils of turnout 'B') the current can't back feed. This is a lot harder to understand from only a verbal description. There are likely many diagrams of a diode matrix online. Also, in the extremely simple example I just outlined, there would be no real need for route control if you were only operating a three-track yard with only two turnouts in it. When you get into 5 or 6 tracks, or more, it takes a lot of head scratching and flipping a lot of toggles in order to set up a route. Crossovers are simple. Just wire the two coils that set their respective turnouts to the crossover route in parallel, also wire the two coils for the straight route to each other. One toggle selects either the crossover route or the straight route.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

No, my layout doesn't have any particular series of switches to be thrown in one fell swoop. Most of my turnouts are where the mainline diverges, or I back into a spur or small yard to drop off or pickup cars.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> No, my layout doesn't have any particular series of switches to be thrown in one fell swoop. Most of my turnouts are where the mainline diverges, or I back into a spur or small yard to drop off or pickup cars.



OK then. Just go with your wiring plan. It will work fine.  

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I made a lot of "behind the scenes" progress while I wait for a replacement turnout to arrive. I have every turnout, 22ga feeders connected to a 3-way terminal block. Negative will connect to a 14ga bus, plus a positive 18ga for each route that will be wired to the toggles on the switch panel I am making.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I made a lot of "behind the scenes" progress while I wait for a replacement turnout to arrive. I have every turnout, 22ga feeders connected to a 3-way terminal block. Negative will connect to a 14ga bus, plus a positive 18ga for each route that will be wired to the toggles on the switch panel I am making.


Jeff;

That sounds like a good plan. Keep up the good work.  
Do you plan to have indicator lights on your control panel that show which way each turnout is thrown? For the front side turnouts you can simply eyeball it, but you mentioned having to go around the table to manually throw the turnouts back there. If they're far enough away that you can't reach them, then it may be somewhat difficult to tell. Peco makes a set of switch contacts that can be used to power indicator lights, signals, metal frogs, Etc. The contacts slip right over the PL-10 machine, and sit between it, and the bottom of the actual turnout. You might want to check this out.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Train is running! I still need to set the bridges and trim the cork roadbed back a bit to even our the humps. The switchboard is working all but 2 of the turnouts... Need to trouble shoot those.

No derailments. This video is a quick lap and a half around and over a couple bridges over what will be the Ohio River.

Trains are running!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Train is running! I still need to set the bridges and trim the cork roadbed back a bit to even our the humps. The switchboard is working all but 2 of the turnouts... Need to trouble shoot those.
> 
> No derailments. This video is a quick lap and a half around and over a couple bridges over what will be the Ohio River.
> 
> Trains are running!


Jeff;

Congratulations!  

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I spent a lot of time yesterday up under the layout tidying up all the wiring. Now the dog can join me in the basement without me worrying about him getting tangled up in a rats nest of wires beneath the table, LOL!

I'm going to run trains for a while as is, before adding more foam layers to build the mountains. I ended up having a couple of shorts that only reared their heads when turnouts were thrown in certain ways. Knowing what I know now, I would have gapped all the frog rails on all of my turnouts. So I plan to run trains for a while as the layout is currently, so if I find any more obscure combinations of turnout throws that cause a short, I can address it before adding any more spaghetti to the plate of noodles under the table.

I went from someone saying something to the effect of "just 2 wires is all you need" to realizing that it was a just a bit more complicated than that.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> I spent a lot of time yesterday up under the layout tidying up all the wiring. Now the dog can join me in the basement without me worrying about him getting tangled up in a rats nest of wires beneath the table, LOL!
> 
> I'm going to run trains for a while as is, before adding more foam layers to build the mountains. I ended up having a couple of shorts that only reared their heads when turnouts were thrown in certain ways. Knowing what I know now, I would have gapped all the frog rails on all of my turnouts. So I plan to run trains for a while as the layout is currently, so if I find any more obscure combinations of turnout throws that cause a short, I can address it before adding any more spaghetti to the plate of noodles under the table.
> 
> I went from someone saying something to the effect of "just 2 wires is all you need" to realizing that it was a just a bit more complicated than that.


Jeff;

You are wise to run trains over all the track & turnouts and check for the bugs that seem to creep into any layout. 
On a normal, home-sized, layout, two wires would be all you need (FOR JUST RUNNING TRAINS) with DCC.
However, turnouts, structure lighting, signals, animation, & weather effects, each add their own wiring to the mix. As you can see in the photo, I have more than two wires too!  

Regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> I spent a lot of time yesterday up under the layout tidying up all the wiring. Now the dog can join me in the basement without me worrying about him getting tangled up in a rats nest of wires beneath the table, LOL!
> 
> I'm going to run trains for a while as is, before adding more foam layers to build the mountains. I ended up having a couple of shorts that only reared their heads when turnouts were thrown in certain ways. Knowing what I know now, I would have gapped all the frog rails on all of my turnouts. So I plan to run trains for a while as the layout is currently, so if I find any more obscure combinations of turnout throws that cause a short, I can address it before adding any more spaghetti to the plate of noodles under the table.
> 
> I went from someone saying something to the effect of "just 2 wires is all you need" to realizing that it was a just a bit more complicated than that.


I'm glad I finally cleaned up the wiring under my layout.










It USED to be a real mess, not all cleaned up like you see here......................


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Looking great! I'm certain mine will be at least as confusing.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I ran trains for a while last night. The only issue I have is a hesitation when going into a reverse loop. The loco stalls for a second, then starts back up. I was under the impression that the AR module would be so quick that the locomotive wouldn't even blink. BUt it does... for a good second or 2 then it starts right back up all on its own. Is there a setting somewhere that needs changed?

I'm using a Digitrax AR1 and the locomotive is a Kato SD70ACe which was DCC ready, and I installed a Digitrax decoder.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Jeff, have you played with the TTC screw that adjusts sensitivity? It should be close to immediate. I believe the solid state auto reversers are a bit faster, but it shouldn't pause. You might be throwing the breaker in the booster.

AR12up2.qxd (digitrax.com)

If you've set it too high it will trip the breaker in the booster because its not clearing the short by reversing the section.

If you've set it too low it will trip while the train is inside the loop because it thinks the train's normal power draw is a short.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I turned the TTC screw counter clockwise about a third of a turn. That seemed to do the trick until I noticed that occasionally the train would take a pause when entering the reversing section.

I think sometimes the phases are in sync when the loco enters and other times they are not so it's only when the AR module does it's thing.

But then that's just me guessing. I'll play with it some more when I can find time.

There is a siding in play there also, and part of me thinks I may have an issue with that since I have power routing turnouts. But the track doesn't shut down like it did when I had a known short that has since been fixed.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Still fiddling with the AR1 settings.

In the meantime, here are some pics with some of the upper level pieces in place.


































Pardon the make shift weights on the west side. I had just put down some Liquid Nails for Projects to secure the upper level.

Here are some pics, standing on the west side, looking East.

























Now at the North end looking southerly

















I made a lot of progress today. I ran out of adhesive, so I guess I will take the dog out and have some lunch before I figure out what else I can do to keep making progress.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Looking good!

Do you have tunnel access plans for cleaning? Removable top? accessed from below? Specifically the wye turnout might be something you want to access later.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Thelic said:


> Looking good!
> 
> Do you have tunnel access plans for cleaning? Removable top? accessed from below? Specifically the wye turnout might be something you want to access later.


Yes! There will be a removable tunnel access cover. I plan to cut a rectangle in the 1/2" top layer about 6" wider than tunnels so there will be a 3" overlap on each side.

The rectangle will have a couple stout trees that are anchored well into the removable section to act as handles.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Some slow progress this past week or so. Came down with a nasty cold and was too under the weather to do much.

Started feeling a little better today and finished putting down the track center line for the upper level. And started layering some different levels of terrain.



































I still need to trim out the east side, and also cut out the removable tunnel access hatch on the East side.

Progress!


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Well, a slight relapse with feeling bad has slowed me down again. But soon I will be laying down the cork roadbed for the elevated sections, and adding some layers of foam for the hills in the terrain.

Question for you more experienced builders:

At what point should I start shaping the foam? Before or after I lay track. I see pros and cons of each. If I lay track before I shape, then it's easier for me to see the big picture, but then I'll feel it necessary to apply painters tape to the track when shaping the foam to keep it free of debris. While if I shape before laying track, then cleanup is a lot simpler.

So what to do first? Lay track or shape foam? I guess I could lay the cork roadbed and then shape. At least the cleanup would still be rather simple, with no possibility of having little bits of debris in the tracks.

I know I'll want to use masking tape when I lay down plaster, plaster cloth, or paper mache, but I would like to defer that as long as possible, so I can be a "runner" in the meantime.... and shaping the foam will come a good few weeks before I'm ready to start the plaster side of things.

What say the hive?


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