# Layout Design



## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Hello all! Many of you were extremely helpful on my previous thread while I was building my train room. Thank you! 

The room is finally built and I am ready to begin designing my layout. I’m sort of a blank slate and looking for any proposals or ideas. Here is a picture of my room.

The two big “challenges” of the room are the entrance location, marked by the sliding barn door, and the three half walls that we built in to act as a viewing area for the rest of the basement. (The rest of the basement is finished but this is my space!)

I’m thinking an around the wall style, multi level layout. I’m modeling modern day Conrail so I’m trying to keep minimum 33in radius. 

Any ideas? I’m not opposed to a duck under or lift out. I was thinking a reverse loop on either side of the entrance and possibly adding a second level opposite the half wall (on the long 28ft run). 

Ideas? Thanks!


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

There's a gazillion layout plans that can be found through a Google search. Use parameters like room dimensions, layout type, operations type, scale (O, HO,N), etc. When you find some you like post then here for comments. If you want a multi-level plan, think about going point to point. Can "bridges" be mounted on the barn door?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

First thing you need to consider is what you want to DO when you run trains: do you want them to travel in a circle, or do you want them to more-or-less realistically travel *through* the layout from point to point? What do you want them to do while they're on the layout? Switch industries, serve passenger stations, or just travel through? Do you have any specific design elements (turntables, crossovers, etc.), industries, or scenery features that you want to include? How do you plan for trains to get from one level to the other -- a long sloped track or a helix? What scale? 

Consider WHAT this layout is going to be. Do you want a more or less realistic depiction of a real place; a fictional area that suggests a real place (perhaps with a specific design element, structure, or landscape feature) without being slavishly devoted to it, a fictional place that never-the-less is fairly true to what one might find (generic NE scenery and towns, for instance) without being based on a real place,, or just totally free form? The more like a real place it is, the more you can research what really IS there, and guide your ideas accordingly, but this introduces some pretty strict limitations on what you can do; while at the other end of the scale, you can include anything you want, but you have to come up with it all on your own.

Basically, what you need to do at this point is come up with a more or less firm plan for what you want to do and represent on your layout. Don't worry about where the tracks / tables are going just yet -- that comes after you get the big picture in place.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Thanks. Few things I should mention... HO scale and NO POINT TO POINT!

I’d rather not do a helix. I’ve scoured over tons of layout designs, track plans etc but as you know every room is shaped differently. I’d love to have a peninsula but I don’t think I have the width to maintain reasonable isleway. 

Here is the plan I’ve had in mind. I like around the wall design, mounted directly to studs, 1x4 open grid construction. Maybe someone can expand off this general design?

I want continuous running. I’m not a prototypical modeler but I would like to try and replicate certain scenes on the Boston and Albany division with a bit of “modeler’s license.”


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

OK, but you've still got the cart somewhat before the horse.

Yes, some variant of those big balloons at each end will be necessary if you want a loop, but it won't necessarily have to look like that. One loop could be on the lower level and one on the upper. When you start laying track (either actual track or just conceptually on paper or software) before you have your other design issues settled is to unnecessarily constrain yourself.

Where is that long sloped track going to be? Double track or single? How much vertical separation between levels, and what maximum grade... and therefore how much horizontal space do you need for it? At what point will it be high enough that other track elements could conceivably pass UNDER it?

It might turn out that a bridge over the aisle becomes a better option than the balloon... and so on. 

That's why you need to get your arms around the major pieces of your design before you start thinking about where the track should go.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Right. My loops don’t necessarily show track but if I don’t want a duck under or lift out, the tracks need to turn somewhere! And they need roughly 6ft loops to do it. 

I want double track, but if I have the return loops I’m fine with a dog bone style return loop where the train goes in one “westbound” on track 1, loops, and exits “eastbound” on track 2. We have this style now on my Dad’s new haven layout and I enjoy the operation of it. 

However, incorporating a lift out would give me a dedicated two track loop. I was also considering a two track “main” level and a single track loop “upper” level, with a big yard on main level and smaller yard on upper level to simulate a point to point but still have ability to let trains run in a loop.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Ideally I think I would like an around the wall, center peninsula, as described in model railroader, but I don’t think I have the width for it while maintaining 33in curves.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

lajrmdlr said:


> There's a gazillion layout plans that can be found through a Google search. Use parameters like room dimensions, layout type, operations type, scale (O, HO,N), etc. When you find some you like post then here for comments. If you want a multi-level plan, think about going point to point. Can "bridges" be mounted on the barn door?


The sliding barn door is on the outside of the room. No point to point... unless it has hidden return loops.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The latest basic main line looks great. Do consider
passing sidings at points around the circuit. They
make possible train A to run clockwise and train B
to go counter clockwise.

Don't even think of a 'duck under'.

But do consider a hinged 'bridge' to
span the entry to the layout. A lift out is
troublesome. A hinged span can be
easily wired and provide track cut off
so a loco doesn't accidentally run off
an open bridge.

Don


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Thanks for the input. After scketching a couple different plans, I think I have decided a lift out / swing out is the best option so I can keep a continuous 2 track main line along the wall. The swing out is as soon as you enter the room through the sliding barn door.

I added a peninsula in the middle, big enough for a full loop - I’m thinking of looping up to an upper level here, or some sort of elevation gain while the mainline runs along the edge of the isleway. 

My problem with a multi-level is I built half walls as sketched, and the half wall is 48in high... meaning a 2nd deck would be near impossible across that wall because it would have to span the half wall. I’ve attached my latest sketch:

Lou


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

That is an excellent shape for a train room, Lou.

The "fat" section of bench along the 28' wall will be a problem because it's 6' from the edge of the bench to the wall, so you're not going to be able to reach across it.

My first priority would be to always have a least 36" of walking/working space. Then, where ever possible, I would make the bench 36" deep. I've attached my idea for the bench work, although the stretch to corners A, B, C & D might also be a bit too far.

I wouldn't do multi-level (2nd deck) because you have lots of room to make elevation changes. I wouldn't do double track all the way around because it's not prototypical outside of areas that the railroad serves, but, as Don said, have passing sidings in various places around the circuit.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Well..... Conrail didn’t single track the B+A until the early 90s, so I could get away with a dedicated double track run. I’m throwing around the idea of the upper deck, if done, to be single track with passing sidings.

I like your design, but I think I still prefer the peninsula. I realize the 6ft reach is deep but I don’t intend to have to reach since the tracks would curve around the front of the peninsula. The 6ft depth gives me an option for a loop... I’m considering underground staging as well (especially if no 2nd deck).

Thank you for submitting your proposal... that’s exactly the kind of feedback I am looking for. You took the wider part of the room and naturally widened the layout on both sides... a concept I hadn’t thought of. 

I do know I want to simulate a mountainous, curvy, double track railroad with as little straight runs as possible.

I also agree with 3ft isle way. I had to squeeze down to 2 to make the peninsula.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Cool. Look forward to seeing how your room/layout develops.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Stumpy said:


> Cool. Look forward to seeing how your room/layout develops.


Stumpy,

I slept on your advice. I like the simplicity and open isleway. When we built my Fathers New Haven railroad, we sacrificed isleway and we’ve been paying for it ever since. 

It also dawned on me... nice big wide 2-3ft main level gives plenty of room to develope scenes, I can still “curve through the mountains” without the Benchwork curving. And, a nice wide main level would give perfect balance for a skinny single track upper level. Say 30in deep on the bottom and 12-18in deep on the upper? 

Boy, the possibilities are endless!


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Onlyelement14 said:


> Boy, the possibilities are endless!


Indeed! You can do all sorts of curving and winding on that 28" run. Like I said, great shape for a train room.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Back to the top, and narrowing down my proposals.

I’m modeling Conrail’s Boston line. Big engines, big railroading. As such, I’m heavily leaning toward a double deck layout. Here are my two double deck proposals. I’d like your input and guidance.

Option A: dogbone. On the left, the track would come out of the lower deck and begin the climb through the S curve, disappear and reappear along the top on the upper deck. The upper deck would continue across top wall to right, finally dipping back down on the return loop in the center, curving back under into a lower staging yard approx 6in lower, then dropping to the full lower level somewhere near the right side. No lift outs but minimum isle is 2ft. Sigh. 

Option B is a true around the wall with a lift out / hinge. However, there is no return loops, so I need to connect the upper and lower somewhere. I’m thinking along the back wall making one level rise on grade and the other level disappear on the opposite grade. Almost like a big X along the back wall, with only 1 part of the X visible. Or, somehow incorporating the two grades to cross each other. I’d love input on this. 

Speaking of grades, I’m looking in the neighborhood of 3.5%. I realize for you purists this seems like a lot, but I plan on ~20 car trains with 3 big diesels. SD80macs, C-40s, U boats. I have the power and I’m not afraid to use it. I should have zero trouble moving freight up a 3.5%. Plus, the Boston line did have a helper district in the early Conrail days based out of Becker, Mass which I could incorporate. 

I like the idea of the dog bone best, but hate the cramped isle in the middle. I love the idea of the true around the wall, for simplicity, but am trying to visualize how to scenic both grades cris-crossing one another. Plus, double deck means TWO lift outs!

All curves drawn are roughly 35in radius. I’m trying to stick as close to 36in as my bench work allows. I can reduce to 33in as needed. 

Thoughts please!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Onlyelement14 said:


> Speaking of grades, I’m looking in the neighborhood of 3.5%. I realize for you purists this seems like a lot, but I plan on ~20 car trains with 3 big diesels. SD80macs, C-40s, U boats. I have the power and I’m not afraid to use it. I should have zero trouble moving freight up a 3.5%. Plus, the Boston line did have a helper district in the early Conrail days based out of Becker, Mass which I could incorporate.
> 
> ....
> 
> All curves drawn are roughly 35in radius. I’m trying to stick as close to 36in as my bench work allows. I can reduce to 33in as needed.


It's not a purity thing at all. It's an operational thing. At 3.5%, a vertical easement at the top and bottom is a must. At the bottom, locos will dig in their noses; at the top, those long locos will have a tendency to do a wheelie and pop right off the track. Couplers will have a tendency to slide apart at both ends.

35" curves is going to be right at the edge of either layout area. I'd just do 33" (still plenty wide) throughout instead.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm old school paper and pencil as well. But let me suggest drawing the plan to scale but larger. That way you can accurately draw in what will actually fit with a compass and scale rule. Here is my rough draft track plan as an example.










Head over to Staples and buy a pad of 11x17 inch graph paper which has is scaled so that each square is 1/4-inch. In the case of my drawing, 1 inch = 2 feet. I made the track plan as big as I could and still fit on the 11x17 paper. Drawing to scale helps insure what you think will fit, really will, and also helps you scale out the bench-work framing that will support it.

I prefer to use old fashioned open grid bench-work and each section sized so it can be handled by no more than 2 people.

Here is a copy of the plan with two 2x8 foot open grid sections to support that part of the layout, drawn in red. I happen to have those already built, saved from a previous layout.


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## Onlyelement14 (Dec 12, 2018)

Just a little update. CONSTRUCTION HAS STARTED! I decided on the double dog bone, multi level. 2.5% grades and an elongated helix on the left side of the room. Here’s the first section built and hanging!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Before you lay the top, consider where you will be
running bus lines and cables. Drill holes in your
framing to hold these. So much easier when you
can stand to do it.

Don


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