# log hauling flats



## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

this is a prototype of my MM idea for log bunks that were made in company shops, the first photo shows the inspiration for this project the others are what I've built up . my question is would you put a end as verses the real car my logs would not be banded, if a end bunk of some sort were put on would it need to be on all cars as there will be 6 cars in two three unit sections or just the two ends ?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Is there a reason for not banding your logs? Are you planning to have some sort of unloading feature that requires the logs to remain apart? If not, I would simply glue the logs together, then you can easily remove them from the car as a single piece and you shouldn't have to worry about individual logs sliding back and forth on the flat.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Is there a reason for not banding your logs? Are you planning to have some sort of unloading feature that requires the logs to remain apart? If not, I would simply glue the logs together, then you can easily remove them from the car as a single piece and you shouldn't have to worry about individual logs sliding back and forth on the flat.


this was more of a prototype question as banding would add to the cost of shipping and was not a common practice in the late 50,s from what I've read ,as you said on the model they will be glued together.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

On the prototype the use of banding would quite likely have been as a safety issue for cars without bulkhead ends, on your layout it's all your choice ..


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

wvgca said:


> On the prototype the use of banding would quite likely have been as a safety issue for cars without bulkhead ends, on your layout it's all your choice ..


so would put bulkheads now would you do every car or just the two ends, not that I'm a rivet counter but like to come close to prototype feasibility.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

J.C. said:


> so would put bulkheads now would you do every car or just the two ends, not that I'm a rivet counter but like to come close to prototype feasibility.


Well, quite likely on the prototype, each car would have bulkheads, they would probably not always wind up in the same consist, or positions ..
If you intend to always run them as a 'set, the your RR may just do both ends of the set??
and in either case, it doesn't need to be done right away..


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

If you're hung up on 'doing it right', consider a few things that are greatly different between prototype and models... The real trains start and stop MUCH slower than your model will, and as such, there is likely to be very minimal shifting of loads. Also remember that the railroads won't put money into something unless absolutely necessary. There's no bulkheads on your original picture, probably because the railroad never found a need for them, and that can change depending on any number of factors including the average grade, current weather, or the type of tree. Something like this you simply cannot model 'wrong' because any way you want to make it look, there was probably a case where that particular setup was actually needed for a particular load.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

so the condenses is not to put bulkheads on them, I'm not that hung up on doing it right if I were I wouldn't have cars like this as they are only moving about 50 ft. on layout , in reality that's less than a mile , we have to make some concessions to space , but what we are trying to recreate in miniature is the real world , and that's were I'm at with this, the pretenses of my layout is a short line trying to stay in the black cutting costs where they can .


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Sorry, that wasn't intended to sound like a jab at you, I just wanted to point out that any answer here could be considered correct.

And if you're trying to mimic the prototype then I think you sort of answered your own question here... A short line, keeping down costs... To me those sound like exactly the reasons NOT to use any bulkheads at all.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Figure on an idler car behind the engine, and one in front of the caboose if you use them. I would suggest gondolas.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Sorry, that wasn't intended to sound like a jab at you, I just wanted to point out that any answer here could be considered correct.


didn't take it as a jab afraid my social skills are rather thin , what I meant buy the post was I would like to copy the real world as close as we can get, when I post things here I do look for others opinions some times I want reaffirmations others I'm looking for ideas, but all input is appreciated.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

I like how you modified a flatbed car to put the side guards for a log car!!! I am looking for log cars with the side guards, but finding road name choices other than JTLX, Feberal Paper Board, or Canadian National is non-existent. I may consider this so I can get some flatbed cars in a road name I want and add the side guards myself!

Regarding the log strap and bulkhead, I have seen log cars both with and without bulkheads and in both cases both with and without a strap around the logs, so I think it's a case of whatever you want to do.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

Overkast said:


> I like how you modified a flatbed car to put the side guards for a log car!!! I am looking for log cars with the side guards, but finding road name choices other than JTLX, Feberal Paper Board, or Canadian National is non-existent. I may consider this so I can get some flatbed cars in a road name I want and add the side guards myself!


there quit easy to build I used evergreen .100 H column's and a bit of imagination, but you could use almost any shape


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I have a few of that same flatcar. It's an old Tyco. Take off the plastic bed, replace metal weight with a full-width steel plate (1.25 x 1/16 is tough to find though!), then dropped a basswood bed down and put Kadee sprung metal trucks and couplers under it. That little extra bit of metal makes it feel a lot more solid and it rolls really smoothly on my test track. I dressed one up even further with metal stirrups and grab bars. Still need to do something with the brake wheel.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

yes its old Tyco as you said not a bad start but needs tweaking ,it was just a flat that was on my work bench what flats I will use are tichy kits as in photo. also I use tichy brake shaft kits like second photo there #303


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I've been using that same Tichy kit to refit some hoppers with a vertical brake shaft. I also have the handcar kit, which requires rock-steady hands, but makes some nice looking pieces. They also have a kit for wooden hoppers I've been eyeballing, but I already have enough kits waiting here, don't want to stack up too many more.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

don't know if you would be interested in these but for 100$ plus 15$ S&H not a bad price its eBay item #232246275080


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Interesting find, but I'd only use a couple of them anyway. It's funny that the seller can identify these as having Kadee couplers, but doesn't know that the hose portion is optional on them.


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## Shadow001 (Dec 15, 2016)

I was going to wait until next time I went up past there, but I'm not sure when that will be. Usually they have some logs sitting on them. This might still give you more idea's.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.2519...=200.8362&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.5287...4!1s_vNQ1Xtx8aYYHo9RJPIZ1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## Shadow001 (Dec 15, 2016)

I got up there yesterday.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

neat looks like there bunks are factory made, hauling mostly 40 ftrs. nice pics of the dart or what ever make the unloader is, I would assume they use a similar unit to load them.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

In the late 80's one of the Model RR magazines ran an article about converting passenger cars to log cars. I had several excess Athearn Passenger cars and I started converting some of them. When I glued wood scribed to the first to make the deck of the flat, it curled up, so on the rest I put brass angle on the edge as reinforcement. I made the log bunks out of Plastruct shapes and glued them to the deck.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

thedoc said:


> In the late 80's one of the Model RR magazines ran an article about converting passenger cars to log cars. I had several excess Athearn Passenger cars and I started converting some of them. When I glued wood scribed to the first to make the deck of the flat, it curled up, so on the rest I put brass angle on the edge as reinforcement. I made the log bunks out of Plastruct shapes and glued them to the deck.


my kinda guy :appl: any photos?


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

We did similar retros to some of our older flat car fleet at the onr. our version was to put more side stakes, in existing pockets. skinnier, but more of them. in the bush they would be loaded with an excavator with a clam. saw mill had very large loaders with clams to unload. all were open ended.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Nice video, lots of logs.

Magic


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## Shadow001 (Dec 15, 2016)

Magic said:


> Nice video, lots of logs.
> 
> Magic


I missed the engine by about 30 seconds. I just spotted the train out of the corner of my eye as I drove past that spot on hwy. I could not see it when I got to the log sort. I was pretty cool to see though. I had also never seen one of these logs trucks before.
Sorry I know not really on topic but had to show it.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

J.C. said:


> my kinda guy :appl: any photos?


No, I no longer have the cars and I didn't take photos. And I can't find the article.


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## Waddy (Dec 18, 2014)

time warp said:


> Figure on an idler car behind the engine, and one in front of the caboose if you use them. I would suggest gondolas.


I pick up some little gems of information all the time on this forum. I had no idea what an idler car is, so I Googled.

However, now I'm a little confused. Here is the gist of what i found; maybe you could elaborate a little and spell it out in layman's terms. If you don't mind.

Quote;
tdmidget; Actually I think idler is the wrong term. An idler as previously mentioned bears no part of the load but is required because of length9 ie: overhang from adjacent car. A carplaced to protec the crew is called " cover" on roads where I have taked to the crew about it. I understand some require as many as 3 cars between hazardous materials and the locomotive. It's my understanding that a shipper pays for an idler but not for "cover".

edblysart; As a cover car...the FRA requires at least one non hazardous car between the locomotive and any hazardous loaded car...five non hazardous cars if available or depending on what the hazardous car contains.

See UPs form 8620...placement in train chart.

"Cover" cars are referred to in form 8620 as buffer cars.
MRL gets away with one because gasoline is a combustible, not a flammable liquid, and with combustibles all you need is one cover car.

In fact, an empty combustible car is considered a cover car.

Shiftable loads, like pipe or machinery also need cover cars...for pipe in gons, if it is loaded below the top of the car, no cover is needed, loaded above the top, it becomes a shiftable and needs cover.
And, as the story pointed out, they often haul spot cars on the head end for the local to work, so they have cover there.
Idler or spacer cars are used to distribute weight...but the terms...idler, spacer, buffer or cover cars are often interchangeable.
The idea is to separate the locomotive and crew from the hazardous material by at least one car, in case of an accident.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/107745.aspx

So how do you determine when you need a cover/idler/buffer car and how many there should be?

Box cars were mentioned, as were "combustile" cars, and you mention gondolas. Could just any car be used?

And does it have to be an empty, or can it be filled with freight?

Comment if you feel like it; I ain't wanting to work you too hard. But this is interesting.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

Im not sure what the dictionary or rule book states it but an easy example is: A 40 foot flat car hauling 60 foot pipes will have and empty flat car before and after it. these are idlers. the couplers are also tied together to ensure they are not un coupled until the load is removed. in just about any example you can think of they are used for protection of load.
Thats the laymen version.

Ive only ever seen empties, flats and boxes used as idlers.

As for the rest of your questions, the rules were put in place to force common sense. The railroad industry really is still operating in the past. it is slowly being dragged along into this century. If you let them they would haul acid in a leaky gondola car. they made the rules sound fancy but really its just to make them look smart. if you were to look at all the rules one by one they all would boil down to " Dont do this Stupid" Its harsh to say, but after working on the railroad for as long as i did, its true.


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