# Tortoise --> Switch Track Machine.. Special Notes..



## ED-RRR

The Tortoise switch track machine can be used in *“Any”* model train scale layout..

I presently have (x27) Tortoise Switch Track Machines..
The Circuitron instructions are not that easy to follow.. 
http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6000ins.pdf

The Tortoise switch track machine may seem to be costly ($'s):
- It has many extra added features for [AC], [DC] & [DCC] track operations..
- Can operate switch tracks in a realistic motion..

It is a very good switch track machine..
*But* there are special notes that you should know about..








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## ED-RRR

*"Warning" --> Faulty Tortoise Switch Machines..*

If you break the "Front Seal" that covers the (x5) mounting screws --> *"Warranty Is Void"..*









I presently have (x27) Tortoise Switch Track Machines..
I opened all (x27) Tortoise switch track machines for *"Advanced Modifications"..*

*Wiper Arm:*
There are (x2) copper wiper plates mounted to the wiper arm..
The wiper arm has (x4) small plastic pins locating and holding the (x2) wiper plates..
These (x4) small plastic pins are melted to secure the (x2) wiper plates.. 

*Warning: (#1)*
Of my (x27) Tortoise switch track machines, 1/3 (x9) had a broken off wiper plate/plates..
The internal wiper plate/plates had "Broken" off from the "Wiper Arm"..
The internal switch contacts will "Not" have any electrical contacts..









*Required *Tortoise switch track machine --> Testing Procedure..
Lightly shake the "Tortoise Switch Machine..
If you hear any "Internal Sound" (Rattle Sound)..
--> The internal wiper plate/plates have "Broken" off from the "Wiper Arm"..

*Optional* Tortoise switch track machine --> Testing Procedure..
You may "Not" hear an internal rattle sound, but wiper plate/plates may be only partially mounted..
*Must be a V-DC power supply (12.V-DC Maximum).. *
Use a 9.V-DC battery and have the motor change directions using connections #1 & #8.. 
Use a volt meter and test the (x2) single pole, double throw (1P-2T) switches..









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## Cycleops

All well and good but you can get cheaper products which do the same job and save $s. Try Tam Valley Depot http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/microsingletservodecoder.html
If you already have some servos you save more. I can't boast of having 27 of their units but what I have are excellent.


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## ED-RRR

*"Tam Valley Depot".. Switch Machine..*



Cycleops said:


> All well and good but you can get cheaper products which do the same job and save $s.
> Try Tam Valley Depot http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/microsingletservodecoder.html
> If you already have some servos you save more.
> I can't boast of having 27 of their units but what I have are excellent.


Thanks* [Cycleops]* for posting this reply..
This allows me to do comparisons between the (x2) switch machines..
As the years past, there will be *"Many" *changes to products..

On Amazon.com 
The "Tortoise Switch Machine" --> $20.00/23.00 Each..

Tam Valley Depot 
"Micro Singlet Servo Decoder and Micro Servo Machine Combo".. $30.95 Each..

----------------------------

*"Tortoise Switch Machine".. $20.00/23.00 Each..*
- Everything combined into (x1) unit.. 
- Has (x2) separate single pole, double throw (1P-2T) switches.. 
- (x1) switch can send track power to the switch track "Frog"..
- (x1) switch can send V-DC power for directional LED's..









----------------------------

*"Tam Valley Depot".. $30.95 Each..*
- Micro Singlet Servo Decoder and Micro Servo Machine Combo.. 
- Has (x3) individual separate units.. 
- Has "NO" auxiliary switch to power the switch track "Frog"..
- Requires a "Custom" circuit board for the (x2) directional LED's..









----------------------------

*[Cycleops]*
Please post if the new updated information from "Tam Valley Depot" is* "Incorrect"..*

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## ED-RRR

*"Required" --> Power Supply..*

*The electric motor used is 12.V-DC Motor..
*
*Warning:*
- Must only use "Direct Current" (DC) --> *(Not AC)..*
- "Maximum" voltage is 12.V-DC..

*Circuit Board:*
- As per circuit board information..
- Connection #1 = (-) motor connection..
- Connection #8 = (+) motor connection..









*How the Tortoise Switch Machine --> Functions..*
- V-DC power supply is sent to the motor (#1 & #8)..
- Reversing the V-DC power supply to the motor "Reverses" motor direction (#1 & #8)..

*Special Notes:*
- The V-DC power supply to the motor is always *"ON"..*
- The motor is kept in a *"Constant Stall"* position receiving a constant V-DC power supply..
- This keeps a constant "Pressure" onto the "Throw Wire"..
- Once the switch machine looses the constant V-DC power supply, the "Throw Wire" will move into a "Relaxed Position".. 
- Once "All" of the switch machines are "Powered" at the "Same Time", this will draw a much higher Amperage (Current) at the "Same Time"..

*Power Supply Required: *
- *"Maximum" *power supply is *12.V-DC*
- The switch machines will *"Always"* be in a "*Constant Stall" *position, drawing Amps (Current)..
- Switch machines will draw different Amps (Current) due to the V-DC power supply..
- There are too may variables required to calculate required "Minimum Amps" (Current) per switch machine.. 
- I would roughly calculate that each switch machine will draw 1/8 Amp (125 Mili-Ampere) per switch machine, in the "Constant Stall" position..
- The (# of switch machines) X (125 Mili-Ampere) = "Minimum Amps" (Current) required.. 
- Switch machines (x8) = 1.0 Amp "Minimum"..
- Switch machines (x12) = 1.5 Amp "Minimum"..
- Switch machines (x16) = 2.0 Amp "Minimum"..

*A Constant Power Supply: *
- The "Throw Wire" is always "Applying" a constant "Pressure" to the "Switch Track".. 
- Also notice how the "Throw Wire" is also "Bent", to keep a constant "Pressure" to the "Switch Track" direction..









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## D&J Railroad

I don't really think that the feature of "operates DC or DCC or AC track" is of any relevance. Sorta like saying, "it will work with or without pictures of trains hanging on your wall".


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## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> *[Cycleops]*
> Please post if the new updated information from "Tam Valley Depot" is* "Incorrect"..*
> 
> ......


Not incorrect, exactly, in that there is a combination of items listed by Tam Valley that costs what you indicate, although it does have what they call a snap switch for powering frogs, signals, and what have you.

Your comparison is overly simplistic, in that the tortoise does NOT have the same functionality as the combination you suggest, specificaly that the Tam Valley set up includes the cost of the LED's, cabling, and activation switch, in a plug and play arrangement.

If running multiple turnouts, there are different servo and controller options (the Octo III), which, using the quantity discounts available, amortize the cost down to about $17 per turnout, all parts included.

And everything in the tortoise ISN'T in the same place. The actuation switch and LED's would still be in a separate location. The control circuitry and motivational unit are combined on the Tortoise, it is true, but at the cost of a unit that is significantly larger than either of the two separate pieces of the TVD arrangement.

I have used both, and even if there were a significant price premium for the TVD items, I would still recommend them over Tortoises as a more elegant, and no les effective solution.


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## fcwilt

And just to offer a alternate point of view...

I tested both the TAM Valley solutions and the Tortoise - and decided on the Tortoise.


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## redman88

Have you put your tortoise switch to an amp meter to see what they draw. The document you link to says the draw 15-16ma at stall.


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## ED-RRR

*Minimum Required Amperage..*



redman88 said:


> Have you put your tortoise switch to an amp meter to see what they draw..
> The document you link to says the draw 15-16ma at stall..


I would use their information for reference only..



ED-RRR said:


> - The V-DC power supply to the motor is always "ON"..
> - The motor is kept in a "Constant Stall" position receiving a constant V-DC power supply..
> - This keeps a constant "Pressure" onto the "Throw Wire"..


I have (x27) Tortoise switch machines..
(15—16 mA at stall parked position)..
(0.016) x (27) = .43 Amps

This is what I am concerned about that the Tortoise switch machine instructions do *"Not" *say..
- Once the switch machine loses the constant V-DC power supply, the "Throw Wire" will move into a "Relaxed Position".. 
- Though it is in the "Relaxed Position", the "Throw Wire" is still putting the motor under a start-up *"Load"..*
- Once "All" of the switch machines are "Powered" at the "Same Time", this will draw a much higher Amperage (Current) at the *"Same Time"..*

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/tortoise.htm
- 4 mA. during operation (Motor Running)..
- 15—16 mA. at stall (Parked Position)..

What is "*Not"* known is the actual required *"Current" *(Amps) when the motor *"Starts"* to turn..
There are many variables that will affect the "Minimum" required "Start Up" amperage.. 
- Location of fulcrum on switch machine (leverage).. 
- A correctly built throw arm wire (stress on the fulcrum and switch track).. 
- [N] scale OR [O] scale switch track (weight)..

I cannot see my (x27) electric motors at 12.V-DC, *"All" *start up at the* “Same Time” *with only *.50 Amps* (500 mA)..
Watts = (Amps) x (volts)
Watts = (.5) x (12) --> Only 6 Watts Total








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## redman88

*Tortoise --&gt; Switch Track Machine.. Special Notes..*

Easy to test but stall is the highest amp reading you will see.


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## ED-RRR

*Minimum Required Amperage..*



redman88 said:


> Easy to test but stall is the highest amp reading you will see. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gwFE-NkzR-k


*Sorry:*
I am not about to check the *"Amperage" *of each individual Tortoise switch machine (x27) on my [HO] layout..
There is *"No" *way that my total measured *"Amperage" *when all (x27) Tortoise switch machines start up at the *"Same Time"..* will be the *"Same"* for others..

*Special Notes:*
I know how to use a multi-meter (Thanks)..
As I have previously stated that there are way too many *"Variables" *that will effect the *"Start Up"* motor *"Amperage".. *
No (x2) switch machines will have the *"Same Amperage"..*
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## redman88

Why would you have to test them individually? Since you already have them set to run from a single power supply test and find out what the full draw is. Unless your turn outs are sticking you are not putting a heavy load on the tortoises. Nor should you be using that same power supply for the inner six contacts for ACC switching.


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## ED-RRR

*Power Supply..*

The electric motor used in a Tortoise switch machine is a *12.V-DC* Motor *"Maximum"..
*
*Warning: (#1)*
- Must only use "Direct Current" (V-DC) --> (Not V-AC)..
- "Maximum" voltage input is 12.V-DC..

*Special Notes:*
When the Tortoise switch machine operates at 12.V-DC:
- The gear box and motor makes an unwanted sound (a little noisy)..
- The switch track moves very fast (not prototype)..

*Solution:*
- Use around 8.V-DC power supply to the Tortoise switch machines..

*Warning: (#2)*
- A power supply "Under" 7.V-DC will *"Not"* be enough *"Stall Voltage"* (in parked position) for the switch machine..
*
Power Supply:*
- Use a 9.V-DC "Adapter" to power the Tortoise switch machines..
- Ebay sells 9.V-DC / 2.Amp adapters quite cheap..








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## ED-RRR

*Reply..*



redman88 said:


> Why would you have to test them individually?
> Since you already have them set to run from a single power supply test and find out what the full draw is.
> Unless your turn outs are sticking you are not putting a heavy load on the tortoises.
> Nor should you be using that same power supply for the inner six contacts for ACC switching.


*Sorry,* but what are actually trying to say ??__



redman88 said:


> Nor should you be using that same power supply for the inner six contacts for ACC switching.


*Sorry,* but where did you find this information ??__
*Sorry,* but what is ACC switching ??__








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## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> *Sorry,* but what are actually trying to say ??__


What are you confused by? I pointed out how you can find the answer to your concern about the start up current draw. 





> *Sorry,* but where did you find this information ??__
> 
> *Sorry,* but what is ACC switching ??__


Okay I should have written AUX not ACC auxiliary instead of accessory. As that would have better matched the documentation 

http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf


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## ED-RRR

*Other Power Supplies - Train Transformer / Bi-Polar Power Supply / Regulated Power Su*

*Other Power Supplies - Train Transformer / Bi-Polar Power Supply / Regulated Power Supply*

The Tortoise switch machine has been around for many years..
I searched the internet for past history of the Tortoise switch machine..

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/212003/2322360.aspx
Just the other day I attempted to use an old *MRC Tech 2 Railmaster transformer* to power my tortoises, 
but the 60 cycle buzz from the tortoises at stall was *unbearable. *
*"Circuitron Support" *suggested I use a 12V DC output desktop switching power supply. 
Since I'll eventually be operating 30+ tortoises each with a bi-polar LED for panel turnout indication they 
also recommended the power supply be *1 amp. minimum.*

Oops, forgot to mention that I want to use the "Bi-Polar" power supply set-up for my tortoises, 
*"Circuitron Support"* suggestion was two 12VDC output *1amp* desktop switching power supplies.









*Plug-in "Wall Wart" Power Adapters..* --> "Not Walmart"..
http://www.azatrax.com/powersupply.html
Filtered and regulated DC output, voltage stays the same no matter how the load changes..
Enough current capacity to power detectors, controllers and over 30 pairs of alternately flashing LEDs 
or 10 pairs of grain-of-wheat incandescent bulbs from a single supply..
Power-on indicator light.
Self-resetting over-current protection.
Wire leads, 5 ft. (150 cm) length.
Slim design, fits nicely on a power strip.
PS906 $9.50
9 volts, 650mA max 
Using two DC power supplies simplifies wiring slow motion switch machines (Tortoise).. 








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## ED-RRR

*Operating Volts and Amps..*

*As Previously Stated:*
The Tortoise switch machine has been around for many years..
I searched the internet for past history of the Tortoise switch machine..

*(#1)*
Many individuals take advantage of the very low *"Amperage"* required to power LED's..
But this is actually a catch 22 problem..
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/212003/2322360.aspx
Same with Tortoises. They draw about 15ma each when stalled, less when running. 
That's why you can wire LEDs in series with the motor power for indicators, 
15ma is below the max rating for nearly every LED (at least the common ones anyone would normally be using) 
so the LED is protected without using a resistor. 
Each Tortoise draws 15ma. 10 of them is 150ma. 









Any power supply larger than 150ma (really should add another 25% 
so that the power supply is never loaded to 100% constantly) 
will work. 200ma. 500ma. 10 amps. 
Again, when the power supply is significantly higher in current capacity than the intended load, 
you should break it out into multiple circuits with individual fuses rated closer to the intended load.

*(#2)*
I found an individual that states that his (x30) Tortoise switch machines are operating at 12.V-DC @ 500mA (.50 Amps)..
(0.016 mA) x (30) = .48 Amps
This individual is using the power supply at *"Maximum"* usage..
There is "No" reserve power supply (Amps)..
This unit will get very *"Hot" *and will *"Not"* be fully functional *(Heat Resistance)..*

*(#3)*
I have found individuals *"Only"* using 6.V-DC power supply to *"Quieten"* and "*Slow Down"* the Tortoise switch machine..
I have done *"Actual Testing"* and found that a 6.V-DC power supply will *"Not" *solidly secure that switch track position..

*(#4)*
Many individuals also find that a 9.V-DC power supply is *"Ideal" *to use..
This will *"Quiet" *and *"Slow Down"* the Tortoise switch machine *(Prototype)*..
Most of them use the (DP-DT) switches..









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## redman88

What is the catch 22 you don't state it and it's not with in the first few posts of the t link you posted.


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## wvgca

ED-RRR , if your intent is to use the switch machines with one pair of LED's as shown in your diagram [series] , for worst case [highest draw], with all 27 switch machines set the same, you would need a pair of 1 to 1.25A rated supplies, and they will be a bit slower [with a 9V supply] with the leds in series as there is the forward voltage drop across the led .. should give fairly realistic slow speed actuation ..


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## ED-RRR

*To Be Continued..*



wvgca said:


> ED-RRR , if your intent is to use the switch machines with........


Hi [wvgca]..:smilie_daumenpos:..

I was still in the process of doing my next posting.. *(LED's)..*
Please* "Verify"* if the --> Front Panel LED's and "Track Signals" is --> *"Correct".. *
At times this "Forum" can be a little "Difficult"..
- Thanks –..:smilie_daumenpos:..

*To Be Continued:*
- Powering the switch track *"Frog"..*
- Special required *“Mounting”* instructions for the Tortoise Switch Machine..
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## ED-RRR

*Front Panel LED's and "Track Signals"..*

*(#1)*
Some individuals take advantage of the 12.V-DC @ 15mA to also power the *"Front Panel LED's"..*
The problem here is that the V-DC will remain the *"Same" *but the *"Amps"* will vary..
- 4mA during operation..
- 15—16mA at stall..
This will cause some different *"Brightness"* to the *"Front Panel LED's"..
*








*(#2)*
Here is a sample using 9.V-DC @ a higher amperage to power the *"Front Panel LED's"..*
Using a DP-DT front panel switch..
The problem here is that the V-DC will remain the *"Same"* but the *"Amps"* will vary..
- Approximately a 12mA difference..
This will cause some different *"Brightness"* to the *"Front Panel LED's"..*









*LED's:*
The (x2) different LED's use different V-DC that determines *"Brightness".. *
- *"Red" 5.MM* (round) LED 1.8V-DC/2.3V-DC --> Typical 2.0V-DC @ 20mA
- *"Green" 5.MM *(round) LED 3.2V-DC/3.4V-DC --> Typical 3.3V-DC @ 20mA

*(#3)*
Using a separate *"Power Supply"* to power the *"Front Panel LED's"..*
This will insure a constant *"Amperage"* to keep the LED's at the same *"Brightness"..*
To have (x2) different "*Resistors"* to keep the LED's at the same *"Brightness"..*









*Required Resistors: (X2)*
http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz

*Power Supply: 12.V-DC*
*- "Red" 5.MM *(round) LED 2.0V-DC @ 20mA (R1) = 560 Ohms - 1/2 Watt 
*- "Green" 5.MM* (round) LED 3.3V-DC @ 20mA (R2) = 470 Ohms - 1/2 Watt 

*Power Supply: 9.V-DC*
*- "Red" 5.MM *(round) LED 2.0V-DC @ 20mA (R1) = 390 Ohms - 1/2 Watt 
*- "Green" 5.MM* (round) LED 3.3V-DC @ 20mA (R2) = 330 Ohms - 1/4 Watt 
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## redman88

You can add the resistors in line as well. It is not a problem


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## ED-RRR

*Powered Switch Track --> "Frog"..*

"Switch Tracks" may "Not" have track "Power Supply" when crossing through..
This is the "Most" electrical troublesome location on a model train layout.. 

If the "Switch Track Contacts" are not electrically connected, the "Frog" will "Not" be "Powered"..
This will cause an "Electrical Short"..
This applies to both [V-DC] and [DCC] track operations..
When using [DCC] this is more "Criticle" to ensure that the decoder receives a pure "Digital" signal.. 









*Special Notes: (#1)*
There are also "Different" types of switch track "Frogs"..
I highly recommend reading these (x2) "Threads" for detailed required information..

New Shinohara turnout causing a short
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=74042

turnouts? 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=71810

*Special Notes: (#2)*
In time due to "Track Oxidization" there will be poor "Electrical Contact"..
It is also very difficult to clean the switch track electrical contacts..

*Assembly Instructions:*
Since there are "Different" types of switch track "Frogs", Only the basic instructions will be shown..
The switch machine SP-DT "Switch" will determine the required track "Power Supply"..









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## ED-RRR

*Mounting --> Tortoise Switch Machine (Solid Base)..*

*Special Notes: (#1)*
The Tortoise switch machine has a lot of *"Torque"* when going into the *"Stall Voltage" *(in parked position)..
A solid secure mounting base is "Required" to insure that the switch machine will "Not" move.. 
A secure mounted position for the "Tortoise Switch Machine" will "Insure" correct switch track operations..

*(#1)*
Using a solid base will insure a (100%) secure mounting base.. 
- Homosote
- Plywood









*Special Notes: (#2)*
Homosote is a "Solid Base" having "Sound Deadening" features..

*Special Notes: (#3)*
When the "Tortoise Switch Machine" is "Mounted" into a solid "Plywood Base", the motor sound will "Vibrate" into the wood..
I suggest adding a 1/8" sound cushion between the switch machine and the plywood base..
Use 1/8" double face "Foam" tape available in rolls..









*Warning:*
You can "Not" add the 1/8" sound cushion to an existing "Mounted" switch machine..
The "Throw Wire" be too "Short"..
*- But -*
You can go to Circuitron directly and buy "New" throw wires..
I myself contacted Circuitron directly and purchased more throw wires.. (Very Cheap $'s)..
E-Mail: [email protected]
- Tortoise Switch Machine
- Part No. 800-6000
- The 3.5” x .025” Dia. Spring Wire 
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## ED-RRR

*Mounting --> Tortoise Switch Machine (Thick Foam)..*

*Special Notes: (#1)*
My [HO] scale layout has a full solid base using "Homosote"..
Lately many model train layouts are being built using "Thick Foam"..
The problem I see is that the model train manufactures never thought of having a "Thick Foam" table top base..
This includes all "Switch Track Machines"..
That is why the "Throw Wire" is so short..









*Special Notes: (#2)*
The Tortoise switch machine has a lot of "Torque" when in the "Stall Voltage" (in parked position)..
A solid secure mounting base is "Required" to insure that the switch machine will "Not" move.. 
A secure mounted position for the "Tortoise Switch Machine" will "Insure" correct switch track operations..

*Special Notes: (#3)*
When mounting a Tortoise Switch Machine into "Thick Foam" is "Not" an easy "Procedure"..
Requires a lot of custom applications..
Must also be allowed to easily "Remove" the Tortoise Switch Machine for any future "Repairs"..

*====================*

*Assembly Procedures: *
Since I do "Not" have a "Thick Foam Base", It is "Only" information that I have found on the internet..
- requiring a solid "Mounting Base" attached to the switch machine..
- Cut out required "Clearance" through hole..
- A required "Lower Level" window frame to secure the "Mounting Base" of the switch machine.. 

*Caution: *
This procedure is only "Roughly" mounting the switch machine in "Required" location "Before" mounting the track..
Take note of the (x2) track locations.. 
The throw arm "Wire" may "Not" function correctly..









*Special Notes: (#4)*
"Switch Track Machines" are "Usually" mounted "After" the track is "Mounted"..
This insures to have fully functional switch machines..

========================

*My "Optional" Procedures: *
I feel that this is a much more "Accurate" procedure to use..
This also allows for the switch machines to be mounted "After" the track has been "Positioned"..
Using 1/4" "Hardboard" to secure the switch machines..

*(#1)*
Place "All" of the track to the required wanted "Locations"..
Do "Not" permanently "Mount" the track..
Outline "All" the track locations..









*(#2)*
The Tortoise switch machine comes with instructions..
There is an included "Drilling Template" in "Paper"..
Will "Require" the "Plastic" drilling template from Circuitron (#800-6190) for this procedure..
You can "Make" your own "Thin Plastic Template", but take note that your master template is from a printer..("Paper Template")..

*Special Notes:*
The "Paper" drilling template has a "Small" hole location for a "Correctly Bent" throw wire..
The "Plastic" drilling template has a "Large" hole location for an "In-Correctly Bent" throw wire..
An "In-Correctly Bent" throw wire will "Increase Drag" (More Friction) that will increase the "Minimum" amperage to operate.. 









*(#3)*
Modify the Tortoise drilling template for better "Mounting" location "Accuracy"..
Require (x3) added lines..
Each manufacture will have a different "Measured Distance"..
Measure the "Total Distance" as per picture and find the "Center Line" dimension..
Carefully scribe (x1) "Center" horizontal 180' line.. (Picture = Red Line)..
Carefully scribe (x1) "Left" vertical 90' line.. (Picture = Pink Line).. 
Carefully scribe (x1) "Right" vertical 90' line.. (Picture = Blue Line).. 









*(#4)*
*Warning:*
This Tortoise "Drilling Template" is only for the required "Drilled" hole locations (x5)..
It will "Not" show "Actual" Tortoise switch machine "Mounting" base locations.. (2” x 2”)..

*Template #1:*
Modify the Tortoise drilling template for the "Actual Sizes" required for a "Clearance Hole" through the "Foam" layout base..
Add an "Extra" 1/2" (.50") to the bottom of the drilling template..
Glue on a "Longer" (Length) of "Layer Cardboard" (Cereal Box)..
After the glue has dried, layout the "Added" 1/2" (.50") "Length" location..
Carefully cut off the new required "Length"..
Carefully trim the (x2) "Width" locations..









*Template #2:*
Require a mounting template (window frame) for a solid base support..
For material use a "Layer Cardboard" (Cereal Box).. 
As per picture, it is 1/2" (.50") longer and wider than Template #1.. 
Tape down Template #1 on top of Template #2 in the center, allowing for 1/4" (.25") gap per side..
Drill the (x2) "Red Holes" 3/64" (.047") Dia. through Template #2..
Insure that Template #1 is "Over" the (x2) "Red Hole" locations..
Outline all (x4) sides with a “Sharpy” (fine point) marker..









*Hardware Required:*
- (x1) Drilling Template from Circuitron (#800-6190)..
- (x1) Layer Cardboard (Cereal Box)..
- (x1) Layer Cardboard (Cereal Box).. 
- (x1) Sharpy (Fine Point) Marker..
- (x2) 3/64" (.047") Dia. Drills.. 

*Next:*
Template #1 and Template #2 --> Layout / Assembly Instructions..
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## redman88

How can you give advise on something you have not done? Please stick to posting about what you have actually done. Not what you think should be done based on looking at pictures other people have taken.


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## ED-RRR

*Reply:*



redman88 said:


> How can you give advise on something you have not done? Please stick to posting about what you have actually done.
> Not what you think should be done based on looking at pictures other people have taken.


*(#1)*
I was a manufacturing engineer for the F-15 jet fighter.. 

*(#2)*
I have not *"Yet" *completed posting this *"Project"..*

*(#3) [redman88]*
Have you found any *"Faults / Errors" *in what has been *"Posted" ?? *
......


----------



## redman88

*Tortoise --&gt; Switch Track Machine.. Special Notes..*

As I just stated you are not creating this post from your own actual work. Just reformatting other people's work with out doing any physical testing of your own. While throwing out questions and problems you see. Mock it up and post actual results not just suppositions.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Amateur Reply:*



redman88 said:


> As I just stated you are not creating this post from your own actual work.
> Just reformatting other people's work with out doing any physical testing of your own.
> While throwing out questions and problems you see.
> Mock it up and post actual results not just suppositions.





redman88 said:


> *Just reformatting other people's work*


Are you here to *"Help"* others in this in this *"Forum"*
*-OR-*
Are you more interested *"Attacking"* me ??

*Fact:*
My *"Optional" *Procedures: 
are *My* own personnel designs..
......


----------



## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> Are you here to *"Help"* others in this in this *"Forum"*
> 
> *-OR-*
> 
> Are you more interested *"Attacking"* me ??
> 
> 
> 
> *Fact:*
> 
> My *"Optional" *Procedures:
> 
> are *My* own personnel designs..
> 
> ......



Actually Accuracy up till you posted this I hadn't even read your "Optional" procedures.  But now that I have from my reading of the application notes on the tortoise switch machine available from their website I don't see the need for your "Optional" procedure.


----------



## redman88

okay to answer you question about what i have problem with let me start here




ED-RRR said:


> *"Advanced Modifications"..*


*Care to say how and why you made modifications?*


ED-RRR said:


> *Optional* Tortoise switch track machine --> Testing Procedure..
> You may "Not" hear an internal rattle sound, but wiper plate/plates may be only partially mounted..
> *Must be a V-DC power supply (12.V-DC Maximum).. *
> Use a 9.V-DC battery and have the motor change directions using connections #1 & #8..
> Use a volt meter and test the (x2) single pole, double throw (1P-2T) switches..
> 
> 
> ......


*Actually don't have a problem with this testing, should be done before any other work done on or with the switches.*



ED-RRR said:


> On Amazon.com
> The "Tortoise Switch Machine" --> $20.00/23.00 Each..
> ......


*You should advocate price shopping that's what i did before i bought my 12 pack of the switches*
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Circuitron-800-6000-The-Tortoise-TM-Switch-Machi-p/cir-800-6000.htm



ED-RRR said:


> - Switch machines will draw different Amps (Current) due to the V-DC power supply..


*if they are drawing different amps it would be due to differences in motors not the power supply*


ED-RRR said:


> - There are too may variables required to calculate required "Minimum Amps" (Current) per switch machine..
> - I would roughly calculate that each switch machine will draw 1/8 Amp (125 Mili-Ampere) per switch machine, in the "Constant Stall" position..
> - The (# of switch machines) X (125 Mili-Ampere) = "Minimum Amps" (Current) required..
> - Switch machines (x8) = 1.0 Amp "Minimum"..
> - Switch machines (x12) = 1.5 Amp "Minimum"..
> - Switch machines (x16) = 2.0 Amp "Minimum"..
> ......


*As i stated before Circuitron in the product information pdf http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf
states this *


http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf said:


> 1. DC WITH CROSS WIRED DPDT SWITCHES: This system uses the most basic power
> source, a simple DC supply of not more than 12 volts. Lesser voltages will make the
> TORTOISE run slower (and quieter). The power supply need not be filtered. Each
> TORTOISE will draw 15-16 ma. at stall, so 30 switch machines can be powered by a
> single 9 or 12 volt, 500 ma. wall plug adapter (available from Radio Shack). Any type of
> DPDT switch (toggle, slide, etc.) can be used to switch the polarity. This system will have
> two wires running from the control panel to each TORTOISE. See Diagram 1 below.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Reply..*

Hi [redman88]..:smilie_daumenpos:

I have (x27) Tortoise switch machines..
How many Tortoise switch machines do you have ??
- And -
How are they mounted ??

========================================



redman88 said:


> Care to say how and why you made modifications?


I am not quite finished yet.
T.B.A.



redman88 said:


> You should advocate price shopping that's what i did before i bought my 12 pack of the switches


There are many places to find Tortoise switch machines..
This is only a reference pricing ($'s)..
Sorry, but I have more important things to do instead of shopping around..



redman88 said:


> if they are drawing different amps it would be due to differences in motors not the power supply





redman88 said:


> As i stated before Circuitron in the product information pdf http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf
> states this


Yes this is true, but have you also taken in effect the other variables..
Each Tortoise will draw 15-16 mA at stall, so 30 switch machines can be powered by a
single 9 or 12 volt, 500 mA..
If you have 30 switch machines with "Only" a 500ma (.50 Amp),
the power supply will be operating at (100%) and will eventually *"Burn Out" *the power supply..
Is it not better to have a *"Reserve" *amperage power supply..
The hotter the power supply gets, the less effecient it will become..

The "Throw" wire in a "Relaxed" position.. (Correct Set Up).. 
The "Throw" wire in a "Bent" position.. (Bent Throw wire)..
The "Bent" wire will place a *"Load"* onto the switch machine *"Fulcrum"..*









The Tortoise switch machine instructions.. 
http://www.circuitron.com/index_file...00-6000ins.pdf
Only applies to mounting from the bottom using a "Solid" base..
That is why the "Throw Wire" is Short.. 
Circuitron has *"No"* available instructions when using thick *"Foam"..*








......


----------



## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> Hi [redman88]..:smilie_daumenpos:
> 
> I have (x27) Tortoise switch machines..
> How many Tortoise switch machines do you have ??
> - And -
> How are they mounted ??
> 
> ========================================


I have 12 and none of them are mounted as i haven't gotten that far with my layout. 



ED-RRR said:


> I am not quite finished yet.
> T.B.A.





ED-RRR said:


> I presently have (x27) Tortoise Switch Track Machines..
> I opened all (x27) Tortoise switch track machines for *"Advanced Modifications"..*
> 
> ......


*So you have 27 opened up tortoises on your work bench with advanced modifications that aren't complete?*




ED-RRR said:


> There are many places to find Tortoise switch machines..
> This is only a reference pricing ($'s)..
> Sorry, but I have more important things to do instead of shopping around..


*sorry can't answer this right now as it would come off as an attack on you.*



ED-RRR said:


> Yes this is true, but have you also taken in effect the other variables..
> Each Tortoise will draw 15-16 mA at stall, so 30 switch machines can be powered by a
> single 9 or 12 volt, 500 mA..
> If you have 30 switch machines with "Only" a 500ma (.50 Amp),
> the power supply will be operating at (100%) and will eventually *"Burn Out" *the power supply..
> Is it not better to have a *"Reserve" *amperage power supply..
> The hotter the power supply gets, the less effecient it will become..


*yes which is why it is smart to take a little bit of time to test your setup as you intend to have it to get a good idea on the end result. testing one switch with all the accessories at the work bench will give a good idea for all the rest. *



ED-RRR said:


> The Tortoise switch machine instructions..
> http://www.circuitron.com/index_file...00-6000ins.pdf
> Only applies to mounting from the bottom using a "Solid" base..
> That is why the "Throw Wire" is Short..
> Circuitron has *"No"* available instructions when using thick *"Foam"..*
> 
> View attachment 174018
> 
> ......


*they do google search found it for me*
http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Page724.htm


----------



## ED-RRR

*Never Ending..*



redman88 said:


> I have 12 and none of them are mounted as i haven't gotten that far with my layout.


*None Mounted !!*.... Tortoise switch machines..
*No experience *when it comes to *Tortoise switch machines..*__



redman88 said:


> So you have 27 opened up tortoises on your work bench with advanced modifications that aren't complete?


What has this got to do with Tortoise switch machines mounted on *"Foam" ??*



redman88 said:


> they do google search found it for me
> http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Page724.htm


http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Page724.htm
How do I mount a TORTOISE™ on very thick (2” - 4”) subroadbeds?
The TORTOISE™ design was optimized for about a *1" total subroadbed and roadbed combination *such as one would find with 1/2" plywood and 1/4-1/2" cork or homasote roadbed. 
 It will work fine with greater and lesser thicknesses, but you have to be aware of certain issues that are raised.
Here is another possibility, never tested.

*Here is another possibility, never tested. * 
Drill down from your throwbar hole location from the topside of the layout.

*LooooooK: --> Never Tested..*

====================

Could you *"Please"* get off my back....
You are *wasting* my time and beginners in this *"Thread".. *
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Optional Project --> (Thick Foam)..*

Sorry that I got ahead of myself..

I have *"Now"* supplied a *"Completed" *project picture..
- Required through hole through foam .. (Switch Machine Clearance)..
- Required window support frame.. (For A Solid Base).. 
- Required hardboard.. (Solid Mounting Base)..








......


----------



## redman88

never tested just like every you have been posting, or you would have been including your own pictures and results.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Layout Instructions --> (Thick Foam)..*

Important Update:
I do not have a Circuitron (#800-6190) drilling template..
I made my own custom drilling template for a Homosote solid base for perfect alignment..
The Circuitron instructions state to only drill (x4) pilot/starter holes 3/32” (.094").. (Not Through)..
The (x4) mounting holes in the template *"Might"* be *3/32” (.094") Dia.*

*Procedure: (#1)*
Insert (x2) "Equal Spacers" between the throw tracks.. (Yellow Locations).. 
Carefully slide *Template #1* (Circuitron) "Under" the switch track..
Insure that the (x2) marked lines (pink & blue) are centered between the (x2) long throw switch ties..
Insure that the (x1) marked line (red) is centered over the "Throw" wire position..
Carefully insert the "Required" (x2) locating drills through the (x2) marked holes *(red)*
to secure the Template #1 (Circuitron) "Under" the switch track.. 
Push the (x2) drills into the foam (1") minimum because the will become "Datum Holes"..
Outline Template #1 with a Sharpy marker (fine point).. 
--> This is the required *"Through Hole"* for the Tortoise switch machine..
Remove the (x2) drills, Template #1 and the (x2) spacers..









*Procedure: (#2)*
Carefully slide *Template #2 *(Layer Card) "Under" the switch track..
Carefully insert the "Required" (x2) locating drills through the (x2) marked holes *(red)*
to secure the Template #2 "Under" the switch track.. 
Push (x2) drills into the foam (1/2") minimum into the *(x2 Red) **"Datum Holes"..*
This will insure correct positioning..
Outline Template #2 with a Sharpy marker (fine point).. 
--> This is the required *"Mounting Support Frame" *for the Tortoise switch machine..
Remove the (x2) drills and Template #2..









*Special Notes:*
If there is a *"Frog"* powered wire connected to the switch track, mark out required through hole location.. 
This also applies to any other wires connected to the switch track..
......


----------



## redman88

I still don't understand the need for the extra length of the drilling template. how ever the procedure you show looks like a good one that i will keep in mind for when i do start to mount my Tortoise switches.


----------



## Magic

*The easest way to mount a Tortoise.*

Or you can do all the hard work on the workbench and mount them like this. No drilling guide or other fancy doodads needed. 
Three small holes were for something else. One 1/2 inch hole to mount.








You can see the pen marks for lining things up. 
Only one screw mounts the machine and it doesn't need to be perfect.








The way I do it.

Center the throw bar of the turnout and mark the center hole with a small piece of wire.

Remove the turnout and drill a 3/8" hole through the bench work and up to two inches of foam board.

Replace the turnout and center the throw bar again.

Wrap a piece of tape around a piece of 0.032 music wire and drop it through the draw bar center hole.
Remove the slide adjustment from the Tortoise and go under the layout. 
Hold the Tortoise with the movable lever centered and the mount up to the wire hanging down. 
Line it all up with the wire keeping in mind the direction of the track above and mark the edges of the mount and the center of the 1/2" hole with a marker pen. 
Drill a started hole for the mounting screw and screw it in a couple of times to get good threads started.

Hold the Tortoise up to the bench work and line it up with the marks and install the screw, can do this with your fingers and sung it down but not too tight. 

Install the slide adjustment and put the wire through it and using a small hammer or something tap the mount to fine tune the position of the Tortoise. 
When everything is lined up tighten the mounting screw and bend the wire and hook it up to the lever and set the screw. 
Cut off the excess wire with a pair of cutters, make sure it is cut off short enough to clear your trains. 

With the 1/2" hole in the mount you have plenty of wiggle room to line everything up perfectly with no binding of the wire.
Use the slide adjustment thingie to adjust the amount of throw on the wire.

This sounds complicated but in fact it's very easy and you can mount a Tortoise in less time than it took me to write all this up. 
Well almost, I'm a very poor typest?. Spelling isn't all that great either.
All the small holes and tiny screws are done on the work bench and lining things up is easy. 
The only precision needed is in drilling the hole through the bench work. This needs to be right no matter how you mount Tortoise machines. 

K&S Precision Metals 0.032 music wire. #5501 4 pieces of 12 inch wire. You'll need an 0.032" drill to drill out the hole in the Tortoise throw lever. 
Magic


----------



## redman88

More good info to ponder thanks


----------



## ED-RRR

*A.O.K. --> But*

Hi [Magic].._ :smilie_daumenpos:_



Magic said:


> Or you can do all the hard work on the workbench and mount them like this.
> No drilling guide or other fancy doodads needed.
> Three small holes were for something else.
> One 1/2 inch hole to mount.


This is an excellent mounting modification..
You are using a plywood base and cork roadbed..









*- But -*
Many individuals are now *"Only"* using 2." thick "Foam" top base..
The Tortoise switch machine "Throw Wire" can "Not" be this long..
Besides a *"Foam Base"* will *"Not"* secure a Tortoise switch machine..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Cutting Instructions --> (Thick Foam)..*

*Hardware Required:*
- 6" scale "Steel Ruler"..
- Cutter Knife (Snape-Off-Knife)..







*Procedure: (#1)*
Totally cut out and remove the "Inner Box" (Red Box).. 

*Procedure: (#2)*
Only trace out the outer window frame with "Cutter Knife" and a 6" scale "Steel Ruler" cutting depth guide of 5/16" (.312") "Minimum Depth"..
It is better to be a little "Larger" then "Smaller"..

*Procedure: (#3)*
Mark out the 1/4" (.25") window frame "Depth"..
Extend the cutting blade all the way out..
Cut out and remove the window frame..









*Special Notes:*
If there is a "Frog" powered wire connected to the switch track, "Drill" through required through hole location.. 
This also applies to any other wires connected to the switch track..

*Warning:*
Only complete (x1) location *(100%) *complete, before continuing on to the next switch track location..
This will insure that *"Everything"* is *"Correct"..*
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Cutting Instructions --> (Solid Mounting Base)..*

*Warning:*
Only complete (x1) location *(100%) *complete, before continuing on to the next switch track location..
This will insure that *"Everything"* is *"Correct"..*

*Hardware Required:*
- Perforated hardboard 1/4" (.25") thick..
- Perforated hardboard (Peg Board) "Without" the "Holes..

*Procedure: (#1)*
Lay *"Template #2"* onto the Perforated hardboard sheet..
Mark out the required layout lines (sizes)..

*Procedure: (#2)*
Cut the perforated hardboard size..
It is better to be a little "Smaller" then "Larger"..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Assembly Instructions --> (Solid Mounting Base)..*

*Warning:*
Only complete (x1) location *(100%) *complete, before continuing on to the next switch track location..
This will insure that *"Everything"* is *"Correct"..*

*Procedure: (#1)*
Insert the hardboard into the window frame..
Insure that the hardboard is *"Not" *above the top face..
Slowly do any required 1/4" (.25") height, trimming with a "Cutter Knife..
If the hardboard into the window frame is "Below" the top face, insure that it is "Flat" and "Level"..

*Procedure: (#2)*
Insure that the hardboard is "Not" pressed into the window frame..
It is better to have side "Small Gaps"..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Drilling Instructions 'A' --> (Solid Mounting Base)..*

*Warning:*
Only complete (x1) location *(100%) *complete, before continuing on to the next switch track location..
This will insure that *"Everything"* is *"Correct"..*

*Procedure: (#1)*
Insert the hardboard into the window frame.. 
The hardboard base must *"Not" *move..
If required, insert "Same Size" opposite side small "Shims".. (layer card)..

*Procedure: (#2)*
Insert (x2) "Equal Spacers" between the throw tracks.. (Yellow Locations).. 
Carefully slide Template #1 (Circuitron) "Under" the switch track..
Insure that the (x2) marked lines (pink & blue) are centered between the (x2) long throw switch ties..
Insure that the (x1) marked line (red) is centered over the "Throw" wire position..
Using masking tape to *"Secure" *Template #1 into place..

*Procedure: (#3)*
Using the "Same" hole size Dia. (Throw Wire Location), drill a starter "Pilot Hole" location, into the "Solid Mounting Base".. 

*Procedure: (#4)*
Using the "Same" hole size Dia. (x4) "Mounting Locations" *(Red Circles),* drill (x4) starter "Pilot Holes" location, into the "Solid Mounting Base".. 








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Drilling Holes 'B' --> (Solid Mounting Base)..*

*Warning:*
Only complete (x1) location *(100%) * complete, before continuing on to the next switch track location..
This will insure that *"Everything"* is *"Correct"..*

*Special Notes: (#1)*
The Tortoise switch machine instructions:.
Drill pilot holes for #4 wood or sheet metal screws at the four
points indicated (3/32” or #42 drill bit). 
3/32" = (0.094") Dia.
This is "Not" the correct drill size..

*Special Notes: (#2)*
As per the screw standards..
#4 wood screw into soft wood is 3/64" = (0.047") Dia.

*Procedure: (#1) *
Drill the (x4) (Red Holes) 3/64" = (0.047") Dia.

*Procedure: (#2)*
Drill the (x1) (Blue Hole) 5/16" = (0.312) Dia.








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Switch Machine --> "Throw Wire"*

*Special Notes:*
The Tortoise switch machine "Throw Wire" is a very critical component to the switch machine..
If it is incorrectly mounted, the switching operation will "Not" function smoothly..









*Warning:*
The Tortoise switch machine "Drilling Template" is designed for the correct required measurements..
This also applies to the hardboard with the (x5) drilled holes in this project..

*Tortoise "Throw Wire" Instructions..*
The 3.5” x .025” spring wire provided with the TORTOISE is suitable for layouts having a total roadbed/baseboard thickness of
one inch or less. 
1. Prepare the spring wire by gripping it with pliers 1/8” from one end and make a sharp 75-80 degree (nearly right angle) bend.
At a point 3/4” away from the initial bend, make an additional 15 degree bend in line with the first. 
Figure 1 is full size and may be used as a guide.

*Special Notes:*
No wonder many individuals do "Not" follow this difficult procedure..
I used a custom made fixture to bend my (x27) throw wires..
This was to insure that "All" throw wires were the "Same"..

*Warning:*
Instruction Sheet States = Full Scale Drawing (Fig.1)
- "NOT" To Accurate Scale
- "NOT" Printed To Scale
- "NOT" Accurately Measured 
--> Has Mounting Screw pushing down on angled face (Not Flat) causing the spring wire to push in.. 









*Special Notes:*
This is my engineering drawing..
I suggest using a "White" painted flat wooden board..
With a sharp pencil layout the required locations and lines..
Use very small finish nails at the required "Datum" locations.. 
This will insure that "All" throw wires will be the "Same".. 









*Tools Used:*
- Square Nose (Short)
- Needle Nose (Short)









*Special Notes:*
Insure that the "Fulcrum" is positioned correctly..
Note the "Tapered Hole" for the throw wire..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Tortoise Switch Machine --> Assembly..*

*Hardware Required:*
- Require (x4) #4 "Round Head" screws..
- #4 x 3/8" length will be perfect for this project.. 









*Procedure: (#1) *
Pre thread the switch machine "Throw Arm"..
Using a #1 Phillips screwdriver, slowly screw down the supplied screw into throw arm hole..
Take note that the screw is *"Very"* tight to screw in..
Do Not Push Down Any Harder Than Required On The Throw Arm..
Remove the screw from the throw arm..









*Procedure: (#2) *
Mount the switch machine to the base..
Try to have "All" (x4) mounting screws located "Equally" spaced..









*Procedure: (#3) *
Correctly slide the "Fulcrum" into the switch machine..
Insert the "Throw Wire" through the "Fulcrum"..
Tighten down the "Throw Wire" with the screw..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Warning --> Tortoise Switch Machine "Fulcrum Location"..*

The (x2) Tortoise switch machine switches (SP-DT) have very *small gaps* between the (x2) electrical contacts..









*Special Note:*
If the "Fulcrum" is set "Low" below the center line location, this will place more "Pre-Load" onto the switch track locations..

*Warning:*
With this much "Pre-Load" onto the switch track locations, this will cause electrical "Shortages" when using the supplied (SP-DT) switches..
While the switch machine is moving, the electrical contacts will "Change", while the switch track has "Not" yet moved..









*Special Notes:*
There is a special "Optional" modification to solve this problem..
Enlarge the *"Gap"..*
http://www.pmrr.org/Articles/index38.htm









*Special Note:*
In (90%) of situations, this is the best location for the "Fulcrum"..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Tortoise Switch Machine --> Assembly..*

*Procedure:*
The "Throw" wire "Must" be positioned in the "Center Position"..
Use a 9.V-DC battery and have the motor change directions using connections #1 & #8.. 
Slowly jog the electric motor till the "Throw" wire is in the "Center Position"..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Tortoise Switch Machine --> Mounting..*

*Warning:*
Only complete (x1) location *(100%) * complete, before continuing on to the next switch track location..
This will insure that *"Everything"* is *"Correct"..*

*Procedure: (#1)*
Insert the completed unit into the "Correct Location"..
The "Throw" wire "Must" be positioned in the "Center Position"..









*Procedure: (#2)*
Place the switch track over the switch machine having the "Throw Wire" feed through the required location..
Insure that the switch track is in the "Correct" location.. (Layout Lines)..
Insure that the throw switch tracks are "Centrally Located".. (x2 Yellow Lines)..
Insure that the switch track is in a "Relaxed" position, "Not" touching any of the "Side Walls"..
If required, cut away any touching foam material.. (Window Frame)..









*Procedure: (#3)*
To now permanently "Mount" the hardboard base..
Use (100%) "Wood Glue" and fill in "All" the gaps..
Allow a "Minimum" of (x24) hours for the glue to dry, before "Touching" the switch track..








*Warning:*
The switch machine "Throw Wire" has a lot of "Torque"..
Do "Not" apply voltage to the switch machine "Before" it is "Permanently Mounted"..
The switch track will "Move"..

*Special Notes:*
All switch tracks are in the "Correct Locations"..
The switch machine "Throw Wire" is in the "Center Location"..
Use (100%) "Wood Glue" and glue the switch track to the hardboard base..
This will prevent any movement..
Allow a "Minimum" of (x24) hours for the glue to dry, before "Touching" the switch tracks..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Read Me --> Tortoise Switch Machines Into Foam...*

*Read Me --> Tortoise Switch Machines Into Foam.. *

*Special Notes: (#1)*
There are some individuals that "Mount" the Tortoise Switch Machine, "Before" laying down "Any" track.. 
This requires "Actual" switch track "Dimensions" from the "Manufacture"..
This also requires very "Accurate" layout "Track Center Lines" on the layout top face.. (Center Line, Radius, Arc Locations)..
It will "Only" take (x1) "Incorrect" layout line, to totally shift "All" the other track into the "Wrong" location..
This is "Not" an "Accurate" required procedure to mount the Tortoise switch machine..









*Special Notes: (#2)*
My "Custom" procedure mounts the Tortoise Switch Machine, "After" laying down "All" of the track and track switches.. 
All of these procedures will "Insure" that the Tortoise switch machines:
- Will be mounted "More" accurately..
- Will operate much "Smoother"..







......


----------



## fcwilt

Your posts would be easier to read if you eased up on the use of quotes.

There are rules about when to use them which you seem to be sidestepping.


----------



## ED-RRR

*You Again !!*



fcwilt said:


> Your posts would be easier to read if you eased up on the use of quotes.


It is a well known *"Fact"* that individuals do *"Not"* like to read *"Instructions"..*
So you alone do *"Not"* like my *"Quotes"..*
--> Get Stuffed..__



fcwilt said:


> There are rules about when to use them which you seem to be sidestepping.


There are *"NO"* rules how I can *"Post" *my *"Instructions".. *
--> Get Stuffed..__

*Fact: [fcwilt]*
Are you here to* "Help Others" *in this *"Thread"* or is your *"Goal", * in this *"Thread"*, to only *"Attack Me" *??__

Another *"Fine" *example of present day (2016) *"Model Train Forum"..*
......


----------



## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> It is a well known *"Fact"* that individuals do *"Not"* like to read *"Instructions"..*
> 
> So you alone do *"Not"* like my *"Quotes"..*
> 
> --> Get Stuffed..__
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are *"NO"* rules how I can *"Post" *my *"Instructions".. *
> 
> --> Get Stuffed..__
> 
> 
> 
> *Fact: [fcwilt]*
> 
> Are you here to* "Help Others" *in this *"Thread"* or is your *"Goal", * in this *"Thread"*, to only *"Attack Me" *??__
> 
> 
> 
> Another *"Fine" *example of present day (2016) *"Model Train Forum"..*
> 
> ......



I just haven't been focusing on the way you format your posts. Though it is about 10 times worse on a phone screen then a computer.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Thanks ..*



redman88 said:


> I just haven't been focusing on the way you format your posts.
> 
> Though it is about 10 times worse on a phone screen then a computer.


Hi [redman88]_:smilie_daumenpos:_
This will inform many other "Individuals" that a "Computer" should be used to to "View" my instructions..
- Thanks -
......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> Are you here to* "Help Others" *in this *"Thread"* or is your *"Goal", * in this *"Thread"*, to only *"Attack Me" *??__


I think pointing out that your posts would be more readable if they weren't so littered with quotes and such IS AN ATTEMPT to help you and the rest of us.

However since you seem to feel that you are doing a grand job feel free to continue.

And your posts will speak for themselves.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Please Help Many Other "Future Readers" --> With This Detailed Information..*

*Please Help Many Other "Future Readers" --> With This Detailed Information.. *

For some reason "Model Train Forum" will "Not" allow me to put up a "Total Count" voting listing.. 
Within (x6) months, maybe* "All"* of this information will be *"Lost"* into *"Past History"..*

I know that there are "Hundreds" of you that "Want" to reply,
-BUT-
You are "Afraid", due to confrontation "Attacks" from some other members.. 

The "Only" way to prevent all of this "Information" to be lost into "Past History",
is that [gunrunnerjohn] (Forum Administrator) places a* "Sticky" *on this "Thread"..

Only *"You"* can *"Help"* many other *"Future Readers*" with this "Detailed Information" in this "Thread"..

*Help Others: (#1)*
If any or all of this "Information" was helpful.. 
--> Reply to this "Thread".. (Helpful)..

*Help Others: (#2)*
If you feel that this "Information" should be "Permanently" posted on "Top".. 
--> Reply to this "Thread".. (Should have a *"Sticky"*).. 
......


----------



## CTValleyRR

Since you asked, I will give you my personal opinions. Interpret this however you want, it is not a personal attack, but a statement of my perceptions (and BTW, I'm never afraid to post anything, anywhere, but I have better things to do with my time than to deal with some of the reactions I expect to get):

1) I agree with those who find your threads incredibly hard to follow. Interestingly, despite how upset you seem to get when you think people are attacking you, the last time I made this comment on one of your threads, you replied with a very snide comment about the information being too advanced for me.

2) I find your entire attitude to be abrasive, which greatly decreases my desire to read any of your posts, limiting their usefulness. The "my way or the highway" tone is rather off-putting as well.

3) You suggest that the loss of all of these "fine" posts you create would be a great tragedy. There is lots of terrific information in the various threads on this forum, most of which was not written by you. Much of it is buried way down on the thread lists. Some of it doesn't have it's own topic. That's the nature of a forum. The value of a forum is in the ability of people to ask specific questions and get answers tailored to them from more experienced members, not in having a vast body of posts which are "one size fits all" information.

4 While your posts are full of good information, it's more on the order of a textbook than anything helpful or particularly useful. If I wanted help with a specific part of tortoise installation, it would very difficult to find it among the 6+ pages of posts, with no indexing or anything. If I were a beginner, rather than wade through all that, I would just post my own question.

Frankly, I think that if you want to establish a body of educational threads -- especially if you just want to dispense your "wisdom" from on high, rather than engaging in discussion of it, you should start your own website, where you will have total control over content. If you'll pardon the pun, this is really the wrong forum for what you are trying to do.


----------



## johnfl68

I've also have kept quite for a long time.

I have to agree with CRVallerRR 100%, you come off as "I know everything, the only way you can do things is my way".

It is not the right attitude for here. 

People come on here for help and assistance and to have fun, not to be lectured by you, in what YOU think is the right way to do things. Often times there are many different ways to accomplish the same task, all have good working results.

Any time anyone questions YOUR way, or suggests an alternative way, you get all defensive and argumentative that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

It needs to stop, you are not helping anyone by lecturing on and on like you do, and treating people the way you do.


----------



## Bwells

I agree with fcwilt and ctv so I guess I need to "get stuffed" as well, eh?


----------



## higgsbosonman

I usually just ignore these posts, because the formatting literally gives me headaches with all the parenthesis, quotation marks, bold, and arrows and stuff. Also, arguments about ohms law just do not interest me.

If you want to read ED-RRR's posts easily, just copy-paste to word without formatting (use the paste drop down menu under the home tab, and click "paste special"), and use the replace tool to get rid of every quotation mark. Then it reads like a normal post. As an example, here is one I just did so I could catch up on this thread. It shouldn't be necessary, but it works.

-higgsbosonman autotranslater activated-

Only complete (x1) location (100%) complete, before continuing on to the next switch 
track location..
This will insure that Everything is Correct ..

Procedure: (#1)
Insert the completed unit into the Correct Location ..
The Throw wire Must be positioned in the Center Position ..

Procedure: (#2)
Place the switch track over the switch machine having the Throw Wire feed through the required location..
Insure that the switch track is in the Correct location.. (Layout Lines)..
Insure that the throw switch tracks are Centrally Located .. (x2 Yellow Lines)..
Insure that the switch track is in a Relaxed position, Not touching any of the Side Walls ..
If required, cut away any touching foam material.. (Window Frame)..

Procedure: (#3)
To now permanently Mount the hardboard base..
Use (100%) Wood Glue and fill in All the gaps..
Allow a Minimum of (x24) hours for the glue to dry, before Touching the switch track..

Warning:
The switch machine Throw Wire has a lot of Torque ..
Do Not apply voltage to the switch machine Before it is Permanently Mounted ..
The switch track will Move ..

Special Notes:
All switch tracks are in the Correct Locations ..
The switch machine Throw Wire is in the Center Location ..
Use (100%) Wood Glue and glue the switch track to the hardboard base..
This will prevent any movement..
Allow a Minimum of (x24) hours for the glue to dry, before Touching the switch tracks..


----------



## /6 matt

I haven't kept quiet and we had it out several months ago for 6 pages of garbage because I seen your BS from the beginning and had a lot of fun calling you on it. You complain about being attacked all the time and keep mentioning "typical train forum". Do yourself, and everybody else a favor and go find another forum to fill with your pretentious garbage since your life is so miserable at this one.

PS: I don't care what you engineered, you look half brain-dead cause you can't write a complete sentence. There ARE rules for how you write and they're called English grammar. Read a book sometime.

EDIT: I know my grammar is deplorable but goodness there is a limit.


----------



## redman88

I was trying to keep this one going till I got all the stuff together to start a thread of my own. But guess this one will be locked before I can get to work.


----------



## /6 matt

He brought it on himself.


----------



## CTValleyRR

redman88 said:


> I was trying to keep this one going till I got all the stuff together to start a thread of my own. But guess this one will be locked before I can get to work.


If you really want to keep the thread going, you can just come on every few days and post the word "bump" or something similar. 

If you REALLY want this to remain near the top of the thread list rather than letting it fade into obscurity, that is. You can always find it again by searching on "tortoise".


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi All..*

*Hi All:*
It is nice to see all of my loyal members all together at the same time, at the same location..

*Tortoise switch machine instructions..*
http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf = (x2 pages)..
http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Page724.htm = (x1 page)..
Some of the information posted is not correct..
- The 3/8” x #4 phillips retaining screws are not supplied.. 
- The throw wire image is not to scale..
- Using 30 switch machines powered by a single 9 or 12 volt, 500mA power supply will burn out..
- There are no completed instructions when applying to thick foam..

*This Thread: [ED-RRR]..*
Tortoise --> Switch Track Machine.. Special Notes..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=82402
- Instructions that are not available from Circuitron..
- Fully detailed step by step instructions..
- Images detailing what instructions are shown..
- Just look at the title and images of posting for easy individual search.. 

*Question: (#1)*
What above (x2) instructions are more helpful for a total beginner starting model train railroading?

*Question: (#2)*
Why have I not been proven (100%) wrong in any of my postings in this thread for incorrect information?

*Question: (#3)*
Why are all the personnel attacks towards me directly from posting #54 and on, only applying to my thread layout
instructions and my attitude?
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi Again..*

*Facts: (2000)*
I have been involved in model railroading [HO] scale since 2000 (x16 years)..
I also have a special model train software program listing all of my model train supplies and model train manufactures..
Over 1/3 (30%) no longer exist..
In my [DCC] threads, all of the manufactures are now reducing manufacturing of many [DCC] modules..
For quite some time there have been no technical information updates..

*My [DCC] Posting: (1st Sticky)*
Add [DCC] "Locomotive Sound" --> Saving Hundreds of $'s..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68202
I received this "sticky" from the administrator [gunruunerjohn]..

*Facts: (2016)*
It sure looks like that this model train forum, does not like (know it all's), how they post detailed information..
I am the only individual that has challenged the administrator [gunruunerjohn]..
Because of this, the administrator [gunruunerjohn] will never ever post a "sticky" on any of my other threads..

Even though I get very high number of viewers (1,000.00's) in this forum, all of my other thread's will be totally lost in past history..
The beginner model train layout builder will no longer receive any advanced technical information..
This web site relies on the number of viewers viewing the advertising that is paying the ($'s) for this web site.. 
I have already seen some of my advanced technical information lost in past history..
So in time the beginner model train layout builder will no longer receive any advanced technical information that I have posted..








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*My Attitude and Behavior.. Why ??*

Just look at my past history *"Posted Threads"* where I was *"Constantly Attacked"* with *"Totally False"* and* "Old Outdated Information"..*
- Digitrax power supplies are too costly ($'s) and have very limited amperage V-AC power supply..
- That switching power supplies should be filtered for [DCC] operations for command control stations.. 
- Digitrax power supply should be 15.V-DC minimum to command stations [HO] scale..
- That when using [DCC] it is recommended to use correct grounding procedures..
- That when using [DCC] it is recommended that all electric motors should have a capacitor added to prevent electronic noise..
- Proved that steam generators were still used up to the late 1990's for passenger cars in Canada.
- Was constantly being teased about copy *write* -or- copy *right..*

*Model Train Railroading:*
This model train forum, has made "Me" become this type of "Individual"..
- There are individuals that --> attacked me with outdated incorrect information..
- There are individuals that --> just like to stir up the pot for the fun of it..
- There are individuals that --> act like cheer leaders that want to join in to stir up the pot..
- There are individuals that --> act like children..

So this is what a * (2016) Model Train Forum *(http://www.modeltrainforum.com/) --> has now become..








......


----------



## fcwilt

Yes you have posted some information that is correct and could be helpful.

You have also posted much information that is incorrect and/or misleading.

The difficulty being that those who need the most help lack the knowledge to know the difference.

And you are still using quotes incorrectly which makes your posts hard to read.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Reply.. [fcwilt]..*



fcwilt said:


> Yes you have posted some information that is correct and could be helpful.
> You have also posted much information that is incorrect and/or misleading.


*Your Words:*
posted much information that is incorrect and/or misleading.

*Where:??* __ (incorrect and/or misleading)..

*Question:*
Are you presently using Tortoise switch machines on your table top top model train layout using a "Thick Foam Base" ??
......


----------



## fcwilt

You have made posts on numerous topics and I am not going to spend a lot of time digging through the others looking for the incorrect/misleading information.

But from this post here are a few examples:

_... Many individuals are now "Only" using 2." thick "Foam" top base..

The Tortoise switch machine "Throw Wire" can "Not" be this long...
_

That is either incorrect or misleading. The wire that comes with the machine cannot be this long, true, but you can provide you own longer ones. 

I have 78 Tortoise devices mounted underneath my layout and with a few exceptions they are working through 1/2" of plywood and 2" of foam. The exceptions are using the Tortoise remote mount to work through 1/2" of plywood and 6" of foam.


_The Tortoise switch machine "Throw Wire" is a very critical component to the switch machine..

No wonder many individuals do "Not" follow this difficult procedure..
_

I would not use the words "very critical" as the Tortoise is quite adaptable. Making the wire as suggested is not difficult but also not necessary. None of my throw wires have two bends as suggested. They only the short 90 degree been at the bottom. And they all work just fine.


_The Tortoise switch machine has a lot of "Torque" when going into the "Stall Voltage" (in parked position)..
_

If the Tortoise motor truly had a lot of torque it would be hard to stall. The gearing allows the Tortoise to generate a decent amount of pressure on the turnout tie bar but this is not torque.


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> *Facts: (2000)*
> I have been involved in model railroading [HO] scale since 2000 (x16 years)..
> So, you haven't been in this hobby as long as a lot of us here ....
> I also have a special model train software program listing all of my model train supplies and model train manufactures..
> So, you know how to make lists on a computer ....
> Over 1/3 (30%) no longer exist..
> There's a reason for that ....
> In my [DCC] threads, all of the manufactures are now reducing manufacturing of many [DCC] modules..
> 
> For quite some time there have been no technical information updates..
> 
> *My [DCC] Posting: (1st Sticky)*
> Add [DCC] "Locomotive Sound" --> Saving Hundreds of $'s..
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68202
> I received this "sticky" from the administrator [gunruunerjohn]..
> 
> *Facts: (2016)*
> It sure looks like that this model train forum, does not like (know it all's), how they post detailed information..
> I am the only individual that has challenged the administrator [gunruunerjohn]..
> Stupid move right there ....
> Because of this, the administrator [gunruunerjohn] will never ever post a "sticky" on any of my other threads..
> I don't blame him. The administrator on any other forum would have banned you immediately.
> 
> Even though I get very high number of viewers Everyone loves a train wreck (1,000.00's) Is that a quantity or a dollar amount ? in this forum, all of my other thread's will be totally lost in past history..
> And why do you think YOUR posts are more important than anyone else's contributions ?
> The beginner model train layout builder will no longer receive any advanced technical information..
> Really ? - You put yourself on that high of a pedestal ?
> This web site relies on the number of viewers viewing the advertising that is paying the ($'s) for this web site..
> I have already seen some of my advanced technical information lost in past history..
> So in time the beginner model train layout builder will no longer receive any advanced technical information that I have posted..
> I hardly think people will have gone without having not read your posts. YOU obviously got your information from scrounging the internet - what makes you think others aren't just as capable ?
> 
> View attachment 176217
> 
> ......


You really need to get off your high horse - you aren't as important as you think you are. While some of your information may be of value to new modelers, it's hardly "advanced technical information" as you claim it to be. 

The sooner you admit to being no better than everyone else, and admit you don't know everything, the better off you will be in a public forum. 

Mark.


----------



## higgsbosonman

ED-RRR, the fact that you insist that contriving excuses rather than trying to improve your posts or clarify your design choices or reasoning, especially in this thread, tells me that you really are not interested in feedback or discussion, and oddly enough, that is exactly what a forum is for.

Secondly, don't use the excuse that you are an engineer as a reason for why you are right. That's just downright dumb, because if you were a good engineer, you'd convey your information in a more understandable, professional manner than you currently do.

If you want to make tutorials for people just getting into the hobby, you need to write clearly. your illustrations are fine, but unfortunately most people will not struggle to read your text and will simply move on to an easier source of information (which is easily found by doing a google search).

As a college student studying mechanical engineering, I know that if I typed the way you do, I would fail every course because my professors wouldn't even grade my work, and I would certainly never get a job.

furthermore, I am annoyed that you'd plagarize the work of others just to give information that will pad up your tutorial. As an engineer, you should know that plagarization of work could not only get you fired, it could get you sued into extinction. I know that it could get me kicked out of college, so taking other people's work without referencing them with even as little as a link to the original work is not something you should do. I know that these are not consequences that you have to worry about, I would think that as an engineer these sorts of things would be ingrained into you and you'd think about citing someone's hard work if you're going to copy it.

BTW, it's not hard to cite a source, and it's even easier to track them down. Google image search reveals these two much more legible sources of information that you copied:

http://www.readingeastpenn.com/construction.htm
http://www.tauxe.net/ho/turnouts.html

I'm not going to track down any more, but seriously, give credit where credit is due.

Currently, there are far better sources of this information. If you made it more concise (or a lot more concise), than it'd be worth creating. If it was more detailed, or original, or showed the switch actually wired properly with the various switch frog power, lights, and other accessories in a clear, step-by-step process, then it'd be worth creating. Right now, it's just a jumbled glob of stuff that needs a lot of work. And there are a lot of repeated pictures that just puff up this thread. 

Also, stop worrying about your tutorials getting lost to the dustbin of history. It's where everything that isn't stellar goes. That's why the Gorre and Daphetid is remembered; because it was exceptional, and most others around that time were not. Others will determine the value of this work, and if nobody cares, well... nobody cares.

And there is more than one way to skin a cat, so don't dismiss another way of doing things, especially if they can prove that it works. This is like a slap to the face, and is a good way to make people mad at you. Which is what is happening.

Lastly, gunrunnerjohn is not someone who needs to be challenged. He is not someone to stand up against. He isn't oppressive, or rude, or anything at all, honestly. He's a very respected and responsible administrator who does a really good job, especially with how large this forum is. You will gain no friends by trying to pick fights with him.


----------



## johnfl68

Speaking of plagiarism, I know for a fact one of your images is from Model Railroader, and I am pretty sure you did not get permission to use it.

Their illustrations have a very recognizable look and they paid their staff illustrators to create them just for their magazine and website.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi [johnfl68]..*



johnfl68 said:


> Speaking of plagiarism, I know for a *fact one of your images is from Model Railroader, *
> and I am pretty sure you did not get permission to use it.
> 
> Their illustrations have a very recognizable look
> and they paid their staff illustrators to create them just for their magazine and website.


*Question:*
How am I able to *"Hack" *into the *Model Railroader* magazine and website and take their images __??

*Another totally untrue and a totally false unproven statement..*
Pictures that are not mine personally, can be very easily found doing many different Google searches, Tortoise Switch Machine..
There are also no copyright symbols (C).. 
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi [higgsbosonman]*



higgsbosonman said:


> If you want to make tutorials for people just getting into the hobby,
> you need to write clearly. your illustrations are fine,
> but unfortunately most people will not struggle to read your text
> and will simply move on to an easier source of information (which is easily found by doing a google search).


*So you are stating that Circuitron Tortoise Switch Machine instructions are "Better" then mine..*__



higgsbosonman said:


> As a college student studying mechanical engineering, I know that if I typed the way you do,
> I would fail every course because my professors wouldn't even grade my work,
> and I would certainly never get a job.


Again, a *"Repeat"* individual telling me that he does *"Not"* like my instructions..
Of course your professors would fail you because they are teachers and not actual mechanical engineers.. 
Actual working mechanical engineers make a lot more ($'s) than teachers (Professors) do.. 
You better not plan on going into the aerospace sector.. Just look at an O.D.S. for a 777 landing gear..



higgsbosonman said:


> Bla-Bla-Bla............


Why not write a book about this subject that has *"Nothing"* to do with Tortoise Switch Machines....
Nobody will read or understand your large reply..
Besides, it "*Still"* has nothing to do with *Tortoise Switch Machines..*
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Question:*
> How am I able to *"Hack" *into the *Model Railroader* magazine and website and take their images __??
> ......


Probably the same way that I do,
right click, "save image"

Seriously though, I do sometimes include images from the net in my posts, and don't concern myself with any consideration of copyright violations .. and don't reference the containing page unless it contains further information that would be helpful to other users, nor do I make any suggestion that it may be MY original work ..


----------



## Genetk44

ED-RRR, I suspect that English is not your mother-tongue so I think a bit of the problem in your posts is due to clumsy grammar and vocabulary. So maybe do spell and grammar check on your posts before hitting the send key.

Plus the way you format your posts is not really "standard" to the way the rest of us read and see forum posts. Because of all that I think many of your posts are coming across as unclear and even contentious.

Why don't you take a step back,look at the way the rest of us format out posts and try to follow suit? Might make it easier for all concerned.


----------



## higgsbosonman

ED-RRR said:


> *Another totally untrue and a totally false unproven statement..*
> Pictures that are not mine personally, can be very easily found doing many different Google searches, Tortoise Switch Machine..
> There are also no copyright symbols (C)..
> ......


It's not the fact that works are copyrighted that makes you need a citation. That's why I said that you won't have to worry about being sued or anything like that. The copyright is so that the copyright holders can insure that nobody else is allowed to use their material because it costs them money. Obviously, the people who made the websites you took from don't have a copyright, so they are not expecting to make money. They just wanted to provide a source of information.

Right off of wikipedia's page on plagarism (oh wow! an in-text citation! how hard was that?), they state:

Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation" and "stealing and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions" and the representation of them as one's own original work. The idea remains problematic with unclear definitions and unclear rules. The modern concept of plagiarism as immoral and originality as an ideal emerged in Europe only in the 18th century, particularly with the Romantic movement.​They also clarify the difference I'm trying to make here:

Plagiarism is not in itself a crime, but can constitute copyright infringement. In academia and industry, it is a serious ethical offense. Plagiarism and copyright infringement overlap to a considerable extent, but they are not equivalent concepts, and many types of plagiarism do not constitute copyright infringement, which is defined by copyright law and may be adjudicated by courts. Plagiarism is not defined or punished by law, but rather by institutions (including professional associations, educational institutions, and commercial entities, such as publishing companies).​
If you want to read more, here is the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

I'm not expecting MLA formatted citation pages here; a link to the page works just fine.

Seriously, have a basic understanding about things before you start firing shots. Obviously, I have no power to stop you from just blatantly copying other people's stuff. That power resides in the one who runs and manages this institution (the guy you tried to pick fights with). I can call draw attention to it, though.

It's not that it is legally required that you put a citation. It's the fact that you wholesale took everything they did, write it off as your own, and not only take credit for it (since you didn't make a citation), but expect to be seen as a genius because you successfully copy-pasted large amounts of other peoples work. This is not acceptable behavior. Especially from someone with a degree in Engineering.

I should not have to do a google search to find out who you are copying. You should have some decency and just give credit to those who did all the work, rather than passing off their work as your own. If you are so unethical that you try to stand behind the 'According to the law, they cannot sue me' defense, then you just lost all credibility.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi [Mark R.]..*



Mark R. said:


> You really need to get off your high horse -
> you aren't as important as you think you are.


Why are you trying to *"Change" *the subject __??
This is only regarding *Tortoise Switch Machines..*


Mark R. said:


> While some of your information may be of value to new modelers,
> it's hardly* "advanced technical information"* as you claim it to be.


*[Mark R.]..*it's hardly* "advanced technical information"* as you claim it to be. 

*Totally untrue and a false unproven statement..*
How to mount a Tortoise switch machine..
- testing the Tortoise switch machine before installation is (100%) my own..
- testing the Tortoise switch machine at "Mimimum" 6.V-DC is (100%) my own..
- installing the Tortoise switch machine "After" the track is installed is (100%) my own..

I see *"No'"* contribution in this *"Thread"* to help others (beginners) from you, *[Mark R.]* in this *"Thread"..*
Just another fine *"Example"* how some individuals *(Morons)* behave in this *"Forum"*..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi [higgsbosonman]..*



higgsbosonman said:


> More Bla Bla Bla..


This *"Thread"* is in regards of *"Only" *the Tortoise Switch Machine..
Are you trying to represent yourself as another *"Moron"* in this *"Forum"*.. 

*Question:*
Who really cares that "Microsoft Explorer" blocks copyright images
and Google does not *"Block"* copyright images..

I found all of my images using only *Google..*
If you do not like it, take it up with Google -->* "Not Me"..*

What helpful *"Input"* have you* [higgsbosonman]* done ??
......


----------



## higgsbosonman

ED-RRR said:


> *So you are stating that Circuitron Tortoise Switch Machine instructions are "Better" then mine..*__


Yes. They are better textually. They could use some more pictures, but otherwise they are very well written.



ED-RRR said:


> Again, a *"Repeat"* individual telling me that he does *"Not"* like my instructions..
> Of course your professors would fail you because they are teachers and not actual mechanical engineers..
> Actual working mechanical engineers make a lot more ($'s) than teachers (Professors) do..
> You better not plan on going into the aerospace sector.. Just look at an O.D.S. for a 777 landing gear..


You should really be careful about what you say about a bunch of people with PHDs in multiple fields of engineering. Almost every single professor I have had has their doctorate, and usually a few decades experience in the field. In fact, I have had professors who worked on the F-16, F-18, who did modeling of nuclear weapons, and who have done design work for NASA (and still do as outside contractors). Just to name a few.

I can assure you that these individuals are far more educated and experienced than just simply being 'teachers'. If they were simply teachers, I wouldn't be paying as much as I do. They have certainly shown more professionalism than someone who plagarizes other people's work.

Stop making personal attacks at people you don't even know.




ED-RRR said:


> Why not write a book about this subject that has *"Nothing"* to do with Tortoise Switch Machines....
> Nobody will read or understand your large reply..
> Besides, it "*Still"* has nothing to do with *Tortoise Switch Machines..*
> ......


I don't need to write a book. we've been doing it in this thread ever since page 6.


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> Why are you trying to *"Change" *the subject __??
> This is only regarding *Tortoise Switch Machines..*
> 
> *Sorry, but YOU are the one who veered off course when you started crying about how your precious threads were going to bumped down into history if they weren't pinned, and lost forever ....*
> 
> *[Mark R.]..*it's hardly* "advanced technical information"* as you claim it to be.
> 
> *Totally untrue and a false unproven statement..*
> How to mount a Tortoise switch machine..
> - testing the Tortoise switch machine before installation is (100%) my own..
> - testing the Tortoise switch machine at "Mimimum" 6.V-DC is (100%) my own..
> - installing the Tortoise switch machine "After" the track is installed is (100%) my own..
> 
> *Really ? THAT is advanced technical information ? 100% your own - you really think nobody else has done any of that before you ? C'mon man, those are the basics. Why don't you come up with some REAL advanced technical information on your own - like how to control the Tortoise switch machine automatically utilizing IR detection of the approaching train ? THAT would be cool !*
> 
> I see *"No'"* contribution in this *"Thread"* to help others (beginners) from you, *[Mark R.]* in this *"Thread"..*
> Just another fine *"Example"* how some individuals *(Morons)* behave in this *"Forum"*..
> 
> *Won't get any input from me on the subject as I don't use Tortoise switch machines. All I could do would be to copy and paste information from others on the subject, and that would just be a waste of time ....*
> 
> ......


Mark.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm going to close this thread as there ceases to be any technical content in the posts. If you guys want to argue the merits in this fashion, Union Station is the place to be.


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