# Prototype Length Trains



## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

I feel that it may just be me, but I find that one of the major appeals of having a dream-sized layout would be to run prototype-sized trains. As stated in an earlier thread, my 'dream' layout would be a feasible scale model of an actual railroad line; of course, I now realize based on reception on that thread that, even with a lot of scale miles of track modeled, some 'selective compression' between stations would still be necessary. Running prototype-length trains is one of the reasons for this dream - I'm talking about 125-car freights and 15 car passenger trains. In my opinion, the best way to get realistic operations is to mimic them _exactly_.

Does anyone else think that this would be appealing? I believe I saw an article in MR about a layout that ran prototype-length freight trains, but that was a while ago. On that note, has anyone actually _accomplished_ this sort of thing?


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## geekchris (Jun 23, 2015)

I remember seeing a video on a layout in New Jersey, I believe, that ran prototype trains. It was open to public display. The layout was called "Northlands", if I remember correctly. The video was ten odd years old, so I'm not sure if it's still around. However, it was such a big layout, I think it still would be.
They also had some impressive heights, the building was 20' tall, and the dug down 10' to get accurate-sized rocky mountain peaks.

If I had a large area and enough money to hire professional layout builders, as well as having a group large enough to run a layout that worked on that scale, I think it'd be cool to have a layout that could run prototypical train lengths.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Well, sure it is appealing. But how ya gonna do it? With 3 or 4 locos and 125 cars you
are talking almost 100 feet of train. Very few layouts will handle that. I hope to get my
dream layout going by fall, but it will only have 80 running feet. That is bigger than most layouts. I have seen a 100 car train at a train show. It was a big club layout but it still looked like the train was chasing it's tail.I think you can get the idea of a long train without 125 cars. 25 or 30 cars is a long train. Remember, we are in scale.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Dreadnought said:


> has anyone actually _accomplished_ this sort of thing?


the Pacific Southern has both empty and full coal train with 80 cars. One behind two articulateds.

More recently it has begun running multiple 15+ car passenger trains, one behind an A-B-B-A consist.


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## dinwitty (Oct 29, 2015)

if you have an ore train 100 cars is like 50 feet. Depending of your era full size trains may be limited, today trains are often miles long. an average train on the NKP would be 75-100 cars behind a berk. If you can get 50 plus cars regularly I think your doing good for a model sized prototype train.


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## higgsbosonman (Nov 17, 2014)

I know a guy who has a prototypical coal drag with ~90 cars and a handful of engines to pull it. It was 50-60 feet long (each coal car is only 6 or so inches), and we were able to run it on what could be considered a smaller club layout (or large home layout). Our mainline was around 120 feet or so, so it wasn't quite chasing its tail. 
The real problem isn't the length of the train, but the reliability of coupling a hundred cars together. Kadee metal couplers are not just nice, they are required; any other coupler will break from the load. we ran 30 inch radius curves, and any tighter and you may have problems from stringing the cars from the load unless you have mid-train helpers. The trucks also ended up falling apart, either from being lower quality or from the heavy lateral loads, or maybe both. Either way, it was impressive but temperamental. Totally worth it and fun to watch, though.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

I know what ya mean. Running long trains is a far away dream for most modelers due to constraints on room and money.
The Northlandz layout runs numerous short trains on a whole bunch of independent loops. With a 1 1/2 mile walking path through the layout tour, you do see a lot of trains running though.
When I bought my current house in 2011, my primary objective was to build my lifetime dream layout. The basement would have to be about 2000 square feet with all utilities in the middle, away from the walls. I wanted a high ceiling and good lighting. I found it.
I started building my current layout in January of 2012. The design was an around the wall with peninsulas for added running room. The layout would be powered by digitrax with interlocking signal system. It would have curves of no less than 48" radius. The best track plan that I could come up with for a single level provided 6.5 scale miles of double track mainline. The scenery would be southwest United States and would go from tall mountains to flat desert with a few bridges. The layout would support long trains of more than 75 cars and offer numerous industries and a large sorting yard.
The following videos offer some looks at the progress.

This first video is shortly after finishing the signal system and features a long hopper train.






This next video is an intermodal with DPU on the rear.






This next video is an over all of the layout with a few trains running.






and finally the passenger trains.






and the Zepher






Yes, there are layouts out there that offer what you are dreaming of. My empire is right downstairs. Sometimes I like to just sit at the desk down there with a few trains running with enough separation to not collide and I'll fall asleep watching em.
You can view about 70 other videos of the layout on my YouTube page at EasternSP Rails. There are actually two YouTube pages that I have running under the same name. One has my picture with the title, the other doesn't.
Enjoy and dream.


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## geekchris (Jun 23, 2015)

I just thought of another layout that I've been to that runs long trains. It's a 2-rail O Scale layout in Union Lake, Michigan, and most of their trains tend to be fairly large. They always have a one hundred car coal drag going, and I believe the hold the record for longest O Scale train, a thousand odd cars I believe. Not quite prototypical in that regard. If you're ever in the area it's worth checking out.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

VERY nice, Ken! I haven't been able to run long trains since the 80's, now my " empire" is just downstairs also. But my freights are only four to eight cars. Impressive work you've done.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Not all prototype trains are long trains. Back in the 80's Model Railroader Magazine ran several issues of "Pike Size Passenger Trains" which were based on pre-Amtrak trains of an F or GP unit and 1 to 3 coaches.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Gramps said:


> Not all prototype trains are long trains. Back in the 80's Model Railroader Magazine ran several issues of "Pike Size Passenger Trains" which were based on pre-Amtrak trains of an F or GP unit and 1 to 3 coaches.


That's one reason I like to model passenger trains - it's not so hard to do a complete prototypical consist. Even so, 9-10 cars is probably my outer limit. Just not enough layout to do more and not look a little funky.


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## SD90 (May 25, 2016)

Coming from N scale, you can run 'more' prototypical length trains in that scale. My last 2 N scale layouts I ran 50 car trains, which looked right to me. In HO, I'm finding that running a 50 car train wont be happening, but I think 25-30 car HO scale trains should look good? 
It would be cool to have the room to run 100 car plus trains!


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Not all passenger trains were so long.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Cycleops said:


> Not all passenger trains were so long.


WOW, those colors really make that look like trainset equipment, don't they?
That's looks to be an early SW 1, I gotta look that one up.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Cycleops said:


> Not all passenger trains were so long


That was just a car being shunted......don't think it's an actual "passenger train".....


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I got stopped by a CSX train on their West main
yesterday. Didn't get a
good look at the Loco but it sure did have the
general shape of S-1.
It was pulling a mixed freight of around 20 cars.
I had never seen a loco like it around Jacksonville
before.

Don


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The Amtrak trains that run from one side of Missouri to the other are only 3 cars long.
They run 4 of them a day. 2 east and 2 west. Most of the cars are old straight sides.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The New Haven went to RDC's along many of its rural routes in the last days because the passenger volumes didn't need more than one car at a time.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Long trains*



Dreadnought said:


> I feel that it may just be me, but I find that one of the major appeals of having a dream-sized layout would be to run prototype-sized trains. As stated in an earlier thread, my 'dream' layout would be a feasible scale model of an actual railroad line; of course, I now realize based on reception on that thread that, even with a lot of scale miles of track modeled, some 'selective compression' between stations would still be necessary. Running prototype-length trains is one of the reasons for this dream - I'm talking about 125-car freights and 15 car passenger trains. In my opinion, the best way to get realistic operations is to mimic them _exactly_.
> 
> Does anyone else think that this would be appealing? I believe I saw an article in MR about a layout that ran prototype-length freight trains, but that was a while ago. On that note, has anyone actually _accomplished_ this sort of thing?


Dreadnought;

Several club layouts are big enough to run long trains. I was in an N scale club that routinely ran 50+ cars in a train. I don't know about 125 cars though. One member tried to break the Guinness book record of over 400 cars. He managed to run that train, using mid-train helpers; but it needed constant attention to keep going. The club layout also had 25 scale miles of track to run on!


Traction Fan


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## geekchris (Jun 23, 2015)

Here's the layout I was talking about:
http://www.chi-townunionstation.com/tabs/worlds-largest.htm
It really is quite a sight....


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> That was just a car being shunted......don't think it's an actual "passenger train".....


You're almost certainly right, showed it to illustrate the 'prototype for everything' rule.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Except at the pic is not a proto-type for a short passenger train....it's a proto-type for a switcher shunting a passenger car....:laugh:


Now, *THIS* is a short passenger train....


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*40' box cars on turns*

shorter length freight cars(40') are more appealing IMO.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

mopac said:


> The Amtrak trains that run from one side of Missouri to the other are only 3 cars long.
> They run 4 of them a day. 2 east and 2 west. Most of the cars are old straight sides.


We recently rode the Texas Eagle from Chicago to Dallas and back. One loco with eight Superliner cars.
The California Zephyr typically has one loco with nine Superliners.
I have two separate loops on my layout running freight trains. Both have 16 cars + caboose. They look pretty good at that length.
Bob


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> That was just a car being shunted......don't think it's an actual "passenger train".....


Look up some photos from the days just before Amtrak started, there are many famous named trains that had devolved into no more than a locomotive and 1 car. Odd to see a big E7 pulling a single car.


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## slammin (Mar 25, 2016)

raleets said:


> We recently rode the Texas Eagle from Chicago to Dallas and back. One loco with eight Superliner cars.
> The California Zephyr typically has one loco with nine Superliners.
> I have two separate loops on my layout running freight trains. Both have 16 cars + caboose. They look pretty good at that length.
> Bob


I hate to pick nits, but I live west of Grand Junction Colorado. The California Zephyr stops here westbound and eastbound and I have never seen less than 2 locos on point.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

This is probably a pretty prototypical sized consist. This is my two Lionel Legacy PRR U-Boats and 115 freight cars. One locomotive is in the center of the consist as a helper. You can see the head of the train coming back around after going through the reverse loop.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> This is probably a pretty prototypical sized consist. This is my two Lionel Legacy PRR U-Boats and 115 freight cars. One locomotive is in the center of the consist as a helper. You can see the head of the train coming back around after going through the reverse loop.


That's impressive, very cool.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

*Thread Continuation: proto length model trains*






These old Tyco pieces come pretty cheap- people give them 
away, 2 for a dollar, etc. I collected a passel of the rather
common Tyco NH box car, with an occasional Marx tossed
in, for good measure. I was told the "Snow Bird" paint scheme
was a fantasy piece, but it turns out it was not, but limited 
to the short lived "Dan'l Webster," as seen on the opening 
credits. I've lost count, somewhere between 35 to 40 Tyco
box cars pulled by a powered A-B-A Athearn set is what 
it takes to get it to move. The drag from the plastic wheel 
sets is quite considerable.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Never understood why we don't take much to modeling 10-20 Mi. short lines/branch lines. This length RR could very much be fully replicated; especially in N scale (tho I'm HO)..
Also, if one did do a complete rail line, to be run prototypicaly as well, it would then need to be point to point with turning facilities on one or both ends instead of an unrealistic continual or roundy-round scheme. But this can be accomplished with both compression and enough squiggling and over and under trackage..Thus a full length RR. Only diff is that small RRs don't run 150 cars; more like 8-10..But it would be realistic...M


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Nice layout Ken. I also live in Virginia but here in northern VA the cost of housing is such I cannot afford a house with a basement like yours. I'm going to have to muddle through with about 560 sq ft but I've designed a layout that will hopefully be satisfying. To save money, my wife and I are doing a lot of the basement finishing work ourselves such as drywalling, mudding taping, ceiling and floor and basement bathroom - sweat equity. Hopefully the train room will be ready for layout construction by late summer or fall.

This is the basement as of purchase - at least it was framed in.










First sheets of drywall hung.










This is about how it looks now, mudding is nearly done but a bit touch up and mostly sanding.










It's turned out to be a BIG job for just me and my wife. Took Dec - part of Feb to hang all the drywall. Been mudding/taping and more mudding and sanding from mid Feb to present but about 90% done now.

Plan to install a drop/suspended ceiling after we've painted the walls, sky blue of course.

Here is a generalized layout plan without industries added. I could only squeeze in curves in the 32 to 42 inch radius range (minimum 32) and siding only 20 feet, but it's all I could manage. horizonal green rectangles represent the ceiling beams and blue squares roughly where 2x2 LED flat panel lights will go (4k temp). I have a 14x14 work shop area to the right and there is a 12x12' room of to the bottom. Possible expansion but for now wife plans to use as a lounge area.










Anyway, per original topic, train lengths I would expect to be 28 cars for coal trains with 3 engines and a caboose - should fit in the sidings. Could run the odd 35 or 40 car train as the storage/staging yard will be designed to handle some longer trains.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Good start on a smaller basement. Keeping track of your progress is important so you know where you've been with the project. It takes patience to put up all the drywall before the benchwork. 
Wiring will be a significant step. Make sure you label stuff as you install it. Don't presume you will go back and do that later because most likely, you won't.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

I suppose it's all relative the size thing. To some it seems like a big space, to others a smaller space. But it's about the best we could do.

I've seen some install good sized layouts in unfinished basements but don't really care for the look or atmosphere - and they don't photograph well either. Plus, by finishing the basement properly (code etc.) increasing the value of the home too.

This will be my 4th layout for what it's worth. The first was 16x19' in a garage in Indiana during graduate school while earning my Master of Science degree. The second was 14x26 in a basement up north, and then this one most recently in Manassas 10x18'. It's not my first rodeo as they say and I learn things from each build.


















The last layout I installed quite a few drops to the staging yard and main yard tracks to insure good power feed.










Due to water issues in the last basement, there were some significant delays in progress - the above was about as scenic'd as it got before tear-down and move time. Absolutely everything but the scenery was saved for re-use which should help with saving some cost and giving a head start. I have two 2x8 bench work sections saved from the last layout which will be the "seed" or core sections that will start the next layout. They will go here as shown by the red rectangles:










The other bench-work saved may have to be modified to fit the new footprint. I bought a new compound miter saw last year which will help in the layout building process. Believe it or not, the above layout was completely built using only two power tools, a 25 year old cordless drill and an old Sabre saw. Large pieces of wood were cut down at Home Depot so I could get them the RAV4. This time around I'll have the miter saw and a circular saw and a new cordless drill to speed things up a bit.


Getting back to the original topic of prototypical length trains. It seems to go without saying that space limitations imposed on most of us preclude that. So the best we can do is work with what we got to hopefully create trains that have a decent visual imitation of the real thing. My curves are sharper than I'd like and siding shorter, but you gotta work with what you got.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The drawing looks great. I haven't seen one here since I posted mine. Nice work.


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## patrick.b (Mar 8, 2017)

A little late to the discussion here, but this is one of the great benefits of modelling steam era, especially if you do industrial / short lines where it would be very realistic to have a train with even just a few cars. Plus, the rolling stock is smaller and shorter than modern cars so they look more prototypical on smaller radius curves. I find a 10 car train behind my 2-8-0 on 22.5" radius curves on my 9x10 layout actually looks quite good.

Obviously you should model what you enjoy the most, but that is made easier or more difficult depending on what it is that you like.

As with all hobbies, money is the limiting factor. Also realizing that while these models are much smaller than the real thing, a scale mile in HO is still 60.7 ft! To try and model a distance in perfect scale between two close towns would take an immense amount of space. That's not to say that with enough money you couldn't buy a warehouse and do it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd love to have the space for 100+ car trains, but my layout in construction will have a large folded dogbone, I will have around 115 feet of continuous track in the main loop. I'll I'm sure at least once I'll go for a 100 foot train for fun, but practical limitations will be in the 30-40 car range.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OP wrote:
_"I feel that it may just be me, but I find that one of the major appeals of having a dream-sized layout would be to run prototype-sized trains."_

Just what constitutes a _"prototype-sized"_ train?
To me, that means a 1:1 sized train!

Here's a pic of a "prototype-sized" train for ya:








This is Conrail WNDA-1, stopped in a farmer's field just north of Dover Plains, NY, in 1984.
Engine, 1 boxcar, caboose, 4 more boxcars, another caboose.

I was the engineer that day.
To me, THIS is a "prototype-sized" train!

_(WNDA-1 was a great job that used to run out of Danbury, CT. CR sold that business to the Housatonic RR at the end of 1992)_


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

I think I can speak for most people here (who don't work for a railroad) when I say I'd love to just ride in the cab of a 1:1 sized train.

I'll point out that one of the reasons I like this forum, is that it has people who actually work (or worked) in the real world that we model.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

What is meant by the term Prototype, in regards to long trains ?

Dan


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## Stan D (Feb 1, 2019)

I think the OP was referring to length, and large number of rolling stock.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Panther said:


> What is meant by the term Prototype, in regards to long trains ?
> 
> Dan


In model railroad contexts, "prototype" means the real trains we base our models off of.

In this context of "prototype lengths", most people are talking about how some real freight trains can be quite large (100+ cars) and it's difficult to get model trains of that length going on most layouts.

However "prototype length" isn't a constant, and depends on the train, service etc. As quite a number of posts in the last few pages of this thread have pointed out, if you focus on industrial or local switch jobs, a 5-10 car train can be just as realistic as a 50-100 car train.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Right, and it's not hard to get prototype length trains if focusing on industrial or switching. The trick is for mainline trains, which may of use want to run, even if it seems to buck suggestions of some people.

So my solution is to run trains as long as I can manage and have a somewhat appearance of being long, and include blocks of course imitating what a real RR had, even if not in the same quantities.


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## Atlanta (Apr 29, 2019)

I like seeing long trains running onto own layouts or onto club layouts but in most causes the space is resrtricted like in my situation at home. I still don't have the space to run 100+ cars with several helper locos.
Onto my shortline an eight to twelve car train is a very long train what needs one helper engine or a bigger more powerfull loco ahead.

Long passenger trains are a dream too, exspecially the long Pulman trains of the 1920's.

The added pic shows a short freight train between the Maschen Marshalling Yard and the Luebeck Seaport Freight Yard. The shortest version of this on timetable moving train is the loco only to take some cars back Maschen Marshalling Yard. Such trains moving daily all two hours.

Here a typical prototype length train like some starter packs into our model RR hobby...


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

My layout is not large enough to run 16 carriage passenger trains. I get by with three to five and they still look good. I think any longer and they won't look as good on my length of track.

My longest is a five carriage train that is almost six feet in length. It looks good just about everywhere and especially on the back straight which is about 9' after and before the curves.


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