# Who's the Big Dog Now???



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Not meaning to start a kerfuffle here or ruffle feathers, but this hit me last night, while I was just sitting in my train-room and watching my trains run. 

Throughout most of the first ten years I was into O-Gauge again, from 2003 until about four years ago, I bought mostly Lionel. Frankly I considered MTH's contribution to the hobby was mostly that, by being there, they kept Lionel honest and made Lionel work harder for its market share. 

But last night I was considering the fact that of 23 passenger-train locos I have, 19 are MTH, and they are they ones I run all the time, and that of 57 passenger cars I have for them, all are MTH, and that of the last 12 locos I've bought, all but one is MTH. Over the last four years, MTH has just been working harder at what I want than Lionel, I guess. That, and Menards, etc., and I'm one very happy camper.

So it occurred to me that if Lionel hit the financial rocks and sank, it really would not break my heart now, but that if MTH did, I'd really be blue. 

I just had not looked at it that way before, but that is how it is for me.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

I think Lionel is still the big dog because of it's history and customer loyalty, but, like you, I have more MTH and wouldn't miss Lionel if it went under. It's Railking for me. Lionel doesn't have anything similar. Other than LC+ there isn't much that Lionel offers that really interests me, and RK offers far better sound at the same price point. 

It seems to me that Lionel has marketed to the high end customer and doesn't really consider it worth their while to offer well detailed trains to the guys who run traditional PW type trains. They have Legacy and low end, entry level. It seems Lionel considers me to be on the low end, entry level end of the spectrum, even though I've been in this hobby for 68 years and just doesn't offer much for me while MTH does.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

If you are talking USA volume sold it is still Lionel mainly due in part of their significant sales in starter sets. If you factor in MTH sales in HO, S, O, G, European and Standard, I would not be surprised if MTH matched Lionel in total revenue.

Bill


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

I have both and run both MTH and LIONEL. I still think Lionel is pushing the envelop with their VL products. I get a real kick out of the things Lionel has produced in the past 5-7 years. As far as QC? I still wish both manufacturers would produce their respective products here in the USA. Maybe we would have better QC?hwell:


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I own mostly MTH and wouldn't miss Lionel if they went under. Many years ago, when MTH was just starting as a competing manufacturer to Lionel, they started offering scale trains at a reasonable price and their Railking line offered the engines I couldn't afford from Lionel like the N&W J at an affordable price. That is when I started buying MTH. I've been pretty loyal to them ever since.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gosh, I don't want either to go under! Has it occurred to you folks that one of the reasons that both Lionel and MTH are pushing the envelope some is because of competition? If one of them were to go under, the other would have no competitive pressures, and you'd get less product for more money.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

It would bad for the hobby if either one went away. They keep each other in check. 

Virtually all of our engines are Lionel because of the *Legacy/TMCC* systems. Since Lee runs in a conventional mode, I can understand why his engine collection now heavily leans to MTH. 

I would like to address the passenger car market. Though K-Line has been gone a long time, I still consider them to be "king of the hill" with respect to passenger cars. The secondary market for them is robust and in my humble opinion, the new passenger car product from Lionel or MTH does not come close to their quality. Over the past several years, I have been very fortunate in transitioning the majority of our passenger cars to K-Line. 

Excellent topic, Lee.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I don't wish that Lionel goes under. I was just postulating that if one of the two companies goes under, I wouldn't miss Lionel products since I rarely buy them. I still miss K-line, Williams (before Bachman), Weaver, Right of Way, Custom Trains etc. All the manufacturers left their mark on the hobby and I wish they were still in business.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gosh, I don't want either to go under! Has it occurred to you folks that one of the reasons that both Lionel and MTH are pushing the envelope some is because of competition? If one of them were to go under, the other would have no competitive pressures, and you'd get less product for more money.


I totally agree. We need both and more! I am new to O as of the last month or so. I sort of assumed I'd be looking at nothing but Lionel. I was happy to discover MTH is so strong. I have been drawn to MTH engines almost exclusively. I did purchase the new Lionel Polar Express Bluetooth set for one of my tree loops. I am delighted with it. The only new rolling stock I've purchased is Menard's (the rest is used Lionel). Accessories have been exclusively MTH. For track I went with Lionel FasTrack. Transformers I have both. So for a newby, it has been fantastic to have both Lionel and MTH. I do find Lionel's new engines lacking compared to MTH.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

When I got back into the hobby in 2005 I to went with Lionel only because of memories of my youth. I became disenchanted with them and when NTH came out with there PS3 I started switching over to them. Right now I would estimate that my collection is 90% MTH.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> It would bad for the hobby if either one went away. They keep each other in check.
> 
> Virtually all of our engines are Lionel because of the *Legacy/TMCC* systems. Since Lee runs in a conventional mode, I can understand why his engine collection now heavily leans to MTH.
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised to see this response from Brian, because he's found a good combination with his Lionel Legacy/TMCC engines and K-Line passenger cars for his passenger-trains-only layout.

But most of us run freight trains along with passenger trains and I think the popular shift from Lionel to MTH engines in recent years is noteworthy.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gosh, I don't want either to go under! Has it occurred to you folks that one of the reasons that both Lionel and MTH are pushing the envelope some is because of competition? If one of them were to go under, the other would have no competitive pressures, and you'd get less product for more money.


Yes, that is one thing I am very thankful for. 

I remember when there was only one telephone company. That was lousy.


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## Agent027 (Sep 7, 2015)

The "big dog" on one particular person's layout is not really an accurate reflection on who is the big dog in the industry as a whole. Some people have a lot of 3rd Rail/Sunset products on their layout, but 3rd Rail is hardly a big player in the market.

A couple years at YORK, Mike Wolf said he has lots of new product ideas, but every time he suggests one, Andy tells him "you're going to put us deeper in the hole." When I heard him say this, I thought, that doesn't sound like MTH is making money.

When Mike did the live stream from China with Train World, he said "small production runs" a number of times. I don't know how you make profit with production runs of 100 locomotives? Mike has said any number of times, that the Railking line is the best selling of his US products. Yet it was the O gauge/scale market was soft in his words, that he expanded to other scales along with the European market.

MTH's match for the Lionel starter line was his "Rugged Rails" line, which has all but disappeared. Meaning there weren't sales, so he wasn't making money with it. The last large batch of Rugged Rails locomotives - some years ago - nearly all got cancelled.

And let's not forget that K-Line's $3.8 million dollar debt with Sanda Kan was the beginning of SK's difficulties. K-Line obviously had much more money going out the door than was coming in through sales. Many fell in love with K-Line products when they were being massively blown out: Good for the consumer, very bad for K-Line, and very bad for Sanda Kan.

Remember, Sanda Kan was making trains for everyone (save for MTH), and had a very good reputation for quality. When Kader rescued SK, and then announced they were dropping nearly all their customers (the companies we buy trains from), everyone was left scrambling to find a suitable production contractor. It took years for some of the companies to get back on their feet. And some companies have yet to fully recover... can anyone say Atlas. Much of their tooling was damaged during this process.

Lionel is still the BIG name in this 3-rail market. And I suspect the starter line is where Lionel still makes their money. Look at the fact that many Lionel traditional cars and then the new scale cars are often only $5-10 off in list price. Yet the scale cars are from newer tooling and absolutely cost more to produce. That says to me, that the traditional starter line up is helping to subsidize the high end scale product line.

Like Gunrunnerjohn said, it wouldn't be good for either Lionel or MTH to go under. And for that matter, that applies to the smaller companies. Look at the impact Menards has had on the hobby. They're hardly a big player compared to Lionel or MTH, and yet they've had a big influence, and I'm sure their train line has hurt sales for both MTH and Lionel.

As Jerry Calabrese explained years ago, about his reluctance to hire bona-fide train enthusiasts to work for Lionel, he said it was because they are often unable to put their own personal product desires second to what is good for the entire company. 

And that thought becomes increasingly obvious the more you read the various train forums. If it were up to some people, both Lionel and MTH would be out of business tomorrow. And NOT because they want them out of business, but because they can't place their own wants behind what is overall good for the companies and the hobby.


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

Woof! Woof!

Bowser

ps - It's obvious the big dog is HO.

TP


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

The trouble with being the biggest dog on the block, you are the one with the target on your back.

Dan


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Agent027 said:


> .... If it were up to some people, both Lionel and MTH would be out of business tomorrow. And NOT because they want them out of business, but because they can't place their own wants behind what is overall good for the companies and the hobby.


And then again, some of us just like to call things the way we see them... very objectively with no hidden agendas in play.

I have been very vocal (mostly on the other forum) against Lionel's pricing policies -- not because I like MTH more than Lionel, but simply because the Lionel of today has nothing to do with the Lionel that we all grew up with. Lionel's execs today are simply holding down the fort for awhile until the next group of executives comes along. And their pricing proves that. In a few short years, the price of a basic steam locomotive is now the price of what we paid for an articulated steamer (i.e., think Y6b) a couple of years ago. And for no real good reason... aside from they feel they can get away with it.

So while I believe competition is needed in the marketplace to keep things in check, I'm also very candid about my views when prices soar into the stratosphere just to pay for a company's inefficiencies and large overhead costs. There are folks here who feel it's OK for Lionel to push the pricing envelope continuously, if that will keep them around to publish next year's catalog and deliver more product. I'm not one of them though. I can honestly say that I'm very pleased with the trains on my current roster. So if Lionel continues pushing the price envelope, I don't care if they're around next year or not.

Atlas-O is another company pushing the pricing envelope to the point that I no longer jump at a product just because it looks cool. Among the "big three": Lionel, MTH, and Atlas... I think MTH is the one company that attempts to hold the line on pricing better than the others. And for that reason, I'm thankful they're still a big dog player in the market.

True... Lionel's NAME will always be the "big dog" among O-Gauge enthusiasts -- as well as casual observers of toy trains. But I think many of us have realized there's a big difference between the Lionel "name" of yesterday vs. today's Lionel company or products. Actually, a HUGE difference.

Case in point: My train room will have a huge custom backdrop with the name LIONEL on it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Lionel operating out of North Carolina these days. Rather it has EVERYTHING to do with the nostalgic times my Dad and Mom gave me my first Lionel train set in 1966.

While I much prefer MTH (the "company" today) over Lionel, (the "company" today)... I'm glad both are still around to keep this segment of the hobby moving forward. But if ANY supplier pushes prices unnecessarily into the stratosphere, I just don't care if they're around next year or not. It's not my job to ensure their future by buying products to keep them in business. It's THEIR job to make it irresistible for me to part with my money and buy their products. And these days, Lionel's pricing and overall strategy aren't doing it for me to the degree I find MTH's offerings are. In short, Lionel's "value equation" has been broken for me for quite some time. Depending upon how I feel any given day, I may weaken and make a Lionel purchase. But generally speaking, the MTH value proposition tends to call my name more these days.

And I'm sorry... I DO like the fact that MTH's CEO is a train guy at heart. There's something just "right" about that. And that's as objective as I can say it.

David


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> But generally speaking, the MTH value proposition tends to call my name more these days.
> 
> And I'm sorry... I DO like the fact that MTH's CEO is a train guy at heart. There's something just "right" about that. And that's as objective as I can say it.
> 
> David


I agree, and I also like the fact the MTH is led by a "train guy." It does show. Also, I think Menards train-stuff has some of that "I love toy trains" enthusiasm behind it. Makes a difference. 

The problem I've sensed with Lionel is that it sure looks like the people running the company are pure bean counters, and the development, what little is done, is being led by very inexperienced if bright young engineers who just haven't been into trains long enough to understand what the market (us) really wants.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Who’s the Big Dog now??

As a customer, I’M the BIG DOG now! As we all are. 

Without all of us model train enthusiasts the importers don’t exist. My layout is my yard and the Big Dog decides who gets to play in it. When the toy train companies make items that I like, doesn’t matter who, I’m likely to buy it. I’ll buy into the hype most of the time, but I do it with much more caution these days. (Ala the new Lionel Niagara).

Even though I have a boat load of model trains there’s a much bigger boat load that I passed over. So if any of the importers want to play in MY yard, the Big Dog will decide who and what.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Jumping into the deep end of the pond here, and late to the show. First, and foremost, I really like O gauge trains. Over the years, I have been a Lionel guy, and MTH guy, a tinplate guy, and back to a Lionel guy. Up and down with conventional, DCS and back to conventional.

My ability to operate trains plays a big part in what I own. As I view my current roster of motive power, I find Williams at the top with about 75% of what I own being Williams or Williams by Bachmann. Lionel falls in at about 20% and MTH at about 5%.

Rolling stock is about a 60 / 40 mix of passenger and freight. Williams represents 90% of my passenger fleet with Lionel the remaining 10%. My freight cars are comprised of 70% Menard's and Lionel and MTH making up the rest of the fleet of freight cars.

So, if there was a BIG DOG train manufacturer in my house it would probably be Williams or Williams/Bachmann. 

As always, swimming upstream, against the current, bucking the system, and working outside the normal range of acceptability.

But, and many have said, it's my railroad, and I enjoy acquiring it, running it, and figuring out how to store it. 

Have a happy Thanksgiving everyone.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

*The problem I've sensed with Lionel is that it sure looks like the people running the company are pure bean counters, and the development, what little is done, is being led by very inexperienced if bright young engineers who just haven't been into trains long enough to understand what the market (us) really wants.*

Lee, the past two majority owners of Lionel Electric Trains were Capitol Management Firms, Wellspring and Guggenheim. Those folks are bean counter supreme, super control of the purse strings. 

Bill


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

When MTH was starting out and I first saw their locos at Henning’s, I was amazed at the detail. Lionel didn’t have anything like them…at least not that I knew about. In the last eight years or so, with few exceptions, I have only bought MTH locos…mostly because they cost about 20% less than Lionel for an equal or near equal product. Since I have DCS, I’m not likely to buy any Lionel engines unless I see a great price on an LC+ steamer. As for rolling stock, I’ll buy any brand that looks good and is priced right. I’d hate to see any manufacture go under. More manufacturers make for more variety and more competition.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Interesting thread!! First I was shocked to see a couple say they wouldn't miss Lionel if they went away. Interesting observation if your a MTH fan but as stated already your pocketbook would miss them. I can't imagine a one horse race in this hobby.

I'm a casual train guy, my first set in 62. A few others along the way. No massive collection, no massive layout...

I'm small potatoes here. IMHO opinion if MTH and Lionel really wanted to open this market to people like myself there would be one operating system DCS/Legacy compatible. I have Legacy and will not buy DCS. I have to relearn Legacy every fall and I'm not patient enough to relearn two systems. 

TMCC and Legacy is what brought me back.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Agent027 said:


> . . . If it were up to some people, both Lionel and MTH would be out of business tomorrow. And NOT because they want them out of business, but because they can't place their own wants behind what is overall good for the companies and the hobby.


Well, yes. But I think we are all guilty of that to some degree. It comes from being a model railroad enthusiast in the first place.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2017)

Jeff T said:


> Interesting thread!! First I was shocked to see a couple say they wouldn't miss Lionel if they went away. Interesting observation if your a MTH fan but as stated already your pocketbook would miss them. I can't imagine a one horse race in this hobby.


Since I'm one of the guys that said I wouldn't miss Lionel I guess I should clarify. I don't want Lionel to go out of business. Competition is good for us consumers, plus there are lots of guys that love Lionel and I hope it stays in business for their sake. Maybe I should have said that I don't plan on buying anything from Lionel anytime soon. They don't make very much, if anything, that fits my interest and is in my price range.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

One of the things I love about this hobby is how my 'taste' change in models. I've bought a lot of Lionel, MTH, K-Line, and others that have met my modeling goals.

That being said, I'm not real happy with one manf in particular. QC, products not delivered as advertised, and multiple warranty repairs for the same issue...preordered items now going on two years will be my last order. However, I'd like the manf to stay in business for all the reasons others posted.

It would be nice if there was one command system in 3R-I've avoided buying locos from one manf because I don't want to mess with another command system. Often thought of ripping out all the circuit boards and replacing with DCC...

A few years back, I discovered 2R brass steam and passenger cars. WOW, did the flood gates open! And, DCC is sweet!

Enjoy your hobby and Thanksgiving!


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Country Joe said:


> Since I'm one of the guys that said I wouldn't miss Lionel I guess I should clarify. I don't want Lionel to go out of business. Competition is good for us consumers, plus there are lots of guys that love Lionel and I hope it stays in business for their sake. Maybe I should have said that I don't plan on buying anything from Lionel anytime soon. They don't make very much, if anything, that fits my interest and is in my price range.


Thanks!! Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2017)

At the moment I think MTH and Lionel are equally sized Dogs, but that means MTH has caught up and if they maintain their momentum, they'll eclipse Lionel in 10 years.

Whether it's accurate or not, my impression is that Lionel is focused on the high-end VL and entry level Ready-to-run. They seem to have never met a licensing deal that they didnt like: Christmas Vacation, Horror movie boxcars, John Deere everything, Frosty the snowman, Peanuts, etc. etc. They are leaving the middle ground unattended and MTH has exploited that market perfectly! 

I personally have plenty of stuff from both and hope they keep up their "Coke v. Pepsi" competition as long as I remain thirsty for new trains.

Emile


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

MTH and Lionel are equal. Lionel has issues with repairs and Locos arriving working. MTH has issues with getting parts at times. The real dog has to be Menards. Nothing comes broken and if it does CS takes care of you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JohnJr (Dec 2, 2015)

Please! I wish to purchase MTH, but when I see and experience the quality of a Legacy engine against a MTH engine, I always want a Legacy engine.

I dream of the day the MTH can produce the same type of quality, sound and performance as Legacy. When they do I will buy.

BTW, I constantly buy MTH passenger cars and box cars because they are second to none and at a good price.

Go MTH!
JohnJr


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

SDIV Tim said:


> MTH and Lionel are equal. Lionel has issues with repairs and Locos arriving working. MTH has issues with getting parts at times. The real dog has to be Menards. Nothing comes broken and if it does CS takes care of
> 
> 
> Well they certainly have rose to the top in traditional freight cars. I am guessing that their sales of freight cars over the past 2 years have put a dent in Railking and most certainly the way over priced Lionel traditional freight cars.
> ...


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## danpuckett (Dec 31, 2014)

I aspire toward MTH, but have not got there yet. The Lionchief+ has been very good for me. I just added a second LC+ switcher that runs and sounds great. The new LC+ with Bluetooth is likely my next step unless I buy a used MTH I saw in a local shop. I use a lot of Menard's cars plus some used Lionel. I would not call myself a serious modeler, but I do enjoy the trains.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Dan, stay true to your wants and desires, and you will be forever a happy camper. You have already reached nirvana. Kudos.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have both Legacy and DCS, so I buy what I like with either system. Yes, it would be nice if they all ran a common command system. Since that ain't happening anytime soon, I've learned to live with what we have. Many of my locomotives have been purchased on the used market and upgraded to command. The MTH Premier PS/1 models are a favorite for upgrades, they already come with a great smoke unit, I can drop in the command stuff and have a really nice locomotive.


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

I have only been in the hobby for less than 10 years and I have to say that it was year before I bought anything MTH. In the past few years however, it's been almost all MTH. I think they do capture that middle ground well that a lot of of us fall in between the entry level and high-end. Lionel is in a tough spot because they are responsible for bringing new people into the hobby through their entry-level sets and all manufacturers should be grateful for that. So they can't give up that market. And they can't give up the high-end market because they have built a huge following for that. Lionchief+ is a noble attempt for the middle market, but is still not capturing waves of attention.

I think most of us, deep down, WANT to see Lionel succeed and want Lionel to be our manufacturer of choice. But we are disheartened that at least for now, they are not. Most of that is driven by nostalgia, of course.

What can we do to help steer Lionel towards returning to its greatness? I suppose just continuing to give feedback and hopefully they are watching the forums closely and what MTH and Menards are doing to hopefully get Lionel back on track.

The other thing I find weird about MTH is the road names they produce for some of their products. I am in Minneapolis, and just last year they produced a Twin Cities version of their trolley and this year is the road name of the local commuter Amtrak-like train. O gauge model trains are NOT popular here. I wouldn't be surprised if there were less than 500 people into the hobby across the entire state of Minnesota. So why MTH makes super small runs like this is beyond me. I'm glad they do, but it cannot be profitable.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

So why MTH makes super small runs like this is beyond me. I'm glad they do, but it cannot be profitable.

It is only the expense of a paint mask. For example, MTH will run 1000 GP-7's for 5 different road names. 1 or 2 of the road names may be short lines with only 50 to 100 allotted for those, the remaining 800 to 900 will be for popular road names.

Bill


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

A quick thought about Menards.

Until they make powered units can they really be considered a player?

I know I'm the oddball at this party, but I don't need a 1,000 pcs of rolling stock.

Just a thought.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> A quick thought about Menards.
> 
> Until they make powered units can they really be considered a player?
> 
> ...


I don't need a 1,000 pcs. either but it sure is fun trying to get there.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> A quick thought about Menards.
> 
> Until they make powered units can they really be considered a player?
> 
> ...


Menards is doing just fine in the niche they have targeted. 

Thank goodness for companies like Menards, because they're giving us a glimpse into the "real" costs of getting stuff out of Asia. The rest is all overhead that comes as companies grow larger. Every company needs to turn a profit, but I'm not a big fan of throwing dollars at companies unnecessarily just so they can meet their executive payrolls. Nor should we be paying for inefficiencies that creep into the larger corporate picture.

The other nice thing about Menards is they don't "need" to turn a HUGE profit in their train division, since the overall company profits can sustain the "big picture". I'm sure they want the train division to hold its own weight, but the larger array of company products can support the overall G&A expenses just fine. So we as model train enthusiasts benefit from that tremendously. Of course, Lionel hates the fact that we now have a window into how ludicrous their pricing strategy is. Nobody selling a box car for $85 likes it when another company unveils the fact that $60 of that goes to a bloated expense base. 

David


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Spence said:


> I don't need a 1,000 pcs. either but it sure is fun trying to get there.


I have to see where you guys store all this stuff!!!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Jeff T said:


> I have to see where you guys store all this stuff!!!


BIG basement, 100% trains

Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

seayakbill said:


> So why MTH makes super small runs like this is beyond me. I'm glad they do, but it cannot be profitable.
> 
> It is only the expense of a paint mask. For example, MTH will run 1000 GP-7's for 5 different road names. 1 or 2 of the road names may be short lines with only 50 to 100 allotted for those, the remaining 800 to 900 will be for popular road names.
> 
> Bill


Actually, done right, it guarantees profits. Its basically what 3rd Rails does. Let's say you think that 500 people would buy a Lackamoola Railways SD-942A. You contract to make 200. Maybe that costs a lot more per unit than if you contracted for 500, but so what?. You price the 200 you had made at a good profit margin and you sell all 200 because while there aren't 500 people out there who want one (you would have lost your shirt) there are 300 who do. Yes, you could have made 300 and sold them and made more. But forget that. You made money, and the chance you are left with hundreds of unsold units is nil. Its a safe incremental way to do business.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jeff T said:


> A quick thought about Menards.
> 
> Until they make powered units can they really be considered a player?
> 
> ...


You don't need 1,000 locomotives either.  Menards doesn't have to have a full product line to make money, look at places like Woodland Scenics, they make a specific product mix, I suspect they make money.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> I have to see where you guys store all this stuff!!!


Jeff: closets (kids are all gone), basement, under furniture, in cupboards, empty boxes in attics above garage and above second floor. Any empty niche not claimed by my wife. If you come to Pittsburgh, I'll help you reach that 1000 piece goal, no problem.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2017)

Jeff T said:


> Thanks!! Have a Happy Thanksgiving!


Thanks Jeff. Happy Thanksgiving!



Jeff T said:


> A quick thought about Menards.
> 
> Until they make powered units can they really be considered a player?
> 
> ...


I think Menards is a player but not the big dog. They could eventually become a big dog and maybe the biggest. I also think they need to make locomotives to get into the big dog class.

I just checked and I have 7 locomotives and 55 cars, 48 freight and 7 passenger. I don't need 1000 cars either. I think 100 would be plenty. I want to have enough for variety. I like to change locos and cars every week or two for variety. If I have enough to do that I'm happy.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

My 3R "Big Dogs" would look something like this...

3rd Rail-Detail
Lionel-Legacy
MTH-Rolling stock
K Line-Al passenger cars

I can't isolate it to a single Big Dog at my house!


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Actually, done right, it guarantees profits. Its basically what 3rd Rails does. Let's say you think that 500 people would buy a Lackamoola Railways SD-942A. You contract to make 200. Maybe that costs a lot more per unit than if you contracted for 500, but so what?. You price the 200 you had made at a good profit margin and you sell all 200 because while there aren't 500 people out there who want one (you would have lost your shirt) there are 300 who do. Yes, you could have made 300 and sold them and made more. But forget that. You made money, and the chance you are left with hundreds of unsold units is nil. Its a safe incremental way to do business.


This is one of the trains I was talking about. https://mthtrains.com/20-20781-1

Clearly, not super attractive and not where most O-gauge interest lies. The only reason really to buy it is if you are local to where the line runs. And like I mentioned before, this is a part of the country with very little interest in O-gauge.

I just thought that the work involved with licensing the design and then actually making the design and configuring the manufacturing line to print that design, etc. would have some cost to it so not make a short run of them actually worth it.

But I really have no idea about how all of this is actually done.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Just received a Black Friday "special sale" email from Charlie Ro here. And you can see what dealers are targeting as their Lionel "sweet-spot" for the Christmas Holiday Season sales. Practically all entry-level goodies. No middle-ground, and definitely no high-end stuff... although that's not to say other dealers aren't offering good 15% discounts across the board. Just that I think many will focus on entry level volume in an attempt to (1) get some new blood into the hobby, (2) bolster their own sales numbers with low-end prices where folks might have an easier time reaching for their wallet.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

*But I really have no idea about how all of this is actually done.*

Well Mike Wolf started his electric train business 35 years ago in his Dad's garage and now has a pretty decent size operation in the USA and China I would guess that he has done all right for himself.

Bill


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I don’t really care who the big dog is. I like to think that I don’t need anything more. Menards keeps proving me wrong with buildings, rolling stock, and vehicles and Lionel with engines.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> I don’t really care who the big dog is. I like to think that I don’t need anything more. Menards keeps proving me wrong with buildings, rolling stock, and vehicles and Lionel with engines.


Forest, I can't count the number of times I have thought, well that is all the trains I will ever need. And a week, or a day later, I seem to stumble upon another "must have" item. And, if it is an engine or locomotive, and I don't have any matching cars to drag around behind it, well, guess what happens next? And on and on it goes. We are all suckers to our own needs, wants, desires for these simply addictive little toys.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

towdog said:


> ...What can we do to help steer Lionel towards returning to its greatness? I suppose just continuing to give feedback and hopefully they are watching the forums closely and what MTH and Menards are doing to hopefully get Lionel back on track...


Lionel is run by an investment firm. My opinion is the only thing they are watching closely is the bottom line.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

BobS said:


> Forest, I can't count the number of times I have thought, well that is all the trains I will ever need. And a week, or a day later, I seem to stumble upon another "must have" item. And, if it is an engine or locomotive, and I don't have any matching cars to drag around behind it, well, guess what happens next? And on and on it goes. We are all suckers to our own needs, wants, desires for these simply addictive little toys.


Well, I _TRY_ to hold to the practice of getting rid of an engine whenever I get a new one. No such policy on rolling stock unless passenger cars specific to an engine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have not been very good about getting rid of an engine when I get a new one, or for that matter, anything else!


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have not been very good about getting rid of an engine when I get a new one, or for that matter, anything else!


You and me both.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

The time to stop is when you have a model of all the locomotives the real railroads had.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Traindiesel said:


> The time to stop is when you have a model of all the locomotives the real railroads had.


Sure, but what about "back-ups"?


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

BobS said:


> Sure, but what about "back-ups"?


Don't forget double headed power.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

highvoltage said:


> Lionel is run by an investment firm. My opinion is the only thing they are watching closely is the bottom line.


Nailed it, you can bet that the bean counters at Guggenheim lets the crew at Lionel know what is expected in the bottom line. Miss it a few times and the portfolio manager says its time to send Lionel packing.

Bill


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Traindiesel said:


> The time to stop is when you have a model of all the locomotives the real railroads had.


Not just type but every cab number. NYC had 275 Hudsons. Still have to get a few more to fill the roster. 

Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Traindiesel said:


> The time to stop is when you have a model of all the locomotives the real railroads had.


Oh, no! No! No!! No!!!

There are all the interesting ones they planned but never built -gotta have some of those.

Top below: ATSF's planned Baldwin 6-4-4-4 Cab Forward Steamliner for the Super Chief


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

highvoltage said:


> Lionel is run by an investment firm. My opinion is the only thing they are watching closely is the bottom line.


Bingo!!! And their executives probably don't know an O-Gauge locomotive from a widget.  I have little if any respect for these clowns.

I guess the only consolation we have is our corner of the world isn't the only place this kind of stuff is happening. And we should be thankful Lionel hasn't been retired as a brand already.

Years ago, my wife was a big teddy-bear collector. And we often visited the Boyds Teddy Bear Outlet in Gettysburg whenever we went out to York in April/October each year. Within a few years of Boyds being purchased by Enesco, the new owners closed down the wonderful Gettysburg operation that Boyds had just built a few years earlier. And by 2014, Enesco announced the entire Boyds line was being retired several years after Enesco was purchased by Tinicum Capital Partners to become Enesco LLC. Then in 2015, Balmoral Funds, a private equity firm acquired Enesco LLC, which still carries the Gund and Dept 56 brands.

Sound familiar????  

True... investment monies are a key driver of business growth. But when former public companies get caught up in the closed-door world of private investment companies, all bets are off. And we start to experience the nonsense we're seeing at Lionel these days. But at least they're still producing trains, albeit we've noticed LOTS of changes brewing in the wind over at Lionel in recent years. Hopefully, they're not going the way of Boyds Bears. But anything is possible when bean-counters run the show.

David


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