# 22” or 24” for a 4X8



## Hotrainewbie (Feb 14, 2021)

I’m now getting down to business and making an ACTUAL layout instead of just a carpet layout in an old loft. I’m starting with a 4x8 sheet of wood and I can add on as much as I wish but for storage purposes I won’t go over 6x8. I want to be able to use this for a long time and that means as i progress in my modeling work, I will start to gain more 6 axle locomotives and longer cars. Therefore I don’t want to use my 18” curves. I need to decide if I want 22” or 24” curves for it. It will be Bachmann EZ track for an easier introduction to the actual part of creating a model railroad: scenery and track laying. What do you all recommend I do? Response needed: going to hobby store for possible material


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You can't use 24" track on a 4' width. 22" is max you can use


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You would be wise to go with the 6 foot width. That permits the widest
radious curves. You need those if you plan to run large steamers or
the new 6 wheel truck diesels. Running on the wide radius the
car ends stay more in line...they poke outward on a short radius
curve.

Son


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Well, the radius question has been answered mostly. So no comment here. 
However, I see you are planning to use Bachmann track products. Rather cheaply made product and, their turnouts are the worst in the industry. 
Were I you, Kato track is the way to go. Far superior design, radius and length options. 
Yes it costs more. “Buy once, Cry once.”


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I’m in complete agreement with using kato over bachman track. As far as the radius of your curves keep in mind any turnouts would need to match the largest radius curves for the same reliability. Your largest locomotive “should” be able to work on your smallest radius curve including turnouts. I found out the hard way years ago.


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## Hotrainewbie (Feb 14, 2021)

I understand that Bachmann track is definitely not the best track to use but I already have pieces of track for it. I just need a larger radius curve. I might have to buy a new switch just to see if it works better in the long run as all I have is inherited


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

Is it the kind with the grey road bed or the black road bed?


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## Hotrainewbie (Feb 14, 2021)

Jscullans said:


> Is it the kind with the grey road bed or the black road bed?


Black


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Black roadbed has steel rails, the grey roadbed has nickel-silver…..which is much better quality….


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

You may truthfully want to consider using a different track. Steel rails on ez track is going to be a battle. Not going to say it won’t work but it will be hard to keep the rails clean enough to have reliable running.


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## Hotrainewbie (Feb 14, 2021)

I’ve used this track for about a year and half now. No issues beside the switches but as long as my cars are heavy enough they go over alright


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Steel rail is a poor conductor compared to Nickel Silver rail. Oxidises much, much faster as has been said here. So, gray base is better than black. 
Regardless though, again the reliability/build quality of Bachmann track is less than adequate. The turnouts are functionally terrible, period. 
Sell off what you’ve inherited for whatever you can get for it. Bite the bullet and go with Kato. You will be glad you did. Or, go ahead with what you have. “Live and learn you will.”


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I gotta agree with the others on your choice of track. You're just asking for trouble using it. I understand you already own some. Pull the rails out and recycle both parts. That's really the best thing to do with steel Bachmann track. Track is really one of those places where you don't want to go cheap. The money you save today will be spent many times over in time and aggravation later.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Sometimes experience is the best teacher.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

As for radius size, the best advice is go as large as you can, even if you have to cut 3ft x 6in from the middle edge & splice onto the ends. The question shouldn’t be what the smallest you can get away with using, but what is the largest you can fit? 
An SD40 is about 70 scale feet long. I’ve run 86’ Hi-cubes on 22” radius and, to me, they didn’t look good over hanging. Those cars are about the length of passenger cars. Had a few derailments with them on curves too. 
So if there is any way you can fit 24s, you should.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Sometimes experience is the best teacher.


Ironically, enjoying a good experience is often the direct result of learning from a bad experience….


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hotrainewbie said:


> I’m now getting down to business and making an ACTUAL layout instead of just a carpet layout in an old loft. I’m starting with a 4x8 sheet of wood and I can add on as much as I wish but for storage purposes I won’t go over 6x8. I want to be able to use this for a long time and that means as i progress in my modeling work, I will start to gain more 6 axle locomotives and longer cars. Therefore I don’t want to use my 18” curves. I need to decide if I want 22” or 24” curves for it. It will be Bachmann EZ track for an easier introduction to the actual part of creating a model railroad: scenery and track laying. What do you all recommend I do? Response needed: going to hobby store for possible material


I always say if you plan on keeping it up, is to build with ALL the available space you have to donate.
Most start small then add on anyway, if you plan from that start, you have the table already in place to expand it in the future by just adding the track.

I am looking to make a 4x8 loop for running some HO.
I wonder what a 4x8 in Kato would cost? With no switches, just a loop?
I know it won't be cheap. 
Just a loop to run no scenery planned, I might add a N scale loop on the inside.
Anyone know where the best deal is for a 4x8 KATO HO loop of track, just curves and straights? $$$$$ wise?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Do they still make 5x9 sheets of plywood for pingpong tables? I haven't seen that size mentioned in awhile but it used to be a good size to easily fit in a dual loop of 24" and 26" curves with room to spare.

@Hotrainewbie -- do you need to stick with track that has plastic bases? There are a lot of advantages going with flex track such as being able to include easements leading into your curves and not being restricted to exact configurations limited by the available straights and curves. If you do decide to ditch the steel track, this is an option to be considered and will open up a range of better quality track from a number of different manufacturers.


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## Hotrainewbie (Feb 14, 2021)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Do they still make 5x9 sheets of plywood for pingpong tables? I haven't seen that size mentioned in awhile but it used to be a good size to easily fit in a dual loop of 24" and 26" curves with room to spare.
> 
> @Hotrainewbie -- do you need to stick with track that has plastic bases? There are a lot of advantages going with flex track such as being able to include easements leading into your curves and not being restricted to exact configurations limited by the available straights and curves. If you do decide to ditch the steel track, this is an option to be considered and will open up a range of better quality track from a number of different manufacturers.


As I am still new to everything, I would rather save the quality track for a higher quality layout in the future. I think it is best to use a lower quality track at a cheaper price for a beginner’s test layout


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So you don't think there is any risk that poor quality components will cause trains to operate poorly, which will frustrate you and cause you to give up the hobby before you ever get to that bigger, better layout? I've seen it happen dozens of times.

You know you can pull the track up and reuse it, right?

At the end of the day, it's your choice, but don't say you weren't warned.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

CTValleyRR said:


> So you don't think there is any risk that poor quality components will cause trains to operate poorly, which will frustrate you and cause you to give up the hobby before you ever get to that bigger, better layout? I've seen it happen dozens of times.
> 
> You know you can pull the track up and reuse it, right?
> 
> At the end of the day, it's your choice, but don't say you weren't warned.


I never worked flex track.
Would using all flex track make a 4 x 8 HO loop? 
Can you use it in the curve?
I just want a 4 x 8 loop.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

You’re joking, right? Can you use flex track in a curve? Really?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Old_Hobo said:


> You’re joking, right? Can you use flex track in a curve? Really?


I will guess by your answer that is a yes?????
how tight of a curve could you make? Can I use ALL flex to make a complete 4 x 8 loop?????
I know nothing about flex track.
Not kidding......HO it will be.
If you can answer, thanks.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Big Ed said:


> I will guess by your answer that is a yes?????
> how tight of a curve could you make? Can I use ALL flex to make a complete 4 x 8 loop?????
> I know nothing about flex track.
> Not kidding......HO it will be.
> If you can answer, thanks.



Yes you can use flex track for a 4x8 loop. They can't replace turnouts or crosses but they take the place of any straight or curve track.
Since your considering ho don't think of how tight because your trains will derail.


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## Hotrainewbie (Feb 14, 2021)

I have made up my mind. I will expand the board and add on 24” kato unitrack. I didn’t think this would get so much response but larger curves overwhelmingly won the debate


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Conductorkev said:


> Yes you can use flex track for a 4x8 loop. They can't replace turnouts or crosses but they take the place of any straight or curve track.
> Since your considering ho don't think of how tight because your trains will derail.


Thank you 
I was just wondering how tight does the track flex, not that I will lay it down tight.
Right now just looking to do a oval on a sheet of plywood.
I want to get some of my packed HO out to run.
I never got unto flex track, seems the way to go for the loop?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hotrainewbie said:


> I have made up my mind. I will expand the board and add on 24” kato unitrack. I didn’t think this would get so much response but larger curves overwhelmingly won the debate


Glad to be of help, 
I say if you have the room the larger the curve the better.........for any scale.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Big Ed said:


> Thank you
> I was just wondering how tight does the track flex, not that I will lay it down tight.


The best answer to that was given by someone on here years back: “I got it down to 6 inch radius once, but I was trying to break it!”
🤣😂😅


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Big Ed said:


> Thank you
> I was just wondering how tight does the track flex, not that I will lay it down tight.
> Right now just looking to do a oval on a sheet of plywood.
> I want to get some of my packed HO out to run.
> I never got unto flex track, seems the way to go for the loop?



Makes it easier for sure once you grt the hang of it.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Kato sells sets with ovals. I'd look on their website to find what I want then go on amazon to see if anyone has it cheaper.





HO Boxed Track Sets







www.katousa.com


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

This set looks like it’s exactly what you’re looking for….$97.00 on Kato’s web-site….


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

For Kato Unitrack...

2-270 curved pieces equal 19 1/4" radius
2-210 curved pieces equal 21 5/8" radius
2-220 curved pieces equal 24" radius
To fit on a 4x8 table top, you need the 2-210.
2-220 won't fit.

If you're going to use the 2-220 (24"), you need a surface that is WIDER THAN 48" (of course)...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

HV5 70 bucks on amazon
I will check out flex track some more.
thanks


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

If you are going yo go with flex track here are sone suggestions

I haven't used them but stay clear of the Bachmann as I have heard it's really bad.
I would also stay clear of the atlas BRASS flextrack. If you want atlas get the silver.
If you going on a track plan draw your center line and glue the center line of your trackbed (if using) along the line. After roadbed just lay your track right down the centerline using track nails and or just a dab of clear glue of some kind that can stick to both plastic and foam.

When you need to cut the flex tack I would suggest using a metal saw or a dremmel with a metal cutting wheel. I've found using snips unreliable since the free rail tends to slide around then u are cutting short. always when you cut make sure the other ed that both rails are flush against the previous piece.

I just bought atlas silver I believe for. 5.35$ per 2' section at local hobby store.
As for roadbed u can pick up a package of tge woodland scenic for like 12$ which would probably be enough for a small layout


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think we went off the rails somewhere here. There is a whole spectrum of products between steel Bachmann EZtrack and flex track. There is nothing wrong with using roadbed track, just as there is nothing wrong with using sectional, non-roadbed track. What most of us are objecting to is that the fact that steel track is greatly inferior to either brass or nickel-silver, and Bachmann turnouts are absolutely the worst of the worst. Add those together and you have a recipe for trouble. 

I prefer flex track because I generally don't want my layout to conform to the rigid geometry of sectional track pieces. But for someone building his first layout, I'd hesitate to recommend it, especially when they're pretty much limited to an oval by their choice of space.


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## DOOFUS (May 20, 2013)

Hotrainewbie said:


> I’m now getting down to business and making an ACTUAL layout instead of just a carpet layout in an old loft. I’m starting with a 4x8 sheet of wood and I can add on as much as I wish but for storage purposes I won’t go over 6x8. I want to be able to use this for a long time and that means as i progress in my modeling work, I will start to gain more 6 axle locomotives and longer cars. Therefore I don’t want to use my 18” curves. I need to decide if I want 22” or 24” curves for it. It will be Bachmann EZ track for an easier introduction to the actual part of creating a model railroad: scenery and track laying. What do you all recommend I do? Response needed: going to hobby store for possible material
> [/QUOTE


Use what you want, but you do have the option of mixing different Radius curves. sometimes something like a 24-18-18-24 radius will work better, and your loco's won't know the difference . Almost like having an easement into a 18 inch curve. You still have to watch the total angles the different track pieces create.


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Do they still make 5x9 sheets of plywood for pingpong tables? I haven't seen that size mentioned in awhile but it used to be a good size to easily fit in a dual loop of 24" and 26" curves with room to spare.
> 
> @Hotrainewbie -- do you need to stick with track that has plastic bases? There are a lot of advantages going with flex track such as being able to include easements leading into your curves and not being restricted to exact configurations limited by the available straights and curves. If you do decide to ditch the steel track, this is an option to be considered and will open up a range of better quality track from a number of different manufacturers.


I like the idea of using the higher quality track to start off with. Start with a simple layout that you will actually finish to the point of operation. You can then add on more trackage for a more complex layout as you learn. I personally model in N scale and use Kato Unitrack. As mentioned, flex track makes for smooth curves in a free form style but I made my easements with smaller pieces (15, maybe 30 degrees) of larger radius track to create my easements and it works well and looks very good. You just have to work out the proper geometry to make everything come together without binding in the the track joints. Not hard to do at all. Trial and error works just fine. Again, do not start off making a huge layout that will never be finished. I wanted to do that but wound up making a 30 inch by 64 inch N scale layout that I divided into sections with scenery so it looks like it leaves somewhere and arrives somewhere else. Believe me, the time taken on a small railroad will go a long way to provide the experience it takes to make a good looking railroad that operates very well with minimal frustrations. Realism goes a long way to making a small railroad look big without the added complexity. Listen to all the good advice on these pages from those with experience. You won't go wrong.
One additional thing, for all you N scalers out there, I used the Unitrack as I mentioned but I put HO scale cork roadbed underneath as a sub roadbed and it looks like a real first class railroad with perfectly groomed track. It also raises the track more so you can easily model drainage ditches.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I must have missed the email that there was more discussion here, sorry for the late reply... In regards to flex track radius, that will vary depending on the brand you use. I like Micro Engineering because it will loosely hold the shape you put it in. I also hand-lay turnouts and use the same brand rail to build those. I have pulled a piece of flex track into a 6" radius because I wanted to see if I could fit a loop on a small shelf. Yep, it bent to that size with no problem, and in fact is still sitting on the workbench that way. I think if you wanted something smaller you could cut the connecting tabs between the ties to allow more room for them to shift.

As for its use, basically I have turnouts on my layout, and everything else in between is flex track. There are zero fixed-track sections on anything I've built recently. I even have a 4x4 test loop that is dual-gauge (HO and HOn3), and this is all flex track. Get yourself a pair of good track cutters (about $20 but will last a very long time). Basically you connect one end of the flex track, then cut off the other end to line up to the next turnout or section. Save the bits you cut off, you'll use those for filler where the 3' lengths aren't quite enough. If you are going around a curve, the best bet is to solder one end of the flex track (usually in the straight leading up to the curve), then you can bring the track around to match the curve and the outside rail will slide back within the ties. Another trick (especially within curves) is to purposely slice one of the rails so you offset the joints. Leave 2-3 inches between the left and right rail joints and your curves will overall be smoother. You might have to cut out some plastic ties to leave room for the rail joiners, but I found basswood at the hobby shop which perfectly matches the size.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

I've seen B'mann steel rail and B'mann NS rail used to the effect of hundred feet, or so, and not noticed any difference in locomotive performance.

*Best to Worst – Which Metal is the Best Conductor of Electricity?*
(equally sized)

1Silver (Pure)2Copper (Pure)3Gold (Pure)4Aluminum5Zinc6Nickel7Brass8Bronze9Iron (Pure)10Platinum11Steel (Carbonized)12Lead (Pure)13Stainless Steel


My experience is that some of these B'mann turnouts have a guide rail that is not riveted down fully, and this allows the rail to float, allowing flanges to pick it. Some do, some don't. When I start adding in turnouts my plan is to test it immediately, and if it fails, return it at once, until I get one that works right.

I've never used Kato, in fact was unaware of it until people started shouting at me to use Kato over the B'mann, but too late. Also, I've not priced Kato, but I am sure it is whopping. Maybe that is reflective of its stellar quality, but there is a limit to how much I am going to funnel into any given project.


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