# Is this the only business model where a broken item isn't returned or exchanged??



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I posted this here rather than the other place hoping there will be an adult conversation.

My new Camelback arrived, ran 20 minutes and developed issues. Most any other item it would be returned, exchanged, no questions asked. Contacted Ro and they said they will get me an RA for Lionel. I would just prefer to send it back...

Right now I'm frustrated and the bloom is off the proverbial rose as they say. It didn't help that FedEx took 13 days to get something from Boston to Chicago.


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

I just got the GM&O PA A-A units and a Halloween General. Just put the general on the track, activated the horn and started going forward. It sparked a lot and it smoked but not in a good way. One of the PA units makes a rubbing noise and won't retain the legacy loco number. When it runs with the phone or universal remote, it stalls. This is the fourth engine in a row that needed to be returned. I cancelled my C-Liner pre order. No more Lionel engines for me.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I have a new appretiantion for things broken now after buying a Travel Trailer. So, yea , it sucks. But be warned, others people have it way worse.


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## CKCECB (Feb 22, 2013)

I think it really depends on the merchant and their relationship with the supplier, and also the manufacturers' policies. Some manufacturers state to contact them for resolution and to not return it to the merchant.

One of my other hobbies is archery. Some merchants will exchange a defective product and then deal with the manufacturer afterwards, while other merchants will contact the factory for you and await instruction.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It may be Ro’s business model but not all retailers. My LHS is Gargraves and they handle returns themselves.

Pete


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Retailers in the electric train business are all over the board in regards to defective product returns. Some would rather have Lionel handle the issue others if have another on hand will make an exchange. I would guess that as large as Ro is, supposedly the largest Lionel retailer, would have a replacement available to make the exchange. Poor CS on Ro's part if they do have extras.

Bill


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

You would think Ro has a few guys around that could challenge Lionel's repair techs but I can not speak to that. Locally we have only 2 shops and one had the technician pass away now 4 years ago, an old timer. Caboose Stop has Merlyn but he too is old and does not have the time. 

I don't believe I would have any of my broken stuff repaired. I might try myself, but I would not send it out.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, I think Charles Ro sends any repairs out. Before his untimely passing, Marty Fitzhenry used to do repairs for Charlie Ro. Finding repair techs for many shops is a challenge, I know we're always on the lookout at Henning's for guys to repair stuff. Too many broken trains, not enough repair people.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

With Lionel’s issues with QC over the last ten years or so. I can understand a dealers frustration in dealing with this. Sell a product and then 10-20% of buyers want to return defective product. Hard to make money that way. I don’t know Lionel’s policy on refunds of defective products from dealers. im sure dealers just don’t want to deal with it and just say all sales are finally and just send it back to Lionel. Buyer beware.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I'm not sure if this is the only business where this happens but it does happen and it's pretty awful in my opinion. I've dealt with Lionel returns to Charles Ro on three separate occasions. It was never easy. Ultimately, they accepted the returns but there was A LOT of heartache involved.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

I am new to Lionel and O gauge but normally PayPal or your credit card company will back you up if something is DOA (dead on arrival), which includes the cases described above. That’s not a warranty case but rather a case of you didn’t get what you ordered and therefore you should be able to send it back with no shipping cost to you and get your full money refunded. I pay with PayPal whenever possible.

Having said this, if you are not in a hurry and Lionel pays for the RA shipping and subsequent shipping back to you and thoroughly goes through the machine maybe it comes back better adjusted and tested than a regular replacement unit off the production line?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

hogges said:


> I am new to Lionel and O gauge but normally PayPal or your credit card company will back you up if something is DOA (dead on arrival), which includes the cases described above. That’s not a warranty case but rather a case of you didn’t get what you ordered and therefore you should be able to send it back with no shipping cost to you and get your full money refunded. I pay with PayPal whenever possible.


I never wanted to play that card and ultimately I didn't have to. But that's just another reason why these dealers shouldn't make it so difficult. The customer could always get Visa involved.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

hogges said:


> maybe it comes back better adjusted and tested than a regular replacement unit off the production line?


Clearly, you haven't seen some of the return horror stories.
I'm not saying it's a sure bet every time it is a horror story, but the point is the optimism it takes to think it might come back better than factory original is like winning the lottery.
Again, maybe on the 3rd, maybe the 4th trip through the return cycle "he fixes the cable".


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I got my CC company involved in an issue about 10 years ago. First the hobby shop would not take my calls or respond to emails. It went back and forth to Lionel three times and still wasn't right. Credit card company voided the transaction, neither Lionel or the hobby shop ever reached out again and I still have the engine. Not the way I like to do business as this hobby shop was out almost $1k over it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jeff T said:


> I got my CC company involved in an issue about 10 years ago. First the hobby shop would not take my calls or respond to emails. It went back and forth to Lionel three times and still wasn't right. Credit card company voided the transaction, neither Lionel or the hobby shop ever reached out again and I still have the engine. Not the way I like to do business as this hobby shop was out almost $1k over it.


Sometimes businesses do really stupid things, it happens. Some years ago, someone got my AMEX card number and ordered over $3,500 worth of stuff. About $600 was some expensive overseas shipping bills, never did understand what that was. The rest was two very nice Toshiba laptops. I came home one day and they were on the porch. I followed up with AMEX and they quickly reversed the charges and also send me a new card. They also told me that whoever ordered these tried to change the shipping address, but AMEX wouldn't allow it as they couldn't verify their identity. I'm guessing that was the play, order them, change the address to where they could get their hands on them, job done.

I then contacted the store, they first just asked me to just ship them back. I said "no dice", send me a return shipping label and an RMA number, I want this documented, and I'm not paying the shipping to ship these back. After all, I wasn't the one that allowed someone to hack your customer accounts and compromise my credit card! So they said they'd send me an email with the RMA and shipping label. Two weeks passed, no email. I called again, went through the same process, and got the same response. Two weeks passed, no email. I called third time, went through the same process, and got the same response. Two weeks passed, no email.

At that point, I just took the big box, stuck it in the back of a closet and figure when inventory time came around, someone would decide they wanted these laptops back and process the return. Almost a year later I ran across the box in the back of the closet, I had forgotten all about it. At that point, I decided the storage charges exceeded the value of the laptops, so my wife and daughter got new laptops.

I had great difficulty with how they could just ignore $3,000 worth of merchandise because they couldn't be bothered with processing the return! I was also surprised that nobody noticed when inventory time came around and they were short a couple of laptops. Maybe they had so much inventory shrinkage that this was small potatoes, I can't say.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

I like this forum where we can have adult conversations. Several times I was sidelined by that o gauge rag magazine who shall not be named,  because I complained about a product defect or performance. As their head publisher said there's three sides to a story: yours, theirs and something in the middle. So we will monitor your posting little a little kid (its our forum we make the (capricious) rules). Of course they are not going to allow any bad news that impacts the hand that feeds them (advertisers/vendors)
That said, unfortunately the O gauge market is relatively small and products specialized so alot of times I guess we have to return to manufacturer for repairs (and pray they have the parts). 
FWIW, I am still looking for someone to reprogram my MTH DCS TIU and handhelds. I know you can do it yourself but the last time I did, there were so many failures and mi-starts that after two days I finally got everything working, and said never again. 
My 2.5 cents worth.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Sometimes businesses do really stupid things, it happens. Some years ago, someone got my AMEX card number and ordered over $3,500 worth of stuff. About $600 was some expensive overseas shipping bills, never did understand what that was. The rest was two very nice Toshiba laptops. I came home one day and they were on the porch. I followed up with AMEX and they quickly reversed the charges and also send me a new card. They also told me that whoever ordered these tried to change the shipping address, but AMEX wouldn't allow it as they couldn't verify their identity. I'm guessing that was the play, order them, change the address to where they could get their hands on them, job done.
> 
> I then contacted the store, they first just asked me to just ship them back. I said "no dice", send me a return shipping label and an RMA number, I want this documented, and I'm not paying the shipping to ship these back. After all, I wasn't the one that allowed someone to hack your customer accounts and compromise my credit card! So they said they'd send me an email with the RMA and shipping label. Two weeks passed, no email. I called again, went through the same process, and got the same response. Two weeks passed, no email. I called third time, went through the same process, and got the same response. Two weeks passed, no email.
> 
> ...


The compony had insurance and it was paid out allready. If they got the stuff back ot would be a bonus, but they really dont care that much. Its built into the cost of doing buisness. I had this happen a few times and they just said keep it. It wasnt worth there time, as they allready got paid. Crazy, i know.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I am a bit worried about all of the locomotives I have purchased, many new, never run due to my moving around. But all are out of warranty now. 

Maybe these trains are getting TOO sophisticated, too many bells and whistles, literally and actually. Cost is high because buyers want more and more features. I am not in that camp, running conventional but even then Proto 3.0 and Lionel (and Atlas) have crew sounds and so on. 

All of these sophistications mean more computer boards and such, I guess, and fewer technicians. Lionel and Atlas should do extended warranties. If they could sell extended warranties, would you buy one? Would it be a revenue source for Lionel. The answers are likely YES. If 80% of the locomotives are fine, 20-25% are not, then I would buy an extended warranty and 2. Lionel would make money. 

But that's a crazy, logical idea from a consumer. Not likely to happen. I did not buy the last Lionel item I wanted due to cost - the E7 AA for $1,000. But if I had, and an extended warranty of 5 years was offered, for $200 - then I would buy the warranty. Now your total cost is $1200, not marginally different from $1000, and I have peace of mind for 5 years with the old axiom that if it doesn't break in the 1st year it is likely OK.


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## bw12 (Sep 21, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Sometimes businesses do really stupid things, it happens. Some years ago, someone got my AMEX card number and ordered over $3,500 worth of stuff. About $600 was some expensive overseas shipping bills, never did understand what that was. The rest was two very nice Toshiba laptops. I came home one day and they were on the porch. I followed up with AMEX and they quickly reversed the charges and also send me a new card. They also told me that whoever ordered these tried to change the shipping address, but AMEX wouldn't allow it as they couldn't verify their identity. I'm guessing that was the play, order them, change the address to where they could get their hands on them, job done.
> 
> I then contacted the store, they first just asked me to just ship them back. I said "no dice", send me a return shipping label and an RMA number, I want this documented, and I'm not paying the shipping to ship these back. After all, I wasn't the one that allowed someone to hack your customer accounts and compromise my credit card! So they said they'd send me an email with the RMA and shipping label. Two weeks passed, no email. I called again, went through the same process, and got the same response. Two weeks passed, no email. I called third time, went through the same process, and got the same response. Two weeks passed, no email.
> 
> ...


John
Assume you were probably considered "small potatoes" on the 2 items
Just curious if you could share who was "the store" referenced in your post?
At any rate, GREAT deal on the laptops!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

hogges said:


> .... Having said this, if you are not in a hurry and Lionel pays for the RA shipping and subsequent shipping back to you and thoroughly goes through the machine maybe it comes back better adjusted and tested than a regular replacement unit off the production line?


I don't have this issue (mostly prewar). But there's a smattering of posts where the returned item wasn't repaired, or the repair work create a new problem, et.. As an observer, it seems to me you should start to expect to do some repairs on new and relatively new items in this hobby. At the higher end, t's no so much "plug-and-play" anymore.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Aside from Ro, I think it's the only business model where 25% of the product has QA issues that no one inspects before dealer delivery. That's a guess. It's probably higher judging from the complaints I read here in the O scale forum.

I don't know why you all put up with that.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I was going to add it seems like between the factory and the consumer no one opens a box to test it. Maybe that's wrong.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

I collect air soft guns. They are replica weapons that actually fire 6mm plastic pellets. My collection has a number of high end guns that sell for a premium but almost always require tuning and often repairs to correct faulty quality control issues.

The hobby, in general, has evolved to the point where airsoft dealer‘s inventories are often made up of a large contingent of repair and upgrade parts. Guns used in airsoft competition wear out quickly and the user/owners have grown accustomed to doing their own repairs and upgrades as the warranty/repair portion of the airsoft gun industry is very cumbersome and in most cases, the limited number of certain guns produced, leads to a defective item that cannot be replaced. This leads the owner to repairing the gun themselves.

It is a situation that is generally accepted by those in the hobby. The scarcity of brick and mortar shops leads to massive online purchasing that does not lend itself to testing and quality assurance when shipping by the sellers. One may request a test for function, but I have had weapons that arrived with test result tags marked as passed, with vital parts loose in the packaging.

I am the same with my trains. I would rather do the repairs myself if I can get the parts. I simply don’t have the patience to deal with over burdened manufacture based repair services…

Tom


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

For what they charge you shouldn't have to repair them at all. They should be perfect out of the box. For the trains, not the airsoft.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Buy a camper, most have 15 to 30 quality control issues. If you want them fixed under warranty, leave the camper at the shop for 4 months or longer. Sometimes they even fix a few of the things that arw broke. And thats after you spent 40 to 100 k on a new unit. So, like above this is normal for this industry. Most live with the defects or fix them on there own time and dime.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

Jetguy said:


> Clearly, you haven't seen some of the return horror stories.
> I'm not saying it's a sure bet every time it is a horror story, but the point is the optimism it takes to think it might come back better than factory original is like winning the lottery.
> Again, maybe on the 3rd, maybe the 4th trip through the return cycle "he fixes the cable".
> View attachment 573400


Read the thread you linked. Ouch! Maybe I should go back to HO Märklin when I am ready to build a real layout, after my current O gauge ceiling track project.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> I am a bit worried about all of the locomotives I have purchased, many new, never run due to my moving around. But all are out of warranty now.


While a lot of my stuff lived in the boxes for quite a spell when I was in transition, I never fail to open a new item and give it a run. While they can still fail, I don't want to have a dead one that I was too lazy to test when it was new.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jetguy said:


> Clearly, you haven't seen some of the return horror stories.


If you recall, I correctly identified the issue as RCMC programming issues when you brought up the behavior. It's pretty amazing that Lionel couldn't figure it out in multiple trips!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Most of my train life I was buying HO brass. Much like Toms experience with airsoft as well as my experience with Britsh motorcycles, repair upon arrival is expected and if you don’t learn to fix them yourself you will go broke having others do it for you. I can’t recall ever receiving a new brass engine that ran correctly out of the box or did not require some cosmetic tweaking.

Pete


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

That's crazy to buy something that is broken or inoperable and have to fix a brand new item out of the box.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Unfortunately, it is the nature of the business now. The only cure is to not buy anything.

I collected Roco and other German trains and they were always flawless. It’s too bad the old “European“ approach to train production and sales doesn’t exist with Lionel or MTH. But with the advent of internet purchasing and production in a far away land, quality control will continue to be an issue and likely spread to most facets of model railroading, no matter what company’s name is on the box…

If one is to participate in the hobby in the future, lack of perfection will be something we will have to endure and overcome.

Tom


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you recall, I correctly identified the issue as RCMC programming issues when you brought up the behavior. It's pretty amazing that Lionel couldn't figure it out in multiple trips!


That's very poor management and operational setup on their end. It sounds like they are telling their technicians to just swap parts to try and fix stuff, without anyone doing much in the line of analytical thinking and most importantly with no feedback path to manufacturing or engineering. And to add insult to injury, from your experience it sounds like they are happy to send out pre-canned letters saying that certain things were done when in fact they were not. Such a company structure doesn't bode well for continuous improvement.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Krieglok said:


> Unfortunately, it is the nature of the business now. The only cure is to not buy anything.
> 
> I collected Roco and other German trains and they were always flawless. It’s too bad the old “European“ approach to train production and sales doesn’t exist with Lionel or MTH. But with the advent of internet purchasing and production in a far away land, quality control will continue to be an issue and likely spread to most facets of model railroading, no matter what company’s name is on the box…
> 
> ...


I still do, and they _are_ perfect out of the box.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> I still do, and they _are_ perfect out of the box.


I understand that. But unfortunately not everyone is a collector has the same interest in certain trains that just happen to be 100% perfect out of the box. We are aware of the situations and work to make them better. Sure we want perfection, and we get it most of the time, but working on/with issues isn’t a deal breaker for me.

Total abstinence of products which interest us isn’t really the answer for most of us.

Tom


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I agree. But I also think that if modelers and hobbyists continue to buy these defective products, they will keep producing them flaws and all, because they know you will put up with an inferior product and buy them anyway.

Unfortunately for the O scale hobby, there are not many manufacturers from which to buy product. Lionel is a monopoly of sorts with little competition and doesn't care in what condition their product goes out the door because they know you have little choice.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

I have the solution. The next time you see Dave, Ryan, and the crew at the big train show, you show them support with the big "L".










You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick. 
And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both pretty angry. 
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking up, showing Ryan and crew *the big "L"*. *They may think it's an organization.* 
And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking up, getting in their face showing *the big "L"* and walking off. 
*And friends they may thinks it's a movement.*
























Because clearly, other methods are not working. Again, Ryan has been called out for Lionel paint color problems QC problems, design problems, and every show, every time we get this how much Lionel is doing to correct the issue, get samples before production, and every time just after that a new product arrives totally messed up. It's costing them money in returns and repairs and that's not getting the change made. So it's flat out going to take some public and rather uncomfortable interaction with the leadership to get the point across.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You should be making that point with your money. Clearly, speaking to them about the problems is solving nothing.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Sounds like a plan Jet. We should all get up off the group W bench and protest but its been tried in the past and found to fall on deaf ears.
I have been vaccinated against poor quality control by the high cost of entry. As long as they just keep offering the same items with simple electronic changes at three to four times what previous releases can be had for I will just watch.

Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

My experience is different. Dozens of locos and literally hundreds of rolling stock over the last 20 years with maybe two out of the box failures. I think the failure rate is more like 1-5% than 10-20%. Most from a local dealer and Ro. No problems with any needed exchange/replacements, but hard to extrapolate from a couple of examples.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> While a lot of my stuff lived in the boxes for quite a spell when I was in transition, I never fail to open a new item and give it a run. While they can still fail, I don't want to have a dead one that I was too lazy to test when it was new.


I could never see the point in buying something and NEVER even opening the box to inspect it.
But I guess to each his own.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Spoke with Ro today as they have yet to provide a RA to Lionel. Choices were return the unit for a credit or wait for the RA. No return possible...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Jeff T said:


> Spoke with Ro today as they have yet to provide a RA to Lionel. Choices were return the unit for a credit or wait for the RA. No return possible...


I would want my money back, that is not an option?
Unless you do a lot of business with them, then I guess credit is OK.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

neilblumberg said:


> My experience is different. Dozens of locos and literally hundreds of rolling stock over the last 20 years with maybe two out of the box failures. I think the failure rate is more like 1-5% than 10-20%. Most from a local dealer and Ro. No problems with any needed exchange/replacements, but hard to extrapolate from a couple of examples.


This is a good point you have made.

I have had two new engines, in five years, arrive damaged. I repaired them myself. I have had, perhaps one or two engines (MTH or Lionel) delivered that were not functioning properly. Again, no returns as I was able to fix them myself, often with the help of fellow forum members here at MTF.

Much of my collection is used equipment I have purchased. Usually there are some issues, but again, I don’t mind working on them. That is part of the fun of having this scale. It is very hands on and it is rewarding to repair something that was not 100% functional and make it right.

Statistically speaking, the lemon rate is pretty low for mechanical and damage issues. Paint color is another subject in itself.

Tom


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I agree with the post a few back. It's the business model which appears to shift as much risk as possible to you the consumer. It's also based upon the idea that the fix as far they are concerned is next catalogs pre order.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

That will also likely need a fix of its own.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"Choices were return the unit for a credit or wait for the RA. No return possible..."

Don't know for sure, but that's probably a violation of Massachusetts state law. It's pretty rare for a state to allow vendors to sell defective merchandise that isn't eligible for a refund. If that's what you want, I'd do a quick google search and quote the state consumer protection law to them. I've had nothing but great experiences with Ro, by the way, and if this is their new policy, we may be having words .


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## KBeyer (Jun 29, 2020)

The issue of electronics failure past the warranty, or electronics failure out of the box is what keeps me from buying more than a few "must have" modern engines. I have two LC and 4 CC engines and that's it; the rest is post-war and some MPC Lionel (over 80). The two LC engines were new, and one developed an issue a few months after purchase, so it went to Lionel for repair, took a couple of months. I had 6 CC engines, but two had issues (one right out of the box), so that one went back. The other developed an issue after return was no longer an option. I never was able to get that one working even with a new board, so I sold it on e-bay as not fully working. So, from my limited sample, not the best track record. There are other engines I'd like to have with RS 5 and/or legacy, but it's just too risky in my book, since this is not the bulk of what I collect.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Severn said:


> I agree with the post a few back. It's the business model which appears to shift as much risk as possible to you the consumer. It's also based upon the idea that the fix as far they are concerned is next catalogs pre order.


If you think Lionel's policies are bad, wait until you see the new MTH warranty, or rather the lack of warranty! There seems to be a general movement to shift the risk to the consumer and minimize the exposure of the manufacturer. That's what all the "build to order" stuff is all about, no risk to the manufacturer. The MTH "special run" stampede is the same idea, a single seller commissions a custom run that only they will sell. They have to commit to and pay for a specific number of items for the special run to happen. Lionel has the same sort of deal, I have the Nicholas Smith Strasburg 10-wheeler and the METCA PRR 10-wheeler that were both special runs.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

In the old days, there was a hobby shop in virtually every decent sized town. Then, big department stores started under-cutting prices that hobby shops had to sell for in order to stay in business. Then, discount mail-order stores started under-cutting prices that big department stores and brick & mortar hobby stores needed to survive. Now, the discount mail-order outfits, along with the so-called "manufacturers", are having to dispense with QC in order to sell product in order to stay 'competitive' (i.e., not go under) in order to survive.

With consumers wanting to get the best possible bang for the least possible cost year after year after year, it's no wonder that we're now having to assume the quality (i.e., lack there of) risk in our products.

Wonder how much longer it will be until we have to start assembling our own kits in order to assure quality assembly and proper operation? 

Not sure about others, but personally, I'd be okay with that  . We all get what we're willing to pay for.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

You forgot to mention how buying on-line has affected the scene….you stopped at mail-order, but on-line buying killed the LHS the most….


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Big Ed said:


> I would want my money back, that is not an option?
> Unless you do a lot of business with them, then I guess credit is OK.


I typically do not buy new stuff due to the numerous issues Lionel has had. I bought one last year and now one this. I guess I'm not a big customer.



neilblumberg said:


> "Choices were return the unit for a credit or wait for the RA. No return possible..."
> 
> Don't know for sure, but that's probably a violation of Massachusetts state law. It's pretty rare for a state to allow vendors to sell defective merchandise that isn't eligible for a refund. If that's what you want, I'd do a quick google search and quote the state consumer protection law to them. I've had nothing but great experiences with Ro, by the way, and if this is their new policy, we may be having words .


Thanks for the heads up, but in my case it seems probably more trouble than its worth...


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Old_Hobo said:


> You forgot to mention how buying on-line has affected the scene….you stopped at mail-order, but on-line buying killed the LHS the most….


I think the problem would be same regardless of retailer (LHS, Dept. Store or online). The brick and mortar store need to order a quantity of stock, especially for the holiday season. What would happen if some 335 of products were being returned within 30 days. Either the retailers would force the mfg. to make them whole or absorb the loss themselves. Best case, they get their wholesale cost refunded but still have extra manpower costs for processing and loss of the profits. Worst case they absorb all the costs. Perhaps they cross the mfg. off their supplier list.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Old_Hobo said:


> You forgot to mention how buying on-line has affected the scene….you stopped at mail-order, but on-line buying killed the LHS the most….


Well, yeah, that's what I meant. Nowadays, mail order, on-line, what's the difference? All the same, really.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Well it's a low volume market that's massively over saturated as it is. The people that tell other people to make a model for their brand simply have no idea what paint job, doodad or other feature is "it" this year... So they "ask" you the customer... 

Now a way out of it would be that on some agreed upon day and time. We all empty all our train boxes out into a huge pile outside... And light the thing on fire.

Next day ... demand is back and the skies the limit again!


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Most of my locomotives and rolling stock were purchased second hand. Some had been shelf queens and not operated before I acquired them. Almost all of them ran like champs right out of the box. Since I got into 1:48 three rail in 2016, I've bought a handful of MTH and Lionel locomotives new. About 50% of them had issues out of the box. With new steam locomotives going for about $1,200 or more, I'm sorely disappointed with this level of quality. The MTH Premier Big Boy I bought last year still has a squeak since new I can't find. The Lionel Legacy Pacific I got yesterday had the smoke fan start squealing within the first minute of operation. This was after I unboxed it and found a number board broken off and a tender hatch that won't close all the way.

At this point for the reasons mentioned above and some other complaints with new offerings, I don't think I will be spending money on a new locomotive unless I can put eyes on it and operate it before handing over my money.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Mixed Freight said:


> In the old days, there was a hobby shop in virtually every decent sized town. Then, big department stores started under-cutting prices that hobby shops had to sell for in order to stay in business. Then, discount mail-order stores started under-cutting prices that big department stores and brick & mortar hobby stores needed to survive. Now, the discount mail-order outfits, along with the so-called "manufacturers", are having to dispense with QC in order to sell product in order to stay 'competitive' (i.e., not go under) in order to survive.
> 
> With consumers wanting to get the best possible bang for the least possible cost year after year after year, it's no wonder that we're now having to assume the quality (i.e., lack there of) risk in our products.
> 
> ...


And that is why European locomotives are still so expensive. They still do the QA and assume the risk of a bad product. EU regulations see to that partially, and the manufacturer's reputation sees to it as well. Reputation and prestige is still a big thing with European products, but no more so than that in the Modellbahn business.

I don't mind paying the prices they ask because I know I will have a 100% perfectly running locomotive right out of the box when it arrives at my doorstep.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When I was much younger, *Made in USA* was a mark of pride, not so much anymore. Well, not much is made here, I guess that's why!


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When I was much younger, *Made in USA* was a mark of pride, not so much anymore. Well, not much is made here, I guess that's why!


Now we are elated if a train says made in Taiwan, Hong Kong or South Korea!

Tom


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When I was much younger, *Made in USA* was a mark of pride, not so much anymore. Well, not much is made here, I guess that's why!


S&K tools are made in PA now after a company merger. I hope they "still make them like they used to" given my story below.

In college, I had Oldsmobile Tornado. Somehow a wheel lug nut was cross threaded. I could not get it off with a tire iron. So I pulled out my S&K rachet set. One of the spark plug sockets fit the lug. I proceeded to bang the rachet with a maul. The socket cracked but didn't break. I kept hitting it. With each hit I could see the socket crack open and close but it still didn't break. Eventually the lug nut came off and all was repaired.

Fast forward 40 years (yes, 4 decades later). Same lug nut issue with my girlfriend's minivan. This time I put 3' pipe over the rachet handle. The resulting torque sheared the square head off the face of the rachet wrench. But S&K has a lifetime warranty. So I called them. A few days later a new wrench arrived on my doorstep. Exactly the same tool as I had, same handle, same number - #45170. But it's face and square was made of hardened steel whereas the original tool's face and square was same steel as the handle. S&K must have some abusive users for them to make the upgrade  

Doubtful Lionel will ever match that.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When I was much younger, *Made in USA* was a mark of pride, not so much anymore. Well, not much is made here, I guess that's why!


I think it is still a source of pride, but unfortunately become more rare. To be honest, I think part of the blame for manufacturing being sent offshore lies at our own feet. I took a trip to Sweden back in 2014 and stayed with a family there. I remember clearly a conversation I was having about my host about the difference in the quality of product Europeans buy versus what Americans buy. My host stated Americans only focus on the lowest price. He said unlike Americans, the Swedish don't go shopping for the lowest price as the deciding factor in a purchase. My host said they were willing to pay more if it meant they were getting a better product. 

I think as a country we often will only buy the cheapest item regardless of it's quality. As such, we've driven companies to find ways to drive the price down on manufacturing (cheaper offshore labor and production) in order for them to stay competitive. Another part of the equation I think is the drive to boost investor stock dividends in the short run instead of thinking long term strategically about the quality of the product and consumer satisfaction.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Millstonemike said:


> S&K tools are made in PA now after a company merger. I hope they "still make them like they used to" given my story below.
> 
> In college, I had Oldsmobile Tornado. Somehow a wheel lug nut was cross threaded. I could not get it off with a tire iron. So I pulled out my S&K rachet set. One of the spark plug sockets fit the lug. I proceeded to bang the rachet with a maul. The socket cracked but didn't break. I kept hitting it. With each hit I could see the socket crack open and close but it still didn't break. Eventually the lug nut came off and all was repaired.
> 
> ...


Similar experiance with Snap On. In the early ‘70s my neighbor across the street sold Snap On via his truck. He was also into HO and had me paint a brass shay for him. He didn‘t give me tools for free but I did get them at discount so bought a 3/8” ratchet set among other things. Fast forward to last year and the toothed ratchet mechanism had broke from years of abuse. I contacted Snap On with the serial and model number and in a few days had the parts to make the repair No cost to me.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Craftsman tools also used to be very nice tools with a lifetime warranty. I used that warranty a couple of times, but I still have some 50 year old Craftsman tools. I finally sold the Craftsman Radial Arm Saw that I had since the 70's due to lack of room to use it in my new house. It was built like a tank, and worked as well when I sold it as when I bought it.

I've looked that the crap that has the Craftsman name on it now, what a contrast!


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Craftsman tools also used to be very nice tools with a lifetime warranty. I used that warranty a couple of times, but I still have some 50 year old Craftsman tools. I finally sold the Craftsman Radial Arm Saw that I had since the 70's due to lack of room to use it in my new house. It was built like a tank, and worked as well when I sold it as when I bought it.
> 
> I've looked that the crap that has the Craftsman name on it now, what a contrast!



I recently checked and they still have that warranty. Lowes and ACE hardware have both told me they honor that warranty on Craftsman hand tools. But I agree with you, they're not made like they used to be.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I've used the Craftsman warranty in local Sears store's "tool" department . I fondly remember a sales rep handing me a new tool and subsequently putting my broken one in a mechanic's chest draw ... along with the other warranty returns Swift, no return processing and subsequent checkout line, It doesn't get better than that


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## Bogomips622 (Nov 14, 2021)

Millstonemike said:


> I don't have this issue (mostly prewar). But there's a smattering of posts where the returned item wasn't repaired, or the repair work create a new problem, et.. As an observer, it seems to me you should start to expect to do some repairs on new and relatively new items in this hobby. At the higher end, t's no so much "plug-and-play" anymore.


Makes me sleep better knowing that I have locomotives that are repairable/sevicable by me and I didnt spend alot of money. My new MTH that I stole at auction runs great out of the box and with the CW I bought I have a bell and whistle. When I leave it in neutral the crew talks and such. However, when my 6 year old grand daughter came over and enjoyed running the trains that was worth more than anything. I would much prefer to use AMEX over PayPal if I was to make a big purchase.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

We make certain higher end things. I'll take a guess at one. Jet engines. It's possibly true but I'm just using it to illustrate the rest of this.

We make good ones. But they are very pricey and you need a certain amount of skilled labor to do it. That labor is pricey too but in this case jet engine prices easily covers it and all the various benefits that kind of worker expects and has traditionally received.

Meanwhile all the unskilled or slightly skilled manufacturing has been shipped off. To places like china which have gobs of excess no skill labor to throw at everything. (It used to Japan if anyone remembers)

This is the kind of stuff that anyone off the street just about could be easily trained to do. Like operating a sprayer to paint model train assemblies in a booth.

Except here in construction which we don't in general make in a factory which has a lot of low skilled labor jobs.even what once took some skill has been eroded there. I think about trusses and various other construction components. But it doesn't take much skill to put these up as I have done it and I didn't know what I was doing, for example.

Of course there's not a perfect delineation in our economy, some low skill stuff is made here, and some complicated high skill things we import too.

To me things like model trains are simply "never" going to be made here again. Still we could make them dramatically closer to home that's say just a short plane ride away to address an qc issue, and without all the freaky politics of the host country. I'm talking latin america. Well probably mexico because actually Latin America can be a little freaky depending on the country. But honestly they'd have to want it and clean up as well and get a lot of folks making motors and PCBs and paint and packaging near each other.

It's probably not happening honestly...

But eventually labor rates in China might push this kind of thing elsewhere though, Vietnam is often mentioned... But I'm just parroting that one...

(I should probably add at least here in the us we've obviously made a mess of this exodus of many kinds of manufacturing without thinking it thru. But that's a I dunno 50+ yr story in the making now)


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