# New Lay out but I see troubles



## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I sometimes think i have gone about it all wrong but here is my thoughts. I want a continuous run but in reality trains do not go in circles they are a back and forth operation so I could live with the latter,where the track will go over the lower level they will be close together and I am thinking of a tunnel which I think will give the illusion of more space. I want a lot of switching as I wish to follow an industrial theme. Now that I have all confused what do you think also I will not be running steam.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

looks good to me... whats troubling you?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

it's pretty close to the same size and shape of my layout, worked out fine to me


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

How do I transition into the lower part would you suggeat wood or foam and can I go with a 3% grade or is that to much for traction?


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

The absolute "carved in stone" #1 most important thing in MRR is...

WHAT YOU WANT!

(welcome to the asylum BTW!)

I'm guessing HO scale? If so and you could "squeeze" it out to 40 inches at the ends you could have both! It's enough to turn Diesels with an 18" curve for a continuous running loop, most Diesels can handle 18"'s and you will still have room for sidings and a bit of yard and some industries for your point to point action! SAWEET! I'm NO "expert" but I've been doing a little testing and 3% should be no trouble at all for most Diesels. Pictures of progress please.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

Jimganley said:


> How do I transition into the lower part would you suggeat wood or foam and can I go with a 3% grade or is that to much for traction?


I'd recommend using the foam risers woodland scenic makes. they sort of take the guess work out of it.

As for grades, i don't have any my self but reading other's posts it seems like 2% is the max for most people. depends on what you plan on using for pulling power, too.. some steam may have trouble with it, but a pair of 12 axle beasts could probably do it. oh, my 12 axle diesels wont take an 18" curve without derailing.

these thingys:


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Wood land is to rich for my blood guess I will just wing it, I plan on keeping most of the layout flat I am not a landscaper per se.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I used 3/8 plywood flat, and all elevations with HDfoam, made a foam cutter to do grades, etc ... on mine I stayed to a maximum of about 2% grade and 20" radius


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

wvgca said:


> I used 3/8 plywood flat, and all elevations with HDfoam, made a foam cutter to do grades, etc ... on mine I stayed to a maximum of about 2% grade and 20" radius


Could you expand on "a foam cutter to do grades" ?

Not sure what you mean.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

This video is pretty much how i would do it on the cheap. 

Just ignore the math relevant to his scale.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

santafealltheway said:


> Could you expand on "a foam cutter to do grades" ?
> 
> Not sure what you mean.


I made a hot wire foam cutting table, very low cost ..and with two inch foam, I used a couple of metal yardsticks for guides to get the grade that I wanted, and ran it through the cutter ... two percent is just under 3/4" difference in three feet ..for curves I used the same cutter to make notches in the sides of the foam so that it would easily follow the curve


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jim

You can have a fantastic railroad in that space. To be
able to take advantage of all that bench work I'd 
suggest a single track main line with several passing
sidings. (I place my passenger stations on these).
That way you can have the wide curves needed for
the bigger equipment.

You could also create 2 cities one at each end of the
U bench work.

I don't have any large industries on my layout. But it does
have a fair number of smaller businesses that used
rail freight in my 50s 60s era layout. I also have
two diesel loco service areas. These receive tank
cars for fuel and hoppers for sand. One busy 
spot is my Less than Carload freight house. These
no longer exist but were located in every small town
in days gone by. 

It is a large layout. You would want to plan for
either wireless hand held controllers or jacks around
the fascia to plug in wired controllers.

Along the same lines, plan on having turnout control
panels near the area they control. With switching,
you'll necessarily need to be near the action to
uncouple cars. Those 'local' panels also keep the
length of wires down.

Looking forward to your progress.

Don


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Well my son and his wife stopped over with a gift for the lay out they picked it up at Menards



























Below is a video of the bldg it is so cool.

http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/wisconsinjimmy/media/DSCF3383_zpslezqkkbw.mp4.html


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

The most difficult part of grades that I have encountered is getting up off the flat surface most of us have to start with be it foam or wood. WS risers and starters are a bit pricey bit an EXCELLENT product. Being dirt poor I was searching for an alternative and found ordinary cedar shims to be between 2-3% just right to get you up 1/4-1/2 inch or so to use any material you prefer to lay as roadbed on your grades. By the handful at the big box store HD and such for just a couple bucks! 

I found an excellent grade calculator at

Railroad Model Buildings- Free Track Grade Calculator http://www.modelbuildings.org/free-track-grade-calculator.html
Happy Rolling!


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

If you have a tabletop layout, the "cookie cutter" method works great for grade change and it actually makes a perfect easement.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

How do you get the ends of the flex track to come together square in a curve (see photo). Should I solder the rail joiners to one set of track to get rid of some movement?


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Yes, you will need to solder them together in straight line, before you put them on the table.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Let me make sure I got this right, I will need to join the two 36" sections together then solder in other words I will have a 72" section correct?


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Jimganley said:


> Let me make sure I got this right, I will need to join the two 36" sections together then solder in other words I will have a 72" section correct?


Yes, you got it.

Mark


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

That is one way to do it but now you have 72" of track to attach to the previous section. You can place the fixed rail in a joiner and then curve the track and pin it close to perfect and then cut the sliding rail. Only remove one tie from each end of the flex. Everyone has their own method.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Just came across this on you tube and think I will give it a go and it works fine on a helix.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Very interesting but I see a problem. Thinking microscopically, when he cut the tiny locking tabs he failed to remove the plastic locator plates as well. With that height and the rail joiner thickness, I assume you would have a hump at every joint. Could be only 1/64-1/32nd but it would be there. That should get your trains rocking!


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Yes, I can see your point about sliding the rail joiner, increasing thickness, without removing the plastic locator. That is why I want to join the two flex tracks together without using any rail joiner. I had done on mine. It seem to be doable but have to be careful, laying it down or it would end up with a kink, after bending the track.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I measured one of my joiners and they are 0.12mm, .0040in, 1/28in.
That is pretty thin and the tie is 1/16" on the pad and the same on the tie I am going to give it a go and see what happens although I do not think I will see any appreciable effect.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Excellent, go for it and post pictures please!


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I have the mainline where I think I want it have a few more pieces of track to connect and adjust the radius of the curves see pictures




































I am not sure if I will use the cork roadbed just seems to be an extra step and being I am trying for an industrial look where most of the track is low at least that is what I am seeing. I even have my doubts about the continuous main line which is a continuous loop as I am having a bit of a problem trying to keep the curves with in reason (18"). The middle I am going to try for some type of mining operation but first I have to work in a way in and out with an acceptable grade. Suggestions are always welcome.


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

It seems that you are doing the model in HO scale? I checked all posts. I do not see anything mentioned for which scale.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Sorry about that it is HO


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

That is okay. On the last pix that you posted, the track, (which is next to these two rubber bands,) is awful too close to the edge. Guys recommend that it is to be at least 2" away from the edge... Just saying.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Its not the thickness of the bottom of the joiners, its the width. Usually they are so wide that they ride up on what is holding the track in gauge, so you need to knock off those little tabs to get the joiner down flat on the tie. I just take of the ties in that area the later slip in some dummy ties.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Yes it is close, my plan is to add on to the edge and I also am going to put a wall around the edge to tidy up the look also the last picture shows the track in thin air and that is going to get a piece made. Thanks for calling my attention to it.


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

I was a bit scared at first but slowly increasing speeds vindicated my track work.
Go as close as you think you need to and take it easy until you know they will stay on. I got away with a pretty close to the edge line and had no "divers".


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

After watching the tube I have decided to remove the ties and when things start coming together then put the ties back with my being a total clutz I would amputate my finger.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Chip said:


> I was a bit scared at first but slowly increasing speeds vindicated my track work.
> Go as close as you think you need to and take it easy until you know they will stay on. I got away with a pretty close to the edge line and had no "divers".


You lay out is what I wanted but I am so stoved up if I ducked you might as well shoot my sorry butt and drag me to a hole. I had other visions for this room and it did not happen. Now I have to think where I am going to place my turnouts.

GO PACK


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Here is my Anyrail plan it is not in stone yet, anyone have suggestions


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Jimganley said:


> Here is my Anyrail plan it is not in stone yet, anyone have suggestions


Looks like AnyRail is warning you about a couple of spots where you have a curve that's sharper than your minimum. (That's the red highlighting you see in the bottom center section of your layout.) Not sure what minimum you've set in the software, but you'll want to address those. Unfortunately, AnyRail doesn't tell you the exact radius at those points, but you can play around changing the warning value to get a good ballpark number. For example if you set the warning at 20 in. and you see the red highlighting but they go away when you set it to warn at 19 in., you know that its between 19 and 20. When doing my layout, I set the warning a bit higher than my absolute minimum to try to get the smoothest curves I could over the majority of the layout and then double checked at my absolute minimum to be sure I didn't have any warnings then.

Mark


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

Jimganley said:


> You lay out is what I wanted but I am so stoved up if I ducked you might as well shoot my sorry butt and drag me to a hole. I had other visions for this room and it did not happen. Now I have to think where I am going to place my turnouts.
> 
> GO PACK


I kinda did it on purpose to MAKE me do a little "exercise" while I still can. I built it so that certain sections can be removed without destroying the structural integrity of the thing when I just get TOO arthritic and such. That will be "Layout #4" in the long term no-plan, plan that was planned. 

#1, track and trains. 

#2 More advanced track plans and limited scenery, (happening now!) 

#3 More advanced scenery and an attempt at a "prototypical operations" type track layout.

#4 Several interdependent industries and the lines that serve them with highly detailed scenery.

MOSTLY just muck about with it and have fun!


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I am sort of stumped with the building of the M&J (Malfunction and Junction Railroad) and that is do I lay the track first then add scenery or do I do the scenery and then construct the track


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Jimganley said:


> Here is my Anyrail plan it is not in stone yet, anyone have suggestions


personally, I do like it, probably 'cause it's very close to the dogbone foot print I used for my layout


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

you are so right pretty darn close did you model in HO?


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Jimganley said:


> I am sort of stumped with the building of the M&J (Malfunction and Junction Railroad) and that is do I lay the track first then add scenery or do I do the scenery and then construct the track


It is best to lay the track first. It is common to make adjustments and changes to the track plan as you lay it. Also, scenery is more delicate than trackwork, and could be easily damaged during track laying.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Jimganley said:


> you are so right pretty darn close did you model in HO?


Yes, HO scale ..
there are some photos on the tag signature at the bottom of this post, and more on the scarm.info web site ..
If you have scarm, you can get the full layout there as well


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I have put together my prototype classification yard also the main line, in a few spots the track did not snap but in real life there will be wiggle room. I am going to widen the board a little on the bottom the 37 x 48 is going to increase to 48x72 and on the left I am going to increase the 48x32 to 48x72. How does one go about elevating the tracks?


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

You can buy inclines from Woodlands Scenics.

I'm not getting a 'raison d'etre' for this layout. If all you want to do is pull out wagons from the yard, run them around the mainline and put them back that's fine but you'll find if you have some industry spurs it will make operation rather more interesting.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Isn't that yard located in the section you dropped down for the window? Is that the track you want to elevate? If it is, you built it in sections, just unscrew the whole section and raise it up to the ones on either side.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Yes that is the section that was lower and I have raised it up to be level with the rest of the layout, it was to much of a brain strainer with the section lowered.

Cycleops; this is where I decided to start and I just cleaned up at a local auction with 9 boxes of bldgs and industries, I am in the process of adding to the layout to widen it a bit only problem is I will have to climb on the table to get at the items against the walls. Well I will keep all posted on how the winging it is going.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Cyclops is right on, you need some spurs to add some interest and fun.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

what I thought about was to get the main line in then cut in the switches (turn outs) at a later time.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the #1 rule of model railroads is that it's your RR, and you can run it as you see fit.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> I will have to climb on the table to get at the items against the walls.


You might consider a so-called "topside creeper" that auto mechanics use when working in the center of a large engine bay. This gives you a lot of reach over a deep layout without actually touching the table. 

They're not cheap, but they can be a lifesaver.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> what I thought about was to get the main line in then cut in the switches (turn outs) at a later time.


While you CAN do that, it's much, much easier to do it all at once. Much easier to get smooth transitions in and out of the turnouts if you do.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I thankyou for the idea and it just so happens to be I have one albeit home built for working on 4x4 pickups. I am rethinking the table and how I can tweak it to accomodate 18" radius tracks, thank you for your post.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I have decided to regroup and toss everthing as plans go this is the one I am going with and it is a puzzle as the original planner only gave a rough idea where to start which is the upper right corner where the three switches are hooked together.










Here is where I am at now,









This is the outer track (main) and I have marked the edge of the ties with a marker so I know where to put the roadbed. Do I put the roadbed down before the scenery or should I say what is the sequence? I will be using flex track where ever possible.
Jim


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I would do the roadbed and track before scenery, that's the way I did mine.
Get everything running good and really test things before any scenery.
You may want to make some changes. 
Sometimes things just don't run the way you think they should the way you want.

Magic


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Very good that is what I wanted to hear, I pretty much have the main track done and will solder a jumper wire between sections as I noticed some of the joiners were a bit corroded . Have to take a break from the train stuff Doctor thought I had a clot in my leg just got back from Ultra Sound and I passed. Have a great day.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Magic said:


> I would do the roadbed and track before scenery, that's the way I did mine.
> Get everything running good and really test things before any scenery.


I agree. The one exception would be if there's some area of your layout that you can't reach well. You'd want to try to finish off hard to reach areas before there's stuff in front of it that you could damage.

Mark


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> I agree. The one exception would be if there's some area of your layout that you can't reach well. You'd want to try to finish off hard to reach areas before there's stuff in front of it that you could damage.
> 
> Mark


I would also advise you to do it that way.

From the photo above, i don't think you have to worry about the reach issue.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Here are a couple photos of the layout taking shape










Now I need to know do I solder the plates to the tracks in sections which would allow me to remove a large section for adjusting the road bed and filling any cracks in the substrate.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm not sure I understand your question. Plates? Do you mean rail joiners?

You should lay the roadbed down first, then lay the track on top of it. Most people do this by laying out the track centerline, then laying the roadbed in halves, butting each up against the centerline.

You really don't need to worry about patching the substrate, as you call it. You just need to make sure that it's level so it doesn't introduce bumps into your trackwork.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Railjoiner = Plates
I am not going to use roadbed on this part of the pike. This layout I have is pretty much metro and from what I have seen in the metro areas the track seems to be laid with out the raised bed. I tried to lay the road bed but there are too many variables as the track does not lay in as it should and I have to keep bumping it this way and that.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> I tried to lay the road bed but there are too many variables as the track does not lay in as it should and I have to keep bumping it this way and that.


I'm gonna say "cease and desist". Before you go any further, you need to figure out why this is. I suspect you have kinks at rail joints, curves that are not the radius you think they are, or, since you're using a pre-made track plan, the turnouts you actually installed have a different geometry than the ones in the plan. Maybe some combination of all three. The use of roadbed cannot compensate for bad trackwork, but neither does it CAUSE bad trackwork.

What means are you using to ensure your curves are the proper radius?

Since it looks like you copied that plan from a magazine, I would draw it out with some layout planning software first to see if it actually fits with the pieces you are using.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

The plan is rather vague as far as track sections go all I know is it is a 4X6 with track 2" from the edge









with a few measurements to get a rad set on both ends. I got this as close to close as one can do in horse shoes and from there it was wing it. I used sectional 18" rad track (Atlas) and did my very best to get the rails to butt tacked the track down and using a marker drew the track then removed it and installed Flex trac which took a bit of wiggling but I did get the rails cut proper and tacked the track down, now comes the soldering of the rails in sections so they can be lifted to apply the glue. Did I make any sense?


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Morning folks,
I am putting the brakes on the layout and am looking to find info on how I keep the radius of 18" on the outside track and the inside track the same and also keep the 2" separation. I have tried to accomplice this on SCARM and also on ANYRAIL and get no where I even increased the outside Radius to 22" in hopes the 18 would fit nope. my table is 4X6


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Here is a photo of the beginning of laying trackon the lower left hand side how does one keep a 2" seperation I am using 18" rad and also have to stay 2" from edge..


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Instead of different radii, try adding a short piece of straight track at the apex of the outer curve. This will allow you to nest 2 18" radius curves together, although there won't be a constant 2" separation between tracks.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Jimganley said:


> Here is a photo of the beginning of laying trackon the lower left hand side how does one keep a 2" seperation I am using 18" rad and also have to stay 2" from edge..


Hi Jim. There's no way to keep the radii the same on both tracks and maintain a 2" gap - the outer track will always need a wider radii curve than the inner track. You're kind of figuring that out already I see by allocating 22" radii track on the outer curve, but your problems are stemming from the end points of your tracks not being directly adjacent to each other. The easiest way to maintain a consistent gap around a curve is to make sure the tracks coming off both your turnouts start and end at the same adjacent spots. I took your layout pic and drew red lines based on your inner curve track end points to show you where those adjacent points are:








Your #4 turnouts make this a bit challenging to do because the turnout stubs ends are short and create a slight offset on the first track piece for the outer curve. Your best bet to rectify this issue is to cut a custom length piece of flex track for that first track piece to get it to end at a good adjacent spot with the first piece of the inner curve, then go from there.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Thank you for your help the other problem I am having is trying to figure out the authors way of thinking (see post #62) with the word approximate also inorder to get it almost right it sounds as if I will have to cut the #4 switches. One other thing is it better to use manual switches over powered.
Thanks 
Jim


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Geometry is going to dictate that your inside curve
must be of a lesser radius than your outer curve.

However, you can ease your track laying by using
flex track for that inner curve. Pre formed sectional
radius track is going to be a major problem in your
situation.

You would be adding to your problem if you cut any
on your turnouts. Very often it does help to use
a 1 or 2 inch transition curve or straight track piece 
between the turnout and the connecting track.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> Thank you for your help the other problem I am having is trying to figure out the authors way of thinking (see post #62) with the word approximate also inorder to get it almost right it sounds as if I will have to cut the #4 switches. One other thing is it better to use manual switches over powered.
> Thanks
> Jim


Maybe. But i think that article predates flex track. A short piece of flex track coming out of the turnout will give you the geometry you want. Easier than doctoring a turnout.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I would like to expose my ignorance, Could someone help me on the measurements that the article refers to 2+2+16=20, The main curve centers were located 20" in from each edge. The lower left hand curve center by the terminal was 20" back from the front edge but 28" in from the left hand edge.
I read and re read and move things around but I seem to be missing something


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

There is nothing wrong with the measurements. There is no center in the lower left hand curve because of the turnouts. The curves are offset toward the top side of the layout drawing. Start in the upper left corner and measure the two radii (16" for the inner, 18" for the outer). Remember that you are always working to the centerline, not the edge of the track.

Lay those two arcs in, then measure place everything else off of those arcs.

I still think most of your trouble is coming from the fact that the turnouts you are using don't have the same geometry as the ones used by the original designer. I suspect that he was using so-called Snap Switches, which were designed to use with loops of track and have a diverging leg which is 15 degrees of 18" radius curve, as opposed to a more prototypical turnout (#4), which has a straight diverging leg.

Are you familiar with the expression "No plan survives first contact with the enemy"? Use that plan as inspiration and build a layout that works. Don't try to duplicate the track plan exactly.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

OK, so I started piecing this together in AnyRail, and I can assure you that the track plan is a "concept sketch" not an actual diagram of the physical track locations. The "plans" that appear in _Model Railroader_ are the same way, with more concern for a neatly flowing line than an actual turnout geometry.

You would have to custom lay turnouts to get that plan to work as drawn -- even trimming turnouts doesn't look feasible to get some of that geometry.

If you can give me a few days (at least through the weekend), I can mock up something that is close -- using flextrack and commercially available pieces -- and send 
it to you.

What kind of track are you actually using, and what is the EXACT PART NUMBER of the turnouts you have so far?


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Hey CT, here are the switch type and make that I h
Atlas Wye----------------------------------------------1
Atlas Custom Line Wye------------------------------- 2
Atlas 3 Switch Ladder---------------------------------1
Shinohara Double Cross Over------------------------1
Shinohara 3 switch Wye------------------------------1
*SWITCH RIGHT*
Atlas #4 Custom Line---------------------------------7
Atlas #4 snap switch- --------------------------------8
Lifelike #4---------------------------------------------7
Atlas#6-----------------------------------------------6
*SWITCH LEFT*
Atlas #4 Snap Switch---------------------------------8
Atlas Custom Line#4---------------------------------3
Tyco left#4--------------------------------------------1
Yugoslavia left-----------------------------------------2
AHM #598 Left----------------------------------------5
Lifelike-------------------------------------------------2
Atlas#6-----------------------------------------------4
I also have many feet of flex got to be 75 feet or more.
Thanks


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

OMG, what a mishmash of stuff! No wonder you can't make anything work. Offhand, I would bet that no two of those turnouts have the same geometry. How did you acquire all that? Estate sale or swap meet bargain (you've probably said it somewhere before, but I don't have the patience to go digging through all your other posts to find it).

Is it all Code 100, or do you have a hodge podge there as well?

Many of those aren't in AnyRail's library, and some I've never even heard of. The Atlas 3 switch ladder, for instance. Do you have a part number for that? Also Atlas turnouts, at least since I've been aware of it, are EITHER a Snap Switch OR a #4, not both.

I was going to try to use what you had, but I see that isn't going to work. I should be able to create a plan that will look similar. but you're basically going to end up custom fitting each individual turnout with flex track at both ends to account for varying geometry.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Where I said #4 snap I was supposing that all switchs were the same so just toss out the 4 where it does not belong with Atlas, the 3 switch ladder has been around so long both ends of the box have been wore away and the ties are some type of fiber board with no markings. 
All of this stuff is what I have had from years ago and some have been purchased at estate, garage sales and auctions. Do not worry about trying to put this together as I do not want to be responsible for someone to have a stroke. I have abandoned that plan but hey thank you for the offer and one more question some of the switches are powered am I better off with power or go to the manual throws my table top has 3/8 ply with 1" foam.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, I won't have a stroke -- i like a challenge. Although I admit that's walking a fine line between challenge and aggravation. 

That layout isn't unworkable. I'm a little concerned about any plan in HO that uses curves below 18", but if you stick to short locos and cars, it should be ok. It has the distinct advantage of packing a lot of action into a small area. Just don't expect to use that drawing for anything more than a general guideline, and don't expect the turnout legs to give you the right angle without a bit of flex track to help them out. A couple of curved turnouts might be helpful too, since there are spots where turnouts are located too tightly against curves.

Personally, I prefer under-table switch machines (I use SG90 servos and contollers from Tam Valley Depot). All the ones I know of will easily work through 1" of foam and 3/4" plywood. Most of them will work through much thicker tables -- although sometimes you have to mount a little crank contraption if you have a lot of foam to penetrate. Better off is really up to you. Manual throws are easier to hook up, but can cause problems with reach and interference from scenery or trains.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

My very first idea was an urban freighter going into and out of the factory's in the Minneapolis are deliver to a classification yard from th classification yard deliver to St Cloud, Duluth into Wisconsin where there is a trap rock quarry still working and the terrain is mostly flat.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Ultimately, you and only you can decide what appeals to you. Then you have to build something that simulates it well enough for your needs.

For most of us, this is an organic, growing process. You build something. You find parts that don't work, and you redesign and rebuild. Perhaps several times. Sometimes, you completely throw it out and start over as you get a better handle on what you like and want from your layout. I'm on my 4th in 15 years. Once and done is rare in this hobby.

I think your problem right now is that you're letting frustration with the building process dictate what you try to build. With that ecclectic collection of track parts, you're facing a challenge no matter what you decide to build. I think, at this point, you need to pick something and build it. Overcoming tracklaying challenges will give you confidence. Don't hesitate to use flextrack to obtain the geometry you want, and don't hesitate to expand your area slightly to make things fit. But I think you need a working layout to helo you decide what you really want to do with it.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I am going to call this Number One which is going to be one of the Towns on the lay out and build out from here. I would like to get at least two Industry spurs into it. I used all sectional track and made sure my joiners and track ends are tight, next I am going to power the the track. The open track will get a filler to close up.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Inside loop, first joint from turnout lower right looks strange. Inside loop middle left after turnout looks real bad. Top left is where you will exit to make a U turn to continue down the window wall. Is there enough room for that? How many of your turnouts are brass?
Flex is the way to go.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Some of the joints look strange but the rails are butting ok could be I am missing some ties? This lay out is getting stripped it is to small to get any industry stubs in although I had a sort of moment and thought about a couple of 60° crossovers and after moving some track around just not enough room. It is getting to the realization this room is not big enough and maybe I should sell what I have and go with N Gage it is not time to toss in the towel. I am going to strip it clean and run the main line then when that is up and running, start to cut in turnouts to get my industry and towns going but this layout that I have is not going to work unless I have some mighty sharp turns and with sharp turns comes a length problem although I have a couple switchers. Back to the table.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, that is quite the change but if you are not invested in HO then N maybe the answer. Hopefully your hands are steady and your eyesight is good, it will give you some wide turns. Be sure to use nickel-silver and flex everywhere.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

It is just a thought and as you have mentioned I had better have a steady hand and good eye sight which I have neither, I like HO it is the right size for a home pike and at the age of 70 and more then my share of health issues I will stick with HO it is just going to take a bit of doing until I hit on the right layout. One thing I am doing wrong is trying to cram to much into to little space and trying to put to much action into this space.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Jimganley said:


> It is just a thought and as you have mentioned I had better have a steady hand and good eye sight which I have neither, I like HO it is the right size for a home pike and at the age of 70 and more then my share of health issues I will stick with HO it is just going to take a bit of doing until I hit on the right layout. One thing I am doing wrong is trying to cram to much into to little space and trying to put to much action into this space.


Is there any chance of you expanding the layout space in a different way considering the room real estate? For example, instead of a block table a more narrow layout that goes along the contour of the walls? Keeps the middle of the room more open and gives you wider turns for HO.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Darn curves everything would be easy if you could go straight ahead, and on to my question how many left and right curved turn outs might one need and which is the best type I do believe that I need a couple three and am going to look to Epay for some used ones, new is not in my future at any time. I have one curved turnout that came with a load of auction stuff I purchased the other day.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Walthers or Peco are both good for curved turnouts. Used turnouts -- proceed with caution. There is a good chance they are damaged or worn.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Just cannot afford or justify the high cost since I have been retired, we just went from Summer to Winter in a matter of hours on another note is it just me or is anyone else having problems downloading plans from the SCARM Library I am thinking there should be a link where it says File, I get the N/A with no link.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Jimganley said:


> r is anyone else having problems downloading plans from the SCARM Library I am thinking there should be a link where it says File, I get the N/A with no link.


Don't know about other actual Scarm layout files, but my Squirrel Creek project _used_ to show, but not any longer on his site ...
I haven't actually gotten around to sending him an email as to why...


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

He said something about white list in ad blocker if you have it, 
I just removed AD Blocker and it works now


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I have come across a plan that I like and could expand from it but my problem is trying to come up with a Maerklin catalog that will tell me what type of track was used, The plan is Maerklin_Gleis_Nostalgie_8Be.scarm


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Maerklin track is proprietary. It doesn't work with other track. So you'd be investing in new track.

I think you need to find a plan that you like and use it for inspiration, building something that looks close and operates the same way, but using the pieces you already have. Especially if you don't want to buy any new parts. You will have to get comfortable adapting the pieces you already have, probably with short lengths of flex track. I very much doubt you are going to find one that you can build exactly to a stock plan.

And the question then becomes how much space do you REALLY have for a layout, if you break out of the rectangle paradigm.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I have a plan that I like and am now putting it together but it will not be track for track after I get a bit along here I will snap a photo I also spoke with the wife and I am going to purchase a left and right curved turn out but I need to try and understand what the diff is in #4, #6 etc. and I thankyou for you help with this perplexing problem.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

A snap switch is real tight on the diverging side (no real number on these), a #4 is a little less sharp and a #6 is alot less on the diverging track. #8 require a lot of room. Stay with #4 and trash the snap switches, if you can go with #6, do it, otherwise #4 will be fine.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> I have a plan that I like and am now putting it together but it will not be track for track after I get a bit along here I will snap a photo I also spoke with the wife and I am going to purchase a left and right curved turn out but I need to try and understand what the diff is in #4, #6 etc. and I thankyou for you help with this perplexing problem.


Imagine the track centerlines of the turnout as a big triangle, where the hypotenuse is the diverging leg and the long side is the straight one. The short side is the distance separating the two legs. The turnout # is the distance from the frog, measured along the long side, for every unit of measure of the short side.

So when your short side (diverging distance) length is 1", you would be 4" away from the frog on the straight leg if you have a #4 turnout.

(This is easier to draw than to explain, but unfortunately, I'm at work and can't post images).

Snap switches, on the other hand, use 15 degrees of an 18" radius curve as the diverging leg, so there really isn't a turnout #.

On a 4x8 layout or smaller, a #4 is about all you'd have room for; Snap Switches can be useful in getting sharper diverging angles.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Most of my track is Atlas and looking on their site I did not see any curved turnouts and looking at the Peco site I see, Code 100 Curved Double Radius Turnout Right Hand Insulfrog -- Model Train Track -- HO Scale -- #244

Code 100 Curved Double Radius Turnout Left Hand Insulfrog -- Model Train Track -- HO Scale -- #245

will these right and left be what I need?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> Most of my track is Atlas and looking on their site I did not see any curved turnouts and looking at the Peco site I see, Code 100 Curved Double Radius Turnout Right Hand Insulfrog -- Model Train Track -- HO Scale -- #244
> 
> Code 100 Curved Double Radius Turnout Left Hand Insulfrog -- Model Train Track -- HO Scale -- #245
> 
> will these right and left be what I need?


Can't say for sure what you NEED, but those are excellent options. The inside curve is just under 18" radius, the outer is just over. Walthers-Shinohara also makes good ones. Pecos have the advantage of a spring which holds the points in place, if you don't want to install a switch machine.


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## Tom17 (Jan 14, 2016)

Atlas does have a curve turn out http://shop.atlasrr.com/p-45798-ho-code-83-customline-curved-turnout-left.aspx , but are on back order. 
Atlas #595 Code 83 Customline Mark IV Curved Turnout - Left
The outside radius of the turnout is listed at 30”; the inside radius is 22”. 
Right turn out is # 596.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I think I will go with Peco but I am confused as to what I should buy, I am using mostly the 18" radius any advice


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Tom17 said:


> Atlas does have a curve turn out http://shop.atlasrr.com/p-45798-ho-code-83-customline-curved-turnout-left.aspx , but are on back order.
> Atlas #595 Code 83 Customline Mark IV Curved Turnout - Left
> The outside radius of the turnout is listed at 30”; the inside radius is 22”.
> Right turn out is # 596.


I think those are new releases -- they're not due in stores until March 2017.

But in any event, the OP is looking at a roughly 4x8 space, so those radii are far too big.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> I think I will go with Peco but I am confused as to what I should buy, I am using mostly the 18" radius any advice


If you NEED curved turnouts for the plan, or WANT them to make things fit a little better, then you should buy some of the ones you listed. How many and which direction depends on the layout and where you want to use them. On a Left hand turnout, if you put the "y" shape to the top, the diverging leg goes to the left. Right hand turnouts are the opposite. If you can't visualize it, just rotate the drawing until the Y is upright.

Just be aware, they can help you in situations where you need to have a turnout on a curved section of track, but they are not a universal replacement for standard turnouts.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Here is the layout, this are is 4x6 1/2 I am thinking my next operation is to lay the road bed, I have traced all the track and will remove the same to install flex as usual suggestions are welcome.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Unless I am missing something, as designed, trains can't actually "take a lap", and you would have to go with very short trains (to fit on the sidings) and back-up moves to get around the loop.

I THINK you can fix that by swapping the position of the turnouts on the left side and tinkering with your sidings a bit.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

You are so right I do not know how I missed that although I will be going on around the room still need to correct.









On another note can some one tell me how to get a parallel track in the lower left of the drawing, The upper left I have a couple Peco curved turnouts coming which will give me an out at least I have something I can live with and it is a start. 
Thanks
Happy Thanksgiving


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If I read your question right, you could use a 
regular or curved RH turnout coming out
near the bottom of the right hand loop. You could
extend that to make a parallel track.

Don


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Lower left installed Wye upper right added turnout. Not sure if this is the place but I would like to get a steamer or two but want sound already installed as well as the engine to smoke with out killing the bank any company that has all this??


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> On another note can some one tell me how to get a parallel track in the lower left of the drawing, The upper left I have a couple Peco curved turnouts coming which will give me an out at least I have something I can live with and it is a start.
> Thanks
> Happy Thanksgiving


Use flex track. Sectional track is notoriously cranky for stuff like that.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> Lower left installed Wye upper right added turnout. Not sure if this is the place but I would like to get a steamer or two but want sound already installed as well as the engine to smoke with out killing the bank any company that has this?


Not sure that wye is going to work for you. I think the separation between adjacent tracks is too narrow, and stuff will bump. Make sure you test that with the cars and locos you plan to use.

You'll have to define "killing the bank" before we can answer the second part. Basically, though you're asking for a car with lots of luxury features and technology for the price of a bare bones model. MTH offers locos that fit the bill, feature wise, but you're not gonna pick one of those up for under $300.

You also might want to consider whether you actually want smoke. It's easy to overfill, causing a huge headache, or burn it up by letting it get empty. And the smoke tends to leave an oily residue on everything eventually.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I should have said killing my bank funds, I do have to diesel locos that are dcc ready and two steamers that do not and you do have a point on the mess but they look cool I will go check the spacing on the wye.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I am using Woodland track bed the thin rubber stuff on the main line and under all of the turnouts connected to the main, last night I glued the foam down and where I am having a problem is getting the track to go from the bed to the ground any tricks to make it a smooth enter and exit?


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Use a shim shingle from home depot or use the "cookie cutter" method which is the best.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Glue down a thin piece of foam or wood and sand it to the shape you want.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Why oh why am I so dense jeez that makes it easy THANK YOU, another question and this is the way I am going about it, on one side of the layout I have a grouping of 5 turnouts and I am placing these on top of the Woodland rubber road bed and bring the tracks down to ground level from there. Left one thing out or forgot but do you glue the turnouts down or just let them float I have noticed it does not take much pressure to knock the points out of align.
Thanks


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Loco is not acting proper it is a Bachmann GE 70 Ton Loco (DCC) and my power is a Bachmann E-Z Command and with the power all the way to off the loco still takes off at a good speed and does not take any commands from the controller. I also have a Bachmann GP 40 Loco (DCC) and it will sit on the tracks and not even growl until I start to throttle up. Both Locos are New and never run until today, what am I doing wrong? I was going to start soldering track joints prior to ballast and wanted the small engine to test the track and turn outs as I went along Any thoughts??


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Before doing anything else, give your track and loco wheels a good cleaning. Dirt interferes with the decoder's ability to read commands from the track.

First of all, did you assign each loco a unique address? For the GE 70 Tonner, it sounds like it is a dual mode decoder which has been hard set to DC. Pop the top and see if there is a jumper or DIP switch to change the settings. Otherwise, you will have to monkey with CV's, and I'm not sure your EZ Command can do that.

As long as you're satisfied with your trackwork (everything where you want it, no kinks or overly tight curves), there is no reason delay soldering and ballasting. This issue isn't related to your track.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I just spike turnouts down especially near the throw-bars. Gluing is just too permanent.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

*Getting close*

I have now soldered almost all of the track joints, forgot one figures. Now I must make a decision on the roadbed do I put raised bed under all of the tracks or as seen in the picture only the main, I have one section Upper Right Curve where I put the caulk down and spread it real thin seems to be holding OK. My one concern is the turnouts something just does not look right. Thoughts?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jim

Usually you use the roadbed under your 'main lines'.
Yards and spur tracks are often just laid on whatever
your surface is. Compare the Mainlines of real railroads
around you with the yard tracks and industry spurs.
You'll see that the 'main's are usually nicely maintained
with neatly applied gravel, while the yard tracks and
spurs are often very weedy, lots of ashes, and various
rusted parts. 

This will require a vertical 'easement' but that is easy
with wood shingle type shims from the big box stores.
Flex track will form it's own easement but will require
support as it does.

Don


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

What sucks is I live so far from any RR although I could have my son take photos as he hauls containers and is in and out of the yards daily.I was confused on the raised track and the yard tracks, as I try and picture the BNSF Northtown yard yes the class tracks are just put on the ground. I have marked all the track positions so I can put glue down to hold (caulk), I have to swap out some switches so they are all Atlas #4 and remove the switch machines on them, have caboose actuators on order hopefully they will work.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Forget the actuators for a bit. Caboose ground throws will work fine, but the basic track work won't. You need to really sit down and get your turnouts smoothed out. You have horrendous kinks at one or both ends of most of them. That will just lead to trouble.

You need to use a straight edge and make sure the straight rails on the turnouts are in perfect alignment with the rails connected to them.

The diverging legs are trickier, but you need to make sure the rails don't move abruptly one way or the other as they exit.

Believe me, this is one area where you need to be dead on. Any strange deformities in your track will cause trouble when you try to run trains.

Are you trying to wing the track laying? Some of the kinks I see look like your flextrack curves are not smooth (and sectional track isn't a very good guide). Either build or get a trammel and lay down some nice smooth arcs to lay the track on, or get some track laying guides to make sure you're not cheating. In the top photo, it doesn't look like either of the curves closest to the camera is the same radius the whole way through. It also doesn't look like either of the turnouts on the outside loop is parallel to the layout edge.


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## saberonyx (Nov 17, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Forget the actuators for a bit. Caboose ground throws will work fine, but the basic track work won't. You need to really sit down and get your turnouts smoothed out. You have horrendous kinks at one or both ends of most of them. That will just lead to trouble.
> 
> You need to use a straight edge and make sure the straight rails on the turnouts are in perfect alignment with the rails connected to them.
> 
> ...










.This could be a trouble spot

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

That's exactly what I mean. I see similar issues in just about every turnout in every photo.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I tore the whole layout apart and reassembled it using only sectional track, the main line (outside) is 22R Atlas C83, the inner track is 18R Atlas and all turnouts are Atlas #4 Snap except on the right side of the layout there is a #6 Atlas left, None of the track is fixed just has push nails to help with alignment. I am stumped as to what to do with the open turnout on the right side. What are your opinions do I break out the new sectional and go with it or do I use flex although I am a bit nervous with using flex..


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Must be tired of my postings but I will try one last time, I have reconfigured the layout and I like it although I am thinking it is a bit to busy, also the Atlas ladder track should I get rid of it and just put 3 left turnouts in it's place. I am going to remove most of the switch machines and replace with Caboose manual controls.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So now I have a crick in my neck from turning my head sideways to look at the pictures.

I don't see any obvious problems with the design itself, and I think you will be much happier with the Caboose ground throws than you will with the stock actuators. Just remember that walking around the layout every time you need to line a turnout will probably get old fast, so you may want to consider putting a remote actuator on the ones that aren't readily accessible.

I still have my old concern about the kinks in the track though. Basically, where the rails connect, it should look like one continuous piece. If you see a jog to one side or the other where the pieces connect, that's bad. A good indicator that you have a kink is if the gap between the pieces is wider on one rail than it is on the other. Some of this may be due to slight variations in the length of the rails, but I see at least four spots in the photos above where you definitely have a kink.

You also have several spots where the joiners are misaligned, but I suspect that's due to the fact that you're not ready to permanently mount the track.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Sorry about the sideways pictures not sure how it happened but I just went from camera to the forum.

Today I am working on the track getting it ready to glue down, I am checking every joint for a solid connection and have noticed that when I cut the track (flex) I am not getting a perfect vertical cut and have to use the moto tool to square up the ends and deburr them. I was planning on using flex over sectional but am having troubles holding the curves prior to gluing might go back to sectional.
There are a couple switches that will keep the actuators they are to close to add a caboose unit. Do you have any opinions on the Atlas ladder track It came with some auction stuff.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

When I was laying track a few years ago, I made a simple track alignment tester ..
It was just a piece of clear plexi with two trucks mounted to it, and I glued a couple of wires to the trucks so that they just about met in the middle ..
It worked very well, less wire wiggling or mis-alignment mean better track, but I didn't take a photo at the time..


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> Sorry about the sideways pictures not sure how it happened but I just went from camera to the forum.
> 
> Today I am working on the track getting it ready to glue down, I am checking every joint for a solid connection and have noticed that when I cut the track (flex) I am not getting a perfect vertical cut and have to use the moto tool to square up the ends and deburr them. I was planning on using flex over sectional but am having troubles holding the curves prior to gluing might go back to sectional.
> There are a couple switches that will keep the actuators they are to close to add a caboose unit. Do you have any opinions on the Atlas ladder track It came with some auction stuff.


You're checking the joints for solid connections, but are you making sure that everything lines up properly?

Generally, rail joints won't give you a good connection unless you solder them. Where you can't solder them, add feeders to ensure good power delivery. Also, having to dress the ends of cut rail is a normal part of the process. Even if you did get a perfectly vertical cut, you would still have to touch up the end a bit.

There are many track alignment aids available to help you lay curves effectively with flex track. You might consider investing in some. Or you can use MicroEngineering flex track, which stays put once you shape it.

My opinion on Atlas turnouts in general is that i would replace any old brass ones with new, nickel silver ones. If you can live with the old, possibly worn out brass ones, then I see no reason not to use the ladder track if it fits your design.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Checked alignment on my joints and applied solder to hold everything in position nice and straight and rolling a couple of cars across the entire layout shows no problems nice smooth joints.
Now comes the hard part scenery and I am not a landscaper or designer, this first part I have put together almost seems to be to busy although I will work around it. Now do I set my bldgs and then work in the roads or the roads then the bldgs?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jim

Except for basics like bridges, tunnels and the like you
might want to test your tracks with trains actually
running on them. It would be easier to find and fix
electrical problems without having to worry with
scenic effects. They'll come later.

What did you do about that turnout without a tail
that you had marked with a '?' ?

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I hope you got it right. I agree with Don -- run some trains to test everything. Use your longest and most finicky equipment. If it doesn't derail, everything should work fine. Your decision to solder before testing may come back to haunt you. I hope not.

Scenery is not hard. Get some pictures of what you want it to look like and just try to reproduce it. Nature doesn't really like abrupt changes. Even cliffs form into the landscape.

You'll want to reserve space for your structures now. If you have kits, you can just use the base plate, or tack the walls together with rubber cement. Trace around the base with a Sharpie, then make sure you keep the land under your buildings level. Alternatively, if you're using Sculptamold or something similar, just press the base of the structure into the plaster to leave an imprint. Make sure it's fairly level (although you can use styrene or basswood to level it later, making it look like exposed foundation on the low side).

If you don't have the kit yet, try to find the dimensions and mock it up with cardboard, foamcore, or something similar.

Don't get discouraged if you have an "aw, crap" moment later. You can always take a hobby knife, rasp or razor saw to your scenery to fit the structure in, or kitbash the structure to make it fit.

After you know where your structures are, rough in the roads. Adjust the location of the structures to make it look realistic. Any time you're unsure, get some pictures and try to duplicate what you see.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Some of that track looks like steel track. I would stay away from that.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I had checked most of my track and then decided it was not good enough so I took all the track or most of it back up. One problem I am having is that this is old track and the rails are brass also my prime movers are the old DC type and the wheels need some serious cleaning. In the pictures I have set some bldgs out mainly to amuse myself also you can see what I did with the ? Only track that needs to be soldered is the far inside ladder tracks? there I am going to use flex instead of the sectional. One other thing when looking at this layout is it will be moving to the large bdrm where the rest of the modules will be moved.Well back to cleaning the brass. Plan of attack;
Clean Track make sure locos run perfect
Wire this module before any scenery.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Due to the track being brass I decided to brush the joints with the Dremel put on some flux then apply electronics solder after it is soldered I use the VOM to make sure I have excellent continuity. Once I get it running perfect then the module will get moved.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I have made the decision to scrap the plan, I have removed all track from the table and at this point in time I am thinking about selling all the stuff I have and either leave the hobby or drop to N-scale.
My biggest problem is my health as I have a hard time standing so at this time I would like to wish all a Happy Holidays.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Sorry to hear that your health is causing problems for you. I don't think I understand why N scale would solve your standing problem. Are you thinking you could work on the train set while sitting in a chair with the train set at standard table height? That would make some sense, but I think you could do the same with HO scale, just with a different plan that doesn't require you to reach too far across the layout. One caution that I have for N scale is that its harder to see if your eyesight isn't the best. I moved from N scale up to HO scale for that very reason.

Mark


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I hate to see anyone leave the hobby, but if you have trouble standing it is hard to do a lot in this hobby.

That said, I am having trouble with two things. The first is wondering why you keep discarding perfectly feasible layouts and starting over. Yes, you do seem to be having trouble getting things aligned properly, but that's no reason to discard the layouts. Just get in there and fix what isn't working.

The second is considering a switch to N scale. Never mind that this would be a considerable expense, but it isn't likely to solve any of the issues you seem to be having. If you have that kind of money lying around, replace some of the crappy old track pieces you're trying to use with higher quality ones.

If you're having trouble with the standing, then I would recommend you build your layout as a series of bolt-together 2x4 modules that could be built at a workbench and then joined together. If you don't feel like designing these yourself, Woodland Scenics has a line of modular sections that you could use. http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/category/ModURailSystem You just need to make sure you are very precise in marking your track locations at the edge of each module.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Hello and thank you for the support, N Scale is out I just opened up a box with N Scale cars and Loco and it is too small. The last layout was OK. I felt it was to busy for what I am after also I started to ballast the tracks and did a most horse crap job:smilie_daumenneg: I took all the track out to the deep sink and washed all the ballast off. To put the track back down would only take a day. I was not happy with the switches from the main to the industrial tracks kind of a night cow.I have thought about dropping the table so I might use a roll chair so let me get the table moved to the larger bdrm and size up the HO train.
Thank you for the help and also putting up with my indecision's and jumping ahead etc.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think your problem is in two different areas. 

First, you seem to expect to do everything right the first time. To coin a phrase: fuhgeddabowdit!! As with most other skills, the develop over time. Even with all the advice you can gather here, expect these things to be a learning experience. Rather than ripping things out and starting over, try tweaking or repairing. Personally, I find it hard to conceive of a ballasting job that was so bad it needed a complete do-over.

And your second problem is related to the first. You have no deadline. Slow down, take the time necessary to do it right, and enjoy the process. Even working on a small 4x8-is area, you need more than a day to lay good, quality, defect-free trackwork. Take a few days to relay your track, and take the time to get it dead right. No offense, but I have yet to see a photo of your trackwork that didn't have kinks, large gaps, and abrupt jogs in it. I had one section of my old layout that I had to relay 3 times, with who knows how much joggering each time, to get it right. Especially if you have trouble standing for long periods of time, do this a little bit at a time. It's not a race.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I agree about taking your time. When I run into a problem, I often just stop actual work and let the problem rest a day or two. Just gives you time to think about the big picture. I like your idea about making the layout more accessible. You can also force yourself to put all the wires and controls on top rather than mounting anything under the layout. You can always cover it with a little bit of scenery magic.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

...Have you considered maybe going with a shelf of some kind? Something you can pull a chair up to.

then you could just roll around in a comfy office chair.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

santafealltheway said:


> ...Have you considered maybe going with a shelf of some kind? Something you can pull a chair up to.
> 
> then you could just roll around in a comfy office chair.


Good idea, that! Not sure why the OP decided on a 4x8 originally, but in his case a smaller reach would probably be much better.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

For what ever reason lately I just cannot get my head into this, I am going to try and give it my best using AnyRail software and try my best to learn how to use the program. I also have SCARM. Currently I am taking stock of my rail and cleaning it by removing any solder and corrosion, I would like to go all NicSil but this would be a hard sell to the WIFE. Most of my switches are brass and the price of new is really out of the question. After the 1st of Jan I will be looking at putting up an around the wall shelf 24" to 30". 
Have a Good New Year and above all
*Be Safe*





Here is my new area 12" sq and I would like to use 22 radius for the main line which I have started. I have no idea why I need a main that travels in a loop when in real life it is an out and back system. I will be using Atlas Code 83 track with a mismatch of switches. Feel free to comment this is where the RR is going to take root and I have revised this layout the second time inorder to get the 22 track to work


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

That's a good start...a nice basic continuous running layout. 
Next, what are your operating ideas? Switching? Just sitting
back and watch the trains run? Or a good mix of both?

You have lots of space and opportunities to create small
yards and a good number of industrial spurs if you want
some switching. 

Since it's a single track main line you may want to think of
passing sidings, especially if you'll be running DCC trains.
With them you can have two rains running in opposite
directions at the same time.

Have you checked the layouts in the Layout design forum?
There are ideas there that you can use to enhance the
basic layout you already have. You will see a small yard
in one, an interesting set of industrial spurs where one
track crosses another. 

Don


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Hi Don I am thinking about a little of both but might lean a bit to the switching and industrial. A two track main would be nice but not sure how to make it all fit. Maybe a steel plant, Dairy, stock yard I also am going to build in the transition period as I do remember waiting for the big steamers to clear Talmadge ave in SE Mpls as I had to cross there for going to and coming from school, do not remember how old I was but the gritty grimy locos are etched in my nostrils, eyes and brain.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I have 2 questions:

1) Who on earth said it has to be a loop? By all means design it point to point if that is the way your interests lie. Have you looked at the "Collection of Track Plans" thread? There are a couple of point to point layouts in there.

2) Why 22.5"? It doesn't buy you much over 22", and it takes you out of the standard radii and int cutsom trackwork.

Fitting in industries from the design you have is a simple matter of inserting turnouts to create sidings. If you keep the loops, inside the loops is a good place for industries, and this helps to disguise the fact that there are loops there (see my layout design for examples). Also, moving the two mainlines closer togethrr on the right side will give you a lot of room between the tracks and the aisle. You can also model just the part of the industry that interfaces with the railroad. For example, just the loading dock of a sawmill, or the tipple of a mine, or a small milk stop station. The rest of the industry can be in the aisle or on a backdrop.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

For a moderate size layout such as you have and with
your 40s, 50s era possible theme, you might consider
small freight users instead of huge industries. Things
that come to mind, grocery wholesalers, meat companies,
scrap yards, coal or fuel oil dealers, Less than car load
railroad freight stations and the like. There were
creameries, stock pens, reefer icing stations also.

You can have 2 or 3 of these on one spur. I have 3 spurs
each with more than one small business. This makes
for inteesting and challenging switching operations.
It's important to have a runaroun or passing siding
so your switcher can get on either side of a car. Some
must be pushed forward into a spur, others pushed
backward in.

Dob


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> I have 2 questions:
> 
> 1) Who on earth said it has to be a loop? By all means design it point to point if that is the way your interests lie. Have you looked at the "Collection of Track Plans" thread? There are a couple of point to point layouts in there.
> 
> ...


1) did i say loop darn was trying to find it but it is another one of those days. It can be point to point but I just might want to watch a big loco going non-stop.

2) My mess up on the 22.5 again have this mental block today


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Here is the latest rendition, what is bothering me is the areas where the track will not connect but I imagine there will be some wiggle room.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jim

If you use flex track you'll have no problem
aligning it along the lines of your design. 

Sectional tracks are rigid and make you do
as the maker wants. With flex it will bend to
your plans.

Don


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> 1) Who on earth said it has to be a loop? ... Have you looked at the *"Collection of Track Plans"* thread?
> ...


I have noticed references to this thread before but for the life of me, I haven't figured out how to find it. Please help me.

Happy New Year to all,
LeRoy


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

DonR said:


> That's a good start...a nice basic continuous running layout.
> Next, what are your operating ideas?
> ...
> Have you checked the layouts in the *Layout design forum*?
> ...


Don,
Where do I find this forum? I am having one of those days.

Thank you and Happy New Year to all,
LeRoy


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Homeless by Choice said:


> I have noticed references to this thread before but for the life of me, I haven't figured out how to find it. Please help me.
> 
> Happy New Year to all,
> LeRoy


LeRoy, it's a sticky in the Layout Design Forum, which is in the Model Train Workshop.

Jim, I like the layout plan, it has lots of action and looks like it will be fun.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

Overkast said:


> LeRoy, it's a sticky in the Layout Design Forum, which is in the Model Train Workshop.


Found it with your HELP.

_Model Train Forum > Model Train Workshop > Layout Design Forum > A Collection of Track Plans _

Thank you very much for your help,
LeRoy


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Homeless by Choice said:


> Found it with your HELP.
> 
> _Model Train Forum > Model Train Workshop > Layout Design Forum > A Collection of Track Plans _
> 
> ...


You're welcome! 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Thanks guy's have down loaded some angle plans which will help, about the flex track I bought a bunch of Atlas off Epay and I bought some flex track made in the Iron Curtain and they bend but it is realy hard to get them to take a shape.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Jimganley said:


> Thanks guy's have down loaded some angle plans which will help, about the flex track I bought a bunch of Atlas off Epay and I bought some flex track made in the Iron Curtain and they bend but it is realy hard to get them to take a shape.


Atlas flex track is designed to "spring-back" to straight shape, so it's a bit more challenging to work with. If you're working on a foam base then you can use foam nails to tack it down as you go. But if you're laying on plywood it will be more difficult.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

I am using a foam base and yes it is finicky, I use a lot of the wifes stick pins to hold the track where I need it. I am hoping to move the modules from the other room this weekend but other ventures are taking up a lot of space.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Jimganley said:


> I bought some flex track made in the Iron Curtain and they bend but it is realy hard to get them to take a shape.


If it was made in the former USSR then it must be quite old. Does it match the Atlas stuff?


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Hi,
I was being a dumb donkey it was easier to spell Iron Curtain then to spell the actual name me being not politically wrong. These tracks are 36" and quite stiff but will bend, to get a good bend the plastic spacers on the ties have to be cut. This is a prime example of buying from epay, I was led to believe these were new flex and the price was right with the free shipping. If I was to return the pieces the cost would have been way high. Live and learn.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

*Moved to new room*

made the move from the back bedroom to the middle bedroom much larger and a lot more light, table is set up and ready to receive ?

1) What is the proper way to get started do the ground or landscaping first or lay the track also I will be using SCARM.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Lay the track first, once it's all running good than start scenery.
You may want to change or add more track as you build.
With the basic layout you have now you will no doubt will want to add some sidings 
for industries or a passing siding so you can run two trains.

Magic


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Here is what i would do.

1) Finish the design using SCARM or Anyrail. Check your maximum reach without leaning on something and make sure all parts of your layout are accessible (if your big lobes don't have access from all sides, you may find 48" unworkable). It is much easier to modify an electronic plan than a physical layout.

2) When your layout is designed to your satisfaction, construct your table, benchwork, module frames or whatever you are doing.

3) Lay your track. Take your time and make it bulletproof. Temporarily fasten it down. Test it extensively amd fix any issues. Use your longest and your worst performing equipment to test with.

3) When everything tests SAT, trace your plan onto the table or layout surface with a Sharpie. Mark the location of all turnout throwbars.

4) Remove your track. Lay your roadbed down on the tracing you just made. If you are going to use under-the-layout switch machines, drill the holes for them.

5) Lay your track. Take your time and make it bulletproof. Fasten it down "permanently". Test it again, and fix any issues.

6) Ballast and scenic as desired. You can do either one first.

Take your time. There is no rush, and you have no deadline.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

Here is the table in real time, I still have to get some of the track pinned, once I am done with that I will start the process of industry and fiddle yards etc. I have only used a couple short pieces of flex at this time the rest is sectional which will make it easier to cut in the turnouts/switches and who knows if it all goes well I might not use any flex although I have a few hundred feet of the stuff. I do need to put in an incline (woodland scenic). Well back to landscaping.


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