# Help with tender styles



## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I've noticed there are a couple distinctive shapes to tenders from the earlier steamers, but I can't seem to find any reference that indicates the usage and time period for them. I'm hoping someone can help me understand why they had these two shapes and what they would be appropriate for? My best guess at the moment is that one is for wood and the other is for coal, but is anything really ever that simple? 

There is also a difference in the loco's driver size. This one has 52" drivers:









This one has 63" drivers. The difference in driver size appears to correlate with the different types of tenders.









Thanks for any light you can shed on this...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Tenders held wood, coal, oil and water, depending on the locomotive.

A wiki might explain some for you,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tender_(rail)


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Some models of steam locomotives used different tenders, depending on what they were used for. 
For example, the PRR Decapod used a small tender if it was in switching or local service, and a much larger ‘long haul ‘ tender for road freights. 
If you buy a new locomotive, the tender will probably be appropriate for the model. If you buy used, from eBay for example, it may or may not be correct for the loco. It’s makes for interesting research, which is part of the fun of the hobby.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

prrfan said:


> If you buy a new locomotive, the tender will probably be appropriate for the model.


Well that's part of the conundrum here... both of the locos shown above are from the same Bachmann line, and as far as I can tell the tender that is shipped with the loco is dependent on whether you request 52" or 63" drivers when you order. I just can't find any related info on what time period each model is appropriate for so I was hoping the difference in tenders would give me a clue.

@Big Ed -- Thanks but I've already scanned through that wikipedia page and didn't see anything helpful. Maybe I missed something?


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Well, it’s a good question. Who knows really if the tenders are that accurate for a given model? The driver size should be a good starting point for looking into it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Can't help with the tender 'luvin'...

But didn't the driver wheel size have to do with
the intended purpose of the locomotive?

Think gear ratio.

Basically the larger drivers were used on
passenger locos because the RR wanted
faster trains and the larger wheels gave that.

The smaller wheels gave the loco more pulling
power...the smallest used on switchers and the
larger on big freight locos.

Don


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

I think the larger driver sizes were for passenger engines and the smaller were for freight. My K4s and Atlantics have large drivers and Mikado, Consolidation and Decapod all have smaller drivers. 

As far as the tenders, I seem to remember hitting a dead end on researching them myself a while back. IIRC, many roads built their own, and used what they had available. That may explain the differences in the photos between the NYC and B&O models.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Driver size was how your changed the gear ratio of a steam loco. If it had 42 inch drivers it was designed for low speed but ability to pull hard. Eighty inch or eight-four inch drivers and it was designed for very high speed pulling only a short express pasenger train. In between, such as 63 inch drivers, was and intermediate: a loco retty good at everything but not excellent at anything. 

As to the tender, don't assume the model is accurate to the actual. Model manufacturers mix and match. What the loco really had depending on its purpose and the railroads policy and what grade of coal and water and how many stops to refuel there were along the way.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

@DonR -- yeah that makes a lot of sense, and I know the 4-6-0 was quite popular for both types of use. What stumped me though was when I looked up the D&RGW roster they had one of these Baldwins (#759) with 63" drivers and it looks like it was used for freight. Contradictions everywhere and I'm just getting more confused.

@prrfan -- Don't rely on the road name as an indicator, Bachmann sells the same names in both versions for this line of locos.

I also found a pic from Nevada Northern for one of their 4-6-0s (#40 which was restored) which looks identical to this model, except their loco had 69" drivers but only a top speed of 55mph. I guess I'll probably end up going with the step-sided tender (second picture) as that seems common for the D&RGW area, I just wish I could find more information about them.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Your conundrum is caused by the fact that your assuming that steam locos are like cars, or appliances, or to an extent diesel locomotives: a certain loco comes in a certain configuration with a certain kind of tender. They didn't. Basic physics could rule out some configurations, but basically the railroads customized locos and tenders based on what they wanted the loco to do. The railroads often built their own, especially tenders. Need more water? Lengthen the tank (and thereby the tender -- most of the storage capacity was water in any case). Want more coal? Raise the sides of the coal hopper. Want to use oil? Replace the coal hopper with a tank.

To give you an example, I have a book called "New Haven Power", which covers everything with an engine ever operated by the New York, New Haven, and Hartford railroad. The section on 2-8-2 Mikados, of which the New Haven had only 24, is 28 pages long. Each loco has at least two different tenders, frequently more. Some were modified to burn oil, some never were, and several are shown with two different sizes of drivers. The entire section of diesel and electric locomotives is only about 20% of the book. Fully 75% of the content is devoted to steam locomotives and their changing configurations. Now granted, the New Haven went belly-up in 1969 and was merged into the Penn Central, so that has something to do with the smaller number of diesels and electrics, but still.

So you can take one of two approaches. Do the research, find out exactly what the wheel arrangement, configuration and tender appearance was at any given time (hopefully, your chosen prototype has something as comprehensive as "New Haven Power" available), and either find an appropriate commercial model, or modify one to suit. Or you can say "close enough" and pick one that looks good to you. Either is fine.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

@CTValleyRR -- sure, that makes a lot of sense and doesn't really surprise me that railroads would get as much versatility as possible out of their equipment, but it seems like these two designs were present in quite a number of different railroads which is leading me down this path of thinking there must have been some function to those designs that led to their common use.

I believe the D&RGW locos I'm looking for were numbered 751-759. Unfortunately I can only find a single picture of 759, and even the sites I usually visit for information don't have any pictures either. I think this will definitely be a case of settling for 'close enough', I guess I'm just trying to figure out if there was a distinct time period between the two tender styles.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The basic function of the tender dictates your size and shape. Once the basic concept was more or less standardized in the early 19th Century, the shape of the tender was, too. The designs aren't identical, but they're close enough that you have to really know what you're looking for to see the differences. Most model railroad manufacturers just use a generic model anyway. The style with the higher front end was built to handle longer distances or heavy grades, both of which require more coal and water.

Unfortunately, for things like this, the internet can often only take you so far. Older images exist in libraries and historical societies all over the country, but the bulk of it hasn't been digitized and put online. There are literally millions of photos of the New Haven Railroad available to the public, but to see all but a small percentage of them, you actually have to visit the UConn central library in person and dig them out.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

More good info, and I appreciate it. I think I've settled on the version with the smaller drivers as the goal is to double-head them hauling a loading coal train up through a mountain pass (I really just wanted an excuse to double-head a train and these looked right for the job). That one is shown in the first picture with the straight-sided tender, which also happens to be a lot shorter, and since my main turntable will only be about 65-70 feet the length will also be important (although I'm still trying to find a reference on the length of these models).


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Well I'm excited... got one of the 52" non-lettered locos ordered, plus a tsunami 2 steam sound decoder. This will be my first experience with a commercial sound unit. I was experimenting with sound from an ESP32 (like an arduino) last year, so it will be nice to have something to compare against.

Oh and I did find one reference to the dimensions on these models. The longer one is 66' in length, so the one with the shorter tender that I ordered should fit a 65' turntable.

I don't suppose anyone knows if Bachmann supplies the plug to wire the DCC decoder to? Something that fits to the socket on the loco? I would assume they include that in the box since it's supposed to be DCC-ready but they use a non-standard plug arrangement.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Oops, double-posted somehow


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I don't suppose anyone knows if Bachmann supplies the plug to wire the DCC decoder to? Something that fits to the socket on the loco? I would assume they include that in the box since it's supposed to be DCC-ready but they use a non-standard plug arrangement.


Mine had a standard NMRA 8-pin socket... in the tender. I installed a Digitrax DH126PS decoder. It was a tight fit - I couldn't imagine getting a speaker to fit in there too.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Nice, I see you got the same one. I've heard that after a 20-minute break in these locos run beautifully -- how has your experience been?

The tsunami board I ordered was the specific number given for this loco, so it *should* fit with the speaker. I also found a customizable baffle I can print with my 3D printer, so I need to make up a couple to fit the two speakers I have and see how the sound quality comes out.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

It and my Bachmann 2-8-0 Consolidation run great. 

The 2-10-0 Decapod, not so much. It shorts in the turnouts and the last time I tried to run it it would not budge. So it sits on a siding 'til I can get a roundtuit.


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

Re: Driver sizes - Larger drivers for high speeds, lower drivers for lower speeds. Passenger locos usually had drivers around 72" up to 90" in diameter. Freight engines used drivers between about 55" and 63". Now, there is some overlap in that range between 63" and about 72". Many modern freight steamers (circa late 1920's - 1940's) used 69" drivers for faster over-the-road service. Some passenger locos, like those in commuter service, had drivers in the mid-60's range. They weren't going to go 80 mph, and the smaller drivers gave more "dig" for accelerating away from frequent stops. BTW, the conventional formula is that the diameter of the drivers is approximately equal to the maximum speed capability of the loco. Not hard and fast, but a useful guidepost.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

My decapod had a one time smoke generator in it. Sound still works, but no motion.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

The new loco arrived yesterday, and I was rather surprised at how small it is. It is very similar in stance to my HOn3 2-8-0, but the swell in the back half makes the boiler on the 4-6-0 a little larger. Since my line is based around 1905 with second-hand equipment these smaller locos actually look pretty good here, but I realized I have another problem now. My 0-4-0 switcher looks like a monster next to these other locos! Does anyone happen to have any suggestions for a smaller switcher that might fit in here? I noticed the Baldwin 0-4-2t could be a possibility, but wow, where would you even put the DCC decoder?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Does anyone happen to have any suggestions for a smaller switcher that might fit in here? I noticed the Baldwin 0-4-2t could be a possibility, but wow, where would you even put the DCC decoder?


I got this little 0-6-0T with DCC on board.

https://www.trainworld.com/manufact...0-6-0-Porter-Side-Tank-Pennsylvania-2780-DCC/

I'll take a pic of it next to the ten-wheeler tonight.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Oh that's nice looking! Any chance you could get me a measurement of the driver and boiler diameters so I can get an idea of the overall size?


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

There's a real dearth of early 1900's small locos. The Bachmann models - the small-driver 4-6-0, the Baldwin 4-4-0, and the early Ma and Pa 4-4-0's fill the bill for road power. Pacific Fast Mail once imported a brass 0-6-0 for the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha (generally referred to as the Omaha Road) that would fit in if your budget can handle it. Check on evil-bay, where they do show up occasionally. I don't recall any worthwhile 0-4-0 models that would fit that period.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Oh that's nice looking! Any chance you could get me a measurement of the driver and boiler diameters so I can get an idea of the overall size?


I'll put the calipers on 'em.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I also ran across a Baldwin 0-4-4 that looks like the appropriate size, except it appears to be a narrow gauge model and I could only find it available in ON30 and G. The 0-6-0 that Stumpy shared is also available with a saddle tank, but it looks like the saddle is about 20 years newer than the box tank style. [EDIT] Sorry, that was a Baldwin 2-4-4t that I had found.

@ebtnut -- I seeing your point, all the 'smaller' switchers that I'm finding available seem to have been made in the '20s or later and would dwarf my 4-6-0. But I'm also having trouble finding any info on what was actually used for yard work in the late 1800s. Perhaps they didn't have anything dedicated at the time and just used whatever loco was handy?

Oh I forgot to mention one surprise with my 4-6-0... The box contains two different style cabs. I think these are wood and steel cabs but I haven't had a chance to really look at them that closely. It's a real shame they're not making this model in the Spectrum line any more, I'll just have to stick with finding them on ebay I guess.

I finally got an update on the shipping for the tsunami decoder, it should be here on Thursday. Guess I better open up the tender tonight and see if I can match up the connectors.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Hey Stumpy, sorry to bug you about this, but could you also tell me the height from the top of the rail to the top of the cab? I've been trying to scale pictures to figure out the size of this thing, and I'm getting everything between 1.625 up to 1.95 inches (although the lower number was worked from a larger picture). If the cab height really is 1-5/8 then I'm in business. If it's closer to 2" then that makes it as tall as my newer-style locos.

By the way, I did find that this model is supposed to have 50" drivers.


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

Dedicated switchers were becoming common by the beginning of the 20th century. As I noted, though, models from that period are very scarce these days. And especially switchers, which aren't as useful to most modelers as road engines.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Drivers: .51"... that's the tread, not the flange.

Boiler diameter: .65"

Overall length: 4.5" 

Cab height is pretty much the same as the ten-wheeler, but I'll get an actual measurement this evening.

Did a little digging on the innernets last night and found this side tank built in 1919... https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Brooklyn_Eastern_District_Terminal_No._12

Appears to me the Bachmann model is modeled after the tanks that were build for the Army in 1942-44.

http://www.railography.co.uk/info/cn_steam/profiles/xk2.htm

https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/United_States_Army_No._5002

https://www.oklahomarailwaymuseum.o...-grounds/equipment/locomotives/porter-0-6-0t/


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Stumpy said:


> Cab height is pretty much the same as the ten-wheeler, but I'll get an actual measurement this evening.


That's the bit I was hoping for! Your pictures pretty well make the case that those two locos look like they belong together on the same line, which was my biggest concern. If you think by eyeball they are about the same then no need for further measurements, I'm sold. Thanks for the help!

From the info I've dug up, Porter had the 0-6-0T with the square tanks listed in their 1892 catalog. The saddle tank model that Bachmann has is built after a prototype from 1910 by Alco, but I didn't see when the saddle was first introduced. I'm surprised the saddle didn't completely replace the square tank style, I wonder what the differences were that kept both styles alive (perhaps just a trademark issue)? What I can see of the details, it looks like Bachmann used the same base for both models, changing only the water tanks and the cab.

I'm actually surprised by the price of this loco. It's from bachmann's Spectrum line, so it has a lot of higher detailing, yet it is half the price of the ten-wheeler and still comes with a DCC card. I'll probably end up getting two with the square tanks and one of the saddles, and am hoping to eventually end up with three of the ten-wheelers. That should finish off my standard-gauge lineup at least.

Oh I forgot to ask... what's the monster in the front of your third picture? Is it really that much bigger than the 0-6-0T and 4-6-0, or was it just the camera angle? The 6's look dwarfed in between that front one and the rusted-out loco in the rear.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Interesting info. As was this bit from wikiknowitall...

"1878: Henry K. Porter continued the business on his own, as H.K. Porter & Co. He had established a reputation as a builder of rugged, specialized locomotives. He could custom build a locomotive quickly and efficiently, with a system of interchangeable parts; pistons, wheels and boilers in various sizes that can be combined to suit a customer's requirements. Some of the basic designs were kept in stock, and could be ordered literally 'off the shelf'."




Shdwdrgn said:


> Oh I forgot to ask... what's the monster in the front of your third picture? Is it really that much bigger than the 0-6-0T and 4-6-0, or was it just the camera angle? The 6's look dwarfed in between that front one and the rusted-out loco in the rear.


That's the 2-10-0 Decapod in the front & ol' rustbucket is a 2-8-0 Consolidation (with the leading truck missing). No camera trickery, they're that much bigger.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Yeah that makes sense about the size. My ten-wheeler looks tiny next to my 2-6-0 and 0-4-0, which is why I had the sudden concern about what I was going to do for yard equipment. To me smaller looks older, and the ten-wheeler looks like it fits right in with my HOn3 2-8-0.

Thanks once again to everyone for all the great info!


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

I would point out that the Russian decapods were being built for the Russian government during World War I. A couple hundred were stranded when the Communists overthrew the Czar and voided the order. In that time period the U.S. government took over the U.S. rail system (the USRA) and distributed these locos to several different railroads. They had to get new extra-wide tires for the drivers since the locos were built to Russia's 5 foot gauge. The pilot truck and tender wheels also had be replaced or regauged. A few lasted into the 50's, and a couple have been preserved. There is one in operating condition at the Illinois RR Museum.


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

Hey, just popped up in the Union Station section - photos of two New Haven locos from around the 1890's - a 4-4-0 and an 0-6-0 that would fall right in your period.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Nice, I don't normally check in that area so I would have missed it! That 0-6-0 looks right in line with what I'm looking at, but I'm not sure about the 4-4-0. Judging by the people standing next to it I'd guess that loco is at least a couple feet taller and has a larger boiler on it. Good info about the domes in that thread too, I had always thought the fluted domes were the older model.

[edit] Oops, I read that wrong. I though it said the 4-4-0 was from the 1860's, not the 1890's... So I guess the fluted domes ARE older.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I finally got the chance to put the tsunami into my 4-6-0 yesterday. Made a mistake already, I had read that the board already in the tender provided the resistance needed for the LED headlight. That may have wrong, it only seems to provide resistance when in DC mode. I can't tell if I simply have no working headlight, or if it's just not turning on. I can't seem to get ANY of the function keys to work. For example, F2 should blow the whistle, and F8 should mute all of the sounds. Since I've never tried to use functions under DCC++ before I don't actually know where the problem lies.

[Edit] I figured out the function problem, but I'm still not getting a whistle. Instead all I get is the sound of static. I've tried changing to a number of different whistle sounds and they all just sound like static. Makes me wonder if someone forgot to load those sounds into this chip? [end edit]

So the circuit board that come pre-installed in the tender... does that do anything except provide DC functionality? I mean do I really need to keep that board in there if I'm wiring for DCC? It takes up quite a bit of space and prevents me from using any kind of baffle behind the speaker, so hopefully I can just trash it.

By the way, loving the back-EMF feature of the tsunami to adjust sound volume! I didn't even notice it until one of the pilot wheels derailed and I pulled back the loco to get it back on the track. I also warmed up the 3D printer to make a small baffle for my speaker (currently running without the tender shell in place) and even a small one makes a noticeable difference. I'll have to whip up something a little better once I know how much space I have to work with.

Oh, I should also ask... what are the proper number of chuffs per driver revolution? I thought it was four but that just seems too fast.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I designed a better speaker baffle and printed it up last night, wow the sound was even more incredible. I had to turn down the volume but was able to start fine-tuning the equalizer. The new baffle has a slot that is a perfect fit for the speaker to sit in, plus a couple openings for the wires to come out through. I think I'll be mounting this speaker to the tender floor since there's no room to add a speaker under the coal load (where I could hide the sound holes).

I'm still having trouble with the whistle, but apparently the sounds ARE in the chip. I found that F9 signals a grade crossing, and as far as I can tell that also uses the same whistle sound files? Well the grade crossing sounded off just fine, which makes me think the whistle effect is working fine. However whenever I hit F2 or F3 (long and short whistle) I just get a static sound. Or maybe it's a hiss? It certainly doesn't sound like a whistle.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

In regard to tenders and steam-era switchers: I had been looking at an unlettered Bachmann 0-6-0 to match up with a Spokane, Portland & Seattle caboose and my collection of Pacific Northwest-themed wooden reefers - but the Bachmann has a coal tender and all of the SP&S's 0-6-0's were oil-burners.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I converted my Bachmann 0-6-0 to a 2-6-0 and replaced the original slope-back tender with a larger long-haul tender to give it a different look (both were made by Bachmann). You might be able to find a suitable wood tender to pair with an existing loco, or just cut out the coal and kit-bash the tender into what you are looking for.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

It gets back to the old "What's close enough for you?" question. Portland, OR was a "bring your own coal" town, and of the 7 SP&S 0-6-0's, 6 were assigned to either Portland or Vancouver, WA (and therefore oil-burners). Although it's not an exact match, the Bachmann is "close enough" to Northern Pacific 924 and I suppose it's not implausible that an NP switcher could be moving 3 cars and an SP&S caboose around the Pasco hump yard. But for the same $$$ I can get a Kato non-DCC Northern Pacific NW2, and there are pics of one of those in the Pasco yard. Decisions, decisions.


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

I don't have immediate access to the actual Bachmann model, but it looks from the catalog pics like the simulated coal does not extend too high. You might measure the coal pocket space and head to a crafts store like Michael's and look for a small plastic jewelry box that could drop into the space right over top of the coal. Paint it black, glue in place, and maybe get an oil hatch brass part from someone like Precision.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

Bachmann's parts department has a Vanderbilt tender (with a GN herald) for the HO 0-6-0, but not in N.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Hey Stumpy... I was gifted an 0-6-0T and have it on the tracks, but I noticed neither the forward or reverse lights are working (even after flipping on F0). Can you tell me if yours work? I'm curious if these are real lights or just dummy lenses in these units.

Otherwise, thanks for the recommendation! This little guy is definitely gonna be a great yard loco for me.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Yes, both lights work on mine.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Well it's good to know they *should* work. I don't get how they can both be bad, I'm still using the stock DCC decoder and haven't touched anything inside.

Oh wait... do you have to enable F0 before your lights come on? I wonder if my current version of DCC++ESP32 is broken for functions?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

On my Digitrax controller, once I have the loco selected, I hit the 0 (zero) button and the lights come on.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

OK, I bet that's it then... which makes me think, maybe the soundtraxx tsunami is the same way and I have to turn on the lights before they show? That would be great news, since I forgot to include the resistor when I wired it (I know my ten-wheeler has an LED light, but I don't know if it came with an inline resistor or relied on something from the original DC board).


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I’m no expert on the rio grand but I would imagine if you’re looking to use it as a road loco then I would go with bigger drivers and bigger tender. If it’s for an industrial application go with the smaller of the two. I would imagine the smaller loco would be either an older model late 1800s maybe? And the bigger one early 1900s? Those would be switching locos in the era I’m modeling so I’m not much help with this one


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