# New to forum; I have decoded track cleaning



## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

This is more accurate. The explaination will be lengthy, since many modellers may not realize that the profile and texture of the track we purchase is incorrect, any scale. I too grew up in the 'BriteBoy' age, and have found the ideal cure for mundane chore. In simple terms, I now clean track when I _want_ to, not have to.
A particular test project, involving about 1000 feet of code 83 and 100 HO Atlas track, over the past 6 years, have shown very positive results. A few other small projects were done, and also with lasting effect.:thumbsup:

First, a wheel profile is not by accident. The beveled riding surface helps the trucks by nestling to center on the straight ways, and the larger radius on the inner edges compensate somewhat for the longer travel of the outside rail on curves. The flanges are not straight up-and-down on the guiding surface. There is a slight bevel inwards toward the 'cutter' edges of the bevel, too. It helps to prevent 'picking' on track edges at joints, points, and frogs. So the flange to wheel inner angle is greater than 90%, more like 100%. The track is 90%. OK, the hobby mfrs got this right.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks needed a good bed time story, putting me right to sleep! Are you going to get to the point anytime soon?
And I do believe you meant to say 90 deg not 90 percent!


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

So sorry, I did say lengthy, and yes, I did mean 90 degree.

Next we look at the track profile. Why are model tracks made with a flat-top railhead? Since the wheel has a beveled riding surface, then the actual point of contact is only on the inner edges. I suppose that 'good enough' was accepted, and we all suffer. What do I mean? I summized that the domed top on real rail ensures a more even loading and smoother ride, so I simply made my railhead domed.

Also important to us modellers is the dire need for a seamless electrical path to our locos. By contouring a dome on the railhead, with 400, then 600 grit wet/dry paper on a suitable wooden block, you also remove many blemishes, uneven plane, and smoothen the surface and any rail stock ends that may cause derailment. I start by removing enough spoil on the railhead to achieve the contour, wipe away the spoil with dry cotton tee-shirt rag, no chemicals. I also consider the flange faces, I sand them, working the inner edges rounding the top and slightly past. Then wipe that spoil. Feel the railhead with your fingertip and slide along. Wow, that is nice!.

What of the 'Black Crud"? A recent test at a research lab confirmed it is nickel oxide, (Nickel rail was tested), which is conductive, but not in heavy amounts. The oxide is produced naturally, but also by the arcing of the current between the rail and wheels. It will lift the wheel too far off the rail to get enough current. So that means plastic wheels are not the culprit, though they do tack it up and make heavy deposits. But metal wheels do ride much better. Their weight also helps hold the truck down better, lessening derailments.

I now log off to sleep.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

*What a load of.....stinky stuff!*

I'm sorry Semafore but I think I'm going to throw up the big :bs: on this tread! 
I've also been doing model RR for a long time too and I'm pretty sure that if rounded tops of the rails was the answer to all our problems at least one of the manufactures and thousands of rail road modelers would have caught on by now! 
If your theory was correct O and S gauger's would have no problems at all, ever seen the profile of S dead ringer for the real thing and O is round not flat, But they have the same exact problems as HO, OO, TT, N, Z, T!
You do know that it's spelled Semaphore right?


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

My dear friend NIMT I'm not done. Remember when the world believed the earth was flat? Things were pretty limited until the realization that the curvature was the answer. Besides, it doesn't get really rounded, but just a slight curvature as on REAL track. Mfrs don't do it because no one ever considered the relationship was important, or even there. It it cheaper to just place extruded rail on the ties, as I am sure any further processing would raise the cost to make, and the retail price. 
Now, if I may get to the point without the interjections from the class. I must do separate posts so you may absorb the physics behind my study. I am not an science engineer or MIT stuff, but I am a 30-year LOW VOLTAGE contractor and longer modeller. I always despised the incesant cleaning too. I started on BRASS rail, which will tarnish before your eyes....


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Semafore said:


> My dear friend NIMT I'm not done. Remember when the world believed the earth was flat? Things were pretty limited until the realization that the curvature was the answer. Besides, it doesn't get really rounded, but just a slight curvature as on REAL track. Mfrs don't do it because no one ever considered the relationship was important, or even there. It it cheaper to just place extruded rail on the ties, as I am sure any further processing would raise the cost to make, and the retail price.
> Now, if I may get to the point without the interjections from the class. I must do separate posts so you may absorb the physics behind my study. I am not an science engineer or MIT stuff, but I am a 30-year LOW VOLTAGE contractor and longer modeller. I always despised the incesant cleaning too. I started on BRASS rail, which will tarnish before your eyes....


And after so many posts you can transform from a Hobo too.

Hobo 0 
Gang Labourer 50
Brakeman 100
Conductor 250
Engineer 500
Dispatcher 1000
Station Master 2500
Yard Master 5000
Train Master 7500
Railroad Baron 10000 

And there should be RR tycoon for over 25,000.


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

The final step to the track conditioning I do is to burnish the rail. This means you force a hardened finish on the metal by rubbing and applying pressure with a harder metal. I use Stainless Steel, a 1/2" cut washer, rounded edge to the rail. I impart this finish over the entire area that I sanded. burnishing forces the rail metal into itself, making the finish like a mirror, to resist corrosion and oxidation. Blacksmiths used this method to make tools, weapons, and armour shine. There wasn't Chrome for a long time.

Then wipe the spoil. Done. The finish is so smooth, I can hear the electric motor of a loco over the wheels. The electrical contact is virtually seamless, Locos can pull on a true scale ratio. DCC behaves! 
An Atlas GP30 can haul 30+cars on the level. I suspect an AC4400 would pull twice that. Even more significant is the significant decrease in Drag. It seems to be reduced on the standard radius by 90%. One test involved 2 Articulated Pennsy 2-8-8-2's haling a 40-car NMRA std coal drag up and down our 10-coil 2-lane Helix. 1.6% actual grade, 2.5% Factored Drag, Helper style. No Sweat. Upgrade, there was no slippage. If there was, it was so quiet you couldn't hear any chatter. On the downgrade, there was slack between the locos. Each loco was checking their share!

To close, I am now spending 1% of 1% time to clean rail with a wipe. No Unproto-typical cleaning cars for me. Too many trains to operate! 

This entire process is laborious at the onset, but is done only once, afterwards a dry wipe is all that is needed. The large project I have underway is in it's 6th year now. No other fellow modeller has ever needed to BB the track ever. All trains run smooth, even a Bachman Gandy Dancer took 45 minutes to creep only 25 feet, over turnout frogs too, without stall. Anywhere a train is stopped, it will start, no hesitance.
I did this only once, for the cost of a washer, some sand paper, and a small wooden block. But at 10 minutes to do three feet of track, most would consider this insane. But for 6 years now, all I've done was an occasional dry wipe. No BB, cleaners, cleaning cars, nuthin'! Used cotton tees are free. I am way beyond the Brite Boy Age!

I did what Yoda said; " Unlearn what you have learned." So I did. All that I ever heard and read about track cleaning was put in an imaginary box, then I threw the box out. I started with the physics approach, and found this anwer. I am glad all the other stuff was tried, so I already new what didn't work.
Be bold. Do a three-foot section, monitor it. Compare the finish, luster, and train behavior over just a week. Then feed back, OK?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

So, you're the only person on the planet that has discovered this "secret"? Why is it you're not rich from the patent royalties?


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

you know, you're sarcasm has me intigued. I think I will patent this, and you can buy the product from me, rather than take the free advice.....


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

well its worth a try hey its free advice, if it works it works, if not then now...its your RR do what works for you ok people....its just simple...heck I may try this just because I can


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Semafore said:


> you know, you're sarcasm has me intigued. I think I will patent this, and you can buy the product from me, rather than take the free advice.....




And charge him double!:laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You suppose I'm actually buying all of this, or would purchase any of it. I have a problem when someone new shows up and starts making pompous claims of having discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

There's a lot of pretty smart folks doing model railroading, and to suppose that you're the only one that has discovered the hidden secrets of track maintenance is pretty arrogant IMO. 

Patent away, I'm not worried about keeping the track clean. :laugh:


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

But if you buy now GRJ he'll double your order, just pay separate shipping and handling..


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You suppose I'm actually buying all of this, or would purchase any of it. I have a problem when someone new shows up and starts making pompous claims of having discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
> 
> There's a lot of pretty smart folks doing model railroading, and to suppose that you're the only one that has discovered the hidden secrets of track maintenance is pretty arrogant IMO.
> 
> Patent away, I'm not worried about keeping the track clean. :laugh:



here I just like i said in other posts, take a nice scotch bright sponge pad and clean the tracks like that...so far its working for me, thinking of making my own custom car too...honestly yea i do monthly track cleaning but thats because I run my train(s) every day....but yea im on month two of my personal experiment and so far my trains run well and im going to see how long i can go before I have to clean the tracks (nickle steel) and so far im two months in from when I cleaned them...

as for your coment...I agree, I am kinda skeptical of things when the person is relitivly new to the group/forums and suddenly making claims...it may or may not be true who knows...but yea im just a bit on the skeptical side...


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Semafore said:


> Next we look at the track profile. Why are model tracks made with a flat-top railhead? Since the wheel has a beveled riding surface, then the actual point of contact is only on the inner edges ...


Keeping an open mind, as the rational thinker I am, at first I thought you may - MAY - have had a point. But I just looked at the wheels of an N scale engine on a piece of Kato track and it appears that the wheels touch the top of the track, as far as I can see under a magnifying glass, flatly. 

Do you not see it this way?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For O-gauge, it depends on the vintage of the cars and the type of track. Fastrack has a flat top and rounded sides, tubular track is.... well _tubular_. Older PW cars have flat or nearly flat wheel angles, newer cars with the fast angle wheels will tend to ride more on the side of the track.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Semafore said:


> ... I must do separate posts so you may absorb the physics behind my study...


No you don't have to. Merged the posts for you, please keep them together.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I don't see where the secret is? One towel, one bottle of 90percent isypropyl alcohol and bam brand new cleaned HO track.


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> I don't see where the secret is? One towel, one bottle of 90percent isypropyl alcohol and bam brand new cleaned HO track.


What HE said!! Amen!


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

JackC said:


> But if you buy now GRJ he'll double your order, just pay separate shipping and handling..


And if you mention the _special code_ below.....we'll throw in a patented water hammer at no extra charge!


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm thinking someone's trolley fell off the tracks!


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You suppose I'm actually buying all of this, or would purchase any of it. I have a problem when someone new shows up and starts making pompous claims of having discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
> 
> There's a lot of pretty smart folks doing model railroading, and to suppose that you're the only one that has discovered the hidden secrets of track maintenance is pretty arrogant IMO.
> 
> Patent away, I'm not worried about keeping the track clean. :laugh:





NIMT said:


> I'm thinking someone's trolley fell off the tracks!


nah just the caboose  anyways the sponge method works well too


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

Yea, Yea.... Obviously there are some who are blinded by thier pride. I am blinded by the finish, that's the difference. And to those throwing stones, Prove Me Wrong!


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

The fact that I am a newbie giving you an edge by freeing up your time to model rather than clean, and to operate more realistically could be a little more appreciated. I was heckeled on every post. Maybe this is too hostile a forum!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Semafore said:


> Yea, Yea.... Obviously there are some who are blinded by thier pride. I am blinded by the finish, that's the difference. And to those throwing stones, Prove Me Wrong!


I made a rational post of my observations of your claims and you are choosing to ignore it.

Why?


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

xrunner said:


> I made a rational post of my observations of your claims and you are choosing to ignore it.
> 
> Why?


Ever hear the old adage...never try to argue with a (Insert your own descriptor here) person???


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

You know this is kinda mundane... Why are we picking on this guy? Did you guys know when Loram runs the grinders on the track...a 4 car train with a left cutter a center cutter and a right cutter... So if someone wants a prototypical to the rails this guy is right in the sense of the rail cut.

The criticism and arrogance not to mention some of the immature belittling is far beyond retarded we are grown men here and some of you guys are 50+ yrs old


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Semafore,

Via a little Google searching, I see you've made this same pitch for the so-called GLEAM method on other train forums over the years. Nothing wrong with that, and we appreciate your joining in with our forum to help spread/discuss a new or unconventional helpful idea. In that, our stalwart gang of modeltrainheads here are always happy to learn and swap new ideas, tips, etc.

That said, I have to say that your approach has been a little bit of the "holier than thou" soapbox speech. The mystical first few-post teasers ... the attempted stepwise suspenseful buildup to the details. You leave me wondering if you are a carnival show gypsy or game operator ... "Step right up folks ... Wonders like you've never imagined! Fortunes to be told!"

I'm not trying to be mean here, but rather just paint you a picture of how things are likely perceived from the readers' perspective.

Again ... we like new ideas, and are generally happy to discuss them. But your "make new friends" approach could use some polish or burnishing itself.

TJ


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

My apologies to the more inquisitive. I can't respond to that as my research was HO. but all theories hold true at any scale. If the proto-type rails were any measure, why do track crews regrind the railhead with a dome? So that any excess rainwater and debris have much less of a surface to stand on, and true square inner edge would eat up the wheels. The dome negates that. In my further observation, as trains pass over the trated rails, the wheels eventually get that realistic polished look, too. Again, most scaling seems to have more importance that a rivet is exact. It may be that I am the first to see or report this angle on track/wheel relationship.


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

point taken delete me.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Semafore said:


> Yea, Yea.... Obviously there are some who are blinded by thier pride. I am blinded by the finish, that's the difference. And to those throwing stones, Prove Me Wrong!The fact that I am a newbie giving you an edge by freeing up your time to model rather than clean, and to operate more realistically could be a little more appreciated. I was heckeled on every post. Maybe this is too hostile a forum!



Well I guess you are blinded by the finish of the rail!

You say you were heckled on EVERY post?
I did no heckling and Xrunner did none too!

Go back and read!

Tank, there are another 2 posts of his that you can merge together.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

That's my point we at Loram do this while watching our cuts on a computer


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Semafore said:


> but all theories hold true at any scale. If the proto-type rails were any measure, why do track crews regrind the railhead with a dome?


Because real tracks carry real (heavy) trains, and models tracks don't. The physics of a model train does not require what is explained in the following video, please watch and respond.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

It's quite possible that this burnishing technique has some merit from a cleaning perspective.

For me - 10 min for a 3 ft section means I would have over 1000 straight minutes (over 16 hours) of hand burnishing ahead of me. 

I just run my MOW cleaner train.

As for the shape of the rails, if the curved top was better for model RR, why wouldn't the manufacturers just extrude it in the shape with the curved dome. It's not that different from a tooling standpoint. (Mechanical Engineer here)

I guess it's all in how you look at it.

I have to agree that the method of posting (cryptic, I know more than everyone tone) was a bit off-putting.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Semafore said:


> point taken delete me.


Did we mention you have to be a little more thick-skinned too? As TJ said, you came in with a couple of stone tablets under your arm telling us how it is. I don't know about other folks but my bogometer runs off scale when that kind of post hits as the first entries from a new member.

Get to know us, we may not be as ignorant as you have been led to believe.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

I did see and track grinding train go by work. It was the only time that i have seen cannons mounted on caboose. It was odd seeing people standing guard of a moving train, I wish I had one of those water cannons to wash this thread with.:laugh:


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

You have no clue how many fires we started cause of the sparks flying lol!


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

ya I do, I have called them in to the FD. dumb *** dispatch argued with me about where the fire was. She told me that a fire truck was at the fire. there were miles of small fire all along the tracks.


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm a bit confused!! How is domed rails going to make the task of cleaning tracks easier??

Pat


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I was waiting for the semafore to pop in and say "Hi I'm Paul Harvey and now the rest of the story!
Prospect193, I think we are all wondering the same thing!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's the gleaming part I assume??

I searched this and it's model railroader apparently


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

Could there be merit to this?? And what the hack is gleaming??


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

What I get from it is pollishing the rail to remove pores or imperfections from the rail?


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

Grabbem88 said:


> What I get from it is pollishing the rail to remove pores or imperfections from the rail?


I'm pretty sure that's what he was getting at but there are a few "practical" reasons for not even worrying about it in Model RR:

1. Someone said it earlier.....our trains don't have the weight/mass to do damage to the rails.....basically, it works....why mess with it? 

2. What about traction? If we make nice shiny rail heads, I'm pretty sure we sacrifice traction if we polish the rails....so again, if it works...why mess with it?? 

3. Might it improve conductivity? Sure, but again...what we have works.....why mess with it?? 

4. The materials our tracks are made from......I'm pretty sure its much softer than real steel rails.....we start grinding away on them and we risk changing the guage width or otherwise distorting them.....what we have works....why mess with it?? 

More importantly, why give us all that nose-in-the-air verbage? Why not just spit out the concept? Talk about alienating an audience! 

Ok......so anyone sensing a theme here? 

Jim


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

I think the task of track cleaning is supposed to be easier by not allowing as much gap between the loco wheels and track head. In the comm world, we do this as well because the spark gap will cause oxidation. THe oxidation is what builds up on the track (as well as dust) and hence makes for poor electrical conduction. So by eliminating the gap (or reducing it) we cut down the spark and therefore cut down the oxidation.

But quite frankly, while I understand the logic and physics involved, I still have to agree that if this were the cure-all for track cleaning, why would the model comapnies just make this track from the factory? And dont tell me that its for the sales of track cleaners, because some of us dont run them. I still hand clean my track and I'm content with that.


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

cabledawg said:


> I still hand clean my track and I'm content with that.


Amen!:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Southern said:


> I did see and track grinding train go by work. It was the only time that i have seen cannons mounted on caboose. It was odd seeing people standing guard of a moving train, I wish I had one of those water cannons to wash this thread with.:laugh:


Ohh!!!

I'm having an embarrasing "Duhh Moment" ...

I watched the Loram track grinding video last night. Sparks flying everwhere. And then, as the consist passes, I see two guys hanging out on the rear of the caboose. "Jeez," I though ... "What a cushy job ... machines do all the work, and these guys just stand around ..."

And at the same time, I thought ... "Man, with all of those sparks, you'd think there'd be brush fires all over the place ..."

So ... my Duhh Moment ...

W-A-T-E-R C-A-N-N-O-N-S

C'mon, everyone ... let's all say it together ... W-A-T-E-R ...

:retard:

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Ohh!!!
> 
> I'm having an embarrasing "Duhh Moment" ...
> 
> ...


The last picture, it looks more like they are taking a wiz then putting out fires. 

*Loram Rail Grinder Train RG306


http://www.krunk.org/~joeshaw/pics/loram/
*


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

It's possible that the model track (I can only speak for N scale) is made flat for more surface contact area for traction purposes. The way real track is designed, as explained in the video, isn't a requirement for models, well, because they are just models, and the friction caused by the flanges touching the rails just isn't of any consequence.

Sure, it could be made that way, I don't see why not, but my suspicion is that flat rails make for more surface contact for a model engine,


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## Semafore (Mar 3, 2012)

I will sign off with this: I did formally introduce myself in a different thread; I inquired if anyone was interested in my content, had a request, and then I began the subsequent posts.I was trying to spread news of a technique which is done once, then only dry-wiped for maintenanace. My first intent was to let others know about it. Now I will be quiet. One other forum member quoted 'If he came to my door explaining the technique I would have measured him for a straight-jacket.' After he tried it himself, he was lauding the style.
My apologies to the 'Forum Kings'. My zeal to free modellers' time will have to be quelled.
I do not profess to be 'Holier than thou', there are enough chosen ones to do that.
Please forage on for another method, for as it was put, there usually is more than one answer, and it's not always the first one. But the quest we all desire is the right one.
Goodbye and keep modelling.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Semafore said:


> I do not profess to be 'Holier than thou', there are enough chosen ones to do that.


Then why don't you engage me in conversation about your claims? I have asked questions and presented ideas you ignore them? Is that any way to do business in a forum?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think we insulted him and he's not coming back.  I wonder how many other forums he has had a similar experience in?


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

I looked beyond semaphor's attitude, and tried burnishing some HO nickel sliver track with a flat 3 inch finely machined square of stainless steel...

...and man oh man, it looks *really* purdy. 

I give the guy points just for appearance.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm sure it does look good but ManchesterJim raises a good point, what about traction? Have you tried running thru that section yet?


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Just brain storming here but what if you got an engine or steamer that fights a certain turn on your layout... Not so much as doing the burnishing part but the dome cut would it help or hinder it?

Now I can see the burnishing killing traction on the same curve as well... So I do something that some would never do but hey it works.. I take my dremel and shave the frame just a tad where the truck hits the stops so to speak and my train doesn't bind up or derail.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not saying he didn't have some good ideas, it's just the bedside manner that needs work.


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