# NYC F3 2344..Now I know why. Learned the hard way.



## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Now I know why the veterans and serious hobbyists here repair, restore and service their own components. I'm disapointed, frustrated and just plain pissed off with the recent repair of our NYC F3. I got into this hobby over a year ago and got sidetracked having just recently decided to get re aquainted with it. I had initially planned on fully restoring our NYC F3 set but decided against it having come to appreciate the "weathered" and well used look of this family heirloom. I took the main powered unit in to have new axles, gears, bushings and wheels installed and the trucks freshened up. I also had a new e unit to go in as well.





​To make a long story short after a week and a half and $90.00 spent (I supplied the parts) we're nowhere. Got it home and it went about a foot on the track and shorted out from a frayed wire chaffing on the frame. Took it back and got it the same day which I appreciated but then all hell broke loose.

She was laboring on the track from the get go and wouldn't move with anything less than 14 volts. No slow or medium speeds only fast and extremely labored at that. I let it run around the track 5 or 6 times hoping it just needed to be broken in. Then she came to a grinding halt. I immediately shut down the transformer, picked up the engine and burned my finger tips so badly on the front truck I nearly went to the emergency room. Two finger tips badly burned and now blistered. The rear was also very hot but still ok to the touch. Fortunately I dropped it over our rec room sofa which is right next to the table so no additional damage was done. 

I will never take anything in for service again. I'm that pissed off. I'll either learn from the experienced hobbyists here or throw in the towel. This is either an all in or all out hobby from what I've gathered so time to get serious if we're ever going to see this set run smoothly again.

To me that much heat = friction. Anyone care to help a newbie out with examining, diagnosing and repairing this issue? As far as I'm concerned the trucks need to be completely gone through and tested along with both motors. Thanks in advance to anyone who can lend a helping hand.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Take some pictures of the inside, friction maybe, probably a short someware. Bloodhound, you can fix it, mostly time( we all have some of that to spare) . Take it apart, check the worm gears, replace old hardened grease. Check all the wires. Lets start there!


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

Bloodhound, you have come to the right place to get assistance with your problem. There are some expert modeler/mechanics on this forum who will be glad to share their expertise with you. Fortunately, your model's mechanism is a very common one owned by many Lionel modelers, which will help greatly in diagnosing and remedying your difficulty. I'm looking forward to learning as you do so.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

sjm9911 said:


> Take some pictures of the inside, friction maybe, probably a short someware. Bloodhound, you can fix it, mostly time( we all have some of that to spare) . Take it apart, check the worm gears, replace old hardened grease. Check all the wires. Lets start there!


Ok will do and thank you for your help. I'll start breaking it down tomorrow with lots of pictures to post step by step. One observation I made during it's brief run was a wobbling back and forth of the front truck shield. Now that the engine is cool I flipped it upside down and rotated the wheels on the front truck by hand. It locks up solid every few turns...IMMOVABLE unless I reverse the rotation and start over. Also, one of the front wheels isn't pressed on straight and is cockeyed on the axle. Already problems and haven;t turned a screw!



rrbill said:


> Bloodhound, you have come to the right place to get assistance with your problem. There are some expert modeler/mechanics on this forum who will be glad to share their expertise with you. Fortunately, your model's mechanism is a very common one owned by many Lionel modelers, which will help greatly in diagnosing and remedying your difficulty. I'm looking forward to learning as you do so.


Thanks rrbill. Everyone here has been more than generous in helping with my newbie issues. It's most appreciated. I'm looking forward to doing this once and doing it right now that I have help.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

That definitely sounds like a short. Whoever you took it to is a hack. I would love to have a piece like that.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The worm motors are hard to turn by hand, they do turn but not too much. Resistance is normal, the wheel is not normal.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Start here:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2333.htm

The 2333 is identical as the 2344 as far as mechanicals go. Start by removing the shell, it's simple. 2 screws hold the motor to the trucks. Spin each motor by hand, it should have a little resistance, but not be hard to turn. Also check and see how free the wheels spin without the motor attached, again a little resistance but not difficult.

Carl


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## captaincog (Oct 7, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I would suggest that once you find out what was done wrong and get it corrected let the person that did not do it right know. Try to be nice but be firm that you were not happy. The worst that can happen is that the person ignores you. Take a breath and take a good look at your engine. They are really good runners that will last forever. The thing that stops them the most seems to be old hard dried grease in the motors and gearboxes. Get that corrected along with clean brushes and you will be good to go for another 50+ years.


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

*A bit of effort, time and the right peeps...*

My first big Lionel was a well-used SF #2343 ABA in the late 50s, a twin to your NYCs. I was too young and clued out to learn how to fix it, but it got me past my fear of basic electronics for trains. Now, I wouldn't hesitate to work with nearly any postwar piece, but here's where the "peeps (people)" come in. Several guys who are regular contributors to this forum can provide excellent how-to's (many with pix) and will chime in to help if you pay attention. Another big thing is having a reliable and well-stocked repair parts guy. I highly recommend Jeff at The Train Tender. There are many suppliers out there, but none of them could possibly be better than Jeff at helping. He will probably suggest buying the roughly 20-dollar Greenberg postwar repairs book. It's invaluable and explains much of the inner workings of nearly any Lionel engine, transformer, car, operating mechanism, etc. from the postwar period. Jeff often goes to great lengths to explain what can be done to repair a mechanism like yours, and it's really not difficult.
I get you're at a crossroads with people who will take your money but not fix the item well enough. There are many totally reliable repair people out there, but why not relax and find your way into the repair side of things? It's fun and if a klutz like me can learn and fix many Lionel postwar trains and accessories without it taking that much time or money, so can you!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just another idea, I was looking at our other threads. They were around the same time. What if the collector assembly insulator is bad or missing? Would explain that truck getting hot and the loss of power to the engine. Or just a broken wire in the power truck. Just a few other ideas.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Check out 2333 on a tag search. I used bearings instead of bushings. The wheels are brittle so use care when removing. I made a pair of forks to fit under the wheel and punched them out. For the worm gear placement make some spacers when you press the wheels back on.
That is for the truck rebuild.

The motors I would remove and bench test as a set without removing any wires.

Good Luck.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

sjm9911 said:


> Just another idea, I was looking at our other threads. They were around the same time. What if the collector assembly insulator is bad or missing? Would explain that truck getting hot and the loss of power to the engine. Or just a broken wire in the power truck. Just a few other ideas.


I actually had that problem a couple days ago on my 3620. Rewired the whole car. Put it back together and when I put it on the track with some voltage it did literally nothing and the wheels were super hot. I was scratching my head for 10 minutes trying to figure I out. Than I went back to my work bench and sure enough. I left the insulator washer off. 

On another note those greenburg books are amazing. U can actually buy the PDF versions for like 5 bucks


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I want to start by thanking everyone for their guidance and instruction. I'll be slow going as I learn so I'll try not to bore you all to death if I can help it. :laugh:

Step one... Shell removed. I've looked things over carefully and don't see any frayed wires or broken connections. Still, to the untrained eye I may have passed something over...















Then it was on to the trucks. 















Looks to me like the collector insulator is different than what's pictured and I don't see the insulating spacers as shown in the diagram either...​


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

That wire does look a little torched. Did you order the parts for the truck?where did you get them?


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I had ordered the complete collector assembly from the train tender long ago along with new wheels, axles, bushings and worm gear assemblies..... Haven't tried to remove the trucks from the frame yet in the hopes we spot anything obvious early on.

Aside from the missing insulating spacers I too noticed that the terminal solder lug wire on the collector frame looks ratty. The lug itself is also bent up. Perhaps it was arching or making contact with the bottom of the truck? It also seems awfully close to one side of the shoe spring. Still, I'm guessing it should be bent up ever so slightly as to not make contact with the collector frame?


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

The flattened wire only sees power from the special track used to operate the coupler. It looks like you'll need to be carefull and pull it thru all the way. The insulator looks different because it's designed so you don't need to unsolder the wire to the shoe. 

http://www.traindoctor.com/service/images/2333-034.jpg

Don't worry about boring us, we're here to help you get the old gal back on track. Remember the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

Carl


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

The inside of the 2344 looks pretty good as far as general wear and tear goes, so I think you're close to finding out what the problem is. If you haven't already, examine all wheelsets, gears, brushes, wells, etc. for a small piece of wiring or metal that is causing the shorting. It may be so small it could be almost unnoticeable, or it could be that one of the axles or wheels are shorting against the truck. Check that someone didn't make a mistake and resolder a wire to the wrong spot. You're close to finding it...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't have this locomotive and never worked on one, but a couple of my observations from looking at the pictures.








Anyone know about these things I see?

The yellow arrows, this does not look normal? It should be rerouted? Check carefully for rubbing/bare wires on this wire? It is smashing down on the collector spring too, that is not right?

The blue arrow, would this affect anything if the collector spring is touching the shoe spring? 

The red arrow, what is the red I see on there? Is that contacting anything when it is together maybe shorting something out? 
Or is that your blood from your bleeding fingers?

Check the wire connections on the e unit and motor carefully too.

Side note,
Did you say you replaced the light bulb? While your at it, check that the insulator on the end of the wire is good also.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The crushed wire as was said is for the coupler. It might be a problem if the power is feeding into it directly from the pick up? I don't know but it should be addressed. There are two wires on the top side that were repaired, they have the extra insulation sleeve on them . That might be were there problem is. Also did anyone else think the arm on one side of the pick up assembly looks a little off, like its bent? Could it be catching on an outside rail? Also do the rollers look a bit sparked, pitted, that would show the cause is a short in the wires with that power truck.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Truck removal is easy, just remove the two vertical screws on the motor. If I remember correctly a horseshoe clip is under that. Nice pictures!:thumbsup:

I would trim that spring down too.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I went ahead and re-examined everything by way of rotating the wheels, motors and trucks by hand. The first thing I noticed was that the front of the forward motor would occasionally make contact with the light socket....





Then I removed the two bolts that hold on the front engine. The truck immediately parted from the frame as there was no horseshoe clip present. I went further and decided to remove the collector assy to closer inspect the shoe wire. It didn't look so bad from this angle but who knows...



I rotated the wheels again and the left front which was cockeyed would rub against either the wheel guard or truck. I removed the wheel guards and observed the following. Right rear looks the same and the right front shows evidence of being damaged as well...













What ever happened to honesty and integrity? Why in the name of all that is holy would this ******* send this out the door like this? Even the E-unit looks corroded and I distinctly recall giving him a super clean replacement. The bearing for the worm gear shaft seems excessively worn as well. Everything I gave him was new. I'm at a complete loss having closely inspected the quality of the "work" that was done for myself. 
​


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

In looking at things, the guy is a hack. The wheels being damaged likely points to bent axles as well. If someone supplied me 100% new parts, I'd send all the old parts back (goes to a state law for mechanics here). I would also thoroughly test my final assembly to ensure all is right. A shame you spent good money for a "pro" to do the work and get results like this. 

The damage to the wheels shows improper tools being used. Almost as if he used a hammer and punch to do the job. IMHO, you're gonna need at least 2 wheels, and axles. 
Carl


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

If there's anyone in the Hamburg NY area that would like to avoid this kind of chaos let me know. I'll gladly steer you away from this "Authorized Lionel Repair Dealer" via PM or a phone call.

I think you hit the nail on the head Carl. Both axle gears aren't even close to tracking straight in the truck. They have more of a wabble than the wheels do. 

I have to decide if I want to take a chance with another dealer once I replace the parts or buy a press and whatever else I need to do this myself and ensure they are done right.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

That's truly a shame get your money back


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## carinofranco (Aug 1, 2012)

Bloodhound said:


> If there's anyone in the Hamburg NY area that would like to avoid this kind of chaos let me know. I'll gladly steer you away from this "Authorized Lionel Repair Dealer" via PM or a phone call.
> 
> I think you hit the nail on the head Carl. Both axle gears aren't even close to tracking straight in the truck. They have more of a wabble than the wheels do.
> 
> I have to decide if I want to take a chance with another dealer once I replace the parts or buy a press and whatever else I need to do this myself and ensure they are done right.


I would file a complaint against this company with the local BBB. I have done this before and was amazed at the response. try it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I appreciate the sentiments guys. I'll do that and more believe me. The best thing for me for right now is to keep calm, undo the damage and start on churning out a legendary restoration. I'm looking forward to learning as I go and making a few friends along the way.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Way to think positive. Learn so you never have to send your locos out to hacks like that


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

njoffroader said:


> Way to think positive. Learn so you never have to send your locos out to hacks like that


EXACTLY!

Curiosity got the best of me so I broke down the rear truck. Looks like another stellar job...No horseshoe clip here either! As if I should be surprised...









She's down to the frame now... Tomorrow I'll drill out the battery cover rivet and remove the broken rear ladder bar. My first purchase is going to be Greenberg's Repair Manual, a wheel puller and that set of O gauge pliers I've been doing without! ​


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Sounds like you have some work ahead, a shame really to spend that time and money for shoddy work. Glad I'll never use him.

Also of note, GET RID OF THAT GREASE!!!!!!!. That stuff will turn into cement in a short time causing problems. Visit your local auto parts store and get Lucas Red'N'Tacky. I know O'reilly has it, it will not harden like the stuff he used. Use 5w-30 or 10w-30 motor oil for all other lube points. It'll last a long time, and never dry out or harden. Avoid the Lionel stuff, 3-n-1, sewing machine, light machine or other oils. Same reasons as the grease they dry out and stick parts.

Carl


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Man idk how that guy butchered those wheels but wow. There all cracked!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I"d be seeing *RED* if I got a repair job like that! I'd most certainly go and get a refund on the work!


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I'll start with that John. I like to take step back and calm down in situations like this. I'll go over there calmly next week once I determine which parts I'd like replaced which I fully expect to be a reasonable request in addition to a full refund.

I took the first step so many of you recommended and ordered the Greenberg's repair manual last night. I didn't see anything on ebay or the web for O gauge track pliers so I'm going to make a set. I have machine shop access so this should be an enjoyable undertaking. If anyone can recommend a source for purchasing the correct wheel puller for the F3 trucks it would be greatly appreciated.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

The track pliers aren't really necessary. Careful use needle nose pliers can reshape the ends that's what I use.

Wheel pullers, try Jeff at ttender to the guys at Brasseurs (traindoctor.com). You'll also need a press and installer cups to do it right. Same guys, or check e-bay


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I wouldn't pull F3 wheels. They are brittle and with two hooks breakage is possible. Unless you have a very nice puller. I would get two putty knives and groove them about 1/4 inch from one edge. Then slide one in on each side. Then suspend over a vise and hit the axle with a drift pin. I did both trucks and was nervous about breaking wheels.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

They are all cracked, broken and compromised T-man. Still, I'll use your method on the non powered A and B unit. I'm gonna do the whole set together. If the good wheels are re usable I'll take special care in removing them!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> I wouldn't pull F3 wheels. They are brittle and with two hooks breakage is possible. Unless you have a very nice puller. I would get two putty knives and groove them about 1/4 inch from one edge. Then slide one in on each side. Then suspend over a vise and hit the axle with a drift pin. I did both trucks and was nervous about breaking wheels.


By the looks of his wheels he needs new ones anyway.:dunno:
What a butcher job the "technician" did! 

I would want money back and new wheels supplied! And if indeed you gave him replacement parts and they were not used I would want them too.
You ought to list him in the hall of shame thread! (if we had one.)
As *The Butcher of Lionel!* He stole your money if you ask me!

This is the main reason I try to do all of my work myself. 
But some things like the wheels and having the proper tools to do it with are expensive and the shops should have them to do a nice job.

And like T said it is easy to break something in the process if you do them yourself.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> By the looks of his wheels he needs new ones anyway.:dunno:
> What a butcher job the "technician" did!


Big Ed, calling him a "technician" is an insult to us technicians out there. As a tech, I took great pride in my work. If I made a mistake I owned up to it and stood behind my work. Had my body not told me it was time to stop, I'd still be at it. 

Call him what he is a hack, a wanna be, a shyster or a butcher 

Carl


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Ed I think its time we make one to ley people known to avoid these people. And we can give good techs good reviews too. That would be sticky material


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I looked to see if the forum had a "Vendor Feedback" section but didn't see anything.....unless I missed it?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

As I said the wheels are brittle. One good thing about using the old wheels is that the axles fit. You had new wheels that have never been fitted. So pressure is important. First how much umph is it going to take. From the amount of pressure it takes, I may use a round file to enlarge the hole. 

So when removing a wheel keep the pressure off the edges and close to the center as possible or the rim will crack.

On pressing the center is recessed. There was no support when the axle came out and CRACK. So use a small washer that will fit. You can also file the outer edge, to enlarge it, to avoid this cracking. I fully understand that these are not easy wheels to work with and your pictures prove my point.

Considering the amount of work to replace a wheel. If they work leave them. If the cracks are minor. Some do look bad. The ends are covered anyways. I would not consider doing the dummies. They can't be that bad can they? On the good side it will give you practice.

I have never used new wheels of this type. My one replacement was used.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Almost 40 years ago, I fixed a broken wheel on my F-3 2353. Apparently it had been dropped as there was a chunk missing out of the wheel. I removed the wheel with a punch and hammer, and brazed it up. I ground it back to shape with a bench grinder and put it back on probably using my drill press or a vise for a press. The wheel is still on the loco.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

UPDATE: I took the broken down trucks back to the shop and showed the owner the issues. I advised him that the collector assembly was also suspect. He was very accepting of my dissatisfaction and advised me that he would address my concerns. He called me a short time ago to let me know they have been repaired. He installed another collector assembly and advised me that he had a NYC dummy chassis he would like to give me in case I need parts in the future. He also offered to deliver them to me and apologized for my inconvenience. Will let you all know the result when I look them over.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Well. Looks like it isn't going to happen. Just got them back and at least two wheels are crooked and the worm shaft gears are off center. At least one axle is bent and 2 wheels are rubbing on the truck sides. No broken wheels this time but still completely inadequate. The gifted dummy chassis is of no use to me either as it is not from a post war f3 but a later version. Although the owner was very good about trying to address the issues i've concluded that he is both inexperienced with this type of train, and ill equipped by way of the right tooling and procedures with regard to proper reassembly and testing. 

I spoke to Jeff at the train tender and he highly recommended Jim Piekunka aka "Train Tender Jim". I suppose it's worth one more shot before investing in the tooling. Any feedback would be most welcome....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bummer. Jeff is a good guy, so anyone he recommends would be likely to be competent. I hope the dealer at least refunded any payment!


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I decided to give him an opportunity to correct the damage John. I'll head back over there tomorrow and let him know that they are still way off. I'll ask for a refund tomorrow. In the meantime I'll wait patiently for the Greenberg's Manual so I can read through the procedures and methods for refurbishing the trucks. Once I see exactly what's involved I'll either buy the tooling or send out for one last attempt at an outside repair.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There are plenty of places that can do that job right, it's a shame that you got hosed here. Hopefully, you'll have better luck next time.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Bummer. Jeff is a good guy, so anyone he recommends would be likely to be competent. I hope the dealer at least refunded any payment!


I'll second what GRJ said here. Nothing but good words about Jeff from anyone on here. He knows his stuff, that's for sure. I've not personally dealt with him, as Brasseurs is a 30 minute drive away.

Hopefully the guy takes care of you and does refund your money. 

Carl


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I hope to get up there tomorrow to work things out with him. Rather than just sit around and wait for the Greenberg's manual I decided to get crackin and started by stripping down the powered A to the frame. I thoroughly cleaned it with parts solvent and after drying for 24hrs I stripped it down in the glass bead cabinet which worked out great. 

I'm leaning towards using a dark primer first as I've come to admire a bit of a darker grey. I purchased the correct paint from Jeff and hope to shoot the frame as soon as I strip the wheel guards. I may hold off and do all 3 frames together. Depends on how ambitious I'm feeling! 

If I can I am going to re-use as many of the original parts as I can. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

wow i really need to get a bead stripper like that. that looks good


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

That is clean! Bloodhound I sympathize with your plight, but with your resolve , im sure the end product will be worth it. Good luck. And the train tender paint is dead on accurate. Ive used it before.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

It makes a job like this easy. Took all of 2 minutes to do. It's probably not safe on plastic shells so I'm not gonna take a chance. If I had a broken F3 shell I'd try it out for shits and giggles but no gots.:laugh:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think grj uses it on plastic shells too. Same result, I have to get one as the bill for easy off is adding up! Ill PM you tomorrow.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Will do and thanks for the votes of confidence guys!:smilie_daumenpos: I guess after all the headaches I want to prove to myself that a little confidence and resolve can go a long way....even for a newbie like me!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I used the bead blaster on several plastic shells, they came out perfect. It's nice to get all the paint off as the molded details get muddied with too many coats of paint.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> Well. Looks like it isn't going to happen. Just got them back and at least two wheels are crooked and the worm shaft gears are off center. At least one axle is bent and 2 wheels are rubbing on the truck sides. No broken wheels this time but still completely inadequate. The gifted dummy chassis is of no use to me either as it is not from a post war f3 but a later version. Although the owner was very good about trying to address the issues i've concluded that he is both inexperienced with this type of train, and ill equipped by way of the right tooling and procedures with regard to proper reassembly and testing.
> 
> I spoke to Jeff at the train tender and he highly recommended Jim Piekunka aka "Train Tender Jim". I suppose it's worth one more shot before investing in the tooling. Any feedback would be most welcome....


Is this Jim Piekunka the guy that did the blotched up job?
Or did Jeff recommend this guy AFTER you got them back from the first repair?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> I don't have this locomotive and never worked on one, but a couple of my observations from looking at the pictures.
> View attachment 38335
> 
> 
> ...


The wire being smashed I know is not right,
But theses questions?

The blue arrow, would this affect anything if the collector spring is touching the shoe spring? :dunno: Anyone know????

The red arrow, what is the red I see on there? Is that contacting anything when it is together maybe shorting something out? HUH?:dunno:


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> The wire being smashed I know is not right,
> But theses questions?
> 
> The blue arrow, would this affect anything if the collector spring is touching the shoe spring? :dunno: Anyone know????
> ...


I don't see the spring end being close enough for a problem. Also, the way it appears the entire collector assembly is "live" when power is on to the center rail. The insulator prevents a ground path between the pickup and the truck assembly, same for the insulating washers. The only chance the area in red could possibly contact anything to cause a short would be if the remote track had a severely high rail to the shoe.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

big ed said:


> Is this Jim Piekunka the guy that did the blotched up job?
> Or did Jeff recommend this guy AFTER you got them back from the first repair?


No Jim did not botch the repair. He was recommended to correct it. Depending on the availability of wheel cups and spacers I may attempt to repair the trucks myself.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

My manual showed up today! Looking forward to reading it tonight. As for tooling this 3 ton arbor press is definitely overkill but the price was right at $20.00! Once I read through the truck repair section I'll have an idea as to how I want to machine some accessories for the press to make this easy.  I'll clean it up tonight and do my homework!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> No Jim did not botch the repair. He was recommended to correct it. Depending on the availability of wheel cups and spacers I may attempt to repair the trucks myself.


Yes, that is what I thought you meant. I don't know if the others did?

Now the one who actually did the butcher job, he was not recommended by Jeff right?


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

big ed said:


> Now the one who actually did the butcher job, he was not recommended by Jeff right?


CORRECT. :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Kwikster said:


> I don't see the spring end being close enough for a problem. Also, the way it appears the entire collector assembly is "live" when power is on to the center rail. The insulator prevents a ground path between the pickup and the truck assembly, same for the insulating washers. The only chance the area in red could possibly contact anything to cause a short would be if the remote track had a severely high rail to the shoe.


OK, but the collector spring sure looks like it would touch the copper shoe spring when it is together. See the blue arrow in my posted picture. 
It is only an 1/8 of an inch directly above it when together I think it would touch it? But I will take your word on it, I thought if it touched it might create a problem. 

The other side looks far enough away, but not the side where my blue arrow is pointing.

I am still wondering what the red rub marks on the one side the copper shoe spring, what would cause the red marks?

I guess it doesn't matter anyway.:dunno:

Thanks Kwik.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> CORRECT. :thumbsup:


Well he should do a good job then.

Jim Piekunka.......I think he has a brother out in the midwest somewhere and does train repair also.

I will go and search.

Edit, nope I thought that you had said Jim is in NY somewhere.
Here is his site he is out in Indiana.

http://traintenderjim.com/index.html


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Just in case you run across one of these,










They are basically the same manual, there are a few different things but I don't think it would be worth it to you to have both, because really they are just about the same thing.

I have both, I wish someone had told me what I am telling you I wouldn't have bought both. I thought they were different and I was gaining more info on the trains.

The blue one is a hard cover for anyone thinking of getting a manual. The one Blood got is paperback.


Not my picture I borrowed it off ebay.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

The paperback is fine. 

I'll be doing the trucks myself. Been scouring the web for info and I feel as though I can recoup the loss by becoming self equipped and self sufficient with regard to all aspects of repair and restoration. I paid for "convenience" and got "inconvenience". That won't happen again.

Judging by the $275.00 and up price tag on the hobby horse press I'm ahead of the game with the one I got for $20.00..... I'm hoping the Greenberg repair manual will have wheel cup numbers so I can start on finding them. I can't see buying the set for $150.00 when I need 2. I'll mill my own before I do that. I'm considering making a custom multi function arbor press plate as well. I'm rising to the challenge so wish me luck!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I was just saying don't think the K line book is any different, what you have is almost a copy of theirs.

I don't have any cups.

I found this,
copy and paste,

Lionel developed an extensive set of wheel mounting tools. These were shaped like small cups and were used with the rivet set press. The ST-375 Wheel Mounting Tools comprised of an axle mounting bit and eight different cups which covered all of Lionel's Postwar locomotives. A special adapter sleeve was also included to be used with the cups and slightly smaller wheels.

Hobby Horse also made a set of wheel cups for the LTI-1000 press.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks Ed. That will come in handy. My only concern is with the new cup design. I noticed that when properly mounted the postwar F3 diesel axles are slightly countersunk from the outer face of the wheel. I would think that the cups would have a small raised area dead center for that purpose. All the pictures I've seen show a recess dead center. 

I haven't seen any reproduction wheel or worm gear spacers out there either????? If the only option is to buy the complete set of wheels I'll check and see if anyone here needs a different set. Perhaps we could get a few people to split the cost of a set.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm a little disapointed in the Greenberg manual. I paged through it last night and didn't see anything as far as explicit instructions on rebuilding post war F3 trucks. No measurements or quartering instructions anywhere. Did I miss something? 

I could use some measurements for making wheel and axle worm gear spacers.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

I know they make shims for spacing wheels I'm not sure if they do for gears.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Bloodhound said:


> I'm a little disapointed in the Greenberg manual. I paged through it last night and didn't see anything as far as explicit instructions on rebuilding post war F3 trucks. No measurements or quartering instructions anywhere. Did I miss something?
> 
> I could use some measurements for making wheel and axle worm gear spacers.


Diesels need no quartering, that's a steamer only deal. For that there used to be a special fixture for that purpose. It can be done without it, but it's a royal PITA.

Usually, you can use washers called out in the motor section. If you're careful you'll likely not need them as you'd mostly use the in cases where there is too much lateral motion causing binding. Usually a result of worn or improperly installed axle bushings.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I'll figure something out. I have another Post War F3 set here I'll use as a reference. If I can get in the ballpark with my spacing of the wheels and gears it shouldn't be hard to dial them in. I'll eventually machine my own spacers to make this easy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Henning's Trains has an extensive line of tools for repair of post war and pre-war trains. They make many of the tools in their catalog.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

wow those are great pieces.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Sorry , im a bit late here, but would it be cost efective to buy a whole power trck off the bay, just as an idea.


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## ttello5873 (Oct 16, 2014)

*Nyc 2344*

Hello, I have a vintage ABA F3 set too. It has similar problems as you do. I called Lionel and spoke to the service tech. (They state in their advertising, that since the move to NC, they have a state of art repair facility) Wrong. They cannot do anything on units over 10 years old.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Henning's Trains has an extensive line of tools for repair of post war and pre-war trains. They make many of the tools in their catalog.


Thanks John. Their sitestore is down. I'll touch base with Jeff at the train tender first and then try Henning's. 



njoffroader said:


> wow those are great pieces.


Thank You! Bought this set a year ago when it became apparent the NYC set was inoperable.



sjm9911 said:


> Sorry , im a bit late here, but would it be cost efective to buy a whole power trck off the bay, just as an idea.


I considered that but there's no guarantee it's a virgin truck as opposed to one someone's been into. Besides, I have the Sante Fe F3 here for reference purposes if need be.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

ttello5873 said:


> Hello, I have a vintage ABA F3 set too. It has similar problems as you do. I called Lionel and spoke to the service tech. (They state in their advertising, that since the move to NC, they have a state of art repair facility) Wrong. They cannot do anything on units over 10 years old.


Sorry to hear your having problems. If you read back a few posts "Train Tender Jim" comes highly recommended. As for me I have decided I no longer want to play games or have to wait for repairs. I'll be doing my own repairs and restorations going forward. Once I have the processed dialed in and my tooling set up I'll likely offer to do them for fellow hobbyists to give something back. Everyone on this forum has been extremely encouraging and more than helpful.  

I cleaned up my arbor press (See Page 6) and plan to give it a fresh coat of paint next week. By then I should have the wheel cups and a few other rivet accessories etc. I should be able to whip up some spacers once I settle on the measurements and give it a go.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Everyone was at York from Henning's, they're back on-line now. 

Henning's Trains
Tel: (215) 362-2442


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