# New guy, used layout, some problems.



## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

OK, I need some serious assistance with this one. I just picked up this layout. She really is a beaut. I bought it not working knowing that I was going to have to go through it. I took a look underneath and yeah, it looks like a big bowl of spaghetti. It has two separate lines and all of the street lights and buildings light up. Here are my issues.

The PO told me that the two lines used to run opposite each other. One would roll one way and the other the opposite direction. One day a spotlight that shines on one of the buildings burned out and one of the lines got messed up. What it does now is the engine reverses direction when it gets to one of the switches. 

The back of the transformer has 4 outputs. Track 1, track 2, DC out, and AC out. It's obvious what the track outputs are. How do I know which accessories are DC and which are AC? The layout has 12 switches and a ton of street lights and building lights. I don't even know where the switches get their power from.

There are a bunch of pieces of track that are "isolated" from what my neighbor told me. I guess it means you can park a train on that particular piece of track and shut that chunk of track off so that train can be parked. How the hell do I operate that?

I'm honestly baffled here. This is my first train set in a while, but I have had more than one before. Nothing even remotely this complex though.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Fabio,

You need some meatballs to go with that spaghetti! I'll defer to more knowledgable guys here to help you with the electro-issues, but I just wanted to say congrats on acquiring such a nice looking, fun layout. Best of luck getting it running smoothly again!

TJ


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

You have what I think is a worthy layout that can be fun to operate if made reliable.But it is an electrical mess that has two possible solutions to...one being to research for the problem at the risk of losing patience and eventually abandoning the whole project.Even if you do find the problem,such a messy electrical setup is likely to create other problems in the future.The other solution would be to go with DCC,but then additional costs can be expected.However,this would allow you to remove most of this messy wiring,leaving the feeders in place,and then install new buss wires from your command station directly to these feeders.You could then toss away all this messy wiring and the switches required for block control.In the end,you'd have a much easier to troubleshoot layout on top of being much less complicated to operate.If you don't have many locos to retrofit,I'd consider it.Basic DCC systems are quite affordable (I recommend the Zephyr from Digitrax) and offer many possibilities DC doesn't.

Now,I suspect that you do have Atlas snapswitch controls (couldn't see in the photos)...if so,these have a tendency to stick and burn turnout coils.Single pole double-throw "momentary" switches would be safer.

The turnouts are likely powered by AC while other accessories are usually DC powered.Now if a burned bulb has created havoc to your track power,I'd suggest you do a careful inspection of your actual wiring,my guess (without seeing) is that two wires are touching eachother,possibly melted coating due to heating.


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

OK, some of that was over my head but thank you. I'm thinking I might rip most of the wiring out and start fresh. That's a damn mess under there...


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

My best advice, buy a wiring book!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think I'd make the decision right now to do some rewiring, then set about cleaning up the wiring. Trying to "fix" the issues without some cleanup is like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

On another forum I used to frequent the standard reply for a situation like this is:
"Gas, match, call your insurance company."

I'm electrically challenged but in spite of that I'd do a complete rewire and use more than just red coated wire!

Good luck!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Funny. Reminds me of when the landscaper came over to quote on my landscaping and I asked what we should do to start. He looked at me and queried: Napalm? 

In this case, I think rewiring is the way to go.


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## mrmtox (Aug 24, 2011)

I have about 65 lights on my table and the underside looks a bit like yours - a proper rat's nest. The thing is - I know where each wire comes from and goes because I put them there. My suggestion is to make your project fun and not frustrating: Start over with the wiring and take your time enjoying each item. In the end you'll have a setup where you know every wire . You'll also have the opportunity to make changes, alterations, additions, subtractions, etc. I can't help with the switching/track problems though. Good luck and keep us posted of your progress - a neat layout to start with!!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're going to rewire, I'd do a couple of things.


Use some color coding on the wires so it's easier to identify them.
Route the wires in cable clamps and bundle them together so it's not a total rats nest.


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks for the replies boys. Looks like a re-wire is the way to go. Can anyone recommend any literature on the subject? Or helpful threads?


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Atlas books come to mind first.

Good luck, really. As stated I'm electrically challenged. But I'd start with switch #1, rewire, test, move on to #2 repeat. Then move on to blocks testing as you go, finally lighting. Realize this isn't going to be a Saturday afternoon project, it's going to take time.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Looks like that layout is wired common ground. If you want to go DCC (which allows multiple engines to run on the layout in different directions/speeds at the same time without having to throw a ton of switches to keep it running) - you'll want to rewire the whole thing anyway.

Personally here's how I'd tackle it.

Go around the track and look for gaps in any of the rails, these are the sections that are isolated. Try to figure out how many different isolated sections there are on the layout. By the look of the old Atlas switches mounted, there are quite a few. Draw out a track plan that shows all of the sections and assign them a number.

Cut out all the wiring and disconnect all the switches, you can probably reuse the distribution blocks. Those Atlas switches allow for either A or B input power (2 power supplies so you could run 2 trains independently via DC power.) Example: Using powerpack A - you put all the switches in the A position - 1 train can now run any where on the layout. Train number 2 is sitting in block #10, switch block #10 to B and train 2 can now run inside Block #10 via Powerpack B.

Track 1 is DC output power (Powerpack A above)
Track 2 is DC output power (Powerpack B above)
DC Access is for DC powered accessories
AC Access is for AC powered accessories (most lights are AC.)

Only Track #1 is hooked up (he might have blown #2) - If you go DC, you can pick up decent powerpacks for not too much money. I think DCC is the way to go.

Run #14 Buss wires underneath each block (independent red & white wires for +/- leads), then run #18 "drops" from the track down to the Buss wires. I drill really small holes on either side of the track and feed the drops in from above, I then solder the wire to the outside surface of the rail. (If you think of the rail as an upside down T, it's placed in the inside corner of the T). Once it's soldered in, you don't even see them.

You'll need a distribution block to allow independent power feed into your switches. Wiring goes from powerpack to dist. Block, from dist block to switch, from switch out to track section. The power feeds the switch, the switch decides where the power goes. I'm also using distribution blocks between the switches and the track so that I have the freedom to move my control panel around by only having to make new small feeders that go between the switch and the dist. block.

When picking which track gets the red or white wire? It doesn't matter, just stay consistent. Pick the outside rail to always be red and inside to always be white (or vice versa.) Use red/white Buss and feeder lines so when you look at the wire you know if this is a power or a ground. (Red power, white ground.) Mark where the wires go at the distribution blocks (I simply write on the wood because it won't fall off) Looks like a ton of stuff there is wired, but man....where to start.

Keep it organized. It will pay off in reliability.

I'm currently wiring my new layout right now (at least part of it.) I'll take some pics tonight and post them up.

Here's a pic of the wiring from my old layout. I'm doing the new one similar, only instead of soldering the drops to the Buss I'm using suitcase connectors.


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Awesome! I'm sure as I learn more, more of the things you just said will make more sense. The general consensus I seem to be getting is that I need to go to DCC. I guess that's the thing to do then. 

So what you guys are telling me is when this guy ran his layout before he had to stand there and manually throw switches just to keep the train going? That seems like it would be a huge pain in the arse!

Thank you so much Scott!


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Most likely he had it set up where each train had it's own independent loop it could run on continuously. If you wanted to switch the trains on the tracks, then you'd have to play with the power switches. DCC eliminates that need and allows you to run as many trains as you can control on the layout.

Keep in mind if you got any trains with the deal that they would need to either be replaced or upgraded to DCC (some can be upgraded easier than others.)

DCC also allows you sound out of your engines. (as well as many other functions like active signalling, etc.)


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Yup. I have like 5-7 engines. I'd have to count. I had some before and this layout came with like 4 so... I may swing by the local hobby store and see if they know anything as well.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Fabiodriven said:


> Awesome! I'm sure as I learn more, more of the things you just said will make more sense. The general consensus I seem to be getting is that I need to go to DCC. I guess that's the thing to do then.


hi and congrads. excellent answer by Scott.
i'll add another vote for rewiring. 

and to clarify - no you do not absolutely NEED to go DCC, but it adds very interesting dimension,one i peronaly especially like. i can't see the pics from here (firewalled at work) only attachements, but it sounds like layout is more complicated then two loops. so going digitally going to also simplify things. it is more expensive and requires more equipment so you need to be prepared for that.

good luck, post progress, keep asking question


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

So I swung through my local hobby store today after work and they were little to no help. They knew almost nothing about anything to do with DCC and suggested a couple of wiring books they had lying around. I was hesitant to buy the books because I wasn't sure how up to date they were and upon a quick flipping of the pages I saw absolutely nothing about DCC.

Honestly guys, I appreciate all the advise given thus far and I will make this thing work, but I have no idea where to begin here. I'm debating on ripping all of the wiring out as a start, but I don't know what I would do after that.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

A quick yahoo or Google search "basic model rr wiring" brings back a lot of hits, including this one:

http://www.nmra.org/beginner/


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the previous advice was pretty sound here. Remember, if you launch into this, and you take it step by step, we can help you along until you get it working.

I think I'd start by planning the job and how you're going to approach it. I'd also write it down and post it here, and we can discuss it with you and perhaps refine it.

My feeling is I'd start by stripping it, then get one function working at a time. I'd start with the track wiring, since that's kind of the basic thing we're trying to do. 

Plan your work, then work your plan.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

You seem to think that DCC is much more complicated than standard DC.Truth is that it's the other way around.The first and most important question you have to answer yourself (not me) is wether you can afford it or not.First,a layout the size of yours doesn't require an elaborated DCC system,a good quality starter system (like Digitrax's Zephyr for one) will suit the purpose forever and can be upgraded easily should you wish to in the future.And looking around different suppliers,I believe you can get a brand new set under $200.If you go the Ebay route,used sets are occasionally available for even cheaper.There are cheaper (in cost and quality also) sets available but I don't personally recommend them as most are lacking features that high end brands (Digitrax,NCE,etc) offer.
Your photos don't clearly show if an electrical loop is present on your layout (a track plan would allow us to help better) but if there is,you would then need a polarity reversing device,available below $40.
The other component needed for DCC is an individual decoder for each one of your engines.Depending on their age and make,some are easier than others to retrofit.Older ones often need machining to make room for the decoder and in many cases aren't worthed the effort.However,present offerings are most if not all DCC ready,with even many offered with factory installed decoders.A basic decoder can be obtained for as low as $15. each up to over a hundred dollars for sound units.
What else do you need for DCC?In your case,mostly two colors of gauge 14 wires for the buss leads,red and black is suggested but any two colors will do.Since your feeders are already in place and your turnouts are powered,that's about it.

Now your other question...how to proceed for DCC...easy,visit Allan Gartner's "Wiring for DCC" website.It will tell you everything you need to know and even more.And if you should decide to go the DCC route,I strongly suggest that you come back to this post BEFORE you tear anything off your layout so that I and others can help you save some grief and frustration.Not everything is bad on your layout,might as well save what's good.Electrical circuits can be understood and corrected with a methodical approach.Jacques.


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Awesome Jacques, thanks a lot.

It's not that I think DCC is more complicated, it's that I don't understand either DCC or standard. 

Money is not a huge issue for me either.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You can test your layout this way. Switch all of the green switches to B (down). Nothing should work because as near as I can tell from the pics - Track 2 isn't hooked up as an input.

Put one of your good functioning engines on a track, turn the Throttle #1 up to 50% (or so), on any track and switch on/off - 1 at a time, each of the green switches. (Going all the way to the top position) When your engine moves, you have located the switch that powers that "block", run the engine forward until it stalls, that's where the track break should be to isolate that block. Move the engine back into the block and run it in reverse until it stalls. That identifies the other end of the block. 

Draw a track plan of your layout, and as you identify the blocks, mark them on the diagram.

Do this all the way around the layout until you can identify every section of track with a particular switch. You'll then know if you have any dead sections on the layout.

The A or B output of power to the track is dependent on the switch, not the wiring in the track. Either the section of track will work or not (or intermittent.) If you can identify a switch that turns power on/off to a section of track - you've got a good circuit. You can identify both dead switches and dead sections of track this way.

Those Selector switches are made for running common ground and won't work well with DCC (but work fine for DC.)

If you want to stay DC power, you can figure out if you have any dead sections and just repair those.....or rewire and make it a little easier to identify any problems you may have down the road (reduced diagnosis time tracking wires.)


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Took some pics last night. The small wires go through the wood and are soldered to the outside rails of the track (looks like yours is done similar.) I always keep my buss lines going parallel underneath the track it feeds. That keeps things organized and very easy to identify. I route the wires through the benchwork in 11/16" holes made with a wood boring bit (they will bite in at any angle so long as the tip can get a bite on the material.)

Distribution block - circuits go vertically through the block. This is a 12 circuit block. You can see this has one total circuit wired (one positive and one negative lead feeding into block on bottom, wires going out to track exiting the top. Continuity tracks red to red and white to white through the block










Main power tap. I create an easy spot to get main power, I simply took the +/- feeds off of my powerpack and screwed them into a support in my benchwork. I'll tap any power feeds that I need to go out to various control panels from here. Wood is a good insulator. I use ring terminals on the ends of the wires and simply add them under the wood screw as I need them.










Examples of main buss wires running parallel under benchwork. Each red/white pair of wires is an independent "block" of track controlled by a single switch.



















Atlas Selector (all green switches - Select A/B/off to select power input to circuit) and Controller (Multi color switches used for controlling reverse loops, turntables, wyes)










Temp panel. These switches simply turn circuits on/off. You can see the pairs of red/white wires leading out of the switches, they go to the distribution block, then from the dist block to the track section.










Suitcase connector - real handy for connecting power drop lines to buss lines.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I understand what you mean so we'll start with some basics,trying to not complicate things beyond necessity.Basic electricity is the circulation of electrons through conductive materials,generally metals.In this case,tracks are an alloy that contain zinc for one and other metal(s) that you don't need to know the exact composition.I don't know them anyway.
Then,the current (electrons) need a two lane road to circulate...one going from a power source to whatever accessory then another one for returning to the power source.In DC (for Direct Current),the path going to the accessory is called positive (+) and the returning path is then called negative (-).It is important to have them well identified as if there should be any + and - wires contacting eachother anywhere in the circuitry,you have a "shorted to ground" situation wich has destructive effects.In protected circuits,a fuse will blow or a breaker will trip.In unprotected circuits,these types of shorts will either melt wires or even destroy your power supply and worse cases will cause fire hazards.
The other type of short circuit is when two wires (generally two positive) touch eachother and current is sent where it is not meant to go.These shorts aren't dangerous and no fuse will blow but the circuitry will cause sometimes weird results that are sometimes very hard to troubleshoot correctly.It is likely that you have such a short on your layout now.These problems can also be caused by faulty components,a defective switch being a common one.

AC (for Alternating Current) current is different as + and - constantly alternate from one path to the other in what is called "cycles" so there aren't any + and - wires.I won't go any deeper in AC as I'm not a pro at it,not knowing much about phases,etc.But like DC,the two main electrical paths can't be crossed.
DCC uses some type of AC current to wich is added a digital signal (square waves,I believe) that allows communication with the locomotives.In DCC,locomotives are sitting on live tracks all the time,even when not running,and will not move until you dial in its specific adress and tell it to get going towards a specific directions at a selected speed.You can turn the lights on or off at will even while the loco is sitting idle and even control other functions,a popular one being sounds depending on the decoder you have aboard.In DC,you don't have these fun functions for one,and you constantly have to control the current to different track sections to control the engines,thus all these switches you have along the complex wiring.In DCC,a simple two paths road does the job and you could throw all this mess away.
In DCC,wires (and tracks) are generally identified as "North" and "South" instead of + and - but either way will work,as long as polarities are respected through methodical work.Any mistake will cause shorts,just the same as DC,although much easier to find.

Books are written on electricity and also DCC,so this just about covers the primary basics trying to keep it relatively easy to digest,so you'll likely have other questions.Don't shy away,ask at will.Someone will answer.Jacques.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jake, if you'd break up the posts with spacing, it would make them a lot easier to read.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Thanks for the tip.Indeed,that would be more reader friendly.I'll remember this in the future.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sometimes the steam of consciousness posts only work for the poster.  I have to sometimes go back and break up posts when I notice what I'm doing.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Fabiodriven said:


> OK, some of that was over my head but thank you. I'm thinking I might rip most of the wiring out and start fresh. That's a damn mess under there...



You mean that is not the way my wiring is supposed to look?:laugh:
I better not post any pictures of mine. But like someone already said I know where they all go.
As you see from your pictures a lot are tagged with numbers, it might take some time but you should be able to figure out where they go.
All you might need to do is unhook them and straighten the mess out some to make it look something like this.
You can replace the switches with something better in the process.
Turn your mess into an organized mess. 
As with most layouts you add wires as you go along, but if you add them similar to this setup, it will look a lot neater. 
This is not mine. I wish, I am in the process of unraveling mine as we speak.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Impressive wiring layout indeed.I can't identify all these components but can only assume that it is for a huge and highly technical train layout.I just want to tell the original poster that he only needs a very small fraction of this hardware to go DCC.These pictures would likely scare a beginner away from building a layout.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I sure do hope he doesn't need that much wiring!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Brakeman Jake said:


> Impressive wiring layout indeed.I can't identify all these components but can only assume that it is for a huge and highly technical train layout.I just want to tell the original poster that he only needs a very small fraction of this hardware to go DCC.These pictures would likely scare a beginner away from building a layout.



I just posted the picture to give him an ideal on how to make the mess neater.
I got to do something like that to mine, to get the wires organized some.

That layout has a mess of wires, but it is an organized mess.
And he is not done yet.:laugh:


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Again let me thank you all for all the great replies. I'm still on the fence about which way to go as far as the whole DCC thing. I will rip into this thing soon.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Fabiodriven said:


> Again let me thank you all for all the great replies. I'm still on the fence about which way to go as far as the whole DCC thing. I will rip into this thing soon.


Like I said a lot are tagged.
Once you get a basic wiring book, I think you could clean up that wiring to make it work. 
Get some different switches if you don't like the Atlas.

Any layout will have a ton of wires.
DCC, I never fooled with, maybe you would be better with that.

Keep us posted.


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

I just wanted to let you guys know I'm still here. I haven't touched the layout yet, I've had a bit of a distraction. She's 6 years younger than I and beautiful as the day is long. I will be tackling this project at some point soon though!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, that's no excuse to ignore your trains! 

Actually, maybe it is, I'll have to think about that.


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Welp, I finally got underneath the layout today. I ended up starting with the lights because that looked to be the most straight forward and easiest thing to correct at the moment. I cut out a big chunk of wires the PO had cobbled in there with electrical tape. He had them run in no particular organized fashion, just spaghetti. I figure I'll get these hooked up and routed correctly first, but I have a few questions.

Some of these wires are really tiny. What do you guys use to have a nice, solid connection with such small wires? I like to use butt splices on most things I work on, but these would be some tiny butt splices. 

These lights are AC, correct? Does that mean they have to be hooked up with the positive and negative in the same corresponding way with every single light? Which wire is positive and which is negative? Some of my lights have different colored wires coming out of them, but some just have two black wires. 

Thanks.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Most older hobby lights are AC or DC best to run them off of AC for buildings and such, either wire can be connected to either feed wire it does not matter.
To do tiny wires either solder or you can use beanies, Tiny crip butt splices for telephone wires.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

NIMT said:


> Most older hobby lights are AC or DC best to run them off of AC for buildings and such, either wire can be connected to either feed wire it does not matter.
> To do tiny wires either solder or you can use beanies, Tiny crip butt splices for telephone wires.


Here you go, works for #18 through #30, I've used a ton of these in my past.

Crimp B Wire Gel Filled Bean Type Connectors


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Awesome guys. That'll get me off to a good start!


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm still at it. Got a good start with the lighting. I'm currently working on getting all my lights set up first because it's the easiest for me to do.

I'm seriously considering going with the DCC setup. It seems to be a very popular suggestion.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

How about some pics of the cleaned up wiring? We like pictures


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## Fabiodriven (Sep 15, 2011)

Well, it's honestly not much to look at still. I ended up pulling out a huge pile of wires like I said, but I haven't finished installing the new stuff. All of the track power and switch wires are still under there so it still currently looks like hell.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You'll get there...keep up the progress.


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