# O gauge help...power loss!



## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

Ok heres the deal one of my buddies has a pretty good size layout thats a 30' by 20' (i think, its big) and its so large that the trains start to loose power on the return trip untill about half way so we need to figure out how to provide power thats steady for the train as we want the train to keep constant power especialy when we want it to tow at least a 5 car train with out getting stalled on the track and loosing power  so any help you guys can provide us would be good...

we are using DC Lionel track and transformer, not sure of other specs as my buddy keeps the trains and things....


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you are using tubular track, here is a hint that will make better connections between the track sections. Instead of pinching the open ends of the rails to make a tight fit on the pins, bend the pin end of the rails slightly. With the pins facing away from you, bend the left rail where the pin is installed to the left and the center rail to the right. Grab the rails with pliers where the pins are installed. Other wise you may collapse the rail. Bending the rails increases the contact pressure where the pin contacts the inside of the adjoining rail. If you do this, you will only have to do it once as you can disassemble the track sections and reassemble them without rebending the rails. I have been doing this with good success for about 5 years. I wish I had discovered this method 60 years ago. 


With a 30 x 20 layout, you will also probably have to add 2 or 3 more lockons wired to the transformer to keep the loco speed relatively constant. Wire them in parallel to the existing lockon.


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

ok do they make power boosters (for lack of a better word/term here) that would let us boot power for even larger set ups, as we do shows and the track can get in excess of 70' at times (convention center) and we need a way to keep reliable power for the train as we use the big boy at that time and im gonna be runing a cabforward with it on another rail line so yea, we will try the bending idea if it is tube style track but im not 100% sure tho...I figure the simplest thing would be to have another power booster on the section(s) that get low power and use them to keep it stable power flow...


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Only use one transformer. Wire some additional lockons to the track wired in parallel. There is no such thing as a power booster for Lionel trains.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Berlin,

Should be an easy fix, per Bruce's suggestion ...

Use some heavy gauge wire to run extra power leads to the "far" sections of the track. The resistance loss in the wire is much less than the resistance loss in many sections of connected track. So, with the extra power leads (heavy wire), you'll be feeding power more directly to those "far" sections, and should see much more smooth powered running of the trains.

It's very common to have multiple "power drops" on larger layouts.

Clean the pins that connect the track sections, too ... should be shiny ... use a ScotchBrite pad. Bruce's "pin bend" tip is a good one.

TJ


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

ok just figured maybe there was a power booster that could be added on the far side but like i said we are going to try the pin bend trick first and I also will be cleaning them too to ensure proper connection


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Use at least 14 gauge wire.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can use smaller wire like 18 gauge for the short jumper from the 14 gauge to the lockon. The easiest way to join the 18 and 14 gauge is with wire nuts. These can be easily removed.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Sometimes you can buy wire cheap on Craig's list. You could use 14/2 romex or two single 14 gauge wires.


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## SteveC (Feb 13, 2012)

I run an additional lock on about every 6 feet of track. On my son's 4' X 8' layout, we have at least 8 power taps around they layout. I also wish I learned this many years ago. I like the tip about skewing the pins for better contact!

Steve


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have 40 feet of O-31 track on my bedroom floor with a single lockon and it works well. I have checked the voltage drop of some of the track connections but not all of them. My next move will be to get a small cylindrical wire brush from McMaster Carr to clean out the open ends of the rails.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

A track pliers is the best tool for improving connections with tubular track. If you haven't already pick one up. You'll be glad you did.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

areizman said:


> A track pliers is the best tool for improving connections with tubular track. If you haven't already pick one up. You'll be glad you did.


What he said!


Perhaps the best money I spent on my layout. 

Just make sure you get the right size for your track.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I disagree about the track pliers. I think bending the rails to offset the pins works much better. And, as I said, once the rails are bent, you never have to do it again, and the contact pressure is much higher than can be achieved with track pliers.


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## greyhound (Jan 4, 2009)

Just a thought--Would a drop of solder work just as well?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Do you mean soldering the track sections together? Yes, that will work, but it is a bit difficult to take things apart. I have a carpet central, so I am not soldering anything together. Bob Nelson on the CTT forum solders his track together and also removes the pins so he can easily remove a single section.

The track doesn't take solder very well, so you are going to have to polish the place where you want to solder.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well Bruce, that rusty track that you use probably doesn't take solder that well. 

I hit it with a ScotchBrite wheel to solder it. I agree that if you're not building something permanent, you do not want to solder it!


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Stay away from soldering the track together. But soldering the feed wires to the track is a great idea for a permanent layout. A crimp with a track pliers will restore loosened track to a nice tight fit. I like to gently pinch the rail about 1/4 inch in to prevent pins from being pushed backwards into the rail if the receiving hole is too tight.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Just get a few extension cords at the home improvement store. Cut the ends off. The wire should be heavy enough for the trains.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Extension cords are 16 gauge. This is a little light for a ZW transformer or for any transformer supplying 15 amps.


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

SteveC said:


> I run an additional lock on about every 6 feet of track. On my son's 4' X 8' layout, we have at least 8 power taps around they layout. I also wish I learned this many years ago. I like the tip about skewing the pins for better contact!
> 
> Steve


pics of your power taps? hooked up that is!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Extension cords are 16 gauge. This is a little light for a ZW transformer or for any transformer supplying 15 amps.


How many amps do the locos draw?

I thought 3 or 4.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

That is not the issue. The question is what happens with a derail when you have a short across the track. Will the wire be able to handle the output of the transformer? 14 gauge for a 15 amp transformer is conservative if the wire is not enclosed. I use 16 gauge with my KWs because their circuit breaker is set to around 10 amps.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I guess I didn't make myself clear, use the 16ga extension cord wire to run juice from the transformer to the track and to the various drops. 


I use a heavier cord for my main supply.


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## SteveC (Feb 13, 2012)

My daughter borrowed my camera, and it is AWOL at this time, so sorry no photos. As for why I like to have so many power taps, I do this even for my Christmas circles around the tree have so I have at least two taps. I had a situation about 10 years ago where I only had two taps on a layout. When I pulled that plan up, there was a very black burn/charcoal spot on the plywood under one of the lock-on's about 1" circle. As it turned out, there was resistance in the rivet of the lock-on under the rail that was causing excessive heat. Hot enough to burn the wood! I decided that I was not going to let just a few power taps have to carry the whole electrical load, plus they run better. That Lock-on went into the trash, but it was not something that could be easily seen just looking at it. As you know, resistance increases with head and reduced surface area. A poor connection reduces surface area. Just checking it with an ohm meter probably would not have revealed that the connection was poor. I always check lock-on's now to make sure the rivets are tight, and will re-seat them if I have any doubt. I also check them for heat occasionally. A fire would certainly derail my train! :thumbsdown:

Steve


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## greyhound (Jan 4, 2009)

My Lionel GG-1 at the start pulls 2 3/4 amps. then settles to 2 1/2 amps.
My K-line switcher does not even move the needle. The meter reads
from 0 to 10 amps. Both engines are not pulling any cars. If I wanted 
to put a circuit breaker between the track and the transformer what
type should it be?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd probably go for something in the 7-10 amp range. You're just trying to prevent damage due to shorts.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The circuit breaker is to protect the wire and the transformer. How big is the wire from the transformer to the track? And what is the current rating of the transformer?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I use modified outdoor extension cords all the time. They are made to handle heavy loads. The power distribution on my large layout is interconnected with 16 gage outdoor extension cords. I use the white and green wires for power and lights and the black for return. I also use 14 gage stranded wire for block mains that I can splice into as needed with suitcase connectors.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I experimented with different size breakers, finally settling on 7 amp as the lowest value that could handle the load of a pullmore motor powered lighted passenger train. 

Without a circuit breaker the thin plastic insulated wire inside modern locomotives becomes the fuse. When the engine derails the short pulls so much current the thinest wire is going to melt then break.

The problem with extension cord wire is it's very difficult to tell the leads apart. For connection wire to the track I recommend bi-color 18 gage speaker wire. It's easy to tell the polarity of the wire at a glance.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When a train derails, there should be no current going through the loco wiring. That is why the loco stops. The derail short is between the center rail and one of the outer rails. I have had thousands of derails and never had the wire inside a loco or tender or car damaged.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

The heat from the short transfers up the thin power wire. I've fried three modern locomotives from the heat generated by a short melting the insulation on the power wires and in turn melting the adjacent wires inside the locomotive.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Then the short was inside the loco, not caused by a derail.
I have 50+ prewar and post war locos. Never had a short inside of any of them. Never had a wire melt.

If you have a power transistor or motor short inside a newer loco, you definitely could smoke the wires inside the loco.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've had a passenger car derail and one pickup set on the outside rail, the wire inside will go up in smoke if you don't have a fuse or CB. This could happen to many diesel locomotives that have an internal wire between the pickups just as easily, though that hasn't happened to me yet.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

That is a good reason to put a 7 amp breaker on each circuit. When my KWs experience a short, they just grunt until the circuit breaker heats up. 

The circuit breaker in the Lionel transformers isn't really a circuit breaker. It is a current limiter. When a short occurs, the bimetalic strip heats up and opens up the contacts to limit the current. There is an arc across the points of the circuit breaker all the time the short is present. This is not a design that has a long life if the short persists.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I never count on the transformer circuit breaker, they are pretty lame. The contacts keep opening and closing on the ones I've tested, they don't continuously arc, but I can see lots of damage happening before they open.


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