# design question



## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

hi guys i am in need of some advice.....my wife god love her bought me a simple ho dcc because she knew i want to try and build a train layout...Now i have built the tables in a horseshoe shape...each section is 2ft wide with a 4ftx4ft turn around on each end....i am trying to come up with a track plan ....have i limited myself with this design or can you see a lot of potential for this......also is there an option to soldering because i am visually impaired and don't see well enough to solder....sorry this is so long


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## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

ok i guess i may not have worded my question very well but its the only way i can come up with


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

nantro said:


> ok i guess i may not have worded my question very well but its the only way i can come up with


All our HO gurus must be out somewhere.

Can you post a picture of the plan?

A copy and paste on posting a picture for you.

How to post pictures, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2595


What I do to post a picture,
1,When your typing your thread, look up top & click on the paper clip.

2,That opens a box then click browse.

3,That will open another box find your picture where ever it is in your computer. (say downloads,camera,files wherever your picture is.)
When you find the picture click on it then click open, it will then be in your box where you clicked browse.

4, Then click upload, wait to make sure it uploads. The minimize that upload box.

5, After it uploads go back to your post box where you are typing and click the paper clip again and click insert attachments. 
(if you forget to go back your pictures will just show as a clickable link instead of a picture in the post. Go back and click the paper clip again after you upload and click insert all or if you only have one picture click on the link there a second time.)
Note, if the picture won't upload most likely it is too big.

Your picture should be in the thread.


Go in advanced mode when you post, if you can't see the paper clip I am talking about let me know you will have to change something in your CP an easy fix.

If you need any help here don't be afraid to ask.



I got to hit the sack, try to post a picture of the plan, and add what are you looking for from the layout.
Just want to run around? A switching layout? What are you looking to do.

Someone will be more then happy to help you, we have a lot of talented HO help here.

I have been on and off the site all day and this is the first I even saw your question, the O threads have been over running the forum.


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## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

thank you big ed 
while I am not able to post an actual pic of my tables I am however able to give a drawing with measurements and hopefully this will give you an idea of the size...
I am hoping to have a continuous loop with a little switching...I would like to be able to run 3 or 4 trains at the same time.. 3 % elevation changes and i was thinking about 22" and if i have room 24" curves.....i hope image is large enough.....again thank you


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Responses to some of your comments...

“Run 3-4 trains at a time...” If you want to sit back and watch trains, each train needs its own main line. If you like the challenge of controlling 2 trains on a single track with DCC, you should have enough room to do this, but I know next to nothing about DCC – others will address that.

So back to the train-watching version. You have room for two main lines, with loops at each end for continuous running – if you use 18” and 22” curves. 24” curves will hang out over the edge of your tables. (The 24” is the radius to the center of the track, so a full half circle is 48” wide – from CENTER of the track on one side to the CENTER of the track on the other side.) If you have the room to expand your tables by a few inches, you could go with 24” curves on the outer loop. You don’t need to redo the legs and supports. Just expand the table-top a little.

“A little switching...” You have a little room on your 4x4 tables for a few very short sidings. You could put some longer sidings parallel to the main lines on the 2’ tables. But either of these options only gives you a few switching options – at least from what I can see. Some of the switching experts may have better ideas.

You should get ahold of a layout design computer program. SCARM is free and has its own thread on this forum. Use it to play with different track configurations, then post your ideas here for comment.

"Unable to solder..." Soldering is usually used for four things: (1) to hold track sections together (with good conductivity), (2) to attaching drop power wires to track , (3) to connect wires together, and (4) to attach wires to electronic switches that control the power distribution and turnouts. Using DCC eliminates most of the electronic switches that DC layouts have. To connect wires together, use wire nuts or terminal strips. You don’t need to solder track together if it is firmly attached, but you may need more drop wires with unsoldered track, in order to get good voltage throughout the layout. That only leaves the drop wire problem. But, I’m sure that somebody will chime in with a solution to that.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

You should be able to get a good Interesting layout from the configuration you have there, which dictates a elongated dog bone type, but that will be able to give you plenty of operational interest. Running three or four trains at the same time will require each to have their own track as MtRR75 said, unless youre willing to exercise a lot of mental dexterity or use automation. How do you want to control the turnouts? Manually, switch machines or cd units? We need to know what DCC system you have too.
IMO you can construct the layout without any soldering, there are work arounds for most things. Track wires with joiners pre soldered can be bought. 'Suitcase' connectors can be used to attach them to the bus wire.
As for a track plan you could use SCARM as suggested. If you don't want to use a computer you can download templates of Peco turnouts from their site and play about them on your table. To get four independent lines might be pushing it a bit. Someone else could advise on that. Good luck.


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## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

thank you all very much,,,i just installed scarm as suggested...and Mtrr75 i can add a couple of inches to allow for the 24" curves....I am thinking 2 mainlines....with No. 6 turnouts.......the switches will be switch machines.... Cycleops ..the system is the Bachmann EZ command (for now at least)


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I have just installed some point switches from Tam Valley Depot, Theyre called Singlets, you use one for each turnout which you might like to consider: http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/microsingletservodecoder.html
They use a micro servo which TVD can supply. They come with a facia mounted switch as But you can also operate them from your controller. No soldering required, just make sure you have a supply of extended servo cables, available from your local aviation/car hobby shop.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you have 2 mainlines one loop would be inside another loop limiting
it's radius. The 4 tracks would be fairly close to each other on the 2 X 2
sections. I recommend a single track main. With passing sidings, you
can even run 2 trains, one clockwise, the other counter clockwise through your DCC.
That provides the need for you to actually control the trains through
turnouts. I also would add a number of spurs and possibly a yard inside
each of the two loops. Switching operations would provide a diversion from simply
watching trains go round and round. With your DCC you'll have the
capability of having a train continuously running while you conduct
switching operations with another loco.

You should use flex track to reduce the number of joiners. If installed tightly,
likely you could get by without soldering them. However, you will need to
solder track drops. You should have one every 6 feet or so. Perhaps a
friend could help you with that. You should run a buss the length of each
leg, fed by your DCC controller in the middle.

Here on the forum you have modellers with years of experience who will
be glad to help you with any of your questions or solve problems that show up.

Don


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

You should be able to buy pre soldered track joiners for drops to your track bus or get a train shop to do it for you. I know many will consider that not ideal but if you can't find anyone to help you on the soldering.....


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

You may want to consider cutting a curved piece to hide the 90 degree bends on the inside of the table where the inside comers meet. This will give you more room for scenery with taking very little floor space. Just gives it a neater look for little effort. The area where the 2x2 sections meet now becomes effectively a 3x3.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

tkruger said:


> You may want to consider cutting a curved piece to hide the 90 degree bends on the inside of the table where the inside comers meet. This will give you more room for scenery with taking very little floor space. Just gives it a neater look for little effort. The area where the 2x2 sections meet now becomes effectively a 3x3.


Good suggestion. The curves also make it easer to get the tracks around the corners without making the track radii too small.

But, IF the outside of your benches are against walls, then curved corners lengthen the reach required to the back corners. Those corners will probably only have scenery in them (unless you have a dead-end spur going into the corner). Just make sure to build that scenery first, before you build the closer-in stuff, where you might have to lay across to reach the corners.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

If the stuff in the rear is to far to reach build it on a hill. Then if you stand on a step stool you do not hit what is in the front reaching for the back. I also have a road conveniently placed where I place my hand to steady myself when I have to reach for the back forty.


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## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

2 sides are against wall but i can reach them fairly easy but i am thinking that i would place the background wood or whatever i wind up using, then the track then background scenery......i am also going to try to curve the corners of the background wall.....then as tkruger and MtRR75 both suggest.... consider cutting a curved piece to hide the 90 degree bends on the inside of the table where the inside comers meet.....as far as getting someone to cut it...i am stubborn in that department...so i am going to have to try to do it myself first...but there is a neighbor that would do it for me..i also have tortise switch machines given to me as a gift are they hard to connect and are they worth it ? As you may be anle to tell i have been wanting to do this for sometime but just lack the knowledge and self confidence....but you guys are awesome and are helping me with knowledge....self confidence is up to me (that's a whole other site.. )so thank you all


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

nantro said:


> As you may be able to tell i have been wanting to do this for sometime but just lack the knowledge and self confidence....but you guys are awesome and are helping me with knowledge....self confidence is up to me (that's a whole other site.. )so thank you all


Just remember the basis rules of model railroading.

1. It is your railroad, you can do whatever you want. All of our "recommendations" are just suggestions.

2. For almost any aspect of model railroading, there are multiple correct ways to accomplish what you want to do (well, maybe not so much for wiring). Do what works for you.

3. If you are serious about model railroading, at some point you will end up ripping up parts of what you have done and starting over. We have all been there and done this. If you don't end up doing this, either you are naturally really good at this, or just plain lucky.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

As far as self confidence goes, the key is not to get all worked up about mistakes. There's very little you can do that can't be corrected fairly easily. Experience is also no guarantee against screwing up. 

Case in point: I ve been using Tam Valley Depot's servos for about 8 years now., and have connected dozens. So yesterday, we were installing some on my son's layout. We got everything hooked up, and decided to take a lunch break. He wanted to test them before we went upstairs, so we flipped the switch and.... instead of bicolor red and green LEDs, just a dim red glow, which momentarily brightened when we pushed the button. Hmmm.

I was about to dash off an e-mail to TVD when I had a thought. "Hey Tom [my son]! Check to make sure we didn't connect the controllers to the servo outputs." So he went back to the basement, and sure enough, we had it bass ackwards! 5 min made it right.


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## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

there is something i have been wanting to know and I am sure someone here can answer...I know I can buy inclines from Woodland Scenic and i get the math involved but if i wanted to attempt to build my own any suggestion on how i would proceed without doing cookie cutter ( i know that there are probably videos on the subject but here i can get more then one persons thoughts)


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## nantro (Oct 11, 2012)

I am actually getting excited about this and maybe someday i will have something to post in the form of a photo


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Build your own incline*



nantro said:


> there is something i have been wanting to know and I am sure someone here can answer...I know I can buy inclines from Woodland Scenic and i get the math involved but if i wanted to attempt to build my own any suggestion on how i would proceed without doing cookie cutter ( i know that there are probably videos on the subject but here i can get more then one persons thoughts)


 Nantro;

You can make your own "grade"(incline) supports from wood. However this involves cutting with some kind of saw. A table saw would be ideal. However you said you were visually impaired, and I don't want to advise you to do anything that might hurt you. An alternate, and safer, saw would be a saber saw. As power saws go, it's about the least dangerous. Of course you could opt for a manual saw,and a miter box, but you'll need to make many, square cuts, and that taxes one's patience and arm muscles very quickly.
Perhaps the ready made supports from Woodland senics, are a better option. Your choice. 
I would also like to recommend a book to you. It's called 102 track plans, and is published by Kalmbach. www.kalmbach.com. It has many track plans for all sorts of places, sizes and shapes. You have plenty of space, by the way. I would agree with the idea of filling in, and rounding the curves. Also I think you are wise to widen the turn around areas at the ends. Bigger radius curves = better operation, and fewer derailments.

Good luck, and have fun!

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you plan to incline your track be sure to allow space for the transition to
the selected grade. The easy way to do that is to use flex track and let
it find it's own transition. This is important so that the front coupler on
a loco or car does not 'dig' into the ties as it approaches the grade. You
start with the flex on the level and raise the upper end on your selected
grade. Fill in under the flex in it's new slope.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Personally, I don't think you can beat the convenience of the Woodland Scenics products. Worth paying a little bit for.

If I were going to do it myself, I would cut several triangular pieces of 2x4 wood, 6", 12", and 24" long at the grade I planned to use. You can measure this with a simple device called a speed square, or just calculate the rise over run. Make your slope out of extruded foam insulating boards, and check your incline by laying the longest piece of wood that will fit, angled side against your incline. The top of the board will be level when you have the correct grade. Make sure there are no gaps between your template and the future roadbed.

As the other guys said, make your transitions gradual, especially is your grade will be 2% or more. Personally, I'd stay away from grades that steep anyway.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

If you have a grade remember that the effect of the grade on the locomotive increases if there are any curves. I am not sure of the formula but I made the mistake of having a steep grade with a curve in it. Any of my locos could bull that grade if it were straight. With the 270 degree turn only the largest made it past the 3/4 mark with more than a few cars.


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