# Need opinions on a track layout



## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

So for christmas I set up a small 4x6 layout for my two sons (ages 6 and 3). Fairly simple oval with an extension on one end and one spur in the center. Obviously if I am posting here this wasn't big enough for them. My oldest really wants to be able to run two trains at the same time. (on seperate tracks of course) I also want him to be able to help me build scenery and buildings as time goes on so it will be a pretty bare layout to begin with.

So I started working with the layout size I had available to me and came up with the following.


teegans track by tlbjornson, on Flickr

I am using the free version of the software so I focused on the parts of the track that I knew would be a bit harder. You will have to imagine the outer loop continuing around the edge of the board.

My plan is to elevate a good portion of the outer loop. on the straight stretch opposite all the switches I want to have it 2" higher at the mid point. (putting in a bridge)

My question is. Does this layout make any sense. I am not modeling after any real railroad, just looking for something that will entertain my boys.

I want to have the inner loop on a separate controller and need to know if I should completely isolate it or do just a common rail isolation (I think that is what the term is). I would also like to isolate the two spurs that are side by side so he can park engines there. What should I know about doing this?

Are there any pitfalls? Other than only being able to run shorter cars becasue of the tight loops?


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

looks good.
1 isolate both rails at the blocks 
2 make more blocks that you think you will need
3 use an Atlas switch that will let you run any track from eather of the two controlers.
4 put in rerailers. makes it easy for kids to put the trains on track.
5 Upload the anyrail file so that we can help you with it.
6 use cars with truck mounted couplers. they do not care how sharp the curves are.
7 looks HO. is that correct?


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> looks good.
> 1 isolate both rails at the blocks


new guy here... been a long time since I worked with trains.... when you say blocks do you mean where I am isolating the outer loop from the inner loop?



> 2 make more blocks that you think you will need
> 3 use an Atlas switch that will let you any track from eather of the two controlers.


A little lost here?


> 4 put in rerailers. makes it easy for kids to put the trains on track.


I have those to go in. I just couldn't find them in anyrail to put in the layout.


> 5 Upload the anyrail file so that we can help you with it.


 Done


> 6 use cars with truck mounted couplers. they do not care how sharp the curves are.
> 7 looks HO. is that correct?


Yes it is HO. Forgot to mention that


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

a block is a section of track that has it's own power and is isloated from other blocks. My outside ovel had 6 blocks.

This is the switch









With this both boys can run train on eather track if you have two controlers.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> a block is a section of track that has it's own power and is isloated from other blocks. My outside ovel had 6 blocks.
> 
> This is the switch
> 
> ...


ok that makes sense... so with a block I would use the isolator connectors for each section. and then wire it to the switch. when all sections of the switch are on the entire track has power. but turn off a switch and that section of the track looses power?

that was my idea with the center oval was to isolate it from the outer so one boy could control the train on that one and one on the outer.

I have one dc controller that has two seperate controls and then 2-3 other smaller controllers...


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

I am now scratching my head.... going to need some help on how to wire that switch so either controller can run either track. totally lost there


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

also why would I want to break a large oval into different blocks? What does that gain other than being able to isolate a loco on a section of the track and still use other parts of the track?

Sorry for all the questions... a bit new to some of this


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

timbre said:


> I am now scratching my head.... going to need some help on how to wire that switch so either controller can run either track. totally lost there


this website gose into great detail.
http://users.iafrica.com/c/ca/caroper/tutorial/operations.htm



timbre said:


> also why would I want to break a large oval into different blocks? What does that gain other than being able to isolate a loco on a section of the track and still use other parts of the track?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions... a bit new to some of this


That is why you want blocks. That way you can stop a train and move an other one on another part of the same track.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

I played with it. Each color is a block. The yellow siding should each be there own block


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> I played with it. Each color is a block. The yellow siding should each be there own block


Even the dual spur? I was thinking of seperating that after the switch so an engine could park on each of those tracks. then be able to bring either one in seperatly.

Now time to go read the article about wiring.

On a side note. Got the elevation started on the layout. base level foam is in place. All I have to do now is some shaping then cover with plaster cloth to start the shaping process... kinda excited. I can't wait for my boys to see it.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Southern said:


> The yellow siding should each be there own block


There are Five Blocks that are yellow



timbre said:


> Even the dual spur? I was thinking of seperating that after the switch so an engine could park on each of those tracks. then be able to bring either one in seperatly.


Yes. That is the way to do it, Three blocks. There are two blocks on the outside loop. look for the little black triangles on the tracks.




timbre said:


> ... kinda excited. I can't wait for my boys to see it.


That is one of the greatest parts of the hobby


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

I cut yours up into nine blocks. both loops could still be cut in half.

My layout has 18 blocks. Now that I run DCC I keep them all on except to find shorts.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> I cut yours up into nine blocks. both loops could still be cut in half.
> 
> My layout has 18 blocks. Now that I run DCC I keep them all on except to find shorts.


So I would install 3 of those atlas switches. To handle the 9 seperate blocks? I read the wiring link you posted last night. In that they use a common rail and then switch off/on the other side. I think it makes sense. Might have to get the switches in the next few days and try.

Mod's: could this be moved to the forum for layout construction progress. I think it is a natural process to start posting some progress pics as the track is going together.

Southern: Please keep following as your advice has greatly helped me this far and I appreciate the time you have taken to help me with this.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Figured I would add a few progress pictures. Forgot to take any as I put the table together....


20130127_224042 by tlbjornson, on Flickr

This was my version of anytrack... and it actually worked.


20130129_234621 by tlbjornson, on Flickr

20130129_234629 by tlbjornson, on Flickr

and last night when we stopped working


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> I played with it. Each color is a block. The yellow siding should each be there own block


ok back to the blocks and the wiring.

So with two controllers I would wire one side of controller 1 to the 'A' side of the first selector and controller 2 to the 'B' Side of the first selector. The other side of the power would go to a buss where it would distribute power to each of the seperate blocks on the track.

Each of the blocks would then be wired to the the selector. Then depending on which position the selector switch was positioned it would mean that section of track was powered by that controller.

That seems to make sense. So for the 9 blocks I would need three selectors. which from what I understand could be wired in series

Now what I am curious on would be the yellow blocks in the picture above. If both controllers are in use how do I shut down a section of the track? 

edit: just looked at a picture of the selector itself and it looks like there might be a middle position but not sure there.

To add even more confusion to this I have two different controllers. One is a older controller that has an A/B side. This alone will work perfect for the idea of controlling two trains at once. However with two young boys this could lead to fights where each one wants their own controller. Is there a way that I could wire things where for the most part the dual controller is the main one but when needed a second single controller could take the place of the one side of the main one?


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

timbre said:


> ok back to .......................and it looks like there might be a middle position but not sure there.?


Yep you got it figured out. middel is off.




timbre said:


> To add even more confusion to this I have two different controllers. One is a older controller that has an A/B side. This alone will work perfect for the idea of controlling two trains at once. However with two young boys this could lead to fights where each one wants their own controller. Is there a way that I could wire things where for the most part the dual controller is the main one but when needed a second single controller could take the place of the one side of the main one?


you can't stop them from fighting. LOL one will want the twin controler even if it is only working on one side. 

You can wire a DPDT switch so that eather conrtoler can be hooked up to the Atlas switch.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

DCC is much easyer. It just cost more. i jumped down that rabbit hole last year. ( Actully NIMT shoved me )


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Southern said:


> DCC is much easyer. It just cost more. i jumped down that rabbit hole last year. ( Actully NIMT shoved me )


Hey I resemble that comment!:sly:


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> DCC is much easyer. It just cost more. i jumped down that rabbit hole last year. ( Actully NIMT shoved me )


I've been seriously looking at DCC but I just wonder for the age that I am targeting with the train if they will really get it.

For example all of my switches are manual at this point (cost a slight factor, got most used for CHEAP) but both of my boys enjoy changing over each switch.

So my thought was to run the track DC for a while. Let them get used to remembering which switch they threw and what direction the train is going to move before giving them control of a DCC system.

Plus I am a cheap *******.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Another idea that I have rolling around in my head is to take the colored layout, have in printed onto a sheet of plexi and coming up with a light system that would show what sections of the track are on and what controller is running them.

I'm thinking LED with a resistor but am not exactly sure how easy that would be to implement and if it would draw to much power from the paks that the track would not perform as needed.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

they grow up fast.

you are bit by the train bug!


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> they grow up fast.
> 
> you are bit by the train bug!


I have always wanted trains. I remember as a child my parents had a friend who had an entire basement dedicated to layouts.

Also probably the one christmas gift that I remember the most was a GI Joe trainset that I got one year.

I ended up having it on a big 4x8 sheet and made roads and tons of other stuff. Got in trouble becasue I used my mom's vacuum cleaner to get rid of the excess sand that I used to make roads..... burned up the vac.

Since then I have always wanted a small layout and now have the perfect reason.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

That is too funny.

i have an old Electrolucs vacume for the trains. I switch the bag depending on what I will be vacuming. when the one for track ballast get full, I now have a new bag of used ballast.

now that is a cheep *******.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Southern said:


> That is too funny.
> 
> i have an old Electrolucs vacume for the trains. I switch the bag depending on what I will be vacuming. when the one for track ballast get full, I now have a new bag of used ballast.
> 
> now that is a cheep *******.


even funnier... I burned up a old electrolux canister vac..... I think a bag ripped from too much sand.......


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm just full of questions today.

As I wire up the blocks. Should I solder the wires directly to the track? or make connectors that have wire pigtails? or use the sections of track with the screw connections on the side?

Going to start running wires tonight so figured I would ask


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Any of the above power leads would work. Soldered connections are probably better (electrically, less conspicuous) than the old track terminal sections.

You can have multiple "power drops" (in parallel) on a large track run to cut down on track resistance losses, too. Might be something to consider for your outer loop.

You only need to isolate the + rails on the track block sections. The - rail can be common / ground throughout.

Regards,

TJ

TJ


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

tjcruiser said:


> Any of the above power leads would work. Soldered connections are probably better (electrically, less conspicuous) than the old track terminal sections.
> 
> You can have multiple "power drops" (in parallel) on a large track run to cut down on track resistance losses, too. Might be something to consider for your outer loop.
> 
> ...


in the blocks isn't it best to isolate both rails then put power drops in each block to both rails?

Looking how the plastic insulators work it seems like that would keep the track straighter if they were installed in pairs.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nothing wrong with doing that (isolate both rails).

I'm just saying that "electrically", you don't have to. But whatever is easier on your end.

TJ


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

A few more updated pics. Didn't get much it seems but did get the plaster cloth on the elevations and plaster in the bottom of the lake.

Got a few of the blocks in and wiring dropped under the table. now have to wait for the airbrush to finish the elevation so I can start putting the rest of the track down.


Untitled by tlbjornson, on Flickr


Untitled by tlbjornson, on Flickr


Untitled by tlbjornson, on Flickr


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

another update. Spent part of Saturday at a model train show. Spent way to much money. Had to finally just leave becasue I kept finding things that my son would like. I think I have his next three birthdays.

Spent the rest of saturday and part of sunday laying the rest of the track and getting wiring worked on. Hopefully tonight I can tie in the last of the wiring and have ready for the boys on friday night.


20130203_204241 by tlbjornson, on Flickr


20130203_204259 by tlbjornson, on Flickr


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## NumberOne (Sep 19, 2012)

*Simplify?*

If you want to simplify the wiring and operation, you really don't need all those blocks. If you have two separate DC controllers, use a center-off DPDT toggle switch for each block. As a minimum, you just need separate blocks for the two loops. You will also need simple SPST switches so that you can isolate the power for any spurs that you want to park locos on. And even that isn't needed if your junior engineers simply remove the locos off the track.

-Mark


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

That layout is coming along beautifully!

Make sure to do the wiring good/properly(track to bus, especially), so if/when you upgrade to dcc you're not chasing potential headaches. Might be as easy as plugging the dcc controller into the bus 

If your planning dcc in the future, probably good to wire the layout with no common ground (thats probably more important on a larger layout though, but good habits arent a bad thing)


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

broox said:


> That layout is coming along beautifully!
> 
> Make sure to do the wiring good/properly(track to bus, especially), so if/when you upgrade to dcc you're not chasing potential headaches. Might be as easy as plugging the dcc controller into the bus
> 
> If your planning dcc in the future, probably good to wire the layout with no common ground (thats probably more important on a larger layout though, but good habits arent a bad thing)


Spent most of last night wiring. I went with each oval being a common ground. Well 2 bus points per ground wire. The outside oval is almost all seperate grounds. All the track is laid, I ended up taking out a section of spur on the inner loop only becausee it seemed to busy for the boys. It's an easy add in and will give me one more thing that over time I can add to keep his interest in the train going.

I did encounter 1 headache... With the different breaks my switches are acting funny. The area in the middle (short sections where the switching actually occurs... won't always have power  I fixed one with a small jumper wire from the other side of the switch area. Sort of a headache...

Tonight I will finish wiring some of the switches that I put in as power and put up the plexiglass barrier on the one side so my youngest doesn't hurt anything.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

NumberOne said:


> If you want to simplify the wiring and operation, you really don't need all those blocks. If you have two separate DC controllers, use a center-off DPDT toggle switch for each block. As a minimum, you just need separate blocks for the two loops. You will also need simple SPST switches so that you can isolate the power for any spurs that you want to park locos on. And even that isn't needed if your junior engineers simply remove the locos off the track.
> 
> -Mark


For right now the blocks are in place but all will be wired direct. My plan is to have small additions that can easily be implemented as the months go by. Once my boys are comfortable with the new layout a block can be added for more things to do with the train. I'm pre-planning so that I can have many additions that they can either help me add or that can appear as time goes on.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

broox said:


> That layout is coming along beautifully!
> 
> Make sure to do the wiring good/properly(track to bus, especially), so if/when you upgrade to dcc you're not chasing potential headaches. Might be as easy as plugging the dcc controller into the bus
> 
> If your planning dcc in the future, probably good to wire the layout with no common ground (thats probably more important on a larger layout though, but good habits arent a bad thing)


I do need some help with the bus.

I'm looking for something right now where I can tie multiple lines into one line going to the controller. I hate the look of 20 wires terminating at the controller.


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## NumberOne (Sep 19, 2012)

timbre said:


> For right now the blocks are in place but all will be wired direct. My plan is to have small additions that can easily be implemented as the months go by. Once my boys are comfortable with the new layout a block can be added for more things to do with the train. I'm pre-planning so that I can have many additions that they can either help me add or that can appear as time goes on.


That makes sense, as it is a lot easier to wire pre-existing blocks now rather than adding more blocks later. Also, you can use separate block wiring for block detection for signals and automation. 

-Mark


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

Well the boys loved the new layout. My oldest was speechless for at least 3 minutes. ( a record I think)

Did run into some problems. They were very erratic. Last week while building and wiring I had the table moved into the center of the room. Everything seemed to work well. Then we moved the table less than 4 feet one direction and 2 of my engines are now acting like they are shorting out every segment of track, I have cars de-railing everywhere that they wern't before and the worst part is my switches. It seems like every few times around the track the engine will completly loose power while going over a switch and just dead stop.

WHY??????

how can I fix this? it's real hard to be constantly running around the table giving engines a quick push.


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm a firm believer in KISS.

I have 2 wires servicing a couple hundred feet of track......with drops *soldered* every 6 feet (or so). No blocks, boosters or other foo-ferra.
3-4 engines parked & one running. I don't view MRRs as an exercise in electrical engineering.....I'm a modeler. I have about 12-15 TOs, all with insulated frogs....one of which has a long frog(just under 3") that caused a problem.......I have the solution but am too lazy to install it.

Everything else works just fine, thanks. If/when a problem arises, I'll fix it.

DCC is new to me. It seems more "sensitive" than DC but has advantages so one may as well us em'......see parked locos.

DCC seems extremely sensitive to dirt on both rails & wheels. Signals don't go where hey are supposed to with any number of causes.....including bad connections. 

So, see to the basics....cleanliness first. I ran trains Sunday for the first time in about a month of construction....that point was hammered home.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

JPIII said:


> I have about 12-15 TOs, all with insulated frogs....one of which has a long frog(just under 3") that caused a problem.......I have the solution but am too lazy to install it.


So what is the solution??? I need some ideas


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

With the long dead frog, a "frog juicer" (trade name.....goggle is your friend) does the trick. If the name doesn't come up on goggle, I'll root around and come up with a .com.

Your problem seems to be intermittent. If the loco passes the dead spot at high speed but not low speed, the frog may be the problem.....otherwise it's a wasted 16 bucks.

Other stuff enters into this. If one loco passes and another doesn't it may be the difference of the "spread" of the locos pickups (that is my problem). If your TOs are all the same, the frog is not the problem. Best I can do with the info supplied.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

JPIII said:


> With the long dead frog, a "frog juicer" (trade name.....goggle is your friend) does the trick. If the name doesn't come up on goggle, I'll root around and come up with a .com.
> 
> Your problem seems to be intermittent. If the loco passes the dead spot at high speed but not low speed, the frog may be the problem.....otherwise it's a wasted 16 bucks.
> 
> Other stuff enters into this. If one loco passes and another doesn't it may be the difference of the "spread" of the locos pickups (that is my problem). If your TOs are all the same, the frog is not the problem. Best I can do with the info supplied.


all of my turnouts are identical at this point. well there are slight variations between all of them in the center 'frog' section

It's a very intermittent and frustrating problem. The same loco can go around at low and high speed just fine... then at certain speeds it just stops.. That was my reasoning for thinking the frog. 

In general I'm just havinga ton of problems with all of my locos. My Bachman 0-6-0 steamer was running perfect... now the light flickers and it stutters around the track. I have a couple of tyco's that can't seem to make up their mind how they want to run. I've cleaned the track a couple of times. cleaned all the pickups on the locos and still the problems


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

just looked at the frog juicer... seems to be a dcc thing.... wondering if I have to manually jumper the frogs for power. that's not going to be fun


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

The flickering light is trying to tell you something......intermittent electrical contact. Why?
Dunno, I'm not there to find out.

You could have dirt on the wheels or on the interface between the wheels and the contacts on the frame.....a loose wire? I had a bad contact with the joiner wire, tender to loco on my 4-4-0...intermittent are the toughest to find.

Fun, ain't it.


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## timbre (Jan 21, 2013)

JPIII said:


> The flickering light is trying to tell you something......intermittent electrical contact. Why?
> Dunno, I'm not there to find out.
> 
> You could have dirt on the wheels or on the interface between the wheels and the contacts on the frame.....a loose wire? I had a bad contact with the joiner wire, tender to loco on my 4-4-0...intermittent are the toughest to find.
> ...


at least I have two weeks before the boys are back to find some of the problems. and the Bachman is going back to the factory on warrenty this week as well.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

Reclean all your track, especially really good where you have the most problems
Track gets dirty quickly

Rub your finger down the rail head. If you pick up any blackness on your finger then you need to clean your track.
9 times out of 10, you will pick up this black film of dirt. This is all it takes to create problems for our locos...

Also check your locomotive wheels for being dirty, the film of dirt likes to stick to the wheels...

Man if i only knew where this black dirt comes from?? I only find it on my track and loco wheels
I have a fairly clean basement too


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## NumberOne (Sep 19, 2012)

A "frog juicer" is useful for both DC and DCC layouts. Dead spots on turnouts can have multiple causes. Dirty track or pick-up wheels, bad or intermittent locomotive pick-ups, or simply using a loco without enough power pick-up axles to span an un-powered frog. The solution for that is simply powering the frog. Atlas makes a "snap relay" that can be wired in parallel with the switch machine and that can be used to automatically power the turnout frog. The snap relay also has an extra set of contacts that can be used for signals, such as a red indication for the turnout set to the diverging route, or green for straight through.

A bit more complicated is using a "Tortoise" slow-motion switch machine actuator, but that will work as well.

-Mark


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

NumberOne,
I think your mistaken, "Frog Juicer" will NOT work for DC, it is a DCC only device.
*Eliminates the need for mechanical switches to switch the frog polarity when the turnout is switched*
*Instant switching means no interruption to the engine or loss of sound*
*Significantly simplifies frog wiring - especially for crossings and double crossovers*
*Compatible with any DCC system *(It will not work with DC) 
*Simple to connect*
*An economical alternative to using a Hex Frog Juicer if only a single frog needs to be controlled.*
*Can be installed close to the trackwork being controlled, no need for long feeders.
*


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## NumberOne (Sep 19, 2012)

I made the mistake of referring to a specific product (i.e. the "Frog Juicer") rather than my intention of referring to the generic term of "juicing" (powering) a turnout frog.

I don't know about that specific product to say whether it's suitable for DC and/or DCC use.

-Mark


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