# the last year Lionel was made in America



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

hello what was the last year Lionel trains were manufactured in the USA thanks mine is a 2000 model


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Not sure the exact year but it was around the late 1980's or early 90's that Lionel went to China for everything. The # 6-23010  switches were made around 1995 in China.

Lee Fritz


----------



## Guest (Nov 14, 2016)

Engine in the late 90's, I think 1999.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

2016 according the 2016 volume 2 catalog.


----------



## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm interested in rocket's question, too and have been wondering about this myself. But come on people. This is a specific question that deserves a specific answer. "Not sure" and "I think" aren't cutting it. And this year, 2016???

Surely there must be a cut off year when Lionel trains were last made in the United States. What was that year? Somebody, maybe with some research skills, must know.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Well, the 2016 Volume 2 catalog does say the Lionscale cars are made in America (from parts made in the US and imported). There were also some box cars made few years ago in the US. Maybe better to ask what years Lionel was not made in the US.

Or if rocket is trying to find out if his trains were made in the US, what are the model numbers?


----------



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

Lehigh74 said:


> Well, the 2016 Volume 2 catalog does say the Lionscale cars are made in America (from parts made in the US and imported). There were also some box cars made few years ago in the US. Maybe better to ask what years Lionel was not made in the US.
> 
> Or if rocket is trying to find out if his trains were made in the US, what are the model numbers?


I am interested in all Lionel trains but I am the most interested in my train the gold 100th anniversary Hudson made in 2000
thanks for your help


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

kb2rocket said:


> I am interested in all Lionel trains but I am the most interested in my train the gold 100th anniversary Hudson made in 2000
> thanks for your help


Is there anything on the box that would indicate country of origin?
I think this engine is based on the 1991 Scale Hudson 18005 but with TMCC and wireless drawbar. It retains the same pullmor motor as well.

Pete


----------



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

I am currently away from the train I will look when I get home
.
I have noticed with some other products that the labeling sometimes is deceptive I have a knife at home that is marked in micro letters "design" then in huge letters it is " MADE IN USA " then in tiny letters " manufactured in china "
.
as long as it works I will be happy 
I am just curious


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

At one point _all _Lionel products were made in the US, then they dipped their toe in the water and tried some foreign assembly. But only some, still most made in the USA. But that foreign supplier worked for them. Over time they transferred more and more until there was none left. So there was not a specific year where they went from all-in-the-USA to all-outside. But there would be a year when they last had anything they sold made here . . . I think in the '80s, but I'd have to do more research than I want. 

I do think that final year was prior to 1986 when General Mills spun them off, but during the time when they were owned by them. I'd guess 1982 but that is only a guess.

And definitely, it was before 1996, at least if you believe wikipedia: if you look p the current company their article on them starts with:"Lionel, LLC is an American designer and importer of toy trains and model railroads" Notice they say importer. 

Regardless, Lionel recently - stress on recently . . . the last few years, started making a few items here. Maybe it will be the reverse this time gradually more and more made here. Time will tell. I can tell you that Lionel (and MTH) having their products made in China, etc., isn't working that well for me, and I am sure, them, so they have the incentive.


----------



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

Usa address on the master box


----------



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

This was on the box that contained the engine and coal car


----------



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

The caboose apparently is made in Korea 

An American legend made in Korea ha ha ha


----------



## kb2rocket (Nov 13, 2016)

I am encouraged that lionel makes a variety of box cars and flat cars here in the USA perhaps this could be the beginning of a trend although we would be hard pressed to be competitive with electronics


----------



## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

OK. Was looking around on my Ipad tonight while watching TV and found the answer (at least to my question). In 2001, Lionel closed is last manufacturing plant in the United States and outsourcesd its manufacturing to Korea and China starting in August. (Wikipedia, ToyTrains.info, CTT - May, 2001))

So, the year was 2001.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I remember talking to Maddox when Lionel became an importer and not a manufacture of electric trains. He stated that they just were no longer competitive with MTH and had to make the move to save the company.

Bill


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I’ve been getting rid of some old magazines and paging thru them first to see if there are any I want to keep. In the May 2001 CTT there is an article about Lionel closing its last US plant in Michigan. Richard Maddox is quoted as saying what would cost ½ million dollars to tool in the US would cost $50,000 to $75,000 in Asia and that half of Lionel production was already imported from Asia.


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I received my first set in the late 1990's and it was definitely made in the USA. I believe the last locomotive they made here before the more recent USA made cars was a model of a NKP berkshire steam locomotive based on the postwar berkshire tooling and that was in the plant here in Michigan.


----------



## PRR1950 (Oct 26, 2013)

In an interesting addendum to this discussion, I was talking to a guy trying to sell a PRR T1 with TMCC at the DuPage Trainshow yesterday, and he claimed it was the last loco made by Lionel in the US. Who knows, might have been one of several loco types made by that Michigan plant just before it closed.

Chuck


----------



## DeltaPapa (Dec 19, 2016)

Does "Made and lithographed in the USA" on the box refer to just the box or the contents as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Here's a thread from the CTT magazine forum that may shed some light on things

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/166.aspx


----------



## todamtall (Nov 15, 2016)

In one of my "Lionel History" books it says that some lionel trains and parts were made in JAPAN starting in "68. In '69 all motors & E-units were made in JAPAN.


----------



## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

kb2rocket said:


> hello what was the last year Lionel trains were manufactured in the USA thanks mine is a 2000 model


The last year they worked properly on average, before manufacturing was outsourced to the "Land That Quality Forgot".


----------



## PaperTRW (Dec 11, 2015)

chipset35 said:


> The last year they worked properly on average, before manufacturing was outsourced to the "Land That Quality Forgot".


Not sure where this comment originates from, but it's not based in fact. 

Lionel quality actually improved with the move offshore in 2001, dramatically in some categories. This is also notable as in many cases, the complexity of the product increased as well.

I can't speak for how good or bad it is today. But one shouldn't paint with such a broad brush.

TRW


----------



## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

PaperTRW said:


> Not sure where this comment originates from, but it's not based in fact.
> 
> Lionel quality actually improved with the move offshore in 2001, dramatically in some categories. This is also notable as in many cases, the complexity of the product increased as well.
> 
> ...


It's funny sometimes, how an older thread is suddenly resurrected and we get a new batch of forum members' perspectives.

TRW: I don't think chipset's comment was too far off the mark. Can you state specific examples where Lionel's quality improved "dramatically in some categories" after all manufacturing was outsourced to China?

Yes, the complexities of some Lionel products may have increased after manufacturing moved to China, but the overall quality of those products is still questionable. 

FYI: In present day, quality control over there seems non-existent.


----------



## PaperTRW (Dec 11, 2015)

Yellowstone Special said:


> TRW: I don't think chipset's comment was too far off the mark. Can you state specific examples where Lionel's quality improved "dramatically in some categories" after all manufacturing was outsourced to China?
> 
> Yes, the complexities of some Lionel products may have increased after manufacturing moved to China, but the overall quality of those products is still questionable.
> 
> FYI: In present day, quality control over there seems non-existent.


I was a manager at Lionel during the primary offshore manufacturing transition in 2001. For several years following the move (our team was shown the door in late 2004), we tracked out-of-box/warranty issues on these items. We mostly compared categories -- high-end and entry-level for things like steam, diesel, rolling stock, sets, etc. The results were that warranty claims, as a percentage of items sold, were down versus when the same categories were made in the US. In the case of high-end steam locos (one of my managed categories), the numbers dropped dramatically to less than 1%. I'm certainly not saying there weren't occasional problems, but there were fewer of them versus when the items were produced here.

The Chinese (and Koreans, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, etc.) are perfectly capable of producing quality products. The idea isn't new -- companies in many different industries have been successfully utilizing this option for decades. As a country we may not like it, but there's no reason to ignorantly condemn the manufactured product of an entire country. 

As mentioned above, I can't speak for how things may be today in the model train space. But perhaps a more accurate statement from the prior paragraph is to say that the Chinese are perfectly capable of meeting the expectations of the companies that contracted them. If one is seeing persistent products lacking quality, I'd suggest that the root of the problem lays elsewhere.

TRW


----------



## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

PaperTRW said:


> I was a manager at Lionel during the primary offshore manufacturing transition in 2001. For several years following the move (our team was shown the door in late 2004), we tracked out-of-box/warranty issues on these items. We mostly compared categories -- high-end and entry-level for things like steam, diesel, rolling stock, sets, etc. The results were that warranty claims, as a percentage of items sold, were down versus when the same categories were made in the US. In the case of high-end steam locos (one of my managed categories), the numbers dropped dramatically to less than 1%. I'm certainly not saying there weren't occasional problems, but there were fewer of them versus when the items were produced here.
> 
> The Chinese (and Koreans, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, etc.) are perfectly capable of producing quality products. The idea isn't new -- companies in many different industries have been successfully utilizing this option for decades. As a country we may not like it, but there's no reason to ignorantly condemn the manufactured product of an entire country.
> 
> ...


Ah ha! A former Lionel guy who was there right after the manufacturing shift! 

I can only go from my experience and what I've seen others state on the forums from their experiences with Lionel's China-made products.

My experiences were well after you had left. But I purchased Lionel's Scale F3 conventional (Santa Fe #18) and a Legacy GP7, both in 2008. They were shelf queens until I completed an operating layout in 2011. 

Both locomotives became problematic after some short run time, with the F3 having been sent in to the Lionel Service Center when it was in Ohio 3 times, and the GP7 2 times. Then both had to be repaired again later for the same problems by a Lionel authorized service station. 

Both locos had to have both motors and circuit boards replaced multiple times. I sold the F3, kept the Legacy GP7 and have purchased only 1 new Lionel conventional locomotive since.

From what I've been reading in this forum recently with DOA locos from China, and some that experience problems right after being put on the track, it sounds like nothing has changed. If these problems aren't with China quality control, I don't know where else the problem would lie.

It seems that effective quality control would identify inferior parts or inadequate assembly and correct them. Yet these problems persist.


----------

