# Rookie Question: Do Drive Rods move in tandem?



## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Hi fellas: I have a Lionel 224 and it's started doing something that makes me ask this question. do the drive rods on both sides of a locomotive move in tandem? Meaning do they move together in the same position. My 224 has started locking up out of the blue. One second running next full stop. Then I can't get the drive wheels to move over a forth of a turn, & I notice the drive rods are in different positions. What's going on here?


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

I am not an expert but the rod are shifted 1/4 of a round. they are not at the same time 0 or 180 degrees, just 0 degrees and 90 degrees.
Andre.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Interesting.. Thank you Andre!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That engine did not come with magnatraction right?

Take a look at the gears, inspect them carefully.
A piece of solder or something may have been picked up jamming them.
It happened to someone here.

Check for a gear missing a tooth also.

All the rod screws tight, and the spacers are there?


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

big ed said:


> That engine did not come with magnatraction right?
> 
> Take a look at the gears, inspect them carefully.
> A piece of solder or something may have been picked up jamming them.
> ...


224 doesn't have magnetraction.
nickel rims only
AG.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

AG216 said:


> 224 doesn't have magnetraction.
> nickel rims only
> AG.


I did not think so, my book is down stairs in the dungeon and I am too lazy to go down and get it.
Sounds like something may be in the gears making it jam?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

AG216 said:


> I am not an expert but the rod are shifted 1/4 of a round. they are not at the same time 0 or 180 degrees, just 0 degrees and 90 degrees.
> Andre.


Correct, at least for all the ones I just looked at.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm going to inspect my gears carefully. I'll let you guys know.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If a wheel slips, the rods can be "out of quarter" and they'll bind. You can slowly turn it over manually and see if the rods ever get tight and bind, that's a sure sign that you have some sort of issue.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

That's funny John, It's been slipping lately. Bummer.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, note that I'm not talking about slipping on the rails, but rather a wheel slipping on the axle. Slipping on the rails is normal.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Oh, Ok John. I looked at all my gears and as I was turning it it locked up. Looks like the repair shop for it!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Before you ship it out, make SURE nothing is stuck in a gear, that happens quite often and is easy to remove. If the rods suddenly get tight at one point, then it may have a quartering problem.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

FlintNodule said:


> Oh, Ok John. I looked at all my gears and as I was turning it it locked up. Looks like the repair shop for it!



Did you see anything wrong with the gears?
A missing or bent tooth will do that.
More likely something is in one making it jam.

Are you sure the rods aren't causing it to jam?
Edit,
Look close at the crosshead too.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Ed & John, I see nothing that would stop the drive wheels in the gears. Ed I checked the gears but she locked up & I didn't finish my looking!  That's what I'm thinking that it's the rods are out of order some how?


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

big ed said:


> Did you see anything wrong with the gears?
> A missing or bent tooth will do that.
> More likely something is in one making it jam.
> 
> ...


Ed, what's the crosshead!


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

FlintNodule said:


> Ed, what's the crosshead!


the connector between the piston and the connecting rod.
it is moving on a single or double rails.
Andre.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Here is a picture link, I think.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos%5Cloc224p3.pdf

If the valve rod is broken or bent where it goes into the crosshead, it will jam the motor also.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks guys!


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Before sending it out, remove one set side rods. Check it again, if problem goes away, the quartering is wrong. If it persists, there is another issue.

Carl


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Kwikster said:


> Before sending it out, remove one set side rods. Check it again, if problem goes away, the quartering is wrong. If it persists, there is another issue.
> 
> Carl


agreed.


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## D1566 (Jun 8, 2012)

Sorry gents I don't think that is correct - there is a chance that taking one set of rods off will let the 'slack' in the axles/rods make the side with rods lock up. Personally I would disengage the motor and turn the wheels and motion by hand feeling for the binding spot that way, it should be possible to see what is catching then.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

This is the greatest board. Thank you for your ideas.  Interesting too, I was just running my trains & looking at old 224 it's a bummer. I'll get her fixed with the help of all you good men. Thanks so much.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

D1566 said:


> Sorry gents I don't think that is correct - there is a chance that taking one set of rods off will let the 'slack' in the axles/rods make the side with rods lock up. Personally I would disengage the motor and turn the wheels and motion by hand feeling for the binding spot that way, it should be possible to see what is catching then.


Interesting. Man, this is quite an operation. It's getting easy to hit the binding spot. She locking up all the time now. I can't get a good view of the binding spot though. This will be interesting to track down. Thanks again fellas.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

And think of the satisfaction of fixing it yourself. You'll also have more train money to buy new stuff with.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

I wish I knew how to fix it John. I could try. Don't know where to start.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

the start would be with a good diagnosis. the first step is knowing the problem which is. which is the wheels are locked up. than from there use it like a flow chart. the motor is the power source. check the operation of the motor. does the motor itself spin freely. if so check the gears. check gears for any missing teeth cracks or even see if they are out of line. sometimes with these old locos the grease becomes concrete. also there could be something in the gears bindng them up. if the gears check out than i would look into the axles. its all about the flow. start with the basics first than move down.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

I noticed the whole gear assembly and wheels are loose. Quite a bit of play in them. That's one thing nj!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Did you try removing rods one at a time to see if that stops the binding?


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

The drivers are,as stated above,quartered.Check all of the side rod and valve gear screws to see if they are tight.Also check to see that they are not bent.Also if a wheel is loose on its axle binding can happen and cause various problems.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

I've removed part of one side now I begin to worry. Can I get this back together? Everything seems tight. I'm beginning to think the binding are the gears because there is so much play in that assembly.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

There will be a little play but not much.
Many locos have the motors mounted so they can be adjusted.
Sometimes a shim may be needed.

Do you still have binding with the rods off?
Most locos like this will run without the rods.You should be able to narrow this down.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Chores around the house, cutting grass.. have kept me from removing the drive rods to see if it's still binding. Should have them tonight!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The worst thing that can happen is that you end up with a pile of spare parts.

The rods are easy to get back on just take the screws out and lay them down so you know which side is which, some engines it matters.
Keep the screws and spacers in the rods after you take it off so you know where they go.
Make a diagram if it will make you feel better.
Take a picture of their positions too, for reference.

With the rods off see what happens when you put it on the track and apply power to the motor.

If it is still binding then it is not the rods.

Then we will go to step two.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks big Ed! You make me feel better.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Worst comes to worst, we'll help you get the rods back on. Trust me, it's possible to put it back together.


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## Wabashbud (Jun 25, 2010)

I recently rebuilt a 224 and my problem with the rods jamming was in the valve gear. The eccentric rod is held on with a screw through the eccentric crank and it can be installed two different ways. The crank has tabs that fit into notches in the wheel and unless it is in the correct position the valve gear will lock up. If that screw gets loose the crank can change position. Check it out.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Thank you John! I may need your help! I can't get to my project tonight, chores ran over but I'll have all day tomorrow to tinker! Thanks Wabashbud I'll look into that tomorrow!


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Well, I did it. The drive rods are off & Drum roll please.... The wheels are still locked. Nothing that I see in the gears. Now what? My motor locked up?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if the rods are all off, it's down to the gears and the motor. Time to remove it from the shell and see if the motor armature moves at all. Might be something jammed in the armature.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Did you try to run it?

If it has a worm gear you can't move the wheels by turning them.
You would need to turn the armature-drive shaft.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It doesn't have a worm gear, it's a Lionel 224.

Here's the Lionel 224 Maintenance Manual


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

She locked up tighter than Dick's hatband. Thank you John for the manual. Don't see anything. Parts and more parts. It's turning about a third turn and stops. It's clean. Gears are clean, lightly greased.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

That sounds as if "something" is stopping rotation,as has been pointed out several times,but what?The side rods and valve gear are disconnected?The shell is off?Wheels are in line?No bent axle?Is it possible to remove any of the gears?

This is like trying to describe a color by telephone.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm guessing this is something inside the motor. Something in the gears would be pretty obvious on that locomotive, they're right there for all to see.

I'm guessing it's time to take the brush plate off and see what's going on inside the motor.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Well, after I got a good look at the gears, there are no broken teeth. I'm thinking something is wrong with the Armature Pinion Or a wheel axle? I'm getting in over my head now fellas. I'm thinking a pro needs to look this over. I'm at a stopping point. it's been interesting, John with out those plans I'd been lost, & I've learned a lot. I guess I'll call my 'man' tomorrow and see If I can ship this thing out in pieces? I know how it is to get things in pieces & try to put them together. Haha, I like the line rogruth, 'Trying to describe a color over the telephone'..  Thank you to everyone! I LOVE this place. (if anyone has any ideas let me know?).


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Did you take the shell off?
It is only a couple of screws?


Get in there and pop the brush plate off after removing the shell.
You can do it! (just more parts for the basket.)

Here is T mans 224, see the front and back 2 screws hold the front and back wheels on. Then in the first picture you can just make out another screw under the wheel set there should be 2 more front and back take them out and the shell should come off.

















I don't know if I have a 224 or else I would take it apart with pictures to show you, maybe I will go and take a look.

Where is the T man? 
He should know exactly what holds it on.

Do you see the screws I am talking about?

Edit,
Those pictures are from T mans thread,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3102


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Flint, the older loco's are rather simple to work on. If you have a digital camera, take pics as you progress thru dis-assembly to aid in reassembly. They can be invaluable. Once the shell is off it will be straight forward to remove the brush plate and commutator. We'll help you as much as we can, you'll be fine with it. The only thing I haven't done yet is re-quartering wheels, as I've not needed to.

Carl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Kwikster said:


> Flint, the older loco's are rather simple to work on. If you have a digital camera, take pics as you progress thru dis-assembly to aid in reassembly. They can be invaluable. Once the shell is off it will be straight forward to remove the brush plate and commutator. We'll help you as much as we can, you'll be fine with it. The only thing I haven't done yet is re-quartering wheels, as I've not needed to.
> 
> Carl


I forgot to add......when you take the pictures post them here, we might be able to see something wrong from the pictures.


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

In the second picture the eccentric crank look off a lot off.
this one suppose to be close to the wheel center.
Andre.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

AG216 said:


> In the second picture the eccentric crank look off a lot off.
> this one suppose to be close to the wheel center.
> Andre.



Now he has all the rods off and the motor is still binding up.


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

big ed said:


> Now he has all the rods off and the motor is still binding up.


The wheels are die cast, so the gear on them is die cast too correct?
So, if the engine was over used the gear might be damaged.
Andre.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> I forgot to add......when you take the pictures post them here, we might be able to see something wrong from the pictures.


Good catch Big Ed. Didn't think of that when writing at the time. It can help to take pictures from a couple angles. 

Carl


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

The November issue of Classic Toy Trains,the latest issue,has an article on troubleshooting vintage locos on page 74 that might be of help to you.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree with the other posts, by working on this yourself, you'll gain valuable insights into maintenance. It gets expensive if you have to pay for mechanical work anytime something breaks in your layout.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

I agree. I need something like this to happen so I can finally get into a locomotive. Know it's workings, & buy some small tools!  Ed I did remove the shell. I'll be looking deeply into my 224. Is the November Issue out? I need to buy a new camera so I can post some pictures. This should be interesting. And I want to thank you all for your time and trouble. Your all a great help to me. Ed & John your always there. I'd like to say hello to members I've not had the pleasure to meet. And thank you for giving me support!! 8D


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

FlintNodule said:


> I agree. I need something like this to happen so I can finally get into a locomotive. Know it's workings, & buy some small tools!  Ed I did remove the shell. I'll be looking deeply into my 224. Is the November Issue out? I need to buy a new camera so I can post some pictures. This should be interesting. And I want to thank you all for your time and trouble. Your all a great help to me. Ed & John your always there. I'd like to say hello to members I've not had the pleasure to meet. And thank you for giving me support!! 8D


Pull the brushplate off, this is yours, this picture is from t mans thread,
BE CAREFUL WITH THE WIRES SO YOU DON'T BREAK THEM OFF. Just place it on the side.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5545&highlight=morgue










Inside you will find this, it will probably be black you will need to clean that, the grooves too, but before you remove it see if it turns. ( by your hand)
















I don't have much time tonight.

I wonder why the t man doesn't jump in, he most likely has a bunch more pictures and info on the 224.

Wish I had more time to detail better but don't right now. I will throw t man a pm.


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## FlintNodule (Feb 25, 2012)

Thank you so much Ed!  This will be a catch as catch can repair. I too am busy at times but I'll keep the thread open!  Thanks my friend.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Of the 224's, that I have the armatures are not removable. Unless you have a wheel puller.I venture to guess the center screw is loose or bent aand the eccentric crank is binding. My 1615 has the sam etype of rod and it will bind. The black post has to sit in the slot at the right orientation. I will see what I have for pictures.











Notice the center post is offset and the crank joint points inward toward the center.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The left side down and the right facing back are properly quartered..



















The center piece with the two bottom nubs.










The stick point as the top right piece moves forward and the black piece moves aft.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks T man. 
Edit,
Is that one drive rod epoxied on yours? 



He has all the rods off (he says) and the motor still binds?

Maybe the armature pinion gear is messed up?
I don't think I ever had one of them that was bad, yet.

Could a brush jam it up somehow?

Sounds like to me one of the gears are messed up.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A bad tooth will stop an engine. I rotate the wheel to the trouble spot to id the bad tooth. The gear tooth may appear shiny from being deformed and just doesn't want to play with the rest A little file action is needed to clear it up. It is a mechanical problem, so you will have to be observant to id the bad area. Try some close up pictures then we can decide what to do next. More than likely it will be two or three teeth.

Ed it has no epoxy.

Try this picture.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The rod in your picture T, it looks braised? Epoxy?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

ED, that is new to me. I must of bought it that way.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> ED, that is new to me. I must of bought it that way.


Maybe the train fairies fixed it while you were sleeping?

Eye







see all.......:smokin:


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

> Eye
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think so....I can't see my mother in law....
AG.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

AG216 said:


> I don't think so....I can't see my mother in law....
> AG.


My X mother in law was hot. :thumbsup:
Even though she was double my age back then, she was hot!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

On a closer look it was done with brass. Eagle Eye Ed to the rescue!

It is interesting to find something new after a picture is taken. WHen working on a project I use the pictures to guide me. Flaws tend to be more obvious for some reason.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

FlintNodule said:


> That's funny John, It's been slipping lately. Bummer.


I think he meant if a wheel slips on an axle, not the track


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

santafe158 said:


> I think he meant if a wheel slips on an axle, not the track


Ooops, didn't realize this thread was already 7 pages long.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

santafe158 said:


> Ooops, didn't realize this thread was already 7 pages long.


Sidebar...

... 7 pages long at 10 posts per page. But, did you know you can dial your settings to show up to 40 posts per page? User Control Panel, then Edit Options. Much easier thread reading, in my opinion.

Regards,

TJ


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