# Lionel 665 Engine not working correctly



## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

Hello,

After a long hiatus I dug out my 665 set that my grandfather bought back in 1954. Last year it wasn't working at all so I had it sent out to be cleaned. At that time brushes were also replaced and it worked fine last christmas. Anyway, this year i take it back out and it would hardly run at all on the orig tube track at would not move on the MTH track so I took it down to the local shop to have it looked at. 

According to one of the guys I spoke to who is very well versed in trains, he said that the E Unit was not working correctly - something about he could hear it dropping when power was applied? explained to me somewhat how to take it apart and put a bit of oil on it to see if that would help it. Also showed me how tight the wheels were, which makes it a lot harder for the train to move. I have no idea how this relates to the E Unit. I took it apart but did not see anything that I could call a plunger so I just applied a bit of oil to the 'hinge' that the shaft that comes out of the E Unit attaches to - that is, the shaft that sticks out of the top of the engine body. Excuse me if I am talking stupid as my knowledge of these things is very limited. After putting it back together it ran very well on both types of tracks and I thought the problem was fixed, but after maybe 20 mins or so it slowed down and got stuck again - totally stopped moving. The wheels still seem pretty tight.

Can anyone give me ideas on what to do now? What confuses me the most is how fast and well it seemed to run at first but then stops altogether. THe power to the tracks seems fine, so my guess is somethnig is up with the engine. I mean , I don't even know if the spot I oiled was the plunger that he spoke of.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The rod nuts need to be tight. If a crank is out of position the motor gets tight. Usually it's the one that sticks out.


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## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

T-man,

Can you elaborate a bit on the crank position and where to look to check it?

BTW, i put it on the tracks this morning and it did the same thing....ran for 5-7 mins that got slower and slower until it stopped completely.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

MDH,

I don't have a suggestion at this moment, but you've got some great experience with T-Man in the mix.

To help you with debugging, I think you should read the pages below, and study the diagrams ... it'll help with further dialog here. Click on each page individually, and it'll pop open as a pdf. (You likely won't be able to print them, though.)

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=615

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

mdh157 said:


> T-man,
> 
> Can you elaborate a bit on the crank position and where to look to check it?
> 
> BTW, i put it on the tracks this morning and it did the same thing....ran for 5-7 mins that got slower and slower until it stopped completely.



The number 665 685 2056 & 2065 engines are the same except from the boilers front and the numbers.

The best diagram I can find for you.
The eccentric crank is in the middle.









Came from Olsens site TJ put in.


Did you check all in between the gears for foreign objects?
As your motor in magnatraction it will pick up stray metal objects and get caught up in your engine.


edit,


what transformer do you have?
How much track you powering?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Here. I have my 2056. If that center screw is loose the engine will jam. So check both sides. The black piece has two prongs to set in. The screw needs to be straight too. My 1666 was stubborn like this and the 1615 did that to me too.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you have a sudden lock up check the linkage. The front topof the forward drive wheel is busy and some loose piece may overlap and jamb.


A slow stall just check for heat. If hot the top of the armature needs cleaning or the motor is dying. If you suspect the e unit, lock it so it goes forward only. This is done by moving the lever.

The engine may need a little running. They don't perform perfectly directly from storage. 

You can always pull the motor out and run it alone.

Pictures may help too.


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## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

guys, thanks for the help, but stand by, just got worse here. I had it running and it was gonig pretty well for almost a half hour and then when i went to change my sons diaper (which took maybe 3 mins) apparently it stopped and by the tiem i walked back into the living room I smelled it a mile away. turned off the transformer (big ed, it's the orig KW and I am powering a loop oval that is almost 4x8') but apparently it's too late......was so hot i couldn't touch it, now it's cooled down but it won't move......clicks when i hit the dir button on both the tubed and MTH track but doesn't move on either. Like i said, I'm no expert on these but it wouldn't surprise me if the eng is burned up. I'm 2 seconds from throwing the whole thing in the garbage - don't think i've been this mad in years.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, even if you cooked the engine, you can buy replacement parts and get it running. They're listed for $200 with the tender on eBay, so it's not a throw-away item. http://compare.ebay.com/like/260660...ff3e0e5&itemid=260660199027&ff4=263602_304662

I'd start by pulling the engine and see what the actual situation is.


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

It sounds like you learned the hard way to never leave a model train unattended 

Motors for these do pop up often on eBay though... Follow John's advice and take it apart to see what burned, whether it be wires, the coil, or the e-unit...


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I send my condolences.
Do the autopsy with pictures,
Sometimes the drum breaks and fries the rest.
All you really need is the armature, but to replace it you have to remove a wheel. A whole motor may be the better choice. It is less work and the quickest recovery. The e unit may need work too.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's an example of one that's already sold, but it went for $27: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...si=v9UaVd5ow4vxYNHpm5nlQzCR%2Fno%3D&viewitem=

A bit more expensive, but available: http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-New-old-...644464?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3cb2040070


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

MDH,

Condolences, too. Post pics of the motor (without the shell) from a few angles. Is there any evidence (charring, etc.) as to the root source of the heat / fried whatever?

Take a few days away to settle down, then rethink. With some patience and t.l.c., it may be that the motor can be fixed.

TJ


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## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

guys, thank you for the input.....i will dissect a bit tonight and take some pics. It had cooled down but even after 2 hrs there was still a strong smell, seemed to be coming from the motor........that distinct smell you get when this type of stuff starts to burn. i'm sure you all know what I mean.

to top it off I tried to run my MTH last night and it would only go so fast before it would stop when you pressed the speed up on the remote....I have 2 mth engines and they both did the same thing. I don't supp the remote batts could cause that if they were bad?

when it rains, it pours!


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## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

ok, got some pics. How do I post them....perhaps load into photobucket and just post the link?

looks like the armature is burned up


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

mdh157 said:


> ok, got some pics. How do I post them....


To upload it to the forum, open the full reply window and use the _*Manage Attachments*_ button to upload it here.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You may have to toggle the "Go Advanced" editor button down at the bottom. Use the paper clip icon to upload images (or upload to independent source, like 'bucket). Once uploaded (to wherever), click on the image to see its URL address. Ctrl-C copy that address. Then, back here in the forum editor, use the mountain icon to embed the url address, which sticks it between IMG tags like this:










TJ


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## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

Pics! They are all of the armature side as the rest of the assembly looks just fien...also, would you believe there is still a strong odor coming from it, which seems to me to be the strongest at the armature.









































I keep telling myself that it sat for about 48 years before it was used again 3 years ago, so sooner or later something was bound to happen.......just think this could have maybe been avoided if I could have figured out why it was slowing on its own....maybe

and of course my MTH isn't running right either.......only runs slow, then stops and reverses direction sometimes when i am pressing the speed button on the handheld remote. The way it looks we won't have a train at all this year - not a running one.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

MDH,

That's a LOT of gunk on that armature face, and likely in way of the brushes, too. Needs a good cleaning / oil / lube, for sure.

I've found that GooGone applied with Q-tips and pipe cleaners does a great job of cleaning away old grease and grime. You need to get that copper armature face looking nice and shiny again, and make sure there's no crud in the crevices between the 3 copper plate sections. Servoguy here on the forum highly recommends using 5W-20 motor oil for lubrication. Do a "search" for his comments on this.

Regards,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

From the look of the armature, I think it's past cleaning! The brush plate looks a bit charred as well.


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## mdh157 (Mar 27, 2008)

so I need a new engine - or at least an armature and brush plate!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

mdh157 said:


> so I need a new engine - or at least an armature and brush plate!


Well, from the pictures, that would be my read. However, I'd wait for the real motor experts to weigh in, maybe it can be saved. I'd certainly really clean up both pieces to see what they look like after that. I see a lot of burning on the brush plate, that can't be good.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

MDH,

It's hard for me to tell from the photos whether that's greasy gunk that's built up on the commutator plates of the armature (and brush plate, too), or whether things electrically arced, and you burnt into or through one of the copper commutator plates.

If it's gunk, go at it with GooGone, a wire brush. If the copper plates are still under all that, you may find that they're ridgy, rather than smooth. If the ridges are bad, you can try to lightly smooth them out with very fine sandpaper (800 grit, perhaps).

However, before you go too far, you might want to check the armature windings for continuity with a multimeter. You should have a closed circuit (with some resistance) between any two pairs of the commutator plates. If not, then there's likely a short in the armature windings.

Again, hard to tell from your photos how much of the black is greasy grime, vs. how much is flat-out "toast".

Give it a good cleaning and see ...

TJ


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