# The Next One - Ramblings



## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

I'm looking to make use of the lessons I'm learning with my current layout so that I'll be better prepared for the next one. As such I'm going to start compiling ideas and improvements in this thread, it just helps keep me organized and having it public will hopefully let the community tell me when I've proposed something silly.

My gripes with the current layout is my sections are too large to handle alone and are not removable once installed. I could dismantle and move the railroad but cannot take a section out to access the underside or backside easily. I'm fairly happy with the quality of my track laying using Peco code 55, but modifying and soldering the switches is a real pain. I find I end up melting ties, even if only a little bit, it still bugs me. I would really like to do away with the plastic ties completely.

I've looked into the existing module standards and they seem very restrictive. I guess I'm looking for something that has 4 or 5 different building blocks with staging incorporated. Visible track is hard to get a flowing look with modules that are completely interchangeable. Staging on the other hand can be very plain and straight (resuable). I'm not looking to build the Taj Mahal, more like a framework I can use for the next 10 years removing sections and replacing them as my modeling skills improve. Sections would simply rest on L-girders shot to level with a laser and be held together with alignment dowels and clamps or bolts.


So far my wish list includes the following.

Semi modular/sectional
Moveable to a new home.
Reconfigurable to maximize available room at new location, be it bigger or smaller.
Built in stand alone operable sections. Electronics contained within individual sections. Main and accessory bus/LocoNet hookups only.
Removeable sections as to enable work at a workbench.
Small enough sections to handle alone. 4' x 4' maximum size, standard section 4' x 2'.
Sections are interchangeable, but only the staging. Visible track would be reworked if section order is reconfigured.

Staging
More.
Longer.
Reversing capable. Either reverted loop or balloon track.
Operate in loop to loop, or continuous run.
Able to radically remodel visible portion without disrupting staging.
Accessible.
Automated.

Track
Hand laid. Building in stand alone sections will make this rewarding rather than a chore.
Custom switches.
No more plastic ties.
No track grades.
Able to be left in non-climate controlled space. I have a shop that I heat to just above freezing during the winter but that's all.


So far I've come up with the following module standard. Visible tracks not shown, build from red to red.










I currently have a 20' x 12' space available, though I would prefer to keep it along the walls. So no peninsula at this time.

Corners are 4'x4' with 2' faceplates. Most rooms will have at least two 8' walls.
End loops are 3'x4' with 2' faceplates.
Standard Sections are 2'x4'. They could be custom built to lengths to fit the available space.

*End Loops*
The end loops are a reverted design, they can be used as standard loops as well if connected on the staging track, but even a single one is capable of flipping trains in either direction. Drive into staging, reverse through loop back into staging tracks. They utilize a 13" radius which is larger than Kato's standard starter set (12-3/8"). Trains might not look good on it but it works. The outer radius is comfortable 16" radius. Hidden sections are right to the edge of the layout, but will be protected by facia or the wall. Visible sections are a minimum of 3" from layout edge. Turnouts are kept 2.5" from edge to leave room for Tortoise machines installed without remote mounts.

*Standard Sections*
The standard sections contain the staging ladders and tracks. again, right to the edge of the layout, trains are protected from falling by the wall. Since the sections are removable access for construction won't be an issue. After accounting for the staging tracks and support for either a removable mountain or backdrop there is 18" remaining. Potentially could create sections that bump out to a maximum 36" wide.

*Corners*
Corners are designed to continue staging in otherwise typically hard to use space. Usable clearance from front of layout to staging increases to about 26" around the corner. Looking at it now I could also reduce these to 3'x3' without issue.

I'm looking to add more types of possible sections, maybe bulbous end for a peninsula. A very large layout would do well with some sort of a crossover section in staging.


I'll continue to add to this thread as more issues with my current layout come up.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Ok, did a bunch of prototype research.

My desire it to model something a lot closer to the prototype this time. Not exact scenes, but really capture the essence. Pick a much smaller area and focus on it.

I want to continue with Canadian National in the modern era (2010s) since I have a lot of their engines already, I also want the scenery to be from BC (which has like every Biome, its great). Maybe something where I would see more Canadian Pacific locomotives too for variety.

The more I look at my current unfinished layout the more I really want to have some bigger industries on it, someplace for the trains to go not just pass through.

I've selected the shared CP/CN line that runs to the port of Vancouver along the south side of the Burrard Inlet.


Both CN and CP traffic.
Petroleum, Grain, and Intermodal Traffic. I will fudge Coal but no terminal, modern terminals are far too large.
Escarpment is perfect for hiding rear staging.
Great detail on Google Earth.


This is a small container yard without gantry cranes or access to the water. Perfect size to model.









Grain Terminal.










The refinery actually sits on the escarpment, the rail access is below. Perfect!











A rough draft...still very much a work in progress.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Maybe build a module for one of the ends that is a turntable/roundhouse that you could insert in.... would be something different


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

A couple of ideas to make things easy.
Attach the power bus to the benchwork with a terminal strip at every 2nd modular seam. Power drops for the modules would simply connect/disconnect there.

4x2 can be cumbersome to move solo. I would mull the idea of using two 1x4 boards that can be moved individually. Dowels may not even be needed. A lot easier to move. 1x4 shelves can be bought in various forms; pine, MDF, etc.
And you could not only have track on one, scenery on the other, but you could have independent track on each if desired.

Unless you are planning to join an N-Trak club, module standards needn’t be heeded. You just need new “replacement module” track to align with adjacent modules… which eliminates that standard exhibition oval appearance.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Also, just a thought…. Keep the water areas permanent & industrial areas behind removable. That both eliminates any seams in the water and you only need to do the water once.

It’d be nifty being able to swap out the intermodal yard with a passenger station,while keeping the rear half of that area (staging?) in place… with the 1x4 dimension that I mentioned above.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Bus to benchwork! Excellent idea. And here I was going to daisy chain them. That sounds way better.

I think I can manage 4x2 alone. The 4x4 and 3x4 modules may require help. If the staging and display are different modules I can't share electronics between the two. Having the modules in 4' sections already means potentially not fully utilizing electronic components.

The only constraint I've really left myself with this is not to bridge a module with a turnout. Large scenery items like mountains or industrial buildings could be removed as a whole. Really the desire is to be able to complete the trackwork and wiring in small pieces.

The more I look at it the more I think I'll just construct and entire additional module staging and all as replacements should I want a different look rather then change the scenery on an existing. Otherwise I would be either having a complete separate electronic system for the staging on each section or have to rewire sections when changing track arrangement. This would also allow me to build a "library" of modules. Maybe have like a set of modules for an earlier era.

The water is an easy solution. I think Model Railroader had an article using plexiglass water to bridge between modules.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Ok, did some touch up work, corner clearance and easements. Reworked a few things. Still needs some work, but getting closer. Hard work doing easements in SCARM, almost easier to do them in construction!

Right click > Open image in new tab. It zooms!










Legend:

The green shaded areas represent a higher elevation, the escarpment, all track is level.
Blue track are control points. Not detected. Train Controller can handle them as is.
Green is the Arrivals and Departures track, yard lead, and it also serves as a passing siding. It's working hard!
Red is the Main.
Yellow and Orange are Staging, and Spotting positions.
Pink are Reversing Sections


Changes mode:

Eased all corners.
Increased track spacing on corners from 1.08" (Fast Tracks crossover spacing) to 1.25" for clearance.
Reversed the facing of the grain terminal, now trailing point.
Removed double track storage spur for grain terminal. New single track has nearly same capacity. More importantly you can cut the rear half the train in it, then spot the front into the terminal in four moves instead of six.
Reworked the staging ladders, with double reverse loops staging can operate as a loop to sort trains if necessary, cuts down turnouts significantly. Crossovers in staging are unnecessary with this design.
Reduced staging tracks to three to allow for clearance for supports for upper level along back.
Moved the oil refinery, better location for scenery, more room for spurs. Previous location became tight when spacing tracks on corners.
Added the complementary crossover between Green and Red, this was necessary to keep the main running while switching the Refinery.
Total switch count reduced from 30 to 24.
Maximum train length set at 85".

Things to add:

RIP track. Probably where the refinery was previously located.








Engine storage spur. Due to the nature of how a grain terminal operates it needs a dedicated switcher (or two), it should have a home. Guess I'll need some more locos....










That big blue mess of switches, while prototypical (ok it's a little compressed) is going to be the "Pièce de résistance" on the layout. I blame John Armstong and his book. And yes, the tortoise machines actually fit (I checked).


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Ok, so I didn't really care for the full sized grain terminal. It's too big to model in the space without it feeling for lack of a better term "wrong". It also blocks a lot of view since it's at the front of the module. At a later date one could easily construct an extension or larger replacement module to model the full sized terminal. Might be a good narrow peninsula to capture the rails extending down the dock.

I've instead selected a different (read much smaller) grain terminal found on the route. This one specializes in loading grains into containers! No ocean connection required. Plus they have a website with a good collection of photos.

Columbia Containers










I've also been playing around with the crossovers, I moved one into the corner to space things out a bit and shifted one past a spur turnout to better handle traffic when the green A/D track is needed for switching. I've removed a storage track from the grain terminal in favor of scenery space and longer spurs, I have lots of lead length to enable full use of the spurs.

Starting to plan scenery in detail, not something I really did on my current layout where I just kind of assigned areas.










Operationally all trains destined for the spurs on the railroad originate from the East (bottom). More terminals exist on the West (right side) creating through trains. This is a bit confusing but think of it as looking south at the escarpment. I promise I will build it facing south in real life!

The grain terminal is now just a pair of trailing spurs, a complete train will need to be broken in two to clear the A/D track, once broken it can be pushed through the unloading dock without fouling the A/D track. The real shunting is done by a Trackmobile, but I think I'll need to use a SW1200. Kato actually makes a NW2 which could probably pass as one with some minor modifications.
SW1200? Google Earth isn't really clear.








The intermodal terminal is double ended to enable a train to be broken in two immediately upon arrival. I didn't want to foul the single track at the end of the module while spotting, nor have the head end of the train out of sight so a double ended siding is ideal. Once broken and spotted the cars don't need to be moved for access.
The refinery spurs are still a work in progress, as is they require access from the main, and are then facing point. Not sure if I like this, more work is required. I mean they can't all be easy but they shouldn't look needlessly difficult.

I managed to find some Kato container handlers, forklifts, and yard trucks/trailers still available in Japan! Additionally I grabbed two Walthers Mi-Jacks so we should be able to have a fully functional intermodal terminal. Still cannot get any Kato highway trucks, though with the correct trailers for the containers I should be able to make something work.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Ok, so talking with the CFO and the track crew has been notified that there will be a required change in venue sometime in the near future. Apparently we will need additional bedrooms.

I've been thinking about it and I think the safest thing to do is build an island layout rather than a shelf layout, especially given the size I want. Something that can still be broken down to fit in a pickup truck or covered trailer, and can be tilted up and hung on a garage wall. The 12' side of the layout is the real problem as most standard garages can be as little as 12' wide and who knows where the doors will be. The 16' side might not fit either if it has a side door.

So I'm leaning towards a 16' x 4' island made from two 4'x8' or 4'x4' sections. Four track staging and reverse loop down the middle. Benchwork would be stackable or knockdown sawhorse style.

The good news is I think I can still manage most of my givens and my druthers.

Semi modular/sectional
Moveable to a new home. *Check*
Reconfigurable to maximize available room at new location, be it bigger or smaller. *No, but as an island will potentially fit more places, and will be able to be repacked readily.*
Built in stand alone operable sections. Electronics contained within individual sections. Main and accessory bus/LocoNet hookups only. *Check*
Removeable sections as to enable work at a workbench. *No, but could could be tilted up where they stand, reach limited to 24" in lieu.*
Small enough sections to handle alone. 4' x 4' maximum size, standard section 4' x 2'. *Maybe**, might go with two 8' x 4' instead of four 4' x 4' but still manageable with 2 people.*
Sections are interchangeable, but only the staging. Visible track would be reworked if section order is reconfigured. *Check*

Staging
More. *Check*
Longer. *Check*
Reversing capable. Either reverted loop or balloon track. *Check*
Operate in loop to loop, or continuous run. *Check*
Able to radically remodel visible portion without disrupting staging. *Check*
Accessible. *Check*
Automated. *Check*

Track
Hand laid. Building in stand alone sections will make this rewarding rather than a chore. *Check*
Custom switches. *Check*
No more plastic ties. *Check*
No track grades. *Possible, but might utilize grades to better hide staging without losing accessibility.*
Able to be left in non-climate controlled space. I have a shop that I heat to just above freezing during the winter but that's all. *Check*



So there are some other benefits...

New staging arrangement can select any train and not resort to queueing trains.
Single shared reverse loop. Simpler.
Increased potential mainline run to 32' from 24'
Increased minimum radius from 13" to 14" in staging.
Possible base height scenery depth increased from 18" to 20"
increased from 60 to 64 sqft layout size.

And some costs...

Increased required space due to aisles from 96 to 144 sqft.
Now I just need the visible portion of the track plan...


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I think a standard 2 car garage is 20 wide by 22 deep with a 16 ft wide vehicle door. But that’s a different country. 
Are basements common up there in BC?


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Semi-basements (half buried) are fairly common due to the fact you need to be down 4ft on the foundations for frost. My current basement is about 3/4 finished. Only the laundry, store, and utility room are unfinished. My current layout resides on two walls of the st

In the current house I have an open single carport and a 30’ x 16’ shop in the backyard. The shop is largely empty if I were to actually clean it up.

Any future home would have either a shop, or at a minimum single garage as a requirement. It’s no fun packing kids into a car at -20C.

Its unlikely that a layout would be permitted in any living space, and I wouldn’t want that anyhow with small children. Best it could be locked away or hung/shelved for storage when not in active use.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Been a while since I posted, I've gone through at least 6 major variations, each with its own tweaks. Several would have been candidates for construction, but they just didn't quite have it. I've also reduced the scope somewhat. I'm about 8 Kalmbach books deep and have reread my 3 years worth of Model Railroader subscriptions. Some of those books are very good at helping you find direction.

So anyhow, I've arrived at the following...maybe a bit more railfan, less operations, but I think I'm Ok with that. So long as it looks and runs prototypically it can be simple.

12'x4' built in two 6'x4' sections, or maybe just one big one. Turns out the floor of a15' U-haul truck is 12'-6". It's about as large as you would want to go in a single piece.











Heavily inspired by John Leader's (aka NscaleAddict ) Marias Pass. Though I thought there was a missed opportunity for staging and a reverse loop, something that would greatly improve operations and would be insanely satisfyingly to signal and automate with all the meets required.

John's layout is pictured below.










Top half of the layout is rural scenery, no industries, just rough terrain. Probably going to do something like the Fraser canyon for feel. I can hide the entrances to the center staging with a tunnel on the single track on the right and a double track snow/rock shed on the left. It's not very common to see double track tunnels in the CN/CP prototype. So I hope the snow shed will look more the part. I think the only one I know _was_ the Connaught Tunnel through the Rodgers Pass and it was changed to single track in 1958 to accommodate autoracks and later intermodals.

Bottom half I'm unsure of the exact track plan still. It could be an industry, maybe a town with a siding and team track.

The tricky bit will be constructing the 20 degree scissors double crossover. In theory it should work, all the switches its made from are very gentle. It's essentially a crossover with the crossing route straight and the straight through legs bent. It actually removes any S-bend. On the plus side the layout requires no grades, and the outer loop of track can be completed and run before the staging. I'm considering a double crossover on the blue section of double main on the left, it would break the passing siding into two that still fit an entire train. Again more custom work with curved turnouts. Do double crossovers on curves meet on the outer curve or the inner?

I could potentially get one more loop of staging in, depends how steep I make the rock face hiding it.

With 20 and 21.25" curves I'm going to have to get me some passenger cars....


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Looks good for rail fan type ops. Though I think a pair of turnouts at one end would be worthwhile, just in case some day you decide to add on to it.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Good point, I think a wye junction in the bottom left would look the most natural. For simplicity I might just add the subroadbed and omit the turnouts. I can always splice them in later.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

I've been playing with the design for a while now. I can really see the advantages of the offset lobes in terms of alignment. It also lets you focus more space on the route and less on wasted space (eg. excessively sized bodies of water). I've also decided not to make the layout expandable.

I ended up buying several back issues of N Scale Railroading as John Leader did a very extensive series on the construction of his Maria's Pass in 2011/2012.










The length has been stretched to 12'-6" built in two 6'-3" sections which comfortably fit through standard doors on end. Additionally I've increased the width of the lobes to 54", though the track fits within a 48" diameter circle keeping it on a single sheet of plywood for each section. This lets me fit a minimum 4" of scenery between the track and edge of layout; something that will be both appreciated for aesthetics as well as safety. The additional width also allows for a 3rd staging track and a comfortable amount of room to slope up and over them. The combination of these two dimensions basically insures I can move it anywhere.

The central mountains will be removable to access the hidden track and backdrop will be integral to the mountains. This also considerably reduces height for moving through doorways.

Minimum radius is 13.75" on the inner staging track, with 15" on the middle and 16.25" on the outer. I'm hoping it can handle passenger cars. I see a lot of videos of passenger cars working on smaller Kato radii. All of the cars/engines I currently own operate well on 12.5" radius so 13.75" should be insurance. The minimum mainline radius is a whopping 20.75" so worst case scenario if I do end up getting passenger cars and they don't work on the staging radii they can at least park on the station siding. For reference the outer mainline on the photo of Maria's Pass in the previous posting is 19" and the passenger cars look acceptable to me.

As for operations, the layout could be used for some simple helper power additions though that is probably the limit.


Every time I go through this exercise I think I get a little better.


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