# Rank Noob looking for Bench advice...



## Stradawhovious (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm going to apologize in advance, since I'm sure this question is asked every 5 minutes on this board...... but how much space is enough space?

Here is a little primer for my situation. My Father had a very large HO scale layout when i was a Kid. I don't remember exactly how big, but through the eyes of a 10 year old it must have been a thousand square feet. (in reality it was substantially smaller.... 100 ft sq or less....)

Fast forward to now.... I have a 9 year old now who has shown an interest in trains, and has rekindled the interest of my inner 10 year old. His (other) Grandfather gave him many boxes of HO train stuff, but I won't be incorporating any of that into my setup... I want to make sure that when it is time for him to take his train stuff he doesn't need to dismantle my layout to get it. :laugh:

I have a "wife approved" space in the basement set aside for this layout. Not the ideal space, but with two adults and two kids in a tiny little house we really have to make due with what we have. I have included a not-really-to-scale blueprint of the space, and (in blue) my minds eye of what will be covered by the bench. If I did my math correctly, this should give me just under 50 sq ft to work with. 

My question.... Is this enough space? Not just for starting, but for growing into. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, so I will be planning this thing out pretty well before I even begin to lay track, and don't want to hav an "oh-poop" moment past the point of no return.

My second question.... what kind of resources can i look at for track design? I need to know basics like minumum turn radius etc. as to not crowd things.

Thanks for your time, I promise not to be a rank beginner for long.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well mine is 4x12x8x4 basically two 4x8's put together my 10 yr old has been a train nut since he was 4 but it was time to get him into the big boy stuff..

Trust me no matter how well you plan it out there will be an uh oh! Moment lol trust me I had a close call today but a dremel and a file will always be your best friend

I think yours will be plenty to grow in


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Strad,

Check out NMRA for a good beginner guide (including benchwork tips), and for a fabulous list of dimensional Standards for all scales ...

http://www.nmra.org/beginner/

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html

For track design itself, check out Thor for some canned starting ideas ...

http://www.thortrains.net/

And then track design / layout software. I'll recommend two here:

AnyRail ... loved by all ... www.anyrail.com

SCARM ... freeware; developer is a member here ... www.scarm.info

Cheers,

TJ


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Two things are problems with your inital design.
One reaching cross 3'6" is near to impossible.
Two you can not make good turn in HO in 3'6" of space.
Try this Idea on for size?


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## Stradawhovious (Feb 28, 2012)

NIMT said:


> Two things are problems with your inital design.
> One reaching cross 3'6" is near to impossible.
> Two you can not make good turn in HO in 3'6" of space.
> Try this Idea on for size? [pic of great idea]



Wow! Thanks for going out of your way to diagram that one! I guess I didn't give much thought to reaching over three foot of bench. Won't be the first..... or the last time I didn't think something through.

Thanks folks, for the links and ideas! I can't wait to get started.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Also, it takes at least a 4' square to do a loop of track in HO, and that's at absolute minimum radius (18"). There's definately not enough space in that room to have a turnback loop at each end.
A bit more of an "around-the-room" design like NIMT's footprint will let you do an actual continuous run.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> For track design itself, check out Thor for some canned starting ideas ...
> 
> http://www.thortrains.net/


No, don't do that. ThorTrains has the uniformly worst track designs I've ever seen. He has absolutely no idea what he's doing.

Many of the "switching layouts" there consist of a whole bunch of spurs going in all directions and not a single runaround track.


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## Stradawhovious (Feb 28, 2012)

cv_acr said:


> A bit more of an "around-the-room" design like NIMT's footprint will let you do an actual continuous run.


Which will be important, the kiddo will have a more involved interest with a continuous run than he would otherwise.

Forgive my ignorance, but in NIMT's design, would you actually be able to make a "liftable" bridge, or would that effectively become a duckunder when the track is laid? The limited knowledge of my mind's eye has connectors on all the track ends.


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2012)

You will need 1300 square meters...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACkmg3Y64_s


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Stradawhovious said:


> Which will be important, the kiddo will have a more involved interest with a continuous run than he would otherwise.
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but in NIMT's design, would you actually be able to make a "liftable" bridge, or would that effectively become a duckunder when the track is laid? The limited knowledge of my mind's eye has connectors on all the track ends.


You can make it permanent (duck-under), lift-out, swing up, or swing out. Just take special care that the rails on the lift-out/swing-up bridge will align properly when the bridge is down.

Also, having a switch that will cut off electrical power to the rails approaching the bridge when it is open helps protect engines from running over the cliff.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Simple wiring diagram. I would make the switch something like a microswitch that the bridge pushes down when it's in place, rather than a manual toggle.
As soon as you remove the pressure from the switch (i.e. lift the bridge), the switch opens and cuts off all power to the tracks.


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## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

A run-around loop or reverse loop does take up space and a point to point layout isn't the kinda fun layout to run trains in circles if ya wanna show it off. I would make the bridge a lift-up. Duck-Unders are no fun! I know this for a fact! Anyways, I think NIMT's rendering will do the trick! I would make sure a 22" radius or bigger radius has the room to be laid out without any kinks or pinch points. Finally my input is use code 100 track, 2x4's for frame work and legs unless making a portable layout. Then for the table top, I like to use 3/8th"s plywood with little to no knots in it along with the boards for framing.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I like NIMT's use of the space. I use 1x4 and 1x3 lumber for the benchwork (plenty strong when framed up like you would an interior wall @ 16" on center spacing of the braces) 2x2 legs with 1x2 angled braces. If you can, go legless and just cantilever the benchwork off of the wall with angled braces going back to the wall.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

2x4 framing is way overkill for model railroad benchwork.

3/8"-1/2" ply can be good for the surface. Should be at least good-on-one-side sheets. For larger areas with track laid directly on the plywood, 3/4" plywood is nice and sturdy and won't warp (but depending on the actual application, could potentially be overkill). Don't cheap out on thickness/quality too much if you plan to lay track directly on the plywood surface. A warped table top will simply lead to unreliabilty and frustration down the line.

At my club, our larger yard areas are all laid on 3/4" plywood. Helixes are quality 1/2" plywood, and most of the shelf portions of the layout have 3/8" sheathing for a base, but track is never laid directly on that. Rather it is simply a base and track is actually laid on spline on risers. Because of that we can get away with a little less quality and precision on the plywood in that situation.

Code 100 rail is actually a little overscale, but track with this size rail is readily available and easy to work with, especially if you're still relatively new to model trains, or if the layout is primarily for the kids to have fun (as it sounds like in this case).


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> For track design itself, check out Thor for some canned starting ideas ...
> 
> http://www.thortrains.net/





cv_acr said:


> No, don't do that. ThorTrains has the uniformly worst track designs I've ever seen. He has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
> 
> Many of the "switching layouts" there consist of a whole bunch of spurs going in all directions and not a single runaround track.


Note that I said, "... for some canned _starting ideas _..."

I don't think any _newbie_ (emphasis added here) would be ill-served to poke around Thor to wet their feet a bit. Yes, the layouts there are not necessarily operationally protypical, but a little soft-core window shoping might get the inspiration juices flowing.

TJ


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

I stand by my comment, ESPECIALLY for a newbie who not knowing better might naturally assume that the ThorTrains plans are actually reasonable plans.


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

and plus I see the thor designs as a way to bring enjoyment to the layout  as in if I want to try my hand as switching they got designs with plunty of that to boot


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

New Berlin RR said:


> and plus I see the thor designs as a way to bring enjoyment to the layout  as in if I want to try my hand as switching they got designs with plunty of that to boot


This kind of proves my point. Most of the thortrains layouts are absolutely USELESS for ANY kind of switching. Some of the continuous run layouts on the 4x8' plans offer a fair bit of action by having 2 or 3 concentric ovals, and some of them have some sidings that can be used for runarounds.

Any switching layout AT MINIMUM has to have some sort of runaround so you can switch spurs that run off in opposite directions.

Pretty much NONE of the "point-to-point" or the shelf layouts on that site (looking at the ones under the "HO Layouts" section) have ANY sort of runaround, just a big mess of random spurs. Something to be very aware of before you actually go and try to build something from that site.

Want to add switching to your layout? It's simple. First make sure you have a runaround track. Then start adding spurs at random; that's basically the thortrains approach (except that thortrains ignore the runaround).


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

well yea i do see your point on the random bit...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You know, CV ACR, why don't you tell us how you really feel? There's a whole range of "how to have fun" in this hobby ... some people (especially with kids in tow) are quite happy with some simple loops and a few switches to spurs, turnouts, and the like. In that, I think Thor offers some joyful stuff. There's no rule that one must adhere to protypical protocols. Rather, Rule #1 applies ... each person is the king of their layout, and whatever makes them happy goes.

So, to your comments above, I say ... :thumbsdown:

TJ


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2012)

Realism and toys are not good bedfellows...and, what's a Thor?

My train looks pretty cool with the lights out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCvUGyfTgDU&feature=related


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

I am in big trouble. As far as realism goes, I have no way to fuel my locos. I do not have a way to load or unload the cars. what was I thinking!


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## Stradawhovious (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow..... Didn't mean to start a flame war here. :laugh:

Here's me being really honest.

I want to do to things with this hobby..... make stuff, and have fun with the kids. Anything else is just a bonus. I don't really know anything about trains, or what is realistic, and what is not.... Not worried about DCC or any of the fancy pants stuff like that... If I can make something where the train goes round and around, and get to play with power and hand tools to make bridges and mountains and stuff, I'm a happy camper. 

Thanks for all the info though! It has been inspiring reading through the posts in this thread and many others. I hope to get started on the bench this weekend.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Strad,

Sorry for the sidebar dialog above, but I wanted to put the emphasis on "having fun", rather than a commitment to steadfast RR realisim.

Your comment directly above (kids, simple DC, trains go round, etc.) is encouraging to hear, and you'll find lots of good company here who will be happy to help you along the way.

Per my Post #3, above, check out the goodies NMRA has to offer, along with the free starter version of AnyRail ... plenty of info to help get your feet wet.

Good luck, and enjoy the fun ride with the kids in tow!

TJ


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## Stradawhovious (Feb 28, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Strad,
> 
> Sorry for the sidebar dialog above,


What would the intrawebz be without the derailing of threads, flame wars and anonymous goat poking? :laugh:

Coming from a gun nut forum and a photography forum, I'm used to the sidebar commends, and on those forums, they get far nastier than you folks seem to... so I think I will learn quite a bit here.

And now with that.... I'm off to the beginner forums (where I suspect I should have posted this to begin with) to learn all I can.

Thanks folks, and keep the comments coming!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

By all means keep this post alive.. I really like your idea.. My thought was take 6 inches to your outer section which would give you the 4ft and a few inches so you would be able to make the needed radius.

I also thought about what is your favorite style of engines and that could determine some of your planning and curves and design since some trains and cars will even fight 18 degree curves trust me I had to make a dedicated car for my sd40.. Some hate truck mounted couplers but they were designed for short turn radius.
When you are done building the foundation just get a box of tacs from office max and lay your track and do many dry runs both reverse and foward and at all speeds ect ect. I spent two weeks of test and staring and still ripped a bunch of track out.

Enough me already lol. Carry on


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Stradawhovious said:


> If I can make something where the train goes round and around, and get to play with power and hand tools to make bridges and mountains and stuff, I'm a happy camper.


 
That is the way I am. It is also the only thing that my layout does, have fun.

My wife says "are you going to play trains". No i going to work on my railroad empire!


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## Stradawhovious (Feb 28, 2012)

Grabbem88 said:


> By all means keep this post alive.. I really like your idea.. My thought was take 6 inches to your outer section which would give you the 4ft and a few inches so you would be able to make the needed radius.
> 
> I also thought about what is your favorite style of engines and that could determine some of your planning and curves and design since some trains and cars will even fight 18 degree curves trust me I had to make a dedicated car for my sd40.. Some hate truck mounted couplers but they were designed for short turn radius.
> When you are done building the foundation just get a box of tacs from office max and lay your track and do many dry runs both reverse and foward and at all speeds ect ect. I spent two weeks of test and staring and still ripped a bunch of track out.
> ...


Yeah, I plan on tkaing my time with this. I will be building the bench this weekend (hopefully) and Starting with a simple oval around the perimiter of the bench. Once i have that mastered, The kiddo and I will decide what to add from there. I expect this to be an ongoing project that will (hopefully) take years to complete. :thumbsup:


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

as long as i have room I will never finish.


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