# lionel legacy and mth dcs system.



## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

I was wondering about the digital systems out there and what the others have said about the lionel legacy compared to the mth dcs system. Does one work better the the other, ease of use, and is one being used more by others in the hobby. Just curious, but would like to get feedback on what others think of both systems. mark d.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have both systems, and each of them have their positive and negative attributes. I think you should look at the product offerings by each manufacturer and decide if MTH or Lionel has more locomotives that you'd like to run, that will dictate your choice of control system. In my case, I liked products from both, so I have both systems.

FWIW, both systems will coexist peacefully on the same layout at the same time. You can run DCS and Legacy/TMCC stuff on the same tracks at the same time with no interference.


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

John, what about the set up for lionel legacy compare to dcs? From the video, there seems to be a one wire set up with legacy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Legacy is a bit easier to live with. A little story.

There is a train club at a retirement community where we have friends. She's the secretary of the train club, and they wanted to talk about command, right now they're strictly conventional. Many of the members were dead set against it as being too complicated.

I went out with my Legacy system and a few Legacy and TMCC locomotives. Put a couple of locomotives on the track, connected the one wire for the Legacy base and plugged it in. Cranked up the transformer throttles and said: "All installed, let's run some trains!" They were amazed when I was able to immediately start controlling multiple trains on the same track, and I passed the spare remote around for them to try. 

Bottom line? They're saving club funds for a Legacy system.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, I'll be setting mine up soon, legacy, have to build the track first. Grj, what do the bottom line engines cost for both systems, just curious?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Since I rarely buy new stuff, I can't say. However, in general, I think the MTH PS/2 locomotives are a bit cheaper than the Legacy models. If I had to choose one system to go with, it would have to be Legacy, better sound and better low speed performance. However, I didn't have to choose, so I have both and lots of each type.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Most certainly the MTH system is not as gunrunnerjohn's story indicates of the Lionel Legacy system. I have the MTH system and have tons of wiring under my 7 x 9 foot layout. The MTH system allows easy additions of both locomotives and accessories via the remote. The locomotives carry their ID and the remote just adds that info to the system. There are not numbers to assign or anything like that. It allows other control systems on the same tracks at the same time including conventional. You can have up to 99 trains in the system memory.

If the legacy does a better job at slow speed control I'm surprised because the MTH DCS system will run trains at 3 scale MPH without jerkiness at all. Some will even run at 2 scale MPH.

I like the remote control of operating accessories afforded by the MTH DCS system. I'm currently adding operating accessories and the system can control ten the way mine is setup. The MTH DCS is expandable to an extent that it will handle a building sized layout if you use enough units daisy chained together.

I can not contrast the Lionel system because I know nothing about it.

But a hint for new Toy Train enthusiasts: MTH Realtrax is problematical. The word is FasTrack is a better solution. I made the mistake of going with MTH RealTrax even though I was warned (by gunrunnerjohn) and have suffered with it. 

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lynn, I can run my Legacy Genset at about 1/4" a second as smooth as butter with or without a load of cars. Lionel's motor speed encoder has finer resolution and results in great low speed performance for my Legacy stuff. I agree, most of the MTH stuff will smooth out at around 3-4 scale MPH, and MTH actually states "down to 5 scale MPH" as their specification.

Nothing wrong with the MTH stuff, it's just that Lionel has the edge in that area IMO.

As far as expansion, Lionel has a vast array of operating accessories that are directly TMCC compatible and of course they also have devices similar to the MTH AIU for connecting conventional accessories. Lionel has command controlled switches, for instance. You can install switches and run them directly from the remote, and you don't have to run any wires at all, just put the switches in the layout and program them into the remote.

Either maker's product line offers a rich assortment of locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. IMO, you won't go wrong with either one, just stay away from MTH RealTrax!


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

So the legacy system sets up faster and allows you to run trains with fewer steps than dcs?


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## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

I like the Legacy system because you can buy the ERR boards
to make all my old postwar steam engines into TMCC units
which can be controlled by Legacy.
Now if I could only afford it!


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn:

Wow, 1/4 inch a second. I have no need for anything to run that slow and I was very impressed with MTH DCS at 3 MPH although I don't tend to run that slow. I do see better slow performance from DCS with a light load when running at 3 MPH and slightly jerky running at 2 MPH.

I am less than a year into Toy Trains. I thought Lionel was on the ropes and had been for decades but apparently I was wrong. I saw MTH as a newcomer with new ideas not realizing that Lionel had digital control systems and locomotives and operating features in the same league. You have ben instrumental in educating me in this area and I appreciate it. Too bad I did not listen to you about the MTH Realtrax. I still suffer occasional mysterious bumps in the train travel around the layout from the switches and poor rail alignment but time, a file, and usage has smoothed most of that out.

So my suggestion to others is to investigate both MTH and Lionel when selecting your next train/accessory control system. I might have gone a different way if I had known what I know today. 

Lynn.


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## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm not interested in running my train at 1/4 inch per second either.
However, I *am* interested in very smooth starts.
I hate seeing trains jump into motion, even toy trains.
So 1/4 inch per second, even if only for the first second, seems quite marvelous.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Like I said, both companies have some very nice command stuff, and I suspect you won't be unhappy with either choice. I think you can get into the MTH stuff for a bit less money, though when you jump into command, you are looking at spending some bucks.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Legacy is Lionel's top of the line control system but it will also operate older generation Lionel TMCC locomotives. 1990s vintage TMCC engines can be had on eBay for very reasonable prices when compared to more recent Legacy products. For example a 1996 TMCC diesel can be had for well under $200 where the similar Legacy model runs closer to $500! Legacy does have more control and features , but in most cases it's not worth the extra $300.

The same vintage MTH equipped with proto-sounds can also be had at reasonable prices although they can only be controlled with conventional transformer control.

My recommendation to newbies to the hobby who would like to install a control system is to go with Legacy but start with TMCC engines until the price of Legacy models comes down.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you look around, you can pick up some Legacy models on eBay for reasonable prices as well. I have a pair of Conrail SD-80 Legacy locomotives that I got for $200/ea on eBay, they have the full complement of Legacy features. The trick is to be patient...


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

Lionel just came out with a remote control command set #6-37147 cab-1L. Would this be a good way to start out with Lionel digital than to spend more money on the Legacy system?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Personally, I'd hold out for Legacy. For the additional $100-150, you get the full functionality. Eventually, you'll want all the capability of the Legacy system, then you'll end up spending even more money.


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

John, how would you wire legacy if I'm using a terminal block for my track wires? It looks different from the dcs wiring.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Legacy requires just a single wire connection to the outside rail (U) lead. You can connect it to the outside rail terminal on your terminal block or tie it to the transformer.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There are no special wiring considerations for Legacy, the wavelength is so long that the stuff about DCS doesn't apply. Also, TMCC/Legacy is a different propagation system, it's actually an RF broadcast with the earth ground side being received by the antenna, and the outer track connection being the other half of the signal.

My advice would be to wire like you're installing DCS, then if you decided to add it, you won't have any issues.


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

Lynn, has mth dcs been easy to use for your layout? And if you had to do it again, would you have gone with legacy or just with fastrack?


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

It is hard to compare the two control system when I have never even seen a Legacy unit. There is nothing wrong with the full MTH DCS system. It works exactly as advertised and I would use it again. I don't even feel a need to investigate the Lionel Legacy unit.

Where there is a problem is the power bricks offered by MTH. I use two of them, one for trains and the other for accessories, both 100 watt units. The built in circuit breakers don't protect the system from over current even though they are rated at 7 amps. I was popping the 20 amp fuses inside the TIU with derailments and shorts and the power brick circuit breaker never even quivered. That is bad for the circuitry in the TIU and a pain-in-the butt since you have to disassemble the TIU to replace fuses. This happened a half dozen times before I took real action.

First I added a fast action 7.5A circuit breaker. Then I wired the system in the passive mode where the power source for the track does not go through the TIU but attaches to the TIU output. The system works as normal except for the emergency stop red button on the remote which does not work to save a bad situation. I bought a remote lamp controller at the local Home Depot and I use its remote to shut all power off to the track at the 120VAC power input point to the track power brick. It is handy to control the track power too and I use it every time I run the trains.

The MTH RealTrax was a big mistake not rectifiable because of the huge investment I have in it (over 100 pieces of track and switches). The track rails don't always align properly with the next section requiring filing to avoid disturbing the train as it passes over the junction. The switches were not assembled right and the anti-derailment feature was shorted to the adjacent section locking the switch in one position. The points cause a bump to the train as the guid rail adjacent to the opposite outside rail allows the train wheels to slide over and hit the plastic frog. The leading edge of the points is too high and derails slow moving engines. The points spring that holds the points against the rail is insufficient too. I fixed all this well enough that the trains run but none of this should happen on such expensive track. The FasTrack has a much better reputation (I have no real experience with it so???) and uses guide pins to assure perfect rail alignments. The switches are supposedly better made (???). The general opinion is FasTrack is better than RealTrax but not having ever used FasTrack I cannot recommend it. I can only recommend to NOT use RealTrax.

Hope this helps.

LDBennett


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

So, how do you know if you are putting too much power through the tiu? Is that a flaw in the system? I went to a hobby shop by my home and he was running the mth dcs system with the cover off because of blown fuses. Is it the power brick or the amps drawn from the trains? Maybe mth should have instructed users to go passive mode right from the start.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

mark d:

The limit per channel is about 10 to 12 amps. The 20 amp fuses should never blow! That much current through the TIU may hurt it. That much current comes with a short on the track (like a derailment). Recently curiosity has me wondering how much AC current is flowing through the tracks. I run up to two trains at a time with no ill effects. I might investigate adding a amp meter to both the track and accessory power sources. But that's a project for another day. 

You should buy a very fast separate circuit breaker or use the Lionel 180 watt power brick as its circuit breaker, I am told, is a fast acting one. Wiring the TIU in the passive mode routes the current around the TIU so there is no risk of hurting the TIU. The MTH 100 Watt power brick with its slow acting circuit breaker is probably OK if the current is not routed through the TIU (passive mode). See the MTH DCS Companion book for a further explanation of the passive mode.

For the fast circuit breaker I found an Airpax circuit breaker with an under 1 second time delay. They are not easy to find and mine was actually surplus. But if you use the passive mode wiring the separate circuit breaker is probably not necessary.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can short the outputs of the 1033 90 watt transformer and get over 20 amps before the breaker goes. My little clamp-on only goes to 20A, and it goes over-range with the short, and I had plenty of time to measure before the breaker finally went. I have tested the breaker on the 1033, and it will eventually trip at a continuous load of about 7 amps, so it's actually functional.

You need good circuit protection, it's as simple as that. That's why I love the Lionel PowerHouse 180 breakers, they are electronic and trip in milliseconds.


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

So, can I run two to three trains with fix 1 imput without blowing a fuse?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've run two regularly on my TIU, and I"ve never blown the fuse, even if one's a passenger train. I've had plenty of derailments as well, but the PH180 breaker always goes very quickly, no time for the fuse to blow.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

John:

The last time I checked Lionel did not have a date for reintroduction of the 180 power brick and were totally out of stock everywhere. They are on EBAY but…. not new.

I wish I could recommend a good fast CB but few dealers of Airpax stock the fast acting version. There may be other suppliers and manufacturers but I searched them out and only found the one salvage dealer that had used Airpax CB's but they are gone now. You've been here for a very long time. Is there a separate one that you are aware of that we can recommend. Also why don't you try to work through your MTH contacts to get them to put a real CB in the 100 watt power brick which is about the only transformer of that style MTH makes. I recently sent them a hate letter with a list of complaints (MANY!). They responded with answers which I just today resounded to. I included the CB problem in the power brick. maybe something will happen????

Lynn…………...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have purchased all my PH180 bricks used, they look and work like new, and I'm perfectly happy with them.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

mark d:

Almost any derailment will blow the TIU 20 amp fuse! It is not fun to have to pull the TIU out of the circuit and take it apart to change one fuse. Passive mode is the answer if you can't get a circuit breaker that's fast enough.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A 15 amp fuse in-line will solve the issue of taking the TIU apart all the time.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Just be sure it is a fast blow fuse.

LDBennett


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

I was able to buy a lionel powerhouse 180 from my hobby shop a few weeks ago. So, that's all I need for the mth dcs system to prevent blowing fuses. Right?


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

According to gunrunner john that's it. The circuit breaker is fast enough and no fuses or external circuit breakers are required. Again, that is not the case with the MTH 100 watt power brick.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Mine has been in service for some time now with two bricks, no TIU fuses have been sacrificed. Also, our modular layout runs on six of the bricks, and it's TIU also has all it's fuses intact.


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'm glad you're here to help guys like me just starting out with this great hobby. Mark d.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

We need fresh blood.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

John:

I partially reviewed a set of Lionel videos on the Lionel Legacy system. I came away with the opinion that the sound is much better than the MTH DCS. I also noted that using the "CAB" controller is a little more complicated than the MTH remote.

It appears it is basically an RF control between the controller module and the engine rather than an impressed control signal hard wired on the track AC power. I wonder if signal reliability is different between the systems. Two of my engines rate signal strength around my 7 x 9 ft layout at 100 all the way around. The book says anything about about 4 or 5 is fine. Can the RF connection of the Legacy match that? Just wondering. I am not about to change at this point in time or anytime in the future for that matter.

If I were to start again (not possible) I think it would be worth looking at the Lionel Legacy system. As I have said before, when I started into this I though Lionel was dead and only MTH offered a viable O gauge system of trains and accessories. I was remiss in not checking them out more thoroughly back then. Oh well, I got what I got and it will have to do!

Lynn…..


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lynn, your ahead of me, my legacy setup is still in the box! It's not about how much more one system can do then the other but.... Are you having fun! It's all fun even the annoying stuff, sometimes. I still like my conventional layout, I'm sure I'll like the legacy too. If I ever get it hookedup! I would be happy with the Mth setup too. My point, well there really is none, have fun!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually Lynn, Legacy communicates from the remote to the base on 2.4ghz, and the track signal is 455 khz. DCS communicates from the remote to the TIU at 900mhz, and the track singal is 3.27mhz.

It's a lot easier to get anything but a really huge layout running with no signal issues with Legacy than it is with DCS. It's really a whole different signal propagation scheme between the two.

My take on Legacy locomotives is the sound is the best in the industry, and the low speed performance of most of the Legacy stuff is tops as well. DCS has nice points as well, you get more control of some parameters, and you can download new sound files for a couple of nice points.

It's hard to pick between the systems, so I just picked both.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

John:

I did notice the slow running was better than my DCS system. I'm too impatient to run my trains that slow but the Legacy has it on the MTH DCS in that respect. The acceleration/deceleration can be smoother with the Legacy I would bet.

I think you are right in that both system are top notch and it's FORD vs CHEVY, kind-of.

Is the Legacy not an RF transmission using the track as an antenna with the engine each having their own receiving antenna? The DCS simply impresses the digital packets (hard wired) onto the track AC power source. When you say the DTS frequency is 3.27MHz, do you mean that is the refresh rate of putting the data packets on the track power or the data clocking rate for the packets? Are the packets there all the time or only when new commands are sent and quiet the rest of the time? MTH says the engine responds back such that it is a two way conversation (??). I'd really like to see a detailed electrical description of how DCS works (a systems spec, if you will). Is there any documentation available like this? The reason I worked as an engineer is I always want to know how everything works, just to know.

Lynn….


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The Legacy is an RF system, however the track signal is basically the "ground", and the over the air part of the signal is propagated using the earth ground to the internal antenna on the TMCC locomotive or accessory. The carrier frequency of the TMCC/Legacy signal is 455khz.

DCS has a carrier frequency of 3.27mhz, that's the transmission frequency. Think of the old CB radio, it uses 27mhz, but obviously the voice modulation is much slower. DCS is indeed a two-way conversation, where TMCC is one-way.

Take a look at these pages: 

How does DCS Work?

How does TMCC/Legacy Work?


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

Guys, all of you have been very helpful in educating me on the different systems. There is a lot for me to learn about this hobby. I'm going with the lionel fastrack, but I'm staying with the mth dcs system. After talking with many people about these systems, the general consensus is mth dcs is easier to learn on than the legacy. For me that was the deciding factor. I agree with lynn, I just want to enjoy running a train layout without much confusion. And lionel is too high price for their trains than mth. I'm sure lionel legacy is good, but I'll take my chances with mth dcs. I'll let you know how I like it. Mark d.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you'll like it just fine. Both systems work well, and eventually you can just expand and have both!


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## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

Oh my, thank you so much for those links, gunny.
I learned quite a lot about how the TMCC system operates.
Since all of my engines are postwar Lionel,
I will be adding ERR controllers to all of them,
and use the new smaller Legacy Cab-1L controller,
whenever it becomes available, hopefully soon.

Steve.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The CAB-1L/BASE-1L is in stores now, I was tinkering with one at Henning's Trains the other day.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Speaking of DCS, and TMCC, does anyone have this book: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/cttpdf008.html

I have the DCS O gauge Companion already, and was wondering if this other book was worth the $6.00...

I have discussed this before with GJR, and I have a feeling I will also be using both Legacy, and DCS. This is partly because I have one TMCC loco now, and I believe my dad has a few PS locos.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Truthfully, there are plenty of on-line resources for free. You have Barry's book, which certainly has everything in it, just sometimes hard to find. You also have the DCS User's manual. Are you really going to troll through half a dozen books to find one fact? Probably not.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

No, I hadn't planned on that. I was looking for a book similar in scope to the DCS companion on the Legacy stuff. I haven't bought any control systems yet. I am thinking I will probably buy DCS to start, as it seems cheaper to get into to start, and then I'll get the Legacy afterwards. At least I don't "have" to buy any transformers yet, but I will have to build in some circuit protection...


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn:

So I went through the links and it is still confusing about how DCS works. The o-scope pictures are not clear enough. What kind of modulation is the carrier using? I don't see a continuous carrier in the pictures??? Is it just keying on the carrier bit by bit with amplitude modulation for a 1 and a different level amplitude modulation for a zero? 

Lynn…..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There isn't a continuous carrier for DCS. When a specific channel first comes up, there is a few seconds of watchdog signal to tell any DCS locomotives to enter command mode and remain silent. Then the signals are only transmitted on demand. Also, an engine only speaks when spoken to, there is no spontaneous transmissions from the locomotives.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

John:

What is the modulation? FM, AM, or frequency keying off and on ????? What represent a 1 and a 0 in the RF signal stream ?

I'm thinking of pulling out the o-scope and watching it (??). Curiosity killed the cat but it sometimes has me going.

Lynn….


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know off-hand what type of modulation that DCS uses, never needed the information, so I never went looking.  Warm up that 'scope. It'll probably want to be a digital model to capture something that you can analyze.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

John:

It is actually a computer scope that I use on a very old lap top running Windows XP. Its a probe and a module that plug into the USB port. But it works. When building my digital throttle for my trolley layout using two Arduino boards, it worked perfectly. I'll try to get to it next week. I can capture images and put them up if you care.

Lynn…..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sure, post the images. Always interested in what's behind the curtain, never know when the information might be handy. 

I'm currently working on a project to decode the TMCC serial data stream and control various aspects of locomotives like extra lighting, whistle smoke, different sounds, etc. Fun project, when I get something I'll post a thread in the forum.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

John:

Sorry no images. My dumb scope can not see it. It really needs to be detected first as it is a tiny RF signal in the noise. I guess I really need to see the DSC system spec to understand it. I'm not about to go into developing a RF stage to detect the digital data. I'm not that interested. Oh well.

Lynn…….


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you've arrived at where I was. I think it's an FSK signal, but I'm not really sure.


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