# Thoughts on Lionel quality issues



## Guest (Dec 15, 2018)

It seems to me, from my very unscientific observations, that almost all of Lionel's the quality problems are with high end BTO locomotives. The mid price and low price trains and sets seem to be pretty much problem free. I would guess there's the occasional clunker but overall the less expensive, non BTO trains seem to be well made.

If my observations are correct, I wondered why. It would seem that the expensive BTO items would get more quality control checks than the non BTO items. Apparently that's not true.

As I thought about it I wondered if the QC problems with BTO are because there are so few made. The train sets, traditional freight cars, traditional passenger cars, accessories and even the scale freight cars, etc, are made in fairly large quantities and are basically the same from year to year. There is a history of assembling thousands of these over the years so their production is smooth and reliable.

BTO locomotives are made in small quantities and many designs are one of a kind. Even older designs like F3s and 21" passenger cars have added features and details that can have problems.

So my theory is that the non BTO trains are reliable because of their simplicity and larger and more traditional production runs. The BTO items are new designs with more complex assembly and thus have problems. 

So, am I on to something or way off base? What do you think?


----------



## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

I have replaced so many bent wheel sets on starter sets, it's not even funny. Or how about the completely WRONG wire used on the S Scale PE front truck? It is solid! As in won't move! ON A PILOT TRUCK! I've fixed 5 of those thus far.

Streamliner coupler issues from cheap SF sets... along with overall poor fit and finish. Oh, it's NOT just scale stuff...


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2018)

Joe, I tend to think we hear more about the higher end products as the purchaser should expect trouble free operations and when that does not happen, the sting of it hurts even more. The many issues that we have learned about appear to be directly related to quality control issues at the point of origin. They have ranged from wrong paint colors to equipment that is broken and/or just doesn't run correctly. 

There is a good reason why Scott Mann spends a lot of time in China with first hand quality control. Lionel could take a good lesson from him.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

It appears the Niagara's arrived with minimal issues...


----------



## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I have gotten out of the Lionel pool for now.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

A lot of the RTR and traditional locos have been in production cycles for many years so any issues have been ironed out way back when.

Bill


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2018)

Volphin said:


> I have replaced so many bent wheel sets on starter sets, it's not even funny. Or how about the completely WRONG wire used on the S Scale PE front truck? It is solid! As in won't move! ON A PILOT TRUCK! I've fixed 5 of those thus far.
> 
> Streamliner coupler issues from cheap SF sets... along with overall poor fit and finish. Oh, it's NOT just scale stuff...


Thanks for the info, Volphin. I hadn't heard about those issues.


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2018)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Joe, I tend to think we hear more about the higher end products as the purchaser should expect trouble free operations and when that does not happen, the sting of it hurts even more. The many issues that we have learned about appear to be directly related to quality control issues at the point of origin. They have ranged from wrong paint colors to equipment that is broken and/or just doesn't run correctly.
> 
> There is a good reason why Scott Mann spends a lot of time in China with first hand quality control. Lionel could take a good lesson from him.


You may be right, Brian. I run traditional size trains, no Legacy or Premier locomotives so I don't have any experience with them. I would be very unhappy if a $400 locomotive had some of these problems, I can understand the frustration and anger when it's a $1,000 - $2,000 locomotive.


----------



## Guest (Dec 15, 2018)

seayakbill said:


> A lot of the RTR and traditional locos have been in production cycles for many years so any issues have been ironed out way back when.
> 
> Bill


That's what I'm thinking.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Lionel sTarter sets aren't worth buying because they are such poor quality. They have just worked too much cost out of the product for it to have any durability, and I've had gobs of small problems right out of the box. 

I must admit my recent H10 had no issues, so maybe there is hope yet. I do worry about that ABA set of Black Bonnet PAs I ordered from Pats Trains. Hope they aren't Black Bouquet when they arrive!!!


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The last few years, my son has traveled quite a bit in Asia. He has lived in both Taiwan and the Philippines for extended periods. He has met many people from many Asian countries and he told me most of the people he has met are great, but that his least favorite people are from mainland China. He says their primary objective is to make as much money as possible…and nothing else really matters. Will someone get hurt by the lead paint or other chemicals in your product? Doesn’t matter if it makes you more money. Will it break (or not work) in short order? Doesn’t matter if it makes you more money. Should I stop assembly of these locos because there is an obvious defect? Not if it will cost you money. Not saying that’s true of all mainland Chinese people, but that has been his observation. And it makes me think that the money first / everything else last culture is at least one factor in the problems we have been seeing lately with model trains made in China.


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

There is quality in manufacturing without defects and there is quality in the choice of materials and design. Mostly we read about manufacturing defects but Lionel is also cheapening their product. Going back to thumbtack couplers, lack of passengers in rolling stock, now plastic trucks instead of metal. 
My recent RPO purchase had plastic, unsprung trucks. I don't think Weaver ever used plastic in their passenger trucks and their plastic freight car trucks sure rolled much easier than these. Given their price is now more than MTH Premier two car sets were only a few years ago they should be much better than this.
I have not seen MTH cheapening their product yet though John says they are no longer using Pittman motors. Hope the new ones are as good.

Pete


----------



## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

most are saying product cheapening to me is reminiscent of when toy trains era passed and lionel cheapened the product line back then! also reminds me of MPC era.

PTC hit it on the head you want quality then like another well known toy train maker you have to be up front and in there face all the time and that means in person. all I can say is the big man is gone so they cannot blame him and the rest left in charge well it seems to have gotten worse not better. only my thoughts its a shame unfortunately quality issues not only with toy trains most all I come across saying we have customer service is all lip service anymore back in the day work force and companies had pride a lost art anymore.


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Norton said:


> There is quality in manufacturing without defects and there is quality in the choice of materials and design. Mostly we read about manufacturing defects but Lionel is also cheapening their product. Going back to thumbtack couplers, lack of passengers in rolling stock, now plastic trucks instead of metal.
> My recent RPO purchase had plastic, unsprung trucks. I don't think Weaver ever used plastic in their passenger trucks and their plastic freight car trucks sure rolled much easier than these. Given their price is now more than MTH Premier two car sets were only a few years ago they should be much better than this.
> I have not seen MTH cheapening their product yet though John says they are no longer using Pittman motors. Hope the new ones are as good.
> 
> Pete


I'm shocked to learn about the plastic, unsprung trucks on Lionel passenger cars. That sounds like the bottom of the barrel to me. I did not realize the cheapening of their products had reached such a low point. Wow1

Art


----------



## Guest (Dec 16, 2018)

I've been lucky to have very few problems with Lionel products. The biggest problems I've had are loose passengers or windows which I fix myself in 15 minutes. "Knock on Wood!"

Emile


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> I have not seen MTH cheapening their product yet though John says they are no longer using Pittman motors. Hope the new ones are as good.


Lionel and MTH have stopped using the Pittman motors, and I can assure you at least the Lionel Canon motors are floor sweepings! I just finished replacing my 3rd Canon motor in a Legacy locomotive, that exceeds ALL the motors I previous replaced in ALL brands of streamers! I'm sliding Canon to the bottom of the quality pile, and when my Canon printer craps out, I'll be buying anything but another Canon! They seem to have made their way to the bottom end of the quality scale.


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Is there anything better than Pittman? Anyway all I know is I still don’t have my mogul. All I know is they are being shipped back. On the water or in the air who knows.

You would figure Lionel has somebody doing metrics? Spend some money up front so your not spending money fixing all this stuff on the back end. Of late guess they’d rather fix it at the back end.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

If Lionel is using Canon, what is MTH using?

A cost cutting move by both companies?

With Lionel not doing out of warranty repairs, they won’t get to see the results of poor decisions.


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Lionel is apparently following the new Teslas model, don't even try to correct the assembly line problems, do it all after it leaves the factory. 

You make more bad products quicker that way.

Art


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I believe that MTH is using larger Mabuchi motors, don't have a recent one open to look at right now.  I'm real disappointed in Lionel's choice.

Gary, I'm sure there's something better than Pittman, but it's way up the quality scale from what is now shipping.


----------



## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Pittman motors were the choice of Overland Models and Precision Scale Company (Iron Horse Models) for a reason. If you weren't aware, they produced the best high end 2 rail O Scale models.

What is going on at Lionel.....?


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> .... Anyway all I know is I still don’t have my mogul. All I know is they are being shipped back. On the water or in the air who knows.
> 
> .....


Gary, when Ryan Kunkle previewed Lionel's GHWB "41" Funeral Train offerings last week, he also made a few other comments -- one of which was a status update on the Moguls:

"... The Moguls have returned from the factory. Customer Service will be checking each one and then sending them back to the original owners - they will likely return to you shortly after the new year." ...​
Hope this all ends well for Legacy Mogul users.

David


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Gary, when Ryan Kunkle previewed Lionel's GHWB "41" Funeral Train offerings last week, he also made a few other comments -- one of which was a status update on the Moguls:
> 
> "... The Moguls have returned from the factory. Customer Service will be checking each one and then sending them back to the original owners - they will likely return to you shortly after the new year." ...​
> Hope this all ends well for Legacy Mogul users.
> ...


Awesome news Dave. Thanks for the update.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

86TA355SR said:


> Pittman motors were the choice of Overland Models and Precision Scale Company (Iron Horse Models) for a reason. If you weren't aware, they produced the best high end 2 rail O Scale models.
> 
> What is going on at Lionel.....?


I suspect the Pittman is 2-3 times the price of the cheap motors they're now using, so that should tell you what's going on at Lionel.

The current situation reminds me of Lionel's "plastic period" where they were making the cheapest stuff possible. I think they're trying to squeeze every dollar out of the product and hope we don't notice. Although I'm happy with my H10 now, one little "quality" touch that's gone is the brass bell, it's cast and painted to save money.

I don't know where it all ends.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

So how far back did they change from Pittman? I need to know so I know what not to buy.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

All I'm gonna say is this. If we read between the lines on many of the posts in this thread, then it's pretty clear that quality materials are being scrutinized and in some cases replaced with crap that we can't see as casual enthusiasts -- yet we're paying top dollar for these products.

Newsflash: Enjoy the trains you have, and make VERY selective purchases going forward. I feel bad for those who are just now ramping up their locomotive and rolling stock rosters. Many of here already have more trains than we'll ever need, so we should have no trouble watching from the sidelines until we start seeing significant quality changes for the better. I realize that's easier said than done, but I think you get my drift.

I hate to add insult to injury here, but Lionel is also cheapening the VisionLine brand in some cases. We were lucky to get mostly glowing reports on the latest VL Niagara. And I'm hoping for similar results with the upcoming VL Challenger (as I pre-ordered Charlie Nassau's Western Maryland exclusive). However, the new VisionLine Baggage Car seems nothing more than StationSounds diner technology installed in a baggage car. So what is VisionLine about that???  Aside from the black VisionLine box used to package the car, I don't see how it really fits the VisionLine "brand". But it looks good in the catalog! 

David


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I have been giving some more thought to this topic 

One important point, I think, Country Joe, is to point out that you were right in your opening post to say that "from very unscientific observation" you have concluded that almost all of Lionel's the quality problems are with high end BTO locomotives. This forum gives us a very skewed look at Lionel's product line. Most forum members buy high-end, not RTR and entry level products, so we really don't know if the lower-end products are plagued with quality problems or not. 

Then, too, many folks who buy an RTR set a Christmas or as a first train probably aren't on this forum to given their opinion. So again, we don't here good or bad. We have no data. 

I have bought several Lionel and MTH RTR sets in the last ten years, for grandkids, etc., and in the cases of both MTH and Lionel I found the sets to be about a cheap as possible - every penny worked out of cost - cheap materials, etc. Both company's product gave minor problems, but did work. But both were not durable. My grandkids now have locos and rolling stock that are "mid level" Railking Scale locos or LC+ locos and good rolling stock with metal trucks and couplers, etc. 

I think one thing that is perhaps hurting quality at Lionel is that some of the locos are made in small lots - only 500 or less at a time, and while the casting of the loco body may be a rerun, the innards such as motor, electronics, etc., and not entirely old and tried and true, but new/evolved. The company is not set up or inclined to do the type of intense quality engineering and checking up front needed to verify all will go as well as hoped, and as a result they have disasters like the Mogul and the early two-motor LC+ diesels: it takes just as much effort to do that on a 500-lot production run as a 50,000 lot run, but the economics aren't as attractive. This won't explain the sloppy assembly of passenger car windows and couplers, which is just that - unmanaged sloppiness at the factory, but it explains a lot . .


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

DennyM said:


> So how far back did they change from Pittman? I need to know so I know what not to buy.


I know the 2011 Vision Hudson has a Buhler motor. These appear to be a quality motor as opposed to the Canon now used.
Keep in mind Pittmans were only used in scale steam engines. Few if any diesels ever got them and most small steam like the 0-6-0s got a Mabuchi. I suspect that will continue as Mabuchis continue to be very inexpensive.
The TMCC Mogul from 2003 got a rare small Pittman which is no longer available and the Buhler in the Hudson is also listed as NLA.

I have ordered a few Swiss Maxon motors off the bay that I plan to experiment with. These are generally very high quality though the ones on eBay tend to be their less expensive line in the size used in our trains. Their catalog shows 4 different lines with the most expensive listing for well into triple figures. No doubt quality items but way overkill for me.

Someone got a deal on a TMCC Mogul a few days ago. Listed as a Buy It Now for 250 bucks it was gone within an hour.

Pete


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just think of all the Lionel starter sets that will be under the tree this Christmas that won't work out of the box. Great way to grow the hobby isn't it.:eyes:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I know the 2012 Legacy Blue Comet has the Canon motor, don't know how much earlier they switched over. The Blue Comet was one of the first ones I got to experience the Canon motor taking out the RCMC board with a direct short.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Norton said:


> I know the 2011 Vision Hudson has a Buhler motor. These appear to be a quality motor as opposed to the Canon now used.
> Keep in mind Pittmans were only used in scale steam engines. Few if any diesels ever got them and most small steam like the 0-6-0s got a Mabuchi. I suspect that will continue as Mabuchis continue to be very inexpensive.
> The TMCC Mogul from 2003 got a rare small Pittman which is no longer available and the Buhler in the Hudson is also listed as NLA.
> 
> ...


I've never had a problem with any of my Legacy engines except for the smoke unit fan motors which I was told a bad batch had been installed at the factory. They all have newer motors now save two which have stopped working. I have the new motors, but I think there might be a issue with the command board on one.



superwarp1 said:


> Just think of all the Lionel starter sets that will be under the tree this Christmas that won't work out of the box. Great way to grow the hobby isn't it.:eyes:


Sounds like a Grinch like situation.


----------



## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

You're a mean one...Mr. Grinch...


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2018)

Lionel cheapening their products reminds me of the same thing that happened in the post war era. Lionel trains made in the late '40s were, for the most part, not scale but very nice models with added details like screens on the F3s and wire railings on tenders. In the early '50s some of these details were gone as Lionel tried to save some money. Toward the end of the '50s Lionel had cheapened the whole line. In the '60s it got worse as Lionel sales dropped and the company eventually went bankrupt. The same thing seems to be happening today. It makes me think that sales are not as strong as Lionel would want them to be so they look to save money by cheapening their trains.

Does anyone know about MTH quality? Do they have the same problems as Lionel? I don't buy or run Premier locomotives so I have no experience with them. The last Railking locomotive I bought was the Aerotrain and that was about 3 years ago. My Railking locomotives, like my LionChief Plus locomotives, have been trouble free but it's a very, very small sample so I may just have been lucky so far. I guess the bottom line is, does MTH have better overall quality control than Lionel?

About 20 years ago when I was into LGB I met Wolfgang Richter and Ron Gibson. They were just beginning to move the manufacturing of some LGB trains from Germany to China. I expressed concern about China not being able to meet the quality standards of the products made in Germany. They said that China was capable of manufacturing very high quality trains but the company they were making them for had to demand it from them and keep on top of the manufacturing process, which they intended to do. Relating this to Lionel, it would seem that Lionel isn't demanding quality from China, they aren't keeping the pressure on to make good products, and the Chinese factory is producing inferior products for Lionel.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I think a lot of companies end up going cheap. All the years I was a in the food service industry well known chains and franchises start off with quality product, but over the years they slowly started to use substandard products. People didn't notice because as the years went by the younger customers didn't know how it was before they were born.

There's a fellow here in town had great food. The last time I ate there I couldn't finish because it sucked.


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

A few years ago I would have said that Lionel had better quality, but today I think it might be MTH. At least we aren't getting the surprises from MTH regarding paint jobs.

Art


----------



## Guest (Dec 17, 2018)

David (Rocky Mountaineer) stated it correctly when he said that that a lot of us are insulated from the current Lionel quality issues as we have all the equipment that we could possible use. The last Lionel engine I purchased was in 2014. I would love to have added something since then from Lionel, but the offerings have left me cold, not to mention all of the quality issues. 

I was very interested in the recent Sante Fe Legacy F3's until I read the reviews and saw photos that to me were a far cry from what I was looking for. Prototypical shiny side panels, forget it, what I saw did not come close to what I was hoping for. If 3rd Rail and Atlas can do it, why not Lionel. So I will look elsewhere though I would have liked Legacy, I can live with TMCC. 

Hopefully, the current state of affairs will change and we will get back the high quality that the hobby deserves.


----------



## Bill S (Nov 21, 2015)

Questionable quality cost them at least a couple of sales. I did not order the Milwaukee Bicentennial or Hiawatha scheme SD40-2. I am happy after reading all the problems I did not order the Amtrak F40. I am concerned about the future. I am now seeing people with products like the Lionel JLC GG1's having zinc problems. You would hope since you made it 10 years with the electronics you would be pretty safe and then your side frames rot!


----------



## firsttimer (Jul 30, 2018)

*Engines Aren't the Only Product with Problems*

I am a recent arrival at the hobby and am primarily a toy train guy. In assembling and constructing my layout I have found that the Lionel operating accessories are of incredibly shoddy manufacture as witnessed by the fact that I have had THREE Track Gang accessories go bad, TWO Scrap Yard and a Windmill. On top of that I had a Burning Switch Tower which didn't smoke (I ended up adding my own smoke generator) and an Oil Derrick with a fried circuit board. Contacting Lionel for replacement parts was a waste of time as I was consistently told that, if you can believe it, "no spare parts were manufactured for the item." These were not prohibitively costly items so I can empathize with you enthusiasts who paid big bucks for the engines only to find them of lousy quality. Such a shame.


----------



## Bill S (Nov 21, 2015)

I was told about the parts issue a few years back. I was told it cost less to have a full item made, packaged and shipped rather than send parts, it may be taxed at a higher rate as parts rather than a finished item. Meaning they are taxed on 100 individual parts rather than I finished item. Think of Christmas lights. We were looking for 3.5v mini light replacements. 99 cents for 5 replacement bulbs or a set of 35 for $1.99.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Bill S said:


> We were looking for 3.5v mini light replacements. 99 cents for 5 replacement bulbs or a set of 35 for $1.99.


We buy new ones every year, then send them to Goodwill after Christmas. It's worked for 20 years, no changing bulbs, headaches or getting the ladder out!


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Chugman said:


> A few years ago I would have said that Lionel had better quality, but today I think it might be MTH. At least we aren't getting the surprises from MTH regarding paint jobs.
> 
> Art


I have purchased 5 MTH locos over the past couple years with zero issues. Run perfectly and no so called shipping damages out of the boxes. And the best thing, they look like what the real deal looked like.

Bill


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

While I consider the MTH wireless coupler with its propensity to short out or fail a design weakness, I buy any MTH loco - diesel or steamer, with confidence. While I once did that with Lionel, I no longer pre-order, and wait and think hard before buying anything it makes. 

A real shame, but the company is what the current management made it - maybe that is profitable, or not, but its not the company I want to do business with.


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Agreed, MTH seems to be bullet proof these days, aside from DCS/wifi issues. Anything can have issues, but MTH always run when I put a new one on the layout. Can't say that with Lionel of late and I've purchased three in the past year.


----------



## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Admittedly, my view on this topic varies from many of you "daily" MTF posters in that I do not buy or own either BTO or otherwise high-end Lionel engines. It's not because I don't like them or that they're not within my budget but simply because psychologically I can't justify, (and excuse me if I offend any of you,) spending a grand or more on what to me is still essentially a toy, albeit a very sophisticated toy. While I have some MTH Premiere steam and diesel engines, I also have Railking steamers, conventional scale steamers from Williams and Lionel, as well as traditional locomotives from RMT, K-Line, and Lionel plus Lionel LionChief, LionChief Plus, and even a FlyerChief engine.
I guess I'm just fortunate to never have experienced the number of problems many of you've had to deal with from Lionel.
Finally, in fairness, let's not overlook that MTH products haven't escaped unscathed from QC issues either. A case in point is their newest innovation of micro led light strings strung on holiday boxcars, passenger cars, and engines. Those lights have had more than a few reported incidents of failure or partial failure too.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I have considered buying MTH, but only conventional. I have no interest in DCS. WBB has some nice engines with True Blast Plus. They are strictly conventional, but that's find with me and I like the way they sound. As for Lionel, I'm staying away from current models. The newest I have came out in 2014.


----------

