# Coupler change help. HO scale.



## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Did a search on this site and was overwhelmed with pages of info. Most of my cars are Tyco and other brands that connect to the Tyco's w/o a problem. So far I have 50 to 60 cars. It would be easier to switch out the coupler on the loco to this style. Athearns GP39-2 and 38-2 are 2 of my new loco's. On the Kadee site, I downloaded the pfd conversion chart. Still not sure what Im looking at. Option 2 is the different couplers on either end of the cars. But that limits the line up of the cars. Which coupler would solve my issues. I see pages "coupler threads". For now, I'd like to get my cars on the track and later on, switch to a higher end coupler as I get educated. Thanks again.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

if you really want a 'higher end' coupler, go to genuine kadees, and body mount them ..


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Put a car behind loco, kadee on one end, horn hook on other.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Your older cars have so-called X2F or "hook-horn" couplers, which have now mostly been supplanted by Kadee and equivalent "scale knuckle" couplers -- beware though: only Kadee and Walthers make METAL couplers; the other brands are plastic and prone to failure.

To be blunt, the BEST solution is to just get rid of the Tyco and invest in better quality cars. Tyco often has truck mounted couplers, which are more prone to derailments in the first place, and they have plastic truck kingposts and wheels, all of which add friction / drag and slop in the movement to your trains. Tyco cars are often sloppy about coupler height as well, which contributes to unwanted uncoupling. Tyco cars are also not the easiest to convert to better quality couplers, usually involving cutting off coupler boxes and replacing them with Kadees.

First of all, get a coupler height gauge (you can use your NMRA standards gauge, but a coupler height gauge is easier to use). Either of these will work: Search Results

Next, take one of your Tyco cars that has BODY-MOUNTED couplers at the proper height (per the gauge). Hopefully, you can find one. Convert one end of this car to a Kadee #5. You will probably need to cut off the existing coupler box and mount a Kadee coupler box in its place (buy the coupler boxes preassembled with a coupler already installed; assembling them without the proper jig is a real PITA). Make sure you get the height of the new coupler correct; shim if necessary. You don't NEED to use a #5; all knuckle couplers are compatible, but #5 is as close as it gets to a universal standard.

Now you can assemble mixed coupler trains; your transition car just has to go between all the knuckle couplers and X2F's.

Gradually, as time and funds allow, you can (and should) convert all of your cars to body-mounted knuckle couplers.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Some of the Tyco cars are unique, Kellogg's for instants. They also have "Hooker Header, Champion Spark Plug etc... Other tyco's, not so much, but they came used in a "lot" of cars from multiple ebay purchase's. I'm slowly gathering higher end cars, they sure aren't cheap though. I'd say about 25% of my collection isnt tyco. But they couple with the tyco's. ( maybe I better double check on that to be sure) I will do as you guys suggest and as time and funds allow, convert over. For now the X2F is probably what I need for the loco. The layout building process is going along decent. This whole model train hobby is taking way more time than I thought and that's a good thing. It's keeping me busy. DCC is so much more than I ever anticipated, again that's a good thing. Without this site, I'd have all tyco products including the brass track to deal with. This site and it's members are what I consider " high end" . Cant thank you guys/gals enough. Especially for such quick response's.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

If it were me, I wouldn't standardize on the X2F's, no matter what. But you have to do you. Just about every car made before about 1990 came with X2F's, and it's only probably in the last 15 years that new models were delivered with knuckle couplers installed; but many still include X2Fs, just in case.

The attraction of "unique" Tyco cars is subjective. I've never seen actual railroad cars in Kellogs livery, nor Hooker Header, Champion Spark Plug, etc., so you wouldn't find them on my layout, but I understand that not everyone sees it that way. There is a case to be made for putting those on display somewhere and not actually running them, too.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

The X2F's are just for the time being/ temporary. For a few dollars I can enjoy the cars and layout while its under construction as that takes most of my time. Most of the tyco tanker cars have been repainted blue and yellow to CSX . Bought some Chessie system box cars and hopper cars from a member here ( non tyco) The "food" cars such as Sara Lee, Baby Ruth, Hershey, Swift, Starkist , etc will more than likely get put up for sale. I may put every tyco engine up for sale, brass track, switches, power pack, and eventually most of the cars. Maybe around next Christmas. I really am hooked on the new loco's 2 CSX ( 2 versions) Soo Line, Norfolk and Southern ( horse head) Next will be a NBSF. I worked for 31 plus years as a fulltime fire fighter and 25 of them at a station that was right next to the tracks. Never seen a "food" car either. Most of the cars were "works of art" as the ever popular gang graffiti paint scheme. Witnessed a car/train collision too. Worked 24 hour shifts so sleeping was kinda tough at first. Loud air horns. But after awhile I could sleep right thru all the night train runs and there were a lot of them. Many of our response times were delayed by trains, but that was just part of it. One train we all hated was the Sunday 8 am run from Amtrak. That air horn was obnoxiously loud as in ear piercing. When the station doors were open, we'd all have hearing protection close by just for Amtrak.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Tyco produced a lot of fantasy paint schemes during the Sara Lee years. Total nonsense.

You could always repaint those cars in a flat grey with nothing on them but the car information. You would have a partial unit train of covered hoppers or whatever type they were.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

You are right. My wife likes those billboard cars, so now I have to keep them and couple them. I should have never shown her those. Oh well, if she likes it, there nothing wrong with that. Still gonna sell the other tyco and lifelike locos though. I may give some away to friends whose kids are young to get them interested. The longer I thought about it, its probably best to go with the better coupler on the cars I will keep.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Did a search on this site and was overwhelmed with pages of info. Most of my cars are Tyco and other brands that connect to the Tyco's w/o a problem. So far I have 50 to 60 cars. It would be easier to switch out the coupler on the loco to this style. Athearns GP39-2 and 38-2 are 2 of my new loco's. On the Kadee site, I downloaded the pfd conversion chart. Still not sure what Im looking at. Option 2 is the different couplers on either end of the cars. But that limits the line up of the cars. Which coupler would solve my issues. I see pages "coupler threads". For now, I'd like to get my cars on the track and later on, switch to a higher end coupler as I get educated. Thanks again.


Tigger;

If you're running Tyco HO-scale, the couplers on your cars are probably the old X-2F "horn hook" type.
(A photo of the couplers on both your Tyco cars, and your Athearn GP-38/39 locos, would help a lot.)
As you say, the simple solution (at least as far as just coupling the locos to the cars goes) would be to mount a horn hook coupler on at least one end of each loco. However, there may be other issues.
Nearly all Tyco cars have their couplers mounted to their trucks. This lets the couplers swivel with the trucks through tight curves. Most all new locomotives, (and some newer cars too) come with body-mounted couplers. This mixture of coupler mounting locations is a bad combination in its own right, and it gets worse if you have 18" radius curves and/or Atlas "Snap Switch" turnouts on your layout.

You can try mounting a horn hook coupler on your locomotive and see how that works out. The long term, and better, solution is the same one thousands of model railroaders have opted for, replace the truck-mounted horn hook couplers with body-mounted Kadee couplers. The file below has more info on couplers and the problems with mixing body-mounts with truck-mounts. Also the tight curve issue.

Traction Fan


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

H'm, there must be a reason that everyone is recommending Kadee's. I would slowly start working on converting the cars you like. I also would suggest the Kadee coupler gauge. Make a couple of conversion cars (Kadee on one end and x2f on the other. You can get Kadee's in bulk blister packs. There are an overwhelming number of variation with Kaydee so you will be overwhelmed with what to get, but I'm sure others will chime in on what is the best choice for most of the conversions. I would have a tendency to leave the Tyco truck mounted couplers till last as it may be best to replace the truck and body mount the coupler, so you really need to be sure the car is worth the effort. One of the first thing I do to an old car (besides the coupler) is to replace the truck axels with all metal wheels. So you might consider a box of Intermountain wheels. The combination of Kadee couplers and metal wheels with make a significant difference in the running of the cars. They just sort of glide forever. We are really good at spending your money!


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

A few of the cars I own have the body mounted couplers already. I havent had them on the tracks yet. I'm still not 100% set on the current layout, so some changes are still in the works. The "tyco food cars" will not be updated to the newer kadee's. just 1 on the lead car. I dont see my wife spending hours watching those go around, so I wont updated those. I''ll steer clear of tyco cars from now on. Does anybody know how many different couplers Kadee makes? Sure seem like that list on their website is huge. I'll get some pictures of the couplers on the loco's later today. Thanks traction fan for that attachment.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

CTValleyRR said:


> The attraction of "unique" Tyco cars is subjective. I've never seen actual railroad cars in Kellogs livery, nor Hooker Header, Champion Spark Plug, etc., so you wouldn't find them on my layout, but I understand that not everyone sees it that way. There is a case to be made for putting those on display somewhere and not actually running them, too.


Well, there's this, but it's probably not like remotely what the Tyco car is like:



Canadian Freight Railcar Gallery - USLX 10528





Canadian Freight Railcar Gallery - KELX 305053



Canadian Freight Railcar Gallery - ACFX 45413 

The last is only indentifiable by some small print at the center of the car. The "KELX" reporting marks on the middle car are registered to Kellogg, but it's otherwise a rather unassuming plain paint scheme.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Tigger said:


> A few of the cars I own have the body mounted couplers already. I havent had them on the tracks yet. I'm still not 100% set on the current layout, so some changes are still in the works. The "tyco food cars" will not be updated to the newer kadee's. just 1 on the lead car. I dont see my wife spending hours watching those go around, so I wont updated those. I''ll steer clear of tyco cars from now on. Does anybody know how many different couplers Kadee makes? Sure seem like that list on their website is huge. I'll get some pictures of the couplers on the loco's later today. Thanks traction fan for that attachment.


To understand Kadee couplers:

#5 is their standard coupler they've produced for decades.
#148 is the #5 but with an integrated wire "whisker" spring that makes it easier to install in most cases.

#58 is similar to the #5, but with a smaller size "scale" head.
#158 is the whisker spring version of the #58.

Everything else is some variation of either the "standard" #5 or "scale" #58 but with longer or shorter shanks, under- or over-set heads or modified mounting arrangements to fit specific situations if the standard #5/58 doesn't fit properly.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

HO Coupler Reference Charts


Couplers, Trucks, Wheels and Freight Cars - Made In USA




www.kadee.com


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## Roy Merritt (10 mo ago)

When I started "tuning" my rolling stock and decided on Kadee I got this starter pack. KADEE #1030 HO SCALE STARTER PACK It includes all the basics to get you started including the ever important coupler height gage. More importantly, it gives couples that include 3 different length and 3 different heights to help you chose which to use.

It seemed a bit pricy to me, but I'm really glad a got it. All the tools, odds and ends, and sufficient coupler examples to do trial fits really worked out for me.


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## DonW (Mar 25, 2012)

As above, best thing I ever did was to buy Kadee test fit kit. Mine was a little cheaper as it didn't include pliers (already had). I have retro fit a lot of older cars with Kadees and steel wheels, makes operations go a lot smoother when couplers are properly fit.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I replaced the couplers on every Tyco car I have which is maybe approaching 20 with kadee. Unfortunately I did this a few years back and simply don't recall the details ... But I did the easiest thing whatever it was. I did not cut, grind, sand or dramatically change the existing mounting -- and perhaps after some experimentation I determined which kadee worked best. I also replaced the plastic wheels with metal wheels. Unfortunately I won't be able to set my eyes on them again for a few days and can give no further insight until then on specifics.

(For what it's worth, all the Thomas stuff and two European engines too. Also the couplers on some ancient Sante fe coaches)


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## Bonz85 (Sep 16, 2019)

Certainly kadee is the best and I wont put anything but on quality rolling stock. However on Tyco cars if you aren't going to body mount the couplers I would recommend using bachmann ezmate couplers, they actually tend to work quite nicely to replace truck mounted horn hook couplers on Tyco and Life Like without any modifications. Saying that I'm assuming you're not running really long consists with your Tyco cars. 
If you're pulling 10, 20 maybe 30 cars on your layout I don't see having much issues using plastic knuckle couplers. I have a handful of ezmate and other plastic couplers I haven't switched out yet and unless the coupler heights are a ways off they can handle over 60 cars up a grade without failing. But have to add I'm certain they wont be doing that 30 plus years later like a kadee will.
Main thing is if you like them and especially if your wife enjoys them keep them on the layout. While I don't pull any Tyco type rolling stock since they don't handle long consists I enjoy breaking out a couple of my old Life Like GP38's every now and then, they are actually decent pullers for a 30 yr old locomotive.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Kadee has fittings to replace truck mounted couplers. It's a little plastic piece you stick over the pin and twist into place. Once you get the hang of it it's easy peasy. That said, I've body mounted all my couplers.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Murv2 said:


> Kadee has fittings to replace truck mounted couplers. It's a little plastic piece you stick over the pin and twist into place. Once you get the hang of it it's easy peasy. That said, I've body mounted all my couplers.


But that doesn't make them body-mounted couplers. So you still have all the issues associated with a truck mounted coupler. The best solution is to completely remove the truck mounting and install a body mounted one at the correct height. Yes, that's much more work, but worth it in the end.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

So my motivation was just to keep the tyco usable. I did the minimal effort and it's a good enough solution for me. And then I bought some newer scale items.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

The GP38 an 39 genesis engines that I have use this coupler "Body mounted McHenry scale knuckle couplers - Kadee compatible"


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

The McHenry’s are plastic knuckle couplers, and come with all Athearn equipment now….Kadees are metal, and will never wear out, and rarely, VERY rarely, break….every piece of Athearn equipment I acquire gets a change-over to Kadees as soon as they are out of the box….


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I will upgrade to Kadee's for sure.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> The McHenry’s are plastic knuckle couplers, and come with all Athearn equipment now….Kadees are metal, and will never wear out, and rarely, VERY rarely, break….every piece of Athearn equipment I acquire gets a change-over to Kadees as soon as they are out of the box….


I usually leave cheap, crappy plastic couplers in place until they fail, then I replace them. But whether it takes a month or a few years, they all eventually go.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Well, I don’t even give them a chance, I guess..… 😁


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I have some McHenry’s on rolling stock that have held up pretty good so far but
locomotives get Kadees right out of the box every time.

Magic


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Maybe it’s just a fetish for me….but I’ll call it a preference 😁 ….I like to have all my locomotives and cars equipped with the same couplers, and those are Kadees….I have found that consistency is the key in this hobby, and reliable couplers contribute the most to that consistency….


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## Maddog (Jan 14, 2016)

Don't be too eager to dismiss Tyco trains. There is a website called called Tyco Depot Train Collectors that focuses mainly on Tyco: Home | Tyco Depot Train Collectors & Model Railroading Forum. US Veteran Owned and Operated

They also welcome other makers of equipment. Just another resource if you have questions about your Tyco collection.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Maddog said:


> Don't be too eager to dismiss Tyco trains. There is a website called called Tyco Depot Train Collectors that focuses mainly on Tyco: Home | Tyco Depot Train Collectors & Model Railroading Forum. US Veteran Owned and Operated
> 
> They also welcome other makers of equipment. Just another resource if you have questions about your Tyco collection.


There is a place for Tyco trains (other than the trash can). If you WANT to collect old Tyco, and you purchase it knowing what you're buying, then that's fine. The problem is that MOST buyers only see a price tag, and don't really understand what they're getting until it's too late.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I made a call yesterday to a friend and he's gonna stop by to look at my Tyco loco's. It's for his 5 year old grandson. I decided to sell most if not all of the DC Tyco stuff. Told him to help himself to as much brass track as he needed. His grandson loves train sets and if this get him into the hobby later in life, that would be great. I really dont want to deal with shipping these, I'd rather sell them locally via wastebook market place or craigslist. There are a few cars that I will part with as well.


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## SaxapahawRR (11 mo ago)

Unless they are in perfect shape all those old Tyco/Mantua cars are going to Ebay. Once you see the new stuff that is out the toy cars just wont cut it.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Bonz85 said:


> Certainly kadee is the best and I wont put anything but on quality rolling stock. However on Tyco cars if you aren't going to body mount the couplers I would recommend using bachmann ezmate couplers, they actually tend to work quite nicely to replace truck mounted horn hook couplers on Tyco and Life Like without any modifications. Saying that I'm assuming you're not running really long consists with your Tyco cars.
> If you're pulling 10, 20 maybe 30 cars on your layout I don't see having much issues using plastic knuckle couplers. I have a handful of ezmate and other plastic couplers I haven't switched out yet and unless the coupler heights are a ways off they can handle over 60 cars up a grade without failing. But have to add I'm certain they wont be doing that 30 plus years later like a kadee will.
> Main thing is if you like them and especially if your wife enjoys them keep them on the layout. While I don't pull any Tyco type rolling stock since they don't handle long consists I enjoy breaking out a couple of my old Life Like GP38's every now and then, they are actually decent pullers for a 30 yr old locomotive.


I acquired a bunch of HO parts and accessories from a friend who got out of model RR'ing. One of the things was a 25 pair- pack of Bachman EZ Mate 78105. Just the coupler, nothing else in the blister pack. Do these just snap in or is there another "plate" or something that they need to work? What I actually mean by acquired, is that he will mail them to me and I should be getting a box full of stuff soon and at a very good price, free. I asked if there was anything else to make these work and he didnt remember off hand. thanks


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## ATTDCC (May 7, 2020)

Tigger said:


> I acquired a bunch of HO parts and accessories from a friend who got out of model RR'ing. One of the things was a 25 pair- pack of Bachman EZ Mate 78105. Just the coupler, nothing else in the blister pack. Do these just snap in or is there another "plate" or something that they need to work? What I actually mean by acquired, is that he will mail them to me and I should be getting a box full of stuff soon and at a very good price, free. I asked if there was anything else to make these work and he didnt remember off hand. thanks


If they’re the whisker type couplers, they can just snap into the original truck mounted coupler box. I’d suggest getting the Kadee Talgo adaptors, they help reduce possible coupler pull outs and the like, although are somewhat challenging to put in


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

As a cost saving measure, perhaps consider running Tyco cars in pairs, using X2Fs as a sort of drawbar.
The X2Fs in that situation being the lowest priority to replace.
Apologies if this was previously suggested; I ended up skimming.


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## SaxapahawRR (11 mo ago)

CTValleyRR said:


> There is a place for Tyco trains (other than the trash can). If you WANT to collect old Tyco, and you purchase it knowing what you're buying, then that's fine. The problem is that MOST buyers only see a price tag, and don't really understand what they're getting until it's too late.


I learned my lesson. The vast majority of mine are going to "Flea-Bay" in a "Junkyard Lot".!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

ATTDCC said:


> If they’re the whisker type couplers, they can just snap into the original truck mounted coupler box. I’d suggest getting the Kadee Talgo adaptors, they help reduce possible coupler pull outs and the like, although are somewhat challenging to put in


Just saw this, and it my be overcome by events since jt seems like the OP will be getting rid of these cars, but EZ Mates are NOT a drop-in replacement for Tyco X2F couplers. You need the entire coupler box, and you should mount them on the body, not the trucks.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Murv2 said:


> Kadee has fittings to replace truck mounted couplers. It's a little plastic piece you stick over the pin and twist into place. Once you get the hang of it it's easy peasy. That said, I've body mounted all my couplers.


 Is this the bushing you're referring to?








#213 HO Scale 20-Series Gearboxes & Sleeves


#213 HO Scale 20-Series Gearboxes & Sleeves Included in 20-Series Coupler kits 20-Series Boxes with .055in.ID & .100in.ID bushing/sleeves. 24 each.UPC: 765484002130 WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm - www.P65Warnings.ca.gov WARNING: CHOKING HAZ




www.kadee.com


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## Bonz85 (Sep 16, 2019)

Tigger said:


> I acquired a bunch of HO parts and accessories from a friend who got out of model RR'ing. One of the things was a 25 pair- pack of Bachman EZ Mate 78105. Just the coupler, nothing else in the blister pack. Do these just snap in or is there another "plate" or something that they need to work? What I actually mean by acquired, is that he will mail them to me and I should be getting a box full of stuff soon and at a very good price, free. I asked if there was anything else to make these work and he didnt remember off hand. thanks


On some cars and locomotives with truck mounted couplers the ezmates will just snap right in however some will fit loose and tend to droop down. Shimming it with a small washer can help.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Tigger said:


> Is this the bushing you're referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...











#212 HO Scale Talgo Truck Adaptors


#212 HO Scale Talgo Truck Adaptors 24 per package Use the #230 Talgo Insertion Pic to insert #212 Talgo Adaptors into Talgo Truck coupler pockets. Talgo Truck Adaptors work with Kadee NO.5®, #58, 20-series couplers (#21, #22, #23, #24, #28, #26, #




www.kadee.com




You push it down from the top 90 degrees off the final position then twist it and it pops into place.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I messed with the (free) Bachman EZ mate couplers and I'm not very happy with the results. Kinda loose. I'm going with Kadee's number 5's or the kit number is #11 (20 pair) After a few of these Tyco's are upgraded, no more truck mounted couplers for me.
Edit: I didn't receive 25 pair as I first thought. Only 5 of them showed up in that "care package".


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