# Outdoor HO scale



## DexterJude

Hello all.
Running my HO scale around my koi pond. It runs fine in the rain.
Corrosion is an issue with nickel rails so switching to brass very soon.


----------



## sbeck80

That's cool! Did you have to do anything special to get it to run in the rain? I would have thought that rain would be a bigger issue..


----------



## tjcruiser

Wow ... *beautiful* bridge! Did you engineer / build that yourself? Any real-world prototype? That's a l-o-n-g unsupported span! I like the way the girder height varies, in proportion to the bending-moment and stresses on the bridge. Do you have an engineering background?

Do you really think brass will be better? That will tarnish / oxidize, too, though mostly on the surface (as opposed to pitting).

Thanks for the pics,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The bad thing is brass oxide is non-conductive, where nickel-silver oxide is conductive.


----------



## Cape T/A

Very cool, love the bridge!


----------



## sstlaure

Very cool. Rather than switching to brass, I'd get a good cleaning car like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKMExevHZjc


----------



## Cape T/A

^ thats cool! do they make one for O gauge too?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

There are a number of cleaning cars for O-guage, ranging from pretty cheap to absurd in price.


----------



## swiggy

i have to say, fine job:appl:.......i was told this would be VERY difficult to achieve. 

are the locos sealed? where is the power supply (inside or out)? any snow runs yet? bridge is huge, did you build that?

nice D&RGW cars, i run quite a few myself:thumbsup:
more pics please


----------



## NIMT

Cool concept, and yes very nice bridge!
In looking at the pictures and think I see a possible reason for your corrosion issues, you say you have nickel silver rail but it looks like steel rail to me??? Does a magnet stick to the rail? Is it Bachmann EZ track with black roadbed? 
Also brass rail will be 100 time more likely to tarnish, corrode and cause huge issues in there runnings!


----------



## DexterJude

sbeck80 said:


> That's cool! Did you have to do anything special to get it to run in the rain? I would have thought that rain would be a bigger issue..


I just cover my power source from the rain. Unfortunately I am still using nickel tracks, its necessary to sand the rails the day after.
I am switching to brass tracks.


----------



## DexterJude

tjcruiser said:


> Wow ... *beautiful* bridge! Did you engineer / build that yourself? Any real-world prototype? That's a l-o-n-g unsupported span! I like the way the girder height varies, in proportion to the bending-moment and stresses on the bridge. Do you have an engineering background?
> 
> Do you really think brass will be better? That will tarnish / oxidize, too, though mostly on the surface (as opposed to pitting).
> 
> Thanks for the pics,
> 
> TJ


I have an architecture background. I designed bridges. The bridge is my own design to fit that corner of my pond.


----------



## DexterJude

swiggy said:


> i have to say, fine job:appl:.......i was told this would be VERY difficult to achieve.
> 
> are the locos sealed? where is the power supply (inside or out)? any snow runs yet? bridge is huge, did you build that?
> 
> nice D&RGW cars, i run quite a few myself:thumbsup:
> more pics please


I am nervously awaiting the first snow fall. But it doesn't really snow that much where I am, more southern Michigan.

Thanks for your appreciation.


----------



## Smokinapankake

I would think that stainless rail would be the ticket. But I don't know where you would get some....

Also how does it hold up to the UV from the sun?


----------



## tjcruiser

DexterJude said:


> I have an architecture background. I designed bridges. The bridge is my own design to fit that corner of my pond.


Fabulous ... definitely the work of an arch/engineer type.

I embedded one of the pics in your first post ... a very graceful bridge!

TJ


----------



## NIMT

DexterJude said:


> I just cover my power source from the rain. Unfortunately I am still using nickel tracks, its necessary to sand the rails the day after.
> I am switching to brass tracks.


Has anyone told you that sanding your rails will ruin them?


----------



## tooter

DexterJude said:


> I have an architecture background. I designed bridges. The bridge is my own design to fit that corner of my pond.


Absolutely *beautiful*, Dexter! :thumbsup:
Beauty and sound mechanical design always go together hand in hand.


----------



## Ranger

That is nice looking


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

NIMT said:


> Has anyone told you that sanding your rails will ruin them?


In the other thread in my first post.


----------



## DexterJude

Thanks TJ for imbedding the pic.

I think I have steel rails. Definitely will be getting a track cleaning car. AND so many thanks for the advice. especially on the right rail to choose, next time.

I alreadybought about 100 linear feet of brass looking rails from ebay (used). About half are darker than the rest. I am hoping that a few will be that brass nickel plated type.


So a friend of mine ran his really heavy locomotive (made of brass) on my bridge. I can say i was a bit nervous. I only built it for my trains, which is mostly plastic. SO I will be making a new much more improved bridge to handle his trains.

I am also building a 3 foot bridge for him (indoors) which will handle the load stress of a brass train. 

I have decided to build 2 more (aside from his) and let my new friends here know about it first as I will be putting them on ebay in about two weeks. I figured since I have the blueprint, I might as well replicate a few more. 

Please tell me if I should just go ahead and build a 2 rail bridge.

Attached is the work in progress of the 3 footer.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You really don't want brass or steel for outdoor use. Just take a sample of each and leave it outside for a week or so, you'll know if you have Nickel-Silver track soon enough.


----------



## sstlaure

You could easily improve the strength of that bridge if you needed to by running some 1/2 or 1/4" square tubing underneath the bridge down the centerline under the track. Paint it black and it would probably disappear into the shadows.

I dig the double track - really like the bridge design. very classy


----------



## Big Ed

I love your bridge.:thumbsup:

It looks almost like a cantilever type bridge structure.
Like this one it is the Outer Bridge Crossing it connects Staten Island and Jersey together.











This type of bridge uses some kind of supports to hold the super structure up? Otherwise it would collapse?

The Outer Bridge was built with arched concrete piers supporting the steel trusses.









Your quote, I have an architecture background. I designed bridges. The bridge is my own design to fit that corner of my pond. 

Did you do any stress tests calculations on your design?
I mean if you were actually designing a real bridge like that, crossing a long area like that, with 100's of thousands of pounds over it?

I really do love what you made, but I think it would look better with some rock piers holding it up.
Edit,
What material did you make the bridge of wood?


----------



## tjcruiser

Just to clarify, nickel-silver rails are nickel-silver throughout ... they are not plated metal over brass.

TJ


----------



## NIMT

TJ is right Nickel Silver rail is Nickel Silver throught no brass in it.
If you want to help it out in the off time, wax the rails when your not using it.


----------



## DexterJude

big ed said:


> I love your bridge.:thumbsup:
> 
> It looks almost like a cantilever type bridge structure.
> Like this one it is the Outer Bridge Crossing it connects Staten Island and Jersey together.
> 
> View attachment 20442
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This type of bridge uses some kind of supports to hold the super structure up? Otherwise it would collapse?
> 
> The Outer Bridge was built with arched concrete piers supporting the steel trusses.
> 
> View attachment 20443
> 
> 
> Your quote, I have an architecture background. I designed bridges. The bridge is my own design to fit that corner of my pond.
> 
> Did you do any stress tests calculations on your design?
> I mean if you were actually designing a real bridge like that, crossing a long area like that, with 100's of thousands of pounds over it?
> 
> I really do love what you made, but I think it would look better with some rock piers holding it up.
> Edit,
> What material did you make the bridge of wood?




I calculate the stress loads on my bridge. Well to be honest, I use software to estimate the stresses. I also use that same program to made a 3D model and make blueprints.  I am much more interested in designing and building.
I am more an architect than a structural engineer. 
The five foot bridge holds 15 static pounds with ease. The scary part is that it is made of balsa wood. 

The 3 foot bridge is estimated to withstand 25 lbs. When I am done with it i will show pictures of my stress tests.


----------



## DexterJude

sstlaure said:


> You could easily improve the strength of that bridge if you needed to by running some 1/2 or 1/4" square tubing underneath the bridge down the centerline under the track. Paint it black and it would probably disappear into the shadows.
> 
> I dig the double track - really like the bridge design. very classy


Ok i will build the double track.
But not cheating with using metal tubing. I am a little sick like that.
I like the bridge to act and look like a bridge. Balsa is surprisingly strong, when 
used correctly.

For some reason every time I run my trains over it I always get a chill, some sense of nervous anticipation whether it will hold or not, even when knowing that it does.


----------



## New Berlin RR

DexterJude said:


> I calculate the stress loads on my bridge. Well to be honest, I use software to estimate the stresses. I also use that same program to made a 3D model and make blueprints.  I am much more interested in designing and building.
> I am more an architect than a structural engineer.
> The five foot bridge holds 15 static pounds with ease. The scary part is that it is made of balsa wood.
> 
> The 3 foot bridge is estimated to withstand 25 lbs. When I am done with it i will show pictures of my stress tests.


cool, I did something like that once for an engineering club, me and a friend made a bridge that some how held one full 5 gallon bucket (full ith water) and a partial of another...it was like 7 total gallons...we wern't sure how we managed to pull it off as we only used vanilla folders to make it! we just did a truss/girder/(i think) center beam style combo


----------



## Big Ed

DexterJude said:


> I calculate the stress loads on my bridge. Well to be honest, I use software to estimate the stresses. I also use that same program to made a 3D model and make blueprints.  I am much more interested in designing and building.
> I am more an architect than a structural engineer.
> The five foot bridge holds 15 static pounds with ease. The scary part is that it is made of balsa wood.
> 
> The 3 foot bridge is estimated to withstand 25 lbs. When I am done with it i will show pictures of my stress tests.


OK,  Nice bridge.:thumbsup: I like the color you picked too.:thumbsup:

The dog looks like....what the heck is my owner doing now????:laugh:

Hey, what is the yellow wire sitting in the water?
Edit, it was the reflection I saw it is out of the water.

Nice pond. Are there fish in the pond? I got a friend that is into them.
Do you have an air-rater for the pond? 
Some of those fish are EXPENSIVE!


----------



## gofisher2

DexterJude said:


> Ok i will build the double track.
> But not cheating with using metal tubing. I am a little sick like that.
> I like the bridge to act and look like a bridge. Balsa is surprisingly strong, when
> used correctly.
> 
> For some reason every time I run my trains over it I always get a chill, some sense of nervous anticipation whether it will hold or not, even when knowing that it does.


Just keep posting, really like your work and am looking forward to seeing what you make. You are very talented, an artist, and we all like to see talent at work.


----------



## norgale

That's really nice Dexter. Could you show us some more pictures or maybe a video of the train running? The bridge is excellent. Very good looking. Pete


----------



## DexterJude

big ed said:


> OK,  Nice bridge.:thumbsup: I like the color you picked too.:thumbsup:
> 
> The dog looks like....what the heck is my owner doing now????:laugh:
> 
> Hey, what is the yellow wire sitting in the water?
> Edit, it was the reflection I saw it is out of the water.
> 
> Nice pond. Are there fish in the pond? I got a friend that is into them.
> Do you have an air-rater for the pond?
> Some of those fish are EXPENSIVE!


LOL my dog Tiffany gets jealous when i play with the trains.
Yellow wire is for lighting.
Fish exist in the pond, just goldfish for now. 
I just use my submersible pump to oxygenate the water using my little water fall. Having a bit of an algae bloom though. I need a UV filter!

I have more pictures of my pond after much tidying up and switched to brass flex track. Since i changed tracks, it has been through rainy days. Some conductivity is lost but a bit of WD-40 does the trick. I like the brass track a lot it seems to work even with some patina present.

So much work still needed on the pond and trains.(I started building the pond in May 2012.)

I have been away and sort of neglecting the forum.I have been commissioned by my local hobby: JBAR Hobbies shop in Tecumseh, MI to build a scale model of the Mackinac Bridge for their store front. Been extremely busy lately.


----------



## DexterJude

more pics


----------



## tjcruiser

Beautiful landscaping / hardscaping work on the pond; very scenic RR setup.

Question -- Have you anchored the track to the ballast stone? If so, how?

Just curious,

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

My back hurts just thinking about moving all that rock in place.:thumbsdown:
I would hire someone to do that if I built one.

Very nice, to bad the water is so cloudy, I don't know much about the backyard ponds. My buddy has coy fish (spelled wrong?) in his, man some of those are expensive!

How come you went with HO?
Did you think about G scale?
Price?

Please keep us updated when you can, love what your doing.
Stop in when you can.
Does the dog go swimming in it?:thumbsup:


----------



## DexterJude

tjcruiser said:


> Beautiful landscaping / hardscaping work on the pond; very scenic RR setup.
> 
> Question -- Have you anchored the track to the ballast stone? If so, how?
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> TJ


Hi TJ,
Track isn't anchored to the pea gravel (ballast). I would have to soon i guess, especially when winter comes. Got any suggestions how?

My best guess is to use some sort of non toxic glue of some sort.


----------



## DexterJude

big ed said:


> My back hurts just thinking about moving all that rock in place.:thumbsdown:
> I would hire someone to do that if I built one.
> 
> Very nice, to bad the water is so cloudy, I don't know much about the backyard ponds. My buddy has coy fish (spelled wrong?) in his, man some of those are expensive!
> 
> How come you went with HO?
> Did you think about G scale?
> Price?
> 
> Please keep us updated when you can, love what your doing.
> Stop in when you can.
> Does the dog go swimming in it?:thumbsup:


Hey Ed,
My back does hurt LOL. 
Had to use a tractor to move the bigger rocks but there must be thousands of smaller rocks that had to moved by hand.
I went with HO because im poor, , and my pond isn't big enough for G scale. Water is cloudy from an algae bloom resulting from no shade trees around the pond. I either have to install a UV filter or plant some more trees around it.
My dog doesn't love to swim but my damn neighbor's dog, a lab sure likes to which pisses me off, have to coral the pond soon.


----------



## tjcruiser

DexterJude said:


> Hi TJ,
> Track isn't anchored to the pea gravel (ballast). I would have to soon i guess, especially when winter comes. Got any suggestions how?
> 
> My best guess is to use some sort of non toxic glue of some sort.


You could try that on a test area ... maybe clear silicone? (Normally, guys use latex caulk rather than silicone for interior track mount.)

I was thinking of another, mechanical approach. Requires digging up some spots in the ballast, though ...

Every 18" or so, dig down into the ballast about 6". Cut a 3" or 4" long small diameter PVC pipe, to be layed horizontally in the hole. But first, drill a small hole through the middle of the PVC, pass some seizing wire through the hole, and then wrap the wire 4 or 5 times around the pipe. Now, bury the PVC pipe back in the ballast, with the wire tail sticking straight up through the top of the ballast. Pass the wire through one of the holes in your track ties, push the track tight down to the ballast, and then bend the top tail of the seizing wire over that tie, sort of upside-down J-hook style. Trim the excess wire. You've essentially created a buried track anchor, of sorts.

Just a thought ...

TJ


----------

