# help with a 2689w (Lionel)



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I need help trouble shooting a 2689 whistle tender. The motor does not power on. The armuture closes at it is supost to when the whistle button is depressed. In greenbergs book it mentions to check for a grounded armature by the communicator segment. What is a commutator segment. Im thinking it is the peice that the wires go into with the insulated boards. If that is the case I may have a grounded armature. In addition what is a armature impeller assembly? The wiring looks good. And the brush plate looks good also. I think the wires are correct. Any thoughts appretiated. Thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The commutator is the flat copper face with segments that the brushes contact, it's on the armature. The impeller is on the other end of the armature, it's the blade that moves air to actually create the whistle.

Have you checked to see if the whistle relay actually provides power to the motor? If so, have you checked the motor brushes?

I don't know why they're asking you to check for a grounded segment, that's way down the list of things that will go wrong. Top of the list is brushes, brush springs, dirty commutator, and broken wires.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Sorry I have to post pics separately . I have to switch browsers on my phone.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

No broken wires. Brushes and brush springs look good. The communicator is clean. Dont know how to tell if the motor is getting power.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Have you connected power directly to the motor lead from the relay to see if the motor runs? 

Do you have a voltmeter?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Grj, I dont know how to directly power the motor. I have a volt meter but am not good at using it. I am not good at this low voltage stuff.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Put the tender on the track and turn on the transformer to about 12 volts. Get your meter and set it to AC volts on a scale of about 20 volts maximum. Touch the black lead to the outer rail and the red lead to the upper bruch where the wire comes through the floor of the tender from the pickup roller. You should read about 12 volts (same as the transformer voltage). Then put the red lead on the terminal of the relay where the wire comes from the field coil of the motor. You should read about 12 volta again. Then operate the whistle controller or just use a screwdriver to move the armature of the relay up. The voltage on the red lead should go to zero and the whistle motor should be energized. You may need a clip lead or 3rd hand to do this. The voltage from the center rail is connected to the motor all the time. The relay supplies a connection to the outer rails when it is energized. If this fails to energize the motor, connect a wire from the terminal on the relay that goes to the motor field coil, and touch the other end of this wire to the outer rail. 

BTW, the whistle motor does turn, doesn't it?

If all this fails to make the whistle work, you may have some problems with the brushes and/or the commutator may be dirty. Check this and let us know what happens.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Servoguy thanks. I will try that (hopefully tonight.). The motor arm is free and lubed, communicater clean , brushes and brush springs are good. Thanks. I will be reading up on volt meeters soon!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

sjm, nothing beats knowledge. Even though trains are relatively simple, you still need a good amount of knowledge to make them work or to repair them.

You would be ahead if you either draw out the circuit diagram for the whistle or get a diagram on line and stare at until you understand how it works.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

smj, I don't see a wire soldered to the lower brush. There should be a wire on the brush terminal that goes to the field coil.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Its there just hidden. And btw these trains are not so simple. I agree I need to learn more. It just seems the more I learn the less I know! Thanks.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Assuming I did this correctly ( thats asking a lot ) I did read 12v up untill I activated the whistle. Then the number jumped to 17v. I connected the jumper to the outside rail with the meeter hooked up to the feild coil wire and it droped from 12 to 0 without pushing the wistke button. I might just rewire the whole thing in case its a broken wire or loose solder joint. The motor never enguaged.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It appears there is a problem with the whistle motor. Put your meter on the lowest ohm scale you have and start checking continuity. Across the two brushes you should have only a few ohms. Across the field winding (lower brush to terminal on relay), you should have only a few ohms. Check those two. and let us know what you find.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Servoguy, will get to testing soon. I have to read up on my voltage meter. My results on the ohms was off. U ser error most likely. I needed a break, if not one of us (the tender most likely) would not seen another day!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

sjm, you are living the rule that says: "If you know what you are doing, it is easy. If you don't know, it seems impossible." I have been doing engineering for 50 years. Things that were "impossible" 20 years ago are now very simple. I starte repairing my own trains when I was about 10 or 11 years old. The nearest LHS was 115 miles away and this was 1951 or 1952. No chance dad was going to drive me that far to get a loco fixed.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Servoguy. I agree. Nothing is impossible. As I learn more it gets easier. But I also find that I need to know more about the systems im working on. I am by your post younger then you and never had the experience of working on these things. I will learn, and hopefully find them easy in the future. Now , though, its mind numbing.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lower brush to terminal 1.7. Across the brushes I got nothing. I put the ends of the meter on the outside brush covers and on the solder joints (is this correct). The meter doesn't move. My meter may not be accurate as it is a cheaper unit. I followed the instructions and the meter will not zero out. ( might just be bad instructions as the unit seems to work on the wires I tested. )


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chiming in late to the party here. Sorry if this has been asked/answered ...

Does the relay switch metal plate close when power (with DC voltage via whistle controller) is applied? (It's the flat metal plate on a crude pivot underneath the brown-paper wrapped electromagnet coil.)

As a test, raise the plate manually, to close the circuit. With AC power to the track (or tender), does the whistle motor now run?

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Cheap meters don't always go to zero on the low ohms scale. That's OK. The meter is good enough for this job. If you are showing an open circuit between the brushes, there is a problem with the brushes. Are the brushes contacting the commutator? If you turn the armature, does the meter reading change?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When you cleaned the commutator, did you also clean the brushes?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've had a couple of these, one yesterday, where a brush spring is rusted through and the end is missing! No contact, though everything looks OK at a casual inspection.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Definitely must have contact between the brushes and the commutator.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj , the relay switch works fine. Its clean. I even jumped it just in case. Servoguy and grj, the burshes were cleaned and the springs are good. The brushes touch the armature and have good spring action behind them. I will test for voltage when turning the armature. I will also, (tonight or tommorow ) re check everything. Maybe a slight break in the brush I didn't see or something else. I will also check all wires and re solder them. If nothing else it couldn't hurt to have new wires. I akso need practice. I will also check to see if a spring broke. But when I unscrewed the brush plate the brushes were pushed forward by the springs. Thanks everone.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you take the brush plate off, check continuity between the commutator segments. The resistance between any two segments should be the same as the resistance between any other two segments.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Servoguy, will do. I figure opening it up at this point is the best bet. Hopefully after everything is appart the fix will be apparent. Thanks.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm asking dumb/fundamental quesitons here ...

Does the armature / impeller spin freely by hand? It's not mechanicaly jammed, is it?

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

sjm, you are having a good learning experience with this one. We will walk you through it until the cause of the problem is discovered.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj , armature spins nicely, it was even lubricated (judiciously). I will take it apart tommorow. Servoguy, thanks , if it dosent become operational it will be put aside untill I learn the skills to fix it. But I think with everyones help it will work soon.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

sjm, did you check the resistance between the commutator segments?

BTW, it is unlikely the armature is bad. That hardly ever happens.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Servoguy, i'm not entirely sure. But tommorow I will go over the tender from top to bottom. A complete amature overhall. I will use the volt meter on everything before and after. That way I can compare results.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

sjm, don't give up now. You are very close to finding the problem. You probably have one of the following problems: A brush that is not making contact with the brush can; A brush that is not making good contact with the commutator, or a bad armature. Checking the resistance from the commutator segments will tell whether the armature is good or bad.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You might just clean up the whole brush and can with alcohol to make sure nothing is keeping them from making contact.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

servoguy said:


> sjm, don't give up now. You are very close to finding the problem. You probably have one of the following problems: A brush that is not making contact with the brush can; A brush that is not making good contact with the commutator, or a bad armature. Checking the resistance from the commutator segments will tell whether the armature is good or bad.


Agreed to all.

Did he check / confirm that the field coil is OK?

And that test power is being applied / routed in a proper manner ... power into a brush, through armature, out through other brush, through field coil, etc. ???

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I rechecked everthing. I did not rewire everything as the voltage tests came up clean. (Thanks for the help servoguy, I never used one before). I wiped down the armature and brushes again. I took off the grease plate and cleaned around it ( in case something was shortening out across the armature. I checked the connections on the armature itself. I did not get a volt reading from one communicator segment. It did not work. I was about to post bad news but after reading what grj said about the alcohol I decided to blow the whole thing out with contact cleaner and my air compresser. It works I dont know how or why, but it works. Thank you everyone. I was about to put it aside for a bit. Now does anyone have some quick tips for oiling the whistle. ( so I dont miss any thing) I oiled both ends of the armature shaft. Is that all?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

That should be the only two places that need lube. Did you use motor oil?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yes , I stoped the use of lithium grease. I thought it worked good but one time I got some on the communicator plate it made a mess. The oil is easier. And a bit on the plate does not harm it. I will be buying a pin oiler soon.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And servoguy thanks. I would not have tried to use the volt meter without your help. It would have sat in the box.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

sjm, glad to hear you have it all working. Next time, it will be a piece of cake.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Perseverance pays off.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sometimes, a good cleaning and a few soft-spoken "#%@!*&$" words is all it takes!

I'd add a small drop of oil (not grease) to the relay switch plate pivot points, too.

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj , will do. And another thanks all around. I asked for more oiling points because the rig did not sound smooth. A little more oil in the armature shaft fixed that. ( it also needed a bit of time to work in. ) Btw , after getting this one fixed, the next one was trouble shot and fixed within an hour! ( it just needed new wires and trucks!) Good to know I could do it by myself with what I was taught.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Oil the wheels and the coupler. The coupler has 6 oiling points: The knuckle where the latch pin slides on it when the coupler is closed, the rivet that the knuckle is on, Two points where the latch mechanism pivots, and the ends of the flat spring that holds the latch mechanism in the latched position. Oil the bolsters (the bearing that the trucks swivel on.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks servoguy. I actual forgot to clean the trucks.


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