# Best way for beginner to make elevation changes?



## rctoyguy

I'm in the planning stages of a 4'x8' N-Scale layout. I know that I am going to want elevation changes - most likely enough for an "over-under" or two.

I plan to build the bench work out of ~1/2" plywood with the blue foam stuff on top of that.

Am I better off (as a beginner) to try:
1- cutting around the track roadbed and using risers underneath to push up the track areas I want elevated (don't know what that's called - hope it makes sense), or
2- building up the elevations with the foam somehow?
3- use some sort of pre-made inclines.

Opt2 seems to me to be the most difficult to get smooth consistent inclines, opt 3 sounds the most expensive, and opt1 sounds like the easiest way to really screw up.

Any advice or direction to good online examples would be awesome.

I'm anxious to get started on the bench work but figure I need this much planned out before I start.


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## thedoc

rctoyguy said:


> I'm in the planning stages of a 4'x8' N-Scale layout. I know that I am going to want elevation changes - most likely enough for an "over-under" or two.
> 
> I plan to build the bench work out of ~1/2" plywood with the blue foam stuff on top of that.
> 
> Am I better off (as a beginner) to try:
> 1- cutting around the track roadbed and using risers underneath to push up the track areas I want elevated (don't know what that's called - hope it makes sense), or
> 2- building up the elevations with the foam somehow?
> 3- use some sort of pre-made inclines.
> 
> Opt2 seems to me to be the most difficult to get smooth consistent inclines, opt 3 sounds the most expensive, and opt1 sounds like the easiest way to really screw up.
> 
> Any advice or direction to good online examples would be awesome.
> 
> I'm anxious to get started on the bench work but figure I need this much planned out before I start.



I would say option #1 sounds the most reasonable and where one track is passing over another splice the Plywood with a second layer of Plywood and glue and screw it together. After the plywood is set you can start to add the foam and track as you want, just watch the clearance from the upper to the lower track.


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## MtRR75

Whatever you do, make sure that you add easements at the bottom and top of each incline. Easements are lengths of track where the track gradually bends upwards or downwards to transition smoothly from the level track to the inclined track. Sudden changes in slope cause derailment and electrical pick-up issues. Try and avoid track junctions in the easements. It is difficult to keep then from kinking into a sudden incline change.


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## DonR

Mtrr45 has a very important point.

It is not difficult to create the easements using flex track.
Join it to your lower level track a few inches back from the point
where the elevation begins. Then connect it the same way
where your upper elevation levels out. let the flex track find it's
own gradual slopes. Cut foam or other material to support
the resulting riser.

By using the easements you avoid loco front coupler 'hoses'
from digging into the ties, and at the top, permitting the
wheels to all stay on the track.

Don


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## CTValleyRR

In a word, "don't". My single biggest mistake on my "return to hobby" layout was making elevation changes before I understood all the potential pitfalls. Of course, forums like this weren't around back then, either.

So, that said, stay at 2% or less if you can (tricky on a 4x8). If you have mad carpentry skills, try option #1, not otherwise. 

Option #2 is better, but it can be tricky to get smooth transitions and slopes by hand (I spent hours with a rasp getting it "just so").

Option #3 would be my recommendation. Woodland Scenics inclines, or better yet incline starters, are pretty foolproof, and you can mix different grades to achieve an easement. The only drawback is cost.


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## traction fan

*Cookie cutter*



rctoyguy said:


> I'm in the planning stages of a 4'x8' N-Scale layout. I know that I am going to want elevation changes - most likely enough for an "over-under" or two.
> 
> I plan to build the bench work out of ~1/2" plywood with the blue foam stuff on top of that.
> 
> Am I better off (as a beginner) to try:
> 1- cutting around the track roadbed and using risers underneath to push up the track areas I want elevated (don't know what that's called - hope it makes sense), or
> 2- building up the elevations with the foam somehow?
> 3- use some sort of pre-made inclines.
> 
> Opt2 seems to me to be the most difficult to get smooth consistent inclines, opt 3 sounds the most expensive, and opt1 sounds like the easiest way to really screw up.
> 
> Any advice or direction to good online examples would be awesome.
> 
> I'm anxious to get started on the bench work but figure I need this much planned out before I start.


rctoyguy;

The system you describe in option 1 is called "cookie cutter" roadbed. It's been around for years, and is a decent method for a fairly permanent layout. You are wise to avoid it on what will probably be more of an experimental layout. Once you cut the plywood to a certain shape,you can't change the arrangement.

Regards;

Traction Fan


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## Aminnich

I'm not sure if this is what your describing for number one, but this is what I did. 

I took a 1x3 piece of wood. And cut it up into block. First block was 1/4 inch and each block after that increased by 1/8 of an inch, eventually getting me to 4" this way you can change the grade by just changing the distance between the blocks. Closer together- steeper, farther apart- gradual


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## CTValleyRR

Aminnich said:


> I'm not sure if this is what your describing for number one, but this is what I did.
> 
> I took a 1x3 piece of wood. And cut it up into block. First block was 1/4 inch and each block after that increased by 1/8 of an inch, eventually getting me to 4" this way you can change the grade by just changing the distance between the blocks. Closer together- steeper, farther apart- gradual


That's probably more like an option #2 approach, although if you add a solid bed for your grade, it's rhe same idea as option #1.

Option 2 isn't actually as hard as Traction fan suggests. Simply cut a piece of 2x4 wood to a triangle with the hypotenuse of the desired grade, and put a level on top so you know when you're there.

Yes, option 3 is the most expensive, but also the most foolproof. Cost Schedule Quality. Pick any 2.


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## grashley

Grade changes really do add lots of interest.

I bought a "ready to run" layout on e bay. HAHAHAHA
THEIR elevation change was 6% with NO easement. My E8 totally refused, with all 12 wheels off the track.

However you choose to build it, try to stay less than 2% grade ( 2 inches rise in 100 inches, or ¼ inch in 25 inches). Determine the high point, then use a level to measure the height difference to points on the track bed.

I had a foam bed to start with, and used wallboard compound to build and smooth the grade. I added "clumps" at various points and used the level and sandpaper to get correct heights, then filled in the rest from these references. It was a lot of work, but it worked quite well. Easy transitions and usable grades. Flex Track is a must as well.

If you go with the pre made ramps, leave it a little short on top and use the wallboard compound to make a smoother easement. Same at the bottom. Smooth it out from 3 or 4 inches up the ramp to 3 or 4 inches off the ramp. Eliminate the _/ section.


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## CTValleyRR

grashley said:


> Grade changes really do add lots of interest.
> 
> I bought a "ready to run" layout on e bay. HAHAHAHA
> THEIR elevation change was 6% with NO easement. My E8 totally refused, with all 12 wheels off the track.
> 
> However you choose to build it, try to stay less than 2% grade ( 2 inches rise in 100 inches, or ¼ inch in 25 inches). Determine the high point, then use a level to measure the height difference to points on the track bed.
> 
> I had a foam bed to start with, and used wallboard compound to build and smooth the grade. I added "clumps" at various points and used the level and sandpaper to get correct heights, then filled in the rest from these references. It was a lot of work, but it worked quite well. Easy transitions and usable grades. Flex Track is a must as well.
> 
> If you go with the pre made ramps, leave it a little short on top and use the wallboard compound to make a smoother easement. Same at the bottom. Smooth it out from 3 or 4 inches up the ramp to 3 or 4 inches off the ramp. Eliminate the _/ section.


Your experience illustrates my point nicely. I had the same experience you did, although I was using an Alco PA, a Pacific, and a GE E33.

What you suggest using wallboard compound can be done using any building material (plaster & Sculptamold, just to name 2). Another technique is to use Incline Starters, and use the next size down from your main grade (IOW, if your grade is 2%, lay the 1st 6" or so with 1%, and so on).


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## grashley

My comment on wallboard compound was because that is what I used. Plaster would be the same except you mix your own. Sculptamold is GREAT STUFF but the finish is not always as smooth. That said, smooth really does not matter on roadbed which will be covered unless it makes the track uneven. Use what works for you!!


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## scaleddown

A lot of HO layouts are on 4' x 8' bench work boards. Has anyone dealt with any 5' x 8' boards for a layout. I would think 2 feet to reach center is acceptable, but is a 30" arm reach to center too much for handling track, landscaping, etc. The reason for a 5' x 8' is to allow for a section of 22 inch radius track and a better elevation climb so that a 2% grade is not too short of a span. Any thoughts?


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## MtRR75

Of course it depends on the length of your arms. But it also depends on: (1) what is in the center strip of the table, and (2) how well protected the edges are.

As for what is in the center strip, try to keep turnouts and tunnels out of that zone. That's where derailments are more likely. Try and put stable scenery in that zone -- and build your scenery from the center out, so that you don't have to reach over completed scenery to build new scenery.

As for protecting the edges, I have 3" high plexiglas around my edges -- mainly keep trains from diving to the floor. But it also helps protect the edge of the layout when I reach over to the center.


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## grashley

MtRR75 said:


> Of course it depends on the length of your arms. But it also depends on: (1) what is in the center strip of the table, and (2) how well protected the edges are.
> 
> As for what is in the center strip, try to keep turnouts and tunnels out of that zone. That's where derailments are more likely. Try and put stable scenery in that zone -- and build your scenery from the center out, so that you don't have to reach over completed scenery to build new scenery.
> 
> As for protecting the edges, I have 3" high plexiglas around my edges -- mainly keep trains from diving to the floor. But it also helps protect the edge of the layout when I reach over to the center.


X2 Scenery in the center would work very well. Once completed, little need to touch it again.


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## scaleddown

Thanks for the quick responses. So far, plan is direct track with no drama designed around it. Question #2: Recommended minimum height (in inches) of lower part of bridge structure crossing over track below ~ top of rail to bottom of bridge. Goal is to try to accommodate various engine heights. Thanks, in advance, for your input.


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## MtRR75

Here are the NMRA Standard clearances

http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-7_2012.02.pdf

Note that there are three different sets of clearances, depending on the era that you are modeling -- train cars got taller and longer throughout history.

Also note that the height clearances are from the TOP OF THE RAILS to the TOP OF THE TUNNEL OPENING (or the underside of the bridge). So you also have to account for the thickness of your track and your roadbed (the cork strips) below your track when constructing your layout.


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## CTValleyRR

grashley said:


> My comment on wallboard compound was because that is what I used. Plaster would be the same except you mix your own. Sculptamold is GREAT STUFF but the finish is not always as smooth. That said, smooth really does not matter on roadbed which will be covered unless it makes the track uneven. Use what works for you!!


If I want smooth Sculptamold, I just take a sanding block to it. It sands really nicely. An even easier way is just to smooth it with the back of a spoon as it is drying. Wetting the surface with wet water keeps it from sticking to the spoon.


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## grashley

MtRR75 said:


> Here are the NMRA Standard clearances
> 
> http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-7_2012.02.pdf
> 
> Note that there are three different sets of clearances, depending on the era that you are modeling -- train cars got taller and longer throughout history.
> 
> Also note that the height clearances are from the TOP OF THE RAILS to the TOP OF THE TUNNEL OPENING (or the underside of the bridge). So you also have to account for the thickness of your track and your roadbed (the cork strips) below your track when constructing your layout.


Save this link on your computer somewhere. As you build, you will refer back to it often.


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## bluenavigator

Thanks for the link! I have the HO gauge. I am more likely to use all diesel locos. That would be modern. Meaning that the clearance would be 3 5/32" from the lowest point of the bridge to the table, just at the point where track bed is set at? Because I think that E dimension is for the height from table to the rail where the wheels will be rolling on, am I right?


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## MtRR75

bluenavigator said:


> Thanks for the link! I have the HO gauge. I am more likely to use all diesel locos. That would be modern. Meaning that the clearance would be 3 5/32" from the lowest point of the bridge to the table, just at the point where track bed is set at? Because I think that E dimension is for the height from table to the rail where the wheels will be rolling on, am I right?


My understanding is that the 3 5/32" is from the lowest point of the bridge to the top of the rails. Track rails come in different heights (code 100, code 83, etc.), and roadbed comes in different thicknesses. Some layouts don't use roadbed; track is laid directly on the plywood or foam. So it is up to you to make those additional calculations.

The narrow part at the bottom of the diagrams is where the car wheels are. Car wheels have always been the same width since standardization (sometime in the late 19th century). But car bodies, which do not go all he way down to the track, keep getting wider.


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## grashley

MtRR75 said:


> Here are the NMRA Standard clearances
> 
> http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-7_2012.02.pdf
> 
> Note that there are three different sets of clearances, depending on the era that you are modeling -- train cars got taller and longer throughout history.
> 
> Also note that the height clearances are from the TOP OF THE RAILS to the TOP OF THE TUNNEL OPENING (or the underside of the bridge). So you also have to account for the thickness of your track and your roadbed (the cork strips) below your track when constructing your layout.


NO! The height is from the top of the track! Many tunnel portals or bridge abutments need raised to track height before installation to allow proper clearance!


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## MtRR75

grashley said:


> NO! The height is from the top of the track! Many tunnel portals or bridge abutments need raised to track height before installation to allow proper clearance!


I think we are saying the same thing. Aren't we? I said measure from the top of the "rails". You said from the top of the "track". BlueNavigator misinterpreted the NMRA diagram (which is easy do if you are not familiar with it).


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## CTValleyRR

Ok, I'll bite. What is your definition of "top of the track" if not the top of the rails?

Clearance is clearance. Period. You don't need to raise anything to track height per se. You have to make sure you have the right vertical clearance. Period. If the bridge or tunnel portal that you are using doesn't give you that clearance, then you have to raise it until you do. Maybe that's track height, maybe not.


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## scaleddown

Thanks for the knowledge and the support, gentlemen. I will use caution before I glue/nail anything down.


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## grashley

Yes, we are all saying the same thing. SOME bridges / portals will be high enough to be mounted on the table, and still have sufficient clearance above the rails/track. Many others will not have excess clearance, and must be raised to track/rail height to allow proper clearance. Measure and know for sure!


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## bluenavigator

Best advice - measure twice before cut. Do that before too late.


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## farrout

My first layout, about 30 years ago, was an N scale on a 4x8 plywood. I found a layout in some book, don't remember which one, that had a piece cut out of the middle of one side and flipped over and mounted in one corner to proved multi layer. It was a pretty good design with a modified dog bone layout as the main line.


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