# Lionel ZW Variations



## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Hello
I am currently fixing up 2 ZWs that need some help. I was about to order some new circuit breakers when I though it might be a good idea to order one for my fathers that I use on my layout.
Problem is: The 2 I am fixing up are the 275 watts which I know how to do, but my father's is a 250 Watt from 48-49.
Does anyone have experience with this model? 
thanks


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

For the most part all ZWs Werther 275 or 250 watts are electrically the same. Lionel fiddled with the calculation of wattage to find another 25 watts for bragging rights over American Flyer. All ZWs should use the same internal breaker part.

During the Korean war correct circuit breakers were not available for the similar VW so Lionel substituted a resistance winding.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

The 250 looks like there is a diode where the breaker is...... would that make sense?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I have been looking at prior posts regarding circuit breaker control with the ZW especially running new trains. I quickly got confused. I know the concept but I do not know what to get.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

The internal breaker is part no. ZW-232. It's a very common replacement part.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I was looking at these auto reset 10 amp breakers.
Would these work well?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd probably consider something a bit higher in rating, the ZW should be able to put out around 12-13 amps. I believe the original breaker was a 15A unit.

Note that the breaker is only there to protect the transformer from shorts, not to protect anything connected to it.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ok this is where I am very confused  andI appreciate the patience

The original breaker of 15 amps was designed to protect the transformer and not the trains. I thought that a lower amp breaker was needed to rectify that situation.. 
I found this thread that said he used the 10 amp breakers on each channel

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=14195&highlight=circuit+braker


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The difference is, you size the external breakers for each load, be it 6A, 8A, 10A, etc. However, the breaker in the transformer is in the common return and limits the TOTAL current from all outputs. So, if you have two outputs that are each being loaded at 6A, the transformer should have the capacity to handle it. However, with a 10A breaker in the common, it'll trip and you will end up getting a maximum of around 170-180 watts. The ZW should be able to deliver about 220-230 watts at the outputs. The 275 is an input power rating on old PW transformers, so there's the transformer efficiency to consider.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ok that makes perfect sense. Thanks for explaining. 
Now with the internal circuit breaker being normal, I want the track to trip sooner if there is a derailment. That is where the external 6, 8, 10 amp breakers come in? How do i know what amp breaker I would need or want?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You have to pick the track feed breakers based on the largest current draw you expect on an individual track. For conventional running, that would logically be one lighted passenger train as a rule. To determine the current required, I have a clamp-on AC ammeter handy.

Clamp-on Ammeter at HF


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Lets say I do not have a clamp-on AC ammeter handy. 
What would a typical lighted passenger train give out in amps?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I tried various values and settled on 7 amp breakers.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can buy a clamp on meter at Harbor Freight cheap.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the help
Would this get me what I want?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Circuit-Bre...uit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item3a5ea6d4ef

The clamp on meter will be in my cart next trip out!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You probably don't need 10 of them, but that's an 8 amp breaker, probably a good compromise.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Is it OK that they are 24V? 
As you can tell electricity isn't my strength hwell:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No problem with the voltage, you're sensing current here.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the help
I bought em...I could use 4 of them right off the bat and it was cheaper to buy this lot than 4 singles... There is always plans for expansion!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I just wanted to make sure my circuit breaker protection is correct:

My layout consists of 3 independent tracks (2 O gauge and 1 Standard gauge) and a line for accessories. I use a common ground for all 4 lines (BUS wiring). Everything is connected to my ZW (From Left to right: O gauge line, Standard Gauge line, accessories, and O gauge line). 

I have 7 amp breakers on each line. They are connected as follows:









Now the question:
When I am running multiple lines at once, and I throw some screws on one of the lines, between the time I throw them on and the time the breaker kicks, my trains on the other lines slow down.
Is this normal or is it because I used a common ground??
Thanks!


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

You should have the U connection tied to all the outer rails. I put the breaker in series with the A, B, C, or D terminals connected to the center rails. If you wire the breaker as shown into the U common return when the breaker pops everything will cease or you will get funny 'sneak paths'. If you have the center rails for the three tracks separated and all pulling through their own breaker then if one of the tracks shorts the rest of the layout will keep running.

You should also check the specs. of the breaker. You are looking for the trip delay time, if any. Some breakers are designed to hesitate longer before tripping in case their is a transient.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The diagram there is obviously drawn for a transformer like the 1033 that has the U posts as the "hot" lead and the A post as the track outside rail common. The ZW, as mentioned above, isn't wired that way, the U posts are common.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I believe I have it wired correctly. When a breaker does kick, the rest of the trains go on their merry way.. it is just that 3 seconds where everything drops in voltage. 
These are the breakers I have

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/T9-711C-7/486-2401-ND/1650987


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if you have them wired in the U post lead to the track, you do not have them wired the right way.  They may be working if the outside tracks are totally isolated, but they should be in the A, B, C, D leads from a ZW.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I drew a picture of how I have it wired


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, that's right, but the breakers are in the A,B,C,D, not the U as previously mentioned in the drawing you posted.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I hope my drawing will help thousands! :laugh::thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hellgate said:


> I hope my drawing will help thousands! :laugh::thumbsup:


And why not.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Does that mean I can copy it?!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Yep its for the world to see!


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