# with or without roadbed



## matt (Jan 24, 2010)

Ive been watching many videos on model railroads trying to take in as much info and ideas as i can and ive noticed that not many people use track with the road bed built in. Ive never built a real layout so I was wondering why? Could you guys please explain the pros and cons to the various different styles of track? If this has already been explained, I appologize.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

if you talking about integrated roadbed track:
only fixed radii available, cannot be cut to size easily, expensive, proprietary 

pros: can be easily put together and then put back into box when done playing


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Matt, for my old AF stuff, there's tons of track and roadbed still around. Even at 50+ years old, it's still about $2.50/length plus shipping for the rubber roadbed, or $3.50/length in the LHS. For a good-sized layout, that's around $240. In return, you get sound-deadening and a realistic look that's not so realistic-looking. Neat, cookie-cutter mounds under your tracks does not have the variation normal in railroad track; moreover, the first thing people do to try to improve on it is add ballast to cover it up, again. Tankist gave you a very good, concise list of what the pros and cons are. Personally, I like the sound of trains and don't like the look of that rubber stuff. The cork looks nice, but too neat and regular for me. I imagine that, when I finally get to throw mine together, I'll put down sheet-cork cut to length and shape. The advantage is that the cork glues well to the foam base, and the track to the cork. After that, ballast that will have the irregular, sloppy look of a conventional train's bed.

An afterthought...I'll probably try to stain the cork dark brown with an irregular black smear down the middle. Old earth, and trains drip oil. I'll probably drizzle a lil black stain down the middle of the ballast for the same reason.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey matt...I imagine there are pro's and con's with different types of track. I have not used the track with road bed built in. I would not be opposed to using it though, especially if one doesn't mind the fixed radii (like tank said). I would think it would be a great option if you don't like to take time to ballast track.

I have always used code 100 flextrack. It affords you the freedom to lay it however you like. I actually lay mine down without roadbed (nailed directly to the plywood beneath). I still ballast it with a fine "play sand" that is not even glued down. I do this so it is easy to make a change if I should choose. I simply vacuum up the sand, and I can make changes to the track easily. I would say the different types of track definitely come down to personal preference.

Chad


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## matt (Jan 24, 2010)

thanks guys


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> Hey matt...I imagine there are pro's and con's with different types of track. I have not used the track with road bed built in. I would not be opposed to using it though, especially if one doesn't mind the fixed radii (like tank said). I would think it would be a great option if you don't like to take time to ballast track.
> 
> I have always used code 100 flextrack. It affords you the freedom to lay it however you like. I actually lay mine down without roadbed (nailed directly to the plywood beneath). I still ballast it with a fine "play sand" that is not even glued down. I do this so it is easy to make a change if I should choose. I simply vacuum up the sand, and I can make changes to the track easily. I would say the different types of track definitely come down to personal preference.
> 
> Chad


Hey Chad,

I don't have anything meaningful to add because this is all new to me, except to say that I really like your idea, and have never cared for the look of raised roadbeded tracks.

Greg


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Greg...I suppose one advantage to the raised roadbed track is that it might keep more debris and obstructions off the track. I would think engines could get tipped on their side if they should happen to derail though. I would think arguments can be made for or against almost anything.

Chad


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

I have not seen very many roadbeds not raised to some degree. The modeler can always scenic the surrounding area higher. In modeling, it's all about perception and there are many tricks to make the eye see what you want it to see.

In the REAL world, tracks were raised for drainage. Nothing worse than a "soggy" track. Without a dry substrate the track would just sink in the mud, commonly known as a "washout". In some areas where laying the track somewhat above the natural lay of the land could not be achieved, deep broad ditches were dug to carry off the water of rain and melting snow.

I use cork roadbed. It helps to deaden the sound and provides a nice base for the track and ballast. Some use a foam roadbed, thinner profile than cork, though, personally, I don't like working with it.

In the old days of the hobby, wood strips were used. That must have been a tough way to go. And not much sound deadening as the sound would just "couple with the strips and be magnified by the sheet board used as a base.

Bob


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I've seen some of those old how-to articles, Bob. "First, get a ping-pong table. Now, go buy some 1 x 4's and bevel the edges on a 30-degree angle. For curves, start chopping angled cuts and piecing them together. Now, nail them all to the table: ta-da!!! Roadbed! Paint it brown, green or white, nail your tracks to it and fire up those trains!"


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

I've actually seen a couple of OLD layouts that used wood as a road bed. The road bed looked to be ripped down to about 1/4". I don't know whether a band saw or table saw was used, either way, I'd bet a few fingers got chopped off or at least gashed badly.

I'm glad the hobby has progressed from the days of massive blood-letting.

Bob


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Bob...you bring up some good points! I completely understand why real railroads have elevated roadbeds. I assume the ballast they use helps to keep the track in place to some degree, while also providing some drainage benefits.

I really DO like the look of an elevated roadbed...I just didn't like creating one. In one of my first attempts at a railroad, I did use the cork roadbed. I made a big mistake though. As a beginner, I didn't really take any time to plot out a nice radius on the curves. I had at least one area that was a little tight for the locos. At this point, I had already glued down the roadbed, so that made tweaking the track tough. Trying to scrape up and salvage roadbed is tough to do w/o ruining it. Obviously, if I would use cork roadbed now, I would plot out nice curves first. 

To sum it up, I guess I just wanted the ability to make changes easily. I have not made a lot of changes, but I did add on to my layout about a year ago, and I was SO GLAD I didn't have things too permanent. Don't get me wrong, I like the method you guys describe of ballasting with a white glue mix on top of cork roadbed. I just didn't want to be that permanent, especially a guy like me who is prone to errors!

Chad


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Chad,

Just keep in mind---the final arbitrator in your railroad's world is you. Whatever works for you is what defines "the right way".


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Reck! Looks like another good day to talk about trains! Yes, you are right! I try to keep that advice in mind, even when what makes sense to me doesn't always...well...make sense! I guess we all try to find methods that work for us. I wouldn't recommend that anyone follow my path...I am too UNethical...he he!

Chad


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> Bob...you bring up some good points! I completely understand why real railroads have elevated roadbeds. I assume the ballast they use helps to keep the track in place to some degree, while also providing some drainage benefits.
> 
> I really DO like the look of an elevated roadbed...I just didn't like creating one. In one of my first attempts at a railroad, I did use the cork roadbed. I made a big mistake though. As a beginner, I didn't really take any time to plot out a nice radius on the curves. I had at least one area that was a little tight for the locos. At this point, I had already glued down the roadbed, so that made tweaking the track tough. Trying to scrape up and salvage roadbed is tough to do w/o ruining it. Obviously, if I would use cork roadbed now, I would plot out nice curves first.
> 
> ...


I share your view on changeability, especially since I've never modeled a layout. I'm going to use small dots of clear silicone under the track to fasten it instead of nails so I can simply peel it back up with a putty knife *when* (*not if*) I need to change it. I'm not willing to paint myself into a corner until I have a better handle on what I'm doing.

Greg


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Greg...I have heard that the white glue/water mix applied to ballast can become "as hard as asphalt." As long as one has planned things out carefully, and doesn't anticipate changing the plan down the road, then this method is a great way to go. I just don't trust myself...I am always second guessing and like the freedom to "change my mind."

Chad


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## bradimous1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I am starting out with the Atlas True Track, but plan on moving to a cork roadbed. With the attached roadbeds, can you change elevations at all?


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Brad...when you say "change elevations," I assume you mean to have your tracks climb a grade. If that is what you mean, I would think that might be a little tough...unless you could start a grade on a 3' long piece. I don't even think True-Track comes in 3' lengths. I think Bachmann E-Z Track does though. I don't have any knowledge about the roadbed-style track. Maybe someone else can help you on that one.

Chad


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Brad and Chad, I've never seen Bachmann EZ Track in 3' sections. I didn't know it existed. I will need to look for it as my "alternate track" is laid with EZ track. 

A rise in elevation can be done, but one needs to be VERY careful. A 1% grade, or less, would be best, and most practical. Be careful not to break the "catches" on each section and would stay away from having to change elevations on a curve, for good measure.

Bob


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## TulsaFlyer (Sep 21, 2009)

I have become partial to the Life Like Power Loc track. (Built in roadbed)
So here's what I can tell you through my experience.

First of all, it's easy to work with.(And I'm basicly lazy, so that works for me. ) I have been experimenting with painting a few pieces of my track and it doesn't look too bad.

Second, it needs to be mounted on foam, or rubber mat. Because on wood.....it's noisy!!

Lastly, it can be elevated. Most makers of the built in roadbed track make trestles for their track. I have even experimented with making a helix with some of mine.

That's about it.

Jody


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Bob and Jody...

Bob, great advice, as always! I don't have any grades on my layout, but if I did, I would try not to exceed 1% like you said (for roadbed track). I don't even think I would exceed 2% with ordinary flextrack. I like to occasionally pull a long train.

Jody, I am lazy as well, and I would use track w/built-in roadbed. My layout is about 12x26...so the flextrack allowed me to make some curves that I could not with a built-in roadbed. If I had a smaller layout, I would not be opposed to using it at all.

Oh Bob, I just looked at a couple sites that had Bachmann E-Z Track in 3' lengths. They also offer a lot of different radii too. If I were to build it all over again, I would maybe consider doing even a big layout with the E-Z Track, as it really isn't that much more than the flextrack. Ok, maybe it is a few dollars more, but...hey...you get built-in roadbed!

Chad


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## bradimous1 (Mar 3, 2010)

It is interesting to hear you all speak about track with built in roadbeds. I assumed that model train purists would be highly against track with built in roadbed as it takes some of the work out of it. That being said, I have no basis for this assumption or have never heard anyone say anything like it before.


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Purists(read rivet counters) are but a minority in the hobby. Here's my take on it. If it is what you can afford(maybe just a beginning point to gain some experience), makes you happy and proud, goes 'round and 'round, maybe not high end equipment(again, a starting point), it's all good with me. 

My layout would awe many, no doubt. But, with my 50 years in the hobby, and the 12 years letting the beast evolve(please notice I did not say "under construction" or "building") it should be. I have friends that collect TYCO, Model Power, etc. These layouts are not to the extreme that mine happens to be. So, what!!!!! I have some old Bachmann and Mantua/Tyco engines that we run on their layouts. It give me such pleasure to be able to rub elbows, drink coffee or have a beer, and just plain sit around and shoot the **** with these guys. Trains is trains.

I have a layout here that is Bachmann EZ track, I lay it out on the floor. The BIG layout is a 5 hour drive away. This 2nd house is rather small and no way could I have the other layout here. No need for two large layouts. This one serves its purpose of giving me a test bed for repaired cars and engines, additions and such I do over the winter, as well as a nice diversion and keeping me in tune with my passion.

The point being, it matters not where you are in the hobby. Beginner, novice, or an old timer like me, owner of nothing but brass or a collector of Tyco and such, we are just grown men that like to play with trains. It does matter, at least to me, that you are a part of it.

Bob


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Bob / Stationmaster ...

Those are Gold Medal words above ... VERY nicely said !!!

TJ


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## bradimous1 (Mar 3, 2010)

thanks Bob!!! I hope nobody took what I said the wrong way, as I mentioned, I will be getting my set today and it has Atlas True Track.


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Brad, let me know when it's up and running. I'll drink a "cyber" beer with ya. You gotta buy your own though. Massachusetts to too far to drive from Indiana or I'd drop by with a "6". 

bob


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

bradimous1: there's nothing wrong with built-in roadbed. If you like it, use it and the ones who don't like it can go pound sand. *L* The only seriously-important rule about how a layout looks is this: it's your layout, so your opinon is right and everyone else is wrong if they disagree with you.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Bob and Reck....GREAT ADVICE again as usual! When I built my layout, I did it with one (and ONLY ONE) idea in mind...I just wanted to watch trains go around! Oh sure, I added some structures and some scenery, as I chose. So what is my goal today? Well, it is as it was in the beginning....I still just wanna watch trains go around! 

Well said, boys!

Chad


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

stationmaster said:


> Purists(read rivet counters) are but a minority in the hobby. Here's my take on it. If it is what you can afford(maybe just a beginning point to gain some experience), makes you happy and proud, goes 'round and 'round, maybe not high end equipment(again, a starting point), it's all good with me.
> 
> My layout would awe many, no doubt. But, with my 50 years in the hobby, and the 12 years letting the beast evolve(please notice I did not say "under construction" or "building") it should be. I have friends that collect TYCO, Model Power, etc. These layouts are not to the extreme that mine happens to be. So, what!!!!! I have some old Bachmann and Mantua/Tyco engines that we run on their layouts. It give me such pleasure to be able to rub elbows, drink coffee or have a beer, and just plain sit around and shoot the **** with these guys. Trains is trains.
> 
> ...


Hi Bob,

Your comment about grown men who like to play with trains brought a smile to my face... thanks. 

Greg


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> Hey Greg...I have heard that the white glue/water mix applied to ballast can become "as hard as asphalt." As long as one has planned things out carefully, and doesn't anticipate changing the plan down the road, then this method is a great way to go. I just don't trust myself...I am always second guessing and like the freedom to "change my mind."
> 
> Chad


Thanks for the glue warning mr x... and your neat tip on vacuuming ballast. I probably won't go past the loose ballast stage as I'm most interested in layout designs, and so will be having fun laying track and running all different sorts of layouts. Thank God for the internet where there are hundreds of design ideas to pore over. 

Greg


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Greg...Yea, if you are considering re-vamping your layout down the road to try a different configuration, then you just might want to do a minimal job putting down your track. I have read where some guys will make a winter scene and sprinkle it with baking soda, I believe. It looks VERY real! Then they simply just vacuum it up when they want it to be spring again. I guess in that case everything would have to be glued down well beneath the "snow."

i hope you find a layout design that works for you!

Chad


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Chad, I got my very first train 50 years ago, exactly, this past Christmas. Imagine the thrill of being 6 years old and finding a train set under the tree. 

In my 50 years, I've seen many things come and go, some stayed. I've seen layouts of every description, every price range, every era known to railroading. People running brass, people having Athearn Blue Box, to those with Model Power. Each had one single thread in common....they were running trains. It is too bad that some seem to flaunt prosperity, theirs, and look down their noses at those less financially blessed. 

My first layout was the floor(wasn't everybody's), then came the ubiquitous and well known 4x8 sheet of plywood(we've all had those. As much a part of the hobby as the trains themselves.). I've been through no less than 4 layouts since. Most were L-girder construction. Stiff and not at all versatile or conducive to changes or moving. Through the years, each new layout had me creating something larger and of a more complex operation with more and more detail. Just seems to be a natural evolution for a modeler. Now I have a huge operational yard ((22) "ladders", two "sub" yards(6-8 "ladders" each), industrial switching, and many other neat deals including a roundhouse, turntable, and transfer table. It even has occupancy detection sensors placed in various places that operate the signals. It actually started out as a diorama, believe that or not. It has since grown, or should I say "evolved", to what it is now. At my age, it is definitely my last layout and my "piece de resistance"(that's French, by the way). The only thing it lacks is total computer control, which, by the way, could be added. 

That is why you will never hear me describe my layout as finished, "under construction", or "being built" but rather "evolving". It seems to be in constant flux, though the casual observer would never know.

So, if it runs on track, jumps the rail occasionally, throws a spark or two at bad connections, it has to be fun. Adding structures, realistic operation, multiple lines and engines, DCC, it only exacerbates the aura. Matters not if you have $50 in it or $150,000, you are still "playin' with trains". Gotta love it!!!!

An add here. There's only one thing I like as much as trains...............fishin'. In fact, I've solved many a train problem wettin' a line. But, I have yet to catch a fish playin' with trains. And that's a fact.

Bob


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

What do you fish for, Bob? I spent a big part of my childhood hauling bleugill (that's french for bluegill!) and crappie out of ponds; later, bass and more crappie from boats.


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Bluegill, crappie, bass, walleye, pike.....if they are bitin', I'm catchin'. I actually like pike. Most don't because of the Y-bones. I had an old guy teach me many years ago how to remove them. Just like a zipper. Might leave a few, but not many. They be slimy critters though. The grandson calls 'em "toothy critters". lol

Bob


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Fishin is goooooooooooooooooooood. When I was in my teens, I'd go with my buddies. Get to the lake at dawn with our tackle, a pound of bacon, a loaf of bread and an empty coffee can with some powdered coffee and plastic cups. Rent a john-boat and get out on the water. When we got hungry enough, we'd pull up on a shale-and-limestone 'beach' start a fire and get some lake water boiling in the coffee can for coffee. Find a big, flat piece of shale and bridge over the fire with it, then use it to fry the bacon. Bacon sandwiches and black coffee---what a breakfast!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Bob,
That reminded me of something...I assume your lake has carp. A lot of people throw them back because they have a reputation for being too difficult to clean. I had an old man teach me a way to use fresh cow-pies, though, to cook them in a fire that makes them really easy to deal with. Eevr tried it?


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Reckers.I have a "fish-ball" recipe, kinda like a cheese ball, made with carp that is mind-blowing. You wouldn't thinks so, but it is. Grab some dinner crackers, like Ritz, Club crackers, and have at it. Grab a cold beer while you're at it.

My Granddad lived on a river. Did much the same. Just grab the tackle box, a pole(with the customary Zebco 33), and some worms and head down the hill. Some fond memories of a much less stressful time. Things were so much simpler then.

Bob


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

since this thread taken on fishing discussion i'll join in 
fishing is awesome. but i think boating is just to involved, we fish from shore, carp mostly. at a times we cook the fish right there . recepie is dead simple - cleaned fish put on a stick vertically near small campfire and turned as time goes. only needs salt, doesn't take long, steamy and tasty. can't wait untill it warms up, sheeesh, need to start melting and casting the weights (we use our own design)


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Sounds great, Anton. The recipe I learned was based on two things: Carp is supposed to be very hard to clean (bones), and pastures with cow pies (fresh manure) tend to be plentiful around lakes, down here. It works like this: you gather a large quantity of fresh cow pies. Build a good sized fire---you want a bed of coals. Wash the carp well, then begin packing the cow pies around it. The idea is to completely enclose the fish in a thick layer of manure. Once it's completely wrapped, head to tail, gently lay it on the bed of coals. 
Let it bake like this for about 1 hour for a 5-pounder, less for a smaller fish. Keep heaping the coals up around it to ensure lots of heat. Once the hour is up, very carefully nudge the fish off the fire and let it cool down for about 20 minutes.

After that, break it open, throw away the carp and eat the cow pies. The carp is still too hard to clean.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

reckers said:


> after that, break it open, throw away the carp and eat the cow pies. The carp is still too hard to clean.


rofl!!!

ADD:
hard? as my sergeant in basic was saying "hard? yes. but doable"
to tasty to pass up


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## bradimous1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I was just about to say that we used to make a roast in coals similar to that, except we would use salt and mustard to encase the roast instead of a cow pie... then I read the last sentence... good stuff


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Reckers ...

You had me going on that recipe there for a while ... hook, line, and sinker. I thought to myself, "These guys can't possibly be serious?!?"

But, I'm an East Coast boy, mind you ... I always get a bit skeptical when talkin' to anyone who's from west of Jersey!

TJ


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Bob and Reck...how do we go from talkin' roadbed to talkin' fishing? Everyone must have a little cabin fever after this winter! I love your wit!

Bob, funny you mentioned jumping track and throwing sparks. I had a Dash 8 derail at a turnout and cause a short today. That same train got its rear truck wedged in between another turnout at about the point of the frog. Stopped the darn thing DEAD in its tracks. It even caused the covering under the gears of the truck to come off. It still seems to run fine. Oh well, at least I saw that it had good lubrication in the gears!


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Fishing can wast a good day of boating


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## matt (Jan 24, 2010)

stationmaster said:


> Brad and Chad, I've never seen Bachmann EZ Track in 3' sections. I didn't know it existed. I will need to look for it as my "alternate track" is laid with EZ track.
> 
> A rise in elevation can be done, but one needs to be VERY careful. A 1% grade, or less, would be best, and most practical. Be careful not to break the "catches" on each section and would stay away from having to change elevations on a curve, for good measure.
> 
> Bob


wholesaletrains.com has the biggest and cheapest selection of E-Z track that ive come across and they do offer 3' sections in grey


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I believe the black is steel alloy track, and the grey is nickel-silver.


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