# Post War 671 Help/Advice Sought



## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Hello all - I am making my first foray into postwar Lionel trains with a purchase of my first Pennsy S2 Turbine. 

Got one off eBay for what I think was a pretty decent deal - and according to this site LIONEL TRAINS 671 LOCOMOTIVE it's a "Variation E" type manufactured in or around 1948. 

I plan to add a LED backup light kit to the tender, as according to the sellers pictures, the holes appear to already be drilled out anyways. 

I cant copy the pictures from the auction, but the locomotive will need a bit of work. 
Mainly, it is missing its front pick-up roller assembly. The seller swears up and down that it runs, and it is coming from a hobby store, so I am willing to take his word for it, but I would still like to replace that assembly. 

I am sure that there will be some other things that need fixing as well, and I plan to pick up the Greenbergs repair manual (which one I need would be helpful if anyone knows - I realize where I am, so I know that is a silly question - lol) so I can try to do as much of it myself as I can. 

Anyways - I will post pictures when I receive the locomotive - I am very excited as I have wanted this particular engine for a while now.

Once I do, any wisdom that y'all can offer would be much appreciated! This is my first crack at something like this so I will be taking it low and slow and hopefully leaning heavily on this thread for advice!

Thanks guys!


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Here's a link to get you started. http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-47.htm

I own a 681, shortly going to restore it, needs a lot of work, rear truck & drawbar missing, collector plate and rollers missing and more. I do know mine runs at least. Very nice engines, made from a one of one locomotive that was deemed a failure in life.

Carl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Is this the locomotive?

From here,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-671-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



















From his description nothing is mentioned about the pickup missing?
Though you should see it from the pictures.
Ask for $$$$ back? $10/$20? 
He should have added that in the description. :smokin:
Did you ask him about the missing one? It will work with just one but it is not right.

It looks like the whole piece just screws on, you will have to solder a wire. Or else you can just replace the missing Pu roller itself.

The LED's should work with no problems.









This is the book you want, I have the 7th edition I think the earlier ones are just about the same. The newer editions might have a little something added but it would be about tracks plans or something like that.

There is a manual like this K line. It is just about the same thing as the other, I found a few different things in it but really it is the same.








Whatever you choose watch the prices. 
I have seen the K line go for $75. The Greensberg too.

Amazon has one for $20 you won't find it much cheaper.
http://www.amazon.com/Greenbergs-Repair-Operating-Manual-1945-1969/dp/0897784553

Good deal, $20 bucks and if you get something else shipping is for free.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

That is the one actually :-/
I didn't get a good deal? 

How easy would it be to replace it? I'm assuming that train tender will have the parts I need judging from some of the other threads and soldering is no big deal. 

I just hope this doesn't turn into too much of a headache - lol

I did notice the missing PU roller right away though and asked the seller about it - he acknowledged that it was missing but didn't offer any money off as he still claims it runs - even though I KNOW it won't run correctly without the fwd roller. 

But it's vintage and used and I knew I could get the part so I decided to go ahead anyways - hopefully it wasn't a bad idea. 


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I never had a 671 but from the picture the whole roller assembly looks to just screw on?

The hardest part would be the soldering if you never soldered before. If you get a whole new piece I would replace the collector insulator #671-186 along with it. If you get the book it shows all of this in it. If my scanner worked I would post a picture. The whole piece is part # 671-105 $9.
Just the roller is #671-109, with the collector rivet #671-107, and the spring 671-108.

Jeff doesn't list some of these numbers but that is not to say he doesn't have them or another number would take it's place. Best to call him he likes to talk trains.
Before you order see if there are any other items that you would need to save on the shipping. Go through the bulk list there are a lot of things that work on different cars which are good to have in the parts box. There are clips and washers and other things that Lionel used on a bunch of stuff. It is cheaper to get them from the bulk list. That is if you plan on working on rolling stock? I could write up a few of the common ones later if you want.
Jeff vacuum packs each part and labels them so you can just throw them in your parts box for future use.


Jeff should have it. He lists from here, http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html

671-EDW	white electronic adhes decals *pair 2.50	
671-EDG	green electronic adhes decals *pair 2.50	
671-EDGR	gray electronic adhes decals *pair 2.50	
671-EDBR	brown electronic adhes decals *pair 2.50	
671-EDY	yellow electronic adhes decals *pai 2.50	
671-EDO	dk orange electr adhes decals *pr* 2.50	
671-EDGLO	light orange elect adhes decals *pr 2.50	
671-EDR	red electronic adhes decals *pair 2.50	
671-3U	original boiler for restoration 15.00	
671-6	handrail RH new Lionel 1.25	
671-7	handrail LH new Lionel 1.25	
671-20	axle bushing 0.75	
671-21	driver wheel axle swaged 1.50	
671-25	driver wheel axle plain 1.25	
671-32	rear apron (steps) 2.50	Picture
671-33	cup washer 0.60	
671-62	orig smoke box cover assy LIMITED 20.00	
671-66	smoke lamp only (14v) reproduction 5.00	
671-81	rear truck drawbar rivet 0.75	
671-84	flangeless wheel turbine trk LIMIT 0.60	
671-85	axle retainer 1.00	
671-86	pilot/trailer trk screw early 671,7 1.00	
671-90	e-unit for turbine LIMITED 32.00	
671-93	front truck 671,681,682,2020 13.50	
671-94	front truck "T" stud turbine 1.00	
671-96	flapper arm assy orig LIMITED 10.00	
671-98	side rod turbines 671,681,2020 2.00	
671-99	long shoulder screw w/grooved head 0.75	
671-101	smoke cam 1946 laser repro 4.00	
671-102	flapper arm spring original 1.00	
671-105	collector assy sub 681-4 9.00	
671-107	collector arm rivet 0.20	
671-108	collector arm spring reproduction 0.50	
671-111	collector roller reproduction 0.75	
671-112	insulating spacer 0.25	
671-115	flapper screw long reproduction 2.00	
671-126	wheel & axle assy 1.50	
671-127	flanged pilot wheel original 0.50	
671-140	horizontal E-unit return spring 0.20	
671-151	truck spring reproduction 0.20	
671-158	nameplate w/lettering reproduction 3.00	
671-158R	insul plate repro no lettering 1.75	
671-160	metal smoke cover-new 4.00	
671-160E	early metal smoke unit cover orig 3.00	
671-167	smoke unit piston reproduction 3.75	
671-168	cylinder only for smoke housing 2.00	
671-170	smoke unit assy orig w/liquid kit 13.00	Picture
671-170H	smoke housing assy 9.00	Picture
671-180	brass worm gear reproduction 3.00	
671-181	black smoke stack gasket repro 0.40	
671-181W	white smoke stack gasket repro 0.40	
671-182	smoke cam new LTI 1.50	
671-183	worm cover 0.75	
671-184	drawbar for turbine reproduction 2.75	
671-185	long shldr screw or short 675-23 0.60	Picture
671-186	collector insulation reproduction 1.25	
671-188	smoke lever bend up reproduction 1.75	
671-196	original boiler front assy LIMITED 16.00	
671-196AD	boiler front adhesive decal(6200) 0.90	
671-196D	bfront keystone water decal (6200) 1.00	
671-201	motor centering dowel pin 0.25	
671-202	rear trk & drawbar assy 15.50	
671-209	4 finger contact assembly 3.75	
671-212	smoke unit lining repro "pacman" 0.40	
671-214	black lockwasher #3 split ring 0.20	
671-220	cloth wire & washer assy orig new 0.75	
671-221	smoke unit lining (pacman) 0.40	
671-223	12" lamp lead assembly 0.75	
671-225L	7 piece liquid smoke kit 4.00	
671-225W	nichrome wire per ft 0.20	
671-231	smoke unit housing (bowl) 3.00	
671-233	wire & washer assy 12" lead 0.75	
671-238	side rod screw w/grooved head 0.75	
671-239	spacer for turbine wheel 1.50	
671-248	axle bushing 0.75	
671-253	axle AKA(671-25) 1.25	
671M-4	field assembly new Madison 15.00	
671M-5	black brushplate original LIMITED 9.00	
671M-6	motor field stud new LTI 2.00	
671M-19	rear thrust washer .302 diam 0.20	
671M-20	rear bearing w/indent brass repro 1.50	
671M-21	ball bearing for motor 0.20	
671M-22	retaining ring 0.15	
671M-23	thin thrust/coupler washer 0.20	


Good deal I guess because you got the boxes too, it looks to be in good shape I don't see any major dents or dings, everything looks to be there. $125 with the boxes is not a bad deal, if it works and the engine doesn't need major repair.
You will have to wait to see what you got and how it works.
Engine and whistle.

I would still try to ask the seller for a few bucks back as the roller is missing.
$10 $20 bucks back would make it a better deal. It shows by the picture but they should have listed that it is missing? Especially being a hobby store.
Can't hurt to be nice and ask. Heck $20 or $10 back makes it all the better.
Most would credit your account instead of going through the hassle of shipping it back.


I would snatch up the book on Amazon, not a bad price. It shows your locomotive with a lot of pictures.

Olsens site has a bunch of pictures too if you want to look,
http://olsenstoy.com/searchcd2a.htm

Carl posted one, there are more for the 671.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I didn't notice this from your post as I was typing,

I did notice the missing PU roller right away though and asked the seller about it - he acknowledged that it was missing but didn't offer any money off as he still claims it runs - even though I KNOW it won't run correctly without the fwd roller. 


Forget about asking for any money back then. :smokin:


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Yeah - *shrug* I'm not too terribly worried about it! I'll run down to B&N later and see if they 
A: stock it
Or B: can order it 

Otherwise I'll order from Amazon. 

Thanks a million for the parts lists - I have seen the train tender site before and it is full of info - but seems hard to find stuff unless you know what you are looking for (which I kinda don't - lol) 

I'll take your advice and just call probably - that way he can know exactly what I've got and what I might need! 

More pics when I get it and take it apart and y'all can chime in again  


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

SNK said:


> Yeah - *shrug* I'm not too terribly worried about it! I'll run down to B&N later and see if they
> A: stock it
> Or B: can order it
> 
> ...


If you follow the link I posted, http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html

Look to the left and you will see pages with numbers.

Say for the 671 just go to the page where the number 671 would be and click it you will see all of the list I showed. That would be on page #4.
Any Lionel number your looking for parts, just go to the appropriate page and click.

If Jeff doesn't list a particular part number it may be that he can get it or something else will take it's place. Call to find out.

Down the bottom on the left is the bulk list, say if you get 25 of some clips or washers you will save over the one item price.
I picked these out as they are used on different Lionel cars,
480-18B	black horseshoe washer min(25) 0.12	
480-18	horseshoe washer min(100) 0.10	
480-18N	steel horseshoe washer min(25) 0.12	
480-19	rivet min(25) 0.12	
480-20	sliding shoe rivet min(25) 0.12	

Now say you buy one 480-18B singly you will pay .20 cents for it compared to .12 cents a piece if you got 25 of them. 
Here is the listing for just one, 480-18B	black horseshoe washer 0.20	

You will get them at a discount, compared to purchasing just one.
And they come in handy for a lot of different items as the same item was used on different trains.

When/if you get the book the part numbers are listed and once you start working on the Lionel trains you will see what items are used on a lot of stuff.

But by all means call him if you have a question, he should know and tell you if he has it or not.

But if you want to save on shipping wait and see all that you might need instead of ordering at different dates.

Jeff doesn't take credit cards or Paypal you send a check. Most of the times he will send it out before he gets your check.
Good man to deal with. :thumbsup:

Olsen's might have it too, might be at a little better price or it might be a little higher.
You will have to check that out yourself.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

The pickup plate is held on by two screws, they have insulating washers which MUST be there or the collector plate shorts out. There is on direct soldered connection to the plate, it contacts a "shoe" that passes through an insulated tube to the e-unit "red" wire. See attached page from Olsens. The collector can be ordered fully assembled from Jeff at Ttender as part #681-4 listed at 10.00 + shipping.


http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc671p3.pdf

Carl


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Excellent! thank you!

I will probably jut replace the entire collector assembly then - keeping the original builder plate of course.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It looks to be in good shape, I've got the o27 version and I like it a lot. I don't have the tender though. I'm jealous! I think you did good as I can see the tender alone fetching 50-70$. You don't see too many with that wheel configuration. Just know that some models have extra weight added to them for traction. Someone here had one and it wasn't pulling well. I think there's was an earlier model without the added weight. If you run into that problem, it should be easy to fix. Mine pulls great. Nice pick up.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> It looks to be in good shape, I've got the o27 version and I like it a lot. I don't have the tender though. I'm jealous! I think you did good as I can see the tender alone fetching 50-70$. You don't see too many with that wheel configuration. Just know that some models have extra weight added to them for traction. Someone here had one and it wasn't pulling well. I think there's was an earlier model without the added weight. If you run into that problem, it should be easy to fix. Mine pulls great. Nice pick up.



Thanks! I specifically have been holding out for the 12wheel tender. 

This one is an older variation so I know it should be weighted  


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Thought you guys would be interested in seeing what came in the mail today. 


















Flash washed it out but there is the entire intact logo on the front 




























More pictures later 


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

If anyone wants to give me any advice on what I should be looking for with this particular model I would greatly appreciate it  

Also how to start taking it apart. 

I am ordering the repair manual tonight. 
Haven't tried this on a track yet as it is missing it's front pickup - so I don't want to damage it. 


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

SNK said:


> If anyone wants to give me any advice on what I should be looking for with this particular model I would greatly appreciate it
> 
> Also how to start taking it apart.
> 
> ...


You can try it just don't run it like a bat out of hell.
See if it moves. 
The guy told you it runs that is how he ran it to test I guess, though you should fix it proper.
See if it moves, isn't it like Christmas?
You waited , now you unwrapped it, now you want to play with it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Belive it or not I never took mine apart. It ran fine. I would clean up the wheels and oil up the moving parts. The rollers on the whistle tender look a bit worn but they should work fine. Clean them up. Check the armature on the whistle tender and the brushes. Don't forget to oil up the points where the armature spins. The one wire on the tender looks a bit funky, you might need to replace it. You can see where a new wire was installed, so all the rest of the wiring might need replacement. See if it works, run it slow at first, it needs to be broken in again. Start there, and post results.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The turbines, 726s, and 736s have a worm drive which can only be lubed by removing the shell. There is also an oil hole for the motor which needs oil. I use motor oil for all lubrication. If you don't oil the motor and worm gear, you may get a lot of wear and ruin the motor. I had to replace the motor on one turbine I bought.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

I am bringing it in to my local train repair shop for them to take a look at and give me their opinion also. 

Repair manual ordered as well.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

SNK, That loco is rather easy to work on. Here;s a great resource link until you get the manual http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm

As servoguy says, oil it. The shell is very easy to remove, only 3 screws and nothing else. The only point I grease, and even then lightly is the worm gear, everything else, just plain ordinary motor oil. If you have it service specify that as a requirement, they will use other things such as Lionel oil, very bad. In truth, 20-30 minutes spent seeing if it moves is time well spent. The tender is also simple the lube points are easy to hit, I have the same tender with my 681.

Carl


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I can recommend two greases: Lucas red and tacky, and Valvolene chassis grease. From experience that some guys have posted, these greases evaporate very slowly and should be OK. Don't use white lithium grease or Lubriplate. They get hard relatively quickly.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It might not need much work, and with the fourms help, it will run great.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> It might not need much work, and with the fourms help, it will run great.


I know - but with this particular engine I am afraid that I will mess it up :-/

Not to worry though - I have not given up entirely - I have two other engines that I can experiment on. Both from the 70's (so I dont ruin a perfectly good example of an S2) - I will start threads for those directly, and will update this with pictures of the 671 when it comes back from the repair.

I did specify that they use regular motor oil and the guy told me that they do for the post-war stuff anyways. 

So this is what is being done to the engine - for quite a modest fee too I might add:

1. complete tear down and cleaning / lubing
2. rewiring as needed on both the engine and tender
3. replace parts as needed on engine and tender
4. wire up the 3 LED's and make it so they function (2 red for forward, 1 white for back-up)
5. touch-up the paint on the engine body and polish it up

These guys have been doing this for a while - so i trust that they will take care of this for me. 
This is a REAL local hobby store - NOT a chain establishment BTW. 

I was told that it could take up to a month depending on the work load (mine isnt the only engine in there) and how much work they have to do. 

I am looking forward to this greatly!


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

This question is for gunrunner John - 

I am looking to get them to make the backup lights on the tender directional. 

How would I have them go about this - in case they don't know And I need to explain it or give them a wiring diagram? 

Hopefully it's not something that is too hard - might have to have a wire harness on the engine? 


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

To do backup lights, you will have to wire from the motor, I'm pretty sure that's in the locomotive. 

Basically, you connect one side of the connection to the track roller voltage, and the other side to a brush on the motor. I use LED's as they'll light at a much lower voltage, so you need a current limiting resistor. For typical PW locomotives, I recommend something in the 680-1000 ohm range for the series resistor. The brush to use is dependent on the wiring of the locomotive, it's going to be the one that is connected to the field through the E-Unit in reverse. The other brush will go right to the roller voltage.

Steamers normally leave the headlight on all the time, but for diesels, you can expand this technique to have fully directional headlights.

What this does is give you voltage only in a specific direction, instant directional lighting.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Thank you Sir! 

I will be asking again for the installation of ERR stuff on my Williams GG1 


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It so happens I've done that to several Williams locomotives, an old semi-scale one and one of the newer scale ones. I eventually decommissioned the semi-scale one and used the electronics elsewhere, but I still have the scale one, and I have another one to do as well.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

I have a scale Williams coming 

Your expertise will be greatly appreciated 

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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

On the note of connecting the LEDs in the tender to the engine - what would you recommend? I was going to go with a RC car wiring harness - a little 2 pin connector or something and then paint it back where it would show. 

Thoughts? 


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For just adding the light, I'd probably use something like the MiniTronics Mini Connectors


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Good call! Thanks! 


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

Which one would you recommend? 


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if it's just the light that you want to control, I'd probably do the 2-wire one. Of course, you might get ambitious and want to add markers as well.


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## SNK (Sep 16, 2013)

I don't think the engine will take markers - so I think we will just stick with the 2 prong connector. 


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My engines take whatever I feel like giving them!


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