# 164 Log Loader help



## bryher (Dec 17, 2011)

Hi everyone,
Been awhile since I've posted here. I received so much help in the past restoring my father in law's post war set. A few years ago I completely rewired the 164 load loaded and got it fully working. Now this year something's wrong and need some help. The motor will not spin properly. This is the postwar version. I thought maybe it was the gears so I dismounted the motor and did the test I learned here - applied power to both terminals. Here's what's going on:

When power is applied the motor 'tries' to spin but just cant. Looks like its stuck. When no power is applied I can spin it freely by hand. So its not stuck. I cleaned the brush springs and where they connect contact plates on the motor/armiture. It still just hums but doesnt spin. 

So maybe this isnt a 164 specific problem but just a motor problem in general? What would cause a motor to hum but not spin? 

I'm still searching through the forum here and can post pics as needed but wanted to get this out there. Thanks!

Bryan


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

bryher said:


> Hi everyone,
> Been awhile since I've posted here. I received so much help in the past restoring my father in law's post war set. A few years ago I completely rewired the 164 load loaded and got it fully working. Now this year something's wrong and need some help. The motor will not spin properly. This is the postwar version. I thought maybe it was the gears so I dismounted the motor and did the test I learned here - applied power to both terminals. Here's what's going on:
> 
> When power is applied the motor 'tries' to spin but just cant. Looks like its stuck. When no power is applied I can spin it freely by hand. So its not stuck. I cleaned the brush springs and where they connect contact plates on the motor/armiture. It still just hums but doesnt spin.
> ...


Check the field wires to see if any are broken.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It could be old grease in the motor, that stuff gets hard as a rock, also make sure the gears line up and Are not missing teeth.


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## Kahl (Nov 19, 2015)

I do'nt what you mean when you say you are connecting power to the terminals. With the motor out of the unit connect one transformer wire to a brush, connect the other transformer wire to one end of the field coil wire and the other end of the field coil wire to the other brush. Motor should run.


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## bryher (Dec 17, 2011)

Sorry, I apologize in advance, I really am a novice here and not up on all of the terms. 




MattR said:


> Check the field wires to see if any are broken.


MattR, Sorry, what are 'field wires'? are they the wires coming from the motor itself?





sjm9911 said:


> It could be old grease in the motor, that stuff gets hard as a rock, also make sure the gears line up and Are not missing teeth.


SJM9911, so how do I know if its grease? I can spin the motor manually by turning the shaft my hand. its lubricated and smooth and moves the gears.



Kahl said:


> I do'nt what you mean when you say you are connecting power to the terminals. With the motor out of the unit connect one transformer wire to a brush, connect the other transformer wire to one end of the field coil wire and the other end of the field coil wire to the other brush. Motor should run.


Kahl - again sorry I'm not able to follow very well what you're explaining. The two brushes are connected to springs/coils that fit inside sockets. Outside of the sockets are two metal poles which eventually connect to wires. I meant to say I connect wires from my transformer directly to each one of the poles. I thought that was a way to test a motor, but its been awhile since I've done this. 

Here's some pictures to help explain:

So in this first picture you can see the two silver poles connect to the springs and brushes. I gently put the brushes in place on the motor commutator and then connected one wire each from my transformer to each pole. this was my attempt at testing the motor  It hummed and sparked and tried to spin but really couldnt.



I tried to clean this surface of the motor as well. Does this look very bad?



Here's how the brush plate is wired. You can see the wire on the left is original wiring. But by trying to directly connect to the motor as noted above I was hoping to rule out the old wire here. Are these 'field wires'?



Some other pics

Are the rust colored wires the field wires?



Rewiring I did a few years ago to the log loader:



could it be the glob of solder I used in the bottom left of this picture?



Any ideas?


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## Kahl (Nov 19, 2015)

Here is a picture of the 164 wiring diagram


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

OK, the shiny thing is the comuter plate, the three separate segments should have windings on them with a wire connection. What is the dust like stuff on the plate? Is that part of the brushes? Where did it come from? A scothbrite pad on the comuter plate will shine it up. Some contact cleaner or alcohol on a que tip to clean the windings. There is a lot of flux? Solder everywhere , did a drop of solder end up somewhere its not supposed to be? Try running it without hooking up the gears, maybe its just put in wrong and pinching?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The field coil needs power. From the diagram power goes to one brush ( your right side by your thumb) through the armature out to the second brush to the coil. So touch the brush by you thumb with one power wire and the second wire to the frame of the motor and it should run.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I was making these up as SJM was answering. (Edit, and the T Man)
I also never had one of these, but figured I would add a couple of cents here.


You say you rewired last year? 
The red arrows....why do these wires look bad?
The orange circle.....it looks like something got hot here? Were the red arrow wires rubbing here in the base hole (orange arrow) and heated up? What caused all the brown residue? Heat would? 










Like SJM asked what is this *where the green arrows are pointing, is it some kind of dust sitting there or is it pitting?*
That whole piece that spins is called the armature, the shiny (supposed to be shiny) plate is called the commutator. Like SJM said clean that up real good.
See the red arrow, clean out the 3 slots with a toothpick real good too.
Also when you put it back together see the axle on the armature? Oil that on both sides, just a drop.
*Does your whole armature pull out?*

















This ( blue arrow) around the armature is the Motor field. I don't know about your solder job there but *I am questioning what looks like black gooey stuff. (circled in red) Is that like a tar like goo?*
You can't take 2 power wires and touch each brush to see if it runs. All you will get is sparks and smoke. You take one wire to the brush and the other to the motor field wire. 
*The purple arrow? Is this pin working out or is that supposed to be that way? *
The gears from what I can see look good.












If you can* post pictures of your 2 brushes and the springs.*
You say you had it running? Check the wiring diagram that is posted and make sure that you had it all hooked up right.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The field coil wires being black concerns me a bit, is that the color of the insulation or is it cooked?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The field coil wires being black concerns me a bit, is that the color of the insulation or is it cooked?


I was going to add that too but I thought maybe it was the picture.
Edit,
I added the field coil wire in the picture, so he knows what we are talking about.
It looks like something got hot, huh?


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Yes the field winding is the dirty looking winding you can see in pic 2 and 3. I have had several "hidden" breaks in field wires, they are quite brittle. You gotta look good at the locations where the wire leaves the coil. 

They don't always break out in the open. Sometimes right where it meets the actual winding itself, maybe a half a wrap in even. Making it hard to see. I just went through this with a gang car at Christmas. Took me forever to find it, but there it was.

It is not a grease issue as some have suggested. You'll encounter that with things like larger steam locos that have an actual well for a grease reservoir. And they have to sit for like 50-60 years before they get so hard it can't turn at all. Even then it's rare.

Clean the armature face and brushes. Scotchbrite is fine, or very fine sand paper. No emery cloth, it has metal fragments in it that can screw thing up. Brushes as well. Rubbing alcohol, contact cleaner etc. I also just rub the bottoms of the brushes to freshen them up. 

I usually put the sandpaper on a table and stroke the brushes a few times across it. Trying to hold the brushes straight so as to keep the "cut" true. Q tips in the brush wells (spring holders) . I go in with 1 Q tip wet with alcohol, the a wiping run with a dry one. Kinda like cleaning a shotgun.

You have already been told the drill to test the motor. It is such a simple device, if you go through these few things, it's gotta work.

I'm doubting you have soldered connections touching because you said it ran fine when put away. Either way, they should be easy to spot if indeed there is one.

Matt


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

MattR said:


> Yes the field winding is the dirty looking winding you can see in pic 2 and 3. I have had several "hidden" breaks in field wires, they are quite brittle. You gotta look good at the locations where the wire leaves the coil.
> 
> They don't always break out in the open. Sometimes right where it meets the actual winding itself, maybe a half a wrap in even. Making it hard to see. I just went through this with a gang car at Christmas. Took me forever to find it, but there it was.
> 
> ...


I started typing this then was called to breakfast. Can't miss that! Looks like you have answers from all over since then. You'll get it.

Another note: I have seen dark coils like this and worked fine. Not saying this is the case now though. Also that brown underwear looking color where the wires pass through the platform surely looks like something shorted.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Yet another opinion......


You said,"I meant to say I connect wires from my transformer directly to each one of the poles. I thought that was a way to test a motor, but its been awhile since I've done this. "

You can't test these motors by applying power to the brushes via the "poles". You will just get a 60 cycle hum, as you have noted. The power must run through the armature and field coil in series. (As noted in an attachment in another reply). Otherwise, the motor will just hum and seem like it is trying to turn.

The pinion gear has a few nicks in it. I'm wondering if there is some type of jam. I would try to power it up properly and look for something in the mechanism that is keeping it from running.


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Dave Sams said:


> Yet another opinion......
> 
> 
> You said,"I meant to say I connect wires from my transformer directly to each one of the poles. I thought that was a way to test a motor, but its been awhile since I've done this. "
> ...


I believe it to be a field issue. I have had the EXACT results with broken field wires. More than once. Just 2 weeks ago on a gang car as well. Humms like mad but goes nowhere.

He stated it turns freely by hand, lending me to believe the pinion and gear assembly are not the binding problem.

FIELD ISSUE. IMHO

Matt


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Dave Sams said:


> Yet another opinion......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was looking at that too, but are they nicks or camera flash?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

MattR said:


> I believe it to be a field issue. I have had the EXACT results with broken field wires. More than once. Just 2 weeks ago on a gang car as well. Humms like mad but goes nowhere.
> 
> He stated it turns freely by hand, lending me to believe the pinion and gear assembly are not the binding problem.
> 
> ...


He didn't say it was all hooked up, just that the motor turned freely. It could also be simple as a missing spacer. Lots of things it could be


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

MattR said:


> I believe it to be a field issue. I have had the EXACT results with broken field wires. More than once. Just 2 weeks ago on a gang car as well. Humms like mad but goes nowhere.
> 
> He stated it turns freely by hand, lending me to believe the pinion and gear assembly are not the binding problem.
> 
> ...


Did he say it turned freely while in the loader or out of it?

I had a field issue once as well. I connected both wires from the field to my ohm meter and had zero resistance. A simple continuity tester would work as well. In that case, I unwound the filed, fixed the break and re wound it. I didn't think it was possible, but decided I had nothing to lose. The train has been running fine since!


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## bryher (Dec 17, 2011)

thank you everyone! I got it working again! I was missing a bunch of things so this was all very helpful. some notes:



sjm9911 said:


> OK, the shiny thing is the comuter plate, the three separate segments should have windings on them with a wire connection. What is the dust like stuff on the plate? Is that part of the brushes? Where did it come from? A scothbrite pad on the comuter plate will shine it up. Some contact cleaner or alcohol on a que tip to clean the windings. There is a lot of flux? Solder everywhere , did a drop of solder end up somewhere its not supposed to be? Try running it without hooking up the gears, maybe its just put in wrong and pinching?


- what looks like 'dust' on the plates is what I think is more pits highlighted by my camera. This, I think, is where I tried touching with the wires from my transformer.  obviously that didnt work but I think it left these little pits or scratches. 

- the extra soldering is just my poor workmanship

- I have been trying this w/out the gear connection already to rule that out




T-Man said:


> The field coil needs power. From the diagram power goes to one brush ( your right side by your thumb) through the armature out to the second brush to the coil. So touch the brush by you thumb with one power wire and the second wire to the frame of the motor and it should run.


- Yes, that was it!! It took a few tries and combinations but eventually touching one of the wires to one of the poles/brushes and the other to the motor frame worked!! the motor ran fine and smoothly at that point. 

So then had to put it back together. It seems part of the problem and the trick is re-attaching the "brush plate" to the "commuter plate" properly. Its really an awkward design (posted pictures below). Once I had that secured properly I re-attached the whole motor assembly to the gear connection. "bench tested" it once more and it worked. then, finally, flipped the whole thing over and connected it properly to the nuts on the log loader itself. and then tried the control to run it and it worked!! (using the " " to help me learn proper terminology so please correct me where needed).

Some other notes:



big ed said:


> ...
> 
> You say you rewired last year?
> The red arrows....why do these wires look bad?
> The orange circle.....it looks like something got hot here? Were the red arrow wires rubbing here in the base hole (orange arrow) and heated up? What caused all the brown residue? Heat would?


- good questions. I have no idea. Never noticed the residue but I'm pretty sure it was from previous operation under my father in law and brothers in law years ago with old wiring. not sure why the wires (red arrows) look bad tho.

- thank you so much for taking to time to show me where everything is and what its called. Really helps me a ton.



big ed said:


> I don't know about your solder job there but *I am questioning what looks like black gooey stuff. (circled in red) Is that like a tar like goo?*
> You can't take 2 power wires and touch each brush to see if it runs. All you will get is sparks and smoke. You take one wire to the brush and the other to the motor field wire.
> *The purple arrow? Is this pin working out or is that supposed to be that way? *
> The gears from what I can see look good.
> ...


- yea i dont know what that black gooey stuff is. the way this motor is setup makes it really hard to get inside to work on. right above that goo and near my finger is a bar that blocks alot. i dont see how I can take it out. 

- as far as that pin sticking out (wow you catch everything) never noticed that either. will have to see if it pushes back in or not.

- see below for more pics



gunrunnerjohn said:


> The field coil wires being black concerns me a bit, is that the color of the insulation or is it cooked?


- they seem to be a pretty even, consistent black so I have a feeling its their true color. you guys think thats heat damage?



MattR said:


> Yes the field winding is the dirty looking winding you can see in pic 2 and 3. I have had several "hidden" breaks in field wires, they are quite brittle. You gotta look good at the locations where the wire leaves the coil.
> 
> They don't always break out in the open. Sometimes right where it meets the actual winding itself, maybe a half a wrap in even. Making it hard to see. I just went through this with a gang car at Christmas. Took me forever to find it, but there it was.


- Wow, if its ever gets to that I dont think thats something I could do myself. Seems like a monumental task!!??



MattR said:


> It is not a grease issue as some have suggested. You'll encounter that with things like larger steam locos that have an actual well for a grease reservoir. And they have to sit for like 50-60 years before they get so hard it can't turn at all. Even then it's rare.


- ok thanks. good to know.



MattR said:


> Clean the armature face and brushes. Scotchbrite is fine, or very fine sand paper. No emery cloth, it has metal fragments in it that can screw thing up. Brushes as well. Rubbing alcohol, contact cleaner etc. I also just rub the bottoms of the brushes to freshen them up.
> 
> I usually put the sandpaper on a table and stroke the brushes a few times across it. Trying to hold the brushes straight so as to keep the "cut" true. Q tips in the brush wells (spring holders) . I go in with 1 Q tip wet with alcohol, the a wiping run with a dry one. Kinda like cleaning a shotgun.
> 
> You have already been told the drill to test the motor. It is such a simple device, if you go through these few things, it's gotta work.


- Ok, I did all of that before piecing this all back together this morning.




Dave Sams said:


> Yet another opinion......
> 
> 
> You said,"I meant to say I connect wires from my transformer directly to each one of the poles. I thought that was a way to test a motor, but its been awhile since I've done this. "
> ...


- Thanks Dave. This was part of the problem and helped me solve it.


Here's a picture of the brushes assembled...after I soaked them in and cleaned them with rubbing alcohol.



Here it is reattached to the loader again. 





This has been so helpful and I've learned alot in what I think is a truly amazing and fun product in these Lionel O-trains. I'll see if I can get this back into the layout and working and then onto my next task. Thanks all!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Glad you got it running! Sometimes just taking it apart and putting it back together is all it takes. An overtightened screw or a misaligned gear is all it takes to put a stop to your motor. For whats its worth, I had I think 1 bad field winding on my stuff, and I do have a lot of stuff! I did at one time think I had more ( just check my older threads ) but those problems turned out to be other issues. It does happen, but not often to me


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Reaching around and patting myself on the back.


Seriously, this is a great resource. I have learned so much from this farm (yes farm not fourm)

No big egos here, just guys who like trains.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Red arrow/ I guess you noticed the angle of the shaft?

Yellow arrow/ See if that piece can be adjusted so it goes in a little more, that angle on the shaft looks too off angled?

Blue arrows/ If it can adjusted some, straighten out both of the blues tabs straight. (the one in the middle too not marked blue) they don't need much straightening. 

Like I said, I don't have that but my 313 bridge's motors gearing almost works the same way with the shaft and gear, a little off angled is OK but it looks like your is more then a little off.
*Those blue arrow tabs look like someone bent them a little to make it all fit?*
See if whatever the yellow arrow is pointing to if you can adjust it a little to straighten out the gear assembly some.

Does the armature come out like I asked? Or do you have to take more apart to get it out?
Some come out easy others don't.

Very important....OIL the shaft. If it comes out you can get some oil on the other side easy but if it doesn't use a toothpick or something to get some oil on the other end of the axle.
Most of the time this side is neglected and will wear out the bushing causing the armature to wobble.
Another words,* Get some oil on BOTH sides of the armature axle.*


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## bryher (Dec 17, 2011)

Thanks again. This really is a fun hobby when you get such great help. 

and thanks again Big Ed for posting detailed pics. I see what you mean and have noticed the angle before and didnt give it much thought. I think I always thought it was b/c the thread in the shaft was a bit angled? But who knows. So looking at it now, though, first think I noticed is the tabs have holes in them (the two blue arrows) for the shaft to go. And these two tabs are definitely at different distances from the motor frame. So looks like maybe its on purpose?

To help, and also to get a general opinion before I put this back into service, I took a short video with sound of the motor running. I always thought it was a bit loud and 'grindy' but, well, its from circa 1946 or something and may never have been lubed. I am going to lube it as directed above but took the video first.

Does this look and sound like a healthy, well running motor?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd lube it before checking the sound.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It sounds good, oil would help.

To warn you I will edit you post to improve the video display.


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## bryher (Dec 17, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'd lube it before checking the sound.


Yea wanted to see before/after difference.

So sounds the same. But at least I feel like I've done my best. I did:

1) cleaned faced commutator with scotch brite (see pic below)
2) cleaned gaps in commutator 
3) cleaned brushes as well as I could with alcohol (couldnt get my q-tips into the brush wells)
4) oiled shaft on both sides (I can't easily get the motor out so did my best
5) lubed all of the gears.

But you'll see it sounds pretty much the same.

Here's a picture after cleaning on of the commutator plates - can you guess which one? 



So glad I did that.

*Now onto the videos:*

The "before" video (same as above) is before any cleaning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_O9it-QMZw

Then, dismounted the motor and did all the cleaning and lubrication. I think this sounds pretty good? thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wn6uYiwz3s

Finally remounted after cleaning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPtaoHwfnI8

Think it sounds pretty much the same, but good experiment.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That seems to be as good as it gets.  They're not really quiet accessories, it's hard to gauge how noisy from a video.


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## David 1005 (Jul 1, 2012)

It looks to me like one or two of the commutator slots are burned at the outer end. If this is what has happened, some of most of the armature current will be shunting around the armature coils, and increasing the current on the field coil. This will explain why the motor will not run or only run slowly. It will also explain why the field coil looks over heated. Look at the ends of the commutator slots when the motor is running, or trying to run, and see if there is a dull glow there. If this the case, you will need to either change the commutator, the armature or the motor.


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