# New F3 first report



## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I received 3 of my 4 SF units today. A little mixup means the superbass B isn’t arriving until Wednesday. Full report with photos/video then. 

I am not an expert on any road’s livery. That being said, these look good. There is an attempt to represent the stainless steel side panels, but I am not sure how these are supposed to look. Input sought. 

Short test run was fine. 

Quality issue. The powered B was missing a shell screw. How did I notice this? I had to remove the shell because something was rattling around inside. Discovered one of the motor mount screws was out. Not good that. 

Pleasant surprise. The powered B has sounds and is equipped with switches to turn off crew talk and signals leaving just the engine sounds active. Good that. Also a switch to turn off the coupler 

The superbass has the same controls.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Forest, I expect to have a set of Lionel's new Santa Fe F3 ABBA's coming from Charlie Ro sometime next week. And I really bought these for two reasons: one was Lionel's comments that they planned to produce these with the stainless steel plating effect -- much like other importers (Atlas-O, MTH, and 3rd Rail) have been doing recently. Secondly, I heard Lionel's Pennsy F3's demo'd at York last April, and the Railsounds package (including an all-new F3 horn) was superb. So I'm hoping for the best here. Please, Lionel.... don't let us Santa Fe fans down now!!!

Forest, you should be able to tell IMMEDIATELY if Lionel came through on the stainless steel plating effect. It's like night-and-day from the flat paint on earlier versions, and you should be able to see subtle, foggy reflections in the stainless steel silver-plated panels. Here's what I mean, using some photos I captured of *Atlas-O's Santa Fe F3's* they had on display at York a couple of years ago:





























As a point of comparison, here are two photos of *Lionel's very first scale Santa Fe F3's they did in the early 2000's with TMCC*. Note the flat, satin silver appearance as compared to shinier Atlas-O finish in the above photos:


















And lastly, here's a direct comparison of an *MTH Santa Fe E8 A-unit* photographed above the Lionel Santa Fe F3 (TMCC) units. Again, the difference is quite noticeable (although I think Atlas-O's silver plating is actually a step up from MTH's silver plating on their E8's from 2014):











Now as a heads-up, folks... I saw some quick snapshots of Lionel's new Santa Fe F3 units posted over on the other forum tonight, and I'm somewhat taken aback a bit. Lighting quality aside, Lionel's latest units do NOT appear to have the stainless steel plating effect I was expecting. And if that's really the case, I will be VERY disappointed... enough so that I will likely return them -- perhaps for a set of Great Northern's if Lionel got the green/orange paint scheme correct this time on those units. So now I'm waiting with baited breath to see what actually shows up later next week!!! 

Fingers crossed... 'cause if Lionel screwed this one up, then it's REALLY gonna tilt their track-record into the toilet as far as I'm concerned. First, I ran into all kinds of issues with their 21" passenger cars earlier this year. Then they changed the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha S-3 color scheme from what was illustrated in the catalog. And now potentially this issue with the Santa Fe F3's not have the silver plating effect we were promised. NOT GOOD!!!!  

So we shall see.....

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

David, they do not look like your examples. there is no reflectivity. they look like brushed metal.

i have been searching for photos of the real thing and i cannot find any with that level of reflectivity.

the sounds are, in fact, very good. should be even better with the superbass B.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> David, they do not look like your examples. there is no reflectivity. they look like brushed metal.
> 
> i have been searching for photos of the real thing and i cannot find any with that level of reflectivity.
> 
> the sounds are, in fact, very good. should be even better with the superbass B.


Forrest, glad to hear the sounds are great. However that's a HUGE disappointment if you can confirm that the units you have in your position do not have the stainless steel plating effect that the other importers have been able to achieve.

I don't mean to rain on your parade here. So please don't take it that way. But I'm really disappointed if Lionel dropped the ball yet again. In short, it's bringing my confidence level with them into negative territory... well below ZERO at this point. And I can't for the like of me imagine how enthusiasts are pre-ordering stuff from Lionel, given the endless acreage of quicksand that the company continues to step in. 

So I guess enthusiasts will once again be left with paying premium prices for less-than-the-best product. In this case, they'll get world-class sound, but minimal (if any) stainless steel plating effects. Whereas with other importers, enthusiasts get world-class stainless steel plating effects, but just a so-so sound-package. 

Such is life in our corner of the world these days.... or so it would seem. 

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

update. i have found some photos showing that level of reflectivity. i have also found some photos of the 26 set (Lionel is modeling the 22 set) that, at the angle the photo was taken, look very much like what Lionel has produced.

















i think it is all about the angle.

i will shoot side on tomorrow, but it ain't reflective.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Forrest, we posted our last comments simultaneously on top of each other. I still don't see the reflectivity in your above photos that I was able to capture with the Atlas-O and MTH units previously. I do agree, however, that lighting and the angle of photography can play an important role.

So until I see photos to the contrary, I guess I'll just need to await the arrival of my ABBA set later in the week.

Stay tuned....

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hi Forrest, about an hour later now... and I see somebody posted a short 20-second video clip of the new Lionel Santa Fe F3 ABBA over on the other forum. From what I can see -- and again this depends on your viewing angle -- it appears Lionel has implemented a more subtle stainless steel effect with their latest Santa Fe F3's. You can see a very (VERY) subtle reflections on the panels just above the trucks and lower body frame as the train moves across the video window. It's certainly not as pronounced as what I've seen with the Atlas-O or MTH units, but it's "something" more than the previous satin-finish locomotives have.

Now whether this meets the expectations of folks who pre-ordered a Lionel set based on seeing what Atlas-O had delivered to the marketplace.... well that remains to be seen and is strictly in the eye-of-the-beholder. 

Stay tuned.... 

David

P.S. BTW, the fellow who posted the video I referenced above also demo'd the new Railsounds F3 "horn", and it's EXACTLY as I recall hearing it at York last April. So kudos to Lionel for delivering a top-notch horn on these F3 units -- something that has been long overdue on such an iconic piece for decades now. :appl: And we can FINALLY say good-bye to the F3 horn that sounded like a sick cow all these years.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I guess it is about expectations. From photos that I have seen, the simulated polished steel on Lionel's latest Warbonnets is not what I would have expected but then I have not seen the Lionel units up close. Hard to visualize from just photos.

Bill


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

straight on side shots. no reflectivity.

sorry to bring this news.

it is not as big a deal to me as i am certain it is to many (most?). i wanted legacy F3's that ran well, sounded great, and look good. I got that. the side panels are not a deal breaker for me.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2018)

Lots of pluses with these diesels, but the stainless steel affect is not what I would expect. That's a real bummer for me.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

When Lionel came out with the Conventional Classic F3s a few years ago the paint was dull. Some were able to shine them up with Pledge furniture polish. I wonder if the would help here?
If I had these I could live with the finish but Santa Fe is not a road I follow. I have a few sets, Post War and TMCC but thats enough.
We all have our priorities. How does it look on the track from three feet away? I had to close the gaps and clean up the pilot so it looks more like the real deal.


















Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm happy enough with my MTH ones, but they do look nice.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

You should hear them, Lee. Video to come wed. 

Pete, I cannot see your attachments. Get an invalid attachment message.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Nice locos. Peter I can't see your attachments either.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Any better? the forum has been acting funky for me this morning.

Pete


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Yes. Looking good.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

They look real nice. Hope to see the video.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2018)

Here are the 3rd Rail F7's for comparison.

View attachment 463812


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

"From what I can see -- and again this depends on your viewing angle -- it appears Lionel has implemented a more subtle stainless steel effect with their latest Santa Fe F3's. You can see a very (VERY) subtle reflections on the panels just above the trucks and lower body frame as the train moves across the video window. 


this is true, i had not noticed before. very angle dependent. gotta be looking down at them.

also, takes about 10 min of running to get the smoke units up to speed.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lionel still doesn't do fix pilots and easy conversion to Kadee on these do they?


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

The engines PTC posted a picture of look like plastic that's been chromed to me. The posted picture doesn't look like a real f3 at all. Obviously that's an opinion based on a picture. 
From the pictures on-line that I've seen of the Atlas version, I feel the same way. Chrome plated plastic.

So far, from the on-line pictures, the current Lionel Santa Fe look the most realistic. Very subjective, and only using on line pictures of both model and prototype. Some people are going to like the new F3's, and some are not. None of them really look like the real thing, IMO. Every loco would have been different depending on where they ran, how they were maintained, and what stage of their "life" they were in.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2018)

Pictures can be misleading, but my F7's have shiny side panels. The affect was created by nickle plating. They look terrific.

Personally, I love them just the way they are. A dull finish is *NOT* for me. Thanks for reminding me as I will look for an Atlas set at the upcoming York Meet.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I have a bunch of the _Railking_ F3s, very recent ones. They have painted sides, etc., and that is good enough for me. 

I remember Santa Fe Warbonnett F3s from when I was a kid. I don't remember the sides as being shiny. My memories - very distinct but admittedly filtered over six decades, were of dusty slightly grimy locos. Not dirty esactly, but far from clean. 

I do recall something very vividly. I was impressed with the fact that the red paint on the locos was so different. Some were faded almost to a chalky orange, others bright (but not glossy) red, others in between. All in the same ABBA set. That greatly impressed a six year old. 

Regardless, the painted RK ones are fine by me - and while horn and bell aren't special, they are satisfactory, while the diesel sound is _fantastic_. I'm going to listen to Lionel;s' when I can, but I'm very happy with these latest RK F3s as far as diesel rumble goes. Just what I like.

finally, I have a Premier ABBA set of E8s (I know they ran ABA sets mostly but I like the extra B unit) has had MTH shiny metal screens and such quite nice, but not that important to me. 

Again, its what you like. For those who like shiny, go for it. And I imagine a bit of polish might add more sheen to the Lionel ones. sometimes that works.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2018)

While I'm not an ATSF fan, and that's probably an important fact, I like Forrest's less shiny F3s more than the more shiny ones. They just look better to my eyes. Of course, if someone gifted me a set of more shiny F3s I wouldn't turn them down. In fact, I would have a lot of fun with them even though they don't fit my operating scheme. To me, the more shiny ones are nice and the less shiny ones are nicer.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2018)

The prototypes sure look shiny to me. CASE CLOSED AS TO SHINY OR DULL.

View attachment 463942


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Remember, Brian, not just vanilla. o


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

It's all up to each of us what he likes. I'm sure that on the day they were new Warbonnet F3s were glossy red and shiny all over. So that is probably as authentic as anything else, and if you like it, got for it!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

When manufacturers started making shiny ones I thought it was just a variation used only for the big name trains. Looking at pics though it appears they were all shiny, even into the middle '50s when maintenance started taking a back seat. If I was a Santa Fe modeler I would want shiny. 

More and more though its starting to look like if you want to be reasonably sure of getting a model close to prototype, then Lionel is not where you want to go.

Pete


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I am guessing that after many thousands of miles they were not to shiny and I doubt any locos were pulled out of service for a spit shine.

Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

seayakbill said:


> I am guessing that after many thousands of miles they were not to shiny and I doubt any locos were pulled out of service for a spit shine.
> 
> Bill


That's what I remember as a kid. I always wanted to go see the locos before we got on the train. They were always pretty clean, but the paint was faded and there was dirt here and there and mud on the trucks, etc. They were working trains. 

Still, I understand the appeal of really shiny stuff: nothing gleams quit like those glossy Black Bonnet F3s I have - and, you know, they are so absolutely historically accurate!


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

I sincerely hope I didn't upset anyone with my previous post! That wasn't my intention, and what I post is just my opinion, which may not be correct at all.

As the above picture shows, the Santa Fe's were shiny. There never was any doubt about that. My opinion is that plated plastic doesn't look like the above picture. The models seem too uniform and reflects more of a silver-white look than a blue-silver look. Perhaps the blue-silver look is because the real locomotive is outside, and our models are inside under artificial light. I don't know. The plated model loco's just look "off" to me, doesn't mean they are, just look it to me.

So far, all the plated loco's look strange to me. If I were in the market for a Santa Fe f-unit, I would be interested in the current Lionel version if it's plated, but a bit more understated than the releases from the other importers. Once again, that's just me.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

c.midland, I don't believe anyone on this forum would be upset with anyone's preference on electric trains. Lionel's simulated stainless steel AT&SF F units are probably closer to the real deal version. There is a kazillion AT&SF F units for folks to choose from, should be no problem in finding one that fits any preference.

Bill


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“More and more though its starting to look like if you want to be reasonably sure of getting a model close to prototype, then Lionel is not where you want to go.”

Well, if you look at the photo I posted of set 26 and the model of set 22, I believe you would have to say the model is very accurate (aside from the side panels, although they look the same in those photos). 

My brass hybrid is a very accurate model. 

Some of the other F3’s, maybe not so much. 

As I indicated before, these will work just fine for me. Just as clearly, they won’t for others.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2018)

This comes down to an issue of personal taste. Some like it shiny, others not so much. There is room for all.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Weather them, make them look as they did in the real world and your problem is solved. Then again weathering is a personal taste also:lol_hitting:


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

There will be a delay in video. Have received the SuperBass B, but have realized the powered B is damaged.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Fabforrest said:


> There will be a delay in video. Have received the SuperBass B, but have realized the powered B is damaged.


Bummer, sorry to hear about the damaged B unit. What caused the problem, shipping, packaging, or manufacturing ?

Bill


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Bill, the missing body screw and the motor mount screw completely out should have set alarms to ringing. Guess I was distracted first by the joy of finally getting them and second by the side panel issue and subsequent analysis. 

I suspect this happened in the factory. 

The lead truck is compressed into the frame so that the front of the unit is about 1/4 inch lower than the rear. This is very apparent when coupled with the other units. In addition, both couplers are broken. They are loose in all directions and droop down at about a 30 degree angle making them grossly misaligned with the couplers of the units ahead and behind. 

Back to Ro for exchange.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just spoke with a friend in our club about his new F3s. He returned all four units for repair. Missing traction tires on the A units plus a broken coupler. Neither B unit works with Bluetooth. His boy is also in our club and Bluetooth was a big reason for getting these.

Pete


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I have stated in the past that I had never seen a warbonnet that I didn't like. There are the exceptions with the yellow bonnets and the black bonnets, but I still think the classic red warbonnet is the greatest paint scheme ever made. It is even beautiful on engines other than F units. 

I find myself more upset with the colors of red that have been used than the new polished side panels. But I do think that it is great that we have so many excellent versions to pick from. And the sounds is another big improvement. The old "ruptured duck" horn sounds have finally been up graded. And the additional pickup rollers have greatly improved performance over switches.

It's still the best of times to be in 3-rail, worts and all.

Art


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Fabforrest said:


> Bill, the missing body screw and the motor mount screw completely out should have set alarms to ringing. Guess I was distracted first by the joy of finally getting them and second by the side panel issue and subsequent analysis.
> 
> I suspect this happened in the factory.
> 
> ...


Forrest,

What a damned shame, I don’t think I have ever seen any of the toy train manufacturers have such a string of bad products. Lionel better get it together or they will lose us. This all stinks of bad management to me. Lionel needs a management shake up. The guys in charge are not getting it done.

I am holding off on placing any new Lionel orders until I see an improvement in quality.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> Bill, the missing body screw and the motor mount screw completely out should have set alarms to ringing. Guess I was distracted first by the joy of finally getting them and second by the side panel issue and subsequent analysis.
> 
> I suspect this happened in the factory.
> 
> ...





Norton said:


> Just spoke with a friend in our club about his new F3s. He returned all four units for repair. Missing traction tires on the A units plus a broken coupler. Neither B unit works with Bluetooth. His boy is also in our club and Bluetooth was a big reason for getting these.
> 
> Pete


Oh my.... this is starting to sound a bit like what some of us endured through the Lionel 21" passenger cars earlier this year. Seems the factory is getting REAL sloppy with their work.

What makes these F3's more prone to trouble is folks are essentially buying 3 or 4 "locomotive units" in one purchase. So the odds of getting one unit with something wrong is greater than folks just buying one locomotive unit.

Waiting for these toys to arrive is supposed to be fun. But instead, apprehension enters into the picture as we read about early experiences that aren't the best. Unfortunately, it's a pattern that's not getting any better. 

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“What makes these F3's more prone to trouble is folks are essentially buying 3 or 4 "locomotive units" in one purchase. So the odds of getting one unit with something wrong is greater than folks just buying one locomotive unit.”

I had that same thought on my way to the UPS store.


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## gnnpnut (Oct 19, 2016)

Chugman;2313828d the sounds is another big improvement. The old "ruptured duck" horn sounds have finally been up graded.
Art[/QUOTE said:


> Art, now you have me curious. The "ruptured duck" horn, which is representative of a single chime horn on an F unit, is what an F unit sounded like with a single chime horn. I have this horn in my TAS equipped Atlas F3s from Atlas.
> 
> I don't much like the sound of a single chime horn, I much prefer the sound of a three chime horn, but I stick with the horn that the locomotive was delivered with, even if I don't particularly like the sound.
> 
> ..." frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>
As a comparison, here is a video of my Walthers Proto F3s in HO with the same single chime horn. Go to 1:13 for a grade crossing sequence.





" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>
My Intermountain F7 / F3 in HO were programmed from the factory with a three chime horn. Like the sound, but I am cheezed off that I can't change it to the single chime horn. For some reason they don't make that available on that QSI decoder version.

Regards, 
GNNPNUT


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I haven't run my Lionel F3 in a while but don't remember it as being that clear. Yours sounds like a healthy goose, Lionel's like a dying goose.

Pete


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2018)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> This comes down to an issue of personal taste. Some like it shiny, others not so much. There is room for all.


So true, Brian. I think I like the less shiny F3s because I grew up with the plastic body locomotives that weren't shiny. I never saw a real ATSF F3 in action so the Lionel F3, and later other scale models of an ATSF F3 are my reference. I'm so used to the dull silver that the prototypically correct shiny sides don't look right to me. 

There is a right and wrong as to being prototypically accurate but there is no right and wrong as to how we run our layouts. You are right, Brian, there is room for all of us however we enjoy the hobby.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

The TMCC warbonnets I used to have sounded awful. The noise from the horn was best described as bleating. 

The new ones sound great. I don’t know how many chimes, but I like it.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

*New Photos of Lionel Santa Fe and Great Northern F3/F7's*

Hi folks,

For those interested, here are some additional quick -- very quick -- iPhone photos comparing Lionel's new Santa Fe and Great Northern F3's with prior models of similar paint schemes.

First up are the Santa Fe comparisons. I received a full ABBA configuration from Charlie Ro. But I only opened one B-unit, because I wasn't sure if I'd like Lionel's implementation of the steel silver-plating effect after all that's been reported thus far. Unfortunately, right off the bat -- the first piece I opened -- has a cosmetic issue in that one of the roof panels covering the smoke units doesn't fit properly. In fact the entire center roof panel is loose and doesn't snap in place at all. So for that reason alone, I'd be returning it. 

However, I've also decided that -- in comparison to other implementations of the steel silver-plating effect I've seen -- Lionel's implementation just isn't my cup of tea for an outlay of close to $1340 (which was Charlie's "early buy" price immediately following release of the 2017Vol2 catalog). So the entire ABBA configuration will be going back to the dealer.

Nonetheless, here are some photo comparisons...

*Photo1:*








*Photo2:*








*Photo3:*








*Photo4:*








As you can see, Photo1 is my all-inclusive comparison of Santa Fe E/F-units I own: Lionel's newest F3 B-unit (upper left), MTH's E8 B-unit (upper right), and Lionel's original scale TMCC F3's from the early 2000's decade (bottom row). Lionel's newest F3 is certainly a definite step up from the original TMCC units; however, I simply prefer MTH's implementation of the brighter silver-plated effect. 

The photos pretty much speak for themselves, so there's not much more to add beyond what's already been discussed. If you don't yet own an earlier Lionel Santa Fe F-series configuration, then I'd say these latest models will surely please you -- assuming you can get your hands on a set that looks AND performs well. It's really hit-and-miss these days with Lionel's factory quality. Photo4 shows the roof-top panel that I mentioned doesn't fit... no matter how hard I pressed downward. Seems the smoke unit ducts won't let the panel sit flush with the roof.  

I should mention two additional observations that jumped out at me when photographing these images. First, the B-unit's electro-coupler has a noticeable sag to it (see Photo2), which is yet another example of more sloppy factory work. Secondly, the fuel and battery tanks on Lionel's original scale F3's from 15 or so years ago have the words "Battery" and "Fuel" labeled in red on them, whereas the newest models have the tanks without any labels whatsoever. Certainly not a deal-breaker. And it's not so much factory sloppiness as it is yet another example of factory short-cuts here and there.... or Lionel removing that little detail from the specs to save a few pennies along the way. 


Next up are the Great Northern comparisons. To date, I have not seen any online photos of Lionel's newest Great Northern F3. So hopefully this will shed some light on the subject of Lionel's implementation of the GN color-scheme this time.

*Photo5:*









*Photo6:*









*3rd Rail / Golden Gate Depot announcement brochure:*








Bottom line... Lionel seems to have nailed the correct Great Northern green and orange colors for these locomotives. At least from what I can tell by looking at 3rd Rail / GGD's brochure for their Empire Builder train. Sure... sunlight can make a big difference how our eyes perceive the Great Northern green/orange colors. But I think Lionel really did a great job on these from a color standpoint. The comparisons in Photo5 and Photo6 compare an F-series B-unit against Lionel's SD70ACe locomotive produced several years ago when Lionel did the BNSF Heritage series of locomotives. Those locomotives had a very noticeable glossy appearance to them -- not to mention more of a deep conifer green and deeper orange color combo. Whereas Lionel's newest GN F-series units have more of a pleasing flat paint finish along with a deep olive-green and lighter/pale orange color combo -- which I believe is closer to the actual prototype Empire Builder. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to personal preferences I guess. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lionel offer it's own 21" Empire Builder cars at some point down the road, as they'd make a terrific train headed up by these new F-series locomotives.


As I indicated earlier, the Santa Fe units will be going back -- on my own dime no less.  But the Great Northern configuration that I purchased at Nicholas Smith Trains locally yesterday is a keeper (providing I encounter no operational issues when I test them out this weekend) -- especially since the Empire Builder is one of my favorite trains. (Glacier National Park is still on my bucket-list of places to visit, and I heard they're already getting SNOW out there in the park, which typically only has a 2-month general tourist season.) It was also nice SEEING the actual locomotive color scheme BEFORE pre-ordering blindly or purchasing these units online. It cost a few more dollars buying locally, but it was worth it to me given Lionel's all-too-common factory issues and surprises these days. 

David


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Poking around the internet and digging up a few old films with examples on you tube, it's not clear to me at least really how shiny the sides of these were in real life. There appears to definitely be on most examples I saw in my "exhaustive search" a 2 color grey/silver thing going on -- on the sides. In some photos or films, one of these two colors seemed highly reflective. But in others, not so much. In a few, they was only one color -- and these are the vintage engines, not the newer engines painted in a warbonnet style theme which also appear to be one grey color. Then in some but a minority of cases the films suggest the sides of these were one monochromatic dull grey. Finally in at least one example, the whole side seemed to be a reflective and polished silvery metal.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

David, your one photo appears to show an electro coupler drooping down. Any chance you would be able to take some pics of the top and bottom side of the coupler while it is swung out to the side to show the mount. Many want to swap the coupler out for a shorter one but without seeing the existing one its hard to determine a proper replacement.










BTW is the volume pot also under that loose roof panel? Some pointed out the pot is mounted to high and prevents the lid from closing. Fixable if you were going to keep it but likely to come up on other versions too.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Until Lionel has the option of fix pilots and being able to install Kadees with ease it's MTH, AtlasO or 3rdrail only for me. Those swinging pilots and monster claws just kill it for me. Whether or not the sides are too shiny or not doesn't even come into play.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“First, the B-unit's electro-coupler has a noticeable sag to it (see Photo2), which is yet another example of more sloppy factory work.“

Mine had an even greater sag and flopped around. There was no horizontal tension at all. Was yours like this, David?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Maybe it would help if youse guys could take a picture of the mount. Is it like the dummy coupler with just plain thin steel or the more common electro coupler mount with the spring, t bar and e clip?

Pete


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Sorry to hear of all the problems with these F Units...I know what it’s like to get something new and have it immediately become a problem. It sucks the fun out of it.

I have read of others having trouble with the removable hatch on the roof not fitting. I gotta think that would problem would go throughout the entire run. I think the Amtrak F40 had the same hatch problem. 

Too bad...hard to believe Lionel can’t get this right, or catch it before it ships to the consumers.

I am not ordering anything new from Lionel until I see the quality improve.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> David, your one photo appears to show an electro coupler drooping down. Any chance you would be able to take some pics of the top and bottom side of the coupler while it is swung out to the side to show the mount.
> 
> ...
> 
> BTW is the volume pot also under that loose roof panel? Some pointed out the pot is mounted to high and prevents the lid from closing. Fixable if you were going to keep it but likely to come up on other versions too.


Pete, I'm out of town for the day, but I'll take a few more photos of the electro-coupler mount tonight when I return home.

Regarding the roof-top panel problem. It appears that center panel can't be seated properly because the smoke-unit duct-work sits too high in that compartment. It's the first thing I noticed when I removed the unit from the box.  The volume pot is underneath a different rooftop panel that appears to be held in place by magnets. That panel fit properly on my unit, and lifting it up and putting it back in place was not a problem.



Fabforrest said:


> “First, the B-unit's electro-coupler has a noticeable sag to it (see Photo2), which is yet another example of more sloppy factory work.“
> 
> Mine had an even greater sag and flopped around. There was no horizontal tension at all. Was yours like this, David?


Forrest, yes indeed. The B-unit coupler has a LOT of play in it. The knuckle on the coupler is large enough so that it still grabs on to the coupler of the adjacent car. But seeing that kind of play doesn't give you a ton of confidence that anybody cares anymore how these expensive goodies are being assembled. 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe we should start two more threads. Lionel failures, Lionel successes. Which one would get more responses these days?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Craignor said:


> Sorry to hear of all the problems with these F Units...I know what it’s like to get something new and have it immediately become a problem. It sucks the fun out of it.
> 
> I have read of others having trouble with the removable hatch on the roof not fitting. I gotta think that would problem would go throughout the entire run. I think the Amtrak F40 had the same hatch problem.
> 
> ...


Craig, Lionel has big quality problems these days. And that's putting it kindly. When I stopped by the local store to check out the Great Northern color-scheme on these F-units, we got to chatting a bit. And the fellow there mentioned they returned almost 100 passenger cars to Lionel from the production run that was released earlier this year (i.e., including the Union Pacific, Penn Central, and American Freedom Train liveries). That's a TON of product returned no matter how you spin the story -- which is why I was so ticked off when OGR's Rich Melvin came out of retirement to side with Lionel over long-time forum members who were only sharing accurate information they were experiencing first-hand. And the fact that a major local dealer returned that much faulty product only confirms everything I wrote in my reviews was indeed very accurate. In retrospect, I have no regrets on how I handled the situation over there. 

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

David while you are checking couplers, compare it with your TMCC B unit. I don't recall those having the droop nor sticking out that far.

Here is a pic of two TMCC B units coupled together. The unit on the left has an electro coupler. These do not have Liondrive so it may or may not be possible to use the TMCC coupler on the Legacy B.
This is how it looked before I installed Kadees.









Pete


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

David,

I suppose OGR is most concerned with currying favor with Lionel as an OGR advertiser and sweeping the dirt under the carpet, and less concerned with Lionel hearing first hand accounts of how their products were received by their customers. Hiding the bad reviews only assures that the next batch of trains will be produced with the same faults.

The beauty of MTF is being able to share product reviews, good and bad, with our fellows without interference. The OGR Forum used to be like that until the moderation began.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Craig, what is *MTJ*?


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Craig, what is *MTJ*?


Whoops....MTF.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

A typo?


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

More like a brain fart.

I used to follow Model Train Journal forum, or MTJ. There is not much going on at MTJ these days.


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## BFI66 (Feb 7, 2013)

I Received my Santa Fe F3 yesterday with the powered B and the Super bass b units. I also have the 2010 Legacy F3’s. My first impression is that the 2018 version is much nicer. Better sound effects especially the horn. If you looking for shiny plating on it......you are not gonna get it.....but I like it the way it is.....nicer paint job than the 2010’s. The only issues I found so far are as follows:

1. Smoke units are anemic.......takes about 5-10 minutes to get them going and I am using a ZW-L

2. The electro couplers on the B unit are as reported,a bit long and sag, but the sag is taken up as unit runs. The sag all but disappears while the F3 runs and keeps taunt when it comes to a stop. Not really an issue for me.

3. When I removed the magnetized cover to access the controls on the lead F3, I found a miscellaneous screw attached/magnetized to the cover....not a good sign.....hopefully it was a miscellaneous screw picked up at the manufacturer and not one inside the F3.

I have run it for about an hour straight with no issues......keeping my fingers crossed for now.

-Pete


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

The war bonnet paint on the roof is wrong. It should not run parallel to the side panels. As the lines reach the roof they should start to angle toward the horns.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

SantaFeJim said:


> The war bonnet paint on the roof is wrong. It should not run parallel to the side panels. As the lines reach the roof they should start to angle toward the horns.


Oh my. for me that is serious. Yes they should!!!


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

In addition, the screen that goes from the door to the back of the A units should be silver. Lionel seem to get this wrong more often than not.

See the picture that PTC posted on page 1 of this thread.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

In addition, the screen that goes from the door to the back of the A units should be silver. Lionel seem to get this wrong more often than not.

See the picture that PTC posted on page 1 of this thread.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

SantaFeJim said:


> The war bonnet paint on the roof is wrong. It should not run parallel to the side panels. As the lines reach the roof they should start to angle toward the horns.


I am looking at the pictures of set 26 and the model of 22 I posted on the first page and I can’t see what you are taking about. Is it on top of the roof?


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> I am looking at the pictures of set 26 and the model of 22 I posted on the first page and I can’t see what you are taking about. Is it on top of the roof?


I think this is what he is talking about.



















It should look like this:


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Got it. Thanks. 

Not a biggie for me. Although I am sure it will be for many.


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Are there 2 different versions of this engine? I'm seeing pictures on OGR showing plating on the current release, and pictures on this forum showing a different color paint where the plating should be. The pictures are very confusing as to what Lionel actually produced. Some engines seem to be plated, while others seem to be painted, all current production.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

One version. It looks different depending on angle and lighting, but it does not have shiny, reflective side panels.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

c.midland said:


> Are there 2 different versions of this engine? I'm seeing pictures on OGR showing plating on the current release, and pictures on this forum showing a different color paint where the plating should be. The pictures are very confusing as to what Lionel actually produced. Some engines seem to be plated, while others seem to be painted, all current production.



I can assure you... the new Lionel Santa Fe F3's do NOT have any reflectivity to speak of -- at least not in the sense that I've seen with the Atlas-O and MTH models, both of which have highly reflective steel plating effects. Enough so that when I photographed the Atlas-O sample at York a few years ago, I could see reflections of yellow labels that Atlas-O had placed trackside near the locomotives. Similarly, I was wearing a bright green shirt that could be seen as a soft shimmery reflection in a few photos, depending upon the angle. 

With the Lionel model, neither of these scenarios came into play. The Lionel steel plating is predominantly a soft satin finish. For folks who don't have anything to compare, the Lionel model will suit them just fine (assuming good quality and performance)... plus they get the added bonus of MUCH better Railsounds. Any disappointment with the Lionel models is typically the result of having expectations that Lionel would simulate the steel-plating with the highly reflective style that Atlas-O and MTH have produced.

David


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

to all who purchased these 

has anyone contacted lionel about the plated area to see if they made them like that or? just curious is all


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I doubt very much Lionel plated these. If they had they wouldn't have dull coated them. I think they just used a bronze tinted silver to simulate stainless. FWIW Scott at 3rd Rail painted his ESE engine and cars along with the Burlington Zephyr and maybe a few more with tinted paint, though he either used a gloss paint or clear coated it make it shinier. Not a good representation of stainless though. A lot of stainless has very little yellowish tint and when polished could pass for chrome. Only when placed directly next to chrome can you see a difference.

Pete


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

OK, here is the latest on this saga.

sent the damaged powered B unit back to Ro for exchange. instead i got an email saying they would repair. 2-4 weeks...or longer...depending on parts availability. hell, i know new products don’t have any parts availability, so i ordered another and would deal with the repaired unit when i got it back.

the new unit arrived today.

damaged.

on coupler completely off. the spring in the bottom of the box. whatever holds it in place (rivet? screw?) and the coupler hanging on by the wires.

i may send this one back to lionel.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

What cheeses me the most about this is that it obviously went into the box this way.

Thinking about Flo, I will probably send back to Ro


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's amazing Forrest, makes me very afraid about my upcoming H10, I hope I don't have to leave that one behind as well!

I'm planning on testing it at the shop before I "take delivery", if it's not right, I'm just going to hand it back to them and cut my losses!


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2018)

That really stinks, Forrest. Either you are having a run of really bad luck or Lionel's quality control really sucks. When I lived in NY I would make a pilgrimage to Trainland (Trainworld) two or three times a year to make my locomotive purchases. I really liked being able to see what I was buying before putting my money down. I don't miss NY at all but I sure do miss Trainland.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

As noted in another thread, my Bluetooth radio tower also arrived damaged today.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2018)

Fabforrest said:


> As noted in another thread, my Bluetooth radio tower also arrived damaged today.


That really stinks, Forrest. Is it made by Lionel?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> As noted in another thread, my Bluetooth radio tower also arrived damaged today.


UNBELIEVABLE, Forrest!!! I know either the dealer or Lionel will make these items right for you, but it's just the let-down of it all after paying premium prices for this stuff that can be hard to take some days -- especially when things like this become the norm more than the exception. 

This is PRECISELY why I was so vocal about the crappy job Lionel's factory did with their latest production of 21" passenger cars earlier this year. My candid (but very accurate) comments were at the root of my going separate ways from OGR management in March, but I don't give a rat's patooty about those keystone-kops anymore. They showed their true colors, and I don't have a good thing to say about them as a result.

Harry Henning had his complete American Freedom Train running on the club layout for the Run-For-Fun weekend a few days ago, and his AFT consisted of K-Line and Lionel cars, including Lionel's new StationSounds car. The train looked really cool. And as usual, the Lionel Railsounds folks did an OUTSTANDING job with the sound features of the new StationSounds car. However, leave it to the factory flunkies to forget to hide the electronics from view when visitors look into the car. Yes... that's right... all the sound components and wiring in the interior of the car are in full view for everyone to see.  What a disappointment! I'm sorry... but other StationSounds cars aren't like that. So why would the factory cut corners on THIS car?  Because somebody was lazy... and another somebody let the cars pass inspection without giving a hoot. :thumbsdown:

Sad that we're either dealing with stuff that doesn't work out of the box... or when it actually does work, there are often cosmetic issues that WE need to take the time to correct. 

Good luck getting your F-units and bluetooth tower corrected, Forrest.

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Country Joe said:


> That really stinks, Forrest. Is it made by Lionel?


Yep. The packaging is going to result in a lot of damaged lights.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Yeah, too bad Forrest. 

Getting new stuff used to be fun, now it’s not. 

It seems like every new item delivered from Lionel is screwed up, and it’s seems to be getting worse not better.

Lionel is doing something wrong, they need a management change right away. 

I have stopped preordering anything from Lionel until I see a big improvement.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Out of curiosity, has anyone that ordered or purchased these F units get a set that wasn't damaged and operates well at the same time?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Traindiesel said:


> Out of curiosity, has anyone that ordered or purchased these F units get a set that wasn't damaged and operates well at the same time?


Brian, my Great Northern F3's seem to be doing well... or at least as well as can be expected from Lionel these days. No cosmetic issues, and performance is good... although I haven't run with smoke units "on" yet. I don't particularly appreciate the sloppiness of Lionel's factory giving us couplers that dip lower than they should. But I'm trying to see if they'll work themselves into a better position after running awhile. I had a derailment this evening that looked like one of those B-unit couplers might have been the culprit. So I'm keeping a closer watch on that for now. 

On a related note... my Golden Gate Depot Empire Builder cars arrived Monday, and I took them for a test run this evening. All I can say is WOW!!!! I almost forgot how HEAVY these cars are -- especially the great dome car made of brass. I'll have to weight them in.  A few of the cars were a bit squeaky, so I may need to oil the journals on the passenger car trucks. Has anybody run into this with these or other GGD passenger cars straight out of the box? They're definitely NOT what I would call "free-wheeling" cars, so I can see why Scott is making all his locomotive units powered these days!!!  I'm noticing this with "just" 9 passenger cars in the train. I can't imagine some folks have 15+ cars as part of their El Capitan train... which must REALLY need 4 powered units.  

I had a hunch these cars were gonna be hefty, so I sprung for another Lionel powered B-unit this week. And I loved the super-bass effect so much that I got another one of those too. So my Empire Builder train now consists of an ABBBBA locomotive configuration (w/3 powered units and all 6 with sounds -- absolutely STUNNING to hear), plus 2 matching MTH Great Northern R50B express reefers doing head-end duty, plus 9 hefty GGD Empire Builder 21" aluminum passenger cars. 

Now if Lionel would only announce and deliver _their_ 21" Great Northern Empire Builder cars so I can add some StationSounds effects, I think I'll have the "ultimate" Empire Builder train. As I mentioned in my F3 "closer look" thread, Lionel hit a grand slam with these from a RailSounds perspective. And hearing SIX locomotive units working in harmony has gotta be heard in person to do them justice. But I'll try to capture the effects as best as possible with an upcoming video, now that I have Great Northern passenger cars and two more B-units to boot. 

Stay tuned for that new video soon.

David


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

should not the seller, take the item out of the box, visually inspect, run -- then ship?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The Lionel H10 I'm expecting soon is going to run at the store before I leave, and if it isn't right, it's not leaving with me!


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

there's got to be some kind of value add if you are a retail shop... right?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The value add is I get to test it before I buy it.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The Lionel H10 I'm expecting soon is going to run at the store before I leave, and if it isn't right, it's not leaving with me!


Isn't that sad state of affairs Lionel is in right now? Countless people stating no more pre-orders, not buying until the reviews are out. from diesel shells the wrong colors, Moguls that don't run right, crazy, just crazy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It is unfortunate how sad things have become at Lionel, I'm afraid the bean counters have totally taken over! They are destroying their reputation at a rapid rate, I worry about the future.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

If I buy from hennings, will you test it for me?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know what Harry would have to say about that.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Retry -- so the typical pattern here is the item is in many hands between the factory and the customer, and no one looks it until the customer gets it home?


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Brian, my Great Northern F3's seem to be doing well... or at least as well as can be expected from Lionel these days. No cosmetic issues, and performance is good... although I haven't run with smoke units "on" yet. I don't particularly appreciate the sloppiness of Lionel's factory giving us couplers that dip lower than they should. But I'm trying to see if they'll work themselves into a better position after running awhile. I had a derailment this evening that looked like one of those B-unit couplers might have been the culprit. So I'm keeping a closer watch on that for now.
> 
> On a related note... my Golden Gate Depot Empire Builder cars arrived Monday, and I took them for a test run this evening. All I can say is WOW!!!! I almost forgot how HEAVY these cars are -- especially the great dome car made of brass. I'll have to weight them in.  A few of the cars were a bit squeaky, so I may need to oil the journals on the passenger car trucks. Has anybody run into this with these or other GGD passenger cars straight out of the box? They're definitely NOT what I would call "free-wheeling" cars, so I can see why Scott is making all his locomotive units powered these days!!!  I'm noticing this with "just" 9 passenger cars in the train. I can't imagine some folks have 15+ cars as part of their El Capitan train... which must REALLY need 4 powered units.
> 
> ...


So David... Do the pictures rattle off the walls and hit the floor when you crank up the volume on this BEAST?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Severn said:


> Retry -- so the typical pattern here is the item is in many hands between the factory and the customer, and no one looks it until the customer gets it home?


It's worse than that.... most of what we're seeing shouldn't even leave the factory... for example, even something as mundane as the electronic components of the StationSounds car being highly visible inside the interior of the car. Some StationSounds cars had those windows blocked out... others didn't. Why? Because some factory flunkie took the day off when his assembly line manufactured that batch of cars? So that part never got installed? 

And that's the simple stuff. What about couplers that don't stay coupled? Or passenger car bodies that are GLUED to the frame when they should only be screwed into the frame, so customers can easily access the interiors to install passengers -- something Lionel management advertised would be the case since they stopped providing their own passengers? Or what about steam locomotives that don't run smoothly, like the Moguls? Or products whose paint-schemes "as built" differ _significantly_ from what's been illustrated in the catalog?

*The bottom line is Lionel Stateside isn't involved enough in overseeing the manufacturing process*. Sure... it's not easy. If it were, we'd all be starting our own companies and contracting with the Chinese to make stuff for us. But at a certain point, you gotta wonder how Lionel can continue being "surprised" when products arrive in the States. Bean-counters exist in every company, but they shouldn't RUN the company. The bean-counter mentality needs to be kept in check, and right now that's not happening at Lionel. 

Earlier this year, Lionel contacted OGR to complain our reviews posted to the OGR Forum weren't giving them a fair shot in the market. And OGR caved and cracked the whip, because Lionel was spending big bucks with them for ad space. The REAL problem is Lionel's management doesn't want to OWN the problem they've created -- namely, they're not seriously supervising production quality in their overseas factory. That's pretty much a given nowadays at Lionel. Whenever I email Scott Mann at 3rd Rail (Sunset Models / Golden Gate Depot) to ask a question about something, he's in China keeping an eye on projects. And he knows his product features inside and out. Whenever I ask personnel at Lionel a question, the response is typically less than authoritative -- and that's because they don't really KNOW what they're gonna get until they open the shipping crates in North Carolina. So that's when all the real fun begins.  

At Lionel, it's really one huge crap-shoot right now. When you get something good, it's very good indeed. But when you get something faulty, all bets are off. The company really has a world of miles to make up, before enthusiasts can build up their confidence level again... and aren't fretting with anxiety attacks as they await the arrival of a new product from their dealer.  

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

SantaFeJim said:


> So David... Do the pictures rattle off the walls and hit the floor when you crank up the volume on this BEAST?


Jim, nothing has fallen off the walls yet. But let's just say I'm glad the layout was built VERY solidly! 

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

My local dealer is Gargraves. I ask him to test a new engine before selling it to me. When I pick it up I know its working.

Pete


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

All this talk of extra screws inside the chassis reminded me... My latest Berk from Lionel that arrived last month had an extra screw rattling around inside the tender shell. I removed it before testing the engine so it wouldn't fry something. I'm beginning to think someone at the factory is A) stupid, B) Malicious, C) Giving us more value, or D) All of the above.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd vote for stupid.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Between the cultural differences and lack of overall supervision, I'll give the factory workers a small benefit of the doubt, and take it one level up from stupid. My vote is LAZY. 

David


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

David, I’m looking forward to your video of your Great Northern Empire Builder set! I didn’t order them because I already have the beautiful K-Line set. I do have several GGD passenger sets and they are magnificent. And as you said, they are heavy and not very smooth rolling, but a little oil will loosen them up. 

As for Lionel, my heart breaks when I see beautiful locomotives like the Niagara, Vision Line Challenger and Santa Fe PA’s and then remember and anticipate the problems based on past experiences, which causes me to reluctantly pass on them. Where is their own sense of urgency and pride in their products?


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“So my Empire Builder train now consists of an ABBBBA locomotive configuration (w/3 powered units and all 6 with sound”

You have sound in the trailing A???


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> “So my Empire Builder train now consists of an ABBBBA locomotive configuration (w/3 powered units and all 6 with sound”
> 
> You have sound in the trailing A???


My bad, Forrest. The trailing A unit doesn't have sound, but it has smoke!!! 

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

It only gets worse.

Ro did not attempt to repair the first unit. The did replace it and the replacement arrived today. 

First thing i noticed was something someone else saw: the roof panel over the smoke units was slightly sprung. Decided I would look inside and see if there was an obstruction of some sort.

One of the body screws is frozen. I did not see this as a good sign.

Decided that i would fire it up and either live with the sprung panel or glue it down.

It does not run well. very slow forward and jerky in reverse. Heading back north. Tempted to buy one from somewhere else just to get a different batch of product. 

Crikey


I am 0 for 3.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2018)

Oh man, you really are running a streak of bad luck, Forrest. I hate to think that Lionel's quality control is that bad.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Fab, can you remove the top panel? Some have reported the volume pot is mounted too high preventing panel from closing. If thats the case it can be lowered but the shell would have to come off.
This is starting to sound like horror show.

Pete


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I could not remove the roof panel. I did not want to force it. That fact that it did not run right was the closer. At that point the roof didn’t matter.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Fab, can you remove the top panel? Some have reported the volume pot is mounted too high preventing panel from closing. If thats the case it can be lowered but the shell would have to come off.
> This is starting to sound like horror show.
> ....


Pete, that center rooftop panel over the smoke unit isn't supposed to be removable like the one over the DIP switches that's held down with magnets. The panel over the smoke unit is glued down. Sounds like Forrest got a Santa Fe unit like I did, which has since been returned. And I decided to go with a set of Great Northern units, which came from a different batch. Those panels seem to fit just fine. 

When I took a closer look at my Santa Fe B-unit, I could see that the two smoke unit ducts were sitting too high above the roof plane -- making it impossible to reseat the roof-top panel. It was clearly something that should have been caught by the factory -- never should have been packaged that way. I suspect there's a bad batch of these where the tolerances are too tight.

I've had much better luck with my Great Northern units: 2 A's and 4 B's with no sign of this problem on any of them. And the panels over the DIP switches that are actually intended to be removed fit fine.

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I like the Great Northern. Maybe I should switch. Anyone make 15” cars with interiors?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

K-Line made some and there is a set on ebay now.

http://www.legacykline.com/apps/kl/...&p_road_name=Great+Northern&p_oem_sku=K-4633A

Pete


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I am going to resist.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Progress to report. 

After getting 3 bad units from Ro and knowing that David had one, I wondered if Ro had a bad batch. I ordered one from Nicholas smith on Thursday. It arrived yesterday. Unpacked last night. No visual problems. Ran last night and tonight. No operational problems. Whew!

Got one en route to Ro and one to Lionel. We will see what happens there. 

I wonder how Concord is faring with Flo.


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## BFI66 (Feb 7, 2013)

I buy all my train stuff from Nicholas Smith. Joey is the best!
My F3 units were bought there and I found them to be operationally sound!

-Pete


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## papa3rail (Oct 8, 2016)

Your a better man than I Forrest. I would be absolutely livid if I had to go through all that crap just to get what I paid for.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

papa3rail said:


> Your a better man than I Forrest. I would be absolutely livid if I had to go through all that crap just to get what I paid for.


Same here. And I have been livid recently when I got a Lionel steamer (AC9) that got consistently good reviews from other folks but in my case had serious issues right out of the box.  Bad batches do seem to be an issue that afflicts Lionel.

Although my Dad was and I am a big Santa Fe fan, I’m glad I passed on these F3s. I gave serious consideration to a full ABBA set but with people reporting drooping couplers, anaemic smoke and non-fitting body panels (to say nothing of disappointing paint effects) I’ll stick with my TMCC version. 

But that has an issue too because the gearing in the powered B unit is different from the powered A unit, so fundamental problems with Lionel production are not really new.

What’s the cause of the current stream of problems? My vote goes to “lazy” at both the factory and QC stages of the process. Even in the era of Mike R., Lionel claimed to have US QC personnel in China carefully overseeing production. I found that hard to believe and the current stream of badly assembled products does nothing to convince me that whatever arrangements they have for QC are effective.

Frankly I won’t be taking pot luck with any more Lionel products any time soon. They don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.


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