# Sticky  Basics of Building a Layout



## Stan kolak

_*Basic tools:*_

Some carpenter tools, electric drill, battery operated also, drill bits, multimeter, soldering gun, soldering pencil, electronic hand tools, diagonal cutters, needle-nose pliers, wire strippers, tweezers, jewelers files, etc. Buy rosin core solder and a can of flux for rosin free solder. Yes, you will sometmes have to use the flux in tight places as there may be not enough rosin in the roll solder. Had experience as an equipment repair technician and used all tools related to wiring, among other fields.


_*Selecting layout size:*_

You do have to get around the table in order to work. No track should be more than 24" from the edge of a table. On a rectangle, 4' X 8', 4' X 10', etc., there should be two feet of floor space on the long sides. Given the room size, one end should be open to get to the other long side.

For "against the wall" layouts, a dogbone or horseshoe layout has to be used, each end would have the turn-a-rounds with the tracks turning into the center section and then parallel to the back track. This center section cut out of the rectangle should be about two feet wide. This would give you two track runs and room for several pairs of switches in the straight center.

You do need some switches to do some logical train runs, engine to train switching, etc. An oval or circle train run gets boring after a while.

Minimum radius for molded snap or E-Z track is 18". Minimum width of board is 38". I recommend flex track at 20" radius on a minimum width board at 42". Reason is, the larger engines with three axles can turn around smoothly. Parallel tracks on the curves need more room between them for the "corner swingout" of the cars and engine. An expert in our club found this out too late, only one train can do the curves at a time.


_*Construction Step 1:*_

Make the train table and paint the top dark brown or dark green. Layout all track on the table and run for several days to decide if this is the set up you want.


_*Construction Step 2:*_

Layout the streets and roads, allow for building lots on each side of the road. Paint the road black in the country and grey in the city. NOW build mountains and tunnels on layout allowing for all that was done already.


_*Construction Step 3:*_

Set all buildings in place, drill a hole through for lights if used. Tack glue two corners of the building in place. Spot glue trees and shrubs, usually around bare areas. Scenery can move with train vibrations, thus the glue tacking. Repaint areas around houses with the green paint, mixed with sand if desired. Repaint around industrial areas with brown, beige paint if desired. Allow for parking areas, grey for cement or sand color for worn areas on grass. Wait in time between steps so changes can be made, especially after the tunnels and mountains. This I learned from train club members who had a difficult time making changes after the major building was done.

-------------------------

Good luck beginners!!!


----------



## NYCFlyer76

Thank you this helps alot glad there are people like you out there for people like us who need some light shown


----------



## kryan05

Your right it is good to see that people are here to help guys like us.
Im also new to any forums and have a questions about setting up the contours of the base. Instead of having a flat base i wanted a base to follow a particular ground slope and contour levels. What type of base do you use for this. I have tried plaster but its just too heavy and cracks with every slight movement. 

Look forward to your reply


----------



## Boston&Maine

kryan05 said:


> Your right it is good to see that people are here to help guys like us.
> Im also new to any forums and have a questions about setting up the contours of the base. Instead of having a flat base i wanted a base to follow a particular ground slope and contour levels. What type of base do you use for this. I have tried plaster but its just too heavy and cracks with every slight movement.
> 
> Look forward to your reply


Welcome! I would try using that styrofoam insulation which comes in sheets... You should be able to easily cut it and contour it to your liking...


----------



## stuart

Why are most layouts are mounted on a pink foam board? Is that necessary? I also noticed that the tracks are mounted on cork. Why? You would still nail the tracks to the board. Would you use both, pink foam and cork?


----------



## Boston&Maine

Pink foam allows for sculpting of landscape contours, and it also makes it easy to stick trees and stuff to the layout... Track is mounted on cork to deaden the sound of the train as it goes around the layout...


----------



## Reckers

stuart said:


> Why are most layouts are mounted on a pink foam board? Is that necessary? I also noticed that the tracks are mounted on cork. Why? You would still nail the tracks to the board. Would you use both, pink foam and cork?


Stuart,

The cork serves two purposes: one is to deaden noise, the other is for a neat appearance. The cork roadbed is sort of standard for layouts: people got used to seeing it and it became sort of a perceived necessity: it's not. If you are using the foam insulation panels under your track, try temporarily laying out your track and evaluate the noise level. If it doesn't sound overly-loud to you, forget the cork.


----------



## stuart

Well actually my track is nailed to a 4x8 board covered with a grass mat.


----------



## Reckers

No problem. Unless you think it's horribly noisy, you don't need the cork. 

I just started building an S scale layout---haven't gotten very far, but you can follow the thing coming together there, if you're interested. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3893


----------



## tjcruiser

Some people use cork locally in way of the track, and then cover up the cork with a sprinkle of ballast stone. The cork height gives the illusion that the ballast bed buildup is thicker (taller) than it actually is.


----------



## Reckers

TJ, I agree with your explanation, but it's a practice I'm dubious about. I appreciate that, when done even moderately well, it gives the track very neat, clean lines. That tip-of-the-hat given, it just doesn't like any real train track I've ever seen. Maybe it looks that way in marshy country or in the flatlands out west, and is necessary to avoid snowdrifts. I suspect it's mostly a case of a progression as modeling developed: nail-to-plywood was too noisy, so sheet cork was added. Molded-rubber and shaped cork worked better than sheet cork and gradually became de rigueur for any layout, needed or not. My personal opinion is that, once you have pink foam beneath the track, cork is superfluous. It does contribute a nice look, but gives the appearance the train is running down the top of an endless dike. Just MHO, of course. 

Finally....the only rule in model railroading is Rule #1: if it's your layout, your opinion is the only one that matters.


----------



## COTrainguy

Great Post!!!


----------



## Reckers

Thank you, and welcome to the site! I appreciate having anyone who agrees with me join the forum!


----------



## TapRoot

sorry I havent really looked in the forums too much I dont mean to ask twice, but what is the gravel effect made with under some tracks?


thanks for helpin out the new guys! I may wear out my welcome I have sooo many questions...time to get on the search button.

cheers


----------



## tjcruiser

Tap,

Lots of options, with personal preference driving the show ...

1. Create the "ballast" mound (as it's called) with actual scaled tiny stones, available in various grit sizes and colors from many hobby shops and/or online.

2. Create the quasi ballast mound from pre-cut flexible cork bed that's glued down to your layout board. A few mfrs make stuff that's beveled on the edges and split lengthwise down centerline such that you lay left and right halves individually, butted up against each other. That allows for easier contouring around tight turns.

3. Combine options above ... create a "core" mound with the cork, then glue-cover with ballast stone for a true ballast look.

Pros and cons to each, as mentioned in the thread above.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## TapRoot

ahhh ic, thank you very much. The terms are starting to pop out at me so to speak, lol.
now it makes alot more sense.

cheers


----------



## TapRoot

heres a few fun pics...

1st pic - these are for switching tracks correct?
2nd pic - what is this??
last one is the lionel's I pulled out, some still have $2 price tags on them


----------



## tjcruiser

1st is package and parts for a remote control switch, or "turnout" in rr terms.

2nd looks to me (a guess) like an motorized train whistle. I see a small round opening to an impeller (fan) blade, perhaps, and two rectangular holes that could be the whistle itself.

You said Lionel ... I thought O gage ... you have Lionel HO ... neat ... somewhat uncommon here on the forum, but fun to see around.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## TapRoot

is lionelHO different from lionel? or just the gauge that is rare from lionel

I just found out my most abused and parts missing loco is my only lionel..and I remember it being the fastest and funnest to use.

sorry I just realized I wasnt in my thread...


----------



## tjcruiser

Like a lot of longtime companies, Lionel's history is a bit of a roller coaster ride. They were the "big boys" in mostly Standard and O gages from around 1900 to 1960 or so. But in the 60's, more modern "tech" toys (non train ... think space-race and rockets) started to come on the market, and toy trains took a tough hit. To compete, Lionel dabbled into HO gage which did have some growing success in other companies. Lionel's HO locos were plagued with problems, though, and they never really grabbed a solid market niche. Lionel died a slow death into the '70's, then was bought out a few times, reorganized, and is now again a thriving company. O and Standard gage are their highlights, with some American Flyer S (via Lionel) too, I think.

So, in general, when people talk "Lionel" they mostly mean O, sometime Standard, and ... in that "forgotten" manner, HO.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## TapRoot

so I guess then my question is are these things worth anything? more so than my tyco or bachmans (sp) or life-lyke


----------



## Reckers

Tap, TJ is correct. Lionel is the major American manufacturer these days for O gauge equipment. Lionel HO is less well-known, but is simply a good product down-sized. The green box, as TJ pointed out, should be a train whistle: a small impeller or fan drives air through two channels, producing two tones. You have some really nice stuff, there!


----------



## Reckers

Tap, I didn't address the value question---I don't run HO, so I don't have a clue. Right now, you are posting in a thread for "How to Build a Layout". If you repost in the HO section, you have a better chance of getting a good answer.


----------



## tjcruiser

Tap,

In terms of value, I think that ebay-searching is likely your best research tool. The Lionel HO cars look to be in great shape, and you have all of the original boxes (also in great shape), so the tally might be surprising.

You may already know this, but if you're logged into eBay, you can type in a search phrase, then (in advance search tool) click on "completed listings" ... both those that did sell, and those that didn't. I find this tool most helpful to get a better stap at a "high/low" range for value estimates.

And remember ... in many cases, if things are not all that common, that can reflect in a higher market value.

Good luck!

TJ


----------



## Smokestack Lightning

tjcruiser said:


> Some people use cork locally in way of the track, and then cover up the cork with a sprinkle of ballast stone. The cork height gives the illusion that the ballast bed buildup is thicker (taller) than it actually is.


+1:thumbsup:


----------



## cprib

Hi *Stuart*. what brand/type of grass mat did you use for your layout?
Did you use track integrated with plastic ballast? or did you use sectional(standard) track and how did you secure it(i.e. brads, glue)?
Thank you for any info!


----------



## Robes

Any difference between pink foam board and blue....besides the color?


----------



## tjcruiser

I think they're both extruded polystyrene rigid foam, and essentially no major difference. I hope others here will confirm.

TJ


----------



## TapRoot

there are grades in density

R3-R15 I think is what I saw the higher the R the more $$$

I like R5 but the higher stuff is much easier to carve mountains, less flakey


----------



## NIMT

The Blue foam is for the male modelers.
The Pink foam is for the female modelers.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
I know I'm going to here it on that one!!!:dunno:

Density is the only difference, blue is denser I do believe?
Both work great, Just do not use the tan (Name slips my mind) or white it's way to light in density and really hard to carve.


----------



## Robes

You know ya got it bad when you dream about building your layout. I did that last night.......


----------



## NIMT

Yep you got train fever! It infects every part of your life! The only slight cure for it is to build build build! :laugh:


----------



## belsenj

Just new here and thinking about starting an N Scale project, but thought I would chime in about the foam boards.

The blue is permanently compressible and the pink is not. I used the blue for my horse when she had hoof problems. Her standing on blocks of the blue will compress it down to a shell that molded _completely_ to the form of her hoof. It provided protection while her hooves healed. 

I will add that there are a couple of different manufacturers of the blue, so if that is what someone feels might come in handy for their project, do a finger test on the sheet before you buy it.


----------



## Vic Damone

*Foam Question*

Evening guys...

Whats the best way to secure tracks to foam? I plan on building on top of my plywood to assist with the scenery and am curious at to how I should best secure the track (since they wont be nailed down).


----------



## NIMT

Clear Latex caulking works rather well.


----------



## Gansett

Rather than plywood has anyone considered MDF as the base of their layout? It's the compressed sawdust and resin product used a lot for floor underlayment. Not OSB,which is the chips glued together. I've used MDF for quick book shelves and 5 years later they have sagged just a bit, 1/4"-3/8" maybe but they were loaded with books and "stuff". No where near the weight of a HO layout.

MDF is denser and heavier than plywood, I think it would absorb sound better. Topped with homasote(sp?) for even more sound deading?

Other than eye appeal couldn't track be laid down without the cork or foam directly on the homasote?

Suggestions and opinions welcomed, as Sgt Schultz said "I know nothing"

Jack


----------



## tjcruiser

I've used MDF on a couple of layouts. I find it's a great dead-flat base surface, and very dimensionally stable with any changes in temp / humidity. Inexpensive to buy, and, one gets an extra "free inch": standard sheet is 49" x 97". Couple of downsides: MDF doesn't do well if it gets wet (puddled water), so it's important to avoid spills. And, its density makes it just a bit harder to drive brads for fastening track ties.

But all in all, I'm a big fan of MDF.

My local Home Depot stocks 3/4" and 1/2" thick sheets. If one hunts, you can find 1/4" sheets, too.

Even if one has a base table with a plywood top, I think a top "skin" of 1/4" MDF could add the benefit of a flatter starting surface.

TJ


----------



## jzrouterman

MDF is also used in the constuction of cabinets, and like TJ said, it's hard to drive brads into. Not to mention how much it weighs. I use a 1/2 inch thick fiber-insulation board. It's extremely light and cost less than $10.00 a 4 x8 sheet. I choose this material because it's very easy to drive track nails into with a track hammer, holds track secure, and the nails can later be easily extracted without destroying the track. The down side to it is that it tends to sag if not adequetly supported. So to counter this, I construct a table top frame, I then lay down the insulation fiberboard and secure it to the frame with one inch sheetrock screws. 

In the past I've used other materials such as plywood, MDF, and foam. I didn't care for the plywood because the nail driving became a real chore and if I wanted to pull up the track later, sometimes it would result in destroying some of the ties if not the entire section of track while doing so. Though gluing is the best method to use with both MDF and foam, to tell you the truth, I've had mixed results with this method at best. So for me, I've just found it much easier, faster and more efficient using the insulation fiberboard. This may not be the norm, but it's worked very well for me. 

When laying track, I use cork not because I need to, or that I think running trains is too loud without it, but simply because I like the way it looks. I like Woodland Scenics foam roadbed as well. It's very easy to work with, it's cheaper than cork and looks real nice when finished. It may not be exactly prototypical, but that's okay too. I like it. 

Routerman


----------



## bradimous1

Robes said:


> You know ya got it bad when you dream about building your layout. I did that last night.......


my wife and I are just starting the process of buying a house... don't even know what house we are going to buy yet, but built my train room in it last night.


----------



## mailamaynard

thanks a lot! this is really helpful!


----------



## scanssystems

I'm sorry for off top but I don't want to create separate thread for 1 question.
I just wonder to know, can I use regular tables instead of bench-worked tables? For example I can buy in Ikea complete table for $5 and multiply them as many as I need.
What do you think, guys?


----------



## T-Man

Without sounding like a piece of spam, try 95.
You can build a larger one for less, unless you find them on the roadside for free.


----------



## sstlaure

Layouts aren't particularly heavy - so I would think that you could use any table that is stable and level.


----------



## scanssystems

Thank you! But what is the estimate cost of make-yourself bench-table? For example 10'x3'


----------



## Massey

scanssystems said:


> I'm sorry for off top but I don't want to create separate thread for 1 question.
> I just wonder to know, can I use regular tables instead of bench-worked tables? For example I can buy in Ikea complete table for $5 and multiply them as many as I need.
> What do you think, guys?


There was an article in MR about a year or so ago where a guy used Ikea shelves to build a layout on. He was sent overseas where lumber is not readily available so he used easy to find build it yourself furnature. 

This is the system he used, it is called Gorm

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S29898200/

Massey


----------



## sstlaure

scanssystems said:


> Thank you! But what is the estimate cost of make-yourself bench-table? For example 10'x3'


I'd estimate a 3'x10' table would be built as a 3x8 + (1) 3x2

1x4's are around $1.50 each, you'd need (7) for the outside framing = $10.50
1x3 are about $1.30 - you'd need maybe (2) for stringers inside the frame = $2.60
1 lb of 1.5" screws - $5.00
1 sheet of 1/2 plyboard ~$15 (Have them rip it to the 3' width, then use the 1x8 strip to patch in the rest. (put 1x3 ft on each end with the 3x8 in the middle)

Total = $15+5+2.60+10.50= about $33. 

If you need legs you could use 2x2 for the legs and 1x2 for some bracing which might add an additional $10

Total is well under $50.


----------



## Reckers

bradimous1 said:


> my wife and I are just starting the process of buying a house... don't even know what house we are going to buy yet, but built my train room in it last night.


When my girlfriend and I started looking for a place, she wanted to sit down and have one of "those" discussions: what kind of house did I have in mind? My answer was pretty brief: "We need a really good basement: large, dry, good electrical wiring and lighting. With a house on top of it."


----------



## scanssystems

Massey said:


> There was an article in MR about a year or so ago where a guy used Ikea shelves to build a layout on. He was sent overseas where lumber is not readily available so he used easy to find build it yourself furnature.
> 
> This is the system he used, it is called Gorm
> 
> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S29898200/
> 
> Massey


I can do it cheaper using this.. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50071170/

*sstlaure* Thank you for estimate! Now I know how is everything going. Thanks a lot!


----------



## Massey

I was just showing you what the article showed as the shelf system used. I like what the stuff looks like but I can build the same or similar myslef for a fraction of the cost of the Gorn system.

Massey


----------



## hoscale37

*Building a layout*

So; can anyone help me out? What do MDF and OSB stand for? 

In the process of getting materials/ideas together for a first layout... I have a few threads in the HO section.

Would Fiberboard be a good option for a layout? I want something that is going to be durable but not heavy. 

Good thread, not to be nit-picky; but would it be possible to see some photos of different wood and other building materials that folks have used so that the newer people here can get a better idea of the specific building materials used? 
I know this would help me out in getting started.


----------



## Big Ed

hoscale37 said:


> So; can anyone help me out? What do MDF and OSB stand for?
> 
> In the process of getting materials/ideas together for a first layout... I have a few threads in the HO section.
> 
> Would Fiberboard be a good option for a layout? I want something that is going to be durable but not heavy.
> 
> Good thread, not to be nit-picky; but would it be possible to see some photos of different wood and other building materials that folks have used so that the newer people here can get a better idea of the specific building materials used?
> I know this would help me out in getting started.



Why ask twice??

It was answered in your other post.

Here,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=9311


----------



## hoscale37

big ed said:


> Why ask twice??
> 
> It was answered in your other post.
> 
> Here,
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=9311


Sorry Ed, still a newbie- I had started looking around further on the forum and saw this thread. 

Hope you can forgive a newbie.


----------



## professor

I have three questions that I would greatly appreciate answers for if you will.
(1) Am I correct in persuming that when adding track to my layout that any brand of a HO grade of track will work for a HO grade train, or and soforth with other grades ?
(2) On one of my tracks my locomotive runs good, I can add a caboose and it runs, any other car, " only one car" and the wheels just sit and spin. What next?
(3) How big a track can be set up before I need to purchase my next power source and " connection track?"


----------



## manchesterjim

professor said:


> I have three questions that I would greatly appreciate answers for if you will.
> (1) Am I correct in persuming that when adding track to my layout that any brand of a HO grade of track will work for a HO grade train, or and soforth with other grades ?
> (2) On one of my tracks my locomotive runs good, I can add a caboose and it runs, any other car, " only one car" and the wheels just sit and spin. What next?
> (3) How big a track can be set up before I need to purchase my next power source and " connection track?"


Looks like this one went unanswered but:

1: HO Track comes in different "codes" i.e. Code 100, Code 83, and so on. This has to do with the "height" of the rail from the ties. You'll want to make sure you use the same code. (Some track has this info printed on the bottom of the ties).

2. Not sure without seeing pictures, but it sounds like something is binding.

3. This really depends on the power source. Are you running a standard DC power pack or will you be going with DCC. There is no hard and fast rule about length of track relative to power supply requirements. It would be better if you could post a sketch of the layout you are considering (with table dimensions). That would give us some ideas to speculate on!

Jim


----------



## videobruce

> The Blue foam is for the male modelers.
> The Pink foam is for the female modelers.


You know, one tries to think about everything and plan ahead, but I never thought about that.

I bought pink.


----------



## Alundrell

Reckers said:


> Stuart,
> 
> The cork serves two purposes: one is to deaden noise, the other is for a neat appearance. The cork roadbed is sort of standard for layouts: people got used to seeing it and it became sort of a perceived necessity: it's not. If you are using the foam insulation panels under your track, try temporarily laying out your track and evaluate the noise level. If it doesn't sound overly-loud to you, forget the cork.


I never thought of using cork or foam panels thanks for the ideas


----------



## spoil9

Quick question...

How would I refer to the "skirt" that goes under a layout to hide shelves, boxes, etc that is under the layout?

Any suggestions to read pros/cons of each method? IE: Curtain vs wood doors vs leaving it open etc


----------



## sstlaure

That would be a fascia. I've got a mixed bag on my layout, some open shelving and some enclosed 1/8" hardboard that will eventually get painted. It all depends on what you need. With this hobby you can never have enough storage space. Curtains do a nice job of hiding clutter when other people come to see the layout, but typically my layout is a work in progress with stuff everywhere so I just try to straighten up a bit and leave the mess alone. All depends on your preferences really.


----------



## spoil9

Thank you.
To keep my fiance happy, I need to hide the clutter so this will be an early adaption on the layout after the frame is built. Of course this wont get started for another couple years, I just like planning ahead


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Our modular club uses a cloth skirt and Velcro to attach to the fascia of the modules.


----------



## weinson

*Crossover Figure 8 with one connection*

So, I am just getting started with my son, and need some basic help on wiring (we have an Atlas HO scale set).

We started with a simple figure 8 ... and now wanted to expand to add two switches and connect one loop of the figure 8 with the other loop [like in the pictures shown in this post http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=12049 - but with only one connection between the loops, instead of two].

We have the basic starter kit, with the simple controller (not a digital command system). Can someone help educate me as to how to set up the wiring (and what I may need to buy) to get the train to run? 

No surprise, if I connect all the tracks without isolating a section, the line shorts and will not run a train. I know I need to isolate one section of track and get it power, but not sure if I need a switch or what to do that.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Southern

This and four insulated rail joiners is all you need.











You will run the power wires through this switch and then to the figure eight and to the isulated new section.


----------



## weinson

Thanks for the quick reply ... three questions:

1) what is this part called? (I realize a newbie question, but so when I go to the store or online I know what to look for)

2) will it be readily apparent how to wire to my isolated section? (if not, directions appreciated)

3) will I have to switch the switch as the train is running, depending on which way the train is facing?



Southern said:


> This and four insulated rail joiners is all you need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will run the power wires through this switch and then to the figure eight and to the isolated new section.


----------



## weinson

*still need help*

I have the controller now, but still need help figuring out how to set up the wiring.. guidance appreciated. I wired the loop and my isolated section, but the train still stops when its wheels are split on each side of the isolated section. Should I stagger the plastic joiners? The diagram on the back of the controller was not helpful to me


----------



## Deks

Hi, I'm brand new to the forum and model railroading. Question? Is there an internet site giving some suggested rail layouts? I am trying to draw some myself, but would love to see some suggested setups. Thanks!


----------



## DonR

Deks

Did you check the LAYOUT DESIGN FORUM
here on Model Train Forum?

Tons of ideas and layouts to see.

Don


----------



## Deks

Thanks Don. Nope. I will check there right away. Guess there is more help available at my fingertips than I thought. Very appreciative!


----------



## choochoo.72

I second the recommendation of taking advatage of this forum. Good stuff in every nook and cranny.


----------



## Fleischmannman

*limits on track length? garden build possibly?*

hey guys i was thinking of setting up a HO scale in my little backyard, but im not sure if thats very wise, as it does rain heavily on occasion here in australia


----------



## choochoo.72

Hi not sure what is available there in Australia, but here in the US I know of nothing avaialbe commercially in HO that is suitable for outdoor use. Steel tracks rust quickly and motors and gearboxes need to be sealed at very minimum. Also trackwork has to be leveled and that is tough in a yard setting. Is HO all that is available for you?


----------



## Fleischmannman

i have about 90 meters of HO track, and i think the tracks are aluminium, as i left the box of tracks in a wet corner in the shed... whoops. it had that grey corrosion on it, ill post a pic if i can figure out how


----------



## Fleischmannman

heres a photo of one of the track pieces left in the shed... i guess its aluminium coz of those deposits?!?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

choochoo.72 said:


> Hi not sure what is available there in Australia, but here in the US I know of nothing avaialbe commercially in HO that is suitable for outdoor use. Steel tracks rust quickly and motors and gearboxes need to be sealed at very minimum. Also trackwork has to be leveled and that is tough in a yard setting. Is HO all that is available for you?


Nickel silver track is suitable for outdoor use. There are a number of large outdoor O-gauge layouts using Atlas track, and they've been in operation for many years.


----------



## Templar

I got the bug real bad!!!!!!!!! I'm designing the water from the Ambassador Bridge to the Detroit Windsor tunnel. I just got a divorce so I moved into a flat not far from downtown Detroit. My whole living room is going to be a train set. Everybody on this site has been very helpful. Big Red from New Jersey gave me some great pictures of the Detroit Union Station in the late 30"s That's going to be my area. I'm so geeked 52 years old and I feel like a little kid.


----------



## golfermd

Templar said:


> I got the bug real bad!!!!!!!!! I'm designing the water from the Ambassador Bridge to the Detroit Windsor tunnel. I just got a divorce so I moved into a flat not far from downtown Detroit. My whole living room is going to be a train set. Everybody on this site has been very helpful. Big Red from New Jersey gave me some great pictures of the Detroit Union Station in the late 30"s That's going to be my area. I'm so geeked 52 years old and I feel like a little kid.


Me too, although add 10 years. I rationalize my behavior by saying it's all for my grandson. My partner begs to disagree. :laugh:


----------



## Willyrail1

*pink foam*



stuart said:


> Why are most layouts are mounted on a pink foam board? Is that necessary? I also noticed that the tracks are mounted on cork. Why? You would still nail the tracks to the board. Would you use both, pink foam and cork?


If no one else has told you, you could try to use ceiling tile. I'm not sure what the difference is in price but if you go into your local building shop and look for damaged ceiling tile, they will usually sell it to you for 1/2 price. 
There is nothing written in stone in this hobby.. What ever you choose to use for sub-roadbed is up to you but I would use cork roadbed as it helps quiet the sound of the train rolling atop as well as it gives your ballast shape. Just my 2 cents worth!
W.R 1


----------



## DJones73

I usually take out my train set around Christmas time and place it on the floor around the tree. Does it make sense to buy a 4x8 pink foam board and run it on that? Do I need it to rest on plywood?

I'm really a beginner and would love to get more into building a nice layout. I figure this could be a good, easy way to get started and allow me to experiment with terrain and scenery.


----------



## DonR

You usually have fewer derailments when your track is attached
to something more stable than carpet. The foam would be
ideal. It's light, easy to handle, and sound deadening.

Don


----------



## flyboy34

Getting ready to start a layout (HO) and am interested in utilizing 2" foam board over benchwork. 

1. How do you secure the foam sheeet to the benchwork. (do not plan on utilizing plywood underlayment) If glued what is the preferred adhesive?

2. Once the foam board is layed on the benchwork and you proceed to the the track portion of the layout, what is the preferred adhesive for securing track to the foam board?


----------



## videobruce

I used foamboard adhesive, but latex caulk will work.

Then clear latex caulk (white when dispensed, turns clear when setup) for the cork roadbed, then I used a medium thickness CA for the track. caulk was too way too messy (actually a disaster with double & triple track).

This stuff is excellent;
http://www.mercuryadhesives.com/products.htm#M300M


----------



## spoil9

Im a fan of Liquid Nails for all my model train board gluing needs.


----------



## flyboy34

spoil9 said:


> Im a fan of Liquid Nails for all my model train board gluing needs.


Including the track to cork roadbeds?


----------



## scaleddown

I am thinking of building a HO layout in the garage. It can get hot in there during the summer months (89-93 degrees F during the day ~ dry California heat). Can this have a devastating effect on the set regarding electrical, track expansion, etc.?


----------



## videobruce

Yes; heat kinks. 
How cold does it get in the Winter time?


----------



## spoil9

flyboy34 said:


> Including the track to cork roadbeds?


Yes, including the track to the cork.


----------



## golfermd

Our club has homasote as the bed, and I believe they are regretting it. It's so sensitive to temperature and humidity. We had an Ops night last night at the club so I went early (for traffic purposes, I live in the DC area) and ran my M1 around the whole layout with no issues at all. Then, when everyone showed up the temperature rose. Wow, what a difference. All the turnouts and switches caused us all sorts of problems. When I build my layout later this year I'm going to be using treated plywood and foam to minimize those effects.


----------



## FarmerJim

I am new to the site.
Not quite sure how to post a new thread, however I would like to gather opinions on bench height. I know there's lots of opinions but most seem to be opting for very high, armpit height track bench heights?


----------



## D&J Railroad

FarmerJim said:


> I am new to the site.
> Not quite sure how to post a new thread, however I would like to gather opinions on bench height. I know there's lots of opinions but most seem to be opting for very high, armpit height track bench heights?


I takes a lot more wood to put the track level at arm pit level; to stablize it as well as get it to the higher levels. It's really all based upon who ya want to be able to access it. For some, its set down low so the kiddies can play with the trains. For others, it's set higher so tired old knees and backs don't have to bend so far to check wheels, couplers and car numbers.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Remember that higher also means the reach is less so that you have to allow for that in the width of the layout.


----------



## FarmerJim

Thanks for reply guys. I have gone from as low as 34" up to 47" and I just can't seem to settle on this one.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Our modular club modules are 40" to the top of the rails.


----------



## FarmerJim

Thanks gunner. I guess I simply need to make a decision and go for it.


----------



## DonR

You are going to spend a good deal of time doing
wiring chores under your layout. Be sure you can
sit up comfortably with the height you select. I measured
myself sitting in a working position. As a result I
decided on 38". An inch or two higher would not
be too much.

Don


----------



## scaleddown

removed question.


----------



## scaleddown

What the story between PIKO and PECO track/turnout brands? Are they the same company? If not, which is best to use? Any recommendations?


----------



## Big Ed

FarmerJim said:


> I am new to the site.
> Not quite sure how to post a new thread, however I would like to gather opinions on bench height. I know there's lots of opinions but most seem to be opting for very high, armpit height track bench heights?


Jim if you want to start a new post, click forum home, then find the OO forum and click.
Then up top click this,








Then make up a title, and type away with your question.

All the forums work this way, but I picked the OO because you listed that in your profile.
If by any chance you pick the wrong forum, I am sure the forum police will change it to the proper forum.:smokin:


----------



## CTValleyRR

I finally got around to reading though the whole 10 pages of this thread, so I'll put my $.02 in now.

First of all, I remember 40 years ago, starting my first layout with my father, how much we would have given for a central location to get advice and help. Having been back in the hobby for 10ish years now, I really love helping newcomers.

That said I think there is a dangerous precedent here, and unfortunately, it comes out in the very first post, and that is the tendency to be directive instead of advisory. There are very few rights and wrongs, or bests and worsts in this hobby. Granted, for a newcomer some guidance on what order to proceed can be helpful, so long as we say, "here is a method that will work", not "this is the way to do it."

So if you're just starting out, remember that. Do what seems right to you, and don't be afraid to rip it out and redo it if necessary. Many times, something that started out "good enough" won't measuree up later as your skills improve..When seeking advice, don't look for the "one true way", but rather get a couple of alternatives, and go with the one that makes the most sense to you.


----------



## Bkubiak

*Starting a layout limited size*

Got a table 72 inch by 42 inch, it is 3/4 plywood gonna be in HO gauge and need some suggested layout ideas. 
Will be against a wall and will have access from one long side and both short sides.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Bkubiak said:


> Got a table 72 inch by 42 inch, it is 3/4 plywood gonna be in HO gauge and need some suggested layout ideas.
> Will be against a wall and will have access from one long side and both short sides.


I suggest starting a new thread instead if burying your discussion in this thread.


----------



## tr1

*A suggestion on the many layout options*

Maybe you should reference the legendary John Armstrong? He is known for designing H.O. model train layouts. I believe he worked for Atlas model railroading Company. On or around the east coast area, (year's ago). You could reference his designs to help with
getting your ideas. For your model train layout. However, it's probably a good idea to use 3'sections of flex track that are nickel silver to build your empire. Regards,tr1.
And good luck!


----------



## ianb26

*Best material for a suspended layout*

Hi there, 

Just been reading through this thread, and still am a bit confused as to the best material for the base for a suspended layout. (Stored below the ceiling when not in use). It needs to be light and stable, so I've been thinking between MDF & 7mm Ply, braced with 65mm x 19mm (about 2 1/2 inch x 3/4 inch) all round and across the centre. Use pulleys and rope or wire, eyebolts. As I said it needs to be light as possible, for this reason I' m ruling out MDF.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.


----------



## DonR

I have never built a suspended layout but I would assume
that the most important aspects for your design would be:

Stability so that the layout does not bend or rack when
being lifted.

Lowest Weight possible.

A lift system that ensure that all 4 corners and the middle 
are akk going up or down evenly.

Edging to prevent trains or other items from falling off.

Don


----------



## CTValleyRR

Like Don, I've never built one. But I do know how to build a sturdy layout. I would recommend that you build a frame of 1x3 lumber with plywood gussets to reinforce the corners. Then install 5 joists across this frame, evenly spaced (16" centers). Put 2" extruded foam insulation panels (2 2×8 pieces) on the joists and build your layout on top of that. This will be plenty strong enough to support a layout, yet very light. Attach your hoisting mechanism to the frame at or near the corners.


----------



## Cycleops

And I should think you need to make sure your pulleys are well attached to the ceiling above as well! Instead of using MDF or ply for the top why don't you go for Homasote, I've never seen it but it sounds like a product we have in the UK called Sundeala which railway modellers have been using for years. Reasonably light and easy to get track pins into.


----------



## cid

Hi Ian, I think CTValley is right on with the table design!! I would attach cables about 20 to 24" back from the ends to minimize any tendency to sag in the center. Is it possible for you to install some folding or detachable legs under the frame, so you could disconnect the cables while the layout is in use?


----------



## ianb26

Thanks cid,

At the moment it is sitting on trestles. I have not yet installed the pulleys and bolts, as I'm still working on the layout. Lots of track droppers to put in and connect to the bus, as well as sort out derailment problems in a couple of spots.


----------



## traction fan

*Suspended layout lightweight?*

Ianb26;

Hello and welcome to the forum. I agree with all of DonR's recommendations.
I disagree with Cycleopps suggestion of Homosote as a building material, since it is too flexible and susceptible to warping. Homosote has traditionally been used on top of plywood as a sound deadening material; with the plywood supplying all the strength. 
That brings up another issue, moisture resistance. Whatever material you decide to make the layout from, Paint it thoroughly to seal it against moisture. This would be especially necessary if you plan on locating the layout in a garage.
Light weight has the advantage of being easier to lift and less likely to damage anything,or anyone that it falls on, in the event of disaster! That said, many heavy suspended layouts have been built. You can check out the N scale section of this forum and see photos of one.
May I recommend a material that is lighter than plywood, yet as rigid as CTR's 1"x3" framing?
I call it "lightwood" and it is made from a sandwich of 1/4" thick luan plywood(very light) and styrofoam(even lighter) due to it's "box girder" shape it is extremely rigid, and yet weighs only a small fraction of the same size conventional lumber. 
The attachment below shows the basic parts and the wood glue assembled girder. This is just a sample. For your layout table you would want to use a full sheet of styrofoam sandwiched between two full sheets of luan. For the all round edge frame, I would use 1"x2" conventional lumber between the luan sheets, with the styrofoam cut back just enough to butt up against the 1x2. Add Don's train saving walls on the outside. Glue all pieces with waterproof carpenter's glue.
Besides the basic rectangular table, I recommend using the same materials and method to build a scenic,(and structurally important) backdrop rectangle to attach to the center or side of the main table. This provides much more rigidity and resistance to warping than the flat table alone. If placed in the middle, it also allows for two separate scenes, giving your train somewhere to go, besides round in circles. The suggestion of setting your cables back about 1/5th of the table's length from either end is a good one. 

Good Luck;

Traction Fan

Attachments show basic lightwood girder and a section of my own around the garage walls layout built with lightwood arches.


----------



## CTValleyRR

traction fan said:


> Ianb26;
> 
> Hello and welcome to the forum. I agree with all of DonR's recommendations.
> I disagree with Cycleopps suggestion of Homosote as a building material, since it is too flexible and susceptible to warping. Homosote has traditionally been used on top of plywood as a sound deadening material; with the plywood supplying all the strength.
> That brings up another issue, moisture resistance. Whatever material you decide to make the layout from, Paint it thoroughly to seal it against moisture. This would be especially necessary if you plan on locating the layout in a garage.
> Light weight has the advantage of being easier to lift and less likely to damage anything,or anyone that it falls on, in the event of disaster! That said, many heavy suspended layouts have been built. You can check out the N scale section of this forum and see photos of one.
> May I recommend a material that is lighter than plywood, yet as rigid as CTR's 1"x3" framing?
> I call it "lightwood" and it is made from a sandwich of 1/4" thick luan plywood(very light) and styrofoam(even lighter) due to it's "box girder" shape it is extremely rigid, and yet weighs only a small fraction of the same size conventional lumber.
> The attachment below shows the basic parts and the wood glue assembled girder. This is just a sample. For your layout table you would want to use a full sheet of styrofoam sandwiched between two full sheets of luan. For the all round edge frame, I would use 1"x2" conventional lumber between the luan sheets, with the styrofoam cut back just enough to butt up against the 1x2. Add Don's train saving walls on the outside. Glue all pieces with waterproof carpenter's glue.
> Besides the basic rectangular table, I recommend using the same materials and method to build a scenic,(and structurally important) backdrop rectangle to attach to the center or side of the main table. This provides much more rigidity and resistance to warping than the flat table alone. If placed in the middle, it also allows for two separate scenes, giving your train somewhere to go, besides round in circles. The suggestion of setting your cables back about 1/5th of the table's length from either end is a good one.
> 
> Good Luck;
> 
> Traction Fan
> 
> Attachments show basic lightwood girder and a section of my own around the garage walls layout built with lightwood arches.


While you certainly have some good ideas to share, Ian posted his item back in January. Your welcome message is just a tad on the late side!


----------



## MERRrailfan

Would anyone know the best way to temporarily secure atlas true-track down onto foam board? I know I will be expanding the layout in the future, but won't know if I'll need to move the whole layout until I add bridges from one table to another. 

Would track nails work since I could easily remove them?

Thanks


----------



## CTValleyRR

MERRrailfan said:


> Would anyone know the best way to temporarily secure atlas true-track down onto foam board? I know I will be expanding the layout in the future, but won't know if I'll need to move the whole layout until I add bridges from one table to another.
> 
> Would track nails work since I could easily remove them?
> 
> Thanks


Hi! You probably would have been better off starting your own thread on this. Perhaps ask a moderator to move the posts for you so they're more visible.

The problem with track nails is that foamboard doesn't hold them very well, and you'd run more risk of them coming up and interfering with your layout than anything. So, if you're talking about securing it for a few days or weeks, then track nails will keep things more in place. Thing is, though, you don't really need to. True-Track holds it's configuration pretty well, as long as you're not in there shoving things around. The True Track on my son's layout was just sitting there for six months; all we did was trace around it with a Sharpie, so that if it did move, we could put it back.

I would go ahead and use adhesive latex caulk to fasten everything down. Trace your layout on the foamboard, then run a thin bead down the centerline. Spread it very thinly -- and I mean thin, just a little bit on the surface -- with a putty knife (I like to use those fake credit cards you get in the mail, then just throw them away rather than having to de-gunk the putty knife). Stick your roadbed down in it.

Alternatively, if you're going to put scenery in using some kind of plaster product (plaster, drywall paste, ground goop, Sculptamold, etc.), just stick a little under the edge of the roadbed and press it down.

Either way, when the time comes, you'll be able to gently pry it up with a putty knife without damaging it.


----------



## MERRrailfan

Thanks for the info and ideas. Greatly appreciated.


----------



## GREENEY

What is the maximun elevation climb you can run on an n scale? I am still readi g through and may find it but, i am curious. I would like to have about a 10 to 12 inch ledge built into a mountains side and the mountain climbing above in the back drop. I may also run a second line through the mountain at the same or similar elevation. Im starting with a 4x8 sheet and plan to run the front edge at zero elevationn river down the middle length wise, and a few zig zags along the mountain side.


----------



## DonR

Maybe this will help you.

http://www.archtoolbox.com/measurements/geometry/slope.html

Don


----------



## GREENEY

That will help me calculate what i have for a percentage. Thank you. What is the maximum grade i want to pull? N scale and id like to get a nice train behind it, maybe a coal train but not crazy long. Can you find better engines for pulling a grade or is it more about having it weighted?


----------



## DonR

GREENEY said:


> That will help me calculate what i have for a percentage. Thank you. What is the maximum grade i want to pull? N scale and id like to get a nice train behind it, maybe a coal train but not crazy long. Can you find better engines for pulling a grade or is it more about having it weighted?


Weight and wheel traction treads are the two main factors that determine
ability of a loco to pull long trains or get up a hill. If you want long trains
you'll likely have to do what the real railroads do, consist 2 or more locos.

Most recommend that a grade not exceed 2%. I've seen locos start slipping
wheels on less.

Then there is an unknown factor. Recently I saw my HO Bachmann Spectrum
4 axle GP30 at the head of a long freight simply slow a bit climbing 
a less than 2% hill, while a consist of 2 Bachmann
GP40s slipped their wheels with a similar long freight on the same hill.
They all seem to weight about the same. Who knows?

Don


----------



## GREENEY

On my ho setup(mounted on wall, 130ft of track) i have two locos with rubber bands on the wheels. I just noticed that recently as im getting back into repairing that setup. I didnt think of chaining two locos together. That would be cool. I will do some figuring on what grade ill have but im guessing with the layout o have in my head that id have been closer to 4%. Im thinking a 6 to 8 inch climb in about 60 inches of track in my mental layout. 2% is only 1 in 50, which is nothing really. Ill post a drawing in the layout section soon.


----------



## CTValleyRR

1 in 50 is nothing, unless you're a locomotive. Steel wheels on steel rails don't handle grades well, and adding a curve (increasing friction) makes the grade effectively steeper.


----------



## Hank Rearden

Looking on the Lowe's website and all the foam board is for insulation. Is that what people are using? Can some link me to something suitable available at Lowe's?

I haven't discounted Homosote but it is much more of a drive to obtain. Is Homosote heavy? 4x8 sheet? Saw an earlier comment about its durability, which is concerning. 

I'm just looking to create a 4x8 starter layout.


----------



## Cycleops

I like Homosote (Sundeala in UK). I've used it on several layouts. Its easy to drive track pins into and holds them well, provides some sound deadening. Also its not too thick so easy to mount point motors etc. An 8x 4 sheet shouldn't prove too heavy just a bit unwieldy if your transport is small. Unfortunately I cant get it here so have to use Chinese ply, much akin to mouldy French cheese but OK if braced well.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Hank, yes the extruded foam insulating panels are what we use. They run about $20 for the two inch thickness; a couple bucks less for 1" thickness.

This seems to be the right stuff: http://www.lowes.com/pd_338136-210-L28200LOWES___?productId=3308704&pl=1&Ntt=insulation+board

Make sure it doesn't have a plastic film on it. If so, peelif off before using.


----------



## Hank Rearden

CTValleyRR said:


> Hank, yes the extruded foam insulating panels are what we use. They run about $20 for the two inch thickness; a couple bucks less for 1" thickness.
> 
> This seems to be the right stuff: http://www.lowes.com/pd_338136-210-L28200LOWES___?productId=3308704&pl=1&Ntt=insulation+board
> 
> Make sure it doesn't have a plastic film on it. If so, peelif off before using.


Is that a better option than Homosote? 

And at 2 inches thick how do you attach stuff it. Track screws for instance. And I presume it is paintable.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Better isn't a word I like to use, because so much depends on individual preferences. I certainly prefer it, but I'm only one person; you'll probably find just as many who prefer homasote.

Any foam compatible adhesive works fine. Liquid Nails for projects is a common one. I use DAP adhesive latex caulk. You use just a thin layer -- spread a 1/8" bead and spread it thinly. No track nails or screws required, and the caulk leaves you plenty of working time to position things just so.

Note that we're not talking about using this stuff for the roadbed. For that, most of us use foam or cork strips.


----------



## Hank Rearden

CTValleyRR said:


> Better isn't a word I like to use, because so much depends on individual preferences. I certainly prefer it, but I'm only one person; you'll probably find just as many who prefer homasote.
> 
> Any foam compatible adhesive works fine. Liquid Nails for projects is a common one. I use DAP adhesive latex caulk. You use just a thin layer -- spread a 1/8" bead and spread it thinly. No track nails or screws required, and the caulk leaves you plenty of working time to position things just so.
> 
> Note that we're not talking about using this stuff for the roadbed. For that, most of us use foam or cork strips.


My Lowe's did not have the foam board you posted. I bought a 1/2 piece of plywood and 1/2 polystyrene foam board. That seemed to have no material effect on the loudness of the train on the Fastrack. Am I going to need thicker foam board or roadbed on top of all this before I see any noticeable difference or do I need something other than the plastic Fastrack? Which would make the most noticeable difference.


----------



## Hank Rearden

And do you even need a foam overlay on a plywood base if you use something like Woodland Scenics Track-bed? Although Track-bed for Fastrack doesn't seem to make sense. It just seems to me that the Fastrack is louder than I like.


----------



## Lemonhawk

I wish I could remember the reference, but on one of these forums they did some testing and determined that a lot of noise comes from the acoustic connection between the roadbed and the scenery plaster and such. Hence they isolated the road bed with some 1/4 foam from Lowes ( insulation board used behind siding, comes all folded up - look for a package that's damaged) then on top of the foam, they used Homasote milled roadbed. I'm in the process of trying this out and I must say it really makes for a nice installation in terms of being easy to work with. No track yet to try it as I'm in the process of making CVT turnouts first.


----------



## Hank Rearden

Lemonhawk said:


> I wish I could remember the reference, but on one of these forums they did some testing and determined that a lot of noise comes from the acoustic connection between the roadbed and the scenery plaster and such. Hence they isolated the road bed with some 1/4 foam from Lowes ( insulation board used behind siding, comes all folded up - look for a package that's damaged) then on top of the foam, they used Homasote milled roadbed. I'm in the process of trying this out and I must say it really makes for a nice installation in terms of being easy to work with. No track yet to try it as I'm in the process of making CVT turnouts first.


Not quite sure I follow. What do you mean by isolating the roadbed? At the moment I have a 1/2 inch piece of plywood covered with a 1/2 inch foam board. Any road bed placed on the top of this would be 'isolated', right?

Using my example, you are suggesting that I then make my roadbed out of Homasote or use Homasote in lieu of foam board.


----------



## Lemonhawk

What was talking about was removing track noise from getting to the scenery and acting like a sound board. To me, you would have acoustic isolation by using the foam and roadbed. I think the reason the reason for the 1/4 flexible foam was that it was a lot easier to use in terms of following elevation contours. They implied some better sound isolation qualities than rigid foam board. Like I've said I'm just trying this out myself. I had parts of my layout where I had rigid foam and cork road bed and parts with plywood and cork roadbed and it seemed to me neither did much in terms of sound reduction. Since I wanted to try CVT track I've removed all the previous roadbed and flex track and am replacing it with the 1/4 foam, Homasote roadbed. I just liked the way it all went down on my existing frame work compared to using cork.


----------



## Hank Rearden

Looks like I can get a 4x8 1/2 inch thick sheet of Homasote for $28.07. I think I'm getting to the point where I might get that in lieu of the foam board I have. 1/2 inch of plywood, topped with 1/2 inch of Homasote, and then lay some Track-bed on the Homasote surface that I should be addressing the noise issue as much as possible. 

The Homasote would be the foundation for the whole layout and supported at the bottom by the plywood.

This seems like the formula I will end up with based on everyone's input that has all been appreciated.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Hank -- reading the last couple of posts, you've suddenly gone off in an entirely different direction. When we're talking extruded polystyrene foam insulating board (it's the same stuff, even though they may not sell the thicker sizes in your area), we're talking about the physical structure of the layout area, not sound deadening.

My layout is built of 2" foam panels laid over L-girder joists on 18" centers. No plywood or anything else underneath.

My previous one was made of 1/2" plywood, with foam only where I wanted terrain relief. You could conceivably use any hard material (homasote, OSB, plexiglass) here, but wood is best for holding fasteners and is easiest to work with. Homasote may not be rigid enough for this base -- the last thing you want is your base flexing with your layout on top.

You can also just use open grid -- where a rigid roadbed (like homasote or plywood) is attached to the joist structure of the table by series of cleats and risers.

One of the drawbacks of plastic roadbed track is that it does sound rather loud. No matter what you make the structure of your table out of, it's going to be loud, because it's the open area under the roadbed which allows vibrations to resonate.

On my son's layout, we were able to reduce the noise level significantly (but not eliminate it) by using Woodland Scenics foam roadbed to stuff under the plastic roadbed (it is concealed by the plastic) to dampen the vibrations. Rubber based adhesives will also help to deaden the vibrations. 

The only way I know to completely eliminate the noise is to eliminate the plastic, and lay your track directly on cork or foam roadbed (which means you wouldn't be using Fastrack....).


----------



## Hank Rearden

CTValleyRR said:


> Hank -- reading the last couple of posts, you've suddenly gone off in an entirely different direction.


That does sound like something I would do. 


CTValleyRR said:


> When we're talking extruded polystyrene foam insulating board (it's the same stuff, even though they may not sell the thicker sizes in your area), we're talking about the physical structure of the layout area, not sound deadening.
> 
> My layout is built of 2" foam panels laid over L-girder joists on 18" centers. No plywood or anything else underneath.


This is probably my a-ha moment. I didn't realize that the foam board by itself was essentially the table top. I was thinking that there needed to be something rigid underneath (plywood). I guess in my mind I was thinking the foam wouldn't be sturdy enough on it's own but I guess with the supports and such that is more than sufficient.



CTValleyRR said:


> My previous one was made of 1/2" plywood, with foam only where I wanted terrain relief. You could conceivably use any hard material (homasote, OSB, plexiglass) here, but wood is best for holding fasteners and is easiest to work with. Homasote may not be rigid enough for this base -- the last thing you want is your base flexing with your layout on top.


So when most people talk about using Homasote, they are talking about just the track-bed and not the main surface of the entire layout? I've never seen Homasote to know exactly what it looks/feels like to fully understand how it differs from foam. I just want to get started with something that will quiet the track noise as much as possible and I think switching away from Fastrack will do wonders towards that goal.



CTValleyRR said:


> You can also just use open grid -- where a rigid roadbed (like homasote or plywood) is attached to the joist structure of the table by series of cleats and risers.
> 
> One of the drawbacks of plastic roadbed track is that it does sound rather loud. No matter what you make the structure of your table out of, it's going to be loud, because it's the open area under the roadbed which allows vibrations to resonate.
> 
> On my son's layout, we were able to reduce the noise level significantly (but not eliminate it) by using Woodland Scenics foam roadbed to stuff under the plastic roadbed (it is concealed by the plastic) to dampen the vibrations. Rubber based adhesives will also help to deaden the vibrations.
> 
> The only way I know to completely eliminate the noise is to eliminate the plastic, and lay your track directly on cork or foam roadbed (which means you wouldn't be using Fastrack....).


I'm seriously considering switching to the Atlas track and perhaps use some Woodland Scenics track-bed. I've never been a fan of the look of the Fastrack although I understand why it's popular.


----------



## CTValleyRR

It's not wrong to put plywood under the foam -- many do, if only for the convenience of mounting under-table switch machines. But it's not necessary. 2" foam supported by 1x3 L-girder joists on 18" centers will support my weight (225 lbs). I can dent the foam, but not break it. One other nice thing about foam is that it's easy to carve down into to make relief (streams, gullies, drainage ditches) below the track level

The most common use of homasote is as a roadbed material. It holds fasteners better than cork or foam, but it's harder to work with and has the least sound-deadening ability.

I won't say yea or nay on switching track types. My son's layout is made using Atlas TruTrack, a code 83 HO roadbed track. It's fairly idiot proof, and makes it hard to screw up track geometry. I made my original layout with sectional track, my current with flextrack. They all have their pros and cons. I will observe though, that if minimal noise is high on your list of "must haves", roadbed track is probably not the right choice.


----------



## joshuacrsb

*Total newbie...*

Hi all,
I have just began research into model trains and the amount of tracks to choose from is kind of overwhelming. Which track would be best for a long term project? And why? 

Thanks guys!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Can we start with what scale you'll be modeling?


----------



## joshuacrsb

I was thinking about doing S-scale (1:64). I think that's how you say it.


----------



## CTValleyRR

joshuacrsb said:


> I was thinking about doing S-scale (1:64). I think that's how you say it.


If you do that, you will be building a lot of your stuff from scratch. A lot of S scale modelers hand lay their track. Maybe this is right up your alley, but it also might be more than you want to buy into.

As far as I know, the only pre-made track available in S is either Lionel or MTH. Most of that has plastic roadbed attached to it. MTH offers S scale flex track, but no turnouts without the roadbed (you MIGHT be able to pull the roadbed off -- maybe someone who has actually used it can weight in.


----------



## MikeB

Hello all, I'm trying to get back into model train after 20+ years. My set is HO scale on a 4x7 sheet of plywood. I have tracks layed out where I'm pretty sure I want them. My old set was built the same way with the tracks on cork roadbed. I was going to do the same until I started reading this thread, and started thinking of laying down a foam board. The main reason is that I want to model a smal pond, and seeing the thread about lakes made me think to go this route. This way I can carve a pong in the foam instead of cutting a hole in the table. 

I've enclosed a picture of my planned layout. So far my plans are: a pond in the lower left corner outside of the tracks, an impression of a grass airport in the upper right corner. All I'll be able to do is place 1 airplane and a runway that would run off the edge of the table. In the top of the picture will be a mountain with the outside track running through a tunnel, and in inside track running along the base of the mountain. In the center of the layout will be a park like setting with a refreshment stand and a small (sandlot) type ball field. 

I'm also looking to run 2 trains, with the inside and out side tracks separated. I'd also like to be able to switch a train from one set of tracks to the other set of tracks. I'll have to read through the wiring book I bought to remember how to do that. I plan on using my old throttle system to power everything. 

Just looking for opinions on how my ideas sound. 

Thanks,
Mike B


----------



## DonR

The picture shows a 4 turnout setup that is effectively a double crossover which
would permit you to switch trains back and forth between the two ovals.

You may want to add more spur tracks for industries. That would give you
the opportunity to do some switching when trains going around in
circles gets boring.

You may also want to use insulated joiners on at least one of the spur tracks
that is powered through an on/off switch. You could park a loco there and
turn it off so you can run your other trains.

You would also need to use insulated joiners between the turnouts that
connect the two ovals. Each of the ovals would need it's own power pack and
it is important that both ovals be of the same polarity. It would be best
if each oval could be powered by either power pack using a double pole double
throw switchs.

Don


----------



## CTValleyRR

So, Mike, welcome!

The technique of "suggesting" larger structures and areas by locating them at the edge of the layout or against a backdrop is tried and true. It can be very rewarding, and will save a lot of space.

Your idea for the center of the layout is interesting, too.

One thing I notice is that there isn't really much to DO on the layout other than make a train go around. While that's fine if that's what appeals to you, you need to make sure that you won't get bored with it. Many newcomers do.

Lastly, you notice from Don's response how much complexity you're introducing by trying to run two trains on two tracks in DC. Since you're just coming back into the hobby, I recommend that you investigate DCC (Digital Command Control). A lot has changed since you left the hobby, and even a small investment in a simple DCC system (Bachmann EZ Command or MRC Explorer) will make doing what you envision simplicity itself.

While your old books are good resources, a lot has changed like I said before. I had trains as a teenager, gave them up for a while, then came back right as DCC was exploding. I was shocked by how much had changed in the intervening 20-ish years. I would recommend that you get some new books (Kalmbach publishing has a lot of them) and a Walther's catalog ($16, available at hobby stores and at www.walthers.com) and see what the modern hobby has to offer.


----------



## MikeB

Thanks for the input. I'm going to a train show here in Tulsa Saturday, I plan on checking out the digital command. Nothing on my layout is nailed down, so I'm very open to suggestions. 

When I took the tracks out of the boxes, I did find some insulator blocks on one turn out. I also have one more turn out that's behind my mountain just in case I want to expand in the future. However, that would cross a closet door, and I would have to make that remove able or hinged.


----------



## Chip

The little hollow space under the plastic ballast connected to the track is what I thought was making it too loud for my liking. I now have Flex track and sectional directly nailed to MDF, no cork, no foam, no nothin and must get several trains going with some metal wheeled stock at a decent speed to make an impression "upstairs".

Sound 'problems' are so individual there is no hard and fast solution. Depends on your floor and walls in the train room and the basic construction of wherever you are building it as much as what material you use to build the layout frame. Some floors and walls are very hard to get sound to go through, some way too easy! You just have to figure out what you consider too much 'noise' and what "She, Who Must Be Obeyed!" will put up with!

It is kinda harsh but true in this hobby, even though the questions might always be the same, the solution is seldom so, every layout even from a plan is as different as the people building them and "you just gotta find out for yourself" is an answer that is maddeningly correct!


----------



## drewbagel423

Hi everyone. Planning out my N-scale layout here over the next couple weeks. Trying to get a list of materials together first. It's going to be a 3'x6' layout. I read through this whole thread but I still have a bunch of questions.


Is this the type of foam that people are talking about using for the sub-bed?
What is the best way to seal gaps between these foam sheets when laid side-by-side?
What type of glue for foam, roadbed, track? A specific link or brand name would be great. Reading the Liquid Nails reviews on HomeDepot.com, it seems they've changed compositions and those people don't like the new formula as much. Maybe that's just for contractors though and it's still fine for modeling with.
Do you add grass before or after roadbed/track? What glue to use?
Can anyone recommend foam for use as roadbeds? I'd prefer not to use cork.
What glue to use for ballast? Does white glue work?


----------



## Aminnich

drewbagel423 said:


> Hi everyone. Planning out my N-scale layout here over the next couple weeks. Trying to get a list of materials together first. It's going to be a 3'x6' layout. I read through this whole thread but I still have a bunch of questions.
> 
> 
> Is this the type of foam that people are talking about using for the sub-bed?
> What is the best way to seal gaps between these foam sheets when laid side-by-side?
> What type of glue for foam, roadbed, track? A specific link or brand name would be great. Reading the Liquid Nails reviews on HomeDepot.com, it seems they've changed compositions and those people don't like the new formula as much. Maybe that's just for contractors though and it's still fine for modeling with.
> Do you add grass before or after roadbed/track? What glue to use?
> Can anyone recommend foam for use as roadbeds? I'd prefer not to use cork.
> What glue to use for ballast? Does white glue work?


Im gonna try to answer all your questions:

1. that foam is the most common used for the base of your layout. Personally I use a sheet of plywood and then 2" pink insulation board glued on top of that

2. I have not gotten the final steps of laying the foam, so I have not filled these gaps yet. You could use the woodland scenics foam putty, but im sure there is a cheaper product that does the same thing. Im sure you could also just use plaster cloth to "bridge" the gap.

3. To glue roadbed down, I have always seen liquid nails used. It seems to work very well, just weigh it down until it drys. 

4. Usually you want to get the track plan done (have a good idea of where you want to the track to go. Then lay the roadbed on lines you traced from where the track goes, then glue the track down to the roadbed (wiring feeders before or after), then you could ballast and add grass around the area. 

5. Im using woodland scenics foam road bed. Like i said before, the liquid nails works well with them. I picked up some cork roadbed, but I like the foam is lot more. 

6. For ballast you can use 50/50 watered down white glue. For grass, you can sprinkle it onto the wet paint, acts as a glue. (free glue that is)

Im a somewhat of a beginner as well, I have questions of my own. I hope my answers can help you out!!!


----------



## flyboy2610

Aminnich said:


> 3. To glue roadbed down, I have always seen liquid nails used. It seems to work very well, just weigh it down until it drys.


Use Liquid Nails _For Projects_! The regular Liquid Nails formula wil melt the foam.


----------



## CTValleyRR

I'll give you a "very good for a new guy" on this one. I'd make a couple of clarifications:



Aminnich said:


> Im gonna try to answer all your questions:
> 
> 1. that foam is the most common used for the base of your layout. Personally I use a sheet of plywood and then 2" pink insulation board glued on top of that


That's one of them, yes. It comes in 1/2", 1" and 2" thicknesses. A similar product, but blue, is made by Dow. How thick you want it depends on how much depth below your tracks you need to create.



Aminnich said:


> 2. I have not gotten the final steps of laying the foam, so I have not filled these gaps yet. You could use the woodland scenics foam putty, but im sure there is a cheaper product that does the same thing. Im sure you could also just use plaster cloth to "bridge" the gap.


It only needs to be sealed if it's going to hold fake water. Otherwise, patched as he suggests above is fine. Drywall mud and expanding foam insulation are other products I have seen used.



Aminnich said:


> 3. To glue roadbed down, I have always seen liquid nails used. It seems to work very well, just weigh it down until it drys.


Adhesive latex caulk is another very common adhesive. I use whatever is cheapest, usually DAP.



Aminnich said:


> 4. Usually you want to get the track plan done (have a good idea of where you want to the track to go. Then lay the roadbed on lines you traced from where the track goes, then glue the track down to the roadbed (wiring feeders before or after), then you could ballast and add grass around the area.


Man lays track on top of the terrain, then Mother Nature spends eternity trying to take it back. Either will work.



Aminnich said:


> 5. Im using woodland scenics foam road bed. Like i said before, the liquid nails works well with them. I picked up some cork roadbed, but I like the foam is lot more.


Another vote for the Woodland Scenics stuff. I buy the bulk packs of 2' long strips, because I find them easier to work with than the rolls. I glue these down with adhesive latex caulk as well.



Aminnich said:


> 6. For ballast you can use 50/50 watered down white glue. For grass, you can sprinkle it onto the wet paint, acts as a glue. (free glue that is)


Probably as many answers here as there are hobbyists. Both methods above work. I use acrylic matte medium diluted with 4 parts water to 1 matte medium, plus 2 drops of dishwashing liquid to break the surface tension.

If you're going to add glue to dry scenery materials, it's best to wet it first. I use 35% rubbing alcohol (70% store brand diluted 50%).


----------



## Aminnich

CTValleyRR said:


> I'll give you a "very good for a new guy" on this one. I'd make a couple of clarifications:


Thanks 

My two cents on the thickness of the pink/blue foam. If you use the 2" foam board, it give you the most that you are able to cut away. If you only use the 1/2" foam you are limited to how deep your rivers are. Sure you can color the it to get a sense of depth, but to each is own.

This picture gives you a decent idea of what im talking about. Here they have a thicker foam, giving them a deeper river.


----------



## drewbagel423

Aminnich said:


> 4. Usually you want to get the track plan done (have a good idea of where you want to the track to go. Then lay the roadbed on lines you traced from where the track goes, then glue the track down to the roadbed (wiring feeders before or after), then you could ballast and add grass around the area.
> 
> 6. For ballast you can use 50/50 watered down white glue. For grass, you can sprinkle it onto the wet paint, acts as a glue. (free glue that is)


Thanks for the helpful response. I'm still a little confused about the order of operations though. Wouldn't you want to paint before the roadbed goes down? If so, then you won't be able to use the paint as glue for the grass?



CTValleyRR said:


> Adhesive latex caulk is another very common adhesive. I use whatever is cheapest, usually DAP.


Thanks. Do you have a link to a specific product?



flyboy2610 said:


> Use Liquid Nails _For Projects_! The regular Liquid Nails formula wil melt the foam.


Is this the clear or off-white one? They have a couple different formulas for projects now. And do you use this to glue the track too?


----------



## Aminnich

Most of the videos I have seen, they laying all the track work down first and get the trains running, the main point of the hobby is running the trains, isnt it? 

I would advise you to get all your track planning done first, then start your scenery. 

Im not sure, so ill ask the others; should you ballast before or after painting???

Im thinking after so the ballast does not get painted on.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Latex adhesive caulk: http://www.lowes.com/pd_553863-68-11286___?productId=50149262&pl=1&Ntt=dap+latex+caulk

Any of the items listed under Latex caulk will work.

You definitely want to get your track down and tested before you spend a whole lot of time on scenery.

I think your biggest issue is that you seem to think there is one true path to success. There is a wide range of options that will work equally well.

Me personally, I do all my trackwork and test, then do the rough landforms (hills, streams, etc.) then paint. I don't try to use the paint as a glue (nothing wrong with the technique, I just don't). Then I can ballast and add scenery materials at my own pace.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Aminnich said:


> Thanks
> 
> My two cents on the thickness of the pink/blue foam. If you use the 2" foam board, it give you the most that you are able to cut away. If you only use the 1/2" foam you are limited to how deep your rivers are. Sure you can color the it to get a sense of depth, but to each is own.


I think a little clarification is in order here. First of all, you're not limited to one layer of foam. In HO, 1" equates to about 7.25 scale feet. If you want a 30' deep ravine, that puts you at about 4" of foam, so you would need to laminate two of the 2" boards together. You put enough foam on your layout to achieve the depth you want.

However, I think you have misunderstood what we mean when we say the "depth" of a water feature and how to create one. We aren't talking about the depth of the artificial water product, but how far the surface of the water is below the surrounding terrain. Water is almost always found BELOW the level of the surrounding terrain, especially in natural lakes and streams and rivers that have eroded their beds.

Simulating depth with artificial water really is about painting the bottom to fool the eye. As you say, you're free to do as you want, but I can assure you that you won't achieve a realistic looking water feature by just pouring a really thick layer of product. Moreover, if you do pour that much, the bottom will take forever to cure, and you will use an unbelievable amount of the product, and they're not cheap! You want to limit your artificial water product to an actual depth of 1/8 to 1/4".

If you're planning to completely fill that 2" valley with gloss medium, Envirotex, Mod Podge, Realistic Water, or whatever, I'd recommend you reconsider (filling it up would be a good use for some of that 1/2" foam).

As with many things in this hobby, it's usually more successful (and cheaper) to put a thin shell of realism over a very cheap core, rather than fill the space with the expensive material.


----------



## Aminnich

I didn't mean 2" of fake water, byt I meant 2" of an embankment for the river 

Like the picture in post 145, the embankment is pretty steep going done to the water, it would be a climb to get to that good fishing spot


----------



## CTValleyRR

Good! It sounded like you were planning to make a big pool of the stuff. Glad I was mistaken!


----------



## Aminnich

You know me better than that! For $25 a bottle, that bottle is all I'll be using on the layout.


----------



## Chip

stuart said:


> Why are most layouts are mounted on a pink foam board? Is that necessary? I also noticed that the tracks are mounted on cork. Why? You would still nail the tracks to the board. Would you use both, pink foam and cork?


The "cork" simulates a "ballasted" look and the foam allows for ground contour, culverts, streams and suchlike.
My first effort was just track on bare MDF, it works but there is no contour, no grades and no "hills", even though the loops are "yooge" approx 30x10 feet each and there are four of them after a year it DID get a little "boring". LOL! Now I'm going to use some cork and maybe some foam in some areas, add some hills, the loops will be a little more diverse and hopefully a little less "boring". LOL!


----------



## CTValleyRR

Chip -- while that's not bad information, the question you're answering was posted over 6 years ago. Any particular reason for dredging it up now?


----------



## time warp

Typo there CT, that's about 6 months. Not years.

Still a relevant topic.


----------



## CTValleyRR

time warp said:


> Typo there CT, that's about 6 months. Not years.
> 
> Still a relevant topic.


Sir, No Sir!

*Last post* was 6 months ago, and the topic in general is always relevant. That's why it's sticky.

The question quoted by Chip, on the other hand, was post #5, dated 7/7/2010, and was thoroughly discussed in the ensuing half dozen posts. Anyone seeing the original question couldn't help but see the answers, too.

Hence my confusion.


----------



## time warp

Gotcha


----------



## Chip

CTValleyRR said:


> Chip -- while that's not bad information, the question you're answering was posted over 6 years ago. Any particular reason for dredging it up now?


I'm in the middle of a re-do of the entire layout and am re-going over the basics. I'm including features I neglected on the first try, roadbed, ballast and buildings. My initial focus was on track laying skills, figuring out this NCE system and running the stock I had acquired, Messing with the momentum feature of the loco's and seeing how many cars the locos could pull on the flat, etc. Now I'm pining for some contour and some serious elevation, bridges, hills...a mountain perhaps.


----------



## JuniorTm3

*Getting Started*

Thanks for the in depth post. I bought a collection and plan to cull the engines, rolling stock, buildings and other parts of the collection I want and sell the rest. My wife would like a Wild West theme and I prefer a 1950's theme. I thought that I could create a layout that has a 1950's town on one side mountains in between and a Dude Ranch/Wild West Tow on the other side of the mountains /layout, thus satisfying both of us. Your post give great instructions. Should I start with the table then divide the layout and work from there?


----------



## CTValleyRR

Always glad to see things are helpful! I think your basic idea is spot on, with the added bonus that if your wife is an active participant, she can't object when you come home from a train show with a bag of new acquisitions!

Seriously, what i would do is design your layout with some kind of a scenic divider, either mountains or a double sided backdrop made of masonite, hardboard, or gatorfoam. It sounds like your primary focus will be on scenery, but if you want to do some switching at one or both locations, incorporate that into your plans. Once the basic plan is where you want it (within reason), then figure out your table / benchwork. That way your design is limited by the space available, not the artificial constraint imposed by the table.

The only thing you will have to wrestle with is that there is no rolling stock that would be common to both locatioms, so your trains will always be anachronistic on one scene or the other. Or you could build TWO layouts  !!!


----------



## DonR

You can have a 50s era layout with a dude ranch and tourist
type wild west town along the tracks at some point while
there are industries and other typical layout features
in other parts. The good thing about that time in our
country is that railroads did so many more things than
they do now. Passenger trains, small busineses that
use rail freight, icing platforms for reefers, coal to fuel
homes and busineses. And, yes, even tourist attractions.

Don

Southwest along Santa Fe tracks.


----------



## SP Shawn

good morning
anyone have a source for custom panel fabrication


----------



## CTValleyRR

You probably should have started a new thread with your question.

Can you clarify what you mean by panels? Dispatcher panels, backdrops, layout surfaces, or something else?


----------

