# China made, heads up problems with plastic



## johnnysky (Mar 26, 2012)

All,

I wanted to pass along info regarding the move of several structure manufacturers to China and the ways to navigate around the problems associated with the plastic. If you haven't seen any problems as of late you may quite likely in the near future. I build for others all the time so I've been building a lot of stock from these companies and frankly it's a bit frustrating.

From my experience thus far I can speak about Walthers and Atlas. Both manufacturers have slowly being changing their item catalogs from Denmark manufactured items (Heljan) to Chinese manufactured items (ABC) or even Taiwan. You can see it listed on the boxes by the UPC. "Made in Denmark" or "Made in China" or "Made in Taiwan"

Some of the US manufacturers in conjunction with the Chinese have been using a different plastic that was not employed by the Denmark guys. In fact Walthers admitted to me over the phone that they are using a different plastic now sometimes but still state it's a "styrene." It is seemingly a bit more "mixed" in composition with more byproducts now which causes some noticeable differences to be aware of as listed below:

1. Not all glues work anymore. Use Liquid cements like Ambroid Pro Weld, Tenax, or Testors Black Bottle liquid cement, or even Maxi Cure. Glue such as Testors Plastic Model Cement (no. 3501) Ubiquitous Red Tube cement will not work at all with many iterations of the newer plastic being utilized. The plastic is too rigid in composition like ABS.
2. The mold release is not always cleaned off anymore. Indicated by a gooey feel or shinny look. China seems to not always employ this cleaning process. It will cause problems with painting and adhereing. That problem has been coming up at Testors HQ in the form of complaints recently and they are aware of it. Kits from Atlas and Woodland Scenics as of late have been displaying this gooey feel or shinny look.

You will also notice:

1. The texture of the "bad" plastic is somewhat rougher like sand whereas older Denmark produced items are much smoother.
2. The newer plastic is more translucent and also has a considerable more amount of flash.


So basically use the liquid cements and clean the stuff off. Then you should be OK...for now.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up!:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

How about just boycotting Chinese products.:smokin::thumbsup:


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## Nolackofwanna (Mar 10, 2011)

The bottom line at it again!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> How about just boycotting Chinese products.:smokin::thumbsup:


Easier said than done.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

johnnysky said:


> All,
> 
> I wanted to pass along info regarding the move of several structure manufacturers to China and the ways to navigate around the problems associated with the plastic. ...


johnnysky, thanks a lot for the info, but are you on a Blues Brother "Mission from God"? It's amazing that you saw fit to create an account here for this, your first post. I'm not saying it's wrong, quite the contrary, but how many forums are you going to?  This must really be important to you, and thanks again, really. :thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

John,

You're new here to our forum, and you jumped in with a bang! While your news is disconcerning, your post is extremely well stated and packed with important info.

Thanks for sharing,

TJ


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## johnnysky (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm just trying to get the word out man and do my little part. After a phone conversation with Walthers asking why they changed the plastic I was met with, defensiveness, a condescending attitude, and some sort of quasi lecture about how certain glues don't work well because they evaporate too quickly etc. I mean c'mon man.  

Atlas on the other hand was very nice to deal with.

I posted on maybe 5 different forums.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

johnnysky, 
Thank you and never mind the worry warts on here they just get all spam scared when someone posts and runs.
But if they would notice you were not asking for anyones CC info or posting a link like this
VISIT HERE NOW! Or you hard drive will be wiped! Have A Nice Day!
So please post again anytime! :thumbsup:


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

hmmm. I hope there is not lead in the plastic like some of the toys from china. Then you have wire in the christmas lights . the tag that says wash hands immediately or have lead contamination. in a country where we are all concerned about kids licking lead off walls. we don't seem to care about lead in all the products that come over from there. we so need to start manufacturing things like the plastics for the trains and such again.


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## 93firebird (Dec 25, 2011)

old464 said:


> hmmm. I hope there is not lead in the plastic like some of the toys from china. Then you have wire in the christmas lights . the tag that says wash hands immediately or have lead contamination. in a country where we are all concerned about kids licking lead off walls. we don't seem to care about lead in all the products that come over from there. we so need to start manufacturing things like the plastics for the trains and such again.


Unfortunately the EPA and labour unions have seen to it that we will never see that happen.


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

*He Speaks the Truth!*

Good info Johnnysky, There has been some disturbing news coming out of Athearn about a huge Fire at one of the major Plastics MFGers and constant labor strikes costing production of rolling stock, engine shells,etc and also all the Chasis,DCC installation etc. The EPA doesn't exist on the mainland and quality control is nonexistent. Thats what makes the world go crazy....cheap labor producing cheap product. I received a memo from Enginehouse Services telling me that they would NOT be getting any new products from Athearn til 2013...no I didn't stutter!! They are so back ordered right now and can't fill orders. I thought maybe a hoax but I got this right from The owner of EHS. Keep sending that business overseas!! Talk about nightmare!


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## JohnAP (May 4, 2011)

Very good posts and thread JohnnySky. Welcome to the forum and thanks for the info!


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## johnnysky (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks guys. I hope it bits 'em all in the butt. Stuff like metal flash on chinese made forks at Target I could look past but now it's more personal in nature.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> How about just boycotting Chinese products.:smokin::thumbsup:


Good idea, we can just stop buying any model train made in the last 20-30 years.  :laugh:


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Good idea, we can just stop buying any model train made in the last 20-30 years.  :laugh:


Right, and most TVs, silverware, lamps, audio equipment, tools, toys, hardware, ...

Sounds like fun. hwell:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have to admit you started a good thread and expressed yourself rationally. This type of "soapbaox" thread nomally doesn't go well. I knew right off you have visited other threads to pass the word so consider it heard. 

So what kind of hobby items do you buy? If any.


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## johnnysky (Mar 26, 2012)

I buy the stuff as there are no other options, just the quality has gone down and I'd like to see changes as such. 

This is what I do and work with here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

I'll keep buying product...it just won't be anything backordered from Athearn. There is enough product on shelves and of course on line that would keep me happy...its just the prices that have started to elevate! We have the same problem in Food Services with the price of Beef. Lack of production, feed going to other areas(Ethanoyl), prices sky rocketing!! Lets not talk about GAS!! Like anything else,hopefully, pricing won't, keep us from enjoying our hobby!:thumbsup:


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

We really don't have a choice of buying items made elsewhere if we really need it. We no longer make "stuff". Forget all the electronics stuff, that staple of America that 99.9% of us own, the newer versions of Craftsman hand tools are now made in China.
Don't talk to me about food prices either, I hear enough from my wife every time she comes home from food shopping.
$50 in gas yesterday, didn't even give me a half tank.

I used to buy cars, cars that ran pretty good, for $50,,and they came with half a tank of gas, more or less.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Over the course of the last 30-40 years (give or take) we have dug our own holes. Slowly, products have been shipped to "cheaper" labor countries to improve bottom lines, we didn't seem to notice or care much. We complain about the "illegals" coming in a "stealing" our work, in truth most wouldn't do that job no matter how well paid. I could go on, and on but this isn't a political stump.

How many remember when Lionel moved production to Mexico, and later brought it back?


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

I do a lot of scratch building and with the "new, but less than acceptable plastic" I found that the adhesives that Microscale Decals has available seems to work. The one product they sale that seems to really increase the adhesion is their MicroPrep. MicroPrep is a solution that prepares slippery smooth surfaces for bonding and painting. It seems to "soften" the surface for better adhesion.


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

As far as these new plastics, I'm sure somebody will come up with something to clean them with albeit: modellers are some of the most creative folks I know of and I'm sure we'll get through it and find a way! Jim


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

_This is total bovine droppings!_ You need to start looking elsewhere for your news!

The truth is that new coal fired plants will have to have lower greenhouse gas emissions. This has threatened to stop many new projects, however it does not close existing coal fired electrical plants.

Consider this fact:


> *The nation's fleet of over 100 coal plants is responsible for 57 percent of the electricity generated in the U.S., more than any other single electricity fuel source.*


Do you actually think that even our useless politicians would turn the US into a 3rd world country with a stroke of the pen? It wouldn't increase our electric bills, a majority of Americans would be TOTALLY in the dark!


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Lol John very nice welcoming thread and heads up :thumbsup:  I'm not going to drag politics into a MTF thread  :thumbsdown:
I will bring attention to your Flickr account  There is some very impressive projects you have done. I just love your " Steel MIll 2009 N scale BLAST FURNACE ROW". That is just awesome, all your work is. It is very obvious you have used a few different types of glue in your lifetime :laugh:


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

I am going to offer some customer business practices in this matter.

First, the purchaser of goods and/or services from a manufacture, require that the purchaser and the manufacture come to terms on the final product (how it will be made, what it will look like, etc.). 

Second, the manufacture is bound by terms and conditions of the contract to meet the agreed upon terms and conditions. The purchaser has a obligation to inspect the goods to ensure that they meet the agreed upon contract terms and the purchaser reserves the right to return on products that are not conformance with the terms and conditions of the agreement.

If one looks back at the toys that were being made in China, that contained leaded paint, and shipped to the a major distributor in the United States. When all the smoke cleared on that matter, the one who order the toys had (1) not specified the use on non-leaded paint and (2) did not inspect the goods to ensure they were lead-free. It was assumed that China knew that lead paint was not allowed on toys bound for the Untied States (or maybe they did and tried to slip a fast one onto the buyer).

Major Untied States companies have learned how the Chinese system works, if you do not ensure that your specifications for a product are not well understood and achievable by the Chinese manufacture and that inspection is key to ensuring that thew product meets the specifications then you are out of luck.

My question is, did and will Walthers and Atlas (let's throw in Backmann.....guess who owns them) specify the market available glues must be compatible with plastic and that mold release is washed from all surfaces. Are those that have their product made in China, inspecting what they receive and measuring it against what the specified to have made?

In my past life, ligation of these types of matters will always time consuming. Once we figured out how to specify what we wanted, ligation, on such matters took a downturn.

If the quality of the products described in the above post, then the market place may well react and cause a rejection of such shabby products.


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

I appologize for my post on China and coal fired electrical plants here in the US and I have deleted it. After I did a little research I found that I was wrong. And I too don't wish to start political flame wars on this great site. It will never happen again! Thanks for correcting me! Jim


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Carl you missed a important point, it's all bottom line driven today.

Speaking of mold release agent, 1976 Monte Carlos had a steel wheel with a "rubber" fascia for styling. Due to mold release agent the lugs loosened and a wheel would fall off. DAMHIKT.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

xrunner said:


> Easier said than done.





gunrunnerjohn said:


> Good idea, we can just stop buying any model train made in the last 20-30 years.  :laugh:





xrunner said:


> Right, and most TVs, silverware, lamps, audio equipment, tools, toys, hardware, ...
> 
> Sounds like fun. hwell:


I went to Red Wings to buy my yearly work shoes the company buys for me.
I found a nice looking pair and was going to buy them. I read on the label Made in China......I said put them back.
If little by little all did this to a certain extent it would BRING BACK MANUFACTURING to the USA.


There is a lot more to be said about China. And their unfair trade practices, but I will end it here.

Go ahead buy all the Chinese junk you can find.

And laugh away, just don't forget to get your Chinese flag and learn to speak the language.
That is were we are heading!


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Jack.....I appreciate your point on greed. One thought I tired to bring forward was that the buyer of the goods (Atlas, et. al.) from China has some responsibility in the product quality degradation issue. 

If Atlas or anyone else thinks that the buying public (model railroaders) are going to accept a quality degraded product, they are wrong. It has taken the model railroaders a long time to get to the quality of product that we now enjoy.

One of the strongest arms that we have as modelers have is to not buy a product who's quality has deteriorated.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Rangerover said:


> I appologize for my post on China and coal fired electrical plants here in the US and I have deleted it. After I did a little research I found that I was wrong. And I too don't wish to start political flame wars on this great site. It will never happen again! Thanks for correcting me! Jim


Trust me, we're not mad at you. When I make mis-statements, there are plenty of people just itching to correct me. :laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> I went to Red Wings to buy my yearly work shoes the company buys for me.
> I found a nice looking pair and was going to buy them. I read on the label Made in China......I said put them back.
> If little by little all did this to a certain extent it would BRING BACK MANUFACTURING to the USA.
> 
> ...


Problem is, if you apply that to stuff like electronics, you'll be living without TV, radio, and cell phones!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Problem is, if you apply that to stuff like electronics, you'll be living without TV, radio, and cell phones!


and most trains. In fact when were the last U.S. made HO trains around? I remember some of my engines are like 40+ years old but all made in a foreign company.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Problem is, if you apply that to stuff like electronics, you'll be living without TV, radio, and cell phones!



Soon...get ready.










It is the I don't give a _ _ _ _ that is going to make the above a reality.

Buy American made, as much as you can little by little with the right trade laws enforced we can become what we used to be again.

So what if you have to spend a few more bucks, BUY AS MUCH AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS as you can.

It just might keep your grand kids from having to learn Chinese.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Made...ican-companies/story?id=13057404#.T3JfedWiYqI


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

America
Divided we stand united we will fall!



http://www.toysmadeinamerica.com/

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/toysngames.html

http://www.madeinusa.org/


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Get ready......

晚安 for now.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Never thought.................*

that I would be in TOTAL aggreement with big ed, but here I am, giving him a, :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:!!!!!

He is so right!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice sites Ed, I'll keep those in mind.  I'm all for keeping the manufacturing in the US, but I also have to face reality.


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## Mr.Buchholz (Dec 30, 2011)

This thread is a huge eye-opener. Thanks for the info, Johnny. I will keep this in mind for future purchases.

-J.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Just a thought.....mold release can be washed off using soap and water. I use the soap/water idea when every I revise (paint or add items) a plastic model.


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

gc53dfgc said:


> and most trains. In fact when were the last U.S. made HO trains around? I remember some of my engines are like 40+ years old but all made in a foreign company.


Ain't that the truth, Yugoslavia and Slovina come to mind, got one each on my bench right now from days gone by! Jim


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Good idea, we can just stop buying any model train made in the last 20-30 years.  :laugh:


Been doing that now for 10 years...:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> Been doing that now for 10 years...:thumbsup:


I can't really do that, I'd have to go back to conventional.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I can't really do that, I'd have to go back to conventional.


Ahhhhhh...you ain't lived 'til you've shoehorned a DCC chip into a 30+ year old engine...:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> Ahhhhhh...you ain't lived 'til you've shoehorned a DCC chip into a 30+ year old engine...:thumbsup:


BUZZ, WRONG! That DCC chip was made in China, you violated your own rules. 

The game is tougher than you'd like to think. :laugh:


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

John - that would be incorrect 
We do make stuff here in the States :thumbsup:

http://tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Technical_Info/Tech_Info/FAQPage.php?q=12


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Xnats said:


> John - that would be incorrect
> We do make stuff here in the States :thumbsup:
> 
> http://tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Technical_Info/Tech_Info/FAQPage.php?q=12


John INCORRECT?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Xnats said:


> John - that would be incorrect
> We do make stuff here in the States :thumbsup:
> 
> http://tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Technical_Info/Tech_Info/FAQPage.php?q=12


Look closely at all the chips on them, and tell me where they're made.


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Lol John we are talking about model trains you know. At least some Americans are working, assembling, testing and shipping these Chinese parts. By Federal Regulations they should be able to label them as Made in America. So technical is all of our Patriotic Duty to buy these assembled in USA chips to replace the Chinese analog light boards, engines are shipped with. Doing so keeps a few Americans working


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Xnats said:


> Lol John we are talking about model trains you know. At least some Americans are working, assembling, testing and shipping these Chinese parts. By Federal Regulations they should be able to label them as Made in America. So technical is all of our Patriotic Duty to buy these assembled in USA chips to replace the Chinese analog light boards, engines are shipped with. Doing so keeps a few Americans working



Yes but they are probably few illegal aliens ( Chinese) doing the work.:laugh:


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

big ed said:


> Yes but they are probably few illegal aliens ( Chinese) doing the work.:laugh:


In Pa? I would bet lunch, they would be Mexican then


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Well well well, it seems the USA is on the right track now. I was looking around for a new power pack and came across this. I signed up to be notified of the release date. Can you just imagine the money saved, selling power back to the Power Company :thumbsup:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/...urce=EML&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=WEM3063


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## JohnAP (May 4, 2011)

Stan, that's awesome! Having worked in the nuclear power field for going on 37 years, somebody took my advice! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

April Fool!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Made in the USA 


Check them out.

http://www.scale-structures.com/Page/ss_main.html


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## soccercoach (Apr 26, 2012)

Some thoughts on imports. The huge container ships from Asia created the industry that saved the railroads. The trains heading east from the coast over Marias Pass loaded with imported containers. The jobs that were lost will not return. The conditions of the Apple factory in China make sure of that. 
New to HO model trains and this forum is excellent to get the layout built. My future posts for trains only. Thanks for the advice. Had to add my 2bits to the thread.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

The N scale crowd would sure like to see those models made available.


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