# Refinery layout question



## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

I just started laying out my track and need some advise. My layout will consist of one major industry (refinery). I placed some structures I had finished to get a better understanding of where my entrance will be, but I cant figure this out. I am also planning on running a small creek. Any ideas on where my entrance should be or come from? Please feel free to move the structures, as they were just placed their to get a better view.






























Modified Dave Vollmers great plan.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I just started laying out my track and need some advise. My layout will consist of one major industry (refinery). I placed some structures I had finished to get a better understanding of where my entrance will be, but I cant figure this out. I am also planning on running a small creek. Any ideas on where my entrance should be or come from? Please feel free to move the structures, as they were just placed their to get a better view.

Entrance for a road or trains?
Where is the creek going to go?

The entrance for the plant I guess would be better last picture far right side, anywhere else you have a lot of track to get over.
Most plants have more then one entrance for emergencies. Add another same picture far left in the center top left?

Add some guard shacks and gates to keep it secure.
Is the whole center going to be the refinery?
Your not going to put the creek running through the plant are you?


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Great to see your layout coming together.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Thank you Carl,

Well Big Ed that's where I'm stuck. I was planning on just the refinery to the left where the structures are and using the right side for storage tanks and vegetation scenery, trees, shrubs, some hills, and a small creek. The entrance I was speaking of is the trucks and employees of the refinery. Dont want the creek running through the plant. I cleaned up the layout (needed to vacuum up all the mess) and took some better pictures Big Ed.


Far left of the layout.









Middle of the layout









Far right of the layout


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Wonderful progress on the layout.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It looks like the far left or the far lower right would be the best spot as you only have to jump 2 lines.
I would put 2 in one as a main entrance and one for emergencies.

In the last new picture far right upper corner, where is the rail going? You might be able to squeeze a road through them?

I don't know where, but did you think about a bridge going into the refinery somewhere?


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

The far upper right corner will eventually lead to another module. Speaking of bridges I was planning on running a elevated highway across the layout. I can just use a off ramp as the main entrance. I might just do that. I might be able to add more real estate (insulation foam) on the upper side of the track maybe about 4 to 5 inches. This might be give me some room to add a highway and exit ramp and have the main entrance go though the upper most three tracks.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You have enough foam down to go under the rail for a tunnel entrance?
Can you add some more?
That would work.

Put a bridge under the rail for the tunnel entrance, I have seen Chemicals plants like this.

I wonder why no one else chimes in?


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Yes sir I have 2 inches of insulation foam as my base. The tunnel entrance might work as well.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

A [real] underpass is extremely expensive. You wouldn't build one unless it's a really highly trafficed crossing. 

Your left side is probably the most open in terms of placing the main entrance gate to the facility. The facility will have small service roads throughout it, with overhead piping connecting units, storage tanks and loading racks. Most processing units are built on concrete pads, and units and storage tanks should have spill containment berms around them.
Employee parking for personal vehicles will usually be outside the refinery gates, and company vehicles used for moving around the complex.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Note too that you can have multiple entrance gates, although your particular facility is quite small.

The entire complex will have security fencing around it.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Thanks cv_acr, I actually want to go ahead with Big_Eds idea of a tunnel so to say. Want to construct a modern road under the three most upper tracks. Whats funny is that Asarco (which is closed) here in El Paso has a tunnel that employees and trucks had to cross to access the facility. cv_acr what do you mean by "spill containment berms?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

marzbarz said:


> Thanks cv_acr, I actually want to go ahead with Big_Eds idea of a tunnel so to say. Want to construct a modern road under the three most upper tracks. Whats funny is that Asarco (which is closed) here in El Paso has a tunnel that employees and trucks had to cross to access the facility. cv_acr what do you mean by "spill containment berms?


They are walls around the tanks used to contain a release of liquid from the tanks. 
A lot of the big tanks 100,000 and up are nothing more then dirt & stone berms.
We have 50 tanks in our yard, in 3 separate tank farms for chemicals.
We have cement walls around them.

All depends on what era your modeling back in the old days none were used. After the 70's they started but it was not till the 80's when I think they became mandatory. The EPA did not form till around 1970, and it took a while for them to impose regulations on stuff like that.

When I said tunnel I meant a road going under a RR bridge. Though I know of places that actually had tunnels.

What era are you doing?


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

"When I said tunnel I meant a road going under a RR bridge" Thats exactly what I meant as well. I am modeling modern era. Big_ed would you happen to have any pictures of these cement walls you have around the tanks?


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Marzbarz, just do a google image search for oil tank farm, and you'll see what I mean - usually low earth embankments surrounding all the tanks to contain minor spills.

Here's a good example of a small group of smaller tanks, mounted on concrete pads with a low concrete containment wall around them:

http://www.collinsequip.com/proj-gallery.cfm?image=cec19.jpg


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

cv_acr said:


> A [real] underpass is extremely expensive. You wouldn't build one unless it's a really highly trafficed crossing.


Sure, but if they look cool, this is a model. It's much cheaper on this scale.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Take a run out to Western Refinery, they are about 3 miles outside of El Paso. They have both earthen and concrete dikes and low-height burms. Tanks are normally place in a containment area with earthen or concrete. Rocks are normally not used for dike walls as they do not create a "tight" seal for liquids. Entrance into a diked area is not through the dike but over the dike.

Pipe runs are normally elevated in pipe racks. Pipes from tanks normally run underground and surface at their point of termination. Utility piping such as steam, electrical, nitrogen, oxygen, are placed in overhead pipe racks. Some product lines are also placed in overhead racks. Process areas (were crude is made into finished products) and loading/unloading areas are normally not contained but have surface drains that are piped underground to a central process and disposal area.

Openings into the refinery, in today's climate (result of our lessons learned from Sept. 11), are very limited (a refinery property lines are normally fenced with security lighting and what every else is necessary). In the past, there were all kinds of gates for entrance and exist. Today entrance is limited to certain key gates and all others are locked or have been replaced with a fence (also cuts down on the number of guards required). Staying for transport trucks and rail cars is preferred to be done outside of the refinery. If not possible, staging areas are created in side the refinery. 

I quick note on taking photos of a refinery. With the increased in security, the refinery guards get really uncomfortable when the see someone taking pictures of the refinery.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

"Sure, but if they look cool, this is a model. It's much cheaper on this scale. "
Thats very true!!! lol


Yes sir I almost go my camera taken away from guards at the BNSF yard at downtown a month or two ago. This time Ill stick to Google maps, they have seem to be helping. I did notice the berms, which I call humps that separate each storage tank.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

When I said rock and dirt that is what they use, if they use just dirt it washes away in rain storms. So they pour the dirt and top it with rock to hold the dirt in place. Besides that they are also using a large rubber membrane type of mats around the tanks and over the dirt/stone berms. They seal them all together, as there is nothing but dirt under them if you had a spill even though the containment walls contained a spill it would leach into the ground.
So everything supposedly will be contained in the event of a spill. 
Most new large tanks piping is ALL ABOVE ground, it is easier to monitor them for leaks and less chance of having under ground ruptures. These are set up with some kind of electronic sensors too that measure the pressure in the pipes, alarms are supposed to go off if there is a drop in pressure while using them.
And if your doing a refinery with a river close by you should have a second containment berm in place. It is a secondary line of defense against the liquid getting into the waterways.

The rail where the tank cars are unloaded/loaded are also being outfitted with large corrosion resistant fiberglass pads.
They would not be hard to model.








Like said all places I go to (and I go to a lot) have one main entrance in today's "safe" world.

But ALL have at least ONE more exit/entrance for emergencies.
These are monitored by cameras, locked gates and periodic guard ride by's.
By the way a lot of them also have employee parking INSIDE the facility.
But in our "safe" world they all must back into there parking places.

I think a road under a bridge would be fine.:thumbsup:


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

I speaking of existing refineries. All earthen dikes in the Gulf Coast area have grass covered earth dike walls that are very wide at the base and slope upwards to an approximate 2 feet wide top. Membranes have been used for the floor of the enclosed tank farm, to prevent spills from entering any below surface ground water.

Of interest, in Sewarn New Jersey, a few of the bulk plants have gone to concrete along the tank car loading and unloading facilities. The concrete slopes to a center drain.

Need to correct something......tank farm dike walls, if upgrade or replaced and being built using concrete....this is a industry recommendation (which makes sense)


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Thank you guys the information you provided was well worth it. I have decided to go with a road way under a RR bridge's. I will post pics when I'm complete with the basic cutting to give you guys an idea. I am running a two lane road (exposed tunnel) under the three upper most tracks. I have one exit ramp to the refinery, which will have one of the two entrance/exits into the refinery.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

These are new tanks each one holds around 6.3 million gals, ( 10 of them) notice the above ground piping and the rock over the top of the dirt berms, under the berms and all around the tanks is the rubber membrane.

































Maybe you can get some ideals from them.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Rail car loading and unloading maybe you can get some ideals from this too.
Notice the concrete retaining walls for these tanks.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Thanks alot Big Ed these are some great pictures that I will definitely use for ideas. I can clearly see what your talking about when you explained the Berms.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

marzbarz said:


> Thanks alot Big Ed these are some great pictures that I will definitely use for ideas. I can clearly see what your talking about when you explained the Berms.


These are small tanks compared to the ones on the lower forty.

I would have to convert from barrels to gallons but they are huge.

Notice the fire suppression system also.

There is a control house I forgot to take a picture of. It sits on top of a berm up with the pipes. I kind of think it is automated as you never see anyone in it. I guess when they are off loading a ship someone monitors it in the control house.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

The fire suppression, I am assuming are the red pipes correct?


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

The red pipe are for fire.

If your really want to get down to rivet counting....The tank farm walls are part of what the call the containment area. And the requirements are that the containment area must be 110% of the content of the largest tank in the containment area. Now, with that information and $3.00, you might be able to buy a cup of coffee.


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

Somebody must work around the tanks allot Carl. Yes the red pipes are fire suppression, probably an AFFF foam system they used them allot. AFFF= Aquaeous film forming foam, floats on top and cuts off the air supply and some cooling to the liquid involved to put out the fire. The way the one picture shows the connections near the tanks it looks like a bring the truck hook up the hoses and start pumping setup.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Yes, spent a little time overseeing a refinery. Now, off to Dunkin Donuts for a minimum high cost cup of coffee.


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

Took these pictures today at a show in Temple, TX. Think this shows some of what your looking for


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

Google map screen caps from the fuel depot / storage (not a refinery AFAIK) area in my home town. I'll see if I can find a photo of the old refinery.
If the images are too big, let me know and i'll resize them and add a link to the larger images

You get a couple of free shots of some container depots too, no rail access to those unfortunately.

Direct google map link to the area, if interestedhttp://goo.gl/maps/jrg8F
Mobil


















A quick streetview cap from the east and west roads



















The Shell (?) depot up the road, google can only give me the one ok image









And just for fun, the Adelaide Brighton Cement works just south of the Mobil site


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

All these photos are amazing. I have most if not all my structures ready, just dreading the pipping which is going to be a nightmare. I got fed up with trying to heat and bend plastic rods for pipe. Went out and purchased Plastruct wire that has a metal core which allows for easy bends.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

marzbarz said:


> All these photos are amazing. I have most if not all my structures ready, just dreading the pipping which is going to be a nightmare. I got fed up with trying to heat and bend plastic rods for pipe. Went out and purchased Plastruct wire that has a metal core which allows for easy bends.


Who is posting the big pictures messing up the screen?:thumbsdown:

Hey marz where did you get the Plastruct wire like that?
I searched but couldn't find a picture of it. What is the actual name for it?
How many different sizes does it come in?
Post a picture of it?

I went to their site too, but they don't have many pictures and also don't have a product page. 
You can BUY their catalog.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Yeah Big Ed let me get home and Ill take a snapshot of the wire. Trust me it works wonders when bending pipe. I get it at my local hobby Shop, around 8 dollars for 10 strands.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

marzbarz said:


> Yeah Big Ed let me get home and Ill take a snapshot of the wire. Trust me it works wonders when bending pipe. I get it at my local hobby Shop, around 8 dollars for 10 strands.


OK, I searched and came up with nothing.
Sounds great for what your doing.


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

Here is a site that carries the wire (pipe) I speak of Ed.

http://whistle-stop.com/store/product/10066/1-16-1.6MM-BUTY.-COATED-WIRE-1/

http://whistle-stop.com/store/product/10067/3-64-1.2MM-BUTY.-COATED-WIRE-1/

I also attached some photos of the pipe Im using.
Its called : Plastruct 1/16/1.6MM BUTY. COATED WIRE


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

That wire looks pretty handy for various modeling uses


big ed said:


> Who is posting the big pictures messing up the screen?:thumbsdown:


Toughen up princess 


(I kid, I kid)


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## beachbum (May 1, 2010)

Is that Plastruct stuff better than medium to heavy gauge insulated solid copper wire from HoPo? If so, why do you prefer it? Thanks!


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## marzbarz (Sep 23, 2011)

You know I have never worked with "medium to heavy gauge insulated solid copper wire". I would not be able to help you out with this question. I can say that this pipping is great though. With some good pliers etc. you can create some pretty nice 90 degree angles..


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