# Reverse loop problem with kato #6 turnout



## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

I am running DCC and I bought two kato #6 turnouts to make a reverse loop. But I've learned the #6 is a power routing turnout, so is that my problem?

It seems I have to play around with the switch directions in order to prevent a short. It seems to short as soon as the loco hits the frog on the #6. These are conducting frogs so I have a feeling that is my problem (can't say I understand why.

I have insulators on the outgoing paths on the turnout and I have powered everything else. So I can go around the loop and also cross over the middle, but I have to play games with the turnout directions otherwise it will short when I hit the frog.

The arrows indicate where I put insulators
Thanks for any help!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Did you wire a reverse loop controller (Digitrax AR-1 or similar) to the feeder(s) on the isolated section of track? Otherwise the polarity from the command station is simply re-introduced to the isolated section, and you still have a short.

You also don't need to isolate the entire section, just a piece long enough for your longest train (if you have uninsulated metal wheels on some of the cars) or loco. You only need to isolate that squiggly center section between the upper and lower turnouts, and not even all of that.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Your reverse loop is the INNER S LOOP. You should
have insulated joiners in both rails where your
INNER arrows indicate. No need for them where you
have the outer arrows. (except per below)

You will then need a reverse loop controller to power
this new isolated section. It takes power from your
main bus and it's output powers the isolated section.

The power routing or powered frog makes no
difference to the reverse loop since it is isolated
by the insulated joiners.
.
However, if these are Electrofrog turnouts
you do need an insulated joiner in both frog rails to
avoid a short. 

One question, are you using the built in frog power
switch on the turnouts, or did you wire them?

Don


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Do the Kato N-scale turnouts have any option to set power-routing and non-power-routing? (they do on the #6 HO turnouts)

Might be something to investigate.
You need plastic Unijoiners on both sides of the rail for the "diverging routes" that lead into the reverse loop.

And an auto-reverser, as mentioned above.


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

These turnouts have frog power and no option to change to non power routing. 

I have the ar1 on the isolated part of the track that cuts down the middle yes. 

I found a diagram online for my exactly layout but in order to avoid shorts I must flip the turnout when exiting the reverse loop or it will short. Then once the loco exits the reverse loop I need to switch the turnout back to the going straight direction. If I manage the turnouts this way I can avoid a short. Basically any time the loco is going to traverse the curved portion of the turnout I must make sure the turnout is switched in the curved direction. Sorry my terminology is probably wrong. 

I’ll review the suggestions here. Thank you. I read something online that having this setup means you have to play games with the switches like this. Is that true or maybe I misunderstood. 

Thanks for the help!!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Does this happen at both the top and the bottom
turnouts or just one, if one which one?

You should have to have turnout points set to
clear for the train, thus you should have no short.

Don


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

It happens at the top and bottom. So the process is like this. 

I want the loco to cut through the middle from the bottom I flip the turnout and let the loco go into it. I flip the turnout back to the straight direction after it enters the reversing section. When it reaches the top I flip the turnout in the curved direction before the loco hits the turnout. Once it passes through and out I flip the turnout back to the straight direction. At the end both turnouts are left in the straight position and I can run the loop again without issue. All is well. 

I am new to the hobby so turnout wiriting confuses me. It seems like the frog is the Crux of my problem. Maybe I bought the wrong kind of turnout for dcc?

I have a workaround by using the turnouts in this manner so it’s not so bad. But I would prefer it to work without worrying about which direction the turnout is in when exiting the reverse loop.


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

Here is the idea I have. This would let the reverser have the ability to switch polarity on the turnout itself and solve my issue.

But I'm reluctant to try this. Wondering if it is a bad idea for the autoreverser, like when crossing the frog the AR1 decides to go haywire


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

For any power routing turnout you must insulate BOTH frog rails unless they go to a non-powered spur.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Doesn't he have the insulators in the wrong spot? Doesn't he want them on the output of the turnout so that the large center section where the AR is attached is isolated on both ends? Wouldn't that eliminate the issue with the switch power routing feature?


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

Sorry I figured it out. These #6 turnouts are not DCC friendly. You can't go through the turnout in reverse unless the switch is turned in the direction you're traveling.

There is a modification that can be made to remove power to the frog to fix it.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

crackymule, the large S curve track in the middle of your layout is the *ONLY* thing you want to have connect to the AR unit! Nothing else! As it is in your last pic, you still have both turnouts connect to the AR unit. You need to move the insulated joiners so that only the S curve track is connected to the AR unit.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Deane Johnson said:


> Doesn't he have the insulators in the wrong spot? Doesn't he want them on the output of the turnout so that the large center section where the AR is attached is isolated on both ends? Wouldn't that eliminate the issue with the switch power routing feature?


Well, yes, if he has the AR-1 wired in (and that's not such a dumb idea; I've helped at least 2 people who didn't realize that they needed one), then this becomes an issue of where he isolated it.

The OP needs to isolate the reverse loop, and only that, as shown in this sketch (the heavy red lines). He could shorten up the length of the isolated track is he wished (I would -- to just longer than his longest train).


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

I only see two places both rails need insulators, the diverging route of the lower left hand switch and the diverging route of the upper left hand switch. But all power routing frog rails need an insulator too.


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

Thanks to all of you! You guys are great.

Ok, based on all the advice, I have it working!

The only issue I have left is the kato #6 turnout. I must control the direction of that switch very carefully to avoid a short. It has nothing to do with the reverse loop.

Is there a way to modify this kato #6 turnout to work with DCC? Do I just need to turn off frog power? I've been searching online for others trying this but having a hard time finding a definitive solution.

Thanks!


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Could you be more explicit with "Sorry I figured it out. These #6 turnouts are not DCC friendly. You can't go through the turnout in reverse unless the switch is turned in the direction you're traveling." Do you mean you are using the locomotive to move the points when they are not set right? As the loc approaches the frog, the phase will be wrong it its the points that are powering the frog. The points would need to be set correctly befroe you get to the frog.


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

Lemonhawk said:


> Could you be more explicit with "Sorry I figured it out. These #6 turnouts are not DCC friendly. You can't go through the turnout in reverse unless the switch is turned in the direction you're traveling." Do you mean you are using the locomotive to move the points when they are not set right? As the loc approaches the frog, the phase will be wrong it its the points that are powering the frog. The points would need to be set correctly befroe you get to the frog.


Sure! It's just as you said. That was my problem, not my reverse loop setup I originally posted.

I have kato #4s and those have an insulated frog I guess? Because it doesn't matter which direction the turnout is in if going in reverse on those.


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