# Peco Insulfrog Turnouts: Insulated Frog or Power Routing?



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I just tested my Peco Insulfrog turnouts and now I’m really confused. The “Basic Trackwork” book that I’ve been studying says all switches fall into one of two categories: insulated frogs (both routes live all the time – also known as DCC friendly) or power-routing (only one route powered at a time). They also have a diagram showing both types of turnouts with the switch in each position. 

My Peco SL91’s & 92’s seem to be a hybrid. If the switch is set for straight passage both routes are live all the time (insulated frog). If the switch is set for the divergence only the diverging route is live (power routing).

Could somebody clarify this for me? Thanks


----------



## flyerrich (Feb 17, 2014)

grpaine you think your confused! I will be watching for comments, confused also.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

How many did you test? It's possible that you simply have a short. The diverging route NEEDS to be dead when not selected so you can park trains on "dead" track when not in use when operating in DC.


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I don't honestly know much about the regular Peco turnouts, but I can tell you definitively and confidently that all Insulfrog varieties, those whose frogs are plastic (and therefore electrically neutral) ARE power routing. So, your question in your title to the thread is already showing a misunderstanding. It's not 'or', but 'and', and the answer is yes, indeed.

They have copper wipers under the points that are connected to the closure rails, frog rails, and stock rails so that, regardless of which route you take, the power will go beyond the frog. Peco makes that claim on their own website.

You can test this easily with a multi-meter. Power the points end with feeders or clips, and then meter each closure rail or frog rail while probing its adjacent stock rail. You should get your nominal voltage showing. If not, you have a faulty connection at the points. If you have a short, do you have a powered frog at the other end of a double-ended siding whose points are NOT lined for the siding at the same time? That will cause a conflict.

I always gap one of the two Peco Insulfrog turnouts on a double-ended siding at the ends of the turnout's frog rails...the inner V rails. Saves some annoying shorts.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I have Peco HO Insulfrog turnouts. They are
power routing. When set to straight the divert
frog rail goes dead. When set to divert the straight
frog rail goes dead. I have no need for an 'off' 
spur so I run drops from both frog rails to the
track DCC buss. There is no need for any insulated
joiners unless you have a 'reverse loop' isolated
section joining the turnout or have a unique need
for such.

Don


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I have to apologize, I did not test properly. I tested 2 turnouts but used the same faulty procedure on both. After testing correctly, my turnouts work exactly like Don wrote. 

So the Peco Insulfrog turnout has an insulated frog but it does not operate like an insulated frog turnout, which the book says has both legs live regardless of point positioning. That is confusing.


----------



## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

grpaine said:


> I have to apologize, I did not test properly. I tested 2 turnouts but used the same faulty procedure on both. After testing correctly, my turnouts work exactly like Don wrote.
> 
> So the Peco Insulfrog turnout has an insulated frog but it does not operate like an insulated frog turnout, which the book says has both legs live regardless of point positioning. That is confusing.


You will find a good deal of confusion regarding turnouts.

As you have discovered a frog can be live/dead independent of how the power is sent to the tracks after the frog.

Frederick


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

grpaine said:


> I have to apologize, I did not test properly. I tested 2 turnouts but used the same faulty procedure on both. After testing correctly, my turnouts work exactly like Don wrote.
> 
> So the Peco Insulfrog turnout has an insulated frog but it does not operate like an insulated frog turnout, which the book says has both legs live regardless of point positioning. That is confusing.


Insulated as in dead; isolated as in powered separately from the tracks, perhaps?

But I'm spitballing. Ever since I discovered that Atlas Snap Switches were't great, I have used Walthers Shinohara.


----------



## dave2744 (Dec 18, 2014)

I use PECO insulfrog turnouts exclusively. If powered from the points end, the points do
route power to the selected route only. I just double checked a brand new No. SL95 on the bench. Are you checking these turnouts on the bench, or already installed on layout.
If on the layout, you might be receiving power to the turnout from the frog end of the unit, 
and that will cause difficulties, sometimes.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Turnout confusion*



grpaine said:


> I just tested my Peco Insulfrog turnouts and now I’m really confused. The “Basic Trackwork” book that I’ve been studying says all switches fall into one of two categories: insulated frogs (both routes live all the time – also known as DCC friendly) or power-routing (only one route powered at a time). They also have a diagram showing both types of turnouts with the switch in each position.
> 
> My Peco SL91’s & 92’s seem to be a hybrid. If the switch is set for straight passage both routes are live all the time (insulated frog). If the switch is set for the divergence only the diverging route is live (power routing).
> 
> Could somebody clarify this for me? Thanks


 grpaine, and flyerrich;

No wonder your confused! I hope this helps.

Turnout types:
grpaine;
The information about turnouts; from manufacturers, advertisers, and sometimes from modelers, can be confusing. Let me try to clear it up a bit. First if the “Basic Trackwork” book you have says that “All turnouts are EITHER insulated frog OR current routing.” that is not correct. The Peco “Insulfrog” turnouts you mentioned in your post are indeed BOTH. They have plastic frogs which are insulated, since plastic is an insulator, and therefore, unable to conduct electricity. These “Insulfrog” turnouts are also “current routing.” This means that the turnout will supply power to only the route it is aligned for. Either the main or the siding.
You may be confusing “Insulated frogs” with “Isolated frogs.”
An isolated frog is metal, and electrically “Isolated” from all the other rails in a turnout. This metal frog can be wired to feed power to the locomotive, just like any other rail. When wired this way it is also called a “live frog.” The advantage is that locomotives with few wheels, and/or limited electrical pickup, will not stall on a “dead” (plastic) frog witch can’t feed power to the loco.
Isolated frogs, with some other wiring, (the points are isolated from one another, and each point is electrically connected to the nearest stock rail.) are sometimes called,” DCC ready”, or “DCC friendly” This is an “Ideal” setup for DCC, but the phrase “DCC friendly”, is used at random, and doesn’t really mean much. A turnout advertised as “DCC friendly” might, or might not, have any of the features I just described. The fact is that any turnout will work with either DC, or DCC. The wiring scheme I just described prevents a rare type of short circuit caused by a metal wheel contacting both the stock rail, and the point, of a “current routing” type turnout. On such turnouts, the point, and stock, rails would be of opposite polarities. If you have your wheels properly gauged, and the guard rails of the turnouts meet NMRA specs. You may never even see this type of short circuit, even if you are using “current routing” type turnouts, like the Peco “Insulfrog.” 
However, the “isolated frog” turnouts can’t possibly produce this kind of short, since the two rails a wheel might touch (point and stock rails) are electrically identical. 
I make my own turnouts, and have made both types. Now that I’m using DCC, I’m converting all my turnouts to isolated frogs, but that’s just me being super cautious. On a practical level, I wouldn’t be concerned about using your Peco plastic frog turnouts. They are well made, and very reliable. You should have no problems with them.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

dave2744 said:


> I use PECO insulfrog turnouts exclusively. If powered from the points end, the points do
> route power to the selected route only. I just double checked a brand new No. SL95 on the bench. Are you checking these turnouts on the bench, or already installed on layout.
> If on the layout, you might be receiving power to the turnout from the frog end of the unit,
> and that will cause difficulties, sometimes.


Dave, thanks for the reply but as I mentioned in post #6 I didn't test properly. My SL91's & 92's do in fact route power.


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

traction fan said:


> grpaine, and flyerrich;
> 
> No wonder your confused! I hope this helps.
> 
> ...


Here's exactly what the book says "A major difference among model turnouts is electrical, with all falling into one of two categories. Some turnouts are designed with insulated frogs so that both routes are electrically live at all times (called all-live, insulated frog, or DCC friendly turnouts). Other turnouts have an electrically live frog and are wired so that only one route is powered at a time (called power routing turnouts)". But as we've proven in this thread, Peco turnouts do have an insulated frogs and are power routing. Thanks for the help..


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Bad Book?*



grpaine said:


> Here's exactly what the book says "A major difference among model turnouts is electrical, with all falling into one of two categories. Some turnouts are designed with insulated frogs so that both routes are electrically live at all times (called all-live, insulated frog, or DCC friendly turnouts). Other turnouts have an electrically live frog and are wired so that only one route is powered at a time (called power routing turnouts)". But as we've proven in this thread, Peco turnouts do have an insulated frogs and are power routing. Thanks for the help..


grpaine;

Interesting. Nice to hear what that book says. However if that quote is typical of the advice given in the book, you might consider burning it, or throwing it away! You've gotten a lot more accurate info from all the replies here than from that book. Glad things have worked out for you.

Have fun with your railroad;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> grpaine;
> 
> Interesting. Nice to hear what that book says. However if that quote is typical of the advice given in the book, you might consider burning it, or throwing it away! You've gotten a lot more accurate info from all the replies here than from that book. Glad things have worked out for you.
> 
> ...


More out of curiosity than anything else, WHICH book, exactly, are we referring to? One of the Kalmach series or something else? If the former, I'm very surprised that they would let such an obvious error slip through.


----------



## dinwitty (Oct 29, 2015)

The power routing all rail frogs would require an insulator connector, the insulated frog routing does away with insulated joiner and you could have actually the "frogged" rail metal joinered, but this will power the point all the way down, in the DCC environment, that's close to the flanges but if they move away far enough it won't short. So I dunno about power routing insulated frog turnouts.

The club I was in did turnouts right, all hand made, the point rails were always powered to the near rail and did not reverse polarity, the switch machines which were under the layout were power and hold rotating selenoids with a wire up to the turnout to move the points. The rail was dremel cut towards the frog and the selenoid changed the frog polarity. No power loss thru the switch. This is Pre-DCC. It worked.

You have to treat your turnouts individually and know what and where you are doing, the switch makers are being simplistic for their plastic frog turnouts for the snap trackish track layers, but the real model railroader will take the detail to the Nth degree and know what they are doing.

My gaffe is to stick with all rail frogs, but I have circumstances where I may use a plastic frog turnout. Know your layout plan, use the turnout you need understand what is out there.


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> More out of curiosity than anything else, WHICH book, exactly, are we referring to? One of the Kalmach series or something else? If the former, I'm very surprised that they would let such an obvious error slip through.


Yes, it is the Kalmbach Basic Trackwork for Model Railroaders, 2nd edition, page 44; one of their Essential Series.


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I agree, it can be confusing, those terms.

Isolated = potentially live, but severed from the rest of the rails in the turnout. It can be made live (to help those small, short steamers or yard switcher diesels like the NW or SW series).

Isolated also = points rails and their adjacent stock rails are both powered and live all the time. So, left point and left stock rail next to it have the same neg or pos voltage...depending on your wiring and which output terminals on the power supply/controller you have each wire connected to.

Insulated = dead. Period. Probably plastic, but it could be metal rails. I believe some of the Atlas turnouts are that way, and some users resort to drilling into the metal from below, inserting a small tapping screw, and solder a feeder to it. That makes the frog live. But the frog can only have one (1) polarity at a time for this to work. So, that one tiny wire feeding the frog has to be connected to a polarity reverser that works commensurately (or you have to do it manually!) with the points as they are moved side-to-side.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Basic Trackwork book*

ooopps


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

DonR said:


> I have Peco HO Insulfrog turnouts. They are
> power routing. When set to straight the divert
> frog rail goes dead. When set to divert the straight
> frog rail goes dead. I have no need for an 'off'
> ...


Don, just for clarification, adding drops to the 2 frog rails will also power the closure rails because the Insulfrog has jumpers connecting the frog rails to the closure rails. Basically you're overriding (defeating) the power routing feature, correct? 

The medium radius Peco turnouts have one area under the rails where the tie connectors are removed, exposing the rails from below, which would allow for short jumpers to be soldered between the stock rails and closure rails. I was thinking about powering the frog rails this way but that means the very thin factory jumpers between the closure and frog rails would be required to carry the current to the frog rails and beyond. I think your approach is better so the thin factory jumpers only have to power the closure rails. I guess it couldn't hurt to do both. 

But the frog itself will always be dead. Since the frog is so short, is it necessary to also power the frog?


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, power routing is defeated by adding the
frog rail power drops. I don't have a need to use the power routing function of my Peco Insulfrogs so I do, as mentioned, run drops from both frog rails. That assures power always on
in my spurs. The frog is plastic. Insulfrogs cannot
be powered. All wheel powered
locos should have no problem with the frog. A few small
4 wheel locos may experience loss of current when
going thru the turnout however. Some cheaper older
locos may have power pickup on only one truck. These
should be updated with wipers on the truck not so 
equipped. I don't have either above type loco so I never
see any pausing, light flickering or stopping on
my Pecos.

Don


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

DonR said:


> Yes, power routing is defeated by adding the
> frog rail power drops. I don't have a need to use the power routing function of my Peco Insulfrogs so I do, as mentioned, run drops from both frog rails. That assures power always on
> in my spurs. The frog is plastic. Insulfrogs cannot
> be powered. All wheel powered
> ...


Thanks Don, that makes perfect sense. Another day or two and I'll be laying some track.


----------



## JackTS (Sep 3, 2015)

DonR said:


> Yes, power routing is defeated by adding the
> frog rail power drops. I don't have a need to use the power routing function of my Peco Insulfrogs so I do, as mentioned, run drops from both frog rails. That assures power always on
> in my spurs. The frog is plastic. Insulfrogs cannot
> be powered. All wheel powered
> ...


Don Excuse my rather dumb question but I am trying to learn to do things right after making many mistakes on my first return attempt to the hobby last year. I have a DCC layout and Peco turnouts. following your advise above I want to run drops from Frog Rails to bus. My picture below depicts my understanding of the procedure. Bus is red for right track. Black for left. 
Just a red drop to one frog rail that continues straight and a black to the divergent frog rail?


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jack

You are correct. Those drops to the buses will keep
your turnout connected rails powered regardless of how
the Peco points are set.

Don


----------



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I powered my Peco Insulfrog frogs by soldering a jumper between the stock rails and closure rails. The medium turnouts already have open spots in the plastic ties. The small turnouts only have one open spot so you have to cut out the adjoining spot. The factory installed wires power the frog as if they were power routing except both are hot. They all seem to work OK so far.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Your idea makes it easy if you do it before installation. If the Peco
is already ballasted in it would be better to use the
frog rail track drops to bus.

Don


----------

