# Lionel very old box value



## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi,
Bought some trains and a very old Lionel set box came with it. It has some old track in it and a old railroad sign. From my research it appears to be 80 + years old. I cannot find any reference to it in books or on line. It has a couple of boys playing with old trains on the cover and the side label says outfit number "SPECIAL 1" . Inside the box cover it is stamped 
234T and then the number 30. It is in very good condition with all the staples and no tears. On guy told me he thinks it is a very special "one of " boxes. He could not find it in any of his books either. Anyone know anything about this?

Thank you,
Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Pictures... pictures... we need pictures.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Pictures... pictures... we need pictures.



I agree, maybe someone will recognize it.
Some of the old boxes bring big bucks. (not mine though)

Especially master boxes.

Two more posts and you can post a few pictures.

I don't think a 234 engine was made.
A 234t is the number for a tender.


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

So that is why I could not post pic's. Here is one post.


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Here is number 10.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

joedee said:


> Here is number 10.



That is cheating.:laugh:

now,


:ttiwwop:


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Taking forever to load pic. Will try later.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

joedee said:


> Taking forever to load pic. Will try later.


it loaded I found this,

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1209187

do you have it in an auction?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

top look like this?


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

big ed said:


> top look like this?
> 
> 
> View attachment 7643


I found the one that says AMS but not the SPECIAL 1. Trying to post more pics. No, it is not in an auction. But if it is worth some bucks maybe??


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Lionel boxes of this vintage can certainly be collectible, especially if in good condition, with few tears, etc. Often, the boxes came with cardboard inserts. Do you have any?

I guessing (???) that Special meant it was a non-cataloged set. It was rather common that Lionel did this for certain department stores, dealers, etc.

I don't have my Lionel catalog books with me at the moment, but that box style looks 1920's to me.

Regards,

TJ


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

pic's I hope. System is very very slow.


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Lionel boxes of this vintage can certainly be collectible, especially if in good condition, with few tears, etc. Often, the boxes came with cardboard inserts. Do you have any?
> 
> I guessing (???) that Special meant it was a non-cataloged set. It was rather common that Lionel did this for certain department stores, dealers, etc.
> 
> ...


No Inserts. If someone has some listing of it that would be great. Kind of exciting to find something like this.

Joe


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

big ed said:


> That is cheating.:laugh:
> 
> now,
> 
> ...


OPPS sorry


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## newB (Feb 3, 2011)

234 isn't in my book as a cataloged set... it may be simpler to tell the age of the box by examining it's contents, post pictures of the trains please!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's an ebay example of the general type of set that MIGHT come in a box like that. Likely an electric loco (Lionel generally didn't make steam locos in the 1920's). Note that each car was packaged in a smaller box that fit within the big box.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-PREWAR-2...220087?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item230e446a77

TJ


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks for all the input guys. There were no trains with the box. Only some old track and a manual old signal. All the sets I see pic's of are close to this but not the same model numbers (Special 1). 234T and the 30 must be documented somewhere. If not then maybe the box is very rare and a "one of " like the one guy was telling me. 

Joe


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Anyone able to find any info on the model "Special 1"? There must be something somewhere about this. It is nice knowing that a box over 80 years old has survived so well but it would also be nice to know what it is.

Thank you,
Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

This doesn't answer the question specifically, but I can offer some sideinfo ... other Set #'s beginning with "234" (loco, cars) ...

234: 1930 O passenger train: 258, 529, 529, 530

234E: 1934 O passenger train: 259E, 600, 601, 602

234E / 234W: 1937 O freight train: 265E, 652, 653, 654, 657

That said, I still suspect your box is earlier vintage ... 1920's.

TJ


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi,
Thanks for the info. I think it is more in the 20's also. I did talk to the pres of the Lionel norther IL region today. Sent him some pic's. He said he knows some folks that know a lot about these old trains/boxes. Hope to hear back from him in a couple of days. 

Joe


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Joedee,

Here you go a listing with the contents of Lionel Special 1 set. It is dated from 1928 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6117776


However, your label is different so you need to pin down the year. I think
that is a around a 1929 to very early 30's box look at this:

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/7284324


Same label as your on the top of the box, but noted that this is an Ives
box with a Lionel label pasted on it. Since Lionel and American Flyer bought
Ives in 1928 and Lionel bought out American Flyers share in Ives in 1929.
I makes sense that this label is from around this time period. But Since this
is a special set it must be noted that Lionel could have been useing up 
old stock print materials to save money, just like useing old Ives boxes.

Here is a page out of Greenberg's Guide on Cataloged and Promotional
Train set. Basical stating that cars were either a special color or of 
normal color in a set of a non cataloged version. Something like a 4 car
set or added accessories.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bU...nepage&q=lionel "special sets" prewar&f=false

I hope this help you out some and that I got the information correct as 
possible as I am not a Lionel kind of guy.

Pookybear


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Very Good Info and a lot of it. That had to take some time. It does not however answer the question as to what the 234T and 30 stamped in the box represented. Maybe it was one of the special models they made to sell to the other customers as noted in the article. Makes sence now regarding the label saying SPECIAL 1. I guess we may never know what the 234T and 30 were. Wonder how rare this box is? It may be like I was told by one guy that it is a "one of". Thank you so much for all the research. It helps a lot.

Joe

PS: I think you are a LIONEL guy.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

That's interesting / good info from Pooky above, but I'm confused. Where was it on Joe's set box written that he had a 256 set? I didn't think that was the case ... he had a 234T.

I found it odd and interesting that Pooky's first link has a set described as "a Standard gauge set in a O-gauge labeled box" ... crazy!

Again, it was somewhat common that Lionel (or its dealers, really) offered "special" sets that were not "normal" catalog listings.

I do think late 1920's is likely. The suggested tie-in to Ives is a good point. For sure Lionel was pushing / selling Ives inventory post 1929, with a fuzzy history as to what locos / etc. had Ives labels, something called a "Winner Lines" label, and eventually Lionel labels.

I did check in my Doyle book and found no reference to a "234" loco. The set numbers usually did not match the contained loco number, though.

As stated earlier, I'm pretty sure all 1920's Lionel O locos were electric style, rather than steam style.

Keep us posted, Joe!

TJ


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> That's interesting / good info from Pooky above, but I'm confused. Where was it on Joe's set box written that he had a 256 set? I didn't think that was the case ... he had a 234T.
> 
> I found it odd and interesting that Pooky's first link has a set described as "a Standard gauge set in a O-gauge labeled box" ... crazy!
> 
> ...


All very good points. I am finding, as we have seen here, many items that are close but not the same and or different model numbers. Still working on the research and will let you all know what I find. I do have a gut feeling that this is a "1 of " or at least the last one of these boxes that is still around.

Joe


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Got most of the information today thanks to Mike of the Northern IL Lionel train assoc and his contact who provided the following.
This box ( SPECIAL 1) is for a 1931 Sears uncatalogued set. It is similar to Lionel's cataloged set #293. The set should have a 252 Terra cotta/maroon/brn, 902 Gondola,804 tank car,805 box car,and a 807 caboose. The hard part will be to find the original cars in the shape that your box is in. 
They did the same for Macy's only the box has the Macy's label.

So, I guess the only question I now have is how many are left and what is the value? Those might be the hardest questions to answer. Thank you to everyone for all the input and research. 
I am building my 0 scale layout (table is up) and I am sure over the months and years I will have more easy questions and maybe some answers or input to other folks regarding problems and questions.

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes, please come with an easy question next time, like how long is a standard O31 straight track.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Save it for another 80 years, then see how much it's worth.


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

In 80 years I will be dead. How long is a 031 track?? Have your fun guys but if you had this box I bet you would ask the same question. I think it is time to have a couple of PBR's and relax. 

Joe


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

joedee said:


> In 80 years I will be dead. How long is a 031 track?? Have your fun guys but if you had this box I bet you would ask the same question. I think it is time to have a couple of PBR's and relax.
> 
> Joe


if you have a son or grandson he would see how much they would be worth in 80 years. OK 80 is too long how about 20.
Save it for them.

the way science is evolving soon people will be living to 200, granted most of them will be artificial parts.

if it is worth a lot you will find out if you list it on e bay. bidding should take off from the start. I watched some go for a lot of bucks.


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

joedee said:


> In 80 years I will be dead. How long is a 031 track?? Have your fun guys but if you had this box I bet you would ask the same question. I think it is time to have a couple of PBR's and relax.
> 
> Joe


Joedee,

http://www.amazon.com/Lionel-10-Straight-Track-Gauge/dp/B0006O2594

Track answer above.

As for the looking up of infomation, no problem it does not take long at all.
I just wish I knew more about early Lionel outfits so I could come up with
the complete answer. 

Pookybear


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Yes, You are a lionel person.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

After seeing a 30 and a 29 on boxes I was ready ready to guess years.(or box size) If you could only find a page from the Sears Catalog for that year. OOH LA LA


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

joedee said:


> Yes, You are a lionel person.


Joedee,

I got the answer thanks to another Ebay auction. the number you speak of the xxxt-30 number is the outfit box number. The Lionel number used just
for the box.

Look at Ebay: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-PREWAR-S...422004?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3cb547d734

You can clearly see the the xxxt-30 and the xxxb-30 numbers. T for top and
b for bottom. 

So you just need to find out whatever 234 outfit was made up of originally.
That would at least give an idea of what was in the box, but most likely not
everything, as this was still a special with added items or a change in color.

http://www.icollector.com/Lionel-No-234-O-Gauge-Passenger-Train-Set_i8466957

Something like the above maybe. ^_^ It was not uncommon for the same
Outfits numbers to change their contents from one year to the next in the
pre war days. So just keep that in mind, the actual date of the box is
very important.

Pookybear


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

pookybear said:


> You can clearly see the the xxxt-30 and the xxxb-30 numbers. *T for top and
> b for bottom. *


*"T" for cardboard box TOP, "B" for cardboard box BOTTOM ... excellent deduction, Pooky!!!*

That explains the T. So then, we have the remaining "234" on the inside of the box ... that would point to the 234 steam passenger set in my earlier post (258 steam loco, 529 Pullman x 2, 530 Observation). However, it says "Special" on the label on the outside of the box, which suggest that a prior cardboard box stock was reused, with some other set content going inside.

TJ


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> *"T" for cardboard box TOP, "B" for cardboard box BOTTOM ... excellent deduction, Pooky!!!*
> 
> That explains the T. So then, we have the remaining "234" on the inside of the box ... that would point to the 234 steam passenger set in my earlier post (258 steam loco, 529 Pullman x 2, 530 Observation). However, it says "Special" on the label on the outside of the box, which suggest that a prior cardboard box stock was reused, with some other set content going inside.
> 
> TJ


Tjcruiser,

And yes I do try to keep my deductions on the side of Captain Obvious. 
Keeps the foot in mouth syndrome down to acceptable levels. 

Yes that is a possibility as well just using up old boxes. Or it could have
been the Special 1 set was based off of the 234 set. Remember it could
have been a simple color change or the addition of items such as a 
transformer or some accessories. Both could be the correct answer.

Pookybear


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## joedee (Jan 7, 2011)

Well, Most of the mystery is now solved. I sent a request to the TCA research
Library with a picture of the box. Got the info today. I hope everyone will be able to see the attached pic's and documentation. Still don't know the value but this is good info. Here is what they wrote back:

Your Lionel set box is very attractive and looks to be in very good to excellent condition. According to Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel Trains 1900-1942, this is a Type V box, manufactured from 1929 through 1934. The specific year it was produced is indicated on your box by the number 30 (1930) which appears below the Lionel manufacturers’ number. 



Attached is information on Lionel Type V boxes and a page from the 1930 Lionel catalog. Set number 234 at the bottom of the page shows the set for this box. Among serious Lionel collectors this box would be considered highly collectible. Boxes sometimes bring greater prices than the trains do.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> *"T" for cardboard box TOP, "B" for cardboard box BOTTOM ... excellent deduction, Pooky!!!*
> 
> That explains the T. So then, we have the remaining "234" on the inside of the box ... that would point to the 234 steam passenger set in my earlier post (258 steam loco, 529 Pullman x 2, 530 Observation). However, it says "Special" on the label on the outside of the box, which suggest that a prior cardboard box stock was reused, with some other set content going inside.
> 
> TJ





joedee said:


> Well, Most of the mystery is now solved. I sent a request to the TCA research
> Library with a picture of the box. Got the info today. I hope everyone will be able to see the attached pic's and documentation. Still don't know the value but this is good info. Here is what they wrote back:
> 
> Your Lionel set box is very attractive and looks to be in very good to excellent condition. According to Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel Trains 1900-1942, this is a Type V box, manufactured from 1929 through 1934. The specific year it was produced is indicated on your box by the number 30 (1930) which appears below the Lionel manufacturers’ number.
> ...


Looks like TJ was right then?

To bad it didn't have the train in it too.


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