# Things to Think About When Pre-Ordering...



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

My apologies, in advance, for a long post. But I thought this was a timely and important topic. 

Now that we're once again in "catalog season" -- especially with Lionel's recent release of their 2018 "Big Book" -- I thought I'd mention a few things I've experienced recently.

You've heard me often talk about Charles Ro Supply, and I am in no way affiliated with them. I've just purchased from Charlie since the mid- to late-1970's. So I have a history with them, and I've come to know many of the fine folks there who answer the phones. I never place orders online there, because I enjoy calling in orders. Yesterday was no exception, when I ordered a couple of items.

I also enjoy "spreading the business" across different dealers from time to time. And a great example for me locally is Hennings Trains in Lansdale, PA. If we're lucky enough to have a local train shop, I believe it's good to support them if we're gonna drop in from time to time. So by all means, it's important to cultivate good relationships -- since I've always believed people buy from people they like.

Now with the advent of importers moving toward a more formal Build-To-Order (BTO) business model, a broad range of dealers can now compete for our pre-order business. And with some importers like Lionel and MTH instituting minimum-advertised-pricing (MAP) policies, businesses both small and large are now all posting the same basic prices for pre-order. But if you call them, they'll likely have even better prices below MAP. A couple of years ago, they actually posted these lower selling prices outright. But in the most recent catalog cycles, they've been chastised for doing that. So we as the consumer now need to do a little extra work to find the real selling price.

I say all of this, because we're all often looking for the "best deals" when purchasing our toy trains... which is fine. *But I would caution folks to understand EVERYTHING regarding the terms and conditions when you stumble across a seemingly "great deal".* Here are two examples I experienced in 2017 that I thought I'd share here. I'm not naming the dealers, because it's more important to just be aware of the concepts I'm describing here:

*First... understand up front what the shipping charges will be for your purchase.* Last year, while "spreading the business" with another online dealer, I purchased two Lionel Legacy Shays at a very good price... only to later find out the dealer charged a flat shipping fee of $45 per locomotives (for locomotives over $1,000) -- even those these two locomotives were taped/strapped together as one UPS shipment... which certainly didn't cost the dealer $100 to ship! 

*Secondly... if you're required to place a deposit for any kind of pre-order, that should be a HUGE RED FLAG. Don't do it!!! End of discussion.* In general, I'd shy away from paying any kind of a deposit in this day-and-age where products can take months and sometimes multiple years for the manufacturer to deliver. But if you feel inclined to take the gamble, then UNDERSTAND THE COMPLETE T's & C's about the deposit. Namely, is the deposit non-refundable? Non-transferable? And how is the deposit applied to your order as partial shipments are made on a large order. Here's' what I'm talking about:

In April of 2017, I placed a complete train order with a dealer I've done business with on-and-off as needed the past few years. His "package price" for the MTH Railking CP Holiday Train seemed quite good, so I thought... "Well I've purchased from XXXXXX a few times when he's had something I needed, so why not give him a pre-order for something I thought was priced well and would ultimately be a very popular set of items."

After placing the complete pre-order (locomotive, 4 boxcars, 3 passenger cars), I was told there was a $150 deposit required on a package price of just under $700. Deposits are not my cup of tea, and a little voice inside me said "Don't do it". But in a rare moment, I didn't listen to that little voice and reluctantly placed the deposit. _Warning Sign #1._

Now in October, the 4 boxcars shipped. And at that time, the dealer charged the full line-item price of the boxcars... roughly $255. *So in essence, the dealer still held the $150 deposit until the FINAL item(s) shipped (which to date still hasn't shipped).* In other words, he did NOT apply the $150 deposit toward the first partial shipment of the 4 boxcars shipped. _Warning sign #2._

Shortly after the Christmas holidays, I decided to purchase a complete MTH Premier CP Holiday Train set from another dealer I've done business with over the years who had ALL the Premier items currently in-stock (i.e., locomotive, 4 boxcars, 3 passenger cars). So as a result I called the dealer where I had pre-ordered the MTH Railking set to cancel the remaining Railking items, but could never get through on the phone. _Warning sign #3._ But I emailed him, and did get a quick response. He indicated no problem canceling the items, but I'd lose my $150 pre-order deposit. 

It was actually THAT statement that clued me into the fact that the dealer hadn't applied my pre-order deposit toward the delivery of the 4 boxcars back in October.  That was my error for not tracking things closely, but I learned a hard lesson to never assume flexibility with all dealers that you're accustomed to having with a tried-and-true dealer for decades. We exchanged a few more emails, and the dealer talked about "me breaking the contract" and refused to back down from their non-refundable deposit policy -- even though he never told me the deposit was non-refundable when the pre-order was placed back in April 2017. _Warning sign #4._

Bottom line... I told him to keep the order in place so I don't lose the deposit. And I'll deal with selling the MTH Railking CP train that I no longer really need, since I have the complete Premier set.

Now I mention all of this -- not for anyone's sympathy, because I don't need it -- but rather to let folks know about the kind of crap that happens when we're sometimes lured into a deal for what appears to be a "great price". As we've often heard, there is no free lunch in life. And these two examples highlight that in spades.

Never assume the degrees of freedom you've established with one dealer will carry over to a new dealer instantaneously. I fully understand some dealers are sticklers for somebody cancelling a pre-order. But in my case, I ALWAYS will buy something else with that dealer if I change my mind -- for whatever the reason (i.e., in this case it was largely because MTH didn't deliver a Christmas product on time, and I found a Premier version of the same basic train I liked fully in-stock).

For all the decades I've purchased from Charles Ro, I can think of a small handful of times I've canceled a pre-order. And guess what? Charlie didn't care one iota. No deposit required, and he never minded if I cancelled prior to product shipment. He never even tried to intimidate me either. And as a reward for that flexibility, I've ALWAYS ordered something else when I needed to cancel something. And I've always gone back year after year to pre-order a few items that I thought were worth pre-ordering (as opposed to waiting for better deals after delivery).

The policies of the dealer I pre-ordered the MTH Railking set from may have made that dealer feel "protected and justified" that he has a non-refundable deposit policy that he doesn't openly discuss when folks place an order. But I also reminded him that it cost him my future business of any kind, which is certainly more than $150 to him. So at the end of the day, he blew it big time.

And at the end of the same day, I decided -- while I still will purchase items from time to time from dealers I know and like -- when it comes to pre-ordering, I'll stick with Charles Ro... because it's a relationship that goes back over 40 years now. And I'm treated with respect and appreciation each and every time I call them to place either a pre-order or purchase an item they already have in-stock. Even if the price may be a few bucks more, the warm-and-fuzzy feeling is there immediately. And the flexibility of an occasional need to cancel and purchase something else is a priceless and hassle-free element that we should never take for granted.

Like I said early, people buy from people they LIKE!!! 

David


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm extremely fortunate to not want _anything_ badly enough to pre-order it. If I can't see it, touch it, and watch it operate I just plain don't want it! Excellent verbosity on the post, though.

Pete


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2018)

Excellent comments, David. Many are not aware of what can happen and you did a very good job in covering this subject.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Thank you for relaying those informational experiences with pre-ordering though dealers, David.

Like Pete, I've never have been a pre-orderer and never wanted anything bad enough to have to pre-order it, which for me, has probably been a good thing. 

The experiences others have relayed in trying to get ahold of Lionel's Union Pacific excursion train passenger cars is another glowing example of the negatives involved with pre-ordering. Only they're all in reference to the manufacturing delays. After TWO YEARS, have they even arrived in the U.S. yet? 

I'm now at that comfortable point where I'm more than satisfied with all of the O scale stuff I already have. I agree with you on Charles Ro. I've ordered items from him when I lived in California, Hawaii, and now Utah over the past 30 years and have NEVER been disappointed. I wish all dealers were like him. :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I suckered in and pre-ordered the PRR H10 from the new 2018 catalog today at Henning's. It's such a cool little locomotive with great features and a really good price, I couldn't resist. I should have a layout to run it on by the time it ships.


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I suckered in and pre-ordered the PRR H10 from the new 2018 catalog today at Henning's. It's such a cool little locomotive with great features and a really good price, I couldn't resist. I should have a layout to run it on by the time it ships.


Might even be fully scenicked and detailed by then too. 

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's not likely Pete, but I plan to at least have track down.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I deal with one dealer over long periods of time for my preorders or just everyday purchases. Currently it Pats Trains, been dealing with Pat for the past 4 or 5 years. Before Pat it was Jims Train Shop, dealt with Jimmy for 15 years or so before he retired.

Both Pat and Jimmy always are / were great to work with.

Bill


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

I have only preordered items that usually sell out before I get around to buying them, namely British OO trains. The company I deal with never asks a deposit. When the items come available, any price increases and shipping are made available to the buyer and the buyer has the opportunity to cancel their preorder at that time.

It works pretty well.

Unfortunately, I don't have a local train shop. I wish I did. The closest one is about 50 minutes away, so I don't get there too often.

David, you have made great points and shared a lot of useful information. Thank you very much!

Tom


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2018)

Thank you for that David. Excellent points we should all be very careful to consider.

I think that the Dealer who refused to return your depoit is a horrible businessman. Any deposit is to insure the dealer doesn't get stuck with a hard-to-unload item. I don't agree with the practice and I would never give a deposit, but I understand the reason. In this case however, it's entirely unnecessary and the Dealer knows it. 

The MTH Railking CP Holiday Train has turned out to be a massive success for MTH. MTH reps have told me that the preorders were so much more than expected that they were SOLD OUT at the dealer level by September. In other words, there weren't even enough produced to meet Dealer preorders. They were caught off guard and the word is that they have already placed another production order that will be uncatalogued, just to meet the unsatisfied preorder demand. 

My point is that your Dealer would have no trouble at all selling those cars, which could actually be fetching a premium on resale next Christmas. Your Dealer is just being opportunistic and greedy. He's holding your money and all the power(He thinks). He's wrong!

The best way to deal with him is through the power of the "Dollar Vote". As consumers we get to Vote for which Shops should stay in business with our Dollar Vote. Place your Vote elsewhere. 

In this case you can also exercise the "Power of the Pen". I spread my business around from time to time as well. I would like to Vote against your Dealer. If you don't want to disclose it here, please email me the name of the Dealer. I will be certain to never buy from him again. If enough of us take that position, your Dealer (and maybe others) will come to the realization that WE hold the power here! *MTF! MTF! MTF!*

Until then Caveat Emptor!

Emile


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Great write-up David.

No pre-orders of anything here, my LionMaster issues have left me more than a little sour with this hobby.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

I do preorder, and I do not pay to do so. My dealer has always delivered what has been promised, and I trust them enough to keep my card on file.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> *Secondly... if you're required to place a deposit for any kind of pre-order, that should be a HUGE RED FLAG. Don't do it!!!
> David*


*

The local hobby store now requires either a deposit or full payment on special orders. I don't think a local hobbyist telling them NO will work. 

They are also cutting way back on off the shelf offerings. I don't have several options and don't trust any "on line" dealers.*


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> The local hobby store now requires either a deposit or full payment on special orders. I don't think a local hobbyist telling them NO will work.
> 
> They are also cutting way back on off the shelf offerings. I don't have several options and don't trust any "on line" dealers.


Bryan, then I would stop using that LHS. My dealer is over 800 miles away from me and is very well respected in the industry. All I do is place a simple phone call and I'm all set. I personally would be nervous about using a LHS for a preorder... you never know when they are going to fold their tent.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I buy MTH only and have been using Dave @ Mercer Junction for my pre orders. No deposit required. He has my card on file and ships UPS only to me.


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## slider162 (Dec 19, 2012)

Bryan Moran said:


> The local hobby store now requires either a deposit or full payment on special orders. I don't think a local hobbyist telling them NO will work.
> 
> They are also cutting way back on off the shelf offerings. I don't have several options and don't trust any "on line" dealers.


Telling them NO is exactly what they need to hear from a local hobbyist. If they are cutting back on stock, and forcing full payment on preorders, why would anyone think that they will still be open in 6 months? Plenty of trustworthy on-line stores. What isn't to trust? 

I placed my pre-order for the Niagara with TrainWorld but now see Charles Ro has a discounted price in the shopping cart. I'm waiting Charles Ro to get back to me on their preorder policy. That combined with the fact that we are planning on moving this summer, I hope that they all verify shipping for something that was ordered 9 months prior.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> The local hobby store now requires either a deposit or full payment on special orders. I don't think a local hobbyist telling them NO will work.
> 
> They are also cutting way back on off the shelf offerings. I don't have several options and don't trust any "on line" dealers.


Bryan, I think you're giving your LHS more "power" than they deserve. And without knowing all that much about your past experiences, you're painting with a very broad brush in terms of your view about online dealers. I've mentioned one that I've been doing business with for over 40 years, and other members here have mentioned some other names as well with whom they are comfortable doing business.

So I would encourage you to broaden your horizons a bit. There is certainly value in cultivating a relationship with a LHS, but it's got to be a win-win scenario. It's one thing to want a deposit, if a shop is gonna order something "special" that arrives in a week or two from a US-based warehouse location. But the norm for pre-orders nowadays is unfortunately months and sometimes years -- way, WAY too long to tie up your money. And payment in full for something like that is simply out of the question. Tell your LHS that, and have some fun with them if it's worth your time. See how they react. Worse they can say is "No way", and then you tell them the same thing and walk out the door.

There are simply too many good options out there nowadays for you to feel pressured into tying up your money for that long. The LHS is making the profit, so let him earn that profit. If he doesn't want to play in a win-win scenario, find somewhere else to make the purchase. There are really lots of good, reputable online dealers out there.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I suckered in and pre-ordered the PRR H10 from the new 2018 catalog today at Henning's. It's such a cool little locomotive with great features and a really good price, I couldn't resist. I should have a layout to run it on by the time it ships.


I think you'll be real happy with that H10, John. Lionel seems to be talking more confidently that the H10 will include both whistle-steam AND the swinging bell features... according to Ryan Kunkle on the Trainworld Facebook video. The first "Ryan & Dave" catalog show seemed a bit tentative on the swinging bell, but they're now speaking a bit more like it's a done deal. So we'll see.... 

David


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

I tend to no longer preorder. I like to see it before I purchase it especially engines. I have had no problem finding dealers have extras at preorder prices or better after they have shipped their preorders. Although, Charles Ro takes no deposits, they made a big mistake with one of my orders a few years back that left me very frustrated with them. They sold an item to someone else that I had already ordered. They left me hanging for a couple week without even notifying me. I made several calls to them and they said it was on its way but in reality they already sold it to someone else. I realize mistakes happen, but after that experience I have only made one purchase with them to get something for a friend that I could not find anywhere else. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> The local hobby store now requires either a deposit or full payment on special orders. I don't think a local hobbyist telling them NO will work.
> 
> They are also cutting way back on off the shelf offerings. I don't have several options and don't trust any "on line" dealers.


I like to support my local hobby shops, but it sounds like that one does not need your support. I would pre order from my LHS, but ONLY if they didn’t require a deposit AND gave me a few bucks off. Otherwise, I would order on line from Just Trains. They never require a deposit, usually give about 15% off, ship for free (if the order is over $300) and don’t charge sales tax.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> ... I would pre order from my LHS, but ONLY if they didn’t require a deposit AND gave me a few bucks off. ...


That's actually another good point... namely the pricing that's offered. In the pre-BTO days, there was usually a notable discrepancy between "mom and pop shop LHS" prices vs. the prices offered by national dealers like Charlie Ro, Nicholas Smith Trains, Grzyboski's, Trainworld, etc...

But ironically there's very little difference now -- especially with Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP) policies... where everybody is ADVERTISING the same price. Only when you inquire or add items to your shopping cart do you get the "real selling prices", where there is indeed some substantial differences.

We all develop a comfort level with what we want to pay for these trains. But I'd suggest any dealer that really expects to sell at MSRP is wasting both his (or her) time as well as ours. The MSRP's nowadays are completely off the wall meaningless numbers. So don't get caught in that sob story, where the LHS is telling you he needs to sell at MSRP (or even more) to make any money. At that point, it's not even worth a discussion... just quietly turn around and walk out the door. 

David


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Interesting read David. I sure I will never pre-order anything, but I do like Charles Ro. I have gotten to know them from York and they are real standup people.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

slider162 said:


> Telling them NO is exactly what they need to hear from a local hobbyist. If they are cutting back on stock, and forcing full payment on preorders, why would anyone think that they will still be open in 6 months? Plenty of trustworthy on-line stores. What isn't to trust?


That's way too definitive of a statement. Easy to make without knowing all the facts. For me, without Hobby Haven there is far less interest in the hobby. 

1st, I travel a 3 state, used to be 4 state territory for my company. In each major metro area I stay I google the hobby stores so I can go in and buy something and see what else is out there.

In every community, which includes Kansas City, Topeka, Omaha, and so on, there is nothing that compares to Hobby Haven, Des Moines, Iowa. 

While training for a month in northern Connecticut I went to what should have been an awesome train store in a brick and mortar former mill of some sort in central Connecticut. 

They had UNLIMITED space, 2 large layouts, and virtually NO O Gauge. About 3 locomotives, virtually no rolling stock, DEAD! 

You want to only deal with a dealer 800 miles away? OK. 

But nothing beats going into a hobby store with $75,000 worth of O Gauge / Scale stuff. They have an O Gauge layout in the store. Want to check out a locomotive? No problem. 

I have been going there for 7 years as I started this hobby. When I started, they had Big Boys, and maybe 50 (!) locomotives to choose from. Rolling stock everywhere, grass, 25 kinds of ballast, trees, Chooch Industries, Woodland Scenics stuff stacked up and on and on. 

It's one thing to browse a laptop, a catalog, see HD photos on ebay with little to no comment, and quite another to spend as much time as you want checking all of this stuff out. Back then they easily had $150,000 of O Gauge/ scale stuff. 

Fasttrack. MTH track, traditional track and Gargraves. Plus they have Roger, a guy that has been doing O Guage since 1961, before I was born. 

The next nicest train store I have found is FRANKS TRAIN SHOP in Overland Park, KS (Kansas City KS) It pales in comparison to HOBBY HAVEN and yet I have purchased about $1300 from Frank in 2 + years. 

Nothing beats a brick and mortar train store. 

Clearly, Hobby Haven is scaling back on O Gauge as it is a declining market. $700 Legacy Locomotives, 4 Menards surrounding this one store, Lionel, Atlas, and MTH rolling stock in the $65 to $129 range. 

Yep, let's dictate to the ONLY local hobby store how YOU will order and see how that goes. In another 3-4 years, the O Scale "area" will be converted to the hotter HO scale. 

I have no idea why they implemented this policy but I suspect that it's because they got expensive locomotives in and then the "buyer" disappeared. Can they send it back? Don't know? I remember seeing a Lionel Big Boy up there for awhile at $1,999. Roger said it was a special order and the buyer disappeared. 

I have special ordered $2400 in locomotives without putting any money down. Maybe the policy comes from the manufacturers, with the BtO being the trend? 

I like having brick and mortar, and I support them by buying from them, like I do Menards.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Bryan, I think you're giving your LHS more "power" than they deserve. And without knowing all that much about your past experiences, you're painting with a very broad brush in terms of your view about online dealers. I've mentioned one that I've been doing business with for over 40 years, and other members here have mentioned some other names as well with whom they are comfortable doing business.
> 
> So I would encourage you to broaden your horizons a bit. There is certainly value in cultivating a relationship with a LHS, but it's got to be a win-win scenario. It's one thing to want a deposit, if a shop is gonna order something "special" that arrives in a week or two from a US-based warehouse location. But the norm for pre-orders nowadays is unfortunately months and sometimes years -- way, WAY too long to tie up your money. And payment in full for something like that is simply out of the question. Tell your LHS that, and have some fun with them if it's worth your time. See how they react. Worse they can say is "No way", and then you tell them the same thing and walk out the door.
> David


David
We may be in uncharted territory with the BtO. I suspect if I pushed it, special orders would require a deposit from me - or other regulars. Instead of payment in full. I just noticed the sign put up about 4 months ago - PAYMENT IN FULL ON ALL SPECIAL ORDERS. 

This store has layaways, and I purchased my 4 car ROCK ISLAND passenger car set which came to $600 + tax. 

I appreciate you have a relationship with the one on line dealer, for many years, key word is relationship.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> ... I just noticed the sign put up about 4 months ago - PAYMENT IN FULL ON ALL SPECIAL ORDERS.
> 
> ...


Hi Bryan, I understand we live in a world that has a gazillion shades of grey. Nothing is simple black-and-white. But one thing is for certain... any dealer that truly wants payment in full for a pre-order (i.e., not sure if that constitutes what your dealer is calling "special orders") can't be serious.

Take, for example, the Lionel UP Excursion Passenger Set that was announced 2 years ago. If you read the thread on those cars here on MTF, I posted a comment yesterday about stumbling across an old invoice printed in Nov 2016 that stated the expected ETA for a similar set of cars was 12/10/2016. Today is 1/4/2018, and we just "might" see those cars in April 2018. Now what kind of dealer seriously thinks ANYBODY would pay him $1,000 (or whatever a 7-car passenger set costs) up front and not receive a product for well over one year? In this case, closer to 2 years?  I just can't see that happening. And if your LHS expects to do business that way, they're just not operating in any glimpse of reality. Either that or they're really sending you a message that they don't want to be dealing with those products anymore by making it too painful for their clients.

David


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Bryan: It's nice you can enjoy living close to a brick-and-mortar "well-trained" store like Hobby Haven. There's a similar one about 5 miles from where I live called The Train Shoppe. But these stores are becoming fewer and farther between.

As you stated, O scale is being scaled back. HO continues to dominate and N continues to grow. We don't see HO and N customers having the pre-order and BTO woes that O scalers have. Not to mention the price differences.

For these and other reasons, O scale continues to fade.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I deal with a LHS (Actually a hardware store that sells trains) for most of my pre-orders. He charges me 10% off MSRP plus no tax (8.25%) if I pay cash. Since he's local, that means no shipping too. I could probably do better but I like to keep the local guys in business and he has always been straight up with me and good to deal with. I buy mostly MTH. On the occasion, where I want to pre-order Lionel, the extreme prices of Lionel make me look elsewhere. I've been dealing with Pat's Trains for my Lionel and have been very happy with the service and prices. Neither dealer charges me a deposit on a pre-order.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Good to know DAVID thanks. I have pre ordered from CHARLIE RO a bunch of times and was always treated great, even at YORK. If you have a problem with an order send it back to him and he;ll fix it or make it right. Got a real good pre order on a Legacy Reaing & Northern 425 with the Aux tender from him and great deal on the camera caboose and Observation car so I had to pre order. Like I stated before a good guy!:thumbsup:


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Yellowstone Special said:


> Bryan: It's nice you can enjoy living close to a brick-and-mortar "well-trained" store like Hobby Haven. There's a similar one about 5 miles from where I live called The Train Shoppe. But these stores are becoming fewer and farther between.
> 
> As you stated, O scale is being scaled back. HO continues to dominate and N continues to grow. We don't see HO and N customers having the pre-order and BTO woes that O scalers have. Not to mention the price differences.
> 
> For these and other reasons, O scale continues to fade.


Vern
That's exactly why I support them. There is also a great train shop up in Cedar Rapids area. I think his name is Merle and I met him at the big CHICAGO 2 rail event last March, he is more diversified with the 2 rail stuff, and of course that is all he brought to the CHICAGO meet. 

Frank's Train Shop in Overland Park is an Oasis. Overland Park, Lenexa, that part of suburban Kansas City is one of the wealthiest enclaves in the United States. Lots of professionals with big basements and kids who would love trains, and KC is large train town, LCCA was there for a National meet I think in 2016 or 2017. 

I don't know the behind the scenes dynamics with the manufacturers. By that I mean, does Lionel, MTH, Atlas and the HO manufacturers REQUIRE Brick and Mortars to buy at wholesale a certain amount of new catalog stuff every year? 

Do retail stores get stock from intermediaries (wholesalers?) ? I just don't know enough but I know Hobby Haven is struggling O Gauge/Scale wise but doing fine with model airplanes, drones, HO, helicopters, etc. 

I think they are ready to reduce their footprint of O gauge stuff and once Roger passes away, they likely will. Nothing beats a trip to Hobby Haven to look at rolling stock up close, layout detail stuff, even their consignment.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

laz57 said:


> Good to know DAVID thanks. I have pre ordered from CHARLIE RO a bunch of times and was always treated great, even at YORK. If you have a problem with an order send it back to him and he;ll fix it or make it right. Got a real good pre order on a Legacy Reaing & Northern 425 with the Aux tender from him and great deal on the camera caboose and Observation car so I had to pre order. Like I stated before a good guy!:thumbsup:


This Charlie RO sounds like a good guy but why not have a brick and mortar store as a base? Sounds like he is just an on-line guy. While he has great relationships with the regulars here and his regulars, how is that attracting new O Scale customers to sustain the hobby?


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## pennwest (Sep 21, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> This Charlie RO sounds like a good guy but why not have a brick and mortar store as a base? Sounds like he is just an on-line guy. While he has great relationships with the regulars here and his regulars, how is that attracting new O Scale customers to sustain the hobby?


Uh, Charles Ro sorta has a real brick and mortar store, actually made out of brick and mortar!


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Charles Ro has a brick and mortar location as well as an online presence. They are Lionel's biggest dealer.

Oops! Bob ya beat me by 30 seconds! Look! It's MECCA! LOL


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> This Charlie RO sounds like a good guy but why not have a brick and mortar store as a base? Sounds like he is just an on-line guy. While he has great relationships with the regulars here and his regulars, how is that attracting new O Scale customers to sustain the hobby?


Bryan, I think you have the wrong idea about some of the online dealers we're talking about here. Not sure where that perspective is coming from -- perhaps you've just had some bad online experiences. But most of the dealers we're naming here have been around for decades and DO HAVE a brick-and-mortar store. Most started that way. Here's Charlie Ro's latest store...









Come to think of it... just about ALL the dealers I've purchased trains from in the past several years have physical store fronts... namely, Hennings Trains, Nicholas Smith Trains, Bussinger Trains (all here in Southeastern PA); Grzyboski Trains (PA), Pats Trains (WV), Sidetrack Hobbies (MD), Legacy Station (GA), Stockyard Express (OH), Dixie Union Station (OH), Mr Muffin's Trains (IN), JusTrains (DE), Trainworld (NY), and Nassau Hobbies (NY). Most of these dealers also make an appearance at the York TCA train show twice each year. So they are companies that interact directly with their customers in person. Almost all of them have some type of operating layout -- Mr Muffin's layout is enormous by most in-store standards, and he runs trains almost every Saturday from 10-3 for the public to enjoy. And I know Charlie Ro, Trainworld, and Nassau Hobbies have annual open-houses to attract new people to the hobby -- especially around Christmastime. 

They've ALL embraced growing their businesses through the internet. So most successful hobby/train stores today have an online presence. It's not about being brick-and-mortar OR online. They are bricks-and-mortar AND online.

Relationships don't happen overnight. But people will buy from people they like. Give some of these businesses a try, and you'll see what we're talking about here. These are all first-class operations.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan,

I think you have the idea about Charlie Ro by now! 

David


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Wow that place must be awesome. I would much rather go INTO a store like that than order on line. 

You are correct. In 1st reading this thread it sounded like these were ON LINE only dealers / sources. It makes sense that in order to survive and expand in the age of AMAZON, dealers need to have both on line and Brick and Mortar. 

Thanks guys.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hey folks,

Just wanted to mention another important point to keep in mind about pre-orders. In our little corner of the world, it's increasingly common for a lot of time to pass between the pre-order date and the final delivery of the product. And I swear... there are days it seems as if some toy train dealers keep accounting records on the back of a napkin!!!  

Today, I received a phone call from the dealer where I pre-ordered the MTH Railking CP Holiday Train back in April 2017, and they informed me the Railking locomotive and 3 passenger cars would be shipping next week. So it was time to pay the balance due. *Unfortunately, they charged $100 OVER the correct balance due.*  I was able to reach them by phone (after getting several automated messages that their phone's voicemail system wasn't set up properly), and suggested they immediately issue a $100 refund so I don't need to go the route of disputing the overcharge. They apologized and agreed to issue the $100 refund. So we'll see what happens. I watch this stuff like a hawk. 

But anyway... my point is... Keep accurate records for those pre-orders -- ESPECIALLY the older ones that collect dust for a year or two. Honest mistakes can always happen, but why risk being on the losing end of those errors? Last year a dealer charged me his "normal" price when a pre-ordered item finally shipped -- instead of the agreed-upon pre-order price. Fortunately, I kept good records, and the story had a happy ending in that a credit was issued by the end of the day.  

This is another reason I recommend Charles Ro for pre-ordering stuff. They know how to handle high volume. Period. I call the store to place the pre-order. Then a few days later I'll receive an email that indicates the order number along with a detailed listing of the items I ordered including the price and the ETA for shipment. When items ship, I receive a printed invoice that shows the amount charged for the item(s) shipped as well as the remaining items still back-ordered along with an updated ETA for their shipment... until there are no more items to ship on that order number! Just good, sound business practices by a company that sells a TON of trains. If you're dealer of choice doesn't implement something like this for pre-orders, that's all the more reason to keep your own records up to date for this kind of stuff.

David


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

More good stuff. I had a thought about the change from shelf availability to BtO. I wonder if this means overall less locomotives in the post new purchase marketplace. 

It seems in the old days, the manufacturers would make a run of locomotives, and put them out there. Maybe they got burned with price reductions and average lower margin. Now their margins are higher, but less are made?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> ... I wonder if this means overall less locomotives in the post new purchase marketplace. ...


I suppose there's "some" truth to what you're saying. But the larger dealers tend to order extra units of BTO items anyway. Exactly how many is unknown. At the end of the day, it's the dealer/distributor who is now holding the risk -- not the importer.

I don't pre-order all that much these days -- certainly nothing near what I did 10-20 years ago. Yet I can honestly say I haven't run into a "sold out" situation by NOT pre-ordering. So the extra units that dealers are buying carry me over just fine.

The only time I'd be inclined to pre-order is if something is truly unique (i.e., like the MTH CP Holiday Train) or if I see a very localized roadname being offered for a locomotive or piece of rolling stock. For example, Lionel is offering their new H10 locomotive in the Western Allegheny roadname (among others). And that might not be a roadname lots of dealers plan to stock by ordering extras. That's where BTO can be a bit tricky. It's a double-edged sword in that sense: on one hand you get roadnames that wouldn't otherwise be offered, yet you might need to pre-order those localized roadname items to ensure you'll get it -- or that the item will even get produced in the first place.

David


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Late to the party but David brings up a lot of excellent points. 

Stay smart about who you order from and keep excellent records.


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

A lot of us don't like pre-orders for numerous reasons - long delay, deposits, quality control , etc. We hope the dealers will order extras so we can get what we want when they eventually come out. Must be very hard on the dealers to figure out how much extra to order. Wish there was a better way.

Bill


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I created a ‘Pre-Order Template’ that I hand to my dealer or fax it. It lists the date ordered, the catalog ordered from, the item number and the item. This way he has the same copy I do. Then I create a spreadsheet that lists what I preordered with the info from the template list. I put them in columns according to estimated delivery dates, which I keep track of so I have an idea of when to expect them. 

In addition, every couple of months I have a chat with my dealer to confirm that he has the items ordered. 

You have to be your own advocate. My dubious record for waiting for something was 3 1/2 years for the MTH Coal Turbine with ProtoSounds 2. It took so long that it arrived with ProtoSounds 3!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I would not be able to wait 31/2 years. If it's not at the dealer or train show than it will never be bought.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Well, it showed up in stores at the same time. So everyone waited the same.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

One more thing to think about when thinking about pre-ordering:

I YOU DON'T, YOU MAYBE WON'T GET THE LOCO, EVER, PERIOD.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

ogaugenut said:


> A lot of us don't like pre-orders for numerous reasons - long delay, deposits, quality control , etc. We hope the dealers will order extras so we can get what we want when they eventually come out. Must be very hard on the dealers to figure out how much extra to order. Wish there was a better way.
> 
> Bill


Bill - That is where I am miffed at our LHS. 5-6 years ago they had maybe 45 locomotives on the shelf or display. Now they have 10 at the most with about 5 of those being there quite awhile. 

The store and I are in DES MOINES IOWA. So, 90% should be regional rails, like they would / should have back east. 

I understand some folks collect western names like Santa Fe especially with their Warbonnets, but overall the LHS should have 30-40 locomotives in stock at all times, and it appears some would be BtO names. 

Then to add insult to injury is the special order policy of paying 100% in advance.


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

This site needs a "Delete post" feature. If it already does, will someone please point me to it?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Traindiesel said:


> My dubious record for waiting for something was 3 1/2 years for the MTH Coal Turbine with ProtoSounds 2. It took so long that it arrived with ProtoSounds 3!


I had the same experience although I had forgot it was that long! What I took away from it was that MTH had a concealed BTO policy, which was the only thing I figured could account for the long delay between a PS 2 UP80 first being cataloged and then delivered as all the external features of the engine are identical to the original PS1 version. So I figure that the body tooling was always available and production was delayed until MTH had enough orders to justify (from its own perspective) making and delivering these monsters.

This was so long ago that the LHS I got the model from did not ask for any deposit.


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