# Question about speakers.....



## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

In a near future,I'll be installing a sound decoder in an HO loco.It'll be a new world for me the N scaler as it seems that I'll have some room to work with.Since the loco I'll have (I ordered a Kato SD40-2) is already "speaker ready",I'm thinking about adding a smaller "high bass" speaker...my question is simple...will this improve the sound significantly?Is it worthed the effort?Thanks.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Mega bass speakers add that extra low end punch to the sound.
The down fall to these speakers is there depth the smallest is .40" just under a half inch. I am working on 2 Katos right now One SD45 and an SD40-2 Trying to shoehorn a mega bass in there seems to be out of reach just not enough room. 
I am thinking about adding a second smaller speaker in the nose I'll let you know how that goes, It's getting pretty tight in there with the 12 LED's.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

???Twelve LED's?What are all these for?You're having me worried there's something I don't know.I too will be fitting sound in an SD40-2 (newer version with the eight pin plug,not the replacement board) but will concentrate on having a nice sounding one.I'm interested in having prototypical lighting effects too but I won't push it this far though.

I've searched the web for CN's SD40-2 pictures with all the lights on but couldn't find any.It seems the prototype has only the headlight,rear light,front ditch lights,number board and cab interior lighting...not bad for a model.What am I missing?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Did I say 12 I meant 16! 
Head light, Tail light, and the number boards are all on light pipes so #1 LED for the front Light and boards, #2 LED for the rear and boards, LED's 2-6 Step lights, LED's 7-12 Truck lights, 13,14 ditch lights, 15,16 front and rear red's. I would have done cab lighting but not enough functions to be able to pull that off!
Word of caution!!! One major down fall to the 8 pin plug in is you might not have enough room to keep the top weight. It's tight in there even with the board replacement!


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Boy!...does the prototype have all these or is it a modeler's fancy?Decoder functions is one thing...what about current draw?

I should have my first (planning on two) by friday and the first thing I'll do is pulling the shell off to verify.According to Kato,it should be easy.I'll check and let you know.Anyway,I want to know before I order the decoder setup and order a second loco.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes they do!
You might get luckier than me, these 2 katos are versions 1 and 2 Version 1 was not set up for DCC, version 2 had the 8 pin on the original board but no speaker hole in the fuel tank. I managed to stuff one of the bigger oval speakers in there and it sounds great!


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

In case you might be interested in seeing what mine is supposed to look like inside...Katousa/Ho/NA locos/SD40-2/maintenance/Downloadable instruction sheet.It carries a "partial" decoder for the ditch lights that will likely complicate programming a sound decoder somewhat though. 

BTW,I sure would like to know where all these lights go...any link of a prototype picture with the lights on.I might consider adding them...


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Well...or may be not so well.The Kato SD40-2 came in today and preliminary testing reveals...
The loco is a fantastic runner,smooth and silent.Tested it with a TCS DP2X decoder I have on hand and DCC operation is absolutely perfect.
The lights do work fine and being able to select steady or alternating blinking ditch lights is a great feature but...a huge disappointment...yellow lighting.

I had plans to convert this one to DCC/sound but replacing the whole board would likely mean losing the ditch light feature,wich I chose this loco for,was not in my plans.And I wanted a bass speaker,but as Sean has stated,there's no room for it.So I might save my efforts for another loco I have in mind.Then may be after a good night sleep.............


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Jake,
The Soundtraxx board has the provisions for the ditchlights built into it.
and I also change the lights out to be warm whites.
The standard speaker sounds pretty good used in this engine, don't let that stop you! Is there a speaker space in the fuel tank on yours?


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

The very first parameter I have to stay within is my budget.Although all the available features are fun,they add up.My initial plan was to have two HO locos,one sounder and a silent one.Wich was to be wich wasn't set in concrete though.

I bought this one (SD40-2) because I wanted one CN and the two ditch light cycles appealed to me.It does have the speaker enclosure built in so I believe it's exactly the same Sean has worked on (except the ditch light feature) but space is real tight so fitting a bass speaker is almost impossible.

The other planned loco (a Dash 9) has a wider nose and also has the speaker enclosure so I think I'll have this one fitted with a sound board and may be a bass speaker.Originally,I was thinking of installing wired TSU 1000 with eight pin plugs wich would have given two extra function wires for step lights or else,but if the loco also comes with yellow LED's,I'll have to reconsider for this one two.The replacement boards don't give you these additional functions that I know of.

Another deterrent factor (in my mind) to fitting sound in this one is that you have no manual control on the ditch lights.They turn on with the headlight and turn off while backing up.Also,selecting their cycles uses F1,irrelevent for silent DCC but has them synchronized with the bell...little annoying...unless re-mapping could correct this but one would have to program the decoders separately.

So,right now,I'm thinking of installing an eight pin plug to a brand new TCS M1 decoder I have on hand and keep the 40-2 as is (silent DCC & yellow lights) unless replacing the LED's is possible for a reasonable cost and save for the other loco.BTW,although it works,the TCS DP2X doesn't fit right on these boards.There's a protuding component that blocks the decoder from sitting flat on the original board.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Jake, Go Here to see the Kato SD40-2 board and install. it might help you out and the -9 is the same kind of install.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Sean,I've been visiting both Kato's and Soundtraxx's websites quite often during the last week and I have a fair idea of what my options are.Technically it's easy...a replacement board...a speaker...an easy install...program with Decoder Pro...and I'm all set to go for $300+ a loco.

Being an N scaler,these will be run only occasionally on a friend's layout and at the club when no N scaler is present.On top of this,they'll likely be consisted most every time,so having two sounders (though appealing) wouldn't be reasonable.I've decided that the Dash 9 (wich I haven't purchased yet) will be the sounder and the SD40-2 will remain silent.However,I'd consider having the LED's replaced if feasible at a reasonable cost if the Kato boards are any good to start with,wich I don't know.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Well,I have received my brand new Kato SD40-2 last friday and have been trying a few things since.It has a built in "semi" decoder that allows to operate the ditch lights in either "constant" or "alternately blinking" mode in either DC or DCC,a fun feature indeed but with undesirable restrictions,at least in my mind.

The first thing that strikes attention...these "Golden white" LED's are anything but white.There so yellow that it probably was what gave Kato the idea to turn ditch lights into flashers.

Then,one has no control on the ditch lights.They turn on with the headlight and turn off when the loco is backing up.OK,re-mapping them to the rear light too is possible,so they're not directional any more.

Kato says the decoder can have the CV's re-written to suit one's needs.True...but of no use nonetheless.I wanted manual control of the ditch lights so started tinkering with CV's.I don't really like the fact that F1 controls the blinking mode wich synchronizes them with the bell (with sound decoders,irrelevent with regular DCC).Not so bad I thought,I can have the bell re-mapped to F5 or F6 wich I think is possible (can't try now) and re-map the ditch lights to F1 and F2.Well,I've managed to re-map ditch lights on/off with F1 and blinking mode with F2...one problem showed up...F2 is a "hold in" key,the lights blink as long as you hold the key pressed.And this "decoder" can't be re-mapped beond F3,wich is also a momentary control.So,I reset the ditch lights as they were and re-mapped them with the rear light but they still turn off with the other lights.Not bad anyway if only they were WHITE.

BTW,this semi decoder is not functional alone.I've tried pulling the DC plug and the ditch lights become erratic.And the decoder can't be read or re-programmed if not teamed with a regular decoder.But still,I've had a lot of fun tinkering........

Now,I have a question that likely our good friend Sean or someone else can answer...are Kato's original lightboards reliable?Are they worthed changing the LED's?I'm planning what is an important expense for me,and my decision will be based on this info.Thanks.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Kato boards are very reliable. And yes it would be worth changing out the LED's on the boards. I use warm white LED's with great success.:thumbsup:

Let me tell you a tiny flaw in running a non sound unit with a sound unit in a consist...Speed matching. Sound decoders use some of the available amperage to run the sound board and it tends to have a different overall curve to the speed. You can do some careful speed matching by, running and testing and programing and do it all over again and again... it's a slow and long process and will not always work out. Usually the loco without the sound will try and run off with the sound equipped one dragging behind.

I've painted the worse case scenario to speed matching, I have done some that match up without a single issue!


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Well...another glitch in my original plan...or better still...another challenge.Sean,I hadn't thought of that.So I'll have to review my plan again.

I had planned on two locos of the same brand and have even verified their individual parts list to be sure they used the same gears,wheels,etc. (thus ratios) so that speed matching would be almost automatic.Now I learn that I'd still may have this problem with this too...very happy to learn this before I venture in the retrofits...thanks Sean.

So I'm left with no choice...two sounders it's going to be.I'll order the second loco tomorrow (an AC4400).Unfortunately,it'll delay the whole project for another month before I order the sound decoders and hardware...budget has to follow.

I'm trying to imagine both engines rumbling together with their individual tune (EMD645Turbo & GE FDL16)...it should bearable sight and sound.The kid in me can't wait.......


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

OK...now back to the original question...speakers.I've been reading Soundtraxx's instructions about speaker selection and I've learned a new thing.If you take say two eight OHMs speaker and wire them in "series",it brings the impedence up to sixteen OHMs (double) for a lesser load.On the other hand,if you take the same speakers and wire them in "parallel",you cut the OHMs value in half,wich is not recommended since it would be a higher load on the amplifier.OK,I believe this and can do the maths.

But is there a difference in the way the speakers will sound with either way.Is one better off with two four OHMs speakers in series or two sixtenn OHMs in parallel to get the prescribed eight OHMs?Or can he just stick two eight OHMs speaker in series,not worry about the final sixteen OHMs,and expect just as good sound quality?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You need to match the output impedance for the best sound. Also, make sure the speakers are phased properly.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I hook up several speakers all the time just DO NOT put them in parallel it will overload the decoder, amplifier and equalizer.
Common combination is one regular speaker and one Mega bass speaker.
Soundtraxx decoders have circuitry built into the decoder (impedance matching) that allows the speakers to be done in series and still put out the same quality and volume of sound. They do self phase matching from the decoder to the speaker. They talk about plus and minus on the speakers but on most of their decoders the colors of speaker wires are the same coming off the decoder, It is important to match the phase when mating 2 speakers in a series!:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's the phase I'm talking about Sean.  It's far less important if the speakers are phased correctly to match a + or - from the source. If the speakers are connected incorrectly, they'll tend to cancel out the volume and make the sound "muddy" as well.


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