# Hidden from view automation



## gtsonoma (Dec 24, 2020)

Frist let me say that I am very much a rookie at all of this model train stuff. I have been collecting HO scale ~1900's mountain steam rolling stock and locos for many years. A couple of years ago I picked a new Digitrax system and a few Tortise switch motors. I now have room to build a layout.I have a plana and I am building bench work now.

The plan is to build a double dog bone with reversing loops and a couple of train storage sidings.1 of the dog bones will be at ground zero and above. The other dog bone, reversing loops and sidings will be below grade and not visible once the land scaping is done. The dog bones are arranged in a folded figure 8 fashion so all trains will cover both loops, above grade and below. With the options to reverse or stop on sidings. I have computer and electronics background.

My question is how to best automate train activity below grade ? Optical or "cut rail" type sensors ?

Since I have Digitrax main components I have been looking at Digitrax for the stuff to do this. It appears that Digitrax is the "cut rail" type of stuff.
Thank you for taking the time here.
Regards, Vic.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

I have no experience with either Digitrax or computer automation of a layout, but Charlie does.
(5) Chadwick Model Railway - YouTube 

His first layout was computer automated, and he uses Digitrax. Check out his earlier videos.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Automated or not, any area with turnouts is a likely place to expect a derail...will your 'not visible' trackage be
easily reached to set 'things' right.

If you posted a drawing of your proposed layout we would be able to offer more
specific and meaningful suggestions. 

Automation of a train layout is the aim of many members. It implies that you will just
sit back and watch your trains run with no involvement on your part. This can be
calming and relaxing...but consider...how long do you think you'll want to do that.
Many, if not most of us, enjoy actually controlling our trains, sending them over this
or that route, watching to see that they don't crash into each other. Also, there is the
added fun of running a switching operation...I bring this up, not as criticism....but to
alert you to the enjoyment of hands on operations.

Don


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## gtsonoma (Dec 24, 2020)

DonR said:


> Automated or not, any area with turnouts is a likely place to expect a derail...will your 'not visible' trackage be
> easily reached to set 'things' right.
> 
> If you posted a drawing of your proposed layout we would be able to offer more
> ...


Don, thanks for the comments. Yes, I would agree, sitting back and watching things is not really my goal. Sending the train(s) away from the visible level of the layout and have the automation take care of them while they are away is the goal. Switching and through train operation on the visible level will be very manual / interactive.

My basic question is that of detection, how to go about detecting the train being at a specific location, like in the reverse loop or in a siding.

The hidden area will be accessible to correct issues but I am investing in better quality switches and hopefully good workmanship to avoid much of that.

My drawings are desk pad size and are big to scan on my printer, not sure how else to get them into PC.

Did you have any thoughts on the detection question ?

Vic.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Vic


You can perhaps take a photo of your drawing then
post the photo. 

There are several methods of occupancy detection:
Infra Red
Photo Cell
Resistance sensing.
There are commercial products available for these. Google HO Track occupancy detection and
you'll find a number of responses and videos showing you how.

I gather that you want to know that a train is at point A and perhaps another at point B.
I would think that either photo cell or infra red would be best for this situation.
The resistance sensing requires that all of your cars have 'resistance' paint
on their axles and that's a pain to do. It is used mainly for signal control.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

gtsonoma said:


> Frist let me say that I am very much a rookie at all of this model train stuff. I have been collecting HO scale ~1900's mountain steam rolling stock and locos for many years. A couple of years ago I picked a new Digitrax system and a few Tortise switch motors. I now have room to build a layout.I have a plana and I am building bench work now.
> 
> The plan is to build a double dog bone with reversing loops and a couple of train storage sidings.1 of the dog bones will be at ground zero and above. The other dog bone, reversing loops and sidings will be below grade and not visible once the land scaping is done. The dog bones are arranged in a folded figure 8 fashion so all trains will cover both loops, above grade and below. With the options to reverse or stop on sidings. I have computer and electronics background.
> 
> ...


Vic;

I'm not sure if this qualifies as "cut rail", as I'm not familiar with that term. NCE makes a neat little "Tombstone" block occupancy detector. You just thread one of the power feeder wires to that block through the hole in the tombstone-shaped coil. When a locomotive or lighted car enters the block, the coil senses the current flow and triggers the sensor.

For what you have in mind though, you might need something a bit more sophisticated. You would not only need to know that the front of a train was in a given block of track, but. I would think, also whether the entire length of the train was in that block. That would call for two sensors, one near each end of the block. The commercial IRDOT type sensors might be a good fit for this setup. They mount below the track, and look up between the ties. The sensor contains both an infra red "transmitter"(LED) and an infra red receiver (photo diode) The IR light is sent up, and when a train passes over, the IR light bounces off the bottom of the train and back into the sensor. It can detect any car, without any modification to the car.

If the block was slightly longer than your longest train, there would be a sequence where the train was detected entering the block, and then detected again before it reached the next block. If the first detector no longer saw a train, and the second detector did, the track power to that block could be cut off, stopping the train in a known location, with all of it clear of turnout fouling points.

Don is absolutely right about easy access to any hidden track. That track will need cleaning, just like any other track. No matter how carefully you lay the track, and no mater what turnouts you use, things WILL go wrong in there. 
Your design should include a practical way of removing whatever hides the track, so you can see, and reach that track just as easily, and well, as the non-hidden track. Anything less, especially with the strongly not recommended complication of turnouts in a tunnel, is asking for trouble.

I have hidden track, including a five track staging yard, on my layout. The staging yard is covered by lightweight scenery, which lifts off the layout to completely expose the yard. The "back track", essential for continuous running, is concealed behind removeable plastic backdrops. The first photo shows an end view of one of my sections under construction. The curved white thing on the far right is the unpainted plastic backdrop, which can be snapped out, and removed. The second photo shows a different section with it's painted backdrop in place, & hiding the track behind it.

Traction Fan


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