# BAWBLE rises !



## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi all
I have joined this forum simply because I need to reach a wider and more informed group. I gusss that was my first mistake
I am fairly new to model railways but only due to lack of time in the past. Now I am retired, I have all the time I need.
This is the planned layout It is 17 ft x 8 ft and the boards are 2 ft wide at the widest points







which will be runing N gauge using a DCC system yet to be decided. ( Probably Bachmann Dynamis )
The main problem I have is that I have found a huge diversity of opinion as to whether or not the arrangement in the bottom left righthand corner constitutes a reverse loop.
I feel that it doesn't as the trains return on the opposite line but really need to be sure before I blow a load of expensive electrical equipment. 
This diagram may help.







*A* shows the proposed configuration. *B* shows an expanded version that is to all intents and purposes the same.
*C* shows *B* with the joining tracks removed giving a clearer view of the fact that the layout is in fact a wrapped around single track dogbone with connecting tracks.

Here is my proposed DCC bus installation but I am not sure how well it will come out.









I would very much welcome any comment, criticisms or advice that I can get.
Thanking you all in advance


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think your A-B-C-D diagram is quite revealing. I see a dogbone with connecting tracks. No +/- rail crossover (in DC speak terms).

I'm a novice with track layouts/wiring, though. Other much more expereince guys will likely chime in.

Can I retire at your house, too?!? 

TJ


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> I think your A-B-C-D diagram is quite revealing. I see a dogbone with connecting tracks. No +/- rail crossover (in DC speak terms).
> 
> Can I retire at your house, too?!?
> 
> TJ


You're welcome but you would have to sleep with the layout around you !!


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Good that you found us. With your sense of humor you are welcome here.

B


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

EDIT:
WOW just when I thought I had seen it all!
No you have not. With the reverse wiring on the 2 loops you have not.
There is only one major fault that I see in you design...Your trains will always go the same direction!
and you can not connect the red loop and the blue loop any where else along the line.
I avoid this kind of design myself I like bi directional trains.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

NIMT said:


> EDIT:
> WOW just when I thought I had seen it all!
> No you have not. With the reverse wiring on the 2 loops you have not.
> There is only one major fault that I see in you design...Your trains will always go the same direction!
> ...



But would they in the real world? surely a major collision hazard? hwell:
I am always open to suggested alterations to the layout so let's hear what you have to say


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

M1,

Per your "introduce yourself" post, you've obviously thought about the 3D geometry of the attic setup. That said, the near-wall track a bit to the left of the "dogbone overlap loop" region appears to be awfully close to the sloped roof underside. Are you sure you have adequate overhead clearance for trains there?

TJ


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> M1,
> 
> Per your "introduce yourself" post, you've obviously thought about the 3D geometry of the attic setup. That said, the near-wall track a bit to the left of the "dogbone overlap loop" region appears to be awfully close to the sloped roof underside. Are you sure you have adequate overhead clearance for trains there?
> 
> TJ


I had to be careful round those edges but as you can see here, the baseboard is low down on the purlins giving quite a good clearance above and beside those tracks.


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## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

Without a detailed study I did see the the train can reverse direction therefore there is a 'reverse loop' which will cause a track short.

Try drawing a simplified 'schematic' track plan then color one rail red and the other blue. If the red and blue come together then there is a 'reverse loop' that needs isolation.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Just as I suspected !! Two different answers out of two responses.
hwell:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

M1,

Excellent 3D design / renderings / visualization.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

waltr said:


> Without a detailed study I did see the the train can reverse direction therefore there is a 'reverse loop' which will cause a track short.


Where's the reverse? It's just a dogbone, isn't it?


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> M1,
> 
> Excellent 3D design / renderings / visualization.
> 
> TJ


All credits to Google Sketchup Pro


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Just a thought TJC, but isn't Rhode Island a kind of chicken?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

British humor how lovely!:thumbsup:
Trains go both ways on a train track on our side of the pond!
Try this design out!


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

NIMT said:


> British humor how lovely!:thumbsup:
> Trains go both ways on a train track on our side of the pond!
> Try this design out!
> View attachment 14791


Typical ex-colonials! Never do it right ! 
Try that design out WHERE exactly?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Careful or we'll throw your bloody tea back into the harbor mate!
Look at the pic again I had posted the wrong one.
Put in place of your loops on ther bottom right!
That creates 2 working reverse loops, change your wiring to match inside and outside loops.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

waltr, 
Carefull the sneeky Brit pulled a fast one on us yanks, he wired the inside and outside loops opossite and if you follow it around the lines never cross. Red rail stays red rail and blue rail stays blue rail.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

NIMT said:


> waltr,
> Carefull the sneeky Brit pulled a fast one on us yanks, he wired the inside and outside loops opossite and if you follow it around the lines never cross. Red rail stays red rail and blue rail stays blue rail.


what? Do you mean like this?








Is there anything wrong with wiring it this way??


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Yea like that!
Nothing wrong with it per say, but you cant do fun things like this, to get to your scenic line!


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Ahh !! I see what you are saying. As I have it no train can turn right and cross the other track from it's main line. Do you think there would be any advantage in being able to do that?At the monent I do not have any " right turns" from the main lines


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

I'd say the configuration "A" might be a reverse loop. "B" is definetly a reverse loop but "C" is not. My main question is what are the radii of the curves? I know it's N scale but will the trains take the curves ok without derailing. Pete
Just remember that the Brits all had to wear red and march in a straight line. The "Colonists" could wear anything and hide behind trees and rocks. So who won? However the British did invent Commandos thanks to Churchill so that's something good. Ha!
I would suggest that you take this discussion to the "N" scale category so that anyone in that scale will get to see it. This thread doesn't necessarily get that much attention. Pete from Boston.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

norgale said:


> I know it's N scale but will the trains take the curves ok without derailing. Pete


Yes, I check that already, although there a couple of 9" rad curves, all the stock are small branch line locos and 57 ft coaches. There is no problem with any of the goods wagons either as there is going to be nothing larger than a 15ft chassis used.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

m1...I would agree that there is no need for a reverse module (no track that I see reverses on itself). Even though you can't turn around on your trackwork, I feel you are going to have an awesome ability to run two different trains in opposite directions from each other. Yours is one of the most unique layout designs I have seen in a while, and I like how it makes use of every space available. If I wasn't so cheap when it comes to buying all the required turnouts, I would build the exact same thing!

Chad


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> Yours is one of the most unique layout designs I have seen in a while, and I like how it makes use of every space available. If I wasn't so cheap when it comes to buying all the required turnouts, I would build the exact same thing!
> 
> Chad


Oh Wow ! I shall take that as a huge compliment. Thank you

Two cyber bottles of JD on the way to you !


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

m1racleman,
If you like your design then you got it made your on your way to being a Rail Road Tycoon!
If you want to be able to swap direction that the trains run is would only take a few tweaks here and there to accomplish that too!
There are devices that handle the reverse loop problems automatically so no problem there either!


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I agree with Sean's comments...his advice is always top-notch! I LOVE the idea of a reversing loop...I have only steered away from it for simplicity's sake (one less electrical component to worry about). If they work as well as everyone says, I would love to have a reverse loop on mine too! I look ahead to if the reverse module should fail, now the train will short out, and I can't use the loop until I order another module. This is a minor problem, of course, and maybe they aren't that prone to failure. I see they can be a little spendy too.

Make it two cyber bottles of rum, m1!


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Overall I am happy with the design so, now I know that thre are NO reverse loops at present, I can get on with building it.
How hard can it be ????
I think the first job will be to lay soundproofing on the track beds coz I hate all that drumming from some layouts. I am going to be using a high density polyolefin foam as it has excellent acoustic properties and will allow the track to be secured with double sided tape.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

norgale said:


> I'd say the configuration "A" might be a reverse loop. "B" is definetly a reverse loop but "C" is not.


Pete -- Huh? A, B, and C are all conceptually the same thing. Just the tail ends of a dogbone loop with extra switch connections.




m1racleman said:


> Just a thought TJC, but isn't Rhode Island a kind of chicken?


M1 -- You're right! Our "Rhode Island Red" state bird. Our infamous chicken!

Nice job on the simplified red rail / blue rail schematic. Quite clear, I think. No reverse loop (criss-cross rails), in my opinion.

Sean (NIMT) had some nice ideas to add some inner-loop to outer-loop crossovers. It could expand the versatility / possibilities of train running nicely.

Hey, I hear some of you Brits were able to see the Northern Lights these past few days. True?

Oh ... one other thing. I see you had two near-identical threads going. This one with lots of responses, and another one with just one response. I've deleted the other thread, as I think it's best to have all of the dialog consolidated in one spot for now. I think you'll be best served that way, with the rest of us a bit less confused. Hope you don't mind.

TJ


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

OK. They are all reverse loops then Right? Darn UK would come up with something like this. Why don't the tracks just go around with a couple of crossover for heavens sake. Veddy interesting. Pete


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

No reverse loops. Look at the diagram in post 19. The red rail and the blue rail never touch.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Ok then it's atwo cab setup. When the red train comes around to the blue track the control has to switch to the blue track control. Don't know how this will work with DCC. This is a very interesting situation. Is the train on the left side of the track? They do things different over yonder ya know. Ha! Pete


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Norgale,
It's actually just one cab all the rails can be connected to each other directly with out any shorts.
In DCC everything is powered all the time so there really is as many cab's as you want or as the equipment can handle.
He could put 10 trains on there at 10 points and control them all differntly!
Gotta love DCC for that!


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I think the loop in the lower right-hand part of the layout plan has thrown us off a bit. I don't see a whole lot of use for that loop, but I suppose it can be a good place to turn around and go back the other way, just for a change of pace. Some grain elevators actually load cars in a loop fashion like that. 

Chad


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Alright, M1 ...

I gotta ask the all important, fundamental question ...

"BAWBLE" ? ... B-A-W-B-L-E ???

Do tell, do tell ...


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

TJ,
*B*YTHAM *A*ND *W*ITHAM *B*RANCH *L*INE *E*XECUTIVE

It's on his blue prints

Now what exactly it means is beyond my expertise!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ohh ... I missed that. Good call.

M1 -- chime in here with a class lesson on your jargon, OK? Curious minds await!

TJ


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Ohh ... I missed that. Good call.
> 
> M1 -- chime in here with a class lesson on your jargon, OK? Curious minds await!
> 
> TJ


The Executive are the owners of the branch line !! It uses " executive " in it's real context of having financial control.
Not like a " Sales executive" who is really as " salesperson" 

And a qick update on progress !
There has been none ! 
The reason being that I had a few hundred pounds to spare so I've been on a spending spree. LOADS MORE STUFF FOR THE RAILWAY !!!
And I have also taken on board a few comments about my layout design and am making a few EXPENSIVE alterations. Hopefully I will be able to put some pics up tonight of the revised plan.
Is it me or do all railway modellers spend most of their time just changing plans ?


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> I think the loop in the lower right-hand part of the layout plan has thrown us off a bit. I don't see a whole lot of use for that loop, but I suppose it can be a good place to turn around and go back the other way, just for a change of pace. Some grain elevators actually load cars in a loop fashion like that.
> 
> Chad


It's to add length to the mainline without actually adding track. If you started on the blue loop at Wytham Vale and headed west (clockwise), you'd come around to the loops and turn back onto the red and travelling east (CCW) come back into Wytham Vale from the west, simulating an out-and-back run. Or you could bypass the loops and run two trains in opposite directions for open house demos. I had a few small loops on my layout similar to this and used them for "holding" areas for shorter trains.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

I can just about get a short train on that circle so that it can be passed by another. Nothing longer than a loco and 3 coaches will fit.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

And here is the plan as revised taking into account comments made re operational flexibility.  AND FUN !!!


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

*Dog-gone it!!!*

All this discussion of reversing loops......now I'm going to have to modify my layout plan to make provisions for a loop!!! 

That means I'm taking up more basement.... I can't wait to hear what my wife will be saying about THAT! :laugh:.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

manchesterjim said:


> All this discussion of reversing loops......now I'm going to have to modify my layout plan to make provisions for a loop!!!
> 
> That means I'm taking up more basement.... I can't wait to hear what my wife will be saying about THAT! :laugh:.


 It's nice to know that I can stimulate a bit of healthy discussion.
Much better to start an argument though !!


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

m1racleman said:


> Much better to start an argument though !!


You Brits......ALWAYS spoiling for a fight! :laugh:

Thanks for the line of thought though.....I would have been bored in about a week of completion had I not decided to include this


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

So loop area 2 and top-right area are underground?

New yardwork looks like a nice operational improvement!

TJ


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> So loop area 2 and top-right area are underground?
> 
> New yardwork looks like a nice operational improvement!
> 
> TJ


Go to the top of the class young man !


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Yea, Cable, that's a good explanation for the loop. I can certainly buy into that! I knew it had its purpose somehow!

Chad


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi guys! and Gals ???
I'm ba-ack !!
Been taking a break in hospital for a few weeks but now I'm back home and ready to get on with the building.
Updates coming soon folks !


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

M1,

Great to have you back onboard! I hope whatever was going on in the hospital has had happy results.

Looking forward to further details of this exciting layout build!

TJ


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

No reverse loop. A is not. B is not and C is not. Good layout but it dose need a reverse loop.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> M1,
> 
> I hope whatever was going on in the hospital has had happy results.
> 
> ...


I think coming out alive was a good enuff result for now !! 

The trouble I have now is that I have a few weeks work to catch up on. Never mind though, there are 24 hours in a day after all.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

*Back to the reverse loop topic*

I only just noticed that with the revised design, it is possible to enter and exit storage yards etc. from any track and any direction.  That sounds like a crash waiting to happen.  So I guess I had better keep it that way.
While I have been away, the baseboards have been completed and I am now laying track at a good rate of knots ( or not as the case may be ). I'll concentrate on the main runs and leave the single track branch and the sidings for later. I'm getting in need of seeing some trains running.

Hey, do any of you guys have a cheap source of Digitrax decoders?? I will need about a dozen wires only DZ125 and thought I mat be able to get them cheaper direct from across the pond.


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## m1racleman (Jan 25, 2012)

Southern said:


> No reverse loop. A is not. B is not and C is not. Good layout but it dose need a reverse loop.


! See my previous post


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Glad you found the reverse loop.....better now than later. Cheap decoders?.....did not know that was a part of DCC wiring and controls......love my DC layout


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