# New Lionel 21" Passenger Cars



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I am anxious for PTC and others to get back from York so we can have a good discussion about the new Lionel 21" passenger cars. Some of the questions are:

1. Finish: How good do they look? Compare to K-Line?
2. Windows: Do they protrude on the outside like previous Lionels?
3. Passengers: Come without, how hard to install?
4. How close do they couple?
5. Lighting: What kind? 
6. Lighted drumheads?
7. What road names are available?

Pictures are very helpful.

Art


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm also keen to know about these and to see photos on this forum (which I'd guess will happen today or tomorrow) but reports from York already disclose answers to most of your questions:

1. They are ABS so don't expect them to look like classic stainless steel passenger cars as the painted finish is simply a representation of metal. Prototypes that were painted and did not have, for example, stainless steel fluting should be better represented. Think UP excursion cars.

2. No. There are photos of the NYC samples posted on the other forum and it's clear (to me) that the windows are flush-fitting, which is what Lionel said they would do with these.

3. According to reports (a) getting at the interiors is a matter of removing four screws only and (b) Lionel proposes to sell passenger figures for those of us (including me) who don't want riderless trains! I don't think Lionel has announced this in print so believe it when it actually happens.

4. Pretty close according to the photos. Someone has said that the trucks appear to have off-center mounts to allow for use on O-54 curves. Unfortunately it also looks like the cars ride fairly high on the mounts, which was also evident when Mike Reagan posted some photos of the NYC sample. Maybe this will be changed in the production models (?)

5. LEDs that are flicker-free.

6. Not sure about this; photos appear to show that the NYC observation car has a lighted name board at the back.

7. I think only the Empire State set cars are on display but no one's suggested that the other 21" road names in the last Lionel catalog won't be made.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I wasn't all that interested in NYC stuff, but the cars looked nice. They do not look like real stainless steel, not even close. They run on O54 and have very good lighting, no doubt about it. No passengers, which I found a bit strange, or maybe that's cheap. They did ride pretty high off the trucks, I didn't like that look. The new GG1 was also pretty high off the trucks, that was somewhat of a surprise, and it looked pretty lame.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks GRJ, that's very much my impression from other sources. hwell:

Don't know what I was thinking about earlier or I would have suggested that there's question 8 that should be added to the list; what are the interiors of the new cars like apart from being empty of passengers? 

When announcing these new ABS cars, Lionel promised "highly detailed" interiors but I can make out very little from the photos so far posted (elsewhere) of the NYS ESE cars. The color appears to be plain vanilla but seating, tables etc are not distinct enough to get any reliable idea. 

Over the years, Lionel's higher-end passengers car interiors have been fairly variable in terms of details BUT in most cases they were actually superior to K-Line or at least where Lionel was not using old K-Line stock parts. IMO the interiors are the only real drawback of K-Line 21" cars (leaving on one side the current draw of their incandescent Streamlighting).

No doubt we'll be told by the passenger car aficionados at York what you can see through the (flush mounted) windows!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I probably don't quality as a passenger car guru, but the interiors looked pretty much like previous models to me. The windows were flush mount, clearly a step up from the previous cars.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2015)

Art, let me see if I can shed some light on this subject.

1. The cars are plastic in the 21" size.
2. The lighting is LED's and very nice.
3. The finish is more on the dull side as opposed to bright shiny stainless steel.
4. The coupling is good and adjusts to the curve (same as their large freight car line).
5. Like most of the Lionel product line, they do ride somewhat high.
6. It has a lighted drumhead.

Here are some photos I took at the Lionel display:

View attachment 92089


View attachment 92097


View attachment 92105


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm looking forward to Brian's report on these.

For those who want to detail interiors, Delta models sells about everything you can think about.

You could literally build a complete interior from their parts.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> I'm looking forward to Brian's report on these.
> 
> For those who want to detail interiors, Delta models sells about everything you can think about.
> 
> You could literally build a complete interior from their parts.


They do and you could - I have used a number of their parts (and accumulated many more for future projects), which can be adapted to models of Pullman, Budd and ACF-built cars. Bill Basden is an asset to the O scale community not least because suppliers of such parts are not numerous.

The parts are more true to scale however than Lionel 21" passenger car interiors, which are rather smaller, so some cutting down to size is needed. That and finishing/painting is not a short process although I like the results.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

By the time you build interiors with the Delta models stuff, you could buy most any passenger car set, they're pretty spendy!


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

I had high hopes for these being a 21" passenger car guy myself, both GGD and K-line. Sadly from all reports and photos these aren't as detailed as the Atlas O CZ cars nor do they have the quality of finish seen in K-line's passenger cars of a decade ago.

In terms of interior details there are plenty of options to build out ultra detailed interiors, if that is your thing, it's not mine. I've seen some amazing things done all the way down to scale size food on dining tables, and micro reproductions of original artwork hanging on the walls of the cars. More often than not these are shown with the car roofs taken off, I've wondered how they might look rolling along or even sitting along the edge of the layout, would one even notice the super detailing? A touch of colored paint for seating and tables might be a reasonable, in both time and cost, upgrade to either these new Lionel cars or the K-line's, helping deal with the vanilla interiors. Passengers, lots of them, also make a massive difference.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> By the time you build interiors with the Delta models stuff, you could buy most any passenger car set, they're pretty spendy!


Yeah, the passenger car lighting kits from Hennings are a bargain in comparison  as well as easier to work with. It's all relative however depending on how obsessive you are about passenger car details and, maybe most of all, about having interiors that match the beauty of certain aluminum car exteriors. The biggest expense is the time it takes.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I will agree with Brian's assessment of the new Lionel passenger cars. My criteria for any model passenger train that I would buy are: 
A)It must be 21" scale 
B)How does it look? 
C) How well does it operate?

I did not expect the cars to be very shiny. Only so much can be done to a plastic car without plating it. I'm confident that the cars for roads in painted liveries with be very nice. Actually I'm ok with the finish, as in my 58 years on this planet I've never seen a mirror finish on a rail car of any type. But I certainly do love the K-Line aluminum cars.

For most detailing of any rolling stock, including interiors of passenger cars, I love to have as much as possible, but if it looks good using my _how good it looks from three feet away at speed on the track_ criteria is usually good enough for me to buy. Lionel has finally rid their cars of those stick on windows. The windows on these new cars look very realistic to me and I do like the lighting inside.

The adjustable couplers are a great addition for operation, being close together on straight track and still able to negotiate tighter (as 21" cars go) curves.

The Lionel cars are still not at a level of Golden Gate Depot Passenger cars (No non-brass offerings are), and maybe even or a tad behind Atlas O, but if they make a road name I like and that I don't already own (which is dwindling) I will definitely buy the Lionel 21" passenger sets. I do have my eye on the Wabash set _(thanks Brian!)_ and the announced UP Excursion set.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> By the time you build interiors with the Delta models stuff, you could buy most any passenger car set, they're pretty spendy!


Yeah, I know what you mean, they're stuff is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination!


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I am not impressed of the 21" cars to say the least. No passengers, not detailed as I think it should be, does not look anything like aluminum, the paint is fine but overall effect is just ok. 

For the price you can do better.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

From what I have seen in the pictures...just like the new catalog and the new Vision Line offering, truely disappointing after all the hype.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, Lionel didn't wow me this trip, not like when I first saw the VL-BB and got sucked in!


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, Lionel didn't wow me this trip, not like when I first saw the VL-BB and got sucked in!


I think that we may all have to wait to be wowed until next year's Signature catalog when the UP excursion cars are shown. I think I have obsessively looked at every video from York and at the tail end of the TCA session Ryan K. talked a bit about those cars in answer to the only two or three questions that were put to him. While he gave no indication which specific cars Lionel would make it was clear that they would have prototypical interiors as well as the close coupling and lighting features that the first issue of the ABS 21" cars have.

Even though the price of the new GG1 has not been announced it's currently losing out in my wish list to the excursion set assuming that includes the flag baggage car and some of the other distinctive rolling stock that UP uses.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2015)

There was a lot of anticipation about these new offerings from Lionel. I was anxious to arrive at the TCA Museum presentations to get a first look at them. Previously I had been told by a source that had reported he had seen a sample of them some time ago that they were outstanding and some of the best passenger cars he had ever seen. It was also reported that the stainless steel effect was bright and shiny. So I was totally taken off guard when I saw a somewhat dull finish. Maybe a tad brighter that the Atlas CZ set finish, but not much. This really dampened my spirits as I had hoped to see something like a K-Line car.

In fairness to Lionel, I think they produced a car that is on their mark from the get-go. When you paint plastic, this is what you get. The lighting is very good, I like the new coupling system, and populating the interiors is no big deal. And considering the price point at the discounted retail level, they appear to be reasonable.

Just my take.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Just a thought-it's very possible to make plastic resemble metal models. Been doing it for years on plastic model airplanes. However, it's a very tedious process, requires extreme care, and worst yet, limited handling. Dull coat changes the 'hue' and ruins the look, IMO, of all that work.

I'm sure Lionel knows the same thing I just stated. A great compromise is what they've planned on making for us. Given these are prototype samples, I wouldn't be surprised to see the production cars appear more like the Atlas CZ cars. Who knows at this point...

As for the UP Excursion cars, I CAN'T wait! 

If I could be 'Top Dog for a Day' I'd fix a lot of things in Washington and the 21" UP Excursion Train would be sold with the observation as a separate sale item, while the "FLAG" car would be sold in a 2 pack! I may want more than one!

Alas, you boys have nothing to fear....


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2015)

Aaron, I believe what we saw at York are production models. They had the retail boxes on display.

There is no reason not to think that the UP Excursion set will be a winner. The exterior finish will not present a problem as they are supposed to be UP yellow paint anyway.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Aaron, I believe what we saw at York are production models. They had the retail boxes on display..


Brian,
No kidding?! NOW I get it! I really thought those were samples, thanks for the update.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2015)

I think you will see the ESE Hudsons and these cars in the train stores shortly.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

To be honest though, if I didn't already have the Empire State Express from Golden Gate Depot I would have definitely ordered the new Lionel set.

If all the manufacturers made these sets at the same time we'd have choices. But since they don't, and if you_ really _want a set in a road name you want, you pay your dues and take your chances.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know that I saw a price for the 21" passenger set. In any case, I figured they'd do a better job with the interiors, they looked pretty "plain Jane".


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> In any case, I figured they'd do a better job with the interiors, they looked pretty "plain Jane".


My sentiments exactly, John, although I have called these interiors "plain vanilla" - which is possibly a more sympathetic description than "plain Jane."

Incidentally, what I could see of the ESE cars' interiors put me in mind of this photo from Brian's great layout, which shows the brightly lit interior of a K-Line CZ domed observation car that I covet (sorry Brian):









I await the UP excursion cars with interest.


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## Pingman (Aug 18, 2015)

I've seen the photos of the new ESE 21" cars and I was disappointed for those who hoped for more. The finish is not close to the stainless steel of the prototype, and those thick rubber pieces for the ends are an eyesore--Atlas and K-Line didn't use them. Props to LIONEL for the LED lighting w/ capacitors to keep them lighted after track power is removed and the Kinematic couplers, but I was expecting more for unpainted streamliners.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The lighting worked well, but I think they went for overkill. I've never had any complaints with my lighting modules with maybe a 1/4 second holdup time. Having 20-30 seconds of light after power goes out doesn't seem to be all that necessary to me.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The lighting worked well, but I think they went for overkill. I've never had any complaints with my lighting modules with maybe a 1/4 second holdup time. Having 20-30 seconds of light after power goes out doesn't seem to be all that necessary to me.


More than a second or two is overkill, as I see it. 

These 21 inch cars are underwhelming. I realize every product is made to some sort of budget, but these seem less detailed and "finished" than MTH's 18" cars, which I assumed Lionel would be using as a litmus test for "good." Very disappointing, actually.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My thoughts exactly. I think Lionel spent more time on the exterior details of the cars and didn't think about the interiors.

I don't need any more passenger cars anyway, last count was 76, somehow I think that's enough, at least for this year.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2015)

Andy, that's an old photo I had long forgot about. But is sure points out how the finish *"SHOULD"* look like. K-Line did the stainless steel effect correctly and set a benchmark that no one has come close to since. It is hard to like the new offerings, either from Atlas or Lionel compared to K-Line cars.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2015)

Here is another look at how the stainless steel effect should look.

View attachment 93225


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can assure you that the Lionel cars look nothing like that!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My thoughts exactly. I think Lionel spent more time on the exterior details of the cars and didn't think about the interiors.
> 
> I don't need any more passenger cars anyway, last count was 76, somehow I think that's enough, at least for this year.


Ah, come on John, you're barely started !



Passenger Train Collector said:


> Andy, that's an old photo I had long forgot about. But is sure points out how the finish *"SHOULD"* look like. K-Line did the stainless steel effect correctly and set a benchmark that no one has come close to since. It is hard to like the new offerings, either from Atlas or Lionel compared to K-Line cars.


I'm with Brian, I still think K-Line made the best passenger cars for the money...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I may be *just started* if you're comparing my collection to Brian's, but look at his forum name!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I may be *just started* if you're comparing my collection to Brian's, but look at his forum name!


HAHA! Funny! NONE of us could possibly compete with Brain on that one!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's a very safe statement I suspect.


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## AndyH (Sep 21, 2015)

I agree that the Lionel finish can't compare with K-Line, but it is always possible that Lionel may improve on that kind of finish in the future.

I for one am excited that they are making these new cars easy to access, so that those of us that want more than just a handful of figures can add as many as we like, and those who wish to really detail the interiors will be able to do so.

I'm hoping to see some PRR in the next catalog. 

Andy


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2015)

*"I'm hoping to see some PRR in the next catalog."*

I think that is a safe bet, Andy, with the introduction of the VL GG1.

*You also make an excellent point*. I think that the introduction of the 21" cars will serve as a learning point for Lionel. I am excited about learning more about the UP excursion train that should be a HUGE seller for them with all the folks who currently have a FEF Northern and those who are purchasing the newest offering of this beautiful engine.

Overall, we have a lot to be thankful for in the 21" passenger cars market. Atlas and GGD are doing their part to give us a lot of options. Add to this Lionel's aggressive entree to this market, we will have a lot of choices in the future.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It'll be interesting to see how Lionel's figures are priced. What is really needed is a source of higher quality and reasonably priced passenger figures. I don't hold out a lot of hope that Lionel will price these affordably, but we can always dream.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It'll be interesting to see how Lionel's figures are priced. What is really needed is a source of higher quality and reasonably priced passenger figures. I don't hold out a lot of hope that Lionel will price these affordably, but we can always dream.


I fear that you are right about price but the other question that occurs to me is whether and where they might source figures that actually fit in the cars' seating without, er, radical surgery.

In the not so distant past, say around 2005-2007, Lionel used figures that were obviously smaller than 1/48 scale - more like 1/55 or even 1/60 - and I know from recent work on a car that contains such figures that they were not solid/rigid plastic but something flexible like latex. In any case they were proportionate to their surroundings inside the cars.

I have not found anything of this kind available from the usual sources, which are all in HK or China. Most figures advertised as "O" scale are just too big for what are actually the semi-scale interiors of Lionel's cars, even including their 21" models. I have found ways to use some of these Little People without mangling them but many of the rest look like they are at least 7 scale feet tall! hwell:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use S-scale figures for most cars, even some of those need the feet lopped off to fit.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I always wondered how HO people figures would look inside passenger cars. With a moving train I'm thinking that just the 'look' of people inside the cars would look ok. When moving it's tough to see much detail of the people anyway, and HO figures may be easier to install?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Yes, they fit but just look too small - especially if you have larger "people" elsewhere in the same train.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2015)

I agree with John's suggestion of S scale figures. They look perfect in passenger cars. Thanks for suggesting this, John.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I do use the smaller figures sprinkled around to make them look like children. It's practically impossible to find child figures, especially seated ones. 

I've primarily used the Chinese figures because of the price, it's usually pretty hard to see the difference when a passenger train comes cruising by. They're not ideal, but the 10:1 difference in price over the higher quality figures is hard to ignore.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2015)

When the passenger cars are in motion, you can't tell the difference anyway between figures.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

That's what I was thinking. You only really need to see heads in the windows.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think I'll use the whole person.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Hmmm, a head on a toothpick!! Outstanding idea, John!


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

How about a bobble-head doll, John?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes, I think the bobble-head is the answer.


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