# Speed



## kix662003

After have a couple derailments today because my train stalls at speeds under 90 "mph" and I have to "fly", I thought I'd look on YouTube to see what speeds other postwar trains travel. In some videos, the Atlantic steamers are going full-throttle like I have to run mine, but in other videos, there are trains creeping along, pulling a lot of cars at slower speeds, etc. I looked closely to see if the locomotives are the new ones made by Lionel or classic Gilbert. There are old classics running slowly. I have the same speed issues on a basic circle of track or on my new layout when using my 50-watt 1.5B transformer or the 175 watt 16B. The 16B does have what I would call a floppy speed control handle, but I'm not accustomed to the deadman's control yet. Since it came from Timboy and looks like new, I would hope that it works as designed. He listed it as being in perfect working order.

There are probably posts somewhere in the archives, but my question is specific to a certain type (4-4-2). Barker states in his book that changing to DC using diodes gives more control, but he doesn't mention speed control. Does anyone else running postwar American Flyer Atlantic locomotives know of a solution? Perhaps if I could slow the train down without it stalling, it would stay on the tracks!


----------



## Aflyer

Kix,
HI, glad to see you are doing so well. 

I have a couple of 4-4-2's, AF 303's, and they will run down pretty slow without stalling. Do you have the stalling problem on level track, or only on grades.

I recall talking about speed being a problem for you earlier, thus the upgrade to the bigger Transformer.

All my stuff is packed up, and I have had so much going on I have not worked on my layout in almost two months, so I can't go test anything for you. 

But I am thinking that setting the throttle control anywhere in the 40-50 MPH range would give me a speed that was comfortable without going airborne. I have no idea how that relates to scale speed.

What is the lowest setting that will allow the train to run without stalling? And how many cars are you pulling?

Aflyer


----------



## broox

can you mod the motor/drivetrain, like say installing a flywheel, to improve low speed performance?

ir is it not reall possible with S scale?


----------



## kix662003

Thanks for the replies. I don't know the answer to Broox's question, but the only mod that I'm aware of is switching to DC. The new transformer cured the power loss to the track when the turnouts are engaged, but that's all. It turns out that the variable Voltage part that controls the train speed must be worn out, even though it does supply erratic Voltage. At over $75, it turned out to be an expensive, but good looking power supply for track accessories. Had I only realized that I could have used a PC power supply for free! Oh well. I'm not planning to get it fixed or rebuilt, and I'm going to stay away from anything with moving parts or antique items on eBay. I can't say that Timboy knew this transformer was shot when he listed it, and I'm not saying that he's dishonest, but my getting crap from sellers has become the norm. I bought a AF307 engine to have a spare a while back, and it arrived in a bunch of pieces. It was listed as tested, running good and in great shape it that listing. Buyer Protection worked that time, and I didn't lose any money in the end. A wise man on this forum suggested early on that I just keep this train in a box and use it under the tree at Christmas time. I'm thinking that I should have heeded his advice! This antique train set has brought me in touch with some great people here on the forum, but I can't afford to keep spending more money on this Flyer set to make it enjoyable. I realize that I should have dug it out when I still had a job and an income! My original transformer (1.5B) needed another power clip 2/3 of the way around the layout. It runs the engine at 90 without stalling now. That's an improvement over full-throttle.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

It seems you have had series of issues that have clouded the specific problem you first wrote about -- that being the ability to run the Atlantic slower without stalling. I am not aware of the requirements to return the 16B to "like new" condition. But if it's anything like an 18B/30B dual transformer, it might be as simple as replacing the carbon roller which is a very low cost part. But back to the engine in question....have you done any servicing on this unit?? -- I do not remember all the thread content you have posted during this project and whether you did servicing. The engine may just need a little TLC to be able to run at a slower speed. I found that after servicing some of my engines, that is the result. That is also a very low cost option...mainly just a thorough cleanup and lube.


----------



## Southern Tier

I've had similar speed problems with my 293, 326 and 336, the 336 has recently been completely cleaned and lubed. Cleaning the track helps, but not a perfect solution, especially for the Northern 336 which wants to fly beyond the rails when it should be riding the rails.

I have 3 690s pretty equally spaced on my layout. I have checked the voltage at 2 ft intervals starting at 30 mph,(transformer) moving up in increments to 120 mph, all readings appeared to me to be good. This with my 18b transformer 175w/2, and my 15b at 110w with no difference in locomotive performance. The 18b has never been serviced, we got it new in the early 50s, the 15b is unknown to me, I bought it at auction.

Here again, my lack of electronic knowledge comes into play. Even though the voltage is good, could the wattage drawn be lessened by old carbon rollers or some other simple fix? I don't know how to measure the amperage. 

I'm old, but not too old to learn...lol


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

broox -- I believe can motors (both AC and DC) are sold that can be interchanged with the original AF motors. This may improve his slow speed performance. But as he stated, the cost is something he isn't prepared to invest.

I'm thinking if he services the engine -- a good cleaning and lube -- the low speed performance may return.


----------



## sjm9911

Kix, I no nothing about flyer stuff but I would give the engine a good cleaning, and lube job first. The engine should be capable of a lower if not slow speed. Are you running the engine alone or with cars? I would also check to see if the wheels are spinning on the engine, I had that problem and cleaned the wheels and added some cars for weight. It helped. The engine by itself would almost stand still until the transformer was at a high voltage. Then vooom, it took off like a bullet. Clean track never hurts also. I'm sure others will chime in. But you have a starting point, I think?


----------



## llskis

kix662003 said:


> After have a couple derailments today because my train stalls at speeds under 90 "mph" and I have to "fly", I thought I'd look on YouTube to see what speeds other postwar trains travel. In some videos, the Atlantic steamers are going full-throttle like I have to run mine, but in other videos, there are trains creeping along, pulling a lot of cars at slower speeds, etc. I looked closely to see if the locomotives are the new ones made by Lionel or classic Gilbert. There are old classics running slowly. I have the same speed issues on a basic circle of track or on my new layout when using my 50-watt 1.5B transformer or the 175 watt 16B. The 16B does have what I would call a floppy speed control handle, but I'm not accustomed to the deadman's control yet. Since it came from Timboy and looks like new, I would hope that it works as designed. He listed it as being in perfect working order.
> 
> There are probably posts somewhere in the archives, but my question is specific to a certain type (4-4-2). Barker states in his book that changing to DC using diodes gives more control, but he doesn't mention speed control. Does anyone else running postwar American Flyer Atlantic locomotives know of a solution? Perhaps if I could slow the train down without it stalling, it would stay on the tracks!


Why not get a A/F #15 Rectifier (Ebay has them very reasonable) and run you engine on DC?
That way you can still run your AC transformer. It has been my experience that running DC is so much better. Some newer Lionel A/F can run on DC also. This way you do not have to fool around inserting diodes and losing the originality of the A/F engine. IMHO Larry


----------



## The New Guy

kix662003 said:


> ...It turns out that the variable Voltage part that controls the train speed must be worn out, even though it does supply erratic Voltage...


When you have a minute pop off the black bakelite cover - I'd like a picture of your contact. There are a couple things that are free to fix - it could be shorting through the shoulder rivet to the frame, maybe the carbon roller is worn away or bent out.


----------



## kix662003

I went back out after lunch, and continued to run the train and look for causes. Part of the stalling was the 16B transformer cutting out. The little 1.5B doesn't do that, but it doesn't want to shut completely off with the handle (now). I have to cut power at the strip when I try to run it slower and it stalls. 

llskis - If I go to DC, is there a low-dollar DC transformer to run the train? 

My little 1.5B doesn't have 10 hours on it since new, but only provides 12 Volts max. The 16B puts out 18 Volts. I wonder if that's too much for the 303 engine? The booklet calls for 6-15 Volts, and neither transformer reach or quit at 15. The 16B isn't listed as an optional transformer for the 5615T Black Diamond Freight Set. Only 15 Volt units are listed. 

sjm991 - I have been through the engine, cleaned, a little bit of lube and light oil on axles. My tender wheels sparkle and are cleaned regularly. With so few hours on the engine, it had crusty lube but very little dirt. I still took it apart and cleaned it thoroughly as the books instruct. The only thing I've noticed is that trying to eliminate reversing with the slider on the tender does not work. No matter what function the unit is in when I move the lever, the engine light will come on - the engine buzzes - but won't move. If I put the slider back, everything works. If this is a symptom of something being wrong, it has it. Keeping the reverse unit is only an issue when the 1.5B won't shut off so I can cycle through the range. If I go to DC, the reverse unit is eliminated, and that's one reason I've considered converting.

I only have enough power to pull the caboose with the 1.5B, and when I bought the first turnouts, the train practically stopped when I used the remote control. The PulMor bands looks fine and I see no slippage (I can raise the layout to eye level and watch). This has been a problem since the day after I cleaned everything for it's initial run. I haven't tried to use the accessory terminal on the 16B and run the train without being able to vary the Voltage. The Atlantics aren't much in the eyes of must people, but it's all I've got, and I don't want to destroy it on purpose. I was thinking of asking my son to bring a couple rheostats over and see it we can vary the accy Voltage, but if the carbon roller is inexpensive, I may just get him to replace that. Is there a good source? It may be an alternative to adding the Rectifier. llskis is right about the cost of parts for DC. 

Nuttin But Flyer and others say that they want to keep their old trains original, which sounds like a good plan. But it's become a hard choice. I saw a bunch of Lionel transformers at the local shows, being sold by local dealers that will stand behind their products, but I bought one that Gilbert produced to keep it all original. I wasn't aware the Voltage was higher at the time, but figured it was a good thing when I did. 

Now when running the train with 50 Watts and 12 Volts again, I seem to be lacking power, yet lacking the ability to run a slower speeds than 90 mph. The 16B didn't change that, but the turnouts crisply change position with it. It's like sjm9911 said, it should run at a lower speed and like Southern Tier, I have three equally spaced 690s powering the track, and have 2 more if I need them. If I add more than one car, the speed goes from too fast to stalled, or leaves the car on the track. I've gone from no turnouts in the layout to six, and now I need to figure out how to "bend the coupler" on the tender up to get more clearance when crossing the turnouts. The booklet doesn't say what to use or where to bend. I could use some advice. Maybe then I won't lose the caboose on the inner loop.

I own a Kill-A-Watt meter that shows draw and average Watts used. Would this be a tool to see what's wrong? It's easy enough to get numbers if they mean anything.

Sorry to be such a needy person here, but you guys are all I have to draw from. I don't think my back will allow me to drive 25 miles to the nearest LHS yet, and the store is so small I don't think they could even test the engine there. There is another LHS in Delaware, but that's even farther away. I really appreciate the input and help. I was so caught up in building a suspended train board since running the old train in February that I'm just now having to work out the kinks. The layout has changed and grown a lot, but I'm only trying to use the track that's been in place for a month or so. I knew about some of these things, but figured a higher Watt transformer was what I needed. Don, I've had the 16B too long for Buyer Protection even though I've only turned it on two times. It does put out the Voltage. Maybe that what Timboy meant. His big layout was converted to DC and he may not have used the transformers seen in the videos as designed. He had so much to power, several of the 16Bs were probably supplying power to accessories and not the trains. With you guys throwing out things to try and checking on things I should be doing, this old train may tun right again!


----------



## kix662003

The New Guy said:


> When you have a minute pop off the black bakelite cover - I'd like a picture of your contact. There are a couple things that are free to fix - it could be shorting through the shoulder rivet to the frame, maybe the carbon roller is worn away or bent out.


I will do that. The 1.5B is acting up too. Maybe you can see what's going on there as well.
thanks!


----------



## kix662003

The New Guy said:


> When you have a minute pop off the black bakelite cover - I'd like a picture of your contact. There are a couple things that are free to fix - it could be shorting through the shoulder rivet to the frame, maybe the carbon roller is worn away or bent out.


Here you go.. one head on and one from the side. I didn't reduce the images so you can see the contact. Thanks for any help!


----------



## sjm9911

Just a thought. So I belive were are thinking that the electrical power is somehow Eaither not making it to the rrig at lower voltage or is not being prossesed by the engine itself. I'm just trying to do process of elimination here. Remember I don't do American flyer, only Lionel, and I really don't understand two rail. With that in mind is there a way to connect the train on its back directly up to the transformer in order to run it. If it runs under lower voltage like that you would eliminate the eng and the transformer as problems. I would still take pic of them fot the new guy. The problem could be resistance in the track through a faulty connection, switch, also. Just trying to cover all the bases, almost like thinking out loud.


----------



## Southern Tier

sjm9911 said:


> With that in mind is there a way to connect the train on its back directly up to the transformer in order to run it...If it runs under lower voltage like that you would eliminate the eng and the transformer as problems...The problem could be resistance in the track through a faulty connection, switch, also.


I've done exactly that in my cradle and all locomotives perform with positive results. So that leaves a couple things I can think of, your thought of track resistance. 

My puzzelment there has to do with the voltage tests I made. At each setting I tested (mph) the voltage remained the same anywhere on the layout ie if I set the transformer on 60mph and got 15v I got that at any location on the layout.

The other thing that comes to mind is friction, upside down there is not much. Three of my steamers are cast; the 336 engine and tender alone weigh in excess of 4 pounds I believe. Now I do have one plastic steamer and it runs like the wind, always has and never derails. 

Another thought, levelness of track. I haven't checked mine on this current layout.


----------



## kix662003

Southern Tier said:


> I've done exactly that in my cradle and all locomotives perform with positive results. So that leaves a couple things I can think of, your thought of track resistance.
> 
> My puzzelment there has to do with the voltage tests I made. At each setting I tested (mph) the voltage remained the same anywhere on the layout ie if I set the transformer on 60mph and got 15v I got that at any location on the layout.
> 
> The other thing that comes to mind is friction, upside down there is not much. Three of my steamers are cast; the 336 engine and tender alone weigh in excess of 4 pounds I believe. Now I do have one plastic steamer and it runs like the wind, always has and never derails.
> 
> Another thought, levelness of track. I haven't checked mine on this current layout.


Wow. My big photos screwed up the page width! Sorry about that.

I'll check the Voltage at the various speeds on the transformers and see when and how much it changes. Good thought. I will also pick some places on the track to check Voltage readings, but the engine will stall anywhere when I reduce power; right at the feeder or anywhere else. My track is now level within 1/2". The train derails when using the 16B transformer @ 18 Volts and not the 1.5B putting out 12 Volts. I'm convinced that if the train would run slower without stalling, I could have varying levels on the layout again. Thanks for your thoughts! I'll check the Voltage readings in the morning.


----------



## Southern Tier

So I don't mislead, when I spoke of level I was referring across the tracks and not elevation. My plasic steamer, 23100 is one of the smaller AF engines and runs on a trestled figure 8, the smallest radius AF configuration. These flyer engines are top heavy. I wasn't aware that travel down grades could be a problem. 

I usually pull 10 or less cars with the cast engines. It takes about half throttle to get the 336 moving, then you can slow it down some; but like yours it is subject to stalling and the speed will slow and speed up on various sections. The other two cast engines are more consistent but not without issues. I'm leaning to he resistance thing.


----------



## kix662003

After thinking about everything that was recommended yesterday, I may need to add more lube in my engine. This time I'll buy some of the lubes found in recent MRR magazine ads. Petroleum Jelly used to be all that was needed in the 1950s. I was so cautious about over-lubing, I may not have used enough to do the job. Plans are to clean the loco and tender again and apply some new, store bought lube where indicated.

Maybe my old 303 used to run a figure-8 back in the mid-50s. I have the AF black plastic trestle set that begins with .5" and goes to 4.5". I don't remember much about the train from the olden days though. I still have my old Marx crossing gate (goes up and down with power, but no working lights), and my old Marx trestle bridge minus the signage on either side. I'll keep them on the layout.

Track continuity was a concern of mine a while back. I asked in a post whether I should replace the steel rail pins. I think everyone said I shouldn't need to. I thought the lack of power or stalling was track related. My original track that made the simple oval is like new. Then I bought 12 straight pieces at a show to expand the layout. Then, shaygetz posted track and accessories off of a layout he had stored in his barn and didn't really want or need. I have that track too, but only on a non-powered service loop where I can put structures and accessories to add interest. I was very careful to clean and wire brush (soft copper bristles) the pins on each powered piece. The four additional turnouts are in the powered loops though. 

I wish someone who runs Flyer lived close. I'd ask them to bring their engine to run on my layout. I only have the 303. I'm really reluctant to buy any used engines or transformers, and eBay has gotten to be a bad word. I even got stuck with a conversion van from eBay that I could never get a title for. One good experience in the last four will deter a buyer.

Thanks for the clarification and the help! I really appreciate everyone's interest in helping me solve the problems that I'm experiencing.


----------



## llskis

kix662003 said:


> I went back out after lunch, and continued to run the train and look for causes. Part of the stalling was the 16B transformer cutting out. The little 1.5B doesn't do that, but it doesn't want to shut completely off with the handle (now). I have to cut power at the strip when I try to run it slower and it stalls.
> 
> llskis - If I go to DC, is there a low-dollar DC transformer to run the train?
> 
> My little 1.5B doesn't have 10 hours on it since new, but only provides 12 Volts max. The 16B puts out 18 Volts. I wonder if that's too much for the 303 engine? The booklet calls for 6-15 Volts, and neither transformer reach or quit at 15. The 16B isn't listed as an optional transformer for the 5615T Black Diamond Freight Set. Only 15 Volt units are listed.
> 
> sjm991 - I have been through the engine, cleaned, a little bit of lube and light oil on axles. My tender wheels sparkle and are cleaned regularly. With so few hours on the engine, it had crusty lube but very little dirt. I still took it apart and cleaned it thoroughly as the books instruct. The only thing I've noticed is that trying to eliminate reversing with the slider on the tender does not work. No matter what function the unit is in when I move the lever, the engine light will come on - the engine buzzes - but won't move. If I put the slider back, everything works. If this is a symptom of something being wrong, it has it. Keeping the reverse unit is only an issue when the 1.5B won't shut off so I can cycle through the range. If I go to DC, the reverse unit is eliminated, and that's one reason I've considered converting.
> 
> I only have enough power to pull the caboose with the 1.5B, and when I bought the first turnouts, the train practically stopped when I used the remote control. The PulMor bands looks fine and I see no slippage (I can raise the layout to eye level and watch). This has been a problem since the day after I cleaned everything for it's initial run. I haven't tried to use the accessory terminal on the 16B and run the train without being able to vary the Voltage. The Atlantics aren't much in the eyes of must people, but it's all I've got, and I don't want to destroy it on purpose. I was thinking of asking my son to bring a couple rheostats over and see it we can vary the accy Voltage, but if the carbon roller is inexpensive, I may just get him to replace that. Is there a good source? It may be an alternative to adding the Rectifier. llskis is right about the cost of parts for DC.
> 
> Nuttin But Flyer and others say that they want to keep their old trains original, which sounds like a good plan. But it's become a hard choice. I saw a bunch of Lionel transformers at the local shows, being sold by local dealers that will stand behind their products, but I bought one that Gilbert produced to keep it all original. I wasn't aware the Voltage was higher at the time, but figured it was a good thing when I did.
> 
> Now when running the train with 50 Watts and 12 Volts again, I seem to be lacking power, yet lacking the ability to run a slower speeds than 90 mph. The 16B didn't change that, but the turnouts crisply change position with it. It's like sjm9911 said, it should run at a lower speed and like Southern Tier, I have three equally spaced 690s powering the track, and have 2 more if I need them. If I add more than one car, the speed goes from too fast to stalled, or leaves the car on the track. I've gone from no turnouts in the layout to six, and now I need to figure out how to "bend the coupler" on the tender up to get more clearance when crossing the turnouts. The booklet doesn't say what to use or where to bend. I could use some advice. Maybe then I won't lose the caboose on the inner loop.
> 
> I own a Kill-A-Watt meter that shows draw and average Watts used. Would this be a tool to see what's wrong? It's easy enough to get numbers if they mean anything.
> 
> Sorry to be such a needy person here, but you guys are all I have to draw from. I don't think my back will allow me to drive 25 miles to the nearest LHS yet, and the store is so small I don't think they could even test the engine there. There is another LHS in Delaware, but that's even farther away. I really appreciate the input and help. I was so caught up in building a suspended train board since running the old train in February that I'm just now having to work out the kinks. The layout has changed and grown a lot, but I'm only trying to use the track that's been in place for a month or so. I knew about some of these things, but figured a higher Watt transformer was what I needed. Don, I've had the 16B too long for Buyer Protection even though I've only turned it on two times. It does put out the Voltage. Maybe that what Timboy meant. His big layout was converted to DC and he may not have used the transformers seen in the videos as designed. He had so much to power, several of the 16Bs were probably supplying power to accessories and not the trains. With you guys throwing out things to try and checking on things I should be doing, this old train may tun right again!


kix662003:

With a #15 Rectifier you can use your AC Transformer as the rectifier with turn the current
into DC. You can also purchase a Rectiformer #14 or #16 (These are the ones with the
glowing Vacuum Tube) All the above can be seen/bought on E-Bay. I'm sure there are also many current DC transformers available from the current manufactures. (MTH-Lionel and
etc.) Bottom line: Nothing better then to run on DC. IMHO--Larry


----------



## sjm9911

Kix, good luck! I'm at the end of what I can offer you. I just don't know enough about American flyer stuff. Hopefully the new guy will help with the electrical issues. I do know that transformer needs a bit of cleaning! And for lubrication, I may be going out on a limb here, but most guys on the Lionel side use motor oil. Cheap easy and doesn't gum up. I learned this here from servoguy. He uses it on everything. Just a bit on all the moving parts, then a good wheel cleaning in case any dripped on them. I think the motor oil would apply to flyer stuff too, it's still moving parts right?


----------



## Southern Tier

sjm9911 said:


> I think the motor oil would apply to flyer stuff too, it's still moving parts right?


Yes. Thomas Barker, S Gauge Operating and Repair Guide Third Edition 2012. 1st edition released in 1979. He recommends Light Grease, such as lubriplate, Light Oil such as 3 in 1, and Silicon spray as essential supplies. I've used all 3 successfully.


----------



## sjm9911

Southern tier, on the Lionel side, no 3 in 1 oil, it gets too gummy over time and no grease. The original Lionel stuff turned to wax like stuff gumming up the works. They just use motor oil. Seems to work good, I'm a convert now. Granted I might not be around when the stuff gets gummy, but I don't want to take some of the stuff apart again. Hope that helps. I really didn't think it mattered much but then I went to oil a door one day, after pulling the pins I noticed the sticky pin. I remember using some 3 in 1 oil on that door years ago( funny what stuff jumps into your mind sometimes.).


----------



## Southern Tier

sjm9911 said:


> Southern tier, on the Lionel side, no 3 in 1 oil, it gets too gummy over time and no grease. The original Lionel stuff turned to wax like stuff gumming up the works. They just use motor oil. Seems to work good, I'm a convert now. Granted I might not be around when the stuff gets gummy, but I don't want to take some of the stuff apart again. Hope that helps. I really didn't think it mattered much but then I went to oil a door one day, after pulling the pins I noticed the sticky pin. I remember using some 3 in 1 oil on that door years ago( funny what stuff jumps into your mind sometimes.).


I hear ya, and the motor oil makes sense too. I think the main thing is keeping them cleaned and lubed on a regular basis.

About the "funny stuff" many of us grab, for the most famous spray lubricant around the house when something squeaks or sticks. When in fact it contains propellants and solvents that probably tend to break down and dry up the very lubricants it dispenses. So we keep spraying until we have to buy another can!


----------



## kix662003

Lubriplate is probably available at the industrial supply house or hardware store in town, and Tom Barker certainly has a lot of experience and know-how. I'll look for some of that. I had a neighbor that was VP of an electric motor shop, and before he died he gave me some really good motor oil in a small bottle that has a long tube for the nozzle. I'm sure it's good stuff, and that's what I used last time. I'd have to look at the brand on the tube to see what it is, but it's what the shop used for all their small motor repairs.

When I took the 16B transformer apart to photograph the inside, I found the crimp-on wire terminal on the wire to the handle was loose on the retaining screw. The transformer is like new inside except for normal carbon deposit and the carbon roller is like new, so I put it back together before I lost a part or two. The wire is now tightly attached to the control handle. I checked out the little 1.5B too, and it's new inside. 

I tested the variable Voltage on both transformers. The 16B puts out [email protected] (what it should according to Gilbert's manual), [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] The little 1.5B puts out [email protected] (not normal - should be nothing), [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]@100 and [email protected] (which is a first). Right now, I think the 16B is working properly. 

Later today, I plan to check Voltages at various places of the layout and make a record. I'm going to service the engine and tender again before putting them back on the track. I'd say that finding the loose wire terminal in the 16B was progress!


----------



## sjm9911

Sounds good so far Kix, but wait for the new guy for the transformer issue, I know I cleaned my Lionel zw a few months ago but I don't have that much carbon build up on the coil( I just popped the top). I know you can clean it with alcohol or contact cleaner, and a cotton swab or a scotch Brite, but maybe there's more to it. Just guessing but too much tension on the roller or a defective (too soft) roller or just age? It could be perfectly normal for that transformer, I don't know. It's best for someone who knows more then me to chime in here. Also, just looked over a zw thread in the o scale, servoguy recommended a bit of oil on the rollers and coil. It's the second zw thread by mcshabs in the o scale section. I'm assuming that your transformer is basically the same just smaller. ( I never tried it but I will now).


----------



## Southern Tier

kix662003 said:


> I tested the variable Voltage on both transformers. The 16B puts out [email protected] (what it should according to Gilbert's manual), [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] The little 1.5B puts out [email protected] (not normal - should be nothing), [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]@100 and [email protected] (which is a first). Right now, I think the 16B is working properly.


Nearly the exact same readings I got from my 18B and from all locations on the layout.


----------



## kix662003

I tested the track voltage every 36 inches; first with the big transformer and then with the little one. Absolutely no loss with a good VOM. I kept looking at the track as I was testing it thinking "I have all the ties finished now. Why don't I glue them down?" So I did. What a difference it makes, even on a plain wood board without scenery yet. The inner service loop wasn't done, but I have 42 finished ties in inventory. I just need to get the train running better and then work on the new loop.


----------



## Aflyer

Kix,
Hey great news on finding and fixing the problem with the 16B, it sounds like you have eliminated one of your issues. I was feeling bad about recommending that you get a larger transformer, but I still think it was the right decision.

As for the Loco, I can't remember from previous posts, if you had changed the brushes and/or springs, and cleaned the commutator. This is what I have found can make a big difference in the slow speed operation on some of my loco's. Don't dis your Atlantics, they can run real well, are easy to work on, and pull an amazing number of cars for their size.

I have posted below the web site for the ACSG club I belong to. I am in the Carolinas Division and we frequently do shows with the Tidewater division as well. We will work on anyones A/F equipment at the shows and try to fix or improve operation, at no cost or parts only if needed. If any of the shows listed are close enough for you to get to, I am sure the guys working the show would be willing to look at and test your equipment with you. It is a great advantage to be able to test your gear on another layout.

http://www.trainweb.org/acsg/index.html

If none of the shows are close enough to you, you can check out the web site and do some reading. 

Aflyer


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

I'm glad you have made some progress on this project. Sounds like your procedures for diagnosis are logical, coordinated and precise. I have no doubt that 303 will soon be ripping the ties off that layout in no time. A good cleaning and lube will do wonders. For the record, I use contact cleaner and Q-tips for just about everything to clean the old dirt and gunk. Then I give the gears a good coating of lubriplate -- same stuff Tom recommends. A little dab of machine oil on the armature bearing and oil wick. Then it's off to the races. From the reading here, maybe the machine oil is not the best choice. But as I intend to do routine, regular maintenance on my engines, I can always clean up the remnants of that oil and use something else the next time. For now it works great.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

I was always under the impression that no matter if the control handle is off, there would always be a trickle of voltage at the variable terminal with all AF transformers. Am I wrong on that assumption?


----------



## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> I was always under the impression that no matter if the control handle is off, there would always be a trickle of voltage at the variable terminal with all AF transformers. Am I wrong on that assumption?


Yes and no. The less expensive transformers that came in the set zeroed, while the optional transformers retained a low Voltage to allow the engine to stop, but not cycle through the neutral/reverse/neutral and then forward function. It looks like the transformers that retain Voltage have an on/off switch, too. Keeping 5 or 6 Volts works okay with the deadman's lever, but I never run the train in reverse, and it's just a pain at this stage of the game (trying to solve the speed issue). I'm going to dissect the l.5B and clean it with tuner cleaner and a soft wire brush to see if it won't power down to zero again when turned off.


----------



## kix662003

Well, the little transformers red plastic control handle is brittle and failed. When I took it apart, it broke completely away from the retaining screw. It's a simple design with just a copper contact - no carbon roller. I guess 50+ years of Summer attic heat took its toll. I guess I'll watch for junk boxes at shows and look for 1.5Bs with a good control knob. The 16B seems to be working perfectly with the tightened screw, which should keep me going. The 1.5B still puts out 15 Volts for accessory power.


----------



## Strummer

Getting back to the original question of "Speed", when I first got into Flyer,I was troubled by the high starting characteristics of these trains, as well as the lack of over-all speed control.
My answer was to pick up one of the Model Rectifier "O-27" transistor power packs. This unit actually starts at 0 volts, allows for much smoother starts, and the speed range is vastly improved over the Flyer pack I was using.
Just my 2 cents.

Mark in Oregon


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

kix -- Port Lines, and probably other Hobby vendors, offer replacement handles. Port Lines is not the exact color red as the original -- if you don't care about things like that.
I got one from Port Lines for $3.50 and shipping. I also have a few of those 1-1/2B trannies just sitting around for parts. Only one or two have good handles though and I'm saving those, otherwise I'd offer one to you. But you should be able to find a replacement one at a show somewhere. They do get brittle with age when stored in the attic subjected to drastic temperature changes.


----------



## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> kix -- Port Lines, and probably other Hobby vendors, offer replacement handles. Port Lines is not the exact color red as the original -- if you don't care about things like that.
> I got one from Port Lines for $3.50 and shipping. I also have a few of those 1-1/2B trannies just sitting around for parts. Only one or two have good handles though and I'm saving those, otherwise I'd offer one to you. But you should be able to find a replacement one at a show somewhere. They do get brittle with age when stored in the attic subjected to drastic temperature changes.


Thanks for the info! I'll check with Port Lines. Found a really cool water tank for the Flyer layout today in Berlin. It has a Sore Gums candy sign on it and I really think it's neat. I'll post a photo. My wife discovered a Delaware craft show in the same town as the other LHS. I may look through their "junk" box if she wants to go. I bought a few HO pieces from their table at the last toy/train show. Picked up some Labelle's lube today, and hope to get the 303 serviced tomorrow. Have a great weekend.


----------



## kix662003

Strummer said:


> Getting back to the original question of "Speed", when I first got into Flyer,I was troubled by the high starting characteristics of these trains, as well as the lack of over-all speed control.
> My answer was to pick up one of the Model Rectifier "O-27" transistor power packs. This unit actually starts at 0 volts, allows for much smoother starts, and the speed range is vastly improved over the Flyer pack I was using.
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Mark in Oregon


Thanks, Mark. I hadn't thought about that. I bought an MRC Tech 2 2500 transformer to run my HO train, and I remember there were some MRC AC transformers in the used box. I'll check that out. I got the DC unit for $7. Most used transformers go for $8 to $10 at the LHS, but they all have something that doesn't work right. Mine needs a new reverse switch.


----------



## kix662003

Oh happy day! I cleaned the engine today, lubed it with Labelle 102, cleaned the tender wheels and contacts and took a long spin around the outer loop at 15 mph! It did fine at 20, 30, 40, etc, but see a little sparking from the back tender wheels on the track. Speed problem solved thanks to my friends here. Now I can nail down track and begin basic scenery.


----------



## sjm9911

Yes! One problem solved. Sometimes the more you run them the better they respond. Great news.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

Kix -- I'm pleased to hear the news. The sparking has been mentioned here numerous times and is thought to be minor bits of dirt, gunk, etc. on the wheels and /or track. A good cleaning of each should resolve that.

I also thought of you so I picked up a 1-1/2B tranny at a train show this weekend -- the bright red handle seems perfectly intact, although I did not yet disassemble it. You're welcome to it if you wish. Just let me know and I'll take it apart to ascertain its condition then report back to you.


----------



## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Kix -- I'm pleased to hear the news. The sparking has been mentioned here numerous times and is thought to be minor bits of dirt, gunk, etc. on the wheels and /or track. A good cleaning of each should resolve that.
> 
> I also thought of you so I picked up a 1-1/2B tranny at a train show this weekend -- the bright red handle seems perfectly intact, although I did not yet disassemble it. You're welcome to it if you wish. Just let me know and I'll take it apart to ascertain its condition then report back to you.


Thanks! Let me know what I owe you. No immediate rush. I'm still moving slow but a lot better than last month. Wish I lived in your neck of the woods, where there are a few shows each month! I appreciate your remembering my need.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

I've taken the tranny apart and the handle is complete without any signs of fractures or brittle-like conditions. The only issue I found is slight melt marks on the outside of the handle -- one directly on top of the hub and one about midway down the pointer. If that won't bother you, it should work flawlessly for you. Just PM your name/address and I'll send it off to you, my early Christmas gift to you. Let me know if you need any of the other parts and I'll include them as well.


----------



## kix662003

Thanks1 PM sent


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

Your handle is on its way to you. They say Saturday delivery but I wouldn't hold my breath. Enjoy!!


----------



## kix662003

Thanks again. I'll let you know when it arrives. Inside today while the remnants of Andrea pass. Website has been updated, but haven't taken a photo of my new/old water tower yet.​


----------



## kix662003

kix662003 said:


> Thanks again. I'll let you know when it arrives. Inside today while the remnants of Andrea pass. Website has been updated, but haven't taken a photo of my new/old water tower yet.​


Got the handle in the mail today. Thanks again.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

You are quite welcome -- Happy Railroading!!


----------



## kix662003

Finished wiring the track and accessories today. The electric hoist allowed me to work under the board to keep everything neat. Thanks to a good friend and fellow forum member, my 16B tranny runs the train and my repaired 1.5B powers the switches and whistling billboard, AND the locomotive runs at whatever speeds that I select. Sweet! The "new" handle for the little transformer fixed the problem with Voltage not dropping to zero and the speed range is smooth like it was in 1956. Should the 16B fail, there's a backup already on the board. It's great to have friends that are so willing to help out with questions and problems!


----------



## Aflyer

Kix,
Hi, great news, I am glad to hear everything has come together for you!!. Looking at your photo's things are looking good also!!
Aflyer


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

Seeing that posting is all the thanks anybody needs...well done my friend.


----------



## kix662003

Thanks for the compliments! I'm getting some things done, and using common sense along the way. I found the perfect power strip for the layout at Walmart and installed it. Looks like it was custom-made for a suspended layout. I have two of the six turnouts wired now, and the whistling billboard. The power strip has a separate outlet for an AC adapter, so my LED lights for the billboard work too. The other four turnouts will not be used any time soon, so I can take my time looking for the vintage cable. 

My web page has been updated, but most of the photos are of the "other" layout. It's going along a lot faster and I was anxious to have a way to test the used locomotive and rolling stock. Everything works great, except for one Kadee coupler that's out of whack. Maybe tomorrow will be coupler adjusting day and the first day of Summer. 

It's nice to finally have most of my train "stuff" on the train boards now, and not on the desk, dressers, tables and shop equipment. I can understand Mrs. NBF wanting her dining space back, but I also know what it's like to have everything in boxes and wherever.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

I'm glad to see you are putting that "granite" wall to use afterall. You worked hard on that to simply discard it. Actually, I think it looks pretty good. Everything is really coming together and looking great.


----------



## kix662003

Thanks. Grandchildren are coming for a visit in 3 weeks, so I did some pattern work to construct a tunnel on one rear corner of the Flyer layout today. It looks like it should work. I need to come up with a new backdrop to replace the stone wall too. I have quite a collection of Route 66 magnets, stickers, tags and dodads collecting dust. Since the layout is about Route 66 attractions and not modeled after a particular rail system or place, I may just try using what I have. It may look like a ice skating rink with all the signs and emblems around the wall, but it won't cost anything to see. I'd like to have something to keep everything on the board when the kids are here, and when I'm raising and lowering it, too. If something rolled or fell off the back of the layout, I'd never get there quickly enough to catch it. If I was far enough along to use some glue to keep things in place, it wouldn't be a concern. I'm just starting the scenery work and a lot of it will be scratch built. I'm having fun, and like working on it when I'm feeling up to it. Still need to adjust the coupler on the tender.


----------

