# Smoke in Tender Unit



## Nuttin But Flyer

I'm the first to admit I have no clue how some of the AF stuff works. So I am asking for some advice here. I have this dream of creating my own diner for a layout using an old passenger car shell. I have obtained a 650 New Haven shell for the diner body and I have a die-cast bottom that is slightly damaged that should make a good base for it. My idea is to get an AF smoke-in-tender unit to either set inside the diner or nearby to pump smoke out of a chimney I add to the diner shell. I am under the impression that the s.i.t. units run simply when current is applied and that they do not need to run via motor assist, is this correct? I also thought I saw a tube feeding the smoke to the boiler that eventually makes its way out of the boiler smokestack, is this correct too? If these assumptions are correct, then adding smoking chimney to my diner should be a piece of cake, would it not? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.


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## T-Man

I would look for a caboose smoke unit at MTH or Lionel. One that runs on a fan motor.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I didn't know they had such a thing. Forgive my next question but MTH?? And where would I find either of these?


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## T-Man

FInd a caboose model number, then go back and find a part list. Or go through their catalogs and find one. Ebay may not list the model number.
MTH and LIonel each have a site. Lionel Owns AF and sells modern items.

From a search Lionel does not carry the part. Go to the O scale parts people thread under information.maybe they have one.

You may have to refer to a" 12 volt Seuthe unit"

Maybe this will help.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Actually, the MTH caboose smoke units are not fan driven. However, you can find an Lionel or MTH PS/1 locomotive fan driven smoke unit and adapt that to most anything, they're self-contained.


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## Stillakid

Having 2 SIT units(one has the piston and the other works of a bellows, I totally agree with T-Man & John. It would look strange seeing "Puffs" of smoke as opposed to a steady stream of it.
There's also the cost. Those units usually go for upwards of $45, and unless you see the innards, you could be getting a "bellows" system that is rotted out and needs replacement(more $$!). 
Even if you purchased one with the "piston" set up, remember that they both have motorized units that require springs, brushes, and the constant cleaning of the armature. 
If it were me, I'd look for a more modern electronic unit that will function without a lot of maintenance.

Good Luck With Your Project. Sounds "Cool!"

Jim


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## gunrunnerjohn

If you look around, the fan driven ones are offered at $20-30 at times. I've seen them on eBay.


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## AF296

Do yourself a favor, Stay away from the Lionel fan driven smoke units. There nothing but problems. I have 2 in for repair right now... All electronics.. Can get the fan to turn and can't get the nickle/chrome wire to heat up. May have bad board or capisator. In any event you need wiring diagram and a multi meter and an electronics degree to get somewhere with them.. Stick with SIT. Your better off


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've had no issues with the Lionel units, certainly no more than folks like MTH. There are a handful of components on either of these maker's units, it's basically a 5V regulator circuit for the fan.


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## flyernut

AF296 said:


> Do yourself a favor, Stay away from the Lionel fan driven smoke units. There nothing but problems. I have 2 in for repair right now... All electronics.. Can get the fan to turn and can't get the nickle/chrome wire to heat up. May have bad board or capisator. In any event you need wiring diagram and a multi meter and an electronics degree to get somewhere with them.. Stick with SIT. Your better off


My Lionel big boy doesn't smoke worth a hoot...


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## Stillakid

AF guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but he could just use a regular, "smoke in broiler" unit without the piston drive. If he creates a chamber around the unit that connects to the diners smoke stack, wouldn't the smoke eventually begin to fill the chamber and exit thru the stack? The piston is for synchronizing the smoke puffs to the engines speed.
You could also use an air pump(fish tank-junk shop buy!), to pressurize the chamber and force the smoke out. 
When I re-wire a smoke unit, I let it sit, under power, to ensure that it's working properly. 
What say you?


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## flyernut

Stillakid said:


> AF guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but he could just use a regular, "smoke in broiler" unit without the piston drive. If he creates a chamber around the unit that connects to the diners smoke stack, wouldn't the smoke eventually begin to fill the chamber and exit thru the stack? The piston is for synchronizing the smoke puffs to the engines speed.
> You could also use an air pump(fish tank-junk shop buy!), to pressurize the chamber and force the smoke out.
> When I re-wire a smoke unit, I let it sit, under power, to ensure that it's working properly.
> What say you?


Sounds about right to me.When I check my rebuilt smoke units, I hook up the wires to my transformer and turn on the juice. I lightly blow into the piston area and out she comes. I would think a long tube placed on the stack would eventually allow enough smoke to come out of it for a realistic smoking chimney for a diner.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The caboose smoke units have no fan, but the volume of smoke that comes out is pretty small.

If you use a standard piston smoke unit, I'd suggest you open up the intake hole considerably, that will allow more air flow, and thus more smoke.


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## gunrunnerjohn

flyernut said:


> My Lionel big boy doesn't smoke worth a hoot...


Have you tried the Lionel smoke unit modification? Basically, it's enlarging the fan intake to allow more airflow and removing the sleeve from the smoke resistor and repacking the wick.


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## flyernut

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Have you tried the Lionel smoke unit modification? Basically, it's enlarging the fan intake to allow more airflow and removing the sleeve from the smoke resistor and repacking the wick.


I had it back once, but they said it was adequate.You seem to be the expert on a lot of things here, so just give me your address and I'll drive on down. I can visit my cousin in Freeland while I wait,lol...And I do sincerely mean what I said about your skills. You always seem to amaze me.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I hesitate to say I'm an expert on all things, but I do have some expertise in some areas. 

Lionel has a video out that shows the modifications to their older fan driven smoke units. The two steps were to drill the fan intake to 1/4", and cut off the sleeve from the smoke element and pack the chamber with new wick. Obviously, they used the Lionel stuff, but I use Tiki torch wick, works as well and costs about 1/10 of what Lionel's little hanks of fiberglass cost! 

I did this to a couple of my older Lionel Diesel models, and it made a big difference, that's why I suggest it. The Big Boy does have a fan driven unit, doesn't it?


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## flyernut

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, I hesitate to say I'm an expert on all things, but I do have some expertise in some areas.
> 
> Lionel has a video out that shows the modifications to their older fan driven smoke units. The two steps were to drill the fan intake to 1/4", and cut off the sleeve from the smoke element and pack the chamber with new wick. Obviously, they used the Lionel stuff, but I use Tiki torch wick, works as well and costs about 1/10 of what Lionel's little hanks of fiberglass cost!
> 
> I did this to a couple of my older Lionel Diesel models, and it made a big difference, that's why I suggest it. The Big Boy does have a fan driven unit, doesn't it?


I have the Lionmaster Big boy, and have been somewhat disappointed by it. It's a gorgeous loco, but the front drivers spin slower than the rear, and the smoke production just isn't there. I had it back for both concerns but everything is fine,or so I'm told. I'd love to put a tach on the drivers but I don't have one.And yes it does have a fan-driven unit.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I believe that has the Odyssey speed control, right? If it's the original Odyssey, it was "less than perfect". I believe the Odyssey speed feedback is on the rear motor on that model. You may have to do some "tinkering" to get the front motor more in sync. 

One little trick you could employ would be a pair of back to back diodes on the rear motor to slightly reduce it's drive at a given voltage and match it closer to the front motor's drive speed. If that's too much, you might try Schottky diodes, they have about half the voltage drop. A normal silicon diode has a voltage drop between 0.6–0.7 volts, while a Schottky diode voltage drop is between approximately 0.15–0.45 volts. The benefit of diodes is their drop is pretty constant across a wide current range, resistors don't do the trick here.

I just got the Lionmaster Legacy PARR T-1, it had to go back for a couple issues as well. It's fine now, but I'm not awed by the traction when compared to any of the diesel models. It's smoke output is fine however, it had drive train issues and the chuff switch didn't work most of the time. 

The T-1 has the same dual motor setup with 8 driving wheels, but it can get stuck on fairly small track irregularities, like some switches, but only backing up slowly. The diesel models, OTOH, will practically climb a 1/4" bump in the track without missing a beat! Either type has 8 driving wheels with four traction tires, so I'd expect better performance from the T-1. Since it runs fine forward, I just have to remember to give it a bit more speed backing into switches.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

WOW !! I never expected this much discussion. I just wanted to get a somewhat realistic-looking wisping smoke out of the diner. Certainly not "puffing" like someone else advised too. Nor belching like a coal-fired power plant. I would not have selected "smoke in the boiler" because it uses a piston-driven smoke unit that "puffs". That is why I suggested a smoke in the tender unit initially. But based on your responses and the fact that my first attempt on eBay forced the bidding price to go upwards of $60 on a SIT unit -- without the tender, mind you, I think I'll settle for an aftermarket MTH or other brand for a mere $30-$40. Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have 8600 posts, I have to keep up my pace here! 

A hint on eBay bidding, use a sniping program. Don't bit early, that does run up the price.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Sniping Program?


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Sniping Program?


It's a bidding program that automatically will bid when there's just a few seconds left. I usually put in my best bid at 3 seconds and usually win 99% of the time.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> WOW !! I never expected this much discussion. I just wanted to get a somewhat realistic-looking wisping smoke out of the diner. Certainly not "puffing" like someone else advised too. Nor belching like a coal-fired power plant. I would not have selected "smoke in the boiler" because it uses a piston-driven smoke unit that "puffs". That is why I suggested a smoke in the tender unit initially. But based on your responses and the fact that my first attempt on eBay forced the bidding price to go upwards of $60 on a SIT unit -- without the tender, mind you, I think I'll settle for an aftermarket MTH or other brand for a mere $30-$40. Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions.


Don't give up on the flyer s-i-b units. They're cheap and I honestly believe they will work for your project. Just attach a small tube to the chimney and let her run. The smoke will lazily come up through it, just like a real, small working fire.The smoke has to go somewhere, and usually that means up.


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## santafe158

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've had no issues with the Lionel units, certainly no more than folks like MTH. There are a handful of components on either of these maker's units, it's basically a 5V regulator circuit for the fan.


I haven't had issues with the Lionel fan units either. I have three locomotives equipped with them and they all work great.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Sniping Program?


Gixen is the one I use, works great.


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