# DCC and turnouts



## paulrail

I am a beginner who is trying to build my first DCC layout.

I have a simple oval of Atlas code 83 HO track and an NCE Power Cab which works fine. My first problem occurred when I added an Atlas code 83 #6 remote turnout (I also tried a #4 because it had a smaller frog). 

My loco is a Broadway Limited SW-1500. It will not go through the plastic frog without sputtering or stalling at slow speeds. Since my plan is to have this engine stationed most of the time in a yard classifying trains, moving slowly through many turnouts, I need to learn how to fix this.

I am not married to the small amount of track I've purchased so far so I am open to all suggestions including going with another manufacture of turnouts.

Thanks


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## fcwilt

Atlas turnouts are not very good.

You might take a look at Peco Code 83 Streamline products.

I used them on my layout and they have proven to be very good.

If you don't mind dealing with the wiring for a powered frog you can use the ElectroFrog version which has metal frog and thus very little in the way of dead spots.

Frederick


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## paulrail

fcwilt said:


> Atlas turnouts are not very good.
> 
> You might take a look at Peco Code 83 Streamline products.
> 
> I used them on my layout and they have proven to be very good.
> 
> If you don't mind dealing with the wiring for a powered frog you can use the ElectroFrog version which has metal frog and thus very little in the way of dead spots.
> 
> Frederick



Thanks for the info, Frederick. I don't know what is involved in wiring a powered frog but I'll find out! I gotta have the switcher crawling smoothly in the yard 

Thanks again!


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## ncrc5315

Second the Peco, I have both the Electrofrog, as well as the Insufrog, and my track mobile's, go through with no problems. I also have some Fast Tracks that I built, and these work just as well.


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## Cycleops

+3 for the Peco turnouts. You don't need the electrofrog, a Insulfrog will work fine. The only thing you need to remember is the Insulfrog is 'power routed' which means power is transferred just to the direction it is set. If you want to use the yard when the supplying turnout is set to the main line you need to have additional feed, it will also mean the lights will stay on.


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## tgoulart

paulrail said:


> I am a beginner who is trying to build my first DCC layout.
> 
> I have a simple oval of Atlas code 83 HO track and an NCE Power Cab which works fine. My first problem occurred when I added an Atlas code 83 #6 remote turnout (I also tried a #4 because it had a smaller frog).
> 
> My loco is a Broadway Limited SW-1500. It will not go through the plastic frog without sputtering or stalling at slow speeds. Since my plan is to have this engine stationed most of the time in a yard classifying trains, moving slowly through many turnouts, I need to learn how to fix this.
> 
> I am not married to the small amount of track I've purchased so far so I am open to all suggestions including going with another manufacture of turnouts.
> 
> Thanks


I just recently got back into the hobby after a 15 year hiatus and I am working on a 4x8 layout with Atlas track. In spite of the recommendations here I did go with Atlas turnout as well. As I expand I will also use Peco turnouts.

I have found several Atlas turnouts to be quite finicky and decided to power all of the frogs (I have 9 turnouts). I am using Tam Valley Frog Juicers and they cleared up most of the issues with stalling and dropped sound. 2 of the turnouts required some filing as I believe the wheels on the front truck was lifting up a bit losing contact. I filed between the guard rails and stock rails. Now the flange won't lift the wheels off the track.


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## paulrail

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. Looks like I'm off to replace that Atlas turnout with a Peco!

I'll let you know how it works.


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## DonR

While I most certainly agree that Peco Insulfrog
turnouts are leagues better than Atlas, I just
wonder if your Loco has lost all wheel power
pickup.

You can check that. Use your multimeter set
to ohms. Place one probe on the right front
wheel. Touch each wheel of both trucks on
that side. You should get a reading.

Then Put the probe on the left front wheel
and repeat.

If you don't get a reading on any one wheel
check the wipers and the wire from the truck
to the decoder. 

Don


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## paulrail

Thanks, Don. I will check that out to be sure I don't have a problem there in addition to going with Peco turnouts (or anything that works well).


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## paulrail

HI, guys. I have a question for all of you who suggested Peco over Atlas. While I'm sure you're right about the overall quality, can anyone explain why locos run over these turnouts better than Atlas?

I am asking because my Atlas turnout has inexplicably worked so much better today but still having more stuttering and stalling than I want (I don't want any). I only have one set of feeders. It's a very small layout at present but would another set of feeders help... or do I just need a different turnout, and if so, why?

Thanks guys


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## traction fan

*Atlas vs Peco*



paulrail said:


> HI, guys. I have a question for all of you who suggested Peco over Atlas. While I'm sure you're right about the overall quality, can anyone explain why locos run over these turnouts better than Atlas?
> 
> I am asking because my Atlas turnout has inexplicably worked so much better today but still having more stuttering and stalling than I want (I don't want any). I only have one set of feeders. It's a very small layout at present but would another set of feeders help... or do I just need a different turnout, and if so, why?
> 
> Thanks guys


 paulrail;

The Peco turnouts have several advantages.

1) A spring that holds the points against the stock rail.

2) A notch in each stock rail that allows the point rail to fit into the stock rail. The combination of items #1 & 2 practically 
eliminates "picking the points", a common derailment issue where some wheels take the straight route and other wheels try to take the diverging route.

3) Fairly forgiving dimensions for the guard rails. A strictly accurate turnout works well with accurately gauged wheels, ONLY! Any wheel set that is out of gauge will likely derail. 
Peco's system includes some slack. They will accept slightly out of gauge wheels and not derail them.

4) Rail joiners instead of rivets as point hinges. The rail joiners help keep the point rails lined up, unlike the open air gap between Atlas's moving points and their adjacent rails.

5) unlike the Atlas "Snap Track", turnout; Pecos don't attempt to include the geometry of a tight 18" radius curve in their design. Pecos are laid out closer to full size turnouts. They have, essentially, Two straight routes set at an angle. They don't substitute directly for a "Snap Track" turnout because they don' have a curved route. This means Peco is not trying to force wheels into an un-eased, tight curve, across an angled, open, gap in the rails. 

6) Everything is built strong in a Peco turnout. Good materials assembled properly.


This may sound like I'm condemning Atlas and exalting Peco. Well, I started with Atlas, brass rail, "Snap Track", just like nearly every model railroader. Then I switched to N scale, and tried Peco. They worked better; and I liked them. Later, I switched to code 55 rail. Back then, there were no code 55,
N scale turnouts available commercially. I started scratch building my own turnouts; and have been ever since. For this reason, I have no axe to grind with Atlas, and I don't get any kickback from Peco. I haven't used either brand for years.
Most of the problems with Atlas can be remedied, and many folks use, and like them. In my opinion, and that of many others; Peco is just more reliable. Trains seldom derail on Peco turnouts.

Regards;
Traction Fan


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## paulrail

Awesome info, Traction Fan. I love learning more and more about everything I can.

However, my problem is one of a switcher stalling or sputtering over the insufrogs of an Atlas turnout. I am being told that Peco will solve that problem and I'm not arguing... I would just like to understand why that is. 

You made some excellent points, but they explain more about why rolling stock doesn't derail and don't seem to explain why locos run more reliably over them.

I will probably just buy a Peco and see what happens because I see on youtube (and other places) that experienced modelers use them...but I would like to know why

Thanks, everybody


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## fcwilt

paulrail said:


> but I would like to know why


Buy two Peco Code 83 Streamline #5 turnouts.

One ElectroFrog.

One InsulFrog.

Once you have them in hand it will be easier to point out why they work better when you can compare them side by side with an Atlas.

You can also test your locos on the InsulFrog turnout. If it works without issue then you may want to use them as you don't have to bother with powering the frog.

Just FYI, powering the frog on an ElectroFrog turnout is NOT hard just a little more work

Frederick


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## paulrail

Thanks, Frederick. I have a simple oval of track at this point and am just trying to add a dead end spur. Even my Atlas Insufrog is working pretty well (but not as well as I would like)

I think I will buy a Peco Insufrog first and see how it works. If I can't see the reason for the improvement maybe I'll ask you again when I have the Peco and Atlas to compare

Thanks (wish me luck)
Paul


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## fcwilt

paulrail said:


> Even my Atlas Insufrog is working pretty well (but not as well as I would like)


Just FYI ElectroFrog and InsulFrog are Peco terms.

While the Atlas is (as far as I know) an insulated frog it is not, strictly speaking, an InsulFrog.


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## cid

Hi Paul, if the Atlas frog is a little high, it can lift the wheels off the track. They can be filed down to be flush with the rails if necessary. Good luck!


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## paulrail

Interesting, Cid. I never considered that.

For some reason my loco went through several times at slow and fast speeds but after a while the problems of stalling and sputtering started again. Could this still be frog too high. My frog is plastic...can I still file it down if necessary?

Thanks for the input.


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## cid

Sure, Paul, I'm not saying that has to be your problem, but I've had to file down a couple of Atlas Customline metal frogs to prevent short locos from stalling like that. You can lay a straightedge or small rule across the frog and rails to check if the frog is high.


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## DonR

If your switcher has only 4 wheel power pickup
you could have problems on any turnout with
plastic frogs. Any loco with 8 (or more) wheel
pickup should have no difficulty at all with them.

If your loco has 8 or more power pickup wheels
and is pausing or stalling on a plastic frog you
may want to check that the wipers and wires
to the motor are working.

If your switcher is 4 wheel pickup the Peco
Electrofrog would solve the problem.

An important point; Peco turnouts use a
different geometry and dimensions than
Atlas and are not a direct replacement. You
may have to realign your track to accomodate
the Pecos.

Don


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## paulrail

Thanks, Don. I will get to the bottom this eventually!


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## mesenteria

offer one possible answer as to why the Pecos seem to be universally preferred once a person has decided to switch to Pecos, and I saw this just today on another popular forum, the Atlas dead frog length is quite a bit longer than those on the Pecos.

I use Peco IS Code 83 #6 turnouts and have for ten years now. They are worth every penny. The only ones that I would say are better are my own hand-laid #8 turnouts with insulated frogs. And not by much.


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## paulrail

mesenteria said:


> offer one possible answer as to why the Pecos seem to be universally preferred once a person has decided to switch to Pecos, and I saw this just today on another popular forum, the Atlas dead frog length is quite a bit longer than those on the Pecos.
> 
> I use Peco IS Code 83 #6 turnouts and have for ten years now. They are worth every penny. The only ones that I would say are better are my own hand-laid #8 turnouts with insulated frogs. And not by much.


Thanks. A smaller dead area sounds like it will help!

Two questions though:

What is "IS"?
Any thoughts on Insulfrog vs Electrofrof?

Thanks


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## Cycleops

paulrail said:


> What is "IS"?
> Any thoughts on Insulfrog vs Electrofrof?


I think we can safely say it doesn't stand for Islamic State! Must be erroneous as all Peco points have SL part numbers.

See my earlier post about insul v electrofrogs.

You can download templates from Peco's website to place on your layout.


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## fcwilt

paulrail said:


> Thanks. A smaller dead area sounds like it will help!
> 
> Any thoughts on Insulfrog vs Electrofrof?
> 
> Thanks


See attached scans of a ElectrogFrog (EF) turnout and a InsulFrog (IF) turnout.

The EF is on the left.

You can see that the EF frog is all metal whereas the IF frog has some plastic sections.

The IF has the advantage is you can use it "as is" with no special considerations.

The EF has the advantage of an all-metal frog BUT, at the very least, you have to use insulated rail-joiners on the frog rails because the rails of the unselected route are shorted together. 

You also have the option to make some minor wiring changes to the turnout to allow powering the closure rails and frog without relying on the points making good contact to the stock rails BUT you have to then provide some device to provide the correct power to the frog.

You can either use the extra contacts on a device like the Tortoise switch motor OR a device like the Tam Valley Frog Juicer.


On my layout I used EF turnouts despite the need for the extra wiring.

Frederick


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## traction fan

*Loosing power*



paulrail said:


> Awesome info, Traction Fan. I love learning more and more about everything I can.
> 
> However, my problem is one of a switcher stalling or sputtering over the insufrogs of an Atlas turnout. I am being told that Peco will solve that problem and I'm not arguing... I would just like to understand why that is.
> 
> You made some excellent points, but they explain more about why rolling stock doesn't derail and don't seem to explain why locos run more reliably over them.
> 
> I will probably just buy a Peco and see what happens because I see on youtube (and other places) that experienced modelers use them...but I would like to know why
> 
> Thanks, everybody


 paulrail;

Your question asked for quality differences between Peco and Atlas. I assumed this included derailment issue differences. To answer your electrical question, Peco's spring system, and their rail joiner pivots, carry power more reliably to the point rails.
Those Atlas rivets are an electrical problem, as well as mechanical. Sometimes the rivets don't carry power to the point rails well/at all. 
Our locos run by picking up power from the rails, through their wheels, and whatever contacts the manufacturer includes in his design. There is an old adage, in this hobby, that says,"you can't have too much electrical pickup." I strongly agree with this notion. All our locos should have power pickup on all wheels. Some don't. This may be because they were designed that way(usually older, cheap locos); or because some part of the wheel-contact-motor system has stopped working. This is how a loco designed with 8 wheel pickup becomes a loco with 4 wheel pick up. As Don wisely suggests, check the loco for all wheel pickup first. 
When the pickup is all in one truck, at one end of the loco, it may well stall on a plastic frog. Why? Because the plastic can't supply power to the wheels. A loco with all wheel pickup will not stall on a plastic frog, because it's still picking up power from it's truck that is not on the plastic frog, but on electrically live, metal rails, further back. This brings up another thing you should look at on your balky loco. Some model diesels, and many model steamers, pickup power from one rail only at one end of the loco, and from the other rail only at the opposite end. This means that if you can cut power to the wheels at either end, the loco will stall. You can sometimes see this by looking at the wheels. If each truck has metal wheels on only one side; and plastic wheels on the other side; It is of the type just described. If all wheels are metal, that usually means they all pickup power. Usually, not always! You can test your loco's pickup by running it along the track, and running one truck up on a piece of paper, laid across the rails. Then repeat the test with the other truck. If it runs with either one of the trucks touching the rails, great! That means it has true, all wheel pickup.
Now what about metal(AND powered) turnout frogs Vs. Plastic (and some metal#) Non-powered frogs. I strongly prefer powered metal frogs. Every turnout I've made has a powered frog. The frog has a wire soldered to it and connected to the "common" terminal of a micro-switch. The other two micro-switch terminals are connected to the "stock"(non-moving) rails. When the turnout is set for the main line, the switch connects the frog to the main line stock rail. When the turnout is set for the siding, the frog is connected to the siding's stock rail. This system ensures that every wheel, of any loco, is always sitting on a live metal rail. Result? NO STALLS. 
A plastic frog is always electrically dead. If, for any reason, both trucks of a loco are not picking up power; from BOTH rails, the loco may stall.

Peco calls their metal frog turnouts, "Electrofrog"(as in Electrically live*.) They call the plastic frog turnouts, "insulfrog"(as in insulated). I would strongly recommend "electrofrog turnouts.

# Just because a frog is metal, that doesn't mean the frog is powered. Some Atlas "custom line" turnouts have metal frogs that are not powered.

Hope that answers your questions;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

*If you buy a Peco electrofrog turnout, check the manufacturer's instructions. You may have to slightly modify the turnout to get the benefit of a powered frog. 

My Turnouts;

Notice the blue wire at the upper right of the photo. It is connected to the frog. When the turnout is installed on the layout; this wire will connect to the "common" terminal of a micro-switch that is operated when the turnout points move. These turnouts also have the "DCC friendly" set up. The frog is isolated from the rest of the turnout. Each point rail is jumpered to the adjacent stock rail. The bottom view shows some of the jumpers.


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## paulrail

Thank you, Traction Fan for taking the time to give me so much detailed information. It
definitely gets to the bedrock of my question!

Almost ironically, now that I have a better understanding of why a manufacturer like Peco is higher quality than Atlas, I got my Atlas turnouts working well...figures.

I will use the Atlas turnouts I have for now but as construction of my layout continues I will likely replace them with Peco...So many of you seem satisfied with them. You will know when this happens because I will start to post questions about Tortoise Switch Machines


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## fcwilt

paulrail said:


> I will use the Atlas turnouts I have for now but as construction of my layout continues I will likely replace them with Peco...So many of you seem satisfied with them. You will know when this happens because I will start to post questions about Tortoise Switch Machines


Note too that Peco, IMO, look much better than Atlas.


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## paulrail

Yes, I noticed that. I used Atlas Code 100 when I was a kid and the code 83 Atlas look better than they did back then (smaller switch machine). 

With their easy to wire remote controls I thought I'd see if I could get away with them as I re-enter the hobby now. Again, at present, they are working fine but I am considering replacing them now rather than later.

No track laying this weekend...hoping to get to Home Depot and continue the bench work. Thanks again to everybody for all the help!


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## traction fan

*Switch Machines*



paulrail said:


> Thank you, Traction Fan for taking the time to give me so much detailed information. It
> definitely gets to the bedrock of my question!
> 
> Almost ironically, now that I have a better understanding of why a manufacturer like Peco is higher quality than Atlas, I got my Atlas turnouts working well...figures.
> 
> I will use the Atlas turnouts I have for now but as construction of my layout continues I will likely replace them with Peco...So many of you seem satisfied with them. You will know when this happens because I will start to post questions about Tortoise Switch Machines


paulrail;

Though I have not used the tortoise switch machine, many forum members do use them and they have a great reputation. The only negative thing I've ever heard about them is their high cost.
Peco makes their own switch machine, designed to mount under the table, like Tortoise, but, unlike tortoise, they are not slow motion motors; but snap action type. I think Peco offers them with optional electric contacts. If you decide to use powered frogs, as I do, you will need the contacts.
I don't know the price relationship between the two brands. DonR can probably help with that. He uses Peco turnouts and, I think,Peco machines with them. Don uses a capacitive discharge system(sound's more complicated than it actually is) to operate his Peco turnouts and has had years of successful operation. When you get to that point, Don should be able to help you with Peco machine info. Another member, CT Valley, is one of the many who use tortoise machines. He can help with those. These two nice guys are long term model railroaders, and forum members. They have helped lots of newbies, with all sorts of advice. 

Good luck with your railroad;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## paulrail

Thanks, traction fan. Now I'm a fan of traction...fan :laugh:

I was not aware of Peco's switch machine's. I will look into that option.

Thanks for the help!


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## Chip

ive been running on atlas turnouts and y's cause i needed many (30+) and they were the least expensive. only hiccup was\is the plastic guard rails stick up above the rails on some of the turnouts and i have to sand/grind em down to get smooth running. other than that i got no worries running 9 or more DCC locos at once besides crashing, power has never been an issue with this layout. one feed on 600 feet of track (yes it still works) LOL!


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## paulrail

Chip said:


> ive been running on atlas turnouts and y's cause i needed many (30+) and they were the least expensive. only hiccup was\is the plastic guard rails stick up above the rails on some of the turnouts and i have to sand/grind em down to get smooth running. other than that i got no worries running 9 or more DCC locos at once besides crashing, power has never been an issue with this layout. one feed on 600 feet of track (yes it still works) LOL!


Thanks for the info., Chip. The owner of the train store I go to says Atlas should be fine also. I just am afraid a few years down the road I will have to or want to replace them. They are affordable, look good enough for me and are easy to wire for remote control.

Can you tell me how old your Atlas turnouts are and would you say you do a lot of operations?

Thanks!


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## fcwilt

paulrail said:


> Thanks for the info., Chip. The owner of the train store I go to says Atlas should be fine also. I just am afraid a few years down the road I will have to or want to replace them. They are affordable, look good enough for me and are easy to wire for remote control.


Interesting. 

You ask for advice as a beginner.

Peco is the clear favorite of the experienced modelers.

And then you decide to ignore that advice.

Go figure.


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## paulrail

fcwilt said:


> Interesting.
> 
> You ask for advice as a beginner.
> 
> Peco is the clear favorite of the experienced modelers.
> 
> And then you decide to ignore that advice.
> 
> Go figure.


After only a couple of weeks I have my first bad experience on the
forum. Can anyone show me where in my previous post (or any other) I ignored any advice?

fcwilt, please read and understand posts before you respond to them.


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## paulrail

To no one in particular,

This is why I don't even look at many topics in Union Station!

If I took the time to point out the errors in some people's reasoning I would never get my layout done


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## fcwilt

paulrail said:


> fcwilt, please read and understand posts before you respond to them.


Go back and re-read my post where I quoted you.

I was only going by your post.

And I didn't mean to upset you.

Didn't you see the "smiley"?

Frederick


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## paulrail

fcwilt said:


> Go back and re-read my post where I quoted you.
> 
> I was only going by your post.
> 
> And I didn't mean to upset you.
> 
> Didn't you see the "smiley"?
> 
> Frederick


I do not need to re-read your post. That is the point. I made sure I understood it before I replied.

You might want to familiarize yourself with Poe's Law. 

When you asserted I ignored others' advice you did so sincerely and mistakenly (smileys or not). Otherwise I would have to believe that whole post was a joke because of the smiley at the end of it. I'm sure it wasn't. You erroneously jumped to the conclusion that I decided to go with Atlas turnouts and probably were offended that I didn't go with the far more popular brand by those who replied to my question.

You don't have to admit it to me but please admit it to yourself and be more thoughtful in the future.


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## CTValleyRR

paulrail said:


> Thanks for the info., Chip. The owner of the train store I go to says Atlas should be fine also. I just am afraid a few years down the road I will have to or want to replace them. They are affordable, look good enough for me and are easy to wire for remote control.
> 
> Can you tell me how old your Atlas turnouts are and would you say you do a lot of operations?
> 
> Thanks!


Does your local train store owner also carry Peco? My experience always says to be wary of advice from anyone who stands to make money from you following it.

I have only had two or three fail in 12 years of using them, but that's enough to make me decide not to use them any more (went with Walthers Shinohara myself). 

My youngest son and I are in the process of rebuilding his layout now. He's using Atlas TruTrack, primarily because he doesn't trust himself to lay roadbed and flex track well (although he has helped me and done a bang-up job) and for cost reasons. Hopefully, they will last until he leaves for college in 5 years or so.


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## paulrail

CTValleyRR said:


> Does your local train store owner also carry Peco? My experience always says to be wary of advice from anyone who stands to make money from you following it.
> 
> I have only had two or three fail in 12 years of using them, but that's enough to make me decide not to use them any more (went with Walthers Shinohara myself).
> 
> My youngest son and I are in the process of rebuilding his layout now. He's using Atlas TruTrack, primarily because he doesn't trust himself to lay roadbed and flex track well (although he has helped me and done a bang-up job) and for cost reasons. Hopefully, they will last until he leaves for college in 5 years or so.


Oh yes. He sells a few brands of track that I'm aware of, including Peco. 

I'm convinced that Peco is of higher quality, I was just entertaining the idea of getting away with Atlas because of their lower price and easy wiring of remote controls.

Thanks for the input.


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## traction fan

*Peco switch machines*



paulrail said:


> Thanks, traction fan. Now I'm a fan of traction...fan :laugh:
> 
> I was not aware of Peco's switch machine's. I will look into that option.
> 
> Thanks for the help!


 paulrail;

Thanks for being my fan. You may be the only one!
Peco's switch machines are designed to snap into the bottom of Peco turnouts. 
They do a good job of operating Pecos, but would need a lot of modification (added linkage) to operate another brand. Do your present Atlas turnouts have built in machines? In other words are they what Atlas calls "remote" vs. "manual" turnouts. If so you probably don't need to change machines at all; as long as the Atlas turnouts are working well. I would recommend getting a capacitive discharge system to run them. DonR can help you there. He made his own C.D.System, for very little money, and it has worked well for a long time. Such systems prevent coil burnout, which has been known to "let the smoke out of many an Atlas , and other brands turnout.

regards;

Traction Fan


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## paulrail

Thanks, tractionfan. So I might just be able to have the quality of Peco and the easy switch machines too...I'm hopin'. I will look into those Peco switch machines!

I must admit I don't know what a C.D. system is (unless I know it by another name) Could you (or anyone else) be kind enough to explain a little about them.

Thanks


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## DonR

Peco makes twin coil switch machines that can be
mounted under the table and thus are capable of
powering Atlas or other make turnouts.

A CDU, capacitor discharge unit, is a small
electronic device that provides a short burst
of DC when you push a turnout control button.
It's purpose is to protect the very sensitive
twin coils from burnout due to an
accidentally long button push. They are
available commercially and you need only
one no matter how many turnouts on your
layout. Or you can build your own with a
few small parts from Radio Shack.

Don


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## paulrail

Thanks, Don. Good to know. I am aware of that problem but have not heard of that device.

Does anyone have thoughts on Peco under the table switch machines vis-à-vis their side mounted ones?


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## Lemonhawk

You should consider Tortise, Switchcraft, servo motor and the proto87 moleII rather than messing around with a CD system as these stall motor machines can have the switch indicate the turnout position and its easy to put in LED indicators by using bipolar LED's in series with the stall motor.


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## paulrail

Thanks for the input.

THIS HOBBY IS COMPLICATED!


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## tgoulart

Other options include the single servos as well as the SwitchWright machine both offered by Tam Valley.


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## DonR

I have 20 or so Peco PL10 twin coil under the
table turnout motors. Very dependable.

If you use these or any other twin coil motors
you may want to consider the Stapleton 751-D
switch. It has a built in CDU and makes possible
controlling the points and position indicator LEDs
for panel or track side.

Don


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## deedub35

I second the Stapleton 751D circuit. I have 13 that I use and built into a custom control panel.









Check the buy and sell section - Electrotech has 20 for sale and he is practically giving them away.


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## CTValleyRR

paulrail said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> THIS HOBBY IS COMPLICATED!


Only as complicated as the individual modeler choses to make it....


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## CTValleyRR

tgoulart said:


> Other options include the single servos as well as the SwitchWright machine both offered by Tam Valley.


+1 for those. Definitely worth a look. My last 3 layouts have all used them. Quality devices, easy to use and install, superb support -- the owner will send you a personal e-mail and explain how to solve your problems.


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## paulrail

Thanks, everybody! I have some research to do apparently. As for now I still have
just the two Atlas turnouts but will likely replace them. I love the idea of the momentary
double throw toggle switches on the control panel.

The next couple of weekends I will be finishing the bench work (hopefully) and then can
focus more on track work!

Thanks again, guys for all the help.


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## traction fan

*Atlas turnouts*

Paulrail;

Are the two Atlas turnouts you now have HO-scale, or N-scale?
If they are the HO "Snap Switch type, with an 18" radius curve in them, then I agree that you should be looking at replacing them. I have been writing some things that I hope to have accepted by Model Railroader, or another hobby magazine. One of these potential articles, deals with improving Atlas turnouts. The one possible problem(depending on what locos/cars you want to run) that can't be fixed is the 18" radius tight curve. The N-scale Atlas "Snap Switch" turnout contains a 19" radius curve. While that would still be very tight for HO, it's quite a broad, easy curve in N-scale. (HO equivalent 38" radius)
Just about all the other weaknesses of Atlas turnouts are fixable. If modified correctly, they can become quite reliable. 
Another low cost option is making your own turnouts. (another pending article) The money cost is very low, about $5 per turnout' if made in quantities of 10 or more, but the time required is considerable. 

So, add this info to your research. Let me know if you have any questions;

Traction Fan


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## paulrail

Thanks, traction fan. Unfortunately I've suffered some setbacks 
and haven't even finished bench work yet. I'm probably a at least 
a couple of weekends work away from track work. 

I'm interested to know about improving Atlas turnouts and, while 
it sounds intimidating, making my own. 

Also, good luck getting your stuff published...and let us know!


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## Lemonhawk

Making your own is a great way to go. If your good a soldering then that makes it even easier. If not then take a look at the way proto87 makes turnouts
http://www.proto87.com/Superfine_turnout_construction_help.html This method only uses glue and no soldering.


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## tgoulart

Lemonhawk said:


> Making your own is a great way to go. If your good a soldering then that makes it even easier. If not then take a look at the way proto87 makes turnouts
> http://www.proto87.com/Superfine_turnout_construction_help.html This method only uses glue and no soldering.


Lemonhawk - Have you used these? They look pretty tremendous.


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## Lemonhawk

I've built about 10 turnouts using CV ties and a sort of modified Joe Fugate method. Then I build 2 using the CV points (build my own frogs) and that was OK but depends way to much on glue holding the points. I just finished my last turnout using the Proto87 points and It is by far the most secure and easiest! I still like the idea of using a few PC ties to hold the geometry of the turnout, but I think I'll try the proto 87 frog units also. I really like using CV ties and gluing the rail (I use Pilobond in a dental irrigator as the despensor). Using proto 87 points eliminated grinding the flange on the base rail. Also with the Fugate method you do need to use some high silver content when soldering the points to the throw bar as it under a lot of stress, something proto87 totally eliminates. First picture is a curved turnout that uses soldered points and the second photo is the proto 87 part where the points hinge. Third photo is one of the 2 throw bar connections (only thing that's glued on the points assembly!) I'll have to find the picture of the proto 87 points and get close ups of all three techniques.


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## paulrail

Thanks, everyone for all your helpful advice. I'm leaning toward
changing to Peco using PL-10 switch machines after giving Atlas every chance because of cost and simplicity. 

Someone from Atlas told me by phone I should power the frogs...
using another Atlas product. I see online that Peco turnouts with electro frogs require some modifications that I don't want to get 
into if I don't have to. 

Would insul frog suit my needs?

Thanks
Paul


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## Cycleops

The Insulfrog would be fine. You would only need the electrofrog if using short wheelbase four wheel locos.


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## DonR

Agreed, Peco Insulfrog, you won't have turnout caused
derails. I have 20 or so on my DCC layout.

They have slightly different measurements and
geometry so you will like have to modify any
existing track.

Also, the Insulfrogs are power routing. That means
that any stub tracks will lose power when the
points are set for straight. If you want continuous
power attach a drop to the 2 frog rails.

Don


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## ncrc5315

I run my BLI Trackmobiles through my PECO insulfrogs, with no problems. If they will go through, I can't imagine anything that won't.


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