# Natural gas powered trains



## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Why not? 

http://www.anga.us/blog/2013/5/16/all-aboard-freight-rail-giant-testing-natural-gas-powered-locomotives

crud,...I put this in the wrong forum.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Robes said:


> Why not?
> 
> http://www.anga.us/blog/2013/5/16/all-aboard-freight-rail-giant-testing-natural-gas-powered-locomotives
> 
> crud,...I put this in the wrong forum.


Model trains in the news.......I thought it was going to have something to do with harnessing "natural gas" from animals or the byproduct produced from them. :laugh:

Cool, one of those babies crash there will be a big boom. 
Maybe they should install ejection seats?


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

Robes said:


> Why not?
> 
> http://www.anga.us/blog/2013/5/16/all-aboard-freight-rail-giant-testing-natural-gas-powered-locomotives
> 
> with all the gas development here in n.e. pa. this would be great benefit:thumbsup:


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Doesn't the train need to carry a much larger volume of gas than it does diesel to get from point A to point B? I'm thinking that any gain from using lng over diesel would be offset by the weight of hauling the amount of lng needed to keep the train running.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

cole226 said:


> Robes said:
> 
> 
> > Why not?
> ...


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

norgale said:


> Doesn't the train need to carry a much larger volume of gas than it does diesel to get from point A to point B? I'm thinking that any gain from using lng over diesel would be offset by the weight of hauling the amount of lng needed to keep the train running.


Go figure...

1 Gallon of LNG weighs 3.84 Lbs and has 89,000 BTU's

1 Gallon of Diesel weighs 7.076 Lbs and has 136,533 BTU's

LNG weighs 54% the weight of Diesel

LNG has 65% of the BTU's of diesel

LNG has 23,200 BTU's per pound

Diesel has 19,300 BTU's per pound

Te fuel tank would need to be 35% larger and much thicker (Pressure vessel)
to contain the LNG.

The question is what is the difference in hydrocarbons emissions of the two fuels.

K


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I would guess that the natural gas would be lower in emissions, at least that's the claim for oil fired vs gas fired furnaces and power plants.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)




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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

All the locomotive would need is a tender that is a tanker to supply the gas.

Is that what that picture is Jack? The tanker behind it is to fuel the locomotive?


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Yes but I can't find the full article that went into detail. Thought I had saved it.


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

Try this one...

http://www.energyconversions.com/

K


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## packnrat (Feb 26, 2014)

do to the extreme hazard of any pressurized gas the trade off is not good, this is why personal cars are restricted to small tanks (10 gallon), only reason buses have the lpg is case of a safety waver (can not sue a bus line cause of the explosion or any gas leaks). and tax moneys given to them from the feds.

diesel is the best motor fuel on the planet....till you get to temps below freezing then gasoline is supreme. only cause diesel gels up.
heii even jet aircraft fuel and hyd fluids must be kept warm. gasoline will still vaporize at -60 F.
diesel has a low vox level and does not burn as fast as gasoline, nor does it spread like a gas fuel would. ever hear of a air fuel bomb?
fuel tanker for a loco would be what 5-10,K gallons? would need to be kept warm in temps below 40F. (read vapor lock) and a leak could take out a small city.

this is one of the reasons in a winter war russa wins. even oils and grease gel up and will not lube bearings.

i am not a researcher, just read a lot about different fuels and oils.


.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

packnrat said:


> this is one of the reasons in a winter war russa wins. even oils and grease gel up and will not lube bearings


Would the Russians not suffer the same problems with their equipment......?

Actually, the Russians would win simply because they are more used to sub-zero temperatures.....plus there's just too many of them!


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Old_Hobo, I Googled "Population of Russia", and got 143.5 million in 2012. That's less than half the population of the USA.

packnrat, the flash point of gasoline is generally accepted to be -45ºF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-fuels-d_937.html

As for LNG for locomotives, under engine technology as I understand it, a spark plug would be required for ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Not sure how this would be accomplished on an existing diesel engine. Or are they talking replacing the nation's entire locomotive fleet?


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## Locomotive (Jan 2, 2014)

As for LNG for locomotives, under engine technology as I understand it, a spark plug would be required for ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Not sure how this would be accomplished on an existing diesel engine. Or are they talking replacing the nation's entire locomotive fleet?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I know the CN sd40s converted to burn LNG still used 10% diesel to ignite the fuel not needing spark ignition


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## packnrat (Feb 26, 2014)

fire21 ok i stand corrected as to the temp.

spark plug? where did i say that? for a vaperised gas leak to ignite, any spark will do. 
(pending the air to fuel mix). compression will also do the job.
smaller diesel motors use a glow plug. bigger ones do not need them.
but there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school. sounded like the block was being broken out from the inside.
as for burning lng in a diesel motor, one could adjust the timing and injectors...maybe????

i have not looked into multi fueled motors.

as for russa. they have always relied on using mass amounts of people to win a war.
but like the germans they did not allow for the very low temp and there oil could not work down that low in temp. if you turned off a motor it would never restart.
the russans were already set up for very cold temps.
look at our troops they came up from africa and italy. they had the wrong gear on and way to many just froze to death. some did take the clothing off dead germans. just to stay alive in the cold of a winter storm.


.


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## packnrat (Feb 26, 2014)

fire21 ok i stand corrected as to the temp.

spark plug? where did i say that? for a vaperised gas leak to ignite, any spark will do. 
(pending the air to fuel mix). compression will also do the job.
smaller diesel motors use a glow plug. bigger ones do not need them.
but there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school. sounded like the block was being broken out from the inside.
as for burning lng in a diesel motor, one could adjust the timing and injectors...maybe????

i have not looked into multi fueled motors.

as for russa. they have always relied on using mass amounts of people to win a war.
but like the germans they did not allow for the very low temp and there oil could not work down that low in temp. if you turned off a motor it would never restart.
the russans were already set up for very cold temps.
look at our troops they came up from africa and italy. they had the wrong gear on and way to many just froze to death. some did take the clothing off dead germans. just to stay alive in the cold of a winter storm.


.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

packnrat said:


> spark plug? where did i say that? for a vaperised gas leak to ignite, any spark will do.
> (pending the air to fuel mix). compression will also do the job.
> smaller diesel motors use a glow plug. bigger ones do not need them.
> but there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school. sounded like the block was being broken out from the inside.
> ...


I agree, a vaporized gas leak, given sufficient oxygen, will ignite from any spark, provided the spark occurs within the upper and lower explosive limits of that fuel. I was referring to a spark plug being needed to ignite the mixture in the engine's cylinders.

Yeah, the old gasoline starter motors for diesels...lots of equipment had them. But the gas motors had spark plugs, and the diesels used compression to ignite the fuel.

I've done a whole lot of mechanicking over the years. I am not a mechanical engineer, but every engine fueled by gasoline, LNG or LPG that I've ever encountered has a spark plug to fire the mixture in the cylinder. Have you ever heard a gasoline engine "dieseling" after the ignition was shut off? They knock and bang and smell something awful. The compression is igniting the mixture outside the ideal ignition timing, thus fuel combustion is very incomplete and the knocking is damaging the engine, slowly but surely.

Locomotive said, "I know the CN sd40s converted to burn LNG still used 10% diesel to ignite the fuel not needing spark ignition." I must admit I've never heard of this system. I do know that some small 2-cycle engines (using a gas and oil fuel mixture) will diesel after shutting off the ignition switch...not often, but sometimes. However, diesel engines use a fuel shut-off to stop them, so that might be what CN is using on theirs.

The companies experimenting with this aren't stupid. They've obviously worked out a system to make it work. I'm curious as to what it is. Might be as simple as what Locomotive said, I don't know.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

packnrat said:


> there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school.


Local old timer had a saw mill powered by a monstrous diesel but it was started with a 4 cylinder gasoline pony motor. Start the 4 banger and when it was running smooth he's start giving it more gas as he pulled on a lever which I guess engaged a clutch of sorts connecting the pony to the diesel. Then after a minute or two with the pony was turning over the diesel he'd start feeding it fuel, as the diesel fired up he'd start to dis engage the clutch and reduce the rpm. It was quite a balancing act he did.

If there's a proper name I don't know it, it was always referred to as a "pony motor".


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## Locomotive (Jan 2, 2014)

CN retrofitted the diesel engines in two 3,000-horsepower Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD, a subsidiary of Progress Rail Services, a Caterpillar Company (NYSE: CAT)) -- SD40-2 locomotives to run on natural gas using conversion kits supplied by Energy Conversions Inc. (ECI) of Tacoma, Wash. ECI says the hybrid fuel locomotive will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 30 per cent and nitrogen oxide emissions by 70 per cent over a locomotive duty cycle. Click on here to view the locomotive set.

The retrofitted locomotives, using 90 per cent natural gas, with 10 per cent diesel fuel for ignition, are paired with a natural gas fuel tender, or specially equipped and protected tank car, between them. The tender was upgraded by a unit of Chart Industries, Inc., (NASDAQ: GTLS), located in New Prague, Minn. Natural gas fueling is being provided by Encana Corporation (TSX: ECA) (NYSE: ECA).


http://www.cn.ca/en/news/2012/09/media_news_cn_tests_natural_gas_locomotives_20120927

Pulled from the CN website.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> Old_Hobo, I Googled "Population of Russia", and got 143.5 million in 2012. That's less than half the population of the USA


....and that's too many! What'd I tell ya?


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Thank you, locomotive, that was interesting and informative.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

ktcards said:


> The question is what is the difference in hydrocarbons emissions of the two fuels.
> 
> K





gunrunnerjohn said:


> I would guess that the natural gas would be lower in emissions, at least that's the claim for oil fired vs gas fired furnaces and power plants.


I would think lower emissions, but more importantly (maybe?) lower particulates.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

Fire21 said:


> As for LNG for locomotives, under engine technology as I understand it, a spark plug would be required for ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Not sure how this would be accomplished on an existing diesel engine. Or are they talking replacing the nation's entire locomotive fleet?





Locomotive said:


> C
> 
> The retrofitted locomotives, using 90 per cent natural gas, with 10 per cent diesel fuel for ignition, are paired with a natural gas fuel tender, or specially equipped and protected tank car, between them. The tender was upgraded by a unit of Chart Industries, Inc., (NASDAQ: GTLS), located in New Prague, Minn. Natural gas fueling is being provided by Encana Corporation (TSX: ECA) (NYSE: ECA).
> 
> ...


Yeah I was going to mention Diesel-gas hybrid as an option instead of straight gas (until Locomotive beat me to it with proper info!)
They use that setup on some trucks over here (probably over there too) apparently the Diesel-Gas hybrid gets more power and a cleaner burn of the fuel. I've only heard about it and seen a couple of places advertising the systems, but haven't looked into it so I'm not sure on the upfront cost vs payoff period vs cost savings on fuel.


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## Locomotive (Jan 2, 2014)

Just a diesel truck injecting propane for better fuel economy and a slight bump in power.

I use nitrous injection in my diesel and we have experimented with propane and natural gas.
(cummins diesel drag truck) Propane didnt give a big enough power boost,natural gas made the EGT's to hot NOS gave a good bump in power and a cooler burn then Natural gas.

Just a burnout but this is my truck that I use NOS injection on 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwijF5FHHaI


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

4k is spinning pretty hard for a diesel. nice

edit.

did ya leave enough rubber on the ground?!

hahahah

edit2

I just did a bit of a google about the type of gas (LPG, not gasoline) that they sell at our local servos. Apparently its a mix of propane and butane.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Locomotive said:


> Just a burnout but this is my truck that I use NOS injection on
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwijF5FHHaI


Is this a street truck too? Mr. Obama needs to apply some of his EPA emissions restrictions to those who chip up their diesels on the street and leave those black clouds for others to drive through and breathe.


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## Locomotive (Jan 2, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> Is this a street truck too? Mr. Obama needs to apply some of his EPA emissions restrictions to those who chip up their diesels on the street and leave those black clouds for others to drive through and breathe.


Its ok my wife owns a prius makes up for the smoke on my part.

Yes it is a street truck.
I drive it a couple times a month.


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## spoil9 (Dec 24, 2008)

Trying this again? Makes sense since LNG is cheaper now. Just read about the BN trying this experiment with a pair of SD40-2's before they merged with the ATSF. (sad day)

BN #7149 and #7890

IEEE Abstract


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