# Figuring out how to power layout.



## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Hey guys, me again lol. In the midst of getting my layout finally together I'm pondering how to wire and power it all. Here is what my layout will look like:



At my disposal I have a Z4000 transformer and a couple lionel CW-30's and 80's. I plan on using the MTH DCS system with 1 TIU and 1 AIU. The 2 outer rails will be basically 1 track since they are connected and will be command only. The larger inner track will be conventional but would like the possibility of command, and the smallest loop will just be for seasonal trains so I will just run that off a CW-30 or 80.

I was thinking of having 1 channel of the Z4000 power the 2 outer tracks thru the fixed input port on the TIU and the other channel power the inner track thru variable voltage on the TIU. Does this seem like the best way to power this setup or does anyone else have any suggestions? 

Also, I'm assuming this but can't find a definitive answer anywhere; I'm guessing that if I use a transformer like the Z4000 I would have to have the handles at a certain voltage at all times to give the track power correct? And then the DCS system controls the speed of the locos.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

You may get more response on the "O" scale forum. Don


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Oh ok, figured I'm using DCS so I thought it would belong in command control. Can a mod move this please?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

*** moved ***

There are many ways to power it, so you need to define what kind of equipment will be on each loop. Personally, I'd probably power two channels of the TIU from one side of the Z4000, and the other two channels from the other side of the Z4000. Then I'd connect route one of the TIU outputs from each side to the two green loops, and the other two channels to the yellow and red loop.

This is not chiseled in stone, you can always change it later.

One thing to keep in mind for the best DCS performance, use star wiring with the drops from each power district all coming to a central terminal block, then running to the TIU outputs. So, if the outer loops have four drops, they'd all come to a common point, and then get wired to the TIU output. Same for the other loops respectively to the other loops.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

The 2 outer loops will be constant voltage tracks with command engines, in this case a Big Boy 4-8-8-4 on the outer green track and a Conrail SD80MAC diesel on the inner green track. The yellow track will most likely be a conventional Williams engine but if I do get another command engine I like the idea of the yellow track being command control available. Then the smallest loop will just be seasonal conventional trains like the polar express and Transylvania express.

So let me see if I got this, I can use 1 side of the Z4000 to power the 2 fixed input ports on the TIU, then have those 2 ports go to both the inner and outer part of the green loop. Then use the other side of the Z4000 to power the variable voltage input ports on the TIU, and then have that go to the yellow and red loops. Does that make sense?

Another thing, will 1 side of the Z4000 be ok with powering a Big Boy and an SD80MAC? The Big Boy may pull a passenger load with lighted cars, and the Conrail will just have basic rolling stock.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Again, I'd split the outer two loops between the transformer outputs as I described. Basically, run one transformer output to one fixed and one variable TIU channel input. Run the other transformer output to the other two TIU channel inputs.

Set the transformer to 18 volts on both sides.

Connect one TIU fixed output to the outer tracks.
Connect the other TIU fixed output to the other set of green tracks.
Collect one variable output to the red loop.
Connect one TIU variable output to the yellow loop.

Note that you can configure the TIU variable channels for "fixed" output by default. This allows you to run command stuff on all four tracks if you like. When you want to run a conventional locomotive on those tracks, all it takes is addressing the track with the DCS remote using the TR key and pressing the TVZ soft-key to drop the track voltage to zero, and now the channel is in variable mode for conventional running.

You have the best of both worlds. I suspect you're going to run the biggest and most power-hungry stuff on the green tracks, so that's why I wire the way I recommend.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Oooooh ok, I misunderstood what you said at first. I don't recall you specifying which TIU channels to connect per transformer output. That does make sense though, I think I will go that route. I didn't know I could split the load from 1 output to 2 different inputs on the TIU. 

Thank you again for all your help, seeing as how you've replied to all my threads about all different sections of what I've been doing lol. I do have good news though. I just bought the rest of my track today AND I'm painting the insulation as we speak, so expect pics soon!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sounds great, looking forward to the progress pictures. 

You can power as many TIU channels from one source as you like. Right now, I am using two channels of the TIU, I use the variable channels in fixed mode to power two loops. That works out well, because I can run command with them locked into fixed mode, but if I'm testing a conventional locomotive, I can simply hit a couple buttons on the remote and I have conventional control from the remote on that loop without changing any wires.

Since I power the TIU from the first channel, I just parallel the fixed and variable channel to a PowerHouse 180, and the same for the other two channels on another PowerHouse 180.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Alright here we go, finished up what I could do last night and took a few pics:

Insulation on the table:









Test fitting what track I had and clearance:









Stripped down and painted a dark brown for a base of dirt:









And a couple setup shots with what I had to throw on there:



























Hopefully in a couple weeks I'll have the money for the DCS system and I can get it all wired up and running!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Amazing progress, you're really moving along!


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Ok, I just got my DCS system today and was doing quick wiring the way you said with each fixed TIU channel powering 1 set of green tracks, but when you go to raise voltage on 1 channel of the Z4000 the other channel shows voltage because its being powered by the other side. My buddy was here that is an electrician and the one that got me into the hobby and he said thats a big no-no because the other side of the transformer is getting feedback since they are the same common track.

And 2 other things, my DCS system is used as it has trains loaded onto it still and was supposed to be new, so I have to take that back. And I just realized I can't run my Lionel engines without at least the TMCC command base.


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## vetkrazy (Jul 23, 2013)

I like what you are doing but I have a noob question. How are you working in the center area of your layout? Walking on the table? Also, what is your layouts dimensions?

Thanx


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

I can actually reach almost all the way to the center from either side of the table, and if not, I can reach my hands up thru the gap in the center lol. The dimensions are close to 11ft x 11ft.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The common outside tracks are NOT the problem here. I suspect that you have power feeding through the switches to the other loop. You need to isolate the center rails of the switches as they transition to the other powered loop.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

So if I isolate them will one train still be able to transition from the outer to the inner and vice versa? And how should I go about that? Cut a notch in the center rail between the switches? Or is there some other way?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Leave out the center pin and make sure they do not touch. They sell plastic pins for that purpose. They have a rim to keep each side isolated.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

That really is quite a layout, thanks for sharing


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks for the kind words Carl. 

I actually went down and looked at the switches and the little pieces that have roadbed on 1 side and not the other have a notch already in the center rail and theres a wire connecting both sides under the track. So I guess I just leave out that wire on 2 of the switches and the tracks are isolated?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use one of the 1 3/8" Fastrack sections between loops to isolate the center pin. Just flip it over and pull out the jumper wire. I think T-Man is thinking tubular track, not Fastrack. While you can isolate Fastrack, it's not as simple to remove a pin, you have to pull up a track.

For insulated sections, I just cut the track with a Dremel cutting wheel, you can do that as well.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Lol! Posted at the same time. Thanks for clarifying john. 

Now all I have to do is wait for the train store to open again to take back my DCS system since its a used one and I paid for new. And since I only have Lionel engines right now I need to get the TMCC commander base as well.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bummer, I just sold a TMCC system on eBay. 

If you're going Lionel, I suggest holding out for the Legacy system, you'll be glad you did!


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Well I was going to get the MTH system first since I was under the impression it would run Lionels right out of the box in command mode, but I didn't realize I need at least the TMCC command base to control them with the DCS system. If I can get the TMCC base from my train shop will it control legacy locomotives as well thru the DCS?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The TMCC system controls Legacy stuff, but only in TMCC mode. You miss out on many of the neat features of Legacy running it in TMCC mode. OTOH, that is the cheap way to get both systems running on the layout.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

As long as TMCC mode still has speed control and bell and whistle and all that I'm fine with that for now, especially since you apparently can't get a hold of the Legacy system right now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The Legacy systems will soon be back on the shelves, Lionel was experiencing production issues over in China.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Oh ok, I was wondering what was up. Good news though! I finally got a hold of my train shop and they told me to come by even though they are technically closed today. I got a brand new still in the plastic DCS system, exchanged my switch that the lamp wasn't working, AND he let me borrow his older TMCC system with the CAB-1 remote! He said I can use it for about a month to see if its what I want to do with my layout and then I'll give it back. So now comes all the wiring!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's great. If you keep an eye out, the command base come along at times on eBay, adding that to the DCS system gives you TMCC at a pretty low price.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Yeah I've seen the command base on ebay and theres a couple on trainz.com as well for about $80. Since I couldn't get those within this week while I was off I was happy he had something I could use for now. Looks to be a simple hookup too, got the cable to go from the command base to the TIU and then running the common wire to both outside tracks since those will be the only ones my 2 lionel command engines will run on.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You should be able to score a command base only for around $50. Truthfully, I'd try to get the remote as well, because there are certain operations you can't do with the DCS remote.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Well I got everything wired up last night and put my Conrail Diesel on the track, moved the voltage up on my Z4000 to 18v and it stayed put like it was supposed to. I added it to my DCS remote under TMCC and it started right up and started moving along in increments. While it was moving though there was no change in the engine rev sounds, and then after shutting it down it won't respond to start up again. It powers up under track power with the lights and smoke unit but won't respond to starting up. Also, a couple times I got the speed up to 31 and it would move a couple inches real slow then stop, I hope its not damaged but I don't know how.

Then I tried my big boy and even in program mode it tries to take off as soon as I raise track voltage.

Also, neither of the engines respond to the TMCC remote either.

I'm actually not liking that I have to lower and raise the handles on the z4000 every time I turn off and on the layout.

So last night started good but went downhill.  Any suggestions?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, it's pretty normal to raise the transformer voltage when you're running command with something like you have, and that shouldn't damage anything.

First step: Turn off the TIU and TMCC and try the locomotives in conventional mode. Any TMCC or DCS locomotive should run normally in conventional mode, see how that works out first. If that works, then you can take the next step.

Next step: Connect the TMCC base to the track, and totally remove the DCS setup from the equation, we want to run in pure TMCC mode. Try one of the locomotives with the TMCC remote. If you still have issues, try reprogramming it's ID, and also do the reset as described in the manual under setting the ID.

Let us know how that works out.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Alright I'm about to go try that out now, I'll post back my results.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Alright, put the Conrail on conventional track and it worked fine, then put it on the track with just TMCC hooked up and it worked perfectly fine. Then I put the big boy on and no matter if its in run or program it just starts running. I think my buddies did that when he first got his and he had to send it back for repairs. I got mine from the same shop and around the same time as he did so it might be the same issue.

Now where should I go with hooking the DCS back up and running the Conrail at least?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, I suspect from your description that the Big Boy is indeed experiencing an issue.

For the DCS system, what I have is two 180W bricks with each wired to two of the input channels, one fixed and one variable. I configure the DCS for fixed operation on the variable channels. From the outputs wire each output to a separate power district, in your case a track loop.

Connect the TMCC command base with the serial cable to the DCS TIU, leave the signal wire from the TMCC command base connected to the track common.

You should be ready to run with either the CAB1 or the DCS remote.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

I actually wired it exactly like you said, each channel of the z4000 is powering 1 of each of the variable and fixed channels of the TIU, then the 2 fixed channels are going to separate loops of the green tracks. I also tried connecting the common from the command base to either the outside rail of the track or the outputs from the TIU, makes no difference.

The Conrail worked with just the TMCC but as soon as I hook up the DCS I get nothing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Do you get track power going through the TIU? The TIU passing the power should not affect the TMCC at all. There has to be something simple we're overlooking.

If you connect the TIU variable channels to the tracks, can you run conventional locomotives from the DCS remote?


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Yup, track power goes thru the TIU, and on either of the conventional tracks I ran conventional locomotives with no problem.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, that's a mystery.

With the TIU and TMCC connected together, can you still run the TMCC stuff with the TMCC CAB1 remote? Perhaps this is just a problem with the cable between the two boxes.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

When both systems are connected it won't respond to the CAB1 remote anymore, but standalone it will. I'm not sure how to test if its the cable or not so I don't know what to do there. I'm just gonna cut my losses and sell off my 2 Lionel locos and stay with strictly MTH and DCS.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd probably have to see that one. I know tons of folks, including me, that have just plugged these together and then run trains.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

I would take a short video but I already packed up the TMCC system and the 2 locos. I went over my connections multiple times and everything was right and tight, so I have no idea.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That makes two of us.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Oh well, like I said I only have 2 Lionel legacy locos so I'll just sell them off and stick to MTH since I have the DCS system now.

I did run my grandfathers MTH Berkshire around and the track is working out great. I do have to delete and re-add the engine everytime its shut off and I read that its because of the battery, and it is a PS2 loco from at least 7 years ago so I'm just gonna replace it when I can get another one. Thanks for all the help and tips john.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to say, that issue is pretty odd, don't think I've ever encountered an issue with TMCC like that. Usually, it's the DCS that you have to do a bit of tinkering to get working.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Yeah I've had no problems with the DCS at all, even with the 4 different tracks. The conventional ones were already there and ready to go and worked great.

I do have another question though on a different topic. When I raise the voltage to 18 on each channel of the Z4000, the one the loco is on has to be raised higher to get to 18, then if I switch tracks the track it started on jumps to about 20 volts when it leaves the track and the track it went to drops to about 17 or 16 volts. So, should I raise them a little higher to 20 volts to compensate for that or is that little dip in voltage ok?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I wouldn't raise the voltage, I'd find out why you're getting the voltage drop.


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## deviltrigger529 (Jul 9, 2013)

Hmm, I thought it was normal with the load of the loco. I'll try with another loco when I get one and see if its the loco doing it or if it could be wiring or the transformer itself. Shouldn't be wiring though, my layout isn't really that big so my wire runs are pretty simple.


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