# K-Line 21" Passenger Cars-No Longer an Easy Find



## Guest (Jan 4, 2016)

I don't think there is any argument among our Forum members that K-Line offered a wonderful product at a fair price. Among the best products that they produced were their 21" Lightweight passenger cars. 

I can remember a time when on the secondary market they were easily available and at a good price. Those days appear to be long over. There are fairly common cars/sets that are available like the ESE cars and some of the PRR sets, but they are not cheap. Try to find the UP, GN, NP, Surfliners, and Sante Fe (particularly the Hi-Levels) and good luck.

So what has caused this scarcity? Sure, these cars are aluminum, not plastic. That in itself is a real advantage. Lionel has made the decision to go plastic with their new 21" passenger car line. Atlas is also plastic in their 21" passenger car offerings. 

The 21" size does limit the number of layouts that these cars can comfortable run. But with a more limited target market, the cars are still in high demand. What's your take? Why do you think these cars/sets are so highly sort after.

Our Forum member Rboater2 (Jim) prompted my thoughts about this today in a recent post when he talked about how hard it has been for him to find a 21" UP passenger cars set.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I guess I must have good lucky, I have found all of the rare ones Brian listed this year, I did see the UP set once but they were in the hands of the new owner. 

There is always something new to hunt for.........


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am not really looking as my passenger trains are pretty much complete but I have seen quite a few SF 21" cars at Dash. Unfortunately not in sets which has to be pretty aggravating for anyone trying to build a set. I just sold my only K-Line 21" ESE car this weekend to a club member and there was an SP Daylight set just offered on OGR. When you are looking they are impossible to find but after you do find them then they are everywhere.

Pete


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2016)

From past experience, I have seen K-Line cars listed on the Dash site when in fact they were not available. I don't follow them anymore.

I believe K-Line did a whole bunch of ESE cars because of the popularity of the NYC and the high concentration of modelers in this part of the country. My guess is that is why ESE cars seem to be available on a regular basis. Much more so than other road names.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Norton said:


> I am not really looking as my passenger trains are pretty much complete but I have seen quite a few SF 21" cars at Dash. Unfortunately not in sets which has to be pretty aggravating for anyone trying to build a set. I just sold my only K-Line 21" ESE car this weekend to a club member and there was an SP Daylight set just offered on OGR. When you are looking they are impossible to find but after you do find them then they are everywhere.
> 
> Pete


When you do find them, you have to pull the trigger!!! I found a auction on ebay for 9 cars of the Great Northern in two rail with each in it own auction on Ebay. I hate when they split a set. I bid on a auction like that in the past only to only get one car. Later I found the complete set in a auction and had to sell the one car I brought. I email the the guy with the 9 Great Northern and he still had the 3 rail trucks from when he converted them to 2 rail. I then made a deal with him for all 9 with the 3 rail trucks and told him I would send back the 2 rail trucks. Waiting for them to come and then begin the work of changing the trucks. 
It's all about making the deal work.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2016)

The Great Northern set is one of the hardest to find. No wonder, it is beautifully done. Good find Jim. Now it is on to the pulling power referred to in another thread.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I would agree. I try and keep an eye out at the normal spots and they are appearing less and less. And the ones that are available appear to be in less than desirable condition. There is a K Line Surfliner set that I keep missing. Hopefully someday, I'll be able to grab it quick enough.


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

I've focused on getting the 18" K-Line cars as that matches up with all the Lionel and MTH passenger cars I already have. Even the 18' cars are ha to find and it took me a long time to come up with a 8 car Santa Fe consist as those are very,very popular. I can't wait to run that full consist with about 5-6 head end express boxcars behind a A-B-B-A set of ALCo PA/PB's.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I bought a pair of the GN 21" cars at Timonium a year ago. I got the pair for $30, and they were NIB! I didn't really need them, but at that price I simply couldn't walk by! I sold them a few days later for over $200. We all shook our heads as to why they were so cheap! It was the Big Sky Blue 2-car set.

One of our club members bought the six car K-Line Milwaukee Road 21" set for $116 off eBay, that included shipping! They were listed as "yellow passenger cars", talk about falling into it!


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I do have a Mth FF-1 Electric Engine With Proto-Soundr 2.0, that I am planning to run with the cars until.......


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have that same locomotive in PRR livery. I got it because it was cheap and unusual.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

$116 for a six car set takes the cake. A few years ago some club members and I were on our way to Toronto to visit a club up there. We stopped at a hobby shop in St Catherines that was closing out their O scale. The same guy that bought my ESE car picked up 8 K-Line UP cars for 400 bucks(Canadian). There were six 21" cars and two 18" cars. Not bad deal.

Pete


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have that same locomotive in PRR livery. I got it because it was cheap and unusual.


I am with you on that John, I too like the unusual engines. Can just have all "F" and "E"


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Norton said:


> $116 for a six car set takes the cake. A few years ago some club members and I were on our way to Toronto to visit a club up there. We stopped at a hobby shop in St Catherines that was closing out their O scale. The same guy that bought my ESE car picked up 8 K-Line UP cars for 400 bucks(Canadian). There were six 21" cars and two 18" cars. Not bad deal.
> 
> Pete


That was a deal!!!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was floored when I saw these two, the guy had a whole table of cars he was selling for $20 a car, those were there in the pile. When I was looking at one, he said he didn't want to split them up, so how about $30 for both! I was going to pay him the $20/ea without a problem, I just wanted to see one to make sure they were as they appeared, he just jumped too fast.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2016)

John, that is the most inexpensive amount I have ever heard of for 21" K-Lines. What a deal!

Jim, mighty fine looking locomotive to pull your GN cars.


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## Hudson J1e (Nov 19, 2015)

When a friend of mine was gravely ill be sold me a 4 car NYC set for $200. This was many years ago and was only slightly less than going rate at the time. Of course I didn't debate the price. Years after that I sold that set for $400 because I didn't want to convert it and I liked the GGD cars better. However, the K-Line cars were very nicely done and it doesn't surprise me that they are hard to find these days.

Now that prices for passenger cars have gone up a lot maybe the folks who have the K-Line cars are holding on to them because they can't afford to replace them with GGD, Atlas or Lionel versions?


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

For me, timing was everything. I was able to get most of my K-Line passenger inventory at blow out prices just before K-Line closed their doors. Even after that announcement, some stores were blowing them out and I continued to rake them in.

I believe these cars are popular because at the time they were made they were the best looking passenger sets available, along with being made of aluminum. Even though they are a generic design they look better than any other passenger train when traveling a layout, until 3RD Rail and Atlas O began churning out 21" sets. It will be interesting to see where Lionel goes with their 21" passenger sets. Will they make them far into the future or give up on them after a few runs? Order your UP Business cars while you can!!!




gunrunnerjohn said:


> I bought a pair of the GN 21" cars at Timonium a year ago. I got the pair for $30, and they were NIB! I didn't really need them, but at that price I simply couldn't walk by! I sold them a few days later for over $200. We all shook our heads as to why they were so cheap! It was the Big Sky Blue 2-car set……..


The GN 'Blue Sky' cars were made by Lionel under the _K-Line by Lionel_ name. They were made with the molds from the K-Line cars when Sanda Kan made them available to Lionel. Now I believe that Kader, the parent company of Bachman, has control of the passenger molds.



rboatertoo said:


> I do have a Mth FF-1 Electric Engine With Proto-Soundr 2.0, that I am planning to run with the cars until.......


The Empire Builder was mostly pulled by F3's, F7's, FT's (for a little while) and E7's. MTH makes a really nice E8 set with PS3, but the Great Northern didn't have any E8's. I bought a set several years ago with PS2 before I learned this fact, but they still look really nice and I'm running them anyway!!


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

When you do find them, they usually go for a hefty price. Saw the El Capitan transition car go for over $400 again the other day on Flea Bay. It's still $400-$600 for that 1 car. Even the step down cars for over $300. I could use another step down car.... but not for those prices. I'll just wait for my 2nd run order of the GGD cars.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I did see the 18" Black bonnets a couple of months ago. The 4 pack and the 2-2 packs went for about $4,700. 

It must be Southern Pacific turn on ebay. There is another set of 10

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321967050206?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> .....Try to find the UP, GN, NP, Surfliners, and Sante Fe (particularly the Hi-Levels) and good luck.
> 
> So what has caused this scarcity? Sure, these cars are aluminum, not plastic. That in itself is a real advantage. Lionel has made the decision to go plastic with their new 21" passenger car line. Atlas is also plastic in their 21" passenger car offerings.
> 
> ...


K-Line UP passenger cars are hot items, which has added to the scarcity. High demand & low/no turn over in the market fueled the fire to buy whenever they're available because they are hard to find.

They're the last aluminum 21" cars we'll see-the recent GGD set is beautiful, but at well beyond $1,000 for a 4 car set, a hefty price to pay!

Over the last yr and a half, I've noticed the fountain has went dry, so to speak. When they do become available, expect to pay a large premium.

Here's one reason why UP cars are scarce-the flat end observation car. A separate sale item, it was the ONLY 3R type of this particular car ever made, unique only to UP. Highly desirable , not to mention it completes the train. New, it sold for $125; now, it sells for $375 (lowest price I've saw) to $650 in a recent auction. The last one I saw for sale was last April...

The 2 packs are also difficult to find. Typically sell for $200 plus per car-if they can be found. Some will sell well beyond $200/ea-try to find a Chair car or Placid Haven....

I'm thankful for the sets I own. 

A few 18" UP cars are darn to find also-separate sale 2 packs are difficult to locate. Still looking for 5 of those.

On another note, can't wait for the UP Excursion train-I think it'll be very nicely done.

A great time to be in the hobby!


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2016)

The O-Gauge hobby has developed an appetite for the 21" cars. K-Line was the forerunner to this trend. Now with GGD, Atlas, and Lionel, it will be interesting to see what is ahead.

Thanks all for your responses.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

It'll be interesting to see what lies ahead for K-line cars. 

I believe the new 21" ABS plastic cars will have NO impact on desirability/price of the K-line 21" aluminum cars. Collectors and operators each have reasons why they want aluminum cars/K-line passenger equipment.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2016)

*"Collectors and operators each have reasons why they want aluminum cars/K-line passenger equipment."*

Aaron, I hope that you are correct about this. I think that you are. Something really special about aluminum in our passenger cars.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Question: Were the K-line 21" car popular when they came out? I am asking this because it's been over 10 years since the last ones were made. Having not been in the hobby at the time, I am curious. When K-line went down why didn't Lionel make the 21" cars, since that had the license to make them? I know they made the TS and Gn sky blue and Yellow Milwaukee, but they let it die.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

From what I've seen the 21" passenger cars did not sell quickly at first. At the time they were first delivered they were fairly expensive compared to other passenger equipment on the market. Plus they were, I believe, first with 21" car sets. Several dealers started to discount them heavily and they started to move. I bought several sets for very reasonable prices, even pre-orders, in the 2003 to 2006 time frame.

Lionel only made the sets you mentioned after being offered use of the molds by K-Line's supplier. The passenger cars and several other former K-Line items were offered under the _K-Line by Lionel_ name. Then Lionel eventually phased out the line completely. Then Bachman's parent company ('Kader' I think) acquired K-Line's supplier (Sanda Kan) and now own the molds of the former K-Line 21" passenger cars. Subsequently, Bachman has said that producing them again would be too expensive to fit in their pricing structure they have for O gauge trains.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2016)

Brian has given us a very accurate accounting of the history of the K-Line 21" passenger cars. He also had the wisdom to purchase many sets at a great price. Smart move on his part.

Those that are fortunate to have these sets really relish them compared to what is out there now. They sure look good and glide very easily on the rails.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

IMO, the new Atlas CZ cars blow everything out of the water as far as detail. Not even the GGD cars are that nice, and well below the GGD price so far. I don't know how Atlas did it for that price. I only have 4 of them for an excursion train, but can imagine how great a 12 or 14 car train would look behind an Atlas set of F7s


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2016)

Doug, the magic word is *PLASTIC*. Far less production costs.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

True, BUT most of my GGD cars are plastic too. The El Capitan cars are aluminum.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

"Here's one reason why UP cars are scarce-the flat end observation car."

Boy, that's the truth. Wish someone would make one in 15" to get My City of Portland closer to prototypical.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

rboatertoo said:


> Question: Were the K-line 21" car popular when they came out? I am asking this because it's been over 10 years since the last ones were made. Having not been in the hobby at the time, I am curious. When K-line went down why didn't Lionel make the 21" cars, since that had the license to make them? I know they made the TS and Gn sky blue and Yellow Milwaukee, but they let it die.


That's an interesting pair of related questions - especially the second one about why Lionel did not make more of the 21" cars. Responding to them in turn:

1. I have only the Legacy K-Line catalog to go by as opposed to memory but I suspect that the original cars were overpriced when they were released. As Brian (PTC) points out in a related thread they are now scarce.

2. Only Lionel can answer the question but I suspect they had limited access to the tooling and used it only for what they were sure would sell - after all at the time there was still a good supply of K-Line passenger sets in the secondary market.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> "Here's one reason why UP cars are scarce-the flat end observation car."
> 
> Boy, that's the truth. Wish someone would make one in 15" to get My City of Portland closer to prototypical.


Forrest,
There's a fix for you-I spotted a UP flat end observation end cap piece at the Indy O Scale Show last September. I think I bought a couple, will have to check my parts inventory (later this month) to see what I got. If I have an extra, you can have it for what I paid. 

Simply cut off the end of a coach (or dome coach) and epoxy the flat end brass piece in place. A little paint and you'll be in business.

It's interesting to note from the comments that some of the 21" K-line cars weren't big sellers at the time. If we could just have a crystal ball to tell the future....

I know 18" UP add on cars weren't huge sellers. I find more 21" UP cars than the 18" models.

LOS brought up ABS plastic and I'm a fan. If Lionel pulls off what Atlas has done, we're in for a treat (It appears they have! The ESE cars look fantastic). I love the aluminum cars (especially K-line) but the possibilities for ABS detail are only limited by what we can imagine. AND, plastic is much easier to work with than brass or aluminum-though possible, it costs much more than ABS.

Great thread, Brian. Lots of good info here.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> Forrest,
> There's a fix for you-I spotted a UP flat end observation end cap piece at the Indy O Scale Show last September. I think I bought a couple, will have to check my parts inventory (later this month) to see what I got. If I have an extra, you can have it for what I paid.
> 
> Simply cut off the end of a coach (or dome coach) and epoxy the flat end brass piece in place. A little paint and you'll be in business.
> ...


Brakeman, I need your help in finding the 21" UP, PLEASE. I can find the 18" UP all the time, but I haven't found one UP in 21" in a year of looking!!! Any advice on the places to find those?


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> That's an interesting pair of related questions - especially the second one about why Lionel did not make more of the 21" cars. Responding to them in turn:
> 
> 1. I have only the Legacy K-Line catalog to go by as opposed to memory but I suspect that the original cars were overpriced when they were released. As Brian (PTC) points out in a related thread they are now scarce.
> 
> 2. Only Lionel can answer the question but I suspect they had limited access to the tooling and used it only for what they were sure would sell - after all at the time there was still a good supply of K-Line passenger sets in the secondary market.


I also wondering if the reason Lionel didn't was that after the long court battle with K-line, they didn't have the financial resources to bring the cars to market? The legal fees and all. If that court battle hadn't been fought would both companies had been better off? Would K-line still be in business? Let alone would the hobby been farther along?


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## J. S. Bach (Sep 20, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> ...snip...
> Here's one reason why UP cars are scarce-the flat end observation car. A separate sale item, it was the ONLY 3R type of this particular car ever made, unique only to UP. Highly desirable , not to mention it completes the train. New, it sold for $125; now, it sells for $375 (lowest price I've saw) to $650 in a recent auction. The last one I saw for sale was last April... ...snip...


Hmmmf, maybe I should sell mine; I got it last year for $149.00 shipped.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

"Forrest,
There's a fix for you-I spotted a UP flat end observation end cap piece at the Indy O Scale Show last September. I think I bought a couple, will have to check my parts inventory (later this month) to see what I got. If I have an extra, you can have it for what I paid. "

Wow! That would be super!


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## Railrunnin (Dec 24, 2015)

rboatertoo said:


> I did see the 18" Black bonnets a couple of months ago. The 4 pack and the 2-2 packs went for about $4,700.
> 
> It must be Southern Pacific turn on ebay. There is another set of 10
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321967050206?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


Jim (and possibly Nancy)

Is that a typo? That is $587 per car 

Love this thread. Nothing looks nicer than a 21" passenger car going around a nicely scenicked (sp?) layout. I'm unfortunately in the hunt for the Santa Fe 18" Hi-Level K-Line Set. If anyone has a lead they could send it would be most appreciated.

Funny how our tastes change. I consider myself a mostly freight guy, but my favorite consists to run are the K-Line Black Bonnet and the MTH Amtrak Three Stripe Superliners. And more and more I'm looking at Passenger Cars in the catalogs. I blame Brian. 

Paul


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2016)

I am on the hunt for you, Paul. The Sante Fe set are really nice cars.

And yes, I am to blame for your acquired passion.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

Paul, that is what the Blackbonnets sold for. Pretty amazing stuff.

Your RI neighbor Wood has a beautiful set of them with the matching diesels. You need to pay him a visit. Wonderful folks and if you like Labs, they have a new puppy, Zeke.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Railrunnin said:


> Jim (and possibly Nancy)
> 
> Is that a typo? That is $587 per car
> 
> ...


As time goes by, the rarer cars/sets, especially in mint/sealed/NIB condition will deman the highest premium. I think we can all agree upon that!

The desire for the K-Line Al cars will neve peak IMO. The future will bring less of them to market, increasing their value. Bachman, Lionel, and a few other manfs have stated that to produce 21" Al cars would be cost prohibitive. Even GGD is slowly moving from Al-my GGD Al cars are beauties, but at well over $250/car + $75 shipping I'll pass on the next offering;who am I kidding?....haha!



Passenger Train Collector said:


> ....
> And yes, I am to blame for your acquired passion.


Brian is reponsible for more than a few of us! I love the guy though, it opened a whole new world of collecting!

Jim, I got your PM, will try to reply today.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Railrunnin said:


> Jim (and possibly Nancy)
> 
> Is that a typo? That is $587 per car
> 
> ...


Nope that was a true auction. One of the 2 packs went for $2700, the same person brought all of them for $4700.00


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

I think the 21" K-Line passenger cars are an amazing story. Their worth sure has been proven over the test of time. And that is probably the best measurement you can apply.

I have enjoyed my many discussions about these cars with two of our prominent MTF members, Cincinnati Western (Jason) and Rboatertoo (Jim). They are two individuals who have become very well versed in the history and availability of the K-Line passenger cars. To say they are a wealth of knowledge would be an understatement.

What's out there in the competitive market? Atlas has their line of 21" plastic passenger cars with excellent details, but an exterior finish that I feel is lacking. Lionel has just released their first set of 21" plastic ESE passenger cars that has a wonderful new coupling system, but like the Atlas cars, an exterior finish that I believe is unacceptable. GGD Lightweight cars are aluminum which is a real plus with excellent details, but an exterior finish that in the sets that replicate stainless steel, I also consider as dull. For some, the bright shiny K-Line stainless steel effect is too much, but not for me. They have a look all to themselves that I believe this has made them so popular against the competition.

I do agree with Aaron who suggests that the K-Lines will be highly sort after now and in the future. If you have them, enjoy these special passenger cars.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I purchased my SP set from Cincinnati Western, thanks again.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

The only issue that I've had with some of my K Line Aluminum passenger cars is some paint flaking..most of the time on the roof. It's not a big deal as it's easy to touch up. These cars do have some age on them now. 

Still overall my favorites.


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

Please excuse my ignorance, but did the AT&SF ever have a black Warbonnet scheme, or was this a result of a "Blackface" Warbonnet springing from a miscue in a Lionel catalog when the #2333's first came out? Just curious...

According to a CTT article I read several years ago, the catalog artist responsible for coloring the Lionel consumer catalog that year tried to replicate a chrome look to the SF F-units, but they came out looking black instead of chrome/alum. finished, and that has led to some imitation blackface AT&SF units being made. Does anyone else know the story? Is this right?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

callmeIshmael2 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, but did the AT&SF ever have a black Warbonnet scheme, or was this a result of a "Blackface" Warbonnet springing from a miscue in a Lionel catalog when the #2333's first came out? Just curious...
> 
> According to a CTT article I read several years ago, the catalog artist responsible for coloring the Lionel consumer catalog that year tried to replicate a chrome look to the SF F-units, but they came out looking black instead of chrome/alum. finished, and that has led to some imitation blackface AT&SF units being made. Does anyone else know the story? Is this right?


I read the same in Ron Hollander's _All Aboard_ about the SF F Units in the catalog.

Can't answer the black Warbonnet question-sure LOS or SF Jim will jump in here.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2016)

Black Warbonnets, they never had them, period.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Brian wanted to see pictures of my new K-line, but I didn't think I could get it all in on one picture so I shot a video.






It was a bad night in train land, at the end of the video you hear a crash, that is the C&NW running into the Alaska and two cars from the C&NW hitting the floor from the upper level. 
The inside loop I am running 4 Mth trains on all engines with no problem. The monorail is also running overhead.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2016)

Thanks for the video, Jim. Sorry about the "crash". Sure hope that none of those beautiful new K-Line C&NW cars were damaged from the fall.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Thanks for the video, Jim. Sorry about the "crash". Sure hope that none of those beautiful new K-Line C&NW cars were damaged from the fall.


It was two of the C&NW, one was fine, the other I was able to repair.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

rboatertoo said:


> It was two of the C&NW, one was fine, the other I was able to repair.


The video is a real feast of hi-level cars, thanks for posting it. I knew the second I heard the sound at the end that a couple of them had crashed from some height - perhaps there is something to be said for carpet layouts after all! Glad you were able to fix the damaged one. :appl:


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Brian: This was a good topic idea, AA just re started an old thread on the same topic on org.

"I know this topic was started quite a while back but it seems even more "current" with the prices and demand we are seeing. With the great looking Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD 21" cars and the Lionel 21" cars, the K-line 21 inchers just seem to still be in high demand... Recent sales here on the forum and on the auction sites seems to be climbing!!

Alan"

Copying is the ......


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Maybe AA has spied on our world 

Probably heard this is the place to have fun!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I seem to remember asking some time back that thread to be open-fell upon deaf ears.

Had lots to contribute there. Keep it to myself or here. A few more cars and I'll show all the UP stuff.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> I seem to remember asking some time back that thread to be open-fell upon deaf ears.
> 
> Had lots to contribute there. Keep it to myself or here. A few more cars and I'll show all the UP stuff.


Please show and tell here


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2016)

There was several C&NW 21" K-Line passenger cars cars on eBay this week that went for prices near the ceiling. The demand for them has not diminished.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> There was several C&NW 21" K-Line passenger cars cars on eBay this week that went for prices near the ceiling. The demand for them has not diminished.


Brian sure nailed that one. I watched those auctions out of interest considering the rare cars.

4 car C&NW set-$1,425

Single car prices:
Low price car-$305
High price car-$675
A lot of others in the $400-$450 range.

The prices on the rare cars are soaring. Incredible.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2016)

Aaron, this is exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread. I look at the auction sites regularly and there is no doubt that there is a keen interest in these beauties.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> Brian sure nailed that one. I watched those auctions out of interest considering the rare cars.
> 
> 4 car C&NW set-$1,425
> 
> ...


The e8 went for $810, now that is well past the ceiling!!!!!!


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

A slight sidetrack. 

21" cars are certainly gorgeous and it seems like many of the posters here on MTF run and/or display 21" cars. 

I don't. I run 15" cars because they look best on my O54 curves and because I could find much of what I wanted, in large part because K-Line was seemingly producing them at the same rate that they were producing 21" cars. 

How many are there like me out there? 

At this point, I am not looking to expand my passenger fleet, but if someone made the Hiawatha cars with the beaver tail obs car in 15", I would be right there.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2016)

What is exceptional about the K-Line passenger cars is the quality is the same in the 15" and 18" sets as well as the 21" size. They all have that spectacular look to them.

So if a layout cannot support the 21" cars, there is little to no sacrifice to run the smaller lengths. 

K-Line sure did it right!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

To add to Forrest's comment about the shorter cars, it seems as if the K-Line models are taking off in desirability/cost.

I was outbid last night on a 18" set. Really bummed me out as I've never saw that set for sale before. Really wanted them...

Back to searching!


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

What set was that?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

A couple of rare K-Line 21" cars I've been meaning to post. 

The flat end observation and Chair car.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Stop teasing me, I have been looking for those for over a year!!!!!! I have yet to find just 1 car!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Jim,
I sent you a PM.

Aaron


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Thanks Aaron


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

Little late to the party on this, but these are my favorite cars by a mile...perhaps two miles!

The rarest as a set are the GN Empire Builder, followed by the UP City of LA. Last spring three sets of the City of LA were sold, strangely not commanding huge price, but within a few weeks individual cars started selling commanding prices two to three times the price per car of the sets. I've not seen the Empire Builder for sale in sometime, a couple years. 

I was fortunate enough to have Ted at OK Engines, cut the Santa Fe El Captain "575" so it now has the correct window placements, I will post a couple photos this week -- have been meaning to do so for sometime.

To anyone considering these, go for it, they are the best in terms of running and the stainless finish can't be beat.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

CincinnatiWestern said:


> ...... Last spring three sets of the City of LA were sold, strangely not commanding huge price, but within a few weeks individual cars started selling commanding prices two to three times the price per car of the sets..


Curious, where did those sets sell at? Were they a complete 8 car UP CoLA? Condition?

I remember seeing UP CoLA cars on the Bay early/summer last year, but they were 2 railed. Many went for reasonable prices-a few had a hard time reaching a $100. Some 3R truck swaps and you'd been in business.


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

I have notes on last year's sales, but they are not as detailed as some prior years -- sorry, but as I've purchased items I tend to scale back my detailed tracking of them.

There was one set sold at Stout Auctions, their search function isn't working, but it was Feb / March / April 2015. My notes say 8 cars price realized $1000.00. 

One set was 8 cars, including the flat observation, on private sale, sold for $900.00.

The third is noted as eBay, not car count, with a price realized of "under 1k".

Again, sorry for the lack of detail, but again once I pick them up I tend to note sales but not with the exacting detail I did/do for those sets I don't have. I do recall being a real unhappy camper with the rash of these that came up and their prices as they weren't around prior nor since, and the prices were well below what I paid.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

This thread needs an update.

Watched a 4 car set (3 car set & separate sale observation) sell on the bay-$1100+! Can't recall the exact number but I was blown away by the final bid. 

Some of these sets are getting really hard to find. I've been actively looking for another forum member now going on 5 months-no sign of these cars. The few that have surfaced have sold for astronomical numbers.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

One guy at York had three sets, 4 maybe 5 cars each. One NYC and I didn't pay attention to the other two. Price was 100-125 per car. Saw quite a few Empire State Express cars scattered around the fairgrounds.

Pete


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2016)

The ESE cars seem to be the easiest to find. I watch the 21" market on eBay daily and they are always listed. The other road names, well not so easy anymore.

I guess right now the UP's are extremely difficult to find. The Surfliners are also really tough to locate.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I was watching the ebay auction on the UP, and was ready to bid, but when it went over a thousand ($250) a car, my senses kick in, and I backed off. 

I am pretty sure the bidder is the same guy who paid over $4700 for the 8 car Santa fe Midnight set. After he won that auction at that price ( six months ago), the sets started coming out of the woodwork and the prices started dropping. One complete set just sold for $1,200.00. So waiting in this case would save you $3,500.00.

So I am hoping this will bring the UP 21" out of the closets and into my hands!!!


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Norton said:


> One guy at York had three sets, 4 maybe 5 cars each. One NYC and I didn't pay attention to the other two. Price was 100-125 per car. Saw quite a few Empire State Express cars scattered around the fairgrounds.
> 
> Pete


I saw a Santa Fe set, and found 3 car 20th century set that I had given up on . Not a lot of K-line at York.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It was probably the same guy (row near Grzyboskis). He was showing 3 20th Century cars but when I asked if he had more he thought 5 total. I later learned from Brian they were sold in 4 and 2 car sets so I am not sure how may he really had. The trouble with buying partial sets is finding the add on cars. Stay tuned.

Pete


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Yes Pete it was. The son was there but he wasn't sure if his Dad had 5 or 3. He only had 3, which was 3 more than I had!!!! I talked to the Dad and he had a complete set at home and these 3 were leftovers from buying ones, twos and sets to get the complete set. I have done that in the past. I just did it with the Santa Fe Black bonnet. I had 6 and 8 came up, so I brought the 8 and then sold my 6. 

I purchased the engines a year ago and was running them with the ese cars, but I am not impressed with the chrome cars and prefer the colorfully ones. So I sold my ese cars and I was getting ready to sell the engines.....


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Only 3 cars then. I think the price they told me was $500. I am glad I passed. Patience may have paid off. 

Pete


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Norton said:


> Only 3 cars then. I think the price they told me was $500. I am glad I passed. Patience may have paid off.
> 
> Pete


I got them for less, did you find them after York Pete?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I did but waiting for delivery. I don't count my chickens.
I stopped by the following day and was told they sold 30 minutes after I looked at them. They were not on my list initially and had already scored many of the items I was looking for. Sounds like you got a good deal.

Pete


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Norton said:


> I did but waiting for delivery. I don't count my chickens.
> I stopped by the following day and was told they sold 30 minutes after I looked at them. They were not on my list initially and had already scored many of the items I was looking for. Sounds like you got a good deal.
> 
> Pete


Pete, where did you find them? I am always looking for new sources.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2016)

I think you have to consider just how good the K-Line cars are. They sure have passed the test of time. 

About four years ago, I decided to convert much of my passenger car inventory to 21" K-Lines. It turned out to be a very good decision. Not only do they look good, they run equally as well.

I don't see the interest in K-Line passenger cars slowing down anytime soon.


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

These are becoming considerably more difficult to find on the whole, some sets the ESE cars come to mind are seemingly always for sale somewhere. Other sets that used to be around, even in a couple cars here or there have nearly vanished in the past year or so.

The UP set with the flat end observation as to my understanding always been extremely hard to come by, the flat end observation being the real killer. Reminds me of the high level Santa Fe cars, the transition cars were always the killer.

I hope a few more of these come loose this summer, I've got a couple more on my want list and just haven't seen them to buy, regardless of price. We'll see, it took four years to track down the GN Empire Builder, but less than a month for the California Zephyr, so it's all about right place, right time, with enough cash in hand.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I have some Golden State passenger cars about seven total that I bought off of dash. I did have a NYC Alco AA set, but I didn't like how noisy the motors were so I traded them for a Williams Rock Island Alco AA set.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

During my recent travels, I was able to fit in a visit to the Western Depot, just north of Sacramento. If you like K-Line, they have a lot of K-Line in their warehouse including several, not many, passenger sets. They have a lot of special run cars as well.

Very kind folks there and was a pleasure to meet the family. I was honored to get a special warehouse tour.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2016)

Good information, Todd.


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