# prewar Standard Gauge



## newB (Feb 3, 2011)

Prewar standard gauge seems to be a forgotten scale on this site. For those that don't know, 'standard' gauge came before 'O' gauge and for a while, both gauges were common. Standard gauge was discontinued around 1939 as steel shortages forced toy manufacturers to make cutbacks.

The photo is my American Flyer caboose. For comparison, there's a Marx crossing w/ bell (every 'O' scaler seems to own one) and an Atlas 'N' scale caboose.

The American Flyer is 14" long (not including the couplers) and weighs nearly 2 1/2 lbs.

Does anyone else here do Standard Gauge?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

There are a few that do, though you are right there is not a lot going on here in Standard gauge.
We don't even have a Standard gauge dedicated section? 

I just got done redoing all mine. 

Here,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=18964

I found that in a box I was going through, my Bro in law probably saved it from the dump he worked at. 
John won't answer my last post/question there.
I should have enlarged it so he would see it easier.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There were 2 very nice Standard Gauge layouts at the
Villages Train Show a couple months ago. One was quite
complicated and was running several trains at the same
time. It appeared to have some amount of automatic train
control.

Didn't meet any of the Standard Gauge men but there must
be an active group in mid or South Florida to have assembled
the many fine models represented.

Don


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I would love to do standard gauge but the same thing prevents me from doing it that did O, space. HO seems to be a good compromise in that the it is large enough to handle and the used market is affordable.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Standard Gauge is my favorite! I am not on the forum as much as I was right now, but I am a huge supporter!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

My Father in law has some Standard Guage, and some Buddy-L train stuff.


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

newB said:


> For those that don't know, 'standard' gauge came before 'O' gauge and for a while, both gauges were common.


The above statement is wrong. Lionel is the company that first produced Standard 
gauge trains. The line was introduced in 1906. However, Marklin introduce an expansion
of the already set gauges from 1-5 sometime around 1895. The new gauge was 0 or zero
gauge. But was often read as "O" gauge and that is what has stuck after all this time.

Pookybear


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## newB (Feb 3, 2011)

pookybear said:


> The above statement is wrong. Lionel is the company that first produced Standard
> gauge trains. The line was introduced in 1906. However, Marklin introduce an expansion
> of the already set gauges from 1-5 sometime around 1895. The new gauge was 0 or zero
> gauge. But was often read as "O" gauge and that is what has stuck after all this time.
> ...


pookybear,, your facts are correct to a point.

please note that...

lionel copied marklin's zero gauge rail spec but incorrectly interpreted the measurement as 'distance between the outer rails' when in reality it is 'distance between the centers of the rails'.

lionel manufactured his O (letter O) gauge track using these 'incorrect' measurements, and still does.

so lionel's O (letter O) gauge is different than marklin's zero gauge, and O gauge came later than zero gauge.

i stand by my original statement.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Is standard gauge the same as Garden Railroading scale? Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

G-Gauge and Standard Gauge are not the same.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

N scale is also known as OOO? Never heard that before. Ooo, baby!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

newB,

Thanks for the Standard Gauge post / pic / etc. Beautiful caboose!

I wish we had more Std. Gauge interest / activity here, but as mentioned above, not many of us have the needed real-estate.

Some incredible std tinplate out there. Wish I had one or two in my shelf collection.

Cheers,

TJ


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

newB said:


> pookybear,, your facts are correct to a point.
> 
> please note that...
> 
> ...


WOW!

What are you reading? Marklin's 0 gauge became the smallest gauge in Europe
copied by many. Even when Ives went to trains on track in 1901 they chose 
Marklin's 0 gauge. And trust me That is O gauge by size. It was not until 1915!!,
some books state 1913, that Lionel even started to make O gauge trains. They
were very late to the party. However, even using Ives as a maker, O gauge still started
before Standard gauge, 1906, by some 5 years. Once again, your original statement is 
wrong. And this new statement is well......

Pookybear


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

For some reason the multi-quote is not working so I copied & pasted manually the quotes in blue. 
( I know John it works for you, it has to be my computer, can't be the site. That goes for clicking forum home too and getting logged out) 

newB said, 
For those that don't know, 'standard' gauge came before 'O' gauge and for a while, both gauges were common. Standard gauge was discontinued around 1939 as steel shortages forced toy manufacturers to make cutbacks.

This would have been a correct statement if you had used the word, Lionel 'standard' gauge came before 'O' gauge.

Pook's right,
Marklin made the O in 1900. Also it was not the war that ended standard gauge from the market. Lionels standard gauge was started around 1906/07 there is confusion to the actual date. Standard Gauge had its heyday in the mid-1920's only to virtually disappear during great depression. (not by the war)
Lionels standard gauge was copied by at least four other train manufacturers. Ives in 1921, Boucher in 1922, Dorfan in 1922 & American Flyer in 1925. 

Ives filed for bankruptcy in 1928 and its offerings were off the market by 1932. American Flyer discontinued its Standard Gauge trains in 1932. Dorfan went out of business in 1934. Lionel discontinued Standard Gauge trains in 1940. Boucher, the last of the Standard/Wide Gauge manufacturers, folded in 1943. Note that Lionel just barely hung on in the 30's after the Great Depression. O then took over the train market after the 40's.
Lionel started their O in around 1913/15, there is confusion to when they started on the exact date.

newB said,
Lionel copied Marklin's zero gauge rail spec but incorrectly interpreted the measurement as 'distance between the outer rails' when in reality it is 'distance between the centers of the rails'.
Lionel manufactured his O (letter O) gauge track using these 'incorrect' measurements, and still does.

Historians disagreed on Lionel's reason for creating Standard Gauge, giving two stories. One story is that Lionel misread the specifications for Marklin's European Gauge 2, measuring the distance between the inside portion of the rails rather than between the centers of the rails as Märklin did, thus accidentally making a slightly larger and incompatible standard. The other story is that the change was a deliberate effort to lock out European competition by creating incompatible trains. While many believe the latter is more likely, since several U.S. companies such as Carlisle & Finch were producing trains to that standard, no definitive proof in favor of either theory has ever surfaced.

So Lionel might have deliberately made them that size on purpose, I believe the later.

Did you know,
Lionel's first train, the Electric Express, was not intended for sale to consumers, but rather, as a storefront display. Delivered in 1901, it operated on a brass track and was powered by a battery and a motor Cowen originally intended to use in an electric fan. Cowen hoped to use the public's fascination with railroads and electricity to capture the public's attention and direct it to the goods for sale. Members of the public started approaching store owners about buying the trains instead, prompting Lionel to begin making toy trains for the general public. Lionel ended up selling 12 examples of the Electric Express.
Lionel's earliest trains were larger than the sizes commonly available today, running on two-rail track with the rails 2⅞ inches apart. In 1906, Lionel began offering a three-rail track that simplified wiring of reverse loops and accessories. Its outer rails were 2⅛ inches apart, which did not match any of the existing standards that other manufacturers had been using since 1891.

A lot of this was copied and pasted, where did you get your facts from newB?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

eljefe said:


> N scale is also known as OOO? Never heard that before. Ooo, baby!
> 
> *** snip ***





tjcruiser said:


> Thanks for the Standard Gauge post / pic / etc. Beautiful caboose!
> 
> *** snip ***
> TJ





big ed said:


> For some reason the multi-quote is not working so I copied & pasted manually the quotes in blue.
> ( I know John it works for you, it has to be my computer, can't be the site. That goes for clicking forum home too and getting logged out)
> 
> *** snip ***


What can I tell you Ed, it really does work for everyone else, including me. If it were the site, I'd expect that I would have the issue.

Perhaps you have JAVA disabled or some other security software that is blocking things?


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

big ed said:


> For some reason the multi-quote is not working so I copied & pasted manually the quotes in blue.
> ( I know John it works for you, it has to be my computer, can't be the site. That goes for clicking forum home too and getting logged out)
> 
> newB said,
> ...


Thank you Ed,

A lot of good information there.

Pookybear


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

I think newB just mixed up Lionel misinterpreting the Marklin 2 gauge and 0 gauge.

Nevertheless, isn't American O gauge different from European? American is typically 1:48 scale but I think Europe uses 1:43.5.


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## newB (Feb 3, 2011)

pookybear, I was going to write down all the fact and figures (with sources) illustrating that O gauge (letter O) is different from zero gauge. The exercise here being to prove that while O is derived from zero, they are in fact different. But I figured that my efforts would be wasted as you'd simply attack me as you've done before.

I originally started this thread looking for someone (anyone) else that does prewar standard gauge, as this site does not have a standard gauge section. I didn't expect a spanish inquisition after I mentioned O gauge in my original post. The hostility exhibited makes me wish I had never even mentioned it.

I've always thought that discussing toy trains on forums such as this should bring out comradery and promote healthy discussions and constructive arguments. In my eyes, some of your recent posts haven't quite met those expectations.

Having said all that, I'd like to thank those prewar standard gauge fans that replied to my thread in a positive light. I hope to talk to you all again on some other forum, where I don't have to worry about what I say being aggressively challenged.

c'ya!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

newB said:


> pookybear, I was going to write down all the fact and figures (with sources) illustrating that O gauge (letter O) is different from zero gauge. The exercise here being to prove that while O is derived from zero, they are in fact different. But I figured that my efforts would be wasted as you'd simply attack me as you've done before.
> 
> I originally started this thread looking for someone (anyone) else that does prewar standard gauge, as this site does not have a standard gauge section. I didn't expect a spanish inquisition after I mentioned O gauge in my original post. The hostility exhibited makes me wish I had never even mentioned it.
> 
> ...


I hope you didn't take my reply as being "hostile"too? 

I can't talk for Pook, but I in no way meant to come across as hostile.
I thought you worded it wrong as Lionel made their standard before O.

I also don't think it was a mistake in Lionel reading the measurements, I think they did what they did on purpose. To try to get an edge on the market.
But that is my thoughts on the subject.

I meant no harm by what I posted, if I did offend you I am sorry. 
I meant no ill feelings to come from it.

How are you going to have "comradely and promote healthy discussions and constructive arguments" if you leave?
Stick around and argue your point.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

This is from the Wikipedia article about O gauge:

"While 1:48 is a very convenient scale for modeling using the Imperial system (a quarter-inch equals one scale foot), the discrepancy between O gauge in the United States and O gauge in Europe is attributed to Lionel misreading the original Märklin specifications."

I thought I'd heard this and didn't have a problem with newB's original statements. But then I couldn't find it again and only saw the references to Lionel "misreading" the 2 Gauge specifications to create Standard Gauge. Did Lionel do this twice?


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

NewB so called attacks are corrections. As other people come to this form looking
for answers and believe what is written down on these pages. Bold faced 
misinformation in your opening post needs to be pointed out. But if you think 
I attacked you, all I got to say is oh well on the matter. And yes an otherwise
fine thread has been destroyed by this going back and forth about a topic that
has nothing to do with Standard gauge at all. I do wonder why you mentioned 
"O" scale in the first place. 

eljefe I think the 1:43 comes in play with "scale" models as compared to "toys" trains
that all seem to be set in 1:48 for the wheel spacing. However, as we all know the
actual size is far from correct as most are undersized as far the bodies are 
concerned.

Pookybear


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