# Solder Rail Joints, or Not?



## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

Is this one of those questions that people just disagree on? 

I've been reading and also watching youtube vids, and it seems like one guy says solder your rail joints, and the next guy says never solder your rail joints. 

I'm about to be at the point where I have to decide for my layout... which FYI is Peco Code 83, on a plywood bench, with one inch of foam as a base on top of the plywood, and then a second inch of foam for about half the track (plus WS risers in places). I'm using WS foam roadbed. The layout is in a finished basement (playroom) in New York, north of NYC. 

What are your thoughts? Should I solder the joints?

Thanks,

Mark


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## I Am Fasha (Apr 2, 2013)

I have not started by layout, yet. But I do plan of soldering the joints. But I will not solder all of them. Recently a friend who has his track laid, and joints soldered, in his finished basement, added additional space heaters for the guest that would be coming by for the holidays. They were still running when we attended his January ops session. Trains were derailing everywhere!!!!

Come to find out, the rails will expand based on temperature and humidity... So he has made the necessary repairs and left some space between joints to allow for these changing conditions.


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

I had the same problem in a basement. The track was on cork roadbed, under it was Homasote and under that plywood. Good and solid roadbed. One Winter I went to the layout room and found about 20 feet of my soldered HO code 83 had buckled up about 2 inches above the cork road bed. It tore itself right off the ties. 
Now, as I plan my O scale layout, I am rather hesitant about soldering the joints again. 
I read an article years ago in MR about using outside rail jumpers with some expansion tolerance. I may go that way on the O track, rather than a direct rail-to-rail solder joint.


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## Lance Skene (Jan 6, 2014)

I wouldnt solder joints if the layout has a plywood base.... wood expands and contracts quite alot with temperature and humidity levels so anything attached to it needs to allow for that movement.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

We've built our layout primarily in 2x4 modules. Theres a gap where every module meets, and at the moment I've soldered pretty much all joins of flex track, except where it meets a turnout. Just in case I need to move something while installing under table switch machines or something


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## mrmtox (Aug 24, 2011)

If you're considering soldering for electrical continuity, why not do it the easy way. Put a section of track together without soldering. If it works fine leave it alone. I have an HO layout of over 110' of EZ track - nothing is soldered. Two heavy locos run just fine everywhere on the layout. Not soldering certainly makes alterations, repairs, extensions simple - nothing to tear apart. I did solder a lot of the flex track on my N scale layout - sorry I ever did it.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

^ is that DC or DCC?


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## mrmtox (Aug 24, 2011)

BROOX - I can run either DC or DCC on it. I'll run a DC train for awhile, then put it on the siding. Then run a DCC train for awhile. I have it designed so I can switch back and forth.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

mrmtox said:


> If you're considering soldering for electrical continuity, why not do it the easy way. Put a section of track together without soldering. If it works fine leave it alone. I have an HO layout of over 110' of EZ track - nothing is soldered. Two heavy locos run just fine everywhere on the layout. Not soldering certainly makes alterations, repairs, extensions simple - nothing to tear apart. I did solder a lot of the flex track on my N scale layout - sorry I ever did it.


I also have over 100' of EZ track on my layout in a heated garage. However, the heat fluctuates between 45 and 70 degrees, depending on whether or not I'm out there playing with my layout. It's also in Michigan, where the humidity goes up and down like a yo-yo, just like the temperatures.
NONE of my track has ever been soldered and I rarely have a derailment. I've always felt the secret is to make sure your track is properly aligned and kept clean. BTW, my layout is strictly DC and it works just fine.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

In my opinion, soldering your flex track should be on an 'as needed' basis.

If your joiners are tight, most of the time, that's all you need, 
but, temperature change can affect them also.

I found that the glue from ballasting seeped into some of
my joiners and blocked current flow. Soldering solved that.

I'd say, for most of your layout just use the joiners. But when
there is a problem, you can always go back and solder.

If you have a difficult to reach run of track you might consider
soldering there, or, perhaps, adding drops from each section
of flex.

Don


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

most of my layout is flex, and all flex joints are soldered, mostly because the joints are on curves, switches aren;t soldered.. no problem with expansion / contraction so far, but my layout is only just over a year old... plywood base, all on foam risers / inclines..


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Is it located in an area with constant temperature & humidity? It makes a difference.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Here is what ya have to look forward to when ya solder all your rail joints. This was a result of butting the rails together with no room for expansion. I had to file off about 1/16" to make this straight. The track was glued down, but the pressures broke that glue bond.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*rail joiners electrically. connected?*

Too have the best electrical continuity, It is in my opinion that solder jumpers of a short length. to each adjoining rail. Then spacing the rails a very short distant apart, maybe sufficient to take in account for metal expansion in an uncontrolled enviorment (basement).Then additional power(drop wires) may be added where necessary. So you shouldn't weather (paint) the rail until voltage drop is determined.
Some people have suggested "drop wires" every three feet.
You could solder power wires to the jumpers at the track joints that was mentioned early.
If you don't have your track laid yet, solder to the bottom of the rail. Good luck.
Regards, tr1


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## mrmtox (Aug 24, 2011)

I also was given the suggestion that I would need "drop wires" every three feet on my 110' layout. That would have been approximately 35 sets of drop wires. I decided to try it first the easy way - no solder, no drop wires, no connections between sets of rail joiners. To my pleasant surprise the layout works just fine without any of these electrical additions. Everyone's layout is different, that's part of the great fun of this. But I strongly suggest trying the easy, most simple things first. You can always add needed elements when and where required.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

looking at some of the photos on here, expansion joints wold be needed if track is laid directly on plywood / homasote, humidity and temperature .. affect the base...
on foam, especially with foam of one inch or more, is much more tolerant, especially with the semi flexible glues used for attaching the foam to the base, and track to the foam...
in general, i feel that flex track sections should be soldered together to give consistent radius, all else .. soldering turn outs, power drops, is personal preference, and can be done later, if needed ...
basically, whatever works for_ YOU_ 

...enjoy...


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## Lance Skene (Jan 6, 2014)

Such problems are not caused by the soldered joints.... they are a result of using plywood as a base, which will also affect anything else you try to glue to the plywood, and the thicker the plywood used the more expansion/contraction there will be. but you could use 1/2" styrofoam as a base and then set it on a plywood table... just dont glue it... the foam expands/contracts very little so the joints can then be soldered without issues, plus the soldered joints result in smoother operation overall and less electrical issues.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

WOW, this might turn into one of those Chevy-Ford or a Tastes Great-Less Filling thread!


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Lance Skene said:


> Such problems are not caused by the soldered joints.... they are a result of using plywood as a base, which will also affect anything else you try to glue to the plywood, and the thicker the plywood used the more expansion/contraction there will be. but you could use 1/2" styrofoam as a base and then set it on a plywood table... just dont glue it... the foam expands/contracts very little so the joints can then be soldered without issues, plus the soldered joints result in smoother operation overall and less electrical issues.


Have you actually done this yourself?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

this is getting interesting, 
just to clarify .. my layout, only a year old now, in a finished basement, does not have any track directly attached to plywood and / or homasote.. the small percentage at 'zero' level, maybe twenty feet, is cushioned by a 1/8" layer of closed cell foam, with flexible glue, there are virtually no nails at all anywhere, unless i forgot to remove some after the glue dried...
my test loop track, is the complete opposite, lol .. a circle of atlas c100 brass 18" radius track, three nails in each directly to 1/2" plywood, no glue at all, no soldering except for one power feed, no power drops ... I think i have 'most' of the joiners in there, and it works just fine as well...but no straights, or any real length of track
so, does this help??


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## Lance Skene (Jan 6, 2014)

Actually my entire layout is foam, the main base is 2" fiber/foam with styrofoam on top of that, in some areas its nearly 6" thick, its then covered with a very thin layer of drywall mud/cloth which is several years old now and there is no visable cracks at all, cork roadbed is glued to the surface and the flex track is glued to the cork and all joints are soldered. Basically I just followed intructions from the old guys at the hobby shop... and it seems to be working for me.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

mrmtox said:


> BROOX - I can run either DC or DCC on it. I'll run a DC train for awhile, then put it on the siding. Then run a DCC train for awhile. I have it designed so I can switch back and forth.


nice

i thought dcc would be too picky. you must have feeders and a bus?

edit

just read the rest of the thread, lucky you!


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## mrmtox (Aug 24, 2011)

BROOX: For clarification. I have about 110' of EZ track. I can and do run both DC and DCC on it, obviously not at the same time. I do not have any buss wires, soldered joints, drop wires etc. Only the track sections joined together by their attached joiners. The simpliest possible design. Everything runs smoothly, no power loss down track (measured) and no variablity in loco performance anywhere on the layout. All I can say is that it works for me.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

wvgca said:


> this is getting interesting,


It sure is. In my experience plywood is extremely stable. Unlike lumber that can and does change dimensionally with changes in humidity.
Metal on the other hand changes due to temperature, expanding as it warms, contracting as it cools.
Metal track securely, repeat securely, fastened to plywood, well the expansion has to go somewhere as evidenced in D&J RR photo.
I have noticed that this only oCcurs on straight sections, not on curves in both modeling and on prototypical RR. Thinking as track expands on curves it increases the radius??


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Yep, it's just like our waistline.  As it expands, the radius gets LARGER!


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## Ml-toys (Dec 19, 2013)

There are many variables regarding expansion/retraction.
Your climate can affect the wood causing expanding and rails nailed on can pop off plywood, 
But on foam climate would not have the same affect.
Temperature is a bigger factor regarding the metal rails. I worked as a sheet metal fabricator and can tell you temp makes a difference.
If its cold in the morning the metal is retracted/smaller. As the temp gets hotter it will expand and can cause warping.
So if you put your tracks down with tight joints at 60 degrees and then it gets to 90 there is a chance they will be forcing tighter together causing warping or popping.


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## I Am Fasha (Apr 2, 2013)

Ml-toys said:


> There are many variables regarding expansion/retraction.
> Your climate can affect the wood causing expanding and rails nailed on can pop off plywood,
> But on foam climate would not have the same affect.
> Temperature is a bigger factor regarding the metal rails. I worked as a sheet metal fabricator and can tell you temp makes a difference.
> ...


So, if what you say is true, and I don't doubt you, if I plan to build my layout in a outside storage building ( I do plan to have a window unit a/c and baseboard heater/s) am I better off to lay the track in the summer time?


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

If your planning on using flex track a unsoldered joint every other or perhaps every third piece should be enough.
I know the metal track will expand, I don't know exactly how much it will expand. It doesn't have to expand all that much to cause a problem. Look again at D&J's photo, a 1/16 of a inch gap solved his problem.


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## Ml-toys (Dec 19, 2013)

What i am saying is that temperature will affect the rails. Lay them when cold they can expand when they get hotter


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

Thanks for the replies, folks. This has been very helpful for me. I like the idea of keeping it simple and trying no soldering first. I will have 14 switch motors under the roadbed, accessible only from above, and I have this nagging fear that one will go bad and I have to get in there. If I just glue the track to the roadbed lightly with water-soluble glue, or use track nails, and don't solder the joints, it would be a lot easier to make such repairs if needed.

It's also just a lot easier to lay the track if I don't solder. 

FYI, the room rarely, if ever, gets below the high 50's, if that; it pretty much remains in the mid-60's year round, although sometimes it might get up to the low 70's. Humidity can be a little high in the summer and quite low in the winter, at times. I will leave small gaps, as suggested.

Thank you!

Mark


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## mrmtox (Aug 24, 2011)

If you go with the KISS plan I do suggest you use a good quality, powerful power source. You never mentioned whether you were planning on DC or DCC. For DC I use an MRC260 Tech4. Actually I use that model on all my DC tracks. It produces a lot of power and you can monitor the power draw from the meter on the instrument face - that may be one reason why I do not have any voltage drops a long way down track. Just a thought.


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## Lance Skene (Jan 6, 2014)

fyi... I supervise a 60,000sq ft metal fab shop so calculating thermal expansion is something I have some experience with...

The rate of thermal expansion of steel is known to be .000016 of one inch per one inch per one degree of fahrenheit temperature change, so a 36" piece of steel rail will expand 0.00058 for every one degree fahrenheit changed, for a 36" piece of flex track to expand 1/32 of one inch(half of D&Js photo) the temperature would need to rise approx 60 degrees F above normal room temperature. 

I dont happen to know the thermal expansion rate of a piece of plywood, maybe more maybe less, but the old pro at the hobby shop specifically told me not to attach my track to it for this very problem, his advice was to use a foam base. 

Regardless of which material expands/contracts more its seems that attaching the track directly to the plywood is what actually creates the problem, so it seems you should not solder the joints if your working directly on a plywood layout.

Be interesting to hear from someone that has glued thin foam to plywood and then glued the track to the foam, would that be enough to allow soldering the joints?:dunno:


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## Sasha (Jul 8, 2012)

Right now, we have two circles of flex track _nailed_ to 1" MDF and every joint (staggered) is soldered. So far, no problems.

- Dad


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## Brian (Jan 22, 2014)

I certainly don't want to start any arguments about this but, if memory serves me correctly, the way plywood is laminated it doesn't expand or contract. each layer is layed down with the grain at 90 degrees to each other. solid wood expands greater with the grain and not so much cross grain therefore in theory the alternating grain holds the other from moving. I used to own a stair company and when we built large circular staircases we would use plywood for just that reason and then lay veneer over the plywood. In this case I would have to think it is all the track that is moving


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

I would agree that plywood does not expand or contract as much as solid lumber but in building stairs I'm sure you used 5/8 or even 3/4 with I would guess at 8 plys. But also they are in a constant heated/conditioned home. A basement or garage can throw that into a whole different set of problems. I have put up pressure treated fences with no gap between pickets but a week later there is a perfect 16d, 1/4" gap between each one. That is how fences of all type wood is put up down here. The cross grain reduction is that much. If you have plywood that has been stored or kept in a low humidity area long enough for it to dry out then move it to a more humid area it will expand in both directions more than you think. 
My layout is 1/4 plywood with 1 inch foam over it with all the joints except turnouts soldered and have not had any problems but mine is not one to measure by either because it is in the house under heat/air conditioned control.


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## Lance Skene (Jan 6, 2014)

Just for the record I dont believe Ive read, or posted anything, that I consider to be anything more than a healthy debate

Any and all materials are affected by thermal expansion, but at differant rates, even the glue used to laminate the plywood. Wood, plywood, any many other materials also expand/contract with humidity levels where as steel and foam do not. I just did a little research online and found that changes in humidity affect plywood far more than the temperature does, seems the thermal expansion of plywood is not really much differant than the rails... however the natural drying of plywood over time can shrink a 6 foot strip of 3/4" plywood as much as 0.02 of an inch, which is nearly twice the thermal expansion of a steel rail 36" in length over a 60 degree temp swing.

So anyway.. back to the point of the discussion.. everyone here seems to agree that soldering the joints can cause problems, even if not for the same reasons... however the problems seem to appear only on layouts where the track is directly attached to a plywood base... Ive not used plywood nor have I had any problems, all joints are soldered, no drop wires or jumpers have been used, and just personal preferance I like how quietly the trains can pass over the soldered and sanded joints.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Avoid conductivity issuse's in the future?*

leave room for expansion with the temperature fluctuations, and solder drop wires(+)&(-)
to both rails to minimize voltage drop. It's really how the train performs, too insure good performance through the years I suggest to solder sooner rather than later. Then your able too weather your rails for added realism if you, so desire.
Regards,tr1


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## irishthump (Jul 1, 2013)

Lance Skene said:


> Be interesting to hear from someone that has glued thin foam to plywood and then glued the track to the foam, would that be enough to allow soldering the joints?:dunno:



I think my layout may qualify...

My layout is small by your standards, but it is 17ft x 6 built on 1/2" ply baseboards with a softwood frame. The ply is covered with 1/4" foam floor underlay glued directly to the baseboard with the track layed over that. 
The layout is in a poorly insulated attic space and I experience a fair amount of temperature fluctuation. Being in Ireland the fluctuations are not too extreme but I've noticed a fair bit of movement in the baseboards. 
Wiring-wise I have feeders soldered to every individual piece of flextrack which results in feeders every 3 feet or so. I did not solder the joints between these lengths.
I have soldered rail joints when attaching turnouts to longer lengths of rail and also when joining smaller setrack lengths.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*garenteed rail continuity through time*

Great advice. too follow, However, I think it maybe best to solder sooner rather than later,
that way, you can go ahead and weather the rails & ties. Later on it may be difficult to remove the paint and solder droppers if the need arises. 
Regards,
tr1


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