# F3 #2343 1952 Running Direction



## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

I have Lionel F3 # 2343 duel motors. When I place it on the track the engine runs faster backwards and slower forward. Any idea why this engine operates this way? What I do to fix this problem.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Not sure, but to start, I would clean up the loco, wheels, pick up rollers etc, oil all moving parts. Check the worm gears to see if there worn or a bearing has too much play. Hopefully someone familiar with the problem will chime in. Do both motors when run off the track look to run at the same speed? I know the book says they both have to be synchronized, but I cant see that being the problem or it would affect both directions.


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## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

Will do and post the results. Thanks for your help.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Good points, above. Worm gears and thrust brgs can give different performance fwd/reverse. Clean, lube, etc.


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## namvet67 (Dec 7, 2013)

Check your side to side wheel/axle play in your trucks. When they have been run in only one direction the axle bearings tend to wear out on that side. The wheels might be rubbing against the truck housing when going forward. When going forward the wheels/axles bear on the right side bearings. When going backwards they shift a little to the left on the better bearings. If this is the case the bearings can be adjusted to take out some the play.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You need to remove the motor from the gearbox to lube this loco. The worm gears and bearings are inside the gearbox and you must get at them to properly lube them. I recommend motor oil, 5W-20 is good. I have a 2353 that I have had for 40 years. I lubed it with motor oil many years ago, and it still runs just fine. I have taken it apart to check the lube in the gearboxes and it is well lubed. Do not use Lionel Lube, 3 in 1 oil, light machine oil, sewing machine oil, white lithium grease, WD-40, as they all evaporate and leave a gummy mess or hard clay. There are man who recommend Lucas Red n Tacky, but I am skeptical because Lucas doesn't publish data giving the vapor pressure. The vapor pressure of motor oil at 100 C is 10^-2 torr. A torr is a millimeter of mercury. At room temperature, the vapor pressure of motor oil is about 10^-5 torr which is extremely low. Motor oil evaporates very slowly and will last more than 35 years.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Many times, the armature play will cause speed differences in one direction. The motor armature is forced up or down for different directions.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

GRJ, this is an F-3 diesel. The motor has two spur gears on it that engage a spur gear on the shaft in the gearbox. The gearbox shaft has worm gears on each end. You must be thinking about Alco diesels. The motor shaft on an F-3 diesel is horizontal.


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## rlplionel (Dec 5, 2013)

namvet67 said:


> When they have been run in only one direction the axle bearings tend to wear out on that side.


As alluded to in the above post, engines such as this were mainly operated in one direction. 

The easiest "fix," if you have a non-powered A-unit, is to put it on the front of the train and let the powered A-unit run backwards behind it. Problem solved, until the parts start wearing out from backwards running. :laugh:


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I would not run this loco until the problem is fixed. It sounds like it might be poor lubrication or no lubrication. If the lubrication is not good, the engine bearings & gears may wear rapidly. 

"When they have been run in only one direction the axle bearings tend to wear out on that side." I think wear of the axle bearings is indicative of poor lubrication.


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## Dano (Aug 26, 2012)

servoguy said:


> GRJ, this is an F-3 diesel. The motor has two spur gears on it that engage a spur gear on the shaft in the gearbox. The gearbox shaft has worm gears on each end. You must be thinking about Alco diesels. The motor shaft on an F-3 diesel is horizontal.


Does not matter.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Dano, it matters a lot. There is no thrust on the armature of a 2343 diesel. There is a lot of thrust on the armature of a diesel with a vertical shaft motor that has a worm gear on the end of the armature shaft.


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## Dano (Aug 26, 2012)

Not saying this is the problem but I believe with a gear on each end it has twice the forces working on it horizontally. Or,
the same amount of force halved between the two gears. The mathematicians can work out the correct answer!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Dano, I don't know what you are talking about. The motor armature shaft does not have any thrust applied to it because the gear on the end is a spur gear and not a worm gear. The shaft in the gearbox that is driven by the motor has two worm gears on it, one on each end. This shaft will definitely have thrust loads, but that doesn't mean it will "twice the forces working on it horizontally."


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## Dano (Aug 26, 2012)

Gotcha! Okay, the force is vertical opposite the gear which would not be much different no matter reverse or forward.


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## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

I spent most of night cleaning and lubing my engine. You guys were right, I had grease so hard I had to almost chisel it out. I guess the gunk was messing things up. Once I removed the crap and just used motor oil to lube it, my engine now runs like a scalded dog in both directions!!!! I want to thank everyone for your expert advice in helping me get my F3 up and running again. I could not have got it going without your help. Thanks all again. I'm very happy!!!!!!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

WildcatRR, congratulations on moving a few steps forward. A 2343 is not easy to service, and many folks try to do it without disassembling the gearbox and motor, so the gearbox never gets lubed. 

I bought a 2343 a few years ago, and the gearboxes were full of concrete. That is why I don't use grease and why I advise using motor oil.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, I look for locos with problems. If the wheels don't turn, it is sometimes possible to buy the loco cheap.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wildcat, good job! A little cleaning goes a long way! That stuff does get like concrete. And the oil works.


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## namvet67 (Dec 7, 2013)

Axle bearings can be adjusted for wear. EZ fix


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

WildcatRR said:


> I spent most of night cleaning and lubing my engine. You guys were right, I had grease so hard I had to almost chisel it out. I guess the gunk was messing things up. Once I removed the crap and just used motor oil to lube it, my engine now runs like a scalded dog in both directions!!!! I want to thank everyone for your expert advice in helping me get my F3 up and running again. I could not have got it going without your help. Thanks all again. I'm very happy!!!!!!


Every engine like a good lube job! 

Glad she's running smoothly!


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

In the future, hardware store naphtha will soften and dissolve old, hardened grease so you don't need to 'chisel' it out.

Larry


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Oil, brake clean, and WD-40 will also soften old grease. In fact, if there isn't too much hardened grease, just put oil on it and it will turn back into grease, and you can forget about all the effort of cleaning it off.


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