# My spaghetti adventure



## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

I'm very new to this hobby, or at least born again to it after owning several DC sets when I was a kid 40 years ago. I've posted several threads asking questions but I decided to start a thread dedicated to just showing off my journey.

Recently I had a room become available over my garage. It had been used for other things, but when it was emptied about a month ago I decided it was time to dive into model trains. It's roughly 10'x20' so I figured I could eventually have table surface going down both sides and then cross in front of the window. The crossing table top would definitely be set about 3' from the window and may even be removable, but at the very least I'd be able to crawl under it.

Here's the empty room.










My first goal (after reading a lot and watching a LOT of YouTube videos) was just to set up tables on one side and then play with a test track just to get to know DCC a little and how a lot of this stuff works. Some of the videos suggested the table be higher than desk level, which made sense, so I decided on 42" to the top of a 3/4" thick foam board. Due to that height I could only reach the back of the table if it were a max of 36' deep. And due to where the stairs are I decided to keep the total length on that side to 16'. Two 8'x3' tables would need to be built.

Here's the first table.









And also because of where the stairs are which come up to this room I didn't want a corner of the table sticking out right where people would walk by. At 42" tall it would poke right in the side of the stomach and could hurt. A rounded corner would help. 









So here's my "finished" tables. I ended up making one more significant change to them.









Because of what this room previously was used for it has some nice track lighting that I'd installed years ago and I've pointed a lot of them to the tables. I can easily buy a few more light fixtures and have more light whenever I need it.

Pictures of track and train on the table to come.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

In another thread I mentioned that I'd bought a co-worker's old N scale train set which included a DC controller, track, a diesel Santa Fe, and about a dozen cars. It was a good deal! The track included lots of variety including some flex, curves, turn outs (both manual and powered), straight pieces, etc.

The first thing I did was unpack it and organize the track, clean most of it, and then put together a small oval to break in my new steam locomotive. 









I ran it for about a half hour each direction before deciding to expand the track and add some turn outs.

Here's the controller, some curves I hadn't used, pieces of a Woodland Scenics 2% incline set that I got on a whim just because I'd seen it in a video and wanted to do some tests, and the tackle box all his stuff came in.









Here's a blurry picture of most of the track laid out and organized by type and length. It's a screen grab of a video.









And a close up of a pile of 18" radius curve pieces. 









So much potential with all this. 

When I was at this stage I'd already ordered my DCC controller and a pack of flex track. The spaghetti is yet to even be installed. A few more updates to this thread before I get to the present situation.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Won't know how far along you are till you post all the pics, but before you get too far, I would paint the ceiling and walls above the platform sky blue. I wish I had done that before I got too far along on my layout.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Lehigh74 said:


> Won't know how far along you are till you post all the pics, but before you get too far, I would paint the ceiling and walls above the platform sky blue. I wish I had done that before I got too far along on my layout.


That's part of my long term, maybe, someday perhaps, plan. If I ever expand from just these two tables and build around the other two walls I'll definitely paint a sky on the walls and ceiling. The tables are screwed to the walls but can easily be unscrewed and moved to give access for painting.

It's possible I'll only ever have railroad on these two tables, on bare foam boards and bare Woodland Scenics ramps and risers. Unlikely, but possible.

But good tip! If it were a little different you may have saved me a TON of headache!


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## The Kid Inside (Feb 29, 2020)

Mushtang said:


> I'm very new to this hobby, or at least born again to it after owning several DC sets when I was a kid 40 years ago. I've posted several threads asking questions but I decided to start a thread dedicated to just showing off my journey.
> 
> Recently I had a room become available over my garage. It had been used for other things, but when it was emptied about a month ago I decided it was time to dive into model trains. It's roughly 10'x20' so I figured I could eventually have table surface going down both sides and then cross in front of the window. The crossing table top would definitely be set about 3' from the window and may even be removable, but at the very least I'd be able to crawl under it.
> 
> ...


I'm new too. Can I ask, what benefits using the foam gives?


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Mushtang, looks like a great room for building a model railroad in. Looking forward to watching your build progress.



The Kid Inside said:


> Can I ask, what benefits using the foam gives?


The primary benefit of using foam under your track is that it’s relatively easy to carve down into it to form depressions, ditches, rivers, and other landscape features below your track grade. In my opinion, if you don’t plan to carve down into it, it’s better to use plywood sub-roadbed.

Foam works great for building up land forms (mountains, hills, cliffs, etc.) because it light weight, stiff, relatively strong, and easy to shape.


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## OkiPirate (Sep 10, 2020)

Mushtang, looking good! I'm also using a room over my garage and it looks exactly like your's, even down to the slanted ceiling on each side and window at the far wall. I'll also be using the same leftside wall and corner, and a 16' table.

Looking forward to watching your progress.

I'll have to get a thread going once I start on the table. Oh, and I have that same Railpower 1370 unit from my son's old train set lol. Might have to find a secondary use for it, for old time sake.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

The Kid Inside said:


> I'm new too. Can I ask, what benefits using the foam gives?


Two things in addition to what Mark said:

1) Sound reduction. Train track laid directly on a plywood table will make some amount of noise. A 3/4" foam sheet will result in much less noise. Add even more and you get other benefits.

2) The foam gives you a surface to pin things into. From what I've seen online you pin the styrofoam inclines into place with long T pins, which isn't possible to do on plywood but easy to do on foam. That lets you easily move the inclines as you build. You may have to scoot one part of it over half an inch, so you remove the pin, move it, and pin it back. Once you're 100% you can glue the inclines and other foam (risers, mountains, etc) in place and remove all the pins.

Mine may have pins in it for quite a while since it's highly likely I'll want a completely different layout on those tables if I eventually expand. Or maybe I'll eventually decide not to expand and just glue them on that day. We'll see what happens.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

OkiPirate said:


> Mushtang, looking good! I'm also using a room over my garage and it looks exactly like your's, even down to the slanted ceiling on each side and window at the far wall. I'll also be using the same leftside wall and corner, and a 16' table.


Put track lighting in the ceiling if you haven't already. If you have the single fixture with two bulbs like I used to have you'll definitely need more light. This room screams for it.



> I'll have to get a thread going once I start on the table.


Yes please, with lots of pictures!


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

This is the "test track" I expanded to after the small oval was used to break in the locomotive. This track was created so I could see how well a big sample of the old track I owned worked and how the new cars I'd just gotten looked. Unfortunately the caboose I got was damaged and I have to exchange it, so I used a caboose from the set I got from my coworker (which I got along with all the track). 

Also, I don't remember if I was using the DCC controller by this time or not. I do know that later I was programming the locomotive and managed to get the speed of the steam pistons to match the movement but in this video they're way off. The controller is off to the right of the screen. 

Finally, in this video you can see a small gap between the tables. I screwed the tables to the wall studs and then screwed them together. Apparently the wall isn't straight and so I needed to screw the tables together first and then the wall. I recently fixed that.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

I'm going to nearly duplicate the next couple of posts from some I made in another thread, just for continuity here. I'd like to come back to this thread and see my main steps in one place and that other thread will soon drift away.

So now that I am satisfied with how things are working I'd like to try putting together a more complex track so the train does more than just go round and round a long oval. I started simple and came up with a schematic (next post) and then drew up a version I could be happy with in SCARM (post after that).


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Here's my plan, schematic only. There are two main loops which travel nearly all the way across the 16' surface. Opposite ends are elevated so they will cross over each other and not be as boring as this looks in the image.

There's also two transfer paths so a train can move back and forth between the loops as needed, or if I want to run two trains at the same time they can remain completely separated on the different loops.

And finally I will have two auto reversing loops within each loop so that I can change the direction that a train goes around the track. Each track will have only one AR loop but they're in opposite directions, so a train may have to switch loops in order to turn around and then switch back to the loop it was on.

I've drawn this out in SCARM but the actual layout looks nothing like this so it's much more difficult to follow, but that's what my thinking was when I first sketched it out on paper. I can post my layout here from one of the programs once I get one with the correct track radius'.

There will probably be a few spurs as well so I can park cars off the track. I'm not going to have a yard with multiple spurs at this time. The room offers the possibility for additional tables and if I expand someday I'll definitely have a working yard.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Here's the SCARM export JPG. As I said, it's hard to tell by looking at this what lines are the transfers, which are the reverse loops, and which are part of the large loops. Also, there are two spurs here that are not shown on the schematic above. 

Feel free to criticize, make helpful suggestions, or anything else. It's a first attempt and I'm sure there's plenty of room for improvement. You guys probably see problems here that I wouldn't realize is an issue until I get it installed and something wasn't working well.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

I've ordered some curve track to be able to do this, purchased a bunch more of the foam inclines and risers, pins, etc. Somewhere along the line I decided I wished I'd gotten 2" thick foam instead of the 3/4", so why not add a layer of 2" and have both?

The track and everything else needed to come off to get it out of the way for the new design (whenever I finalize it) so this was a good incentive to clean it all off. While I had everything off I also unscrewed the tables from the wall to fix the gap I mentioned in post number 10 above. 

Now the tables are secured together and secured to the wall again, the thick foam is on, and I'm going to spend time this weekend learning AnyRail and try to lay out my system in that software package. Hopefully by late weekend I'll be able to start laying track.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Looking good so far and your doing it right by testing things out.
Going to be an interesting thread to follow. 
Keep us posted on progress.

Magic


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good move in doing some additional planning, you can get pretty close with the track planning software, but there will still be adjustments. That's more sure if you're using flex track, the track planning software will let you do anything, even if it doesn't make sense.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

In looking at my schematic above, and sketches here at my desk, I realized that each of the Xfer paths would also require an auto reversing controller for a total of 4 of those and not just two like I'd planned. This realization came as I was re-routing the schematic so my plan for a rail on top of another rail along the back wall could work easier.

Instead, I came up with this slightly different version.










So in this schematic the right side of the diagram is elevated to 2" and the left side is ground level. On the table one of the loops will be turned around so that the Xfer lines will be stretched across the back wall, one at 0" all the way down and the other at 2" all the way down.

Another thing that popped out at me after looking over this new one is the Xfer line on the right is almost not needed. If that line were removed completely a train could still end up going both directions around both loops, but with it in place it will allow two trains to transfer at the same time so I'm keeping it.

The auto reversing tracks will be tricky to add and keep them long enough. But as I understand it that section only has to be long enough to contain all the electric parts of a single train, right? As in, the Locomotive and the Tender only. So if none of my cars have lighting or require power they can roll along and not cause electrical shorts no matter where they are. 

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. It's MUCH easier to change it now. Haha.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

You actually only need 2 auto reversers with either your original track plan or with your new one. With the original plan, you would have the two loops have opposite polarity and with the later plan, both loops have the same polarity.

Regarding the length of the reversing sections, yes, you technically only need them to be as long as the electrically active portions of your train. However, I would caution you that you may eventually want a lighted passenger train to run on your layout. They add another level of interest that many of us like to have on our layouts. As you've said before, I realize this may be a temporary track plan, so it may not matter to you.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The test video.........looks to run nice.
That is N scale? What manufacturer made the locomotive? Do they have an on/off switch for the sound?
Too bad smoke wasn't pouring out the stack.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> You actually only need 2 auto reversers with either your original track plan or with your new one. With the original plan, you would have the two loops have opposite polarity and with the later plan, both loops have the same polarity.
> 
> Regarding the length of the reversing sections, yes, you technically only need them to be as long as the electrically active portions of your train. However, I would caution you that you may eventually want a lighted passenger train to run on your layout. They add another level of interest that many of us like to have on our layouts. As you've said before, I realize this may be a temporary track plan, so it may not matter to you.


YES! I see it now! Okay, that makes sense. I have to start looking at these things the right way. I'm learning. That helps, but I'm not sure I can do my over-under plan on the back of the table unless I do the new plan anyway. I'm still glad that I learned something!!

This is why I keep posting here, because folks are so helpful. Someday I'll be able to return the favor and help others when they have questions. 

I might do passenger trains later... but as you said that I said it will likely be after I redo it all anyway. So I'm still cool with the shorter AR segments.

Thanks again!!!


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Big Ed said:


> The test video.........looks to run nice.
> That is N scale? What manufacturer made the locomotive? Do they have an on/off switch for the sound?
> Too bad smoke wasn't pouring out the stack.


Thanks! Yes, I like the way it runs too. It's even better now that I've made some adjustments to the programming via the DecoderPro software.






Bachmann N Scale 2-8-0 Consolidation Steam Locomotive, Norfolk & Western No. 722, DCC Sound Value


Bachmann N Scale 2-8-0 Consolidation Steam Locomotive, Norfolk & Western No. 722, DCC Sound Value.N scale modelers can now enjoy the sounds of this workhorse with a new DCC sound-equipped Consolidation that includes Bachmann's Sound Value SoundTraxx® steam package. 51353.




www.micromark.com





It's N Scale. The sound can be turned off on the DCC controller. I've done that several times because even though the sound is very cool there's something about the sound of wheels rolling down a track that's just soothing.

There's no smoke on this one. I made the conscious decision to avoid getting one that could "smoke" if you added drops of the smoke liquid (no idea if that's even available on N Scale) after I had a conversation with the owner of a local shop. He explained to me that the smoke that goes out of the train looks great, but it has to go somewhere and eventually it ALL settles down on your layout. If you use smoke a lot then eventually you'll have a thin coating of that liquid covering every building, car, train, and most importantly it will land on the track. He only uses it on his display when asked to because he got tired of the results. He may have been over stating the issue, I have no idea. Seemed reasonable at the time. But those smoke drops never really looked right to me anyway because there's just not enough smoke coming out the top so I decided not to bother.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

I know, it’s only Rock’n Roll...


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

So last night I watched a few YouTube videos on how to use AnyRail and I got started inputting my new track idea. Unfortunately I ran out of available track for the free version - you only get 50 pieces I think. So I changed out all the small curve pieces to flex, and I changed out all places where I had multiple flex track end to end and made pieces of flex that were well over 100 inches where I needed. It didn't need to be an accurate layout as far as pieces, only the route. But... I still couldn't finish it.

Here's what I ended up with. It's mostly finished. I know where to connect the open sections so this will be enough to let me put track to table. 

The longer straight runs (first four from the bottom) will all be flex track and will almost certainly be much more curvy to help break up the monotony. Maybe I'll leave one straight, not sure. 

The two straight runs on the top will be routed with one over the other. I did a test in AnyRail of having them directly on top of each other. There may be a better way to do it than I tried but what I did just didn't look right in the 3D view and would have been confusing in the 2D so I'm showing them very close here (the "spurs" on the top left and top right connect as shown in the second image below this one). So here's the 50 piece version of my Spaghetti Track:










The AnyRail program is $60 and even though I could get it to finish this would I use it now that my layout is this far along? Do I need it to continue? Definitely will be able to use it for my next phase with new tables and a much larger railroad but for now I really don't think I need to spend the money. There's plenty of upcoming expenses for additional turn outs and other track that I'll need. 

So instead, just to get an image that I can work from and keep everything straight in my head, I connected the gaps with the Paint program.










Please excuse the crudity of this edit, I didn't have time to draft it to high accuracy.

I believe that my next step is to take my foam inclines and risers, lots of T pins, and start laying track onto my table. Hooray!!

As always I welcome suggestions, criticisms, hints, insults, or whatever.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I didn't know that they offered sound etc for N scale.
But I really have not looked at buying any N, my little N table is leaning against the basement wall and the spiders have been playing with it. 
Do they sell smokers too in N? ( edit; I see you don't know, maybe others do?)
I don't know about how true it is that the smoke messes up your room and layout.
Smoke fluid consists of Glycerine (spelled either with an E on the end or no E ) I like the E, and or Propylene Glycol, Both which people drink everyday in their food products. And is in other products they use. 
Depending on the condition of his store I would bet that something other then smoke was falling on it.
Smoke would look nice along with all the noise. And synchronized puffs of smoke to match the locomotive speed would be better.
John made one for O scale, The Super-Chuffer Smoke & Lighting Enhancement for...

Yes, start laying all ready.
I like to see Other people working.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Big Ed said:


> I don't know about how true it is that the smoke messes up your room and layout.
> Smoke fluid consists of Glycerine (spelled either with an E on the end or no E ) I like the E, and or Propylene Glycol, Both which people drink everyday in their food products. And is in other products they use.
> Depending on the condition of his store I would bet that something other then smoke was falling on it.


It's possible, I wouldn't even begin to know since I have zero experience with the smoke. I'd think that he was talking about more than just his store, and he wouldn't tell me the problem with it if it weren't true because he'd want to sell some to me. Start a new thread about it, I'd like to have a lot of people give feedback and learn the truth. 

When I went into his store for the first time I was only thinking about starting with trains, and only thinking about N scale but wasn't sold on either one. They used to sell N years ago but stopped because of a lack of N scale business. They sell HO and larger, and a LOT of O scale. He demonstrated some O scale locomotives with sound and I was instantly deciding that I definitely wanted to get a train with sounds!!! He told me that it wasn't available in N so I decided I'd have to go with HO scale. At home later with my Google search I realized he'd been out of the N business too long and hadn't kept up. So that day I ordered my N scale steam loco with sound.

If he didn't know N scale came with sound he probably was wrong about the smoke liquid making trouble.




> Yes, start laying all ready. I like to see Other people working.


I've started on the left hand side curves. I'll post a few pictures before I have to leave in the next hour for a family thing.

Having never done this before, and not being able to print to full scale and use it as a template, I'm winging it. As long as it all works this will be fine. I'm definitely going to have to find some videos on cutting/splicing the foam riser where there's a turn out elevated on risers and the squared ends of the foam don't really play nice. I probably need to get some 2" deep solid foam and cut the shapes of risers out of that.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Here's what I've done so far this morning. I guess because I didn't use the exact track pieces in AnyRail that I'm using on the table (substituting to long flex to cut down on the number of pieces used) I'm already seeing differences in what I'm able to do vs what I have on my AnyRail layout. But that's okay with me! As long as I get a working railroad. Added curves and angles will only help it look better I think. 

The track I've laid out so far will be elevated on 2" risers. I have some, I'll need to get more. So far I don't know how far to keep laying out track on the surface before I mark the location and start pinning the risers in place and the track on top. Any suggestions on the order this happens would definitely be appreciated.

To the right of the turnout on the bottom of the picture the decline begins, so I haven't connected anything there yet. Also the run along the back will be elevated the entire way, so I need to construct the rectangular tunnel. Still haven't decided if I want windows on it or not. I'll definitely construct it in 2' sections that won't be glued down so I can pull a section out if I need to access the track, a train, or whatever. Leftover 3/4" foam from the table top should be plenty sturdy for that. I'll have to pick up a low temp glue gun and glue sticks for that I guess. 

I'm done working on it for at least the next 10 hours, dangit, so plenty of time for people to let me know how to proceed with the foam.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Tonight I laid down the first loop with track and it is definitely taking on a non-boring shape. I also cut a piece of track for the first time, to get a smaller piece of flex track to fit. I don't know why this was such a difficult thing to do but it was almost like I was wasting a piece of track. Obviously I wasn't, but it was a weird negative feeling doing that. I'd gotten some track cutters from online and they work great. Here's the table with Loop 1 of my spaghetti layout in place. Note that the reversing track is not connected. I ordered the two automatic reversing controls today so they should arrive next week.









After connecting all the track I decided that before I continued with anything else I should test it while it's flat. Running my locomotive around it did indeed turn up a couple of issues. First there was a rail joiner that wasn't connecting correctly and when the locomotive passed over that connection it stopped. After fixing that issue it stopped on a turnout with a fault error showing on the controller. I cleaned the rail surface of the turn out and checked all the connections and whatever was wrong went away and all was working. The locomotive ran around that loop about 10 times before I turned if off for the night.











I'm still not sure if I should mark the track onto the table top foam and remove this loop, or leave it on and go ahead and try and lift it onto the risers and inclines, or what the next step should be. Any suggestions???

I think I did answer one question regarding the turn outs and foam. It didn't occur to me earlier that because this is N scale the foam would be wider than the entire turn out. I still have to decide the best way to have the turned out foam riser meet the main line. I'm sure cutting it at an angle is the only good way to do it. Maybe a small wedge cut from a 2" thick sheet would work too. I can't have track suspended over a gap like this.










So any suggestions on what I should do next would be great.
Mark track location on my table top, remove track, and pin down the risers and inclines?
Leave the track and connect the second loop and everything else?
Build the tunnel for the back edge?
Something else?


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

I think that the track is looking awesome !! I have recently just started a smaller HO scale layout and can easily see how much more track you are able to have with the N scale. Like you said earlier, I will be learning from you as you go. Keep up the great work and posts please ! Gary from Halifax


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

In general, you want to mock up where all the track will go before you start nailing stuff down. I'm at that stage now. I have all the elevated sections cut to size, next I'll trace where they are on the main platform and then I'll be removing all of these temporarily to lay the main level track. The main level track is already positioned under these elevated sections in a mock-up form so I could determine the layout of the elevated section. Obviously, I'll also lose the foam blocks for the real supports when I put this back up.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I've never used the foam riser method, so I'm not much help for how best to form it. I agree with you that you don't want the gap that you have now. I'd try cutting it at an angle to get a better joint or maybe it can be bent a little better and then pinned riser to riser at the joint.


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

Wish That I had the space he has though, can’t wait to watch it progress !


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Bonus game in today's post! Here in the Spaghetti thread you can play Spot The Geddy. There is only one.

As mentioned in the past my plan is to have a flat tunnel along the back wall with one track going through it and another track above it. I'd considered making windows in the lower track but after seeing the tunnels in place I think I'll leave the walls solid and just let the train disappear for a little while. A noon trip to HobbyTown to pick up a low temperature glue gun and I was all set to start construction. They didn't have a hot wire foam cutter in stock so I decided to use a steak knife and it turned out okay. There are rough edges but using a three foot aluminum angle as a straight edge made for a decent cut and I was satisfied. 

My first attempt didn't turn out too well for various reasons but I figured out how to do it right. One thing that I failed to consider with my planning was leaving a 2" inside height in the tunnel, made with 3/4" foam, would result in the top surface being 2-3/4" above the surface. My 2" risers would fall a little short. This first attempt ended up being garbage but mush was learned so it was useful.

Putting the first section of a 2% incline on top of a 2" riser still left a 1/4" height difference. I was forced to reduce the clearance inside the tunnel by 1/4" and now I think (hope) it will all work out. 

Here's some of the leftover foam from my first table surface that I'll be using to build the tunnels. You can see the steak knife and the aluminum angle ready to go. My first step was to cut a slab 3' long. My aluminum angle and the cutting mat are both 3' long so that defines how long each tunnel will be. After that I used the aluminum angle to cut the tunnel sides and top pieces.








After cutting for a while I had a stack of sides and tops waiting to be glued.








I ran a bead of glue on the edge of the upside down top and then hold a side in place. Once the glue dried I put another bead down the inside. Maybe overkill? Waste of glue? I don't know.








Two tunnels finished and waiting on the third.








I put all three onto my table to see how they looked. I'll wait until I get all the track onto the table to decide if I need to make another tunnel piece. I'm thinking I do but I'll wait and see.








The other end.








A close up of one entrance. I like the way this looks! It reminds me of a mine shaft entrance.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I see two big problems with your tunnel.

First you will need at some point to clean the track in there.
You can't reach all the way in to clean so about the only
way you can clean the track is with a track cleaning car pulled through it.
These can be expensive for a good one.

Second, it's not a question if a car will derail there but when it will.
Don't see a good way to get access to a derailed train.

Just a tip on those WS incline and raisers.
Where the incline meets the raiser there will be a very sharp angle there.
That sharp angle can cause cars to uncoupple.
It's bad in HO no doubt worse in N.
What I suggest is to take a course foam sanding block and smooth out that angle.
Take about a quarter inch off the angle and feather it back about 2 inches into the flat.
This will give you an easement for the transition to flat. Make sure you keep it straight and level.

Good luck with the build and have fun.

Magic


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Magic said:


> I see two big problems with your tunnel.
> 
> First you will need at some point to clean the track in there.
> You can't reach all the way in to clean so about the only
> ...


You're correct on both counts... except I'm not gluing down any of these tunnels. They'll lift right off. I'm going to be able to disconnect a couple of pieces of flex track from above and remove a tunnel section to access the track below and fix whatever the problem is. This whole layout is going to be held down with pins.

Someday if I build out a landscape I'll want a mountain that covers a good portion of a corner and I'll have to do some alterations to the table in order to get access to the track from below, or something like that.



> Just a tip on those WS incline and raisers.
> Where the incline meets the raiser there will be a very sharp angle there.
> That sharp angle can cause cars to uncoupple.
> It's bad in HO no doubt worse in N.
> ...


That's a great tip! I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere before so I'll definitely do that. It makes sense that the sharp angle would be a problem. Is that just on the top transitions or does it also cause problems on the bottom of the incline? Does 2% cause you issues, or do you use higher grade? 

I did buy a lot of the inclines which I'll need eventually in this build, but I have yet to install any of them and so far I have no experience with them. If I'd thought about it I would have assumed the track wouldn't bend sharp enough to cause those kinds of problems. I'd have assumed that and as long as two pieces of tracks didn't meet at or close to the transition the track couldn't exactly follow that sharp angle anyway. But I'd just be guessing.



> Good luck with the build and have fun.


Thanks! So far it's been a blast and I'm enjoying the build as much as I'll enjoy watching the trains make their way around the track I'm sure.


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## OkiPirate (Sep 10, 2020)

Mushtang, it's looking great... keep up the good work!

LOL, I was gonna ask if Geddy Lee was helping you with your layout. 

It appears you went with the Digitrax DCS 52. We did as well. Got it last week. Love it... what a difference in the new DCC loco function compared to running it with our old DC controller.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The RhB mountain line on my layout has around 6% effective grades. Easements at the top and bottom are used to transition.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Not a tremendous amount of work so far tonight, but I felt like taking a break and posting a couple of pictures.

I used a small step ladder to raise myself up about a foot off the floor so I could lean over and reach the track on the back wall. It's more difficult to reach without that step ladder than I expected, but with it I'm golden. Tonight I decided to get some small nails and pin the track which will eventually be under the tunnels. I was able to push the nails through small holes in the ties (or sleepers) which seems to keep the track in place. I didn't want them sliding out of the rail joiners mostly. 

So after longer than it should have taken me (I'm 52 years old) I was able to get 4 flex tracks and a curve piece connected. 









My DCC Santa Fe arrived recently and today I decided would be the day I put it on the track to break it in. It was the first locomotive to ride down the new spur and is now doing 20 minutes backwards around that long loop now that it's completed 20 min going forward around it. The turn outs are the only things that are not behaving and I just now had to take the Santa Fe off because the track was giving it fits. There may be an issue with one of the turn outs electrically. 

Should I just throw all these out (probably 15 years old) and get new ones? Are the new powered turn outs better than they used to be somehow?

Here's a picture of it rolling along.








I think tomorrow I'll try to sort out the turn out issue before I put the left end of that loop up on risers and inclines.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

I'm pretty sure my turn outs are jacked up. I'm suddenly getting faults when I drive over them. Most of the time nothing goes wrong and a locomotive crosses fine. Other times a locomotive rides over one and suddenly stops, the controller beeps three times fast, then the locomotive starts up again and continues. And every once in a while a locomotive just stops completely and the controller beeps and then nothing happens until I go move the locomotive. It's weird. I don't know enough about this stuff to know what to look for to even try and figure out what's happening.

I'm guessing I should trash all my turn outs and get new ones. These are old and very used, plenty dirty, and that's just a recipe for things to go wrong.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Mushtang, I suggested taking about a quarter inch off the tops of the risers, that may be too much.
For N scale about a sixteenth would be plenty, just enough to get rid of that sharp angle.
Yes I did do an easement at the start of the incline, just put a few shims under the track to make a
more gradual transition. 
My track is on cork roadbed so that helps with the transitions.

Just my opinion but if you can afford new turnouts and they are bad I would go that way.
BUT first give them a good cleaning and make sure everything moves freely,
no sense spending money you don't have too.
Also make sure they are flat, level and reasonably secured, if they are moving about 
they will not work right.

Turnout problems are no fun at all and good tack work is essential for good train running.
I ended up replacing some of my much used turnouts for just that reason, they just did not work right.

Just pinning the risers and inclines is OK but track nails for the track might not hold in the foam.
They will loosen up over time and cause problems.
What I did was to use T50 staples to hold my HO track and it worked well till I ballasted.
T50 staples would be too big for N but you might try some smaller ones to see if they will work.
What I did was to put the staples on the outside of the rails, tight against the rails.and over two ties
I pushed them in at about a 30° angle. 
Don't push them in too hard or you'll flex the ties and your track will not be in gauge.
This held the track very secure but was still able to make changes 
by just pulling out a few staples. Just a suggestion and it may work for you, it did me.

Clean track and loco wheels are pretty important with DCC, even new track can get dirty
when you lay it, keep things clean.
Looks like you doing just fine so far keep up the good work. 

Magic


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I would really recommend that you solder your track together. Especially along the back wall where access is more difficult. It will eliminate future frustration and poor running.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Earlier today I got help with the turnouts. Apparently one of the rail joiners slid too far in one direction and created a gap. Rail joiner replaced, turnout works now. Hooray! Another one kept derailing my loco but I replaced it with one on my desk and that's a puzzle for another day.

I was trying to avoid soldering because it's likely this particular set up will only last for a year or so (unless I decide to expand before that) and I want to be able to reuse the track. Am I wrong to think that soldering the tracks make them difficult to impossible to completely take apart and rearrange?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

No. It is completely re-usable. Use de-soldering braid to absorb the solder on the rails and disassemble while still hot.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

That's good to know! I'm reading up on DCC and seeing the benefits of separating the track into blocks, and wiring to each block with a leader from a main bus. I have lots of questions about all that but in the mean time I'll see what I can make work. I'll probably be wiring the track into blocks later after I run into trouble, haha. But it will either work without it or give me something else to work on which I'll enjoy. Either way is good, right?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I wish I had thought about wiring in blocks when I built this layout. Signal wiring would have been much easier than the mess I am not looking forward to when or if I decide to install working block signaling.

It would be a good idea to decide now if you want block signaling and if so, where to separate the blocks based on where you want the signals to be installed and what they are going to indicate.

It can be done without insulated blocks, but it's more involved.

Semaphores though are rather easy(er) to wire on a continuous piece of track.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Tonight I finally got started with risers. Before installing any I took a pencil and outlined the track onto the tabletop foam. I disconnected large sections and moved them off to the side and tried to pin the risers so the track would run down the middle. I was mostly successful I think. 

I'm guessing that I'm doing this in the wrong order and I'll regret not doing something else first, but I wanted to get some trains going up and down hills. 









Here's the path of track on the table top where a riser is about to be pinned into place.








The continuation of one riser to another probably could look better. Go gentle on me, it's my first time.








It's difficult to see in this picture unfortunately but the track from a turnout will be to the left of this riser on one of it's own. I'll need to pick up some more tomorrow.








After this I was able to pin down an incline.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

This first incline will be a straight line, the other three planned for this table will be curved and meander through the layout some. I measured from the edge of the table and made several marks, then used my aluminum angle to draw a line which I'd use to align the edge of the foam incline. 









A few minutes and more than a few pins later and I had my first incline in place with track running down it.















The incline and the risers look really cool! Not to those of you who have done this already, but to me it's amazing looking.










So far none of the track is pinned in place to the foam risers, I'll want to get further along with the foam first.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

After your foam risers are in place and you've marked the rest of the area where the track will run, I would really install roadbed before laying track. Especially on the risers. You'll need something to fill the gaps in the risers or all of your ballast will fall into the gaps between the ties. And it just looks better with the track elevated off of the sub-roadbed.

On the sides of the roadbed, you can use any kind of filler from plaster to plaster cloth or paper mache´ to fill in the gaps so you have a base for grass, signals, or signs.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

MichaelE said:


> After your foam risers are in place and you've marked the rest of the area where the track will run, I would really install roadbed before laying track. Especially on the risers. You'll need something to fill the gaps in the risers or all of your ballast will fall into the gaps between the ties. And it just looks better with the track elevated off of the sub-roadbed.
> 
> On the sides of the roadbed, you can use any kind of filler from plaster to plaster cloth or paper mache´ to fill in the gaps so you have a base for grass, signals, or signs.


That's part of my long term plan. This is more of a way to get to know how the basics are done project. I'll learning how DCC works and doesn't work, I'll learn how easy it is to get this styrofoam to go where I want, learning how to wire a track and turnouts so that I can operate two trains on the two loops and direct them back and forth as I wish. I'm starting slow.

There's more space in the room I'm building in and if I expand I'll venture into landscaping, ballast, roadbed, etc. That may be a year away, maybe sooner, maybe never. But this is fun for now.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

It's been a little while since I've updated so after today's milestone I thought I'd post a few pictures. 

The two loops are now finished with their risers and inclines and with connecting track between them along the back wall (one in a tunnel and one on top of the tunnel). I've let both of my locomotives run around them for a while on separate loops and nearly everything is okay, only one confusing problem.

One turnout makes my diesel locomotive stop for about a second and then it starts up and keeps going. It's not a short - the controller doesn't beep and the other locomotive doesn't lose power. I had an issue with that happening and figured out the problem. The locomotive is entering from the frog side and as soon as the wheels hit the closure rails it stops briefly. And what's weird is it only happens in that direction. If it enters from the single track side it's fine. It's a mystery. So for now on that loop I only run the diesel that one direction. The steam loco (shorter wheel base) has no issues anywhere.

Here's a picture of the entire table. I couldn't get the entire thing in a regular shot so I had to resort to a panoramic picture. It makes the table look all kinds of wrong but you can at least follow which tracks are connected to which.








Standing at the end, looking down the table. 








Here's the other end. There's a wall tot the right so I can't take the same kind of viewpoint.








And another general shot of the table.








My next step is to add the reversing track, so that each train can change what direction it's going on the loop. 

After that I'll either add a passing siding line on top of the tunnel so that the trains can pass each other that way (as opposed to one above and one below which would work just fine), or I'll wire up the turnouts so that I can switch the tracks from one location next to my controller. Or maybe I'll think of a third option before that happens.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Looks good so far. How does it run?


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

It runs great, except for that one issue I mentioned.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

If a train derails inside the long tunnel at the back, how are you going to get access to it...?


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

The tunnel is just pinned in place. If something happens I can roll the tunnel off pretty easily. 

If it becomes a recurring issue I'll change the tunnel to an elevated bridge by cutting large access holes in the sides. Or I could reroute the table top track to run beside the elevated section instead of under it. I have options.

For now I like the way the train disappears for a bit. It also sounds cool to sound the horn while it's in there.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Next step, while taking a break from solving the passing track turn out issue that I discussed in another thread, I decided to tackle the Automatic Reversing track. I'm using a Digitrax AR1 to handle the switching of the polarity of the reversing track.

It works _nearly_ perfectly. My two locomotives are different in length and the short steam loco has no problems at all, but the longer diesel loco works about 80% of the time. There is an adjustment on the AR1 which can alter how sensitive it is to detecting a short circuit and I'm guessing it just needs to be turned down a little further. Hopefully that's all it is. 


Here's the path that the reversing track will take. I'm cutting track to fit as well as to be able to connect to the AR1 with joiners that I soldered wire onto. The ends that connect to the turn outs will be connected with plastic insulating joiners.








Now all the track is in place and the wires are connected to the tracks. One set connects to the main track, bottom left, and the other set of wires connects to the reversing track, on the riser across the middle.








Eventually I'll drill holes and re-route the wiring below the table and mount the AR1 underneath the table, and the wires can easily be routed in between the riser gaps to hide them.








When I'm finished with both I should probably find a couple of little boxes to house each one in. Does anyone recommend doing that, or is there a reason to leave it exposed once it's all set up?


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

You’re making good progress! I don’t think there’s any need to enclose the AR1 in any kind of box. I prefer to have good airflow around my electronic boards to keep them as cool as possible.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree with Mark, just put it under the layout and let it breath.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Today I picked up a few turnouts to create a yard. Recently I've been doing some testing of my track and to do so I found myself taking one of my trains off the railroad completely to avoid collisions. After doing this a few times I began to fully understand one of the benefits of a yard! 

A few rearranged pieces, cut flex track, and cursing, I got the yard started. I'm awaiting a delivery of a load of flex track and when it arrives about half of it will be installed to finish the yard.

The yard will be near the back of the table in a big open area that I didn't want to go to waste. When I'm done it will look like this was my plan all along. 









Here's a view from further back. After putting this much in I let my diesel locomotive take a few laps around the track.









Everything was fine on the test until one turnout needed some attention. This led to another problem which I need advice on how to fix, which will be in the next post...


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

In the picture below there are two arrows pointing to turnouts. The blue turnout needed to have a point filed down a little because a car derailed a couple of times. Running my fingernail around the inside of the track showed me that the point wasn't snugging up against the main rail enough and the flange of a wheel was riding up it. Or at least I _think_ that was the problem - I filed it down some and the problem is gone. Yay!

My big issue started when I switched it back to the way it was and let the diesel run around some more. Two of the next three trips around that loop as soon as the diesel loco got to the blue turnout it stopped briefly, the Digitrax Zephyr beeped three times, and it started back. When it got to the red one the same thing would happen. As it ran through the rest of the loop it would pass over three other turnouts without issue. A steam locomotive is parked with it's nose out of the tunnel so I happened to notice that it's headlight would go off when this would happen which means power to the entire track was cut briefly. This is how the controller acts when there's a short. 

So the mystery is, what is being shorted, why did it not do this until the turnout was switched briefly to the other track, what could possibly be different about that section of track between the blue and red arrows or those two turnouts, and what tests can I do to find out what's going on?


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

What you describe indeed sounds like you are getting a momentary short when the locomotive passes over the turnout. I suspect that when you filed down the point rail, you slightly changed the geometry of the track and that is what's changed such that you are now experiencing this problem when you didn't before hand. I also suspect the issue has always been there, its just that now its been exposed by the slight geometry change.

You've probably seen the dozens of other posts over the past years of people having a similar issue where their locomotive stutters or stops over a turnout. I'm guessing you have the same exact problem that you're getting the short at the frog of the turnout. The solution that has worked for most others is to put a small dab of nail polish on the rails just after the frog to in essence extend the insulation slightly farther. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, post a close up picture of your turnout and we can circle the spot where you need to put the nail polish.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> If you don't understand what I'm talking about, post a close up picture of your turnout and we can circle the spot where you need to put the nail polish.


I appreciate the help!!


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Here's where putting a small dab of nail polish will solve shorting problems:









See the 2 small red ovals where the diverging rails join the frog. Putting small dabs of nail polish will extend out the insulation and prevent a metal wheel from touching both diverging rails at the same time. You don't want to make the nail polish too large or you'll create too much of a dead zone that locomotives may stall on because of lack of electrical contact (instead of shorts). In this particular image, the gap between the 2 diverging rails looks fairly good. So I'm having some second thoughts that this is your problem. You can give the nail polish a try and if it doesn't solve the problem, you can remove it with a bit of nail polish remover.

The other thing you should take care of is being sure your joints are tight and the rail joiners are evenly positioned across the joint.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Putting small dabs of nail polish will extend out the insulation and prevent a metal wheel from touching both diverging rails at the same time.


I've looked at this a while and I don't understand how a wheel could possibly touch both as it is. I'm not saying this is wrong, I just don't understand it.

If a wheel is in between those rails the train has already gone off the track. 

Are you saying that a wheel may be so wide that it spans both? That wheel would have to be seriously wide and mine don't have those for sure.

I did slide the joiner across the space a little better and so far that particular turnout hasn't repeated the problem. 

Several of my turnouts will derail the diesel locomotive if it's entering on the single end, but not constantly. It may do fine 3 times and then the next it sends the lead truck the wrong way and the rear truck the other. Grrr. 

Is it just Atlas turnouts that do this? Maybe I need to find a different brand. I've spent a LOT of money on Atlas track already and I'm not willing to convert everything to a track with built in bedding or something like that.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

_*Are you saying that a wheel may be so wide that it spans both? *_

Yes.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If not now, it may ware the plastic down and reveal rail even closer together.


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