# Track hold down question



## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

I have finally gotten to the point in my layout where I am ready to secure the track to the layout, at least semi-permanently. I think the track design is in its final form and we have the bed done. I am using a 4x8 sheet of plywood as the very base, with two and a half inches of pink foam on top of it as a cushion. This was done to allow for part of the foam to be removed to create a gully with a stream and a lake as part of the scenery. On top of the foam is a Bachmann grass mat as the true base for the scenery. I have the track mostly laid out with Kato Unitrack. I will use Atlas sectional track for a trolley loop.

I have read some disagreements in other threads on whether or not nails would work going into the foam base. I want to make sure the track doesn't move again (in normal use). I recognize that I may need to move the track at some point in the future though I don't have any plans to do so right now.

What do you recommend for securing the track to the mat over the foam?


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

I think you're going to have to try the nails so you can see for yourself what happens. Nail the track down then just tug the track a little bit.


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## Wooky_Choo_Bacca (Nov 13, 2020)

There are several things you can use to hold the track and a couple that I wouldn't use again, that would be the Woodland Scenics Foam Tack Glue. I used it on my first layout and it is a rather permanent set once dried, track can be taken up later but getting the old glue off is a nightmare. I used clear silicone caulk the lay track on the new layout but it doesn't hold well, basically rubber that is easy to give, cleaning is just peel it off whatever. What I have holding the track now is Liquid Nails, a blop on the several protrusions on the underside of the Unitrack staying away from the connections and once it sets it's there and doesn't give much


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Latex adhesive caulk. Lay a bead under your track centerline and smooth it to a thin layer. I like to use those fake credit cards that you get in the mail for this -- no clean-up, just toss it when you're done.

I don't think there's much disagreement on track nails in foam. They just don't hold well. Unlike wood, the foam doesn't grip the sides of the nail when it's inserted, and it's much more prone to the hole enlarging if stress is placed on the track.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

If you have 2-1/2" of pink foam to work with, I would try nails to hold your track down. Except you probably won't be able to find small nails long enough to do a credible job. In that case, you could probably make your own longer "nails" out of soft galvanized steel wire that you can easily buy at a hardware store in various gauges.

The main thing is to just be able to lightly hold the track down and prevent it from sliding around. The longer, home-made "nails" should be able to accomplish this. If it doesn't end up working out, no big deal. You'll just have a bunch of basically un-noticeable pinholes in your foam. And maybe out a few bucks for a roll of galvanized steel wire (which you can probably put to good use down the road for something else anyway).

Like I say, there isn't much to lose, if you ask me. If it doesn't work, then try the latex caulk method.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Thank you all. I now have some alternative methods to discuss with my son and to try.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Steve Rothstein said:


> I have finally gotten to the point in my layout where I am ready to secure the track to the layout, at least semi-permanently. I think the track design is in its final form and we have the bed done. I am using a 4x8 sheet of plywood as the very base, with two and a half inches of pink foam on top of it as a cushion. This was done to allow for part of the foam to be removed to create a gully with a stream and a lake as part of the scenery. On top of the foam is a Bachmann grass mat as the true base for the scenery. I have the track mostly laid out with Kato Unitrack. I will use Atlas sectional track for a trolley loop.
> 
> I have read some disagreements in other threads on whether or not nails would work going into the foam base. I want to make sure the track doesn't move again (in normal use). I recognize that I may need to move the track at some point in the future though I don't have any plans to do so right now.
> 
> What do you recommend for securing the track to the mat over the foam?


Steve:

I have never used W/S grass mat, and how you secure your track to that would depend on the material the grass mat is made of*, and the type of track you're using.
Flex, or conventional (non-roadbed) sectional track, glue fairly easily with a variety of adhesives, because they have the entire bottom surface of the plastic tie strip sitting on the cork, foam, or other, roadbed. However, "roadbed track", like Kato Unitrack, and Bachmann EZ-Track, a have relatively small surface area at the bottom. Just the thin edges of the plastic roadbed piece.
Extruded foam does not always accept some adhesives well. The foam can have an outer "skin" layer that is a little slippery, and may not glue all that well. Sanding the foam to get rid of the shiny outer skin layer, and expose the dull, flat, inner part of the foam helps when gluing.

An additional problem that you have is that you want the track to stay in place, but you also may want to take it up later.
If I remember correctly you are using Kato Unitrack. If that's true, there is a potential third problem, train noise. Both the gray plastic roadbed piece, and the extruded foam board itself, make pretty efficient "sounding boards" that amplify the sound of moving trains. You can cut down on the noise from the roadbed, by filling the hollow space under the roadbed, with something porous. Cork, or foam commercial roadbed will work, or a cut-to shape piece of pink foam might help with two of the problems. Filling the entire roadbed cavity with foam will cut down on the noise, and provide a bigger bottom surface to glue to the 2-1/2" foam board, or the grass mat.* If you coat the bottom of the cut pieces of foam , (that are filling the roadbed) with glue, and then lay the track in place, then after the glue dries, you can lift the track off the cut foam pieces whenever you want. While sitting on top of these, glued down, cut pieces of foam, the track won't be able to shift side-to side.
Latex caulk is a good adhesive for all the materials mentioned. Track, foam, wood, and probably the grass mat too. Caulked down track can be taken up easily by sliding a putty knife coated with a bit of WD-40, along under the track.

*If that Mat is paper, then white glue (Elmer's) might hold it to the sanded surface of the foam board. White glue could also be used to hold the foam board to the plywood base.

Traction Fan


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## Wooky_Choo_Bacca (Nov 13, 2020)

On the pink foam sheets I've gotten there was a protective layer of plastic on both sides, I pulled the plastic (think Saran Wrap) off which left bare nekkid foam that the glue sticks well to, no sanding needed


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Wooky,

We had a weird to me situation where the two pieces of inch thick foam had no skin or caoting, but the half inch had the plastic stick on like you describe. And yes, it peeled off and they foam stuck well to each other and the plywood base. I think my son used a hot glue gun to stick the foam to the wood and each other. For the most part, I think he did not go very far in, and basically did a bead around the edges, but I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.

The mat we are using wood glue to secure to the foam. We did one end of it Saturday, and when it finishes setting, he was going to do it a little further each day to make sure we get all of the air and wrinkles our of it.



traction fan said:


> I have never used W/S grass mat, and how you secure your track to that would depend on the material the grass mat is made of*, and the type of track you're using.
> 
> Flex, or conventional (non-roadbed) sectional track, glue fairly easily with a variety of adhesives, because they have the entire bottom surface of the plastic tie strip sitting on the cork, foam, or other, roadbed. However, "roadbed track", like Kato Unitrack, and Bachmann EZ-Track, a have relatively small surface area at the bottom. Just the thin edges of the plastic roadbed piece.
> Extruded foam does not always accept some adhesives well. The foam can have an outer "skin" layer that is a little slippery, and may not glue all that well. Sanding the foam to get rid of the shiny outer skin layer, and expose the dull, flat, inner part of the foam helps when gluing.
> ...


Traction Fan,

Yes, I am using unitrack for most of the layout, with Atlas Code 80 sectional track for the trolley loop. I do not know what the grass mat is made of, but it is like a thin rubber mat with plastic grass blades all over it. 

I kind of like simplifying the problem with your suggestion. If I cut the mat and remove it in small sections, I can glue extra blocks of foam to the foam underneath it. I can then lay the track down on the blocks and it won't move at all with the blocks stopping it from sliding around. There will be no need for the track itself to be nailed or glued down since there is nothing trying to lift it in normal operations. This lets me lift if it if I need to for any reason and keeps it stable and aligned for the trains. 

That Atlas track will be even easier because my son is using some form of artist's board as a base for the city. It is made of what looks like a compressed cardboard material and is about 1/4 inch thick. We are planning on cutting out the base to sit that track inset so the rail tops are even with the top of the base board. We will cover the ties with a thin sheet of stiff paper like mat board for a photo that will be painted to match the road surface. The base board will stop the track from moving, 

I had not considered the noise problem (hadn't noticed it yet actually), especially with the hollow area of the unitrack bed acting like a sounding board. It makes sense to me that it is working that way. The foam blocks filling it will also handle that problem so it makes it even more sensible.

Steve


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Wooky_Choo_Bacca said:


> On the pink foam sheets I've gotten there was a protective layer of plastic on both sides, I pulled the plastic (think Saran Wrap) off which left bare nekkid foam that the glue sticks well to, no sanding needed


WCB;

I'm using blue foam board that does not have a peel off coating. I sanded it (very easy with an electric orbital sander set to low speed( to take off the printing and , in somke places to thin it down a little. I used carpenter's wood glue to hold it down on the plywood, and that works well.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


Steve Rothstein said:


> Wooky,
> 
> We had a weird to me situation where the two pieces of inch thick foam had no skin or caoting, but the half inch had the plastic stick on like you describe. And yes, it peeled off and they foam stuck well to each other and the plywood base. I think my son used a hot glue gun to stick the foam to the wood and each other. For the most part, I think he did not go very far in, and basically did a bead around the edges, but I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.
> 
> ...



Steve;

I did the same thing with my trolley line. Atlas flex track, set in 1/4" foam core poster board from Walmart. I used Holgate Reynolds plastic brick sheet alongside, and between the rails of the trolley track. This gives the look of an old brick street that's been paved over in the automobile lanes ,but with the brick border retained around the trolley track.
You might try some commercial foam roadbed as a filler/ hold-in-place material for your Kato track. It sticks down by itself and can be easily shaped to any curve.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Steve Rothstein said:


> Wooky,
> 
> We had a weird to me situation where the two pieces of inch thick foam had no skin or coating, but the half inch had the plastic stick on like you describe. And yes, it peeled off and they foam stuck well to each other and the plywood base. I think my son used a hot glue gun to stick the foam to the wood and each other. For the most part, I think he did not go very far in, and basically did a bead around the edges, but I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.
> 
> Steve


Hey Steve, & All,

FYI, The plastic coating is not a weird situation at all. You will normally find it on thinner sheets of foam (i.e., 1/2" and 3/4" thick sheets), because these thinner sheets can break far more easily without the plastic skins. 1" thick and above are stronger and more impervious to normal handling when purchasing and transporting home, so they won't have the plastic protective skins.

Paul.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Mixed Freight said:


> Hey Steve, & All,
> 
> FYI, The plastic coating is not a weird situation at all. You will normally find it on thinner sheets of foam (i.e., 1/2" and 3/4" thick sheets), because these thinner sheets can break far more easily without the plastic skins. 1" thick and above are stronger and more impervious to normal handling when purchasing and transporting home, so they won't have the plastic protective skins.
> 
> Paul.


Thanks Paul. That explains that the situation I thought was weird is really a reasonable solution to a problem. I have three sheets of foam, 2 that are 1 inch thick and 1 that is half inch. I did not think putting plastic on the sheets was weird, just that only the thin one had it. That explains why.

Steve


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## Aqualungs (Jan 25, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Latex adhesive caulk. Lay a bead under your track centerline and smooth it to a thin layer. I like to use those fake credit cards that you get in the mail for this -- no clean-up, just toss it when you're done.
> 
> I don't think there's much disagreement on track nails in foam. They just don't hold well. Unlike wood, the foam doesn't grip the sides of the nail when it's inserted, and it's much more prone to the hole enlarging if stress is placed on the track.


I was thinking the same. Should hold good and if you need to pull it up should peel back nicely.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

I too agree with the use of inexpensive acrylic latex caulk or Liquid Nails for projects if you are feeling flushed, from a big box store applied with a caulking gun (cut the tip at an angle close to the end to extrude a small amount. DON'T use regular Liquid Nails, it is not foam safe. The only thing I would do differently than others have suggested is, since you are using Kato track with the roadbed attached, just put down small dabs on the center line, a couple per section, where the cross pieces are on the underside. With that track all you need is a small amount of hold to keep it from sliding around if bumped or from vibrations and you don't want it oozing out from underneath if you are not planning additional ballast stone, so you don't need to spread it. Weight the track down for a couple hours while the caulk dries.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> I too agree with the use of inexpensive acrylic latex caulk or Liquid Nails for projects if you are feeling flushed, from a big box store applied with a caulking gun (cut the tip at an angle close to the end to extrude a small amount. DON'T use regular Liquid Nails, it is not foam safe. The only thing I would do differently than others have suggested is, since you are using Kato track with the roadbed attached, just put down small dabs on the center line, a couple per section, where the cross pieces are on the underside. With that track all you need is a small amount of hold to keep it from sliding around if bumped or from vibrations and you don't want it oozing out from underneath if you are not planning additional ballast stone, so you don't need to spread it. Weight the track down for a couple hours while the caulk dries.


Thanks for the tip about the right type of liquid nails. That is important.


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