# Shapeways and 3D printing



## vette-kid

Anyone familiar with shapeways? I found a jurassic park gate (ya know, the giant one from the first movie..."whatcha got in there, King Kong?" That would fit perfect on my N scale dinosaur layout. The small version is only about $10 (1.5"), but the large version (6") jumps to a whopping $200!! I've bought items that size in there before and were only around$30. I'm just trying to figure out why it's so high. The creator of the file didn't understand the price either. 

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## Severn

I made a model ... Well adapted someone else's train engine model, and made a kind of faux emd diesel engine and had shapeways print them both.


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## Trackjockey05

I only recently made a purchase from Shapeways i picked up a Fotomat kiosk, anyhow I was always under the impression that the prices were set by the owner of the file, because I’ve seen locomotive shells that were under $100, and many others that were North of $200, noticed the same with some of the detail items too


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## vette-kid

No, the owner of the file is willing to give me the file. Free. I think they just upload the file and shapeways does the printing and sets cost. Not sure if the author gets a commission or how that works. Some if the prices seem random. If I get the file I'll try at a few other places and see what the price is. At $200 it would take to long for a 3d printer to pay for itself!

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## CTValleyRR

Generally, the people that are listing things through the Shapeways store are getting a good percent of the price, but Shapeways does set the price based on the amount of material that will be used, and also the equipment utilization. IOW, you pay for the time that their equipment is not available to print anything else because it is printing your job. That's why the bigger jobs, which take much longer to print, cost a lot more.

I still buy things from their store. I think it's a good source. And it's even better if you can buy the STL fi,e (the file used by the printer to actually create the model). I think, though, that you're way off when you think about how long it will take a 3D printer to pay for itself. I have an Anycubic Photon SLA printer and an automated post processing unit (cleans and cures finished prints). The whole setup cost about $850 when I bought it: you can get it for about 2/3 that much now, and you don't need the post processor -- it's easy enough to do it manually, just a lot messier.

Anyway, mine has paid for itself several times over in 3 short years. I also enjoy painting 25mm miniatures. The STL file for these costs about $5-$10, depending on size, while a printed figure costs about $30-45. Two dozen figures at that rate would have paid for the printer, but it's even more efficient than that, because there are thousands of FREE files out there, and if you teach yourself a 3D CAD program (not that hard), you can make anything you desire. I created a mount for my turnout controllers and printed 34 of them, whereas they would have cost $3.25 from a supplier ($110). It's also nice to be able to print a lot of something, like park benches, where you would have to buy several sets to get the numbers you need for true realism. Yes, the resin costs money ($20 worth will print 50-ish figures, depending on size), and you need to replace the plastic film on the resin cat occasionally, but it's still very cost effective if you can swing the price of admission.


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## Severn

I do have a thing there you can buy there -- I set the price a whopping profit of $0.00 -- business man that I am, brilliant! I think I sold either 1 or 2. But it's for O scale. It's a very vague hand made version of a one of the emd engines. Maybe you might say it's "reminiscent" of one.


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## vette-kid

CTValleyRR said:


> Generally, the people that are listing things through the Shapeways store are getting a good percent of the price, but Shapeways does set the price based on the amount of material that will be used, and also the equipment utilization. IOW, you pay for the time that their equipment is not available to print anything else because it is printing your job. That's why the bigger jobs, which take much longer to print, cost a lot more.
> 
> I still buy things from their store. I think it's a good source. And it's even better if you can buy the STL fi,e (the file used by the printer to actually create the model). I think, though, that you're way off when you think about how long it will take a 3D printer to pay for itself. I have an Anycubic Photon SLA printer and an automated post processing unit (cleans and cures finished prints). The whole setup cost about $850 when I bought it: you can get it for about 2/3 that much now, and you don't need the post processor -- it's easy enough to do it manually, just a lot messier.
> 
> Anyway, mine has paid for itself several times over in 3 short years. I also enjoy painting 25mm miniatures. The STL file for these costs about $5-$10, depending on size, while a printed figure costs about $30-45. Two dozen figures at that rate would have paid for the printer, but it's even more efficient than that, because there are thousands of FREE files out there, and if you teach yourself a 3D CAD program (not that hard), you can make anything you desire. I created a mount for my turnout controllers and printed 34 of them, whereas they would have cost $3.25 from a supplier ($110). It's also nice to be able to print a lot of something, like park benches, where you would have to buy several sets to get the numbers you need for true realism. Yes, the resin costs money ($20 worth will print 50-ish figures, depending on size), and you need to replace the plastic film on the resin cat occasionally, but it's still very cost effective if you can swing the price of admission.


The gate is 6x6x1.5. I'm no pro, but I don't think that equals $200 in PLA. Or time. If I get the file I'll try another print service, if they say the same thing then I guess I'll wait until I can add a printer to my workshop. 

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## vette-kid

Looks like it's expensive because it's solid. The author didn't have his software anymore to modify this. Anyone want to take a stab at making it hollow?

https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/607ea17a67234/Porte.dae.zip

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## vette-kid

Craftcloud only wants $7 for it. But I can't view the file to make sure it's correct. 

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## CTValleyRR

vette-kid said:


> The gate is 6x6x1.5. I'm no pro, but I don't think that equals $200 in PLA. Or time. If I get the file I'll try another print service, if they say the same thing then I guess I'll wait until I can add a printer to my workshop.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Again, it's the size of the print. Yes, the material utilized is SOME PART of the total cost, but much of it is composed of the fact that while they're printing YOUR job, they can't print anything else. You also pay for the machine utilization time. More competition would bring this price down somewhat. A 6x6x1.5 job on my printer would take about 8 hours to complete. Granted, FDM printers are faster, as are commercial grade units, but still. There is also labor for post-processing (cleaning, and maybe removing supports).

To compare prices, you need to make sure you're comparing apples to apples, and the only way to be sure of that is to send the same STL file to multiple companies.

At least in the software I use (SolidWorks), there is no easy way to just hollow out a model. You have to delete the solid shapes and substitute ones for the hollow version, and you have to make sure that the hollow model is still printable (that there is enough support for the structure, both during printing and normal use).


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## vette-kid

Yeah, this is why I hadn't gotten into 3d printing myself yet. I got his file printed at craftcloud for $7, so I'll see how it turns out. I also found some files on thingyverse. Craftcloud is great because you can easily scale whatever file you upload. So if this one is a bust,I have alternatives. 

I think a modeler could make a lot of use out of 3d software and printer if your serious about it. 

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## wvgca

for a model, solid is best ... the slicer software will generate the honeycomb internals as you specify [or the default] ... shapeways is pricey ...it was less money for me to buy a printer kit and print the models themselves ... i'm into HO so the standard resolution is good enough for outhouses and small buildings ..


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## CTValleyRR

vette-kid said:


> Yeah, this is why I hadn't gotten into 3d printing myself yet. I got his file printed at craftcloud for $7, so I'll see how it turns out. I also found some files on thingyverse. Craftcloud is great because you can easily scale whatever file you upload. So if this one is a bust,I have alternatives.
> 
> I think a modeler could make a lot of use out of 3d software and printer if your serious about it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Definitely. It's one of my best purchases, for sure. And they're getting cheaper all the time.


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## vette-kid

Well I can say for certain that this didn't turn out the way I expected! Yes, that's my ring is sitting in! Not sure if it was my typo or the company that printed it. Ah well, try again I guess.









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## CTValleyRR

Now I guess you know why it was only $7.00....


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## vette-kid

Sort of. Something wrong with the file, the software claims the correct dimensions but it isn't coming out that way. I did get another one that's closer for about $15. Turned out to be a little too narrow for me, but I didn't have a way of determining the dimension I needed. 

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## CTValleyRR

Was it your own file that you uploaded?


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## vette-kid

No, I don't have the ability to make that. The strange thing is that when I upload it to craftcloud the dimensions look correct. But in 3d viewer or tinkercad I get errors. Either a bad file or a messed up the scans when I submitted it. The new one is too large to upload to tinkercad. I think i could do it there, but it's 29mb and they have a 25mb limit. 

Either way, I have one that works now. I just need to find a way to modify it so I can get the size I need. 

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## CTValleyRR

Keep us posted. I do a bunch of 3D printing, both on my own machine, and through Shapeways when I need something my printer can't handle (like metal). I'm always eager to keep up on what's going on in the field.


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## vette-kid

Will do. I need to post some photos of the other items I have gotten. I'll get those later this week. 

What do you use? I need to find some way of splitting the file for the gate into multiple files. The way is created, it's multiple pieces in one file and is too large for tinkercad. If I can split it into two files it should work and I can manipulate the sizes separately. Any chance there is a free or low cost (
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## CTValleyRR

We use Solidworks... but that's an expensive program. My son gets a free Student license because he's studying engineering, so no help there. Sorry.


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## vette-kid

Here is the file I'm ultimately going to use. I need to scale it up a little, especially the width. 









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## vette-kid

I also tried scaling a few others I found, mosasaurus, plesiosaurus and a "east dock" sign fun the first movie. A lot wouldn't print because scaling made the print too thin. That week be the Achilles heel of this. N scale means things are small! 3d printing technology doesn't do well with really thin items. At least in PLA or resin.

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## vette-kid

For this with printers or knowledge of them; is an ender 3 capable of the kind of detail I would need for this? I realize it may not be as detailed as the commercial resin printers, a little filing and sanding is ok. 

I think I've spent enough on shapeways and craftcloud that I could have bought and ender3 by now. Curious if the 3 or 5 series are worth looking at for this purpose? I know they are entry level. But if a $2-300 printer is capable of decent print for modeling it might be worth it. 

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## CTValleyRR

If you're spending a bunch of money on 3 D prints, then getting g your own printer is far and away the most cost effective route.

I would check out some unbiased reviews from technical sources: Tom's Tech, Computing magazines, CNET, etc. Not you tube or seller websites. PC Magazine does not mention the Ender series in it's top 9 listing. The Best Cheap 3D Printers for 2021

My Photon is capable of resolutions down to 0.1mm -- that's one reason I got it. I believe, for an FDM printer, the resolution is limited to the size of the filament, in the case of the Ender, 1.75mm.

Just remember one thing: these are NOT plug and play devices. They're precision machines that will take a fair bit of knowledge and tweaking before you get good prints from it. Be prepared for that, and persevere until you get it right.


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## vette-kid

@CTValleyRR, which photon do you have. They have a pretty good sale on right now, $170ish for the photon S. 

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## CTValleyRR

I was an early adopter: I only have the base Photon (the model before the S). I'm not even sure it's sold anymore. FWIW, I paid almost $500 when I bought it about 3 years ago. So yeah, I'd definitely snap up a Photon S for $170.


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## vette-kid

I need to see if I can get the file for this. I'm really pleased with how this is turning out. It tracks great around my little test loop. Just need to decide on a paint them for it. Tan and red are the parks colors but I don't want to overdo it.
















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## CTValleyRR

Some folks will happily share their files with you, often for free or a small fee. Some people want a lot for the files. I had a guy ask me for $250 for an STL file... which would have have been the cost of 5 printed models from Shapeways.


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## OilValleyRy

I know of Shapeways but have not yet bought anything from anyone there. Telephone pole transformers, those bbq style propane tanks, and gas station type ice machines would appeal to me. Maybe little things like a birdbath, but I can scratch build most of those. I was debating an NW5 shell that someone offers, but in the lowest quality the shell was about $100…. Minus all details and of course the frame. Decided to pass. A variety of pickup truck bed caps would be nice though. And if someone made a 1970s van or two with separate doors included (to model them open) I’d certainly buy half a dozen of those.


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## CTValleyRR

OilValleyRy said:


> I know of Shapeways but have not yet bought anything from anyone there. Telephone pole transformers, those bbq style propane tanks, and gas station type ice machines would appeal to me. Maybe little things like a birdbath, but I can scratch build most of those. I was debating an NW5 shell that someone offers, but in the lowest quality the shell was about $100…. Minus all details and of course the frame. Decided to pass. A variety of pickup truck bed caps would be nice though. And if someone made a 1970s van or two with separate doors included (to model them open) I’d certainly buy half a dozen of those.


That's why it's often beneficial to invest in your own printer. Once you get the STL file (or create your own -- most of the items you're talking about wouldn't be hard), you can print unlimited copies for the price of a little filament or resin.


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## vette-kid

OilValleyRy said:


> I know of Shapeways but have not yet bought anything from anyone there. Telephone pole transformers, those bbq style propane tanks, and gas station type ice machines would appeal to me. Maybe little things like a birdbath, but I can scratch build most of those. I was debating an NW5 shell that someone offers, but in the lowest quality the shell was about $100…. Minus all details and of course the frame. Decided to pass. A variety of pickup truck bed caps would be nice though. And if someone made a 1970s van or two with separate doors included (to model them open) I’d certainly buy half a dozen of those.


It depends on how the designer created it. Sometimes a designer sets a high infill that results in higher costs, sometimes significantly. You definitely have to be careful on there. Some are outrageously expensive, some are reasonable and occasionally outright cheap. 

I just got a printer on loan to pay with, so I'll see how it works out for me. I do think it's worth the cost of one, so long as I'm able to create a decent print. But a resin printer may be better suited to modeling than PLA because of the finer resolution.

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## CTValleyRR

I'm definitely sold on the resin printers... the small additional post processing effort is worth it for the finer detail.

While infill may be an issue on something like a locomotive shell, it's not on those small detail parts. My experience with miniature figures suggests that solid objects are worth the extra resin, because of the better strength of the finished product. Support placement also becomes an issue with hollow objects..


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## Shdwdrgn

Just catching up on this thread (not sure how I missed it before). I converted your original file to an STL so I could take a look at it. I'm not sure if it's the conversion process or the details in the original file, but this model is sized at only 6.6mm wide. What size is it supposed to be? Realistically this should be split up into three different pieces so they can be laid flat on the bed. As it stands, this model would be a real bear to print because it would need a ton of supports. I've split things up in tinkercad though, it's not very difficult.

As already mentioned, the slicer software will create an internal honeycomb to provide support, but no software should print a model 100% solid unless you specifically set it up to do that. There's generally no benefit to the strength of larger models and it would just be a waste of filament. However for delicate figures like CTValley mentioned, I could definitely see the benefit there.

You had previously asked about the Ender 3 printer. I have the version 1 model and it could easily print something like these entry gates. There's not a lot of detail to them. You might want to use a sanding block to smooth out the final print, and it pays to take the time to use smaller layers. On the other hand, the caged dinosaur has a lot more detail to it but if you used a small layer height and slowed down the print speed a bit you could get something pretty decent. If you switched over to a 0.2mm nozzle it would also greatly improve the detail. I have printed some flatcars in HO and HOn3, which give me enough detail for the frame and coupler pockets but I haven't had any luck printing the stake pockets yet. If you do go with a filament printer like the Ender 3, do some searching for profiles used to print miniatures -- those guys really have it nailed and are getting some absolutely incredible detail from these printers (and this is probably what I need in order to get better detail in my flatcars).


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## CTValleyRR

Which slicer software do you use? The proprietary Anycubic one doesn’t hollow out shapes and fillmore with with honeycomb lattice.. My understanding is that you have to design the model that way?


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## bewhole

CTValleyRR said:


> Which slicer software do you use? The proprietary Anycubic one doesn’t hollow out shapes and fillmore with with honeycomb lattice.. My understanding is that you have to design the model that way?


This is the one I use. It does have the "Vase mode" and it is free. I have a ender 3pro,ender 5 and it works great with a anycubic. I had one of those too.
https://www.prusa3d.com/prusaslicer/


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## vette-kid

That's what I'm using, but I just started and don't know much about it yet. Had to replace the extruder, so I hadn't even gotten a print done yet. 

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## CTValleyRR

Shdwdrgn said:


> Just catching up on this thread (not sure how I missed it before). I converted your original file to an STL so I could take a look at it. I'm not sure if it's the conversion process or the details in the original file, but this model is sized at only 6.6mm wide. What size is it supposed to be? Realistically this should be split up into three different pieces so they can be laid flat on the bed. As it stands, this model would be a real bear to print because it would need a ton of supports. I've split things up in tinkercad though, it's not very difficult.
> 
> As already mentioned, the slicer software will create an internal honeycomb to provide support, but no software should print a model 100% solid unless you specifically set it up to do that. There's generally no benefit to the strength of larger models and it would just be a waste of filament. However for delicate figures like CTValley mentioned, I could definitely see the benefit there.
> 
> You had previously asked about the Ender 3 printer. I have the version 1 model and it could easily print something like these entry gates. There's not a lot of detail to them. You might want to use a sanding block to smooth out the final print, and it pays to take the time to use smaller layers. On the other hand, the caged dinosaur has a lot more detail to it but if you used a small layer height and slowed down the print speed a bit you could get something pretty decent. If you switched over to a 0.2mm nozzle it would also greatly improve the detail. I have printed some flatcars in HO and HOn3, which give me enough detail for the frame and coupler pockets but I haven't had any luck printing the stake pockets yet. If you do go with a filament printer like the Ender 3, do some searching for profiles used to print miniatures -- those guys really have it nailed and are getting some absolutely incredible detail from these printers (and this is probably what I need in order to get better detail in my flatcars).


Also, looking at this reply again, I think we need to make a distinction between filament printers and resin ones. Because the extruder head has to trace the entire area of the print and fill in solid structures, I can see how this would be wasteful, of time, more so than filament (although there is that too). A resin printer can (and does) print an entire layer 0.1mm thick and up to the cross section of the print bed, in one shot. Print time is measured not by the complexity of the print, but by the number of layers that must be deposited. An extremely large figure (for 25mm gaming scale) measuring 1.5" wide x 3" long x 5-1/2" high only weighs a couple of ounces, and still requires a fairly wide base to be stable. I think a hollow figure, even at this scale, would be too light to be practical, unless you were going to weight the base somehow.

Since we get dozens of prints from a single $25 bottle of resin, I don't see the material cost savings to be much of an issue anyway.


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## vette-kid

Interesting, by your description I assume that a resin print takes significantly less time than the same print in a filament printer?

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## CTValleyRR

vette-kid said:


> Interesting, by your description I assume that a resin print takes significantly less time than the same print in a filament printer?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Not sure, really. I have no basis for comparison. Resin printers are not speedy though. Build plate dips into the resin vat, UV light is on for about 10 seconds to cure the layer, build plate retracts, letting more resin fill in under it, then dips again. This cycle takes about 45 seconds to complete, and it has made a layer 0.1 mm thick. 10 of those (or about 7-1/2 minutes to print 1 mm; 25mm for a man-sized figure means over 3-1/2 hours... and the first few layers have much longer cure times. I figure about 4 hours for a human sized figure approximately 1" tall. But it takes no longer to print 8 figures of that size side by side on the build plate. Twice that height would take twice as long, roughly. I think the print head in a filament printer is moving much more rapidly, though.


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## vette-kid

Yes, but 8 figures would take roughly 8 times longer than 1


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## CTValleyRR

vette-kid said:


> Yes, but 8 figures would take roughly 8 times longer than 1
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


On a filament model yes. Not on a resin printer.


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## Lemonhawk

Seems like its 8x resin or filament. resin may laser a little faster, but it will still take 8x to do the movement. Filament printers can also print different colors


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## CTValleyRR

Lemonhawk said:


> Seems like its 8x resin or filament. resin may laser a little faster, but it will still take 8x to do the movement. Filament printers can also print different colors


A resin printer doesn't laser anything -- unless you're referring to very high end industrial ones. The ones in our price range use a UV LED the size of the build plate to print an entire "slice" (layer) 0.1mm thick at once. It doesn't matter whether that is one little part 2mm on diameter, one huge piece the exact size of the build plate, or 500 little unconnected pieces scattered all around the area. One layer, one dip of the build plate, 40 seconds. 10 layers = 400 seconds, 100 layers = 4000 seconds (more than an hour, and that's only 10mm high or less than 1/2"). There is no motion other than the up and down dipping of the build plate, and that has to be slow enough to allow a new layer of viscous resin to completely fill underneath the build plate and the partially printed model. Print duration is determined by 3 things (only): speed of movement on the build plate Z axis, cure time set for each layer (it's variable for different resins and operating conditions), with the first 20 or so layers set for a longer exposure time; and the number of layers to be printed, which is determined solely by the height of the printed item. The number or volume of pieces printed in each layer is irrelevant. Think of old fashioned acetate overlays for maps, anatomy drawings, or whatever.

Color may be important to some, but since I paint everything, it's irrelevant to me. The much finer resolution / detail achievable with a resin printer (in the current state of technology) is also a deciding factor for me..


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## Lemonhawk

So the printer uses an array of UV LED's the size of the build plate with the resolution based on the number of LED's in the array? Or like an LCD monitor facing the build plate which used a UV LED's for illumination. That would eliminate the xy motion.


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## CTValleyRR

Correct. There is no X-Y motion in the printer (setting the correct orientation on the X-Y axes is part of zeroing the printer). It moves in the Z axis only. The "monitor" as you term it, is composed of an extremely fine array of LEDs that emit most of their radiation in the UV spectrum. The scale of the individual LEDs is too small to see with the naked eye. The print is built upside down from the bottom up, with the layer currently being printed at the bottom of the resin vat and therefore exposed to the UV light. When completed, the build plate moves to "Max Z" position. The build plate with the print attached can be moved to a solvent cleaning bath as a unit, or the print removed and cleaned by itself.

The post processing cleaning can be done by hand. Anycubic sells a post-printing unit that cleans prints. I typically run one cleaning cycle with the print still attached to the build plate, then remove the print from the build plate, clip off the supports, and run the print through the cleaner again by itself. The build plate goes back to the printer... hopefully having been handled gently enough that it does not need to be re-zeroed before the next print. I generally re-zero every 10 prints or so anyway, just to be sure (and of course, a failed print is a good indicator that you messed up the zeroing).

After cleaning, a finished print needs to be cured under a UV light for approximately 30 minutes to endure complete hardening of the resin. The post-printing unit mentioned above also has a UV light for this purpose.


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## vette-kid

@CTValleyRR am I correct in my assumption that resin printers are less "fidely" than FDM? I'm finding lots of little variables with fdm. Large prints are prone to warping, small print prone to vibrations causing errors, poor adhesion,etc. Nothing insurmountable, but it's a learning curve and some trial and error. Seems like resin eliminates a lot of those variable (but I'm sure adds others)?

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## wvgca

actually no, fdm printers are less fiddly [i have both] ... the resin printer needs more cleanup, both the printer and the image .
it's really pretty simple, if you want rain water barrels as an example, you would pick a printer that closely matches on size, fdm for HO and larger... resin fr N and smaller ..
nice and simple ....


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## vette-kid

Cleanup I can deal with, as long as I get viable prints. Failed prints are a bit frustrating. 

While I will certainly print several N scale items, it will get used for HO (I have both) and general use as well. I'm hoping to print a 47 Plymouth and a White COE for my dad. Not scale specific, but penalty something around 1:50. Plus general use, replacing broken doodads or making a better thingymagig. I like to tinker in lots of stuff, so there will be lots of that, possibly even items for one of the 3 classic cars in the family for which parts are obsolete. 

The possibility exists for both, I'll keep this loaner Ender 3V2 as long as I can. But considering the Photon Mono that's on sale for a few more days. So the question is, is there a lot of settings to adjust with each print in order to get a viable result, or just cleanup of the print and machine one it's done. Nozzle and bed temp seem to vary with different prints on the fdm and can cause issues (warping is the one in trying to figure out right now).

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## CTValleyRR

wvgca said:


> actually no, fdm printers are less fiddly [i have both] ... the resin printer needs more cleanup, both the printer and the image .
> it's really pretty simple, if you want rain water barrels as an example, you would pick a printer that closely matches on size, fdm for HO and larger... resin fr N and smaller ..
> nice and simple ....


I partially agree. I'm not sure about the zeroing process. The resin printers are pretty easy to set up and level.
Scale. Post print processing, though, is definitely more work with resin than FDM (although a modicum of care taken while removing th finished print will avoid any significant cleaning of the printer). I have to say, though that it's a fair trade for the detail achieved -- I wouldn't base my choice of which to buy on that.

I'd disagree about scales, though. The fine detail is worth it in HO, too. Maybe you meant that you can't print tiny N scale objects with an FDM printer, which I'd be inclined to agree with. But if you can only get one, get the one with the resolution that meets your needs, regardless of scale.


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## vette-kid

This is about the best I can do with the ender. It's workable, a little sanding and some putty will clean it up I think, or just cut off the brake wheel and replace with commercial available one. Point is, ya, it's a challenge for N scale and remain affordable. Maybe a high end fdm could do better, but I'm keeping it to about $200.






























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## CTValleyRR

I don't know if that's typical of FDM printers or not, but there seem to be a lot of thin strands of plastic to clean up.

Notice also the distinct layer lines visible on the the ends. That definitely IS typical of FDM printers. You don't see that on resin prints.


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## vette-kid

I think the stands is typical. Comes off easily, just need a light sanding or file. The lines are as well for sure, sanding would help, but very difficult in this scale. Paint might help as well, but again, hard to sand this. So primers are less effective if you can't sand off the high points. Hopefully I'll be able to work on finishing it this amend and see how it goes. 

I think there is room for both for me. The larger build volume of affordable FDM opens up a lot of options for kids toys, part prototyping, functional items etc. While the fine detail of resin is preferable in modeling. 

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## Lemonhawk

The stringy stuff is more a function the filament material. PLA is not stringy while PETG makes fine strings all over the place. As prints go, it looks great to me. I don't see the individual layers or any real artifacts from his FDM printer. The break wheel is probably beyond FDM, but one usually have a sack full in the junk box!


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## vette-kid

This was PLA, but it is old. And I think the temp was a little low on that one. She on the brake wheel, that's kind of the plan. Cut it of and use a spare from something else. I've printed the three of these cars now. One lifted and warped and is useless, another one the roof failed to print correctly, but the other piece are good. So I've got two usable cars. 

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## Shdwdrgn

The stringing can happen if the temp is too high or too low. There are also at least three main retraction settings that control your stringing. For the overall quality, you can gain a lot by cutting your print speed in half (default should be 60mm/s, drop that to 30). Just changing that should at least give you a better idea of what the printer can do.

At that small of scale the brake wheel will never print vertically on FDM, but you could print it separately and horizontally, then glue it on. The rails at the ends should have printed fine though... Going from one support to the next is called 'bridging' and it's not uncommon to see bridges of 1-2" completely unsupported. The stringing may have destroyed them during printing, and the retraction settings are also responsible for the ability to bridge, so these two issues will be closely related.

Are you printing with a skirt or a brim? I ask because it looks like you've got elephant's foot on your first layer. This either indicates that your nozzle is too close to the bed or your first layer settings in your slicer are wrong. You might also check your E setting (when you tell the printer to extrude 100mm of filament, do you get exactly 100mm?) as this might explain why the layer lines are so visible and the stringing is so bad.

What nozzle size and layer height are you using? Even with the stock 0.4mm nozzle I would go with 0.08mm layer height on this, but your first layer is going to be 0.2mm regardless so you may want to go with a raft for bed adhesion so all layers of the car itself are only printed at the smaller layer height. Either way, you've got to nail that first layer or everything after it will be distorted.

I would say at this point ALL 3D printers are still pretty fiddly, plus there's that steep learning curve because there are just so many different factors you have to master to really get the fine details, but once you get everything figured out your prints will show the difference. Keep poking at it, you'll get there...


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## vette-kid

So, I understood some of what you said, haha. I'm pretty sure it was English. 

Honestly, I don't know on most of that stuff, I ran the file through the slicer, put it on the card, into the printer and hit go. Played with temps a bit, but that's it. But anything larger than this I have struggled with. Warping, loss of adhesion, shifting, etc. 

The nozzle is stock (.4mm?) I'll look for those other settings and play around a bit. Maybe I can get better use from it. While not perfect, I still think I can use 2 of them. If I can get them a little cleaner I'd be thrilled. And id love to print some larger prints, stuff that requires supports. 

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## Shdwdrgn

That's why I offered to help you out before...  Yep there's a lot to learn if you want to get good control over your results. There's a ton of info below, so just work through it one step at a time.

First thing to do is check your belt tension. The X axis belt should make a tone, like strumming a guitar. Not terribly tight because you don't want to strip out the screws in the aluminum frame, but do what you can. The Y axis belt is longer, I find it doesn't need to be as tight but you should still get a tone out of it. Tight belts mean less slop as the head moves around, so the sides of your print will be cleaner.

The next thing to tackle is bed leveling, and this is not only one of the most important setup steps, but it is also the one nearly everyone struggles with. You have leveling knobs underneath the bed, and the idea is to adjust them so that the nozzle is the proper distance from each corner. Take a look at the springs underneath -- are they almost completely closed? If not, the leveling needs to be done from scratch (loose springs means the whole bed will go out of adjustment from the vibration every time you make a print. Do it right and you won't have to touch it for a year). Also helps to know if your springs are silver or yellow.

There's more than can be done to the hardware, but this will be enough to get a start on quality control.

After that it comes down to the slicer software. I forget which one you said you were using? I've been using Cura, it's a decent program and it's free. Regardless of the slicer you use you should have very similar settings, they just won't be organized the same way.

The first thing to check is your bed adhesion method. A 'skirt' means it lays down a round or two of filament around the perimeter of your print, but this doesn't actually touch the print. It's just a way to get the filament flowing before starting on the good stuff. A 'brim' will lay down several rows around the print, actually touching it. This helps prevent warping at the edges but you also have to remove it and clean up the edge later. Very handy for really small parts though! And finally, a 'raft' means that it lays down several layers on the bed first, then your print is created on top of this. This one can be tricky because you get some advantages and it can eliminate warping, but if the settings aren't right then your print will fuse to the raft.

Somewhere in your settings should be a way to set the layer height. There will be a separate adjustment for the first layer height -- NEVER change this value until you know what you're doing! That first layer is critical to the success of your print. However the general layer height (which is probably also set to 0.2mm) can be adjusted. With the 0.4mm nozzle you can get decent prints down to 0.04mm (note the extra zero) but I find 0.08mm makes for excellent quality. I use 0.2mm or more for large prints or when prototyping a new model. Of course using a smaller layer height means your print will take that much longer to complete.

I should also mention, for the software you're using, did you find a profile for your printer? If you're using some default setup then the quality is just going to naturally suck. Every type of printer is different so you want to start out with settings that were tuned for your device and go from there.

For the stringing and bridging I mentioned this is related to your retraction settings. In Cura these are under the 'material' settings. For this printer the best starting point is a retraction distance of 6mm, and a retraction speed of 25mm/s. If your values are different, take note of what they're set to and try mine instead.

And finally, your temperature settings. This is going to vary quite a bit depending on the filament you have. I don't just mean whether you have PLA or ABS or whatever... I mean different colors from the same manufacturer can use different temperatures. When I find a good temp for a roll I'll write it on the side of the spool. For PLA I generally start around 205. If it doesn't stick to the bed it needs more heat. If it starts warping it's probably too hot. Adjust in 5-degree increments until you find what works well. In your slicer settings, the first-layer temperature should be five degrees hotter than your print temp. For the bed I've found 65 for the first layer and 60 after that is good, but I have a glass bed which changes things a bit. You may do OK starting out at 60/60.

OK now that you have some initial setup in place you want to test it out. Look on thingiverse for 'calicat' (there's a ton of other calibration animals you can use as well). The original size is 20mm square. I like to print mine at 50% (10mm). This is like a small torture test and there's a lot of fine detail you want to look for. Does the first layer stick? If not, increase the bed temp (and make sure you cleaned the bed before you started printing). If it completes, look it over. The tail is difficult to get perfect, especially the underside, but dialing in for this will give you nice bridging and overhangs. Can you see the eyes, nose, and whiskers clearly? This indicates the ability to print fine details. Other than a single strand where the print finished, is there any other stringing around the ears? Get this nailed and you'll print the railings on the car without any trouble. And of course check the sides to confirm good alignment of the layers. The corners will be rounded because of the nozzle size, but should still be crisp. I keep my final calicats in a row on my desk as a reminder of what color filaments I have (15 so far!) and to see what kind of detail I was able to get from each. Some filaments are much harder to use than others, and the cheap stuff has additives that create inconsistent results.

That should be enough for you to absorb today.  Steep learning curve, but it does get easier.


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## vette-kid

That you did! And I forgot about your offer, thanks for stepping in! I now have some solid places to start from. And I'll try those this weekend hopefully. Sending aPM to you now. 

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## nygooch

I bought my Ender 3 Pro 3D printer for less than $200 on Amazon. It has already paid for itself with the things I have printed using free files. The PLA cost about $20-$25 and I can get 6-7 very large prints from a roll. I highly suggest looking into this option. I love my 3D printer.


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## CTValleyRR

nygooch said:


> I bought my Ender 3 Pro 3D printer for less than $200 on Amazon. It has already paid for itself with the things I have printed using free files. The PLA cost about $20-$25 and I can get 6-7 very large prints from a roll. I highly suggest looking into this option. I love my 3D printer.


We have a whole section of the forum devoted to 3D Printing. We have discussed the merits and economics of 3D printing many times (I use an AnyCubic Photon SLA Resin printer).


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