# Is the future bleak for model railroading?



## jonmyrlebailey

There seems to be very little interest in it by young people today. I fear the PC/console gaming industry has all but obliterated it. R/C cars have competed with it. 

Trains are viewed by many as stereo-typically for retired old men. The fact that Lionel Trains has no longer been advertised on national TV around Christmas time for several decades now makes me think this hobby was bound to be doomed back then. 

This could explain why the digital-age 21st century technology I only dream of is largely not available out of the box in this market. There is now an interest in making cars and airplanes (that actually transport living people) autonomous but apparently not "toy trains". The masses simply don't demand it or the geeks with masters in software engineering and electronics engineering would have "invented it" and boxed it up for us in retail already. I personally will never have the wherewithal to make it happen myself. If the super rich likes of Bill Gates were a die-hard model train buff he surely would have the hard cash to geek-ify this hobby to the max. If the money and demand is there, somebody will build a train "to fly to the moon", so to speak. 

The roar of 1950's/1960's/1970's GM/EMD diesels charms me: R/C drones and shoot-em-up arcade games don't. I am age 53. 

Twenty years from now, I feel, this hobby will likely be totally dead: extinct. 

The fact that nothing new seems to be built by American hands in American factories in this hobby and furthermore with the quality and care of old-world European craftsmen also seems forlorn. Mass-produced China-made things are a huge turn-off to me. :smilie_daumenneg:


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## prrfan

There were people who said the same thing back twenty or more years ago, that model railroading would be gone in twenty years. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. 

Will it ever see the popularity again that it did in the past? Probably not but you have to remember that 1: “electric trains” were THE high tech toys from when they were first developed until the advent of RC, computer games, etc. And 2: rail transportation was THE primary mode of transport for about that same time frame until the interstate highway system and air travel came into play. 

Your own statement about being charmed by the sounds of the old diesels goes right to the heart of it. Trains and railroading hold an emotional attraction to a lot of people. 
Besides the rail network still in place, there’s a lot of leisure activities oriented towards railroading, such as train shows, clubs, garden shows with garden railroads and tourist railroads. These activities include families with young children, not just old men. 

There are some places in the world where clubs build huge temporary layouts with sectional track, set them up, run them for a week or two and take them down. A lot of these utilize sophisticated computer controls that will challenge and satisfy most electronic and computer techs. 
No, model railroading is not going to disappear. It’s changing with the times, or not, depending on the modeler, but as long as there are people around who love trains, there will be model railroads.
:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Fire21

Prrfan said it perfectly, I can't add anything.


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## fluffybunny

First off I am 29.

I don't currently have a layout but when I was moving recently I found my HO trains that I had as a kid. That brought back memories of loops on the ground of my bedroom, and going down the street to the neighbors who had a layout in his basement.

I have been building with L gauge for years and enjoying that, but I would love to do an HO scale layout in the future. Some people in the train hobby say L gauge isn't model railroading, to me it is just a different scale. If you go to a train show and they have a L guage layout then that is usually the busiest one throughout the day.

As for your question of it being gone in 20 years, other people have been saying that about other hobbies I have been in, RC planes, RC cars. I just don't see it happening, sure it may not be as big as it used to be but I think there will still be manufacturers of new products for a long time into the future.


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## Shdwdrgn

Future interest relies on the parents taking their kids to the shows. Go to any train show and look at how many grade-school children are infatuated with watching the trains run. If they are introduced to trains as a kid, they will always hold trains in their hearts.

There was a recent thread about operating cars and making automated loads. I think this is an important aspect that manufacturers should consider when bringing out new lines. When I'm at the shows, the kids just love seeing things 'happen' other than the trains going around in circles. For example, the Lego displays always have lots of kids around them because not only can the kids immediately relate to Legos, but there are always a bunch of other things happening on the layout besides the trains moving around. After that, the most popular layout I've seen was an S-scale setup that had a large number of moving items, such as cattle loading and unloading from the stock cars. The kids were standing in line to push the buttons!

If the manufacturers plan for the future they can grab children's attention while they are young. Make something low-cost that is large enough for kids to play with but small enough that it doesn't take up a whole room. Give them something to get them hooked and wanting more. Trains are no longer a part of everyday life, so the manufacturers need to take more interest in helping develop an interest in the hobby.


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## mesenteria

Indeed the future of the hobby is dire and bleak. Smart phones, on the other hand, and their various descendants, will enjoy a robust economy for the foreseeable future. People can't wait to get the lastest model, often going to the lengths of camping out in sleeping bags on the sidewalk outside of stores to ensure they're the first on their block to claim the latest offerings. I don't see such lineups for the latest BLI or Precision Scale offerings.


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## Lee Willis

People have been asking this for the last thirty years, and frankly the hobby seems much better today than in 1988. Young kids are interested in what young kids are interested in, and it hasn't been model trains since around the time I was a kid. 

I think model railroading is mostly for adults anymore, and that's fine with me. In fact by observation of this forum, the people I meet in model train stores, etc., I will even hazard a guess and say that it is a hobby for adults nearing and in retirement. Given that as a working hypothosis, this could be the golden age of model railroading, given how many baby boomers - guys who did play with trains as a kid, like me, are now retiring.


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## Shdwdrgn

It could also just be an American thing. There's no immediate gratification with model railroads. You have to put a LOT of time and effort into building even a modest layout. Eventually the current generation will realize there is no lasting results from winning all those video games, while building a real object can stay with them for a long time.


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## Spence

As previous stated this subject has been coming up for years and the hobby is still here and I believe it still will be 50 years from now, although I won't be.


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## Colorado1445

Reddit is where the younger crowd of model railroaders hang out.


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## Shdwdrgn

Colorado1445 said:


> Reddit is where the younger crowd of model railroaders hang out.


Woot! I've been put back in 'the younger crowd' again!


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## Old_Hobo

jonmyrlebailey said:


> The fact that nothing new seems to be built by American hands in American factories in this hobby and furthermore with the quality and care of old-world European craftsmen also seems forlorn. Mass-produced China-made things are a huge turn-off to me. :smilie_daumenneg:


If the trains were made in the U.S., the hobby would surely die......the stuff would be 3 times the price, which would be a huge turn-off to most, and that would kill it for sure.....


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## Dennis461

*Who is at fault?*

Did you all buy anyone a train set for Christmas?


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## prrfan

Dennis461 said:


> Did you all buy anyone a train set for Christmas?


Good point! Absolutely. Both 2 year old grandsons. Thomas Brio. Thomas deserves a lot of credit for introducing a whole generation to trains and railroading.


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## Lee Willis

Spence said:


> As previous stated this subject has been coming up for years and the hobby is still here and I believe it still will be 50 years from now, although I won't be.


You and me both, Spence.

But we'll have a lot of fun in the mean time, right?


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## Gramps

prrfan said:


> Will it ever see the popularity again that it did in the past? Probably not but you have to remember that 1: “electric trains” were THE high tech toys from when they were first developed until the advent of RC, computer games, etc. And 2: rail transportation was THE primary mode of transport for about that same time frame until the interstate highway system and air travel came into play.


This statement, more than anything, defines the problem. How many younger people have even ridden on a train?


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## Lee Willis

Gramps said:


> This statement, more than anything, defines the problem. How many younger people have even ridden on a train?


Well, alot of them in big cities have ridden on commuter trains. Maybe not what you had in mind, but they do know trains.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The Sky Is Falling!!!​


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## CTValleyRR

jonmyrlebailey said:


> There seems to be very little interest in it by young people today. I fear the PC/console gaming industry has all but obliterated it. R/C cars have competed with it.
> 
> Trains are viewed by many as stereo-typically for retired old men. The fact that Lionel Trains has no longer been advertised on national TV around Christmas time for several decades now makes me think this hobby was bound to be doomed back then.
> 
> This could explain why the digital-age 21st century technology I only dream of is largely not available out of the box in this market. There is now an interest in making cars and airplanes (that actually transport living people) autonomous but apparently not "toy trains". The masses simply don't demand it or the geeks with masters in software engineering and electronics engineering would have "invented it" and boxed it up for us in retail already. I personally will never have the wherewithal to make it happen myself. If the super rich likes of Bill Gates were a die-hard model train buff he surely would have the hard cash to geek-ify this hobby to the max. If the money and demand is there, somebody will build a train "to fly to the moon", so to speak.
> 
> The roar of 1950's/1960's/1970's GM/EMD diesels charms me: R/C drones and shoot-em-up arcade games don't. I am age 53.
> 
> Twenty years from now, I feel, this hobby will likely be totally dead: extinct.
> 
> The fact that nothing new seems to be built by American hands in American factories in this hobby and furthermore with the quality and care of old-world European craftsmen also seems forlorn. Mass-produced China-made things are a huge turn-off to me. :smilie_daumenneg:


Having read some of your other posts on how you would like to see the hobby, if eveyone thought as you do, I can safely say that would kill the hobby. Fortunately, there are a lot of people who feel differently.

But the hobby, in more or less it's current form, is alive and well. It's reached a state of slow, steady growth, that is infinitely sustainable. It's not going to hold the appeal of young people, who generally lack the patience to create and maintain a layout, but a lot of people come back to the hobby in later years. Also, young folks just starting careers and family often lack the time and disposable income to participate.

Your last paragraph exemplifies one problem we face. Offshore mass production has saved this hobby. Without it, it would have long-since priced itself out of existence. I for one am glad that I can still purchase stuff for a reasonable price. On an inflation adjusted basis, things are cheaper now than they were 50 years ago. If this became a hobby only for the ultra-rich, that would guarantee it's demise.

Honestly, it seems that everything about this hobby offends you -- mass produced Chinese models, lack of craftsmanship (although there are plenty of options to build things from scratch if you are up to the challenge), our whole hobby is too imprecise, too sloppy, underautomated, lacking in super precise-high tech mechanisms, we don't have enough vehicles of exactly the right models and years, and N scale is rinky-dink. And the whole hobby will be dead in 20 years anyway (although I plan to still be joyously immersed in it at that time) So what was it that attracted you to the hobby in the first place? Or are you on a one man crusade to reform the hobby to your own liking...thereby "saving" it?


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## Old_Hobo

CVR....you have read my mind (although that may be a short story!).:laugh:

Couldn't have found better words than yours!


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## Vincent

We bought our pastor's two-year-old grandson a large Thomas the Tank Engine and he loved it. At our house he saw my train lay-out (the first one he's ever seen) and he got all excited about it.


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## Colorado1445

Shdwdrgn said:


> Woot! I've been put back in 'the younger crowd' again!


Time for me to grab a leather jacket.


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## danpuckett

I was at the train show in Middlebury, IN today. It was packed; shoulder to shoulder and many young children and many young adults. It was encouraging. The one thing I miss at the train shows around here is the lack of the new stuff either being displayed, up for sale or run. a lot of pre-war, tin plate, acres of HO cars, etc. We enjoyed the show and renewed some acquaintances.


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## Gramps

Lee Willis said:


> Well, alot of them in big cities have ridden on commuter trains. Maybe not what you had in mind, but they do know trains.


Yes that's true in older cities like New York but the suburban areas in places like Atlanta and Los Angeles are still mostly roads. Commuter rail is travelling to and from point A to B for work. What I was talking about was taking a trip on a train in response to PRR's post. People actually traveled by train rather than commuted by train.


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## CTValleyRR

Travelling to Philly on Amtrak as I post this. With two of my boys.


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## prrfan

Gramps said:


> Yes that's true in older cities like New York but the suburban areas in places like Atlanta and Los Angeles are still mostly roads. Commuter rail is travelling to and from point A to B for work. What I was talking about was taking a trip on a train in response to PRR's post. People actually traveled by train rather than commuted by train.


Gramps: I think that’s absolutely right, for both Amtrak and ViaRail in Canada. Tourist railroads may be the only opportunity many kids have to take any kind of train ride in these two large countries. Maybe easier in Europe and Asia. I have taken grandson on NY to FL Amtrak trip. That’s a story for another thread. :laugh:

Fire21: Thank you for the kind words. 

CTValley: Agreed. With everything. 

OP Jon: You indeed seem to have built up a lot of walls for yourself that would prevent you from creating or deriving any kind of joy from the hobby. I hope you can somehow find it. 
There’s a proverb ( think it’s from Tomorrowland) about two wolves in a constant battle. One is darkness and despair and the other is hope and light. Which one wins? The one you feed. Feed the good wolf, my friend. 
Best,
Dan


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## Lee Willis

prrfan said:


> There’s a proverb ( think it’s from Tomorrowland) about two wolves in a constant battle. One is darkness and despair and the other is hope and light. Which one wins? The one you feed. Feed the good wolf, my friend.
> Best,
> Dan



Good proverb Dan, and true. 

It reminds me of the Navaho proverb about Coyote (their spirit symbol for trouble and troubled thoughts): "Coyote is always waiting." You gotta fight Coyote every day.


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## Vincent

Our pastor's two-year-old grandson came to church with his parents this morning, bringing the Thomas the Tank Engine train I bought him A few minutes later, he was screaming, yelling and hitting another child who picked up his train.

Peace was restored, with the two children playing with Thomas together.

The future looks good for model trains. (Which he's too young to play with, but he's on the right track.)


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## Patrick1544

Guys
Stop talking it to death and play with your trains!


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## Gramps

Vincent said:


> Our pastor's two-year-old grandson came to church with his parents this morning, bringing the Thomas the Tank Engine train I bought him A few minutes later, he was screaming, yelling and hitting another child who picked up his train.
> 
> Peace was restored, with the two children playing with Thomas together.
> 
> The future looks good for model trains. (Which he's too young to play with, but he's on the right track.)


The grandson sounds like he is well on the way to becoming a rivet counter.


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## Vincent

Gramps said:


> The grandson sounds like he is well on the way to becoming a rivet counter.


Odd thing, Gramps He behaves for me better than for his parents.


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## Gramps

Vincent said:


> Odd thing, Gramps He behaves for me better than for his parents.


I was talking about the pastor's grandson who was yelling and screaming.


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## PhillipL

Old_Hobo said:


> If the trains were made in the U.S., the hobby would surely die......the stuff would be 3 times the price, which would be a huge turn-off to most, and that would kill it for sure.....


Well, Kadee freight cars are about the same price as Exact Rail and other detailed freight car producers. Their prices are on par with those made in China and are far better made too! Kadee cars are imported from Oregon. Lets see they invented the most reliable couplers also....... Oops, forgot about Accurail which are imported from the mid-west....


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## Vincent

Gramps said:


> I was talking about the pastor's grandson who was yelling and screaming.


So was I. Like me, he's hyper-active. I simply take his hand and walk him to a nearby convenience store for a fruit bar.


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## Eilif

As a new returner to the hobby, it doesn't seem to be dying. It seems a bit smaller than when I was a kid, and you don't see many train sets is toy stores or department stores anymore.
However, we've got at least 5 train shops and quite a few clubs within a half hour's drive. I realize not everywhere is a major metro like Chicago, but those aren't the indicator of a hobby that looks "bleak"

I do think that more can be done to grow the hobby. I elaborated on this elsewhere so I won't go too deep here. Suffice to say that for a hobby that wants to draw in young people it still shocks me that there isn't an out-of-the box, DCC-compatible receiver-and-software solution that would let folks control and program their DCC systems just from a wi-fi phone, tablet, computer without need of other hardware/controllers/etc. 

Still, even without that, the hobby seems to be puttering along just fine with modest growth and a committed cadre of participants that support a huge array of companies. I really don't think the sky is falling on this hobby.


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## Mr.Buchholz

jonmyrlebailey said:


> There seems to be very little interest in it by young people today.


Really now. I just attended the annual model train show here in town, and I was surprised at the turn out, especially the little kids and younger adults that were drawn to it. This year's show had the best attendance I have ever seen.



jonmyrlebailey said:


> Trains are viewed by many as stereo-typically for retired old men. The fact that Lionel Trains has no longer been advertised on national TV around Christmas time for several decades now makes me think this hobby was bound to be doomed back then.


The same has been said for decades now. Model trains were supposed to be extinct several times over in the last forty years, and guess what? Model trains are still around! Yes, a lot of older gentlemen run trains and railroads, but there are a lot of people in my age group (late 30's) that have railroad layouts, and are introducing their children (not me, because I don't have any) to the hobby.



jonmyrlebailey said:


> The roar of 1950's/1960's/1970's GM/EMD diesels charms me.


As of late, the roar and rumble of GP40's and SD40's can be heard on a mainline these days. Still a treat to hear!



jonmyrlebailey said:


> Twenty years from now, I feel, this hobby will likely be totally dead: extinct.


In your pessimistic reality, perhaps. From where I'm sitting, the future of model trains looks pretty bright.

-J.


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## Old_Hobo

PhillipL said:


> Well, Kadee freight cars are about the same price as Exact Rail and other detailed freight car producers. Their prices are on par with those made in China and are far better made too! Kadee cars are imported from Oregon. Lets see they invented the most reliable couplers also....... Oops, forgot about Accurail which are imported from the mid-west....


Well, that's 2 companies.....out of dozens.....but yes, Kadee's couplers are the best....but their cars are almost too detailed, and very fragile.....

And those 2 companies don't make locomotives.....not much moves without locomotives.....the train layout would be awful stationary......:laugh:


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## dbwr

As someone coming back in to the hobby after 30 years,
I'm a little shocked at some prices. Luckily most of what
I need I kept from years ago in boxes. I don't have an
interest in DCC so much as scenery and static realism.
I took my boy on several train trips and made a small
oval in N-gauge long ago, but electronics won over model rr.


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## Cycleops

dbwr said:


> As someone coming back in to the hobby after 30 years,
> I'm a little shocked at some prices. Luckily most of what
> I need I kept from years ago in boxes. I don't have an
> interest in DCC so much as scenery and static realism.
> I took my boy on several train trips and made a small
> oval in N-gauge long ago, but electronics won over model rr.


If you’ve been out of model railroading since about 1990 it’s not surprising there’s a difference. $100 today was worth $195 back then. Once you take inflation out of the equation I’d say that value for money is very much better today bearing in mind improved standards, in fact it’s never been cheaper.


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## PhillipL

Old_Hobo said:


> Well, that's 2 companies.....out of dozens.....but yes, Kadee's couplers are the best....but their cars are almost too detailed, and very fragile.....
> 
> And those 2 companies don't make locomotives.....not much moves without locomotives.....the train layout would be awful stationary......:laugh:


I forgot, Lionel has begun makes some rolling stock in North Carolina. I should mention the difference of Kadee and Accurail from others, their items are made by their employees in their facilities. The other companies for the most part have their items made on a contract basis with little or no oversight of quality control.


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## Old_Hobo

Really? Then I got some very nice cars without quality control then....weird.....


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## cschroeder6

I wouldn’t say the future is bleak. Being younger (23) I can say yeah, I don’t know anyone else my age into model trains. It also isnt the cheapest hobby to get into when trying to start out in life lol. I was fortunate enough to have been introduced quite young to my fathers mid 50s postwar set, and it had stuck forever. Plus growing up in a town with a steam train still operating today always helps!


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## Eilif

PhillipL said:


> I forgot, Lionel has begun makes some rolling stock in North Carolina. I should mention the difference of Kadee and Accurail from others, their items are made by their employees in their facilities. The other companies for the most part have their items made on a contract basis with little or no oversight of quality control.


Quality control is whatever and wherever you check to make sure a good product get's to the consumer. You can check that right when and where it rolls of the assembly line, when it comes off the boat, before it leaves your warehouse or some combination thereof.

There's good and crap products coming from overseas. There might be fewer crap products coming from here, but that's at least partiallly because production costs are high enough here that if you don't make a good product you won't survive long with the margins you have to work with.

I like USA products and buy them when I can, but you can get great products from both sides of both ponds.


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## Midnight Goat

I wouldn't say the hobby is dying but there is a substantial barrier to entry for us younger guys. Firstly layouts take up a good amount of space which most 20 something year olds don't have in their apartments or modest homes. Then you have the cost factor which can be substantial. I know there are deals to be had but they are definitely on the rare side. 

It is just plain tough to justify spending money on a train set when you have all the life "start up" costs in your 20's. I'm 30 and just now able to have a permanent layout in my house and dedicate a bit of disposable income towards the hobby. It cost 7300 bucks to deliver my Son last year! 

So no don't think the hobby is dying per say it's just not all that accessible (at least not right away) to the younger generations.


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## Cycleops

Midnight Goat makes a good point. Many younger people just don’t have the space, even for a 6x4 layout. But you can have a shelf layout which can even to stored away somewhere when not in use. The up side of that is you don’t need much stock or equipment to operate it so pushing down the cost. Maybe the magazines need to appreciate that and cater more for this type of scenario. Being more broadly based model railroading will attract the younger people into the hobby which is essential for its continued existence.


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## Fire21

Midnight Goat said:


> ...it's just not all that accessible (at least not right away) to the younger generations.


And it never has been. Young families just don't have space or money to spare. Even young single folks seldom have anything to spare. Neither group has ever had it easy starting out, and likely never will...it's called "starting out"! LOL. And other than for children, I don't think model railroading has ever been a hobby for young starters, it's generally something that people can enter as their lives begin to settle down a little.


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## Eilif

The space thing is huge for my generation and consider the additional effects of the trends away from home ownership among young adults.
https://www.npr.org/2016/07/26/487470787/fewer-young-people-buying-houses-but-why

Younger adults just don't value home ownership as much as the previous generations did. They're more likely to rent longer, even into when they have children and their incomes increase. If you're a renter you're far less likely to have space for a layout or be allowed to do the kind of wall-mounted arrangement that a apartment living might require. Even if you're renting a house, a layout is generally the kind of thing you build when your settled in your own home.

One more thing -and this is just me musing- how many folks entered or re-entered the hobby when they had kids? Folks in my generation are waiting considerably longer before having children and presumably longer before having the "kid excuse" for getting into railroading.


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## Old_Hobo

Eilif said:


> Younger adults just don't value home ownership as much as the previous generations did. They're more likely to rent longer, even into when they have children and their incomes increase.


Don't forget the ones that still live in their parent's basement until they're 35.....:laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn

Mine is moving out this weekend, she's 40.


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## Eilif

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Mine is moving out this weekend, she's 40.


Congratulations... I think? 



Old_Hobo said:


> Don't forget the ones that still live in their parent's basement until they're 35.....:laugh:


I understand the reasons for living at home, but at the same time I really don't. I left home at 18 to go to college and except for a few years later when I spent a summer at my dad's place to save some extra $ for my wedding I never lived at home again.

I'd have rather rented a friend's couch and worked half-time at Walgreens for a summer than leave Chicago and go back home. Which coincidentally is exactly what I did!


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## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Don't forget the ones that still live in their parent's basement until they're 35.....:laugh:


You know, most basements have a lot of room, and if the kid doesn't have to pay rent, and doesn't have a family to support...


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## Old_Hobo

I know.....my son lives at home, in the finished basement; he's 27 and works full time, he pays me a monthly fee, which I am putting away and will keep for him when he decides to leave and get a place of his own.....I'm his savings account!


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## Cycleops

Old_Hobo said:


> Don't forget the ones that still live in their parent's basement until they're 35.....:laugh:


Is that due the cost of property in the US? In the U.K. house prices have rocketed so much so that most can’t afford to buy on a mortgage at all.


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## Eilif

Cycleops said:


> Is that due the cost of property in the US? In the U.K. house prices have rocketed so much so that most can’t afford to buy on a mortgage at all.


Depends. Lots of factors affect this
-Though many areas are still quite a bit lower than they were 10 years ago housing has gotten ridiculously expensive in many areas, especially metros.

-Many of today's young adults grew up in the midst of the recession and saw what happened to their parents home values so housing isn't seen as being as good an investment.

-Recent graduates have record amounts of student debt as the cost of college has skyrockted.

-Many young people are more job-mobile than previous generations so getting tied to a home might not seem as appealing when there's a good chance you will not be at your current job for long.

Just to name a few.


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## Old_Hobo

Cycleops said:


> Is that due the cost of property in the US? In the U.K. house prices have rocketed so much so that most can’t afford to buy on a mortgage at all.


I am in Canada, and yes, that is a big part of the issue.....housing prices are high, and the government has changed the mortgage rules, requiring higher down payments and more restrictions as to who can qualify for a mortgage....


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## Cycleops

Old_Hobo said:


> I am in Canada, and yes, that is a big part of the issue.....housing prices are high, and the government has changed the mortgage rules, requiring higher down payments and more restrictions as to who can qualify for a mortgage....


That’s very interesting Old Hobo, thanks. In the U.K. the vast majority of young people simply can’t afford to buy a house, the government has cut tax (stamp duty, you have to pay it whenever you buy or move house) but most rely on sharing the parental home or renting.


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## Midnight Goat

Housing depends very heavily on the area. I'm originally from NYC and many of my friends still live at home despite earning 6 figure salaries. It's basically mandatory to have a dual income household to own a house there. Even if you can afford the mortgage you can't afford the taxes. My Grandmother's modest house was 50,000 back in 1952, if she were to sell today she could get 700-750k. 

I moved down to the Charlotte NC area and was able to get a 5 bedroom home on a 3rd of an acre for 164k. Taxes on it are about 1400 a year. Similar house and property back in NYC would be 1 million plus. 

NYC is not for me lol.


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## Vincent

Consider retiring to Mexico.


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## Gramps

Midnight Goat said:


> Housing depends very heavily on the area. I'm originally from NYC and many of my friends still live at home despite earning 6 figure salaries. It's basically mandatory to have a dual income household to own a house there. Even if you can afford the mortgage you can't afford the taxes. My Grandmother's modest house was 50,000 back in 1952, if she were to sell today she could get 700-750k.
> 
> I moved down to the Charlotte NC area and was able to get a 5 bedroom home on a 3rd of an acre for 164k. Taxes on it are about 1400 a year. Similar house and property back in NYC would be 1 million plus.
> 
> NYC is not for me lol.


A few months ago I was back up on Long Island for a wedding and all of my friends are paying over $20,000 a year in property taxes. The new tax law capping deductions at $10,000 is going to hit them very hard.


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## Midnight Goat

Gramps said:


> A few months ago I was back up on Long Island for a wedding and all of my friends are paying over $20,000 a year in property taxes. The new tax law capping deductions at $10,000 is going to hit them very hard.


Yep very common! My aunt and uncle own 2 homes one in Queens and one out near Greenport. They are basically retired and are going to get hit extremely hard. I will always feel nostalgic for "home" but quality of life down here in the Carolinas is infinitely better. It was nice being relatively close to Trainworld though! 

All that said I am doing my part to further the hobby. Both my 3 year old Daughter and 1 year old son love our O gauge collection. Have my dad to thank for it, he got me interested in the hobby as a kid and then passed his collection on to me when he passed last year. We also shared some of it with my niece and nephew who are also interested though to a lesser degree. 

Now that we took down our Christmas display that was on the dining room table (Wife finally got to me lol) I'm starting on the benchwork for a permanent display in our sunroom (prob around 4x8). Won't be very large but will be fun! My Mom has also agreed to let the Kids and I build another layout in place of my Dad's (she had taken it all down except the benchwork) but to a smaller degree (still pretty large just not in comparison to what my dad had).


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## Old_Hobo

Property taxes on my house run about $2,600.00 a year....


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## zerodameaon

fluffybunny said:


> First off I am 29.
> 
> I don't currently have a layout but when I was moving recently I found my HO trains that I had as a kid. That brought back memories of loops on the ground of my bedroom, and going down the street to the neighbors who had a layout in his basement.


Are you me? Though my layout was on some plywood on the front porch.




dbwr said:


> As someone coming back in to the hobby after 30 years,
> I'm a little shocked at some prices.


I felt the same way until I asked my dad how much he paid for a few of the diesels he bought me 20 years ago. Turns out although they look expensive now, they were pretty expensive 20 years ago as well. 

-------------

I am just getting back into the hobby now that I have time and space for a layout again and it doesn't appear that the hobby took a huge hit in the last 20 years. If it is smaller it at least seems more organized with better products and procedures available. I am just happy that I didn't try to come back only to discover the hobby was dead.


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## Oliver37

I am 38 (I think), just getting back into the hobby, and I believe the answer to the question posed lies somewhere in that fact. 

I loved trains as a kid, and my parents bought me a few small layouts - maybe 3x6 feet - and I enjoyed them for many years. I also had Brio and Lego trains before that, and while I don't remember whether I got my parents involved or they got me involved, there was certainly an interest that was fostered at a young age and stayed with me over the next 30 years. 

Fast forward to today, and this is happening: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=153426

From my perspective, the costs are actually low. For whatever reason, we ended up with Marklin trains when I was young, which were expensive and limited to just one brand obviously. When I started looking at the hobby again, I was thrilled to see that you could pick up rolling stock for $20 apiece, or less, used, and a loco for under $100. Plus, there were tons of manufacturers to choose from. 

Then I learned about DCC, and I was hooked. I believe the value of DCC is vastly undersold. Yes, it can be technical compared to a simple DC layout, but frankly, without it, I would have stopped at one loco and a circle layout, or not gotten back into the hobby at all. It is transformational, and for all of us 38-year-old kids out there, the single biggest differentiator between the hobby back when we were kids, and now. 

Looking at young families today, many are interested in trains. I see the same enthusiasm in my young nephews as I had. Time will tell whether distractions such as iPads and the internet, which weren't around when I was a kid, pull them away for good. 

With regards to no longer seeing train sets in toy shops and department stores, actually I think it's the toy shops and department stores that are disappearing! They are obviously being replaced by the internet, but there is so much out there online - to learn and buy - in a format that is pleasing to younger generations, that I don't see that as a bad thing. I mean, if you didn't see trains for sale on Amazon...THAT would spell the end of the hobby. 

By the way, I still purchase 75% of my supplies and rolling stock from a local hobby shop in Santa Clara, CA called The Train Shop. Their prices are fair (sometimes even low), and you can't beat the convenience. 

In closing, my daughter is experiencing trains at a young age, and she loves them. We've ridden real trains, we play with toys, and she loves to go in "the train room" (which is actually the garage) with me. Who knows where it will go, but the seed has been planted.


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## MichaelE

Shdwdrgn said:


> It could also just be an American thing. There's no immediate gratification with model railroads. You have to put a LOT of time and effort into building even a modest layout. Eventually the current generation will realize there is no lasting results from winning all those video games, while building a real object can stay with them for a long time.


They won't have enough motivation to build anything, let alone something as intricate and detailed as a model railroad.

If they can't see it on a video screen they won't have anything to do with it.


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## zerodameaon

Oliver37 said:


> Then I learned about DCC, and I was hooked.


This was part of what got me back into it as well. I knew solutions existed when I was a kid but they were so far beyond my skill. I looked into DCC a few years ago but they all seemed so outdated, but I looked again recently and found the ESU CabControl and that is what swayed me.



Oliver37 said:


> By the way, I still purchase 75% of my supplies and rolling stock from a local hobby shop in Santa Clara, CA called The Train Shop. Their prices are fair (sometimes even low), and you can't beat the convenience.


I recently found them, that store is great. My one complaint is I can't get my hours to match up with theirs, but I plan on making a trip today.


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## Stumpy

If this hobby is waning then who are all those people buying model RR stuff on eBay?


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## Waddy

Model railroading may be in a bit of trouble, but so are other pursuits that depend on people having a decent disposable income. I recently read that half the workers in the US make less than $34K per year, and 80% make less than $63K. That doesn't allow much disposable income, figuring home prices, health care costs and high taxes into that equation.

I think what will happen is that the guy who would've spent over $1000 per year on any hobby will maybe spend $300. So used becomes very popular, hence the ebay buyers. People will still get into hobbies, but will spend a lot less per person. And that is the reason the Chinese have saved model railroading; kept it in the price range of workers on tight budgets. If it were ALL American manufactured the market would be 1/10th the size it is currently.


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## Lee Willis

Ah geewz. The answer continues to be, NO!! It is a great hobby if you like it. That does not depend on how others like it!!

There are definitely enough other model railroads that there is a market for the productsd and services you need. Don't fret about it. Enjoy what you like.


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## Waddy

Lee Willis said:


> Ah geewz. The answer continues to be, NO!! It is a great hobby if you like it. That does not depend on how others like it!!
> 
> There are definitely enough other model railroads that there is a market for the productsd and services you need. Don't fret about it. Enjoy what you like.


Model trains will outlive us both, but it is a old man's hobby. Very few younger men buy trains. Women have very little interest. And it does depend on some extent on others also liking the hobby. Without a robust number of new-comers the industry will consolidate faster, and fewer new offerings at higher prices. Just how markets work. In fact, the heyday of both real trains and model trains is long past. But old guys like you and I have nothing to worry about. However, O scale trains might just be museum pieces by the time my grandson comes of age.


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## Booly15

*Concerns*



Gramps said:


> A few months ago I was back up on Long Island for a wedding and all of my friends are paying over $20,000 a year in property taxes. The new tax law capping deductions at $10,000 is going to hit them very hard.


I still live on Long Island, taxes are very high, and so is everything else, but that is not the reason this hobby is waning, when you look at the price of new products, (talking Lionel and such here) how the heck can you justify paying 1200 for an engine when people have to pay 2500 for a mortgage payment. I have loved this hobby since I was 4 years old, actually sold my first collection for help with the down payment on the house I am sitting in. But there has to be reasonable numbers made available to young adults who may want in, yes the cost of everything is up, but one has to wonder what the target demographic is of some manufacturers, I will pass my collection down to my son, and I hope he will do the same, but you shouldn't have to take a loan to set up a decent layout.


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## CTValleyRR

The facts don't back up the claims of pricing being an issue. On an inflation adjusted basis, model railroading locomotives are no more expensive now than they were 50 years ago. 

And most of the stuff being sold on eBay is new, not used.

Normally, I think it's ok to bring up old threads if there is a fresh perspective, but this one just needs to go away. The person who started it had some very odd ideas about what would make the hobby "better". Maybe for him, but not the vast majority of us. No wonder he hasn't been back in a while. Of course, he joined in 2011, made about a dozen posts, then disappeared for six years...


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## Old_Hobo

Plus, he made the thread, then booked it and never joined in the discussion.....a pot stirrer....

But he has visited this year though....(Feb?)


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## highvoltage

Old_Hobo said:


> Plus, he made the thread, then booked it and never joined in the discussion.....a pot stirrer....
> 
> But he has visited this year though....(Feb?)


Yes, he started this thread in February of this year. He came here in 2011, made a number of posts that year then didn't come back until 2017, one post that year. But like you said he hasn't been back.

Swiss precision tracks, good grief.


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## Stultus

*Trains are healthier than quilting, per my wife*

I went to two train shows here locally in February and I saw lots of younger children with parents (not grandparents) at both. The national show (Greatest Hobby on Wheels) was even crowded, elbow to elbow with kids of all ages everywhere. This is a good thing...

Now, when my wife and I attended the giant annual quilt show in the fall every year, we (in our mid-50's) are invariably some of the very youngest people there. It's *all* grandmothers... and very, very few children or grandchildren 

So, my jokes that my hobby appears to be healthier than hers!


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## Gramps

highvoltage said:


> Yes, he started this thread in February of this year. He came here in 2011, made a number of posts that year then didn't come back until 2017, one post that year. But like you said he hasn't been back.
> 
> Swiss precision tracks, good grief.


Maybe he meant that the future was bleak for him posting on model railroading.


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## blackz28

*my dad got me into it & later I indoctrinated my son & hes currently getting his 3 male cousins into it , my son is 22 his cousins are 15 10 & 3 *


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## Vincent

A friend was visiting today with his two-year-old son. After watching me for a while, he came over and started operating the trains (with supervision).

You just have to train kids right. (Pun intended).


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## Colorado1445

The thing I noticed with my generation is the following: Wages stay the same while prices go up. Like CT valley said, If we count inflation trains be the same price. However something I noticed is that when we go to college a trend that not only affects the model railroad community, but our civilization as a whole. The Experience gap. Jobs want people with experience and people are living longer. Why hire a 20 something year old new guy when a guy with 50 years of experience can do better for the same price. This really hurts the younger generation however dogged determination helps. I do not know a fix to this, no one does. However there is one thing I will say. Once I graduate college I am going all in, full determination to buy a home and get going on a permanent layout instead of these fun micro layouts I like to build. We are interested, we just are not settled in yet. Times sadly change, for better or worse. 


Also maybe start advertising clubs? There is a club near me that I am interested in. But I got a full plate right now. However, younger people will flock to places to where people can share their interests. 


Another rebuttal is the following: 
Why are you all blaming Video Games? The average person sits on the couch and watches TV for hours and yet video games somehow make people worse off? Video games can be a very good tool for not only railway hobbyists (Rail Simulator comes to mind) but as a teaching tool in general. There are really interesting things going on in the Video game world. Look at the Video Game "War of Rights" It is a Shooter based in the Civil War where you control one soldier and fight in lines with other people. Also Total War is a historical Battle game where you take control of your nation (from Rome to the USA during the revolution) and fight battles using the tactics of the past by controlling regiments. And there are even more video games that show the struggles of the past. While there are mind numbingly dumb/violent video games (Call of Duty), there is an opportunity that is being taken to where they can be tools for learning and immersion into the past.


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## Never Get Old

I just did my part. I just built a small coffee table N scale layout to get a friend and his 2 year old started in the hobby. They didn't have the time or the know-how (yet) to do it themselves, so I got them started with a DC throttle, Kato Unitrack, an industry on a spur track, some road material, and an Atlas loco and four cars. Simple, reliable, fun, and well above trainset quality that can be frustrating.

So, there are two new model railroaders, including one who I hope adopts it as a hobby for life as I have.

Oh, and I know one more idea why people have issues getting into and staying with the hobby: space. So many people are cramped already and just don't have room. That's why all I can have is an N scale coffee table layout. I can't afford a house or even an apartment big enough for more.

-Never Get Old


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## Vincent

Burp Just got back from a large, delicious meal at the railroad restaurant. We took one of our pastor's grandsons (He has two, born three months apart) there for the first time.

Two-year-old Christian had a blast, excitedly pointing to the trains (which are safely enclosed in heavy glass cases) and trying to grab parts of the HO lay-out of a Mexican desert town. We couldn't get him to eat because he kept wanting to look at the trains.

When it was time to leave, he went hysterical, screaming and crying "Choo-choo!" and his mother had to carry him out.

By George that boy is on the right track!


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## Vincent

This morning, a Mexican delivery man carried in some stuff. He was amazed at our train lay-out and we let him play with them for a while. He thought they were wonderful.

As long as new people get introduced to model railroading, it won't die out.


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## subwayaz

Dennis461 said:


> Did you all buy anyone a train set for Christmas?




Good point, or did you even see the Big Model Railroad spreads being advertised. Not really. So if Patents don’t enlighten their children and us older guys don’t with the younger folks. Then it will continue to decline. Trains are no longer and haven’t been the method of travel for decades now.
I think a good example of the direction of the hobby can be seen in the example that Kato has demonstrated in recent times. They are increasingly producing more Urban Rail offerings as times has gone on. Have you noticed; this is what most younger folks think of when it comes to Trains so that is what Kato is coming out with. Just a thought but one worth spending a moment in thought.
If you would like the hobby to remain what you remember; then it’s going to take getting out of your own head and putting it into action in the Community. So the youth knows of your past and has a desire to blend it into their Tech future.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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