# Electrical problem



## drooniem (Jul 24, 2013)

I have a little electrical problem and could use some help. I’m modeling HO and using Peco Code 83 track and turnouts (Electrofrog). My mainline is a modified figure 8 and part of the mainline run is double track. Everything was operating great until I reached the point where I’m rejoining the two tracks back into one along the mainline. I’ve watched polarity closely, but where the two tracks meld into one, I have some dead spots going through that last turnout and my DCC power unit indicates a short. I have power going directly to that turnout, soldering directly to the factory connector locations underneath the turnout. This is because once back to a single mainline it’s insulated there to enter a different power sector. What am I missing? Any help will be appreciated.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Cant give you a definitive answer without a pic or a track diagram. It sounds like you have powered the frog directly so that's likely the area you need to examine. Have a look at this document which should help you out: http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction sheets/Code 75 Concrete Sleeper Eng.pdf Although its code 75 wiring will be the same.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"Electrofrog" [DCC] Modifications..*



drooniem said:


> .. modeling HO and using Peco Code 83 track and turnouts (Electrofrog) ..
> 
> .. but where the two tracks meld into one, I have some dead spots going through that last turnout and my DCC power unit indicates a short ..


I believe that your switch track might be the problem..
Lets start here first..
I do not use Peco switch tracks..
There are also different versions when using the same switch track.. 
The Peco "Electrofrog" has an "E" in it's --> Part Number..









Question: (#1)
Are your "Frog Rails" --> Insulated ?? 









Question: (#2)
Did you modify the turnout to be [DCC] friendly, "Cutting" required jumpers ??
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm









Good Luck ..
......


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

My guess is that the frog rails of every ELECTROFROG must have
an insulated joiner so when the frog power changes it does not
short to the connected track.

Don


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"Required Insulated Joiners"*



DonR said:


> My guess is that the frog rails of every ELECTROFROG must have
> an insulated joiner so when the frog power changes it does not
> short to the connected track.Don..


Sorry Don, it is not a guess..
Like I had just illustrated in the above picture.. 
The "Frog Rails" --> Must Have Insulated Rail Joiners..








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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

The Peco electro-frogs need a bit of modification for DCC, yes ... the diagrams that ED-RRR shows are the the most common recommended modification ... cut two jumpers, add two jumpers, [or four], and require an addition power feed [either built in to tortoise throw motor or slide switch] .. but these mods require the turnout to be removed, and if the OP doesn't use throw motors with additional contacts , there is a very log "dead frog length"...
A second alternative is to convert them to an "insul-frog", by using a razor saw to cut just the frog away from power, on both side, approximately where the little square box is shown on ED-RRR's diagram.. this can be done on the layout without turnout removal, and I have used this method myself at one time ..the cuts can be filled in with bits of styrene for smooth running, and ordinary track joiners are used [not insulated] .. no jumpers cut or added, no power feed to frog added, no insulated joiners ...


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Peco - ElectroFrogs*



wvgca said:


> The Peco electro-frogs need a bit of modification for DCC, yes ...


Hi [wvgca].._:smilie_daumenpos:_
Like I had previously stated, I do not use "Peco" switch tracks..
I decided to do more research and found some very "Confusing Results".._:dunno:_ 

My next posting in this "Thread" is in regards..
- Insul Frog
- Electro Frog

Your assistance may be required, to help others..
......


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Peco Switch Tracks "InsulFrog" vs "ElectroFrog" in [DCC]..*

I found (x2) "Different" types of operating "Peco" switch tracks..
The switch track "Frogs" are wired totally different..

- Insul Frog
- Electro Frog









Peco "InsulFrog" Turnout Is [DCC] "Friendly" as is.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
- Has (x2) options for improvements
- Has (x1) option preventing shorts









Peco "ElectroFrog" Turnout Is DCC Friendly In Just a Few Snips.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
- Totally isolating all the "Frog Tracks" ..(Green)..
- Caution: --> Requires a separate "Track Power Supply" from a "Switch Machine"..(Frog = Power Routed).. 









I have "Changed" (Allan Gartners's) "ElectroFrog" drawing.. 
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
I have totally isolated the "Frog Rails" and "Point Rails"..
This is how Shinohara switch tracks function..
Warning:
The (x2) "Point Rails" require (100%) electrical contact for "All" of the "Frog Rails" to operate "Correctly"..









==================

Only A Suggestion:

If I was using going to purchase "Peco Switches" for [DCC] layout, I myself would use "InsulFrog" switches..
I would add the optional jumper wires for improved electrical contact..
I would also modify the "Frog" at this big "Trouble Location", to prevent electrical shorts..
I believe that this will result in an excellent operating [DCC] "Peco Switch Track"..








......


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

drooniem said:


> I have a little electrical problem and could use some help.


Did you get it working???
Just to clarify a bit ... with ElectroFrog Peco's, you don't have to modify them, just be sure that you have insulated joiners on the two inside track rails exiting the frog ... there are many installed without any modifications of any kind ...
The Electrofrog has both point rails , frog, and exit rails electrically tied together, insulated joiners are needed on 'factory' turnout frog exits because of this, 
The modifications normally found on the net, and elsewhere, are because they rely on physical contact of the point rail to the stock rail to conduct power, and sometimes they get dirty / corroded, so jumpers are added between the point rails and the stock rails, but then you have to remove the factory jumpers to remove the short in the frog itself ..and then you have a fairy long unpowered frog area that should have power fed to it seperately [tortoise, slide switch, etc ..] , but you still need the insulated joiners at the exit at this point .. unless you do more modifications ...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ed

I agree, unless the modeller has older 4 wheel power
pickup locos, Insulfrog Pecos are the way to go, for DCC
or DC. They are power routing and unless track connected
to the frog rail is fed from 'the other end', a modeller who wants
power on at all times would need to use track drops from the
frog rails.

I encountered the 'shorting' at the frog rail on one of my Pecos.
It turns out one loco had wider treads on the wheels and
spanned the frog rails. 

Two solutions:

Carefully file ONE of the frog rails so a wheel cannot touch
both at the same time.

or

As I did, use a tiny dab of clear fingernail polish. That has
worked for a couple years now.

Don


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Why I Hate "Threads"..*

There are (x2) different "Threads" discussing the "Same" subject matter
- But-
In (x2) different directions..

Keep Your Eyes Posted Onto These (x2) "Threads"..

turnouts?
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=71810

Electrical problem
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=74393
......


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