# Power / short(?) issue



## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I've read as many posts as I can and I still can't figure out my problem. 

Attached is a photo






I'm using Peco switches (I believe insulfrogs - there is a plastic piece in the track). When a locomotive passes through the cross over (from the outer track to the inner track and vice versa), it briefly stalls, my Digitrax scrolls 0 and Track Status flashes indicating a short. If I increase the speed, it doesn't stall. 

I have an identical setup on the other side of the layout (a crossover with the same switches); there are no issues. All four switches - the two on the crossover that stalls and the two on the crossover that works fine - look identical.

I did the quarter test and there is power (my Digitrax scrolls 0 and Track Status flashes indicating a short.)

I cleaned the track, and made sure there was no metal on the track.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Mike


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Since you can overcome the problem by speeding through the turnouts, you do not have a basic wiring problem (like getting the wrong polarity in one set of drop wires or like a reversing loop -- which needs special wiring).

I suspect that the a metal wheel (either a loco wheel or a metal wheel on a car) is briefly shorting at the frog -- by touching both rails where they ALMOST meet at a point in the frog.

(1) First, make sure that your turnout tracks and all rolling stock wheels are correctly spaced (by using an NMRA gauge)..

(2) Also check the guard rail spacing with the NMRA gauge. The job of the guard rail is to hold the wheel against the outer rail so that the opposite wheel will not wander across the frog and short out or derail. If the gap between the guard rail and the outer rail is too large, you can glue a thin piece of styrene to the outside of the guard rail to reduce the gap.

(3) The next thing that I would try is to run the train very slowly, so that it stops when the short happens. Turn off the power and use a flashlight to inspect where the wheels are sitting. See if a metal wheel is reaching across the frog and touching BOTH metal rails that meet at the frog. If so, and if the wheels and tracks are in gauge, then the turnout might be the culprit. The two rails that meet at the frog should have a wide enough plastic insulator between them that your wheels should not be able to reach both rails.

I have had this problem with some of my Atlas turnouts. I used a small triangular file to file the OUTSIDES of both rails where they meet. (The insides are where the wheels run.) This widens the gap between the two rails and prevents the short. Try not to remove any of the plastic point at the frog. I have heard of modelers who use a Dremel tool and a thin cutting wheel to widen the gap between the rails, but I have not tried this, myself.

Before you do any filing or cutting, try putting some clear nail polish on the rails - just the tiny area where they are too close. If the problem goes away you know that the rails are too close at the frog. But nail polish is not a permanent solution. It will wear off, and the problem will return.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I see the crossover but not the whole layout plan.

There should be no electrical problem using Peco Insulfrog
turnouts in a crossover unless you have a very short loco, perhaps only 4 wheels. They would stall on the plastic frogs. 

Do all of your locos encounter the same problem at
the crossover or just one?

If just one, check to see that all wires from the loco trucks to inside the shell are intact. They often break loose.

However, you can have shorting problems with crossovers
in certain track designs due to the creation of a reverse
'loop'. If that is the situation the tracks would require
a revised wiring plan.

Post a pic or drawing of your layout so we can see how
your crossover is used in your layout.

Don


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mtrr75 reminded me of the possible shorting
at the Peco frog rails. Note the very thin insulation
separating the rails. Often a wider wheel will
touch both rails causing a short.

Some have resolved this by filing down ONE rail
where they join.

Others use a simple dot of clear fingernail polish
on ONE rail. 

Either method will prevent the car wheels from
touching both rails thus avoid any shorting.

Don


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone - great responses. I'm attaching a copy of my track plan as requested.

I have no issues with the similar / identical crossover just west of the problem one; so I'll concentrate on the switch itself as the source.

Mike


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Your track plan eliminates the possible 'reverse loop'
thought.

That makes the crossover frog rail junction more suspect.
Do a simple test. Put a tiny dab of clear finger nail
polish on ONE of the rails where they come together
at the frog. Do this on both connected turnouts. Let it set. 
Then try your loco over that
spot. This resolved a similar problem on a couple
of my Peco Insulfrogs.

If that doesn't do it, 
Are you certain you have the right rail of the two
tracks connected by the crossover wired the same?
If not that could be source of short.

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

DonR said:


> That makes the crossover frog rail junction more suspect.
> Do a simple test. Put a tiny dab of clear finger nail polish on ONE of the rails where they come together at the frog. Do this on both connected turnouts. Let it set. Then try your loco over that spot. This resolved a similar problem on a couple of my Peco Insulfrogs.


Don's suggestion is good, but make sure that you paint the correct ONE rail with nail polish. Do not paint the rail that the wheel is running on when the problem occurs. Paint the rail that wheel is NOT running on when the problem occurs. This is the rail that the wheel is briefly touching (causing the short).


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## isoc (Jan 23, 2017)

Using Walther's 83 #5 turnouts. I had consistent problems with "stalling" on only two of them. I tried all the above suggestions, and nothing helped. Both were #5 lefts. But in several other locations on my layout, I never had a stall or problem with #5 lefts (or rights). After several hours of frustration trying to get the two offenders to work, checking voltage (power was always OK), using my track gauge, trying to adjust for any tiny anomaly and not succeeding, I surrendered, went back to the hobby shop and bought two replacements. No more stalling! Everything checked out OK with the originals: except when I ran a locomotive through them!

- Ted


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