# First Multi Locomotive Op Session ... ... ... ... First Collision!



## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Okay, I got my programming track set up and assigned unique addresses to the locomotives. Followed the suggestion to use cab numbers with my Digitraz Zephyr. 

Oh, man! On my simple temp oval - what a hoot and yet what fright and anxiety running two locomotives! Even using the "recall" key, it takes several seconds and button mashes to control these puppies - then it seems to take a few seconds for the controller to reestablish comms with the 'new' loco. And 5 - 8 seconds on HO oval ops is LOOOOOOOOONG. 

And remembering to hit the "Loco" the second time! ANybody else have trouble with that one first time out, or just me? 

A few whoopsies, a few "kill power" panics, a few deep breaths. No damage done, and already have plenty gray hair, so the new ones won't show. 

Was fun, though!!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I did not know the response time was so slow using that system. Powercab is instantaneous.

I run four, rarely five, trains at a time and have to have instant control over any one of them at any time.

Five to eight second response time when switching to a different locomotive is unacceptable for me.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Yes, I had that very problem this Saturday. I had my track restricted to one loop while I wait for the cross-over piece that will go on the inner two loops. I wanted to play anyway, so I tried to run two trains, one a GG1 and one a Mikado,. The steam engine runs so slow compared to the GG1 that I was constantly trying to slow the GG1 down or rear-ending the caboose on the steam train. I decided i need to use the other two throttles if I am going to have multiple trains running.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Did your Zephyr seem to have a delay or did you see instantaneous control when changing locomotives? I'll play some more, cause operator error is a high probability, and see if I notice that delay more. Some of it is just experience, I'm thinking.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Stejones82 said:


> Did your Zephyr seem to have a delay or did you see instantaneous control when changing locomotives? I'll play some more, cause operator error is a high probability, and see if I notice that delay more. Some of it is just experience, I'm thinking.


i think the delay was in my mind reacting more than the Zephyr proper. I would have it set for one speed and direction, then change the loco selected, but move the throttle the wrong way or select the wrong loco or even type in the wrong loco number. I know I kept typing the steam in as 2843 instead of 2483 and for some reason, the Zephyr tried to do what I told it instead of what I wanted. Computers are like that.

But I am serious about the extra throttles. The Zephyr lets you use two cheap dc powerpacks as throttles, and I had them for the grandkids to use. Now I know I need them for just me if I am going to run more than one train. I hope I am at least coordinated enough to do that. Now I know why people buy DCC units with two throttles built in.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OP wrote:
_"On my simple temp oval - what a hoot and yet what fright and anxiety running two locomotives! Even using the "recall" key, it takes several seconds and button mashes to control these puppies - then it seems to take a few seconds for the controller to reestablish comms with the 'new' loco. And 5 - 8 seconds on HO oval ops is LOOOOOOOOONG."_

No problems like that with the control system I use.
It's the *Roco z21 app* running on a Samsung tablet (controlling a z21start "box").

I normally keep two engines available like this (tablet is locked into horizontal position):








Switching to a 3rd or 4th or 5th (from my "library" of locos) takes 1 or 2 seconds.
One can just "flip left" or "flip right" on the "icon list" you see at the bottom of the above image.

Or...
Select from any one of the locos by just touching its icon, like this:









After using the z21 app, I wouldn't want a "pushbutton" system. It would seem like using DOS vs. using the Mac OS...


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You could also use a UT4 or UT6 throttle with your Zephyr, some times its nice for everyone to have their own throttle!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

And it gets even more fun when you have a continuous running train while
you do some switching operations that require some access to the
main.

Don


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> You could also use a UT4 or UT6 throttle with your Zephyr, some times its nice for everyone to have their own throttle!


I have been looking at getting DCC throttles to replace the two jump throttles. I was a little concerned about the children messing with the settings or trying to change locos they control. But it would solve the problem of them wanting to control the horn and bell, which they cannot do now.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Looks like $81 for a UT6, and ~$130 for a UT6D plus the receiver at ~$100 - $130. Makes that corded UT6 pretty attractive. Far cheaper than having to repair a damaged locomotive.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Stejones82 said:


> Looks like $81 for a UT6, and ~$130 for a UT6D plus the receiver at ~$100 - $130. Makes that corded UT6 pretty attractive. Far cheaper than having to repair a damaged locomotive.


Hmm, that isn't too bad a price. My layout is small enough that I only need corded ones and I can plug two directly into my Zephyr (until I put enough trains on to really need a booster). I can see where the radio throttles could be handy if you had a large layout though.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Yes, me too. Maybe someday I'll get the IR or radio, but don't need it. I too am running a 4x9-1/2 with an "Ell" and could easily wire in a a panel to take the loconet corded UT6 on the other side of hte layout so don't have to be super close. Or get a long RJ12 cable. 









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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

If you are using a corded throttle, look for the telephone curled cord instead of a straight RJ12 cable. Same wires, just that its curled which helps to keep from stepping on it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

J.Albert1949 said:


> OP wrote:
> _"On my simple temp oval - what a hoot and yet what fright and anxiety running two locomotives! Even using the "recall" key, it takes several seconds and button mashes to control these puppies - then it seems to take a few seconds for the controller to reestablish comms with the 'new' loco. And 5 - 8 seconds on HO oval ops is LOOOOOOOOONG."_
> 
> No problems like that with the control system I use.
> ...


But as usual, he's already bought something else, so this isn't helpful to him, unless you're trying to produce buyer's remorse.

I can't speak for Digitrax, but on MRC and NCE, it's no harder than on your z21, and if the loco is in the MRC recall stack, it takes fewer button presses / touches than the z21. After using touchscreens, I couldn't possibly USS those jn place of a pushbutton controller. It's like ths control panel in the Space Shuttle versus a Cessna. See, it's a matter of individual preference, not superiority.

For the OP -- did the system take any time to ACQUIRE the locomotive, or did it take time to RESPOND to the throttle command. If the latter, you probably have a high momentum set.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> For the OP -- did the system take any time to ACQUIRE the locomotive, or did it take time to RESPOND to the throttle command. If the latter, you probably have a high momentum set.


Well, as I readily admit, this was my first go and I will no doubt get better. Already the ops are going better. CAn't really answer your question as was a few days ago. I think it more the product of a newbie operator than technical difficulties. AGain, I am just glad I caused no damage to the locos or rolling stock. 

No one should use my OP to decide the rpos and cons of any DCC system. Give me a few months. Then I can speak somewhat intelligently - perhaps.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You should not need a booster, the throttle would plug into a loconet socket.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

I am getting better already! Three going and no collisions! 

Seems as though when you change locomotives, the throttle jumps to where the pervious Loco was set. That can be tricky.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

That doesn't sound quite right. 

Do you mean to say if you are controlling one locomotive at 30 scale MPH and another is already running at 40 MPH and you switch to the 40 MPH locomotive it slows to 30 MPH after you select that locomotive?


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

MichaelE said:


> That doesn't sound quite right.
> 
> Do you mean to say if you are controlling one locomotive at 30 scale MPH and another is already running at 40 MPH and you switch to the 40 MPH locomotive it slows to 30 MPH after you select that locomotive?


Well, again, I am still learning and have more play time to get under my belt. 

What I am pretty sure I saw was: 

1. Given: Matching three locomotives speed so that relative speed is the same, i.e. the three stay same distance separated. 

2. To do this, I had to set each loco at a different throttle percentage - makes sense, they don't all travel at exact same speed. 

3. So: 

Loco A set to throttle 30% (not actual settings, only for examples). 
Loco B set to 40%. 
Loco C set to throttle 50% 

4. Now, Active loco is "C" and I want to switch to "A" to take it into a siding and stop it. 

4a. I can't change the throttle setting yet, because then "C" would slow drastically

5. So, I hit (Digitrax Zephyr) 'Loco' ; 'recall' ; " recall que position for A" ; 'loco' 

6. Loco A then jumps from 30% to 50% which on a small oval, is blood-pressure-raising. I then have to adjust the throttle for "A" to match again. Not the end of the world, but tricky. 

- - - - - - - - - 
Hmmm ....... 
I wonder. If I set up a 'dummy' loco address into the recall que, could I select the 'dummy' (i.e. no actual loco, just an address), before I select 'A' and then adjust the actual throttle position. And then select 'A' - - wouldn't be exact, but maybe closer. 

With a physical (dial) throttle, I don't see how this changing of locomotives could behave any different. I know, an additional throttle would make a huge difference, but DCC is billed as being able to control multi trains from one throttle. Sure, it can and obviously does, but it is tricky in actual operation.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I don't know anything about the system you use, but that behavior is unacceptable for any railroad running multiple trains simultaneously. You shouldn't have to have extra throttles for a system that is supposed to be able to control more than one train independently from another.

If that is truly how that system operates it is a glaring fault.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Do you mean to say if you are controlling one locomotive at 30 scale MPH and another is already running at 40 MPH and you switch to the 40 MPH locomotive it slows to 30 MPH after you select that locomotive?


I have the DCS51 Zephyr but the new one DCS52 would be the same. Once you RECALL a running locomotive it instantly takes on the settings that are on the panel - ie.) forward/brake/reverse and throttle. See pic. The work around would be to make sure that the throttle is in the relatively proper location to "match" the speed of the running loco before completing the transfer.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

MichaelE said:


> I don't know anything about the system you use, but that behavior is unacceptable for any railroad running multiple trains simultaneously. You shouldn't have to have extra throttles for a system that is supposed to be able to control more than one train independently from another.
> 
> If that is truly how that system operates it is a glaring fault.


You use NCE, right? Is the throttle not a fixed physical throttle? I'm still in my 30 day return window . . .

On your throttle, when you change locomotives, the throttle 'remembers' where the newly selected locomotives throttle setting was?

I mean:

loco A at 30%
loco B at 40%

B is active. When you change to select A, your throttle 'remembers' that A is at 30%? 

How does a physical throttle dial do that?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I do use the NCE Powercab.

Settings for each locomotive are locked-in no matter how many times you cycle through the locomotive list. Settings are not changed until you make them yourself. Each locomotive is truly independently controlled. All setting are memorized until you change them.

I had no idea the Digitrax unit behaved in this manner. I was considering it, but I purchased the Powercab. I'm glad I did. That's a hell of a way to design a controller for independent operation.

If it were me, I would send that back and order the NCE Powercab, or any other controller that doesn't do that. That's ridiculous.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I use MRC, and the throttle remembers the settings for each loco. It doesn't change based on a different loco's setting just because you acquire it. The throttle knob doesn't have a min and max position... rotating it one click moves the throttle 1 step from its current setting for that loco. I wonder if the fact that the throttle has a min and max value is responsible for that.

Digitrax is a quality system (although I know people who complain that it isn't very intuitive). While it may be a "feature", it's not a good one. You should probably seek out some experienced Digitrax users for help.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

I also use the Digitrax Zephy and it behaves exactly how Stejones82 described it. I saw this as normal behavior and understood it would work that way, If I am running trains on multiple tracks, this is not a problem because the change in speed due to throttle setting is not as critical to me then. If I am trying to run multiple trains on a single small oval, this can be a problem unless you have a high momentum setting where it takes the engine a while to change speed to match the new throttle setting (my Mikado apparently has this setting since it takes a long time to speed up or slow down). I did not know other systems behaved differently since I assumed the forward/reverse switch and the throttle dial would always be physical and when you switched throttle it would take the current physical setting of those two switches.

This is one reason i was looking at the ESU ECoS command station. It has dual throttles and I assumed the throttle dials behaved the same way. Now I have to check further into other this and other brands to see if the throttle dial is an electronic control or a physical one.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

That might be Zephyr peculiar thing since it has a real throttle lever that has marks on it. Its sort of stuck going to what ever you have the throttle set to when changing Locomotives. The utility throttles and the 602 all use a digital pot that has no real markings as to physical location, hence it can keep the speed with the loco and not the throttle.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Steve Rothstein said:


> I also use the Digitrax Zephy and it behaves exactly how Stejones82 described it. I saw this as normal behavior and understood it would work that way, If I am running trains on multiple tracks, this is not a problem because the change in speed due to throttle setting is not as critical to me then. If I am trying to run multiple trains on a single small oval, this can be a problem unless you have a high momentum setting where it takes the engine a while to change speed to match the new throttle setting (my Mikado apparently has this setting since it takes a long time to speed up or slow down). I did not know other systems behaved differently since I assumed the forward/reverse switch and the throttle dial would always be physical and when you switched throttle it would take the current physical setting of those two switches.
> 
> This is one reason i was looking at the ESU ECoS command station. It has dual throttles and I assumed the throttle dials behaved the same way. Now I have to check further into other this and other brands to see if the throttle dial is an electronic control or a physical one.


While I hear what you're saying about this being normal behavior for Digitrax, I wouldn't consider it acceptable -- your loco should ONLY change its throttle input when you tell it to. Perhaps you can live with that, but it's a deal-breaker in my book.

Also, I would advise you to very carefully investigate the ECoS system and make sure it's really what you want. I haven't used it, but I have used Bachmann's Dynamis system which is made by ESU, and very similar to the ECoS. I found it unintuitive and overly fiddly, especially compared to the beautiful simplicity of the MRC system I own. The Dynamis also has some severe limitations in its ability to be upgraded, which was a big problem for me. ECoS may be totally different, but I'd pull that string before buying.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> While I hear what you're saying about this being normal behavior for Digitrax, I wouldn't consider it acceptable -- your loco should ONLY change its throttle input when you tell it to. Perhaps you can live with that, but it's a deal-breaker in my book.
> 
> Also, I would advise you to very carefully investigate the ECoS system and make sure it's really what you want. I haven't used it, but I have used Bachmann's Dynamis system which is made by ESU, and very similar to the ECoS. I found it unintuitive and overly fiddly, especially compared to the beautiful simplicity of the MRC system I own. The Dynamis also has some severe limitations in its ability to be upgraded, which was a big problem for me. ECoS may be totally different, but I'd pull that string before buying.


I think the reason I saw the Digitrax behavior as normal is that I started with a DC throttle and it has the throttle as a physical control. Until i looked at DCC, every train or slot car set I had ever seen had throttles that worked that way, so I did not question it. Then when I switched locos on it, it made sense to me that my throttle was set at a certain setting and it was telling the new loco to go to that throttle setting. Trying to run multiple trains on a single oval made the problems with this obvious, but I had not considered it could work any other way. That made a system with two throttles seem like a much bigger advantage than it might actually be. Since we have discussed it here, I agree that with modern electronics, there is no reason the dial position should have any relationship to the set point of the throttle. I have actually seen this with a modern radio in my truck, where I can turn the volume dial when the radio is off and it picks up the volume I left it at when I turn it on. My mind had just not connected the two options until we discussed it. Looking through the internet after I signed off the forum last night, I see that even Digitrax throttles behave the way they should, where the dial is not set but used as an indicator to move the throttle in the loco only. It makes me wonder if Digitrax deigned it this way to be more intuitive for beginners in DCC to use the throttle. Since I can plug one of their other throttles in and use the Zephyr as just the command station, they could have thought this was an easier way to get a beginner into DCC and he could move up to a better throttle if needed. I guess it could also have been a way to sell more throttles later, but I prefer to think better of people and companies motives when I can.

Thanks for the tip about the ECoS. I am researching a lot of options for future growth. What had really caught me eye on it was the ability it has to show a diagram of the turnouts and their positions that you can just click on with a stylus to move. My current layout has Kato switches for the control of the turnouts so I can see the lever to know how it is set. I am still looking at how I will control turnouts in the future and when I will use decoders and DCC control for them. I also like the idea of computer control but I need to learn more about that. There are certainly a lot of changes in the hobby since my father did it when I was young and it has opened up a lot of options to consider.

On a side note, for those in the Philadelphia area, I am now more amazed than I ever was before at the model train layout they had on display at the Franklin Institute when I went there. I am not sure I could do what they did even with DCC and they did it all with just DC control.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Yeah I understand the "that's just how things work" viewpoint. Honestly, if I were in your place, I probably would have made the same assumption. Fortunately, I came in from the other end, opting to convert to DCC after initially writing it off as out of my budget, specifically because people showed me what DCC was capable of.

How long has that layout been at the Franklin Institute? I was just there in early Feb 2019 (was in Philly while my son did his interviews / auditions for admittance to UPenn and Temple), and don't recall seeing it. Too bad, because I love a good layout.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> How long has that layout been at the Franklin Institute? I was just there in early Feb 2019 (was in Philly while my son did his interviews / auditions for admittance to UPenn and Temple), and don't recall seeing it. Too bad, because I love a good layout.


I think the right question might be when did they get rid of it. I was born and raised in Philadelphia and the Franklin Institute was my favorite place in the whole city growing up. Back in the 60's, they had one room dedicated to train stuff, with a very large steam engine on display that they could move back and forth about ten feet each way. They had another small engine I don't remember, plus an HO layout that I am guessing (from memory and trying to convert from a kid's image to real) was about 24x40 They had a small control booth for it and ran it once an hour, IIRC. Last time I got to the museum to see it was probably the late 90s and they still had it then. I did not see any train room when I was looking at their web site lately, but it was one of my favorite places in there as a kid.

I just looked on the web site and they still have the steam locomotive there. It is a Baldwin 60000, 350 ton train. The layout is gone, and they now have a display with a model train running in a glass case to teach what kind of cars there are on a train. I hope to get up there to visit family in June (assuming we can). I plan on stopping in at the museum again, dragging my kids at least through the heart, then the train room.

Did your son do okay getting into Temple and Penn? Two good schools located in very bad parts of town.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Yeah, I definitely remember the steam loco. I remember also being very disappointed in how run down some of the exhibits were.

My son did get into both Temple and UPenn, but then Penn State played the financial trump card. He's going there on a full scholarship (we pay about $810 per semester, out of state tuition).


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Yeah, I definitely remember the steam loco. I remember also being very disappointed in how run down some of the exhibits were.
> 
> My son did get into both Temple and UPenn, but then Penn State played the financial trump card. He's going there on a full scholarship (we pay about $810 per semester, out of state tuition).


That would do it, and Penn State is also a good school.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Steve Rothstein said:


> That would do it, and Penn State is also a good school.


Yeah, I wasn't going to argue.  And since he is a Music Education major, there isn't any difference in the quality of the program.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Steve Rothstein said:


> Hmm, that isn't too bad a price. My layout is small enough that I only need corded ones and I can plug two directly into my Zephyr (until I put enough trains on to really need a booster). I can see where the radio throttles could be handy if you had a large layout though.


Steve, just thought I'd let you know that modeltrainstuff.com is having a 10% off everything sale this weekend. Presumably the Digitrax throttles are on sale, too.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Stejones82 said:


> Steve, just thought I'd let you know that modeltrainstuff.com is having a 10% off everything sale this weekend. Presumably the Digitrax throttles are on sale, too.


Thanks. I am sure I can find something I want there if the throttles are not included.


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