# Suggestions on scenery?



## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Hey folks, trying to get some suggestions on the scenery for this layout. Aim is to learn technique and not really replicating any real layout.

Here's what I have so far.











Train runs well, turnout is operating manually for now. DC wiring.

Next steps I'm considering are ballasting, mountains on left (where I have the black foam added for starting it. Both tracks will go in tunnels and come out the other way. I'm also going to build bridges with 2mm balsa wood because I miscalculated the height and need really thin bridges for clearance. I'll remove the black foam and put the bridges.

Not sure what else I can do here. I'm lost after this much. One thought was to add a waterfall in the mountains and a pond/lake in the left oval. On the right, by the turnout, put some structures. Not sure what.

Also wondering if the straight track on the front or back can have a small station or something else to add interest?


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Adibis, I like your simple track plan. It will make for some fun continuous running.

Mountains are always a good scenic thing to build, but not always easy to work in. Waterfalls are fun attractions too. If you make a small lake, I assume the waterfall will feed it. Most likely you'll have to make the lake with no outlet unless you want to place culverts under the tracks somewhere, or more bridges. Perhaps you could make a small campground at the lake.

I see no room for a station except maybe at one of the outside corners, but it would then stand alone...not associated with any other structures you might install. What is the purpose of the turnout on the right? You could make that a station siding with a few other buildings around the station. Granted, the train would have to nose or back in, but I assume you'll be running only one train.

I can't offer any more...I'm not a designer at all. Good luck, and good work so far!


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Fire21 said:


> Adibis, I like your simple track plan. It will make for some fun continuous running.
> 
> Mountains are always a good scenic thing to build, but not always easy to work in. Waterfalls are fun attractions too. If you make a small lake, I assume the waterfall will feed it. Most likely you'll have to make the lake with no outlet unless you want to place culverts under the tracks somewhere, or more bridges. Perhaps you could make a small campground at the lake.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Campground sounds like an amazing idea. And yes, I was thinking of waterfall feeding the lake, no outlet. 

For the turnout, again, intent was to learn to wire it and make sure I can get grades and smoothness correct. This is my first layout and didn't want too many complications first time around.

My initial plan was to have a small industry by the turnout. Train would back in and pick up cargo and then reattach to the rest of the rolling stock and continue on.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Welcome to the Forum. I like your track plan and I hope your grades are not too steep. If you want a station somewhere other than the siding you could put a small one in either the upper or lower right corner. The station would be on a curve which is not unusual in the real world and maybe you could add a few small buildings to fill out the area. Good luck and keep posting.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I'd recommend these YouTube channels for various inspiration. Ive found them to be helpful..

Marklin of Sweden, Kathy Millatt, Luke Towan.


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

I did the first bridge. Very first time doing anything like this so tips on how to improve this would be really helpful.

Made it out of 2mm wood sheet. Painted with acrylic.


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Severn said:


> I'd recommend these YouTube channels for various inspiration. Ive found them to be helpful..
> 
> Marklin of Sweden, Kathy Millatt, Luke Towan.


Thanks. I've been looking at Marklin's channel. Crazy skills.


Gramps said:


> Welcome to the Forum. I like your track plan and I hope your grades are not too steep. If you want a station somewhere other than the siding you could put a small one in either the upper or lower right corner. The station would be on a curve which is not unusual in the real world and maybe you could add a few small buildings to fill out the area. Good luck and keep posting.


I've kept it at 2%. Barely scraping by with the clearance on the bridges.

Corner would work I guess. I was originally thinking of another water region and a small boat but I can put it in the lake in left oval.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

For covering the plaster cloth I use spackling compound, not drywall joint compound. Put a glob on the plaster cloth, dip your finger in some water, and smooth it out. It works really well. The particular brand I use is DAP Fast Dry Premium Spackling Compound.








DAP Fast Dry 16 oz. Spackling Paste 18440 - The Home Depot


DAP Fast Dry Spackling is an innovative, professional-grade spackling compound that allows you to finish 8X faster than traditional heavyweight spackling compounds. Its uniquely formulated to provide strength and durability like a traditional heavyweight spackling while drying fast to allow you...



www.homedepot.com


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

flyboy2610 said:


> For covering the plaster cloth I use spackling compound...


Thanks. Just in time (I guess?)

Ended up doing this part today. Had no intention initially but seemed like a good place and idea.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Looks a bit like Mount Crumpit.


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## VilledeGrace (Sep 6, 2021)

I have always worked in clay and drawings to work up concepts first. Clay is particularly helpful in letting your imagination push past the flat surface.


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

VilledeGrace said:


> I have always worked in clay and drawings to work up concepts first. Clay is particularly helpful in letting your imagination push past the flat surface.
> View attachment 566175


You're quite an artist! I'll probably end up with blobs of clay all over the layout. I'm trying with taped paper balls for now and if I like it, just put plaster cloth on it.


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## VilledeGrace (Sep 6, 2021)

adibis said:


> You're quite an artist! I'll probably end up with blobs of clay all over the layout. I'm trying with taped paper balls for now and if I like it, just put plaster cloth on it.


That works and keeps it light. I use the Owens Corning pink foam for almost everything, toped with Active Paper Mache from Hobby Lobby to form the details. Good Luck!


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

I use plaster cloth over... pretty much whatever... for terra forming. I cut it into workable sizes, dunk the pieces into a tub of warm water and get to it.

After the first piece or six there is always gobs of plaster in the bottom of the tub that I use to smooth over and cover up what I call the "white burlap effect"... where you can see the holes in the cloth.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think a lot of approaches work with various pros and cons. For example this is what I've tried and my take on what I found:

- foam. Various kinds. Works but can be a pain to cut, rasp, smooth... Makes a huge mess with all the foam bits that go everywhere ... then this is usually covered with something else...

- aluminum window screen . Works but you have to drape it over some kind of scaffolding you've built up first. Of course this must also then be covered...

- covering: paper soaked somehow in white glue... Brushed on or sprayed on. Cover above foam or more likely screen.. Works but may give way if you put your weight on it after it dries... But perhaps not catastrophically...

- another covering & general sculpture... Sculptamold. This is a ground paper and plaster concoction. It definitely deserves it's place as a go to product for many diorama people. Smear it on the foam or screen forms above to cover, can worked as it dries to smoother surface. This one is good stuff. The result is hard but it retains some flex.... Has many other uses or approaches than what I just described no doubt. I've done the two mentioned with good enough for me results...

- a couple of companies market what to me amounts to a heavy aluminum foil sheeting with a thin layer of polyfil on one side. Spread this over your forms above and maybe follow up with sculptamold or similar. The idea is to crush it up first and then straighten it back out somewhat. This produces ultimately to my eye a decent stone faced looking covering. You crunch it up a little or a lot before applying as desired ... I've got the woodland scenics version and it does work. But I keep thinking: Could I just have used my screen here, or some heavy duty aluminum foil I got from tbe grocery store? Etc...


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Thanks. I'm currently on a mix of plaster cloth for most areas, sculptamold to cover up gaps and shape things and foam and crumpled paper as the base structure underneath.

Taking a break from scenery to try some ballasting. This is hard work, and I _think _I am getting better.... ?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Ballasting is my most least favorite aspect of model railroading. I don't mind scenery though it is rather tedious. What keeps me going is the vision of what it will look like when completed. Ballast, not so much.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Ballast application is tedious and error prone for me in that I have to do a lot post glue is dry clean up. Maybe I'll get the hang of it one day.


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## 498cm3 (Jul 30, 2021)

I could offer a tip or two about scenery:

When and if you are putting static grass, have it ready as far as rocks, retaining walls, foundations, etc. 
Why I say that is in my very limited learned-as-I-went experience, to get a natural seamless look, put the grass up to it instead of putting things on top of the grass. Because that is how it will look, like something sitting on the grass. 
So having your sections ready will give better results in the end.
I wasn't systematic when I first went at it, and burned COUNTLESS hours patching. 
So things do get added & removed from time to time, nothing at all to worry about. Just do as you like and blend it right back together.

Homemade tufts work wonders, and can be useful for blending in.

Buildings: provide a good foundation where appropriate, like the prototype.
I like plaster of paris with concrete and aging pigments. I tried styrene, it's ok for small pads once painted.
But the plaster I really like. If it cracks, I like that even better.

Prepare and seal, then bring your other stuff up to it, grass, dirt, turf, gravel, etc.
Then set the building.









Sent from my moto e6 using Tapatalk


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

498cm3 said:


> I could offer a tip or two about scenery:
> 
> When and if you are putting static grass, have it ready as far as rocks, retaining walls, foundations, etc.
> Why I say that is in my very limited learned-as-I-went experience, to get a natural seamless look, put the grass up to it instead of putting things on top of the grass. Because that is how it will look, like something sitting on the grass.
> ...


Thanks a lot for the tips. I'm still ballasting as time permits. Looks like I didn't have enough glue on my cork roadned. When I added alcohol and all the water mixed woth glue, it started peeling off.

I managed to somehow salvage it by pushing in T pins deep to keep the cork in place, redo all the ballast on top. Seems to be holding for now.

I agree with the general sentiment that ballasting is the lest enjoyable part so far.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

If you mean the ballast floated away when you applied the glue mixture... There's of course 17 thousand ways to skin a cat...

I can't say Ive had too much trouble with that but if I did I might be tempted to try spreading a very thin layer of glue on the cork sides, apply a thin initial layer of ballast there and even push it in to the glue...

Let that probably just partially dry... Why wait till dry? And anyway then top it up, that is the ballast. Wet it then down with alcohol and use a dropper or pipette or similar to apply the watered down glue.

I slightly prefer modge podge here but use both that and Elmer's. A 1 part glue, 2 parts water and a few drops of dish soap is one formula. But I've experimented and mixed or replaced water with alcohol for example. And honestly I'm just making it up as I go. I mean the glue has to flow into the ballast. so whatever works but it has to dry and hold. Then any pooled glue you can get up with a towel. Then the proof is in the pudding once it dries.

My issue is it's messy, I get bleep all over the tracks, yes I brush etc, it still seems to need quite a bit of clean up. Maybe I am doing it wrong so take above with a grain of salt ...


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Thanks for the tips! I don't mean the ballast flowed away. My cork roadbed was glued to insulation foam with latex caulk. When I put all that water mixed glue on the ballast, it created a hardened ballast layer on cork as expected. 

At the same time, somehow, the cork separated from the foam. So, I had ballast and cork glued together well but lifted away from foam in few sections.

My hunch is that I didn't have a strong bond between the cork and foam because either too little caulk or I just need stronger adhesive instead.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I can just about highly recommend this guy's discussion on scenery glue. (Paepercuts)

He does to my ear have a slightly off sounding delivery. I have even wondered if he's passing his voice through some kind of "encoder" for purposes only known to him.

Anyway he goes over both the classic watered down white glue, and a matte medium glue he describes how to make. In fact I am making it right now... By Monday or so it should be ready!






Note follow the recipe he pinned in the comments.

The appeal of this matte medium glue is according to him it's sprayable. Something that I have not found to be really true with the watered down white glues. But it according to him has other positives.

I guess I'll find out!


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

It's true caulk is not exactly glue. I used some kind of dap window caulk. It dries but is rubbery, somewhat. Tbe bond is non trivial. It's not exactly glue though. Another possibility is to rough up the foam under the track with a wire brush. That's just an idea. Also I think you need to ensure the cork is flush and spread the caulk out a little. But I did mine over an earlier effort with ground turf stuff on it and haven't really had a problem and I wasn't all that careful about it.


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Thanks for the video link. Spraying is whole another issue. 

For N scale, the ballast is so fine that my spraying bottle ended up blowing away half the ballast 

I think I'll need to get one of those fine mist bottles.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

It's a real problem because the pressurized commercial offerings all have acetone in them. 

Whereas the pump sprays clog but before that don't really make a spray.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

I recommend Liquid Nails _for Projects_ for gluing down road bed to the base and the track to the road bed.

Once the ballast is down and groomed I use a wash bottle to wet the ballast with the alcohol and then apply the 50/50 water/glue mix. Just don't squeeze the bottle too much or you'll get the fire hose effect and wash your ballast away.









Wash Bottle: 8 oz Labware Capacity - English, 250 mL Labware Capacity - Metric


Wash Bottle, 250mL, Integrated Spout




www.grainger.com


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## VilledeGrace (Sep 6, 2021)

adibis said:


> Thanks for the video link. Spraying is whole another issue.
> 
> For N scale, the ballast is so fine that my spraying bottle ended up blowing away half the ballast
> 
> I think I'll need to get one of those fine mist bottles.


 I use eye dropper with watered down Mod Podge. You just need to presoak with Isopropyl to remove water tension in the glue. Works like a charm.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Liquid nails is excellent for gluing foam pieces together or to a wood base, but for roadbed and track I use caulk, just a thin amount squeegeed around with a credit card or similar.


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Yeah. I'm not sure why the caulk lifted up in a few places. Could have just been that I did not put weight on it after glueing so it just popped up? But, it's almost done. Not pretty but finished.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Caulk is not meant to be an adhesive. It is a sealer and does not take stress well. It's fine as a _fixative_, but any pulling, twisting, or other movement is not going to work for caulk very well.


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Yeah, I am going to try liquid nails on next layout.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If foam is involved, make sure its Liquid Nails FOR PROJECTS, or at least says its safe for use on foam. Regular Liquid nails will eat right thru foam.
And silicone sealant caulk is plenty strong, but does require some weight. You raid you pantry for cans of stuff to put on the roadbed or track to hold it down for a bit. Then if you need to make a repair, a knife can be used to cut the connection and the stuff will pop off.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I've like everyone made and used these various watered down white glues, Elmer's, mod podge etc... I slightly prefer the latter but they seem to all basically work. Ive also tried Luke Towans recipe, made my own, and I've diluted with water and alcohol.. tried different ratios, added a little soap, etc. All these things work but I still couldn't get the stuff through a spray bottle without the spray being heavy (not exactly fine spray) or eventually clogging.

Anyway above couple of posts ... I ran into that paepercuts vid on the topic and so tried his recipe that uses matte medium. 

Most of the work involved buying the ingredients and finding a sealable clean glass jar. The other hard part was waiting. I waited a week after mixing up the ingredients as suggested in the vid.

This week I finally had a chance to try the results and it seems the real deal. It goes on very thin and seems to readily soak into the scenery I want to glue up while leaving when dry no noticeable residue.

And it goes through a spray bottle producing a fine mist.

I like it so much I might even hit guys tip jar... maybe.

To be fair, I've used it exactly twice in two days to glue up some sand mixed with colored grout mix, and touch up some ballast. So not s lot of miles...


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## adibis (Sep 2, 2021)

Severn said:


> I've like everyone made and used these various watered down white glues, Elmer's, mod podge etc... I slightly prefer the latter but they seem to all basically work. Ive also tried Luke Towans recipe, made my own, and I've diluted with water and alcohol.. tried different ratios, added a little soap, etc. All these things work but I still couldn't get the stuff through a spray bottle without the spray being heavy (not exactly fine spray) or eventually clogging.
> 
> Anyway above couple of posts ... I ran into that paepercuts vid on the topic and so tried his recipe that uses matte medium.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Which recipe is this?


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

The vid demonstrates here. The actual recipe is the pinned message in the comments by the author of the vid, the one I used ..







Here's what I like about it, an example.

I put some colored sand down in some little piles reminiscent of something that might be in a stream bottom. So I've an idea of making a creek or stream. And since I don't know what I'm doing -- I'm experimenting.

Ok so the sand is down how I want -- I then used a fine mist spray bottle to coat this pile with the mixture above without disturbing it at all. I then drizzled the mixture over it using something like a pipette... which all sank into the sand easily.

And the next day its hardened and the sand appears as a put it down ... 

I could not get that to work with the watery glue mixtures... and so I'm quite happy to have found an approach that appears to do so.


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## Norgale300$$ (Dec 9, 2021)

I think that what you are doing is just right. You're taking it slow and thinking about what you do before you do it. Everything looks fine to me and you will develop more ideas as you progress. No two people build the same way anyway so you really can't do anything wrong. Keep doing the research on youtube and you'll be fine. That's pretty much where I get my info.


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