# How exactly do Marklin HO's reverse anyway?



## 400E Blue Comet

None of my Marklin's reversing systems are broken as far as I know, but I'm curious, what makes them reverse? I figured out that pressing the throttle will make them change direction, but it doesn't seem to work the same way as O gauge things. Even if you unplug the transformer and press the dial it will go the other way when you turn them back on, so how does this work? That's something a DC train could do, but Marklin HO's are AC, not DC.


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## DonR

If you are asking about the Marklin HO AC, one poster in
the link thread says that a power burst (??) is what
causes the loco to reverse.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/60465/750682.aspx

I have no idea what a 'power burst' might be, other than
a current interruption with a spurt of juice when restored.

Don


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## Howard1975

I have had Marklin trains in the past, I have some experience with them. The Marklin system is similar, but not the same as Lionel 3 rail. Both traditional Lionel and Marklin HO are 3 rail, and AC powered, and both need some kind of reversing mechanism. With marklin in the early days, it was strictly mechanical, later an electro-mechanical device, then later a simple electronic chip, and later a command control system. 

Marklin uses a 0-16 volt AC power source, to run the trains. The Marklin transformer is also designed to give a momentary burst of 20 volts AC power, which trips the reversing mechanism system. I can't really explain it any better, you would need to talk to the experts, or take apart a vintage Marklin (made before the electronics, when it was still mechanical) and watch what happens. Marklin generally started switching over (from mechanical to electronic) in the early to middle 1980's. 

Marklin will not reverse from an interruption of electricity, like traditional Lionel does. It will only reverse from the 20 volt burst of electricity. 

Hope that helps.

Howard


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## EMD_GP9

Hi 
As Howard mentions Marklin uses 0-16 volts AC to run the trains with a 20 volt pulse to reverse the direction.
As Marklin uses AC current there is no permanent magnet as there is with DC trains and instead there are coil windings for both the armature and field parts of the motor. 
DC motors use a permanent magnet for the field part.
To enable the motor to reverse rotation direction there are TWO field windings in opposite directions and a changeover relay is used to select which winding and therfore forward or reverse is used.
The relay has a spring which prevents the relay operating at the normal 16 volt maximum for train running and only operates at about 20 volts.
The relay operates a mechanism which with one pulse selects one direction coil and the next pulse selects the opposite direction.
Later products have an electronic reverser which does the same job !
The pulse from a Marklin controller depends on the controller used but can be produced by pressing the end of the control lever down therefore lifting the speed pointer or by turning the control knob to zero and then a bit more.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Colin


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## 400E Blue Comet

Oh I get it. But how does the train stop when you reverse it? If you give it a pulse of 20 volts, wouldn't the train go flying?


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## EMD_GP9

> If you give it a pulse of 20 volts, wouldn't the train go flying?


It has been a long time since I saw a reverser work but as far as I remember when the relay coil operates under the 20v pulse the arm which selects the forward or reverse coils is deflected away from the contacts while moving and only makes contact again when normal current or no current is restored. It is not a good idea to reverse the loco at speed !
I think the older controllers could be operated at any speed by pressing the end of the control lever but later controllers had a knob which has to be returned to zero and then further to stop the loco and then reverse it.
Regards, Colin.


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## Howard1975

EMD_GP9 said:


> It has been a long time since I saw a reverser work but as far as I remember when the relay coil operates under the 20v pulse the arm which selects the forward or reverse coils is deflected away from the contacts while moving and only makes contact again when normal current or no current is restored. It is not a good idea to reverse the loco at speed !
> I think the older controllers could be operated at any speed by pressing the end of the control lever but later controllers had a knob which has to be returned to zero and then further to stop the loco and then reverse it.
> Regards, Colin.




That is very true, with the newer controllers you need to stop the train first, before you can reverse it. I believe with the older controllers, it was possible to reverse the train while at speed, which is never good for any model train. I don't care what scale or gauge you have. It can be N scale, American Flyer S scale, 2 rail HO, Marklin 3 rail HO, Lionel O-27, LGB, etc. Reversing at speed can damage or destroy the mechanism. 

It's always best to slow the train and come to a complete stop, before reversing any model train. I believe the newer Marklin controllers are safer in that regard, because of the way the reversing works. Especially if you have kids (or any guests) running the trains. I recommend the transformers with a plastic body, either blue or white in color, to operate conventional (vintage) Marklin models. The white transformers are the newest design, and are still being sold. The blue plastic transformers date from the 1970's and 1980's. Before that, in the 1960's and earlier, the transformers had a blue metal body, some of which have the older style reversing system. 

Naturally you can use whatever you want, it's your layout and trains. Just be aware of the pros and cons of each type. If you want to operate any recent Marklin locomotives (1980's and newer, with an electronic chip), it's highly recommended to use the newest white transformers. They are designed to correctly operate the newest locomotives. Those modern electronics are far more delicate compared to the mechanical reversing mechanism. The electronics can burn out from a surge too high. The white controllers are better regulated, so it does not damage modern computer chips. Some of the older transformers (especially vintage metal bodied) can easily put out 30 volts, when you activate it's reversing surge. That 30 volts will quickly destroy a delicate computer chip. The mechanical reversing mechanism from older locomotives, on the other hand, will not be harmed or destroyed from a 30 volt surge.

If you only operate vintage locomotives with a mechanical reversing mechanism (generally made before 1985) you can basically use any Marklin transformer, as long as it's working properly and is safe (not a fire hazard). Check that the power cord is not frayed or cracked, and the transformer does not have signs of water damage, things like that. 

It's quite normal for a vintage locomotive, with a mechanical reversing solenoid, to momentary jump a inch or two, when it gets the 20 volt surge. If it does more then that, it really needs to have the spring tension of the reversing solenoid adjusted, so it does not jump. If the locomotive is adjusted to perfection, it should not jump at all, or just a fraction of an inch. It will not go flying, unless something is very wrong. Even poorly adjusted locomotives, should only jump for a few inches, when they see the 20 volt surge. It should not take off and keep running. 

The modern Marklin locomotives with the electronics inside, do not jump when you give it the reversing signal. At least the ones I have seen.

Howard


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## mikek

Mum picked up my first trains in Germany, right after WWII, and I mean right after. Nice two rail (might have been three) passenger train and a switcher, lots of track. The controller had a dial and a button. Pressing the button would reverse the train. Pressing the button while the train was running would give it a boost of speed. The switcher had a button on top that changed its' direction. 
My grandmother gave away all my trains while I was out of the country for a couple of years to a home for retarded kids. Don't know how many got killed by the system, don't care. Granny was removed from my Christmas card list, too.


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## lajrmdlr

There is a Marklin Yahoo Group: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MarklinTalk/info


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## 400E Blue Comet

Howard1975 said:


> That is very true, with the newer controllers you need to stop the train first, before you can reverse it. I believe with the older controllers, it was possible to reverse the train while at speed, which is never good for any model train. I don't care what scale or gauge you have. It can be N scale, American Flyer S scale, 2 rail HO, Marklin 3 rail HO, Lionel O-27, LGB, etc. Reversing at speed can damage or destroy the mechanism.
> 
> It's always best to slow the train and come to a complete stop, before reversing any model train. I believe the newer Marklin controllers are safer in that regard, because of the way the reversing works. Especially if you have kids (or any guests) running the trains. I recommend the transformers with a plastic body, either blue or white in color, to operate conventional (vintage) Marklin models. The white transformers are the newest design, and are still being sold. The blue plastic transformers date from the 1970's and 1980's. Before that, in the 1960's and earlier, the transformers had a blue metal body, some of which have the older style reversing system.
> 
> Naturally you can use whatever you want, it's your layout and trains. Just be aware of the pros and cons of each type. If you want to operate any recent Marklin locomotives (1980's and newer, with an electronic chip), it's highly recommended to use the newest white transformers. They are designed to correctly operate the newest locomotives. Those modern electronics are far more delicate compared to the mechanical reversing mechanism. The electronics can burn out from a surge too high. The white controllers are better regulated, so it does not damage modern computer chips. Some of the older transformers (especially vintage metal bodied) can easily put out 30 volts, when you activate it's reversing surge. That 30 volts will quickly destroy a delicate computer chip. The mechanical reversing mechanism from older locomotives, on the other hand, will not be harmed or destroyed from a 30 volt surge.
> 
> If you only operate vintage locomotives with a mechanical reversing mechanism (generally made before 1985) you can basically use any Marklin transformer, as long as it's working properly and is safe (not a fire hazard). Check that the power cord is not frayed or cracked, and the transformer does not have signs of water damage, things like that.
> 
> It's quite normal for a vintage locomotive, with a mechanical reversing solenoid, to momentary jump a inch or two, when it gets the 20 volt surge. If it does more then that, it really needs to have the spring tension of the reversing solenoid adjusted, so it does not jump. If the locomotive is adjusted to perfection, it should not jump at all, or just a fraction of an inch. It will not go flying, unless something is very wrong. Even poorly adjusted locomotives, should only jump for a few inches, when they see the 20 volt surge. It should not take off and keep running.
> 
> The modern Marklin locomotives with the electronics inside, do not jump when you give it the reversing signal. At least the ones I have seen.
> 
> Howard


I have 2 older Marklins, a 0-6-0, and a G 800 (Which I'm trying to figure out how to fix), but I also have a Marklin HO Good Luck Pig. It says it runs on conventional Marklin transformers and the one I'm using is a 280. It's been working so far, even the reversing system, and it doesn't look like it's being damaged. Could this transformer work? I think the Good Luck Pig was made in 2000.


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## Howard1975

400E Blue Comet said:


> I have 2 older Marklins, a 0-6-0, and a G 800 (Which I'm trying to figure out how to fix), but I also have a Marklin HO Good Luck Pig. It says it runs on conventional Marklin transformers and the one I'm using is a 280. It's been working so far, even the reversing system, and it doesn't look like it's being damaged. Could this transformer work? I think the Good Luck Pig was made in 2000.



The Marklin 280 transformer is perfectly fine for the older locomotives, but I would not trust that transformer with a locomotive made in 2000 (your Good Luck Pig). Your transformer might be 60 or even 65 years old. I would not use that with modern locomotives. It's okay with all vintage locomotives (made before 1980), and to power accessorizes (electric turnout motors, lights, etc). Unless the accessory has a digital chip inside it. 

I just checked, that Good Luck Pig has a Delta electronic chip inside it, which was a cheap version of Marklin Digital. Yes it will operate from a conventional Marklin transformer. But Marklin is really talking about using their modern white plastic bodied transformer, not the old blue transformer you have. That blue transformer is not recommended. Recommended is the Maerklin #6646 transformer, which is for the North American market, and is rated at 32 VA, and 120 volts. If you wanted to continue using your 1950's era blue transformer with the Digital locomotive (Good Luck Pig), you really need to carefully check the output voltage of your transformer with a good multi-meter. For safety of modern digital locomotives, it should not output more then about 20 volts, when the reversing surge is activated. 

And I would also recommend taking a very good look at the condition of the inside and outside of the entire transformer, including the power cable (including where it connects inside case), and all the various components inside the case. Yes that means taking it apart. You need to check the insulation of all the wires inside the case, to make sure they are intact and in good condition. 

Another point to consider, is how fast the circuit breaker, protection circuity works. A modern white (or grey) colored transformer, will turn off in less than a second, in case of a short circuit. The blue ones might take up to eight seconds. That is plenty long enough to destroy the chip, if a short circuit happens. Even a simple derailment can cause a short circuit. 

I hope I'm allowed to post this link to the Marklin-users forum, there are many knowledgeable people there. Someone asked a question similar to your question, is it safe to use the old blue transformers with new digital locomotives. There were many replies, some going into a lot of helpful detail. 

http://www.marklin-users.net/forum/yaf_postst22717_Blue-transformers--Are-they-reliable-enough.aspx


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## Rusty

Are all marklin locomotives three rail? I am thinking about getting marklin big boy so I don't know which one that will run on two rail?


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## 400E Blue Comet

Rusty said:


> Are all marklin locomotives three rail? I am thinking about getting marklin big boy so I don't know which one that will run on two rail?


Most of them are. Z scale doesn't use a third rail and I don't think 1 Gauge does either, but if it's Marklin HO then assume it's 3-rail. I have a Lima engine which looks similar to a Marklin except it's 2-rail, though.


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## Howard1975

Rusty said:


> Are all marklin locomotives three rail? I am thinking about getting marklin big boy so I don't know which one that will run on two rail?


Yes, all HO scale Marklin locomotives are 3 rail, AC powered. Marklin introduced it's HO scale 3 rail AC powered system, all the way back in 1935. For the first 20 years, it used a solid 3rd rail (like Lionel 3-rail). Later in the early to middle 1950's, Marklin switched over to a 3 rail track with center stud contacts, replacing the solid 3rd rail from earlier years. But it's still a 3 rail track system. 

They also made a cheaper version called Primex, which is also 3 rail, AC powered, like a normal Marklin HO train. 

Marklin also produces Z scale trains, which are 2 rail, DC powered. Operate at a maximum of 10 votls. 

Marklin 1 gauge (same as G gauge track) is 2 rail, usually AC powered. 

Marklin also makes Trix trains, called Trix in HO, and Minitrix in N scale. Both are normal 2 rail, DC powered trains. 

And Marklin also owns LGB, which is 2 rail, DC powered on G scale track. 

And sometimes you might find Hamo trains, they were HO scale 2 rail, DC powered, that Marklin made in the 1960's and 1970's. 

But anything in HO scale that says Marklin on it, will be 3 rail, AC powered. 

Hope you are not confused.

Howard


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## 400E Blue Comet

Rusty said:


> Are all marklin locomotives three rail? I am thinking about getting marklin big boy so I don't know which one that will run on two rail?


If you can see it, look for the contact on the bottom. If there's no contact in the middle it's 2-rail and probably DC. If there is a contact in the middle it's most likely 3-rail and AC.


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## Ricky Tanner

You want to get the Trix HO version for DC with RP25 wheels. Great runner!


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## 400E Blue Comet

Okay I measured the voltage. At full throttle the reversing surge is about 24 volts. However, it puts out only about 20.5 just under full throttle. At 0 throttle it puts out 14-15. Is this okay?

Also, how can I tell if my Good Luck Pig's electronics are still intact? I don't have any Marklin Delta system controllers.


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## roguico

400E Blue Comet said:


> Okay I measured the voltage. At full throttle the reversing surge is about 24 volts. However, it puts out only about 20.5 just under full throttle. At 0 throttle it puts out 14-15. Is this okay?
> 
> Also, how can I tell if my Good Luck Pig's electronics are still intact? I don't have any Marklin Delta system controllers.


The reversing surge is 24 volts according to documentation supplied be Märklin, the 20.5 volts at full throttle is a little high.


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## LateStarter

It's a miracle...
A 6 year-old thread is somehow resuscitated and revived.


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## MichaelE

We have the best life support equipment available...

It's called Old Threads at the Bottom of the Page we didn't really need to see again. Oh, sorry, it's called Recommended Reading. My mistake.


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## Dan Olson

400E Blue Comet said:


> None of my Marklin's reversing systems are broken as far as I know, but I'm curious, what makes them reverse? I figured out that pressing the throttle will make them change direction, but it doesn't seem to work the same way as O gauge things. Even if you unplug the transformer and press the dial it will go the other way when you turn them back on, so how does this work? That's something a DC train could do, but Marklin HO's are AC, not DC.


I seem to be having the same problem with a BR 44 locomotive, I ordered from Trainz. I tried making it go forward with the digital transformer, but it still ran in reverse. Is it because it's an analogue model? It says that it was made in "Western Germany", meaning it's definitely before reunification. If it's analogue, is there a way I can make it go forward, if I don't have the proper transformer, or do I have to order the proper transformer?


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## Old_Hobo

A proper transformer would help, for sure….

MichaelE will chime in soon, I would imagine….


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## MichaelE

Sorry, I know nothing about Märklin AC locomotives.

You can ask your question here:

Railroads of Germany

The above is an English speaking forum I belong to. 

If your Deutsch Sprache is passable, you may also ask here:


Stummis Modellbahnforum

This is strictly a German forum, but many do speak English. The trick is finding one that does. If you write out your question in English without even trying in German you may not get a reply.

Good luck.


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## EMD_GP9

See posts 3 and 4 for an explanation of how the reversing mechanism works.
If it is marked "Western Germany" then it is probably analogue so will need a reversing pulse from a suitable controler to operate. 
The "Marklin Users Forum" may help which is English speaking dedicated as the name suggest just to Marklin.
Colin.


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