# Super O Restoration



## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I am restoring a post war set up, most of the track and switches (6) are toast, I'm definitely staying with the super O, some of the track especially on the trestles is warped and obviously no good, other pieces are rusted ...is there a way to tell if they're saveable, is there anyway if testing them (possibly with an ohmmeter) or such to determine viability??....any input appreciated


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Rust can be removed by wire brushing or soaking in vinegar. It depends on how much corrosion you have on the rails. The ties are plastic. If you have a heat gun, the track may flatten out on a level surface. Weight can be used too. 
You test them by hooking power and running an engine on them. One good thing is that the center rail will stay isolated with the plastic ties.

Track normally has surface rust. This can be removed. Heavy rust leaves pits and a rough rough ride if on the top of the rail.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thank you... I'll try the vinegar


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Have any pictures? Normally, a green scotch brite pad or a brass dremel will fix some rust. I never had a good experience with vinegar. The track needs to be dried totally inside and out if going that route. Some here still use super O. Its a grwat looking track but the conection peices are $$$ as are the switches.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'm soaking now, I think their probably junk.... center looks good but rails are pretty rusty...1960 basket case project..lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea, not too good. Lol. Save the vonecters and soak those in evaporrust. The track looks way pitted.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks ... pretty much what I thought...good thing this track is pretty plentiful out there


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Take some more pictures of the layout. I see lots of activation buttons and lots of power!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Actually only the tops have to be cleaned to be functional. If you want it to look like new thats a different matter. I would use Evapo Rust if I wanted them clean.

Pete


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

So if the track shows continuity with an ohmmeter does that mean it's good?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Retro Engineer said:


> So if the track shows continuity with an ohmmeter does that mean it's good?


It should work. The center rail is just solid metal, maybe all copper or maybe an alloy. Make sure the tops and ends are clean. Outside rails need the tops plus inner ends clean to assure good contact With the track pins.

Pete


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

sjm9911 said:


> Take some more pictures of the layout. I see lots of activation buttons and lots of power!


Many of those buttons were never connected most operated remote lights and such, I was 8 or 9 years old when my dad and his buddy built this thing, both transformers worked and you could run two trains simultaneously, it looks like they're wired together somehow, I'm trying to replace piece by piece, not going to worry about gates and other ancillary devices for now


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Assuming you can get the top rail surface clean, you will also need to clean the ID of the outer rails (where the pins go) to get good continuity between sections. I used tube brushes for that with good results on some 80 year old tubular track. See post 12 of this thread. Not sure what size brush you will need.

(2) How Do You Clean Tubular Track Tube ID? | Model Train Forum

Note that the tin plating is most likely gone from the outer rails and any that is left will probably be removed if/when you take abrasives to it. So you will need to keep it in a dry (non-humid) area as bare steel will otherwise rust again.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Norton said:


> It should work. The center rail is just solid metal, maybe all copper or maybe an alloy. Make sure the tops and ends are clean. Outside rails need the tops plus inner ends clean to assure good contact With the track pins.
> 
> Pete


Thanks Pete, maybe I can save some of it


Lehigh74 said:


> Assuming you can get the top rail surface clean, you will also need to clean the ID of the outer rails (where the pins go) to get good continuity between sections. I used tube brushes for that with good results on some 80 year old tubular track. See post 12 of this thread. Not sure what size brush you will need.
> 
> (2) How Do You Clean Tubular Track Tube ID? | Model Train Forum
> 
> Note that the tin plating is most likely gone from the outer rails and any that is left will probably be removed if/when you take abrasives to it. So you will need to keep it in a dry (non-humid) area as bare steel will otherwise rust again.


Thanks so much


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Retro Engineer said:


> Many of those buttons were never connected most operated remote lights and such, I was 8 or 9 years old when my dad and his buddy built this thing, both transformers worked and you could run two trains simultaneously, it looks like they're wired together somehow, I'm trying to replace piece by piece, not going to worry about gates and other ancillary devices for now


Unfortunately, if they ran off the track, you should figure it out beforehand. Otherwise if you want it running again, you may have to take the track apart. Depends how, and what was hooked up. Running the train in a loop isnt a problem, adding electrical stuff in later could be. All depends on what you want for a final outcome.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh, take some pictures anyway, inquiring minds want to know. Lol.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I will.....thank you


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I just restored 50 pieces of Super O last December. I used a quart of Evapo-Rust and a quart Quart of 91% isopropyl alcohol in an assembly line process. I bought two elongated plastic tubs at the dollar store and filled each with the liquids. Then I submerged 4 to 6 pieces of track in the Evapo-Rust for half a day, turning them over every now and then. After the Evapo-Rust I put them in the IPA to rinse them while the next batch of pieces sat in the Evapo-Rust. Evapo-Rust specifies a water rinse afterward. But after watching tinplate rust before my eyes after a cleaning and water rinse, I used the IPA to rinse the track to avoid re-rusting while drying. When finished, I ran the used Evapo-Rust through a coffee filter and funnel back into it's bottle. There's really not a lot of rust to use up the Evapo-Rust chemical and I've used it on other rusted parts since. Still have about a pint and a half.

While in the Evapo-Rust bath, I used some small dental brushes to clean inside the ends of the receiving outer rails. It was evident rust was in there from the color of the gunk that came out with the dental brushes. I used a small brass brush to pre-clean especially rusted areas before and during the Evapo-Rust bath. I used the brush to burnish the outer rail pins and the ends of the center copper rail.

The Evapo-Rust will not clean the copper center rail of tarnish. To me, this was desirable as I didn't want a bright center rail. And cleaning the inside of the outer rails really worked as all 50 pieces were in a single loop with only one lock-on powered including 6 isolated rail Super O track straights. There were no other power drops and the entire loop seemed to have a good electrical connection all around. See *This Video*.

I ordered the Evapo-Rust from Home Depot for delivery to the store. And the IPA came from Walmart. Total ~$15 for both. I have a commercial source for reproduction outer rail pins and center rail clips if you need them. Much better than the offers I saw on eBay. Let me know and I'll post the link. Also, I have bought a dozen reproduction center rail clips at a local train show for $5 as well.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks, excellent idea on the tubes....I was looking around the house for something like that to hold the vinegar when I was cleaning them yesterday


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> I just restored 50 pieces of Super O last December. I used a quart of Evapo-Rust and a quart Quart of 91% isopropyl alcohol in an assembly line process. I bought two elongated plastic tubs at the dollar store and filled each with the liquids. Then I submerged 4 to 6 pieces of track in the Evapo-Rust for half a day, turning them over every now and then. After the Evapo-Rust I put them in the IPA to rinse them while the next batch of pieces sat in the Evapo-Rust. Evapo-Rust specifies a water rinse afterward. But after watching tinplate rust before my eyes after a cleaning and water rinse, I used the IPA to rinse the track to avoid re-rusting while drying. When finished, I ran the used Evapo-Rust through a coffee filter and funnel back into it's bottle. There's really not a lot of rust to use up the Evapo-Rust chemical and I've used it on other rusted parts since. Still have about a pint and a half.
> 
> While in the Evapo-Rust bath, I used some small dental brushes to clean inside the ends of the receiving outer rails. It was evident rust was in there from the color of the gunk that came out with the dental brushes. I used a small brass brush to pre-clean especially rusted areas before and during the Evapo-Rust bath. I used the brush to burnish the outer rail pins and the ends of the center copper rail.
> 
> ...


Ah, that was my problem mike, how fast they rusted while drying years ago. Also, I have used brass wire pipe cleaner in a drill to do the holes on lots of tracks. And I still sware the electeical conduting jell stuff that prevents rust helps on the pins. No data, but I use it.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Which brand gel do you use?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The electrical section of any home improvement store would carry it. I just wipe some oil on it. Nothing fancy.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

So oil not gel?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Amazon.com: NO-OX-ID A-Special- Electrical Contact Grease- Keeps Metals Free of Rust and Corrosion- Part# 10203 : Industrial & Scientific


Buy NO-OX-ID A-Special- Electrical Contact Grease- Keeps Metals Free of Rust and Corrosion- Part# 10203: Contact Cements - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com




Something like this no ox sold in home depot also


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Ordered.....thanks!


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

And it begins!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Looks much better!


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Lol ... Confucius say...thousand mile journey begin with first step


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Copper connector after 1 hour soaking in vinegar...use or replace?


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I would hit it with a scotchbrite pad.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

My local dollar store (Dollar Tree) has a three brush set: They're tad bigger than a toothbrush (maybe stainless, brass and nylon). The two metal brushes should be in your two kit for tasks like this. Especially removing built up rust rust before and during the soaking.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Or a dremal with a wire , preferably brass , wire wheel. Use goggles and lond pants. Some use a bit of CA glue on the brush center.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Outside cleaned up pretty good, unfortunately it's the inside of the clip that makes contact...hard to see the condition


sjm9911 said:


> Or a dremal with a wire , preferably brass , wire wheel. Use goggles and lond pants. Some use a bit of CA glue on the brush center.


Thanks.... looking more and more like I'll just buy some better ones.... that's alot of work for all that track


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> Outside cleaned up pretty good, unfortunately it's the inside of the clip that makes contact...hard to see the condition
> ...


I warned ya'  

On tubular, some use a steel, micro pipe brush; a good solution. But as you know, the inside of the Super O rails are much smaller. Hard to find a pipe brush to fit.

I used a nylon dental brush, a few bucks at the supermarket, less at the dollar store. Give the inside of the ends a wet swirl with vinegar, submerge the track and come back every now and then to give the ends another swirl while the track is soaking. You'll gauge the inside by what the brush looks like when it comes out after a swirl.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Good idea, I'm going to scrape the inside a little with a dental plaque cleaner too but the track I bought seems pretty good.... I'm trashing all the old track


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thats the problem with older track. Its cool but requires a lot to get it up an running. Mine is way older, but also cool, took me a few days with a palm sander with a scotch brite pad attached and the dremal to get it looking and working nice. The good part is the more you clean it and have good conductivity, is the less you will have problems down the line. My new layout is still beeing built slowly. I haven't touched it since last year.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> … Thanks.... looking more and more like I'll just buy some better ones.... that's alot of work for all that track


Not all is as it seems when buying used track online. They will likely need some maintenance as well. And if they do, the inside contacts will need it too.

Go back to post #18. You can use vinegar in place of the Evapo-Rust. It's not a lot of work just some diligence and patience. I had the luxury of working from home. So every hour or so I'd give 'em a nudge in the solution and brush the ends. Then rotate to new sections every 12 hours. In less than a week, I had finished 51 pieces. And they all performed admirably. I was very happy with the results.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks... I'm definitely going to clean each tube before assembly...only want to do this once


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## lorettospringfield (Feb 18, 2015)

Retro Engineer said:


> I'm soaking now, I think their probably junk.... center looks good but rails are pretty rusty...1960 basket case project..lol


Use it for something else a yard scene with a caboose office, flat carload maybe.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Honey I shrunk some tracks ...


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Not a bad idea... maybe save a few pieces


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Track can take a lot of abuse. It is only connected on each end and the top touches the wheels.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Yes ....but the condition of my track goes way beyond abuse...50 years in damp basement...lol


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I notice some of this track has copper connector pins on both rails and some has plastic on one side.... what's up with that?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> I notice some of this track has copper connector pins on both rails and some has plastic on one side.... what's up with that?


To insulate (depower) a center rail. Used for station stops, occasionally powered sidings, etc. I just remove the clip.

Here's my schematic for station stop. When the train hits the section, it connects the isolated outside rail. That completes power to the AC-DC 12V regulator and turns on the delay relay. The delay relay begins its count down (o to sec.'s). When the delay expires, the relay switches to its normally open position connecting center rail power to the isolated center rail. The train will move on. Lionel made a copper center rail attachment in lieu of a full blown power track (see the pic). I just solder a wire to the center rail. If you ever attempt that, ask first. A couple of tips so as not to melt the plastic.

The video shows the station stop in action (among other activitiy).


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Plastic is for an isolated rail. Super O switches have them for auto switching. It was connected at one time to a switch.

For the 112 switch the plastic pin goes to inside rail of each track at the y.
If I read the design correctly a metal one will activate the switch and eventually burn it out.
These isolated rails are connected to terminal post to the switching lever. The switch operates by grounding out a coil so if metal was used the grounding is continuous and smoke is inevitable.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks .. I'm only hooking up track and six switches (for now)....so I only have to worry about it at the switch.. the rest of track has connectors in both rails correct?


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Where do I find to buy the rail connect pins?..many of the old ones won't come out


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Just received parts from Red Lion train depot who were kind enough to include actual instructions on how to put this thing together....now I know how this thing works...sure helps!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A rail pin is 1013-17. They should pull out with pliers.
An insulating rail pin is 32-20
A bus bar for center rail is 31-7
AN insulating bus bar for the center rail is 32-20
These are the parts numbers.
The train tender or trainz may have them in stock

The rail pins are 1/16 by 1/32 square stock maybe you can find it in steel or brass.
!/16th square stock may work.
Mike said he has a source for the bus bar.

On the Y of the switch, outside and bottom rails use the normal rail pin.
The inside rails to the y are insulated pins.

Super O is high class so parts are scarce compared to tubular track.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I knew this was coming  All new reproduction pins and clips *Here*. I used them. $6 flat rate shipping IIRC.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks so much for your help, now that I have instructions I have a pretty good idea what's going on, I didn't build this set up so I'm basically new to this


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> Thanks so much for your help, now that I have instructions I have a pretty good idea what's going on, I didn't build this set up so I'm basically new to this


It would seem to me, that the pins have an up and down side to them. The track rail is flat on top but rounded on the bottom. The pins seem to mimic that shape. So orientation is important. Also, I had a devil of time inserting the pins half way into the curves. Just couldn't do it - bent the pins no matter how I tried. In the end, I cut pins in half. They seem to work fine.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'll watch for that in the future, all I've done so far seem tight with good continuity, most of the old ones won't come out so I just ordered new ones


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> ... most of the old ones won't come out so I just ordered new ones


That statement is confusing me (I think T-Man too). Do you mean you can't salvage pins from sacrificial track to reuse them? Obviously, if you want to replace a pin, the old one must come out. You could try the old "plumbers' trick" on the pins. When a fitting just won't unscrew, try to tighten it to break the "seal". Then loosen it. Might work on the pins. A few taps inward may break the rust seal to enable pulling them out. Don't know, haven't tried it. Didn't need to.

Anyway, I ordered batches of 25 from the website; pins and clips. I should have ordered the fiber insulating pins. I'm missing several insulating pins for my 7 isolated straights. You'll need them for your switches; to implement the anti-derail feature / self tending mode. Trust me, you'll want that feature. If you order pins, get two 10-packs of insulating pins for your 6? switches.

This guy's switches don't have it. Obviously they're manual switches so he must physically throw a switch. But they're not self tending. So he has to throw switches into the correct position for trains entering from a diverging route. Self tending switches do it automatically. You'll see it. He gets into it around the 35 sec. mark.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

My old track is no good I'm not trying to save it, some of the pins come out..most don't, I've ordered new pins and bus clips , some of the newer track I've purchased has the hardware with it some doesn't.... it's always a crap shoot when buying used parts but now that I have an overall idea of the configuration and the parts involved I'm good..... always a learning curve


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Pretty cool video....yes I'm definitely replacing the original 112 remote switches....only need two more


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Checking in again, Mike I was confused with your pin diagram, but I got it figured out.
So what is wrong with the switches? Do no throw them out!
I was investigating my 112 switches to see how to test them etc and pass it on to you. I am sure Mike or myself would take the old switches if you would rather replace them.
I did find an empty part envelope that had adapter pins to substitute an 1122 switch instead. I am not sure if they are made today or just extremely rare.











Before doing any testing I would suggest a cleaning and hand move the slide to ensure it is not stuck. You do not want to break the plastic white gear. One of mine is broken.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'm actually going to just try and use the old control switches (I've replaced the bulbs) I believe they're still good....if you're talking about the actual track switches I don't believe they're saveable...if you still want them I'll send them to you for shipping cost


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea , switches and anything else old can be restored. Just takes time and imagination. Everything has a use. Even if its not you using it.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I love a challenge I am interested. SJM? Mike? He has 6 we could split?
I have a bad right hand I want to repair and one of these could be a test run for me.

I have to go to the Dover Show I will be back.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I am good , T man. Too much stuff allready to do. When I moved I gave my super 0 to the guys relative. Boxes of it. Lol. Wasn't planning on using it.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

T-Man said:


> I love a challenge I am interested. SJM? Mike? He has 6 we could split?
> I have a bad right hand I want to repair and one of these could be a test run for me.
> 
> I have to go to the Dover Show I will be back.


Take all 6. My seasonal track plans are done and I won't be adding any more track - too much work to set it up and tear it down each year.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I don't have any desire to rebuild these things, I'm willing to ship them for cost to one person and they can divide them up if desired..I think T Man asked first so it's his call...it may be awhile though.. I'm replacing as I go


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Just bought these "Plasticville" houses to replace broken ones, it's amazing that the exact same ones are still available... assembly is a joke though, especially for the larger ones


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I don't have any desire to rebuild these things, I'm willing to ship them to one person and they can divide them up if desired


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Have stuff rolling in daily .. second delivery today!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My brother is interested in Super O so OK I will adopt them. I will post to you,
I f you are not embarrassed you can post a picture of them.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Lol ..not embarrassed, this thing is a basket case, I've already posted a picture of one of them... they're pretty much all the same and were working when this thing was mothballed so I assume the servos/internal parts are still good but track is roached


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The gate in the middle of the plasticville stuff is a lionel cossing gate. Activated by the pressure switch in close proximity to it. You could wire it in using insulated tracks and it would come down and up automatically. They work pretty well. Plus it lights up!


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Yes...there are two of them, I remember them working.. pretty cool, I'll most likely have to replace the other one too


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

1 down 5 to go


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Slight variation of terminal in new one


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Retro Engineer said:


> I'm trashing all the old track


I would pull the center rail before you trash it. At $2.55/lb, you won't get rich on the copper, but I just hate putting good metal in the trash.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> 1 down 5 to go


Throw weeds around that switch as a turnout on an abandoned rail line.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Don't think I have the energy for that ... rebuilding this thing will take all I have...lol


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

More surprises....what kind of track is this and what's the purpose of the wires tapped into it??


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

One more


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The first one has a stop and is a siding. I am to guess it was a separate block for power from those lines. Meaning it is isolated from the main line.
The circle thing is a magnetic coil for uncoupling.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

This seems to have been set up by a pro with far more expertise than myself...all I want is to get entire track and the 6 switches working for now...do I need to worry about all these uncouplers....thanks


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Uncoupling can be fun but not necessary. You can just use them as track pieces-for spacing. If they test right you can use them to uncouple. Your table may have a corresponding button.

The coil has two wires, one for each transformer wire I will get back to you with more information. The clip connects to a button and the transformer power to the outer rail.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks... I'm also not finding that siding track section anywhere online


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It's not a track, those are bars. They were so dirty I missed them. The bars supply power to sliding shoes to activate accessory cars. Unload. You should be able to remove the bars. and clean them.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Gotcha ... probably why I couldn't find that type track online...lol...also I'm assuming that the entire bank of buttons on the right side of control console are for uncouplers, now it's been 60 years or so but I don't remember those buttons doing anything except for the top one which activated the water tower spout... could all of those uncouplers just have been built into track in case of future needs?.... thanks


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

All the unloading bars need is a tray to unload. There are ten buttons, that control, uncouplers , unloaders and the water tower. The toggle switches control power to sidings and lights


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I see, think I'll hold off buying all those uncouplers for now, I can install them later as needed...thanks for all your help


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Does Lionel make short straight track sections....or do I need to cut them?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> Does Lionel make short straight track sections....or do I need to cut them?


They made the half straights, longer than half a normal straight at 5.75". Here's how I made custom shorts ...


Exactly half straights (4.5") are easiest. Turn the track over and just use a fine tooth hack saw and cut through the center of the middle supporting tie. Dress the cut rail ends with a file. You'll need to recreate the depression on the end of the center rail, Dremel or small stone wheel in a drill.


For custom length turn the track over and use an Xacto knife to gut the plastic at the side of a tie down to the rail. It's a bit of work. Four cuts to remove the number of ties of your desired length. The cut out ties will lift off the rails. Then use a small sharp screw driver to pry up one side of the "fingers" holding the rails in place - four pries in all. The rails will flex - okay. Then slide the end of the supporting end tie back to the remaining ties. Always some work, I used a small hammer. Crimpe the fingers back. I used a 7" carbide blade in my 10" miter saw to cut the rails back.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Super O had limited sizes. They do have short ones. Out of production for many years, you have to search.
There are old Lionel catalogs made just about every year. Starting in 1957 they would show the Super O stock.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

From Tandem Associates, the "Legend" of Super O track and fittings.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks, I'd prefer to buy them but am not finding them anywhere...can find curves but no straights.... also can anyone tell me what the hell this component is and it's purpose?...seems to block the rail


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

??


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> ??


That's a tubular lock-on that was made to alternately flash the lights on the 154 highway crossing signal.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

eBay Super O half straights offer *Here*.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I still don't see how the train get over it without derailing....thanks for that link!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> I still don't see how the train get over it without derailing....thanks for that link!


 The wings are insulated underneath (paint?) to avoid contact with the outside rail. The train wheels would make contact with the wings thus connecting them to the opposite outside rail - ground. That would complete the circuit to lights. First wing then the other to alternate the lights. See the vid.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Interesting.... they're nice signals but way out of scale...may replace them may not... thanks for that


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> Interesting.... they're nice signals but way out of scale...may replace them may not... thanks for that


I focus on tinplate and was into a permanent basement layout with three loops. If I had know I was moving two years ago, and, I would be resigned to a seasonal layout, I would have gone with standard gauge for the holidays. The highway signals and crossing gates would have been right size ... sigh.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Hindsight..lol


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I see some beautiful layouts especially those with the modern scale like track. I still like Super O the best  On some of those layouts the large, zinc-plated screw heads on the tie tops really detract from the look.

Hers, my solution. You can get them *Here* . You just have to wait a few weeks for the "Slow boat from China" for delivery. But you have time .

100 screws for under $3. I went with the M2 x 12mm - about a 1/2" long. You could go as big as the M2.3. The M3 screws are a bit too large and will thread the Super O tie holes.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I've actually been able to use some of the old (flathead) screws but these would be better... Thanks, I'll order some


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Bet these could be obtained on Amazon... maybe faster


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A lot of Super O tables used proven track plans. Maybe your plan is out there. With a few more pictures we may find it.

Black craft paint hinds anything especially screw tops. S0me screws can be blued.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'll take a few more tomorrow...I've obtained 5 decouplers so far... really not concerned about replacing all of them, don't believe any of the engines or cars are capable of utilizing that feature anyway.. just trying to match track length


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> I'll take a few more tomorrow...I've obtained 5 decouplers so far... really not concerned about replacing all of them, don't believe any of the engines or cars are capable of utilizing that feature anyway.. just trying to match track length


You better betting the power tracks to match lengths instead of the uncouplers. You never know when your going to need extra transformer drops around the loop.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'm definitely replacing all of the terminals, looks like a couple of tapped ones also, not sure how many there are....what would you think for a layout like this?


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Pics


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Can someone ID these controls?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Never saw those before. Looks like circuit protection. The reset button implies a circuit breaker. But the black tops look like fuse holders. Maybe both? Can you unscrew the black tops unscrew and lift them out?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yup, I blew up the pictures. Mike is right on. You do have some other stuff that may need to be powered, like the block signals and the water tower. The water tower if its powered will just drop the feed. The blick signals are a bit more complex.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And you have plenty enough in transformer power.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I believe those are Lionel controls but can't ID them online anywhere...I do remember the top red and black uncoupler button controlled the water tower


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

They do turn but never tried to lift them out... I'll check that out tomorrow


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I managed to unscrew one of the buttons but it doesn't come out?...Also don't know if this was ever hooked up or maybe wire just came loose over the years...looks like some kind of a ballast or something??


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Mystery solved.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Good job.....I looked but couldn't find it....that three year window would have been right about the time this was constructed


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The funny thing, it's a magnetic circuit breaker, the most desirable type of circuit protection. Fuses can be fast-acting but need to be replaced. Common thermal circuit breakers react very slowly. And modern magnetic breakers are expensive. Lionel had the best technology 65 years ago.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

And they still seem to be in good shape


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The # 91 Circuit Breaker instructions ...


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks, I'll need that.. hopefully they still work probably not many out there being they were only manufactured for three years


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Actually, they would be highly desirable. If they work well, they would trip long before the thermal breakers in the transformers. Easy enough to test ...


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'll have test to when ready


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just for fun went on e bay, only can find one in a quick search. Never saw that circuit breaker before. It was like 15 and 6 for shipping.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Just for fun went on e bay, only can find one in a quick search. Never saw that circuit breaker before. It was like 15 and 6 for shipping.


Started a conversation with you. Maybe you don't get notified ...


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I found one but when I went to the site it said "sold".... I'm pretty sure there are not too many out there


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I was wrong. Lionel had the optimum circuit breaker some 92 years ago.

It would appear to me that the Pre-War 91C circuit breaker was also magnetic based, albeit, not adjustable. The earliest version 1930-1933 had a single amp trip outpout. The later versions from 1934 - 1942 had two.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Dinosaur ..lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Retro Engineer said:


> Dinosaur ..lol


Alot of my stuff is from that era! Lol.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Me too


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

If I needed fast circuit breakers, I'd use it to add to the scenery. It looks like an old style electrical box.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Pretty cool!


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Can someone please tell me the purpose of this tap in?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is a center rail contact supplying power to the 153 controller.

Visit the All Gage Model Railroading page and consider saving the Basic O o27 manual.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Gotcha....thanks so much for that link!


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Well, got all of the switches, two couplers and about a third of the track replaced, slow goin ..alot of new pins I bought don't fit without filing...others too loose


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Getting their!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

At first I thought, "Why buy a layout if virtually all the track needs to be replaced?". Now I see the wisdom. The track is easy to replace. But the scenery is priceless.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

There's a gleam!..... Scenery and most accessories restored....one more order of track should do it


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Now just need a small lake


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

It's alive.....after 60 years 2 of the 3 circuits light up... at least I know the transformers are still operational


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Nice. Have you tested them? The light being on means the breaker has tripped and needs to be reset using the button.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks ... I'm not re-energizing again until the rest of the track is replaced....then the fun part begins, crawling under table to identify and reconnect wires.... something I'm (or my back) are looking forward to ...lol


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

No, haven't tested anything... they're still obviously putting out some power but that's all I know... I'm assuming I mis wired one or more of the accessories causing the breaker to trip, probably best to just disconnect all of them and start from scratch after I get the basics (track and switches) working


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Continuity check of track shows full continuity with no shorts


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

One of the old terminal tracks was plastered in making ID of wires difficult upon removal....I may have reversed them when I connected the new one, the only way to know for sure is to get under the table and trace them but I'm going to finish up track installation first


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

New floods, dwarfs and semaphores...painted new crossing signals to match original....added a pond


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Well, all track and aesthetics restored, now the "fun" part... getting it all to actually work


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Watch your center rail clips. I had 24 curves that were "new", never used. Odd because they came without any pins (pulled from the factory?). But a few center rails were slightly different in height causing the center clips to be canted on one side. I tapped some down center rails down into the ties. On one track, I had to heat the rail and push it further into the plastic ties.

Also, you'll notice the little wings at both ends of the clips. They hold the clips down via a cutout in the end ties. I've bent a few of the wings wider with needle nose pliers. I slipped one side of the clip into the a center rail's end tie. The I used a tiny screw driver to "massage" the other side into the end tie's cutout.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Yes...I noticed that some don't fit flush ...a couple actually impeded the engine when I tried to push it....there will be many many bugs to work out that's for sure


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Very cool. I am hoping for new space next year and am planning a small Super O layout for my traditional stuff.
I may have missed it but are all your curves stock 036 or have you tried making larger radiuses? Also do you plan to ballast the track?

Pete


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Hi Pete..I'm certainly no expert on this I'm not sure what you mean by "ballast", I simply replaced the old corroded track with same ...the track was built by my father and his buddy around 1960, I'd like to get it running for nostalgic purposes, I'm also in the middle of a kitchen renovation so it may be a while before I can complete, I called the local hobby shops to find someone to come out and rewire it for me but couldn't find anyone in my area


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Ballast is the stone that holds the ties in place. I have to tip my hat, building a layout and remodeling a kitchen. I might be able to do one or the other but not both at the same time.

Pete


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

It actually was ballasted but I had to throw most of it away with the dirt that built up on the table over the last 60 years...yes probably if I ever get this thing running I will tweak the layout, I still have a couple boxes of the original Lionel "Life Like" earth and grass material


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Engines light up but no movement??


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Moved in reverse for a second then stopped??


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Wheels seem very tight (one set frozen) tried alittle WD 40...let sit overnight


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The grease tends to harden over time - like a brick. After many years you likely need an complete engine overhaul.

(1) Cleaning the motor, gears and wheels sets. This can be done with a spray can of CRC (HD, et. al). Get all the old hardened grease and lube out. After the first dousing, hook the loco up t the transformer and douse again while the motors begin to move.

(2) A motor overhaul with naphtha, a.k.a. Ronsonol lighter fluid (yes the yellow bottle with the handy, dandy squirt top). Readily available at many stores for a few bucks. I can post a punch list of motor overhaul steps; brushes, armature face, yada yada. But why naphtha? Because isopropyl alcohol will melt the enamel on the armature and field windings causing shorts. And there's another reason but I won't go into here ...

(3) Re-lube with oil and grease. To get started, we can recommend short term easy lubes (like taking some drops from your auto dip stick).

Others will chime in with their favorite remedies but the three basic steps will be needed for the Loco's to run well for a few more decades. I have stuff nearing 100 years old that runs like a top.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Probably what it needs... now I did manage to get the wheels unfrozen but it still doesn't want to move and when I jiggle it on the track the lights will go out so I'm not sure if it's getting good contact either ....Am I right in assuming that if the engines are all lighting up the problem is with the engines and not the track?


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

You mentioned hooking engine up to transformer....do you mean with jumper wires?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

To bench test an engine, use a small transformer. Touch the roller with one wire and the frame with the other. WIth the shell off you can use other contacts on the motor and e unit too.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> You mentioned hooking engine up to transformer....do you mean with jumper wires?


Yes. One transformer connection to ground(trucks) and the other to the center roller. Be aware of the reverse unit. It will not cycle upside down. Don't get stuck in neutral.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'd have to purchase one...it may just be easier to take one of the engines to the local hobby shop and have it overalled.. thanks for the info, the problem is with all this being 60 years old I'm not sure which components are good and which aren't making it very hard to troubleshoot.. the transformer is obviously working but is it working correctly?...At least if I have the engine tested and it works I'll know that the problem lies elsewhere


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Can I use the large transformer I already have?


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Retro Engineer said:


> Can I use the large transformer I already have?


Well, yes, but with caution.

Big transformers can really put out a lot of current, and typically have circuit breakers that take so long to pop that you can easily fry a shorted piece of equipment (some of my trolleys still bear scars from my personal learning curve!). By contrast, smaller transformers have less capacity to inflict damage, and generally have quicker-acting circuit breakers, and so are the power source of choice when testing a questionable item.

If you do use a higher-power source, just be very careful to keep an eye out for signs of a frozen motor or some sort of short, and prepare to kill the power immediately at need.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Gotcha....thanks


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

The steam engine seems to rev up like it's in "neutral" when I throttle it up, it'll move sometimes but only for a few inches.... what's slipping?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

There were several iterations of the steam turbine Loco and two different motor configurations. It has a worm drive and that may need some adjustment or repair. Take the shell off and detailed, hi-res pics of the motor and gearing to determine which version. Also put it on the track to see if the motor is turning but not transfering power to the wheels.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks.... I'll post some pics when I get around to disassembling


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

That's exactly what the steam engine is doing....I've decided to punt these rebuilds to the local hobby shop, luckily there's a Lionel specialist not too far from me


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It could be as simple as two loose screws.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Could be, could be bad transformers also... I need to know that I have good reliable working engines to be able to troubleshoot the rest of the track...besides $35 plus parts per engine sounds pretty reasonable


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Would anyone have any idea of where these wires go or do I need to remove, retrace and start from scratch?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Let me ask you, do you like your control panel? Is it important to your restoration? I am asking because it uses a lot of prime real estate. Some of your pictures show the control panel taking up 1/3 of the picture. You want to be less visible with control and show more scenery and trains. What do you think? It is your table.

I have never seen that board before. It must be supplied from a transformer but is using DC terms. On the bottom there are five connectors? What is on the back side of the board? By all means trace it out.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

There is nothing on the back, I believe this is a Lionel part as I've seen it online, unfortunately it was a Pinterest pic with no further information provided, I just thought someone on here may be familiar with the set up, working under the table tracing wires will be a nightmare, probably easier to disconnect all and start from scratch..my one last hope is that the
track seems to have good power (I won't know for sure until I get my engines back) then all I would have to worry about is getting the six switches energized.....I would prefer to keep the set up "as is" but may have to change for simplicity purposes ....thanks for the feedback!


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Attached is a picture of a section of the bird's nest of wires under the table....lol


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Pic


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It is a mess, but you can recover from it. Start at the transformer and follow the leads. Now you can get creative. The wires need to be identified. You can use tape tabs or maybe cut colored straws split them to wrap the wire or even number them. The plastic bread ties work too. Start with transformer 1 or 2 then a post id A<B<C<D.

Start with your priority. Track power, switches, uncouplers lights. The circuit breakers fit in somehow.

Your picture shows the down fall of point to point wiring. Having a lamp post at the far end of a table and run a long wire back to a transformer means a lot of wires congregating at a point. To avoid that you bring the power to the accessories. . Run two wires to a terminal board located in a section of the table. Then just drop wires from an accessory and connect it to the terminal board


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks, may have to... two transformers and three circuit breakers really complicate this....still holding out hope of narrowing it down to the switches, if I can get them powered I should be golden ... I'll post once I start tracing the wires.. since none of them are lighting up it may just be a hot or ground wire that came disconnected or broken from a bus


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Does anyone have a link for wiring instructions on the Super O 1121 switch?....I can find nothing online that depicts this switch


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I've attached the Lionel service manul for the switch.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks ...the only ones I could find were for standard O


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

There ae only three connections. The lever switch has three wires and the switch has three. Outer rail-ground to transformer, and ground for each coil. Just switch those two if you do not like the position.
Then there are the isolated rails and using track vs separate power source.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Retro Engineer said:


> There is nothing on the back, I believe this is a Lionel part as I've seen it online, unfortunately it was a Pinterest pic with no further information provided, I just thought someone on here may be familiar with the set up, working under the table tracing wires will be a nightmare, probably easier to disconnect all and start from scratch..my one last hope is that the
> track seems to have good power (I won't know for sure until I get my engines back) then all I would have to worry about is getting the six switches energized.....I would prefer to keep the set up "as is" but may have to change for simplicity purposes ....thanks for the feedback!


Nothing on the back. Are any of them connected to each other?


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks .... that helps


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Sorry missed your question.....not sure.... but I'm wondering if the numbers correspond to the transformer output leads ...just a guess but I'll be looking into that possibility


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Working under table...too old for this crap


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Just discovered a new (and major) problem.... could explain lack of power to switches ..this will be a big setback


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Would conductive glue fix this?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

There is a part fix. A stud with a fixed washer is bolted from the inside. Is t the common bar? U


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

No (unfortunately)...it is the B connector


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

As T Man said , replace it. Once you take the shell off the transformer it will become aparent how to do it. You got this.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Can the shell be removed without dismounting transformer from table?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Which transformer? Judging from your pic, I'd guess it is a KW. *This Page* from Tranz4mr's will get you going with step-by-step disassembly, etc.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Yes it's the KW but if removing the shell entails dismounting the entire unit I may as well take it to be tested and overalled.... thanks to all of you for the advice


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Not my vid, but will show you the how.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Already done!.... because of all the valuable info gained on this site shell removal was a piece of cake....now just need the new stud....thanks again


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You can use a long bolt until you make an order. A few extra are nice to have around.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Had I not bumped that post with my finger I would never have known it was even broken


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Yes, that's what I figured but I just ordered a couple of them on eBay.. I can't do much else till I get my engines back anyway....thanks again


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Now is the time to look at the rollers. they do wear out.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

What should I look for?


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

The journey continues....KW stud replaced, more wire ID and tracing...top row of terminal block appears to be connected to the "D" outputs, bottom row #5 to "U"


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

I'm not an electrician but it doesn't seem like this terminal block was used as labeled


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Retro Engineer said:


> I'm not an electrician but it doesn't seem like this terminal block was used as labeled





Retro Engineer said:


> I'm not an electrician but it doesn't seem like this terminal block was used as labeled


Unfortunately, people wire the things they have the way they do. No ryme or reason. You'll figure it out.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Lol... funny thing is I probably wouldn't have any problem setting this thing up from scratch but trying to figure out someone else's set up is a nightmare...and I may still have to to do that as a last resort


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> Lol... funny thing is I probably wouldn't have any problem setting this thing up from scratch but trying to figure out someone else's set up is a nightmare...and I may still have to to do that as a last resort


Got that right. Me, I'd reclaim as much wire as I could in the longest lengths possible to reuse. Then wire from scratch.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Once I trace the rest of the wires to the numbered terminals I'm hoping I can figure out how to restore power to the switches (the track itself seems to be operational) so I should be good, if not then I'll probably have to disconnect and start from scratch...at least I'll have precut and stripped wire to work with


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

As I said wire what you need. Track, switches, uncouplers. Do a little at a time 
Try to find an electrical surplus or a rehab place and find some marked down wire.
Telephone and thermostat wire work, too.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I like speaker wire myself.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Yep, a little at a time... pretty much how I have to do everything now days..lol


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

New plan, switches just won't energize and one is occasionally arcing, I'm thinking about completely bypassing the existing switch wiring with new, I also realize by doing this I would be bypassing the circuit breakers.....is this a problem?...Secondly are the 3 connections from control to switch plus the fixed Voltage the only 4...mine currently has 6 (possibly for sync with other switches and is this really necessary?) Finally does it matter which transformer I run fixed Voltage to as I have two....thanks


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Also why do these instructions show a #43 track section... is it part of the switch set up??


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The diagram shows you how to power the track and the switch separately by using the correct terminals for a particular transformer. They should be connected to the same transformer. What is the second transformer for? II is phased with the first one.

For switches disconnect the extra wires for now. 

I have no idea how those breakers are wired in.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The #43 shows power to the track. That's important as the switch derives ground from the track's outside rails. Common ground on the outside rail is the basis for most switch and operating accessories connections.

What you want is:

(1) A common transformer ground (KW "U" post) for the outside rails;
(2) A throttle (KW "A" or "B" post) for the center rail; and
(3) A constant accessory voltage for the switches (instead of track power).

With that in mind, rewiring should be a "piece of cake".

In the diagram, the KW "U: post is common ground to the outside rail. The "A" post is throttle to the center rail. And the KW "B" post is the second throttle and is used to supply a constant voltage to the switches instead of track power. So you would set that at like 14 V or so for optimum switch operation. If you wanted to control two loops/trains with the A & B throttles, each loop would get "U" to the outside rails, and "A" and "B" posts would be connected to each loop's center rail respectively. Then you could use the KW D post for the switches. That would supply a constant 20 V to the switch. A bit much but once the switch is thrown the switch internally disconnects power to it's solenoid for that diverging route to avoid switch burnout.

In the case of the ZW, U is outer rail. A (or D) is center rail (throttle). B or C are the inside variable throttles on the ZW. In the case of the switches, they're set (by the user) to a constant voltage (ex., 14 V) for optimum switch operation. The ZW does not have any constant voltage accessory terminals. So it's third and fourth variable controls (B & C) are typically used for accessories.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks ...dual transformers and three circuits really complicate this set up, I would at least assume the transformers were phased when installed, I'll disconnect all switches and do one switch at a time....and try not to burn the house down


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Retro Engineer said:


> I would at least assume the transformers were phased when installed,


It's easy to check if they are phased. Connect the ground/common terminals. Set them for the same voltage (around 10 should do it). Connect wires to the hot terminals. Touch the wires. A spark means they are not phased. No spark means they are phased. Mark the plugs so that next time you plug them in, you know they are phased.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Thanks... I'll do that


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> Thanks ...dual transformers and three circuits really complicate this set up, I would at least assume the transformers were phased when installed, I'll disconnect all switches and do one switch at a time....and try not to burn the house down


IIRC, you had a KW. What is the second transformer. The "U" and "A" posts vary by transformer model. For example, the ubiquitous Lionel 1033 transformer uses "A" as common ground and "U" as variable throttle. Just the opposite of a KW and a ZW.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

A ZW and KW... connected through "U" terminal


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Retro Engineer said:


> A ZW and KW... connected through "U" terminal


That's easy. On the KW and the ZW, all the U posts are connected together internally. Run a wire from one KW U post to one ZW U post and you have a nice transformer block. Make sure they are in phase as Bob mentioned (Lehigh74). A small power strip with on-off switch is ideal for the two transformers. Once in phase, you never have to worry again. Just use the strip's on-off switch. Also, you can use a ZW B or C post to power the switches. That you can set for a nominal 14+ V per the switch needs.

The circuit breakers should still be used. Three is ideal. One in line with one throttle, another inline with a second throttle and the third inline with the feed to the switches.


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## Retro Engineer (3 mo ago)

Ok.... that's what I'll try...thanks


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