# Lionel 4-8-4 Rock Island Northern Original Price?



## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hi All,

I picked up a Lionel 6-18001 Rock Island 4-8-4 Northern Locomotive a few years ago at a train meet. This, and its sibling, the 6-18003 Delaware and Lackawanna Northern, were from the Richard Kughn era back about 1988 or so. 

While doing some work on it this past weekend, I got to wondering, what was the original suggested retail price of these things when they were brand new? I've done some searching on the web, but haven't come up with an answer yet. I was hoping that someone might have an old Lionel catalog handy from back then that might have the original prices listed.

Like I said, just curious. Thanks in advance. 
Paul.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I do not know either, but they are super plentiful - as I am sure you have found out - on ebay. They run the gamut from $150 to $399 or so. I model the Rock Island, but am 56 years old, born in 1964, I grew up with the Rock only in the Diesel era, so that is all that I model. I have been tempted to get 1-2 of these for $150 each or so, but I have heard they are dogs prone to issues. Obviously the detail reflects the era and I am generally a detail oriented buyer, so I pass. 

Would be nice to get an answer to your inquiry. How does yours run?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

From this *Link*.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hey Bryan & Mike,

Thanks for your input. I picked up my loco, plus a matching Lionel R.I. Standard "O" Caboose at a train show for a grand total of $125. Pretty good deal at the time, I thought. And I still think so.

I had done a little research on them before I bought it, and found out that the first factory batch had over-sized motor bearings accidentally installed at the factory, allowing considerable slop in the armature and therefore pretty noisy when running. Which if not corrected in short order, would cause damage to the rear axle drive gear by the worm gear. Making it an even more expensive fix if the motor bearings were not dealt with right away. 

At the show I asked the owner if the motor ever had bearings replaced, but he didn't know. He did say it ran good. The first chance I had after bringing it home, I ran it. I guess if it runs, then it's good, right? The loco seemed to run a pretty rough and was fairly noisy, and the smoke unit didn't work too good. Probably hadn't been run for quite awhile, if the truth was known. So, off to the work bench it went. After removing the shell, I did a thorough cleaning and re-lubricating. I removed the motor and inspected it. Really good condition, nice and clean, brushes seemed okay, and no lateral slop on the armature. The drive gear on the rear drive axle looked good, too. So either the Pullmor had new bearings replaced early on, or else it was from a later batch that had properly sized bearings installed to begin with.

The smoke piston was hardly moving (if at all) on the smoke unit, further investigation finally revealed the culprit - the plastic cam lobe on the front drive axle had broken and the 2 pieces were laying down in the cavity. I fished them out, and for lack of any other quick fix-it ideas at that time, I got out the soldering iron and disconnected the smoke unit to render it inoperative. Didn't want things burning up.

After putting it back together and test running, it ran decidedly better and smoother. Still somewhat noisy and slightly "coffee grinder" like, I figured this was just part of its post-war heritage (which I had to assume, since I never had any Lionel trains until getting into O-gauge the past 8 years or so). The "Mighty Sound of Steam" and the horn both work, and I might add, I'd rather listen to fingernails screeching on a chalkboard as opposed to that God-awful racket produced by that electronics board! Yeoucchhhh!  Thank goodness it has an on/off switch!

This past weekend, I did some more work to it, but it's getting late, and I need to retire for the evening. I'll tell more in my next post.

Thanks!
Paul.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Not sure if you went to the link I posted above. It has a discussion on the bearings and also several other potential issues and remedies for rough running..


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Sold for $650-$700 back in the day.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I have 1 of those pigs also. I bought it from a very reputable dealer for $275, brand new in the box, and never ran.. The dealer told me it was new, and to oil and grease it before running..At the time, it was the most expensive engine I owned..I got it home, put it on the lay-out, and it wouldn't hardly move more that a few inches, stop, move again, and make all sorts of noises. I took it to my local shop, and they said that particular engine was Lionel's biggest POS ever made..The local shop suggested I call Lionel for some help, but the local shop did fix it for an additional $125 dollars. I called Lionel and they said that engine needed all sorts of work for it to run, that they knew about the problem, and told me to have a nice day. That started my dis-like for Lionel. Did I mentioned the smoke unit was not working?? That was also fixed during the major repair, turns out there was a broken plastic part that apparently was messed up when originally assembled...Oh yes, the tender wheels also fall out of the trucks if you're not careful. It sits in the original box at the bottom of my closet..


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

So sad to hear this last story, and they are still charging a small fortune


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Mike, I did read all of your link comments thank you. I am a bit torn on these. Being a RI guy, there are few Steam options. Milwsukee Road, CB & Q, and UP I have many choices but with RI not so much. With my diesel locomotives starting to become more complete, or at least what I want, it seems to make sense to start looking at Steam, especially with the gee whiz features of modern variants. 

In your link there were comments that the locomotive (Rock Island Northern) was a good looking unit. I had never heard that before. On ebay they look "ok" but I am comparing them to modern catalog items. 

Also, I note in all if the ebay auctions the sellers never mention that "its a good runner". Probably because they are not. I think I will grab a couple and play with them and try to improve them. I have a junk box like most of us with a couple of locomotives in there that were sold to me as non running. I want to do some custom painting and I need practice removi g shells on the diesels, etc. As for these steamers, I run conventional so I don't expect much but the visual look of a steam Steam locomotive. I am heming and hawing over a couple of used UP Challengers from MTH and so on. It gets expensive. I don't see Lionel putting a Rick Island steam locomotive out anytime soon, as noted these are 25 years old. Lionel keeps trotting out Big Boys. Rock Island collectors are more into Diesels anyway in my opinion. 
If I buy a couple of these I will update the thread. I am between layouts so not sure when I would get to them but based on the totality if comments I am assuming what I buy will be in need of repair or poorly running.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had several of it's sister locomotives, the 6-18006 Reading T1. I ended up selling them after they were upgraded to TMCC, now I have a pair of the Legacy Reading T1 locomotives.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Millstonemike said:


> Not sure if you went to the link I posted above. It has a discussion on the bearings and also several other potential issues and remedies for rough running..


Thanks for pointing that out, I had indeed missed your posted link.

I actually had found that CTT post recently when researching the price. Since it was the ONLY indication of what sounded like an approximate original price I found, that's what got me to wondering if anybody knew exactly what these things went for when new.

A thousand bucks is quite a bit of moolah these days, let alone back then. 

Plus the other issues it discusses is also some good information. Appreciate the link, it was good to spend some time reading it in a little more depth.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hey Bryan, et al:

As promised, here is more story................

This past Saturday, I tore my loco apart, brain-stormed, fabricated and installed a new cam on the front drive axle, reassembled everything and got it up and running with a working smoke unit, all in about the space of ten hours!

A brief synopsis, the loco disassembles quite fast and easily with a very small amount of common hand tools. With just a #1 and #2 Phillips screwdriver, a 1/4" and 5/16" nut driver, and a soldering iron, you can tear it down to the bare chassis and driver wheels in a short amount of time.

In order to get the front (or rear) flanged driver out, you first must remove the adjoining flange-less driver. While I have a couple of nice pullers available, they would have taken a LOT of grinding, hacking, and sawing on the jaws to be able to get behind a wheel and pull it off. So rather than that, with a punch, a hammer, and a couple of small blocks of wood for support on a sturdy work table, I merely punched the front and second drive axles out in no time. FYI, you are merely driving the axle out of one wheel. The wheel on the opposite side stays attached to the axle.

Then came the head-scratching to come up with a cam lobe. I had originally thought about getting some small brass square or hex nuts, and file, grind, and whittle something out of them. But that was going to take quite a bit of time with nothing more than simple hand tools and basic power tools. After a little more thought, I came up with a cam made of brass tubing, brass wire, and nylon tubing. The cam ended up being quite easy to make and install. So far has been working great, and I fully expect it to stay that way for a long time. Also, it is a double-lobe cam, as opposed to the original single-lobe plastic factory cam. This means I get two smoke puffs per axle revolution instead of one puff with the factory cam.

Reassembly of the axles and wheels went faster and easier than even I had expected. I stood the chassis nose up and lightly clamped it in a bench vise to hold it. I installed the front axle and quartered the loose wheel to match the back two drivers, then finished pressing the wheel on using a small C-clamp. Installed the second axle the same way. Checked ALL axles for proper wheel gauge and wheel true. The third axle (which didn't get removed) was just a tad wide on gauge, so the C-clamp took care of it real fast. Spinning the drivers, one of the wheels that I pressed back on had a very slight wobble (didn't get pressed on totally square with the axle). Not a problem, a little more work the C-clamp and some mild taps with the hammer got it trued up and spinning straight.


Then, it was just a matter of reassembling the mechanism in the reverse order. Of course, I had taken some time to clean things during disassembly, and then also properly lubricating the moving parts during reassembly. The last thing was to set in on the track, pour in some smoke fluid, and turn up the throttle. The engine took off, and within a few minutes enough smoke was puffing out of the stack and the steam chest that it looked like the whole engine was on fire from all the smoke pouring out of it! That was a comical sight, to say the least! I've since put some restrictors in the smoke chest tubes to try and cut down the amount of smoke. It helped some, but I think I need to restrict them a little more yet, if not shut them off entirely. I think I would prefer most, if not all, of the smoke going through the stack.

After doing this bit of work, and finding out how easy it actually was, I think that installing a new drive gear on the back axle or putting new bearings (bushings) in the motor housing probably would be fairly easy jobs also.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Most excellent write-up ...

Pictures my friend. Where would Playboy Magazine be without pictures


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Millstonemike said:


> Most excellent write-up ...
> 
> Pictures my friend. Where would Playboy Magazine be without pictures


Yeah, I've got pictures. I just have to get myself edumicated on how to post them. 
I'm pretty busy on other stuff for the next day or two, but with a bit of luck, maybe I can get something posted by this weekend.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Bryan Moran said:


> Mike, I did read all of your link comments thank you. I am a bit torn on these. Being a RI guy, there are few Steam options. Milwsukee Road, CB & Q, and UP I have many choices but with RI not so much. With my diesel locomotives starting to become more complete, or at least what I want, it seems to make sense to start looking at Steam, especially with the gee whiz features of modern variants.
> 
> In your link there were comments that the locomotive (Rock Island Northern) was a good looking unit. I had never heard that before. On ebay they look "ok" but I am comparing them to modern catalog items.
> 
> ...


Hey Bryan,

Like you, I am a Rock Island enthusiast too. You're correct, there are few steam options for R.I. Seems like once every decade or two, someone might throw O-gaugers/O-scalers a bone. If we're lucky, that is.

There's a reason that this particular Lionel loco is a "good looking" unit. That's because it truly is a model of the fifty one hundred series of Rock Island's 4-8-4 Northern engines. If you compare a prototype picture to the model, there's no doubt about it they're a match. That being said, I highly suspect that Lionel didn't originally tool up this model because of the Rock Island. I'd be more inclined to believe they did it because of the Delaware, Lackawanna, & Western RR (an Eastern road, surprise surprise!), and the Rock Island just so happened to purchase the same type of loco from ALCO back in the day.

This a "Traditional"-sized locomotive, so it's not a true 1/48 scale. It has been compressed in maybe some width, for sure a little height, and definitely some length. So it also needs traditional-sized freight or passenger cars behind it to really look good as a train. If it were a true 1/48 scale, it would be close to 4" height above the rail head (instead of the current 3-1/2" ht.) and a little over 27" long ( instead of about 22" long).

The latest Lionel catalog or two has a re-branded Santa Fe Northern (Legacy or Vision) offered in "Rock Island" and some other rubber-stamped Midwest road names. I thought about getting one, but around $1500 or so retail, ouch! I ultimately decided against it, as I didn't want to pay that kind of money for a Santa Fe prototype masquerading as a fifty one hundred series R.I. loco. I dunno however, maybe it would be a good stand-in for the fifty hundred series of R.I. Northerns. I need to study that possibility. On the other hand, some folks have just taken deliveries of the first ones, and already the smoke units are melting on them. Poor Lionel, seems like just another can of worms with every new release here lately.

Thanks!


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## MitchR (Sep 27, 2020)

Millstonemike said:


> From this *Link*.
> 
> View attachment 553684





Mixed Freight said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I picked up a Lionel 6-18001 Rock Island 4-8-4 Northern Locomotive a few years ago at a train meet. This, and its sibling, the 6-18003 Delaware and Lackawanna Northern, were from the Richard Kughn era back about 1988 or so.
> 
> ...


 Bought the Rock Island new at about $400 when it came out. Still new, no longer $400, as stated, maybe $250 ✌


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

MitchR said:


> Bought the Rock Island new at about $400 when it came out. Still new, no longer $400, as stated, maybe $250 ✌


Thanks Mitch. Somehow,without me even being into trains back in the late 80's, that would sound kinda' reasonable for that era. Do you remember, was that a discounted price, or full retail from a local hobby shop?


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## limitwheel (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm about to purchase the front and rear motor bronze bearing to correct for the excess armature play.
Are there any tricks to removing the old bearings?


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## MitchR (Sep 27, 2020)

Mixed Freight said:


> Thanks Mitch. Somehow,without me even being into trains back in the late 80's, that would sound kinda' reasonable for that era. Do you remember, was that a discounted price, or full retail from a local hobby shop?


Probably from a discounter like Charles Ro (RIP)
There was a time back in the 80’s when you had to preorder items as soon as they were announced by Lionel. They would be presold before being manufactured 🤣🤣🤣


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Mixed Freight said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I picked up a Lionel 6-18001 Rock Island 4-8-4 Northern Locomotive a few years ago at a train meet. This, and its sibling, the 6-18003 Delaware and Lackawanna Northern, were from the Richard Kughn era back about 1988 or so.
> 
> ...


Last night I was going threw a old, 2015 Classic Toy Trains magazine, and found the 6-18001 loco for sale at $250 dollars, NOS.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Mixed Freight said:


> ....what was the original suggested retail price of these things when they were brand new?.....


OP asked for SRP of these new, not years later or secondary market value. Though that information is interesting


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

86TA355SR said:


> OP asked for SRP of these new, not years later or secondary market value. Though that information is interesting


This was a ad from Gryskoskis,(SP) Toy Trains, not a secondary market source.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

It started a fair discussion of the engine itself and no one seemed to mind.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> It started a fair discussion of the engine itself and no one seemed to mind.


The original cost was probably close to $695, though the price I quoted was 6 years old and NOS.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

A 1998 issue of Classic Toy Trains had 2 different prices from 2 different dealers; $495 and $425, both new...[


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Lionel Product Catalogs online only go back to 2011
They do have a parts diagram.


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## platteriverkid (Dec 26, 2021)

86TA355SR said:


> Sold for $650-$700 back in the day.


I acquired the Lionel 6-18001 in July 2013 for $152.00, with the Caboose in a pristine box. ( first thing was to add a capacity to that darn caboose interior light that "blinks")
Yes the soundboard is "terrible". So, I ordered parts from a Lionel 6-11286 ( Mikado ) and created an improved C.R.I.&P engine that is not Perfect for the Legacy system, but, I'm getting old waiting for Lionel to produce a 4-8-4 "5100 Class engine in a true "O" scale. As to the smoothness of operation, no complaints so far.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

platteriverkid said:


> I acquired the Lionel 6-18001 in July 2013 for $152.00, with the Caboose in a pristine box. ( first thing was to add a capacity to that darn caboose interior light that "blinks")
> Yes the soundboard is "terrible". So, I ordered parts from a Lionel 6-11286 ( Mikado ) and created an improved C.R.I.&P engine that is not Perfect for the Legacy system, but, I'm getting old waiting for Lionel to produce a 4-8-4 "5100 Class engine in a true "O" scale. As to the smoothness of operation, no complaints so far.


You're lucky, the Rock Island 4-8-4 loco is one of the worst engines ever produced by Lionel, and that came from their own mouth.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

And Lionel has put out a new steam locomotive. I was told it was true 1:48 where the old one is not. It was also priced at around $1599.00. There was one at the local hobby store.


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## platteriverkid (Dec 26, 2021)

Bryan Moran said:


> And Lionel has put out a new steam locomotive. I was told it was true 1:48 where the old one is not. It was also priced at around $1599.00. There was one at the local hobby store.


Glad to hear of the "new" locomotive being offered by Lionel. A Rock Island scheme perhaps?


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

platteriverkid said:


> Glad to hear of the "new" locomotive being offered by Lionel. A Rock Island scheme perhaps?


You might say that. Actually, it's a 1/48 scale *Santa Fe* prototype with Rock Island numbering and lettering on it, along with a small handful of other railroad schemes.

Lionel Trains Catalog

I almost pulled the trigger myself when I first saw it in the catalog. However, after regaining consciousness from my initial feinting spell, I decided I wasn't going to spend that kind of money for a re-branded Santa Fe unit. Had it been a true R.I. prototype (or at least closer looking), I would definitely have ordered one.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Regarding Rock Island prototypes, has MTH ever made anything close? They have made a number of 4-8-4s in Premier and Railking. If so relettering and converting to TMCC is an option. If you can find a PS1 or 2 for a reasonable price, say 500 bucks, TMCC will add another 300 or so. You could have one for half the price of a new one. and if you want to send it out for this a few here reletter and install electronic upgrades.

Pete


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Norton said:


> Regarding Rock Island prototypes, has MTH ever made anything close? They have made a number of 4-8-4s in Premier and Railking. If so relettering and converting to TMCC is an option. If you can find a PS1 or 2 for a reasonable price, say 500 bucks, TMCC will add another 300 or so. You could have one for half the price of a new one. and if you want to send it out for this a few here reletter and install electronic upgrades.
> 
> Pete


My thoughts exactly.


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