# 470 Santa Fe Alco question



## flyer frank (Feb 16, 2019)

Hey group....new to the forum....happy to find this resource.
I just purchased my first Flyer alco off eBay...what I thought was a 470. When I unpacked it, It seemed to me that it had incorrect trucks. There are no couplers, or anyplace to mount them. The rear truck had a bracket for a draw bar. I poked around on eBay, and it seemed like the trucks were like what you would find on a 360 alco....no front coupler, and a draw bar to the B unit. So now I’m wondering just what I have here. Did someone swap out the trucks, or is this a 470 shell on a 360 chassis ? It is a two motor diesel chassis. Did 360s ever have two motors?

Thanks much for any insight into my dilemma.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Welcome to the MTF! It sounds like you have a 360 chassis, they did have 2 motors. It would have no front coupler and a rear drawbar to connect to the 364 B unit. The 360's are good runners but no traction tires (PullMor.)


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Welcome to the forum flyer frank. You should be able to pick up truck frames with couplers on ebay, they come up for sale at times.


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## flyer frank (Feb 16, 2019)

Thanks much....that helps.

So, if I had a 360, 2 motor chassis sitting right beside a 470, 2 motor chassis, the only way to tell the difference would be the pull more wheels on the 470 ? No other differences?

Thanks again!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

They are functionally the same but almost all the parts are different. The 470 will have PullMor motors, updated truck chassis assemblies and an updated remote control unit. Updated does not necessarily mean better. If you are interested in all the details visit the myflyertrains.org site and select Gilbert paper, then Factory Service Manual, then Locomotives. It has the blow up assembly diagrams and all the part numbers.


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## dooper (Nov 9, 2015)

Welcome aboard Flyer Frank. You will find many knowledgeable people here. In fact, you found one of the most knowledgeable in AmFlyer.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I don't know about that. I contribute when I can but feel I learn more than I give. We have many knowledgeable and generous people here.


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## flyer frank (Feb 16, 2019)

Thanks for the help guys. I put it on the test track today, then pulled the shell off to see what I could see. It actually ran pretty good....real peppy and the e- unit worked well. The play in the axles seems very excessive. One of the axles would occasionally get seized right up and drag it down....I’d have to free it up, then it would run fine until it seized up again. I understand some models...(maybe later ones ?) had replaceable axle bushings, and some didn’t. Can’t tell which I have yet....have to figure out how to get the wheels off and the axles and gears off. I can see what you mean by “it’ll have me pulling my hair out” , but it’s in for a penny, in for a pound. 

Frank Out


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

There are folks out there that do this type of work, PortLines come to mind.. They can re-bush with new bushings. Contact Doug Peck at PortLines Hobby Supply.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Flyernut is correct, Doug at Portlines does this repair. In his clinics, #34 describes the repair process of re-bushing diesel power trucks. Per the clinic, only the early 360 trucks had bushing inserts. Later trucks have to be machined and bushings inserted. Might be best to call and get an idea on pricing before you attempt any disassembly.


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## flyguy55 (Apr 20, 2015)

Just my two cents but if you bought this off ebay and it was said to be a 470 which is a more expensive engine than a 360 you should have returnrd it to the sender.Even if the seller did not sell it intentionally knowing that the chassis was swapped you would be farther ahead returning it.You don't want to get into the expense of rebushing the trucks and the like.Even if you correct the problem you still gonna have a 470 shell on a 360 chassis not as desirable as a running 470....


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

One other way to tell if its a 360 chassis is that the rear of the 360 sheet metal frame is straight across at the rear. All 53 and newer sheet metal frames have a half circle cut at the rear for the modified PA shells( when the front pilot was redesigned for the front knuckle coupler.) The only way a 360 sheet metal frame will mount in a 470 or similar 53 and later PA body is if the sheet metal frame was cut out . There is a post at the rear center of the 470 and similar shells that the 360 sheet metal frame won't pass without cutting out a semi circle to pass. I tried this years ago on a 477 Silver Flash from 53 with a 360 frame, it will not fit without modifying the sheet metal frame on the 360. See if the frame you have has been hand modified.


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## flyer frank (Feb 16, 2019)

flyguy55 said:


> Just my two cents but if you bought this off ebay and it was said to be a 470 which is a more expensive engine than a 360 you should have returnrd it to the sender.Even if the seller did not sell it intentionally knowing that the chassis was swapped you would be farther ahead returning it.You don't want to get into the expense of rebushing the trucks and the like.Even if you correct the problem you still gonna have a 470 shell on a 360 chassis not as desirable as a running 470....


Thanks fly guy....I thought about that. On one hand, I am disappointed in my purchase, but, and you might think I’m nuts, when things go wrong I learn the most. I’ve already learned enough , thanks in part to you folks on this forum, to not let this happen again. I really like my pieces to be correct, so I will probably find a nice 360 shell and then I could at least sell it in the future with a clear conscience. I will attempt to re-bush the truck bodies myself.


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## flyer frank (Feb 16, 2019)

cramden said:


> One other way to tell if its a 360 chassis is that the rear of the 360 sheet metal frame is straight across at the rear. All 53 and newer sheet metal frames have a half circle cut at the rear for the modified PA shells( when the front pilot was redesigned for the front knuckle coupler.) The only way a 360 sheet metal frame will mount in a 470 or similar 53 and later PA body is if the sheet metal frame was cut out . There is a post at the rear center of the 470 and similar shells that the 360 sheet metal frame won't pass without cutting out a semi circle to pass. I tried this years ago on a 477 Silver Flash from 53 with a 360 frame, it will not fit without modifying the sheet metal frame on the 360. See if the frame you have has been hand modified.


Thanks for that great info cramden. What they did instead was to grind down the plastic post that you mentioned, so that it was below the mounting standoffs . I guess that pretty much confirms what I have here. One good thing about this ...in my feeble mind anyways....is that the bushings in the 360 truck bodies are of the replaceable variety. This supports what AmFlyer said about updated/newer not necessarily meaning better.

Frank out


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## flyer frank (Feb 16, 2019)

cramden said:


> Flyernut is correct, Doug at Portlines does this repair. In his clinics, #34 describes the repair process of re-bushing diesel power trucks. Per the clinic, only the early 360 trucks had bushing inserts. Later trucks have to be machined and bushings inserted. Might be best to call and get an idea on pricing before you attempt any disassembly.


Thanks much cramden!! found my way to that #34 clinic this weekend.....excellent resource. The tinkering is what I dig the most, so I will attempt the repair. The parts are reasonable.....the shipping stings a little.


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## JMedwick (Feb 11, 2017)

Thought I would follow onto this thread rather than starting a new one. I just got a 470. The engine parts are all cleaned and reassembled. Even figure out how to realign the armature.
But it still does not run well. Both the front and rear wheels do not turn well from side to side. Mostly concerningly the back of the rear truck doesn’t seems to touch the track consistently. It is very odd and occurs even when the frame is completely screwed in. 

Has anyone run into this? I can’t think of any thing except that part of the motor yoke is bent, probably the pin.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I am no expert on these 470 style engines. I do know there are early and late style 470's that use different style washers on the yolk mounting posts and they do not interchange. It sounds like something is not assembled in the correct sequence on the post that insulates and holds the yolk assembly to the chassis, or it is attached too tightly. Those truck assemblies should rock back and forth with a lot of movement and the truck assembly should rotate freely until the tongue on the mounting pad hits the limit stops.


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## JMedwick (Feb 11, 2017)

I ended up taking apart the truck to frame connection. A little bending of the frame seems to fix the issue when the train does not have its body. Once I screw the train into the body, the rear screw seems to pull the body up enough away from the track that the back wheels on the rear truck don’t touch. Now to decide if it works well enough without the rear screwed in or to try and shim up the rear screw hole a bit


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