# Need a lionel PA wiring diagram



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

My lionel Southern Pacific PA has been laying around here disassembled for months. I need to get it running and back together before I loose some parts. A brown wire has come 
loose and I can not tell where it goes. The other truck the brown wire goes to a brush wire. I don't know which brush wire gets the brown wire. I don't want to zap the board so I need to get it right the first time. I have looked online and can not find the proper wiring diagram. Does anyone know where I might find one. It is from the early 80s and is an AC motor, not the can motors. The wire came loose so I removed the truck from the frame. One of the brush springs went flying and I never found it.
I did buy 4 new springs off of ebay. The brushes and springs are really goofy, but I can get them back together. I really hate these lionel diesels. And I have 4 A-B-A sets of them. They are
true pieces of poop. They do not run good even when assembled. LOL. Lionel should be ashamed of themselves. And
I love lionel diesels in O scale. Save yourself a bunch of trouble and don't buy any of these. They are very good looking but that
is it.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> My lionel Southern Pacific PA has been laying around here disassembled for months. I need to get it running and back together before I loose some parts. A brown wire has come
> loose and I can not tell where it goes. The other truck the brown wire goes to a brush wire. I don't know which brush wire gets the brown wire. I don't want to zap the board so I need to get it right the first time. I have looked online and can not find the proper wiring diagram. Does anyone know where I might find one. It is from the early 80s and is an AC motor, not the can motors. The wire came loose so I removed the truck from the frame. One of the brush springs went flying and I never found it.
> I did buy 4 new springs off of ebay. The brushes and springs are really goofy, but I can get them back together. I really hate these lionel diesels. And I have 4 A-B-A sets of them. They are
> true pieces of poop. They do not run good even when assembled. LOL. Lionel should be ashamed of themselves. And
> ...


Sorry I can't help you buddy.I don't have a diagram, maybe your best bet would be to send it to Lionel or another train shop, and see what they can do for you.. Just don't send it to me,lol!! You're right in describing the early 80's PA's though. Some run but most don't. My 90's re-issues seem to have a good reputation, MP and NP.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I'm not aware of diagrams for the Flyonel PA's online, a search came up empty so far. Are any other PA's that you own have a similar set up that you could look at? If not, maybe someone on here has one and would be able to post a picture of the chassis or tell you where the wire attaches. Sorry I can't be more helpful.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

I have a fair amount of info on the Daylight PA. I'll round it up and post it later today. Or, I can PM to mopac. It might be worthwhile to have it in the "wild". Took me a fair amount of effort to figure it out. These are dual winding motors with a forward and reverse winding rather than the AF single winding with more complex wiring and with 2 motors turning opposite directions. Thus, the solid state reverse unit is different, and I think was particularly troublesome. I replaced mine with an old solid state unit I had on hand from the 80's.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

cramden, this one is different than my other 3. The other 3 are can motors. This is
an open frame AC motor. It did run when I first got it. Then the rear truck stopped
working. Brown wire I suspect.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Since the brown wire is connected to a brush wire on front truck, I guess I could connect it to a brush wire on the rear truck. I am thinking if I put it to wrong brush wire the worse that can happen is motor would run in wrong direction then I would know it goes to other brush wire.

I have some running around to do. When I get back I think I will just solder it to a brush wire and see what happens.
The brush wires run from the brushes and goes to the coil. Brown wire goes to the coil. MikeH49 says there are 2 coils.
I only see one on mine. When it was running it ran "ok". It ran fine at medium speed, it just wouldn't start smooth or
run smooth at slow speed. Part of that could be new and maybe after some run time it will break in and run smoother.

After rereading Mikes post he did not say there was 2 coils, just 2 windings, maybe on the armature. Not sure.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

Here is a wiring diagram for the dual field motor PA. I think it is correct based on my work on the loco a year ago. If there is a difference to your unit, let me know and I can try to sort it out. One confusing thing is the tie point on each motor that looks like it is a field connection, but is just a tie point, no field connection.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

The brown wire connects to the tie points on each motor. From the tie point, a wire (black, I think) goes to:

-the *left* brush on the front motor
-the *right* brush on the rear motor

Left and Right are referenced facing forward from the rear of the loco. Left is fireman's side, right is engineer's. 

This might not agree with the diagram I posted, but I'm pretty sure this is correct. There should be only one wire on each brush, and the tie point should not go to both brushes.

There are 2 windings on each field (the stationary part of the motor) and I believe they have red and green coatings on the wire. The green field wire on the front motor and red field wire on the rear motor connect to the pink/red wire on the e-unit. The red field wire on the front motor and the green field wire on the rear motor connect to the yellow wire on the e-unit. The field common wire connects to the right brush on the front motor and the left brush on the rear motor. The brown wire goes to the other brush on each motor. (Left and right defined as above.) 

This makes the motors turn in the opposite direction as needed since the two trucks do not face the same "direction".

Here is a schematic:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

It makes sense Mike. Thanks so much. This will help. The black wires are to the brushes.
And I guess one black wire and one brown wire goes to a tie point. It makes sense that brown wire goes to left on one truck and to the right on other truck. I just could not figure it out, but I did suspect. There are 4 or 5 wires running to each truck. When the rear truck stopped working I could pick up the wires , or move them, and truck would try to run. So I knew it was a bad solder on one of them. I removed the rear truck and that
is when brown wire came loose. I think my brown wire was broken at solder point. Moving
it got truck running. Insulation was holding it in place. It will work out. If and when I get it running I am going to let it run a bunch and maybe it will break in. I have had that happen with other scale locos. Rough when new and they break in and then run fine. Thanks again Mike.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

The rough running could very well be the reverse unit. When mine failed it was intermittent in forward, but OK in reverse. I don't know about the availability of a replacement reverse unit, or if a "new" one would be any better. That's why I replaced with one I had in another loco. In other forums, people said these motors drew a lot of current, but I only saw about 2.5 amps at 9 V with 4 cars on level track. The Dallee 4 amp unit (about $50) should work, the 10 amp version is $70, I think. The old unit from the 80's that I had used relays for switching, rather than transistors/SCRs and could handle more current. I rewired the motors to only use one field like classic AF. If you want to go that route, I can help. Or, as you suggested, swap the shells.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Thanks for posting the diagrams Mikeh49. Always helps to have them when you need them.:thumbsup:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have saved the diagrams. Thanks Mike.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

LOL, the story continues. I still hate these diesels but my Southern Pacific PA loco
is running very smooth. BUT SHE AIN"T RIGHT. It is going to stay like this for a long
time. Tired of working on it. This is what I did. Don't laugh. I hooked the brown wire
up to where Mike said. I had some problems. A coil wire came loose, and the tie point
Mike mentioned was broken. I DIDN"T DO IT. Anyway I had all wires hooked up and
rear truck was still not working. So I cut wires to rear motor and removed the rear motor
so rear truck was freewheelen. YEP, just removed rear motor and gears, and she runs very smooth with just the front motor. It won't have as much pulling power but runs
very smooth. Even from a stop and at slow speed. I am happy with it and that is what
counts. It struggled to pull 5 passenger cars with both motors running. The copper pick
up strips are too much drag on the passenger cars. Yes, they are junk also. Cars don't
roll well. I bent the copper strips down on one car and the car rolled great. Its just poor
design all through these lionel turds. I guess I will just loose the lights and bend all my copper strips down. The cars will roll fine then. What a shame, these sets are beautiful.
They are a P I T A. You have to reengineer them to run good.

Thanks to everybody for the help. Just wanted to let you know the outcome. I am done. LOL.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> LOL, the story continues. I still hate these diesels but my Southern Pacific PA loco
> is running very smooth. BUT SHE AIN"T RIGHT. It is going to stay like this for a long
> time. Tired of working on it. This is what I did. Don't laugh. I hooked the brown wire
> up to where Mike said. I had some problems. A coil wire came loose, and the tie point
> ...


Lionel's quality control is garbage. I buy MTH whenever I want some O gauge stuff.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Didn't many of the original AF diesels have single motor? At least I will have some replacement parts. Armature, gears. As long as the cars roll good I think this will work.

I have an idea for the passenger cars. The copper strips lionel used are just too stiff and they drag on the axles too much. The idea is to bend the copper strips down and away from the axles. Get a brass tube a little bigger than the axles. Cut tube into 1/2" pieces.
Pull the wheels. Remove one wheel from each axle. Slide a tube piece on. Replace wheel.
Solder a wire to outside of tube piece and other end of wire to the copper strip. I think
that will be a lot less drag on axles.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

Gilbert had a 5 digit single motor Santa Fe PA in 1960 or so that came in a set with a red stripe baggage combine, dome and observation. Two position reverse unit. Ran good for me as a kid, pulled the passenger cars or 5-6 freight cars just fine on a flat layout.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Flyer had a few sets that came with a single motor PA. The Comet 53-55, the El Capitan in 56, the New Clipper in 57, and as Mikeh49 said the Chief in 60-62. The Bankers in 59 had a single motor EP-5 electric. All came with 3 streamliner cars. There were a couple 4 streamliner car sets with a single PA, the Missouri Pacific and the Northern Pacific but I'm not positive if they were single or twin motors. Sorry mopac you couldn't get it straightened out with both motors. Just don't overwork the single motor with too many cars. Just to add, I forgot the Silver Streak in 1952.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks cramden. I feel lucky to have one motor running in this turd. I have no idea what is wrong with the bad motor. Not worth messing with. I have over 200 model train locos
of various brands and this one is the worst designed loco I have seen. All the other engines make sense. Nothing about this one makes sense to me. I know I have said this
before but this is poor design combined with poor quality. Not a good combo.


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