# N vs Ho



## deboardfam (Oct 8, 2010)

I am torn between N scale and HO. I want a nice layout that I can put work into and have quite a bit of scenery but I have VERY limited space in my house. I have already bought some HO scale but still am torn. I dont know enough about the scales or possibilities to make a decision. The space I have and am limited to I will probably be able to do a 3x8 sheet and a 3x4 sheet to make an L shape in the corner of the room. That is pushing it as well. I dont think that will be big enough to do anything remotely interesting in HO scale. 

The problem is N scale seems to be more expensive and less easy to find locally. I have already bought a few HO scale things as well.

I have an really good sized attic but it isnt insulated, heated, or cooled. Not easily accessible, etc. It hasnt left my mind but it is kind of far fetched.

Are there quality scenery items (people, lighted stuff) available for n scale just like HO? Will the zephyr control N without a proble? Are their sound DCC engines in N? What would you guys go with in the limited space I have above? Please help.. I have cash burning a hole in my pocket.


----------



## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

That is enough space for a good HO point-to-point switching module or a tight radius traction line for continuous operations. Even continuous ops are possible with tight radius narrow gauge or standard gauge switchers. 

What are you after...mainline Class 1 railroading or shortline branch? That makes all the difference in the world. 

N scale is great for that kind of space but, as you've pointed out, the price point is different, production costs have to be recovered over a smaller market share. HO has a larger following, making recouping production costs much easier that in N. HO has been around much longer and built in greater numbers, making it a very affordable scale.

I've noted little price difference in my pursuit of BOTH scales in my hobby work. Why? Because my tastes are eclectic and my purchasing policies just this side of ruthless 

As one's interests and focus narrows, i.e. prototype, era, brand, DC vs. DCC, the costs involved go up exponentially. After years of doing just about everything in this hobby to the Nth degree, I've long since learned that I simply enjoy the smell of ozone and the joy of bringing life to a pile of parts, and all for as little monetary output as possible. This affects the final price considerably.

In short, final goals = final price. Focus on what it is you're looking to get out of the hobby first BEFORE you lay out too much coin in any one direction, THEN pursue that course, honing and refining your vision as you go along.


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Second the size being a down side in order to do a simple HO layout about the smallest you would want to go is with 4 X 8 sheet. 3 foot is just too small!
You could do a killer layout with that size of space with N.
Yes Zephyr will run N rather nicely! 
Sound in N does get up there a little bit in price.
Your going to spend a little more on N but in the long run you will never notice. distances are smaller so your overall material cost are cheaper! 
IMHO sound is the last thing to worry about! 
Learn to setup, build, wire, and landscape then work on building a fleet!
Get a simple DCC engine and learn the basics of operating it then upgrade to others!


----------



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I do N scale due to my dad making me a layout many years ago as a teenager. I found a box of my original N scale cars several months ago which got me back into the hobby big time. I had to convert them all to modern couplers but I didn't mind. 

What I like is the size vs. detailing. They are like little jewels you can hold in the palm of your hand, sounds a little corny but it's true. When I pick up a HO car or engine it's seems like such a huge thing! That makes HO easy to work on but I prefer the amazing detail of N scale vs. the size, not to mention you can get a bigger layout in a given space.


----------



## kursplat (Dec 8, 2010)

check out the small layout scrapbookfor some good idea's of what's possible with a small space.

i wouldn't call your potential layout size small, you can get alot of operations and scenery in there, even in HO


----------



## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

I prefer HO for just about the same reason that X runner likes N, I had it when I was a kid. Right now I have a small layout in a shed that is 9x9 and I still have to use the shed as a work shop and storage. I had played around with the idea of making an around the walls ceiling layout but my wife did not want me to build it in the living area of the house were we could all enjoy it, I was limited to our bedroom. Well for the kids that is fine and they are going to get a bedroom ceiling layout here soon. Now I have a thing about my layouts that I must have continous running no matter what. Sometimes I dont feel like switching cars, I just find sitting and watching trains run around in circles is very stimulating, this is a part I must have, you need to ask yourself if you must have continous running. IF so then you are going to have to decide on what type of equipment you want to determine your minimum radii. 

Again here I had to make a compromise, I model modern day, I love the large 6 axle class 1 diesels but my layout is small and I have mostly 18" radii so my running those is very limited. I mainly run GP38-2s and GP35s on my layout. These are engines you still see on the rails today but they are not the big engines. That was my compromise. You may have to make a decision like this as well.

Have you considered something around the walls? Artii is making an around the walls near ceiling layout at his place and from what I can tell it is comming along great and it is allowing him to run trains and it looks really nice. 

My shed is not climate controlled, it gets hot as can be in the summer so I use some desk fans and a room fan to keep me cool, in the winter I have a cheapy ceramic heater that makes the train room a nice temp even when there is ice outside. That being said, how limited is the access to your attic? Can you get materials up there to build? can you provide light and does the attic have walls and ceiling coverings? If so you may have a better chance at getting everything you need building there.

Massey


----------



## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

What locomotives do you plan to run? If you want to build an HO logging layout small 0-4-0 can easily run on 15r curves. I have run Mantua 0-4-0ts on 12r track without issue. Athearn BB F7 and some of the small 4 axle geeps can also handle 15r turns. One of the wings on my layout is only three feet wide.


----------



## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

OK I have to stop you here Pete, I have a layout at the moment that has all but one curve is 18", 2 switches are snap switches and one is a #6 the other 8 or 9 switches are all #4 and everything runs reliably with 4 or 6 axle engines. I will admit that I have not yet ran a steam engine on my layout but I am fully confident that any of the steam engines that are capable of running on the 18" curves will still run reliably. 

As for the expense of a model railroad. What it costs is more dependant on the modeler than on a general figure of expensive. I have built my current layout for less than $300 in new money spent, the rest of the layout was built out of wood I had laying around and recycled track. Now I could have bought everything new and would have already spent over $1000 for what I currently have. If I had bought scenic products from a model supplier I would be out several hundred right now for what I spent $4.00 for from home depot. Building a module or a layout does not have to be expensive and it can always be done on a budget. If you always buy the name brand scenery products and all of the prebuilt structures you will have a mind numbing expensive layout. Find other sources for your scenery stuff such as what is in your back yard, look for things that were never intended to be used for the use they may be able to preform to lower the expense and try buying kits or stock pieces and build your own buildings.

Massey


----------



## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Yes long wheel base rigid steam does not like small radii, it even will tell you so on the instructions that come with said engines. I have a 2-8-8-2 that will take 18" just fine but another 4-8-2 that wont. Alot of it will depend on the engine. And yes the larger radii looks better no matter what you run. Some times it is just a matter of what you have to give up just to have a layout, and in my case I have to use the 18" radii and give up being able to run some of my longer equipement.

Massey


----------



## deboardfam (Oct 8, 2010)

Looks like I am going to have to switchup my research and start researching N scale. So the prebuilts for like $80 for buildings and things. What other options? I saw someone posting about sourcing stuff from lowes and backyards etc to have a cheaper layout. That would be great then I could spend more money on the engines and things. I really want a sound engine and to be able to do a few continuous loops so I am just going to have to switch it up to N scale. I will be returning my flex track and everything I bought and getting all N. That is the issue. I am new to the hobby so I am having to buy everything new.


----------



## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Well new is nice but some hunting on Ebay should get you some good deals
as well. That might just extend your hobby dollars a bit further.

Pookybear


----------



## deboardfam (Oct 8, 2010)

OMG ebay has blew up my hobby money lol.
All these lots of buildings, people. trees for like $5-10.. I dont even know how many ive bid/won at this point. So.. thats awesome. Should let me get a REALLY nice sound steamer.. then just a few basic DCC diesels as welll. Then I will be set. N scale it is. Gotta return my stuff and get a bunch more N track.


----------



## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Debardfam you are very close to being able to run HO and you already have some HO stuff. What you need is just a smidg more room at each end of the "L" so you can have a continuous track around the outside. Get a pencil and a string and figure out how much you need to add to the edge of the table at each end for a 22" radius turn. With 22R on the outside you can run 18 on the inside and have lots of room for yards and industry and scenery ect.
If there's no way to add a little to each end of the "L" then you need to go with "N" scale. The three foot width is your determining factor and at that width "N" scale will give you the best performance with nice wide curves that look good. If you try to incorporate all these if's, and's and but's you'll never get going at all. Pete


----------



## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

I was the one talking about sourcing stuff from other places to use on your layout and save money. Just think Woodland Scenics stuff is great, I really like it but most of it can be sourced from your back yard or from your local home improvement store for cheap. Want to make trees? Find twigs and branches in your back yard (or your neighbors) and break off a few of the extras until you have a good looking tree, remove the pine needles of course before adding foam foiliage. You can also use the twigs as tree trunks and some wire (copper or steel available at home improvement stores for cheap) as the branches. Sand can be colored with dyes and inks to provide a wide range of surface colors, using play sand for this will provide the best results. Regular sand or landscaping sand will have various sized grains and some added little stones which would make a great bed for a lake, river, body of water, farm, mountain or what not. I once came across a video about making ground foam for pennies. This involved some paint or dye, some pillow foam (makeup sponges would work great here too) and an old blender... You get the idea! 

Modeling does not have to be a huge expense, you just have to get creative. 

As for the size of the layout... Well there is not alot you can do there, physics and all that. I would recomend that you research what each scale takes to built what you want and then after you find which one may suit your needs the best then stick with that scale. I prefer HO personally, N is just a little too small and the price is not really all that attractive. I can get HO equipment cheaper, engines at about the same price, structures are a little cheaper and decoders are ALOT cheaper. Granted I have a small layout that really only has 2 industries to switch, and I could have a HUGE layout if this was N with many industries and long trains but to me it is just not worth the money. HO looks better IMHO and it functions better too. Just my $.02

Massey


----------



## deboardfam (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys.. love the sand idea. My buddy owns a pool store and I can get a 50lb bag of bright white sand for like $8. 

I am definately going to go N due to limited space. I would prefer HO but.. just had to bite the bullet. If i wanted the scenes and things and have a decent size track to run, had to be N. I will have an HO setup at some point though, when I get a new house.


----------

