# Question for FlyerNut, Cramden or AMFlyer or whoever



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I was told that the side to side play of the axles on a Pacific chassis was not as critical as the top to bottom. On my 312 K5 I get about 1/8 of an inch side to side play. I think that is excessive. But what do I know.:dunno: The top to bottom is about 1/16 of an inch. So, should I replace the bearings?:dunno::dunno:


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Some side play is necessary, 1/8" sounds like too much but as long as there is no side rod binding, interference or exterior wheel face rubbing on the rods it would be ok. Interesting it is possible to have that much with properly gauged wheels.
1/16" top to bottom is too much. That should be redone. 
I just looked at some of my engines. They all have some side play. By eyeball it looks around 1/16" None have any measurable top to bottom play. If any it might be 1/64" to 1/100".


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

After Broke was thinking his bushings might need replacing I checked a few of mine.
They have some play but not enough I am worried about them. I just did side to side. Never thought about top to bottom. Guess I will have to check them again someday. Not having any problems with them so I would say they are ok.


I do not think these old flyers were built to rigid standards. That's probably why they still run. flyernut says he looks at his engines and wonders about the original owners. I do too. Would love to know more about the young boys that got these for Christmas and other occasions. I bet a lot of them their moms gave their trains away.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

A 1/8" sounds like too much to me. I'm working on 2 Atlantics I just received Monday, and both of them are way less than 1/8, closer to 1/16". Like AmFlyer says, I would check your gauging. And don't forget, the wheels are not flush on the inside part of the wheel with the rim. They have a area that surrounds the axle and sticks out a small bit, that's the area that contacts the chassis first.This area could have been rubbed away, causing excessive side to side excessive movement.. Let me get a picture of what I'm talking about as I don't think I've made myself clear.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Here's a picture of the area that sticks out from the rim/wheel.. I checked approx 8 wheel/rims, and that area measures .025-.026. I highly doubt that could be the issue as that material seems to be harder than the brass bushings, but you never know. Again, I agree with AmFlyer, check your gauging.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I think the deciding factor is the vertical movement. 1/16" of vertical play shows that the diameter of the bushing hole, at least in the vertical dimension, is about twice the diameter of the axle. These need to be repaired for proper running.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

flyernut said:


> A 1/8" sounds like too much to me. I'm working on 2 Atlantics I just received Monday, and both of them are way less than 1/8, closer to 1/16". Like AmFlyer says, I would check your gauging. And don't forget, the wheels are not flush on the inside part of the wheel with the rim. They have a area that surrounds the axle and sticks out a small bit, that's the area that contacts the chassis first.This area could have been rubbed away, causing excessive side to side excessive movement.. Let me get a picture of what I'm talking about as I don't think I've made myself clear.


The problem is when using a 30:1 dc motor there is a lot of gear noise. It is not constant but always there. Steve from S-N-S Trains said that the slow speed motor makes more noise than the regular. I think that there is too much play between the worm gear and the drive gear and smoker gear. I think that it is caused by too much play with the axles. But what do I know? If I knew anything I wouldn't be messing with +65 year old trains!:hah::hah::hah:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke not sure of how much of a hassel it would be but maybe trade the K5 motor with your northern motor. You did not seem to have any trouble with the northern set up.
And just see results. Your main gear may have too much wear. If your axle bushings have too much wear the drive gear could have too much wear and not meshing with the worm gear correctly. Jeez, that would be a lot of wear. Never seen it.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

There might be a bad gear with the can motor. A little nick in a gear could cause some noise. Those can motor gears are not as stout as the gears in your locomotive.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I think you are right Fred. The 30:1 worm is less tolerant of wear than the original Gilbert worm gears.


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## Sagas (Dec 13, 2013)

I tend to agree with mopac and AmFlyer. The Flyer gears are more robust and forgiving with respect to wear. I had converted one steamer to a can motor thinking it would be a vast improvement and found no advantage in performance. It actually was worse and after wasting many days modifying, adapting and general fiddling went back to the original. The "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." adage does hold true most of the time.

For the later Lionel versions they may be fine considering that the gearing is designed to mate and work properly with them. Since I don't own any of the Lionel except a few freight cars, this is just a humble opinion. J.B.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have told this story a couple times so those that have heard it please indulge me to tell it again. It does kinda pertain to Broke's problem. In 1955 my uncle gave me his 3 year old 282 with cars. He was a teenager and had grown tired of the train. I was 5 years old and loved the train. I ran it as much as I could. My dad was the best mechanic I ever knew. But he did not solder. Twice the tender wires broke. My dad sent it off to a train shop to get the wires fixed. The second time it came back, the train ran real slow right out of the box. I knew right off my train was screwed. The motor was getting really hot when I would try to run it. The train was boxed up. 20 or so years later I was married and had 2 sons. I then wanted to run the train for my sons hoping they would love it like I had. It still ran slow and motor got hot. For the next 25 years, I took it apart each year and hoped that when I put it back together it would run right. I got on this S forum hoping to get some help on my 282. I did not get the help but the forum got me revved up to make me determined to fix my 282. I finally bought
a running parts chassis and started changing parts. When I changed the armature my 282 took off and ran great. I was more happy than you can imagine. Some how the train shop that my dad had sent the train to had put a bad armature in my train. I had come very close to putting a can motor in the 282. I thought that might be the only way to get it to run again. I am glad I didn't now. I now know that any of the old flyers can be fixed with maybe a parts change. Bottom line, Broke, put your K5 back original and change parts to get it running correctly. It will. I still consider getting my 282 running great again is one of the biggest thrills of my life.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> I have told this story a couple times so those that have heard it please indulge me to tell it again. It does kinda pertain to Broke's problem. In 1955 my uncle gave me his 3 year old 282 with cars. He was a teenager and had grown tired of the train. I was 5 years old and loved the train. I ran it as much as I could. My dad was the best mechanic I ever knew. But he did not solder. Twice the tender wires broke. My dad sent it off to a train shop to get the wires fixed. The second time it came back, the train ran real slow right out of the box. I knew right off my train was screwed. The motor was getting really hot when I would try to run it. The train was boxed up. 20 or so years later I was married and had 2 sons. I then wanted to run the train for my sons hoping they would love it like I had. It still ran slow and motor got hot. For the next 25 years, I took it apart each year and hoped that when I put it back together it would run right. I got on this S forum hoping to get some help on my 282. I did not get the help but the forum got me revved up to make me determined to fix my 282. I finally bought
> a running parts chassis and started changing parts. When I changed the armature my 282 took off and ran great. I was more happy than you can imagine. Some how the train shop that my dad had sent the train to had put a bad armature in my train. I had come very close to putting a can motor in the 282. I thought that might be the only way to get it to run again. I am glad I didn't now. I now know that any of the old flyers can be fixed with maybe a parts change. Bottom line, Broke, put your K5 back original and change parts to get it running correctly. It will. I still consider getting my 282 running great again is one of the biggest thrills of my life.


Thanks for the advice!:thumbsup: I wanted a 30:1 reduction can motor because the one thing that I do not like about post war American Flyers is the fast speed. Even from the start! I thought that I would like a more prototypical scale speed. But so far, all I have obtained are more frustrations and extra cost.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, I know you like slower speed. I do also. Most videos I watch the flyers are, well, flying. I think that is why they were called flyers. Still does not change that you and me like slower. More scale speed. We have discussed this before. Broke, it is the AF transformers. They have a start voltage of 7 volts. That is almost half of the 15 volts that is maximum from the transformer. So you are half throttle right off the bat. I have suggested you get a Lionel ZW transformer. They have a start voltage of 2 to 2 1/2 volts. Big difference from 7 volts. I am telling you I can run my flyers slow. You have spent enough on can motors and dallee reverse units you could have had a ZW transformer. Mine will go up to 20 volts. Really a bit much for a flyer. I only use it for a few seconds to get the smoke going. I think max volts for a flyer is 17 volts. A few seconds of 20 has not hurt my flyers. Just saying, I will never use an AF transformer again. I think 7 volts start is stupid.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

The real reason that I don't have a ZW is that it would not fit on my Ping Pong Layout without a lot of rerouting track and rewiring of accessory buttons. I am getting too old to want to take that on now.:laugh::laugh::laugh: But, you got me thinking Al!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Not trying to spend your money. But the ZW works for me for slow speed. When, or if, I get my layout built, My ZW will not sit on layout either. I have or will build a small table for it to sit on. I don't even want it on the layout. I know you have space restrictions. The
transformer table could even sit under the layout some. The ZW is not that big. Yes probably bigger than your transformer but its not that much bigger.

My grandfather built a small table before I was born. That's the table I plan to use. Table is less than 2 foot by 2 foot. Something like a toaster would sit on. I think it was a kitchen table.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Not sure what they are called. I call them stack tables. You might even have one. But that would work.

The ZWs are as old as our flyers. I have been lately getting a real stupid idea. I want a ZW-L transformer.
They are new and have the coolest meters built into them. I think amps and voltage meters. Here is the stupid
part. They are in the 800.00 range. They are so cool.. Need to win big at the casino. I think Tom has said he has 2 or 3 of them. I have not seen one in person but I think they have the Lionel name on the front and it lights up when turned on.
They look like the old ZW.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I will look into that Mopac!:thumbsup:


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I will put in my free comments and they are worth what you paid for them. I have no idea what the start voltage is on postwar Lionel transformers because I do not own any. I do have a pair of modern Lionel ZW-L's on my big layout. These start linearly from zero volts to a maximum of 18V. A well maintained and lubricated Gilbert engine will run almost as slow as some of my modern Legacy engines using the ZW-L. What I do not like is the choo choo sound is barely there and they do not smoke when just creeping along at very low voltage. I find myself running them just as fast as always because they are more fun that way. The smoke units could be rebuilt to smoke at 3V to 5V if desired. At 3V I cannot even see the lights in the passenger cars. Also I can run any of my Gilbert engines completely around the layout without the reverse unit getting enough voltage to cycle. At very low track voltage any pickup or conductivity problems are magnified.
There are many successful installs of the can motor with the half speed worm. Since the worm gear ratio and thereby the pitch of the worm is different it works best with a like new condition driven gear and drive train. The advantage is it puts the track voltage up higher for the smoke unit and lights. It also eliminates the hum from the now not used reverse unit.
I am not in any way recommending against using a Lionel transformer, its just that as a personal preference its just not as much fun to run the Gilbert steam engines so slow. I do like running the diesels very slow. When I want slow the Legacy engines will move 12"/minute with 15V on the track while putting out clouds of smoke.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Mainly I like slow running bringing train into station. That is nice the ZW-L starts at zero. Can't get no better than that. I have an AF 12B transformer that I used to use for my AF and my O scale. It has been retired since I got a ZW. I have a brand new Lionel CW-80 transformer. It is out of a O scale box set I got from a member here on the forum. I need to get my meter and see the volt range for it. It is not a power house. But will run one locomotive.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Legacy sounds like it does what DCC does. Controlled volts to the motor and full track power to lights and smoke unit.
I have DCC for my HO and N trains.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Both are digital control systems that work with full voltage on the track. DCC has smaller decoders and offers much more programmability and a larger choice of sounds. It is an open system. Many S scale operators use it.
Legacy is much simpler to set up and does not use the track to communicate with the engines. It is proprietary to Lionel and has the complementary Layout Control System for iPads. It excels at high current demands. If an engine needs 5A for all its motors, smoke units and light/sound, no problem. If a layout needs 100A to the track, no problem. My layout has power to supply 60A to the track (max 10A to a single Power District) but the most I ever saw so far in an operating session was a little under 20A.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I was told that the side to side play of the axles on a Pacific chassis was not as critical as the top to bottom. On my 312 K5 I get about 1/8 of an inch side to side play. I think that is excessive. But what do I know.:dunno: The top to bottom is about 1/16 of an inch. So, should I replace the bearings?:dunno::dunno:


I got a lot of noise with a 30:1 dc motor so I thought that it must be too much play with the gears and axles. I ordered a standard dc motor and the is far less noise. However, I still think that there is too much axle play. But, I am not going to do any thing about it. That is why I bought a second 312.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I got a lot of noise with a 30:1 dc motor so I thought that it must be too much play with the gears and axles. I ordered a standard dc motor and the is far less noise. However, I still think that there is too much axle play. But, I am not going to do any thing about it. That is why I bought a second 312.


Sell it and get another 312, maybe a Hudson, or a Northern.


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