# My layout plan



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I'm new to this, so forgive any ignorance. I'm trying to plan this ahead so I about mistakes or disappointment. Here is my basic plan. I need to try and get this into one of the design planning programs, they are just kind of awkward I'm my opinion, so it seemed easier to start with this. And using the programs to do a flex track curve is almost impossible. I'm aiming for a double oval with a tunnel on one end for one track. Flex track for the large oval bends and r18 for the inner track. I'm hoping for a max table width of 42", 40" would be even better. 

All that said, what is the minimum distance between rails (HO)? 










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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

2"
Wider on curves to prevent interference, say, 2-1/2" min


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

If you do 18" radius curves on the inner loop, that will put the center-line of the inner loop from one side of the table to the other at 36". Note that this is the center-line. Outside to outside will be closer to 38-1/2". Give yourself 2" track spacing, so now you're looking at 42-1/2" outer edge to outer edge from one side of the table to the other. You should really have at least 1-1/2" between the table edge and the track, and even then you will need some type of barrier 2-3" higher than the table edge all along each side to keep the train from taking the death plunge to the floor. 1/8" hardboard would suffice. So with two tracks as you propose the minimum table width I would go for would be 45-3/4". Spare another 2-1/4" and you have a 48" wide table, the width of a standard sheet of plywood. So in all practicality, trying to run two tracks with the inner on 18" radius on a 40-42" wide table really isn't going to work. Is there any way at all you can go 48"? If reaching across the table is an issue, put the layout on casters so you can pull it away from the wall when needed. Once the layout is built and wired, you probably won't be needing to get to the back side as often as you think you will.
Other than that you have a nice start to your layout.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Kind of afraid of that. There really isn't a way to make it movable where I'm putting it. The ledge as is is about 35 inches. The plan is to use plywood to lay over it and extend it out to the desired width. Reach is a concern, although it may be doable. It's low to the ground, so that helps. And with the center open you could please on that it even crawl in there (or have my son do it). I'm concerned 48" will stick out to far into the room though.
















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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

I suggest laying it out with the 15" radius and see if your train will negotiate it. Just don't make it permanent. 
Then you will know for sure, in your own experience. 
What radius was that circular loop in the pic you posted?


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Get rid of the "s" in the upper right. Make it a "slightly angled" section of track instead.

Not sure what the two "spurs" on left and right at bottom are for.
Better to put a small "yard" in the middle of the plan.

Maybe an industry or two opposite the yard "on the other side".

Keep the minimum radius on the inside to 18" (or more).
Perhaps 22" radius for the outer track.

Make sure you have a way to access "the far side" of the railroad when necessary.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

J.Albert1949 said:


> Make sure you have a way to access "the far side" of the railroad when necessary.


Spiderman shoes???


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Bachmann recommends 18" but... only one way to know for sure. And it's free (assuming you have flex track)


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

I'm not trying to spark a flame war, but you have a specific set of guidelines to which you need to adhere, and you may not be going for the more realistic appearance of the larger radius. If they'll stay on the track, your boy will be happy!
Heck, he might like it if they wreck, too!! (I didn't say that)


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

A couple of thoughts here. First, on layout software. If this is how simple your layout is going to be, then save your money and don't bother with the software. If you're going to go a little more complex, thennit's probably worth your time and money to get one. My personal preference is Anyrail, but keep in mind that these are all CAD (computer aided design) programs, and you're not going to just install it and start cranking out layout plans. There is a learning curve, especially for people not already familiar with some of the basic concepts.

Something you might consider, since you essentially have an oval with a lot of dead space in the center, is squeeze the two sides together, making a longer layout with two larger blobs at each end for the loops to turn the trains around. This may help solve some reach and space issues.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

cid said:


> I'm not trying to spark a flame war, but you have a specific set of guidelines to which you need to adhere, and you may not be going for the more realistic appearance of the larger radius. If they'll stay on the track, your boy will be happy!
> Heck, he might like it if they wreck, too!! (I didn't say that)


Actually, I think you nailed it. O got so caught up in the information that says about 15" turns I didn't even think to try it. We aren't after realistic looking railways right now. If my son really gets into it and wants to do that later we can go that route with some more drastic modifications to the room. 

I also like the idea of squeezing the sides in so they are closer. Good call

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Kind of afraid of that. There really isn't a way to make it movable where I'm putting it. The ledge as is is about 35 inches. The plan is to use plywood to lay over it and extend it out to the desired width. Reach is a concern, although it may be doable. It's low to the ground, so that helps. And with the center open you could please on that it even crawl in there (or have my son do it). I'm concerned 48" will stick out to far into the room though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

There is a way to make your layout somewhat "moveable." You could mount heavy-duty drawer slides between the shelf, and your extension board. Then the entire layout could be rolled out to get access to the back. You could also get the 48" width you need, and still get the layout out of the way when it wasn't being run. Add a hinged board to give you the extra width. It could be folded up for storage. Also consider curved ends on the portion of your board that projects into the room. Curves are a lot kinder than sharp corners, when you ram them with your shins! A 1 x 3 plank, with padding on the outside edge would be even better.

Traction Fan


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

With just the F7A and B unit, my train seems to do fine on the r15 for a full 360. That's about as much as I can test right now until I get more cars. But I think it will work. The cars might be lighter, so I might need some weight to help keep them down but it looks promising. 

I do think I will put the full 48" width up there to start and see how it goes. I can to it down later if we need to, but if it works ok, I'll have more room for expansion. 

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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

may have already been said but maybe somewhere to allow for the reverse direction. or maybe its there and just not jumping out at me. i have the same kind of thing where it's easy to do a couple of ovals and then have a entry/exit point -- but crossing it or providing a reserve gets a bit more tricky due to space issues -- which i've also had. maybe someone smart here can suggest some ideas if they agree. 

basically "playability" ...


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Severn said:


> may have already been said but maybe somewhere to allow for the reverse direction. or maybe its there and just not jumping out at me. i have the same kind of thing where it's easy to do a couple of ovals and then have a entry/exit point -- but crossing it or providing a reserve gets a bit more tricky due to space issues -- which i've also had. maybe someone smart here can suggest some ideas if they agree.
> 
> basically "playability" ...


I'll have to think on that one, not sure I'm seeing the need. But there's probably a lot I won't get until I get some experience with it.

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Some good progress and evolution of what was a loose plan. I’m sure it could be better with a better thought out plan, but I also have a 6 yo that is VERY involved in the process and he is making some of the decisions. I’m incredibly proud of how he is handling it, very diligent with taking care of the trains and he is having a blast doing it!

Some questions coming up. He REALLY wants a tunnel...so do I. I’m afraid that is really going to be challenging. There is room of course. The back right corner would be perfect. But actually making a tunnel/mountain seems daunting. It seems there is no real easy button here if you want it to look like a mountain or any type of f scenery. 

With all that said, how are the woodland scenic kits? That seems the easiest route, nut I don’t know what I’m doing at all? Is it a plaster kit? Something else? I just want enough mountain to run the two tracks through the corner, maybe 3-4ft of tunnel. A simple valley that is high enough to hide he train would be the second choice.

What are my options? It doesn’t have to be perfect. Remember this is also a play area for a 6yo (soon to be 7). Here is a picture of where we are now. Buildings will come next, but slowly;along with more roadway.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Last pic is proposed location of the tunnel/mountain as depicted by my son's drawing! 






























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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

My suggestion for building the mountain and tunnel through it is to build it using extruded solid foam insulation material. You can buy it at most home improvement stores. Get the 2" thick stuff if you can. You can use basic hand saws to cut and shape it to the rough dimensions of your mountain. Start with the bottom layer which will have the tunnel through it leaving the track path open to form the side walls of the tunnel. Glue successive layers on top of each other. When you have sufficient layers to clear the height of the train, then your next layers can form the roof of the tunnel and continue building up the height of the mountain. Once the glue is dried, you can further shape the mountain with hand saws and a rasp. It will be a bit of a mess with shavings, so keep a vacuum near by to pick up the particles. Some people have had good success with carving rock facings directly into the foam while others put a finishing layer of plaster or drywall compound over the foam. You can then prime the mountain surface and color it, put any grass or trees on it, etc. The foam will make the mountain very light weight. You probably don't need to glue it down to your layout which will allow you to lift it off to clean the track or retrieve a derailed car or engine. Please keep us informed of your progress.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

I agree with what Mark said: extruded foam insulation board. Once the shape is built, take it outside and let your son apply plaster cloth over it. That's a messy job, and if he's a typical boy he'll LOVE it! Plaster cloth is made by a number of manufacturers. It's basically gauze impregnated with plaster. Dip in water for a few seconds then put it on the mountain. Let the first layer dry, then give it another layer. Double the fun! Once the plaster cloth is dry, you can go over it with a layer of Sculptamold, or just paint it and call it done. Have fun with it! 
Here you go, hide one of these guys in the trees on the mountain:








HO scale bigfoot


The mythical Backwoods Beast is alive.....RUN.....RUN..... A fun character to add to your layout. He is very "Beastly" and comes all painted and ready to add to your scenes. Ho Scale Figures by Model Tech Studios LLC



modeltechstudios.com


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks guys. Doesn't sound too bad. Would it be wise to use something as a form for the tunnel and lay the foam over it? Or just the foam? And what do you use to glue it? Mod podge? I'll be making a hobby lobby run tomorrow so I plan to pick up a few supplies. Looks like 1.25" is the thickest foam board I can get locally,I love in a warm climate.

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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

The thickness isn't critical, just means more layers. For gluing foam to foam, what I have found works really well is PPG Gripper primer paint. It used to be Glidden, but PPG bought 'em out. Home Depot has it, but only in gallons for about $25. Liguid Nails for Projects works well, too. It comes in a tube, like caulk, so you'll need a caulking gun for it. Don't buy regular Liquid Nails, it will eat the foam. Hobby Lobby should have the plaster cloth. 
You won't have to build a form for the tunnel, the foam will be strong enough by itself.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks, I'll see what I can find and let you know how it goes.

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Thanks guys. Doesn't sound too bad. Would it be wise to use something as a form for the tunnel and lay the foam over it? Or just the foam? And what do you use to glue it? Mod podge? I'll be making a hobby lobby run tomorrow so I plan to pick up a few supplies. Looks like 1.25" is the thickest foam board I can get locally,I love in a warm climate.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vette-kid;

A form for the tunnel won't be necessary, unless you want a realistic- looking tunnel wall all the way through the tunnel's length. Given the type of simple, kid friendly, layout you have, I would think such a tunnel lining would be something you can do without. (indeed, most of us do)
I agree with Mark's suggestion about using extruded foam. Just make sure the foam you buy is pink, blue, or green, and very rigid. The white stuff is Styrofoam "beadboard" and it's much weaker, more flexible, and creates a veritable blizzard of white beads going everywhere. Cutting extruded foam is messy enough, but you ain't seen messy until you cut Styrofoam! The rough cuts can be made with a hand saw. The "Surform rasps" shown in the photo are good for shaping the foam into a mountain. I tape the end of a shop vac hose right onto the rasp to gather up shavings as they are generated. This cuts down on the mess considerably. Final shaping can be done with sandpaper.

Foam can be glued with most non-solvent-based adhesives. Regular Elmer's glue (not the "school glue" type) works well, and is safe around kids. Coat both surfaces to be joined, completely, with a thin layer of glue let it dry for 5 minutes and then assemble the layers. You can try sliding/pulling them apart. If pulling produces little "stalactites & stalagmites" of glue, that indicates the glue is ready for bonding. Smooth those bumps out into an even glue surface again. This can be done with fingers and palms of a six-year-old, just have a bucket of soapy water, and some rags handy. Next, put the two pieces of foam together permanently. The thinner foam you have will work fine, you'll just need more layers. When you get the top layer on, gently lay some very heavy weights on top of your mountain. A 1' square concrete "paver" stone, or weights from a barbell or bricks, will work. As you add the weights, watch out for sliding of the foam layers. Try to add the weights straight down to minimise sliding. Let the mountain dry overnight.

I don't think adding plaster cloth is necessary. I would just paint the mountain with dirt-brown latex house paint. (Check Home Depot's collection of "leftover, customer didn't want it" paint for bargains.) While the paint is still wet, you can sift on the "dirt" material of your choice with a tea strainer. I use the real thing very finely sifted, but there are commercial scenery materials that can be used instead. Your son might enjoy digging and sifting some dirt though. For grass, I use Woodland Scenics commercial ground foam.

Definitely do take Mark's excellent suggestion to leave the tunnel/mountain removable. He's right that track will need cleaning, and cars need to be put back on track inside there. With the partitions you have in that corner, I don't see any way of getting at the tunnel track, other than lifting off the mountain.

Your mountain will need trees, and commercial trees in any quantity, are quite expensive. There are two basic kinds of trees, and one is easier to make than the other. The types are "deciduous", the common type that loses its leaves in autumn, and "conifers" (evergreens) that keep their needles through the year. Deciduous trees can be made with twigs or hedge clippings that look like miniature trees. A commercial scenery product calle "foliage" can be stretched over the twigs for "leaves." On second thought, Your not going to need all that many trees for your small layout. Woodland scenics sell tree kits for both deciduous and conifer trees. You may as well just use those. Your son should enjoy assembling the tree kits. 

Good Luck & Have Fun!

Traction Fan


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks TF! Good advice all. I will be doing this as suggested. It seems it would be easier to get a mountain shape using the cloth rather than shaping the foam. I was watching some guys on YouTube use cotton batting instead of plaster cloth. Any merit to that idea? Send they both accomplish the same thing, so I'm not sure what the benefits would be, plaster would probably be stronger.

Once the plaster is on, how do you add rocky outcroppings to make it more of a rocky mountain? I'm thinking painting it brown and adding dirty and grass texture as recommended (we don't have dirt here... Just sand! So commercial product it is!) But I'd like some rocks on there.

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You have to slather on the Sculptimold and use a putty knife to cut in the rock formations.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

One way of making rock outcrops is to buy rock molds from Woodland Scenics and use hydrocal plaster to fill them to form the rocks. You can fill the molds to different depths to change the look of the rocks a bit. Also turning them to different orientations will make them look different when placed on the mountain. You can use drywall compound to smooth the rock edges into the mountainside. I’ve used this method on my own model railroad with good success. You can see my mountain build starting at post #93 in my layout construction thread at Modified Peace River HO Layout


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You might also want to look at a Woodland Scenics product called Shaper Sheet. It's a heavy foil with a napped cloth glued to one side. Bend it into the shape you want and install it, fuzzy side out. Cover it with plaster, Sculptamold, whatever. You can cut Shaper Sheet with scissors.

My son and I made a tunnel for his layout in less than an hour. I bent a section of the Shaper Sheet around my arm to create a tunnel liner (painted in grays and white highlights with a black roof. We built the mountain out of the same stuff, hot gluing the pieces together, and covering it with Sculptamold, carved with a palette knife to look like rock.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> You might also want to look at a Woodland Scenics product called Shaper Sheet. It's a heavy foil with a napped cloth glued to one side. Bend it into the shape you want and install it, fuzzy side out. Cover it with plaster, Sculptamold, whatever. You can cut Shaper Sheet with scissors.
> 
> My son and I made a tunnel for his layout in less than an hour. I bent a section of the Shaper Sheet around my arm to create a tunnel liner (painted in grays and white highlights with a black roof. We built the mountain out of the same stuff, hot gluing the pieces together, and covering it with Sculptamold, carved with a palette knife to look like rock.


Pics of finished product? 

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Thanks TF! Good advice all. I will be doing this as suggested. It seems it would be easier to get a mountain shape using the cloth rather than shaping the foam. I was watching some guys on YouTube use cotton batting instead of plaster cloth. Any merit to that idea? Send they both accomplish the same thing, so I'm not sure what the benefits would be, plaster would probably be stronger.
> 
> Once the plaster is on, how do you add rocky outcroppings to make it more of a rocky mountain? I'm thinking painting it brown and adding dirty and grass texture as recommended (we don't have dirt here... Just sand! So commercial product it is!) But I'd like some rocks on there.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vette-kid;

I urge you to reconsider using plaster rather than foam. Foam is not difficult to shape, just messy, and the shop vac takes care of the mess. Plaster gets heavy fast, particularly if you want those rocks. The normal method for adding rocks to a scene is to buy rubber rock molds , fill them with plaster of Paris, and stick them onto the other plaster, while they're still wet. The alternative for fastening these "rock castings" as they are called, is to glue them on.
One rock casting tends to cry out for more rock castings, and before you know it, you've created a pretty heavy chunk of plaster, called a mountain. The mountain needs to be lifted off your layout whenever you need to clean track, or retrieve derailed trains inside the tunnel.
Now I'm not trying to tell you that if you build a plaster tunnel, you won't be able to lift it, it won't be that heavy, although one of my previous plaster rock casting festooned, layouts came close!
Also you will need to twist your back a bit when you reach into that low cabinet that the layout is in. At that angle lifting something very light is a lot better for your spine than lifting something a little heavy.
Foam is much lighter, and more forgiving if you bump it against something, a likely scenario when the spot your tunnel will be in is bordered by partitions. You can also carve, or buy rock castings made of foam.
Plaster cloth will work, extruded foam will work. My choice would be the foam.
As for cotton batting, it's very useful for making trees. But I've never heard of it being used as mountain material. I've been a model railroader for multiple decades, and that's a new one on me. I can't even think how it could work at all.
Where do you live where there is" no dirt, only sand?" I'm guessing Nevada or Arizona, or possibly California? There is a potential big fat" fly in the ointment" if you live in California. Unlike the rest of the country, southern California Home Depot and Lowes stores don't stock extruded foam insulation board. It can be found, but you'll need to google yourself a dealer in your area.
Perhaps plaster cloth will win out after all. If you use it, keep it thin to keep the weight down. I've used tree bark as rocks (see photos) it's lightweight and cheap, and available in CA.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I'm in Florida. Everything is sand... And it gets EVERYWHERE! 

I here what your saying about the weight. If I understand correctly you just have the foam and paint it directly? I was planning foam with plaster cloth, but I may try a little your way and if I don't like it I can always covers it with plaster cloth I guess. I got a few of the cat rock formations and they are really light.

Here is the cotton technique I was talking about. It's also known as quilt batting or some variation of that.






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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Decided that having everything on top of the table want really trainee or desirable. A lot still will be on top (switch machines, for example), but wires can run underneath. 2x2 was used for spacing and to give something to bite into for stability. 1x2 was wedged under it to start with so as not to bind the track or wood. Then 2x2 went in. It's only about 1.5" but it seems plenty for wiring.

Was able to get foam boards today as well. Sadly they didn't have anymore of the 1.25", so I ended up with 3/4". I got two full sheets. Hope to start cutting foam this week.

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> I'm in Florida. Everything is sand... And it gets EVERYWHERE!
> 
> I here what your saying about the weight. If I understand correctly you just have the foam and paint it directly? I was planning foam with plaster cloth, but I may try a little your way and if I don't like it I can always covers it with plaster cloth I guess. I got a few of the cat rock formations and they are really light.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

Thanks for sending the video. That "quilt batting" is not what I expected when we were talking about "cotton batting." In fact, though my wife uses cotton batting to fill teddy bears, and I've used it for model trees, I'd never seen quilt batting. The cotton batting we have is one big lump, like a giant cotton ball,or cotton candy. It is not in a long thin rolled up sheet like the quilt batting in the video. The guy in the video had used foam for the support of his hill, and draped the quilt batting over it like some people do with plaster cloth. 
It can work either way. You can shape the foam to form a hill, and even carve rock faces directly into it. Or, you can lay plaster cloth, or this quilt batting stuff, over the foam.
While I think his idea is clever, I personally don't care for the very rough and lumpy rolls texture of his scenery, but that's just my opinion. I do fill gaps in my foam scenery with Elmer's wood filler, but plaster would work just as well. I have even used plaster cloth in some spots. So, it's your choice. I think you can get reasonably good results with plain foam, or foam draped in plaster cloth, or foam draped in quilt batting. As you said. you can try the bare foam first, and if your not happy with the results, you can still cover it. 

Yes, you can paint foam directly with latex (water-based) house paint. Don't use any solvent-based paint. It can attack the foam.
I paint every scenery surface, and even my wooden roadbed, and benchwork wood, with a dirt brown latex house paint first. I then sift my fine grain real dirt on, and then the commercial ground foam "grass." The dirt and ground foam are attached with thinned Elmer's glue.

I think your auto-correct is funny. I don't know what a "cat rock formation" is, unless it's an actual rock formation in the shape of a cat. 
I'm guessing it should have said "cast rock formations." Were they cast of plaster, or plastic, or foam? All three are sold commercially, and any of the three materials will work.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Yeah, I have problems with auto correct. Or more accurately, I have problems with not proof reading my own posts!! Yes, it was supposed to be "cast". 

So we had a go at cutting some of the foam board. Do you normally peel the plastic off? I glued a few before realizing that the plastic was would peel off. Hopefully it doesn't fall apart. Here is where we are at for now. The large area will turn into a small plateau with a small pond.

I'm a little tight to the wall as this wasn't in the original plan. So there will be a few open spots in the back corner for clearance concerns, but I don't think it will be a problem. Although I may have to use a vertical piece of foam on the back just to create the opening with. 

One area I haven't thought out yet is the tunnel entrances. How do you do the openings? I know there are commercial products, but I imagine matching colors and opening size to be problematic.


























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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Definitely remove the plastic film. It may be because of your location, but the boards we typically use come in even 1" thickness increments and don't have any plastic or foil on them.

Personally, I use commercial tunnel portals from either Woodland Scenics (unpainted plaster castings) or Chooch Enterprises (painted resin castings). With commercial castings, size / matching isn't a problem.

I will get some pictures of the tunnel on my son's layout to post....been a bad week.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It looks as though your tracks are too close in the curves for the length of those cars. If there were cars of the same length on the inside track I believe you would have a side-swipe problem.

If this problem isn't corrected (if in fact it exists) it will be compounded by having this curve in a tunnel.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Michael, it is close. If we run two passenger trains or passenger and auto racks there will be problems. You can run either passenger cars or auto racks on one and standard freight on the other as long as the cars are 60' and shorter. I think trying to correct it at this point is a can of worms. Move the inner track, tightens radius, causes issues with longer cars on that rail. So for now, I think we just use caution with it. 

But after saying all that, I am going to re look at it to make sure it's manageable or see if the correction is doable. Thanks for pointing it out.

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The curves on the far back corner of my layout are also too close. You can hear a car make contact with another when they are passing. I can make minor adjustments to lessen it, but I try to time the trains so they are not both on that curve passing each other at the same time. It's just a very slight scrape and not even enough to see movement of the car and have never even lost a grab iron on the end of the cars.

The contact is only at one small spot and not all the way around the curve, so that's something anyway. It's not really worth a major rework of track to fix it.

Other curves have around 1mm of clearance between full size passenger wagons. It's very close and to look at them passing you'd swear they were touching.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I tend to learn by doing... Sometimes the hard way. I'll tell you, if I do another layout in the future it will then out much better.

Two passenger or autoracks make contact in just a few places. One of bad enough I think it would detail. Three other it just skims. I did not use anything to radius my curves, so they are uneven. If I did it again I would use a nail and string to mark the curve and lay off of that. I eyeballed the first one and measured the parallel off of that, although I still got off from the measurement in a few places, that's where the contact happens.

Back to the mountain...
What do you guys normally cut the foam with? I'm finding the hobby saw is a terrible meds and not all that effective and that a utility knife is not nearly as easy as I would think. I'm mostly through it now, but it's WAY tougher to cut than I imagined.

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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

For long straight cuts I use a full size cross cut hand saw. For smaller cuts and carving, I use a drywall handsaw. For final shaping, I use a rasp. You want saws that have large teeth and a wide kerf.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> I tend to learn by doing... Sometimes the hard way. I'll tell you, if I do another layout in the future it will then out much better.
> 
> Two passenger or autoracks make contact in just a few places. One of bad enough I think it would detail. Three other it just skims. I did not use anything to radius my curves, so they are uneven. If I did it again I would use a nail and string to mark the curve and lay off of that. I eyeballed the first one and measured the parallel off of that, although I still got off from the measurement in a few places, that's where the contact happens.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

Extruded foam can be cut with several different tools. Professionals, in commercial shops probably use an industrial "hot wire cutter." This has a thin steel wire that is heated by passing electricity through it, sort of like the wires in a kitchen toaster, but not as hot. The wire passes through the foam easily and leaves a smooth cut, with no particles or dust. Hot wire cutters do produce nasty harmful fumes though, so forced ventilation/vacuum is required.
There are small, hobby-size hot wire cutters available, but their resilience is perhaps questionable. Several people have reported wires breaking, or other failures. One source is www.micromark.com 
I made my own "******* technology" hot wire cutter, and it works well. I don't know that I'd recommend doing this to the average person though. I have many years experience fixing electrical machines for a living, and that helps me do some weird stuff!

There are two types of cutters commonly available, and low priced. One is the electric "hot knife" sold by Harbor Freight Tools. www.harborfreight.com This looks a bit like a big hobby saw, crossed with a soldering iron. It heats up to make the blade melt, as much as cut, its way through the foam. Like the hot wire cutter the hot knife makes little, or no dust, but lots of nasty fumes. Use this only outdoors for safety.

The other cutting tool is an electric knife. This one does not get hot, but rather cuts with two sharp blades that slide back and forth next to each other,driven at high speed, by a motor in the handle. This item was widely advertised on TV some years ago.
The ad showed it being used to carve a turkey and other meat. The electric knife sort of disappeared after making its initial splash. I picked up one at a garage sale cheap.

Apart from these semi-odd cutters, there are the conventional saws, and knives, already mentioned.
One conventional saw I did not see mentioned, was an electric saber saw.
Depending on the blade fitted, this simple power tool can cut through just about anything. You'll need one with a variable speed feature, since it will need to be run at slow speed to cut foam. High speed will heat the foam and it can stick to the blade and gunk up the blade, the cut, and possibly the saw. A blade with corse teeth, slow running speed, and slow pushing speed will get the job done.

A knife not mentioned is a serrated, and very sharp, large kitchen knife. This type of knife, using a sawing motion, should cut through the foam, with both no dust, and no fumes. They're not that expensive if you avoid the fancy-dancy chef type. Check your local big box store. I don't recommend borrowing one from your kitchen. Wives tend to take a very dim view of such things! 

It sounds like you used flex track to make your curves, is that right? If so, you may be able to take up the outer curve and move it a bit further out to prevent cars from hitting each other. Whether this is practical or not, on your layout, is your choice.

Good Luck & Have Fun!

Traction Fan


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I think when I get back to it I'll just try the drywall saw. The utility knife works, it's just a bit of a pain depending on the cut.

The outer track is pretty close to the wall as is, but I may be able to gain a little there. Maybe just a little once inch piece at the start of the turn to push it out a bit. I might mess with that tomorrow. The problem is I don't think I can push the apex out any. So the end effect would be a flatter apex with slightly sharper corners. That may be doable as it was around a 21- 22" radius as it sits. So I would have two corners that are around 20" radius with a flatter, but not quite straight, apex.

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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I use a keyhole saw for rough cuts, and a rasp and / or sanding block for final smoothing.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

After adding a one inch extension on both ends of the curve I think I got us to where e can run passenger service on one and long freight on the other and still clear the portal I'm using. It's still not perfect, but short of pulling up the entire loop I don't think it ever will be. 

Making progress on the foam. 2" boards would make this go a TON faster. .75" at a time is slow going. 5 layers before I had enough to clear everything. A few observations. Drywall jab saw is MUCH faster but also MUCH messier! Utility blade works and is clean, but also slow and probably more dangerous. But with just those two you can make it work, and most of us have at least one of those in the house already. I had both.

I was surprised to find some of the layers still had wet glue. They weren't moving at all, but I had to make a few cuts and there was wet glue after more than a day. Florida humidity I guess.










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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Got started on final shaping today. I decided to use some plaster inside the tunnel. One, I wanted to see how it went (took almost 8yrds... Way more than I expected). Two, I wanted to give some extra support to the back supports, add they don't have a lot of contact patch glued to the main part. The thought is that the player would at least lend some stability there. It holds fine under it's own weight, but I'm afraid of it gets moved much they won't hold up.

I also decided to paint inside the tunnel. My son loves to stare into the tunnel while the trains are running, so I want to add to the illusion. I used rust-oleum accents stone texture. I gotta say, in my opinion this stuff looks awesome! Added benefit is it adds a little build up, so it easily another over the player cloth squares if you miss any. I think I'm going to use this stuff on the front door any rock surfaces and try the brown the front. 

















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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thinking ahead a little. I plan to do a stream on top going to a waterfall and pond below. The stream and waterfall can be clear with a few white caps, but what's the best way to convey depth in the pond? I want it to look deeper where the falls are and more shallow on the other side. I assume some darker color on that side, but I can find a good video or article explaining that aspect. Colored resin maybe? I have some liquid water type stuff from home depot that's clear and I have some epoxy resin and some color tints I can use. Or I'll have to order something.

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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You paint the bottom progressively darker colors, which provides the illusion of depth. An airbrush works best for fading the colors together, but it can be done with a bristle brush. The key is to gradually fade the lighter colors near the shore to the darker colors which convey depth. Look at some overhead imagery of a lake sir slow-moving river and you'll see what it should look like. Coloring the water product does not create the illusion of depth, but of water clarity.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> After adding a one inch extension on both ends of the curve I think I got us to where e can run passenger service on one and long freight on the other and still clear the portal I'm using. It's still not perfect, but short of pulling up the entire loop I don't think it ever will be.
> 
> Making progress on the foam. 2" boards would make this go a TON faster. .75" at a time is slow going. 5 layers before I had enough to clear everything. A few observations. Drywall jab saw is MUCH faster but also MUCH messier! Utility blade works and is clean, but also slow and probably more dangerous. But with just those two you can make it work, and most of us have at least one of those in the house already. I had both.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

Your tunnel/mountain is starting to take shape. Good work.
As for the still wet glue issue, are you using Elmer's Glue? It will work, but much of the area between layers of foam won't get much air, and that's what makes the glue set up, exposure to air. On a slab glue job like this, you can use Elmer's glue a bit like contact cement. Cover the full surface of both sheets with a thin layer of glue. A small, trim type, paint roller, or a wide putty knife helps with spreading the glue, but I just use my fingers, and then wipe them with a wet rag. Let the glue dry with the foam pieces still separated. You can either let it dry until it's tacky to the touch, or dry completely overnight. If you do the "tacky feel" method, line the foam pieces up carefully before joining them. The tacky glue will grab to the point where foam movement is very difficult, almost on contact. If you let the glue dry overnight, apply another thin layer of glue to one sheet, and wait about 3-5 minutes. Then join the pieces. The dried overnight glue helps make the joint faster and stronger. Alternative bonding materials are actual (non-solvent) contact cement, or double-sided tape. Both bond instantly, and permanently, which is why I didn't suggest them earlier. Either of these gives you only one shot at positioning layers.

Keep having fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks guys. The water is the part I have the most doubt on. But it's not the end of the world of it's not perfect.

I used mod podge for the glue. It seems to be fully cured now and feels pretty strong. I brushed it on when a foam brush and let it tack up a little, as you say. Some layers may not have gotten tacky enough. That's me trying to get one or two more layers on before I ran out of time.

I think I should have used larger slabs to start and shape then not with a knife. I tried cutting sheets to the desired end shape, but I may end up cutting away more material than I would like in order to get the contours right. It I'll have to add some pieces back in.

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The stone looks great. I might have to think of a use for this just to try it out somewhere.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Put the portals on today for a test fit... It's just too tight. I'm going to leave them off and just make a natural stone opening. May not be as realistic, but it will work. I'm not thrilled with my track work either. A few engine struggle on one corner at low speed as it's a little too tight, a consequence of improper spacing and poor radius turns. Funny thing is, my Bachmann E7 will glide through that corner at a barely perceptible crawl without any issues. The barely longer (0.25") Amtrak get stuck if you aren't going at a good clip??? Ah well. I will love with the imperfections until I can't.

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Put the portals on today for a test fit... It's just too tight. I'm going to leave them off and just make a natural stone opening. May not be as realistic, but it will work. I'm not thrilled with my track work either. A few engine struggle on one corner at low speed as it's a little too tight, a consequence of improper spacing and poor radius turns. Funny thing is, my Bachmann E7 will glide through that corner at a barely perceptible crawl without any issues. The barely longer (0.25") Amtrak get stuck if you aren't going at a good clip??? Ah well. I will love with the imperfections until I can't.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vette-kid;

Your Amtrak engine's trucks may not swivel as far as the Bachmann E-7's, or the trucks may be a bit further apart from each other on the Amtrak. Wheelbase counts more than overall body length, and some loco's trucks turn further than others. The Milwaukee Road's Bipolar electrics were big locomotives, but they rode on four separate trucks and thus had a short rigid wheelbase. This helped them negotiate that railroad's many tight curves. These "tight" (by prototype standards) were ten degree curves. The HO-scale equivalent would be a 48" radius curve!

Regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Getting close. Grass goes in next. I went for more of a tan color. Actually, there is grey white and tan in there for variation. I ran out of grey and switched to tan, so call it a happy little accident (Bob Ross anyone?). It's not perfect, a few of the layers can still be seen between the foam. I think I can hide those with some foliage. 

















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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Very nice! Well done!


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Do you guys use a spray sealer, like mod podge spray (clear mat) on grasses?

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Grass added,I think it's shaping up nicely. Next will be trees/shrubs and water features. Oddly enough, as we were putting the rocks down around the pond my son pointed out that it looks like an alien head... So welcome to Alien Lake! Now I'm on the look out for a flying saucer and maybe some little green men!









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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

In its final place and trees and animals added. my son couldn't resist putting a few people in there. And of course for fun we have dragons and unicorns!






























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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

I love it!


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

First attempt at the waterfall is a fail. I used the water product from hobby lobby. The idea was to use crumpled up foil that would give the water some texture. And I could then dry brush some white. That concept seems sounds, but the product dried a little brittle and stuck too much to the foil. I'll try again with some modifications. Clear silicone might be better for the falls. I was thinking a thin layer of the blue behind the clear would give a nice effect, but not sure it's doable.























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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> First attempt at the waterfall is a fail. I used the water product from hobby lobby. The idea was to use crumpled up foil that would give the water some texture. And I could then dry brush some white. That concept seems sounds, but the product dried a little brittle and stuck too much to the foil. I'll try again with some modifications. Clear silicone might be better for the falls. I was thinking a thin layer of the blue behind the clear would give a nice effect, but not sure it's doable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

One waterfall technique I've tried is to stick a small, thinly-stretched bit from a cotton ball to a piece of clear box sealing tape. I then paint the back, non-sticky side of the tape with a mix of green and blue clear stains. I use Tamiya brand model paints which have clear colors available. Glass stains, or even food coloring, might work too.
The cotton fibers look like the white water of the fall and the back color represents the main body of the water.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Interesting idea! I'm going to try this again and spray some mold release agent in the foil first. Wax paper may be a better surface, but it won't give the texture. 

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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Different resin products produce different results. I don't know about the specific Hobby Lobby product you used, but Enviro-Tex dries up rock hard, while Magic Water does not and retains a bit of resiliency. When I pour the river on my layout, I will be using Magic Water.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Here is take two. Actually not bad on the silicon. I used a craft stick to pull it up for the texture. It dried more white than I expected (it says clear), but I have decided if that's a good or bad thing. The blue/green did better with release agent, but thin areas are still brittle. It might work behind the silicon for depth. Oddly, the clear jumped it's dam and puddled under the craft stick I had laying out. Luckily I turned to foil up on the edges just in case or i would have had a mess on the counter top!

I think I'll try the magic water product, but I'm keeping this for now. One concern is matching the rest of the water. I think after pouring the pond I can use a bit if silicon to make done water splashes around where the fall hits the water (very light). But blending the stream to the silicon fall looks more challenging. Maybe more if the same technique to mimic roiling water?

My dad got me a subscription to model railroad academy, so I'm going to poke around there for tools as well. Anyone used that site? Dad had some O Guage as a kid and I think always wanted to do a layout again, so he send to be living vicariously through me... If course, I'm living vicariously through my own son! 



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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Nice work.


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