# The new kid on the block



## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

OK, I am not quite sure what I am doing here. I have been a closet model railroad fan for a long time. I bought a HO set for $20 when I was a kid. I don't know what happened to that set. I think we decided that there just wasn't enough room for a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood with fake grass tacked to it in our house. Either before that or after that I bought a few N scale box cars and a building or two but did not get any further than that. You are really limited to what you can buy when your allowance is $2 a week. In recent years whenever there was a train layout on exhibition I would go and have a look. I always told myself that I loved looking at them but I'm not the type to get involved. I am afraid that is changing. 

Lately I have notice that the frequency and duration of my periods of watching model train videos on youtube is growing. I live in a very small (no....really, it's smaller than what you are thinking..) so HO is totally out of the question. There is a divider that separates my kitchen from my living area. It's about 4 feet high and at the top is a ledge or shelf if you will. It measures 9" wide. I am thinking of getting a board which will measure 16 - 18" and be around 6'. I love the thought of putting N scale trains on that board but I would only be able to run one loop and I have read that many trains cannot handle the tight turns. I guess with a width of only 18" Z scale is my only real option.

A penny for your thoughts?

Enjoy a short video I shot of the PA Trolley Museum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Alzxn_m6s4


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Subway Fugitive said:


> I guess with a width of only 18" Z scale is my only real option.


Z could work nicely, though you need nimble hands and excellent eyesight for that. Tiny stuff.

And then there's TT ... even smaller!

Welcome to the forum! Nice job on the Trolley video ... looks like a blast from the past!

TJ


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

Subway Fugitive said:


> A penny for your thoughts?


Frankly, Z scale is probably the best choice for that available area, although I am biased!

The minimum diameter you require is at least 18", so you will need to bear that in mind when you consider the need to protect things falling off the edge, so an extra inch or two would be advisable! If you're going to access this from both the longer sides, you'll need to extend both.

I decided on Z scale because I had little room for anything else, but I didn't realise how difficult it can be to work with, especially with my eyesight (which I _thought_ was OK!) and my large fingers (which weren't!).

I originally started building my layout in the garage, but that was a bad idea because it isn't insulated and got quite cold in the winter. I've since moved everything in to the spare bedroom since once of the children moved out :thumbsup:, but I'm still limited to 18" behind the bedroom door. I have to say that if the rest of the children move out (they're all in their 20's!) I'd be very tempted to change to HO, but would stick with Maerklin.

The choice is, as always, up to you - but do take the time to look around at all the model railway forums around the world, especially those with sections on Z Scale modelling, including http://www.zscale.org/

Good luck and keep us up to date with your progress!

Pete


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

*RE*

I could always build a bigger layout and keep it under my bed thus allowing me to use N scale trains. I have seen some really great 3x5 layouts on youtube. If I build it on the ledge which separates my kitchen then it will always be out in plain view. 

I guess my next step is to go to a hobby shop that has z scale trains and decide for myself if they are really too small. It's hard to tell that just by watching videos and looking at photos. 

For all of you who take the time to answer questions from rookies such as myself allow me to thank you.


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

No worries, we were all rookies at some stage!

Pete


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

*RE:*



Nightowl4933 said:


> The minimum diameter you require is at least 18", so you will need to bear that in mind when you consider the need to protect things falling off the edge, so an extra inch or two would be advisable! If you're going to access this from both the longer sides, you'll need to extend both.
> 
> 
> Pete


The minimum diameter needed in Z scale is 18"? I thought it was 11".


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

You're quite right, of course! What I meant was the minimum radius you'd need for twin tracks would be 18". There is a smaller radius (11" as you said) but this would limit what you could do within the oval.

In truth, the smallest circuit layout you could have is a single track of 300mm diameter!

Pete


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

*RE:*

OK, so for twin tracks I need a minimum of 18" and that would bring the tracks to the edge of the board. In case of a derailment it would mean a 4' drop to the floor. A bit much for a loco costing $125. So I guess I am limited to a single loop. Since it will be 5-6' long I can throw in a figure 8 to keep things interesting.


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

I agree, just to be on the safe side.

If you had the space, you could put a table, desk or chest of drawers in front of the wall so the drop is reduced, but they are fragile items - and expensive. You could also place a sheet of perspex 2 or 3 inches high to prevent it all together, but still be able to see it. It could be removable for accessing that area.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dumb question. Why would you need that much clearance between dual tracks? That sounds like the kind of allowance I make for O-Scale! 3.5" spacing seems like overkill for Z-scale.


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Dumb question. Why would you need that much clearance between dual tracks? That sounds like the kind of allowance I make for O-Scale! 3.5" spacing seems like overkill for Z-scale.


Actually, I think it's a pretty good question.


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

Hi John,

The radius for the outer track is 8 and 11/16", or 220mm, to the centreline of the track, so the outer edge is (about, without measuring it) 4mm more. I would recommend a further inch or two to protect anything from falling off the baseboard. If Subway Fugitive will be accessing his layout from both sides about 20" wide, overall.

But that's just my opinion!

Pete


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

The width of ledge or shelf is 9 inches. I am afraid that a board that is 20 inches wide will not look good. I was hoping to get by with a 16" or 18" board. It appears that my options are to use a single loop or scrap the idea of building on the ledge. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

Here are some photos of the ledge I am dealing with. It is 9' long and 9" wide.


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

Looking at your pictures, could you go for an 'L' shaped layout, extending the lower part towards the wooden bookcase in the lower picture?

If this was wall-mounted shelf 18" deep, you could use that end for the loop and the longer part for the 'interest'?

Just a thought...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nightowl4933 said:


> Hi John,
> 
> The radius for the outer track is 8 and 11/16", or 220mm, to the centreline of the track, so the outer edge is (about, without measuring it) 4mm more. I would recommend a further inch or two to protect anything from falling off the baseboard. If Subway Fugitive will be accessing his layout from both sides about 20" wide, overall.
> 
> ...


The question here is, if the inner track has a diameter of the curve of 11", or a radius of 5.5", why is the requirement that the outer track have that much clearance from the inner track? I don't have any experience with Z-scale, but for other scales, I don't see spacing anything like what you're describing.

I'm not suggesting that the tight spacing would accommodate all locomotives or rolling stock, but I'll bet with a inner diameter of 11" and an outer diameter of 15-16", you'd be hard pressed to find any Z-scale stuff that would have interference between the tracks. With the tight radius, you'd likely be limited to smaller models, further insuring that track-to-track interference would be a non-issue.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Subway Fugitive said:


> Here are some photos of the ledge I am dealing with. It is 9' long and 9" wide.


I suggest you limit live posting picture sizes to around 800 pixels wide, your pictures require side-to-side scrolling on even my 27" screen!


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey fugitive, 

Do you plan on doing any cooking on that stove? 

*If* you do, *don't* put a train layout on your shelf, just steam from boiling water won't be good for the engines or the layout, let alone *frying*. 

Greg


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

choo choo said:


> Hey fugitive,
> 
> Do you plan on doing any cooking on that stove?
> 
> ...


I concur Greg. The ledge runs 9'. I was planning on using 5-6' of it avoiding the stove area. I'd be more concerned with creating a fire hazard than losing an engine. 

Finding stores that stock Z scale is not easy but I found one in Suburban VA (I'm in DC) and I think I will take a ride out there today and have a look up close at the Z and N scales.


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The question here is, if the inner track has a diameter of the curve of 11", or a radius of 5.5", why is the requirement that the outer track have that much clearance from the inner track? I don't have any experience with Z-scale, but for other scales, I don't see spacing anything like what you're describing.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the tight spacing would accommodate all locomotives or rolling stock, but I'll bet with a inner diameter of 11" and an outer diameter of 15-16", you'd be hard pressed to find any Z-scale stuff that would have interference between the tracks. With the tight radius, you'd likely be limited to smaller models, further insuring that track-to-track interference would be a non-issue.


This is what I was hoping to hear! Thanks so much everyone. Sorry about the huge photos. I posted them yesterday realizing that they were way too big but had to run. If I do go ahead with this I wonder where I am going to put all those cameras....


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The question here is, if the inner track has a diameter of the curve of 11", or a radius of 5.5", why is the requirement that the outer track have that much clearance from the inner track? I don't have any experience with Z-scale, but for other scales, I don't see spacing anything like what you're describing.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the tight spacing would accommodate all locomotives or rolling stock, but I'll bet with a inner diameter of 11" and an outer diameter of 15-16", you'd be hard pressed to find any Z-scale stuff that would have interference between the tracks. With the tight radius, you'd likely be limited to smaller models, further insuring that track-to-track interference would be a non-issue.


Hi John,

There are three radii for Maerklin Z scale - 145mm, 195mm and 220mm. The latter two provide the 25mm gap between the centre line of both tracks when parallel tracks are required, making the outer diameter of the curve 440mm at the centre line of the track - or 450mm overall taking account of the track ties. The additional inch would help provide a 'safety' margin, although there should also be something else to stop anything falling off, i.e. a wall or perspex sheet.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I agree that you want to prevent trains from falling off the layout, no argument there. 

Isn't there the concept of flex-track with Z-scale?


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

There is, and I suppose it could be used for curved sections between the 145mm and 195 mm diameter radii (or larger than the 220mm) but I've not really used them.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see why you couldn't use 145mm and 195mm for the two tracks, you have several inches center-to-center, surely more than sufficient for something that's only about 3" long!


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

You could, absolutely, but even using the 195mm track as the outer line, this would still require a minimum of 400mm (or just under 16") not including the 'safety net'.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, he's talking about an 18" shelf, so that just fits.  For Z, a little plexiglass lip of about 1" should be sufficient to catch falling trains.


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## Nightowl4933 (May 11, 2011)

Hooray, sorted!


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

Once again thanks to everyone for their contributions. I took a ride out to Trains Etc. (http://www.trainsetc.com/) today and had the chance to look at N and Z scales up close. For me the N has more eye appeal as it is bigger. I am not one to tinker but I can't imagine replacing a wheel that fell off on a Z scale or other minor repairs. Not only is N substantially less expensive but because of it's popularity there's quite a bit of used stuff out there. I picked up a box car and dummy loco for a combined $13. 

I placed a board that I had around the apartment to see what a 7.5 inch overhang would look like that while not optimal it's not a eyesore either. Based on what I have seen in youtube videos 24" is enough to squeeze 2 loops in it seems.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you're going the right way with N, I've also noticed that Z is really expensive. (


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

If I go N I will want to keep the layout's width to 18". Too much overhang just doesn't look good and there's always the risk of it topsizing. I know everyone moans about Kato's 8.5 radius curved track but if I use that then I can have a half inch (not much I know...) on either side of the track. I have read that the trolleys will run well on the 8.5 turns. What else will? I don't care too much about it looking real. My other options are to go Z, build a 3' x 5' layout that I can store under my bed (which is calling me right now...), or not do anything.
Thanks again


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you put a small "fence" at the edge to catch falling trains, I guess that should work.


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## Subway Fugitive (Jul 16, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDXcvqrSlBs
Above is the link to a video that shows how someone ran a trolley with a radius of 2 3/4 inches. Maybe trolleys are my answer. I should get two loops on a 16 or 18 inch board. I would like to make it more like an interurban where it will run out in the country a bit and through the heard of a small town. I will start researching what it will take to run 2 trolleys at the same time. Thanks a million times!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know much about N (or Z for that matter), it would seem you could get two loops in 18 inches, but maybe they don't turn that sharp.


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