# An Addict Scores: 1681 Mainlining



## tjcruiser

You've heard me confess this before ... "I have a problem. An addiction, really ... to Lionel prewar 1681 locos."

Well, the euphoric (and yet self-destructive) altered state of bliss continues ...

While ebay-cruising, I stumbled across the following "parts lot". A little wheeling, dealing, and back-alley bidding, and wham ... an addict scores, with a quick fix soon to be on its way in the mail ...



















From what I can tell, it's 2 complete locos, plus 1 loco with motor but no wheels, 1 other loco shell (only), and an extra boiler front ... which will fit perfectly with one of the other loco shells that I've had sitting on my bench. From what I can see in the ebay pics, the paint on the middle red loco shell appears to be in very nice shape.

I'm so giddy ... it's a prewar tinplate euphoric high!

QUESTIONS ...

There are some other "parts" stuff that come with the package. I haven't had a close look, but I'm wondering what do I have with the little 4-wheeled car (loco shell) that's on the left with the blue front/back bumpers? Can someone identify that for me?

And what about the light grey colored item just above that car (an below the tender) that looks like it's sort of folded out on itself ... what is that ???

More fix-it projects ... I'm stoked!

TJ


----------



## Dave Sams

Score!


You have part of one of these












#50 handcar


----------



## tjcruiser

Hey, Dave,

THANKS! Cool. I'm wondering if one of those field coils that shown separately on the right in my first photo might go to the handcar. It looks like it just has the armature sticking up. Maybe I'll be lucky, and it'll be a matched field coil.

I appreciate the help!

TJ


----------



## novice

Very nice score - congrats


----------



## Dave Sams

tjcruiser said:


> Hey, Dave,
> 
> THANKS! Cool. I'm wondering if one of those field coils that shown separately on the right in my first photo might go to the handcar. It looks like it just has the armature sticking up. Maybe I'll be lucky, and it'll be a matched field coil.
> 
> I appreciate the help!
> 
> TJ


The armature is held in by the orange part. You will also need the springs and brushes and whatever else is missing from the switching mechanism. 

FYI, I was at a show 2 weeks ago where you could buy "ok" handcars for $35.


----------



## tjcruiser

Dave,

Thanks.

Hey, just to clarify ... we've been saying "hand car" ... that's a "gang car", right?

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, that's the #50 gang car.


----------



## Big Ed

Do you have more pictures of the gray thin?

what is the gold colored post?


----------



## tjcruiser

Ed,

I haven't receive the stuff yet ... likely won't get it until next week.

I'll snap some more pics of the grey "bent over" thing, then. I'm clueless as to what that might be. Anyone ???

The gold post looks like the base of a #56 lamp post to me. Doyle's book shows that sharing the same hex-post base. What do you think?

TJ


----------



## T-Man

What were you thinking???????? More???????


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> I'll snap some more pics of the grey "bent over" thing, then. I'm clueless as to what that might be. Anyone ???


No need for more pictures. That's the guts of the Lionel 3454 Merchandise car, I'm working on one on my bench as we speak.  It's a pretty scarce car, so I suspect you might be able to sell the innards to someone trying to fix one.


----------



## tjcruiser

John,

THANK YOU! I had no idea what that gizmo was. In fact, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "merchandise car". I just had a 'net look at a few ... pretty neat, with the automated package unloading.

I haven't received the ebay lot, but are you interested in the gizmo innards?

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I can always use spare parts. Mine happens to work right now, but you never know.  Maybe this one would be smoother, mine occasionally has trouble opening the door.


----------



## tjcruiser

My odd-lot addict ebay score arrived a day ago. Lionel 1681 prewar loco bits galore, plus other odds-n-ends.

The treasure of the lot is one of the red 1681 loco shells. All original, in excellent condition ... just a few tiny, tiny paint chips. As far as I can tell, it was never run ... there's no evidence of a front truck ever scraping the underside of the steam chest. I'm guessing it was an inventoried spare, never used. Nice find for me ... one less that I'll have to strip and repaint.

I'm excited that one of the motors has an intact manual reverse switch, rather than an e-unit. One of my restored 1681's has one of those, and I had fun rewiring it. Works nicely, too ... no hum, of course!

One odd find that has me perplexed ...

These 1681 locos originally had 8-spoked drive wheels ... one side with gears, the other without. One of the motors in the lot has had a wheel replaced ... but instead of having gear teeth on the back, it simply has two small studs that protrude from the back face. Each stud is approx 1/8" diameter x 1/8" tall ... about 11/16" apart from each other. Clearly, this would be non-functional in the motor as found (no gear!). But why would a wheel ever have been made with two studs on the back like that? Spacers of some sort? Anyone know ???

(I'll post pics of the wheel when I can.)

The 56 lamp post is in nice shape, except that it's missing it's top. Anyone know where I could find replacement / repro tops (glass, finial, etc.)? I haven't checked with Jeff Kane on this, yet.

There's a whistle inside the black tender! I haven't peeked inside yet. The tender trucks and pickup rollers are shot/gone ... but hey ... a whistle!

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man

The studs probably held a gear in place, when it was on the right engine.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Drive wheel with 2 studs on the back ...*

T-Man, etc.

Up above, I posed a question about one of the odd drive wheels I found with my misc lot of old Lionel stuff ... a wheel with 2 cylindrical studs (but no gear) on its back face.

T-man suggest that the studs may have engaged a separate gear. Good thinking.

However, by dumb luck, I was poking around ebay, and came across a few different listing of Lionel 1506L's, which were tiny prewar windup locos ... smaller than the 1681's, but with the similar-looking 8-spoked wheels.

Well, when I started to look at some the of ebay pics of the 1506L, I noticed that one of the drive wheels is driven by the windup motor via some sort of open-faced disc ... perhaps this disc engage two studs on the back of the drive wheel?

I'm posting several pics of 1506L's for reference. These are NOT my locos, but rather misc pics from ebay.

For anyone interested, take a look at the "disc" on the front left wheel ... used to transfer power from the spring motor to the drive wheel ...

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Neat, that's a first.


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
It looks like you have the first wheel for a collection of windup engines.  A new addiction and one that plays well with your present addiction for prewar locos.

BB


----------



## tjcruiser

Guys,

I was finally able to snap some pics of the "wheel with studs on the back" that was part of my odd lot find. (One wheel ... front and back pics merged below.)

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Sure looks like those studs are to grab the backing plate that you showed for that windup.


----------



## tjcruiser

In looking at the detailed pics of the 1506L, I'm wondering if the reason for the studs and "backing plate" on the drive wheel mechanism was to provide for a ratchet mechanism ... 

Perhaps the loco could be wind either via the key, or via pushing the loco down gently to the floor, then rolling it backwards?

Anyone have a 1930's Lionel windup?

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*How to replace missing gear ???*

OK ... all of you hard-core old Lionel bashers ... I've got a head-scratcher question for you ...

In my crazy lot of Lionel 1681 loco bits, two of the loco motors are each missing the intermediate gear that sits between the small gear on the armature axle and the gears on the drive wheels.

You can see where the gear is missing in the photo below.

The gear mounts (somehow) to a "T-stud", with the flange of the T positioned on the outer face, to hold the gear in place.

One one motor, the T-stud is still in place, undamaged, but the gear itself is gone.

On the other motor, the T-stud and the gear are both gone.

So ...

1. How do I replace a gear on an existing (intact) T stud?

2. How do I replace a T stud itself (with a new gear, of course)?

I'm stumped on this one, guys. HELP!!!

TJ


This is the loco with the T-stud but no gear ...


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
Is this gear arrangement identical to your other engines? I suggest if you can't find the gear from a Lionel supplier, look on Stockdrive's web site. Stockdrive has every kind of gear you can imagine. As far as the T stud is concerned, get the gear up to high velocity and aim it toward the stud so it will slip over the end of the stud. Seriously, is the stud worn? Most of the gears I have seen are held on by the wheels and not by a T end on the stud.
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

How would you ever find the specific gear at Stockdrive?


----------



## servoguy

Gears are specified by their diametrical pitch. This is the number of teeth on a gear 1 inch in diameter. You should be able to find pictures of gears on Stockdrive's web site. Here is Stock Drive's web site: https://sdp-si.com/eStore/Direct.asp?GroupID=590

The diameter of a gear is measured at the pitch diameter. This is about half way between the outside diameter and the diameter at the root of the teeth. So if you can pull a wheel and measure the pitch diameter of the gear on the wheel and then count the teeth you can calculate the diametrical pitch. Diametrical pitch = (1/pitch diameter) * no. of teeth. It should come out to an integer. 
With the diametrical pitch go to the gear table at the Stock Drive web site and pick a gear that will fit.
If you have trouble, post the numbers and I can help you.
BB


----------



## tjcruiser

Guys,

(Bruce, thanks for gear thoughts, but ... some good news / bad news ...)

I talked to Jeff Kane at the Train Tender today. He has the gear available ... no problem there. It's figuring out what to do with the stud that will be tricky. He suggested ...

1. For the motor that has a stud with a T (or shoulder, as Jeff calls it) ... the stud itself is attached quite rigidly to the motor cheek plate. Jeff suggested grinding down the T-flange with a Dremel, then slipping a new gear on the now-exposed stud shaft. When the drive wheels are installed, the gear will be sort-of held in place.

2. For the motor with no stud, things are much more difficult. The way these studs were originally installed is that they had their somewhat-hollow inside end inserted to a hole in the motor cheek, and then the inside edge of the stud was peened on the inside of the motor cheek to lock it in place. There's no real way to reproduce doing this with a new stud, without having to do drastic surgery to completely disassemble the motor cheeks, and I really don't want to do that.

Jeff did say that at one point someone was making repro replacement T-studs with the very end (inner portion) of the stud threaded. One could tap the original hole in the motor cheek, then screw in the replacement stud (and gear) until it tightened up at the thread extent. Seems like a perfect way to go ... except Jeff isn't aware of where to find these anymore.

Does anyone know of something like that?

I guess I could simply use a machine screw in place of the stud, as long as the thread O.D. was about close to the original stud O.D. However, in this method, the gear would be spinning on the screw threads, rather than a smooth shaft. Not ideal.

Then, thinking that through, I guess one could try to fit a tiny sleeve of some sort between the machine screw and the hole in the gear to cut down on friction. Hmmm ...

Tricky stuff.

It's too bad that on one of the motors, the existing stud is perfectly fine. Rock solid. There's just no way to get a gear on, without having to cut away the stud T shoulder.

Anyone have any other ideas? I'd love to hear any thoughts.

Separately ...

I happened to mention to Jeff the "mystery" of the wheel with the pair of little integral studs on the back, as shown in Post #19, above. He had a different suggestion as to their function ...

He thinks the studs may have been used to engage a lever that rang a little bell in the loco. I do know that the 1506L loco had a bell, and there is a pivoting lever on the side of the wheels shown in the photos above. Boy, I'd sure love to get my hands on one of these to see how it worked.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
What is the diameter of the hole in the motor side plate where the stud goes, and what is the diameter of the stud? It is likely you could use a machine screw with the head removed to make a stud. You can measure the hole easily if you have a set of number drills.

One should always have a good friend that is a machinist. It makes these sort of things much more simple.

Is it possible you could drill and tap the end of the stud for a #2 or #4 screw to retain the gear? Kinda trick to get the hole centered. 
BB


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
Can you take some more pictures of the stud?
BB


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

In your first suggestion, why to you say "a machine screw with the head removed to make a stud" ??? It seems to me I would want the head of a screw left on, such that it would serve to keep the gear in place ???

For the motor that's missing a stud, I think I might be able to tap the sideplate of the motor, and then use a screw as a stud. I don't have the motor here with me over the weekend, but I suspect the tricky part there will be that the thickness of the motor sideplate is rather thin ... not much "meat" to tap and yield any significant number of threads. Also, I'd prefer to have the bore of the gear spin on a smooth-shank shaft, rather than a threaded shaft (stud). So, my options there are to either sleeve-over the stud/screw, or to find or maching a screw with a smooth shank portion (near the head) and a threaded portion. That will be tricky to find in this small screw diameter size.

(I do not have a precisce measurement for the stud diameter or the existing hole in the motor sideplate. The motor is at my office shop ... I can take some dimensions on Monday.)

The links below show the same Lionel Jr motor from a few other projects ... one is a 1688, and the other is a 1681. They both share the same motor design, gear and stud type.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6004

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=37391&postcount=72

Per your suggestionk, for the motor that DOES have the existing stud (rock solid), I could grind off the T-flange of the stud, slip a new gear on, and then try to drill and tap the exposed end of the stud for a small retaining screw (and washer, perhaps) to hold the gear in place. Tiny dimensions to work with, though ... I'm usually pretty good with small parts, but drilling and tapping that tiny stud without imposing damage would be tricky.

Thanks for the dialog here ... I really appreciate the brainstorming. The remaining components of these two motors are all servicable, and I have corresponding loco shells (plenty of them, actually!), so I'd love to get these motors / locos running again, if I can find a not-so-masochistic way to fix the gear issue on each.

Thanks very much,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

There are many studs with screw threads at the bottom that are smaller than the stud. If you can find one the right size, that would do it. How big is the hole in the gear? How big is the hole in the motor cheek?


----------



## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> There are many studs with screw threads at the bottom that are smaller than the stud. If you can find one the right size, that would do it. How big is the hole in the gear? How big is the hole in the motor cheek?


You're giving me hope ... a good thing.

I'll need to measure the hole and the thickness of the motor sideplate on Monday ... all my "stuff" is at the office shop.

Thanks ... much appreciated!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I have some of those studs, so if you're REALLY lucky, I might have one that would work. I'm thinking you'd thread the hole and then attach the stud with the gear. Of course, you also have to specify how long the part that the gear rides on is as well.

If the gear hole is larger than the hole by a sufficient amount, you can use a bushing with a screw through it and a washer on top to "make" such a stud as well. Again, thread the hole and screw it in.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks! And I can always enlarge the hole in the gear, if needed to fit a special stud, too.

Accurate dims to come on Monday, guys ... I promise!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Remember, if you enlarge the hole, you have to do it accurately, wouldn't do to have the gear mesh changing as it rotates!


----------



## servoguy

TJ, From the looks of the pictues, the gear will stay in place very nicely, being held in place by the wheels. A lot of the locos both steam and diesel have gears held in place by the wheels. That would make life a lot easier. It also appears that you could drill out the gear to accommodate a larger diameter stud. This might make it easier to find a stud. You really want a stud with a shoulder which would contact the motor side plate so that the stud was perpendicular to the motor side plate. Just screwing a machine screw or stud into the motor side plate probably will not result in a stud that is perpendicular to the side plate.
BB


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

I agree with the idea and potential of using a larger diam / shoulder stud, with a redrill on the gear hole if needed. All makes good sense.

I'm not sold on the idea of the wheels (only) holding the gear captive on this loco. The wheels on the 1681 are not huge, and there's only a small overlap between the drive wheels and the outer "corners" of the gear itself. Not really enough to push the gear down evenly on the stud, I'd suspect. However, the old "nothing ventured / nothing gained" addage comes to mind, so I'll give your idea a trial run when I can.

Another idea would be to fabricate a small, zig-zag-shaped retaining bracket that I could screw on to the side of the motor frame. The "arm" of the bracket could reach over the gear and push down in its center near the stud end to hold the gear captive from its middle.

Lots of possible options, I guess .... 

Dimensions to come on Monday, guys.

TJ


----------



## T-Man

It's warm enough to paint!


----------



## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

Well ... Mother Nature is still fooling with us here in RI, T ... 50 deg this morning, but dropping by lunchtime back into the low 30's. She hasn't released her cold grip on Winter just yet!

Back to gears ... as promised, here's a drawing of how the intermediate gear on the Lionel Jr. locos attaches to the motor frame. You're looking at a cross-section through the middle of the gear and the mount stud. All dimensions are in inches, and are approximate.

From what I can see/tell, the original mount stud has a hollow end slightly inset with a shoulder. The hollow end is inserted into a 1/8" diamter hole in the motor frame, and then peened over a bit to lock the stud in place. Easy to do during original motor construction, perhaps, but I'm duanted as to how one would do this on a motor restoration, without having to resort to fully disassembling the motor and pulling the motor sideplates apart.

It may be possible to tap the 1/8" hole in the motor sideplate, and use a a threaded stud (or a shoulder stud with a threaded tip). There's not much "meat" in the motor sideplate, though ... only 0.038" thick.

Mixed thoughts ... and talking out loud here ...

I'd really like to restore the motor I have that has a rock-solid stud but no gear. As stated above, I'll have to cut away the stud retaining flange, and then maybe tap the remaining stud end for a small retaining screw. Doable, perhaps.

However, as I looked more closely at the motor that has NO stud and gear, I realized that one set of pressed-in bronze wheel bearings are shot ... completely elongated holes ... much too sloppy to hold a wheel axle in place. So, on this motor: no stud, no gear, bad wheel bearings. It could be time to officially commision this motor into the "parts only" scrap heap.

What do you guys think? Ideas welcomed ...

TJ


Lionel Jr motor intermediate gear mount. All dims approx. All dims in inches.










Lionel Jr motor showing intermediate gear and stud (wheels removed)









Lionel Jr motor showing full gear / wheel arrangement


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I think the one with no stud is a goner. 

The idea of tapping that for a #2 screw is probably very doable. One thing to be cautious about. When you're cutting away the top of that stud, make sure you don't stress the pressed fit too much or you'll have two motors with no studs! 

I think I'd probably try grinding the top down with a Dremel tool. Is the stud brass or steel? Brass should be easy to drill and tap.


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
Check this out for a source for studs:  http://www.mcmaster.com/#shoulder-screws/=bbxt9u

McMaster has quite a variety of sizes.

Could you possible sneak a nut on the end of the stud without taking the motor apart?

I am reminded of something that my mechanic was doing a few years. I walked into his shop and he was gluing a 10 mm nut on the end of his finger. Turns out that the bozos at BMW had put a nut into an inaccessible place on the mounting bracket for the power steering pump. He was trying to avoid removing the bracket which was about a 2.5 hour job. It worked for him. First try.

If you can fix the motor without the stud, it might be easiest to remove the stud from the other motor and replace it.

BB


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
McMaster might also have the bushings you need. Can't cost much


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

Great info! I've used McMaster in the past for lots of other non-train projects, and they are certainly a huge source of goodies.

In having a quick looki at your McM shoulder screw link, they have something that might work:

Original McMaster Stud

Smooth shank diam: 0.150" 5/32" = 0.156"

Smooth shank length: 0.160" 3/16" = 0.188"

Screw or Peen-End Diam: 0.125" 6-32 thread = 0.138"

The McM shank is a bit long, but I could certainly add a thin fiber washer between the gear and the shoulder screw head. The McM threaded screw end is a bit large in diam, but that would be perfect if I were to tap the existing 0.125" (1/8") hole in the motor sideplate.

Per your thoughts, on the motor with the rock-solid stud, I would try to Dremel grind away that stud head and reuse the remaining stud as the gear pivot. From there, it's possible to tap the end for a tiny retaining screw.

On the other motor with no stud, the McM shoulder screw is a good option, except ...

The rear wheel bearing on that motor are toast.

So ...

Has anyone changed wheel bearings on a motor like this? They appear to be little bronze cylinders with shoulders that are press-fit in place from the inside of the motor cheeks. On one of my Jr motors a while back, one of the bearings was loose and it popped out. I carefully pushed it back in to the motor sideplate, and added a drop of CA glue around its outer seam. Seems to be holding. The point here is this: with that as just one example, perhaps the bearing "press fit" isn't so tight and tough that it would preclude someone from changing the bearings ???

Thanks!!!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Unless they've been peened over, I'm sure you can press them out. The only ones like that I've seen were on a diesel truck, and they looked like they'd press right out.


----------



## servoguy

CJ,
This all reminds me of a story from back in the days of the first LED watches. I was working at Martin Marietta in Orlando at the time. One of the engineers had a watch with a segment that didn't light up. So he and 3 friends elected to go to the microelectronics lab to see if the watch could be fixed. Sure enough, the guys in the microelectronics lab were helpful and after an hour or so, the watch was fixed. Now let's see how much that cost: 5 or 6 guys for an hour plus is $150-200 unburdened and more like $500 burdened. The watch was worth about $15. But, what the hay, it was a fun project. 

I do the same thing as you, spending an inordinate amount of time to fix something just for the pleasure of watching it work again.
BB


----------



## tjcruiser

I just hope you guys don't send me your bill!


----------



## tjcruiser

servoguy said:


> TJ,
> Check this out for a source for studs: http://www.mcmaster.com/#shoulder-screws/=bbxt9u
> 
> McMaster has quite a variety of sizes.
> 
> Could you possible sneak a nut on the end of the stud without taking the motor apart?
> 
> BB


Hi guys,

Life has pulled my away in other directions over these past few weeks, but I'm just beginning to get back into tinkering with my old trains.

In regards to the missing gear and stud on my Lionel Jr. motors, I followed Bruce's advice and ordered a few shoulder screws from McMaster Carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#93985a524/=bouhpl

At first glance / fiddle, I think they might work out OK. The shaft diameter is just about perfect for the gear bore. The shaft length is a tiny bit too long, but I can add a thin washer to fill the gap between the gear and the screw head. More importantly, my first-run test fit shows some promise ...

I tapped the original stud-mount-hole in the motor side plate (in way of the missing original stud) with a 6-32 tap. However, the motor sideplate is too thin to yield enough threads to hold the shoulder screw in place tightly. I kind of expected that. Next, I positioned a 6-32 nut on the inside of the motor plate, and threaded the shoulder screw through the motor sideplate and into the nut. Tighten, and it holds the screw rock solid. However ...

I had to first grind down the threaded length of the shoulder screw ... as delivered, it's too long, and bumps into the motor's field coil on the inside of the motor plate. And, even with that ground shorter, the nut (mentioned above) it a bit too thick ... the spinning armature bumps into the inner face of the nut a bit ... not good. But, with some work, I think I can grind down the thickness of the nut further, such that it will hold the screw, and be thin enough so as to not interfere with the armature.

Anyway ... that's the plan. I don't have any gears yet ... haven't placed my order of stuff with Jeff Kane just yet. I need replacement wheel bearings on one of the motors, too, and likely new wheels throughout.

However, with some fiddling, and some luck, I'm hoping to bring these motors back to life. After all, I now have 7 (!!!) empty 1681 loco shells sitting on my bench. I have 2 motors fully rebuilt and ready to drop in (once the shells are stripped and repainted), and perhaps another 3 motors (dsicussed in this thread) that I might get going, too.

Well see ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

After you get this stable of #1681 locomotives, what are you going to do with all of them? Are we looking at a 1681 raffle here on the forum?


----------



## tjcruiser

Ha ha ...

One never knows ... one never knows ...


----------



## tjcruiser

Well, spring is here (finally), and I have the fix-it bug again. I just placed a big parts order with Jeff Kane for the Lionel 1681 locos and #56 lamp post:

3 drive wheel sets, 6 axles, 4 front truck assemblies, 2 idle gears, 2 axle bushings, 6 drive rods, 6 copper domes, 3 copper smokestacks, 1 head lamp bracket, 6 motor brushes, 6 motor springs, a bunch of parts to rebuild the #56 lamp, and ...

... a partridge in a pear tree.

It's Christmas all over again ... in April!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I always love getting the care packages from Jeff, even though I have to pay for them.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Lionel 1681 Loco - New Middle Gear*

Hi guys,

*THE GOOD NEWS ...*

I've gone ahead with the custom install of a new middle gear on one of my Lioen 1681 loco motors. As we discussed above, this particular motor was missing its middle gear along with the stud that holds it in place. I was able to buy a replacement gear from Jeff Kane, but the stud mount tood some thinking.

I've used a hex-head shoulder screw from McMaster Carr. I tapped the motor sideplate for the screw, but the sideplate itself is too thin (with too few threads) to hold the stud securely. So, I've added a nut on the back (inside) face of the motor sideplate. However, as you can see in the photos below, a "normal" nut would have hit the armature windings as the armature spun around. So, I grabbed the Dremel, and ground down a nut to make a half-thickness nut. Just enough savings in nut thickness to now provide adequate clearance between the nut and the armature.

Works OK!

*THE BAD NEWS ...*

As you can see, this motor is missing its real wheel axle bearings ... (see hole in motor frame just to the right of the middle gear). I had ordered a pair from Jeff, but as it turns out, he only stocks a different kind. So, as it stands now, I'm a bit screwed. No rear axle bearings.

Sharon at Olsen's was kind enough to tell me that the proper bearing is Part # 1661E-25 ... however, they don't have any. I've contacted a few other parts dealers, but haven't heard anything back just yet.

*Do any of you guys know where I can find axle bearings for this prewar Lionel Jr motor ??? I've included a dimensional sketch, below.*

*AND FINALLY ...*

The last picture shows my 1681 Loco Junkyard Assembly Line. Most things are pretty seedy at this point. However, the red shell on the left is near mint condition, and I've already rebuilt the two motors on the top right. The rest is my springtime / summertime project.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Will one from a Marx motor fit?  Sorry, I don't have any pre-war Jr. stuff.


----------



## tjcruiser

Don't know ... how big is a Marx bearing? Probably not a good chance of a match. I'd have better luck with an old Ives loco, which was, in fact, the predecesor to these Lionel Jr locos.

Here's an alternate question / option...

The existing (original) bearings were mounted in a hole bored in the motor sideplate of about 0.200" diameter. The "new" bearings from Jeff (which are NOT a match) are sized to mount in a motor sideplate hole of about 0.260" diameter ... a hair bigger than a standard 1/4" drill bit hole.

I'm toying with the idea of drilling (reaming?) out the existing holes in the motor sidesplates to enlarge them to accomodate the new (larger) bearings.

Any suggestions on how I could enlarge the hole ACCURATELY? I'd need to keep the diameter tolerance very tight in order to accomodate a press fit of the new bearings. And I'd need to keep the center of the new hole dead-center with the existing hole.

At first thought, it sounds simple ... prop up the motor on the drill press, and go at it with a 1/4" drill. However ...

1. Drilling through thin steel is tricky ... the bit (at least the one I have) has a tendency to bind and chew up the metal as it nears the end of its cut.

2. I've tested a 1/4" bit hole in some scrap metal, and it's a bit too small for the bearing size. If I drill (initially) with a 1/4" bit, how would I enlarge the hole in the motor sideplate to fit (exactly) the bearing for a tight press fit?

Any tips on how to accurately enlarge an existing hole in thin sheet steel would be appreciated.

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Make a jig that will align it up.

To be easier use a brass blank and drill it to fit.


----------



## servoguy

You could use a bushing from McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/#sleeve-bearings/=bvaaz8 You would need to take it to a machine shop and get one end turned down to fit the motor side plate.

If you want to enlarge the existing hole, use a tapered reamer. It is unlikely that you would do well with a drill bit. If you do elect to drill it out, use several drill bits, enlarging the hole slightly with each drill. You might be well off to buy a set of numbered drills from Harbor Freight, if you don't have a set already.

You might be able to chuck the bushings from McMaster in a drill press and use a flat file to turn down the end to the right size. You should be able to do this accuratly enough. Turn the drill press up to high speed. 

Make friends with someone that has a small lathe.

Get some brass tubing from you LHS. Get a few sizes that will fit inside each other and make a stepped bushing. Solder the brass tubes together to make the bushing.

Bruce Baker


----------



## servoguy

McMaster has brass tubing


----------



## servoguy

You could run a piece of brass tubing from one side to the other and forget the stepped bearing concept.


----------



## T-Man

Bearing Companies do have long bushings.
I went with R/C car bearings for my F-3. Work like a champ. They were all good to a 1/16th, 3 by 5 fit unflanged but they did have those too!

EXAMPLES IN METRIC


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys ... GREAT TIPS!

My current (hopeful) thinking ...

I did an online search, and it appears (maybe) that two Lionel parts suppliers might stock the original bearings ... part # 1661E-25, as far as I can tell: Brasseur Electric Trains (a.k.a. traindoctor.com ), and Smitty's Toy Train Parts. I've pinged them both with email inquiries.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks again, guys ... good options!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Sounds like you're on your way to the best solution.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Another 1681 Loco Lives to See Another Day*

Hey guys,

One of the key reasons that I bought the ebay junk lot featured in this thread is that it contained a never run, new-old-stock prewar 1681 loco shell ... a red one, with near-pristine paint (just a few tiny chips) and shiny metal trim. The lot also had several Lionel Jr motors that I've slowly been fixing up.

Well, the shell has now been mated to a revamped motor ...

New (repro wheels). Fully rewired with original manual reverse switch. New (repro) drive rods. Cleaned and lubed throughout.

Runs like a charm. Another one saved. And more to tackle next ...

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## novice

Wow, that's sweet 

Great job on recon that.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Nice looking loco!


----------



## T-Man

A Beauty!

The front wheel is interesting. I have one for the 259 and it has spokes.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

The front wheel is a repro from Jeff Kane. When I ordered it (and a few others), he asked if I wanted the plain version (above), or a spoked version. As all of the 1681's I've seen have the plain wheels, I went that route. That said, I do like the spoked looked on your 259 very much.

Interesting, too ... a couple of my 1681's have front wheels (original?) that are smaller in diameter than the wheels on other 1681's. I think the larger version (per the repro above) is more appropriately sized to the loco frame.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*At the 1681 Factory ... Next in Line, Please ...*

"Can I help the next loco in line, please? NEXT! ..."

Uhh ... OK ...

(Nov, John, T ... thanks for the nice comments, above!)

After some nervous / sleepless nights, I was finally able to track down a source for replacement (repro) axle bearings for these Lionel Jr motors ... Dean Brasseur at traindoctor.com . Smitty at smittystoytrainparts.com also has them. Part # 1661E-25 .

I ordered 4 bearings. I've installed two here on this loco (the rear axle holes) simply by CA glueing them in place. There's enough glue bond area around the perimenter of the bearing (it has a shoulder) that I think it will hold OK. You can see them clearly in the "down from the top" photo.

I mentioned earlier that I've replaced the middle gear stud and the middle gear. The new stud is a McMaster-Carr shoulder screw with it's threaded shank filed down in length a bit. Tapped into the motor side plate, with a filed-down-in-thickness backing nut on the inside of the motor. It took a little hand machining, but I think it will work out fine.

This motor as found had no e-unit. However, I can tell that it was an e-unit motor, because the cross-bar at the top of the motor (just behind the armature) is round. E-unit motors have round bars.

Lionel Jr motors that had a manual reverse switch (like the one shown below) had a brass SQUARE cross-bar at the top of the motor. The brass bar had a little flat-faced recess on its aft side, which is where the manual reverse switch was mounted.

However ... in my case, I had an extra (spare) manual reverse switch, an a (once upon a time) e-unit Lionel Jr motor with the round bar. An apple and an orange, so to speak. So, to make things fit, I ground down a flat-faced recess on the rear of the top round cross-bar, and drilled a hole through its center (front to back) to accept the screw that holds the manual reverse switch in place.

Most would never know the difference. But I'm 'fessing up ... I've cheated ... I've stuck a manual reverse switch on an e-unit motor. Call the restoration police!

One detail that IS IMPORTANT for anyone tackling Lionel Jr restoration work with a manual reverse switch ... the cross-bar that the switch is mounted on has to be able to pivot about +/- 5 degrees, such that one can tilt the manual reverse switch lever a bit while reinstalling the motor into the loco shell. This pivot/tilt is critical to being able to directing the lever up through the slot in the top of the motor shell.

Next, I need to reinstall the bottom fiber contact plate. I had removed it earlier to gain access to install the gear stud nut. While removed, I soldered on a new "hot" center pickup wire to the contact plate. It's difficult to do that otherwise (without the plate removed). Reinstalling the plate is a bit of a PITA ... one has to spread/coax/force/*sswhip the motor sideplates apart, such that the fiber plate's tabs will mate into the rectangular holes in the sideplates. I'm gonna try this later today, but I'm not looking forward to it.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You're really into this stuff hardcore!  Looks like these engines have been a real education, nice going. 

Just curious, what is supposed to hold the bearings in place? I would have thought they'd be a press fit.


----------



## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Just curious, what is supposed to hold the bearings in place? I would have thought they'd be a press fit.


Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that the bearings were originally press fit into place ... likely before the two motor sideplates were assembled together as one unit.

I've also seen a little "peen tool" from some hard-core parts suppliers that has a ball-round head. Presumably, once the bearing was press fit into place, you'd place the ball against the outside bore (opening) of the bearing, support the back side, then give the ball tool a little tap. In theory, it would flare out the very end of the bearing just enough to lock it into place, grabbing the edge of the hole in the motor side plate.

In my case, the repro bearings were a couple of thousandths of an inch small for a tight press fit. Snug, but not tight enough for a true press. So, I pushed them (easily) in place, and added a small drop of CA glue to the interface joint. Seems solid to me.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

If they fall out, you'll know pretty quickly! 

I think I mentioned I bought a riveting kit that has dies and anvils for a number of tasks, it's been very handy to have. It has several staking dies, but I'm not sure if it would apply here.

I would think you could stake the bearing by supporting it on the inside and staking it on the outside. Then add the CA glue to be a "second line of defense".


----------



## Big Ed

Excellent TJ.:thumbsup:

You did put the light bulb in right?


Next?


----------



## tjcruiser

*"From that fateful day when stinking bits of slime first crawled from the sea and shouted to the cold stars, "I am man!," our greatest dread has always been the knowledge of our mortality. But tonight, we shall hurl the gauntlet of science into the frightful face of death itself. Tonight, we shall ascend into the heavens. We shall mock the earthquake. We shall command the thunders, and penetrate into the very womb of impervious nature herself.

DO YOU HEAR ME?! GIVE MY CREATION LIFE!!!!"*

And so it happened ...

New axle bearings. New middle gear and gear stud. New wheels. A manual reverse switch transplant. A lamp-holder-ectomy. A total rewire.

AND IT IS ALIVE!!! PULSING, VIBRANT LIFE!!! IT IS ALIVE !!!!!!!

Passionately,

Dr. Frankenstein ... (that's pronounced Frahhnk-en-steeeenn.)


----------



## T-Man

Electrifying!

After thinking about the bearings. I would use a tapered rod and tap it. That would stake the outside rim enough.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I think I'd be nervous without any staking on the bearings, the tapered rod sounds like a good idea.


----------



## tjcruiser

How would I support the back side (inside the motor sideplates) while tapping / flaring the outside of the bearing? Maybe wedge something rigid between the two bearings?

(Next time, though ... axle / wheels are in at this point.)

TJ


----------



## T-Man

It's soft brass. A bar or square shaft screwdriver across a vise. Two wood wedges too!

The center pickup can't be there. A bolt with two nuts will hold it but that will limit the length of the taper drift pin used.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'd use a chunk of steel and then a wood wedge to hold it in place. It's nice to have the steel anvil for the lack of "give" when you are peening it.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> A bolt with two nuts will hold it but that will limit the length of the taper drift pin used.


T-Man ...

That's a smart idea ... a headless bolt put where the axle normally goes. Two nuts threaded on the bolt, spun into position so that they just touch the inside of the two bearings, acting like an internal support brace between the bearings.

I like that idea!!! Easy adjustment for a perfect compression fit!

Maybe that idea, in conjunction with the ball-head (rather than cone head) peen tools I've seen. Almost like the little ball on the end of an old-fashioned glass cutter tool.

Thanks!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I think I'd use the cone head peening tool, you want to spread the outer part of the bearing just enough to make it tight. I don't think the ball shape would be the best for that.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks. Any cone-shaped tool, like a nail set or awl or similar?

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You want the angle to be sharp enough so that it flares out the end without enlarging the whole bearing race. Also, an awl may get stuck when you pound it in. 

I have a set of punches that has one with about a 30 degree bevel, probably be just the ticket for peening something like this.


----------



## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ... 30 degree bevel ...


Duly noted ... thanks!


----------



## T-Man

*Demo*










I should try to measure that angle.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, T!

And that got me thinking ... when John said "30 degrees", I wonder if he meant from cone centerline to cone edge, or from cone edge all the way to the other cone edge? Your tool looks about 30 from edge to edge.

I still like your screw inside compression brace idea. One would have to cut off the tip of the cone tool for that (to avoid having the tip poke into the screw), but perhaps that would be the best way to go ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The tool that T-Man has there is what I was referring to. You want enough taper to avoid enlarging a lot of the bearing inner surface. I'm guessing that tool would wedge that bearing in with a couple light swats of the hammer.


----------



## T-Man

It's a Sears alignment tool.

They don't suggest it's use as a drift pin/chisel but I use it to punch the axles out. They come in a set. Very handy.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Switching Gears ...*

Any of you guys still following the minutia of this thread know that this is the story of my attempted resurrection of a bunch of Lionel 1681 loco junk parts that I picked up in an ebay auction. The junk lot included 3 disected Lionel Jr motors, 2 of which had missing middle gears ...

Of those, one motor was missing the gear stud itself (I've already rebuilt that motor, as shown earlier in this thread), and the other motor had no gear, but a rock-sold intact stud.

This is his story ...

The original studs were T-shaped ... a simple shaft to act as an axle for the gear, with a T-head to hold the gear in place. The studs were peened into the motor side plate from the inside of the motor (during the original motor assembly process). The gear on this motor must have long-ago cracked in half, falling off, and leaving an intact stud remaining. Unfortunately, there's no simple way to slip on a new gear ... it won't fit over the T head of the stud. What to do???

I thought about cutting the stud fully away, and replacing it with a shoulder screw as I did on the motor rebuild shown earlier in this thread. If the stud was loose and wobbly, I would have considered that. However, the stud was rock-solid ... mounted absolutely rigidly to the motor side plate. So, after a bit of head scratching, I've committed to grinding away the T head of the stud to allow one to fit the gear onto the stud shaft itself. But once done, what would hold the gear in place?

The answer, I think, is the loco drive wheels themselves. They overlap the face of the gear, with a reasonably close "gap" tolerance on the back side of the wheels.

The photos below convey my thinking ...

TJ



The original motor with intact stud, but no middle gear:









Here, I've grinded away the T-head of the stud:









So that I can slip the gear on to the remaining stud shaft:









And now, slip gear-side drive wheels into place:









Here's the view from the bottom of the motor, showing how close the inner face of the drive wheels are to the face of the gear. The wheels should hold the gear on the stud nicely, I think:


----------



## Big Ed

Nice and shiny.

Why don't you put a tab of T mans epoxy on it for added safety?


You are becoming quite the T-Man.:thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

Not sure an expoxy tabbed T tip would hold.

I thought about drilling and tapping a small hole in the end of the stud so that I could insert a small retaining screw. However, for me to be able to tap the threads in the hole (at least with the small tap I have on hand), the hole itself would have to be so long that it would drill through the peened-over stud tip that holds the stud in place on the motor side plate. I ruled that option out.

I'm only a tiny "t" worker ant crawling amidst the shadows of the all-powereful, omnipotent, and duly exhalted T-Man ... guru of all things in need of repair!

tj (small "t")


----------



## tjcruiser

*Installing new wheels on a Lionel Jr motor*

Hi guys,

As I was discussing drive wheels in the "Switching Gears" post above, I thought I'd offer a few quick "lessons learned" thoughts on mounting new drive wheels and axles ...

The Lionel Jr motors shown in this thread all feature new (reproduction) drive wheels from Jeff Kane. (The few original wheels that I had were brittle, cracked, with chewed-up drive-rod studs.) I also bought new (reproduction) axles from Jeff, which come with "splined" ends.

I've now fit several sets of drive wheels to these Lionel Jr motors, and have learned a few lessons ... both the hard way, and the easy way. Here's a quick summary ...

Lesson #1 ... the splined ends of the axles as supplied by Jeff are a bit too big to fit into the wheel holes, and also a bit too big to pass through the motor's wheel bearings. Because of that second (important) point, one needs to file down the axle splined ends just a bit such that they'll fit easily through the bearings, and press firmly into the wheels. (Enlarging the holes in the wheels won't work ... the axle would fit into the wheel, but not through the bearing hole in the motor side plate.)

Lesson #2 ... in the "file them down" department, it doesn't take much, and "too much" comes far too easy. I learned that lesson the hard way. What I'm now doing is mounting the axles in a drill press, and with the drill press spinning, I "just barely kiss" the face of the spline with a small fine-toothed file. I angle the file slightly inward towards the end of the axle, such that I'm creating (ever so barely) a cone-shaped taper to the axle spline. And -- this is important -- I PUT VERY LIGHT PRESSURE ON THE FILE FOR JUST ONE OR TWO SECOND INTERVALS. After each pass, I remove the axle from the drill, and try it (that specific axle end) on each wheel, getting a sense as to whether it's still to big, or beginning to engage in a tight tapered fit.

Lesson #3 -- not all wheels are equal. I've notice that the bore (hole) in each wheels varies a tiny bit in size, such that an axle that snugly fits one wheel might be too tight or too loose on another wheel.

Lesson #4 -- with the above point in mind, I repeat the drill-press filing as needed to size each side of each axle for mating to a specific wheel. Mark each wheel and each axle end to keep track of what goes where.

Lesson #5 -- to mount an axle, I start WITH THE GEARED WHEELS FIRST. I place the wheel gear-side facing up on a wood block. (For the wheel with the drive rod stud, I have the stud poke downwards into a hole predrilled into the wood block.) I then tap the axle into the wheel using a hammer, with several gentle but steady taps. Once I have an axle in each gear wheel, I then poke these axles through the motor bearings. The reason why I do the gear side first, is that it's easier to now orient these geared wheels properly, such that the wheel spokes line up with each other nicely while the gear teeth are all engaged.

Lesson #6 -- I then position the motor (again) with its geared wheels facing down on my wood block. Next, I place the rear no-geared wheel on the rear axle, and turn it in orientation such that its drive-rod stud is positioned 90-degrees from its mate on the other side of the motor. Using a second wood block (with another hole for this drive rod stud), I tap this wheel into place. Once done, I position the forward non-geared wheel (aligning the wheel spokes again), and tap that into place. (In the photo below, I screwed up ... remove the brush plate from the motor before any wheel instal steps!)

Lesson #7 -- During the Lesson #6 wheel tapping, I learned that the axles have a tendency to want to poke through the lower (geared) wheels further, inducing a divot into the lower wood block. To stop this (and to keep the axles in proper position on those lower geared wheels), I tape a thin washer (or a dime) just below the head of the axle -- between it and the wood block. This prevents the axle from "poking down further" while tapping on the top (non-geared) wheels. I tap the 2nd-side (non-geared) wheels on such that there's about 1/32" of play between each mated wheel set and the motor frame itself.

Happy rolling!

TJ


The new (reproduction) wheel set and splined axles from Jeff Kane:










Here I'm "kissing" the splined ends of the axles with a file ... very gently, with a minor tapered angle ... for just a second or two. (DRILL PRESS WOULD BE SPINNING, IF I WASN'T TAKING A PHOTO!)










Axle tapped with hammer into geared wheel. I place the wheel face down, with the drive-rod-stud poking into hole in wood:










Axles driven into geared wheels. I tape a washer over the end of the axle to prevent it poking through when I tap on the wheels from the other side:










Second wood block (with hole for drive-rod-stud) to tap on non-geared wheels. NOTE: I SHOULD HAVE REMOVED THE BRUSH PLATE BEFORE TAKING THE PICTURE ... SORRY ABOUT THAT!!! DON'T WHACK ON THE BRUSH PLATE!










Wheels on! Good to roll!


----------



## novice

All I can say is amazing - I am so envious of your crafting ability and knowledge - excellent job and tutorial - not that I could do something like that, but great just the same.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You must REALLY like those engines, because you're sure putting a lot of work into them! 

Nice pictures, shows the steps very clearly. Your experience proves the old saying "measure twice, cut once".


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
I don't see any reason that retaining the gear with the wheels shouldn't work. Lionel does this on many of their locos. 

Nice job, by the way.

Bruce Baker


----------



## T-Man

TJ ,
you're the Big T for the Lionel Jr, but maybe you would prefer "Junior T"? 

The engine looks great. One reason for the oversize is to fit on an old worn part. The axle being larger and the new wheel hole being slightly smaller.


----------



## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

For those just jumping in, this is a thread about my hopeless addiction: 1681 loco mainlining. Ohh ... when I did my first a while back, I thought it would just be for fun. But the euphoric thrill was ohh so sweet, that I soon did another ... then another. I was hooked. My body chemistry had been hopelessly altered. Addiction at it worst.

Ohh ... I tried to quit ... on several occassions. But the withdrawal pains are too severe. I can't think straight ... my hands shake ... and (worst of all) I spend hours and hours cruisin' the seedy, dark, depths of eBay late at night.

Hope is gone. I wallow in my own despair. My only peace is to give in fully to the addiction, and to let the brief but euphoric high take my altered state to some mystic place, far, far away.

I've surrended to the evil, and shamefully resort to 1681 mainlining ...










Here we have seven old 1681's, each stripped down to their cold, bitter core. Their inner depths fully exposed. Two are pretty far gone. The other five are at their seedy worst ... dirty, rusty, mangled. But, miraculously, the word on the street is that salvation might just smile its gift of uplifting hope their way.

Only time can tell for sure ... only time can tell ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

TJ, you truly do have a serious problem, have you considered therapy?


----------



## T-Man

*!!!*

The Magnificient Seven! :thumbsup:

It's one reason I havent tried to get one. You keep bidding on them.


----------



## tjcruiser

Ha ha ... I do need therapy, don't I ?!?

T-Man ... not to let the cat out of the bag, but there's whispers that one of these puppies might be taking a trip to southern NH later this summer!

TJ


----------



## T-Man

I guess, I will have to stay tuned.

I can't believe you stripped seven of them. Just that is an accomplishment.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I can't believe he has seven more of them he's going to do!


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> I can't believe you stripped seven of them. Just that is an accomplishment.


Giant tin-foil lasagna pan sitting under the apple tree over the weekend. Two Easy Off baths. Getting rid of the old paint is the simple part. Buffing up every nook and cranny with the stainless Dremel brush will take some time, but I gotta get rid of all of the rust veins, surface gunk, etc.

Of the 7 shells, I'm hoping to get 5 more-or-less complete locos. We'll see, though.

Depending on how the wire brush-down goes, I might try to metal clear-coat one, just for fun.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man

You can save some time and visit a hardware store. They do make BIGGER wheels. They work great with a drill, if the part isn't delicate. Just stay with a fine brush.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I use that size working on rusty track.


----------



## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

Just getting back into this multi-loco 1681 project. After a paint-strip job a few weeks ago, the loco parts have been sitting in my basement ... my humid basement, gathering a little layer of new rust on top of the old rust.

I've started cleaning the parts down to bare metal with a Dremel stainless steel brush. It's tedious work, but well worth the effort ... rust is 99.9% gone, with shiny metal revealed. On 6 loco shells (each with boiler, cab, frame, steamchest, boiler front), I've worn through something like 10 or 12 Dremel brushes. Lots of tiny "splinters of pain" in my feet! But happy results so far.

I'm hoping to get a coat of primer on all parts this weekend. Then, I need to think about color schemes. My thinking as of now ...

Boiler, Cab, & Steamchest / Frame ...

Black / Red (an original Lionel scheme)
Red / Red (an original Lionel scheme)
Red / Black (a "reversed" scheme)
Green / Red (a Christmas look)
Light Blue / Dark Blue (quasi Comet look)
Clear coat throughout (maybe ... I need to look for bare-metal clearcoat spray products)

Thoughts on color???

TJ


----------



## Badwolf & Arizona RR

Green and Yellow - Arizona and California RR


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That's what happens when you stop and rest, rust forms.


----------



## tjcruiser

*A MTF Public Service Announcement ...*

(This is an ongoing public service announcement offering a case-study on the delusional hallucinations of a hopeless addict. What follows below is a warped, twisted perspective on reality, for no sane person would ever view the world in such a chaotic, kaleidoscopic manner. In short: trains are drugs ... this is your brain on trains ...)



"Hey, man ... what a wild trip ... look at all the pretty colors ... dude ... whoa ... wild stuff, man ...outrageous ..."


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

What did you do, paint everything in your parts box? :laugh:


----------



## Big Ed

And he calls me an addict?:laugh:

Looking good...... man.:thumbsup:

Why not a fifth different color?


----------



## tjcruiser

Ed, etc.,

Unseen in the photo is a boiler shell and cab that have been stripped to bare metal with a Dremel stainless brush. I need to figure out how to polish the metal further ... buffing wheel??? The tentative plan is to clearcoat those, and mount them on one of the blue frames and steamchests shown above.

Any ideas on how to polish the tinplate metal further ... beyond simply the "swirly" look of a Dremel brush???

Thanks,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'd try a buffing wheel and jeweler's rouge, that might buff out the swirls.


----------



## T-Man

How do you hide the overspray at the office? 
A lot of work but they look great! :thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> How do you hide the overspray at the office?
> A lot of work but they look great! :thumbsup:



He is still working on getting the red paint out of his hair from the paint can mishap.:laugh:

Just punk your hair out and add some blue streaks TJ.:thumbsup::laugh:


----------



## tjcruiser

Ed,

I can't imagine what you're talking about. My hair is perfectly normal as is ...










Your favorite color, too! 

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Handrail Cleats ...*

Boy, am I glad I got the 1681 shell painting done last weekend when the weather was cool. It's hot as h*ll here now. In times past, I've tried to paint in hot weather, and it's a bad idea ... the paint often fogs up on the surface as it dries.

Anyway ...

I've started working on cleaning up the trim pieces for these locos. I polished up the handrails today, and began to look at the "handrail cleats" that hold them in place. Each handrail needs 4 cleats ... I have 44 cleats ... enough for 11 rails, or 5 1/2 locos. Unfortunately, most of mine were badly bent and distorted out of shape. They're tiny little things that are suppposed to be shaped like this:










Most of mine were squished, mushed, and disfigured. I used two pairs of needle nose pliers to straighten the lower section, always working with a handrail through the "hole" at the top so as not to distort that out of shape.

I trimmed the heads off of two small brad nails, and held them in place left/right below the round head of the cleat. Then, I used a small channel-lock pliers to squeeze these nails together ... essentially squeezing the "neck" of the cleat back into shape, without further distorting the round head or the lower "shoulders".

With patience, I was able to salvage all of the cleats, and then polished them up with a Dremel stainless brush.

(I'll need 4 additional cleats to be able to "build" a 6th loco.)

When they're installed, they'll look like this (from one of my earlier loco projects):










Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Why didn't you just by a hundred from Jeff?:laugh:

Nice, they look good.:thumbsup:

Is this a picture of the painted train?
What are those dark marks on the cab roof?


----------



## tjcruiser

Actually, I have no idea if Jeff has those cleats available. I need 4 more, so I'll ask him next time I order something.

I "built" that loco using the original, never-run shell that was part of my e-bay junk lot. It's near-virgin paint, with just a few tiny chips. My other repainted locos look great, but there's something to be said for having a true original, never-been-run shell. And I know that it's never been run, because there's absolutely no "scarring" under the steam chest in way of where the front truck would pivot back and forth. I think it must have been a spare part (as a completed shell) packed away for years and years.

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
could you make the cleats by cutting strips from an aluminum can and bending them to the right shape?


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

Good thinking. I was wondering the same thing on my end, but with a different metal ... maybe thin brass from a hobby store? A tricky bend job, but if I start with the circle wrap around the handrail itself, it might be possible. I think the metal of the original ones is a stainless steel.

That said, I'm gonna check with Jeff Kane to see if he has a few of these. My 259 and 258 locos have the cleats, but I have to check to see if they are the same style/size. I think the 259 is a common enough loco that Jeff might have the parts for those.

Cheers!

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Fuzzy photo ...*

I fuzzy spy photo of what's brewing down in the addict's chem lab ...










Word on the street is that this specific concoction is destined for another (different) addict ...

Hmmm ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I guess you're running out of "plain" paint jobs and are starting to go for the exotic.  Looks good, I like the detailing.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Shell Shocked ...*

With luck, every addict goes through a period of rehab, drying out, and cleaning up ...

And from out of the depths of despair, hope rises with a new lease on life ...










TJ


----------



## Artieiii

very nice job. I like the color scheme with the contrasting colors.
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, Art. That's one of the original color schemes. I have a few "unconventional" color schemes planned for the redo of the other similar locos in this thread.

TJ


----------



## Badwolf & Arizona RR

That's a really cool color scheme. You can do a lot with Black and Red.

It looks phenomenal with the copper. Truly classic.

- Paul in AZ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Back on the Streets ...*

Sometimes, the long road to recovery pays off nicely, and we can live our lives anew ... this time, on the good side of the tracks ...



















Sadly, though (for me, at least), this little loco is destined for horizons afar ...

TJ


----------



## Artieiii

TJ,
Me thinks that's your best one yet. Someone will be happy in a far away place.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

*It's Just a Shell Game ...*

Life is funny. One minute, we're in the gutter, all strung out. The next, miraculously, we're all cleaned up, ready to live life anew. It's just a shell game, I think ... sometimes we lose, sometimes we win ...

This guy got lucky ...










He's got that year round Christmas spirit. He needs a motor to get up and running again. I have a few ready to go on the bench, but I'm not sure if black wheels or red wheels would be best suited. Maybe some green wheels?

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Life Altering Moments ...*

The theme of this thread has been addiction, redemption, recovery, and rebirth. Sometimes the changes that one goes through on that long, difficult road are so arduous, that one ultimately faces profound life altering moments. Some find religion. Some dedicate themselves to helping others. And some change their colors in every way possible ...

Case in point ...

This little loco treaded through the dark, ominous back alleys of life with a black boiler shell, and a red frame. Look at him now ... resurrected, with a red boiler shell, and a black frame. The complete opposite of his older self.

I think his horizons are looking more and more hopeful ...










TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You are a very sick boy, but you do nice work.


----------



## Artieiii

I still like the black boiler and red chassis the best, but your 2 new additions are nicely done as well. Kind of a christmas theme family.
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You are a very sick boy ...


Ha ha ... sad, but true! :retard:

Thanks, Art, too!

I did a little work scoring my next "fix" today ... one of these 1681's reincarnated as a baby Blue Comet wannabe. We'll see if he makes it through rehab OK ...

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

They all look great.:thumbsup:

The black one needs some racing pinstripe.


----------



## T-Man

*1681 Addition*

TJ has hinted about an addoption for months. The mail lady delivered the other day. 

In a new home.











Thanks TJ it was very thoughful of you.

Bob

PS

As soon as I can read the fine print of the twelve page document I had to sign for custody and care, I'll get right on it!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

There's something in all his standard adoption documents about your first born, I'd read that part carefully. Of course, that depends on how well behaved your first born is, maybe it'll be a blessing in disguise to send them to TJ.


----------



## tjcruiser

Oop ... the cat's out of the bag, I guess ...

I had John help me install a set of spy cameras and sensors in the shell, T ... I'm watchin' ya'! 

On a serious note, this was my little way of thanking the T-Man for all of the wonderful and incredibly helpful "how to" advice he's offered me (and others) here on the forum. When I jumped into the model RR game a while back, I was totally clueless. The few tricks I've since learned are in no small part due to the guidance, help, and patience that T-Man and so many others have graciously offered.

Many, many thanks.

(Oh, and Reckers ... you'll note that the coveted upper/inner loop is a full 1/4" _higher_ than the nearby S loop!  )

TJ


----------



## Artieiii

*T-Man Scores!*

T-man scores! Can't wait for the webcast of T-man's layout from the spy camera LOL.
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

*Baby Blues ...*

The problem with being an addict is that during those "tripped out" moments, our perception of reality goes out the window, and twisted halucinogetic visions take over our minds. Case in point ...

To any normal person, we see below another little 1681 loco shell. But to me, in my mind-altered state, I see baby Blue Comet itchin' to run around the tracks with all of the big-league locos ...










It's not, of course ... but in those few moment of euphoric high, it's nice to let the dream carry you away ...

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Red Red Wine ...*

Addicts all have their different preferences of poison. For me, it's 1681 locos ... especially red ones ... they go to my head ... in a UB40 sort of way ...

*Red red wine goes to my head 
Makes me forget that I still need you so 

Red red wine 
It's up to you 
All I can do I've done 
Memories won't go 
Memories won't go 

I have sworn every time 
Thoughts of you would leave my head 
I was wrong, now I've found 
Just one thing makes me forget... 

Red red wine ...*












TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*The Detox Meeting ...*

Our support group detox meeting. The gang is all cleaned up, awaiting doctor's orders to get motorized. Well, most of the gang ... we're all still hopeful for "the one who got away" ...












TJ

*UPDATE --

I wanted to document the colors used on these locos.* Krylon spray can paint, with Krylon primer, thoughout ...

Loco #1 -- Gloss Banner Red throughout

Loco #2 -- Boiler shell, cab, and steamchest: Satin Hunter Green. Frame: Gloss Banner Red

Loco #3 -- Boiler shell, and cab: Gloss Bahama Sea. Frame: Gloss Regal Blue with Gloss Banner Red cowcatcher

Loco #4 -- Boiler shell, cab, and steamchest: Gloss Banner Red. Frame: Gloss Black

and ...

The Loco for T-Man -- Boiler shell, cab, and steamchest: Gloss Black. Frame: Gloss Banner Red

I used a Pilot Gold pen to pinstripe the steamchests, and a hobby-shop jar of Testors copper paint for the headlamps. I used airplane dope to clearcoat the shiny metal parts.

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
The picture didn't show up.
B


----------



## tjcruiser

Sorry ... I'll fix it tomorrow (Friday).

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... I see the picture, and it was there yesterday.


----------



## tjcruiser

Strange ... it was there for me yesterday afternoon, then not at night. This morning, it was shown OK on one computer, but not on another. Gremlins. I've reloaded the photo, so I hope it shows everywhere OK.

TJ


----------



## Badwolf & Arizona RR

Pictures are working fine for me.

- Paul in AZ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Life Anew ...*

Quick update ...

Busy with work today, but I managed to mount my rebuilt motor with an e-unit into the red 1681 (1681E, actually) today. Nice fit. New repro front truck assembly from Jeff Kane ...










TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The front wheels do look brand new.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Shoe Repair ...*

I had a little problem with continuity of power through the pickup shoes on this motor. They were a little loose as mounted in the copper spring clips (on the back of the bottom black fiber plate). As such, the loco would arbitrarily cycle into fwd/neutral/reverse while running over any small bumps in the track.

Given the loose fit of the shoes, I was thinking something like this might happen. Sure enough ...

I popped the shoes off, and then had to somehow bend the copper spring clips further down to give more grab tension for the shoe. To do this, I got a small "L-shaped" Allen wrench, and slipped the short side underneath each spring clip, about 3/8" in past the end. This raised the clip above the back of the fiber plate, and created a fulcrum point for me to be able to bend the outermost section of the clip (that last 3/8" or so) back down with a flathead screwdriver. The result is that I imposed a little downward-curved bow into the clips, which now impose much more down-tension to hold each shoe into place.

Good shoe tension and continuity now ... the loco is running like a champ.

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
Sometimes I think about how much this loco thrilled its new owner so many years ago. I remember when I got my first train at Christmas in 1950. 
Bruce


----------



## tjcruiser

servoguy said:


> TJ,
> Sometimes I think about how much this loco thrilled its new owner so many years ago.


Bruce,

I get nostalgic like that, too. That kind of wondering inspired my Christmas poem a while back ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5622

TJ


----------



## T-Man

TJ what do you think of these?

Ebay listing


----------



## Big Ed

Some kid did an excellent job trying to paint a patriotic train engine.:thumbsup:

( I hope it was not an adult!) :laugh:

Shipping kills the deal huh?


----------



## jreid

How do you guys strip paint? Stripper or do you boil the shells in detergent? 
Locomotives like those would make a good start on a project if one lived where he could pick them up as opposed to paying for postage. There again if you really wanted teh shells the postage isnt really a deal killer, two gallons of gas would cost more.


----------



## Big Ed

jreid said:


> How do you guys strip paint? Stripper or do you boil the shells in detergent?
> Locomotives like those would make a good start on a project if one lived where he could pick them up as opposed to paying for postage. There again if you really wanted teh shells the postage isnt really a deal killer, two gallons of gas would cost more.



There are threads here on the stripping procedure. Did you try using the search?
If you can't find them I will try.
But the ones who made them can do it easier.


----------



## jreid

I will search when ready to strip one


----------



## tjcruiser

Hey T-Man -- somewhere under all of those crazy, craclking colors are a couple of beautiful locos just itchin' to ride the rails again!

J -- I've learned from T-Man, Big Ed, and others here on the forum that Easy Off Oven Cleaner makes a great stripper. I disassemble the locos into pieces, place them in an old lasagna pan, spray on the Easy Off liberally, cover with tinfoil, and leave OUTSIDE in the shade for a few hours. It'll turn the paint to ooze, which rinses off. Follow up with a ScotchBrite pad rubdown, and then a detailed Dremel stainless wire brush buff.

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

My lone stripping project was done with oven cleaner, and it worked very well, so I'd recommend that as well. A bonus is that the stuff I used (generic Safeway brand) didn't eat the plastic bag, but worked just fine on the paint.


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Hey T-Man -- somewhere under all of those crazy, craclking colors are a couple of beautiful locos just itchin' to ride the rails again!
> 
> J -- I've learned from T-Man, Big Ed, and others here on the forum that Easy Off Oven Cleaner makes a great stripper. I disassemble the locos into pieces, place them in an old lasagna pan, spray on the Easy Off liberally, cover with tinfoil, and leave OUTSIDE in the shade for a few hours. It'll turn the paint to ooze, which rinses off. Follow up with a ScotchBrite pad rubdown, and then a detailed Dremel stainless wire brush buff.
> 
> TJ



I learned from you and T.



gunrunnerjohn said:


> My lone stripping project was done with oven cleaner, and it worked very well, so I'd recommend that as well. A bonus is that the stuff I used (generic Safeway brand) didn't eat the plastic bag, but worked just fine on the paint.


Yes just get a heavy duty oven cleaner not the kind that smells like lemons.:laugh:
Put in a freezer bag but don't seal (it ate through my bag) and sit it on something that won't corrode ( I used an old broiler pan I had) and let it sit 15 hours or so. 
Then I use an old toothbrush or hand brush and scrub it down before I rinse.
A second application might be better too.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I put mine on a cookie sheet that we put under pies and the like to catch the dips, it's cleaner than it's been in years after the treatment.


----------



## T-Man

So what do you think they are?

(TJ's early project?)










I don't think I could pass them up.

I think the bottom is Marx maybe an 898.

The front bumps on the boiler are holes for light a Marx feature.










I think the top is a Marx 999.










The bell and the front bumps are a giveaway. For 15 you can buy the 898 with engine!


----------



## jreid

Say what you wish, Marx engines have a lot of bang for the buck.


----------



## tjcruiser

T,

I agree with your Marx call. Many of the Marx tinplate locos (like the 2nd red one) have what I would call a "soft" transition between the boiler and the cab, i.e., from them being pressed out of one continuous sheet of steel.

I like that black-gold example loco you found of the 898. That's a good deal for under $20. I'll keep my eye on that, though I have yet to venture into the Marx game. Thanks for the link. If you have any interest, let me know, though, so I won't bid.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Checking Out of Rehab ...*

Hi guys,

This thread has been all about addiction ... specifically, my addiction to Lionel prewar 1681 locos. Along the way, you've see me and my cohorts at our deepest lows ... mangled, dirty, and strung out. You've also seen us all check into rehab, with a hope of cleaning up our act. You've seen us strip away all of our superfluous baggage, to expose the very core of our soul. You've seen the hard, tedious work associated with the fundamental steps of rehab. You've seen a few glimpses of hope at our new lease on life ...

And now, I'm happy to report that my cohorts and I are finally, and gladly checking out of rehab. We've cleaned up our act, and solemnly promise to live life on the straight and narrow (well .. O-gauge!) track, and to avoid being enticed by those seedy, mangled, twisted sirens lurking in the shadows and depths of ebay.

It is with those words and promise that I present an addict's life anew ... with hope on our side, and happy horizons ahead ...

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ, very nice. Are tenders to come?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Nice looking line-up. I second the question, those things need a matching tender.


----------



## tjcruiser

Ahh ... good question! I just started thinking about that myself. I do have 2 extra tenders for these 1681's, and another ebay good condition one on the way. I think I may keep the latter in it's original black/red scheme, and paint one of the others green/red, and the other in the blue Comet scheme.

Hmmm ...

So much for "staying clean" ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Can't have locomotives running around without tenders, where would they get their coal?


----------



## tjcruiser

servoguy said:


> TJ, very nice. Are tenders to come?


You guys arm twisted me ...

Here's the first color-matched tender ... red/green to go with the Christmas theme. (Pics have been updated, 12 Oct 2011)

TJ


----------



## Badwolf & Arizona RR

If I didn't know any better, I'd call that authentic.


----------



## Big Ed

Nice, now you need a Santa in the cab and Rudolph in the tender.
Along with some Christmas presents piled on top.

Some different colored blinking led lights strung around.
Wreath on the front of the boiler.

Very nice, Tin Man.:thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

big ed said:


> Nice, now you need a Santa in the cab and Rudolph in the tender.
> Along with some Christmas presents piled on top.


Ha ha ... gotta get in the Christmas spirit, I guess. It could be done, I think ... if one had little figures with a magnetic bottom, and perhaps a very thin layer of felt, such that they would stick to the tinplate without damaging the paint.

Ho ho ho ...

TJ


----------



## T-Man

*1681 Dents and Dings*

Some side dents and the rear view shows a roll on the roof that was compressed on the left











The fix was to remove the cab and hammered flat and the roll was fixed with the pliers.









'


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Nice undenting. Most of my 1681's have had ripples/bends in the rear part of the cab roof, too. I straightened out much of the damage with an anvil (like yours), and a 1.5" diameter oak dowel (stair handrail) that I hammered against the inside curve of the cab roof.

Oh ... just noticing your "nail" trick to fix the roll/bend on the edge of the cab roof ... very clever there!!!

Glad to see your breathing some life into the 1681. Welcome to the mad, crazy club!!!

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

I updated post 167 above with clearer pics of the Christmas train, tender, etc.

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You need a log load in that Christmas tender.


----------



## Artieiii

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You need a log load in that Christmas tender.


Yeah maybe a yule log LOL
-Art


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I was thinking fuel for the boiler, those old steamers used wood.


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> I updated post 167 above with clearer pics of the Christmas train, tender, etc.
> 
> TJ


To bad the tender didn't come with journals, some gold ones would look nice.


----------



## tjcruiser

No slots for the journal tabs on the "truck" sides.

As for some gold, I do want to add a thin gold stripe around the perimeter of the red "Lionel Lines" graphic. I've used a Pilot gold paint-pen to do this on my other (same style) tenders, but here on this one, the paint transition between the red area (original paint) and the green area (new paint) is a bit rough. If I use the gold paint-pen, I'd be afraid that the paint would bleed a bit in way of the green/red rough transition. It might work OK, but I'm too chicken to try it.

Instead, I might check my local Michael's craft store to see if they have some thin rub-on gold striping.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

How about pin-striping tape?


----------



## tjcruiser

Yeah ... kind of what I was thinking. Good call to consider an auto parts / detailing store, though. Thanks!

I'm looking for a gold in a matte finish ... sort of like a satin gold paint. I'm not looking for a shiny foil-gold tape, if you know what I mean.

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the pin-striping tape comes in all colors, so I'm guessing you'd find something that fits with your plan.


----------



## tjcruiser

For you guys that knocked me around an a back-alley, swinging a few punches to tell me that I needed some color-matched tenders for my growing 1681 fleet , I have some more happy news to report ...

A baby blue tender to go with my quasi-Comet themed 1681. It's sporting a strip and repaint with that nice Krlyon Bahama Sea top color. I've put a gold pinstripe around the side insert panel, and will try to track down some suitable dry-transfer letters to add a "LIONEL" label to the sides.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

Lookin' very nice TJ. Keep it up.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That looks great TJ, perfect match!  That's a sharp looking rig, looks too good to put on the tracks.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks very much, guys. I appreciate the nice comments. I'm quite pleased with how this "baby Comet" has turned out. It's kind of fun trying out new colors! (No "Alien Green," though, Ed ...)

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Golden Moments ...*

I ordered two sheets of Woodland Scenics Dry-Transfer letters to add "Lionel Lines" text to both sides of my little "Blue Comet" themed tender. Specifically, MG703 Roman R.R. Gold ...

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/MG703/page/1

The sheets come with 6 different font sizes. I chose the 1/8" tall letters for this application. Though each font size comes with several sets of individual letters, there were only four L's, so I needed to purchase two of the WS sheets. (2 x LIONEL LINES has a lot of L's!)

Using a straight edge razor, I cut groupings of same-letters with a margin about 1/32" below the letter. Then, I abut the letter cluster against a row of gentle-stick pre-positioned on the tender. Rub-application of each letter is done with a toothpick. A "Word" printout of the "LIONEL LINES" taped below my actual application area helps to map out the letter spacing.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Badwolf & Arizona RR

Nicey Nice.


----------



## tjcruiser

I agree  !

Many thanks.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That came out really good! :thumbsup:

Are you going to clearcoat it to protect the lettering?


----------



## tjcruiser

Good question! I think if I planned on running the train a lot, I should clearcoat the letters for protection. However, this little loco/tender set is essentially a show piece, so I don't think I'll be clearcoating it at this point.

But ...

If I did clearcoat it at some point, what would you recommend over the Krylon blue paint and dry-transfer decals? Any Krlyon clear rattle-can?

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... I'm probably not the painting expert, you know better than I about paint I think.  My clearcoat is the Krylon clear, I think that's all I have around.

I'd be interested in what you find out about clearcoat, and what is best (and most invisible).


----------



## tjcruiser

Maybe T-Man will chime in. I know he's used Mod Podge stuff to cover decals and the like ... I think that's a brush-on, available in different sheens. I've never used it myself, though. I'd wonder if a brush-on would leave ridges / brush-strokes?

Hmmm ... anyone else have experience here?

TJ


----------



## Badwolf & Arizona RR

One would think that a Krylon top-coat would be compatible with any Krylon color coat. My guess is that you'd want to find out from Woodland Scenics which top-coat their transfer letters are compatible with. If they have a corporate page, there may be an FAQ....

...and here it is, but it appears to be less than useful.

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/information/faqs/category/38

So, a little bit of digging turns up a contact page, complete with clickable links.

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/information/ContactUs

Hope this helps.


But then - there's always the test patch.

Spray some of the blue onto a piece of scrap metal, transfer a spare letter, let set as applicable, and then try the Krylon top-coat - you'll know for sure without using the Junior Comet as a test mule.


----------



## T-Man

The Mod Podge is water base and may leave streaks. If it was stamped you would be set. You may get away with a small square and top coat that. Trial and error.


----------



## NIMT

For clear coats I use Deft, it a super high quality lacquer spray finish.
It's fast drying and works on wood and metal!


----------



## Artieiii

That looks really good, nice job!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup: Now I think "pinky" could use some gold highlights too 
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

B&A -- that's good advice to make a little test sample panel, and try a clear on that ... easy enough to do, and no downside to any flawed results. I think I'll do that.

T -- thanks for the Podge info ... yeah, I thought that was brush-on.

Sean -- I'm saying this from fuzzy memory, but isn't it a no-no to put lacquer on top of a "normal" oil-based paint? I thought I tried that on a sailboat hull years ago, and the underlying oil paint bubble/crinkled up underneath the lacquer. Again, fuzzy memory here.

Art -- Thanks. No "pinky" in my stable, though. T-man has the pinky 259.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Those Tenders look great!:thumbsup:


Too bad you couldn't dremal cut some tabs for the journals.
I wonder why some came without them?


----------



## tjcruiser

Cost, I think, Ed. These Lionel Jr. small locos were Lionel's inexpensive offerings (carry-over from Ives and also Lionel's short-lived Winner Lines.)

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

Earlier in the year, when I was "1681 mainlining", I set aside one extra loco boiler shell and frame for another customized paint scheme. This time, I painted the frame blue, but had some fun polishing and clear-coating the boiler shell, cab, and boiler front. After a stainless steel Dremel brushdown, I used my new "burnishing wheel" to polish the boiler ... it did a nice job of removing the tiny brushstrokes, yielding a satiny metal finish. I sprayed some Rustoleum clear gloss enamel on top of that.

The pieces are shown here not yet tabbed together. I still need to add the copper trim before tabbing everything back up.

I have an O27 motor that needs some cleaning and rewiring. I'm hoping to pop that into this loco.

Once an addict, always an addict, I guess ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Nice job taking out all the brush marks, that's pretty cool! :thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, John!


----------



## tjcruiser

*A Revealing Outfit (for mature audiences, only) ...*

You guys know that I've spent a lot of time down at the local loco strip club. Seedy patrons, and lots of dollar bills slipping away. Well, in the wee hours of the night, I decided to take one of the "entertainers" home with me in her oh-so-revealing outfit. Ohh la la ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks good, I like nudes.


----------



## tjcruiser

Ha ha! Thanks, John. Not quite fully nude. Rustoleum gloss clear enamel on the steel tinplate shell, and airplane dope on the copper and brass trim parts. Hopefully, rust and tarnish will be kept at bay for a long, long time!

TJ


----------



## T-Man

The finish is so OOOOO LA LA! :thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

*Bring Your Dollar Bills ...*

My latest 1681 loco is going "au natural" ... I think I need to build a dance pole, though!

She's sportin' a rebuilt Lionel Jr style motor with e-unit, though this one is from a later-generation 1688, I think. Baldwin style drive wheels.

Enjoy. The CLUB is open 24/7 ... bring your dollar bills! 

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

With the nice polish you got on the bare metal, it looks great! You can really have fun with this stuff, no?


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, John. Much appreciated. But remember ... there's a fine line between fun and insanity!

Last year, I told myself that this clearcoat loco would be my last 1681 restoration. However, the demons continue to haunt me, and I have since picked up another couple of mangy-looking 1681 shells, along with a near-clone 1661. I have one motor all cleaned up / rewired to pop into one shell, and need to track down another Jr motor for the other. I've run out of wheels, though, and repro sets are around $40 a pop. I keep ebay-hunting for junk lots where I can piece together enough scrap bits.

Like I said ... fun ... or madness ... ?!?!!!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

A little of each?  I know a similar feeling when it takes me hours to wire custom lights and then I find out I have to start over!


----------



## 3windowc

TJ-After all the work you went through to make a stud for the gear, I stumbled onto the replacement on Olsen's website, AM-70-S. The gear is AM-70. I just finished a 1681 with a broken gear as you did by grinding off the stud head. Worked out so well I picked up another one with a missing gear.


----------



## tjcruiser

3W,

Thanks. Yeah, the gear can "float" without the stud head, instead held in place OK just by the wheels.

Are you restoring a 1681? Do tell!!!

I ebay bid on an Ives 1661 (precursor) the other day, but lost out. That wasn't you who nabbed it, was it?!? 

TJ


----------



## 3windowc

I saw it but did not bid. Just started on the 3rd 1681. All 3 are 1934 red & black. The last one just came from e-bay, a real rust bucket. I already have it in 30 pieces to strip and repaint. The motor was froze but the wheels turned since the gear was missing. Surprisingly got the wheels off without them crumbling. The communtator was black. Cleaned it and the brushes, gave it a little oil and had the motor running so I consider it a good buy.


----------



## tjcruiser

3W,

Create a thread and post some pics!!! I'd love to shoulder-snoop!

I'm wondering if you've encountered my 1681 nemisis: removing the "sandpipe" wire from the boiler shell, prior to shell strip / repaint. As much as I try to be careful, the ends of the wire, where its bent around the underside of the boiler shell, are very brittle with age, and any attempt to unbend them for removal risks a metal fracture through the wire at that knuckle. I've tried patience, heat, etc. ... but no sure-fire method on my end, as of yet.

You???

(I've resorted to making my own new ones via carefully bent -- and more pliable -- copper.)

TJ


----------



## BWA

Wow, can't believe I read the whole thread. Only took me two days.
Good thread. :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, BWA. I humbly plead addictive insanity!


----------



## BWA

Nice to see someone who is more toast than myself..........


----------



## 3windowc

I have been lucky enough to get them out without breaking. I can ease 1 end out enough to get it past the bottom of the boiler and it rocks enough to get the other side out. I have snapped some on a 259 I did.


----------



## tjcruiser

Do you do house calls?!?


----------



## 3windowc

No time. Been so busy that it has been a week since I even looked at it. I did get the gear & a new pilot truck ordered from Train Tender. Probably wont work on it until spring when I can give it an Easy Off bath and run it through the glass beader in the shed.


----------

