# suspended layout



## Tlauden

well due to space restrictions i cant have a table layout either perminent or one that can be set up when i want it. so im going to do the next best thing i can think of, suspend it from the ceiling using a winch, rope, and some pulley's. im going to try and accomplish this in the basement since the studs are exposed and that makes pulley attachment super easy. i plan on gathering the neccesary supplies this week while im out and about and start construction on it my next day off. im really hoping it will turn out like what i plan and not go horribly wrong any thoughts or ideas? i've never personally seen it done though i've heard OF it before. ill post plenty of pics once i get working

this is something like i wanna get to use as the winch
http://www.harborfreight.com/2000-lb-capacity-geared-winch-5798.html

i think this will "ratchet" up and down it doesnt look like it has the free spool option. anyone agree


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## georgieboytraveler2

Just a thought ===== I have the same situation and got an all electric hoist for 110 volt that powers up and also powers down for about 80 bucks on epay. I mounted it on the garage wall and then set things up for a 4 point lift on the 5x9 layout === a little more explanation the new member board I posted earlier. I don't have any pics of it yet, but will try to post later this week. I also used folding metal horses to fasten under the layout frame.


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## tjcruiser

Tlauden,

The winch idea is fine. I was thinking of a tennis-net type winch before I clicked on your link ... essentially the same sort of a thing.

A couple of factors will be critical to pull this off successfully ...

1. Cabling run to corners and/or midpoints of the layout ... it's important that they all feed into the winch (or common attachment point) at the same rate. That'll work OK if they all run vertically to small pulleys above their lifting point. But you want to avoid the cables running on any angles that vary between lift points.

2. Lightness and stiffness of the layout board. Obviously, you don't want it too heavy. I'm gonna throw out a suggestion that I've made before to others, but one that I've never actually used myself ... so take it with a grain of salt! Make your layout board by gluing up a sandwich of something like 1/4" plywood, 1.5" of styrene foam (pink stuff), and another 1/4" plywood. The foam will separate the skins much like the web of an I-beam, and the resulting panel will be much stiffer than a comparable 3/4" sheet of ply, and yet considerably lighter. Somewhere in the forum, I ran some simple engineering calcs to do an actual stiffness-to-weight comparison ... the sandwich layup has some clear advantages in a floating / lifting setup like you envision.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser

Found the calcs from another thread ...



tjcruiser said:


> If lightweight is important, you can achieve a very stiff and light panel by using thin "skins" (1/4" MDF, for example) fully glued and bonded to BOTH sides of rigid foam, say 2" thick or so. I.e., you're building a structural I-beam of sorts, with the working flanges (the MDF skin) separated away far away from a neutral axis by core or web. It's important that all internall panel-to-panel joints of the foam are glued to each other, too.
> 
> Here's an interested engineering-calc example ...
> 
> A "sandwich" of 1/4" MDF, 2"' foam, and 1/4" MDF has 18-times the stiffness of a single-skin 3/4" sheet of MDF alone ... 18-times!
> 
> A "sandwich" of 1/8" MDF, 2" foam, and 1/8" MDF has 8-times the stiffness of a single-skin 3/4" sheet of MDF alone, at essentially 1/3 the weight!
> 
> So ... go make a sandwich!
> 
> TJ


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## Tlauden

thanks guys, and i do like the sandwich idea, i think i will do this if it makes it 1/3 of the weight right off the bat. i planned at attaching at the four corners and am worried about the center sagging. do you think a quick frame underneath would be worth it or not?


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## Reckers

Tlauden,

I think it would definitely be worth it. When your layout is hanging 100% of the time, it will naturally develop curvature. Putting a couple of 2 x 4's beneath it and running eye-bolts thru them to support your layout will help immensely.

Also....consider this. If you attempt to lift from 4 points simultaneously, you'll have a difficult time of it---your ropes/cables will stretch or change balance and generally be a PITA. Instead, consider trying to lift from two points. Put eyebolts through your overhead beams above all 4 corners as well as the boards beneath the table-surface. Start with the left side and run cable from board corner up, through the overhead eyebolt, across above the left edge to the second left-side eyebolt, and down to the table's other left corner. If you now tug the center of that cable up there between the beams, both left corners will rise in unison. Do the same at the other end and you have two pull-points instead of 4. Find a way to link them securely---a central ring both cables pass through?----and you have one pull-point for all 4 corners. Tug it and all four corners rise in level unison.


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## georgieboytraveler2

My suspended layout weight about 350# and is lifted at 4 points thru a pulley system to a common junction where all 4 aircraft grade cable comes together. I wish I had thought of the idea of using the 2 points, as that sound great, and should keep everything in a level state. I have had to adjust the cables several times to get them to all pull at the same level and time. My table base is 1/2" plywood with a 1x4 frame work, as there are several levels on it and the 1x4 system is adjustable to keep the grades at a uniform %. Under this framework. I installed 2 2x4x10' long under the entire length and equidistant from the sides towards the center. Then I made a large X from corner to corner and basically used where the X crossed the 2x4 under the layout to put long eye bolts thru and then used a piece of 1 1/4" flat steel to go across the 2x4's and the eye bolt went thru it with double locking nuts. I think that the eye bolts were 10' long. Then I used heavy S hooks to fasten the cable to and was able to hook this into the eye = this makes it possible to unhook the cables after it is set on the folding legs or sawhorses and run the cables back up out of the way and cover the eye up with a small building. I also found that I had to add weight to the cable just above the S hook to keep the cable from coiling up and very hard to get back down to hook up. I used lead weights of about 2 or 3 pounds and ran the cable thru them and let them rest on top of the S hook.
I used a powered winch = both up and down = as I found too many of the others didn't have an easy way to lower them except arm strength and I don't trust myself with that. I found it the on ebay, but Harbor Freight I think carries them also and I think it was a 400# capacity with direct lift or 800 with using the pulley and hooking the end back at the power source. 

I will attempt to get some pics loaded up shortly = but several doctor appts come up this afternoon = so maybe the next day or so.


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## tjcruiser

I would suggest NOT lifting from the corners, but rather from points some distance in from the edge, with some cantilever overhang. I.e., if 4'x8' sheet, set up lift points in a rectangle config about 3.75' x 6' ... i.e., about 1' of overhang on each "long" end. The shortened lift span (6' vs. 8') will reduce in-the-air deflections considerably.

Again, all lift cables should run dead-vertical to pulleys, then from there in a PARALLEL path to a common pull cable. If so, the "stroke" or pull-rate on each should be identical, prompty an easy, even lift.

TJ


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## Tlauden

thanks guys on all the help with this, i am getting alot of great ideas on how to do this and i plan on putting alot of them to use, i have everything figured out EXCEPT the pulley system and i believe i have a pretty good idea in mind, tonight when i get home ill do a quick sketch on paint and post it to see if i got the concept right with the two point lifting


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## georgieboytraveler2

*suspended from the ceiling*

I was able to get a few shots of the layout and the pulley/lifting system this afternoon late. Hopefully they will come out decent enough for you to see. I also have hooks that I can use to fasten the eyes together with and then I can release the tension of the cables and the layout is still held in place with the gridwork on the ceiling. I still have some more to load up, but will do them on another post,
Questions or comments welcome, and I will try to answer them.


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## Tlauden

very nice i like the setup! but looking at your cables where they attach to the winch it looks like your using four independent cables? hows that work for you? i was planning on doing reckers suggested but the four independant cables seem lke a simplier setup. 

like i said i know exactly what im going to do for the layout table but am still torn between the cable/pulley system. guess ill get enough supplies for the more detailed setup and see where i end up. im planning on going friday to get some supplies and then go from there hopefully have some pics up by the afternoon 

edit:also what size is your layout and what scale are you running?


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## tjcruiser

GeorgieBoy,

Thanks for posting the pics. That's a beefy winch. I like the way you have your four (or so) cables running into one common coupling, and that common lead tailing into the winch.

I also like the weights on the ends of the tail ends of the cables, so that they have some down-tension when you winch-up without the layout table attached. Clever, there, keeping winch-tension up as needed.

And, finally, the use of the folding sawhorses for tuck-up-out-of-the-way legs seems just perfect. Easy off-the-shelf solution.

Thanks for sharing!

TJ


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## georgieboytraveler2

*suspended system for layout*

I had a few more pics of the system and thought I would try to upload some more tonight = so here we go again with 10 more. (my other sites won't handle more than 10 pics at a time, so I figure the same here) These were all taken at about the same time of day and show things from different angles. Sorry, but I have done little in the way of scenery at this point and my next project will be the changing over to DCC from the block system.

I would want to use heavier cable if I used the 2 point lifting method that was told about earlier, but I still think it might be an easier system to use, but the drawback might be that it won't pull up as close to the ceiling as my 4 point system does. I am easily able to walk under it with a standard 8' ceiling in my garage.


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## tjcruiser

Larry,

Great pics / stuff. Nice control system. Lots of buttons! I really like the way you designed this all to fit within a drawer that lifts with the table. Clever.

In considering a lifting table, we were all talking earlier (above) about the importance of equal "rate of pull" on each of the required lifting cables. You had said that you fiddled with this a bit in the early debugging of your table. Which has me intrigued about the cable runs as shown in pic # 2724 ...










Your cables go from the table up vertically to pulleys, and from there each runs "on a hypotenuse" to a common shackle and common pull to the winch. Seems logical. However ...

As I envision what happens when the winch pulls the common lead and shackle, and the table rises (or lowers), the shackle moves horizontally in space, and the geometry of the "hypotenuse triangle" of each cable changes as the shackle move further away (or closer to) the pulleys. And, as this happens, the rate-of-pull of each of the cables (as it translates to its vertical section) is not the same througout.

I suspect that you realized this, and fiddled with the geometry such that the difference are miniscule and acceptable ... so I'm certainly not attempting to be critical here.

But for anyone considering a lifting system on a new table, I'd suggest re-routing the cables through a different configuration of pulleys such that all of the cable runs feeding into the common shackle are exactly parallel to each other at all times. This will ensure a uniform rate-of-pull on the vertical cable sections.

The crude sketch below gives a fuzzy idea of what I'm thinking. You're looking at the cable run in a horizontal plane up near the ceiling, with the table below shown as a simple rectangle.

Thoughts?

TJ


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## georgieboytraveler2

*raise that table!!*

TJ ===

I was just getting ready to krap out and thought I would take one last look at the emails and came across yours.

You have an extremely good point, and I am not an engineer so it was by trial and error on some of the points. One thing that does enter into the whole thing is that the distance the main line moves is only half of the distance that the lifting lines do, so it was important to move the shackle as close to the motor as I could, thus leaving a longer distance on the lifting cables and so the angle does change, it is very little. The angles are relatively close, because I took the lines from the closest end of the table all the way to the back (where the other pair of lines came up) and then installed the pulley leading back to the shackle. This makes those lines quite a bit longer, but they still lift at the same rate. I didn't think about it, but I could have located those pulleys closer to the outside of the framework which everything mounts on, and that would have made the angles very similar. I didn't turn any of the pictures, but if that one would be rotated 1/4 turn so it would be looking up at the system, it would be easier to visualize. I was going to turn the computer sideways, but found that I could crank my neck enough to check it out
Anyway === good thinking and it was my first try at doing this, so I am open to any suggestions. But being a hard headed old man, I probably won't change it much, if any, as it does seem to work pretty good and I have had quite a few comments from those who have inspected it. For safety purpose, I thought about what I needed to do to be sure it may NOT fall while suspended, I used adjustable hooks to fasten between the eyes on the framework and the eyes on the layout and then released the pressure on the cables and allowed it all to hang from the hooks. Its kind of pain in the a== to get the ladder out to be able to set and remove the hooks, but I feel a bit more secure that way and it doesn't stretch out the steel cable that way.
I need to come up with a better idea for that part ?!?!?!?!?!?! 

I forgot to include a picture of the overseer of this project ==== but not the BOSS!!

The plastic guard around the outside of the table frame has kept several errant locos from meeting the floor ===== especially when the grand kids came to try and run gramps train I had to have it happen once to make me realize that it could and I needed to do something to arrest that!! Picked them up from the local grocery store trash bin and then asked for others when they got thru with them. Also helps to be working there as a maintenance whatever and rather on my own terms and time!! Nice to be retired???? and then work on your own terms!!


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## georgieboytraveler2

Tlauden --- I was just going thru some of the posts this evening and thought I would check and see how you are coming along with your setup? I failed to answer a couple of your questions earlier in that this is an HO gauge layout and is about 5 1/2' wide and 9 1/2' long and weight is around 350#'s at this time. The capacity of the electric winch is at least 800#'s and may be a bit more, I am not sure what the total capacity is - gotta read the statements on the motor base. And forgot to mention that the winch has a 5' extension control cable on it for ease of operation = makes it a whole lot easier to use when it is at waist height to grab.
Since I didn't catch that this was an N gauge site before my rant, I am guessing that you are going to do yours in N?


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## Tlauden

sorry i havent posted for awhile, been pretty busy lol. anyway im slowly gathering all the items i will need to pull off this task. ive been holding out on buying any kind of winch assembly due to the fact i dont know if i want powered or manual  i guess ill have to decide sooner or later though. i gotta hold off on buying some items though because the day i went to the hobby shop i spent a little bit more than i planned on oh well it was worth it ill keep this updated as i accomplish more


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## georgieboytraveler2

I understand that is part of the disease = known as Model Railroading = and last I heard was there was no known cure, so I guess you will have to learn to live with it ==== like many of us do!!!!!!!!!!
Keep us posted!


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## ElSimon

My son had a 4' x 8' HO layout that the only space for it was outside in the carport. I setup a 4 pulley system to raise and lower it. By hand. Not even a crude winch. Here is what we found:
1. Being outside the track oxidyzed fast. It was brass track.
2. It got dusty easily.
3. Even though it was only 4' x 8' my son was too light to raise it up! Now think how that effected him the first time he tried to lower it! I only wish I had a video camera for that show.
4. I used ropes in the four corners. This was sufficient for his layout. But ropes stretch, cables can rust..

I would suggest:
1. Retractable legs. That is a must.
2. A cover. This can be wood or a plastic sheet. Keep the track covered and clean.
3. Don't make it too easy for the kids or grandkids without supervision.
4. Trial and error. Test some ideas and go from there. You can always beef it up where and if you need to.
5. Don't over think it. I do that too often and it takes me 2-3 times as long to do it.
6. Post pictures as you go so we can chime in with help as we see it.

El Simon


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## Big Ed

georgieboytraveler2 said:


> Tlauden --- I was just going thru some of the posts this evening and thought I would check and see how you are coming along with your setup? I failed to answer a couple of your questions earlier in that this is an HO gauge layout and is about 5 1/2' wide and 9 1/2' long and weight is around 350#'s at this time. The capacity of the electric winch is at least 800#'s and may be a bit more, I am not sure what the total capacity is - gotta read the statements on the motor base. And forgot to mention that the winch has a 5' extension control cable on it for ease of operation = makes it a whole lot easier to use when it is at waist height to grab.
> Since I didn't catch that this was an N gauge site before my rant, I am guessing that you are going to do yours in N?


This is a site for all gauges  (or scales) whatever you prefer to call it.


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## tjcruiser

He meant where this thread is posted, Ed ... under the N-scale section.


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## georgieboytraveler2

*Suspended layout*

Thanks TJ, as that is what I meant. My system happens to be in HO, but I support all gauges = my wife wanted N, because she thought it was "cute", until she found out how small it really was and my big fingers just dont' work in that scale very well and neither one of us has eyes that are good enough to work well in N either.
Anyway, for ElSimon = I can understand your problems with having it outdoors under the carport and humidity and all, but I have a big advantage in that I have mine in the garage which is both heated for winter and cooled for summer = if I want to do it. I was fortunate enough to be able to put up a 30 X 30 garage and it has enough room (almost) for my shop and to get my pickup in and I MUST have room for the car belonging to the better half!! Thus, when the layout began to develop, I needed a plan so everything was still inside and I could maintain a layout, even if it isn't very big. So developed the experiment of the suspended layout over the truck = and so far = so good!! I spent in the area of $150 on everything used for the lift = including the winch.
I will be happy to help anyone out that is considering this type of set up that has any questions about doing it.
I will also be posting some HO equipment that I got when pulling apart an incomplete layout as soon as I can make up some pictures of the stuff.
Have a great weekend and GO HAWKS = from the flatlands of Iowa.


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## tjcruiser

Hey Larry (GBT),

I'm quite jealous of the 30x30 heated garage! We have a 2-car with an (unused) high ceiling. Your "suspended stuff" idea is prompting me to finally look "up" and envision all of the possibilities floating right over my head!

Thanks for the inspiration!

TJ


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## georgieboytraveler2

Always glad to help institute a head ache!! It really is not as bad as some make out. I was actually more concerned about the weight capacity for the prestressed rafters that I used in building the garage ( which has taken me some 40 years to acquire!!) and so I did use an extra support to be sure. I'm sure it may stir up some others to "look up" also and perhaps, start 
some on the way to having a layout to work with that doesn't interfere with the normal use of the basement or garage or whatever is available.


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## Tlauden

well due to some issues ive ditched the suspended layout for now, instead im going to use a corner of the basement and try for a smaller layout, going to go 4X6, im hoping that will be enough for a decent N layout ill get pics here shortly, need to run to hardware store tomorrow before work


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## georgieboytraveler2

*Suspended layout*

You should be able to make up a pretty decent layout in that size space. A buddy of mine put together a 3X7 N scale layout and it is really good. He only made it 3' wide so he could reach across it easier, as it is up against a wall in his basement. My suspended layout is 5X9, but I have access all the way around it for ease of reaching the middle of it. Makes it a bit tough to put up scenery for a backdrop tho
Be sure to send construction photos for all to see!!


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## Tlauden

well got the 4x6 layout started, i started a thread about it under the "My Layout" area of the forum


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## 3shorts

My layout is suspended in my garage. I made up 4 block and tackles, 1 for each corner; I raise each end by pulling on 2 ropes at the same time and raise it about 12" then I go to the other end and do the same. I used 3/8" rope for the tackle. My platform is built of 2 !/2" commercial roof insulation which is a heavy weight foam between heavy cardstock, I built this over a 1x4 framework. The entire 4x8 platform can't weigh more than 125 lbs. Very easy to raise and lower. I built saw horses to rest it on when in down position to make it solid and prevent swaying. So far so good!!


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## tjcruiser

Shorts,

Sounds very nice. Start a new thread (HO section or similar) and post some pics and details!

TJ


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## traindriverjd

I am considering putting a layout such as this in my garage. One of my friends has warned me that humidity will be a problem, especially during a Florida rainstorm. He thinks a wet car in the garage will harm layout and equipment. Has anyone ideas about this? Thanks, Jim


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## tjcruiser

I would distinguish water from humidity. You could have a wet car in a dry-environment (low humidity) garage (in Arizona, for example), where the water on the car will quickly evaporate without a significant increase in humidity.

On the other hand, stick that same car/garage in a humid place like FL, and you have a problem. The air gets saturated, and you'd have micro-moisture buildup on the metal parts of your trains. Anything steel would be a worry ... motor parts, wheels, etc.

Ventillation and a dehumidifier (or A/C) would help, but that's an open-ended task to try to do that in an actively used garage.

Note that most plastics and some metals (like brass) wouldn't be inherently harmed by the humidity. The brass might tarnish a bit, but it won't rust, per se, like most non-stainless steels.

Any wood used in the layout is an issue to consider, too ... if there's a huge change in humidity (seasonally), you'd see a significant expansion/contraction of the wood in the layout ... could cause cracks in plaster, scenery, etc.

TJ


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## pmcgurin

For a long time I lived in Pensacola, Florida, and I had an N scale layout in my garage. Some observations:

Track got dirty quickly. Some corrosion on track, which was ordinary Atlas.

Locomotives wore out quickly. Life Like GP38s and Bachmann F9s lasted mere weeks. Kato F3s lasted about a year, then needed a remotoring.

Every nincompoop in my wife's family went in the garage to smoke. I am sure that affected the track with a coating of crud. I started smoking my pipes again, smoking pure Latakia tobacco. Ran the nincompoops out.

Temperature and humidity fluctuated quite a lot. Weather fronts seemed to pass through Pensacola more quickly than anywhere else. 

I think it's a lot of stress on the whole system--track, locos and rolling stock. In my basement in Michigan it's much nicer. Kato locos have lasted the whole seven years we've been here. Track gets dirty, but I have cleaner cars and Goo Gone.

Mainly I run Kato F3s and F7s. Some of their E8/9 models. A few Atlas, and a number of Life Like E8s, because at full throttle the passenger trains light up well and the train isn't racing too fast. No DCC. I think if you used DCC in a Florida garage, it would have a shorter than normal lifespan.


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## traindriverjd

Thanks for the replies. We downsized alot when we moved from Nebraska. This means not a lot of choice in locating a layout. Also, we're renting for now until we know the area better so I want something easy to relocate. The garage or a screened room seem to be my choices. Rolling stock and Locos would be brought inside when not in use. Track and scenery would be affected the most. Bottom line is I don't quite know what I will do.
Jim D


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## 3shorts

traindriver,
I wouldn't worry about it! Just do it.


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## Denuch

I agree with 3shorts do it up brother!!!!!


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## THE TYCO MAN

One thing to remember is that today's autos for HO trains roll, keep them off the layout 'til lowered.


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## flyvemaskin

Kalmbach has a book they published soome time ago by the late John Armstron called,
"18 Taylor Made Model Railroad Track Plans." On page 31 of that book, is a track plan for a suspended 4x8 layout designed by a fellow and called, "The Carlsbad, East Portal & Zenith Railroad." The author did this for an N scale layout, shows all the cabels and pullies in his design. The layout has a lower hidden elevation set of tracks for hidden staging. The track plan is a really nice plan, and I've considered building it myself. If you can find a copy of the book, you can see how this one was designed. It's a fun read at the very least. Amazon may have a copy, or a Bookman's book store. Someone in the forum may have one also, besides me. Mine isn't for sale, but the book is well worth the price if you're interested.


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## Big Ed

georgieboytraveler2 said:


> Always glad to help institute a head ache!! It really is not as bad as some make out. I was actually more concerned about the weight capacity for the prestressed rafters that I used in building the garage ( which has taken me some 40 years to acquire!!) and so I did use an extra support to be sure. I'm sure it may stir up some others to "look up" also and perhaps, start
> some on the way to having a layout to work with that doesn't interfere with the normal use of the basement or garage or whatever is available.




And I all ways thought "normal" basements were built for the train layouts. 
What else are they good for besides a place for the furnace and laundry area?

OK, I can see that garage's are built for cars.
Though my 2 car oversize with loft, never had a car in it since I lived here.
Mine is for the boat and other "toys", and is more like a workshop.

She has the house, I have the garage and basement.:thumbsup:


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## ianb26

flyvemaskin said:


> Kalmbach has a book they published soome time ago by the late John Armstron called,
> "18 Taylor Made Model Railroad Track Plans." On page 31 of that book, is a track plan for a suspended 4x8 layout designed by a fellow and called, "The Carlsbad, East Portal & Zenith Railroad." The author did this for an N scale layout, shows all the cabels and pullies in his design. The layout has a lower hidden elevation set of tracks for hidden staging. The track plan is a really nice plan, and I've considered building it myself. If you can find a copy of the book, you can see how this one was designed. It's a fun read at the very least. Amazon may have a copy, or a Bookman's book store. Someone in the forum may have one also, besides me. Mine isn't for sale, but the book is well worth the price if you're interested.


Been reading these posts with interest, as that is what I'm organising at the moment. The layout of the wires and pulleys is my main problem at the moment.

I'm in Australia and I tried to get that particular book from my local library, but with no luck. However, the main State Library in Melbourne does have a copy, but it will cost me AU$16.00 to have it sent to my local library, and then I can't take it home, so would have to read it there! Not a good idea. The only other way is to go to the State Library, but I still can't take it home. So the time, petrol (gas to USA), parking etc. would cost almost the same, if not more, as sending it locally. Even going by train takes an hour (I'm 45KM from the CBD).

Could I ask the unthinkable by saying would it be possible to have a copy of the page/s concerned? 

I await the "kick in the backside" for requesting this. hwell:

Just hoping someone can help.

BTW My layout is HO

Just realized this was in N scale. But this is where Goggle sent me.


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## DonR

ianb26 said:


> Been reading these posts with interest, as that is what I'm organising at the moment. The layout of the wires and pulleys is my main problem at the moment.
> 
> I'm in Australia and I tried to get that particular book from my local library, but with no luck. However, the main State Library in Melbourne does have a copy, but it will cost me AU$16.00 to have it sent to my local library, and then I can't take it home, so would have to read it there! Not a good idea. The only other way is to go to the State Library, but I still can't take it home. So the time, petrol (gas to USA), parking etc. would cost almost the same, if not more, as sending it locally. Even going by train takes an hour (I'm 45KM from the CBD).
> 
> Could I ask the unthinkable by saying would it be possible to have a copy of the page/s concerned?
> 
> I await the "kick in the backside" for requesting this. hwell:
> 
> Just hoping someone can help.
> 
> BTW My layout is HO
> 
> Just realized this was in N scale. But this is where Goggle sent me.


I don't have the book, but surely one of our members might and could scan the
pertinent pages and either post them or obtain the Aus. mailing address.
That would be a nice gesture.

Don


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## traction fan

The sandwich idea is something I used on my layout. I went a bit further an made a "box girder" by gluing an end piece of 1/4" luan plywood on the outsides where the "bread crust" would be on our "sandwich". Using luan and styrofoam I built a beam a little bigger than a 2x2 piece of lumber. It weighs practically nothing and can support my 265Lb. body. One of the 4'x16" modules of my layout can be lifted from the end with one finger, yet I can sit or stand on it without harm. I named the material "light wood".
My layout does not need to be lifted as it is a bookshelf railroad, cantilevered from the wall of my garage. This leaves plenty of storage space, and no layout legs underneath.
It also allows my wife to still park her car in the garage.
One of the best layout lifting schemes I've seen is in the book "Creative Layout Design" by John Armstrong. The man's 12'x20' HO scale layout was built like a plate girder bridge; with a central double sided backdrop forming a very rigid I-beam to prevent sag. This could be a vertical "sandwich". If all the bench work was made of "light wood" Box girders; and the scenery of extruded foam the entire layout would be quite light.
Good Luck!


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## Cycleops

traction fan we need pics.


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## Gwpapa

ianb26, I have take a few photo of my pulley system. You ask in another post but it was off topic so i found you here. My shop is a total mess so overlook that. I already had the winch and 12v power supply so all i had to buy was the pulleys and rope. You will also see some extra rope at the ceiling where i tie off the layout when i pull it up.


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## ianb26

Thanks for that Gwpapa.

I think I can adapt mine to something similar. I have eyehooks in each corner so I think I can use your idea with the chain. I can use D shackles to connect to eyebolts, then probably D shackles to connect to the pulley ropes/wires to the chain, then to my hand winch.

I will probably try that before I get too much weight on the board and see how it goes.

In the meantime I would be most interested if anyone has access to the book mentioned above. I apologise in advance if I'm breaking the forum rules requesting copies of the relevant pages from the book. If any one wants to send a private message re my email address that's fine.

Thanks again.


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## traction fan

*Book you wanted*

I called the publisher of "18 Tailor Made Track Plans" by John Armstrong. Bad news, It's out of print, and they don't have a copy. More bad news. Anyone who copied the article and sent it to you would be breaking U.S.(and maybe international) copyright laws, not just forum rules.
Possible solution. They recommended checking amazon.com, bn.com, abebooks.com, harvestbooks.com, or alibris.com for a used copy. The publisher is Kalmbach. (kalmbach.com Tel.# (262)-796-8776 exten.421. they are the same company that publishes Model Railroader magazine. I don't know if you are a subscriber, but if not, I highly recommend becoming one. Not just for the excellent current magazine, but for online access to every issue going back 75 years. This is a treasure trove of info about all aspects of our hobby. Unfortunately it would not include the book you want; but it might have other articles on suspended railroads.
You mentioned a long road trip to a library, that had the book. After phoning to make sure it's there, you could go there and make a photocopy in the library.

Good Luck.

Traction fan


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## ianb26

Hi Traction Fan,

I managed to get a copy of the book from my local train hobby shop. The article was just what I was after! 

All I have to do now is wait for our unusually warm autumn (28C today), to cool down and get up in the roof and mount the fixings.


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## traction fan

*Suspended layout lightweight?*

Ianb26;

While waiting for the weather to cool off, you might want to consider this. Every pound of weight you build into your layout has to be lifted every time you need to get it out of the way.
Therefore, the lighter the better. While we might want it light, it still has to be very rigid, to keep from sagging when suspended. John Armstrong's design incorporates a "bridge beam" in the form of the center backdrop.
I suggest making the backdrop from two pieces of Masonite, or MDF board, one glued to either side of a 1-1/2" thick piece of styrofoam. With 1"x2" pine framing around all four sides, this beam will be extremely rigid and strong, yet very lightweight. The flat parts of the layout could be built the same way, saving more weight. Another way would be to use hollow core doors as they are built much the same way. You might also consider some sort of counterweight system.(bricks?) That will make the layout easy to lift and make a winch unnecessary.

Just a thought. Though my layout does not have to be moved up and down, it is built with the styrofoam sandwich construction.

Hope that helps you out;

Traction Fan


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## ianb26

Hi Traction Fan,

Thanks for your comments, however I don't think there is any problem with the framework as it is constructed from 45mm x 20 mm pine with a 7mm ply baseboard. I'm certain I won't have any problems with "flexing".

I have attached a couple of pics of the framework.

BTW. I DIDN'T REALISE WHEN I FIRST MADE MY POST IT WAS IN THE *N* GAUGE FORUM. MAYBE SOMEN ONE COULD SHIFT MY FIRST POST AND SUBSEQUENT REPLIES TO THE *HO* GAUGE FORUM.

THANKS


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## traction fan

*Box girder pics.*

As requested by Cycleops( long ago) here are pictures of a lightwood girder and the finished girder. This one is a 2x2 and much lighter than regular lumber;and incredibly strong for its weight. The "sandwich table top,discussed earlier, is simply a wider version. QUOTE=traction fan;310297]The sandwich idea is something I used on my layout. I went a bit further an made a "box girder" by gluing an end piece of 1/4" luan plywood on the outsides where the "bread crust" would be on our "sandwich". Using luan and styrofoam I built a beam a little bigger than a 2x2 piece of lumber. It weighs practically nothing and can support my 265Lb. body. One of the 4'x16" modules of my layout can be lifted from the end with one finger, yet I can sit or stand on it without harm. I named the material "light wood".
My layout does not need to be lifted as it is a bookshelf railroad, cantilevered from the wall of my garage. This leaves plenty of storage space, and no layout legs underneath.
It also allows my wife to still park her car in the garage.
One of the best layout lifting schemes I've seen is in the book "Creative Layout Design" by John Armstrong. The man's 12'x20' HO scale layout was built like a plate girder bridge; with a central double sided backdrop forming a very rigid I-beam to prevent sag. This could be a vertical "sandwich". If all the bench work was made of "light wood" Box girders; and the scenery of extruded foam the entire layout would be quite light.
Good Luck![/QUOTE]


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## traction fan

*Lets try this again, with pictures?*



traction fan said:


> As requested by Cycleops( long ago) here are pictures of a lightwood girder and the finished girder. This one is a 2x2 and much lighter than regular lumber;and incredibly strong for its weight. The "sandwich table top,discussed earlier, is simply a wider version. QUOTE=traction fan;310297]The sandwich idea is something I used on my layout. I went a bit further an made a "box girder" by gluing an end piece of 1/4" luan plywood on the outsides where the "bread crust" would be on our "sandwich". Using luan and styrofoam I built a beam a little bigger than a 2x2 piece of lumber. It weighs practically nothing and can support my 265Lb. body. One of the 4'x16" modules of my layout can be lifted from the end with one finger, yet I can sit or stand on it without harm. I named the material "light wood".
> My layout does not need to be lifted as it is a bookshelf railroad, cantilevered from the wall of my garage. This leaves plenty of storage space, and no layout legs underneath.
> It also allows my wife to still park her car in the garage.
> One of the best layout lifting schemes I've seen is in the book "Creative Layout Design" by John Armstrong. The man's 12'x20' HO scale layout was built like a plate girder bridge; with a central double sided backdrop forming a very rigid I-beam to prevent sag. This could be a vertical "sandwich". If all the bench work was made of "light wood" Box girders; and the scenery of extruded foam the entire layout would be quite light.
> Good Luck!


[/QUOTE]
Second try to post photos.


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## traction fan

*Lightwood pics.*



Cycleops said:


> traction fan we need pics.


Cycleops;

Here are photos of the basic box girder(4-sided "sandwich) and a section of my layout that uses the lightwood idea in the arches.


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