# Turn outs comparison



## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Looking for thoughts or suggestions on the layout of turnouts for a three track main. We will have approximately an 11' straight run where we all three tracks run parallel and would like to be able to switch the trains any of the tracks. The attached drawing is two ways we are looking at one will include crossings one will not. We see both advantages & disadvantages with each lay out. Our concerns will be ease of smooth operations in the turn outs and wiring on a DCC system. In both cases the switches are #6 and in the one example the crossings are 19 degrees

Thank you,
Mark


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

The version NOT using the double-crossovers is more versatile and can be simpler to wire.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree with FCwilt. The 2nd configuration would offer better
operational convenience.

Proto railroads in many situations similar to this would use 
a 'slip switch', whereby the train goes in a straight line from the
lower to the upper track running thru the turnouts as if they
were crossings.

A slip switch also allows the user to chose any one of the 
tracks in the path.

Not sure that those turnouts are
available where you are.

Don


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Thank you fcwilt & Don we will be going with the your suggestions. The bench work is almost complete (hopefully this coming Saturday) and the track was delivered today. We picked up the Peco code 83 flex track for the layout with #6 Peco turnouts.

Again thanks for the prompt reply.

Mark


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Peco is bringing out a slip switch in the Code 83 Streamline series - that would make for smoother track work but I don't know when they are going to be available.


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Thank you for the update on the slip switches. 

Attached is the beginning of the layout. We are working on a triple track main line, the two outer lines are plain loops the two inner loops is a single twice around. The red portion of the track is elevated up to 3" where it crosses the lower track. We are still trying to decided exactly how to set the yard in the middle with some of the ideas gleamed from another thread on M.T.F about yards.

The layout is being built on a 12' x 6' top with radius' between 24" and 30". The drawing shows sectional track but is is actually being built with all flex track, was having trouble using flex track in the computer program.

Thanks,
Mark


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Interesting layout for continuous running.

But there is no provision for switching or
even a track to 'park' cars.

Is this for some special display?

Don


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Good morning Don,

Layout is not for anything special, just haven't decided on or even know what to do with the available space inside the loops. That is where the yard will eventually wind up. I have looked at the "yard" thread trying to get some ideas. Obviously there is a lot more work to be done on it. When we picked up the track & switches we ordered several extra of both left & right turnouts & lots of extra flex track, just a matter of installing them.

Mostly likely down the middle length wise would be some sort of scenery break that would leave approximately 21/2 feet from either long edge to the middle to reach in if there was any sort of derailment to deal with. That will leave me with two areas to set up, one probably a working yard the other side is still up for grabs.

Thanks again, comments & suggestions are always welcomed.

Mark


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Have you looked at any of the classic layout design books?

- Track Planning for Realistic Operation

- 101 More Track Plans for Model Railroaders

There is a lot of things to consider before purchasing track and laying it down.

I spent over a year designing my layout, reading books, cogitating, revisiting the design again and again, imaging operations.

Once I was satisfied that it was what I wanted only then did I order anything.

Now my layout is a bit more complex then yours and I sprang for the CAD program 3rdPlanIt. Why? Because in addition to the fairly common 3D view mode it also allow "running" trains in 3D. This allowed me to test out my ideas and verify that all would look and work as planned.

Don't rush - nothing will frustrate you more then looking at your partially complete layout and wishing you had done things differently.


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

fcwilt

Thank you for the well thought out response. I have not looked at either of those books, but have read each of the Atlas books cover to cover several times over the past few months, that is where some of my ideas for layouts came from. Have also been trying to look at several forums, many layout sites and visiting local train shops for ideas and the suggestions offered.

With some soul searching as much as I like some of the beautiful layouts with all the scenery and detail, I know with 60+ hour work weeks I currently do not have the time or ambition to undertake those tasks. (Only 4 years till retirement then maybe). After much debate rather than be paralyzed with indecision I thought it would be better to build a basic layout to get started and see if I still enjoy it as much as I did many years ago. For now I hope to run a few trains with our 4 year old grandson. Hopefully in a few years we can build a bigger and much more elaborate layout together, that way it will be his layout as much as mine & I would expect he will appreciate it even more if he is part of the build.

That said I will continue to look, listen and read as much as I can for ideas and inspiration but I would suspect that there will always be something to tweak or expand upon.

Thank you again for your thoughts & ideas

Mark


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Here is a very short video to show what I was talking about when I mentioned that I could "run" trains in the 3D view of 3rdPlanIt to verify operations and such.

This video is just a overview:

https://db.tt/hSV2mx1M


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

It is amazing what you can do with the computer programs. Must have a fairly long learning curve.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

It does have a learning curve the is greater then most of the other layout CAD programs out there but part of that is due to the fact there is does so much more.

In the sectional track mode placing a piece of track is pretty much like all the other programs.

Its when you work in the "flex" track mode that you encounter the advanced features that take a while to learn.

But even then simple things are simple. 

To draw an oval of track takes four operations. 

1. Draw a circle of track where you want one end of the oval. 

Generally you would place the center of the circle and drag the circle to the desired radius. 

2. Draw another circle at the other end. 

3. Use the "connect" tool to draw the straight track for one side of the oval.

To use that tool you click on one circle, then the other and the program connects them with straight track, insuring that the geometry is correct. 

4. Use the "connect" tool to draw the straight track for the other side of the oval.


"Running" trains is simple enough. The program includes a number of locos and cars - and there is a ton of free stuff on the users forum.

You place a loco on the track, add some cars, switch to 3D and slide the throttle for the loco to "run" the train.

Anything that needs to operate in the real world, operates in the 3D world - turnouts, coupling and uncoupling - even turntables with a little work.


The biggest "problem" with the program is that it, unlike some others that are popular, is NOT free. You can download the program and use it with certain limits but to enable certain essential features you have to pay for it.

These days free programs make it tough for niche products like this one.


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Good morning,

I might take a look at that program, after using two other track layout programs one free SCARM & one paid Rail Modeller for Mac I saw pros & cons with each. What interests me in the one you mention is the flex track, both of the ones I have used seem to work great with sectional but not as well with the flex. Although in fairness to both the issues could be on my end. Any questions I emailed to Rail Modeller was responded to very quickly.

What I had been trying to do was draw easements starting at 36" down to 30" for the bulk of the 1/2 circle for the outer tracks & from 30" down to 24" for the inner loops. After many hours playing on the two programs I thought it would be as productive to actually lay it out on the board, temporarily tacking the track down and run it. If pleased with the result than fasten it more permanently, if not re-do the layout till satisifed. 

I am not at all opposed to purchasing the material, someone worked hard to put it together & should be compensated for their work as long as they stand behind their product.

Thanks again,
Mark


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Here is the page where you can download the trial verison:

http://www.trackplanning.com/download.htm

As I may have mentioned 3rdPlanIt takes a somewhat different approach to designing your layout.

The couple of other programs that I tested supported "flex track" but they did so using lengths of flex track as you might actually buy.

3rdPlanIt supports "flex track" not by placing lengths of track on the screen but rather by drawing the circles, arcs, segments, easements, turnouts, etc as needed to draw your design. 

The program assumes you have the ability to then build the layout using actual flex track, turnouts, etc - cutting and fitting as needed.

The program does allow printing out full size templates, if desired, which can be used to transfer the design to the physical structure on which you will build your layout. 

In my case it was a fairly simple plan, mostly flat. I built a platform for the layout whose surface was 1/2" plywood with 2" rigid foam on top. 

Thus I was able to print out the full size templates, in manageable sections, of the plan and tape the printouts on the foam at the correct locations. Then using a pin I pushed through the paper template, along the printed center line of the track, about every 1" or so. This make holes in the foam which I was able to easily follow as I was laying down the roadbed.


3rdPlanIt, of course, allows drawing simple circles, arcs and straight segments. 

And it has a library of things like turnouts designed to match a wide variety of commercial products.

But for advance design it has easements, splines, helices and more.

And the program tries very hard to allow you to use these elements in a straightforward way.

See attachments:

"Step 1" shows a circle of track and a straight segment of track. 

We want to connect these with an easement.

I selected the "connect with easement" tool, clicked on the straight segment, clicked on the top of the circle.

"Step 2" shows the result.

There are a number of settings which can adjust which determine general characteristics of the easement. You make these settings before using the tool.


And there is much more that 3rdPlanIt can do when it comes to designing your layout.


In addition to the basic layout plan I also included the design of the actual wooden framework that I would have to build.

Using the dimensions and angles displayed on printouts of the plan I was able to build the framework without a lot of trial and error.

See attachments:

This sort of thing is optional, to be sure, but it is there if you want it.


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## Mako2 (Oct 16, 2014)

Hi Fcwilt,

I wrote to 3rdPlanIt with several questions about the program such as using it on a Mac & items that are available in the track library. Randy replied quickly informing me writes the program on a MB Pro, under BootCamp, it can be used on a Mac running crossover. I currently do not have Crossover or Parallels installed but will still consider the program

Thank you again for your very through explanation of the program it has peaked my interest. Sorry for the slow response, work sent me to a project in Canada for a few days, just drove in today.

Mark


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