# The final blow and death rattle of tmcc



## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

:rippedhand: The news out of York on Friday morning was an announcement that beginning next month, Lionel plans to cease operations of The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. The reason given for the decision is that ERR is not a big enough money maker for Lionel to justify continuing that consumer endeavor and in the future will make tmcc boards available only to Atlas and 3rd Rail.
Apparently, it seems that under the current plan even authorized Lionel repair techs such as this board's GRJ will no longer have access to tmcc boards for customer repairs or upgrades.
So, will this decision negatively impact you in our beloved hobby?


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Yes. I've already been turned off by all proprietary stuff from both mth and lionel. It demotivated me to do much with LCS programming even (although I've done something). I stopped buying any new engines. And pretty much decided at some point to get out of it and maybe into HO or try DCC retrofits on the larger engines. But I don't have the change for it right now. Certainly this kind of thing from lionel just underscores what I perceive to be problems in this end of the model train market.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

While I lament this, I don’t think it will have a direct impact on me. I have one ERR equipped loco, a Hiawatha Baltic F7 from Weaver that GRJ converted for me. I think it is unlikely that in the future I will acquire an engine that would not already be Legacy. 

Is GRJ bringing home a car load of ERR kits?


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

I wish to they would get back to the postwar manufacturing style and completely abandon the circuit boards of today. I was never a TMCC person because of the expense and I feel there is too much to go wrong with the circuit boards of today.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't see where this economic decision by Lionel will affect the operation of my layout.

Bill


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

_So does this mean we won't be able to order directly from electricrr.com ? I thought Lionel and ERR just had an agreement, This sounds like Lionel bought them... I'm confused....

While I like the LC+ stuff in my book this puts another point in the MTH column... At least they seem to be consistent in the engine hardware.... _


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2018)

It very well may result in the availability of Legacy components. Now that would be a good thing for the hobby.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> It very well may result in the availability of Legacy components. Now that would be a good thing for the hobby.


Lionel made Legacy components available to everyone a few weeks ago. Not Railsounds but receivers and motor drivers. The problem is the later Legacy is programmed to be engine specific. With one exception they require a speed sensor on the motor. Installing a sensor on a motor that doesn't have one is extremely difficult. You could use their new back emf board but then loose the ability to lash up with other Legacy engines. Plus they will have to offer it in kit form with all the required wire harnesses and interfaces to things like lights and smoke units. I don't see the average hobbiest investing in connectors and tools to do an installation. 
The beauty of ERR was the ease of installation along with the documentation. 

This decision is short sighted and makes no sense. If they believe more will buy their already overpriced product I believe the opposite will be true. MTH making PS2/3 upgrade kits available has in no way prevented me from buying more of their engines if its a prototype of something I am looking for.

Pete


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## Scotie (Sep 27, 2013)

Perhaps its finally time to abandon these proprietary systems in 3-rail and embrace DCC as the rest of the world has done.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

well for lionel it might be a smart move monetary wise in todays market.

now for the person that has the initiative it just might be the door opening again to fulfill a market that seems to have marketability by just a few here and on the other forum unhappy with this decision to close err down to the consumer.

we have some very smart folks in the repair end of this that could create a new market for themselves if they so decided to do so.
yes it would be a lot of work to create a new product and maybe just maybe they would do it even better and create such a market that it ate into all current companies wanting you to buy the latest greatest.

I see this as an opportunity for someone with the initiative to feel the water out and see if a market is there and if it is a financial gain for the wallet.

on a secondary thought and this is really out there but with the advent of newer and newer technology what if instead of a hands on layout and buying all items you created a virtual reality utilizing a pc and other items and setup a rail empire of any size you wanted all within the confines of a desktop/laptop pc the possibilities are endless and is not out of the realm of actually becoming reality.

think about it 100 years ago we didn't have pc's internet self driving cars and yet today we do so someone had the foresight to create it and made a big pile of money too.

maybe someone here will be the next JLC of a really modern era!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> It very well may result in the availability of Legacy components. Now that would be a good thing for the hobby.


Not a chance Brian, that was another question I asked. There is zero chance that Lionel will turn the current Legacy electronics loose. While you can buy the older Legacy TMCC receiver and the motor control board, getting sounds is problematic. Also, you have to buy the motherboard and then fabricate all the cables yourself to create an upgrade. As Pete points out, you also have to install the encoder on the drive motor as well.

It's certainly possible to "build" a Legacy locomotive upgrade if you have the time and money, but it will end up costing almost as much as a Legacy locomotive! I have put together one Legacy locomotive upgrade, and it took a lot of time to hand fabricate all the cables, etc. I know I won't be offering that as an upgrade option, I don't see the possibility of making more than about $5/hr doing the upgrade.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

However I look at it this can't be good news for anybody - except possibly the corporate finance bean counters looking to make Lionel's bottom line look marginally better (or, maybe just as likely, wring something extra out of the return on the large historic capital injection that kept Lionel afloat). 

In that process they are alienating customer and aftermarket support, including mine, and probably sending the overall financial results further south. It just seems stupid to me to cause significant collateral damage over being dissatisfied with a $5,000 component of profit. 

I should have seen this coming when ERR's prices were hiked for no obvious reason. I now officially join the ranks of those who regard said bean counters as the prime source of Lionel's recent series of disappointing ideas and products.  :thumbsdown: :smilie_daumenneg: What this portends for the present and future of Lionel's business and the Lionel-based segment of the 3rail O market generally I don't like to think. 

Forgive me if this is a dumb question  but I thought all the TMCC code was open source so that if someone wanted to, they could use it in producing a new, non-Lionel range of TMCC components? I guess the sound files would be an issue; Lionel has certainly protected Legacy sound sets, which have never been available to Atlas or 3rd Rail much less the likes of us. I also guess that the start-up cost of producing an inventory would be disproportionate to the short-term return. But in that respect I'm just counting beans (that don't exist yet).


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

ogaugeguy said:


> :rippedhand: The news out of York on Friday morning was an announcement that beginning next month, Lionel plans to cease operations of The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. The reason given for the decision is that ERR is not a big enough money maker for Lionel to justify continuing that consumer endeavor . . .
> 
> . . . So, will this decision negatively impact you in our beloved hobby?


I bet ERR made more money for Lionel than Megatracks did.

No impact for me whatsoever. I'm perfectly happy to play with my conventionally operated toy trains.

Pete


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> I wish to they would get back to the postwar manufacturing style and completely abandon the circuit boards of today. I was never a TMCC person because of the expense and I feel there is too much to go wrong with the circuit boards of today.



I hear what you're saying, but because of TMCC, Legacy and DCS my dad and I dove head first into 3 rail O. We absolutely love command control and the sounds that electronics allow. If O scale dropped electronics and went back to postwar style with AC motors, we'd leave the hobby.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> :rippedhand: The news out of York on Friday morning was an announcement that beginning next month, Lionel plans to cease operations of The Electric Railroad Company, effectively ending the market for TMCC upgrade kits. The reason given for the decision is that ERR is not a big enough money maker for Lionel to justify continuing that consumer endeavor and in the future will make tmcc boards available only to Atlas and 3rd Rail.
> Apparently, it seems that under the current plan even authorized Lionel repair techs such as this board's GRJ will no longer have access to tmcc boards for customer repairs or upgrades.
> So, will this decision negatively impact you in our beloved hobby?


No, because I operate O in conventional only and still have all the sounds I want. It's also trouble-free. It seems that Lionel's future becomes more questionable each month.

My interest is shifting to N, in which the layout will be all DCC. :laugh: :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Wow... I just sent a unit off to be upgraded with EER/TMCC. 

It is difficult to keep my head up about Lionel. So many bad decisions and quality problems in the last couple of years. Where will this end up???


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It would be possible for Lionel to offer a type of universal Legacy upgrade kit if they chose. You can now buy outright, without an exchange, BEMC and RCDR boards which are the equivalent of the old R4LC and Cruise M back emf boards. I have a set that I may be trying out in a few weeks. They use smaller connectors than the old modular boards. I am waiting for the parts to make those now.
The prices are not much higher than ERR's. 
The BEMC motor driver does not require a sensor on the motor. Lionel would have to put together all the parts along with instructions to make this viable. Who knows, after the outcry they might.

Pete


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

As an added thought, I wonder how much of an effect, if any, Lionel's decision to cease ERR operations and no longer offer TMCC replacement boards will have on future 3rd Rail Sunset Model's sales and offerings? While Lionel Legacy engines are pricey, at least they'll be able to be serviced but when an almost equally high priced TMCC 3rd Rail Sunset engine fails, what recourse will there be for that engine's owner? Relegate it to the role of an expensive shelf queen or delicate but pricey doorstop? Might this decision mark the beginning of the end for the relatively small 3rd Rail Sunset engine offerings???
I wonder when or even_ if_ anyone from 3rd Rail Sunset Models will chime in on this topic and what they might say about this revelation?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> As an added thought, I wonder how much of an effect, if any, Lionel's decision to cease ERR operations and no longer offer TMCC replacement boards will have on future 3rd Rail Sunset Model's sales and offerings? . . . Might this decision mark the beginning of the end for the relatively small 3rd Rail Sunset engine offerings???


I hope not but it depends on the ability of 3rd Rail to get the components from Lionel, which Lionel said they'd continue supplying. I assume that 3rd Rail have a stockpile but sound has always been the chief difference between 3rd Rail's operating features and Lionel's and I can't see Lionel letting them or Atlas access Legacy sound/components. 

Incidentally, 3rd Rail has never used Lionel smoke units but get their TMCC-compatible ones from somewhere.

And BTW, Jon Z. has gone into print on the OGR forum explaining his take on the demise of ERR as a consumer supply outlet. I have great respect for Jon but I find it difficult to accept extenuation of Lionel's decision.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Wood said:


> ....
> 
> It is difficult to keep my head up about Lionel. So many bad decisions and quality problems in the last couple of years. Where will this end up???


Agreed. If we were writing a make-believe story, we couldn't make this stuff up!!!  Yet here we have Lionel's executive management doing that for us in real life. AND they get paid to do it. 

David


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think folks are overly panicking on this -- although I don't like it either overall. But there are other options in the market and if there's a significant enough interest, someone will offer even more solutions. Perhaps in that way, "it's a good thing". So I can think of 3 options right now: DCS upgrade, Blue Rail, and of course some kind DCC "large amp" motor controller. Pros and cons each, but options. A distant 4th appears to be various homebrew controllers some have managed to put together.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Fabforrest said:


> Is GRJ bringing home a car load of ERR kits?


He can probably design a better one himself, if it comes to it. 

I wish someone would.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It appears that Lionel has put me out of the Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator business. Without TMCC upgrades, there won't be sufficient volume to justify trying to get those boards made. In order to get a reasonable price, I have to have a fairly large quantity of boards in a run, and with no realistic view to recovering even the build price, I'm not going to be ordering any boards.

It was a nice run while it lasted...


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## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

Severn, the options available require abandonment of the current platform. DCS, not for me, I am not in the market for another control system plus the expense of additional boards to replace the existing TMCC boards. Same for the others you mentioned. I went with TMCC and ERR for a single compatible platform. Now that platform no longer exists. Probably the current inventory will float around on the secondary market for a while. Perhaps that secondary market will get larger for a while as some abandon the TMCC platform for the options you suggested. Either way Lionel has made a move to render the platform obsolete. This act will have an impact on my future with the hobby.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Folks, down deep we all knew that any given toy/model train with wiz-bang electronics would always have a start-date and an end-date in terms of serviceability. In comparison, how many times have we casually talked about the number of DECADES that pre-war and post-war "conventional" trains were (are) still running? AND the ease by which they could still be repaired?

The technology treadmill can be brutal sometimes. But the saddest part of THIS situation -- at least as it currently stands -- is NOT that the technology has become obsolete. Because it really hasn't. *Rather this is an obvious and arbitrary decision to accelerate the TMCC/ERR technology obsolescence by Lionel's current executive management team who I've called out for YEARS as not being "train guys".* They could just as easily sell widgets instead of trains, and this is the kind of decision that gets made by widget-makers -- not train guys who would tend to be much more in touch with their consumers.  

Sadly, Lionel's C-level execs often don't even take the time to regularly shake hands with the buying public at York. Compare that to Mike Wolf of MTH, who I've spoken with at 90% of the York shows I've attended across three decades. He doesn't "need" to be there. I think he actually WANTS to be there. That's the difference... right there. 

I'm sad to see this decision, but honestly can't say I'm _surprised_ to see it, given the nature of the players calling the shots and holding the purse-strings at Lionel these days.  This time, however, I believe they've grossly miscalculated the number of enthusiasts who are gonna complain for a week or two, then turn around and pony up big bucks to buy the newest locomotives in the latest catalogs. There are indeed some folks out there who would just as soon leave this segment of the hobby before they do that. Just ask the number of dealers at York last week who heard potential buyers admit they already have more trains than they deserve to own!  

David


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

This just re-enforces my decision to cut Lionel out. I'll buy whatever I can get at train shows, but nothing new. I'm not a fan of DCS nor do I want to invest in all the crap I would have to buy to run it though I would run MTH engines conventionally and I have my eye on some Williams engines that have True Blast Plus.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“It appears that Lionel has put me out of the Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator business.”

Sadly, collateral damage. 

The Legacy engines I have on pre order now are the last engines I will buy. I will voluntarily “fix” myself at the technology level I am currently at. 

This is not the first time I have done something like this. A couple of years ago Apple walked away from their industry leading photography app Aperture. Eventually, Apple will do something in the MacOS to break it and at that point I will stop upgrading software and hardware. 

I have the layout looking pretty good and running pretty well right now. I don’t need to charge off in a new direction. 

Just hoping these new engines arrive in working order. My last new purchase, the brass hybrid was perfect and on time. It can be done.


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

This just in from Lionel customer service. While not directly related to the ERR issue, I thought I'd pass this on. I had written to Lionel several weeks ago about the ZW-L, asking whether or not it is UL-Listed as none of the literature mentions it. Being an insurance geek, that seemed a little odd to me, so I sent an email to them, and this is what I received back from them this morning:

"John,

Our apologies – the ZW-L is actually ETL listed rather than UL listed (this is just another universally recognized listing service). At this time, the ZW-L will not appear on the ETL website as we have temporarily terminated the listing as we will not be producing another run for quite some time. However, all existing ZW-Ls are considered to be ETL listed. This information comes direction from our senior electronics engineer.

Thank you,


Katie"


John


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Add to this post the info from the Mogul fiasco... that Lionel has lost their high end tech (again) and Dean is doing repairs himself. The freaking wheels are off the wagon at that place and frankly, I don't see the company lasting another year or two at this pace.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Volphin said:


> Add to this post the info from the Mogul fiasco... that Lionel has lost their high end tech (again) and Dean is doing repairs himself. The freaking wheels are off the wagon at that place and frankly, I don't see the company lasting another year or two at this pace.


Given all that's been happening recently, that's precisely why a wave of uneasiness hit me when Dave Olson mentioned there'd be no additional AFT add-on passenger cars to complete the train in the next two Lionel catalogs. Who KNOWS what the landscape of things will look like in 12-24 months? 

Never before have I been so ready to just enjoy the trains I currently own, and get off the merry-go-round of buying new Lionel stuff. Last month I grabbed the skeleton log cars I purchased 8-10 years ago, and they're FAR superior to the logging disconnects Lionel delivered last year which aren't even in the same category.

There's a lot going on in Lionel-land's executive suite these days that just doesn't sit well with me.

David


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

This will not affect or impact my enjoyment of the hobby at all. I've never used or had installed any ERR parts. But, if I decide to upgrade any of my few conventional locomotives, I'd go to DCS ProtoSound 3.0. I would have anyway.

Technology moves at a fast pace, although much slower in the O gauge world. This development shouldn't be a surprise. It's been a while now since Lionel announced they would no longer produce the TMCC system because the parts to make them were no longer available. ERR is just the latest shoe to drop as Lionel continues with Legacy and Bluetooth. 

Hang onto your tiaras, guys! Five years from now there will be some other kind of system to operate our trains. Ten years from now they'll probably have some kind of chip we tape to our foreheads and all we have to do is _think_ what we want our trains to do!



gunrunnerjohn said:


> .......It's certainly possible to "build" a Legacy locomotive upgrade if you have the time and money, but it will end up costing almost as much as a Legacy locomotive! I have put together one Legacy locomotive upgrade, and it took a lot of time to hand fabricate all the cables, etc. I know I won't be offering that as an upgrade option, I don't see the possibility of making more than about $5/hr doing the upgrade.


John, just organize a protest outside the Lionel headquarters and demand $15 an hour! _#Occupy Lionel_


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

I'm new to the command-control world, having just added DCS this winter. 

The reasons I chose the MTH system over Lionel were:

1: I already own 2 MTH premier locos
2: I don't own any TMCC-equipped locos
3: Mike Wolf is selling the conversion kits, enabling someone to take an older non-DCS MTH loco and bring the electronics up-to-date at a fraction of the cost of a brand-new engine. 

I'm sure the market will respond to this news, and someone will produce something that works, provided there's enough demand for it so they can do it profitably. 

Ultimately, I'm not going to invest a great deal into modern trains. 20 years from now, all the new trains will be obsolete shelf queens, but we prewar guys will still be running our tinplate, listening to the buzz of the E-Unit. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my prediction. 

John


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

To be fair, I bought both a used a legacy unit and a tiu -- and I have a small # the flyer chief items. But I never liked the closed aspects of any of it (I mean really, mth scored a patent on reading a motor's rpm with an optical interface... seriously?). I look forward to some other solutions and it can all be mixed together readily enough I think on the computer.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> ...
> A couple of years ago Apple walked away from their industry leading photography app Aperture. Eventually, Apple will do something in the MacOS to break it and at that point I will stop upgrading software and hardware.
> ....


Forrest, I'm with you all the way on that one! I hated to see Apple give up on Aperture. Additionally, Adobe switched to subscription-style software licensing too, which I wanted no part of.

So right now, I have two Mac Pro computers: one is the former Mac Pro "tower" that runs -- don't laugh too loudly -- Snow Leopard (10.6.8) with 32GB memory. But it supports my photography business among other things just fine with Aperture and PhotoShop CS4. Only now after nearly 10 years am I beginning to see some online banking websites indicating they soon won't be supporting the version of Firefox running on OS X 10.6.8. 

My other Mac Pro workstation is the newer cylinder-style Mac Pro that currently runs El Capitan (OS X 10.11) and a slightly updated version of Aperture for that OS (Apple's last Aperture update if I recall correctly) along with PhotoShop CS6 -- the last version of PhotoShop I could buy before Adobe forced users onto the subscription pricing plans. So that's likely to be the last major "software environment" for me before I transition my business into retirement mode photography.  I just don't want to get into the scenarios where a new Apple OS is gonna force me to newer versions of business application software "just because". My point being: the versions I have now WORK for ME. I don't want to be forced into an upgrade path where I'm working for them... or more precisely, where I'm paying more for new versions, but not doing anything differently to streamline my business processes.

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

"one is the former Mac Pro "tower""

What a great machine that was. Every kind of A/V interface you could want built right in. My current 5K iMac has to have all kinds of clunk hanging off of it to give me the same capabilities. When Apple dropped support for it, I felt I had to move on.

i hate to admit it, but your conclusions regarding L seem to have a lot of weight. I am guessing that is why Mike R. is no longer there. Too tuned into the customer.


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## captaincog (Oct 7, 2012)

This reminds me of when I had several Amiga computers and a Video Toaster. Commodore went out of business and I panicked and sold off everything. While I can technically do more on a Windows/Intel platform now I still miss my Amiga computers. I will still use what I have in Lionel ad buy what I like.....just remembering that the repairs might be tougher to accomplish.

BTW, there is an Amiga market and community that still exists today....amazing.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Well I'm not happy about this news as I have a number of locomotives I want to upgrade. 




Volphin said:


> Add to this post the info from the Mogul fiasco... that Lionel has lost their high end tech (again) and Dean is doing repairs himself. The freaking wheels are off the wagon at that place and frankly, I don't see the company lasting another year or two at this pace.


And that would be an absolute shame.




Traindiesel said:


> This will not affect or impact my enjoyment of the hobby at all. I've never used or had installed any ERR parts. But, if I decide to upgrade any of my few conventional locomotives, I'd go to DCS ProtoSound 3.0. I would have anyway.


This would work with pre & postwar Lionel?


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

If the motor has a flywheel, then yes. But other than a few post war items, what I have can be upgraded for DCS.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

What worries me about this announcement is what it represents. Let's face it guys. Lionel is not closing ERR because they want to screw us. Or even because they don't understand us. Lionel is a business and businesses exist to make money. There is obviously not enough demand for ERR equipment to keep the company profitable. Lionel is losing profit and is taking steps to save money. That's it. Now, with a recent history of poor quality and customer service down the drain, Key people leaving the company, Lionel is trying to do more with less. Say nothing about the older demographic of the shrinking (dying) customer base. This looks to me like a company in trouble.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I’m going to DCC as TMCC boards fail. DCC does everything I want and it’s a great system. It's the industry standard in the hobby. 

I was surprised to hear about the ERR demise. 

Lionel’s decisions continue to cause concern of their future.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

PatKn said:


> What worries me about this announcement is what it represents. Let's face it guys. Lionel is not closing ERR because they want to screw us. Or even because they don't understand us. Lionel is a business and businesses exist to make money. There is obviously not enough demand for ERR equipment to keep the company profitable. Lionel is losing profit and is taking steps to save money. That's it. Now, with a recent history of poor quality and customer service down the drain, Key people leaving the company, Lionel is trying to do more with less. Say nothing about the older demographic of the shrinking (dying) customer base. This looks to me like a company in trouble.


Pat, one report said Lionel only made $5K on ERR. Not much but not a loss either. This move has turned more than a few off of Lionel. Its been a PR disaster. I know of three people, myself included, who either didn't order or canceled their order of the Vision Niagara because of this and other issues with Lionel. They also have no intention of ordering Lionel in the future. 
I think in the long run this will cost more than it saves.
Ken, in California is ready to retire. Close that store and move everything to North Carolina. Cost for Lionel to maintain inventory of ERR parts would be almost nil.

Pete


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

We made a decision to buy MTH for the first time a year ago. Then we made a decision to install DCS and Legacy. While we only have one TMCC engine, this issue has tilted the scales toward MTH. We have lost faith in Blue and Orange. 

Will never say never but no Lionel engines ordered BTO in the last two years and we don’t anticipate doing so. Can’t trust the company to look out for its customers, pure and simple.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> .... This move has turned more than a few off of Lionel. Its been a PR disaster. I know of three people, myself included, who either didn't order or canceled their order of the Vision Niagara because of this and other issues with Lionel. They also have no intention of ordering Lionel in the future.
> ....


I was holding back on saying this, but your post is a great segway to what I was thinking. So here goes... 

When some folks were booted off the other forum (or had their accounts placed on full moderation status) last month by OGR's former publisher, a message from a Lionel staffer to OGR indicated that they felt our discussions about Lionel 21" passenger cars were "tarnishing Lionel's image in the marketplace". So OGR made a hot-headed, knee-jerk reaction in attempts to silence a few voices in their community and to avoid potentially losing Lionel's ad/sponsorship revenue. 

Fast-forward a few weeks... And somehow, I find it highly ironic that this latest TMCC/ERR faux pas by Lionel execs has done so much more harm toward "tarnishing Lionel's image in the marketplace" and having a direct impact on future pre-orders than ANYTHING that was ever said about the company's 21" passenger cars on an online forum.

As the saying goes, sometimes you just need to give folks enough rope and they'll do their own damage. Unfortunately, in this case if things stand as they are, the decision to curtail direct availability of TMCC/ERR kits to the consumer will impact the ability of some enthusiasts to enjoy the hobby for no good reason other than a very arbitrary one.  I'm still holding out hope that this technology upgrade path won't be unnecesarily yanked for good.

David


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

The other forum seems a little arbitrary about deleting, closing or editing threads. Not sure about this one at all.

Anyway ...

Lionel, perhaps they'll change their mind. It's possible. I suppose the "hard nosed" analysis may have been:
- profit per year $5000 err
- Retiring Jon's estimate to upgrade all boards good for 10 yr more years: $50000
- (Retiring?) Ken's estimate to test, update manuals, software and website: $20000

Cost to keep err going: $70000. Years to get that back: 14 yrs...

Um,... no thanks!

(in the other forum jon said some of the boards needed work and new suppliers found, and i think it was eluded that ken was near or at retirement maybe also? -- anyway...)

Then again, perhaps the demand, resting rather silently, has been awakened and the #s could look better to them.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

At the end of the day, only those folks in the board room truly know "why" Lionel execs made the decision they did regarding TMCC/ERR kits. The technology clearly isn't "obsolete", because they still plan to offer it in volume to Atlas-O and Sunset Models (3rd Rail). Hence my comment about this being a seemingly arbitrary decision with respect to direct sales to consumers.

Naturally, companies are in business to make money. But the reality is LOTS of decisions get made that aren't necessarily tied to any one department/division/project making or losing money. That's the danger of bringing the camera's zoom lens in to tight on any one project, for example. And that's what I was trying to say earlier about bean-counters and widget-makers calling the shots. They often don't have the give-and-take mentality to realize one project that has smaller profits -- notice I didn't say losing money -- can actually generate lots of good will that contributes to another project or division being highly successful.

Now I'm not suggesting that TMCC/ERR directly resulted in other projects like a VisionLine locomotive being successful. However, what I am suggesting is a modestly profitable TMCC/ERR set of products keeps stability in play, whereas eliminating it causes exactly the kind of ill will we see stirred up in recent days. And it very well may cause some folks to back away from new purchases completely.

Think of it this way... 9 out of 10 of us go to York, and could NEVER cost-justify the trip. But we go anyway, because going helps us in other ways -- some more tangible than others.

Certainly I don't expect businesses to attend York SOLELY because it's fun. But a few have been vocal over recent shows that they make no money by attending. Well then adjust your business decisions accordingly. But don't suggest York is dying because it's returning back to its roots as a social event, rather than suggesting it must develop into a WGH-style show in order to survive with huge crowds of attendees.

The same is true for companies offering multiple product lines. Don't treat every product line as a vertical stove pipe offering that either survives or fails on its own merit. On the contrary, it's not THAT unusual for one product line to open doors to sales in other product lines -- especially when those products are related.

When Lou Gerstner was brought on board to run IBM, some folks balked at the fact that he was the first IBM CEO that wasn't hired from within. He wasn't a computer guy. Instead he was brought over from RJR Nabisco. And since IBM was having troubles at the time, folks thought lots of heads would roll when Gerstner arrived on the scene. But instead, he kept IBM's corporate structure largely intact, because he saw the potential that IBM's different product lines were related, and they could offer complementary opportunities for growth across product lines. In other words, he didn't view them as isolated stove pipes. And customers didn't either.

In a roundabout sort of way, Lionel needs to look at its products in a similar fashion. Keeping a smaller profit TMCC/ERR series of products alive might give enthusiasts cause to upgrade an older locomotive one day while buying a new locomotive another day. (We'd be inclined to think differently if the ERR line was bleeding money endlessly, but it apparently isn't.)

Even IBM's former CEO understood this concept very well, and he wasn't a computer guy. But not all corporate executives have this kind of insight. Apparently the guys running Lionel right now don't.

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Sounds like the execs at Guggenheim Capitol Management are putting some heavy duty cost cutting demands on the Lionel Execs.

Bill


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

If you happen to have Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram accounts also use those to let Lionel how you feel about this by posting your concern and dissatisfaction there. Here are the links:

https://twitter.com/Lionel_Trains

https://www.instagram.com/lionel_trains/

https://www.facebook.com/LionelModelTrains

And in addition to emailing Howard Hitchcock and Chris Elrod, also send a copy of that email to:

[email protected]


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> At the end of the day, only those folks in the board room truly know "why" Lionel execs made the decision they did regarding TMCC/ERR kits. The technology clearly isn't "obsolete", because they still plan to offer it in volume to Atlas-O and Sunset Models (3rd Rail). Hence my comment about this being a seemingly arbitrary decision with respect to direct sales to consumers.
> 
> David


I'm wondering how long this will go on. Lionel's decision to eliminate ERR sales to consumers could be, along with their earlier decision to cease making TMCC sets, the beginning of totally eliminating TMCC altogether.

Since Lionel probably has contracts in place to provide TMCC to 3RD Rail and Atlas O, what happens when those contracts run out? It was easy to eliminate the consumer sales because there's no contract there. Once their contracts with 3RD Rail and Atlas run out, that could be the end of TMCC.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Severn said:


> Lionel, perhaps they'll change their mind. It's possible. I suppose the "hard nosed" analysis may have been:
> - profit per year $5000 err
> - Retiring Jon's estimate to upgrade all boards good for 10 yr more years: $50000
> - (Retiring?) Ken's estimate to test, update manuals, software and website: $20000
> ...


You omit one important fact! Lionel is still selling the boards to 3rd Rail and Atlas, so whatever upgrades they need will have to be done in any case until the cease selling to those to manufacturers.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Folks, one BIG unknown in this development is the length and terms of the contracts Lionel has for supplying Atlas and 3rd Rail with TMCC boards. It might be considerably shorter than we might be speculating. Another possibility might be Lionel working to license LionChief Plus technology to those companies. No one knows except those three companies.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

ogaugeguy said:


> If you happen to have Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram accounts also use those to let Lionel how you feel about this by posting your concern and dissatisfaction there. Here are the links:
> 
> https://twitter.com/Lionel_Trains
> 
> ...


I'll have to email them. MTF is my only social website.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I do get the updates from Lionel on Facebook. In the comment section Lionel gets ripped apart on poor quality. A lot of comments are from first time users that have dropped $300 or so for a starter set only to have to attempt to contact Lionel to return it. It is brutal.

Bill


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

seayakbill said:


> I do get the updates from Lionel on Facebook. In the comment section Lionel gets ripped apart on poor quality. A lot of comments are from first time users that have dropped $300 or so for a starter set only to have to attempt to contact Lionel to return it. It is brutal.
> .....


Bill, 

I hadn't looked at Lionel's Facebook page in a while. You're being much too kind by calling those comments brutal. I'm not even sure what the right word is for them. But those Facebook comments from "everyday general consumers" make even the most critical comments we post here look like praise any day of the week. 

It's amazing how much "crap" we as long-time train enthusiasts put up with in our little corner of the world -- i.e., DOA products, products that fail within the first half-hour of use, paying return-shipping for DOA products, etc... just to name a few. And it's REALLY quite eye-opening to see how the general public (who are often purchasing a new train set for Santa to bring to their children) reacts when they encounter these issues. As loyal train enthusiasts, we should know better. No... make that -- as loyal train enthusiasts we DESERVE better. 

But we look the other way, because we live and breathe this stuff with passion everyday. And the next catalog always shows us powerful images of products that do a terrific job at setting high expectations for how wonderful things are gonna be -- even if we might need to wait 2+ years to see them. I'm not talking about starter sets here. I'm talking about high-end products that most general consumers wouldn't even consider giving a second glance after seeing the catalog's price tag. But in recent years, increasing numbers of expectations of even the most ardent toy train enthusiasts have been dashed by factory sloppiness.

That's bad enough. But this recent TMCC/ERR announcement has nothing to do with overseas factory sloppiness. We're talking about a poor management decision, likely made right here in the USA. And if the same Lionel execs aren't phased by those "brutal" Facebook comments posted by the general public out on the company's Facebook page that the entire world sees every day, then what hope do we have that these execs are gonna be moved by a bunch of hobbiests shouting off some steam while asking to have a poor decision reconsidered? 

Off hand, I'd say zero to none. But I really hope I'm wrong. 

David


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

seayakbill said:


> I do get the updates from Lionel on Facebook. In the comment section Lionel gets ripped apart on poor quality. A lot of comments are from first time users that have dropped $300 or so for a starter set only to have to attempt to contact Lionel to return it. It is brutal.
> 
> Bill


Hmmmmm....a common theme about QC over unrelated social media groups....That’s a problem!

Lionel, despite how they’re acting, is fully aware of their issues and admitting nothing to the public. They can control OGR, but other social media is beyond their reach...isn’t globalization grand?

I’m glad I wasn’t one of the reps at York! Lots of explaining to do! Moguls, passenger cars, etc. Would’ve been a long day!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

When I'm at York I have to avoid the Lionel booth mainly because I would tell them exactly what I'm thinking and my verbal filters are not always working. It's a shame we're even talking about this.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Bill,
> 
> I hadn't looked at Lionel's Facebook page in a while. You're being much too kind by calling those comments brutal. I'm not even sure what the right word is for them. But those Facebook comments from "everyday general consumers" make even the most critical comments we post here look like praise any day of the week.
> 
> ...


_"..*.if the same Lionel execs aren't phased by those "brutal" Facebook comments posted by the general public out on the company's Facebook page that the entire world sees every day, then what hope do we have...."*

_
I totally agree, David, either the Lionel L.L.C. executive management team is dense, arrogant, shortsighted or most likely all three considering that a Feb. 10,2016 Wall Street Journal article quoted "Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for *serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales."*.
The fact that we, those serious hobbyists, who are in an uproar over this ERR fiasco, are as of now being ignored by Lionel is unfathomable.

Btw everyone, if you're registered on the social media employee site LinkedIn, you might want to view the professional credentials of the two Lionel, L.L.C. executives, Chris Elrod and Howard Hitchcock who are in charge of this decision at Lionel as well as Michelle Fannin, Lionel's Sr. Director of Marketing._ *Spoiler alert:* you'll learn "there is not one iota of experience between the three of them in such a minor and specialized area of interest as the world of toy and model trains."_ As others have lamented, it's both obvious and a tragedy based on their decision making that Lionel L.L.C.'s future has been given to "bean counters".
*Also, send a message voicing your concern and dissatisfaction with the ERR decision to Michelle Fannin who can be reached by phone at 704.454.4162 or email:
[email protected]*


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

The only time I purchased an ERR board was almost 3 years ago when I had the nearest authorized Lionel Service Center install one in a conventional scale F3 (Santa Fe #17), so it would work properly. I then sold it on eBay to get rid of it, at a loss of course.

So Lionel's decision to discontinue ERR doesn't really affect me as a conventional operator. But I'm sorry for those of you who ARE affected by this decision.

I too, am taken aback by Lionel's blunders over the past several years and it seems as if its execs. either don't care if the company lives or dies, or are just completely clueless as to what customers want.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

what they could maybe do is license the actual technology to a 3rd party like GRJ and let them take the market risks. You get a box with a engine control module box with "Lionel TMCC Inside" sticker on but it's from GRJ enterprises. GRJ Inc pays a license fee of some sort and you get a board that works with legacy. GRJ assumes all the financial risk, etc... Lionel gets a chunk for each one sold, etc... What's wrong with that idea?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> either the Lionel L.L.C. executive management team is dense, arrogant, shortsighted or most likely all three considering that a Feb. 10,2016 Wall Street Journal article quoted "Lionel still makes authentic trains and associated gear for *serious hobbyists, who account for about 60% of sales."*.
> The fact that we, those serious hobbyists, who are in an uproar over this ERR fiasco, are as of now being ignored by Lionel is unfathomable.


Or maybe just incompetent. Or for some reason totally out of touch with the 60%. On any basis, however, they don't seem to have anticipated the depth of anger that discarding ERR as a components source has caused.

*I wrote to them mainly to put a flea in their deaf corporate ear about cutting off supplies to aftermarket upgrade specialists, including people who post here and on OGR, who contribute far more to the hobby than Lionel seems to understand.*

More generally, they are displaying strong symptoms of inability to manage effectively a business facing serious issues. In that situation, surely the right course is not to insult the intelligence and loyalty of a core part of the customer base? I don't want some groveling apology for that or anybody to commit ritual suicide; I want real action to redress the impact of a bad decision.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

"what they could maybe do is license the actual technology to a 3rd party like GRJ and let them take the market risks. You get a box with a engine control module box with "Lionel TMCC Inside" sticker on but it's from GRJ enterprises. GRJ Inc pays a license fee of some sort and you get a board that works with legacy. GRJ assumes all the financial risk, etc... Lionel gets a chunk for each one sold, etc... What's wrong with that idea?"



Nothing wrong with that idea. Its what Lionel did with Digital Dynamics, Train America Studios, and Electric Railroad. Then they hired away two of them and shut out the third.

I have no idea how these corporate raiders work but could this CFO actually want Lionel to fail? They sold off the archives, ERR, and they are now selling off their Legacy Components, and watching quality plummet off a cliff. When they start losing money does this CFO sell Lionel and claim a big loss.

Pete


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

If you're going to post on Facebook, and I advise you to do so, be aware there are at least three Facebook pages for Lionel Trains. One is the company's own page: Lionel Trains (featuring the Lionel logo), another is Lionel Train forum (featuring a slightly modified Lionel logo) and a third much smaller site called Lionel Trains that features no Lionel logo.

While Lionel management might be indifferent to our outcries on specialized train forums such as MTF and OGR, they could be more sensitive and take greater notice of the publicity generated by postings on public social media sites like Facebook.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

"could this CFO actually want Lionel to fail"

My guess is they are just looking for a higher return on investment and are below expectations to their private equity group. Since apparently most of them are not that great of an investment anyway. (in other words many fail to beat the market)

Anyway since the "big money" apparently is the OEM side of the house for their boards, they could easily add a clause to my figment of imagination licensing deal precluding GRJ Inc from selling to anything other than the secondary (used) market -- not atlas direct is what I mean.

Seems like win for them. They don't have to anything much and they get some money, which may be limited in nature but is still mostly free.

And more legacy base units are sold, and to me -- once you have that: more future new legacy engines are an option.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

This is blowing up on both forums. My friend who is a independent Lionel and ERR dealer hasn't heard anything from either company.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Norton said:


> I have no idea how these corporate raiders work but could this CFO actually want Lionel to fail? They sold off the archives, ERR, and they are now selling off their Legacy Components, and watching quality plummet off a cliff. When they start losing money does this CFO sell Lionel and claim a big loss.
> 
> Pete


Bear in mind that the raiders put a ton of $ into Lionel years ago to get it out of bankruptcy. I don't think that they are just watching quality plummet; instead they seriously misjudged how cost-cutting on assembly would lead to as many problems as it has. That does not explain the ERR decision, which frankly I think has been bungled something cruel. 

Claiming a big loss? Yes, a possibility in commercial terms, although depending on who can claim the loss it might not make a huge dent in their figures. But if it gets someone more understanding of the dedicated customer base in charge I'm all in favor of it!


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## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

I doubt Lionel will reverse course on this decision for whatever reason. My concern however is what to do with my existing fleet. I had 8 additional locos i wanted to change over to TMCC. Looking at the list I reduced that number to 4. Now do I want to try to purchase an obsolete board or abandon the platform completely? Currently I have 10 locos that are CC, all TMCC. Two Lionel, one Kline, 4 Atlas, and 3 WBB I upgraded. I wonder if it isn't worth looking into DCC if it can be used in these 10 locos. The WBB locos have ERR boards, the rest are all factory installed boards which I suppose could be replaced over time. The question is what is the proper direction? This reminds me of the betamax-vhs decision of old. I chose poorly at the time. My feeling is to abandon the manufacturer based systems entirely (DCS, Legacy and whatever else Lionel produces) and move to something that is standard for the entire hobby. Does anyone have experience with DCC or another non manufacturer based system? If so let's consider a new thread to discuss further.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

DCC -- ok limited knowledge really -- is a different ball of wax as I get it today. It is basically a DC 2 rail system with square waves "chopped" into it for the control signals to the various engines. It seems every now and then someone claims "and it can work in 3 rail!" but this isn't clear to me how save retrofits.

And I'm all into that myself. 

The bigger pros are the DCC marketplace is large, lots of options and there is even a fair number of cool seeming open source projects (like the open source project to build your own base station -- how cool is that!? -- just for example: https://github.com/DccPlusPlus)

BUT... that's great for HO, and all the other scales that can fit a small DCC controller into the engine already and built that way ...

It's just not so great for O that I can tell... 

Still, for me personally -- it's been on the list. I've already got the legacy base, the dcs tiu and I've been meaning to one day for sure get a DCC equivalent. Then somehow I'll solve the problem of making an O engine talk to it -- although of course it will work with HO and so on with ease and that's fine too.

But that works for me and is what I call fun ... and I suspect I'm in the minority as far as that goes.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> If you're going to post on Facebook, and I advise you to do so, be aware there are at least three Facebook pages for Lionel Trains. One is the company's own page: Lionel Trains (featuring the Lionel logo), another is Lionel Train forum (featuring a slightly modified Lionel logo) and a third much smaller site called Lionel Trains that features no Lionel logo.
> 
> While Lionel management might be indifferent to our outcries on specialized train forums such as MTF and OGR, they could be more sensitive and take greater notice of the publicity generated by postings on public social media sites like Facebook.


They also moderate facebook and I've had some of my comments marked as spam if they don't wanna hear it


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

L0stS0ul said:


> They also moderate facebook and I've had some of my comments marked as spam if they don't wanna hear it


That is a shame. Often, the advice a company needs most to hear, is that which they least want to hear. I think that fits here.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I just saw this on the ERR website and reproduce it without comment; it speaks volumes in any event:

*“To Our Valued Customers:

Based on business decisions Lionel has decided to no longer support The Electric Railroad Company. We will officially be shutting down all sales of Electric RR related products on May 15th. We will fulfill all orders received up to May 15th while supplies last.

Mike Phillips, Vice President - Brand Marketing.”*


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I’d say that pretty well sums it up...


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Makes you think, doesn’t it.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Howard Hitchcock just posted a long letter on OGR regarding ERR. They are done but he implied someone may be taking over.
Good news I think.
Anyone care to speculate who may be taking over.
I can think of two outfits that have the where with all to do this.
Trainworx with Mike Reagan and Steve Nelson with Alex M and maybe others. Steve is a degreed EE though maybe be out of touch with current technology.
What are your thoughts?

Pete


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## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

So the "other forum" has now shut down the threads and published the "official" announcement from Lionel. From what I have observed comparing the two forums they took longer than usual to quash dissent. My take on the announcement is a whole lot of words with very little substance. The decision is still the decision, let the chips fall where they may.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

I just read that announcement. I guess they weren't prepared for the reaction & backlash they got. The announcement sounded positive but then the old adage "only time will tell".


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## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

The sound bite was perfect, all the right words. What is missing at present is anything concrete. Hopefully there will be something of substance going forward, for now all I read was corporate speak, the wizard is going to have to come out from behind the curtain and deliver or at least have a solid proposal with a timeline.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

*FOLLOW*.......... the buzzards!!


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Traindiesel said:


> If the motor has a flywheel, then yes. But other than a few post war items, what I have can be upgraded for DCS.


Ah well...time to read up on DCC.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

While the tone of Hitchcock’s statement strikes me as better than a mere sop in our direction, it is unsatisfactory that it took a letter writing campaign/serious backlash to produce it. As Brian/PTC has already noted (on the other thread concerning this subject), you’d have thought Lionel would have an alternative supplier in place before causing itself substantial damage in terms of customer relations. Even now they make it obvious that Lionel itself is out of supporting the TMCC upgrade business. Well so be it but frankly my confidence in their willingness to support their own products and to deliver what they offer has taken another knock. 

We’ll see what develops in terms of a third party new supplier. My money would be on Trainwerxs given Mike R’s association with them.

One thing that I don’t understand is Hitchcock’s reference to inability to source components for the ERR products. In recent times ERR has improved its sound offerings and the components have got smaller than before. What exactly can’t they source? To my admittedly untrained eye the boards are made up of standard electronic components. 

Short-term unavailability of certain products like the dummy engine board and Mini ACC make no great practical difference to me as I stockpiled enough of these for the projects I have in mind. But then there’s no guarantee that these will be available from a new supplier in the future. 

The whole episode leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

maybe we should start a new thread on O gauge/scale and DCC. I've poked around on this topic off and on for about 3 yrs say. I came very very close to buying a DCC system for HO with the idea that "I'd try it for O one day" ... but didn't pull the trigger -- yet my intention is to definitely do this for sure sure sort of thing sometime.

Anyway I've I'm happy to refind all my old URLs of interest cause there's a tremendous amount out there on DCC, less so on the DCC+O though to be fair.

As for the the "source" issue -- what I get is the design of those boards is somewhat "old" compared to what parts suppliers have in the bin these days for some items.

This was mentioned by the original owner/designer of Lionel now retired Jon Zorkowski. So someone to get another "run" of those boards would appears to have to do some light redesign.

And as I said -- if your profit is $5k per year but your labor to update to recent parts if $50k... 

Well on paper that looks not so hot.

And yet one imagines the market is bigger for the interested party to improve feature set and and so forth if they are allowed to do so under license, if but Lionel would let some else do it and take the risks.

Maybe they will... it appears this may be happening?


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Sounds to me like Dave Olson spilled the beans prematurely. 

Did the other place kill the thread?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Howard's letter seems to be just a way to placate the masses until the anger dies down. It's a long way from empty promises to actually having them offer the ERR product in some fashion. I'll believe it when I actually see it, because I don't believe anything substantial is happening yet.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Is there a bigger picture speculation out there?

Mike Regan leaves>sale of the archives>consolidation (ERR)

Is it possible they'll soon be offering the company for sale?

I've seen similar stuff from other industries as they try to make the company look lean and attractive to buyers.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

The more I read about whats going on at Lionel, I can't help but see the character Richard Gere played in the movie "Pretty Woman" , who would buy companies then splits up & sells off all the assets until there is nothing left.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

All of you long timers - I had heard of the term but had to google TMCC. You all know this but it adds context for me. 

TMCC was made from 1992ish to 2006 when it was replaced by Legacy and such. 

Wikipedia made it sound like it was state of the art then and called it Lionel's "glory days" or golden age. 

But I am missing the pieces in between. I have purchased a few older locomotives but run conventional. So TMCC is not an issue. Just curiosity on my part. Have all of the commenters here run TMCC for years, when they have not made it in a locomotive for 12 years? 

Sounds like GRJ and others have kept the TMCC fans going, not sure about this side company associated or created by Lionel.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Bryan, there are a lot of engines with TMCC still out there. Not all are Lionel. Atlas has TMCC in some of their engines too. You can look on Ebay just type in TMCC engines and see how many are still for sale. The 'side company' is Electric Railroad aka ERR. With them you can install a command and railsounds boards to any engine. They even have boards for pulmore motors. You can operate those engines with TMCC or Legacy systems. I think with MTH DCS system too.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> ....
> 
> Wikipedia made it sound like it was state of the art then and called it Lionel's "glory days" or golden age.
> 
> ...


Bryan, 

TMCC was Lionel's first generation of command-control using a remote hand-held device called the CAB-1. It was a remarkably simple system, which accounted for its quick adoption by enthusiasts who wanted to get away from being anchored at a central control panel with transformer handles.

As I recall, quite early on Lionel made the TMCC "specs" available, so enhancements could be made on top of what was a very basic system. The earliest TMCC locomotives didn't have "cruise control". And when Lionel came out with their brand of cruise control initially (Oddessy), it had issues with slow-speed operation and jerky starts. So third party developers eventually came out with better options -- still living within the TMCC environment. Companies like Train America Studios (TAS), Electric RailRoad (ERR), and IC Controls all developed add-on enhancements to TMCC. In particular, they offered folks an UPGRADE path, so folks with conventional locomotives could selectively enter the command-control world at their own pace without buying brand new TMCC locomotives. And ERR, in particular, introduced nice cruise-control options that were smoother than Lionel's own Oddessy system.... as did TAS with their Engineer-on-Board (EOB) offering. TAS also offered a Turbo-Smoke product as well.

When Lionel came out with Legacy in the mid-2000's decade, it was a "superset of TMCC" in terms of compatibility. So Lionel's Legacy system with its own remote CAB-2 could still operate TMCC locomotives. However, Lionel never offered upgrades to Legacy. And that's essentially why the ERR kits became so popular with individual consumers. 

With ERR, folks could upgrade their conventional locomotives to command control. And folks with early TMCC locomotives could upgrade their locomotives to have cruise-control. Likewise, folks with ERR boards installed in their locomotives could then take advantage of GRJ's terrific add-on products like the Super-chuffer among others.

Up to this point, Lionel has pretty much kept Legacy "specs" behind closed doors. So third parties have been unable to develop similar kinds of enhancements to Legacy-equipped locomotives. Lionel has done a great job with Legacy cruise-control (sometimes referred to as Oddessy 2), and Legacy Railsounds leads the industry with world-class sounds. So those bases are pretty well covered. But Lionel's smoke units continue to be problematic on all but the best of days, and GRJ's Super-chuffer installed on TMCC locomotives outperforms Lionel smoke units hands down. 

In addition, since Lionel has kept Legacy behind closed doors, Atlas-O and 3rd Rail don't have access to Legacy electronics for their locomotives. So that's once again why ERR has become so critical for other importers producing locomotives. If Lionel had opened Legacy as they had with TMCC, this whole ERR spectacle in the past few days would have been completely avoidable. And ERR would have faded into history years ago -- as long as any Legacy upgrades would have been cost-effective compared to ERR kits. But we'll never know the answer to that, since Legacy upgrades were never offered.

Hope that gives you a bit more perspective on the TMCC/ERR why's and wherefore's.

David


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Denny.


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## gnnpnut (Oct 19, 2016)

Severn said:


> maybe we should start a new thread on O gauge/scale and DCC. I've poked around on this topic off and on for about 3 yrs say. I came very very close to buying a DCC system for HO with the idea that "I'd try it for O one day" ... but didn't pull the trigger -- yet my intention is to definitely do this for sure sure sort of thing sometime.
> 
> Anyway I've I'm happy to refind all my old URLs of interest cause there's a tremendous amount out there on DCC, less so on the DCC+O though to be fair.
> 
> ...



Count me as a HUGE fan of DCC. I bailed on three rail about four years ago, and the single biggest reason was my dissatisfaction with both control systems, purple and orange. I am once again modeling exclusively in HO, and I am very happy with my decision to leave O. I have been using DCC since 1996 on my basement sized railroad, and I've had very few issues over the last 22 years (I can't believe it is that long already). There simply is no comparison to the reliability of DCC on a *large railroad* (my layout is about 2000 sq feet). A lot of guys have very successful TMCC / Legacy and DCS installations on smaller home railroads, but when I was doing modular O scale three rail, we were having no end of problems with an L shaped 70 x 42 railroad. Both control systems had issues that were unsolvable on our railroad. Yeah, maybe it was the railroad, but in my opinion, if a control system is so unforgiving that it cannot reliably operate on what I felt was a pretty well built railroad, then it is simply not ready for prime time. 

IF I was still doing O scale, I wouldn't consider anything BUT DCC or dead rail, and if I ever did a home railroad, this time around it would be two rail. But I never say never to three rail, since I am designing a three rail layout for a friend, so, I may not be dead to three rail yet, I'm still wiggling.  The cost of the layout plan is trackage rights. 

That said, I have two problem children that I need to resurrect from the dead, and absence of replacement parts becomes a PITA. GRJ, I don't know if you are still doing TAS board repairs, but if you are, I need to get in touch with you. 

For me, with the exception of TMCC / Legacy, Lionel has pretty much been irrelevant to me. With the exception of TMCC, if they died, I really couldn't care less. And they seem like they are doing a darn fine job of shooting themselves in the head. 

Regards, 
Jerry


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

And no one seems to have commented on the "closing of the california office" [note: right from Dave Olsen's letter on the ogr ...] -- is that where "liontech" and all the sound engineering is done? That almost seems worse to me...


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> All of you long timers - I had heard of the term but had to google TMCC. You all know this but it adds context for me.
> 
> TMCC was made from 1992ish to 2006 when it was replaced by Legacy and such.
> 
> ...


Over those years TMCC evolved. In the beginning it was just whistle, bell, and chuff sounds and the sound quality was terrible and engine speed varied with load. When Lionel stopped producing TMCC engines the speed control was regulated and sounds vastly improved. Even after Lionel switched to Legacy ERR continued to offer improved sounds plus boards for smaller engines and accessories. GRJ's circuits were just icing on the cake. To me an engine with the latest ERR drive and sounds with John's enhancements is every bit as capable as Legacy. Legacy has never been worth the added expense to me. BTW you can control either system with either controller, Cab1 or Cab2. Running a Legacy engine with a TMCC Cab1 just gives fewer features. They are not incompatible like Lionchief is to TMCC/Legacy.

Pete


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Having done a little LCS programming I can say the command codes are just extended from that point of view. In other words if all the TMCC1 codes were 2 bytes, now for TMMC2 (legacy) -- they are 3 bytes ... 

I'm illustrating ... I don't really recall the specifics and I'm feeling too lazy to go look...


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Severn said:


> And no one seems to have commented on the "closing of the california office" [note: right from Dave Olsen's letter on the ogr ...] -- is that where "liontech" and all the sound engineering is done? That almost seems worse to me...


No, I am sure that’s not where that engineering is or ever was done. Lionel’s sound engineer is Rudy Trubitt, who posts regularly over on the other place. The rest of it I think is done in house by Lionel elsewhere than California, which was only the ERR facility.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Rudy did post over there and said he was in CA. You can find him on the web, I believe we are talking the SF area. It's possible he is his own office and teleworks. That may make sense -- and he has nothing at all to do with the "closing of the california office". And everything else, they farm out as needed etc... Anyway i'm somewhat hopeful Rudy is not gettin' the ax.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Agreed re: farming out, but that’s how things seem to work these days. And yeah, I know Rudy’s over on the Left Coast but I never thought he was connected with the ERR facility. Besides, if he’d been axed too we’d have heard about it at high volume I’m sure!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Rudy was/is in Santa Clara Ca. Lionel apparently has a development lab there. When I needed some debugging on my LCS during layout construction Rudy and team mocked up a portion of my LCS in Santa Clara to figure out a solution. They ended up building and sending me 3 custom made in-line LCS signal amplifiers to fix the issues.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Seems as though the Lionel management team's strategy is working. Howard's letter has obviously quieted down the masses, (at least on that other form,) and placated the vocal furor of many. Be aware however since the chatter has subsided, we can't let Howard perceive this as the pressure being off so he and his executives can acquiesce to an "Outa sight, outa mind" mode and revert to their original plan to abandon the TMCC consumer market.

Complacency will let this topic drift into oblivion and we can't allow that by watching idly from the sidelines. We must be more resolute, vigorous, and vigilant than ever, redoubling our efforts until the deal Howard alluded to becomes reality. Those who canceled orders hopefully won't rethink their decisions and regress by reinstating those orders because of Howard's letter. We must continue contacting Lionel regularly - reminding them of our needs until they rectify the TMCC fiasco they've created.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

In the end, it's proprietary stuff and even a 3rd party license eventually becomes a liability -- and is terminated. And we are back where we started. Except eventually the patents expire. I've never looked at the Lionel stuff much but I did eye the MTH ones using google patents several times. It's quite confusing because the original patents on their train control, sounds and all that appears to be 2000 I think. yet there are several updates to it and it's not clear what then would be open in 2000. I suspect lionel is similar time frames for the core stuff. It may be that someone could you know, just do it.

There was a guy for example that posted on that other forum that appeared to reverse engineer the on the rail signals for MTH. That was kinda cool ... I tried to save away the info as best as I could.

I don't think he set his mind to the TMCC RF signal at all.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Severn said:


> Rudy did post over there and said he was in CA.


Rudy is still with Lionel, but I'm pretty sure he's in SC now.


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