# Flyer Loco 302 vs. 302AC



## Nuttin But Flyer

I have a friend who has a "302AC", or so he thought as that was what was listed on the wrapper of the engine. However, when he reviewed the contents, the engine text stamped on the cab body clearly is "302" only -- no "AC" below as depicted in many pictures. He has had this set since he was a young pup and only through my insistence decided to dig it out of storage to inspect it. So it could not have been tampered with or the wrapper changed -- it has been in his possession since he was a child. I thought I had a "302AC" that I could show him so we could compare the differences, only mine is also a "302". I have been online to the various cataloging sites but none describe the differences between the two models. The only differences I see is in the text stamped on the engine. As most Flyer locos run on AC power, I can't imagine they added the "AC" moniker just for that purpose. Does anyone know what the differences are between these all-too-common engines?


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## Reckers

Let me check when I get home and see if there is any. Have you looked in David Doyle's Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains? "cause that's where I'm gonna be looking for it.


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## Stillakid

http://www.americanflyerexpress.com...r-products-directory-steam-locomotives-01.htm

Check the photos!


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I only checked online catalogs that I am aware of -- both the American Flyer Express, that Stillakid mentions, and the Gallery at The Upstairs Train. The American Flyer Express only shows photos and I see no difference other than the stamped text on the side of the cab. The Upstairs Gallery typically offers differences in his caption explanations. But in this case none is offered. I do not own the book that Reckers has referenced, so I am curious to find what he will offer.


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## Stillakid

*American Flyer 302's*

Actually, if you look at all the pictures, there are several different models.
The 302 came in; 
4 piece cast, with rails and detailed drive gear w/ a tin tender, link coupler(AC)
1 piece cast, no rails, plain drive gear w/ tin tender, link & knuckle coupler(AC) or just 302
1 piece plastic, no rails, plain drive gear w/plastic tender, knuckle coupler

All had smoke and Choo-Choo.

I have them all and there also what the K-Line Manual says, but I've not tried it out, "A/C or D/C!" Also, according to the manual, under load, the early and late models pull different amps. 

Hope this helps some........


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## Reckers

Stillakid is right on the money. There were 5 separate versions of the 302, and 3 versions of the 302AC. Jim, it's nice to hear from you!

I've no pics to go by, but I'm going to offer an opinion. The AC version---by that, I mean with "AC" on the cab---was offered in 1948, discontinued, then run again between 1950 and 1952. Atlantics were surely the backbone of the company's production, inexpensive and reliable. I'd suggest that there was some thought in the company of going to some DC models in their lines, and an effort was begun to distinguish the AC and (future) DC models of the same locomotive. As best I can tell, there are no sigificant differences between a 302 and a 302AC; there's more variation between various models of the 302. It would be realistic to say every 302 is a 302AC, and they were probably marketed that way.


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## flyernut

The main difference from a 302 to a 302AC is the AC is cast, the 302 is plastic, or more precisely, Bakelite.I have 4 302's with the 4-piece boiler, and they're one of my favorites. I believe I have about 7-8 302 AC's, and about 5 plastic 302's. I love them! Easy to fix, and great little runners. I also have several 5 digit Atlantics, but the older 302's are still a favorite.


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## Reckers

Flyer, I don't pretend to be an expert on equipment I don't have in hand or can't date. That said, the book respectfully disagrees with you. It shows both cast (metal) and plastic versions of both. The reverse unit bounces back and forth in the 302 (between tender and boiler) over the years as the bi-polar design department used or failed to use their medication.

..and as far as trusting any book is concerned, let me add the following. The Donner Party got stuck in the snow because they trusted "the book". They relied on Capt. Randolph B. Marcy's "The Praire Traveller". Capt. Marcy also described peculiarities of grizzly bears. According to Marcy, when ensconced in a cave they were not easily smoked out. Build a fire in the mouth of the cave and the bear would come forward and put it out with his paws. Enter the cave with a torch and rifle and the bear would cover his face with his paws to make sure you couldn't see him, a la' peek-a-boo. So much on taking books as the final word on any topic!


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## flyernut

Reckers said:


> Flyer, I don't pretend to be an expert on equipment I don't have in hand or can't date. That said, the book respectfully disagrees with you. It shows both cast (metal) and plastic versions of both. The reverse unit bounces back and forth in the 302 (between tender and boiler) over the years as the bi-polar design department used or failed to use their medication.
> 
> ..and as far as trusting any book is concerned, let me add the following. The Donner Party got stuck in the snow because they trusted "the book". They relied on Capt. Randolph B. Marcy's "The Praire Traveller". Capt. Marcy also described peculiarities of grizzly bears. According to Marcy, when ensconced in a cave they were not easily smoked out. Build a fire in the mouth of the cave and the bear would come forward and put it out with his paws. Enter the cave with a torch and rifle and the bear would cover his face with his paws to make sure you couldn't see him, a la' peek-a-boo. So much on taking books as the final word on any topic!


Maybe we're both mixed up,lol.I was just saying, or meant to say, I've never seen a 302AC which was Bakelite, I've always seen them as cast. I do have Bakelite 302's and cast 302's but never saw a 302AC which wasn't cast. And here's a good one for you. My "book" shows a 301 with wire handrails, and the blown-up diagram does not,lol. I've got 3 301's and haven't seen a wire handrail type yet. Forgot to add, I've always seen the reverse unit in the tender, never in the boiler.On a 300 Atlantic the reverse is indeed in the boiler, not in the tender.


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## tjcruiser

Reckers said:


> ..and as far as trusting any book is concerned, let me add the following. The Donner Party got stuck in the snow because they trusted "the book". They relied on Capt. Randolph B. Marcy's "The Praire Traveller".


That's about one of the most convincing arguments I've ever heard!

History is always the best judge!


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Geez, what did I start here? I'm sorry I asked. Seriously though, this is all great info but history is probably the best judge. I just recently spoke with my friend and he confirms the boiler on his "302" or "302AC" (whichever it may really be) is plastic or Bakelite. Mine is definitely cast.


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## Reckers

From my limited perspective, the difference between the two may simply be the "AC" painted below the cab!


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## flyernut

Reckers said:


> From my limited perspective, the difference between the two may simply be the "AC" painted below the cab!


I believe that's the answer.


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## Stillakid

*Info on the 302AC Designation.......(From Tom Barker)*

Jim,

The 302AC was my first engine. It came in a $19.95 "starter set with a 640 gray hopper, 642 red reefer and 638 red caboose. There was a loop of curved track, a #1 25 watt transformer, a trackclip, and a smoke capsule with a pipecleaner. I was thrilled with the set since it had smoke and choo-choo. That Christmas was in 1951 when I was 10 years old. Some of the thrill was the fact that the catalog I was drooling over did not contain this set.

Here's the reason for the "AC" designation. Gilbert was experimenting with direct current engines in the 1948 - 1951 time period. If you read the instruction manual of that era, you see how to hook up for AC and for DC operation. The engines with the DC motor (an Alnico 5 magnet) had the DC designation and the ones that ran with the universal series motor were designated AC after the engine number. So there was a 342DC, and a 342AC (I have the 342AC), a 322AX and a 322DC, a 332AC and A 342DC. However there was never a 302DC nor a 313DC.

The 302 line was part of the Atlantic 4-4-2 series that also had a 300, a 301, 303, and 307. 

Th early 300 series had the 4 piece cast boiler with wire handrails and more extensive valve gear detail. This gave way to a less costly one piece cast boiler in the very late 1940's. 

The 302AC was only made with this one piece boiler and never found its way into the catalog. It always had link couplers and the 4 step reverse unit.

Only later (about 1957) when the numbering system was changed to 5 digits, did the 2-step reverse unit appear. So, the body may have been an Atlantic, it was not a 302.

What you are saying about the "302" is correct, but the engine is an Atlantic and had a different number.

The engines built by Gilbert all will run on DC since the motor is a Universal Series (US). These US motors were optimized for AC operation and will get hotter when run on DC. That's why the Kline book says what it says.

All of what I have written is from memory since I am in Florida until early March and I do not have my reference books available. If you want to confirm this, write back later when I'm home and I'll check it out. I know there is a long section on the Atlantic engine in one of my books.

Best wishes and I hope this helps.

Tom

Thomas B Barker
1223 Lake Point Drive
Webster, NY 14580
(585) 265-4015
[email protected]
Your Guide in the World of Gilbert American Flyer S Gauge Trains


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## Reckers

Now, that is what I call a definitive answer!


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## flyernut

Reckers said:


> Now, that is what I call a definitive answer!


Yep, and would you believe he's about 12 miles from me?? What a wonderful and small world....


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## Reckers

flyernut said:


> Yep, and would you believe he's about 12 miles from me?? What a wonderful and small world....




You're in Florida, too? :laugh:


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## flyernut

Reckers said:


> You're in Florida, too? :laugh:


I WISH!!!! Close to 15 inches of snow fell Sat night to Sunday morning!!


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## Reckers

I know just how you feel---we had almost 3/4" fall overnight. Even the dogs wanted to stay inside!


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## Nuttin But Flyer

WOW -- If the God of "S" says so, it must be! I respect his word. He would be the one to know. Thanks Tom for clarifying an otherwise muddy mess.


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