# Input sought on new trolley layout



## Subway Fugitive

I have found and started playing with Xtrkcad and came up with a track plan which I think will work out. The dimensions of the layout will be 5.5' by 3.5'. The idea was to have something that I could store under my futon frame. The plan to have a simple loop on the ledge separating my kitchen from the living area is not going to work in HO. I was hoping that someone with more knowledge and experience than myself could look at my track plans and let me know if they have any concerns and/or ideas. I plan to have 2 loops with the inner loop doing an up and over in the middle of the layout. Since I am new to Xtrkcad my plans are not as fleshed out as I would like but it has helped to organize my thoughts.

I am aware that I need to have turns with radii of 8" or greater. My Bachmann Brill has been doing fine with the 8" turns while the Bachmann PCC has not. 

I plan to visit the Baltimore Society of Model Engineers open house on Sunday and perhaps walk away with knowledge that would benefit my layout.

Thanks to all


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## gc53dfgc

A lot of the turn angles are not correct and in the lower left corner those curves are to close together and you will see many derailments there. Try using the free version of anyrail. It will alow 50 pieces of track which should be enough for your purposes. I find that drawing very confusing but also very colorful.


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## Subway Fugitive

gc53dfgc said:


> A lot of the turn angles are not correct and in the lower left corner those curves are to close together and you will see many derailments there. Try using the free version of anyrail. It will alow 50 pieces of track which should be enough for your purposes. I find that drawing very confusing but also very colorful.


Thanks for your input. I realize that the design will need some tweaking. I am not expert enough to get Xtrkcad to do exactly what I want. At your suggestion I have downloaded Anyrail and will spend some time getting to know how it works. 

I am thinking that I would be better served with an N scale layout if I just have 3.5' by 5.5' to work with but I already bought a couple of HO scale trolleys and I really love some of the buildings available in HO scale.

Thanks for your input.


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## shaygetz

HO trolleys should have no problems with tight radius curves...I would experiment with them to see what is the tightest curve all of your fleet can handle, then plan all your turns based on that minimum. The thing that makes traction appealing is street trackage, so you would want to work that into any plan as well, making them more linear and grid-like over the free flowing spaghetti bowl looped in track that regular operators have to have.


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## Subway Fugitive

shaygetz said:


> HO trolleys should have no problems with tight radius curves...I would experiment with them to see what is the tightest curve all of your fleet can handle, then plan all your turns based on that minimum. The thing that makes traction appealing is street trackage, so you would want to work that into any plan as well, making them more linear and grid-like over the free flowing spaghetti bowl looped in track that regular operators have to have.


That is sorta the idea. The very front of the layout would be a gritty urban downtown scene with models provided by Downtown Deco, FOS, and the like. The small internal loop would have as its centerpiece, some sort of industry and maybe a dive bar to keep the workers happy. The outer loop will be rather simple and would have radii that the PCC trolleys can handle. 

The plan is to have the inner loop leave the downtown area and moving clockwise on the lefthand side of the layout be elevated to a height of 3 inches. I plan on constructing a hill which will run along the backside of the layout so that the outer loop can go through a tunnel and the innerloop can run atop a 3" high hill.


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## gc53dfgc

I believe most trolleys can handle 15 degree radius currves and I know all trolleys can handle a 18 easily.


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## Subway Fugitive

gc53dfgc said:


> I believe most trolleys can handle 15 degree radius currves and I know all trolleys can handle a 18 easily.


I have a very simple loop set up on a board that is 18" wide. My Bachmann Brill handles the 8.5" radius turns easily. The Bachmann PCC derails after struggling to negotiate the turn. I am sure that if the radius was just a bit bigger the PCC would make it. Bowser suggests a minimum of 9" on their PCC trolleys. 

I am still in the process of performing research so don't consider anything I say to be the final word. I am grateful to all who have helped me with my education.


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## trainguru

I have the Bowser PCC (my only streetcar  ), and it's a dream! I also suggest TYCO, and AHM's. Try to think what if your streetcar line lasted to now... Could it have gotten a Boeing-Vertrol, or is it a heritage line like the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority, or the Yakima Electric Railway Museum! Or better yet, base it loosely on the trolley museum in Washington D.C.! It's your layout, go bananas!


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## gc53dfgc

Try to stay with the newer age trolleys. All of them come DCC ready and also have a lot more detailing and are better running then those from Tyco or AHM and some of the early Bachmann trolleys.


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## Subway Fugitive

gc53dfgc said:


> Try to stay with the newer age trolleys. All of them come DCC ready and also have a lot more detailing and are better running then those from Tyco or AHM and some of the early Bachmann trolleys.


As I do more and more research and thinking my plans gradually change. I think I will do a module design with 2 modules roughly 5' wide and 2' deep to be connected in a L shape. One of the modules will be a gritty urban cityscape with buildings from Downtown Deco, FOS, and such and the other module will be more of an interurban layout. I will install switches on the urban layout so that I can have continuous loops when only one module is being used. I can have the urban module on top of a shelving unit with very little overhang so it will not look awkward. When the mood strikes me I can take it down and connect both of them together. My apartment is no more than 500 sq feet so space is at a premium. If the module layout is not a good idea then I can build something 5.5' by 3.5' and slide it under my bed. If I went this route I'd be more inclined to go with N scale. A HO layout in this size is ordinary but a N layout in this size is an empire!

I will be going to the train show this weekend in Chantilly, VA (http://www.greattrainexpo.com/) and I will have more opportunities to gather information in order to flesh out my ideas.


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## tooter

gc53dfgc said:


> I believe most trolleys can handle 15 degree radius currves and I know all trolleys can handle a 18 easily.


My old diecast Brill trolley easily negotiates 6 inch radius curves... 





 
The biggest curves in this layout are only 12 inch radius.


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## gc53dfgc

A two wheeled trolley can handle very very sharp radiused curves but it is when you get into the 4 wheeled trolleys that you have a problem with radius and the norm for those is about 15. My Bachmann PCC (old version) can do the 15 but because of the wiring and truck movement can't handle to much more.

And hows that layout coming? Looks like just plain wood still.


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## Subway Fugitive

Tonight the landlord offered me a piece of plywood measuring 2' by 8'. I plan to cut it down to 2' to 5'. That should give me enough room to make 2 city blocks and have 2 loops around the block with one trolley going clockwise and the other going counter clockwise. 

If you look at the European layout at http://carendt.com/scrapbook/page54a/index.html
that is sort of what I am thinking about. 

On Tuesday I have a job interview. If I get the position I'll actually be able to afford to do all this!


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## gc53dfgc

Why not just make the 2x8? Is their just not enough space for three more feet?


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## Massey

I have one of the cheap Bachmann trollys that runs ok but not great and it will take 15" curves great with no issues. I have not tried it on anything smaller.

As for XtrkCAD I will redraw your track plan making everything fit like it should. Just to let you know you dont have to have it perfect since the track plan is just a guide and not the actual laying of the track.

I will post it here as a file and as a picture prolly later tonight early tomorrow.

Massey


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## Massey

OK finished but I cant upload the files at work. I used a min radius of 12", I used the same basic layout you did but I didnt add any elevations or crossing tracks since I dont know what you are planning on doing in those departments. I will post the file if I can if not send me an E-mail at [email protected] and I will send it to you. I hope this helps you with your layout.

Massey


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## Subway Fugitive

You guys are awesome. Thank you so much for your help. gc53dfgc - I do have a book case that is 7' long and 15" deep. It is about 6' tall. I could place the whole 8' x 2' layout on top and have 9" of overhang. I don't know how that will look and I don't know why I would care as I rarely have people over. When your apartment is 500 sq feet is more for living in and less for entertaining in  The plan was to have it sit on top of another shelving unit that is 4' wide by 2'. I was thinking of placing it on top with 6" overhang on either side. 

Maybe someone needs to start a forum for apartment dwelling modellers to share our secrets.


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## Subway Fugitive

Here is the 4'x2' shelf 
DSC_6420 
<p>
And here is the 15" by 7' shelf 
 DSC_6422 by Mike Ratel, on Flickr


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## Subway Fugitive

Actually, HO isn't going to work on top of the 7' wide bookcase as there is a part of the ceiling which is just 6" from the top of the bookcase. That space would be much better with N or Z scale.

My options appear to be 5' x 2' on top of metal shelving unit (yes, those are Cisco routers...) which I could always add a module and join the two where the city meets the country. I have seen videos of the East Penn Traction Club doing this and I think it looks ok. 

Or stick to my original plan of 3.5' by 5.5' and slip it under the bed when I am not using it.


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## gc53dfgc

The 7foot bookcase should be fine, Just use that lower part you can just put street and trolley track on, A standard HO engine is only like 2-4 inchs tall so you are fine in terms of hieght with jsut them but I am thinking your real problem is how far above you it will be so seeing any real detail won't be possible.


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## Subway Fugitive

Yeah, if I was just going with small buildings 6" might not be so bad. I am also keeping in mind that plywood and homasote or foam will eat into the 6". I also wanted to have a little bit of an elevation in some area of the layout. It would be nice to have something that is in view all the time but that might be better done with N scale. 

After doing some measuring I now know that I can go 4' by 5'10" which gives me a scooch more room. I am really inspired by what this person did with 4' x 6.5'. Most people would have settled for a simple loop but this person has a lot going on in that small space. Here is a link to his video http://youtu.be/BOSgR1n4030


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## tooter

gc53dfgc said:


> And hows that layout coming? Looks like just plain wood still.


Hey gc, 

Right now, the real world is taking precedence over the train world. So the layout has been on hold while I'm installing tile on our staircase, and building a concrete streambed to channel the runoff in the rainy season. 

Greg


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## gc53dfgc

Subway Fugitive said:


> Yeah, if I was just going with small buildings 6" might not be so bad. I am also keeping in mind that plywood and homasote or foam will eat into the 6". I also wanted to have a little bit of an elevation in some area of the layout. It would be nice to have something that is in view all the time but that might be better done with N scale.
> 
> After doing some measuring I now know that I can go 4' by 5'10" which gives me a scooch more room. I am really inspired by what this person did with 4' x 6.5'. Most people would have settled for a simple loop but this person has a lot going on in that small space. Here is a link to his video http://youtu.be/BOSgR1n4030


I keep forgetting how small HO really is. My 4x8 uses HO scale engines and HO scale cars but the buildings are porclain ones and everytime I place an HO scale building next to them it makes me chuckle the huge difference in size and makes me marvel at what I could put on my 4x8 if I had gone with all HO scale things but it was a beginner layout and was meant around Christmas so I can't wait to start my large garage layout that will be trully all HO scale, oooh the possibilitys.


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## gc53dfgc

choo choo said:


> Hey gc,
> 
> Right now, the real world is taking precedence over the train world. So the layout has been on hold while I'm installing tile on our staircase, and building a concrete streambed to channel the runoff in the rainy season.
> 
> Greg


Sorry to hear about that, I was really liking your small sized trains and the great idea of your layout.


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## Subway Fugitive

Well, I guess I narrowed it down this evening. I decided to go 4' x 5'10" so I can slip it under my bed. Playing with the layout software and watching other layouts this size does not prepare you for JUST HOW HUGE THIS THING IS! I don't know what I was thinking when I thought I would be able to get this thing in my Corolla. After tying it to my roof I was surprised and delighted when I got home and the board was still on the roof. 

What I got is a sheet of 1/2 OSB which after I got home and checked some of the forums I found out that some people aren't crazy about. The only problem I have is that I should have had it cut to 3.5' as there are 6" that extend from the bottom of my futon frame. I am not sure if I want to keep that or not. When getting out of bed I doubt that I will step on it and when the futon frame is folded up like a couch I can slide the layout back so that none of it extends past the edge of the futon. My landlord has offered to lend me her circular saw but I have never used one. 

I guess it's more of an aesthetic thing than a practical one.


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## Subway Fugitive

The humble beginnings of my empire

DSC_6614 by Mike Ratel, on Flickr

I will be attending the train show in Chantilly, VA this weekend and I am sure that I can pick up some more track. The Bachmann PCC which would not run on the 8 inch radius does fine with a bit more room.

Thanks for everyone's input.


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## Subway Fugitive

Anyone have any ideas to modify my original plan?
Thanks


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## gc53dfgc

I think making it have city blocks would be neat so maybe making it more squarish and lots of switchs for the turns.


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## Subway Fugitive

Yes, the front part of the layout will be a gritty urban scene complete with pawn shops and dive bars. The 2 loops will pass each other. If I do my homework I can figure how to make the trolleys stop at certain points. If I were to run 3 different tracks which would be the best way to run them? 3 different transformers?


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## Massey

DCC is the only way to effectivly and cheaply run 3 trollies at the same time with different stopping points. You could do it with 3 power packs but the wiring for the layout would be a nightmare to say the least. There are several different methods to set up a layout with stopping points around the place. I have a unit that allows my trolly to stop at a location wait a few then reverse and run back the other way. It is all done automaticly and via light sensors. The light sensors work good in most conditions but will not work in the dark. For night operations you would need an auto reverse or automated sensor setup that uses infrared sensors. They usually dont cost that much more but they do have some extra setup. The infra red do not care about how bright or now dim the room is.


Massey


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## kursplat

looks like this will be a fun layout.



Subway Fugitive said:


> If I do my homework I can figure how to make the trolleys stop at certain points. If I were to run 3 different tracks which would be the best way to run them? 3 different transformers?


some one else will probaly know where, but i remember seeing a trolly set up (on here?) that used an auto reverser, as it was a small scene in the over all layout. maybe you could set up one of the trolly lines like that while your manually running the others.



Subway Fugitive said:


> ...My landlord has offered to lend me her circular saw but I have never used one...


any woman that has her own circular saw is alright :thumbsup:


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## Massey

I did a Trolly on one of my full room layouts. It had 2 stops and it was totally automated. Here are a few pics.
































































I used an autoreverser with photosensors. This worked great in the daylight but I could not run the trolly in the dark. If I had used infrareds I could have ran the trolly any time. 

Massey


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## trainguru

Have you considered your overhead system. I just got a vintage Pennsylvania Scale Models overhead wiring system for my pike. and you really can electrify your road like the real thing. My Bowser is wired up to use overhead wiring, and I actualy fancy that a whole lot better than standard feeds for HO!!! Ofcource, wire for show is okay too, but how fun would it be to run your trolley's like real ones???


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## Subway Fugitive

trainguru said:


> Have you considered your overhead system. I just got a vintage Pennsylvania Scale Models overhead wiring system for my pike. and you really can electrify your road like the real thing. My Bowser is wired up to use overhead wiring, and I actualy fancy that a whole lot better than standard feeds for HO!!! Ofcource, wire for show is okay too, but how fun would it be to run your trolley's like real ones???


How much experience should one have in the hobby before tackling a project such as this?


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## T-Man

I use a timer for my reverse. I was never excited about photo sensors. Recently another method of detection has been used. I just haven't fully researched it yet. The optoisolator occupancy detector. It senses curent flow in the track section.

Here is a link if you are interested.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm T-Man, bad link. You somehow linked a reply.


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## alocsin

My Bachmann Spectrum DCC Birney does 4-inch radius quite nicely. I suspect it will do 3-inch curves, but can't get the flextrack to bend that low.


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## Nikola

Old thread; any updates?

I've had HO layouts on as small as 18" x 60". With three loops inside. Trolley and 0-4-0 switcher action. Always interested in seeing tight-radius layouts.


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## traction fan

*Also available*



Subway Fugitive said:


> Thanks for your input. I realize that the design will need some tweaking. I am not expert enough to get Xtrkcad to do exactly what I want. At your suggestion I have downloaded Anyrail and will spend some time getting to know how it works.
> 
> I am thinking that I would be better served with an N scale layout if I just have 3.5' by 5.5' to work with but I already bought a couple of HO scale trolleys and I really love some of the buildings available in HO scale.
> 
> Thanks for your input.


Subway Fugitive (aka Doug Berman?)

The same trolleys and many of the same buildings, are available in N-scale too. I like your idea of long narrow modules. That should give the trolleys a longer run, and the layout a more realistic look, also better access. If you plan on building overhead for your trolleys, I bought some phosphor bronze .013" "Artistic wire" on Amazon. It makes very nice N-scale catenary for my Milwaukee Road layout.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Cycleops

Sorry TF, looks like you may never get a reply to that. The last time Subway Fugitive was on was three years ago.


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