# Lionel NYC F3



## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

Hi everyone, quick question about the 1950's F3. I recently bought one the rear motor would not run and the E-unit was not working. After taking it to the local dealer they said they couldn't fix it and wasn't worth it. I started to mess around with it, after looking at Greensberg's manual i managed to get the rear motor running, the E-unit is still not functioning properly. When tested separately it works great! I tried everything I can think of. Anyone run into this and know what the problem is? Thanks!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Wait for T-Man and Big Ed to come on line...*grins* Those guys heal the sick and raise the dead!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The center rail must run to the isolated e unit connection. Make sure the battery holder has a gasket. Try to draw your wiring to troubleshoot.
More later.
and welcome to MTF.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

T-Man's miracles aren't just limited to trains, either. I've personally seen him cure a ham and make a blind man lame!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

mwooden85 said:


> Hi everyone, quick question about the 1950's F3. I recently bought one the rear motor would not run and the E-unit was not working. After taking it to the local dealer they said they couldn't fix it and wasn't worth it. I started to mess around with it, after looking at Greensberg's manual i managed to get the rear motor running, the E-unit is still not functioning properly. When tested separately it works great! I tried everything I can think of. Anyone run into this and know what the problem is? Thanks!


Whats the engine #?

You check all the wires? Are you sure one is not shorting out somewhere.

Are you saying it has 2 motors? Thats the 2300 series then.

Throw a picture here. Local dealer saying it was not worth fixing and couldn't fix it?
I wonder how his repairing skills are? Did he even know what was wrong with it?
Might be time to find ANOTHER local dealer. Was he an authorized Lionel repair shop?
Was he over 15?:laugh:

What do you think T?
A F3 from the 50's not worth fixing?


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

I will bow to T's and Big-ed's expertise.... but I did find this in a maintainence CD I had its the 1950's 2300 Series that includes the F3's then again I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. From the way its wired, I would think that if you get one motor to work, they both should. I would check the brushes and communicators to make sure the are they are clean, not oil soaked, and that the wires are not broken anyplace. Mak sure that the ground wire from the field coil isn't broken.... Does the E-unit work at all even if the motors don't go


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Join the thread by all means.
I do not claim by any means to be a expert.

They started the GM F3 in 1948 I believe. I wanted to know if he had 2 engines.


I.............do not have that CD.

I would think the same if one was running the other ought to to.

Reckers calls us experts but I know that I can still learn a great deal and T (the teacher) will probably say the same.

By the way that diagram is in the manuals too.

Thanks for your impute please continue.

And Rich come on over and join the O Gaugers too. (you know where that is?)


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

big ed said:


> And Rich come on over and join the O Gaugers too.


Did this afternoon... thanks. The CD has a single PDF on it with images from different manuals... Unfortunately since its images you can't search.... but I remembered something about F3's so I took a gamble....

Mwooden85, can you include a picture showing the insides of the engine... also did you check that the motors are not frozen?

Here is a typical E-unit wiring... yours should be like this only with 2 motors


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You guys are entertaining. He didn't reply so I will do some guessing.
I was doing the thinkin earlier. 
F-3 NY Central 2333 1949 vintage 2343 not much different. Sante Fe has same numbers.

Engine didn't work. I say the rivet was loose and the engine will chatter or not work at all. Look at my threads on F-3 I replaced it with a bolt. 


Power: that guy isn't gonna run on 45 watts after years of neglect. Mine had a hard time with a ZW pushing it.

Lube everything in the lower trucks and clean those wheels. Make sure the insulator is in for the pick up rollers.

I need pictures of the brass drive gear in the trucks. Are any of the wheels have a lot of play????

Look for cracks in wiring especially the middle roller whereit passes through the truck.

RichT has the correct diagram. The coil ground attaches to the loose rivet. Go figure.

Enough for now?


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

<a href="http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d122/turbosportcavalier/?action=view&current=Picture004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d122/turbosportcavalier/Picture004.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I did check the brushes on both motors, that's actually how i got the rear running, sprayed a little electric motor spray, took the brush plate off and cleaned the brushes. Apparently that was a little too intense for the repair shop to handle.


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

whoops sorry guys, that wont work!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

mwooden85 said:


> <a href="http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d122/turbosportcavalier/?action=view&current=Picture004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d122/turbosportcavalier/Picture004.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
> 
> I did check the brushes on both motors, that's actually how i got the rear running, sprayed a little electric motor spray, took the brush plate off and cleaned the brushes. Apparently that was a little too intense for the repair shop to handle.


*BOL!!!* But ringing up a new one on the cash register was within their abilities?


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Here is the image a little brighter (For older folks like myself that can barely see)....

You didn't mention, does the E-unit buzz at all when you apply power? Also is the motor that's visible in this shot the one that's working, or the one that's not? You see the 3 wire ribbon cable going over the top. That's the wires that tie the 2 motors together (Guess my diagram was right  ) make sure that those are connected to the matching points on both motors. You can try using a test clip and attach it on one motor and on its mating point on the other. Don't get then crossed up, the easiest to start with would be the field winding connection. What your looking for is an Open in that ribbon cable

EDIT: I have to type faster.... seems you fixed the photos.... I see something.... there is a Brass hold down clip on top of the Horn relay, looks like its really pinching the insulation on that ribbon cable... maybe its shorted or broke a wire


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you get frustrated rewire. I use banana clip jumpers to trouble shoot after removing bad wires. Maybe start one at a time. The motors look great. The rives appear tight both of you have the 2343. Try to be more discriptive on what happens if you can . Does not work, means nothing happens at all.
Try to set up a jumper wire directly to the eunit from the transformer. This will bypass the cener rail pick up.

Also give a picture of the armature plate with the brush plate off. TO check the grooves.


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

OK, both motors are working and seem to be running fine, not too sure how to test running voltage.There is a gasket between the battery compartment and the frame, brass wire clamp removed, no visible damage or bare wire. Tested continuity between ribbon cable points on the two motors, everything's where is supposed to be. When testing the E-unit with a jumper it works great! off of track power is a completely different story;when throttled up she moves forward. when throttled down and back up the E-unit does not switch positions and the train continues forward. Before anyone asks, yes, I have switched the lever on the E-unit to both positions and neither correct the problem haha .


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Since both motors work, power is supplied by the eunit. So it is not cycling thereforei it has a bad ground. That is when the lever is engaged. Jump a ground wire to make it cycle and just run it and cycle it and see if any of the motors heat up after use. Give it aworkout and see how it runs without the shell. Forward and reverse.


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

That worked great! The motors do not seem to heat up too much. is there a way to permanently fix this? or do I have to leave the jumper attached?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It did? I guess you can change the ground wire. clean the rust on the lever and eunit.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

mwooden85 said:


> That worked great! The motors do not seem to heat up too much. is there a way to permanently fix this? or do I have to leave the jumper attached?


Leave the jumper attached. lol :laugh:

You got to fix it with some good wires. Do you have a soldering gun. If not do You have any friends that might?

T man you sound surprised that it worked.


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

big ed said:


> Leave the jumper attached. lol :laugh:
> 
> You got to fix it with some good wires. Do you have a soldering gun. If not do You have any friends that might?
> 
> T man you sound surprised that it worked.


I do have a soldering iron, I thought T man sounded surprised also! Hahaha


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I had visions of the wire being attached to the transformer and not the frame. That the wire was suspended from the ceiling as the train went around the track. Make a good video.

It is probably a bad connection around the e unit I see rust.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

mwooden85 said:


> I do have a soldering iron, I thought T man sounded surprised also! Hahaha


That's because the repair didn't involve any epoxy!


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

so now that the jumper is attached, I tried to use my newer transformer (40 watt 3 amp)
while my uncle has my zw, and at around half throttle she goes forward a few inches then the transformer shuts down kind of like there is a short, comes back on and will stay on when the loco is in neutral. when powered down and back up it does the same thing in reverse to forward then will stay on in neutral. any ideas?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That's easy. Super easy. You are runnng one of the biggest diesel loco's. Two motors they pull 35 watts each. You are only 25 or so short. You need your max draw plus 25 per cent. It should be 90 watt minimum.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> That's easy. Super easy. You are runnng one of the biggest diesel loco's. Two motors they pull 35 watts each. You are only 25 or so short. You need your max draw plus 25 per cent. It should be 90 watt minimum.


Easy fix too. 
Go to uncle and steal his ZW.:laugh:
Of course leave yours in it's place.


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## mwooden85 (Feb 2, 2010)

ok good! thank you guys for all your help on this, very much appreciated!


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## thartley (Apr 17, 2010)

thanks for the f3 wiring diag. i'm redoing my old 2353's i'm sure this will help! glad i found this site. tom hartley


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