# joed2323 train layout



## joed2323

Name of layout: no special choice as of now

Locale: I want to keep is as close as possible to what we see in upper peninsula of michigan ( escanaba mi - iron mountain mi, area)
Alot of heavily wooded flatland, hilly in some areas, farm area in others
This would mean to me either logging operations, or ore mining, or a little of both, be nice to model paper mill operations as well

Time period: Modern day diesel
Model RR data: Ho scale 

Layout construction:
Min Radius 25-26" 
Trackwork: Atlas, all flextrack
Min turnouts mostly #6, with a couple #4 if need be
Benchwork: conventional

Operation consideration:
Single track mainline 
loop to loop
decent yard area
staging area
local industries here and there
Main line running for the kiddos and switching industries for daddy

Many thanks to (sstalure) for coming up with a layout design for my picky self If it wasnt for scott i wouldnt have made it this far  thanks again scott!! you get all the credit for this design....

this is the layout design of what i have going on








layout size is 18 feet long on west wall, 10 feet and 10 feet on north and east wall

the Main level will have a helix in the middle of the blob on south west section, Blue lines are backdrops, (2 real nice areas available on this level for industries.)

Here is start of upper level.I would envision the train meandering around hills with a logging spur in one spot and I was thinking a mine on the end of the peninsula.The shaded red area and tracks are what would be visible directly below the upper level 


















Goal: get main level up and running first then branch upwards to the helix up to second level..

Ok guys, its been taking me alot longer then i envisioned, with my 4 year old and 2 year old, its been rough getting things done on a timely manner like i once thought.

But i finally got my train up and running today, about time if you ask me, it was starting to drive me nuts not being able to run trains.


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## sstlaure

Looking good Joe. Glad I could help


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## joed2323

I have some videos to share, we all like videos right???


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## joed2323

scott im getting itchy 

That helix is calling my name, its saying (hey look over here joe) come build me... haha

I think i have most of if not all the materials needed to build it, so its on my mind.

The mainline track work is pretty much done, i couldnt get my trains to jump track, so thats good if you ask me since my son thinks its kewl to see the trains go fast and do silly things.... good thing daddy has been playing things safe so far.

I found when wiring the track, use a multi meter when you make a new connection, check for continuity between the 2 tracks, and if my volt meter was beeping or if it beeps for others, you have a short, good to check each connection before you move to far ahead, then when you run into problems, its hard to back track and figure out where your problem is without wanting to cut your layout in half and throw it out the door  

It is nice that i can finally let my train run the tracks and work on other parts of layout so it gives my son something to look at or chase around i should say


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## sstlaure

That's what I like the best about getting it up and running (at least part of it.) There is rarely a time when I'm in the basement working on the layout that my guys aren't rearranging buildings, playing with cars, running trains, etc.


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## joed2323

yes thats another thing, i gotta plan my roads out, and get some near the edges of my layout so my son can play with his cars and trucks, driving them down the roads or whatever he wants to do. 

figuring out where i want roads to go and a industry or building here or over there, its confusing in a way, because there is alot of second guessing going on

scott- did you get your nce up and running yet? or are you still running dc? man sound is so much better for kids, i think my son would get bored quicker with no sound, but i could be wrong


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## Ranger

I like what you got so far, its looking good.


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## joed2323

Ranger- appreciate your opinion, good to hear from someone else that i might be doing something right


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> yes thats another thing, i gotta plan my roads out, and get some near the edges of my layout so my son can play with his cars and trucks, driving them down the roads or whatever he wants to do.
> 
> figuring out where i want roads to go and a industry or building here or over there, its confusing in a way, because there is alot of second guessing going on
> 
> scott- did you get your nce up and running yet? or are you still running dc? man sound is so much better for kids, i think my son would get bored quicker with no sound, but i could be wrong


Still running DC. I've been cleaning my tracks up and trying to get the rest of the sidings etc wired up before I make the jump. One of my engines is dual mode DC/DCC w/sound and has limited sound functions accessed via a remote when operated DC (engine, horn, ditch lights, dynamic brake and uncoupling sounds) so they LOVE that engine.

The kids still like to run their Thomas engines and a couple others that are DC only, so I haven't pushed to get it converted. I don't have the bread to convert the (6) engines I'd want to do. 2 of them I may just swap the body onto a modern chassis. It's the old F2's that came with my military train set.


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## joed2323

thinking of painting my track this color... red oxide primer










Wondering if the color on the railroad ties might be too darkish red? probably should be more of a brown im thinking?
But for the rails i think i like it


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## waltr

Yea, I think the ties are too red in the first photo although not too bad ballasted.
Try Roof Brown or Tie Brown in Floquil or Polly Scale paints. Or Raw Umber in artist paints. Also then dry brush with a little grey to show weathering.
Burnt Sienna mixed with Raw Umber works nice on the Rails. Do vary the colors a little from tie to tie and along the length of the rail.

Here is one method for painting ties and rail:
http://www.proto87.com/fast-tracks-ties-stain.html

Have fun and keep working on it.


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## mopac

Looking good Joe. I like your plan. I too am itching to run some trains.
I have nearly everything I need for my big layout. I have my dcc system,
plenty of flex track, engines, rolling stock. Still need some wood for the
bench work. My problem is I need to clean out the room I will be using. I
have junked it up with all my other hobbies. Can't hardly move in the room.
I have a 36'' circle of track on a board I have been using. Ready to go big. 
Congrats on getting a mainline running. Keep posting pics so we can follow
the progress. Maybe it will help me get mine going.


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## joed2323

Sure thing mopac

Its good feed off each others layout ideas.

I will be sure to add my progress as i go


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## sstlaure

Joe,
Here are some close-up pics of the bridge track compared to regular non-weathered Flex. The paint was the flat dark brown camo paint from Rustoleum. The rust was a Floquil paint pen.


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## joed2323

scott- if your talking about the brown on the bridge railroad ties, that color looks really good, i like that alot. the rail color is from the floquil pen???


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## sstlaure

That is correct. The tightly spaced bridge track is the brown camo color, rail color is the floquil pen.


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## joed2323

ok guys, progress has been slow like always  but hey thats what happens when you have a full time job and two little kiddos...

Ive been messing around with track color and ballast for awhile now and ive wanted to weather my tracks in one easy rattle can step, not 3 different steps or whatever some do...

I also screened my free ballast down to a smaller size, its about the size of medium ws ballast. 

I like it so far, it works for me being all free paint and free ballast, if anything i consider myself a budget modeler so whats available around my house that i can use to make the cost of my layout easier on my pocket i will use if it works for me. 

This is what i got going on, ive been running my trains for awhile now, still no headaches with the mainline or yard so i decided to paint and ballast.









































































I may tone down the color of center of track with caulk, maybe, i think once i start getting scenery up and weeds/grass up around the the tracks it will blend in better. We will see though i messed around with a few different browns for painting track and this is what i liked the best, i live right near train tracks, and where i live they are more of a rusty brown color, so this works for me since im modeling the ecanaba & lake superior rr/canadian national in the up of michigan.

I really think the color of the ballast is correct for the tracks, it looks pretty close to what i see crossing the tracks near my house

This is my story and im sticking with it 
Let me know what you guys think good or bad, i wont cry


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## sstlaure

Looks great.


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## joed2323

Appreciate your comment


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## NSHO

Did you raise/elevate all of your track with roadbed?


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## joed2323

No. Just the mainline has roadbed. The yard has a thin cork sheet under tracks
Sidings/spurs lay flat on the foam or plywood top


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## broox

I wish I had the patience to make my track look that good. the ballast looks like it belongs there... and the rails near me are rusty colour too


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## gunrunnerjohn

Ballast looks great on that track, seems like an excellent size.


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## joed2323

Wow guys thanks alot for your comments...

It gives me confidence when you guys say the track and ballast look good. I wasnt sure what kind of comments i would get with my work so far.

It really wasnt hard at all shooting the track with a rattle can but i would suggest to only spray maybe 3 feet at a time and wipe tops of rails asap, it makes it so much easier to clean up. I did it that way and i spray my yard tracks then i realized oh shi$. It dried quick and it was alot harder to get paint off top of rails, so make sure to spray some track and wipe as you go or you will be kicking yourself...

The ballast does look good with that color track, i tried a few different shades of brown and settled with the one in the pictures.

Im not sure if im trying to be to neat with my ballast ( i think so) trying to make sure to keep the little pepples of ballast off the tops of ties but in the end it does look better then having ballast all over the tops of ties
In real life ballast is thrown about on/around the rr ties.

It is tedious ballasting track if you care what the final result will be.


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## sstlaure

Have you glued the ballast down yet?

If not - make some wet water (water with a drop or 2 of dish soap.) and put it in a misting bottle. Mist down the ballast/track.

Then make a thinned solution of glue/water (50/50 or so) Alene's tacky glue works great. Using a dropper, drip this solution along the ballast. 

The wet water will allow the glue to soak it. This will fix your ballast in place.

It's going to take me forever and a day to paint and ballast all of my track, but I plan on doing it as the end visual result is so much nicer.

Have you tried the black down the middle of the tracks yet? You could even just use water-color paints in a thin wash if you don't have weathering powders (or grind some dust off of charcoal briquettes for free....just don't use Matchlight!)


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## joed2323

Of course. My ballast is glued down the exact way u stated, already got my yard tracks and a good section of my mainline ballasted. I have some turnouts that need ballasting, i gotta be more careful with those as to not get ballast between the hinge and to not get glue in certain spots.

Yup. Ballasting takes awhile, ive been trying to do 3-6 feet every night or everyother night, that way it gets done little by little


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## sstlaure

That's the way to do it. little by little and before you know it it's done.


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## Ranman

looks great


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## brik-el

Great job! :thumbsup:


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## joed2323

ok guys, just playing with the idea of using shingles as my roads maybe.. this is just a rough idea, nothing glued down

what are your thoughts, its hard to get the feel of a road without road lines and what not but...




























Im trying to feel out where my roads will go and what industries im putting on my spurs, i like where my mainline is, but my spurs are questionable.

I originally thought i could model a paper mill but the spot where i thought i could fit a boiler, kraft mill, warehouse, wood chip pyle and everything else that comes with a paper mill, im thinking i wont be able to fit it all without making it look like its too much in one little spot. i wanted to have a scenic divider with paper mill on one side and something else on the other, but i just dont see it possible without using the whole 5x10 section, i think its impossible to fit the mill in a 2.5x 8-10 foot section

Basically i would have to have a scenic divider if i want a second level so the scenic divider could support the upper level when it extends from wall to the peninsula so a divider would almost be a must unless i extend my layout to the east along the wall i could probably go another 8-10 feet east  this should allow me to fit a paper mill and some more  but if i go east i may or may not build a helix then, so if i dont build the helix i have the whole blob section where the helix would go for another big industry like maybe a mine or similar.

Scott i know you will read this so what are your thoughts since you helped alot on my plan? anyone else feel free to comment


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## sstlaure

Just get some white/yellow paint pens to make the stripes. You can mask the road surface to make sure you get a nice even line.

As for the paper mill, put the rail-relevant features on the layout and get pics of the rest that would be on the backdrop.


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## joed2323

scott did you read the rest of my last post that i edited? what are your thoughts, 

How would i blow up pics and put them on backdrop??? Im not sure if they make a paper mill scenic backdrop

Im basically stuck right now, cant decide what would be best.. going with a helix to a second level, which my main level is already at 50 inches, or extend my layout to the east, i cant decide what would give me more, if i go without helix i have that whole blob area for a industry like the mine i had planned for top level plus what i could fit on the east side or just keep what i had planned out

Your advice and direction go a long way


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## sstlaure

It's a lot easier not building a second level and a helix eats up track fairly quick, so you probably would save on track, etc by just extending the benchwork you have. With your main level at 50", the second level would be getting pretty high.

Got a rough sketch of the extension you're looking at? I'm in Mexico on business right now and I don't have my drawing tools with me, but I could noodle on it when I get some time in the hotel tonight.

Think about how you want to operate the layout and that should help you decide.


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## joed2323

i only have one problem, i have a contol panel just off my existing layout now, so im gonna have to figure of a way to cover this up and have access when needed...

im thinking of keeping bench work around 2 feet wide maybe. im not sure if i should just make it like the end of a branch line or what, im keeping the existing track work how it is i like all of that

Im not sure what i should put in the helix blob area, probably a mine or a saw mill but on the east side i could probably go 10 feet atleast, not saying i have to go that far but its possible. If i had a second level it would probably be to high for 
My kids or others to enjoy but would work for me

I guess im just having these thoughts because im mapping out spurs and structures and how i want my roads to go. Im trying to stay flexible on my plan before i get too far and realize i should have went the other way


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## Big Ed

Nice ballast job.

The pictures make it look like you used pure silver in some of the shots.:thumbsup:











I used to drive one of these for a while, do you know the year?
International, from the 70's I think. 73? Or is that a Mack?

I used to own a 77 Pete cab over, it is shown somewhere on the site.

Cab overs are a dying breed, though I still see a bunch in my travels.


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## joed2323

Thanks big ed... i have a uncle named big ed btw


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## sstlaure

You could always make a box to stand on for the upper level as well.


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## joed2323

Scott im actually building one soon. My kids think its awesome to run around on daddies layout... daddy doesnt think it is awesome so they are getting a platform to stand on


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> Thanks big ed... i have a uncle named big ed btw


Do you know the year of the cab over?

Big Ed is a name that all picked for me and it stuck, besides a few other names.
I just go with it.


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## Big Ed

This one looks like Pure Silver.:thumbsup:


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## joed2323

The cabover is a international transstar.. you are pretty close on the year

Glad you like my ballast being homemade and not store bought.


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> The cabover is a international transstar.. you are pretty close on the year
> 
> Glad you like my ballast being homemade and not store bought.


72? I want to see how my old memory banks are working.

If I think too hard smoke starts coming out of my ears.:laugh:

Do you know?


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## kingred58

Great looking track. I really like how consistent the ballasting is. 
You mentioned free ballast - THAT caught my attention! What's your source? 

Yours looks to have many variations of color in it. Very cool. 

I'm sure the kids love the project. The shingles seem like a brilliant road surface. Mine can't wait to have a place to run their Hot Wheels - have to get on that soon!


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## joed2323

Wow. Makes me happy to hear alot of you guys actually like the way i painted my track and the color/variation of ballast i chose. I wasnt sure what kind of comments i would get.

I do feel i spend alot of time trying to get my ballast looking good.
i dont like seeing ballast just scattered ontop of tracks so i try i get most if not all between the ties and form a even side on the slope of road bed.

Btw i have a unlimited supply of ballast. I have 2 5 gallon buckets full on hand. Ive been screening my ballast because its not all the same size... the bigger rocks that didnt fall thru my screen will become part of a gravel pit or something on my layout


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## sstlaure

Are you just screening gravel to get your ballast? You can also use the larger chunks to look like rock fall (placed at the bottom of a crack in a stone face to simulate natural erosion, etc.)


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## joed2323

no scott, its actually very fine material not sure exactly what they use it for around here, but i have access granted, to a quarry i guess you can call it for making roads, they have gravel, all sorts of different grades of fine stone to coarse stone, lots of different material at this place... luckly the trucking company i work for also hauls material out of this place, and my boss has a few dump truck loads worth of this stuff at my work, so whenever i need i just go grab a 5 gallon bucket full  jeeze i should start baggin this up and selling it, sounds like a few people actually like it.

It has a few different colors mixed in, i actually think it matches the ballast the use around me on the mainlines, they also have a few colors mixed in

the first picture is walking distance from my house, second picture is from what i hear the oldest iron bridge in michigan 
















Canadian National spotting a center beam, and picking up a string of box cars

























My kids like taking my 4wheeler down by the tracks and watching the trains, pretty cool, sometimes im in my car parked on the tracks


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## Big Ed

What a great place to stop and take a picture.:laugh::thumbsup:


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## joed2323

some more pictures of what i see 
















You can see the pepsi warehouse behind this centerbeam car


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## joed2323

lol ed, this is next to my house, its basically a intersection where the canadian national and escanaba & lake superior use 

I could probably tell you the exact time of day i should be hearing the air horns coming from miles away

Best place to take a picture is on the tracks:thumbsup:

how about this one ed haha, you can see the cn coming to pick up the string 








the lumber siding is the farthest one to the right, the cn crosses the road and they usually spot one maybe two center beams, this is used for a wooden truss company down the road from me


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## joed2323

I was trying to figure out how to make my road crossings on my layout, and as you can see in those pictures, they basically have a tie on each side of rail with asphalt in the middle, i think i can cut pop sicle sticks down making it appear like wooden ties, i will have to give it a try


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## The New Guy

joed2323 said:


> ...second picture is from what i hear the oldest iron bridge in michigan


Where is that Joe? and do you have a guess as to it's age?


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## joed2323

Powers michigan.. 8 mins from my house. I can find if u really want to know. Give me a few


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## The New Guy

It looks like mine


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## joed2323

ok guys i have a few ideas/questions im working on. I would like to make removable tunnel/mountain, figured i might be able to do this in 4 foot sections maybe?? Reason for the removable sections, is the tunnel is long, if im going to go fishing id rather do it in a river then my tunnel on my layout 

Im trying to figure out a way to cover up/hide my staging area. Not sure the right or if there is a wrong way but im trying to do this with a mountain/tunnel. The staging area is roughly 18 feet long maybe a lil less.

Scott suggested earlier maybe doing building flats hiding the staging area.

Anywho this is what im working with, its basically a box 6 inches tall by 6 inches wide from the wall. I plan on covering this with aluminum screen, then mudding it with joint compound to get rid of the squareness. I wasnt sure if i should go for this idea, or im open for suggestions guys, hint hint...  Knock all you want i could use ideas.

Should i make this like a little hill/mountain or maybe a cliff side? i have a bunch of ceiling tiles to do the cliff idea...

Like i said i could use the advice. 

lol, this is just a Rough idea to get, probably not doing that tunnel entrence 
















































this picture you can see how little room i have between the yard tracks and where this tunnel idea is

















just some odds here, plan this to be a small trucking company

















Lumber yard, my structures need to be weatherd, (i know)


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## Kwikster

Looking good Joe. Like the source for you ballast 

I found an interesting site that shows some old bridges from my area. http://www.shiawasseehistory.com/ironbridges.html This one is about 10 minutes from me, and is open to foot traffic only (at last I knew). It's one of the oldest bridges in the state, built in 1876. 










Edit: forgot this link to the oldest covered bridge still in use in Michigan. http://my.net-link.net/~michaelf/whites.htm


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## mkear

I like the lumberyard, where, which model did you get?


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## joed2323

The walthers kit


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## mkear

Sweet, thank you.


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## sstlaure

I still say you just make a small foreground backdrop, maybe 6" tall or so, paint it blue to match your actual backdrop sky and detail with painted trees, etc. You can just reach over it to access the trains and when the layout is viewed at level you wouldn't see the trains sitting on staging, the blue of the foreground backdrop would blend right in with the back.


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## joed2323

I do like that idea scott and i will have to think it over some more.. maybe i could put a thick row of trees blocking the staging kinda like a forest.

I was trying to figure out a way to hide the turn back loop to staging... maybe i could elevate the blob just a bit so the outside track goes around and back behind the elevation change, might make this blob a town, undecided at this moment


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> I do like that idea scott and i will have to think it over some more.. maybe i could put a thick row of trees blocking the staging kinda like a forest.
> 
> I was trying to figure out a way to hide the turn back loop to staging... maybe i could elevate the blob just a bit so the outside track goes around and back behind the elevation change, might make this blob a town, undecided at this moment



I reread this thread from the start.

How come you deleted a lot of pictures that you put in?


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## joed2323

ed, how many did i delete? i had a crap load on my droid, i thought alot were non sense pics??? Im supprised someone actually noticed, or liked some of my pics ed... Do you remember a certain pic that you may have liked? 

Yea im looking over my layout now and i think if i try and do a 18 foot tunnel or hill/mountain it will look to toy like... I want my layout to look legit not something you buy a toys-r-us


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> ed, how many did i delete? i had a crap load on my droid, i thought alot were non sense pics??? Im supprised someone actually noticed, or liked some of my pics ed... Do you remember a certain pic that you may have liked?
> 
> Yea im looking over my layout now and i think if i try and do a 18 foot tunnel or hill/mountain it will look to toy like... I want my layout to look legit not something you buy a toys-r-us



I don't know what they were I was wondering why you deleted them.
A whole bunch just look like this, 









You don't see this going back and looking over your thread?


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## joed2323

lol ed, sorry... change of mind i guess, thought the pictures were cool then, now not so much 
I promise i wont delete any others, i dont want a bunch of blank boxes all over my thread
heres a little playing around with the sd70, nothing special





Should i put the spare track (rip) track infront of or behind my engine garage? if its infront, the doors get blocked, some wouldnt even look at this as a problem, but.. I probably could make a road right up to the garage infront 

Anybody else have any ideas what i should do to hide my staging area? after running trains, i never had a problem before with derailments or what not, but when i made a temp tunnel, i had a few, wtf!!! After running into a few problems, it was my fault though, forgot to switch the turnout... but i think it might be a better route to make staging reachable
So after this, i think i will just put up a 6inch blue wall like scott suggested, that way i can just reach right over the top and fix any problems... hopefully once everything gets sceniced the wall will not be so noticable. i would like to fill it up with actual trees not just painted on

And scotts idea wont take up alot of room, unlike a tunnel/mountain area.... thanks scott for the pointers  and the told ya so's

So now i will plan on making a smaller tunnel elsewhere, since my son likes seeing the train go through a tunnel


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## sstlaure

Play with the height of it. Put a train on the backmost track and see how tall the small wall needs to be to just hide the trains when viewed from a normal angle. I bet if you do it right it would blend right in.


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## fotoflojoe

sstlaure said:


> I still say you just make a small foreground backdrop, maybe 6" tall or so, paint it blue to match your actual backdrop sky and detail with painted trees, etc. You can just reach over it to access the trains and when the layout is viewed at level you wouldn't see the trains sitting on staging, the blue of the foreground backdrop would blend right in with the back.


Great idea! To add my two cents, you could also place a few building flats on said foreground backdrop. varying heights of a few building facades, plus some trees seems like it would really camouflage your back staging area. Some of them could be used as rail-served industries. :thumbsup:


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## joed2323

Great ideas guys. I will do this. I have enough backdrop material on hand to do this. I like when i can make things happen with what i have laying around. That being said, my layout is on the taller side so i shouldnt have any problems going 5 1/2-6 inches with this fake wall.

I think i will just increase the height going around the backside of the turnback blob area to disguise the loop, kinda forming a hill and the loop will be running behind the hill of the town/industry area.

But man running trains is addictive... with the main line run i have now you would think that would keep me happy but i wish i had a longer run, makes me want to add on to my mainline run now! I like being able to switch at areas and i like to see my train go somewhere that feels like it should take alot longer to complete a loop then it does now...._
When the old lady comes home from work i just may have a loop around the whole basement... 

Those 4 sheets of plywood i have next to the layout they keep winking at me and calling my name
The plywood looks better everytime i run trains... makes me have thoughts of doing a helix. This layout was suppose to include a helix after all, so who am i trying to kid right? Lol 

I may just do the helix but at a different location, at the north east side of my layout. I have plenty of room for one. Going with a helix would allow for a lot longer mainline run without taking away the basement from my kids and the old lady.

I dont know if just adding on say 8-10 feet going east of my layout would be enough to satisfy my needs of a longer mainline run or build up to another level. 
The only problem i have with a second level is that my layout height is at 50 inches and if i go up the height becomes a challenge for my kids/ other people.Its good having options here but sometimes that makes for a tough decision.


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## sstlaure

Do you have stairs anywhere near your layout? My plan is to tuck my large helix under the stairs because it's pretty much dead space anyway.

You'll ALWAYS want more mainline.


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## joed2323

That wont work for me, my staircase comes down near the center of the basement. Thats a good idea though.

Your not planning another helix are you scott? Large helix?  i dont remember seeing a staircase next to your helix? Lol your building another monster...


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## sstlaure

I've already got a 17x30 space planned out on the other side of the basement. The staircase is in the middle between both sides so I'll have tracks going back/forth between the (2) sections. You can see the staircase in this pic (from about 8 months ago) and the garage staircase door in the distance. If I can figure out a good way to leave access for the water heater/furnace, I can probably get 21x30 out of it.










The "big" layout will be (2) full scenic'd levels + additional staging. (And maybe even a small "Thomas" world down at kiddie level incorporated into the staging level.) Most everything will be double-mainline with continuous run possible on each level, but all trains, all directions will have access to all levels. This helix will be (4) tracks wide (5 in some areas) and will span a vertical separation from lowest track to highest track of about 3 feet.

I'm always drawing something up. I'll have to get the layout I have now through landscaping, etc (mostly done except the tiny details) before I start the next section. The plan is to basically fill the basement with functional layout over the next 30-40 years


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## joed2323

wow... your old lady must not care what goes on in the basement, hmmm got any pointers for me, so i can get my old lady on the same page 

Its good to have plans and goals on your layout, and its even better to be flexible and thinking in advance for expansion of the layout, not everyone can expand his or her layout...

Yes mainline run is cool, i honestly feel bad for people who dont have much room at all for a good run, but i guess some is better then none right...


----------



## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> wow... your old lady must not care what goes on in the basement, hmmm got any pointers for me, so i can get my old lady on the same page
> 
> Its good to have plans and goals on your layout, and its even better to be flexible and thinking in advance for expansion of the layout, not everyone can expand his or her layout...
> 
> Yes mainline run is cool, i honestly feel bad for people who dont have much room at all for a good run, but i guess some is better then none right...


There is never enough room!

Lock the door and tell her she is not allowed down in the dungeon except to do the wash.


----------



## sstlaure

Basement is purely storage. Eventually I'll finish it but it's not a priority at the moment. She's got an art studio upstairs for her escape room.

I have few bad habits left and she knows where I am at night. It's a low risk proposition for her as I only really work on it after everyone is in bed or with the kids down in the basement with me.


----------



## joed2323

ok heres a picture i found that i like to hide the turnback loop or maybe even staging if i do a good job check out how this guy disguised his loop









These pictures are what my basement looks like next to the east side of my layout, the expansion area...


----------



## joed2323

its been slow progress with the weather being nice enough for outside projects but i managed to get alittle bit of work done.


Ive put up just about all my fascia except for a 10 foot section. The fascia still needs the screw holes filled and edges finished with drywall mud before i can paint the fascia...

I made one little hill area on a corner what do you guys think before i move on to bigger sections, scenery is fun, im having fun now...


























































In the second to last picture you can see the proposed road and the river, i need to cut out the river through the fascia... There is always lots to do on my layout since i work slow, haha

I must say that roofing felt/asphalt paper makes nice and easy roads, if you plan your roads and cuts its possible to do the roads with no seems

In the last picture, im probably going to adjust the cuts on the fasica so its not so dramatic, i made it alittle higher then i wanted. Its always easier to cut alittle more off if needed


----------



## joed2323




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## sstlaure

Looking great Joe.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Looks good, but it must be a winter scene, lots of snow!


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## joed2323

yeah yeah 

The paint and ground cover will be coming on shortly... Im thinking of going over the plaster cloth with dry wall mud to carve in some rocks, and thoughts on doing this or should i leave it???

The first hill i made was with carboard webbing and plaster cloth, then the second hill was with carboard webbing then window screen, then my son wanted to play with the plaster cloth, so we used plaster cloth, i was planning on using just drywall mud but i figured my son would have too much fun making a mess, thats next time...


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## joed2323

I need to make a list of needed scenery items to purchase, all i have is paint and things to make hills


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## sstlaure

Nothing to frown about - You're making great progress.


----------



## joed2323

some more slow progress


























































Whats a good color for a basecoat before i apply scenery to my hills/mountains

Is the woodland scenics undercoat a must or can i just use some burnt umber or some other similar color??? i painted one hill i did with burnt umber, it seems ok but i dont know whats right and wrong yet so i just want to make sure before i apply grass, etc then realize i should have painted my hill a diff color...

One of my mountains i want it to look more like rock then a dirt hill... so burnt umber probably would not work


----------



## waltr

Try a mix of burnt umber, raw umber, yellow orchre and a little blue (yellow + blue = green). Do these as individual washes so the color is not even but varies a little.

Rock can be gray or brown or reddish. Again do washes of individual colors. A black wash can be used to darken the crack in the rocks.

I use artist acrylics for the washes.

Woodland scenics has videos on their web site shows some of these wash techniques on rocks.
Here is a build article that could be helpful:
http://www.railwayeng.com/Newloop/index.htm


----------



## joed2323

ok guys not much progress has been going on except alittle here and there.

I got lucky and got ahold of the walthers paper mill structures, ive been searching for about 6 months for these. I got ahold of the walthers new river mine also.

With the nice summer we had, all ive really got accomplished was building structures. This is where my layout progress is as of now hwell:

















this cardboard divider is temporary, i will be building a backdrop here.

















Trucking company area








This is my first attempt at trying to make a rocky cliff, and my first attempt at a wash, it looks good to me but ive seen alot better...


----------



## joed2323

Im not sure on this location for the paper mill area, i know its too small, and i need to do something here, i can extend my layout 8 feet to the right of this area, this area will probably get bigger so i can model this the right way... Also you can see to the right of the layout the future area i can use to expand to make my paper mill scene bigger. I was trying to figure out if i should make the divider not as long and put part of the paper mill on the corner area?
Does anyone have any good suggestions for this area??









Ok my river that has a pond area attached to it, im not cool with how it came out, i used woodland scenics water and it just isnt thick enough, im not happy with it, the river bottom looks more greenish then black so it would appear deeper. Any suggestions on this area would be great. 

Nothing on my layout is set in stone, the demo team is standing by, ha
































Believe it or not their is about 3-4 pours of woodland scenics water
























































My son has so much fun playing with his trucks on my layout, poor kid is going to be so sad once daddy says no more going on the layout once progress progresses


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## sstlaure

Holy crap Joe....fantastic progress. It's REALLY cool to see a plan I designed executed by someone else.

For your papermill area, you could place a turnout diverging to the right and make a dead-end industry. If you've got 8 feet to work with you could run some yard tracks diagonally down the middle with industries on either side, maybe some street crossings for your son to drive his cars on as well. I'm trying to plan my roads so that they're convenient for the kids to use. They probably play more with the cars than the trains.

Again - Looks great.


----------



## tjcruiser

Joe,

Your rocky cliff is superb! Very nice work!

TJ


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## joed2323

Appreciate the kind words scott:thumbsup:

Wow I didnt really think I was making much head way with my layout, well not as much as I feel I should be. I will admit Ive been puting layout time on the back burner amd concentrating on getting some much needed structures built. 

Trying to figure out where certain structures will go is kind of frustrating in a way. I dont really think I can fit the paper mill structures plus the track to get to each structure properly. Im almost thinking of maybe building a seperate addition just for modeling the paper mill scene, what do you guys think? 

Yes i can use the area to the right like scott suggested, wouldnt be a bad idea maybe to make say the paper mill as the dead-end industry. It would be nice to get alittle more mainline run to my layout as well. Jeeze having more mainline run is addicting.... Yes I need to design a area on the outside of the benchwork edge to build a decent road area for my son to run his trucks and cars down the roads.


----------



## joed2323

Tj- thanks alot man

Do you guys have any advice for my nasty lookin river, ha

Maybe when i apply ground cover and what not to the river banks it wont look so bad but i just dont know. I should have used different color rocks around the edge and used different paint for the river bottom. Id rather here it from you guys before i go any further with the not so hot looking river area. 

Im thinking about repainting the river bottom black maybe and starting over with either envirotex or floor seal that we use at the trucking company i work at, we seal trailer wood floors with this stuff.. The wood seal is a 2 part kit that you mix up and you can put it on thin or thick and it dries super clear, it really makes the wood floor of a trailer stand out, so I have a good feeling it will work good as long as I can come up with a good river bottom.

I dont know why but i rushed the river and honestly i think it looks like sh*t


----------



## brik-el

Your layout is coming along smashingly well.
I think your creek looks good as is.

Right on the corner by your paper mill, maybe put a couple of giant sawdust/ woodchip piles there. You could have crews loading and unloading the chips
for the paper. 

Trees will always fill a spot you don't know what to do with right away.
And when you figure something out for the spot, send in the lumberjacks.
You could use the logs for the paper mill or housing.

All in all, a fantastic job!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## joed2323

Thanks brik-el, its good to know that im doing better then i think i am. One thing I like about model trains is if I dont like a section of my layout its easy to just tare down and redo the section. The first rock cliff i made it was all trial and error, I had no clue what I was doing but it looks ok to me. I know for next time I need larger rock molds then the smaller ones for doing sections like this.

Brik-el thats a good idea with the wood/chip pyle on the inside radius tracks of the corner.

Im still unsure though on the pond/creek area. maybe I can get a few close-up shots and you guys can get a better perspective.


----------



## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> Tj- thanks alot man
> 
> Do you guys have any advice for my nasty lookin river, ha
> 
> Maybe when i apply ground cover and what not to the river banks it wont look so bad but i just dont know. I should have used different color rocks around the edge and used different paint for the river bottom. Id rather here it from you guys before i go any further with the not so hot looking river area.
> 
> Im thinking about repainting the river bottom black maybe and starting over with either envirotex or floor seal that we use at the trucking company i work at, we seal trailer wood floors with this stuff.. The wood seal is a 2 part kit that you mix up and you can put it on thin or thick and it dries super clear, it really makes the wood floor of a trailer stand out, so I have a good feeling it will work good as long as I can come up with a good river bottom.
> 
> I dont know why but i rushed the river and honestly i think it looks like sh*t




Looking good maaan.:thumbsup:

The kids going to get runned over!

What will you put on the divider if you put it there? 

The water, how deep is it? 4 pours did it leach through? The rock is a little too white unless it is the flash.
I am in the process of doing water on my Stockwell bridge.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=13154

I am winging it, I never did water with anything but paint over plaster.
Then to make it shine a little I used clear Minwax Polycrylic to make it shine.
I think I might try the Magic water on mine.
http://www.unrealdetails.com/

Or just get a 2 part epoxy resin. Cheaper.

Magic water does sound like it works nice and easy but is more pricey.

Edit,
Question for anyone, What kind of dye would you used to add to the water mix?
Say for a 2 part epoxy resin?


----------



## joed2323

uncle ed- 
Your right the rocks are too white. I was thinking I could just paint the rocks after I poured the ws water, and now im thinking that will be a pain in the a*s...

I learned from this creek/pond idea. I know what i shouldnt have done and what i should have done differently. This makes me want to redue this area of my layout. 

The ws water did soak into the wood some, but yeah I used the whole ws bottle, (its not that big to begin with). 
I honestly want my water to be around 1/4 inch thick or more, I know many people say it doesnt have to be any thicker then 1/8inch if the bottom is painted correctly so it appears deeper

On the divider area, I will be using some ferring strips or 1x2 maybe to build a small wall and I will use masonite or some similar thin plywood. It will probably 24-36 inches tall, tall enough so I can not see the other side of layout. To me dividing this 5x10 bench into half gives me different scenes.


----------



## andrew10

just curious for the mountains and hills did u use reg screen wire ( for screen doors ) for the shape?


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment

Joe...there is nothing wrong with that layout, that's for sure! Progress is looking GREAT!

Chad


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## joed2323

Andrew i experimented with using just cardboard strips covered with plaster cloth and cardboard strips covered with window screen (screen wire) then covered with drywall compound that comes in a bag you mix.

The cardboard covered with plaster cloth works good but for me i like the windowscreen method better.

The window screen method is cheaper for a bag of drywall compound is about 6-7 bucks and it goes a long way. 1 bag can make lots of mountains and then some.
With the window screen its easier to make rolling hills. It dries rock hard. My 4 year old son walked on a hill i made and it didnt budge.

My suggestion is to try both methods and see what you prefer. Chances are you will prefer using window screen like i do.


----------



## Mr.Buchholz

Amazing work! That steep rocky cliff looks cool, as does the CN rolling stock in what I'm guessing is your main yard.

-J.


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## joed2323

Yes sir mr buchholz

That is indeed a canadian national yard. I actually found some Escanaba and Lake Superior rr Pulp wood flats and a few other E&LS cars to fill up the yard with. Im modeling E&LS also since they run very close together and share trackage rights on a select few tracks up here in the upper peninsula.


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## Mr.Buchholz

joed2323 said:


> Yes sir mr buchholz
> 
> That is indeed a canadian national yard. I actually found some Escanaba and Lake Superior rr Pulp wood flats and a few other E&LS cars to fill up the yard with. Im modeling E&LS also since they run very close together and share trackage rights on a select few tracks up here in the upper peninsula.


Excellent! The layout I am modelling is based on Canadian National. I have three CN locomotives (One GP40 and two F7's), as well as a lot of CN rolling stock. Perhaps I'll post some pics soon.

-J.


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## New Berlin RR

I really love your work, didn't read the entire thread (got tired of seeing white boxes after about page 6 LOL) but I think you got a great start!!


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## txdyna65

Joe you have done an amazing job, wish I could see all the pictures, but what I could see was great, especially the rock mountain. I didnt see it in the thread anywhere, but what brand of track are you using? I havent started buying track yet and will need alot of it as all my old track is basicly junk.


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## joed2323

Thank you.

Im using atlas flex-track with atlas turnouts. Im also using woodland scenics road bed. I like to be the different one and use the atlas turnouts and ws roadbed since everyone thinks its junk 

Honestly go with flex-track its super easy to use and beats sectional track hands down imop.


----------



## joed2323

Not to much progress to share, but i did not like the way my river turned out using woodland scenics waste of money river

So i used my own idea instead, its better then previous but theres a few things i should have done differently again

The middle of my river doesnt exactly look like its suppose to be deeper, it looks more like a toxic oil spill
But the stuff i used i could of poured it 1/2-1 inch thick easy and it dries no problems, so thats cool because it gets rock hard within 12-24 hours, but it dries super clear

I have some mod podge, im planning on putting over the top of what i have so far, to get the flatness out of it, i seen a few different pictures of what people did using mod podge and it looks pretty good.

I think by the time i understand how to to a river properly i should have a better go at it when i add on to my layout and make a better river


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## Big Ed

What did you use for the water?
Did you tint it any?

It doesn't look that bad, maybe you should have blended the dark center off to the sides but with a lighter dark color.

If you didn't tint what ever you used maybe tint would have worked?

Don't keep it a secret, what did you use?

Did the scenic water leach through you think? 
Did you prepare the river bed different this time to take care of the leaching?

Details Nephew, details please.


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## joed2323

Lol uncle ed


No i didnt tint but i believe i may be able to do another pour again. Kind of scared to tint unless i do a test pour elsewhere and see what the end results are.

I used basically hard wood floor finish, its called "floor restore" we use them for sealing 53 foot trailers at work, and i always have plenty of leftover when we seal floors :laugh:

I think the woodland scenic fake river stuff did leach a tiny bit, i used a whole bottle, i know there isnt too much in a full bottle of ws, another way for them to make another buck, since you always need another bottle.

I admit i did not blend the paint good at all on river bottom, and i wish i did the rocks different I guess i didnt think the "joes water" would be so clear

I think i can either fix this with mod podge over the top to create small ripples/wakes or just try to do one more pour...

After all this messin around on this small little river, i should have experience for the next river/ bodies of water i make on my layout to not make any more dumb mistakes. These are mistakes that im embarrassed to show pictures of, but if my mistakes help others not make simple dumb mistakes that ive made then thats all that counts right?:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think with a little tint the water would look fine, as you say a few ripples will help. I like the idea of using your floor finish, and the price is right.


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## joed2323

Thanks John:thumbsup:


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## sstlaure

Maybe even add some cat-tails/grasses or lily pads around the edges. They'd cast shadows that would help to blend the bottom.


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## joed2323

Hey good ideas with the cat tails and weeds


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## Ranger

Honestly i think if you add some weeds, etc. as stated above it will look real nice.


----------



## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> Lol uncle ed
> 
> 
> No i didnt tint but i believe i may be able to do another pour again. Kind of scared to tint unless i do a test pour elsewhere and see what the end results are.
> 
> I used basically hard wood floor finish, its called "floor restore" we use them for sealing 53 foot trailers at work, and i always have plenty of leftover when we seal floors :laugh:
> 
> I think the woodland scenic fake river stuff did leach a tiny bit, i used a whole bottle, i know there isnt too much in a full bottle of ws, another way for them to make another buck, since you always need another bottle.
> 
> I admit i did not blend the paint good at all on river bottom, and i wish i did the rocks different I guess i didnt think the "joes water" would be so clear
> 
> I think i can either fix this with mod podge over the top to create small ripples/wakes or just try to do one more pour...
> 
> After all this messin around on this small little river, i should have experience for the next river/ bodies of water i make on my layout to not make any more dumb mistakes. These are mistakes that im embarrassed to show pictures of, but if my mistakes help others not make simple dumb mistakes that ive made then thats all that counts right?:thumbsup:


I have read where some first pour over their painted area then on the second pour they add just a hint of blue or green, depends on where your water is. They say dark blue/black if your deep and by the mouth of a bay or going into the ocean, blended in the shallow areas with a lighter blue or even a couple lighter blues, green if your water is still or like a marshy area and then some pour a third layer with just a trace of yellow. The yellow if your water is still.

They also say don't use a sky blue never.
Your river might be better with a brown/yellow tint?

It looks 100% better then the scenic water. :thumbsup:
I read about something like your using, I will have to research that some more.
When you tint they say use just a little, why don't you try a tint (brown?) (green?) and do a third pour it is not like your paying for the stuff. Get an old food container tray white if you can then pour a bit of clear, let that dry then try another on top with a tint of your choice, see what happens.

Next time you think of it get a brand name of the stuff, I think besides the black not looking right the water looks fine.


----------



## joed2323

Ed- I have the brand name for you, but it comes in a box, you get enough to seal a 53 foot trailer, you can not buy it in smaller sizes i believe, i could be wrong on if they sell a smaller amount.
Btw- a box of this high dollar floor seal is around 270 bucks No joke. It makes new floors like new:thumbsup:
270 bucks is alot cheaper then a wet paper roll paper claim, now we are talking a couple grand.

Its called Key Polymer Floor Restore Kit. I can get a exact number to call if your serious, but for that amount of cash i wouldnt buy it unless you have a hardwood floor that needs restoring

Btw- i was looking in menards and home deopt at the stains and paints area, and they have stuff similar to this, its a polymer. I would give this a shot instead.

Im experimenting as we speak with a test area of the same floor restore stuff i used, with mod podge over it, It might work and it might not. I might even try diluting the mod podge with windshield washing fluid, it gives it a slight tint from what i hear. Atleast i will know before i go dumping mod podge over my river

I like your ideas of tinting. Im thinking if i do not like the results of the mod podge idea, i will do another pour of floor restore with tinting involved.


----------



## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> Ed- I have the brand name for you, but it comes in a box, you get enough to seal a 53 foot trailer, you can not buy it in smaller sizes i believe, i could be wrong on if they sell a smaller amount.
> Btw- a box of this high dollar floor seal is around 270 bucks No joke. It makes new floors like new:thumbsup:
> 270 bucks is alot cheaper then a wet paper roll paper claim, now we are talking a couple grand.
> 
> Its called Key Polymer Floor Restore Kit. I can get a exact number to call if your serious, but for that amount of cash i wouldnt buy it unless you have a hardwood floor that needs restoring
> 
> Btw- i was looking in menards and home deopt at the stains and paints area, and they have stuff similar to this, its a polymer. I would give this a shot instead.
> 
> Im experimenting as we speak with a test area of the same floor restore stuff i used, with mod podge over it, It might work and it might not. I might even try diluting the mod podge with windshield washing fluid, it gives it a slight tint from what i hear. Atleast i will know before i go dumping mod podge over my river
> 
> I like your ideas of tinting. Im thinking if i do not like the results of the mod podge idea, i will do another pour of floor restore with tinting involved.


Yea... I will buy a box and rip all my rail off and make one big pond scene.

I have used stuff like that before, they must sell it for the public to use in smaller amounts.
Tell me does that look milky when you open the can then dry clear?

Heck when I re-glassed the inside of my boat years ago the stuff I used dried a nice green smooth finish perfect for a green water scene.
The only thing wrong with the was the stink, but that dissipates over time.
When it is dry you can't smell it at all.

I will research this some more, they want $30 + shipping for 16oz of the Magic Water I was thinking of trying.

Take pictures of your experimentation.:thumbsup:


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## joed2323

Will do, I wont erase them either I will keep you posted

Its actually 2 parts you have to mix together. its milky yes

Now if i box this stuff up that we dont use and put them in my own cans and sell them under a different name, would this be wrong?... haha


----------



## joed2323

ok guys, its been awhile since i have posted info on my layout

I wish i could have put in more work on the layout, but you guys know the drill, with kids and work and the wifey they all need equal attention it seems.

Ive been applying my time on the layout mainly to my paper mill area. Im starting to make some headway with the mill, but i wish i could be alot further along.

The mill sits on a peninsula as you can see in this picture
















In this picture you can see the addition ive started to work on going to the right








I havent got much accomplished on my loco garage area








Here is the road leading into the paper mill warehouse for trucks
































Dollartree trees you can here


----------



## sstlaure

Making great progress Joe. Looking good.


----------



## joed2323

You guys have any ideas on how i can scratch build a conveyor or 2??
I bought a bunch of foam board but im not sure if i will be able to use this as a conveyor now. I need a conveyor for my log and wood chip pyle.


----------



## Ranger

Have you thought about taking the white bases off the dollar store trees, they twist right off and you will see the wire. I twisted them off and drilled small holes where i wanted them, put some glue in the hole and stuck the tree in. Once the glue dries it stays firm. Just a thought in case you didn't want the white bases. either way the layout looks awesome!!


----------



## txdyna65

looking good Joe, I cant help with the conveyor, but would like to ask what ballast and color you used. I like it.


----------



## joed2323

On the dollar trees- yes i dislike the white bases. I plan to buy more but i have not decided where i will put the trees just yet, the white bases are going into the trash..

On the ballast- im glad you like the ballast ive had a few good compliments on what i used
The ballast is homemade 
I grabbed about 4-5 gallon buckets of very fine gravel my boss had piled up from a construction job. I then sifted it down to a finer material and it works for me.
The ballast they use around me has diff colors mixed in just like what i am using.

The mill area drives me nuts. 

Atleast i can say i installed 10 ground throws this evening


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## txdyna65

Well that figures its homemade lol, looks great, I may have to do something similar for mine.


----------



## sstlaure

You can pick up the conveyor that is used in the Glacier Gravel kit as a separate part, or you could make one that is enclosed - it basically just looks like a long box with the idea being the conveyor itself is enclosed within the box. You install a grate at the bottom for the loaders to dump into to load the conveyor.


----------



## joed2323

The modern paper mills ive been to all have unclosed conveyors leading up into the mill
From the wood chop pyle. Open conveyors bring the shredder up wood chips from the wood chipper. Sounds like i may need both kinds.


----------



## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> The modern paper mills ive been to all have unclosed conveyors leading up into the mill
> From the wood chop pyle. Open conveyors bring the shredder up wood chips from the wood chipper. Sounds like i may need both kinds.


Here's the open style. You can build it as one long conveyor.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3149

The enclosed style you could just make out of sheet styrene (use the metal siding style and go with a regular shed roof.)


----------



## joed2323

+++++++
Well not to much has changed on my layout, still slowly chipping away at the paper mill area.

Still trying to figure out exact placement of my kraft mill and recovery boiler.

The cement crew came in and layed some cement down for the buildings to be put in place.

I still need some input from you guys if you have some for the log conveyor area. I do not have a conveyor yet, but as you can see in my pictures im using a 1inch square wood dowel for a mock up of a conveyor.

After talking it over with some people on here, i think my best bet would be to try and make the "wood chip building" an off layout idea. So im thinking of putting a conveyor from the wood yard pointing off the layout. 
Scott if you read this, is this what you were kinda getting at with the conveyors going off layout??

Then i will have another conveyor suggesting wood chips are coming back from off the layout into the recovery boiler/kraft mill.

What do you guys think of this idea. I want to have a wood chip building on my layout, but i do not think i can pull it off with the limited room i have on this peninsula.

So any ideas or suggestions will be great guys, thanks.

So i will put up some pictures just so you guys can get a idea what im trying to dohwell:

























































































































Obviously those mock up conveyors are just an idea, yes they gotta be adjusted to clear the track and etc.
I do not like the color of the road leading into the warehouse area, so that will get repainted when i paint the freshly layed cement.

I tried making ditches around the road area, the paper mills ive visited had pretty good size ditches, im guessing for clearing snow in the winter and what not. My ditches i made are very hard to see in the pictures since they blend in, but when i paint them and scenic them, they should stand out and look more realistic im hoping

Nothing is set in stone, so i plan on adjusting things accordingly, i do not plan on adjusting any track around the mill area. The chemical tanks in front of the kraft mill/recovery building, i was thinking of making this the unloading area for chemicals.


----------



## sstlaure

Exactly what I was talking about Joe. But most likely those conveyors would be feeding the building in the middle of the curve, so the low point must be on the outboard side of the track (going uphill towards the building.)

Looking great BTW


----------



## joed2323

sstlaure said:


> But most likely those conveyors would be feeding the building in the middle of the curve, so the low point must be on the outboard side of the track (going uphill towards the building.)


Your saying the kraft mill needs the conveyors going to it instead of the recovery boiler building???

Not exactly sure what you mean by the low point, and going up hill towards the building???

I know by looking at the conveyor feeding the building not the one going off the layout feeding the wood chip building, that the conveyor going to the mill needs to be angled up into it, since the wood chips usually are in a pyle on ground and the conveyor pulls it from the pyle up into the building... Is this what you mean scott?? otherwise im lost by what you mean


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## Big Ed

What are you going to do, add a mountain to hook them into?


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> Hey good ideas with the cat tails and weeds


You like me never got an answer on this question.

Look what I found!:thumbsup:

http://www.sceneryexpress.com/products.asp?dept=1204

I think there are different sizes.


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## sstlaure

You just need to make sure the material is feeding uphill as it goes through the production stream on the conveyor. I guess I'm not sure which buildings feed which and in what order.

Here's another idea I had for that spot - You could model the building on the outboard side of the tracks with a 1" thick or so background building facing into the layout with the backside open. You could detail the inside of the back of the building (like a cut-away) Wouldn't take up too much depth and would help to convey the feeling of the industry (especially if you want to take track level pictures, etc.)


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## JPIII

First off I'll say that I have no idea which building does what.
I would suggest you build your self a chipper building in the area that you are presently using for log storage. Then run your conveyor to the closest building....you are the engineer here. The unloading spur should have an exit to streamline your processing. JIT is one of the latest buzz words for delivery.


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## BK R

I don't know if this will help, it's the storage are at the Port of Brisbane, they receive logs and chip on site, then store and load onto ships.


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## joed2323

Yeah i was thinking i needed a wood chip pyle to help buy the idea of a paper mill!!! But like scott was suggesting earlier, i do not have alot of room at this industry, thats why it might be a better idea to try and get the feeling that the paper mill is bigger then what we just see on the peninsula..???

I like scott's idea of using a background building at the edge of the layout to help convey the feeling of the paper mill.

Thanks guys this was just what i was hoping for some ideas from you guys.
Im gonna go spend some time looking at different ways of going about doing this in my basement.

BK-R that picture helps alot, from the picture it looks like they have 2 pyle of wood chips, one of bark material, and the other the actual wood chips, and of course a big pyle of logs to chip up.


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## 05Slowbalt

I really like how your layout is looking.


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## joed2323

Thanks slowbalt

I cant wait to get some things accomplished on the mill area so i can build my helix on the rightside of layout where the addition is

I was thinking i could probably use part of the new river mine for a chipper building, was thinking of using the coal loader that is used in the new river mine structure, it has a opening for a conveyor already, this might be a idea i can work with.

I do like your idea scott for using a background structure at the edge of my layout for a wood chip building also, this would give me more room for others things at the mill area to model


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## Big Ed

big ed said:


> You like me never got an answer on this question.
> 
> Look what I found!:thumbsup:
> 
> http://www.sceneryexpress.com/products.asp?dept=1204
> 
> I think there are different sizes.




:dunno::dunno:


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## joed2323

lol uncle ed

I like their products, im not exactly sure what you wanted me to say about them??? They are nice 

Thank you mr ed, yes i will have to try those cattails and weeds, my river scene needs a new makeover already


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> lol uncle ed
> 
> I like their products, im not exactly sure what you wanted me to say about them??? They are nice



YOU....ASKED.....ABOUT THEM????

Quote:
 Originally Posted by *joed2323*  
_Hey good ideas with the cat tails and weeds

POST #109 HERE (in YOUR thread)

No one answered you....................>But me.

Goodnight Nephew, got to get some ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz's now.:smokin:

_


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## JPIII

JIT= Just in time, 
Logs, directly into chipper, into plant. into paper. Saves space & time which equals money. The only big piles a business wants is money.


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## Big Ed

Sorry Nephew I read it wrong, that is me speed reading again.

I thought you asked for any ideals on the catails and reeds,
sorry.


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## joed2323

Dont let it happen again uncle ed :lol_hitting::cheeky4: j/k


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## joed2323

Im working on the addition, kinda took a brief brake from the paper mill area, so i can get more needed supplies for this mill.

I have the helix benchwork roughed in, things can still be tweeked, here is some quick pic since we all like pictures...

































The benchwork still needs some bracing. Im not exactally sure whats better running up clockwise or counterclock wise?? I can fit in atleast a 26 inch radius curve from the wall to go up counterclockwise if that allows entrance to the second level easier.

I actually was almost thinking on chopping the helix table off from the northside of the benchwork against the wall, and cutting out a section to move the helix against the wall, but i built it this way so there would be alittle run from the main layout??? What are your thoughts on leaving the helix where it is or moving it against the wall??? Probably sounds crazy cutting out some benchwork and moving the helix, but you gotta keep your mind/layout open to options...


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## sstlaure

I think it looks fine where it is. Where you have the really tight corner between the helix and the addition benchwork you could radius in that area to gain a little real estate for buildings, etc. I'd take the plywood out below the helix subroadbed because you can just use 1x4 risers to set your initial grade. 

Clockwise or counter clockwise doesn't really matter other than where you want the tracks to enter/exit the helix. If you want the track on the upper level to enter the scene along the wall, then run counter-clockwise up the helix. If you want the upper level track a little closer to the front edge of the benchwork when it exits the helix, then run clockwise up. 

With the plywood out, you can simply attach the 1x4's to the benchwork wherever there is a convenient face along the benchwork below. Start every 90 degrees around the circle, gain 1" at 90, 2" at 180, 3" at 270 and the final 4" height at 360 degrees around the loop, then just maintain the grade with the 1x4's set on their sides (3.5" dimension)

How wide did you make that helix subroadbed? I made mine 5" and would go a little wider on my next one to give plenty of wiggle room for the riser position and track clearance.

With 1/2" ply you can get away with running most of the risers on the outboard side leaving the inside open for access. I haven't seen any deflection at all in my helix. Leave a little clearance between adjacent track sections to allow for expansion/contraction - I butted mine tight when I built it and had to go back and fix some kinked sections. Once fixed they haven't caused any further problems.


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## joed2323

I was thinking about not putting any plywood down as a base for the helix but at the last second i screwed some down! No biggie i can unscrew the base and remove the plywood.

I made the roadbed 5 inches wide. It seems like it will be wide enough.
Im not running any passenger cars. The longest car i will run is centerbeams, i think these are a tad shorter then passenger, but i could be wrong.

If its a must i can throw the first 5 inch piece in the burn pit and start over with a wider roadbed??

I think it would make more sense to run up the helix counterclockwise so the track enters the top level near the wall. My top level will only be no wider then 16 inches.


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## sstlaure

5" works fine, just run the risers for each level up the outboard side of the track and you'll be just fine. If you need some inside support, once the entire helix is built to the top, just run some 1x2 vertical supports up the inboard surface of the helix and drill/screw into the side face of the 1/2" ply sub-roadbed.


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## joed2323

wtf happened to all my pictures:dunno: photobucket wtf did you do with my pictures that blows...

Ive been messing with my paper mill area, i would like to show you guys some things im working on and want some thoughts here.








the black hopper is where the logs get loaded into and the logs go up into the debarker which is the silver building
from their the logs ride up the conveyor into the wood chip building, the "scratch built sign" building without the roof panels.
from there the wood chips will come down and up into the next conveyor in line, it will dump into the wood chip pyle, then the wood chips will travel up into the kraft mill and the paper making process continues from their on








My yellow funnel will turn into the bark pyle from where the logs got debarked








The white circle looking road will turn into the log truck unloading area, their will be a spot here where logs get unloaded and their will be another log unloading spot over where the pulpwood cars get unloaded at...








The plan is to have a decent sized log pyle thats pyled high the length of the tracks that run from near the backdrop to the paper mill warehouse, somewhat dividing the area in half to get rid of that open feel








Their will be a access road for the log loaders behind the woodchip building so they can move logs from the log truck pyle to the debarker or vice versa
















That big open field lookin area will be a big wood chip pyle, also dividing the mill somewhat. obviously i need to buy some more conveyors from the woodchip building on

Everything you see here is roughed in, things can still be moved/tweaked, 
I wish i had alot more room to model my paper mill, but this is what i have to work with. I originally was thinking of having the debarker with the conveyor pointed off of my layout near the fascia, to make it seem like the wood chip building,etc was off layout, so i would have more room for things, but honestly, you cant model a paper mill and not have logs,woodchips and semi's so thats why im trying to squeeze it in my little space. Ive been banging my head against the wall with this industry and my space for quite sometime now, and i finally think i have it layed out half way decent, so, what do you guys think??

While im at it, i might as well add a picture of my future staging lead, im either going to build a curved bridge here and have the lead go under the bridge, but this is going to be hidden staging, so it might make more sense if i build a tunnel before this curve, so it seems like the staging lead dissapears to a "distant town" off layout??? what do you guys think i should do here, i cant decide


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## Southern

I really like what you are doing. Will you have wood chip trains or just log trains? I see a lot of wood chip unit trains going by my work.


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## txdyna65

Looks like a really busy area Joe, I like what you've done and still like your ballast lol
As for a tunnel or bridge I like both and have both on my layout, just wish I had room for more bridges, but I like your reasoning for the use of a tunnel here.. In the last pic off in the distance, is that a bridge or a tunnel?


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## joed2323

That half moon looking thing you see is a culvert mockup. It was a hardened round cardboard tube we get them sometimes at work when we receive different types of head gaskets that come rolled up from Cummins... pain in the but when your trying to lay the gasket flat.

I just cut the round tube in half for a mockup of a bigger then usual culvert, I haven't found a place for it yet...

Guys most if not all the logs get shipped to the two paper mills near my house, by semi and by rail car.
We do have Georgia pacific up here also, a big saw mill that makes lumber, a lot of railcars Leave this place loaded with woodchips 

I'm glad you guys like my recent pictures and updates. When I get good feedback from you guys I know im on the right track.
Txdyna65- thanks for liking my ballast. I still have a couple 5 gallon buckets of this stuff, I should just sell some...
Any suggestions still?
My logs are too big I need to cut them to scale size, I'm pretty sure they are 8 footers that get shipped by semi, loaded the width of the truck.
They seem the same length on rail car too, since most semis load the railcars elsewhere and get shipped to the paper mill.

Southern I have a track that I can park woodchip cars at but I have not figured out how to go about unloading the wood chips, alot of mills have a big blower system that goes over the top of railcar and sucks them out.


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## sstlaure

Layout is looking fantastic Joe. I wish I was making as much progress as you.


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## joed2323

Scott, progress? I feel im not making any progress or not enough. I look at my layout when I'm in the basement and it makes me mad that I'm not further along. It looks like I just skip around to different areas of the layout and never really say this section is done...


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## sstlaure

I haven't done ballast, ground cover, track weathering, plastering of hills, roads......You're MUCH further along than I am and with the quality job you're doing, you'll have a REALLY nice layout when complete. You should be proud of what you've gotten complete in one year. (Your first post to this thread was one year ago on 4/1/12)

They're never really done, and I really need to pick a section and just, at least, finish a single scene. I just haven't been able to pull the trigger to get the time to work on it. Too many other things going on. I need to start working on it only an hour each night so that I'll get somewhere.


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## wingnut163

if you have moved/made albums or done any thing to your photobucket they disappear on the form.


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## joed2323

That's be about photo bucket. I did not delete them. I still have the missing pictures In my albums...

Scott- I miss seeing updates in your layout and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
What I do is I turn my lights on in the basement everyday when I get home from work this way I'm up and down the stairs for my kids/ making supper/etc I usually put in at least 1/2-1 hour minimum on my layout each night.
My layout is only 18x18 as of now until i get the urge to go bigger. Their is lots of different areas that need attention since I'm a one man show.

I setup a airbrush station in my basement so that should be fun to start painting my structures. ..

If you are just finding this thread, go back a page to see pics since the we all look for pics on posts


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## wingnut163

i dont know then.. my pictures have been there 6 years, still there and able to post them.


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## sstlaure

I'm having trouble picturing where this stage lead is on the layout and where staging will reside? Got any better pics with an overall lay of the land?


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## Carl

What happen to the pictures? OK, quick read tells the issue.


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## joed2323

Scott check your pm box..

in this pic you can see the shelving i have to the right of layout, one idea is to run the staging lead down the side of the foam risers then curve over to the shelving to have more then 2 staging tracks...








this pic is the tunnel idea for the hidden staging lead
















i cant decide to make a bridge here with the staging lead going underneath the mainline open, or enclose the staging lead in a tunnel under the mainline.. this is what i need help deciding on
















this is a picture of if i have the staging go underneath my benchwork
last pic is of the two track staging that i can fit along side the foam risers and along the back wall where breaker box is.









I can go a couple of different ways here with the staging a two track staging, staging underneath layout, or staging on the big shelving i have


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## joed2323

Since photobucket robbed my previous photos, i havent had a chance to go back through my thread and fix all those empty blank boxes where pictures once were.

A few of you commented about the ballast color, and im doing more track now, so i figured i would snap some pictures

This is the track painted, rails and ties same color, i dont have patience for doing both different, maybe later i will go back through with a paint pen and paint some individual ties a different color, the color seems bright, but once i rub the ballast into the ties, it dulls it some








Heres a picture of my ballast, i hand sifted from my own goodie stash

































I havent glued the ballast down yet, im in the process of doing so, i just figured i would post something since we like pictureshwell:


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## sstlaure

I think your ballast job looks great Joe. Another cheap tip you can use is the colored grout sands used at Home Depot, etc. Plenty of color variation to be had there as well.

As for the staging, here's a pic where I have a tunnel portal behind a small bridge. You could build that corner up into more of a hill to finish it out. If you put the tunnel portal in front, you then have to extend that hill into your layout space more.


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## joed2323

Scott your picture helps alot, its kinda what i was looking for, it gives me some ideas now, thanks
I like your iron ore cars btw


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## txdyna65

Yes the ballast looks great Joe, as does the rails. (I need to do this) As for the tunnel/bridge dilemma I like both but you are on a curved part and for me that would make me do a tunnel since Im not so great at figuring out curved bridges. If you can do a curved bridge, go for it, I think they look great.


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## joed2323

Thanks Kenny...

Im leaning towards a tunnel since it seems like the logical thing to do. Hopefully soon I will have pictures of what I decide to come up with.


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## sstlaure

Curved bridges are just really a series of straight bridges put together at slight angles to each otehr. Not all that hard to accomplish really.

Glad the pic helped Joe. (I like my Ore cars too - All Walther's Gold Line cars - 24 of them....It's not a cheap little unit train.)


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## sstlaure

Ahem.....I believe I heard a rumor of a recent expansion project??????


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## joed2323

shhhh:eyes:... now im gonna have to supply pictures, secrets out


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## 05Slowbalt

I think you should have a one on one to teach me how to ballast that good. I have so much to learn!


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## joed2323

thanks slowbalt for the comments, ive had a few ppl comment on my ballast, atleast i did something right, or something that looks half way decent I actually found a good source for a steady supply of this ballast, I have a 5 gallon bucket full, but can get lots more. i honestly could bag this up for you guys that want some and maybe if you pay the shipping fee its yours at the shipping cost... What i like most about this stuff is the colors, it looks very much like the real ballast that i see down the rr tracks in upper michigan.


Ok guys, i will admit, i pretty much took the summer off from my layout, but ive been making progress...

I had to move my layout from one side of my basement to the other per wife request:smilie_daumenneg: but little did she know she made me move it to the better half where i have more room to expand:smilie_daumenpos:

I added some pictures to what im dealing with, on the right side of my layout there is about 6 feet maybe to the wall that im going to build a helix in the corner, and it will drop down to lower level staging, then it will go along the wall about 18-20 feet then turn to the middle of the basement another 16 or so feet, so basically my layout will be the walk in type.
this pic shows kinda how the helix will be in the corner (what you see on barrels is idea)



in the last pic there will be a walk in opening where the stool sits, between the 2nd-3rd pole i will add to the layout and it will go around to the wall then follow the wall into the helix


Whats your thoughts on my silly ideas, (i still cant believe i chopped up my layout and moved it)


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## 05Slowbalt

That will be one great layout! I like the helix idea. And I just mite have to send you some money to ship some on that stone.


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## sstlaure

Wow Joe - apparently it's been a long time since I looked at your layout - I didn't even recognize it (I think because the bottom pic is a wide/overall view. not sure I've seen that one.

Are you planning on keeping the incline you have going up on the RHS?

What is the total length/width of the room that you have to work with.

This could get fun......with that helix in the corner you could go multiple tracks wide and give yourself crossovers and branch line operations without eating up benchspace making the climb.


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## joed2323

yeah those braces that are thrown under the table were just to strengthen the legs when i moved the table, they look crappy looking now...

Scott, the incline im not sure, it provides me a way to crossover the track leading into the corner where the helix area will be, it doesnt have to stay like this, this was built this way before i had the opportunity to go alot bigger. It can be removed to makes things better operationaly...

Room size is about 25 feet between walls and easily 25 feet out to the middle of room, so 25x25. i could adjust the direction going from wall out to the middle of room if need be but im happy with 25x25, I have 2 peninsulas in this area so that gives me some nice area for my industries.

Before i moved layout it was built like a dogbone setup where 2 tracks went thru a scene twice, i still like it this way because if i changed it all to a 1 track thru scene layout that would require alot of work but that one track thru scene does sound nice....

Scott i planned to go atleast 2 tracks wide on the helix for crossover reasons just like you stated, not sure if a 3 track helix is needed, ive never had a helix so im kinda unsure with how many tracks is needed:smilie_daumenpos:

I know i need staging so that will be under the main layout, coming off the helix, im not sure if im building the helix just to access staging or for another level but obviously this will give me the option to go up or down levels.

I havent thought to far yet on what im going to do with the addition, or what i will want to add, obviously i like alot of industries, more industries the better so i have plenty of switching opps. I dont know if i should make like a industrial area where i have numerous buildings to switch at or what? I still want more mainline as well so it gives the feel like my trains are actually going somewhere and for my kids to run the mainline while i switch industries
I still want my layout to represent the upper peninsula of michigan so its gotta have that woodsy feel 

Im open for any ideas anyone wants to shoot at me


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> I had to move my layout from one side of my basement to the other per wife request:smilie_daumenneg: but little did she know she made me move it to the better half where i have more room to expand:smilie_daumenpos:



Hello Cousin, 
Garden all gone now, huh?

You should have said "Yes Dear" and left what you had and just start building on the expansion going to the other side. Add a bunk bed too. 

What do you have going around the walls? 
Is that paneling or is it the stockade fence panels for yards?


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## joed2323

big ed said:


> Hello Cousin,
> Garden all gone now, huh?
> 
> What do you have going around the walls?
> Is that paneling or is it the stockade fence panels for yards?


Uncle ed, my house was built in 2004, me and wife bought the house about 5-6 years ago, the orginal owner put up insulation and added these walls to cover up the concrete block. That is just some 1/8 hardboard paneling... Im not to fond of it but it works for now


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## Big Ed

This picture makes it look like it doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling?

See it?


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## joed2323

I appolagize for the long delay of non existence on my part:rippedhand:

Any how, i actually have been making enough progress to actually include pictures.

Ive been doing some demolition work on my layout since i have been changing the design of the folded dogbone to basically a "walk-in-around the room style" layout. It took me awhile to convince myself to start ripping out track work but once i started the bug got in me and i went to town...:sly: 

My total layout area as of now is only 20'x25', but if you look back in my thread it started from 10'x10' and kept growing and changing. I had to move my layout from one end of my basement to the other per the wife's request but i think she got the short end of the stick since i could add on to the layout:laugh:

My yard is completely changed up, the east side of my layout is redone, the river that i didnt like is now gone, I will edit pictures into this thread shortly today, I know this is useless without pictures but hey, i gotta get some coffee in me first

btw- i appolagize for all the blank boxes their is in the begining of my thread, some of those pictures got deleted by accident.
I was almost thinking of starting a "new layout thread" since im down to bare wood and will be documenting the build up from their, but a few areas of my layout will be staying the same like the paper mill area, so i figured it would be a big pain in the butt to transfer what i have into a new thread so i will just continue on with this one


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## Big Ed

Hello Cousin, welcome back.

Newer and better. 


Yes, start a new build thread this one is missing pictures.
This time leave the pictures in. 

My last question above? When he put the "wall" up he didn't go to the top huh?
10' ceilings and an 8' stockade fence?

You are the King right? 
Tell her all she needs is a 4' x 4' area down there. :smokin:


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## joed2323

Sure think uncle, if you want a new build thread then you will get a new build thread:smilie_daumenpos:

Your wrong, about the walls, lol, i guess i need to snap some pictures so you will not have to scratch your head, the walls go up to the rafters. I will include pics of the stockade fence


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## Big Ed

The rug looks like it got wet at some point?

Is it dry down there?
You going to leave the fence up? 
Drywall would let you paint a background on it. Now is the time to do it before you start the new layout. Enough lighting too down there?
Put the fence outside in your yard. 
I wish I thought about painting and adding lights before I started.


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## sstlaure

20'x25'......looks like that original design we worked on really got under your skin 

It's funny, that's almost exactly the area I'm working with for my expansion.


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## joed2323

Scott, no, your wrong, the design we worked hard at worked and still would, but when i moved the layout, and aquired more area, i went bigger and realized i didnt like the mainline running through the same scene twice. After running the trains i realized what i liked and didnt like, trial and error i guess.

Im still using alot of the original design, just altered slightly...

Uncle- i have a backdrop already mounted over the walls, just fastened 1/8 hardboard to the walls and slapped some paint on them, i still need to give the sky depth with clouds/hills
Also have plenty of lighting, still need to put up some fixtures in certain spots but im good to go

Im trying to build (when time allows) the micro engineering tall steel viaduct bridge for a area i have planned, a much better river then that crap looking lil dink i had before


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## sstlaure

Same thing happened to me. My original layout is on here (donut with operations from the center.) HATED climbing under the thing to operate it and it got boring REALLY quick.

Luckily the materials involved are easily recycled for the most part so a tear up isn't anywhere near the end of the world in cost. (Though my wife would disagree  )


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