# lubricating 671 motor question



## dad roadie (Dec 1, 2012)

Hi to all and Happy New Year!
I have a 1952 model Lionel 671 turbine set that I was able to purchase from the original owner. 
I'm working on the turbine at the moment and have cleaned the brush plate and armature .
My question deals with the small hole in the front of the motor that Lionel owners sheet says to fill with Lionel Lubricate. I know this is no longer available and was wondering if anyone can recommend a modern replacement. I have some grease that is call "Lubriplate " and also some HP-Lube grease with teflon. .Would either of these be a good sub? Will lubricate get in through this small hole down to the shaft and bearings or would oil be a better choice.Any recommendations on oiling and lubricating this type of engine would be greatly appreciated!! 
Thanks again for all the help this forum has provided.
All the Best!
Dad Roadie


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

A lot here just use 5/20 or 10/30 motor oil for everything but worm gears.
A white lithium is recommended there.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Lubriplate would be ok for gears especially worm drives.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I recommend motor oil for everything. I don't have any experience that is good with greases.


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes.

For lubricating the worm gear drive using the lube hole, Lubriplate 106 works well.

Lighter Labelle oil for axle bearings, sparingly.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You guys that are recommending Lubriplate, how much experience do you have with it? How long does it last before it gets hard? Ditto Labelle oil?

I have a 2025 loco that was lubed with Valvolene 20W-40 in 1965. It was in storage until about 5 years ago, and the oil was just fine. Not gummy or dried out.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a link to the MSDS for motor oil: 

http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/instr-shop/MSDS/Chevron Supreme Motor Oil SAE 30.pdf

and here is the link to the MSDS for lubriplate:

http://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/MSDS/Special-Auto-Marine-Grease.aspx

Both of these have very similar vapor pressures which means that they should have similar evaporation over time. Unfortunately, the temperature where the vapor pressure was measured was not specified for the lubriplate, and the temperature will make a significant difference.

Here is the vapor pressure of butyl acetate: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/supelco/442666u?lang=en&region=US

Note that it is much higher (25 mm Hg @ 25 C or 78 F) than 1 mm Hg. The motor oil vapor pressure was measured at 212 F. So the vapor pressure of lubriplate is much higher than the vapor pressure of motor oil and so it will evaporate much faster.

I cannot find any data for the LaBelle products.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I do agree with motor oil on most gears. Lithium grease on harder to reach worm gears works best for me. Motor oil will eventually run off, where grease won't. I have a tub of lithium grease I've had for well over 20 years which is still the same consistency as when purchased. As with anything, a little dab'll do ya. The old Lionel grease on the other hand..... nasty stuff. 

Carl


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you kept the tub sealed for 20 years, I would not expect it to dry out. However, the grease used on worm gears is not in a sealed container.

The data I posted for motor oil vs. Lubriplate shows the Lubriplate will dry out in a couple of years. Not good enough for me.


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

First off, I guess I should have started by saying, "Welcome to the Horribly Addicting World of Lionel Post-War Trains dad roadie!." _Morituri te salutant._

671's are absolutely wonderful engines. People will poo-poo their scale and the ridiculousness of modeling an engine there were I think, two of, but post-war Lionel fun has nothing to do with reality in my mind, and is one of the most wonderful, beautiful, engrossing, and educating ways to escape it I've ever come across. Believe me, I've done some searching in my life...

When I got into Lionel post-war trains big-time I was in my late 20's, and I'm 54 now. My layout sadly leans up against the wall in the garage now, awaiting a lot of time, money for rewiring it, money for touching up some things, money for some tuning up, more time, and some more time on top of that. It's just a 4 x 8, but I designed it to have more stuff going on in a 4 x 8 space in O gauge than anyone had done before (without going multi-level), and I think I pretty much succeeded. I was raising a family, spending a lot of money in my mind on the hobby, and wanted to do something that didn't make me feel too guilty while providing more action than a barrel of monkeys.

I ran my trains every night for a bit, and ran them a lot for my daughters (lights off of course!) and other folks who came over. I didn't feel comfortable after getting an engine at a train show until I had taken it down to brass tracks and cleaned it myself, lubricated it, tuned it up, and got it running smooth as glass.

I was definitely an "operator."

I was "raised" by folks who were kind enough to take me under their wing and teach me what they knew. They had played with Lionel trains as children in the 40's and 50's (their parents must have been _rich!_), and had never quit operating and collecting them since childhood. They ranged from electrical engineers to construction company owners, attorneys to line workers, and had pretty much been around the block several times, including while it was being built in the first place. 

As you can imagine, I pretty much parroted what they told me when operating, fixing, and maintaining my trains. Even then though, being of strong, sometimes stubborn will, I definitely developed theories and practices with my own touch thrown in for lubrication of postwar trains, but still pretty much followed their advice first. This leads me to two important things I have learned over my time:

*1. As most of us are human beings, we have our own personal prejudices when it comes to many, many things.*

One guitar player will swear by Gibson guitars. It's what works for them, what "feels" the best, and sounds the best to them for their style of play. Others will only feel comfortable with a 25 1/2" maple fret-boarded Telecaster or Stratocaster in their hands, and prefer the single-coil sound to the humbuckers.

I've never had a magnetraction-equipped spur-geared Lionel post-war steam engine I've ever liked. As a matter of fact, the only magnetraction-equipped steamers I like are 681's and 736's. Other folks probably have 2055's they would swear by, and expound on their ability to pull tree-stumps while operating smooth as glass. 

It's the same for lubricants. It's what works _for you_ that's important. Not everyone uses a lubricant the same way, and what was too much for one goose resulting in poor overall performance might be used a different way by a gander, and provide magnificent results.

*2. Once someone starts talking about using motor oil as a lubricant for something other than cars, the discussion is pretty much closed in their mind.* :worshippy:

I'm sure for a lot of folks, it works really well, has worked well in the past, and will continue to work well for them in the future. This is all in good nature, and not intended to ruffle any personal-choice feathers.

When learning about disassembling and reassembling my 1911 Colt and how to maintain it to an optimal level in my mind, I ran across quite a lot of controversy about lubricants. There were many camps who swore by basically dipping the whole thing in a bucket of 10w-30 and calling it done.

There's something simple, American, nostalgic even, about the idea of using good 'ol motor oil as a go-to lubricant for a lot of things. It bespeaks of a simpler time, when things were designed and built to work forever (like Lionel trains!), nobody made cherry pie like grandma, and rampant racism, communist paranoia, and misogyny ruled the land. What?!? Snap! Ignore everything after, "made cherry pie like grandma..."

But seriously, there is something comforting about using something that has been around forever, is relatively (incredibly) cheap, and provides simple, predictable, acceptable results for those who use it. The only reason I brought it up is that I thought it was pretty cute running into it here after my 1911 experiences, and honestly, it's the first time I had ever heard about using actual motor oil on Lionel Trains before. Again, I am probably just a product of my influences, but I also have experience over a decent amount of time with what I personally use that involves an awful lot of actual daily operation.

I just wanted to acknowledge that there's more than one way to skin a cat, what's important is what works the best for you, and I don't begrudge, bemoan, or belittle what others have chosen to use for themselves. I can only speak from my experiences. What Lionel operators use for lubrication in my mind has no "perfect" answer, and it's not my position to act like what do or use is "better" than anyone else's choices to do the same thing. 

When lubricating the wheel bearings where the axles go through the frame, I used Labelle oils. If memory serves correctly (extremely suspect as of late), the light oils I used were 101 and 102. When I wanted a thicker oil, I used 106. For this particular application, I always started with the 106 oil. Sometimes, if I thought the 106 wasn't getting into the brass bearing on the frame good enough, I'd give it just a teeny touch of 101 to help it flow into the bearing better.

When gears were involved, I wanted something much, much thicker. That's when I used no. 105 Lubriplate. It came recommended to me for a variety of reasons: It's cheaper than dirt. It comes in a huge tube. It works really well with metal-on-metal gear meshes, and even metal-to-plastic as well. As a rule I avoid can motors like the plague, but I do have a twin-canned Lionel RS-3 with the motors in the trucks that works like a dog (as in reliably and faithfully), and a 44-tonner as well that's fun to use with the RS-3 for workmanlike tasks that involve a lot of forward-reverse-forward work like making up trains and general labor duty.

Basically, I was taught that where you had gears going on, you wanted something that was going to "stick around," and not "fly around" while your stuff was doing what it does. I didn't want excess oil dripping from my axle bearings, but if I had to to get it into the bearing, I'd go for a touch of light oil. If it was very warm, the 106 oil might flow nicely into the bearing without the need for an "assist" from light oil to get it to flow into the bearing.

With gears, especially on spur-geared post-war steamers where they're on the side of the frame, I didn't want stuff flying off more than necessary while I ran them for decent little bits of time. I preferred if it stayed on the gears themselves as much as possible.

Yes, Lubriplate would probably dry out faster than motor oil, I have no doubt. You also want to ask yourself, "Self, what am I going to be doing with these here trains for the most part?" If you're going to be an operator, and run them a lot, that's one thing. If they're going to sit in quasi-temperature controlled storage areas a lot, then motor oil probably has a lot of preservative properties for storage that would be beneficial.

While many people will fill you full of horror stories about "The Lionel Engine That Was Over-Lubricated" where the hero wound up losing his home, his job, his family, and his entire layout because he over-lubricated an engine he had one time, I think personally that it's not really as much of a death-sentence than it would be in some cases. If I had a Marklin precision-built Z-gauge billion-dollar little engine, I wouldn't necessary get out a jeweler's loupe, some small tweezers, and dunk the whole things in a shot glass of 10w-30. That might cause some real problems requiring a watchmaker's talents before it was usable again.

With Lionel trains, in an extreme case, you could like, I don't know, maybe coat the coil of a spur-gear motor and cause it to overheat or something...jeez, you'd have to REALLY use a lot of junk to do that...and I'm sure there are other extreme cases you could dream up, but if you've already taken off the commutator cover of your 671 pullmor motor, cleaned the brushes, checked the spring tension, cleaned the commutator face, and have the ability to use a computer to talk it about it here, you're probably not stupid enough to ever do anything that silly.

That being said, as you start operating your engine and it becomes and extension of you because you KNOW exactly what's going on with it's "innards" and lubrication, taking mental notes as you do, if you accidentally use a little too much lubrication as you're getting used to not only being a real daily operator but trying some different products to find your own personal "center" as well, it's not the end of the world.

Don't worry, you'll pay for it for sure, but it will be in the time it takes to clean everything up. :smilie_auslachen:

I'm not too proud to say that I spent a decent amount of time cleaning the inside of shells and bodies, gears, cleaning off wheels, track, and other parts of the engine, as well as the wheels of the cars I was running at the time, because I got a little ham-fisted with my lubricant application. It's actually a great way to learn as long as you're not easily frustrated and take care of it right away before it causes more problems attracting grime, or let it go until it actually does affect electrical connectivity, etc.

Lubriplate 105 grease has always worked well for gears on Lionel post-war trains...for _me_. I like it's consistency, it's daily-use performance, it's co-habitability with metal/plastic combos without the need to change to yet _another product, it's cost and easy availability (Auto parts stores, Wal-Mart), and I'll continue to use it.

I forgot to mention that it also works well with lubricating metal axles in plastic trucks if you run across some modern day Lionel cars for a good price to pull behind your 671.

LaBelle 101, 102, and 106 oils have always worked well for me as well for the applications I've talked about. I'll continue to use those in the future.

Feel free to use what you want to and experiment around if that's what you feel is natural to you. Forums like this, "old hats" at train shows, and seasoned repair salts like Dr. Tinker are all good sources for information and ideas. One of the most beautiful things about Lionel post-war trains is that for the most part, with just a few exceptions, they're tough old birds. Unless they're incredibly mis-handled and treated like door stops, they're going to put up with a little over-lubrication from time-to-time as you learn what you like to use the best and in what amounts.

If you find yourself not liking one lubricating scheme and wanting to go to a different set-up, you just clean them up as nice as you can (Q-tips and denatured alcohol work for me), and apply the new lubrication as needed.

Welcome to the world. I have never found anything as satisfying as maintaining my trains and working on them to get the best performance possible. It is such a pleasure to get your hands all over stuff that was engineered so well, built to last, made with precision and pride, and that gives back as much as you put into it when it comes to care and maintenance.

I also HIGHLY recommend, if you haven't already, getting a copy of Greenberg's "Repair and Operating Manual for Lionel Trains, 1945-1969." It's a wonderful, wonderful book that is as much fun to simply read through and treasure as it is a guide to enable to you to fix darn near anything in the world of Lionel post-war trains. All of the part numbers you'll ever want to know, wow...I just can't say enough. You can get copies for under $20 bucks easy. It's an incredibly thick...well..."Bible" of Lionel Train repair and maintenance. It's worth every single penny, and will become one of your favorite books to pour over on a rainy day. My copy is paperback and the cover finally fell off. I wouldn't sell it for 50 bucks if I was flat broke. Too many memories, too much magic, and too good of a "bench friend" to ever turn my back upon.

If you ever have any questions, feel free to e-mail me at any time. One of the joys of the hobby is helping others learn more about the trains and how to operate and take care of them. Your 671 is a great, great engine, and I'm sure you're going to love operating it for years and years._


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

servoguy said:


> You guys that are recommending Lubriplate, how much experience do you have with it? How long does it last before it gets hard? Ditto Labelle oil?
> 
> I have a 2025 loco that was lubed with Valvolene 20W-40 in 1965. It was in storage until about 5 years ago, and the oil was just fine. Not gummy or dried out.



I never noticed the Lubriplate I used drying out. I tended to run my trains, even if some were only run once or twice a year.

I'm sure it does though. If I were to get some of my trains out that I've now had boxed for several years, I'm guessing I'd probably have to clean off the old stuff and put in some new. I'd probably do that for almost any kind of lubricant that had been sitting for years though. Probably even motor oil.

The LaBelle oil, especially the no. 106 oil, is pretty darn thick, and has a lot of the consistency qualities that motor oil has, and I'd venture to guess their time frames before they'd "get hard" so to speak would be somewhat similar.

All of this of course has to do with temperature and humidity influences of course. A lot of operators of everything from toy trains to firearms seem to favor cleaning old lubricants from equipment stored for multiple years and applying fresh lubricants before using them.

Hope that helps.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Motor oil convert here, never used lubriplate.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Since I can't find any data for the LaBelle products, I won't use them. Picture this: I have about 100 locos and a huge amount of rolling stock. I don't intend to spend most of my time cleaning out dried grease and relubing the locos and other things. You can do that if you want to. Lubrication is an engineering problem which can be solved by obtaining the test data for different lubricants. This is what I have done. And if this is not enough, I can call two engineer friends of mine who are experts on lubricants. Vapor pressure is the primary parameter that is important, and LaBelle chooses not to publish any data.


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

servoguy said:


> Since I can't find any data for the LaBelle products, I won't use them. Picture this: I have about 100 locos and a huge amount of rolling stock. I don't intend to spend most of my time cleaning out dried grease and relubing the locos and other things. You can do that if you want to. Lubrication is an engineering problem which can be solved by obtaining the test data for different lubricants. This is what I have done. And if this is not enough, I can call two engineer friends of mine who are experts on lubricants. Vapor pressure is the primary parameter that is important, and LaBelle chooses not to publish any data.


Gosh, I wish I had two engineer friends. My mailman used to be an engineer for the Union Pacific, but I don't think he ever played with toy trains.

One of the guys who helped me learn about Lionel trains was an electrical engineer and head of the water & light department here in town, but then of course he was one of the guys who recommended the LaBelle stuff in the first place, and I never heard him talk too much about reviewing data tables on toy train lubricating products or vapor pressure parameters.

When you talk to those two engineer friends, ask them if they've ever heard of LaBelle oils, wouldja? Maybe they're "lubrication non grata" in the world of engineering lubricants. 

Different strokes for different folks. With 100 locos and a huge amount of rolling stock you could probably get one of those 55 gallon drums of 10w-30 with a pump handle on top.

I'll have to say though that I've never heard of folks using Lubriplate or LaBelle spending most of their time cleaning out the dried grease and relubing the locos and other things. 

Maybe it's one of those things where it's so incredibly horrible that they black it out of their memories and go on recommending them, even though the removal and re-application of them is going to take up most of your time.

I dunno. Now you've got me thinking I should check their data tables, or perform a vapor pressure test on their skulls. The LaBelle oils probably contain some kind of mind-eating zombification chemicals that have rotted their brains. 

:dunno:


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I am an electrical engineer with 50 years of experience. I don't take people's opinions unless I know the person giving the opinion is qualified to state an opinion. Most of the time we engineers use test data and don't have to use opinions. If lube a loco, I don't want to have to do it again in 3 years, and I sure don't want to have to clean out a load of dried grease and/or gummy oil residue. 

I have a 736 that I lubed some years ago, and the wheels still turn freely. I bought another 736 about 5 years ago that had been lubed with grease, and I had to take this one apart and clean the hardened grease out of it. 

Forget grease and forget LaBelle products unless you can find test data.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Mk10 said:


> If you ever have any questions, feel free to e-mail me at any time.



WOW, are you sure you said everything you meant to say? 
No editing too. :smilie_daumenpos:
It would take me an hour to type that all out, then I probably spend another hour editing it. Then come back an hour later and see something else to edit.

I do not agree with your above sentence, this is a forum and most all can learn from the forum. Discussion is what fuels a forum. Everyone has their own ways to do stuff, and everyone has a right to post what they think.
Keep it public.
Please don't make it private. :smokin:


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

servoguy said:


> I am an electrical engineer with 50 years of experience. I don't take people's opinions unless I know the person giving the opinion is qualified to state an opinion. Most of the time we engineers use test data and don't have to use opinions. If lube a loco, I don't want to have to do it again in 3 years, and I sure don't want to have to clean out a load of dried grease and/or gummy oil residue.
> 
> I have a 736 that I lubed some years ago, and the wheels still turn freely. I bought another 736 about 5 years ago that had been lubed with grease, and I had to take this one apart and clean the hardened grease out of it.
> 
> Forget grease and forget LaBelle products unless you can find test data.



No test data, no discussion. Check.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The king of oil has spoken.:worshippy::worshippy::worshippy::worshippy:

This discussion has been around the table a few times.


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

big ed said:


> WOW, are you sure you said everything you meant to say?
> No editing too. :smilie_daumenpos:
> It would take me an hour to type that all out, then I probably spend another hour editing it. Then come back an hour later and see something else to edit.
> 
> ...



Sorry. 

Force of habit. I always appreciated the courtesy of folks saying, "Call if you have any questions," or "My door is always open." I wasn't trying to sneak the party off to my room. 

I agree wholeheartedly. Nothing beats an open discussion forum where people share their experiences with each other. Everything I've learned about trains I learned from talking to people and hearing how they skinned a particular cat. 

When someone has had real-life experience with something you're trying to figure out and you're lucky enough to run across it (or them if it's in person), it's worth its weight in gold. When you have the opportunity to read how several different people approached something you're trying to do, it allows you to compare their ideas and see what's best for you based on their results and how they went about doing what they did.

I would never try and deprive someone of their right to free speech. I embrace it each and every day. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I assume however that this doesn't apply for the bookmaking and escort scheduling, right? :laugh:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

No problem MK.
Keep it here, like I said everyone can learn from it.

Besides motor oil I use Labelle too, I had a bunch of bottles. Came with junk lots etc.


By the way for something like a worm gear I think confused the servoguy uses something besides motor oil? 
Bruce....do you use motor oil on something like a worm gear too?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think he's strictly motor oil! We will see. I think he has stock in it, oil that is I kid, I kid. I use the motor oil on everything now. The more servoguy suggested it the more sense it made. I put in new locks a few months ago, I made sure to add a bit of motor oil to the tumblers. The stuff in there was sticky allready!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Everyone has an opinion.  I'm an electrical engineer as well, but I never studied motor oil, I was too busy doing electrical and software things.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> By the way for something like a worm gear I think confused the servoguy uses something besides motor oil?
> Bruce....do you use motor oil on something like a worm gear too?


He uses motor oil on them too, that's the one area Bruce and I differ our opinion. I too have disassembled a few locos caked with grease, when I do use grease, it's sparingly unlike Lionel who dropped a blob in the housing. 

Carl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Kwikster said:


> He uses motor oil on them too, that's the one area Bruce and I differ our opinion. I too have disassembled a few locos caked with grease, when I do use grease, it's sparingly unlike Lionel who dropped a blob in the housing.
> 
> Carl



Maybe he uses something like a gear oil in them.

In the beginning the Lionel grease worked OK, it wasn't till years later that they found out it would harden up like cement.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a lot of postwar cars that have Lionel Lube and dirt caked on the wheels. It doesn't come off easily.

I use motor oil for all lube for the trains. I even lube the armatures of the motors and the rollers in the transformers. One caution on lubing the armatures: Make sure the slots are clean as the oil will free any dirt and the dirt will foul the brushes. Not a big deal, but it does require removing the brush plate and cleaning the commutator and brushes again. 

I have considered some other lubricants, but so far have not used them. Valvolene chassis grease with MoS2 should work well rather than Lubriplate as it is a thicker grease which implies a thicker oil which should have a low vapor pressure. The only data on the Internet about its evaporation rate says simply "very slow" which isn't very precise. So until I can run some tests on the grease, I am sticking with motor oil. The MoS2 in the Valvolene chassis grease should reduce friction and plate onto the metal parts. However, in discussions with my engineer experts on lubricants, motor oil also has friction reducers which may have the same effect as the MoS2. More research is required.

One of the problems with MoS2 is that it can stain clothing and carpets, so that is one reason I have not used it so far.


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## dad roadie (Dec 1, 2012)

Hi to all !
Thanks for all the suggestions and ideals! I agree that everyone has an opinion that works for them and thankfully are willing to share this with others on the forum. Like the Fender Strat feel versus a Gibson Les Paul. I'm an Ovation guy myself . One thing I have always found interesting is the amount of train people that are also musicians. Must be something in our genes. 
One last question, what are the forums thoughts on needing to open the motor up to get at and clean the bearings and such. I didn't find any dried up grease in the gearbox area. It actually was still soft but I did clean it out and put fresh in. The motor seems to be running smooth and quiet (I did shoot a couple of drops of Labelle oil and a little Lubriplate into the lube hole. I'm still a little nervous about getting the motor to align correctly when reinstalling it. IF I don't need to take the armature out I would rather not but I don't want to damage the engine. The biggest issue so far was a REALLY dirty armature and brush plate which I cleaned. Once I rebuild the smoke unit ( Heater wire broken) I hope to get this engine running again.
Thanks again to all 
Dad Roadie


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Take a look at the link http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc671p4.pdf both bearing are lubed through the oil hole. I'd never put any for of grease in that location, only oil. The oil will flow along the shaft to the bearing on both ends as the motor horizontal more or less. No armature removal needed to lube those bearings. The motor assembly has two locating pins so alignment is rather easy. The worm gear on the end of the armature is the only gear I ever grease, and then a very thin film.

Carl


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## Mk10 (Jan 1, 2014)

dad roadie said:


> Hi to all !
> Thanks for all the suggestions and ideals! I agree that everyone has an opinion that works for them and thankfully are willing to share this with others on the forum. Like the Fender Strat feel versus a Gibson Les Paul. I'm an Ovation guy myself . One thing I have always found interesting is the amount of train people that are also musicians. Must be something in our genes.
> One last question, what are the forums thoughts on needing to open the motor up to get at and clean the bearings and such. I didn't find any dried up grease in the gearbox area. It actually was still soft but I did clean it out and put fresh in. The motor seems to be running smooth and quiet (I did shoot a couple of drops of Labelle oil and a little Lubriplate into the lube hole. I'm still a little nervous about getting the motor to align correctly when reinstalling it. IF I don't need to take the armature out I would rather not but I don't want to damage the engine. The biggest issue so far was a REALLY dirty armature and brush plate which I cleaned. Once I rebuild the smoke unit ( Heater wire broken) I hope to get this engine running again.
> Thanks again to all
> Dad Roadie


*One thing I have always found interesting is the amount of train people that are also musicians. Must be something in our genes.*

I would say that we are true lovers of beauty; attuned in life to things that are almost perfect expressions of art and harmonious interaction with the world around us.

Most people would say we're a bunch lazy dreamers who sit around acting like children. 

I agree with Carl, there's no real reason to pull the armature out of the motor. A judicious drop of oil in the armature brush cap hole once it's re-attached will get everything inside it lubed just fine.

I'm assuming you've cleaned the brushes, the holes the brushes sit in, and the inside of the armature cap/lid.

Can't recommend you pick up a copy of _Greenberg's Repair and Operating Manual for Lionel Trains, 1945-1969_ enough. It's usually a cold day in Hades before I tell someone, "Oh! You really _must_ buy this!" I hate it when people tell me that. It's always easy for other people to spend your money for you. I remember when guy told me I should go out and buy an arbor press and a pneumatic impact wrench to fix my riding mower. Wow. What a tool.

The Repair and Operating Manual is definitely the exception. You can get copies cheap, or used, or both. There's nothing like it. Worlds open before you. It's like a book of magic. Everything is shown in detail, and easy to understand for people like me. After that it all comes down to technique as to how you do something, and that's when it really gets fun. It allows you to sound knowledgeable enough to "old hats" you might run into at train shows, shops, and train clubs to make them feel like you actually want to learn about how they do things, and they'll be a lot more "talkative" to someone as a result. Plus, you'll understand what they're saying better too.

You have a 671 turbine engine. That's one of the best, if not (arguably) the best engines Lionel made in the postwar era. It's hard to beat that design. It's hard to find an engine that moves that smooth (maybe a sweet early 2332?), is as easy to work on, and that bulletproof. 

*I'm still a little nervous about getting the motor to align correctly when reinstalling it.*

Pshaw! Don't be! 

I've pulled the motor and housing off the frame lots of times just to get down into that well and clean it out where the driveshaft and wormgear meet. These engines were designed to be taken apart, cared for, even replaced if necessary, and parts replaced. Helle, if you really get into it, you can even pull wheels and replace the gear on the axle if you ever need to. There's really no limit to what you can work on and replace on Lionel postwar trains.

In light of that, when you're doing something like re-meshing the shaft to the gear to screw the housing back onto the frame, just _work very slow and carefully._ You've already disassembled it to a large degree, so you don't impress me as a ham-fisted Brutus type that's going to try and show off their biceps when tightening screws on 65 year-old toy trains. That's really all you need to know when working on these things. Be gentle. Take your time. The very second something doesn't feel "right," stop immediately and re-assess the situation.

Just gently put'er in there, and maybe turn the armature gently, or move the train forward to turn the gear. You'll find they'll go together cosy as "little Fonzies" a lot easier than you think. Make sure you're all together and moving smoothly with each other, and simply screw it back onto the frame.

These guys will tell you if things are "meshing" or going back together correctly. If you weren't the kind of person who didn't "listen" for feedback from delicate things you're working on, you probably wouldn't have gotten this far. 

The only bad thing about working on Lionel postwar trains is that it can make you very, very depressed when you compare them to things that are made today. Good Lord. I've fixed toys for people for fun before, and meshing gears, motors, overall design, including the materials of all the above, are absolute dreck. 

Right now I'm finishing a repair on the second of two Lionel CW-80 transformers for a friend. They're recent vintage, made in China, and designed by engineers that could care less about toy trains. Engineers who will never have to be called upon to fix them. They're assembled by Chinese political prisoners who are being brainwashed to hate each and every member of Western Civilization. They are _not_ like working on Lionel postwar trains. 

Each one is a testament to everything that is wrong with the way we (mankind on the whole) build things today. The first one went okay, but the second one...all because someone used too much wire for a small space that is jamming button alignment on printed circuit boards, not to mention the original repair of a hard-soldered one-shot fuse that was locked inside an almost impossible-to-open case. God Help Me. 

"Bother!," said Poo.


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