# Newbie, with lots of questions



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum, but not necessarily new to model trains. I have a silly question to start. I have a layout setup in my basement and I'm starting to look t buying engines. But I'm seeing different kinds like deisel and electric. What is the difference?


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Diesel locomotives have a diesel engine that drives a generator, which supplies electricity to motors in the trucks to drive the locomotive.. Electric engines get their power from overhead lines to run the motors in trucks. By far the most common are diesels, also sometimes referred to as diesel electrics.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

About the only real railroad trains operating today using electric overhead 
are in the NorthEast, mainly some in Pennsylvania but most
in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut and Mass. The high speed Acela
passenger service that runs from Washington DC to Boston through NYC is powered
by overhead electric. There are some electric locomotives that
power freight service in those electrified areas.

Of course, there are now a growing number of commuter light rail and
streetcar systems in the United States, most running on overhead
electric. Some, however use 3rd rail power pickup as do most
subways.

Don


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

So if I just have a regular powering system for the track, which engine am I going to use?


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Aminnich said:


> So if I just have a regular powering system for the track, which engine am I going to use?


Unless you want to model the trains that use the overhead wires, you would only want to buy the diesel locomotives. 
In the modeling world, a loco that has the overhead gantry actually draws power from the tracks while running with the gantry in contact with overhead wires. The overhead wires aren't actually powered in most cases, but they can be if you want to get detailed enough. So you can actually use an electric loco on your tracks without actually having to put in the overhead wires.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Ok that answers that question. Next.... I don't have a dcc system, does that mean I can only run one train at a time?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Are you asking purely for modeling purposes? Assuming that you buy the correct scale and power system (Direct Current vs. Digital Command Control), any model will work on your track, whether it is a model of diesel, steam, or electric. Of course, an electric won't look very realistic running around with its pantograph (what D&L erroneously calls a gantry above) up if there are no overhead wires to contact, but that doesn't bother many people.

Perhaps you could clarify what's confusing you about the available locos.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Aminnich said:


> Ok that answers that question. Next.... I don't have a dcc system, does that mean I can only run one train at a time?


Pretty much, yes, unless you want to get in to a lot of fancy wiring.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I understand the engines now. But I only have dc power not dcc. Is it worth upgrading?


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## Shadowplayer (Oct 31, 2014)

Dont forget Steam power. Always looks awesome to have a nice steam engine to run once and awhile


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

If you plan on running more than one train at a time DCC is indeed worth it.
If you are just starting out and haven't bought any locos it's even more worth it.

DCC is a bit expensive and DCC with sound even more so but it all adds so much more flexibility to even a simple layout it's worth the extra cost as far as I'm concerned. 

I wouldn't even think about running my layout on DC. 

Magic


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

If you're just getting started and haven't bought any locomotives yet, I would go with DCC. You can get some Bachamnn non sound DCC locomotives for under $70. Sound locomotives get quite expensive.

You can buy a set which will come with a DCC controller and EZ track (track and roadbed in one). I might be mistaken but I believe Bachmann is the only one that makes DCC sets.

Or you can buy a DCC locomotive, a controller, some cars and sectional track. I find the Bachmann silver series and Atlas Trainman line to be a good value in cars. They come with metal wheels and roll very nicely. You want cars with metal wheels. I converted my existing rolling stock from platic wheels to metal whels and they roll much more freely.

I just converted to DCC and am enjoying the flexibility it gives me in that I can control each locomotive separately. It also makes for simpler wiring on a layout if you want to run more than 1 train. You don't need to break your track into blocks and hook up contollers for the blocks. You just hook up the power from your DCC controller to the track and off you go to run multiple locomotives on the same track.

You can see some threads I posted in the DCC forum on my experience converting from DC to DCC.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

sorry i have not been posting for awhile. My layout is under construction as of right now, basically table with lots ideas, but nothing ready to go. I have a track plan, i am using sectional brass track. I have the DC wiring done for half of the layout. The layout is just an L shape made of two 4 x 8 pieces of plywood with 2in foam board on top. With this size layout, do u think that it is worth going DCC? I do have a total of 4 engines (not real expense ones) and probably 30 cars (all plastic wheels). What do you think, go for DCC or stay DC?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

By all means, go DCC. The operating fun is 100% more with
DCC, especially if you run more than one train. The wiring
is 100% more simple with DCC. Reread all of
the DCC discussions you can find. You can buy a decoder to
convert most HO DC locomotives for under 30.00. Plenty of
assistance to help you do it here on the Forum.

BUT...try to replace that Brass track. Code 100 Nickel silver flex track will
give you the most trouble free operations. Brass will have
electrical conductivity problems as time goes on.

Don


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I dont like that BUT.

I really dont want to replace all my track, i'd rather install more power points along the track. So if i need the silver track to run DCC, it is not going to happen, too much money for something that i would just be upgrading. You know what I mean?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I sympathize with your objection to the BUT....

HOWEVER, Don is right in that the brass track is much more maintenance intensive tha nickel silver would be. If you do decide to go DCC, it's much more sensitive to connectivity issues than DC. We're not talking jumpers so much as we are oxidation products on the track, and if ypu're using brass, ther's no jumper fix for that.

So, should you go DCC? It's not a layout size issue (DC or DCC work just as well on a 4x8 as a 400 x 800). Wiring for DCC is simpler, but it's really a question of operations. How many of those 4 locomotives do you want to run simultaneously? If the answer is one, and you don't mind wiring the track to electrically isolate the 3 non-operating ones, then DCC is a waste of money. If you'd like to operate more than one at a time, or even just have the other three available without tucking the first into an isolated siding, than DCC really is the way to go.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

I inherited a brass-track 4x8 DC HO layout. I wanted to keep the brass track because I like the track plan, and the previous owner skillfully soldered the track together -- not just the rail joiners, but also the mini-gaps between the rails -- perfectly smooth.

I did have to replace the turnouts. They were worn and loose which caused derailments. But I saved most of the track.

Yes, brass track does need to be cleaned fairly often. But, I have a cleaning routine that goes pretty fast. I find that when the track is clean, there is no noticeable difference in the engine speed between the brass and nickel silver sections. If there is a difference, it is less than the slight difference that I notice between the speed on straight track vs. curved track -- due to the greater rolling resistance on curved track.

But remember that I am working with a DC layout. I little little about DCC.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I am going to stick with my brass track and I think I'm going to also stay with my DC unit.... With the way my layout is, it would be cool to be able to run more than one train, but it looks like it ought be too costly... Ik this is an expensive hobby, but I'm not too keen on spending money on something I basically already have.


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## Shadowplayer (Oct 31, 2014)

Just remember, the money spent now is equipment you have for later


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Really, this hobby isn't any more expensive than a lot of others. Jeez, if I ride 18 holes of golf with my 3 boys, that's $150; taking the family to a decent restaurant for dinner, another $120, movies and snacks for the 5 of us, $75. Heck, we stay home and I've already saved enough to buy a cheap DCC set.

it's all about priorities.

DCC really isn't that expensive, especially if you start at the intro level and gradually expand.

We're also not saying that you can't use brass track, just making sure you understand the tradeoffs. You've asked what we WOULD do, and we've told you. You don't have to take our advice. We just don't want you to get so frustrated that you quit the hobby.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Ok so I can use the brass track with a DCC unit... Ok that helps. When u say intro, what exactly dos that mean. What does a DCC intro unit do? How expense/cheap could I get a DCC unit for? Sorry for all the question, but I like learning from the best.


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## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

Yes you can use brass track with a DCC unit, but just remember, it's more maintenance in cleaning. If that is okay with you, yes you can use the brass track you already have. The trains themselves don't care what kind of metal the track is (steel, nickle silver, brass). All that matters, is what amount of maintenance you are willing to put up with. You still have to clean the track, no matter what material it's made from. Many things in this hobby are often a trade off, between convenience and cost. That is your choice to make. Just like, what kinds of trains to run (steam, diesel, electric), what brands, etc.

The cheapest DCC units, are quite basic, but might be good enough for your needs. You should be able to get a Bachmann EZ DCC unit, or the MRC 2000 DCC unit for between 50 and 100 dollars, perhaps less money if you are lucky. Sometimes you can find it used for 25 dollars. 

Just remember, those units are quite basic, and are really an introductory model to DCC. They can only run a few trains at the same time, and have limited programming abilities. They basically allow you to run a few trains at the same time, control the speed and direction of the train, turn on and off the lights, and maybe control a few other features. 

More advanced DCC units have more programming abilities to fine tune the engines, control more features (including full sounds), and run more trains at the same time, control switches (turnouts), etc. 

You can pick up cheap used DCC locomotives for 40 dollars and up. Better DCC locomotives will be more money.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

So I will look into the bachmann ex dcc, any other products similar?


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Just spent Some time learning the bachmann ex dcc and think I'm going to get it...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

One caveat, though. If you buy the EZ Command, that's it. If you want to upgrade your capabilities, you have to throw it out and start over. It's also proprietary, su you'll have to use their decoders (the little circuit board that goes in the locomotive) as well. Bachmann Dynamis is better, in that it's a full featured system and can use anybody's decoders, but it isn't expandable either. If you buy the lowest priced unit from one of the big 4 (Digitrax, Lenz, MRC, or NCE) you can easily upgrade them by adding power boosters, additional cabs (controllers), wireless adapters, and so on. Everything between the power strip and the rails has to be from the same manufacturer, but decoders, reversing circuits, and so forth are interchangeable.

Again, this is not pressure to buy one or the other, but full disclosure so you can make the decision that suits your wants and budget. And beware, this crap is addictive. You say, "I'll never need more than ten locos or one controller", and next thing you know you're forking over your hard earned dollars for an upgrade.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Ok, u have good points. The Bachmann ex dcc seems like it would work, but knowing me, Ik that I will ant to upgrade everything (wireless being the first). Is their a dcc system that is like $100 that I could parade later to make wireless and possibility add more engines to it. Wit the Bachmann ex dcc, the 9 setting should be fine. So if the dcc system could be wireless and hold 9 engines that would be perfect. Thanks for all ur help!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I don't think you're going to find a new in the box set for $100. Even an EZ Command will run you more than that, plus about $20 per locomotive for an inexpensive decoder. However, many retailers offer pretty deep discounts, and there is a fairly healthy market for used or factory reconditioned stuff. Just be careful buying used from a private party.

it's a bit of a haul from PA, especially the western part, but if you can make it to the Amherst Train Show in Springfield, MA the last weekend in Jan, all the major manufacturers will be there, and they love to demonstrate their stuff. You might even find a used one for sale.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I won't be able to make it to the show in MA. I looked at different dcc system, but the Bachmann ex dcc still seems best. Do u have suggestions for a dcc system that I could upgrade to wireless in the future?


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

I posted some info on your DCC thread.

Here are 2 internet train suppliers that have great prices and service. Many on here will vouch for them.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/

http://www.trainworld.com/


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

The DCC choice usually is dominated by what people around you have. If you belong to a club for instance. 
The two that are the most popular are NCE and digitrax. Any DCC decoder will work with any DCC command system. If your headed to DCC, you might want to consider one of these. 

Another consideration is Rail Pro. This one is DC based, but acts like DCC. It is focused on wireless control. It is set up to be also used with battery operated systems. This dead rail approach is likely the direction things are going. 
It is clear that a lot of the conductivity issues, particularly with DCC, are caused by the high electrical power that goes with DCC systems. Wheel and track "cleanng" are more frequent with DCC. There are ways around the problem, but it is still maintenance.
Larry
Check out my blog: www.llxlocomotives.com


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Digitrax, NCE, and MRC all have a starter set priced in the high 100's or low 200's MSRP. All of these allow the use of any decoder on the market and are completely expandable. The reason I suggested that you attend a show is that it would allow you to get a hands on trial. My personal opinion is that the MRC systems have better human engineering -- that is, their features are more user friendly. I much prefer buttons and dials and all features on the cab, but this is a highly personal thing and others will definitely have their own opinions.

I started with a slightly used MRC Prodigy Express and have expanded it with a booster, 3 more cabs, and the wireless conversion kit. I have been extremely satisfied with it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are wireless throttles and there are wireless throttles.

Be sure to check the communications method of any 'wireless' controller
you consider. Some are truly wireless using a radio frequency (rf) 
system. They are most convenient. Others use an infra red method and must
be in sight of the receiver when in use. Obviously, there will be
many times your command would be missed unless properly 'aimed'.

There are also new blue tooth and other wireless systems using
a cell phone. You might peruse the various threads in the DCC forum
for discussions of these but be aware this is very new technology and
is not yet fully vetted.

As a Bachmann DCC owner I can tell you that for a small to medium
size layout it will serve you well. 

While not wireless, Bachmann DCC can accomodate hand held
controllers that plug into jacks you can mount around your
layout. You can start a train with a hand held at point A,
the train will continue running when you pull the plug to
go to the jack at point B, and so on.

Also, should you decide to upgrade 
for a more advanced system there is a ready market for the Bachmann
DCC system. You would not need to change the locos. They would
continue to operate through whatever brand upgrade you buy. You could
also consider buying in the used market and save $.

Don


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## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

If you bought the Bachmann EZ Command, it's not upgradable to wireless. You're forced to have the wires in the back of the controller. But as Don has mentioned, with the Bachmann EZ Command system, you can have a couple of the hand held controllers, and plug them into the jacks Bachmann makes for that purpose. There is also an optional 5 AMP power booster made by Bachmann for their EZ Command system, to allow you to run more trains. Normally the EZ Command can only run on average 2 or 3 average HO locomotives at a time, because it only has a 1 AMP rating. 

The starter sets from MRC (Prodigy Express), Digitrax (Zephyr) and NCE (Power Cab) all have at least 2.0 or 2.5 Amps. That would allow you to run more trains at the same time, before needing any optional power boosters. Plus with all three brands, you have wired and wireless throttle choices. They are more upgradable, and have more features. Of course these brands will be more money then the Bachmann EZ Command.

EDIT: NCE (Power Cab) is 2.0 Amps, not the 2.5 Amps I originally posted before. I have corrected mistake above.


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Hey guys, again sorry for not responding for awhile. I have decided just to go with the Bachmann ex dcc command. It just seems like a good cheap start for a beginner. I also found that I could buy a system with an engine for $50 more (which I thought was a good deal). I will prob buy the booster later on. So now to more onto the next question

Dcc wiring.... I have 50% of dc layout wired, can I just use the same wiring or do I have to change it all up?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

In most cases you can use your existing DC wiring. Since
you have some wiring to do, consider using a buss to
feed track drops every 6 feet or so around your layout.

If you have a system of isolated blocks with panel switches
that can select from 2 or more power packs you
would simply Disconnect the power packs. Connect the output of
your New Bachmann DCC controller to the INPUT buss
of your panel switches. Set them all for the connection
you have used.

You would then also turn all of your 'block' switches to
ON if they are separate from the power pack selectors.

Now, if you want to also be able to use the old DC locos,
you could connect a Double Pole, Double throw switch
in the INPUT circuit. That would let you select, DC or
DCC. 

Guard against permitting any DC only loco to sit idle on the
track when DCC is connected. It will eventually burn out
the motor.

One caveat: If you see that there is a wide variation of loco
speed around the layout when you are running DCC, it may be you would need
to recheck your under table wiring to make sure that you
have a good feed to every part of the layout. Likely, tho, if
your trans rain smoothly on DC, they should do the same when
DCC.

Don


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## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

So like I said I have 50% of the wiring done, but where it isn't done their is an incline, should the power supply points be more frequent? And for a flat surface, how frequent would be power the track?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I usually put feeders up from the bus every 6-8 feet. It doesn't matter whether there is an incline or not.


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