# Changes at spring York 2020



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Reported by MartyE on the other forum. Spring 2020 will be Friday and Saturday only, Oct will remain the same.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Reported by MartyE on the other forum. Spring 2020 will be Friday and Saturday only, Oct will remain the same.


A sign of change perhaps. Lower attendance, fewer vendors, a hobby of decline. 

I think, hobbies as we have known and loved, and partaken in, are our past. Do young folks have "hobbies"? My grand children are all about organized sports, and their cell phones and iPads. There is no interest or time for hobbies.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

BobS said:


> A sign of change perhaps. Lower attendance, fewer vendors, a hobby of decline.
> 
> I think, hobbies as we have known and loved, and partaken in, are our past. Do young folks have "hobbies"? My grand children are all about organized sports, and their cell phones and iPads. There is no interest or time for hobbies.


No disrespect, but the hobby in decline is a broken record to me. and Frankly I don't believe it. Yes modern tech has killed the train show and the local hobby store. Do people join groups like the TCA anymore? No. Yet Lionel keeps stating they had record sales last year. I see kids galore at my local train show every year. My son runs the trains almost every day keeping the rails polished. 

Things ebb and flow, go up and down. Remember the dark days of the late sixties through the 80's. I don't think things are anywhere as bad as when I was a kid. Will we reach the peak like we did in the post war years and in the early 2000's. I believe someday. Maybe not tomorrow but someday.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Could this be the beginning of the end for twice a year York meets?
If Saturday remains a half day as it currently is then eliminating Thursday is equivalent to cutting available selling time by about 1/4th. How many dealers and TCA members will be willing to do the work involved and pay the expenses needed to travel to, set up, and sell their products for only 1-1/2 days? Also, if the meet's duration is shortened what happens to TCA revenue? Will the number of sellers decrease and therefore the number of tables bought decline? Less revenue and also charging for 1 day less.
Perhaps they will do what Allentown does and have an early bird admission price for Friday?
BTW, JUST A THOUGHT but would placing this in the train shows, events sub forum get it more viewer hits?


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

_


superwarp1 said:



No disrespect, but the hobby in decline is a broken record to me. and Frankly I don't believe it. Yes modern tech has killed the train show and the local hobby store. Do people join groups like the TCA anymore? No. Yet Lionel keeps stating they had record sales last year. I see kids galore at my local train show every year. My son runs the trains almost every day keeping the rails polished. 

Things eb and flow, go up and down. Remember the dark days of the late sixties through the 80's. I don't think things are anywhere as bad as when I was a kid. Will we reach the peak like we did in the post war years and in the early 2000's. I believe someday. Maybe not tomorrow but someday.

Click to expand...

_It is not a matter of respect, or disrespect. I was only offering an observation and a few questions. We all have opinions and are entitled to them. You have answered a few of my queries and offered your opinions. I do respect that. And, it's not a broken record, it just skips and repeats now and again.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> Could this be the beginning of the end for twice a year York meets?
> If Saturday remains a half day as it currently is then eliminating Thursday is equivalent to cutting available selling time by about 2/5ths. How many dealers and TCA members will be willing to do the work involved and pay the expenses needed to travel to, set up, and sell their products for only 1-1/2 days? Also, if the meet's duration is shortened what happens to TCA revenue? Will the number of sellers decrease and therefore the number of tables bought decline? Less revenue and also charging for 1 day less.
> Perhaps they will do what Allentown does and have an early bird admission price for Friday?


The decision is simply a reflection of reality. There are already fewer dealers and attendees. Revenue is already down. Most likely Spring will be canceled altogether in a few years unless they find a new venue. I have already made the decision to skip April in the future based on last Aprils show. Instead we will make an effort to do the Big E. That is the only show I am aware of that is actually growing.

Pete


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

The National O Gauge train clubs ( TCA, LOTS, LCCA, TTOS ) are struggling to keep their membership stable. Even if Lionel states that they had record sales last year does not mean that they had a profitable year. I would be surprised that any CFO at a private company would allow anything but that type of a positive statement. The O Gauge hobby will be around for quite a while, but I think the years of growth are behind them. As they say, that train left the station.

Bill


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## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

models hobbies are a dying breed now. mostly elderly folks with nothing but time. young people want live fun phones teck stuff and sex , parties, bars, to them its boring . boose.sex and rock n roll hahahahahahahahahahahaha or is that god awful rap sounds.


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## jay jay (Aug 30, 2016)

There is nothing wrong with "positive mental attitude", but ignoring the demographics of this hobby is a form of "whistling past the graveyard". Fact: The folks that loved trains/model trains are dying off in great numbers, and are not being replaced by equal or greater numbers of new hobbyists. Fact: Trains are not as ubiquitous as they were 60 years ago, nor are people as aware of them as they were back then. Fact (well, my opinion, anyway):Trains were more interesting 60 years ago, i.e. all types of steam locomotives and mixed freights and different roads varnish. Cool depots, towers and roundhouses everywhere. Cool semaphores and signal systems. Back then, you could see all this operating IN REAL LIFE. Today, you have stack trains and unit trains and diesels that most people can't distinguish one from another. Depots, towers, roundhouses and semaphores gone. To many people, modernity in railroading is boring. 

YORK and the EDTCA needed to adjust to reality, and are doing so.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I like the change back to Friday and Saturday. 

IMO that was the best configuration, Friday was the big day, and Saturday was ok for the first few hours, with free donuts before opening, and some good “I am not hauling all that home” pricing.

Thursday diluted the Friday crowd and made both days look sparse, also the noon start left covering the meet in one day hard. Plus, Friday was nice to make a three day weekend. Glad Thursday is gone, hopefully for good.

The joint will surely be jumping on Friday’s in April with both (previous years) Thursdays and Fridays visitors combined into one day. Put curb feelers on your scooters.:laugh:

I hope Fridays is members only.

MYGA!!!! 
(Make York Great Again) :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Craignor said:


> I like the change back to Friday and Saturday.
> 
> IMO that was the best configuration, Friday was the big day, and Saturday was ok for the first few hours, with free donuts before opening, and some good “I am not hauling all that home” pricing.
> 
> ...


It will definitely be a throwback to years ago. I'm sort of looking forward to it.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

BobS said:


> It is not a matter of respect, or disrespect. I was only offering an observation and a few questions. We all have opinions and are entitled to them. You have answered a few of my queries and offered your opinions. I do respect that. And, it's not a broken record, it just skips and repeats now and again.


:thumbsup: I just get flustered when I hear it's the end of the hobby.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Craignor said:


> I like the change back to Friday and Saturday....
> 
> I hope Fridays is members only.
> 
> ...


Craignor, I also like the returning to it being a Friday-Saturday event but to me, limiting Fridays to members only rather than to both members and the public would be a mistake and counterproductive to it's original purpose of encouraging the public to attend York. I can't imagine many people who'd be willing to pay and come to a Saturday show that's basically open only during the morning?


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

ogaugeguy said:


> Craignor, I think limiting Fridays to members only would be a big mistake and be counterproductive it's original purpose of having the general public to visit York. I wonder how many people would be willing to pay to pay and come to a Saturday show that's only open in the morning?


I think a Members Only day is a nice perk for Members. We pay to be members, and getting first crack at all the deals starting at 9:00 Friday is cool, kind of like a shotgun start, as well as associating with the other Members. Friday, York should be our private Club house.:laugh:

Saturday can be for the Public. They can come, kick the tires, If they like what they see, they can join on the spot, pay dues, right then, and enter as a Member.

I think you have to give Members something unique like a Members Only day as a membership reward. If there is no reward for being a Member, we all can quit and come back as the Public, save a few bucks, and not lose anything.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Has the public should up in any numbers yet? Has the eastern division been successful in getting the word out?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I only attended one meet, which was last October. I have no reference, to what the Old Days were like, with April's meet, and what it was like years ago, or for that matter the October meets. I would like to hear from an Old Timer, that can compare then and now. In my opinion, the April meet will eventually be eliminated, if it goes to just two days, which in reality would be a day and a half, with vendors packing up early. I am fortunate that I don't have far to travel, but for some that typically attend, that live farther away, is it going to be worth the travel time, to only have what amounts to 1 day.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

My first York was in 2003. Back then it was very hard to get a hotel, most were booked well before the previous York. No Thursdays yet and the bandit meets were huge and busy. Way over whelming to say the least. I went in 2003 and 2004 both Octobers, a friend and I had my truck full of trains it was that crazy. Fast forward to 2015 my first and only April York with my son this time. Bandit meets a shell of what I saw in 2004. Now had Thursdays, the place was still packed but it had a different feel than the Oct meet. I'll never do a April meet again, even before the announced changes. If it goes back to a swap meet that's fine. I'm betting OCT will become more busy, making it more worth while for the importers and vendors to show up. Might even see the return of the difficulty of finding a place to stay. It is the start the the train season anyway, is for me.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

IMHO, I think Friday and Saturday in April is trial balloon from the EDTCA. 

If the change works out better financially, attendance wise, and the vendors and dealers are happy, I think future Octobers will go to back to the Friday and Saturday format.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Interesting that the EDTCA would make this change even though they've already posted dates for 2020 that would have included Thursday - Saturday for both the April and October shows. So given that these kinds of changes aren't made lightly, the numbers for April this year must have really missed the mark. And all else being equal, the EDTCA didn't wanna take that same kind of hit again in 2020.

As for what this means to me personally? I don't know yet. I've already been thinking of making York a once-a-year trek anyway. And October is my preferred month since it's -- for all practical purposes -- the kick-off to the year's Thanksgiving and Christmas Holiday Seasons, which are also synonymous with toy train season ramping up. So there's a general mood of excitement in the air that goes hand-in-hand with prepping for the Holidays.

That being said... I hate crowds. So in that regard, Thursday's "member only" day has been my preferred day to attend York -- almost since Thursday was added YEARS ago. I almost can't remember York being just a Friday/Saturday affair, but I do recall the Long Island bus on Friday needing to get an early start around 4-5AM so attendees could arrive at the Fairgrounds when doors opened at 9AM. Even though I never lived on Long Island to ride that bus, I just remember the fact it meant an early start for those who lived east of Manhattan. 

From a purely selfish perspective, I LOVED Thursday's starting at 12Noon because it made for a more easy-going drive AFTER morning rush-hour on the PA Turnpike all these years. I could leave the house a little before 10AM and still pull into the Fairgrounds parking lot as the doors were about to open. And if I were arranging York deliveries for a couple of train sales, I could leave the house by 9AM... get to York around 11AM... and still have an hour to take care of business before the doors opened. And even if York officially whittles down to once a year in October, I'm hoping they still keep a Thursday-Friday-Saturday schedule.

I know some people aren't fans of Thursday. But realistically speaking.... if York DOES become a once-a-year event in October, I don't think Friday and half-day Saturday will be enough motivation for the big dealers to make the trip anymore. They'll gladly forgo April, but the raw sales numbers need to be there for them to still show up in October. As I mentioned the other day in a different post, the dealers aren't getting any younger. So if they're gonna make the trek, they basically need to at least have onsite York sales generate close to their daily online, mail-order and in-store sales. Otherwise, WHY even make the trip to York? You just can't fight the math. So Thursday-Friday-Saturday might help them get there.

Of course, if York eventually becomes an October-only event, and big dealers don't make an appearance (i.e., if it's just a Friday and half-day Saturday event), then I suppose York COULD return back to its roots of being a "train meet" for TCA members rather than an industry "trade show". HOWEVER, even THAT isn't a guaranteed motivator, because THAT only worked for toy train enthusiasts *back in the day when the Internet didn't even exist yet*. Today, people have more avenues to purchase trains all-year-around than they could have ever imagined. So the pure "need" for York as it existed pre-2000 is nowhere to be found anymore.

Aside from the social aspect of meeting old and new friends once (or twice) a year to talk trains -- which is certainly a strong motivating factor for lots of folks (myself included) -- we certainly no longer "need" York to be the mecca that feeds our penchant to always buy more trains. If the latter were the prime objective of attending York, then color York already living on borrowed time -- no matter how many times a year the event is held (or how many days per show) -- because dealers and sellers bombard all of us 24x7 with sale after sale after sale all year long. In short, there's never a time throughout the year anymore when SOMEBODY ISN'T HAVING A SALE. So by the time York rolls around now, a lot of buying power has been diluted long before attendees pull into the Fairgrounds parking lot.

Interesting times for sure... and never a dull moment. 

David


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Has this been set in stone? The Eastern Division website has Thursday - Saturday listed for April & October through 2023. I'm sure that time has had to been reserved before they could publish it.

I'm not sure how I feel about this yet. It's a lot different now than when I was an hour and ten minute drive from the Fairgrounds. Now it's a four and a half hour flight and an hour and a half car ride to York. Not sure if a day and a half event is worth the trip.

I remember the days before the Meet was held on Thursday. It was still great because Friday and Saturday morning was all we knew! And I lived locally. When the Meet was expanded to Thursdays I thought it was great. More time to browse and shop and more time to socialize with all the great train people I was meeting and becoming friends with. To me less time means more of a rush to shop and less time to meet and chat with friends. I would save some travel points for the hotel with one less day but I'd rather have the time for shopping and socializing. I love the atmosphere at York and I enjoy all the time available for the Meet.

David mentioned all the internet sales we get. As a purely financial aspect it is easier to buy online but I'd miss the interactions with vendors and friends.. But we only get those sales alerts from the big dealers. You don't see any of that coming from the cottage industry vendors we see at York, most of whom we would never have known about except for their York Meet participation. What happens to those guys without being able to put their products in front of most of the people that buy from them?

I've been reading about the decline of this great hobby for the last 25 years but it's still going, just in different ways. Time will tell what will happen with the Meet but I believe it will endure as long as there's enough membership to support it. 

I'm glad I bought a ton of trains over the years that as long as there's electricity I'll be able to enjoy the hobby! And when all the hobby shops go out of business and everyone else throws their trains away, I'll still be runnin'! Come and run trains with me!


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

I'm just not all that upset about this. Back in the day I would drive out in the early morning on Friday and return Friday night to and from Pittsburgh. ABout a 3.5 hour drive.

Now with this change I will most likely travel Thursday and stay over and return Friday. 

Like David it maybe time to go to once a year and October is also my preferred meet date. I love the fall so I enjoy the drive and weather.

I also agree that York could go back to it's roots as a local TCA meet. It's a victim of its own success. The meet grew in popularity to a point where it drew large vendors and manufacturers. Maybe too big.

As far as the public, unless the meet were to move to a bigger population area, the public won't make an appearance like the numbers they get at some of the shows in the bigger metropolitan areas. People don't really travel more than 25-30 miles for a train show IMO. 

Anyways, I'll be there in April ready to enjoy myself. I support the EDTCA because they have provided years of fun. Based on the fact they polled the vendors and member sellers tells me that they are listening to the folks. Maybe not the attendees but those who have to transport the "stuff". It may not sit well with everyone but at least they are not sitting on their hands anymore and in the last few years have tried.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

More than a few folks see removing Thursday from York as detrimental since it will then become a 1-1/2 day show. If 1-1/2 days is too short, then instead of Saturday continuing as a close early partial day, make it a FULL length day like Friday. By doing that York will then be a complete 2 day long show.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Why is everyone assuming with a two day show everyone will continue to pack up early on Saturday? With three days many are tired by Saturday afternoon not to mention most buyers have left the building but with only two days that may no longer be the case.
Those who remember two day shows in past may care to comment on Saturday activity. 
Anyone commenting that this is the beginning of the decline of York hasn't been paying attention to what has been going on for the last 20 years. I have only been attending for about 15 years and every show since the first has gotten smaller.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Every train show has its own personality. But if you wanna see where York is heading, I'd suggest taking a look at the Allentown ATMA shows in February and November: one is ahead of York, and the other one comes on the heels of York. And they're both essentially "train meets" -- not industry trade shows, per se.

York's biggest difference over Allentown is both in the sheer size of occupying so many halls on the York Fairgrounds property and in what Brian had mentioned in terms of the number of cottage industry sellers that make the trek to York each show. Allentown has very little of these folks, and even some of the big dealers no longer attend Allentown -- just a few big dealers now within an hour's drive. THAT and lots of individual sellers seem to be the right mix for Allentown, and the show is still thriving.  

It's been a good several years now that Charlie Ro relinquished his table space at Allentown to Nicholas Smith Trains, because the ride was simply getting too much for Charlie, Sr. And after October York, Charlie prefers to stay close to "the store" for the Christmas Holiday season anyway. That's just a business model that seems to work for him.

And for the first time last April, Grzyboski Trains opted out of Allentown in favor of heading out to Michigan (if I recall correctly) for an appearance at one of the WGHOT shows. What that bodes for future appearances at Allentown remains to be seen, but I expect we'll continue to still see Grzyboski Trains for at least ONE of the Allentown shows each year.

I guess I'm just mentioning all of this... because if we look around, we'll see changes have been occurring all around us for quite some time. We're fortunate to still have such toy train events like Allentown and York in the first place, but they'll also never be everything to everyone. So I guess we should all just enjoy them as much as we can while they're still around -- in whatever format their organizers choose to present them to us.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Why is everyone assuming with a two day show everyone will continue to pack up early on Saturday? ...


In that regard, York is a victim of it's immense drawing power within the hobby itself. Whether two days or three days, Saturday afternoon was ALWAYS slow. So sellers began to creatively start packing the trucks early so to speak -- sometimes even by 12 Noon as they mentally checked out. And the public address lady would always chastise those vendors whose booths started to look too empty too soon. That was part of the York "tradition" as far back as I can remember -- and my first York was back in 1991. 

This phenomenon doesn't seem to happen at Allentown. But then again, Allentown is drawing vendors from no more than an hour's drive away -- perhaps 2 hours max. Whereas York is drawing sellers from up and down the Eastern Seaboard and into the Midwest.

Just a casual observation.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I know we try to pack a lot of the stuff in the Henning's booth well before close on Saturday, and we're not alone! There just isn't anyone left by the time the closing bell is rung. I think I can live with two days in the spring, the fall meet is always a better show anyway.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I know we try to pack a lot of the stuff in the Henning's booth well before close on Saturday, and we're not alone! There just isn't anyone left by the time the closing bell is rung. I think I can live with two days in the spring, the fall meet is always a better show anyway.


Just don't forget my pre-orders.:smokin::smilie_daumenpos:

Just for ha ha, the Amherst show in Western Mass the last weekend in January to gauge the health of the hobby. The attendance is steady at around 20,000 for the weekend over the last few years. Yes it's a multiple gauge show with mostly HO but the place is busy. Lionel, MTH, and a few others think it's worth attending.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I will someday make it to Amherst, but it's a long pull, and I don't really do HO.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The Big E is the best show to attend if you are building a layout.
Many more vendors selling scenery, structures, basic building materials. Scenic Express doing nearly non stop clinics where you can actually build and keep the item they show you how to make on the spot.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hmm... Well, I'm building a layout.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Hmm... Well, I'm building a layout.


And you can stop by my house and run trains


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

How's the guest room?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Hmm... Well, I'm building a layout.


Its well worth the drive. We have been lucky the past few years with little or no snow but it can be pretty dicey having to drive through two snow belts, south of Lake Ontario and the Berkshires. East of the hills its shouldn't be too bad.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's always dicey up there in the dead of winter, probably the prime reason I have never seriously considered it. I got caught once in a storm going to Boston in January, it wasn't fun at all! hwell:


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> How's the guest room?


We'll fluff the pillows for you.

Weather looks bad don't come. I've only seen one big snow storm in the twenty years I've attended. But, being twenty minutes away and with a 4X4 I say bring it. More for me if attendance is down due to weather.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, it just means I won't be going to a shorter meeting. Change is inevitable I suppose and in a world of internet and no new big malls (and fewer old ones) anymore, maybe only one York a year is on the horizon.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

superwarp1 said:


> We'll fluff the pillows for you.
> 
> Weather looks bad don't come. I've only seen one big snow storm in the twenty years I've attended. But, being twenty minutes away and with a 4X4 I say bring it. More for me if attendance is down due to weather.


I remember 15 years ago or so going to a train show at the Dulles Expo Center from my home North of Baltimore. I was bringing a SUV load of modules and trains, to a 7:00 setup, we had had 18” or more of snow overnight. I was out early 5AM with the plows, my SUV did a 360 on the Dulles Toll Road, I stayed on the road, I was still moving, and heading in the right direction, no damage, so I just kept on going. Channeling my inner NASCAR.

Needless to say I was one of the few who made it to the setup on time.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I read yesterday that the Farmers Almanac is predicting a snowy winter for the East coast.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Millstonemike said:


> I read yesterday that the Farmers Almanac is predicting a snowy winter for the East coast.


Maybe they will get it right this year, then again maybe not. They predicted the same thing last year and it turned out to be just an average winter with below average snowfall. 
Hotels/motels are plentiful in the area. No need to book ahead, just check the forecast a few days before.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

New Casino across the river with a new hotel. As Pete stated, plenty of places to stay. I'll be posting more about the Amherst show when we get close.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Norton said:


> Maybe they will get it right this year, then again maybe not. They predicted the same thing last year and it turned out to be just an average winter with below average snowfall.
> Hotels/motels are plentiful in the area. No need to book ahead, just check the forecast a few days before.
> 
> Pete


According to this *article*, they got last years prediction correct.

I had little snow in NNJ but I just missed the lion's share.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Millstonemike, I live down, just outside Trenton, and you need to take a look at a map of NJ. The center of the state is where the upper & lower half bend, kind of like “>”, which I jokingly call the “Deflector Shield”. A lot of heavy storms go either north or south of us, and get close to nothing. It’s just a personal joke in our family.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

teledoc said:


> Millstonemike, I live down, just outside Trenton, and you need to take a look at a map of NJ. The center of the state is where the upper & lower half bend, kind of like “>”, which I jokingly call the “Deflector Shield”. A lot of heavy storms go either north or south of us, and get close to nothing. It’s just a personal joke in our family.


I always said the same but used the Raritan River as the divider.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Mike, it’s just where the state bends, which is where I am located. The usual joke is, “ Well it missed us again!!”


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Well it would seem those of you looking to step back in time and watch York return to a Friday/Saturday event may have gotten your wish.

According to the EDTCA York Meet website, here is what is currently posted as dates for upcoming York Meets. According to this information, the 3-day York Meets AFTER the upcoming October 2019 meet are now history. See the screenshot below:










I will most certainly be cutting back my attendance to -- at most -- October shows only... and very likely only a day trip on Friday at that. And we'll see how that "feels" after October 2020. If it's not worth it, I'll bag the TCA altogether, since the increased annual dues just to attend one York show per year may not be worth it to me personally. And regardless, I was planning to bag April York shows anyway starting in 2020.

As I said in a prior post, I had really gotten accustomed to the casual atmosphere of light Thursday traffic -- but that's strictly a selfish view which I knew was living on borrowed time. Additionally, it most certainly is NOT a view from which business decisions at large are made. Alas... York cannot be all things to all people. And the direction it's heading -- based on the latest EDTCA website posts -- isn't the direction of interest for me. But that's OK, because I have almost 30 years of York in my rear-view mirror. Allentown ain't a bad alternate experience (twice a year at that) in a world that's forever changing as we speak. And I don't need to be a TCA member to attend Allentown shows. So in retrospect, I'm very happy to have experienced York when I did for nearly 30 consecutive years. The real challenge for the TCA as an organization will be to keep its membership levels from trending downward -- which was happening anyway through the course of Mother Nature. Now, I believe this trend will accelerate somewhat as some folks drop out IF they effectively plan on attending York only once a year AND conclude that's not worth the annual TCA membership.

Nobody said life was gonna be easy. 

David


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Well, who knows? Since the ED made this change by listening to the table holders wishes, maybe attendance will go UP. I can’t imagine they’d do this to lower attendance and membership.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well let’s make this last three day York in October, one for the record books. I’m leaving like at 5 am Thursday to get to York by noon. Looking forward to meeting a lot of you. Dinner at the Olive Garden. Then have to get on the road early Friday for strasburg for a date with 611. Have tickets with my son for a cab tour, blow the whistle and then a ride. After back to York for more fun. Then if I miss anything a quick visit Saturday AM. On the way home a visit to steam town.. so let’s party likes it’s 1999:laugh:


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Just tell me when to be there.

I understand David's view but I also use York to get away from work, daily grind, and just to relax among friends. I'll use Thursday as a leisurely travel day and maybe visit a few bandit meets if they are still around. Check in to the hotel and have a good meal and be ready for Friday.

Friday will be the only day for me and I'll head back home after 5 for the 3-4 hour drive.

I used to do York early Friday morning travel, do the meet on Friday, and return home late that night all in 1 day. I'm too old for that so Thursday will still be my overnight stay. 

Well if the Legacy meeting wasn't dead before, it is now. The EDTCA made the decision easier.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

This won't change my York visits, they'll just be a bit shorter. I view York as more of a social event than anything else, and I see and get to chat with a lot more people at York than I ever do at shows like Allentown. That being said, I'll still be making both of the Allentown shows.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> This won't change my York visits, they'll just be a bit shorter. I view York as more of a social event than anything else, and I see and get to chat with a lot more people at York than I ever do at shows like Allentown. That being said, I'll still be making both of the Allentown shows.


Now like GRJ was asking about the Amherst show if it's worth it, How big is the Allentown show? Worth a four hour drive?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gary, that's a very subjective question. I only have to drive around 45 minutes, so it's an easy decision for me. One thing I like about it is there is a lot more O-scale than many mixed shows, so it's worthwhile. I went down to Timonium MD fair a couple of times, but there was very little O-scale, so I haven't done it recently.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I only had the opportunity to make it to York last October, as my first time. I have roughly a 2 hour drive, so it isn't hard for me to make it. I arrived on Wednesday, only to meet Bruce Greenberg, to give him updated info, for his next book, that will cover "0" gauge trains, from the 1929-1942 period. I stayed from Wednesday, until Saturday morning, and had the chance to meet a few vendors, and other friends from the forum, that completed my stay. I think that if the meet is cut down to 2 days, it will have the biggest impact, on those that a long distance to travel. It should be interesting to see what impact it will have, in the future. I don't have any reference to what the older 2 day meets were like. Maybe it is the best decision, for the EDTCA, as the expenses have to be astronomical, for the 3 day events. Will they be able to survive, only time will tell.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Now like GRJ was asking about the Amherst show if it's worth it, How big is the Allentown show? Worth a four hour drive?


Tough call, Gary. I often see folks from north Jersey and Staten Island stopping in at the Allentown shows, but that's about a 90-minute to 2-hour drive at the most. 4 hours might be a bit much for Allentown in relatively close proximity to York -- especially the November Allentown show which is less than a month after York.

Allentown is PACKED nonetheless during Saturday morning, and there's often a line to get in for folks with regular tickets (as opposed to "early admission" tickets which gets them in an hour earlier). When I held tables at Allentown last November, it was a highly productive day for me... and I'll probably do it again this November. 

Having said all of this... York and Allentown are two completely different shows. York still has the "mecca of O-Gauge toy trains" look-and-feel to it. And no other show comes close to that IMHO. We in PA are just so fortunate to have both shows in a relatively short driving distance from where we live.

Please don't take my comments about York as anything negative about the EDTCA. They've done a great job over the years with York... and trying to adapt to changing times. My hat is off to them all the way. But as I said, I was planning to cut out April ANYWAY -- even if the show remained a Thursday - Saturday affair. I would have just enjoyed a relaxed Thursday afternoon stroll through the Orange Hall... chat with the old-time dealers and then have a nice dinner with MTF'ers before driving home Thursday nite.

So I'll give next October a try on Friday, and see how it feels. As the character George Weber muses in Thomas Wolfe's novel:

"You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory."​
I would only add one thought to that line, and it would be, 

"But it's sure fun trying!".​
So that is what we'll do. We'll try to see if York can return back to its roots. It may not be exactly as we all remember it, but I suppose it will be fun to at least try it out. It may still work... or the memories I have of the York shows in the 1990's may be best re-lived in my memories of that decade rather than trying to re-create them again some 30 years later.

We shall see.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I just had it confirmed by a couple of the Eastern Division officers, after this October meet both Spring and Fall will be only two days.
There were mixed reports on October maybe staying three days but I guess the decision was to go back to two then as well. Too bad, I was hoping October would stay as it is. Like Marty I always looked forward to that time as a mini vacation.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> I just had it confirmed by a couple of the Eastern Division officers, after this October meet both Spring and Fall will be only two days.
> There were mixed reports on October maybe staying three days but I guess the decision was to go back to two then as well. Too bad, I was hoping October would stay as it is. Like Marty I always looked forward to that time as a mini vacation.
> 
> Pete


Could this be a positive developement for the bandit meets? You always have those during the week.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

It is a 6 hour drive for me. I would get there for the opening, stay overnight Thursday and put in a full Friday and head back home. 

20 years ago it was no big deal to get up in the middle of the night, drive the 6 hours, and hit the Friday opening. Stay over Friday night and do Sat morning. Like I said, that was 20 years ago. At 72 with a troublesome ticker that is not in the cards anymore.

Unless I want to make it a 2 night stay over I might be done with York.

Bill


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Seayakbill, Same age here, and know where you are coming from, plus I can only say, It sucks getting old!! Things just don't work like they used to.....:smilie_auslachen::smilie_auslachen:


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

After sleeping on it, I'll still plan to attend the future York Meets. I just have too much fun when I'm there. Plus it's also a chance to visit my daughter and friends back east. And I do about 95% of my off the shelf buying at York.

But I'm not addicted or anything like that. I can quit York anytime I want. I just choose not to. Yeah, yeah, that's it!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Apparently there is no firm decision yet on what follows next April.
This October is three days, next April is two days but any decision on October 2020 will depend on how April works out. Just take it a show at a time.

Pete


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Norton said:


> Apparently there is no firm decision yet on what follows next April....
> Pete


I'm afraid there is, Pete. There's a scheduling notice on EDTCA's Home Page stating each of the York shows from April 2020 thru Oct. 2023 ARE 2 day events. I don't see how much more official and firm it can be than that notice?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

There was guy on OGR who contacted someone in Eastern Division today and was told no firm decision on what happens after April. I know some or most of the officers held a conference call last week. Knowing many of these folks personally I can believe there will be a lot of procrastination. They don't want the party to end anymore than the members.
If you really want to know whats going on you should attend the business meeting held every year Saturday morning at 8:00 AM in the orange hall meeting room. Its open to all members. Then you can hear what the situation is and voice any concerns or suggestions.

Pete


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

teledoc said:


> Seayakbill, Same age here, and know where you are coming from, plus I can only say, It sucks getting old!! Things just don't work like they used to.....:smilie_auslachen::smilie_auslachen:


True. My thoughts until I saw the movie "Space Cowboys". That movie's theme changed my whole perspective on getting old.

Here's one *list *of great achievements by older people.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> ...
> This October is three days, next April is two days but any decision on October 2020 will depend on how April works out. Just take it a show at a time.
> 
> ...


Pete, that graphic I posted came directly from the EDTCA York website. So I'm just surprised that they'd post ALL show dates after October 2019 going out into 2023 as 2-day events, if they're gonna go on a one show at a time basis. At best, this is confusing to those making advanced travel arrangements. I don't have a dog in this race, because I make plans "on the fly" since I'm only making day trips within 2-hours driving each way.

We want to give the EDTCA the benefit of doubt in terms of organizing these York meets well over the years. But they've got to clean house a bit with respect to communications. If they're not ready to make a decision out into 2023, then they need to SAY that. But by posting specific dates that far in advance would tend to imply SOMEBODY has made a decision to make these events 2-day affairs (Friday/Saturday) going forward after this October's show.

David


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for that info, Pete.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Pete, that graphic I posted came directly from the EDTCA York website. So I'm just surprised that they'd post ALL show dates after October 2019 going out into 2023 as 2-day events, if they're gonna go on a one show at a time basis. At best, this is confusing to those making advanced travel arrangements. I don't have a dog in this race, because I make plans "on the fly" since I'm only making day trips within 2-hours driving each way.
> 
> We want to give the EDTCA the benefit of doubt in terms of organizing these York meets well over the years. But they've got to clean house a bit with respect to communications. If they're not ready to make a decision out into 2023, then they need to SAY that. But by posting specific dates that far in advance would tend to imply SOMEBODY has made a decision to make these events 2-day affairs (Friday/Saturday) going forward after this October's show.
> 
> David


I agree David. They have some confusing information out there that contradicts several of their own social media pages and web pages. As brought up by a few here and other forums, folks often make plans a year in advance and would like to have some firm dates to plan by.

April changing on the fly is an inconvenience for a few but that could be unavoidable due to some savings on the EDTCA part. Next fall though should at minimal should be firmed up to a 2 or 3 day event to let folks that are making plans do that effectively.


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## ed&bingo (Sep 20, 2015)

I believe that after this October both April & October will be just Friday & Saturday. That is the way it was originally. They added Thursday to try and kill the bandit meets. It sorta half worked.


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## CHOO-CHOO MIKE (Nov 5, 2015)

They only hurt themselves when they tried to kill the Bandit meets. It made the York experience a lot less fun ! That and getting rid of the onsite auction.


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## johnboy (Dec 28, 2018)

*Just my luck......*

...now that I am retired and have the time to spend without getting in trouble at work for being away, a shorter show?

I must confess I spend every moment the show is open on the floor looking for and buying treasures and still wish I had more time. 

I also do the "Bandit" shows before the meet opens and the whole week is a blast for me and my pocketbook


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

After this Oct, I don't know when I'll get back to the show but I'm looking forward to the bandit meets being close to what they were before. They are fun.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

It's good to see Dave Hikel try to continue the DCS Users meeting at least for this fall. I'm not sure how successful it will be once the 2 day timeline is enacted. I also noticed the venue change with a higher price point for the meal. While I certainly wish him well, I just remember Barry having folks complain about a $12 charge for a buffet type meal.

The Legacy meeting will not take place this fall and with the 2 day schedule will most likely be done as we know it. I'm hoping to possibly do a video edition but that won't happen this year due to work. If I could secure Lionel's help at the booth I might consider doing something during the meet but I believe the vendors will be too busy with the shortened meet to want that kind of traffic jam in their booth.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

> It's good to see Dave Hikel try to continue the DCS Users meeting at least for this fall. I'm not sure how successful it will be once the 2 day timeline is enacted. I also noticed the venue change with a higher price point for the meal. While I certainly wish him well, I just remember Barry having folks complain about a $12 charge for a buffet type meal.


Agreed but with nothing new to report as DCS hasn't changed in years what's the point. Don't mean to be an *** but unless MTH is going to announce something new and there's a lot of people that need their TIU updated it will be hard to justify people attending. Bet you are running into the same thing. Anything new with Legacy? Rumors. Wish I could of attended one of your past meets.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Having only attended one of these I can say Dave is at least as knowledgable as Barry and might even bring a bit more experience to the table with his many custom installations. He certainly understands DCS. When these guys start pointing out the particular line of code in the program responsible for an action I say they know their stuff. 

Pete


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## PENNSY484 (Sep 1, 2019)

I have attended York meets since 2010 or so, but always on Friday. Fridays are way less crowded than they used to be. I really do not like crowds, but honestly, for me an increase in the number of people on Friday will elevate the mood. For as annoying as it was, I would be happy to hear announcements about following the direction arrows (it became pretty much a non-issue of late due to the number of people).

Last October was the only time I also walked through on Saturday, and I found it a bit depressing, like it was really closed, hardly anyone there, vendors packing up. I hope they go to a full day Saturday, and more importantly, that the vendors will want the full day Saturday and not stay just because they are required to.

As to the dying hobby aspect, this is something that in the past bothered and worried me. But I then joined a golf forum, and guess what, same thing, not as many players, worries about the manufacturers, etc. I think the internet enables a larger number of niche hobbies and interests, which might reduce the number of people in some hobbies. Things that make me feel better about it even if it is in decline: I got into this because I love model and toy trains, not because of how popular or not it is, and hope to continue to stay in it for that reason; a decline in the number of model railroaders will change several aspects, including new offerings, but other things will change, like more of what GunrunnerJohn does, modernizing (or maybe someday simplifying) older pieces with electronics, more custom building and modding, etc.; with the internet, even a niche hobby can now have a pretty robust online social aspect.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

superwarp1 said:


> Agreed but with nothing new to report as DCS hasn't changed in years what's the point. Don't mean to be an *** but unless MTH is going to announce something new and there's a lot of people that need their TIU updated it will be hard to justify people attending. Bet you are running into the same thing. Anything new with Legacy? Rumors. Wish I could of attended one of your past meets.


One of the reasons we were going to one meeting a year before the EDTCA changed the schedule. There was just not enough new to present and I hate to rehash the same stuff over and over. 

If something new comes out maybe we'll do something but I can reach more people, quicker on the forums.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Saturday nowadays is DEAD...DEAD...DEAD... for the most part. Thursday is OK, and there's the excitement of being the first day, but Friday has been the busiest day for a while now.

I'm curious, when they go to a 2-day schedule, when will they open the halls on Friday? Thursday opened late to allow the vendors to get their act together.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Saturday nowadays is DEAD...DEAD...DEAD... for the most part. Thursday is OK, and there's the excitement of being the first day, but Friday has been the busiest day for a while now.
> 
> I'm curious, when they go to a 2-day schedule, when will they open the halls on Friday? Thursday opened late to allow the vendors to get their act together.


There is load in time on Thursday. Doors will open at 9am on Friday.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

New to talk about: well there's the IRV2 modules. But, just poked around -- still not available.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Severn said:


> New to talk about: well there's the IRV2 modules. But, just poked around -- still not available.


December if we are lucky, is the last I've heard but they should be the same as the fast track version.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

superwarp1 said:


> December if we are lucky, is the last I've heard but they should be the same as the fast track version.


The IRV is just 4 sensor tracks outside the housings which we already discussed twice in the last year. Nothing really new.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I guess I can only list what I'd be interested in. Now that I typed itout, I would say such a list "sounds like work":

1 - new products principally from a stand pt of the technology aspects
2 - LCS inner workings
3 - Demos of LCS ... for example I've never seen all the various lcs in one spot. having just a subset myself.
4 - lionel tools & 3rd party ones
5 - any other "cool thing" that seems worthy & topical as someone wants to display/discuss etc...

So I did think about #2 but I think we are somewhat hampered by the LCS NDA ... although perhaps Lionel would consider relaxing that or slides could be created that would be vague enough in details to run afoul of it....


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Severn said:


> I guess I can only list what I'd be interested in. Now that I typed itout, I would say such a list "sounds like work":
> 
> 1 - new products principally from a stand pt of the technology aspects
> Haven't really been much.
> ...


See above in red.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

#5 -- I was thinking more like these projects, using these as examples:

http://www.silogic.com/trains/White Tower Restaurant.html

So for example, the RFID project is interesting and could in theory be ported i think to LCS, to inject some kind of packet onto the LCS bus, through I would guess the serial interface, and then onto the PC. Anyway this is just an example -- but imagine someone did all that, perhaps discuss it at this meeting in enough detail someone else could replicate it, give demo, etc...

The 3D model -- somewhat similar. Here's a top-to-bottom project that could be discussed and someone else could follow it and replicate....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll miss the Legacy get together, but I guess life goes on. I'll see you at York anyway Marty.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Severn said:


> #5 -- I was thinking more like these projects, using these as examples:
> 
> http://www.silogic.com/trains/White Tower Restaurant.html
> 
> ...


Remember: _Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!_


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'll miss the Legacy get together, but I guess life goes on. I'll see you at York anyway Marty.


John
I am going to see what happens next year with the meet times. Perhaps if the 3 day schedule remains for October we'll see what happens. I was planning on moving it to a later time during the meet anyways but since I didn't get an answer from the EDTCA I had to scrap the fall meeting.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

MartyE said:


> ...
> 3 - Demos of LCS ... for example I've never seen all the various lcs in one spot. having just a subset myself.
> I've done this through various meetings.
> ...
> ...


Having been a professional trainer in the IT field when I was in Corporate America, I can say one of the toughest challenges when teaching is getting everyone to the same level of information. Don't assume "everybody" knows the basics, just because you've already taught the class once or twice. 

Peeps are always at different places on the learning curve. The trick is to communicate what you're gonna cover, so the appropriate audience signs up to attend. And then go from there. Eventually you'll cover a critical mass of the target audience, but there's always a few stragglers... which is when a recorded video of the class/meeting comes in handy.

Just a thought. Of course, the fact that there's so much up in the air right now in terms of a 2- or 3-day meet in October doesn't help planning these days. Given the recently published dates of future meets showing both April and October shows as 2-day events, I'm inclined to believe that's where things are headed these days. The EDTCA can't be publishing dates willy-nilly like that on a public website and NOT expect people to plan accordingly. There's already been too much confusion around this whole transition. Poor communication... plain and simple... no excuses.

David


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Having been a professional trainer in the IT field when I was in Corporate America, I can say one of the toughest challenges when teaching is getting everyone to the same level of information. Don't assume "everybody" knows the basics, just because you've already taught the class once or twice.
> 
> Peeps are always at different places on the learning curve. The trick is to communicate what you're gonna cover, so the appropriate audience signs up to attend. And then go from there. Eventually you'll cover a critical mass of the target audience, but there's always a few stragglers... which is when a recorded video of the class/meeting comes in handy.
> 
> ...


With a few exceptions, the Legacy Meetings were recorded. Yes reviewing past material is always good and we have always posted an agenda before hand with what we will be covering.

We have even reviewed a few times while covering new items. Our audience was fairly regular so there was always an effort to show as much new stuff without rehashing the old items too much. Unfortunately, lately there hasn't been much new. I did prepare a review for the last meeting but it did go long so we didn't get to it.


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## JDaddy (Jun 8, 2011)

So will the Bandit meets be bigger then? 
Bottom line, the shorter schedule will make me have to make quicker decisions about buying something or waiting for a second chance and reduced price.


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