# Making my son a Christmas present, need advice



## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

Back in the late 70's I was allowed the opportunity to play with my Grandfather's model train and always looked forward to seeing the changes he made each time we visited. Once a year he would take me to the Chattanooga Choo Choo to look at their model train setups. I also had one for a few years as a kid, i believe i was given it when he upgraded, all I really remember is that it puffed smoke from the stack and the smell of electric motors working.

Also as a kid I played with my matchbox cars on my parent fireplace hearth. It was made out of large river stone with 1.5" grout lines, perfect for driving matchbox cars on.

Fast-forward to the present, I have a 2.5 year old son. He has 3 engines put away for him to play with when he gets a little older thanks to his great grandmother cleaning out her house and moving.

My son loves matchbox cars, especially Jeeps and off road racing trucks etc.
I've started on a present for him, it's going to be a off road racing course and "dirt track" that will be placed on our fireplace hearth. Below I've posted some pictures of the progress I made yesterday.





































I'm making it in 2 separate but identical pieces. One reason is after all the real rocks are added it's gonna be heavy, another is my 5 year old daughter might want to join in and it will be nice to put a little space in between them .

My idea is to have a track around the entire perimeter and down the middle, like a large 8 on it's side. I though I would place various rocks to make a Boulder path from the upper part of the road down to the lower area. I also want to make one side a dirt track, imagine a motor cross track or off road truck racing, and then the other side something like a junk yard (son loves "The adventure of Chuck and Friends" kids TV show).

So I am at a loss as to what to make the road out of. I was going to use Flexall, but the test I did with it last night turned me off to it. Now i'm thinking the rubbery duct sealant used to seal up A/C duct work might be a good choice.

So this is why I'm posting here, I don't have hours and hours to research the best way to do this, and I don't have a whole lot of time to do the work. I can work an hour or so each night till Christmas, and a couple of hours on the weekends when the kids are napping. 

I'm not looking to make it supper realistic, I'm sure my son would love to drive his trucks on it right now. But I'm also a perfectionist, so I'd like it to look as good as possible.

I was planning to go to Hobby Lobby tonight for inspiration and to see what the have that would work for what I want to do. The main thing is the roadway, and I'm trying to figure out how to make "dirt piles" and a dirt area in general.

I hope someone can be of assistance, Thanks!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You can build great rocks out of discarded packing foam shaped right looks like the real thing. Lighter then real rocks.
Lay plaster cloth over them, then paint.

Roads to can be shaped with plaster cloth or just plaster. You want like an off road model?

Maybe you can get a few ideals from my ROCK thread.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5314

All you see there is made from packing foam, plaster cloth and plaster.

Around Christmas time it shouldn't be hard to find packing foam.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Check out Woodland Scenics landscaping products, offered at many hobby shops, Michael's craft stores, etc. They have shaky powder jars of grass (in various colors), dirt (in various colors, grits), gravel, etc.

You can sprinkle it into a layer of thinned white glue, or, sprinkle it into a layer of color-matched (more or less) latex paint. Let dry, brush off excess. In model railroad terms, gravel is often called "ballast" ...

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/category/GroundCover

Sounds like Santa's elves have their work cut out this year!

TJ


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

How durable are the plaster rocks after curing? Can they take the resulting playing with matchbox car on them etc.? Is plaster all the same, meaning does it mater what type I buy?

Do you think the various grass/dirt etc. on dried white glue would be prone to coming off due to the friction of the cars wheels etc?


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

This thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=9347 shows using foam in a can to make a hill. I think this could be the just what I need. 

However, I've worked with it before, it doesn't seem like it would shape easily after drying. Do you all think the packing foam would shape easier? Doesn't it kind of crumble when you pick at it? Could someone describe what tools they use to shape the foam?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I have done a write up on here about making mountains. I use screen and drywall mud (quick setting).
You could use the quick mud over any surface to get a nice hard shell that would hold up to the hot wheels and match boxes.
Yes any thing you glue to the surface will be prone to wear and falling off. for shear durability paint the plaster with latex paint, you can get sample bottles or cans at Home Depot and Lowes for fairly cheap to mix the colors up!


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

NIMT said:


> I have done a write up on here about making mountains. I use screen and drywall mud (quick setting).
> You could use the quick mud over any surface to get a nice hard shell that would hold up to the hot wheels and match boxes.
> Yes any thing you glue to the surface will be prone to wear and falling off. for shear durability paint the plaster with latex paint, you can get sample bottles or cans at Home Depot and Lowes for fairly cheap to mix the colors up!


I found that thread, thanks! Not I can't decide what will be easier, can-o-foam or mesh or pink foam. 

I read your suggestion to add wood glue to the quick set drywall mud to make it stronger. Would you suggest I use water putty, or plaster with the mesh instead? Whatever I build needs to withstand a 2.5 year old tantrum not limited to the banging of cars on the mountain....


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Get "Fix-All" Home depot carries it. It is the strongest of all the compounds. It's almost to the point of being concrete tough!
That will hold up to whatever you Lil dude can dish out! It will also except paint real well!:thumbsup:
It's in the paint department.
Oh and for dirt and sand use sanded tile grout, or sanded caulking in the tile department.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

NIMT said:


> Get "Fix-All" Home depot carries it. It is the strongest of all that compounds. It's almost to the point of being concrete tough!
> That will hold up to whatever you Lil dude can dish out! It will also except paint real well!:thumbsup:
> It's in the paint department.


Will that stick to plywood, the various types of foam, plaster fabric and real stones tree limb? Do you think it will shrink or crack? Can I lay it think like 1" or more? Thanks!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't know if the foam and plaster would hold up to a 2 1/2 year old "tantrums."

I will tell you this though, I once worked with paper mache. 

It was for the kids project, planet earth. We mixed (boiled) up a mixture of flour and white glue and I guess we used too much of something.
We took a large balloon and dipped the mixture with strips of newspaper then put it around the balloon. After it dried we popped the balloon.
After the planet went to school that ball got played with very hard.
And stayed hard.
Years later during a house spring cleanup I tried to smash it and couldn't.

It took a large sledge hammer to smash it to where I could throw it away.:thumbsup:

Maybe that is what you need, make the mixture and boil it, add extra.
Dip paper towels or newspaper shape to form, let it dry and paint with latex paint. Use packing foam chunks or the spray foam to shape the rocks and roads first. Then put the paper mache strips over it.

Go to home depot, pick out the color and get it in a sampler jar. @$3.00 bucks a jar.
That is what I get for the layout, a thousand colors to pick from.:thumbsup:

edit, add a little salt when you boil it, it stops it from becoming moldy.
The stuff I made was like cement but without the weight when it dried.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Just mix in some wood glue to get a super bond.
It doesn't shrink or if it does it will be very slight.
1 inch  1/4 inch would be plenty, 1 inch you could drive a real truck over it!


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

NIMT said:


> Just mix in some wood glue to get a super bond.
> It doesn't shrink or if it does it will be very slight.
> 1 inch  1/4 inch would be plenty, 1 inch you could drive a real truck over it!


 Wood glue is your duct tape, LOL! Thanks hitting up HD now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

NEwhere said:


> Wood glue is your duct tape, LOL! Thanks hitting up HD now.



Just make sure it is secured to the wood...wouldn't want the kid to eat it.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

My HD didn't have fix all, will look around. What exactly is plaster cloth? Can inuse and old sheet?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

NEwhere said:


> My HD didn't have fix all, will look around. What exactly is plaster cloth? Can inuse and old sheet?



Plaster cloth is what they wrap say your arm in to make a cast.

What does this mean,,Can inuse and old sheet?


edit, http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Rolls-Ho...303399?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19c5e506a7


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You might live close to that guy, that is where I get mine, but I wait till he has free ship specials.
It is a mesh impregnated with plaster, just lay it in water for a few seconds and apply it. You can form fit it over stuff like foam and it drys hard.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks plaster cloth would make it easier. That was a typo, I meant to ask if I could use an old sheet as plaster cloth.

On a side note my sons trains from great grandfather, feel free to tell me about them...
http://pbckt.com/pe.QH3aFU


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Just read this and some of the replys. This is going to be played with and I am going to guess that your kids are going to be like any other and they will be pretty rough on this play set. I would suggest making your hills out of something strong and coat them with something even stronger, and plaster cloth would not be my first choice. I would suggest forming the base of the hills using wood then using polyester resin and dirt to form the mountains and hills to your liking. You can find the Poly resin at most any autopart store for reasonable prices and play sand works great as a filler. This is just as strong as Epoxy, stronger than plaster cloth and should hold up to child abuse just fine. Once the resin drys (please mix and apply in a well ventalated shop or out doors) you can paint it what ever colors you want to simulate rock or road or grass. You can also sprinkle more sand on top of the resin as before it kicks off to give an even courser texture.

Just an idea for ya.

Massey


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have the track too?
Is it 2 rail track?

These look like American Flyer trains, S Scale?
Pictures of the bottoms?

Anyone? 

They look in great shape, you got your self some keepers, a piece of history.:thumbsup:

Maybe someone will recognize them. 

Or are they HO scale? Put a ruler in the picture too.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Ed, Did S scale have horn hook couplers? The 4073 has a horn hook off the tender. I am going to guess these are HO scale. The Burlington Route engine looks alot like a Tyco GP20

Massey


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Massey said:


> Ed, Did S scale have horn hook couplers? The 4073 has a horn hook off the tender. I am going to guess these are HO scale. The Burlington Route engine looks alot like a Tyco GP20
> 
> Massey



Probably not.
I thought I saw white walls on the wheels.
Just a reflection I guess.
That is why I added, HO?
It is hard to judge the size when you get a picture with nothing to reference it to.
A pack of butts, soda can,pen, etc a ruler would be best for a size comparison..


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

http://pbckt.com/pe.QHkeUv

http://pbckt.com/pe.QHkA6r

http://pbckt.com/pe.QHkX7p

http://pbckt.com/pe.QHk4vZ

http://pbckt.com/pe.QHkD4u

http://pbckt.com/pe.QHkIuv

Sorry for links posting from my phone...






big ed said:


> Do you have the track too?
> Is it 2 rail track?
> 
> These look like American Flyer trains, S Scale?
> ...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yes you have HO.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Ho Ho Ho!


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Made some progress last night. Added the back, and inspired by a bunch of pictures here decided to make some rock outcropings/cliffs. Tonight I will trim up the foam, and foam some more.
Not all of these pictures are representative of what it looks like in person.























































Tonight I'll stick em' together and finish foaming the center cliff and a large hill below it on the wood step, and then I guess the next day cut it back apart with a hacksaw blade.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

That's clever to spray middle "mountain" foam with the two halves together, and then cut them apart.

What version of Great Stuff are you using? (Just curious.)

TJ


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> That's clever to spray middle "mountain" foam with the two halves together, and then cut them apart.
> 
> What version of Great Stuff are you using? (Just curious.)
> 
> TJ


I think i was using the Gap and Crack, but will check the empties tonight.

Looks like I won't be able to get the Fix-it-all product with ordering online, not carried in HD here. I'm wondering what else would work over screen and foam.

I wonder in any of the concrete patch stuff wold work. (http://www.homedepot.com/Paint-Patc...Id=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202889310) 

Maybe plaster of paris with wood glue mixed in will be strong enough. Or water putty. I've never used any of these products so i don't really know. 

Is stucco harder than drywall compound? Maybe I should try a real Plaster compound.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Just tossin' out an "never tried it, but ..." idea ...

Permatex Spray 'N Seal ...

http://www.google.com/products/cata...haXnTuuuMfPHsQLIyYn8CA&sqi=2&ved=0CG8Q8wIwAQ#

Stucco is certainly harder than drywall (joint) compound. With hardness, though, comes brittleness ... prone to stress cracking.

You might consider a vinyl spackling copmpound (DAP, etc.) ... it doesn't sand very well, but it has a bit more "flex" than traditional drywall (joint) compound.

http://www.dap.com/media/product_photos/VinylSpackling.aspx

TJ


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Just tossin' out an "never tried it, but ..." idea ...
> 
> Permatex Spray 'N Seal ...
> 
> ...


I doubt I can paint the spray rubber, but the vinyl spackling by dap looks like a decent choice, latex or oil paints only. Probably get some oils and go all Bob Ross on it!


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Ya know, I DO have a bunch of fiberglass cloth and a large jug of fiberglass resin...that stuff is a pain to sand, so wouldn't be no sanding done.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Foam expanded a little more the the pictures from last night. I started cutting off excess along the top of the back. It's dried thoroughly as well. Got some vinyl patching compound I'm going to test out, as well as drywall compound, and I might try a little fiberglass too on the scraps so I can see what seems easiest and most durable.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Fiberglass cloth with an appropriate resin (polyester, vinylester, epoxy, etc.) would likely be your most durable surface-coat option. A bit messy in the application process (using rubber gloves, squeegies, etc.), but you'd achieve a pretty hard, strong surface.

TJ


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Trimmed it up last night, really like the way it looks. Then I added on more can of Spray Foam (the cracks and gaps version). I needed to expand the driving surface on the back support. Looks a little funny in these pictures but after trimming it up tonight i think i'll be done with the foam. 

I tested out the vinyl patch compound last night directly on the foam, no cloth or wire. It shrank in places and was easily damaged by a fingernail pressing into it. It did flex so with the foam. I didn't try out fiberglass or drywall last night.

Tonight i'll test the fiberglass. As to the various resins mentioned above in TJ's post (polyester, vinylester, epoxy, etc.) I don't know the difference. I just have regular old fiberglass resin. I'm reading about it online now, I probably have polyester, and i think it will eat the foam.

Maybe i should just buy a bag of latex thinset.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Try the polyester resin on a scrap piece of foam ... you might be OK.

TJ


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Try the polyester resin on a scrap piece of foam ... you might be OK.
> 
> TJ


I tried some about 20 mins ago, doesn't appear to be doing any damage to the foam, I tried both cut foam where foam is full of holes and the hard surface of untouched foam. I've got enough shaping and then cloth cutting and laying to keep me busy tonight, by tomorrow night I'll know for sure about the polyester resin.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Almost ready for Primer. I need to paint on one more pass of resin and i should be good to go. I ended up using some bondo as well I've already sanded it (not shown in photos below)


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

That sucker has to be indestructible. My buddy made a speaker enclosure out of a wood frame, but then used fleece cloth stretched out over 1 side to make the round to square transition between the box and the speaker. He then used the fiberglass resin over the fleece & sanded to get a nice surface. It's one tough speaker box. Nice job.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> That sucker has to be indestructible. My buddy made a speaker enclosure out of a wood frame, but then used fleece cloth stretched out over 1 side to make the round to square transition between the box and the speaker. He then used the fiberglass resin over the fleece & sanded to get a nice surface. It's one tough speaker box. Nice job.


I'm pretty impressed so far with how strong it seems to be. I don't think anyone will be able to cause it any harm. I stopped by an art supply store and talked with a girl who has a lot of experience with fiberglass, her and her boyfriend build speaker boxed in trunks of cars (fancy speaker boxes like on that show Pimp my Ride). She suggested that I could use felt vs. the fiberglass mesh if i wanted a smoother finished surface without multiple layers of resin. In hind sight I should have gone that route, but I was already halfway done when i spoke with her.

I did buy Gesso to use as a primer, she said it will fill small pinholes and other imperfections. And then after that i've got some rattlecans of this "stone" paint with texture. I guess after I get the mountains done I'll paint by hand the roadways and large flat areas.

I think i'm going to make some "fake rocks" and "fake dirt piles" out of foam and fiberglass. Then I'll put a piece of Velcro on the bottom and some pieces on the Large flat areas that would allow my son to make and re-arrange a course to drive on.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Looks like it is comming right along. Glad the resin worked out good for you.

Massey


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

So I got one primed last night with Gesso. I tinted the gesso to experiment with a color scheme. This morning i checked it out and it dried to a flat, textured finish. Still needs one more coat of the primer, i'm going to go a lot darker gray with that coat tonight, and try my hand at really painting it to look more like a stone surface. I'm afraid if i paint the final finish with straight acrylic it will be glossy. So i might just keep painting with tinted primer gesso.

The other half got it's last coat of resin and is ready for primer tonight.


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Going for a red sandstone canyon/cliff look, struggling with getting the colors mixed right


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

WOW looks good. Just like the areas in the mountains where they cut out for I40 in NM and CA. Love the stand stone look.

Massey


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

Okay I took these pics, and then did a little more work to make the bottom area more blended, tonight I have to paint the other one so that the veins line up in the rock.





































This picture from further away was taken after the blending








but you can't see much detail


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## NEwhere (Dec 12, 2011)

All done!
http://pbckt.com/pe.QwWcVA

http://pbckt.com/pe.QwWc4J

http://pbckt.com/pe.QwWc2g

http://pbckt.com/pe.QwWIvX


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Looks good. Someone's gonna be surprised tomorrow morning....


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

NEwhere,

Just chiming in to say that looks GREAT! In today's techno, "gotta have it now"' world, it's a treat to see a father so lovingly handcraft something for his son. I'm sure it brought ear-to-ear smiles this morning.

Enjoy the ride ... your son with his cars, and you with these treasured moments and memories!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Great job, I'll bet he loves it!


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