# Trouble Shooting



## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

For some reason....when i put power to my track from my MRC 1370 its only putting about 1-2 mV dc instead of the 16-18V DC coming straight from the connections on the power pack...when the dial is set to 0 the pilot light is on...but when I turn it up to 25ish the pilot light starts to dim and then eventually goes out completely....all my feeders are soldered to the rail, positive on the outside rail and common on the inside rail...i used suitcase connectors to connect them to my bus wire...all are 14awg stranded wire...im just not getting power to my track...any ideas? 

Here's a photo of my layout and a wiring diagram if it helps.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Your diagramme doesn't show which of the two rails gets positive and which gets negative. I don't know what 'common rail' means as I have not operated in DC, but no matter what it means, it means only one rail can ever get positive.


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

outside rail is positive...inside rail is negative or "common" rail.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Jake9420 said:


> outside rail is positive...inside rail is negative or "common" rail.


But, unless we can see an explicit diagramme, showing two rails, we can't see if you have made an error in your planning and thinking. Then, once we see that your diagramme is correct, how have you actually effected the connections? Clearly something is amiss, but we can't tell if it's a misattribution in your planning and diagramme or if it's a problem with execution. As you would surely understand, one misapplied feeder makes a huge difference.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Disconnect all the buss/feeder wires and just hook the 2 wires from MRC to the two rails. The rails alone are plenty enough to carry the current for this small a system. Plus, be sure all your rail joiners are snug and seated properly between opposing rails.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Sounds like you have a short, and the most likely cause of that would be a feeder soldered to the wrong rail.

Check your powerpack's out put at the terminals. If it's good, you can be certain that the problem is in your layout. Because it takes a little while for the breaker to trip, I'm gong to guess that the problem is at the far end of your bus.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

As I said, ditch your buss wires. If all the rail joiners are snug this is all you need..You've not even a reverse loop anywhere. This is a simple basic train layout requiring only the 2 wires from power pack to track.


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Sounds like you have a short, and the most likely cause of that would be a feeder soldered to the wrong rail.
> 
> Check your powerpack's out put at the terminals. If it's good, you can be certain that the problem is in your layout. Because it takes a little while for the breaker to trip, I'm gong to guess that the problem is at the far end of your bus.


I removed all the feeders, and checked the box...I have good power from the power pack...but have no idea what would be shorting my rail...all the joints are soldered and there is nothing between the rails to make it short...even putting the power from the 1370 directly to the rail is no use.


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

telltale said:


> As I said, ditch your buss wires. If all the rail joiners are snug this is all you need..You've not even a reverse loop anywhere. This is a simple basic train layout requiring only the 2 wires from power pack to track.


So it could be an unsoldered joint that I overlooked?


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Go s l o w and examine all the rail joints...Assuming your throttle is not fried what about the loco(s) you are running ? When you give it/them power do they hum in place ? Is it/are they jammed up ?
If you have a steam engine it could be that one of its tender trucks (which provide current pickup) could have swiveled around 180 Deg.. I'd imagine, though rare, a diesel truck may have done the same, rendering pickup wheels on wrong side of loco...


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

telltale said:


> Go s l o w and examine all the rail joints...Assuming your throttle is not fried what about the loco(s) you are running ? When you give it/them power do they hum in place ? IS it/are they jammed up ?
> If you have a steam engine it could be that one of its tender trucks (which provide current pickup) could have swiveled around 180 Deg.. I'd imagine, though rare, a diesel truck may have done the same..putting pickup wheels on wrong side of loco...


Throttle has good power coming out of the terminals and the loco runs fine on my short test track and it's just a gp40 so that answers the steam loco problem...the only thing I can think of is that I must have missed a joint when soldering...will examine closer to see...thank you!


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

If you are saying the diesel runs fine on the test track, then the steamer is the problem; likely its tender truck 180 off.. 
Does the diesel run OK on the layout if the steamer is off it ?


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

telltale said:


> If you are saying the diesel runs fine on the test track, then the steamer is the problem; likely its tender truck 180 off..
> Does the diesel run OK on the layout if the steamer is off it ?
> 
> I'm sorry what I meant was I don't own a steam locomotive lol...sorry for the confusion...that only leaves a gap in the rail somewhere


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Jake9420 said:


> So it could be an unsoldered joint that I overlooked?


No, an unsoldered joint will not cause a short. A feeder wire soldered or connected to the wrong rail will. 
As the earlier posters suggested, go back and make sure your feeders are all connected properly to the correct rails. It’s very easy to get inner and outer rails mixed up as you proceed around the layout. 
This is a common error and is easily corrected.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Oh, I see.. No steam present !! OK.. Well, I'm stumped !! With all rail joiners snug and spanning opposing rails properly, diesel running OK on test track, I can't think of anything else except what kind/make the 6 switch tracks are. 
Does throwing their points (the movable rails) do anything ? What brand switches are they ?


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

prrfan said:


> No, an unsoldered joint will not cause a short. A feeder wire soldered or connected to the wrong rail will.
> As the earlier posters suggested, go back and make sure your feeders are all connected properly to the correct rails. It’s very easy to get inner and outer rails mixed up as you proceed around the layout.
> This is a common error and is easily corrected.


Even with all feeders and bus wires removed, and 18 volts applied to the track right from the power pack...it still does not work...its not the loco seeing as that still works on the test track, and its not the power pack because that still puts out 18V DC...there is nothing crossing the tracks to cause a short... could it be an issue with turnouts? insulfrog vs powered frogs?...Atlas vs Peco? etc.


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

telltale said:


> Oh, I see.. No steam present !! OK.. Well, I'm stumped !! With all rail joiners snug and spanning opposing rails properly, diesel running OK on test track, I can't think of anything else except what kind/make the 6 switch tracks are.
> Does throwing their points (the movable rails) do anything ? What brand switches are they ?


so the top 2 are #4 atlas turnouts...the curved TO is also an atlas...the 2 in the industry siding are a #4 atlas and a #6 atlas and the last one at the bottom is a peco #4


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

Jake9420 said:


> so the top 2 are #4 atlas turnouts...the curved TO is also an atlas...the 2 in the industry siding are a #4 atlas and a #6 atlas and the last one at the bottom is a peco #4
> 
> but throwing switches changes nothing.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

WOW !! If I had Albert Einstein's phone number I'd give it to you !! There certainly must be an explanation.. But I am completely tapped out... All the Atlases are deemed 'all live', their points affecting nothing, route-wise.. The Peco could have been the problem if it were an 'Electrofrog'. But you say it too affects nothing..But just for the halibut, disconnect/isolate the Peco and report back...


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Jake9420 said:


> Even with all feeders and bus wires removed, and 18 volts applied to the track right from the power pack...it still does not work...its not the loco seeing as that still works on the test track, and its not the power pack because that still puts out 18V DC...there is nothing crossing the tracks to cause a short... could it be an issue with turnouts? insulfrog vs powered frogs?...Atlas vs Peco? etc.


Yep, in that case I would think a turnout has to be the culprit. I’ve not dealt with Atlas turnouts in a long time and never had Pecos. Hopefully someone will have some ideas along those lines.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

More on what telltail is referring to.

One thing you need to check is that #4 Peco, if it's an Electrofrog TO you will need to insulate
the two frog rails, the diverging rails exiting the frog.
If it is an Insulfrog than the TO isn't the problem.
The difference between the two are the Insulfrog has small plastic insulators on the two rails at the frog.
Electrofrog TOs have all metal frog rails. This might be what is causing your short.

Magic


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Disconnect the feeder wires from the bus one at A time and test after each. If one is crosswired it would short out the layout even if the transformer is disconnected.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Peco Insulfrogs would not likely by a cause of your
track shorting. Most Atlas turnouts are also Insulfrogs
so unless one has an internal short of some kind they
should not be a cause.

However, you mentioned a powered frog. That could
cause a short. Powered frog turnouts must have insulated
joiners in both frog rails.

I agree, we need a 2 rail drawing of your wiring plan. You
likely have a Red wire where a Black should be, or vs.

Is it possible to disconnect all the track drop suitcase connections
to your bus? With all disconnected, and a direct pair of wires
from the power pack to the track IN ONLY ONE PLACE, the
loco should run. If it doesn't, that would indicate that one or more turnouts
has an internal short or there is some metal some where
touching both rails. 

Normally, in a situation like this you would disconnect the
track drops ONE BY ONE with a test after each disconnect.
Leave them disconnected thru the end of
the test. When the short vanishes you have found the drop that
is causing the problem. It would not, however, be advisable
to have the power pack continuously shorted. It should be
off and on with each disconnect.

Let us know what you find.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

It's like Sherlock Holmes said: "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth." I'd check your turnouts, starting with the Peco.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Isn't it just peachy keen how people fail to read others' posts then wind up repeating the same thing the other or others suggested to do, before them !!
I suggested in post #19 to disconnect/isolate the Peco and report back (as it may be a power-routing Electro-frog and may be causing the problem).
So, Jake. Did you try that ? 🌄🛤🏭


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

I'd start out by adding insulated joints (both rails) on the sidings, and between the "trailing points" (of the sidings) on the main.

Then, I'd DISCONNECT ALL FEEDERS.

Then, I'd begin re-connecting one section at a time, testing with a loco at each step of the way.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Please forgive if this is a dumb question, but I could not tell if the layout ever worked. In other words, was it working, and then it stopped working and began exhibiting the symptoms you described?


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

That is NOT a dumb question !


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

mesenteria said:


> Your diagramme doesn't show which of the two rails gets positive and which gets negative. I don't know what 'common rail' means as I have not operated in DC, but no matter what it means, it means only one rail can ever get positive.


mesentria;

I doubt the OP is necessarily using the phrase "Common Rail" in its original & correct, context. He simply called his inside, negative, rail a "common rail."

However, just FYI, properly used, the term "Common Rail" refers to an older, alternative, DC wiring system for "Dual Cab Control" with two separate DC power packs. One of the "track" outputs from each of the two packs is wired to a given rail (either the outside rail or the inside) That rail then becomes the "common rail" in that it is electrically "common" to both power packs. This common rail also has no insulated rail joiners, or insulating rail gaps, at the boundaries between track blocks. It remains continuous & unbroken throughout the whole layout.

The advantage of common rail over traditional DC wiring is fewer wires, in fact about half the number used in traditional DC wiring. Each track block needs only one power feeder wire ( to its "non-common" rail which does have gaps at block boundaries.) The power assignment toggle switches on the control panel can be single pole double throw instead of the slightly more expensive double pole double throw variety.

This old system works fine but has declined in popularity over the years, with one important exception, still very much in use today. That exception is the Atlas company. The track plans, wiring guides, etc. published both in print, and online, by Atlas, use common rail DC control. The Atlas line of electrical control products, like the "Selector" and "Controller" etc. are all common rail items.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

That was my first introduction to more complex layouts back in the early 80's. The internet didn't exist for widespread general public use, and model railroad clubs were far and few between where I lived.

Atlas served their purpose for me back then and led to the railroad I have built today.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

telltale said:


> Isn't it just peachy keen how people fail to read others' posts then wind up repeating the same thing the other or others suggested to do, before them !!
> I suggested in post #19 to disconnect/isolate the Peco and report back (as it may be a power-routing Electro-frog and may be causing the problem).


Don’t forget, he has you on ignore, so he doesn’t see any of your posts….just sayin’….


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> That was my first introduction to more complex layouts back in the early 80's. The internet didn't exist for widespread general public use, and model railroad clubs were far and few between where I lived.
> 
> Atlas served their purpose for me back then and led to the railroad I have built today.


Yes, I started with an Atlas layout too. I think most of us did. I wasn't trying to say there is something wrong with Atlas's common rail based wiring, merely that it is different. Sometimes that difference can cause confusion, someone used to Atlas wiring can have some problem transitioning to traditional, non-common rail, wiring if they're used to the Atlas system, and vice versa. Both systems work well. I operated two of my earlier layouts with common rail, the first of them with the Atlas electrical controls. Today I use DCC.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Traction Fan, thanks for explaining common rail to me. I hope our OP understands from my post that his diagramme does not depict which of two rails gets positive at any one location, but also that we can't tell if his application of the wiring diagramme is in concert with the diagramme.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

traction fan said:


> Yes, I started with an Atlas layout too. I think most of us did. I wasn't trying to say there is something wrong with Atlas's common rail based wiring, merely that it is different. Sometimes that difference can cause confusion, someone used to Atlas wiring can have some problem transitioning to traditional, non-common rail, wiring if they're used to the Atlas system, and vice versa. Both systems work well. I operated two of my earlier layouts with common rail, the first of them with the Atlas electrical controls. Today I use DCC.
> 
> Traction Fan 🙂


I realized that TF. I was just stating that Atlas is what introduced me to more complex layout design.


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

prrfan said:


> Yep, in that case I would think a turnout has to be the culprit. I’ve not dealt with Atlas turnouts in a long time and never had Pecos. Hopefully someone will have some ideas along those lines.


Good news! It was in fact the PECO power frog giving me the issues...as soon as I removed it the layout started working as planned.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Replace it with the same size insul-frog and you will be good to go!


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Jake9420 said:


> Good news! It was in fact the PECO power frog giving me the issues...as soon as I removed it the layout started working as planned.


Very glad to hear it, Jake. Our good electrical people filled in the blanks on that one. I use Kato Unitrack so don’t deal with powered frogs etc. 
It seems like electrical problems with turnouts is one of the most common problems discussed on here. 
Have fun developing the layout and keep us posted on your progress.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You could have simply installed insulated joiners in the
frog rails of your turnout with the 'powered frog'. That
is a necessity when you use these.

Don


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Was I right ?!! Or, was I right ?!! *
Congrats Jake !! You had 5 'all live' *Atlas* switches and one 'power routing' *Peco Electrofrog*
which was cutting power to rest of trackage, thrown either way, because it's in the main line.
I believe you can retain the Peco, but you have to know how to add gaps and/or insulators to the 2 routes. OR, replace it with an 'all-live' *Peco* *Insulfrog,* or with another *Atlas*... 🏭🛤🌄🌵


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

mesenteria said:


> Traction Fan, thanks for explaining common rail to me. I hope our OP understands from my post that his diagramme does not depict which of two rails gets positive at any one location, but also that we can't tell if his application of the wiring diagramme is in concert with the diagramme.


mesenteria;

You're right about his track diagram! It's pretty tough to find a mis-wired feeder by looking at only a centerline! 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*PS*. 
A layout like this needs no feeders/buss wires... 2 wires from throttle to rails is all that's needed..
Until I was forced to relo I had a 35' x 8' HO L with only 2 wires from my NCE PowerCab and could run 2 and 3 locos at same time with no problem.. As long as rail joiners are snug the rails are good enough to rely on..
People ought to at least try this first. Then, if found necessary, drop in buss/feeders..Usually you won't need to with a small to medium size layout, though.. Why bother if you doesn't need to ?......


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## Jake9420 (Jul 5, 2021)

Update to all...I did not realize how many people had replied to my original post...I appreciate all help and suggestions...as far as the problem goes once i removed the non insulfrog PECO switch the shorting went away...and seeing has how I didn't have much progress beyond a basic loop and a couple of sidings I started planning some more industry based stuffed and drew up a plan...again...i appreciate all of the helpful suggestions and comments...ill post some actual update pics after the track is laid.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

As it sits you've no way to change direction of trains


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Jake9420 said:


> Update to all...I did not realize how many people had replied to my original post...I appreciate all help and suggestions...as far as the problem goes once i removed the non insulfrog PECO switch the shorting went away...and seeing has how I didn't have much progress beyond a basic loop and a couple of sidings I started planning some more industry based stuffed and drew up a plan...again...i appreciate all of the helpful suggestions and comments...ill post some actual update pics after the track is laid.


Jake: Since the electrical issue is resolved I would suggest starting a new thread about this in the Layout Design forum. You will get more responses there in a fresh perspective geared toward your track plan. 
There’s no hard and fast rules on this, but it may be more beneficial to you.


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## ecmdrw5 (Jan 16, 2021)

Jake9420 said:


> Update to all...I did not realize how many people had replied to my original post...I appreciate all help and suggestions...as far as the problem goes once i removed the non insulfrog PECO switch the shorting went away...and seeing has how I didn't have much progress beyond a basic loop and a couple of sidings I started planning some more industry based stuffed and drew up a plan...again...i appreciate all of the helpful suggestions and comments...ill post some actual update pics after the track is laid.


So you had an electrofrog connected with no insulated joiner. You can either use insulated joiners on the inside rails after the frog or take a dremel to the turnouts right after the frog. Depending on which turnout and the location of the feeders, that might be the easiest thing to do. Unless you have extra insulated joiners laying around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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