# Lionel 248



## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

Am thinking about purchasing a Lionel prewar electric 248 locomotive. Is it possible to install a conventional "E" unit less lever to the motor and still have the motor fit in the shell?

Thank you, swede


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

As I see it you have three options. Take the conventional unit and cut the frame so the coil will fit like the conventional motor. There is clearance on either side maybe enough to mount the reverse unit but you will need a brace A marx unit may have more clearance.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

Thank you for the response. T-Man. 

Have not purchased the 248, yet. If still available, I'll buy and see if either reverse unit will actually fit. Your comments make me optimistic.

swede


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You have about an inch at each end. The unit should fit sideways. I would not cut away at the frame. I am surprised I never thought of it


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I have a 248, and tried different positions of a standard PW E-unit. There isn’t enough room, without Major body surgery, or cutting. It’s not worth the hassle.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

This *Link *to a another forum has a discussion on 248 modifications. Sorry no E-unit hack but there are more pictures of the 248 motor like this one (a third of the way down the page).


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

T-Man, Doc and Mike, thank you for the additional information. Looking closely at Mike's photo link, I don't think it is practical to think about jamming an "E" unit in. 
I may attempt to buy this particular 248 anyway and then take a close look.

Thanks, swede


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

WIth that picture, only the bottom half of the reverse unit will fit. The coil will sit on the frame.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The one conceivable solution is an Electronic E unit, but I have ZERO experience with them, or how they are wired, compared to the Old type.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

There will have to be a next time for me to acquire a 248 and get a personal look. The one I was looking at sold for a lot more than I was willing to pay. Still, very good info for another time.

Thank you, swede


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

When you do buy one make sure the wheels are good. Installing new ones require a press and some filing . I have only done that a few times. I find the factory holes too small and use a circular file on them. If you go there prepare yourself for an adventure.

The electronic board is also an option. I forgot that one. Way to go Doc!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Swede, If and when you try to get a 248, just make sure the wheels are good. To re-wheel one, will cost $40 minimum for set of 4. Also check to see what material the gears are made of. A lot of originals has fiber gears which have tendency to chip teeth, or just wear out. There are brass gears available from most suppliers.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

T-Man and Doc, thanks. The wheels on the one that went bye bye were excellent but I know what you mean. The wheels crumbled on one different model I bought. Luckily I found a replacement motor with good wheels for less than the cost of 4 new wheels.

As for a electronic reverse unit, I can't visualize how it would fit, either. However, I still have the one I sought assistance with a couple months ago. All the parts are here but the enthusiasm for unsoldering and soldering parts on the circuit board has not surfaced yet.

swede


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Some ideas.*


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

More fodder ... Lionel's solution.

Lionel's 252E Motor looks to have the same basic frame.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have never seen that!!!!!:appl:

Notice the lever is modified. No handle.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

T-Man, they stole your idea!. 

If the dimensions of the two shells are the same, it sure looks like a Lionel "E" unit should fit. 
Photo is a bottom view of a 252.

swede


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Swede, I tried placing an E unit as T-man showed above, then attempted to place the body onto the frame. There isn’t enough clearance (height of E-unit), to let the body close onto the frame.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks, Doc. 
The height of the Marx reverser is the same as the Lionel (less lever), so it is not a fit, either.

swede


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Then there is the American Flyer Reverse Mechanism too! Not tooo tall with width to fit.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

T-Man, although I've worked on a few AF locomotives, including their reversers, I don't own any and don't recall their dimensions relative to the Lionel or Marx units which are ~2" in height.


Thanks, swede


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

rrswede said:


> Thanks, Doc.
> The height of the Marx reverser is the same as the Lionel (less lever), so it is not a fit, either.
> 
> swede


Also, the Marx unit will not operate upside down, at 90 degrees or even 45 degrees from upright. I don't know about other brands of e-units.

In case anyone wanted to tilt the Marx unit ...


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I played around with my 248, and the only way to get a Lionel E unit, was to have it laying flat, where the Plunger was laying horizontally, and the lever was on top. It was a really tight fit, and I doubt it would work in that position. There just not enough room inside the body, to get enough clearance, without major cutting.hwell:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My olde with no lever or insulating plate will fit. The coil wires will have to be moved to the side towards the engine. I am using the opposite side of the lever pendulum assy. This is the 248. I do have a 252 but haven't dragged it out yet.


Next step is to make a holding bracket.


After that I will have to decide if I want to do it.


They can be mounted sideways. All you need is a return spring.


I cannot remember where I saw it


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have a perfect subject. 




















The American Flyer reverse unit


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Possible solution*

I think I have the solution, with the Correct E-unit. The 1946 Model 726 & 671 loco’s used a horizontal E unit, that had a spring to push the plunger back into position, to effect the ratcheting motion during the cycling of E unit. The part numbers, although identical Units, are 726-51 or 671-50. I checked real quick, and found a price abt. $29, from Trainz. You can search other venders for a cheap price. I used an early Prewar E unit as a test fit, and this should work. THE CHEAPEST PRICE IS FROM TRAINZ.COM, OTHERS ARE IN $65 range. If direct from Trainz, cost is $24.99 + shipping. They also have one listed on eBay for $28+, and shipping.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Frame modification*

To make the intended E unit fit, so the body has clearance to mount to frame, you need to take some metal off the frame, (approx. 1/8”), so the body can close down on the frame. Note the Red Arrow, and you need to take enough off for the E unit to sit far enough back.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

MSMike, T-Man and Doc, thanks for continuing to think this issue through. 

After T-Man mentioned the word "spring", I did some Googling and spotted many references to this "E" unit. Somewhere along the line I acquired a bunch of "E"unit parts. One included a plunger assembly with a return spring. At the time, I didn't know how it was used so I totally disassembled it. The spring is probably with my extra springs.

When I end up with a 248 in the future, I intend to install the horizontal unit as described by Doc. 

This is a good thread to file away.

Thanks, swede


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Swede, I thought I remembered, there was an E unit that worked in the horizontal position. After placing the standard E unit, as the photos showed, I started looking for the E unit that worked in the horizontal positin. Sure enough, I stumbled across the 1946 version used in the 671 & 726 locos. That is a definite work around to add an E unit to some Prewar “Electric” locos.:appl::smilie_daumenpos:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Just seeing all of this. Very interesting thread, guys. Good ideas. I had forgotten about horizontal e-units with the return spring.

Nice brainstorming, guys!!!

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

To start I had to deal with the notches.





















The bracket will work nicely.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

Looking good, T-Man. Are you doing this work on your 248 or is it your 252?

swede


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, I must be missing something with T-man’s photos. I can understand the making of a bracket, BUT, the E unit appears to sit too high for clearance to attach the body to the frame. It appears to me that any E unit would have to mount horizontally to give you clearance to put the body onto the frame. :dunno::dunno:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Let me explain. The unit is high but the holes are not drilled out. The unit will rest on the frame. The picture was awkward and I just wanted it to be level. It is the 248. It has no reverse switch and this unit is so broken up it will work nicely. As I said before it is a good idea. Of course I am taking my sweet time

I did peek at the 252 and it has more room on the ends.

Remember that gondola I fixed. The metal came form the same toaster!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> Remember that gondola I fixed. The metal came form the same toaster!


:laugh::appl::smilie_daumenpos:


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

T-Man said:


> Let me explain. The unit is high but the holes are not drilled out. The unit will rest on the frame. The picture was awkward and I just wanted it to be level. It is the 248. It has no reverse switch and this unit is so broken up it will work nicely. As I said before it is a good idea. Of course I am taking my sweet time
> 
> I did peek at the 252 and it has more room on the ends.
> 
> Remember that gondola I fixed. The metal came form the same toaster!


Might it be easier to bolt the E-unit directly to the 242's main frame?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is an idea. A simple u frame tied to the frame at the center.

I got it to fit.






























A snug fit height wise.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Those 248 engines are great little runners the single and double reduction motors are reliable and a joy to run.
Thanks for sharing.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

very nice bash, T-Man. Tight squeeze, but it fits. Well done!

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It is time to take a look at the 248 again. Currently I have been cleaning 259e motors and I inspected the spare motor mentioned in this thread and found problems.

The 248 uses an SLS 27.




















The third motor came with one but I discovered it did not fit.
The brush holders were up against the armature.




















What I learned is the SLS-27 brush plate is thicker and requires a higher bushing that is 7/16ths of an inch. The spare which we think is a 252 motor has only 5/16ths bushings. The 259e I cleaned has a black brush plate 752M-56 and I used that on the spare just to see if worked. It did!. One problem with the brush plate is the brushes are too far apart.
The brushes ride on the edge.










I have come to the conclusion that this motor frame does not go with the armature or the brush plate. The parts are good but are from different engines. The armature and brush plate are consistent with a 248.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

In a pinch one could put a washer uner the brushplate/over bushings to raise it enough for the brush holders to have enough clearance.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The post is not flat. The brush plate would then be above the bushing. Then the hole is larger than the screw. Then there is no clearance for the armature. It is not long enough.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Shave the bruh holder ends a tad?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I could but I needed one for another plate.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It is important to know the metal brush plate needs more clearance than the black one.

I reviewed my 248 reverse project and removed it for now. The Pawl keeps getting stuck. I plan to replace it in the future. I did add a switch to the frame because that reverse unit does not have a lever.

I used a 1/4 inch block and epoxied the switch to it. I wrap the switch in electrical tape or else the epoxy will seep in.




















These switches are handy for smoke units too. I always keep some on hand.


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