# New Lionel Legacy H10, a Few Issues!



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I got my H10, and the test run was flawless, seems great, Everything appears to work, and good smoke, good sound, neat swinging bell, life is good.









I decided to open the tender to install a YLB to maintain the sound over switches and dirty track, after all, I know the maker and he gives me a good deal. 

First hurdle, I couldn't get a screw out. Upon closer examination, it's small wonder why! Clearly, an assembly worker with the Tim Taylor complex, MORE POWER! Probably has something to do with the cheap Chinese screws as well, it doesn't take much to bugger them up.









Another screw was a little buggered up, but not nearly as bad.









I managed to get the screws out, so I popped the top off and I see this on the top board that has the volume pot and lighting connectors. That's not good!









I look below where that connector is on the frame, and YIKES. The center roller wire is smashed flat, that's obviously stuck tightly against the connectors on top! If that one wears through, all the magic smoke will certainly be gone!

I took a bit more than 1/8" off the mounting bracket for the sound board to give a little additional clearance, and I put some heatshrink on the damaged wires.









I'm just done fixing those issues when I notice something odd about the coupler. YIKES! One push of the uncoupler and I'd have likely had to replace the driver board!









While I'm replacing the coupler, I treat myself to a shorter coupler to make the coupling a bit tighter to the rolling stock. This probably affects running on O31 curves, but I'm not going to do that anyway.

OK, time to put the tender back together, but there's a problem! Something is still hitting, and it's not the connectors, I've dressed those wires out of the way. Turns out, it's the capacitor on the Railsounds board jammed up against the top board in the tender. The frame is rocking on the capacitor, the factory solution was just to use a bigger screwdriver and ram it down!

That's clearly not a good issue, and this is after taking some material off the mount to lower it. It must have been bending the mount almost down to the frame, just pushing on that capacitor! I'm sure it wouldn't have lasted long before the cap came loose from the PCB, not a good situation. I decided to angle the board off to one side to get the capacitor out from under the top board, finally the shell goes back on without hitting anything.









With the shell back on, looking it over, I see another issue. The hinges on the deck opening stick way up and leave a gap! That'd not right, but I know what is happening. The fact that they had clearance problems that they didn't address properly anyway, they made the mounting posts too short, so that made the tender water lid stick up like this.









GAD! Another fix. I found some washers of the right size and put them under the tender box lid screws so that it pulls the lid down where it should be. This is only possible because I moved the board do the cap wasn't pressing on it, otherwise that would have been an issue.









So, wiring repaired, new coupler, and spacers on the deck lid, I finally have a tender back together that looks right and I think I can trust running it without smoke and flames.

The worrisome part of all this is the locomotive is clearly much more stuffed, what surprises are in there waiting to bite me in the butt! Do I have to start taking everything Lionel ships apart to see what they screwed up?

How about you, ordering any more Lionel locomotives?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

WOW! Good thing you found the potential problems. Could've been a mess later.

You shouldn't have to take a new locomotive apart to check workmanship. Should be ensured when you purchase. Many folks don't have the great knowledge you've been so generous to share with us, not to mention voiding warranty. Heck of a situation to be in, if you know what I mean...

I'm not buying anything new from Lionel until some QC issues are addressed and they deliver a quality product again. Not trying to sound boastful here, but Lionel lost a good customer when I decided not to purchase their items. Self control is a wonderful attribute!


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2018)

This is really disappointing, John. I don't order BTO locomotives and don't run scale trains so it doesn't affect me directly but it's not good that Lionel can't seem to make a Legacy locomotive without issues. I would be very unhappy if I paid that much for an engine and it had those problems. Definitely not good.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just when you think Lionel's lack of quality can't get any worse they pull this. How low can they go. Stay tuned.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)




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## Guest (Nov 30, 2018)

One word that comes to mind, *SCARY*.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm somewhat reluctant to pull the top off the locomotive, I can't imagine what I'll find there!


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Guys, this is why I qualified my comments about the new Lionel passenger cars to be purely in the "cosmetic" domain.  It's pretty bad when we're spending these kinds of dollars -- only to have this lingering feeling of what gremlins are lurking under the covers because of shoddy craftsmanship.

When I was growing up as a kid in the 1960's, "made in Japan" was akin to junk. But by the time I was old enough to drive, "made in Japan" had an entirely respectable meaning to it when looking to buy upscale luxury touring cars.

Ironically, when I got back into this hobby, "made in Korea" implied we were getting products made by the best factories in the business. Today, I'm not so sure. And "made in China" is clearly a phrase that causes apprehension more than comfort... until we know exactly what we got.

Whatever the case may be, Lionel now has a MAJOR image problem with respect to quality control. Even die-hard enthusiasts now CAREFULLY open their new purchases and PRAY!  And what John discovered underneath the covers on his new H-10 is a perfect example of why that's now the norm. 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

On a lighter note, the moguls are do back by the end of the year. LOL


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

superwarp1 said:


> On a lighter note, the moguls are do back by the end of the year. LOL


Is that 2019 or 2020??


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Unbelievable, not all of us are able to repair things like this like Gunrunnerjohn is.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

sorry to hear your H-10 had so many issues John! this is food for thought only but do you suppose due to new trade changes with china this is a way for the china employees to make a point at your $$ expense?
as to lionel well folks none of our so called American companies selling trains actually manufactures them so QC is non existent due to that reason not that it excuses lionel from due diligence with so many QC issues for them common sense would dictate someone from lionel is in china checking for issues prior to shipment but then I don't hold a degree in hand i'm just an old timer that took pride in what I made for the company I worked for.

I have a saying it applies to this "like sheep to slaughter" once you all padlock your wallets to lionel only then will they get the message mine has been closed since 2014!

I truly hope all are not like this one John happened to get. as to not opening the engines boiler John after the tender issues do you really have faith in the engines assembly?

these are only my thoughts on said subject the rest of you are also entitled to your opinion as well.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm on board with the Lionel concerns. My last, new, Lionel locomotive was the Amtrak F40PH. Just like John with his H10, I had to make several modifications including the trucks because they caught on the body. Its been running pretty good since, but out of the box it would not even roll through a curve.

My whole layout is Lionel powered. Very unfortunate what has happened to a great name.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Jeff T said:


> Is that 2019 or 2020??


You know what, I don’t think Lionel gave me a year when I asked. :dunno:


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

It's always cross your fingers when you purchase a new engine from Lionel. I just purchased a new Pacific (4-6-2) that just arrived at dealers. I did not preorder it because wanting to see it first. It's nice engine and runs well but I have not looked at taking the tender a part. I don't have the electrical knowledge to spot defects in poor quality like John and others can. I debated preordering the H10 too but I am glad I did not after seeing this review. I will need to take look at my new Pacific a little closer. It has a different tender with more space but the coupler could have the same issue but hopefully not. I did preorder a Mountain from Lionel from this last catalog which I don't usually do because you never know what you will be getting vs the catalog artwork let alone the quality but I know I am taking a chance. 


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

WOW, truly very shoddy workmanship from the Lionel manufacturing facility. If I was the CEO of Lionel I would have an inspector at the manufacturing facility looking over the shoulders of these assemblers.

I have not purchased a new Lionel loco for a few years now and have no intentions of doing so. Their track record is just to suspect for me to purchase any of their big buck locos . I read where the orange & blue faithful send back their $1600 to $2000 steamers 2 to 3 times before they are operating properly and they just shrug it off. NO THANK YOU, I don't play that game.

Bill


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The rounded off Philips head screw made me think of Menards. I have seen a few of them on Menards trucks. Menards has good cars for a good price, but I have found that you usually have to fiddle with them to get them to work right. And the more I read, the more I thought of the parallel. That Lionel loco is actually a good price for a modern steamer, but it seems like you had to do quite a bit of fiddling to make it right.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I had that kind of screw issue on several of the F3 units I got.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Lehigh74 said:


> The rounded off Philips head screw made me think of Menards. I have seen a few of them on Menards trucks. Menards has good cars for a good price, but I have found that you usually have to fiddle with them to get them to work right. And the more I read, the more I thought of the parallel. That Lionel loco is actually a good price for a modern steamer, but it seems like you had to do quite a bit of fiddling to make it right.


I don't have any problem with fiddling around with a $20 Menards boxcar. I have a huge problem with fiddling around with a locomotive that runs from $500 to $2000.

Bill


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Not surprised at this, but I noticed in Charlie Ro's "just in" blast this morning that 4 of the 6 H-10 liveries ordered are already "sold out". Only Pennsylvania and Long Island liveries remain in their store's inventory.

For the features vs. price tag, this was bound to be a popular seller. Now let's just hope that shoddy factory workmanship doesn't get the best of us on this popular item.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Apparently, some of the other models had the boards in a different orientation. It was suggested that maybe I got one assembled incorrectly, but the wiring harnesses don't allow the board to be turned, so they obviously wanted it this way.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> How about you, ordering any more Lionel locomotives?


Uhhh, maybe not. I wanted a nice H10, but . . . no. I think MTH makes one, if not I will just pass. 

I have an ABA set of Black Bonnet Legacy PAs on pre-order from Pat's Trains. Lionel is making me nervous but I will stick with the order and hope for the best. But no more after that until I see some quality - and I mean no excuses at all on the quality . . .

I was running nine PS3 MTH locos earlier this afternoon. All all new within the last two years. All were perfect out of the box and have never given any trouble.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Some other folks got them and they had the boards in a different configuration. A couple had damage like mine. I think someone mad a mistake on this particular model and put the boards in wrong. Not enough slack to turn them around, so my fix is as good as it gets.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Uhhh, maybe not. I wanted a nice H10, but . . . no. I think MTH makes one, if not I will just pass.
> 
> I have an ABA set of Black Bonnet Legacy PAs on pre-order from Pat's Trains. Lionel is making me nervous but I will stick with the order and hope for the best. But no more after that until I see some quality - and I mean no excuses at all otn the quality . . .
> 
> I was running nine PS3 MTH locos earlier this afternoon. All all new within the last two years. All were perfect out of the box and have never given any trouble.


MTH did make an H10 and also an H9 though I think the H9 is based on the Western Maryland 2-8-0 in excursion service. I have one lettered for NYC. Close but not an exact model of any NYC consolidation. At least it doesn't have a Belpaire firebox which would be the give away.
Lately I have been much happier with my MTH engines. Sound may not be a match for Legacy but fit, finish, detail, and mechanical relibility more than make up for it.

Pete


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## pennwest (Sep 21, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Uhhh, maybe not. I wanted a nice H10, but . . . no. I think MTH makes one, if not I will just pass.



Lee, If you're looking for a nice H10 model then take a pass on the Lionel. It is not an H10 at all, but instead is a fairly poor model of a PRR H9. The poorness primarily comes from the fact that Lionel re-used the mechanism from a Union Pacific Harriman 2-8-0 for the model. This means the drivers are too small and too widely spaced for a PRR H9/H10. For a Pennsy fan, the Lionel is not even close.

The best 3-rail models of the PRR H10 are the MTH diecast and Weaver brass models. The Weaver suffers from a too fat smokestack to fit the Seuthe smoke unit but is otherwise a really good model. The MTH Proto-2 H10 would be your best bet for good conventional running.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the Lionel is really an H9 anyway, at least according to the builder's plate.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Splice in added wire and turn that board around if it would fit better the other way.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Everything fits now, and I don't have to start hacking the harness.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is what really gets me with Lionel. No doubt they have seen johns post on the other forum. Time for a statement about this. Yes we are sorry we will do right by you. Our yet another QC failure will be addressed and we will strive to do better. Instead we hear night crickets out of North Carolina


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

Picked up my H10 today and everything seems good. I was surprised I ordered the Pennsylvania Lined model but very satisfied with it. There might be an issue with the smoke but I'll play with it some more a see how it goes.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> This is what really gets me with Lionel. No doubt they have seen johns post on the other forum. Time for a statement about this. Yes we are sorry we will do right by you. Our yet another QC failure will be addressed and we will strive to do better. Instead we hear night crickets out of North Carolina


It took them about 6 weeks after we reported the issue with loctited screws on the Niagaras for them to send out a service bulletin. Maybe next year on this.

Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I e-mailed Pats Trains and pre-ordered the MTH H10. 

That will do me.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It runs good and looks good, and I feel a little better about the locomotive. When I get a chance, I am going to pull the boiler to check under there. After seeing the tender, I'm a little nervous about what I might find.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

John - overall would you recommend this loco? I've pre-ordered the MTH H10, but the Lionel isn't that expensive, and I was thinking if might be worth taking a chance - it would be nice to have two H10s actually, they are such a nice small loco. O mayber not . . . ?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Once I sorted these out, it seems to run well. It's certainly feature packed for the price.  FWIW, many of the other folks that got different models in the same line didn't see the issues, apparently just one specific configuration was assembled incorrectly and encountered these issues. Maybe mine was a Monday morning build.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I ordered one from Pat's Trains this morning. It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Once I sorted these out, it seems to run well. It's certainly feature packed for the price.  FWIW, many of the other folks that got different models in the same line didn't see the issues, apparently just one specific configuration was assembled incorrectly and encountered these issues. Maybe mine was a Monday morning build.



Possible that Lionel has more than one factory assembling these?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee Willis said:


> Well, I ordered one from Pat's Trains this morning. It will be interesting to see what happens.


Let's hope you get one without all the "extras". 



superwarp1 said:


> Possible that Lionel has more than one factory assembling these?


Could be, I don't know what happened.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

John,
I remember you posted somewhere about adding battery in tender but it appears Lionel no longer puts connections for batteries in tenders. I opened my new 4-6-2 tonight hoping to add battery but found no connection for one. Where do you get the part from and how do you connect it to the board in the tender?

Thanks

Ken


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

John, pull the top off the loco .... kind of curious, lol


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ken, the RailSounds-Lite board that is the base for all the Legacy sounds nowadays has connections for the 9V battery tether, see the upper right corner of the board. What Lionel doesn't supply is the actual battery cable, and apparently you can no longer get them from Lionel.

I'm going to create an additional line of my YLB products that are for Legacy and have a direct connection to the battery plug on the RS-Lite board.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ken, the RailSounds-Lite board that is the base for all the Legacy sounds nowadays has connections for the 9V battery tether, see the upper right corner of the board. What Lionel doesn't supply is the actual battery cable, and apparently you can no longer get them from Lionel.
> 
> I'm going to create an additional line of my YLB products that are for Legacy and have a direct connection to the battery plug on the RS-Lite board.
> 
> View attachment 474998


Would like to know the reasoning why Lionel doesn't supply the plug anymore and why they don't produce them to boot. I still get engines where the spacing of the pickup rollers is just right for the sounds to drop out in the tender over switches, crossing or what have you.


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## papa3rail (Oct 8, 2016)

Makes you want to swear off buying anything new from Lionel.I'm thinking of asking Santa for the Empire State Express w/ PT Tender from 2015 Catalogue as there seems to be several still on the market, does anyone know of any issues with that particular locomotive.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> Would like to know the reasoning why Lionel doesn't supply the plug anymore and why they don't produce them to boot. I still get engines where the spacing of the pickup rollers is just right for the sounds to drop out in the tender over switches, crossing or what have you.


Can't really tell you why, I just know they don't supply them.  Since I know what connector it is, I just make my own.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

papa3rail said:


> Makes you want to swear off buying anything new from Lionel.I'm thinking of asking Santa for the Empire State Express w/ PT Tender from 2015 Catalogue as there seems to be several still on the market, does anyone know of any issues with that particular locomotive.


A club member has one. It was capable of pulling 14 21" K-Line cars. Pretty impressive. Later it stopped dead and had to be sent back to Lionel.

FYI, I have the Century Club version. Identical cosmetically. It has a Pittman motor vs a Canon for the Legacy version. The standard tender has 2 50 mm Fatboys. The Legacy tender has 2 40 mm Fatboys. The PT tender for the CC engine has 4 40 mm fatboys.
The Legacy version has whistle steam and 4 chuffs. The CC version only 2 chuffs.

Plusses and minuses for both.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Can't really tell you why, I just know they don't supply them.  Since I know what connector it is, I just make my own.


In my legacy mikado which was released in 2017 I just had to add a battery. This engine was set up for the battery so I’m wondering when the cut off was. When did Lionel stop adding the cable for batteries?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Can't say, but the VL-BB doesn't have them.


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## papa3rail (Oct 8, 2016)

Norton said:


> A club member has one. It was capable of pulling 14 21" K-Line cars. Pretty impressive. Later it stopped dead and had to be sent back to Lionel.
> 
> FYI, I have the Century Club version. Identical cosmetically. It has a Pittman motor vs a Canon for the Legacy version. The standard tender has 2 50 mm Fatboys. The Legacy tender has 2 40 mm Fatboys. The PT tender for the CC engine has 4 40 mm fatboys.
> The Legacy version has whistle steam and 4 chuffs. The CC version only 2 chuffs.
> ...


Thanks Pete,since I've given up on ever seeing the 20th century limited Dreyfuss Hudson done with Legacy i'm considering the Empire state express.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

You may be able to swap the Canon motor for a Pittman. Lionel has Pittmans in stock. On the larger motors the flywheels and speed sensors are held on with set screws so no special tools needed.
Canons have a reputation for failing. 

If you run DCS The MTH Dreyfuss and ESE Hudsons are even nicer looking.

Pete


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ken, the RailSounds-Lite board that is the base for all the Legacy sounds nowadays has connections for the 9V battery tether, see the upper right corner of the board. What Lionel doesn't supply is the actual battery cable, and apparently you can no longer get them from Lionel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



John
Thanks for the information. I will be interested in purchasing one or 2 when you have them available. I found out recently that my Legacy engines run much better over switches and even on some spots of my track that constantly cause the sound to cut out. A Battery solves the problem of needing to to reset your engine all the time with Legacy remote if you have this problem.



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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> Canons have a reputation for failing.


You said a mouthful! I've gotten two Legacy steamers in with dead Canon motors, in both cases the motor was a dead short. In both cases they also smoked the $120 RCMC as well. I was able to replace the drivers on one of the RCMC boards, but the other one had actually charred the circuit board around the drivers and no fix was possible. I'm not impressed with the Canon motor, and I'd much rather have the Pittman!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I took the shell off the H10, couldn't resist after taking it for a club run. Much to my surprise it all looked pretty clean in there, none of the ugly stuff I found in the tender. It would still be cool to get a replacement harness for the tender so I could turn the board around, which is why nothing fits in the first place! hwell:


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

What's the price difference between a pittman and a Canon? How much is Lionel actually saving. If John has seen a few failures, how many has Lionel's customer service seen?


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Seems like the assemblers on the Chinese production line really don't give a crap in pride in their workmanship.

Bill


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2019)

Time to break out the tools. Since it looks like I will be off work for a while I might as well crack open some engines and see what's what. I guess the first order of business will be replacing low quality over torqued twisted screws and going from there. A lot of people mention Lionel and Quality Control in the same sentence. With the Chinese owning the factories, jigs, and blueprints I believe that Lionel does not have much control over what the factories produce. They just have to try and deal with irate customers. China has shipped dogfood containing ground melamine, baby mobiles and toys with lead paint. Extremely thin walled copper piping waiting to blow and black iron fittings with pinholes already in place. Hell they weld pipe over there with a piece of newspaper over their faces with eyeholes cut out of it!! We, like Lionel just roll the dice. I promised myself I would never buy anything MADE IN CHINA. In fact I went out of my way to do this. Now I find myself in the model train hobby and have nightmares about the motive power I purchase. I don't have a real solution for this as everything I have thought about entails copious amounts of cash either from myself and or the model train companies themselves. To bring manufacturing back to North America or to send it to a more reliable and stable country would mean basically starting from scratch. BIG$$. In the meantime we rely on the dealer network for repairs or the companies themselves or doing the work ourselves or by someone we know. Looking at the photos that John has posted show some of the relatively easier fixes. A pain in the *** yes. Not insurmountable. Fried boards are another story, but, where there is a will there is a way.

Keep On Keepin'On,

Gary.


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