# Gargraves Turnouts



## RJC (Nov 30, 2017)

When the tender of my steam locomotives contact the frog, they stop dead. Applying a slight amount of pressure to the frog against the rail works. I have tried to gently bend the frog but no luck. My diesel locomotives run fine. The problem has nothing to do with the Tortoise machine because I removed them to try and solve the problem. This problem exists on all three Gargraves turnouts.

Help is truly appreciated.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Since the diesels run through the turnouts fine, I doubt the problem is with the turnouts.
I would work on the steamers. Try cleaning and shinning the metal wheels of the tender.
Clean the tender axles and the copper strips where they touch the axles. Check for proper
tension of copper strips to the axles. All 4 tender axles need to be picking up electric for
the loco to get through the turnouts. Let us know outcome. I have never used gargraves
turnouts, maybe someone that does knows some tricks.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't have Gargraves turnouts either but it may be the shorter tender trucks if you're running Atlantics. If you have one with 3 spring trucks, see if that gets thru without stalling. Also, if you have a Hudson or Northern, both have longer tender trucks and pick up shoes to help with continuity. Try all of mopacs suggestions first. You would be surprised how much a good cleaning of those items makes.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Give them a call....1-315-483-6577.. You can speak to either Mike or Tom, they're co-owners of GarGraves, and friends of mine.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## RJC (Nov 30, 2017)

MoPac, Cramden and Flyernut, thanks for your quick and thoughtful responses. I am running an AF 4-8-4 Northern, an American Models 4-8-4 Northern and an AF 4-6-4 Hudson. None will run! The AF 4-8-4 had a can-motor installed this past month.

What I do not understand is that when the engine "stops" I can get it to run again by slight pressure placed on the frog contact rail.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't understand why the diesels run through turnouts and the steamers don't. The
diesels run without the slight pressure on the rail. That tells me the turnouts are fine.
If you have a multimeter check that all steamer tender axles are picking up electric. I
still think that is where the problem is. It is weird that all the steamers have that problem.

Like flyernut said, give gargraves a call. It wouldn't hurt. They have probably run across this problem.
Gargraves might be able to tell you how to energize the frog and that should take care of the problem.

Has this always been a problem since you got the gargraves turnouts. It is a puzzle. I doubt all the
turnouts are bad and I doubt all the tenders are bad. Give gargraves a call.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

This morning I looked at one of my flyonel diesels and I think the wheels are spaced
farther apart than tender wheels. I think you have dead frogs and need live frogs.
Gargraves should be able to tell you how to energize the frogs. On the diesels with the wider spacing of wheels one wheel will be on a rail so no problem. Steamer wheels
evidently does not span the frog. If both tender wheels are on a dead frog she won't run.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

It sounds like the points aren't staying tight against the rail as the engine runs thru the turnout. I'm not familiar with their design so I don't know how tight the points are to the rail. Did you try holding the turnout throw from moving when an engine runs thru it? I also found this on Gargrave's site about their manual switches concerning that they were re-designed to eliminate problems. I wonder if your switches are the older version? I agree it might be best to give them a call, they may be able to help you. One other thing to check is the gauge of the drivers and tender wheels to eliminate that as a problem. Link didn't work, sorry. On their web site they talk about a re-designed turnout for "S"


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I am much more familiar with HO turnouts. On many of mine there is actually a screw
on backside of turnout to put a power wire to so that frog is live. If you got a manual with
the turnouts see if they mention energizing the frog.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

RJC, I could be way off that the frog is the problem. I just looked at one of my AF turnouts
and the actual frog is plastic, so no way to energize. But it is a very short frog and easily fits between tender wheels, so one tender wheel is always on a rail. I have no idea how long a gargraves frog is. Plastic or metal, I don't know.


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## RJC (Nov 30, 2017)

Mopac and Cramden,

Thanks again for your advice.

Dick


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Well, we tried. I bet if you call gargraves, they have run across this problem and
can tell you a fix. Probably something simple. Let us know the fix once you find out what it is.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Hopefully I am the only one confused by this thread. GarGraves turnouts do not have frogs in the sense Gilbert or FasTrack turnouts do. They are a "closed frog" design like the Gilbert turnouts but on the GarGraves turnouts the straight and diverging rails just end without touching each other or without either a plastic or metal Frog piece. 
If the layout is relying on point to rail contact for power supply that is an unreliable way to wire the layout. It also explains why the diesels work but not steam engines. The diesels are heavier than any Gilbert tender so they push harder on the point rails allowing them to make better contact.
There are two ways to fix this. First is use Tortoise machines to operate the turnout. Tortoise machines apply a constant pressure so the rails will always be in firm contact. Second is to power the "movable frog" or point rails with a relay that applies power to them based on the direction the turnout is thrown. This is how turnouts in scale 2 rail layouts are wired.


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## RJC (Nov 30, 2017)

AmFlyer
1. I am using Tortoise switch machines. I am working with them since they informed me that original wire that puts constant pressure on the switch may not be stiff enough. We will see.

2. Regarding the weight of a diesel loco vs. tender; I run an American Models 4-8-4 Northern that is very heavy and has a heavy tender.

3. Do you have a suggestion on how to "wire" the contact point thus allowing not to rely on pressure?

Thanks


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have both Tortoise and DZ2500 switch machines on my layout, based on physical clearance available. The Tortoise use the supplied actuating rod but the turnout frogs are separately powered. The GarGraves site indicates a stiffer rod is usually required for your type of installation, that should solve the issue. My turnouts are not GarGraves.
Here is the wiring diagram for powering the frogs on the turnouts poewered with the DZ2500. I seem to be missing the comparable diagram for the Tortoise. I will post it when I find it.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have two of the AM Northerns, agree they are heavy! 
Here is the wiring diagram for powering the turnout frog on a 2 rail layout with Tortoise machines.


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