# What are the things on the side of the turnout?



## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

OK, please don't laugh. I'm very sensitive. 

I ordered some Peco track so I can dump all my Bachmann stuff and build some kind of decent layout. I am now marveling over the incredible range of methods and products for controlling turnouts. And... I can't figure out what these things are? (See pic, with arrow). Are these just for mounting above-table motors? I see lots of pics/vids where they appear to have been cut off. Is that what you do if you're using a motor under the track?

Thanks.


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railroad_switch,_Grain_elevator_district,_Minneapolis.jpg

take a look and you will see its intended use in real life!!!


Cheers
Pat


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

and notice they don't put ballast down in there either.


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Those would be the extra long ties the ground throws would be mounted on. Checkout Caboose Industries ground throws, I use the sprung throws, #202S, on my HO railroad. In congested track areas, like a switch yard, I may cut those ties so they don't interfere with neighboring track. Where I don't have room for a ground throw or the reach would be too long, I will use a brass tube to go under the track (through the cork ballast) and put a piano wire in it. Bend the ends up at a 90 degree angle so one end is in the turnout points and the other at a ground throw mounted on the edge of the railroad.


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

OK, thanks. I guess that tells me what they are and why they are part of a model of a turnout. (I guess.) Is that what they call a "ground throw" switch? I've seen model versions of those. 

So, other than being prototypical (if that's the right word), is the purpose of these extended ties in modeling to be a place to mount an external motor (or ground throw)? And if people use under-track motors, do they just cut them off?


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

timlange3 said:


> Those would be the extra long ties the ground throws would be mounted on. Checkout Caboose Industries ground throws, I use the sprung throws, #202S, on my HO railroad. In congested track areas, like a switch yard, I may cut those ties so they don't interfere with neighboring track. Where I don't have room for a ground throw or the reach would be too long, I will use a brass tube to go under the track (through the cork ballast) and put a piano wire in it. Bend the ends up at a 90 degree angle so one end is in the turnout points and the other at a ground throw mounted on the edge of the railroad.


Ah, thanks, looks like we were typing at the same time. Very cool idea about the brass tube and piano wire, hadn't thought of that. I did see some interesting kind of like that from Fast Tracks - 

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/BullFrog-Manual-Turnout-Control-Unassembled-p/bf-0002.htm

Looked moderately complicated. Your method sounds much simpler. 

Is there anywhere online where this stuff is explained well? I've tried numerous searches, but most things (youtube etc) seem to assume you already know a fair amount. 

Thanks,

Mark


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Just-a-Guy said:


> Is there anywhere online where this stuff is explained well? I've tried numerous searches, but most things (youtube etc) seem to assume you already know a fair amount.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark


Mark

Peco has two types of twin coil turnout motor, one to use the long stiff wire to 
operate the throw through a small drilled hole as the guys have said.
They also make a model that attaches directly to the turnout but 
requires a rectangular hole about 1 inch square in the layout board.
If you don't mind the cutting, it is the easiest to install and it eliminates
the some times difficult alignment.

You also can use the Tortoise brand motor. It also uses a long wire
to throw the points but does it slowly with a geared motor. If you go
with these, you will have to remove the 'latching' spring in the
turnout throw bar. I think the Peco instruction sheet tells you how
to do this.

The turnout in your pic appears to be Electrofrog which will require the
insulated joiners, gap in the rails, or other means to avoid a short
circuit. But, didn't we discuss that in another thread?

Don


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

DonR said:


> Mark
> 
> Peco has two types of twin coil turnout motor, one to use the long stiff wire to
> operate the throw through a small drilled hole as the guys have said.
> ...



Hello Don,

The turnout is a Peco Insulfrog -- at least that's what I ordered and that's what it says on the package. I think I figured out, with help from you guys, the differences and how they work. Right now, as I hone in on a layout design, I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to power the switches. All options are "on the table" (no fun intended), except I really don't want to have to throw the switches by hand at the location of each turnout (too much reaching etc). 

Re the electric switch motors that mount next to the turnout above the table: these seem like the simplest approach, and I was going to use them (although not aesthetically ideal), but at this point I will have something like 12 switches in a relatively close area, and it just gets a little tight. (Is this the motor you mean that needs a 1 inch cutout? Not clear why?) 

So I was trying to figure out the under-track switches. I think I can manage these ok in terms of installing them. But then I'm kind of concerned about what to do in the case of malfunctions. If these are under the turnouts (under the trackbed, etc.), and the track is laid, ballasted, etc., how the hell do you get to the things if they need repair or replacement? From underneath? What if the turnout is elevated (mine will have 1-3 inches of foam, depending on location)? Do people cut and remove the track sections to get to the motor? 

The mechanical (non-electric) options do seem appealing. The Fast Track Bullfrogs are cool, but kind of complicated (and again, I'm tight on space). The approach timlange mentions sound very cool, and I think my son and I would enjoy making and installing them - and operating them, if it doesn't require reaching over the track. But even then, I wonder, if for some reason you have to get to the piano wire.... I guess in this setup it's just a whole let less likely there would be a need to do so? 

The Tortoise motors look awesome. But I'm inclined, in my KISS approach, to wait for "the next layout" for that level of coolness.  

Any wisdom on this quandary would be deeply appreciated. I'm just kind of overwhelmed by all the options and concerned about complexity and ability to repair etc.

Thank you!

Mark


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mark

Maybe you can do some 'ground throw' when the turnout
is easily reached, and power those 'out there'.

It is rare for a turnout motor to need any repairs so
that is not a concern. Test them before gluing them
down. Most motors are located under the table, just as you said, 
because there often is no room above. You cut off those protrusions
when motor is under table.

Now which motor is going to depend on what is going to
be easiest for you. I fiddled and faddled around with
the under the table motors with the wire thru a hole
to throw the points. It was frustrating trying to
achieve proper alignment. Finally, just gave up and
bought the Peco motors that attach to the under side
of the turnout with tabs that protrude thru the turnout.
You'll see the tiny rectangular holes for them on yours.

To use these you locate your turnout exactly on the
layout. Draw a square per the motor instructions. Then
drill and cut out the appx. 1" square hole. The turnout
then simply 'drops' in. You presolder short red, green and black
wires on the motor so you can use wire nuts under the
table that connect the wires back to your turnout control panel.
(you can tie all of the black wires together under your
layout. No need to bring but one black to your panel)
If you have 3" of foam, you probably would not need to
cut the wood, just a hole for the wires, but any lesser
thickness would require the big hole. (the 3" thickness
would require extension on any under table motor's
throw 'wire'.)

The Peco motors come with a regular or long throw 'wire'.
You would use the regular if you cut the holes per above.
You would use the long and possibly add to it if you go
the other way.

Sure glad they are Insulfrog, I looked closely and thot
I saw the insulation strip but was uncertain. Nice
looking turnouts. Love those Pecos.



D


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

I have a mix of ground throws and Tortise units. My newest Tortise is 20 years old and works fine. As for the brass tube and piano wire, there is not much to go wrong. The longest I made with the wire and tube was 20". You cannot tell the difference on length, the 20" operates just as well as a 2" distance would. I got the wire and tube at the model railroad shop. The wire just fits in the tube, no room for anything else, no lube needed, brass does not rust. You want the wire thick enough so it does not unbend, but not so thick you cannot bend it. Piano wire is pretty stiff, once bent it will not unbend. Don't cut it with snips, it will dull the blade, use a cutoff disk in a Dremel type tool.

I would measure from the center of the turnout points (centered in the turnout) to where you want the throw. Cut brass tube about 3/8" less that distance. Take piano wire and bend up at a 90 only one end high enough to engage the points, but not so high to be above rail height. Drill, cut, slice, ballast to get piano wire and tube to the turnout. Position where you want the throw and then bend the piano wire up and cut off at height to engage the throw bar.


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

DonR said:


> Maybe you can do some 'ground throw' when the turnout
> is easily reached, and power those 'out there'.


I think this may be what I do. 




> It is rare for a turnout motor to need any repairs so
> that is not a concern. Test them before gluing them
> down. Most motors are located under the table, just as you said,
> because there often is no room above. You cut off those protrusions
> when motor is under table.



Thanks. At least now I understand that much.  One question though ... if the motor does malfunction, what do you do? 




> Now which motor is going to depend on what is going to
> be easiest for you. I fiddled and faddled around with
> the under the table motors with the wire thru a hole
> to throw the points. It was frustrating trying to
> ...



I assume you mean something like this (when you refer to motors that "attach to the under side of the turnout")? 











Not this, right?











So, how do those (top photo) motors actually attach? They attach only to the turnout, right? Not to the table or the foam or something. So you can attach it to the turnout, then slide the wires through, and then set the turnout in place? 

Also, while I'm bothering you, is this what I would order if I also wanted to wire up lights that would indicate which way the turnout was pointing?










I assume that goes under the turnout motor? So the hole would have to be deeper (or all the way through)? 

Thank you for your patience and help (all of you)!

Mark


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mark

The PL-10 or PL-10 W (coils use less amps) motors fasten
directly to the
bottom of the turnout. Look closely at your turnout where
the points close against the rails. You'll see tiny rectangular
holes in the ties just outside the rails. There are 4 tabs on
the PL-10 that fit into these. When fully in, you bend over
the tabs to stabilize them. 

When you complete that, solder on the Red (curve) Green
(straight) and black (common) wires so you won't have to
do that awkwardly under the table. Make the drops about
6 to 8 inches depending on the thickness of your layout table.
You can use wire nuts to connect these to the cables going to
your turnout control panel.

The assembled turnout will drop right into the hole that you
cut out of the table per Peco instructions. They also guide you on
how to 'cover' the hole for ballasting.

I did not use the Peco electric switches that attach to
the motors so I'm uncertain where they go. They can
be used to control signalling, but they also were intended
to power the frog on Electrofrog models. 

The only thing that I can conceive to go wrong with a turnout
motor is burned out coils. This can be avoided by the use of
a Capacitor Discharge unit. The coils are burned out when
a button is pushed too long, for example. That can't happen
with the CDU. You push the button, and the power stored
in the cap throws your turnouts then dies until you release
the button whereupon it recharges instantly. Only one is needed for
the entire layout. You can buy one, or get a few Radio shack
parts and make your own. We have the circuit diagrams.

Don


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