# Peco Insulfrog Wiring Question



## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I am looking to make my Peco Insulfrog turnouts more electrically robust. I want to ensure good connections between all the turnout pieces especially since I will have limited access for repairs once scenery is installed.

I will solder jumpers between closure rails and stock rails. Peco conveniently placed access areas underneath to do this easily.

I also want to add a jumper to each point rail. Most likely from the adjacent closure rail.

Has anyone jumped the point rails? If so, how?

Thanks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I have 20 or so Peco insulfrog turnouts on my layout.
There has been no need for any additional jumpers on
the turnouts themselves. Unless you have little short
locos or older ones that don't have all wheel pickup,
you shouldn't have any loco power problems.

Having said that, the Insulfrogs are power routing.
So you may need a track drop from the point rails
to avoid power cut off to the divert when the turnout
is set to straight and vs vs.

Don


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Is a "...track drop..." a feeder? Or a jumper to the closure rail or stock rail?

If so, how do you solder a wire to the point rails without hindering motion?


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

As a rule since I went DCC I just run power to each of the rails entering and leaving the turnouts. This way there is no issue with dead rails.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

bonez said:


> Is a "...track drop..." a feeder? Or a jumper to the closure rail or stock rail?
> 
> If so, how do you solder a wire to the point rails without hindering motion?


Many of us call it a track drop, others a feeder. Don't solder to the
point rails or any place else on the turnouts.
They are powered internally by Peco.
Solder track drops to the two rails that connect to the 
turnout frog rails.

Some like to have a spur track where they can park
a loco unpowered. They use the Peco power routing feature
to turn it off. If you find that useful, use a track drop
only in the 'straight' frog rail. The divert track will be off
until the points are set to it.

Don


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

If you want to be sure of electrical integrity use servo controlled switch machine to hold the point blades to stock rail. I've had problems in this area as well.


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I am planning to use Circuitron SMAIL actuators. Will that hold the points against the rail ensuring better contact?


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Not familiar with the SMAIL machine but look like servo driven so should work, just seem rather expensive. 

I use the Tam Valley Singlet which uses a servo and am very pleased with them. They come with a small board with LED's which you can panel mount but you can also control them from your DCC command station as well.
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/microsinglet.html


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

bonez said:


> I am planning to use Circuitron SMAIL actuators. Will that hold the points against the rail ensuring better contact?


I have not used the SMAIL but have used the Tortoise. They are the same machine except the SMAIL contains the DCC components (I believe that is the only difference). The Tortoise holds the points well as long as it is getting power.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

In the several years of service I have not had any
point rail electric contact failures on my Peco
Insulfrogs. The 'locking' spring holds the point
rails solidly against the stock rails.

If, however, your layout is not in a climate controlled
area you may have to occasionally 'clean' the contact
points at the stock rails.

Don


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If you were having problems with the points not being powered then I would first look at cleaning the contact point with the stock rail. If the electrical contact is broken then you might take a short piece of 30 gauge wire an solder across the hinge, but there's a good chance of making things worse if you get solder in the hinge.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Access and electrical reliability*



bonez said:


> I am looking to make my Peco Insulfrog turnouts more electrically robust. I want to ensure good connections between all the turnout pieces especially since I will have limited access for repairs once scenery is installed.
> 
> I will solder jumpers between closure rails and stock rails. Peco conveniently placed access areas underneath to do this easily.
> 
> ...


bonez;

The infamous Mr. Murphy's law will come up and bite you in the posterior, if you bury a turnout under scenery to the point that you "have limited access". Peco turnouts are very reliable, but any turnout needs occasional cleaning and maintenance. Access, good access, is a necessity not a luxury. If your turnout is going inside a tunnel, perhaps you can leave the back side of the tunnel open; or build some sort of door.
As for the most electrically reliable, or robust, turnout that would be one with an isolated, powered, metal frog and the jumpers you suggested.(For more info on how to wire the jumpers, see my old posts in the "General Model Train Discussion" section. Use the search function to find, "Improving Atlas turnouts" and "How I make my own turnouts" both by traction fan. These posts have photos of the jumpers.) The electrical switching (current routing) should not be left to the point-against-stock-rail system. Rails can oxidize or get dirty. Instead, use an electrical switch, like the Micro-switch built into the Tortoise switch motor. That switch's internal contacts are designed expressly for electrical switching and are protected from dirt by the case of the Micro-switch.
O.K., from an IDEAL electrical reliability standpoint, that's as good as it gets. In fact that's the exact arrangement I build into the turnouts I make. Whether you will actually NEED all those things, or not, is another mater. If you are going to mount this turnout in a difficult to reach location, (NOT recommended) then I would use a Peco "electrofrog" turnout in that location. The electrofrog has most of the electrical features listed in the preceding "IDEAL" scenario built in. You can wire it as described. In normal use, the insulfrog turnouts with plastic unpowered frogs, routinely work very well. As mentioned only short wheelbase, or limited electrical pickup, locos may stall on the plastic frog. Any loco with all-wheel pickup will not stall, because when some of the wheels are on the frog, other wheels are still picking up power from the rails. So, it's your choice. Personally, I tend to be "intentionally pessimistic" on reliability issues. I don't think there's any such thing too much reliability; but that's just my opinion.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

As to the topic, I found that Peco Insulfrogs have a design flaw. The frog consists of two rails that ALMOST meet. The gap is so miniscule that many engines will bridge the gap and experience a short. People have used various fixes such as coating the frog points with nail polish or using a sanding stick to increase the gap. Here is a forum post on Model Railroad Hobbyist where someone suggested black paint. It is mind-boggling to me why Peco *Insul* *frog*s do not actually have an *Insul*ated *Frog*. It's false advertising in my book.

This image highlights the ridiculousless:













tkruger said:


> I have not used the SMAIL but have used the Tortoise. They are the same machine except the SMAIL contains the DCC components (I believe that is the only difference). The Tortoise holds the points well as long as it is getting power.


A Tortoise does not contain any DCC components. It just takes 12V and drives the motor in the direction of the polarity. We are using NCE SwitchIt II's to control our Tortoises. They are $25 for 2 outputs. I thought I'd jazz things up and came up with faceplates. The push buttons are from All Electronics. The LEDs provide a side benefit in that they drain some power from the Tortoise which slows the actuation a bit.


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