# Time for level 2



## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

I have my layout in an oddly shaped, rectangular room. At one point in my home's life this was a porch, and then somebody enclosed it. They did a beautiful job, but it leaves a kind of strange room. It's perfect for my layout, but somewhat confining too. 

So, I can't go wider . . . but I can go up. 

I tore down everything that I had put together, and added this second level. The main table is 5' x 14'. The second level is 3.5' x 8'. I placed a floodlight tower beneath it for scale.










For lighting I'm going to use a combination of floodlights, yard lights, and these really neat LEDs a friend of mine gave me. He's an electrician who upgrades lights in retail stores. These came from a bunch of coolers. Most of them are white light, but the fat bar also contains a set of really intense red lights.










I'm going to do some playing around with the space. I would like to get a rail to climb to the second level, but it depends on space constraints around the sides. I don't want that to greatly limit my options for paths on the main table.

Should be fun working this out.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

How high up is the second level? What scale are you running?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think the second level is too high for you to climb up with the space you have?
Unless maybe with a helix? But I don't think you have a space for a Helix either?


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

The top of the second level is 16". I run O.

I'm guessing I'll need to kind of helix up. Maybe a ramp up a long side, then curve and up the short side, etc.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

You may want to bring that second level down some. You only need about 5.5" - 6" of clearance for O gauge to clear under the second level leaving room for any wiring you may need to run along the underside. With 16", you are going to eat up a lot of real estate on the first level supporting the needed helix.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah, I've been considering that. I made it that tall because I wanted to set up flood light towers beneath it. Then, my friend gave me all of the LED lights so I don't need that now. I just need enough clearance for trains and low structures.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Besides some rail what else are you going to add up there?

Even at a height of 5.5" or 6", it would be a steep grade to climb without a long run to it?

Maybe you can cookie cutter piece it in for the rail, instead of a whole piece of flat wood up top?


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

Nah. At 6", you only need a little over 3'x3' to make the climb at an acceptable grade with O-36 curves:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

MuhThugga said:


> Nah. At 6", you only need a little over 3'x3' to make the climb at an acceptable grade with O-36 curves:


OK that looks acceptable.

How about if you make the top wider? Attach the supports to the side of the table instead of on the table?
You will have more room on the bottom level and the top to work with.
You would have a full 5'x8' on top and the full 5'x14' on the bottom to use?
Just a thought.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

The top is going to be a village with some related operating accessories, and the bottom is going to be more of the 'work' area with related accessories. As well as the more complex rail operations in support. 

Hmmm, stretching it to the full width might work. I also like the idea of shortening it to allow for a run up.

When I get back home from visiting my family in Ohio, I think that's what I'll do.

Thanks for the input!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

erkenbrand said:


> The top is going to be a village with some related operating accessories, and the bottom is going to be more of the 'work' area with related accessories. As well as the more complex rail operations in support.
> 
> Hmmm, stretching it to the full width might work. I also like the idea of shortening it to allow for a run up.
> 
> ...


You wouldn't have to shorten it up on top any?
MuhThugga said all you need is a 3' run?
According to what you posted you would have a 6' run?
8' (top)-14' (bottom)= a 6' run. Minus a foot for the curves that would give you a 5' run to the top? 
At those calculations you could even raise the top some? 
Though you will have to build the trestle parts or raise them somehow.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm going to do some playing with it tomorrow, once I get modifications and painting done. It'll be a fun experiment.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

So, I did a lot of measuring and thinking. I decided to widen a portion of the second level, and shortened it several inches. This gives me room to reach beneath to play with everything that's going on.

In the portion I added I decided a tunnel was really needed. I've always wanted a substantial tunnel on a layout.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

I painted the second level, and while it was drying I decided it was time to inventory my track. I've been picking it up here and there, and never really paid attention to how much I had. So, I broke out the boxes and stacked it up. This is a mix of O and O27.

Now, I need to clean most of it and pull and polish the pins. This is going to take a while.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Why don't you sell the O/27 and go with all O?
A lot here will tell you the O/27 is garbage.
I won't, but since yours is not down yet now is the time to do it.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

That's something I've debated a bit. One of the reasons I'm keeping it is my pile of 1121 switches. I'm a big fan of how they look, and prefer them to the O22, even though the O22s are functionally better.

I also don't mind O/27. It's always worked well for me. 

Of course my neighbors keep trying to convince me to sell all of my track and switch to theirs. I can see GarGraves headquarters and manufacturing from my porch.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Today I broke down and headed over to GarGraves and picked up a bunch of track. I'm going to use it for the outermost loop, and O then O/27 for the inner action areas. I'll also post up another thread with measurement comparisons among them.

I have to admit I'm beginning to rethink my use of the 1121 switches. Although I do love them, they are presenting problems O22s wouldn't. Not only is the pin size difference a pain, but I also want to run prewar engines that have problems with them. 

So, hmmmm. The debate continues.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That Gargraves track does look nice.:thumbsup:
Couple them with all Ross switches? Heck it is only money! 









This another line back here (red arrow)?
Too close to the top level bracket, it won't work with clearance?

You could take the 2 front brackets off the top level and add just one going to each side of the table and mount it on the side to get more workable room on your lower level?

Instead of using wood brackets attached on the side, use something like a small piece of angle iron with the wood beam running to each side.
Using the angle iron would be less intrusive mounted on the sides?

Where I have the little red circles are you could make a custom overhead signal light there. Using angle angle iron to cross over instead of wood might work with the custom overhead signals. Using metal wouldn't take up the space and stand out like the wood would.
Is that a train shed back there or is the track going to run through it? 
That will be a tunnel right? The overhead signal lights worked into the bracket might work?

Like always, just a thought.:smokin:


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks for the input! I really like the idea of running a piece of angle iron and moving the supports out to the edges of the layout. I think I have an appropriate piece in my scrap pile.

Where you have the red x's, those aren't runs. On the right that's just a piece of random track waiting for a home. On the left is where I'm going to have the run up to the second level, and I was playing around with placing the track. 

That is a tunnel back there, and I like your idea of the custom signal light. A lot of my time yesterday was spent making sure the rear side of the tunnel provided enough clearance for my largest engines and cars since it's pretty close to the curves on the back of the layout. 

Of course my cats think the tunnel is all for them, and I have to keep poking pieces of track back there to push them out. 

I really like the GarGraves track. I'm looking forward to completing the loop so I can start running on it, but I need to buy one more piece, and they're closed today.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T man found this old relic here,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=15603&highlight=signal

Hand fabricated?
You might get a few ideals from looking at it?

Just find the lights and a truss (?) beam to add them on to whatever your going to use to crossover (if you do) somehow?
I don't know if truss is the proper beam name to use?

I just threw the red dots on it quickly, I see the one track is just laying there.
You are going to have 2 lines coming out of "Cats" tunnel, right?


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

I remember that thread. That was a cool relic . . . I do have a Lionel signal bridge in operating condition. Even if I don't place lights on the beam, just placing the signal bridge beneath it might do the trick. Of course fabricating my own would be fun too. 

Yup, the 'Cat's Tunnel' does have 2 lines going through it. One of the benefits of the heavy cast aluminum engines is they push the cats out of the way.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

I started laying out the switching yard today, and installed all of the lighting beneath the second level. Since one of the big strips of LEDs had both red and white lights I added a switch so I could select which color was available.

Here's all white:










And with red:


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Of course my supervisor was on the scene to keep me at it. He doesn't allow any breaks. Getting a coffee meant sneaking away while he was otherwise occupied.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

This was a big day. Ed - I incorporated your input and moved the front supports of the second level to the outside, and picked up the load with angle iron (aluminum in this case). That really freed up some space.

The outer GarGraves loop is fully functional, and works like a dream. I need to get a cork roadbed beneath it to even out the height with the O22 switches, and now that it's working I can do that and screw it down.

The O loop is working as well. I need to do some more fine tuning of it to allow for a bit smoother operation. It's just about right, just needs trued up a bit more. Once that's set I'll tack it down as well. 

The yard is all in place, but I haven't tested it yet. It also needs trued up a bit more.

I did get the Burro crane in place with some trucks for it to swing around. 

Next up, lots of wiring to all the switches and track segments. I also need to get the elevated track built to the second level so I can begin laying track there.

I've left room on the lower level for buildings and operating accessories. 

I have a grocery list growing for the Amherst train show at the end of the month. I've already purchased my tickets and reserved my hotel room.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That opens up the bottom nice.:thumbsup:
Just another few thoughts I was thinking while looking at the picture.
You can ask me to stop thinking at anytime.

I know it is too late now, but looking at it again you could have added a 5x8 on the whole top using the angle metal all around? Leaving the whole bottom open. It would have added a 1 1/2' to the top for you too.

It might have been better making it so you can lift it up and off (with some help) till you get the bottom done. What would have been good is using all metal like you did in the front there all around. And where the angle fits to the sides have had some kind of bracket to allow you to just lift the whole top section on & off. Just slip the sides into the brackets. Though the tunnel would have made it hard to do that, just a 5x8 top (with help) you could have done that. The room you are in would have made it hard to lift on and off too. But it would have made it easier to work on the bottom for now. 

Tell me in the one picture it almost looks like the crossover metal piece is bowed a little in the middle? Is that the picture making it look that way? As you add to the top it will get heavier, maybe it needs a brace in the middle?
It is probably just the picture making it look that way.

I still don't see how you are going to add track running up to the top, it looks too steep?
Maybe it is the pictures?

I like the lights they really light it up under there.:thumbsup:


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Yup, I understand what you're saying. Keep the ideas coming. 

I'm not having any problems working on the bottom. There's just enough room for me to reach everything.

I played with the idea of making the top a full 5x8, but I decided to stick with it as is. I like the shape and leaving a bit more of the bottom open.

Yeah, the pics make that beam look curved. It's really solid.

About the elevated track ... I'm not sure I'll be able to pull it off either. I'm going to play with it and see if I can make it happen. I won't be heartbroken if it doesn't work out. It was something of a pie in the sky idea, and I do have a workaround in mind that could be cooler. More to come on that.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

That Gargraves track looks really nice. I'm half-tempted to abandon the Fastrack and switch to Gargraves.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

MuhThugga said:


> That Gargraves track looks really nice. I'm half-tempted to abandon the Fastrack and switch to Gargraves.


If you do couple them with Ross switches.
A lot say the Ross switches are better then the Gargraves.

They do look nice, huh?


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

And GarGraves is all U.S. made, and family owned and operated. 

If you're running O22 switches, there is a height difference. The switch is taller than the track, but cork bed beneath the track makes up the difference.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Today, I ran all of the track power. A friend of mine gave me a 250' roll of 4 lead thermostat wire last year, and it's definitely made running all of this wire much less expensive. 

Next on the list is running all of the wire for the switches, and cleaning up the controller for the 1121s. I picked up a 100' roll of 3 lead 22AWG wire for this bit of work. I hope it's enough.

Then, comes hookup all of the uncouplers. I'm still debating running each uncoupler to its own controller, or one controller and a selector switch. I kind of like having a bunch of buttons on the control panel.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I hit gold one day a couple of months ago.
One of my stops was doing a lot of remodeling and had a big dumpster filled with what use to be an office. They tore it all down wires and all and put it in the dumpster. It was still attached to the wall studs and lights and switches. Real long lengths.

As I was unloading I was out there ( after getting permission) pulling wire out in over 30' lengths till I couldn't pull anymore because of the debris on top of them. All different gauges.:thumbsup: I pulled it till I couldn't pull no more and snipped them with my wire cutter. Some of the wire are at least 50' long maybe longer.

I rolled them up and filled up a big box with wire. A whole bunch. I probably grabbed easily over a couple of thousand feet of wire.
I got them in my basement now.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

That's awesome! I can't believe they didn't at least pull all that wire for copper scrap. Great score!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

My buddy worked for the phone company years ago, he used to bring me the telephone wire he pulled out of the boxes he worked on.
The kind that was in the casing and the inside the casing were maybe 20/30 different colored wire.
I just had to strip the casing covering off to get to them, most were a real thin gauge, but perfect for accessories, and the best part was that they were for free to. :thumbsup:

He passed away 20 years ago we think it was from being exposed to agent orange in Nam, the government said something different. :thumbsdown:
But I still have a bunch of it left, I don't know if they use that today?
You know the wire I am talking about?


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Yup, I know that wire. I've pulled it while helping my brother remodel some places.

I'm sorry you lost your friend. Of course the government said it wasn't agent orange. My dad is a Vietnam vet, and I've met many men who have passed away over the years, many with conditions that were directly attributed to agent orange. And the government refused to have anything to do with them.


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