# Replacing couplings/bogies on Triang R21 coaches



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

Hi there,

I have 4 VERY old Triang R21 coaches with an older style coupling - plus some wheel sets that are broken - that I want to replace. (See attached photo). 
What is the best way to go about this , considering I can't find a way to remove the roof from the coaches without severely damaging them. They haven't been used for about 10 - 15 years. 
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.


----------



## Br 98.75 (Dec 26, 2013)

Those are 00 scale try http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?act=home
This sites sister site they deal with more european trains... the buffers on the end tell me its not from this side of the pond


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

They are very old aren't they? I would say maybe forty plus years old. I don't know why you'd want to take the roofs off to replace the coupling and wheels. What style couplings do you want to replace them with? The wheel sets should just pop out. You really need someone who is familiar with these older types.


----------



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

I was thinking of replacing them with Hornby couplings, as that 's what are on the locos. Otherwise I would have to replace the loco couplers as well. Any suggestions would be most welcome.

I bought these coaches 2nd hand about 20 years ago. When we moved house about 8yrs ago I kept the rolling stock, but not the track  Now I'm starting from scratch again with the help of my grandson). The track is almost completed, just some flex track to join up then add the block connections (At the moment I'm only using DC). I have the block sections worked out - with the help of a modeller in Canada - with insulated joiners, but not sure whether to insulate both rails or just the positive rail. What would be the best. I can supply a copy of the layout with the position of the insulated joiners. I am using Atlas selector switches.



Thanks.


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Are these the type you want to replace them with?


General rule of thumb for wiring is for a double rail break if a power feed facing another.
A diagram of the layout would be useful.


----------



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

Yes they are the couplings.

Ok attached is the layout. The trains will run in an anticlockwise direction. Start at the Orange block (X section), through the Blue (5), Purple (6), back to Orange (X). Then Red (1), through 60 degree crossover to Grey (2), to Green (3), back through crossover to Yellow (4), to Pink (8) then repeat. The Pink section is a stub to a tunnel that doesn't go anywhere. In the 4 corners are lifting points, as it is going to hang from garage ceiling when not in use. The Pink section has a lifting point at its end.

The shaded area at the top represents to bridges. I will attach this layout diagram (created with SCARM), now and some other pics later.

The insulated areas are marked with green lines. I only have an insulated joiner on one rail - the outer - at the moment. I think the polarity reverses for a short distance after passing through the crossover.

Also where would be the best place for power feeds for each block?

Thanks


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

It looks like you've got too many rail breaks. Not being able to annotate on screen I can't show you where they should go but you'll only need about three power feeds by the look of it. I think there's a reverse loop in there somewhere.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

ianb26 said:


> I was thinking of replacing them with Hornby couplings, as that 's what are on the locos. Otherwise I would have to replace the loco couplers as well. Any suggestions would be most welcome.
> 
> I have the block sections worked out - with the help of a modeller in Canada - with insulated joiners, but not sure whether to insulate both rails or just the positive rail. What would be the best. I can supply a copy of the layout with the position of the insulated joiners. I am using Atlas selector switches.
> 
> ...


I prefer using insulated joiners in both rails with Double pole double throw
switches to control power from 2 power packs. However, it seems from memory,
that the Atlas power pack selector switches are Single pole Double throw. If that
is the case, you would use insulated joiners ONLY in the rails fed by said Atlas selectors. The other rails would use metal joiners. It's
known and the 'common rail' system.

Don


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Why are you breaking up the layout with so many blocks?

It is basically one long single track main line running through
a crossing and with a route change or so. It's really not
large enough to warrant 'blocks'.

There is no reverse loop thus you have no
polarity problems. Crossings are 'wired' to
pass the current straight through. The crossing
track is also straight through. The two tracks are
not connected electrically by the crossing.

I would make this layout all one block with no
insulated joiners. (unless you want to 'shut off'
a spur track) Run a buss straight
up the middle. Connect to the two lower tracks and the two
upper tracks. That should be sufficient if your track joints
have good conductivity.

Don


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

DonR said:


> I would make this layout all one block with no
> insulated joiners. (unless you want to 'shut off'
> a spur track) Run a buss straight
> up the middle. Connect to the two lower tracks and the two
> ...


I couldn't get my head around it initially but I see your point. He will definitely need a two rail break between the Orange R8073 and the purple R8072 as both will be fed with power from the heels, but that should be the only one. Power feeds should be where he's indicated with the double "sticks".


----------



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your help.

The reason I want (or wanted) blocks was that I would like to run 2 trains at once on DC. I am making my own control panel with 2 cabs and using Atlas selectors #0215. I have 3 of these that came in a package of track purchased on eBay. BTW those vertical lines on the layout attachment have signal heads attached to them. 

I realise that 9 block sections maybe "overkill"! I am quite happy to use just 1 of the selectors (4) or, at a pinch, maybe 2, giving me, say, from 4 to 6 blocks. What is the consensus of opinion?

I will attach some pics of the layout in its current state (yet to do scenery), so please excuse the mess with the flex track not yet connected as I have to borrow a Dremel to complete it.

The backdrop is a panorama taken by my son from the paddock opposite our house.

If anyone wants to contact me personally you can do it by email, but not sure if I should add my email address to this post, or maybe by private message.

As you can see by the portals there is a mountain tunnel to be completed on the upper level, and a "duck under" on the lower level.

Thanks again.


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Looking good Ian. Why don't you consider going DCC? The simple Bachmann set up would do everything you need. DonR has one, I'm sure he'll concur. You could do away with the blocks and all that wiring and they're really very inexpensive now. It will give you features like constant lighting. Decoder so are twenty dollars per loco, plus you'll have the option of sound.

If you want to give someone your email you can pm them (personal message).


----------



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks for the tip. What would be the approximate cost to go DCC, and what is required? The Aussie dollar is low against the US$ at the moment, about 0.78c to the $US. This time last year it was close to parity!!!!

I have attached photos of my locos (one is in pieces as I am waiting on a replacement bogie, or trucks as you call them in North America). They would require converting to DCC. You can see from the loco on its side that the bogie has rusted pickup wheels, this is the bogie I'm waiting on a replacement for.

From what I've seen on You tube clips, they would require a lot of work to convert. The little tank engine I'm not sure about. As I am on a limited income, it may not be feasible. (Senior citizen!)


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Have a look at this video by Bachmann showing the basics of their EZ system http://youtu.be/JAin_nEMHlY don't know how much they are in Aus but are reasonable even new in the UK. You could go secondhand.
Not really an expert in converting older locos but the main problem is the amps these motors draw. I'm sure someone else could help on that. You will have to hard wire the decoders. Have a look on YouTube for helpful videos.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I sure do agree with Cycleops that you should consider DCC.

If you held to the many blocks you have on your drawing you
would be flipping switches every few seconds.

Of course, you could set all switches to one power pack and
have continuous running without that bother.

But, if you want to run 2 or more trains at the same time
DCC is the way to go. I just checked the price of the
Bachmann EZ DCC controller on line. There are various
prices, the lowest was 106.00 at Sears. I do have 
that very system and can run 4 or 5 locos at the same time
on my single track room size main that basically follows the
walls. I have two nice yards and a number of spurs for
industry. I often have a 2 loco consist pulling a freight or
a passenger as I use my pair of 70 ton switchers picking
up and spotting cars at the same time.

You can often find used DCC controllers for much less.
I bought mine used. Most locos can be upgraded to DCC
with a decoder. I paid 20.00 for a Digitrax decoder I
just installed in an old Mehano loco. It's an easy
one or 2 hour chore.

Don


----------



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

Ok guys, thank you all for your tips, much appreciated.

At the moment I'm leaning toward DCC :stroke: Amazing, your ask one query and you get answers that you think mmmmm what if 
Anyway I will hold off for about 3 - 4 weeks as there is an exhibition I'm planning to go to on the weekend of 6, 7 & 8 June and I will see if I can get a secondhand unit. One other thing - how easy would it be to install decoders on my locos, they being about 40 years old?

The locos are Triang R159A/R250A (the blue and yellow bull nose one in the pics on earlier post to this thread), Triang 357 (the one with its roof off), Hornby R758 (the other blue one). I don't like my chances with the green tank engine as I don't think there would be enough room.

Cycleops, that video was excellent. It was the thing that changed my mind and leaning to DCC. 

I will complete my wiring of my DC controller (with only 1 cab at this stage instead of 2), to test out my tracks and locos.

*Don R:* BTW I've been looking at the Bachmann E-Z digital control on eBay. The power pack for this unit, is the input 110/240v or just 110v? We have 240V in this part of the world. UK is same as us. *IF* I did order one from the US I wouldn't want to "blow up" the unit.  There are units from the UK I could use with an adapter for the pin configurations with no problems. The same for US *IF* the inputs were multi voltage. Does all that make sense? 

It appears no none in Australia is selling them on eBay. 

Back to my original thread. Could Kadee couplers replace the current couplers on the locos? And, of course the carriages.


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm sure you could replace the couplers with Kadees, it just might require a bit of surgery. I imagine you would need the ones with a longer shank to clear the buffers. You'll also need the Kadee height gauge.

The decoders are quite small so I'm sure you'll get one in the tank.


----------



## brownwolf66 (Jul 9, 2013)

Your Triang R159A should have a motor bogie that looks like this image.These are over 40 years old and have a high current consumption apart from having very weak magnets after so many years.You can replace the magnet wit the Neodymium type which will reduce current draw and increase torque.You will need to use a decoder that has a high current capability and the TCS T1 is one choice,the other being one from DCC Concepts.I have nothing to do with these companies just mentioning them as I have used their decoders very successfully in the same model as yours.I have 6 of them.All mine are hard-wired and I have used LED's in the front and rear lights.

The other alternate you have is to replace the bogie by one made by http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/Triang%20Bogie.htm I have not used these but the reports on their performance is good.

[URL="[/URL]


----------



## ianb26 (Dec 29, 2014)

Thanks brownwolf,

I think I have one of those Neodymium type motors, as I replaced a seized motor earlier this year with a replacement from UK.

*Cycelops* & *DonR*

It's looking more than likely I will go DCC, but no decision until after I have been to Model Railway Exhibition in June. 

Also I am reposting the earlier photo of Triang R21 carriage, re replacement bogies/couplers. Can anyone advise how to remove the wheels from this bogie, and how to fix the newer tension lock couplers to these bogies. I have 6 carriages like that.


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Glad to hear you're considering DCC. With regards the bogie conversion, I'm not an expert in old Triang stuff but it looks like the bogies are held on with some sort of blind rivet. My suggestion is that you take head off the rivet by whatever means and replace the bogie wholesale with a more modern Hornby equivalent which would include the coupler.. This would destroy the vintage integrity but would give you a carriage that would run better especially on modern Peco track.

You'd really be better posting this on the OO section although strictly speaking the old Triang is HO.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If Australian train shows are run as are those in the U.S. you will
encounter a number of hobby shops as vendors. It would be
worthwhile asking the owners about prices and offers on DCC
equipment. They may be aware of used gear that is available.
Do the same with any clubs showing operating layouts. They
may know of a member no longer running a layout.

It's important to check the stall current on any older locomotives
before installing a DCC decoder. Most decoders are designed
to handle no more than 1 amp to the motor. To check the
stall current, put a volt/ohmeter set to amps in series with
one wire of the DC track feed. Set the speed control for about
10 or 12 volts. Place the loco on the track and, by hand. apply
downward pressure until the wheels stop moving. At that point
read the amp meter. It is usually desirable to replace any
high current motors, but you can get a decoder with higher
current ratings.

If you are upgrading the old car in your pics, using a
body mount Kadees looks like the only way to go. No
idea how to remove the truck tho the suggestion of
the rivet might well be the answer. Grind it off and
replace with a bolt. Use the rivet as a bushing for
the bolt.

Don


----------



## vikramgoel (Mar 2, 2015)

ianb26 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I have 4 VERY old Triang R21 coaches with an older style coupling - plus some wheel sets that are broken - that I want to replace. (See attached photo).
> What is the best way to go about this , considering I can't find a way to remove the roof from the coaches without severely damaging them. They haven't been used for about 10 - 15 years.
> ...


Hi,

I have used these links to get some ideas on how to replace old OO stock. I have a few and am also looking to do so. It is slow going

http://www.mrol.com.au/Articles/Rolling Stock/FittingKnuckleCouplings.aspx

and

http://www.worldrailfans.info/Articles/Modelling/KadeesForEuroStock.shtml


Regards,

Vik.


----------

