# Advice on a problem with my dealer



## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I’d appreciate it if you experienced O Gauge guys could give me some advice regarding my dealer who shall remain unnamed.

To set the stage for you, I got involved in O Gauge a little over a year ago. Other than some tinplate items, the vast majority of my purchases have come from this same dealer. I’ve ordered enough that they know who I am. In fact, I went to my order history on their website and it comes out to over $4500 I’ve spent with them in the past year. Anyway, this dealer does quite a bit of Internet business and I pre-ordered with them from the Lionel 2018 Vol. 1 catalog right when I got into the hobby.

Fast forward to last night, I received my Lionel pre-order which included three engines. One of the engines is a Lionel Legacy engine. I unwrapped it to find that the shell has about a 3” crack right across the top by the smokestacks. I immediately put the engine back in the box with the intention of returning it.

This morning I contacted the dealer. I explained the situation to the person who answered the phone. Their reaction was rather interesting. They started ranting and raving about Lionel and all the problems they're having with Lionel returns. That was the first time I’d heard that from anyone outside of Internet forums. So that added some validity to the Lionel issues I keep reading about. Anyway, the result of that phone conversation was they said they’d call back. 

An hour or so later, the same person called me back and said, yes they have that engine in stock so send the broken one back and they’ll replace it. This is where it gets sticky. I said, “Great. I’ll wait to receive the return label.” They said they aren’t paying for return shipping. The person went on to tell me about all the problems with Lionel stuff, etc. I responded that a retailer stands behind the products they sell. That’s the purpose of a retailer. Otherwise, why have dealers? Why don’t we all just buy direct from the manufacturer? I said, you’re happy to collect the cash from all the seamless transactions. Now we’re having a problem and it’s time to address it. 

I should add here that I have never returned a single item to this dealer. The person started arguing with me and I told them I wasn’t going to argue. I had stated my position and I want a return label for the broken merchandise you shipped me. I’ve done nothing wrong. The person told me to email the owner. I said, I would do that. This happened while I was at work so now I’m ready to address it.

Do you guys think I’m out of line for asking them to pay for return shipping? It kind of makes me want to call Visa and see what my options are for sticking it up their xxx. I want to be level headed about this though. I appreciate your opinions. Thanks.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Out of line for you to ask them to pay for the return shipping? Absolutely not! Why should you pay for something defective that's not your fault? I've received damaged items before and never once have I had to pay for the return shipping. If they continue to refuse, I'd contact your credit card company and get them involved. I'd love to know which dealer it is because I'd never do business with them if that's how they operate.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

You are correct. I feel for them that they are getting stuck with so much crap from Lionel's quality problems, but that is their problem. They should not make it yours. 

Insist that they do the right thing. If they do not, please post the name of the dealer here, please, so we know to avoid him. Hopefully they do the right thing . . .


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Thanks guys. I want to remain discreet for now. I will definitely keep updating this. I appreciate anyone else weighing in.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I completely agree with the comments already made.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Thanks, Jeff.

Well, I have an update already. The dealer/owner emailed me before I could email him. I don’t feel comfortable simply cutting and pasting the email here. I will paraphrase:

_His employee reported to him that I have a Lionel engine with a cracked shell.

He said I am a “very good customer” so he wanted to reply. Ordinarily he would refer me to Lionel for warranty work but in my case he’s willing to make an exception and exchange the engine for me. If I send the defective engine to them, they will send the replacement as soon as it arrives.

After that he goes on a two paragraph rant about Lionel: it’s costing them money in return shipping, profit loss, his reputation, etc. People are cursing him out and he has no control over any of it, these Lionel factory issues are totally out of his hands, etc. _

So I guess I’m going to email him back but it sounds like his position is he’s doing me a special favor by exchanging this engine.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Whooaaa, evidence has finally surfaced the dealer is hurting from all this BS. 

I feel their pain and your pain.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

superwarp1 said:


> Whooaaa, evidence has finally surfaced the dealer is hurting from all this BS.


Yes, that is interesting isn't it? Like I said, until my phone conversation with them today, 100% of what I had heard concerning Lionel was from us! They sound like they're pulling their hair out.

More to the point though, selfishly, I don't really care. My attitude is if you think Lionel sucks so much, stop carrying Lionel products. I'm rather irked that he's acting like he's doing me a favor by exchanging the engine. And only _after they receive this one!_ I may have to sleep on this before I respond.:smokin:


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## Matt_GNo27 (Feb 7, 2016)

Beachhead2, your position is absolutely correct and the behavior of the owner is poor.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I find myself wondering if Lionel will reimburse the dealer for the return shipping. If they don't, he may go out of business due to the cost of the Lionel returns. With the prices they charge, they really should.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Lehigh74 said:


> I find myself wondering if Lionel will reimburse the dealer for the return shipping. If they don't, he may go out of business due to the cost of the Lionel returns. With the prices they charge, they really should.


Bob, according to the email he sent, no. He said "none of these costs are reimbursed to the dealer by Lionel".


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Matt_GNo27 said:


> Beachhead2, your position is absolutely correct and the behavior of the owner is poor.


Thanks, Matt. I reckon I'm batting 1.000 on this one. I thought for sure someone would tell me I was being unreasonable. If this guy is going to stick to his guns, I guess my only options are:
1) pay to send it back and hopefully get a good one in exchange.
or
2) try to get Visa involved and start a war with the guy.

Again, I'm going to wait until morning regardless.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Hi,

Most dealers will tell you call Lionel or MTH with your problem child and you pay the freight for the return.

Some dealers, very few, will offer a cash refund or exchange if you are not pleased with your purchase. 

I think you are being treated pretty well versus the way most places treat people. IMHO.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Craignor said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most dealers will tell you call Lionel or MTH with your problem child and you pay the freight for the return.
> 
> Some dealers, very few, will offer a cash refund or exchange if you are not pleased with your purchase.


No kidding? Even something like a cracked shell? You think most dealers would say to take it up with Lionel? By the way, I should add, this was NOT a shipping issue. The packaging is pristine.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Craignor said:


> Hi,
> 
> Most dealers will tell you call Lionel or MTH with your problem child and you pay the freight for the return.
> 
> Some dealers, very few, will offer a cash refund or exchange if you are not pleased with your purchase.


That has always been my issue with this hobby. We are sent a defective product and we get the privilege to pay for the return.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

beachhead2 said:


> No kidding? Even something like a cracked shell? You think most dealers would say to take it up with Lionel? By the way, I should add, this was NOT a shipping issue. The packaging is pristine.


Yes, and yes, no kidding.

I am not saying that I like it, but you asked, and that is the way it’s done by most shops today in my experience.

Now, with Visionline, Lionel has a two year waranty, and pays the freight both ways if there is a problem.


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## rgs455 (Sep 19, 2015)

It’s all about customer service. Too bad the vendor is caught in the middle of Lionel’s quality issues but it’s not your fault. However they need to do the right thing. Otherwise, I’m sure their sales will suffer once people know they don’t stand behind the product.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

beachhead2 said:


> Bob, according to the email he sent, no. He said "none of these costs are reimbursed to the dealer by Lionel".


That’s pretty sad. I know that MTH does not pay when they ship products to dealers. The former owner of one of my local hobby shops (the late Charlie Bussinger) complained about that to Mike Wolf and Mike’s reply was that since MTH does not pay shipping, they can keep the prices lower and that results in more customers for the LHS. I don’t know if Lionel pays shipping when they send stuff to dealers, but it seems crazy that Lionel can ship a defective product and the LHS has to eat the return shipping. Charlie also told me that when the dealer makes warranty repairs, MTH only pays for parts (not labor). But if it has to go back to MTH for repairs, MTH pays for shipping (from the dealer to MTH at least).


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## Ottawa_Marc (Jan 22, 2019)

beachhead2 said:


> No kidding? Even something like a cracked shell? You think most dealers would say to take it up with Lionel? By the way, I should add, this was NOT a shipping issue. The packaging is pristine.


Ouch, was thinking it was a possible shipping issue till reading that. Sorry to hear about your engine(s) though.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Craignor said:


> Yes, and yes, no kidding.
> 
> I am not saying that I like it, but you asked, and that is the way it’s done by most shops today in my experience.
> 
> Now, with Visionline, Lionel has a two year waranty, and pays the freight both ways if there is a problem.


Thanks, Craig. It makes a difference.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Jeff T said:


> That has always been my issue with this hobby. We are sent a defective product and we get the privilege to pay for the return.


Man, no kidding. I've learned about this hobby in the last year. Not all of it good.

By the way, SHOUT OUT to Al Rudman at Side Track Hobbies! I purchased a lot of tinplate from Al last year. He also talked to me on the phone a lot about the history of prewar Lionel, what is prototypical, etc. He's just a really nice dude.

I ordered a 400E from him last summer. It was marketed as "brass trim" by MTH (11-1052-1, by the way- buyer beware). In fact, it has zero brass on it. It's all nickel. I was upset about that and told Al. He all but insisted he take it back, he did so, and he paid the shipping. I think I'm realizing that's crazy rare.


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

Why, why the continued fussing over the poor retailer who has to eat shipping on a defective product, or who kicks the can and tells you to send it to Lionel for them to deal with it. 

They are not doing you a favor by taking back a defective item, it showed up broken, they have to take it back — they sent you something broken! Why would any retailer not check the goods they are selling before sending them, they sold you something broken, and now want you to pay to replace it? The idea of a warranty repair on a new in the box engine, really, not me! American Express can deal with that, and the engine can get picked up by the trash man on Tuesday, that anyone is paying to send something brand new in for a “warranty repair” when it is a case of the dealer sending you broken merchandise is nuts. 

If you bought a TV and it came with a broken screen would you be okay with paying return shipping to Samsung or LG to fix it, what is the shipping on a 65” TV, $150 +/-. The retailer deals with it, you get a new one in days and the old one is either sent back or the trash man comes on Tuesday.

Brand new goods which arrive broken is not a warranty repair, it is being sold garbage and there is accountability from either the dealer or your credit card, this is in effect fraud - here is your box of junk, sorry, for only 10% of the purchase price and six months of your time we’ll send it back — did we mention that while is it being fixed the warranty period is running out? So when you get it back, better run it quick before something really breaks and it is off warranty. 

Good luck, but if the dealer will not take it back then call Visa. This isn’t a repair to something used, it is junk in a box.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

You placed an order for a new engine with the full expectation being that it would be pristine.

It was not. 

Contact the credit card company immediately. The Lionel/dealer problem belongs with them, not you. Who cares what the dealer and Lionel policies are? Your policy should be that you get what you paid for.

Oh yes, do not do business with him again.


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## DJones (Oct 19, 2015)

Have you tried contacting Lionel directly? On my last issue with a new engine, Lionel sent me a prepaid label and and returned the item after repair with no costs out of pocket. I do not know if Lionel has replacement shells for your item but it might resolve your issue.

I hope it works out OK for you.

Don


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

CincinnatiWestern said:


> Brand new goods which arrive broken is not a warranty repair, it is being sold garbage and there is accountability from either the dealer or your credit card, this is in effect fraud - here is your box of junk, sorry, for only 10% of the purchase price and six months of your time we’ll send it back — did we mention that while is it being fixed the warranty period is running out? So when you get it back, better run it quick before something really breaks and it is off warranty.
> 
> Good luck, but if the dealer will not take it back then call Visa. This isn’t a repair to something used, it is junk in a box.


Man, you are talking my language. I have vowed to sleep on it though. I will report back tomorrow.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Folks, I'm gonna offer a perspective here that may not be popular, but I've never been one to be shy of sticking my hand in a hornet's nest on forums before... so here goes...

I've sold lots of trains from my personal collection in recent years -- perhaps even to some members right here on MTF. I started selling trains over on the other place back around 2011/2012 when hardly anybody was using the buy/sell forum over there. Now, everybody and their uncle is doing it. But I digress. 

What I'm getting at though is shipping costs have gone up tremendously in the past 7 or 8 years. DRAMATICALLY. So before we get too upset about return-shipping costs, I'd suggest looking at the "big picture". And to do that requires each situation to be taken on its own merit.

For example, I've made it no secret that in the past I've purchased many items from Charles Ro Supply. I still do -- just not to the degree I once did, because we all have our limits on how many trains we "need".  Now Charlie has an interesting shipping policy, where EACH ORDER has a shipping charge based on the total amount ordered AND a modest $8.00 shipping fee for each additional incremental shipment when back orders come in.

Now most recently, I had ordered a few items from Charlie late last year, and one of the incremental shipments of a large order just came in a week or two ago that included 8 Lionel RBM&N heavyweight passenger cars. 40 pounds of stuff that incurred an $8 shipping charge.  AND the price was WAY under what most dealers were selling them for. As some of you may already know, I was extremely disappointed when I encountered "issues" with each of the FOUR 2-packs... paint smudges, coupler issues, and journals popping off trucks.

Now Charlie offered to exchange them for another set of cars, but I was so disappointed with Lionel's latest 18" heavyweights in general, I just wanted a refund. And he did it -- no questions asked, and no re-stocking charge either. I got my full purchase price minus the $8 shipping charge credited back on my charge-card. BUT I did pay return shipping to the tune of $40. 

I wasn't HAPPY to pay for that. But quite frankly, I know Charlie since the 1970's and he's ALWAYS taken care of me. So I was able to live with the fact that I paid $40 to get 8 pieces of junk off my hands. Sure.... I could have demanded that Charlie pick up the return shipping costs, BUT he already took a hit on shipping 40 pounds of stuff to me for only $8 AND nobody else even came close to his price on the cars.

So to preserve a long-standing relationship, I took the hit on return shipping for these items. Now other times, Charlie has sent out a call-tag, as have other dealers SOMETIMES -- not EVERY TIME.

Generally speaking, each situation needs to be handled on its own merit. A few weeks ago, Sidetrack Hobbies shipped me an incorrect item. And as I would expect, they issued a UPS call tag and picked up the costs for return shipping. That's the right thing to do in that case. So I agree... Al and Libby are first-class people at SideTrack Hobbies.

Look... I come down pretty hard on Lionel when they screw up a product, and I think it's a sin that they get away with so much BS between dealers and customers directly. When I deal with Lionel directly, I hold back no punches. They pay shipping BOTH ways if something is under warranty -- especially a DOA that can't be exchanged by a dealer due to insufficient inventory. They make enough crap these days AND make enough money selling that stuff, so I have no sympathy for them paying return-shipping for THEIR problems.

But I do have a bit more sympathy with the dealers depending on the situation. If on a very, VERY rare occasion I need to purchase something close to MSRP and something goes wrong with it or I'm not happy with my purchase, then yes... the dealer is gonna pay return shipping. But if I KNOW the dealer is already offering the best price around by a HUGE margin AND charges either free shipping or next-to-nothing in shipping, then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and pick up the return-shipping tab to help expedite resolving the problem.

It's worked out well for me in the long run. But it may not be for everyone. Each of has to make that judgment call depending on the relationship you have with your dealer. In some cases, you may already have a pre-arranged agreement that the dealer will pay return-shipping no matter what issue arrises. And that's fine too. But not every dealer is able to do that, and I understand.

It's all a delicate balancing act.

David


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> It's all a delicate balancing act.
> 
> David


I appreciate you chiming in, David. I respect your opinion and dig your posts. Thanks!


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Folks, I'm gonna offer a perspective here that may not be popular, but I've never been one to be shy of sticking my hand in a hornet's nest on forums before... so here goes...
> 
> I've sold lots of trains from my personal collection in recent years -- perhaps even to some members right here on MTF. I started selling trains over on the other place back around 2011/2012 when hardly anybody was using the buy/sell forum over there. Now, everybody and their uncle is doing it. But I digress.
> 
> ...


Just imagine is someone at Charles Ro had taken the 15 to 20min to open the 40 pounds worth of cars and noticed all the items you just outlined, both you and they would have saved all that shipping, you wouldn’t have gotten two boxes of broken junk in the first place. 

Ideally the dealers are more than a waypoint between the importer and my door, they should have some skin in the game. If they don’t why bother with them even getting the trains in the first place, they could be drop shipped from Lionel or MTH direct saving the importers and dealers shipping. 

This fun game we have in this hobby of always making excuses for the importers, “we should just be happy they are even willing to make trains,” and the dealers “He is such a great guy and you know he losses money on every sale, but makes up for it on volume,” it is all like some sort of hobbyists mental illness. We would never accept this in any other aspect of our lives as consumers, please help stop this madness. 

Dealers are in business, they turn a profit, if they didn’t they would close up and move on with their lives, they make choices about sending checked or unchecked goods — the QC issues at Lionel aren’t a mystery — I bet goods go out unchecked because the previously mentioned mental illness we all seem have leads to a fair number of broken, damaged, or defective trains just being accepted by the buyer. If Lionel is making junk and you’re a dealer selling it, you’re part of the problem, the trouble does not rest with the buyer, but the importer and retailer. 

If any other retailer sent you broken goods would you pay $40 just to not have to accept them? 

What about goods / services that don’t match the description they were sold under? “Sure you ordered a steak dinner, but here are your pancakes for the same $55.00, I can take them back and get you what you ordered, but there will be a $5.00 fee and you’ll have to cover the dishwashing surcharge of $2.00 for the plate these pancakes are on.” Not unlike the recent paint color issues, and/or inaccurate descriptions, from Lionel — it is junk in a box. 

Sorry folks, but DOA is junk and the person who sold it to you owes you your money back. Not a bill to ship it to them to fix, a restocking fee (like you changed your mind), just a return label and a full refund or replacement.


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## Oldnewchoo (Aug 31, 2018)

I guess I am very ignorant in these things. Is there ever a case where your order through a retailer is actually delivered to you directly from the manufacturer or the shipping company(?) that handles the imports? I have and have not paid shipping (according to my wife) for returns and some have sent return labels on certain orders. So I am on the fence on this out of ignorance or stupidity.


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## Oldnewchoo (Aug 31, 2018)

CincinattiWestern I think you may have cleared it up a bit for me. Good luck on whatever your decision is beachhead2.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Cincy, with all due respects, you've missed my point completely, because you're hung up on your opinion... which, by the way, you are entitled to have. Your approach on this is black and white. Mine is a bit more grey, and I'm not gonna apologize to anyone about it. There IS no right or wrong answer here.

And for the record, nobody is enabling anything here. I indicated the hard line I take with Lionel (or any other importer) directly. I CHOOSE to have a slightly different take when dealing with a dealer who's treated me more than fairly for over 4 decades. Charlie has allowed me to occasionally cancel a pre-order before he shipped it, and he never even once complained. In this case, he offered to replace the entire order, but I CHOSE to get a refund. I'm sure Charlie would have rather sent me another set of cars, and not deal with the refund transaction. But he processed the refund anyway, and it was a win-win all around. 

Sometimes we need to pull the camera lens back and look at the "big picture". That was my whole point. But if you want to go through life looking at every transaction with a zoom lens on its maximum setting, then by all means go for it. It's your prerogative. I'm simply offering the OP an alternative viewpoint -- not telling him what to do... just to look at things from a "big picture" perspective.

David


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## yamawho (Apr 20, 2016)

I'm not sure I would appreciate receiving a new item that was opened ... I'm sure most would think that got a used one or a return.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

yamawho said:


> I'm not sure I would appreciate receiving a new item that was opened ... I'm sure most would think that got a used one or a return.


I don't understand why this isn't the protocol - somewhere - once the product arrives stateside.

Its not hard shrink wrap a box - or just a bag marked "Inspected by LIONEL USA" - with an official looking tell-tale seal.

I tend to think most of this kind of damage happens in the big inter-modal shipping containers - and not on the domestic side.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2019)

I am happy that you brought this subject to light. It is indeed a subject that invites the perspective of our members. 

Here's my take. You are not a hit or miss customer and your business over the time you have had a relationship with this dealer should mean a lot to them, a lot more than the cost to return the damaged goods. By their actions, they have clearly demonstrated that your potential future business means little to them. So, your first move is to find another dealer. Call around, listen to our members, and find one of the many good ones in our hobby. Have an understanding with the new dealer up front (like Eliot) that all orders will be fully checked out before they are shipped to you. 

Forget the dealer at this point other than notifying him you are done with him. It is not worth the effort moving forward with them. Contact Lionel and let them handle it.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Roving Sign said:


> I don't understand why this isn't the protocol - somewhere - once the product arrives stateside.
> 
> Its not hard shrink wrap a box - or just a bag marked "Inspected by LIONEL USA" - with an official looking tell-tale seal.
> 
> I tend to think most of this kind of damage happens in the big inter-modal shipping containers - and not on the domestic side.


because there are way to many products to open.


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## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

Tough situation for sure. I would not pay return shipping on something that came messed up on arrival, period. That being said, if it is just the cracked shell (test the bajeesus out of it) I would accept just being sent a new shell from lionel (assuming no cost was involved). I'd even try for the dealer to coordinate and get the shell to you with minimal effort on your part. Might be faster/less work and something that would make all parties happy (not that you owe anybody anything). Sure it's not ideal but at least you could run the train while you wait. If you're not one to tinker though I think you only have one option to send it back. 

Might be a good idea to give consumers the option of being inspected before shipping. This way if people are worried about things being used/returned they can roll the dice and hit no.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

One quick comment, I hope, regarding the use of a Credit Card. I buy everything, train purchases even ebay on my credit card.

Several years I ago I bought a new engine, brand doesn't matter. It didn't run right. I contacted the dealer the same day it arrived, no response. I contacted the mfr and it was returned for repair with me paying the freight.

Upon it's return to me it was still not correct. Contacted the mfr again and was told their paperwork showed the issue was resolved.

OK, now I'm upset. I called the CC co, explained the issue, freight cost, follow up with mfr and they halted payment to the dealer. 

I had to fill out a one page document and they were going to do an investigation. Several months later I recieved a letter stating the charge was permanently removed from my account.

While I was happy with the resolution, I did think about dealer who was stuck in the middle. Granted they were no help to me whatsoever, my first order with them. But from what I can tell they were certainly left holding the proverbial bag on this one and it was empty, $.

From what I've read in this thread it appears Lionel is certainly putting their dealers in a precarious position with their recent issues. The entire situation is awkward and does not appear to be getting better.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Jeff T said:


> ...
> 
> While I was happy with the resolution, I did think about dealer who was stuck in the middle. Granted they were no help to me whatsoever, my first order with them. But from what I can tell they were certainly left holding the proverbial bag on this one and it was empty, $.
> 
> From what I've read in this thread it appears Lionel is certainly putting their dealers in a precarious position with their recent issues. ...


We've heard from many members that are now wary of Lionel product (e.g., loss of product confidence, no pre-orders, etc.). And Beachhead's original post(s) mentioned the dealer's frustration with these same issues (e.g., loss of profit). I'm sure many other dealers are in he same position.

To what extent will Lionel's orders dry up? Are the other mfg.'s watching? Can they / will they capitalize on this discontinuity?

It should be an interesting year ahead ...


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> ....
> From what I've read in this thread it appears Lionel is certainly putting their dealers in a precarious position with their recent issues. The entire situation is awkward and does not appear to be getting better.


What Lionel and their foreign factories have done here has HUGE ramifications for dealers. For example, based on my 2018 experiences, I'm seriously considering only purchasing high-end items locally where I can examine items in the store before bringing them home. That's gotta be a big hit to mail-order and online dealers, because it's changing their customer's buying behavior. It's bad enough that many of us are tempering our buying because we now have a healthy roster of trains. Add to that a drop in sales because good buyers are buying locally, and large online dealers get hit with a double-whammy. OTOH, smaller LHS's might make out a bit better with the bump in sales from local peeps. But the smaller shops don't always stock too many items. I'm just lucky I'm relatively local to a rather large train store that sells nationally.

Secondly, speaking of that large train dealer... I know as a matter of fact, that they encountered problems with close to 100 Lionel 21" passenger cars early in 2018... that was the batch that included the UP Excursion cars among others. The quality was so poor, that the same shop took steps to examine EVERY car going out the door before shipping to distant customers. In some cases that meant re-packaging 4-packs and 2-packs to ensure customers received "good sets". That's gotta be a TREMENDOUS productivity drain on shops -- big and small.

David


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I am happy that you brought this subject to light. It is indeed a subject that invites the perspective of our members.


Yeah, this has been interesting and I appreciate everyone opining here. Well, I did indeed "sleep on it". Then, this morning I had to go to the DMV to renew the plates on wife's and my cars. So that was fun! But it gave me some time to think about it. I was still vacillating between my natural reaction (which is to get belligerent) and something more sedate (like what David suggested). After all, we're probably talking about $25.

However, it occurred to me that I never actually spoke to the owner, so I still needed to explain exactly what I wanted. I tried to make it as succinct as possible (no explanations of what a retailer's responsibilities are, what a great guy I am, etc.). Here it is:

_Thanks for reaching out to me and offering to exchange this broken item. I appreciate that there are difficulties with your suppliers and some unruly customers. I also appreciate that you recognize I am not one of them. 

I want ______________ to pay for the return shipping. I have done nothing wrong. I have never before asked for a return or exchange from ______________. I was shipped a broken a item. 

My only question is will I be forced to pay to return this broken item that ______________ sent me? Thanks for your time._


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I received a response from the dealer/owner.

Again, I don't feel comfortable cutting and pasting someone's email here verbatim. So I will paraphrase the response:

_I realize you haven't done anything wrong but neither have we, this is all on Lionel poor QC and it would be unfeasible for us to check every item for defects prior to shipment.

He then goes on a rant about Lionel and how much money they're losing shipping stuff back and forth.

He ends with: *That being said I will ship the replacement along with a pre paid return label. Please recognize I'm doing this because of your status as a good repeat customer.*_


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I would thank him this one last time and go elsewhere for all future purchases. 

A few years back a was very vocal about Nassau Hobby shipping me something and charging me for shipping. Forget the details but I complained on the other forum and got them to change their shipping policy. Oh I know now, it was charging me shipping on pre-orders over free shipping for in stock items or vis versa


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Cincy, with all due respects, you've missed my point completely, because you're hung up on your opinion... which, by the way, you are entitled to have. Your approach on this is black and white. Mine is a bit more grey, and I'm not gonna apologize to anyone about it. There IS no right or wrong answer here.
> 
> And for the record, nobody is enabling anything here. I indicated the hard line I take with Lionel (or any other importer) directly. I CHOOSE to have a slightly different take when dealing with a dealer who's treated me more than fairly for over 4 decades. Charlie has allowed me to occasionally cancel a pre-order before he shipped it, and he never even once complained. In this case, he offered to replace the entire order, but I CHOSE to get a refund. I'm sure Charlie would have rather sent me another set of cars, and not deal with the refund transaction. But he processed the refund anyway, and it was a win-win all around.
> 
> ...


David,

I did not miss your point, I understood it to be exactly as you've laid it out again to be, that in your case you're willing to see things in shades of grey, and to take a long term view -- Charlie has been good to you in your view and thus you're willing to have a higher degree of tolerance with him.

I am glad that you've arrived a place where you're happy with your train purchases.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

superwarp1 said:


> I would thank him this one last time and go elsewhere for all future purchases.


Gary, I most certainly did promptly thank him. I will wait until the whole problem is 100% resolved before I decide what to do after that. I still have my dukes up a little bit.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Non of this would be an issue if Lionel would get a handle on this. I would email Lionel let them know they have ANOTHER defective product


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

superwarp1 said:


> Non of this would be an issue if Lionel would get a handle on this. I would email Lionel let them know they have ANOTHER defective product


I will do so. And I will update this thread when it’s all resolved. Now that I appear to be working towards a resolution, I'll say here what I wanted to say to this dealer. 

This is what I believe a retailer does:

_-Retailers buy products from manufacturers at wholesale prices that are not available to consumers.

-Retailers then sell those products on to consumers at a profit with the understanding that they stand behind the product._

This dealer (and from the sound of it, many dealers) want this to be a one way street. They get to peddle their wares with impunity. If there’s a problem, take it up with Lionel. That’s insane to me.

Speaking more globally, and totally editorializing here, these dealers aren’t just in competition with other LHS’s or Lionel dealers. They are in competition with the local grocery store, Target, Amazon, Walmart, L.L. Bean, Lowe’s, whoever. 

The American consumer is conditioned by their *entire retail experience* to expect a certain level of customer service and backing the products. You can thrash against that, you can call it unfair, you can blame Lionel, but eventually you better take responsibility. If you don’t back Lionel products, then don’t CARRY Lionel products.

Thanks guys. I'll hopefully report back soon with a resolution.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Well, I think this saga is over so I want to add the conclusion. What I thought was a problem with the dealer turned out to be more of Lionel problem. Shocking, I know!

The dealer sent me a replacement engine along with a return FedEx label. When I received the engine, I put it on the track and it was defective.  

It was like a sick joke. I was certain that the dealer was going to have a heart attack when I told him. However, to his credit when I told him that the new engine wouldn't operate correctly, he was calm. He suggested that I try out the first engine (with the cracked shell). If that one ran okay, then swap the shells. I thought that was reasonable. Luckily, that turned out to be the case. The engine with the cracked shell ran okay. I swapped the shells and sent him an inoperable engine with a cracked shell. 

Unbelievable. I had another Legacy engine on this order that I thought was defective but GRJ set me straight (crappy Lionel traction tires rubbing the truck frames). This was my first ever preorder with Lionel and my first Legacy engines since starting in this hobby. I thought this was going to be a slam dunk. It was just a little diesel switcher! 

Now, I'm really sweating. I have a USRA Light Mountain steam engine and heavyweight passenger cars still on preorder (from a different dealer). Needless to say, I am not brimming with confidence about that transaction. And I definitely *have not and will not* preorder from Lionel's new catalog.

Thanks everyone for hearing me out a few weeks ago.:thumbsup:


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

as a mogul owner I feel your pain. I just pre-ordered the new J3 Hudson, I had/have big time reservations due to mine and everyone’s experiences of late with Lionel products. 

I can only assume they are addressing it, how can they not. Really wish they would admit their mistakes with some kind of press release


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Anytime there is a Lionel b****fest on the web, someone will chime in along the lines of "I've never had a problem. I think this is just a small percentage of people complaining", etc.

I learned one thing during this process: that theory is the leavings of a large farm animal! This is not half a dozen forum cranks blowing things out of proportion.

From talking to three different employees at this dealer: Lionel is HUGE problem for them right now.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

What do you guys feel about a dealer charging a restocking fee for a returned item(s)? I know of someone who refused delivery of a package of the Heavyweight Passenger cars from Lionel because of hearing about all the problems with them on this forum and the other forum. Since he did not accept the package, the shipping company returned the package to the dealer. He Preordered these cars from the dealer. The dealer refunded his money but then charged him a 15% restocking fee which for those cars is about $100. The dealers website mentions there is a 15% restocking fee for returned merchandise. I am curious to know what you guys think about restocking fees especially in this situation. I am not this person and I am not mentioning the name of the dealer because it is a well known dealer. This person has reached out to dealer to complain about the fee but the dealer won't return his phone calls so now he is disputing it with his credit card company. To me $100 is fairly steep fee but I am sure many dealers do have restocking fee policy for returned merchandise. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, he did pre-order then, so he had some sort of obligation. I'm happy that I don't have that kind of issue with dealers I buy from, but I'm not sure I'd have room to complain if it's a published policy. Since he didn't verify there was any issue with the cars, it appears it was handled as a return for no reason. If he had opened them and found damage and then returned them, I'd have a problem with the restocking fee.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, he did pre-order then, so he had some sort of obligation. I'm happy that I don't have that kind of issue with dealers I buy from, but I'm not sure I'd have room to complain if it's a published policy. Since he didn't verify there was any issue with the cars, it appears it was handled as a return for no reason. If he had opened them and found damage and then returned them, I'd have a problem with the restocking fee.


I agree with GRJ


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

It’s always smart to look at the dealers return policy before pushing “enter”.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

kstrains said:


> What do you guys feel about a dealer charging a restocking fee for a returned item(s)?


If it's stated up front, it doesn't offend me. My guess is dealers do that in an effort to protect themselves from folks with buyer's remorse who order things and return them willy-nilly.

But it does offend my sense of fair play if there aren't exceptions to be made in the case of defective products. I'm not speaking of that specific instance that you point out. I'm not sure where I fall on that. I think I'd at least open the box. If the 15% is stated up front and you know you're in for a big fight anyway, why not try to avoid it? Roll the dice and open the box. Otherwise, it just looks like buyer's remorse.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2019)

I guess that we have been quite fortunate having only vey minor issues with our purchases. We don't order online, prefer to call and speak to someone. Have had wonderful conversations. The two issues we had were resolved right away. A broken plow, replacement sent the next day and a grenade kinetic coupler replaced immediately. Americas Best Trains test every engine before it is shipped. That is there policy. Nicholas Smith, SideTrack Hobbies, Stock Yard Express, Gryzboski's Trains, Charles Ro and Pats Trains have all checked locos and rolling stock for us when asked. Living in Canada and dealing with wild shipping charges they are all completely understanding when asked to do this. Makes things easier for both parties. I cannot say enough good things about the above listed dealers and their employees. That is why we are making a point of visiting each and every one of them no matter where they are located. They have helped to make our deep dive into this hobby very enjoyable.

Best Regards,

Gary.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Restocking fees are a touchy point with me. Thankfully, I've never been hit with them, but I think the onus is always on the buyer to at least understand the terms of the sale.

For example... at Nicholas Smith Trains, they typically have a "no refunds" policy. So once the payment leaves your hands, you've waived goodbye to your $$$$. Now if you "change your mind", they'll gladly give you store credit. And chances are quite good that there's something else in the store that will find its way onto your roster and make you feel good.  But their policy is well-stated and also printed on every sales receipt.

Charlie Ro, who I've done business with regularly since the 1970's, has a very workable policy... suggesting that returns "are subject to" a 15% restocking fee and applicable freight charges if the returned merchandise isn't exchanged for products of equal value. But quite honestly, they've never held me to that policy. Last year I returned two major purchases in which I was very disappointed: Lionel's Santa Fe F3 units didn't meet my expectations with its rather lack-luster plated appearance, and Lionel's RBM&N 18" heavyweights were a disaster. In both cases, I spoke with Charlie and he understood completely and said to just return them no problem. Now in the case of the F3's, I wound up purchasing a set of Great Northern F3's anyway, so that was pretty much a wash. But the passenger cars were treated more as a straight return, and Charlie credited my charge card for the full purchase minus their initial shipping charge (which was next to nothing). However MY return shipping charge of $40 was on me. But at least they didn't hit me with a 15% restocking fee, when I was already disappointed with the products.

I think that's the nice part of building a relationship with a dealer on a regular basis. When things go wrong, they're there to help -- not stick it to you. In the case with Charles Ro, I also had a number of items still on back-order. So a good dealer isn't about to jeopardize future sales over a "good cause" return. Or so I'd hope.

I do realize dealers in general have these restocking fees -- most are 15%. And it's their form of protection when folks flat-out change their mind -- especially if they find something a few bucks cheaper somewhere else. Trust me when I say I've sold enough trains on the secondary market that some folks will cry endlessly if they find the same item for $5 cheaper at another vendor's table.  It's just human nature I guess, and it comes with the territory. So I completely understand why dealers have strict "no return" policies or hefty restocking fees.

At the end of the day, it's all about the big picture again. If you jump around with different dealers and never do any significant repeat-business with any one or two dealers, then you're gonna be treated "by the book". However, if you develop a healthy dealer relationship over the years, that's more than likely gonna pay itself back in spades when product "issues" arise from time to time. 

David


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> At the end of the day, it's all about the big picture again. If you jump around with different dealers and never do any significant repeat-business with any one or two dealers, then you're gonna be treated "by the book".
> 
> David


David, I think you summed it up well. It is really about the relationship with the dealer. When they look you up on their computer system, they more than likely see how much you have ordered from them in the past. They might be less likely break their own policies if you have not done a consistent business with them. 

I know that this guy has ordered from this dealer in the past but not very large orders. He has talked to them on the phone too in placing previous pre-orders, but they probably don’t remember him out of the hundred’s of the train customers…so a lack of relationship probably plays into this. However, in my opinion it does not excuse the dealer for not calling him back which is one of the problems of this situation. 

What Craig said is right on too…



Craignor said:


> It’s always smart to look at the dealers return policy before pushing “enter”.


I happen to look up some of the larger and well known dealers this afternoon and their return policies…Charles Ro, Train World, Nassau Hobbies, Nicholas Smith Trains and few others. Most of the dealers state in their return policy that they have 15% restocking fee for “All returns" which if you returning $1000 of merchandise that is a large fee. I was not aware that most do charge a restocking fee. However, I understand that restocking fee is to discourage from someone from just changing their mind. Most of the dealers stated in their policy that they require you to get a RMA from them too before returning any merchandise so they know the reason for the return which is more than likely why the dealer has charged him a restocking fee.


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## JKP (Jan 19, 2019)

waitin' 4 the train said:


> I guess that we have been quite fortunate having only vey minor issues with our purchases. We don't order online, prefer to call and speak to someone. Have had wonderful conversations. The two issues we had were resolved right away. A broken plow, replacement sent the next day and a grenade kinetic coupler replaced immediately. Americas Best Trains test every engine before it is shipped. That is there policy. Nicholas Smith, SideTrack Hobbies, Stock Yard Express, Gryzboski's Trains, Charles Ro and Pats Trains have all checked locos and rolling stock for us when asked. Living in Canada and dealing with wild shipping charges they are all completely understanding when asked to do this. Makes things easier for both parties. I cannot say enough good things about the above listed dealers and their employees. That is why we are making a point of visiting each and every one of them no matter where they are located. They have helped to make our deep dive into this hobby very enjoyable.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Gary.


Gryzboski's Trains and Model Train Stuff have both taken care of issues after purchase, very happy with both and I have visited both of them at least once, I think Model Train Stuff twice. I've also visited Stock Yard Express when I was traveling. They had a rolling stock I wanted, they keep their mth online inventory updated- I didnt call before I stopped to confirm it was in stock.
And yes, Craignor has good advice before you hit 'enter'


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Lionel has been my favorite since I got my first set in 1946 and I really don't like what I am reading. I see no reason for people on this forum to make up this stuff.BUT if Lionel continues with this kind of attitude they will lose dealers as well as customers. And what could be a first in our hobby, a class action law suit. I would not be a participant because I have none of the products that are giving problems.There must be somebody in charge at Lionel that wants to close the company. I would not want that to happen but these problems can't continue. It seems that most problems have occurred with upper level products. If they allow that soom it will move to entry level stuff and then those that can make the hobby grow will not buy Lionel and probably not any train models and our part of the hobby will be gone. Don't think that takeover by a different company with a different name will make any difference. My limited experiences selling at train shows is Lionel sells in general because the name is recognized. MTH, Atlas, Williams or any other is unknown.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> The Ame


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