# I Hear That $2000 Legacy AC-9 Calling Me, But . . .



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Just curious what others think. 

The siren sound of another wonderful big loco is calling me. I suppose I will eventually succumb, but I intend to fight it a while first, at least, and maybe draw the line here. 

The 2017 Lionel Signature Catalog was, frankly, less overwhelming that previous ones, at least for me. This was a relief. I'd like to slow down on my RR spending. The LC+ SD60M is something I will have to explore . . . but that was pretty much it for the whole catalog.

Except for that gorgeous, big, really handsome, multi-multi-wheeled, beautiful and monstrous Southern Pacific AC-9. It is something I really ought to have alongside all my other big bad big boys. But the price!!! Two grand for a Legacy loco? I realize I could buy it at a discount - I always do. But still . . . And I don't see or read any significant difference between it and a Vision loco. So I'm not quibbling with the quality. It's purely the price.

What I am thinking is that the AC-9 costs three times as much as the Legacy SD90MAC, a loco I think is fantastic. . I would really like to have one AC-9. But two grand is, well, a bit much I think . . . there are so many good $600 locos to buy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I paid $1900 for the VL-BB, but it did sport a lot of cool features. The prices seem to have accelerated lately on the high-end stuff.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

I have red that some dealers are below $ 1,600 for this engine, Lee. Still big bucks, but a little easier than the MLP. 

How about the Daylight version, is is a beauty.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

I decided to pass on this, since I'm more than happy with the Daylight Cab-Forward from a couple of years ago. Had I not sprung for that then, the AC-9 might be more of a temptation this time around. But I'm not feeling it right now, and funds are ear-marked for one heck of a layout-building project this year.

As Brian indicated, check around for good deals. *But you'll probably need to call the dealers now for their best pricing... as the suits at Lionel have cracked down with 10% MAP guidelines now across the premium product line -- much like they did with the VL GG1.* So essentially dealer pre-order price lists and websites have been updated to reflect MAP pricing. Bottom line, all the dealers now "advertise" the same prices online. Keyword being "advertise". 

Quite honestly... I'd tell Lionel management what they could do with their MAP pricing if I were a dealer. Funny how Lionel execs think they can offload all the risk of holding "extra" inventory to dealer/distributors now, yet still think the dealers are gonna allow Lionel to tell them how to run their business too. Uh.... I don't think so.

These new guys heading up Lionel really don't have a clue how close they are to folks just being content with their existing roster of trains, and saying "forgettaboudit" to the newly catalog'd stuff at inflated prices. 

David


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

David, that is as well said as anyone could have put it. You summed up my thinking 100%.

And yes, the Daylight Cab Forward is the real winner here.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I have red that some dealers are below $ 1,600 for this engine, Lee. Still big bucks, but a little easier than the MLP.
> 
> How about the Daylight version, is is a beauty.


I can't find one. Damn MAP pricing I guess. Still thinking about it. The AC-9 was an incredible loco.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Definitely a good looking engine. $2,000 even $1,600 for me is from here to the moon. Ah well, 072 curves are too big for my layout.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

John could get it for you with his employee discount!
http://henningstrains.com/2017HTLionelPreorderV1b.pdf


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

Lee, if you buy a AC-9 the first TMCC Version it looks good and sounds good.
Here is the link to my video:


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Lee, Steve at Mr Muffins said to call and make an offer about a year ago. Lionel may tell the dealers what they have to advertise as the price but I don't think they can dictate that a lower price cannot be negotiated on an individual sale.

This engine is a no-brainer. It is one that you absolutely have to have. You have an empty shelf space just waiting.

Good luck.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I did not see this thread until after I'd posted on another one (demise of high end/Legacy) some thoughts about recent price increases.

Not going to repeat myself. Nor am I going to try calling around dealers I know to see if I can get the AC-9 at the pre-order price they advertised right after the Signature catalog came out - although I'm almost tempted to do it just to get the answers. Now "forgetaboudit" is indeed the operative word; I've no interest in helping prop up an MLP policy that appears adverse to loyal customers in circumstances where there's no hint of anything being done to address QC issues.

There's a nasty hint of a downward spiral here of the kind David mentions. Anyway I already have enough Lionel pre-orders in the pipeline to bridge the gap until they come up with something I feel more willing to purchase.


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## railfancwb (Jan 14, 2017)

Bill Webb said:


> Lee, Steve at Mr Muffins said to call and make an offer about a year ago. Lionel may tell the dealers what they have to advertise as the price but I don't think they can dictate that a lower price cannot be negotiated on an individual sale.
> 
> This engine is a no-brainer. It is one that you absolutely have to have. You have an empty shelf space just waiting.
> 
> Good luck.




For awhile in the post WWII and Korean War era manufacturers fixed prices with government approval - including Lionel. That era ended, along with department store toy departments and train layouts during Christmas season. Are we better off now, with limited runs and limited repair parts for very pricy items?


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Steve is a good guy. I'm going to Mr. Muffins Trains sometime this summer it's about a three hour drive.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

If it's going to be a shelf queen I say no. If your going to run it then buy it.


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## PDDMI (Oct 25, 2015)

Denny...I plan on getting down there later this summer...probably 2 1/2 hours for me, but wanted to wait and let them get some of their new layout up and running first. Just ordered the new LC+ Pere Marquette Berkshire and Caboose through Steve...if he had it in stock, I'd be there tomorrow morning...and early!!! 
Thought I would try and include the National New York Central Museum in Elkhart on the same trip...looks like it might be an interesting stop too?


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Paul, for me it's a 20 minute drive on 94 to 31 by Benton Harbor and about 40 minute drive to the state line. Two hours to Atlanta, IN. Some of the club members might go too. Steve said he would open on Sunday if we came as a club.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

IF you want the Daylight version it would be worth pre-ordering. Those will sell out quickly, if history proves correct again...

Personally, my day of purchasing $2K die-cast locomotives are over. I can buy brass cheaper...


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I broke down after my retailer offered me $1600 plus shipping when I called. As stated above they can advertise only the MAP price, but . . . 

So I ordered the plain-jane #3800 - no Daylight and no big silver disc wheels for me - and two UP LC+ SD60m locos. - in for a dime, in for a dollar. 

I keep telling myself that since I gave up expensive Italian sports cars and really shouldn't feel bad about what I spend on hobbies but still - wow!


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

If I ever spent $1600 on a "toy" locomotive the corner florist would be mighty happy.
Now, that being said, I know you'll enjoy it to the max and it will look terrific on your fabulous layout.
Rest assured, my wife will NOT hear about guys spending that kind of money on "toy" trains.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee, I could tell from the first post that you would be sucked in, it was just a matter of time!


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Well, I broke down after my retailer offered me $1600 plus shipping when I called. As stated above they can advertise only the MAP price, but . . .
> 
> So I ordered the plain-jane #3800 - no Daylight and no big silver disc wheels for me - and two UP LC+ SD60m locos. - in for a dime, in for a dollar.


Were you told that the Daylight version has silver disc wheels??? I know that's what the catalog appears to show for it (and the other non-3800 version) but I did not believe the illustration - based on past form.



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Lee, I could tell from the first post that you would be sucked in, it was just a matter of time!


I thought that too but thought it better not to say. Anyway, more power to the Willis collection!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Lee Willis said:


> Well, I broke down after my retailer offered me $1600 plus shipping when I called. As stated above they can advertise only the MAP price, but . . .
> 
> So I ordered the plain-jane #3800 - no Daylight and no big silver disc wheels for me - and two UP LC+ SD60m locos. - in for a dime, in for a dollar.
> 
> I keep telling myself that since I gave up expensive Italian sports cars and really shouldn't feel bad about what I spend on hobbies but still - wow!


Lee,
How a man spends his hard earned money is only his business, certainly not mine, and there was NO intention of being snarky with my comment. hwell:
We all have a "weakness" when it comes to parting with our greenbacks, myself included, but I'm pretty sure I would only survive such a caper after a lengthy stay in ICU. 
Bob


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Were you told that the Daylight version has silver disc wheels??? I know that's what the catalog appears to show for it (and the other non-3800 version) but I did not believe the illustration - based on past form.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that too but thought it better not to say. Anyway, more power to the Willis collection!:smilie_daumenpos:


I don't want the Daylight, just a normal black loco, and whether the catalog and on-light details are correct or not, I did not want 3805 or whatever the # was that was shown with the silver disc or Scullen wheels or whatever they are called. They are an interesting look, but no for me . .


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I try to be snarky at least twice a day, but only at stupid drivers.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

In case it matters to anybody, one big Lionel dealer has posted what appears to be corrected images of the proposed Daylight AC-9 with no hint of the silver/gray wheels:

















Lionel's own online image is unchanged but I take it as read that it's another catalog illustration mistake. hwell:

(The dealer in question has not corrected the online description that Lionel did change, and very quickly, which included reference to inability to lash up this engine with other command control models owing to a gearing difference. I understand that those words were intended only to refer to Legacy Shays.)


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2017)

Still a very handsome engine, Andy, but as we both know, I have a weakness for the Daylight fantasy engines.

The fact that something like this is offered is a real plus for the O-Gauge community.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Still a very handsome engine, Andy, but as we both know, I have a weakness for the Daylight fantasy engines.
> 
> The fact that something like this is offered is a real plus for the O-Gauge community.


Well, me too (weakness) and glancing just now at my Daylight cab forward, I think that the actual paint scheme executed by Lionel is far superior to any Photoshopped catalog illustration:









Purists would no doubt gripe at the colors and how they differ between my Daylight locos but I like them all. So much so that I lash up the AC-12 and the Alco A-B-A set (shock, horror).


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2017)

Andy, you are again 100% correct.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> In case it matters to anybody, one big Lionel dealer has posted what appears to be corrected images of the proposed Daylight AC-9 with no hint of the silver/gray wheels:
> 
> View attachment 275882
> 
> ...


These latest photos are better than the catalog "illustrations". But they beg the question as to the real accuracy of the colors to be used in the final production models. And this is where Lionel is missing the boat with respect to its BTO products. 

TYPICALLY, Lionel's SP "Daylight" colors are often in the bright red/orange family. That's what we've seen most recently with the GS-4 and the Cab-Forward from a few years ago.

These images, however, show a more subdued color scheme... almost more on the dull orange / amber side. More like what's more commonly found on K-Line Daylight locomotives.

My gut instinct tells me that Lionel's AC-9 Daylight will be produced with the brighter red/orange paint scheme used on the GS-4 and Cab-Forward. However, they'll likely keep enthusiasts guessing until product delivery. And sadly, if you ask them now, they probably won't know what's really gonna be produced until they see a pre-production sample from their Chinese factory. 

David


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

David,

I would suggest that no one goes by the catalog colors still less those in Trainworld's rendition. The latter was undoubtedly an attempt to produce something that was more accurate than the Lionel catalog image that somehow got through a sign-off process. Don't ask me how it did.

As you will know, SP colors as represented on 3rail models are almost always a (nasty) subject of debate. My point is that Lionel got as close as you would expect in a fantasy scheme. In the picture in my last post, the top engine is the last 3rd Rail version of the GS-4. Even absolute fanatics about color accuracy accept that it is close to the real thing. The Lionel paint scheme is not as good but boy, it sure does look good to me. 

Andy


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Two comments about the colors and the catalog illustrations:

1) First, I expect the Daylight colors to be bright and the loco to look spectacular. I'm not going with the Daylight version because once I had it, it would mean I had to buy a whole set of passenger cars to go with it and then I would want some Daylight diesels and other locos . . . I just don't have room/budget to get into another dazzling pretty passenger train. No room on the shelves for it, either. ATSF Warbonnet and UP will be the only two I get into. 

2) I've noticed for the last few years that whoever does Lionel's graphics and text for catalogs, etc., knows or cares next to nothing about toy trains. They are good graphics designers, always arranging the pages and pictures well, but they routinely make mistakes (i.e., "GG1 Steam Locomotive" on the Vision box) in details on product descriptions and pictures. This is only a tiny data point that indicates Lionel has "lost it" in some sense. Only one, and tiny, as I say, but worrisome nonetheless.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Two comments about the colors and the catalog illustrations:
> 
> 1) First, I expect the Daylight colors to be bright and the loco to look spectacular. I'm not going with the Daylight version because once I had it, it would mean I had to buy a whole set of passenger cars to go with it and then I would want some Daylight diesels and other locos . . . I just don't have room/budget to get into another dazzling pretty passenger train. No room on the shelves for it, either. ATSF Warbonnet and UP will be the only two I get into.
> 
> 2) I've noticed for the last few years that whoever does Lionel's graphics and text for catalogs, etc., knows or cares next to nothing about toy trains. They are good graphics designers, always arranging the pages and pictures well, but they routinely make mistakes (i.e., "GG1 Steam Locomotive" on the Vision box) in details on product descriptions and pictures. This is only a tiny data point that indicates Lionel has "lost it" in some sense. Only one, and tiny, as I say, but worrisome nonetheless.


1) I certainly understand your point as I have been down that road with SP Daylight models!

2) The catalog illustrator(s) may not know much about model trains but even less about the prototypes. There are a lot of illustrations in each catalog but still at least on leading or flagship products like the AC-9 you'd expect someone in Lionel to catch the mistakes. It's part of a more worrying trend about QC generally, which in my case puts me off another purchase.

Incidentally, in the Notch 6 broadcast on MR's new job he refers to impossible deadlines and language barrier emails, presumably with Chinese manufacturers. I can understand how things get lost in translation but who signs off on the final design and sample?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Lee, 
I kind of thought it would get the better of you! HAHA!

Enjoy!

Andy,
I fully agree with your statement, _"It's part of a more worrying trend about QC generally, which in my case puts me off another purchase"._

The latest FEF comes to mind...

"Vision Steam Locomotive" on the GG1 box...enough said. The top of their line and a product is sent to customers with an inaccurate box label. A simple correction not performed.

I don't like what I've saw the last few years with catalog inaccuracies and general formatting. The statement "items may differ from catalog" is BS and I don't accept spending $1400 on their 'mistakes'. Your mileage will vary...

Opinion-a professional business company should accurately depict catalog offerings and ensure attention to detail *prior* to releasing a catalog. The catalog is a mere 'snap shot' of not only the products but a company's image/professionalism.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ...Incidentally, in the Notch 6 broadcast on MR's new job he refers to impossible deadlines and language barrier emails, presumably with Chinese manufacturers. ...


Oh that came through loud and clear!!! Mike sounded like one burned out fella when talking about his last position at Lionel. Given what we've seen on the consumer end, we can only imagine how challenging life became on the inside... from executive decisions that make no sense whatsoever to the seeming lack of control on the overseas manufacturing front. Not fun.

David


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Oh that came through loud and clear!!! Mike sounded like one burned out fella when talking about his last position at Lionel. Given what we've seen on the consumer end, we can only imagine how challenging life became on the inside... from executive decisions that make no sense whatsoever to the seeming lack of control on the overseas manufacturing front. Not fun.
> 
> David


Yes!!! I bought some of those impossible deadlines that were met. Makes me leery of Lionel now, but they keep kjitting a home run every once in a while. The LC+ Universal controller, the Legacy SD90MAC. I just wish . . . oh! Never mind!!!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Executive decisions are the reason I stopped worked for big corporations. Being a cook for thirty plus years, working in hotels or chain restaurants is too much corporate bull crap. The ones who make the decisions have no idea what's going on, how to get it done nor do they care how effects their employees.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> Yes!!! I bought some of those impossible deadlines that were met. Makes me leery of Lionel now, but they keep kjitting a home run every once in a while. The LC+ Universal controller, the Legacy SD90MAC. I just wish . . . oh! Never mind!!!


:laugh:


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## gnnpnut (Oct 19, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> Just curious what others think.
> 
> The siren sound of another wonderful big loco is calling me. I suppose I will eventually succumb, but I intend to fight it a while first, at least, and maybe draw the line here.
> 
> ...


Well, since you asked, I'd purchase the 3rd Rail version of this locomotive, and wouldn't even give the Lionel version a second glance. 

http://www.3rdrail.com/instock.html#AC9

Or, sit on the sidelines, and wait for all the affordable AC-9s that will come up on the used market when people just have to get the latest bells and whistles. Dump in an ERR cruise unit, and get somebody to dress it up the way Hot Water had the one done below, and with either choice, you get something that is far superior to the Lionel current offering, for less money.















]

Here is a video so you can get an idea of the sound quality.

GNNPNUT


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'll go with the Lionel. I like Scott Mann and he stands behind his products, but Legacy has better sound than 3rd Rail does and runs much much better than TMCC for me. Nice weathering on the loco though. I like that . . .


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2017)

Beautiful engine, gnnpnut.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

What Brain said.


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## JimL (Aug 16, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Beautiful engine, gnnpnut.


It sure is. Actually, that entire train is very cool.



gnnpnut said:


> ..... and get somebody to dress it up the way Hot Water had the one done below.....


 What did he have done to it?


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