# Multiple Loops, Power Supplies, Circuit Protection, Train Controlls ?'s:



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

With some info gathered in another thread, I decided to post a different approach to duel loop control for my personal layout, and to see if this makes sense to those of you who are much more expert in model railroading than I am.

I have discovered that circuit protection for our newer electronically equipped locomotives comes at a very high cost, so that another approach to the ZW-750 or Z-4000 power supplies might be in order.

Further, I am given to understand that the Lionel Powerhouse 180 has very good circuit protection built in, so that expensive breakers or circuit protection boards might not be required, which leads me to the following proposed power system.

*I am planning an "L" shaped two loop layout with the two loops connected, but blocked and separately powered. The passenger trains and scenes would be in the body of the L, with the fright and yard located in the other led of the L, and with that loop running around the entire layout.

I am considering using a pair of Lionel Powerhouse 180 transformers, because of there proposed very good circuit protection, coupled with a pair of MTH Z-750 controllers. This would also split up the two supplies so that they could be placed in different positions on the layout to be more central to (1) the passenger loop, and (2) the freight and yard loop.

The cost of this combination would be approx. $75 each for the Powerhouse 180's, and $50 each for the Z-750's, for a total of $250 for the two control systems.*

I also have a Lionel CW-80 and an MTH Z-500 that I can use for switches, accessories or whatever might come up, so that the extra supplies of the ZW and Z are not really required.

Again, I ask you all in the know: Does this make sense from a cost point of view?


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

From a cost point of view, definitely.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> From a cost point of view, definitely.


Thanks Lee

How about from a delicate electronics protection point of view?
That is regarding the Lionel Powerhouse, are they as good at circuit breaking as I have been led to believe?
Also, are the Z-750's a good choice for control?


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

The 180 watt Power bricks by Lionel have two potential problems if purchased new: 

1). When I went looking for one it was impossible to find new. There were used ones but used electronic anything is a gamble, in my opinion. I went with separating the switches and accessories from the train power supply and used two 100 watt MTH Power Bricks with my all MTH DCS TIU/AIU setup.

2). Can you really find a new 180 watt Lionel power brick for only $75? The list price is $100 and the couple sources I just checked out had none with no known future delivery date. My original search was about two years ago and the supply of these transformers new has not ever met demand.

As for the circuit protection, The 100 watt power brick by MTH has a circuit breaker that is totally too slow. I kept blowing the 20 amp (!!!!) fuses inside the TIU and the power brick circuit breaker never even quivered. I connected the DCS in passive mode (power delivered directly to the tracks and does not go through TIU) and of course I did not blow a fuse again (no current through it in Passive Mode). I did not feel safe with no effective circuit protection for the track so I found a used super fast acting magnetic circuit breaker in the used avionic market that works great. Even used it was not cheap.It works great. The max current available from these 100 watt bricks is 5.5 amps and the breaker is a 7.5 amp breaker...perfect.

I realize you are doing conventional (I think???) but you may want to revise your choices as those 180 watt power bricks are scarce. The 100 watt ones will require fast external circuit breakers which will increase you cost estimates. Maybe you should invest in a big MTH Z4000 or a used Lionel ZW. The first is 400 watts and the latter is 275 watts.

Also remember that the power brick current output needs to be matched by the analog controller capacity. Using a 75 watt controller on a 180 watt transformer may lead to the controller turning into toast.

LDBennett


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Along with good circuit breakers you should have a TVS(transient voltage suppressor) unit for the newer engines added in at the transformer output. Mouser Electronics has them, should only be a couple of dollars but can help you with momentary over voltage protection.

I agree with Lynn Bennett about not using the MTH Z-750(75 watt) control unit with a 180 watt power brick as you will "smoke it!" Even an MTH Z-1000(100 watt) control is not strong enough. You must have a control unit rated for 180 watts or more.

I did house wiring for a little and know about voltage and current ratings.

Lee Fritz


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

OK....Why do we need a TVS (transient voltage suppressor)? What is the source of transient voltage spikes? How high are they? If it is such a problem why do the electronic manufacturers include it in the electronics for trains? Why does Lionel and MTH not sell such a module? Why would the surge protector AC strips not be sufficient?

Sorry, but my electronics design background needs to know if this is just hype or a real problem.

LDBenentt


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Lynn D Bennett said:


> The 180 watt Power bricks by Lionel have two potential problems if purchased new:
> 
> 1). When I went looking for one it was impossible to find new. There were used ones but used electronic anything is a gamble, in my opinion. I went with separating the switches and accessories from the train power supply and used two 100 watt MTH Power Bricks with my all MTH DCS TIU/AIU setup.
> 
> ...


I looked and looked and did not realize that the Z-750 was only rated for 75 watts. I was also unaware of the Z-100 which I now know is also rated at only 100 watts. I probably should have been able to deduce this, but I didn't.

True indeed: 75 or even 100 watts would not be strong enough for the 180 watt Powerhouse, and that is why I like suggesting thingss here, so that you guys can help me do the best thing.

I did find the *Lionel Powerhouse 180 at Train World for $74 and change *but upon checking again, *I see that they are only taking backorders*. I missed that last night.

*I do have the TVS diodes * recommended on this forum. I ordered 10 of them from DigiKey, and they just arrived a couple days ago.

*I guess I am back to one of the following power systems:*

1) *Rebuilt ZW-275 *for approx. $170 and two *PSX- AC’s *at $55 each.
Still not too bad on price at just under $300 total.

2) Two *new MTH Z-1000 *brick & controller units at $100 each and two *PSX-AC’s *at $55 each.
Also not too bad on price at just over $300 total.

The Z-1000 option would, again, allow me to split up the controls for the two loops into separate locations, it I really wanted to do that.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Did you see the magnetic breakers I posted in your other thread?


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Did you see the magnetic breakers I posted in your other thread?


_Here is the response that I gave over in the other thread:_

I tried to find that number but could it would not come up.
I tried to get to it through both there main search, as well as the filtered search.

I did find this one on their site, and it is 10A and 80V, but seems to be a different series, and it is $26 and change, not bad, but clearly different than the one you provided.
They call it Magnetic (Hydraulic Delay) and the part number is IEG6-1-72-15.0-01-V and can be found at the link below.

http://www.digikey.com/product-searc...1-V&vendor=723

Also, this is 80v DC, 250v AC.
Doesn't look right to me............


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Based upon the latest catalogs and what I see, for example, on Trainworld's website, the Lionel 180w bricks are back in production and expected shortly. A quick web search may find other sources. If they could be tested, I also would see little risk to buying them used.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Probably the best approach if you want 180 watts from a power brick is the Lionel GW 180. The controller is matched to the 180 watt power brick. I don't know if the controller is available separately???? Or if you can even buy the combo brick and controller ??? All these transformers seem hard to come by as Lionel or MTH don't seem to keep a back log of them in stock. It is feast or famine with them.

From the planning stage of my layout I wanted Digital control. After a little research I chose MTH DCS because DCC by Lionel seemed so complicated to use. Lionel came out with Legacy which is more like DCS than DCC but I still think DSC is simpler to use. I did not waste my time with conventional at all but I had zero conventional engines. If I ever get any I can actually run either them or DCS with the addition of a few electrical items. 

Anyway if it is all in the planning stage and you are starting out with zero engines I think a person needs to consider MTH DCS or at least Lionel Legacy. The thing that got me into 3 rail O scale trains was the digital control. I would not have had any interest at all in conventional. I did that some 50+ years ago as a kid and I'm over conventional. I like the added detail of all the MTH stuff, both Premier and RailKing. As a kid I never liked the toy look of Lionel O-27 which is what I had. Whenever the family would go shopping at Sears (which was nearly every week) I gravitated to the S Gauge American Flyer because it was so much more realistic. Today's O gauge is every bit as detailed and accurate as American Flyer was back in the 1950's.

Just food for thought.

LDBennett


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## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

Herk,
I have never liked the Bricks, although the 180 has a great fast acting internal breaker, IMO it still limits the power usage way to much, IMO you would be much better off with an old ZW transformer, which gives you 4 channels for running trains. Put a set of Scott type 7 or 10 Amp resettable breakers in front of it, and you have no problem. If you gave me a Lionel 180 brick I would sell it. 

PCRR/Dave


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Different strokes for different folks Dave. 

I love the bricks, no muss, no fuss! Since I run pretty much command all the way, I have no need for variable throttles. I also have the MTH TIU to run conventional through the two channels if I feel the sudden urge. I can have the power of the Z-4000 for half the price, and it's a whole lot more compact. The bricks are running trains, the Z-4000 is putting a bow in one of my shelves.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

herkulese said:


> I looked and looked and did not realize that the Z-750 was only rated for 75 watts. I was also unaware of the Z-100 which I now know is also rated at only 100 watts. I probably should have been able to deduce this, but I didn't.
> 
> True indeed: 75 or even 100 watts would not be strong enough for the 180 watt Powerhouse, and that is why I like suggesting thingss here, so that you guys can help me do the best thing.
> 
> ...


Ebay has 180 bricks showing up, I just purchased 3 new ones from Americans Best a couple of weeks ago. The new one's were 99. I just saw someone on another forum looking for them and someone offered him 2 for $80. I brought a zw with two 180 bricks for $199. I used the bricks and packed the transformer away. The art of a deal.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jim, I have one of the ZW-C units sitting on the shelf, but the bricks work great.


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## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

*Each to his own*

Guns,

 John you and I have differed on this power option for our layouts for many many years, I guess the big point here is, both work very very well when set up correctly. Neither of us has ever damaged any engines that I know of.

PCRR/Dave


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Different strokes for different folks Dave.
> 
> I love the bricks, no muss, no fuss! Since I run pretty much command all the way, I have no need for variable throttles. I also have the MTH TIU to run conventional through the two channels if I feel the sudden urge. I can have the power of the Z-4000 for half the price, and it's a whole lot more compact. The bricks are running trains, the Z-4000 is putting a bow in one of my shelves.


Hay John,

I have never been able to quite get a bead on what you actually use for circuit protection. You have discussed many things, an provided links to different equipment, but getting down to it, if I may be so bold, what do you use to protect your electronic equipment, and where do you have it wired into your system?

Thanks for all the info,
Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What??? You're getting bold??? 

I use the PH180 bricks and a TVS, in my case it's internal to my MTH TIU which feeds the tracks. The combo has treated me well.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What??? You're getting bold???
> 
> I use the PH180 bricks and a TVS, in my case it's internal to my MTH TIU which feeds the tracks. The combo has treated me well.


Did I say BOLD?
I meant to say OLD?

So then, I must assume that you believe the PH180 bricks to have sufficient circuit breaking for all your delicate equipment. Correct?

Also, where all do you have the TVS's located?
_____________________________________________

I would really like to use the PH-180’s but I am just not ready to go to DCS just yet, so that leaves me without controllers, and to 180 and brick combo is well over $250 each.

I am leaning very much toward a rebuilt ZW-275 with a pair of those circuit breakers you linked to, however, based on the shape of my proposed layout, I also really would like to consider two separate power stations.

So I will bring up the Z-1000’s again, and ask if it is know whether they have the same, or similar, circuit breaking as the PH-180’s?


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Where is the best place to install your circuit protection? Before or after the MTH TIU?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes, I do feel that the PH180 circuit protection is sufficient, and the TIU having a 1500W TVS across the output satisfies the voltage spike suppression task. I also put a TVS into locomotives that I'm already in tinkering with the wiring or upgrading, it's cheap insurance. 

In the case of the TIU, the TVS protection is on the output terminals, which is a good location. 

You want good circuit protection before the TIU as an overload on the TIU can take it out. For powering it with something like a PW transformer, put the circuit protection between the transformer and the input terminals of the TIU channels.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yes, I do feel that the PH180 circuit protection is sufficient, and the TIU having a 1500W TVS across the output satisfies the voltage spike suppression task. I also put a TVS into locomotives that I'm already in tinkering with the wiring or upgrading, it's cheap insurance.
> 
> In the case of the TIU, the TVS protection is on the output terminals, which is a good location.
> 
> You want good circuit protection before the TIU as an overload on the TIU can take it out. For powering it with something like a PW transformer, put the circuit protection between the transformer and the input terminals of the TIU channels.


Awesome information John,

So no matter the situation, the TVS would go on the output terminals of the transformer, and the breaker would go just beyond the transformer, whether a ZW or a Brick.
In the case of the brick, the breaker would end up between the brick and whatever controller is used. Correct?

However, if using a PH-180 brick, I have come to the conclusion based on your experience, as well as some others here and elsewhere, that a breaker would not be needed.

I just wish there was a less expensive controller for use with the PH-180 than the 180 controller. At $260+ for the combo, it gets a bit expensive, especially when you start using multiples of them.
____________________________

*Question 1)* Again, if I don’t want to spring for the DCS system just yet, would the Z-1000’s be safe without external circuit protection, or are they not as protective as the PH-180?
NOTE: Of course the breakers that you linked to, at $21 each would not break the bank either, but if not required it would keep things simpler.

*Question 2)* Would the Z-1000 bricks be enough to power the TIU if and when I ever did move to DCS?
NOTE: I do plan to use a STAR wiring pattern for my layout loops, so that I will be able to make the move to DCS in the future should that become desirable to me.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There is a less expensive option, look for the ZW-C controller. For the $160 additional price of that GW-180 controller, I'll sell you the four channel ZW-C that's sitting on my shelf. It's also TMCC compatible, so you can operate all the handles from a remote if you desire. 

Looks just like the ZW, only it accept up to four PH180 bricks to give you 720 watts of power on four channels.


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## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

*Breaker placement*

Todd,

Put your 7 or 10 Amp Resettable Breakers between all your Transformers and your TIU on the Red mid rail line of every Channel. Your TIU already has a built in TVS. Running in this manner I have never had a problem of any kind. Also notice the new ZW-L has no Bricks, instead Lionel re-issued the stand alone 180 Bricks, if for some foolish reason you actually want to run in that misguided manner, eliminating a good Z4K Transformer and the Z4K Track mode that comes with it, seems like a poor layout engineering move to me. Some guys are now running with both a ZW-L & a Z4K combo, to acquire all the different engineering options, available from both transformers. I have not purchased a new ZW-L because of the cost, I do have 3 Z4K's however, two I picked up used for great prices, if I can find a ZW-L used, and at a decent price, I will pick one up also.

Oops did I really say that in print!

Herk,
IMO save your money and eventually purchase a Z4K, it has some serious options that go along with the DCS and it's TR modes. The Z-1000 is the smallest Transformer I recommend for any permanent layout. Look around for a used Z4K like I did, sooner or later you will find a good deal on a used one in perfect shape.

PCRR/Dave


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I have quick blow fuses between the transformer and the TIU now. And works fine, but one thing I never understood is: if the short is coming from the track to begin with, don't you want protection before the TIU?


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Suppose the track is shorted. High current flows from the transformer through the TIU to the track. That current flows through the entire circuit. The idea of the circuit breaker is to stop the flow of current. If the current flows everywhere then there is no idea place for the breaker or fuse. Anywhere in the circuit works.

Another scenario is something inside the TIU shorts. If the circuit breaker/fuse is on the output of the TIU then the TIU is not protected by the circuit breaker/fuse. But the TIU has internal 20Amp fuses, one on each channel. But they are on the output so a internal circuit short will not blow them. Only a circuit breaker on the input to the TIU will do that in this case.

Probably the ideal compromise place for the circuit breaker/fuse is between the source of power for the TIU and the TIU. Loosing power to the TIU can confuse the remote controller and it may take some power off resets to regain total control of engines on the layout.

My layout power is so unique I hesitate to mention it but I will. For track power I have the 100watt MTH Power Brick. Its circuit breaker is a joke. You can weld stuff before it will trip...way too slow. The power brick is tied directly to the track (MTH DCS Passive Mode of operation) with a fast acting magnetically triggered circuit breaker between the power brick and the track. The track is also tied to a channel of the TIU where the TIU impresses the control signals on the track. No current for the track flows through the TIU. I run NO conventional trains, only MTH DCS PS3 engines. This all works for me. 

It got this way iteratively. At first I relied on the power Brick circuit breaker but it never tripped with simple derailment shorts. Instead the 20 amp fuses inside the TIU blew. After a half dozen times of removing a bunch of screws to get to the fuses I moved to MTH Passive Mode. That stopped having to open up the TIU with every short circuit but I wanted protection so I searched out a fast acting magnetically tripped circuit breaker, new. Could not find one anyone stocked so searched on the surplus market and found one formerly used in an airplane. It works perfect and, according to its specs, in less than a second. Thermally tripped circuit breakers can take ten times longer or more to trip.

There are other solutions including an electronic circuit protector board that includes over voltage spike protection. gunrunnerjohn referenced one (maybe he'll post the link again).

LDBennett


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## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

*Power*

Todd,

The power is coming from your transformer thru your TIU when set up correctly, you want to kill the power from the transformer to the TIU when there is a short, that is why you place the fuses or breakers between the Transformer and the TIU. 

The track only has the power the Transformer provides.

PCRR/Dave


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Makes better sense. Thanks Lynn, Dave and of course John. 

Lynn, I've got a bunch of those MTH 100 watters that I have been giving out to friends getting in the hobby to get them started. I've used one for lighting and switch power and seems to work just fine for that purpose. The Lionel 180 works great as does the Z4000 breakers. I saw John mentioning this new fab circuit protection from Tony's Train Exchange. I bought one to check it out.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Todd:

Let us know how well it works.

LDBennett


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Pine Creek RailRoad:

If the short is on the track it makes no difference where you remove the power. But if you kill the power to the TIU then it may get lost in its control of the trains when power is reapplied. The excess current that is being detected has to go through the power supply, the TIU, and the track. Removing the short by disconnecting the track is sufficient. 

On the other hand if the short might be internal to the TIU then obviously turning the TIU off is a good idea.

So which is more likely? It makes more sense even with the risk of train control loss after power is restored to protect the track and the TIU. I say put the circuit breaker so it removes power from the track and the TIU but be prepared for trouble staring up again.

I had no problem with your solution, just your logic as to why to do it the way you suggested.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There is a strong recommendation by MTH that you protect the TIU from excessive currents from the transformer, so you put the overcurrent protection between the transformer and the TIU. If you are concerned about losing control because the TIU is powered from FIXED #1, just power it from the aux power with an independent supply, problem solved.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> There is a less expensive option, look for the ZW-C controller. For the $160 additional price of that GW-180 controller, I'll sell you the four channel ZW-C that's sitting on my shelf. It's also TMCC compatible, so you can operate all the handles from a remote if you desire.
> 
> Looks just like the ZW, only it accept up to four PH180 bricks to give you 720 watts of power on four channels.


Very compelling John,

I went and read up on the ZW-C, and it would appear that I would plug two PH-180s into this unit to get good solid circuit protected, controlled power to my two loops, for running my conventional, as will as my Lion Chief and MTH Protosound 3 locomotives.
Is this a fair accessment?

Also, how would I use the ZW-C if I went to DCS later down the road?
Would I just pull it out of the mix and plug the bricks in direct?
Or could I still, somehow, have the ZW-C in the setup?

Roger


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## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

*Power*

Lynn,

Guns answered for me before I could even get home to read your reply. I also always take for granted that everyone powers the TIU thru the Aux with a separate power supply, which probably I shouldn't, cause lots don't. As Guns pointed out I set my Breakers up where MTH advises to safe guard the TIU from the Transformer. I probably should have used better wording in my post to Todd however. 

PCRR/Dave


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

herkulese said:


> Very compelling John,
> 
> I went and read up on the ZW-C, and it would appear that I would plug two PH-180s into this unit to get good solid circuit protected, controlled power to my two loops, for running my conventional, as will as my Lion Chief and MTH Protosound 3 locomotives.
> Is this a fair accessment?
> ...


The ZW-C can be used as input to the TIU, but truthfully if you go with DCS, it's somewhat of a duplicate capability. The TIU will give you two fixed and two variable (or fixed) channels. You can run one to four power bricks into the ZW-C, it provides variable outputs controlled by either manual or TMCC. If you have three low power loops, you can actually configure it to power all of them from one brick and just power a single handle from a single brick.

Here's the ZW-Controller User's Manual, check it out.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The ZW-C can be used as input to the TIU, but truthfully if you go with DCS, it's somewhat of a duplicate capability. The TIU will give you two fixed and two variable (or fixed) channels. You can run one to four power bricks into the ZW-C, it provides variable outputs controlled by either manual or TMCC. If you have three low power loops, you can actually configure it to power all of them from one brick and just power a single handle from a single brick.
> 
> Here's the ZW-Controller User's Manual, check it out.


Thanks John,

For now I believe that I could run one brick with it as I only have one loop at present.
I will read the manual, but I think I am very interested in your ZW-C.

Now I just have to find the bricks. Maybe Trainworld will get some in soon.

BTW, I have attached the pic of my future layout in SCARM again.

Thanks
Roger


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

herkulese:

About your layout:

Having just gone through building a layout in the last couple years after returning to model railroading after a 60 year break, I learned a few things you can't get from computer generated track layout drawings.

First avoid the tight O-31 curves. It really limits which engines and cars you can run.

Maintain at least 6 inches between parallel track including in the turns.

Use easements to make your track flow more natural looking. Look up "easement" in a track layout book to see what I mean.

Avoid MTH RealTrax and MTH switches. The lack of rail alignment pins create bumps and grinds to the engine travels. I had to file and grind my RealTrax track to minimize this problem. The switches create similar problems as the track spacing and guide rails add bumps and grinds to the train travels. I have a couple short section of Atlas Flex track that allow sweeping turns and good running but others make as good or better track...research it. If you can avoid sectional track do so. But Lionel FasTrack is a good product. Others make better ones. Alignment of the rail ends with pins is key for sectional track!! 

Plan out your control system before you even start. Is it to be Lionel's TMCC or Legacy or MTH's DCS. I think DCS is the best choice as you can run Conventional, TMCC, Legacy and DCS from the same remote digital controller (but maybe not all at once?) with partially adding electronics from the other systems.

Use STAR wiring not Buss wiring. Power the track every 6 to 10 running feet with a two wire lock-on where the pair of supply 16 gauge wires are carried all the way back to the power source (STAR wiring).

Be aware of the overhang of cars and engines in turns such that your parallel tracks don't have trains clipping each other while passing. This also applies to structures adjacent to the tracks.

The layout programs do not take into account that sectional track switches have switch motors on them that hang out the side. Their layout will put tracks parallel to each other where in reality the switch motors interfere with the parallel track.

I cannot emphasize how important the tack planning is. Get it wrong and you'll have to compromise fix it (been there, done that!). Be prepared to have to modify the layout plan when using sectional track. I had planned a reversing track section but had to abandon it because switch motors interfered with the parallel track.

Good luck with your new layout.

LDBennett


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Lynn D Bennett said:


> herkulese:
> 
> About your layout:
> 
> ...


Thsnks Lynn,

I have the main (top section) of the loop already, but without the L section going toward the bottom. I am using the O-31 track corners because I am pressed for space. I know that this fact limits the kinds of locos and cars that I can run, but I am truly OK with that.

I am running my trains a lot and playing with the switch motor placement as well. I have measurements for clearance, and now that I look at it again, I do believe some of those switches in the yard down in lower leg of the L could be placed too tight for the control sections.

Thanks for the tips, and I do know that it is best to do a temp layout first, before diving into the final product. I will have to do some more work on this it would appear.

Thanks again,
Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know if you've looked at these O31 switches, but they work well in a yard as you can space things closer. They come with a bunch of track sections and the switch lantern is removable for closer quarters. When I was using O31 curves, I used some of these, they made for a nice yard configuration. Ignore the train store logo, I just grabbed this image from the web, too lazy to take them out of boxes for pictures. 

Lionel 6-23010, 6-23011 O31 Diameter Switches


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I don't know if you've looked at these O31 switches, but they work well in a yard as you can space things closer. They come with a bunch of track sections and the switch lantern is removable for closer quarters. When I was using O31 curves, I used some of these, they made for a nice yard configuration. Ignore the train store logo, I just grabbed this image from the web, too lazy to take them out of boxes for pictures.
> 
> Lionel 6-23010, 6-23011 O31 Diameter Switches


I really don't care about the lanterns at all, especially in the yard area, and these would certainly do the trick for my yard.


I suppose I could get an adapter section to hook ahead of the first switch, just after it splits off the main line. Then I could just make the yard out of regular old school 3 rail track, with the fastrack around the outer loop.

I will say, that these are not easy to find. I would need 5 left hand switches and so fare I have only found the pair that you showed, and a couple of right hands. But this is worth waiting for and picking up as they show up.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

This is one way to configure the yard with the switches I mentioned, minimizes the S-turns that are a real problem at times. You also get more yard space, note the 4.25" spacing center to center. While you don't run mainlines this close, it's not an issue as a rule in the yard where you just want maximum storage. You probably can get at least two more yard tracks by compressing the space, more storage for the rapidly expanding fleet.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> This is one way to configure the yard with the switches I mentioned, minimizes the S-turns that are a real problem at times. You also get more yard space, note the 4.25" spacing center to center. While you don't run mainlines this close, it's not an issue as a rule in the yard where you just want maximum storage. You probably can get at least two more yard tracks by compressing the space, more storage for the rapidly expanding fleet.
> 
> View attachment 140466


Thanks again John,

I just hope I cam find the switches, and they are not cheap either.
But then neither are the Fastrack switches.

BTW is that pic from a Track Software?
If so which one do you use?

Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Let me know if you need that style switch, I have a number of them. I use AnyRail for my track layout software.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Let me know if you need that style switch, I have a number of them. I use AnyRail for my track layout software.


if I chose to go this rout, I would need 5 Left Hand switches to fill out my yard.

*NOTE: *I would need to install an adapter section between the Right Hand turn out from the Fastrak switch in the main line and the Incoming section of the first Left Hand Standard 3 Rail switch in the yard, but my layout doesn't have any provision for an extra section of track in that location.

*QUESTION:* Could I use the method from the "Special Length Section Modification" to simply remove the two Fastrack pins, and then install the three standard pins to mate up to the these standard 3 rail switches? I understand that one of the factrack outer rails is recesstd, and that there would be a slight bump there, but I would think that the pin should still make the connection.

The other option might me to just cut off the very end of that extra 11.25 degree curve in the Right Hand turn out from the main line, as close to the recessed portion as possible, without damaging the center connection on the bottom side, and then install the three standard pins.

Any thoughts on this?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You can quite simply mate them like you way with modifying a piece of track. I haven't tried those and a Fastrack set to see how much closer you get with these, that would be an interesting experiment.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

On a lark, I took the Fastrack O31 switches and did a yard configuration with those like the previous one I did. I ends up being 5.5" spacing on the yard tracks vs. the 4.25" spacing possible with the tubular switches. Here's the comparison.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Hay John,

Here is the attachment I told you that I would post.
Take a look.

Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The interference is at the red arrow. The track program lets you put it together, but the laws of physics don't let it work in the real world. Something about two objects occupying the same space at the same time!


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The interference is at the red arrow. The track program lets you put it together, but the laws of physics don't let it work in the real world. Something about two objects occupying the same space at the same time!
> 
> View attachment 141185


I get that all right. But your layout and mine are different. The switches in yours are clearly longer, and seem to clear each other. Your real switches are probably more like the ones in my layout. Maybe a newer version in the latest download software, but there is a difference.

Now the interesting part is that I get a 4.3" spacing with my short switches, and you got 4.25 with the seemingly longer ones.

I will have to go back and look. Maybe yours was at a steeper angle.


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

If you guys are doing this with software beware. It may allow it to be hooked up in the ethers but not in real life. You actually have to do it in reality to be sure it will work. My software program does not leave any room for switch motors at all and it impacted my well thought out software layout plan when I attempted to hook it up in reality. I had to eliminate a reversing track I really wanted because of this very problem. Because of limited spaces for my layout the already built bench work could not be modified to include the reversing track. In addition, it spaced the track too closely and trains were clipping each other in some my tight turns. I had to add an appendage to the benchwork to allow greater separation. Still, some combination of train consists still clip each other in another tight parallel track situation. I just have to live with it and choose my consists with that in mind (long rolling stock is the problem and I have a lot of it along with a lot of O-31 turns).

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree Lynn, that's why I did a trial and discovered they wouldn't work without a small extension between them.

The arrow is the straight line out of the switch, note that it cuts across the switch base.

The square is the removable lantern section, that's not enough to eliminate the interference of the base.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I agree Lynn, that's why I did a trial and discovered they wouldn't work without a small extension between them.
> 
> The arrow is the straight line out of the switch, note that it cuts across the switch base.
> 
> ...


I Wonder:

It looks like the top surface of the interfering portion of the second switch is not much taller than the actual track/rail support surface on the first switch. This could be a wrong assessment of the picture, but it sure looks like the case from the angle that I am looking at.

Soooo, would it be available to take a piece of standard 3 rail track, and remove the metal cross tie at the end where it would connect to the first switch, then maybe even reinstall onto the track piece, back just far enough, so that the track could be connected to the first switch without the cross tie interfering with the corner of the second switch?

Then, if that top surface on the second switch is just a bit high, which it does seem to be, it can’t be by much, and maybe that surface could be, very carefully relieved, with a dremel tool or some such tool just enough so that the bottom of the connecting rail could clear. It would only be a small part of the corner to trim, and it looks like that area is thick enough to do this without getting into the inner area where the lantern plugs in.

Just a though,
Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You'd have to pull the switch apart to see what is under there, I'm not sure. Extending them with the small 2" fitter that comes with them made it work, but that also expanded the spacing.

Here's the "final" study. I laid them out on the bench and determined that a 1" tubular track "fitter" between them gave them clearance without the lanterns attached. So, here's a comparison of O22, 23010, and Fastrack O31 switches for a yard.

Looks like a 6/10" advantage for the 23010 over the Fastrack, and the O22 option blows the spacing out to 7".


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You'd have to pull the switch apart to see what is under there, I'm not sure. Extending them with the small 2" fitter that comes with them made it work, but that also expanded the spacing.
> 
> Here's the "final" study. I laid them out on the bench and determined that a 1" tubular track "fitter" between them gave them clearance without the lanterns attached. So, here's a comparison of O22, 23010, and Fastrack O31 switches for a yard.
> 
> ...


WOW!!!

Nice work John.

Thanks


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The ZW-C can be used as input to the TIU, but truthfully if you go with DCS, it's somewhat of a duplicate capability. The TIU will give you two fixed and two variable (or fixed) channels. You can run one to four power bricks into the ZW-C, it provides variable outputs controlled by either manual or TMCC. If you have three low power loops, you can actually configure it to power all of them from one brick and just power a single handle from a single brick.
> 
> Here's the ZW-Controller User's Manual, check it out.


Well, I ordered the ZW Controller & Two PH-180 bricks transformer set, for $250, and it showed up last Friday.

It was well packed, and the seller sent me emails letting me know that he had delivered it to the shipper, then he emailed me to let me know that it had arrived, as I was at work at the time, and to ask if all was as I had hoped.

All I can say is that WOW! Those are some monstrous bricks. I knew they were big, but they are much bigger than I had ever considered. Now this is not a problem, at all, as they can be mounted in a lot of different places under my layout. I was just surprised at the size and weight, very substantial.

The whole setup came in the original box and foam packing and actually looks brand new. I haven't had a chance to wire it up yet, but that will come soon enough.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Now all I have to do is settle on which track system I am going to use. I was all set to go with Ross Custom Switches, Ross track, and Rossbed road bed. However, after seeing the sample of the Rossbed, I am not so sure. I will most likely still go with Ross switches, and would like to consider Atlas track and there 3 Rail roadbed, but Atlas does not carry O-31 curves, so I am a bit up in the air on the track and roadbed.

Thanks for all the guidance,
Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sounds great, glad it all worked out.


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