# Lionel Standard Gauge set #34B



## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Hi Guys,


I was able to buy a complete set #34B from Ebay, this is what is included:

1.Engine #33

2. Passenger cars #35, #36

3. Transformer T Type.

4. Rheostat #81.

5. Track, 6 straight, 8 curved.

6. original directions book.

7. Original box.



I want to know more information about this train, year, tips, etc.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Made In 1913 through 1924 in many colors. So it's old.


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## Prewar Pappy (Jul 26, 2015)

*Somewhat Confusing, Need To Research*

You have a very interesting set. A real rarity if all original. A #33 from the era should have hook couplers. Yours has the much later combination couplers.

The #35 & #36 Passenger Cars from the era should have hook couplers mounted to a pin in the floor held on by a press washer. The same cars would be illuminated with a light string with wooden sockets. Power to this light string was provided by a insulated terminal on the rear of the #33 engine.

The #35 &#36 Passenger Cars in your photo have the later pocket combination couplers. The illuminated cars came along later. These usually came 500 series trucks.

Yours is a very interesting and puzzling set. This is my opinion of course.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

And the boxes, too ...

Wow!!!


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

It's an amazing set!! Where can I get more information of Lionel standard gauge.





Gustavo


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Prewar Pappy said:


> You have a very interesting set. A real rarity if all original. A #33 from the era should have hook couplers. Yours has the much later combination couplers.
> 
> The #35 & #36 Passenger Cars from the era should have hook couplers mounted to a pin in the floor held on by a press washer. The same cars would be illuminated with a light string with wooden sockets. Power to this light string was provided by a insulated terminal on the rear of the #33 engine.
> 
> ...




Well I did my research before I bought it, all the #33 engines I checked have the same couplers, and the passenger cars are illuminated as well......



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Lionel 34 Set dates to 1917*

Gustavo,
I did some reading in "The Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1901-1942; David Doyle (2007), and from looking at the set you purchased, it dates to 1917. The couplers on all the pieces are absolutely correct (combination type coupler). I have to take a scan or picture of the 1917 Catalog page, which shows that exact same set, listed with #33 NYC 0-B-0 or 0-4-0 arrangement, 35 Pullman, 36 Observation car, 8 curved track, 2 straight track and originally sold for $14.50 in 1917. There was no mention of a transformer/rheostat included, so I assume it had to be purchased separately.

The 2007 book value that is listed for Very Good condition are:
#33 @ $100
#35 @ $25
#36 @ $25, which are the values on each individually. I checked on previous sold or pending sales of the #34 set, and the prices start around $175 on low end, to upwards of $279.

From your post, it appears that the set is in very good condition, with the exception of missing paint, etc.. Overall you did great with your purchase, and hopefully you didn't pay too much for it. I would probably just leave the paint as is, just do good cleaning overall, and put a good coat of wax on it.

On a side note, what ever happened with the 230 B&O you were haggling for? I will get a photo of the catalog page, as soon as I can, and send it via email.

If you want to find info on both Prewar and Postwar Lionel trains, try and find copies of the above referenced book/books from David Doyle. They are both out of print, but you can sometimes find good deals on both books, just by doing a little searching. Search on eBay, do a "Google" search, and see if you can find a copy at the lowest price you can find, as some sell them at premium prices. I paid close to original price for my copies, and they are used very often, and have paid for themselves many times over. My reason for buying the books, was to know what an expected value of certain items were selling for, so that I didn't make the mistake of bidding on things with a crazy bid, only to find out that I paid too much. Knowing the value (approximate for today's market), saves a lot of grief in the long run, and therefore I know how high I am willing to go, on certain items.
Doc


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## Prewar Pappy (Jul 26, 2015)

*That's Why It's My Opinion*

Hey Now, Don't Crucify Me.
I shot off the cuff. It wasn't worth editing my earlier post after checking my records. I own the earlier set with hook couplers w/o track. Doc was correct about the transformer & rheostat. Next time I'll overlook without saying I'll research. It's still a very good set. FWIW


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Prewar Pappy said:


> Hey Now, Don't Crucify Me.
> I shot off the cuff. It wasn't worth editing my earlier post after checking my records. I own the earlier set with hook couplers w/o track. Doc was correct about the transformer & rheostat. Next time I'll overlook without saying I'll research. It's still a very good set. FWIW



Hi, 


I appreciate your information, it seems both type of couplers exist, I would like to see your set, tips, maintenance, T type transformer instructions, any thing you can help me with this set. Fortunately the engine is running with his original wiring and wheels in good shape.

The other sets I was looking for on eBay, non of them comes complete with track, transformer, rheostat, etc. I paid $345, I think is good price for a 100 years complete set.

Looking forward for your set.



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*No crucifying intended*

prewarpappy, 
There was nothing intended against your post, if you are referring to the type of couplers. I am actually new to prewar, and admit I have a whole lot to learn. I just wanted to clarify with Gustavo, as to the date of his Set, and the 1917 issue does show the "combo" couplers, whereas the early issues from 1912/13 are the type used by Ives, without any hook. You have to look at a lot of examples to try and determine year of issue, wheel arrangements, colors, markings.

The biggest problem lies in the fact that there is very little research material available on "Prewar", whether it's Ives, Dorfan, Bing, etal., for any "Prewar Buff" to refer to.

If you have any information in regard to Prewar, no matter what, there is a NEW Website, in its infancy now, to try and build a Library/Forum for strictly Prewar, but geared to Lionel. I would like to invite you to join the group. The site is WWW.PREWARLIONEL.COM, and you might be able to help in its growth.

Here are the pages of 1917 Lionel catalog from Doyle's book:


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

I'm been trying to get more information about standard gauge trains and is very scarce, why?? This trains still out there, is there another places or forums?




Gustavo


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> I'm been trying to get more information about standard gauge trains and is very scarce, why?? This trains still out there, is there another places or forums?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Google is your friend. Search Standard Gauge Tinplate and you will find a lot of information. BTW, both MTH and Lionel still build Standard Gauge trains based on the old prewar tinplate classics like yours.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Ah! I have the 33, it's my only standard gauge train yet. I have 2 passenger cars, but not the end car. Something strange I spy is the couplers. They use a lever on this, but the 33 has hook couplers. Pretty much the same thing as Marx couplers, but with tiny prongs on the ends for some reason. I also notice the way the couplers are attached is different. Mine has no covers on the bottom of the couplers, what you have has some kind of triangle shaped coupler.
The 33 isn't too much of a rare train, the engine is worth I'd say just over $100. I believe it was made around WWI, definitely before WWII. I run mine on a Lionel KW. It puts out 20 volts, not 25, so I'm not sure if this is the reason mine runs slowly. Although it's almost 100 years old, the brushes might be dirty. The motor is a black color too, but I don't see why this would slow it down. I've lubricated it, I'll probably just need new brushes to make it run fast. I like the placement of its direction switch, it feels like I'm actually driving the train. Remember to oil it too, it's old so it might need some more oil. Labelle 107 seems to work for me. I have the same passenger cars, but they have hook couplers and no lights. What you paid was a fair deal, considering you got the track, train, cars, rheostat, transformer, etc. and they're all original.
Unfortunately I don't have a T or TW transformer, only a KW. Do you know the voltage on that T type transformer? I'm curious as the KW only puts out 20 volts, I don't know if this is supposed to run on 20 or 25. (Some standard run on 25, but I think some can also be run on O gauge voltage which is 20.)


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Yukon Jack said:


> Google is your friend. Search Standard Gauge Tinplate and you will find a lot of information. BTW, both MTH and Lionel still build Standard Gauge trains based on the old prewar tinplate classics like yours.


I did google this train but theres not to much information or history, I guess the best bet is buying books.



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

400E Blue Comet, the 33 dates to 1917 for Haggy's set, but was first issued in 1913. If your #33 is running slow, it needs to be cleaned, new brushes installed, polishing of armature surface, and lubing axles. That should get it running a lot better. The "T" transformer won't get you a higher Voltage, if you assume it needs 25 volts. The normal hookup would vine you a variable voltage up to 18 volts, which is normal for that transformer. The "KW" is a very good transformer, and is perfect for running your train. I have two of them, along with a "ZW". If you need guidance on repairing/refurbish of your motor, just ask, and search this forum for answers. We are here to help anytime.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Hi,

I think is a privilege to have a pice of history on this trains, my outfit 34B is from 1917. The type T transformer gives you many options, I hooked it B-U 10,12,14,16,18V and she runs super fast, I stripped everything, complete engine disassemble and washing with light soap and worm water, the stator as well, very carefully with a soft toothbrush. The wheels same washing treatment to get rid off the old grease then dremel to polish the axels.

Re wiring everything and clean all the contacts with a 1000 sand paper, re assemble and oil moving parts with car oil 20W-50, runs like new with the cars......one more thing, clean the tracks.

Video here,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22afzByTmI




Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

teledoc said:


> 400E Blue Comet, the 33 dates to 1917 for Haggy's set, but was first issued in 1913. If your #33 is running slow, it needs to be cleaned, new brushes installed, polishing of armature surface, and lubing axles. That should get it running a lot better. The "T" transformer won't get you a higher Voltage, if you assume it needs 25 volts. The normal hookup would vine you a variable voltage up to 18 volts, which is normal for that transformer. The "KW" is a very good transformer, and is perfect for running your train. I have two of them, along with a "ZW". If you need guidance on repairing/refurbish of your motor, just ask, and search this forum for answers. We are here to help anytime.


Okay, what should I clean? I'm assuming the commutator. I don't think it's congealed oil, the wheels easily spin, but I was suspecting it might need new brushes. Once I have the time I'll get some and see if that works. How do I polish the armature surface? Wouldn't that just ruin the insulation?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Okay, what should I clean? I'm assuming the commutator. I don't think it's congealed oil, the wheels easily spin, but I was suspecting it might need new brushes. Once I have the time I'll get some and see if that works. How do I polish the armature surface? Wouldn't that just ruin the insulation?


Im not an expert by all means, but when you polish the axels the run smoother than before, I washed and clean the armature and commutator to get rid off the old grease, dust ans brushes residue over the armature and between the commutator copper, re wiring is a most.



Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> Im not an expert by all means, but when you polish the axels the run smoother than before, I washed and clean the armature and commutator to get rid off the old grease, dust ans brushes residue over the armature and between the commutator copper, re wiring is a most.
> 
> 
> 
> Gustavo


I think I'll try cleaning the end of the brushes and the commutator first, I don't know how to wash something like the armature without damaging it. Hopefully that will work. I don't think grease and residue on the axles is the problem though, its wheels spin easier than all my O gauge locomotives except for one of my steam engines. I don't think it needs to be rewired, when I got it the wires inside were new (Excluding the motor itself). It was missing the light and some details, but I've fixed it and wired the light too. The motor is black, but it still runs. I know it's not burnt, just dirty. Considering the motor still works, just slowly, I suspect it only needs new brushes and some cleaning on the commutator. I hope I don't have to replace the motor, but it's impressive how after almost a century it still works.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

When I get the set, the train runs very slow, I started with the multimeter, to check resistance and continuity, armature polish and commutator, washing is optional. Probably the wire material from this era wasn't the best and after 100 years gets weak and to much resistance, so try to do your best, if runs is miracle.


Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Cleaning tools*

400E Blue Comet,
What you should get for cleaning up the motors, is a bottle of 90% Isopropyl Alcohol, a box of Q-tips, from a drug store, and maybe some cotton balls. All these are cheap, but well worth having around. I would also say get a sheet of 1000 grit sandpaper, or 1200 grit. Another item to have around is a spray can of contact cleaner, NOT TV Tuner spray. Some people use Denatured alcohol, but I find that it leaves a residue, and it does have a minute amount of petroleum in it, causing that residue feel, so I don't use it.

Take the brush plate off the motor, and if you do get contact cleaner, give the inner surface of the brush plate a spray, and then spray the surface of the armature, to get rid of most of the dirt/oil build up. Things will get messy real quick, but you want to get rid of all the gunk built up over the years. Pull the brushes out of the brush plate, and use a Q-tip to clean out the inside of the brush holders. If you get cotton balls, along with the Q-tips, wipe off the build up on the face of the armature. Get it as clean as you can that way first. The copper face of the armature is the next thing to attack. Check to see if it is scored from running it with old brushes. Depending on how badly it is scored, and appears to be salvageable, take a small piece of the sand paper, and sand down the surfaces, until they are as clean and shiny as you can get them. Install a new set of brushes, and re-assemble the motor. That should take care of rebuilding the motor, and it should run a lot better. Also, use the alcohol and an old rag (t-shirt, old bathroom towel cut up in small squares, etc.) and give the motor a good complete wipe down. Apply a small drop of oil at the axles, where they go through the motor, and then give it a test run. You should find it will run a lot quicker, and better. 

***The brushes are part #8-10 or 8-10MB from Toy Train Tender, Dr. Tinker, or George Tebolt websites***, and there may be others.


My suspicion about your motor running slow, is nothing more than worn brushes, and needing a good cleaning. Haggy38 can attest to doing a good cleaning job, and getting them running much better. There are a lot of posts on this forum, with how to rebuild motors and proper maintenance, and only have to search through some old previous posts. One other item that you might want to get, if you don't already have one, is a Dremel Rotary Tool, or something similar, and pick up the rotary wire wheels to go with it. The preferred wheel is the Stainless Steel brushes. Do Not run the wheel at a high speed though, just run it at a slow speed, as the bristles will fly everywhere at high speed. 

If you want to take a look at some motor rebuilds, search out posts on here from Tjcruiser, who has done quite a few Prewar beauties, and the same can be done on your Standard Gauge stuff. Have fun, and learn in the process.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

teledoc said:


> 400E Blue Comet,
> What you should get for cleaning up the motors, is a bottle of 90% Isopropyl Alcohol, a box of Q-tips, from a drug store, and maybe some cotton balls. All these are cheap, but well worth having around. I would also say get a sheet of 1000 grit sandpaper, or 1200 grit. Another item to have around is a spray can of contact cleaner, NOT TV Tuner spray. Some people use Denatured alcohol, but I find that it leaves a residue, and it does have a minute amount of petroleum in it, causing that residue feel, so I don't use it.
> 
> Take the brush plate off the motor, and if you do get contact cleaner, give the inner surface of the brush plate a spray, and then spray the surface of the armature, to get rid of most of the dirt/oil build up. Things will get messy real quick, but you want to get rid of all the gunk built up over the years. Pull the brushes out of the brush plate, and use a Q-tip to clean out the inside of the brush holders. If you get cotton balls, along with the Q-tips, wipe off the build up on the face of the armature. Get it as clean as you can that way first. The copper face of the armature is the next thing to attack. Check to see if it is scored from running it with old brushes. Depending on how badly it is scored, and appears to be salvageable, take a small piece of the sand paper, and sand down the surfaces, until they are as clean and shiny as you can get them. Install a new set of brushes, and re-assemble the motor. That should take care of rebuilding the motor, and it should run a lot better. Also, use the alcohol and an old rag (t-shirt, old bathroom towel cut up in small squares, etc.) and give the motor a good complete wipe down. Apply a small drop of oil at the axles, where they go through the motor, and then give it a test run. You should find it will run a lot quicker, and better.
> ...


How can I remove the brushes? I tried taking that little screw off where the wire connects to the brush tube, but that only makes the wire come off. I can't get the brushes out that way. Do I need to take the motor apart to get the brushes out? That might be a little complicated.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

A quick question, which motor do you have, the early version that looks like Haggy38 motor, or do you have the one with solid plates on both sides of the motor, which would be the "Super Motor" that was used on quite a few locos in prewar. I don't have any Standard Gauge, or the knowledge to honestly answer your question. I did do some searching on the 33 motor, and there is a website I can lead you to, if you have the later version "Super Motor". From the photos that I have seen, on the super motor version, it appears that you can take the sides apart, to access the brush tubes. I need to know which motor you have. Maybe Prewar Pappy can chime in here, with some tips.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet, 


You should post some pictures of your engine, to see what's going on......




Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gustavo,
Your frame appears to be the early 1917 version, and the motor isn't what is referred to as the Super Motor, which has two solid plates on either side of the motor. Are the brush tubes easily accessible on your frame, as far as getting to the brushes, and replacing them. I can't find a clear enough picture to see the brush tubes on either version of motor, but it sounds like it isn't hard to replace the brushes.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Gustavo,
> Your frame appears to be the early 1917 version, and the motor isn't what is referred to as the Super Motor, which has two solid plates on either side of the motor. Are the brush tubes easily accessible on your frame, as far as getting to the brushes, and replacing them. I can't find a clear enough picture to see the brush tubes on either version of motor, but it sounds like it isn't hard to replace the brushes.



Hi Doc,


Is the same type of brushes, he needs to wiggle a little bit the get it out with the springs, is not difficult. This is my engine and frame type.



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

400E Blue Comet, I sent you a private message about the brushes. Have you attempted to work on it?


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

teledoc said:


> 400E Blue Comet, I sent you a private message about the brushes. Have you attempted to work on it?


Not yet, I have some of the alcohol you mentioned to clean it but it's not 90%, it's 70%. I'm still going to need to order the brushes some time, but I don't think I'm ready yet. I'm kind of afraid if I take the motor out to get to the brushes the whole thing will far apart and I won't be able to figure out how to put it back together. It also looks like the wheels will block the sides from coming off so I can't just take the motor out, but I haven't attempted yet.

Also my motor appears to be what Gustavo has. Super motors have a label on the bottom too, right? Mine doesn't have this. Something I observe about it, it looks like it has a 5-pole armature but a 3-pole commutator. It still runs, but it's kind of strange that an old train would have a 5-pole motor while some less old Marklin Z trains have a 3-pole motor and need to be upgraded to have 5-poles.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

400E, The 70% alcohol is fine, the 90% is just more alcohol and stronger. Hopefully Gustavo can guide you through the process of taking the motor out, and taking it apart. I don't have any Standard Gauge experience, to tell you how to go about the dis-assembly of the motor. From your description, you have the exact same motor as he has re-done, so he is better to tell you how he went about tearing it apart, and rebuilding it. Standard gauge is something that I have no desire to get into, as most of my stuff is Postwar "O", and Prewar "O" tinplate. The one saving grace on those Standard Electrics is there is no linkage to deal with. I would hold off on working on your #33 for a while, until you feel confident to deal with it. 

Jerry (Teledoc)


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Not yet, I have some of the alcohol you mentioned to clean it but it's not 90%, it's 70%. I'm still going to need to order the brushes some time, but I don't think I'm ready yet. I'm kind of afraid if I take the motor out to get to the brushes the whole thing will far apart and I won't be able to figure out how to put it back together. It also looks like the wheels will block the sides from coming off so I can't just take the motor out, but I haven't attempted yet.
> 
> Also my motor appears to be what Gustavo has. Super motors have a label on the bottom too, right? Mine doesn't have this. Something I observe about it, it looks like it has a 5-pole armature but a 3-pole commutator. It still runs, but it's kind of strange that an old train would have a 5-pole motor while some less old Marklin Z trains have a 3-pole motor and need to be upgraded to have 5-poles.



Mine has 6 poles armature and 3 pole commutator. Probably the wheels you can take it out by hand and lots of pictures, the screws that hold the armature must be install the same direction, close attention because some are larger but in general is pretty easy, this trains has no E-unit just manual reverse.

My engine alone runs pretty easy on 6V, with the cars it moves nicely with 12V. In my case the total engine stripped was necessary and works now like charm.




Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I can't really count the number of poles as it's a fat motor- it looks more like an orb than it does a motor with poles. But I can make out the pole parts, and yeah, it probably is 5 or 6 poles. As for cleaning the motor, I think I'll wait until I have the brushes because a clean motor will be of little use when the brushes have been there for 100 years accumulating gunk. It sounds slightly complicated, is there some kind of video or guide to doing this? For now I'll just have to keep watching mine inch along and pushing it when needed, lol. :laugh:


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> I can't really count the number of poles as it's a fat motor- it looks more like an orb than it does a motor with poles. But I can make out the pole parts, and yeah, it probably is 5 or 6 poles. As for cleaning the motor, I think I'll wait until I have the brushes because a clean motor will be of little use when the brushes have been there for 100 years accumulating gunk. It sounds slightly complicated, is there some kind of video or guide to doing this? For now I'll just have to keep watching mine inch along and pushing it when needed, lol. :laugh:


Hi,

I think I can help you, probably the brushes of your engine just needs a little cleaning, but I need to know and see more in detail your engine, then I will walk you through step by step how I stripped my engine, regarding the wheels mine was very loose so I just need to wiggle it, if the wheels are tight you just can heated up to get them loose, the brushes holders are very easy to take it out, there's a small cap where the cable attaches with a screw, spring and brushes can be clean.....


Just post a good set of pictures of your engine and see what's going on.


Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

400E Blue Comet, get some photos posted, and you will get the needed info from Gustavo aka Haggy38. He is willing to talk you through tearing your 33 apart


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I ordered Lionel 8-10B brushes on ebay, will these work the same as the 8-10 and 8-10MB brushes? Also what's the difference?

Here are some photos:







































The problem I see with getting to the brushes is still the wheels. I don't know if I can pull them off without breaking it, and heating would be dangerous. It might damage the wheels or expand them too much so I can't get them back on without them falling off.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> I ordered Lionel 8-10B brushes on ebay, will these work the same as the 8-10 and 8-10MB brushes? Also what's the difference?
> 
> Here are some photos:
> View attachment 78362
> ...



Dont need to pull out the wheels to get this engine work properly, the brushes casing slips with a little pull, just use the screw as an anchor and with some point pliers.

Try a better picture quality for details.

Gustavo.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> Dont need to pull out the wheels to get this engine work properly, the brushes casing slips with a little pull, just use the screw as an anchor and with some point pliers.
> 
> Try a better picture quality for details.
> 
> ...


Oh, so that little tube under the screw can come out, just with some force? Thanks.
So the 8-10B brushes will work, right? I thought teledoc said it was 8-10 or 8-10B, so I ordered the 8-10B on ebay, but I came back and saw he said 8-10MB.
Should I clean the coils with that 70% isopropyl alchohol, or can I get away without doing that? How does cleaning the armature help anyway?
I would try using a better picture quality, but the only thing I can easily upload to my computer is my iPod's pictures which are poor quality.

Edit: Would it be possible to clean the coils without removing the motor? I don't think I'll be able to get the wheels off, so is it possible to clean the armature with the isopropyl alcohol while it's still in the train, or no?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Oh, so that little tube under the screw can come out, just with some force? Thanks.
> So the 8-10B brushes will work, right? I thought teledoc said it was 8-10 or 8-10B, so I ordered the 8-10B on ebay, but I came back and saw he said 8-10MB.
> Should I clean the coils with that 70% isopropyl alchohol, or can I get away without doing that? How does cleaning the armature help anyway?
> I would try using a better picture quality, but the only thing I can easily upload to my computer is my iPod's pictures which are poor quality.


Before doing something else, lets just focus on the brushes, as soon you pull them out the spring and brushes, will see whats the next step.


Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

400E blue comet, & Gustavo, Baby steps first, with the brushes!! You are in good hands.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> Before doing something else, lets just focus on the brushes, as soon you pull them out the spring and brushes, will see whats the next step.
> 
> 
> Gustavo





teledoc said:


> 400E blue comet, & Gustavo, Baby steps first, with the brushes!! You are in good hands.


Good idea, I don't want to have to pull apart the motor and clean it as it looks like that will be complicated.
But just to confirm, the 8-10B will work, right?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Good idea, I don't want to have to pull apart the motor and clean it as it looks like that will be complicated.
> But just to confirm, the 8-10B will work, right?



Im pretty sure they will work, so go ahead and take care the brushes with caution and patience.



Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> Im pretty sure they will work, so go ahead and take care the brushes with caution and patience.
> 
> 
> 
> Gustavo


I don't have them yet, they should be here in a few days.
So I can just pull the cylinder below the brush screws off?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> I don't have them yet, they should be here in a few days.
> So I can just pull the cylinder below the brush screws off?


No need to pull the cylinder, just the small cap that holds the screw then you can access the spring and brushes. 




Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I noticed something, I wiped off the commutator with toilet paper and a Q-tip, it seems to be running a lot better now. If the track was in better condition, it could probably make it all the way around. Of course the new brushes won't hurt at all.
So I unscrew the screw on the brush tube and the portion under can come out?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> I noticed something, I wiped off the commutator with toilet paper and a Q-tip, it seems to be running a lot better now. If the track was in better condition, it could probably make it all the way around. Of course the new brushes won't hurt at all.
> So I unscrew the screw on the brush tube and the portion under can come out?


Yes, it's a small cap, not the entire tube, as soon you get that you can reach the spring and the brushes. I clean up he brushes with alcohol and with 1000 sand paper get rid if all the grime and oil,grease deposits, you need to do this in both sides of the brushes, as soon you see a clear material like cooper in the brushes you are done. Remember gentle strokes side by side on the sand paper.

I bet it will improve 100%


Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> Yes, it's a small cap, not the entire tube, as soon you get that you can reach the spring and the brushes. I clean up he brushes with alcohol and with 1000 sand paper get rid if all the grime and oil,grease deposits, you need to do this in both sides of the brushes, as soon you see a clear material like cooper in the brushes you are done. Remember gentle strokes side by side on the sand paper.
> 
> I bet it will improve 100%
> 
> ...


Alright thanks. Do I still need to clean the brush tube if I put new brushes in instead of cleaning the old ones? I ordered some new ones that should get here in a couple days.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For sure you clean the brush tube before putting the brushes back in, new or old. That's how the brushes get their connection to the power!


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Okay, I got the brushes in but they didn't fit. I sanded them down so They can fit, but I broke the 1 in half. It still seems to be working though, I stretched the spring out so it fits. The second brush tube got warped though and it won't go all the way to the commutator. I found out the tubes can be pulled out and put back in, but I might need to sand the second brush some more.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Well that Marklin Good luck pig was on my side, sanding the second brush more worked. The second brush tube is still a little warped but not quite as badly. It can pull both its cars now too, but only on the power track. I think this is only because I need better Standard Gauge track, my track is old, rusty, and needs new pins. Some I had to even replace with clock pins. But thanks for the help, now I just need some better track.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you want to improve your track, try and get a "Scotchbrite" pad, the green ones, that usually come in packs of 3. You just need to do the tops of the rails, and not worry about the sides. The top of the rails is where you pick up the power to the wheels, not the sides. Go over all the tops of the rails, and when done, give it a wipe down with a small rag and alcohol, to get any grit off the rails. A substitute for the rail pins can be made from 14 gauge solid copper wire, like house wiring. Strip off insulation, and cut short pieces about 1/2-3/4" long, and wedge them into the rails that have missing pins. The most important rail is the center, pickup rail, and all those connections should be tight. If you feel any of them are loose fitting, give the connection a squeeze with pliers, to tighten them up. It should make things run better.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Remember to lube the engine with car oil 5W-20, don't use any other type because they will evaporate and leave some residue, use a small toothpick and one drop in the axels, pinions and the armature.



Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I use Labelle 107, it seems to work fine because the wheels turn very easily. It can pull both cars, but only on certain parts of the track, on other parts it just stops and buzzes so you have to push it. I've sanded the top of the track already and it looks shiny, but I'll need to use that wire in a lot of the pins or just get new track.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If I were you, I would not really use sandpaper to clean the top of the track. It gets too gritty, and takes the plating off the rails. A Scotchbrite pad works really well, but need a little elbow grease when doing it. The trick with the wire pieces will work in a pinch, until you can get real pins. The center rail is the heart of the track, and the connections need to be tight as you can make them.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Well it's not 1000 grit sand paper, I think it's 220. But a thought I had, would it be possible to use that Iso Alcohol to clean the rails? I might be able to take a Q-tip and wipe it over the track.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Yes to using the alcohol, and it is preferred, instead of using sandpaper. The 220 grit isn't terrible, but if you constantly use sandpaper it eventually destroys the plating on the rails, and makes it prone to rusting. Just use an old t-shirt, or something similar and use that with alcohol and go over the rails. The biggest thing to improve the track for running the loco, is good, tight connections, so that the resistance of the loop is as low as possible.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

You have to clean the track pins, that's very important and makes the difference, probably is not the engine but the track.





Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

What would the evidence of a burnt motor be? It runs normally on its own and can pull one car, but can't pull both cars on most parts of the track. The motor appears to have a black spot on it. It gets warm after running it, mostly with the cars.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> What would the evidence of a burnt motor be? It runs normally on its own and can pull one car, but can't pull both cars on most parts of the track. The motor appears to have a black spot on it. It gets warm after running it, mostly with the cars.



Just remember it's an old train, you need to check the commutator for continuity and resistan then you will know if the motor has bad pole, to accomplish that you need to use a multimeter, probably your father has one and can help you with that.


What type of transformer are you using(W), how large is the layout??


Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

haggy38 said:


> Just remember it's an old train, you need to check the commutator for continuity and resistan then you will know if the motor has bad pole, to accomplish that you need to use a multimeter, probably your father has one and can help you with that.
> 
> 
> What type of transformer are you using(W), how large is the layout??
> ...


I'm using a KW, the layout is just an oval. There's 2 straight tracks on the side. What resistance should a good motor display, and what resistance would a bad motor display?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> I'm using a KW, the layout is just an oval. There's 2 straight tracks on the side. What resistance should a good motor display, and what resistance would a bad motor display?


KW transformer is good enough, the resistance measurement is on the copper sides of commutator it should reads between .9 till .8 ohms, 3 ohms probably is a short.

Test each segment against the armature shaft, there should be no continuity, that is infintie resistance. 



Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I've tested each commutator segment, between each other, all of them show about .4-.6 ohms in resistance. Testing both brushes didn't show anything near 3 ohms, and none of the windings appear to have continuity between themselves and the segments or the wheels and pickup. Not even the suspicious burnt looking part. Are there any other signs of a bad motor? I tried running it upside-down and saw no arcing between the windings. I'm still unsure if the burnt part is a short or just dirty.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> I've tested each commutator segment, between each other, all of them show about .4-.6 ohms in resistance. Testing both brushes didn't show anything near 3 ohms, and none of the windings appear to have continuity between themselves and the segments or the wheels and pickup. Not even the suspicious burnt looking part. Are there any other signs of a bad motor? I tried running it upside-down and saw no arcing between the windings. I'm still unsure if the burnt part is a short or just dirty.



Did you test each segment against the armature shaft? Still running the broken brushes?




Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Which part would be the shaft? I'm running it on the new brushes, which broke a little, but I sanded them down the right size and they're working now.
The engine itself runs pretty good along the track, but it doesn't seem to have enough power to pull both cars. It can pull them on some sections of track, but I can't quite get it to pull them all the way around.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Probably the new brushes needs to break in without the cars, they must accommodate to the commutator, so start at low speed then increase at low rates to the maximum voltage for a couple of minutes, let the engine cool down and repeat the procedure.

I know it's going to sound to technical but it's important to know what's the motor amperage consumption with a variable power supply.

Another annotation is to leave the engine attention and start with the track, particularly the center pin, pay attention to that, if there's rust should be removed, don't used sand paper, instead scotchbrite pads as well the tracks, you could have a good working engine but if the tracks have high resistance(Rust,grid,etc) it won't work properly.


Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Okay, so basically I should run it more going for low speeds to high speeds? How can I measure the amperage?

I've cleaned most of the rails with the alcohol, but I think it still might need some work on the pins. They're clean, but it needs more pins that were meant to be used in track, and the holes in the rails need to be bent back into shape.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Okay, so basically I should run it more going for low speeds to high speeds? How can I measure the amperage?
> 
> I've cleaned most of the rails with the alcohol, but I think it still might need some work on the pins. They're clean, but it needs more pins that were meant to be used in track, and the holes in the rails need to be bent back into shape.



Yes, start at low speed for a couple of turns then raise the speed gradually to its maximum speed then slow down the same way for a couple of minutes, let the engine gets cold and repeat.


For the amperage you need a multimeter, here's a good tutorial

http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_Workshop/


Gustavo


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

The multimeter shows it only draws about 0.2 Amps at most on the 10A setting. Is this a short?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> The multimeter shows it only draws about 0.2 Amps at most on the 10A setting. Is this a short?


It should draws between 1 amp to 3. It's possible you post a couple of pics of your engine? I want to see the wiring.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also pictures of the track! It dosent look that bad from your first picture. If you got the multimeter check the continuity between track joints. 
Haggy, good multimeter tutorial. I forget how to use them as I only need to do it once a year, if that.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also after checking photos and rereading stuff, the wheels look clean, but I'd wipe them with alcohol to be sure. In addition the pu rollers on the tenders look dirty. Scotch Brite pad and alcohol wipe afterwards. Do the lights dim in the cars when the train slows? Got any pictures of the makeshift pins you used in the track? You can clean the holes in the track with a dreamal tool , or get a brass wire brush in the shape of a pipe cleaner and put it in a drill. That's some stuff for starters.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Observations and Questions*

So far, I have kept my comments to myself, as Standard Gauge is totally new to me. Especially considering that the #33 that both Haggy38 & 400E Blue Comet have are the same motors, dating to 1917 vintage. What I have done is searched high and low for anything I could find pertaining to this little beast. There is very little on this, and the early issues prior to 1925 of any Standard Gauge locos, especially the motors, or parts for that matter.

First for Gustavo: Are the axles smooth axles without any splines on them? From looking at the posted photos, and looking at things posted on eBay (very few), it appears that in order to tear the motor apart, you would first have to remove the wheels, (just one side, and slide the axle out of the motor). Then on the pickup contact, you would remove one screw (insulated), and then there are two screws on the top of the motor either side of the coil, that have to be removed. This should be all it takes to separate the two halves of the motor. Am I correct, with removing these parts, to pull the motor apart??

For 400E Blue Comet: What steps have you taken so far with regard to your track issue?? Have you fixed, (temporary or otherwise) the track pins issue? Are all the connections good and tight? What you should do, is take the multimeter, set it on ohms scale, the lowest scale. Have your track loop connected all the way around, and then take one (1) section apart, so that you have an open loop of track. Put one lead from the meter on one side of the loop (test center rail to center rail), and the other lead to the other side of the open loop, and get an ohm reading. Do the same thing on the inner rail to inner rail. Then do the outer rail to outer rail. Your ohm reading should be the same on all three rails. An example would be center-center reads 1.8 ohms, inner to inner should read 1.8, and outer to outer should read same as the other two. If there is any variation where one is higher than the others, your track needs to be squared away.

If your track situation appears to be in GOOD working order, than the issues are in the motor of your 33. Then you have to make a serious decision about tackling the motor. I admit there is a big difference in ages, but 6-7 years ago, I never would have even thought about trying to fix my own motors. I do really stick with "O" gauge, but the larger gauges are quite similar in nature. I have rebuilt, or rehabbed about a dozen motors in the past few years. I would take the motor apart, meaning separating both halves of the motor, so that you can address internal issues with the motor. From looking at YOUR photos, the motor still looks dirty, and could use a complete teardown and thorough cleaning. By taking the motor apart, you can get a better access to your brush tubes. The brush tubes themselves are available as a replacement part. You may have to resort to taking the motor apart, to get it running correctly. 

If you decide to attempt it, I am sure the Gustavo can help explain how to take it apart. I think I figured out what it would take to take the two halves apart, with my questions directed at him. Hopefully he can tell me if I am correct. There just isn't enough Standard Gauge material for repair, or even certain parts available. I hope to see a reply from both of you.

Jerry


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

First for Gustavo: Are the axles smooth axles without any splines on them? From looking at the posted photos, and looking at things posted on eBay (very few), it appears that in order to tear the motor apart, you would first have to remove the wheels, (just one side, and slide the axle out of the motor). Then on the pickup contact, you would remove one screw (insulated), and then there are two screws on the top of the motor either side of the coil, that have to be removed. This should be all it takes to separate the two halves of the motor. Am I correct, with removing these parts, to pull the motor apart??


In my 33 engine the axels are smooth, no splines. In order to take the motor apart, yes you have to remove the wheels. In my case the armature plate is attached by rivets against the frame, the armature shaft is hold by a small pinion which in my case didn't remove it.

Each frames are hold by 4 large screws, as soon they been remove you can separate in 2 parts as the picture, the plate Im referring holds the brushes tubes.

The late models adapt the screws to remove completely the armature.

Gustavo


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## Eddieonmtf (Jan 21, 2014)

I have appreciated these comments from the start. Trains are a bit of a solitary hobby and each of us varies on our own capabilities and comfort levels. When you het frustrated and flustered just think, you could be me, i am visually impaired, so i try to figure stuff out be feeling a lot of stuff, i don't have anyone handy to ask about this and i obviously do not drive so I can't get to a hobby shop every time i need to ask or for help... but then you guy were discussing the difference of 90%, 70% alcohol... I sometimes use yet another type of alcohol when I just want to ball up the whole pile and cry... ha ha but I don't destroy my old stuff... I have a large collection of Prewar, mostly Standard, but I will set fire to a plastic o scale and create my own disaster! ha ha keep at it, you will eventually figure it out... at least i tell myself that!


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