# Transformer wattage and train performance?



## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

Good evening all,
I am reviving some old trains, (300AC and 283). I have had them both running on track that I have not yet done ANY maintenance on. I currently only have 1 set of accessories, a set of track switches, and I also have a few cars that I would like to put new bulbs in. The engines did all right after warming up for a few minutes. I found my trains (with a 50 Watt transformer) would slow down when activating the switches, and needed a push occasionally. My question is, would I likely see higher performance out of my engines with a 130 Watt transformer, all else being equal? I have an oppurtunity to buy a 19b. I know I should clean my track, it has all been sitting for 50+ years, some is rusty. I am still trying to figure out which method I want to use on that. But am I likely to see better performance out of a more powerful transformer? I have 4 50 Watt units, so next time I run, I will put accessories on one, and train(s) on other(s) to try and lessen the load. Just trying to figure out if an investment in a 19b transformer will translate into better running quality. Thanks in advance!
TimmyD


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## Sagas (Dec 13, 2013)

More power doesn't necessarily translate to better performance. Cleaning the metal power pickup wheels and relubrication of the engines should help. Track cleaning can be a chore, especially the pins for better contact. So depending on how badly they are rusted and time you wish to dedicate to refurbishing them you might consider looking for better used ones that only require a light cleaning. If your layout is rather large you may want to put another track connection on the opposite side to help minimize power drop. Generally a 100 watt transformer will operate an average train and power a few accessories. Your have the right idea to power the switches on a separate transformer but they may also need attention for cleaning and lubrication as well to operate smoothly. Also dedicated transformers to power accessories allow more power for ones that are operating the trains. As far as the 19B is concerned, if the price is reasonable and it is in good working condition It would make sense to acquire it if you intend to expand your collection in the future. For example passenger trains with illuminated cars and some freight action cars that will require more power.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Your engines should be serviced before any serious run time. Smoke fluid should be introduced into the smoke unit on the 283 before running as you may burn out the element..I always offer my friends here a free service for their engines, just pay shipping both ways..The 300AC Atlantic is a entry level engine, whereas the 283 has smoke, choo choo, and head-light, along with Pul-Mor tires, it will pull a long string of cars..You already know about cleaning the track, you should service your engines as well.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Real rusty track I would not try to clean up. And really just the top of the rails need to be clean.
Also clean the area that a power clip- on is used. I clean my track with a green scotch-brite pad.
Do the track pins also.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

Thanks Sagas,
I think most of my track is salvagable with a few exceptions. Good to know that wattage won't really help performance per se. I have cleaned and lubed all of the drive parts, motors, and reversing units prior to running. I just used 3in1 oil and some bicycle grease, but did give them attention. Also cleaned my drive wheels. I don't currently intend to ever have a layout, hoping to pull this set out and set up in the living room with interested kids when they are around. The next time I run it I will use additional pickups every so often on my track. Thanks! TimmyD


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

flyernut said:


> Your engines should be serviced before any serious run time. Smoke fluid should be introduced into the smoke unit on the 283 before running as you may burn out the element..I always offer my friends here a free service for their engines, just pay shipping both ways..The 300AC Atlantic is a entry level engine, whereas the 283 has smoke, choo choo, and head-light, along with Pul-Mor tires, it will pull a long string of cars..You already know about cleaning the track, you should service your engines as well.


Thanks flyernut, I did lube up all the drive components and armatures before running, as well as cleaning the pickup wheels and lubing the choo choo unit.. I don't have any smoke fluid, and wasn't planning on using any when i run as the wifey only likes smoke in the house when she is cooking.  Should I disconnect it somehow so I don't damage it? Thanks, TimmyD


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

mopac said:


> Real rusty track I would not try to clean up. And really just the top of the rails need to be clean.
> Also clean the area that a power clip- on is used. I clean my track with a green scotch-brite pad.
> Do the track pins also.


Thanks Mopac,
I have looked into track cleaning a little, though I want to see what information is on this site. I was under the impression that only the top rail and pins needed cleaning (and power clips), which I had neglected to think about). I had thought that a scotchbrite pad may scuff them more than desired? I have seen a vinegar soak, but was worried about my cardboard insulators degrading. My current plan was going to be googone on a clean soft rag, followed by isopryl alcohol on a clean soft rag. Again, I have more research to do, but what I have read so far it seems that gives a pretty good bang for the buck and time invested.
Thanks,
TimmyD


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## alaft61ri (Oct 11, 2019)

I reviewed my track better short version I used 18 gauge for track and soldered wire on track then I did separate terminals for each post on Transformer my layout is 5 feet by 15 feet I run 3 engine I think amflyer gave me the I dear it was worth the trouble lot of work but worth it.
Al


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

alaft61ri said:


> I reviewed my track better short version I used 18 gauge for track and soldered wire on track then I did separate terminals for each post on Transformer my layout is 5 feet by 15 feet I run 3 engine I think amflyer gave me the I dear it was worth the trouble lot of work but worth it.
> Al


Thanks alaft,I am intending to keep my set as a set up to run, then break down and pack up, not intending to create an acutal layout so I think the track soldering is not a direction I will go, though I am sure that it is a fantastic addition to a permanent layout! TimmyD


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

TimmyD said:


> Thanks Mopac,
> I have looked into track cleaning a little, though I want to see what information is on this site. I was under the impression that only the top rail and pins needed cleaning (and power clips), which I had neglected to think about). I had thought that a scotchbrite pad may scuff them more than desired? I have seen a vinegar soak, but was worried about my cardboard insulators degrading. My current plan was going to be googone on a clean soft rag, followed by isopryl alcohol on a clean soft rag. Again, I have more research to do, but what I have read so far it seems that gives a pretty good bang for the buck and time invested.
> Thanks,
> TimmyD


GooGone and alcohol work, but I would only use it on dirty,(oily,gummy track), than rusty track. MOPAC is correct, use a green or red scotch-brite pad, it works very well. Also, a "bright-boy" works very well.Sand-paper is a no-no, as well as steel wool!! As far as the smoke unit, you can clip 1 wire from the unit using a pair of side-cutters, but you may lose your head-light. If wifey doesn't like the smoke, use a scented fluid, they just might make a bacon-flavored scent,lol.. I have peppermint and black licorice, my favorite.,If you can, pick up a 307 Atlantic, no smoke in that version.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

TimmyD said:


> Thanks alaft,I am intending to keep my set as a set up to run, then break down and pack up, not intending to create an acutal layout so I think the track soldering is not a direction I will go, though I am sure that it is a fantastic addition to a permanent layout! TimmyD


If you don't like the idea of soldering, just pick up some track clip-ons. Lionel makes new ones for American flyer. Place them about every 4 feet or so.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

TimmyD said:


> ...Good to know that wattage won't really help performance per se...


Wattage won't help performance *at all.* Voltage is the key to performance, the higher the voltage the faster the engine will run. The detriment to good performance is electrical resistance; rusty track, dirty wheels and pickups and mechanical resistance; dry gears and axles. Clean track, wheels, and pickups reduce electrical resistance, lubricated gears and axles reduce mechanical resistance.

Wattage (which is volts x amps) dictates how much equipment you can run at the same time. Higher wattage allows for more engines and accessories to be run simultaneously.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

flyernut said:


> If you don't like the idea of soldering, just pick up some track clip-ons. Lionel makes new ones for American flyer. Place them about every 4 feet or so.


Ah! I misunderstood! I thought you were soldering each track piece to each subsiquent track piece with wire (basically making a better connection than the pins) from section to section. I think soldering pickups on the underside of a few track pieces to be dispersed throughout the 'layout of the day' is a great idea! I do have 3 pickups currently, but am hoping the next time I set up to run both engines concurrently on their own interspersed tracks, so having the additional pickups would be very helpful. Thanks! TimmyD


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

TimmyD, starting with your opening post it seems to say that the 300AC and the 283 were running at the same time using one 50W transformer. If so they, along with two illuminated cars will draw 3.5A. If the transformer output voltage is set for 12V then the wattage supplied is 42W, above the continuous capability of a 50W postwar transformer. The 50W rating is input power from the 120V receptacle. A postwar transformer is a little above 70% efficient so the output wattage rating is only 35 to 37W. A transformer can intermittently supply 25% to 50% above its rating until its breaker trips. When the transformer does this it gets hot plus the internal impedance of the transformer causes the output voltage to sag, slowing down the engines. This is why the engine momentarily slows down when the track switch is thrown.
Your 50W transformer is overloaded, I recommend you use at least a 100W transformer and power the track switches from a separate transformer. When I was using Gilbert transformers I used a 19B for each track loop and a 4B to power all the turnouts.
The first thing to check is the 690 track terminal. Brighten the track flanges with a bright boy and bend the spring clip so it attaches firmly. I have seen over a 1V drop at poorly attached 690's. It is also very common to see a high voltage drop across turnouts. This is because the internal sliding brass contacts oxidize. Take off the bottom plates and clean the brass wipers and contacts. A 5'x15' layout should run just fine with two track clips if everything is clean.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

To eliminate any future oxidation and to have the best connections possible I recommend using a very small amount of electrically conductive grease on all the track pins, 690 track clips and the internal turnout contacts after cleaning everything. Below is a picture of what I use. There are many different brands, I got this at the local hardware store. I have been using this for over 25 years, it has eliminated all contact oxidation, no more train slowing issues.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

If a permanent layout is in construction. like Al's who posted above, or like mine then soldering all the track connections is the right way to get flawless permanent electrical connections. For a temporary layout it is ok but not essential.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

AmFlyer said:


> TimmyD, starting with your opening post it seems to say that the 300AC and the 283 were running at the same time using one 50W transformer. If so they, along with two illuminated cars will draw 3.5A. If the transformer output voltage is set for 12V then the wattage supplied is 42W, above the continuous capability of a 50W postwar transformer. The 50W rating is input power from the 120V receptacle. A postwar transformer is a little above 70% efficient so the output wattage rating is only 35 to 37W. A transformer can intermittently supply 25% to 50% above its rating until its breaker trips. When the transformer does this it gets hot plus the internal impedance of the transformer causes the output voltage to sag, slowing down the engines. This is why the engine momentarily slows down when the track switch is thrown.
> Your 50W transformer is overloaded, I recommend you use at least a 100W transformer and power the track switches from a separate transformer. When I was using Gilbert transformers I used a 19B for each track loop and a 4B to power all the turnouts.
> The first thing to check is the 690 track terminal. Brighten the track flanges with a bright boy and bend the spring clip so it attaches firmly. I have seen over a 1V drop at poorly attached 690's. It is also very common to see a high voltage drop across turnouts. This is because the internal sliding brass contacts oxidize. Take off the bottom plates and clean the brass wipers and contacts. A 5'x15' layout should run just fine with two track clips if everything is clean.


Thanks Tom!
All appreciated. I was not running both engines simultaneously with a 50W transformer, but they were both exhibiting similar issues when run individually. It seems my first goal is to brighten my track and assess pin connections, as well as add a few pickups relatively evenly spaced around the track. If I run two engines simultaneously, they will be on separate loops with separate 50W transformers, and I will put switches on a dedicated 50W transformer... Will likely try and pick up the 19b anyway since i seem to be wanting to add capability already, and could use the room to grow...  I can also check voltage drop at points along the track to find local rough spots. 
Thanks again! TimmyD


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The scotch-brite pads will not hurt your track. Just watch the pressure you put on the pads
and move on. Clean your tender metal wheels. I use a brass cleaner on mine. And clean the
axle wiper on the tender. You do all that and lubricate the engine they will run better. There
are other things that can help, like reface the armature, new springs and brushes. We can get into that later. I don't know your skill level with Flyers.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

TimmyD said:


> Thanks Tom!
> All appreciated. I was not running both engines simultaneously with a 50W transformer, but they were both exhibiting similar issues when run individually. It seems my first goal is to brighten my track and assess pin connections, as well as add a few pickups relatively evenly spaced around the track. If I run two engines simultaneously, they will be on separate loops with separate 50W transformers, and I will put switches on a dedicated 50W transformer... Will likely try and pick up the 19b anyway since i seem to be wanting to add capability already, and could use the room to grow...  I can also check voltage drop at points along the track to find local rough spots.
> Thanks again! TimmyD


Get a Lionel post-war ZW.. I have 3 of them, and a baby brother to them, a VW..Just can't beat them for power to the tracks, and to accessories. You can run 1,2,3,or 4 engines on separate loops, or any combination.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I pull the 4 tender wheels, and using a scotch-brite pad, polish the metal pick-up wheels..Using the same pad, I polish the axles where the copper pick-up strips ride on. I then use a dremel tool with a small sanding disc, around 400 grit, and polish the copper strips where they ride on the axles. As long as you have it down this far, check all your insulating bushings and solder points, (if your trains are running, they shouldn't be at fault).Slow running can almost always be attributed to hardened grease in the gear box, lack of oil, and cleanliness on moving parts. Of course, replace the brushes and brush springs, they're probably still original..And don't forget the check the white insulators for looseness, etc..You have 2 nice engines and they're both easy to work on and service. The 283 can be a handful because of the direct wiring, and the 300 can also be frustrating because of all the wiring in the boiler, but once you get the hang of these 2 engines, there's nothing in the line of flyer steam engines you can't fix.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

flyernut said:


> I pull the 4 tender wheels, and using a scotch-brite pad, polish the metal pick-up wheels..Using the same pad, I polish the axles where the copper pick-up strips ride on. I then use a dremel tool with a small sanding disc, around 400 grit, and polish the copper strips where they ride on the axles. As long as you have it down this far, check all your insulating bushings and solder points, (if your trains are running, they shouldn't be at fault).Slow running can almost always be attributed to hardened grease in the gear box, lack of oil, and cleanliness on moving parts. Of course, replace the brushes and brush springs, they're probably still original..And don't forget the check the white insulators for looseness, etc..You have 2 nice engines and they're both easy to work on and service. The 283 can be a handful because of the direct wiring, and the 300 can also be frustrating because of all the wiring in the boiler, but once you get the hang of these 2 engines, there's nothing in the line of flyer steam engines you can't fix.


Thanks Flyernut! I have taken them both all the way down to oil the armature bearings, clean and grease the worm and drive gear, clean the armature, and inspect the brushes. The brushes I am sure are original, but looked pretty good to me. I have 1 bent spring in the 300 AC, but it seems to be working all right... I have cleaned the pick-up wheels with lighter fluid, and the axles, thought i should actually remove the axles and scuff the copper as you suggested. I found a bad solder joint inside the tender at the rear truck on the 283 and repaired that, I thought that solder job would be more difficult due to the mass of the truck, but it went well. I do have a touchy connection on the bullet connector leaving the tender on the 300AC, going to fix that tomorrow, and then set up a simple loop around the Christmas tree to exercise both engines. I guess that will give me a chance to do some track cleaning and see how much of a difference that makes. Also going to pick up some Ox-Gaurd. Funny, I was just talking to my neighbor whom has aluminum in his walls for his 15A circuits, and he was telling me what a process it is to work on. Oxidation inhibitor came up! 
Question on the smoke unit, were you suggesting that something like an essential oil would be better than nothing to keep from burning out the smoke element? Is there a homemade smoke fluid substitute I could use? I really do appreciate all of the help, I unfortunately have not taken the time to search the forum yet, I am sure most of these topics are covered elsewhere, but I really appreciate the welcoming nature of this forum!
Grateful to all of you offering candor and guidance.
TimmyD
P.S. I will try and get a few pics of my gear up soon...


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I believe most of us here use J.T.'s Mega-Steam for our smoke fluid needs. I don't know about the essential oils stuff. Try to find it locally as shipping will add $6 dollars or more to your purchase..There are 2 sources most of us use for parts; Jeff Kane at the Train Tender, and Doug Peck at PortLines Hobby Supplies.. I use Jeff Kane as he's only about a 20 minute drive from me, and I get my parts the next day. Plus he ships on the honor system, he ships before he gets paid. He also sells certain parts in bulk such as screws, brushes, springs, etc.Also, most of us, if not all, use the PortLines wiring diagram for our locos, easy to follow....If you can't find smoke fluid locally, let me know, and I'll pick some up for you..


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I follow all scales on this forum. Because I have all scales. Except standard gauge. There is always someone trying to use something other than smoke fluid. I usually tell them "don't try to reinvent the wheel". Get the real stuff. Using the wrong fluid will gum up your smoke unit and hasten a smoke unit rebuild. When I was 5 years old my dad used 3 in 1 oil down my Flyer smoke stack. We did get smoke, but a few years ago I rebuilt that smoke unit.
That was the nastiest smoke unit I ever saw. Your trains do what you want but I suggest going to a local hobby shop and buying real smoke fluid. It will cost you 6 to 7 dollars. Any fluid they have will be fine. My shops around here have Lionel fluid. Works fine. Most are unscented, your wife will like it. Have fun.

Oh, and I suggest new springs and brushes. I was like you when I started working on Flyers.
Bending a spring back in shape, stretching them, Looks fine. They need correct tension.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

flyernut said:


> I believe most of us here use J.T.'s Mega-Steam for our smoke fluid needs. I don't know about the essential oils stuff. Try to find it locally as shipping will add $6 dollars or more to your purchase..There are 2 sources most of us use for parts; Jeff Kane at the Train Tender, and Doug Peck at PortLines Hobby Supplies.. I use Jeff Kane as he's only about a 20 minute drive from me, and I get my parts the next day. Plus he ships on the honor system, he ships before he gets paid. He also sells certain parts in bulk such as screws, brushes, springs, etc.Also, most of us, if not all, use the PortLines wiring diagram for our locos, easy to follow....If you can't find smoke fluid locally, let me know, and I'll pick some up for you..


Thanks Flyernut! I should be able to find smoke fluid locally, Denver has a few hobby supply stores. I have been to one train shop, but it had very little AF stuff (1 engine, 3 cars), and I am not sure if it is still in business either. Those resources look great, I will hit them up as I need parts. Much appreciated! I just put a loop of track around the tree for the little one, pulling a couple passenger cars. Have a wonderful day,
TimmyD


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

mopac said:


> I follow all scales on this forum. Because I have all scales. Except standard gauge. There is always someone trying to use something other than smoke fluid. I usually tell them "don't try to reinvent the wheel". Get the real stuff. Using the wrong fluid will gum up your smoke unit and hasten a smoke unit rebuild. When I was 5 years old my dad used 3 in 1 oil down my Flyer smoke stack. We did get smoke, but a few years ago I rebuilt that smoke unit.
> That was the nastiest smoke unit I ever saw. Your trains do what you want but I suggest going to a local hobby shop and buying real smoke fluid. It will cost you 6 to 7 dollars. Any fluid they have will be fine. My shops around here have Lionel fluid. Works fine. Most are unscented, your wife will like it. Have fun.
> 
> Oh, and I suggest new springs and brushes. I was like you when I started working on Flyers.
> Bending a spring back in shape, stretching them, Looks fine. They need correct tension.


Agreed on all fronts MOPAC. I hadn't realized that running a smoke unit without smoke was not advised, so I will pick up some smoke fluid, I will likely just not run that engine as often if wifey takes issue with the smoke.  Also, I have some springs on order, should be here before Christmas. Take care! TimmyD


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