# height between staging and main layout



## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Can anyone tell me if there is a set height I should keep between the lower staging area and the main layout? Also any tricks on going down and back up to and from areas without building a helix?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

How long of a run do you have to get from stagging up to the main level?
Are the two going to be stacked on top each other or stair stepped?


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm going to have 2 28 inch x 8 foot modules in a L shape in the corner. I have 8 feet off of one side to another module at layout height and around 6feet on the other end to drop into staging area. Main layout will be over top these 2 sections along with the rest of the regular layout. Staging level is 37 1/4 inches high and other table is 40 inches but was thinking of raising it to 44 inches due to running intermodal cars.


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

2 more pics.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

OK, in order to get from level of 37.25" to the level of 44" which is 6.75" of rise you will need a run of 220" at 3% or a run of 170" at 4%.
Rise of 6.75" @ 3% = 220" or 18' 4" of run
Rise of 6.75" @ 4% = 170" or 14' 2" of run
So with out a helix you would have to do a long ramp to get to the next level.


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Will I need the same distance to drop down to the staging area as well? With a helix is it possible to switch in and out at the 2 different levels?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Are you going from one level to the next, so 2 levels or is there 3 levels?
I was thinking it's 2, staging and main? Do I have that right?


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes 2 levels, staging and main. My plan is 2 main lines on main layout with both able to drop into and come out of staging area on opposing ends. But I think going that route I will need to switch off right away and then have a switch close by to start the climb again to the main line? Will I need a gradual drop into staging area or is that not as much of an issue? Going to mock up my main area over top my staging tables to see what it will look like. I have a 6 foot area that I will be able if needed to build a helix but not sure if I can exit and enter in different spots on a helix and if I would then need 2 helix's?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

First lets get a blue print / floor plan of your layout space.
Do you have anything drawn up yet?


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

I have a plan that some people here helped redesign under 1st room layout in the design layout forum. For the life of me I cannot figure how to paste the reworked design you drew up from that thread. It was on page 3 of that thread.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I've got staging in my layout if you're looking for ideas (and a helix too.) Build thread in my sig....


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

I've looked at your layout dozens of times Scott, and it always impresses.:thumbsup: My carpentry skills are lacking as you can see in pics, so kinda the reason I'd like to avoid a helix until further into the layout.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

TRN,

Take a look at the helix in this post. Reasonably simple carpentry work ... geometry of the actual helix made easy with a few "columns" of threaded rod, nuts, etc. ...

(The middle pic in the post is the helix that "feeds" the 3rd pic in the post.)

TJ

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=128684&postcount=53


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks for the link to that thread TJ.


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## Kilian (Feb 27, 2012)

I'd love to do a helix. But I think it'd frustrate me more than excite me!


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

So Scott, to do a 26 and 28" helix I would need a 60 x 60" area or would it need to be larger?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

28" radius would be 56" diameter at the track centerline, so 60" square would be fine. You'd probably want more than 2" clearance track to track. I wouldn't go below 2.5" personally. But 28" outer track radius and 25.5" inner track radius should work just fine.

If you want 2 tracks wide, I'd make the roadbed 6.5" wide. Long cars like passenger cars, car carriers hang over quite a bit at the mid-point of the car on the inside of the radius. With 6.5" wide sub-roadbed you can have 2" outboard of each track clearance. Should be plenty and would put you right at 60" diameter

Sub-roadbed plywood would be cut at 30" outer radius and 24" inner radius.

The trick on the helix is that a 1x4 laid on it's side (3.5" dimension) works PERFECTLY for the spacing between layers, so you don't have to be exact with your cuts to set a smooth grade. This was my first one and it was surprisingly easy. Set the grade on the bottom layer. You want to gain 4" per revolution (3.5" clearance + 0.5" plyboard)

Pick a spot on the curve to call zero and add 1" in elevation for every 90 degrees around the circle. Once you've got the bottom grade set just use the 1x4's to continue the grade up as high as you want to go. Minimize joints within the helix as much as possible (I spent the money on a couple extra 4x8 sheets of 0.5" plyboard to have the large pieces to work with rather than splice together a ton of small arcs.) Have the 1x4 span the joints in the plyboard.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit.....It's almost 3am and I've been drinking.....


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> It's almost 3am and I've been drinking.....


And your giving RRing advice!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

At least I couldn't get pulled over for drinking and typing  Oh my head.


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Ok thanks Scott. I'm going to have to decide whether a staging is worth it or just run a normal layout with staging as a large yard instead. The way I have my lower staging area planned is an L shaped in the corner on 2 foot x 8 foot benches. I was looking at it and thinking I will need 2 helixes, 1 to drop down and the other to come up. I have the room for them just not sure I want to commit that much real estate for them. We've got a train show in April here so I want to see one up close, just because pictures only help so much, I need to actually see it so it makes sense in my head.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

Youtube has lots of videos on helix construction as well.

I will be attempting one very soon, all thanks to scott and his awesome advice and design. To be honest i probably wouldnt have thought of building a helix if it wasnt for scott, he makes it all seem like a walk in the park  great confidence booster
Once i get a my layout thread started shortly i will share what i have learned so far. I will be sure to share pictures/videos via droid of layout build


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

trnfn69 said:


> Ok thanks Scott. I'm going to have to decide whether a staging is worth it or just run a normal layout with staging as a large yard instead. The way I have my lower staging area planned is an L shaped in the corner on 2 foot x 8 foot benches. I was looking at it and thinking I will need 2 helixes, 1 to drop down and the other to come up. I have the room for them just not sure I want to commit that much real estate for them. We've got a train show in April here so I want to see one up close, just because pictures only help so much, I need to actually see it so it makes sense in my head.


Let me know if you want any close-up pics of my helix.


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

So just for s***s and giggles I went on ashlin designs website and they have a 26 and 28" double track helix kit, but the spacing between tracks looks like it wouldn't allow for autoracks or intermodeal cars to pass each other. So Scott, on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, how many 90' corners could I make roughly drawn out with trammel points? Would I be ok with a 26" inside track and 28" outside for autoracks if I made 2.5 inches between tracks?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Scott, 
I've see your work, your advice is going to be good even if your drinking! And Yes drinking and typing is a lot safer that driving...Unless to type to the wrong parties!


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

NIMT said:


> First lets get a blue print / floor plan of your layout space.
> Do you have anything drawn up yet?


Hey Sean, 

You make it sound like he needs an architect, a structural engineer, and a stamped set of plans! :laugh:

In Carl Arndt's Small Layout Scrapbook it shows how to build and use "train cassettes". They're handled trays that you atach to an open ended siding on your layout and simply drive your trains onto the layout. when you're done, you drive them back onto the cassette, unattach it from the layout and put in a storage capinet or on a shelf.

Just for an example. this is a Peco Loco Lift...










You could make longer cassettes to dispense more cars. 

Greg


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

trnfn69 said:


> So just for s***s and giggles I went on ashlin designs website and they have a 26 and 28" double track helix kit, but the spacing between tracks looks like it wouldn't allow for autoracks or intermodeal cars to pass each other. So Scott, on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, how many 90' corners could I make roughly drawn out with trammel points? Would I be ok with a 26" inside track and 28" outside for autoracks if I made 2.5 inches between tracks?


You really want the tracks to be perfectly parallel (they are nested circles.) so if you want 2.5" between the tracks it would need to be either 26/28.5 or 25.5/28. Use flextrack and you can make any radius you want.

What I did was try to get the largest solid run of subroadbed out of the 4x8 plyboard in (1) piece. Drawing it out on a 4x8 sheet you can get (1) large ~270 degree sweep piece and then numerous smaller pieces. Rather than have tons of splices I just bought enough sheets so that I could simply splice together numerous 270 degree pieces. I think I ended up using (4) total for my helix. I just used the rest of the plyboard elsewhere in my layout (had tons of other uses for it.)

IMO The fewer splices the better and it was worth it to me to spend just a little more for the plyboard to simplify the construction.


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Was that a statement or question Scott about the tracks being parallel? I'm probably over thinking the helixes to much and once I start they might make sense. Here's hoping. Here's a couple pics of my first couple of modules, keep in mind they are not complete just mocked up, 1 foot space between the top of the bottom staging and top of the main layout. I have a little over 5.5 feet on the right of the modules and 71" to the left to build the 2 helixes if I stay with this plan.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

It was a statement - You can't have 26" inner radius and 28" outer radius with 2.5" track spacing. 

Think of it like a circle rather than a radius because that's what a helix is, basically coiled up circles. If you have parallel curves (26"/28") with a common centerpoint, the spacing between them would have to be 2". The only way to modify the track spacing is by changing the radii of the track itself. Because if you try to put a 26" curve inside a 28" curve w/2.5" spacing, it will be 2.5" on one side of the helix and down to 1.5" on the other.

Change either the inner or outer radius to get your 2.5" spacing. Bigger is better.


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## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

i will be doing a helix, approx the same radius as you trnfn69.

i have a outside loop of 28 and i have to get my helix to start in the middle of it, but im thinking once i gain enough height i can offset my helix just a tad to get the bigger radius so my grade percentage drops alittle bit.

But im only using one helix with a wye on the top level to turn trains around/or atleast the loco and use the same helix for the descend down.

Good to see someone else going after a helix...

Scott has good info on a helix or layouts in general, so you are in good hands with his knowledge


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

trn...I am just curious why your staging area has to be lower than the main layout? I can see if one had an upper and lower level (right above the other), then you would definitely need a helix, especially if limited on space. If you are going to incorporate a helix, why not put the staging level directly below the main layout and save space? If the staging area is going to be apart from the main layout, then why not put it at the same height? I respect the fact that you maybe just simply prefer them to be at different heights. This is not a criticism, I am just curious is all. It is quite possible that I have missed something you are intending to do...I looked things over rather quickly. I wish you the best of luck in anything you decide!

Chad


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Mr X, the staging area/ storage yard is going to be underneath my main area, only for 2 sections though. The first 2 sections I have are in an L shape in the corner which will leave me room for a helix on each side to drop down to and back up to each area. One of the reason's is to work on my track laying, wiring and other skills before I move on to the main layout to see what will work best for me, especially which brand of switches I will go with,etc. Might not be conventional, but it's what I think will work for me. Kind of why I'm asking questions to see what's been tried and worked or to stay away from doing.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

trn...ok, I got it now...thanks! Yea, if you can pull off two helix's, I would think your track-laying, wiring, and construction skills would be top-notch! I admire the ambition to challenge oneself! It certainly won't get boring for you! Should be a challenge to build, and fun to run! I look forward to any updates on your progress! Thanks!

Chad


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