# New Guy Here...Will probably have LOTS of questions!!



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

So I'm completely new to this hobby. Although I did help my dad setup a great layout back in '83/'84 ( I was about 10), but had to move before we got to do the scenery. Here's a layout I found that should work with the space I have. I believe it was originally an O gauge layout, note the 16% grade. I flipped it and stretched it out a bit. The red squares are 1' increments. I know I need to build the table, but not sure what the best way about doing that would be. I'm thinking I want to go the cookie cutter route, that's what my dad did with his table as well for different elevations. After a bit of reading, it seems DCC is the way to go these days. Also will most likely use the 83 code flex track on a cork ballast. But have no clue on where to start with the wiring of the track. Not even sure if that layout is possible with HO. So any tips, suggestions or do's and don'ts would be appreciated. Also any good deals on track would be helpful as I'm starting from scratch. I can see this will probably take a long while due to funding and free time.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm personally an O-scale guy, but I can't imagine why this layout wouldn't be possible in HO. Note that at 16% grade is probably way over the top in any scale. I've seen 5-6% grades in logging and mining scenes, but those were pretty extreme.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

That would be a very attractive HO layout. However, if the red
squares indicate 1 foot, it appears that some of your tighter
curves are not going to work well. With as much area as you
have to work with try to have 22" radius or more for your curves.

Wiring for DCC is not that complicated...basically the entire
track is one always live circuit. However, on a large layout such as yours,
many like to create isolated blocks to make tracing
electrical problems easier.

There is at least one reverse loop in your design. This will
require a reverse loop controller. It is an automatic device
that senses that a locomotive is present and matches
polarity in an isolated section of track with the main line.
A reverse loop exists when a train on a single track can go
around and come back in the opposite direction onto the same
single track. This creates an electrical short circuit and require
isolated sections.

Do plan to have a walk around DCC controller (wired or wireless)
in addition to your main controller. With that you can be where
you train is anywhere on the layout.

Most Ho modellers recommend no more than 2% grade.

By all means shop around for all of your layout needs. The prices
on track, turnouts, locomotives and other gear vary widely. Amazon
and Ebay are good places to research. And you can find some
amazing values in the used market here on the Forum and
on Craigslist 'Collectibles' and 'Toys and games' categories.

The most recommended brands of DCC are NCE and Digitrax
tho I personally have Bachmann. It is more economical but
does not have the features of NCE and Digitrax.

You'll find both Atlas and Peco flex track is right for cork roadbed.
I like Peco INSULFROG turnouts...they are DCC compatible and you don't
have derails on them. They are available in code 83.

As you continue to design your layout by all means ask 
all of the questions that come to mind.

Don


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks for the replies guys! After reading your post Don, I'm wondering if this layout may be too much for a beginner to tackle. Was not even aware there was a reverse loop in the layout. I just thought it looked cool and would possibly fit my area. I don't think I want the walk around DCC controller, I like the idea of a centralized control spot. I've already decided to go with the Digitrax Zephyr. I like the rotary throttle control.

I'm thinking I may need to find a magazine with a step by step layout plan, mainly for the cookie cutter table and help with the wiring. Any suggestions on magazines to check out?


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Check out the Model Railroader website - there are literally hundreds of track plans of all different shapes sizes and scales on there.


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

16% grade is a complete non-starter - but there's no need for any grades in those places marked on the diagram so really not an issue.

The BIG problem here is that this is simply not going to work if that is a 1' grid. The curves in the end loops work out to about 2 feet diameter, which is roughly a 12" radius. That's not going to work at all for HO trains. 

HO train sets come with 18" radius track, and that's considered tight. Smaller engines and 40-50' cars work fine, but larger equipment can have issues even on 18-22" track. Nothing is going to work well on 12" radius.

Also note there's at least 3 places that create reversing sections that need to be specially handled. Not necessarily a problem, but you need to be aware of them and properly identify and isolate them or your layout will be one large electrical short circuit.


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

The size pictured above can only be an N scale layout.


----------



## markgrecco (May 27, 2013)

If you want to go with a large layout like that try to break it into phases so at least when you get phase 1 done you can start running while you continue to work. My layout is about 40 turnouts as well and time and funds are also my biggest issue at this point. I broke mine down to 5 phases but I built the complete table and did all the roadbed. I did the roadbed completely so I could spray paint it grey before any track was down. Now I'm still building phase 1 of the track. I won't do ballast or scenery until all the track is done.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

Mark


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

cv_acr said:


> 16% grade is a complete non-starter - but there's no need for any grades in those places marked on the diagram so really not an issue.
> 
> The BIG problem here is that this is simply not going to work if that is a 1' grid. The curves in the end loops work out to about 2 feet diameter, which is roughly a 12" radius. That's not going to work at all for HO trains.
> 
> ...



Back to the drawing board it seems...lol


----------



## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

That layout is out of a book I have (will try to post the book name tonight).
The one steep grade is for down hill only, as explained in the book but should be only about 4.5%. Also if I remember correctly the squares are 18" or 24" not 12".

I really like this layout and have considered it but didn't have room for it. I think I have the layout in 3Dplanit. My recall is that the tightest radius is 18".

This layout does have a couple of 'reversing loops' so must have isolated sections (even for DC) and need auto-reverse modules for DCC.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jeff

If you like that layout do as the guys have suggested...take it
one step at a time. Make changes that will give you the
wide radius curves and possibly cut down on some of the
sidings, TEMPORARILY. The layout has everything that makes a
model railroad fun...continuous running as well as extensive
switching. Equally important, it provides lots of fun in putting
it all together. 

Maybe I'm too much a newbie, but I don't know the 'cookie cutter'
bench work...is that where you construct an open frame that basically
is designed for the path of the tracks? 

I'd say, if you are planning a level layout, you would find it
easier to build a 'table'. I did mine as a series of 'modules'
bolted together. It can be taken apart and rearranged if
you want to change to a different layout. And it's easy to
expand when that time comes.

Keep us posted on your progress...

Don


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Welcome to the site Jeff,
Don't get discouraged there are plenty of plans to choose from or make your own.

First thing I would do is figure out how much space you can devote to the RR.
It seems like everyone that builds one adds on to it anyway. 

There is a lot of info here on the site between members and the threads.

How much room can you devote to the layout?

Download this and you can play around with different layout plans if you want,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5567&highlight=scarm

That is the thread about it, here is the link to download, http://www.scarm.info/index_en.html


----------



## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok, I found the book. Its "The Classic Layout Designs of John Armstrong" from Model Railroader, Kalmbach Publishing, copyright 2001.

This book can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Layout-Designs-Armstrong-Railroader/dp/0890244170
and is well worth having for the reading as John explains how the layouts were developed and fit with a prototype and how operations would be done.

The layout is called "French Broad Valley".
The squares in the book are 24" for HO making the layout 18' by10'. This is why the curves are too tight and the grades too steep in the post above. And yes, the tightest radius is 18" on the branch line and 24" radius on the main line. The steepest grade is 4.5% and is for down hill operations only. There are a few other fairly steep grades of 3% on which John says helper service is needed for longer trains. 

Hope this helps.

PS, I noted that the drawing in the first post here has a distortion. Look at the turntable, it is not round but larger up-down than right-left. Somewhere in the copying of the image the true aspect ratio was lost.


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

I appreciate all the tips and encouragement guys. I know it's way too early to get frustrated over a track layout. I really like this layout as the table shape helps maximize my space. I've got a max area L shape of 8'x4' on the short leg and 11'x4' on the long leg. I came home and scaled the layout with 18" squares and even at that size it's about 30" too long on the long end. The curves still scale out pretty close to 18" and 22" radii at that size. I'm determined to make some variation of this layout fit in my usable area. 

I started drawing up the layout to full scale using a drawing program called adobe illustrator to see what I can actually fit on a table with that same shape. Is the footprint of the track on a cork strip 1.75" wide? If that's the case then it seems my space keeps getting smaller. Didn't realize the track would take up that much room. Also, if I'm not going to be running any really long trains, would I be ok to have a 15" radius in a couple spots? Right now it seems I can fit both 18" and 20" curves. But the two tight curves may be about 15 or 16. 

It seems I've got quite a bit of reading to do over the next few days and hopefully I can come up with something that will workout without too much stress... Lol. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks again!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

If you run very short locos and cars you might get away with 15" radius.

The layout squares are 24" not 18".

Are you stuck on HO scale? If not then consider N scale. This would make this layout fit in the space you have.

There are a few free model RR layout programs. Use one of these instead. big_ed gave a link to scram in a post above. A number of people in the forum here use scram so give it a try.

Yes, track does take up more space than you think.


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

waltr said:


> If you run very short locos and cars you might get away with 15" radius.
> 
> The layout squares are 24" not 18".
> 
> ...


Right, the squares are 24", but I just wanted to see how it would fit at 18". If I had about another 3' I could have probably pulled it off, because the curves were 18" and 22" at that size.

I would prefer to do HO. I know very little about HO and even less about N. Isn't it harder to work with the smaller size locos, track and scenery? Is it less expensive? 

I did download and started messing with the Right Track software a bit. I'll have to check out the scarm software as well.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You'll fit twice as much railroad into the same size space with N (1:160) vs HO (1:87) scale. Tons of nice equipment available in both. If size is REALLY the determining factor then I'd go with N-scale.

Rather than being stuck on that particular track layout, what do you want to DO with your railroad? Just watch them go around? Run operations with pick-ups/drop-offs? 

Trying to figure out how you'll use it will help direct you to a track plan that works.

Look through a TON of different types of layouts and think about how they work. You'll be surprised at what you learn about the hobby (I know I did.)

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database

I'm on my 2nd layout and it's quite possible that I'll tear this one up and start over (to an extent - I'll reuse major sections) I'll do this to maximize the RR in the area I have to work with and to make operations work.

I design all of my layouts on paper. Just use graph paper, make it a large enough scale to be accurate and leave a little wiggle-room for adjustments. Flextrack is key.

If possible - use larger turnouts (#6 or bigger) as it will aid in reliability - higher speeds and smaller turnouts = derailments. Go as big on the radius of the curves as you can for the same reason. You'll regret having small radii as you constantly have to re-rail your equipment.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jeff

The only place you should consider a 15" radius curve would be on
a spur track...you do not want that tight a curve on any of your
main lines...it will cause trouble for sure and limit the type of
locomotives and cars you can use. Typical HO passenger cars, for example,
are 85' scale feet long. On curves, the ends of the cars will swing wide
and they will pull each other off the track. There are long
freight cars, as well, that would not run well on a 15" radius.

You should be able to work much of your preferred layout onto 
the table you have...but it may be helpful to add a foot or so of
width at the ends where the curves need a wider area.

Don


----------



## Hutch (Dec 19, 2012)

What's wrong with sticking with short trains if you're really short on space? There's plenty of them out there. I guess it would depend on what era you want.


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

You guys are giving me some great info that really helps and I appreciate it. 

As far as the type of layout and era go, I want to go with modern era trains. I like the diesel engines. Even though I haven't looked at ton of different layouts, I really think this layout has about everything that I would want the train to do. It seems it has a bit of everything with the track and the scenery layout. I've been messing with the SCARM software a bit here and there and with my available space it seems like I would have to leave a bit too much of that layout out of the plans. I don't want to have to just settle on a layout that I won't be happy with later on.

So, now I'm starting to look more and more at N scale. I was totally against it a few days ago, but now it's not looking so bad. With N I know I can have the layout I want without any issues. I still have some reading up on N scale. I'm going to stop by a LHS this weekend so I can really get the feel of N scale and do some price comparisons. How much cheaper is N scale? Can you use DCC for N scale? Is it durable? What's the best track to go with? 

I do know that whatever I decide to go with, I'm going to do my layout in three sections and just build and compete one section at a time then expand from there. Who knows, maybe I'll build the first section and find trains isn't my thing.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

N isn't much cheaper than HO, you can do DCC and sound no problem.

I assume you'll hit Great Lakes Hobbies on 19 mile/Van ****. They've got a great selection. 

Merri-seven trains moved up to the Troy area (from Livonia) and had a great selection as well.

Merri Seven Trains & Hobbies
3278 Rochester Rd
Troy, MI 48083-5423 (248) 680-6500


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> N isn't much cheaper than HO, you can do DCC and sound no problem.
> 
> I assume you'll hit Great Lakes Hobbies on 19 mile/Van ****. They've got a great selection.
> 
> ...


Somehow I knew it wouldn't be much cheaper. Half the size at around the same cost.

I wasn't even aware of Great Lakes Hobbies. I'll have to check them out too. I was going to stop by Rider Hobby at 13 mile/Grosebeck. I've gone there for some RC stuff and styrene sheets in the past and noticed they have quite a bit of train stuff too.

Merri Seven Trains is Empire Hobby now. I work less than a mile from there. I was actually in there today for a few minutes looking around while on lunch.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Ah....I wondered if he changed the name. I used to go to them when they were still in Livonia.

Prices aren't great at GL, but they've got a really good selection if you need something.

Another option in this area is Nankin Hobby in Farmington.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Jeff

Check out the size of N gauge gear at the Hobby Shops. I had a big N DC layout
some years ago. It is small for big fingers to work on. And,
another thing, just a tiny gap in an N rail can be a scale foot
wide...thus your trackwork must be near perfect. 

It is true, you can get so much more layout in the area you have
to work with, but is it something you can work with?

Don


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

So I've been messing around with the SCARM software a bit here and there. I was able to make my original layout plan fit in my available area using N scale, without much modification. Couldn't really come up with any layouts that I think I would be satisfied with in HO scale unfortunately. 

I know I wouldn't be able to do the whole layout at once, so I was thinking about doing it in sections. But I wasn't sure exactly how to go about doing only a partial layout and still enjoying it. So I think I'm going to just start out with a 4x8 N scale layout that I can possibly expand later on. 

I found a layout online that I think I would enjoy and re-created it in SCARM again. Now I just need to find the time to start building the table and the extra money to start buying the track and everything else I'll be needing.

Here's the layout that I came up with.....


----------



## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

tracks to the turn table??


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

wingnut163 said:


> tracks to the turn table??


Being a noob I'm not sure what you're asking me....I just went by someone else's layout and this is what they had. So if you have a tip of what I should or should not do please let me know.


----------



## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

i should have said tracks to the round house from the turn table.


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

Ahh...ok. Yep, need to put those in there....


----------



## Hutch (Dec 19, 2012)

There are a couple of Walthers turntables in scarm so you can better display what you want and connect tracks to it.


----------



## jeff823 (Nov 16, 2013)

Hutch said:


> There are a couple of Walthers turntables in scarm so you can better display what you want and connect tracks to it.
> View attachment 32068


I was wondering about how to make a circle in SCARM. Didn't even see the turntables. I'll have to check that out later. I was basing the size of the square from an Atlas turntable that's about 9" diameter. Thanks!


----------



## Hutch (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't beleive there is a way to make a circle in scarm except with tracks. I hope Mixy will get around to adding that in the future. Can't complain, he does it for the fun of it.


----------



## Hutch (Dec 19, 2012)

I found a Bachmann and a Marklin turntable in the library also.


----------

