# Yet another newbie with questions..



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

he coudnt find answers to. 

First things first, I do not have the space to setup a train set. I may be interested in buying cars/engines and keep them until I find space. I had a train set when I was very young and I believe it was HO scale. 

I went to a local independent train shop today to look around and see what they had.

They carried Athearn and.. forgot the others. Is Athearn a decent brand? Most of the freight cars they sell are $15-$18 each. Is that a decent price?

Do "independent/mom & pop" shops generally cost a lot more than online (eBay, etc..)?
Can I buy freight cars cheaper online (even after shipping)?
What should I look for in an engine?
What is more expensive, Steam or Electric, engines?
Do people you know generally buy new or used?
Do freight lines (i.e. B&O, BN, BNSF) sold by brands carry each type of freight car? 

Im sure Ill have a lot more questions as time goes by.

Thanks
Dan


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Dan...I am no expert, but I will at least give you my honest opinion on your questions. I feel Athearn is a very nice middle-of-the-road train. It has a decent price, combined with dependability and reasonably good detail. You can't really go wrong with one of them. They are easy to work on too. The freight cars sound in line with other stores out there.

I would say "mom-and-pop" stores would be more than ordering online. You can buy things cheaper online if you order several items at once. If you just buy one at a time, you would be better off at the "mom-and-pop" store. I will let other guys weigh in on the engine and what to look for (I just look for a good price I hate to say). I feel the steam is more expensive, at least from what I have noticed. I think a lot of people on this forum like to watch Ebay for good deals, but some online stores have pretty good deals on new as well. For the last question, I would say each roadname usually carries each different type of freight car. That's the best I can do for now. I am sure many more guys will weigh in.

Chad


----------



## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Athearn makes a good range of items. There Genesis line is top end. The detailing is excellant. They run great. The issue is that you pay allot more for the detail. There RTR line is less detailed but very durable. The older Blue Box engines are bullet proof, easy to repair and cheep used at shows and on EBay. The Blue Box units are no-longer made though. Atlas, Proto 2000 and Bachman Spectrum are also good ones to look at. I would avoid the entry level Life Like and Bachmann engines as well as Model Power. They just do not perform as well.


----------



## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Chad pretty much took care of the first group of questions. So I'll pitch in on the last ones.

Buying used or new is all about what you are looking for and planning to do with it. For me, I buy used as long as it is in working condition or can be fixed easily, but I'm cheap. I buy new stuff if it's on sale or if the used stuff isnt priced low enough. But it's merely opinion.

As for the roadnames and freight cars; each roadname has specific freight that they carry. I think if you wikipedia the roadname (ie Union Pacific) you should be able to find what rolling stock they have and how many, possibly even what freight they carry for a given area.


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

Guys,

Thanks for the quick replies!

I know the Athearn boxes were blue and I think they sold Atlas as well. I have an open weekend so maybe Ill go back and take take photos of the products with my phone.

At the shop they sold just about everything for an HO setup. They had the figurines, trees, cars, buidlings (which were insanely expensive! $50-$70 per),. none of which looked affordable for what you were buying. Is it THIS stuff that makes this hobby expensive?

It seems like the freight cars are the cheapest items for this hobby. But I guess this is all relative.

How any trains (coach or freight) are you running in your setup and how many freight cars for each train? 

DUMB QUESTION
What exactly are diesel and steam trains? I asusme it's just the look and that both are electric? Or no?


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Yea, I think we could all agree that a person can spend a lot of money on this hobby. Some are good at getting by more cheaply.

I always run three trains on my layout. Each train is pulling about 12 cars or so.

Chad


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

choochoo76 said:


> How any trains (coach or freight) are you running in your setup and how many freight cars for each train?
> 
> DUMB QUESTION
> What exactly are diesel and steam trains? I asusme it's just the look and that both are electric? Or no?


Personal preferences on #1, really. I run w/ about 6 cars on my small HO freight layout. I'm using some smaller locos, and climbing up a grade (incline) of almost 4%. That said, other guys here on the forum pull with big locos, hauling 20+ cars.

#2 ... exactly ... almost all model rr are electrically-motored trains that depict their real-life steam, diesel (or diesel-electric, really), or all-electic counterparts. That said, there are a few high-end companies that make REAL steam-powered model trains.

TJ


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> #2 ... exactly ... almost all model rr are electrically-motored trains that depict their real-life steam, diesel (or diesel-electric, really), or all-electic counterparts. That said, there are a few high-end companies that make REAL steam-powered model trains.
> 
> TJ


LIKE MINE! 








http://profile.imageshack.us/user/gc53dfgc








[/URLMade by a UK company called Hornby. It's a beutifully detailed train and actually runs off of steam power. They can no longer be gotten as the company has quit production of them to gear the products more towards the ever more popular DCC. They did not say if they would resume the Live Steam line with the existing engines or make new models. They are very pricy as well but for what you get the price is reasonable.


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

I know its up to the individual but are there any brands that better for tracks, buildings, etc?

I know i saw a poll somewhere on this thread that asked what brand of cars people use but was unsure if the track brand matters.


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I would at least stick with nickel/silver track...it seems to conduct electricity well...maybe stays cleaner longer than other kinds too.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

(GC ... yup! ... exactly like your real steamer!!!)

Definitely nickel silver rails.

And, as your experience grows, you might conisder soldering the rails together (where track pieces join) for extra-smooth, consistent train operation.

TJ


----------



## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

For the rails I prefer the Atlas flex track. It can be cut to any length you need. Also it can be bent to any radius curve etc. As far as code (rail height) 100 will run anything as older stock often has higher flanges. Code 83, 70 is more prototypical. I use code 100 as the majority of my rolling stock is Blue Box or Roundhouse kits.


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Yea, it is hard to go wrong with good ol' Code 100.


----------



## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

choochoo76 said:


> Guys,
> 
> Thanks for the quick replies!
> 
> ...





This is not a dumb question. 

Model railroading has many branches. The one thing they have in common is they are based on equipment that once existed or do exist, though some are modified to suit the tastes of their owner.

Trains developed in stages. The earliest were steam engines that had cables that dragged an unpowered platform along tracks, similar to cable cars. Technically, a steam engine is a power source, like the motor in your car. A locomotive is any piece of rolling stock that moves itself (usually dragging others in it's wake). For that reason, locomotives are what you see on the tracks, while "engines" power the locomotives.
Once they learned how to put the engine in the car, we had locomotives: the earliest ones were steam powered, aka, steamers or steam engines to those who don't split hairs. These monsters burned wood or coal and had a second car called a tender directly behind them. The tender was a moving water-tank and coal bin that supplied the locomotive. A crew member called the fireman shoveled coal into a firebox that sat below a huge boiler. The engineer added water to the boiler as needed: hot, boiling water made steam, steam drove giant pistons that made the big wheels (drive wheels) go 'round and down the track she scooted. Both engineers and firemen were highly skilled professionals. A fireman had to both shape the fire and feed it in such a manner as to have peak heat to accelerate or climb hills, then back off so as not to waste coal on downhills or when decelerating. The engineer controlled the steam plant: if he guessed wrong or got careless, the locomotive exploded and killed everyone.

Eventually, the change was made to using diesel-powered motors, like on a truck. Diesel is less efficient than steam, but they require less skill to operate. From that type of drive we went to electric motors (like on subways) and diesel-electics. The latter is the most common today, and uses a diesel-fueled generator to make electricity. That electricity, in turn, powers large electric motors that drive the wheels. It's a lot better system than the diesel engine in a truck: it takes a lot of power to go from zero to 1 mph with just a diesel motor, pulling a half-mile of cars. I hope that explains why there's so many types and names for everything and, by the way, most people still call 'em engines.

Best wishes,


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

VERY good explanation, Recks! I am sure those engineers really had to know what they were doing with those steam engines. I bet those engineers and firemen never put on any excess weight going back and forth all day!


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Steam locomotive, always has a tender to carry wood or coal, to feed the firebox, to make the steam.









Diesel come in a variety of cab shapes here is one. Run on diesel fuel.









Electric, picks up power through over head lines. Runs on electric.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Some more diesel types,


----------



## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> Some are good at getting by more cheaply.


Yep...I figure I'll pick up one of David's Hornby Mallards for about 30 bucks in a local yard sale...that's usually how it works for me...


----------



## jbsmith966 (Jun 19, 2010)

Q-They carried Athearn and.. forgot the others. Is Athearn a decent brand? Most of the freight cars they sell are $15-$18 each. Is that a decent price?

A-Athearn is good stuff,,not cheap,but not too pricey. 
$15 -$18 for brand new is the norm these days for Athearn,,depends on the brand too. 


Q-Do "independent/mom & pop" shops generally cost a lot more than online (eBay, etc..)?
A-Depends,,If your moms&pops sells used items you can do well, but i have found that as a general rule they tend to lean towards full MSRP on everything
that is new.
This too could be its own thread.
Each has its own advantages to put it in a nutshell.

Q-Can I buy freight cars cheaper online (even after shipping)?
A: Yes, the more cars you buy at once the better. If it is just one or two
you are just as well off going with your LHS.

Q-What should I look for in an engine?
A: This could be a thread unto itself,DC, DCC ready,DCC equiped,
If diesel---8 wheel drive is always good, remember that in this hobby you tend get what you pay for.


Q-What is more expensive, Steam or Electric, engines?
A-Depends on the manufacturer. Some are not too expensive like Bachmann.
Others like MTH and Broadway Limited can get real expensive.
Steam tends to cost more than diesels and electric,and are a bit more fussy, just like their real counterparts.


Q-Do people you know generally buy new or used?
A- I do Both. However i tend to be a bit leary of used locomotives.

Q-Do freight lines (i.e. B&O, BN, BNSF) sold by brands carry each type of freight car? "
A-Up to a certain point. There is MUCH more to choose from these days
it can drive one nuts. Athearn and Walthers have the largest variety to choose from.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Back to Reck's nice history lesson ...

I was intrigued to learn a few months back that back in the early 1900's there were some oil-fired steam engines build for out-west operation. However, the operators found that oil availability was limited, with refineries being few and far between. So, many of these locos were converted to run on coal, which was abundently available.

I had always thought (naively) that oil-fired locos evolved from coal-fired locos. But not necessarily, per the example above.

TJ


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

That is very interesting tj! I would think oil would have made a good hot fire for producing steam. I suppose coal was maybe cheaper for them to use. That is a good tidbit of info to know!

Chad


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

Ive been looking for freight cars and moticed that some are listed as 40', 50', 60' etc.. whats the difference? They are all the same size physically, right?

Wheels of the cars, do they come in plastic and metal? 
Is it best to try and keep cars the same brand?
In regards to engines, what do the three numbers mean? (X-X-X)


----------



## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

40/50/60/XX has to do with the scale length of the car body. So if it says it's a 40' boxcar, it is 40' in whatever scale you're dealing with. You can have as short as 20' ore cars or as long as 85' intermodal cars and everything in between. And the wheel type (metal or plastic) varies from brand to brand or even quality line within the same brand. Metal wheels tend to roll more smoothly, but are a little noisier on unsoldered track.

As for the engines, you'll see two different number setups. One is numbers only and is used for steam locos. If you have a 0-6-0, it means there are no pilot wheels, 6 drive wheels, and no trailing wheels. A 4-8-8-4 would have 4 pilot wheels, two sets of 8 drive wheels and 4 trailing wheels. When counting the wheels, you count both sides together.

The other number setup is commonly used for diesel locos. A-A, B-B, A1A-A1A, etc. This shows how many axles are on each truck and how many of those are powered. So the A-A has two single axles, each one powered. The B-B would have two axles on each truck and all are powered. The A1A-A1A would have three axles on each truck, with the first and third axle on each truck powered. There might be more to these, but this is all I can remember for now.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

cabledawg said:


> The other number setup is commonly used for diesel locos. A-A, B-B, A1A-A1A, etc. This shows how many axles are on each truck and how many of those are powered. So the A-A has two single axles, each one powered. The B-B would have two axles on each truck and all are powered. The A1A-A1A would have three axles on each truck, with the first and third axle on each truck powered. There might be more to these, but this is all I can remember for now.


:thumbsup:

Thanks, Dawg ... I did not know that. Neat!

TJ


----------



## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

This link goes into extensive detail on the diesel axle/truck arrangements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAR_wheel_arrangement


----------



## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Back to Reck's nice history lesson ...
> 
> I was intrigued to learn a few months back that back in the early 1900's there were some oil-fired steam engines build for out-west operation. However, the operators found that oil availability was limited, with refineries being few and far between. So, many of these locos were converted to run on coal, which was abundently available.
> 
> ...


Teej,

That's a good point. I ran across one a few months back when reading about an existing unit at a railroad museum. It began it's career as a coal-fired steamer and ran a respectable number of years before being obsoleted by it's owners. It was then refitted to run on oil and sold to a line in Mexico, where it had it's second era of service. I'm moving into conjecture at this point, so take this next point as a guess: when Mexico nationalized it's (American-owned) oil fields in 1938, fuel oil probably became available in quantity for goverment-backed industries such as railroads. Coal, in contrast, is of limited supply in Mexico. I'd posit that in Mexican and American history, fuel oil was viewed as the coming thing that would replace coal as oil fields were opened, and fuel-oil steamers were produced. Diesels, though, made it possible for the average person to learn to drive a locomotive. I don't mean to belittle diesel engineers, but simply to point out it's a lot simpler to run a diesel engine than to operate a steam plant on wheels.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dawg --

Excellent link! I'm gonna tag this thread with some buzz words for future searches ... see link in post above ...

Diesel and electric wheel configuration
Diesel and electric wheel arrangement
AAR wheel arrangement


Reck -- very interesting narrative / history. On a loosely related front, it makes me think a bit about our recent baby-step automotive transition into hybrid and electric vehicles. I wonder how we'll all look back on the transition (and how it might play out) 50 years from now?

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

This is way off the "track," but that's ok. I would just like to follow up on TJ's point about transitioning into hybrid and electric vehicles. I LOVE the idea of making cars more fuel efficient and more 'green.' If there were a car available that got upwards of 100 mpg AND it was affordable, I think people would buy it like crazy!

The only thing I have against the 'green' cars is their darn sticker price. You can't save enough gas in the life of the car to make it worth the big sticker price. Now granted, I am comparing buying a new 'green' car to buying a good used gas one, which isn't really fair to the 'green' cars. For driving 10,000 miles a year (like I do), I am way ahead with the good used gas car. Even if a guy would buy both brand new, it is hard to get much ahead with the 'green' car (at 10,000 miles per year)...especially when the 'green' car costs a bit more. Maybe if one factors in the tax credit on the 'green' one, it can be justified more.

I like the thought of going 'green'...I just don't want it to be hard on the 'green' in the wallet...lol.

Chad


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chad,

I agree with you 100% ... even more when we consider that our government (now in the car-building business) is subsidizing green car research and manufacturing (through tax rebates to people buying the cars) with OUR tax money.

I'm all for helping to keep Mother Earth clean and green ... just don't have our all-knowing government pull wads of GREEN out of my wallet in the process. We'd be much better off, in my opinion, if pure capitalism was driving this train.

Rant over ... though that was a good segway back to trains, huh?!?

TJ


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

VERY smooth transition back to trains, TJ! I am glad there is someone else who shares some of the same views, my friend! Maybe the government subsidies will help make the cars more affordable, and we can all win in the long run!

That was a fun "side track" to go down.

Chad


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> Yep...I figure I'll pick up one of David's Hornby Mallards for about 30 bucks in a local yard sale...that's usually how it works for me...


I sure hope you never find my mallard as a whole set for 30 dollars. Nothing against you but really would make my train lower in value which I feel it is already at a very good price for what it is. 

P.S. Let me know if you do find one at a garage sale for 30 dollars I will buy it up in a heartbeat.


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Now to really transition back into trains. LOL! Does the government control what trains are made by EMD now adays. I know EMD is a division of GMC just like GE has aviation divisions and train divisions. Does EMD have its own website? Does the government trully control everything that goes on at EMD or is there still a boss with actual sense in railroad aspects? Is EMD hiring engineers at this time (I mean like mechanical or electrical engineers)? How would one go about getting in contact with them and getting the form to fill out? Sorry for the bagillian questions but I think when I get out of High School and go to college I would like to become a mechanical engineer and would love to get to work and design the things I love the most or close to their of Trains! i would prefere EMD over GE because EMD engines in my opinion have looked nicer and i love the sound of the engines.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

GC,

I have no insight to your questions re: EMD/GMC. However, I just wanted to pass along a huge "atta' boy" for your engineering ambitions. When I was a teen, I had (and still have) a passion for boats and sailing. I study naval architecture / marine engineering in college, and have truly been blessed to have enjoyed a long career doing what I love. Follow your passions, and work will always be challenging and fun.

TJ


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

Of Walthers, Accuready, Athearn, Smithe, and Atlas, would Walthers be near the bottom of the barrel?

Ive noticed they are cheaper than Athearn and Atlas, and I think Smithe.

Would Walthers be ok for freight cars?


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I wouldn't say Walthers quality is any less than the others. Like most of all company's they have multiple lines of products, with multiple level of Quality.
The standard line is not to bad, The gold line has some very fine details. So comparing company's flat out is really hard to do.


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

5 new, standard Walther cars for $55 shipped isn't too bad, right?


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

$11 per car shipped I would say is a great price. Many railcars are around $18 apiece these days. Might want to verify that is has metal wheels and knuckle couplers.

Chad


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I try to stay in the $10 to $15 per car range. So your right on track. I'll second Chad's


> Might want to verify that is has metal wheels and knuckle couplers


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I would love to have an auto rack or two on the layout, but those things can be expensive. I haven't priced them in a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were around $28 to $30 apiece.

Chad


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

These 5 cars are from the Walthers "Trainline." Metal wheels but the couplers are not specified, ill have to call.
.
.

Called and they said the couplers will be whatever Walrhers uses on all their lines.


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Yea, I would think they would be knuckle couplers...I don't think too many have the old horn-hook couplers anymore.


----------



## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I have some of the Walthers kits. They are always of good quality. Sometimes they are a little on the light side for my liking. That being said the ones I have are basically modified flat cars or something simular.


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

If i want a diesel engine with a lot of pulling power, what do I look for in the description or the x-x-x?

I was looking at the Atlas or Athearn, RTR Belt Railway of Chicago GP38-2 engine, but I don't know its pulling power. 

The Belt Railway Co. of Chicago runs a few blocks from my old house and I plan to run BNSF cars with it.


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

the x-x-x prefix only applys to steam engines like a 4-6-2 Heavy Pacific. a GP38-2 will not have the abbillity to haul as many cars as a dash 8, sd70, or a three axled truck diesel engine. Also the type of motor in the train will determine its pulling power. Atlas and Athearn both have very good motors and flywheels in their engines.


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

Im definately not getting a steam engine. Perhaps ill use the GP38-2 as a second engine. I'm guessing someone makes a BNSF engine that has some nice pulling power?


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

yes Athearn makes a C44-9W or Dash 9 and it has excellent pulling power. Mine was a DC engine so I had to convert it to DCC. I do not know if they currently make a Dash 9 DCC ready or not but they are making SD70MAC's witch have excellent pulling power and are DCC.


----------



## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I have 4 axle Athearn Blue Box F7 s that will out pull my Mehano 6 axle SD40-2. Both are using the same Athearn motor (re-motored the Mehano). The difference is in the weight of the two models. If we were talking prototypes this would not be the case. With the models the weight of the locomotive has allot to do with its tractive effort (pulling power). If you see a locomotive that you like but it does not pull the number of cars you want it to try adding weight. Preferable over the trucks. 

Some will mention traction tires or Bull Frog Snot to add to the locomotive's ability to pull. I do not. If something is going to break it will be under stress (load) and at the weakest link. To me the best possible weakest link is the wheel slipping on the track. No repairs needed, just remove a car of two.


----------



## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

tkruger said:


> If something is going to break it will be under stress (load) and at the weakest link. To me the best possible weakest link is the wheel slipping on the track. No repairs needed, just remove a car of two.


Slipping the drivers under load is the best way to ensure that you don't burnout a motor. Years ago AHM/Rivarossi would knurl the drivers, much like the cross hatch pattern used on tool grips. Didn't take but a few smoked motors to change that idea quickly.


----------



## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Hmmmm, needs a bigger motor then..............:laugh:


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I agree with tk and shay...you can't hurt much with the wheels slipping. Most trains these days will pull quite a few cars, mostly because most rolling stock tends to roll so easily these days...they are lightweight too.

Chad


----------



## choochoo76 (Dec 2, 2010)

How many cars can an Atlas/Athearn GP38-2 pull?


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

The answer depends on what kind of cars, what weight, wheel types, drag factors, flat or incline. It just depends on allot of things, there really is no proper answer.


----------

