# Just to prove that I am, "Crazy!"



## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Okay, after ya'll look at the pics, it's okay to tell me that my momma, DID raise a fool:laugh:

This started out as a, "Total Restoration Project" for rainy days. That's why I bought her. She's a 200 series Alco Santa Fe 218. So when the wife's, "Honey Do's" around the exterior of the house and the lawns can't be worked on

Supposedly, the engine was shot, as was the e-unit, and horn. The shell does have it's front apron entact. The top horn is shot. The screw hole for securing the body to the frame is all unbroken. She is a, "Dirty, Rusty, Beast!"

But all is not lost..........

Lightly sanded some of the connections, changed a light bulb, and gave her some juice.......Viola! It took a few tries, but she roared to life!! I decided to try a battery for the horn. Yup, you guessed it, we have sound(and better than the horn on my 226!)

The bad news is, I think I need to replace the frame It's not battery damage) just plain rust and lots of it! Gimme your thoughts on that and any/all suggestions are welcome!


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

Well, I think you're crazy 
I think you're crazy 
I think you're crazy 
Just like me 

You have a lot of work cut out for you... The frame cannot be saved with some aggressive sanding?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

Hey ... what's the deal with this multitasking stuff? Isn't there a law in most states that says you can't work on a rusty old pre-war steam loco and a rusty old post-war diesel loco at the same time? I'd turn down the lights and draw the blinds closed if I were you!

I'm only judging from your photos, but the mechanics (motor, etc.) don't look too bad to me ... you seem to have gotten things running without too much effort. That leaves the frame, trucks, axles, wheels. Have at 'em with Scotchbrite, Dremel wire brush, etc. and see what you get. My guess is there's some decent metal left in that frame ... now that you're a priming/painting pro ... bada boom ... bada bing ... and "Bob's your Uncle" as they say Down Under.

Oh ... and if anyone comes a-knockin' on my door asking if I have any knowledge or association with what behind-closed-door things are going on down in Virginia, I'll simply deny, deny, deny ...

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Sand/ epoxy/paint

You crazy man!:laugh:


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

I think you can strip it down to the frame (May have to drill out some rivets) a good sanding and prime and it will paint up good as new. your going to have fun with the outer paint scheme... pinstripe tape will help mask it out.... and a decal set and you will have one sweet honey cruising your rails


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

B & M-The kind of sanding she needs will require my, "Power Tool!"

TJ-"Multi-Tasking?" Nah, just just 8 grandchildren that all want their own engines, and a "Papou(grandad in Greek"", that gives them what they want! And thanks for covering my back

Big Ed-There will be, "Rust-A-Flyin" around here for days! Epoxy to smooth out the pitting?

Rich-That's todays plan. I'm going to start the "tear-down" process, but not before I make a trip to the local HW store for some Naval Jelly. I want to get as much of the corrosion off as possible before I start sanding. 

AM update........
Last night I "bathed" the shell in some warm, soapy, water. What I originally thought was grime covering her, was some sort of clear laquer they used when they replaced the nose decal. As it stands now, she will need to be stripped to the plastic. The good news is, the body is in nice shape for a 53 year old Wish I held up this well


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you are going to do a lot of this, try to find one of those stone polishng drums. Where you have sand rotating and polishing stone for days. It would work on smaller parts like wheels. All it would take is time. Sort of like having your own sand blaster.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

I took her apart this morning. The rust pattern is strange. some areas have no rust others are scary!

T-Man, are the 2 Dremel attachments what you mentioned in your reply? One is coarse, the other, finer. I took a wire brush to one set of the wheels, they are pitted and I wonder if they're worth saving(though they'd do okay in a gondola as scrap )

Although I'm not crazy about all the sanding, I will try to save the frame, but will continue to look for a replacement. Long term, I think that it would be best. I have the old set of front trucks from my 226, looks like they'll be getting good use

I was amazed by the condition of the motor. Aside from some normal dirt and grime, looks to be in great shape. I cleaned the armature. No gauges, and the brushes weren't in bad shape. I sanded(400 grit), cleaned the slots, and sprayed with RS Electronics cleaner.

None of my other alco had shouldered brushes.......

Here are the pics


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Although I'm not crazy about all the sanding, I will try to save the frame, but will continue to look for a replacement. Long term, I think that it would be best.


the strange rust pattern may be because the frame wasn't painted, its was blued, like a gun.... and for rust to start it would have had to get under the protective oxide layer. Most metal postwar trucks & wheels seem to have the "Blued" treatment. You can get gun bluing compound at most good camping/outdoor shops that have a hunting department. its a two part processes.... de-grease/clean & Blue... If you do it... wear good gloves.... the de-grease will really dry out your skin, and the blue soaks into skin very well.... also be in a well ventilated area... the fumes from the bluing process are toxic

Try a wire brush on the dremel to get the Oxide off and down to stable metal... then sand as smooth as you can.... then this is where sandable primer comes into its own... Put on a coat and let it dry.... then sand the ruff areas down so that the high spots get to bare metal.... then re-coat... dry... sand..... from what I see it should take at most 3 coats to fill in the pitting.. then a nice top coat... and you will not even know it was rusted...

One thing to remember... when you reattach the mounting hardware and bulb sockets, remember they usually get their ground from the frame and paint is a very poor conductor. I got around this by attaching grounding straps to the brackets and bulb socket and then used a wire lug on the truck attaching screw.... or any other "Good" Ground.... There is a ground lug on the motor that you can use as well.... you can attach the straps before you paint, just remember to remove the rosin residue before you put on any paint.

Sorry if I get too wordy or state the obvious, but someone who doesn't know any of this might find it helpful


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Rich, I'm appreciative of all the help/suggestions I've received so far

I'm not gonna try the, "bluing!" I'm going to go with the wire brush, sand, prime, sand, prime, sand prime! 

Do you wash in cool, soapy water & rinse well, between coats of primer, or do you "Wet Sand?"

I guess you can tell that this is my first time with something in such bad condition:laugh:

By the way, the Marx looks real nice with one coat of primer. It went on evenly and there's excellent coverage. Should I sand before painting(not ready yet, haven't decided on colors/scheme?)


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

Ha ha ... I just had a "chuckle moment" ...

Here you are endeavoring to remove every trace of rust.

And here's this "train artist" referenced in B&M's recent link whose very successful profession is to put it on!

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=49925

Maybe you should save your rust shavings, put them in a little ziplock bag, and send them off to this guy?

Go figure ...

TJ


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

TJ, excellent pictures.

but for removal of rust, why not just galvanize everything? connect the + terminal of your 12V automotive battery charger to the part and put it into bucket or bowl of water (or salty water). connect a zink plated bolt to negative terminal and but it into the water as well. after 8-24 hours of treatment it will be shiny and never rust again


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Do you wash in cool, soapy water & rinse well, between coats of primer, or do you "Wet Sand?"
> 
> By the way, the Marx looks real nice with one coat of primer. It went on evenly and there's excellent coverage. Should I sand before painting(not ready yet, haven't decided on colors/scheme?)


wet sanding keeps the paper from clogging up with paint dust. 400 & 800 are so fine that the dust would render it useless at best and creating more damage to the primer at worst. But that's only when we are talking the HUGE surfaces in automotive work. Since we are trying to fix rust here, best to avoid adding any more moisture to the situation if we can help it... as far as cleaning up.... Just wipe off the dust with a clean cloth. you can use a little denatured alcohol, but be careful not to soak it on and dissolve the primer.... wear gloves when handling it so you don't get any of the oil from your skin on the surface, as well as protecting them from all the chemicals. Most auto parts shops sell boxes of nice latex work gloves. The ones I use are called "Diamond" something and are blue in color... box of 100 is like $15


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

tankist said:


> but for removal of rust, why not just galvanize everything?


What a cool Idea.... I'll have to try that sometime.... Our Local Home Depot has bins of large zinc plated bolts....


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Anton,

That sounds like a good idea. Much to my dismay, my old college lessons on this are burned into my brain synapses. Have you ever tried something like that? Should work, I'd think. Are you sure about the polarity ... I thought negative to the object being plated (cathode), positive to the anode (plating material)?

I seem to recall that the solution should be somewhat acid ... vinegar should work. Epsom salt in the mix, too. And, there needs to be some zinc disolved in the solution ... so let the zinc bathe for a while.

FYI -- Zinc is available quite cheaply at any marine supply store (used as a sacrificial anode for electrolysis protection on hull bottoms).

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

When you guys get that, "Galvinizing" ready to go. send me an address and I'll have the frame right to ya!:laugh:

This is the result of 4 hours of sanding/grinding and cursing!

The rust is deep in a few places, and hopefully the primer/paint, will at least slow down the progress for a while!

Comments/suggestions?

Jim


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> The rust is deep in a few places, and hopefully the primer/paint, will at least slow down the progress for a while!


Hit it with primer and put in in a warm place.... let it dry and give it a sanding.... your trying to sand off the primer in the "High & level" areas.... and leave it in the low spots.... then dust it off... and reprime... sand again... and reprime... see if you can still see the pitting... you can repeat this process until you can't see it anymore, or you run out of sandpaper/primer/strength/willpower

you can also have a shot at some Bondo Body putty (auto parts store).... you mix a little with its activator... spread it on like Spackle... let it dry and sand then do primer.... the primer sand method will give you a stronger surface

BTW... to keep an nice crisp edge where the pitting goes over the side of the frame. Wrap the sandpaper around a block of wood and use that to sand in nice square strokes


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks Rich!

I think tomorrow is for the primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand............


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> I think tomorrow is for the primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand............


Hard work I know..... but great results require great effort..... can't wait to see it all finished


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gents,

I've just bought 100 shares of Rustoleum stock ... I'm so giddy ... I'm gonna be rich!!!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

"You're gonna be Rich?"
Who's Rich gonna be?

So far, I've only bought 2 cans of primer & 2 cans of satin. Bought 1 of flat, but I didn't like it

No telling what it will take to finish this frame???????????
primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand/primer/sand............


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Gents,
> 
> I've just bought 100 shares of Rustoleum stock ... I'm so giddy ... I'm gonna be rich!!!
> 
> TJ



I deliver to Rustoleum Plants and let me tell you that they have been buying up a lot of company's in the last year! 
You should have bought stock.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Rich!*

Okay The pics sho the frame after 2 prime/sand sessions. That's the 3rd coat of primer and as you can see, the pitting on one side still shows

Lesson learned? Stick with "Bondo!":laugh::laugh:

I am going to sand and prime one more time. As bad as it looks, it was worse after the first time, so what the hell

The front truck wheels were, "Toast!" I had an extra set from when I replaced the front truck on the 226. The contact rollers and plate cleaned up really well, so all I need are decals, paint, and the rear coupler & spring. Not bad

Jim

pics..............


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Jim,

Looking very good. I wouldn't about a little pitting ... adds character! As long as the rust is gone, and the primer is doing its job, you'll soon be back in business.

I just scrolled up and looked at the "rust bucket" Pic #006 at the beginning of your "resurrection". Quite the improvement in that frame!

Are you still planning on the Santa Fe graphics? If so, that's a tricky task ahead with the silver/red curved paint transition, especially over the ridgy vent louver section. Not to scare you off, or anything ... but that'll be a good challenge!

Keep up the nice work,

TJ


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm with tj... what an improvement!!... You can still Bondo if you like, it will stick to primer, or get scratch filler, comes in a tube like toothpaste... just squeeze a bit out... smooth it with the edge of a credit card let dry and sand....... your like me... it isn't right till its perfect


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Is Today a, "Bondo Kind of Day?"*

Morning All

After I sand this morning, I'll have a better picture of whether I can live with the slight pitting that's still visible. or whether I'm off to Wal-Mart for some Bondo. In retrospect, I think T-Man has the right idea. Bondo would have saved me countless steps(not to mention a couple of days ) in the finish process.

I've been researching the decals available, and all that I need is out there. TJ, it will be a tough job, but I'm going to buy 2 sets just in case I flubb the first attempt:laugh:

As I said before, the stripping went well, but there is an area on the nose that was under the decal that puzzles me. I've since tried to more attempts with the oven cleaner, but the color persists

Anyone know what it is, and what's safe to use to remove it? I have acetone & denatured alcohol, but will that hurt the shell?

Also, the 204 will be getting a, "Face Lift!" What do you think of the attached logos?

And one final question. I don't have any F series diesels to check this with. Are the number boards, winshields, or actually, are pretty much all the dimensions the same(other than the apron/frames?

Thanks in advance


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*I forgot, AGAIN!*

I'm past the point of needing help:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

Looking nice. Is that a plastic shell, or a cast shell? I thought cast, but it almost looks too white in your photo. Odd that the red paint persists under where the front decal was located.

If cast, you might try a little acetone (or nailpolish remover, which is acetone based, but toned down a bit).

If it's plastic, you've gotta proceed more carefully ... acetone might start eating into the plastic ... a result you obviously want to avoid.

There was a product on the market (available in hardware stores) called "Oops" that worked great for things like this. It USED to come in a rectangular metal can with a WHITE label. Removed latex paint, sticky goo, etc. all without damaging the underlying surface. However ...

About a year ago, they changed their forumla, and it now comes in a YELLOW rectangular metal can. And they've dialed-up the formula to the point where it's almost like that scene from the movie "Alien" where the creature's acid-based blood spills and eats its way through 3 decks of the spaceship. Yoww.

If you can find white-can Oops ...

Whatever you use, likely best to test it on the underside of the cab, where any residual etching/damage won't be a concern.

Keep us posted!

TJ


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Morning AllI think T-Man has the right idea. Bondo would have saved me countless steps(not to mention a couple of days ) in the finish process.


I guess the pitting was a little deeper then I could see in the photos.... at least you can now see exactly where the filler is needed.... you will need to sand it before you put on bondo to give plenty of "Tooth" for the filler to grab onto... then feather it in after it drys with sandpaper around a bit of wood block.....

That's going to be some slick looking loco when its done


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Rich, no Bondo! I sanded again, and decided on one more coat of primer. It looks a whole lot better(yeah, there are still a few spots that are noticeable) but I got handed a, "Honey Do List", and well, I caved

I'll post a pic after I put the first coat of finish on. You'll be able to see better from that.

Thanks,
Jim


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> but I got handed a, "Honey Do List", and well, I caved


When the boss call.... the boss calls, plus a happy boss means more play time with trains


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

Is it my imagination, or is that a new logo you're sporting there under your name? Nice!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Yup, that's the logo I will be using for the 204.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Frame Progress.......*

I think I'm done with the frame
No, it's not "perfect!" And yes, Bondo would have made this easier, and a much better finished product, but at least now I know why T-Man likes it so much

Today, I'll re-attach the trucks, e-unit, horn and horn relay. There's a little bit of re-wiring I'll do because the leads were left long and not tinned. I can see some corrosion, and that's not cool.

So now comes the hard part

Questions;
1) How do I prep the shell for painting? Other than a good wash, rinse and drying. There are a few scuffs and also the remenents of the heat stamped numbers and letters. T-man, I think I recall you said I should Bondo and sand, those. But what about the rest of the shell?
2) I've attached a photo of a "A & B Unit 218"(notice the diff in the nose decals? I bet the red under the old decal was there as a base for the open part of the decal!)
3) should I paint the whole shell with the Silver, and then come back with red? Or, should I mask out the separate parts?

Thanks To All of You! I'd of never tried this without your support and encouragement:thumbsup:


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Yeah, I forgot the pics. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!*

Chalk it up to "Old Age!":laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Yup, that's the logo I will be using for the 204.


Virgin Railway? At your age? :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Did you try any ethanol? Not denatured alcohol.( Denaturing adds other chemicals in and might take paint off.)

We denature ours with Ethyl Acetate, Heptane,Methyl Iso Butyl Ketone, Methanol, Propyl Acetate and Isopropanol 99%. Some times we use a mixture of three or four denaturing agents together. 
It all depends what we are making the blend for.

I don't know if you can buy straight 190 or 200 proof. As I never tried to as I get mine from work.
And if you can you are getting a chemical made ethanol. 
Don't try to drink it!:laugh: 
Unless you get a hold of 190 or 200 proof Grain ethanol.
Then you can drink it but not straight you got to blend it with something or you will burn a hole in your stomach.

Watch using acetone on the plastic. 

My old (young) lady was outside trying to get some old bumper sticker glue off of her bumper. She was scrubbing with soap and water and Windex, she tried Isopropanol and that didn't work. 
I was pulling in the drive and she was coming out of the house with some acetone I brought home for her finger nail polish remover. Luckily I caught her before she ruined her plastic (rubber?) bumper with it.:laugh:
I went in the garage and got some 200 proof straight ethanol and poured a little on a rag. With very little effort she got it off. She was amazed how it got it off as she was trying for an hour to scrub it off.

I don't know how it would work on a heat stamped decal though. Worth a try as you can't hurt it with the ethanol.

Anyone know if you can buy ethanol (non denatured) in the stores?
I never bothered to look as I get all my chemical supplies from the tank trucks valves.

Use the ethanol to wash it in between coats too. You got to watch what Isopropanol you buy too as 91% has been denatured and it will make your skin burn and take paint off too. 99% Isopropanol is OK to use but I don't think it will help to much in getting off decals.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I beg to differ....*grins* In my younger days, we proved our manhood by drinking grain alcohol straight. It has affected my vision---when my gf wants me to buy something I don't like, I say I can't see it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

I'm still confused ... Is that a cast metal shell or a plastic shell on the 218?

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, the 218 is a plastic shell. 
And by the way TJ, "Oops & Goo Off" are anathema to the shells Had a piece of plastic from a busted to smithereens caboose, melted the plastic!!!!

Ed, thanks for the heads up on ethanol. Reckers had me believing that it was strictly used for, "Medicinal Purposes!"


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Not A Happy Camper*



4 hours of brushing, sanding and using my Dremel resulted in now knowing the wheels on the motor drive need to be replaced!

Never done this, and considering the fact that it's Magan-Traction to boot

I had to grind down the rivet heads to remove the plastic truck sides(I'll replace with small screw/lock-washer/nut)
What a mess! looks like I have more, "cargo" for one of my gondolas

Any advice?

Jim


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The wheels look fine. Use a maroon scotch brite for coarse rust. You could go with a drill and wire brush for those. Or start with a coarse paper 100 to 200 and work to a 300. In fact run the engine and buff the wheel with paper . Four hours? 20 minutes I'm done. that's 3 hours and forty minutes of crazy.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*T-Man!!!!!!*

Who'd a thought?:laugh:

Are they, "Perfect?" No, but they are usable, and for now($$$) will have to do. There was some rust still present on 1 wheel. It's deeper, and will eventually need to be replaced(never know what deal I might find, sitting by the bay!):laugh:

I used emory cloth(plumbers use it for copper work) and finished it with some 400. 

What's the verdict?:thumbsup::thumbsdown:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

JUst as long as they stay on the track and conduct current, it's a go!


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

I feel the same way!

Do you know who might sell those shouldered plastic sleeves that are used with the screws for the battery assembly?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

Those "before" and "after" pics of the drive truck are amazing. Very, VERY nice work. Wheels look quite servicable to me.

I wonder if our forum might honor its members with something like a "Restoration of the Month" award? T-Man, of course, has his long-standing spot on the podium! But for others, projects like this 218 "resurrection" of yours really offers inspiration to us all. Really fine work, and always refreshing to see something that was worthy of dumpster-status brough back to life so caringly. You and the 218-in-progress help to showcase to everyone what a little patience and t.l.c. can do.

And while I'm on the subject, I gotta tip my hat to Reckers and his aluminum passenger car resurrection last month. More dead junk turned back to life.

I mean this most sincerely, guys ... a big thumbs-up for your hard work, thanks for sharing with all of us ... it's great inspiration for our (and my) future projects!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, the "Real Credit", goes to all the members that take time away from all their other pressing, day-to-day happenings, and share knowledge, encouragement and support.:thumbsup:

If I hadn't stumbled on to this site, I would have never had the confidence, much less the desire, to take on some of these projects:laugh:

You're All A Great Group, Thank You!!

Καλό Πάσχα!

Χριστός Aνέστη! 
and the reply..........
Αληθώς Ανέστη!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Stillakid said:


> I feel the same way!
> 
> Do you know who might sell those shouldered plastic sleeves that are used with the screws for the battery assembly?


You lost me??? What's it do?


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

T-Man, the screws that hold down the battery holder fro the horn, slip into the shouldered sleeve, and the sleeve goes into the hole. I think it keeps the holder from making contact with the frame?


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> T-Man, the screws that hold down the battery holder fro the horn, slip into the shouldered sleeve, and the sleeve goes into the hole. I think it keeps the holder from making contact with the frame?


Would this help


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Rich, it shows the washer, but in the drawing, they appear flat. The ones I have in the 204-218 & 226, all appear to be shouldered with a sleeve.Like a "T" with a hollow core down the middle!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Can you "fabricate" the "T" washer simply by stacking two plastic or fiber washers glued together, one small outside diameter, and one larger outside diameter? Instant "T"?


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Or maybe pick up some nylon screws.... Home depot has them


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Rich, that's exactly what I need! And darned if I don't have some


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