# AF 312 K 5 giving me grief



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I really like the appearance of the 312 K5. Because of this I removed the original motor and eunit and replaced it with a reduction motor and a Dalee 400. They both work fine. My problem is in the power pickup I think. The wheels are of a silverish color, not brass. I have burnished the wheels with a wire brush on my Dremel an polished with a non-metallic burnisher. I cleaned the brass springs and the axles. The problem is running on the track. It stops as if the track is dirty. I cleaned the track. My 282 runs perfectly. This leaves me thinking that I may have a cold solder joint on the truck rivets. I find this unlikely although. Spooks? Ideas???:dunno:


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You need to determine if the problem is between the track and the Dallee unit or between the Dallee unit and the motor. Sounds like you fixed the power pickup and the problem is not a short since you are not seeing sparks near the truck/chassis rivets. How is the power getting from the Dallee unit to the motor? Are you using the original braid covered 4 wires and jacks? If so one or more of those finely stranded wires could have failed. This happens with age and use (of the wire, not the owner.)


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The rims have to be on solid. If they are loose it will short on the frame.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> You need to determine if the problem is between the track and the Dallee unit or between the Dallee unit and the motor. Sounds like you fixed the power pickup and the problem is not a short since you are not seeing sparks near the truck/chassis rivets. How is the power getting from the Dallee unit to the motor? Are you using the original braid covered 4 wires and jacks? If so one or more of those finely stranded wires could have failed. This happens with age and use (of the wire, not the owner.)


I used the provided wires for the motor and Dalee connected at the original jack and plug.

Wire is all new but I will verify the joints.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke you are probably on the right track with checking solder points. Probably a loose wire. Transformer not showing a short?


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I second T-Man's suggestion.. Check the white insulator rims...


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke did not mention he was getting a short. Unless I missed it.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I had one bad insulator on a rim and it drove me nuts to find it. Another one was the tender insulators from the frame. Very important to check them especially on working with an unknown engine that you have not recently seen running.


Check everything you can and the culprit is usually something you did. 
.


----------



## Jwh2000 (Dec 4, 2017)

It could still be the track. Had one of my 312's do the same thing and it was a spot in the track.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, have you had time to work on the K5 problem. Curious what the problem might have been. If you have not found problem your multimeter will be much help. Run the engine and when it stops check for track power. If that is good which I suspect will be fine because your 282 runs fine on the track. With your meter see how far in your engine the power is getting. Somewhere it stops. That is your mission to find where it stops. Should not be hard to find. Let us know. I love K5s also.

To track the power you will have to remove tender shell. And maybe the locomotive shell. Only so many solder connections. One (or more) is failing. Wires can look good but be broken inside the insulation.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> Broke, have you had time to work on the K5 problem. Curious what the problem might have been. If you have not found problem your multimeter will be much help. Run the engine and when it stops check for track power. If that is good which I suspect will be fine because your 282 runs fine on the track. With your meter see how far in your engine the power is getting. Somewhere it stops. That is your mission to find where it stops. Should not be hard to find. Let us know. I love K5s also.
> 
> To track the power you will have to remove tender shell. And maybe the locomotive shell. Only so many solder connections. One (or more) is failing. Wires can look good but be broken inside the insulation.


You're right about those wires.. I just did a Circus Engine for a friend here and it was not getting any power to the engine. I used 1 of my test mule tenders and it ran somewhat with the test tender. I checked for continuity and found a broken wire inside the fabric covering. I did a re-wire and everything was good.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Mopac, sorry for no updates. I have been busy planting in my garden and my back hurts!:laugh::laugh::laugh:
It is looking like a wire problem. The 312 is on the desk but I haven't had time to troubleshoot it. Maybe tomorrow... Also, have been busy watching the Golden Spike celebrations and the UP4014 here in Utah. Just not enough time...


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

No problem Broke. I was just curious. I have AF projects around here that I should have got to a year ago. I keep my 282 running and the rest can wait till I am ready. I am about
as slow as there is on getting my repairs done. If I didn't have some running I would be on them sooner.


----------



## dooper (Nov 9, 2015)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Mopac, sorry for no updates. I have been busy planting in my garden and my back hurts!:laugh::laugh::laugh:
> It is looking like a wire problem. The 312 is on the desk but I haven't had time to troubleshoot it. Maybe tomorrow... Also, have been busy watching the Golden Spike celebrations and the UP4014 here in Utah. Just not enough time...


Hi Broke, My wife and I visited the Golden Spike last summer on our way to Seattle. Got there at the right time and saw one of engines. The only problem we had was having to wait for about 20 minutes for a cattle drive to cross the road. We just put the top down and enjoyed the view.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

dooper said:


> Hi Broke, My wife and I visited the Golden Spike last summer on our way to Seattle. Got there at the right time and saw one of engines. The only problem we had was having to wait for about 20 minutes for a cattle drive to cross the road. We just put the top down and enjoyed the view.


A great place to visit anytime.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, see if your wife could stop by the post office today and pick you up a full page of
"first day" "Golden Spike" stamps. Around 10.00 for full page of them. I hope to get to my post office in a bit. LOL, you can always use them to mail letters. They are forever stamps. I might put mine in a picture frame.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Broke, see if your wife could stop by the post office today and pick you up a full page of
> "first day" "Golden Spike" stamps. Around 10.00 for full page of them. I hope to get to my post office in a bit. LOL, you can always use them to mail letters. They are forever stamps. I might put mine in a picture frame.


I live just one half of a block from the PO. I will be going there today. I like the idea of framing them!


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Broke, see if your wife could stop by the post office today and pick you up a full page of
> "first day" "Golden Spike" stamps. Around 10.00 for full page of them. I hope to get to my post office in a bit. LOL, you can always use them to mail letters. They are forever stamps. I might put mine in a picture frame.


PO here was sold out by 9:15 this morning. I ordered mine online. The only problem is they charge you $1.20 for shipping. At any rate, I wilol not have to go back to the USPS PO. And that is a blessing!


----------



## dooper (Nov 9, 2015)

Nice pictures Broke. Now the trivia question is - which side of the golden spike is east or west. I know you know. Anyone want to guess?


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

*An interestering Transcontinal Railroad Utah fact*

There has been much talk about the great sacrifices the Chinese laborers made as the Central Pacific worked eastward. The Union Pacific worked westward using Irish laborers. However as the approached what is now Utah, many Irish fell sick by drinking ditch water. The Chinese drank tea and didn't suffer as much. As the Union Pacific approached Deseret, a labor shortage occurred due to sickness. So, Brigham Young was called upon by the UP to provide Mormon laborers. These men left their farms, ranches and towns as a calling by Brigham Young to assist in the final push. Of course, they worked for wages but those wages were basically given back to the Church. The Mormon Church was poor then and the State of Deseret's economy was in shambled. So, their labor helped the Mormon Church and also the people of what was to become Utah.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

*Back to original topic*

Back to my 312 problem. It seems that the drive gear that accepts the motor worm gead is defective. I have torn it down to the basic parts and it turns OK but when I attach a dc motor to the drive gear the motor works good but the meshing of worm gear and drive gear makes a lot of noise and sometimes stops. It is beyond me to separate the chassis so that I can inspect the drive gears better. Phooey! However it may be the worm gear. I have ordered a new dc motor and I will compare the two and see if it is the drive gear or the motor worm gear.:smilie_daumenneg:


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

So you think the K5 stopped because the gears binded. Bummer.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> There has been much talk about the great sacrifices the Chinese laborers made as the Central Pacific worked eastward. The Union Pacific worked westward using Irish laborers. However as the approached what is now Utah, many Irish fell sick by drinking ditch water. The Chinese drank tea and didn't suffer as much. As the Union Pacific approached Deseret, a labor shortage occurred due to sickness. So, Brigham Young was called upon by the UP to provide Mormon laborers. These men left their farms, ranches and towns as a calling by Brigham Young to assist in the final push. Of course, they worked for wages but those wages were basically given back to the Church. The Mormon Church was poor then and the State of Deseret's economy was in shambled. So, their labor helped the Mormon Church and also the people of what was to become Utah.


A nice bit of history..Thanks for sharing...:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Back to my 312 problem. It seems that the drive gear that accepts the motor worm gead is defective. I have torn it down to the basic parts and it turns OK but when I attach a dc motor to the drive gear the motor works good but the meshing of worm gear and drive gear makes a lot of noise and sometimes stops. It is beyond me to separate the chassis so that I can inspect the drive gears better. Phooey! However it may be the worm gear. I have ordered a new dc motor and I will compare the two and see if it is the drive gear or the motor worm gear.:smilie_daumenneg:


Also, it appears that the brass bushings are worn as there is a lot of play on the axle.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, That would be a large repair to replace those axle bushings. At least 3 or 4 of
the drivers would need to be pulled. Then quartering will be a problem for you. Might
need to send that locomotive to flyernut. I would not attempt to replace the bushings myself.

Maybe I am just lucky but out of 15 steamers I have, I have not noticed excessive play in the axles.
Some play but not enough I think the bushings need replaced.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Did the engine run ok with the original Gilbert motor? If it did then I would ask if you bought the full speed or scale speed can motor conversion. I believe the worm on the scale speed motor is a single start where the full speed is a double start.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Tom, not sure what you mean by single or double start worm. Broke said he was getting a lot of gear noise. Sounds like he had a mesh problem. May have chewed up a gear, I
think Broke buys the reduction gearing (scale) but he will have to say.

If his bushings are worn excessively his main gear may be too worn. Could explain the mesh problem.

If there is a weird problem to be had, Broke will have it.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

A double start worm has two parallel grooves wound around the shaft. A single start worm has one single groove in the same space. This is how the scale speed worm gets its different pitch. The original Gilbert drive setup had a lot of tolerance for wear. Changing to the scale speed worm configuration may not provide the same tolerances to accommodate the wear. It is just a thought I had to avoid a complete chassis rebuild.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> Did the engine run ok with the original Gilbert motor? If it did then I would ask if you bought the full speed or scale speed can motor conversion. I believe the worm on the scale speed motor is a single start where the full speed is a double start.


A 30:1 half speed motor


----------

