# Help with Lionel prewar whistle tenders



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi guys,

I'm looking for some help on how to best "Frankenbash" some components of a Lionel prewar tinplate, coffin-style whistle tender. Specifically, how to best mount a "borrowed" pickup roller, wire a proper ground circuit, etc. ???

Please refer to the notes and photos below ...


This is a tender that I have ... a 1689T non-whistle tender. Tinplate trucks, and eventual latch coupler:










I also have this tender ... a 2689W that once had (now broken) an operating box coupler with solenoid and integral pick up roller for the whistle. The whistle itself works OK, but the operating box coupler is in broken pieces:










Here's a detail of that pickup roller, which is the one that I'd like to somehow reuse:










How (and where) can I mount that pickup roller (without the solenoid) on my 1689 tender, such that I can swap over and use the whistle?

To complicate things, I've been taking note of the various coffin-style whistle tender configs that Lionel used over the pre- and post-war years...


Here's a 1689W tender with a single pickup roller on the rear truck. (This is simply an ebay item photo.) Essentially, I'd like to build something like this with the parts that I have on hand (from first three photos, above) ...










I've also seen (on ebay) another version of the 1689W coffin-style tender that uses a single center-mount pickup roller:










Would it be easier for me to try to mount my roller something like that? Isn't a center-mount roller not so efficient when the tender is navigating around a tight turn? I.e., the roller could "drift" away from the center rail???


And finally, to add an extra chapter to this story, I've noticed that post-war coffin tenders (with the then-new knuckle coupler trucks) were configured with two pickup rollers like this ... a 221W tender ...










So, in summary ...

How do I best take the pickup roller from pics 2 & 3 and mount it in a functional way on the tender in pic 1 ???

Once the whistle is installed, how do I complete a ground circuit? I believe that the whiste itself is grounded to the inside of the tender frame. Is is sufficient to have the metal trucks attached to the tender frame with either a metal rivet or metal screw? (Presuming that the electricity can get from the trucks to the axles and wheels, and to the outer rails ???)

I'd appreciate any advice / insight.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As far as the pickup, I can't imagine the center mounted one would work all that well. If your only option is frame mounting, I'd try mounting it as close to the truck as possible to minimize the issue. Of course, that thing is pretty short, so maybe that's not the issue I think it might be.  I notice the wheels are really close together as well.

The reason for two rollers is usually to insure better continuous power. I know that I have passenger cars with one and two rollers, the ones with two have a lot less flicker in the lights.

The ground is traditionally just to the frame, you have 8 metal wheels and axles for pickup, the weak link is probably the truck mounting rivet. I've seen a number of cars that have a ground wire connected directly to the truck.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Your going to have to fix the one truck anyway, right?

Put the pickup roller there somehow?

Wait till the epoxy man comes on he will most likely have an ideal.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

John -- good points. Thanks.

Ed -- the trucks on the first tender (the 1689 that I want to use) are OK. I'm simply going to add a latch coupler to the back of the frame, and a pickup for the whistle (which will be ported over from the other tender).

That said, there's not much difference between the 1689 and the 2689 from pics 1 and 2, other than the "extendo-bar" for the box coupler on the rear truck of the 2689, which could be cut away ... as I want to use a latch coupler, instead.

So, I guess I could retrofit either of the two tenders with the single pickup roller ... same end goal.

(The side shell of the 1689 has indents for nickel "Lionel Lines" nameplates, whereas the shell of the 2689 does not.)

Ohh .. one other minor point ... my intent here is to rebuild and repaint the tender in two-tone blue and mate it up with my recently redone "Elvis impersonator" 258 loco.

Regards,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I need to inventory the tenders.

That center wheel should attach to the axles like a postwar plate.

First and third picture.

I couldn't modify your image with "paint".

The last picture, the truck has two supports to hold the rig.


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## joe7034 (Feb 3, 2011)

WOW! I am working on the same thing. I just bought the roller brackets and rollers off of Jeff Kane (traintender) great guy by the way, I should have the brackets by the weekend. I will try and post some pictures when it arrives

joe


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## joe7034 (Feb 3, 2011)

Let's see if this worked, This is the one I am working on

Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Joe,

I'd love to swap project tips. Glad you chimed in. Can you post a larger image/photo, above? Also, perhaps a pic of the roller and bracket you got from Jeff?

The roller I hope to use is simply a carry-over bashed from another broken tender. I'll likely have to improvise some sort of a mount bracket (to the truck or frame).

Cheers,

TJ


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## joe7034 (Feb 3, 2011)

That was a picture from my phone, as soon as the rollers come in I will post better 
(i hope) pictures
joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*1689w and 2689w*

The 1689w is axle held.




















The 2689w is bracket held.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

That's very helful ... thanks!

A few questions ...

About how much up/down range-of-motion is there on your spring-tensioned rollers?

On your 1689W, it looks like the whistle is wire-grounded to the underside of the tender frame ... the brown cloth wire. Is that what I'm seeing? From there, does the circuit get completed simply through the metal trucks, axles, and wheels themselves?

But on your last photo, I see a copper brush strip. Is that for the ground / axles ???

I must say ...

I AMAZED at how many different versions of pickup rollers I'm seeing on these old, simple, coffin-style Lionel whistle tenders. You'd think they'd have one or maybe two developments, but I count at least 5. Wild!

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Enlightenment Update ...*

T-Man ... you're a genius!!!

In re-reading your post above, a light bulb (finally) went off in my head: "AXLE HELD" pickup roller ...

That had me go back to my broken-parts pickup roller and have a closer look. I had (falsely) assumed this was mounted somehow to the truck. But, per your comment, I see that there are two pairs of "hooks" designed into the metal bracket that are intended to grab a pair of axles, and hold the brakcet and pickup roller through those (rather than the truck or the frame).

In my case, it's now (hopefully) a piece of cake ...

I've cut away the solenoid and the small coupler pickup shoe, leaving just the bracket (with its axle hooks) and the pickup roller itself. Essentially, I now have (remaining) the exact bracket/roller that you show in your first photo. I can mount this directly to the axles of my rear truck, without any other required / kludged fabrication. Easy!!!

Thanks, T !!!

TJ

My old/broken pickup roller, as found, with integral solenoid for box-style coupler:









The "hooks" used to mount this on the axles. I'll cut away the solenoid and coupler pickup shoe, and use the remaining bracket/roller on my tender with latch-style coupler:









~~~

I love this forum ... it's information swapping like that from you guys that makes this site an incredible resource!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was going to point that out, but the axles on your tender seemed too close together for the standard parts.

I didn't think you already had the part in hand!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Darn....no epoxy?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Intimate Tender Moments ...*

The title says it all ... Intimate Tender Moments ...

We're looking at my stripped down 1689T tender (mate to the recently restored 258 "Elvis" loco), along with the whistle and pickup roller from a broken 2689W that I'm bashing.

You can see how the pickup roller bracket easily mounts to the pair of axles on the rear truck ... bottom-center of photo. (Thanks, T-Man!)

I haven't cleaned or fiddled with the whistle/motor itself yet, though I did put power to it to confirm that it does work OK.

The tender shell cleaned up nicely with an EasyOff strip and a Dremel stainless brush buff. No more veins of rust. The nickel journal boxes buffed up nice and shiny, too.

I gave a quick buff to the wheels and the trucks, and then a quick Gun Blue swap to darken and even the black finish on those.

Elvis is getting excited to have a playmate!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nice and neat all laid out with surgical precision.:thumbsup:

Keep an eye on blue comet on ebay there was a junker tender on it the other day.

I know you don't want to purchase one but it had a good color picture of the blue you want to use.

I don't know if it is still listed.

edit, no it is gone, it was the old type tender, it needed work. But the color was perfect.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Search completed listings if you want to find it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Yikes! I saw two (individual) 263 comet tenders each with missing wheels/trucks that went for $98 and $112. Expensive stuff!!!

I like that Vanderbilt tender look. But for my little Elvis-impersonator loco, I think my wallet dictates I stick with the lowly 1689T/W coffin tender. Remember, my theme on this project is "cheesy celebrity look-alikes"!

TJ


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## joe7034 (Feb 3, 2011)

Sorry it took so long, here are the pictures, looks like you have things well in hand
joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Joe,

Is that the bracket/roller that you received from Jeff Kane? It's identical to what I ended up with, after I cut my unneeded coupler solenoid and shoe away.

I still don't know whether I'll be OK simply leaving the whistle grounded to the frame, frame to trucks, trucks to axles/wheels. Or, I might opt to run a ground wire from the whistle directly to the pickup roller bracket (the part that clips to the axles).

What are you thinking in regards to that???

As a related sidenote, I've removed my trucks for the restoration work (originally rivetted to the frame), and will reinstall them with a stainless screw and a nylon-insert lock nut. I'm not sure if that will offer 100% conductivity from the frame to the truck.

TJ


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## joe7034 (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes they are the brackets Jeff sent me, I also bought the whistle assembly off of him. There were no ground wires on the one I got, just the 2 wires for the trucks, and the whistle screwed right to the frame
joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're going to use that mounting, I'd recommend running a wire from the truck frame to the body of the tender.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you're going to use that mounting, I'd recommend running a wire from the truck frame to the body of the tender.


John,

After consideration (and a little multi-meter experimentation), I agree. In fact, I'll run the wire through the frame, directly to the block-body of the whistle itself. A "direct" ground, so to speak.

As a silly side effect, my frame prime and paint work diminishes conductivity in way of where I have attachment screws, etc. I checked on a few other recently-refinished cars. Paint is a good insulator! And, furthermore, I'll be remounting the trucks with screws and nylon washers and nylon-insert lock nuts. Again ... good insulators.

So ... good call ... hard-wire ground it shall be!

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

My whistle conversion of a 1689T tender continues with paint work, echoing the "Blue Comet" celebrity look-alike theme from my 258 loco redo ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I like the blue look, that's a great looking set.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, John. I think it all came together nicely. Details follow ...


Here, I've mounted the whistle to the frame with a "hot" wire from the pickup roller to the top motor brush can. I've also run a new "hard-wired" ground wire from the whistle casing (in way of the control solenoid) to the bracket that is used to mount the pickup roller. I should note that the roller itself is insulated from the rest of the bracket. The ground wire trasmits power from the whistle to the bracket, from there to the axles, wheels, and outer track rails.











Here we can see the under-carriage installation:











And the finished tender ... originally a 1689T, but now sporting a whistle and a Blue Comet "Elvis celebrity look-alike" paint scheme:



















Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gee, that's so shiny inside it's a shame to put the top on! 

Let's see the whole rig going down the tracks.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Let's see the whole rig going down the tracks.


Or, as I like to call it ...

"Love me tender. Love me sweet. Never let me go. You have made my life complete. And I love you so." 

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=77000&postcount=84

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When I take one of these tenders apart, I don't bend the tabs over upon reassembly. I give one tab on each side a slight twist to keep everything together. This reduces the stress on the tabs and also leaves 2 tabs on each side unbent. 

BB


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Good tip, Bruce!


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