# Granite Gorge & Northern



## JerryH

This will be my first model railroad. I did put an HO oval on a piece of 4x8 once when my children were young that the Christmas tree centered in, but I considered that a toy train. My, how things have changed in the last 30 + years.

When I was a child, my father started but never completed the Central Midland. I wanted the GG&N. He won the discussion. I made up my mind 47 years ago that I would build one someday. That day has come. It is probably too much for a first timer, but this what I want. We will see.

I spent the first 2 months reading all I could while redesigning the original Atlas plan. This includes 22 minimum radius, less than 3% grades, semi-portable, reduced busy look, DCC, and completely automated computer contol.

I am not into operations, so the design is to display and let 'em run. Ultimately, I hope to have 2 trains, running in opposite directions, on each mainline and a local freight interspersing between both mainlines. With the mountain area covering half the mainlines, it should be quite fascinating to watch. With three passing tracks and computer control I think it can be possible.

I started construction 2 months ago. Please look at the pictures and give your experienced opinions. I may have gone too far already to correct any serious problems. The track is not tested and no scenery is done yet. This is my last chance to fix a poor plan.


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## txdyna65

Im by far any kind of expert Jerry, just getting back into this like you. Just wanted to say welcome to the forum, where in TX are you? Have you decided on a DCC system yet? Interesting layout, I'll let the more experienced comment on it, but it looks like you did some nice benchwork already.


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## JerryH

This is my first attempt. I was never into model railroading before, but my dad did let me run a train once in awhile when I was little. Thank you, San Antonio, Digitrax SuperChief


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## Ranger

Welcome to the forum. You look to be off to a great start cause the framework looks great.


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## JerryH

Here are some additional pictures.


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## sstlaure

Looks like you've got it well under control. Great work.


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## JerryH

Some more pictures. It looks a lot better spread out a little than what I found on the internet. Original design was 5x9 and I went to 6x11. It takes up a lot of room though.


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## tjcruiser

Jerry,

Welcome to the forum!

Wow ... that's an ambitious undertaking, and one unlike most of what we've seen here ... in a fun/challenging way ...

1. A folding layout, and a big one at that. Couple of quesitons here (mostly out of curiosity) ...

I assume you have to remove (unbolt) all of the legs for the stowed fold?

You'll have to run power feeders to both sides of the track ... that's the easy part. But, have you thought through rail alignment when the table is unfolded and setup? There's typically not too much play/slop in a piano hinge, however, with changes in humidity and thermal expansion, you might run into some issues with improper rail alignment at the juncture ... it doesn't take much to throw a train car off the track.

2. I like the "cut and stretch" plywood tabletop method you're using. We've only had a few of those here on our forum, however, I think the method offers lots of merits, with a lot less frustration and mess than traditional buildup (foam, plaster, etc.)

3. I strongly suggest you put some sort of threaded adjustable foot at the bottom of each leg. Floors are never really level/planar. If each leg has an adjustable range of say +/- 1/2", I think you'll save yourself aggravation in the long run. Several guys here have used T-threaded nuts fit into a hole drilled into a solid block ... you could easily add something like this to yours ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=146392&postcount=8

Good luck, and do keep us posted!

TJ


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## JerryH

1 Yes, the legs are removed. There have not yet appeared any alignment issues. My wife will only let me use the living room for a day or 2 at a time, so this has been set up and taken down many times already. I used hard track at the fold line, cutting parallel to the tie and the bridge assemblies are one piece bolted to an aluminum plate that anchors into aluminum beds. I have a lathe and mill in the garage.to make these sort of things. These joints and removable spans also serve as blocks. 32 blocks in all. I don't have a train yet, but I have tested the track with an Athern caboose which I throw as fast as I can to test. It is my only car and it will derail easily if things aren't right.
2 Cookie cutter bench work is heavy but grade changes are easier with less vertical kink problems.
3 For some reason our living room floor is about the only thing straight and level in the whole house.

I have since added 2 fold and tuck electronics panels within the bench work near the terminal strips. I am shutting down construction for the holidays. However, I will set up the O gauge around the tree so I can have my train fix.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, Jerry ... sounds like you have things in capable hands!

TJ


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## JerryH

Last of the current pictures.


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## Mr.Buchholz

Love the trestles, and how neat your wiring is under the table. Keep posting updates.....would love to see more progression.

-J.


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## Carl

Jerry.....very nice progress on your layout. Nice to see a fellow Texan's work.


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## JerryH

*First tests*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srxi6WsVORg&feature=youtu.be


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## Ranger

Very Nice!!!!!


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## broox

Dude, beautiful benchwork.

Next time you have it out, could you take a close up pic of the " 2 fold and tuck electronics panels within the bench work" for me. I cant quite visualise what they are. thanks!


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## tjcruiser

Coming together wonderfully, Jerry ... nice work!

TJ


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## rrgrassi

Before you fold it, use a razor saw to cut the track. That way you do not need to use little stub track and joiners. I learned this trick from a train show guy that builds modules.

I have a 4x6 HO board that I use at the local flea market. It breaks down into four, 2x3 sections to fit in my car. I used the razor saw method. Works great!


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## JerryH

There are no track joiners at the fold line. A slight gap serves a block boundry. The bridges are seperate blocks as well so no joiners at the ends of the spans as well. Low speed thru max speed, both forward and backwards with 85' cars, unspeed matched AB units and lastly a 4-8-4 with 16 wheel tender have never produce a derail at any of these locations. I did use a razor saw but still had to increase the gap for proper clearance for expansion etc.


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## tjcruiser

Did you need a block boundary at the fold, or could you have run a jumper wire underneath from one side to the other ... with the wire spring-coiled or such to provide the needed flex?

Just curious as to why you chose one method over the other.

TJ


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## raleets

Jerry,
If the rest of the layout is as great as your carpentry work it's going to be a killer!
I also LOVE the wiring. While mine is fairly neat, I still have to crawl around under the 10'X10' table. Lots of brain bumps!  
BTW, I came thru San Antonio on the Amtrak several years ago. We arrived around 11:30pm in a sleeper car near the front of the train with my head toward the loco.
After hooking up with The City of New Orleans to continue west, my head was facing the rear and our car was second from the end of the train.
I recall seeing a BEAUTIFUL depot when I peeked out the window between snores.
Keep up the great work and keep those pics flowing,
Bob


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## JerryH

Because of the intended operation, I will have a lot of small blocks. The fold line was a suitable boundry for many of the blocks so there is no electrical continuity desired in the rails at the fold line. Conveinent right?


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## JerryH

*fold&tuck*

Here are the pictures for the electronics panels, DCS interface and DC power. The small black and red on the interface strip are for the programming track.


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## JerryH

*Train test video*


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## tjcruiser

Let 'er rip! Fun to see everything in motion ... nice progress!

(I embedded your vid.)

TJ


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## Big Ed

Wow, this is the first time I am looking at your layout.
Very nice,:thumbsup:

I would like to see it folded up half way but with the top side showing so I can see where the track separates.

She will only let you in the house for a couple of days?
Your lucky I don't think I would even get a couple of minutes.:thumbsup:

Why don't you just set it up in the garage?


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## Big Ed

This way, but a picture of the other side.


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## joed2323

Very neat:thumbsup:

Your wiring and how you kept everything super clean and neat is top notch:thumbsup: Makes trouble shoothing easier if you ever run into any problems.

Very cool idea you have with it folding up like that! This gives alot of people ideas who are tight on space or just dont want to eat up a room for a layout all the time, again another :thumbsup:

Keep the pictures coming, we all want to see more


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## THE TYCO MAN

Nice set up! Why DCC for such a small layout? You can remotor those Athearns to quiet them down, draw less amperage and DCC to it. You can hard wire those old Athearns easily.


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## JerryH

The answer for "why DCC" is for computer automation and remote internet control and viewing.


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## JerryH

*foldline*

Since there seems to be some interest in the folding operation, here some pictures. The layout spent a couple of weeks in climate control. I have now placed it in the garage with large swings in temperature and humidity over a week and no alignment issues have appeared so far. A cold air mass is due for about three days starting monday. If everything stays stable after that, i'll call it good.


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## JerryH

Well, there was a lot of cold, dry, air and now warmer, wetter air has returned. I did not notice any signifact issues with the trackwork through these changes, so I will leave it in the garage for the time being. At least I don't have to store it or set it up over and over everytime I want to play. Summer is comming, that's going to be the other extreme.


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## JerryH

*reroute*

I changed the track on the town side of the river. Added two wyes to feed to a shelf add-on traditional yard instead of the garbage yard in the original atlas plan. Just one spur into town for small passenger and freight depot. This will allow more town space and provide a decent small yard. In keeping with the semi portable nature of this project, the yard will be removable as well, about 2' x 8'


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## JerryH

*electronics*

One card done(1rst PM42). Only 5 more to go!


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## JerryH

Card 2 done. First BDL168. This was tricky because of the transponding.


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## Fighterpilot

Fantastic job, Jerry. It is obvious that you've put a lot of thought into the table, the layout, and the electronics. Looking forward to watching your progress. One question. Where do you keep the gorilla that helps you fold and move your table around? I see the wheels on the one side; but, how do you get it on to it's side and folded up without the help of your gorilla? If you just pick up on one side, don't you then put too much stress on the legs on the bottom side, or do you take the legs off on one side first? Just curious. Your method may be a way for me to make my board deeper without permanently taking up additional space in my garage. I could add a fold down leaf as wide as the height of the table. Raise it up to run the train, put it down when not in use.


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## JerryH

I remove the 2 center carrage bolts and all of the legs on the wheel side. That side is lowered to the floor. The other side is lifted and folded to 90 degrees simultaneously as it is stood up. The other legs are removed and the ends are latched together. It can then be moved to another room or stored. When I get to the scenery, it will be removable as well in units. The folded width with grades is all that I can manuever around corners in the hallways. It is at the maximum weight that I can handle by myself now. In the future I might have to enslave the wife. That is unless I put it in the living room, then she will glady help me break it down.


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## JerryH

*Left Panel*

I added the SE8 and that completes the left panel. I am only going to do the PM & BDL on the right panel. I will add the 2nd SE8 on it, when I build the add-on yard someday next year.


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## Cape T/A

Very nice wiring!


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## tjcruiser

Are we launching another mission to Mars?!?

Electronics here are way over my simple head, but whatever it all is, it's certainly very neat and tidy. Clearly well mapped out.

Maybe it'll find some water on Mars, too!

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Are we launching another mission to Mars?!?
> 
> Electronics here are way over my simple head, but whatever it all is, it's certainly very neat and tidy. Clearly well mapped out.
> 
> Maybe it'll find some water on Mars, too!
> 
> TJ


I was thinking the same thing, well maybe not the Mars part.

It does look nice and neat, what will all that stuff do?


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## JerryH

The first card on the left is for rail power management. This protects the wiring, decoders, motors, etc and divides the layout into parts so a short in one location doesn't kill power to the whole layout. The second card has the power routed through it for each block. It can then detect occupancy and report that to panel lights or a signal controller. It also reports which trains and rolling stock that are in the block.The third card controls signals and turnouts. The cards are interconnected in a network as well, which can communicate with the throttle and a computer.


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## Big Ed

Well I guess I would have to go to a electrical college or something to figure out how to tie it all together so it works right.
That might take me a few years. 

I like the neat work,:thumbsup: even though I don't know anything about how to make it work. 

It sure must be nice not having to lay down under the table to wire it all up too.:thumbsup:


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## JPIII

I'm waiting for the granite and the gorge part.
If that part is like your wiring & table work, it should be quite a show.


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## JerryH

While the Digitrax instruction manuals are a starting point, it's the case scenerios that help with the fill in the blank details. If you take it in small steps, it all comes together.

All facets of this model railroading are brand new to me, so I'm struggeling mightily with it all. I read a lot and study my plans over and over looking for flaws or ideas for improvement before I purchase and build something.

I am going to figure out how to make it work. I actually fired things up without any sparks, smoke or funny smells. You would think with all of those connections and complexity something would have blown up. Only the left hand side is done but I will get the right done soon. The trains will run on the left but the right is disconnected right now and I haven't even configured any settings on the cards yet.

I knew I didn't want to work overhead. That is why I put in the swing down panels.


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## JerryH

I have some unusual ideas about how I am designing the scenery and era as well. I tend to do things out of the norm.

Some follow.
Some lead.
Some stay out of the way.
Some hear the beat of a different drum.
I'm the idiot beating it.


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## JPIII

JerryH said:


> I have some unusual ideas about how I am designing the scenery and era as well. I tend to do things out of the norm.
> 
> Some follow.
> Some lead.
> Some stay out of the way.
> Some hear the beat of a different drum.
> I'm the idiot beating it.




I hear that drum, maybe too often.

I've never seen a logging incline modeled. I've armed myself with lots of old photos.


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## tjcruiser

JerryH said:


> Some hear the beat of a different drum.
> I'm the idiot beating it.


Sometimes, I'm the guy trying to play the cymbals ... with just one cymbal! 

TJ


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## JerryH

*It's Alive*

I finished up the electronics and set them up. So far it all checks out functionally. I added a PR3 interface and JMRI and they are working as well. I will add the tortises next. Then comes an extensive check out. I have to get the remaining RX4s and some signal heads before that can happen.


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Sometimes, I'm the guy trying to play the cymbals ... with just one cymbal!
> 
> TJ


I am the one beating the drum with my head.


All systems ready for GO Jerry.

10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2- LIFTOFF.

Nice you will have green lights under the layout too.:thumbsup:

OOO Red lights too.


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## NIMT

Excellent!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

Beam me up, Scottie!

Nice work!

TJ


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## Southern

[/quote]


I love the fold down electric panels. i am going to have to use that when i do the wiring for my layout.


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## JerryH

Here they are tucked away from sight and harm.


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## JerryH

*Disaster*

My first run on DCC. Let's just say I can't walk and chew gum at the same time. This is a total disaster. I definately don't know how to run a train. Too many things to coordinate for me at this stage of my model railroading career. But it is fun to watch my comedy of errors. I am still amazed that all of this fancy technology actually worked first time out. The video is 14 minutes long with some dead time but you should get a kick out of it.

http://youtu.be/uoJoXwJo3hc


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## Big Ed

Jerry once you learn how to operate it and get the bugs worked out it going to be fun to run.:thumbsup:


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## JPIII

I feel so inadequate with only 2 wires.......


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## FranksHOLighting

Mission to Mars? I think NASA has a schedule that puts a man on mars by 2050. If I quit smoking maybe I'll ---oh who I am I kidding. Smoking or not I don't think I will see that, but I bet we will find out quite a bit with-in the next decade.


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## FranksHOLighting

How does the DCC handle accessories? I think I need to start learning more about the digital controls and how the accessories I build will interact with it. I decided to put a layout in my basement. I'm glad to read about the experiment concerning temperature changes and its effect on DCC. I was wondering about that because my basement isn't heated, except for a space heater while I'm down there.


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## JerryH

I mounted the computer into the mountain end of the layout. Relocated the PR3 and put in another program track there as well. The monitor will be inside of the mountain, hidden from the layout view and will be accessable from the facia side. This also allows convienent access to the 2 turnouts within the mountain as well. A lot of the track at that end is within, exiting through 5 tunnels. That's the plan anyway. I learned to program a couple of decoders with this setup today also. Didn't wreck them anyway. A lot easier than with a throttle. TL1's are tricky by the way.


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## JerryH

*granite mountain*

Scenery plans. I got bored with the electronics thing and never did get the locos speed matched, so I decided to try out a little basic scenery. I framed up the mountain with cardboard bulkheads. The lattice work will come next. The facia side will eventually be fiberglassed. The height is limited to 28 inches so that the entire range can be removed whole, and fit through a standard doorway. Notice the access hole for the 2 hidden turnouts, program track, PC screen, etc.


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## THE TYCO MAN

Sure has come along nicely! The wiring musta took ya some time huh?


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## JerryH

Yes, as far as individual construction steps go, the wiring was the most time consuming so far. I think the scenery will take far more time than the total time involved in all of the work done to date. I suspect even when the layout is supposedly completed, it will never be actually "finished".


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## tjcruiser

I haven't seen a mountain with a PC before! Looks like it's gonna be fun topography!

TJ


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## broox

are the PM42's, SE8's and BDL168's a necessity? or just extra things to make operations/faultfinding smoother if theres a short?

I've got a zephyr coming but none of this fancy stuff... o.0


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## joed2323

yes, that looks to be one massive mountain you are building:thumbsup: awesome


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## JerryH

See post 42 for what each card does. No, these are not neccessary for conventional operation. One could wire up a LOT of switches and indicator lights on a panel and do many but not all of the same functions. They are efficient for computer control which is one of my design intentions. One of my goals is to simultaneously run 5 trains. It is way beyond my ability to coordinate that many, hence the requirement for the computer. Heck as seen in my first DCC movie (post 55), I can't run 2 at the same time!


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## broox

JerryH said:


> They are efficient for computer control which is one of my design intentions.


aah. makes sense now. thanks


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## NIMT

Broox,
You'll wanna have all that other fun stuff coming your way soon enough!


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## broox

NIMT said:


> Broox,
> You'll wanna have all that other fun stuff coming your way soon enough!


Better not be putting ideas into Pats head! haha, there'll only be one way to hear the end of it! haha


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## JerryH

*digitrax routing*

I plan to install a few signals tomorrow. Since I have both a BDL168 and a SE8 I am wondering if I could use Digitrax routing to run the signals. I won't be ready for Train Controller software for sometime. That software can do all of the conditional signaling. I am looking for a basic turnout condition signal indication without the manual throttle use each time. The BDL reports point side block occupancy to the SE8 however I don't know if the SE8 actually runs the signal based on that and the point position without computer software. I think it is simply a controller without automation. It seems that by using the turnout routing capability of the DCS, one could use the top switch as the actual switch and then enter a sequence of SC8 switch numbers used to run the signal outputs. Then each time the top switch is changed, the route sequence would automatically run the signals associated with that turnout position. Has anyone tried this technique?


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## JerryH

*signals*

Installed a few signals today. Now all I got do is decide how I am going to control them. It looks like JMRI can do it with panel pro. Something else new to learn. It never ends.


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## coupman35

That is very cool i love it


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## YakDriver

I remember spending hours looking at the the Atlas book as a kid. The GG&N was my favorite. 

I'll definately keep watching. 

Jim


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## JerryH

*signal control*

I tried to use Digitrax routing to run the signals. That didn't work out. It works for one cycle then no other. So I went to plan B. I started through the JMRI tutorial which is fine right up until it goes into Logix. Let's just say the tutorial is real poor at that point. Guess I'll have wait until I get the Train Contoller software. I know the signals are all working correctly from SE8 controller via the throttle switch commands. So all of the hardware tests good.


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## JerryH

*low mountains*

There is no tunnel in this corner, but is cut through.


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## JerryH

*loconet monitoring*

A few of you that may be considering PC automation may find this interesting.


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## JerryH

*inner shell*

Here is a shot of the inner shell of what will be the large mountain.


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## JerryH

*GG&N mountain*

Since I am new, I try the traditional methods first. As mentioned earlier, it became apparent that the cardboard bulkhead and lattice work will not meet my criteria for the semi portable nature of this layout. The mountain has to be removable in one piece, fit thru a std door, and withstand this repeatidly. The overall external limit dimensions are 6x3x2+ feet. I got an idea for a variation on the cardboard method. I sustituted 1/2 foam boards and joined them together with plaster cloth in a rough outline. These panels are also used as reinforcement internally. This tested out to be extremely light, rigid, and handles well. I shot some pix before step 1 is completed. The next step will be to reduce the flat facetted look. I finally came up with a use for those darn plastic packing peanuts. I will spray a diluted glue mix on the panels and use the peanuts in shaped mounds to create the general rock suface shape.


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## JerryH

The mountain is going slow! A little more progress with the peanut layer to break up the facet looking panels.


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## Big Ed

Coming along nicely, I hate those peanuts they stick all over me!
They do have antistatic peanuts though.

Too bad you couldn't have figured out a way to split your mountain in two to remove it easier. 
Cut in in the middle and over lap the two pieces?


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## JerryH

I wanted it one piece. It's not finished yet, but it weighs only a couple of pounds so far. I might regret that choice later when it gets the surface plaster though.


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## JerryH

*video 4 trains*

Time for another video. About 5 minutes. I didn't even dream about trying something tricky this time with 4 trains running at the same time.


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## Big Ed

Coming along nicely.

Once you get it all set up will you be able to speed one up like the passenger train somehow?

So you have the freight train rolling slow and the passenger train high balling around?

Mountains looking good too.:thumbsup:

No water hole somewhere?


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## JerryH

Yes, it is all DCC, so I can set the speed of the trains individually. Even if they are running opposite directions in the same block!! I've already proved that part.:laugh:There is a small river running diagonally across the width of the layout. It's in the middle under all those bridges. I haven't built any town structures yet, but I might end up with some sort of "watering hole" building. Either way I'll have that covered.


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## cv_acr

Nice little busy video, lots of action.

One nitpick, you referred to the crossing as a double crossover, but a crossover is a term that means something quite a bit different. A crossover is a pair of switches between two parallel tracks, it allows a train to cross over from one track to the other. Two tracks crossing over each other is called a diamond crossing (or just diamond or just crossing for short).

Crossings and crossovers are different things; the terminology is pretty specific, but using the correct word does make things easier to understand.


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## JerryH

Yes, I have a problem with railroad terminology. I am brand new, almost a whole 4 months in this hobby. It will take me awhile to understand all of the terms and how things are supposed to function. I am sorry for the confusion as I quite often get things mixed up in this hobby. I came into this with virtually no comprehension of real or model railroads, but I am having a lot fun despite my shortcomings.


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## JerryH

*GG&N mountain*

Back on the mountain. One picture shows 3 steps of the core frame, the peanut sub-surface, and the cloth skin. The second shows the ripple effect where skinned. While putting the core up was very slow because of cloth joints, the peanut and skin go real fast. I was quite pleased with the textured look when skinned. This whole removable mountain is very light and rigid. This suits the semi portable nature of this layout very well. I think even when the plaster layer is added, it will still be quite light as that will be only a thin layer since the underlying basic rock shape is already looking pretty good.


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## Ranger

Great work on the mountain!


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## tjcruiser

Ditto ... mountain topography / contouring looks great!


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## IlliniViking

Awesome mountain, looks good. Can't wait to see it come to life with some color.:thumbsup:


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## JerryH

Well I found out what the issue was with the GP running through the diamonds was. Turned out not to be the track. The switcher had a lot less problem than the GP so I decided to look at the power transfer from the wheels to the board. There was a lot of semi solid grease that was causing electrical opens between the axels and the bearings on the truck frame. A good solvent cleaning and relube fixed the GP. While I had it apart, I ran wire from the truck to the board instead of depending on frame routed power. This was a brand new Proto 2000. I am not impressed. It runs like it should now. I will look at the switcher tomorrow to see if I should wire it to.


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## JerryH

*Help*

:newbie:Since I don't know anything about operations, real or practical modeling, I am having a real problem planning my add on yard. I have 7-flex, 6-22r sectional,1-9 sectional,2-#4 R,2 #4 L,1-22r snap R,1-#6 L 6-24 sectional,1-#4 wye and some short pieces of flex. I can get more flex if need be. Atlas track is hard to come by locally. If I need to buy anymore turnouts, they will be #4s. The 2 existing wyes are in a siding track, I think you call it. Note the planned length of the trains. The 2 freights will gain one 50' car each. The passenger will probably gain a RPO next train show. These will be the maximum length of the planned trains. I am committed to the two wyes where they are. I don't want to disturb the existing trackage. The add on table is 8 feet by 2 feet. Any planning gurus out there?


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## Big Ed

BUMP FOR YOU.


I just keep juggling stuff around till I get something that works. 

I have never used a track planning program.


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## JerryH

That is my apparent choice as well.


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## JerryH

This seems to be the best I can visualize. What do you think? Is it functional for operations?


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## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

Well, I finally finished the basic mountain shell framework. One more skin of plaster cloth and then a thin layer of plaster and it should be ready for bedding to the layout and painting.


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## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> This seems to be the best I can visualize. What do you think? Is it functional for operations?


 
A BIGGER BUMP.

Where are all the planning guru's with their state of the art track planning programs? 

I think you need to straighten it up some, instead of being put in on an angle.
What are you trying for just a big yard there?
Or are you going to add some industry there too?

I will go back and read the thread.


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## JerryH

On the left side of the yard, there will be a road coming from the town area via a tunnel near the bridge ends and I need to add mountain scenery to match up to the layout level scenery. The far right side will be for engine servicing and switch tower. I thought the angled approach would give more length to acommodate the passenger train better as well as meet the scenery specs.


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## Big Ed

How about this 10 commandments for yard design? 

http://railbricks.com/blog/the-ten-commandments-of-model-railroad-yard-design/










Edit,
A link to the above picture with the original 10 commandments.,

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html


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## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

It may be difficult to see in the yard pictures but I believe if you look at the tracks interfacing with the yard, I think i've met most of the commandments. I have 3 more #4Ls comming this week so I should be able to add the caboose track. I will experiment more with the design once those turnouts arrive. Thanks for the link, it helps.


----------



## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> It may be difficult to see in the yard pictures but I believe if you look at the tracks interfacing with the yard, I think i've met most of the commandments. I have 3 more #4Ls comming this week so I should be able to add the caboose track. I will experiment more with the design once those turnouts arrive. Thanks for the link, it helps.



BUMP
How are you coming along on the yard?

WHERE ARE ALL THE TRACK PLANNERS HERE???? 

Your getting the views on the thread, but no suggestions?


----------



## schizrade

Looking good OP. I am fully jealous of you since I have yet to start anything.


----------



## JerryH

What's the hold up? I spent 2 months reading and planning, but once I started, it has moved right along for the past 5 months. My pace is slowing way down now. Time and money are getting scarce right now. My biggest problem has been a complete lack of knowledge and experience with modeling. It sure has been interesting and fun so far, despite the never ending little fustrations of learning on the job.


----------



## schizrade

Money my friend. It will come in time, just antsy.


----------



## Big Ed

Jerry, I know what the problem might be! 

Have a mod move this thread to the HO section!

Then maybe you will get some suggestions for your yard.
Though the gauge/scale should not matter for your question.  

:dunno:I don't see why no one will answer/help you out on your yard?:dunno:


----------



## JerryH

I do appreciate your efforts.:thumbsup: I believe I have come up with an acceptable plan for the yard. Unfortunately, the turnouts that I ordered did not get shipped. The store did not have accurate web info when I placed the order. I have plenty of other work to do anyway, so it is not a problem for me to wait till they get some more. I like trying out all the different aspects of building this layout. I get bored doing the same type of construction continuously. It keeps it interesting jumping from one stage to another. I have no schedule to keep, as I didn't plan on starting this for another 10 years so I am already way ahead.


----------



## Big Ed

Someone should answer by 10 years, huh? 


Maybe you can get some ideals from a picture of the old HO table.

The bottom where you can't see in the picture, it just dead ended. End of yard.
At the far end was a round house, that is where it stopped on that end. 

See the mainline along the wall? Where the White Miller train sits is a pull off, also had a pull off coming into the yard off the mainline, had a pull back on the mainline down at the far end. I had a loop going around the back of the roundhouse also.











No track planning program was used Jerry.
Just a lot of thinking and dreaming & cussing.


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

I think I have a plan for the yard. I have to get a couple more turnouts for the end around, but here is a pretty close design I think.


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

Tried my hand at a few structures. 1 built-up and the others are kits. I don't feel the built-ups are worth the extra money. An air brush definately helped getting rid of the plastic sheen. One half of one streets worth. I will probably have about three streets worth for a small town.


----------



## Big Ed

Looking nice Jerry, in the last picture of the tunnels, I see you added a new portal for a tunnel. What is that going to be, a vehicular tunnel?

I see you have Army tanks guarding it, maybe a gold mine? :thumbsup:
Last year I bought some real gold flakes/ nuggets fairly cheap on e bay.
Get some small ore cars and make it a gold mine? :thumbsup:










I got to figure out what button I hit in my camera, pictures WAY TO BIG!


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

Since most model railroads use a quarry scene for a mine of some sort, I thought I should do that a little different. The tunnel portal will have simulated steel doors representing the entrance to a NORAD installation or "Cheyenne Mountain" theme. I plan to have the area fenced off with a small guard house gate by the double bridge. On the RR side there will be a tree line to hide ground level public view. Small trees or bushes will disguise the mountain/ground level joint. I will probably add a couple of jeeps and a deuce and half painted blue. Of course the grass flat area will be uniformly short and with a nice neat asphalt road to the entrance portal and a loading platform along the spur. That's the plan anyway.


----------



## Big Ed

OK, I seem to remember you said that already, now that you said it again.


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern-2 minute update*

The town is growing! Once I get all of the structures, I will fit a removable board to put the whole town on. Then I can experiment with the placements and work on it in the house. I do plan to do some random and selective controllable lighting effects. I will use a couple of cheap 6 function decoders to run the town with. I think I can do that with LEDs without a problem hopefully.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thread moved to the HO forum section, per Jerry's request.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Thread moved to the HO forum section, per Jerry's request.
> 
> TJ


And ed's suggestion. 

I am hoping some HO yard planners can help him out setting up his yard.

Tanks, TJ.


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

I am trying to layout the yard out properly. Refer back to post 109 for the basic plan. What is your recommended center line spacing for the parallel tracks? I tried 2" and while that works for a crossover of #4's, it doesn't seem to do as well with the ladder of #4's. 2 1/4 seems to be better with the ladder turnouts and will still work with a short piece in between the crossover turnouts. I am using Atlas code 83 561 & 562 turnouts. I don't have the math skills to determine the proper relationships.


----------



## norgale

That's a really cool layout Jerry. I'm waiting for the collision at the double diamond crossing. That's a neat feature. It all takes time so don't be in a hurry. At least you can run some trains while your figuring out what to do next. Hope you keep the pics and the videos coming. Pete


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

Last town update for awhile, getting back on the yard construction. Nothing permanent on the arrangement until I make the removable mounting panel.


----------



## THE TYCO MAN

Looking great Jerry! Keep it up.


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern*

I settled on the 2 & 1/4 inch spacing and started the roadbed.


----------



## dannyrandomstate

I really dig the angle of the yard. Still leaves room on each side for buildings or landscaping. The progress is nice!


----------



## JerryH

*wiring auto reverse*

Refer to post 121. I am planning the wiring for the yard. The entire yard will be on one tail of a wye. Double gap rails exist at the junction of the yard table and the main layout on both tops of the wye.

The plan
Digitrax SC feeds two PM42s which create sub-district zones A-H
each feeding four blocks 1-4
I have two unused blocks D4 and A3
I would like to use the A3 block on one side of the AR1 (or whatever brand works best) and the other side feeding the whole yard.
The adjacent blocks feeding the yard are H4 and A1(the other parts of the wye)
Will this work right, or must I use one of the other wye blocks to feed the reverser? I think the reverser just needs to sense a polarity short and it doesn't care where the reference is from or is that wrong?


----------



## mackdonn

:appl: My God!!! Bravo!!!! 10 thumbs up!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsupR.I.P. Roger Ebert) You have documented your layout process from day one and hit all the important aspects for those of us that are using similar technics. You started 6 months after me and have surpassed me (wiring and mountain building) mostly because of my fear of the unknown because this is my first layout also. I'm going to try your method of mountain building because I am sooo ready to start doing scenery. Once again kudo's to you and your layout!!!!!!


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## norgale

I'd try something like this Jerry. You need a nice long siding in the yard for that passenger train I think. Pete


----------



## norgale

Jerry I looked at the removable bridge starting with #31 . Do I see this right in that the power to the bridge tracks goes up in the middle pylon and the ends of the bridge fit into the holes in the plates attached to the table? Do you have a dead spot before the ends of the track so trains can't go over the edge if the bridge is removed? I think I can come up with a good connection from what you have done. Thanks for the help. Pete


----------



## JerryH

No dead spots. If the bridge washes out, there's going to be a train wreck!!


----------



## norgale

Oooooooohhhhhhh! Nnnnoooooooooooo!


----------



## JerryH

*granite gorge & northern*

The yard is not finished with the track laying, but it is under power and operational. I picked up a new PM42 for $30!!!! at a local train show this past weekend. It is fed by the unused A3 block from the main layout. I set it for auto-reverse on zone A and it works really slick. I relocated the power plant from the town and a coaling tower will go next to the water tank. A spur between these will supply the coal. A caboose loop and engine facility will be added there as well. When my DCS200 returns from repair, I will convert the Zephyr to an AR booster for the yard. This will then become the yard throttle as well as a spare if the main goes down or a bench unit as needed.










Even the long passenger train fits wholly on the yard table!


----------



## tjcruiser

Jerry,

I like the freight yard layout.

A word of caution on the table construction, though. Do consider adding some bracing to the upper portion of those legs. As it looks, an accidental toe/shin bump might flex one in, to the point where the whol table topples over. Better safe than sorry?

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Jerry,
> 
> I like the freight yard layout.
> 
> A word of caution on the table construction, though. Do consider adding some bracing to the upper portion of those legs. As it looks, an accidental toe/shin bump might flex one in, to the point where the whol table topples over. Better safe than sorry?
> 
> TJ


I think the legs are just helper legs.
It looks like where it is attached to the table that section is screwed in to the table itself. It looks like it is butted right up against the other table and the 2x4 is screwed into it so it can't lean anyway.

But I guess a little more bracing couldn't hurt any.


----------



## norgale

Jerry ya got that yard backwards or something. You now have to move the passenger train to get any other train out of the yard or into it. It's blocking the whole yard. Pete


----------



## JerryH

Passenger is first out, last in. About the only way I could fit it within the specs of the table size. It is almost twice as long as any of the freights. It belongs on the mainline speeding along all the time. The legs are secondary support and will be eventually discarded. The add-on attaches to the main table with carriage bolts and will brace against the main legs later. All the trains were parked in the yard for a test fit and a little Texas Hold'em between the engineers.


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Have the same situation on mine, I'm even shorter, probably limited to 4 cars, maybe 5 before it will be into the main line switch. If I want to store a long one I'd have to use 2 sidings.
If you saw my super bowl train test, even that was on the main by the engine & maybe 2 cars, 13 box cars engine & caboose.
BTW, I love your wiring ! :thumbsup: Rich.


----------



## JerryH

Thanks. The wiring was critical due to the many functions that will be employed. I had to spend a lot of time in planning and implementation or it would have been a nightmare to figure it out if something was done wrong.


----------



## norgale

MO pitchers please! Pete


----------



## JerryH

OK, here is a picture. Not much is new. I added the tunnel portals and have started putting on the hydracal to cover the exposed cloth grain on the mountain.


----------



## Prospect193

Looking good!!!!


----------



## norgale

Yes it is. Good going Jerry. Pete


----------



## Big Ed

You can do a lot of airbrushing with that compressor. 

Looking good, are you going to add anything else to the yard?

As your looking at the picture it looks like you can fit some more sidings on there.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N CTC Panel*

Even though this layout will be completely automated via a PC someday, I decided I would make a CTC manual operation panel. Ed, you can see on the outline that there will be some more track in the yard. The panel will have push button turnout control, point position LEDs, and block occupancy LEDs all based on reported rather than assumed controls. None of this will raise a compatibility issue with the auto control later. The panel will be on an eight foot tether for portability. The pictures show the tortoise wiring (8 wires for control, frog power and LED wiring) and one of 6 25 pin interconnects. It will take approximately 300 soldered wire connections to make this CTC functional. This is why it was a lot easier to install the electronic cards instead. Oh well, I just want to see if I can do it.


----------



## Big Ed

That sounds like an electrical nightmare, but I know when your all done it will all be nice and neat. :thumbsup:


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N CTC Panel*

Not this time! The inside of the panel will be a rats nest! With all of the connections scattered and in a tight space, I am verifying functionality as I solder it up. So far, so good. I have the main table turnout buttons and point position LEDs done. I am doing the block LEDs now. I should have it finished tomorrow. 64 connections to go. It will remain half done since I don't have the electronics for the yard. That part will be dead, but I have provisioned the panel for it, should I decide to convert it from mechanical control. That will be a long time, if ever.
Here are the before wiring pictures.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N CTC Panel*

It is done and ready for running. Tests OK. The large LEDs are blocks. Yellow and Green for the main line routes and Red for branch lines. The small LEDs are point position, green for main and red for spur . Red push buttons are main turnouts and black are for the yard. Couple of pictures for those that think you want to build one. Rats nest, power on , and ready. I will try a little video later as this so cool to see in operation.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N CTC Panel*

Here is an 8 minute video showing the CTC in operation. The first 3 minutes are dark so that the LEDs are very visible then some light is added for the remaining time. This is neat!


----------



## Big Ed

Cool, it works. :thumbsup:

We can see the colors fine.
Beam me up Scottie. :thumbsup:


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Thats pretty cool, I'm going to guess that you are somehow involved with computers 
I used to say wiring wasn't rocket science, pretty basic stuff , you have your hot & your neutral complete the circuit & wa la, you have power.
Now that all these circuit boards are involved I'm lost, I know it all comes down to the same basics but whats going on in the boards is a mystery to me.
At least you have the nest underneath, I feel better now! Rich


----------



## JerryH

I could have made it a lot neater, but this was just an experiment. Now that I have used it a couple of times, I may decide to make it permanent. I guess I should have done it correctly initially. It would take quite some time to reroute that many wires correctly with no real benefit. I will probably just put a back cover on it and hide it all! Right now, if something fails, it is easy to fix without having to undress the cabling.


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

See all your other work was super neat :thumbsup: mine on the otherhand needs a little help (a little huh)  I was actually trying to be neat, cover it up, it will be our secrete, I will just not let anyone go under my tables, so my mess will be for the boards eyes only!  Rich.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N CTC Panel*

Another video with the CTC panel + Zephyr + DC pack.


----------



## JerryH

Well, I found the annoying click that I thought was circuit breaker tripping. It wasn't electrical at all, even though I had just done a bunch of it with the new CTC installation. It turn out to be the cab of the Northern hitting a signal mast at the entrance to a curve. It had been knocked out of position.


----------



## JerryH

*Granite Gorge and Northern reroute*

Another video. About 8 minutes.


----------



## tjcruiser

Nice job on the control panel, Jerry! Front looks crisp, clear. Back looks like a mouse's nest with all those wires ... glad you kept it all in order during the wiring puzzle!

TJ


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## Big Ed

Works good Jerry. :thumbsup:

Now I want to see the yard work , when you back up I guess you have to work the throttle right?

The mountain crack is barely visible to us, when you paint it and add scenery we probably won't even see it.

I also want to see 4 trains going around while your switching too. 
We might get a train crash yet.


----------



## JerryH

At TJs suggestion, I added some leveling casters to the legs as it is nice to roll the layout into the middle of the garage when the car is out. Also, my garage is not level as the trains had a harder time going up hill on one end of the layout. This solved both problems.


----------



## tjcruiser

Me? I'm humbled.

Great progress on the layout. At the risk of having the birds use your car for target practice, I'm hopeful you'll get great use out of the trains and garage setup!

TJ


----------



## JerryH

I added some fascia today. It helps locate the mountain halves when I put it in place and keeps the trains off the floor.


----------



## JerryH

Big Ed, I tried again to get you a train wreck and I came close. hwell:


----------



## Big Ed

:appl:

Well put the mountain back on maybe then they will crash. While your running 5 trains and switching them at the same time. 

Once it is all set up will the computer stop a crash automatically?
I see plenty to keep you busy yet. Where is the mountain? You can finish the other little hillside. Add the river, light the town up, add trees and bushes and grass, don't forget to add a bunch of we little people. Working track signals that run off the computer? While your at it, working traffic signals and crossing lights. (with bells)

It would have been nice to add the roads that electrically operate cars and trucks around the layout. I forget what they are called and couldn't find a picture. 
Like the old Aurora race tracks. Then you would have cars & trucks also running around the layout. ( more chance of a train hitting a semi just like in real life) 

I will think of more to keep you busy and when you run out of things to do there is always the expansion you can add on. :smilie_daumenpos:

Looking good Jerry, next video is it possible to raise and back up the camera a little?
Be nice to see the whole thing in one shot. What are you putting the camera on? I made a little foam box to secure the camera and put it on top of my ladder. Though I can't get the whole layout in even then.


----------



## JerryH

Once I get TrainController, it can prevent a collision, run anything and everything on the layout. Yes, there is still a lot of scenery work to do. I might put in a working crossing on the backside for the road into the mountain. I have thought about some moving vehicles in the town but its not congested enough for a traffic light. No More expansions. I wanted to be close to track level for this video. Normally, I put the camera on a tripod.


----------



## hoscale37

Nice layout and control board. 

I know that for you, you know which buttons and wires go where, but if I could make a suggestion, it may be beneficial to label all of these for future reference. Especially underneath the control board. Even if it is a piece of masking tape with Sharpie written on it, at least you will know for future reference instead of potentially second guessing yourself a few years down the road if you choose to change the track or you have someone else helping you run/fix the track, or if you later on in the future you decide to sell your layout- it will be beneficial to have the control board labeled with the controls and what their functions are on the layout. It doesn't have to be fancy but even if you have access to a small label maker or if you have the capabilities to print something out from your computer, I really think that having some things labeled on the control panel would add to this nice setup you already have.


----------



## JerryH

This panel was only an experiment and it will be replaced early next year with TC software. Actually the ribbon cables are marked as to function, inside and at the interconnects. The way it is wired now, I could pull all the LEDs and buttons without unsoldering it all and make it a panel for an entirely different layout should I decide to ever use it again after I replace it with computer functions. Since it is compatible with automation, as well removable, it may well end up being a troubleshooting tool kit item.


----------



## JerryH

*Final Yard*

I finally laid the last of the track for my "un-designed" yard. It seems to work with the structures and should be functional as a small yard. It has most of the key elements for a yard, though some are part of the main layout and not readily visible without the whole picture.


----------



## JerryH

Added a removable shelf and an overall shot of the whole layout to date.


----------



## JerryH

Stopping because it is too hot in the garage. :smilie_daumenneg: I would have stopped sooner, but it got hot late this year. I will probably start it up again in September.


----------



## Big Ed

Insulate and put an Ac unit in there. 

Nice and chilly down in my dungeon. :smokin::smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

You beat me to it Ed, that's my dept. A/C 
I have a heat pump in my garage, it's detached & uninsulated, just used it when making ductwork, it finally died last year, haven't replaced it yet, but I miss it on these hot days.
Or get one of those portable units & work away all summer!  Rich.


----------



## norgale

oy! I know how that story turns out. I put an AC in my shed and it works prett well but the half inch insulation just isn't up to Florida summer heat. Havn't worked on the BGC in two months now and it will be November before I can get at it again with any kind of comfort. Meantime I'm working on my solar irrigation system for watering all my plants. I can get an hour or two in every morning or late in the afternoon when the temps are down to 75 to 85. That's not too bad. Pete


----------



## JerryH

100 degree weather is a pain. I do have a couple of small AC units for the garage so I did a little more yard work. I put in the tortoises and electronics for the yard. I got tired of the manual throws. I also wired in the yard to the CTC panel. I have to get 1 more SE8C to finish it. Interesting note, when you fully load a SE8C you can't run more than one per PS14 power supply. The tortoise load is too much with 16. 14 was OK, but the last two causes failure to run the turnouts on one of the cards. I switched them to a heavier power supply and all was good.


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Ahhh the old stand on a stool to get the big picture, been there done that. 
I'm still in awe of your electronics work, my next layout will be neater & I will put a lot more thought into the wiring, but it will still be simple DC point to point wiring 
Another month or so of the real hot stuff, while your hitting the trains hard I might finally get out back & work on the 'Cuda before winter hits!


----------



## JerryH

*Gg&n*

While it isn't cheaper to run 2 turnouts with one tortoise machine, it is better in practice. I got the remote mount and extra extension for one machine to run a crossover in the yard. It is a tricky installation so read the instructions over and over if you do this. It does work slick.:thumbsup: The large holes next to the extension adaptors are not needed. I put them in when I laid the track as I didn't know which way I was going to go at the time.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N Crossover*

To get the frog power in this situation, I had to employ a DPDT relay as I used one set of tortoise contacts for the point position indicators on the CTC panel. Since the frogs are opposite polarity on a crossover, the need for DPDT was indicated. The other set of machine contacts power the relay with 12vdc when the crossover is thrown so the relay coil is not active when the crossover is closed. It is easier and cheaper to use 2 machines on a crossover but I do like the single switch command done this way.


----------



## Big Ed

Soon the cool weather will be upon us. :smokin:

Then it will be back to work, no excuse.


----------



## JerryH

Yeah, it's cooling off!!! It was down to a 98 high today.


----------



## Big Ed

I forgot where your at. 

It is gorgeous up here in Jersey today.
70 now and low humidity. :smilie_daumenpos:

I even had my windows opened ALL day! :thumbsup:
Normally my AC is on ALL of this month on high.


----------



## norgale

We're having a cool spell here too It's down to 94 today. YUCK! I hate this place in the summer. Now I need a new AC too and no job. Ain't life wonderful? 
Now I have to comment on these slow motion turnouts. I just can't understand why anyone would go to all the trouble and expense to install these units. All the extra equipment and wiring and time to install is just a waste to me. I like the snap switches because I can hear the switch work when I press a button and know it's right before I run the train through it. Can't do that with these slow jobs. Guess I'm just old fashioned when it comes to stuff like this. pete


----------



## JerryH

Actually they provide two additional sets of contacts to power the frog and indicate that the machine has actually moved via panel lights and/or track side signals. Also, they are throttle, PC, and push button controlled.


----------



## DonR

Jerry

Why didn't you just wire the 2 tortoise motors together so they would
throw with only one switch? Wouldn't you also then have the extra contacts
on them for your frog powering and not need the relay?

Pete

I use twin coil Pecos with Cap Discharge power and love 'em. But I sure
do admire the Tortoise action on my brother's layout. They make
wiring and panel lights more simple also. 

Don


----------



## JerryH

The tortoise motor power is supplied by an SE8C which can only power one machine per switch command. If my requirements of PC software control and throttle commands were not chosen, regular DC power from a DPDT switch would make that method likely. Yes indeed, the slow motion is more realistic in operation.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N signals*

Well I decided I didn't like the little digitrax signal heads, so I replaced them with kit/scratch signals. I couldn't find any commercial ones suitable for my highly compacted layout which precludes proper signal placement. I will paint them tomorrow.


----------



## norgale

I can see your point especially where the Turtle will operate an indicator light. I tried the indicator lights on the control board and at the turnout using Atlas relays and it worked very well but there was a ton of wiring to get where I wanted to go. These Turtles could be the answer to that problem. Thanks for the info guys. Pete


----------



## DonR

Jerry

I see the white signal heads on your signal bridge. Are those
commercial? If not how did you make them? Look good. I'm
planning similar turnout clear route scheme.

Pete

Wiring for panel lights is real easy using the Tortoise motors. Instead
of the typical momentary push button as we use for twin coil machines,
a Tortoise panel uses DPDT switches. The Tortoise runs til it completes the
throw then just stops. It makes a tiny whirr to let you know it's working.

But that same DPDT switch can power LEDs in the panel thus eliminating
long runs of wire for that purpose.

For my twin coil Pecos I use a DPDT to select turnout route and
power the panel LEDs PLUS a push button to actually throw the turnout.
Obviously it takes two actions which can be a pain when you
are operating a busy schedule.

Don


----------



## JerryH

They are hand made from .020 sheet styrene plastic and 1/4" channel plastic. I used 3mm leds with about 6 mcd. They are 1/2" wide with .25 led spacing. I think they might be a little too big. I would look at .400 wide and .200 spacing. That might look better for HO. I am painting them today.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N signals*

The rest of the signals. The yard entrance bridge has 28 wires in that bundle!


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

:smilie_daumenpos: 28 wires, I think my whole layout had 28 wires! 
Nice work. Rich.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N signals*

Well I put a little paint on the signals.


----------



## norgale

My problem with the indicator lights was that not only did I want the lights to work at the control panel I wanted them to work at the turnout too. Green for the mainline configuration and red for the siding configuration. It worked too and looked great as well as being functional but it was way too time consuming to do this wiring and I knew that sooner or later I would have to take it all apart. Turns out it was sooner so I'm glad I didn't do all that work. At least now I know how to do this so next time it should be easier. Nice work Jerry. The signals look super. Pete


----------



## Big Ed

I am getting to like the way your trains are controlled.
Maybe I will dig through some of the cobwebs forming in my wallet and set an N scale up like that. 
I am beginning to like the hands free operation. :thumbsup:
I thought the way it was powered you can't have any collisions? 

Jerry in your video the first set of signals you show, could they be moved so that they span all 3 tracks? Or is that one just sitting there for now and your going to move it? Or isn't it big enough to go over all three? 
The little black box, does this have to be up top to work? Does it look like a shed or something or is it just a box?
If it doesn't have to be up top to work wouldn't hiding it underneath look better?

Looking good, :smilie_daumenpos:
I want to say soon it will be cool, but down there I don't know.


----------



## JerryH

The layout is under manual control, so collisions are not prevented. When I get the TCG software in 2014, it will be under PC control and collisions will be prevented. Then we should see some interesting running.

The first set of signals could span the tracks, but they are for just that one interlock.

The black box/shed will be painted silver and serves to cover the plug in interface boards as the complete assembly is removable. They are too tall to leave in place when then layout is moved. The boards plug into a jack under the top and stick up about 3/4" so they needed to be covered for display. If you look at the yard signal pictures, you can see them.

Today's high is predicted to be 100. Another few weeks and it should start to cool down. We get about 5 months of weather where very little AC is needed and 2 months of a little heating is needed. High energy usage is primarily May-Sept.


----------



## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> The layout is under manual control, so collisions are not prevented. When I get the TCG software in 2014, it will be under PC control and collisions will be prevented. Then we should see some interesting running.
> 
> The first set of signals could span the tracks, but they are for just that one interlock.
> 
> The black box/shed will be painted silver and serves to cover the plug in interface boards as the complete assembly is removable. They are too tall to leave in place when then layout is moved. The boards plug into a jack under the top and stick up about 3/4" so they needed to be covered for display. If you look at the yard signal pictures, you can see them.
> 
> Today's high is predicted to be 100. Another few weeks and it should start to cool down. We get about 5 months of weather where very little AC is needed and 2 months of a little heating is needed. High energy usage is primarily May-Sept.


OH, I thought you had it set up for hands free. I can't remember everything I read. 
OK, on the rest of my questions, just some of my thoughts while looking at the video. 

Trade NIMT some of your weather he is just the opposite.
If I lived down there I would need some kind of heavy duty AC unit and some good insulation for the train room! :smokin:


----------



## DonR

Nice work on those signals Jerry. I like the
way you concealed the wires behind the signals
too. Just wish I was good enuf crafstman to make
several identical signal heads.

GunrunnerJohn posted a simple transitor
controlled circuit that lights a Green LED if the entire main is clear
thru my yard. Any turnout set against the main lights a red LED
on the signal bridge. That way I need only one signal head. 
And that sure cuts down on the number of wires. 

Pete

Using those Tortoise motors with the DPDT contacts you would eliminate additional
LED wires from the panel. Yet, the panel could also have
LEDs controlled by your panel switch. 

Don


----------



## JerryH

They should look pretty cool with TCG controlling them and 4 trains running. With all the conditions applied from TCG, many of the signals will be changing fairly often as the trains run around.


----------



## JerryH

*Gg&n*

I just realized that it has been one year, yesterday, since I started on this project.:newbie: I think I have graduated to beginner now.


----------



## Big Ed

Congratulations.....you owe yourself new Locomotive. 
You>.....Electro-man. :thumbsup:


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Holy cow, if your a beginner, I think my status would be Neanderthal!


----------



## JerryH

This is my first layout build.


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Mine too (well since I was 12 or 13) You evidently have a great understanding of wiring or have done the research & just have a natural talent for it, either way, great work on the wiring, it should be really interesting as the trains run around with all the signals working! :smilie_daumenpos:
Mine are on or off! manual switches on everything! :dunno: Rich.


----------



## JerryH

Does anyone know what year SF went from the Zebra paint to the yellow and blue scheme on the SD diesels? I can find the info on the F diesels but not the SDs or GPs.


----------



## norgale

The zebra stripes were used on switchers in the freight yards from 1935 to 1960. The road engines, freight and passenger had other schemes like the cat whiskers and various indian head (warbonnet) designs over the years. Pete

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG...rg/wiki/Atchison,_Topeka_and_Santa_Fe_Railway

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Santa_Fe_loco.jpg/800px-Santa_Fe_loco.jpg


----------



## JerryH

Anyone here use Railroad & Co. Train Controller?


----------



## 05Slowbalt

Nice work Jerry. I really like how you made those lights.


----------



## JerryH

*TrainController*

Anyone use this?


----------



## JerryH

block electrical


----------



## JerryH

The reason there are so many blocks, is because I intend to run 5 trains simultaneously via PC control. 2 on each mainline with a fifth jumping between the 2 mainlines.


----------



## norgale

You'll need a computer to run that. Cool Jerry. Pete


----------



## JerryH

That is the idea. I can barely run two trains at one time. That is a screen shot on my main PC. I am trying to set it up first before I test it on the layout. There are a lot of details in all of the software to make this happen the way I want.


----------



## norgale

Maybe you could show us how this will all be accomplished. Running my trains with a PC has always been on my mind but I have no idea how to do it. Pete


----------



## JerryH

Me too:dunno:but I intend to find out.:stroke:


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N automation*

Here is how I am proceeding. The hardware is already in place.
1 download and install software, set it for the DCC system
2 draw logical track diagram
3 configure turnout addressing and states
4 configure block address, input, stop & brake distances
5 set signal locations, type, addresses, & rules
6 add engines and trains
7 initial testing
I will see what happens


----------



## Big Ed

Have the video recording, so if you get the big crash it is on record. 
It will be a you tube sensation. 

I am watching but not saying anything as I don't know anything about what your doing.
I do like the ideal of running 10 trains all at one time. :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## JerryH

I don't know what I am doing either!! I did run a simulation and the train stopped automatically before running through a set wrong turnout.:appl: So I might have something right.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N automation*

Well another piece of the puzzle figured out I actually got a 4 aspect signal head to work the way I wanted! Amazing It shows red if the points are wrong or if the next block is occupied. It goes flashing yellow if the second block is occupied and yellow if the 3rd block out is occupied. Green if the points are right and the next 3 blocks are clear.:smilie_daumenpos: Of course this is still in simulation on my main PC. As the switch is run or the train passes through the blocks, the signals automatically change according to those rules.:sold: Once I get most of it setup, I will install it on the layout PC. There is alot more to learn and set up yet. This will be so cool if it works on the layout.


----------



## JerryH

Well I can't tell the difference between a "trigger" and a "condition" in setting up the signals. It appears either will do what I want.  A little clarification would be nice.


----------



## DonR

What are you using for train detection in your blocks? That has always been
the major expensive stumbling block to automatic block and crossing signals.
I know there are current draw, laser, photoelectric and possibly more.

Or are you using the computer program to change the signal
aspects?

Don


----------



## JerryH

I have a Digitrax system. There are BDL168s for block detection and SE8Cs for turnout control and signal drivers. A PR3 is the Loconet interface with a computer. JMRI can communicate with the layout. All of the functions work with the throttles. Now I am exploring TrainController to run everything from the computer. I have it installed on another computer and am trying to set it all up before I put it on the layout. I am testing it in simulation mode on my main PC first. The 400 page manual is lacking in many ways.:smilie_daumenneg:


----------



## 05Slowbalt

So listen Jerry if you make this work how about I fly you out to my neck of the woods and you can teach me how JMRI and everything works. LOL More power to you for trying this. I look for word to seeing more. When you do get it running how you want maybe a video for us that would love to see it work?


----------



## JerryH

I looked at JMRI for automation and I didn't like it. I like TrainContoller better. It isn't great but at least I can make it function. It is learning challenged! I am a ways off I think from a test run of any sort. I will make a video when I have something to show.hwell:


----------



## norgale

What's a JMRI? Pete


----------



## JerryH

http://jmri.sourceforge.net/


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N automation*

Well the problems are starting to mount up due to a lack of detail in the manual for TCG. In the simulation, the length of the train is not spanning the blocks properly. Even though the block and train lengths are defined. Anyone used this stuff out there?


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Keep plugin away, I have the feeling you will get it. :thumbsup:

As for me I'm stickin with old school, when I read 400 page manual I lost any glimmer of desire I had to update!


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Well I can't tell the difference between a "trigger" and a "condition" in setting up the signals. It appears either will do what I want.  A little clarification would be nice.


Have you figured out the difference? It is significant. If you still need help glad to assist.


----------



## JerryH

No, I have not yet, but I also haven't tried to figure that difference out yet. I would think a trigger is a momentary or last event while a condition should be a status of an item. Right now I am only using triggers. I've been busy with work and other things lately. I did get the turnouts, blocks, signals, and the trains set up and things seem to work as expected in the simulation mode. It took about 3 days total to figure out how to work with the software to this point. My next step is to set up the schedules and if it all works in simulation, I will install it on the layout PC and see if it really works. I have to put resistors on the freight wheels yet, as I will very tight block reporting to do what I want.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

My email is in my profile.

Send a message if needs be.

I'm subscribed to this thread so I get notified of posts.

Standing by.


----------



## JerryH

OK, thank you. I will probably do some more with it this week.


----------



## Big Ed

fcwilt said:


> Hi Jerry,
> 
> My email is in my profile.
> 
> Send a message if needs be.
> 
> I'm subscribed to this thread so I get notified of posts.
> 
> Standing by.


Do it here so maybe others can learn too?
It is not top secret, right?
That is what the forums are for, share it here.


----------



## JerryH

*automation*

Well you would think at $650 they would make this stuff easy to use. NOT!!!Some strange things happen in the simulation mode.:thumbsdown: Like trains reversing on their own for no apparent reason. I may well go to JMRI instead of this stuff. I think I can get it to automate some of the things I want and it's free. These people are going to have to do a lot better job, if they want to sell this at that ridiculous price. It needs to be a lot more intuitive or a lot more in detail in the documentation and the graphics are unbelievably archaic.:lame:Too bad there doesn't seem to be any good software available for model railroads. Considering the simplistic nature of DCC communication and control, I would think an average programmer/model railroader could create a much better software package and certainly at a more reasonable price.


----------



## fcwilt

Jerry, it's too early to get discouraged. TC works very, very well. The simplistic nature of DCC is unrelated to the functions that any program like TC must perform to be able to do all that TC does. In face TC can control layouts that do not use DCC at all.

To understand what you see with the simulator requires that you understand how TC "tracks" trains as they move around your layout.

Every block must have at least one Contract Indicator (CI) that tells TC that a train is in that block.

It is the activation/deactivation of CIs, in conjunction with knowledge of the track plan and the speed/direction of the train that allows TC to determine (usually with great accuracy) where the train is on your layout.

Imagine you have a stretch of track with 3 blocks in it and a train is located in block 1 heading toward block 2. When TC sees the CI for block 2 activated it concludes that the train that WAS in block 1 is NOW in block 2.

All the simulator does is "trigger" the CIs based on the speed/direction of the train and the track plan. Again consider the 3 block plan. TC knows from the plan that block 2 is adjacent to block 1 and that the train is traveling towards block 2. So based on the speed of the train TC "triggers" the CI for block 2 at an reasonable time, simulating what would happen in the real world. A bit later it will trigger the CI for block 3 and so forth.

If the track plan in TC is wrong or the CIs are wrong then the simulator can give bad results but it would be the same bad results that would happen in the real world.

When drawing the plan in TC you can place CIs NEXT to the blocks and trigger them yourself to see what TC does/would do in regards to moving the train from block to block as the CIs are triggered.

I found this to be a useful learning tool to help understand what TC was doing.

TC (at least gold) IS expensive but it is a very versatile program. JMRI cannot easily be compared to TC given the very different approach the two programs take. You MIGHT be able, using the tools that JMRI has, to achieve all the TC can do but it would take a great deal of work.

I first considered using JMRI but quickly realized that TC was going to be much less work, for what I wanted to do.


----------



## JerryH

I agree with you on the choice of TC. I felt from their description, it will do what I want and I don't think JMRI can at this stage. That is why I am trying TC first. However, if it I can't make it work correctly in the simulation, I will not trust it with my BLI locos, nor will I spend $650 on an experiment. I have to make it work correctly in simulation mode before I test it on the actual layout. Since they only allow 15 days in trial mode, I have to have it fully functional prior to the actual installation to allow enough time for a proper evaluation. It does some quirky things in the simulation that are probably user set up errors. For 1, it will reverse a train orientation in a block. I have never heard of a train that can swap itself end for end on a section of fixed trackage! That's crazy. I have proper block, signal, and turnout operation and they all seem to work right in the simulation. The trains are entered and the length is defined. The block lengths are defined as well and stop markers are set. Another weird thing is, if a train catches up to another, it disappears. Some strange goings on indeed. No schedules are defined yet, as I am running them manually in the simulation. Two things it does right are it won't proceed through an incorrectly set turn out and it will stop the trains from colliding head on. It does not show a long train spanning multiple blocks and because of this it may not prevent a collision at a grade level crossing or converging at a turnout. It must do these things correctly in simulation first.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Manual running doesn't follow the same rules as when running under control of TC but there is a way to combine manual and TC control.

I've never seen the reversing issue - I cannot imagine what is causing that - will have to experiment.

TC cannot put two trains, except for special situations, in the same block which is likely what you are seeing when the other train disappears.

It will show long trains spanning blocks with the proper settings.

I think the duration of trial period is actual "on" time, not days from install.

I would be glad to check your plan and make sure all is well if you would like to post it someplace where I can download it.


----------



## norgale

The only way a train can reverse is by reversing the polarity of the power going to the motor. Sounds like your loco is entering a piece of track with the power being reversed or maybe the decoder is getting reversed somehow. Could you be hitting a wrong button accidentally while holding your throttle? Pete


----------



## fcwilt

Well I was able to duplicate the "reversal" you experienced and it happened because TC "thought" the same engine was in two locations. When running the actual engine and it reached the "dummy" engine it assumed the orientation of the "dummy" engine (which happened to be facing in the opposite direction).

What I haven't figure out is how I confused TC, it just happened.


----------



## JerryH

Yes, I believe the trial days are only counted when running on the lay out. I suspect that if the block detection is working properly on the layout some of this may not occur. I still wish to learn to make it work properly in simulation though. I may at some point put it on the layout to see if what I think is working actually is. I will send you the file and you won't have to try to duplicate the problem.


----------



## JerryH

I am getting very good at confusing both myself and TC:retard:


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I am getting very good at confusing both myself and TC:retard:


I was trying to get TC to mess up, doing all kinds of strange editing and what not, and it did mess up. 

That's good.

But I wasn't able to reproduce it so I'm not sure what sequence of actions triggered the problem.

That's bad.

It's nothing I have ever seen when using TC normally.

That's good.


----------



## JerryH

I emailed the file.


----------



## JerryH

The reverse orientation did not occur until I loaded multiple trains.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I emailed the file.


I'm impressed. Only a handful of Dr.RR messages.

Do you plan to break up your layout into that many electrically isolated blocks?

Also at some point you will have to either change to 3 aspect signals or enter the missing triggers for the existing 4 aspect signals.

I've run two trains under Spontaneous Run for quite awhile without problems.


----------



## JerryH

The layout is already built and is electrically wired with all those blocks. I initially setup a 4 aspect signal and tested it. Then I only set up all of them with only 2 aspect triggers. I will go back and add the 3 & 4 th triggers on them. Probably tomorrow. I went from 1 train to 4 trains as there was no problem with one. One more very short one will actually be in use as well. Give me time, I'm sure I screw it up so DR RR is very busy.:laugh: I will correct those errors since I just ran Dr.RR to see those messages. TO 32 & 33 are actuated by a single tortoise that is why they have the same address and I removed detection block 3 as it is not in use.


----------



## JerryH

Ok, I set the 3rd aspect and left the 4th with no triggers. There are 0 errors or warnings with Dr.RR. I will have read the manual some more to see what the next step is.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Ok, I set the 3rd aspect and left the 4th with no triggers. There are 0 errors or warnings with Dr.RR. I will have read the manual some more to see what the next step is.


Very good! :smilie_daumenpos:

I've look at some plans that reported a great many errors and needed a lot of work.

You're doing grand!

There are some things that the simulator cannot duplicate. The process of "Train Tracking" can be set to use occupancy which is more reliable (in my experience) and this naturally requires being connected to the layout which can report the true state of block occupancy.

I let the simulator run overnight with two trains running under Spontaneous Run and no problems.

More experiments to do BUT I think what you are seeing and I saw that once are flukes that require some particular sequence of actions to trigger. As I mentioned when running my layout under TC (as opposed to experimenting) I have not seen that.

In the past I have found that I was able (by having some things configured wrong) to get TC into a state where it was "confused". Re-starting TC cleared that "confusion" every time. The process of editing those things (using wrong values) triggered the problem, restarting cleared it. I have no idea why but it was repeatable.

Perhaps you are seeing something like that.


----------



## JerryH

Well, when I run 4 trains in the simulation mode and operate the turnouts to change paths, sooner or later the orientation flips on one or more trains. Also a train will disappear. Both of these flukes seem to occur for no apparent reason. I would expect this, if there was an occupied block or improperly set turnout which is not the case. Also, I went through the entire manual again and can't figure out how to make it display the length of the train properly when it occupies multiple blocks. This is critical because of the dual mainline with a grade level crossing track.


----------



## fcwilt

OK I got it to mess up. It's a simulation problem in that the actual location of the trains are not being reported to TC via the hardware. TC in simulation mode is trying to determine where the trains will be rather then responding to where the trains are.

To get TC to show trains spanning more then one block you will have to connect to your layout. TC determines this situation as follows:

TC, via occupancy detection, sees that a train is in, say, block 2. From the track plan and the speed/direction of the train TC can determine that the train is heading toward block 7. It sees the occupancy detector in block 7 go active BUT the occupancy detector in block 2 is still active so TC knows the train is spanning the two blocks.

In simulator mode it triggers one contact indicator after another so this spanning cannot be demonstrated.


----------



## JerryH

I was afraid that was the case. I will install it on the layout and see how it works. Will TC prevent a collision under which operating modes at the grade level crossing? schedules, spontaneous,auto assign,etc.


----------



## JerryH

I installed TC on the layout PC. Copied the files from the desktop PC. Configured the com port and it worked on the layout for a few minutes and then shutdown and said to purchase a license. I thought it allows 2 weeks of actual trial period.


----------



## fcwilt

TC offers Schedules, AutoTrain Drag&Drop, AutoTrain Toolbar and Spontaneous Run.

Any of these can be executed in various "Driving Modes" - the mode determines who is controlling the throttle - TC, the user or "both". 

In all but "Manual" mode TC will prevent collisions, assuming the data you have entered in TC is correct.

When you run a train using JUST the "Train Window" throttle slider (not running under Schedule, Autotrain, Spontaneous Run) you are on your own - no protection from TC.

Regards the crossings. Where are the electrical block gaps - are they close to the crossings?

TC will prevent a train under its "control" (Schedule, Autotrain, Spontaneous Run) from using the crossing if the crossing is reported as occupied. If TC determines that the same train is in the blocks on both sides of the crossing it will mark the crossing as occupied. But say just the tail end of the train is on the crossing but the rest of the train is in the block beyond. In this case TC will consider the crossing unoccupied. You can solve this sort of problem by installing a occupancy detector just for the crossing(s) and make the appropriate settings in TC. Then TC will use the status of the occupancy detector to determine if the crossing is occupied or not.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I installed TC on the layout PC. Copied the files from the desktop PC. Configured the com port and it worked on the layout for a few minutes and then shutdown and said to purchase a license. I thought it allows 2 weeks of actual trial period.


It does allow a total amount of time BUT it also limits each connected session to some small number of minutes (5? 10? 15?).


----------



## Big Ed

Thanks for keeping it here. :smilie_daumenpos:

Maybe one day all this will help someone else.
I am glad Jerry is getting some assistance, if it wasn't for you I don't think anyone else knows about this setup.

I learned that..........I don't think I will ever buy that. 

Please excuse the interruption, Continue. :smokin:


----------



## JerryH

Well so far block detection is working, turnout control, and red or green aspects but not yellow. I also have to switch some turnouts wiring to match up main and diverging tracks. I had them set for mainline and spur train routes. These short test sessions are making it difficult to test. It appears that the crossings may have to be isolated but maybe not since all cars are either lit, decoder equipped, or have resistance wheels. See post 203 (blocks D1,D3,&C4) for the crossing blocks.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Taking wife to dinner and movie. Will example signal triggers when I return. What do you mean about isolating crossings? Any track that is not in a block should be isolated.


----------



## JerryH

I need to examine and correct some stuff on the layout, the signals, and the signals in TC. I have some strange stuff with the signals. I think I will need to put each crossing in its own block electrically and add another BDL168 for detection and also to add detection in the yard. Have a good time out tonight.


----------



## fcwilt

I'm pretty sure you've read this about TC but I'll mention it again just in case. You want to leave one signal trigger empty which becomes your default state (some folks like red, some folks like green).

So if you don't think you need 4 aspect signals you can use 3 aspect signals with just 2 triggers.

It's not a big deal but it can save you some work when setting up your signal triggers.

I did find some signals that were not correct but I haven't examined them all AND I don't really know what you want the signals to do.


----------



## JerryH

I did correct the wiring on 3 turnouts so that C is straight and T is diverging. I verified the switch commands via the DT400 that the signals all are functioning correctly. This leads me to believe I don't have the output configurations set right and/or I don't have the logic correct in TC for the signals. I don't understand the output configuration matrix in the signal properties. Seems like there is twice as many as needed for 4 aspects. My empty aspect is #4 or flashing yellow. I left the output configuration in the default settings.


----------



## fcwilt

On the "Connection" tab of the "Signal" dialog you should see the "Output Configuration" section. While you can work out the correct settings by studying documentation, etc it's simpler (IMO) to just click the little circles next to each color until you find the settings that give you that color. Do the same for each color and you're done.

Above the "Output Configuration" section is the "Test" signal you can click on to verify that when TC thinks it setting the signal to a certain color the actual signal shows that color. Check the color the "Test" signal shows and insure that it matches the physical signal. If not change the "Output Configuration" settings for THAT color until it's correct.

There are only 4 possibilities for each color so it doesn't take long using trial and error.

Did you try that and it didn't work?


----------



## JerryH

No, I haven't played with those settings. I assumed they would be defaulted to the SE8C configuration. The signals all worked perfectly in the simulation runs. The general logic is that red is displayed if the points are wrong or if the next block is occupied. Yellow is displayed if the points are right and the next block is unoccupied but the following block is occupied. Green is displayed if the points are right and the next 2 blocks are unoccupied. The yard signal bridge is a little bit different in that it has two turnouts together so there are extra point positions in the logic for those signals. Everything is done via triggers and no conditions are used. Maybe that is wrong as well.


----------



## fcwilt

Well the signals on the switchboard will always match what the triggers are trying to set the signal to. That's all internal to TC. The "Output Configuration" is where you sync up the TC signals with the physical signals. TC knows what color it wants to show, the "Output Configuration" settings tell TC how it needs to set the hardware to get the correct color.

Using triggers only is fine as long as you get the desired results. There are sometimes many ways to get those results, it's just a question of finding settings for the triggers that work and are not overly complicated.


----------



## JerryH

I relocated the monitor, keyboard, and mouse so I can see the signals. I played with the output settings and could not get a combo to keep yellow or flashing yellow to stay on with the test function. The yellows would flash by but not stay on. green or red would stay on when it is supposed to be one of the yellows. Green and red are ok. Then TC timed out on me.


----------



## fcwilt

You're using the Digitrax SE8C unit?

Let me read up on that. I used to have one but sold it along when I changed over to RR-CirKits products. I think the TC-64 emulates that SE8C and I seem to recall something funny about yellow aspects.


----------



## norgale

What did they say?:dunno:


----------



## JerryH

OK, here is the solution to all of my signal problems. It was the output configuration settings.
You have to blank out the unused contacts for the respective addresses.:hah:

default:dunno:









for a SE8C


----------



## fcwilt

Right... 16 possibilities per aspect, not 4. I knew there was something a bit different you had to do. My memory is not what it used to be.

Very glad you got it worked out. :appl:


----------



## JerryH

Not exactly on my own. As you may recall, I followed the D&J signal thread from the start. Rexhea pointed the way.:thumbsup:I can't remember what I did 5 seconds ago.:rippedhand:


----------



## JerryH

Do the trains have to be speed calibrated before using the non manual modes?


----------



## fcwilt

Without profiling you likely won't get accurate stopping points. 

You have entered shifted Stop Markers, positioning the stopping points near the end of the blocks. TC is having to compute the stopping point. Without profiling the computations will likely be off. Trains may run past the correct stopping point and into the next block, that's not good. Trains may also stop too soon but that's normally OK.

No reason not to experiment though.


----------



## JerryH

*GG&N automation*

:smokin:I need to get a new camera. This one doesn't focus right anymore.


----------



## fcwilt

Thanks Jerry!

Interesting to watch. Now I have a voice to go with the name.

I'm not even close to installing signals on my layout. Still installing IR detectors for my Brake and Stop Markers.

Just FYI the display of those signals at the end of each block can be turned off.


----------



## JerryH

Not too bad so far for my first layout. It has been a little over a year since I started on this. I spent 3 whole days just playing with the software alone. I will get the hang of it with this one, then build a good one. I learned a lot on this so far. Still a ways to go though before I graduate to novice. I figure it will take me about 3 more layouts before I know what I am doing. I'm only 60, so I should have some time.


----------



## fcwilt

I think you've done very well for a first timer. Very well indeed. 

I'm 63 and my current layout is my first as an adult. I started a couple as a kid but didn't have the tools or the money or the skills or the patience to do a decent job.

Now my goal is to live long enough to get it to the point where I have some scenery.


----------



## RUSTY Cuda

Ok now I feel worse, I just turned 61 & thought it was the young'uns doing all this fancy puter stuff . :laugh:
I give you guys credit :thumbsup: I wouldn't even attempt it, just don't have the patience for it.
Super video BTW. see I did a puter thing (BTW)  too bad that's about as far as I get! .............................


----------



## JerryH

:appl:Fcwilt:appl:Thank you for your assistance. I am wore out with this PC stuff. I think I will see if Santa will bring me a license. I wanted to make sure I really wanted to go with TC. I want to get back to the slow pace of the scenery build for a while. A lot more relaxing than the technical side.


----------



## norgale

But Jerry, once the computer can run all the trains what will you do? This is really exiting to see how far controls have come with the advent of the computer. fantastic. Pete


----------



## fcwilt

Jerry:

Glad I was able to help. You know how to get in touch with me if you need anything.

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

norgale said:


> But Jerry, once the computer can run all the trains what will you do? This is really exiting to see how far controls have come with the advent of the computer. fantastic. Pete


One of the neat things you can do with TC is setup TC to run a train or two on its own while you run another train in a special mode where you control the train but TC keeps everything else running smoothly. TC will slow or stop the other trains as needed, as well as take temporary control of your train, if you are about to do something wrong such as enter a block in use by one of the automated trains.


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## Big Ed

I think it is a cool way to run the trains. :smilie_daumenpos:

Just keep the video going in case it stops working. 

And fcwilt you are now the sites official TC instructor. Maybe John could add that under your handle when you graduate from being a hobo. I guess not too many have ventured into this area of running trains.
Thanks for keeping it here maybe it will help others, or even entice someone to give it a try.

How did you learn all of this? Trial and error?
You ought to write a book, TC for Dummies. :thumbsup:


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## fcwilt

Hey Big Ed,

I'm the kind of person who actually likes to read manuals. 

The demo version of TC is completely functional, the only limitation being the time limit on how long you can run the application when connected to the layout.

So first there was reading (there is an actual printed manual that can be purchased) and experimenting. Then I bought some Bachmann E-Z Track and set up a little "shelf" railroad on my workbench. More reading and experimenting. Once I was convinced that TC would do everything I wanted I purchased the program. No more time limit. Still more reading and experimenting.

Now I am constructing my layout. My wiring is more complicated then most because I am taking advantage of a little used TC feature that supports a mixed DC/DCC system. 

I am working on the upper level first. The track is all down. I've completed the wiring for the block power control, block occupancy sensors (current type), turnout control and brake/stop marker sensors (IR type). Next phase is installing the "engine yard" which I built as a separate "module" that will drop into place. The next phase after that is wiring up the electro-magnetic uncoupling ramps (TC supports making up/breaking up trains).

If you are interested I have taken a few pictures along the way:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t3o4lkeoue9ng6t/gI4DctxjI1

Always glad to help out in any way I can.


----------



## wammer

Jerry

I had been looking into the Atlas GGN, but had reservations about the layout when I tried planning it in xTrakCAD and the pieces didn't align properly. I like the way you expanded the layout to use min of 22" radius curves. How did you determine the benchwork modifications to get the cut pieces to align? 

Wayne


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## JerryH

i drew the plan on a piece of graph paper at reduced scale and used a compass and a straight edge to determine the the curve centers. once i had the plywood flat on the frame i marked the centers and drew the plan full scale. marked the ply cuts and put on the max height risers and filled in the rest at about 2.5 grade rates


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## JerryH

*TC question*

So Fcwilt, what is the usage differences between a trigger and a condition? I will be getting a license from the kids for Christmas. I won't have to deal with the 15 minute shutdowns anymore. My #1 signal plant is going un-triggered 4th aspect on the "B" and "C" signals from an unrelated block occupancy.:dunno: The 1 through 3 aspects are fine. The rest of the signal plants are working good.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> So Fcwilt, what is the usage differences between a trigger and a condition? I will be getting a license from the kids for Christmas. I won't have to deal with the 15 minute shutdowns anymore. My #1 signal plant is going un-triggered 4th aspect on the "B" and "C" signals from an unrelated block occupancy.:dunno: The 1 through 3 aspects are fine. The rest of the signal plants are working good.


When ever a trigger changes state TC checks the conditions to see if they are met.

CHANGES in conditions have no effect - it is only the state of the condition that is important at the time of the trigger change.

If two (or more) triggers change at the same time AND the conditions for each trigger are met then TC chooses just one of the valid aspects to activate - the manual does not state how TC decides what aspect to choose.

If you need more info just let me know.


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## Big Ed

FC......I love the work chair. :smilie_daumenpos:
And the little table that goes along with it is cool too. :thumbsup:

I think I would fall asleep on it if I had one under my layout, looks comfortable. :thumbsup:

Nice layout spread you have going on too. :thumbsup:
Wire job looks nice and neat.
This the first time I have been back in Jerry's thread. :smokin:


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## fcwilt

big ed said:


> FC......I love the work chair. :smilie_daumenpos:
> And the little table that goes along with it is cool too. :thumbsup:
> 
> I think I would fall asleep on it if I had one under my layout, looks comfortable. :thumbsup:


Well I do sometimes close my eyes for a bit when I need a little break. It is very comfortable and makes wiring under the layout much less of a chore. And as you can see there is a lot of wiring that needs to be done when you wire a layout for both DC and DCC.


Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays (as appropriate) to all!


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## JerryH

HO, HO, HO, and to you and yours. 
Got it. Thanks. I will start the schedules as soon as I get the #1 signal logic corrected.


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## JerryH

Fcwilt, In preparation to setup the schedules, it appears I need to do the speed profiles first. Should this be done with just the locomotive or the whole train?


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## JerryH

Well, after more crappy:retard: manual reading, I did the advanced speed profiles on the locomotives only. Then I ventured in to the schedules. Seemed simple enough.:smilie_daumenpos: Then I tested them. Lot's of problems.:rippedhand: Just as in the original simulations, the trains run into each other at the crossing or catching up to each other. :dunno: On top of that they change paths even though I clearly defined the schedules.:hah: There is certainly no protection working at this point. The only thing that seems right is they will change an upcomming turnout correctly and the signals are showing the correct colors.This is exactly why I wanted to proof this software before purchase. RR&CO demo trial conditions are not sufficient to learn and use this stuff .:cheeky4: Beware. I am sure it can be solved after much frustration. This is a sad situation considering this is the "best" software available and is WAY overpriced.:thumbsdown:


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## norgale

Jerry don't get upset at this point. You have accomplished so much in the last few months of working on this layout and even though you think you have problems there is a lot more that is working right. Just getting the turnouts to go right is super and add in the signal operation and I'd say that's terrific. You have the trains running,you have the turnouts going right and you have the correct signals going ok so now all you need is to get the train speeds in sync. That probably sounds like an over-simplification of what your doing but I doubt that I could even get the trains running never mind the rest.
Meantime I would suggest that you try to program the trains speed with the whole train and not just the loco. The whole should run a little slower than just the engine so that may make a big difference.
I would look more towards problems with my operation of the software than at problems IN the software. I would assume that the software is ok until I could prove it wrong. Certainly a learning process and you have already done so much. Take a break but keep after it. It will be fantastic when it's all running correctly. Pete


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## JerryH

Yes, I am pretty sure there is nothing wrong with the software. There are a lot of configurations that need to be setup for the desired functionality. The main problem is the manual and the lack of enough how to examples and explanations how the logic works in different cases. The almost 400 page manual wastes a lot of text on what the software can do instead explaining how to do it. It's more like a sales tool than a training tool.


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## norgale

Send an email to the mfg and ask specific questions. Maybe they will give you some more instructions. Pete


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## JerryH

The main reason I chose Train Controller software is it's advertised ability to prevent collisions. :rippedhand:
After 2 days of absolute frustration, I have made zero progress in making this item work.:welcome:
What does work, are the schedules, signals, turnouts, & blocks. There are zero error messages. I have read the manual :smilie_daumenneg: about 5 times, cover to cover, and I don't find any solutions. The help files didn't help either. The RR&Co web site forums aren't much use either.
For anyone attempting layout automation, Good Luck!:knock_teeth_out: There aren't many people doing this, so help is few and far between. Perhaps someday, they will come up with a training manual that one can actually make this stuff work as advertised.:bs::lol_hitting: I quit. hwell:


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## norgale

Well you got four out of five operations working so your 80% there. Be a shame to give up now. Just go run the trains for awhile and pretty soon you'll have it figured out. Pete


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## JerryH

I cannot find anywhere, how to setup the collision avoidance. It just says it does it under all running modes except manual.:laugh:


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## norgale

So try and collide two trains and see what happens. Maybe it's already working and you just can't tell. Pete


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## JerryH

It does that real good at the grade level crossing, when two tracks come together at a turnout , and when one train catches up to another. It crashes trains together at any opportunity it gets. Just the opposite of what it is supposed to do!!!!


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## norgale

Ha! Well that will keep you on your toes until you get it figured out. Time for another video I think. Pete


----------



## JerryH

I have made some progress. It appears that TCG was trying to avoid the collisions but could not. The problems are the short blocks. *There was not enough time for deceleration*.hwell: After disregarding the manual on distance and ramp marker settings in the blocks, I came up with the following solutions. Set speed limits of 50 on the 2 figure eights and 25 on the cross over lines. I also set all of the block brake markers early and the stop markers at 10 inches from the block end. This seems to have solved the collisions at the turn outs and catch ups.:sly: The diamond crossing is sometimes avoiding a collision, but is not reliable. I think I will have to use block detection for it, even though grade level crossings are routes instead of blocks in TCG.:stroke: After that is solved, there will be more fine tuning for whole trains rather than just locos which I am using to solve the timing issues right now. This is fun to watch how TCG actually runs this layout.:smokin:


----------



## norgale

Good for you Jerry. I knew you would find the problem if you gave it enough time. Hope it's working ok for you now. Pete


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## JerryH

Now I have to figure out why the transponders aren't working. They used to work in JMRI but they are not now. This looks like a Digitrax problem.


----------



## JerryH

It seems that a trick to making the Digitrax transponder decoders in the cabooses work all the time is periodically refresh the "on" CV. It appears that they forgot what they were supposed to be doing over time. These are TL1 s. They are tricky to work with in that there is no motor load to acknowledge programming. The transponding is now working again in JMRI. However I have to look into why my BLI locos are sending "ghost" transponder numbers as well as real ones.:dunno: This is occurring in TCG as well.


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## JerryH

:smilie_daumenpos: Slowly getting there.


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## norgale

I don't know Jerry but I didn't see one collision yet. You keep talking about "almost" and the collision never happens. I think you have a wonderful thing going there and you HAVE got it running. So ya, some fine tuning will be necessary but hell ,it works. Damned good show Jerry. I knew you could do it. Pete


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## JerryH

Thanks Pete. I have to thank Fcwilt as without him, I don't think I could do it on my own.


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## norgale

Probably now you could. Experience is a great teacher. pete


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## JerryH

:smokin: It's getting better.


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## RUSTY Cuda

:appl: that's really cool, what you have accomplished is fantastic. :smilie_daumenpos:

My only question is when you get it all running perfectly what do you do?


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## Big Ed

Nice Jerry, like you said it is too bad you couldn't have built a larger layout. You do have a yard table off to the side right? I will have to go back in the thread to look. Will that system back in and out trains into the yard too?
I like how the signal lights work along with it. You need some more?
It seems like sometimes the trains stop and there is no need to stop. But like you said you still have to tweak the system some.

Now you got to get some scenery in and you can let the trains run while you do it.
When you do keep the video rolling, we might see a crash yet. 
I wonder how many other members have a setup to run like this? I guess not too many.

Now I think Rusty Cuda is thinking about his next layout using TC. Setting one up should keep him busy for a few years on his next layout.


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## RUSTY Cuda

Not a chance I get dizzy just thikin about reading the intro on a 10000 page manuel.
OLD school till I die, now if you want to see a crash, just watch my disaster vidios!


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## JerryH

My manual for the GG&N.  It's only about 800 pages. Nowhere near 10000---YET.  About half is just for the Train Controller software.  The rest is for all the other equipment. :newbie:


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## DonR

Any idea what program language is used?

Don


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## RUSTY Cuda

I could never do it, I don't have the patience for that.
It's fun when I run the trains, hoping I hit the right switch, trying to stay ahead of them, keeps me on my toes always moments from disaster, usually it's something stupid like not putting the switch back to the main after the train passes, now that's annoying to me, but no one to beat up but myself.
As I get better the layouts might get more complicated track wise, but go ole DC is probably all I ever use, just too much stuff to upgrade & then all the Dc stuff is just sittin collecting dust, just seems a waste to me & with budget something of a concern I'm pretty happy with it as it is.


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## JerryH

I think TCG can be setup to do almost anything in the way of operations. I only know of about a half dozen people that are going to this level of automation and they are using it on much larger layouts.

I have no idea on the programming language.:dunno: It is all GUI in setup and usage.

There is a lot of variation in how the trains run which keeps it interesting. Also it's a lot easier to let TC run everything. :thumbsup:I can't hardly run 2 trains manually by myself without having a mishap of some sort.


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## norgale

I like the auto control aspect of this operation but don't you think that a good part of the fun in running your RR is lost to the automation? I always like playing the turnout buttons like a piano. If you played them right the sound was good. If not the sound of crashing trains took over. Kept me on my toes and it took awhile to learn the buttons too especially if I was trying to run three or four trains at a time. Have all your trains use one section of track in between running on their own loop. Now that gets hairy. 
Anyway the level of automation here is fantastic and very interesting. Fun watching it develope. Pete


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## D&J Railroad

That looks very interesting Jerry. After I get all my signals operating with TC Silver, I will see if I can get some kind of automation going to at least slow a train down when it runs into a red block. I don't know that I would automate the whole operation due to the size of my layout as you have seen over on the other forum.


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## JerryH

TC has 4 levels of train control from all manual to full automation. I think it is a lot easier to setup automation on a large layout. The timing of everything can be spaced out. It sounds like you would to employ manual control with TC interceding to prevent a manual train from running into a red block in case you were distracted.


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## JerryH

Another video.  This time we are employing a macro to sound a horn or whistle for the grade crossing if there is a crossing train only. :sly: This automation stuff is so neat.


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## norgale

I seeee Nooooo crashes. Good work Jerry. Fun to watch. Pete


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## JerryH

I needed another caboose, so I got this for $6. Put a DH163D in it for transponding and decided to light it up as well. The rear markers alternate like ditch lights and the search light is run by F1. It really throws a beam.:smokin:


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## SRV1

Now that's cool! Now for the dumb question. What is running the lights? Does it have it's own board in it to receive the signal? I'd love to be able to control my caboose lights from my Powercab but I was figuring they'd just have to have constant power. If there is a board, what is it? Who makes it?


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## JerryH

I used a Digitrax DH163D decoder which is normally used for a locomotive. I am getting away from the transponding/function only decoders. The DH123 is slightly more$ than a TL1. The 163 has more functions which enabled the features I wanted on the searchlight car.


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## SRV1

Awesome. So this decoder is like a $25 item? Will it work with a Powercab?

Sent from my SCH-R950 using Tapatalk 2


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## JerryH

Yes and yes.


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## norgale

Nice car Jerry. maybe you could give us a detailed description of how you did that with the lights. Very nice looking. Pete


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## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Have you gotten that transponding feature working yet?

Thought you might find this interesting - another firms try at bi-directional communication in the DCC work - it provides "transponding" and more - might be worth keeping an eye on to see if it takes off.

http://www.digitrainworld.com/2012/10/railcom-railcom-plus-what-are-these/


Take care, Frederick


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## JerryH

The marker leds are wired to the decoder green(F1) and violet(F2). The cabin led is wired to white(F0f) and the search lite led is connected to yellow(F0r). F1 & F2 are set as alternating ditch lights. Yellow is remapped to F1, green and violet are remapped to F0. The way they are controlled are by the throttle settings for the decoder address. Fwd(F0) turns on or off the cabin and marker lights. Bell(F1) turns on or off the searchlight.


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## JerryH

I did look up RailCom awhile ago.

I am working on my transponding issues. I have gotten rid of the "ghost" transponders. and I am trying to end up with a trandsponder at the lead and trailing ends of each train. It seems the more loaded the F0 function is, the better the transponder signals. If no other functions are used, I put a 330 ohm resistor across the blue and white wires. It looks like I now have good transponder tracking while monitoring the loconet in JMRI. I still have to remove 1/2 of the block wiring from the RX4s before I can test it again in TC.hwell: I may eventually have to rewire all the blocks for best transponder isolation between blocks.


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## SRV1

What are you using on the trucks for electrical pickup? I found some on a website that look like they'd work better than a copper wire across the axles but not sure. Was wondering whats on yours and how well it works. Flicker, etc.?


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## JerryH

The car came with wipers on the truck under the searchlight to power a bulb. I removed the bulb connections and attached the decoder to the wiper tabs. Power for the new led in the searchlight comes from the decoder. It does flicker on dirty track. What web site did you find? I need to do some non powered trucks and I don't like Ring Engr.


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## SRV1

http://store.sbs4dcc.com/wheelwipers-2.aspx

The sheets are cheaper because you cut them out. The precut options are the same as the sheets but cost a couple bucks more. I talked to this guy on the phone today. He didnt know which would be best for kadee trucks. Its one of the first 2 options. 
The price is for a pair. He said most people need to modify them a bit to make them work. Hes been selling them for 5 years and people are happy. For $5 I figure its worth the risk. I wish there was a better way but maybe the friction isnt too bad.

Sent from my SCH-R950 using Tapatalk 2


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## JerryH

I removed the double blocks through the RX4s and have very solid transponder tracking in JMRI and no more false transponder reports.  However, in TC, there is mass confusion!:dunno: Train tracking works very well without the transponding. When the transponding is setup, TC shows it is working but can't get it properly tracking. It acts just like it did in simulation mode when it was not connected to any hardware. The trains swap end to end orientation and show up in the wrong blocks.It appears to be the same problem over and over. The blocks without RX4 connections still track the trains correctly even though the transponding blocks are wrong.:retard: That is really odd.hwell:


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

I assume you've made sure that the transponders are connected to the correct blocks in TC - so the occupancy and transponding are all synced up?


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## JerryH

I believe they are in the correct relationship. That was what I first checked when I realized that the transponding was doing something in TC but not tracking right. This acts the same as in the simulation mode on my other PC. I think it must have been setup wrong initially(switchboard). It works just fine with the transponding disabled though.


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## fcwilt

To see if the setup is correct I would remove all locos from the layout (and from all blocks in TC - you can do a layout Reset). Then place one loco in a known block and see if TC identifies correctly and has it the same block which is indicated as occupied.

Once you've done this for each block and verified that all is correct then I would think that it should work.

Occpancy blocks have to match transponding zones and the correct train IDs need to be used, if that is something that needs to be set for what you are using.

Otherwise TC will likely have a nervous breakdown. <g>


----------



## JerryH

I will do that tomorrow. One odd thing since the very beginning, is that if you look at the listing of the blocks, they are not in sequential order. As in the early simulation tests, a single train does not have a problem. This shows up only with more trains in simulation or on the actual layout.


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## JerryH

I verified all blocks for correct address, detection and transponding in TC. No problem with a single locomotive. When I put a second locomotive on the layout, then transponding is constantly confused. The locos are swaping orientation and block tracking randomly on the switchboard but block occupancy is functioning right. In JMRI while monitoring loconet, all detection and transponding is reporting correctly.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I verified all blocks for correct address, detection and transponding in TC. No problem with a single locomotive. When I put a second locomotive on the layout, then transponding is constantly confused. The locos are swaping orientation and block tracking randomly on the switchboard but block occupancy is functioning right. In JMRI while monitoring loconet, all detection and transponding is reporting correctly.


What are you seeing in JMRI?

How does one know if transponding is working - does JMRI have a graphical display like TC?


----------



## JerryH

In the JMRI Loconet Monitoring screen there is a line of text output of the loco network traffic on the screen showing the block occupancy and the presence of a transponder with its address for each change on the network. These lines are in sequence as the train progresses. If I run many transponders all over the layout, the reporting is accurate. In TC with an unassigned loco showing block occupancy, when that loco moves into a block setup for transponding, the loco is identified and will remain so. If it is removed from an unoccupied non transponding block again and it enters a transponding block it will be re-identified. With 2 or more transponders on the layout TC is totally confused.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> In the JMRI Loconet Monitoring screen there is a line of text output of the loco network traffic on the screen showing the block occupancy and the presence of a transponder with its address for each change on the network. These lines are in sequence as the train progresses. If I run many transponders all over the layout, the reporting is accurate. In TC with an unassigned loco showing block occupancy, when that loco moves into a block setup for transponding, the loco is identified and will remain so. If it is removed from an unoccupied non transponding block again and it enters a transponding block it will be re-identified. With 2 or more transponders on the layout TC is totally confused.


Well if it is perfectly clear from the JMRI display that things are working correctly then we are forced to assume that TC is not working.

There is one possibility that comes to me - please send me the current set of TC files that displays this issue - I want to check some settings.

Thanks!


----------



## JerryH

On it's way.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

OK everything looks fine as far as I can see.

Do all of the engines that you tested have just one decoder (a transponding decoder)?

When running just one train in TC then the block occupancy indications match up with the train ID indications - correct?

While the one train is running do erratic indications of any sort occur?

Could you post or send a screen shot of what you are seeing in JMRI?

Thanks!


----------



## JerryH

Each loco has the oem decoder and a digitrax decoder for transponding. The tail car has only a single decoder for transponding.
One loco only the blocks and IDs match and there is no indication of a problem.










When assigning trains with TC, they jump to the wrong blocks and oreintation even though they aren't even running. You have to keep doing it until it is right. 










As soon as the trains start moving, mass confusion.


----------



## fcwilt

So does each decoder (OEM and transponding) have a separate DCC address?

And what do you mean when you say the "tail car" has a decoder for transponding?


----------



## JerryH

The loco has both decoders addressed to the road number per Digitrax. The cabooses and observation car have their own road numbers as addresses. The oem loco decoders have no transponding function.


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## fcwilt

What does TC do when it sees ID information from both the loco and the tail car?


----------



## JerryH

Can't tell. The problem also occurs with just 2 locos on the layout even if they are not moving.


----------



## fcwilt

So if you place just one loco in a block (not moving) TC gets the occupancy and the ID right?

When you place the second loco does the information for the first loco remain correct?


----------



## JerryH

Yes and also if it is moving.
no
As soon as a second loco is anywhere on the layout, the problem occurs. It's like TC can't make up its mind what to do with multiple transponding information.


----------



## fcwilt

At this point I think we need to speak to Herr Freiwald at RR&C and see what he has to say.

I have read that transponding (in general) for some people has been a bear but the logs from JMRI look OK - as far as I know not having worked with the transponding hardware. 

I know that Digitrax documentation has some very specific advice on how it should be wired.

If TC includes transponding support there have to be enough users to make the development effort worth while.

But with no hardware to work with I am out of ideas. I wonder if my daughter sold the stuff I gave her - maybe I can get it back and set something up on the bench.


----------



## JerryH

OK, I am experimenting in TC with just cabooses right now. TC doesn't want to ID them reliably. OK in JMRI.


----------



## fcwilt

When you were doing your testing you were using just locos - not complete trains - right?


----------



## JerryH

I've tested both ways. I have it narrowed down to; if there is only one transponding unit on the layout, everything is fine. If another transponding unit is stationary in a non RX block, everything is fine. If it is in a RX block then TC is confused and will flip flop the 2 randomly.


----------



## fcwilt

Isn't this fun! The things we do to have a good time.

RR&C is closed for another couple of weeks so no rush to post a report over there.

I've got a Railcom compatible command station and a couple of decoders which I think have Railcom support - I should read up on those and see if I can get that working - might learn something.


----------



## JerryH

It is interesting. I will disable the RX in the blocks and continue on. Thanks.


----------



## Big Ed

Did you have a crash yet? 

Keep your video on at all times please.


----------



## JerryH

TC is handling the crash avoidance pretty good now.:smilie_daumenpos: It is a lot of fun to watch in the real compared to a video. I need to redo the loco decoders and the speed profiling so as to smooth out the acceleration and deceleration. hwell: It will look better then. It is rather abrupt right now so that there are no wrecks. Since there is a hold up on the transponder issues, I will probably work on the scenery for a while. I am kinda tired of the computer work now. :lol_hitting:It has been nerve racking every time I start a new area of it. I need a break on thinking.:stroke:


----------



## Big Ed

I hear you, every time I read the thread I think man that is a lot of stuff to learn just to run trains.
But once you have it all set and done it is a great way to sit back and watch them go.:smilie_daumenpos:

Yes relax and get something else done.


----------



## JerryH

The learning process is a pain. But once you learn it, it's a piece of cake.:smokin: I ran into a fellow at a local train show that I am going try to help tomorrow. He has a large layout that some else was doing the software for him, but never showed him how to configure it.  That person is no longer available so he is stuck now.


----------



## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> The learning process is a pain. But once you learn it, it's a piece of cake.:smokin: I ran into a fellow at a local train show that I am going try to help tomorrow. He has a large layout that some else was doing the software for him, but never showed him how to configure it.  That person is no longer available so he is stuck now.


Heck, tell him to join the site here too.


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## JerryH

I will.


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## Kenjuro4449

No picture of the finalized mountain?
what paint did you use for it?
seeing this post has helped me understand how a mountain can be made, I was going to do way more and probably not have been as nice as this one.

I'll look at the Youtube Videos when I get home.


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## JerryH

The mountain has not been painted. Actually I am thinking of redoing it again for the third time. I am going to try something different on a smaller piece and see how it comes out first. I don't like the heavy, brittle nature of plaster work for something that will be handled once in awhile.


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## n2deep

Jerry,
I am very impressed with your work. GG&N has always been my favorite. I admit I have not read all 36 pages of this thread but I did join the forum mainly to talk to you as you are doing almost exactly what I want. I tried to send a private message but was not allowed. I'm interested in the key modifications you made to get 22R minimums and ultimately computer control. Do you have this on some kind of layout software?


----------



## JerryH

Many questions are answered somewhere in the 36 pages. I think you need a minimum number of posts before you can utilize the PMs. To use 22r minimums, the original design had to be expanded in size. I used 6' x 11' instead of 5 x 9 overall size framework. A six foot width could go as big as 34r on the outside and maybe 31.5r on the inside. Computer control is done with Digitrax hardware and TrainContoller software. I did not use any layout design software. I used a piece of graph paper, ruler, compass, and pencil to do the redesign.


----------



## n2deep

Thanks Jerry. Somehow I knew all 36 pages would be involved. Like many folks I am limited by space. My designs are also on graph paper. I have a 16 x 6 space and a 5 x 9 of which I plan to tie together with a lift bridge. To keep access to everywhere I'm trying to keep most of it against the wall.


----------



## JerryH

I am starting the base level scenery paint today. I did the track and will do the bridges tomorrow. Next will be the green base coat up to the roadbed and then the ballasting. Will see how this turns out.:dunno:


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## Big Ed

Jerry did you get the yard part set up and running yet?


----------



## JerryH

Yes, I finished the yard trackage some time ago. Page 17 post 163.


----------



## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> Yes, I finished the yard trackage some time ago. Page 17 post 163.


163 is on page 5 of mine, I have my viewing set up different. I see 40 posts per thread.

What I meant was can your trains run in the yard and switch around off the computer somehow?
Or can't you program it to do yard switching?


----------



## JerryH

Yes, TCG can run the trains in the yard and to a fine degree of spotting or making up trains. I have no plans to do any ops with TC though. I did not employ detection in the yard to use TC in that manner which is required to do yard ops. A friend of mine has a small switch yard set up with TCG and it does just that. As I have it setup now, TC can run a train out of the yard on "schedules" but I have the trains already made up.


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## JerryH

This is crumbled postal wrap paper. It is glued in place with 3M spray adhesive. I will spray it with "Stone" paint. I saw this method posted on a model RR forum.


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## norgale

Stone paint??? Where do you guys come up with this stuff. I do not live under a rock but I have never heard of Stone paint. What is it and what does it do? 
The paper walls look very good Jerry.Is there any framing behind the paper? Like that a lot. Pete

Oops! I do know what the Stone paint is. Seen it many times in the store and never gave a thought to using it on my railroad. Ace Hardware has it and probably Home Depot. Lets see how Jerry's comes out.


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## JerryH

Houston, we have a problem!:retard: The solvents in the paint broke the glue bond. I will have to wait till it drys completely and see if I can salvage the attachment. It takes 6 hours to dry so I will attempt repairs tomorrow.


----------



## raleets

Dang! I just hate it when stuff like that happens.  hwell:


----------



## modelman182

Hi Jerry

I'm a UK modeller currently "researching" DCC and layouts for an N gauge project. Found this thread thru Google and spent a couple of happy hours reading thru it. Like yourself (and others) I'm new'ish' to railroad modelling. Have had a couple of starter sets in N gauge over the years, but never ventured into layouts as I'm a bit of a nomad.

Love the work - enough to encourage me to become a member of this forum  - and will be popping back in ocassionally to see how this project goes. I'm hoping to start something with DCC later this year (provided I can find some new work, of course) and am close to having an idea of what equipment and layout size I'll use.

Keep up the good work, you're making me jealous!

Cheers

Kev


----------



## JerryH

Glad you enjoyed my fumbling around. I am having a ball with it. I hope to get it basically completed this year.


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## modelman182

Sure don't look like you're struggling. As far as I can see, you're getting it sorted AND enjoying it to boot! 

I'm an electronics engineer to trade, so the DCC, wiring and stuff is fairly straightforward for me, but I'm betting my problems will surface when I try to make the layout. Me and wood ain't exactly the best of pals. hee hee...

I'm sure you'll get it sorted this year (hopefully before it gets too cold?). I just hope I can get mine started this year. 

Kev


----------



## norgale

Hi Kev,good to have you with us. Lots of great people here with answers to questions that havn't even been used yet. Pete


----------



## modelman182

Hi Pete and thanks for the welcome.

I'm sure that I'll find lots of dumb questions to ask before too long... 

Still just 'looking', tho. I'll have to start posting pics once I get started with the layout.

It's looking like I'll go for the NCE Powercab as my DCC starter controller/PSU, add DCC Cobalt turnout motors with integrated decoders and mount it all on an L shaped board Vertically 6' with 2'8" width and the Horizontal foot being 2'8" long and 2' high. May use Graham Farish DCC starer sets as initial loco/rolling stock (Cornish Riviera & Coal Carrier sets - both due out this year). That's about as far as I've got with the purchasing plan. Track layout is almost as I want it (used AnyRail 5 to do design) using Peco Code 80 track. 

Baseboards made up of four 2' by 2'8" sections - to be frame mounted.

All of this is gonna be dependent on me getting some employment in the next month or so, so it's still 'just a plan'... 

Cheers

Kev


----------



## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> Houston, we have a problem!:retard: The solvents in the paint broke the glue bond. I will have to wait till it drys completely and see if I can salvage the attachment. It takes 6 hours to dry so I will attempt repairs tomorrow.


You should have used water based paints? Why a solvent base?


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## JerryH

The "stone" paint had the color and texture I wanted. Without thinking ahead, I did not foresee the problem with the adhesive. :retard: I had to redo it. I got some water based paint and will put that on and see if it can prevent the problem.


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## gator do 65

Jerry, what kind of glue did you use? When I did mine I used 3m 77 spray glue and krylon with no problem, I might want to add all my sub road bed is cardboard so the paper to paper bond with the 3m might make a difference


----------



## JerryH

That was the same glue I used. It was paper to latex paint on plywood. I am pretty sure it was the stone paint.


----------



## gator do 65

Do they make the stone paint in water base? It sure would make the wife happy! No more paint smell in the house!


----------



## JerryH

I have painted the base colors for the rock, track, and foliage. I will attempt the ballast and then the static grass.


----------



## JerryH

My first attempt at ballasting.


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## fcwilt

I've only looked at some main line ballast in my immediate area but one thing I notice is there is not much ballast out of place - on the ties, up against the rails, etc.

Some modelers are somewhat less tidy.

Yours looks pretty good as far as these old eyes can tell.


----------



## hoopcoach

Hi Jerry

new to this forum
built this layout about 16 years ago straight out of the atlas book
I will be in san antonio at the end of the month and would love to see your layout if possible

It looks great.

I can be reached at: [email protected] if this is a possibility.

Thanks


----------



## JerryH

Sure, anytime. Just give me a little notice.


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## JerryH

I finally found something I truly dislike doing in model railroading.:smilie_daumenneg:BALLASTING


----------



## fcwilt

I know what you mean. Not much fun but so important to the results. Nothing can ruin the look faster then poor ballasting.

I recently made up a stretch of track at the bench to decide which ballast to use and to experiment with the various techniques I have read about to see which works best for me.

Don't rush it - you'll be disappointed.


----------



## JerryH

The reason I dislike it is all the time I am taking on it. I am doing it a little different than in the books. I put straight glue on the sides only and then pour on the ballast on the sides. After that has dried, I brush the excess onto the track. Then it is finger wiped to spread between the ties. Then a toothpick is used to remove the remaining pieces in the rails and on the ties. Then super wet water and diluted glue is applied. A slow process, but the results are not bad. Very uniform when done.


----------



## fcwilt

Yes to do it right is tedious. One thing I really don't like the look of is when the ballast is all over the ties and up against the rails. When we drive into town we pass a number of stretches of railroad track and the ballast is very neat and uniform - not perfect but very very good.

These folks make turnout machines but the instructions include complete information on how they paint and ballast the track. I think the results are pretty good.

You might find it interesting.

http://www.dccconcepts.com/PDF_Downloads/cobalt_instructions.pdf


----------



## JerryH

Finally finished the main layout ballasting.:appl: What a pain!:welcome: I still have to do the yard.Suprisingly, all of the turnouts still worked, no track conductivity issues, and no derailments after all that mess.
My layout is operational again.


----------



## norgale

Ballasting track is probably the worst job to do on a model railroad. Yours looks great Jerry. Pete


----------



## DonR

Jerry

That's some of the neatest ballasting I've seen.
Particularly impressed at the sides. I have been
annoyed that I haven't been able to get the
ballast to stick to the slanted sides of the
foam roadbed. You have, it looks great. Must
be the pure glue technique you used.

Don


----------



## JerryH

Starting to experiment with static grass. The first thing was to build the applicator from a static fly swatter. After reading the various I-net DIYs, I of course made mine a little different in that I can change the number of batteries to alter the voltage. Most are 2 cell but need to be very close when used. I tried a 4 cell pack and it has substantially more power.


----------



## JerryH

This is WS short stuff 2mm, which is all the LHS had in stock.:thumbsdown: It is fine for lawns etc. I ordered some 6mm and 12 mm today. It should be good for the majority of my layout.


----------



## Big Ed

Nice ballsting.
Looking good Jerry.:thumbsup:

Keep the video running when you run the trains so you capture the big one, if it happens.


----------



## JerryH

I received some 6 mm and 12 mm static grass. Here is the 6 mm compared to the 2 mm. I also modified the method. After applying, I used a small vacuum held just over to even out the tops. This seemed to look better. A little bumping on the tops added a little non-uniformity as well.


----------



## Big Ed

I guess you enjoy doing that better then the ballasting?

Nice and green, would look good on a golf course if it is not the high. :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## JerryH

You got that right.:laugh: The static grass is much less tedious to apply. Here is a picture with the 12 mm in the back. I will put some 6 mm between it and the ballast edge.


----------



## Fire21

Man, that's beautiful!!!


----------



## JerryH

Thank you. Everything is a first time experience for me.:dunno: If you went through the whole thread, you would realize that this has become my "training layout". I still have a lot more scenery learning to do yet on this one.  But, I am already thinking about designing a larger and more complex one that would be even wilder to observe with the PC automation because I have trouble running 2 trains at one time.:retard: With the almost collisions, it is a lot of fun to watch.:smokin:


----------



## Brian

I have as yet not started my layout. It is wonderful in my mind With this being your first , I can not even imagine what your next will look like. your attention to detail is just amazing:appl:


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## Magic

Jerry Keep it up as you learn so do some of us, I'm not that far along yet but when I get there I'll be visiting this thread often. 

Magic


----------



## ronnie

JPIII said:


> I feel so inadequate with only 2 wires.......




following this thread I am really impressed with the electronic work. but I keep thinking, poor little dumb me, I just wanted to see my train go round and round :dunno:


----------



## JerryH

You are right, you only need 2 wires to run a train. I myself, get real bored with 1 train after 1 or 2 laps. I still do that though, once a year around the Christmas tree. For me, I like watching the signals changing, multiple trains slowing, stopping, and speeding up constantly to avoid near collisions. It has been a lot of fun planning, studying, building and wiring this layout to make that happen.:smokin: I am doing the scenery now to complete the basic build of this layout. No telling what I will do on the next one.:stroke:


----------



## JerryH

"Planted" some more grass. I am dimpling it with my finger tips and then a little vacuum to reduce the very even look. It is far too uniform as applied. Another thing is I use a clean vacuum bag to collect the spillage. It is then recovered and reused. This stuff is expensive so no sense wasting any that can be gathered.


----------



## norgale

Looks great Jerry. I think that after you do some trees and low bushes here and there it won't look so uniform. Some little buildings and people walking around will help a lot. You have to look at the whole picture and not just what's there right now. Coming along beautifully. pete


----------



## JerryH

I decided to do away with the CTC panel and its wiring since it is so much easier to do manual control with the PC. Point and click. If needed, I can also use the handheld throttles for control. What a pain. :smilie_daumenneg: Only removed 177 conductors of wiring for 32 blocks and 20 turnouts.:smilie_daumenpos: What a mess that was to put in. DC type CTC GONE!!!:appl:


----------



## fcwilt

Good work - it's sometimes tough to make yourself rip out something that took so much effort.

Ballast and Grass look good.

If you think the Grass is too uniform try varying the shade with some dry brushed paint - or perhaps using multiple shades of the grass product you are using.


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## Big Ed

:SELLIT: 

Dam all that work.


----------



## JerryH

I think I have TCG set up a little too realistic!:cheeky4: I was running the trains today with no problem when all of a sudden, the passenger train slowed and stopped for no apparent reason.:dunno: I tried to get it to move manually to no avail. The horn, bell, throttle setting and lights would all respond but the loco wouldn't move.hwell: I hooked up a DT402 and voila  the loco moved. I shut off TCG and fired up JMRI and used a throttle in it and the loco would move. Ok, back to TCG and no movement with its throttle command. I tried the other locos and they all worked.:stroke: After looking at the screen with a blank stare for a while, :goofball: I noticed the fuel indicator was empty on that loco.:eyes: I set it to full again and now the loco would move! Ah ha I got to refuel them once in a while. It seems there are many realistic issues in TCG that I have yet to learn about. It tracks various things in usage, distance and time. Who knows what will happen next.:sly: Just like real life.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Yes TC allows managing loco resources. I haven't worked with that yet. Still working on the layout.

Have fun.


----------



## Big Ed

JerryH said:


> I think I have TCG set up a little too realistic!:cheeky4: I was running the trains today with no problem when all of a sudden, the passenger train slowed and stopped for no apparent reason.:dunno: I tried to get it to move manually to no avail. The horn, bell, throttle setting and lights would all respond but the loco wouldn't move.hwell: I hooked up a DT402 and voila  the loco moved. I shut off TCG and fired up JMRI and used a throttle in it and the loco would move. Ok, back to TCG and no movement with its throttle command. I tried the other locos and they all worked.:stroke: After looking at the screen with a blank stare for a while, :goofball: I noticed the fuel indicator was empty on that loco.:eyes: I set it to full again and now the loco would move! Ah ha I got to refuel them once in a while. It seems there are many realistic issues in TCG that I have yet to learn about. It tracks various things in usage, distance and time. Who knows what will happen next.:sly: Just like real life.:smilie_daumenpos:


Ha Ha Ha now that is realistic, don't forget to check the oil or you might see it go up in a cloud of smoke! :laugh:


----------



## JerryH

Here is a video with 2 longer trains and the short one. Looks better and smoother. I need a bigger layout. I did make sure they were all fueled up before I shot the video this time.:goofball:


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## norgale

I seeeeee nnnooottttttthhhiinnngg. Pete

Jerry are you in the drought area? I saw on the news last night that Texas is in pretty bad shape for water. Hope the rain starts for both of us pretty soon. Pete


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## JerryH

We are always in a drought. Some years worse than others. But we did get a lot of rain last night and this morning. About the only thing that breaks a drought here is when a hurricane makes it this far inland before it fizzles out.


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## JerryH

deleted


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## norgale

That's really neat Jerry. I love the way one train will stop and let another go through. What would happen if you wanted to run all the trains the other way? Would you have to reprogram the computer? pete


----------



## JerryH

No reprogramming would be required. The way it works is that you define a route in the schedules and the train runs accordingly. The software will determine the position, direction and speed of the trains and determine what to do with them based on how clear their route is 2 blocks ahead.


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## norgale

That's really amazing Jerry. I knew you could do it. Pete


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## JerryH

I just realized I forgot to post the long video when I first started the automation setup.


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## norgale

That's really amazing Jerry. I would love to get the BGC running like that but I need to learn how to spell kumputer first. I knew you could do it and you did. Maybe you should write some instructions with pictures for this work. I'd buy a copy if you did. Pete


----------



## JerryH

Instructions?  They just get you started in the confused state.  A proper set of instructions would take ten pages to make a peanut butter sandwich. :laugh: They all assume the reader already knows a little something about the subject matter.


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## norgale

Well I'm working on it. Ha!


----------



## Big Ed

I like that. :smilie_daumenpos:
I am still waiting for a crash. 

Where you used to have the command center....more space for your yard now?
An expansion?


----------



## JerryH

I haven't done anything with this in awhile.  I posted that old video to demonstrate the sound din related to another thread. However, I set the layout up again last night, cleaned all the track and fired it all up. :stroke: I was somewhat afraid a bunch of things wouldn't work right due to lack of use. I was pleasantly surprised that it all still worked.  I did the software updates today and still didn't mess it up. :appl: I let run 5 trains for awhile and had a bunch of near collisions as usual, but no actual wrecks. :smokin: Since this is my first layout, I am not planning any more expansions. hwell: I just want to finish it somewhat scenery wise as this is now my training exercise before I go on to a much larger and complex layout.


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## Big Ed

You're going to finish the scenery, then rip it all down and start all over with a larger one?:goofball:

Or will you add on to this one and make it larger?
Seems like a lot of work not to mention money just to rip it all up?


----------



## JerryH

When it is relatively finished, I will attempt to sell it or just store it to make room for something L shaped around 8 x 16 x 12 that will be semi modular.  No matter how big, I always want the option that it can be moved without destroying it.  This one is just too small to do what I want on the next one. hwell:


----------



## jrgurkins

WOW JerryH. Great thread. Question can you post a how to on how you made your static grass applicator for those of us like me that are even newer. I also live in the San Antonio Area actually Floresville but close enough.


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## JerryH

Here are a few pictures. You need a cheap electronic fly swatter from WalMart. It looks like a tennis racket. Take it apart to get the electronics board out. The battery voltage determines how strong the static voltage is. They generally are 3 volts and I use a 6 volt pack. You can see the switch, led, and output wires attached to a spreader and pin.


----------



## jrgurkins

Looks pretty simple. Thanks


----------



## JerryH

OH NO, Mr Bill!!!! My 8 year old computer that runs the trains crapped this morning. :rippedhand: Of course it is proprietary. I will attempt to cannibalize a 9 year old PC into the 8 year old to get it going again. The cases are the same only the power supply that is bad is different.


----------



## fcwilt

I may have mentioned this before but when I decided to build a small computer for my layout I ran across this and it seemed appropriate:

http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-ck101/


----------



## JerryH

I use Lianli cases for any computer I build. They are top shelf! However, for my railroad control PC, I like HP's ultra slim form factor cases as they fit nicely within the frame work of the layout. And, I have several of them for spare parts.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## JerryH

I fixed the computer within a couple of hours. It turned out to be the motherboard instead of the power supply. I used up my spares for the newer model PC. This was a little more trouble as I didn't want to reload everything. I just moved the hard drive into the older PC, replaced the drivers, and reactivated XP. I did have to reassign my serial port duplicator application but then everything was cool again. While I was at it, I put a wide screen monitor in so I could spread the desktop out better. Sure beats the old manual CTC panel.


----------



## JerryH

For some time I have been thinking on how I want to control the various lighting effects in the buildings of the town.  Until I had this decided, I didn't want to proceed with the permanent town construction. My first idea was to use regular 6 function loco decoders. However, I just had one of those AH HA moments while staring at one of the electronics panels. Each signal/turnout control card has unused signal connections. Since each connector can run 4 LEDs at the same time, I will just use those for the lighting. On the 3 cards that I have, 19 sets are available, which could control 76 different LED circuits. Then with TCG, I can automate the lighting to suit, based on time of day and any other factors I can dream up.
:sold:


----------



## JerryH

I am still planning on trying this lighting scheme. However, it is not going to give me as many LED circuits. The way the card works, it can only choose one of three LEDs to light per head and there are 2 heads per driver. Therefore I am only going to use 2 circuits per driver instead of four. Further configuration and testing is fun, as usual.


----------



## JerryH

I think I have figured this out for those of you who might want to do this with your unused signal ports on a SE8C. After further experiments, it turns out that I can run 4 LED circuits per port. Here is a picture of one port for LED building lighting. It is the gray ribbon cable while the multicolored one is for a signal plant. On the other end of the cable, to wire it for this purpose, use conductors 1 & 10 for common anode with two LEDs each and conductors 3 & 8 with a 100 ohm resistor on each for the cathodes for a total of 4 LEDs. Use the switch command on the throttle to turn them on or off.


----------



## JerryH

And for those who use automation, the SE8C is set for 4 aspect while the signal set up in TCG is for 2 aspect. This video is a test in TCG.:smokin:


----------



## CarlO

*How's the GG&N?*

Hello, haven't heard from you in a while. Looking forward to your next GG&N update!


----------



## JerryH

Not much to update, just working on a little bit of the scenery once in awhile.


----------



## JerryH

*BLI 2-8-8-2*

As I said earlier, I am in the thinking about it stage for my next layout. Since some locos are only out once in awhile, I thought I better get one of these. It is too big for this layout but will be OK on the next one.


----------



## JerryH

*Y6B*

Well, I just had to see if it would run on the layout.


----------



## Chet

Nice looking locomotive. I really like articulated locomotives, but I really can't justify running them on my layout being that is is more of a branch line railroad and both of my turntables are 90 footers. I only have one articulated, a brass 2-8-8-4 which comes out of it's box a few times a year to be run to keep things lubricated. Saw the ad for this and was tempted, but common sense kicked in. 

Thanks for the post.


----------



## paul1970

Jerry

I just read through your entire post this evenings. You did an AMAZING job on this layout. I did the plywood summit lines when i was a kid. Ran out of motivation and never finished. I cant wait to get to the DCC and TC up and runnuing like you guys have. Glad to see there are a couple of resident experts now. Here I thought I was getting started too late at 45 but you guys have a couple years on me. Can't wait to get caught up to you.


----------



## JerryH

General question for those that check this thread. Do the embedded you tube videos work for you and what browser are you using? Thanks


----------



## davidone

No problem here seeing the videos on my 3rd gen iPad.


----------



## Lemonhawk

They do not work on my win10 desktop. Haven't tried it on my tablet.


----------



## JerryH

They used to work. I have tried multiple computers with Chrome, IE11, & Edge from different locations and they do not work anymore. My embedded videos still work on other websites though with those browsers and computers. Firefox does work on this website. Very strange.


----------



## alaska railroad

Very nice job jerry. I like how you built your grades from cutting the wood. You gave me an idea when I build my real layout. 

I am using chrome browser with my android tablet, and your u-tube videos work just fine. Have a great day..


----------



## JerryH

Thanks. They work with chrome on my android phone as well. I have also tried another isp with the same computer and same issue.


----------



## fulsom56

Yup, your videos work just fine on my Toshiba windows 7 laptop. Also, my 1st time viewing this excellent thread. Great updates as well as information a lot of use can use. Although I don't plan on automating my operations I do like using computer programs as a tool for decoder programming, speed matching, checking CV's etc.


----------



## JerryH

The videos were not working for awhile but somehow they got fixed within a couple of days.


----------



## JerryH

Since the decision has been made that this version is not big enough to suit me, I am going to redesign it again to conform to a class "P" NMRA standard. I will recover all the electronics and buildings but not the rest.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Since the decision has been made that this version is not big enough to suit me, I am going to redesign it again to conform to a class 1a NMRA standard. I will recover all the electronics and buildings but not the rest.


Hi Jerry,

Are you going to stick with the same basic plan?

What minimum radius curves are you aiming for?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

The general mainline design will be retained. It will be expanded to 8 x 16 and the yard will be diagonal under the double bridges. The minimum radius will be 40". When I wire it, I will use a star pattern rather than parallel wiring as that may help with the transponding. I think I might have crosstalk with parallel routing.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> The general mainline design will be retained. It will be expanded to 8 x 16 and the yard will be diagonal under the double bridges. The minimum radius will be 40". When I wire it, I will use a star pattern rather than parallel wiring as that may help with the transponding. I think I might have crosstalk with parallel routing.


Hi Jerry,

I didn't realize you were using transponding. That can be tricky to get working with the Digitrax approach.

Is that what you are using? 


Having the room for 40'" curves is great.

How will you get access to the center of the 8 x 16 area?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Unless there is an alternative to Digitrax for transponding, I am staying with it.

The layout will be a " 4x8 sectional" type. One section will be the traditional tabletop style with one fold under "lake" for center access and will also be the "anchor" section, containing most of the yard turnouts and turntable. The other 3 sections will be open frame with large drop in panels containing very little spur tracks. The ends of the figure 8's will be perimeter edge only. Most derailments occur at turnouts and they will mostly be within reach from the perimeter.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Unless there is an alternative to Digitrax for transponding, I am staying with it.
> 
> The layout will be a " 4x8 sectional" type. One section will be the traditional tabletop style with one fold under "lake" for center access and will also be the "anchor" section, containing most of the yard turnouts and turntable. The other 3 sections will be open frame with large drop in panels containing very little spur tracks. The ends of the figure 8's will be perimeter edge only. Most derailments occur at turnouts and they will mostly be within reach from the perimeter.


There is a newer tech for transponding.

It started with Lenz:

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/RailCom.html

This tech is now part of the NMRA standards:

http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf

But naturally you need decoders that are RailCom compatible and you need at least one RailCom detector to pick up the information sent by the decoder plus you need "bit cutout devices" - one per power district. These can be part of the command station or standalone devices.

It would be nice if this tech caught on as the wiring is much simpler.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I think I looked at railcom before but decided against it for some reason. I will revisit it again as I don't recall why.


----------



## JerryH

Frederick, what track planning software do you recommend?


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Frederick, what track planning software do you recommend?


Hi Jerry,

The one I use is called 3rdPlanIt.

https://www.trackplanning.com

It is far more powerful than the free ones that seem to be so popular - like SCARM.

It has a bit of a learning curve but if you go through the tutorials it quickly becomes clear.

Programs like SCARM have you drawing your plan using pieces of track even when you are using flex track.

3rdPlanIt separates what you draw from how you build the layout.

You do draw using turnouts of a known brand and type because those dimensions are important but other than that you are drawing with one of the many types of "lines" that 3rdPlanIt supports.

It supports fixed and variable radius curves, easements of several types including "vertical easements" used to make sure your grades start and end nicely, helices, terrain, structures, framing (if desired) and more.

The program is "smart" in that it knows that curves must come off straights at a tangent so you don't draw any kinks.

You can have multiple drawing layers to use as you wish. For example I have layers for framing, plywood surfaces, foam surfaces, track, terrain, structures, etc.

The program can also insure that you stick to your design constraints. 

For example if you specify that your "mainline track" layer has a minimum radius of 40" it will warn you if you try to draw a curve that is smaller than that.

It can also run a "sanity check" where it looks for various problems like tracks that come to close together when one crosses the other.

One feature that I like is the ability to run trains on the 3D rendered version so you can verify that things are going to look and work like you desire.

You can download a free trial.

I highly recommend it.

And I am here to help.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Thank you. I will get it.


----------



## santafealltheway

fcwilt said:


> Hi Jerry,
> 
> The one I use is called 3rdPlanIt.
> 
> https://www.trackplanning.com
> 
> It is far more powerful than the free ones that seem to be so popular - like SCARM.
> 
> It has a bit of a learning curve but if you go through the tutorials it quickly becomes clear.
> 
> Programs like SCARM have you drawing your plan using pieces of track even when you are using flex track.
> 
> 3rdPlanIt separates what you draw from how you build the layout.
> 
> You do draw using turnouts of a known brand and type because those dimensions are important but other than that you are drawing with one of the many types of "lines" that 3rdPlanIt supports.
> 
> It supports fixed and variable radius curves, easements of several types including "vertical easements" used to make sure your grades start and end nicely, helices, terrain, structures, framing (if desired) and more.
> 
> The program is "smart" in that it knows that curves must come off straights at a tangent so you don't draw any kinks.
> 
> You can have multiple drawing layers to use as you wish. For example I have layers for framing, plywood surfaces, foam surfaces, track, terrain, structures, etc.
> 
> The program can also insure that you stick to your design constraints.
> 
> For example if you specify that your "mainline track" layer has a minimum radius of 40" it will warn you if you try to draw a curve that is smaller than that.
> 
> It can also run a "sanity check" where it looks for various problems like tracks that come to close together when one crosses the other.
> 
> One feature that I like is the ability to run trains on the 3D rendered version so you can verify that things are going to look and work like you desire.
> 
> You can download a free trial.
> 
> I highly recommend it.
> 
> And I am here to help.
> 
> Frederick


Sounds like a train specific photoshop. Very cool.

Whoa! That price though... 125$.


----------



## fcwilt

santafealltheway said:


> Sounds like a train specific photoshop. Very cool.
> 
> Whoa! That price though... 125$.


Look at it this way.

When I decided to start on my layout I made up an initial order for track, turnouts, switch machines, roadbed, etc.

It came to over $6000. And that was just the initial order.

Think about the total investment you have in the hobby.

In that light $125 may not be that much.

The free stuff makes it hard for folks like Randy that created 3rdPlanIt.

It seems folks would rather have a limited, crummy tool for free then a top notch one for $125.

Given what it does $125 is reasonable.

Now for a simple plan on a 4x8 sheet of plywood you are not likely to be able to make use of all of the advance features of 3rdPlanIt but for "basement empires" it certainly is worthwhile.

In any case download the trial and give it a go.

I'll be glad to help.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

If I make it through the tutorial, I don't mind buying it.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> If I make it through the tutorial, I don't mind buying it.


Let me know it you need help.

It takes a unique approach and if you have used the others you may find it a bit confusing at first.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I am always According to my wife, I am beyond help!!!


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I am always According to my wife, I am beyond help!!!


It's tough being a husband.

I was reading some humorous sayings about husbands.

One of my favorites was "My wife asked me what I wanted for dinner but then told me I was wrong.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Well I got through the sectional tutorial. I managed to derail a train. Even figured out how put it back on the track.:laugh:


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Well I got through the sectional tutorial. I managed to derail a train. Even figured out how put it back on the track.:laugh:


Well for your layout I doubt you will be using sectional track.

That is one feature of 3rdPlanIt I have never touched.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

The sectional track is the early part of the tutorial and your right, I will be using flex track.


----------



## JerryH

Here is a preliminary sketch. I can't meet the 40" min radius mainline and make it fit in the 8 x 16 framework. Something around 34" might work though.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Here is a preliminary sketch. I can't meet the 40" min radius mainline and make it fit in the 8 x 16 framework. Something around 34" might work though.
> 
> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=WWhRU3BPLW1GUlNCc0dGaG9yRWJLMWtOekktbEt3


Thanks for the drawing.

While 40" would be grand 30" will handle everything I know of. 

It is the minimum on my layout due to limited space.

Let me see what 3rdPlanIt can do.

Starting with 40" the larger curves would be 42.5" and 45".

A circle of 45" radius is 90" which should fit in 96" (8').

Let me play around with it in 3rdPlanIt.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

The real gotcha is the (2) 45 crossings which makes the innermost loop tight. Going to 16' helps maintain that relationship as the radii increase. Since it is not a mainline, 30" might be OK. 24.5 is tight for the Y6b even though it runs on the 22 current minimum. If I build this, I want it to not look as awkward as the current layout with the long stuff.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Well a quick test in 3rdPlanIt reveals that using 40" as a minimum doesn't leave much in the way of straight track. 

You end up with dual track figure-8 which is not much like the GG&N.

How about a 36" minimum?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

36" max on the outermost radius will probably work. I don't think anything larger will work and maintain the 45 degree crossing.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi,

Don't suppose you have room for more than 16' in width? 

Using 36" min I still don't get much straight track and the crossings are about 40 deg.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

16' long by 8' wide is a hard rule. This will end up as (4) 4'x8'x8" sections for vehicular transport. The crossing angles are fixed as well but some trackage could be curved entering and leaving the crossings to accommodate slight off angle intersection. The original 5x9 atlas design did that. The figure 8 mainline minimum of 33.5" or greater might work. The outermost edge trackage is 2" C/L to edge to provide the maximum space.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi,

Well 36" doesn't work in 8x16. It didn't work in 8x17 either. It would have to be 9x17.

So given 8x16 is fixed I will simply have to see what radius will work.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I kinda figured I could not have my cake and eat it. Since the current layout is 22 and 24 5/8 anything bigger is bound to be better.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I kinda figured I could not have my cake and eat it. Since the current layout is 22 and 24 5/8 anything bigger is bound to be better.


Yes bigger is better.

I had to settle for 30" on mine but it looks pretty good even with 80' passenger cars.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Since I made the 22 & 24.5 work in a 6x11 space, I figured I could fit something around 34-36 in a 8x16 with the extra 2 feet of width. Wrong again.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Here is a first cut using 30", 32.5" and 35".

No grades yet - just wanted you to see the plan.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Looks about right.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Looks about right.


So is 30", as a minimum, going to be acceptable?

If so I will need to add the grades to the plan and make sure the grade meets your goals and achieves the proper clearance.

Sometimes doing that involves moving things around some.

2% is common for a grade - what is your preference?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

30" is acceptable. Going from 22 to 30 should be a substantial improvement over the current layout. That was a preliminary sketch. The double track bridges need to move slightly south and east so as to not touch the 4 corner section joint in the middle. The bottom left #8RH turnout needs to move to the double track straights near or under the double bridges with the points end at the junction of the 2 bottom sections. 2% maximum grade would be great as the current is around 2.5% now.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> 30" is acceptable. Going from 22 to 30 should be a substantial improvement over the current layout. That was a preliminary sketch. The double track bridges need to move slightly south and east so as to not touch the 4 corner section joint in the middle. The bottom left #8RH turnout needs to move to the double track straights near or under the double bridges with the points end at the junction of the 2 bottom sections. 2% maximum grade would be great as the current is around 2.5% now.


OK so...

30" is acceptable

2% is acceptable

I understand about moving the bridges - that should be doable

I don't understand about moving the turnout - what is the goal?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

It probably needs to change to a #8LH as well. I want to have the points end at the junction of the 2 lower 4X8 sections with a single track going to the other bottom #8LH which should actually be a RH. Also the single lower track needs to move to the lower double tracks so that they end up as a triple track under a shorter span bridge. I think all the #8s should be through routes on the mains and diverging to the branch lines. The 2 branch lines provide routing between the figure 8 mains. The N-S junction of the 4 sections will be at 0 elevation with the right hand branch line staying at 0 elevation as well if possible. The other branch line will be at max elevation from the bridge turnout until after the 45s where it will descend.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> It probably needs to change to a #8LH as well. I want to have the points end at the junction of the 2 lower 4X8 sections with a single track going to the other bottom #8LH which should actually be a RH. Also the single lower track needs to move to the lower double tracks so that they end up as a triple track under a shorter span bridge. I think all the #8s should be through routes on the mains and diverging to the branch lines. The 2 branch lines provide routing between the figure 8 mains. The N-S junction of the 4 sections will be at 0 elevation with the right hand branch line staying at 0 elevation as well if possible. The other branch line will be at max elevation from the bridge turnout until after the 45s where it will descend.


I think you best make another sketch so I get it just right.

I'm having trouble following what you have written.

Thanks.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I will do that. THANK YOU!!!!


----------



## JerryH

Overall goals. Light weight, transportable, 4 section bolt together layout. Operational scenarios are A: 3 long trains running flip flopping schedules on both figure 8's, B: 4 medium trains, 2 on each figure 8 with a short 5th train flip flopping between them, C: 6 short trains going all over the place!!. I will again employ way too many blocks for maintaining the spacing. 64 total blocks with all turnouts and crossings as blocks and 32 track blocks will be transponding. Should have some wild spectator appeal with sporadic hidden track via tunnels to hide where which train will appear next.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Overall goals. Light weight, transportable, 4 section bolt together layout. Operational scenarios are A: 3 long trains running flip flopping schedules on both figure 8's, B: 4 medium trains, 2 on each figure 8 with a short 5th train flip flopping between them, C: 6 short trains going all over the place!!. I will again employ way too many blocks for maintaining the spacing. 64 total blocks with all turnouts and crossings as blocks and 32 track blocks will be transponding. Should have some wild spectator appeal with sporadic hidden track via tunnels to hide where which train will appear next.


Many shorter Blocks is a perfectly valid way to keep trains moving.

You mentioned "turnouts and crossing as blocks" - I'm guessing you mean they will have their own occupancy sensors - since they cannot be actual TC Blocks.

Yes? No?

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

I've started moving things around in relationship to the joins of the platform sections.

Down on the right I changed the #8 turnout from a L to an R but as you can see then you end up with a bit of an S-Curve situation.

I understand about wanting the mainline to be the straight through route of the turnout but so you want to have the S-Curve that results?

I think the upper left one would create an even worse S-Curve but I didn't change it yet without talking it over with you.


On my layout I have a couple of places where I allowed the mainline to NOT be the straight through route so I could avoid S-Curves.


Advise please.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

OK, let's avoid the "S" curves. Yes, the turnouts and crossings will be occupancy detected rather than blocks in TCG.


----------



## Mixy

fcwilt said:


> Hi Jerry,
> 
> The one I use is called 3rdPlanIt.
> 
> https://www.trackplanning.com
> 
> It is far more powerful than the free ones that seem to be so popular - like SCARM.
> 
> It has a bit of a learning curve but if you go through the tutorials it quickly becomes clear.
> 
> Programs like SCARM have you drawing your plan using pieces of track even when you are using flex track.
> 
> 3rdPlanIt separates what you draw from how you build the layout.


Here is the Granite Gorge & Northern layout drawn in SCARM:

*Atlas Granite Gorge & Northern HO layout*




























Don't underestimate SCARM, just because it is free - it can do almost anything that commercial layout software offers, and in some cases even more 

Mixy


----------



## fcwilt

Mixy said:


> Here is the Granite Gorge & Northern layout drawn in SCARM:
> 
> *Atlas Granite Gorge & Northern HO layout*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't underestimate SCARM, just because it is free - it can do almost anything that commercial layout software offers, and in some cases even more
> 
> Mixy


Well the last time I checked you were still using "pieces" of flex track when drawing the plan.

If that is still the case I liken it to drawing plans for building a home using "pieces" of 2x4s.

I don't know if you have ever worked with 3rdPlanIt but it takes a completely different approach.

Frederick


----------



## Mixy

fcwilt said:


> Well the last time I checked you were still using "pieces" of flex track when drawing the plan.
> 
> If that is still the case I liken it to drawing plans for building a home using "pieces" of 2x4s.
> 
> I don't know if you have ever worked with 3rdPlanIt but it takes a completely different approach.
> 
> Frederick


Not sure what "pieces of flex track" means, but SCARM can handle flexes pretty well. However, Granite Gorge & Northern plan just does not use flex tracks, so i don't see problem here.

About building homes - many people are still using "pieces" like bricks, tiles, panels, same-size windows and doors and nobody complains.

I don't know 3rdPlanIt and can't comment it. Perhaps it is a good software for the price they want.

Mixy


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> OK, let's avoid the "S" curves. Yes, the turnouts and crossings will be occupancy detected rather than blocks in TCG.


Hi Jerry,

Having a bit of trouble.

To get grades of approximately 2% (with 4" of elevation) I had to place the turnouts at the top and bottom on the grades.

See the markers for the approximate elevation at the turnouts.

Some folks don't like to have turnouts on a grade.

I experimented with keeping them off the grades but this resulted in grades of greater than 2.5 % - which is not ideal.

Thoughts?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

If the grade is at a steady rate before, through, and after the turnout, I don't think it would be a problem at 2%. On the current layout, vertical easement with a turnout is bad news, particularly with an articulated locomotive and 3 axle truck diesels. Reliably avoiding a derailment or decoupling are a high priority. The upper turnout normally would have trains entering from the right and the lower one would have them entering from the left.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> If the grade is at a steady rate before, through, and after the turnout, I don't think it would be a problem at 2%. On the current layout, vertical easement with a turnout is bad news, particularly with an articulated locomotive and 3 axle truck diesels. Reliably avoiding a derailment or decoupling are a high priority. The upper turnout normally would have trains entering from the right and the lower one would have them entering from the left.


I have turnouts (single crossovers) on a grade and they work fine BUT as you pointed out it is important to have no change in grade.

I just wanted to make sure you were OK with that and confident that you can build it to your satisfaction.

So what would you like me to do now?

Do you want to take over the design and use 3rdPlanIt on your own?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I am still struggling through the tutorial, but will buy the license. You must be bored to do all this work for me :appl: As always, you are extremely helpful. :worshippy:
So far, I bought 150' of flex, roadbed, and the 45's on sale already. I am waiting for the next Peco sale to buy the turnouts but have to be sure of the design before I know which ones to buy. My plan is to start construction by early April.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I am still struggling through the tutorial, but will buy the license. You must be bored to do all this work for me :appl: As always, you are extremely helpful. :worshippy:
> So far, I bought 150' of flex, roadbed, and the 45's on sale already. I am waiting for the next Peco sale to buy the turnouts but have to be sure of the design before I know which ones to buy. My plan is to start construction by early April.


Not bored. I just try to help where I can.

I've used 3rdPlanIt for a long time so what comes natural to me may be a difficult for you.

When I was learning it was like "what the heck" because I skipped the tutorial. Once I did the tutorial things started to make sense.

Some of the tools have quirks that require things to be done a certain way otherwise you get strange results.

Even now I sometimes I find myself doing the wrong thing. 

Nothing bad happens just the result is track going in a odd direction. So you just hit undo and try again.

And sometimes I forget which tool is appropriate for a given situation and I try the wrong one.

Again nothing bad happens just a wrong result.

So don't if you get stuck on something PLEASE ask.

I'm glad to help.

Besides we TrainController folks need to stick together.

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I am still struggling through the tutorial, but will buy the license. You must be bored to do all this work for me :appl: As always, you are extremely helpful. :worshippy:
> So far, I bought 150' of flex, roadbed, and the 45's on sale already. I am waiting for the next Peco sale to buy the turnouts but have to be sure of the design before I know which ones to buy. My plan is to start construction by early April.


I forgot to ask where do you get your Peco items?

I used http://billstrains.com/

He was always good with pricing and a nice guy to chat with.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/ sometimes has discount sales on different brands. When I ordered the flex and roadbed, it was 10% off their regular discounted prices.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

I worked on the grades some more.

Here you can see the result.

I have called out the grades on many locations.

As you can see in some places it went over 2% by a bit.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

No problems with that. On the outside branchline in the NE section at the top, it shows .518%. Why would that not be at 0%?


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

If you recall I stated that to get the grade down to 2% I had to put the turnouts on the grade.

The section of track is connecting those two turnouts which are at slightly different non-zero elevations.

I marked the elevations.

The rear turnout is at (appx) 0-5/16 and the front turnout is at (appx) 1-5/32.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I got it now. That will work.


----------



## JerryH

It took me 2 tries to get through the flex track tutorial. The next one happens to be a figure 8 tutorial. Isn't that appropriate at this time?


----------



## JerryH

I am not happy with 3rd plan it. What do you think about anyrail?


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I am not happy with 3rd plan it. What do you think about anyrail?


I've used them all.

For me the only one worth bothering with is 3rdPlanIt.

It is different and has a learning curve.

What don't you like at this point?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Too many warnings about connecting to groups during the tutorials. Overall even with fairly good step by step instructions there are too many things going wrong. I will try the anyrail demo as it seems a lot more intuitive.


----------



## JerryH

I tried anyrail today. It is easy to learn but leaves a lot to be desired compared to 3rdPlanIt.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I tried anyrail today. It is easy to learn but leaves a lot to be desired compared to 3rdPlanIt.


I will have to go through the tutorial.

It could be that changes to 3rdPlanIt have not yet made into the tutorial.

I use 3rdPlanIt and general the only problems I have is with "operator error".

None of the other programs I've tried have all the power and features of 3rdPlanIt.

For simple 4x8 layouts and the like the others programs like SCARM are fine but when you to design, say, a multiple level layout with helix, curves with easements, grades with easements, etc you need something like 3rdPlanIt.

The connecting tools can generate error message when you use them incorrectly or in the wrong situation.

There are many connecting tools, each for a different purpose and situation.

Learning them is perhaps a bit of a haul but they do so much and save so much time.

Feel free to ask for help.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

No doubt, I have a lot of operator error. I already figured there was a lot better stuff with 3rdPlanIt


----------



## JerryH

Frederick, does the software tell you the length of the vertical easements? I would think the curve easements would be quite a bit longer than the 2% grade easements.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Frederick, does the software tell you the length of the vertical easements? I would think the curve easements would be quite a bit longer than the 2% grade easements.


Yes but given the size constraints (8 x 16) the easements will have to be minimal to stay near that 2% goal.

The longer the easement the steeper the grade - unavoidable.

To obtain that 2% (appx) there is not much track on the level.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Yes, the current layout has very little track at the 0% lower level. Really only the tracks under the bridges. The design is mostly going up or down and curving most of the way.


----------



## JerryH

Frederick, can this be duplicated with todays parts? Can it be run with TCG? The reason I ask is that I picked up the older 130' model today at a train show.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=93745&highlight=turntable


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Frederick, can this be duplicated with todays parts? Can it be run with TCG? The reason I ask is that I picked up the older 130' model today at a train show.
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=93745&highlight=turntable


Was the unit the pre-DCC version or the DCC version.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

This one. I'm pretty sure it is pre DCC.
https://www.walthers.com/cornerston...ble-assembled-motorized-programmable-indexing


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Well with a bit of work involving opening up the TT control box, adding some wiring and building/programming a "controller" out of a Arduino Uno board you could get it to work with TC.

I will need to experiment with TC some to see how exactly it could be done.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I thought you already had your turntable running from TCG. No big deal as I am a loooooooong way off from running a turntable on the rebuild layout. I just couldn't pass up a NOS $300 turntable for $100. Still factory sealed. It is definitely not DCC. It just has a little control box.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I thought you already had your turntable running from TCG. No big deal as I am a loooooooong way off from running a turntable on the rebuild layout. I just couldn't pass up a NOS $300 turntable for $100. Still factory sealed. It is definitely not DCC. It just has a little control box.


I do but it was based around the DCC version.

The older version would require a different approach and thus all new work.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I found some stuff on the internet and I will see if I can convert it to DCC operation.


----------



## JerryH

In your conversion, are you still using the walther optical rpm counter from the drive motor?


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> In your conversion, are you still using the walther optical rpm counter from the drive motor?


Yes - from the small circuit board mounted in the bridge I removed all of the parts EXCEPT for those needed to make the sensor work.

On my turntable (I assume most other Walthers are similar) the sensor produces something slight in excess of 64 thousand counts.

For tracks on 10 degree spacing (which match the Walthers roundhouse units) this works out to be 1785 counts to move from one track to another.

It was easy enough to connect the sensor into an Arduino Mini board (about the size of a stamp) and write the code needed to move the turntable bridge to a given track based on the count.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I talked to Walthers tech and he said most of the "brains" were in the control box on this unit. The later model had them split between the control box and the bridge. I think the circuit board in the bridge has 2- 8 leg ICs and one 20 leg IC. By the way, I powered it up and it seems to work fine per programming instructions. According to dating info, it is about 10 years old. They did sell a DCC conversion unit for it but it is no longer available.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I talked to Walthers tech and he said most of the "brains" were in the control box on this unit. The later model had them split between the control box and the bridge. I think the circuit board in the bridge has 2- 8 leg ICs and one 20 leg IC. By the way, I powered it up and it seems to work fine per programming instructions. According to dating info, it is about 10 years old. They did sell a DCC conversion unit for it but it is no longer available.


My unit was a newer DCC unit and it was simply best to do a "gut job" and start afresh.

Your unit might be fine if we created our own Ardunio based device to accept DCC commands and "push" the buttons on the existing controller.

It would all depend on the behavior of the LED on the controller that says the turntable is positioned at the correct track.

The Arduino unit would need to monitor that LED so it knew when the movement was done because TC needs to know when the bridge is in place.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

The position led comes on and remains on when the bridge has stopped at the proper track. When you momentary push one of the CW/CCW buttons, the led goes out until it advances to the next in sequence remembered track. You cannot enter a particular track to go to.
I was just day dreaming. I am not going to do anything with the turntable until after phase 2 of the new construction (yard area). Running it with TCG is a far off fantasy right now. I need to get the redesign done before I start building framework.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> The position led comes on and remains on when the bridge has stopped at the proper track. When you momentary push one of the CW/CCW buttons, the led goes out until it advances to the next in sequence remembered track. You cannot enter a particular track to go to.
> I was just day dreaming. I am not going to do anything with the turntable until after phase 2 of the new construction (yard area). Running it with TCG is a far off fantasy right now. I need to get the redesign done before I start building framework.


Thanks for the info.

Can you push and hold the button until it is just before the desired, programmed location and have it stop correctly?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Yes it will work that way as well.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Yes it will work that way as well.


Then it should be possible to create a Arduino based system which would "emulate" human behavior.

It would require knowing how long it took to go from track to track so the program would know how long to "hold" the button down so it could go from any track to any track in one operation.

It would be an interesting project.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Cool. Then there is hope for this old model. Maybe in a year or so, we could try it.


----------



## JerryH

Another question for future operations. In TCG, can you assign a priority to the trains that would dictate how TCG decides which train has the right of way through crossings and turnouts where the schedules are different routes? If not, how about prioritizing schedules? Not important if you don't already know.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Cool. Then there is hope for this old model. Maybe in a year or so, we could try it.


If I live that long - sure.

At 66 I don't plan more than about a month ahead. 

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I am 63 and my dad is 89. He tells me it gets a lot worse. I only plan 1 day! If I wake up, I figure I already accomplished my goal for the day.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I am 63 and my dad is 89. He tells me it gets a lot worse. I only plan 1 day! If I wake up, I figure I already accomplished my goal for the day.


:laugh:


----------



## JerryH

You told me today you had a video showing the passenger car end swing on a non easement transition into a 30" curve. I got the one on the turntable. Some people might like to see the non easement video here.


----------



## JerryH

Shelf brackets.


----------



## JerryH

*redesign*

Well I lost all my 3rd PlanIt files due to my stupidity!:smilie_daumenneg: Seems I had them in the downloads folder which I clean out from time to time. I had to start all over and I am sure I have a bunch of errors in it.


----------



## fcwilt

HI Jerry,

This is all I have and I imagine it is pretty out of date.

Sorry.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Thank you. I needed to do this from scratch since it is better to learn how to use the software.


----------



## JerryH

I think I am making progress. I will use tunnels instead of bridges. This solves some potential problems with a sectional design.


----------



## JerryH

Pretty close to the final track plan.


----------



## Dreadnought

That's going to be a pretty wicked crossover in the yard, especially considering some of the crossing tracks go right through turnouts(!) I've skimmed through the thread to try and get a feel for where you are, but I'm not sure if having to (scratch)build all of those crossings is going to be fun. However, maybe you enjoy doing that sort of thing, so I'll leave it up to you. It certainly does look very cool. However, another problem is that when trains are operating on that main track they will interfere with operations in the yard, so it wouldn't really be practicable to operate both the yard and the main track at the same time.

Dreadnought


----------



## JerryH

Those crossing tracks are underground of the yard. I put the 3d view here but it is hard to tell what the relationship is.


----------



## Dreadnought

Okay, I see. It is indeed a bit hard to tell from the 3D view. That solves all of those problems I mentioned then :thumbsup:


----------



## Nikola

I like it. Will the under tracks be a true tunnel or in an open cut? I love open cuts BTW, just so I am clear about my personal bias! LOL


----------



## JerryH

There will be an open cut for the tracks to descend to the tunnel on the right side. In the middle will be the tunnel exits to the lower level on the left were the tracks will rise up to the upper level.


----------



## JerryH

Track plan close to done.


----------



## JerryH

Terrain hiding tunnel tracks.


----------



## Magic

That's looking very nice, I like it.

Magic


----------



## JerryH

*resistance soldering*

Since I am purchasing most of the materials for the rebuild of my GG&N, I thought I would try resistance soldering. WOW, what a great thing!:sold: Talk about easy, good looking, and very solid connections, this is the way to go. It is very close to goof proof. This is Micromark's lowest cost unit and it worked great. If you click on the track close up, magnify it to get a look at the actual solder joints. Amazing compared to a soldering iron. No evidence of melting the nearby plastic ties either.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

I've been recommending RS for a long time but it seems that most folks consider it too expensive.

I purchased an unit from American Beauty - being made in the USA they are, as you might expect, more expensive - it's can sometimes be tough to "buy American".

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

This unit wasn't very expensive (made in china) considering the quality of soldering it did. My first attempt with this is way better than my very best of tons of conventional iron joints. Speed and not screwing up expensive parts in my book is a great economy despite the initial outlay.


----------



## JerryH

I now have all the track, turntable, and turnouts for the re-design. Here it is cleaned up a little more. I will get some wood soon.


----------



## fcwilt

It looks pretty good. I take it you got the grades all worked out and they are doable?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I think so. I'll send you the file.


----------



## JerryH

A little more touch up.


----------



## Nikola

Wow!!


----------



## JerryH

*Out with the old*

:SELLIT:
The old layout is now out of the way to make room to start the layout of the new version. It will be a 4 section bolt together cookie cutter design same as was the old one. It will be easier to handle and lighter with the 4x8 sections. I will make it entirely out of plywood for stability in my garage which is not climate controlled. Hopefully it will handle the long rolling stock better from lessons learned in my first layout.


----------



## 89Suburban

Looks good.


----------



## JerryH

*new wood*

All plywood benchwork.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Are those plywood strips in that stack?

Did you make or buy them?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

They are indeed plywood boards. I went to Lowe's and bought a couple of thick plywood sheets and had them cut them up into 8 equal segment boards a little less than 6" width for the framing members.


----------



## JerryH

*section 1*

I hate working on the floor so the first thing was to build section 1 which will serve as a temporary workbench. This really surprised me because it came out so rigid. I guess it was because of the 1x6 members instead of the 1x4s used in the old layout.


----------



## JerryH

*Trammel*

I made this to help me draw the proper radius centerlines on the plywood. The mechanical pencil insert holes are on 1/2" spacings and the center point holes are at 1/4" spacings. The selections are from 27 3/4" to 36 1/4". 32 1/2" will be my most used radius. 30" will be my minimum and 35" will be the maximum on this layout.


----------



## JerryH

*Transfer*

Moving the design to the plywood.


----------



## quigly7777

Wow, a whole thread on my layout. I have been working on it off and on, and is a modified track plan with a reversing loop and double crossover. Powered with a Digitrax Zephyr Extra and uses JMRI on a laptop for turnout control. Obviously I am not a scenery guy, but have it operating well, may have to add jumpers to a couple turnouts. I have just oodles of rolling stock both built and unbuild collected over the years, mostly Athearn kits.

Pics following are the original drawn out layout on the plywood followed by what it looks like today.


----------



## quigly7777

OK, I do not hardly ever post pics on websites and this one wants them from a URL. What do you use?


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Moving the design to the plywood.


You know that you can use 3rd PlanIt to print out full size templates which make putting down roadbed and track a breeze?

Frederick


----------



## quigly7777




----------



## quigly7777




----------



## quigly7777




----------



## quigly7777




----------



## quigly7777

OK, figured it out, had an old photobucket account.


----------



## Lemonhawk

?? The nice thing about this Forum is that it stores the pictures, thus you upload pictures from your computer to this Forum and the pictures stay with the messages! No URL needed!


----------



## quigly7777

Lemonhawk said:


> ?? The nice thing about this Forum is that it stores the pictures, thus you upload pictures from your computer to this Forum and the pictures stay with the messages! No URL needed!


Thanks, found it!


----------



## JerryH

fcwilt said:


> You know that you can use 3rd PlanIt to print out full size templates which make putting down roadbed and track a breeze?
> 
> Frederick


Yep, I knew that but it would be a lot of paper. I figured I could draw it out more accurately without aligning all those little pieces of paper.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Yep, I knew that but it would be a lot of paper. I figured I could draw it out more accurately without aligning all those little pieces of paper.


I printed to a PDF file (1 to 1) and took it to a nearby place the had large format printers (36" x 48") so it didn't take that many pieces of paper.

It took a bit of time to tape them together in a workable way.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

*top height*

A couple of issues on the old layout were viewing height, comfortable edge reach, and operations seat elevation. I can always make taller legs later if this doesn't work out. I shortened the top height to 34". I can comfortably put a car on the track at 36" from the table edge and can reach as far as 40" to pick something up. Doing scenery work at 30" is fine. :thumbsup: Young children had to be lifted up to see the action on the old layout.  This lowered height provides more of an overall aerial view rather than the more traditional view. I did not like sitting on a bar stool to run the layout as well. This new configuration is more like sitting at a desk. The downside is the crawl space underneath is low at 28".:thumbsdown: I won't spend much time under the layout.


----------



## quigly7777

Jerry, Looking good. My height is 39". I do have to pull the layout back from the wall to clean track in the back. I really like your design with the turntable and yard. I use Digitrax and a laptop with JMRI for turnout control.

This is also my second GG&N over many years and most likely the last.

BTW, I am in Taylor, NE of Austin, neighbors by Texas standards.


----------



## JerryH

Practically next door!!


----------



## JerryH

*feet*

The old layout used adjustable casters because it was in one unit to move around. Since this one is in sections, simple bolt and T-nut adjusters were put on the leg bottoms for leveling purposes.


----------



## MtRR75

*Feet*

Depending on the weight of your layout, you might find that the 1" thick pads might bend a little. If you locate the adjustment screw closer to the elbow of the two legs, it will reduce this problem.

Or... You could use 2" thick feet and a longer adjustment screw

Or... You could do what I did and mount a 2"x2" leg to the inside corner of your legs, protruding about an inch below the legs. Then, I installed a screw-in foot on the bottom of the 2x2. My layout is heavy (3/4" plywood with 3/4" Homosote on top), and once I got mine level (about 5 years ago), I have never needed to adjust it again.


----------



## JerryH

*weight*

The weight of the old layout became more of a problem over the years. It was built far heavier than needed when it came to moving it!  This version being sectional and the way it is being built is much lighter by moving each section by itself. I think even though it is 50% larger in area, it may be still lighter overall. The frame members are 23/32 by 5 7/8 plywood and the top is 11/32 plywood. This combination has turned out to be very stiff but still relatively light which I can break down and assemble without a helper. I could not do that with the old layout.  With regard to the foot design, time will tell if it needs to be redone. There are 9 legs on the new one whereas the old was 6. The old design used 2x4 feet and they were not properly implemented.


----------



## JerryH

*16X8*

A preliminary framework assembly. This had to be done twice as the 4X8 sheets wouldn't quite square up. I don't think they were cut perfectly square to begin with. 128 sq ft vs 82 on the old layout. There will be about 3.75 scale miles of track on this version.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Glad to see the progress.

Hope all continues to go well.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

*SweepSticks*

Received my sweepsticks today which are used for track alignment. They are all 40" long sets and consist of 30, 32.5, & 35 inch radii.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

I'm a big fan of their stuff. 

I started on my staging yard a little while back which has two corners with curves of 30.0, 32.5, 35.0, 37.5, 40.0 and 42.5.

I decided to make my own track and ordered the assembly jigs for those sizes, plus the copper ties and 18" rail from them.

Made some track already and it is going well. 

Nothing like curved sections of track that don't want to spring back to straight.

I also got the matching SweepSticks so I could insure I was installing the track correctly and wasn't distorting it in any way.

Looking forward to watching your layout come together.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I will see if I like the sweep sticks when I glue the track down. I like them so far just fitting a piece of atlas flex to one. I am off to my dad's place to cut the grades in the framework. He has the tools and knowledge how to cut them the way I want. This is how you fit a 16x8 layout in a 8x4 space in a suburban!


----------



## JerryH

*making the grade*

Here is the lower right section with the grades formed by cuts in the framework. This is the cookie cutter method. Tunnel floors are 3.75" below the bottom of the upper plywood sheet. The other end is about mid grade. No grade will exceed 2%.


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## quigly7777

Nice!


----------



## Magic

Coming right along Jerry and looking good.

Magic


----------



## JerryH

I forgot the picture of the framework with the internal risers. This frame has the perimeter edge grade fixed on the main frame pieces which is a little unusual.


----------



## JerryH

I started working on the tunnel floors in the lower right section. There are somethings when redesigning a plan that can reach up and smack you in the face. Talk about multitasking with how things relate to each other in 3 dimensions.:dunno: One thing to plan it and another to build it the way you want it to come out.


----------



## JerryH

*basic contours*

The general contours are done.


----------



## quigly7777

Nice benchwork!


----------



## time warp

I like the way your going with that, looks very sturdy. I've always been a fan of cookie cutter benchwork. I'm currently building with foam on my Moose Jaws project, but never again.


----------



## JerryH

It is very sturdy by using all plywood in the framework. The thing I like about the cookie cutter method is, if the plywood deck is thin enough, it makes for natural vertical easements.


----------



## time warp

Excellent construction choice.


----------



## 89Suburban

Nice work!


----------



## JerryH

*alignment*

This is how the sections are aligned with each other. The aluminum pin is a slight interference fit in the frame holes. 1-1/8 diameter pins are used between each section so that when reassembled, they are precisely aligned both vertically and horizontally. The leg bolts pull the sections together. The frame holes are drilled with a forstner bit which makes a decent hole in wood with clamps holding to prevent movement while drilling.


----------



## Nikola

Wow: ovekill much! Nice though;.


----------



## JerryH

I believe it is critical to get precise repeatable alignment of the tracks between sections for smooth running.


----------



## JerryH

*foundation done*

The foundation is done. I need to do some surface sanding and then I can start on laying the cork roadbed.


----------



## ExONRcarman

incredibly impressive. i wish i had the skills to do something like that


----------



## JerryH

Not so much skill, but patience and experience goes a long way to getting it the way you want it done.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

Looks great! Looking forward to watching this develop! I'm a fan of the cookie cutter method too.

Mark


----------



## JerryH

*Tunnels*

I started putting down some cork roadbed in the tunnels today. I need more push pins as I can only do 9 feet at a time with what I have. I will get some more tomorrow to speed things up. The roadbed and track are easiest to lay without the top on so I am doing the tunnels first.

I tried the sweep sticks today and they are better than eyeballing but are way too flexible for really foolproof accuracy. I used them to move the track centerline a little bit.


----------



## JerryH

*template*

I made a drill guide for the tortoise mounting. I didn't want to guess at it later. I wanted it precisely placed. I use it on top prior to putting the roadbed in place. The turnout is temporarily set and a pencil point is used to operate thru the throw bar. This creates a cross line with the track centerline. The guide is screwed down with the 1/4 hole looking at the crosshair and #8 screw holes centered on the trackline. I did 2 so far and they are perfect. On the old layout, I did a lot of adjustment to get it to work right. Not this time!!:smilie_daumenneg:


----------



## jackpresley

Dear Jerry,

I just finished reading this thread and consequently have a lot of questions. Hope you don't mind me asking them here.

1. Are you going to sell your original layout? 
2. Where do you purchase your equipment? I'm especially interested in local sources since I'm just up the road in Kerrville.
3. Since you are "doing it over" -- what major changes other than size are you making?
4. Are you still happy with TC? I notice there are Olympic medal variations, with Bronze being entry level. Were you running the original with a more powerful version? Can you have TC run a train and have it make scheduled stops at stations?

I have a lot more questions but I'll stop here and thank you for your excellent documentation of your journey. It has changed my entire approach as I re-enter this hobby after a 40 year hiatus. I'm very grateful for you taking the considerable time it takes to document your work.

Kindest regards and Happy New Year!
-Jack


----------



## JerryH

1. yes
2. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/
https://www.trainworld.com/
Local in SATX, Hobbytown or Dibbles
3. 30" minimum radius & < 2% grades for long rolling 
stock and trains.
4. Yes. Gold version from the start. Yes.

Happy New Year to all.


----------



## JerryH

I started laying the tunnel tracks. I like the sweep sticks for track alignment.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## JerryH

*side mount*

The sections are designed to stack on top of each other for transport. This turnout is just out of the tunnel entrance where the track is at its lowest level. If the Tortoise was mounted conventionally, it would hang down below the bottom edge of the framework. I made an aluminum U channel mount to reposition the Tortoise to the side instead of straight down. Tested it out with a 9v battery and it worked very well. It will be hidden when the scenery is done. Another turnout at the other end of the tunnel will be done the same way.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## Magic

With the Tortoise laid on it's side I would suggest something like this to keep dirt etc. out of the works.
I had to take many of mine apart because ballast grains got into the gears.








Here's what happens.
If your going to move the layout anything in there will end up in the gears.
It's about 150 to 1 so anything will stop them dead.








Magic


----------



## JerryH

Good idea. I will make 2 covers.


----------



## Nikola

Somehow I get the feeling that OP would love to CNC mill the entire layout out of a huge aluminum billet.


----------



## JerryH

*test*

I put in some temporary wiring to test the tunnel tracks and hooked up the Zephyr. I used my most finicky locos and rolling stock. The one track has a point facing turnout and my loco doesn't like any irregularities with a point facing turnout. I ran the short train at full speed both forward and reverse and had no issues with the tunnel trackage. I can put the tops on and continue with the build as all the tunnel tracks seem OK.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

I would suggest that you make a couple of large holes through your bottom plywood trackbed so that you can reach the inner loop of track from below the layout. Stuff goes wrong occasionally and if you get a car or locomotive stuck on the inner loop, you want to be able to retrieve it without major effort.

Mark


----------



## jackpresley

How wide is your Garage door, Jerry? In a pinch (ie, hail storm) could you push this to one side and get a car in there? (Without taking it apart?)

I need to tape this out on the floor and see. It never hails when I'm home, so I need to make sure my wife can move this aside and get a car inside. (Or add a porte-cochère, and take over the garage!)


----------



## JerryH

It's a single garage door that is 2 cars wide. The old layout is 6' wide on rollers without the 2' wide yard attached which would make it 8' wide. I have put the wife's car in many times without moving the main layout when the yard is not attached. The yard is easy to detach or attach.

The new layout will be 4' wide x 16' long with 2 of the sections removed for plenty of room for a car next to it. At the full 8' wide setup, the car will not fit because of 3' on each side used for machine space and general storage.


----------



## JerryH

Now I am making some progress. Put down some more cork today. I think in the future I will try something else than this old standard cork roadbed. The center pre-cut position is not what it should be.


----------



## Fire21

JerryH said:


> I think in the future I will try something else than this old standard cork roadbed. The center pre-cut position is not what it should be.


 I've used cork and foam roadbed, and neither is consistent in their cutting of the center...it wobbles from side to side. I figure ballast will cover the variances.


----------



## JerryH

Yes, that's the issue. The split halves are offset instead of even. I have to draw the ballast edge lines for a guide instead of using the track centerline.


----------



## JerryH

The connection between the 4 sections is far enough along now that each can be worked individually. The other 3 sections are stowed in the background. First up is section "A" which will house the command station and distribution electronics. I will pull the electronics off the old layout and wire it tonight so that I can test each section as it is added on.


----------



## jackpresley

I can see from this last picture what my problem is: I can't see my garage floor! Ha. I see an early spring cleaning in my near future.


----------



## JerryH

I have the same problem. I keep moving stuff around to make room. Once section "A & D" are functional, then I will move a lot of stuff under the layout and I will have room for the wife's car if needed.:laugh:


----------



## 89Suburban

Nice work. Check out these bad boys I just got a box and I love them. You might too.

https://www.amazon.com/GEMOFFICEPRODUCTS-CPAL5-Aluminum-Head-Silver/dp/B00PZ9BTRO


----------



## JerryH

It took longer than I figured to completely wire section 1. It holds the power supplies, DCS, and distribution wiring for the other sections. The track is wired in a direct home method rather than common rail and is more of a branch pattern rather than a bus following the track. I used 14 GA wire from the DCS to the PM 42 and the distribution harnesses from the PM42 and 18 GA from the BDL to the terminal blocks with 22 GA feeders no longer than 3". The empty upper right corner will hold the PC MB and PS. There are 3 wall warts for the PM42, PR3, and a UR92. A 4 amp PS for the BDLs, SE8Cs, & the PTB100. A 20 amp PS powers the DCS200. The big PSs and DCS are strapped to the boards on the bottom. Amazingly it fired up without any strange smoke or noises.:smilie_daumenpos: I will test it out with a loco for block detection, transponding, short protection, program track function, turnout and crossing detection.


----------



## JerryH

I did the check out today. I had a major disaster. I have not fastened the programming track down and when I set the table up, it was laying upside down across another track. When I fired everything up, I had a short. That short blew the PTB100 board.:goofball: All other functions tested good.


----------



## Magic

Not good Jerry. 
But you are moving forward and doing a fine job.
Interesting bench work plan there but It seems to be working.
Nice track work as well.
Good luck with it.

Magic


----------



## bernardofca

*Where do the blocks stop?*

Interesting thread too bad you have to start all over. I have a similar (but far less ambitious!) project in N-scale. I also want full automation so I am wondering how do you deal with switches as far as the Blocks are concerned. Which option is the correct one:

1) The switch is on one of the 3 blocks that connect to it.
2) The switch is on a 4th block detected independently of the 3 incoming blocks.
3) The switch is not part of any block detection.

My guess is that #3 is the right way. #2 would work but would add an unneeded block.


----------



## JerryH

I never figured it would be my final layout. When I desired the same layout but being better suited to long rolling stock, the die was cast.
My first layout had the turnout as part of the point side block. It seemed to work just fine. There has been some heated discussion on the TrainController site on this very subject. Any of your 3 choices can be made to work. I chose to do this layout with detection of the turnouts and crossings as separate detection entities but they cannot be "blocks" in TC.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

bernardofca said:


> Which option is the correct one:
> 
> 1) The switch is on one of the 3 blocks that connect to it.
> 2) The switch is on a 4th block detected independently of the 3 incoming blocks.
> 3) The switch is not part of any block detection.


You should go read the threads on the Train Controller forum on this topic. The recommendation is to not have the turnout as part of any block. This means you need to have insulators on all three junctions of the turnout and of course you need to supply power to the turnout making the wiring more complex. In Train Controller, you can make use of detection on the turnout for locking the turnout so it doesn't change while occupied, but that really only works if all your cars have resistors across their wheels so that they are detectable. Of course having detectors on your turnouts also increases the amount of hardware you need to purchase. If you don't have a detector on your turnout, there are known issues with voltage of the feed power. The detectors cause a voltage drop and if you don't have the same voltage drop on your turnouts, you can have inconsistent detection when a locomotive crosses from the turnout into one of the surrounding blocks. There are ways to fix this by adding some diodes to the power feed to the turnout, but again, this adds complexity.

I wasn't aware of the above recommendations when I originally laid and wired my track. On my layout, I put the turnout in the same block as on the point side of the turnout like Jerry did in his first layout. My thinking was that the turnout was still logically part of that block because the train wouldn't have passed out of that block until it clears the turnout. This has worked out well for me and I haven't had any significant problems with this logic. The one thing that would be wrong would be to put the turnout into either of the 2 blocks leading away from the turnout opposite the points side. The reason this is a problem is that if you have the turnout as part of block B and the turnout is set to route from Block A to Block C, you'll get a temporary occupation signal for Block B which will cause major problems with logic.

Mark


----------



## bernardofca

Very interesting answers! I am going to check the Train Controller forum. Adding a detector per switch (even though they don't belong to a block) is not insignificant but this is likely what I will do.


----------



## fcwilt

bernardofca said:


> Very interesting answers! I am going to check the Train Controller forum. Adding a detector per switch (even though they don't belong to a block) is not insignificant but this is likely what I will do.


You don't always have to have one detector per turnout.

If you have multiple turnouts that are adjacent, like in a yard ladder, you can use one detector for them all, if that is acceptable to you.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I got a second section tracked, wired, and function tested. I didn't even fry anything this time.:appl:


----------



## JerryH

While I am putting the road bed down on another section, I got to thinking about the scenery. I am not fond of the plaster and cloth method. Too messy, slow to cure, and heavy. I think I will try aluminum screen and "Bondo". This should be lighter and stronger than plaster. Has anyone out there tried it?


----------



## bernardofca

JerryH said:


> While I am putting the road bed down on another section, I got to thinking about the scenery. I am not fond of the plaster and cloth method. Too messy, slow to cure, and heavy. I think I will try aluminum screen and "Bondo". This should be lighter and stronger than plaster. Has anyone out there tried it?


I have not used that method but I have used fiberglass screen with foam using latex rubber molds. I had bought the product at a train show a long time ago. The foam was a 2-part product (not a can) and was supposed to be harder than construction foam. The kit also included a "shell" that was painted inside the rubber mold. This was definitely lightweight and easy to adjust.


----------



## quigly7777

Jerry, saw your Bondo idea and found this thread.

http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?38645-use-of-Bondo-auto-body-filler


----------



## jackpresley

Jerry,

Happy with your decision to move to the garage? Mine did not get that cold today, even without any heat -- got down to 58*. I was working on an expanded layout plan and my wife thinks I'm crazy for giving up an air conditioned and heated room. I think she's also concerned that Boyle's law applies to "train boards" -- and that she'll completely lose the garage. She might be right.  But I'm struggling with fitting what I want into a 12x12 area. Being able to walk around the perimeter is pushing me to give it up and go big in the garage. Just wish I remember how hot it got out there in the summer.


----------



## JerryH

I knew from the get go that I was garage bound. Not enough room in the house. A layout can never be too big! I wish I had a bigger garage. You just have to plan to be able fit a car in there once in awhile. Too cold for me to work on the layout for a couple of days. I can handle heat but not cold. I use a portable A/C unit in the summertime which can keep it tolerable.


----------



## JerryH

I might try microballoons instead of bondo.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi,

I'm using rigid foam insulation for the basic shapes and one of those paper mache products for the surface finish.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

The part I am thinking is the surface fill on the screen.


----------



## JerryH

I finished with the track, wiring, and testing of another section. I initially had 1 short in a turnout in this section. I am getting sloppy.  I forgot to clip the jumpers on an electrofrog turnout which made for a dead short. The PM42 correctly identified the offending section. So far the transponding is working extremely well in JMRI. One more section to go and I should be able to run trains round and round again. 75% of the layout has been tested at max speed forward and reverse and no problems have shown up yet, but I haven't tested with a train of any length yet. :smilie_daumenpos: That will happen when all 4 sections are operational.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

How did the grades and clearances end up? Did you meet your design goals?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I think I did. I used an electronic grade meter that reads to hundreths of a percent and it was quite revealing. It definitely shows the warps in the plywood even when you don't notice them. In some short spans I had some 1.5% excess grade that I had to use some stiff straight pieces under the plywood to bring them true.


----------



## JerryH

The last section is somewhat complete. I made a design change in the plan on the outermost curve but didn't change it on the earlier draft on the plywood. Oops! I already glued the roadbed to the wrong radius. :smilie_daumenneg: Since both figure 8's are done, I put the Y6B articulated on and tested for clearance on the next inner track at that point since it has the most overhang. It is close, but will clear.  I will run some trains with long rolling stock to see if i need to redo this before I finish the track on this corner.


----------



## JerryH

Tested some trains tonight. Poor light in this video. :lame: I need to get better lighting or open the garage in daylight.


----------



## Magic

Congrats on getting some trains running, always a milestone.

Magic


----------



## JerryH

Even though the trains could run through OK, I couldn't tolerate my mistake. I pulled up the roadbed and reset it to the correct radius. Trains don't care but it looks better to me.:smilie_daumenpos:Now I can finish the mainline track.


----------



## JerryH

The "Golden Spike" has been driven!:appl: All of the mainline track has been laid, wired, and tested.  I have a couple of vertical warps in the plywood that I will need to address but next up is the yard and turntable.


----------



## JerryH

Another little test run. Just had to run some trains and take a break from building.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

Congrats on the "golden spike". Its always a huge accomplishment to get the mainline fully running.

Mark


----------



## 89Suburban

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## JerryH

I am short 1 RH turnout due to a late design change. I ordered it yesterday and should have it in a week. Meanwhile, the yard build is underway.


----------



## JerryH

The yard is tracked, wired, and tested.  I have to say, I got incredibly fast service from Trainworld and the USPS. I ordered on Monday and got it Wednesday from NYC to San Antonio.:smilie_daumenpos: Next is the last of the track associated with the turntable.


----------



## bernardofca

Very nice. What is the use for the extra switch connecting the two far right yard tracks?


----------



## JerryH

It just provides a little extra room before the yard limit for a switcher to work the far right track. I would have prefered to place it deeper in but other constraints dictated to put it there.


----------



## JerryH

The turntable and associated tracks were installed today. A first for me. I did not not do any wiring and therefore no testing. The reason is, I have not made up my mind on how I want to wire it. Originally, I was going to use a normal bus for all of this area. Now, I think I may use a Digitrax BXP88, which to me and my methods for operating, seems like an ideal use for such a device.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

Looks great!

Mark


----------



## JerryH

Thanks, I get lucky once in awhile.


----------



## Magic

Jerry, your railroad is really shaping up.
Going to be super. Good looking track plan and 
should be fun to operate.

Magic


----------



## 89Suburban

Looking great Jerry.


----------



## JerryH

Since I never had a turntable before, I couldn't resist wiring it up and playing with it. I put all of it on a common DCC bus. This was fun to play with.


----------



## JerryH

I started a new switchboard in TCG. I may rearrange it some later. I wanted to get TCG operational with the new track plan as I like using it so much better than a handheld throttle. I think I will install some signals next.


----------



## JerryH

I installed the signals from the old layout and tested them for function. They are only programmed for the turnout indications at the moment. There is no reason why they won't work as before with rules when I set them in TCG for occupancy as well. This is the last of the electronics move from the old layout. I am surprised that the only mishap I had was frying the PTB100. I replaced and tested it with a new one. On this layout I did away with a separate programming track and now use a hidden DPDT switch to route either track or programming power to a spur track block. Now I have a lot of work to do in TCG to restore full automation:laugh:


----------



## JerryH

The switchboard has more details in it. The trains are made up. The signals are now set to run by "rules" and work as intended. My 2 worse track issues have been resolved with one more to be addressed though it hasn't caused any problems yet.


----------



## JerryH

While proofing my track work, I decided to make my passenger cars run with a little more reliability. Long rolling stock doesn't like track irregularities but they are good for checking the track work. The lights will flicker as the floor pitches away from the contact screws.
The floor was trimmed some, where the screws might make contact. I did away with the contacts above the screws and put small wires from the screws to the floor weights. By eliminating the contacts it also allows more flex in the truck to body mount. The couplers were changed to Kadee's and ensured the extension arm swung properly.


----------



## JerryH

I forgot to mention the part about the diaphragms. I removed the springs from the inside. This allows much easier coupling or decoupling as well as reduced influence on adjoining cars on tight radius curves. The last part may not be necessary with easements or over 36" radius curves. Even though they say they a minimum of 24" radius, that depends on perfect trackage.


----------



## JerryH

Still proofing prior to full automation.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

Looks really good, Jerry.

One thing I noticed is that it appears that you have a number of locations where you're going to need a near vertical wall from the upper level to the lower one when you build your scenery since you don't have a lot of horizontal separation between the tracks or buildings on the two levels. Not sure if that's something you've noticed yourself or not. Maybe that's part of your plan and its expected. Or maybe its an illusion from the angles of the video.

Mark


----------



## JerryH

It is planned to have the near vertical walls.


----------



## JerryH

After a number of days of frustration with TCG, I started from scratch with a second switchboard. I couldn't get rid of a "ghost occupancy" issue that was preventing the automated running of trains. So far I am testing with locos only. Before I couldn't get 2 to run at all and now I have run 5 without a collision  The decision to redo the switchboard came after a collision at the table edge and one loco hit the concrete.


----------



## jackpresley

How do you like the re-design/layout changes compared to the original?

Love the yard and turntable.


----------



## JerryH

It handles the long stuff better. I wish I could have used easements but it wouldn't fit in the allocated space with them.


----------



## 89Suburban

Nice work.


----------



## JerryH

Thanks 89! I still have a long way to go. I need to have, at least, the trains automated by mid April for my 4 yr old grandson. He will only watch them for a few minutes at a time but he will do it a *bunch* of times everyday. His parents are going to Europe for a week, so he will be here for almost two weeks. We are planning lots of day activities.


----------



## JerryH

*6 locomotives running*

I finally got the automation to work.:sold: It still needs some tweaking, someday.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

TC has Schedule Rules that can deal with the issue where a train stops and occupies more than the one stopping block.

You also will likely want to enable "Release Blocks by Occupancy" rather than the default "Release Blocks by Tracking".

This setting is under "Train Tracking".


Also did you include occupancy sensors for the parts of the layout that are not in blocks - such as turnouts and turnout groups?


Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Right now I am not using schedules. I am controlling which locos are allowed in certain blocks. I will remove those restrictions later. I like spontaneous running so that the trains don't always take the same routes. I will check that release in the rules. All turnouts and crossing tracks are detected but I don't know if TC is using that detection. I don't know how to set that up.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Right now I am not using schedules. I am controlling which locos are allowed in certain blocks. I will remove those restrictions later. I like spontaneous running so that the trains don't always take the same routes. I will check that release in the rules. All turnouts and crossing tracks are detected but I don't know if TC is using that detection. I don't know how to set that up.


Hi Jerry,

"Spontaneous Run" (SR) has a set of Rules just like a Schedule does. The difference being is there is just set of rules for SR.

The "Release" option I mentioned is not in the Rules - it is a option under "Train Tracking".

As to occupancy detection for turnouts:

As you know you assign a Contact Indicator (CI) to each Block. And the possibility exists in the "Block Editor" tab of a Block to create a CI for that Block or to reference an existing CI.

You can create CI directly on a SwitchBoard OR in a TC Explorer window.

When you create an CI this way you can reference in a Block AND you can reference in a Turnout under the "Contact Indicator" tab of the Turnout object.

So if have already created CIs for the occupancy detection hardware for the turnouts you only need to add a reference to the correct CI to each Turnout.

If you HAVE NOT created CIs then you will need to create them first.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

There is "turnout monitoring" that requests the detection address in TC. IE Digitrax address x and section x from a BDL168. Would that have the same function as what you suggested?


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> There is "turnout monitoring" that requests the detection address in TC. IE Digitrax address x and section x from a BDL168. Would that have the same function as what you suggested?


I don't see "turnout monitoring" in v9 A3 - are you talking about "Position Control"?

In any case see attached. 

I have created a CI named "Contact Indicator for this Turnout". 

We assume this CI is configured for the actual occupancy detection sensor for "this Turnout".

In the "Indicators" tab of the Turnout dialog you can see where the CI appears as a possibility in the LEFT column and where I have actually assigned to the turnout in the RIGHT column.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Yes, I found it in position control.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

"Position Control" is when you have some sort of means to actually report the physical position of the turnout and can report this position back to TC.

TC knows what position it tried to put a turnout in and with "position control" it can verify that the turnout actually moved into that position.

I don't have it because there is no easy way to verify turnout position.

Yes you could use the contacts on, say, a Tortoise, but this only would report the position of the Tortoise, not the turnout itself.

I have one turnout where the linkage from the Tortoise to the turnout recently broke. If I was monitoring the position of the Tortoise, TC would think all was well, even though the turnout was no longer being moved.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

OK, I will add ci's to all the turnouts and crossings tomorrow. I set the release by occupancy in spontaneous runs and train tracking.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> OK, I will add ci's to all the turnouts and crossings tomorrow. I set the release by occupancy in spontaneous runs and train tracking.


Hi Jerry,

Do you already have the physical occupancy sensing hardware installed for the turnouts?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Yes, I set up individual rail power to each T O from BDL168's. All TO's and crossing paths have unique ID's.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Yes, I set up individual rail power to each T O from BDL168's. All TO's and crossing paths have unique ID's.


Then the hard part is done.

Let me know if you have any problems doing the next step, creating and assigning the Contact Indicators.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Okay, Thank you.


----------



## JerryH

I created the CI's for the turnouts. How do I create them for the 2 crossings? I can't bring up the crossings to add them.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I created the CI's for the turnouts. How do I create them for the 2 crossings? I can't bring up the crossings to add them.


Hi Jerry,

As you likely know TC treats any path from one Block to another Block as a Route.

You can assign a Contact Indicator (CI) to a Route by selecting the Route in the Visual Dispatcher on in a TC Explorer window.

So one approach is to determine all Routes that contain the crossing and assign the CI for the crossing to all of those Routes.


Also when you assign an CI to a Turnout when that Turnout is "occupied" ANY Route containing the Turnout is also treated as occupied.


Frederick


----------



## jackpresley

Just curious, Jerry, what happens on that layout if you turn one of the trains around? Are there the equivalent of two passing sidings on opposite ends of any of the loops? That would be exciting to see in operation and if TC could handle it.


----------



## JerryH

I will add CI's to each crossing route. I checked a CI on a turnout with a loco sitting on it and it showed occupied. That part seems to work. I assume TC will deal with it as it doesn't change color like a block does when occupied. I have 2 detectors on each crossing, one for each path.


----------



## JerryH

Jack, I don't know. The layout is double mainline so there wasn't a need for bidirectional travel. The mainline blocks are all set up as one way. I am sure TC could handle it but it would probably have a lot of wait times with too many trains on the layout.


----------



## JerryH

*EIGHT locos*

I am amazed! :smilie_daumenpos: TCG can run 8 locos  simultaneously on this little layout. :worshippy: That is all that i have.  I will test next with regular trains.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I will add CI's to each crossing route. I checked a CI on a turnout with a loco sitting on it and it showed occupied. That part seems to work. I assume TC will deal with it as it doesn't change color like a block does when occupied. I have 2 detectors on each crossing, one for each path.


There is a way in TC to have the CIs highlight the associated track.

It's a little bit of work as you have to enter the mode where you select the track you wish to have highlighted when the CI is active.

And you have to select the correct highlighting mode for the SwitchBoard.

I think I have a video somewhere the explains it all.

Let me look around.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

That would be nice for verification. Thanks!


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

I sent you an email (I think) with a link to the video.

Let me know if you get it or not.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

*6 Trains*

Here is a test run with 6 trains under automated control with TCG.:smokin:


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Just FYI assuming all Blocks can hold the longest train you might run the theoretical max number of trains TC can run would be the number of Blocks divided by 2.

Each train needs the Block it is current in and the Block it is going to next.

The trains might not run smoothly because of excessive starting/stopping but the should run.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Most of the blocks average about 40". Some are very short and those are most likely to cause an issue when the momentum to stop is a factor, which has proved out to be for both layouts with TC. I am going to eliminate a very short block on the single track right before the double crossing and add resistor wheels on the new military cars once they have been upgraded with metal non-pizza cutter wheels.:laugh:


----------



## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Nothing wrong with having short blocks, TC will make use of them. 

I've got a few under 2 feet.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I was having on rare occasion, while running 6 trains, a collision at the crossings. After putting in the turnout and crossings "highlighting" view in TCG, I discovered what is likely happening. The rolling stock has a single 10K resistor axel on each non lit car. The 2 freight trains are failing to maintain the contact indicator as occupied quite often, as I am tracking by occupancy. Bullet proof occupancy is required for this to work right. I will have to look at those resistor wheels and maybe add more than 1 per car. Decoder equipped and or lit cars don't have this issue.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> The 2 freight trains are failing to maintain the contact indicator as occupied quite often, as I am tracking by occupancy. Bullet proof occupancy is required for this to work right.


Hi Jerry,

What memory setting are you using for your Contact Indicators? 

I always use "Timer - beginning when turning off".

This prevents intermittent wheel contact from causing the block/track occupancy from going away when it should not.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Whatever is default as I don't think I ever looked at the memory settings on the indicators.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Whatever is default as I don't think I ever looked at the memory settings on the indicators.


The default is "Automatic" which means as soon as the signal from the hardware goes "unoccupied" the block goes unoccupied.

Your hardware may also have a adjustable timing which you can use instead.

You can use both if it seems suitable.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Thanks, I will look at that.


----------



## JerryH

I set the indicators as you said with a 1 second time. Rolling through the highlighted track is much better. I still have a few of the old cars that need a look at the resistor connection integrity on the axels.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I set the indicators as you said with a 1 second time. Rolling through the highlighted track is much better. I still have a few of the old cars that need a look at the resistor connection integrity on the axels.


I've been thinking about this issue.

It might be best to use the hardware to handle the intermittent contact issue.

My thinking is this will minimize the number of LocoNet messages being sent by the WatchMan that TrainController has to handle as the hardware will ignore intermittent contact issues and not send messages for these short term changes in occupancy.

The documentation for the WatchMan says the default value is suitable to "debounce" mechanical contacts but I have a feeling that timing may not be ideal for occupancy detection.

I need to contact RR-CirKits and found out what the actual default timing is.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

I have now run 7 trains at the same time without a collision. However, a loco that I just recently got repaired had a side rod screw come out while running 7 trains and it brought everything to a halt!!:SELLIT:


----------



## DonR

Really fascinating Jerry. Impressed with the
gradual stops and starts.

Do the cars with resistor wheels have much
amp drain on the track?

Don


----------



## JerryH

I do not know what the drain is due the resistor wheels. It can't be much as they are 1/8 watt 10000 ohms.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I do not know what the drain is due the resistor wheels. It can't be much as they are 1/8 watt 10000 ohms.


Well if there was 10 volts DC across the resistor the current draw would be 1 mA. With 20 volts DC the current draw would be 2 mA.

The DCC signal on the track is more or less a square wave with an amplitude that varies with scale, command station brand, command station settings, command station power source.

Let's use the 2 mA figure and assume two resistors per car and a train of 25 cars.

That would be (2 + 2) * 25 or 100 mA.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

The 10 year old NOS turntable electronics died and there are no parts available to get it going. I removed all of them and wired in a mobile decoder and I can now run the turntable with a DCC throttle. The indexing is gone but I can eyeball it real easy.


----------



## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> The 10 year old NOS turntable electronics died and there are no parts available to get it going. I removed all of them and wired in a mobile decoder and I can now run the turntable with a DCC throttle. The indexing is gone but I can eyeball it real easy.


Glad to hear you got it working in a way that you like.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

It was an old DC turntable. I gave up automatic indexing for DCC throttle control with variable speed and probably higher reliability. They have a reputation for failure.


----------



## JerryH

*Kaos*

This test was to see what the output voltage and amperage is. The single loco is not speed profiled yet:hah: and at the end of this video, it ran into a turnout causing a shutdown by tripping the PM42.

Video has been removed due to poor playback.


----------



## JerryH

*long trains*

Here is a video with 3 long trains and a shorty. That's all I got. I will probably take the layout apart soon to start on the scenery. I am getting tired of looking at white all the time.


----------



## JerryH

It has finally cooled down, so it's time to work on the layout again. The layout is in 4 sections with the first section up for base scenery. The gray area is for the paved part and the tan is for the desert areas. I used metal screen stapled to the plywood to fill in the gaps between levels. I didn't like the traditional plaster cloth on the previous layout. Brittle, slow curing, and heavy. I am using "Bondo" and am pleased with it so far, even though it is harder to sand. Fine texturing will be done with some sort of drywall putty.


----------



## Magic

Good to see you back at it Jerry.

I had to paint my baseboard as well, couldn't stand all that pink.

Magic


----------



## SantaFeJim

One of the best things about fall/winter is following the progress on Jerry’s layout. I am specially interested in the TC problems & solutions. I bought TCGold and will be using it on my next layout which will be starting in the next 4-6 weeks.

Thanks for the marvelous thread and magnificent version of the expanded Granite Gorge layout.


----------



## JerryH

*thanksgiving gift*

I got this yesterday from my mother in-law. It has been in the family for a long time. I do not know if it runs and it is missing some parts. I looked it up on google. I think it is a Lionel OO gauge 001e. Probably the 003 variant. Maybe the Lionel experts can shed further light.


----------



## ssgt

pre war(ww2) double O,the OO1E is 3 rail


----------



## JerryH

I guess then the center rail pickup is missing, which then makes it the OO1 variant.


----------



## JerryH

I finally put in the crossing signals which I never added to the previous version. This is the likely area where a collision would occur so I always wanted them there. The logic is configured but it is not quite the same rules as the other signals. I will have to run the trains to see. Right now they work fine with just locos. I can't run trains of any length on just one section.


----------



## JerryH

The attached file is a 3rd PlanIt file. Rename the txt file extension to 3pi to use.


----------



## MichaelE

Duplicate


----------



## MichaelE

Is your track power being controlled by the signal logic?

Viessmann signal systems make this very easy to arrange, but they don't make North American type signals.


----------



## JerryH

No. Track power is DCC and Train Controller software runs the decoders for trains, turnouts, and signals.


----------



## MichaelE

I believe that is what the larger layouts in Germany are using like Miniatur Wunderland.


----------



## JerryH

Train Controller was the easiest choice for me to run the layout the way I wanted. Even though the layout is not very big, I am multi train running deficient. I want more than two trains running(boring). The starting and stopping at the various collision points has a lot more spectator appeal for me.


----------



## MichaelE

I'm just the opposite. I want clear track for all trains at all times unless I'm the one that needs to maneuver something out on the main to hold up traffic.

I want to see trains run. If the Germans can't run an efficient railroad anymore, at least I can.


----------



## SantaFeJim

Jerry,

Your layout and the implementation of TC Gold has been a real inspiration for me. I am having a layout built and very much want to operate using TC for those those times (about 95%) when I am the sole operator. My track plan has five places where one main line crosses over to the other.

Now for my question: Do you include the turnouts in the the block boundary? I know that TC states that they should be excluded from the block. The person that will wire my layout strongly disagrees and feels the turnout IS part of the block.

Any experience or feelings on this topic are greatly appreciated.

Thank you.


----------



## JerryH

I built the first version with the turnouts included in the blocks and as far as I could tell, it worked. I did have to alter the stop markers though to prevent stopping in a turnout. This new layout has the turnouts and crossings as separate detection sections but are not defined as blocks or included in the blocks and I think it is the proper way to do it with TC. The turnouts and crossings don't have to be detected at all but may provide some insurance with TC collision avoidance.


----------



## SantaFeJim

Jerry,

Thank you. I will share your response with my layout builder.

Jim


----------



## JerryH

Winter is here again and I didn't get anything done last year. My recent 4014 visit has sparked renewed interest.
After taking and putting this semi portable layout together several times, I decided I want to do the yard as a single removable piece instead of it being part of 3 sections and the attending hassel. It has been disassembled and now is ready for the rebuild.


----------



## JerryH

I made up the new yard panel, reprogrammed TCG for the BXP 88, speed matched my 2 E units, and set them to the same DCC address. They run well together. The addressing in TCG is different with the BXP versus the BDL. The BXP is being used for the lower right section of the screen monitor
.


----------



## fcwilt

That is going to be a nice addition.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

*Yard operations?*

I know nothing about yard ops. The previous yard layout left little length for switching. I am going to relocate the crossover turnouts. This tentative plan gives 30 inches on the tail beyond the turnout and 25 inches between the turnouts on track #4. There is also 30 inches in front of track #6s turnout. This gives the maximum number of tracks with access for the switcher and two 85' cars. The tracks are numbered 1-8 with #1 going to the turntable and #8 on the bottom. Sorry, I couldn't get the picture oriented correctly. If you click a second time on the picture, it will orientate correctly. Does anyone with yard ops have any different ideas? No additional turnouts will be added.


----------



## JerryH

*Track proofing consist*

This is the train I like to prove out the track laying. The long cars and overall length will show your track issues real quick. With addition of a second powered locomotive, I can now pull the curving grades with ease.


----------



## fcwilt

How much clearance do you have on the lower level from railhead to railhead?

In the video it looks like you have quite a lot.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

At that end of the tunnel it is 3.2" from the rail head to the bottom of the plywood which is fine. However at the opposite end of the tunnel I didn't cut the framework deep enough and it is only 2.8". Oops. I didn't realize it until much later when I bought a derrick car that wouldn't fit! I doubt I will correct it now. That is the only car I have that had a problem. I simply shortened the derrick base.


----------



## fcwilt

Interesting.

In the video it looks much taller.

You changed the plan and the tracks that went over now go under - correct?

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Yes I did.


----------



## JerryH

*decoder did what?*

I had a first for me this morning with a decoder. The E8A would light up but no functions would work not even run. It was fine last night when I shut everything down. The B unit was still good. They both use the same DCC address. I put the A unit on the programming track and read the basic CVs and all was well. I was down to a hardware reset but I thought I would just reprogram all CVs from the stored configuration in JMRI. This is very quick to do in JMRI. It worked fine after that. If I had done the BLI hardware reset (push button on decoder) I would have to reprogram it to my settings again. Gotta love JMRI.


----------



## JerryH

*other eight*


----------



## fcwilt

Hi,

Why do you have them both programmed to the same address?

That is generally not a good idea.

It is not needed for running with TC.

Frederick


----------



## JerryH

Does TCG set up loco consists? It just seemed that if I gave both locos the same address they would run together easier as I will have them always lashed up.


----------



## SantaFeJim

JerryH said:


> Does TCG set up loco consists? It just seemed that if I gave both locos the same address they would run together easier as I will have them always lashed up.


I have been doing the same thing for the last 15 years on our club 3-Rail Scale layout. Lots of the other members have copied and all are please with the results.

In a club environment these are usually many visitors and the chatter can get pretty loud. A big advantage of having a single ID for all the units in a lash-up is the sounds (horn & bell) are also in sync. Makes for some picture rattling when 3-4 diesels blast in perfect harmony. 

I will be getting my home HO layout is a couple of weeks and will employ the same practice.

BTW I will also be running under TCG so you guys can expect a ton of newbie questions from ME.

Jerry I love how you have E X P A N D E D the classic GG&N.

Keep those videos coming. :thumbsup::thumbsup: Thanks,

Jim


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## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Does TCG set up loco consists? It just seemed that if I gave both locos the same address they would run together easier as I will have them always lashed up.


When TC sees you have placed two or more locos in the same train it takes care of controlling them regardless of their DCC address.

One of the reason for profiling is so TC knows how to control each loco to keep them working together, speed wise, and not fighting one another.

It doesn't change anything in the loco decoder settings, it just knows that multiple locos are in the same train and controls them accordingly.

By using the same DCC address for both locos then TC has know way of balancing loco speed since it doesn't have profile information for each loco separately.


So give each loco it's own DCC address, profile each loco and TC will happily control any combination of locos for you.


It's the best approach to "consisting" I know of, since I don't have to mess with any decoder settings. I can run any loco with any other loco(s) anytime I wish.


Frederick


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## JerryH

I will try it that way in the future. That would be slick. The speed profiling I can do, but what do you use to compare the momentum and acceleration? Just eyeball them chasing?


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## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> I will try it that way in the future. That would be slick. The speed profiling I can do, but what do you use to compare the momentum and acceleration? Just eyeball them chasing?


You need to setup the decoders with some basic speed related values:

Vmin: so you get a good steady low speed that doesn't stall.

I just mess with this value until I am happy.


Vmax: whatever you want the max speed for a given loco to be.

In the profiling section of TC you can profile a single one of TCs 14 or so profiling points.

The last of these is going to profile the max speed of the loco.

I just repeatedly run this single point, max speed "profile", changing Vmax until I get the speed I want.


Most decoders have Vmin and Vmax. Some also have Vmid which gives you a 3 point speed curve. 

Some have a 28 point speed table which gives you, as you might expect, a 28 point speed curve.


The Acceleration and Deceleration values are going to be 0 or 1, as TC handles acceleration and deceleration.


Frederick


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## JerryH

*removable yard*

I can now handle the yard as a single removable panel. The turnouts all work and the blocks are powered. I still have to reassign the blocks and TO detectors in TCG. The trains run fine so i think everything is wired correctly.


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## fcwilt

Hi,

Looks good. 

On my layout I have a small, 5 track double end classification yard and a large 8 track single ended passenger terminal.

I run a number of different Schedules out of the passenger yard complete with announcement made using the TC add-on 4D Sound.

Frederick


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## JerryH

I changed the E8B to a different address than the A unit. Sure enough TCG consisted them automatically when they are in the same train. That's a great feature "automatic consist" and they run real good together.
I also got all the blocks readdressed in TCG for the relocated block detection boards.
I put the signals back on today and noticed some logic errors I made in TCG previously which I am correcting now.
The grandkids are coming in about ten days but I am close to having things fully operational again so I should make it in time. They get a real kick with the trains reacting to the changing traffic conditions all by themselves without a human running things.


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## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

Glad to hear things are going well.

Hope you and yours have a wonderful time this holiday season.

Frederick


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## JerryH

Yours too. I forgot how to do the occupancy indications for the turnouts and crossings. I thought I saved your step by step instructions but I can't find them anymore. It seems to me it was routes with macros maybe?


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## fcwilt

JerryH said:


> Yours too. I forgot how to do the occupancy indications for the turnouts and crossings. I thought I saved your step by step instructions but I can't find them anymore. It seems to me it was routes with macros maybe?


Do you mean connecting a turnout to an external occupancy detection device OR the highlighting of the track when a route (with or without turnouts) is occupied?

Frederick


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## JerryH

Highlighting the track turnouts and crossings.


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## fcwilt

I think this is what you are asking about:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/541d7ti6upceulp/TC Highlighting.html?dl=0


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## JerryH

All I get is the html coding.


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## fcwilt

OK try this one:

https://www.dropbox.com/preview/Mis...ighlighting/TC Highlighting.mp4?role=personal


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## JerryH

Didn't work. It wants me to sign in. If I sign in, only my files show.


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## fcwilt

Hi Jerry,

OK I emailed you the MP4 file.

Frederick


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## JerryH

That is it. Thanks
Highlighted occupied turnouts is a really neat feature for me. I can see when the train has cleared on the screen in the yard which is too far to see for me from the other side. The turnouts are stacked closely and it is hard tell which it is by eyeball. I put it on YT so others can see your method.


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## JerryH

Here is the view of the turnouts that I want the occupancy showing on the screen.


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## JerryH

Here is the view from where I sit.


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## JerryH

Here is a video on how this works. I can tell when I can throw the turnout by the screen indications as to which turnouts are clear.


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## JerryH

This is the underside of the removable yard and the associated electronics. There are 2 quick connect plugs that share electronic duties with two other sections and another that provides DCC and power to the yard.


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## Tejas Counselor

JerryH said:


> Since the decision has been made that this version is not big enough to suit me, I am going to redesign it again to conform to a class "P" NMRA standard. I will recover all the electronics and buildings but not the rest.


Jerry, what ended happening to your old layout?I model the exact layout. Just curious.


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## JerryH

I still have it.


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## Tejas Counselor

JerryH said:


> I still have it.


I still have the basic layout, but mine came in such disrepair, that I lost one of the bridges but built a station track inside one of the ovals. Jut now converting to DCC. I have a town on one end and farm on the other. I'm always looking for parts to keep renovating. Let me know if you ever want to part with it. Mine is just one piece and very cumbersome to move. From what I'm reading, I'm just up the interstate from you in Central Texas. Next time in your area, I need to come see your current layout.


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## norgale

Good looking layout. Lots going on there. Is that 4 x 8?


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## JerryH

I am in northwest San Antonio. Just let me know when you want to come by.


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## Tejas Counselor

norgale said:


> Good looking layout. Lots going on there. Is that 4 x 8?


9X5. It was my uncles. He built basic layout in the 70s and it sat in a garage since then. I took it when he passed away and started renovating in December, It was just a board and track then.


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## Tejas Counselor

JerryH said:


> I am in northwest San Antonio. Just let me know when you want to come by.


Any hobby store open in your area?


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## norgale

Well you sure have done a lot to it then. I'm trying to enlarge the picture to see the details better but that doesn't want to work. Any ideas?


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## quigly7777

Tejas, looks great, where are you located. I am in Taylor, built a modified GG&N that is 5X10. I built it so it can be split in half for moving and have done it a couple times. Using DCC, set up with JMRI on a laptop for the turnouts.


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## JerryH

Tejas Counselor said:


> Any hobby store open in your area?





Tejas Counselor said:


> Any hobby store open in your area?








Home | San Antonio, TX | Dibble's Hobbies


Dibble's Hobbies in San Antonio, Texas, offers all types of hobby products.




www.dibbleshobbies.com


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## quigly7777

Jerry, just looked at your link to Dibbles. I said open since 2013???? I used to live in San Antonio but before 2013 and remeber Dibbles. Is this a second version??


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## JerryH

Same family but I think in a different location. They have been in business a lot longer than since 2013.


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## Tejas Counselor

quigly7777 said:


> Tejas, looks great, where are you located? I am in Taylor, built a modified GG&N that is 5X10. I built it so it can be split in half for moving and have done it a couple times. Using DCC, set up with JMRI on a laptop for the turnouts.


Thanks. Just north of you in Belton. I need to drive to Taylor to look at your layout soon, or come on up to see my version. I didn't know my layout was a plan. My cousin found the original plans from an Atlas design book dated 1958. It has been fun to find the history of the layout. The only issues I'm having are the grades and the wiring needs updating. My grade are north of 2.5% Any loco struggles with a load up the hill. I bought an old MRC DCC system and it works great. Half is DCC while the other half can be either DC/DCC. I have some Blue BoxLocos that I still like to run. Just need to convert them over to DCC. I can order decoders but trying to support local shops so I'm waiting until I can get to Houston or Dallas to buy. Still trying to settle on which decoders. Do you have a favorite? Love to pick some up used.)

In the future. I would enjoy finding another old layout and putting the two together.


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## Tejas Counselor

JerryH said:


> Same family but I think in a different location. They have been in business a lot longer than since 2013.


Not open today.


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## quigly7777

Tejas, sounds like a plan. For a layout this small I use Digitrax Zephyr. Fair warning, I really do not get into scenery, more into just running and electronce, so, mine is bare except for a few buildings.


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## Tejas Counselor

I sat down and ran three and four trains tonight on the railway. There isn’t too difficult but four gets a bit hectic. I pinky have four DCC locos so that’s the maximum I can run at any one time.
I ordered some basic decoders this week and will start converting my blue box locos. It is going to be fun.


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## quigly7777

Most excellent. Keep us posted. I will get a pic of mine up soon.


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## Tejas Counselor

JerryH said:


> Same family but I think in a different location. They have been in business a lot longer than since 2013.


Jerry, I’m looking to build a JRMI program track. Basically, all I need is a computer, JRMI program, an interphase like a PR4 and a short bit of track. Am I missing anything?


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## JerryH

That should do it. I use a spur track on the layout that is double insulated and a DPDT switch to feed main or program power to it. That way I can run the loco in and out of the spur when I want to program it.


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## Tejas Counselor

Tejas Counselor said:


> Jerry, I’m looking to build a JRMI program track. Basically, all I need is a computer, JRMI program, an interphase like a PR4 and a short bit of track. Am I missing anything?


Any idea where I can find a use one?


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## Tejas Counselor

Converted my first blue box loco to DCC using decoders from xlsystemsdcc.com. Hard to find room in this little switcher but made it work. Still need to work out lights. Do you use the bulb or convert to LED?


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## JerryH

All my lights are LEDs.


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## Trackjockey05

JerryH said:


> This will be my first model railroad. I did put an HO oval on a piece of 4x8 once when my children were young that the Christmas tree centered in, but I considered that a toy train. My, how things have changed in the last 30 + years.
> 
> When I was a child, my father started but never completed the Central Midland. I wanted the GG&N. He won the discussion. I made up my mind 47 years ago that I would build one someday. That day has come. It is probably too much for a first timer, but this what I want. We will see.
> 
> I spent the first 2 months reading all I could while redesigning the original Atlas plan. This includes 22 minimum radius, less than 3% grades, semi-portable, reduced busy look, DCC, and completely automated computer contol.
> 
> I am not into operations, so the design is to display and let 'em run. Ultimately, I hope to have 2 trains, running in opposite directions, on each mainline and a local freight interspersing between both mainlines. With the mountain area covering half the mainlines, it should be quite fascinating to watch. With three passing tracks and computer control I think it can be possible.
> 
> I started construction 2 months ago. Please look at the pictures and give your experienced opinions. I may have gone too far already to correct any serious problems. The track is not tested and no scenery is done yet. This is my last chance to fix a poor plan.


I love those old Atlas track plans, when I was a teen I always wanted to build the Central Midland, even started buying Atlas track and components for the project, but never did it, I actually still have a bunch of Atlas controllers and such still in the packages from back then, I’ve even considered updating that plan and building it now, you got a beautiful looking setup there


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## quigly7777

I still have that book. My GG&N is modified, but the basic design.


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## Tejas Counselor

Pictures? This is mine.


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## Trackjockey05

quigly7777 said:


> I still have that book. My GG&N is modified, but the basic design.


If I was to mod the Central Midland plan it would just be to stretch it out and broaden the curves, same basic plan just a little bigger, I still have that old book as well


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## Tejas Counselor

That’s quite a layout idea. How much room do you have?


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## quigly7777

This is my modified GG&N. It is two levels. At the far end, I put in a turnout and that is the track that goes thru the single bridge on the right and acts as a reversing loop. On the lower level just before the double track bridge is a double crossover. It is operated using a Digitrax Zephyr Plus. Turnouts are all Peco and the switch machines are controlled by Digitrax DS64s. Digitrax AR1 for the reversing loop. Also added PM42 Power manager, layout has 4 blocks. I am using a RR-CirKits USB Loco Buffer to the Zephyr and control the turnouts from a laptop running JMRI. This has been going for many years, off and on. I am not really a scenery guy, more into the electronics and just watching trains run. Have oodles of rolling stock, mostly unbuilt.


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## cfurnari

I am working on designing a merged layout of he Granite Gorge and another layout (both I had some years ago). they were both torn down for different reasons. at this point, I have a SCARM design, and a woodworking design of the table I will be using. The table will end up in 6 sections. After reading this thread, I will likely build in 3 paired folding sections (2 5x10, and a 4x8). The 4x8 will have a siding yard, while the 5x10 parts will have the granite northern, and a Tyco expanded layout. They appear to interconnect well. It is likely I will not be able to start building until December or January. I am stuck on moving some measurements between SCARM and the woodworking CAD programs. Once I get my mind around comparing apples to apples, in these programs, I should be fine. I know deciding upon where the low point is, and how the elevations figure in. I have a SCARM design (I think from here), and how I should be changing the original 5x9 to 6x10 layout measurements. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## JerryH

It is amazing how many things need fixing after a long period of storage! My grandson is coming so I put it all back together and discovered a bunch of issues. Some trackage, some electrical, and some rolling stock. Well I have a week to sort it out.


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## jackpresley

JerryH said:


> It is amazing how many things need fixing after a long period of storage! My grandson is coming so I put it all back together and discovered a bunch of issues. Some trackage, some electrical, and some rolling stock. Well I have a week to sort it out.


Merry Christmas Jerry!

I just logged on to ask how the old GGN was running and this thread was right on top! Hope you get it all running easily. 

My grandsons are completely addicted to trains like their grandpa was at their age. "Pawpaw train?" first thing they greet me with in the morning. Can't wait to have them back for Christmas.

-Jack


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## JerryH

Merry Christmas to you and yours. I have it running now. Since the layout resides in a non-climate controlled garage, an interesting issue has developed. The trains would run after a good track cleaning but TrainController needs absolutely reliable block detection to work properly. The Euro type connectors I used for the feeders had to be loosened and retightened as well as reseating the BDL cards in the Acculite boards with their attachment screws to reestablish optimal connectivity. I may eventually have to use some sort of conductive lube on those connections in the future.


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## afboundguy

Wow nice to see what the layout my father and I started when I was young looks like!!! I just used the remnants of that layout for scraps in my build And so it begins... My 1956 PRR mainline HO build thread... | Model Train Forum and it was funny members picked up that it was this design right away!


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## ScottInAZ

Hello everyone,
I'm new to the forum, and would love to start interacting with everyone. My name is Scott, and I'm from Arizona. Quick background: I started building the Granite Gorge & Northern layout (straight from the Atlas book) with my dad when I was a teenager. Unfortunately, due to life, I never got beyond building the wood structure and laying the track. Now as an older adult (35 years later), I'm interested to finish my project. When searching the Internet for advice, I came across this blog (and JerryH's journey). Like others who have commented, I found some of his ideas very creative.

Considering this thread, is a bit old, I'm unsure if anyone will post here, but figured I'd give it a try. I'm interested to get some initial / high-level advice on the following:

Fortunately, I still have my initial setup, but unfortunately, the wood frame and plywood surface have been sitting for almost 35 years, which has resulted with the wood being quite brittle. (Arizona summers are brutal.) Setting it up and taking it down has cracked some of the pieces. I've made a decision to keep the original 1x4 lattice, but start over with new plywood and track layout. I've also considered making the outer 5x9 frame from 2x4 just to add some extra strength while taking it up and down. I loved JerryH's concept of the foldup mechanism and would love to get his and other's advice on this before I begin.

Anyway, I'm hoping to embark on a fun journey and one that will make my dad smile from above for finally finishing a 40-year-old project.  
I'd love advice from the forum on this layout and perhaps some ideas to get me started on the right foot.

Thanks,
Scott


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## Fire21

Welcome, Scott! Always great to see new members. I'm Bob in SW Colorado. I enjoy talking and looking at model trains, but don't have a layout...not enough room. There are lots of people here who will respond to questions and offer advice. We have everything from experts to novices. Besides, sometimes it's just fun discussing all sorts of things. We do try to keep it civil by severely limiting political talk!...the subject is just too sensitive.

Again, welcome and enjoy the forum.


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## jackpresley

ScottInAZ said:


> Hello everyone,
> I'm new to the forum, and would love to start interacting with everyone. My name is Scott, and I'm from Arizona. Quick background: I started building the Granite Gorge & Northern layout (straight from the Atlas book) with my dad when I was a teenager. Unfortunately, due to life, I never got beyond building the wood structure and laying the track. Now as an older adult (35 years later), I'm interested to finish my project. When searching the Internet for advice, I came across this blog (and JerryH's journey). Like others who have commented, I found some of his ideas very creative.
> 
> Considering this thread, is a bit old, I'm unsure if anyone will post here, but figured I'd give it a try. I'm interested to get some initial / high-level advice on the following:
> 
> Fortunately, I still have my initial setup, but unfortunately, the wood frame and plywood surface have been sitting for almost 35 years, which has resulted with the wood being quite brittle. (Arizona summers are brutal.) Setting it up and taking it down has cracked some of the pieces. I've made a decision to keep the original 1x4 lattice, but start over with new plywood and track layout. I've also considered making the outer 5x9 frame from 2x4 just to add some extra strength while taking it up and down. I loved JerryH's concept of the foldup mechanism and would love to get his and other's advice on this before I begin.
> 
> Anyway, I'm hoping to embark on a fun journey and one that will make my dad smile from above for finally finishing a 40-year-old project.
> I'd love advice from the forum on this layout and perhaps some ideas to get me started on the right foot.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott


Welcome aboard. The GGN is a fun layout due to the illusion of reversing loops (there aren't any), trains passing on parallel lines and the ability to move from one line to the other without running the trains into a head-on collision. The double 90* crossings also will keep you on your toes as you run multiple trains.

The advice Jerry gave me was solid. The layout is a tricky build with many grade changes with turnouts/switches in these grades. I believe his original layout was slightly larger, I'd have to dig back through this thread. His latest version is much larger.

I built the layout, briefly, in N scale on 4x8. Doing a scale conversion from N to HO meant I had expanded the layout significantly and thus it would have been easier to build permanently.

I heard about a GGN for sale in a nearby town and went to see it in person. It was built exactly to John Armstrong's plan (with a later addition). When the son of the builder demonstrated it, his daughter immediately took her place near the "shingle" switch beneath the mountain (right side of the plan in the Atlas book). Apparently she assisted her grandfather by re-railing trains that derailed trains here -- and she was again needed during the demo. So that's the whole "constructive" point in this post. Use care in that area.

Welcome back to the hobby.
-Jack


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## BigGRacing

Scott, great to have you aboard. I have always liked the plan as well. I look forward to watching your progress and suggest you take a read of some of the builds in the layout thread. Many great modellers on the forum that have assisted me over the past two years for sure.


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## Stejones82

Welcome Scott - - - ask away! As you will see from perusing the forum, we have many positive and helpful contributors who will try to help as best they are able. And we have some others as well. I have stuck with the forum and have developed an internal filter. Enjoy! 

Steve J


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## cfurnari

Welcome Scott

I also had a Granite Gorge and Northern years ago. It got lost, after an argument with a fire inspector, who didn't like it blocking a fire exit. I suppose too big for the room it was in, although one could walk around it. Now that I got room, my plans keep getting pushed (happy wife, happy life type projects).


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