# Peco Insulfrog Short Help



## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I have a few cars that short when going through some Peco Insulfrog turnouts. I see that it is recommended to paint or use nail polish the frog to alleviate the problem. But I can't find a photo or diagram of where to apply the paint/polish.

Can anyone provide a photo or scetch of where to apply the paint/polish?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Shorts on turnouts*



bonez said:


> I have a few cars that short when going through some Peco Insulfrog turnouts. I see that it is recommended to paint or use nail polish the frog to alleviate the problem. But I can't find a photo or diagram of where to apply the paint/polish.
> 
> Can anyone provide a photo or scetch of where to apply the paint/polish?


bonez;

I don't think you have a problem that can be fixed by nail polish. The fix you're referring to is for a problem that most commonly happens on some Atlas turnouts, though I suppose it could also occur on other brands. What happens is that the plastic frog wears out to the point that the two rails are exposed. Since, in an Atlas turnout, the two rails are of opposite polarity, a metal wheel can short across these rails. The Nail polish is then painted on top of the frog, re-insulating the rails, temporarily. When the nail polish wears off, the short comes back and a new coat of nail polish is needed.

Peco insulfrog turnouts are made differently. They are "current routing" turnouts. This means that only one of the stock rails, and therefore only one electrical polarity, is applied to the points at a time. It's very unlikely that a metal wheel will be able to contact both frog exit rails at the same time. Not impossible, but very unlikely.
There may be other things going on. Have you checked the gage of the wheels, particularly on the offending cars, with an NMRA gage? Have you checked the track gage through the turnout? Does the same problem happen on other turnouts or just one?
If you don't have an NMRA gage, you should get one. It's an essential tool for any model railroad. You can order one from your hobby shop, or from www.walthers.com 

The pdf files below may help you. The one on "Improving Atlas turnouts" shows how an NMRA gage can be used to check many things on a turnout.

Good luck,

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment Improving Atlas turnouts pdf version.pdf


View attachment Where do I start (revised version).pdf


View attachment MODEL RAILROADING ON A BUDGET.pdf


View attachment Model Railroad Terminology 2.1.pdf


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Tractionfan has pretty much covered the problem.

However you asked where to apply the nail polish. Look closely
at the frog end of the turnout. You'll see that the left
rail of the diverting track is separated only by a
sliver of plastic from the right rail of the straight track.

Possibly the problem can be traced to specific cars
that have wheels with a wider then usual tread or
the wheel set may be out of gauge. Those wheels span
the thin insulation. Replacing the wheels on those
cars would be the rest resolution. There is no
defect in the turnouts.

I have more than 20 Peco Insulfrogs on my layout
and did notice a similar problem with the wheels
on one of my locos. I did use the clear nail polish
on ONE of the rail points at the frog and that ended
the shorts. It has been in service for a couple of
years and has not recurred.

Others have filed ONE of the rail points meeting at
the frog which eliminates the possibility of a wheel
shorting between the two points.

Don


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I just finished watching a video of this very same problem. The operator used a thin sliver of plastic on the inside rail of the frog to insulate the wheel from the other side of the frog.

This was through a 12° crossing, but the principle is the same. And it worked.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Insulfrog turnouts have dead frogs, so there should be no shorting there. The only possible short is where the two closure rails pinch and then kink to form the wing guards beside the frog point. Flanges that are in gauge should never be able to touch that other closure rail. If they do, you have a defect of some kind.

The only other place, and its much more common, is immediately upon separation of the points rails, the two inner rails of the two diverging routes that meet to form the frog point. Right after that small black spacer, the insulator, the wider Code 100 wheels might momentarily bridge between the two rails at that narrowest place and touch each other. That will cause the shorts detection circuitry to squawk.

The cure for this is either to sever one of the two points rails about 3/16" (4mm-ish) further away from the insulator to create a wider insulated separation, which is effective and permanent, or to paint both rails with clear nail varnish covering the same area, about 4mm outward. This is effective, but not permanent.


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## WIrailfan (Mar 6, 2016)

I've had this same problem, my layout has all peco turnouts. Would leave the basement with 2 trains running with the sound off, come back 5 minutes later and sound would be back on......sometimes only on one loco! FINALLY it did it when I was down there and it was briefly shorting but couldn't tell where, so I turned all the lights off and actually saw the little sparks on a few turnouts :laugh: In for solutions as well.....have heard of the nail polish thing but was unsure where to put it!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Here is the fix I watched for this problem yesterday.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

So Peco turnouts aren't as bullet proof as many say?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Dave


The problem with shorting is not a defect of
the Peco Insulfrog. It is caused by wheels with
a wider than normal tread or out of gauge
trucks.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Peco turnouts*



DavefromMD said:


> So Peco turnouts aren't as bullet proof as many say?


DavefromMD;

Peco turnouts are very reliable. They come in two varieties. "Insulfrog" (plastic frog), and "Electrofrog" (metal frog). As DonR says, if your wheels are gaged correctly and don't have over-width tires, then the shorts described won't happen. 
The metal, Electrofrog can be isolated from the other rails in the turnout and have it's polarity switched by the contacts of a switch machine, or a simple micro-switch. This totally eliminates the potential short circuit caused by wheels spanning two rails of opposite electrical polarity at the frog. All the rails that form the entire frog are switched to the correct polarity and no matter what rails the wheels touch, they can't short anything.
I make my own (N-scale turnouts, with metal frogs, and use the same electrical setup just described. No shorts.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DavefromMD said:


> So Peco turnouts aren't as bullet proof as many say?


Nothing is guaranteed bullet proof. But the better brands of turnouts have far fewer issues than cheapo's do.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Personally I argue the Insulfrog has a design flaw or weakness making shorts happen too often. The real sad thing is the new Peco code 83 #6 Unifrog has the same weakness. And what sucks more is the Electrofrog #6 has been discontinued so the alternative is gone.

Bad on Peco! When I discovered the bad news, I went on a hunting expedition to track down enough Peco Electrofrog #6 for my needs. At least Peco #7 curved and#8 turnouts are still available in both Insul and Electro frog for now.


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