# 682 powered by a cw-80?



## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I have a cw-80 and a fast track. I recently got a 682 6-8-6. When running this engine with 2-3 cars the green light on the transformer blinks constantly. Anyway to remedy this or should I sell the cw80 or trade for a higher wattage tansformer? If I do with a higher rated transformer does anyone handy wattage recommendations? This is a very simple circular track. No ocarina lea to consider except my son would like to pull about 5-6 cars.

Thanks
Jay


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Small layout, not much there to eat up power. Any accessories, are the 5/6 cars lighted? The cw 80 should have enough power for that! Is the track clean? The locomotive lubed and cleaned? Did you try running another engine on the track? I haven't had one of those transformers hooked up in a while but I think blinking is a short. If you run another engine on the track with that transformer, if it works fine the problem is in loco, if it doesn't run, the problem is in the track or transformer. I think some of the cw 80 were prone to problems. Keep us updated, someone will have better info!


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

You should upgrade to a bigger transformer such as a postwar KW or ZW if you plan on expanding your layout and adding another train or accessories. They are rated at 190 and 275 watts input power respectively. Output power will be somewhat less. Postwar locomotives with the big open frame motors such as your 682 use more power than todays can motored locomotives. There are other smaller wattage transformers, such as the TW you may consider. Remember one maxim of toy trains: You can never have too much power.

Another thing to consider is the overhaul and lubrication of the locomotive. Postwar cars need their wheel bearings lubricated also. Lubrication will decrease the current draw on your transformer and make your trains run better.

Larry


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks Sjm. The track is clean. I just received this from Trainz.com (ebay) in an online bid. However I am in the mist of cleaning the wheels now and lubing it. I will let you know how that turns out. I surprised at how filthy they sold this. The cars I am running with it do not have any lights or additional power to draw. I hope like heck it isn't the locomotive or the transformer. I have run another newer Polar express engine on it with not problems. Ugh if this turns out to the be locomotive , it will be the 2nd one I have gotten off ebay that was said to be in good running condition but failed to work.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I will clean the engine up first and see how it runs and if there are no marginal improvements I will look into the cleaning of the engine and upgrading the transformer. What a pain in the but.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I thought Trainz goes over all their trains by a "qualified" service person?
Did they advertise it that way? As being going over by their service people?

I bet it needs a thorough service job. Look for crud in the gears and clean them up, lube the whole thing, a lot here just use a motor oil for almost everything but the worm gears. Clean it up. I would clean the brushes and armature too, if the rest is filled with crud that is too.

I have 2 cw-80's, the one I have hooked up to all my lights blink if I give it full power.
I have it hooked to the throttle side so I can dim them when I want.
If I back off the throttle it will stop blinking. Maybe one of my lights have a short?
If so why would it stop blinking when I back off the throttle? I do have a lot of lights hooked up to it, and if I back it down just a little bit it stops blinking.

I am using my cw-80's just for accessories and lights, I have the ZW for the trains. 

I won't ever buy another cw-80, I got mine fairly cheap years ago but I don't like them.
I would buy a different one.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Any transformer will blink the light (like the CW 80) or trip the breaker if it is overloaded, and does not necessarily indicate a short circuit. The reason that the Polar Express engine runs on your layout is because the can motor in that engine draws much less current than the motor in the 682 and the CW 80 can handle it. Overhaul the 682 and see if it runs better.

It seems that Trainz and other sellers that advertize their items as 'running' or 'looked at by a service technician' does not necessarily mean that it was cleaned and overhauled. Unless you are paying a premium for overhauling an item, I would not expect it. Most items are just checked to see if they operate, and then are sold 'as is'. I worked for a hobby shop and every used item we sold was fully cleaned and overhauled, and the prices reflected it.

Larry


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

I have 2 of them and they work fine. The flashing green light means a short. Put the engine on the track without any cars or the tender. The Fastrack is pretty decent stuff, you can even pull one or a couple of straights and try the engine on that. If it works then check the tender and each car separately.

The tender has a whistle in it so that may be an issue. Any way, test each piece individually. If it's the tender let us know and we'll take it from there.

If it's the engine 2 things immediately occur to me. 

1) I did manage to lodge one of the horseshoe retainers between the one of wheels and frame. 

2) What I had with my 685 (and what you can find with many of the older ones is some of the wires inside have become frayed, especially the smoke unit. My 685 shed it's insulation on the wire to the smoke unit. Now when it was disassembled it seemed to work fine. When I put the shell back on it shorted. Grrrr.

Fortunately, it is a fairly easy fix but unless you have a dealer nearby you won't get the parts before Christmas. You can remove hot lead from the smoke unit (just cut it with a pair of wire nippers. Then tape the end with electrical tape.

There is a single wire going to the smoke unit and it grounds through the frame. The heating element has a cloth wrapped insulating sheath which considering how old it is has most likely decomposed. If the bared wire contacts the metal smoke unit or the metal shell, bzzzzt!

Let us know what you find out.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TrainLarry said:


> Any transformer will blink the light (like the CW 80) or trip the breaker if it is overloaded, and does not necessarily indicate a short circuit. Larry


OK, I do have a whole bunch of bulbs and things hooked up to it.
If I turn it on and adjust the throttle all the way maxed out, it will still light everything but blink. Back the throttle back just a bit and the blinking will stop.
I guess I got to add the watts on everything up.
I still have the other CW-80 to continue adding more.

The CW-80's have a circuit breaker in them ( I thought). Why the blinking instead of tripping the circuit breaker.

I don't know what it is I still don't like the CW-80's. 
What it might be is because I got them before the ZW.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Before you spend a lot of money on a transformer, let's try some simple fixes. The transformer may just be seeing the electrical noise generated by the brushes in the locomotive. Try putting a 10uf 50V non-polarized capacitor directly across the track feeds from the CW-80 and see if that stops the overload flashing.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When the green light on a CW-80 blinks, it means the load is drawing too much current, and the electronics reduces the output voltage until the load is reduced. It doesn't mean a short circuit necessarily. 

I think a CW-80 should run a post war loco OK. I suspect that your loco needs to be lubed which requires removing the shell. The motor in your loco drives only the rear drivers and the other drivers are driven though the side rods which means you must lube the side rods. You also need to lube the motor, the worm gear, and all of the driver axles. Also lube the leading and trailing truck and the tender and all of your cars.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've seen the overload light on the CW-80 triggered by electrical noise, which is why I suggest the capacitor.

I totally agree that a proper cleaning and lube is a great idea here, and should be done no matter what kind of transformer you have.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Grj, not everyone has a spare capacitor laying around, will a drop of oil on the communicator cut down or change the electrical noise? I haven't a clue just an idea. I think there's plenty of power for that loco. Might just be hardened grease, causing a lot of friction!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I found this at four Radio Shack stores close to my house: 10uf 50V NP Capacitor. 

You don't actually need it lying around, you can buy them.


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## Crofinger (Nov 22, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've seen the overload light on the CW-80 triggered by electrical noise, which is why I suggest the capacitor.
> 
> I totally agree that a proper cleaning and lube is a great idea here, and should be done no matter what kind of transformer you have.


Question? Why would a 10 uf 50v cap tell you if it is electrical noize?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The capacitor swamps the spikes coming in to the transformer and triggering the electronic current sensing circuit. As you can see in the schematic below, the CW-80 has a fairly complex voltage control and monitoring circuit.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Quick and maybe basic question. How do
I remove the brush cover plate? I unload ended the two screws but the wires leading the back of the plate are soldered pretty tight and seems I wond have room to remove the plate unless I unsolder the wires. Is I soldering the wires required or do I have enough room to remove to get the brushes? Let me know and thanks. I can send pics.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Normally, you can swivel the plate off with the wires intact. If not, then you'll have to unsolder them.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks. I got it off. I had to unsolder and then resolder the wires. I will have everything else cleaned up tomorrow and see how it runs with the cw-80


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Did you take the shell off of the loco?


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Yes I took the shell off the engine and also cleaned the worm gear which was caked with old grease. I removed the brush cover and cleaned polished the commutator and brushes. I went a heady and resembled it. No I just need to place new grease in the worm gear drive and clean the wheels today.

Gunrunner. I will also grab two or three capacitors today at radio shack. Do you have a pic of how I should instal it in the trAck?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Cool, I think you'll be up and running just in time! If the old grease was hard that may have been the problem, maybe no need for anything else! Give it a try first.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I am looking at adding white lithium grease to the worm gear. Would that be the grease of choice?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You simply connect one of the capacitors directly across the track feeds from the transformer.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Sorry Gunnrunner. I don't know much about electricity so what you just said is like Egyptian to me. No offense pictures sometimes are a thousand words lol.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Use motor oil rather than grease for everything. I have used it for years and it never dries out and gets hard or gummy. I have 3 736 locos and I lube them with oil. Works fine. 5W-20 or 10W-30.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Do you guys think a Lionel LW 125 watt transformer would work well for my needs? Again nothing sophisticated. Just an engine and 4-5 cars. I have been watching them on ebay but they seem a little pricey compared to a KW. In some cases they are the same amount.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I will give the 5w 20 motorcraft oil a try. I understand what you mean about the grease in a worm gear. On the side I rebuild snow throwers and some of the old ones from the 50's and 60's worm gear cases usually display a harden and dried out grease. I usually replace them with outboard lower unit oil which is a very thick oil but quiets the gears. Thanks


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think the cw 80 should be enough power. Get the loco back on the track and we will know for sure!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If I were choosing between the LW and the KW, it's no contest, the KW all the way!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I agree. The KW is a lot of transformer for not much money.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Hey guys, I finally got it assembled and put back on the track. She runs really good.
To get her going takes about 3/4 throttle. I do notice a blue spark throughs the brush plate which I believe is correct since it's the brushes pressing again the commutator correct? Also I have a clicking noise coming from the noise. Any additional help would be appreciated.

Also I want to think everyone for not treating me like a newbie. You often see that in forums where the guys with the knowledge like to pick on or intimidate the new members. You guys were awesome and accepted and helped me without any sarcasm. Thank you guys. I will try to post a pic later.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

We were all newbie's once.  Some sparking at the commutator is normal as long as it's not a flame. 

The "clicking" noise could be the smoke unit lever being hit by the rod to pump the smoke out, see if it happens when the rod is forward, I believe the one on the right side.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I am not sure what you mean by the smoke lever? I am familiar with the drive lever but not any other levers sorry.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's a PDF file with a breakdown of a Lionel Steam Turbine. The 4th page has the smoke unit, but it appears the lever is internal on this model. It could account for the clicking, but it's harder to see.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I took a look at the internal Smoke lever but sure how it would creat the clicking noise. I believe the sound is coming from the Slide rod spacer.


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## emmetd (Aug 1, 2012)

the CW-80 has an electronic crow bar circuit in it that begins to shut down the voltage when the load
to the track AND the accessory,s is about 90% of total load (5amps) the blinking light is a warning that
tells that an overload is present. after a few seconds of blinking the crow bar circuit will shut down output.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

emmetd said:


> the CW-80 has an electronic crow bar circuit in it that begins to shut down the voltage when the load
> to the track AND the accessory,s is about 90% of total load (5amps) the blinking light is a warning that
> tells that an overload is present. after a few seconds of blinking the crow bar circuit will shut down output.


To replace that you have to have a special tool to open her up right?
Or make your own?
I think there is a thread here somewhere on this.

So when I power mine up all the way I am about to set off the breaker, with me powering down a hair fixes the overload?
I got to add up all the watts I have going to it, then break out the other CW to continue.

When I got my transformers I did not get a manual, I questioned the seller as it said it is programmable I asked how to program it. It said that the accessory output was programmable.
I guess he didn't know as I never got a answer. That is why I am powering all the lights off the throttle. I can turn them down real low or turn them up.
As I have the ZW for the trains to run I am going to keep mine hooked up like that. I like the way you can control the brightness from the throttle side. 



Since I hooked it up I found the manual for the CW-80 maybe someone else can use this. Page 9 tells you how to program the accessory output.
http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-4198-251.pdf


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Here is the thread on taking the CW-80 apart,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8479


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Savian1973 said:


> Sorry Gunnrunner. I don't know much about electricity so what you just said is like Egyptian to me. No offense pictures sometimes are a thousand words lol.


Even with a picture it looks like Egyptian, don't feel bad there are others along side of you.
Some just won't admit to it.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Just to give you guys another update. After a good cleaning I got the engine running. It is awesome. The only problem I am having now is constant clicking consistent with the speed if the wheels.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Savian1973 said:


> Just to give you guys another update. After a good cleaning I got the engine running. It is awesome. The only problem I am having now is constant clicking consistent with the speed if the wheels.


Look for a loose running rod on the wheels.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That only has one rod huh?

Can you do a video of the clicking with the sound?
How is the smoker hooked up on those? Does it have a push rod?
Are you sure everything is put back together right?

I don't have one of those.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Everything is back together correctly and runs well. Just the clicking noise from the wheels. I did have to remove the smoke unit so all looks to be fine. I will get a video this evening and try to post it if I can. If not I will email it to ya.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

The rod nuts all seem to be tight. I was wondering if the rod itself should have so much play and be extremely loose?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Savian1973 said:


> The rod nuts all seem to be tight. I was wondering if the rod itself should have so much play and be extremely loose?


For the 682 loco my service manual says to look at the 671 Loco.
Here is the 671 from Olsen's, do you have the spacer that is shown in the picture?
Part number 671- 239?



http://olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc671p2.pdf


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

View attachment 32757


Hopefully you can see this pic of the rod. Also I noticed right away from the parts diagram is that my engine does not have the front truck spring or cup washer on the front truck stud. Not sure if that would have any bearing on the clicking issue?


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Hopefully these help a little. I will still take a video once I get home and attach it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I guess the spring for the smoke unit is all right?
That does go up and down according to speed.

If your supposed to have the front truck spring and cup washer I would say that that would only effect the wheels from jumping off the track?

Maybe a spacer is worn out?

Remember that the diagram I posted is for a 671. That is what my service manual said to see.
I am assuming that the 682 is the same.
I don't have one, let this sit till others log on.

Do the video with sound if you can.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You should have showed a picture of the other side with the rod too.
The problem might be on the other side.

Does yours have the spacer?
Is there a spacer for each rod screw?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The side rods on the turbines and the 726/736 locos have a lot of play in them. This is normal and does not make any noise. Did you run the loco with the shell off? The most likely candidate for making a clicking noise is the smoker. Did you block the smoker lever up so it doesn't move and then run the loco to see if the click disappears?


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I will do that this afternoon when I get home. These were quick pics.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I got my 671 I'm my hand, and the wheels should turn easily if you rock them back and forth you will get a clicking from the play in the side rod. Mine is missing the spring too.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I wonder if the from spring and cup are suppose to be missing? Also I will try blocking the smoke rod to see if it stops the noise.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

What about the worm shaft? If that was loose could it be coming from there? Mine is missing the spring also, and one guide screw, I have no clicking when it runs.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I removed the worm gear and cleaned that and the gear To the shaft. I placed it back in with synthetic grease and tightened it down. I will remove the shell this afternoon and take a video to see what it is.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Alright guys. I found that the problem is the smoker rod pumping in the up and down motion as most have you had thought. I also placed a rolled up piece of paper towel to hold the rod up and ran it. It was silent. So my question is how do I fix it from making the noise at the smoke unit?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I wonder what side is making the click?

Maybe try wrapping a small piece of electrical tape on the side that is clicking?
Can't hurt to try.

I don't have one but I wonder if bending it slightly somehow would help?


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Merry Christmas to all of you and your families.

When you guys have a chance I did find out the noise is coming from the smoke unit rod. Any way to solve the issue?

Thanks


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The rod should move up and down without sticking. If it sticks somewhere, it may click when it drops. Make sure it moves up and down freely. You might lube the pivot and the cam on the front axle.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

The spring, part #2026-44, was not part of the smokers I've seen. It wasn't present in any of my steamers. Lionel added it later for just that reason. The pictures from the pages GRJ linked didn't list the part # in the exploded view. I can tell you from experience it does make a difference. Added it to my 2025 and 2026, the associated noise diminished appreciably in both. You could likely use a very light spring in it's place.

Carl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well the electric tape would have quieted it down some.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Any pics of how to quiet down the smoke unit rod noise? I hear electrical tape but what do I apply that to?


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Sorry guys. I wasn't able to upload the video of the noise.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Savian1973 said:


> Any pics of how to quiet down the smoke unit rod noise? I hear electrical tape but what do I apply that to?


Did you read what was suggested?
I was thinking that a small piece of electrical tape where the rod is tapping would quiet it some. It is not a fix.
Then I thought maybe the rod was bent somehow.
Like I said I can't look at one because I don't have one to look at..

They told you that a spring is needed, and the Lionel added it to other locomotives that had the same smoke unit. They found out in later years that they should have put a spring in there.

Click this link and look at the spring number 2026-44. This is what they added and what you need. http://olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/locsua4.pdf

Do you have any kind of old springs laying around. Maybe from an old pen?
I save stuff like that from old toys that get destroyed before I toss them.

So....in a nutshell they told you to add the spring to quiet it down as the sticking is what is causing it to make the noise. Someone told you to lube the assembly too did you try that?


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

I will look I to the spring idea. But I was aware that you could live the smoke unit or rod assembly. I was a bit hesitate since I don't want to mess anything up. So lubing the rod and the pump assembly is safe to do? I also have been considering the electrical tape as well. I like to hear and understand different ideas. That is all.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Can't hurt to try. That is what servoguy suggested, and he has been fooling with Lionel's since the late 1800's. 
Servoguy said, You might lube the pivot and the cam on the front axle.
Kiwkster brought up the missing spring part. That is what it really needs in there.

I would think that if the rod was sticking like that it will effect the smoke units output of smoke too.
The rod has to move freely for it to pump.

If it even would help any. 
The tape will just quiet it down some from clicking, not a fix at all.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Henning's Trains has the spring for inside the cylinder in stock if you need one.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks. I will order one. I tried widening a spring from a pen. However it didn't work well and it seems it's the rod tapping down on the frame which is making the noise. I may glue a small piece of rubber I. The well to absorb the rod clinking sound.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The spring in question is a conical spring and has a very light force. The small end does on the top of the piston, and the big end goes up in the top of the smoke cylinder. It really does provide a better return for the smoke cam.

Of course, one would question why Lionel saw fit to make a turbine powered locomotive have puffing smoke, but that's another discussion!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think I see in your picture under it where it is tapping, just try a piece of tape there?

Though like I said if it is sticking I would think that would effect the smoke outlet too.


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## Savian1973 (Jul 24, 2011)

Cool. I am going to order the spring. In the mean time I took a piece of rubber roofing and used glue and placed it in the rod well. It has almost removed the sound. I am sure once I get the spring it will remedy the rest. Also I could have used a piece of window door insulation with double sided tape. I bet that would have really dampened the sound. I will post my finally results once I get the spring. 

Merry Christmas to you all and thanks.


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