# annoying .problem with 4-6-2 (at my wits end!)



## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Hey Guys!

I have a little 4-6-2 that is one of my favorite engines. Unfortunately, it's started randomly getting stuck and locking up. Instead of me trying to go into details in text, I've posted a video of it acting a fool here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHjxx0Z0nCE&feature=youtu.be

It's really getting frustrating because I love the engine, and it runs great. It just has this one issue that is starting to take the fun out of this train.

Hoping you bright fellows have some tips or suggestions getting the little girl back on the rails


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

That's really weird. Nice train too. My guess? It's a gearing or oiling problem. It could be the oil is congealed or there's not enough. Unfortunately, cleaning it and not oiling it would solve it congealing, but wouldn't help if it doesn't have enough oil. On the flip side, oiling it would solve there being not enough oil, but if you've got congealed oil it will make the problem worse. I don't think congealing happens as much in HO, it's really a Z scale thing but it could probably still happen in HO. What brand is it, and how old is it? If it's a gearing problem? Something could be causing friction in the gears, or they may be worn (Although worn gears would probably just make it grind and have less traction so it probably isn't worn.)


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi, Blue Comet

Crazy weird right? Glad to know I'm not the only one stumped

It's an IHC semi-streamlined. I'm really not sure on age, but it definitely doesn't sound or run all that old. But your guess is as good as mine.

I don't think it's so much an oil problem as it's a friction problem with that front right drive wheel. That wheel almost seems to be rubbing the inside when it gets stuck, but is still very free flowing when not stuck... beats me


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

When it gets stuck, are the drivers in the same exact position each time? This is easy to check on a steamer = by looking at the clock position of the screw that holds the connecting rods to the driver wheel (not sure if part names are exactly correct).

I am no expert on this stuff, but that piece of info might help more knowledgeable people diagnose the potential problem.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Another thought. Many steamers have drive wheels with some lateral play in them -- to help them negotiate tight curves. Does the drive wheel that you wiggle to release the problem have some lateral play in it? If so, when it locks up, look at where the wheel is (i.e. all the way towards the right side, all the way to the left side, or near the center). And this this pattern repeatable with every lock-up.

If the wheel is consistently locking up when it is displaced to one side, this might indicate that the gear on the axil might be sliding almost off the edge of the motor gear that is driving it -- which would be an alignment problem -- or worn gears.


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

hmm interesting, I'm not sure about the driver position, but there might definitely be something to an alignment problem. Trying to picture things now, I think I may remember the axle in question being slightly misaligned when locked; I can't say for sure though.

I'll pay close attention to all these possible issues when I go over to the train shed later this afternoon.

Thank you all very much for your suggestions so far, keep'em coming! :thumbsup:


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

Take off the shell and watch it while running. Might be a gear problem at the motor shaft. Hope this helps.


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Patrick1544 said:


> Take off the shell and watch it while running. Might be a gear problem at the motor shaft. Hope this helps.


Okay. What would be a few tell tell signs of a gear problem to look for once un-shelled?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

IHC went out of business 4 or 5 years ago, so it's not that new, and if it hasn't been run in that time, it could be gunked up. FWIW, in my opinion, when troubleshooting a loco or track problem, "I don't think..." is usually a prelude to frustration. DON'T think. Test. Eliminate possibilities one at a time until you find out what's wrong.

The gear should rotate smoothly, without excessive wobble, and not get stuck at one spot.

I would also check the tie rods. I had an IHC Prairie on which the tie rod got a little bent (probably by my fat fingers), which made it jam against the plastic guide when the wheel passed the 6 o'clock position.


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

Could even be a bad bearing on one of the drive axle journals. After it gets warm, it expands and binds up the drive axle. Best fix is by close observation.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

How are the bushings in your motor? I had this same thing occur on an Rounhouse Atlantic. The locomotive would jam randomly just like yours. What I found was that there were to much play in the shaft from the motor. This caused the worm gear to move to far forward and out of alignment. Sadly in my case the motor is shot and I cannot find a replacement to fit properly.


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks for all the great suggestions, guys. I really appreciate it!

Well this is actually a little crazy but... When I went over to the train building today, determined to get to the bottom of my stuck train. To my annoyance though, I couldn't get the engine stuck again. after weeks and weeks of dealing with it locking up only to have it run like silk when I actually need it to act up is almost comical. I ran it about 20 or 30 times around my little oval with no issue; I've done nothing to it so I know it's not fixed... 

I'm going to see if I can't make a tad more progress tomorrow but I really feel like once it gets stuck again I can have a pretty good go at finding out what's causing the problem.

Wish me luck!


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Steam engine piston rod assemblies bend easily. The get positioned such that they periodically bind up. It does not happen with every revolution, or even every cycle through the assembly. 
The more complicated the system, 8 drive wheels rather than 4, the more likely it will bind. I have had some success with this by loosening the motor so the wheel assembly will rotate easily. Then push it until it binds up again. Watch it carefully. Try too look at both sides. It is likely the bind is only on one side. This observation should identify where the bind is occurring and also how much a part has to be bent to remove the potential bind. 
The gear that the motor drives is on one of the driver wheel sets. The other drivers get their power from the geared wheel through the rods. These wheel connections are upstream and down stream of the bind location. Depending the direction of the movement when the bind occurred will dictate which of the wheels are locked with the bind and which are free of the bind. Moving the free wheels will clear the bind, as you observed in the video. 
With the proper tuning, the engine will run smoothly, free of binds.
Good luck,
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Okay guys. So when I went over to the trains today the engine made it around the oval only twice before it locked up.

inspecting it while locked up, I can see a few things that might be causing the problem. Firstly, the wheels are definitely not locking up in the same place every time. sometimes it locks at 3:00, sometimes 8, and sometimes at 5. Really all over the place.

However, when looking closer at the one drive wheel that gets stuck, I can see the whole axle is pushed to one side and is ever so slightly slanted.


The first picture here is of the wheel stuck. You can see how the top axle is pushed to one side and looks different than the other axle. The second picture is of the wheels un-stuck and uniform.


Picture 1










Picture 2













The third picture is a horizontal view where you can make out a little of the slant in the axle. And then the fourth picture is with the wheel un-stuck and free

Picture 3









Picture 4










So I'm not positive what to make of this, but it definitely looks like there's some sort of alignment/spacing issue. If that is what's causing the locking, is the some kind of alignment fix? Or is it more complicated than that?...


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## dave2744 (Dec 18, 2014)

You might want to remove the gear cover plate and closely inspect all gears for a crack between gear teeth. At higher rpms the motor inertia will overcome the "bind" created by the crack ( tooth to tooth spacing has changed ), but at slower speeds, this improper meshing of the gears will cause a bind that can stop the motor in it's tracks ( no pun intended). Good luck, nice locomotive. Dave


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Good idea. I'll try that out when I go back over to the train building.

Thanks Dave!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Anyone notice the loud Clicking sound?

Is that the track or the locomotive?
You can hear it clearly when it hits the trestle the first time around, it also made it before that when it first started out.


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

big ed said:


> Anyone notice the loud Clicking sound?
> 
> Is that the track or the locomotive?
> You can hear it clearly when it hits the trestle the first time around, it also made it before that when it first started out.


Hmm, Now that you mention it I'm hearing those clicks too. I don't think it's the loco but instead maybe just a few imperfections with my novice track laying skills. I'll definitely keep an ear out to see where it's coming from while I'm running it. Thank you for your observation!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Axle bent? 
That wheel doesn't look like it is sitting right?










Edit, I just reread the thread, I guess you see that?


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

big ed said:


> Axle bent?
> That wheel doesn't look like it is sitting right?
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly! It only slants like that when that front axle gets stuck. When I manually get it unstuck though it goes straight like in the second picture.

Maybe an alignment issue?


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

big ed said:


> Axle bent?
> That wheel doesn't look like it is sitting right?
> 
> View attachment 40579
> ...


Hard to tell from the photo but does that have a plastic rim with a metal wheel? Could the wheel be slipping of the rim. Another thing to check is if the bushing on that axle is shot.


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## Rusty (Jun 23, 2011)

I am seeing the main/connecting rods are not same position. That's what it causing struck. They need to be in same position on main/connecting rods on both sides.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Does it wobble when running? When it locks there is a fair amount of force involved and it causes the wheel to can't. 
You have found the Side that locks. What is normally the problem is an interference in the rod mechanism on the side that locks. If you can get it to lock and then unlock it a few times. You should be able to see the interference when locked and how it clears. 
When you have determined the pieces that are locking, look at the same pieces on the other side. The should be exact mirror images. I'm sure you will find one is bent or deformed in some manner. The cure is to carefully shape the problem piece to be like the other side. A couple of needle nose pliers will help you do it. 

The engine is an RSO model made for IHC by Menho. They are generally good runners and fairly robust. If you can get this interference figured out, you will be happy with it.
Larry
www.lxlocomotives.com


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks again guys for all your help and support! There have been some really great ideas and suggestions said, so hopefully I can get my little friend back in shape soon.

I've now taken the engine back home and am taking it apart a bit to see if I notice anything bent or broken inside... But I've misplaced my screwdriver at the moment, so things are going slowly


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## dave2744 (Dec 18, 2014)

I had a N scale Decapod, mfgr TRIX. It had very large slots for the wheel axles to ride in. Sometimes one axle would be deflected slightly out of normal alignment, and the end result was a bind, just like you would get if the drivers were not "quartered" properly. Yes, it would be random. These larger than axle size slots also let the axles "drift" forward or backward in relation to the other axles, again creating intermittent binds. Does the binding happen more in on direction vs. the other? I know this is tedious work, very elusive to find source. Again, best of luck, Dave

P.S. Just noticed the gear cover plate data, is that engine made in Slovonia? Who is the manufacturer?


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## TravisTheLionHeart (Apr 3, 2013)

Alright guys, so after taking the engine apart a little, I noticed one of the rods that moves the front axel was slightly bent.












I went ahead and spent a few minutes with a pair of needle nose pliers and got it all straightened out again. I'll test it later today, but I'm optimistic that was the problem it was having.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Just watch your fat fingers. As I posted earlier, that's how I screwed mine up.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Based on the pic, the head of the bolt on the top appears to be high. It looks like it could interfere with the rods during the rotation. I would verify that the bolt is all the way in. There is a small part that rotates around this bolt. Often it gets deformed. Make sure it looks like the other side and it is not contributing to the bind.
Larry


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