# Need Help Fixing Old Locomotive



## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

I have what I believe is a Tyco Mikado Pennsylvania 2-8-2 and Tender. I got it used via an ebay odd lot sale of misc HO model railroad parts. I've just gotten back into model railroading after many, many years away from it so I feel like a newbie again. I have disassembled and cleaned and lubed it to the point that it runs like a champ on the work bench. However, when on my layout it starts and stops haltingly every few feet. Other engines run fine on my layout. It's driving me buggy as it seems to be ok on the bench. One thing I noticed is the connection to the motor from the engine wheels is only through the third wheel from the front on the left side of the locomotive. Is that normal ? I'm thinking that possibly due to wheel wear that third wheel is not making consistent contact with the track. Generic picture (not my unit) of engine below. Thanks in advance for any help.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Clean your track. Especially for a loco without all wheel pickup, dirty track could be causing that problem. Different locos react to dirt differently. You may have other issues, but I would clean the track before doing anything else.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If all else fails, you could add all wheel power pickup
on the tender trucks. A pair of wire to the loco may
bring it back to life.

Don


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

I think there may be a short that occurs when the locomotive is on the track. Not sure how yet. I was working with another engine and attempted to run it on the same section of track where the problem engine was sitting. Could not figure out why the second engine would not run as it was nearly new and had been working fine. That's when I noticed the first engine sitting on the same section of track. As I lifted it off the track the second engine started running just fine. Now, to figure out where the short is.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Get a 9v battery and hold it against the driver pairs, you'll soon see which are picking up current, if indeed that is your problem. If it isn't it must be the track as suggested.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Are all the insulated drivers on the same side. the Mantua/TYCO engines had rim insulated drivers so you would need to look for the thin layer of insulation just under the rim of the driver, it is white on my engines. If they are not all on the same side, (they should be on the opposite side as the brass wheels on the tender), you will need to disassemble the chassis and reinstall the drivers with all the insulation on the same side. If the engine runs in the wrong direction, (compared to your other engines), you could just reverse all the pickup wheels on the engine and tender.


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

thedoc said:


> Are all the insulated drivers on the same side. the Mantua/TYCO engines had rim insulated drivers so you would need to look for the thin layer of insulation just under the rim of the driver, it is white on my engines. If they are not all on the same side, (they should be on the opposite side as the brass wheels on the tender), you will need to disassemble the chassis and reinstall the drivers with all the insulation on the same side. If the engine runs in the wrong direction, (compared to your other engines), you could just reverse all the pickup wheels on the engine and tender.


You hit the nail on the head. I did a bunch of impedance checks this last go round and discovered just what you describe. When I previously disassembled the engine for cleaning and lube I accidentally flipped one the four wheel sets or drivers as you say. There must be just enough of a difference in wheel diameters that sometimes the flipped wheel would not be in contact with the track and it would run. When it did contact the track it would cause the short and stop. I'm so happy I almost don't mind the hours it will take me to completely reassemble everything. Thank you ! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

Joy at last. Back to operational. Took some liberties with additional lighting. Cow catchers still needs some repairs. Any suggestions on how to improve low speed performance ? Seems to take a big jolt of power to get it moving. Armature contacts have been cleaned.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

It appears that you have the small motor with the worm mounted directly on the motor shaft. This makes it a bit more difficult to convert to another motor. I believe Mellor made a gearbox to mount the worm separately from the motor and then you can replace the original motor with a can motor. the company is now out of business but some of the parts still show up at swap meets or on the internet. You could also get one of the really old Mantua gearboxes that mount onto the frame holding the worm in place, and connect to the motor with a flexible shaft. Any older motor is going to use a lot of amperage to get going, but the newer motors are much better. I had a Mantua 2-6-6-2 from the 80's, that I built from a kit and was going to re-motor it after I had it all built up, but when I ran it with the original motor I decided that I couldn't really improve it much, so I left it go. I had fitted the Mantua Mikado boiler and was re-detailing it to look like the WM engine. The newer Mantua motors have a green epoxy coated armature and are square on the brush end, rather than tapered, which is a good way to tell them apart from the older motors. You will have to mount the motor farther back on the frame. the old motors stuck back into the cab, but not out of it.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

TomFromMo said:


> Joy at last. Back to operational. Took some liberties with additional lighting. *Cow catchers still needs some repairs.* Any suggestions on how to improve low speed performance ? Seems to take a big jolt of power to get it moving. Armature contacts have been cleaned.


There are companies that sell replacement pilots for that engine in metal that are just like the originals.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

if you can manage to fit a brush less motor for small rc cars, that would probably improve it. make it 20x faster too haha


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

If it comes down to it, NWSL sells bushings that will fit a 2 mm shaft and increase it to 3/32 inch. If you are using a motor that has a 2.4 mm shaft, no bushings will be necessary.


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

Special thanks to thedoc and santafealltheway for their help. I've got a bit of a learning curve to climb before I can implement your suggestions. I added an extra power connection to the far end of my layout and that helped a bit with lower speed operation.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

TomFromMo said:


> Special thanks to thedoc and santafealltheway for their help. I've got a bit of a learning curve to climb before I can implement your suggestions. I added an extra power connection to the far end of my layout and that helped a bit with lower speed operation.


Getting the electricity to all points of your track is most important. My one loop, so far, is about 3 HO scale miles and I have 4 connections equally spaced around the loop. I'm running 14-3 house wire to the drops and then the usual 18 gauge wire to the track. I haven't noticed any slowing of the trains as it goes around the loop, I also don't have any insulated joints, yet.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

I added wipers to the trucks for added pickup to all of my Mantua locos. Apparently, the zinc sideframes, steel axles and brass wheels made for a bad combination sometimes, and can arc and get quite hot. for two axle trucks I simple salvaged them from old search light cars. For three axles trucks, I made them with shim brass and a soldering terminal bent to fit...





































While not perfect, it certainly has greatly improved performance without high end remotor kits...


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

shaygetz said:


> I added wipers to the trucks for added pickup to all of my Mantua locos. Apparently, the zinc sideframes, steel axles and brass wheels made for a bad combination sometimes, and can arc and get quite hot. for two axle trucks I simple salvaged them from old search light cars. For three axles trucks, I made them with shim brass and a soldering terminal bent to fit...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like this idea. What is the thickness of the copper for the pickups ?


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

santafealltheway said:


> if you can manage to fit a brush less motor for small rc cars, that would probably improve it. make it 20x faster too haha


At 20x speed I might need to add a spoiler on the back !


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

And a drag chute and catch net. Yahoo


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

TomFromMo said:


> I like this idea. What is the thickness of the copper for the pickups ?


I believe .010", though I can't tell...about the same thickness as a soda can...


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

shaygetz said:


> I believe .010", though I can't tell...about the same thickness as a soda can...


You need to be careful what kind of metal you use for this, some kind of spring copper alloy is best, like phosphor bronze works well, and you need to be careful when soldering as the heat will anneal the metal and make it soft. Copper alloys do not harden by heating and quenching, heat will only anneal the metal and make it soft. Copper alloys 'work harden' so you need to work them to make them hard, brass and bronze are both copper alloys.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

You also need to be careful how much pressure the wipers push against the wheels. The wipers will act like brakes and too much pressure will make the wheels too hard to turn. Also you need to apply enough pressure to maintain contact and keep the area clean. I remember reading that electrical engineers would cringe when someone recommended to lighten the pressure of the brushes on a motor. The brushes were set with enough pressure to keep the commutator clean and reducing the pressure would make the motor run easier, but the commutator could start to get dirty and the motor could eventually stop working. So unless you are willing to clean the commutator regularly, it's best to just leave the brush pressure as it is.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Interesting, this is a Mantua engine. Tyco sold them when they were first spun off. They tend to be heavy runners, but usually run quite well. The trick is to make sure the tense is getting the electrical connection. I agree with thedoc, wipers are not a preferred solution. Easily can cause more issues that the original problem. Back in the day, these tenders had small springs between the truck and the body. These springs were made of conductive material and would ensure the contact was made. The problem is oxidation in wet environments. The wipers have this problem as well. I have also found a conductive material washer between the truck and the tender bottom will also help here. This extra thickness will flex the draw bar between the engine and tender ever so slightly. Just enough to enhance the contact between the wheel and track and the truck and the frame. Not perfect, but it does not pick up fuzz or loose its flex due to cyclic fatigue.

This motor will run much better with some rare earth magnets. Much better flux and thus higher torque and lower current per unit of voltage potential.

Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

ggnlars said:


> Interesting, this is a Mantua engine. Tyco sold them when they were first spun off. They tend to be heavy runners, but usually run quite well. The trick is to make sure the tense is getting the electrical connection. I agree with thedoc, wipers are not a preferred solution. Easily can cause more issues that the original problem. Back in the day, these tenders had small springs between the truck and the body. These springs were made of conductive material and would ensure the contact was made. The problem is oxidation in wet environments. The wipers have this problem as well. I have also found a conductive material washer between the truck and the tender bottom will also help here. This extra thickness will flex the draw bar between the engine and tender ever so slightly. Just enough to enhance the contact between the wheel and track and the truck and the frame. Not perfect, but it does not pick up fuzz or loose its flex due to cyclic fatigue.
> 
> This motor will run much better with some rare earth magnets. Much better flux and thus higher torque and lower current per unit of voltage potential.
> 
> ...


Yes - mine has a washer which might be brass between the truck and the tender bottom. I'll have to see if I can find a spring that will fit in the space.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Have you thought about conductive grease or something along those lines???


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

ggnlars said:


> Interesting, this is a Mantua engine. Tyco sold them when they were first spun off. They tend to be heavy runners, but usually run quite well. The trick is to make sure the tense is getting the electrical connection. I agree with thedoc, wipers are not a preferred solution. Easily can cause more issues that the original problem. Back in the day, these tenders had small springs between the truck and the body. These springs were made of conductive material and would ensure the contact was made. The problem is oxidation in wet environments. The wipers have this problem as well. I have also found a conductive material washer between the truck and the tender bottom will also help here. This extra thickness will flex the draw bar between the engine and tender ever so slightly. Just enough to enhance the contact between the wheel and track and the truck and the frame. Not perfect, but it does not pick up fuzz or loose its flex due to cyclic fatigue.
> 
> This motor will run much better with some rare earth magnets. Much better flux and thus higher torque and lower current per unit of voltage potential.
> 
> ...


Rare earth magnets ? Something like this ? https://www.amazon.com/CMS-Magnetics%C2%AE-Strong-Neodymium-Magnet/dp/B0181LX5Q0/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1471467890&sr=1-1 Would I just cut down this magnet to fit in the space of the existing magnet ? Does it half to be the exact same dimensions as the existing ? New territory for me here.


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

jlc41 said:


> Have you thought about conductive grease or something along those lines???


Might be worth a try. This stuff is a bit pricey. Maybe I'll try a little graphite first.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You could also check the proto87 site that has magnets for old motors
http://www.proto87.com/Motor_upgrades.html


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

ggnlars said:


> This motor will run much better with some rare earth magnets. Much better flux and thus higher torque and lower current per unit of voltage potential.
> 
> Larry
> www.llxlocomotives.com


Just ordered some new magnets from MicroMark - 1/2 x 1/4 x 1/8. Looks like I will just stack 4 to fit the existing space. Does it matter which pole is up when installed ? Should I use a little adhesive between the individual magnets ?


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

TomFromMo said:


> Just ordered some new magnets from MicroMark - 1/2 x 1/4 x 1/8. Looks like I will just stack 4 to fit the existing space. Does it matter which pole is up when installed ? Should I use a little adhesive between the individual magnets ?


I think the magnets will stick together by themselves, especially when you clamp them in place. 

Yes it matters which way the polarity is, if you get the magnets in the wrong way the engine will run backwards. But I believe that if you are using DCC that can be adjusted with the decoder, otherwise you need to get the magnets in correctly, or end up changing everything else.


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

thedoc said:


> I think the magnets will stick together by themselves, especially when you clamp them in place.
> 
> Yes it matters which way the polarity is, if you get the magnets in the wrong way the engine will run backwards. But I believe that if you are using DCC that can be adjusted with the decoder, otherwise you need to get the magnets in correctly, or end up changing everything else.


Got my new magnets yesterday and wow are they ever powerful. It's a challenge using a screwdriver anywhere near them. As you said, the engine will run in reverse if the magnets are installed in reverse. Also, as discovered quite by accident, if the magnets are installed 90 degrees out the engine won't run at all ! D'oh ! Took me a while to figure out what I had done wrong. Low speed performance is now much improved. High speed is about the same. Since I had a bunch of magnets left over I started replacing the magnet in a couple of Mantua Tyco Diesel Locomotives. These motors are a bit different that in the steam engine but the magnet is the same size. Again, low speed performance is improved but they behave like power is occasionally dropping out as it goes around the layout. It's a bit of a herky jerky ride. Other locomotives run smoothly. I'll have to look more closely at all electrical connections and wheel contact.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Keep a close watch on the heat of the motor, you don't usually get something for nothing, and the motor running hot might be one of the effects of a stronger magnet. Of course stronger magnets might allow the motor to run cooler, it's worth looking at.


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## TomFromMo (Aug 9, 2016)

thedoc said:


> Keep a close watch on the heat of the motor, you don't usually get something for nothing, and the motor running hot might be one of the effects of a stronger magnet. Of course stronger magnets might allow the motor to run cooler, it's worth looking at.


You might be on to something regarding temp. I took a break for a couple of hours then returned. The engine with the new magnets were running much smoother. I timed my 2-8-2 at a leisurely 30 mph. Here's a brief video. Mantua 2-8-2 with updated magnets.


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