# Layout planning?



## shaker281

I want to migrate my S scale layout to a table, either self built or Mianne. I am planning to go with Gilbert track at this point. With a minimum diameter of 40" and a desire to have switches at both ends with a "siding", like the one on the right in the pic, I am thinking that I need at least 5' width. I am thinking a 5'x10' layout would fit my available space. Other than the fact that I will not be able to use standard 4x8 sheets of surface material, am I missing anything else? 

Thoughts? Recommendations? Ideas? I think I want to avoid reverse loops, but open to all suggestions. 

I am wondering if it would it make everything easier if I stuck with a 4' width and kept everything in the inside areas? I actually have the space to go 6' wide too. Is wider better? I'd like to stay at 10' length. 

If I went with 5' width, the track on the left side would be flipped to the inside. Transformer(s) and controls would get moved to a shelf below/beside the tabletop.


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## mopac

Nice floor layout. 5 ft would be better. Will the table be against a wall? Or in center of room? What I am getting at is you have to be able to clean track and clean up wrecks. I don't think you can reach 4 or 5
feet.


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## shaker281

mopac said:


> Nice floor layout. 5 ft would be better. Will the table be against a wall? Or in center of room? What I am getting at is you have to be able to clean track and clean up wrecks. I don't think you can reach 4 or 5
> feet.


Thank you. On the right is nearly 9' of Santa Fe Chief Freight! All that visible wire is driving me nuts. I haven't even connected the remote switch controllers for that reason. 

Good points. Only one (short) end against a wall, so easy access all around, meaning 6' is even possible. I feel that you are right, due to the 40" curves, wider might be better. Never having done this before, I seek the wisdom of all the guys on here who have been there and done that! 

Given that I have the space, does it just make sense to go to 6' when you consider material sizing and layout flexibility? With plenty of perimeter I might be able to skip having edge protection? Even put decor/accessories on the outside of track. 

Also, going wider might allow me to run two complete trains simultaneously without any complications. 

All opinions are welcome.


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## mopac

I can tell you planning on my layout is 6 ft. Hoping to have 4 seperate loops. Breaks those curves up some. They will need some straight track half way through the curve.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

Very nice layout! :thumbsup: I have a 5'x9' layout. It is on a ping pong table. I suppose that it is OK but I would like to have a long siding, like yours, for accessories. If I were to do it again, it would be wider and maybe longer.


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## AmFlyer

When you plan layouts using Gilbert track the widths and lengths move in 10" increments. the diameter of a circle of Gilbert track is 40" to the outside edge of the ties. However, always add 2" to the table width, especially if you use any roadbed. The optimum widths are then 42", 52", 62", 72" etc. It can also work better when designing the track plan if you place the straight leg of turnouts between two curves rather than placing them all where a straight track was.
If you have room for a 6'x10' layout consider leaving the center 2' open. Use two 2'x6' end pieces and two 2'x4' side pieces. This gives a 6'x10' layout with a 2'x4' open center. Building fronts or shallow mountains can hide the opening if desired. Or a really neat bridge could span it.
For reverse loops where there is one there has to be two. At 6'x10' there is really not enough space for reverse loops unless you go multi level and stack them. Except in large Legacy controlled layouts they are just a PITA. I built many (over 30 in 45 years) fun to operate layouts the size of yours without reverse loops and never missed them.
I have 4 reverse loops on my permanent semi scale layout but it has 4 levels of track and is 17'x21' and is all Legacy and LCS operation.


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## shaker281

Thank you guys! I needed a reality check and now I have decided that 6' is the way I will go. You guys always help a lot.

AmFlyer, what you are saying about reverse loops is very helpful. I will take it all into consideration.

Certain that I will be changing the track layout after some research (need more track and switches), but knowing my maximum dimensions will allow me to start planning benchwork.


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## mopac

I am planning my layout as Tom is saying. As far as leaving 2ft open in the middle. All
my sections will be 2ft wide.

No reverse loops for me. They take up a lot of room.


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## shaker281

mopac said:


> I am planning my layout as Tom is saying. As far as leaving 2ft open in the middle. All
> my sections will be 2ft wide.
> 
> No reverse loops for me. They take up a lot of room.


Is the two feet open in the middle mainly for access? Or aesthetics, like a design element? It is something I had not given that much thought. I do like the idea, though one would lose a bit of real estate, a 2'x4' section in my case.


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## AmFlyer

As layouts get bigger access is challenging. At 6'x10' it is convenient but not necessary since your layout will be accessible from 3 sides. When I build layouts this size I do not leave the center open for two reasons. First I have more Snow Village buildings than I can use so I am always looking for space on the layout for them. Second my layouts are usually just 28" off the floor so it is easy to walk on them if access is necessary. I offered it as a design/construction alternative. The most important is the track plan and operating accessory locations. Do that prior to finalizing the layout structure.


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## shaker281

Thank you Tom, I definitely need to look at track layout options. I am getting excited now that I have decide to move to a permanent installation.


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## AmFlyer

I built a layout with an open center but the sides were 3' wide and it was 8'x14'. Way too big w/o a center access. The open center was 2'x8'.


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## cramden

shaker281 said:


> Thank you guys! I needed a reality check and now I have decided that 6' is the way I will go. You guys always help a lot.
> 
> AmFlyer, what you are saying about reverse loops is very helpful. I will take it all into consideration.
> 
> Certain that I will be changing the track layout after some research (need more track and switches), but knowing my maximum dimensions will allow me to start planning benchwork.


I ordered a 6'x8' kit from Mianne. Having neither a basement or a garage, and new carpet throughout the house, Mianne was a no brainer for me .No mess with cutting and such, just take it out of the cartons and put it together. I have a layout that's 8' long, but added 6" to the 6 ft. side for a 3" overhang on each of those sides. It keeps the track off of the edge if you use 3 and a half straights on the shorter sides of an oval. I wish I could have had 9 or 10' but don't have the room. I think 6x10 will give you lots of options. Don't forget to look in the instruction manuals or catalogues for layout suggestions. http://www.myflyertrains.org/AF_Catalogs/Gilbert Catalogs.htm


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## AFGP9

Shaker281 allow me to offer my 2 cents worth. My layout is 15' x 20' overall. It is around the walls with a hinged lift up bridge I built my self so I can walk into my layout. I have 7' x 16' of open space in the middle. I have 2, 1 x 10 boards for shelving underneath the whole length on both sides. I made my own doors which are hinged on the legs making each door about 3' feet long since my legs are 2 x 6's. The legs are set in from the edge 18". Said another way, I have an 18" over hang with a 1" X 4" facing board on the ends of the 2" X 4" cross boards for a finished look. You just have to remember to cut your cross boards a little short so the facing board is under the plywood and the end result looks smooth. 

I built my layout in 4 x 8 foot sections, bolted together with 1/2" plywood as a base with 2" construction grade foam glued to the plywood. I made my layout with a 4' wide top because I had designed lots of mountains to be on it which come out from 3 walls. That puts most of the track out where I can reach it. I got plenty of space to do about anything I want. The only caveat is being able to reach things. I use about 3' to reach. Also, I like wide curves so I have plenty of room for that using the longer curved K-Line track and the 4' wide top and the wide ends that creates. The rest is good old American Flyer tack. 
I almost forgot. Where the plywood and foam meet on top of the face board, I used strips of old wall paneling painted flat black for a nice finished look with white paneling cap strips from Menard's on the top edge of the paneling strips. 
Fastening the track to the foam is no big deal. As I have described here before, I have added extra ties to the track and used ballast glued in place with Elmer's white glue water down so it can flow. Spray a dish soap and water mixture to help the watered down glue flow. It will dry solid if done correctly and the track will never move. The glue will not show when dry.

Even if you don't have 15' of room width as I have, you could still get the same results for broad curves using the 6' space you have with careful planning and K-Line curves or add short sections of custom cut AF straight track into your curves to broaden them like I used to do until I discovered K-Line.

One last comment. You mentioned wiring. If you decide to build something similar to what I have described, drill holes in your cross boards to run wiring through. Even if you don't know where you are going to put things, those holes will come in handy no matter what. By drilling these holes, your wires won't be hanging down under your cross boards then back up to the plywood. Much neater wiring.


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## shaker281

cramden said:


> I ordered a 6'x8' kit from Mianne. Having neither a basement or a garage, and new carpet throughout the house, Mianne was a no brainer for me .No mess with cutting and such, just take it out of the cartons and put it together. I have a layout that's 8' long, but added 6" to the 6 ft. side for a 3" overhang on each of those sides. It keeps the track off of the edge if you use 3 and a half straights on the shorter sides of an oval. I wish I could have had 9 or 10' but don't have the room. I think 6x10 will give you lots of options. Don't forget to look in the instruction manuals or catalogues for layout suggestions. http://www.myflyertrains.org/AF_Catalogs/Gilbert Catalogs.htm


Great info. I have decided to go with Mianne for a similar reason to yours, it is going into a finished space and no mess or cutting. You are right, there are many layouts in the backs of the catalogues! Thanks for the reminder and link.


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## shaker281

AFGP9 said:


> Shaker281 allow me to offer my 2 cents worth...


And a well appreciated 2 cents. A lot of good info, thank you. I plan to make some mountains and a water feature to blend into a wall mural on the wall ends, so a little like you have done. My rough plan is to have a river valley wall mural and maybe the water continues onto the board and off to the edge, allowing a trestle bridge or two. 

Regarding the foam board, does it need to be glued to the underlayment permanently? Be nice if it could be secured at the edges, with trim maybe, and allow for future changes (or mistakes). Maybe some well placed screws, say at the inside corners, making it less permanent? 

Would you be able to carve into the foam board for a lake or river effect, or is that a bad idea? Seems like you could rough carve terrain easily with one of those hot wire foam cutters. Maybe wrong type of foam? I am assuming you could simply glue various ground cover to the foam board too? 

I have seen a few videos on making walls, hills, lakes and most of it looks doable. I hadn't figured out ballast yet, so thanks for that. I actually have some black wood ties and might seek some more out, now that you mention it. I like the idea of adding K-line track while keeping my Gilbert too, I'll look into that. 

And good idea pre-drilling for wiring, I'm also thinking about methods to secure, label and distribute the wiring cleanly. Lots of terminal strips I think!


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## AmFlyer

Shaker281 here are some pictures I took this morning on and under the layout. Neat and labeled wiring is possible but there is a balance between spending your life under the layout and running trains. I hired people to do this.
You mentioned a river and backdrops. Here is a river under the bridges meeting the continuation painted on the backdrop. Next is the hills on the layout meeting hills painted on the backdrop. Yes, what you are imagining can be done.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281 the foam does need to be glued down. Liquid Nails is what I use. The beauty of using the 2" thick type is that you can dig into it creating ditches, rivers and other such scenery. The gluing does take weight to be placed on the foam. the best way I have found is to spread the Liquid Nails around with a wide putty knife so you get a nice even, smooth surface. 
Another neat perk is planting trees and bushes. Make a hole and stick 'em in. Couldn't be easier. You do have to paint the foam top. I have used a medium green and tan colors then add Woodland Scenics or similar brand, grass cover while the paint is still wet. I have always covered the foam first then added the grass covering. If you use the finer type, anything you put on top of it, track or any buildings will be fine. In other words, it won't affect what's put on top since it will easily compress. Then just use the Elmer's or any brand similar full strength to glue bushes and such down. The base ground cover is just a beginning base. You can always add other types of grass on top of it. Don't forget too that the foam makes a great mountain base for carving. One last thought regarding mountains. For rock edges I use stacked ceiling tile broken into random shapes for a jagged edges or some times smoothed here and there. It can be painted with black or white latex for highlights. You can either leave it at that or better yet spray the ceiling tile rocks with hair spray, cheap glue, then add some grass on it too. You can also add more mold foam mountains to this.


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## cramden

Tom, great pictures, really blends the scenery with the backdrop well. I would be happy if my wiring was half that good. My least favorite part of a layout since I tend to rush it, after telling myself it will be better to take my time. AFGP9, any chance to post a few pics. of your layout. It would be nice to see some if possible.


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## AFGP9

Yeah I know Cramden. I need to learn how to post pictures. Lazy I guess. No other honest answer. I am currently redoing part of my layout but is big enough that I could still get some pics taken.


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## shaker281

Tom, Those pics are extremely helpful. I was envisioning something just like that and it is great to see how pros do it. Also, I have no illusion that my first attempt at building a real layout and creating landscape will be anywhere close to what you have. But, it is good to see that my imagined layout has a professional analogue! your layout is something to aspire to. I was actually looking at trestle bridges today! 

I totally get having things done by pros, in order to enjoy one's time better. This venture for me, at this time, is about finding something productive to keep me occupied. So, getting down with the details is part of my plan. I still do my own landscaping, fix and modify my own cars and manage my own investments. All are things I currently consider hobbies. Plus, i am still working full time. However this year, I did hire a painter to paint my home's exterior - 2 story, all wood siding and windows - so, I am starting to outsource the really big stuff. 

AFGP9, thanks for the info. That is what I will do then, glue it down and then carve out landscape and build hills from foam too. Good info on the "ground cover", you pre-emptively answered my question about placing structures onto ground cover. And adding other layers afterwards. Perfect! I shall experiment with some of your suggestions for rock edges. etc. I imagine some combination of Elmer's, Mod Podge and sculptamold combined with various ground cover can work well to create hills and such. I figured some glue and lichen would go a long way to hiding my poor artistic abilities!

Any advice or hints on where to buy Woodland Scenics products, paints, glues or Envirotex or Sculptamold items? Amazon? Hobby store? Home Depot?


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## shaker281

AFGP9 said:


> Yeah I know Cramden. I need to learn how to post pictures. Lazy I guess. No other honest answer. I am currently redoing part of my layout but is big enough that I could still get some pics taken.


When I am just doing a pic or two I simply take it with the smartphone and email to myself. Then I open the email (on PC) and save the photo to desktop. From there I simply use the forum tools to browse to desktop and upload into a post (paperclip icon).

Hope that helps. Just a few simple steps.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281 thanks for the pic taking tips. I have taken a lot of pics with my Nikon then download to Picture Gallery. From there I can fix the pictures if needed. Things like crop, tint, and over all quality. Then I can attach them to emalls. I haven't explored that procedure for the Forum. It sounds like the smartphone idea might be easier although I have done so many the way I described that doesn't seem hard to me at all.

As to where to get your supplies, any big box store has the 2" thick foam and the Liquid Nails. If you can't haul a whole 4'X8' sheet, they will cut it for you. You then will just have easier to handle pieces. As to where to get your landscaping supplies, any hobby store should have them. If you do not have a hobby store then your next best place is Hobby Lobby. Besides usually having the Woodland Scenics line, they have this handy bag of real grass like stuff. I forget what it is called. You can get it in a variety of color combinations. Mostly green or less greenery and more dried brown pieces. I usually bought both. This stuff can be torn into most pieces any way you want. There are even some little stick and pieces of wood that I have found are very helpful to use as ground clutter under trees. I believe this stuff is used by flower decorators for the top of the potting soil when they stick in various flower plants. I wish I could think of the name of this stuff. If I do I will let you know. One more thing regarding this stuff. I use it to cover my AF track switches. It just looks like a bunch of dried weeds growing around them with a little greenery growing here and there which blend in with the other ground cover that I planted. 
One more point regarding Hobby Lobby. Take a stroll around their dried floweral department. You will be surprised at what you will find that you can use for scenery. I've found some flowers that you can strip away the dried flowers from and turn them into small trees or bushes by adding some of the Woodland Scenics . Cheap too. Just spray with the cheapest hairspray you can find and sprinkle on the medium grass cover. Of course you can always use real spray glue as well. I just know that cheap hair spray works too.


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## cramden

That's how I do it. Cell phone pics, email to my desktop, and load them into my pics. file. There might be a easier way, but that's the way I do it. It would be nice if there was a how to section on using this and other forums instead of forums assuming we all know how to do all of the options available. Trial and error I think sometimes keeps a lot of folks from participating. But, I can always ask one of my grand kids if I need help!:laugh:


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## AFGP9

Shaker281, I just did the smart thing and went down to my train room and looked at the spare bags I have of the Hobby Lobby stuff I told you about. It is called "Super Moss". The description says it is preserved sheet moss. Torn into small pieces and mixed with various Woodland Scenics types it looks great.


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## AFGP9

Thanks Cramden. I will have to explore the procedure to transfer from my Picture Gallery to the Forum. There is a procedure that describes how to transfer pics. from your phone or camera to your PC then how to attach to an email using the paper clip icon that I found titled "How to import photos with Windows 10". I just Googled "how to import photos with Windows 10". This tells how to transfer from your camera or phone to your computer.


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## mopac

Pic today is just a couple caboose sitting on a stretch of track. 945 and 977.
I am a caboose fan.


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## AmFlyer

On the subject of picture posting I can share how I do it. I post pictures to three forums, two on trains and one on cars. My pictures are on my computer and all are also on my iPad. I take pictures with the iPad, with an iPhone or with a Nikon camera. Years ago I created a folder structure on my iPad that enables me to drop new pictures into the correct folder so I can find them again. Apple makes a dongle with an SD card slot on the end. I put the SD card from the Nikon camera in it and all the new pictures are automatically transferred to the iPad. Of course it is easy to move pictures from an iPhone to an iPad.
I post all my pictures to the forum using the iPad. I have a folder called Posting to hold what I want to post so I can quickly find them. I find the pictures I want that are in other folders and add them to the Posting folder, this helps when there are over 10k pictures on the device.


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## AmFlyer

Nice cabooses, I like them. There sure is a lot of greenery in the background but I am glad I do not have to maintain it.


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## cramden

They appear to be in great shape mopac. I always wanted to make a lighted 945, but never did. Lighted cabooses always look better than unlighted ones.


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## mopac

Thanks guys. I never thought of that cramden. These are 2 of my best condition cabooses.


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## cramden

Re-posted in photo of the day


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## cramden

OOPS! Look like I posted in the wrong topic. I was looking at mopacs post and followed instead of paying attention.


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## mopac

Very nice tank car cramden. I have been eyeing these. Not cheap.

Tom, as far as maintaing the yard. It is a chore. Right now I am behind in its care.
I will catch up. Hardest part is when the trees drop their leaves. It is one acre. Only
maybe 5 houses on my road. All are on 1 acre lots. I have a John Deere X500 tractor.
It is bigger than the John Deere at the big box stores. My now deceased neighbor built
me a nice trailer. Comes in handy.
I have most of the wildlife found in Missouri. Here is a partial list of what I have seen in past month.
Deer- My back yard is a day care for baby deer
Squirrels
Chipmunks
Ground hogs
Blue Tail lizards
Too many snakes
Hawks - need more
Box turtles
2 young raccoons
Toads
Tree frogs
And probably more than I can think of

cramden, I am in wrong thread also. Sorry to Shaker.

cramden, that sure looks like a date stamp to me. Repost the tanker in correct thread.


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## AmFlyer

That is the date the box was stamped. the car was likely made at about the same time. The car looks to be an untouched factory original. When Lionel made the new run of these cars the originals dropped in value. The box with yours helps the value, it adds about $30.


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## cramden

Thanks Tom, I thought it might be a date stamp. Some of the stamps I've seen aren't as clear cut so I wasn't sure.


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## AmFlyer

Mopac, that sounds like too much work even with the John Deere. One of the nice things about SoCal is landscape maintenance is a big business and very competitive. So I have a service that comes once per week. In any event mine looks mostly like this.
Mostly concrete, some water and some raked gravel cactus plant beds. One side of the lot has a planted slope like yours, much smaller area. It has a retaining wall with a concrete trough behind it that leads any rain water runoff into large drains that are plumbed to the street.


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## cramden

Nice view Tom. My landscaper comes once a week too, me! I do have a friend with a landscaping co. who does the bull work that has become too hard for me.


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## AFGP9

Cramden that is an excellent Gilbert Chemical tanker. Always wanted one as I have several different tankers but not that one. Don't want to pay the high price. Some day maybe.


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## cramden

Thanks, even with the print blemish it was too nice looking to pass on.


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## shaker281

cramden said:


> OOPS! Look like I posted in the wrong topic. I was looking at mopacs post and followed instead of paying attention.


Neat looking tank car. No problemo!


Anyone have any suggestions on ballast material for Gilbert track? What grade to purchase? Where to purchase?

How about this real granite ballast? https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-SCALE-1-Quart-MODEL-RAILROAD-TRAIN-TRACK-BALLAST-/350460202883

My second thought is a mix of Woodland scenics coarse and medium grey ballast. And maybe some brown medium for the rivers edge. 

I am thinking to use tiny brads/nails to hold the track to the foam board at certain intervals, negating the need for track clips, then glue in wooden ties and finally ballast and glue spray. Hints? ideas? 

Not planning any track grades at the moment, but will first place any rivers and trestle bridges, then lay track.


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## mopac

I have heard the brads/nails will not hold in the foam. Instead of glue, use latex caulk
to hold the wooden ties. Much easier to remove if you change track layout. In HO scale
guys are using the caulk to hold track to the foam. Not sure if it will work on Gilbert
track, it might. Not much flat area on Gilbert track.

Just a very thin layer of caulk will hold those wooden ties to the foam. Use a caulk that says
it stays pliable.

I like the foam idea for sound deadening and for digging out rivers creeks.

Woodlands ballast would be my last choice for ballast. Real stone would be better.


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## shaker281

Thanks MoPac, good thoughts! I'd bet you are correct about the nails not holding. Removable caulk is a good idea. I wonder how muck track movement there is after spray gluing the ballast? Might not need much caulk.


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## AmFlyer

Shaker 281, I recommend you try ballasting a few sections of Gilbert track as a test. It is hard to do and consumes vast quantities of ballast. Go back and look at the picture I posted yesterday of the red caboose. That track has 1/8" thick ties and sits on a thin section of cork roadbed with sloped shoulders. The ballast is glued on and is literally about one stone thick in most places. Even then it took almost 200 pounds of ballast to do the visible track and the yard areas.


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## AmFlyer

A better way might be to use the rubber roadbed made for the Gilbert track. If you want you can ballast over it with a thin layer of stones. Here are two pictures of what could be done by ballasting over the rubber roadbed. This uses SHS/MTH sectional track with roadbed.
The first picture shows the layout prior to ballasting. Flex track on cork is shown meeting up with two 5” pieces of sectional track, an uncoupler and a homemade Sensor track for the legacy engines. 
The second picture is the same location after ballasting with a thin layer of stones. The Y3 pilot is sitting on the uncoupler and if you look close the track joint between the uncoupler and the sensor track is visible just in front of the pilot.
It might be worth testing with a piece of the rubber roadbed.


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## mopac

I would think Gilbert track would be hard to ballast. Ties are just too thick. It would take a lot of ballast. So I agree with Tom. Shaker, think about this, a layer or two of plywood
under the track and then a layer or two around the edge and in between the layers you could have your water. Your nails/brads would work then. You might want to forget the ballasting of Gilbert track. Not much you can do to make Gilbert track look realistic. Your wood ties is about all you can do to improve the look of Gilbert track. Or like Tom said, the rubber road bed.
Rubber roadbed is about 4 bucks a section of track. Too expensive for me.

If you want better looking track get Gargraves track. It costs but
not terrible. If you are wanting a layout with scenery think about Gargraves.


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## AFGP9

Shaker 281 I thought in one of my previous posts I had given you the way I have done the ballast for years. It works and never moves. No, nails of any sort will not work.

I use Woodland Scenics' medium ballast. I didn't include what type before. I mix gray and brown together. I also use glued down cork as a base. The glue mixture is thinned Elmer's glue. I first spray the ballast with a dish soap and water mixture so the glue mixture will flow into the ballast thoroughly. When dried it is very solid. Also the glue drys clear. 
I have found that using "O" gauge cork raises the track to the correct height plus gives you a nice looking ballast slope plus saves using so much ballast. 
When you need a siding, that track goes right on top of the foam board giving you a prototypical look. By that I mean all of your sidings will drop down the height of the cork. The Union Pacific runs near my house. When they laid all the high speed rail a couple of years ago, I noticed that the main line was higher than their mile long passing sidings so I checked the point where the two tracks diverge. Sure enough you can see a slight slope or drop off the diverging track. I checked more that one. All kinds of their sidings, big or small are built this way. I then checked the BNSF and Canadian/ Illinois Central and they too do the same thing. 
On my layout where I have laid the track in this manner, it looks very prototypical. I should add that since your the AF switch is on the cork, the track you lay for your siding will have a gap under the first piece then the rest will naturally lay flat on the foam board. You will have to add a little thicker layer of ballast to transition from the height of the "O" gauge cork to the foam board top. Just sick in your extra ties before you the glue is applied. I lay down a layer of ballast then join the track to the switch with a couple more sections and the weight of the added track pieces will naturally slope from the weight. You will see it isn't much of a slope but the just enough to be visible to your eye. 
When you add your siding pieces, add a layer of ballast at the height of the cork the length of a piece of track. Take the first piece and lay it where it will be so you can get an idea where to place your added ties, then attach the track pieces, remove any excess ballast then add glue.


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## mopac

Sidings do have a slope from the mainline. Keeps cars from rolling out onto the main.


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## AFGP9

I won't have time this weekend but I will try to post some pictures of my track and other things. When I say I won't have time, I mean to devote to getting pics posted since I have never done it before. Doing new things with the computer has always taken me several attempts to get it right. Just the way my luck runs.


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## shaker281

This is all very good. I now realize that I have two somewhat conflicting goals. One is to utilize vintage 40's and 50's AF structures, trains and track and the other is to achieve some level of creativity and realism with the custom landscaping. I should clarify that my "nail/brad" idea was only intended to keep the track positioned for the ballasting, not meant as a method of permanently securing the track, I had hoped that the water/glue mixture would do that. It sounds like it would. 

I have ordered some of the real crushed limestone off Ebay to experiment with. It appears to be a very coarse mixture specifying S-gauge. Might help with the Gilbert tie issue. I will see if I can mix it with more traditional coarse ballast too. And try to estimate how much it might take. I had not thought about a cork base or the height of the Gilbert track. Good points. If I can, I do want to retain Gilbert switches and track trips, etc, I am hoping to not stray off into an entirely different project. Clearly I am going to have to make some compromises to do that or buy all new track and switches. 

Everyone's input is very helpful. It has caused me to assess what end product I am shooting for. AFGP9, you did talk about ballast in an earlier post and I appreciate the clarifications, particularly the O-gauge cork info. Tom, thanks for raising this issue of ballasting Gilbert track in the first place. MoPac, I agree heartily on the cost of rubber roadbed and the inability to make Gilbert track look very realistic in any manner. 

I believe what I am shooting for is something a bit more realistic than a "department store" layout, but still with vintage Gilbert for the most part. A plan is forming in my head to set up the log loader, coaler, coal dump and Gabe to shine a light on them in one section (maybe a third) of the layout. Then a scenic portion with wood trestle bridges and river and hills with water tank, making up another third. And a passenger station with a small section of roadway and crossings, etc making up the final third. 

But I will think about switching to other track types. I need to research that, I have not looked seriously at what options are available. 

On a side note, I had a few pieces of fairly rusty Gilbert track and soaked them in white vinegar for a couple hours. It removed the nasty loose rust and after rinsing and spraying with WD-40, to prevent further rusting, they achieved an interesting patina on both rails and ties. Like an aging process. Just a couple hours nearly removed all the black paint from the ties. I was thinking about experimenting with the black wooden ties and some thinned brown paint to see how that turns out.

I am sure everyone would love to see those pics AFGP9! I know I would. I think you are using Gilbert track?


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## shaker281

AmFlyer said:


> A better way might be to use the rubber roadbed made for the Gilbert track. If you want you can ballast over it with a thin layer of stones. Here are two pictures of what could be done by ballasting over the rubber roadbed. This uses SHS/MTH sectional track with roadbed.
> The first picture shows the layout prior to ballasting. Flex track on cork is shown meeting up with two 5” pieces of sectional track, an uncoupler and a homemade Sensor track for the legacy engines.
> The second picture is the same location after ballasting with a thin layer of stones. The Y3 pilot is sitting on the uncoupler and if you look close the track joint between the uncoupler and the sensor track is visible just in front of the pilot.
> It might be worth testing with a piece of the rubber roadbed.


Very helpful pics. As you say, I need to experiment with cork and rubber, but I am also leery of raising the track even higher. Which might make the rubber roadbed a better alternative.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281 my whole layout except for the K-Line curved track is all 100% American Flyer track, switches, (turn outs), and uncouplers. I don't remember how many switches are on the layout. Somewhere around 22 I think. With the added ties, the amount of ballast needed is lessened and looks just fine unless you are a rivet counter then the Gilbert original ties plus the added ones won't be to your liking since they are out of scale anyway. I built my layout with idea of using all American Flyer track and switches. Never considered anything else. I knew it was reliable just like the engines. 
Adding the extra ties was an appearance thing. 
You said you cleaned up some track. I have "rusted" sides of my track using furniture touch up markers similar to a Magic Marker. Easier then painting. I think I also mentioned I had used rusty track with real rust on the sides in my yard tracks as well. Of course the rail tops are cleaned as are the pins and pin holes in the track. I figured why not use the real thing. 
In this scenario, original AF ties need cleaning up a little but hey, it is a rail yard and some of those rails and ties always look neglected or just old.
Cork isn't as high as the AF rubber road bed. I should have measured a piece for you. I will do that and get back to you. 

Remember one thing. It is your railroad and you are the president of it so whatever makes you happy. That was my philosophy from the beginning and still is.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281, I just measured a piece of that "O" cork that I use. It comes in 3 foot sections and it is 3/16" high and 3'' wide on the backside and 2 7/16" wide on the top or track side. The difference in width is due to the top having a beveled edge on each piece. Each piece has a 90 degree joining edge in the middle. It will have to be notched a bit to make a curve. I'm sorry I don't remember the price per box. 
The beveled sides make it easier to have a ballasted slope too. Hope this helps your decision.


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## shaker281

AFGP9 said:


> Shaker281, I just measured a piece of that "O" cork that I use. It comes in 3 foot sections and it is 3/16" high and 3'' wide on the backside and 2 7/16" wide on the top or track side. The difference in width is due to the top having a beveled edge on each piece. Each piece has a 90 degree joining edge in the middle. It will have to be notched a bit to make a curve. I'm sorry I don't remember the price per box.
> The beveled sides make it easier to have a ballasted slope too. Hope this helps your decision.


Thanks. I look forward to pics and will look into the cork too. Any particular brand? I found this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/midwest-cork-roadbed-3-25-model-train-track-roadbed-o-scale-3016

Look about right?


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## mopac

Shaker, Mid West cork is what you want to use. I use it for my HO. Use the caulk to
hold it to your table. It is what I am going to use for my layout. I think I will spray
paint the cork gray or black and no ballast. The brown it comes can work. The cork
makes a good roadbed.


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## shaker281

Thanks Mopac. I sure appreciate everyone's help and ideas! Soon, I will start ordering supplies and you guys are making the process so much easier.


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## AFGP9

Yep Shaker281, that's the cork I was talking about.

If you go with cork, I have found that when gluing curves or radius, after putting the glue on the cork, (I use straight Elmer's), T-pins work great for holding the cork in place while drying. If you don't know what T-pins are, they are straight pins with a "T" top. Also as you lay the cork, you will see that the inside piece will be shorter than the outside piece as you make our radius. Don't cut the inside piece to make it even because it makes a better joint if the two are not even.


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## shaker281

AFGP9 said:


> Yep Shaker281, that's the cork I was talking about.
> 
> If you go with cork, I have found that when gluing curves or radius, after putting the glue on the cork, (I use straight Elmer's), T-pins work great for holding the cork in place while drying. If you don't know what T-pins are, they are straight pins with a "T" top. Also as you lay the cork, you will see that the inside piece will be shorter than the outside piece as you make our radius. Don't cut the inside piece to make it even because it makes a better joint if the two are not even.


Good advice, thank you.


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## AmFlyer

Cork roadbed works great. Here are three pictures taken during construction of the same area of track, this is a fairly complex junction.
The first shows the cork roadbed, you can see none of the cork strip ends are adjacent as was recommended above. The second shows it with the track installed. Since I wanted to use the MTH uncouplers in the yard tracks it was necessary to height match the sectional track to the flex track on roadbed. We cheated and routed out the plywood to lower the sectional track rather than shim under the cork. The third is after the ground cover is detailed but prior to ballasting the the track. Ballasting should be done last for the best effect. The same principles apply with Gilbert track and supplemental ties.


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## shaker281

Thank you for these pics.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281, I have posted some pictures in the "Photo of the day" thread. Thinking about it now, I suppose I should have posted them to this thread. They are pictures of some of my scenery using broken pieces of ceiling tile. Check 'em out and see if you would like to do the same. Cheap, easy scenery construction. I went to Home Depot, Menards, and Lowe's and got broken pieces that they couldn't sell. I will post some of my track pictures as well.


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## shaker281

AFGP9 said:


> Shaker281, I have posted some pictures in the "Photo of the day" thread. Thinking about it now, I suppose I should have posted them to this thread. They are pictures of some of my scenery using broken pieces of ceiling tile. Check 'em out and see if you would like to do the same. Cheap, easy scenery construction. I went to Home Depot, Menards, and Lowe's and got broken pieces that they couldn't sell. I will post some of my track pictures as well.


I look forward to seeing the Gilbert track and wood ties with ballast. I just received more ties and track and ballast. Waiting on the benchwork, which is good, since I have had plenty of time to plan and am acquiring supplies and materials. 

You seem to have managed to blend realism and original Gilbert track, trains and accessories. Which is what I want to do. Can't wait to see more! 

I spent considerable time on the Mississippi in SW Wisconsin and might just incorporate this style into my layout. I was already planning to do something similar to that area. 

Mississippi bluffs near Winona , WI:


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## AFGP9

Shaker281 here are some pics of my track as I described it to you. One thing I have noticed, taking pictures of things sure brings out details I noticed that need my attention. The picture of the switch area is in part of my yard. I pulled back part of that cover that wasn't glued down to show you how I covered those switches. Back in the steam era, the yards I saw were always weedy and not well groomed as today's yards are. Since my layout is set in the steam to diesel era, I wanted the unkept, dirty look to go along with the steam engine soot look which was on everything near a rail yard back then. Even on near by city buildings.


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## shaker281

Thanks. If my hills or bluffs turn out close to yours i'll be pleased. Here is a picture I took of a test track section based on what you told me and other's contributions. This is "S gauge" scale limestone I bought off Ebay, with wood ties and some "brush". No cork on hand yet to incorporate that. Nor have I painted the rail webbing "rust" yet. The aging you see is from soaking in white vinegar.


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## mopac

Looking good guys. I did not think the Gilbert track would look that good ballasted.
I was wrong.


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## shaker281

Thanks Al. I think it turned out pretty good so far, appreciate your opinion!


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## AmFlyer

Looks good.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281, that test track looks pretty good. Your ballast looks similar to mine in size. I used Woodland Scenic's "O" scale simply because I have an abundance of it in light gray and dark gray. Also brown. One thing I have noticed about real ballast is that, at least on the Union Pacific which is only a mile from me, when they laid all new solid rail high speed track, 4 years ago, they used bigger stone size plus it is all an off white color. What was there for so many years with the old wooden ties was dark gray mixed with some white. In places you would see tan or light brown also. I have since checked other near by railroads and there is no rhyme or reason for what the ballast colors are. My conclusion is rail roads must use what ever color they could buy. 

If somebody has a better answer I'd be happy to know. I just know about the Union Pacific and it's predecessors, the Southern Pacific, Illinois Gulf, GM&O, and lastly or first, The Chicago and Alton all used and still use the same track corridor. 

As a side note you can catalog as useless information, I met a vendor at a selling event, kind of an upscale flea market I suppose, who had closed his hobby shop and was selling all his remaining inventory of Woodland Scenics inventory among other hobby shop stuff. He had 8 of those large totes setting there each full of Woodland Scenics. Long story short, I bought it all. After I got it all home and sorted it all out, I had bought Woodland Scenics entire product line!! With all I got I have only used a small portion of it even though I have used a lot on my layout. It is kind of nice to go under my layout and just sort of "shop' for what I want. I would tell you what I paid for it all but nobody would believe me. Hey the guy named the price, I didn't offer. He had other S gauge stuff there as well. I ended up buying everything S gauge related he had. For once in my buying life, I was in the right place at the right time. That was a first for me. I know one thing for sure, it makes doing scenery so much easier.


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## AFGP9

*Paint brush hairs as grass/weeds*

Shaker281 here is an example of what the brush hairs look like straight from the brush without any paint tinting.


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## shaker281

AFGP9, Thank you for posting the pics. Looks great. My project is stalled right now as I wait on supplies. I need to look for some brushes with finer bristles I think! Yours look very realistic.


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## AFGP9

Shaker281, glad you liked the pic of how I did those brush bristles. Sorry for the late response to your comment but I have been out of state for the last 3 days. The cheapest brushes I have found were from Dollar General in bundle of 5. The Dollar store also has them.


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## shaker281

Thanks for the hint, AFGP9. Dollar store is right next to the liquor store, so the trip will be worthwhile.


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