# More Newbie Questions



## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

1. What are the best, most understandable for a newbie, instructions for making Peco Code 55 electrofrog turnouts work with Digitrax DCC?

2. How do I connect pieces of Peco Code 55 track to Atlas Code 55 (if necessary) and to other pieces of Peco's Code 55? I know joiners are used, but there is not enough room at the ends of the pieces after the last ties to install joiners. So, how do I remove the ties?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Question 2 first. Usually when joiners are blocked by
ties you EITHER undercut the rail so the joiner can slip
in OR remove one tie. After the joiner is installed, you
can slip the loose tie back under it.

You should have instructions that came with your
Peco Electrofrog turnout as to how you power the
frog. You should also use an insulated joiner in both
Frog rails to avoid short circuits. I prefer Peco Insulfrog
to avoid these needs.

There are no special instructions for DCC. The Peco
turnouts are wired the same DC or DCC. References
to DCC in turnout information are meaningless
and end up confusing folks.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks. How do I undercut the rail or remove the tie? I haven't been able to find insulfrog turnouts for Peco's Streamline Finescale (Code 55) track.

As far as wiring goes., since I've never done this before, your second and third paragraphs are largely meaningless for me. For the turnouts, what do I need besides the track piece itself?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Peco or other turnouts & DCC*

ICRR;
Since you asked, here is the recommended method of wiring any turnout for DCC. Don R is correct when he says the wiring here can work for either DCC, or DC. If it confuses you, I understand how it could. Everyone didn't happen to spend most of their adult life fixing electrical equipment as I have. Please feel free to ignore any or all of this info. If you elect to use it, your turnouts will allow even short wheelbase locos to move freely through the turnout without stalling. 
The recommended "DCC" method is to electrically insulate the frog from all the other rails, and insulate the two points from each other.(If your turnout has a plastic throw bar the points may already be insulated.) The points are the rails that move when you change routes. Then you should solder a small jumper wire from each of the points to it's nearest stock rail. This is the rail that particular point hits when routes are changed. 
This may seem like a lot of complicated work, to a "newbie", but there is good news too. First note that I said "recommended", not "required". You could leave the turnout pretty much as is. Use Don R's always excellent advice, and put insulated joiners on the frog rails.
You did not mention the scale of your turnout, but I'm going out on a limb and guessing N, since your on the N-scale forum. (Duh!) The only reason that the scale would even matter is weather the insulfrog type that Don mentioned is available in N-scale. I don't know, since I don't use Peco turnouts; but I've seen a post, on this forum, that Peco offers only one type frog in N. If insulated frogs are available, I would copy Don's practice, and buy only that type. It would already have the modifications mentioned above, from the factory. 
As for the turnouts you now have, here is the reason behind the recommendations.
As is now, your turnouts probably have different voltages on a point, and it's adjacent stock rail. The gap between them is small; and it is possible a metal wheel may bridge this gap and cause a short. The recommended modifications make this impossible as the points and stock rail would be the same voltage.
However, the gaps on Peco turnouts are a bit extra wide, to accommodate any slightly to narrow gauged wheels. It's possible that this may make shorting by metal wheels rare or non-existent. If so you could leave them as is. 
If the frog is insulated,(either from the factory or by modification) then it needs to get power somehow.* The common way to do this is to connect a wire from the frog to the center contact of an electric switch.(often using the contacts built into a switch machine) The two outer contacts of this switch are wired to each of the stock rails. When in the straight position, the frog is connected to the stock rail/point used in that route. When set to the curved route, the frog is connected to the opposite stock rail and point,those used to route the train into the curve.

*Some modelers don't wire the frog to anything. Instead they rely on the all wheel pick up of their locos to get through the turnout without stalling. 
Personally, I prefer all the reliability I can build into my turnouts, so I do wire the frogs.


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm sorry. You apparently missed it. In the first question of my original post I adjed about wiring Code 55 electrofrog turnouts. I would go with insulfrog turnouts, but ny web searches have not turned up any for Peco's Code 55 track. So, electrofrog appears to be the only option; unlesd someone can provide me with link(s) to the various Peco Code 55 insulfrog turnouts. The only part of ths intimidates me is tge soldering -- whuch I've bever done.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Here's a link for Peco electrofrog wiring.

Unfortunately it continues the DCC nonsense but what
you need to do is correct.

http://www.sodigi.com/electrofrog.htm

And here is a video showing you how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3wIiCKVKqo

Hope these help you get those Pecos working. You made the
right choice to buy Peco so we want them right.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

I only wish Peco made there turnouts already wired and DCC ready like Kato does.

I've never soldered anything. How do I know when the metals are hot enough or at the right temperature? How do I know if the soldering is "good"? What is flux and is it separate from solder? What is it used for and how? As you can see, I know nothing about that aspect and would like to avoid it along with needing to purchase a lot of extra equipment -- I don't have a lot space.5


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Soldering is very easy with the little wires we use. It's
something you need to be able to do when you have
a model railroad. And it can be fun.

Get a small 25 watt or so soldering iron, Resin core solder,
and Resin flux. Then do a little practice with scrap wires.
You'll want to use the small point that comes with the iron.

Flux is a gel that prepares the material to be soldered. it
comes in a shoe polish size jar. You apply it with a tooth
pick, just a tiny amount. A 25 watt soldering iron is
about 8 inches long and weighs little. It'll come with a
little stand to rest the hot point. Any brand that you
find will be OK. I got mine cheap (as always) from
Harbor Freight.

The soldering iron will become hot enough to melt the
end of the solder roll in just a few minutes. 

To solder, for example, a wire to a small piece of brass
you would first 'tin' each. To do that, you put a dab of flux on the
wire and melt a tiny dab of solder on the iron tip, press the
wire into the solder and slowly pull it away. You'll see
the solder cling to the wire. You do the same with the brass
tab you want to solder the wire to. Then hold the wire
to the brass and touch the iron to the connection with
a tiny dab of solder on it. In just a second the soldered
connection will be made. The solder will solidify in seconds,
then you give the wire a little tug to ensure that it is
securely attached. If it is, likely the electrical connection
will be complete also. The solder conducts electricity.

When soldering to something that is mounted on plastic
you must be quick or use a heat sink. A heat sink could be a metal
clamp onto the metal, or a piece of cotton wet with water
to absorb excess heat. If you let the soldering iron linger
it will melt the plastic.

As I said, practice doing some soldering and you'll soon
get the knack of it.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

Don,

Thank you! That's very helpful, but leads to more questions.

1. I don't have any Peco code 55 turnouts yet. What comes with each.
2. For each turnout, do I have to buy a separate switch machine? Which do I buy for DCC applications?
3. Do I need to buy wire? What size/guage/or whatever it's called?

I'm trying to figure out what I absolutely need so I'll have all my ducks in a row before I dive into this.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I hope I don't mislead you, that is possible since I use
HO Peco Insulfrog turnouts. So far as I can tell reading
Peco material, the two scale products are similar except
for the size. 


That being the case:

1. You will need to buy the PL-10E twin coil machine (I tend to
call these motors, tho machine is correct) for each turnout.
You will need to also buy a PL-9 mounting plate unless you cut a
hole under your turnouts of about an inch square. I used this method
because the motor is attached directly to the turnout and you do
not have under the table alignment problems. Note if you elect
to cut the large hole you'll want the PL-10 and No Pl-9 would be
required.

As an alternative you may prefer to use the Tortoise motor. It
throws the turnout points slowly instead of a fast snap. If you
select this model you would use a Single pole double throw SPDT SWITCH
for each instead of the push buttons. These are usually mounted
under the table but can be mounted atop the table. The wiring
would be the same, except you would not need the Cap Discharge unit.


2. You will need to buy wires and push buttons. I recommend Black for the common
that goes to every motor. A green that connects to the 'straight'
terminal on the motor and to a button on your panel. A red that
connects to the diverting on the motor and to a button on your panel.
20 or 22 gauge would be sufficient.


You'll need 2 small normally open low current push buttons for each
turnout. Here is a pic of the buttons I used. Usually you can choose
the button color, red and green.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181204550725?lpid=82&chn=ps

I see that Peco does offer N scale turnouts as Insulfrog. If all of your
locos are fairly new and not little 4 wheel models you would find the
installation of these so much easier than the Electrofrogs. I use
only Insulfrog. The reason some get the Electrofrogs is that
they have locos with insufficient power pickup wheels.

You will need a power source for your turnouts. An old DC power
pack is ideal for this. But I would also recommend that you
build or buy a Capacitor Discharge unit to protect your turnout
coils from burn out due to stuck push button or accidentally
pushing one too long.

You mentioned DCC relative to your turnouts. If you wanted to
throw your turnouts by your DCC controller you would need a
stationary decoder for each turnout but you would no longer
require the wiring and the push buttons. You would still need
the PL-10 or PL-10E for each.

I hope I didn't bring up more problems than solutions. If I
did just ask.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

That is a wealth of information that will be very helpful. Thanks.

First, I sent an email to Peco and they replied that all of their N guage Code 55 turnouts are Electrofrog, but that all I would need was to use insulated joiners on the point rails.

Second, my plan is to control the turnouts with the Digitrax Zephyr. How will that change the wiring?

If I use the switch machine (motor) mountng plate will I stll need to cut a hole in the base? (my base is foam rather than plywood.)

Now, switching to another topic, the ties are not separate but connected to each other by strips of plastic. How do I remove one or more ties so the joiners can be installed? And, with the flex track, how do I keep the sliding rail from pulling out of the joiner when the rail is curved?

And now a curous comment. In this or some other forum I've read posts where the author stressed realism and claimed they chose Atlas code 55 track because the ties are more correctly spaced. What I find curious is, first, most viewers of a layout will not notice such things unless it is very glaring (like the 3 rail Lionel I had as a kid). Yet, I've not seen anyone mention audio realism. What I'm thinking of is the characteristic cluckety-clack as prototype trains pass over rail joints. With the long flex track and even straight pieces that aspect of realism is pretty much absent. Just an observation on my part. If I were a purist, I'd put slight cuts in each rail at the proper scale distance to produce that characteristic sound.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'll have to go with you if Peco said they only made code 55 Electrofrog
turnouts. Usually, these will power the frog when points contact the
fixed rail, so no further wiring would be needed in most cases. However,
you will have to use an insulated joiner in both frog rails to avoid shorts.

If you do not have a wood base for the foam it would seem to me difficult
to 'hang' the PL-10E. Th PL-9 plate screws into underside of plywood
normally.

You would need a stationary decoder for each turnout. I have not used
these but logic tells me (just a guess) that you will need to use a buss to
carry 'accessory' current to each turnout. That will be switched by the
station decoder. (Hey you who have used the stationary decoders for
turnouts, come in and correct me if wrong. Explain what power is used
for the PL-10s).

To remove one or two ties from the end of a flex or other track turn it
over. You'll see a ridge of plastic under a rail connecting the ties. Use a hobby knife
or razor knife to cut that. You can then slide the ties off. Often you may
need to use the hobby knife to cut off the 'spikes' molded on to the ties
when you place them back under the joiner.

Yes, the one nice thing about sectional track is that metal wheels running
on it will give a nice click. About the only thing you can say to purists
who don't hear that click is that it is WELDED RAIL as is common on
most first class real railroads now. It is their flex track. Maybe you could
keep a jar of rivets on hand for them to count. Modelling should be fun.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

As usual, thank you for the help. However, I've discovered another potential problem. I'm a passenger train enthusiast. My handle here is for Illinois Central but ignoring tgeir freight division. All of my trains are Kato. So, how do I uncouple without changing couplers, which I refuse to do -- I'd settle for Kato track over changing couplers. On a test Kato track, their uncoupler worked as advertised once I got the hang of it. How can I accomplish the same thing with Peco code 55? Thanks again.

Found what appears to be the solution to the above question. Have you heard of the "Totally Hidden Uncoupler System"? In essence it seems to be similar to Kato's and non-electric, which is what I want/need.

Oh yes, back to the turnouts. Yes, I have a plywood base with an inch of foam (Woodland Scenics) on top. Also, I'm inclined to go with Tortoise machines. What is different from the PL10e?

I really do appreciate all the help!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Not familiar with Kato n scale couplers but from what I read about them they
appear to be compatible with Kadee and other make knuckle couplers
for the most part.

I do understand that they come as a 'kit' that requires you to install
the 'hose' 'trip pin' if you want the magnetic uncoupling. 

I am not familiar with what you describe as 'totally hidden uncoupling'.
I have to assume it is a super magnet that goes under the track
similar to that put out by Kadee and others. You back the train over it,
stopping when the couplers are centered on it, then slowly pull away.
No electricity involved.

The Tortoise machines for turnouts are highly regarded. They use a
'stall' motor that slowly moves the turnout points. The PL-10 is
a twin coil machine that snaps the points in place. I see three
Digitrax decoders that claim to work for Tortoise machines: DS44, DS52 or 
DS64. It appears you could use either depending on what is
stocked by your dealer.

You would have no difficulty attaching the Tortoises to the plywood
under your table. The correct alignment of it is important. The 
instructions will guide you on that.

By the way, I grew up in Illinois Central Territory. My grandad retired
from the IC. He took me as a young tyke to see the 'choo choos' at
the IC roundhouse. (It was actually a 2 track engine house). Long gone.
When the coal mines quit they pulled up all the yard tracks leaving only
one spur track to a grainery and the single track main from St. Louis to
DuQuoin. There has been no passenger service on that line for decades.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

So far the only Kato trip pins that need to be inserted came with my locos. The passenger cars seem to be ok. I thought I read somewhere that Kato's coupkers are actually Kadee's .

I don't want to put the tortoises UNDER the table but on TOP under the foam. But I don't know if they can be mounted that way. The tortoise comes in a version with a built in decoder, but whether the Digitrax decoder is "better" I don't know.

I grew up in Illinois and rode the IC between Chicago and my home town quite often. And then, in Florida, I lived where the Panama Limited route ended. Maybe that's why I'll run their trains.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'd go with the Tortoise with built in decoder, you know it's
going to be capable of handling the machine current and
manner of control.

The tortoise is not a small item, you may want to look at
small buildings, clumps of weeds and the like to hide
an on top of the table machine.

Don't recall when the Panama Limited ended it's run, we
lost the City of Miami when Amtrak took over. When we
moved to Florida, my wife and kids came down on
the City of Miami. We also lost
a second train from Chicago run by Pennsylvania. Now to get to Chicago
from Jacksonville you must train to Washington DC and change
trains. Katrina killed our Amtrak Sunset Limited service from
New Orleans which ended any capability of changing trains
there for the City of New Orleans to Chicago. As the man
said, you jist cain't git thar frum here.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

I just got a second email from a guy at Circuitron (spelling?) about the tortoise. He said, basically, they have to do some major modifications to the Peco turnouts for them to work properly with the tortoise of either color (DCC or not). This is turning into a major and very costly endeavor. As much as I like the Code 55, I may have to rethink that route. Digitrax tells me that the Kato turnouts work with their equipment pretty much right out of the box. But I'm too new at this to be any judge.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I think all you need to do with Peco turnouts is remove the springs that hold the points against the rails. :dunno:

I mounted some tortoise machines on top of the layout, you'll need about 2" of foam board above the bench work to make it work, either that or hide them in a building but in N scale that's a big building. Here's how I did it. But this is in HO.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=266544&postcount=32
In N scale that's a big mountain or hill. 
Magic


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, as Magic says, removing that 'latching' spring
lets the Peco turnout points move freely. The Peco
throw bar has a hole midpoint just as does many
other turnouts. That would accept the Tortoise
throw bar, so I don't know what they are
referring to. I'm surprised
that Circuitron was so discouraging. The spring is
easily accessible, (at least on the HO version)
so if you want the Tortoises I would go ahead and
buy one and test it on your turnouts. 

Yes, when you go with all brand new fairly high tech
gear the $ do start adding up. I am cheap. Most of
my layout is comprised of used gear. The flex track
and Peco turnouts and a couple locos are the only new
stuff n the room. I enjoy upgrading the used cars and
locos.

Don


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

Well, the $ on my retirement income is limited. That is the main consideration here. Consequently, I've been "forced" to go with Unitrack (I asked when they were going to duplicate the track in Code 55, but have yet to receive an answer). But I still have questions.

1. On Kato equipment the trip pins need to be 0.25mm above the magnet. I don't have a ruler that goes that fine. Is there anything that is the right thickness that I could use to set the pins?
2. Have any of you painted the track so it looks more like real steel? What did you use? Did you paint just the sides of the rails?
3. I have some questions about reversals that I will post in a new thread.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Kadee makes a coupler height gauge that will check trip pins. 
Well worth the money.

Magic


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

Magic said:


> Kadee makes a coupler height gauge that will check trip pins.
> Well worth the money.
> 
> Magic


Might you have a link or at least the product number? Thanks.


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

And now for another dumb question.

Given that the rails form an electrical circuit, can there be any open track, such as a spur where the track just ends -- no bumper?


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Yes, why not?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It is normal to let a spur or yard track just end. It does not
need any electrical loading. In fact, due to what is known as 'power routing'
some turnouts will turn off the power to a spur when the points
are set for straight through.

Don


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

icrr said:


> Given that the rails form an electrical circuit, can there be any open track, such as a spur where the track just ends -- no bumper?


Think of a battery, power pack, generator, or wall outlet. If you connect a wire to each terminal and string them out a ways, that would be similar to the spur you mentioned...wires waiting for some electrical device to use the available electricity. Until a device uses the power, they just sit there with the electrical potential applied to them. Touch the wires together, that's a short circuit. Place a light bulb or motor across the wires and you have a completed circuit. If you set a loco on that spur and supply power to it, it will use that power to move. If no loco is there, and you turn on the power, those tracks just sit there powered up, ready to supply energy.


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## icrr (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks guys. That's what I thought, but wanted to be sure. I wasn't certain whether a bumper was used to form a complete circuit or whether that was accomplished by the locos and rolling stock that take power (such as for passenger car lighting).

I was wondering because I will have to build the first "section" of my track in stages. And, in preparation for the next stage, wanted to put any turnouts in place with only the straight through rails being used and no track attached to the alternate rails. If I needed to use bumpers I would, but I wanted to find out if that was absolutely necessary -- trying to save money wherever I can. As an aside, most of the turnouts lead to alternate routes. And those will lead to a new post about reversals.

Thanks again for the help and your patience.


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