# AHM LOCO AND ATLAS TURNOUT ISSUES



## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

Hello,
This is a little long so bear please bear with me.
Having two issues...
1)AHM Jersey Central Alco Century 424 that needed to be cleaned and lubed and now the motor runs fine but the Loco will not stay on the track, when it encounters any little imperfection in the track it derails, especially at the turnouts, it either derails or wants to follow the curve into the yard even though the turnout is locked in place to follow the mainline. 
The turnouts are non-functional and are isolated from the mainline.
I have another AHM Alco Century 424 that has none of these issues and stays on the track with no problem.
I inspected both and examined them side by side and cannot see any physical differences as to why one stays on the track and the other will not.
Both of these Loco's were purchased as NOS and supposedly never used, they looked new when I got them.
QUESTIONS...
a)Is this common?
b)Did I miss/overlook something simple?
b)Can anything be done to the smooth out the turnout area so they loco will want to follow the mainline?

2)Voltage Loss at the Rear Turnouts.
So you have all of the info I am running AHM Locos which are not very powerful and an MRC Model 100 Transformer which I also know is not very powerful, with cars attached have to run at a minimum of 60% for the train to make it past the rear turnouts without stopping.
Once going the good loco will run for 10 minutes or so with no issues then when it gets to the rear turnout it will just stop.
A little push from behind and off it goes again for another 5, 10, 15 minutes and then it stops again, a little push and so on.
I just cleaned the wheels and wheel contacts and have perfect continuity from the rear wheels to all 4 front wheels and from all wheels to the track, I also cleaned the track again so I am thinking the issue is with the connections at the rail joiners, ever so slight gap between the track pieces.
The track was tested when it was first put down a few months back and there were no issues, this issue started with the warmer weather so I am guessing expansion...???
QUESTION
a)Without running feeder wires, tearing up the track, buying new locos or a new transformer can anything be done to make a better connection at the rail joiners and minimize voltage drop/loss?
Liquid Solder?
Silver Filled Epoxy?

Here are pics of the two locomotives and the turnouts as they sit on the layout.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Do your other engines have these problems? 

The ten minutes situation is really strange. I would feed the power directly to the sections around the problem spots. See if that helps. 

I would check the wheel guage. One wheel set out of guage and you can have these issues.

Looking at the bottom engine pix, you have the traction tire wheels placed differently. While I do not think it matters with good tires, old worn or slick tires will cause this to lead to a difference in the two engines. This may be part of your draw bar force difference. I've measured a 30+% increase with good tires. 

The other thing that matters is the engine weight. That is why new engines have as much weight as can be added. The overall performance may not be helped with weight, but the draw bar force is usually improved. 

You need to measure the voltage and current draw for your engines. Your transformer has a maximum power, VA level. It will balance the voltage and current draw based on all loads in the circuit. When the VA limit is exceeded, the voltage drops until the balance is achieved. Voltage is the independent parameter for the electric motors. Lower voltage, lower speed, lower draw bar force. Combining that with the resistance of sharp curves and grades and the motor can stall. 8-10 4 ounce free rolling cars could be a limit depending on the track severity. If the grade is 2.5% or more, to pull the train the speed will drop towards zero. If the car wheels are not free running and or the car weights are greater than 4 oz then expect smaller slower trains.

Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Regarding the derailing problem... The first and easiest thing to check is the wobble in the trucks. Both trucks should be free to wobble slightly in both directions -- front-to-back and left-to-right. Make sure that each truck goes from slightly-too-far-left to slightly-too far-right. Then check the front-to-back wobble the same way. You may find that you will have to loosen a truck slightly to achieve this amount of wobble.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Regarding the loco taking the curve into the yard when the turnout is set for straight...

Three of the four turnouts in your photos look like the older style of Atlas turnouts. The points in those turnouts are made of a thin metal that bends easily. They are also anchored by rivets, which usually loosen over time. When a loco goes onto the points they may be bending down a little under the weight of the loco and moving just enough to allow the loco's wheels to "pick the point" and go in the wrong direction. Sagging points could also lead to a loss of power, as the loco may tip slightly, lifting some of the pick-up wheels off of the track.

The turnout in the second layout photo looks like a newer style Atlas turnout. The points are as thick as a regular rail, and there is a notch in the stock rail where the point rests. This helps prevent "point-picking". There are also plastic covers over where the point is attached at both ends -- presumably to help keep the points from wobbling.

Your best bet is to replace the older-style turnouts with new ones. I inherited a bunch of similar turnouts and spent a lot of time and energy trying to improve their performance. They got better, but I never completely fixed all of the problems.

If you go to a different brand of turnout, be aware that the footprints of the turnouts will be a little different -- requiring you to adjust your track layout.

P.S. Why does one loco work better than the other? Many times problems in model railroad performance are due to slightly-less-than-perfect track meets a slightly-less-than-perfect loco. If the track was perfect, both locos might run fine. If both locos were really identical, they might both run on less-than perfect track.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

ggnlars said:


> Do your other engines have these problems?
> Larry
> www.llxlocomotives.com


I have four engines, the "1776" is the best runner of the bunch.
The Yard Switcher runs fine and obviously with the short wheel base has none of these issues, just has no power or a traction issue, runs fine by itself but will not pull any cars.
The Jersey Central is the one we are discussing issues with and the Union Pacific AHM GP18 runs poorly, needs to cleaned and lubed which I plan on doing next week.
To try a known good loco I will need to borrow one from one of my Grandson's if one will let me, you know how 6 year olds(and all of us to a point) are with their stuff.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> Regarding the loco taking the curve into the yard when the turnout is set for straight...
> 
> Three of the four turnouts in your photos look like the older style of Atlas turnouts. The points in those turnouts are made of a thin metal that bends easily. They are also anchored by rivets, which usually loosen over time. When a loco goes onto the points they may be bending down a little under the weight of the loco and moving just enough to allow the loco's wheels to "pick the point" and go in the wrong direction. Sagging points could also lead to a loss of power, as the loco may tip slightly, lifting some of the pick-up wheels off of the track.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying and I now see the differences in the two turnouts however...
Tearing up the layout and replacing turnouts is not really a feasible option at this time.
I am on a very tight budget and most of this layout was/is put together with used items which I could afford so I need to work with what I have.
Is there anything that can be done to improve the performance of the older turnouts as they sit right now?
Although I would like to have all of my locos run well and be able to switch up whenever I feel like it if that is not possible with the layout as it is I will probably have to live with that for now.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

You've gotten excellent advice already, but may I add I encountered a similar electrical problem. 1 normally good running engine would start to "stutter" after a while, same place every time. drove me bats. Finally I took a long screwdriver and as the engine ran around I would push down a little on the edge of the track near where the problem was, and about the 8th time of trying different spots the problem stopped as I was putting pressure in a certain place. it was a rail joiner. only affected 1 engine. I carefully slid the rail joiner back and forth a couple times and problem gone. As far as the turnout, you might try filing a bevel on the leading end of the point . Also set the locomotive on a piece of glass or mirror and see if all the wheels are touching. I've seen twisted trucks before.


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## dsertdog56 (Oct 26, 2014)

I'm looking at the picture of the first (after the engine photos) turnout and can already see a problem. Don't know if it always looks like this but....

It appears that the points aren't closed. There's a gap at the bottom point and the main rail. My guess is that ballast or some other debris fouled the linkage or it's damaged. If your engine hits this just right it may stall against the point or derail. This may occur as things heat up during operation.
Another thing to check is track level across the rails. Lastly, make sure your wheel flanges aren't riding up n the plastic re railers and frogs. All mine had to be filed down so the wheels would stay on the rails.

AHM engines are always dicey. They are great for train sets but lack weight and power for larger consists. Once you fix your turnout a bit more weight over the non powered truck may allow a few more cars to be pulled and might help the engine track through your turnouts better.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

Thanks for all of the replies so far.

After looking at the track carefully I noticed that the track is not perfectly level, it is laid upon 1/4" Elmers foamboard which is on top of 1/4" fiberboard (3 - 24" x 48" sections) which I understand is not the preferred way but it was the only way for me to be able to transport and carry the items home so that is what I went with, this was supposed to just be a simple, enjoyable layout that had to be inexpensive.

I also noticed that the longer the train runs the worse the condition gets so it may be in the loco itself.
After looking at ggnlars (Larry) webpage on "tuneup" I realized I did not pay attention to the brushes or commutator so...

I am going to take the Jersey Central with me to my Son's house this weekend and see if it will run and/or stay on track on my Grandson's layout.
I will also ask my Grandson if I can borrow his Lifelike loco and I will get the running loco out of the Christmas trains.

I am on vacation next week and for me that means spending time with the Grandkids and a couple of days at home relaxing so I will then have time to check some of these things next week.

With my Anxiety/OCD issues this is becoming very aggravating and frustrating and things like this tend to "consume" me so it is not fun anymore...
Any advice on how to handle this???


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I think dsertdog has it sussed. AHM is not the best and can be variable. When you put that together with Atlas points which have their own well documented problems you can have trouble. As he correctly observed the top pic shows the turnout not properly closed, there being no spring to hold them unlike Peco. It's really up to you how you want to fix it. You could replace the turnouts but that would involve you in a fair bit of track relaying or you could motorise them with a tortoise or similar which would keep them closed but you wouldn't be tackling the root cause.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Buddy, I'm at this now 40+ years. There's always something that won't work right. If you think about it it's a wonder they work at all
My son's favorite " blue trains" were wearing me out, couldn't keep them going, work, work, work. Finally I repowered them and now they run fine. I posted part of that.
I've got an old Freeport sulpher tank car. Won't stay on the track. New trucks, swapped frames, filed the bolsters. No better.
The grinder is that I have a twin to it that runs perfectly.
Don't sweat it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I saw the same thing as desertdog. There is a pocket
in the stock rail where the point can align with the
stock rail. This one is misaligned. You may be able to
bend the point rail carefully, or file the pocket to permit
deeper penetration.

Any misalignment of track will cause derailing be it
vertical or horizontal. Sometimes it is very difficult
to see. Horizontal realignment is usually easy. You
can use shims under the low sides where a vertical
problem exists.

The slowing of the loco after a time running could
be increased friction due to expansion of some
part.

If the various suggestions fail to solve your
problems with derailing there is a method to help
find a derail problem

Run the loco to the point where it derails. Get
very close to that with a bright light. Then run
the loco as slow as it will go thru the derail area.
Watch the front wheels very closely. When you
see them start to lift (or take a wrong turn) STOP.
Carefully inspect the track and/or turnout exactly
where the wheel was when it erred. 

The fault usually is a point problem on a turnout
(could be vertical) or a vertical misalignment on a track.

You may need to add more drops to your track
on the far side of your layout to ensure stable
voltage all around. As mentioned, joiners can
lose good electrical conductivity and may need
a good pinch.

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

DonR said:


> I saw the same thing as desertdog. There is a pocket
> in the stock rail where the point can align with the
> stock rail. This one is misaligned. You may be able to
> bend the point rail carefully, or file the pocket to permit
> deeper penetration.


I assume that DonR and desertdog are referring to turnout in pic #1 (the first of the four turnout pics). That turnout (and the turnouts in pics 3 &4) have the thin metal points and NO notch in the stock rail. The point in that pic is not up against the curved stock rail. As mentioned before, first check to see of a piece of dirt or ballast is keeping the point from moving all the way to the stock rail. If that is not the case maybe some ballast or dirt is keeping the throwbar from moving the point all the way to the stock rail.

If this is not the problem, then are you using a switch machine or do you move your turnouts manually. If you have a switch machine, you need to adjust the throw to push the point all the way to the stock rail.

If you are operating turnouts manually, the points might start out in contact with the stock rail but there is no spring to keep them there. Train vibrations might move the point. If this is the case, see if you can add some resistance to the throw bar movement -- like putting a thin piece of cardboard under it. That might help the points stay put.

As noted in an earlier post, you can also use a small file to LIGHTLY round off the top and inside edges of the point. (Inside means the edge not in contact with the stock rail.)


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

DonR said:


> Run the loco to the point where it derails. Get
> very close to that with a bright light. Then run
> the loco as slow as it will go thru the derail area.
> Watch the front wheels very closely. When you
> ...


This is a good thing to do as a first step to identifying the problem. One thing to add.

Check both sides as you go through this exercise. Once you see something out of order on one side, check the other side. Sometimes when you see a wheel climbing the track, it is because the wheel on the other side already dropped off the rail onto the ties, and is forcing the opposite wheel over its rail.

-----

Also, you can use this method to start identifying the cause of the stoppages that you have been having. When the slow-moving loco stops, the cause is either a short circuit of a loss of power. The first step is to find out which. Some power supplies have a short indicator light (sometimes called "overload"). If yours does not, clip a multimeter on a nearby section of track and set it on DC volts (I am assuming a DC layout here). (If you don't have one, get one -- it is an essential tool for model railroaders -- and it comes handy for troubleshooting other electrical problems around the house.)

When the train stops, quickly check the voltmeter. If it still reads a low voltage, you have a loss of power to the loco. If it reads zero, either you have a short, or the power supply sensed the short and shut down (to protect the power supply from damage from the short). This is why you check the voltage quickly -- it usually takes a second or two for the shutdown to occur.

If you determine that you have a loss of power to the loco, turn off the power supply, then take a small piece of thin paper and try to insert it between each wheel and the track. You might find that one or more of the wheels is not touching the rail -- leading to the loss of power to the loco. The usual reasons for this loss of contact with the wheels are: (1) trucks that are not level or are too tightly bound to the loco (i.e. not free to wobble in all directions -- see my earlier post on this), or (2) uneven track.

The easiest way to check for uneven track work is with a small level. Be sure to check across the rails as well as along the rails. As mentioned earlier, use shims to level out the track. Also, use an NMRA gauge to check that the track (and wheels) are the correct distance apart. If you don't have an NMRA gauge, get one.

As for the turnouts, I have found (using the NMRA gauge) that the distance between the curved stock rail and the other curved rail/point is sometimes a little too wide, leading to derailments in that area. Also as WVGCA has pointed out, some of the older Atlas turnouts are a little high in the frog area, meaning that, if you level the straight track, the curved track dips down a little. He suggests GENTLY filing the frog area down until it is level with the two outer stock rails.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

You guys have done a great job explaining how to find this problem. I'm the type that can figure it out when I'm looking at it, but I have a hard time explaining what to look for. 
WELL DONE:appl:


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

My previous post got so long that I lost track of where I was, and forgot to add one more step...

If you determine that a loco stops due to a short, the most likely cause is that a loco wheel is touching both rails at the frog. This is easy to check. Once the loco stops, look at the frog. If there is a wheel on it, is it touching both rails at the frog. If so, turn the power back on (on low) and gently use a pencil or wood dowel to nudge that wheel off of the track that it should not be touching (but not hard enough to derail it). If the loco takes off, you have found the problem. If this turns out to be your problem, let me know and we will go through the possible fixes for this situation.

P.S. If your power supply is shutting down when shorted, you will have to nudge first, then turn the power back on.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

Cycleops said:


> I think dsertdog has it sussed. AHM is not the best and can be variable. When you put that together with Atlas points which have their own well documented problems you can have trouble.


When I got back into this I wanted to use the products I used 40 years ago when I built my first small layout which is Atlas Track, AHM/Bachmann/Tyco/Lifelike Trains and Accessories, MRC Transformer.
A lot of hobbies/collections/collectibles/interests that we have are rooted in nostalgia from an earlier/happy time in our lives that we are trying to recreate or relive and when we do this we remember those good times, that holds true for my comic books and it holds true for the trains I want to run.
I will just have to show patience and do my best to make them run well with what I have.



time warp said:


> Buddy, I'm at this now 40+ years. There's always something that won't work right. If you think about it it's a wonder they work at all
> My son's favorite " blue trains" were wearing me out, couldn't keep them going, work, work, work. Finally I repowered them and now they run fine. I posted part of that.
> I've got an old Freeport sulpher tank car. Won't stay on the track. New trucks, swapped frames, filed the bolsters. No better.
> The grinder is that I have a twin to it that runs perfectly.
> Don't sweat it.


Thank You!!!
Makes me feel better knowing I am not the only one.



MtRR75 said:


> I assume that DonR and desertdog are referring to turnout in pic #1 (the first of the four turnout pics). That turnout (and the turnouts in pics 3 &4) have the thin metal points and NO notch in the stock rail. The point in that pic is not up against the curved stock rail. As mentioned before, first check to see of a piece of dirt or ballast is keeping the point from moving all the way to the stock rail. If that is not the case maybe some ballast or dirt is keeping the throwbar from moving the point all the way to the stock rail.
> 
> If this is not the problem, then are you using a switch machine or do you move your turnouts manually. If you have a switch machine, you need to adjust the throw to push the point all the way to the stock rail.
> 
> ...


The switches are manual but are not in use, they are locked in place to only allow the train to run on the mainline.
I locked them in place using track nails when the track was first laid and then the ground cover was placed over the manual switch so it does not move.
Obviously dirt/ballast/ground cover did get between the points and the mainline which is creating a problem.

Here are a couple of pics, Please verify this is what needs to be done.

A = File To A Point For Easy Transition Through The Frog
B = File Down To Be Level With Rail Height
C = Be Sure They Are Straight
D = Remove Debris And Be Sure The Point Makes Good Contact With The Main Rail.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> If yours does not, clip a multimeter on a nearby section of track and set it on DC volts (I am assuming a DC layout here). (If you don't have one, get one -- it is an essential tool for model railroaders -- and it comes handy for troubleshooting other electrical problems around the house.)
> 
> Also, use an NMRA gauge to check that the track (and wheels) are the correct distance apart. If you don't have an NMRA gauge, get one.


Thank You for all of the tips.
I was an Automotive Service Tech for 33 years and ASE Certified for 37 years, I own 3 Multi-Meters.

As soon as finances allow I will purchase the NMRA Gauge.

On another note...
Although I realize this is not the same animal due to its short wheelbase and weight I ran the yard switcher for over one hour with nary a hiccup although I did notice it hop slightly when hitting the rear turnouts.

The "1776" Alco Century that I was running that had the power loss issues at times I disassembled again, cleaned the commutator, wheels and contacts (again), removed excess oil from the motor and gears but have not put it back together yet, trying to do this slowly and not be consumed so I do not get frustrated.

After tomorrow I will be gone until Wednesday when I will be home for 3 days and then I will have time to work on these issues, after I clean the place that is, it is pollen season and the windows are open...


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

NAJ said:


> The switches are manual but are not in use, they are locked in place to only allow the train to run on the mainline.
> I locked them in place using track nails when the track was first laid and then the ground cover was placed over the manual switch so it does not move.
> Obviously dirt/ballast/ground cover did get between the points and the mainline which is creating a problem.
> 
> ...


First, just to be sure that we are talking the same language....
Your label "A" is not where the points are. Here is a diagram of the parts of a turnout









The points are the ends of the moving parts of the closure rails. Your "A" are the ends of the guard rails.

The fact that your turnouts are fixed in one direction changes some things about my recommendations. First, are you planning to return the turnouts to a working condition in the future? The answer to this will determine what things to do now. But there are some things that are you can do now, even with the turnouts locked in one position.

I suggest that you take it one step at a time -- based on the symptoms and on the results of the slow-motion tests -- just as you would on an automobile.

Removing the debris and relocating the point against the rail at D is obviously the first thing to do. Then comes, checking the straightness of the point rails at C.

As for filing down the high ends of the guard rails at A, I did not recommend this, but I believe that someone else did. I usually have not needed to do this on my layout (17 Atlas turnouts). But I did have to do it on a couple of turnouts for a six-wheel tender that had issues with its wheels and trucks. As for you, I would not recommend doing this unless you determine that your derailments are starting at the ends of the guard rails.

As for filing down the frog area, I would not do this at this time. Since your turnouts are fixed in one position, the curved portion of the turnout is irrelevant. As long as the straight portion of the turnout is level, you should be fine.

P.S. I forgot about the filing of the points. If you find that locos are still trying to go the wrong way (i.e. wheels sliding between the stock rail and the points, first make sure that the points are firmly pushed against the stock rails. If the problem persists, try rounding the ends of the points -- both the top corners and the inside edges (making them a little thinner at the tips). Do this slowly -- just a little at a time.


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## beepjuice (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm new at this, too but I've learned that track connections are key. I see some gaps in the track connections and maybe this doesn't help. I soldered wires to my joiners so the connection is solid. You can never have too many wire feeds in my mind. How do you throw the turnouts? I couldn't see. Groundthrows are pretty dependable to keep the point rails snug for a good electrical connection which might be another source of your engine stopping problem.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> 1)First, just to be sure that we are talking the same language....
> Your label "A" is not where the points are. Here is a diagram of the parts of a turnout
> The points are the ends of the moving parts of the closure rails. Your "A" are the ends of the guard rails.
> 
> ...


1)Sorry for the confusion.
I actually looked at some video's explaining turnouts and what I posted was...
"A = File To A Point For Easy Transition Through The Frog".
What I meant was put more of a taper on the end of the guard rails where the wheels enter for a smoother transition.

2)The turnouts will never be used, they are for static display only to add more detail to the layout.
The only part of the layout that is functional and will be functional is the mainline oval.

I will start by clearing all debris from the point blades and being sure that they are snug against the mainline rail and straight.

One of the things I have to do first is get a "known good running" locomotive and that is my plan this weekend while I am at my Son's house.
With the issues I am having I cannot be sure of the running capability of the "1776" as to weather the issues are with the loco, the track or both.
Going to try our Christmas loco (Bachmann GP18) out on my Grandson's layout to be sure it is still running properly, if so I will bring that home as our track test unit..
My three 7 year old Grandson's all have good running loco's but I doubt any of them will allow to take one home.



beepjuice said:


> I'm new at this, too but I've learned that track connections are key. I see some gaps in the track connections and maybe this doesn't help. I soldered wires to my joiners so the connection is solid. You can never have too many wire feeds in my mind. How do you throw the turnouts? I couldn't see. Groundthrows are pretty dependable to keep the point rails snug for a good electrical connection which might be another source of your engine stopping problem.


Due to the nature of the layout, and the space I had to work with the layout is on foamboard that is on fiberboard and all of that sits on a 30" x 72" table.
Due to it sitting on a table and the fact that all of track, ballast and ground cover are already in place adding feeder wires is not a feasible option.
If it turns out that rail joiner connections are an issue I will fill the small gaps with silver filled epoxy which is conductive.
It comes in a needle point syringe for precise application.
I need to purchase that anyway to fix the circuit board on the turn signal switch in my 90 Daytona Shelby.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I can't tell in the photos, but what is holding the point rails to either side, a switch machine underneath ??...


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

wvgca said:


> I can't tell in the photos, but what is holding the point rails to either side, a switch machine underneath ??...



When I first laid the track it was all tested before and after securing it to the platform then I used track nails on the points to hold them in place so they would not move.
Then the throw bar was buried and glued down under all of the ground cover.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

you _may_ have a poor connection either in the rivet area, or maybe where the point rails are supposed to be in tight contact with the stock rails .. no gap should be visible ...maybe a light touch of that conductive epoxy ???


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

wvgca said:


> you _may_ have a poor connection either in the rivet area, or maybe where the point rails are supposed to be in tight contact with the stock rails .. no gap should be visible ...maybe a light touch of that conductive epoxy ???


Next week when I get back I will remove the track nails and possibly dig out (just like real life, build it and dig it up) the throw arms and clean the turnouts of any and all debris being sure the points are in good contact with the main rail and go from there, hopefully with a known good running locomotive.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

NAJ said:


> When I first laid the track it was all tested before and after securing it to the platform then I used track nails on the points to hold them in place so they would not move.
> Then the throw bar was buried and glued down under all of the ground cover.


You will have to remove the nails at the moving ends of the points in order to move the points.

You may also have to dig up the throw bars and loosen them in order to push the points firmly up against the stock rails. I suggest leaving the throw bar unglued -- hold it in place with track nails sticking part way out around the end of the throw bar (not through the bar). That way you can continue to adjust the positions of the nails (and thus the throw bar) until you get your locos running through the turnouts correctly. Once you get to the point where all locos go through the turnout correctly all of the time, in both directions -- for a couple of months, then glue the throw bar in place. Once that is dry remove the nails around the throw bar and re-landscape.

I suggest NOT replacing the nails at the moving ends of the points. (1) They are not necessary. The anchored throw bar will do the job. (2) If you try to replace them, the nails will likely follow the old holes and push the points away from the stock rails again.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> You will have to remove the nails at the moving ends of the points in order to move the points.
> 
> You may also have to dig up the throw bars and loosen them in order to push the points firmly up against the stock rails. I suggest leaving the throw bar unglued -- hold it in place with track nails sticking part way out around the end of the throw bar (not through the bar). That way you can continue to adjust the positions of the nails (and thus the throw bar) until you get your locos running through the turnouts correctly. Once you get to the point where all locos go through the turnout correctly all of the time, in both directions -- for a couple of months, then glue the throw bar in place. Once that is dry remove the nails around the throw bar and re-landscape.
> 
> I suggest NOT replacing the nails at the moving ends of the points. (1) They are not necessary. The anchored throw bar will do the job. (2) If you try to replace them, the nails will likely follow the old holes and push the points away from the stock rails again.


All good advice.
As it turns out none of my loco's run that well(were all tested on my Grandson's track) but I was able to bring home my Grandsons Lifelike NW GP38 that runs Great and Quiet which none of my AHM's are.
Waiting for my NMRA Standards Gauge to arrive and then I will start checking the track, turnouts, for continuity and voltage.
Once I am sure that the track is fine then I will place a locomotive on it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

NAJ said:


> All good advice.
> Waiting for my NMRA Standards Gauge to arrive and then I will start checking the track, turnouts, for continuity and voltage.
> Once I am sure that the track is fine then I will place a locomotive on it.


You're aware that the Standards Gauge is to check physical conformance, right? It doesn't help at all with electrical issues (except being an excellent way to create a temporary short to check your circuit breaker).


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> You're aware that the Standards Gauge is to check physical conformance, right? It doesn't help at all with electrical issues (except being an excellent way to create a temporary short to check your circuit breaker).


Yes I am aware and want to be sure all of the track work is correct.
Electrical continuity and voltages will be checked with a DVOM.

Once that is done I will place my Grandson's loco on the track and run it by itself, then with one car, two cars, etc to see if the original problem of stopping/shutting off after 10 minutes or so is still present.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, the test you mention is a good idea and you
will learn a lot more if you attach a multimeter
set to volts (DC?) and watch it as your test
proceeds (see MtRR post 14). When the loco
pauses, slows, stalls, or whatever, note the headlight
and the meter reading. Both could be clues to
the problem solution.

Don


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

UPDATE;

Did some work on the track and on my AHM "1776" Alco Century.

Removed all debris from the turnouts and inside rails of the mainline.
Used an emery board to clean the inside rails and turnout points where they contact the mainline. 
Then I used a track cleaning eraser on both the tops and insides of the mainline rails, wiped with alcohol, cleaned again and wiped again.

Ran my Grandson's loco on the track for over an hour with no issues, did not hook up any rolling stock.

Yesterday I totally Cleaned and Lubed the AHM loco and tested it on a test track using the 9 volt battery trick I saw posted on this forum... GENIUS!!!

After running my Grandson's loco I put the AHM on the track and away she went, smooth as can be.
She has been running for 1.5 hours as of this posting with no issues.

There are a couple of minor problem connection areas that need to be taken care of and I will do that when the Silver Mixed Epoxy arrives...Monday???


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Cool beans! Good for you!:appl:


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Great!

However, at some time in the future, your loco may start to act up again -- most likely from the track getting dirty. Just re-clean the loco's wheels and the track with alcohol. There should be no need for the track eraser next time.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

time warp said:


> Cool beans! Good for you!:appl:





MtRR75 said:


> Great!
> 
> However, at some time in the future, your loco may start to act up again -- most likely from the track getting dirty. Just re-clean the loco's wheels and the track with alcohol. There should be no need for the track eraser next time.


Thanks


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Problem areas*



NAJ said:


> UPDATE;
> 
> Did some work on the track and on my AHM "1776" Alco Century.
> 
> ...


 NAJ;

The gaps between the point(moving) rails and the stock rails have been problems for many modelers. There are several improvements you can choose from. If the problem is strictly electrical; (loco stalls but does not derail) then soldering jumpers across those gaps will help. The jumpers can be either tiny wires soldered above the layout base on the outside of each rail gap; or below the lay out with larger wire. These later wires can come up through holes drilled near the outside of the rails on either side of the gap.
A less effective, but possibly easier, fix would be tightening the rivets with a gentle tap with a punch and small hammer.
If the train derails at this gap, you may want to check the gauge of the track, and the wheels, with an NMRA gauge.
It is also possible to drill out the rivets and put rail joiners between the rails on either side of each gap. The more reliable, Peco turnouts come with rail joiners instead of rivets. Even with rail joiners, jumper wires are a good idea. You could solder the rail joiners in, but then the typically "wimpy", Atlas switch machine may not be able to throw the points because of the increased drag of moving more rail.
Any soldering on the plastic tied turnout will require heat sinks. The easy type is a wet paper towel set across the track, close to where you will solder.
As for the rail joiner "problem" area, tighten the joiner, solder the joiner, or add jumper wires around the joiner.

Good luck;

Traction Fan


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

traction fan said:


> NAJ;The gaps between the point(moving) rails and the stock rails have been problems for many modelers....
> 
> ...Atlas switch machine may not be able to throw the points because of the increased drag of moving more rail.


If you check back on post #21, you will see that NAJ has no plans to ever move the turnout points. He wants them permanently fixed in the straight position. Unusual, perhaps, but it is his railroad (Rule no. 1). This info my change some of your recommendations. 

I realize that as threads get longer, sometimes we forget (or accidentally overlook) info that the OP posted a while ago. I have fallen into this trap myself several times.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I find it commendable that NAJ was able to consider the solicited advice, and then take the initiative to locate and repair several problems.The experience gained is priceless.


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## FOURTEEN (Feb 16, 2016)

What I picked up from this post, is that altas has two different style switches. I did not know that, the older one the rivets can come loose. Not sure what style I have as they are all packed away. Mine would be about 10-15 years old, when did they change the style?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*My mistake*



MtRR75 said:


> If you check back on post #21, you will see that NAJ has no plans to ever move the turnout points. He wants them permanently fixed in the straight position. Unusual, perhaps, but it is his railroad (Rule no. 1). This info my change some of your recommendations.
> 
> I realize that as threads get longer, sometimes we forget (or accidentally overlook) info that the OP posted a while ago. I have fallen into this trap myself several times.


 MtRR75;

You're right, of course. In this very odd situation, of never moving turnout points; wimpy switch motor would not matter.
He probably doesn't even have a switch machine connected.
On the plus side, he could remove rivets, add rail joiners and solder the joiners in, if he chose to bother. For a static set of points it might be better/easier to solder the straight route point to it's stock rail, and jumper the gap at the point pivot.

Traction Fan


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

Silver Mixed Epoxy arrived.

Used it to seal the problem area contact points and any gaps between pieces of track and it worked extremely well.
Smoothed out transition points on the turnouts where I felt slight resistance when pushing a car through the turnout by hand.
Was able to hook up 4 cars as before when I was having the stopping/shutting down issue and run train for an hour with no issues, loco ran well,(much quieter than before) headlamp does not flicker as before.

One note on the epoxy.
The description stated that the epoxy would cure at room temperature and curing would be accelerated with heat but no where in the specs did it show how long it would take to cure at room temperature.
I contacted the manufacturer and it turns out the description was incorrect, this particular epoxy is a heat cure only.
Without even asking they refunded the full amount of my purchase including the shipping, apologized and said they were going to correct the description immediately.
Then they gave me the part # for a 2 part, room temperature cure conductive epoxy if I still needed it.

The epoxy is like a paste in its uncured form and because of where it is placed on the rails it is not actually touched by the wheels so it may stay in place without an issue, it is doing its job right now.
Unfortunately I can not use it to attempt to repair the circuit board on the turn signal switch in my Daytona.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Sounds like you're getting it figured out! I appreciate the fact that you're posting your work and the results you're getting as you go because I think sometimes there's a lot of assumption when it comes to repairs like this and the methods used to get good results. When it comes to track joints, I use those little black Atlas track nails and sometimes I have to put three or four of them in a row along the inside or outside of a rail joint to push the rail one way or the other to correct a misalignment issue. I do this kind of thing all the time and unless it came up in a conversation I would never remember about it because it is so common to the way I do track work. I also use a riffler file which is a curved ended machinist file to dress the railheads and switch points and so forth as I go. Again this is second nature to me and I don't really even think about it.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

There was one spot that after running for a while pulling a load that the Loco would slow down and you could see it struggle to get past that point.
I used the Silver Mixed Epoxy and placed it between the track joints and pushed it in and smoothed it out with my finger and it corrected the problem so I decided to do this around the entire mainline.
I also had to straighten the point blades on the front turnouts as they were causing derailments.

After completing all of this tonight I ran the train with a four car load (one has 1 1/2 oz of ballast added) and I ran the train for one hour with no slow downs, no stoppage, no derailments and no cars coming uncoupled so I can finally say that after 3 months my small 48" x 72" layout is finished and up and running without any issues.

There are still a few things I would like to add to the layout but finances will not allow that right now.
Next project will be to get the other two Loco's and the Christmas Loco running as well as this one now runs.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I had that problem in a couple of places that would come and go, drove me bats. I finally took the track up and put in new joiners. Fixed it. It would only act up with certain engines though.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

I used all brand new nickle/silver rail joiners when I started the layout and made sure they were a nice tight fit, obviously as the track was nailed down and expansion and contraction caused some connection issues.
Removing the track would mean starting over, as long as this Silver Mixed Conductive Epoxy continues to work to correct poor connections I will continue to use it use it and the fact that it will not cure makes it ideal for our Christmas layout that has to come apart in the middle to be stored so we expect connection issues with the track that has to be able to be removed to separate the two halves of the platform.

I will keep everybody posted on how well it continues to work as time goes by.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

NAJ said:


> Hello,
> 1)AHM Jersey Central Alco Century 424 that needed to be cleaned and lubed and now the motor runs fine but the Loco will not stay on the track, when it encounters any little imperfection in the track it derails, especially at the turnouts, it either derails or wants to follow the curve into the yard even though the turnout is locked in place to follow the mainline.


Finally finished redoing the clean and lube and found out why the Jersey Central would constantly derail...
One of the wheels on one of the front axles was bent, fixed that and the loco is running like a champ and is now the main loco on the layout which is what I wanted.

Next up for a teardown/clean and lube is the AHM GP 18 Union Pacific.
This loco is not set up like the two Alco 424's but luckily there is a 48 minute video on YouTube showing step by step how to clean and lube the AHM GP 18.

Even though only one will be running I want them all to be able to run like new if I ever choose to change it up.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Way to go, NAJ! I don't like to have engines sitting around that can't be used. I've been working through my own actually, to make sure they all are up and running. That's why I don't have dummy engines. I want them to be able to earn their keep!
It's a good feeling when you can solve pesky problems like you've faced.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

time warp said:


> Way to go, NAJ! I don't like to have engines sitting around that can't be used. I've been working through my own actually, to make sure they all are up and running. That's why I don't have dummy engines. I want them to be able to earn their keep!
> It's a good feeling when you can solve pesky problems like you've faced.


Thanks, it did feel good to see it run and pull cars behind it with absolutely no issues.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

NAJ said:


> Even though only one will be running I want them all to be able to run like new if I ever choose to change it up.


Of course... Trains that don't run are no fun. It's a challenge.

Congratulations.


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