# Using a double slip switch in a reverse loop.



## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

I really hope someone here can help me as I am at my wits end trying to figure this out.
On my layout, I have a reverse loop, that circles the bottom end of my layout and comes back into a terminal. There is also a maintenance and storage yard and all of the sidings come off the reverse loop. I also have another loop which goes in the opposite direction and joins the first loop at the far end. How I have a double slip switch at the inbound end of both loops, with one side going out to the rest of my layout.
I have been trying for 3 weeks to make this work and I can't. I don't know what is wrong. I have been following many wiring diagrams, but have had no luck at all. I can get power to part of the loop in one direction, but not the other. And by changing the points on the slip, I get power to the secondary loop in both directions, but not to the terminal or maintenance tracks. I have three other reverse loops on other parts of my layout, and I have tried connecting this loop identically to the others, but it just won't work.

Additional Information:
I am running z scale trains.
I am using DC power only.
All the turnouts on this part of my layout are manual control only
All turnout are Rokuhan and are set for Power Routing

I guess one very important question is, can I use a double slip switch to operate a reverse loop? I have installed isolation blocks at both ends of the main reverse loop but still I get no power across the slip switch, and I can't go from one reverse loop to the other through the slip without stalling on the frog in both directions.

Can anyone here help me figure this out? I have pictures that I can send to whomever can grasp my problem. Is anyone here familiar with Rokuhan turnouts? If I go on much longer, I'm going to have to commit myself to an institution because this is driving around the bend.

Thanks


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Sorry for the spelling mistakes. Rented fingers.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Unfortunately, you're likely to find little help here due to the rarity of your scale. However, electrified tracks is electrified tracks, and we can figure out what may be the problem...BUTTT...we need to see EXACTLY what you have. We need you to make a digital copy of your diagramme, place it on a host site like railimages.com, or flikr, or whatever site you prefer, and then post a direct link to the image using the coding that goes [ img ], but with no spaces, and the / before img in the closing code. 

Once we can all study EXACTLY what you have (including any changes or mistakes) we can begin to parse your electrical problems. So, please do post that image or series of them, but also explain any modifications extant.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

I can't do that because I don't have access to those links, however, I try to post them here as attachments.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Or take a picture of the diagram or actual layout and just use the forums paper clip to post the image - its a lot easier! first think I would try is to disable the reverse loop and see if the double slip switch works. At least isolate this down to one or two things before you connect if all together!


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Here are some pics of this part of my layout. The cards indicate certain aspects of my loops and the points of contention.
Since I can only post 10 pics at a time, I will have to post the remainder in a separate reply.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, some turnouts don't transmit power through them but have to be specifically powered with a fed wire set to them alone.

Second, you have not explained what happens, at least not well enough to diagnose it. 

Third, if you have done this successfully with three other loops them you know what makes it work. I would suggest reconfiguring temprarily back to a loop without sidings, etc. and see if you can make this loop work like that. Once that is done, add back into it, one at a time, each item you have on it that is not similarly on those other, working loops, until you find the one that makes if fail. At that point, well, you have to figure out how to make that work . . . that is how I would do it.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Here are the last three pics. Don't know if they will help.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

If you are not familiar with Rokuhan turnouts, they have a feature that is called Power Routing. Power is directed by the points. If the points are facing one way, power is cut off to the other track which makes wiring a lot easier for sidetracks when the power is going to the main, the side tracks are dead. and vice-versa. Also Rokuhan turnouts can be operated both manually and electrically as both capabilities contained in the turnout. I operate mine manually


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

A quick glance seems to show just the one revers loop. Take out a section of that track (which will disable the reverse loop and see if you can get every thing working, then you only have the reverse loop problem to solve and not a double problem. I don't know how you "solved" the other reverse loops on your layout but this on may take an annoying double pole double throw toggle switch on that isolated curve, and some lights to help you decide if you need to throw the toggle.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

If you look at the upper left or spot 4 in the picture, this is the beginning of the second loop. This continues all around this section of layout until it gets to the top of the first loop where they join up. This forms loop that is continuous and runs through the slip switch. This is a dedicated line for certain trains. I did at one point disconnect tracks at spot 4, but this had no effect. If you are not familiar with slip switches, the points determine where the power is going. It's like having two regular turnouts back to back only in this case, the points work in unison to determine direction.
To be fair, when I first installed this 3 weeks ago, I did have it working through the manipulation of the toggles on the Atlas Twin which I have installed on my other three loops. BTW, the track where the power feed is connected to at spot 1, goes back to the left across a bridge and connects to the rest of the layout which is behind the camera.
In the beginning, I installed this slip switch the same way as I did with the other three loops, but for some reason it won't work. I'm wondering now if these slip switches operate in the same fashion for reverse loops.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

What we need is a picture or drawing that shows
the complete layout. You can draw the layout, take
a picture of that and post that picture...be sure it's
large enuf that we can make out the details. We can
then do an analysis by redrawing using RED for right
rail, BLACK for left rail. This automatically shows where
gaps or insulated joiners would go. It also would
show where you need track drops.

Your scale is no different from HO or H as to the
electrical system...it's 2 rail...DC. However, the
turnout electrical systems will matter. Are the
frogs insulated or powered? How do you
plan to 'control' your 'reverse loop' electrically?

Don


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I assume you have a control panel somewhere which contains switches that you use to set the direction of the power through your reverse loop? You probably can't use the power routing to control the reverse loop, it will just short itself out. You need a DPDT switch to control the DC power in the reverse loop, then when the train is within the loop you reverse the direction of the mainline so when the train exits the loop it will find matching power on the mainline. I don't think you'll be able t automate the reverse-loop power with the power-routing feature of the points.

For the additional siding coming off of the slip switch, you need to wire that to your mainline, the reverse loop, or use another power switch to give it its own power source, and likely use another pair of plastic rail joiners for that. The way I see it, you would have the mainline supplying power to the slip switch, but all six rails of the other three legs of the switch should be insulated. With this setup it might work with power-routing enabled (if that is what supplies power to the frogs). Otherwise how is the manual control of the turnouts set up? Is there a control somewhere that you could mount a SPDT lever switch next to so that you could feed power to the frog based on the position of the point control? To get this to work smoothly you will most likely have to rig up something to provide your own power to those frogs.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Can we distinguish whether you are talking about a "turnback loop" or a true reversing loop, where the track departs one leg of a turnout and comes back in by the other? I agree with Don -- we reallycan'tsolvethis puzzle without a comprehensive layout diagram which shows where each feeder is connected.

We need to know how you control the polarity if your reversing loops, as well as the characteristics of your turnouts and slip switches -- insulated, isolated, or live frogs, and whether they are power routing or not.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

It's a bit hard to make out the track plan; trying to piece it out from the photos.

However I wills state one thing un-equivocally:

The double-slip will basically be irrelevant to the reversing loop. You need to completely isolate and control the loop past any switches leading to it. 

You can of course create all sorts of other issues with power-routing switches themselves not specifically relating to a reversing loop that may require a whole bunch of other isolating gaps.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

OK, piecing together the photos, this is the only track connection that I see in the photos that is creating a reversing loop. No other track connection creating a reversing segment and if you delete this you just have a simple oval with tracks coming off into the middle. This track segment needs to be isolated. The slip isn't remotely involved at all.









I don't know what section(s) of the layout you've actually isolated for use as your reversing loop, which could be a problem (or not).

Your key issue is the selective power-routing turnouts. You said yourself you only have power to certain sections when certain switches are set a certain way - that's exactly what selective turnouts are designed to do. Selective routing turnouts will also cause short circuits when they are installed with frogs facing each other, unless the rails are gapped and isolated. You need to be really careful about where power feeds are located and where insulating gaps are located when you're using selective power-routing turnouts.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> If you are not familiar with Rokuhan turnouts, they have a feature that is called Power Routing. Power is directed by the points. If the points are facing one way, power is cut off to the other track which makes wiring a lot easier for sidetracks when the power is going to the main, the side tracks are dead. and vice-versa.


Technically (and this is IMPORTANT, not just semantics) the side track isn't "dead" at all but both rails are the same polarity, so they don't complete a circuit. This can and will cause short circuits when you have two turnouts facing each other and you don't insulate the frog rail(s). Depending on which direction both turnouts are thrown, the layout will function or dead-short.

If your slip switch is selective power-routing, you need insulating gaps on the frog on the left side in between the slip switch and the marked power pack connection, or throwing the switch one way will short out (you can't feed power into the frog end of a selective routing turnout). I can't tell if those are insulated joiners, but I suspect not:


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

I'm going to grossly oversimplify your layout by eliminating all the spurs. basically I think you have this:








If that's the case and I wanted a reversing loop I'd cut the layout halfway across all the loops thus:








and wire both upper and lower half to separate direction switches. When the train is on one half you can switch the other half any time you want.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

The knowledgeable ones here will probably agree that your slip switch being 'power routing' is the main factor in your dilemma...If, IF it were "All live", where the frog is isolated from the 4 rails that converge at it, the way Atlas HO Custom Line switches are and the way Walthers switches became eventually, due to the advent of DCC, you might not be incurring the problem you're having.
It's the 'power routing' feature I'm sure you now know, that is the dominating factor in your circuitry problems...
I certainly can't help you other than perhaps suggesting you take it out, cut your losses, and build something without the slip switch involved within a reversing loop..Have instead the the slip within say a yard throat where the 1:1 scale usually employ(ed) them, routing trains inbound and outbound to/from a large terminal or large classification yard...
I think you'd be happier giving up the complexity you've given yourself and creating something minus such headaches. Maybe just say 'que sera sera', and begin anew.
Perhaps it's the old 'less is more'...


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Murv2 said:


> If that's the case and I wanted a reversing loop I'd cut the layout halfway across all the loops thus:
> View attachment 564456
> 
> and wire both upper and lower half to separate direction switches. When the train is on one half you can switch the other half any time you want.



Sorry, but no. Don't split the outer loop, just isolate the connecting track inside the loop. And the tracks to the "maintenance yard" don't connect back, so really once you strip away all the spurs it's just a classic oval with a reversing connection across the middle.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

why don't you draw a track diagram and post a picture of it?


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> What we need is a picture or drawing that shows
> the complete layout. You can draw the layout, take
> a picture of that and post that picture...be sure it's
> large enuf that we can make out the details. We can
> ...


Don thanks for that. I will send a picture of this part of my layout. My entire layout takes up my whole basement and these two modules where I have the reverse loops set up are the end of my layout. So I will just send pictures of this part. As far as the turnouts are concerned, In Rokuhan turnouts, they have a feature called power routing. The direction of the power is determined by the position of the points, but if I understand how they work, I do not believe the frog itself is powered. To get a more detailed understanding of these turnouts you need to Google Rokuhan turnouts, and you will find information on how they work.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

telltale said:


> The knowledgeable ones here will probably agree that your slip switch being 'power routing' is the main factor in your dilemma...If, IF it were "All live", where the frog is isolated from the 4 rails that converge at it, the way Atlas HO Custom Line switches are and the way Walthers switches became eventually, due to the advent of DCC, you might not be incurring the problem you're having.
> It's the 'power routing' feature I'm sure you now know, that is the dominating factor in your circuitry problems...
> I certainly can't help you other than perhaps suggesting you take it out, cut your losses, and build something without the slip switch involved within a reversing loop..Have instead the the slip within say a yard throat where the 1:1 scale usually employ(ed) them, routing trains inbound and outbound to/from a large terminal or large classification yard...
> I think you'd be happier giving up the complexity you've given yourself and creating something minus such headaches. Maybe just say 'que sera sera', and begin anew.
> Perhaps it's the old 'less is more'...


OK, I think I have a handle on what everyone here is saying. I'm going to respond to all the questions raised here all at once so you all can find your answers for the most part here.
1. The slip switch is divided in half, in essence they are a left and right turnout joined together as one unit. From what I can see, there is an isolator of sorts separating both have. Each side has it's own points, but when you manipulate the switch, the points work together not independently. Since I installed this switch I've had doubts as to whether I could use it for a reverse loop. I have contacted Rokuhan, but they have been less then helpful in advising me about my problem. How typical.
I have DTDP switches (Atlas Twin) mounted on the side of the module and the power pack is on a table directly underneath. I am using a Rokuhan pack because all the others on the market right now, including Marklin supply just too much power to operate the turnouts and will burnt out the calanoids even in manual mode.
In the beginning I had the tracks blocked at spots 2 and 3 as would be done as in a regular loop. The loop at spot 4 was removed from both ends. But this didn't accomplish anything.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

After reading all the responses and suggestions about my situation, I am thinking that I may just removed the slip switch altogether and installed regular turnouts. This will mean re-vamping the lower left section of my layout but the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to wonder if I should have done this at the start.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I assume you have a control panel somewhere which contains switches that you use to set the direction of the power through your reverse loop? You probably can't use the power routing to control the reverse loop, it will just short itself out. You need a DPDT switch to control the DC power in the reverse loop, then when the train is within the loop you reverse the direction of the mainline so when the train exits the loop it will find matching power on the mainline. I don't think you'll be able t automate the reverse-loop power with the power-routing feature of the points.
> 
> For the additional siding coming off of the slip switch, you need to wire that to your mainline, the reverse loop, or use another power switch to give it its own power source, and likely use another pair of plastic rail joiners for that. The way I see it, you would have the mainline supplying power to the slip switch, but all six rails of the other three legs of the switch should be insulated. With this setup it might work with power-routing enabled (if that is what supplies power to the frogs). Otherwise how is the manual control of the turnouts set up? Is there a control somewhere that you could mount a SPDT lever switch next to so that you could feed power to the frog based on the position of the point control? To get this to work smoothly you will most likely have to rig up something to provide your own power to those frogs.


I have been considering using a second power pack to operate the second loop and isolate it at both ends so it doesn't interfere with the first loop.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Can we distinguish whether you are talking about a "turnback loop" or a true reversing loop, where the track departs one leg of a turnout and comes back in by the other? I agree with Don -- we reallycan'tsolvethis puzzle without a comprehensive layout diagram which shows where each feeder is connected.
> 
> We need to know how you control the polarity if your reversing loops, as well as the characteristics of your turnouts and slip switches -- insulated, isolated, or live frogs, and whether they are power routing or not.


I suppose it would be safe to say that the second loop could be considered as a turnback loop, since it circles around behind the maintenance yard from spot 4, and proceeds down the back of the layout going from left to right, and joins the first loop at the far end. By the way, I only have one feeder connection just before spot 1 on the slip switch which supplies the power to the main line running back to the rest of the layout to the left off camera. For clarification purposes, this track is not powered by the source that powers the rest of my layout. The sections in question are power independently


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Someone here suggested that I examine the reverse loops I already have and hook this one up in the same fashion. I have done that, but still I am having mega problems.

At this point, I want to mention that when I first installed these loops, I had them working in all directions as I envisioned just by moving the direction control toggles, but what I didn't do was make a written note of how they were positioned so everything was working. This clearly was an oversight on my part, which I am very upset about. I don't remember now how I did it. 

It has taken me 15 years to build my layout from scratch. I have 18 modules built and two lift bridges that span walkways. Yes I've run into a few problems along the way, but I have always been able to solve them. But this situation has got me so damned depressed, that I feel like chucking the whole lot and just throwing in the towel. If I can't get this reverse loop problem solved, then I will have failed in completing my dream layout. 

When I first got into model railroading, someone told me that it is a fun hobby. I agreed it was, when everything worked perfectly. But when a situation like this comes up, it is anything but fun. In fact, it can be down right frustrating, and I lften regret starting this layout in the first place.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

As requested, I have taken photos of the part of my layout where I am having trouble with. Please note, these show then entire assembled sections. The first eight are taken from the left end of these sections. The rest from the front.

1. Shows the sections from where I am standing to the end at the wall.
2. Shows the inbound/outbound track coming in across bridge from rest of layout in distance. Power does not connect from one to the other. Power to this section is independent.
3. Shows the double slip switch up close. Powered inbound track is to the lower left.
4. Shows the passenger terminal and maintenance yard. Inbound track to the right past the slip switch.
5. Shows the inbound track as it goes down the right side or front of layout, loops around behind terminal and then comes up the back side into the terminal tracks. Long passenger trains must exit through the slip switch and then back into the terminal, or be broken and then back in. Either way, the power direction must be going out to accomplish this. Power of inbound track before slip must be set to outbound while train is within loop.
6. Shows the second reverse loop or turn around loop, coming from slip around behind maintenance yard and proceeding down the back of bench to connect to first loop at the end on the left at the wall. Power of first loop must be set to opposite direction as inbound. It is now outbound. Trains using this loop come from the terminal and pass through the slip to the turn around loop so power is set to outbound until train clears the slip switch, then power reversed.
7. Shows the second, or turn around loop more clearly. Maintenance tracks in foreground come off the secondary loop but get power from first loop. 
8. Shows where turn around loop, joins first reverse loop.
9. Shows Atlas Twin that is supposed to change direction of the reverse loop. Rokuhan power pack is also shown. Theoretically, the right side of the Twin connects to the power feed ahead or left of the slip switch while the left side connects to the loops to the right below the yard tracks above.
10. Shows the wall end of this part of layout. Note the two off tracks in the fore and back grounds. These are there to accommodate future expansion if any. Also note where this loop joins the secondary loop.
The way I had it configured initially was blocks on the reverse loop ahead of the turnout immediately after the slip switch to the right and again after the last turnout for the passenger terminal before the slip.

Refer to next message for remainder of pictures and explanation.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

11. Shows the entire loop except for the extreme right end. Note the diagonal tracks for terminal and maintenance. facilities. The yellow selector switch was for power to tracks at industrial buildings, but I found them to be redundant, so they will be removed.
12. This picture gives an overview of rest of layout as it fills my basement. Note that all of this is powered independently of the troubled sections.
13. Shows the lift bridge as it comes from main layout to last two modules. The track is cut at the join allowing the bridge to be lowered or raised without interfering with the power. Modules to right of camera, are powered independently.

As I have already stated, I suspect that I will have to power the second loop by itself. What do you think?
One more thing. I don't have the space to make major changes in the configuration of the track. I wanted to have this whole thing complete by the end of this year and I can't move forward until this problem is resolved and I still have a great deal of work to do.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I have looked, and studied, and gone from this to that photo...but
the photos are too disconnected for me to be able to even see
how the loop is joined to the rest of the layout clear enough to
be able to analyze and suggest a solution to your problem.
A drawing of the layout section showing how it connects to
the rest of the layout is still necessary. You can simply ignore
any short STUB tracks that do not otherwise have a layout connection
but do show all turnouts involved.

Power routing turnouts do just that...they route the frog rail
power to either straight thru or divert tracks. If set to straight, power
is cut to divert frog rail. If you need power 'always on'
you must install frog rail track drops to your bus. (NOTE: the two
frog rails are of different polarity) It's not material 
whether or not the frog is powered. Unless needed to create an
isolated 'reverse loop' section, no insulated joiners or gaps are required.

Don


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> I have looked, and studied, and gone from this to that photo...but
> the photos are too disconnected for me to be able to even see
> how the loop is joined to the rest of the layout clear enough to
> be able to analyze and suggest a solution to your problem.
> ...


Don: you are confusing me.
I'll see what I can do about a drawing but in the meantime, the reverse loop begins at the right lower end of the slip switch or spot 2 and circles the layout back to the upper right of the layout or spot 3. The second loop, begins at spot 4 and loops around behind the maintenance yard and joins up with the first loop near the terminal building at the far end.
As for the drawing, tell me what you need included in it and I'll try to come up with something.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You'll never get this sorted out unless we see a complete drawing of your layout.

Why is this so difficult?


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> You'll never get this sorted out unless we see a complete drawing of your layout.
> 
> Why is this so difficult?


I just want to be clear as to what you are looking for. I'm working on it now.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

OK Mike:

Here is a diagram of this part of my layout. I have not indicated where blocks should be. The slip switch is at the bottom and the 4 spots are indicated as such. I hope this helps.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Sorry, I forgot to send this with my last response.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Echo31 said:


> I just want to be clear as to what you are looking for. I'm working on it now.


What we're looking for ?! It's what YOU are looking for, sir !

Anyway,
here's my final input in this too long thread now, attended to by some way more savvy than I:

From your drawing it looks as if you can replace the double slip with a simple 45-ish Deg. crossing..
(You do admit to the idea of removing it, in post #24 [as I'd suggested doing]).
Then, by the looks of your drawing, you'd now have a choice as to which way you will traverse it,
via those switches in the upper right...(seemingly accomplishing the same thing as the d-slip would have, less the polarity problem) ...


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

telltale said:


> What we're looking for ?! It's what YOU are looking for, sir !
> 
> Anyway,
> here's my final input in this too long thread now, attended to by ones way more accomplished than I:
> ...


Yes I have thought about replacing the double slip with two regular turnouts, But I didn't consider the 45 degree crossing. I need to think on this some more.
Thanks


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

OK...your drawing seems to be very clear.
You actually have a large 'oval' with a track
connecting the slip switch to a turnout in the upper right.
That track (including any spurs connected
to it) should be your isolated section with
special polarity reversing switches feeding it. 

Gap the rails above 'slipswitch' and again Before
the turnout in upper right.

From this drawing I see no reason for
the 'slipswitch' to be replaced. It is, I understand,
power routing, but that won't affect the 'isolated
section'. 

I am a little confused by the your term 'slip switch'...is it
actually a 'double crossover'? A 'slip switch' is normally
thought of as a complex turnout that is between 3 or more tracks,
often in a large passenger terminal, that can be set to
pass trains from track 1 THROUGH track 2 TO track three. That
doesn't appear to be what your turnout does.

Don

Don


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Slip switch is apparently a hobby term, I didn't know what it was until I saw an old one. 
Anyway, seems to me that if you isolate the common track between the two reversing loops you shouldn't have to isolate anything else. Insulate both rails above the R in terminal and just beyond track number 3 from the slip switch, with separate direction controls for both the main and terminal block and you'll be able to use either reverse loop in either direction.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

OK. One more:
*Wikipedia* "Railroad Switch"..It has quite a treatise on all the types, with 'slip switch' down the list...


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Thanks all for this info. Don, if it isn't too much trouble, could you send me a diagram of what you are proposing? I think I understand it, but I want to be absolutely clear on what I'm doing so I don't end up with the same problem.

FYI I don't know where the term slip switch came from. The first time I cam across it was when dealing with Marklin track, I think they were the first company to introduce it. The Rokuhan produced one which is a direct copy of Marklin's slip, but they added a roadbed and the Power Routing feature which Marklin doesn't have apparently.

One more point I want to make here:
It seems that someone here is quite upset with this thread and how lengthy it has become. My response to that is "How unfortunate". I am in trouble here and I need to get as much info as possible to solve this problem. If I were part of a club where I could get solutions from fellow members, I would not even bother anyone here. But I'm not, I work alone. I have no-one anywhere to turn to in order to get questions answered and advice. If you were in the same situation, you'd want the same thing and if it took a lengthy thread in this or any other venue to solve you're problem then you'd take it. 

The overall point here is, I am by no means an expert in this hobby. I started 15 years ago with just a table top oval and it grew to a layout that now spans my entire basement (40ft. x 18ft) and although it has been rewarding at times, it has cost me a great deal of money, time, headaches and a marriage. These last two modules on which this whole problem exists, are the culmination of 15 years of work. This is my dream and it is part of my bucket list to have this completed by Dec. 31 this year. I don't want to die leaving this unfinished.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Echo31 said:


> Yes I have thought about replacing the double slip with two regular turnouts, But I didn't consider the 45 degree crossing. I need to think on this some more.
> Thanks


 A 45 degree crossing is not a replacement for a slip switch, at least, not without a significant loss of options. A crossing only lets trains continue straight through on their original route. A slip switch lets trains be routed to either departing route (a single slip lets only one incoming leg do this; a double lets both legs do it). It's a complicated piece of track.

I think we have our answer now, though. Assuming that there are no issues in the unseen / undiagramed part of the layout (which may be a bad assumption), isolate the track that connects diagonally across the center and power it separately. If you're using DC, you will have to manually adjust track polarity of the isolated section to match that of an approaching train, or you will short the layout.

The test is as follows: put your finger on one rail and follow the routes around the layout. If you ever come back to that same section of track with your finger on the opposite rail, you have a reversing loop somewhere. If not, yiu only have turnbuckle loops, and that's not an issue for polarity. Obviously, this test is much easier to perform on a diagram than on a full-sized layout.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> A 45 degree crossing is not a replacement for a slip switch, at least, not without a significant loss of options. A crossing only lets trains continue straight through on their original route. A slip switch lets trains be routed to either departing route (a single slip lets only one incoming leg do this; a double lets both legs do it). It's a complicated piece of track.
> 
> I think we have our answer now, though. Assuming that there are no issues in the unseen / undiagramed part of the layout (which may be a bad assumption), isolate the track that connects diagonally across the center and power it separately. If you're using DC, you will have to manually adjust track polarity of the isolated section to match that of an approaching train, or you will short the layout.
> 
> The test is as follows: put your finger on one rail and follow the routes around the layout. If you ever come back to that same section of track with your finger on the opposite rail, you have a reversing loop somewhere. If not, yiu only have turnbuckle loops, and that's not an issue for polarity. Obviously, this test is much easier to perform on a diagram than on a full-sized layout.


Thanks


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Echo31 said:


> One more point I want to make here:
> It seems that someone here is quite upset with this thread and how lengthy it has become. My response to that is "How unfortunate". I am in trouble here and I need to get as much info as possible to solve this problem. If I were part of a club where I could get solutions from fellow members, I would not even bother anyone here. But I'm not, I work alone. I have no-one anywhere to turn to in order to get questions answered and advice. If you were in the same situation, you'd want the same thing and if it took a lengthy thread in this or any other venue to solve you're problem then you'd take it.


Don't let it bother you. This isn't really an issue and you certainly don't owe anyone an explanation for it. Some people are, well jerks, to be polite. You can't change them, so just ignore them. If you constantly have trouble with one member, you can permanently ignore ALL content from that person. Since I can't see the offending comment, I'm assuming it came from someone I am permanently ignoring... and that should tell you why.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Don't let it bother you. This isn't really an issue and you certainly don't owe anyone an explanation for it. Some people are, well jerks, to be polite. You can't change them, so just ignore them. If you constantly have trouble with one member, you can permanently ignore ALL content from that person. Since I can't see the offending comment, I'm assuming it came from someone I am permanently ignoring... and that should tell you why.


Thanks. I've dealt with people like that before on much more important issues. I always challenge them to come to my home and tell me to my face and take their chances. It's not likely they would have anything to say to me after that.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I didn't see the comment either but I know who the jerk is too.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Not to make a long story longer, I will keep the crossing as a backup plan. I can only get 15 degree crossings from both Marklin and Rohukan, but I'm convinced that I could make such a crossing work, but I would need to make significant modifications to my layout at that point. Plus there is the isolation issue. 
Mike, at your convenience, could you please send me a diagram of what you are talking about. I don't want to go off in the wrong direction here. (no pun intended). I want to be crystal clear of what to do before I start ripping things out.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

echo

Sorry that I'm lost in the jungles of yesteryear..don't
have a smart phone and my last digital camera went
to visit his departed Kodak cousins. So the best
I can do is try to write clear instructions based on your
layout drawing.

You show the 'double slip' with tracks 1=2=3=4...3 is connected
to a track that goes to upper right turnout that is near a
label 'future exp'. This track from double slip 3 to the
upper right turnout is what creates your reverse loop and
must be isolated by simply cutting a gap in both rails just after slip 3
and just before the upper right turnout. This section and any stub tracks connected to it must be powered thru the DPDT switch
system that matches polarity to your main tracks. There
is no need to rip out anything but you may have to make
sure of your wiring per these instructions.

The forum is here to provide a friendly atmosphere where
members can help each other when a problem arises. So,
please do continue to ask when you need a more clear answer.
There is no need to limit your posts.
Actually, we really do enjoy these chats and always look
forward to an opportunity to help.

Don


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

CTValleyRR said:


> Don't let it bother you. This isn't really an issue and you certainly don't owe anyone an explanation for it. Some people are, well jerks, to be polite. You can't change them, so just ignore them. If you constantly have trouble with one member, you can permanently ignore ALL content from that person. Since I can't see the offending comment, I'm assuming it came from someone I am permanently ignoring... and that should tell you why.


If I'm permanently on your ignore list then why don't you keep it that way !! I knew it was too good to be true !! But you just couldn't wait any longer...You just never miss an opportunity to search out and bully someone, do you, oh mighty, all knowing, flawless one that you so believe you are...


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Don:

Thank you for this. From your description and looking at my diagram, it would seem that I only have a very short section as a reverse loop. It would also appear that I have to power all terminal and maintenance tracks independently. Not what I was hopping for, but if that's the way it needs to be then it will be. However, the one question that remains unanswered is what about the track that goes from 4, looping around behind the maintenance yard back to the turnout at the upper right. I wanted this to be a continuous loop from 4 back around to spot 2, through the slip and on and on and on. Trains on this loop will never go through spot 1 unless that section is used to stop and reverse the train into the terminal.

In case it isn't evident from my diagram, all terminal tracks except for the two at the very bottom and one at the top of the ladder, will pass through the slip switch at spot 3 and proceed to 1 and beyond. The other 3 terminal tracks will leave the terminal, pass through the slip at spot 3, through 4 and back around again in a continuous loop. These trains will NOT pass through the slip to spot 1.

In any case, I will make the necessary adjustments to my existing track and try that. I hope this works. I'm just about ready to call the men in the white suits and rubber truck.

Again, thanks.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Echo31 said:


> Thanks. I've dealt with people like that before on much more important issues. I always challenge them to come to my home and tell me to my face and take their chances. It's not likely they would have anything to say to me after that.


If I'm right about the identity of the troll, challenging him won't help. There's an expression that goes, "Don't feed the Troll, it only makes him want more." Ignoring him / them is the best policy.

And to echo what Don said, if you're honestly trying to come to grips with a new concept, helpful members (the vast majority of us) don't mind you taking the time to get it right.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

With all of your terminal, industry, maintenance spurs plus the track
to rest of layout through
the 'slip' turnout I can understand the confusion...but when
you cut away those spurs (as you have done in your drawing)
you can easily see the 'continuous run' 'oval' around the
terminal and maintenance areas...it does go through the
'slip' turnout if that is so set. 

You can 'trace' the 'oval'...put your finger on 'slip' 4 then run it
up past the maintenance thru 3 (or more if not shown) turnouts then around the terminal, down and
back to 'slip' 2...it's just a complicated version of the circle track
under the Christmas tree.

Again, any spur tracks connected to the 'isolated section'
that is the 'reverse loop' must be fed by the 'isolated section'
wire from your DPDT switch circuit. All other tracks on your
layout would be fed by your master DC power pack or
block system (if you have that)

I'm anxious to hear how it works for you.

Don


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> After reading all the responses and suggestions about my situation, I am thinking that I may just removed the slip switch altogether and installed regular turnouts. This will mean re-vamping the lower left section of my layout but the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to wonder if I should have done this at the start.


That won't solve the problem; if you replace the power-routing slip switch with 2 power-routing regular switches you still have the same problem because you haven't address the real issue of feeing power into the wrong end of the switch.

Please see post #17 on page 1 of this thread. Your power connection is in the wrong place and you're feeing power into the frog of the slip switch on the left-hand side. You can't do that with power-routing switches. It WILL short out of the switch is thrown the other way. You need to have power feeds on the "stock" (outside) rails of the switch and put insulated gaps just past the frog(s) to protect it from power being fed in from that direction.

You can't run your whole layout off just these two power connections when all these switches are selective power routing:


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

I have been doing some reading and research and I've come to the conclusion that if I can't make this reverse loop work with this double slip like Don has suggested, then I'm going to replace the slip with at 13 degree crossing track. From what I have read, I could send 2 separate trains through this crossing as long as both tracks are powered independently which mean I will need another power source. I've drawn it out on paper and with 4 or possibly 5 blocks, I may be able to pull it off. I will also need at least 4 additional left and right turnouts and I will have to re-align the lower 4 tracks of my terminal so that they exit onto the correct track.

But first I will try Don's suggestion.

This whole thing has made me seriously question why I got into this hobby in the first place.


DonR said:


> With all of your terminal, industry, maintenance spurs plus the track
> to rest of layout through
> the 'slip' turnout I can understand the confusion...but when
> you cut away those spurs (as you have done in your drawing)
> ...


Hi Don.
I started working on your suggestion yesterday but I didn't get very far. I made one significant discovery though. I seems that no matter which loop I use, and in which direction the trains go, that turnout in the upper back right ccorner of the terminal loop seems to control it all. Most interesting. I started working with it, and through the manipulation of the DPDT switches or Atlas Twin, changing the direction of the power pack, and moving the point on the double slip from one position to the other, I found that I could accomplish everything I was trying to so in the first place. And I found that by changing the points on that turnout, I could get a train to make that continuous loop through the slip and around. Of course the DPDT switches and the direction control on the power pack have to be set accordingly, but sit worked. Likewise the terminal loop with the trains coming in from the left through 1 and going around back to 3. The key seems to be that turnout in the upper right rear corner. For clarification, that is NOT the turnout that would be allowing future expansion. It's the one right next door to it. I don't know why it's happening this way, All I know is it works and I didn't have to isolate any tracks. I tested my loco in all directions and just moving DPDT and that turnout, I got the results I wanted. The only thing I didn't get to do yesterday was test the trains backing into the terminal tracks.
I had to take myself to urgent care yesterday. I started having chest pains and felt really lousy. So I had to leave everything.
Now that I'm home again, I'm going to get back at it again once I feel up to it. Perhaps, I have stumbled across the solution to my problem. I will have to write it all down so I remember what positions various switches, points and directional levers are in. If I can remember what I did yesterday.

PLEASE OH MIGHTY TRAIN FAIRY, MAKE IT WORK!


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Wire your power-routing slip switch:


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Post #17, 53, and 55 apply to ALL your power-routing switches around the main loop, not just the slip switch...

Naturally the reversing track through the middle also needs to be fully isolated, but even without a reversing track you are having issues with power-routing switches. You MUST isolate the frogs properly and feed power to the outside rails. You will end up needing more power connections than just the two shown on the diagram...


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> Post #17, 53, and 55 apply to ALL your power-routing switches around the main loop, not just the slip switch...
> 
> Naturally the reversing track through the middle also needs to be fully isolated, but even without a reversing track you are having issues with power-routing switches. You MUST isolate the frogs properly and feed power to the outside rails. You will end up needing more power connections than just the two shown on the diagram...


I see where you are going with this. There is just one snag. Unlike other gauges where there is one common rail, Z scale does not use this method. One rail is positive and the other is negative. It has to be that way in order for z scale engines to function.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Echo31 said:


> I see where you are going with this. There is just one snag. Unlike other gauges where there is one common rail, Z scale does not use this method. One rail is positive and the other is negative. It has to be that way in order for z scale engines to function.


If I use what you suggest, I will have no power anywhere except on the feeder track coming in from the lower left before 1.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> I see where you are going with this. There is just one snag. Unlike other gauges where there is one common rail, Z scale does not use this method. One rail is positive and the other is negative. It has to be that way in order for z scale engines to function.


Who said anything about this being specific to common-rail wiring?

And HO, N scale layouts are not all necessarily done with common rail, and Z scale isn't particularly special. Any 2-rail train or layout pretty much works the same, so I do not think you are correct on your point here.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> If I use what you suggest, I will have no power anywhere except on the feeder track coming in from the lower left before 1.


That's why I told you you will need to add additional power feeders around your loop from your power supply. These issues you're having of "it works if a certain combination of switches are turned a certain way" are absolutely what happens when you use power routing switches and don't insulate the frogs properly.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> Who said anything about this being specific to common-rail wiring?
> 
> And HO, N scale layouts are not all necessarily done with common rail, and Z scale isn't particularly special. Any 2-rail train or layout pretty much works the same, so I do not think you are correct on your point here.


No need to get upset. I'm just going by what I read years ago when I first got into this hobby. 
Rokuhan doesn't mention anything about isolating frogs in any of it's turnout or slip switch demos. Nor is there any mention of isolation blocks on any of it's layouts.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> No need to get upset. I'm just going by what I read years ago when I first got into this hobby.
> Rokuhan doesn't mention anything about isolating frogs in any of it's turnout or slip switch demos. Nor is there any mention of isolation blocks on any of it's layouts.


Who's upset?

If the switches are designed to selectively power-route, you need to handle them electrically. Regardless of scale or brand.

If you have a reversing loop, it needs to be isolated and handled electrically. Your double slip switch should be outside the reversing loop, so while you do need to handle each properly, one has nothing to do with the other directly (unless you haven't isolated the reverse loop properly).


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> Who's upset?
> 
> If the switches are designed to selectively power-route, you need to handle them electrically. Regardless of scale or brand.
> 
> If you have a reversing loop, it needs to be isolated and handled electrically. Your double slip switch should be outside the reversing loop, so while you do need to handle each properly, one has nothing to do with the other directly (unless you haven't isolated the reverse loop properly).


I am handling all switches and turnouts in this section of my layout manually. While they are electric capable, I have chosen not to operate them in this fashion. All turnouts on the rest of my layout, wherever they are, are operated electrically. I'm going below to work on the problem. Hopefully I will have good news when I come up later today.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> I am handling all switches and turnouts in this section of my layout manually. While they are electric capable, I have chosen not to operate them in this fashion. All turnouts on the rest of my layout, wherever they are, are operated electrically. I'm going below to work on the problem. Hopefully I will have good news when I come up later today.


By "handle them electrically" I don't mean you need powered switch machines, I mean you need to handle the electrical issue of the power-routing frogs and the potential of shorting things out if you feed track power in from the frog end and don't electrically isolate the frog rail.

Manual vs. powered switch machines is not relevant.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> With all of your terminal, industry, maintenance spurs plus the track
> to rest of layout through
> the 'slip' turnout I can understand the confusion...but when
> you cut away those spurs (as you have done in your drawing)
> ...


Don:
Here is what I have done so far:
I put a block in the track that leads into my terminal just after the turnout at the top right of the loop, above the station. I then connected my main feeder direct from the power pack to the track just above the slip switch between position 3 and the last turnout on this section. Now all tracks entering terminal are powered so train can move in and out.

Now I connected the rest of this track to supply power to the loop and put it just after the bottom turnout on the lower right next to the edge of bench. Train moves along this path until it gets to the upper right turnout. Then it stalls. To cross the gap. DPDT switch must be changed. Train then crossed gap and proceeds into the terminal tracks and through the slip at position 3 and out to rest of terminal at position 1

However, I have no power to the 4 bottom terminal tracks right of position 2.

In addition to the gap at the upper right, should I have another block just before position 3?
Should I put another one between posiiton 2, and the first turnout immediately after it? 

I am going to make a design change to my maintenance yard. Instead of locos entering and exiting off the secondary loop as I have it now, I am going to have it come in from the first loop just above the terminal tracks so that the power will be distributed to all side tracks.

BTW when I tried to operate this mess the way I did it yesterday. I couldn't make it work. It seems I have forgotten what to do which is not surprising.
I'm thinking I'm going to need at least one more DPDT switch or a selector switch to turn power on and off to certain tracks.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

I have another question? As I recall when I put my first reverse loop in, I read that the DPDT switch should be used to make trains go forward and backward and the corresponding switch on the power pack is left in one position only. I can't seem to do that here. I must have something wired backwards.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

It will work depending on how your switch poles are wired, and if the switch, itself, the toggle, is in good mechanical condition and making internal contacts correctly. The DPDT has middle input poles for main power (from your power bus or from the transformer). From there, the toggle isolates two other poles at a time. You must wire the pairs, outside left, outside right, to the rails simultaneously, but the poles are reversed between which rail they power. When you flick the toggle, the phase/polarity changes, depending on if we're talking DCC or DC. If in DC, the locomotive will change direction. If in DCC, it won't matter because the signal imprinted on the AC square wave will still instruct the decoder to spin the can motor one way...the same way as before.

If your switch is powering ONLY the truly isolated, gapped, reversing length of track, and the switch is working, it will serve to correct the phase/polarity disparity at either end of the reversed section.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

I wired my reversing loop directly to the controller, then the mainline to the toggle switch. When a train wants to reverse you drive onto the loop then hit the toggle switch. The toggle switch is marked for which turnout on the mainline you open open to enter the reversing loop. 
So: 
_Train coming_ 
Look at toggle switch for 1st or 2nd turnout to open
Open turnout
_Train enters reversing loop_
Flip toggle
Flip both turnouts
_Train exits reversing loop_
Reset open turnout

The toggle switch is wired from the controller to one pole, then jumper wires cross each other to the other pole. the center pair lead to the track.

Your setup would be the same way but the toggle switch would be marked for which direction you enter the terminal block, Left or Right.
Hope this makes sense.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Murv2 said:


> I wired my reversing loop directly to the controller, then the mainline to the toggle switch. When a train wants to reverse you drive onto the loop then hit the toggle switch. The toggle switch is marked for which turnout on the mainline you open open to enter the reversing loop.
> So:
> _Train coming_
> Look at toggle switch for 1st or 2nd turnout to open
> ...


Thanks


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Don: 
I finally heard back from Rokuhan regarding my problem and this is what they sent me. It is very close to what I have now except the yard tracks are in the wrong location. They have indicated where isolation gaps are which are shown as L25. What they do not show is where the power in point is. 

I'm going to work on the layout today to try to get it operational according to how you indicate things. However, after looking at my layout, my diagrams and giving the matter a great deal of thought almost all night, I'm going to ditch the slip switch and operate this layout as a simple reverse loop with the terminal and yard tracks coming off of it. The second loop behind the maintenance yard will disappear all together. This will mean that two of my trains will not be able to run. I guess it's an equitable trade off. All turnouts in the lower portion of this layout will either disappear or be repositioned.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Echo

The new track plan is quite different from what we've
been working on.

I can't follow the changes that you outlined in your new post 70
so we'll have to see a drawing of your new track plan to make
any further comment.

I really feel for your frustration. You have a quite complex
layout section. I have no idea of what the larger part of
your layout is. I assume that you have 2, 3 or maybe more
DC power packs, a panel of switches that are used to
assign each power pack to a track so you can run
more than one train at a time.

All of this must be quite awkward to operate and quite
difficult to wire. It is the very reason that DCC has taken
over the 2 rail train hobby. It is so totally simple. You have
two wires that feed all tracks in your layout. There is no
panel of switches, no rats nest of wiring. You only have
the DCC controller, and your locos, 2, 3, 4 or more...and
you can control each individually from that one controller.
Each loco has a 2 or 4 digit 'address'. You select, say, loco 02,
and tell it to go at a moderate speed. Then while it's running
you punch loco 04 and operate it in your yard switching cars.
And the 'reverse loop' is even easier...it's totally automatic.
You forget about it...just run your trains right thru it with no
need for you to do anything.

The reason I bring this up is that you have a quite complex
layout. Changes and improvements tend to make it even
more complex as we have learned in this thread.
But with DCC the complexity is mostly
eliminated...and you would be surprised at how much
easier it is to run your trains...you can concentrate on
the operation without having to concern yourself with
a panel of power control switches.

I hope you can give this some thought. It can be
very helpful for you.

Don


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> Echo
> 
> The new track plan is quite different from what we've
> been working on.
> ...


Hi Don.
The layout design Rokuhan sent me is similar in principal but the loops are shaped differently as is the yard.
I have been working on the changes you mentioned but so far no luck. Seems to be a problem with the secondary loop. The diagrams haven't changed, but I really need to know where to put the feeder from the pack, and blocks. Also the wire from the DPDT switch. I have been experimenting, and I put the feeder wire from the pack on the track just above position 3 and below the turnouts for the terminal. That gives me power to operate each track in the terminal and back as far as the turnout in the upper right rear of the bench, But I have no power anywhere else. Train will not pass through to position 1 or 4. By moving the feeder wire around to the tracks to the right of the slip, I can get power to the loop at position 4 and all around and back to position 2 providing the upper right turnout is set to the correct position. But I get no power to the terminal tracks. I can also go out on position 1.

As for my whole layout, if you look at the last 3 or 4 pictures you will get a glimpse of how massive it is and yes I have more then one power pack powering 3 separate lines. Yes I have 3 control panels with numerous switch machines and selectors and track controllers and 3 separate reverse loops which all work just fine. I build this layout to be used in a club setting which I tried numerous times to start. There are 4 positions for people to control the train and each one is independent of the other. The whole layout is 40 ft. x 18 ft.

Yes I thought about DCC, but it's to expensive to convert and I would need to do extensive rewiring to accommodate the controller. Plus some of my engines can't be outfitted with decoders. So DC it is.

I'm going to make one more attempt to solve this situation tomorrow and if I still can't get any results, then I've decided to run two tracks independently of the other. I will have to use 3 crossovers, and reposition my main track but if that's what needs to be done, then so be it. The double slip switch will be history. I had hoped I would have been able to get this working today, but I can see, it's going to take a lot longer then I expected.

I'm going to hook up my main loop the way I did with the other three reverse loops and leave the terminal tracks in to see if that works. The double slip will come out for now. All other tracks will stay disconnected. If I can get it working with all the terminal and yard tracks hooked up, and power in and out, then half the battle is won. Then I will decide what to do with the other loop. And if that doesn't work, then I'll rip out the whole thing and start over. Either way, I've taken far too much time on this and Dec. 31 isn't far away. So much to do and so little time.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> Echo
> 
> The new track plan is quite different from what we've
> been working on.
> ...


If you take the original diagram of the reversing loops, where the slip switch is, that will be replaced by a left hand turnout. The loop that goes from position 4 all the way around to the turnout at the upper right of the layout at the opposite end next to the wall will be eliminated. The maintenance tracks will be changed so they will connect to the original loop just above the terminal tracks. Feeder wire from power pack will be located just before turnout at bottom left. Terminal tracks at bottom of layout will be reposition or eliminated. Wire to loop will be located at bottom of layout ahead of turnout. Loop will be blocked ahead of bottom turnout to right and again before turnout to outbound track to the left. This is the same way I have done my other loops and it works.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> Yes I thought about DCC, but ... I would need to do extensive rewiring to accommodate the controller.


No you don't. To convert the layout to DCC you can pretty much just replace the DC power supply with DCC. Of course you need to fix all your existing electrical issues first, because they will be just as much of a problem with either DC or DCC.



Echo31 said:


> Plus some of my engines can't be outfitted with decoders. So DC it is.


That is definitely a concern.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> No you don't. To convert the layout to DCC you can pretty much just replace the DC power supply with DCC. Of course you need to fix all your existing electrical issues first, because they will be just as much of a problem with either DC or DCC.
> 
> 
> 
> That is definitely a concern.


It's still too expensive once you add in the decoders, the power supply, hook ups for the hand held, and other hardware, It just would not be cost effective on my layout this late in the game. I've had this same discussion with train club members and they don't seem to realize or possibly even care, that I am a senior living on a fixed income, so I don't have great gobs of money to play with. This layout from the beginning to end has already cost me well over 25 grand. I'm not interested.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If you are using the fwd/rev switch on the power packs, I think you going to forever have trouble. you need to have a separate DPDT for the main tracks and separate DPDT switches for each reverse loop all being powered by your power packs with their fwd/rev switches tape so they can't change.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> If you are using the fwd/rev switch on the power packs, I think you going to forever have trouble. you need to have a separate DPDT for the main tracks and separate DPDT switches for each reverse loop all being powered by your power packs with their fwd/rev switches tape so they can't change.


I have dual DPDT switch now. Doesn't help.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I keep thinking about those turnouts, a make I'm not familiar with. Earlier posts seem to indicate that
they are power routing. I note that you have points in this section where
your train just stops. With a complex track plan such as yours, it is
important to see that there are track drops from the frog rails of every
turnout. Keep in mind tho, that the frog rails are of different polarity.

This power routing feature can be helpful to you also. It could eliminate the
need for an on/off switch for each stub track. For example, when you
have a train idling in the passenger terminal, if it's spur turnout is set to 'straight'
it would turn off power to 'that' terminal track. For these spurs you would not
install the frog rail track drops.

Don

Don


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> I keep thinking about those turnouts, a make I'm not familiar with. Earlier posts seem to indicate that
> they are power routing. I note that you have points in this section where
> your train just stops. With a complex track plan such as yours, it is
> important to see that there are track drops from the frog rails of every
> ...


Yes Don you are quite correct. This is the reason I am using Rokuhan turnouts so that I don't have to do a lot of wiring and employ a dozen or so selector boxes. On the rest of my layout I am using a combination of Marklin and MTL. As it stands right now, my trains stall when it reaches the gap at the back right above the station, where you said to put it. Trains also stall crossing the frog of the double slip but this depends on which position the DPDT's are in at the time, and for some reason, it doesn't seem to happen all the time. I think this is a matter of co-ordination. Train also stalls on turnout going into maintenance yard, but I believe this is because those tracks are not powered from the under table jumpers. I forgot to install one when I changed the yard access from the oval loop to the reverse loop. I am going to fix that today. Even though the turnouts for the factories I currently have right now are powered by the line they are connected to, I have installed jumper wires because those tracks cross a gap between tables and without them, there is no power to those tracks beyond the turnout.

I have been in contact with Rokuhan, and explained things to them multiple times and I have sent them my pictures and diagrams, but being Japanese, they keep telling me they don't understand. Equally, there responses are very hard to understand since their command of the English language is extremely limited. It is sometimes impossible to interpret what they want.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I think the language barrier will preclude any help from Rokuhan, but I understand having to try.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Echo

There may be some miss communication...The gap BEFORE the upper right turnout
(in your drawing) is the North end of the 'reverse loop', Slip turnout 3 is the South end.
This section should get it's power from your DPDT circuit. When your loco stalls at
the upper right turnout, flip your DPDT switch. If nothing happens there must
be something awry in that DPDT circuit. You did not mention...when the loco
stalls, does it show 'short' ...or just lack of power?
Did you use your multimeter
at that upper right turnout? Is there voltage (when speed control is up)? Is
there voltage on the 'reverse loop' side of the turnout?
Also, I saw one posting that
recommended gaps in the frog rails of your power routing turnouts. This would
not be correct. Instead of gaps, you need track drops to your bus circuit. Is there
a gap in the frog rails of that upper right turnout? 

Hang in there...we'll get your going...at some point.

Don


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> Echo
> 
> There may be some miss communication...The gap BEFORE the upper right turnout
> (in your drawing) is the North end of the 'reverse loop', Slip turnout 3 is the South end.
> ...


With Rokuhan power packs, they are designed to automatically shut off if there is a short, derailment, or turnout points are turned the wrong way. The pack must be turned on again when the problem is corrected. There are gaps in the frog rails of all turnouts. Once I pass the loco over the gap, it continues running in the same direction, but again, I have to turn the power pack on again. Should there be a gap before point 3 after the last turnout in the terminal? Also, should there be a gap after point 2 somewhere?


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Echo31 said:


> With Rokuhan power packs, they are designed to automatically shut off if there is a short, derailment, or turnout points are turned the wrong way. The pack must be turned on again when the problem is corrected. There are gaps in the frog rails of all turnouts. Once I pass the loco over the gap, it continues running in the same direction, but again, I have to turn the power pack on again. Should there be a gap before point 3 after the last turnout in the terminal? Also, should there be a gap after point 2 somewhere?


Also Don, on the power input, Should it not be coming in from a point to the left of point 1?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Echo

When you say there are gaps in the frog rails of all turnouts...are you saying
they are manufactured that way...or did you make the gaps? If they are
power routing, as had been claimed, they should NOT have gaps. If gaps
are built in or recommended, that would indicate to me that they are not
power routing but have powered frogs...and that is a whole different ball
game.

I'm going to try to get a copy of the manual for those Rokuhan turnouts...Those
are 'new' features that I have never heard of before. Let me check those
before commenting further. It may take a while since me no speaketh the
language either.


Don


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> Also Don, on the power input, Should it not be coming in from a point to the left of point 1?


For any power routing turnout, power input must be from the points end of the turnout, not the frog.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> Echo
> 
> When you say there are gaps in the frog rails of all turnouts...are you saying
> they are manufactured that way...or did you make the gaps? If they are
> ...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You've already spent $25 Grand on this layout, and you can't come up with a measly $250 for an MRC Prodigy Explorer and a dozen basic decoders to greatly simplify your life? OK, if you say so.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> You've already spent $25 Grand on this layout, and you can't come up with a measly $250 for an MRC Prodigy Explorer and a dozen basic decoders to greatly simplify your life? OK, if you say so.


Sorry if you can't understand. I am on a fixed pension and what I have spent was mostly when I was working. Now I spend only what my budget will allow. The 25 grand is what it is appraised at by insurance and that's a total since I started 15 years ago. I could be more then that. I chose DC when I started because of the expense of DCC. So to sum up, I am not interested in DCC. OK? Case closed.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I found the Rokuhan web site and the 'slip turnout' 'manual'.

Somehow I missed, and I suppose some others missed that Echo's
layout is Z SCALE. (I thought it was N). Rokuhan apparently sells only Z products. While
it is 2 rail DC and electrically no different from HO or N, the mini size may cause us to have different opinions.

The 'slip' turnout that this thread centers on is IN FACT a Slip turnout.
A train can go 'straight thru' using the upper 2 or lower 2 track
connections...or a train can go from lower left to upper right et al.

(Echo's 'isolated reverse' track section connects to upper left of turnout.)

Further, the manual says the turnout can be set for 'power routing'
or 'non power routing'. 

However, looking at the turnout in the pictures it appears to 
have 'electrofrogs' tho this was not mentioned in the manual.
Also not mentioned is the 'no derail' feature or how it works.



https://www.rokuhan.com/english/products/R034%20%26%20R035%20Double%20Slip%20Turnout%2C%20instruction%20manual.pdf



I invite you all to look at this PDF and give your opinions...does it require gaps in frog rails (It
looks to me that it does) yet it claims to be EITHER power routing or NON power routing. It's
no wonder Echo is frustrated. At this point I'm not certain enough to make any
recommendations. I would want to use a multimeter and see what I get when the
points are moved. 

This is possibly the most complex and confounding thread that I've seen on the Forum.

I hope we can get some help from the manual and offer Echo some useful advice.

Don


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I should have said in my above post # 89 that Echo in his post # 1 clearly
stated that his was a DC Z scale layout. And that the turnouts were
power routing. I am embarrassed that I missed or forgot that information.

After studying the pictures of the Rokuhan turnouts enlarged I see that they are actually a
combination powered frog with optional power routing...but the frog rails
are insulated from the frog. That means no frog rail gap is required since
the frog rails do not change polarity. They are the polarity of the track
connected to them. Echo has them set for power routing. So connecting
track gets power only when points are set to it, otherwise it is powerless unless
that track has a power feed.

Echo...have you made any gaps in the turnouts connecting tracks other than
where the slip turnout connects to the bottom of the isolated reverse section
and the where the isolated section connects to the turnout in upper right?

It seems to me that the best way to trace the loss of power is to remove all locos...set the speed
control to a middle to high voltage...and use a multimeter set to DC to see where power drops off.
At turnouts, check each point setting. You may need to work your DPDT switches to get
a voltage in the isolated 'reverse' section.

Don


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> I should have said in my above post # 89 that Echo in his post # 1 clearly
> stated that his was a DC Z scale layout. And that the turnouts were
> power routing. I am embarrassed that I missed or forgot that information.
> 
> ...


Don:

For clarification. This slip switch as well as all the Rokuhan turnouts I'm using are all Power Routing which is determined by the position of the points. The can all be changed to non-Power Routing by adding to tiny, screws to the back of the turnout which are provided with each turnout. As a point of reference, when I first installed the first loop to the right, (see pictures) I did it the same way as the other three reverse loops that I have now. It worked as a reverse loop did. Even after installing the turnouts into what is to be my passenger terminal, it still did what it was supposed to do. The problems started happening when I added in the second loop behind the maintenance yard and back down to the other end where the two loops joined up. But I got into trouble when passing everything through this slip switch. At one point, both sections were working as I had envisioned. but the everything came off the rails, so to speak. 
Sometimes I have power to move trains out of the terminal and through the slip and on to the rest of the layout. Sometimes I have power to take a trains and do the oval side of the layout continuously. Nothing is consistent. In most scenarios, my trains stall crossing the slip in certain directions. 
I have asked Rokuhan for help on this and I have been back and forth with them with pictures, hand drawn designs and explanations, but it appears they don't understand what I am attempting. They come back saying my layout is most complex and confusing to them. Well, DAH! Maybe if you spoke and understood English, you'd see what I want.
If I can't get this to operate within a few days, the slip switch is coming out and a cross track is going in. At least that way, I can operate with two separate independent lines. This of course I will have to use two power packs, but I already this on my very first module with parallel lines and isolated turnouts between them so I can go from one line to the other in either direction. 
Frankly, I already spent too much time on this. I still have so much work to do with detailing my layout, adding structures, people, autos, trees, and grass. Dec. 31 is not that far away and I am already at least a year behind.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> Frankly, I already spent too much time on this. I still have so much work to do with detailing my layout, adding structures, people, autos, trees, and grass. Dec. 31 is not that far away and I am already at least a year behind.


Dec. 31? It's a hobby, words like "deadline" and "behind" shouldn't apply.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

Here is the hand drawn diagram of what I am looking to accomplish here. I sent this to Rokuhan but have yet to hear back from them. The arrows indicate direction of travel. Part of Loop is shared by passenger, freight and commuter trains. Commuter trains only travel in one direction and is on a continuous loop passing from loop 1 to loop 2 and back again all through the slip switch. Initially, commuter trains has to leave terminal and through the upper slip, has to connect to loop 2. Freight trains travel through the slip to the bottom side of loop 1 before branching off to go to freight yard at other end of layout, not seen. Passenger trains enter at bottom left, pass through slip, and follow around loop 1 back to slip in one direction only except to back into terminal tracks. Passenger trains leave terminal, pass through slip and out to rest of layout. Note where the power input is and how loop 1 is wired to DPDT switch. Also not position of gaps at 1,2 and 3. Do I need to put additional gaps at before slip on loop 1 and after slip on loop 2. See diagram.
This as simple as I can make it.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> Dec. 31? It's a hobby, words like "deadline" and "behind" shouldn't apply.


It does when you don't have much time left in one's life.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Echo31 said:


> Don:
> 
> For clarification. This slip switch as well as all the Rokuhan turnouts I'm using are all Power Routing which is determined by the position of the points. The can all be changed to non-Power Routing by adding to tiny, screws to the back of the turnout which are provided with each turnout.


Since you've actively ignored all advice on how to wire for power-routing switches, I'd recommend trying to convert the slip switch and other switches directly on the main oval to non-power-routing.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> Since you've actively ignored all advice on how to wire for power-routing switches, I'd recommend trying to convert the slip switch and other switches directly on the main oval to non-power-routing.


I HAVE NOT IGNORED ADVICE GIVEN TO ME. I AM TRYING EVERYTHING I CAN TO RESOLVE THIS PROBLEM. I READ YOUR MESSAGE AS YOU ARE ANOYED THAT I'M NOT TAKING *YOUR* ADVICE. THIS IS NOT HELPFUL AT ALL. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM RESPONDING TO THIS THREAD IN THE FUTURE.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

After further study of these very unusual turnouts it was obvious that
to function as a true 'power routing' turnout it had to energize the
frog rails. Since they are insulated from the frogs AND EACH OTHER
it is apparent that when points are set for 'divert' the divert frog rail
gets power and thus the track connected. When points are set straight
ONLY the Straight frog rail is powered thus so is the connecting track.

Echo...it has come to mind that considering how tiny these devices
are, that there may be intermittent electrical conductivity within some
turnouts. Considering your experience with the loco sometimes
stalling, do you think this may be possible? Do you think it would help
to try using your multimeter as I suggested in my post # 90? You need
do this only at the turnouts where you have experienced stalling.

Don


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> After further study of these very unusual turnouts it was obvious that
> to function as a true 'power routing' turnout it had to energize the
> frog rails. Since they are insulated from the frogs AND EACH OTHER
> it is apparent that when points are set for 'divert' the divert frog rail
> ...


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You must reply outside of the quote tag for your message to appear separate from whom you are quoting.


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## Echo31 (Aug 12, 2021)

DonR said:


> After further study of these very unusual turnouts it was obvious that
> to function as a true 'power routing' turnout it had to energize the
> frog rails. Since they are insulated from the frogs AND EACH OTHER
> it is apparent that when points are set for 'divert' the divert frog rail
> ...


After further study of these very unusual turnouts it was obvious that
to function as a true 'power routing' turnout it had to energize the
frog rails. Since they are insulated from the frogs AND EACH OTHER
it is apparent that when points are set for 'divert' the divert frog rail
gets power and thus the track connected. When points are set straight
ONLY the Straight frog rail is powered thus so is the connecting track.

Echo...it has come to mind that considering how tiny these devices
are, that there may be intermittent electrical conductivity within some
turnouts. Considering your experience with the loco sometimes
stalling, do you think this may be possible? Do you think it would help
to try using your multimeter as I suggested in my post # 90? You need
do this only at the turnouts where you have experienced stalling.

Don
[/QUOT
Don:

I worked on this for quite a long time yesterday, and conducted several different experiments with turnout locations, gap positions and power feed and I have decided to remove the slip switch and replace it with a 30 degree cross over piece. However, before I do that, I installed a left hand turnout and connected it to my loop, I moved the power input wires to just before said turnout, I blocked it just before the turnout at the bottom of the loop at the edge of the bench, removed the block at the upper right turnout and put one just above the installed turnout after the last terminal side track. I did this the same way as I did the other 3 reverse loops and guess what? It worked even with all the additional sidings. I disconnected all other sidings and the second reverse loop and I had no problems.
Conclusion: The double slip switch will not function in the manner I want. And the manufacturer is no help at all since they can't understand what I am trying to do and no matter how many times I explain it to them, no matter how many pictures or hand drawn diagrams I send them, they just don't get it. My thinking is, if they English is a problem for them, then they shouldn't be selling their stuff outside of Japan.

Back to my layout: Since the crossover track can act as a center piece for a figure 8 layout, and since there is not direct connection to flow of power between the arms of the crossover unless a continuous feed track is employed, I intend on using one side as my passenger terminal outbound track, and the other side as a continuous loop for my commuter trains and steam train. In short, they will be on independently power tracks specifically dedicated to the trains I want to run. I will have to make some modifications to my terminal and inbound tracks, and I will have to add a second track to loop around behind the terminal just for the commuter train and put in a second terminal just for that.

I will also have to make a change in the inbound track for passenger and freight trains across the bottom below the crossover, and a connection from the passenger terminal to the commuter track with a gap in between like I did with the very first module I build 15 years ago with gapped turnouts so I could switch from one track to another, Of course I will need a second power pack to I can power the commuter line separate from the other.

In theory and on paper, it should work. I have to order at least 2 crossovers and another power pack as well as more wire, so that means another delay of two weeks. But if things go the way I see it on paper, I should have the last of the modules up and running be the end of this month. Then I can set to work detailing and finish it by the end of the year.
I want to thank you and everyone else for all your constructive advice and help on this matter. All things considered, I should have gone with this idea right from the very beginning. I cant help feeling that all of this has been an exercise in futility.

Thanks to everyone.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Echo

That sure is a lot of work that you are handing yourself. Since you are the one
with hands on experience with these devices you are the one to make
the decisions. We all hope that these changes will give you the
enjoyable layout that you want. Let us know how it all comes out.

Don


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Ha ! Some *82 *(!) posts later and you're finally doing what I'd suggested in post 19:
Take the D-slip out of the main line. It will better serve in a stub-end terminal/yard throat where it's not involved within a reverse loop ..

Also, best get your RR nomenclature correct:
In post #100, Re: your 1st paragraph, 1st sentence..(not Don's). I.E.:
An X-like track (your ensuing 30 Deg) is called a '*crossing*', not a 'crossover'..
A *crossover* is formed with 2 opposing TOs..A double-crossover has an X (crossing) in the middle of 2 + 2 opposing TOs, both types between parallel tracks.

Yes. Do let us know how it all turns out.


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