# The use of "X" on Lionel Postwar items



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

A question was posted on OGR forum asking what was the difference of a 2466W and 2466WX tender, and in general how did Lionel use the "X" during the Postwar era. I did a little digging and came up with the best explanation of where it was used. Here is what I came up with, with comparison of Greenberg and Doyle Catalogs.

The 2466W had holes for railings, but were not installed, 2466WX had vertical railiings and railing running the perimeter of the tank deck. The same situation for the 6466W no railings, 6466WX had the railiings. The 2671W had "Pennslyvania" stamped on the sides, the 2671WX had "Lionel Lines" stamped on the side. The 2046W was stamped Lionel Lines, the 2046WX was only the Box Stamping, with a 2046-50 tender stamp on the bottom.

On rolling stock that had an "X" designation, meant that it was a variation, typically color. Sets starting with "X" were usually promotional sets, mostly found in the 1960's, but could also be used earlier for other retailers: i.e. Sears, Firestone, Gifts Galore, S&H GreenStamp, Montgomery Ward, Spiegel, J.C. Penney, etc.


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

Thanks for digging for the info, T.Doc. Last year I was lucky and got an unboxed Lionel #6468x Tuscan B&O automobile boxcar for a decent price. Twice I've seen boxes for this item, available only in '56 in the Lionel 2243 Santa Fe AB set. The box is stamped X upside the number. I look at it and go, "how hard would it be for some dishonest person to come up with a stamp (a potato stamp would suffice) to simulate the 'X' and sell it to some poor slob like me for 50 to 80 bucks? Answer: not that hard. This is one more reason I give X-stamped original boxes a somewhat wide berth in my hunting. Call it "X" factoring.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The Tuscan B & O is the type II from Doyle's catalog, and the end flap on the box does show 6468X, which denotes a color change from the normal blue type I. If you check in the "0" section, under "Looking for Information", there is a PDF file at post number 73 that has a list of PDF files, which has a listing for Lionel's numbering system for rolling stock.


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## emmetd (Aug 1, 2012)

X was used to mark 027 versions


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Emmetd, Not to start an argument, but what are you referencing to make that statement? I'm curious.


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## emmetd (Aug 1, 2012)

Post war 1666. The x was used to tell difference between 027 and O gague versions.especially the tenders. 027 version operated whistle at lower voltage.
Early in production. 1946.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The 1666 Postwar does have an "X" stamped inside the cab, which has to do with how the loco was trimmed, (sand domes either smooth, or rivet detail), and has nothing to do with referring to 027 or 0. If you follow the "typical norm" of Lionel's numbering, a three digit loco is considered "0", whereas a four digit loco would be considered "027". Yes there are exceptions to that numbering rule, but the typical is what most will follow. 

An example of an exception is the Turbines. The 671/681/682 would be considered "0" , and a 2020 would be considered "027". The 671 & 2020 are the same loco, only with different numbers stamped.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am not familiar with all of the 2466 variations. They may in fact all had vertical railings but not all the later 6466WXs had vertical railings. Only a railing around the water deck. My early 2035 set received in the Christmas of 1949 (1950 Catalog) had only the water deck railing. In later years I had my doubts since I sold my Lionels 8 years later but checking the 1950 catalog it specifically states the tender in that set was a 6466WX and illustrated that way. Later 2035s including all of the 1951 sets came with a 6466W.
The pre war versions of these tenders and also the early 671 tenders had vertical railings on all four corners as well diagonal ones over the tender front beam.
All of the bodies are interchangable of course. When I replaced my 2035 around 2000 the seller had replaced the body with a 2466WX body with railings all around. Not being a collector this was a plus for me.

Pete


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Norton, The W only didn't have any railings but had the holes for them, compared to the WX which would have railings (some just the top one, others with both horizontal and vertical railings. Lionel didn't use the X consistently, but to answer 'emmetd' about the 1666 Postwar only; the type I & II are numbered with metal plates, the type III is rubber stamped, with the X inside the cab, to denote the variation from the other two. An example of a color variation other than the 6468 posted above, is the 6560 Reddish/Orange crane car. The box end flap has an X stamped on it, but nothing on the body or frame, but Doyle Catalog stated that some frames were marked 6560-5X. I have not seen that on any frame, and I own 7 variations of that crane car. The frames I have are marked 2460-5 and the trucks are mounted using Binding Head Screws, which are very easy to spot.

I do not have a Greenberg Postwar book to verify in print, but I did see an eBay offering of a 2026X locomotive in the last year. The loco in question has an X stamped inside the cab, similar to the 1666 type III, and from what I have come to understand is that it was because the loco was actually a 2025 stamped as a 2026, making it a very rare variation. When it comes to oddities like this, and a few other Lionel items, I will spend hours researching, and verify what I find.

EDIT to the 2026X: This was listed at Stout's Auctions, but apparently never sold. 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/901468_very-difficult-lionel-2026x-steam-locomotive


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I was just trying to point out WX just indicated railings, not how many or where they were located. Doyle seems to indicate all of the 6466WXs had only the water deck railing.
No denying that Lionel was not always consistent though. Many times the early offerings got the remains of the previous years parts.

Pete


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Norton, I agree, and not all the published books/catalogs have everything listed. Doyle copied a lot of other peoples research (and was thereby sued by Paul Ambrose), Greenberg does go into further detail with variations, and explanations, and Touhy & McComas also give more detail, but each having missing info and sometimes wrong info. I use Doyle for good pictures, more than anything else.

As a reference to variations from Greenberg or T & M, with Prewar 1688E locos, both have missed a lot of what is out there. T & M doesn't give much detail with this loco, where Greenberg lists 8 variations studied from well known collectors. I became fascinated with this loco from an article from CTT that ran a story about the "Open Forward window cabs". It was written by John A. Grams (deceased). I started looking for just that loco, and soon found a whole lot more variations. I have a post in the Tinplate section, which I came up with 18 (eighteen) variations, and just found another one in the past two weeks, that bumps the number to 19 variations of just the 1688/1688E. That body was one of the most produced in Prewar, than any other locos in Lionel's offerings.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't recall ever seeing a 1666 listed as an o item? The o versions were numbered differently? Maybe you saw one with a replaced collecter plate?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I get what your saying now, the o guage whistle assembly is in the tender of an 027 engine . Got it. Was that tender used in other sets and just got thrown in with the 1666, or maybe it was replaced? I never thought about that before. I never even thought about the different voltages before. As the trains are old , sometimes worn and lubricant missing, I figure the whistle operates best at whatever voltage it wants to! I'm betting that tender was supposed to be paired with the 0 guage version of the 1666. Maybe left over and paired with its doppelganger


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

sjm9911, The Prewar and Postwar 1666's are 027 locos, *not "0" at all.* The Postwar version came with a 2466 tender, of either W or WX variety, which is without railings, or with railings. The Prewar 1666 came with a 2689 tender. To tell a Prewar 1666 from a Postwar 1666 you have to look at the Cab deck on each. The Prewar version is squared off, and the Postwar has a rounded back edge. The differences of what is listed with an 027 whistle is it uses a WS-75 whistle, and the 0 uses a WS-85 whistle. Physically both look the same, but there is apparently something internal, possibly the armature, that the 027 would operate at 12 volt, and the 0 operated at 14 volt. I can't find any fact to back it up. I have a couple of the die-cast whistles of the WS75/85 style, but I doubt I could tell you which is which, as I said, they look alike.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I know, he said the 1666 came in o and o27. The only difference he mentioned was the whistle amps? I think the only difference is the windings? The 1666 has some diffrent versions too, wheels, trailing truck etc, bell. I was a bit confused when he said it was only and o27? The only difference is could see is if he got a 1666 with an o guage whistle in the tender? I got a pre war and post war 1666, they are nice.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I agree with certain trim variations like pilot or trailing trucks, and the loco railings either black, or nickel. Because the 1666 was a remake of the 224, which is "0" gauge by numbering convention, they assume it holds true for the 1666. Whether you look at the Prewar or Postwar, they are listed as 027, period. The 0 vs. 027 is the rail height of the track, because of varying wheel flanges, and in some cases the overall length of a loco, with respect to curves, and switches.


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## NewTexan (Apr 29, 2012)

I posted the original question regarding the 2466W vs 2466WX. Thanks for the information. -- Greenberg says that some 736's came with a 2671WX with Lionel Lines markings in O gauge sets. The 2671W's with Pennsylvania markings generally came with the turbines in O gauge sets.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Loving the 671 & similar locomotives, I've been keeping an eye on ebay & what I've casually observed is that the tenders listed as 2466W have 4 wheel trucks & the tenders listed as 2466WX have 6 wheel trucks.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, there are NO 2466WX tenders with 6 wheels. The 6 wheel tender, mated to the Turbines 671 & 2020 would be the. 2671W/2671WX. The difference of the 2671’s are stamping of Lionel Lines or Pennsylvania on the sides. Show me a 2466WX with 6 wheels.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

teledoc said:


> Balidas, there are NO 2466WX tenders with 6 wheels. The 6 wheel tender, mated to the Turbines 671 & 2020 would be the. 2671W/2671WX. The difference of the 2671’s are stamping of Lionel Lines or Pennsylvania on the sides. Show me a 2466WX with 6 wheels.


No you are correct. Got my tenders mixed up.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

It’s pretty easy to do, when looking at numerous items. The 2671 and 2046 use the same frame & bodies, but the 2046 used 4 wheel trucks vs. the 6 wheel truck on the 2671. Some frames having stamping and others don’t. Probably a lazy factory worker, on a given day....LOL!!


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