# Problem with RF signal (I think)



## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

Hi again. I have a problem on my layout which just developed overnight (not during or straight after) me fiddling with things. I have looked on forum and studied Barry's book so think I know issue but unsure of best way to approach/resolve. I'll try and keep it simple for you to read. Basically have 2 independent tracks with some sidings and sidings with switch at both ends acting as a loop. The sidings have track at 1 or both switches isolated at centre rail. Each one then has a power feed via a switch to the centre rail so it can be isolated, mainly to stop coach lights draining current when not running. On one track I am now constantly getting CHECK TRACK, NO ENGINE ON TRACK or RF out of range. None of the Locos on it will Start up properly or respond to commands. The power is from a Z400 via 1 TIU with an output for each track. If I set it at 18v I basically get a 16.5v to 17.0v reading at any points on layout and no dead spots ( the engines seem to run round OK in conventional mode). I have swapped the inputs into the TIU but no change, swapped the outputs from TIU to other track but fault remains on outer track. Also put new batteries in remote. The max length of outer track could be 60' and has 6 to 7 pairs of feed wires from the power block ( the cable was sold as 16 gauge so assuming powerful enough). Any clues folks? Sorry for length of post but tried to cover everything. Cheers 
Walter.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd start by looking for ANYTHING connected to the tracks, signals, switches, etc. Obviously, something has changed, the trick it to find out what it is.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

I have no accessories etc connected to track and switches powered from separate source (all brass jumpers removed - I hope, if one left in would that cause problem or would switch just not work?) All Locos moved to other track and after engine reset seem to power up/down and run OK. I got a small loco running on problem track and when I put it into "signal mode" the best I get is 4 in one area and "no RF signal elsewhere, when track set up few months ago I was getting 9 or 10 all round. Even where TIU is next to track and shortest length of cable to track - about 18 inches- signal is only 1. Majority of cable is what was supplied when transformers etc purchased and no lock ons used all wires soldered direct to track. Loco runs all way round in "conventional mode" so no dead sections of track. It's the concept of DCS that's puzzling me, if a loco "starts up" OK will it run with sounds,lights,smoke etc in a No signal area or must it have a good signal at all points. If I could draw my track layout and wiring it may be obvious to an expert at first glance what I've done 
Walter


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Once a DCS locomotive is moving after startup, a loss of the DCS signal to the locomotive keeps it doing whatever it was doing when the signal was lost. So, if you're going at 30 scale MPH and blowing the horn, the horn will keep blowing and the speed will remain 30MPH until it sees the DCS signal again or power is removed.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

That's something I never realised. I believe I can do a signal test with loco stationary so next step is to connect length of track direct to TIU output and see what signal I get there then slowly work my way out from there. What about the 18v trick? Is that worth trying?
Walter


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

As one with an HO DCC layout, I know nothing about your system.

But, logic would indicate that if your problem occurred 'overnight'
something happened that affected the conductivity of tracks or wiring.

Three rail track can be the victim of a center rail insulator break
down. Moisture could cause that. Moisture can result from temperature
changes in the train room. RF being carried by the AC track current
would be more susceptible to a high resistance than plain AC. Expansion
and/or contraction could also be a culprit. Inspect the track joints.

You indicate all locos fail to respond the same way so that eliminates
them and does point to track or wiring faults.

I wonder if using the slow loco method used to discover derailing problems
would work to find where your track has an electrical problem. Remove or
turn off all other locos and current users. Run it very slowly
using the system (not regular AC), perhaps regularly blowing the
horn, so you know it is or is not getting the signal, and see if you can tell where the
loco loses the signal. That's where you would closely inspect track,
3rd rail insulators, and wiring.

Don


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

The room is well insulated and heated so no damp anyway. I put loco on test track plugged into TIU and got signal of 10. Connected track to power block and got "out of range" so obviously issue with track/wiring. Removed all other wires to power block from track and signal back to 10. Now just need to re-connect in sequence each pair and test to see what happens. I did notice one red wire is split and far side of layout and goes to 2 different siding, could that cause the problem?
Watch this space for update ��
Walter


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

That red wire could be the culprit if it is connected 'out of phase' (polarity).

But why did the layout work with it before? Could it be that a turnout
with power routing 'Now' was set in such a way that the 'out of phase' track
was 'now' seeing the power routing and is 'shorting'? In previous operating
sessions the turnout was set so the points turn off the power to 'that' track
so no shorting.

Don


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

The red wire in question comes from the power block but splits and goes to the centre rail of 2 sidings on opposite side of layout. Connected all pairs of wires back 1 set at a time and tested each time, signal always 9 or 10. Tested all over layout and got 9 or 10 again (mostly 10's) most loco's powered up, shut down , lights, bells & whistles worked. Switched all off and went for my lunch. Came back re-tried and back to 2 or 3's or NO signal at all !!! Got all going again by lots of fiddling with track etc but 1 loco totally failing to Start up. Eventually deleted from hand held and now cannot re add it. Even tried on own piece of track connected to TIU with nothing else connected. Cannot see it to do engine or factory reset, will start up in conventional mode and move back & forward, light & sound plus bells and horn work. Have done reset using Horn + 5 bell pushes and get 2 confirming beeps but still cannot re-add. Anything else I can try? Does it make any difference if powered up or not when trying to add?
Cheers
Walter


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A DCS locomotive obviously MUST be powered to add to the remote as it's a two-way conversation with the locomotive.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

I assumed that as had it running. Actually have 2 that run in conventional but will now not add no matter what I try.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That depends on what you've tried.

Set up a short piece of track with the TIU connected, put ONE engine only on it. First, do a Recover Engine from the Engine Setup menu, then try adding the engine.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

Have tried on own piece of track connected to TIU with nothing else connected. Cannot see it to do engine or factory reset, will start up in conventional mode and move back & forward, light & sound plus bells and horn work. Have done reset using Horn + 5 bell pushes and get 2 confirming beeps but still cannot re-add. my handheld does not give the option to "Recover" as it was given over to me by my father so I'm guessing the software has never been updated since he got it. Is it easy to do? Can cables to connect it to a PC be bought easily as I never got any with it?
Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You will need to update the software in the TIU and the remote to the 4.30 DCS release and then you'll have the Recover Engine function. www.protosound2.com is the site to download the software update package.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

While looking in a box of bits for cables I came across another TIU & remote which had the 2 engines listed in it. I tried that remote and after numerous various attempts got one engine started up, did a factory reset and eventually got it back on original remote and it seems to be working OK. No luck with the other one though. The old handset shows version 3.0 and the newer one 4.0 so I think they both need upgrading. Have ordered cables on- line so hopefully can get them done next week. Confused as to where and when I use the small stereo jack cable though.

Cheers and thanks for help so far.

Walter


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The DCS O Gauge Companion eBook should probably be your next purchase, it's a great reference for the DCS system. $13 for instant gratification, can't be beat.

Here's a link to the DCS Consumer Loader User's Manual.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

I have the book already and have been studying it closely. Finally got all the cables I need (hopefully they are correct, they do all have the right connection ends anyway). I have downloaded the DCS Loaded programme with not problems and it appears to open up as it should. However I cannot get the DCS 4.30 software to download, when I double click on the download link it just opens up the Protosound 2 homepage and sits there forever, no on screen instructions or hidden boxes working in the back ground. Have rebooted laptop several times and same result. Have googled to see if upgrade can be found elsewhere but every option just brings me back to same end result - No download !!!!
Walter


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They just updated the website, and you're right, the links are broken!

As a public service, here is the software and the new features PDF attached to the post.


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## MTH Scotland (Feb 9, 2014)

Thanks for that gunrunner, I did wonder if I could get the file elsewhere. I haven't been ignoring you or got round to doing anything with it as sadly my mother passed away last week so had more important issues than my train set to deal with. I will let you know how I get on when I get round to it.

Cheers


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My condolences for your family, that's clearly a more important issue. Remember, trains are a diversion, family comes first.


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