# #302



## amer/flyer

Don,

I used the direct connection, it worked, the steamer works in reverse, lights and smokes, did not change the wires for the other direction yet, just happy she runs again. Removed 1 wire from the brushes, 2 on 1 brush and 1 on the other.

John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Isn't this the same engine we were working on in the other post? You should stick to writing on one post at a time. This will soon get confusing to follow.

TJ - Can you merge this with the other posting "amer/flyer" wrote?


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## Big Ed

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Isn't this the same engine we were working on in the other post? You should stick to writing on one post at a time. This will soon get confusing to follow.
> 
> TJ - Can you merge this with the other posting "amer/flyer" wrote?


I have been telling him since day one, I gave up. :dunno:


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## amer/flyer

Sorry, Don, 

Must be the side of be that does not think before writing. Yes, this is the same project we were writing about.
John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Ed -- It took me a little longer to realize it.

I can't recall how many times I've responded to postings and found it was the wrong person. My mind isn't what it was...if it ever really was.


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## amer/flyer

Ed,

I apologize for the confusion, same engine. Sometimes I write before thinking about the receipient. I will keep the communications to one post.

John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

It's OK John. Just try to keep it all on one and it will be easier to follow. Thanks.


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## amer/flyer

I agree, I have so much stuff in my head sometimes I forget. I found out that I was putting the wires in incorrect, they were too thin, had to bend them to make them thicker to make them work.

John


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## Big Ed

amer/flyer said:


> Ed,
> 
> I apologize for the confusion, same engine. Sometimes I write before thinking about the receipient. I will keep the communications to one post.
> 
> John


Not one post but keep it in one THREAD. 
A post is the reply you get in a thread. 
A whole bunch of posts makes up a THREAD.

And when you keep making a new thread for the same subject it does get confusing to follow. And for others to answer.


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## amer/flyer

Getting my facebook and MTF forum mixed up. So when you start a new subject, start a new THREAD.


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## Big Ed

amer/flyer said:


> Getting my facebook and MTF forum mixed up. So when you start a new subject, start a new THREAD.


Yes, keep all the 302 in one thread just continue it.
Like your MP690, you started new threads for it, just continue in the original thread with posts.

The 660, just add posts to it, instead of starting a new thread.

Now say your going to do a rebuild thread on a say #21115 Flyer locomotive, start a new thread and every step you do, just add to the thread. That way you don't have a hundred threads on the #21115 rebuild.

It makes it less confusing to follow if it is in all one thread.


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## amer/flyer

Thanks Ed


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## amer/flyer

Don,

It came alive with the tender, both forward and reverse. Double checked the wiring, cleaned up the solder joints , took the finger boards off and cleaned. So far so good.

John


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## flyernut

amer/flyer said:


> Getting my facebook and MTF forum mixed up. So when you start a new subject, start a new THREAD.


Yep. It does make it confusing when there's several threads about the same subject, but no harm, no foul.We're just here to help each other so keep plugging along...


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## amer/flyer

flyernut,

I just never thought about threads and posts, got mixed up, but it makes sense. Thanks for keeping me on track.

John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Sounds like good progress so far. What else is there to complete?


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## amer/flyer

I want to start and build a layout for the trains, got the wood, don't know if I want to set up a full sheet of plywood or go with the wide shelf. I will be running 2 ovals of s gauge an a oval for O gauge.
P.S. I am going to try to get the old A/F 7b 70watt transformer to work.
So far the purchase I made with switches has turned out to be a good one. 

John


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## flyernut

amer/flyer said:


> I want to start and build a layout for the trains, got the wood, don't know if I want to set up a full sheet of plywood or go with the wide shelf. I will be running 2 ovals of s gauge an a oval for O gauge.
> P.S. I am going to try to get the old A/F 7b 70watt transformer to work.
> So far the purchase I made with switches has turned out to be a good one.
> 
> John


Flyer stuff likes to run on a 5X8 or 9 layout. 4X8 is too tight for 2 loops, but 5X8 or 9 works great. I mean, you can run a 4X8 but it's tight for additional things. On a 4X8, only the inside loop can have switches, from my experience. I remember as a kid trying my darn-est to run switches on both loops but the space just isn't there.


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## Big Ed

The bigger the better, that goes for O too.

I would figure out how big of a spot you can have a layout and plan from the beginning using all the available space you have.
A lot start out smaller and almost always end up adding on eventually anyway. It is easier to start larger instead of adding on later.


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## amer/flyer

Guess I will go with the 5X8 or 9, that will also allow for accessories, buildings etc.
never thought of the tight turns. 

Thanks,
John


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## llskis

flyernut said:


> Flyer stuff likes to run on a 5X8 or 9 layout. 4X8 is too tight for 2 loops, but 5X8 or 9 works great. I mean, you can run a 4X8 but it's tight for additional things. On a 4X8, only the inside loop can have switches, from my experience. I remember as a kid trying my darn-est to run switches on both loops but the space just isn't there.


Beg to different with you but if you run the right type of track/switches you can do it with
eese. You have to get away from that dinosaur A/F track. See picture. Larry


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## flyernut

amer/flyer said:


> Guess I will go with the 5X8 or 9, that will also allow for accessories, buildings etc.
> never thought of the tight turns.
> 
> Thanks,
> John


Like Big Ed says, start with the largest layout available for the space you have. You're ALWAYS going to expand it, so why not start with the biggest you can have? I started with a 4x8, then went to 6x10, then 12x 10, then to it's final size, 12x12. Be prepared to spend money,lol!! That's a lot of space to put track, switches, and accessories in, but you have the rest of your life to do it..


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## amer/flyer

Larry, like the set-up, but I agree with flyernut, I am going with 5x8. Have the old track and 4 switches plus it also gives me room for any accessories which I would like to add in the future.


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## llskis

amer/flyer said:


> Larry, like the set-up, but I agree with flyernut, I am going with 5x8. Have the old track and 4 switches plus it also gives me room for any accessories which I would like to add in the future.


amer/fleyer: Sounds good with your idea but how does one build a 5 X 8'? Sounds a lot more
complicated that just getting a standard plywood of 4 X 8 to gain a mere 1'. Larry:dunno:


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## amer/flyer

Larry,

Wasn't sure what the standard size was, so it is 4x8. I am planning on getting a sheet of insulation to put on top also. I have 4 switches, have an oval now(2),1 inside of the other and working on a third. I like the way you have the track built up from on a small grade and back down. How do you do that? Is there a kit?


P.S. As you can tell I am looking for ideas from someone who has done this before.

ameri/flyer


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Standard AF curve sections are 20" radius -- a half loop (6 curves) is 40" wide -- on a 4' X 8' top, that leaves barely 4" per side when centered. And with that you cannot do much. Better to go to at minimum, a 5' wide table top. At least then you can slip a straight section in that half loop.


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## Big Ed

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Standard AF curve sections are 20" radius -- a half loop (6 curves) is 40" wide -- on a 4' X 8' top, that leaves barely 4" per side when centered. And with that you cannot do much. Better to go to at minimum, a 5' wide table top. At least then you can slip a straight section in that half loop.


An 8x8 sounds better.


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## llskis

amer/flyer said:


> Larry,
> 
> Wasn't sure what the standard size was, so it is 4x8. I am planning on getting a sheet of insulation to put on top also. I have 4 switches, have an oval now(2),1 inside of the other and working on a third. I like the way you have the track built up from on a small grade and back down. How do you do that? Is there a kit.
> 
> amer/flyer: The center section is the American Flyer All Aboard panels. These are often available on e-bay. You must have patience to work with them but once set they are perfect. Good Luck--Larry


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## amer/flyer

Thanks Don,

I was running the #302 tonight on the inside, the curves were tight and is difficult to keep the steamer on track, the #283 is on the outside larger oval, she runs fine with little problem, probably because of what you said, more straight sections. 8'x5' it is.

John


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## flyernut

big ed said:


> An 8x8 sounds better.


Yep.. If I was going to build a 5X8 foot deal, as long as I had the extra sheet of plywood, I would just go ahead and use the whole dang thing,lol... The only thing one has to be careful with is reach. It might be a little hard to reach the center portions of a 8X8.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Someone once offered a tip for using parallel tracks with standard Flyer track. At the time, only 20" radius curve section were available, since then, K-Line produced some 27" radius curves which can be found on eBay and some train shows. But to traverse the turns back when 20" was all there was, the tip was to insert half straight sections between each of the curve sections. This extended the turn radius and "smoothed" out the radius for the longer engines and it helped with laying those parallel tracks.


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## amer/flyer

I was toying around with the idea of cutting a center part out for operating and reach, should still have enough room. I am going to run o scale as well s scale on it with my Lionel ZW.

John


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## flyernut

llskis said:


> Beg to different with you but if you run the right type of track/switches you can do it with
> eese. You have to get away from that dinosaur A/F track. See picture. Larry
> 
> 
> View attachment 36160


If you're using the all aboard panels, we're comparing apples to oranges.Standard flyer track just doesn't work with a 4X8 sheet. That extra foot gives you plenty of wiggle room, but like Big Ed said, if you're going to buy an extra 4X8 sheet just for that extra 1 foot, I'd use that extra sheet as a 8X8. Just makes sense if you have the room.


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## llskis

flyernut said:


> If you're using the all aboard panels, we're comparing apples to oranges.Standard flyer track just doesn't work with a 4X8 sheet. That extra foot gives you plenty of wiggle room, but like Big Ed said, if you're going to buy an extra 4X8 sheet just for that extra 1 foot, I'd use that extra sheet as a 8X8. Just makes sense if you have the room.


flyernut: Will just agree to disagree. You guys make is sound so easy to just keep adding to the set for room. Well my friend that just don't happen in the real world. A/F radius will work well with the 4 X 8 standard plywood with the modern day track/switches. There is lot you can do on the inside of the loop. Also as indicated you run out of reach to correct the mishaps that will occur. To each his own; hope it works out. Larry


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## flyernut

llskis said:


> flyernut: Will just agree to disagree. You guys make is sound so easy to just keep adding to the set for room. Well my friend that just don't happen in the real world. A/F radius will work well with the 4 X 8 standard plywood with the modern day track/switches. There is lot you can do on the inside of the loop. Also as indicated you run out of reach to correct the mishaps that will occur. To each his own; hope it works out. Larry


Sure it's easy to add on, if you have the room. On a 4X8 sheet, the outer loop will have an half straight in between the 3 curves on each side of it. The inner loop will be the 6 curves with no half straight. All your action will be on the inner loop. Believe me, I watched my dad set up the trains on a 4X8, with the above mentioned set up, and that was all we could get on that sheet, safely. That was back in the early 50's. I believe your all aboard panels have a different radius curve, allowing you to have a different set up than with the standard flyer radius track. I think that's where the confusion sets in... Nuttin but flyer will have the answer!!.. As for expanding your layout in the real world not happening, sure it does; everyday and every year. My experiences started with my dad and flyers. We never expanded it from a 4X8 sheet as that's what we had for road. After dad sold the flyers, I got involved with Lionel for my youngest son. We started with a 4X8 with 2 reverse loops, a figure 8, etc. After he got used to running that, we went bigger and bigger, settling on a 12X12 Lionel layout with 5 loops of Lionel, K-line, and MTH. What a racket that made while running all five. After my youngest discovered girls, computers, and 4-wheelers, I pulled the O gauge stuff down and bought mega amounts of flyers. I still have 1 loop of O for my Allegheny and big boy engines.So, you can expand, given your ablility to have the extra room, and of course, your finances allowing you to have the stuff. To each his own.


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## llskis

flyernut said:


> Sure it's easy to add on, if you have the room.
> 
> flyernut: Always like your input-Thanks-
> 
> But you said the best/informative word on your response. It is:
> 
> 
> 
> "IF"


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## flyernut

llskis said:


> flyernut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it's easy to add on, if you have the room.
> 
> flyernut: Always like your input-Thanks-
> 
> But you said the best/informative word on your response. It is:
> 
> 
> 
> "IF"
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that little word can cause all sorts of whatever,lol... You probably have heard this before, but.... "if" is half of "life". Ya, I know, CORNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...


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## amer/flyer

I think that the less curves their are the easier it is running the engines.

John


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## amer/flyer

I agree, but in my case I have a small room, so probably 5x8or 8x8.


John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

If you are using the standard vintage Flyer track, once you start laying it out on 4' X 8', you'll see just how much room you DON'T have -- the loop will take every bit of that 4' side on your top and leave nothing more to work with. Sure you can do things inside the loop. But every turnout activity will have to occur on the straight sections along the 8' sides. And once they turn in, they will only be sidings. You cannot complete another loop with them unless they are joined at the opposite side or raised to another level.


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## amer/flyer

Don,

I am going with the large set-up 8x8, with a large cutout in the center for operations.
Might raise the track to another level. 


John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Sounds like a plan. Can't wait to see the track plan you finally create.


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## amer/flyer

Don,

Once I get the room cleaned out and moved, I can start on the layout, keep you
posted.

John


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## amer/flyer

Don,
I have a question, my problem is I am a perfectionist, there was a problem with the #302, wasn't running correctly. So I took it apart put new fingers in the tender and attached, sprayed it with electrical contact cleaner. Can't get to fire up. Engine runs fine,
any ideas?


P.S. Tanks for connecting me up with F.B. 


John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Let's take this one step at a time....when you say the engine runs fine, is that when direct connected? And have you attempted to run it in reverse direct connected?

If it runs fine in both directions when direct connected, the problem has to be in the tender or at the jackplate.

As much as I would like for you to discover the issue and correct it yourself, you are welcome to send it to me to look it over and see if I can find the problem. Chances are good that it probably is a wiring issue, the fingers may be affected - either incorrectly positioned or just not touching the drum or the wiring at the front and rear wheels. In any case, I'll gladly look it over, fix it and send it back. The only charge to you will be to send it to me. If you wish to continue to attempt repair, I'll stand by you and offer any assistance I can. Your choice.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

John --

Here are the Facebook pages for the group -- one is for Flyer the other is used for selling/trading Flyer. I contacted one of the members who said I should simply invite you.
So I suggest you just logonto Facebook in your own account and go to these pages and announce your interest using myname as an invite. I think you will be pleased with the postings and people on this group. Let me know if you have problems getting on.

Flyer Page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ame...malink/320358831448868/#!/groups/11332432410/

Flyer Swap Page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ame...358831448868/#!/groups/AmericanFlyerSwapMeet/


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## amer/flyer

Don,
The engine runs fine both directions, direct connected. It's like the tender insn't talking to the engine, the fingers are making contact, drum is working, I agree it may me the fingers or wiring. I'll keep in touch, thanks for the support. One question that is bothering me, can 2 wires be connected together and soldered to the same contact?


Thanks,
John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I would say yes, refer to the wiring diagram. It has been correct for many other people.

Be sure you have the fingers correctly installed --the offset pair goes on the top of the reverse unit and the centered pair goes on the front. If you have them reversed, it won't run, and you'll have to reinstall and resolder them.


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## amer/flyer

Thanks Don, I will clean up the 2 wires and the contact point and re-solder, plus cleanup the jack plate wiring.


John


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## amer/flyer

Thanks, Don, joined the group, waiting for a response.


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## amer/flyer

Don,

The #302 is running by direct connect forward and reverse, will not run with the tender, wiring is correct, could the wires be old? Has new fingers they are making contact. confused

John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Have you confirmed if the fingers are installed in the correct orientation -- offset ones on top of reverse unit, centered ones on front of it?

As long as any wire is not broken inside the insulation, it should conduct the electricity. You can check this with a multi-meter set for resistance. Check each wire with the multimeter probes at each end of a wire -- a good wire will read zero resistance. Be sure you are touching the same conductor at each end. When checking the ones to the jackplate, there are 4 conductors within that harness. It's important that you touch the same wire at each end to check for continuity. This will confirm if any are broken or not.

Be sure those fingers are actually touching the rotating drum. Sometimes it looks like they are, but they might be just shy of the surface. Check this by applying your power and touching each finger end with a toothpick to push it onto the drum surface. If the engine should pop back to life, you've found a bent finger. Just bend it slightly more to ensure drum contact.

I had an issue twice already since rebuilding these things where the finger contacts were a hair too long in that they missed the copper drum contact area, even though they were touching the drum itself. I had to rebend the finger contact strip to have more "curve" or "arch" to it so that the finger was actually shortened and contacted the drum in the right area. It can be time-consuming, but these are all things that need to be checked and sadly, rechecked.

Again, if you feel stumped, I'll gladly take a look at it for you. Just let me know and I'll forward my address to send it to me. I'll do so at no charge to you except for the shipping.


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## amer/flyer

Don,

The fingers are in the correct orientation, one thing I cannot understand, if I touch one of the fingers and a power source, it comes alive, top wire (left) looking from the back. Any ideas?

John


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## amer/flyer

Don,

Replaced a bad wire, now she will go in reverse but not forward. Fingers?


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## Big Ed

amer/flyer said:


> Don,
> 
> Replaced a bad wire, now she will go in reverse but not forward. Fingers?


Maybe another bad wire somewhere?


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## amer/flyer

Could be Ed, but they all look OK.


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## amer/flyer

Could be Ed, have to investigate.

John


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## Big Ed

Do you have a multi tester? Check for continuity.

Do you know how to use one?
There are tons of sites to show you how do a search, there are youtube videos too.

First one that came up in a search,
http://electrical.about.com/od/electricaltools/a/testcontinuity.htm

Maybe another wire is bad or the connection isn't good?


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## amer/flyer

Ed,

Yes, I have a multi-tester, I am constantly testing for continuity and voltage.
Found some problems, mostly wiring. I am not the best at using one but I am learning..

John


P.S. Thanks for the videos, Ed, they will help.


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## Big Ed

amer/flyer said:


> Ed,
> 
> Yes, I have a multi-tester, I am constantly testing for continuity and voltage.
> Found some problems, mostly wiring. I am not the best at using one but I am learning..
> 
> John
> 
> 
> P.S. Thanks for the videos, Ed, they will help.


I didn't post any videos?

Here is one. Four part video, for using the multi tester. I did not watch them and there are more. This one should give you the basics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7WHaL_dz8


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## amer/flyer

OK, Ed, links to youtube videos

John


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## amer/flyer

Hi Don, 

I have a question, the #302 engine does what it is supposed to do, when I attach the tender, the tender works, engine does not until I Touch 1 of the brushes with the 2nd from right, looking from the back, but it still runs in reverse. Checked all wires, replaced a couple. Any ideas?

John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Not sure what you mean "touch one of the brushes"...does this mean while the jackplug is in place? Are you touching the wire for this one connection on the jackplate - or at the brush end? Or is this using some other means to try to get it to run? Sorry but I'm confused what you did to this point.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I looked back a couple of postings to see where we are....you may have a finger not quite touching the drum surface, only a guess at this point in time. If this is an issue, try applying power to the tender and push down on each copper strip of the fingers with a toothpick. If any were not touching, they will when you do this and hopefully the engine will run.

Did we ever determine if the engine runs both forward and reverse with a direct connection -- that is without the tender using the diagram I posted -- directly applying the power at the jackplate?


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## amer/flyer

Don,

You are correct, 1 finger is not touching the drum, engine runs forward and reverse direct connect. Leave it to me to do something stupid, I was putting 1 of the small bolts on the wheels I striped it and it broke off. I drilled the old part out with a small bit to put another small bolt or screw in. Could I have hurt anything? It still runs.

John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

As long as you got all of the original bolt out and did not ruin the threads, you should be able to replace it with the same kind. Some of those are shoulder screws for a reason. So it depends which one you broke. Be sure to replace with an EXACT type. Port Lines has them in stock and they are cheap--probably pay more for it to be shipped. I probably have one laying around too, if you tell me which one, I can send it.

If you plan to do work on these engines, it might be wise to start a parts inventory as I have. I purchased a bunch of plastic cases with sections/dividers inside and use these to store the parts. They are just the right size to include an 8-1/2" X 11" sheet of paper on the lid with a key of the contents, showing part number, size, etc.


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## amer/flyer

Don.

Good Idea, I have a small plastic container which I am starting to use for that purpose. PA5447 just need 1.

Thanks
John


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Are you going to order one or do you wish me to send one?

FYI - Many engines utilize the same hardware for certain items. These screws are probably used on several engines. If you have another basket case engine sitting around, take the screw from there until you get a replacement.


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## amer/flyer

Don,

Could you send me a couple part PA5447 hex screws?

Thanks, John
P.S. let me know how much.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I'll have to check and see what I have - will let you know. Also PM your address, don't think I have it.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I have a few of these laying around - how many you want? Port Lines charges a $1.00 each for these -- I will too. But the postage will be cheap as I'll just drop them in a padded envelope.


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## amer/flyer

Don, I just need 2 of them, $2.00 for both?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Yup....on their way to you.


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