# A fresh start



## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Hello folks,

I'm just pulling out my old O-gauge kit, started by my grandfather in the 1920's, vastly expanded by my father in the late 1940's / early 1950's, and used heavily by a 30 years younger version of myself in the 1970's/80's. My son just turned 4, and remembering playing with the Lionel kit with my father around that same age, I decided it was about time I start assembling a rig.

To keep it special (and access limited, at this age), my plan is a Christmas tree platform, to start. I have in the collection eight 022 switches (4L / 4R) with automatic switch controllers, some old 711 switches (which I do not recall ever using), a few magnetic tracks used for automatic couplers and dump cars (log carrier, etc.), a log conveyor, some towers and signals, etc. I also have my father's beloved ZW transformer, late 1940's vintage (I assume), which will power the rig.

Here's my first concept sketch, and I'm looking for critique and/or suggestions on what might be done differently or better. Our typical tree is 10' tall x 6' diameter, placed in the corner of the room. I plan to make the platform out of 3/4" Baltic Birch ply (13-ply stuff used for wood fixturing), which comes in 60" x 60" sheets, which should be a good size for the space. The tree will sit on an elevated platform / plateau, represented by the green circle. The tree stand is represented by the big green "+". Some of the tracks will pass below this plateau as tunnels, so I'm going to be looking for some simple and durable ways to skirt this little plateau with stone walls and/or grassy hills.

I plan to lop one corner off, and mount the ZW to it, so the transformer is removable from the set. This will aid in portability, as well as preventing too-young kids from powering the rig, when dad's not around. In fact, I'd like to move the automatic switch controllers to the removable control board, but that will call for a larger control board and larger connector between the control board and track board.

The red lines represent the switch signal wiring, and you will note that I have only four auto switch controllers for six switches. I did not see a point in having separate controllers for each switch in a change-over pair, but then again, haven't really thought thru the powering of those tracks and switches. I can power all of the switches using 14V from one of the aux channels on the ZW, but assume there may still be some tricks to wiring a single auto switch controller to two switches on separate loops.

Here it is... what did I do right and wrong?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

O22 switches can be wired in parallel so it's not necessary to have a control for each switch. Also, if the train direction is such the non-derail feature will flip the switch for you and no control wiring is needed. 
So in the example above if you are not going to reverse directions you need only wire a control to the first switch of the crossover pair as the non-derail will flip the second switch automatically.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks, areizman. I figure the extra wire is easy enough, and there's a high likelihood I'll be running both directions. My main concern was that these two loops will be on separate track speed controls (channels A and D on my ZW controller), and I don't recall ever wiring two switches in parallel, that were on separate control circuits.

I haven't reviewed the schematics of the 022 switches, in order to see if there's any trouble with doing this, but perhaps I should see if I can find one. I'm an EE by profession, but have not looked at a Lionel train wiring schematic since I was probably 14 years old, so I really remember very little about the specifics.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

This will work fine. The switches are activated by the return (U) connection witch is common to all tracks and controls. They can be powered off the center rail or more desirably from a separate power source, (C or B) on your ZW. I use 18v from one of my ZWs to power my switches.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So... any comments on the overall layout? How about on the walls or hills, for that tree stand platform in the middle? How high should I set the tree stand plateau above the main platform (what's the typical clearance height for tunnels)?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

6-6 1/2" clearance is the minimum for me.

I like the double loops. You can run two trains at a time and have sidings for a station and a freight accessory. Very good plan.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

A normal tunnel portal for O is 6 1/2' high. (from the center) and 5 1/4" wide.
That is the measurements on the one pictured. You could even make them say 7" high by 5 1/2' or 6" wide if you want.

A ten foot tree and your going to raise it up on a platform.
How high are your ceilings? :dunno:

The mountains can be made from old screen and plaster if you want. There are many ways to do it, but you want to consider the weight into this.
I use plaster cloth over old packing foam, mixed with a thin layer of plaster over the cloth. Some of the bulges you see are balled up newspaper underneath plaster cloth.The foam and cloth is lighter then the screen. 

Check out my ROCK. Maybe you can use some ideals from it?
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5314


For on the sides of the mountain to look like a retaining wall in spots made out of stone or wood you can use old foam. The foam that comes with meat/chicken parts can be washed and transformed into rock. Making them out of the foam trays is a lot lighter then the portal I have pictured. As your going to be moving this layout all the weight you can save when you build it will make it easier to move when you have to.

See the first picture in this thread, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=13154 

That rock retaining wall is made from the foam trays that chicken come on. The yellow trays, you know what I mean? You beat them up a little then paint, they take paint well. Then just glue them on.
If you go a little further into the thread you will see the pieces of foam I used for a base.
I should have taken a little more time carving in the block but you will get the ideal.
The original foam blocks I made were changed, I then used the trays that mushroom comes in. I will use the first ones I made in another project.
Look around at the foam that comes packed with things like TV's and the like. They all can be made into something and carve and take paint well and they are light weight. Some may even have the portal (tunnel) shapes you are looking for already.

Best of all everything but the plaster cloth is free, it is garbage that you would normally throw away. 
Helps the planet stay green. :thumbsup:


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Come back and post a photo when it's all done. Nothing brightens up the holiday spirit like a festive train around the tree. 

FYI, my family is Jewish but my brothers both set up 'holiday trees' in their homes just so they can run their trains around them.  
One has a cathedral ceiling and he puts up a 20 footer!  
But He's the black sheep of the family with LGB running under that tree. :laugh:


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## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

With a 20 foot tree, he *needs* at least LGB size.

Or better yet, Lionel Standard Gauge.

Or maybe even 6" gauge live steam...


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks, guys! This is a huge help.



big ed said:


> A ten foot tree and your going to raise it up on a platform.
> How high are your ceilings? :dunno:


Tree goes in our old summer kitchen, which was rebuilt by a previous owner, sans second floor. So, the ceiling is now the original roof line up to the collar ties, 14' above the floor. It comes down to about 9 feet, where it meets the walls. So, depending on how far we place the tree from the corner of the room...









That there is the future operator of this rail line.


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## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

When I put a train around my tree,
first I cut off some of the lowest branches
so that there is plenty of clearance.
Don't want branches, ornaments, tinsel
all over the trains and track.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I imagine tinsel could be exciting on an energized track.


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## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

When I first drug out my childhood train set I spent quite a while unwinding tinsel from the wheels and axels.:eyes:
Randy


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

FM Trainmaster said:


> I imagine tinsel could be exciting on an energized track.


Maybe the old tinsel, the stuff they use now just gets up into the motor, I have come across antique tinsel in a old motor, enough to stop the wheels from turning.

You look handsome all decked out in your Sunday clothes. 

I know,,I know.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

haha... poor kid, he looks just like I did at that age.

We don't use tinsel on our tree, and now have a good reason to never do this!

I have to call around and find myself a sheet or two of 60" x 60" Baltic Birch ply. The place where I used to buy it doesn't sell retail anymore.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I just realized I have my track spacing far too close, between the inner and outer loops, at less than 3" center-to-center rails. Most quote a minimum 6" for center-to-center, although it seems some have gotten away with less.

What do you folks use for your minimum rail spacing, both in straights and curves? I'd like to find a table of what's been tested, for various curve radii.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You don't need 6", but 4.5 to 5 inches would be a lot safer. You'll have some contact as close as you are. 

Another point is track spacing is dependent on the curves you use as well as the length of locomotives and rolling stock. A scale Big Boy on O31 curves needs a LOT of track spacing!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You don't need 6", but 4.5 to 5 inches would be a lot safer. You'll have some contact as close as you are.
> 
> Another point is track spacing is dependent on the curves you use as well as the length of locomotives and rolling stock. A scale Big Boy on O31 curves needs a LOT of track spacing!


I will second this recommendation. 

If it is just normal sized trains you have I think you could be safe with 4".

You never said what trains you have. Did you? 
You just said your pulling out your "train kit", what does the "kit" consist of?
What locomotive number do you have?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

With a name like FM Trainmaster, I have an idea!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi big ed,

I intentionally left that info out, because I honestly don't remember. They're all packed away safely at mom's, and I won't get my hands on them until Thanksgiving. There is an FM Trainmaster in the group, and several smaller (2-4-2 thru 2-6-4) locomotives with tenders. There is also one very large steamer, at least 4-8-4, if not larger. I never used that loco, since I never had a track that it could navigate.

I think I could fit one O-42 loop on this new layout, but no larger. I'm very anxious for mom to bring this stuff with her, so I can get a look at that loco, and figure out if it could even negotiate O-42 curves. I think that one loco is why I have some O-72 switches in my box of track.

As a kid, my brother, sister, and myself each took responsibility for one engine, and called it "ours". Mine was the FM Trainmaster.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well it sounds like you won't have to worry about running some of them.

The FM will look nice sitting on a shelf.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

big ed said:


> Well it sounds like you won't have to worry about running some of them.
> 
> The FM will look nice sitting on a shelf.


What do you mean? I never had trouble running the FM on our other O-31 tracks and switches.

From http://www.trainz.com/t-fm_diesels.aspx:
"The inner wheels on both trucks were flangeless, allowing the engine to negotiate O-31 curves despite its length."


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

We need pictures when you get them. I think the Trainmaster will run on the o-31 curves, I never tried it on mine because it hits the scenery on the turns. Do you remember what model Trainmaster? If not I can wait till thanksgiving!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

It's the gray Lackawanna, identical to this one, but with the gray roof instead of the red. My father was born in 1940, and this was his, so I suspect it was purchased 1948 - 1952 timeframe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-2321-Lackawana-FM-Train-Master-Type-1-1954-/331066152794

What's interesting is the newer FM Trainmaster manuals all state O-36 minimum, but there are plenty of claims that the older ones ran on O-31. Aside from a collection of old O-27 track we never used, I only own O-31 track, so I know that's what we always ran ours on.

I might have photos on my HDD at home. Will have to look this weekend. Otherwise... Thanksgiving.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Found 'em! Also figured out why the old FM Trainmasters would run O-31, whereas the new ones are supposed to require O-36. This old one has a six wheel truck, whereas the newer ones are documented with eight wheel trucks.

These are in pretty rough shape, and will need some clean-up work. Like I said, grandpa and dad's, then I played with them as a kid. Likely, no one has cleaned these since my dad was a kid in the late 1940's.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Looked up some info on these, in order of age:

1668: Pre-war (1937-1941), apparently came with O-27 kit?
763-E Hudson: Pre-war (1937-1942)
675 K-4 Pacific: Post-war (1947-1952)
2321 Lackawanna: Post-war (1954-1956)


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

nice, lots of good, desirable stuff. They look to be in pretty good shape. I've cleaned up much worse. They should run another 70+ years.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

763-E, You know what the E stands for? (hint a name)
How much do you want for that old, battered, rusted, rotting apart locomotive, along with the old, rusted, battered, rotten tender?
That poor train looks like it has one foot in the grave! :SELLIT:

I read your post wrong I should have meant this one would look good on the shelf.
You said....There is also one very large steamer, at least 4-8-4, if not larger. I never used that loco, since I never had a track that it could navigate.

But if it is the 763-E that you meant that would look horrible on a shelf. :SELLIT:

I don't see a 4-8-4? Did you mean a 4-6-4?

Dam...your like a little kid at Christmas waiting for Thanksgiving now huh?
You have me there along side you waiting too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Is this the 763-E in the picture?
I don't see why that wouldn't run through the same curve as the FM.

The FM looks larger then the 736. ? :dunno:

Unless your talking about a 4-8-4 that your not showing in the picture?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

big ed said:


> 763-E, You know what the E stands for? (hint a name)


No idea!



big ed said:


> How much do you want for that old, battered, rusted, rotting apart locomotive, along with the old, rusted, battered, rotten tender?


Not for sale. None of these are worth enough to consider selling, over sentimental value.



big ed said:


> I read your post wrong I should have meant this one would look good on the shelf.
> You said....There is also one very large steamer, at least 4-8-4, if not larger. I never used that loco, since I never had a track that it could navigate.
> 
> But if it is the 763-E that you meant that would look horrible on a shelf. :SELLIT:
> ...


Yes. It would appear the 14 year old version of my memory is not accurate. This 4-6-4 is the large loco of which I speak. I recall it would never run O-31 curves. The FM Trainmaster might be bigger, but it has two articulated short trucks, which go quite well around O-31.


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## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

That is a VERY nice group of trains! If you Looked them up on e-bay, you may be shocked at what they are worth. That being said, NEVER sell them! (I would say sell them to me but they are beyond my pay grade). 
Clean them up and get them running and ENJOY them! And take pictures and maybe some videos so we can enjoy them with you!
Randy


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I don't think I'd spend $2k on a toy train I use a few times per year with the kids, but I won't be retiring on any of these:

763-E: $400 - $2000 [1]
FM Trainmaster: $450 - $550 [2]


[1] - http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...63-e+prewar&_nkw=lionel+763-e+prewar&_sacat=0

[2] - http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...nkw=lionel+FM+Trainmaster+lackawanna&_sacat=0


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## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

I guess its all a matter of perspective. I have built almost my entire collection from junk boxes and bargains I have found. I have rarely spent more than 50$ on anything. To me, trains of the quality that you have are probably out of my reach. Sorry if i sounded a little over excited about value, it really means nothing to someone who plans on keeping them anyhow. I hope they run under your family Christmas tree for many years to come.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I was/ am excited. I never seen a 763 e, I can't afford a lot Eaither. I would never spend that on one peice but if i got a deal! Save them and pass them down to the kids! Nothing can beat the memories.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You better fix it up then. It is a shame it is sitting there all rusted up and dirty.
Or you will get a visit from the abused train squad.

I will be waiting for your fixer upper thread on all. :smokin:


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

hah... thanks, guys! I've spent most of my adult life restoring things (vintage cars, a 1959 woodie racing boat, countless turn of the century woodworking machines...), so the clean up on these is right up my alley. While some of the knicks and scrapes on the FM Trainmaster might have been from a younger version of me, I don't think I've seen that 763-E since I was maybe 4 years old! They will definitely be properly cleaned up, and any broken bits replaced from ebay or remade.

Talked with mom tonight, and she's bringing them with her on Thursday. I guess I need to get my hands on some O-42 and O-54 track, to see how that 763-E handles it. I had planned on all O-31 curves (my good working switches are all 022's), but if that loco will swing O-42, I'm going to have to find a way to get that track on the platform.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Maybe it will go through the switches, or you can run it on a larger outside loop, no need to switch tracks with that train, just the others.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Way late on this, but I think big ed was saying the "E" stands for "Ed", in the 763-E. :laugh:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Way late on this, but I think big ed was saying the "E" stands for "Ed", in the 763-E. :laugh:


Boy it sure takes you a while, didn't I throw enough hints?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

There are never enough hints, for some of us.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Okay guys and gals... they are here. So far, I've only pulled out the FM Trainmaster and the 763-E, and put power to each with the ZW and a few pieces of straight track strung together.

They both run! The Trainmaster runs very well, and the 763-E is a little less smooth. In fact, I sometimes have to give it a nudge to start, but what's to be expected in a train from the 1930's, that may have not run since the 1950's?

Next up... mechanical comb-thru. Gotta get things cleaned and lubed. I'd like to get them working nicely by Christmas, along with the other 2 or 3 smaller loco's and dozens of cars, still to be un-boxed. I might find time over the Christmas holiday to do some proper disassembly and cleaning, after they're all in good running shape.

Some "before" photos:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I wonder why the locomotive looks twice the age of the tender?

I think it looks good as it sits, it has a weathered look to it.

Warm water mixed with a little Dawn soap on a soft rag will clean it up.
Use Qtips to get in the nooks and crannies. Go gently around any lettering.

Don't run it/both/any of them anymore till you get them lubed. Most of us use motor oil (5/20 or 5/30)on everything.
Not too much a few drops here and there.
The worms gears get lube.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I suspect the aging is cast vs. sheetmetal, and the reaction of the paints and primers to each. The other side of the tender is missing some paint, but it's bright and shiny (almost polished nickel) where the paint is missing.

Yep... no more running, just wanted to get operational status. On oil, I'd always read it was best to not use a detergent oil (eg. motor oil) on stuff like this, so I'll be lubing with non-detergent spindle and way oils, which I stock by the gallon for maintaining my small army of antique woodworking equipment.

Re: worm gears... oil or a dab of light grease? If oil, I have some nice sticky way oil (with tackifier) that I suspect would work well on something like this.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

White lithium, or some use petroleum jelly on the worm gears. The stuff Lionel used years ago worked fine for a while.
Many moons later they found that the stuff hardened like cement even going as far to stop the gears from turning.

Everything else just gets a few well placed drops of oil.

Clean the pickup rollers and the wheels good too. (the part of the wheel that sits on the rail.)
I would take the brush plate off and clean the face of the armature and see how the brushes are also. Clean out the slots on it too.
Axle bushings take a little oil too.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

There in very good shape! A bunch of guys here use strictly motor oil. I've done the same without problems. Wite lithium grease on the worm gears. After there all oiled up and run for a bit they'll run smoothly. Nice!


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

For gears, which really do need a bit more than just oil, I use a 50/50 mix of motor oil and light grease.

The motor oil pretty much prevents the grease from drying out.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks, guys! Will follow your advice, Ed.


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