# Light schematic needed



## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Anyone have a schematic for a light circuit to keep lights from flickering, may be a capacitor.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

A rectifier and capacitor. GunRunnerJohn has a light circuit, I think. This is a basic one, but this assumes the LED has a built in resistor, and you want a capacitor in parallel with the LED. 35V 500-1000uf, minus towards the bottom. BTW, that will work with a lightbulb, too. It just may not be as bright with rectified voltage, but it won't flicker.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Tom gave a good summary. But what lights? A horde of incandescent passenger cars" A loco headlight? LED lighting?


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

incandescent passenger car


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Can we assume you want to power each separately?

If you're rewiring one or more cars I recommend changing to LED, but it's not necessary and completely your choice.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The first step in getting lights not to flicker is to give all the track, wheels and pickup rollers a good cleaning to get rid of any rust and dirt. Clean rust with a ScotchBrite pad, and finish off everything with a rag and Q tips soaked in Naphtha. That should minimize flickering. 


Larry


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

To cover the obvious two rollers are better than one.

Meaning you will have more flicker with only one roller on a car.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's a schematic of an LED module that will give you flicker-free lighting, DCS compatibility, and intensity adjustment.









It's what is used for my LED Lighting Regulator.


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## SoShoresGuy (Jan 23, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Here's a schematic of an LED module that will give you flicker-free lighting, DCS compatibility, and intensity adjustment.


I have been a little confused in the past about your regulator. Will this work with conventional (old school) equipment? I run exclusively pre-war and I am currently using an RW transformer. I have added lights to my 603s and 604 and I am in the process of "restoring" some 610s and a 612. I would like flicker free and a POT. Would your regulator be overkill for my needs? 

TIA.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're talking about a single LED application, you can do those with a simpler scheme. Basically a diode, capacitor, and the CL2 constant current regulator.

So, if you can be more specific about the application in detail, I can probably provide more focused answers.


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## SoShoresGuy (Jan 23, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you're talking about a single LED application, you can do those with a simpler scheme. Basically a diode, capacitor, and the CL2 constant current regulator.
> 
> So, if you can be more specific about the application in detail, I can probably provide more focused answers.


Just some pre war passenger cars (and maybe caboose) for interior LED lighting. LED strips, flicker free (capacitor), AC to DC (diode) and a potentiometer (POT) to adjust the light output level I am looking for. Pretty basic stuff. I use early post war transformers (RW-110 & KW) if that helps.

I like the idea of using PCBs to cut down on a wiring mess inside the cars.

TIA


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> LED Lighting Regulator[/URL].
> 
> View attachment 522828


I don't want to hi-jack the thread if the answer is complicated.

I just received a new batch of 5 of the tiny MP series buck regulators. The trim pot in the first one I tested was "flaky" by my eye. I couldn't dial in any voltage between ~4 V and ~8 V. A big jump in the regulated voltage no matter how I fiddled with the pot. I used a 18 V DC supply for testing.

Do you find this style trim pot to be problematic?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

SoShoresGuy said:


> Just some pre war passenger cars (and maybe caboose) for interior LED lighting. LED strips, flicker free (capacitor), AC to DC (diode) and a potentiometer (POT) to adjust the light output level I am looking for. Pretty basic stuff. I use early post war transformers (RW-110 & KW) if that helps.
> 
> I like the idea of using PCBs to cut down on a wiring mess inside the cars.
> 
> TIA


Running conventional gets a bit tricky with the LED's. What I had one guy do is jumper out one of the LED's in each group of three to lower the voltage requirements of the string, then the conventional track voltage was enough to light the cars.

The problem is, you can either have a step-down or a step-up, having both is more expensive and also a larger footprint supply. In order for my board to light the "standard" 12V LED strips, you need around 9-10 VAC on the track. If you jumper out one LED, it's down to around 6-7 VAC on the track.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Millstonemike said:


> I don't want to hi-jack the thread if the answer is complicated.
> 
> I just received a new batch of 5 of the tiny MP series buck regulators. The trim pot in the first one I tested was "flaky" by my eye. I couldn't dial in any voltage between ~4 V and ~8 V. A big jump in the regulated voltage no matter how I fiddled with the pot. I used a 18 V DC supply for testing.
> 
> ...


In general the pot has worked out fine. However, it's somewhat hard to adjust, so the next production run I may switch to a different style. I just have to find one small enough not to alter the footprint.


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## SoShoresGuy (Jan 23, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Running conventional gets a bit tricky with the LED's. What I had one guy do is jumper out one of the LED's in each group of three to lower the voltage requirements of the string, then the conventional track voltage was enough to light the cars.
> 
> The problem is, you can either have a step-down or a step-up, having both is more expensive and also a larger footprint supply. In order for my board to light the "standard" 12V LED strips, you need around 9-10 VAC on the track. If you jumper out one LED, it's down to around 6-7 VAC on the track.


Thanks, John. That explanation helps.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The problem is, you can either have a step-down or a step-up, having both is more expensive and also a larger footprint supply. In order for my board to light the "standard" 12V LED strips, you need around 9-10 VAC on the track. If you jumper out one LED, it's down to around 6-7 VAC on the track.


There are 5 V LED strips with all their LED/resistor pairs in parallel. I have some and tested them with the MP style buck regulators on a convectional transformer at minimum throttle. 

You only need about 5 V AC on the track to light the strip as the the rectified voltage is ~ 7 V. For conventional operation the throttle jumps from 0 V to ~6 V AC on application of the throttle (w/ the exception of modern partial sine wave transformers) . And you can light as many LEDs as you like subject to the regulators' rating (and the size of the bypass capacitor at the lowest throttle settings). 

With a buck regulator, the 5 V strips are more energy efficient then the 12 V strips. Less energy is dissipated in the 5 V resistors than in the 12 V LED resistors.

Think of it this way. Given the same LED and the same level of brightness yields an identical current draw. But the 5 V strips' lower value resistors will have lower voltage drops than the 12 V strips' resistors. Hence lower dissipated power in the resistor.

P = I squared X R


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

*experiment*

I tried a 2200uf and a wave bridge with incandescent bulb. Still no good. Running conventional ac, if I use LEDs I need regulation right? Not sure how that will help me. The cap is doing all of the storage.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

An LED lighting configuration can extend the "on time" by an order of magnitude to avoid flicker.

Consider a single incandescent bulb using 250 ma at 12 V. That's 3 W. Compare that to, say, 4 LEDs using 10 ma (40 ma total). At 5 V, that's 0.2 W. That's a 15 fold savings on the cap's reserve energy.

Plus, the capacitor is charged up to track voltage. With the track power at 12 V AC, a bridge will charge an unloaded capacitor up to ~ 17V DC. If using a buck regulator with 5 V LED strips, that extra voltage differential is energy in the cap to extend the holdover time (i.e., the regulator can provide a steady output while the cap's voltage decreases as it discharges after the power loss).

The video: ~12 V AC "track power" via conventional Marx transformer. A Buck regulator with bridge and on board 1000 uf cap. A strip of four 3528 LEDs in warm white (see the chart, below). I had these dialed down to ~10 ma each, 40 a total load at ~3.25 V DC to the strip.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

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gunrunnerjohn said:


> In general the pot has worked out fine. However, it's somewhat hard to adjust, so the next production run I may switch to a different style. I just have to find one small enough not to alter the footprint.


There's these single turn, 20% tolerance styles in standard resistances (5K ohms linked) available in single quantities from Digikey. 

The problem with the style on the existing boards I received is they're all over 20 % tolerance. Bourns makes that style but they're all out of stock at digikey in single quantities.

And the linked Bourns are 4 to 5 times the price of those cheap trim pots..


A Bourns at 20%tolerance with a footprint of 2.8 mm x 2.5 mm.

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/bourns-inc/3312J-1-502E/3312J-1-502ECT-ND/1880826

And another Bourns with a slightly larger footprint at 3.5 mm x 3.2 mm.

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/bourns-inc/3313J-1-502E/3313J-502ECT-ND/612900


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

ennisdavis said:


> I tried a 2200uf and a wave bridge with incandescent bulb. Still no good. Running conventional ac, if I use LEDs I need regulation right? Not sure how that will help me. The cap is doing all of the storage.


Can you post a diagram of what you did? 2200uf is big but should still work. What kind of bulb is it... seems it would be drawing a lot of current to drain that cap.

LEDs will require a resistor if they don't have it built in, but you could also use a regulator (LED driver thingy) like the one John mentioned.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, I'm going to do the next run, (which will not happen for some time, I have hundreds of modules still in stock!), with this part. There's room for it, and it looks like a decent quality part.

Rectangular - 0.142" x 0.134" Face x 0.079" H


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Here's another short video showing a 5 V, 145 LED string being lit at the lowest track power from my Marx 45 W transformer: ~6.2 V AC. Towards the end of video the string is lit at 12 V AC from the transformer. With the massive cap storing energy, you can still detect the holdover when power is cut at that voltage. 

Note: the dimming after initial brightness is the camera adjusting for the light from the LEDs.

The string voltage was set to ~3.4 V DC out of the adjustable buck regulator. The DC-DC regulator is fronted by a bridge rectifier (SMD part) and a huge 6800 uf cap (the smallest on hand in the parts box).

At 3.4 V DC, the LEDS are driven at ~10 ma each. So the 145 LED string is drawing ~1.5 amps DC from the regulator. That's ~5 W total power required for all 145 LEDs. At 12 V the transformer sees less than a 0.5 A load. The buck regulator is 85%-90% efficient at converting the rectified 12 V AC to 3.4 V DC. So the higher voltage from the transformer equates to a proportional lower current draw.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

What size resistor?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> What size resistor?


What type of bulbs: incandescent or LED? If LED, what voltage was specified for the bulb?

And there are 2, correct? You'll need a resistor for each one.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

I will replace orig. With leds, the are 1.8-3.3v right? So i would need a 14ohm resistor??? Pics and a schematic would be nice


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Hold on. Slow the roll. The light bulbs will work, if everything is wired right, so get them working first before you try to introduce another piece to the puzzle.

It's difficult (impossible) to see exactly what you've wired in your picture. Back it out a little bit so we can see all the wires... and it would be helpful to straighten them up a little so we can see how everything is wired.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Here's a pic.... excuse the mess, I tried to edit it quickly in paint with embarrassing results. The LED can be substituted by your bulb(s), the resistor is not needed for the bulb.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> I will replace orig. With leds, the are 1.8-3.3v right? So i would need a 14 ohm resistor??? Pics and a schematic would be nice


A 14 ohm resistor is way to low for an miniature LED replacement bulb. I'd look at something in the several hundred ohm range: 1 resistor for each LED replacement bulb. And a minimum of 1/2 W power rating, 1 W would be better.

LED voltages are dependent on their color (semiconductor physics). For example, red LEDs are in the 2.0+ V range while white LEDs are in the 3.3 V range. That's part of the resistor value calculation.

Next is the type of LED (4 digit number, see chart, below). That determines the range of current required for the LEDs light output.

Without a voltage regulator, your LED replacement bulb will behave like the incandescent bulbs - brightness dependent on track voltage. So you have to pick a resistor to span the expected track voltages.

Here's the equation given your bridge/cap circuit: R ohms = ((AC track voltage * 1.4) - LED V) / desired current

For example, if you need 20 ma into the LED at a track voltage of 10 V AC, then:

((10 * 1.4)-3.3) / .02 = 535 ohms (or the closest common value).

Lastly, most 3 V LED miniature replacement bulbs are targeted at flashlight replacement. Thus, they are designed to have a narrow beam focus. Not the best facing up in your passenger cars. That's why we use LED strips for even lighting throughout the car. The strips come with a peel off adhesive backing to apply on the inside of the roof along the length of the car.

*PM me your address.* I'll send you some parts I have on hand to play with: a 510 ohm, 1 W resistor so you can test with a 3V LED replacement bulb and a 12 V strip. You can try that with your existing circuit (the strips have built in resistors - just hook up to the output of your cap paying attention to polarity).


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

I think one problem is that my car only came with one pickup. Lionel cheaped out. I will try a jumbo led tonight with resistor. Should more cap charging, ie light staying on longer.


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## SoShoresGuy (Jan 23, 2013)

You guys lost me about eleven posts ago.
All I am looking for is to replace the incandescent bulbs in my pre war cars with LEDs, flicker free and the ability to adjust the lighting (pot) to a desired level.
I have conventional transformers, and I usually use the lugs that produce between 6v and 15v AC. I have modified the transformers by removing the rectifier disks and replacing them with a diode. Also, replacing the resistor wire with an actual resistor, but I'm pretty sure that the results are close to OEM levels.
So, will John's module work with 5v LEDs or do I need to go a different route and maybe make my own with some off the shelf PCBs? Just asking.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

The small leds work ok, cant get the jumbos to work for some reason.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Pic of led experiment


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Figured it out with the jumbos, guess the problem........


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Polarity was reversed? I don't see a resistor. How many AC volts are driving the bridge?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

SoShoresGuy said:


> You guys lost me about eleven posts ago.
> All I am looking for is to replace the incandescent bulbs in my pre war cars with LEDs, flicker free and the ability to adjust the lighting (pot) to a desired level.
> I have conventional transformers, and I usually use the lugs that produce between 6v and 15v AC. I have modified the transformers by removing the rectifier disks and replacing them with a diode. Also, replacing the resistor wire with an actual resistor, but I'm pretty sure that the results are close to OEM levels.
> So, will John's module work with 5v LEDs or do I need to go a different route and maybe make my own with some off the shelf PCBs? Just asking.


Yes, that my module works fine with lower voltage LED's.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Voltage and polarity not a problem, guess again....need clues


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Polarity is always a consideration, but it shouldn't be a problem to wire them in the correct polarity.  Voltage isn't an issue with my module, it's a constant current module and it just adjusts the voltage until the current level is achieved.


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## SoShoresGuy (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks John. All the info I need. Now, on to Henning's to get a couple of your modules.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Here is the clue


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Led experiment was a failure. Still flickers. One problem is the lack of dual pickups


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

ennisdavis said:


> Led experiment was a failure. Still flickers. One problem is the lack of dual pickups


I'm not sure I agree, but need to have a diagram. Driving an Led with 2200uf? Should be plenty.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Tom_C said:


> I'm not sure I agree, but need to have a diagram. Driving an Led with 2200uf? Should be plenty.


I would agree. In my video, 4 LEDS w/6600 uf stayed lit long enough that you could visual detect the delay after power was cut. 1 LED with 2200 uf would stay lit longer to avoid an intermittent contact, but perhaps not a section of isolated center rail in a switch or the like.

But, Ennis is not using a buck regulator as I was (way more efficient than a linear regulator or simple resistor). With the buck regulator, the cap can rise to a DC voltage well above the LED's needs (Cap DC V = 1.4 * AC track voltage). The buck regulator will power the LED while the cap discharges down to about 5.5 V DC. That gives you extra time-flicker avoidance.

I have prewar passenger cars with only 1 roller for the light. I've been debating adding a second roller, or, running a wire between each car to tie all the pickups together. After all, that's the way the railroads supplied electric for lighting in passenger cars - from a generator in the baggage car.

LED was in the ultraviolet range?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's very difficult to keep even LED's on for a long period without using a supercap, especially for a single pickup car. Going slowly over a switch is a test of energy storage.

If you want long term power off lighting, I'd probably be looking at something like my YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement technology.

The YLB takes in track power and first uses a linear regulator to charge a 5V supercap. Then the supercap voltage is used to drive a boost regulator to generate the higher voltage for the Railsounds board to bridge power interruptions. This kind of design would allow many seconds of power interruption before the lights went out. It's also a lot more complicated.

As a lower tech version of that, you could use the 5V LED strips and use a 5V regulator that drives those strips and also charges a parallel 5V supercap. In the absence of track power, the supercap would keep the lights on.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

*Led movie*

Movie of led lights. Guess i can add a 5v reg


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Looks like you have significant problems with the track/roller pickup. It seemed the only time the LEDs went full bright was on the curves.

Go back to Train Larry's post - post #6.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

BTW: No need to zip the MP4 movie file. The video compression algorithm takes all the excess out. If you look at WinZip's stat.'s the raw MP4 file was 8.01 MB, the zipped file was 8.00 MB (likely from compressing the file's meta data header not actual video data).


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Agreed. From the video you can tell the cap is doing it's job. The fact that there is no real 'flicker' but just a slow dim until it gets a new jolt of juice says the circuit is working correctly.

Added a regulator won't help, in fact IMO it will make it worse since you'll only have 5v to drain instead of whatever higher voltage you're getting from the full track power. Adding another roller won't hurt, but it won't fix the original problem, which if resolved would eliminate the need for another roller.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, adding a regulator can help a lot.

If you power the LED's on a lower voltage, but charge the cap before the regulator to a higher voltage, the regulated voltage won't change until the capacitor drops below the voltage necessary to maintain the output regulated voltage. You can accomplish very even lighting that way.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

OK, yes of course. So based on the circuit that I posted, the regulator goes after the rectifier/cap. At that point just use Johns circuit board.

Or, clean up the wheels and roller.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Tom_C said:


> ...
> 
> Added a regulator won't help, in fact IMO it will make it worse since you'll only have 5v to drain instead of whatever higher voltage you're getting from the full track power. Adding another roller won't hurt, but it won't fix the original problem, which if resolved would eliminate the need for another roller.


Not the way it's typically configured: Track power to bridge rectifier to cap to regulator to LED. 

The cap will charge up to the track's rectified AC voltage. The resulting DC V at the cap is 1.4 times the track's AC (rms) value. The regulator coverts that higher DC voltage to 5 V DC for the LED. 

For example: Say the track is at 12 V AC. The bridge will charge the cap up to ~17 V DC. The regulator takes that 17 V DC and converts it to the 5 V for the LED.

When you lose power, the cap starts to discharge: declining from 17 V DC to 16, 15, 14 ... on down to ~ 6 V DC. The regulator can continue to power the led at 5 V DC until there's insufficient voltage at the cap; ~ 6 V DC is the minimum.

There's lots of energy stored by the cap at the higher voltage. And that energy can be converted by the regulator to keep the LED lit after a power loss.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Agreed. In my mind I had the cap after the regulator.

Even better than a 5v regulator would be that LED driver/regulator I would imagine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, you could use the 5V regulator and LED's, and then just slap a big 5V supercap across it. That would decay very slowly and give you a good interval of almost steady LED intensity as it slowly discharges.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

While hes at it, I suggest he get a good oscilloscope too.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the 'scope is only useful if you actually have a real use for it and know how to use it.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

*regulated*

Regulator worked like a charm. Now i dont have to breakout my $4000 tektronix storage scope. Lol

and NO, I cant upload 8meg mp4's, only zips


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

that's a bright light


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

I used a free harbor flashlight leds. Ton of leds, only used 4, not as bright as original. May try original lights again.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

You've got a storage scope?! You go, boy!

Back in 'the day' I would borrow an HP digital scope from work... We called it Bertha. It weighed about 1000 lbs and was as big as a washing machine. I kid... a little. I think at the time they costed about 10 grand, and that isn't a joke.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> ....
> and NO, I cant upload 8meg mp4's, only zips


Well the Zipped file isn't smaller than the original. Are you saying that the forum S/W will allow you to upload the 8M zip file but not an 8M video file?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Tom_C said:


> You've got a storage scope?! You go, boy!
> 
> Back in 'the day' I would borrow an HP digital scope from work... We called it Bertha. It weighed about 1000 lbs and was as big as a washing machine. I kid... a little. I think at the time they costed about 10 grand, and that isn't a joke.


Nowadays they are a lot cheaper and easy to carry. I have a dual-channel 100mhz digital 'scope, cost less than $300.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Yeah, we've talked about this before. I'm certainly not averse to buying toys, but a) I don't currently have a permanent workbench, and b) I'm not doing any designing where I need a scope.... but don't dare me!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

ennisdavis said:


> and NO, I cant upload 8meg mp4's, only zips



makes sense ... zip are limited to 15mb, while mp4 doesn't have a written limit, so default to ANY filesize, which is 5mb


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

If you think my $4k scope was too much, look at this, one on ebay now for $3000


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When I worked in aerospace in the 1990's, we'd have loved to buy a 'scope for $4,000. The Tek 'scopes we used had an additional digit before the decimal point! The logic analyzer that I used every day cost more than $30,000. We don't know how good we have it with inexpensive test equipment that used to be out of reach for anyone except large corporations! $30,000 in 1990 is equal to $60,000 today...


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

My neighbor gave me a 4-channel Tektronix scope - nothing much better than free!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I need more neighbors like that. Gone are the days when I could afford any of the higher end Tektronix gear, I make do with lesser brands.


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## ERIE610 (Jan 19, 2015)

*TEST EQUIPMENT GALORE*

I can relate to what Tom_C is talking about when he reminiscences about the good old HP days. Being a retired Electronic Tech. I remember those old "Tek" scopes. They were indeed expensive. However there was even equipment more expensive than a "Tek" scope. Our shop Engineers brought in a HP Agilent Spectrum Analyzer that cost more than a nice house at the time. $90,000. That piece of equipment can now be bought on eBay for roughly $1000-$1500. Very good piece of equipment as I recall if calibrated correctly. 

AH THE GOOD OLD DAYS


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

a tektronix digital storage scope can be had for 200-300$ used .. probes -sometimes- included ... no recent calibration certification, but sufficient for hobby usage .. color is quite a bit more ..
a definite upgrade from the old B&K crt 'scopes , lol


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lots of test equipment was more expensive than the 'scopes. We had a ton of specialized equipment for working on air data computers and instruments. One notable unit was the giant manometer that had it's own room in the center of the production floor. It was set on a granite base that had a foundation about 15 feet into the ground, it was calibrated and traceable to NIST standards. This was the unit we calibrated all our pressure controllers for the actual design and production test of the instrumentation. I never asked how much that little jewel cost, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I bought 2 @ $6.85 each shipping and tax included from eBay. Unlike many dirt cheap meters, this one measures AC amps and capacitance up to 1,000 uf (though not so accurate for lower uf).


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Tons of good prices on multi-meters nowadays, no excuse for anyone not having that basic capability. I guess I can't kick the Fluke habit, when my Fluke 77 died after many, many years, I picked up this one.


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