# Tortoise Swtiches



## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

I have been racking my brains about getting the right amount of power to my tortoise switches. I see every where that people are talking about wall warts and what not, but I was wondering could I use my life-like transformer to power the tortoise? (see pic 1) I am just scared of burning out the tortoise switch machines as I have spent a lot of money on them. On the instruction sheet they talk about using a wal wart rated at 12v dc with 500ma. I have another wal wart made by insignia that I bought from best buy that can switch between 3v all the way to 12v dc. It says that it converts 120v ac to 3-12v dc with a 1300ma mazimum output. Can someone please advise me on what to do. I don't want to destroy anything. (see web site listed )http://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia-ac-adapter-black/5019131.p?skuId=5019131


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The key is the voltage, you don't want to go much above 12v DC (not AC). Tortoise take very little current, but its the voltage that will determine the current so you can use anything thing puts out 100 ma or more. The recommendation of a 12v 500ma wall wort is because they are very prevalent. The caution is that a wall wort may say 12v but if they are not regulated they could be significantly higher. Its nice to check them with a multimeter. I'm surprised you don't have an assortment of wall worts, they seem to multiply like rabbits!


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

so I can use either the life like transformer or insignia? With the life like I can vary the voltage out put using the dial.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

monsterram1500 said:


> I have been racking my brains about getting the right amount of power to my tortoise switches. I see every where that people are talking about wall warts and what not, but I was wondering could I use my life-like transformer to power the tortoise? (see pic 1) I am just scared of burning out the tortoise switch machines as I have spent a lot of money on them. On the instruction sheet they talk about using a wal wart rated at 12v dc with 500ma. I have another wal wart made by insignia that I bought from best buy that can switch between 3v all the way to 12v dc. It says that it converts 120v ac to 3-12v dc with a 1300ma mazimum output. Can someone please advise me on what to do. I don't want to destroy anything. (see web site listed )http://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia-ac-adapter-black/5019131.p?skuId=5019131


I've been using a very similar TYCO 8 amp power pack. Works fine, I just didnt turn the power all the way up.


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

santafealltheway said:


> I've been using a very similar TYCO 8 amp power pack. Works fine, I just didnt turn the power all the way up.


Thank you for this.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Volts Vs. amps.*



monsterram1500 said:


> so I can use either the life like transformer or insignia? With the life like I can vary the voltage out put using the dial.


 monstram1500;

As Lemonhawk said, its the volts that matter, not the amps, or in this case, miliamps. You can run your tortoise switch motors safely on any voltage up to 12 volts, without danger of burnout. However, "less is more", in a way. I would use your adjustable power pack at the lowest (voltage) setting that will reliably operate the tortoise motors. This is not for fear of burning the motors out, but to minimize the current they draw when stalled. The tortoise is what's called a "stall motor" it does not require any limit switches or fancy circuits to stop in either of its two positions. The motor just runs until the turnout points cause enough mechanical resistance to stall the motor. Unlike the motors in our locos, the stall motors are designed to handle a certain amount of electric current running through them when they are stalled. Most other motors would get hot, and yes burn out, if they were stalled and drew too much current. This can be a problem for the traction motors on full size locomotives.
A train club I belonged to used hundreds of stall motors to operate it's turnouts. At one point, they had a series of motors strip their gears because the voltage applied was high enough that the motors didn't actually stall, but kept right on pushing until something, (the gears) gave out. 
Keeping the voltage setting on your power pack as low as practical will minimize the current going through the tortoise motors. This should prevent any damage to them.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

Thank you for this. This was the answer i was looking for, most of what i saw online made me believe that the miliamps was the danger. Thank you guys for all the help. Now off to set it all up.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The guys have very concisely responded with the
info you need.

Thought I would add a little. Since the stall motor
is designed to be constantly 'on DC power you'll want
to use DPDT (no middle off) switches to control them. With the
switch in one position the polarity of the power causes
the motor to move the points. Flip the switch, the power
polarity is reversed and the motor moves the points
back to the starting point.

You'll want to observe the power supply polarity so
that your DPDT switch positions will make sense
in your panel. If you get it wrong, just flip the wires
EITHER (not both) at the stall motor OR the DPDT switch.
The Tortoise connects to the CENTER tabs on the
switches.

Don


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

Thank you for all the responses. I powered my tortoise using my life-like transformer, a multi-meter to monitor the voltage coming out of the transformer, and some jumper wires. It works. I am gonna work on how i want to run wire and leds to make everything work.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Turnout control panel*



monsterram1500 said:


> Thank you for all the responses. I powered my tortoise using my life-like transformer, a multi-meter to monitor the voltage coming out of the transformer, and some jumper wires. It works. I am gonna work on how i want to run wire and leds to make everything work.


 monsterram;

Probably the easiest way to control your turnouts, and keep track of which turnout is set which way, would be to use what DonR alluded to. A (DPDT*) toggle switch for each turnout, built into a control panel with a miniature outline of your track layout on it. The toggle switches would be mounted on the same part of the diagram where the turnout is drawn. This would correspond to the actual location of the real turnout on your railroad. As Don points out. you should connect each Tortoise motor to the center terminals of the toggle switch that represents it on the control panel. The power wires from your power pack would attach to BOTH sets of outside terminals on each,and every toggle switch. Let's say you're using red and black wires. If you look at the bottom of the toggle switch you should see six terminals arranged in two rows of three terminals per row. Like this 
- - - 
- - -
By numbering the terminals we come up with 
1_ 2_ 3_
4_ 5_ 6_

The motor's wires would be on terminals 2,& 5.
The red wire would go to terminals 3, & 4.
The black wire would go to terminals 1, & 6. 

This means the red and black wires would cross each other in an X pattern across the switch terminals. (Make sure they're insulated from each other where they cross.)
Flip the switch one way and the motor wire at 2 will be connected to a red wire. Simultaneously, the motor wire
at 5 will be connected to a black wire. This will cause the motor to run in a clockwise direction. Flip the switch the other way and the exact opposite happens. Now the motor wire at 2 will connect to a black wire, and the motor wire at 5 will connect to a red wire. This will make the motor run counter-clockwise, throwing the turnout's points the other way.
This electrical arrangement is a simple reversing switch. The direction switch inside your power pack works the same way.
You mentioned LEDs. They are not really necessary; the handle of the toggle switch will show which route the turnout is set for. If you want to use them, and get a direct feedback from the tortoise machine, you can run wires from each tortoise machine's built-in micro-switch to the LEDs. in the control panel. 
You could use a wall wart transformer that puts out 4.5-12volts DC. You will need to connect a resistor in series with the LED. This limits the current through the LED, and keeps it from burning out! A sixty eight ohm resistor works well with twelve volts. 
If the last two paragraphs sound like a foreign language to you, you might want to skip the LEDs. You would need two wires from each tortoise back to the panel and a power lead from the wall wart to the "common" terminal of every micro-switch, and the other lead from the wall wart fed back to the control panel and connected to every LED. That's a lot of wiring to accomplish very little. There is a simpler way, which Don will probably tell you about, but it simply tells you which way the toggle switch on the panel is in. That should be obvious to the eye.

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 

* DPDT stands for "Double Pole, Double Throw. This is just a technical description of the toggle switch. Useful when picking out which kind to buy, but not worth another long explanation.


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

I was thinking about building a central control panel. I marked in the picture attached. I already build the tables for the layout. My issues is that this layout will be moved in another year or 2. I am trying to build the layout so I can disconnect things easy. I do understand the idea of build the dpdt switch near the actually turnout (which I like that idea). I just want some feed back on this. Has anyone gone thru what I am going thru?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I have a central control panel, built of 1/4" lauan plywood, into which are set Tam Valley Depot bicolor turnout switches (in addition to throwing the points, the LED's change color to indicate the active track). Each of these switches is connected via an Octo III controller to a micro servo under the turnout. Works like a charm.

The only drawback to doing it this way is that if you have multiple operators, you pretty much have to have one guy run the panel. On my layout, that's the guy switching Cedar Hill yard. We're very informal: "Dad, line turnout 2-2 into the siding."

Here is what a similar panel on my son's layout looks like:









And a detail of the button and LED's:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Oh, yeah, the Tam Valley Depot stuff uses a plug in, 3 pin RC cable. When you move, write down what gets plugged in where, and just unplug it. Reconnect after the move.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

CTvalley has the right idea. But go one step
further. Put a tag on each cable companion jack so that your
log can identify it. You can get stick on number
strips at Radio Shack to do this.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DonR said:


> CTvalley has the right idea. But go one step
> further. Put a tag on each cable companion jack so that your
> log can identify it. You can get stick on number
> strips at Radio Shack to do this.
> ...


At least on my layout, each Octo III controller is marked with a Sharpie 1, 2, 3, etc. The pins to connect the cables are also labeled (on the circuit board itself). So if you label the cable coming off the turnout as 2-2, for instance, you know where to plug it back in.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

DonR said:


> The guys have very concisely responded with the
> info you need.
> 
> Thought I would add a little. Since the stall motor
> ...



...So i'm supposed to always leave it powered? I didnt knwo that.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Yep, a stall motor (Tortise, Switchmaster ..) all use a DC motor that is designed to operate with the rotor locked (stalled). They take a very small amount of current when locked, around 10 ma. As a result you can sometimes put bi-color (two lead 2 color) LED's in series with the stall motor to act as an indicator - the LED turns red or green depending upon the way the current flows to the stall motor. So while your operating its best to leave them powered since they will constantly apply pressure to keep the point against the stock rails. You can shut the power off when your done running.


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

I am gonna go with building a central panel. To be honest no one else in my family is into model railroading. So I will be the only one moving and controlling my trains till I have kids. I like the sharpie Idea and the numbering system. I will first map it all out before I start making drilling and tacking anything. Thank you guys. Yall are the best and I know I can always count on the experience here to help me.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Moveable layout*



monsterram1500 said:


> I am gonna go with building a central panel. To be honest no one else in my family is into model railroading. So I will be the only one moving and controlling my trains till I have kids. I like the sharpie Idea and the numbering system. I will first map it all out before I start making drilling and tacking anything. Thank you guys. Yall are the best and I know I can always count on the experience here to help me.


monsterram;

I strongly recommend that anyone contemplating building a layout, build it in sections. This is based on my own experience. I built my along-the-walls N-scale "bookshelf" railroad in 4'x16"x16" sections. 
Originally it was to be installed on a false wall next to a stairway in our condo's living room. (You can probably imagine how well that went over with my wife!) 
Then we moved to a different city, and acquired a house with an attached garage. Not only did having the layout sectional help with moving it; but I was able to adapt it to a completely different size, and shaped, space with minimal fuss.
Fast forward a couple decades. Now I'm partially disabled and I can't stand up very long and I stagger around a lot when I do stand since my balance is lousy. The sections can be removed, one at a time. and taken to my workbench; where I can work sitting down.

Three important points from this long story.

1) A sectional layout, with wiring passing through plugs or terminal strips, where sections meet, is easy to move. This is equally true for moving across the country, or moving across the room.

2) A sectional layout is easily adaptable. The chances are, if you move to a different house, you will not find the same size and shape space at the new home.

3) None of us can foretell our own future, but since we are all getting older, we are not likely to be able to do all the same things when we age. What is simple when you're young, can become difficult/impossible when you get old. I wish now that I had built my layout lower. When I started I was a still young and strong, tall, man. The two level railroad was built at eye level for a 6'-6" tall guy standing up with the lower level at high eye level when sitting. Even if you're still young, working under the layout is not easy, or fun. When you get older, it won't get any easier, in fact it may become near impossible. When a section goes on the workbench, I can turn it upside down. This makes wiring, and any other "under the table" jobs infinitely easier. 

So, my advice for your control panel would be to connect it with plugs or terminal strips, so that it can come off, be packed up, and moved without cutting a single wire; or having to sort through a bunch of them to reconnect it.
For the layout in general, it depends on how big your tables are. Can you lift them, carry them around corners, and up stairs without damage to the tables or, more importantly to yourself? If you answered No to any of those things, I would advise cutting them down to more manageable, smaller chunks. They would need new end boards and electrical connectors on the cut, but that's doable and may pay big dividends in the future.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

P.S. Turnouts can also be controlled from individual toggle switches, mounted to the fascia near the turnout. That way operators can walk around with their trains and control any turnouts they need to.

P.P.S. I think I've figured out your screen name. You have a Dodge Ram Monster truck right? At first I just thought it was a personal name, possibly French like Montserrat.
I guess your photo of a pick up truck with big tires should have been a clue! Dumb me! :smilie_auslachen:

Have you seen the new movie "Monster Trucks?" It's pretty funny.


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

To Traction Fan

I appreciate the words of wisdom. To be honest you sound like my dad and I mean it in a good way. I posted a picture of my layout ealier and those are the size of the tables. Two of them are 4x8 feet and the other is 3x7 feet. I am 28 going to be 29 years old. I know I'm am young, but having been a mechanic since 16 and working 2 jobs most of my life I do understand the aches and pains. 

Can I moves these tables by my self? The answer is no. I am building them so they can come apart to make moving easy. I am also trying to future proof them as much as possible. 

I will install plugs on them to make connecting and disconnecting easy. I will use terminal blocks to make wiring easy from table to table. 

Your right about the space, when I move I may not get the same space, but I will cross that bridge when the time comes. The reason for moving as most of you have done is because there is not enough room in my current place to have kids. 

You are also correct about my screen name. I use to own a lifted ram 1500, I sold it, bought a 2012 and I'm going to install a lift kit in this one. My wife and I do want to see that movie monster trucks, but will probably wait for it on dvd. 

I really do appreciate the words of wisdoms. I take them to heart. My dad always says "Your attitude is your altitude"


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

to make a control panel, get a plastic sign, cut it to the size you need. Then buy some 0.06 x 0.25 Styrene strips. Glue the strips on the plastic sign to show your track design. Spray paint the entire panel with a black or metallic black paint. Go to Michels or paint store that has paint pens (enamel or acrylic) and pick some nice bright colors to paint the styrene strips with, this way there is no masking required. Let dry, drill holes for switches and LED's.







I made 2 frames out of 1x2's and use a piano hinge between them with the plastic panel in the outer frame and inner frame fasten to the layout. Some double hung window frame locks hold them together and can then be opened and the front panel swung down to give you access to the back of the panel for wiring. 







All the wiring goes to 3 or 4 DB 8 connectors. All the toggle switches are wired identically and also go to a crimp connector to make wiring easier. The block LED's are RGB's so you can easily select any color. The push buttons toggle turnouts and their associated turnout indicators are bi-color LED's in series with the stall motors on the turnouts - controlled by the 2 DS64's.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You have a fair sized layout. Often it's more
convenient for the operator to use turnout
control panels close to the area they control.

Dividing like that makes your panel less complex.

If you plan any trackwork in the lower left
area, I would install a panel for it on the facsia.

The same for the lower right.

If you haven't already ordered the turnout motors for
your upper yard may I suggest using twin coil
turnout motors and a diode matrix control system.

It sounds complicated but is very simple and
you can get a package of diodes from Radio
shack for less than 10.00. A few dollars more
for the barrier strips you likely would need anyway.

The advantage is that when using your yard, you
need press only ONE button in the destination
track and all turnouts in the route would set for
a clear path. It eliminates the need to individually
set each turnout and the inevitable 'forgotten'
one that derails or sends your train to the
wrong track. You would not need turnout point
indicators or multiple buttons on your panel.

The turnout motors are wired as usual and
are connected to barrier strip terminals under
your panel. A simple set of diode jumpers do the
actual power routing.

If you are interested, I'll be glad to elaborate on
the hook ups.

The diode system is best for yards only.
You would use the stall motors and the switches for
them as noted in this thread for all of your non yard turnouts.

Don


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Deleted


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

DonR said:


> You have a fair sized layout. Often it's more
> convenient for the operator to use turnout
> control panels close to the area they control.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of the diode matrix, but to be honest in my upper yard I won't be doing much switching. On this layout i will have 3 trains running. Some of the track will have cars for show and I may use 3 switching tracks out of them all. This will be for right now. In the future it may change. I'm the only one running my layout. If my ladder yard was crossing more then i would use the diode matrix. I'm trying to stay away from twin coil machine, i got rid of them and went with tortoise.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

DonR said:


> ......If you haven't already ordered the turnout motors for your upper yard may I suggest using twin coil turnout motors and a diode matrix control system.
> 
> It sounds complicated but is very simple and you can get a package of diodes from Radio shack for less than 10.00. A few dollars more for the barrier strips you likely would need anyway.
> 
> ...


DonR,

I would be interested in learning more about the diode matrix control. That sounds like a great way to control yard turnouts. It sounds like the diode matrix will not work with stall motors?

I have a question about stall motors versus twin coil motors but rather than hijack monsterram1500’s post I’ll start a new thread.


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

You can use a diode matrix with stall motors. 

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/StallMatrix.html

One of the sites I pulled off google. 

This one explains what a diode matrix is

http://rail.felgall.com/dm.htm


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

monsterram1500 said:


> You can use a diode matrix with stall motors.
> 
> http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/StallMatrix.html
> 
> ...


Stall motor diode matrix. You can do it, but sheesh!

I have seen the various circuit drawings for the
twin coil diode matrix such as in this link. It would
baffle the typical modeler. Whereas, in actual
installation, you simply use diodes as jumpers from
the 'destination' push button to all turnouts in the
path connecting them on a terminal barrier strip.

Don


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

> DonR,
> 
> I would be interested in learning more about the diode matrix control. That sounds like a great way to control yard turnouts. It sounds like the diode matrix will not work with stall motors?
> 
> I have a question about stall motors versus twin coil motors but rather than hijack monsterram1500’s post I’ll start a new thread.


As monsterram's post shows you CAN do a diode
matrix with stall motors, but the complexity increases, and the
cost. I like Tortoise machines, tho I don't presently
use any. 

Also, while his link that 'explains' the diode matrix
circuits is totally correct, it is so technically intense that
it likely would make any typical modeler
shrink away in terror. Whereas, in an actual installation
it is utter simplicity.

PM me and I can elaborate the 'hot to'.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Like a dad, in a bad way?*



monsterram1500 said:


> I was thinking about building a central control panel. I marked in the picture attached. I already build the tables for the layout. My issues is that this layout will be moved in another year or 2. I am trying to build the layout so I can disconnect things easy. I do understand the idea of build the dpdt switch near the actually turnout (which I like that idea). I just want some feed back on this. Has anyone gone thru what I am going thru?


monsterram;

This may sound like nagging, but it's not intended that way. I just looked again at your layout drawing. First off, Nice Layout! Second I see some lines that I'm guessing (probably inaccurately) that these lines are joints in the tables. However you said you have two 4'x8' tables and one smaller one, which kind of shoots my "those lines must be joints" theory!
If they were, (or could become) joints then it looks like your big yard could remain largely intact, as one section. The two 4x8s look like they could become 4'x4' sections or better yet 2',x6' sections. Whether you do any of this "Crazy cutting" is your decision, of course. However, If you are going to move, and then if a major reshaping of the railroad is needed, medium long, and narrow sections will fit most rooms better than wide square slabs, because they don't take up the whole room. For now, in your current home, you probably want to keep the layout as is. The only advantage of "subdividing it would be easier transport, but that's not a big concern at your still young age.
I'm 68, DonR on this forum is in his 80s and still going strong with his model railroad. He probably thinks of me as a kid!
My own layout occupies two walls of my garage, which is attached to my wife's house. She can still park her car in the garage and there's room for his and hers workbenches, and parking for our bikes. This is because it's long and narrow. Being N-scale helps a little, but my minimum radius is 16" which isn't all that smaller than the 18" used on many HO-scale layouts.
So when you get to your bigger new home, I'm sure you will look around for a place to put the railroad. Just be sure to listen to your wife when she's planing the new nursery! 
If, by some freak chance, you two people can't agree on a location for the railroad;(We have been "discussing" expanding my railroad into the next room for 35 years. No progress on that notion yet.) Think long, narrow railroad in a room with more than one use. It worked out well for me.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Congratulations on the planed family. The kids, whenever they come, will change your life in mostly wonderful ways!
Two fantastic, grown up, daughters and one super cute grandson here! However, the very concept of "spare time" for hobbies, or anything else; may disappear for about the next 20 years of your lives! But they're worth it!:laugh:

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

Traction Fan

If I was in my forever home and had one room or basement dedicated to this hobbie, I would have done narrow long tables. Right now its in the basement of my current house. I designed it this way so that using the maximum amount of space and still leave walking room around the table to access the washing machine and the chest freezer.


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