# Revitalizing an ancient block layout



## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Theoretical question. Imagine you had a DC block layout designed literally decades ago. When folks operate this thing which is nice overall, they throw large toggle switches as the train(s) run to get it to go block to block. It's all very weird and cumbersome -- and yet I suspect they like it because it feels as if they are doing something... 

What I get is there's one overall best solution to bringing it revitalizingly forward in time -- go DCC. 

Yet unfortunately that might not be an option in this the case.

So after that one, what can one do next to make incremental improvements to a decades old design? 

Without knowing anything about this I suspect there's some way to automate the toggle switch throwing... 

But I'm not sure of it.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You don't have to automate anything. Run a main buss wired pair around the layout and and cut the wires where they come from each track block track piece and wire them to the buss.

If he used a common rail ground, you will have to add another drop wire from the unwired rail and connect to the other buss wire.

Some builders used two insulated rail joiners requiring both rails be wired to a block control switch, and some like me, eons ago used common rail ground and only had an insulted joiner on one rail.

You can't really make incremental improvements to this wiring. It's one or the other, all or nothing.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

this is the "go DCC" option ... ?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It is.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Ok it's not mine to make that call which is exactly what I favor of course -- and as I understand steadily resisted for years now. But I was thinking there was something available besides this to get away from the throwing of the toggles and other histrionics of making trains go on it ...


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

I’m not sure how this layout you are describing is wired. I had a large DC layout and didn’t have to constantly throw toggles to run on the layout. 

Passing and stub end sidings were wired in blocks so that you could park trains and kill power to those sections and run other trains on the main. 

What you are talking about sounds like you have to throw switches to get trains to move along the mains.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the description but something like that seems totally unnecessary. Or else it serves some other purpose not usually found on DC layouts.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

And from re-reading your description it sounds like the layout was built to be operated just like that, so that the toggles would have to be deliberately thrown to operate the trains. 
Ugh! But.. to each his own. So much for just sitting back, sipping on a cold one and watching trains run.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

You didn't tell us _how large_ the RR is.

Simplest way to convert the entire RR to dcc would be to *remove* the switchboard and existing wiring.

Then, set up a dcc power "bus line", with connections to each [former] block.

When you run dcc, the entire RR will be "energized" and locos will be controlled by the dcc controllers (not the formerly "sectionalized" blocks).

So long as the bus/feeders are there, it's not necessary to "connect the gaps" in the rails.

_Another way:_
Existing blocks could be "preserved" by running the power THROUGH the existing toggle switches and "out to the RR". This makes it possible to isolate sections of the RR if there's a problem somewhere.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

it's big but not giant. I don't have measurements -- I think there are 5 blocks and > 50 turnouts/switches. 

I did also kind of wonder about the preserved option above. In this fantasy scenario there's a huge switch labeled "DC/DCC" -- you know think young frankenstein stuff.

Anyway, throw it one way, and it's the good ol' DC layout of yore -- and the other way -- it's DCC. 

I suppose anything is quasi possible...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The complexity of your layout upgrade depends on
the number of trains you expect to run at one time.

If it's DC, and you expect to have more than one
train running at a time, you'll continue to need switches to determine which track is powered by which power pack.

But if you can get by with only one train you could simply
flip all of the switches to the same power pack and
away you go. To go DCC you would replace the
power pack with a DCC controller. Or you could have
a Double Pole Double Throw switch to select between
DC and DCC. Care must be taken, however, to make certain
that NO DC locos are on the track idling when it's powered by DCC. They would be damaged.

Don


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Dcc can damage dc only? Intuitively I'd think the pwm signal assuming its below the max dc voltage would do anything except cause it to surge or maybe run at some avg voltage of the signal. I've never thought to try it!


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

J.Albert1949 said:


> Simplest way to convert the entire RR to dcc would be to *remove* the switchboard and existing wiring.




Actually the *simplest* way to convert is to replace a DC cab with the DCC system and turn all the block selectors to "ON" for that cab...

Zero other changes...


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

cv_acr said:


> J.Albert1949 said:
> 
> 
> > Simplest way to convert the entire RR to dcc would be to *remove* the switchboard and existing wiring.
> ...




Normally that would be the easiest way to do it, but based on the OPs description of the layout, it may not be possible. 

He said they had to operate toggle switches to get the trains to run from block to block. That suggests some type of switch that cuts power on to one block while cutting it off to another. 
Without a wiring diagram and layout sketch we’re just guessing. I’d love to see it. It may be something we’ve never seen before.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Severn

The DCC track voltage is around 14 or so
volts modified AC. A DC motor would sense
the reversal of the polarity and try to react. 
The motor cannot actually revolve and
over heating begins, eventually damaging
the coils.

Some DC locos can be controlled by a
selector on most DCC systems but only
one at a time. They should not be
allowed to idle on the live DCC track, however.

Don


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Ok, makes sense now to me.

Well, not to get too far off track and appreciate the various inputs they've given me idea.

Now I'm wonder if with one block isolated, I could easily route the power from it into my DCC++ base and with a couple of alligator clips -- put the output onto the track. (assuming I could easily again disconnect the DC power to track) ...

For the purposes of demonstration... Anyway the short answer is I don't really have enough info about the layout right now to make that call, but perhaps this the route I'll try to take in the near term.

[it possible for me to construct a wiring diagram but to my knowledge there isn't one ready made that i can photo or copy, which means in order to get to that i'll have to get a lot more info about it ... and this may take time unfortunately]


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

*need more data*

I think we need more data.
Severn did not say if there were multiple throttles, nor how long the 5 blocks are. For example, I have more than 5 blocks on my shelf layout.

But if the layout in question has blocks a dozen feet long or more, or separate loops with crossovers, perhaps they turn a block DPDT toggle from throttle A to throttle B. And move train 1 into the next block.

Severn, is it possible to sketch the layout and blocks?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Dual cab control?*



Severn said:


> Theoretical question. Imagine you had a DC block layout designed literally decades ago. When folks operate this thing which is nice overall, they throw large toggle switches as the train(s) run to get it to go block to block. It's all very weird and cumbersome -- and yet I suspect they like it because it feels as if they are doing something...
> 
> What I get is there's one overall best solution to bringing it revitalizingly forward in time -- go DCC.
> 
> ...


Severn;

It sounds like you are describing a DC layout wired for classic "dual cab control." Does it have two DC power packs attached?
The normal setup for dual cab control was to have one power pack on each side of the main control panel, where all those toggle switches were mounted. Typically the toggle switches were set into a track diagram of the layout on that control panel. Flipping a toggle to the right connected that toggle's matching track block to the power pack on the right. Flipping that same toggle to the left connected that same block to the pack on the left. Frequently, "center off" type toggles were used. The center position was used to disconnect that toggle switch's assigned track block from both power packs. The track block would then be dead, and a train could be "parked" in that block.

People flipped toggles to obtain temporary control of blocks, not just to "feel as if they were doing something."
You're right. It is a cumbersome system, compared to DCC. However, with DC, that was the only way people could operate two, or more, trains at the same time, with each operator controlling his/her own train.

Toggles may also have been used for operating turnouts. Since most turnouts, back then, used twin-coil, momentary, switch machines. The toggles for turnouts were sometimes spring-loaded to the center-off position, and could only provide a quick shot of power to the turnout switch machine coils when an operator pushed the toggle one way, or the other, for a second.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OP wrote:
_"I did also kind of wonder about the preserved option above. In this fantasy scenario there's a huge switch labeled "DC/DCC" -- you know think young frankenstein stuff."_

It's probably best to NOT "mix" the dc and dcc on one layout.

It can be done, and I've read elsewhere about a guy who has an elaborately-designed "safety switch" to move from dcc to dc and back and prevent any possibility of mixup, but again... probably too much trouble to be worth it.

The only way I'd do this is if the layout were divided into two "sections" that were NOT connected. And even then, you could accidentally damage dc engines by mistakenly putting them onto the dcc track.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Severn, going DCC is simple ! Solder closed all the gaps in the rails which form blocks..Make sure all rails are connected/no more openings between..Run 2 wires from the DCC throttle plug-in panel where it says 'to track or such. Attach one wire to each rail via solder (and a few other ways)..You no longer need a control panel. Run your trains !! 

Some exceptions: If there are hidden polarity-reversing sections or purposely blocked already, leave them blocked. These will require either an auto-reverser such as a Hexfrog Juicer, or a DPDT toggle switch/push button to have this segregated section flip polarity to match poles of rails train is approaching the segregated section on so that train can enter it. (there is a special way the prongs on back of toggle have to be wired). Wyes, balloon tracks, and turntables require this reversal control. (Can explain later if you're going to go this way). 
Follow DCC throttle instructions on assigning each loco with its own address..(Can employ No. on side of each cab)...M


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

On a layout that seems this large from the description he's going to need more than one track drop even if he does solder all the rails together.

In the long run for reliability I would use the block drop wires to wire them to the DCC buss wire.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Not so elaborately designed.*



J.Albert1949 said:


> OP wrote:
> _"I did also kind of wonder about the preserved option above. In this fantasy scenario there's a huge switch labeled "DC/DCC" -- you know think young frankenstein stuff."_
> 
> It's probably best to NOT "mix" the dc and dcc on one layout.
> ...



J.Albert1949;

The switch to select either DC, or DCC, operation can be a simple D.P.D.T. (Double-Pole-Double-Throw) toggle switch. No "elaborate design", or great amount of trouble, is involved in wiring, or using, it.
The track is connected to the switch's two center terminals. The DC power pack's "track" output wires are connected to the left pair of switch terminals and the DCC controller's two output wires go to the right pair of toggle switch terminals. Wired this way the DC and DCC can't possibly be connected to the track at the same time. Just flip the toggle one way to connect the track to the DC power pack, or the other way to connect the track to the DCC controller.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Have you ever run a full-house loco on DCC? I think once you do you won't want to go back to DC - unless you're into the nostalgia thing. A lot of old farts, like me, are into the DC thing - which is okay, but I'd never go back. I'm a steam guy and there's just no comparison between DC and a full-house DCC steamer with sound, lights, synchronized smoke timed with the chuffs, the weight, the speed steps, the simulated braking, and all the fine details engineered into a high-end model. There's no comparison, not even close. It is expensive though.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I have dcc myself. The dc one is not my layout. I was just trying to come up with a path of least resistance for them. Looks like realistically its dcc or nothing.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Severn said:


> So after that one, what can one do next to make incremental improvements to a decades old design?
> 
> Without knowing anything about this I suspect there's some way to automate the toggle switch throwing...


typical problems w/ cab control are failing to route power from the cab to the next block and failing to set polarity correctly in reversing sections.

i think it would be helpful to indicate when the next block is is correctly routed to the proper cab. some circuitry could be added to at least indicate (e.g. panel LEDs) which cab each block is connected to. an panel LED at the boundary of each block could indicate that the two adjacent blocks are connected to the same cab, and hence it's clear for a loco to cross the boundary.

a next step could be to track the direction of the train (e.g. optical sensors) to determine whether the cab is properly selected in the next block a train is likely to enter and is "clear" to enter (e.g. panel LEDs).

turnout position could also be sensed along w/ cab selection to indicate that a train is clear to enter a block.

relays could be used to automatically connect cabs to blocks based on train direction and turnout position.

but the presence of a different loco/train in a block also need to be considered.

seems that block detection and signalling methods might form the basis for such an approach. 

obviously requires some thought, wiring and work. while doable in the past, today's tech is at least less expensive


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OP wrote:
_"The dc one is not my layout. I was just trying to come up with a path of least resistance for them. Looks like realistically its dcc or nothing."_

Getting the layout wiring changed is the easy job.

More involved and expensive -- _converting the locomotives to dcc._

First step here would be to do an inventory and "triage":
- locos that have dcc plugs that are easily converted.
- locos that might not have dcc plugs, but which can be converted without too much trouble
- locos that don't have dcc plugs and would be difficult to convert.

If there are enough of the "first category" to keep things running, get them done first. Then perhaps work on the second category, if possible.

Might just be easiest to pack up the last bunch.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Another approach*



gregc said:


> typical problems w/ cab control are failing to route power from the cab to the next block and failing to set polarity correctly in reversing sections.
> 
> i think it would be helpful to indicate when the next block is is correctly routed to the proper cab. some circuitry could be added to at least indicate (e.g. panel LEDs) which cab each block is connected to. an panel LED at the boundary of each block could indicate that the two adjacent blocks are connected to the same cab, and hence it's clear for a loco to cross the boundary.
> 
> ...




Severn;

There is another "old school" type of DC train control system that can eliminate block power toggle flipping altogether. It's called "Tower Control."
Both Cab Control, and Tower Control, go way back in model railroad history. Cab control sort of simulated a prototype engineer controlling the train from the cab of the locomotive. The same operator kept control of the train as it traveled along the mainline.

Tower control got its name from the towers that once were a feature at prototype block boundaries and junctions. An operator stationed in each tower, kept track of passing trains and made a written record, "on sheet" (O.S.) of the exact time each train passed. He also reported by telegraph, or later telephone, each trains arrival "on sheet" time back to the dispatcher. The tower operator sometimes controlled entry into his block of mainline.

The model railroad Tower Control system uses multiple DC power packs, each connected to only one block of mainline track. The control of each train is passed along from one "tower" operator to the next. Each operator controls any train in his block, no one person controls a particular train all the way around the layout.
One common application for tower control was on large club layouts. Many of these were built in a fashion that made walkaround control impractical. In some clubs, "back in the day," members popped up through hatches in their gigantic, solid table type, layout rather like like "whack-a-moles." Short of crawling under the layout, or on top of it, there was sometimes no path between hatches, hence no walkaround control was possible.
Strange as this system sounds, it does have the advantage of not needing a central control panel full of block-power-assigning toggle switches. Nor was it limited to the distant past, or never used on club layouts that were designed for walkaround control, or smaller home layouts, or one person operation. My old club's layout was, controlled this way, and so, at one time, was my own home layout.

It's a very simple system. Used DC power packs are available cheap both online, and in train stores. Our club actually had a transistor throttle for each block, fastened to the fascia at the location of the track block it controlled. All these throttles were powered by a large central power supply. Each operator walked along with his train, and eyeball checked that the block ahead was not occupied by another train, and that the speed and direction settings on the block his train was about to enter, matched those of the block his train was in now. Also cries of "Are you out of that block yet?" were common. 
At the time, the club did not have an operating block signal system. If one had been added, it could obviously indicate the presence of a train ahead, but could have also been wired to indicate the speed, and direction, settings of the next block's throttle.
I theorized that if the potentiometers of the throttle were replaced by dual-deck rotary switches, and the direction switches had an extra set of contacts (Triple-Pole-Double-Throw) a simple wheatstone bridge circuit could sense a different speed switch, or reversing switch position, compared to the previous block's switch settings.
My Idea was to use red, yellow, and green, signal indications to show track occupancy in their traditional fashion. Having an electrical speed, or direction, switch set differently would cut in a flasher circuit, so that the red, yellow, or green light on the signal would flash. 

On my own small home layout, I divided the mainline into four "blocks" or "zones", each with its own throttle. The throttles had rotary switch speed controls,. so it was easy to set each block with the same speed when a train was about to change zones.

Just another way of eliminating a lot of toggle flipping, while still using DC. The layout must already be divided into electrically insulated blocks. The track feeder wires from the center two terminals of each toggle switch would need to be removed and then attached to a throttle for that block. Depending on the layout's shape, and suitability for walkaround control, it might be advantageous to have each throttle mounted near the block it controls.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Severn;

I hear you my friend. I have a few small Bachmann early era locos (the king of Prussia, the Stevenson Rocket - that sort thing). I bought them before getting into DCC. I would love to run them on DCC with all my other locos; but they're so damn small. I don't think it's possible to convert them. At least I don't have the skills to do it, especially if I want sound, too. There are only two options that I can think of; isolate a section of my layout with a DPDT switch to pump DC into it, run a wire through all the cars it's going to pull and use the limited empty space to house the decoder and micro speaker. I'm sure I'd be pulling the hair out of my head after that one. I did see a Stevenson Rocket on Youtube once that was converted to DCC, but it was on a Japanese model that was a bit bigger. I guess it depends how deep in the weeds you want to get into it. If you're getting the layout for free, and have the space for it, it might be fun to play around with it and see how far you can get. I'm learning something new every time I log onto this site, like Tower Control. As a kid, I never got advanced enough with my American Flyer on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood to know such a thing existed. There's a lot of smart people out there.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Slightly off topic but on the part about DCC & older or smaller DC engines. 

I have several small DC engines I'd like to convert to DCC also. I've just finished converting a SD60M from Walthers. It was easy except we are talking tiny parts here. 

That was really in the end, the hard part of it.

It's helpful to have a soldering iron, thin gauge wire and maybe even a magnifying glass and some kind of "third hand" small parts holder. And some knowledge or previous experience with electronics or the desire to poke around on the web to find just enough info to get by... (see sparkfun, and adafruit tutorials for example)

My set up and knowledge in all this areas in not ideal. I'm not naturally an electronics hardware guy. I have to work at it and don't do it for a living, etc...

As for the very small DC HO engines. I've poked around on the web in the past and found videos of people retrofitting various with very small DCC engine only decoders, sometimes with an LED.

In this case though like you, i want sound and haven't done enough study of the DCC decoder market to find the appropriate sized tiny DCC + engine + sound (+ LED) decoders that might fit in this things -- or perhaps trailing in car, etc... but I think it's out there.

I cite my cell phone as evidence. I'm one of those that's smashed the screen by accident, but replaced it for "kicks" myself ... there's not much to these things in terms of parts.

But the speaker -- its a tiny box of a thing with no connecting wires and little "nibs" that pressure fit onto leads coming from the PCB. and it's loud. Ok not that loud but small and loud enough perhaps.

So I mean the parts are there somewhere if you can dig at it and find them i think even for the smallest of engines these days just about (and of course $$$)...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the $1,000 HO locomotive could be replete with features if it were built like a cell phone in quantities of 100,000 and up.  

When you look at the innards of even an older cellphone, it's positively amazing that you can even fabricate something that small. For instance, the smallest SMT resistor is the 0201 package which measures a tiny 0.6mm x 0.30mm. I once made the mistake of specifying that package for a project. When I went to build the prototype by hand, I lost half a dozen of the resistors before I finally got one on the board! The fact that the phone makers use 100's of those densely packed gives you an idea of how difficult it is to engineer something like that.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I agree and the microscopic LEDs are very cool too. One knock on effect may be that hobbyists like me are having a harder and harder time finding the larger parts now.... to be fair my needs are pretty minimal but that's my fear. in fact i have another grip --drifting further off topic issue -- there is no place within 100 miles of me that I can tell that I can be LEDs -- not counting the ones that go in fixtures -- or any other components. Thus to get 1 teeny tiny LED I'm forced to mail order it... Ugh!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Amazon & All Electronics.com*



Severn said:


> I agree and the microscopic LEDs are very cool too. One knock on effect may be that hobbyists like me are having a harder and harder time finding the larger parts now.... to be fair my needs are pretty minimal but that's my fear. in fact i have another grip --drifting further off topic issue -- there is no place within 100 miles of me that I can tell that I can be LEDs -- not counting the ones that go in fixtures -- or any other components. Thus to get 1 teeny tiny LED I'm forced to mail order it... Ugh!


Severn;

You can order Any size/type of LED, tiny speakers called "Piezo Elements", and other electronic components from www.allelectronics.com I just received some micro-mini phone plugs I ordered there, that I couldn't find anywhere else. Once they were commonly available at Radio Shack & surplus electronics stores. Not anymore! Your fear is not without justification. The age of electronic tinkering with components is gradually dying out. One reason is the "large scale integration" design of things like cell phones. They're not designed to be fixable. These days, you don't fix a broken piece of electronics, you replace it with a new device.
Another reason is the mindset of most millennials. They just don't fix, or build, stuff. A recent survey showed that most millennials don't even own such basic tools as a single screwdriver, or hammer!
Having spent a lifetime fixing things for a living, and at home, I find this deeply disturbing.  What's going to happen when a whole generation of Americans* don't have a clue about fixing, or making, anything? Perhaps you-tube will save them? 

You might also try ww.amazon.com and search for LEDs. 

*Note: Even the verb "to fix" is of American origin. We invented the concept. Now we just buy another whatzit from China hwell:

good luck;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## paxton1958 (Feb 23, 2010)

I left all of the wiring as it was and put the toggles all to one side and wired the DCC into that side. Had to add a couple of track feeder where power was low. Layout is 10' by 24' with 12 blocks. If any problems can use the toggles to isolate track.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*"If you think HO is tough."*



Cab1 said:


> Severn;
> 
> I hear you my friend. I have a few small Bachmann early era locos (the king of Prussia, the Stevenson Rocket - that sort thing). I bought them before getting into DCC. I would love to run them on DCC with all my other locos; but they're so damn small. I don't think it's possible to convert them. At least I don't have the skills to do it, especially if I want sound, too. There are only two options that I can think of; isolate a section of my layout with a DPDT switch to pump DC into it, run a wire through all the cars it's going to pull and use the limited empty space to house the decoder and micro speaker. I'm sure I'd be pulling the hair out of my head after that one. I did see a Stevenson Rocket on Youtube once that was converted to DCC, but it was on a Japanese model that was a bit bigger. I guess it depends how deep in the weeds you want to get into it. If you're getting the layout for free, and have the space for it, it might be fun to play around with it and see how far you can get. I'm learning something new every time I log onto this site, like Tower Control. As a kid, I never got advanced enough with my American Flyer on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood to know such a thing existed. There's a lot of smart people out there.


Cab 1;

As a long time N-scaler, I understand your dilemma regarding fitting things into small equipment. The decoder in a trailing car will work, though you will need to run four tiny wires between the loco and car. Two from the locomotive's track pickups, back to the input of the DCC decoder, and two more from the decoder's motor output back up to the motor in the loco. If you want a working headlight, that's two more wires.

As for sound, the sound decoder, and speaker(s) don't necessarily need to be onboard the train at all. you can use a sound decoder and one/several of those amplified speakers once common as a computer accessory, to have sound come from the layout, rather than the train. There are also commercial sound systems like this available. 

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Severn;

The smallest HO loco I ever converted to DCC was a Bachmann 4-4-0 Jupiter. Yes, I know, Bachmann retooled and came out with the 4-4-0 American with DCC and “Value added” sound a year or so ago, but mine is the old DC one. They came in two flavors. I have both; one with the “stove pipe” exhaust stack, the other with the “funnel” exhaust with spark cage on top – which is the one I converted. The Jupiter is a very small loco. It has a driveshaft coming out of the back head into the tender, where the motor lives, with a God-awful piece of plastic covering it that is supposed to be a wood pile. There’s not much room to work with, but I found a small space behind the brake wheel to install a Digitrax #DZ146 1 Amp Z / N / HO scale decoder. It’s about the size of your index fingernail and three times as thick. I wanted to use a full-function decoder with sound and put it in the boiler, but I couldn’t figure out how to take it apart without breaking it. Isolating everything was a real pain. I managed to get power to all the wheels front to back and even got DCC control of the headlight. It originally got power from the bogie up front. All I had to do was cut the wire, run it to the decoder, and then wire the bogie as an extra pickup point for power. I tested it on a section of track. It’s no stump puller, but it looks and runs great. With all the wheels picking up power it should have no trouble going through a turnout. No sound though. I could put a sound only decoder in a Combine car behind the tender and run power wires to it underneath. 

I wish I could convert my Stevenson Rocket to DCC. It’s been done before. I saw one running on Youtube a few years back. I think it was a Japanese version. It looked a little bigger than mine. The only way I can see to do it would be to cut open the barrel on the back and stuff a decoder in it. Maybe even one with sound. It wouldn’t be easy. The smallest HO locomotive I’ve seen with DCC and Sound was the “Glaskasten” or glass box, a steamer passenger train set made by Roco of Royal Bavarian Railroad. It is tiny. Don’t ask me how they did it. I have one. They cost around $500. I don’t want to offend anybody, but the Germans have never been bashful when asking for money. It seems like anything they sell that’s made in Germany automatically has a premium slapped on it.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the decoder actually goes under the barrel, at least it does in the one i have ... the floor is lifted slightly, and the speaker goes into the barrel .. i added a figure to simulate the engineer


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Cab1 said:


> I don’t want to offend anybody, but the Germans have never been bashful when asking for money. It seems like anything they sell that’s made in Germany automatically has a premium slapped on it.


I owned a German car, the Audi, so that statement simply smacks of the truth, not offensive at all. When the sucker ran out of warranty, the repair bills all seemed to have four significant digits!


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

traction fan;

That's another way to do it. I've heard some of those sound systems are so sophisticated they can even simulate the Doppler effect as the train goes by. Somehow, I like it better with sound coming from the loco.


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

wvgca;

There you go. I knew someone would come up with the answer. That's great. Did you do the conversion? How did you isolate the motor? You know what comes next, right? A smoke generator in the smokestack. Most manufactures won't put smoke generator in a steamer unless the to scale size of the boiler is big enough to dissipate the heat. They're afraid a smoke generator will melt the smoke box. The rocket has a long smokestack made of metal. I'm thinking maybe a small N scale smoke generator up high in the smokestack might work. Is there such a thing as a small N scale smoke generator? The wheels are turning. Like I said, lots of brain power on this site.


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn;

I hear ya. It's the same with the HK battle rifle. They go over board with ergonomics by putting the bolt on the left side to make left handed shooters happy, but end up making everybody unhappy. If you shoot left handed the empty cases spit out to the side or over your lift shoulder. If your a right handed shooting a rifle with a right handed bolt it's the opposite. But if you're right handed shooting a rifle with a left hand bolt, especially if you are a big guy, where does the arc of trajectory for the empty cases go? Right in your face.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Cab1 said:


> wvgca;
> 
> Did you do the conversion? How did you isolate the motor?





nope, came that way already ...


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

traction fan said:


> J.Albert1949;
> 
> The switch to select either DC, or DCC, operation can be a simple D.P.D.T. (Double-Pole-Double-Throw) toggle switch. No "elaborate design", or great amount of trouble, is involved in wiring, or using, it.
> The track is connected to the switch's two center terminals. The DC power pack's "track" output wires are connected to the left pair of switch terminals and the DCC controller's two output wires go to the right pair of toggle switch terminals. Wired this way the DC and DCC can't possibly be connected to the track at the same time. Just flip the toggle one way to connect the track to the DC power pack, or the other way to connect the track to the DCC controller.
> ...


That's exactly how I have the test track in the workshop set up.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Cab1 said:


> gunrunnerjohn;
> 
> I hear ya. It's the same with the HK battle rifle. They go over board with ergonomics by putting the bolt on the left side to make left handed shooters happy, but end up making everybody unhappy. If you shoot left handed the empty cases spit out to the side or over your lift shoulder. If your a right handed shooting a rifle with a right handed bolt it's the opposite. But if you're right handed shooting a rifle with a left hand bolt, especially if you are a big guy, where does the arc of trajectory for the empty cases go? Right in your face.


Please clarify what you are talking about because I have no idea after owning HK rifles and PTR rifles for more than 30 years.

They all eject to the right, and the operating handle/knob has always been on the left for the HK91/93, and MP5 series.

I shoot rifle left handed due to being left-eye dominant. I've never had a problem with brass ejecting from these rifles.


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## holava (Aug 8, 2015)

MichaelE said:


> Please clarify what you are talking about because I have no idea after owning HK rifles and PTR rifles for more than 30 years.
> 
> They all eject to the right, and the operating handle/knob has always been on the left for the HK91/93, and MP5 series.
> 
> I shoot rifle left handed due to being left-eye dominant. I've never had a problem with brass ejecting from these rifles.


Wow, that's a nice smoothly rolling train.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

The not that tiny but small economi pnp pc has several 12v pins which might power a vape motor.. Or so I was imagining one day. There's also a 1.5v pin. Because the the others are for lights the are higher voltage ... Maybe it would run another small motor.


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Damn, you're right. I have an HK-93 that's been sitting in the back of a locker along with a bunch of other stuff for like 15 years. I saw the bolt on the left and didn't even bother pulling it out of all the junk because I though the ejector was on the left too. My bad. I'm gonna have to pull that sucker out. Anyway, I've heard HK isn't supporting the platform anymore. I think they're going to an AR variant, leaning toward 6mm. Nice rifle. Is that the 308? 

By the way it does happen:

One problem with a lefty shooting a right-hand AR is that the hot brass hits the shooter’s neck and can go down his or her collar. This Rock River AR (r.), one of the few dedicated left-hand ARs, is a joy for a lefty to shoot—as are the guns from Stag Arms.

americanrifleman.org

Okay, enough of that. Back to trains.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

This came up on another forum -- i have no direct or indirect relation to it. But it meets my vague-ish idea about the whole thing.

http://rpc-electronics.com/dcdccswitch.php


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Its a toggle switch*



Severn said:


> This came up on another forum -- i have no direct or indirect relation to it. But it meets my vague-ish idea about the whole thing.
> 
> http://rpc-electronics.com/dcdccswitch.php


Severn;

This is a workable gadget and it will do the job. It's just a DPDT toggle switch mounted on a plate with a couple of LEDs to show the operator which way he just threw the toggle switch. That should be obvious from the switch's handle position, but the LEDs won't hurt anything.
The screw terminals on the back, the labeling, and whatever directions come with it, might make it easier to connect for those not familiar with basic electrical wiring. One could certainly build their own from components, and it might be a tiny bit cheaper, but this assembled version would be less work. All in all, not a bad idea or device.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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