# What's your thought on the quality of products offered today??



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I don't buy many items new I just read all the threads and boy some do get ugly! I remember years ago there was an insert with every loco with all the locations of all the Service Stations. Obviously there were issues before as well.

Has quality really dropped of that much or are we just more aware of it through outlets like MTF that we never had before the internet.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

Quality of product! Good question. One reason I won't be purchasing any Lionel product. 
Just like baseball, 3 strikes and your out. (actually 5 strikes, considered some as foul balls, like the connection inside my Vision BB which was not connected properly or not at all at the factory).


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Well, this year hasn't been the best!

2 DOA BTO items & one not as described in the catalog. O/3 on new stuff.

I'm mostly in 2R now, so those items will be my last 3R new purchases.

Even if I wasn't, there would be no credit card steam for future purchases.


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Interesting question. I've been reading the same, from the cheapest products to the most expensive.

I rarely purchase new items from the major importers/manufacturers, so I'm strictly a bystander. I get the sense that a few of them are trying to get whatever they can from a depleting market. That's obviously my opinion, though.

I wonder how many Lionel 2343's were returned due to failure in 1952? They were "state of the art" at the time, but most Americans had more mechanical ability at the time. Seems to me that if an X-box can be produced without any problems, or very few, the same could be said about an O-scale locomotive, unless the locomotive importer is cutting costs at every corner and using cheaper manufacturer's.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

c.midland said:


> .....Seems to me that if an X-box can be produced without any problems, or very few, the same could be said about an O-scale locomotive....


I agree-the idea they're delicate toys has never settled with me because millions of lap tops are delivered each year with very few DOA. Never heard of an x box DOA on arrival. In the big picture, they're millions of iPhones, home electronics, & other products compared to electric trains-which adds to the frustration. 

It does sound as if Lionel has addressed some of the packaging issues with the arrival of the new Allegheny.

All of the manufacturers have had their share of quality issues. Scott Mann's posts about China's business challenges always leaves me wondering how he continues to make models for us.

One of the best parts of THIS forum is being able to have adult discussion about subjects like this.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I was going to ask a second question. I think we will all admit this market is definitely shrinking. Lionel appears to be hedging their bets by some of the spikes we've seen in pricing.

I wonder what % of product is bought by the "online" community versus John Q Public. We at least have somewhere to go and commiserate over some of the recent product failures and are aware of what might happen. What about JQP who made a purchase and gets a DOA. He gave it a shot and it failed, he won't be back...


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

My 2 cents worth. Since command control came out quite a few years ago I have purchased around 100 TMCC, PS-2, PS-3 and Legacy locomotives. Every locomotive has worked as stated out of the box and has worked as expected over the years. There has been around 5 locos that the speakers have called it quits and need to be replaced. I run my electric trains almost daily so they all accumulate a lot of hours of operation, I rotate most of the locomotives monthly so some will sit a year or more before they are put on the rails.

Bill


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2016)

Since getting back into O gauge 2 years ago I've bought a Lionel starter set with a conventional 0-8-0, 3 LionChief Plus steam engines, 1 Railking steamer and 1 diesel, and the Railking Aerotrain and all have been perfect. I have 3 transformers, a CW-80 that came with the set, a GW-180 and an accessory transformer and all are fine. Freight and passenger cars and buildings all have been flawless.

I really like modern trains with electronics like sounds and wireless and speed control. I loved my trains from the 1950s but I much prefer those made today.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

seayakbill said:


> My 2 cents worth. Since command control came out quite a few years ago I have purchased around 100 TMCC, PS-2, PS-3 and Legacy locomotives. Every locomotive has worked as stated out of the box and has worked as expected over the years. There has been around 5 locos that the speakers have called it quits and need to be replaced. I run my electric trains almost daily so they all accumulate a lot of hours of operation, I rotate most of the locomotives monthly so some will sit a year or more before they are put on the rails.
> 
> Bill


Good Post Bill, we always read/hear about the complaints, me included, but the positives get drowned out!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I think it's pretty good, if you're willing to spend reasonable amounts. 
But there is no company I won't buy from, and no company that I won't stop and think: is this one of their poor products? 

The only model train products I avoid due to poor quality are the RTR sets and "price-leader" locos made by both MTH and Lionel. I learned the hard way these are prone to problems and not durable. 

I have had a few problems with MTH, Lionel, 3rd Rail, and WBB locos - about the same small amount regardless of company. 3rd Rail has been the most responsive, but then given the cost that's not too unexpected.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm a bad guy to ask as I don't really get upset when I see some electronic issue, I get upset when something cosmetic or mechanical arrives broken. 

I think the biggest issue is that today's models are far more complex than the pre-war and PW stuff that they're being compared to, so it's really not a fair comparison.

I'm with Lee on the companies, all of them will have good days and bad days, good products and bad products.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I like them all as well, but had some issues here and there. Nothing major. I've never run into issues getting things fixed if there was something wrong.

My experience with the RTR sets have been different from Lee. They all have worked just fine for me.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I was thinking what John said about the complexity of modern engines verses that of older stuff. The prewar/conventional engines were bullet proof because they were simple and rugged. They had to be to stand up to young hands. Modern engines with electronics and added details are much easier to break. If you are not careful picking up a modern engine, you will probably break a handrail or other detail. If you screw up and cause a short, you may fry the electronics. I can only speak to MTH as far as modern locomotives and I have had relatively few issues. Two out of several diesels had a loose motor to truck mounting screw that caused a staccato gear noise…easily fixed after GRJ clued me in on the cause.

The one quality issue I can’t fathom is why MTH has not yet fixed their terrible wireless drawbar design. That is keeping me and I’m sure many others from buying MTH PS3 steamers.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

I think the manufacturers' retail prices are high for the quality of the products produced. More detailed? Yes, but overall operation is equally important. Overseas manufacturing has drawbacks for the consumer and China-made quality control today seems very lacking. 

Of the 3 Lionel locomotives I've purchased over the past 5 years, 2 have had major problems requiring repairs from Lionel servicing twice each. Both were due to inferior parts (motors and boards) made in China. 

But again, 3-rail O scale is dying anyway, and I have all of the locomotives and rolling stock I need. So, the quality of products offered today is not an issue for me anymore.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Lehigh74 said:


> The one quality issue I can’t fathom is why MTH has not yet fixed their terrible wireless drawbar design. That is keeping me and I’m sure many others from buying MTH PS3 steamers.


I wonder the same things. It's just a really BAD design.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

I feel this is a tough comparison. Today's model are more complex and more to go wrong. I'm sure back in the day even Lionel marx and American flyer had their flukes


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Just fixed a couple more PS/3 steamers that came in. The fix? Plug in the connection to the wireless drawbar that regularly comes out during operation.


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## Agent027 (Sep 7, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> The only model train products I avoid due to poor quality are the RTR sets and "price-leader" locos made by both MTH and Lionel. I learned the hard way these are prone to problems and not durable.


This I don't understand. The Lionel set I re-entered the hobby with some 28 years ago, is still running: The only repair being replacing the smoke unit after 17 years.

Granted, the conventionally operated starter sorts of products have much less to go wrong with them. But as far as durability (and longevity) goes, everything I have ever bought is still operational today. This includes a wide variety of postwar Lionel, MARX, Lionel LTI/MPC, K-Line, Williams and RMT... bought brand new and used. And much of this, obviously made in China.

The only Lionel starter locos I cannot speak for (before LionChief) is the Dockside and the 0-8-0. I have heard about some issues with these: The smaller motor size and the smoke mechanism jamming on the 0-8-0.

There's the old saying "You get what you pay for." But given all the threads Jeff originally referenced, this might not be true. I have also seen these numerous threads. I run trains for FUN, not frustration.

The "low end" starter types of products obviously are not as accurately detailed and don't have the bonus digital operational features. But NEVER once have I had a DOA or a product with such major quality defects out of the box, that it needed to be returned or repaired. And with years of operating, everything still runs today. So in that sense of the old saying, I HAVE gotten what I paid for. 

At the time when I was a kid, we played with simple toys and used our imaginations. I guess that "skill" has never left me. While the trains I like don't have the advanced features, in my mind they do... I see the bell ringing and the engineer waving and the smoke coming out of the valves... all in my imagination.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Agent027 said:


> This I don't understand. The Lionel set I re-entered the hobby with some 28 years ago, is still running: The only repair being replacing the smoke unit after 17 years.


Actually that is my experience, too. BUT . . . the quality issue I have with modern stuff is out-of-the-box reliability - infant mortality. 

For example, of three MTH RTR starter sets I bought three years at, at a local hobby store where my grandkids live, in order to build a layout for them, all three had some problem within one hour of start up. By mixing and matching pcontrllers and such from different sets, and one repair, I got two complete sets running, and of course I had the track from all three, etc., so I built the layout, but was short one loco and one controller and one rolling stock. We got by . . . My oldest son then got who Lionel entry level train sets to add to the trains the grandkids had at Christmas. One loco and one caboose were basically bad out of the two sets. I managed to fix the bad loco. 

Every one of these locos that did eventually run proved very _durable_: given that it worked several hours after being taken out of the box, in continued to work years later. All of them still operate tine as of this past weekend, when I got a train report from eager little voices.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

My comment is: What do you mean the postwar stuff was rugged and durable? If I remember from my early years, the engines ran too fast and derailed on the switches and smoked when they wanted to and the drivers needed tightening and the couplers came undone and the cattle loader never worked perfectly and the rotating beacon never turned!!! 

I have found the current equipment to be exceptional. The engines track beautifully, the smoke fills the room and the sounds are dynamic. If something does have a problem I have found Lionel's service department to be exceptional. Send it out and get it back in 10 days or less. Most of the time they will walk you through a problem over the phone.

We have talked about price before and I am satisfied with the comparative cost of equipment today. My father could barely afford the cost of Lionel products in 1950 and I feel the same way today, but just like my Dad, I keep buying...


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Wood brings up a valid point. Perhaps O-gauge trains have always been somewhat expensive-cheaply built items. Nostalgia may have skewed us, along with the modern features of sound and command control.

I wonder how many folks on Christmas morning were disappointed with their brand new operating cattle car, rotary beacon that wouldn't rotate, or Marx loco. that wouldn't go through a Lionel O-27 switch. The list could go on...

In hindsight, maybe we should really be conditioned to a little disappointment in the hobby. Just something to think about.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> I wonder the same things. It's just a really BAD design.


I would agree with this. The MTH wireless drawbar can be problematic. The Lionel Lionchief RTR Engine drawbar appears to be superior and holds together quite nicely.

There are some work around solutions to the MTH wireless drawbar.

The RTR sets from whatever manufacturer should be fairly bullet for the consumer, imo. Lionel is certainly leveraging the Lioncheif technology recently with a wide variety (two recent catalogs) of offerings.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

MTH produces better products than Lionel still...
My new Lionmaster Class A arrives and the headlight dies with the smoking whistle...


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## briangcc (Oct 11, 2012)

Depends on what you are comparing it to...

I think the quality is there based on the Weaver/Williams/MTH trains I own. All run smoothly, offer sound that wasn't available back in the 70's, and generally look better. Lionel in the 70's was prone to casting a boxcar/tankcar/etc in colored plastic which may or may not be accurate for the roadname. Compare that to the current offerings from MTH where the shells are painted and the lettering crystal clear.

And I have 1970's steam engines that gave up the ghost last Christmas whereas my Williams Berkshire is still going strong...and that's after a couple drops to a carpeted floor by my boys - 4 and 2 yrs old respectively.

Now on the flip side I do believe the power supplies have suffered a bit as I have had to replace the cooling fan in my CW-80. When I did it the plastic inside the case seemed to be failing as I had to glue/reinforce the attachment points for the electronics. My 1970's metal power supply stayed together, although it gave up the ghost recently...

But in the same vein, the price has skyrocketed on new items. Don't get me wrong as the locos coming out are stunning but I'm not sure all that many of us can drop what essentially equates to a down payment on a car on a single Lionel locomotive. I know I can come up with a number of uses for $2k that doesn't involve a single locomotive purchase. $100+ for a single piece of rolling stock? If you ask me, that is what's shrinking this market/killing the hobby - cost involved. 

**Not just O scale as HO has gone nuts since the demise of the blue box Athearn offerings. Just 10 years ago you used to be able to get an Athearn locomotive for $20-40 powered. Superdetail & paint yourself and add $40 to the cost of the project. These days kids unbox Athearn, superdetailed, with sound and lighting for $200. No modeling involved and no satisfaction that you have a model truly unique. And what kid can drop $200 on a loco? 

Most of my purchases are through Evilbay or local train shows to help stretch my $$.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Case in point: I have accumulated 7 of the Lionel Vision Line models, which in order of manufacture are the ATSF 3000 steamer, GE Evo (Demonstrator and CP versions), UP Genset, UP Challenger, Baldwin Centipede and Big Boy. Only one (the Evo Demonstrator) has been completely trouble-free; three have had major sound issues, the Big Boy has the blowdown smoke malaise and the other two have different smoke issues, which mean that they don't perform as well as advertised. I have an equal number of Legacy or MTH PS2/3 engines that are less fully featured and only one of those has had to have professional servicing.

Frankly my strong impression is that Lionel's QC at the factory, which includes testing production samples (as I assume they do), is not what it's been represented to be. Combined with increased pricing (and limited space either to run or display more trains) this has made me very selective about buying any more. Obviously with added features and the electronics to operate them there's more complexity and more that can go wrong but it's no fun when you find that there's a basic issue straight out of the box. It's the unpredictability about how a new model is going to run that is a real enthusiasm killer. 

All that said, the last addition to my little roster (recent Legacy FEF3) has worked without any hitch. Unfortunately I see that other recent engines are arriving with broken parts or non-functioning features.


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## Waddy (Dec 18, 2014)

Actually, I think quality is pretty good considering how complicated it's all become. Back in the good old days of my childhood toy trains were very basic, not all that reliable, and fairly pricey. So I'm not complaining about quality. I did have an MTH steamer delivered new that was DOA, but MTH put a new 3.0 board in it and it's run fine since.

Waddy


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

I find one thing VERY irritating about Chinese made products. In my experience, for some unknown reason, they have a problem with getting screws and nuts tight.
Dan


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Well Panther seeing as most stuff now comes from China its something we may have to get used to. Its the quality control of the US/European companies commissioning the work that sorts the good from the bad.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I read a thread on another forum also dealing with quality issues that a poster had sent 30 items back to Lionel for repairs this year. That would be hard for me to deal with, certainly would end my purchases of Lionel product. UPS must love the electric train importers.

Bill


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

trust me you don't want me to elaborate on lionel 

sounds are good 
detailing for a non rivet counter is good for me!

electronics or tech repair ??????????


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The mojority of my stuff is pre owned. I have bought about 10 new engines each from MTH and Lionel and 3-4 new from 3rd Rail. Only one Lionel Legacy GP7 had an issue with its lights out of the box and was able to fix that. 
I am more disappointed with the quality going down while the price goes up. Case in point the Lionel 21" cars vs the previous 18" Aluminum cars. Also the scaling back in features of the new engines like Legacy Lite Railsounds (how many are aware of this?) and using legacy motor drivers that don't match the speed curves of the majority of Legacy engines. There are more examples but I have stopped considering Lionel for the time being. MTH has gotten nearly as pricey but I think they have maintained their quality and still improve the detail with every release as has 3rd Rail.

Pete


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Norton said:


> I am more disappointed with the quality going down while the price goes up. Case in point the Lionel 21" cars vs the previous 18" Aluminum cars. Also the scaling back in features of the new engines like Legacy Lite Railsounds (how many are aware of this?)
> 
> Pete


OK, I'm not afraid to confess ignorance and be educated as I'd really like to know; what's the deal with Legacy "Lite" Railsounds? I first noticed that name when I had to look up a part recently and I've just noticed that it's what my new FEF-3 has. What difference does it make? (Having looked at only one of these boards they sure are smaller than any old TMCC models I have seen and even the more recent ERR offerings.)

Insofar as I know anything I agree your comment about the plastic 21" cars and the more general point about certain features being eliminated while prices are on the rise. It's a cause for concern that quality seems to be compromised while the margin it looks like Lionel is trying to extract from their higher end locomotives gets bigger. :smilie_daumenneg:

However, I'll add this for what I hope is a little balance: I've tracked Lionel passenger set prices for years and allowing for inflation and dealer discounts, present prices are no higher than they were about a decade ago. Of course you don't get yesterday's detail and so far the new cars are all "generic" with non-prototypical external and internal features. But realistically that seems to matter less to many people than it does to me. :dunno: There's always 3rd Rail . . .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I am not sure where the term Legacy "Lite" Railsounds came from. Pretty much all the Legacy locomotives have the same "Lite" board. Here's a picture of the Vision Line Big Boy sound board (on the left), it's the same one that's in most other Legacy steamers. If they didn't use their "premium" sound board in the most expensive locomotive produced to date, exactly where does the "non-Lite" board get used? BTW, this is the same board that ERR sells as the RailSounds Commander. They use the identical hardware in the locomotive for the VL-BB for the second sound channel.


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

I am very upset with the quality of Lionel switches mainly the 6-23010 & 6-23011, they kept acting up on me in different ways each week after 6 months of owning them. 
So I went to Gargraves track and switches about 7 years ago or more and within the last year have bought 4 Ross Custom switches to solve my problems. 

I have had much better success with MTH, RMT or Williams engines then with Lionel in the past 12 years. Plus Lionel wants to charge a fortune for their products.

I just want to give my two cents on the way I see things in the hobby, not trying to offend anybody.

Lee Fritz


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The 3010 and 3011 switches didn't enjoy a good reputation. I have a bunch of them, they work OK once you spend some time tweaking them.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I am not sure where the term Legacy "Lite" Railsounds came from. Pretty much all the Legacy locomotives have the same "Lite" board. Here's a picture of the Vision Line Big Boy sound board (on the left), it's the same one that's in most other Legacy steamers. If they didn't use their "premium" sound board in the most expensive locomotive produced to date, exactly where does the "non-Lite" board get used? BTW, this is the same board that ERR sells as the RailSounds Commander.]


Yes, it seems to me that this doesn't necessarily represent a downgrade in sound offerings from Lionel. When I first became aware of the "Lite" Railsounds name, I thought it related to the dimensions of the board and was probably coined by Mike Reagan as it sounds like what he'd say as a kind of joke. I don't think that there is a "premium" Legacy sound board. Should have noticed that this was really the same hardware as the ERR boards although presumably those don't come loaded with Legacy sound files.

I also just came across "The Un-Official RCMC and RailSounds Lite Guide" over on the other forum, including this diagram of the Lite board that is way clearer than the ones on Lionel's parts site:









Kudos to those who helped create the Guide. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's the whole guide, very useful for newer Legacy locomotives!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I have been away and just saw this. As noted Legacy Lite is what its called in the repair parts section. The Legacy Lite locos that I have including the Heavy Mikado have notably lower volume for one thing. I don't play with crew talk much so don't kmow if there a fewer phrases or not compared with full blown Legacy Railsounds. Its the lack of of volume that is most evident to me.
My K-Line RS4 engines with their flat 25 cent speaker are significantly louder than Legacy Lite.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have had no issues with volume on most of my stuff. When I see volume issues, it's more the speaker installation than the board. That RailSounds board is capable of plenty of volume with a proper speaker installation.

I do have to say that MTH impressed me with the sound from the 44-Ton locomotive, for a tiny speaker and board, it has "big" sound.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> I am very upset with the quality of Lionel switches mainly the 6-23010 & 6-23011, they kept acting up on me in different ways each week after 6 months of owning them.
> So I went to Gargraves track and switches about 7 years ago or more and within the last year have bought 4 Ross Custom switches to solve my problems.
> 
> I have had much better success with MTH, RMT or Williams engines then with Lionel in the past 12 years. Plus Lionel wants to charge a fortune for their products.
> ...


Sounds like Lee has been having the same problem with Lionel switches that I've been having with Lionel engines.

But yes Lee heaven forbid, we certainly wouldn't want to offend anybody.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I think I have 21 locos. 3 with TMCC. 2 used PW Lionel. All others bought new since
2002. 1 beep. 7 Williams before Bachmann. 2 K-Line. 6 Lionel.
It is very odd that all have worked the first time I put them on the track.
All are conventional except the 3 TMCC. I had an Atlas loco but sold it.
I have no, 0, MTH locos. I don't think I have even seen an MTH loco except at York
in 2010. The dealealers at our local train show don't bring MTH.
Repeat. I have not had any problems with my locos.


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Yellowstone Special said:


> Sounds like Lee has been having the same problem with Lionel switches that I've been having with Lionel engines.
> 
> But yes Lee heaven forbid, we certainly wouldn't want to offend anybody.


The Lionel switches # 6-23010 & 23011 were rather nice in that they had a small connector piece of track that could be used with them or not and put together for a closer fit. But I can cut down a Gargraves 042 switch and make it fit almost as close as the Lionel 23010 series back to back.

Lee Fritz


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

rogruth said:


> I think I have 21 locos. 3 with TMCC. 2 used PW Lionel. All others bought new since
> 2002. 1 beep. 7 Williams before Bachmann. 2 K-Line. 6 Lionel.
> It is very odd that all have worked the first time I put them on the track.
> All are conventional except the 3 TMCC. I had an Atlas loco but sold it.
> ...


It's a bit different here is southeast Florida with train shows. Most people bring MTH items to sell, a few bring Lionel, and some bring Williams.

I know that Williams engines are good in quality but some people just getting into the hobby or who are "Lionel loyal" will walk away from an item once they see the Williams name.

Lee Fritz


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> It's a bit different here is southeast Florida with train shows. Most people bring MTH items to sell, a few bring Lionel, and some bring Williams.
> 
> I know that Williams engines are good in quality but some people just getting into the hobby or who are "Lionel loyal" will walk away from an item once they see the Williams name.
> 
> Lee Fritz


Then that is their blunder and unfortunate for them. I used to be "Lionel loyal" until I purchased my first Williams locomotive almost 3 years ago. It's a Santa Fe FA-1 with A & B dummies and makes a nice looking set pulling my 5 Williams Santa Fe aluminum passenger cars.

I've posted photos before, but this Williams FA-1 is my favorite locomotive. As a conventional operator, it's my perfect engine. The detailing and graphics on the shell is excellent. It has adjusted wiring and crawls at slow speeds, has the True Blast II sound board with diesel revving, horn & bell, and is very easy to maintain. If necessary I can fix it myself with readily available parts from Williams by Bachmann and it's a pleasure to operate.

If Lionel and other manufacturers' made their locomotives as bullet proof, powerful, and dependable as this Williams loco, I'd be very happy.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Yellowstone Special said:


> If Lionel and other manufacturers' made their locomotives as bullet proof, powerful, and dependable as this Williams loco, I'd be very happy.



That speaks very well for Williams. :smilie_daumenpos:

I have considered these units without purchasing and I think I'll give them a try...


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

I was Lionel loyal very much until sometime around 1996. 

I bought my first Williams engine around 1994 at a train show in southeast Florida, Port St. Lucie. For the money Williams had better quality and better performance then some of the Lionel engines being sold at that time.
I have more then a dozen Williams engines in my collection.

However I buy most of my new stuff from either Train World or Mario's on line as I can get much better deals then the Williams/Bachmann site has. Sometimes I pay almost a third of what Williams/Bachmann site has something listed for with Train World's website.

Lee Fritz


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> It's a bit different here is southeast Florida with train shows. Most people bring MTH items to sell, a few bring Lionel, and some bring Williams.
> 
> I know that Williams engines are good in quality but some people just getting into the hobby or who are "Lionel loyal" will walk away from an item once they see the Williams name.
> 
> Lee Fritz


I am a Williams (pre Bachman) fan and not really had a problem with any of them. A few years ago I installed TMCC in a pair Williams Genesis engines for a local club. Last month they had me check out one where one truck was not being powered. Turned out the worm gear was toast even though the gearbox was still full of red/tacky grease.

Don't kid yourself that Williams are bulletproof. I have no idea if the gear was brass or bronze but if brass just know they will fail long before a bronze gear will.

Pete


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Norton said:


> I am a Williams (pre Bachman) fan and not really had a problem with any of them. A few years ago I installed TMCC in a pair Williams Genesis engines for a local club. Last month they had me check out one where one truck was not being powered. Turned out the worm gear was toast even though the gearbox was still full of red/tacky grease.
> 
> Don't kid yourself that Williams are bulletproof. I have no idea if the gear was brass or bronze but if brass just know they will fail long before a bronze gear will.
> 
> Pete


Even so, it's been my experience that the Williams locomotive I have has been more bulletproof than any of my Lionel locos.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're happy with what Williams offers, by all means, go for it. Truthfully, I'm a command guy, and I love the much higher quality sounds that Lionel and MTH offer. I'm also a smoke guy, and the anemic smoke from Williams products just doesn't do it for me.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you're happy with what Williams offers, by all means, go for it. Truthfully, I'm a command guy, and I love the much higher quality sounds that Lionel and MTH offer. I'm also a smoke guy, and the anemic smoke from Williams products just doesn't do it for me.


Oh that's right, John. You're the guy who thinks every locomotive in O scale should billow out tons of smoke, including those ugly 44-tonners, even though the real ones had a top speed of only 20 mph. 

Just kidding, and therein lies the difference. I'm just a simple (minded ) conventional guy who doesn't care that much about command control, super prototypical sounds, and lots of smoke, except for my steam locos. 

So my tastes are probably less demanding and less sophisticated than many forum members here. But the grand kids and I enjoy running the simpler trains on the simple layout, and we're happy. 

Another good attribute of our O scale hobby and this forum. Both ends of the spectrum are covered. :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What good is a Super-Chuffer if you don't use smoke?


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Good point, John.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Over on OGR, there's a thread discussing the fact that Lionel's aquarium cars manufactured in the last year or two have a few notable flaws: 

One, the scenes no longer fill the two display windows properly. I noticed this flaw first-hand around this time last year, and promptly returned mine for a refund.

Second... this year folks are now saying that the new aquarium cars are being produced without interior illumination.  Can't imagine this is true, but that's what folks are apparently saying. If true, why even bother offering the car? 

Lastly, there's talk about whether the new cars have motors or an older-style gear-driven mechanism to keep the scenes moving. Apparently, motors haven't been used for a few years now, and the cars have reverted back to the older gear-driven mechanism. 

So the prices continue to increase, yet the most basic features we've come to love and expect from these whimsical cars get dropped like nobody's gonna notice. Right.... 

Who's responsible for building crap like this? I don't know. Could be Lionel stateside cutting corners when specs are given to their overseas factory. Or it could be just shoddy work at the factory, with no supervision on Lionel's part to demand better quality products. Either way, the consumer loses.

Seems unless we're paying VisionLine prices for VisionLine products, it's a crapshoot as to what's gonna be delivered by Lionel -- whether we're talking premium BTO products or just plain old open-stock products.

David


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Who's responsible for building crap like this? I don't know. Could be Lionel stateside cutting corners when specs are given to their overseas factory. Or it could be just shoddy work at the factory, with no supervision on Lionel's part to demand better quality products. Either way, the consumer loses.
> 
> David


Just my 2¢ but having watched this downward spiral for a couple of years I think it's probably a combination of both. A while back it was asserted that Lionel had QC personnel in China but I can't believe that the sort of defects we are seeing would happen if that was really the case. Squeezing a bigger margin out of sales by cutting back on really essential features is not a policy that I as a consumer think is acceptable. 

Sad really because I'd like to make allowances for effort but as matters stand I don't have much faith in these things being addressed. It also doesn't bode well for future product development, which concerns me as much as anything else. BTW, we still have not seen the UP Excursion car sets in the Lionel shipping schedule and after so many months of that I wonder if these cars are ever going to get made. They'd require different tooling from the 21" ABS cars issued to date and that may be a cost as well as available/suitable manufacturer issue for Lionel.

Still, I'm glad I already have enough products for my own amusement and Lionel replacement parts are readily available if you look around.  But I did not come into this hobby to spend most of my hobby time trying to do/arrange repairs!


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

I lost faith in buying or putting deposits down on BTOs after not some, but many disappointments, not in the product looks or details, but in the quality of workmanship especially Lionel. Personally, I think Lionel is killing the hobby with lack of quality control. It's latest PS1 sound car for myself its not what I expected, (maybe my standards are higher). My largest purchase in the Hobby ever the Lionel Vision line Big Boy. As a fan of the Big Boy like forever. The waiting, then delivery, then test running and it just sits there. Take it apart and void the warranty, or send it off and possible damage from shipping to or from? When you spend 1700.00 on an item, you expect it to work upon delivery. Same as an appliance that you spend that amount for. After 2 weeks it comes back, note indicated a harness came loose, possible through shipping. My thought it was not connected during assemble. After running it, putting on display, running again several times. The coal depletion quit working, light in tender went out. I decided to just let it be a display piece. But do still run occasionally. 
When I was still a steady reader of post at OGR, I was disappointed in how many accept these poor workmanship, lack of quality to deliver a quality product and as depicted in their catalogs with the quality and details as shown. I could add more Lionel items that have given me problems, but have had them fixed, some under warranty, others myself. 
Personally, I won't purchase anymore Lionel items. To many failures, lack of quality control, ridiculous overpriced freight cars from molds used long ago. 
I can say so far I have not had a problem with MTH or Weaver. With what I have, I can enjoy running trains for decades and not need to add another item. If "O" dies, I won't notice it in my lifetime. 
As an added, those I know who are also into "O", feel the same about Lionel, one time the leader in "O", scale running, innovation, quality, are all gone.
Also when I was in "N" scale, not once did I have a problem with a product or have to send in for warranty work. "N" was a new innovation to he Hobby, small motors, wheels, couplers, quality details not expected in such a small scale, but the manufacturers made it happen and increased details and kept quality and workmanship that should shame Lionel.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

Last night my very expensive and lightly used Lionel Legacy Red Bird commuter train set had one of its plastic connectors break.
It is plastic and I notice all of them seem to be slowly disintegrating.
Never had that happen with any of my Lionel or MTH trains before.

Adding that series of sets to my "No Buy List" due to QC issues:

1) LionChief Diesels - Obvious reasons
2) Lionel Legacy Commuter Sets - See my post
3) MTH Rail King Commuter (Long Island) set - Trainworld had to replace it 3 times before we got a non defective set.
4) MTH Rail King Passenger cars (Long Island) set - One passenger car arrived faulty and always shorts the track; had to disconnect the cars lighting to stop it from shorting.
4) MTH Rail King Long Island Passenger cars.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

HarborBelt 1970: I'm starting to doubt we'll ever see the UP Excursion train also. At this point, I hope it's made, let alone any additional cars in future catalogs. It keeps sliding right on the shipping schedule. Really hope I'm wrong but I'm not convinced we'll ever see it.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I haven't read the whole thread in a bit til tonight. When you put all this together are we surprised Mike left Lionel. It always seemed to me like he was the one fighting for the little guy in all this, us...


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Jeff,
I met Mike last summer for the first time in Indy. We had a polite, candid conversation about some of the QC, DOA problems, & catalog misrepresentations. He truly was concerned about issues as his personal intervention was required to fix my issue.

I wish him well wherever he goes. Great guy.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> HarborBelt 1970: I'm starting to doubt we'll ever see the UP Excursion train also. At this point, I hope it's made, let alone any additional cars in future catalogs. It keeps sliding right on the shipping schedule. Really hope I'm wrong but I'm not convinced we'll ever see it.


Thinking about this, there have been delays about Lionel passenger sets before and generally I don't think that MTH's disguised BTO policy (catalog something but don't actually put it in production for ages to see what the scale of orders is) has been adopted by Lionel. But this particular delay is telling because we know they can't "recycle" the existing ABS 21" cars' tooling for the Excursion Train while on the other hand I'd bet there was a high number of orders for this set. The delay looks symptomatic of an issue over the investment required to produce the sets being too high compared with the profit margin they are trying to extract - despite the number of pre-orders they have in the bag.

Anyway, although in recent memory Lionel has only cancelled a couple of things I really wanted - the different Legacy cab forward (I think an AC-5) and Acela reissue - I have a nasty feeling that the Excursion cars might be expendable from their point of view. It would be equally nasty from a customer's point of view if they kept cataloging the set instead of cancelling and thereby effectively pre-empted another manufacturer from making it.

I really hope I'm wrong about this. While I haven't indulged myself in a comment on the possible connection with Mike R's departure I have wondered about exactly the point made above about a possible link.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Today I was cleaning my layout and changing my passenger cars and was totally amazed at the weight of the extruded aluminum 18 inch cars. I forgot just how well they were made. I never gotten any 21 inch newer cars and really can't say if they are made as well or better then the older cars. But I sure do like the older 18 inch cars for their heft and their design.


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Norton said:


> I am a Williams (pre Bachman) fan and not really had a problem with any of them. A few years ago I installed TMCC in a pair Williams Genesis engines for a local club. Last month they had me check out one where one truck was not being powered. Turned out the worm gear was toast even though the gearbox was still full of red/tacky grease.
> 
> Don't kid yourself that Williams are bulletproof. I have no idea if the gear was brass or bronze but if brass just know they will fail long before a bronze gear will.
> 
> Pete


I know that nothing is really bullet proof so to speak. However for the money I have had less problems with Williams engines then any other brand so far.
Some of the Crown Edition passenger cars have problems with their truck assemblies; the ones with fixed couplers have been my biggest headache as they won't even stay on the track on a long straight stretch s I replaced them with new WBB trucks.

RMT powered engines and RDC passenger cars run very well and so far no problems.

Lee Fritz


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

The new Allegheny seems to have more than its share of issues. I've been reading about it on several other forums. 

As if it's not disappointing enough to get a lemon right out of the box, the QC done by some of the Lionel warranty repair is lacking at best. That surprises and concerns me.

I had the same issue last summer and Mike R personally fixed it.
I sent the locomotive to Lionel 3 times-all on their dime (veteran). 

I will not accept half @ss repairs...or, it runs for 10 Minutes and the issue is back. $1400 is a lot of money, especially if it's sitting on a shelf because it doesn't work as advertised...

Just my thought. Opinion.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

You guys keep buying stuff that you claim is not good. Why do you do that? I realize those expensive locos are beautiful but so many of you show your frustration and say you are through with this stuff while others just get it fixed and go on. It would be interesting to see some real figures on how many of what actually do have problems. It often sounds as if Lionel is the only company with this type of problem but I don't think that is true.
I'm a cheapskate and have NOTHING that cost over $300.00 and I have no problems with my stuff. I have 21 locos, 3 are post war,3 are TMCC and the rest are conventional and bought new. My locos are not fancy, few have sound which I don't care for anyway, none of my Diesels smoke, another feature I don't care much for but they all run when I want to play with my trains.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> The new Allegheny seems to have more than its share of issues. I've been reading about it on several other forums.
> 
> As if it's not disappointing enough to get a lemon right out of the box, the QC done by some of the Lionel warranty repair is lacking at best. That surprises and concerns me.
> 
> ...


This past weekend a club member took his new Alleghany out of the box, set it on the track and ran it two laps. Then it stopped and the cab light started blinking. In this case the dealer he bought it from was in the hall so back it went for repairs. This same dealer was telling me the new Legacy Cranes are made differently than the older TMCC cranes and he is seeing a lot come back for repairs.
I am expecting a pre order I made 5 years ago to show up next month. After that no more pre orders for me.

Pete


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## JimL (Aug 16, 2015)

I've been very lucky ..... no problems since I started back in the O hobby around 2009.

I don't have huge layouts and I'm not a collector, but .... I've had quite a few new Legacy and Atlas engines because I often sell things after a while, and then buy new stuff.

The only problem I ever had was that a Legacy Mikado I bought came with a blank memory module. I believe I sold this engine to the O.P., and a quick phone call to Lionel solved the problem.

So, I'm pleased with the quality. (My first engine purchase in a while, the Vision Line GG1, I should have it in the next few days, and it's a big deal for Christmas at my home. I hope I don't finally get a defective product. lol)


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

rogruth said:


> You guys keep buying stuff that you claim is not good. Why do you do that? I realize those expensive locos are beautiful but so many of you show your frustration and say you are through with this stuff while others just get it fixed and go on. It would be interesting to see some real figures on how many of what actually do have problems. It often sounds as if Lionel is the only company with this type of problem but I don't think that is true.
> I'm a cheapskate and have NOTHING that cost over $300.00 and I have no problems with my stuff. I have 21 locos, 3 are post war,3 are TMCC and the rest are conventional and bought new. My locos are not fancy, few have sound which I don't care for anyway, none of my Diesels smoke, another feature I don't care much for but they all run when I want to play with my trains.


I'm like you, but even more of a minimalist. I'm not a collector and sold off what locomotives I didn't like and am now down to only 7. One is post-war, one is a Lionel Legacy, and all the rest are modern conventional, as I run only conventional. All have sounds and smoke, with the exception of one that has no smoke.

Having spent so much on Lionel repairs in previous years, I've simplified and reduced down to what I have now and never been happier. Everything runs well, I do my own maintenance and repairs, either already have or have access to whatever spare parts are needed and am in that satisfied "feel good" state in the hobby.

I was going to expand my rather small, 88 square foot layout. But due to previous problems encountered with new locomotives (all Lionel), the expansion plans have been scrapped and I'm content with what I have. 

The only reason I can think of as to why many of our fellow hobbyists keep on buying more of the same problem-plagued new stuff is that they are either obsessed with having to have more and more of the newest or they just don't know what else to do with their money.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

It's kind of like cars, old vs new. The new cars today have a lot of electronics in them, some are good(listening to music from my phone without wires:thumbsup some are just dumb govt mandated save the stupid fat people(back up cameras, self driving features, ABS, ESC, TPMS, etc.. :smilie_daumenneg. But there have been problems with the older cars when they were new, just like there are problems with some of the cars today when they're new. And it's really too bad. The manufacture of these items(toy trains, cars) isn't rocket surgery. They've been doing it for decades. Sure we're adding more electronics to both the trains, and the cars, but the manufacture of electronics has gotten cheap and easy enough to allow them to add it. Elsewise they wouldn't. 

It seems a damn shame to me that we can't bother to just make the product right the first time(houses, cars toy trains whatever). Instead it's a mad rush to get the customers money, and as soon there's a problem it's like pulling teeth from a chicken to get it fixed.

FYI, the only new item I've purchased from Lionel was a Boy Scout 2010 anny RTR set. The CW80 transformer went kaput. I simply took it to my local hobby shop(now closed) and they exchanged it for another because it was a known issue. I didn't even buy the set from him, cuz I didn't know he existed when I bought the set online.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

It's not about obsession or having to have the latest/greatest. I simply missed the TMCC original and bought the Legacy reissues. Some have been awesome and others a disaster.

No concern now-mostly in 2R and I vote with my wallet. 

Lots of interesting comments in this thread. Glad we can have cordial, honest conversation without hurt feelings non-sense!


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I have stated before if I pay the large dollars for a engine it better be perfect right out of the box or it goes back for a refund. 

Now a days I don't worry about them as I am into 2 rail but when I was into 3 rail that above is how I operated and it is still the same with my two rail. 

Don't accept a bad product, it is up to you to hold the manufactures accountable.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

No doubt that the hi-tech locomotives from the importers are very fragile and tempermental. I have been very fortunate to not have any issues from spanking new locos. I have had a couple head to the repair shed after many years of use and kazillion of miles.

I have read the reports on one of the latest big buck release's from Lionel and it seems that quite a few are very disappointed in their purchase. I guess it is just the luck of the draw on what you end up with.

Bill


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

davidone said:


> I have stated before if I pay the large dollars for a engine it better be perfect right out of the box or it goes back for a refund.
> 
> Now a days I don't worry about them as I am into 2 rail but when I was into 3 rail that above is how I operated and it is still the same with my two rail.
> 
> Don't accept a bad product, it is up to you to hold the manufactures accountable.


Dave,
Agreed. We have the same view on THAT!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Holding a manufacturer to an impossible standard isn't going to solve the issue. Holding a manufacturer accountable for a problem is one thing, insisting on 100% perfection for every product shipped is a standard that no manufacturer meets, no matter how expensive the product is.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

John,
Agreed. It's an impossible expectation 100% are perfect out of
The box. I was agreeing with Dave's statement of holding them accountable for making it "right" when there's an issue.

I do expect a quality/correct repair when it is returned for warranty work. The recent 2-8-0 has been sent back 3 times with another RA after Christmas. I'd send it to you or Marty but it's in warranty and they need to be aware of the QC being shipped or it's never going to improve.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> John,
> I'd send it to you or Marty but it's in warranty and they need to be aware of the QC being shipped or it's never going to improve.


I see your point but I'm sure if we are aware of it, they are. hwell:

In my case, I have a few engines that need work and frankly I won't send them to Lionel, warranty or not. 

I had some great help from Mike R. but now he's gone, wherever, I don't expect the same level of response/assistance. On the other hand, my experience with independent repair specialists has been uniformly superior to reports coming back about Lionel's current service.


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