# Layout design and questions



## deanp (Mar 29, 2016)

Howdy, somewhat new to trains and have played a bit with the scarm software. Here is the layout me and the wife came up with which may have to have some changes based on what you all think. It is HO scale with 3 tracks. The outer track would be a freight track. The inner 2 tracks will be a passenger track. My idea was the train leaving the middle track would come back around and end up in the inside and the inside would end up on the middle. Kind of a departure and arrival scenario. 

I wanted the make it take a little longer than just running around the track and this is where the yellow and blue tracks come in. There would be a tunnel at the beginning and ending of the blue/yellow track. The idea is the train enters the tunnel then goes under the table and loops around coming back up on the opposite track. Hopefully there is enough room. It may end up an oval rather than just a loop to get the grade worked out. 

The lower freight line will have a branch that will come off to serve an industry or two. Still working on how that will be laid out. 

Here is the initial plan.









Please let me know what you think.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

The image did not load.

--OK,now it loaded


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Very unique! I don't think I have seen a layout like this.
That's an awful lot of track. 

What are the dimensions of this layout? Looks like 12 x 14 feet?

EDIT: Welcome to Model Train forum, deanp. Glad you joined.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

You are talking about running passenger trains and they need bigger radius turns.
What radius turns are you using? 

Magic


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## deanp (Mar 29, 2016)

Layout will be around 10x12 hopefully, have to share the room with the wife's sewing stuff so may have to cut it down a foot or so.

Most curves will be 18 but I have 22 also. Passenger trains will have an engine and probably 4 cars so not real long trains. Have read somewhere about starting with 22, 18 in middle and 22 at the end to kinda "transition the curve" Not sure if that really works or not. Right now with a simple oval the passenger cars all work on the 18" track. 

Open to any suggestions.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Firstly welcome to the forum. Interesting plan, it's what's commonly known as a spaghetti blender. I'm no expert when it comes to planning large layouts but I can see you are going to have several issues here. The grades coming up from under the table on the loops may be too steep and putting a tunnel there might be difficult due to the close proximity of the other tracks. I assume it will go up against a wall on two sides and even if you have access to all sides you'll have difficulty getting to the middle. Many people when starting out try to cram too much track in, less is often more. You need room to fit in industries,stations (if operating a passenger service) and landscaping. Its a railroad so you need to make the whole thing look credible. You might be better off adapting a plan which been proven to work but its up to you its your layout.

I'm sure others will be along to offer their suggestions as said I'm no expert.one tip, buythe best quality track and turnouts you can afford, it will save you heartaches and problems in the long run. Have fun.


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## santafewillie (Feb 13, 2016)

Welcome to the forum. I don't intend to discourage you and your efforts and this is not criticism, but I see problems. As *Cycleops* says, access *will* be an issue. Even if this is a stand-alone layout with access from all sides, some of the center area may not be accessible without leaning on top of something around the edge. Practical reach is about 32" at best, optimal is about 24" - 26". Some people are exceptions. You will have no access inside the tunnels without crawling underneath, provided you leave a hole there. No matter how "bullet-proof" your track is, trains will derail inside the tunnels where you have no access, especially at the turnouts and crossings. Murphy's law. Don't ask how I know this! 
Regarding passenger trains, it's not how long the train is, but how long the individual cars are. 22-18-22 should work for some brands, but will look extremely awkward.
The red track in the center will not work. Practical grade for most HO engines is 1" per every 4 feet, that's about 2%. You need at least 3" to clear anything running underneath and that leaves no hand room. I know that some will argue that 4%-5% is possible, but that is generally only on straight track.
Hopefully this information helps.

Willie


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

As others have pointed out, passenger cars tend
to be 70 to 85 scale feet long. On small radius
track the car ends protrude out and have a tendency
to pull each other off the rails. And they don't look
good. Perhaps designating the outer track, with it's
wider radius curves, as 
passenger would work.

There are also some freight cars nearing that
length and they would also find tight radius
curves unfriendly.

You appear to have continuous running trains in
mind. But after a while just sitting and watching
gets old for many of us. For that reason we try
to encourage a layout that offers good switching
capabilities. I'm afraid your one freight spur
is not going to give you much to do. In addition,
the relatively short 'tail' would mean you would
be able to switch only one car at a time, if that.

Access is very important. In spite of the best
track work and experienced operators, trains do
derail. It would be very tricky reraiing on
some of your inner tracks. A reach of 3 to 4
feet is usually about the maximum.

Are you considering DCC?

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

First of all. Rule #1 -- It's your railroad, you can do whatever you want. We are only providing suggestions.

Long passenger cars with body-mounted couplers will likely derail on tight curves.

However, long passenger cars with truck-mounted couplers often can run successfully on 18" curves -- but as mentioned above, they look rather unrealistic -- partly the overhang at the ends, but also the larger gaps between cars necessary for tight curves. The passengers in the coach are faced with leaping over a 5-6 scale foot gap to get to the diner.


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## deanp (Mar 29, 2016)

Really appreciate all of the comments here. I think I may have had the "eyes bigger than the stomach" syndrome. The passenger cars do have truck mounted couplers and after running them around I see what you mean on the 18" curves. I have some 22" that I may play with. This was kind of an initial plan that I''m sure as other have, it will get re-worked a few times. 

Don, yes the plan for the passenger was to have a departing train and an arriving train which would sort of be a constant running train. Really didn't think about that and I see where that could get old. (always helps to have others enlighten you)

As far as the spur, have not figured that one out yet, it was just placed on there to remind me there needed to be a way to drop freight to a few industries. The plan was to have a lumber mill to service as well as a couple smaller industries/buildings somewhere along the way. Might be better swapping the freight to the inside line.

I do plan to use DCC and have the Digitrax Zephyr system. 

Again, thanks for the input! Will go back to the drawing board and rethink things as well as the access as that seems to be a major overlook on my part.


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