# Converting from HO to N



## Bikewider (Nov 27, 2020)

Good morning to all happy thanksgiving.
So I have realized that HO scale does not fit in my room where I am doing my model set up. I have tried for seven months and have found the radius limitations do not work for me. Now I am converting to N scale. Though I realize very expensive it will be necessary to utilize the space better. My question is this. What are the limitations within N scale as far as radius is concerned, when it comes to choosing the proper locomotive type? 3 wheel bogeys or two wheel? 
I do not wanna make the same mistake again. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Scott


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I think they make all the way down to a 8" or so. I have 9.5" radius and can run anything on them ok. My autoracks get caught on the bridge railings at that scale, but they will negotiate the radius. I think trying to stick to an 11" or greater is a safe bet, but you can get tighter

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## Bikewider (Nov 27, 2020)

Excellent, thanks for the response


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I agree. I have a lot of Bachman EZ-Track 11.25" radius track, and everything I have tried works just fine. Most of the locomotives I have looked at online claim 9.25" or greater.

I try to keep it 12" or greater, just so the turns aren't too abrupt.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Ya, I will add that the longer cars look a little goofy on the tighter turns, even if they can manage it. 

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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

A good rule of thumb is that your curves' minimum radius can be no narrower than 2.5 the length of the car that will have to negotiate them, so a 3" car would take a 7-1/2" curve. BUT that doesn't consider overhang. To mitigate that, you now need 4x, or 12" for that same car. Anything between those two may be asking for trouble of your clearances are tight. If you have long cars and long three wheeled trucks ( bogies), I'd stay close to that 12" number.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I think that's a bit conservative. I run autoracks on 13.75" and even down to 11" or so. And as mentioned, they will negotiate a bit tighter (go slow) but the overhang gets caught on railings. I'll have to measure some of mine to be sure (some have mixed radius sections) of exact radius, but the overall width of my table is only 30" and the tracks are at least 2" from either edge putting me around 13" radius. By your measure I would need over 16". I can tell you the autoracks run reliably on my layout even at full throttle

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Bikewider said:


> Good morning to all happy thanksgiving.
> So I have realized that HO scale does not fit in my room where I am doing my model set up. I have tried for seven months and have found the radius limitations do not work for me. Now I am converting to N scale. Though I realize very expensive it will be necessary to utilize the space better. My question is this. What are the limitations within N scale as far as radius is concerned, when it comes to choosing the proper locomotive type? 3 wheel bogeys or two wheel?
> I do not wanna make the same mistake again. Thank you in advance for your assistance.
> 
> Scott


Bikewider;

I don't know if you think N-scale is "very expensive" in relation to HO-scale, or if you simply mean that since you have some money already invested in some HO-scale trains, then buying N-scale trains will add to your overall cost.
The first idea is not really true, though some believe that N-scale is "very expensive" compared to HO-scale, and you may hear that said. The truth is that HO-scale, and N-scale, prices are actually quite close, when you are comparing the same specific make & model of item in each scale.

The second idea is certainly true. You will need to spend money to buy more trains than you now have, regardless of what scale the trains are.

Regarding "3 wheel bogeys or 2 wheel bogeys," stick with the 2 wheel bogey type. They can handle the sharp curves you have in mind better than the 3 wheel bogey type.

From your question about "radius limitations within N-scale" I'm going to assume two things. (Please correct me if either of these assumptions is not true.)

1) You want some sort of circle, or oval, of track that a train can run around and around. We call that feature, "continuous running," and it is a limiting factor for most layouts.
There is another option that saves a lot of layout depth. That is a, "point-to-point" or "switching layout" that does not have continuous running. Therefore, no circles, or ovals, are necessary, and curve radius is no longer an issue. Most of the track on switching layouts is straight, and any curves do not have to form complete circles. This adds up to a layout that uses more length than depth, and is sometimes a way of fitting a larger scale into a small space. If you have 18"-24" of depth, and 48" or more of length available, then you could stay with HO-scale by building a switching layout. If you have 120" of length or more, you can build a point-to-point layout with a small switching yard at each end.

2) Assuming continuous running is something you must have, then your plan to switch to N-scale is necessary.
The figures quoted about minimum radius are somewhat subjective. The minimum radius track curve a given locomotive, or car, can possibly make it through sometimes, is not the same thing as the considerably larger radius where it will stay on the track reliably, even when backing up, and pushing a string of cars.

Atlas sectional track is widely used in both HO-scale and N-scale, and is sort of a De-facto standard for curve radii. The smallest curved piece of N-scale track Atlas sells is 9-3/4" radius. That's actually a pretty tight curve for N-scale. Its roughly equivalent to an Atlas section of curved HO-scale track with an 18" radius. Not all HO-scale equipment will make it through an 18" radius curve reliably, and not all N-scale equipment will make it through a 9-3/4" radius curve reliably. 

Its important to remember that track radius is measured from the center of the track, not from the outside edge of the track. When trying to figure out what will fit, allow at least an extra two inches above the diameter (twice the radius) of the curve for the extra width of track beyond the centerline on both sides. Its also necessary to allow some extra room for the overhang that cars and locomotives will have when they go through a curve. Thus a 180 degree loop built with 9-3/4" radius curve sections will need a layout depth of about 22"-24" to fit, and let trains run through it without hitting anything.

It would be a considerable help if you could let us know what exact space you actually have.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

TF, why is your text showing up as white? I can't see most of what you posted.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

JeffHurl said:


> TF, why is your text showing up as white? I can't see most of what you posted.


Upper right, click the 3 dots, then try the dark mode.
I run in the dark mode all the time, I am using a laptop not something else.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I think the point is that something is messed up with his post, not everyone else's computer

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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Dark Mode is much better!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

vette-kid said:


> I think the point is that something is messed up with his post, not everyone else's computer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


I saw half of what he wrote in the light mode and all in the dark mode, not sure why.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Big Ed said:


> I saw half of what he wrote in the light mode and all in the dark mode, not sure why.


Ya, half is white font. 

There is not a dark mode for Tapatalk

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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

vette-kid said:


> Ya, half is white font.
> 
> There is not a dark mode for Tapatalk
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


That is why I added what I am using, my laptop, I figured maybe it might be different while using another device.


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## BobT (Mar 27, 2021)

Left click and drag over the white parts to read.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Ya, half is white font.
> 
> There is not a dark mode for Tapatalk
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


That would be a pretty good argument against using Tapatalk, then. Dark mode is much easier on the eyes than the standard mode.


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## Bikewider (Nov 27, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Bikewider;
> 
> I don't know if you think N-scale is "very expensive" in relation to HO-scale, or if you simply mean that since you have some money already invested in some HO-scale trains, then buying N-scale trains will add to your overall cost.
> The first idea is not really true, though some believe that N-scale is "very expensive" compared to HO-scale, and you may hear that said. The truth is that HO-scale, and N-scale, prices are actually quite close, when you are comparing the same specific make & model of item in each scale.
> ...


Thank you for the info. Just to clarify, referencing the expensive part. Switching from HO to N, especially when dealing with KATO causes the checkbook to shrink a bit quicker. I'm using this as part of my inexperience and learning curve.
Separate question: Does KATO locomotives have unique couplers that are not universal to most rolling stock?


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## Bikewider (Nov 27, 2020)

Thank you for the info. Just to clarify, referencing the expensive part. Switching from HO to N, especially when dealing with KATO causes the checkbook to shrink a bit quicker. I'm using this as part of my inexperience and learning curve.
Separate question: Does KATO locomotives have unique couplers that are not universal to most rolling stock?


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Bikewider said:


> Thank you for the info. Just to clarify, referencing the expensive part. Switching from HO to N, especially when dealing with KATO causes the checkbook to shrink a bit quicker. I'm using this as part of my inexperience and learning curve.
> Separate question: Does KATO locomotives have unique couplers that are not universal to most rolling stock?


In N-scale, Kato couplers do NOT work well or play well with others. 

Best bet: If running other brands of freight cars or passenger cars with Kato locomotives, convert the locos over to Micro Trains (MTL) couplers.

If running Kato passenger cars with Kato locos, simply leave the Kato couplers in place. They're still good couplers with each other, even though they don't very well with other brands of couplers.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> TF, why is your text showing up as white? I can't see most of what you posted.


Jeff;

I'm not sure what you mean. The print is white, and the background black on all of everybody's posts, including mine. I do sometimes highlight a few words I want to emphasize by using yellow text. Is that what you mean ? Reading through the other responses, it seems some saw part of my text in dark mode, and some other parts not in dark mode? I have no idea how that could happen. I'm using a laptop and to me all my text is white and all the background is black. The same is true for everybody's responses as far as I can see. Is white print against a black background not dark mode?

Traction Fan


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

traction fan said:


> Jeff;
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean. The print is white, and the background black on all of everybody's posts, including mine. I do sometimes highlight a few words I want to emphasize by using yellow text. Is that what you mean ?


Like Jeff, the background is white on my home computer. Therefore, can't read the white letters.

However, if you click, hold, and drag across the empty space as suggested in order to hi-lite, the selected area shows up as a blue background, and allows us to see the white letters.

Once again, this is on my home computer screen. Something must be glitching between the Androids or laptops or other devices and the MTF software.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

TF, you are in dark mode. Dark mode is a color scheme to present the whole screen one way or the other. I didn't even know dark mode existed. My text was black and the screen was white until I switched to dark mode.

Once I switched to dark mode, the colors swapped, and I could see all the words.

Somehow, you forced some of the text to white, which in essence made the words invisible. I could see the yellow text, but on a white background, it was washed out and hard to see.


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## BobT (Mar 27, 2021)

I am trying to imagine reading a book, (a real paper paged book), with black pages and white letters....Hmmmm

Nope....


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> TF, you are in dark mode. Dark mode is a color scheme to present the whole screen one way or the other. I didn't even know dark mode existed. My text was black and the screen was white until I switched to dark mode.
> 
> Once I switched to dark mode, the colors swapped, and I could see all the words.
> 
> Somehow, you forced some of the text to white, which in essence made the words invisible. I could see the yellow text, but on a white background, it was washed out and hard to see.


Jeff;

Thanks for letting me know that I am using dark mode, I wasn't sure, though on my laptop, everybody's posts looked like mine, (white print on a black background.) I have no idea how part of my message came out the other way around (black print on a white background) All of them look the same on my end, (white print on a black page.) I'm happy you were able to straighten things out and read my message.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Mixed Freight said:


> Like Jeff, the background is white on my home computer. Therefore, can't read the white letters.
> 
> However, if you click, hold, and drag across the empty space as suggested in order to hi-lite, the selected area shows up as a blue background, and allows us to see the white letters.
> 
> Once again, this is on my home computer screen. Something must be glitching between the Androids or laptops or other devices and the MTF software.


Mixed Freight;

According to jeffhurl's latest post, he was able to switch to dark mode and read everything. You might see if this is possible on your home computer. Nearly everyone on the forum appears to be using dark mode, since their posts come out with white text on a black background. Perhaps that's just the way my computer is presenting the posts to me, since your post came out as white print on a black background.

Traction Fan


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

BobT said:


> I am trying to imagine reading a book, (a real paper paged book), with black pages and white letters....Hmmmm
> 
> Nope....


And I am trying to imagine a book where the light source is behind the pages..... Hmm.  Nope... 

A computer screen isn't a book, and never will be. The level of eye strain caused by the blue light emitted by electronic devices is well documented. I also use my tablet as an e-reader, and it's very difficult to spend any great length of time reading black text from a white, back-lit screen. I always use "night mode" for that, which changes the background to a gentle orange. Much easier on the eyes. So is dark mode for reading the forums.

Don't knock it if you haven't given it a fair chance.


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## BobT (Mar 27, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Mixed Freight;
> 
> According to jeffhurl's latest post, he was able to switch to dark mode and read everything. You might see if this is possible on your home computer. Nearly everyone on the forum appears to be using dark mode, since their posts come out with white text on a black background. *Perhaps that's just the way my computer is presenting the posts to me*, since your post came out as white print on a black background.
> 
> Traction Fan


That's how most forums work. The theme you pick is for you, and only you. 
Every post I read here, is black on white, which is what I prefer.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I'm on dark mode for any site that will support it, including my Chrome browser and Windows 11. 

In addition to text being easier to read, it reduces backlight use for the screen and will extend its life.


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## BobT (Mar 27, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> And I am trying to imagine a book where the light source is behind the pages..... Hmm.  Nope...
> 
> A computer screen isn't a book, and never will be. The level of eye strain caused by the blue light emitted by electronic devices is well documented. I also use my tablet as an e-reader, and it's very difficult to spend any great length of time reading black text from a white, back-lit screen. I always use "night mode" for that, which changes the background to a gentle orange. Much easier on the eyes. So is dark mode for reading the forums.
> 
> Don't knock it if you haven't given it a fair chance.


I have...many times. Dark mode gives me a headache.
But I also keep my monitor brightness down. Most people keep their monitors way too bright.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> Mixed Freight;
> 
> According to jeffhurl's latest post, he was able to switch to dark mode and read everything. You might see if this is possible on your home computer. Nearly everyone on the forum appears to be using dark mode, since their posts come out with white text on a black background. Perhaps that's just the way my computer is presenting the posts to me, since your post came out as white print on a black background.
> 
> Traction Fan


Text SHOULD appear black in normal mode and white in dark mode. The individual user setting on his machine don't affect that: the forum software does. Whether you are in normal or dark mode when you post makes no difference to the reader.

That said, you seem to have found the exception: when you change the color of some text to yellow, you are apparently hard-coding the rest of it to white somehow, so that it overrides the embedded color switching and doesn't display properly in normal mode.

Regardless of whether most users are in dark mode or not, I wouldn't say telling everyone just to use dark mode is the right answer.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

BobT said:


> I have...many times. Dark mode gives me a headache.
> But I also keep my monitor brightness down. Most people keep their monitors way too bright.


But that's an jndividual issue, and a long, long way from there being something wrong with dark mode because it doesn't conform to your sense of what should be normal (things superficially resembling paper and black ink). For most people, it's not the brightness, it's the wavelength of the light emissions from the screen.

Right now, posting with a window behind me, my tablet has to be pretty bright for the screen to even show up in normal mode.


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## BobT (Mar 27, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> But that's an jndividual issue, and a long, long way from there being something wrong with dark mode because it doesn't conform to your sense of what should be normal (things superficially resembling paper and black ink). For most people, it's not the brightness, it's the wavelength of the light emissions from the screen.
> 
> Right now, posting with a window behind me, my tablet has to be pretty bright for the screen to even show up in normal mode.


Not arguing with you, just saying what works for me. Whatever works for you, is all good. 

I had no problem with the white text on white. I've seen it many times on other forums. Folks talking movies or sports, and don't want to give away spoilers, type in white. If anyone _wants_ to read it, they just left click, hold, and drag over the white text, and read it. Simple.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Dark mode for me is when a loco's light stops working.

All of my rolling stock behaves quite well with 9.5" radius Atlas curves, including my Rivarossi Y6b, and my Atlas whale bellies.















The Y6b has three axle Buckeyes that handle the curves just fine. The overhang is pretty obvious, but I lose little sleep over that. The layout was free and the rolling stock tracks solidly on well laid track. I did replace two of the curves of sectional track with flex because the joints were picking the flanges on my Bachmann 4-8-4 Northern's pilot truck...BTW, that loco has four axle trucks on its tender. It handles 9.5" just fine.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Back to the original topic: Welcome to N scale! IMHO it is the best scale to model in. Almost all N scale rolling stock will negotiate 9.5" minmum radius curves because that is the radius of the smallest curve offered in Atlas sectional track, the most popular and available track in N scale's early history. I prefer to limit my curves to 11" minimum for mainlines and only use less in special locations like yards and sidings.
Kato makes excellent N scale locomotives, but they are not the only game in town, and are actually a bit difficult to find DCC (and moreso sound) equipped. Broadway Limited is my go to loco brand, excellent detail and already DCC and sound equipped, competitively priced by the discount online sellers. For an unbiased review of almost every N scale American prototype locomotive ever made check out N-Scale Locomotive Encyclopedia (North American Prototypes) my go to bible when buying locomotives new or used.
If you are talking about Kato N scale sectional track, yes it is excellent but quite expensive, and suffers from the same malady as every sectional track out there, the lack of easement transitions between curves and straights. Lack of easements is what still leaves us with a toy like look and operation that also leads to derailments. Easements are the decreasing radius of the curve as it approaches the straight. Think of an entrance ramp to an expressway as a commonly encountered easement: The entrance starts with a tighter curve that gradually straightens in the blend lane, allowing you to accelerate comfortably and safely into the faster traffic. Compare that to a city street corner of a single radius, or turns on thrill rides that lack the transitions and whip you at the end. If it wasn't for transitions on railroads you would not be able to stand up in a train as it curved and your soup would end up being flung across the car at the end of each curve. To create easements in layouts, flex track must be used. Most track planning software that allows flex track such as the excellent and free Xtrkcad layout planning software for windows, Mac or Linux operating systems that I use automatically adds easements as set in your preferences.


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