# Reg Layout



## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi

I'm attempting to finally create a layout, my little one has expressed an interest in trains, so I manage to find my old Lima set from many years ago.

Since space is an issue I'm going to be limited to an 1800 x 1200 board. So here's the layout I'm going for.










As I need a second contoller for the outside loop, I'll be getting a Hornby Thomas the Tank engine set (since he likes Thomas and it might keep him interested a while longer), although it's pretty limiting this side of the world on what you can get. 

The controller I have a Thyristor Control Unit by Radar it has 3 outputs
(i) Controlled output 12v DC
(ii) Uncontrolled Output 12v DC
(iii) Output 15V ac Total output load 1.5amps.

Can I use (ii) or (iii) to control the points?

I don't think I need to go common rail or bus wiring.

Just to get my head around it , if PT05 is closed then the spur is dead.

If PT05 and PT06 is thrown then Spur 01 & 02 are dead - Spur 03 live

If PT05 is thrown and PT06 & 07 are closed spur 01 & 03 are dead- Spur 02 live

If PT05 & 07 are thrown and PT06 is closed spur 02 & 03 are dead- Spur 01 live

Cheers


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Well got the board and laid it all out to see. Will have to shorten the loops abit, a little too close to the edge.

The plan I have in there has a timesaver shunting, but may to leave it for now.

I was thinking about doing an iron ore freight on the inside and the passenger on the outside.

However for now just have to work on the electrics

Cheers


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

looks like you're little one will have a blast with that 

the only thing about passenger trains is they are longer cars so need wide corners to work, and even wider to look good.

I'd just keep to shorty cars to make it look and work good


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

With a couple of exceptions, the Thomas equipment is short, so I think he'll be okay in that area.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Did you get the answers to your questions?;

Which Power Pack output for the points/turnouts--use iii. Most turnout
motors are designed to use the 14v AC accessories terminals
on your power pack.

You can answer your own question of whether the 
specified turnouts are 'power routing'. (Power routing
is defined as shutting off the power to the frog rail
of diverting when points are set for straight through...
and also the opposite.)

So, use a volt/ohm meter set to DC. Power your rails
and check the voltage of each turnout diverting and
straight as you move the the points to each position.
Any zero read means the spur is dead when
points are set straight.


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Short answer no, but thanks on the answers so far. Can I get conformation on one thing (maybe a few more) as my electrical knowledge is not very good.

I connected just the one controller just to give it a run and found I had problems.

I'm going to run this layout anti-clockwise, if this is wrong for this layout, then please let me know.

The power connection to the rail has to be outside of PT 01 and PT 04 from the photo I had power connected inbetween PT 01 and PT 04. Removing both sidings and having two loops, when I opened PT 01 02 03 & 04. No power to the second loop until I closed PT 04. When I moved the power connection to the outside of PT 01 and PT 04 for the same situation then all good. So basically the points PT 01 & PT 04 isolated the power.

When I closed PT 02 and PT 03 the power was lost to the inside loop.

Question: When the Hornby controller was used I was measuring 17V with my old controller 13V is this a problem if not would it be better to use the Hornby controller on the inside loop or it really doesn't matter?

As I'm using Hornby points (R8072. R8073 & R8076) I'm assuming that there is a wire connecting the rails under the frog and I don't have to do any additional wiring if I want to use the points as isolators?

Cheers


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I looked at the Horby site and was
surprised that they gave little in the
way of information about their
turnouts.

From what you say it does appear that they
are 'power routing'. There may be visible
connection points on the bottom of the turnouts.
There are on my Pecos. However, it may be
easier to simply attach a power drop to the
rails of the tracks connected to the frogs if
you want uninterrupted power. That's what I
do with my power routing Pecos.

Sometimes the power routing can be a favorable
feature; for example, to park a loco on a spur so
it won't move when the main is powered. 

Since you are running DC, the voltage on the
track will vary as you change the speed, I doubt
you'll want to run at the full power pack output
track voltage so the difference in the two power
packs is not meaningful. I am assuming you
have isolated the 2 ovals and are connecting them
to the 2 power packs through double pole double
throw (DPDT) switches that enable you to control
a train in outer with one pack and a train on the
inner with the other. 

Yes, counter clockwise would be the best direction
for your trains on this layout. 

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks.

I have isolated the loops between PT 01 & PT 02 and PT 02 & PT 04, however I'm not sure why you would want to use a switch, each controller has it's own power supply.

Cheers


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I see that you have insulators in the rails
between 1 & 3 and also between 2 and 4. That is correct.

The reason for the DPDT switches is to enable you to electrically
move a train from one oval to the other through the turnouts.

You must be able to power both inner or outer oval by EITHER
controller to make this work right. Thus you connect
the track of each oval to the center terminals on a DPDT and
one power pack to end terminals A, the other power pack
to end terminals B. 

The required polarity match would be thru the power pack controls 
you must maintain a match with all of your wiring.

It would make it all easier if you have 'off' switches for
on at least one spur so a loco can be parked there while you
are moving the other loco from one oval to another.

DC does get tricky and complex, which is why many of
us have moved to DCC which eliminates all of the above.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes I have insulators in the rails.

I think I know what you mean. I thought that once the loco passes over the insulators the other controller takes over. However, if power is taken by the loco from two or three sets of wheels then in theory it would be under control of both controllers at the same time as it passes over the insulator.

Do you/or anyone have a diagram of this or link.

I guess this brings me to track feed, I've been reading that you need to do this every 600mm, I wasn't going to solder the joints and this stage. Or do I just round around with a volt meter and place one where the voltage starts to drop off.

Cheers


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You would not want to have your loco taking power from two
power packs at the same time. That is why you use the DPDT
switches. You route the current of the power pack that is
controlling your train by throwing the switches ahead of
the loco. That means that any other loco in the destination
track will also be switched to that power pack, so you
should have it moved to a 'dead' track before starting
the maneuver.

Yep, DC is complex and so is the wiring when you
use two power packs and two or more connected
ovals.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

This is what I found, where would I put this switch










Cheers


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi

I'm trying to work out how to wire up an isolating point on my track using a red/green LED indicating to stop or go.

My first question is can I isolate the track on the negative side rather than the positive side?

The LED has 3 prongs one +ve (in the middle) and two -ve I was going to use a SPDT switch to control the negative side to light up the LED. The positive would come of the positive on the rail.

The resistor would go on the positive of the LED leg


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It's not clear what you want the LED to indicate.

As I recall, you connect the middle wire of
a RED/GREEN LED to your negative power.

Positive to the LONG wire will give you RED.
Positive to the 3rd wire will give you GREEN.

Since your layout is DC it would be better to
control the LED with a switch. But the
circuit again depends on what you are intending.
Your track polarity will change as you reverse
your trains so that must be taken in consideration
in your circuit design. When track is not powered
the LED would go off.

Will this be an indicator that an isolated track is 
powered?

Or something else?

I see your LED circuit but it doesn't follow the
way an LED wires are connected. The LED also
would require a current limiting resistor (about 470 ohms
or so) since an LED
normally has a 1.5 to 3 volt rating and your
track could go as high as 14 volts.

Give us more info to work with.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

I would like the LED to indicate that the isolated track is power. So above when there is no power, the LED is red and when there is power it's green.

I didn't think of what will happen when it reverses.

I guess that answers my question of can I put the switch on the negative since it will be negative at some point if the trains are moving forward or backward on this section of track.

Cheers


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The simple way to indicate when an isolated section of
tracl is powered would use a Double throw, Double pole
switch. DPDT.

Connect the track rail to the center tab of one switch pole.
Connect the feed from your power pack to the 'left' tab
of that pole. Nothing to the right tab.

Note: the other rail of the track does not have an
insulated joiner. Only the rail connected thru
this switch would have the insulated joiner.

Connect the center wire of your RED/GREEN LED to
a 12 V DC Negative source. (not the power pack track
current)

Connect the short wire to the LEfT tab of the 2nd pole.
Connect the Long wire to the RIGHT tab of the 2nd pole.

Connect the Positive 12 V DC source through a 470 ohm
resistor to the center Tab of the 2nd pole. (not the
power pack track current).

How it works:

When you want the track 'dead' you flip the switch to
the RIGHT. Track loses power and RED LED comes on.

When you want the track powered you flip the switch
to the LEFT. Track gets power, and GREEN LED comes on.

The LED would be lighted whether or not a train is running.

If you have one of the little WALL WARTS that are used to
charge phones etc. check the label on it. It will say what
it's output voltage is and whether AC or more likely DC.
This could be used to power your LED. It may be very
close to the LED voltage, if so you may not need the
resistor. We can work this out once knowing it's voltage.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi Don

Is this what you meant, however I don't think it works in the reverse direction.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Nope

You do not want the LED to have any connection
whatever to the track or track power.

First, as you notice, the track polarity reverses as
you change direction of loco,

Second, the LED would go out when you
stop the train.

The track power is switched by one side the DPDT switch.
The LED power is switched by the other side but not connected
to the track power. Though there is the one switch
it uses two different power sources.

You must have a second source of power for the LED. It can
be the Accessory terminals on your Power pack, but we'd
need to use a rectifier and resistor to bring the 14 V ac
down to the DC voltage of the LEDs. Easy to do. Or one of the wall
warts I mentioned. 

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi Don

How about this, I'm not sure if I need a rectifier in this situation.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Looks good. That will do what you want.

You are showing a 14 v DC source, thus you would
not need a rectifier. If it were AC I would use
a bridge rectifier, just 4 diodes in a circle.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks, ok next phase.

I would like to place in some signal lighting to indicate blocks and which point is open or closed. Can I get some comment if I'm on the right track.

Cheers


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

No, I have to say I'm not sure why you have pairs of signals so closely located with each other.

When we talk about defining track blocks, it's not just one physical piece of snap track, it's a section of track that will be isolated as an electrical section. On real railways a signal block could be 1-2 miles long. Spaced far enough that typically a train will fit into a block, and close enough to keep following trains moving behind it. Travelling in one direction, you'd encounter a single signal at each boundary between blocks. In the simplest case, the signal would be one of three colours:

Red - occupied. Stop.
Yellow - clear, but next signal is red. Prepare to stop.
Green - clear

It gets more complicated if you take into account switch positions and alternate routes, but that's the sense of it.

Reading your drawing, you have pairs of signal locations, one showing only red/green and another one about a foot or so in front of it only showing red/yellow. This doesn't actually make any logical sense. Dividing each loop into two equal sections is fine, but you'd have one signal at each point, capable of red/yellow/green.

It looks like you're including switch position indicator lights separately. That's OK. I think I see what you're doing there, although it looks a little confused around the crossovers.

The red lights at the end of each spur track are not necessary, but OK. Some older train sets include lighted bumpers, and I assume that's what you're doing there.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

What do you plan for track occupancy detectors?
Something has to select the red/yellow/green
LED. To do that is must have some way of
knowing that a train is in each 'block'.

There are several different possibilities. Perhaps
the most economical would be infra red. 

I have a transistor circuit that might work for your
turnout point position indicator. What are you
using for turnout motors?

Your post indicates 3 rail track, but it seems that
you actually are using 2 rail if I recall correctly.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi Don

I wasn't planing on using track occupancy detectors, was going to keep it simple and just use switches and the LED's. I'll only have two trains running on it.

I used a CAD program and the third line is a centre line.

Hi CV_ACR

Thanks for the explanation, it makes more sence now. I'll get rid of the Y/G LED's as I have only spilt the loops into two. I'll put a R/G LED at the points on the diverging track side to show that's it's either open or closed.

Cheers


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi

Based on the layout in post #2 and the direction of travel is anti-clockwise. 

Which way would the signal lights face on the sidings?

For example the where PT01 and PT02 are I would have a signal light located between the two loops, when it is green the train can cross over from the outside loop to the inside loop, when red it continues on

Cheers


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The circuits to control your R/G LEDs will depend on the
type of turnout motors you will be using.

If Tortoise, they have built in switches that will change
the R/G to properly indicate point position. A simple DPDT
switch for each turnout.

If Twin Coil solenoid There is a Center off Momentary Straight
or divert switch that has an electronic circuit that will also
change and continue lighting LEDs to indicate point position.
There was a link to the product in one of this forum's threads
but i could not find it. Else, you would need a DPDT for
each turnout, one side would be motor control the other
side would control the LEDs. In addition there is a normally
open momentary button that actually provides the pulse of
power to the turnout motor. Awkward to use.

Normally the block or trackside signals face oncoming traffic.
So you would have to determine that for each location.
If you are doing simple point direction indicators, those are
normally on the turnout control panel but can also be 
trackside.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks, I'm using the twin coil solenoid and the switches are from this site:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/751D.HTM


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm glad you found the link. That is exactly the device I was
referring to. Now I can keep it in file for future reference.

They throw the twin coil solenoids yet hold in position to
power point position LED indicators.

They are not that expensive either.

I wish I knew of them when I built my turnout panels.

Don


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi

After some search the layout has been nailed down to this










Now after a few months of playing with it, maybe I can improve it a bit, so I came up with this.










What I like about this layout is
- that the two main loops now have bigger radii
- each loop has is own siding / shunting area
- I can join the two siding areas together and run them using a 3rd controller while the two loops have their own controller (sometime in the future)

Or have I complicated things too much


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I don't think that's overly complicated. I would prefer to see you "complicate" it by breaking out of that rectangular mold and have tracks that undulate realistically rather than rigidly follow the edges of the layout, but that's just my personal taste.


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## regme (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, your right, however my base board is portable so it's size is a bit limiting. Maybe the next build.


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