# The secrets of Lionel 2020



## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Hi guys,

I would like to see your thoughts about the 2020, variations, engine, repairs and restoration. I will get one of this ones soon.....




Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*1946 version of 671 & 2020*

Gustavo, This thread is mainly for your benefit, and I am NOT the 100% authority on these locos, but know enough to to be dangerous!!! This post is to explain how the 1946 versions, differ from the later ones from 1947-1952, and just the 671-2020's. They are exactly the same with the only exception of the number stamped on the shell.
These units have a different frame from the later issues, and the motor is mounted flat or horizontally, and the motor has a gear to engage to an axle with gears on either end to turn the drive wheels. The motor used is #2020M-1, and has a brush plate at rear with jacks and a plug and wire cord. The E unit also is mounted horizontally, and has a spring inside to force the plunger back to normal. The direction is controlled with the wired plug, in the appropriate jack. The body of the loco did not have a slot cut into the top for the E unit lever, and is smooth across the top. The body has part#671-3, and the same body was used on all the successive S-2 turbines, up through 1952. The molds or castings were just modified by Lionel, to fit each application. The basic body was used on the 671/681/682/2020, and the number 671-3 is on ALL bodies.

End of lesson #1.....Gustavo


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Good lesson number 1 Doc 

I don't have one, but it is said to run better on O track than o/27.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2020_loco.htm , hey doc if I remember correctly there was a turbine that could couple any were on the track?don't remember if it was a version of the 2020. It had a red mark on the side ( I think) to identify it. The whole set was able to couple any were on the track by pushing a corresponding button.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Forgot to add some have added weight to them and some dont. Never figured that one out. It's not aftermarket weight but added from the factory.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

How reliable are this locos, completely different engine layout, I read some post that the engine dies pretty soon....


Gustavo


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Forgot to add some have added weight to them and some dont. Never figured that one out. It's not aftermarket weight but added from the factory.


The 2020 didn't have magnatraction, maybe the added weight helped?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Mine runs and pulls like a champ. I didn't even do a compleat overhall of the engine. I'm sure doc has similar stories. 
Yea ed, I'm thinking the same but it's a heavy engine without the weight. I got to find the old thread. I dont remember if mine had the weight or not.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=21145&highlight=Lionel+2020 this is the thread I was thinking of. Some info here, also a short video of my layout.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Why are more expensive than the 2037 and the others at same time,



Gus


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The 2020/671 locos are larger, better motors, and just overall better locos, compared with the 2037. There are a lot more 2037's around and available in sets, compared to the S-2 turbines. The 2020 typically runs in the $150+ range, with the Very good condition, and more in better condition.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> The 2020/671 locos are larger, better motors, and just overall better locos, compared with the 2037. There are a lot more 2037's around and available in sets, compared to the S-2 turbines. The 2020 typically runs in the $150+ range, with the Very good condition, and more in better condition.


What about the motor in long term in comparison with the regular motor brothers.




Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The motor is very good, strong runners, as long as it is maintained like other motors. It is one of the easiest to work on, in my opinion, and needs very little major work. Just the normal lubrication, and keeping the brushes in good shape, clean armature it it won't fail you. I even bought a used motor for a good price only to find out the field windings were broken in numerous spots. I started to just toss the motor, then decided to experiment with it. I removed all the wire from the coil, ground down the rivets to pull the coil assembly off the motor casting. I bought a spool of the same size wire, and started to rewind the motor. After rewinding the coil, I slipped the studs back thru the motor, drilled and tapped and reattached everything. It runs as good, if not better than the others I own. 

They Are the easiest motors from postwar to rehab.

The early motors of the 671M-1 or 2020M-1 have brush tubes that stick out from the brush plate, compared to the later motors 681-100 which eliminated the extended brush tubes, and use shorther brushes. The early ones have springs inserted then the brush, into the brush holder. the later ones have just a brush, and the "paper clip" style spring holds the brush that has a slot in the end that the paper clip type sprind holds it in place. 

Contrary to what some may believe, the brush plates with brush tubes (671M-5 brush plate) can be swapped with the later version from a 681-100 motor. And vice versa. They will run with either brush plate. The bearings on both ends of the armature on the early version motors are single tiny ball bearings, that are loose, and if you take the motor apart, the bearings roll all over. The later motor now use part ???681-182, (not positive without looking it up), which are bearings pressed into a brass bearing race, and can't fall apart. They can be used to rebuild the motor, with the correct thrust washer thickness, to get the right end play from front to back of the motor. Really, they have to be the simplest motor to rebuild.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> The motor is very good, strong runners, as long as it is maintained like other motors. It is one of the easiest to work on, in my opinion, and needs very little major work. Just the normal lubrication, and keeping the brushes in good shape, clean armature it it won't fail you. I even bought a used motor for a good price only to find out the field windings were broken in numerous spots. I started to just toss the motor, then decided to experiment with it. I removed all the wire from the coil, ground down the rivets to pull the coil assembly off the motor casting. I bought a spool of the same size wire, and started to rewind the motor. After rewinding the coil, I slipped the studs back thru the motor, drilled and tapped and reattached everything. It runs as good, if not better than the others I own.
> 
> They Are the easiest motors from postwar to rehab.
> 
> ...



Doc,

Can you post pics of yours #2020´s, probably a video?? :ttiwwop: Whats the one who rolls on a 027 track? Im been looking on Ebay and there is a good deals loco and tender, no complete set as I would like to have but on budget $100-300. Because is a large loco I guess I have to buy a beefy transformer ZW, good deals as well.

What Im impress is everyone is buying vintage locos, in a few years is going to be virtually impossible to get one!! Nows the time, Buy, buy, buy and pay later!!



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Two websites I want you to check out*

i want you to check two websites to increase you understanding of you new found hobby. Please check www.tandem-associates.com & www.olsentoys.com.

The Tandem site will help you identify all the "O" gauge stuff, that was available during the Postwar period. It is a very good site to look things up.

The Olsen site is a fabulous site to find parts, and they also have a "Library" section that you can look up different locos from Prewar, & Postwar. They have Repair book pages listing all the parts, with part numbers for just about every Lionel train that was made. Just log onto the site (free), and look for the link that says "Library". When I log on, the Library link is at the bottom, right hand side of the page. It will bring up a list starting with "Postwar locomotives, and much much more! 

If you can get to that link, click on "Postwar locomotives", then scroll down the page until you see 671 (multiple versions), and scroll down to the 2020 link, and it may just show pages of part numbers, and have the number 671 reference at the top left. That indicates that the 671 & the 2020 are one and the same loco, just different number on the body. 

These two websites will answer a lot of questions, or cause a lot of question, to understand what you are reading. You are going to get overloaded with information, but eventually it will become understandable. I was basically in the same situation as you back about 7 years ago, with so many questions, and just kept searching what I wanted to know. I also spent a lot of money on books, all geared to "O" gauge. Constant reading, asking question on the different forum, I started to gain immense knowledge, and jumped into doing my own repairs, but I have one problem that I can't fix YET. I need to get the wheels from MY Original 2020, pressed back onto the frame. No Lionel shop close near me, has a wheel press, so I have to come up with another solution. The wheels need to be put on correctly to eliminate binding of the linkage, which is referred to as "Quartering" the wheels. I'll explain that later.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

sjm9911 said:


> Forgot to add some have added weight to them and some dont. Never figured that one out. It's not aftermarket weight but added from the factory.


I haven't had a 2020 for years. They are exceptionally good, at least some of them, like the one I had. They were among the bigger cast-metal locos and heavy, so I always assumed they ran well partly just because they were heavy.

From what I have seen and been told, Lionel made changes to body shell casings of its steamers throughout the pre- and post-war period. One of those reasons was that they added weight -- and didn't at other times - to several of its different steamers by varying how much metal wascast in, around, and particularly under the cab floor, making in solid - up to 1/2 inch thick in some models. They may have added weight in other places too by varying the thickness of the shell in other places, too, but I don't know that for sure. I don't know if this is why some 2020s pulled better than others, but it is why some of the smaller 4 and 6-driver models pulled well and others that looked just the same did not pull so well.

The photo below is of a 2026 which was easy to grab from the shelves just now. The cab floor is nearly 1/2 inch thick here. I have another 2026 shell with a slightly different casting where there is just a smooth lip and its mostly hollow under the cab. It weights about half a pound less.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

teledoc said:


> i want you to check two websites to increase you understanding of you new found hobby. Please check www.tandem-associates.com & www.olsentoys.com.
> 
> Another good site;
> 
> http://www.postwarlionel.com/


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

*S-2 turbine*

gustavo,

i want to let you know the 2020/671 is not a particularly large loco. yes they are heavy and good pullers. i think they will all run on 027.

as far as size, they do not compare to say a: 726/736 or 646/2046/2056 which all used a large boiler casting.

check out some of the websites we've listed and you'll get a good understanding of the different loco

lots to take in.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Well it seems I got a lot of reading ahead, amazing the amount of information and variations in one loco. Cole I will check this locos, I really want a larger one. 


Gustavo


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> I haven't had a 2020 for years. They are exceptionally good, at least some of them, like the one I had. They were among the bigger cast-metal locos and heavy, so I always assumed they ran well partly just because they were heavy.
> 
> From what I have seen and been told, Lionel made changes to body shell casings of its steamers throughout the pre- and post-war period. One of those reasons was that they added weight -- and didn't at other times - to several of its different steamers by varying how much metal wascast in, around, and particularly under the cab floor, making in solid - up to 1/2 inch thick in some models. They may have added weight in other places too by varying the thickness of the shell in other places, too, but I don't know that for sure. I don't know if this is why some 2020s pulled better than others, but it is why some of the smaller 4 and 6-driver models pulled well and others that looked just the same did not pull so well.
> 
> ...



Thanks Lee for the info, I will invest in books, it will be a good start.


Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gustavo, Yes you have some good reading to do, which will benefit in understanding what you to get the most of "O" gauge railroading. I would recommend trying to find a copy of "The standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1942-1969" by David Doyle. It is actually out of print, but if you can find a copy at a reasonable price, it will answer a lot of question. Besides listing all Postwar locos, it lists rolling stock, and it is hard to believe how many variations there are with different items. To the casual person, they all look the same, BUT certain items come in "Rare" variations.

The earlier comment about the differences of the 736, 2056, & 2020 doesn't sit right with me. Especially the 2056. I happen to own all 3, but I am not home at present. When I get back home, I will pull out my 736, and do a side by side comparison of weight, and dimensions, to compare them. I will post my results after I get time to do it. The 2056 is a good looking loco, and runs great, but I just can't put it in same category of the 2020-736 locos. The 2056 is an upgraded 2046, and both look alike.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Gustavo, Yes you have some good reading to do, which will benefit in understanding what you to get the most of "O" gauge railroading. I would recommend trying to find a copy of "The standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1942-1969" by David Doyle. It is actually out of print, but if you can find a copy at a reasonable price, it will answer a lot of question. Besides listing all Postwar locos, it lists rolling stock, and it is hard to believe how many variations there are with different items. To the casual person, they all look the same, BUT certain items come in "Rare" variations.
> 
> The earlier comment about the differences of the 736, 2056, & 2020 doesn't sit right with me. Especially the 2056. I happen to own all 3, but I am not home at present. When I get back home, I will pull out my 736, and do a side by side comparison of weight, and dimensions, to compare them. I will post my results after I get time to do it. The 2056 is a good looking loco, and runs great, but I just can't put it in same category of the 2020-736 locos. The 2056 is an upgraded 2046, and both look alike.




Both locos here:


1. Lionel 2056

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=2056



2. Lionel 736

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=736


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Yes, you found the one website we mentioned, and you can see the different locos. Although not every single one is shown, but 99.5% are listed. Just 1 or 2 are missing from their listings. Be sure to try and look at Olsen's Toy Trains website, and search the Library link, to see the diagrams, with part numbers of what you may be interested in.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Lesson 1 continued*

Gustavo, I didn't mention anything about smoke units, but the 1946 version is totally different from later smoke units, and the 1946 models (671-726-736-2020) locos used a smoke unit that required a special bulb, 12volt, with a special socket, (bulb 671-75), and the boiler front was 671-11, totally different from the succeeding versions of smoke unit. The introduction of smoke units, required smoke pills/pellets to produce smoke. The later versions eliminated the bulb, an were constructed differently. The later unit can also use smoke fluid, but don't start with pills, and then dump fluid into the smokestack, without totally re-jabbing the unit, clean out all the residue from the pills, install new batting, replace the heater element, and then you can run fluid. Whatever you start with, stay with it, but don't mix the two.

The later boiler front was 671-196.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Gustavo, I didn't mention anything about smoke units, but the 1946 version is totally different from later smoke units, and the 1946 models (671-726-736-2020) locos used a smoke unit that required a special bulb, 12volt, with a special socket, (bulb 671-75), and the boiler front was 671-11, totally different from the succeeding versions of smoke unit. The introduction of smoke units, required smoke pills/pellets to produce smoke. The later versions eliminated the bulb, an were constructed differently. The later unit can also use smoke fluid, but don't start with pills, and then dump fluid into the smokestack, without totally re-jabbing the unit, clean out all the residue from the pills, install new batting, replace the heater element, and then you can run fluid. Whatever you start with, stay with it, but don't mix the two.
> 
> The later boiler front was 671-196.


Wow Doc,

You have walked the learning path, there's a ton of information in just one model and its variations, it's incredible how a vintage toy carries this complex history!!



Gustavo


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And now for some perespective bottom to top. 2065, 671, 2036, 2026, 1666 , unknown, 1615. The 671 is identical to the 2020. It is one of the largest engines you can run on 027 track. It will slow in the curves. Rule of thumb is post war steam engines with a 4 digit number will run on 027 track. Prewar stuff is usually OK too since it is smaller. The 2065 is lighter then the 671. It is also a cow catcher length longer and a tad higher pictures to follow. I got to post on phone.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Yes, There are 5 variations of just the 671, which is identical to the 2020. The 2020 is just a number change on the body and just two versions, 1946 and the later 1947-52 version. Just subtle differences on the 2020. The 671 had the most versions sticking with the 671 number. The 1946 smoke bulb, plug socket, horizontal motor & E unit, then the slanted motor beginning in 1949. The 671RR, etc.. Changes over the years, and mostly indistinguishable from a quick glance, externally. Definitely a unique loco, compared to later numbered locos, that usually only have 2 versions. 

Keep searching and reading!!!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Pictures,


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sim, Good photo comparison, showing the difference. I don't own a 2065(665) loco but I mentioned in an earlier post, I will pull out my 736 and weigh the 736, 2020, & 2056, to see weight and overall dimension differences as a comparison. Bottom line on pulling power, is heavier locos, bigger motors, and above all, good maintenance with libe, oil, brushes, etc. if kept in tip-top shape, you can't kill a Postwar loco.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks, I realized when pulling stuff out that I have lots of stuff Im almost afraid to count what I purchased over the last few years. I need to reorganize my stuff.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Thanks, I realized when pulling stuff out that I have lots of stuff Im almost afraid to count what I purchased over the last few years. I need to reorganize my stuff.


Me too, I thought the 2020 looked familiar.
I went down in the dungeon and looked at my Steam locomotives and a 2020 is sitting there.

One of these years I have to do the same.hwell:

Now, I wonder if it runs?


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> Pictures,
> View attachment 69729
> 
> 
> ...


It's a huge loco, I'm want to get the oldest one and later a couple of variations. Astonishing loco... The way Lionel layout the engine is strange.








Picture from CS trains forum.

Gustavo


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hey Haggy If you want to try this.

To make the pictures show as a picture instead of a clickable link, it is real easy.
If you want it to show as a picture.

Go back on the above post and click edit, then click go advance, then go up top to the paper clip and click.
Then click insert all, they will all show up as a picture in your post now, instead of a link.

If you only had one picture you do all that and just click what shows. But more then one picture it will say insert all.

Every time after you upload a picture just go back and click on that paperclip, then click what is there. It is easy.
We only have 24 or 48 hours to edit a post.

Try it?
If you want to the above post.

By the way your picture quality and size is excellent.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

big ed said:


> Hey Haggy If you want to try this.
> 
> To make the pictures show as a picture instead of a clickable link, it is real easy.
> If you want it to show as a picture.
> ...



Thanks, a nice tip:appl:


Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That Gustavo is the classic 1946 model, but I detect some "Zinc Pest" on the smoke chamber.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Well, I made it home from the weekend, and pulled the trusty old 736 out of storage, to check the length of the 2020, 2056, & 736, plus see how much each weighed. Drumroll please as the results are:

A. 2020 weighs 4 lb.-12.8 oz. with a length of 11" (minus drawbar)
B. 2056 weighs 4 lb.- 9.1 oz. with length of 11 3/4"
C. 736 weighs 5 lb.-7.8 oz. with a length of 11 3/4"

So the heavyweight of this group is the 736. It gave me an excuse to pull the 736 out, and give it a thorough going over, as it hasn't been touched since I bought it 6 years ago. Only had a short test run, to make sure it worked, then packed in a box, until I could get the nerve to pull it apart, and check everything out. IT'S TIME!!


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Well, I made it home from the weekend, and pulled the trusty old 736 out of storage, to check the length of the 2020, 2056, & 736, plus see how much each weighed. Drumroll please as the results are:
> 
> A. 2020 weighs 4 lb.-12.8 oz. with a length of 11" (minus drawbar)
> B. 2056 weighs 4 lb.- 9.1 oz. with length of 11 3/4"
> ...




Doc,

I would like to see this train!!


Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*736 Loco*

Gustavo, Here are photos of my 736. I have to clean it up, internally, and put new brushes in the motor yet, and resolder the lamp lead that broke off when I opened the boiler front. I will get to that in next few weeks, as other projects are in the way. I did lighten up the photos some to eliminate shadows, and show better detail.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Gustavo, Here are photos of my 736. I have to clean it up, internally, and put new brushes in the motor yet, and resolder the lamp lead that broke off when I opened the boiler front. I will get to that in next few weeks, as other projects are in the way. I did lighten up the photos some to eliminate shadows, and show better detail.
> 
> View attachment 70041
> 
> ...


What a beautiful train, lots of details!!

Gustavo


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

*2020*

Gustavo,

some pics for u to compare some of these locos i had mentioned. i thought i seen in one of your previous post that you were interested in a large loco.:dunno:

anyway i still say the turbines, in my opinion, are not particularly large. or should i say they don't look so big as some. yes, they are bigger than the little prairie or scout locos as has been shown.
don't get me wrong, they are big and heavy and great pullers. but they are not as tall, not as wide and not as long as the bigger locos. I think fractions of an inch mean a lot in the overall size and appearance of these trains.

anyway here's some pics. you be the judge. anything else just ask

top 646- middle 2020/w2020 tender- bottom 736/w2046 tender All with correct style tenders. this cabinet is not wide enough to couple 646/736 to their tenders. all are bumped against the cabinet at cow catcher.









































the pic of 2020 along side of the 736 at station, the 2020 is on an elevated track and is still not as tall as the 736 as i say, here they are , u be the judge.
don't forget the 2025 and 675. great engines too!


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

while i'm shootin pics,
here's the 675 with coffin tender to compare. as big as the turbine?:dunno:
i don't have scale so can't weigh.

it's hard to beat a good 2025 or 675 in my opinion.
i've got a pair of these rigged so i can doublehead or use one as pusher. they pull 20+ cars no problem.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Excellent grunge on the 675.........


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Adding the tenders do make them longer. The 736 is probably out as I belive were talking 027 track. So, we've posted the biggest, heaviest and longest. Only thing now is to buy one of each! Or we can start posting bigger stuff. I do have some Alcos, train masters and such.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

the 646, 2046, etc with the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement use the 736 boiler casting. and they will run 027.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Were all good then. Just don't want him to do what I did. I bought a rig that was too big for my curves. I have the stuff to upgrade my layout but have not found the time. I was looking for the comparison picture I had in another thread. It's worth a laugh.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> Were all good then. Just don't want him to do what I did. I bought a rig that was too big for my curves. I have the stuff to upgrade my layout but have not found the time. I was looking for the comparison picture I had in another thread. It's worth a laugh.


ahh yes, been there done that. live and learn.

yea, the 2046-56 were sold as 027. so all is good. 

with the pics and websites he should get a good idea of what stuff looks like. hard to tell without something to compare it to. don't know if he has access to shows or LHS:dunno:


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

Thanks Guys, for sharing amazing pictures of your locomotives and technical information, I would say its going to be more easy for us beginners to start understanding the different types of locos and his variations.

Hope we can continue to unveil the secrets of more models in one thread for more easy way to get the information we need.



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Lesson #2 for turbines*

Gustavo, I waited a little while to go into the 671/2020 in more depth. I want to go into the difference from 1946 model and later issues, specifically the smoke units, and mainly the motors. All of the complete runs of the turbines 671 (all versions, "R" "RR". etc). the 681, 682, & the 2020 all share the same basic frame, and all the bodies share the same shell number 671-3, which can be seen with the shell off, and look inside top. The differences in the frames, and the bodies were reworking the body/frame for different tooling to accommodate the mount for the motor, adding magnatraction, adding linkage. They (Lionel) just modified the castings to suit a particular need, but all started out with the basic casting.

The three major differences of the 1946 version to the 1947-1952, were the motor and smoke unit, and the E-unit. The 1946 unit used the 2020M-1 motor, with a 2020M-30 brush plate, using a plug/socket arrangement to control direction, the E-unit was mounted horizontally, and had a smoke unit (#671-61 smoke box, 671-67 lamp lead, 703-10 smoke bulb, & 726-54 smoke box cover). This could only use smoke pellets/pill, and never smoke fluid.

The 1947-1952 versions changed the motor to slanted motor (671M-1), which had brush tubes, for a spring/brush assembly. The brush plate was #671M-5. The smoke unit was changed to a heater type of smoke unit, (671-170) which had a heating element with nichrome wire to melt the smoke pellets. This smoke unit was used on 671, 2020, 675, 2025, 2026, and 726 locos. 

The later turbines 681 & 682, still used the same body casting #671-3, but the body of the 682 had an additional stud casted onto the body, to accommodate the upgraded linkage, to make the 682 more appealing to the eye. The 681 added magnatraction, for better traction, and therefore the basic frame was again modified with a "well" for the magnet to rest in, below the smoke lever. The motor for the 681 & 682 was a similar motor to the slanted 671/2020 motor but had a different brush plate, (#681-105), which used different brushes, without the brush tubes, brush springs.

These motors, 671 or 681 can interchange the brush plates from one to the other, without any ill effect on performance, or running. Some items for sale, will be a 671 or 2020 that has a motor with a 681-105 brush plate installed, and if you want to be period correct, you would need to just get 671M-5 brush plate, and swap them out. The same is true with a 681 having a motor with the 671M-1 motor and 671M-5 brush plate. The brush plates from all the versions of these turbines are interchangeable, depending on the model/motor application that the individual loco has.

Some of the turbines have an added weight on the frame, and this was merely done by Lionel to improve traction. Not all frames have the threaded holes to mount the weight, but the manual says that you can drill/tap a 6-32 thread into the castiing to add the weight.

Below are photos (from Justtrains-Dew Associates) showing the three typical motors used in the various turbines. I added two different motors that belong to a 726 loco, and how closely they resemble the 2020M-1. They can't be used in the turbines, especially the last one, which is the 726M-1X "Gold Seal" motor. The 726 motor wasn't designed to be interchanged with the 671/681/2020 motors. The "Gold Seal" motor is some times referred to as the High Stack motor, and if you count the metal lamination between the motor casting, and the brush plate, there are more plates. Gold Seal has 24 laminations, vs. the other motors that have 15-16 laminations. The bigger 726M-1X provided more torque, which would make it a very strong puller. 









































END OF TODAYS LESSON - - - Gustavo, let it sink in.


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## haggy38 (Jul 18, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Gustavo, I waited a little while to go into the 671/2020 in more depth. I want to go into the difference from 1946 model and later issues, specifically the smoke units, and mainly the motors. All of the complete runs of the turbines 671 (all versions, "R" "RR". etc). the 681, 682, & the 2020 all share the same basic frame, and all the bodies share the same shell number 671-3, which can be seen with the shell off, and look inside top. The differences in the frames, and the bodies were reworking the body/frame for different tooling to accommodate the mount for the motor, adding magnatraction, adding linkage. They (Lionel) just modified the castings to suit a particular need, but all started out with the basic casting.
> 
> The three major differences of the 1946 version to the 1947-1952, were the motor and smoke unit, and the E-unit. The 1946 unit used the 2020M-1 motor, with a 2020M-30 brush plate, using a plug/socket arrangement to control direction, the E-unit was mounted horizontally, and had a smoke unit (#671-61 smoke box, 671-67 lamp lead, 703-10 smoke bulb, & 726-54 smoke box cover). This could only use smoke pellets/pill, and never smoke fluid.
> 
> ...



Great information Doc:appl:, thanks for sharing with us, re reading every post to gathering info!!



Gustavo


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*682 variance compared to 671 loco*

I decided to separate this from the last post I made, explaining the slight difference of the 682 turbine, compared to the earlier versions (671/681/2020). The three components on the 682 locomotive that was modified was adding a stud boss to the body casting, and the addition of a different set of linkage (Oiler linkage), to enhance the appearance, and possibly increase Lionel's sales. Below are photos showing the major difference in the body casting, and the oiler linkage, and the "STUD--NOT A SCREW!!!!!) to attach the added linkage. Many people think that the Hex head to hold the linkage to the body, is a screw, and inherently try to unscrew it with a nut driver, and breaking it off. The linkage is held in place by a special stud, that is pressed in. Also of note are many many rumors running around where some people are selling a 682, that was supposedly made from the 681 loco. To try and pass off a "forged 682" as a legitimate 682, using a 681 body. *Can't be done*, without careful inspection of the frame, and checking the added "stud boss" to the 681 body. The comparison photo tells the story. You just have to know what to look for, when buying. The side by side comparison photo was from an older posting, when someone asked about the 682 they owned, if it was a fake....(side by side comparison courtesy of member "Hudson")


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

teledoc said:


> Also of note are many many rumors running around where some people are selling a 682, that was supposedly made from the 681 loco. To try and pass off a "forged 682" as a legitimate 682, using a 681 body.


TRAIN ROBBERS:rippedhand:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!! Just having a certain amount of knowledge goes a long way. KNOWLEDGE IS "POWER".........
The more you know the less likely you are going to be duped into a bogus item.

Every 682 I see listed on eBay, I copy the photo to my computer that shows the underside of it, and when the photo is too dark, i edit the photo to see if the added boss is on the body. With knowing exactly what to look for, I haven't seen a "FAKED" 682 being offered in over a year. I take the idea of a fake 682 as nothing but urbane myth now. *It just can't be done, period!!!!*


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

NEVER SAY NEVER!

i swear some people would work harder to rip u off than to treat you fair.

it's a shame. most people are good but a few keep u leery.

good post teledoc. shows what to look for.:thumbsup:


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