# Lionel Ives 1501 and 1503 Prewar Windup Locos



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Eureka! I finally nabbed one! A Lionel Ives # 1501 windup loco, circa 1931 / 1932 (I think). I've been hunting for one of these for a while, but I've only seen one or two on ebay in several years. This tiny loco is rather similar to the 1015 / 1035 / 1506 "brothers" that I've described in this thread:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8279

However, this 1501 is slightly smaller in size. Further, it has two "sandpipes" on either side of the central dome (rather than one per the 1015, etc.), and it has a cab floor that extends aft of the cab itself.

Does anyone here have one of these, by chance ??? Or know anything more about the loco?

The pics below are as-found. I haven't cleaned or fiddled yet. This might be a fun TJ restoration project ... if the snow ever melts!

Cheers,

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Its a cute little guy!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

This is not it, but I thought maybe you would want to take a look.

http://www.grandoldtoys.com/toydb_D...kwork,wind-up,tin litho&Search.x=0&Search.y=0

I can't find much about the #1501.

You have a tender?


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

nice score on the IVES engine,

http://www.ivestrains.org/CD/O_Gauge/lionel31_32/locomotive/htmlfiles/clockwork.htm

It came in sets 1580,1581,1590,1591,1592 and 1593.










Pookybear


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Needless to say, you are auctioning off the matching cars to this engine right now are you not?

Pookybear


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

1915 Ives........$3000 to $4000? 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/199806A23.html


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ed, that was a mint set in your first link. A 1506L loco, like the one I have and shown in my Tale of Two Brothers thread.

Pook, yup my passenger cars are back on eBay. I offered them here, first, but had no interest from anyone. Current bid is around $36, with a week still to go.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*When It Rains, It Pours ...*

Well, this is crazy. After hunting for one of these little Lionel-Ives 1501 on ebay for years, I was delighted to finally nab one a month ago. They rarely turn up.

But I guess there are always exceptions to the rules. In the past couple of weeks, TWO more 1501 locos popped up on ebay. I grabbed them both, bringing the stable tally to three.

The second loco is a prior repaint. Mechanically it's in great shape ... windup mechanism work, AS DOES THE BELL! (The first 1501, above, didn't have a bell, and i wasn't even aware that they were offered with a bell.) The loco is missing a boiler front. However ...

The third loco is a bit beat up. The windup mechanism was cannibalized at some prior point, and the shell is squished here and there. It does have its boiler front, though, which I think I will swap over to Loco #2.

Locos #1 and #2 are going into the Strip Club today ... game plan is to do a full strip, repaint.

The windup mechanism on #1 is broken (broken spring, I think). I can only take out the windup motor when I disassemble the shell, which I haven't done yet. I'm hoping I might tinker with the mechanism and get it running, though I'm venturing into new territory with that wish list.

Anyway, I present my latest goodies ... 1501 #2 and 1501 #3.

TJ

*1501 #2*





























*1501 #3*


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Down at the Strip Club ...*

Time to toss away some more dollar bills. I'm addicted to the quick thrill, I guess ... 

I disassembled 1501 #1 and #2. (Still waiting for #3 to show up in the mail.) On each, the motor is held captive in the frame by left/right tabs on the motor sideplates that bend out over/above the loco frame. The only way to access these and remove the motor is by removing the boiler shell off the frame. I will also note that the boiler front on these locos is also captive in the frame. You have to remove the boiler shell from the frame to coax the boiler front free.

The rest of the disassemble was pretty straight forward ... gently coaxing various metal tabs. I used the rounded end of a door hinge pin to peen out some dents in the copper domes. One set of copper handrails is OK; some prior owner had broken off the interior bent ends of the other set, and epoxied them into place.

Now ... the windup motors ... here's where the real fun starts ...

When I first got #2, I was delighted to see that the windup mechanism worked just fine, including the ding-ding of a bell. But, when I remove the motor and gave it a stand-along test run, there was no bell sound. What??? How can that be? But then I realized that there's a little cog-bumps on the inside face of the big front gear. These don't hit/ping the bell itself, but rather, they hit a little flat metal spring plate that's crimped horizontally into the loco frame itself. As this spring plate recoils, it, in turn, whacks the bell to make the Ding sound. Clever. I've never seen this sort of setup before.

I knew that the windup spring on #2 wasn't working. When I pulled the motor out, I slowly uncoiled the spring steel to see what I was working with. Happily, the full spring coil is intact ... no breaks. Rather, it's come disengaged from a crimp pin that mounts it to the windup spindle on the root end of the coil. I haven't figured out how to remount this yet, exactly, but I'm hopeful I can implement some fix, and then rewind the coil spring.

*Most of these windup mechanisms have a "cup disc" of sorts against the flange of the left-front wheel. I still haven't figured out what function this performs. Does anyone know???*

Unfortunately, 1501 #2 is missing its zig-zag shaped start/go lever. This long Z metal bar is supposed to stick through a hole into the cab. Pushing it down engages a tooth on the other end into one of the small drive gears, essentially locking the loco in STOP mode. Lifting the bar up (in the cab) lowers the tooth, allowing the gears / loco to run free. *I've got to figure out how I might make (find?) one of these Z bars. Any ideas???*

Finally, I gave all of the shell pieces a foamy bath in heavy duty oven cleaner to strip away all of the old paint. I'll give them all a wire brush-down today, to remove traces of corrosion/rust.

Great fun!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> *Most of these windup mechanisms have a "cup disc" of sorts against the flange of the left-front wheel. I still haven't figured out what function this performs. Does anyone know???*


tj, I don't know much about these, could it be some sort of mechanical governor? :dunno:

Some of the early Marx windup motors featured a small grinding wheel with a flint that threw sparks out the stack. I don't know where these where located in the locomotive. I wonder if other manufacturers added these too? Or used the same parts for later models without the sparkler?


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

Big Ed is correct. It's the governor. The type you have is a wheel governor, which tends to be less effective than the type that is mounted inside the motor frame.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Nice find TJ. 

You are probably the right person to ask. I have a clockwork motor from a Marx engine and the end of the spring is busted. What method should I use to re-attach the spring to it's hub? Heat; bend it cold...?




















:dunno:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Heat will remove the temper from a section of the spring, cold is not going to do it.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Well I already knew that, it's why I asked. I figured somebody must have repaired this before.

I could always pin it. I don't know how well or long that will last. and they obviously bent the end of the spring after inserting it through the hub during manufacture. 









:stroke:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You guys must be clairvoyant. Good questions / ideas. As for me, I've never really fiddled with re-attaching / bending a spring like this before. I like the heat idea, prior to a new bend. (I guess you guys are saying if I try to create a new hook-bend cold, the spring will probably snap???) I'll likely try to re-pin my spring to it's spindle, but I'm not sure if a pin (alone) will work, or whether I should drill and tap for a little screw, with the screw head holding the spring. My spindle diameter is a lot smaller that Bob's Marx spindle, shown above.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Ohh ... Shiny!!!*

After a back-room rub-down at the Strip Club ...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I took advantage of the sunny weather today, and primed the shell components ... Krylon grey for those pieces that will be black, and Krylon Ruddy Brown for those that will be red.

(My slightly larger 1015/1035 loco is tossed into the mix here, too.)

TJ


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

Another option to trying to bend/salvage the old spring is to obtain a replacement from a clock supply vendor.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Help Me Understand How the Windup Gizmo Works, Please ...*

TJ's baffled. I hoping you guys can jump in with some help.

I've looked a bit more at the guts of my broken windup gizmo. I pulled out the big coil spring (shown above), and have since drilled and tapped a hole through the windup-spindle to reattach the spring at some point. However ...

I'm completely perplexed as to how winding this spring actually turns the big gear that rides on the spindle. Because ... the big gear is not actually attached to the spindle ... rather, it rides free. There must be some sort of a ratchet gizmo, but for the life of me, I can't understand how it works.

As shown in the photo below:

There's a large washer disc that has a tiny tooth near its center hole. I don't see anything attached to this tooth, though. Should there be???

On the other side of the big gear is a small spring wrapped several turns around the spindle. One end of the spring is attached to a tab on the gear face. That said, I think my small spring is broken somewhere along its wraps.

If I turn the spindle by hand (in either rotational direction), the big gear doesn't turn. How, then, would power from the wound coil spring be transferred to the gear, to make the loco go???

What function does the large washer disc perform ???

Any thoughts to clue me in would be much appreciated!!!

TJ


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Yukon Jack said:


> Another option to trying to bend/salvage the old spring is to obtain a replacement from a clock supply vendor.


Who might that be?

The other big question - Then what?

The original spring end passes completely through a slot in the hub and the short inner end that protrudes is then bent at 90 degrees to retain it.









hwell:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*What Does This Do ??? Governor ???*



Yukon Jack said:


> Big Ed is correct. It's the governor. The type you have is a wheel governor, which tends to be less effective than the type that is mounted inside the motor frame.


How is the "cup disc" attached to the frame a governor??? The wheel that spins adjacent to this has two small "nubs" on its inner face. The nubs spin around within the inside of the cup disc. But, they don't really do anything, do they???

Are you sure that's a governor, and not some Lionel carry-over from a ding-a-ling bell chime, or something like that???

TJ


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The cup is obviously stationary, does the flat wheel with the two protrusions spin with the axle (press fit) or just spin on the axle (freewheel).

I would think the second case (freewheel) would act as a governor or slow the mechanism just by the friction occurring while 'trying' to spin it. :stroke:


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

tjcruiser said:


> How is the "cup disc" attached to the frame a governor??? The wheel that spins adjacent to this has two small "nubs" on its inner face. The nubs spin around within the inside of the cup disc. But, they don't really do anything, do they???
> 
> Are you sure that's a governor, and not some Lionel carry-over from a ding-a-ling bell chime, or something like that???
> 
> ...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

rkenney said:


> The cup is obviously stationary, does the flat wheel with the two protrusions spin with the axle (press fit) or just spin on the axle (freewheel).
> 
> I would think the second case (freewheel) would act as a governor or slow the mechanism just by the friction occurring while 'trying' to spin it. :stroke:


The wheel with the two bumps is press-fit to the axle. The axle is the drive axle, driven by the windup mechanism and gearing.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Yukon Jack said:


> tjcruiser said:
> 
> 
> > How is the "cup disc" attached to the frame a governor??? The wheel that spins adjacent to this has two small "nubs" on its inner face. The nubs spin around within the inside of the cup disc. But, they don't really do anything, do they???
> ...


Hi Jack,

I'll take your thinking, albeit with a grain of salt. I appreciate your comment very much, but if it is an governor, I really don't understand how ... air friction? (not much!) ... maybe weight distribution, as in momentum of a flywheel? (though those nubs really don't add much flywheel weight).

It's a mystery still to be solved, in my opinion. And that's what makes this fun!!!

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

It was fabulous outside painting weather this weekend. Good progress on my pair of 1501's ...

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Hi Jack,
> 
> I'll take your thinking, albeit with a grain of salt. I appreciate your comment very much, but if it is an governor, I really don't understand how ... air friction? (not much!) ... maybe weight distribution, as in momentum of a flywheel? (though those nubs really don't add much flywheel weight).
> 
> ...


I found more reference to that being a governor but nothing on how it worked.
In all the references I found they all said it did not work that good and that is why they switched to another inside the engine.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Ed ... I appreciate the detective work. In thinking about it more, I suspect it was just an inertia flywheel effect ... like a figure skater varying spin speed with her arm position.


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

tjcruiser said:


> Thanks, Ed ... I appreciate the detective work. In thinking about it more, I suspect it was just an inertia flywheel effect ... like a figure skater varying spin speed with her arm position.


FWIW, the Marx version of the wheel governor did not work well either. Mostly the train launched off the track at the first curve. Marx suggested adding cars to slow it down. LOL


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

That's too funny, Jack! I got a good chuckle out of that ... though I know you're telling the truth. Thanks for the fun historical tidbit!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*1501 Number 4 ... well ... Number 3-1/2, really ...*

After years of hunting for 1501 locos in vein, fate has turned the tides, and these things are now falling out of the sky onto my doorstep. My latest acquisition is 1501 #4 ... well ... # 3-1/2, really. It's basically just half a loco, ebay-bought on the cheap. It's dented, rusted, mangled, but ...

*THE WINDUP MOTOR WORKS PERFECTLY!!!* :worshippy::worshippy::worshippy:

And, the motor has drive rods, too ... which makes me think this 1501 is really a *1503*.

I'm going to pull the motor out over the weekend, clean it up (rust, gunk), and install it in one of my other 1501s ... the one that had the broken windup mechanism. Parts is parts, as they say.

I like when things fall out of the sky!!!

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Another orphan finds a new home.....LOL


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Well Hello, Governor !!!


The "What are the two studs on the back of the windup wheel" mystery has been solved! Ed and Jack were right ... it's a ... GOVERNOR.

However, the two studs don't work alone. I mentioned above that my no-cab 1501 (or 1503 with drive rods) Loco #4 had a functional windup motor, which I dissected and cleanup up today. When I removed the drive wheel that mounts to the "cup" tabbed to the motor frame, I had a Eureka moment.

There are two crescent-shaped brake shoes inside the cup. Each shoe is mounted to a stud, and there's a little spring plate that pushes against each shoe to keep them pivoted inward, towards each other. However, when the loco is running, centrifugal force acts on the mass of each shoe, pivoting it outwards, such that the shoe outer edge rubs against the inside of the wheel cup. Essentially, it's an auto-governing drum brake setup. The faster the loco goes, the more the two drums want to pivot outward. But doing so causes friction, which slows the loco down. Etc.

Quite a clever little design ... even if legend has it that it didn't work so well.

TJ


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

Great pics tj! Very instructive. :appl:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Nice detective work TJ, will the 1681 side rods work on this addition? If they will, the set I just got are yours, so I can order the right ones for my 1688E. It's looking good so far,.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Jack ... I thought you'd like meeting the Governor!

And thanks, Doc ... PM sent ... much appreciated!

A little assembly line work this evening ...

My pair of 1501's, along with a 1015/1035 joining in the fun.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Wind Up Motor Comparison*

The windup motors in these little 1501/1503 locos are installed with little tabs on the motor frame that bend out to lock the motor in position in the frame. Once the loco boiler shell is installed on the loco frame, the motor is captive ... there's no easy way to get it out.

That said, I thought I'd do a little photo study of two somewhat different motors that I've found for these locos.

Background info ...

As far as I know, the 1501 and 1503 were near-identical locos. The 1501 did not have drive rods, and the 1503 did have drive rods. Both were produced by Lionel/Ives circa 1931 and 1932.

The no-cab loco (#4) that I bought as a junker on ebay had a functional windup motor, which I was able to cleaned up nicely. This motor has drive rods that mount via nail-brads into studs cast into the rear wheels. I believe this motor is representative of a true 1503 loco, and that's what I'm building/restoring as my #1 loco. The windup key threads/screws into a hub on the left side of the motor.

However, my #2 loco (bought on ebay) came with a windup motor that had a bell mechanism, and no drive rods. I'm not sure if this is/was original to a 1501. I suspect not, though it is possible that Lionel/Ives offered the loco in two versions ... without bell, and with bell.

Though the bell-version motor is similar to the standard (no bell) version (they share the same motor sideplates), the windup key is not the same. The bell-version motor uses a standard Lionel/Ives prewar key that has a square socket. It fits over a square hub on the left side of the motor.

I'd be curious if anyone recognizes this bell-version motor from any other Lionel/Ives loco. It's possible that a prior owner swapped it into my 1501 shell, borrowed from some other loco.

With that, here's a little photo study of the two different motors.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Well, duhh !!! ...*



tjcruiser said:


> However, my #2 loco (bought on ebay) came with a windup motor that had a bell mechanism, and no drive rods. I'm not sure if this is/was original to a 1501. I suspect not, though it is possible that Lionel/Ives offered the loco in two versions ... without bell, and with bell.
> 
> Though the bell-version motor is similar to the standard (no bell) version (they share the same motor sideplates), the windup key is not the same. The bell-version motor uses a standard Lionel/Ives prewar key that has a square socket. It fits over a square hub on the left side of the motor.


I'm an idiot. I've been thinking that the bell-version wind up motor might not have been original to the 1501. But, DUHH ... it finally dawned on me. The motor MUST be original to this particular 1501. The bell works by chiming a little clapper spring-plate that is press fit into two slots die cut into the original the loco frame. If Lionel / Ives installed that clapper spring with the original production, then this loco clearly had a bell from day one.

And ...

My other 1501 locos (sitting on my bench yet unrestored) have frames that DON'T have the clapper spring plate installed (and no mount slots for it). So, we can conclude:

*The 1501 loco must have been built / offered in two versions: with bell and without bell.*

History reveals itself. I love this stuff!

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Restoration Resurrection ...*

I assembled all the bits and pieces on my 1501 and 1503 restoration projects. 1501 with bell, no drive rods, square-socket key (brass color). 1503 with drive rods, screw-in key, no bell.

Not too shabby!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

They came out great.......twins. :smilie_daumenpos:

I quickly read through the thread I might have missed something, does the governor work now?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When I first saw the pictures of the governor without weights, I was thinking it must be a flyweight governor. When I was a kid in the '50s, we had a wind-up victrola that had a flyweight governor on it very similar to the one on your loco. Unfortunately, the spring in the victrola broke and it was junked. If the governor doesn't work very well, you might want to add some friction material to the outside of the weights. Metal to metal may not work very well.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think this "new" governor (with the weights/shoes) works just fine.

Our problem was that the FIRST governor gizmo that I opened up was MISSING the weights/shoes, so we had no real idea what we were looking at and how it actually worked.

But my latest motor (from loco #4) was intact ... rusted, but fully functional ... and that's when I "discovered" the internal weights/shoes. And it all made sense from there!

Cheers,

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj, glad to see the enigma wrapped in a riddle was figured out. Those wind ups are nice. But I did warn you to give me the first one so you didn't become addicted. Too late now, enjoy!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

sjm9911 said:


> Tj, glad to see the enigma wrapped in a riddle was figured out.


Hee hee! There was a spider living in one of these old windup loco shells. I think he knew the secrets of the mystery all along!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*The Governor was Patented!*

Earlier in this thread I talked about the "wheel governor" used on this style of windup motor.

There's more to the story ...

Jerry "Teledoc" was poking around the US Patent website and found a 1931 patent drawing (and submission) for the wheel governor used on the windup motor. See this link:

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=...=in/bonanno-joseph-l%26RS=IN/bonanno-joseph-l

Google reference link here:

http://www.google.com/patents/US1958884

The design is attributed to Joseph Bonanno, who was Lionel's Chief Engineer.

Fabulous find, Jerry ... Thanks!!!

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Cool always fun to see that stuff.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Way back when, I was on a mad hunt for the elusive little windup Lionel/Ives 1501 / 1503 loco. Eventually, they started falling out of the sky onto my doorstep, in bashed and dinged condition. I restored two (shown earlier in this thread), and then had enough pieces of #3 and #4 to eventually put together one more shell for the restoration shelf.

And so, it became a tail end of summer project. Here's the results, before and after. Not too shabby. The windup motor is just an empty frame at this point (broken spring, guts), but for a shelf display, the loco will do just fine, I think.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Nice. It looks good. It is nice to see an old loco up and running in good condition.


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## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

Great job !!!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nice job as normal. :thumbsup:

I wonder if one can get parts to fix these windup motors?
I see a lot all with broken motors and it is mainly the spring broken or rusted tight.
Can't be too hard to rewind a spring back in if they sell the proper piece of metal? You ever try?

A lot of the old Lionel boats #43 & #44 need the windup motor repair too.
There are a lot of other toys that used a windup motor too.


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## papa3rail (Oct 8, 2016)

Beautiful restoration:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, guys ... much appreciated.

Hey, Ed. Good questions about repair on the windup motor mechanisms. I suspect that the springs can be rewound, and the full motors rebuilt, but I have never actually tried to tackle that ... yet. The motor side-cheeks are typically riveted / peened to crossbars, so disassembly (for access to the spring, gears) is tricky.

That said, I know that there are dedicated repair shops that offer full rehab options on windup motor repair. Glad they are doing that.

But as for me ... I haven't yet attempted to be so bold. Some day. In fact, there's an uncoiled spring (from this very motor) sitting on my bench!

Any tips to offer?

Cheers,

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice tj, the black and red is a classic. Nice to see it up and running again!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Nice tj, the black and red is a classic. Nice to see it up and running again!


Hi sjm9911, did you read the post?
It is up but not running. 

No motor, just a shelf queen for now.

Hope all is well Buddy.:smokin:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ha! I like to think that it's "up and running" in slow motion. VERY slow motion! As Ed says, a non-functional wind-up motor at this point.

Nonetheless, it does look great on my display shelf!

Thanks, SJM, for the kind words!

TJ


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