# Whistle Bell question



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I did some searching and see how to use two buttons to get both to work ( one at a time ) but was wondering, has anyone made their own buttons? I assume it has to do with a rectifying diode or something similar, but have nothing to go from.
The reason I ask, I have an older 175 Watt transformer that I retrieved from storage, it does 0 to 18.5 Volts, does have an accessory power terminal. but being older it doesnt have a Bell or Whistle button. I can sure tell the difference between it and the CW-80 that I have been using and also have looked at the price of ZW transformers etc and believe that this one could suit my needs. It has a circuit breaker that works great, if one wheel isnt on the track properly the breaker trips, I then push the button ant it resets. The trans former is from our families old Christmas tree set, American Flyer, and is a 22035 transformer. I could be wrong but I think I have a decent transformer here. Opinions welcomed.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

In "Lionel O format", a whisle (or bell) controller activates the whistle (or bell) relay switch with a DC power signal that's superimposed on top of the standard AC track power. Once the DC signal turns the relay switch on (within the whistle tender, for instance), then the remaining AC power is used to actual drive the whistle motor.

The process is the same for a bell, except that the sign (+ or -) of the DC signal is reversed.

This thread has a nice more-detailed technical discussion on how the controllers work:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5473

Here's the very-detailed Lionel tech manual descriptions ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=705

And, Gunrunnerjohn posted a nice description on how to make your own controller using modern diodes ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7337

If you don't want to make your own, you can buy an old (but functional) Lionel whistle controller pretty cheaply. I picked up an old #167 for under $20 some months back.

Regards,

TJ


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

That 167 is interesting, I wonder if one could take two, and rework one so that the reverse button ends up being a Bell button. then the Whistle and bell button would be in one unit. I dont need the reverse button. I will try to get several and do some experimenting.,
On a side note, I can not believe how much a difference a larger transformer makes, the E units that hum so badly are suddenly quiet and especially the older Locomotives run so much smother.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The whistle controller is easy to build, and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing how it's done when you finish. 

All it takes is a bunch of 6A silicon diodes, and a pair of SPST pushbuttons. I used some I had in the junkbox, as you can see, I didn't use most of the connections on the buttons, but they were free.

This is the schematic for the box, I didn't bother with the TVS, it's optional. For conventional operation, it's probably not needed. I used one less diode, I was lazy and they fit better this way. It works fine, the decision of how many diodes is somewhat arbitrary, I found that mine works well with PW and modern whistles and bells.












The top is simple, a bell button, a whistle button, and connections in and out.












Here's the interior wiring, as you can see the push buttons just short all but one of the diode strings in one direction. This creates the DC bias that activates the horn or bell, depending on the polarity of the DC.


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Now that is a cool device, I will eventually do one like that. for more immediate and less expensive for me, I have a half dozen 167 whistle controllers coming. I plan on raiding one to move the rectifier part into another where the direction button is and make it a all in one unit Whistle and Bell switch. Much like yours but in the case that has a big L on the cover. Experimenting is fun.
So far the bigger transformer is a winner.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, this one cost me about $3, maybe $10 if I had to buy all the parts, so _expensive _isn't how I'd describe it.


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I have no parts laying about, I priced things on Ebay and to roll my own it would cost more than I paid for the 167s. I bet yours works better too.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, eBay is not the best place to buy these parts. It would cost a fraction of that buying them from Mouser or Digikey. They have very good prices and the shipping on small parts is typically a couple of bucks. You can also buy only the quantities you need.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I wouldn't run 167's with modern electronics. I would save it for the old relays.

John, I am happy you made one. I have collected the info on how to do it but never did. Bravo! :appl:


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I believe the 167 consists of a bridge rectifier.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

jreid said:


> I believe the 167 consists of a bridge rectifier.


As in one via modern diodes? I didn't think that was the case with the 167. I thought those had an old-fashioned copper oxide rectifier disc ... ???

(Or is that techically a bridge, too ???)

TJ


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I have a dozen coming so I guess that I will know more soon, if nothing else the enclosure and buttons will work, but there is a chance that there is a useable piece there.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There's actually quite a bit more in the #167, here's the Olsen's page on it: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=705


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> I wouldn't run 167's with modern electronics. I would save it for the old relays.
> 
> John, I am happy you made one. I have collected the info on how to do it but never did. Bravo! :appl:


I just thought I would be handy to have. I actually gave it away, but the guy recently gave it back, said he didn't need it anymore, he bought a modern transformer with both controls.


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

It looks like the contents are mostly to do with the Whistle controller and that the reverse is just opening and closing some contacts. From what I see, it would take two 167s to do both Whistle and bell. Simple, but everything is big, good old fashioned Electrical not Electronic ( he says with a big grin ) Just like the transformer I am using, old school electrical equipment, 1950s and 60s technology. Tell me if I am wrong but I believe that the CW-80 transformer is switching and the old pancake transformer is linear.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Correct, the reverse switch just breaks the circuit, the same as any PW transformer.

As I understand the #167, the inductor provides a boost in voltage to emulate a PW transformer's boost for the whistle.


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

A sticky button would be bad, but I bet it would do no harm if not overused. I am just starting out in O and the funds are super limited, like nonexistent, so I am trying to do things on the cheap. I only have one real modern Locomotive ant it isnt DCC or anything like that, it just has a solid state horn and bell board. Another two have the circuit board E unit, but from what I can tell they are robust too. All of the old Marx and the earlier Lionels were probably designed with the 167 in mind.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, they'll actually work as well or better with the box I made, and of course it does both jobs. Putting two of the #167 boxes in series to get both functions will introduce a pretty large voltage drop for a locomotive that has much current draw.

I read the description, and actually the #167 drops voltage similar to the diode box, I thought that inductor was some kind of auto-transformer, but it's not.

I'm guessing all the parts for this circuit would be no more than $12-15 if you shop carefully.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I read the description, and actually the #167 drops voltage ...


Yes, John, that right ...

The 167 has a "shunt" that actually _drops_ AC power going to the track under normal operation while the whistle is not being blown. The power loss is dissapated via a heat sink.

When the whistle button is activated, a portion of the incoming AC power is converted to DC, and the shunt is then bypassed.

The net_ intended _result of this is that the train's AC motor sees the same net AC power and will run at the same speed, regardless of whether a whistle is being blown or not.

I will also point out that the 167 has a two-stepped DC signal ... the unit kicks out about 3V DC when the button is initially pushed, and then about 1.5V DC thereafter while the button is being held. The higher DC activates the whistle's relay, and the lower DC holds the relay switch in place.

TJ


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

It looks to me that the people who designed it had a lot in mind when they made the 167. I have noticed that with the CW-80 when I press the whistle button the train slows down considerably. It might be that I end up not using the 167 for long, but it does bring for the some interesting features that were not realized at first


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the whistle control I posted has the same kind of effect as the #167, just in a slightly different manner. The voltage drop is always there, when you shunt the diodes, you get the DC offset and the AC component remains the same. For older PW trains, the whistle motor will run on AC or DC, so the added DC voltage component makes up for the current drawn by the whistle and keeps the train speed more constant.

The thing about the old PW transformers (and the #167 control) is that they don't 100% reliably trigger modern electronic whistles/bells at times, depending on the current draw of the locomotive and other current draw on the transformer. The diode box puts out a larger DC bias for any current draw and more reliably triggers the modern whistle/bell.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The CW-80 is designed to operate electronic whistles and bells which draw very little power. Therefore the CW-80 does not boost the voltage when the whistle button is pressed. If you use the CW-80 with a tender with a whistle motor, you will get a drop in the speed of the train as the power is shared between the loco and the whistle motor. Similarly, if you use a PW transformer with a whistle control to drive a loco and tender with an electronic whistle, the train will speed up when you press the whistle button. 

It looks like the coil in the 167 is there to reduce the voltage to the train when the whistle button is not operated. It would have a voltage drop due to its resistance of I*R and another voltage drop due to its inductance of I*L*2*pi*60. The two voltage drops are in quadrature and don't add directly but add as the square root of the sum of the squares. 

Bruce


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Probably TMI, but thanks.  The coil apparently is there to reduce the voltage when the whistle is not being operated.

I think the only reason that they didn't do it with the diodes is when that control was designed, those diodes didn't exist, or were so expensive that it was not an option.


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

A progress report, the 167 does fine for the whistle but even if I do the reverse hook up in series the bell doesnt get triggered by the 167. It was a great experiment and I learned something too.
My current plan is to get the diodes, I have the momentary switches in my junk drawer, and I intend to use one of my 167s as a project box. In other words I will strip the innards from a 167, replace the buttons with real switches, drill two holes for two more feedthroughs, cover the metal bottom with plastic for insulation and instal the diodes inside the 167. The end result will hopefully be a functioning Whistle and bell switch combo in a cool looking enclosure with the big L on it. Wish me luck. It might take me a week or two to get the diodes but the project is in the planning stages.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, it works for me here. 

Here's a 6A diode for .41/ea, shipping is very reasonable, for a dozen of these, you'll probably pay less than $3. Total price will be less than $8 for a dozen, and you're all set.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=6A05DICT-ND


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Here is the start
an unmodified 167








the insides were removed and I installed two momentary switches where the buttons were








What it looks like now









I examined the schematic that gunrunner gave us and decided that the one wire really doesnt need to pass through the controller, thus avoiding drilling holes etc. There is plenty of room inside the 167 shell to hold the diodes and when finished it will look like a Lionel accessory. A stealth mod
IT will be a short while before I get the diodes so the 167 project goes on the shelf for a short time but I see no reason why it will not work..


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Very cool project. I really like that you're building this inside an original Lionel 167 shell. New meets old. Very nice!

For reference to others, can you please post what model / part numbers you chose for the momentary buttons? Radio Shack #___, etc. Did you have to enlarge the original button holes, or was it a clean drop-fit?

Thanks,

TJ


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Gosh, the switches were in the junk drawer, switch C&K 8168, I t5hitnk Mouser sells them. I have a half dozen or so and make use of what I have on hand. The switches are in fact a bit small so I used some #4 washers to allow them to not fall through. The original button holes were almost too big in other words. In fact I believe that the switches in gunrunnerjohns photo look to be the same ones.
Now for hte daily walk to the mailbox to see when the diodes arrive


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I think you could rework the original switches and reuse them. You only need a normally open contact. I haven't had a 167 apart for a while, but I think the switches are made up of flat springs with fiber spacers held together with screws just like the UCS controllers.
BB


----------



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

One could, but to be honest I bought several 167s and chose the worst ones to cannibalize, the ones that actually work will go back on Ebay to recoup my expenditure. This one was so worn that it really would have been a pain to mess with them. I also believe that I am gong to be blessed with many more years of reliable service out of it with the newer switches. The new switches will definitely perform better.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It's a great plan using the 167 box. Keep it up!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm wondering why you couldn't just use the existing pushbuttons on the 167, was there a reason for replacing them?


----------



## ChopperCharles (Jan 3, 2012)

Is there an actual button that lionel makes that replicates the CW80 functions? I'd rather not purchase a new transformer...

Charles.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lionel makes one, but from the reports I get it's pretty lame.

You can roll your own pretty easily. It takes a handful of diodes, a couple of switches, and a utility box. Here's one I slapped together to see how well it works, and it worked fine.  The switches actually only have to be SPST NO, but those were what the junkbox yielded.


----------



## ChopperCharles (Jan 3, 2012)

Yeah, I read about that in another post, but I was hoping for something using modern electronics that I can just purchase. I see a single bell button on eBay, which is supposed to be used with transformers taht have only a horn button I assume... I'm guessing two of those wired in series would do the trick. But they appear to not exactly be common items. Ah well, I'll see waht I can find at the train show this weekend.

Charles.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You're going to build a SOS board, but you don't want to cobble together this simple switch box?


----------



## ChopperCharles (Jan 3, 2012)

If it's all tossed inside a tender, nobody can see it, and I have most of those parts already. But for the whistle/bell, I want something nice to mount next to my transformer, with printing on it so it's obviously a whistle or bell button. 

Charles.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Charles, they make a horn whistle button 8251-50, we have had this question before. Used they sell for 12. The CW- 80 is modern and has one built in. Search ebay for the button. At this point if I make one I would use an old boxcar shell.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

ChopperCharles said:


> I want something nice to mount next to my transformer, with printing on it so it's obviously a whistle or bell button.


Cut and paste ...

*WHISTLE BUTTON*

*BELL BUTTON*

Right?


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The button info is a mess. So Thank you for asking !!!!!!!
I tagged a few threads with "button". They will now show up on a tag search. The best part is this link instruction to lionel on the current button. The 5906.

For a time the tenders got complicated and required two sounds so two buttons were needed each a reversed DC curent. So you got buttons, make a button and transformer button, they all work. I would not use an old whistle controllers with a disc and no diodes. They are too old and subject to failure.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

With the addition of TJ suggested text, I think my little box is more than satisfactory.


----------



## ChopperCharles (Jan 3, 2012)

Cool, that's exactly what i needed - the part number for the modern button. Now I know what to look for at the train show this sunday! 

Charles.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Find a junk box and look for the tender with all the vent holes in the coal pile and it will be a sound of steam tender. I never got mine on the rails so I am interested in the reed relay trick. Good Luck at the show!!!!!!!

Bob


----------



## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

Man, this forum is too much fun. Even tho' I consider myself a math failure, Gunrunnerjohn makes a great case for building my own whistle/bell controller. I could use a CW 80 - one is close by if I really wanted it - but then, I doubt that 80 watts is even close to sufficient to run the outside loop on my 24x5 foot layout, even without the draw of accessories, etc. I'll just have to get over my fear of basic electronics and get to work on John's box...the word "diode" makes me feel like I'm entering an alternate universe, but really, it's all about the fear of tinker-failure my old man put into me as a youngster - that's what I have to overcome...


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Just follow the pictures, piece of cake.  All you really need are SPST pushbuttons, the extra contacts on the ones I used are because that's what was in the junkbox.


----------



## Wowak (May 30, 2012)

ChopperCharles said:


> I want something nice to mount next to my transformer, with printing on it so it's obviously a whistle or bell button.
> .


They make these wonderful things called dry-transfer letters.


----------

