# Using a foam incline.. what subroad?



## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

Hi All
I am getting to the point where I will be installing a couple inclines. I have decided on the Woodland Scenic foam inclines. Once I glue that down what do I use as a sub road, under my cork roadbed? 

I had previously used plywood and that gave me a nice surface to nail to.. wonderful. 

Do I get some 1/2 foam and cut it to match the incline?
Do I hydrocal some paper towels and nail to that?

Should I nail or use glue? I would prefer to nail but cant imagine that foam would give enough of a surface to get a good foothold for the nail.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Nope, you're right. Trying to nail into foam is an exercise in frustration. Likewise hardshell materials, including hydrocal and paper towels.

I'm not a fan of nails in general. Too easy to ding things, too easy to insert too far and bow your ties, thus ruining your gauge.

I use gray adhesive latex caulk to fasten things down. Run a bead down the center and spread it very thin with a putty knife or one of those fake credit cards you get in the mail.
That will hold both your roadbed to the risers and the track to your roadbed. The foam is strong enough to support your track, without any additional subroadbed.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

I did what CTValleyRR suggested and it worked out fine. No nails.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

so when glueing track.. I get that it is very thin.. but what about when you want to tear up some track and redo portions.. does the glue damage the track for future use. I am not concerned about resale value, but rather taking up track and re purposing it for other layouts. That is my only concern with blueing. 

Thanks again for the information.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

No problem taking up track if you do as CTValleyRR suggests. Also if you use white school glue all you need do is soak it with water and your track will come up. One of the members posted recently doing just that.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

Now you guys have me thinking that I should pull up my helix track that I nailed down and glue it back on (NOT a fun task). 

I have a few bent ties when I nailed them down. I was careful, but a couple are not perfect. I will have to go over them with my NMRA gauge and see if I need to do that.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You would likely do more damage pulling the nails.
If it is working, then let a sleeping do lie. But put that
box of nails as far from the train room as you can.

There is not one nail in my room size HO layout bench
work. It is all screwed or bolted together and glue
(use very little) hold the tracks in place.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Yeah, I agree with Don. If it works, and it's trouble free to your standards, don't mess with it.

As jlc41 says, with my method (well, the one I use -- I sure didn't invent it) track comes up pretty well. I salvaged all of the track off of my previous layout by soaking it with rubbing alcohol, waiting 5 minutes, and prying it up with a putty knife. The roadbed usually doesn't live to fight another day, but the track isn't an issue.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> As jlc41 says, with my method (well, the one I use -- I sure didn't invent it) track comes up pretty well. I salvaged all of the track off of my previous layout by soaking it with rubbing alcohol, waiting 5 minutes, and prying it up with a putty knife. The roadbed usually doesn't live to fight another day, but the track isn't an issue.


If you use white glue that jlc41 suggested, you can usually salvage the cork roadbed as well. But white glue is not as strong as caulk. And if you later ballast your tracks with a white glue mixture, your tracks might come loose.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> And if you later ballast your tracks with a white glue mixture, your tracks might come loose.


Really? I was under the impression that a white glue mixture was fine when ballasting? Could you detail this a little more? And what would you recommend as an alternative?


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## MikeB (Feb 11, 2016)

How does the latex caulk work with flex track going around a curve? I'm assuming that one would have to place a weight on it until the caulk dries.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Overkast said:


> Really? I was under the impression that a white glue mixture was fine when ballasting? Could you detail this a little more? And what would you recommend as an alternative?


White glue mix is commonly used for ballasting, and usually works fine. I was saying that IF you use white glue to glue down your track, the watery glue mixture that you put on the ballast might loosen up the glue that was holding the track down. If you use caulk (or nails or screws) for to attaching your track, diluted white glue will work fine for ballasting.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> White glue mix is commonly used for ballasting, and usually works fine. I was saying that IF you use white glue to glue down your track, the watery glue mixture that you put on the ballast might loosen up the glue that was holding the track down. If you use caulk (or nails or screws) for to attaching your track, diluted white glue will work fine for ballasting.


Thanks for clarifying. Good detail to think about, as I'm going to face this very issue in the near future.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MikeB said:


> How does the latex caulk work with flex track going around a curve? I'm assuming that one would have to place a weight on it until the caulk dries.


Well, I use MicroEngineering track, which doesn't spring back after you curve it (some people consider this a drawback), so that's not an issue.

However, when I did this using Atlas flextrack, I used a couple of track nails to maintain the curve, and weighted it down with canned goods (smaller cans fit nicely between the rails of HO track). For tangent track, I just put a piece of scrap wood weighted with a paver on top.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

I was thinking of maybe nailing the flex track, but leaving the nail head up a bit. Then once the glue dries pulling the nail out.. that oughta work.


On an unrelated note I just picked up the last two pieces required for my layout. I needed two double turnout/crossover sections. And holy bejesus are THOSE expensive..especially after you add the FOUR tournout machines to each one. I got a great deal on two used pieces by a company I had not heard much of (Roco). For $100 I got the two crossover sections and 8 tournout motors. They look to have insulated frogs so they should be good for DCC. 

Do you guys put your cork right on the foam, then decorate it.. or do you put a layer of hydrocal (or similar) paper towels.. then paint and decorate it?

From what I have seen you can just plop your buildings and roads and cork sub road right on the foam and then decorate around that. That is what I plan on doing but thought I would see what others do.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

when i did mine, i caulked the track direct to foam, long pushpins and weights to hold it down for about 12 hours, no sub road bed .. only three years now, but seems to be okay yet ..where I had notches in the side of the curves i just used slivers of foam to fill in ..


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

pat_smith1969 said:


> Do you guys put your cork right on the foam, then decorate it.. or do you put a layer of hydrocal (or similar) paper towels.. then paint and decorate it?
> 
> From what I have seen you can just plop your buildings and roads and cork sub road right on the foam and then decorate around that. That is what I plan on doing but thought I would see what others do.


Anything under the roadbed has the potential to wrinkle and cause unwanted bumps. My roadbed goes right on the foam. The rest of the foam is covered with a thin layer of Sculptamold to eliminate the "flatness" of the foam. Anywhere a structure is going to go, I press a template of styrene or cardboard into the Sculptamold to make a flat impression where the finished structure will be. I paint this with brown interior latex paint, then add scenery.

Since Sculptamold is somewhat lumpy, it's great for ground, not so good for roads, etc. For those I use drywall compound smoothed with a putty knife.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Canned goods, boxes of broth, lots of stuff works great. Someone on the forum is a great fan of thousand island dressing so that's what he uses to hold down the track.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Lemonhawk said:


> Someone on the forum is a great fan of thousand island dressing so that's what he uses to hold done the track.


LOL!!! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

As I'm pulling these hundreds of nails out of this MDF for my "redo" I'm thinking some kind of adhesive is going to be the way to go! LOL!


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

That sucks chip. What happened?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

Overkast said:


> That sucks chip. What happened?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


LOL! Actually it's part of my long term "no plan" plan! I was/ am a TOTAL NEWB and I knew I needed to "play" with the stuff for a while before the "FINAL" layout design would take shape in my misshapen head. Nailing just track with no roadbed was a good way to go because the entire thing can be changed relatively quickly, cleanly and easily. I kept adding and adding and ADDING more track and trying different things all on the wide open flat spaces. Now I'm satisfied that phase is over and on to the next, GLUE and INCLINES will make it an entirely "new" layout!


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

Hey Chip
I am also a fellow NEWB. I let my son loose on just a flat piece of 4x8 plywood with the EZ track. He came up with a good general design.. I then went to work in SCARM and ran through all the possible permutations... decided on a 5x9 layout to accommodate the 22 inch turns. Made a few necessary adjustments to make the track "work".

That saved a LOT of trail and error with laying the good Atlas track. I now know I have the best possible layout based off my son's initial design (possibly the best layout EVER!!!!). Your way sounds like a lot of fun though.

We are currently in the "build" stage and I finally got all the inclines, decines, and switches all figured out.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

Also,
I have used a lot of the WS foam inclines. I have decided to put a layer of plaster casting on them before I lay the roadbed. I know a lot of people do not put a layer down under the roadbed but I just don't want to plaster around the cork and track... I don't trust myself from getting plaster in all the wrong places.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

pat_smith1969 said:


> Also,
> I have used a lot of the WS foam inclines. I have decided to put a layer of plaster casting on them before I lay the roadbed. I know a lot of people do not put a layer down under the roadbed but I just don't want to plaster around the cork and track... I don't trust myself from getting plaster in all the wrong places.


There are very few absolute rights and wrongs in this hobby. I have my reasons for not putting anything between my inclines and roadbed, but that 's a personal thing. Just work very hard to keep things as smooth as possible under your rails.

BTW, it's a good idea to put a strip of blue painters tape on your rails while working near them with something messy. Like plaster.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Just work very hard to keep things as smooth as possible under your rails.


Sound advice CTValleyRR... The transition from incline to flat ground is especially critical to get right to avoid derailments.

Chip and/or Pat... I have some extra 3% grade WS incline I'm not using if you're interested, I'd be happy to send your way.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

Overkast said:


> Sound advice CTValleyRR... The transition from incline to flat ground is especially critical to get right to avoid derailments.
> 
> Chip and/or Pat... I have some extra 3% grade WS incline I'm not using if you're interested, I'd be happy to send your way.
> 
> ...


THANX but in my usual overkill manner I got two boxes of each, 2%, 3%, 4%. Should be enough. I appreciate it though.


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

pat_smith1969 said:


> Hey Chip
> I am also a fellow NEWB. I let my son loose on just a flat piece of 4x8 plywood with the EZ track. He came up with a good general design.. I then went to work in SCARM and ran through all the possible permutations... decided on a 5x9 layout to accommodate the 22 inch turns. Made a few necessary adjustments to make the track "work".
> 
> That saved a LOT of trail and error with laying the good Atlas track. I now know I have the best possible layout based off my son's initial design (possibly the best layout EVER!!!!). Your way sounds like a lot of fun though.
> ...


That is an excellent "timeline" for layout construction. I always seem to do things a little differently than most folks and I really had no "plan" other than to "play with trains" hence the TOO big flat table type construction. I've had two VERY different set ups of track so far and am excited for the third!


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

I miscalculated how many inclines come in a box of the starter inclines.. I bought one box for each starter incline I needed.. I didn't read that 7 or 8 come in a box.. so I have a TON of extra inclines. I figure I will save them for when I expand the layout. 

I can tell you that hot glue does NOT stick to slightly damp plaster covered with "mostly" dried WS sub-grass paint.


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

pat_smith1969 said:


> I miscalculated how many inclines come in a box of the starter inclines.. I bought one box for each starter incline I needed.. I didn't read that 7 or 8 come in a box.. so I have a TON of extra inclines. I figure I will save them for when I expand the layout.
> 
> I can tell you that hot glue does NOT stick to slightly damp plaster covered with "mostly" dried WS sub-grass paint.


LOL! I'm so scared of screwing up I'm going to just lightly glue everything so it can be taken apart WHEN I realize I GOOFED!

I was VERY pleased they came so many to a box! What goes up must come down! I'm going to need to build 4 ramps of identical dimensions for my outside main line. Still not sure if it will be a small hill, a plateau, or just go for it and build that mountain all layouts seem to "must have". Total elevation change is only going to be about 8" from "Level Zero" on the table. Even with thirty feet to run em the grades don't get you THAT much height.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

pat_smith1969 said:


> I can tell you that hot glue does NOT stick to slightly damp plaster covered with "mostly" dried WS sub-grass paint.


Ooops. That's a rookie mistake! No matter how eager you are to press on, trying to forge ahead without giving things time to dry / cure will get you in trouble every time.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

Thus far I have not been enjoying the whole Glue experience.. The hot glue is ok when it works. I didn't like it at first but now I know a bit better how to use it. 

I started using the liquid nails for projects.. and what a holy mess that stuff makes. I find that if I just put a real light layer on the cork, it doesn't hold crap. If I put it a bit thicker I end up getting it everywhere (including my hair). I squirt a bit, even it out on the roadbed with a putty knife. But while I am struggling to get the ends of the track into the ends of the previous track I end up dislodging that track, getting it on my hands, the track, my face.. when I finally get it all in place my ties look kind of grey from the glue. THen I have to wait an hour or two for it to dry. 

I much preferred the nails.. pop a nail in, make sure it doesn't stick up, or is set too deep and go to the next one. Of course you cannot nail with foam subroadbed like discussed earlier.. so I am stuck with the glue (hhehehehe that was intentional).

Edit: Despite my carping.. I am enjoying the whole thing and the fact my so is involved is a huge bonus.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Try adhesive latex caulk. It gives you plenty of working time, and just a little bit holds very well. AFTER it cures though. Wet adhesives really don't hold things that well.

My advice would be: don't struggle to connect track. Work in large chunks. I solder them together on the workbench and bring large sections to the layout. Prefit the sections, making sure the joiners aren't too tight. You shouldn't be wrestling with the track to connect it. One trick is to slide the joiners on as far as they will go, install a track section, then use a small screwdriver to center the joiner on the joint.

Unless you're planning to stop work for a while after installing a given section, don't try to do final alignment right away. You have plenty of working time with these adhesives, and you DON'T need to gob it on. Give it time to set up, and make sure the "working" end of your track is a couple of feet further down, then go back and final align everything, weight it down, and let the adhesive cure.

It sounds to me like you're rushing. Slow down, take your time, and get this RIGHT. Sloppy track work now will lead to frustration later.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

I appreciate your advise CT. 
You are probably right I am rushing too much. Part of the problem is that I am using a lot of Flex track. At first I told myself I was only going to use it in straight sections but I ended up using for curves as well, even though the curves match a 22" standard curve.. this takes a bit more effort because you have to bend it, clip the long end and fasten it to the bed in some fashion. When I built my helix it was easier because I could nail fairly frequently. 

I had been soldering most of the joins in the helix but I read that you should not solder all of them so that the track doesn't buckle when it expands/contracts. So I stopped soldering them and have been leaving a small gap of about 1mm. Soldering would make things a LOT easier.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

I have already rescued two sections of track that would have caused me problems. One place was where for some reason my 1mm gap turned into a -1mm gap... making the track buckle up into the air a little bit. 

I pulled that track apart and snipped a smidgeon off one of the tracks so it now has a small amount of gap.. it no longer is a hump. I can tell you that the Liquid Nails for Projects really holds the track once it dries.. had to slide my razor knife in between the ties and cork. That spot looks good now.

I just wish I had more bottles of Thousand Island dressing so I can do longer sections of track... I wish something other than TI dressing, but that seems to be what people use to do this so... when in Rome...


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

pat_smith1969 said:


> I have already rescued two sections of track that would have caused me problems. One place was where for some reason my 1mm gap turned into a -1mm gap... making the track buckle up into the air a little bit.
> 
> I pulled that track apart and snipped a smidgeon off one of the tracks so it now has a small amount of gap.. it no longer is a hump. I can tell you that the Liquid Nails for Projects really holds the track once it dries.. had to slide my razor knife in between the ties and cork. That spot looks good now.
> 
> I just wish I had more bottles of Thousand Island dressing so I can do longer sections of track... I wish something other than TI dressing, but that seems to be what people use to do this so... when in Rome...


I hope you did not make the same mistake I made getting the "brand name" track cutting tool! IT SUCKS! I cut ONE rail with em and they now look like SAW blades, BARELY cut the rail at ALL, piece o CRAP! Grampa's old "shovel nose" wire cutters go thru em like butta! MUCH better. A wee bit of filing is no big deal.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Hey Pat, you may want to try Dap 230. That's what I use it's very user friendly.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

HA! I did get that tool, it has been working well for me so far. I do have a large snips standing bye in case it fails on me. What I found with that tool is that I must be careful on the angle of it, I must ensure it is 90 degrees to the rail or I get an angled cut, which causes hate and discontent. I have not had to do any filing yet on the ends.. since I try for a 1mm gap, the rough edges of the cuts have not exceeded those tolerances.

Of course I have not had to do much cutting yet, only like 2 or 4 locations. That is getting ready to change however since I am getting to the "stretch of turnouts" where the turnouts must be in very specific locations and I cannot simply plop them at the end of a piece of pre-cut rail.


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## pat_smith1969 (Aug 21, 2016)

I will give that a try JLC...
A poor carpenter blames his tools and I suspect the issue is not the actual glue. I have the grace of an epileptic hippopotamus on a two week bender. 

For now I have decided to think of the grey glue for projects... as "weathering".


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

pat_smith1969 said:


> I appreciate your advise CT.
> You are probably right I am rushing too much. Part of the problem is that I am using a lot of Flex track. At first I told myself I was only going to use it in straight sections but I ended up using for curves as well, even though the curves match a 22" standard curve.. this takes a bit more effort because you have to bend it, clip the long end and fasten it to the bed in some fashion. When I built my helix it was easier because I could nail fairly frequently.
> 
> I had been soldering most of the joins in the helix but I read that you should not solder all of them so that the track doesn't buckle when it expands/contracts. So I stopped soldering them and have been leaving a small gap of about 1mm. Soldering would make things a LOT easier.


Yes, I've laid lots of flextrack. I used MicroEngineering flex track on my last layout. It stays curved once you bend it, so it's much easier to lay (in my opinion -- some people hate it for just that reason).

The expansion and contraction of the rails themselves is small enough over the temperature ranges of the average model railroad that you shouldn't have to worry about it. Wood, on the other hand, will respond rather dramatically to changes in humidity (and temperature, which directly affects humidity), especially if it is unsealed. Allowing a few gaps is a good idea, but you can safely solder 3-4 pieces of track together (about what I have between power feeds).


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I've had that glue everywhere problem, but mine was trying to get a working CV switch flag. That was super glue. At least its not as bad as heat sink compound, now that stuff spreads exponentially and just goes all over! Keep the liquid nail for just foam gluing, and I'll second using DAP 230 for roadbed and also for putting down the flex track (thin, does not take much!) I use map pins to temporarily hold the track before I apply the "TI dressing" or juice boxes. If you solder the track, make sure you do it while its straight, not doing this caused more problems on curves that any other track laying problem!


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

pat_smith1969 said:


> I will give that a try JLC...
> A poor carpenter blames his tools and I suspect the issue is not the actual glue. I have the grace of an epileptic hippopotamus on a two week bender.
> 
> For now I have decided to think of the grey glue for projects... as "weathering".


I actually think these were not what they were purported to be, the metal of the rail sank into the supposedly sharp edge of the tool! I have always been careful because I was always POOR and could not count on a replacement if I diked around and broke something.
It's why I still had Grampas old shovel nose wire cutter.


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