# 675 on the bench



## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Picked up this 675 about a year ago. I put it on the track and when power was applied, you could hear it hum,...but would not move. I have a test track in the shop and when I put it on there,... the train moved a little bit. I have taken the shell off and cleaned the crud off the gears and lubed it. Now I want to test it. If I take an alligator clip and hook to the roller for the power,... what do I hook the other alligator clip (ground) to? The wheels would turn and drop the clip. Is there another way? I don't want to put this on the track because the rods would might get tangled..... Pictures below. I believe the e-switch is suspect because I cycled it a few times before I but it on the test track...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just the metal frame.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Remove the screw and the two rods. You don't want to mess them up. The second clip can go on the frame. I have done this so much That I am going into the e unit to clean the drum. I find it easier to do than clean it in place. I have been cleaning two of it's cousins, 2025"s. I use a spreader tool for the e unit. The challenge is to get it back together. I get lots of practice. Once I placed the drum backwards. Fun, fun, fun.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I never invested in the spreader tool. I use my PanaVise to spread the sides and remove the parts. I've taken to just replacing everything in there when I rebuild them, makes it easier. The parts costs peanuts, and I don't want to get them back anytime soon. 

Your problem is clearly the headlight lens is falling out!


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

yep,. looked at that GRJ.... and that thing is in there mucho tight. It is on the list of things to fix before it goes back together. This engine has been open before....

Thanx T-man. I'll remove that first thing. I took GRJ's advice from another thread about taking a bunch of pictures before I start dis-assembly. I have been taking them at each step.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was really joking about the headlight, but if it's really jammed in there tight, my guess is it's the wrong lens.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

I believe it has been glued in. When I bought the engine I remember looking at that and thinking it needs to be corrected.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You can probably get the correct one pretty easily, than drill a hole in the middle of this one and then chip it out. That will avoid damaging the shell.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

I have been accused of being a "lint picker". I like to think of it as having a good attention to detail. I'll try to gently remove it... and if that doesn't work,... I'll use the dremel tool. I use the dremel tool quite a bit to remove small items like that. I have the jewelers glasses.... like my dentist ! Say Ahhhhhh.

Should have time tonight after evening feed to putz in the shop....


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Did you try (gently) tapping it in more?
I think that they used the lens for more then one model?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have a 2025 in for repair and they don't budge easily. It wouldn't go in. So I suggest tapping it from the back and out. After that if it comes out. Gentle won't do it. Dremel away and smooth the bore. I have a tungsten bit, my favorite for grinding.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My experience with these is the right one will fit without the big hammer. Normally, I use the little plastic hammer to put them in. If it's tighter than that, my take that it's the wrong one is still where I stand.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, I didn't say to smack it with a 10 lb sledge hammer. 

They do make what they call a long lens.

1666E-20 is the regular headlight lens part number.
Then they list a part number 1666E-20L for a headlight lens early, long.

Somehow I guess there is a long in yours.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was actually addressing T-Man's comment Ed, but if the shoe fits, wear it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I was actually addressing T-Man's comment Ed, but if the shoe fits, wear it.


Well even T did not say anything about a"big hammer". 

Both of us said "Tap" or "gently".
You added the big hammer part. 

Matter of fact he was talking about getting it out.
Not tapping it in.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

They should go in easy. I think the hole has a rim to obstruct the lens a little. They do protrude on the inside a little. I may take another wack on that lens. To get it out!

I have two small steel hammers for light work and a short ball peen for more umph. One steel hammer is 2 to 3x the small one.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Done*

The secret is using a 1/4 inch socket as a base and a small hammer and drift pin. The lens fit right into the socket. The socket was a perfect rest for the boiler front.



Since the lens broke, it fits now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Now that is how to fix something.
Break it and it is fixed. 

And no epoxy needed.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm disappointed that no epoxy was used.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*A second 2025 boiler front*

This other engine is more of a runner so I fixed the boiler plate jewel with epoxy.










The cab had a bad dent and with a little heat and pliers I got it back, mostly.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Okay,... first, the headlight was glued in. Would not budge from either side. I ended up snapping off the outside portion and using my dremel to remove the rest. I am guessing that Jeff would have a replacement...

Next,... I took off the rods and hooked up some jumpers to the unit. Nothing....then it moved a wee bit (like it did on the test track a few months ago). I un-soldered the smoke unit and light. My Christmas layout is going to be staying up a few months (it is in the "Museum" part of the house so it is no-ones way) so I am going to put it on the track and see if it runs. Anything wrong with this logic? I'll wait for an answer before doing this....
It is nothing but a classy chassis right now...

Is the smoke unit for the 675 a pill unit?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That is what I do take the rods off and make sure everything that is hanging is secure or off and run it around?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What does the smoke element look like. It should be a pill unit, but some have been retrofitted for liquid smoke.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Jeff has the smoke kit for liquid. I am upgrading the two 2025's.

I look over the reverse unit before testing. I make sure the drum ends are not broken. test it to see it spin.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanx for that GRJ. It is a pill unit and it is all "gunked-up" inside. Didn't someone say you can upgrade them to the liquid unit,... and the liquid units smoke much better. As long as I have it apart...

T-Man,... are you talking about the E-unit? I'm not sure what you mean by "drum ends". Would those be the contacts on the unit and on the switch?
I'll go down and shoot a few pictures and post em in an hour ....


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

There is a drum in the e unit on the bottom when it cycles a arm moves the drum there are notches in it.


Here's the link, (there are more if you need them there is a video in there on rebuilding them too.)

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3040



The drum,


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

I feel better about doing this with support from you guys.....
Now I gotta run back down to the dungeon and have another look.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Parts you need for a smoke unit conversion. I usually use the old metal cap and drill the non grounded lead hole slightly larger so I can insulate that lead. The plastic cap gets distorted sometimes from the heat and doesn't seal up to the smokestack anymore.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Here is the picture of the smoke unit. I have not looked at the drum ends yet. I'll take a peek at it tomorrow. I was looking at Jeff's site and I think I see the kit to make the conversion. I have a 2065 on the layout right now that doesn't smoke very well and I might as well order two.... Jeff has a pdf file on his site with the steps to do the conversion.








I have another question.... should the medallion on the front of the boiler be 675 instead of 5690?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The 1952 production of the 675 always had 5690 on the boiler front (actually the smoke box). Earlier year production was either or.

see here:

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=675


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

FYI, I have found a properly serviced pill smoke unit works better on fluid than any modern replacement would. I have yet to replace a postwar smoke unit for running dry, and have put two units into a modern locomotive (same parts as your conversion kits) that I was always careful about not letting run dry. My original 736 berkshire still smokes better than that other locomotive ever did anyway.

I will also admit to being quite an "originality freak" when it comes to my postwar stuff. If I replace anything it'll be the same type of part that came off. What you do with your locomotive is your business :laugh:


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

If the E unit is the problem, I am going to replace the entire unit. That lets me dissect the old unit and in the process of fixing it...learn from it. No pressure that way. 
Regarding the smoke unit, with the picture that GRJ posted and PDF file Jeff has on his site, I will rebuild the smoke unit to use fluid. I will be putting the unit on the track today after I do a grain run....


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Check out the e unit video. It just looks daunting. The first one takes a bit to fix, after that it's easier. You probably have more experience then me with this stuff. If iI can do it, it shouldn't be a problem for you. You'll have all the tools out allready anyway. What's a few more solder connections?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

santafe158 said:


> FYI, I have found a properly serviced pill smoke unit works better on fluid than any modern replacement would. I have yet to replace a postwar smoke unit for running dry, and have put two units into a modern locomotive (same parts as your conversion kits) that I was always careful about not letting run dry. My original 736 berkshire still smokes better than that other locomotive ever did anyway. What you do with your locomotive is your business.


I agree, I rather have the old pill burner. :thumbsup:


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Robes said:


> If the E unit is the problem, I am going to replace the entire unit. That lets me dissect the old unit and in the process of fixing it...learn from it. No pressure that way.
> Regarding the smoke unit, with the picture that GRJ posted and PDF file Jeff has on his site, I will rebuild the smoke unit to use fluid. I will be putting the unit on the track today after I do a grain run....


Eunit parts:


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Hmmmm. With the break out, that doesn't look too daunting....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

90% of the time, all you need to replace is the drum and the two sets of fingers. The other problem area is the lever that disables the E-Unit, the rivet gets loose.

For the fingers and drum, I use my PanaVice as a spreader and gently spread the sides of the E-Unit, then put in the parts and crimp it together again.

For the lever rivet, the trick is getting access to it. An old hand at repairing these showed me the way, and it certainly wasn't obvious to me!

You work the side of the coil support with the lever on it out of the staked slots, and then just bend the side of the coil support up 90 degrees. You can then easily change the rivet or simply cinch the one that's there up tight. Bend it back and use a vice to squeeze the staked nubs into the slots and you're done. It works amazingly well and it's very easy. I was sure it would screw the coil alignment up, but it doesn't.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

I have established that it is a 1952 model. The headlight lens that was in it was definitely in all the way,... so it was the "extended" lens. I already have the correct part number from Greenbergs... so I will add it to my order for Jeff.
Just got in from morning feed and after I can feel my fingers again... I am going to run the chassis on the test track.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Okay,... put the chassis on the track. Power up... nothing. Fiddle with the e-switch...nothing. Fiddle some more.... and more ...and all of a sudden it takes off like rabbit. Zooming around the track. A little sparking from the front pickup,... but it moved great. I shut down... try it again.... nothing... fiddle fiddle fiddle,... fiddle some more.... Off it goes in reverse... I shut down. power up... .still reverse.... power down... power up.... nothing. Me thinks the e-switch is the culprit. The good news is... it really CAN cook around the track. Kinda looks weird with no shell. 
I have to look into removing the e-switch. WTH,... might as well get a damn good education on how these things work.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Before you take it out, Look at the lever where it contacts the rivets when you move it. Make sure when you move the lever it is making contact on the rivets. sometimes the lever gets bent a little.

Before you yank it all apart just take it out and look at the fingers, make sure none are bent.

Maybe the plunger is sticking, maybe all it needs is a good cleaning.


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## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

before I would ever take it out of the engine I would spray it down with some contact cleaner, let it dry and give it a try. I have several engines where just a quick cleaning was enough.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Yep,... thinking the same thing. Contact cleaner.... something I can pick up at Radio Shack? If I am going to be doing this stuff (I have another locomotive to work on next)... I might as well have all the right tools....


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And check the fingers too! Could be dirty. Clean with a scotch brite or a small peice of cardboard, like a matchbook or business card. Someone else's idea but it works!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

RadioShack® TV Tuner Cleaner
Model: 6404315-1 | Catalog #: 64-148
Price:
$9.49


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think any auto part store sells contact cleaner!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I would watch on what you buy when you spray around electronics.
TV tuner contact cleaner is safe. 

Something like brake cleaner might melt plastics, but they do make a brake cleaner that won't harm plastics. Some brake cleaner will take a while to dry, while others dry pretty quick.

For the trains you can trust that contact cleaner, a can will last a while to.

It is good for a lot more things to, read up on it's uses.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> I think any auto part store sells contact cleaner!


Back in the day - as the kids would say - when you suspected a wet distributor or wires we would spray it with CRC (rust penetrant). WD40 does the same thing they will both displace moisture. 

But the best cleaner we had in the garage was Brakeclean. Don't spray it in the house! They make non-chlorinated versions of it now, but some don't work that well. The story that went around was that it was the same stuff they dry clean clothes with.
Far as I can tell the only thing that tuner cleaner has that brakeclean doesn't is a light lubricant for the tuner shaft.

I use it with no problems.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They sell contact cleaner for today's modern motors, lots of electronics and stuff like that! TV tuner cleaner?!? What year was the last time a TV had a tuner! Same stuff different name! I can't tell from the picture but does it say TV tuner cleaner on it? If it does I'm surprised there still in business!


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> They sell contact cleaner for today's modern motors, lots of electronics and stuff like that! TV tuner cleaner?!? What year was the last time a TV had a tuner! Same stuff different name! I can't tell from the picture but does it say TV tuner cleaner on it? If it does I'm surprised there still in business!



ROFLMAO That is showin' my age! you're right contact cleaner.

Same stuff.:laugh:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

From looking at drums that have been out of use for years. I just remove them and clean with scotch brite. I find the plastic my be roughed up and everthing is smooth when I am done.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> They sell contact cleaner for today's modern motors, lots of electronics and stuff like that! TV tuner cleaner?!? What year was the last time a TV had a tuner! Same stuff different name! I can't tell from the picture but does it say TV tuner cleaner on it? If it does I'm surprised there still in business!


There are still old TV's around that people redo.
That is what the name is, that is how they list it.


RadioShack® TV Tuner Cleaner.

He asked if radio shack had some, that is what they have. :smokin:
They have more expensive stuff too, but that is good enough for him.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Okay.... took it back down to the bench and put it under the lighted magnifier. I had to gently push the wires in front of the drum away so I could see inside. I see the fingers,... and I see the drum. When I move the handle, nothing moves. This is supposed to be a mechanical movement...right? I think the e-unit is going to have to come off....
Edit: Went down and had another look. In the picture that I saw on the other thread supplied, the drum looked like shiny metal. This one looks like black plastic..... Is it just the one screw that holds the e-unit to the frame?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, normally just one little screw, and it slides out. I normally just unsolder the wires from the E-Unit and slide it out and test it on the bench.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

I was thinking the same thing..... unsolder and then look it over. I do not know how to bench test it,.. so at this point, I am going to order a new one from Jeff. I can then tinker with this one and, if repairable, I will have one in inventory....
Edit.... then again, maybe not. I just found the spreader tool on Evil-bay. WTH,... I'm in no hurry. Lets have at it. GRJ,... how do you bench test the E-unit?....


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The coil has two connections. The one with multiple wires has the center rail contact. The other side is the frame ground or common. Touch the transformer leads to each side. The coil should activate and turn the drum. The pawl ( claw) should drop when you disconnect the power.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

To bench test while it's still attached to the motor or after you remove it, all you need to do is ground the frame (motor or E-unit) to one side of your AC transformer and momentarily touch a lead from the other post of transformer to the solder joint where all the wires were connected. 

Obviously the transformer is at track voltage (above 6v). 

Does the plunger retract into the coil? 

Does the drum rotate? 

Do the fingers make good contact with the drum?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Robes,
The drums are plastic and have been made in various colors, including white, black, red, green and clear. The copper contacts on them are the actual switch contacts that the "fingers" touch to reverse the motor. To test the unit, it would be best to unsolder the wires from the motor, so the loco does not lurch away from you.
Here is a brief explanation into how they work, and an introduction into their servicing.
As has been said, spray the fingers and drum with a plastic compatible cleaner, and make sure the fingers are not burned through and make good contact with the drum. Follow T-Man's instructions to test the operation of the unit before you reinstall it.

Larry


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

In case it's not obvious, make sure you are doing the testing with it upright, it's a gravity device and won't work in any other orientation.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

I was just reading (OK lookin at the oictures) your originalpost and spotted something in your second picture:










The linkage to the center wheel is wrong. The connecting rod to the steam chest goes on the outside of the crank with the bushing/spacer between it and the wheel.

Guess it doesn't make much difference now, you've already run it without the linkage, just don't reassemble it like that.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good catch Bob.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

That confirms that this engine has been apart in the past. I bought it from a guy who has had it on a display shelf for the last 30 yrs. A good thing you caught that Bob,.. I was using the pictures as bread crumbs when I put it back together...

GRJ, that is a VERY good thing to know (orientation when testing). Hope to get to it today.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I've done that also, not putting the rods back correctly. In my overzealous to fix the rig I just ignored how the side rods went on. It took a bit of trial and error to get them on. Now I take pictures so I don't forget. That doesn't help when it's wrong to begin with!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That can be a problem with only owning one piece. I have a common practice of checking my duplicates for consistency. I always recommend pictures. I also cheat on rare occasions and do a Google image search.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've searched Google Images a number of times to check various details of locomotives, very handy.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Just came back up from the dungeon and have the e-unit in hand. Many pictures from all angles. What I learned was that this is NOT the original e-unit. The black wire that goes back to the coil in the engine...when I pulled back the insulation.... you could tell by the solder joint it was not original.

I have two brown wires that came off the side of the engine. One goes to the bottom of the front of the e-unit. The other goes to the small board slightly higher on the unit. There is a black wire with the insulation on it that went back to the engine. Which one do is the common and which one is the power. I am going to GUESS that the black wire with the insulation on it is the power.....

I can see how that tool to remove the drum works. Just enough leverage to be able to pop it out....


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Robes,

Use this picture as a reference, along with the schematic here.

Wires from the smoke unit, headlight bulb and roller pickups go to the black solder connection, which also has the coil wire soldered to it. The yellow wire goes to one brush, blue goes to the other brush, and the green goes to the field coil.

Larry


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanx for the picture Larry. The schematic,... I can't print that out. It has permissions..
but I can digest it and store it electronically. It does give a good explanation on how the e-unit works.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Robes said:


> The schematic,... I can't print that out. It has permissions...


You can print these out till your hearts content-

View attachment loc675p1.pdf


View attachment PstWarE-Unit.pdf


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Saved the file... read it on my screen. It all makes sense. I think I have a tool that will do the spread so I can get the drum out. I am not going into town until next week,... so will 91% Iso alcohol clean the drum up? That I have in stock. The fingers look good actually, but the drum is definitely filthy.... I didn't know it had the bands until I read the file....


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Alcohol works fine. I use green Scotch brite pads (from the grocery) for cleaning the contacts and the drum. Gentle does it, just polish them; you don't need to go at it like your sweatin' a copper pipe.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Just pulled the drum out. It was solid black. No copper contacts showing. Not even a hint of copper. GRJ,.. I used a small vise I have for working on watches and it worked perfect!! The scotch-brite with a wee touch of 91% iso alcohol did a nice job. It cleaned up very nice. The four fingers looked almost new. The two fingers were blackened and cleaned up nice with just a wipe of the alcohol. Before I put this pack together... anything else I should check whilst it is apart?

BTW,... I used the iso alcohol on some pads I buy the wife at the dollar store for taking off eye make-up. Does not leave any fibers. I noticed they are almost like the pads you get in gun cleaning kits.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Is the reversing lever tight? Some will be snug when contacting the rivet, but will be loose when rotated away. The b problem with this arrangement is that the lever may drop from vibration during operation.

If it is loose I take out the coil so I can support the back of the rivet while I peen it tight. 

GRJ has a method that doesn't require coil removal.

Now is a good time to replace any wires to the finger assemlies if they need it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bob, I was frankly amazed when Harry Henning showed me the "quick" method of fixing the lever, I never thought it would work! I was even more amazed when the times I've used it, it has worked perfectly, not a busted one in the bunch. 

Robes, for the price of the rebuild kit, if I have to spread the E-Unit, I just stick the drum and both finger sets in, that way I don't have to come back anytime soon. I've yet to do a customer's unit and not just do the whole set.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

The e-unit tool arrived today and I got curious..... so I put it back together. Now,... I am trying to figure out what to hook to what to test this. I remember being told that it has to be in an upright position. The two brown (beige) wires that come out of the unit from each set of fingers go back to the chassis, so I am going to surmise that these are both "common" (ground). Do both of these wires need to be grounded and can they be grounded by the same wire/contact? The contact assembly plate has two contacts, one on each side. Looking at it from the front, the left side has a wire attached that has insulation on it. Do I attach power to the left side or the right side?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

This should help.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

sorry Bob,.. newbie when it comes to this stuff. To me that just looks like hieroglyphics...
I need ...hook your power to (this) and hook your ground to (this)....


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

If you are testing your E-unit hook power to both sides of the coil. These will be opposite posts of the insulated strip on the front of the unit. Lever should 'suck' up into the coil and the drum should rotate one tooth (when held level).

Wire from two contact assembly should connect to outer two contacts of 4 contact assembly alternately as you cycle E-unit -ie: first left contact, then no contact, then right contact, then no contact, etc. (check with an ohmmeter).

Center two contacts from 4 contact assembly (single wire) are tested the same as above. They alternately make contact with the two outer terminals.

If that all works you're ready to install. Remember during testing the unit must be upright as gravity allows the 'plunger' ratchet to drop for the next cycle.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Might be a dumb question,... but I'll ask. I have the chassis with the e-unit, smoke unit and light off. If I connect the wire from the coil in the motor,... to the wire coming from the collector.... the engine should run on a track. Yes?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Not necessarily. The drum on the E-unit makes TWO electrical connections when it is aligned to run the motor (either forward or reverse).

If you artificially create one connection with your 'jumper wire,' what about the other connection. Where you actually need to make the jumped connection depends on the position of the E-unit drum (does it make the other connection?).


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Would I do damage to the "engine" (motor) if I tried that?....cuz I did. The chassis didn't move or go anywhere.... it just hummed....like it was in neutral.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

To run the engine without the e-unit, connect the wire from the rollers to one brush connection, and connect the other brush connection with a jumper wire to the field winding connection. Apply power, and the motor should run. Reverse the 2 brush connections, and the motor will run in the opposite direction. 

Wires from the smoke unit, headlight bulb and roller pickups go to the solder connection with the black wire on it, which also has the coil wire soldered to it. The yellow wire goes to one brush, blue goes to the other brush, and the green goes to the field coil. See this picture for wire identification.

Larry


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Probably not. It might be helpful at this point if you took some pictures and told us where you were with your repair.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Bob,

Thank you for the update to the sketch of the E-unit to motor wiring. It will surely help many people in the future who are new to repairs, or are intimidated by wiring.

Larry


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It helps me too!


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Okay, the E-unit first. The insulated wire is standing straight up in this picture. Each yellow wire is hooked the contacts on either side of the upper circuit board. The track in the fore ground is not hooked up to anything yet. This is just to help me wrap my head around this thing. I have power to both sides, but where does the circuit complete to the ground?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Where are both jumpers connected to the center rail? What exactly are you trying to do?


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Test the e-unit. This set-up doesn't make sense to me. There needs to be a ground....
I'm guessing I am not reading the directions correctly....


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Looking dead on at your picture:

The right yellow jumper lead needs to be connected to the common (outside rail). Examine your E-unit closely and you will see that the only thing the E-unit lever connects to is the metal frame of the unit and the right coil connection rivet. This is the 'ground' connection.

Correct this - power your track - and the E-unit will cycle.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The frame connection is made through the wheels of the locomotive and the outside rail. It is the defacto 'ground' connection. Not because it assumes a particular polarity (DC systems), but because it is an agreed upon common return path (chassis ground) for multiple parallel circuits (in this case the headlight and smoke element as well as the motor.)

Note that the ground is actually made through the E-unit lever which pivots on a rivet electrically connected to the E-unit frame and hence the motor frame and wheels as well.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanx Bob,... that makes sense to me. Completes the circuit. Each time I power up the rail,... the unit should cycle... correct?

And for anyone else lurking on this thread.... you gotta give this a go. If I can do it (with the help of these gents),... you can. There is NO ONE in this area that works on Lionel trains. The last gent got too old and retired.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Disconnect the right yellow jumper wire completely. Hook one end to one outside rail, and the other end to the metal frame of the e-unit. Power up the track, and the e-unit plunger will pull up, turning the drum a bit. Turn off the power, and the plunger will drop down. Power up again, and the plunger will pull up again, advancing the drum some more. Power on and off, and the drum should cycle all the way around.

Larry


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Success!!! the e-unit cycles. About every 6th time the pawl sticks in the up position. I very gentle tap brings it down. It might be because it is not standing exactly straight up. Is there anywhere that the pawl needs a wee bit of lube?


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Now on to the engine.... I would like to test to make sure it is working. If the engine works without the e-unit.... and the e-unit now works.... it should go back together and run (logically).









Here is another question. I have the original smoke unit (pill) and I have not opened it yet but it looks pretty "cruddy". I am having thoughts of replacing the unit with a liquid smoke unit because liquid smoke is MUCH cheaper....but then another part of me says stick with the pill unit to keep it original. Does one either one (pill vs fluid) smoke better?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

There is no need to do what you're attempting in the picture. Besides running over your own wires, derailing the unit and quite possible create a short or letting the magic smoke out of the engine, what will you achieve?

Hook the E-unit back up to the engine and kill two birds with one stone. Remember at this point all you know is that the E-unit cyles; doesn't mean that the fingers make electrical contact with the drum.

There have been tons of pictures and you should have your own for soldering the wires, then test the whole thing as an assembly - E-unit and motor.

Let us know how it turns out.

My personal preference is to use the readily available smoke resistor for liquid smoke. Many have reported that a clean pill type element will smoke with liquid also but I haven't tried that.

Either way, by the time you've cleaned it all out you will have to replace the smoke element anyway.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Never had any intentions on turning up the power. I just wanted to see if I had the connections correct as to power and ground. It does make more sense now to attach the e-unit and just test the whole thing.....


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I've rebuilt the smoker on my 2025, kept the pill element. It smokes rather well using the fluid. I like the idea of not needing to either keep fluid in it or having to add a switch because the liquid types can't be run dry. Just my 2 cents there.


Carl


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I've put fluid in the old pill smokers. , it works.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Okay,... I think I am going to keep the pill smoker and just clean it out. My other engine has a pill smoker too,... and I need to clean that one out (next one up)


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Checked the E-unit one more time and it seemed to work fine. I attached it to the chassis and soldered all the leads. I did not attach the smoke unit or the light. If you look at the front of the unit, the lever was at 1 o'clock. I powered up the engine and it just sat and hummed. I took it off the track and went through it again with the lube. Put it back on the track and it just hummed again. It was like it was trying.... so I gently pushed it around the track a couple of times and it started to move on it's own power. I let it go around a couple of dozen times and it seem to pick up speed the more I let it run. If I shut it down and power back up it does not reverse, but will move forward with a nudge. If I put the lever at 11 o'clock and power up it goes forward . This engine was a shelf queen for the last 45 yrs ( I know the gent I bought it from). My plan is to run it daily for the next two weeks and order a new e-unit. I'll swap out the new unit and see what happens . From what I have read, this e-unit is common on a lot of locomotives so having a spare around won't hurt. I do like the challenge of tinkering around with these things. Putting it back together answered a lot of questions...

Good news is that the smoke unit looks pretty clean. No residue in the chamber . The top of the coil that you see through the top looks a bit burnt, but the wires are not broken.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Do a continuity test on the smoker. Discolored wiring doesn't means it's bad. My 2026 has the original and smokes very nicely, the unit is discolored a bit. It's never been apart as far as I know and mom had it as a girl from brand new. Until recently it even had the factory headlight bulb.

Carl


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

The new E-unit came in this week and I got time to install it. Everything works good,... forward and reverse. The old e-unit,... I am going to rebuild it. I already have a new drum and I will order the new fingers on the next Train Tender order.
Now comes the fun part.... putting everything back together again. 

On another note,.... burned myself with soldering iron today. Damn that smarts.....
Baking soda and water... make a paste and apply.....rinse after about 10 minutes with cold water.


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