# How to nail down track & other HO questions



## Bernard (Nov 9, 2013)

I am going to attempt to make a small 'point to point' rail diorama and as it has been over 40
years since I attached atlas, ahm or whatever track to a board andI need a bit of help please.
I have the nails which fit nicely in the holes provided in the ties, but I can't seem to get past halfway driving 'em before they bend!
Secondly, I have a old AHM Sd40 which runs however it climbs the track on a curve. That is not a problem tho as I plan to only use straights & several switches. Was this 'climbing' something
we hobbyists had years past? I can't remember.
Thirdly, those brass rail joiners don't seem to grip the rails too tightly. Is it necessary for them to?
Finally, my 'main' layout is an eclectic group of streamers/diesels in O gauge purchased as the whim arose. I run conventional, some MTH dcs so am not familiar with dcc which I seem to see a lot of in my LHS, and the local owners are not really into model rr's so they can't advise me.
Thanks in advance for any replies and you folks have a very nice forum it seems.

Bernard


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

As for the SD40 question, what radius is the curve? If it is a real tight curve, the three axle truck can't negotiate the curve and has to climb.
What is the board material? You may have to pre-drill the nail holes.
The track joiners can be tightened up a bit by just flattening them out a bit with a pair of pliers.
I'm not clear on the question about doc, running conventional, MTH etc.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

I would recommend either:
1: purchasing some Homasote (a compressed paper board used for sound deadening) and laying that on top of the plywood. It is easy to drive track nails into, but it holds them very securely.
2: consider gluing the track down to the board with a thin layer of latex caulk. Just don't get any under your switch points.


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## Bernard (Nov 9, 2013)

Thanks for the quick reply. The track I referred to is the standard curve that comes with basic sets. I will have to wait until tomorrow to look & see what radius it is.

I had thought I 'proofread' my work but obviously missed the reference to dcc (not doc).

Just curious why so many use this dcc and what it's benefits are. 

The material I was attempting to nail on is 'Masonite' but what I am going to do is use some
3/4" plywood and put cork ballast strips then the track & switches. 

I am remembering more as I go forward!

Thanks again😀


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Track nail pliers*

A pair of bent nose pliers with a "T" shaped notch cut in them(with a Dremel tool) will make nailing track much easier, and prevent most of the nail bending. If you prefer not to make them, they are available at micromark.com
These days most of us don't nail track at all. We glue it down with caulk, contact cement, or even water base house paint. I've had good results with 3M double sided mounting tape as well. It's available at the paint/tool section of WalMart.
You mentioned brass rail joiners. Is the rail brass also? If you don't plan to run trains on the diorama, that won't matter. Current operating model railroads use nickle silver rail and joiners as they are a lot more reliable.

Good luck with your project. Post a photo when it's done please. We would like to see it.

Traction Fan


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Those track nails are made for attaching track to cork roadbed. If you are trying to nail the track onto plywood you should pre-drill holes in the wood -- using a bit that is about 1/2 to 2/3 the diameter of the nails. Also, once the nail reaches the tie, stop. Do not push the nail is so far that the tie bows downwards -- that might distort the track and cause derailments. You can also hold the nails with needle-nose pliers to keep them straight will getting them started.

Toss the brass rail joiners and get nickel silver rail joiners, which won't corrode and thus will conduct electricity better. All rail joiners loosen up with use. I have a tub of old ones that are not perfect. I use those to set up the layout and make adjustments. Once I am sure that I won't move the track again, I switch to new rail joiners. Even then they sometimes loosen up. You may have to eventually solder them to the rails to get full electrical conductivity.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DCC is digital command control. It is an industry standard, open source system governed by protocals which allow components fro different manufacturers to operate together. MTH's MTS system is a form of DCC, but they chose to keep a proprietary model rather than buy in to the industry standard. MTS and DCC are essentially the same thing.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Bernard

The difference between DC and DCC is like night and Day.

On a DC track every locomotive would do the same thing
when you turn on the power. Or you need a complex set of
blocks, wires and panel switches to control them.

On a DCC track, the power is always on. But no
locomotive runs until you tell it to. You can have several
locomotives running at the same time, each at it's own
speed, stopping and starting while the others run their
routes. You can even have a single track main line with
passing sidings and run trains in opposite directions on it
just as do real railroads. You sure can't do that with DC.

In addition, the wiring is greatly simplified. You do not need
multiple blocks with a panel of switches and more than one
power pack. You have one push button controller and from
it you can run a number of locos at the same time. You can
also add controllers so more than one person can be
running trains. There are just 2 wires going to a small
layout track from the controller.

It works because a decoder is installed in each loco. You can
add them to older locos. They sense digital signals sent out
by the controller. Very high tech, but the operator sees it as
just pushing a buttons like on a TV remote.

AND THE LIGHTS STAY ON. They don't dim and go out when you stop.

Don


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm in the process of laying track using the "old school" method of track nails and spikes. I use Atlas track nails that come in a package and have some MicroEngineering spikes which I use on track like Shinohara, where there are holes on the sides of the ties.

As for nailing the track down, maybe I'm lazy but I don't bother to pre-drill any holes (which I do bother with when building benchwork however). I just insert and tap the nail into the plywood. I'm using OSB in my case and yes, I do bend a few but mostly they go in if I hammer carefully.

Under my main rail yard, I have half inch homasote which I painted first to help make it moisture resistant and give it a base color first. It takes track nails and holds them fine.

Many do glue their track down these days, as noted above, but I dislike that method for a very good reason. It requires you lay your track exactly right as you go, and there is no room for error, otherwise you will find yourself having to peel it up, or pry it up risking damage and having to throw it out and replace it. I'm working on the 10x18' layout in the "My Layout" section of this forum, and I've already had to lift up and relay track many times so far for a number of different reasons, and I have some experience with two layouts before this one. If you need to lift and relay track held down with nails, it's fairly easy to pull them out with needle nose plyers and then go back and relay again. With adhesives, your track is basically permanant right away or as soon as the glue sets.

Now adhesives and glue aren't a bad thing, but I'd rather lay my track, eyeball it, test it, think about it, and be happy with what I have before I put glue to it. After I am happy with it, I plan on ballasting the visible track and then I can pull the nails out - it will be fixed in place with the ballast adhesive. In my staging yard I am not using any adhesive. If I tear the layout down in the future, I can pull out the nails and re-use all that track - which is a tremendous cost savings. Sometimes the old school ways have real advantages over the new ways.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

ditto what riogrande said -- that's how I lay my track, too, for the same reasons.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Nailing track down sounds rather brutal to me. I use Peco track pins and they are ideal, if rather weak but won't be too easy to push into regular ply. Someone mentioned Homosote as a baseboard material, never seen it but sounds like something called Sundeala which modellers in the UK have been using for years and is excellent, easy to drive pins onto and deadens sound too. Gluing seems too permanent for my liking.

If you are considering DCC you really ought to go with it, as mentioned it just adds a whole new dimension to your railroading, you won't be disappointed.

Incidentally those Xuron track cutters are perfect for extracting pins from track work but probably won't do them an awful lot of good!


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Cycleops said:


> Nailing track down sounds rather brutal to me. I use Peco track pins and they are ideal, if rather weak but won't be too easy to push into regular ply. Someone mentioned Homosote as a baseboard material, never seen it but sounds like something called Sundeala which modellers in the UK have been using for years and is excellent, easy to drive pins onto and deadens sound too. Gluing seems too permanent for my liking.
> 
> If you are considering DCC you really ought to go with it, as mentioned it just adds a whole new dimension to your railroading, you won't be disappointed.
> 
> Incidentally those Xuron track cutters are perfect for extracting pins from track work but probably won't do them an awful lot of good!


When I say nail the track down, I'm talking Atlas track nails, from the Atlas model railroad company - they are probably very similar to the Peco pins/nails. They are tiny little nails which are thicker than a straight pin (like those you find in dress shirts sold in mens stores) but 1/2-inch in length and black. As for the spikes they are similar in thickness but instead of having a round nail head, they are bent over and look like a miniature rail spike.

Homasote is found in many lumber stores in America near the drywall and plywood and comes in 4x8 foot sheets and is 1/2-inch. It appears to be made from paper pulp and if you cut it with a power saw makes a lot of dust - so is best cut with a box cutter knife. It works great for yards because you don't need a raised profile that cork or other roadbeds give; flat is ok in a rail yard. I painted it with a base color using latex paint - better appearance, resists moisture and you can draw track centerlines on it to lay track. No messing around in yards with the cork and cutting it.

Beware of using the Xuron rail nippers on pulling nails. They are made for cutting track rail, which is much softer, but metals which are hard can damage them - never use them for cutting wire for example.

BTW, my wife is from the UK, we were just over there in December and we visited a club in Sunderland - near where she is from and another hobbyist there - nice bunch of guys. Both visits there was a lot of American trains there too.

I agree, DCC has a lot of good advantages - its nice to run engines and not have to figure out what block of track is controlled by what power pack etc. Decoders can be had for fairly inexpensive too.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Bent nails*

Bernard;
Masonite, OSB, and plywood, are all much too hard to push a tiny Atlas track nail into with the pliers I suggested. It is "POSSIBLE" to hammer the Atlas nails into these materials, but they're likely to keep right on bending. The hammering process can also lead to bent/ broken ties.
Take one of the prior good recommendations. Either Homosote, or pre-drilled holes. Either of these options will allow starting the nails in with pliers(if you so choose). This will give much better control and avoid tie damage. You can then lightly tap the nail down till it just touches the tie; using a nail set tool with your hammer.

Good luck, and welcome back to the hobby.

Traction fan


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> Bernard;
> Masonite, OSB, and plywood, are all much too hard to push a tiny Atlas track nail into with the pliers I suggested. It is "POSSIBLE" to hammer the Atlas nails into these materials, but they're likely to keep right on bending. The hammering process can also lead to bent/ broken ties.
> Take one of the prior good recommendations. Either Homosote, or pre-drilled holes. Either of these options will allow starting the nails in with pliers(if you so choose). This will give much better control and avoid tie damage. You can then lightly tap the nail down till it just touches the tie; using a nail set tool with your hammer.
> 
> ...


Personally, I use latex caulk to fasten both my track and roadbed down. It sounds permanent, but it's really not that difficult to take it up with a putty knife if you need to. Getting rid of the ballast is far harder.

That said, in the past I did pound track nails into plywood using a small tack hammer, needlenose pliers to hold / support the nail, and a gentle touch. Not a task you're going to finish in a hurry, but very doable.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

traction fan said:


> Bernard;
> Masonite, OSB, and plywood, are all much too hard to push a tiny Atlas track nail into with the pliers I suggested. It is "POSSIBLE" to hammer the Atlas nails into these materials, but they're likely to keep right on bending. The hammering process can also lead to bent/ broken ties.
> Take one of the prior good recommendations. Either Homosote, or pre-drilled holes. Either of these options will allow starting the nails in with pliers(if you so choose). This will give much better control and avoid tie damage. You can then lightly tap the nail down till it just touches the tie; using a nail set tool with your hammer.
> 
> ...


[/quote]

It dose take a hammer, and I probably bend 1 out of 8 nails, but bending a few nails isn't a deal breaker for me. If bending a few nails bothers people, then predrilling holes is something you can do - I'm just too lazy to pre-drill holes when nailing track. The cost of a few bent nails toss in the trash is negligible.

What I do is use a small ball-peen hammer to hammer the track nails about half way in - and then a nail-set to push them down so they are just above the tie, allowing it to wiggle a bit.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

traction fan said:


> Bernard;
> Masonite, OSB, and plywood, are all much too hard to push a tiny Atlas track nail into with the pliers I suggested. It is "POSSIBLE" to hammer the Atlas nails into these materials, but they're likely to keep right on bending. The hammering process can also lead to bent/ broken ties.
> Take one of the prior good recommendations. Either Homosote, or pre-drilled holes. Either of these options will allow starting the nails in with pliers(if you so choose). This will give much better control and avoid tie damage. You can then lightly tap the nail down till it just touches the tie; using a nail set tool with your hammer.
> 
> ...


It does take a hammer, and do bend a few nails, no biggie. If bending a few nails bothers people, then predrilling holes is something you can do - I'm just too lazy to pre-drill holes when nailing track. The cost of a few bent nails toss in the trash is negligible.

What I do is use a small ball-peen hammer to hammer the track nails about half way in - and then a nail-set to push them down so they are just above the tie, allowing it to wiggle a bit.



> I use latex caulk to fasten both my track and roadbed down. It sounds permanent, but it's really not that difficult to take it up with a putty knife if you need to. Getting rid of the ballast is far harder.


Permanent in the sense that you'll have to pry it up and risk damaging track. I am risk averse and don't want to have to buy more new track to replace damaged or distorted track from prying it back up. The risk of damaging or distorting track is basically nil if you use track nails - you can pull them out with needle nose pliers without effect to the track itself.

As far as ballast - I accept that once the track is ballasted, it's set in place and that's that. At some point when things are fixed in place - changes at that point likely mean distruction, but I'm assuming by the time I ballast, I've had a chance to "shake down" the track design and be satisfied with it.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Glue Vs. nails*

I've been in the hobby, and building permanent club, and personal, layouts for many years. 
Sometimes I forget that many of the folks on this forum are still in the, "looking at how to fit the sections of track together on the plywood", mode. No criticism intended. We all started out that way. It's a necessary part of the learning process.
I have to agree that for a temporary layout, nails are better than glue. Perhaps some of you might consider small screws instead of nails. They are easy to put in, and to take back out. They are less likely to bend and thus can be reused many times. Number 2 or 4 flat-head screws would work. Between ties for N scale and possibly HO; through the ties for O & larger.
Your hobby shop is not a good source for screws. There they sell in bags of five for ridiculously high prices. Instead try (crownbolt.com). They sell in boxes of one hundred for a lot less. 
I don't agree that gluing track means you can't possibly align it; and have to get it perfect on the first try. That depends on what kind of glue. Caulk, latex house paint, and white glue all have working times that allow the modeler to adjust the track. Some contact cements and the 3M mounting tape I suggested, do not allow any time. 
I also disagree with the notion that glued track can't be taken up without destroying the track in the process. Again, it depends on what glue was used. Caulk can be removed with WD-40. A putty knife slid along under the track will normally remove it intact. Both latex paint and white glue are water soluble. Spraying the track with water and letting it sit a while, will loosen it enough for the putty knife procedure 

Individual choice as always. I still wouldn't glue down temporary track. When you have a permanent track plan though, glue is a viable option.

Traction fan


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Bernard said:


> Secondly, I have a old AHM Sd40 which runs however it climbs the track on a curve. That is not a problem tho as I plan to only use straights & several switches. Was this 'climbing' something we hobbyists had years past? I can't remember.
> Bernard


To Bernard (the OP)

OK, I think we've covered the track nailing question pretty thoroughly, and you have gotten some response on two of your other questions (rail joiners and DCC), but question #2 (above) has not been addressed, yet.

The climbing that you describe sounds like derailing to me. There is a current thread on that topic that covers a lot of the possibilities. Check it out.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=30201


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Riogrande -- with a little patience and a gentle touch, the risk of damaging track when removing cauld with a putty knife is very small. Not worth worrying about. I removed an entire layout's worth (say 80 linear feet) without damaging a single peice. It only took a couple of hours. I have removed individual sections equally easily.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

traction fan said:


> I also disagree with the notion that glued track can't be taken up without destroying the track in the process. Again, it depends on what glue was used.
> Traction fan


Even after building a couple of sizable layouts, I still can't get some sections right the first time and have had to lift it up and relay it - for various reasons such as forgetting to drill holes under turnouts for under table switch machines, having to remove a section of bench-work to seal a basement leak in a wall, needing to realign a section, etc. I prefer track nails as the track is in a "temporary state" until it is glued down say with ballast. My staging yard may be used for a period of years but it's temporary in terms of being able to lift the track up and re-use it - simply pull out the Atlas track nails and stack and store.

I never said you can't get track up without destroying it, however there is a substantial risk that track will be distorted or bent or worse when taking it back up after gluing it. I am risk averse and prefer the old school methods. As for loosening glue with water, no thanks, messy and unnecessary with track nails and spikes.

As you said, it's an individual choice, but I do want to list the justifications for liking old school so noobs can read and decide for themselves is they agree or if they still want to follow the new guys. If they find later they weren't happy, at least they made an informed decision.

Thats good for you CT. Glad you didn't damage track. Myself, I'd be likely to damage some of it since I"m a bit ham handed - I'll stick with what works for me.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

And I won't say how long I've been in the hobby, because it's irrelevant. While experience is a terrific thing, the same practice that makes PERFECT also makes PERMANENCE. The old saw about not being able to teach an old dog new tricks is true here as well. I fully appreciate that each of us prefers his own method, and that's fine. It's when we start throwing misinformation around that we runinto trouble.

To say, "for me, this doesn't work so well, because x." is a legitimate sharing of experience. To say "this doesn't work..." without the caveat is misleading and unhelpful.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

You are correct, years in the hobby are irrelevant - removed from earlier post. 

In my case, practice does not make perfect, rather, I fall into the "to err is human" category. That is my reasoning as to why I prefer to lay track the way I do - with nails - make it easy to revise, at least in the initial phases.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Continuous improvements*

I remember, years ago, A hammer,pliers and a punch did the job. And not that many bent
nails. You had to be careful as too not bend, warp, deform the plastic representations of
wooden ties. And then there were the fiber ties. That all has been replaced now with nickel
silver rails with plastic blk ties. continuous improvements.


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