# Benchwork and wiring opinions needed....



## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

Well the long wait for my dream is coming to an end and the benchwork is going to start next week. Cleaning my area in my space this weekend and cant wait to start building.

I am planning on building my benchwork out of 2x4's and plywood. I plan on having 16" centers for support to have more to screw down the plywood to it. My questions are: would regular straight construction 2x4s work? Also what type of plywood do I need to use? I know OSB is out but not for sure what to use. I was planning on using 1/2" since my area is in a controlled environment. I will be using regular wood screws.

On my wiring I have a Prodigy Advanced 2 Squared with 3 amp of power. My run would be less than 60 ft with feeders off of that. I was looking at either 12 or 14 gauge for the main bus. My question should I use solid or braided for my main bus wiring and then 16 gauge speaker wire for my feeders? Also what would be a good way to connect the feeders to the main bus with? If it were braided then I was thinking of using the suitcase connectors but if it is solid then I am not sure what to use. Also for the time being I will only be running maybe 4 loco's at 1 time but mostly 2 at a time. So I think that should be plenty of power to operate my layout for now. I do not have any reversing loops on my layout so I dont need a reverser, but would I need some sort of circuit breaker or will the one in the controller be good enough? I also just plan on powering this as 1 district for now. Is that a good idea?

Also what is a good solder to use when soldering feeders to the track. I would rather use something that has the flux in the solder so I am not making messes with the flux. Also where would be a good place to get solder. I stopped at Menards for a short period of time but didnt see any next to the soldering Irons.


Thanks and if anyone has any other advice other than what I am asking please feel free to post it. I am soaking up as much as I can.


Brad


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Brad,

Two cents from me on a couple of items ...

2x4 framing sound fine to me ... even beefy, perhaps, for the main "deck" framing. Leg supports should have diagonal or gusset bracing, in my opinion. My only recommendation for working with 2x4 is to make sure that the wood is properly dried. It's common to build things with "fresh lumber", taking care to cut parts to precise measurements ... only to have it all shrink and open up over the ensuing weeks. Not good.

I'm a big fan of MDF for a deck surface. Dead flat, dimensionally stable, cheap. Not great with any water spillage, though, so consider that.

I use a rosin-core solder for electrical applications.

Hope that helps just a bit,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Truthfully, I'd probably save some bulk and expense and use 2x3 lumber, more than sufficient on 16" centers! I'm doing the same thing, and I'm using 2x3 on 24" centers, and I have no doubts it'll be more than sufficient.

Clearly, rosin core solder is the correct choice as TJ has stated. You can get it mail-order from any number of places. If 14 gauge wire isn't doing the job properly, you have other problems, that's more than sufficient!


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks for the reply's guys. I feel more comfortable using 16" centers that way I know my plywood wont warp. I did see the 2x3 but didnt check out the price on those. I will check it out before I purchase though.

I am ok with using 14 gauge wire but should I use the solid or stranded for my bus line? What would be the best way to connect the feeders to whatever I use?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Truthfully, any decent plywood shouldn't warp, that's the whole idea of the multiple layers. 

For the bus line, it's probably a bit more convenient to use solid, you can form it and it'll stay put. I'd just solder the feeders on it.


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Hi Brad,
> 
> Two cents from me on a couple of items ...
> 
> ...


So TJ

Would I be wiser to use 1x4's instead to keep the warpage down? When I was at the lumber yard the sign did say kiln dried so I assume that it wont warp quite as much if at all. Am I wrong to think this? 

So if I were to use 1x4's is there a certain type to get or will construction do? I am not really concerned about it being beffy just dont want it to warp much once together. Whatever I use will set in the room for a week or so before I start construction so I can see if it will be ok to use. 

Anymore info you have would be greatly appreciated.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd use 2x3 over 1x4 lumber.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Using 3/4" ply ripped to 3 1/2" boards gives you a very stable bundle of 1x4s at about half the price of clean pine---and---they won't warp or twist. Use a good quality 3/4" ply and one very straight 1x4 as a saw guide, cut and assemble as you would clean lumber.

OSB or MDF is tempting but, as pointed out, they aren't big fans of water...humidity will be a long term issue as well. Clean pine isn't getting any cheaper and lesser grades will give you a fit down the road with the aforementioned humidity issues.

1" blue or pink foam makes a very stable and economical base that's easily altered for terrain, though it can be a sounding board for louder drive trains.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Per comments above, I'd shy away from solid-wood 1x4's. Even if high-grade clear wood, they'll eventually warp. 2x3 is a better sized option than 2x4. However, Shay's suggestion to rip 1x4 out of high grade plywood is an excellent one. Much more dimensionally stable than solid wood. Cheaper, too, considering how many strips you can get from a standard 4'x8' sheet. You might even be able to have the lumber yard rip them down to size for you.

TJ


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## Bucklaew (Oct 7, 2010)

BDP said:


> Thanks for the reply's guys. I feel more comfortable using 16" centers that way I know my plywood wont warp. I did see the 2x3 but didnt check out the price on those. I will check it out before I purchase though.
> 
> I am ok with using 14 gauge wire but should I use the solid or stranded for my bus line? What would be the best way to connect the feeders to whatever I use?


Solid wire = is for short runs and no vibration. 
Stranded wire = is for longer runs and where you have any vibration.

I use solid for busses that feed a voltage from one spot to many different points. From the busses to say switches where you are connecting a ground 14 guage is over kill. Life Like switches come with 22 ga. wire already attached and it is stranded. I also like stranded because it bends very easily and is easier to hide. 14 ga for power application should be good. I am using a 5 amp power supply and I am using stranded 14 for my power to my tracks. For LED lighting I am using 12 Ga. for my busses and running 22 GA. for the lights.

Happy New Year all.


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> Using 3/4" ply ripped to 3 1/2" boards gives you a very stable bundle of 1x4s at about half the price of clean pine---and---they won't warp or twist. Use a good quality 3/4" ply and one very straight 1x4 as a saw guide, cut and assemble as you would clean lumber.
> 
> OSB or MDF is tempting but, as pointed out, they aren't big fans of water...humidity will be a long term issue as well. Clean pine isn't getting any cheaper and lesser grades will give you a fit down the road with the aforementioned humidity issues.
> 
> 1" blue or pink foam makes a very stable and economical base that's easily altered for terrain, though it can be a sounding board for louder drive trains.


I did think about doing this at one time but I dont have a table saw to cut the plywood into the strips and I know I wouldnt be patient enough to cut them with a guide and a saw. 

I wont be able to use foam for my base because I have to young boys who will be working and playing on the layout also and I know that one of them would bust through it. So that is out of the question.

Would I really be saving money by using strips of 3/4" plywood vs something else? I would have to use more bracing to hold up the layout I would think. That is why I was thinking 2x4's or 2x3's. I have a few 2x4 in my basement where the layout is going and they are not warped as of now. 3/4" stuff makes me leary of using.



Bucklaew said:


> Solid wire = is for short runs and no vibration.
> Stranded wire = is for longer runs and where you have any vibration.
> 
> I use solid for busses that feed a voltage from one spot to many different points. From the busses to say switches where you are connecting a ground 14 guage is over kill. Life Like switches come with 22 ga. wire already attached and it is stranded. I also like stranded because it bends very easily and is easier to hide. 14 ga for power application should be good. I am using a 5 amp power supply and I am using stranded 14 for my power to my tracks. For LED lighting I am using 12 Ga. for my busses and running 22 GA. for the lights.
> ...


This is what I was wanting to know as far as wiring. I will use stranded for my 2 30ft runs and 18 or 20 gauge for my feeders.

Do you think the stranded will carry the amps all the way around the 2 30ft runs? I plan on putting the controller in the middle of my 60ft run that is why the 2 30ft runs.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

BDP said:


> I know I wouldnt be patient enough to cut them with a guide and a saw.


...and there's the rub...patience. Without it, you'll have your own rendition of the Plywood Pacific Railroad in your basement in no time.:thumbsup:



BDP said:


> Would I really be saving money by using strips of 3/4" plywood vs something else? I would have to use more bracing to hold up the layout I would think. That is why I was thinking 2x4's or 2x3's. I have a few 2x4 in my basement where the layout is going and they are not warped as of now. 3/4" stuff makes me leary of using.


I believe you would save money and it would be lightweight and sturdy to boot as most first layouts are way overbuilt. I believe the foam will surprise you as well.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can assure you that using 2x3 framing will support any train configuration you'd ever put there. I have a workbench 8' x 2' using 2x3 supports, and at 185#, I can stand on it and jump up and down, no worries about the structure. I think 1/2" plywood and 2x3 framing will be more than sufficient.

I'm not familiar with any foam that's 1" thick that I'd trust without backing, but maybe that's something for my education.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If you have 2x4 I would use them?
Why go and buy something if you don't have to?

2x4's have more meat to them then 2x3's anyway.
Most places will cut the plywood sheets for you if that is what you decide to do.

Foam board on top of the plywood is what their saying (I think), that should be no problem with the kids. 
That way you have more options to build a diverse terrain. Rivers,lake or whatever.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I can assure you that using 2x3 framing will support any train configuration you'd ever put there. I have a workbench 8' x 2' using 2x3 supports, and at 185#, I can stand on it and jump up and down, no worries about the structure. I think 1/2" plywood and 2x3 framing will be more than sufficient.
> 
> I'm not familiar with any foam that's 1" thick that I'd trust without backing, but maybe that's something for my education.


I would like to have a picture of you jumping up and down on your layout.:laugh:

I sit on mine , but at 260 lbs I wouldn't jump up and down on it.:laugh:


The true measurement of a 2x4 is actually about 1.5x3.5. When the board is first rough sawed from the log, it is a true 2x4, but the drying process and planing of the board reduce it to the finished 1.5x3.5 size. The lumber is then sold as a "2x4" because the cost of the drying and machining are figured in ... it is also much easier to refer to a board as a "2x4", rather than a "1.5x3.5". 


The true finished measurement of a 2x3 is, 1 1/2 x 2 1/2

I say if he all ready has the 2x4's use them.
Why buy something if you don't have to?
Can't hurt anything?hwell:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Can't disagree that 2x4's are fine if he has enough. My point was that 2x3's are cheaper and more than sufficient for the job. I do realize what finished lumber sizes are, I've done a lot of carpentry, including adding an addition to my previous house. 

I was jumping up and down on the workbench, not my layout. I was building the workbench on my deck (more room to work). My wife expressed some doubt that the 8' span would be strong enough without center legs, I gave her a demo of the strength.


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

big ed said:


> If you have 2x4 I would use them?
> Why go and buy something if you don't have to?
> 
> 2x4's have more meat to them then 2x3's anyway.
> ...


BigEd

I just have a few 2x4's in my basement not near enough for what I need to do the layout. The theme of my layout will be in the midwest so it is mostly flat so I will probably just put my roadbed on the plywood instead of using any foam.

I am going to be using 14 gauge stranded wire for my main bus line.


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## harley-guy (Aug 28, 2010)

i am new to the bobby but i have experience with building and wiring. even though some may think 2x4's are excessive but that is what i would use. i would also go with 24" centers minimum. now for ur tabletop it depends on if you are going to cover it with senery. if it is gonna be covered 1/2 plywood would be fine. if it isnt gonna be covered i would use a hardwood plywood its a litle more expenssive but if its not gonna be covered it will look better. now for the wiring. for ur main bus line i would use 12 gauge wire. now for ur feeders i would use 16 gauge minimum just cause how long ur runs are gonna be. some may think its over kill but what most dont think about is wire does have a drop over a certain length. i cant find my formula to show u what i am talking about. i also go bigger then required normally cause i dont want to go back and re-do work. i would also go with stranded wire over solid just for the ease of working with. again this is just my 2 cence


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, I think it's overkill. For 10 meters at 5A, the drop difference between #12 and #16 is slightly more than a tenth of a volt. I doubt the main bus will be anything like 10 meters, or the feeds for that matter.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

John,

Nice table, especially with the voltage drop column!

TJ


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

Thanks for posting that chart John. Looks like I will be using 12 gauge for my main bus. I would rather have overkill on the wiring and have smooth running loco's. 

I purchased the MRC Prodigy Advanced 2 Squared with 3 amps. Will this be enough power to run 3-4 loco's with both of those 30 ft runs or should I plan on purchasing a booster also? I plan on running my whole layout at 1 district since I am only going to run a few locos's at a time.

Also should I invest in some sort of circuit breaker for the layout or just rely on the one that is in the controller, if there is one? Not for sure, need to check it out.


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## harley-guy (Aug 28, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn u calculated for 10' not 10 meters and he said he is gonna have 30' feeders. i also am used to following a rule of thumb of no more than a 3% drop which i use when wiring. i also said to go heavier because it gives room to expand if he wanted to add a power booster. i would rather go overkill then having to go back and beef it up if he expanded. here is the link to the calculater i used. it is ultimatley his choice

http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm


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## harley-guy (Aug 28, 2010)

the advanced will be able to handle up to six locos before needing a booster. i have ran four on my buddies express which is 1.6 amp output and u only notcie a diff when u start running the forth loco. 1 amp is good for two locos


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> John,
> 
> Nice table, especially with the voltage drop column!
> 
> TJ


I just did a search on Google and took a snapshot of the page after typing the stuff. The notes are added with Techsmith Snag-It, great screen capture utility.


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

harley-guy said:


> gunrunnerjohn u calculated for 10' not 10 meters and he said he is gonna have 30' feeders. i also am used to following a rule of thumb of no more than a 3% drop which i use when wiring. i also said to go heavier because it gives room to expand if he wanted to add a power booster. i would rather go overkill then having to go back and beef it up if he expanded. here is the link to the calculater i used. it is ultimatley his choice
> 
> http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm


I have a total of 60' of main bus line. I plan on having the MRC controller in the middle of that so I will have (2) 30' runs and not 1 30' run. Didnt know if that was a typo or I did make myself clearer in the beginning.


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

So I am assuming that going with 12 gauge is the best with the long run that I have. I will either run 18 or 20 gauge feeders, probably 18 to be safe and have less resistance.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The bigger wire won't hurt anything, that's for sure.


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## harley-guy (Aug 28, 2010)

just curious what is the layout size. i know u said it will be sixty long but what is the width havent seen it posted.


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## BDP (Nov 25, 2010)

harley-guy said:


> just curious what is the layout size. i know u said it will be sixty long but what is the width havent seen it posted.


The layout size is 18x10 with a 2x6 finger in the middle off one of the 10' ends. Those are the outside dimensions of the layout. The main bus line will be a little shorter than that.


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