# Need help choosing HO Locomotive



## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Background
Hello I'm basically new to the hobby, as the few trains I played with when I was 10 were toys compared to what is offered now. I have been researching and studying all the basics and advanced parts of model railroading recently to work on my ceiling shelf project. My goal is to have an impressive long freight train. I ended up buying a couple cheap DCC Bachmann locos and an EZ controller (I know now I should have invested in Digitrax) to see if the newer engines could operate better then my old Tyco/Bachmann ones from the past. My shelf track is not complete to allow me reliable testing to see what my current engines can pull but I'm assuming they won't be as good as pricer options.

My Question
I am looking for what will be my primary locomotive for my smoothest running long freight car setup. My ceiling shelf track has grading and rises, not completely level like a nice table setup. My turns are approximately 42-46" radius. I'm presently looking at Broadway Limited diesels as they are one of the few that advertises the drawbar pull and slow motion capabilities of their products. I'm specifically looking at c30-7 and the AC6000. I would like to make sure before I consider purchase that I'm not missing out on better pulling engines from another manufacturer. So far I have not seen evidence of other engines in that price point being able to top BLI's sounds, pulling and slow gearing.

Also has anyone owned or operated the BLI c30-7 or AC6000 in comparison? The AC6000 is slightly more costly, not sure if it because it is better or just heavier?


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

I can't tell you much about diesels (I'm a steam guy). But do not assume that pulling power and price are related, because sometimes they are not.

You can always get two similar locos and double them up for more pulling power -- like real railroads do all the time.

Another thing you can do to increase the train length is to pay attention to your rolling stock. Test each car and work on those that seem to roll with more resistance. I have had to change out wheels and sometimes even the trucks to get my cars to be more free rolling. Also, since you have grades, do not automatically add weight to your cars up to the standards recommended. If the cars do not derail, don't add weight. If a car derails, don't automatically add weight. Make sure that the wheels are in spec first.

P.S. Another thing to do is to get a truck tuner. It sometimes helps make wheels more free-rolling.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

MtRR75 said:


> I can't tell you much about diesels (I'm a steam guy). But do not assume that pulling power and price are related, because sometimes they are not.
> 
> You can always get two similar locos and double them up for more pulling power -- like real railroads do all the time.
> 
> ...


Thanks I did purchase a truck tuner, 1/4oz wheel weights, and a bag of kadee metal wheel sets. I have not gone through my rolling stock yet as my track is still in early stages. You do provide av excellent point to try them out first and fix as necessary, I may have gone and added weight prematurely without that advice.

I don't generally assume higher price means more pull, but I'm willing to bet money the BLI will run better then the low end Bachmann model. I have read about running consist engines, yet I personally would like to get one powerful workhorse loco and if need be use the Bachmann as the secondary engine.

I just want to make sure I don't buy the BLI and find out Atlas, MTH, Bowser, or whatever make a better pulling/tractive engine.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Depends what Bachmann DCC loco you got. I have both the F7
and GP. I run 2 consists..2 GPs and on another train, 2 F7s.
They are surprisingly good pullers.

At this point I haven't had any wheel slip from either when pulling
20 plus cars.

If you're planning trains longer than that you will most likely want
to buy matched pairs of locos to pull them smoothly, especially, since
you have grades and unlevel tracks. In most cases, one loco is 
going to be limited to somewhere around 20 cars.

With those wide radius curves you'll be able run any loco out there.

Don


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

Don. You got that right about any engine fitting. His radius track is very wide. It will look really real coming around those corners. You could probably have a dd40 roll on it and it wouldn't look out of place. By the way. Are you also planning to do scenery or just the tracks on the shelfs like how they used to do in old toy stores?


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

SNNRail. I would suggest going a head and upgrade on a dcc controller. EZ commands are limited. So I've heard. Digitrax nce and they're are more. I can tell you tho that your dcc engines will be way better at speed control slow speed operation than the old school DC tycos (I think your referring to). Also with dcc. You can customize the cv's to tailor it to your liking. DCC is GREAT!!!!


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Yeah this whole endeavor has gotten me into spending much more then I had originally intended. This is the reason I began spending less on the controller and all at first. Just upgrading to DCC was an investment, I've also had to buy many other materials, tools and cars. Which was a big leap for me, as when I dreamed putting a train in the nursery, I thought I could get away with using an everyday old train set. However I want stability out of my railroad and have learned I need metal wheel sets, body mounted couplers, wide turns/easements, whooo that's not even all of it, but it's a lot to take in from ground zero.

I really could get anther lower priced Bachmann to match up but I want to know if I invest a couple hundred $$$ would these be great pulling units or am I missing out on another model? Even if I still had to run two of them in consist.


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

I have all athearn engines. My sd-45 can pull 20 cars no problem. Have you heard of Kato, Intermountain,Athearn? They all make good engines. On my engines I turned the starting volts up and turned up the kick rate and torque.


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

On your Bachman engine. Does it have all wheel drive with flywheels?


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

BNSFcountryCA said:


> Don. You got that right about any engine fitting. His radius track is very wide. It will look really real coming around those corners. You could probably have a dd40 roll on it and it wouldn't look out of place. By the way. Are you also planning to do scenery or just the tracks on the shelfs like how they used to do in old toy stores?


When I started this I had no idea what radius turns were. After looking at suggestions and this particular web link: radius_rule-of-thumb. I wanted to have the future potential to carry longer cars and for maximum stability to limit possible derailments.

There won't be much scenery as parts of the shelf are made to be narrow and dramatic, showing off the train. I do have a wider area to have a small yard and possible scenery, but these are still far off implementing.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

BNSFcountryCA said:


> On your Bachman engine. Does it have all wheel drive with flywheels?


It has all wheel drive, haven't weighed it yet... Here is a link http://www.hobbyfrenzy.com/html/Bach60301.htm

At the time I bought this I thought all DCC ready locos came with sounds. Doh, lesson learned!


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

The way I see radius is. The wider the easier the faster the trains can turn on it. Less resistance. I used to mess with that life like power loc track. Steel rails. All crap. Have 3-4 train sets worth of it. I seriously got in to the hobby around a year ago using that track. I then started looking online. (Woulda been nice if I knew this forum existed back then) found out nickel silver track is the best and in February when I got my income tax. I went all out and spent $1000 on track NCE powercab dcc engine decoders more track off eBay and beer


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

And I forgot to mention I bought plywood and 4x4's and 2x4's to build my 4x8.


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

If you want sound? Plan on a extra $100


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

Just seen that engine on the link. That's a nice price for being dcc.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

SNN,

First of all, you have stumbled upon an essential truth about this hobby. It is a money pit. It will gladly spend all that you have budgeted and more. Be afraid. Be very, very afraid.

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with BLI. I do have lots of experience with advertising. Take everything you read in their ads (or anyone's, for that matter) with a large grain of salt. The Truth In Advertising Act has a lot of loopholes in it.

That said, I can tell you that there are a lot of good performing engines out there priced significantly below the BLI models. I have Proto 2000 (now Walthers Proto), Proto 1000 (now Walthers Mainline), Walthers Trainline, IHC Command XXV, Athearn Genesis, Atlas, Mantua, and Bachmann Spectrum locomotives. They all run very well, and only the GE 44 Tonner (Bachmann Spectrum) doesn't pull very well. Then again, it's a tiny switcher, only designed to pull small cuts of cars. Especially since it sounds like your layout won't be down too close to eye level, you may be better serverd by cheaper, less detailed locos.

One last thing. How are you going to keep trains in those narrow spots from taking that long, fatal plunge to the floor?


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your replies. I actually got the engine for $10 cheaper, still new in the box on eBay. 

I really want to have sound on my next locomotive, not sure if I'm ready to drop in decoders myself. 

Also not sure what to do to guard against derailments. So far I'm trying to engineer things to be less likely to derail, slow speed, long straights, wide turns, gluing track down, metal wheels, lots of testing, upgraded couplers. I am still thinking up maybe some guardrail type thing to catch the train. There are many examples online of ceiling railroads and none had any less danger inherent there.

About the comparison to some other brands, I know two videos I've seen on YouTube of the BLI AC6000 out pulling comparison engines. This is what inspires me to get one. Why settle for one engine pulling 20 cars or two engines pulling 30 if this one may have the ability to pull more? Advertised BLI touts 2.5 oz pull and they "advertise" it translates to 60 cars behind one engine. I know my track will greatly reduce that number and I know to see through their marketing. What does 60 cars mean? Are they 60 short empty gondolas on a track going down hill or is it 60 weighed 86' cars? They leave that part out. But I have seen like I said people comparing them or reviewing them and being very happy over other models. Just wanted to feel out opinion here. Thanks all so far on your input!


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

Your welcome


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Just my 2¢ worth but for really long trains I like the look of 2 or 3 power units up front. :thumbsup: I run two on my 20 car trains because they look cool. 
A lot depends on what era your modeling and also freight or passenger.

Magic


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Freight and sticking around modern era with my main setup. I will have a passenger train as well probably with F7a or steamer.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

SNNRail said:


> Also not sure what to do to guard against derailments. So far I'm trying to engineer things to be less likely to derail, slow speed, long straights, wide turns, gluing track down, metal wheels, lots of testing, upgraded couplers. I am still thinking up maybe some guardrail type thing to catch the train.


There are two basic choices for a guard rail. One is a plexiglas wall high enough to keep a derailed train from rolling off. That is what I have on my 4x8 table. The disadvantage to using plexiglas on a ceiling layout is that you have to look through the plexiglas to see the train. That reduces the visual effect and may have glare from ceiling lights.

The other is to build an actual rail out of wood or metal with widely spaced posts. You could make the rail at the right height so that a car or loco could not slip under it. You would view the train by looking under the rail, but there would still be some visual interference.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

I've thought about using plexi under small sections of the track but didn't think about using it as a border... I have some scraps laying around, I can at least see how it looks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The DCC Bachmann GPs and Fs have all wheel drive and power pickup.
Some, depending on when manufactured, have fly wheels. They are also
well weighted.

What are your operating plans? 
Since this is a ceiling
shelf layout it would seem that you expect to mostly set 
trains running with little switching. 

If that is the case, your Bachmann EZ should be sufficient
to run the trains. As mentioned, you cannot adjust
CVs in the DCC decoder with the Bachmann, but unless
you plan to add several sound locomotives that may
not matter.

Basically, the Bachmann EZ is ample for a simple
layout running 3 or 4 trains. 

If the layout goes around the room or through
several rooms it will be important to run a
14 gauge or so power buss with drops from
the track every 5 or 6 feet so that the DCC power
and signal is distributed equally. Let the buss
dead end. Do not let it make a circle.

Don


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

SNNRail said:


> I've thought about using plexi under small sections of the track but didn't think about using it as a border... I have some scraps laying around, I can at least see how it looks.


On my 4x8 my outter line is 2 inches from the end/edge of my table and I have no lip or anything in place to stop it from just plunging down to the concrete and derailment was a fear at first. Until I found that if its your engine that goes to derail it tends to short out the system which automatically turns off for several seconds and cuts power. So I haven't had a engine fall yet and it's been 6 months. But I did have a few cars fall off once but that was because one of my cars wheels had derailed and I didn't stop the engine when I first heard the sound of the wheels off the rails.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

For anyone interested I just created a thread in the layout forum to detail my progress on my project with photos.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=288314#post288314


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## jesteck (Apr 15, 2014)

SNNRail, with a ceiling layout- I assume it will average about nearly 7' above floor level to clear doorways and such- ANY kind of "rollover barrier", whether clear plexi or any kind of fence, is going to reduce the visibility of the trains and depending on ceiling height make it that much more difficult to rerail a derailment when (not if) it does occur. The longer the train, the higher the probability, and it will always happen when or where you're not looking. Three suggestions: 1) don't show off and highball. 2) invest in a decent looking, stable, and sturdy stepladder that you aren't embarrassed to leave in the room; you'll need to get at least eye level with the track to put 'em back on. 3) Shag carpet below the track to help cushion the blow if a car or two happens to fo flight-happy sounds like a good idea, until you start looking for those tiny coupler parts that inevitably fly off when they land.
Whoops, my mistake; make that _four_ suggestions; *do not under any circumstances get a cat!!!*


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Just to update on my endeavor to learn how different DCC engines run in comparison. I have gotten ahold of 3 different (but similar) Bachmann locomotives and a switcher. I found these to be okay and believed I would use them to pull/push a long consist. Then the other day I found a decent deal on a Walthers Proto with Tsunami sound Soundtraxx decoder. I was absolutely blown away by this model! I now have witnessed the difference between lower end vs the pricey options. First the quality in detail is highly apparent, better weighted, the lights are crisp and bright, sounds are pretty cool too. But the real decider for me was running the different engines on a level test oval track. The Bachmanns I found to be jerky and inconsistent starting from 0-33% throttle, and after placing 15 cars behind it, the friction of the stock and the lower radius turns (on test track) began the loss of traction for the locomotive. I then placed the brand new Walthers locomotive on and lightly gave it throttle. It immediately responded to the control and like butter the consist smoothly moved forward. The low speed operations of this one engine sold me and I'm now selling off the Bachmann locomotives as they are decent but for my purposes they just are not what I need.

I thought I would share my experience with anyone checking this thread out to know what my results have been with different brands locomotives. I do like the Bachmann engines and for some they are a great way to try DCC. Kind of like gateway drugs Lol, now I'm hooked into bigger and better!


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

What type of engine is it?


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

GE U30b

Here is a product page for my particular model. 
http://www.trainz.com/p-320212-walthers-41660-ge-u28b-u30b-nyc-2844.aspx

As impressed as I am by it functionality wise, I do not prefer the particular engine class or NYC coloring for this model. I will most likely try to sell this back on eBay and buy a AC6000 either in union pacific or CSX coloring.


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## BNSFcountryCA (Jul 22, 2014)

Get a SD they have more pulling power and more wheels which I think they can pull more. My gp50 sucks compaired to my SD45s


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Posted this under my layout thread, but thought I would post here too.

This is the U30B with sounds. I later ran all the engines on the track using DCC to independent control speeds. But didn't have a free hand to film it.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrgcAEyXfOY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## BK R (Dec 8, 2012)

The first steamer is a BLI, great sound and great puller.

http://youtu.be/Y9XH45mcgiU?list=UU-upH_MJs4fcGFW94XwN9jA


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## TA462 (Oct 17, 2014)

My best pullers are my Proto 2000 SD40-2M's (yes they made them) and my Proto 2000 SD45's. I have a few Kato AC4400's that are great pullers too.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

TA462 said:


> My best pullers are my Proto 2000 SD40-2M's (yes they made them) and my Proto 2000 SD45's. I have a few Kato AC4400's that are great pullers too.


I just sold my Proto U30 but it was an exceptional locomotive.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Just got the engine I really liked since I started this thread. I got a used, weathered Broadway Limited Imports AC6000 with union pacific colors. I really like the sounds on this engine and I have yet to be able to access all of them (EZ Command limitations). The take off does not seem as smooth with this as with the Proto. But I know the previous owner changed speed values and it's possible the controller is causing the delayed start.

Haven't run an practice runs with this pulling a load but I am really impressed by the model.

Here are some pictures and video of the engine.













Size comparison of an old Bachmann engine vs the BLI

YouTube video of it on some test track. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVn76WioZGI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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