# Lionel 665 and 1033 Transformer, help figure out my issue



## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

***DISCLAIMER*** I'm a complete newbie.

I've got an oval on a 4'x8' platform with an O-22 switch (pic attached). The locomotive is a 665 in pretty good shape, though it's been in an attic for 10+ years. The transformer is a 1033.

Here's what happens:

I hook up the 1033 to the track, increase the speed lever, and the O-22 light gets progressively brighter the higher I go. I put the 665 on the track and turn up the speed and the light on the O-22 is very dim, sort of flickers. You can also hear the 665's motor buzzing a little, but no movement. I used a voltmeter and tested the transformer at the screws on it, at the track without the 665 on it, then with the 665 on the track. Here are the results:

At transformer screws and at track w/out 665:
Off - 0v
100% - 16v

At track w/ 665:
Off - 0v
1-100% - "flickers/sputters" barely a volt max.

So here's my newb analysis...

Could the O-22 be causing it since it just ends without reconnecting to the oval? At a glance, the track looks like it is heading straight, and not off to the right.

The 1033 transformer is shot.

The 665 locomotive is having some issue.

I did clean all the track with a scotch brite pad and WD-40, as well as the contacts on the rollers on the 665.

One other thing I noticed is that the rollers on the bottom of the 665 aren't clipped in on one side (maybe this is normal, doesn't seem so). I have the "Important/Lubrication" clip on it and the roller mechanism stays on, but if I unclip the clip, the roller mechanism swings down rather freely. I'll try to get a video up of it. Basically one of the tabs won't go into the slot on the plastic piece, the "Important" clip keeps it snug against the plastic piece.

Thanks in advance for all the help - I've already gotten a lot from searching, just couldn't find anyone with this same issue. Hopefully I've explained it well enough.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think you should remove the switch and shorten the oval to narrow down the possibilities.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The switch is OK as it doesn't load the transformer when the engine is not on the track. You either have a problem with the engine or the wiring between the transformer and the track. 
Do the wheels on the engine turn freely? Can you lay the engine on its back and touch one wire from the transformer to the roller pickup and one wire to a wheel and make the engine run? If you have an E relay in the engine, you will have to make sure it is not in neutral when the engine is upside down. You can sequence the E relay by turning the engine right side up and then upside down again.

Have you lubed the engine? If it is dry of lubrication, it will not run very well, maybe not at all.
BB


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You need two insulator pins on the inside rails of the y of the switch. Are they there?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

T, if the insulator pins were not in place, the switch would chatter.
He has a RH switch which has steel pins in the same end as the insulator pins, so likely the insulator pins are in place.
BB


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for the quick replies.

The wheels on the engine turn freely. I'll try to get the engine to run by touching the wires, but won't be able to get to it until this afternoon. How do I know if I have an E relay? I haven't lubed the engine, where do I do that? With what? 

The switch does have the insulator pins.

One other thing I thought of this morning. I'm using new 18 AWG wire to hook up the transformer to the track. It's solid wire and in order to plug the transformer into the wall, I needed about 6-8ft. of the 18 AWG hookup wire. Could that be too long?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Your engine has an E-Unit. Here's a description of the 665.



> Standard features include; 4-6-4 wheel arrangement with detailed driving wheel hardware, Magnetraction, *three-position E-unit*, headlight, smoke, wire handrails plus an ornamental bell and whistle. The trailing truck was always produced with plastic side frames.


The track hookup wire length and size is fine.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Is the Lockon tight on the rails? Is the track and/or lockon rusty? Put the meter on the transformer terminals and the engine on the track and see of the transformer output is ~16 volts at maximum throttle. If the transformer output is OK but the track voltage is low, the problem is with the wiring and/or track connections. If the transformer output voltage drops, the engine has a problem. 

If the track is rusty, you are going to need to clean it with a ScotchBrite pad. Do not use sandpaper or steel wool. If the pins are rusty, clean them also. If the open ends of the track sections are rusty, you have a problem. Cleaning rust out of the holes is not easy. In order to make a good connection, I bend the rails on the pin end of the track sections. I bend the center rail to the right and the outside rail to the left so that the end of the pin is displaced about one pin diameter. This works much better than Lionel's method which makes it difficult to put the track sections together. 

BB


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

No Chatter, OK,
Then, I suggest running the engine directly from the transformer. 
Not knowing how long the track was set up I look for the obvious.
I always suggest reading the Basic O/027 manual found here.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ok, I've tried touching a wire to the roller and one to a wheel and I get a buzz, but no movement. I tried toggling the e-unit lever and it doesn't seem to do anything.

I put the train on the track, turned on the transformer to about 75% and checked the voltage at the transformer terminals. It reads about 4v and then sputters off and on, no train movement.

I'm attaching some pictures of the train with the shell off. Lots of gunk (smoke pellet stuff?). Any idea what my next step should be?


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

More pics:










This is the part that won't stay down unless the "Important..." clip is holding it on.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

The engine's light also does not light up when I have the transformer connected to the pickup and a side wheel.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ok - I think I found something wrong. The plunger at the bottom of the E-unit is off kilter:










Should I try to get it back level?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Look at the 2026 woes thread. The same problems. Choked smoke unit and broken e unit drum. The bulb socket is dirty . Pull the bulb and test it. Good pictures that what we needed to know. Get a good view of the e unit. When you order parts try the liquid smoke conversion kit too. There is a thread on that too! By erkenbrand.

You were lucky. That problem normally fries the motor, it looks fine!


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

Bulb works. So I need a whole e-unit? Or can I just replace the drum? How do you get the e-unit out of the frame? I'm searching the forums as I'm asking... just trying to get a grip of what I need to do.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

Nevermind - I got the e-unit out.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You may be able to simply fix the E-Unit, depends on exactly what happened. If the drum is just out of it's race, first step is to get it back in properly, then check the contacts to see if they're damaged.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

One of the tabs on the side of the drum is broken. Just called the local train store, they have parts!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This link was in the 2026 thread. Drum replacement.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

Well I got the drum installed. In the process, I managed to disconnect the wire that goes to the center rail collector roller. Where the heck does that get connected to? The rollers are clipped into a plastic piece (as seen in the first pic on post #11, top of this page).


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You look down into the motor in the space left by the e unit. On the backside of your plastic pickup is a rivet that has one end of the soldered wire. The other goes to the clump of solder on your e unit that is on the same side of the brushes.

You need to crimp the tabs to keep that pickup assembly in place. If that shorts out you will fry the motor.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

center of picture, where my red circle is barely visible, it almost looks like the wire has rubbed through.

Could it be shorting out on the frame?

check it out.


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

That spot is a small rust spot, no bare wire.

So I tested it this morning. I hooked up the wire that goes to the pickup just to my hot lead from the transformer and touched the other wire to the outside rail. Here's what happens.

O-22 switch lights up bright, no more flickering.
Engine light lights up bright
Smoke emits from smoker
Loud buzzing from motor, no movement.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sounds like the E-Unit is in neutral and not changing. Did you try manually indexing the E-unit?


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## lebshiff21 (Dec 20, 2010)

It works! I had to play with the e-unit lever, tap it, swear at it, pray a little. But it works!

Merry Christmas - I can't thank you guys enough for the help. I hope this thread comes in handy for the next guy that has an issue like this.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You might consider cleaning the solenoid for the E-Unit, as well as a tiny drop of oil on the pivot points, perhaps it's just hanging up. Since it requires gravity to drop, it doesn't have much "oomph" behind it.


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