# N Scale beginner



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Hello, 
I have cleared out an area that gives me a long run with a turn around to make a small model railroad. I want to do N scale since I already have one in the box. 
What I don't know is;
How does DCC work? I mean do I need a special transformer or any sort of computing capability? 

I see locomotives for sale that have sound. Does the sound come from the actual locomotive? Must be a pretty tiny speaker if so. 

How can I run two locomotives at once? Like one for a main line and one for a yard/switch engine? 

The goal here is to have one long mainline in a dog bone shaped circuit with an off shoot to make a small yard that a switch engine would operate in. 

Sorry for all the questions all at once. I'm just excited to get started. 
Thanks again for any responses I can get!

M


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

DCC is a little more expensive than DC. With DC, you control the speed of the locomotive by increasing or decreasing the power that goes to the track. Think of it like a dimmer switch on a light. You control the direction by changing polarity. Both of these are done through a DC transformer that usually has a dial for speed control (just like a dimmer switch) and a button or 2-way switch that changes the train direction (polarity) for you. With DC, you can have more than one train on the track, but they all will react the same way to however you manipulate the controls on the transformer. Turn up the speed, and all trains go faster. Change the direction, and all trains change direction. They say "with DC, you control the track. With DCC you control the trains."

With DCC, you will need to but a DCC controller, which will cost a little more (OK, maybe a lot more) than your plain Jane DC transformer. The DCC controller sends a consistent amount of AC voltage through the tracks, and doesn't change polarity (aka phase in AC lingo). The DCC controller sends instructions to the DCC decoder that is inside the locomotive. Instructions are specific to a particular locomotive, so you can tell locomotive #1 to go forward at speed 5, then tell locomotive #2 to go in reverse at speed 4.

There are several DCC manufacturers, with Digitrax and NCE being 2 of the more prevalent ones. I opted for the NCE PowerCab, which was one of the lesser expensive ones available at the time.

_IF_ the locomotive also has sound, those sounds are controlled by the DCC controller in the same way that you control the direction and speed. On the PowerCab, for example, there is a unique button to push for horn, another for Bell and another to light the headlight. Yes, the speaker is tucked into the locomotive (or possibly the tender if it's a steamer). Not all DCC locomotive have sound, but most do. It will be obvious if it does.

Generally, wiring for DCC is simpler than with DC. But for a simple layout, the wiring to your track is the same.

There are so many things you can do in a DCC environment that you can't do with DC. Or if you can, the wiring becomes complicated in DC as compared to DCC. But all that is really advanced stuff, that you may not care about.

You should tell us a little more about your plans for the layout. If you have any reverse loops, we can help more specifically with wiring.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Well, let's take a look at DCC for you.

DCC is entirely different from regular
DC..so YES.you need a DCC controller and DCC
decoders in your locos to use it. NO, you don't
need any computer capability. 

DCC Let's you run 2, 3 or more locos on
the same track at the same time each
one individually controlled. So YES, you can
have a train running continuously while you
operate a switcher in your yard.

Yes, you can have DCC Sound decoders in
your locos, but, like you said, it's all pretty
small...but it'll fit in most locos...

Above is some of the 'magic' of DCC. It may
sound complex but it's actually easier to
set up than DC. For the layout you describe
you would run a 2 wire 'bus' from your DCC controller
under the table. You would connect wires from your
track to the bus at two widely spaced places on
your layout. That's all you have to do.

Each loco will have a number address...most of
us use the road number on the loco. To run a
loco you simply enter it's number and go. You
can then punch in your switcher (for example)
and set it to work in your yard. It's like
changing channels with your TV remote.
Buttons on the controller will let you sound
the horn, ring the bell, and offer startup and
running engine noises in sound equipped locos.

When you buy your loco be sure it has
SOUND ON BOARD DCC. Or, if you
decide you can do without sound, make
sure it has DCC ON BOARD. The
term DCC READY, means it is a DC
loco and you would have to install
the DCC decoder or Sound Decoder.

One other caution...pay no attention to
the term 'DCC friendly' when you look at
turnouts or other track and accessories.
It is meaningless. Any turnout and any
track on the market will be fine for DCC.

Don


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You've gotten good advice so far. DCC is a separate (and in most people's opinion, far better) way of controlling your trains, not the least of which is that you have independent control over a large number of engines (which is determined by the amperage output of your DCC station; 2-3 amps is plenty for most home users).

Yes, the speakers are small -- but so are the speakers in your cell phone, and you get pretty good sound out of those, right? Sound DOES come from the locomotive, but for me, sound doesn't scale properly, so I choose to do without. But that's an individual preference.

There are several manufacturers and types of DCC systems out there. Mostly, the differences are a matter of features and implementation, not really capability. Some are designed for smartphones and / or tablets out of the box, some use an adapter if you want that type of controller. I would encourage you to explore features, but don't get suckered by "tech for tech's sake" -- smart phones / tablets are NOT any better a controlling trains (I would argue that they're worse), and fancy graphics don't help, either. It's best if you can actually try before you buy, but that's not always realistic. As long as you stick with the major brands (MRC, NCE, Digitrax, Roco, ECoS, Lenz, Digikeis), you will be fine.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Thanks so much for all the info!!
OK, so the eventual goal is to utilize some bench space in the shop. The bench is about 20 feet long and I thought I'd have a double track, (to and from) down the bench and I think I can accommodate a 3 foot square area for a curve to return at both ends.
Actually check that....it would be a 3 foot square at one end for a return curve and at the other end a 3 foot by probly 4 or 5 foot rectangle for the yard and the outer perimeter area would be the mainline curve to go back the other way.
So the mainline will be shaped some what like a dog bone.

What is a good shopping center online for buying the supplies I need? A track, a transformer or DCC equivalent of the transformer and cars and engines?

Engines: I have some equipment I bought about 4 years ago. I bought this from Online trains and I got it at the guy's store front in Tacoma. Not sure if its open anymore but;
Its a KATO brand loco and a replica of the EMD SD70ACe and says BNSF on it.
It has 6 wheels on each truck.
I could be mistaken but the guy said it was DCC compatible. Meaning I'd have to add a circuit board to it in the future.
But looking at the loco with reading glasses on, I can't see how to get it apart to add anything to it.
Is it true that this loco can be upgraded? If so, I'll have a slew of questions as to how. 

I also have an 8 car set of Kato gondola cars. I have some other different brands of used cars I pickup up too.

I have a basic set of track, once again Kato that has a couple of switch tracks in it and enough for a basic oval. It has the DC sort of transformer. 

So it appears, I need to know more about this loco and if its true I can upgrade it (and how to upgrade it)
I need track. A lot of it. 
And I need a controller for the whole show. 

Once again, that is a long reply and has a lot of questions. I apologize for that. 
But sure appreciate this forum and the information!

M


----------



## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

you can build a good dcc++ system for under $70 arduino style . just google it up . itss super easy to do and best part is its cheap but very good system.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Since you are just beginning in the world of trains and
have what seems to be a complete operating N scale
train, I would suggest that you start with that. Get the
track cleaned, see that the joiners that hold the sections
together are tight. Check the the loco wheels to make
sure the wheel treads are clean and bright. That is
necessary so the loco can smooth pick up power
from the track. Hook up
the DC power pack to an oval of track and see how 
your loco runs. 

After getting some experience, you could look around
any hobby shops locally or, if none exists, check
Amazon for a DCC System. The most popular
are Digitrax, NCE, MRC and Bachmann. You'll
want just a basic system. You won't need boosters
and other add ons. 

A decoder can be added to the loco you mention.
If it has a jack for an 8 pin plug you can buy
a decoder to plug in. If not you would have to
hand wire a decoder. It's an easy chore but you
would be working in tight N scale quarters.

Keep your DC power pack. You can use it
to power any turnouts you use or to power
lights.

Don


----------



## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

mkpatrick said:


> Hello,
> I have cleared out an area that gives me a long run with a turn around to make a small model railroad. I want to do N scale since I already have one in the box.
> What I don't know is;
> How does DCC work? I mean do I need a special transformer or any sort of computing capability?


DC (also called analog) works by sending power through the rails, controlling the speed by increasing or decreasing the voltage. All trains on the track respond to the controller commands. DCC uses an DC current that is modulated by changing the polarity back and forth rapidly to form a digital signal. This allows you to encode commands for a specific train instead of a general signal to all trains. The wikipedia article on DCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Command_Control) is a reasonable explanation of how this works, IMO.

While DCC is digital, you do not need any computing capability to do this other than a new command station similar to your DC power pack. The computing power is in the command station and then in the decoder in the locomotive. As you grow in your knowledge, you can use more computing power in various ways, up to and including automating your train operations. This is purely an option for you to decide on later though.



> I see locomotives for sale that have sound. Does the sound come from the actual locomotive? Must be a pretty tiny speaker if so.


Yes, the sound comes from a very small speaker that is mounted in the locomotive. Some companies, like Broadway Limited Imports, have the sounds turned on even when you are running the train in DC mode. DCC lets you have command control of the sounds and the lighting functions from your operating station.



> How can I run two locomotives at once? Like one for a main line and one for a yard/switch engine?


This is where DCC shines. Because each locomotive has an electronic address, you can start one moving how you want it, then switch the throttle to the other engine and control it. You can switch back and forth between them as often as needed. I will point out that switching back and forth with one station takes some practice but you can add throttles that let you ease this problem.

In fairness, you can also do this with DC instead of DCC. It takes a little more wiring work and an extra power pack, but it can be done. For example, in the requested layout, you could put some type of insulation between the rails in the yard and the rails for the main loop. You can connect the second power pack to the yard and have control of each locomotive. 

Now for the best news of this. You can start with the DC equipment that you have and upgrade to DCC late when you want to. I chose a Digitrax Zephyr DCS-52 for my DCC command station (there are other models from Digitrax and from other manufacturers like NCE and MRC). The Zephyr has some flaws (notably the way the throttle works when switching between locos) but it has a neat feature that lets you use your old DC power pack as a jump throttle. You connect the output wires from the power pack to the Zephyr and you can use it to control the speed and direction of one train. You have to use the Zephyr to assign the locomotive to the power pack and to control any of the DCC features like sound or lights. But this lets a second person control one train while you are controlling another. It also makes it much easier for you to control the two trains at the same time.


----------



## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

sid said:


> you can build a good dcc++ system for under $70 arduino style . just google it up . itss super easy to do and best part is its cheap but very good system.


It looks to me that this is super easy if you can write your own software.


----------



## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Not only for the OP’s clear understanding, but also a poke to the rest of us:
The abbreviations of DC and DCC can be confusing, even misleading, to some. 
I often wish we’d spell one out to more clearly differentiate them to new comers.

DC is short for Direct Current, as found in some common household appliances. The dimmer switch is a good analogy, except household power & lights are AC not DC but I won’t get technical, not yet anyway.

DCC is short for Digital Command Control…
which can be likened more to cable tv in that multiple signals _can_ travel through the rails all the time. Your cable receiver is getting all the signals all the time, but only pays attention to the channel you’ve selected. Decoders only pay attention to the signal commands that are “addressing them,” hence we assign numeric “addresses” to locomotives, we don’t assign “numbers” as a matter of terminology. Think of it in the sense of communicating with an individual… which is exactly the case. You address them first to get their attention (and others can disregard what follows), and then you tell them to reverse direction, etc. You are not altering polarity or voltage as with Direct Current.
Also, DCC is AC (Alternating Current) not Direct Current but decoders convert the square wave to DC for the motors’ sake. I believe Steve Rothstein made a typo above.


----------



## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

Is the Digital Command and Control (DCC) sending packets of data addressed to various decoders, which could be in locos, lights, etc., on an Alternating Current (AC) carrier wave in a similar way to the way other networks send and route packets of data addressed to devices? I am trying to understand this. I think the DCC systems must have software in them that wouldn't come with the suggested Arduino system for about $70. I think you would have to provide software to load onto the Arduino, and I don't know if DCC software is available apart from the hardware. I think there is a possibility that someone would buy Arduino only to find out there is no DCC in it. Arduino appears to me to be a computer hobbyist tool, and not a finished DCC product.


----------



## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

pmcgurin said:


> Is the Digital Command and Control (DCC) sending packets of data addressed to various decoders, which could be in locos, lights, etc., on an Alternating Current (AC) carrier wave in a similar way to the way other networks send and route packets of data addressed to devices? I am trying to understand this. I think the DCC systems must have software in them that wouldn't come with the suggested Arduino system for about $70. I think you would have to provide software to load onto the Arduino, and I don't know if DCC software is available apart from the hardware. I think there is a possibility that someone would buy Arduino only to find out there is no DCC in it. Arduino appears to me to be a computer hobbyist tool, and not a finished DCC product.


The software to control the Arduino is available for free on the internet. You can find more information on it at: Home · DccPlusPlus/BaseStation Wiki


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

pmcgurin said:


> It looks to me that this is super easy if you can write your own software.


Yeah, exactly... this would make the statement, "you don't need any computing ability to run DCC" absolutely false.

Now I'm not saying that DCC+ with Arduino is a bad thing, and based on my experience probably isn't too difficult to pick up, but to recommend it to someone who has already expressed misgivings about needing computer skills for DCC is really not helpful. It requires righting code and assembling non-standard hardware. No matter how easy that might seem to some who have the time, inclination, and aptitude / skill for it, it's not for everyone. Let's leave it in the niche where it belongs and not recommending to total newcomers who are still struggling to understand the basics.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mkpatrick said:


> Thanks so much for all the info!!
> OK, so the eventual goal is to utilize some bench space in the shop. The bench is about 20 feet long and I thought I'd have a double track, (to and from) down the bench and I think I can accommodate a 3 foot square area for a curve to return at both ends.
> Actually check that....it would be a 3 foot square at one end for a return curve and at the other end a 3 foot by probly 4 or 5 foot rectangle for the yard and the outer perimeter area would be the mainline curve to go back the other way.
> So the mainline will be shaped some what like a dog bone.
> ...


And it looks like everyone got so tied up in trying to prove that there are, in fact, DCC tools for computer types that no one actually answered your questions.

Here is my best shot:
1) For the size of your layout, whatever you can fit works. Even if you do have some kind of a loop, the longer the runs between the turnaround points, the more realistic your layout will look, and the more realistic operations will seem. Even though your space is basically rectangular, a long "dog bone" (narrow in the middle, wide at the ends) is a good option. You can also think of a "folded dog bone" in a C or L shape, that can further increase the length of our run. In N scale, a 3' area for turning is ample. The only thing to keep in mind is that the average person can only comfortably reach about 30", so a best practice is to make sure no part of your layout is farther from an aisle than that.

2) Good online suppliers: MB Klein (www.modeltrainstuff.com) and TrainWorld (www.trainworld.com) are my go-to places; there are lots of others. Walthers (www.walthers.com) is arguably the largest distributor of model railroading supplies in North America. Because they are a distributor, they always list for MSRP, so they're not always the best place to buy, but it's a good place to get a feel for what is available. And while they have a lot, they DON'T carry everything. Often a Google search is a good tool.

3) Your locomotive: EVERY locomotive is "DCC compatible" -- it's merely a question of how much work it is to convert. MOST locomotives manufactured in the last 15 years are at least "DCC Ready", which means various things to various people, but generally it means that the only modification you need to make is actually installing the decoder. Most of them have a socket which enables you to simply plug one in, which makes it about a 20 minute process. The only way to be sure is to open it up and have a look. The shell DOES come off; not owning any N scale myself, I can't tell you how to do it in this case, but I assure you it can be done. Just because you're using Kato track doesn't mean you have to stick with their locomotives in the future. Any N scale standard gauge model will work.

4) You will need lots of track. Track doesn't all need to be from the same manufacturer. It can all be made to work together, although often a fair bit of surgery is involved to make dissimilar types fit. This is especially true of the track with integrated roadbed. Since Kato is really the best roadbed track out there, I'd recommend just sticking with it. It is sold as sets, expansions, or individual blister packs of track pieces. Get what you need, and try to avoid overbuying.

5) Your DCC system: the DC controller that came with the Kato track will not be needed, except perhaps as an auxiliary power supply (for the turnouts, if nothing else). Get a starter set from a name-brand manufacturer (see my first post for a list). If you want to go REALLY basic, with limited functions, you can start with an MRC Prodigy Explorer or Bachmann EZ Command. These will get you started without a lot of the fancier options that come with bigger sets. And they're cheaper. The downside is that the Bachmann is a dead end; if you outgrow it, you'll have to replace it. For the MRC unit, you can use some of the components with their more full-featured systems. Or you can go with a starter set (MRC Prodigy Express2, NCE PowerCab, Digitrax Zephyr), which will give you all the available options, even though you might not chose to use them initially. Note that here, all your components DO have to be from the same manufacturer. They all work in the same way, and do the same things, but they are not compatible with each other.

Hope that helps.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> And it looks like everyone got so tied up in trying to prove that there are, in fact, DCC tools for computer types that no one actually answered your questions.
> 
> Here is my best shot:
> 1) For the size of your layout, whatever you can fit works. Even if you do have some kind of a loop, the longer the runs between the turnaround points, the more realistic your layout will look, and the more realistic operations will seem. Even though your space is basically rectangular, a long "dog bone" (narrow in the middle, wide at the ends) is a good option. You can also think of a "folded dog bone" in a C or L shape, that can further increase the length of our run. In N scale, a 3' area for turning is ample. The only thing to keep in mind is that the average person can only comfortably reach about 30", so a best practice is to make sure no part of your layout is farther from an aisle than that.
> ...


It helps immensely....

What I want in the locomotives is that the light can operate at full brightness despite what the throttle setting is. Also I like the train horn sounds and bell sounds. 
I will look at Youtube to see if there is a video on how to open up my current locomotive. I don't want to break anything.
Eventually, I want to make an elevated line above my main line but first things first, a yard, a mainline and two locomotives with assorted cars. 
Also on the eventual scope, I will be getting into building scale models of other things. Planes, tanks and such. I like painting details. So I'll want to paint rail cars to look realistic. Graffiti and all. But that is far in the future. I have an RC tank that I painted rust stains on the road wheels and exhaust stains. Some people in RC do not like painting but I do. 

Right now I want to get something going on, in that space I have, BEFORE that space becomes appropriated by junk and clutter. Junk and clutter is like blackberry vines, cottonwood trees or kudzu. It just appears and then takes over. If I have the train operating there, I can still use the bench to do things like hobbies but clutter will be less likely to happen for fear of ruining a small fragile model railroad. 

So it appears I need to buy a DCC controller, meaning the device that controls the loco's. In DC that would be the transformer but in DCC world, is that called a controller? (hopefully they come with instructions), a DCC decoder? for the loco I have.....
and track. 
I'll need a lot of switches and a lot of main line. (I'm not up on terminology but I learn fast)

I seem to remember the guy in Tacoma telling me Kato has long sections of track that can be flexed for a curve. Not sure if y'all recommend that. But for a 20 foot run, the little straight sections might not be ideal. 

Thanks again!
M


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

pmcgurin said:


> It looks to me that this is super easy if you can write your own software.


I'm not a software writing type of guy. My background is more oriented towards a hardware technician. I can operate software tools but writing my own is not something I can do.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Just looking at track on Trainworld. I see Kato flexible track. 
It says, "*KATO #21-000 N FLEXIBLE TRACK 808MM (31 13/16") 10 PCS"*
Does that mean there is 10 sections of 31 13/16" size N scale track there? 

If so, can I get some tips on attaching that to road bed and then to the wooden bench? How is that done to keep things stable?


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

mkpatrick said:


> But for a 20 foot run, the little straight sections might not be ideal.


The 9 inch pieces will work fine for a 20 foot run….when fitted together properly, they will be as straight as you can get it….they were made to join to make any length….


----------



## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

mkpatrick said:


> Just looking at track on Trainworld. I see Kato flexible track.
> It says, "*KATO #21-000 N FLEXIBLE TRACK 808MM (31 13/16") 10 PCS"*
> Does that mean there is 10 sections of 31 13/16" size N scale track there?
> 
> If so, can I get some tips on attaching that to road bed and then to the wooden bench? How is that done to keep things stable?


Yes, that blurb says there are 10 pieces of Kato flex track that are just over 31" long.

Kato makes both flex track and road bed track (they call it unitrack). I have never used their flex track or seen it in the store yet. To use flex track (any brand) you have to have some type of roadbed to lay it on, most commonly cork. The cork is glued to the table surface (or base that you are using), and the track is then attached to the cork (either glued or nailed down).

Roadbed track has the track already attached to a plastic base road bed and is just glued or nailed down to the table. It has one advantage of being replaceable easily. You can lay it on the table without gluing it down, and just pick it up to make changes.

I have only been modeling for about a year and a half. I use Kato Unitrack exclusively so far. I am in the process of building my second layout after tearing the first down to get the track and reuse it. This layout is a U shape around the walls of an 8x16 shed. I honestly do not see a problem with using unitrack for the four 16 foot long legs (each side of the U has a 30" square for a turnaround at the end). The true downfall to this is that it is expensive. I ordered $300 worth of track today after using the track from the first layout.

And there are a lot of YouTube videos on how to upgrade to dcc. I suggest searching for The DCC Guy. I found his videos helpful. I think to get that Kato locomotive apart starts with prying the bottom of the sides away from the frame and then the body should slide up and off.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Steve Rothstein said:


> Yes, that blurb says there are 10 pieces of Kato flex track that are just over 31" long.
> 
> Kato makes both flex track and road bed track (they call it unitrack). I have never used their flex track or seen it in the store yet. To use flex track (any brand) you have to have some type of roadbed to lay it on, most commonly cork. The cork is glued to the table surface (or base that you are using), and the track is then attached to the cork (either glued or nailed down).
> 
> ...


Ok very cool! I'll look at Youtube. 
The track I have that came in the set is Unitrack. Will that mate up with the flex track and is there a road bed I can buy that would match up in height to the Unitrack? 
That flex track seemed affordable.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Old_Hobo said:


> The 9 inch pieces will work fine for a 20 foot run….when fitted together properly, they will be as straight as you can get it….they were made to join to make any length….


Just seemed like a lot of 9" sections would add up in cost fast.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mkpatrick said:


> It helps immensely....
> 
> What I want in the locomotives is that the light can operate at full brightness despite what the throttle setting is. Also I like the train horn sounds and bell sounds.
> I will look at Youtube to see if there is a video on how to open up my current locomotive. I don't want to break anything.
> ...


Lights, bells, etc: Reviewing DC vs DCC -- DC works by sending a variable voltage to the track. EVERTHING on the track gets that same voltage and behaves accordingly. Your loco runs at a certain speed, lights are on (usually direction of travel), and sounds are more or less randomized, although sometimes tied to changes in the DC voltage. DCC, on the other hand, supplies a constant voltage (roughly 14V) to the track all the time. The little microchip (called a decoder) inside of your locomotive determines how much of that voltage to send to the motor (throtte control), lights, etc. Sounds do require a sound decoder and speaker installed in the loco (or the tender, on a steam loco). Installing these is a little more involved than just plugging in a decoder, but it's certainly doable for the average modeler with practice. In short, if you want to take full advantage of sounds and independent lighting and throttle control, really your only option is DCC. If you are gentle and patient, you aren't at much risk of breaking anything.

Elevated track -- if it's an independent loop, that's one thing (can use the same DCC power bus, though), but if it's going to connect to the rest of your track, you will need to mindful of slope. 3% is really the max that can practically be used (you can go steeper, but with a lot of limitations). 3% means that you need 33-1/3" of horizontal run to gain 1" of height, and the same distance on the other side to get back down again. Gentler grades need correspondingly longer distances. This can eat up layout space very quickly.

Painting & detail: big topics. There is a whole section on the forum devoted to it.

Terminology for DCC stuff is not always standardized; some call it a controller, some call it a command station. In some (MRC, Digitrax), the hand held units (called cabs or throttles) are separate devices from a central black box; on others (NCE) one of the throttles IS the command station. Doesn't really matter to operations, although if you want to MOVE the throttle from one place to another while you follow the train, having your command station in the throttle can be limiting. A DC device is actually called a power pack -- it's a transformer, a rheostat, and a rectifier all rolled into one. The DCC unit also functions as a transformer (usually, the wall wart) and a rectifier, but functions at a constant voltage, so no rheostat is necessary. The decoder chip handles that. So most of us would say that you need a DCC set. Yes, they come with instructions -- some much clearer than others, but there are enough users of the various systems around that can generally find help for any of them if you need it. Decoders are purchased separately; often pre-installed by the locomotive manufacturer.

Also on the subject of terminology -- for hobby purposes, we refer to the track pieces that allow you to change a train's heading as "turnouts" to distinguish them from electrical switches. 

Others have already addressed the flex track question, so nothing for me to add there.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

So this product.....
KATO #21-000 N FLEXIBLE TRACK 808MM (31 13/16") 10 PCS
What sort of road bed would I buy for that? 
I think if I follow advice I'm getting here I should set up everything as a DC set up and use my DC power pack, then convert to DCC after I've gotten the basics down. 
But anyway, that product I list above is affordable. Is there a road bed that will allow me to use my Kato Unitrack with the track I list above?


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

What does Code 40, 55, 65, 70 and 80 mean? (when shopping for track?


----------



## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

mkpatrick said:


> What does Code 40, 55, 65, 70 and 80 mean? (when shopping for track?


The code number is the height of the track in thousandths of an inch. So, code 55 is .055 inches tall. The factors to consider when picking track are that all of your track is the same code, that the track height is tall enough to not cause problems when the train wheels run on it, and that it looks realistic. While I think the first is the most important, it is possible to mix code heights as long as you shim up the various heights so that the tops of the rails are all even at the joints between sections. That is more advanced than I would be willing to try as a beginner, so I recommend sticking with all one code track.

If you use the common heights for N scale (Kato unitrack is code 80), you should not have a problem with any modern cars running on it. I have been told that there are older cars where the flange on the wheel is larger than standard and these would hit ties or points and cause derailments if the code was too low.

The last part is how realistic the height of the track looks compared to prototypical track. This is really a personal judgement call. I use unitrack, with the roadbed built in, so you can tell I am not that critical on the realism of it. Others are much more interested in the scale quality and do worry about this.


And to answer your question right before this one, Kato also sells a roadbed cork that is the same price as the flex track. You would not use roadbed on the unitrack, just on the additional flex track pieces. Kato also sells adapters to allow the flex track to mate to unitrack, which would be very handy for turnouts (though it might be a little expensive - three adapters for each turnout would eat up the savings of using the flew track). I would probably use a different brand turnout that is not roadbed track, something like Pico turnouts. The Kato flex track page is at N-Gauge UNITRACK - KATO USA : Precision Railroad Models.

If you use the flex track for the runs, do yourself a favor and buy a tool to make sure the curves all stay in the same radius you intend them to be. I haven't tried this because I cannot draw a straight line with a drafting table and T-square, let alone a proper curved line, but I saw this on Walthers site and it might help: Radius Ruler. I don't think the trains will run right if the curves have changing radii in them.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Steve Rothstein said:


> The code number is the height of the track in thousandths of an inch. So, code 55 is .055 inches tall. The factors to consider when picking track are that all of your track is the same code, that the track height is tall enough to not cause problems when the train wheels run on it, and that it looks realistic. While I think the first is the most important, it is possible to mix code heights as long as you shim up the various heights so that the tops of the rails are all even at the joints between sections. That is more advanced than I would be willing to try as a beginner, so I recommend sticking with all one code track.
> 
> If you use the common heights for N scale (Kato unitrack is code 80), you should not have a problem with any modern cars running on it. I have been told that there are older cars where the flange on the wheel is larger than standard and these would hit ties or points and cause derailments if the code was too low.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the help on this!!
I liked the idea of the flex track because it just seemed like those long runs would be cheaper to do. 
On the KATO USA site, does the flex track they sell recommend the road bed that would go with that?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Use cork or foam. Both are popular. I have always used cork. I was thinking of using fooam for my current layout, but I have never used it as it wasn't around for previous layouts. I stuck with what I knew best and it works as advertised and hadn't changed in 30+ years.

A track manufacturer isn't going to recommend a roadbed material unless they also make it.


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

You are correct in that long lengths of flex track are usually lest expensive than a few straight piece of sectional track (sectional track is all the "not flex" pieces). Flex track also allows you to get more creative with a track plan as you can bend the track into just about any shape (within reason.). So things like easing into a curve rather than going from straight to a 45 degree curve instantly, a piece of flex track can be bent into a gradual curve (called easement) so the locomotive doesn't appear to be jerked into a curve.

I have no experience with Kato track, and I believe their flex track is a relatively new product. I also believe there are transition pieces to go from Unitrak to flex.

Unitrack has the plastic roadbed built in. The flex track does not, so you will need something like cork roadbed under the Flex Track to bring it up to the same height as the Unitrack. The cork roadbed will need to be the right thickness to "shim" the flex track up to the same level as the Unitrack. I would assume that the cork Kato sells would be perfect.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

OK I ordered track, road bed, nails and some Kato transition pieces. 
All code 80.


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Here is the loco I have with the shell off of it.
Is this something that can be made into DCC without too much technical 'know-how'?
Or is it easier to put this on craigslist and order one already equipped?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You may have forgotten something...


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Trying to upload photo and it just says 100% and then sits there


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

How about a photo server like Imgur and then post a link here?


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Here is the photo


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

Finally! 
How would a decoder be installed there? Would this require soldering?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Yes. That would be considered a 'hard wire' installation as there is no decoder header to have a decoder plugged into. It's not that difficult but you need soldering skills and a few electronic smarts.


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

You are in luck!

Buy one of these Digitrax decoders. It drops right in.

The board on the picture is the one that was in the Kato SD70ACE that I bought about a year or so ago. You can see that yours is the same as the one I took out of my Kato. It's basically just a light board.

The decoder that comes in the package is the same overall shape, but it has circuit boards attached that are the DCC decoders. Just pop out the light board and replace it with the decoder.

It won't have sound, but it will be converted to DCC.

If you Google the Digitrax item never you will find YouTube videos on how easy it is to swap.









I know it says SD40-2 bit it's the same chassis as all their SD70ACE too.

Good luck! This worked for me!


----------



## mkpatrick (Nov 25, 2017)

What are ditch lights and mars lights?


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Ditch lights face forward but are located toward the bottom corners, near the ditches. Yours probably is a set of clear plastic tubes that act as a fiber optic that runs light from the LED down to where the ditch lights are.

Mars lights pulsate.


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Here is a video.






This video shows installing the Digitrax DN163K1C decoder into a Kato SD70ace. The loco in the vide is even BNSF like yours . The video then goes into the installation of a different decoder that also has sound. I did not install a sound board, just the Digitrax DCC decoder I referred to above. Installing a speaker involves milling the frame... I'm not confident enough to try that.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mkpatrick said:


> OK I ordered track, road bed, nails and some Kato transition pieces.
> All code 80.


Nails.... maybe. That's not always the best solution. Often a good adhesive is a better bet. Many of us use latex caulk -- it's flexible, helps dampen sound, and, for me, at least, much less fiddly to use.

What kind of roadbed did you order, and what will you be fastening the track and roadbed to?


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

little late to the party, but I brought cookies! (information that hasn't yet been covered) what you have gotten so far is good though. First the issue of sound board install. Since N scale is growing very quickly in popularity and Kato is one of the leading manufacturers of quality, accurately detailed N scale locos, the aftermarket offers more options than for any other N scale brands. The space inside an N scale loco is tight, especially when needing room for a speaker and keep alive may require some modifications to make the room. This is often described as "milling" since this is the most often machine used, but a basic milling setup can be cobbled up from a dremel tool with drill press attachment or even freehanded if careful. In Kato diesels the speaker often can be fitted into or under the fuel tank (the large rectangular plastic part underneath between the trucks. Some Kato locos come with the speaker cavity already carved out, and/or a bonus speaker already inside! Now for my first cookie served: There is a website run by a guy who calls himself the "Spook" who has actually owned, run and written extended reviews of ALL N. American prototype locos ever manufactured in N scale, and tells all the Good, Bad, and UGLY! about each one of them. His info is unbiased and reliable. His website is here: www.spookshow.net.


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Cookie #2: you will need a base to fasten your track to. Common bases for N scale layouts are 1.* plywood* Unfortunately, The quality of plywood has gone drastically downhill while the price has rocketed out of sight. !/2" is heavy enough, but a multilayered cabinet grade hardwood ply without major voids that is flat and will stay that way is on the north side of 100.00 per 4 x 8' sheet! The less expensive stuff at your local building supply outlet is better suited for making firewood, airplane propellers or boats. 2. *Hollow core door blanks*. These have also jumped up in price, but since the inside is corrugated cardboard rather than wood, they are still affordable and relatively flat and stable. They are limited in sizes, typically 18, 24, 30, 32, or 36 x 80" but fortunately fall in the right range for many N scale layouts. They can be cut down and or extended with outriggers or portions of another door by someone with average woodworking skills to create custom layout tables. 3.*Extruded polystyrene foam (EPS) board.* Unfortunately the land around us is seldom pool table flat in real life, so a layout track applied directly to plywood or door blanks is unnaturally flat. A material for layout support that is gaining much popularity is EPS foam insulation board that is sold for building insulation at building supply stores. It is a dense fine grained foam board available in 4'x8' sheets like plywood in thicknesses from 1/4" to 3" thick or more. It is fairly ridged and sturdy in thicknesses from 1" to 3". The 2" is self supporting for N scale with just a simple 1/4" hardboard frame to protect the edges. The 1" can be enclosed or laid on top an eggcrate style support of 1"x3" wood. The color of the foam is typically pink, blue or tan/yellow depending on brand. (*NOT* _the white stuff that crumbles away in little balls_, there are better uses for that stuff.) The great things about the foam is it's light weight, resistance to warping, price, and ease of work in making it into realistic support/scenery! The track/roadbed can be glued directly to the foam, and differences in ground contour can be created with sharp knives, saws, or a hot wire cutter to cut into it for rivers, lakes, valleys or ditches, or it can be glued in layers to produce raised areas, hills or mountains (that we all like!) Covered with paper mache, sculpta mold, or plaster, that is then carved, shaped and painted to represent terrain anyplace you want your layout to be located.There are a ton of good you-tube videos on the use of EPS foam for layout supports and scenery.


----------



## Djsfantasi (Mar 19, 2019)

mkpatrick said:


> I'm not a software writing type of guy. My background is more oriented towards a hardware technician. I can operate software tools but writing my own is not something I can do.


You don’t have to write any software when using the Arduino DCC solution. The software has already been written for you and is FREE! Someone has already provided the link to download it. Uploading it to the Arduino is but a few mouse clicks away.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

There is also open grid and cookie-cutter sub-roadbed used for many model railroads. This is not as popular as it once was because many would rather put up with the mess of carving, cutting, and grinding on foam, and emptying your wife's pantry of canned goods to weight down drying track and roadbed material rather than cutting plywood for sub-roadbed, nailing it to the sub-roadbed and getting on with the task of laying track.

I am probably one of the very few here to still use this method of layout construction. It is very simple to cut and support the plywood sub-roadbed to the exact grades and curves of your track plan design. You can use wire screen, hardware cloth, cardboard strips, etc, to form the land and cover that with Plaster cloth or Sculptimold directly depending upon the sub-surface used. You will likely use one or the other , if not both of the latter over foam as well. 

It looks like this if you have never seen it before:

















And the above turns into this:


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

mkpatrick said:


> OK I ordered track, road bed, nails and some Kato transition pieces.
> All code 80.


Let us know how things progress for you, especially once you start putting together all the pieces!


----------



## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

cost of lumber these days is plain crazy .


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

This is not a cheap hobby, like any other worthwhile hobby it's going to cost some money.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Djsfantasi said:


> You don’t have to write any software when using the Arduino DCC solution. The software has already been written for you and is FREE! Someone has already provided the link to download it. Uploading it to the Arduino is but a few mouse clicks away.


It still requires a lot more computer savvy and comfortability than someone who says "I'm not a computer guy" is likely to have. As easy as you may find it, it's not for everyone. And this is one of those cases.


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Nuther cookie: There is another substrate worth considering. It is not used much in the states but is used more in Europe since lumber prices have been higher there longer. It is used here mostly for sign boards by outdoor sign companies since it is lightweight, weather and warp proof (more about this in a minute) easily cut with knife or saw. It is a plastic foam board product, still light weight like common foam board from the craft shop but much more rigid than foam board, and even most plywoods. The inner foam core is very dense and ridged, the surface plys are resin impregnated wood board waterproof and strong enough to resist denting even from a hammer blow. It comes in a range of thicknesses 3/16" -1" and overall sizes up to 4'x8' in white or black. from several suppliers. The 1/4" and thicker is guaranteed not to warp even when used outdoors. The 1/4" is plenty ridged and strong enough to support an N scale layout, even if cookie cut track support system is used. This product goes by the trade name GATORFOAM. (google: gatorfoam board). 
*DISCLAIMER*: I have no vested interest in Gatorfoam, I'm just a satisfied user.
I buy my Gatorfoam board from Uline.com where a pack of 3 4'x8' sheets 1/2" thick is 107. per sheet ( cheaper than 1/2" void free cabinet grade plywood) plus shipping by Motorfreight because of size. The most economical size is 32"x 40" that comes in an 3 pack (1/2" thick) for 40.00 a sheet and can be shipped inexpensively by UPS or FedX. Uline has warehouses all over the US and will ship from the closest one.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

That is interesting. I have not seen or read about that material being used across four European forums where I am a member.

Most serious fine scale builders I am in contact with still use the tried and true cookie-cutter method of birch plywood over a 1x3 or 4 framework. Many like building NEM club modules for transporting to meets for very large display layouts.


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

The Europeans use some foam board that isn't easily found here, or are similar but go by other brand names, I used the trade name for the American made version. I am using the 3/16" gatorfoam board to build strong but very lightweight 5 and 3 turn helixes on my N scale layout. A couple other similar materials more difficult to find are Ultraboard and Sintra. The European builds I've seen are modules and dioramas using an unnamed I believe PVC or styrene foam board with self formed skins, usually black in color. It is only supported around the edges for wiring clearance.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I use Gatorfoam (which is easy to find using Google) as a solid foundation for structures. I think it would be prohibitively expensive to use as a base for an entire layout.


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Guess you haven't priced plywood lately.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

scenicsRme said:


> Guess you haven't priced plywood lately.


I guess that would be addressing my comment. Yes, in fact, I have. $96 for a 4x8 sheet of 1/2" AC plywood at Shagbark Lumber and Farm Supply. That works out to $3 a square foot. Gatorfoam: a 32"x40" sheet of 1/2" foam at Blick's Art Supply is $72, or almost $9 a square foot, nearly 3 times as expensive, even in the current market. What am I missing?


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

@ Uline.com gatorfoam 1/2" 4x8 sheets in pk of 3 107.00/sheet. 1/2" 32x40" pack of 3 sheets = 40.00 /sheet. If you go look at that AC ply If it's like what the lumberyards around here is selling at that price, it's 3ply warped, better suited for airplane propellers and full of large voids and delaminations. 1/2" 7 ply cabinet birch with minimal voids is >150.00/sheet, void free 9 ply is higher yet near 200.00/sheet, Gatorfoam is guaranteed against warping, 14 the weight, much easier to work with, strong enough to be self supporting. Gatorfoam gets my vote.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

scenicsRme said:


> @ Uline.com gatorfoam 1/2" 4x8 sheets in pk of 3 107.00/sheet. 1/2" 32x40" pack of 3 sheets = 40.00 /sheet. If you go look at that AC ply If it's like what the lumberyards around here is selling at that price, it's 3ply warped, better suited for airplane propellers and full of large voids and delaminations. 1/2" 7 ply cabinet birch with minimal voids is >150.00/sheet, void free 9 ply is higher yet near 200.00/sheet, Gatorfoam is guaranteed against warping, 14 the weight, much easier to work with, strong enough to be self supporting. Gatorfoam gets my vote.


You're creating artificial scenarios to suit your argument. No, the $96 AC plywood at my local lumber yard is NOT junk. Even postulating that yours is, no one in his right mind is going to make benchwork out of cabinet-grade lumber. And, of course, as people often do when quoting on-line prices, this scenario conveniently overlooks shipping charges. ULine ships by motor freight. That ain't cheap either, especially for LTT (less than truckload) consignments. Last thing I had shipped by motor freight cost $80 -- which in this case would almost double the cost per sheet..

And of course, a 4x8 sheets of 2" insulating foamboard is $42 at my local home depot, making it the clear winner in my book. And it's also plenty strong enough and dimensionally stable.


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

I use whatever is best suited for the purpose. 2" EPS insulating foam for my lower llevel since it is all unsceniced flat staging, for the upper level, since there is a lot of elevation change, a combo of 1 and 2" foam, cookie cut gatorfoam supported by hot wire cut EPS foam, 2 helixes all gatorfoam. The support is all 3/4x3-1/2" L girder ripped from older pre covid void free cabinet ply I had in storage. The 3/4"x1" L's ripped from clear poplar with 3/4 x 2" intermediate stringers ripped from same poplar or ply. Read the recent reviews of the construction plywood from Lowes and Home Depot, so full of large voids and delaminations it falls apart when you cut it up, it's about totally useless for cookie cutter builds, not much good for more than firewood. I can appreciate that you are satisfied with old school, and you may be lucky enough to have a local supplier of quality ply at good prices, I don't. I just offered Gatorfoam as another lesser known alternative substrate, it might not be for you. I could argue that local sales tax is almost as high as freight shipping (80.00 / 3 pack of 1/2" 4'x8'= 26.00 / sheet = 133.00 still competitive. 4'x8' sheets go by freight because of size, not weight. Uline ships the 32x 40 packs by UPS or Fed ex ground, my shipping on 2 packs was < 20.00 and no tax. Let's agree to disagree on the use of Gatorfoam, Others can make their own decisions, at least they have been informed of another alternative to consider.


----------



## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

im buying a lumber mill $3500 bucks and i have all the flippin lumber i want and to sell excess at incredibly high prices so i can pay for all this crap 😁witch should pay for its self in a few cuts of one tree😁😂 I also have a big lake in the middle of the desert if any one is interested 🤣😂😁😃


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I'm glad I still have nearly three full sheets of 1/2 AC 4x8, and 1x3 and 1x4 stocked away and bought before COVID.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

scenicsRme said:


> I use whatever is best suited for the purpose. 2" EPS insulating foam for my lower llevel since it is all unsceniced flat staging, for the upper level, since there is a lot of elevation change, a combo of 1 and 2" foam, cookie cut gatorfoam supported by hot wire cut EPS foam, 2 helixes all gatorfoam. The support is all 3/4x3-1/2" L girder ripped from older pre covid void free cabinet ply I had in storage. The 3/4"x1" L's ripped from clear poplar with 3/4 x 2" intermediate stringers ripped from same poplar or ply. Read the recent reviews of the construction plywood from Lowes and Home Depot, so full of large voids and delaminations it falls apart when you cut it up, it's about totally useless for cookie cutter builds, not much good for more than firewood. I can appreciate that you are satisfied with old school, and you may be lucky enough to have a local supplier of quality ply at good prices, I don't. I just offered Gatorfoam as another lesser known alternative substrate, it might not be for you. I could argue that local sales tax is almost as high as freight shipping (80.00 / 3 pack of 1/2" 4'x8'= 26.00 / sheet = 133.00 still competitive. 4'x8' sheets go by freight because of size, not weight. Uline ships the 32x 40 packs by UPS or Fed ex ground, my shipping on 2 packs was < 20.00 and no tax. Let's agree to disagree on the use of Gatorfoam, Others can make their own decisions, at least they have been informed of another alternative to consider.


As far as a source of quality ply, or any decent lumber, it's pretty well known among people who use it that you either go to a real lumber yard and get quality product, or you go to a big-box home improvement place prepared to sort through entire stacks of lumber just to find a few acceptable pieces. That said, there is a tendency by many to overbuild benchwork, and there are lots of places where a lower quality piece wouldn't do any harm.

But yes, I think the point has been made: I'm not disagreeing with the use of Gatorfoam. It's certainly a good option. It's just an expensive one -- regardless of the price of other options. I happen to agree with economists that the current high prices for forest products is a bubble, not a permanent condition. And sales tax is a wash for me; CT requires it to be paid on all purchases made by CT residents from inside the state of CT (IOW, online orders shipped to your residence), and that's true of most states (although enforcement for on-line orders varies).


----------

