# Lionel 221 assistance



## mskeen59 (Mar 28, 2013)

Hello! I am new to this forum, relatively new to model railroading, and hoping to tap into the experience and knowledge of this group.

I recently purchased a Lionel 221 locomotive on eBay, and when it arrived, I found that the seller's description of "*complete and all there*" actually meant "*missing the e-unit, no wiring whatsoever, and contains a motor to a completely different model*".

While I have re-wired the motor and got it running, it does not fit the shell very well, nor does it allow me to install the driving wheel hardware. 

Can someone please tell me if the 221 shares the same motor with a more common model of locomotive, as I've been unsuccessful thus far in locating a motor specifically designated for the 221.

Thank you in advance for any help you can offer!

Michael


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am not sure but a 1666 prewar is close. Here is a link for Olsens

I do not think any other engines use an 221M-1 motor.

Post a picture of it maybe we can figure it out.

I have a few 1666's but no 211's.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You mean you have no 221's T?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Yes, 221's, whatever.

They are beauts!:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Michael,

I have two 221's, one of which I fully stripped / refinished / rewired recently. Have a peek at this thread (including the pics), and ping us back with specific questions ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3483

Can you post some pics of your loco / issues, so that we can see more clearly what you're talking about?

We'll help you out as much as we can ...

TJ


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## mskeen59 (Mar 28, 2013)

Thank you all for responding so quickly! 

After reading those responses, I re-read my original post and realized I wasn't very clear about what I need.

The motor that came with my 221 is simply _not_ going to work. (Still no e-unit, runs, but is very noisy, great force is necessary to insert it into the shell, and the wheel configuration is not compatible with the 221 driving gear...) 

So, essentially, I have an excellent shell, the correct pilot and rear trucks, driving hardware, drawbar, etc. for a 221, but need a working motor.

I just don't *which* motor! I agree that the prewar 1666 looks close, but I was hoping there was some sort of reference for the "interchangeability" of various Lionel locomotive motors... 

I also spoke with Sharon at Olsen's, and, while extremely helpful, she was unsure of what I would need.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You are left with trial and error. I did get a 1666 into a 2018. I had to cut off the front tabs and reverse the motor. I did this early on in my career. It is not worth the effort. Just find a 221 with a bad shell and get that. The 221 is uncommon which makes your job harder.

TJ has one he may have more promising information. The connection points are the key and I have no idea what they are on the 221 unless you start posting pictures .

The more detail you present the more the responses you will get. Heck I haven't seen too much of a 221 anyway. As you figured out there is no simple solution it has to be worked out. 

I had the same problem with a 1689e the motor was switched. In that case it was easier to find. They are more common and a few types share the motor.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

T-man, good advice, I've never seen a 221. But the pics of it and the pre war 1666 are similar. But unless someone tried to put the prewar 1666 engine in the 221, I wouldn't chance it. The screws might not match up, linkage etc.. If I come across a 221 cheap I'll let you know!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Michael,

Please post pics of the motor and shell that you have ... with the motor removed from the shell, please.

Below are some pics of what a 221 motor SHOULD look like. Note that this is one of the fewer 6-wheel motors that has pickup SHOES rather than pickup rollers.

I've also shown a 1668 motor, which is identical, I think (???).

Note that the brush plate holder on these motors (as used in different locos) comes in different types. The "cans" with coil springs as shown above, but also via brass "paper clip style springs". If you find a motor with the latter, you can interchange the brush holder (and brushes/springs) for the can style

I believe the early 2026 (1948-1949) shares this same motor, too, or one very, very close.

Regards,

TJ

*221 MOTOR -- 3 PICS*





























*1668 MOTOR -- 2 PICS*


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

What holds the motor in the shell?
Just the 2 trucks screws?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

For the 1666, one top screw though the shell on the back and the front has two tabs that line up to holes. Both are alike. The drivers are different. The center one of the 221 has more of a protrusion. The 221 is large, I wonder if the disc drivers are larger?

Nice pics TJ!:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Good question, Ed.

Actually, it's just one screw, through the top of the shell, in front, into a tapped cross-rod on the front of the motor.

The back of the motor has a notch in each upper sideplate (left, right). This notch engages onto a cross-bar that's a permanent part of the 221 shell. You can see it in my pic.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Oops ... my pics above are a bit large ... sorry for the inconvenience.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

T-man are you talking about the drive rods spacer things on the wheel? I hope! On my 1666 the part that connects all three wheels is under a spacer that sticks out about the same. On tj's (with the new pic) it's attached around that spacer( is that part of the wheel tj?). The 2026 engine also looks the same. But on the 2026 the motor looks to be reversed, screw on the front instead putting the brushes on the opposite side a d the e unit in the back. And tj those two motors you posted look identical as do the 2026 and 1666. Except for the drive rod thing.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm just noticing that ... the "stud" on the middle drive wheel on the 221 motor is longer than that on the 1668 motor. (Good call, T-Man ... I hadn't realized that before.)

On the 221, that "stud" (that's integral with the cast wheel) gets covered with a cylindrical nickel spacer ring that keeps the inner side rod rod (that connects the 3 wheels) and the outer connecting rod (going to the crosshead) apart from each other. There's also a valve gear assembly "eccentric crank" that fits on the stud ... all held in place by a hex head screw.

On the 1668, the setup is simpler ... side rod between the wheels and valve gear ... no crosshead, no spacer. Hence, the shorter wheel stud here.

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I was pushing for the 2026 to work as I am bidding on a lot that has one in it, but upon further inspection the newer 2026 has a completely different motor not at all compatible with the 221, it attaches to the frame in a totally different way! I thought the difference in motors was the pu roller assembly only. The older 2026 still looks compatible. I tryed


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes, it's the older 2026 motor (with shoes, not rollers) that I was referring to.


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## mskeen59 (Mar 28, 2013)

You guys are awesome! 

When I first posted my plea for help, I wondered if anyone would even bother to reply... 

You guys have certainly gone above and beyond the call of duty! Thank you!

I apologize for not posting pictures (mostly because I've yet to learn how), but also because I've been busy with a brand new granddaughter. 

I've read through your responses, and based on what you've written, did some more research, including comparing my own early 2026 loco motor, which does indeed look like a very close match. 

However, because of the smoke generator lever (and time constraints), I haven't yet tried to fit it to my 221 shell. 

I've come to the conclusion that the current motor in my 221 is out of a later model 2026, based upon the configuration of the gear plate, the lack of a stud on the center drive wheels, using instead the odd-shaped drive rod screws (part #2036-18), the larger diameter of the center drive wheels, etc.

I did try to replace those center drive wheels with center drive wheels from an early 2026, but that's when I discovered the difference in size, as the 2026 geared drive wheel was too small to engage the other gears.

But, I *did* locate a 221M-1 motor late this afternoon after calling "Just Trains", and it is on its way!

I will pull the early 2026 motor to compare it to the 221 motor as soon as it arrives and let you know what I find. I also will learn how to post pictures by then so I can post the two side-by-side.

Thank you again for all of your help! I greatly appreciate it, and I'm excited to have become a member of this forum...

Michael


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Glad to know you found a replacement, as for thanks it's all the other guys. I didn't know a thing about trains until I read these guys posts on this fourm. ( I still don't know much!) Congratulations on your new granddaughter, you must be so proud! ( she will love looking at the trains soon). Have fun! And don't forget to update here. 

Tj sorry I did not see the year, I got caught up comparing motors and looking through my junk. My mistake. I did not realize the motors were different, I thought the difference was superficial. I'm learning?! I hope!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

All good news! Keep us posted, Michael. And congrats on the new granddaughter / future train-runner!

TJ


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