# 300 and 302 need help, I wanna be an s scaler!



## rdmtgm

hi all
A recent purchase of a craigs list "attic Box" has left me with my First american flyer trains. a 300 and a 302 along with an auto unloader with a red racecar, a gondola, and a small frame with wheels I think may have been the caboose. I also got some track and transformers. As near as I can figure these are from 1952.(link couplers with black weights etc.) Now I am very excited to add an 
A F section to my layout. The problem is that these are (of coarse!) different than the o scale lionel and marx that I am used to and I can not get the engines to run. I hooked up a couple of sections of track and the transformer, and cleaned up the trains and track and gave them a try. Both engines act the same. The lights come on and I can hear them buz, Turning the transformer on and off causes the e- unit to click, but they make no attempt to move. I have taken them apart and checked the brushes and cleaned the commutators and made sure everything moves freely but still nothing. One thing I noticed was that I cannot turn the engines over by moving the wheels. However if I turn the motor with my finger everything moves smoothly. Is this typical with AF engines or a sign of a problem? I hope someone can help because I would love to run these.


----------



## Timboy

Hi,

It's not called an "e-unit". That is a Lionel name for a Lionel product. If it is American Flyer, then the correct name is reverse unit. Since the reverse unit is clicking, it may be as simple as a broken wire at a solder joint. You will have to open up the tender to take a look at the reverse unit. If that is all it is, then problem solved. If it still doesn't run, then it could have been badly re-wired somewhere along the way. Here is a link to loco wiring diagrams. You can download this and print it off. I keep a copy on a clipboard, along with other info that is useful to me. 

http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic10.htm

Here is a link to an online copy of a common Flyer repair manual:

http://myflyertrains.org/gallery/GilbertFactoryManual

You can determine if the problem lies with-in the reverse unit or the motor by removing the male end of the jack panel from the female end at the rear of the loco and jumping the leads. Here is a link to a diagram for that:

http://www.trainweb.org/s-trains/diagram/jumper.gif

Lastly, here is a link to my blog where you may find a lot of "Tips, Tricks & Techniques" to help you:

http://americanflyertrainsarethebest.blogspot.com/

Regards,
Timboy, A Member Of The Flyer Nation


----------



## Reckers

rdmtgm said:


> hi all
> A recent purchase of a craigs list "attic Box" has left me with my First american flyer trains. a 300 and a 302 along with an auto unloader with a red racecar, a gondola, and a small frame with wheels I think may have been the caboose. I also got some track and transformers. As near as I can figure these are from 1952.(link couplers with black weights etc.) Now I am very excited to add an
> A F section to my layout. The problem is that these are (of coarse!) different than the o scale lionel and marx that I am used to and I can not get the engines to run. I hooked up a couple of sections of track and the transformer, and cleaned up the trains and track and gave them a try. Both engines act the same. The lights come on and I can hear them buz, Turning the transformer on and off causes the e- unit to click, but they make no attempt to move. I have taken them apart and checked the brushes and cleaned the commutators and made sure everything moves freely but still nothing. One thing I noticed was that I cannot turn the engines over by moving the wheels. However if I turn the motor with my finger everything moves smoothly. Is this typical with AF engines or a sign of a problem? I hope someone can help because I would love to run these.




Welcome to S scale! Another thing to look at is the small sets of copper "fingers" and the copper facing on the drum in the reversing unit. (Just to aggravate Timboy, I'm gonna call it the E-unit in this post as it's shorter to type!). The drum has to be clean and you may want to dress any scratches in it with a fine file to leave it smooth, for a good connection. I know you checked the brushese, but the power has to flow to the motor brushes: where the fingers touch the drum may be the problem. Often the fingers' tips are dirty or worn through. Replacements can be acquired from ebay, Portline Hobby shop, or any Local Hobby Shop (LHS, on this site) that deals in American Flyer.

Best wishes with your new babies, and keep in touch---this is a great site for discussion as you work through problems. Don't be shy about bringing it up over and over as you run into issues and need input.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## rdmtgm

Thanks to both of you! You have given me several things to try. I will let you know how it works out and I am sure I will be back begging for more help.
thanks RD


----------



## Timboy

Reckers:

Sounds like you are in the latter stages of step #3; anger and bargaining. When you get to step #7, please be so considerate as to let all the members of the Flyer Nation know, so that collectively - we can move on.

Compassionately, 
Timboy


----------



## Reckers

Timboy,

1. Hi, my name is Reckers, and I run S scale.
2. I have trouble remembering other scales don't have it as good as S scalers do.
3. I resolve to be more sensitive to their feelings, as they are still evolving.
4. I'll call it an E-unit every chance I get, just to p*ss TIMBOY off!:laugh:


----------



## rdmtgm

Timboy
Tried the jumper idea on the 302 and I am definitely getting power to the brushes but it isnt turning. On to the wiring diagram. The 300 has only two wires from the tender so next up with it is just cleaning the "r E verse unit" and I will try again.
RD


----------



## Reckers

rdmtgm said:


> Timboy
> Tried the jumper idea on the 302 and I am definitely getting power to the brushes but it isnt turning. On to the wiring diagram. The 300 has only two wires from the tender so next up with it is just cleaning the "r E verse unit" and I will try again.
> RD


If you know you're getting power to the brushes, it may be time to take a look at the gears: the older units were packed with a grease that hardens over the years. There should be a little pan cover on the bottom with two screws: removing this gives access to the gears and you can evaluate their condition without fear of stuff spilling out. My guess is you will find the problem is two problems: 1. Hardened grease that needs to be picked out, but we deal with that later, and 2. Carbon buildup on the ends of the brushes and the face of the armature. This is the three copper plates the brushes press against when the motor is assembled. Carbon builds up between the two and on both, effectively insulating them and depriving you of power.


----------



## Reckers

Service manual for repairing that non E-unit....

http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic23.htm


----------



## Reckers

You need these...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2567

http://myflyertrains.org/gallery/GilbertFactoryManual


----------



## Stillakid

You didn't mention whether the lamp came on. Test the bulb. If it's good, but doesn't come on, you might have an issue with the wiring leading up to the smoke chamber and bulb.


----------



## flyernut

Well, I was going to add my 2 cents, but it sounds like everyone has the problems diagnosed. I always start at the tender and work forward. The 302 is a snap when it comes time to fix it.Remove the fingers, both top and bottom, and take out the drum. I use a piece of scotch-brite on it. Get it clean and put it back. Replace fingers if necessary, and check to see all 4 fingers are making contact with the drum. LIGHTLY oil the drum nubs, and the pivot point of the plunger arm. Make sure all solder joints are good. I usually just remove all the wiring and replace it all with 22 gauge flex wire, black. Remove the "guts" of the loco by unscrewing the smokestack FIRST, then all the other screws. I believe you're going to find the problem is with the brushes and/or armature. Re-surface the armature by putting the armature in a drill press, and spinning it at a low speed. Use emery cloth or 2000 grade sandpaper and hold it against the armature face while it's spinning. This will make the surface flat again, as there will probably be grooves in the face from the engine traveling forwards all the time.Make sure you clean the 3 little grooves on the face also. Clean up the chassis with alcohol or something similar, relube, check your wiring, and you should be good to go.If ya can't get it running, send it to me and I'll fix it for ya.You're probably going to have trouble with the smoke unit once you get it running, but that's another thread,lol. You're in good hands here.


----------



## flyernut

Another thing, you're right about the wheels on a AF steamer. You can't turn them by hand, by they will turn by turning the motor armature. That's how they're suppose to be.


----------



## Reckers

Flyernut, that was a very good write-up on the process. I'm sure your contribution will be a lot of help for our new S scale brother!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## flyernut

I could have gotten it better, but I was in a rush.. I hoped I helped him and not confused him... And thanks for the compliment!!...Loren


----------



## rdmtgm

Wow I am getting a lot of good information. Thanks to you all as I am sure I have come to the right place. Just to let everyone know where I am at.
I have cleaned the armature and brushes, and pulled off the plate on the bottom and cleaned the teeth on the gears. When I turn the armature by hand everything seems to move free and easy. With the jumper installed I applied power And there was no movement. I tried to turn the armature by hand while under power and could feel resistance and see some sparking at the brushes but it still did not attempt to run. I am wondering if the outer "magnet' is not getting power ? Is there only one way to install that or could it be reversed? I think i need to do a lot of printing to get all the wiring diagrams.


----------



## flyernut

rdmtgm said:


> Wow I am getting a lot of good information. Thanks to you all as I am sure I have come to the right place. Just to let everyone know where I am at.
> I have cleaned the armature and brushes, and pulled off the plate on the bottom and cleaned the teeth on the gears. When I turn the armature by hand everything seems to move free and easy. With the jumper installed I applied power And there was no movement. I tried to turn the armature by hand while under power and could feel resistance and see some sparking at the brushes but it still did not attempt to run. I am wondering if the outer "magnet' is not getting power ? Is there only one way to install that or could it be reversed? I think i need to do a lot of printing to get all the wiring diagrams.


Use the tender , not jumpers.I've only seen 1 other "magnet" go bad, and that was due to a broken wire.


----------



## rdmtgm

well I have some signs of life. I cleaned the drum and fingers in the reverse unit and it seems to be operating correctly. The engine tried to run occasionally turning over a few times as I applied the juice but would not just run. Tried a quick clean of the armature on the drill press but I can still see some grooves so I will have to spend some more time on it. After looking at the brushes again they were clean but do not look flat. There is a local train show here a week from Sunday so I think I will try to pick up some new ones. I am making progress though. Flyernut I wish I had read your post before taking the engine apart, I managed to break the red tube off of the smoke unit. hopefully a little super glue.
thanks again
RD


----------



## flyernut

rdmtgm said:


> well I have some signs of life. I cleaned the drum and fingers in the reverse unit and it seems to be operating correctly. The engine tried to run occasionally turning over a few times as I applied the juice but would not just run. Tried a quick clean of the armature on the drill press but I can still see some grooves so I will have to spend some more time on it. After looking at the brushes again they were clean but do not look flat. There is a local train show here a week from Sunday so I think I will try to pick up some new ones. I am making progress though. Flyernut I wish I had read your post before taking the engine apart, I managed to break the red tube off of the smoke unit. hopefully a little super glue.
> thanks again
> RD


Lol, and that's the reason you take the stack off first. And don't ask me how I know,lol. The red smoke stacks are available almost everywhere, and you should find one at that show, along with brushes. Get new springs while you're at it.On occasion, I've had to "tickle" the armature a bit after putting it all back together, so don't fret too much if you replace everything and it still doesn't work. Just turn the armature over by hand a few times with the power OFF.After replacing everything, it should take right off. That's why they're called flyers.It would appear your solder connections are ok as the engine tried to run. I still think all it needs is a good clean-up with re-faced armature, brushes, and springs. Let me know what happens.


----------



## Reckers

rdmtgm, your engine is an AC rather than DC; that makes getting things electrically-backwards almost impossible to do. More often, a mistake in reassembly results in "It just won't go together that way" and you look for what you have in wrong. I'm not sure how you are testing it, but may I offer this suggestion: put it on it's back between two books, belly-up, and use some wires with alligator clips to connect your transformer to the pickup wheels on the tender. This completes the full circuit, but eliminates track in trying to find the problem. Replacing the springs and brushes is an excellent idea: tired springs or too-short brushes can cause poor operation. Save the old ones, though---spare parts are great friends to have around.

If the motor is turning at all, the next step is to let it run for a while. This warming-up requirement is characteristic of American Flyers, and they get faster as the parts warm up, grease and oil seep into friction points, carbon gets scraped away and things just generally settle into place.

Best wishes,


----------



## rdmtgm

went to the train show today. It was definitely NOT the place for AF parts. I did get a good web site for parts, probably already got it from the people on here. So now I am going to order brushes and springs and I will let everyone what happens after that. By the way, What are some suggestions for cleaning up the plastic engine shells? 
Thanks
RD


----------



## Reckers

You won't find a lot of parts at train shows, particularly AF parts: no one wants to lug parts cabinets to shows, IMHO. That said, you can meet the people in your area who stockpile those parts at home, though. Look for business cards from guys who deal in intact AF pieces, particularly the older stuff.
As for the cleaning, it depends on what's wrong with them. First step is to not damage the item. The shells are pretty durable---I use Windex or 409, Windex for light stuff and 409 for greasy grime. Spray it down well and let the goop do it's stuff, then rinse off or just wipe down with Q-tips and paper towels or soft cloth. Try to keep any soap or chemical sprays away from the numbers, letters or logos.

If you find you have a fine, whitish stuff on the parts that looks like mold or mildew, it's not. That is a chemical mold-release agent that migrates to the surface, over time. Go over it with a hair-dryer set on hot and it should slowly evaporate into the heavens.


----------



## flyernut

rdmtgm said:


> went to the train show today. It was definitely NOT the place for AF parts. I did get a good web site for parts, probably already got it from the people on here. So now I am going to order brushes and springs and I will let everyone what happens after that. By the way, What are some suggestions for cleaning up the plastic engine shells?
> Thanks
> RD


I use a soft toothbrush and some mild detergent, such as Ivory Snow dish washing detergent. Just mix up a diluted solution of it and go at it. When it's all dry and clean, give it a couple of blasts of Pledge. It will make the shell as shiny and as new. I spray on a good coat, then I use a 2 inch paintbrush to spread it evenly over the surface, using the bristles to get the polish into the smallest cracks/crevasses. Then just buff it up with a old t-shirt.


----------



## tjcruiser

I'm not that S savvy, but doesn't Port Lines often have a big table/display with AF/S parts at big shows ... at least a few of the ones I've seen in MA ???

Port Lines is the "biggie" S parts supplier, right ???

TJ


----------



## rdmtgm

Thanks, The pledge sounds like a good way to get some shine back, and they will smell good too! Port lines is the website I was given at the show. It looks real good for getting the parts I need at reasonable prices. probably to far here in Ohio for them to come.


----------



## Stillakid

This is also a good source...............

http://www.hobbysurplus.com/americanflyerparts.asp


----------



## flyernut

Portlines is a great place to buy your parts from. I get mine through them 99% of the time, if I can't get it locally. Hobby Surplus is ok also. I used to use RFG but they're kind of iffy as to having parts on hand.


----------



## rdmtgm

Sorry I left everyone hanging on the thread, Really just got my parts a couple of weeks ago. My success is somewhat limited. The new springs and brushes along with cleaning the reverse unit worked for the 300. I now have a running Flyer! However the 302 is still vexing me. I just bought another field, motor, and brush block on ebay and am working on installing.


----------



## rdmtgm

I was very happy with portlines, Very reasonable prices and they had everything I needed. One more question, The 300 runs smoothly both forward and reverse and pulls the cars well, but it is quite slow. Are these normally a slower running engine or is there something else I should look for?
RD


----------



## flyernut

rdmtgm said:


> I was very happy with portlines, Very reasonable prices and they had everything I needed. One more question, The 300 runs smoothly both forward and reverse and pulls the cars well, but it is quite slow. Are these normally a slower running engine or is there something else I should look for?
> RD


The engine should be peppy. I have a few engines that no matter what I do, I just can't get them to "fly" off the track in the corners,lol. I don't know the answer..


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

RD --
As far as finding AF parts at shows, it is true that you won't find AF parts vendors often. However, I have attended a few shows in my area (Allentown, PA and ones in New Jersey)that do offer AF parts, usually the same seller is at multiple shows through the season/year. I always keep a list of items I need and update it for each upcoming show. If I know in advance that a particular seller, or even another seller may be there, I go with my list ready to buy my parts. In other cases where I attend a new show I have never been to, I still take my list in anticipation of running into a Flyer parts vendor. Sometimes I am rewarded and sometimes I am disappointed. It's a chance I take each time. But for some reason, even without parts vendors, I never come home from a show empty-handed. Guess it's my love of Flyers that causes that. So if a show is upcoming in your area, have your list handy and hope someone is there. If they are, inquire the other shows they will attend. I have dealt with Portlines previously and he is a good source. Also I sent a PM about your progress and will be waiting for the successful re-firing of the 302. Don't hesitate to ask questions of the other "S" guys here. They have offered a wealth of experience in only the short time I have been on the MTF. Good Luck.


----------



## Gilbert Guy

*AF parts*

Doug Peck from Portlines sets up at a few of the eastern based shows. His web site will list the shows he will be attending. While he doesn't take his entire inventory he brings a good supply of the basic parts. His on-line store has always had what I was looking for with fast delivery.


----------



## Aflyer

RD,
This is pretty basic, but one thing I didn't see anyone offer up is cleaning the grooves in the commutator after you polish it up.
The grooves can be cleaned with a wooden toothpick and this might affect your speed issue.
George


----------



## flyernut

Aflyer said:


> RD,
> This is pretty basic, but one thing I didn't see anyone offer up is cleaning the grooves in the commutator after you polish it up.
> The grooves can be cleaned with a wooden toothpick and this might affect your speed issue.
> George


See post 12


----------

