# 0 versus 027 Track and Switch Question



## k2ldc10 (Nov 28, 2010)

Okay, I have bunch of 027 track that works. Probably would be better once I give it a cleaning. I also have a pair of 1122 remote switches, but they aren't working very well. My MPC era diesel and my 1654 postware steam locomotive derail going through them (ironically, it says non-derailing on the box).

My question - I'd like to get some switches that work. I'm also in the market for a heavier magnetraction locomotive, and my son wants me to build the layout with an elevated section. So my question is, should I invest in some 0 guage track and buy the appropriate switches? I'm still learning, but my understanding is the 0 guage would be better for the bigger, heavier locomotives that have more pulling power. The local hobby shop has used 0 guage track for $0.75 a piece, which seems reasonable and is in good condition.

I welcome your thoughts and opinions! Thanks.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

k2ldc10 said:


> Okay, I have bunch of 027 track that works. Probably would be better once I give it a cleaning. I also have a pair of 1122 remote switches, but they aren't working very well. My MPC era diesel and my 1654 postware steam locomotive derail going through them (ironically, it says non-derailing on the box).
> 
> My question - I'd like to get some switches that work. I'm also in the market for a heavier magnetraction locomotive, and my son wants me to build the layout with an elevated section. So my question is, should I invest in some 0 guage track and buy the appropriate switches? I'm still learning, but my understanding is the 0 guage would be better for the bigger, heavier locomotives that have more pulling power. The local hobby shop has used 0 guage track for $0.75 a piece, which seems reasonable and is in good condition.
> 
> ...



The non derailing means that the switches will flip automatically as the train approaches them. In case you forgot to flip them. Some switches you HAVE to flip them yourself.

O track will handle the bigger trains as they can't go through the curve of the o/27 switch though they should go through the straight of the o/27 just fine.

I have o/27 that pull great and some that don't, it depends on what engine it is.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, all the O-27 switches I've seen are pretty junky, so for that reason alone I'd consider standard O-31.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Somewhat off topic, but several of my (lightweight) prewar tinplate locos have trouble going though my O27 switches. The wheels on the pilot and trailing trucks bounce around a bit, inevitably causing a short as they bump into adjacent rails in way of the frog at the track intersection. Brand new switches, too. Not a happy camper on my end.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have the same issue with a number of cars and at least one engine on the O-27 switches. However, they run just fine across the 022 switches, so I can't really consider O-27 seriously. I've tried two different types, one was a pair of 5121/5122 switches new out of the box, but they do the same thing on the 1122 switches.


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## k2ldc10 (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I just picked up a bunch of used O gauge track. now I need to find switches.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've been buying 022 switches in lots on eBay and overhauling them. If you shop around, you can usually find lots of "unknown" 022 switches for pretty low cost. My experience has been even the "good" switches need to be overhauled, so might as well save the money.


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## k2ldc10 (Nov 28, 2010)

eBay, here I come! I guess overhauling these switches isn't too big a deal? Which bring me to another question. I'm sure there's some good reference material out there for locomotive and accessory maintenance and repair. Can you recommend something?

Big Ed - thanks for explaining what non-derailing means. I think I noticed that once or twice but didn't make the connection.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

K2,

For older (say postwar) Lionel O, I'd highly recommend grabbing a copy of Greenberg's repair manual ... essentially a compilation of dozens of Lionel service sheets:

http://www.amazon.com/Greenbergs-Re...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291611398&sr=1-2

But better than that, though ... poke around the forum here ... I have, and I'm amazed how much I've learned through the coaching of so many great guys.

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I believe *servoguy* has an excellent post on overhaul of 022 switches. I probably take an average of 1/2 hour a switch to get about 90% of the ones I get into shape.


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## Blk69 (Feb 23, 2010)

I thought all switches will give your some derailments (0-27 or 0). I have both and old 1122 and 70's auto switching O-27 switches and every once and awhile I get derailment. It is usually the light front wheels on my steam engines that cause the problems.

Are you really having less problems with the older O stuff?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The post is 022/711 switch operating pblms at http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/95.aspx. It is a long post and I think it is very thorough. I have 86 022 switches, and I think I found every problem with them after restoring this many switches. Even "new, in the box" switches needed help, primarily with the crimp connections. 

I also wrote a post on cutting down 022 switches to allow sidings and yards to be closer together. I cut down six 042 (manual O gauge switches) and then wired them to work with 022 switch motors. This allowed me to do some neat things I couldn't do with standard switches. 

I have been considering another mod to get rid of the pesky fiber pins. I am going to try it the next time I set up a layout. I am going to cut the rail with the fiber pin about 1 inch from the end and install a steel pin. As long as the rail doesn't come loose, it should work OK. If the rail doesn't stay tight, I will suitably modify it so it does. I have no idea why Lionel didn't do this from the git-go. Some of the 1122 switches are made this way.

Bruce Baker


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm interested in your post about cutting down O22 switches, that sounds like something I may have a desire to do. I've seen O42 switches cheap, so the raw materials are there.

The toughest problem I've faced on the O22 switches is when the idiots ship them with the lantern hat on and it breaks the lantern holder, there's no easy way to bond those pieces. I've finally figured out a fix for that, since I had three of them with that problem. I drill out the stud and then solder it from the bottom with the good holder. Works great and I rescued three switches. The 5132/33 switches are particularly apt to have this happen with the cheap plastic lantern holder.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you read my post, you will find that I have used the same process, and I didn't remove the bracket that holds the lamp socket. I even managed to use some plastic lantern holders and solder the rivet back in place, but the metal holders are better. The metal holders are die cast zinc, so you can forget about gluing them back together. 

BTW, there is information in my post re the 5132/5133 switches on adjusting the lamp holder bracket so that the switch doesn't bind up. The tolerances on the 5132/5133 are not as tight as on the old 022 switches. 

Bruce Baker


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have noticed that the newer switches are more "sloppy". Since the soldering process would probably melt the plastic, I replace them with the metal holders. I didn't remove the lamp holder either, I just wedge the holder in place and flip it over.I have to keep remembering that these were intended to be toys. 

I tried JB-Weld on the holder, and it looked good for a bit, but it broke. That's when I decided to forget fixing the holder and try replacing them. I still have a couple of older switch motors with holders, so if I get any more broken ones... 

I guess I should read through your post in detail, I normally just solve the issues as I come to them. The one issue I'm not sure I'll solve is the mangled contacts. I guess the same technique would work, but right now I have extra working motor boards.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

These may be toys, but they obviously are some of the best toys ever made. The contacts in the 022 switches are silver plated!! If you buy some 042 switches, you can salvage the lantern holders from the manual controllers. I have bought the 042 switches for as little as $2. My going price for 022 switches complete is $7.50. I have bought many of them for $4 that may or may not have had the lantern and controller. I found a dealer that had a lot of them, and no one was buying, so I bought them cheap.
Bruce Baker


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, there was a long post on the trains forum about contact erosion in the 022 switches. I run my switches on the 20 volt fixed voltage from my KW, and after more than a year of use, there is no discernible contact erosion. Since the contacts are switching AC I wouldn't expect much or any contact erosion. The newer switches have a serious problem with contact erosion, and they are way too pricey for me, and so I am sticking with the post war 022s. 
Bruce Baker


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm sticking to the 022 switches as well. I've picked up a few of the newer ones, and the quality leaves a lot to be desired!

I'd love to find complete switches for $4, the last lot I picked up was $40 shipped, and that was for 5 switches. As it turns out, all are good after a rebuild, $8/switch makes me happy. The downside is many of them come without lanterns, so I have to pick those up after the fact. I figure I'm plunking down $10-12 per switch for my rescue projects. I probably don't have the contacts you do for the old switches, so I have to make do with what I can find, mostly on eBay. I skip the "like new" ads and go for the bulk lots of "switch parts".


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## k2ldc10 (Nov 28, 2010)

You guys are a wealth of information! I'm so glad I found this site. Nice to see that a lot of this stuff is built well and serviceable.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, *servoguy* is the pro, I'm a "Johnny come lately" to the train scene. I had them when I was a kid, and I like to think I'm pretty adept mechanically, I'm a fast learner. 

In truth, the 022 switches are pretty simple and very repairable, which makes them a good choice.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Gunrunner, if you are getting complete switches for $10-12, that isn't too bad. The switches cost $11 in 1950!! That was a lot of money in those days. 
Bruce Baker


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't feel I'm getting taken, OTOH, I'd like to find someone with an attic full of stuff that just wants to unload it.


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## k2ldc10 (Nov 28, 2010)

Geez, the shipping rates some of these guys on ebay are charging on switches is ridiculous.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The 027 switches can be difficult . I had one out of six that had problems.The best thing to do is replace it. I have both 027 and the 022. The 027 were bought by the boxfull. The 022 off ebay lots. Your steam engine will have trouble with the 022 switch. If it doesn't go fast enough it will stall. If the e unit is on reverse will kick in. I could be wrong but be aware of it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

k2ldc10 said:


> Geez, the shipping rates some of these guys on ebay are charging on switches is ridiculous.


I always base my bid on the shipping and bid amount. People that have ridiculous shipping I just pass by. It's an old scam, they make the profit on the shipping, which allows them to have a cheap starting bid.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> The 027 switches can be difficult . I had one out of six that had problems.The best thing to do is replace it. I have both 027 and the 022. The 027 were bought by the boxfull. The 022 off ebay lots. Your steam engine will have trouble with the 022 switch. If it doesn't go fast enough it will stall. If the e unit is on reverse will kick in. I could be wrong but be aware of it.


You're not wrong, at least for several of my engines. I've had problems with several types of O27 switches in just that fashion. I also have issues with cars apparently shorting as they go over the switch, even though they're not derailed. 

I'm doing a layout, and I considered O27 for the compactness, but I've decided to do standard O because of the lousy O27 equipment.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Trouble with my O27 switches, too, as stated above. Stalls ... unintended reverse cycles, front or rear truck shorts. 



T-Man said:


> Your steam engine will have trouble with the *022* switch. If it doesn't go fast enough it will stall. If the e unit is on reverse will kick in. I could be wrong but be aware of it.


T-Man ... did you really mean O22 there, or meant to say O27 ???

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I hope he was talking 027 switches, I'd hate to think the pile of 022 switches I have just acquired and overhauled will give me trouble!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

IMHO, the O-27 switches are not well engineered. I posted a thread in the trains.com forum telling how to restore the O-27 switches. Because they are soft plastic, the crimp electrical connections always go bad and should be soldered. They are also more difficult to work on than the 022 switches because the bottom cover doesn't come off unless you drill out the rivets. Also, I can't get a 736 loco to go through them. O-31 track works so much better that I wouldn't think of going back to O-27. 

Bruce Baker


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to agree. I see my engines and cars go through the 022 switches without a wiggle, but for many combinations, I see sparks as the cars and engine go across the 027 switches of any flavor.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

tjcruiser said:


> Trouble with my O27 switches, too, as stated above. Stalls ... unintended reverse cycles, front or rear truck shorts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes the 027 with mud on my face.
In defense of the 027, I got mine for 3 bucks a piece. So when I use them and one is bad I just switch the switch out, like a bad piece of track. You do have to clean and use them. They need to be used and just about anything out of storage needs a break in period to be dependable. 
The 022 is a great switch.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The 022 is a better design, and as important is pretty much repairable if something is wrong. None of the 027 switches lend themselves to being fixed without a lot of problems.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

OK ... OK ... I get it ...

So who wants to trade me their 022 switches for my 027 switches ??? 

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll be glad to trade you some NIB 027 switches for your old and moldy 022 switches.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I traded two 022 switches for two 6-23011 switches. The 6-23011 switches don't work right out of the box. The RH switch has a tolerance problem and the switch points don't close. I modify them by soldering a strip of brass on the outer rail that is thick enough to force the wheel to the right so it doesn't pick the points. The brass strip extends beyond the end of the rail on the switch. I taper the brass strip so it picks up the flange. I also think there may be a durability problem with these switches. I doubt we will see many of them around in 60 years. Also, I run my 022s using the fixed voltage plug and the 20 volt tap on the KW. The 6-23011 switches don't like 20 volts, but work better on 14 volts, so that means I have to use a variable output on the transformer for them. 
Bruce Baker


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I just [posted comments on my O27 / 1122 switch tuning and repair here] ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5513


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