# Total newbie here. Looking for whatever advice/input you've got.



## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

I am really starting this thread as a jumping off point. As I said, I am new to this. Really new... like a couple days. Not even sure what I want to do, really... other than build a nice train set layout. 

Here's where I am: I bought a Athearn Iron Horse set to start and a 4x8' sheet of plywood. I put down as much track as I could fit in a continuous double loop consisting of a figure 8 and an outer loop. I am pretty much set on the 4x8' size due to home size constraints. Not really sure what to tackle next. 

Basically, I am looking for high level guidance on what mistakes to look out for, what major things to do in what order... etc. Example: First layout the track. Then build roads, then tunnels and hills, etc. :thumbsup:

Thanks in advance for taking the time. 

Here's a picture of my setup so far:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hi, and welcome to the hobby! Obviously, a thorough response to your post would fill a book.... and many authors have already done so. And, you will find that there are as many opinions on what to do and how to do it as there are modelers. You'll probably get better and more focused advice by asking more specific questions. So here is my opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.

My first piece of advice, unfortunately, would be to glue your wallet shut and not buy anything before you've done some thinking and planning. Too late on that one! Also, I'd like to correct a common misconception: the 4x8 layout. This configuration occupies 32 square feet, but if you allow for a 30" aisle all around, it's actually occupying 9'x13', or 117 square feet. There are a lot of options available to you in that much space.

Next up, consider what you want to actually DO with your layout. This is a highly personal thing, and there is no one right answer for everyone. If all you need from your layout is to watch your train run, then you're pretty much there. For many, though, this gets boring after a while, and they start wanting those trains to actually do something... or more correctly, they want to be able to do something with their trains rather than just throw a switch every now and again and vary the route a little. There is also the question of realism. Options here run the range from "bare plywood looks good" to "I want clowns and dinosaurs and UFO's" to "if it wasn't on the prototype, it doesn't go near my layout, and it had better not be one scale inch to big, either". Most of us are somewhere in the middle -- realistic with a "close enough" fudge factor, although there's nothing inherently wrong with any of those approaches. The final consideration is whether this will be your "best and final" layout project, or whether this one is a learning tool, which you will later throw out in favor of something better. 

This may sound like a lot of silly stuff, but it will actually make a huge difference. Take tunnels, for instance. Real railroads think long and hard before building a tunnel, whereas many novice modelers eagerly plunk one down in the middle of more or less flat terrain. And whether you intend to keep this layout around for the long haul can make a big difference in how you should construct benchwork, for instance.

So, as you say, you're "not even sure what [you] want to do. really", my first advice would be to think about it a bit, make a choice, and go for it. You can always redo later if it proves to be a bad choice. Once we know where you're going, it's easier to give you advice on how to proceed.

And my final bit of advice, for now, is two rules: 1) There is no right or wrong way to build or operate a layout, only what works for you and makes you happy, and 2) There is no rush -- this is a lifelong hobby.


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

Thanks for the excellent response! I definitely know I want to build a "realistic" type place. A few houses, businesses, etc... But you make a good point about the trains doing something... Maybe I can break my loops apart and have a switch... I think the building part is the real thrill for me. I like making stuff. I love the design part. I love the pulling it apart and trying something new. 

Oh, and as far as my 4x8' layout... I think it'll end up as a table on casters that can move around. 


Thanks again!


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

4 X 8 on casters is what I'm building on. I started building a layout last year, but found I was doing a lot wrong, and have torn it down to start over. I suggest you remove the track and lay down a layer or two of foam insulation board to be your ground base. In my experience it comes in thicknesses ranging from ½" to 2". With the foam, you can carve it with various tools, and can form rivers, ditches, and other features that would be below your track level. Then you can take more foam and build stacks which can be carved into hills, mountains, and cuts through hills. It makes scenery fun and easy to make. That's a good place to start, in my opinion.


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

Fire21 said:


> 4 X 8 on casters is what I'm building on. I started building a layout last year, but found I was doing a lot wrong, and have torn it down to start over. I suggest you remove the track and lay down a layer or two of foam insulation board to be your ground base. In my experience it comes in thicknesses ranging from ½" to 2". With the foam, you can carve it with various tools, and can form rivers, ditches, and other features that would be below your track level. Then you can take more foam and build stacks which can be carved into hills, mountains, and cuts through hills. It makes scenery fun and easy to make. That's a good place to start, in my opinion.


EXCELLENT idea! Thank you. 

This is exactly the stuff I am looking for... I don't want to paint myself into the proverbial corner and then look back and wish I just did some basic stuff!

I imagine the foam is nice to be able to stick things in too... like telephone poles, stop signs, etc.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

FYI, you might want to build a siding or 2.....some place to park some cars.....?


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

Old_Hobo said:


> FYI, you might want to build a siding or 2.....some place to park some cars.....?


Indeed. I probably would will want that! 

Also, I see your signature quote... looks like I already misused the term and learned something new! 

:thumbsup:


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Looking at this from the perspective of "what would I add in this limited space", I can see a couple options that would add some interest to how your train runs...

First off, as mentioned above, sidings. You have a little room inside the straight line along to bottom of the picture, you could probably slip in two parallel sidings there and give yourself a place to switch out cars.

Second, if you were to connect the two tracks at the top-right corner, you would create a reverse-loop. This suddenly changes how you wire your layout and requires breaking it up into multiple blocks where you can control the polarity, but it also means you are no longer limited to running in a single direction. The only disadvantage would be that with only one crossover, your reverse-loop is single-directional -- meaning that you can go forward through it to reverse the train, but then when you want to reverse again you will have to back up through it. But still, being able to reverse direction at all makes it worth the slight inconvenience and can give you a better appreciation of planning out your train's route.

That's a pretty complex layout for a simple 4x8. Wish I'd had something like that when I was a kid!


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Looking at this from the perspective of "what would I add in this limited space", I can see a couple options that would add some interest to how your train runs...
> 
> First off, as mentioned above, sidings. You have a little room inside the straight line along to bottom of the picture, you could probably slip in two parallel sidings there and give yourself a place to switch out cars.
> 
> ...


This sounds quite interesting... can you give me a little more of an explanation of this reverse loop idea? DO you mean adding like a "X" connecting the tracks at the top with of the pic so they crossed over? 

And yeah... wiring it. Clueless here. All I know is that the transformer (thats the right jargon, right?) that came with this set seems powerful enough to run this train on a lot of track.. I think I have about 40 feet in there. 

It's a fun run to watch... lots of changing direction and at a nice slowish speed, a full minute or more to complete. 

Thanks again... these posts are really giving me lots to think about.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You are swimming in excellent advice and suggestions so far.

Surprised that no one has mentioned one of my favorite
topics...DCC, digital command control. The train set you
bought is straight DC. That will be fine as long as you
have only one locomotive, but when that loco that you
can't do without shows up you won't be able to run them
both on the same tracl with your present system.

That's where DCC comes in. Like computer terminals
each loco has an address, and using a DCC controller you
can individually control them, even running them in
opposite directions on the same track.

At that future point when you do want DCC, this loco will
no doubt be easily converted by the addition of a DCC
decoder so it would continue plying your rails, but with
much more interesting control.

One mentioned creation of a reverse loop. This is best
held off until you are DCC for it can them be wired for
automatic control. As DC you would encounter a complex
wiring and switch system.

I have a room size layout that basically has a one track
mainline that follows the walls, but I also have to fair size
yards and several spur tracks for industry. It's those yards
and spurs that make your layout interesting. You make up
trains by picking up cars from that business..others from
a factory or a mine. Then later you must spot empties
to those places. You see what I mean...these are things
that you do when you get tired of watching a train go
round and round. 

Look at the videos various members have posted that
show layouts of all sizes. Check the layout forums for
ideas.

I warn you, it will get you, you'll want more and more as
you see what you can do with HO trains.

And best of all, you've come to the right place for help
and advice.

Don


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

DonR said:


> You are swimming in excellent advice and suggestions so far.
> 
> Surprised that no one has mentioned one of my favorite
> topics...DCC, digital command control. The train set you
> ...


Thanks Don! I like the sound of the DCC setup in the future! 

And I think I'm already gotten! :smokin:


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

AdRockTrains...I suggest you go on the internet and look up a few model train subjects such as "building scenery", or "how to wire your railroad", or "making trees for model railroad"...that sort of thing. There are literally thousands of videos out there on every subject of modeling you can think of. Take some time as was suggested in the first reply, and watch some of them. They will get your creative juices flowing and give you lots of idea on which way to turn and how to think about the various aspects of the hobby. And as was said, there's no need to hurry...it's a hobby! Enjoy it!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Let's start out with a quick visual of what I'm talking about...









Now you'll have to work out the exact pieces to make everything fit, but this gives the basic idea. To see what the reverse-loop does, start at the bottom straightaway, and moving towards the left side, follow the track around as you normally would, noting which direction the train is moving around the various loops. Now go around the track again, but this time after you go over the bridge, take the turnout across to the back track, then continue following until you are back at your starting point. Note that your train is now moving in the opposite direction!

To understand what I mean by a one-directional reverse-loop, try following the track around in both directions. When you come to the turnouts, you will note that in one direction, you can go straight through the turnouts and across to the other track. However if you follow the track in the other direction, the turnouts don't give you the ability to follow an alternate path. Your only choice is to take the train just past the turnout, then back up through the turnout to get to the other track. The only solution for this is to have two crossovers in opposite directions, however due to your limited space you may not be able to add a second cross-over.

Now, as to the need to create multiple sections when you have a reverse-loop... Take a look at the blue line. Note that when you follow it around the new loop, the outside rail no longer joins back to itself. What you have effectively done is connected the positive rail to the negative rail, and shorted out the transformer. Do get around this, you break up your tracks with insulated rail joiners. for this simple layout you would only need two sections -- the loop marked by the blue line (put the insulated joiners to the LEFT of turnout where the two rails join back together), and another section for all the rest of the track.

OK now comes the tricky part. You have to visualize the positive and negative flow of electricity are your train rolls around the loop. What you are going to do is let your train roll into the reverse-loop section, and while it is in there you will switch the polarity of the mainline track, so that when the train leaves the reverse loop, it will still see the same polarity. Imagine it this way -- you have the negative pole of the transformer connected to the left wheels of your loco, and the positive polarity connected to the right wheels (this can change, I'm only saying this for our visual exercise). What you want to do is make sure that as you go around the loop, you always keep the polarity the same on your loco wheels. Since the reverse-loop changes your direction, you also have to change the track polarity before the loco exists from the reverse loop.

To make things even more fun, you also need to keep track of which direction the power is flowing when you enter the reverse loop. Consider that when you come off the bridge, if you follow the turnout one direction your right wheel will be on one side, but if you take the other direction of the turnout your right wheel will be on the opposite rail through the reverse loop. If you enter the reverse-loop when power to that section is the wrong direction, your loco will do an instant reverse-direction, back up slightly onto the mainline, then try to go forward again. Most likely the loco will simply short out the transformer as it bridges the gap across your insulated rail joiners.

So with the greater flexibility in how you can run your trains comes a much more complicated wiring setup, and any time you use the reverse-loop to switch directions you have to pay close attention to flipping switch as the train rolls along (although for the standard operation of running around the mainline track, you can still leave it alone and it can run all day).

Wiring sounds complicated at first, but once you get the basic idea then it's pretty simple. And there are electronic gadgets now that will automate the polarity as you go through loops so you don't even have to think about it. However it is still good to have that basic knowledge right way so that you understand what is happening when you move on to more complex layouts with multiple reverse-loop options.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

It seems as though he would need a second reverse loop as once he reverses he can't get back to forward without backing.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*What to do next?*

As mentioned in some prior replies, stopping now and doing a little "armchair railroading" 
(thinking and reading rather than building right away) is the best way, in my opinion. 
It's a given that, as you get more experienced, you will want to improve on whatever you have done. So a certain amount of "rip it out and do it over" is likely in your future.
That doesn't mean you have to jump in blind. Think about the first day on a new job, or the first time you drove a car. Some training was needed before you started, but you still learned more about what you were doing as you went along. A good book, along with videos, online research, Etc. will give you some basic instruction on how a real railroad operates, and what we can do to create a miniature version. I recommend the book " getting started in N-scale model railroading", even though you are modeling in a different scale. 
This book is available at kalmbach.com or train stores.
It contains basic, short, easy-to -understand chapters on a variety of subjects you will need to learn. Bench work, track, wiring and control systems, locos,scenery, Etc. Perhaps on of the H.O. modelers on this forum can suggest an equivalent beginner's book related to H.O. scale.
If you would rather build now, I would definitely put down the foam over the plywood. I would also think about the shape of a real railroad, ( typically 100' across & many miles long) That very long, and very thin, shape does not fit well on a short, fat, 4'x8' piece of wood.
As Don R suggested, you may have more total space than you think. Many modelers lean toward some sort of around the walls, shape as it closely mimics the basic shape of that real railroad. 
If you are limited to just the 4x8, you might want to put a double sided backdrop, high forested ridge, or some other view blocking device down the middle and divide the 4x8 into two separate scenes (towns?) so the train has two places to stop and switch cars on the sidings another member recommended.
In any case whatever you decide to do can't be wrong, as long as you're having fun! 

Welcome to a great hobby!

Traction fan


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

Thank you all for the great input. This is EXACTLY the kind of feedback/advice I was looking for. I am already LOVING this hobby and I've barely gotten started. 

I was given a Walthers 2015 HO reference book and it's 1,000 pages to just geek out over. I love it. Good thing I have a decent hobby budget! 

We (I have the family involved in the creative work) have already thought out some scenery ideas and we are pretty excited. We have 3 kids and they each will get to design an area and so far it's a park w/ playground, skate park and a boyscout campout w/ fire and tents.  

Thanks again and please... feel free to put in your $0.02 if you haven't already!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

There's so many possible aspects to this hobby, it's hard not to find something to love. When I was a kid, I had a basic 4x8 with two and a half loops. My dad was an electrician, so I quickly got into how to wire up my layout to run two separate trains. I had a roll of stuff to lay down that looked like grass, and I had some buildings, but mostly I just loved running the trains.

Now well over 30 years later, I'm finally getting back into the hobby, but with a much different approach. I've started out collecting old cars, upgrading them with new trucks and couplers, and learning how to detail them to make them look more realistic. When I am able to start building the new track, I have mountains and valleys planned out, whole communities, and appropriate industries for the time period I want to model. I'm learning how to create the scenery, how to build custom turnouts, and weighing new possibilities like DCC, bluetooth, and full computer automation.

Interests change over time. As you complete one aspect you'll find something else to work on. It's just one of those hobbies where nothing is ever really 'finished'.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Track plan?*

First off let me apologize in advance for what may look like the infamous "nit-picking." I expect I'll get accused of that: so be it.
I very much hope that you, however, will take it only in the spirit in which it is offered, and that's CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.
Looking at your present track layout,(I realize it's not necessarily final) I see some things you might choose to change. That is if you defiantly decide to go for a realistic look. If, on the other hand, you prefer a lots of action, lots of track approach; then what you have is fine as it stands. 
One of the main goals of scale model railroading is to create something "believable", that is something a real railroad would do. We can further project this realistic image by sticking to sights that are common on real railroads, rather than the more peculiar examples.*
In the present arrangement;
1) There's too much track in some ways, and not enough in others. Several forum members have suggested adding some sidings I heartily agree.
2) Real railroads seldom, climb over themselves in a figure eight going back where you started.
3) They also do not have a grade crossing directly under an overpass.
4) In the real world, few of us have full size railroad tracks in our front,and back yards. ( much as we train enthusiasts might want to!) If you try to model a town, I think your H.O. scale residents will find that they do.
It might be better,(strictly your choice) to have a single, or double track oval, with several of those sidings many have recommended. If you run it through a double-sided backdrop; you could model a town scene, with a city park, skate park Etc. on one side.
The other side might feature a wilderness scene, complete with boy scouts camping.
I think you are very lucky to have your family participating with you in this great hobby! It should be a wonderful experience for all of you. 
Again please don't take this as criticism of you. I know your new and believe me, we all started out with some variant of your present layout.
Whatever approach you chose to take.There are no wrong ones. Whatever you enjoy, will be the right approach for you.

Good luck, and have fun! 
Traction fan

*The exception to this "model the typical" business, would be if you are modeling one of the real life exceptions. Tehatchapi loop is a famous example,(often modeled) of a place where a real railroad actually does climb over itself. There are "prototype"(what we call real railroads) example of all sorts of oddities. If the prototype you're modeling had one of these unusual features then your model of it would be quite correct.


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

traction fan said:


> First off let me apologize in advance for what may look like the infamous "nit-picking." I expect I'll get accused of that: so be it.
> I very much hope that you, however, will take it only in the spirit in which it is offered, and that's CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.
> Looking at your present track layout,(I realize it's not necessarily final) I see some things you might choose to change. That is if you defiantly decide to go for a realistic look. If, on the other hand, you prefer a lots of action, lots of track approach; then what you have is fine as it stands.
> One of the main goals of scale model railroading is to create something "believable", that is something a real railroad would do. We can further project this realistic image by sticking to sights that are common on real railroads, rather than the more peculiar examples.*
> ...


Your input is most appreciated and not taken as nit picking. 

At this point, I am not really interested in any sort of realism beyond look of the train and the scenery... as far as it following any rules of a real railroad, it's not something I really care about. I totally get and respect guys who go for that level of realism and someday I might be there. But for now, I really want to have fun planning and building something that looks great and is fun to operate. 

Thanks to all for your input! :thumbsup:


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

Oh, and here's my plan moving forward:

Step 1: Get the plywood built into a table with 32" legs and a 1x6 trim around the edge. This will cover the 2x4 frame and leave a 3" lip, which will be filled 2" deep with foam, leaving a 1" lip over the "ground". 

Does this 1" lip around the table pose and issues? Am I going to regret it? Should it be level with the "ground"?

Step 2: Start planning roads, houses, businesses, landscapes, hills, a tunnel, etc. 

Step 3: Go for it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Your proposed step three is the most important. I've seen too many beginners get stymied over no knowing exactly how to proceed, and that's a shame. Just do it. If you don't like it (or it doesn't work like you thought it would), rip it out and try something different.

The lip will not cause any problems, and may save an errant derailed train from the "plunge of death" someday.

The Walthers Sourcebook really is an amazing reference. I get one every year, just to see what's available (their website also has a really awesome search function that makes it pretty easy to find what you want). They are the largest wholesaler in North America, and they sell everything at MSRP (except for some sale items). Some stuff you can only get through them; other stuff is available at better prices elsewhere, so sometimes it pays to shop around.

Something to think about. I have a wife and 3 sons, and only the youngest boy does trains with me. If you've got the family all involved, then (aside from being insanely jealous) I would give some thought to how you can get a bigger layout with more sidings and track and DCC control, so that you can get several of you operating trains at the same time. Of course, that will be a much bigger investment in time, money and space, but having such a plan, even on the drawing boards, can help keep everyone interested. 

I was unable to see the photo before I posted my last comments. I would definitely move that crossing out from under the overpass.


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## AdRockTrains (Mar 3, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Your proposed step three is the most important. I've seen too many beginners get stymied over no knowing exactly how to proceed, and that's a shame. Just do it. If you don't like it (or it doesn't work like you thought it would), rip it out and try something different.
> 
> The lip will not cause any problems, and may save an errant derailed train from the "plunge of death" someday.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I'd LOVE to get a bigger table and a DCC setup with multiple trains... and I may do that eventually. But, for now, the space budget and $ budget dictates that 4x8' for now.

As far as that crossing being under the overpass... yeah, I know it's not even close to ideal. Just not sure where to put it. I don't have another straight piece of track to replace unless it's at the edge of the table, and then it goes over the edge. My thought was to move the highest piers to that spot to get enough clearance. I can live with it there. I am most likely having a road go through there, so I need a crossing. Inside the left loop will be a park with a pond and playground and inside the right loop a small residential area. A least that's my thought right now. It could (and probably will) change!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Sounds like fun.*

AdRock trains;
I understand that you want to concentrate on running trains now. Great! You've made an important first decision. As for the 1" ledge, no it should not pose any problem. It may be beneficial as a "safety net" to prevent a model railroader's nightmare; trains falling of the edge and smashing onto the floor! The only possible downside I can think of, would be that 1" wall digging into your arm as you rest it on the table edge to work on the railroad. Even that can easily be overcome with a towel acting as padding. 
Most model railroads, including some sophisticated advanced ones, have what we call "fascia" along the edges. Fascia is usually made of some form of thin wood that can be bent/warped around any curves in the layout's edge. I use luan plywood stained to a nice mahogany finish. Many modelers favor Masonite or MDF, painted the color of their choice.
Sometimes it is higher than the scenery. It is often cut down to show a valley, river, Etc. that goes beyond the edge of our modeled "world". There is no set height or depth for fascia. Each modeler does it his/her own way!

Have Fun!
Traction fan


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