# "All-Live" & "Power-Routing" Switch Track Logic



## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

(type A)
"All-Live" switch tracks always have a dead frog and both routes live, all the time.. 
No insulators are needed at double end of these switches.
(type B)
"Power-Routing" switches always have a live frog and one route dead, all the time.
Insulation between them and ensuing trackage is needed on double end of these switches...

Peco Insulfrog switches are type A.
Peco Electrofrog switches are type B.
All Atlas switch tracks ('Snap' or 'CustomLine') are type A.
All Shinohara/Lambert before the advent of DCC are type B.
All Walthers/Shino/Lambert made for DCC are type A.
I have not investigated any of the simulated-shouldered-ballast type makes, but probably are the A type.

If Peco or any of the manufacturers have variations on these types, the way they power up or isolate the frog or the points, they are modifications of the 2 types. There is as yet, no 3rd type in 2-rail model trains..
Trains which run on AC current/3 rail, such as Lionel are different in that they need no attention to insulators or frogs due to the way the 3 rail system works...
All hand-laid switches, if the frog has not been isolated by cuts and/or insulators are the B type.



I have been involved with MRRing since circa 1955...
Thank you for your interest in this subject,
M

(For further explanation please YouTube:
"Electrified VS Insulated Model Railroad Switches or Turnouts"
~ under 'Scale Model Trains & Colorado's Joint Lines' ~)


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

You're wrong. Too bad, too, because you might be influencing some newcomers to the hobby to make purchases based on what you claim to be true.

For new people reading, the first case he cites is incorrect. The Peco version of 'dead frog' turnout is what Peco calls 'insulfrog', meaning that the frog is dead and isolated from the rest of the turnout rails. It stays unpowered, and is not meant to be powered. However, it is also a 'power-routing' turnout that feeds only the rails whose path is lined by the position of the points rails. This can easily be verified by anyone who knows how to use a multimeter.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Ha !! You are repeating *exactly* what I said !! >... "'dead frog' turnout is what Peco calls 'insulfrog', meaning the frog is dead and isolated from the rest of the turnout rails. It stays unpowered, and is not meant to be powered." ! ! ! (type A).
When and if frog becomes powered it is *no longer* isolated, is It *?*? !! It, via some form of *modification* (which I cited), becomes power-routing as if no insulators are surrounding the frog !!! (type B). And there is electrically no type C, only modified versions of A and B. 
You are desperately trying to find me wrong when you are in fact agreeing with me *!*!! Ha !
Watch the very clearly illustrated video then comeback and tell me I'm wrong, again !
And especially note what he says 5:37- 5:42.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

you are wrong .. i have atlas custom line number 6s, and the frog can be live and have the polarity switches depending on which exit is active ...
so those are neither type a or type b


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Give it up already......


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

wvgca said:


> you are wrong .. i have atlas custom line number 6s, and the frog can be live and have the polarity switches depending on which exit is active ...
> so those are neither type a or type b
> 
> No,sir. They are* all-live* in MRRing nomenclature (type *A*) I'd said : ....if,If, *IF* you modify them to power the frog (which I'd done umpteen times on last layout, running the green neutral wire from my Atlas CustomLine code 83 #6, frog (it's tiny tab at bottom of frog to screw-in said wire, then rigging up different powered ground throws/throw rods-to, with red and black wires to outside rails in order *TO* flip the polarity), they then become *power-routing* (type *B*), on out...
> ...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

from your explanation 'type a ALWAYS has a dead frog '...
not true on atlas custom line number 6s, so they ARE NOT type a
they are simply atlas custom line which have a metal frog that can be live ...
neither are they type b as they are not power routing


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

wvgca said:


> from your explanation 'type a ALWAYS has a dead frog '...
> not true on atlas custom line number 6s, so they ARE NOT type a
> they are simply atlas custom line which have a metal frog that can be live ...
> neither are they type b as they are not power routing


NO ! SIR !!! Atlas *CustomLine* switches are ALL-LIVE, the frog, DEAD !!! What you do TO them is another question !!! They come with the dead pewter (metal) frog and require nothing to include them in your track plan !!..
IF, *IF* YOU juice up the frog it is now a POWER-ROUTING switch, on out ! You merely changed it FROM an *A* TO a *B* !!!
M


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

PS.
Atlas Customline frogs, for some reason are painted black at the factory..It rubs off to expose the metal...
Maybe the paint protects this (cheap) pewter from pitting while hanging from its display rack at the stores..

btw... Old, brass rail, code 100 'Snap Track' TOs. with the black ties have plastic frogs and are thus, type A, All-Live only !!


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Wrong again on all counts, it's not the frog that becomes live on a Peco dead frog turnout.
It stays dead all the time. It's the jumper wires under the turnout that makes it power routing.
Kind of hard to see in the pic but there are two jumpers on the two converging frog rails.
They get their power from the rails on the other side of the dead frog bypassing the dead frog.
That's what makes them power routing. The frog has nothing to do with it, it's always dead.
It's the position of the points that determine which route get powered and only that route 
gets power, power routing turnout not all live all the time.










The next pic is a Walthers dead frog turnout, it has different jumpers that supply power to the converging rails from the two outside stock rails. These jumpers by pass the still dead frog and if it weren't for these jumpers both converging rails would be just as dead as the frog. This turnout is all live all the time but the frog is still dead.
Its not the frog but the jumpers that make the difference.










One question how can powering the frog do anything at all, it is insulated on all four converging rails. The power has no place to go? It most certainly can't go to the converging rails now can it?
It can't, only thing it can do is power the frog. It's how the factory wires the converging rails that's important.

Having said that once you put power to the diverging track beyond the turnout none of them are power routing and the type B as you call it will need to be insulated at the frog rails.
But if there is no added power beyond the turnout both the Type B and the Peco dead frog 
will be power routing. IE: A dead spur for parking DC locos on or cutting off the sound on DCC locos. In this case no insinuator is needed.
It's not so much the turnout but how the rest of the layout is wired.

Don't know about Atlas, don't use them and never will.

Magic


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Hang on, guys! I have to go make me some popcorn! This could get good!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Wow, ED-RRR really is back! Who else is such a master of trying to pass off completely inaccurate information and then tries to wiggle out on technicalities when he's called out on it. Best just to make this whole thread go away to avoid steering people wrong.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

if it matters, it's minus 36 up here now ... that's in Celsius but at minus 40 they are the same as fahernheit , lol


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I like beer.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Wouldn't it be nice to use trolly poles on your locos and take
power from an overhead wire. No worries with frogs, gators,
snakes or tad poles. 

Don


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

mesenteria said:


> I like beer.


So does Bubba J.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

DonR said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to use trolly poles on your locos and take
> power from an overhead wire. No worries with frogs, gators,
> snakes or tad poles.
> 
> Don


Wow steam and diesel locos with pantographs and trolley poles !!! What a novel idea !!! Who'd a thunk it ??!


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Keep warm up there WVGCA! Good time to do some equipment maintenance and not worry about the Harvester now frozen to the ground in the front yard, it will thaw out in a few months!


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*All* the various ways 2-rail switch tracks get wired or not wired; the frog, points, what have you, from any manufacturer, they still are either *Power Routing* or *All Live*, period !! They are Type* A* or type *B*. There is no type C or D or.......
And the frog on a Peco, does *NOT** stay dead* as you claim, *Mr Magic*, when it becomes type B, power-routing. It is juiced !!.. How else would you hook up a "Hex *Frog* Juicer" to them, Atlas, Walthers, ME or other !!?. The *Insulfrog* stays dead as a type A . if, IF you power it in any fashion it becomes a type B, power routing...
No sir ! I am correct on *all counts *!!!
*All live* TOs have a cold frog. All *Power Routing* TOs have a powered frog..
Peco *Insulfrog* is an All-Live TO. Peco *Electrofrog *is a power routing TO...


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

And here I am wondering how I am going to wire my layout.....so confused....


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

DonR said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to use trolly poles on your locos and take
> power from an overhead wire. No worries with frogs, gators,
> snakes or tad poles.
> 
> Don


The same could be said for battery operated, remote control trains.....if there ever were/are such things commercially......


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

BigGRacing said:


> And here I am wondering how I am going to wire my layout.....so confused....


Gary. If you go DCC, a small to medium sized layout only will require 2 wires from the throttle panel (comes with the throttle), to the track..The truth: I had a 35' long HO with an NCE PowerCab which ran flawlessly and had no buss wire or feeders underneath...only rail joiners for continuity... 2 wires !


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

I am listening to everyone’s comments for sure, thank you. Haven’t decided if I am going to block it a bit so can’t wait till I get a dcc system this summer. I am going to have to eventually investigate about the wiring of a passing track so it doesn’t short out.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

in most cases [except for very small layouts] a DCC wiring bus and feeders [say every three to six feet] are recommended, not as a necessity but as a precaution ..


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

~*Gary Gary*, quite contrary, my friend !!
if, *IF* you go DCC/sound or no sound, you do not "block" *a n y t h i n g* !!
That is the beauty if DCC ! Power is on full in all the rails. Blocks are for earlier, analog/DC layouts stemming from 1950s technology. It *was* great !! I was there !! But with DCC only the loco (and/or locos) you wish to roll,.. roll.
This is because to roll a loco in DCC you first have to assign it an address (One loco may remain address, factory-default #3). Then only locos run via the address you assigned 'em, then called upon them with; the others, sitting cold or idling/nesting..
In analog DC, all engines in the same block will move at the same time and so blocks are used to isolate one loco from de other / one train from de other...
~ Personally, I advise anyone still trying to make up their minds, and with no value judgement implied, to go DCC and join the new control world...Why ? Not because it's cool, or techy, or even extremely less, near zero, wiring !! No.
It's because it's more r e a l i s t i c ! Complete independence of motive power same as the 1:1 scale ! And if ya don't keep a sharp eye out at the tracks ahead, you could even have a head on collision or rear-end a train, just like the 1:1 scale...And that adds a level of excitement and urgency not known in the hobby before digital electronics and DCC.
~ Gary, I truly hope I haven't insulted your intelligence here...Maybe you savvy all dis already... *M *


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

wvgca said:


> if it matters, it's minus 36 up here now ... that's in Celsius but at minus 40 they are the same as fahernheit , lol


We don’t fight climate change up here.....we spend most of our time just fighting the climate.....


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> We don’t fight climate change up here.....we spend most of our time just fighting the climate.....


lol, so true ...it's warmed up, only minus 34 right now ..


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

A regular heat wave.....


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> A regular heat wave.....


yeppir ... pretty soon it will be less than minus 30, and time for sun bathing !!


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## Sideways (Jan 25, 2021)

Old_Hobo said:


> We don’t fight climate change up here.....we spend most of our time just fighting the climate.....


Haha, mind if I save that?😅


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

You certainly may!


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Let me see what do I do next.
The Superbowl was over mid way through the third quarter.
It was a balmy 50°F here today.
Don't really drink beer, only Margaritas and wine.
My trains are running just fine as is. Will make no changes to trolley poles.

What should I do???? I know I'll answer Telltail, sounds like fun.

I'm sorry that I don't have some obscure U tube video to link to.
I only have my layout and it's turnouts as a reference. 

In post 26 above you say that you "*do not block anything."* Wrong again.
You do not HAVE TO block anything but you can, my 400 foot layout 
has 3 blocks, or power districts. Why because I wanted it that way.
A short in one block dose not kill the entire layout, easier to find the short that way.
And a short in the yard won't effect trains running on the two mains.

This same layout has 16 Peco Insulfrog turnouts and 20 Walthers insulated frog turnouts.
Of these there are 6 Peco that I have set up as power routing. Power only to the route selected.
No matter which way they are powered or wired not a single one has a powered frog.
I just checked them with a meter, not a single one has a powered frog.
I must be doing something very wrong because you say they will have 
powered frogs if they are power routing and I just can't find any that are.

They make "frog juicers" to put power to dead frogs not the other way around as you say.
Even if the frog is juiced it is totally isolated from all the other rails and can't possibility change 
the way the power routing works, it's isolated, only powering it's self.

It's the under track jumpers that determine if a TO is power routing or not.
Those jumpers by pass the frog completely, the frog isn't even in the equation.
I don't know how Atlas does things but Walthers and Peco dead frog TOs 
have dead frogs all the time unless you use some sort of a frog juicer.

Why do I have 6 power routing turnouts? Because I want to park locos there and
cut off power to them, some of them have active sound,idling etc. all the time.
At any one time I'll have 13 or 14 locos on the layout and the sound of them idling
gets old fast, one or two is fine but not 13. Power routing TOs shut them up without
the need to use switchable power drops.

It's true that in DCC only selected locos will roll but the sound stays on all the time 
on many of them. Need to turn them off.

Telltail will no doubt say that I'm wrong and he is right, I'll let everyone decide for 
themselves. Some U Tube video or a layout with the TOs and test equipment.

Well lets see I think that takes care of things on this subject, what should I do next.
Maybe I can get under Old Hobos skin, he's always ready for some fun.

Canadians don't know what real cold is, they should come to Reno and see some 
real snow and cold temps. It got all the way down to 18°F here last night.  
That should do it. 

Magic


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

while it is true that you need a frog juicer or switch or something to give life to a frog on an Atlas number 6 Custom Line turnout,it's NOT ALWAYS DEAD, it doesn't automatically become 'power routing' .... at least not on my layout. maybe his operates under a different set of rules ...
dunno, mine has worked well for maybe eight years [this latest version], maybe i'm not following the rules ??? lol


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

telltale said:


> And the frog on a Peco, does *NOT** stay dead* as you claim, *Mr Magic*, when it becomes type B, power-routing. It is juiced !!.. How else would you hook up a "Hex *Frog* Juicer" to them, Atlas, Walthers, ME or other !!?. The *Insulfrog* stays dead as a type A . if, IF you power it in any fashion it becomes a type B, power routing...
> No sir ! I am correct on *all counts *!!!


Yeah, no. That's not how it works.

If you have a plastic frog with jumper wires, no, you don't attach a Frog Juicer to it, and you don't power it.

If you have an insulated/isolated and unpowered metal frog, and the switch is "all live", not "selectively routed", powering the frog with a juicer/switch/relay/contacts/etc. does not make the track beyond the (isolated) frog selectively power-routed. It just supplied power to the frog. (This is how 99% of hand-laid turnouts are constructed and wired.)

A "live/non-routed" turnout can have a powered frog. What you said about powering the frog making it the other type of switch is patently false. Your "Type A" can definitely have an isolated and powered frog.

A "routed" turnout turnout can have a dead and jumpered frog. It'd be kinda pointless and would be more complicated than having a solid metal frog, but it "could" be done, technically.

You also don't use a frog juicer on a power-routed "type B" switch. Power is fed through the points or switch contacts. Using an electronic auto-reverser is ridiculous in this situation. You only use a frog juicer to power an isolated solid metal frog on a "type A".

The point of a "power-routing" switch, is making the entire spur track beyond the frog dead, not whether the frog itself is powered or not, although the way you design such a switch would include a solid powered frog...


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Magic said:


> Well lets see I think that takes care of things on this subject, what should I do next.
> Maybe I can get under Old Hobos skin, he's always ready for some fun.
> 
> Canadians don't know what real cold is, they should come to Reno and see some
> ...


Well, you’ll have to do better than that......I’m the master at getting under people’s skin....


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

There are ALL-LIVE and there are POWER-ROUTING switch tracks..THAT IS IT !! .....*PERIOD !!*
If the frog is isolated and remains cold, it's an A-L. !! If the frog is powered it's a P-R !!! *PERIOD* !!
How either is accomplished is up to the maker of the switch or the owner modifying it ! *PERIOD* !!

Peco Insufrog, Atlas, Walthers ARE ALL LIVE / Peco Electrofrog, Shinohara (prior to DCC) ARE POWER ROUTING.
This is model train track electricity logic, not brand name design/construct. Those vary. *PERIOD *!!


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

telltale said:


> There are ALL-LIVE and there are POWER-ROUTING switch tracks..THAT IS IT !! .....*PERIOD !!  *
> If the frog is isolated and remains cold, it's an A-L. !! If the frog is powered it's a P-R !!! *PERIOD* !!
> How either is accomplished is up to the maker of the switch or the owner modifying it ! *PERIOD* !!
> 
> ...


The 's have it.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

After thinking it over last night I decided to delete my post.
No sense beating a dead horse.
No more comments on this subject from me.


Magic


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

I'm sittin' here wondering when mesenteria (whatever that means) is going to go the the way of the same 'powerless-route' as Mr. Magic and give up trying to prove me wrong !!
As I said, there are but 2 kinds of switches in the model train hobby; the 'all live' type, and the 'power routing' type. You can call one 'passive' and the other 'active'.
Insulfrog = passive / Electrofrog = active..But that is it !
If you modify in any way a passive switch by powering it's frog, it becomes an active power routing switch...*PERIOD* !


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

After following this thread up until now, I want to ask two questions. Since this is in the Technical Model Train forum The OP has apparently examined and tested all turnouts in all gauges. So far all I have seen discussed appear to be pre made HO turnouts and possibly some N gauge turnouts.
First, how are Gilbert American Flyer 720A turnouts classified. They have plastic frogs (cold) but they are user selectable using the 2-Train, Regular operation slide switch to be either both routes powered or just one route powered, based on the position of the points.
Second, how would the Fast Track handlaid turnouts be classified. I have 45 of these on my layout. They have isolated metal frogs that are powered through relay contacts, The relay gets a signal from the LCS (Layout Control System) through the Tortiose machine to apply correct "polarity" to the frog. The rails beyond the powered metal frog are always dead. The turnout rails receive power from the Power Districts supplying the blocks on each of the three legs (one in, two out) of the turnout. There are several places on the layout where three different Power Districts meet at a turnout and in two of the locations one of the legs is powered through a PSX-AR-AC reverse loop controller. These turnouts are clearly neither power routing nor all powered since either case would cause either a short circuit or a bridging of two isolated Power Districts. The frogs are powered but they are absolutely not power routing and they are not modified from the Fast Tracks design in any way. The isolated frog, particularly on the #6 and #8's are large enough that the frogs must be powered for engines to run through the turnout, they cannot be used with unpowered frogs.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

I did mention in a post somewhere that I was referring to 2 rail DCC and DC, HO and N scales.
AF-S scale, Lionel O scale, and others, are AC current.. 3 rail has the center rail (+) and the 2 outer rails (-). This allows the track to go anywhere without any concern with reverse loops or mismatched polarity anywhere..but we must accept the 3 rails as un-realistic in appearance. 
I believe 2 rail AC (I may be way off here) does the same but disallows reverse loops of any kind..
I'll take a chance here though and say I believe even these are 'all-live' types as well, as no insulation is needed at their double ends between the switch rails and the ensuing trackage..


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I obviously missed the limitation you refer to above, sorry.
The S scale track is used with AC, DC or DCC depending on the owners preference. Reverse loops require gaps in both rails plus an AR style reverser board to power the "reverse loop." To my understanding defining "all alive" as not requiring insulation at the ends of the turnout rails is confusing. In the handlaid turnouts no insulation is required because the rails are gapped at the frog and are dead, allowing, in fact requiring, power be supplied through the connected track separate from the frog power. Also the Gilbert turnouts do not require gaps in the rails but can be power routing. None of these are HO or N so it is moot.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I did mention in a post somewhere that I was referring to 2 rail DCC and DC, HO and N scales. "

i looked but didn't find any mention of HO or N , was i looking in the wrong thread ??


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Mr. Magic has proven you wrong in two different threads, you just won't accept it.
I gave picture evidence, demonstrations and actual layout experience proving you wrong.
Here is a link to the other thread.








Laying Track


It is an open. Thats why I had to wire drops to the diverging legs on all of my PECO turnouts. I would have done that anyway, but for these turnouts to have constant power on the diverging leg they must be wired. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept. It is explained right on the...




www.modeltrainforum.com




(For some reason it doesn't link to my post, click link to see my post)
Clearly shows a Peco Insulfrog, dead frog, as power routing.
It's a stock TO right out of the package, no modifications.

The Peco Insulfrog frog is a piece of plastic. I don't know how you powered a piece of plastic
but I'm sure there are hundreds of electrical engineers out there that would be very interested.
Please share your knowledge.

You on the other hand have given non of those things or any facts what so ever.
Just a statement of so called "fact" followed by a *PERIOD.*
Not one single fact to back up your claim, nothing.
Nor could you refute any of my claims with actual facts of your own.
Your saying so does not make it so. Back up your claims.

I did just watch one of your proof videos and it doesn't address power routing at all.
Just the advantages of a powered frog for short wheel based locos.
Couldn't find the other, post a link.

OK,I just watched another of your proof videos. you used this as a reference in your first post.
_"(For further explanation please YouTube:
"Electrified VS Insulated Model Railroad Switches or Turnouts"
~ under 'Scale Model Trains & Colorado's Joint Lines' ~)"_
Link here.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwicoKjq697uAhULvJ4KHV6WAtAQwqsBMAB6BAgFEAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTVnfs3yTUFM&usg=AOvVaw0V9xw1TdQfhfvOnqvMEf0W


In it about 3 minutes he talks about Peco Insulfrog TOs.
He clearly says that they are dead frog and are power routing TOs.
Even your "proof" videos show you are wrong about Peco TOs.

It's a very good video if you want info about Peco.

Mr. Magic didn't give up trying to prove you wrong. He proved it.
No sense wiping that dead horse any longer.
You're the only one on this forum that doesn't know your wrong about the
Peco Insulfrog TO.
As far as I can tell you are right about a Walthers dead. frog
being type A and the Electrofrog being a type B. I don't know about Atlas or
Micro-Engineering, don't have any of those.
Does anybody but Peco make a powered frog anymore?

The only reason I'm responding to this thread again is because you called me out by name.

Have a nice day
Magic


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Peco INSULFROG is an ALL-LIVE switch and has a dead frog which permits this, PERIOD !
Peco ELECTROFROG is POWER ROUTING and has an active frog which permits this, PERIOD !
When a dead or passive frog is activated, switch becomes POWER ROUTING, PERIOD !
There is no 3rd type, PERIOD !
All Atlas = ALL-LIVE. ME and Shino before DCC = POWER ROUTING; after DCC, ALL LIVE, ........PERIOD !.......


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*P.S*. Referring to *post #42*, I failed to mention, talking about S-scale track, I was referring only to American Flyer/ACGilbert track from the 1950s.. I fully realize there is S, fine-scale track today and S, hand laid, to boot..And, of course there must be DCers and DCCers using this track as well as ACers who still use or no longer use American Flyer track..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Play nice guys.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Far as I can tell, John, we have so far..It's my OP/ thread and I have accepted all the banter, right or wrong, thus far..I think what we have is similar to today's headline; the two sides of the aisle duking it out within club room parameters...

[duking > sp? rhymes with puking/spooking]


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## DOOFUS (May 20, 2013)

This will all be mute when Peco brings out its UNIFROG. It will be a dead frog unless you choose to power it. And the turnout will *"not"* be power routing. There will be no more INSULFROG or ELECTROFROG. 

I have always used INSULFROG turnouts on my HO layout including 4 Double Slip turnouts, and never had a problem wiring them.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*DOOFUS*, it changes nothing.
If the frog is left unpowered it's ALL-Live. If frog gets powered it's POWER ROUTING.
Again, the designs and constructs vary some with each maker..
Maybe they'll phase out their INSUL and ELECTRO frogs but the electrical principle remains the same..There still can only be 2 types. Either frog is powered or it's not..
This so-called UNIFROG will simply make it easier some how to choose which of the 2 types you want...
They, Peco, are probably doing this to simplify their manufacturing and packaging with a 'one size fits all' TO.


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## DOOFUS (May 20, 2013)

Not having seen one of the new design, I can only guess that it will have the same electrical characteristics as an Atlas Mark 4. Power the frog if you want to.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Yes ! Exactly !...In fact I think Atlas CustomLine [All Live] switches are just as reliable as Peco.
Peco 'seem' better because of the spring action in the points that Atlas doesn't have..Atlas also look American RRing prototype, whereas Peco look to me to be British RRing prototype..(if one cares )..
I could be wrong about that, too.. just hits me that way..

[edited in later on]:
Maybe Brit trackage is, say, more graceful; that stately bullhead track, their curvature, whereas US trackage is more v a s t and challenging, say; 1.5 Mi long freights thru old Saluda /over Sherman Hill/under NYC !!.........Know what I mean ?......


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