# Why is it Derailing ?????#*&+!*#$



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

MY new BLI K4s derails at two places on my layout, it is either the first or second 18R curve section joint at either end of the table, I have looked and looked, it is in scale, the joints are nice and smooth, the gaps are tight. 
Wrote to BLI and they sent me a new Weighted Pilot Truck saying they have had issues with these trucks being too light, I replaced the truck it still derails at the same two spots. I can run it at speed step one where it barely moves and watch the truck with a bright light and the wheel on the inside rail of the curves just runs off the rail as if it is tying to go straight ahead. It is very frustrating. I have two diesels and two other steamers and can run them all at slow or high speed and they never derail. Help


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Bkubiak said:


> I replaced the truck it still derails at the same two spots. I can run it at speed step one where it barely moves and watch the truck with a bright light and the wheel on the inside rail of the curves just runs off the rail as if it is tying to go straight ahead. It is very frustrating. I have two diesels and two other steamers and can run them all at slow or high speed and they never derail. Help


Know what you mean. I have two identical FA locos. One is hyper sensitive
to the least track irregularity that the other totally ignores.

But you've done the right work to trace the problem. Now, if it derails at exactly the
same spots on the track what is different there. Might be a low or high
rail. 'The wheel runs off the inside rail as if going
straight.' That means the wheel on the outside
rail has lifted to enable such.

Another possibility; 
I wonder if the loco frame in relation to the truck pivot may be stressing
the flanges on that tight curvature. Is the 'cow catcher' swinging wide at
the point of derail?

Don


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

OK I will take a bunch of photos of the track joint at one spot, all from different angles and one or two with the loco passing and derailing also.
Speed setting one is so slow the wheels are just barely turning, I love this BLI Steamer, just gotta make sure the track or something is right so I can let it run and run without it derailing


----------



## tele (Jun 26, 2014)

I run a 2-8-0, 2-8-2, and a 4-8-4 bli steamers and have found the 4-8-4 not liking S curves or having the track anything but perfectly flat. A rising track is ok but it's got to stay flat side to side.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Bkubiak said:


> MY new BLI K4s derails at two places on my layout, it is either the first or second 18R curve section joint at either end of the table, I have looked and looked, it is in scale, the joints are nice and smooth, the gaps are tight.
> Wrote to BLI and they sent me a new Weighted Pilot Truck saying they have had issues with these trucks being too light, I replaced the truck it still derails at the same two spots. I can run it at speed step one where it barely moves and watch the truck with a bright light and the wheel on the inside rail of the curves just runs off the rail as if it is tying to go straight ahead. It is very frustrating. I have two diesels and two other steamers and can run them all at slow or high speed and they never derail. Help


The tighter the radius, the more likely a derailment will occur. If it is ONLY derailing in your 18R curves, that may be the culprit. 

Did you ask BLI what the min recommended radius is for that new engine?


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The golden rule of derailment troubleshooting: if everything derails at the same spots, think "track problem".

If only one loco derails, think "loco problem".

When you get a combination -- only one loco or one type of loco derails at the same spot every time -- think "some very tiny problem with the track that only affects this particular loco."

Since this is your longest (IIRC), it may be that the curve is too tight, so the pilot starts into the turn, then when the drivers come into the curve it forces the pilot back straight.

Check to make sure your pilot truck is able to pivot fully (no details blocking the swing, or overtight mounting screws). Also, does the wheel ride UP and over the rail, or does it pass over cleanly? If the latter, likely your track is low on one side.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> Check to make sure your pilot truck is able to pivot fully (no details blocking the swing, or overtight mounting screws). Also, does the wheel ride UP and over the rail, or does it pass over cleanly? If the latter, likely your track is low on one side.


In addition to checking the left-right swing on the front truck, make sure that the mounting screw is loose enough that the truck can tilt slightly from side to side to allow for uneven tracks.

Also, check the spacing between the wheels with an NMRA gauge to make sure that the wheels exactly the correct distance from each other.

Another idea -- move the train very slowly just up to the spot where it is about to begin to derail, but has not done so, yet. Take a toothpick and gently nudge the truck sideway from both sides -- to see how much the truck shifts sideways. If the truck is loose, then either the wheels are two narrow, or track is too wide (also can be checked with NMRA gauge). If the truck is tightly bound between the two rails, then either the wheels are too wide or the track is too narrow.

One more idea -- uncommon, but it happened to me. Turn the loco upside down, and gently push the truck sideways back and forth and look for something that might be causing the truck to hang up and not swing freely. In my case (different loco from yours), the spring that pushed the truck down onto the tracks was catching on a burr at the edge of a recessed screw hole.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> In addition to checking the left-right swing on the front truck, make sure that the mounting screw is loose enough that the truck can tilt slightly from side to side to allow for uneven tracks.
> 
> Also, check the spacing between the wheels with an NMRA gauge to make sure that the wheels exactly the correct distance from each other.
> 
> ...


Here is the track, it derails at the electric connection


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Duplicate post


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Clearly that outside rail is not smooth at that joint.....the inside is questionable too......at least from those photo angles....


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are two things that caught my eye about the joint.

1. The solder INSIDE the rails. It is possible the wheel
flanges are riding up on it.
2. There is an ever so tiny kink at the joint. (although it
is much better than a couple of mine). One rail seems
to have a very slight lateral offset where it joins.

Hypersensitive wheels trip on these kinds of things and those
that lead truck would go into that category in my opinion.

I know it's not a happy thing to consider, but I would move
the solder to the outside of the rails. Pin the track in
several places either side of the joint so it stays correct when you resolder.
That will help you can take away that tiny kink.

Then if you are successful with these fixes you can come fix
mine.

Don


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> The golden rule of derailment troubleshooting: if everything derails at the same spots, think "track problem".
> 
> If only one loco derails, think "loco problem".
> 
> ...


Here is the loco approaching the derail spot


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The loco coupler is riding outside of the outer rail.
There is extreme deflection by the loco main frame
as related to the lead truck.

In my opinion, that puts extra pressure on the truck wheel
flanges. When they get to the joint with the inside
solder and that ever so slight kink they can't hold
the track.

Since the lead truck wheels stay with the curve until they get to
the joint, the indication to me is that the the joint itself is
causing the derail. Redo it with the solder removed from
the inside of the rails and iron out that tiny kink and
that beautiful loco will be a happy fella.

Don


----------



## dave2744 (Dec 18, 2014)

Bkubiak - Old Hobo is correct, unless it is an optical illusion of the photo. It appears the radius of the curved section is not matching up to the transition to the straight (tangent) section. I've heard of this being called "cheating on the the curve" in order to make the trackwork fit. I am positive your loco is reacting to this as a "too sharp a radius, thus the derail. Take another piece of section radius, and lay over the joint in question. I think you will see the problem right away. Dave K.

Edit: The last tie on the tangent section should be exactly parallel with the last tie on the curved section.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

dave2744 said:


> It appears the radius of the curved section is not matching up to the transition to the straight (tangent) section. I've heard of this being called "cheating on the the curve" in order to make the trackwork fit.


Joints that don't want to line up correctly are a common problem with sectional track. One solution to this problem is to replace a piece or two of sectional track with flex track. Flex track can be trimmed and bent so that both ends of the track line up correctly for smooth transitions.


----------



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

in the first set of track photo's, images 1 and 3 show a noticeable kink in the outside rail. it looks like the track is noticeably wider in that spot, if you have a nmra check gauge it would be good to resolder or otherwise bend that small portion into gauge ... the loco pilot wheels also seem to be on the narrow side of gauge, that combination may be allowing the inside pilot wheel to simply drop off the track..


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I agree with the others that you seem to have several issues all working against you: the kink in your trackwork, the solder on the inside of the rails, and what looks like either out of gauge wheels or track. See how the visible wheel of the pilot truck is almost off of the rail? For whatever reason, the flange on the far side isn't pushing the wheel truck into the curve -- either your wheels or track are out of gauge, or the outside wheel is already riding out of the gauge of the rail.

Good luck!


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> I agree with the others that you seem to have several issues all working against you: the kink in your trackwork, the solder on the inside of the rails, and what looks like either out of gauge wheels or track. See how the visible wheel of the pilot truck is almost off of the rail? For whatever reason, the flange on the far side isn't pushing the wheel truck into the curve -- either your wheels or track are out of gauge, or the outside wheel is already riding out of the gauge of the rail.
> 
> Good luck!


I am about to go out and de-, & then, re-solder the rail connector joint and get that tiny kink outa there. I took a long look at the track work I did and the 9 inch sectional curve is in between two pieces of 3 ft flex track, and the reason I did that was to make it easier to make a track electrical connection.

I made a video of the loco running back and forth over that joint at speed step 1 and 3 but I cannot get it to post on this forum. As a matter of fact I cannot even get pictures in a post unless I piggy back them as a quote using the paper clip icon. I did that with the Video and it had me choose a clip and when I clicked "upload" it just said "please wait, uploading image" and after almost two hours I stopped it. There must be an easier way then downloading something to a photo website and then using it's URL to post it here.

The video was shaky and slightly blurry but the movement of the truck is clearly seen 

Anyway putting the loco on my desk and pushing the truck back and forth with a toothpick the truck moves easily from side to side until it hits the stop,. which just happens to be the piston housing.
Looking at it head on one wheel pushes out past the cow catcher showing the wheel and about 1/16 of the axle, it is the same on both sides. The axles have about an 1/8 movement to slide from side to side in the truck and the truck itself has plenty of tilt up and down.

I really appreciate all the suggestions and help and I am gonna go out and do the soldering now


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You can't post videos direct to the Forum. You first upload them to Youtube
and then use the Youtube logo that you see in the header for your post. You
enter the Youtube number in that.

Don


----------



## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

To my eye, the curvature at the joint is the sharpest in the picture. If you have an 18 inch radius curve section, I would hold it over this portion to see how it compares. I find it easy to create this when working with track. This engine is the most sensitive.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

It was a lot easier to solder the joints then to unsolder them, I made a mess, melted some ties and still did not get it right or get it unsoldered, Gonna have to cut out that rail section and replace it, luckily I have a few new 18R sections and I even have some new 22R sections. Right now I just want to play with my new loco and run it some before I tear things up. My other steamers are a 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 and a couple diesels, they run over that rail full speed with no problem's.


----------



## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> It was a lot easier to solder the joints then to unsolder them, I made a mess, melted some ties and still did not get it right or get it unsoldered, Gonna have to cut out that rail section and replace it, luckily I have a few new 18R sections and I even have some new 22R sections. Right now I just want to play with my new loco and run it some before I tear things up. My other steamers are a 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 and a couple diesels, they run over that rail full speed with no problem's.


Just the same you should strive hard to avoid kinks as exist in that bit of track work you posted photos off.

As you have found, things like that will someday cause problems.


----------



## breezy8 (Jun 21, 2012)

The photos show a "slite" kink at the joint. That may be the problem....breezy8


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

DonR said:


> You can't post videos direct to the Forum. You first upload them to Youtube
> and then use the Youtube logo that you see in the header for your post. You
> enter the Youtube number in that.
> 
> Don


OK Don, I did as you have suggested and went to you tube, it took hours to upload and process the 58 sec video but I think it did it.
In the start it camera was all over the place until I got myself braced, the Loco is running at speed step 1 with sound, I love the sound and the smoke.
I hope I did it right


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> OK Don, I did as you have suggested and went to you tube, it took hours to upload and process the 58 sec video but I think it did it.
> In the start it camera was all over the place until I got myself braced, the Loco is running at speed step 1 with sound, I love the sound and the smoke.
> I hope I did it right it gets ok around the 30 sec mark and you can see what happens then
> QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm thinking that 18" is right at the limit for that loco.

That bad kink you have is making the curve too tight.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Did you get the video to play


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Video works fine.....that joint definately needs work.....


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Video didn't work for me. I think I'm supposed to update my Firefox to
play it. Will check later.

Don


----------



## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> Did you get the video to play


The link didn't work but I was able to enter the ID at the YouTube site.

Once I conquered my motion sickness  I was able to watch the important parts of the video.

The kink is the cause of the problem.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

fcwilt said:


> The link didn't work but I was able to enter the ID at the YouTube site.
> 
> Once I conquered my motion sickness  I was able to watch the important parts of the video.
> 
> The kink is the cause of the problem.


I think that kink changed the radiuss from 18 to around 16 in which case the loco frame just pulled the truck off the track. The truck was trying to go to 16R while the drivers were still at 18R,

THE WHEEL FLANGES WERE NOT RIDING UP ON THE SOLDER JOINT.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> I think that kink changed the radiuss from 18 to around 16 in which case the loco frame just pulled the truck off the track. The truck was trying to go to 16R while the drivers were still at 18R,
> 
> THE WHEEL FLANGES WERE NOT RIDING UP ON THE SOLDER JOINT.


Sounds like you have identified the problem. You may have to disassemble some adjacent track sections and reset them in order to keep all parts of the layout at the 18" minimum radius. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, substituting short pieces of flex track for straight sections can allow you to shift part of the curve onto the "strait" section.

As for unsoldering the track, that is not easy. The way that I do it is to:
(1) Make sure that one section is completely free from the layout (no nails or glue).
(2) The other section should be firmly attached to the layout (or to a board if the track is not on a layout).
(3) Use wet paper towels as heat sinks on either side of the soldered joint -- to help keep the heat from melting ties).
(4) Lay the soldering iron along the side of one track above the ties, while pulling gently on the free piece of track and wiggling it back and forth.
(5) As soon as the track starts to slide, remove the iron and keep wiggling the track back and forth for about 15-20 seconds,. This will keep this joint free while the solder re-hardens.
(6) Repeat the process with the other rail. Once the solder softens, the track sectionss will suddenly separate.

The rail joiners will still be on the track sections. You might be able to leave them there when you reuse the track. If you need to remove them, repeat the process, pulling on the rail joiner with needle nose pliers.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> Sounds like you have identified the problem. You may have to disassemble some adjacent track sections and reset them in order to keep all parts of the layout at the 18" minimum radius. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, substituting short pieces of flex track for straight sections can allow you to shift part of the curve onto the "strait" section.
> 
> As for unsoldering the track, that is not easy. The way that I do it is to:
> (1) Make sure that one section is completely free from the layout (no nails or glue).
> ...


Thanks for the tips, the hardest part was getting a piece of track separated from the rest so I just cut it as close to the joint as I could after that, the rest was easy following your tips.

It was breaking my heart to rip up a 5-6 ft section of raised curved track with all the hills and foliage work I did. But I am going from a curved section of flex which is less then 22R and more then 18R with all 22R section track around that big bend. I found that I was overzealous with the glue when I installed the foam riser to the table and the same with the plaster cloth, let me say it took a couple hours to do the deed as neatly as I could. I way overbuild that stuff. I am gonna do the same on the lower curve which is outside of the raised section, I think it will just look better, especially when I am pulling my long passenger cars around there. 

I was really surprised to see that slight track kink could cause such issues, I was watching as my big diesel was going around and noticed the very front inside wheel was lifting as the after two axles were still on one side of the joint but after the rear wheels passed the kink the front axle dropped back down, it was ever so slight I could not see it, but my wife got a big flashlight and watched the wheels as the diesel passed that kink and she spotted the wheel raising up.

Learn something every day....or die


----------



## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

I think you would find it wasn't the kink so much as the abrupt change in radius - to a radius that was too sharp for the loco.

A similar kink in a 30" radius curve would likely have gone unnoticed.

However you should strive to always avoid kinks and the like when laying track.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> It was breaking my heart to rip up a 5-6 ft section of raised curved track with all the hills and foliage work I did.


Anybody who is serious about this hobby has been though this MULTIPLE times. Welcome to the club.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=33329


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

fcwilt said:


> However you should strive to always avoid kinks and the like when laying track.


Good advice....in model railroading, never be kinky! :laugh:


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

MtRR75 said:


> Anybody who is serious about this hobby has been though this MULTIPLE times. Welcome to the club.
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=33329


HAL LAY LOO YAH.

Don


----------



## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> Anybody who is serious about this hobby has been though this MULTIPLE times. Welcome to the club.
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=33329



Another BIG AMEN to that!

I had a long sweeping curve I had to totally rip out and redo because it was in urgent need of super-elevation. The cars and locos would tend to lean precariously to the outside as they passed through. Never had a derailment but it looked awful. So I finally bit the bullet and tore the entire section out, and I was so zeroed in and focused on getting the track realigned and the super elevation just right that I entirely ignored a horrible kink in a flex track joint. It snuck by me too because I was using more or less one car to test the workability of the whole thing. It's a understated thing - probably 90% of my locos and rolling stock will negotiate it, even some 6-axle locos - but it's not right, everything gives a little jerk as it goes through - and needs to come out. So that will be the second total remake of that section.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Yup. Been there, done that, used the T-shirt as a rag to soak up the tears and blood!


----------



## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

Track radius alignment tools like the ones from Ribbon Rail are your friend.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

fs2k4pilot said:


> Track radius alignment tools like the ones from Ribbon Rail are your friend.


I am ordering two track radius alignment tools from ribbon rail 18R and 22R

Now that I am ripping up a part of the layout to fix the nasty kinks I will start another thread and call it Taking out the KINKS


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Bkubiak said:


> I am ordering two track radius alignment tools from ribbon rail 18R and 22R
> 
> Now that I am ripping up a part of the layout to fix the nasty kinks I will start another thread and call it Taking out the KINKS



Sounds like you're dating a '70s rock band....


----------



## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

If ya need to run radius below 18", you might consider using flex track. Ya can't tighten a curve with angle joint and expect the wheels to follow it.


----------



## Water Stop (Apr 18, 2015)

*Derailing...*

You're either entering the curve too hot, or your Loco has too long a wheelbase for the curve radius

If the manufacturer says your loco can handle an 18" radius...just laugh and go for 24" instead.

If you can't install larger radii, then go to N Scale!
_
Yowsah Yowsah Yowsah,_
Water Stop


----------



## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Water Stop said:


> You're either entering the curve too hot, or your Loco has too long a wheelbase for the curve radius
> 
> If the manufacturer says your loco can handle an 18" radius...just laugh and go for 24" instead.
> 
> ...


Hey, you said you were done with this forum.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

D&J Railroad said:


> Hey, you said you were done with this forum.


Who you talking about, I never said that. I love this forum...........until I don't, then I can change my mind again, hey I can be a politician..,yuk yuk


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> Who you talking about, I never said that. I love this forum...........until I don't, then I can change my mind again, hey I can be a politician..,yuk yuk


Why is it derailing, see what I said about the Ribbon Rail Track Gauge, get some


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bkubiak said:


> Who you talking about, I never said that. I love this forum...........until I don't, then I can change my mind again, hey I can be a politician..,yuk yuk


That comment was directed to Water Stop.


----------



## Mayhem (Mar 25, 2013)

fcwilt said:


> I'm thinking that 18" is right at the limit for that loco.
> 
> That bad kink you have is making the curve too tight.



Yup, plus the solder joints need to be on the outside.


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> Why is it derailing, see what I said about the Ribbon Rail Track Gauge, get some


That 18R ribbon rail gauge did not arrive today GRRRRR I called the Vendor "the engine tender" and he said he mailed it out yesterday, I spoke to him friday and he said he would send it right away and to me that means the next day which was sat.!!!! How hard is it to drop one in an envelope and put it in the mailbox?????


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Patience, Grasshopper......


----------



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> Patience, Grasshopper......


I know I know I know think good thoughts


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

To drop ONE in an envelope and drop it into the mail? Easy peasy.

To REMEMBER to fit this in among 50 other things competing for your time, not so much.

Remember that you are not the only fish in the sea.


----------

