# Lionel 2343 Santa Fe Help!!



## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hey all, I just purchased a postwar 2343 set along with two original boxes and the middle B unit I think they call it. Well, I paid 220.00 including shipping and the paint/bodies are all in great condition. I bought off of craigslist and thought it was a great buy. Guy said all works fine and only the horn works fine. They have no rust at all. Also, engine is extremely sluggish and hardly moves. Both engines have power but something seems to slipping? I have cleaned the commuters and oiled parts. I have ordered new brushes but current ones look ok. I did notice that the springs on the armature which connect to the brushes are barely long enough to make contact with the brushes...Any advice? Having a hard time with this. Could the slipping be caused by the long worm gear? Thanks all....


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

A few questions to get started:


What kind of experience do you have?

Have you eliminated the track and transformer from the problem?

What did the commuter look like?

Was the motor dirty when you took it apart?

Its possible the brushes are worn out.

You say it is "sluggish" and "slipping". Those 2 terms usually arent' related.

Are the wheels slipping on the track?

I think we need a little more info.


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hi, I have fair experience and have used other engines on that same track and transformer. Also, the commuter and engine was dirty but not damaged like I have seen examples of. I just cleaned it with electronic cleaner. How to know if brushes are worn? I have ordered new ones anyway. I guess a better term is the engine is slipping and seems like a gear is not working right. Looked at the worm gears and no build up of old grease and I added some new grease but seems something is slipping. I also added grease to where the worm gear meets the two gears connected to the engine block. Thanks again for your time....


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

Also, should the worm gear move back and forth in the housing or should their be no play? One worm gear I know maybe moves back and forth enough not to engage the upper two gears on the engine block?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

kevinbb said:


> I guess a better term is the engine is slipping and seems like a gear is not working right.QUOTE]
> 
> "Slipping engine" is not getting through to me, perhaps someone else can figure out what is going on.
> 
> ...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If the springs don't push the brushes down that could do it, maybe your brushes are worn out.
Did you get new springs too?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

big ed said:


> If the springs don't push the brushes down that could do it, maybe your brushes are worn out.
> Did you get new springs too?


Same thing I was thinking. As a temporary test, try re-stretching the springs, to where they do make good contact with the brushes.

BTW... running a motor with loose brush springs might cause thermal damage to the brushes and/or commutator.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

In order to lube this loco, you must remove the truck. This requires removing the motor from the truck and removing the pilot and the coupler. Did you do this?

Also, use motor oil to lube the loco. Grease, Lionel Lube, WD-40, 3 in 1 oil, light machine oil, etc., all dry out and get hard or gummy.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Please post some photos of the outsides and insides of your trains Including the track and transformer setup. Often we can spot what could be the problem.

Oh, and have a great holiday.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also when removing the armature there are bearings and a thrust washer if any of these are missing you would have extra play in the armature. Old grease could be your problem too. Best to clean and lube Te whole thing while you have the shell off. It's a good rig. Lots of people here to help youout.! And ppictures please.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Grease is a mixture of oil, soaps, and binders. As time goes by, the oils separate from the soaps and binders, leaving the dry cement-like stuff behind. When it comes to high speed bearings, etc., it's always best to either clean or purge, when replacing with new grease. However, if you're dealing with something where it's difficult to get in there and get the old grease out, old grease can often be re-constituted by simply adding a little oil and working it in to the old.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

There is no need to remove the armature from the motor of a 2343. 

The reason I recommend motor oil for lube is that it doesn't dry out. I had a 2025 in the closet for 40 years, and when I took it out and ran it, it did not need lube. It was lubed with Valvolene 20W-40


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Unless there is play in it, someone else could have taken it apart and lost a piece! I had it happen to me. I took apart, soldered and resoldered the wires, took it apart put it together 10 times at least. When I looked up the specks it was missing a washer. The motor was jamming up because it wasn't properly aligned. I don't know if I lost it when cleaning it or if it was never there when I aquired it.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

sjm9911 said:


> Unless there is play in it, someone else could have taken it apart and lost a piece! I had it happen to me. I took apart, soldered and resoldered the wires, took it apart put it together 10 times at least. When I looked up the specks it was missing a washer. The motor was jamming up because it wasn't properly aligned. I don't know if I lost it when cleaning it or if it was never there when I aquired it.


Same here. I bought a GE 44 ton at a show. 

It ran "ok" but was better in one direction than the other.

I noticed the armature was climbing and rubbing against the brush plate. A few washers from the parts box held me over until I could get nylon ones.


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

*hey*

Hey all, thanks for your suggestions. I am going to try some things this weekend and get back to you. Have a great weekend...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

kevinbb1978 said:


> Hey all, thanks for your suggestions. I am going to try some things this weekend and get back to you. Have a great weekend...



How many more names you got that you sign in as? :smokin:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've merged the two accounts, you are now *kevinbb1978*.


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hey all, i am trying to replace the collector arm on the 2343 engine but how is it removed? I have the new replacmenet arms and rollers. I want to use the smaller size roller to prevent any issues and am hoping that will fix some issues with lack of power and sparks that I get. Also, when would I know when its time to change a roller and motor brush. Is it just by looking at it? Thanks


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Usually, the brushes need to be replaced if there worn down. They will be shorter then new ones. The causes the springs not to have proper tension on the communicator. This will cause power problems as others have said. If there not worn or cracked they can be cleaned and put back in. The rollers get replaced if they are sparked badly or worn, a big groove in them. They might have ware on the inside also, like an overly large whole. Best way to check is with a multimeter. I wouldn't replace anything with smaller parts. Use what's recommend, smaller might cause problems. How did you get to changing the arms and rollers? Did you try the other stuff first? What did you try? Pictures? These guys can tell a lot from pictures!


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm assuming you want to replace just the arm assembly and not the whole collector assembly? Or do you just want to replace the roller? Rollers will show a lot of wear if they were run a lot on Super O track. SO tends to cut a groove into the center of the roller. If the roller looks smooth and the spring tension is good I would let it be as replacing the arm and roller is tricky.

If you decide to replace the roller I would also do the spring while your at it. To replace them you need to remove and replace the thin pins that hold them on. Remove the complete assembly and cut off the end of the old pin(s) to remove them. After replacing the roller and /or spring slip on the new pins and ever so gently flatten the end with a punch tool to secure it. (it's a very similar process to replacing the carbon rollers on a transformer).

As for the brushes. They are very inexpensive so go ahead and order a few pairs while your picking up the other parts. The best way to know if they should be replaced is to compare the old side by side with the new. If the old are significantly worn down swap 'em out. 

Some of the veteran Lionel'rs on this forum have very good tips on how to do these repairs. I'll let them join in


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hey again, since I am using new tubular o31 on one 4x8 layout and old 027 track track in kids room on a train shelf by the ceiling see videos...Hope you like....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRnfGlf2uoA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01ku71uN6Sw

should I replace the rollers with small ones or order the same wide ones? I need new rollers on the engine since they are badly grooved. Also, on the unpowered unit the arms are bent badly and rollers a very deeply grooved. I am just going to get a new collector assembly. Best place to buy one? See a new one on ebay for $25..is that reasonable? Should the arm spring touch the brass piece that connects to the wire for power? Mine do not touch should the spring wire be bent to touch for power or is the power transferred through the bracket that holds the arms? Thanks guys...


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Cool train set-up. I'l bet the camera will come in handy when the Daughters are old enough to have boys over.

If the rollers are badly grooved you should replace them all. Start with the ones on the unpowered unit as those are less critical to learn on. The power connection is through the bracket but the spring sounds worn if it's not making full contact.

I buy parts on ebay. Our Forum regulars like The Train Tender. A great place for newbies to buy because they are very knowledgeable and can answer your questions to get you just the right parts. http://www.ttender.com/


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Jeff at the train tender is good for parts. If it not on his site call him, he still might have it. I'll let someone else make the call on the rollers, but if it were me I'd replace it with original stuff unless you can actually see the smaller ones aren't working. Nice job on the ceiling and basement layouts. I like the extra use of the closet. They look great!


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hi guys, got another issue. I have a zw 275 postwar transformer running 4 lines. Well, when I push the whistle button on both lines for some strange reason the engine will stop. Why? Thanks..


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Could be a few things. He zw has a two position whistle control, 1st the engine slows a bit the second I believe kicks in more power so the engine remains at constant speed. If both switches, and all the trains are running, you could be at your max power for that transformer. Do the whistles work independently from each other?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Tell us what loco and tender you are running. Also, when was the last time you lubed the whistle motor? And the loco?


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## kevinbb1978 (Feb 18, 2011)

no, this happens when one train is running at a time or two. When I put a voltmeter on the track I would think the voltage should spike to 21 volts when the whistle is pushed as the voltage drops to zero when the direction is pushed. The direction works fine but both whistles are an issue. I am running a lionel postwar GG1 and tried my postwar 2020 steam and does the same thing on both tracks. I had the discs replaced about two years ago and I wonder how to 100% know if the discs are the problem and need to be replaced? Can you visually look at the discs and see? Thanks guys...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'm not an expert on the zw. There is a way to tell if the disks are bad but I don't think by looking at them. I would, as servoguy suggested, make sure the tender is cleaned and oiled. I'm assuming you tried different tenders with the same results? The contacts for the switch could be dirty or not touching. Try toggling the whistle lever. Try running the tender without the train with the track powered? Does it work now?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The way I test the whistle rectifiers is to connect a DC meter across the transformer output. I use a load to draw a couple of amps to simulate a locomotive. When the first stage of the whistle kicks in, you should see at least a couple of volts of DC, when the second stage kicks in, it usually drops to 1/2 to 3/4 of a volt of DC.


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