# Thoughts on Lionel, Negativity, and This Forum: And A Change In My Attitude



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I thought of putting a preamble about why I am posting this, but anyone reading it will figure that out. So . . .

Have you noticed we have not heard from Spence in a while? Normally this time of year he goes to Hawaii and his participation falls off a bit, but not to nothing for a whole month. 

I valued Spences participation in MTF. I counted him as a good friend. I emailed him, and he responded he was fed up with the forum because of all the negativity, particularly about OGR and such, and I think about Lionel, too. He was taking a break from MTF, he said, maybe permanently. 

I realize that Spence is not alone in thinking that at times posts on this forum get negative, and that we spend perhaps too much time talking about the antics and blowups at “that other forum.” I also acknowledge that we spend a lot of time discussing Lionel’s problems.
_
For the record, about OGR. _ I was once a very involved member on the OGR forum as well as an advertiser there and in their magazine. I left over three years ago – severing ties completely - for all the reasons others have cited, and that we joke about/post/grouse about/stand in utter amazement of . . . but I don’t see any value it talking about it. I do know it helps when a person is feeling bruised and beat up by the bullying there, to grouse about it here, but maybe we could dial that back just a bit. OGR is what it is and isn’t going to change. To me, it is like the government of Venezuela: I don’t go there either, and I think that country has totally rancid leadership. But nothing I do will change what it is, so I just ignore it. Same with OGR. 

I like to be positive, maybe to a fault, but – just think about that, maybe we leave OGR at OGR and focus on MTF on MTF.
Just think about it, guys . . . 

_As to Lionel._ I have decided that I’ve been unrealistic, maybe even unfair in a way, and plan to change what and how I post. Maybe others will want to do the same. Or not. Up to you.

Yes – I’ve been bitten _badly_ by Lionel quality problems – LC+ diesels that lock up solid, a cracked diesel shell, a Legacy Mogul dead and buried, and an H-10 with “toilet paper” and loose connectors inside. I’m not going to stop posting facts and observations about products I have problems with, no matter who makes them, or that I am a bit leery of committing up front to Lionel purchases, given those past problems. 

But I am going to stop criticizing Lionel management, because I have no facts to support any opinion about the quality of their leadership, their efficacy, or motives - good or bad. Maybe they have their head up their butt and don't really care . . . but maybe they are brilliant managers committed to fixing all these problems, but wrestling with difficult issues I know nothing about. I just don't have any facts, except that some of their products had problems. I’m going to forgo any more comments about Lionel, the company, or its management, I stick to the products. So I will still post about product and catalog quality, good or bad, but only what is_ undeniable, observable fact._

I’m not doing this just because I’d like the get Spence back (I would), but because I think this will make this a better forum. 

Not asking others to follow me. But, please think about this. 

And Spence. If you read this, we do miss you. Hope you will come back.


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## Palms to Pines (Dec 31, 2018)

Lee, that was a very thoughtful post, with much "to look in the mirror" about.... 
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I'm glad to be here and I want to be thoughtful and supportive when I post as well. I wish Spence the best too!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee, I have to give you a big THANK YOU, I couldn't possibly have said that better myself. While I look the other way when all the carping about OGR takes place, I really don't see the point in it myself.

I'll redouble my efforts to stick to proven facts as well, that's certainly a good plan. :thumbsup:

And I'd sure like to see Spence return, it's a bummer that good people leave for something as easily fixed as these issues.


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

A very timely post.
Thanks, Lee.
They say anger is love misunderstood or unrequited . . . . . 
I think my frustrations with the hobby have been . . . or seem to be.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Timely and thoughtful. I concur.


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## hokie71 (Jun 9, 2013)

Amen and well said to the thoughts above.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2019)

Thank you for bringing this subject up, Lee. I had noticed that Spence wasn't posting but didn't know it was for pretty much the same reasons that Art hasn't been active.

I would much rather talk about our layouts, new trains, modeling projects, etc, rather than speculating about Lionel's management decisions. As you said, _"I have no facts to support any opinion about the quality of their leadership, their efficacy, or motives - good or bad. Maybe they have their head up their butt and don't really care . . . but maybe they are brilliant managers committed to fixing all these problems, but wrestling with difficult issues I know nothing about."_ I couldn't agree more. Arguing about Lionel's management is kind of like arguing about politics. There isn't much good that can come of it.

As to the OGR forum, talking about it here serves no purpose. I visit the OGR forum and read some of the threads. I even post occasionally. While I understand that some have had a bad experience at OGR I have no personal beef with them. The OGR forum is what it is. No one is forced to be a member there. I would rather focus on and talk about the good things here at MTF than the bad things at OGR.

I am not against members reporting their negative experiences with new products. This can lead to a negative comments frenzy and it can be contagious. I have sometimes gotten caught up in the negativity but I will try to do better in the future.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Very well stated, Lee. Insightful. Eloquent.

Let's keep MTF focused on MTF, and let's encourage train-related conversations that are directed toward a positive outlook of the hobby's future.

Much appreciated,

TJ


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Noted and agreed...

Chugman too!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

While I've been guilty about commenting on or posting about the other forum. I have decided some months ago, there's no point to it at all. It is what it is. Like it or leave it. I post there, I post here. I'll let my threads and comments speak for themselves.

Now on the negativity or perceived negativity, like you said state the facts, comment on them. Say what the heck. Calling out who ever, Lets us know not to buy. Is it negative, some may think so but if the news is all bad what can you do?????

And to any members, if you don't like a thread, one you don't need to read it, two you don't need to comment on it. 

Last, like my grandmother always told me, if you don't have anything nice to say about someone, don't say it at all.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks Lee. I certainly agree on OGR. I have been a member of that forum for years and have had no problems there. I have not been as active as many of you have.

With respect to Lionel, I don’t say much about the management; not into that. But I just got off the phone again with one of their suppliers trying to get broken Christmas stuff straight/returned and credited. Maybe this time something will get done. We have done business with them since 1978 and Lionel’s QC is harming that relationship. This is observable fact.

We are very interested in what other members are experiencing and how they are reacting, especially with respect to the new catalog; that discussion has been quite helpful to us.

Hopefully MTF can get back on a positive track. We are all for it.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Positive is always the best attitude. Some people always seem to have a negative attitude. They get upset by stuff that I just brush off. I don’t understand it. Life is a lot better when you are happy.

Negativity seems to be the way of the social media world. See something, jump to conclusions and bash what you think you see. It’s easy to shout at someone when they can’t see you. Since the MTF is kind of social media, that may explain what is going on.

I have noticed an increase in negativity here lately. Between OGR bashing and Lionel basing it’s a bit annoying. I’m with Country Joe_ “I would much rather talk about our layouts, new trains, modeling projects, etc.”
_


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## batstang2000 (Oct 26, 2015)

You will always have your "glass half full" and your "glass half empty" folks and then there are people like myself who are just happy they have a glass at all. hwell:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

batstang2000 said:


> and then there are people like myself who are just happy they have a glass at all. hwell:


That gave me a little smile.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Why not just add a "Complaint Department" forum? - And ask people to post gripe-threads there - and/or move existing gripe threads there - and lock them after 2 pages. That will keep them off the radar for those who don't want them popping up in the O gauge or General Forums. Locking a thread - isn't a sin...but the style of moderation here at MTF is more on par with the rest of the internet - and MTF doesn't have the onus of "protecting advertisers" hanging over them.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Agreed. We need to push the fun switch again.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Roving Sign said:


> Why not just add a "Complaint Department" forum? - And ask people to post gripe-threads there - and/or move existing gripe threads there - and lock them after 2 pages. That will keep them off the radar for those who don't want them popping up in the O gauge or General Forums. Locking a thread - isn't a sin...but the style of moderation here at MTF is more on par with the rest of the internet - and MTF doesn't have the onus of "protecting advertisers" hanging over them.


this is a good idea. 

I believe some pointing out how people are treated over there is important so people coming here have an idea what some have gone through.


if people know what is happening over there they will stay here.


people feel better after venting.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

As for saying that if you don't like it, don't read it....well, that's bunk! That's like saying if you don't know about negativity, it'll go away on its own....and we all know that doesn't happen....

Good post Lee!


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

OK, I'll add a question to the troops.

Let's say you just bought something from Brand X, Y or Z.

Upon opening the item you notice, parts in box or color doesn't or not as described in catalog or just plain doesn't work.

You are going to post something and tell us what you were sent. Naturally a bit disappointed, probably PO'd. Anything posted is going to come off as negative whereas in reality it's the truth.

How do we handle this???


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

Agreed, and the negativity has driven me away a few times. 

I do hope however that as group there will still be posting regarding meaningful issues -- while the glass can be half full it also can be half empty. Had I been reading about the QC issues with Lionel 21" cars, I would never have placed an order, and thus avoided a fair bit of expensive headaches. Now, that is not to say let's beat the dead horse over and over, but if we don't raise the question how will we find out that 99% of engine X are junkers? 

As to OGR, who cares? We've all had our good and bad with them and theirs, we can just let them be.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Great post, Lee... but I'm gonna take a slightly different position on the issues you mentioned. All of your points are perfectly valid, because as I've often said there are no right or wrong answers here. However, I do believe in being honest, objective and fair. The thing is that cuts both ways: sometimes comments will be complementary, and other times they might be harsh. But if they're objective and fair, then we have nothing for which to apologize.

A couple of weekends I spoke to Meegan Unterecker from Lionel at the Oaks Train Show (WGHOT), and I couldn't have enough nice things to say here on MTF about that lovely lady. I was so impressed by Meegan's ability to discuss the issues I mentioned , I even recommended Lionel promote her to Director of Public Relations.

On the other hand, I've also been harsh toward Lionel with respect to their "overall" ability to communicate on product availability issues and quality issues. And that's a fair criticism. I'm not gonna list ALL the things that have gone wrong with Lionel products in this thread -- somebody else here (might have been Craig) did an excellent job of summarizing those issues in bullet form on another thread. Those were factual observations. So if people think that's negative, then they shouldn't shoot the messenger(s)... those issues need to be "owned" by Lionel HQ management. End of discussion.

I don't think ANYBODY here wakes up each day, and thinks, "What can I post that's negative about Lionel?". We talk up products we've purchased. And we either RAVE about the positives or we OBSERVE the things that missed their mark. Enough said about Lionel.

As to "the other place"... once again, I don't think ANYBODY here wakes up "looking" for negative things to say about OGR. That serves no purpose, and Lord knows the management there does enough negative things to themselves without anybody needing to give OGR's tactics more life than they deserve. In general, I know I've tried to keep my comments on the topic(s) at hand: for example, when commenting on Lionel's rash of passenger car quality issues in 2018, I've taken the opportunity to not-so-subtly mention that's why I parted company with OGR after 17 years -- because they valued their advertising relationship with Lionel to the point that they tried to silence valid user experiences on their forum like it was some kind of he-said / she-said scenario. So they picked their side, and I picked mine. Well time has certainly allowed us to cut through all the smoke and mirrors, but they'll never admit it.

From a big picture perspective, I would certainly agree that it makes no sense whatsoever to open new threads just to talk about the other place, because it's a waste of our time, network bandwidth, and MTF resources in general. So to that end, we agree 1,000%.

Now as for "negativity" on social media in general, I do think that happens a lot -- but I don't view what we've seen happening here as part of that phenomenon. Somebody here talks about a multi-year problem they've encountered with their Mogul steam locomotive: I think that's warranted, while somebody else may think it's negative. Let's just say I'll just agree to disagree with the folks who think that's negative. Why? Because it's PRECISELY due to those validated early reports that I RETURNED two unopened Legacy Moguls back to the dealer and purchased other items instead. *So many, MANY thanks to those folks who saved me months of aggravation (actually almost 2 years' worth) wondering how/when Lionel would fix the problem or provide refunds. In fact, I can't thank those early reviewers enough for the service they provided.*

I hope folks don't take this the wrong way, but I discovered a long, LONG time ago that we all give away too much of our own enjoyment of things when we let other people define what it is we participate in. I put up with 17 years of BS moderation "over there", but I hung around because "I" defined what I liked about that community long enough to stay -- until it just wasn't worth it for me anymore. 

Now I can't speak for Spence or Art, but I certainly know there's a TON of good reasons to hang around MTF. Believe me when I say, if I could put up with 17 years "over there", then getting a thread tossed over to Union Station on MTF or reading threads about Lionel quality here equates to only 1 or 2 months worth of the 17 years I put up with "over there".  Seriously guys... I'm not making light of other people's decisions. But I'd certainly hope they look at the "big picture", because they're missing out on the best that an online O-Gauge 3-rail community has to off here on MTF. The quality of posters here is second to none. 

Look.... my intent is not to convince everybody as to why I think the way I do. That's never been my style or intent. I've never asked anybody for their "support" when I explained why I parted company with OGR. Likewise, I've never tried to "influence" anybody not to buy Lionel products just because I experienced what I did last year. Heck, I was just mentioning to another MTF member the other day that I tallied up over $6,000 of items in the new Lionel 2019 catalog that -- in years gone by -- I would have pre-ordered in a heartbeat if the quality scene was much different than it currently is. I would have LOVED to purchase those items, but that's not gonna happen this year, however. And that's MY decision -- which, by the way, I never planned to say here publicly, but I just did because I'm trying to make a point. Now if somebody else wants to pre-order though, that's totally their business... and I'd simply be excited for them and wish them luck. 

So all I'm really saying here is these "sensitive" topics/issues are PART of this terrific hobby. And if folks let those two areas DEFINE the hobby for them, then they're missing out on a lot of other topics that get discussed here. I have several "what I hope will be" terrific videos in the works featuring different trains in operation on my layout. And I hope to document some big changes that will be happening on one end of my layout, where the Standard Gauge display shelves are being converted to vertical rock cliffs that will add an entire new and dramatic scenic dimension to the arch bridges on my Dunham Studio's layout. Hopefully folks will enjoy those changes, and they might even find them to be inspirational to have similar types of scenic elements in their layouts. 

I'm not planning to actually buy all that many new products this year. But when I do, I'll be more than happy to share those experiences -- good and not-so-good -- here on MTF. At the end of the day, it's so much easier to just not click on topics that don't float your boat RATHER THAN miss out on ALL the good stuff because you've chosen to disappear. There's TONS of stuff I never even click on in my Facebook Newsfeed, because I KNOW the spin those posts will take. But I seldom block people, and I certainly don't delete my Facebook account because of those posts. I define what I choose to read. In other words, don't short-change yourselves. Stay active... and define what YOU like about this hobby.

David


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Jeff T said:


> OK, I'll add a question to the troops.
> 
> Let's say you just bought something from Brand X, Y or Z.
> 
> ...


So why do you need to post anything at all? So you got something that had issues....it doesn't affect the rest of us, the world didn't end, so.....what's the point about posting that?

Surely you don't post about all your life's disappointments.....or maybe you do.....?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Old_Hobo said:


> So why do you need to post anything at all? So you got something that had issues....it doesn't affect the rest of us, the world didn't end, so.....what's the point about posting that?
> 
> .....


Look at my post -- just above yours... especially the paragraph in bold print. And you'll see WHY it's important for folks to share their early experiences -- good or bad. It's a valued service, when done objectively and professionally without intent to bash. By definition, posting a negative product review objectively should NOT be equated to bashing. Too many folks jump to that conclusion IMHO, and that's not valid. Enough said.

David


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Old_Hobo said:


> So why do you need to post anything at all? So you got something that had issues....it doesn't affect the rest of us, the world didn't end, so.....what's the point about posting that?
> 
> Surely you don't post about all your life's disappointments.....or maybe you do.....?


Hobo - If I bought something that had issues and then reported to the forum I would hope if someone like you were on the fence regarding buying the same, you might appreciate the heads up.

I might be wrong...


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2019)

*"So why do you need to post anything at all? So you got something that had issues....it doesn't affect the rest of us, the world didn't end, so.....what's the point about posting that?"*

Hmmmm, following this logic, *if something doesn't affect me, it is all good.* No matter that perhaps somebody wants others to avoid the same pitfall or avoid a troubled road altogether. The "world" would certainly not be a better place if we all followed this course of action.

But, each to his own. You be the judge as to what road you want to travel.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

*conflict within*

I got turned around here


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Geez you guys, I dunno. With the OGR forum and the quality of Lionel products these days, the chips will fall where they may. And as far as Spence, he'll come back if he wants to. He's a senior citizen grown man and it's his decision. Criminy, I was off the forum for 5 months (with about a month traveling abroad) and no one missed me. Can't imagine why. 

After being a non-participant in it for that long, I found that I really didn't miss it much. But then, maybe that's just me, since my world does not revolve around model trains and I have other interests, with trains being #4 or 5 down the line.

Anyway, I may on occasion, read through a thread on the other forum for informational purposes on how-tos and products, but very seldom. In other words, I hardly give the other forum any thought. So, live and let live.

And with Lionel's quality control problems, I appreciate being informed on this forum about them, because it helps me in my purchasing decisions, even though I buy only a fraction of what many of our senior chiefs on this particular forum buy. This information for instance, has persuaded me to purchase some of Lionel's not-so-new products, such as TMCC/Legacy locomotives from years back, rather than from the more current offerings. This has worked well for me, because I've experienced no quality control problems or frustrations with them and everything works as it should.

Again, we are grown men who play with toy-sized model trains that run on 3-rail track. Did you know that the majority of model train hobbyists don't belong to ANY online forums? They just enjoy making layouts and running their trains and don't care what anyone else thinks, has, or does.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

As one that stopped posting here, but do stop in for helpful hints and Lee's posts, also many amazing photos.
As for myself, many here know why I stopped posting here, (has to do with an upgrade done by someone I consider scrupulous, but never named yet received negative because, how dare I). When I left OGR, I mentioned it once here and there once. But strangely enough, I was invited back by OGR.
sit back, grab a cup of java and watch the sun go down, when she comes back, she'll be shining brightly and bring new beginnings and start of a new day. As we all should.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Jeff T said:


> OK, I'll add a question to the troops.
> 
> Let's say you just bought something from Brand X, Y or Z.
> 
> ...


My opinion, post it. An advantage of this forum is that we can post and exchange information about problems we have with locos. As I said, I plan to post about my experiences good bad or in between, but I'm not going to go on to comment about the companies or complain that its management is . . . . and all that. Just the facts of my experience. That is fact, and useful to others.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I like this place because you can speak your mind, and this forum is beholden to nobody. 

Defects need to be shared, we can’t sweep them under the rug like everyone else, it’s not fair to the other modelers who will assume everything is ok and buy the piece of junk and have to deal with the after effects, and the manufacturers will assume everyone is happy with their wares.

If some can’t stomach the honesty here, too bad, don’t read the post, or check out altogether. There are other places where its all rainbows and unicorns, go there.

It’s my creedo:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

She's a real beauty Craig!!


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Thank you for starting this thread, Lee. Folks here who've read my posts know exactly how I view the increasing number of negative OGR posts by those relatively few, former OGR forumites, who come here and bash that forum whenever an opportunity arises by mentioning OGR's shortcomings. My question has always been, why do they bother? Does it somehow assuage the bruised egos of those who claim they were fed up and therefore stopped posting on OGR when in reality OGR's management made the choice by banning them from posting there ??? 
As for stating problems with Lionel products, kudos to those who bring such issues to light for us here at MTF. However, criticizing Lionel's management team from the outside without being privy to all pertinent inside facts and information seems to be no different than Monday morning quarterbacking and just as nonproductive! While many here are entrepreneurs, have any personally run a company the size of Lionel? As the American Indian proverb says - Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.


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## Vincent (Jan 28, 2018)

Folks, I've never said anything negative about OGR, which has never done anything wrong to me.

But warning people about defective products and companies with sub-standard products is a beneficial service.

From this forum I learned not to buy Lionel products, and I appreciate the warnings. I am currently enjoying my first N scale train, and I appreciate some of the warnings about what not to buy.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Jeff T said:


> She's a real beauty Craig!!


Thanks Jeff, but I can’t take all the credit it’s from a comedy movie called “We’re the Millers”. Here is the bit with the tattoo:


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## JKP (Jan 19, 2019)

MY 2 cents- I like seeing, reading what other people are doing on there layouts, I like knowing if people have issues with a product, especially if it is quite a few people with same issue, I haven't been a member long enough to comment on negativity, All my engines are-will be Lionel, had a bad experience with an MTH steamer once and never went back. I do buy other MTH products. I was member of the other forum for a week but decided it wasn't for me. I found this forum and I like it so far. I know no person or forum are perfect:


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## Vincent (Jan 28, 2018)

Intelligent point, JKP. I'm surprised that your experiences with MTH and Lionel are different than most, but that really does happen.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

A wake-up call for sure. I appreciate that you posted this Lee. Spence if you see this I would like to see you back.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

ogaugeguy said:


> As for stating problems with Lionel products, kudos to those who bring such issues to light for us here at MTF. However, criticizing Lionel's management team from the outside without being privy to all pertinent inside facts and information seems to be no different than Monday morning quarterbacking and just as nonproductive! While many here are entrepreneurs, have any personally run a company the size of Lionel? As the American Indian proverb says - Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.


Ummm...have you ever watched the "Ryan & Dave show"...?


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

ogaugeguy said:


> Thank you for starting this thread, Lee. Folks here who've read my posts know exactly how I view the increasing number of negative OGR posts by those relatively few, former OGR forumites, who come here and bash that forum whenever an opportunity arises by mentioning OGR's shortcomings. My question has always been, why do they bother? Does it somehow assuage the bruised egos of those who claim they were fed up and therefore stopped posting on OGR when in reality OGR's management made the choice by banning them from posting there ???


I wouldn't assume every former OGR fourmite was banned - I deleted my account all by myself. And - I think there is an ongoing commiseration when new OGR rejects appear at MTF - that may result in some "bashing." The fact is - OGR has some unconventional approaches to moderation and vendor relations that might rub certain folks in the wrong spot. I suspect as long as the OGR friction continues, we'll keep seeing a small stream of folks leaving OGR for MTF.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Sigh. Unfortunately this will be like how everyone is nice at Christmas time and as soon as New Years passes, it’s back to business as usual. 

I’ve never understood all the angst over Internet forums. It’s just an Internet forum. Nobody is deciding foreign policy and nobody’s posts are being archived in the Library of Congress. I just enjoy the hobby and leave it at that. 

I love product reviews, good or bad. Sometimes I’m swayed to buy and sometimes I’m swayed to stay clear of a product and sometimes I change my mind no matter what if I want something bad enough. No matter what anyone says, I make up my own mind, sometimes. People on these forums have cost me tons of money by posting pictures and videos of purchased trains. And I love it!!!


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Roving Sign said:


> I wouldn't assume every former OGR fourmite was banned ...
> 
> You are absolutely correct, Roving Sign, and that's why in my post you've cited above, I said "relatively few" and to be more precise, I'd say possibly two or three who I'm certain left when they were no longer permitted to post there. However, by left, I'm probably being inaccurate since despite their no longer be able to post on OGR, they nevertheless must still be visiting or browsing there on a regular basis in order for them to be so fully aware of what's happening to their dissatisfaction at OGR and post about it here.


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> Roving Sign said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't assume every former OGR fourmite was banned ...
> ...


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## guitarmike (Jul 22, 2018)

Lee Willis said:


> I thought of putting a preamble about why I am posting this, but anyone reading it will figure that out. So . . .
> 
> Have you noticed we have not heard from Spence in a while? Normally this time of year he goes to Hawaii and his participation falls off a bit, but not to nothing for a whole month.
> 
> ...


I have been reading both forums for a while and from what I can see many people that post here also post at OGR. The negativity here towards OGR seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.
The O gauge community is not that big, we should be thankful for both forums, warts and all.
The forums are great places to hold manufacturers accountable for any problems with their products. It can be done with professionalism as most people here already do.

Mike


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2019)

*"The forums are great places to hold manufacturers accountable for any problems with their products. It can be done with professionalism as most people here already do.

Mike"*

Mike, excellent comment. I would only add that I would change the words "the forums" to the MTF Forum as* factually*, we are the only one in this catagory that can express manufacturer defects and production issues freely as we are not influenced by content that may not place advertisers in the most favorable light. And, I make this comment with no negative connotations. If the rolls were reversed and the MTF relied heavily on train supplier advertising dollars, we would not doubt be in the same boat. That's why we should be thankful that there is a place to get the truth without the sugar.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

I came to MTF because you could read the truth here of issues good or bad and not be censored.
as for management of train products it is true we need to collectively email them bombard them if you will with product issues to let them know of our displeasure with what ever is wrong.


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

guitarmike said:


> I have been reading both forums for a while and from what I can see many people that post here also post at OGR. The negativity here towards OGR seems to be the pot calling the kettle black.
> The O gauge community is not that big, we should be thankful for both forums, warts and all.
> The forums are great places to hold manufacturers accountable for any problems with their products. It can be done with professionalism as most people here already do.
> 
> Mike


Correct. Many are active members of both. Great! It's the fake ones here that whine about OGR then run right over there like all is well that rubs me. You know who you are. I'm actually embarrassed for you. Since you are obviously not. It's like your "buddy" in the bars. You eventually learn they are not your buddy. They'll stab you as soon as you walk out the door. But boy they're your good friends to your face!


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> So why do you need to post anything at all? So you got something that had issues....it doesn't affect the rest of us, the world didn't end, so.....what's the point about posting that?
> 
> Surely you don't post about all your life's disappointments.....or maybe you do.....?



Old Hobo I read and respect your viewpoint I assume you do the same for others.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Lee the part we agree on in your original post is in regards to criticizing management of XYZ company that should be in an email directly to them.

to those that dislike negative posts well you like me can stay and enjoy the posts on what others are doing on respective layouts and latest purchases and the issues that are not a rare occurrence but are in multiples or you can leave for someplace other than.

I like it here one can be honest here like in real life.

this is only my personal viewpoint no malice intended of any posts I have made on this particular thread.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

I go to both Forums to learn things and also give advice on things I know. If a product isn't up to snuff, I learn about either how to fix it or who to get information about the problem. I have had issues with a lot of purchases I got in the years. I had most resolved by contacting the manufacturer which was taken care of by them. Or contacting someone who has greater knowledge then me and did the fix. 
I see QC being a problem with manufacturers having second or even third parties doing the work and no one over seeing what the left hand is doing. Criticizing can be a good thing as long as the manufacturer is listening. If not we are just pounding sand. Some times you just got to get stuff off your chest and thats ok. If you don't like something then just don't buy it. Enjoy this hobby for what it is.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

"I hold that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing . . . "

Thomas Jefferson


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

empire builder said:


> Old Hobo I read and respect your viewpoint I assume you do the same for others.


Absolutely. Respect gets respect....


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

As a newbie what I see from negative comments is this:

All the problems with Lionel product is taking member's time away from building, running and showcasing trains to the MTF membership.

It's not the negative posts that are the root cause, it's the product failures.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Bottom line. As far as products goes. I think we need to see the good,bad and indifferent. As far as the other forum goes I’m personally I’m not a member: when I needed to research a few items I found some helpful posts here and there. But how they run it is on them and leave it at that.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Craignor said:


> I like this place because you can speak your mind, and this forum is beholden to nobody.
> 
> Defects need to be shared, we can’t sweep them under the rug like everyone else, it’s not fair to the other modelers who will assume everything is ok and buy the piece of junk and have to deal with the after effects, and the manufacturers will assume everyone is happy with their wares.
> 
> ...


Craig, I love, love, LOVE your kind of thinking. You clearly "get it". The world could use more that. Need I say more? 





ogaugeguy said:


> .... Folks here who've read my posts know exactly how I view the increasing number of negative OGR posts by those relatively few, former OGR forumites, who come here and bash that forum whenever an opportunity arises by mentioning OGR's shortcomings. My question has always been, why do they bother? Does it somehow assuage the bruised egos of those who claim they were fed up and therefore stopped posting on OGR when in reality OGR's management made the choice by banning them from posting there ???
> ....


With all due respects, ogaugeguy, put your big-boy pants on and see the forest for the trees here. Sometimes the English language can be imprecise. So whether I say, "booted", "parted company", or whatever... I've NEVER made it a secret as to the details behind my departure there about a year ago after 17 years. And to be clear, it's NEVER been because of the membership over there -- many of whom are still friends and we chat often at York or Allentown. So yeah... I stop in there and browse the threads periodically, because I still can correspond with many folks there through their emails since I sold portions of my collection to members over the past few years. I browse to help folks there, and sometimes share tidbits of that information here as well if I think folks here can benefit from the topic. My beef was ALWAYS with the style of forum management/moderation over there. And to that end, I'll stand by everything I've ever posted about my departure, because those comments are all based on fact -- many of which were communicated directly to the management. Nothing hypocritical about it.





MattR said:


> ....
> 
> You got it. I get a kick out of the misfits that whine about OGR, but guess what? I still see their two faced a$#@% over there posting like they are " still part of the gang". Or go there spying so they can report back here. You have no shame, and are and are two faced hypocrites! How do you like them apples boys! Let er rip on me, I can take it! �� This forum is full of fakes that love to pat themselves on the back and post corny " I love it! " comments for absolutely everything. Just like the fake idiots that use Facebook. Nuttin but fakeness and lies. I know for a fact many here want to say what I just did. :cheeky4:


This doesn't even warrant a response... but let's say it's safe to conclue that 99.9% of folks posting here on MTF know that the MTF community at large is better than this. You made two posts to this thread thus far, and neither contributed toward any constructive ideas in the discussion. Instead, they only served to personally attack and create false narratives -- neither of which represent the values of this forum. Enough said.


David


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Craig, I love, love, LOVE your kind of thinking. You clearly "get it". The world could use more that. Need I say more?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You were a first class whiner over there and you are here. Everyone can see it. It didn't warrant a response you say, but it's the first thing you did! Ha:hah: Ok now you can reply with one of your 4 mile long responses nobody reads!:smilie_auslachen:


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Traindiesel said:


> I’ve never understood all the angst over Internet forums. It’s just an Internet forum. Nobody is deciding foreign policy and nobody’s posts are being archived in the Library of Congress. I just enjoy the hobby and leave it at that.


My sentiments exactly, Brian. Some people take themselves, the hobby, and these forums way too seriously.

(By the way Brian, I'm assuming you've taken a ride on Amtrak's Surfliner by now. I rode them again last September, but still with the older locomotives. Have you seen the new Charger locomotives pulling the Surfliner?)


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

In all honesty, I’m like Spence. I don’t look in and bother to reply anymore because of the negativity. I think it’s time to stop discussing stuff that OGR does and focus on keeping this forum great. I really think all the negative stuff needs to be thrown out. Trains are suppose to be fun.

Lee made some good comments and it is timed perfectly. It’s time to change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

MattR said:


> You were a first class whiner over there and you are here. Everyone can see it. It didn't warrant a response you say, but it's the first thing you did! Ha:hah: Ok now you can reply with one of your 4 mile long responses nobody reads!:smilie_auslachen:


MattR, I'd tell you what you can do to yourself, but this is a family forum. You can use your own creativity to fill in the blanks. Is that a short enough response for you?


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

MattR said:


> You were a first class whiner over there and you are here. Everyone can see it. It didn't warrant a response you say, but it's the first thing you did! Ha:hah: Ok now you can reply with one of your 4 mile long responses nobody reads!:smilie_auslachen:


Dang Matt! What's with all the animosity? No need to attack a member over this stuff. You contribute here and there as well, and it's all good man. I've enjoyed your posts for years in both forums. That's why this post surprised me... it's just not like you to pop off like that.  

If you have an issue with Dave, why don't you just message him directly?


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Uhhh, guys. All this isn't what I had in mind . . .


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Uhhh, guys. All this isn't what I had in mind . . .


I'm sure it wasn't, Lee. Sorry this angle of discussion surfaced. If one of the moderators wants to delete these posts, that's fine by me. I don't want this to reflect badly on MTF in any way.

David


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2019)

*"If one of the moderators wants to delete these posts, that's fine by me. I don't want this to reflect badly on MTF in any way."
*

David, that's exactly what needs to be done. I think we all desire that posts to threads are done respectfully. We may disagree with each other from time to time, but that does not provide an invitation to be disrespectful. Lee started this thread with the best of intentions to create harmony and why anyone would want it to be anything else is disturbing.

*Seldom do we see the need for a MODERATOR, but if there was ever a case for it, look no further. *


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

Yes – I’ve been bitten badly by Lionel quality problems – LC+ diesels that lock up solid, a cracked diesel shell, a Legacy Mogul dead and buried, and an H-10 with “toilet paper” and loose connectors inside. I’m not going to stop posting facts and observations about products I have problems with, no matter who makes them, or that I am a bit leery of committing up front to Lionel purchases, given those past problems. 

_Well said Lee.... We should not be afraid to say " The emperor has no clothes " If it is true... 
Here on MTH it's done, but with some class, Still the best forum out there...
_


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## danpuckett (Dec 31, 2014)

I love this forum. I have learned so much and continue to learn. Hardly a day goes by that I do not jump on line and see what is going on. Thank you!!


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

What is one thing that MTF lacks? A large member base. I think this hurts this forum big time in lack of content, perspectives, and contributions from valuable people in the hobby. The lack of membership is one of the reasons many of us to continue to go over to OGR to get our daily train fix. With so many more posts everyday than this forum ever gets, there is so much more to read over there.

And we will never attract more people to come to the MTF if all of our content is complaining. Since the new year, every other thread is something negative instead of actual interesting model train content.

By this point I think Lionel very well gets the angst from their customers. There is zero reason to keep bringing it up every day with a fresh post about it. Let them do their work to fix things. The message has been sent.

As for OGR, at this point they seem to be the better option despite their moderation policies because it actually has train content to read. I am in the hobby to escape the negative in the world and I can no longer do that anymore in this forum. The Christmas Photo thread seems like a distant memory! Ever since then it's been so negative.

Hopefully we can turn things around return to talking about trains and have fun again.


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Wow!! Last week when I brought up that people were turned off to this forum due to the complaining, and I was told that it was just my OPINION. Appears it may be FACT!!

What Lee originally posted in the beginning is spot on. If you get a defective product, by all means post about it. Leave the personal attacks out.

Let OGR go. Some of the posts about OGR just make the posters look bitter and jealous. Same for the "we're so much better than them" posts.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

This thread started with Lee asking us to consider a change of attitude and quickly deteriorated. Some of it got downright nasty. Isn't it possible to continue this discussion without rancor? Consider Kurt Vonnegut's philosophy, "I may not be right but I can always be polite." Please try hard to be polite and to get along with the other big kids here on MTF.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Yellowstone Special said:


> (By the way Brian, I'm assuming you've taken a ride on Amtrak's Surfliner by now. I rode them again last September, but still with the older locomotives. Have you seen the new Charger locomotives pulling the Surfliner?)


Not yet, Vern, but it’s still on the agenda. These past few months have been busy with family deaths and health issues. Hoping life gets back to normal calm soon. My wife and I did get away for a few hours for lunch Saturday in Del Mar and saw a Surfliner go by with an F59 on point. But we plan on a few train rides soon!


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

I pick and choose what I read. I ignore the negative stuff and stuff that doesn't pertain to me. I'm quite happy here. I've found that if negativity is ignored it has a tendency to go away.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

To read all of the posts on this topic was a struggle for me. I don't mean that to be negative, it is because of eye problems.
I am aware that some (many?) that use this forum were once users of OGR. I may still be an OGR member but haven't posted there in many years and usually only visit there when referred by someone. I had no real issues except I just didn't like the atmosphere there.
I find MTF and MTJ much more enjoyable and more useful info.
Smaller numbers of participants here has been mentioned in a negative way but the smaller number may also be why this forum gets along without huge amounts of moderation. Let us not cause drastic changes in MTF.


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## dlkeys (Apr 23, 2018)

I really know little about the OGR forum. But I am a veteran of internet forums for work (I'm an IT guy) and for hobbies. I believe what happens is they lose their purpose. They get mired in things that just aren't important.

However, I have been reading this forum for the past 3 months or so and I can tell you that the purpose here is clearly to promote the hobby of model railroading. Every question I have asked has been answered in detail by multiple members. You can't ask for better than that.

Dave


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## Matt_GNo27 (Feb 7, 2016)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"If one of the moderators wants to delete these posts, that's fine by me. I don't want this to reflect badly on MTF in any way."
> *
> 
> David, that's exactly what needs to be done. I think we all desire that posts to threads are done respectfully. We may disagree with each other from time to time, but that does not provide an invitation to be disrespectful. Lee started this thread with the best of intentions to create harmony and why anyone would want it to be anything else is disturbing.
> ...


Please no. While I think that MattR's posts were inappropriate, I would much rather have them stand then encourage moderation.

The best internet community that I've been on has a "no moderation" policy, except for the most extreme cases. The owner treats the community like adults and gave us the responsibility to police ourselves. Occasionally things devolved into personal attacks, but people quickly learned that if they wanted an enjoyable community, that they needed to treat everyone with respect, regardless of whether or not they agree with the position. There is no ban on politics, and occasionally the conversation turns in that direction, but nobody freaks out. We treat each other civilly like adults and police our own behavior. I have become genuine friends—going so far as to stay several days with on the other side of the country—with people who are my political polar opposite.

If MattR wants to enjoy MTF and be respected by its members, he will learn that personal attacks will help neither. By keeping up is post, by NOT deleting it, he will be accountable for his words. If we no that our words will not be deleted, but will be kept for all to see, then we may learn to think twice before we post.

Please don't delete MattR's post, or otherwise moderate this thread, even though I think his words are inappropriate.


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Matt_GNo27 said:


> Please no. While I think that MattR's posts were inappropriate, I would much rather have them stand then encourage moderation.
> 
> The best internet community that I've been on has a "no moderation" policy, except for the most extreme cases. The owner treats the community like adults and gave us the responsibility to police ourselves. Occasionally things devolved into personal attacks, but people quickly learned that if they wanted an enjoyable community, that they needed to treat everyone with respect, regardless of whether or not they agree with the position. There is no ban on politics, and occasionally the conversation turns in that direction, but nobody freaks out. We treat each other civilly like adults and police our own behavior. I have become genuine friends—going so far as to stay several days with on the other side of the country—with people who are my political polar opposite.
> 
> ...


Delete away. I never post negative stuff. Look at my profile. Have one of these spies head to OGR and check my profile there. Just finally fed up with complaining and two faced jabber by certain people. It's always the same ones. You get to know them well enough that you know what they're going to say before you open their post. Then you open them and "Wolla" . Maybe if you guys really want a nice group here, you otta use our good friend OGRs take and flush the toilet here with a few. Just like a school classroom or a bar fight. You don't even have to be there and you know who it was. I just felt it was time to call out some of them. And eating crap from RM wasn't on the menu today. That keyboard warrior would be shakin' in his boots if any of this was face to face. As someone above said, if they want complaining and "The real housewives of MTF" they come here. If they want train talk from a group of adults on a forum that doesn't put up with crap, go to OGR. I only come here for the laughs anymore, I know just what I'll find when I come here. Only the brass here can make it better. Just like OGR prunes things out. You have to, because these boys ain't gonna moderate themselves. Guys like Spence, BENZ, and others don't just burn out because this place is cool. That's enough now. I won't make this crazy thread live any longer. And I truly mean it. Check back. I've said my piece. How much you wanna bet there will be more from.....aahhhm....some? Tick, tick, tick......


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

*"I never post negative stuff."*

Definitions:

Positive Comments: In the simplest sense, positive means *good*.

Negative Comments: Lacking positive or affirmative qualities.

Baiting: Posters can flame people as bait, so the person who was flamed will reply.

You be the judge as to what was really intended. My opinion, we need none of this on the MTF.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

As an "outsider" who only stops here for posts on modeling "O" scale trains and layouts and further learning and stopped posting. Here's my take.
Seems the original intent of this post is straying, and been up long enough to change and improve oneself and the Forum. It has turned from negative post about the other Forum and Lionel management that the only outlet is now to start bashing each other. Its time, for the good of the Forum and "O" scale to end this, remove and close it, and replace it with what we all want, talk about trains and "O" gauge. This post is not doing itself any further good nor going toward its original intent, rather alienating more readers. Time to close and move ahead.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

If you must, close this topic but do NOT remove it. 
If it is removed many will forget and just do it again.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I agree rogruth. I learn by reading. If I read a post I do not like, I have learned to not do that. We do have a few members that are not nice and they seem to put down other members. They are not hard to spot. It does not bother me because I know they are going to do it. Again, I am learning what not to do. We have a couple on the HO forum.
They are rude and sometimes mean to other members. They are just jerks and are not going to change. We all know them. A
new member might be offended and leave and not come back. I don't know if you can ban someone for being stupid.


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## Booly15 (Aug 16, 2017)

Perspective people, keep your perspective, I read through this and see many valid points, I use this forum for education mostly, but folks, this is a HOBBY, and we must remember that everyone is entitled to opinions, I use this hobby as one of my distractions from my 3rd post 9/11 cancer battle, so I say again, keep in mind what really matters in life, family, health etc, don't let words or posts ruin your day, for that matter if a train doesn't work, it is aggravating of course, (especially with the cost of them these days), but in the grand scheme of it, you will survive, I believe all these companies that charge these ridiculous amounts to buy new products should deliver a fine working unit, and of course should be held to that standard, but in no way am I getting into a posting war, or walking away from all the useful information I find here because of a post or two. So be well everyone, enjoy the fact that you are here and can have this hobby, and value the friendships that it brings, on and off this forum.


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## Enon49 (Mar 21, 2018)

*Zen*

The less you respond to negativity, the more peaceful your life becomes. 

Paraphrasing the Zen Master


MrToad


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

First of all a great written post by Lee. He sent me a link to it a few days ago and that's how I found out about it. Unfortunately it's turned into an example of the negativity I had spoke about with Lee in our original correspondence.
When I talk about negativity I'm not referring to posts where someone tells us about an engine problem, etc. Those help all of us in determining whether or not to buy such items. I know that Lee has cost me some money over the years with his reviews.
The problem comes after the initial post when people just pile on and never say anything different then 10 other posters. I felt I needed a break from the forum and that's what I did. I had originally thought about posting this about me taking a break but over the years I've seen several posts on both forums and it seemed to me that the poster wanted people to plead with him to come back and I didn't want that so I just left.
I did get a couple of emails asking me what was going on and Lee's finally convinced me to end my hiatus.
I've never been one to post negative responses and didn't want to start now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, first off, I'm closing this thread, it's clearly gotten off-track!

I'd like all the carping about OGR to cease! If you don't like the way they run your forum, it's a free country, go somewhere else. The same applies to any forum, including this one. I really don't want to get into the practice of deleting and closing posts, but I also don't want to see this forum become a battleground. It's a hobby folks, we're supposed to enjoy it!

Lee posted a very insightful thread on negativity, and a goodly number of you promptly jumped in to prove his case!


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