# Getting American flyers to run



## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Not sure why i keep messing with these american flyers, they are such junk compared to my o scale stuff but i thought i would give it one more shot before i sell them on ebay. I assume the 21085 is ac, bearly runs and only in reverse. There is a piece in the cab that slides up and down, not sure what it does. The royal blue sits on track with lights on, buzzes. Switch on top just turns it off. Iam using a 40watt lionel supply.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I don't mess with the 5-digit steam locos at all, especially the one you mentioned. They can be very finicky. From what I know, the slide you mentioned is the direction lock-out.Try pushing the slide up and add power. If nothing happens, try pushing the slide down and add power.,The Royal Blue should be a easy fix.. If you'd like, send it to me and I'll repair it, just pay shipping both ways, and a small donation on your part....


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I was going to respond to your post last night. I didn't. I figured flyernut would respond early this morning. I would have said the same thing about your 5 digit engine. The Royal Blue is a different story. My thought on it was send it to flyernut. I did not want to offer HIS help. Glad he offered. He will get it running as good as or better than new. He is the only one I would let work on a Flyer of mine.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> I was going to respond to your post last night. I didn't. I figured flyernut would respond early this morning. I would have said the same thing about your 5 digit engine. The Royal Blue is a different story. My thought on it was send it to flyernut. I did not want to offer HIS help. Glad he offered. He will get it running as good as or better than new. He is the only one I would let work on a Flyer of mine.


You're too kind my friend.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Not really flyernut, LOL. It is what it is. Very nice of you to repair flyers for the forum members. I have a couple engines flyernut has gone through and they are top notch. Flyers are not junk, you just have to get to know them a little better. Most are near 70 years old, and most can run
like new.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Need to know how to rewire the the solenoid to bypass it. Thats the issue. And yes, the 21085 is complete junk. Plastic shell, all plastic wheels on engine. Its a toy like marx.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Do you mean the reverse unit? I have one 5 digit Flyer. It was an accident. Seller sold it as a 303. It wasn't. It was a 5 digit engine with a shell exchange. Mine too has plastic wheels. A real piece of poop.
The reverse unit was not working. Here is what I did. I took the tender shell off. Removed the reverse unit and threw it away. It did not look like anything I had seen before. I bought the stupid thing cheap so was not too pissed. Next I soldered a wire to front tender truck rivet. Then I soldered a wire to the rear truck rivet. These 2 wires go to the 2 outside holes of the plug. One to each outside of plug. The center 2 holes get a jumper wire. Just a wire from one center hole to the other center hole. My engine ran at this point. No reverse but I can live with that. LOL, just don't overshoot the station.
At this point I did not have the tender draw bar hooked up. When I hooked the drawbar up I had another problem. That one I do not have solved yet . But I will. On a 3 digit engine the draw bar is isolated from the truck. On a 5 digit engine the drawbar is live with the truck. Right now I have a short because of the live drawbar. I am thinking I need a front truck with drawbar from a 3 digit engine. If any of this does not make sense just ask your question. flyernut might have a better suggestion but this is what I came up with. I will do all I can to not buy a 5 digit engine again.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

mopac said:


> Not really flyernut, LOL. It is what it is. Very nice of you to repair flyers for the forum members. I have a couple engines flyernut has gone through and they are top notch. Flyers are not junk, you just have to get to know them a little better. Most are near 70 years old, and most can run
> like new.


I am surprised anyone even answered after he called American Flyers JUNK. 
And that comes from one who only has 1 S scale locomotive. 
And I never ran any S scale trains.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Ed, we know they are not junk. LOL, he is just frustrated with his.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Plastic engine wheels and bizzare couplers that dont work. I have a dozen AF engines but learned my lesson and bought quality o scale stuff years ago. AF went out of business years ago, right.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

ennisdavis said:


> Plastic engine wheels and bizzare couplers that dont work. I have a dozen AF engines but learned my lesson and bought quality o scale stuff years ago. AF went out of business years ago, right.


If you like the looks of your engine, get a 283 or a 282. Both are super runners, smoke, choo choo, and head-light. I would go with the 282, it has a jack panel, unlike the 283 which is direct wired.. I also have O gauge, G scale, and Standard scale. I also have some high-end Lionel, K-Line, and MTH, but I had flyer as a kid...Right now I'm working on a #8 standard gauge loco, a 336 that was/is a basketcase, and a very early 312 with brass buttons and SIT which is also a basket case.. My wife always asks me what's the problem when I start cussing, and threatening to throw something across the basement. As it turns out, it's a flyer engine,lol.. I always respond with...I'm just relaxing, enjoying this *** hobby!!!


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Big Ed said:


> I am surprised anyone even answered after he called American Flyers JUNK.
> And that comes from one who only has 1 S scale locomotive.
> And I never ran any S scale trains.


Just like MOPAC says, he's frustrated with his one engine, which is a PITA, in my opinion...I've had flyers as a kid back in the early to mid 50's, and been repairing them for over 30 years... I have only ONE 5-digit engine, for good reason!!!..Everyone has a opinion, whether we agree with it or not...He's forgiven,lol!!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I hope ennisdavis can get these running. The Royal Blue is likely as simple fix of the boiler mounted reversing unit. Flyernut made a generous offer to get it running. The 21085 might be harder. Before cursing a 5 digit engine too much I clean all the tender pickup wheels and spray contact cleaner on the cab mounted reverse unit. Bypassing the reverse unit requires rewiring the engine because of the way the smoke unit and headlight are powered in the 21085. It can be done. From the picture provided it appears the 21085 has die cast wheels with white plastic insulators and metal tires. A few 21085's were made with plastic wheel centers and white bands painted on. Most plastic wheeled 21085's had all black wheels.
The 5 digit engines have good motors with an almost unrepairable reverse unit. I have 18 5 digit engines and all but one run just fine, however I do not recommend them to operators that want engines that can be easily maintained.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Not frustrated at all. Its a $25 engine at best. I trashed the e-unit. Runs now. No smoke. Opened up, new element that works but a ton of wick stuffed in the box. I think that would restrict the air flow. Any ideas on getting the smoke to work.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Bottom chamber of smoke unit should kinda be stuffed. Thats what soaks up the smoke fluid.
Upper chamber should be just wick and wire. Not sure of 5 digit wiring. I know the chassis is "live".
Find a 5 digit wiring diagram onlne. And see what wires run to smoke unit. Glad you got it running.
The 2 wires from tender need to get to smoke unit.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

ennisdavis said:


> Not frustrated at all. Its a $25 engine at best. I trashed the e-unit. Runs now. No smoke. Opened up, new element that works but a ton of wick stuffed in the box. I think that would restrict the air flow. Any ideas on getting the smoke to work.


It could be the wick has hardened, and won't flow/absorb any fluid. I would put in a new wick and wire and see what happens, easy fix for you.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The lower smoke chamber should be full of soft wick material. If it is hard, replace the wick and the nichrome wire. They are available pre-made online.
The 21085 wiring diagram is in the engine section of the Factory Service Manual at myflyertrains.net. As mopac states, the 21085 uses the engine chassis as a conductor for power to the smoke unit and headlight. If it is being rewired, just add a wire, do not depend on the chassis.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Like i said, element and wick are brand new. How does the air pressure go through the box if its stuffed?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Is your headlight working?

Air pressure does not go through bottom chamber. Only the upper chamber. You might not be getting electricity
to smoke unit. Try more smoke fluid. If wick is new it might take more fluid. The stuffing in lower chamber has to be wet before fluid goes up wick to upper chamber. If you have a volt meter check to see if both power lugs on top of smoke unit is getting power. Hold volt meter leads to the 2 lugs. If no power no smoke.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

ennisdavis said:


> Like i said, element and wick are brand new. How does the air pressure go through the box if its stuffed?


Air will be forced over the wired wick in the chamber through a small hole that also produces the "choo choo" sound. Check to see if the small hole is plugged.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Iam working on two 302s also. Smoke coils look good at 20ohms. Disconnected they smoke. Connected to both motor brushes. Air holes clean. When assembled and running little or no smoke. I think the motor is not allowing full current to coil.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Those 302s probably have the plugs, from tender to engine. Run 2 wires from the 2 outside plugs direct to 
smoke unit. Then you are getting juice to smoke unit that is not run through the motor.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

ennisdavis said:


> Iam working on two 302s also. Smoke coils look good at 20ohms. Disconnected they smoke. Connected to both motor brushes. Air holes clean. When assembled and running little or no smoke. I think the motor is not allowing full current to coil.


If you're getting smoke when the wires are connected to the brush holders, there's really no reason why you should not have smoke while running..Here's a stupid question...do you have the smoke lever and piston hooked up?


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Of course on the lever. I think its a track voltage issue or something like that.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

ennisdavis said:


> Of course on the lever. I think its a track voltage issue or something like that.


You could also have a partially broken wire. I had a K335 that just would not smoke like the rest of my steamers.When I added power directly to the smoke unit, it smoked like crazy, but when running, it didn't smoke worth a darn. I even went so far as to change out the entire smoke unit with the same results. What I found was there was a stranded wire that had most of the strands broken, and there was not enough current getting to the smoke unit itself. Check out all the wiring for anything broken/frayed/etc.Wiggle all your connections, worth a try.


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## C100 (Nov 19, 2012)

I do not have a PH.D in American Flyer as flyer nut has. However, adding to his comments is an issue with cold solder joints. I was just working on an American Flyer accessory that I could not get to operate. I think today's solder isn't what I am used to. Once I resoldered everything, I was good to go. Getting to the 21085. I bought one cheap. Once I polished the tender wheels, and sprayed the reverse unit it runs fine. Just my thoughts.


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## lugodimarco789 (Oct 22, 2021)

Getting back to your 21085 the reverse unit is a two step there is no neutral.They are not unrepairable but tricky to wire.The common problem with them are they become seized in place the direction lever will not go up or down.Problem is the coil is wrapped around a plastic holder with a metal shaft inside which connects to the direction lever.Over time the heat build up melts the plastic and fuses the metal shaft so it will not travel up or down.You need to remove the reverse unit from the brush holder and pound the metal shaft out with a punch.Sand and lube the shaft and file the inside of the plastic coil holder with a small file until shaft travels freely up n down.The hard part is rewiring some small wire filaments from the coil need to be soldered back in place.Two steps are annoying because they very sensitive to breaks in the track and will reverse direction.I have several and they are good runners but sensitive.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The 302 low smoke output issue is fairly straightforward. The 302 is a 4 wire engine so the smoke unit and headlight are wired in parallel with the armature and thus in series with the field. Therefor the voltage drop across the field reduces the voltage and current available to the smoke unit.
If there is an interest in the math here it is. Both the field and armature have a DC resistance of about 1.4 ohms. Operating at a constant 12V with 5 or 6 cars connected the 302 draws about 2A. This means the total AC impedance is 6 ohms. The difference between 6 ohms and 2.8 ohms is caused by the back EMF in the armature. So the smoke unit only sees 9.2V of the 12V on the track. This is why Gilbert added the 5th wire in 1952, the smoke output is much higher because with 5 wires the smoke unit would see the full 12V in this example.
Mopac provided a quick work around if the engine is wired as from the factory.
Here is a factory wiring diagram for a 302, colors added for clarity.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Lugodimarco789 added an excellent repair writeup for a two step reverse unit. My personal experience from 20 years ago is the repair is challenging for those like me who have inadequate patience. But it can be done. 
When I run a 21004 PRR B6Sb switcher the engine will change direction several time in an operating session no matter the track cleanliness. When running a 21130 Hudson with the longer trucks and sliding pickups operation is flawless with no spontaneous reversing. I would buy an electronic reverse unit for the 21085, put it in the tender and run 5 wires back to the engine. It is by far the easiest fix, it is permanent and it operates silently. Plus after 7 seconds the engine always restarts in forward.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I would like that feature of starting in forward.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AmFlyer said:


> The 302 low smoke output issue is fairly straightforward. The 302 is a 4 wire engine so the smoke unit and headlight are wired in parallel with the armature and thus in series with the field. Therefor the voltage drop across the field reduces the voltage and current available to the smoke unit.
> If there is an interest in the math here it is. Both the field and armature have a DC resistance of about 1.4 ohms. Operating at a constant 12V with 5 or 6 cars connected the 302 draws about 2A. This means the total AC impedance is 6 ohms. The difference between 6 ohms and 2.8 ohms is caused by the back EMF in the armature. So the smoke unit only sees 9.2V of the 12V on the track. This is why Gilbert added the 5th wire in 1952, the smoke output is much higher because with 5 wires the smoke unit would see the full 12V in this example.
> Mopac provided a quick work around if the engine is wired as from the factory.
> Here is a factory wiring diagram for a 302, colors added for clarity.
> ...


I've been using this wiring diagram for over 30 years....mine is B&W though...nice, thanks for posting.


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