# Sticky  Lionel's 027 Torpedo locomotives- A case study.



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I became intrigued with the Lionel 1688E, after reading an article posted on CTT magazine's Forum. The article was a reprint under "Timeless Classics" as one of the features of the forum. The original article was published back in 2005, authored by John A. Grams (now deceased), who highlighted an odd 1688E that didn't look like all the others. The article stated that most of the 1688/1688E locos were all pretty common, except for the one he wrote the article about. It was the very first issued 1688E, made only in 1936, that had Forward facing open windows in the cab. When you look at the multitude of 1688's, whether 1688 or 1688E, at least 98-99% don't have that feature. When the article was written, he stated that they (presumed other collectors) didn't know how many were made, or how many are still out there.

I decided to search mostly eBay, and other sites to see if I could find one. As luck would have it, I did find one, and later two more. I presently own three of these first issues from 1936. While doing my searching I started to see a whole lot of different characteristics, that made me think that they were not all common, as most would think. An interesting note about the body/shell of these locos, is that the same body was used on Lionel's 1588 wind-up, and the 1668/1668E locos. 

The only reference at the beginning of my searching, consisted of Doyle's Catalog of Prewar, but very little was found showing all the different changes in the casting, that I was noticing. I then started to do some deep research, and have been doing it for at least 5 months, looking at thousands of photos, buying different bodies, and sometimes a complete loco. I later purchased Greenberg's Guide to Lionel 1901-1942, Vol. II, "0 & 00 Gauges. That book showed and noted variations, from different known collectors, who provided the entries into his Guide. The 1688/1688E listed 8 variations. The 1668/E he showed 3 variations, and only one variation for the 1588. That total of all three loco bodies came to 12. I have since found, the combination of all three locos, a total of 26 variations. The 1688/E has a total of 18 by itself.

Attached is a PDF file of what I found, with additional information pertinent to Lionel's manufacturing process. The PDF file is 4 pages long, but if you have any interest in Lionel's production of the 027 version of the Loewy Torpedo, check it out. There was one omission, from the 1588 list. The third version, did not have a roof hatch, or the Winged Keystone.

View attachment Rev. 1-Variations of the Lionel Torpedo Castings.pdf


The PDF file is repeated in Post #40, of this thread. The original PDF file that was included in this post, had errors, and I have replaced that file, with the updated version.


This is a photo of the Open Window version


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wow doc, nice work. I was atually a few years back bidding on one with only one number plate. I decided to stop bidding because I thought it was damaged and filled in with bonds to hide the zinc pest. Now I know better&#55357;&#56838; I'll re read this and compare it to mine. Nice to know this info exists. Why not send it in to one of the other guage magazines?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Well now you know better. I have both the 1688 and the 1668 single plate version. If you look at the side with no provision for the plate, they took the original casting of the 1588 wind up, where the key would pass through the side, and that is the casting used to create these single plate versions. The only glitch is that the inside of the cab has a solid firewall, and not an open cab wall. Lionel modified the castings as needed. The 1588 and the 1936 casting of the 1688E have the open cab wall, which was eliminated from 1937 onward.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I should, and do now, but a few years ago I didn't! And reading through your detailed cataloging of the diffrent versions, I remembered the one that got away. ( probably the 1000 that got away)


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*1936 Issued 1688E compared to later versions*

Here are a few photos to show the difference, and the determination for a 1936 issued 1688E, as compared to the later issued bodies. The 1936 version is very easy to spot, with these telltale castings. The raised roof hatch never was issued after 1936, nor was the cab firewall open. In 1937 the firebox wall was cast into the body. The early 1936 bodies were what many refer to as the "thin cast", and in 1937 to the end of production the cast was made thicker. Apparently to alleviate breakage on the nose of the loco body.
















As time permits, I will try to add other photos later, to show some of the casting changes that took place during the years this body was produced. Of the ones that I own, they are in various stages of restoration, minus motors, some trim pieces, etc.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*The three motors used in 1688's*

Below are the three (NOT TWO) versions of motors used in the production of the 1688/1688E locos. Version one was the first motor used, marked Lionel Jr., that was later labelled Lionel 027, with different wheels. Version two used a single lateral screw that passed through the body, near the rear, and it not very common. The third version motor looks very much like the Postwar 1654 motor, the only difference being the rear wheels had elongated hubs, for the linkage on the 1688. The wheels were changed to eliminate the hubs, and was re-issued in Postwar for the 1654.








The above is Type 1 motor








Above is Type 2 motor








Above is Type 3 motor


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Winged Keystone 1936 ONLY*

Below are photos of the Winged Keystone found only on 1936 issued torpedo shells. The same feature was used on the 1588 windup loco, issued in 1936, which also shared the raised roof hatch on the 1588 windup. These features were eliminated starting with the 1937 issue, and remained that way until 1941.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Sand dome & Safety Valves*

The 1588, 1668, & 1688 all share the same die casting, with minor variations throughout the years of production. The 1588 was made in only 1936, which had the raised roof hatch, some with the Keystone, some without, and an open firebox wall, exclusive to 1936 issues. The sand dome and the safety valves on the 1588 were integral to the casting. The 1668 and 1688 versions had nickel domes and valves inserted into the body, as an added part. Here is a shot of a 1588, along with a 1688 shell.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice info doc. And the pictures make it easier to spot the differences.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That was something I needed to add, so that viewers of the thread can see a visual. As I can amass the photos, and group them so they appear coherent with the thread, I will continue posting. I have another shell I am bidding on, and should get it cheap. It is one that I don't have in my collection of variations. 

Anyone that has any question about these locos, I will gladly answer. Some of the bodies are Rarer than others, as far as how many made, but not what I consider Rare for resale value.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The PDF file in the initial post can be downloaded by anyone that needs to save it. All the PDF files that I have added here in the forum, in various sections are all available to download for your own purposes. It is there for everyone to share.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I found another unknown 1688E variation that falls between a 1936 version and a 1937 version. It has all the typical earmarks of being 1936 vintage with the open firebox wall, but does not have the typical roof hatch found on all 1936 bodies. The variations are mind boggling, if you know what to look for.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Received 1688E Black 1936 version with roof hatch and NO keystone in today's mail, and won the auction on the newly found version in the above post. The newly found version doesn't have the keystone or the raised roof hatch, but the firebox wall is open, to where you can visually see the motor looking inside the cab. I missed the bid on the first one I saw, but did win the second one. The way some versions are identified in the Greenberg Catalog, are simply number plate variations of 1688 or 1688E, and others are listed as either Gunmetal Gray or Black. I am trying to collect the obscure body change variations, to actually have them all. Just have to keep looking!!!!

I think I only need 3 more of both 1688 or 1668 locos.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Some additional Photos*

Thought it was time to add a few photos, showing some basics and some unique Torpedoes.

This is the Type I body, where the motor is mounted with 2 screws through the running boards. This style was used throughout 1936-1938








This is the Type I motor, with the flat horizontal plate, mounted through the running boards. There are actually two variations of this motor, with the earliest one marked Lionel Jr., 8 spoke wheels. The other version is marked Lionel 027, 12 spoke wheels.








This is the second version of body, (not very common), that uses a single 2 1/4" screw through the body to mount the motor.








This is the Type II motor that has two tabs with holes for the screw to pass through the body, motor, and thread into opposite side.








This is the third type body, issued in 1940, that used what is referred to as the Die Cast Motor (identical to a Postwar 1654 motor.








This is the Type III motor, used on the last version of the 1688, and is identical to a Postwar 1654 (single reduction motor)








This a photo of the 3/4" square roof hatch that is ONLY found on 1936 issues, which was eliminated by 1937.








This is a photo of the "Winged Keystone", ONLY found on 1936 issues, which was sporadically used, but eliminated by 1937.








This is a photo of a 1688 body, that has a countersink hole between the safety valves and the cab, which is the type of motor mount that was common on the 1668/1668E 2-6-2 locos.








This is a photo of a 1668 (2-6-2) loco, that has two extra holes on the side like the motor mounting holes would be for the third version Die Cast motor 1688.








These are some of the variations that can be found, when you look closely at the different bodies. The placement of the slot of the E unit, is the telltale mark of what loco you have. The type I & II motors of the 1688 are in the same spot. The die cast motor has the slot moved back. The 1668/1668E has the slot forward behind the smoke stack.

I personally own every single body variation of the 1588, 1688, & 1668, and the motors used, with the exception of the Wind Up motor for the 1588. Not many survived from 1936, and are expensive if you do find one that is complete.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They are nice doc. And I think they run pretty good for old stuff. No with your inspiration, I'm off to the flee market to look for trains I don't need.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sjm911, So didn't we just get a New Vehicle....and now you need a model train fix????? Find something good. Do you have any decent flea markets up near you??


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Teledoc has been diagnosed with a severe case of Torpedolightnisess*.

*The only known cure is to get as many torpedo locomotives as one can fine. 

I am willing to bet that there are a few more waiting to be discovered.:smokin:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

It must be a carryover from my Navy days, serving on Submarines, that draws me to "Torpedoes"......

It really started with the CTT article about the least known version with Open Forward facing Windows, and my quest to find one. I now own three of that versions, but started to notice subtle differences with all the ones I viewed. Greenberg's book was the only source that listed variations that they knew, when the book was printed. His list of 1688/1688E only had 8 variations. I found 18, just on that loco.

The 1588, 1688, & 1668 all came from the basic shell, and I can probably answer any question about them including the different motors used on the 1688's.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Went to Collingwood. Found a bunch of g track, but a ive got a ton of that sitting around too. So no train stuff for me. The jeep looked good with a dollar store flag flying behind it. Probably made in China, so I counted the stars and stripes to make sure it was correct. Last miniut decision, my flags usually are usa made. I figure at least were getting some jobs by purchasing there.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

One wonders why the molds kept changing for the torpedo locomotives, maybe when they wore out they just started over.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Lionel's Body Molds*

The first issues from 1936 were only the 1588 wind-up, and the 1688E, that have the open firebox wall, roof hatch, and some, but not all with the winged keystone. The 1936 issues were the "Thin Casting", which made certain parts of the body more susceptible to breakage. That is what I think was one of the reasons they eliminated the Open forward window version. The 1937 and later castings were the "Thick Castings", and the Open Forward window was totally eliminated. I actually weighed them both (Body only) and the thin cast is 13.9 Oz., vs. thick cast at 21.0 Oz..

Looking through all the different body changes with different holes for E units, motor mounting holes, etc., it became apparent to me that the bodies came out of the mold in what I would call a 'Green State', without any holes in the initial shell. The holes were machined afterward, depending on which configuration they wanted to use the body. Through the years of production, certain areas got beefed up in various locations, depending on what the final product would be. 

I have some more photos to take, and I need to get a shot of the 1588, 1688 & 1668 side by side, to show how the "Single Number Plate" versions came to be. When you look at the 1588, it only had one plate, and the hole for the Key was on the opposite side, and not provision for a Number Plate was made with that casting. The 1688 and 1668 with the Single Number Plates were bodies that should have been used for the 1588, and that is why those variations were made. They used a leftover 1588 body, and machined the appropriate holes for motor mounts, and E unit slots. As you can see, I did a lot of studying these various bodies, and the multitude of variations that can be found.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's a big difference, half again the weight. It probably helps with traction too. 

You can get lost in countless variations of a model that's been around that long.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Thank you Teledoc for all the information. Now you got me interested in the torpedos. It is amazing how many different varieties.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Single Nameplate Torpedos*

Here is a comparison of the 1588, which originally had only one nameplate, and how the 1688E and 1668E single plate versions came about. The nameplates are only on the left sides of each loco, and none or any holes to mount a nameplate on the right side. The only odd thing is the 1668E which is a later issue with the THICK Casting, compared to the other two with the THIN casting. Lionel workers probably had bins of loco bodies, to pick from, and thus they created odd variations, during the run from 1936 to 1940. The E unit slot location is the identifier of what loco is which. The two on the left are the 1588 and 1688E from 1936, with the open firebox wall and thin casting, and the right one is the 1668E from 1937, which is the thick casting, and a closed firebox wall.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

I think what grabs me is they are like the N&W J, and other bullet nose streamline steamers. They are my favorite of the streamliners.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*A Totally Unique Body from 1936*

This is the last 1688 body that I added to my collection, which is undeniably from 1936 because of the open firebox wall, and a thin casting. This had to have been produced at the very end of 1936, and part of the transition from having the "Roof Hatch" to the later 1937 issues without a Roof Hatch.

I have only seen two in my searches, and I own one of them.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

This is a body that I purchased from eBay, because it is the only one I have ever seen. I initially thought it might be a Factory Error, but with some prompting from Tjcruiser, who thought it was a Lionel Prototype, I have to agree. When I bought this body, along with three other bodies, it was painted red on the outside, but the under side was original Gunmetal Gray. I have since repainted it to Gunmetal, and am trying to decide if I want to put a motor in it.....which brings up the question of which motor?? I can install a 1688E motor, or I can install a 1668E motor, because of the additional holes for mounting.

































***Note the two E unit slots, and the extra motor mounting holes, & the small hole for 1668 motor linkage.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The paint job certainly improved the appearance!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Pages from Lionel's 1936 Catalog*

Below are two pages taken from the 1936 Lionel Catalog (reprint by Greenberg), which shows Lionel's Streamline trains. All considered part of their Lionel Jr. line, which was new for 1936. The three major locos for the 027 lineup were the 1688E, 1689E, and the 1700E locomotives. Also on the right side of the page with the 1700E, there is a small layout using different components available around this time. Looking at the components of the layout shown, I would guess it used a 913 Landscape w/Bungalow; #923 curved tunnel, and possibly the 1027 Transformer Station. It is a simple small layout, that could easily be reproduced, to match what is shown in the catalog.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

OK, I think I am hooked! I have the 1668 version shown at the bottom of this message. It is black, with 12 spoke wheels, Winged Keystone and the extra holes in the side like the 1688E Type III motor mounts. I am confused on the Winged Keystone. You said it was eliminated in the 1937 version of the 1688E but my guides show the 1668 beginning in 1937. Do you know how/when the transition?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Apparently we both have some confusion going on. The basic mold for the "027" Torpedos consisted of the 1588, 1688, & 1668. The 1588 was an 0-4-0 windup loco only in Black, made for 1936. The 1688 was a 2-4-2; and the 1668 was a 2-6-2 arrangement. 

Now I will only throw this in as a reference point, but doesn't belong with the 027 lineup. The "0" version similar to the above locos was the 238E. If you look at the front of the 238E, there is a plate under the smokestack, that is a "keystone" style emblem. The smaller size of the 027's didn't have room to attach a plate, so the initial first mold of 1936, had an indentation at that location. It only appeared on the 1588 or 1688 locos, but NOT on the 1668. 

The winged keystone was issued on the first runs and the original mold. The "Open forward facing window" version and the 1588 loco were what are referred to as Thin Casting. It was a pitfall that caused easy breakage, so in 1937, Lionel retooled the mold, and beefed up the casting to what is called Thick Casting.

The 1688/1688E was issued in 1936 and continued to 1941. The 1668/1668E was issued in 1937, which was now part of the "Thick Casting", which also added the closed cab firebox wall. Some of the unique variations that I posted are cases where a Lionel employee grabbed a body, that would have started out as one version. Your reference of the 1668 with the two extra holes in the side of the body, meant that that body should have been made into the 1688 with the third style motor (motor similar to a Postwar 1654), that used two lateral screws through the body. That same body also had an additional motor mounting hole (countersink) on top, that would be used for the 6 wheel motor of the 1668. The slots for plates, and holes for motor mounting were only done AFTER the casting was done by drilling or machining on a Solid body casting.

Does that clear things up, or did I confuse you more. If you do have the 1668 with 6 wheels, and the body has those two holes in the side, you have a unique variation!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And all without Zink rot it takes some time to find good ones! And , I will admit that Teledoc is the foremost expert on all things Lionel torpedo! You posted on the right forum.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

*Unique 1668 Pics*

Teledoc, I guess I ended up with another unique one. Check the pics on my 1668.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Unique version 1668*

Bluffbeach, Yes you have one of two semi rare versions. There are 4 normal variations which are 2 Black, 2 Gunmetal, 1668E plates and 1668 plates, to make up the normal issues. The two lesser known versions are the one that only has ONE name plate on the left side. Your version is the one that has the machined holes, that would have used the Die Cast motor in a late issue 1688, but wound up being issued as a 1668. I have that same loco in my "Torpedo" collection.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> Bluffbeach, Yes you have one of two semi rare versions. There are 4 normal variations which are 2 Black, 2 Gunmetal, 1668E plates and 1668 plates, to make up the normal issues. The two lesser known versions are the one that only has ONE name plate on the left side. Your version is the one that has the machined holes, that would have used the Die Cast motor in a late issue 1688, but wound up being issued as a 1668. I have that same loco in my "Torpedo" collection.


The Doc's Torpedo alarm must have went off. 
Talk about hit and run.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

This is an awesome thread.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Another version found*

One of the body castings that I purchased from eBay was very unique in the fact that it has E unit lever slots for mounting the motors used in a 1688E or a 1668E, which are either a 2-4-2 or a 2-6-2 arrangement. The body casting is used by both locomotives, along with the earliest 1588 windup loco. The body that I own, is most likely a 1937 issued casting because of the Thick Casting and Closed Firebox Wall, that was introduced for that year. The 1936 body castings are thinner, and probably had problems with breakage, which Lionel rectified with the 1937 re-issue. One feature of the 1936 early bodies found on 98-99% found, is an Open Firebox Wall, where the motor is visible from the back of the loco. In 1937, that feature was modified and the Firebox Wall was added, along with making the casting thicker.

Here is the newly found 1668 loco, only due to the fact that it is complete, and has the 2-6-2 motor installed. This listed version is a "Prototype" body, similar to the RED painted one that I own, but is the Early 1936 Thin Casting. I tried bidding, but lost out to a higher bidder. If I had won the bid, I would have both the Thin and Thick casting Prototypes bodies. Such is life.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Very interesting.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Just when I thought I had found all the variations, another example shows up. What surprised me was the difference of closed and open "Firebox Wall" and the thin/thick casting of these two latest finds. It definitely dates both to the end of 1936 into 1937.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*New updated PDF file with additional info*

Since finding basically two new versions within the last few days, I decided to update the original PDF file, to show the new additions found. The updated info is all the way at the bottom of the original file, but this is the updated version.

**** There is an addition to #4, which should be numbered 4B. This is also late transition, the same as 4A, but “Open Firebox Wall, & Thin Casting”. .There was an addition that was omitted in the 1588 section, that would describe the casting NOT having the Keystone or Roof Hatch, as noted on the other two****

View attachment Rev. 1-Variations of the Lionel Torpedo Castings.pdf


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

This is one of the best most researched threads I have read on the forum. It would be a great sticky.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

*Damn the Torpedoes, Full Steam Ahead!!!*

Sorry Doc but I couldn't resist the subject line!
I have the opportunity to bid on two 1588 sets. One is a freight and the other passenger. I have seen the passenger set a few times. This time I looked up the cars, 1673-1675??, and found descriptions in Greenberg's that did not match the solid red cars I find. Any guidance on the rarity or authenticity of the two sets in attachments?
Thanks!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*1588 Clockwork Sets*

Both of the Sets you show are correct, with only thing missing is 8 curve and 2 straight tracks (2-rail), as they would have been issued. Two Rail as they are wind-up, and no need for center pickup rail. The Passenger Set is ONLY RED, one book lists Orange with NRS (NO REPORTED SALES) ever being actually produced. The 1673 is Coach, 1674 is Pullman, 1675 is Observation, with only the coach having a coupler to attach to tender. The Passenger Set was offered from Lionel as Set#1548, and for Sears as Set#5134 offered for sale in 1936-1937 only. The freight set shown is also correct, with correct cars & numbers as offered for sale. Lionel Set#1549 and Sears Set#5136. Also missing are the track. 

To find any 1588 that is 100% intact with the wind-up motor is quite rare, as there were not many of the 1588's made, and Lionel had a problem with Zinc Pest on the motors and especially the whistle mechanism at the front of the motor. You will often find a few 1588's up for auction, but only the actual body, and not a complete 1588 with the motor installed. For Rarity, I would put it on the high end of the scale of 1 to 7 with 7 being the rarest. They command a stiff price for just the Loco and Tender, without the added cars. A few owners of a 1588 that was purchased as just the body, have adapted Marx Wind-up motors to get them in a running condition.

A little known fact with the wind-up from Lionel, was that they were only offered in the two year period of 1936 & 1937. Lionel struck a deal with Hafner and had them use their wind-up motors, BUT to ONLY be sold in Europe, and not in the U.S. Hafner Toy Co. started in 1901, at the same time as Lionel, and a few others, but Hafner never made any Electrified trains, and only produced Clockwork locos, which were more reliable than Lionel's clockwork.

The price for what is being auctioned, (Condition looks Very Good to Excellent) would be in a ball-park range of $350+ each, even without the boxes. Both Sets are Very Very desirable.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Similar Passenger cars....BUT!!*

I have the majority of Greenberg Guides, with emphasis on Prewar, and I don't see anything other than RED passenger cars with the 1588. You may have another series from the same period, confused with the 1588 loco. 

Lionel produced a motorized 1700 Streamline loco, with the 1701, 1702 & 1703 passenger cars with red painted frames and chrome tops. Lionel then made the Clockwork version, and renumbered the loco to #1816, with an 1817 & 1818 passenger setup. The 1817 & 1818 came in both Orange/Chrome or Red/chrome color schemes. Theoretically the 1817 and 1818 were reissues of the 1700 series, and just renumbered for clarity, if sold separately. The 1816 if in ORANGE, was referred to as "The Silver Streak". Minor variation would be if the chrome sides were smooth or fluted, with no difference in value.


*1700 SERIES BELOW*








*1816 SERIES BELOW*


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Dam you both for posting pictures of cool stuff that somehow I now need!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sjm9911, They carry stiff asking prices if in complete & running condition. Lionel didn't rely on Clockwork trains, as Hafner did. Lionel only produced the less expensive trains in the middle of the 1930's, to get them past the depression. They only made roughly 8-10 different clockworks in 1935-1937.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

*Over run by Wind Ups*



sjm9911 said:


> Dam you both for posting pictures of cool stuff that somehow I now need!


Teledoc, I have to agree with sjm9911. The same auction also has a 1535 Set which is basically the 1816 series you showed. I may need to break open the piggy bank.







Not to be stubborn but the attachment is the page from my Gb showing the odd description for the 1673. Glad you clarified since I favor that one. I don't think I can surpass my 1070E set as far as a Torpedo freight set is concerned.

I has asked the auctioneer for more info on the 1588's and the 1816. Keeping my fingers crossed!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I didn't go into specific detail about the trim color, as it isn't actually stated in the Guide book. The only significant trim deviation is fluted or smooth side chrome. You reference is just a price guide. The books I have are full blown Guide books, with known variations listed, values based on condition, etc. My guide books have photos of a majority of what is listed. I have a few hundred dollars worth of Lionel Gudes, covering 2 7/8 & Standard Gauge, Prewar 0 & 00 gauge, 1 book on Ives/Hafner/Dorian locos, and about 6 books on Postwar. That is where all this info comes from, and I can typically answer any question on Lionel.

As mentioned previously, don't be surprised at what either Set sells for, with last minute "Snipe" bids. Anything under $250 will be a bargain.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Teledoc, I didn't doubt you for a second! Just wanted you to see the source of my confusion. I don't doubt I will be sniped but sometimes I am very lucky.
Did you by chance see my post about a New Haven 0217? I have asked the auctioneer for more pics but it seems to have everyone stumped.
Thanks again!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Duffy, After looking at your Price Guide description I decided to investigate a little. It seems that the Price Guides (no matter what year, I have 2008 edition) has an error with regard to the 1673 Coach. If you notice the Aluminum or Gray windows is only mentioned for the 1673 and not the others. The 1673, 74, 75 are completely RED only. I suspect someone erroneously took the colors of the 1700 series cars which would have had Chrome or Silver painted sides, as variations of the 1700 series. OF the 4 Guide books I own, none mention anything deviating on the 1673 car. That notation of the two colors only shows up in the price guides, and was never caught and corrected.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

*Auction Success (I Think??)*

Well after waiting about a month, my auction happened! I did get the 1588 Streamliner set #1548. This is the only Streamliner I own.























I couldn't resist the Mickey Freight set #1532. 

Ironically the 1588 Freight set went for less than either of these. I passed on this one
Just shows how fickle these auctions are!

I am finding there are more auctions than I can keep up with. Probably a good thing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

bluffbeach said:


> I am finding there are more auctions than I can keep up with. Probably a good thing.


Depends on the depth of your wallet, it might be a bad thing!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I love a local auction. Train auctions are less appealing due to increase in the competition. Luckily my wallet is slim so I have to zero in on a few items and work it out from there. Even at an ordinary auction with some trains, was a frenzy .


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

*Discussion with Auctioneer*



teledoc said:


> Both of the Sets you show are correct, with only thing missing is 8 curve and 2 straight tracks (2-rail), as they would have been issued. Two Rail as they are wind-up, and no need for center pickup rail. The Passenger Set is ONLY RED, one book lists Orange with NRS (NO REPORTED SALES) ever being actually produced. The 1673 is Coach, 1674 is Pullman, 1675 is Observation, with only the coach having a coupler to attach to tender. The Passenger Set was offered from Lionel as Set#1548, and for Sears as Set#5134 offered for sale in 1936-1937 only. The freight set shown is also correct, with correct cars & numbers as offered for sale. Lionel Set#1549 and Sears Set#5136. Also missing are the track.


Teledoc, I want to confirm your description of the 1548 "set". I received my "set" and it contains two 1673 coaches and no 1674 pullman. 
My auction 1588.







Auction 1588 whistle unit







Auction 1588 and 1588 Btms. Note tender coupler missing.







Auction 1673







Ebay 1673,1674,1675








Notice the difference between my coach coupler and the one I found out on Ebay. Is mine correct? I also will need to find a coupler for the tender. Ideas?

My last question is: How hard should I go after the auctioneer since this is not a set? I will need to look for a 1674 Pullman.
Big Difference in value?

I have not even run it yet but need to email the auctioneer today or tomorrow. Appreciate your thoughts.

Any problem running these on three rail track?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Duff, Looking at your last picture with the 3 cars side by side, I have to say that you actually have the 1673, 1674, and 1675. IF I am correct, the left side should be the 1675 Observation Car. The car in the middle appears to be the 1674 car, and the right side is the 1673. Do two of the cars have the vestibules, that would attach with the long pin through the body? The middle car and the one on the right side of the photo, don't have the same ends. The middle car is fully open, and the one on the right appears like a doorway opening. If that is the case, you have the correct cars.

The coupler is wrong on the one shown. The correct coupler should be a 1688T-8 long shank HOOK COUPLER, and not a Latch coupler as shown.

If I am wrong with my assessment of the Coach and Pullman, let me see different views of the ends of the cars.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Doc,
I did not label the pics properly. I received two 1673's and no 1674. I edited the entry to keep this thread accurate. It is one of the best, most complete I have seen thanks to you. I am asking about taking the auctioneer to task, about the "set" description, because there was no 1674. The Ebay cars are a full set and look restored.
I thought the latch coupler looked wrong. I will find the correct coupler for the tender. THANKS for the correct part number. It will make things easier.
Finally ran the 1588 and tender, great with the whistle on and off. Looking forward to seeing the whole set running around. 
The 1506 Mickey engine is a beast! The bell didn't slow it down much and it rolled on the 3rd curve. Hoping Mickey tender and the other cars will slow it down. Do you think 3 rail track will harm the Mickey tender?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Duff, If I am looking at your photo of the three cars side by side, all three look different from each other, from the angle you used. I copied the photo, and labeled the cars as I see them, compared to other photos of the cars from a 1936 Catalog, and the various books that show photos. Here is the photo with labels, as I see them.








The car labeled Coach looks like the end wall has a "Doorway", and is partially closed in on the two side of the doorway. The Pullman labeled one, shows the end fully open, with the Observation car on the right. Do the middle and right side cars look identical, and you just didn't give me a correct angle to compare??

The 3 rail track may work, but I am not 100% positive. All you can do, is give it a try. There is specific track to activate the shovel mechanism in the Stoker. I would have to do some real digging to get the right track identity.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Doc,
The three cars are not the ones I bought. I agree with your description. The single car is the Coach I did buy and received two instead of one Coach and one Pullman. Do you think there is a big difference in value between the correct set and two Coaches and an Observation?
I will play with the Mickey tender and three rail. No need to take more of your time.
Overall I am very pleased with what I received. I am finding that you have to be very specific with the auction houses about what the lot really contains. The other one I asked you about (263E/263W) finally conceded they screwed up and will revoke the auction.
Maybe you should get a job as a consultant for these guys????


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Now it makes a little more sense that the photo is not your set. I was under the assumption that they were what you bid on. I have no idea what you paid, but I would be satisfied with what you got. I would just be on the lookout for the connect car. I am slowly searching for a decent set of those passenger cars, myself. I have the Coach only, at present.

The 263e is now in your favor, and they plan on rectifying the situation.

Many sellers including Auction houses that deal with trains don't have the time to understand the little idiosyncrasies of certain trains and their variations. Many assume that they have what would be considered a set, when it really isn't. All they want is to make the sale. I just happened to read an article about the 1688E, that I had never seen before. When I started researching, I soon realized there were many variations, and I decided to document my findings. This thread is the results of what I found. I just decided to share it with others. It seems interesting enough that there have been over 3000 views. I just enjoy the research, and if it seems interesting enough, I share my findings.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Doc,
When it rains, it pours. Check this auction out.

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/49793613_vintage-wind-up-lionel-steam-locomotive-torpedo-style

Never know what it might go for!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I guess you might bid on it?????? I just sent you a PM about my newest purchase of the passenger cars. OF course the seller listed them as the 1700 series cars, which they are definitely not. They are the 1673, 74, 75 that goes with the 1588/1588T to make up the Set #1548. I will have to try and get enough 2 rail track to be able to use it as intended. 

Are you getting to the point that you can't control yourself with unique Tinplate.....???


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Did I ever tell you that back in July I bought two Marx wind ups? I did it more as a lark (for $30) and put them away for another day. Just looked at the description and I apparently have 28 sections of two rail track. Want me to pull it out and see how far it goes?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Curious does the 1668 pull a few more cars than the 1688 because of the weight of the extra wheel set or maybe a difference in the motor
also ?


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

*Old Sacramento Train Museum*

Anyone that is into tinplate has to put this on their bucket list! I am visiting relatives in Davis, CA while driving a 1991 Land Cruiser from Portland, OR back home to Amelia Island, FL. 
I had forgotten that the Central Pacific started from Sacramento heading east to join the Union Pacific. The real loco's and cars they have are hard to imagine.
On the top floor they have model trains. I am still a novice but I have never seen so many Standard Gauge trains on display AND in operation. I highly recommend it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Dieseler, I just weighed both motors as a comparison of the weights. The 1688 motor weighs 15.6 oz. versus the 1668 motor weighing in at 20.6 oz.. So with the extra wheelset of the 1668 @ 20.6 oz., would most likely be a stronger puller, against the lighter 1688.

I also weighed the bodies of the 1668 at 22.8 oz., and both the "Thin Cast 1936 version" weighs 13.8 oz., and the "Thick 1937-1941 version" weighing 21.1 oz.. The 1668 total weight about 43.4 oz. give or take. The 1688 comes in at 29.4 oz. thin cast; 36.7 oz. in the thick casting. I have all the casting variations of both the 1668's and 1688's plus the wind up 1588, which wasn't calculated.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

teledoc said:


> Dieseler, I just weighed both motors as a comparison of the weights. The 1688 motor weighs 15.6 oz. versus the 1668 motor weighing in at 20.6 oz.. So with the extra wheelset of the 1668 @ 20.6 oz., would most likely be a stronger puller, against the lighter 1688.
> 
> I also weighed the bodies of the 1668 at 22.8 oz., and both the "Thin Cast 1936 version" weighs 13.8 oz., and the "Thick 1937-1941 version" weighing 21.1 oz.. The 1668 total weight about 43.4 oz. give or take. The 1688 comes in at 29.4 oz. thin cast; 36.7 oz. in the thick casting. I have all the casting variations of both the 1668's and 1688's plus the wind up 1588, which wasn't calculated.


Thank you for taking the time weighing them and helping me it is appreciated and helps in deciding on which to eventually purchase to have fun with and pull and extra car or two.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Dieseler, Not a problem, as I have a postal scale, and still have the locos to finish assembling back to running order. I need some parts to complete assembling the motors, such as axles and wheels. The wheel sets are kind of expensive, and can only be ordered in a complete set of four. I also need to put E units back together, as I have them in pieces, without the drums. Have fun deciding in which one, and any questions, just fire away.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Henning's Trains may have the wheels you need now, they are producing the Model Engineering Works wheels in quantity now.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks John for the heads up with Hennings. Some of the wheelsets need to be 8 spoke wheels to be correct. The later issues are 12 spoke, and one axle requires a hub for the linkage. I'm in no rush, but will have to check up later with what Hennings has to offer.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd call the store and speak to Harry "The Old Man" as he calls himself. He's the one that has his fingers on the pulse of what they have. Not all of them are listed on the website, and for stuff like this, Harry is a walking encyclopedia.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Research to appear in next Vol. of Greenberg Guide*

The research that was done to create the PDF file at the beginning of this thread was mailed to Bruce C. Greenberg about a week ago. I just received an email back from him, and he was surprised by what I had uncovered with all the variations of the Loewy Torpedo castings. The next issue of an update on the Prewar Locos will appear near the end of 2017. He will be adding my research in the new issue, giving me credit for the work that was done, along with photos.

Now I have to finish assembling all the pieces of the variations.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Kinda' cool to be published.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The funny thing about it, I was reading an article from CTT, in "Timeless Classics" with the unknown version of a 1688E and Open Forward facing windows. I decided to try to find that version, (I now own three), and all the versions I looked at were different from each other. I had to document it, to establish all the variations I saw. The Greenberg Guide only touched on 8 versions of the 1688/1688E. I found 18+ of just the 1688/1688E. It extended into the shared body of the 1588 & 1668. Now it will be in print eventually.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Congratulations teledoc on your research being in Greeberg's book in the near future.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks Dieseler, and it was fun doing the research. It took close to a year of looking at all the one's listed for sale on auction sites, and deciding to buy the various different ones to document what I compiled. Along with learning all the variations, it became apparent that the 1935-1936 time frame was a major turning point in Lionel's surviving the Depression era, and moving forward to what it became during the late Prewar into Postwar era. This time frame was the major starting point of Lionel gearing more toward O and 027 gauge trains, and getting away from the more expensive Standard Gauge offerings. It made it more affordable, to buyers to get into the O and 027 aspect. I learned a lot while doing the research, but it was fun doing it.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Great thread! I was made aware of the open front window torpedo & have been looking for one myself ever since.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, You will be hard pressed to find the open window version, and I was made aware of it from an article in CTT's "Timeless Classics". I initially didn't think much of any of the "Torpedo locos", but that article spurred me into searching for that elusive version. As the article was written, it stated that they have no idea how many were made with that feature. I own three of them, and know that there were nine others offered on eBay. It was during my searching that I discovered how many slight variations there were, from 1936-1941. This loco was one of the most produced during that period. I have all the major body variations, and it will be in Greenberg's next Prewar book, that he is presently working on. Have fun trying to locate one.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

There was one on e-bay several months back but I was unsuccessful winning it. It was in some kind of rough shape but that didn't bother me. I've been keeping my eyes out & one will surface soon enough.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Rough shape isn't a bad thing. The motors are easy to rehab, with the only major issue being the need for original 8 spoke wheels, that go for $40+ shipping for complete set of four. The paint isn't an issue either, if stripping it. Basically a piece of cake to make like new.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

teledoc said:


> Rough shape isn't a bad thing. The motors are easy to rehab, with the only major issue being the need for original 8 spoke wheels, that go for $40+ shipping for complete set of four. The paint isn't an issue either, if stripping it. Basically a piece of cake to make like new.


Agreed.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Another 1588 wind up version!!*

Just when I thought I had found and recorded all the versions of Lionel's "Torpedoes", I find one that I missed. The 1588 wind up, along with the 1668 & 1688, all share the same basic body casting. I know from my research. The one common thread to the 1936 issues, was the "Thin" casting, (1936 only), an open firebox wall, (motor visible looking into cab), a square roof hatch on the cab roof, and one version with the 'Winged Keystone', above the Headlight. The other version had no keystone. The newest find doesn't have the Keystone, nor does it have the roof hatch. The 1588 now has 3 known versions, instead of 2.

I still search all three locos to see if any new Unknown feature shows up. Oh, the mysteries of Prewar Tinplate!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Set No. 1548 with 1588 loco*

Below is the majority of components that comprised the 1548 Outfit, with the clockwork 1588 loco, and 1588T tender, followed by the passenger car set of the 1673 Coach, 1674 Pullman, & 1675 Observation Cars. These passenger cars ONLY came in Red, and never in Orange, (which contradicts one book), saying it was offered in both colors. No evidence of these cars ever being offered in Orange, has been documented. These cars also had NO journals, which is standard issue.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Set No. 1549 with 1588 loco*

This is the majority of Outfit 1549, which consists of the 1588 Clockwork loco, 1588T, 1512 Gondola, 1514 Boxcar (Baby Ruth), 1515 Tank car, and 1517 Caboose. The only thing missing, of photos is the 1512 gondola. Still in the hunt for the correct 1512, with red frame, to match this set. Finally found the elusive 1512 with the red frame, to complete both sets of freight cars.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice doc!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Thought it was time to post a few photos. The passenger cars aren't easy to find, but I'm lucky enough that I have two sets of these. I am waiting on my latest purchase of a newly found variation of the 1588 Clockwork. I only need to find the correct version of the 1512 Gondola, to complete that Outfit. It all comes down to correct colors, as issued. The freight set I have, used Red frames, versus the other Black framed cars. I have other stuff that I will post in the "Anything Goes" action. Been busy restoring a bundle of stuff that's been sitting around (saying...finish me next, No, I'm the next to get finished...).


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

To be honest, I would not have looked at the frame color until you mentioned it, I thought they were all black!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The freight cars were from the same seller, and having all the books I have, they are found in either Red or Black frames. I want to keep it the same color frames, as a Set. When it comes down to the early Tinplate items, you start to see slight differences, which goes well beyond just color. There are things like the type of couplers used, the trucks used, does it have journal boxes, or none. I depends on how deep you want to get into the small details. It's fun!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I was comfortable in my Postwar little world....UNTIL, I found some of the posts from TJcruiser and T-Man, and the many rescues of Tinplate junk, that most would have tossed out. The more I read, and looked at their finished products, I thought about trying it myself. Fatal mistake on my part, and the Addiction grabbed a hold of me, and I now realize there is NO cure for it. I see some of the forgotten messed up items, and say "l can rescue that, to a decent looking loco". It's surprising, after learning the basics of how things work, or how it gets wired, the early Prewar, and even Postwar stuff are pretty easy to fix, compared to today's complicated locos.
"TINPLATE IS WHERE ITS AT"!!!


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## Trent Bishop (Jun 8, 2015)

*Lionel 1688e*

Great post.Lots of info.I have two of these beauties.One sigle plated version and one double.http://www.modeltrainforum.com/images/smilies/smilie_daumenpos.gif


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## Trent Bishop (Jun 8, 2015)

I agree 100%. I have been saving and restoring tinplate lionel since I was 18.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Trent, You have some serious catching up to do. I have 15 bodies, most with motors, of the 1688/1688E, plus two 1689E's. I have all the major body variations of the 1688.


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## rdeal (Mar 6, 2013)

mr teledoc

did the 1688 pull passenger and or freight cars

i have a 1688E - engine runs OK and looks pretty nice for its age - but i wish i had a nicer looking tender - the one i have looks like it has been in a cat fight

thanks

rdeal


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rdeal said:


> i have a 1688E - engine runs OK and looks pretty nice for its age - but i wish i had a nicer looking tender - the one i have looks like it has been in a cat fight


Paint it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Rdeal, The 1688E from 1936 had a set #1069E/1069W, with passenger cars 1690, 1690, & 1691; 1688 from 1938 had a set #6314E with the same passenger cars. There are a total of 14 different sets from the whole range from 1936 up to 1941 that were freight car sets, with 1679 boxcar, 1680 tanker, 1682 caboose. The normal issued tender for the 1688/1688E would have been a 1689T or 1689W (whistle tender). There were two early Sets, one from 1936 and other from 1937 that had a consist of the 1673, 1674, 1675 RED passenger cars. 

The 1673, 74, 75 were usually found with the 1588/1588T wind up loco, dating to 1936. These passenger cars are not easy to find, but do show up occasionally on eBay. I own two sets of these passenger cars, with the 1588 windup loco combo.


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## rdeal (Mar 6, 2013)

is there a way to date the 1688E that if have

thank you

rdeal


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Rdeal, I have to ask if the inside of the cab is open, where you can see the motor, or does it have a closed wall with firebox doors. Also does it have a 3/4" square roof hatch, on top of the cab, and the plate on the bottom of the motor show "Lionel Jr.". If it has the roof hatch, with open cab, it dates to 1936. That casting is also what they refer to as the Thin Casting. If the cab wall is closed, it puts it at 1937 or later, and the motor plate on the bottom will show "Lionel 027", and this is the Thick Casting. I would need to see a left side photo, and a top view to get a close estimate of year. There are specific telltale signs, to look for.

To see the open cab versus closed cab, go to first page of this thread, and look at post #5.

If the motor is mounted with two screws passing through the side of the body, and the bottom plate is plastic with an "L" inside a circle, that would make it 1939 or later issue. Again, a set of photos would help.


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## Ace (Mar 30, 2016)

Could someone comment about how a prewar Lionel 1688/1668 compares to a postwar Dreyfuss-style 221 in terms of general size and proportions? I found the attached pic online. I happen to have a 221, an unfinished project needing paint and reassembly.

I reckon the 221 was Lionel's attempt to represent the latest in streamlined steam but the production was delayed until after WW2, and then it didn't fit the trends and profiles of postwar production. The 221 is low and wide and Lionel didn't match it up with appropriately proportioned streamlined passenger cars. The 221 wasn't in production very long, discontinued after 1947.

Do the 1600-1700-1800 prewar passenger cars have the right proportions to look good with a 221 loco? I suspect it would be difficult for me to find a set of those cars. Did those cars only come in complete sets with a loco?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

The 1668 (and 1688) locos and the 221 locos are nearly the exact same overall size ... about 9-3/8" long, just shy of 2-1/2" wide. The photo above (in your post) is accurate in terms of the comparison.

I'm not sure about the car size, though ...

Regards,

TJ


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## Ace (Mar 30, 2016)

tjcruiser said:


> The 1668 (and 1688) locos and the 221 locos are nearly the exact same overall size ... about 9-3/8" long, just shy of 2-1/2" wide. The photo above (in your post) is accurate in terms of the comparison.
> 
> I'm not sure about the car size, though ...
> 
> ...


Thanks TJ. Interesting thread here about all the Torpedo variations!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*221 Postwar and Passenger car comparison*

Ace, Apparently Lionel tried to extend the Torpedo body style as the 221 into Postwar era, and it was only offered in 1946-47. The passenger cars offered in the sets, were two 2430, & one 2431. The sets were considered 027 sets, which would be comparable to the Prewar 1668 Torpedo, also 027. The 1668 sets with passenger cars, included (2) 1690's & (1) 1691; or (4) 1701 coaches, (1) 1703, (1) 1702, which are the cars with vestibules, which would not look right with a 221. The other series, such as a 1630 & 1631, the 2600 series cars, would also look good matched to a 221. The only drawback would be the necessity to change out the trucks and couplers.

I would just stick with the 2430, 2430, & 2431, to have a correct Set as issued.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Just when I thought I was finished, and had ALL the versions researched, I found another variation of the 1588 Clockwork loco. The two previous versions had the Roof hatch, 1 with Winged Keystone, and the other without. The newest find is missing the roof hatch, and NO Winged Keystone, which was found from an old eBay auction. The first photo was lightened up, to show the missing Roof Hatch. The second photo, you can see a smooth roof line.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Unbelievable!

I am tempted to cut forward windows in the shape of a bat. Just to have aversion you don't.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I will be meeting with Bruce Greenberg, some time next year, probably in October at York. He wants to photograph all my variation, and discuss all the unique characteristics of each. Should be fun.


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, another torpedo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

teledoc said:


> I will be meeting with Bruce Greenberg, some time next year, probably in October at York. He wants to photograph all my variation, and discuss all the unique characteristics of each. Should be fun.


While you're talking to Bruce, ask him where they get the wacky prices in the Greenberg price guides.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

John, You will wait quite a while for the answer!!!! I think most of us know, but the time span from research, to actual print, doesn’t help. It all comes down to demand of something, and actual supply, to meet the demand. The internet, and auctions have Leveled the playing field.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That was a _tongue in cheek_ request.  I didn't really think I'd get an answer, at least one that actually made sense.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

John, I knew it was, and the prices are old by date of print. I have seen ridiculous pricing, quite a bit, and some individuals swear by the printed values. There are too many variables to take into account, if selling an item.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I decided to take another look at the 1588 locos I have, which were boxed away. Little did I realize that one of mine, is the version missing both features of Keystone & roof hatch. I actually had the newer found version, all along. By having the variations, there is no question as to validity of each one.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I know there just has to be at least one more out there waiting for you to discover. 

Damn.....:smokin::thumbsup:

Change your call handle to the "Torpedo Kid" ,


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Ed, I think I have all of them now. I also think I know why I got fixated on the Torpedo locos. I earned these back in 1967, which should link them to torpedoes.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> Unbelievable!
> 
> I am tempted to cut forward windows in the shape of a bat. Just to have aversion you don't.


:laugh:

Ha! We should tell Doc that we spotted a version with diamond-shaped windows, too, and another with double-hatches on the roof.

That'll drive him nuts ... he'll be hunting eBay and tag sales for weeks, without sleep ... desperately hunting for the White Whales!

(Good history-hunting, Doc ... always appreciated!)

TJ


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Ha! We should tell Doc that we spotted a version with diamond-shaped windows, too, and another with double-hatches on the roof.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the version where Bugs Bunny pops out of the smokestack occasionally.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, Okay, kick a man while he’s down....:smilie_auslachen::laugh::laugh:


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## Taylor622 (Jan 31, 2013)

Say Doc, I have a 1668. Did any of the torpedo locos come with smoke? There seems to be room and an open stack. Here are a couple of pictures. I removed the leading truck to see better. Has any one fitted a smoke unit? What would you recommend?


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## bluffbeach (Jul 1, 2016)

Sounds like total heresy to me!!


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Taylor622 said:


> Say Doc, I have a 1668. Did any of the torpedo locos come with smoke? There seems to be room and an open stack. Here are a couple of pictures. I removed the leading truck to see better. Has any one fitted a smoke unit? What would you recommend?


Nope. I have 4 torpedoes and never tried. That could be because I still can't solder to save my life though.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I seriously doubt that you could add smoke. I have no clue with any of the new style smoke units, only the Postwar types. The old style are too big, and need a way to “Pump” or Chuff to make it look realistic. Smoke units never appeared in any Prewar, and they weren’t introduced until Postwar. Someone asked about doing the same thing with a Prewar 258. Same answer, NOPE!!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't know, Doc. One of my 1688's smoked, once.

But that was because of faulty wiring! 

  

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I think there are a few of us that had a Non-Smoking loco, actually smoke for unknown reasons....ummmm!!


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I was amazed by this thread and all the 1688 and 1668 variations that have been found. I remembered discussing the variations of these on this forum years back with tjcruiser, but back then we were only aware of a small portion of the total variations that have been found since.

I have just been getting back into the toy train hobby after some years of being busy with other things, moving, etc. I recently went to a train show and happened to snag a 1069E set in boxes with a 1688E, 1689T, 1690/1691 passenger cars, and even the little 25-watt 1029 "Lionel Junior" transformer. It must have been calling to me because it was at the very first vendor I walked towards.

The 1688E in my recent set is the 1936 #2 variation which is a thin casting and has all of the original features except for the forward cab windows. Before this one I had never picked up a "thin casting" 1688, and boy was I surprised at how immediately obvious the difference was. This thing is LIGHT compared to the thick casting versions. It runs like a champ after basic servicing, but as I would expect it is more susceptible to wheel slip than the heavier thick casting 1688s. The "Jr" motor has plenty of power, but it really benefits from a little extra weight to keep the traction in check.

The other two 1688s (black 1688 and gray 1688E) I have are newer, thick casting versions, which I believe are #16 and #17 on the list. They're identical to each other aside from the nameplates and paint color.

There's a bit of weird greenish corrosion on the nickel trim parts on top of the loco. Any advice on how to clean that off safely without removing them? They seem like they weren't really intended to be taken off and put back on.

Also, a couple of the wheels are a little loose on their axles, not falling off but able to rotate just a little. They don't seem to be suffering from any zinc pest cracking otherwise, so is there a good method for just tightening them up without pulling them off and risking making them worse? Maybe squeezing some glue/loctite in there somehow? I've read that these 8 spoke wheels are pricey to replace if needed.

Anyway I'm having a blast with the new set so I figured I'd post some pictures of the loco here showing the #2 variation characteristics and maybe more of the set in the "show off your tinplate" thread later to give that thread a little action.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gerard, Your comment about the weight is, 12.8 oz. thin casting, 24oz. thick casting, of a completely bare shell. The greenish film, is nothing more than oxidation, and can be removed with a Scothbrite pad. The insert in the smokestack isn't meant to come out. I created that PDF, to help others that were looking at the Torpdoes, and how to identify all the variations. It started with reading an article in CTT, about the Open Forward window version. I was on the hunt to see if I could find one. In the searching, I kept noticing a whole lot of differences, of the 1588/1688/1668 castings As luck would have, I did score an open window version, and decided to get all the variations, excepting color, if the casting was the same. I own all the known variations, which I will be taking to York in less than a month. I will be meeting Bruce C. Greenberg, so he can photograph what I know, he doesn't have photos of. He is working on his next Guide, covering the 1930's in 0 gauge, which won't be out until 2020 sometime.

I now have two complete 1688E's with open forward windows, and (4) four other shells. They are out there, but don't show up that often. All were purchased from eBay. Any questions, just ask.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

The upcoming Greenberg book sounds awesome and I'd love to pick one of those up after release. 1930s O gauge is my favorite part of the toy train realm.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The 1930’s was a complete change for Lionel, compared to it’s beginnings. Lionel went through basically 5 marketing periods, starting in 1915. The first 2 were Electric locos, (1) 1915-1924; (2) 1924-1931 timeframe. Most were moderately expensive, for this period. Their 3rd period was Early Steam, (leaning away from Electrics), but offering Low priced sets.

Lionel was taking a huge gamble in 1929, when it bought out Ives, along with American Flyer. 1930 Lionel bought out American Flyer, to have complete control. The Depression of 1929, hurt many businesses, including Lionel. Lionel started to produce smaller, cheaper Tinplate, to stay competitive. They took a lot of the Ives late products, and made a slow transition, to their own labeled products. We had Winner Lines, Lionel-Ives, & Lionel Jr., from 1931-1936. During the decade from 1930-1940, they probably sold more than any other Prewar period. The offerings in the mid 1930’s made trains more affordable. This same timeframe saw the introduction to Die Casting, where Lionel used a nearby zinc alloy supplier, who produced a higher quality product. :smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gerard,

Nice find/score! Welcome to the 1688 streamliner club! The little Lionel Jr. motor is rather bulletproof ... not super powerful, but they do keep running and running.

Your loco/tender look amazingly clean and intact. Very nice!

I think you can likely remove much of the oxidation on the smokestack with a Scotchbrite pad, as Jerry suggested. Do be careful of the loco shell paint, though. You could also try a small Dremel wire brush (I'd start with brass or regular steel, not stainless) like this:

https://www.dremel.com/en_US/products/-/show-product/accessories/537-brass-brush

That should make easy work of the inside of the smokestack. The top/outside will take a bit more care, so as to avoid damaging the loco paint. Tape that area off, first, as best as possible. Handwork with the Scotchbrite might give you better control than the Dremel here.

You could Loctite your wheel axles, but do so with the axle pointed down, so gravity wicks the Loctite downward, no upward into the axle bearing.

Have fun!

TJ


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks TJ

I've really been a part of the 1688 fan club since I bought my first one back in 2010. When I first felt like getting back into the train hobby I started browsing eBay for old trains, and I looked at a whole lot of them. I came very close to going the Marx route at first, but I eventually stumbled across a listing for a 1688 and for whatever reason I just thought it was the coolest looking locomotive ever.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I spotted a thin casting 1688E on eBay which would fall in between #4 and #4A because it has the O27 motor tag but still retains the roof hatch. Of course it's possible that the motor has been swapped out, but if not it's yet another slight factory variation.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pr...team-Locomotive-Engine-Good-Cond/132771541798

Now that I know about all the little details I can't help but examine every one I come across. I will probably hold out on buying any more unless I come across some forward cab windows though.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The thin casting, roof hatch, & Open Firebox makes the body 1936 only. They didn’t go to “027” tags & 12 spoke wheels, until 1937, so I would guess the motor was replaced. The open forward window versions do pop up every so often. I actually have 6 of that version.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I didn't notice that it had the 12 spoke wheels also. So many details.

Since the Jr. and O27 Type 1 motors mount the same way it's probably not unusual for them to get swapped.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I actually think it is another version, that falls into the number 4 & 4A. As Lionel was getting to the end of 1936, they were using up the late edition body, and started to move into the 12 spoke, 027 tagged motors. Lionel changed over to 027 identification, starting in early 1937. The peened side rods were indicative of the 1936 version.

WENT BACK FOR ANOTHER LOOK!!! It is the SINGLE Number plate version. Only one number plate on left, no indentation for plate on the right side. The motor definitely was swapped!!
:smilie_daumenpos:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gerard, Did you by any chance take the suggestion for the Greenberg Guide I mentioned??


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Well it matches #4 aside from the motor.

Lionel clearly made a LOT of 1688s and with all the variations that have been found it seems like they probably just had pallets full of shells and boxes of all the other parts required to make a 1688, 1668, or 1588 and at times they just grabbed whatever shells and parts they had on hand and put them together even if they weren't an exact match. It's not unfathomable that a batch of 1936 thin castings might've hung around through 1937 and got mated with a newer batch of motors.

The one on eBay is also missing the leading truck, and a screw that holds in that front bracket, so it's probably been messed with at some point and not very good evidence of an "all original", but even if one looks totally untouched you really can't know for sure that it's never had a motor swap.

Edit: I did get your message about the book but it seems like someone else snagged it. I do have a Doyle book for prewar Lionel which is good, but I'll keep an eye out for some Greenbergs too.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

My guess is that during the 1936-1941 period, Lionel definitely cashed in on producing all the Torpedo variations (1588/1668/1688). They sold thousands in that span of time. I agree that Lionel workers grabbed bodies, and motors, and made some of these unique Torpedo loco’s.

The Doyle book is just a start, but he can’t publish any more Train books. He was sued by Paul V. Ambrose, and lost in court, and is banned from publishing new books on trains. The preferred book is Greenberg’s Guide to Prewar 1901-1942, Vol. II, 0 & 00 Gauge, until the new book comes out in 2020. Greenberg used serious old time collectors, and he goes into more detail, with descriptions and variations.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142981488526

I don't have any extras of the parts this would need, nor the expertise to give it the paint job it deserves, so if someone here is interested, have at it.

No affiliation to seller, just came across it.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanx for that. I put a bid on it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The temptation to bid was there, but I thought better to not bid. The price is fantastic, if it stays that low. This is the first issue from 1936, with the “open” forward facing windows, in the cab. I already have 6 of this variation, so adding another isn’t realistic.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

teledoc said:


> This is the first issue from 1936, with the “open” forward facing windows, in the cab.



Yep. That's why I jumped on it. I've been looking for one ever since I read your posts.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, If by chance you win this auction, the hardest item to locate will be the correct motor. Other than that, I compiled a list of what parts you need for a full restoration. The parts, if bought from Olsen’s Toy Train Parts, adds up to $37.80. If bought from Brasseurs(Train Doctor), the price for all the parts would be $18.50.

If the intent is to repaint it, following a strip job, I can explain what I did, and used for a few of my restorations. Time will tell, and good luck with the bidding.

Just remember I’m a few keystrokes away, if there are questions. Also, there is the correct motor in a 1668E on eBay right now.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I sent you a PM about an available motor, if you win your bid. It is totally correct with 8 spoke wheels that has the peened side rod attached. I listed the item number so you can see for yourself. Good luck.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I hope you get it balidas! I posted it here in hopes that a Torpedo fan would give it a good home.

As an alternative to buying a motor and parts, you could keep an eye out for an early 1688E with a broken shell and just swap all the parts over. I often see complete 1688Es sell really cheap, although the early ones with 8 spoke wheels can be harder to find, so teledoc's motor might be the way to go. It sounds like Brasseurs has some really good prices on the other stuff.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

teledoc said:


> Balidas, If by chance you win this auction, the hardest item to locate will be the correct motor. Other than that, I compiled a list of what parts you need for a full restoration. The parts, if bought from Olsen’s Toy Train Parts, adds up to $37.80. If bought from Brasseurs(Train Doctor), the price for all the parts would be $18.50.
> 
> If the intent is to repaint it, following a strip job, I can explain what I did, and used for a few of my restorations. Time will tell, and good luck with the bidding.
> 
> Just remember I’m a few keystrokes away, if there are questions. Also, there is the correct motor in a 1668E on eBay right now.


Yes I would be interested in that info. I do plan on repainting but I kinda like how those locos look in black. I'll let you know should I win. 




teledoc said:


> I sent you a PM about an available motor, if you win your bid. It is totally correct with 8 spoke wheels that has the peened side rod attached. I listed the item number so you can see for yourself. Good luck.


Yes Thanx. I found it & put it on my watch list.




Gerard said:


> I hope you get it balidas! I posted it here in hopes that a Torpedo fan would give it a good home.
> 
> As an alternative to buying a motor and parts, you could keep an eye out for an early 1688E with a broken shell and just swap all the parts over. I often see complete 1688Es sell really cheap, although the early ones with 8 spoke wheels can be harder to find, so teledoc's motor might be the way to go. It sounds like Brasseurs has some really good prices on the other stuff.


Yes me too! Again Thanx for the heads up. I'll keep you posted. :thumbsup:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, The Open Forward window version ONLY came in Gunmetal grey. If you are intent on Black, I would look for the next version that Lionel made, to replace the “open window” version. The second version had the windows filled in, (apparently due to breakage in the window area). That version came in BOTH colors, Black, or Gunmetal.

My thought process is to restore the open window version, to original color, and correct motor. Not to alter what would have been issued. Of course, it is your final decision!!


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Well once the original paint is gone, it's never going to be original anyway. If you painted it black now and wanted it to be grey later, you could simply repaint it again. Even aside from the writing on top (which might come off if you really wanted) the original paint on that shell is pretty far gone, so repainting is understandable and from a value standpoint probably wouldn't hurt, regardless of color.

Plus if it were painted black it might end up being the only black forward-cab-windows 1688E in existence, originality aside.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, I did a reassessment of parts that you would need, and if you do, in fact, win the bid for the body, you would only need $4.90 in parts, to make the loco complete. That is, if you opt to buy the motor that I pointed out. That motor includes the front & rear trucks, and the other running gear parts, so you would need a minimum of other parts, totaling $4.90.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Can you PM me the motor link, Jerry? (I'm not going to bid on the shell or motor ... Hoping Gerard scores the lot. Just curious.)

Thanks,

TJ


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Oh I won't be bidding on any of it myself. I'm hoping balidas gets it without much/any competition.

I'm holding out until I can snag a complete one with decent original paint, and for cheap of course because cheap is the only way I roll. Just a matter of time and patience.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I can’t in good conscience bid on this. I already own six bodies, with two of those are complete. The motor in another auction, is really tempting, as it would let me complete a third one. Apparently this thread has spurred a few individuals, into looking for some of the harder to find 1688 locos. I know I can find the needed motors, and parts in due time. I have other restoration project that I need to finish, (Postwar locos). We just have to see how the bidding goes......


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123233919200

This one has potential to be a motor/parts donor. Looks like a complete "Jr" motor with 8 spoke wheels there, but is untested so a bit of a gamble. it's been listed since July, so it might be worth contacting the seller to try to strike a better deal. Hope I'm not outing anybody's secret by posting it, but since it's such an old listing I thought it may have been overlooked.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Balidas, If you want to know how the restored paint job looks, take a look at the #1 post. When I bought it, about 1/3 of original paint was gone, with lots of chips. I decided to strip it, and that photo is the end result. I liked the finish of the paint I chose, as a pretty close match to original.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Gerard said:


> As an alternative to buying a motor and parts, you could keep an eye out for an early 1688E with a broken shell and just swap all the parts over. I often see complete 1688Es sell really cheap, although the early ones with 8 spoke wheels can be harder to find, so teledoc's motor might be the way to go. It sounds like Brasseurs has some really good prices on the other stuff.


Yes that's an option.



teledoc said:


> Balidas, The Open Forward window version ONLY came in Gunmetal grey. If you are intent on Black, I would look for the next version that Lionel made, to replace the “open window” version. The second version had the windows filled in, (apparently due to breakage in the window area). That version came in BOTH colors, Black, or Gunmetal.
> 
> My thought process is to restore the open window version, to original color, and correct motor. Not to alter what would have been issued. Of course, it is your final decision!!


Ok. I wasn't sure if that style came in black.




Gerard said:


> Well once the original paint is gone, it's never going to be original anyway. If you painted it black now and wanted it to be grey later, you could simply repaint it again. Even aside from the writing on top (which might come off if you really wanted) the original paint on that shell is pretty far gone, so repainting is understandable and from a value standpoint probably wouldn't hurt, regardless of color.
> 
> Plus if it were painted black it might end up being the only black forward-cab-windows 1688E in existence, originality aside.


We'll see what happens on that.



teledoc said:


> Balidas, I did a reassessment of parts that you would need, and if you do, in fact, win the bid for the body, you would only need $4.90 in parts, to make the loco complete. That is, if you opt to buy the motor that I pointed out. That motor includes the front & rear trucks, and the other running gear parts, so you would need a minimum of other parts, totaling $4.90.


Ok. I'll keep that in mind for the next few looooooooong days until the auction ends.  



teledoc said:


> Balidas, If you want to know how the restored paint job looks, take a look at the #1 post. When I bought it, about 1/3 of original paint was gone, with lots of chips. I decided to strip it, and that photo is the end result. I liked the finish of the paint I chose, as a pretty close match to original.


I did. That looks good. How did you strip the shell?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Paint stripping my way*

Balidas, This will probably sound strange, but the stripper I use, is Castrol Super Clean, (Purple 1 gal. Jug), bought at Walmart for cheapest price. I use a drywall/spackling trough, (plastic from Lowe’s/HD, or hardware). After removing the handrails, and other trim, that can be removed, I put it in the plastic trough, fill with Super Clean, and let it soak. I use an old toothbrush to get into all the crevices, and whisk the paint off. I have been able to strip the shell, in about an hour, and usually less than three hours of soaking. The Super Clean is not caustic, and I haven’t used gloves when I strip any bodies. It even works on Plastic with no ill effects.

When all the paint is removed, I do a quick rinse in the sink, dry with paper towels, and let to sit and finish air drying. When I am ready to paint, just before applying a primer coat, I wipe the whole body with 91% Isopropyl Alcohol (any drug store brand). Then I apply primer, and let dry for minimum 24 hours, before final coat. My choice of paint & primer are Krylon paints. Rustoleum gives me nothing but FITS, with lousy results. That is just my preference. For the Gunmetal finish, I used automotive DUPLICOLOR, from auto stores. The color is BGM344. The finish is what you see in the original post #1. When I am doing Black, I use Krylon Satin Black, but that is getting harder to find. Of course there are other choices of Black from semi-gloss/Satin/Flat. It depends on what finish you want. Again, this is the process I use with great results.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Teledoc, That's easy enough. I have everything except the super clean.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If memory serves me correctly I think in runs about $11 +/- The Super Clean can be used multiple times, before you have to dump it, which can be dumped down the sink/toilet...Just run it thru a strainer to take the paint remnants it of it, if you decide to re-use it again. I have stripped 5-6 shells with the initial batch, before I dumped it.

In the PM I just sent you, about removing the safety valves & sand dome, I usually don’t mess with the smokestack insert. They have replacements available, but are a bugger to take the old one out. It’s a matter of how much patience you have!!


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

That sounds a lot like Evapo Rust.

I wondered about the smoke stack if it was removable or not.

Reading your posts about the weakness of these shells, I often wondered if the insides could be coated with a covering of epoxy or something to add some strength to the shell.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

teledoc said:


> For the Gunmetal finish, I used automotive DUPLICOLOR, from auto stores. The color is BGM344. The finish is what you see in the original post #1.


I must say that one looks really nice. Did you not have any luck finding a Krylon that was as nice of a match to the gunmetal?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

No with the Krylon paint. I did some searching, and the Duplicolor looked the closest, to what I wanted as the end product. There may be other manufacturers that have a true Gunmetal paint, but I liked what I used. Everyone has their own preferences with paints, especially when it comes to “rattle can” paints. The options are rattle can, airbrush, and where to get a color match paint if using spray gun/airbrush. The quick way out was rattle can.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Can you PM me the motor link, Jerry? (I'm not going to bid on the shell or motor ... Hoping Gerard scores the lot. Just curious.)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> TJ


Dohh ... I meant Balidas, rather than Gerard. Reading/typing too fast. Sorry!

Doc -- PM me that motor link when you get a chance, please.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

balidas said:


> I wondered about the smoke stack if it was removable or not.


Yes, if you use a Dremel cutoff wheel to cut 4 notches in the UNDERSIDE of the smoke stack ring ( at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00 positions), you'll be able to flex the inner flange inward enough to remove the stack. Then, clean it up, and reinstall after painting ... bend the "four" flanges outward, and add a drop of super glue.

Worked OK for me, multiple times.

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

While at York this past weekend, I had my collection of Torpedoes photographed by Bruce Greenberg. During the 4 hours, we discussed various things, and came to a conclusion about how some of the molds were used, during the progressive production, from 1936-1941, in particular. One peculiar item was the Single Name Plate versions of the 1588, 1668, & 1688. The 1588 needed a hole for the wind up key, and that didn't require the indentation, where the normal Name Plate would go. I also stated in another post in this thread, about certain holes were done AFTER the body came out of the mold. These holes would be E unit slot, motor mounting holes, slots for Name Plates, Smokestack. 

I came to a conclusion that the outside mold was one part, and the underside was different mold part. The 1588 & 1688E Open forward window bodies shared the same underside mold. Both of these were the THIN CAST. The 1588 differs from the 1688E, where the Sand Dome and Safety valves, were all part of the 1588 outer mold. The 1688E & 1668E had nickel/chrome inserts, which required holes to be drilled into the body. The 1668E was the THICK CAST, which had an added firebox wall included, and no roof hatch. This appears to be a multi part mold, for the underside of the 1668E, but would have used the outer shell mold that was used on the 1937 & later version of the 1688E, (No Roof Hatch). The later versions, that had two name plates, were a different outer mold, that had the cutout for the second name plate. Here are photos, which were originally in Post #24, of this thread, which didn't explain the molding details.

The Lionel factory workers, most likely grabbed different pieces of the outer and inner molds, which gives rise to most of these body variations. The 1588 & 1688E from 1936 both had a roof hatch, whereas the later 1688's and 1668 locos had a smooth roof..

There are more observations with the multiple molds that created all the variations, which I will add to this thread. Hopefully I can explain in detail, so that it can be understood easily. More to come!!








1588 top, 1688E middle, 1668E bottom








1588 top, 1688E middle, 1668E bottom








1588 top, 1688E middle, 1668E bottom


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Jerry,

Good info above, as always!

I didn't know that the 1588 had the sand dome and safety valves cast into the shell! Thanks for that.

You talk about "outer mold" and "inner mold". I've worked with molds for many real-world boats, so I understand required draft angles and such for removal. With that, the outer mold of any of these 1588/1688/1668 loco shells would surely have been multi-part ... at least two or more likely three components that mated tightly together to create the outer loco shell female shape. But, two or three components needed to separate and allow part removal with proper draft angles.

Wouldn't you agree?

Have you ever discovered any published photos of old prewar cast-loco molds from the Lionel factory?

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

TJ, With regard to the molds, I totally agree, that they would have to be multiple pieces. When I mention “outer”, I am referring to the outside of the shell, and vice versa with the inner part being what you see from the bottom. When you look at some of the angles, and added “bosses”, it would definitely require multiple pieces for each mold. I would love to see what some of the actual molds looked like, but I doubt there is any source.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Interesting info about the molds. I never really thought about it before but it makes sense that various shells may have been cast with different combinations of molds on top and bottom.

Looks like balidas got outbid on the shell at the very end... hopefully it still gets a good restoration by the new owner.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nice 1588 loco/tender for sale on eBay now, but with steep $200 buy-it-now price ...


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That 1588 is way overpriced for just loco & tender. The whistle doesn’t work—Strike 1; If I’m not mistaken NO KEY—Strike 2. I had the opportunity to get loco, with working Whistle, original windup key; tender; 1673/1674/1675 streamline passenger cars, all for $150, at York Meet.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Gerard said:


> Looks like balidas got outbid on the shell at the very end... hopefully it still gets a good restoration by the new owner.


Ha! What makes you think I didn't snag that thing at the very last second!


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

balidas said:


> Ha! What makes you think I didn't snag that thing at the very last second!


I thought you were the initial bidder and the the winning bidder was different, but if you did snag it then good job and I look forward to seeing it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

balidas said:


> Ha! What makes you think I didn't snag that thing at the very last second!



Atta boy, Balidas. Enjoy!!!


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Got 5 minutes to check out the forum. Looking forward to more pics and discussing the torpedo loco's. Doc can't wait to see the new Greenberg's book.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Gerard said:


> I thought you were the initial bidder and the the winning bidder was different, but if you did snag it then good job and I look forward to seeing it.


I was the initial bidder then sat back to see what would happen. When I saw the 2nd bidder raise his initial bid twice I had an idea how much more I had to bid. My bid at the last 7 seconds was enough to trump a surprise 3rd bidder. 



tjcruiser said:


> Atta boy, Balidas. Enjoy!!!


I will Thanx!  I'll be posting pics when I get the shell.


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## LVR_Firebird (Oct 29, 2018)

Hi guys new guy here and stumbled across this awesome thread. 

Could you guys help me figure out what year my 1668 is? And if that tender is the one that belongs with this engine. I bought on eBay a few years ago and was trying to figure out what other cars would go in it as a set. Like freight cars or passenger cars. 

Thanks


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Firebird,

I think 1938/39 (earliest) through 1941, though Teledoc is the guru here. Looks to me like you have forward, horizontal motor mount screws. The telltale indicator, though, for your year will be the right side of the loco (not shown in your photo) ... likely with NO nameplate. Can you post a picture of the right side?

The fact that it's paired with a 2689TX tender leads me to think later in that time period (closer to 1941). The 2689T differed from the 1689T tender in that the 2000 series had box (rather than latch) couplers.

Your loco could have been mated with 1679, 1680, 1682 freight; or 1690 (two), 1691 passenger; or 1630 (two), 1631 passenger.

Let's see how Doc chimes in.

Cheers,

TJ


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## LVR_Firebird (Oct 29, 2018)

Thanks for the reply and hopefully Teledoc will chime in too 😄

Here are a few more pics


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Nice! the shell is intact. The wire showing must go to the front light. A lens and rear drawbar assembly and your're complete.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

And missing rear truck, too. The loco should be 2-6-2 wheel config.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

First let me note that I'm very far from an expert on these things, but if it has the 2689T Tender (with automatic box coupler), I think it would've originally been paired with a set of 2679, 2680, and 2682 freight cars, or a 2630+2631 passenger car set, which would have matching automatic box couplers. It's also possible that the tender wasn't originally paired with the locomotive, but regardless it's the correct style and the only difference would be the coupler.

The 1690/1691 passenger cars were very common with earlier 1688 and 1668 sets, but these were never made with box couplers (manual or automatic) and I don't think I've ever seen them in a set with a tender that had a box coupler, but I can't say for sure that Lionel never mixed things up with different coupler types in a factory set.






I spotted this video recently which happens to show a fantastic page from a 1941 catalog with two of the late-prewar-years factory 1668 sets. Note that all of the cars listed begin with a "1" which means they do not have automatic couplers, but in 1941 they were probably box couplers even if they weren't automatic. If the model starts with a "2" (like the 2689TX tender) it means that it has a box coupler with an electromagnetic uncoupling feature. Also note that there was, indeed, a factory set with a 1668 and the higher end 1630/1631 passenger cars, but it included just one 1630 instead of the usual two.

This all probably just makes things more confusing, but an important thing to note is that the older style latch couplers and newer style box couplers still connect together and work just fine.

A summary of cars to look for to go with a 1688 or 1668 set:

1679 (Baby Ruth box car, latch or manual box coupler)
1680 (Shell or Sunoco tank car, latch or manual box coupler)
1682 (caboose, latch or manual box coupler)

2679 (Baby Ruth box car, electromagnetic box coupler)
2680 (Shell or Sunoco tank car, electromagnetic box coupler)
2682 (caboose, electromagnetic box coupler)

1690 (red passenger car, latch coupler, two of these in a set)
1691 (red observation car, latch coupler, one of these in a set)

1630 (blue passenger car, latch coupler or manual box coupler, one or two per set)
1631 (blue observation car, latch coupler or manual box coupler, one per set)

2630 (blue passenger car, electromagnetic box coupler, one or two per set)
2631 (blue passenger car, electromagnetic box coupler, one per set)

And while I've never seen any evidence of a factory set with a 1668 and them, there's also the 2640/2641 passenger cars (blue or green with interior lighting) or 2642/2643 passenger cars (tuscan red with interior lighting) which would also go great with a 1668.

When it comes to O gauge trains, the 1688/1668 is a small locomotive, made closer to 1/64 proportions (typical S scale) rather than true 1/48 O scale. Because of that, most other models of Lionel prewar freight/passenger cars look slightly to significantly too large and out of scale when pulled by them. Nothing wrong with it, 1/64 scale on o gauge track actually has its own realm within the toy train world and the small Lionel Jr./O27 stuff can fit into that realm nicely.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gerard, great info. Refresh my memory: Does the X designation itself mean electromag coupler? The 2___ designation meaning box coupler, and the X designation meaning electromag version of that?

Is that correct?

Thanks,

TJ


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I remember reading that Lionel used the "X" to denote some sort of "special" nature of the product, possibly being sold separately from a set or something like that. I really don't know for sure.

The "2" is what signifies that it has an electromagnetic coupler. If a car has a box coupler without the electromagnetic feature, it just retains the same model number as the latch coupler version.

For example a 2679 Baby Ruth car will always have an electromagnetic box coupler, but a 1679 Baby Ruth car can either have a latch coupler or a non-electromagnetic box coupler depending on when it was made.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, the “Doctor” is in the House. To date your 1668, it is a 1939 issue. The 1937-38 issues were Gunmetal Grey, then changed to Black from 1939-1941. The body you have, is what I’ll refer to as a casting Error. You see two holes on the left side, that would have been used to mount the motor (version 3 Die Cast motor, from a 1688). The 1668 is a 2-6-2 motor, mounted through the top of the casting. Your body is just one of the many variations, of all the Torpedo bodies.

The tender is the wrong one, that would have been issued in a Set. It came in two catalogued Sets, and one “Uncatalogued-Sears Set, from 1941. The freight set would be, 1073E/W, with 1679 boxcar; 1680 tank car; & 1682 caboose. The tender should be the 1689T or 1689W, for both the freight & passenger sets. The passenger set consisted of two 1690 Pullmans and the 1691 Observation car. The two sets would have latch couplers, on all cars.

The Sears Set was issued in 1941, with the number R59/53, indicating it has remote control couplers, hence 2000 series. Looking at your loco, you need the rear truck assembly (part 1689E-24, $4.50 from Brasseurs- AKA The TrainDoctor, and the reartruck mounting screw, (part 1688E-36), $.60. Brasseurs is the cheapest for the front & rear trucks. Others charge avg. $6.00. You should also pick up the slide shoes that go into the collector plate. I’m pulling this off the top of my head, but I think the number is 1661-33..??

The “X”, typically denote a variation from the normal issues. The 2689TX, is most likely the journals used on the truck assemblies. The norm is nickel journals on the 1600 series freight & passenger, and some came with Black journals. The “X” usually only shows up on boxes only, but in your case it is stamped on the bottom of the tender. Any other questions, fire away.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gerard, Jerry -- excellent info above! Thanks for sharing such detail!

TJ


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## LVR_Firebird (Oct 29, 2018)

Thanks TJCruiser, T-man, Gerard and Teledoc!

Great info, I am amazed how much reading about this train is making me want to get it running!!

Thanks again, and looking forward to reading and learning some more!


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## LVR_Firebird (Oct 29, 2018)

teledoc said:


> Okay, the “Doctor” is in the House. To date your 1668, it is a 1939 issue. The 1937-38 issues were Gunmetal Grey, then changed to Black from 1939-1941. The body you have, is what I’ll refer to as a casting Error. You see two holes on the left side, that would have been used to mount the motor (version 3 Die Cast motor, from a 1688). The 1668 is a 2-6-2 motor, mounted through the top of the casting. Your body is just one of the many variations, of all the Torpedo bodies.
> 
> The tender is the wrong one, that would have been issued in a Set. It came in two catalogued Sets, and one “Uncatalogued-Sears Set, from 1941. The freight set would be, 1073E/W, with 1679 boxcar; 1680 tank car; & 1682 caboose. The tender should be the 1689T or 1689W, for both the freight & passenger sets. The passenger set consisted of two 1690 Pullmans and the 1691 Observation car. The two sets would have latch couplers, on all cars.
> 
> ...



Ok, so my 1668 Engine is from 1939 Cool! And now I have the part#s and where to get them  Could I get the Lens for the light at this place too? Brasseurs? And I did purchase some shoes when I bought the engine on ebay so I should be good for them.

So if I were to put a set together then I would need to get a 1689T or 1689W, what do the T and W stand for?

And for passenger cars I should look for 1690 Pullmans and 1691 Observation (was there specific colors for 1939?)

And for Freight cars what nubmers should I be looking for?

Thanks again for all the help!!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

'Bird -- On the tenders, T is for a regular (non-whistle) version, and W is for a version with a functional whistle.

Jerry -- In regards to Firebird's 1668 loco and tender ... I'm confused about what you said above. You date the loco to 1939 (OK, I agree), but couldn't this same loco type been have been included in a 1941 set? You say that 'Bird has the wrong tender, but if the loco came from the 1941 Sears set with the 2000-series remote control BOX couplers, why are you ruling out that this 2689TX tender could not be part of this Sears set, and mated originally to the loco? Set us straight. It seems to me the Sears set is still a candidate???

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

‘Bird, The lens is part 752-15, available from all dealers. The question of the passenger cars, they would be the Red 1690 (2 of them), and Red 1691 Observation car. The freight cars are 1679 “Baby Ruth boxcar”, 1680 Sunoco tank car, and the 1682 Red caboose. The T & W was explained by TJ. 

TJ, The body of ‘Bird’s *1668 (typo fixed)* is absolutely 1939 issue. The casting is from the 1939 time frame, because of the two holes on left side, for a motor mount. That motor mounting is from the last version of motor, (Die Cast with the Bakelite collector plate of a 1688). This is one of those molding errors, to produce that body, as a 1668. The E unit slot is forward, which is 100% 1668. I wouldn’t totally discount his combo as part of a Sears Set, but highly unlikely, in my opinion. A lot of sellers will add a tender, even if it is the wrong one, to increase the saleability of the loco. The listed tenders on all Sets was either a 1689T (non whistle), or the 1689W (whistle), with no difference in value. The two catalogued Sets were 1073E, (no whistle), or 1073W (whistle), and the 1074E/W. Sets listed with “E” didnot come with a whistle tender, but the “W” had a whistle tender.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

My first 1688 (black #16) came with a 2689T tender, but the set is a repaint and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the tender didn't originally come with the locomotive.

I was wondering the same thing as TJ though. The variations documents only lists variations up to 1939, even though they were produced through 1941, so it's unclear to me which variations were still in production in 1940 and 1941. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if as the war approached some sets were made with mismatched parts and couplers and such just to make complete sets with whatever was on hand. Wasn't there a whole thing with Madison Hardware doing that kind of stuff?

I recently saw a "2679" Baby Ruth that had manual box couplers instead of automatic. I highly doubt the trucks were replaced considering it was in really good shape overall, so it seems more likely a factory error or simply using up parts available at the end of production.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

teledoc said:


> ‘Bird, The lens is part 752-15, available from all dealers. The question of the passenger cars, they would be the Red 1690 (2 of them), and Red 1691 Observation car. The freight cars are 1679 “Baby Ruth boxcar”, 1680 Sunoco tank car, and the 1682 Red caboose. The T & W was explained by TJ.
> 
> TJ, The body of ‘Bird’s 1688 is absolutely 1939 issue. The casting is from the 1939 time frame, because of the two holes on left side, for a motor mount. That motor mounting is from the last version of motor, (Die Cast with the Bakelite collector plate of a 1688). This is one of those molding errors, to produce that body, as a 1668. The E unit slot is forward, which is 100% 1668. I wouldn’t totally discount his combo as part of a Sears Set, but highly unlikely, in my opinion. A lot of sellers will add a tender, even if it is the wrong one, to increase the saleability of the loco. The listed tenders on all Sets was either a 1689T (non whistle), or the 1689W (whistle), with no difference in value. He two catalogued Sets were 1073E, (no whistle), or 1073W (whistle), and the 1074E/W. Sets listed with “E” didnot come with a whistle tender, but the “W” had a whistle tender.


Hi Jerry, etc.

(I fixed a typo in your comment ... changed "Bird's 1688" to "Bird's 1668")

I don't know, Doc ... I'm thinking that with the 2689TX tender, there's no reason to discount the 1941 special Sears set. Yes, the loco is circa 1939 (AND BEYOND THRU 1941), so what's not to say the tender at hand was originally mated to the loco, as part of the special Sears set (2000 series electric box couplers).

No proof on my end, of course. But, if it was time to lay my money down, that's where I'm placing my bet!!!   

Fun detective stuff, for sure. Thanks to all here for the interesting dialog and hypotheses!

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gerard said:


> Also, it wouldn't surprise me if as the war approached some sets were made with mismatched parts and couplers and such just to make complete sets with whatever was on hand. Wasn't there a whole thing with Madison Hardware doing that kind of stuff?


Bingo.

I'm putting a few extra betting chits on your call, too, Gerard!



TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay guys, I will concede to it possibly being the Sears Set, BUT the listing from the Lionel Prewar Sets, Vol. IV, by Dave McEntarfer, list the following components. Sears Set #5953/Lionel Set 1073 As follows:
1668/1689T loco & tender
1679 Box car
1680 Tanker
1682 Caboose
The box would show Sears # R53/59, with the “R” denoting that it was a remote control Set. In No way does it mention a 2689TX. The 1679; 1680; & 1682 had Box Couplers, starting in 1939. Latch couplers from 1936-1938. The Box couplers were first introduced in 1936, as an improvement over the earlier Latch couplers, and could be operated “remotely”

The 2689TX tender was only issued with ONE loco, the 224E, in 1938, and NO other locos......So, I’m all into the “Pot”, with 1939-1941 issue, (as it is the last issue, so ‘39-‘41, inclusive, with the wrong tender). If it was a possibility of something sold by Madison Hardware, they were the biggest retail customer, of Lionel, and took many Liberties when creating Sets for customers. Many of which, can’t be documented.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

OK, Jerry ... you paint a pretty convincing argument. That said, "A Collector's Guide and History to Lionel Trains, Vol. 1 Prewar O Gauge" by McComas and Tuohy lists (on the last page) that the 2689 tender (T or W) was mated to the following locos:

204, 224E, 229, 259E, 1666, 1666E, 1684.

There's no mention of a 2689TX in that table. (Though clearly it exists, as exemplified by your comment and 'Bird's tender/photo.)

While I'm looking at that, it's a great table/list in that cited reference. A detailed list of locos, color, year, tenders, comments. I'll scan it it later, and post it.

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

There will always be conflicts, between authors, when info is put to print. The listing showing the 2689TX, mated to the 224E, came from the Greenberg Vol. II book, but when looking at the McEntarfer Vol. IV, Sets (also a Greenberg book), there is NO 2689TX listed, and only 2689T or 2689W. Also with those two tenders, it was never used with a 1668. Although the McEntarfer book shows 2689T, 2689X, and 2689W, & 2689WX, with the TX missing in his list. I only have one Touhy & McComas book, and have found a multitude of mistakes with certain loco combinations.
I am finding mistakes, or omissions in the Set Book, when I cross reference certain items; such as a specific tender, used with a specific loco, or certain rolling stock used with a certain loco.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Got my shell in yesterday. Looks pretty good. I'll post some pix in a day or 2 when I have a little time.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Great that you got your 1688E, and now it is decision time. Do I strip it, and repaint it, and if so, do I keep with the standard Gunmetal, or do I go a different direction, and paint it Black.......What about the motor??? Keep us posted.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Definitely strip it. And I've decided to stick with grey. Except for 1 or 2, all my other steamers are black. I see what you mean about using the Dremel. I will do that. Can you pop out the head lens without busting it?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The headlight lens is celluloid, and may or may not be brittle. Try something close to the size of the hole, and push from the inside of the body. Worst case is it breaks, but the part is 752-15, available from just about any dealer. The price at Toy Train Tender (Jeff Kane) is $.75 each, the others are $1.00 each, so you chose where to buy any lenses, if you need them.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok I couldn't resist or wait & I stripped everything that could be removed. You are right about the thin casting. Not something you want flying off the track onto the concrete floor. That headlight lens popped out no problem. It looks like an eye contact.

I might like to highlight some of the loco's body lines. 

I also wonder if there are red leds small enough I could drill out the red lanterns & slide one in each.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

The lanterns glow pretty nicely from the light of the headlight bulb.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

With a 1.5mm or maybe a 3 you could drill into the back and feed it from the inside.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

teledoc said:


> For the Gunmetal finish, I used automotive DUPLICOLOR, from auto stores. The color is BGM344.


Hi Jerry,

Can you refresh my memory: What specific auto parts store carries the Duplicolor paint on your end? NAPA, AutoZone, Advance, etc.? Approx price per rattle-can bottle?

I have a 238 repaint in the queue at some point, but want to first try "your" gunmetal on a 1668 redo that I have.

Thanks!

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I used Autozone, the color code is BGM0344, @ $9.49 per can, but I get multiple usage, from a single can. The primer I used was Krylon Ultramaxx grey primer. Haven’t had any problems with either primer or paint. Have fun!!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*PDF File revision/correction*

I have replaced the original PDF files listed in Post #’s 1 & 40, to correct my dyslexia with the number tags on the 1668 (I inadvertently posted 1688). :dunno:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Jerry! Both for the typo fixes to the pdf file, and for the info on the paint. There's and AutoZone near me, so I'm going to give them a shot for the paint.

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Edited PDF file, with corrections*

*For those of you that have followed this thread from the beginning, the PDF file, had a few errors, with numbers. The section for the 1668/1668E, had the nameplate number listed as 1688. TJcruiser brought it to my attention, and the Corrected PDF, is located in both Post #1, and Post #40. So, if you downloaded the first PDF, I would suggest you replace it with the updated one.*


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Grabbed the updated one for my "Train Stuff" folder, thanks.

Running my 1936 1688E right now and pushed it a little too fast. Saw the light go out for a second as it lifted up enough around the turn to lose contact with the center rail, but it settled back down as it came to the straight section. Maybe that's not too fast, but just the perfect amount of speed. I imagine a good percentage of these left the rails at least once when their original owners were testing just how fast they could go around the O27 curves before lifting off. All in good fun when it's a floor layout at least.

This made me think of one small thing: my newer 1688s both have a flat piece of springy metal under the leading wheels to keep them pushed down on the tracks, but my 1936 1688E lacks that extra little feature. I'm guessing that's just something that was added after 1936 sometime, but it's possible it could just be missing from my 1936 example. Either way, I have yet to have the lead wheels jump off the track, so it doesn't seem too critical.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Throttle-back there, Flash ... throttle back!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gerard, Glad you got the updated file. The copper spring on the front truck, was a hit or miss thing, thru production. I have found it on a few, but as you mentioned, they were later issues, after 1936. All of the Torpedoes, 1668 & 1688, were bought on eBay, and the majority were missing both sets of trucks. The Olsen Library is down right now, but there is no spring in the photos, or parts list. I would love to have an Original Prewar Dealer Manual, with instructions and parts.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I checked the 1688 diagram I have saved and the spring actually is shown on there, listed as "259E-60 truck spring". I wish I had archived more from Olsen because it may be down and out for good (just going by something I read on another forum involving communications with the owner).


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

teledoc said:


> *For those of you that have followed this thread from the beginning, the PDF file, had a few errors, with numbers. The section for the 1668/1668E, had the nameplate number listed as 1688. TJcruiser brought it to my attention, and the Corrected PDF, is located in both Post #1, and Post #40. So, if you downloaded the first PDF, I would suggest you replace it with the updated one.*



Got it Thanx!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gerard, I went into my photos, and the spring is listed, as you said. My biggest problem was missing Pilots or trailing truck, on the bulk of all the Torpedoes I bought. The ones that had pilots trucks, did include the spring. Just hope the Olsen site comes back up.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

Doc, am also hoping Olsen's site comes back up. As popular as the "Library" is and as often as the Olsen site is down, I wonder if it is practical for another entity to establish a second library site. MTF Forum, perhaps?

swede


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

There was another website called prewarlionel.com but that site has had issues staying in operation too. Many people have offered to help the owner out but not sure if he is receptive to the offer though. Shame it had real potential.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Swede, I’m hoping it does come back on-line, For the benefit of most of us, especially in the Prewar side. I personally have both the K-line & Greenberg Postwar manuals. What I lack is the Prewar parts, and instructions. Just this morning, I placed an order for Olsen’s “Prewar CD”, so I will have the access to the Prewar info. I don’t see how that Library, could be incorporated into this forum.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Prewarlionel.com*

Chief, The website domain name is still in use, BUT the website is completely Dead in the water. Tom Bennett, was the person who started the site, and initially things were going great. He let things sit idle, for close to a year, with no activity on his part. A few of us sent info, with photos, to add to his library. What was sent to him, never made it onto the site. I myself, contacted him via email, not thru the website, to offer to help, with adding new entries, and also tried to get some personal info, about himself. He basically never responded to the many emails I sent, and has totally ignored the website. It is no longer accessible, and we don’t know what his personal issues were. The idea was fantastic, and well received by those who knew about it. A great website lost forever!!!!!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Gunmetal spray paint*

Here's the Gunmetal rattle-can spray paint that Teledoc Jerry has used with good success on 1668 / 1688 loco restorations. I picked up a can today from AutoZone ... $9.49. The lid color looks very close to my all-original 1668, and I'm going to repaint another 1668 restoration project in the next few days (weather permitting). We'll see how it goes, and how the color turns out, but I think Teledoc has found a good, affordable match for us.

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That’s the right one, and you let me know what you think of the color. The 1668 & 1688’s were produced from 1936-1941, and comparing original paint, the shade differences show up. I think I have at least 22 Gunmetal Torpedoes, to look at side by side. No two are exact matches.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

Doc, you indicated you had placed an order with Olsen's for the CD the other day. Did you place it by phone? I ask because I have called numerous times over the last week and the phone just rings. 

swede


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Swede, No I did it online thru eBay, and I want to see what happens. It makes you wonder if something has happened to Sharon, who is keeping things going for her father. Right now, it’s a wait & see. I can see the status of the transaction, thru eBay, as to paid/shipped, etc.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I painted my (second) 1668 this morning, after a full strip/prime. (I did a 1689T tender, too.)

Here's a comparison of the Duplicolor Gunmetal shell in the foreground, to a very-nice-quality, all-original 1668 in the background. The color is reasonably close, though if I had to nitpick, I'd say that the Duplicolor Gunmetal has more "metallic sparkle" than Lionel's original gunmetal, and perhaps a tiny bit more silver sheen to the Duplicolor. The Lionel original is quite shiny, but doesn't have that dusty sparkle that I got with the Duplicolor.

All in all, not bad, though. If they weren't side by side, we'd never notice a difference.

*Update -- I should note that one 8-ounce can of the DupliColor Gunmetal spray paint was just enough to provide nice-coat coverage on the inside and outside shell components of one 1668 shell and one 1689T tender (frame and shell). It got the job done, but not much left over in the can. You might want to have a spare can on hand.*

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

teledoc said:


> The 1668 & 1688’s were produced from 1936-1941, and comparing original paint, the shade differences show up. I think I have at least 22 Gunmetal Torpedoes, to look at side by side. No two are exact matches.


Very interesting!


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

I agree with Doc re "No two are exact matches", but also agree with you, TJ. The Duplicolor does not provide the "sheen" that the original Lionel had. Not even with an overspray of clear gloss.

swede


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## [email protected] (Dec 25, 2018)

*Yet another variant of the 1688E*

Jerry and all,

I think I have yet another variant to the 1936 Lionel 1688E, 2-4-2, locomotive.

Raised roof hatch, open firebox wall, open forward facing cab windows, NO WINGED KEYSTONE above headlight, E unit slot between sand dome and safety valves, screw holes in running board for motor mount, 1688E number plates (both sides), does NOT have Lionel Jr. motor - instead LIONEL 027 motor (w/plate), eight spoke wheels, side rode attached by peening, Gun Metal Gray, thin casting (? weighs about one pound).

What confuses me is the lack of a Keystone and LIONEL 027 motor.

Chris Watson


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Well that would confuse me too!!!! The Lionel 027 nameplate on the motor puts it into 1937 issue. That was the year that the motor tags were changed from Lionel Jr.. The open window was the first issue, BUT you say there is no keystone?? You have got to post photos, especially the nose of the loco. If what you have posted, then I would say you have a one of a kind, because of the lack of keystone. The motor sounds like it could have been a late 1936 issue with leftover 8 spoke wheels, peened rods, but a Lionel 027 motor tag attached. The other option being an original Jr. motor, where the previous owner having replaced the collector plate, with the 027 tags.

Post photos when you can.


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## [email protected] (Dec 25, 2018)

All,
Pictures of my 1688E to follow. Please note a couple of things that show:
Copper/brass spring on front pilot wheel unit.
Very crude metal work on flat top at front.
Wear marks on pickups on Lionel 027 motor - apparently run a lot
Has hatch
Does not have Keystone on front


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## [email protected] (Dec 25, 2018)

Pictures of 1688E


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## [email protected] (Dec 25, 2018)

*More pictures*

Here are more pictures.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Pictures of 1688E
> 
> View attachment 477878


In this pic it looks like the winged keystone is there. On mine the keystone is there but it is very slight. Easy to miss if you're not looking for it.


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## [email protected] (Dec 25, 2018)

*If that's a "winged Keystone" ...*

Ok, I admit I'm new to all this. But given the detail visible in other aspects of the body casting, then at best it's a one winged something, but even under a 10X jewelers loop there is not keystone.

Perhaps it's a function of the imperfect finish - striations - on the entire roof, especially the long flat part beginning at the front and going about 1/3 of the way to the "sand dome."

I frankly was expecting something a little more visible like the front I saw on another non-1688E locomotive (see attached picture).


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Genealogist, Balidas has it correct, that your 1688E DOES HAVE the Keystone. Your comparison loco was the 0 gauge 238, which used an attached plate Keystone. The 1588 windup and 1688E locos from 1936, had the keystone on the earlier issues of that year. By the end of the year, the keystone wasn’t present. Over the course of the years of production, there were many mold changes, creating all the various castings, from 1936-1941. The Torpedo locos were sold by the thousands, during that time span.
The keystone is an indentation in the casting, which can appear subtle to very pronounced. I suspect the collector pickup plate was replaced with a later issue “Lionel 027“. The flat copper spring under the front pilot truck is correct, but on most being sold today, it is missing. There is no ill effect if it is missing.

I went back and looked at your attached photos and noticed you DO NOT have the “Open Fwd Window” version. You have the second issue, that had the windows filled in. Go to the #1 post of this thread, and that attached photo is the very first issue, with the open windows.


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## LVR_Firebird (Oct 29, 2018)

teledoc said:


> ‘Bird, The lens is part 752-15, available from all dealers. The question of the passenger cars, they would be the Red 1690 (2 of them), and Red 1691 Observation car. The freight cars are 1679 “Baby Ruth boxcar”, 1680 Sunoco tank car, and the 1682 Red caboose. The T & W was explained by TJ.


For the 1679 Baby Ruth Boxcar would that be the Green or Red root for this year?

I picked up eBay a sweet, I mean SWEET 1680 and 1682 for $12 shipped (with $5 eBay coupon) I was so happy to snag them. 

I’m hoping they are the correct for my year 1939 1668


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Firebird, The caboose is correct colors,but if we establish the Set as #1073W, the Tank car should be Yellow with “Shell” logo. The cars of Set 1073W are 1668 Black loco with 1668 plates ( no “E” ), the 1689T/or 1689W, 1679 Yellow Boxcar, Green or Blue Roof, 1680 Orange with “Shell” logo, 1682 Red with yellow trim. That is the correct lineup for that Set. Me personally, I think the aluminum Sunoco tank car is perfectly fine. The change of the tank car started in 1939, which switched to the Orange “Shell” colors, then in 1941 went back to Aluminum with S.U.N.X. logo. The last Tanker in 1942 was Gray w/ S.U.N.X. logo. The Tank cars went through many changes during their production, from 1933 to 1942. 
It comes down to assembling the correct cars that were issued in Set 1073W, or just getting the Set with the other the cars you have, and just adding the missing Boxcar, to have a freight set. The other Sets for the 1668 were passenger sets, with different combinations of cars used, depending on the year.


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## LVR_Firebird (Oct 29, 2018)

Thanks Teledoc!

Yeah I think I’m looking for a Baby Ruth Boxcar next. 

I have been looking for a passenger set as well. 

Now I have the Tinplate bug, I’m keep my eye on for a 1689e so I can use the same cars as my 1688. 


Thanks so much for all the great info!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you are thinking of passenger cars for the 1668, they would be two 1690’s,& one 1691. They are Red with yellow trim. You will see quite a few of the cars on eBay.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

Any of you guys snag this one? I was watching it but it went a bit too high for me. Seller didn't appear to know about the rare windows, but it seems likely that at least a couple bidders did.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pr.../312434250260?nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

No have been under the weather for a bit and not online .


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gerard, thanks for the link. Interesting to see the $72 sale price. Steep for me, too, but not too bad, given the rarity of the cab-window version.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Gerard, thanks for the link. Interesting to see the $72 sale price. Steep for me, too, but not too bad, given the rarity of the cab-window version.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ


Also came with a whistle tender which is worth a decent amount on its own.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Lionel 1689E variation*

Although this isn't considered in the "Torpedo" class, the 1689E was issued in two years only, 1936 & 1937. They differ from each other, with the 1936 version was only in Black. The 1937 version came in both Black and Gunmetal Gray. One unique feature of the early produced 1689E, was the lack of any running lights, or the holes to attach the same. The motors used were the Lionel Jr. variety with 8 spoke drivers, and the bottom plate was "Lionel Jr.". The later version, toward the end of 1936, into 1937, the running lights were now added, and the motor was replace with the "Lionel 027" tags on the motors, with 12 spoke drivers. These two variations are easily overlooked, but having owned both versions, I found it interesting to add to some of the variations that can be found while searching certain items. Below are some photos to show the comparison of the two variations.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> Chief, The website domain name is still in use, BUT the website is completely Dead in the water. Tom Bennett, was the person who started the site, and initially things were going great. He let things sit idle, for close to a year, with no activity on his part. A few of us sent info, with photos, to add to his library. What was sent to him, never made it onto the site. I myself, contacted him via email, not thru the website, to offer to help, with adding new entries, and also tried to get some personal info, about himself. He basically never responded to the many emails I sent, and has totally ignored the website. It is no longer accessible, and we don’t know what his personal issues were. The idea was fantastic, and well received by those who knew about it. A great website lost forever!!!!!




You notice that the site is completely gone now?


404
Error - Page Not Found

Please check the URL.

Otherwise, click here to be redirected to the homepage.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Big Ed, It would have been a welcome website, for many people interested in Prewar Lionel, to be able to research all different aspects of Prewar. We thought it was going to last, and agreed to help build it up, to compliment the Postwar Library that has been around for quite a while. We will never know why it faded away, into oblivion.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks for the 1689 comparison info, Doc.

Just a quick note for general reference ...

The 1688, 1668, and 1689 locos all share the same red marker lights.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

For anyone interested in Lionel prewar Torpedo locos (1588, 1688, 1689, etc.), this thread from Teledoc Jerry is PACKED with invaluable historic identification information, the bulk of which was compiled by meticulous research from Doc himself.

Sadly, Jerry passed away in December. (RIP thread in Union Station.)

Though the news brings a tear to my eye, I am happy that his research and love of prewar Lionel tinplate lives on here, for the benefit of countless modelers going forward.

RIP, Jerry ... you will be remembered and missed.

TJ


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Man! Just hearing about this. I am so sorry for his passing. It was Jerry who started me on my search for an open window torpedo loco. When after several years of finally getting one, it was Jerry who gave me so much info on what motor with what spoked wheels etc. On top of all that, he sent me the correct tender for this loco. I have yet to do the restore having so much else going on.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

balidas said:


> Man! Just hearing about this. I am so sorry for his passing. It was Jerry who started me on my search for an open window torpedo loco. When after several years of finally getting one, it was Jerry who gave me so much info on what motor with what spoked wheels etc. On top of all that, he sent me the correct tender for this loco. I have yet to do the restore having so much else going on.


If you would like to, you can add something over here,
https://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=189490


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Yea I just did. Thanx.


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