# Lionel Post War Smoke Unit Element



## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I have a Lionel Post War #2056 Steamer from 1952. I serviced the smoke unit yesterday and put in some new wick. On the heating element is what appears to be a "sock" over it. Is this normal for these old puffer smoke units? Can it be removed so the resistor is directly against the wick as with the newer smoke units from Lionel and MTH?

Thank you!

Todd


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

Sounds like it's been upgraded. My old 1952 726 had this type of element originally.









Once upgraded to liquid it was just a resistor with a sock on it. I cut off the sock on mine. More trouble than they are worth in my opinion

Here's my unit before and during the upgrade


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thank you. Yes, it was converted from the tablet to a liquid unit sometime ago.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I always take the sock off, so I know it can work that way.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks John. The sock gave new meaning to words "baked on", so it's time for a new resistor.

Any suggestion for a replacement heating element for this post war Lionel? And where would I find that? I have no idea on this one as I know there are different types.

Thanks!

Todd


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I'd think this one would be a good choice

691RS18OHM	SMOKE ELEMENT / 18 OHM 3W WIREWOUND

Lionel uses these in their reproduction postwar engines

https://www.lionelsupport.com/Repla...c3b-4508-be79-b61033ec9089&resultsPerPage=150

You can find some of alternative ones on digikey for pennies but you might have to ground out the insulation

http://www.digikey.com/product-sear...t=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

lionel uses a 691RES3W22	SMK RES 22 OHM 3W 5% resistor in their recreation of that engine. I guess it depends on the size of the smoke unit you have

https://www.lionelsupport.com/Repla...roductID=0364f713-88cf-4eae-8983-47301f0007ab


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Lostsoul. It's the original smoke unit that came with it, but was converted in the 1970s to liquid. Pellets were a rare commodity in those days. I could never find them.

I just want to ensure I get the right heating element.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I'd think anything from 18-25 ohms would work. The lower the ohm level the more smoke produced. I have a 22 ohm in my 726 from 1952 right now and the smoke is pretty anemic. I've been thinking of moving to the 18 wire wound that I linked above. These older units were built like tanks that's for sure and the resistor value is something you can tweak some to your smoke level liking. I'd probably get a number of options from digikey in various ohm levels and find your own perfect value


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Is there a trick for grinding off the insulation without damaging the heating elements?


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

very light touch with a wire wheel on a dremel  The resistors are pretty cheap so expect you'll bust one on your first try and get a few. It doesn't need to be completely clean. You just want the wires showing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Make sure you are running the wire wheel parallel to the windings, don't go across them as that will take them right off. I lose about 1 in 20 due to wire damage, but I'm usually in somewhat of a hurry to get them stripped.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Todd Lopes said:


> Thanks Lostsoul. It's the original smoke unit that came with it, but was converted in the 1970s to liquid. Pellets were a rare commodity in those days. I could never find them.
> 
> I just want to ensure I get the right heating element.


Is the top of your smoke unit metal or plastic? The original smoke units were all metal and used the flat heating element Lost posted in the second post. That element works equally well with both pellets and liquid. I suspect Lionel started using cylindrical resistors is because they are commercially available while the flat ones were custom wound. They both use nichrome wire of similar gauge so should work about the same.

Pete


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

The top of the unit is plastic.

Another question: On these resistors, does it matter which side goes to the positive and negative? And how do you tell especially from the ones from Lionel as there are no bands.

Thanks!


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

The liquid upgrade to my 726 was a plastic top as well. 

The resistors don't have polarity.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks LostSoul, Norton and Gunrunner. I will let you know how the project proceeds.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Lionel is having a 50% off sale on their parts through the weekend. If you need any Lionel parts, now is a good time to buy them. 
I just ordered a bunch of stuff including a few of the resistors for this project.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I just placed an $800 order, nice to see the hefty 50% discount applied, let's hope all the parts are in stock.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Just wanted to report back that the 18ohm resistor from Lionel works great, too great. After about 10 minutes of running, I saw a bright orange glow coming from the stack. Killed the power. 

18ohm is too much for this engine. I'm going to try out some other resistor. 

It obviously needs a weaker element.

I'll report back once I get some others ordered.

Thanks.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I believe a 20 or 22 might be enough? Comments or Suggestions before I order more?


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I have that same 18 ohm element in my j class that I upgraded to fan smoke. Mine glows as well. I can't say if that is normal or not but I've been running mine for quite some time without issue. It has to get hot for smoke to form.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I just use the kit from Jeff, the Train Tender.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you see the element glowing visibly, it's way too hot.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Well, the kit that Jeff sales is 27ohm. (Lionel Part #600-8141-055) 

I'll give that a whirl.

Thanks Gents for the help.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I'm happy to report the kit from Jeff at the Train Tender worked perfectly. The 27ohm resistor works great. It puts out plenty of smoke using the Mega Steam brand.

Thanks for all of your help.

Todd


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Good Deal!:appl:For the occasional smoke repair I go with Jeff.:thumbsup:


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Happy Holidays guys. Thought I'd report in on this project. A few nights ago while running this engine at about 14V with a MTH Z1000 transformer, I smelled burnt plastic.

Obviously, I shut it down immediately and let it cool. The plastic cap on top of the smoke unit had melted. I emailed with Jeff at the Train Tender and he indicated it should not melt that cap until 20V. It melted at 14V. I confirmed that what I purchased was a 28ohm resistor. Jeff indicated I should perhaps use the pellet heater kit instead.

And it does glow orange at 14V. 

I like a lot of smoke, but rather err on the side of safety here. What is the next step up in an OHM resistor that I could try out?

Thanks!


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

That is really odd. Maybe something wrong with that resistor? Did you verify it is 28 ohms? On my upgraded 726 with the 28 ohm it barely smokes and the element is not even close to glowing @ 14-16v


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Jeff at the Train Tender said it was 28 ohm. I did not check it myself, but will.

I bought two of these kits from him and just for testing, I installed the other one and it glows too at 14V. I will also note that when it melted the cap, the engine was on the F/R lockout setting and was in forward motion only. Not sure if that would have any cause, but worth to mention.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're running truly 14 volts on a 28 ohm resistor, that's dissipating 7 watts.  The resistors are rated at 3 watts, so they will get pretty toasty at that temperature. 

Locking the locomotive into a direction has no effect, the real difference would be if it was moving or stopped. No airflow will hasten the demise of the resistor and plastic parts.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Gunrunner-and I did notice that prior to smelling the plastic burning, the engine did slow down a bit and it eventually stalled on the track. It was stalled perhaps a minute before I realized it had stopped. Without the airflow, that is what really made it burn.

I should have said the engine was running at no more than 14V, it could have been less. I don't a meter installed on the Z1000.

I'd rather have less smoke and more concerned for safety of the engine. I normally use the Lionel 1033 with this engine it is only rated at max 16V.

Any suggestions at this point?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't do much with the puffers, I'm more tuned into the fan driven units. With no airflow, things will pretty quickly get out of hand in that small space.

For a safer non-melting option, I'd look for the metal top for the smoke unit.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks John. Great advice, as usual. I'll start the search for one of those metal tops.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

I've never had any luck with the plastic tops that come in those kits. They either don't fit well or as you just found, melt.

I just reuse the old metal top that originally came with the unit. Just make sure you insulate the non grounded lead where it comes through the top. A little piece of heat shrink will work or the spaghetti common on resistors in old transistor radios and such.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Bob. I wish I still had that metal cap. The engine was converted to liquid sometime in the 1970s. I'm on the hunt. Any leads to find one would be appreciated.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Todd Lopes said:


> Thanks Bob. I wish I still had that metal cap. The engine was converted to liquid sometime in the 1970s. I'm on the hunt. Any leads to find one would be appreciated.


Evilbay: Metal smoke cover!

Buy it Now - 5.95 :SELLIT:


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks a million Bob. Just ordered one.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thought I'd circle back with a final report. 

The Train Tender smoke unit kit I received included a resistor that was not 27ohm. It was around 22ohm which caused the plastic cap in the kit to melt. I ordered a few 27 ohm resistors directly from Lionel and a metal smoke unit cap. Jeff from the Train Tender was very helpful in troubleshooting the issue.

After insulating both resistors leads twice with shrink tubing, everything in the smoke unit now appears to be back to normal operation. The 27 ohm resistor does not glow orange but is clearly heating up the batting putting out some nice puffs of smoke.

One thing I noticed after reassembling the engine, the lock out switch on the top is no longer locking the engine in one direction. If the switch is moved, the engine doesn't move, but it is clearly on.

Any ideas ?

Thanks.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

All the 'lock out switch does is ground or open the E-unit. Obviously when it is grounded the E-unit will cycle to one of four positions - forward - off - reverse - off. 

Notice off occurs twice, when you unground or open the E-unit it will remain in the last position it was in.

If it was forward it will always run forward, if reverse always reverse. If the last position was OFF, it will always be off but the headlight will come on and the smoke element will heat up, the engine just won't move.

That sound like you?


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Bob for the clarification. I should have known that.

I guess my only other concern about this project is the hot lead from the resistor that I protected with heat shrink tubing. I'm sure the metal cap will get hot and perhaps will melt that heat shrink tubing at some point. I noticed in John's picture above there appears to be some sort of mesh material that covers that hot lead.

Does anyone know what that is or could recommend a better way to insulate that hot lead from the metal cap?

Thanks.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

You needn't worry about the heat shrink tubing. The metal cap will never get that hot.

If you think about it for a minute you will recall that while the plastic cap did melt, plastic does not transfer heat well. Burn spots from bulbs and such will always be fairly localized. Metal on the other hand conducts heat much more readily and will act as a heat sink for the heat generated by the 27 ohm resistor.

I've done all my PW smokers that way. Never a problem.:thumbsup:


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Bob, Thank you for your help, but unfortunately, it did melt the heat shrink tubing only after about 10 minutes of run time.

I will most likely now send this engine to a good post war guy that can handle this on my behalf. This engine now needs someone with more expertise (and time) than me. 

Thanks for all of your help guys. 

Todd


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A couple thicknesses of Heatshrink should do the job. I'm sure that Lionel sells the braided sheath that is used on most puffers, that's where I got mine.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Gunrunner. Hope you are having a good New Year.

Todd


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