# 763e pilot dragging



## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

The pilot (cow catcher) on the front of my pre-war 763e Hudson is dragging in the track, and I'm hoping someone here who knows the Hudsons can give me some ideas on what to check. First, a bit of pertinent history. 

This train was handed down to me 30 years ago, and has been sitting unused ever since, as I had no layout on which to run it. It had no pilot, and the arrangement of screws, springs, and washers on the fore and aft trucks was all wrong. I take this as a likely sign that the prior owner had a similar issue, and was trying to resolve it long before having the advantage of the collected knowledge of this forum, or easy access to information (internet).

I got in touch with Jeff at the Train Tender, who is not a Hudson expert, but did have all the parts. He also sent me some notes on variation of the leading truck installation, possibly from one of the Hudson experts on this forum, which differed a bit from Lionel's literature. 

I do not believe the front truck installation has anything to do with the dragging pilot, as raising the train enough to get the pilot off the tracks actually causes the front drive wheels to come off the track, I'm only mentioning the front truck for full disclosure. 

It seems to me the issue is more likely the way the body is mounted to the motor/drive assembly, but I have not disassembled to that level. I'm hoping someone here having experience with these Hudsons can tell me if that's a worthwhile effort, and what I'd be looking for, if I do. 

It's also possible I just have the wrong front pilot. It fits nicely, otherwise, but I do seem to recall (2 years ago) this part was actually listed for one of the other Hudson models. 


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

Can you post some photos?

These engines, unfortunately, are known to warp, causing operating issues, but posting some photos would be a huge help.


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## David 1005 (Jul 1, 2012)

I believe the cause of the pilot dragging is that the boiler shell is growing and bending the frame. Don Hagar has put out two hands on DVDs on the Hudson. "The Lionel 700E and 763E Hudson Locomotive" covers all the problems, which problems can be fixed, and how to do it. In this DVD he covers the pilot hitting the center rail. There are some adjustments that can be made to correct this. The other DVD is "Disassembly and Reassembly The Lionel 700E Hudson Locomotive". I would never try to dissemble to 700E with out watching this several times first. The 763 would be easier to dissembling, but I think you could still get help from this DVD. I found the DVDs on line. Try www.hagerfilms.com.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I have little knowledge of pre war Hudsons but was told just a few days ago by a 700E owner that a dragging pilot is a sign of zinc pest in the body as David implies. Having never owned a pre war Hudson I can't tell you that replacing the pilot will fix this. 
You might want to contact these folks before diving in. The owner is one of the leading specialists on these engines. Despite the name similarities this is not Justrains in Delaware.

http://justtrains.com

Pete


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't have one but usually there is a spring in the front pilot truck lifting it up. If its missing or worn that will lead to the front cow catcher bottoming out. Edited to add, if the spring is there you could try pulling it apart to gain some clearance. Other causes can be going up too steep of a grade of a bent cow catcher. The cow catcher can be bent back carefully, if that is the cause I can walk you through that too.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies, guys. In this case, the cow catcher is actually causing the front drive wheels to lift off the track, so it's not just an issue of the pilot truck spring or mounting. 

I'll be very bummed and surprised if it's a tweaked body or chassis, but I guess we'll see! Everything looks straight and unaffected by corrosion. I'll post some pictures momentary. 

I was wrong stating I had purchased this cow catcher from Jeff at Train Tender. I bought several other parts for this train from him, including the odd (3-36, I think) screw for mounting it, but the cow catcher was and eBay reproduction. Reputable seller, I think, and directly labeled for 763e. Still, maybe I should visit Jeff, and try his for size. 

I will definitely check out those Hagar DVDs. They'll surely be useful and informative, for this and other concerns. Thanks!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Photos. 





























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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

More. 





























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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Cowcatcher looks like very poor aftermarket part from a different engine. Looks very poor quality compared to rest of loco.

It looks to me, that the Cowcatcher should rest in those two depressions in the front drag beam. Those depressions wouldn't be there without a reason.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I tried holding a square onto a printed image of the photo taken from the side, the portion from the steam chest forward doesn't seem to be a true 90 degrees .. I checked from the vertical casting mark on the stream chest, and also from the rivet line on the front of the boiler .. Almost seems like the portion forward of the steam chest is bent down a little ??
I wonder if that's why there are rub marks from the front pilot wheelset as well??
just guessing, no experience with these at all ..


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## David 1005 (Jul 1, 2012)

Hi. I checked several pilots marked "700E-11" and they are all 0.585" from the underside of the pilot beam to the under side of the pilot. If your pilot meets this dimension, the problem is probably somewhere other than the pilot itself. The pilot you have is the style used on the 700E, not the 763E. The 700E pilot was set up for a scale drop coupler. There was no coupler on the 763, however there are lots of variations so anything is possible. Is the pilot in your photos from Olsens? If the problem is the pilot you need to watch eBay and check with various parts dealers. The 700E has been reissued and copied. There are lots of parts around if you watch for them. The pilot is vulnerable to damage and there is demand for that part. There is a sticky post at the top of this section of this board on parts dealers. It might pay to read it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea, I was wondering what was hitting the top of the pilot truck. Looks like the wheels are rubbing on it? Is there a spacer spring above it? Also one of the pilot truck rear wheels does not contact the track in one of the pictures? Maybe its bent? Or it it missing a spacer or spring? Anyone have one to compare it to or a1 diagram?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It almost looks like it should have a cup washer and spring under the middle of the pilot truck. I'm not sure on that. And the rear spring on the front truck might have too much tension? That's why the rear wheels are off the rail when standing? Maybe it causes it to bounce because it it out of balance? Kinda like holding a piece of paper at one end , if its supported in 2 spots it bounces less? Just throwing ideas out , maybe one will help


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just had a thought to look up the post war version. It seams I might have been right. In the diagram the spring is in the wrong place. It should be over the middle of the truck. I think they are similar in design. Try it.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

BWA said:


> Cowcatcher looks like very poor aftermarket part from a different engine. Looks very poor quality compared to rest of loco.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks to me, that the Cowcatcher should rest in those two depressions in the front drag beam. Those depressions wouldn't be there without a reason.



I agree. It is a very poor quality reproduction. My current thinking is that it is either the wrong cow catcher for this loco (it should not have a coupler hole, after all), or simply isn't sitting square on the loco due to poor dimensional tolerances. However, I don't believe those depressions are for the cow catcher. I could be wrong.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

wvgca said:


> I tried holding a square onto a printed image of the photo taken from the side, the portion from the steam chest forward doesn't seem to be a true 90 degrees .. I checked from the vertical casting mark on the stream chest, and also from the rivet line on the front of the boiler .. Almost seems like the portion forward of the steam chest is bent down a little ??
> I wonder if that's why there are rub marks from the front pilot wheelset as well??
> just guessing, no experience with these at all ..




Rub marks are because the wrong springs / washers were installed on trucks, when I received the loco. That has been corrected.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> Just had a thought to look up the post war version. It seams I might have been right. In the diagram the spring is in the wrong place. It should be over the middle of the truck. I think they are similar in design. Try it.
> View attachment 242553




Thanks for looking this up, but the pre-war design was quite different. I have the original documentation, as well as a correction offered by one of the Hudson experts who frequents the Train Tender. I tried mine both ways, and both worked pretty well, but are not relevant to this issue. The front truck does not need to support the weight of this train, and the cow catcher is hanging so low it's actually lifting the front drive wheels off the track, not just the pilot truck.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Here is a picture from eBay of a 763e chassis. It still looks like your spring is in the wrong spot , even if it isn't the problem it might be contributing to the problem.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Now, this Cowcatcher is different. It looks like it DOES drop into those cut-outs in the Pilot Beam.......

Pretty sure finding one of those would solve your problem....


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ah, I see it now! I also missed the post somehow about fixing the springs. Maybe it can be cut to fit?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Excellent find on the photo, sjm9911! I'm not too concerned with the springs, as that one is actually wrong according to the documentation (attached), and I can promise you it has nothing to do with why that cow catcher is dragging. Again, my fixed forward DRIVE wheels wheels are clean off the track, I might as well completely remove the pilot.

But look at the way that cow catcher fits! It's totally different than the one I purchased off ebay. I had not been able to find a photo like this myself, so thanks!

Going by a post earlier in this thread, that one is also not correct for a 763e (it has a forward coupler hole), but at least it fits!

I need to visit the Train Tender, to see the one they stock, ASAP.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Oh, to answer an earlier question, the cow catcher was purchased from seller toytrainparts on ebay. It was advertised as "for Lionel 763E Cow Catcher (1 part) ( item: 190980847281)".


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol springs in both spots I couldn't find that diagram, even on Olson's.


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## eeb4 (Sep 30, 2015)

Most issues with a dragging pilot on 763E and 700E are due to a slight warping of the frame, not uncommon with these engines. The warped frame causes pilot truck to take the brunt of the weight, often raising the forward drive wheels off the track, as it appears in this case. Some have shaved the pilot along the bottom to get more space between the pilot and the track or raised the body of the engine with spacers. In any case, they are great engines. I have attached some pictures of a couple of 763e pilots and pilot trucks.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, 3 pictures all with diffrent cow catchers.


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