# Three Dollar Stay / Keep Alive Modules



## wvgca

as the title says ...
Low cost, simple stay / keep alive circuit ..about three dollars per unit final cost with all components. in all variations that I have made ..

I used normal double stack [5.5v] super caps, in series of three, for 16.5v capacity

I did not consider the use of 16 to 25v normal electrolytics as few manufacturers use these .. [Lenz, etc]

As a baseline I chose for reference the two common TCS versions, the KA1 and KA2, rated for around 36kf, and 200kf respectively,

The use of 0.1F caps will give close to the same as the KA1, 0.22F caps will give about double, and 0.33F caps will result in approximately triple the reserve capacity of the KA1, and just over half of the KA2 ..two of these smaller [0.33f x 3] arrays can be wired in parallel to give the same capacity as a KA2, but easier to install because of the smaller size, 

The next commonly available size of super caps is 1F, and three in series will give about 165% of the KA2, but in a larger final package ..

For all versions I used a 1A 20V rated schottky diode, and a 180 ohm charge limit resistor, the only reason for the schottky diode was just to reduce the loss through the diode slightly, [from 0.67v to around half of that]. Normal 1N4001or equivalent can be also used

These can be built in 'flat' or 'round' styles to suit the install space, and assembly time [for me anyways], is under ten minutes ..

In the photos you will notice that the 0.22f and 0.33f are very similar in size, and the 1.0F and 1.5F are also similar to each other, these all came from ebay, and were all around the 0.75 cost each, red is common power, [didn't have blue], black is ground


































enjoy


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## time warp

Neat idea! 
For the unknowing and uninformed among us:
A simple schematic please, to show parts orientation,
And, what will we use this for?
Not nitpicking, but some of us are learning as we go.


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> A simple schematic please, to show parts orientation,


sure 

three links to show usage / general information ..
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm
http://www.dccwiki.com/Energy_Storage


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## gunrunnerjohn

Nice work, and a cheap alternative.


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## wvgca

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Nice work, and a cheap alternative.


The way my logic works, is that if I only spend three dollars on this, rather than a 'store bought' one for thirty five, that means I have the other thirty two dollars to spend on something else for my layout .. yep , saving money


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, it's "sort of" saving money.  I use the same logic with my upgrade products. I sell them and build up my bank account so I can buy more expensive stuff I don't really need.


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## Lemonhawk

So if I understand the circuit, the diode blocks current when the unit is charging, thus the resistor gets into the circuit and when the input drive voltage disappears the diode puts the stored energy out to the world, bypassing the resistor right?


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## Lemonhawk

I often wondered if the F1 race cars use super caps instead of batteries. They always talk about charging the batteries during breaking, but since they are using the energy virtually every lap it would seem that super caps would be a better choice than an actual battery. When I was an electrical engineer in college, we always laughed about a 1f cap being the size of a box car, but we were also experimenting with thyratrons...


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## wvgca

Lemonhawk said:


> So if I understand the circuit, the diode blocks current when the unit is charging, thus the resistor gets into the circuit and when the input drive voltage disappears the diode puts the stored energy out to the world, bypassing the resistor right?


yep, that's all it is 
it's an older design, and has been out there for a while ..built and used by many others, I just did pictures .. it isn't the best design, but easy for most people to build, and low cost ..
For 'most' systems, the DCC voltage is maybe 13.5V, so a 16.5V array gives a reasonable safety margin, and in many cases the decoder will not function below 6 or 7 volts, so about half of the stored energy is actually useable .. but still better than nothing for track power drops because of dirt, or non powered frogs and the like


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## Mark R.

The resistor is there to slow the charging rate. Most DCC systems will see an in-rush of current to capacitors as a short. By slowing down this in-rush, it won't trip the system.

Mark.


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## wvgca

tomorrow, if i can get some spare time, i want to take three of the 1.5F capacitors, and mount them ... curiosity in regards to whether or not the actual DCC signal is strong enough, by induction, to control a loco running on keep alive caps, to be controlled when the track is covered with masking tape with no direct track to loco connection..
my guess [at this point] is yes ..


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## time warp

I see this more as an accumulator, functionally similar to a device used in hydraulic circuits.


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> I see this more as an accumulator, functionally similar to a device used in hydraulic circuits.


yep, pretty much ..
not much different [except for size] than a re-chargable battery pack
advantages of this over a hydraulic accumulator .. no service tech to do nitrogen pre charge, no 'bang valve' noise, and if it springs a leak, no wheres near as messy ")


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## time warp

I take it that you don't want to adapt hydraulics to DCC?:laugh::laugh:


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## wvgca

did some wandering on the net regarding induced DCC signals, and found an interesting bit of information attributed to Stan Ames ...
basically it said
"The second test was to run the locomotive back onto the tape, this time stopping, reversing, starting, stopping, again reversing, all while on the tape, then accelerating quickly off the tape. All of the DCC users and many of the astute dc users immediately realized for themselves the significance of this second test - that the DCC signals were being picked up right through the tape."
apparantly the test was done with a Lenz Gold decdoder ... 
and I have no reason to question Stan Ames


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## Mark R.

wvgca said:


> did some wandering on the net regarding induced DCC signals, and found an interesting bit of information attributed to Stan Ames ...
> basically it said
> "The second test was to run the locomotive back onto the tape, this time stopping, reversing, starting, stopping, again reversing, all while on the tape, then accelerating quickly off the tape. All of the DCC users and many of the astute dc users immediately realized for themselves the significance of this second test - that the DCC signals were being picked up right through the tape."
> apparantly the test was done with a Lenz Gold decdoder ...
> and I have no reason to question Stan Ames


I witness that happening at the Lenz booth at the NMRA Convention when it was in Detroit - back in 2007 ! I witnessed it myself doing exactly as what you decribed. However, I believe that it was just that particular feature of the Gold decoders that would do this. Must contain some extra sensitive circuitry to detect this. Standard decoders will not.

Mark.


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## wvgca

Mark R.
so, as far as you have seen.. the lenz gold decoder will pick up the command signals with out direct physical contact with the track...
did they try any other decoders to your knowledge?? 
it's a lot of test work to try other brands or models of decoders to see if any other, especially the newer ones from tcs, etc that have come out in the last ten years since that test date that you witnessed,..may be able to duplicate this effect?
I'm guessing that it's the wires attached to the decoder input power leads that may pick up the signal .. don't see any other component working in that fashion ?
just as a humorous aside, a picture isn't required to prove that "FACT"
thanks for the confirmation ..


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## Mark R.

Well, if Ed had demanded proof, I could have provided this link ....






I pretty certain it requires some kind of onboard circuitry to amplify (?) the weakened signal. Lenz calls it USP - Uninterruptable Signal Processing. More information on their site ....

http://www.lenzusa.com/1newsite1/USP.html

The USP technology is part of the circuitry within the decoder itself - obviously, they won't divulge HOW it works ! Used in conjuction with a "stay alive" module, you have full control of your engine even with no direct connection.

Mark.


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## wvgca

very nice video
thanks for sharing it


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## ED-RRR

*"Stolen" Technical Theft From Me..*

*Past History:*

*[wvgca]: "Thread"*
02-07-2016 (Feb. 07 / 2016)..
Curiosity: KeepAlive for DC loco's 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=70178









*[ED-RRR]:* "Same Thread = "Posting" 
02-15-2016 (Feb. 15 / 2016)..

*(#1)*
A "Charging Resistor" is used, 100 Ohm (1/2 Watt)..
To limit the charging inrush current !! 

*(#2)*
1.Amp 50V Diode.. 
To bypass the resistor, when the capacitor discharges !!










*This "New" Posting:*

*[wvgca]: "Thread"*
08-05-2016 (Aug. 05 / 2016
Three Dollar Stay / Keep Alive Modules
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=94802

*Look at this picture..*
Does it not look like the "Above" picture ??
Why is [wvgca] using a wire cutter to "Remove" the "Exact" previous "Soldered" capacitors ??









Now a 180 ohm charge limit resistor is *"Required"..*









*Special Notes:*
This has been already discussed in great depth, in another "Thread" in this "Forum"..
I have proven [ED-RRR] with the help from a professional electrical engineer, Mark Gurries a NMRA [DCC] engineer,
that it is better "Not" to use Bi-Polar/Non-Polar "Capacitors" for *[DCC]* decoder operations.. 

......


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## time warp

Not only does W have Alzheimers, he's a thief as well! :smilie_auslachen:
Good job, Ed. And while we're at it, thanks for inventing nickel silver track also!
You da Man! :appl:


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Look at this picture..*
> Does it not look like the "Above" picture ??
> Why is [wvgca] using a wire cutter to "Remove" the "Exact" previous "Soldered" capacitors ??
> 
> Now a 180 ohm charge limit resistor is *"Required"..*
> 
> it is better "Not" to use Bi-Polar/Non-Polar "Capacitors" for *[DCC]* decoder operations..
> ......


Yes, ED-RRR, you are absolutely correct ...

the three dollar DCC module used the exact same super capacitors that I had used in the previous DC module, but I did have to resolder them together again, the DC module was taken apart quite some time ago..

as far a value of the current limit resistor, you can use any value that you feel is appropriate, I decided to use 180 to reduce inrush current to what I felt was appropriate for me .. it will take longer to fully charge, no other difference

And yes, bipolar capacitor arrays are not required for DCC usage, that why there are three, not six....

And any rating diode over normal working voltage will work, so you can use 50V ones if that's what you have handy 

You have excellent vision noticing that I used the same caps as before ... good job 
...
and I do appreciate the comments, it helps to keep this thread alive on here :appl:


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## Mark R.

Ed - the difference between the two threads is, this one is pertaining to DCC stay alive, where-as the "other" thread was pertaining to an attempt at DC stay alive. Exact same components, slightly different concept.

Mark.


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## ED-RRR

*[wvgca] --> Stay Alive..*



Mark R. said:


> Ed - the difference between the two threads is, this one is pertaining to DCC stay alive,
> where-as the "other" thread was pertaining to an attempt at DC stay alive.
> Exact same components, slightly different concept.
> Mark.


*Fact: (#1)*
*[wvgca]* other "Thread" (Stay Alive) for V-DC "Failed",
because there is "Not" a constant "Power supply" to the train track..

*Fact: (#2)*
*[wvgca] *(Stay Alive) will operate on *[DCC]* because there is always a constant "Power supply" to the train track..

*Fact: (#3)*
*[DCC]* track operates using V-AC.. (Alternating Current)..
This (Stay Alive) "Only" operates using V-DC.. (Direct Current)..









*Warning:*
There are "Many" different "Manufactures" that have totally "Different" locomotive circuit boards..

*[wvgca]: Question*
Where does the (+) wire and (-) wire from your (Stay Alive) connect to a locomotive circuit board ??

*Warning:*
Incorrect wire connections from *[wvgca]* --> (Stay Alive) may/will "Destroy" your locomotive circuit board !!

......


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## time warp

Electrolytics by design require DC, but the object is to utilize the storage effect to overcome possible current fluctuations introduced via imperfect wheel/ rail contact, which is inevitable.
Also I would not agree that a DC application of this device should be termed a failure. I had visited with W about it a couple of weeks ago, and though I wouldn't really term it a " keep alive" it does provide excellent filtering which would translate to smoother operation. Again, with reference to the inevitable imperfect wheel / rail contact ( frogs, rail gaps, etc.).
Obviously the addition of mechanical flywheels is a great help, but as W had noted, his performance testing demonstrated that the headlight stayed relatively constant which indicates a " cleaner" current supply to the motor.


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *
> 
> Fact: (#3)
> [DCC] track operates using V-AC.. (Alternating Current)..
> This (Stay Alive) "Only" operates using V-DC.. (Direct Current)..*


*

"Yes, it's intended to be connected to the decoder, after the rectifier diodes, not the track itself, sorry, I should have made that clear to you"




[wvgca]: Question
Where does the (+) wire and (-) wire from your (Stay Alive) connect to a locomotive circuit board ??

Click to expand...

"Connection is made to the same places as you would make with a TCS KA1 or KA2, as examples"




Warning:
Incorrect wire connections from [wvgca] --> (Stay Alive) may/will "Destroy" your locomotive circuit board !!

Click to expand...

"Yes, very true, if you are not confident in your own abilities to find the ground connection on your decoder, I would suggest that you NOT attempt this type of installation"

......

any more questions, please feel free to ask ")*


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## ED-RRR

*To The Decoder, After The Rectifier Diodes [DCC] ??*



wvgca said:


> "Yes, it's intended to be connected to the decoder, after the rectifier diodes, not the track itself,
> sorry, I should have made that clear to you"
> "Connection is made to the same places as you would make with a TCS KA1 or KA2, as examples"


*[wvgca]: Question*
Have you even "Looked" at:
- SoundTraxx "Current Keeper".. (With Wire Connector)..
- Digitrax "Power Xtender" .. (With Wire Connector)..
- KA# "Keep-Alive".. (With Wire Connector)..

*[wvgca]: Fact*
Each "Different" manufacture (Stay Alive) has a different "Wired Connector" and different "Polarity" connections..
Each "Different" manufacture of a *[DCC]* "Decoder" will have a "Different" wired connection for the (Stay Alive) connections..

*[wvgca]: Project*
Give up with this no brainer "Useless" project..
You have "Not" included all the different "Required" variables for each "Different" *[DCC] *decoder..

*Warning: (#1)*
No (x2) different manufactured *[DCC]* locomotive modules are the "Same"..

*Warning: (#2)*
Build your own (Stay Alive)..
Incorrect wire connections from *[wvgca]* --> (Stay Alive) may/will "Destroy" your locomotive circuit board !!

......


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## wvgca

sorry ED-RRR
can't help you out
I finally ran out of crayons ..


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## time warp

So, what? Are we now dealing with random polarity?
Aren't electronic components built to common standards?
"Floating" polarity values?:dunno:


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## ED-RRR

*[wvgca] Projects.. (x2)..*



wvgca said:


> sorry ED-RRR
> can't help you out
> I finally ran out of crayons ..


*[wvgca]: Questions*

*(#1) This "Thread"*
Three Dollar Stay / Keep Alive Modules 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=94802
Without any "Required" technical information how to "Correctly" connect *[wvgca]* your "Keep Alive Module" module..

*(#2) Another "Thread"*
Curious: making my own DCC decoder 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=91449
When on the interenet *[DCC]* decoders are "Only" between US $20.00 --> US $30.00 as per NMRA "Standards", 
-But-
*[wvgca]* custom made *[DCC]* "Decoder" circuit board,
can be made "Cheaper" ($'s), "Not" using 'not NMRA "Standards"..
......


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## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]: Questions*
> 
> *(#1) This "Thread"*
> Three Dollar Stay / Keep Alive Modules
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=94802
> Without any "Required" technical information how to "Correctly" connect *[wvgca]* your "Keep Alive Module" module..
> 
> *(#2) Another "Thread"*
> Curious: making my own DCC decoder
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=91449
> When on the interenet *[DCC]* decoders are "Only" between US $20.00 --> US $30.00 as per NMRA "Standards",
> -But-
> *[wvgca]* custom made *[DCC]* "Decoder" circuit board,
> can be made "Cheaper" ($'s), "Not" using 'not NMRA "Standards"..
> ......


ED, you stated earlier that W stole your idea for a DCC keep alive. If you could purchase a ready made one " on the internet", why did you allegedly build one like you said?
Doesn't that make your alleged project useless too? So now you are saying that wvgca- not only stole your useless information, but also that he cannot post a project involving electronics unless you fact check it first through the all knowing, infallible internet?
That makes no sense.


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## Cycleops

wvgca said:


> sorry ED-RRR
> can't help you out
> I finally ran out of crayons ..


 sorry but you can never win with ED. Your best tactic is not to engage with him. TW too.


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## time warp

You are correct,Sir! Notice how everyone else pretty well gets along around here?
Always good to hear from you.


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## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]: Fact*
> Each "Different" manufacture (Stay Alive) has a different "Wired Connector" and different "Polarity" connections..
> Each "Different" manufacture of a *[DCC]* "Decoder" will have a "Different" wired connection for the (Stay Alive) connections..


Nope .... ALL stay-alive modules have the exact same polarity connections - positive and negative, regardless of the syle of connector.

Nope again .... ALL decoders have the exact same place where the stay alive module is connected. ALL decoders have a diode array (bridge rectifier) to convert the AC signal to DC, and that is where the stay alive connection must be made.

Mark.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Oh no, the *Fact* tags are not factual?


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## ED-RRR

*Bridge Rectifier - But Where..*



Mark R. said:


> .... ALL decoders have the exact same place where the stay alive module is connected.
> ALL decoders have a diode array (bridge rectifier) to convert the AC signal to DC, and that is where the stay alive connection must be made.
> Mark.


I have supplied a picture of what *[Mark R.] *is talking about..









*Fact: #1*
So it is frowned upon me to get (100%) proven "Technical" information from the "Internet".. 
- Also -
Not to have actual “Experience” using a posted device..
- But -
It is A.O.K. for *[Mark R.]* to simply say (ALL decoders have the exact same place where the stay alive module is connected) without any actual “Experience”.. 

*Fact: #2*
Yes the statement from *[Mark R.] *is (100%) correct..
- But -
Each "Different" manufactured decoder circuit board is built "Differently".. (Very Small Integrated Circuits)..

*Question: (#1)*
*[Mark R.]*: Where would you connect the (+) and (-) connections from the "Stay Alive" to this "Digitrax" DH150A *[DCC]* module ??









*Question: (#2)*
When installing a "Stay Alive" onto a circuit board, do you (100%) know where the (+) and (-) locations are located,
onto a very small integrated circuit board ??

*Warning: *
Incorrect wire connections --> (Stay Alive) may/will "Destroy" your locomotive circuit board !!

*Fact: #3*
The same "Hecklers" are "Only" attacking me without any actual proven "Technical" information to contribute to this "Thread"..



wvgca said:


> "Connection is made to the same places as you would make with a TCS KA1 or KA2, as examples"


*Question: (#3)*
*[wvgca]* "Only" stated as per manufactured "Stay Alive"..
Why did he "Not" advise that there are "Many" different customized wire connections required..

*Special Note:*
I am presently working on another "Posting" *(TBA)* how to connect a "Stay Alive" to a locomotive circuit board..
Sorry, but again I must use "Copy-N-Paste" to find (100%) "Technical Facts"..

......


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## time warp

Yes ED, do that! But please please do not take the word of intelligent people who work with these devices daily.
By the way, isn't this forum on the internet?


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## ED-RRR

*Constant Attacks - Why..*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Oh no, the *Fact* tags are *not factual?*


*(#1)*
I am fully abiding by the "Forum Rules"..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/misc.php?do=page&template=ForumRules

*(#2)*
Why is *[gunrunnerjohn]* constantly attacking me *[ED-RRR]* when he is the *"Administrator"* of this *"Forum" ??*

*(#3)*
Why can I "Not" post (100%) actual proven "Facts" to "Help" others in this "Forum" ??

......


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## redman88

Because your facts aren't 100% facts.


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## redman88

Digitrax's site doesn't list a dh150a decoder.


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## Cycleops

Unfortunately it is a Digitrax product but it's no longer available as its been replaced by another model.


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## ED-RRR

*Definitions.. Heckler -OR- Moron..*

*(#1)*
*"Heckler Definition"*
http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/heckler
Full Definition of a Heckler..
- a person who causes repeated emotional pain, distress, or annoyance to another
- harasser, tormentor, mocker, needler, teaser ...

*(#2)*
*"Moron Definition"*
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moron
Full Definition of a Moron..
- usually offensive : a person affected with mild mental retardation
- a very stupid person

*Question:*
Do any individuals that are "Not" posting any actual "Technical" information to this "Thread",
meet the definition of being a "Heckler" -OR- being a "Moron" ??

*Some Perfect Examples: *

*(#1)*


redman88 said:


> Digitrax's site doesn't list a dh150a decoder.





redman88 said:


> Because your facts aren't 100% facts.





Cycleops said:


> Unfortunately it is a Digitrax product but it's no longer available as its been replaced by another model.


*Fact:*
So Digitrax "No" longer manufactures the DH150a *[DCC] *decoder..

*Question: (#1)*
How does an "Individual" presently having a "Digitrax" DH150a *[DCC] *decoder connect a "Stay Alive" ??

......


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## time warp

You might go back and look at post 27, and then look at post 34 again. You said yourself that digitrax and soundtraxx both had connectors to plug in, right?

This is incredible! A person that has been banned from a social hobby website! How bad is that?
Ed, your postings might as well be written in Latin. Actually they would probably be more coherent that way.


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## ED-RRR

*[wvgca].. Three Dollar Stay / Keep Alive Modules ??*

*This Thread:*
*[wvgca]*
*Aug-05-2016*
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=94802

*Old Thread:*
*[ED-RRR]*
*Jan-31-2016.. (x7 Months Earlyier)..*
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562

*Question: *
Does it not look very "Familiar" to *[wvgca]* project that he "Stold" from my "Thread",
where I posted actual (100%) proof "Technical" information from the *"Internet" ??*









......


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## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> where I posted actual (100%) proof "Technical" information from the *"Internet" ??*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: *
> Does it not look very "Familiar" to *[wvgca]* project that he "Stold" from my "Thread",
> where I posted actual (100%) proof "Technical" information from the *"Internet" ??*
> 
> View attachment 216417
> 
> 
> ......


Do you think putting a capacitor, diode, and resistor together is a really difficult concept? Do you actually think you're the first person to think of this?

Be very careful accusing people of stealing things. You have proof of this supposed crime, right?

How about you stick to the facts you're so frequently quoting, because from where I sit, you have no proof of anything other than a garden variety concept was posted more than once on the Internet, hardly a revelation or a crime. If that's a crime, you copying all the stuff in your threads from the Internet is a major crime spree!


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## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> - But -
> It is A.O.K. for *[Mark R.]* to simply say (ALL decoders have the exact same place where the stay alive module is connected) without any actual “Experience”..
> 
> 
> 
> *Question: (#1)*
> *[Mark R.]*: Where would you connect the (+) and (-) connections from the "Stay Alive" to this "Digitrax" DH150A *[DCC]* module ??
> 
> View attachment 216321
> 
> 
> *Question: (#2)*
> When installing a "Stay Alive" onto a circuit board, do you (100%) know where the (+) and (-) locations are located,
> onto a very small integrated circuit board ??
> 
> *Fact: #3*
> The same "Hecklers" are "Only" attacking me without any actual proven "Technical" information to contribute to this "Thread"..
> 
> *Special Note:*
> I am presently working on another "Posting" *(TBA)* how to connect a "Stay Alive" to a locomotive circuit board..
> Sorry, but again I must use "Copy-N-Paste" to find (100%) "Technical Facts"..
> 
> ......


Without any actual experience ? WTF ? Seriously ? I've worked with both TCS and ESU in the early stages of product development, installed hundreds of decoders and stay-alive module in my business for eight years on most all brands of decoders using both commercial and home-brewed devices, yet you have the gall to say I have no experience ? I have but two words for you in response to that. 

You have no problem copying and pasting whatever you find on the internet, but flatly refuse to believe ANY of us here have any experience what-so-ever. As for know where to attach a stay-alive module, yes - I DO know for 100% where to attach it. On the 2% that aren't obvious visually, a quick meter reading would verify where. 

The connections for the decoder you pictured .... positive would be the second tab from the top on the right hand side and the negative would would be on the square diode in the upper right quadrant (the one with the letters right-side up) and connected to the non-stripe end.

As for the administrator continuing to treat you as such, be thankful I'm not an administrator here - you would have been on a time-out long ago ....

Mark.


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## ED-RRR

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Do you think putting a capacitor, diode, and resistor together is a really difficult concept?
> Do you actually think you're the first person to think of this?
> Be very careful accusing people of *stealing things. *
> You have proof of this supposed crime, right?


"Yes" I do.. 
I already posted this "Subject".. 
Old Thread:
[ED-RRR]
*Jan-31-2016.. (Only x7 Months Earlier)..*
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562
......


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## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> "Yes" I do..
> I already posted this "Subject"..
> Old Thread:
> [ED-RRR]
> *Jan-31-2016.. (Only x7 Months Earlier)..*
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562
> ......


Man, talk about "stealing" ! There's a grocery list of quotes and pictures you stole from all over the net to create THAT thread ! 

Mark.


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## wvgca

just thought that I would mention that most of the information that I used [besides basic common sense], 
was from the site run by Marcus Ammann

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm 
That particular page dates back to early 2005 or so, 

And I quite clearly stated that this was NOT a new design, and has been made and used by many other people previously, 
I built some, and took pictures, pretty straight forward ..

Some have been installed on friend's loco's and work fine 

Actual connections on a decoder without factory installed quick connectors are fairly basic, 
as Mark R. has described, and illustrated examples on Marcus' web page


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## ED-RRR

*Keep Alive Modules - Required Correct Wire Connections..*

*Warning: (#1)*
Incorrect wire connections --> (Stay Alive) may/will "Destroy" your locomotive circuit board !!

*Warning: (#2)*
Each manufactured locomotive "Circuit Board" are totally "Different".. (Not Exactly The Same)..

*Question: (#1)*
When installing a "Stay Alive" onto a circuit board, do you (100%) know where the *(+)* and *(-)* locations are located,
onto a very small integrated circuit board ??









*Special Note: (#1)*
Marcus Ammann’s is getting full "Credit" for the "Technical" information that I "Copy-N-Paste" from him on the "Internet".. 
Without using my "Copy-N-Paste" procedure from the "Internet",
I could "Not" show you "Actual Facts".. (100% True)..

*Warning: (#3)*
Marcus Ammann’s only posted "Some" (Stay Alive) required wire connections..
Again, each "Newer" manufactured locomotive "Circuit Board" are totally "Different".. (Not All The Same)..

*Special Note: (#2)*
Go here for some "Required" wire connections for a (Stay Alive)..
Marcus Ammann’s..
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm

Tsunami AT-1000
Tsunami GN-1000
Soundtraxx in Bachmann, Intermountain & Proto.
QSI Revolution A.
QSI Revolution U 
Loksound V3.5 
Loksound V4.0
DSD100-LC
DSD-AT100LC
DSD-B280LC
DSD-LL110LC
DSD150
TCS T1
NCE D14SR
NCE D408SR Decoder

Here is a picture of "Only" (x12) totally "Different" wire connections using a "Stay Alive" from Marcus Ammann..
Marcus Ammann also has more different "Stay Alive" required wire for other "Stay Alive" locomotive circuit boards..









*Warning: (#4)*
Many "Newer" *[DCC] *decoders are "Not" posted on Marcus Ammann web site..

*Special Note: (#3)*
Many "Newer Advanced" manufactured *[DCC]* "Decoders" now come with a "Special" (x2 Female Connection),
where a "Stay Alive" (x2 Male Connection) can be "Directly" plugged into..

============

*Question:*
To *[gunrunnerjohn]* and to other "Hecklers" in this "Thread"..
Is any of my "Posted" technical information --> "Incorrect" ??
......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *
> 
> Special Note: (#1)
> Marcus Ammann’s is getting full "Credit" for the "Technical" information that I "Copy-N-Paste" from him on the "Internet"..
> 
> ......*


*

well, duh ..ya :dunno:*


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## ED-RRR

*[wvgca]: Question*

*[wvgca]:* *Question*

Why are you taking *(Stealing)* information from my 
Old Thread:
[ED-RRR]
Jan-31-2016.. (x7 Months Earlyier)..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562

- And -

Calling it your *"Own" *advanced design ??
......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]:* *Question*
> 
> Why are you taking *(Stealing)* information from my
> Old Thread:
> [ED-RRR]
> Jan-31-2016.. (x7 Months Earlyier)..
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562
> 
> - And -
> 
> Calling it your *"Own" *advanced design ??
> ......


Some information I used was from Marcus, which not only pre dates your thread by ten 
years or so, but is also much easier to follow and understand ..

I don't consider this as 'advanced' as you seem to ..

nor did I state it was my own design ..

ps.. I went to Walmart and got a *"BIG"* box of crayons, I'm good to go


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## time warp

Okay if anybody is missing anything from these Snidbits of mis information , I've been trying to keep score:
Ed says that a simple arrangement of some capacitors, a resistor and a diode is an advanced design.
While accusing wvgca- of theft, ED did not notice that one of the links that Warren posted included Mark Gurries name. also ED stated that Mark was an nmra engineer. That would imply that Mark was employed by the nmra as an engineer.
Since somebody brought up the name Marcus Amman, all of a sudden now he's is ED's go-to Guy. Funny he never mentioned him before.


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## wvgca

Yes, in post three of this thread, I had links to Mark's and Marcus's webpages, there is a huge amount of excellent 
information on there about keep alives ..
plus I'm too lazy to do a whole bunch of 'cut 'n' paste' ..
also, in post nine,
"it's an older design, and has been out there for a while ..built and used by many others, I just did pictures"


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## time warp

Exactly! Point being that ED must have stolen it from there!
It pays to read very carefully what the little guy posts.


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## redman88

time warp said:


> Exactly! Point being that ED must have stolen it from there!
> 
> It pays to read very carefully what the little guy posts.




Actually ED himself links to that guys info in his thread


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## gunrunnerjohn

redman88 said:


> Actually ED himself links to that guys info in his thread


Guess they couldn't find it with all the colors, caps, special characters, etc.


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## redman88

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Guess they couldn't find it with all the colors, caps, special characters, etc.




It was the lack of that captured my my attention


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## time warp

redman88 said:


> Actually ED himself links to that guys info in his thread


I was just pointing out that Warren showed everybody where he had gotten some information, Ed is trying to say that it was his own idea.
He absolutely did post the links involving both of those gentlemen.
My entire purpose in calling him out is because of the nasty things he says about my friends on this forum. He is in no position to criticize anyone or question whether or not we offer help to each other. He has no idea what goes on behind the scenes.


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## redman88

Just trying to keep everyone honest.


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## time warp

Yes sir!


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## Patrick1544

Not to hijack this amusing thread, but is this guy, ED RRR, Related to Water Stop in some way? Just curious.


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## wvgca

if it matters, i was thinking about comparing motor run times between different motors, and different capacitance values of some sample keep alive modules ... 
anybody think it might be worthwhile ?


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## time warp

Relative to a momentum effect? With DCC, would that be more desirable at low speeds?
May be a dumb question.


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## Cycleops

Patrick1544 said:


> Not to hijack this amusing thread, but is this guy, ED RRR, Related to Water Stop in some way? Just curious.


In his case it was dementia I think, as for ED I have my own theories.


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## ED-RRR

*Going Off Subject..*

I "Now" follow all the rules and regulations in this "Forum"..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/misc.php?do=page&template=ForumRules
Even though many of these "Forum Rules" are being constantly "Broken" from many others in this "Forum"..

*[wvgca] *
This "Thread"..
Three Dollar Stay / Keep Alive Modules..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=94802
*[wvgca]* is taking full credit for his own designed "Project"..
*Aug-05-2016*

*[ED-RRR]*
I posted making your own "Stay Alive".. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562
I posted credit's to the individuals (Names & Locations)..
Unlike *[wvgca]*, I *[ED-RRR]* *"Never"* claimed that the information was my "*Own"..*
*Jan-31-2016.. <-- (x7 Months Earlier)..*

While some individuals in this "Thread" are "Going Off Subject" in this "Thread",
*[wvgca]* enjoys this, because you are totally "Forgetting" that he *"Stole" *this information from my *[ED-RRR]* previous "Thread"..








......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]* is taking full credit for his own designed "Project"..
> ......


Yep, I take full credit for this project .. I actually BUILT it, not 'cut and paste'. random images.

based primarily on information on Marcus's web page, [and common sense], and also somewhat on Mark Gurries page

It's not difficult, and many other people have built similar for many years before, I took photos and shared ..

Is there anything else that you want to waste time on?


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> Relative to a momentum effect? With DCC, would that be more desirable at low speeds?
> May be a dumb question.


No, kinda more like trying to see [relatively] how much energy is stored by different type of capacitor arrays, and how much spin time from different types of motors as well ...


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## wvgca

Cycleops said:


> In his case it was dementia I think, as for ED I have my own theories.


Well, ED-RRR seemed to be quite repetitive about getting a 'sticky' on another thread of his, but as near as I can tell, the glue dried up and the sticky fell off some time ago ..
But don't think he has noticed that .. must be busy with other things I guess? Good thing is that so far I haven't been blamed for stealing his sticky


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## time warp

Wvgca,I went back and read ED's keep alive thread. What a disaster! I did note, however that he did tell you to go start your own thread on the topic. Re: post #8


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## gunrunnerjohn

time warp said:


> I did note, however that he did tell you to go start your own thread on the topic.


I'm pretty sure I don't remember promoting him to moderator.


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## Cycleops

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm pretty sure I don't remember promoting him to moderator.


Now there's an idea.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Cycleops said:


> Now there's an idea.


A really scary one!


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## wvgca

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm pretty sure I don't remember promoting him to moderator.


now that would be , uh, interesting


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## CTValleyRR

wvgca said:


> now that would be , uh, interesting


Actually, it would be the fulfillment of a lifelong dream for ED -- a popular web site where he, and he alone, determines content! He came here looking for a blog, and found a forum instead.... 

Of course, how long anybody would stick around if that happened is anybody's guess. My own longevity would be measured in nanoseconds (and that only because the internet doesn't move faster).


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## wvgca

at one time ED-RRR had some pretty good stuff, interesting threads, with lots of pictures ...
however, any dissension with content quickly led to a great deal of 'off topic' posts


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