# Benchwork Budget Buster



## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

In the midst of benchwork planning and went to check on the price of lumber. I knew it had gone up this year, but yikes! Anyone have any suggestions on economizing, with as little impact as possible on quality?


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

3/4" plywood, ripped to 3 1/2" wide strips makes great, stable 1x4 stock at around half the price.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Pre-used lumber. Your local Habitat for Humanity REStore. Local building sites may have scraps they will let you have.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

dboone said:


> In the midst of benchwork planning and went to check on the price of lumber. I knew it had gone up this year, but yikes! Anyone have any suggestions on economizing, with as little impact as possible on quality?


dbone;

If I remember your benchwork plan correctly, I think you could use fewer legs and joists, without sacrificing strength/integrity much. You might not be able to jump up and down, or even crawl, on top of your layout, but do you really need to? The 2" thick foam you plan on using is very strong and rigid, & requires only minimal support. Also, as I mentioned on zoom, a foam filled box girder is as strong as an L-girder, and doesn't need any lumber thicker than 1/4" Luan.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

traction fan said:


> dbone;
> 
> If I remember your benchwork plan correctly, I think you could use fewer legs and joists, without sacrificing strength/integrity much. You might not be able to jump up and down, or even crawl, on top of your layout, but do you really need to? The 2" thick foam you plan on using is very strong and rigid, & requires only minimal support. Also, as I mentioned on zoom, a foam filled box girder is as strong as an L-girder, and doesn't need any lumber thicker than 1/4" Luan.
> 
> Traction Fan 🙂


I'm going to run some numbers this week to compare costs of those different solutions.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I bought the lumber for my layout at just the right time. The Baltic Birch sheets I used were less than $24 for a 5 x 5 sheet, now they're around $75 for the same thing! It's truly insane!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

dboone said:


> I'm going to run some numbers this week to compare costs of those different solutions.


dboone;

One other, rather odd, but cheap "benchwork" material is plastic pipe. Either PVC, or ABS, pipe is strong, totally resistant to warping, easy to cut and assemble, and cheap. You would need one inch or larger diameter, "Schedule 40" strong PVC, not the thin cheap stuff that bends and cracks.

Plastic pipe legs can be cross braced with diagonal pieces of pipe screwed onto the legs.
Pipe "frames" and "joists" can be glued together with PVC cement using the 'Tee' and 'Elbow' fittings available.
Section joints would, of course, need to be screwed together, not glued.
Extruded foam can be attached to plastic pipe with hot glue, double-sided tape, "Liquid Nails" adhesive (Use only the "for projects" type which won't attack foam.) , or screwed from below into expanding plastic anchors set into the foam. 

4' x 8' sheets of 1/4" thick Luan under the foam are optional. The continuous Luan is handy for mounting switch machines, and wiring, under the layout, but structurally is not needed if you use 2" thick extruded foam over joists at approx. 16" intervals. Small pieces of scrap lumber can be glued to the bottom of the foam to attach switch machines.

Since wood has become so expensive, plastic benchwork might be a viable alternative.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

If you compare the cost of lumber at say a Home Depot with the cost of the same benchwork from Mianne it makes sense to go with the latter. I’ve gotten my benchwork from them and it is perfect. So far their prices have remained the same. Now the top is a different matter.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

TJSmith said:


> If you compare the cost of lumber at say a Home Depot with the cost of the same benchwork from Mianne it makes sense to go with the latter. I’ve gotten my benchwork from them and it is perfect. So far their prices have remained the same. Now the top is a different matter.


Use foam for the top. That will avoid paying g for plywood.

Sievers is another option for pre-fab benchwork. Unfortunately, with all of these companies, you may find that the current economic conditions will force them to charge a premium over their list price.


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

shaygetz said:


> 3/4" plywood, ripped to 3 1/2" wide strips makes great, stable 1x4 stock at around half the price.


3/4" Plywood is almost $75 for a 4'x8' sheet here. Ripped to 1x4 that's about $5.87 per 8' length. A 1x4x8 is $7.30, so a savings of 20%. However, I'm planning on using 1x2s and 1x3s to make L-girders. This will cost me $5.06 per 8' length. I might just have to bite the bullet.


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

TJSmith said:


> If you compare the cost of lumber at say a Home Depot with the cost of the same benchwork from Mianne it makes sense to go with the latter. I’ve gotten my benchwork from them and it is perfect. So far their prices have remained the same. Now the top is a different matter.


I ran the numbers and am really only looking at about $350. That is definitely about $150 more than I expected, but nowhere near the $1000 at Mianne.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

dboone said:


> 3/4" Plywood is almost $75 for a 4'x8' sheet here. Ripped to 1x4 that's about $5.87 per 8' length. A 1x4x8 is $7.30, so a savings of 20%. However, I'm planning on using 1x2s and 1x3s to make L-girders. This will cost me $5.06 per 8' length. I might just have to bite the bullet.


Wow...been only a few months since I've been wood shopping...election do indeed have consequences. The gain from the stability of the ply would still make it worthwhile. Girders from 1x2s and 1x3s made from ply could stand up to a bar room brawl...


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

shaygetz said:


> Wow...been only a few months since I've been wood shopping...election do indeed have consequences. The gain from the stability of the ply would still make it worthwhile. Girders from 1x2s and 1x3s made from ply could stand up to a bar room brawl...


There are a number of reasons of the shortage, very few of which have to do with the last election, if you want to bring politics into it.

1. Demand for new home construction has remained steady.
2. There is a decreased supply of raw timber due to environmental impacts like bark-beetles and wildfires.
3. Covid shutdown some lumber companies and this work stoppage is finally getting around to impacting supply.

A friend of mine works for one of the largest commercial construction companies in the US. He's an architect and basically is in charge of building out the bids for these large contracts, so he has a pulse on the pertinent commodities. He has told me that there are lots of issue getting lumber and timber in from Canada, our largest trade partner in the industry, due to slow vaccine roll out there. That's antidotal of course.

That said, I hope we don't have any brawls in my train room.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

> That said, I hope we don't have any brawls in my train room.


Yeah...I guess it's an honorable goal...them DCC guys can get frisky.

I live in a lumber area, so it's not touching us quite as bad.


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

shaygetz said:


> Yeah...I guess it's an honorable goal...them DCC guys can get frisky.
> 
> I live in a lumber area, so it's not touching us quite as bad.


I've heard reports as high as 400%, but it's closer to 250% to 300% here in the mountain west. I imagine the pacific northwest isn't as bad. I know some woodworkers that use pine beetle wood here, I might check that out. Could be better quality than the stuff at Lowes or HD as well.


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## ARR (Oct 15, 2017)

dboone said:


> .... there are lots of issue getting lumber and timber in from Canada, our largest trade partner in the industry, due to slow vaccine roll out there. That's antidotal of course.


Please tell me that pun was intended.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

It helps that our woods is primarily farm raised and we've had no real fires in many years.


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

ARR said:


> Please tell me that pun was intended.


Nope I wish I were that smart. Just bad spelling, LOL.


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

traction fan said:


> dboone;
> 
> One other, rather odd, but cheap "benchwork" material is plastic pipe. Either PVC, or ABS, pipe is strong, totally resistant to warping, easy to cut and assemble, and cheap. You would need one inch or larger diameter, "Schedule 40" strong PVC, not the thin cheap stuff that bends and cracks.
> 
> ...


I am modeling in N scale and will have a layout that is two 4 ft by 4 ft squares of 2 inch polystyrene insulation board connected by a 2 ft by 6-8 ft rectangle of the same. I have been intrigued by the possibility of using polystyrene insulation board of various thicknesses and cutting "boards" like if I were using lumber. Of course the benchwork would be screwed together and the legs would be gusseted on all sides. I have never seen any articles about this possibility. Anyone have any info on this or is this a bad idea? I am looking for reasonable strength and light weight. I will not have a lot of heavy scenery at all.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

The lumber yards I buy from cannot compete with Home Depot and Lowes. And if you walk into a HD or Lowes you would not know there was a lumber shortage. Personally I think the "Lumber shortage" is akin to the "Oil shortage" of the '70s.....BS.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Madman said:


> The lumber yards I buy from cannot compete with Home Depot and Lowes. And if you walk into a HD or Lowes you would not know there was a lumber shortage. Personally I think the "Lumber shortage" is akin to the "Oil shortage" of the '70s.....BS.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong. Much of the lumber supply chain shut down and laid off workers at the beginning of the pandemic in anticipation of a business slowdown, which not only didn't occur, but the home improvement and home construction industries both took off (and are still red hot). Add to that that much of the remaining effort early on was devoted to supplying the paper industry to alleviate shortages of paper products and you have a one-two knockout punch.

The big box stores are in a much better position to secure futures contracts with sawmills than smaller lumber yards, and the financial strength to outbid them, thus they may have inventory when other places don't. I still buy from my local yard, because it's a lot closer to my house, and they have better quality to start with.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I bought most of my wood at a lumber yard, not a big box store. Number one, it was cheaper, and number two was, Lowes or HD don't stock what I used.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Steven Johnson said:


> I am modeling in N scale and will have a layout that is two 4 ft by 4 ft squares of 2 inch polystyrene insulation board connected by a 2 ft by 6-8 ft rectangle of the same. I have been intrigued by the possibility of using polystyrene insulation board of various thicknesses and cutting "boards" like if I were using lumber. Of course the benchwork would be screwed together and the legs would be gusseted on all sides. I have never seen any articles about this possibility. Anyone have any info on this or is this a bad idea? I am looking for reasonable strength and light weight. I will not have a lot of heavy scenery at all.


Steven;

I'm not sure which product you mean by "polystyrene insulation board." If you mean the hard blue, pink, or green extruded foam insulation board, yes, that has been used for many layouts, though primarily as a top for the table, either with, or without, plywood under it.
I don't know of any instance of it being "cut into boards" though that is certainly possible to do. 
The other type of foam insulation board is the white "bead board" commonly called by the tradename "Styrofoam." This has also been used as a scenery base material on a few train layouts, though its use is discouraged in model railroading due to lack of strength, and the incredibly high levels of mess generated when cutting it.

I'm also unsure of what you mean by having your two 4' x 4' squares "connected" by a 2' x 6'-8' rectangle of the "same" (presumably polystyrene board) 
Do you intend to cut a connecting, 'C'- shaped, beam & two legs, assembly to support each side of the table, or simply to use a lower slab of foam to attach the two upper 4' squares to each other. This latter would make a total foam thickness of 4" which will work, but is much thicker than normal.

Foam, of either type, won't hold screws on its own. As I suggested, (in my response that you quoted) it would be possible to screw into plastic expanding anchors set, (and preferably hot glued) into the hard (blue, pink, or green) extruded foam. The resulting screw base would still be a bit on the weak side, and I wouldn't recommend it for structurally critical joints, or joints that would be assembled & disassembled often.
As for the white Styrofoam, it is so weak that I doubt even expanding anchors would stay in it well enough to be worth using them. The anchors would just tear their way out of the Styrofoam, probably when the screws were first driven into them.

I'm also unsure of what you mean by "the legs would be gusseted on all sides," or even what you intended to use for legs. Do you intend to make the legs from the cut foam "boards" you mentioned, or use conventional wooden legs?

On final point. If the entire "benchwork" (top, frame, legs, et al,) of your proposed layout were made of foam, it would indeed be very lightweight. Possibly too lightweight in fact.
An all-foam train table would only weigh a few pounds. It could all-to-easily be shifted drastically by any human contact, such as simply leaning over it to put a train on the track, or accidentally brushing any part of you, even lightly, against any part of it.
While I have often cautioned people against building massively too heavy benchwork, (like the all too common 3/4" plywood on a frame & legs made of 2 x 4s) it is possible to go too far toward the other end of the weight scale as well.

Now all my commentary here is based on my assumptions & outright guesses, of what you might be asking. There are probably misunderstandings on my part, so further explanation, or a diagram of your idea, would be a great help.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Steven;
> 
> I'm not sure which product you mean by "polystyrene insulation board." If you mean the hard blue, pink, or green extruded foam insulation board, yes, that has been used for many layouts, though primarily as a top for the table, either with, or without, plywood under it.
> I don't know of any instance of it being "cut into boards" though that is certainly possible to do.
> ...


Thanks for your considered reply. I plan to make frames of expanded poly styrene insulation board foam (yes, the kind with the Pink Panther) that are 4x4 (2) and 2x6-7 (1) with braces underneath from side to side and put the foam on the top. These three pieces will be connected to each other although all three will have legs at the four corners. I will gusset the legs at all the four corners for a little more rigidity. I am not sure how I am going to connect the three pieces however I have considered using nylon nuts and bolts with reasonably large washers on both side to spread the strain. Another aspect is the rear of the layout will be set on the false countertop of a French drain system in my basement and the legs on the rear of the benchwork will sit on top of the countertop. These legs will naturally be short so they won't wobble too much. I will secure that back side of the layout to the wall at the back of the countertop so it will not shift away from the wall. There will be space under the layout on the countertop so that I will have easy access for wiring, etc. A lot of this will be trial and error and I am building a small 2.5 ft by 5 ft layout to try things out first. Changes will be made as I move along. As for people bumping into it, I doubt the I will have very many visitors but I think I will likely need to firm up the legs with pieces of PVC drain pipe glued to the inside. The legs will be L-shaped and braced. I know that this is uncharted territory but I just hate the idea of working with wood. It's heavy and can be warped. My trackwork will be on one level with layers of foam used to allow for elevation of scenery. I plan to lay my Kato Unitrack on HO scale cork roadbed to give it a little more elevation and will just scrape out some drainage ditches from the foam on the sides of the track. One thing that I have done before, is that I use different radii of Unitrack curved track on my curves so as to provide some easement into the curves to make it less toy-like, e.g., starting into the curve with 718 mm and working in with 481 or 381 mm and then doing the same thing backwards as I ease out of the curve back to the straight. I have been working out different combinations of curve radii and find that the Unitrack's unique geometry (+33 mm) makes this relatively easy to do. Some people will think I am crazy but I know that when I did HO I used to lay flex track short of the line-up for the straight and then ease the curve into the straight. As always, we do what is pleasing to us and let the other guys do what pleases them. I will have two throttles but the track for each will be completely separated from the other as one is merely an excursion train that might just be running more or less continuously while I operate the smaller short line. Keeping the wiring simple!! Just BUS lines and feeders. Move switches manually. Use the 0-5-0 digital switcher to move cars around if necessary! Thanks for your input!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Steven Johnson said:


> Thanks for your considered reply. I plan to make frames of expanded poly styrene insulation board foam (yes, the kind with the Pink Panther) that are 4x4 (2) and 2x6-7 (1) with braces underneath from side to side and put the foam on the top. These three pieces will be connected to each other although all three will have legs at the four corners. I will gusset the legs at all the four corners for a little more rigidity. I am not sure how I am going to connect the three pieces however I have considered using nylon nuts and bolts with reasonably large washers on both side to spread the strain. Another aspect is the rear of the layout will be set on the false countertop of a French drain system in my basement and the legs on the rear of the benchwork will sit on top of the countertop. These legs will naturally be short so they won't wobble too much. I will secure that back side of the layout to the wall at the back of the countertop so it will not shift away from the wall. There will be space under the layout on the countertop so that I will have easy access for wiring, etc. A lot of this will be trial and error and I am building a small 2.5 ft by 5 ft layout to try things out first. Changes will be made as I move along. As for people bumping into it, I doubt the I will have very many visitors but I think I will likely need to firm up the legs with pieces of PVC drain pipe glued to the inside. The legs will be L-shaped and braced. I know that this is uncharted territory but I just hate the idea of working with wood. It's heavy and can be warped. My trackwork will be on one level with layers of foam used to allow for elevation of scenery. I plan to lay my Kato Unitrack on HO scale cork roadbed to give it a little more elevation and will just scrape out some drainage ditches from the foam on the sides of the track. One thing that I have done before, is that I use different radii of Unitrack curved track on my curves so as to provide some easement into the curves to make it less toy-like, e.g., starting into the curve with 718 mm and working in with 481 or 381 mm and then doing the same thing backwards as I ease out of the curve back to the straight. I have been working out different combinations of curve radii and find that the Unitrack's unique geometry (+33 mm) makes this relatively easy to do. Some people will think I am crazy but I know that when I did HO I used to lay flex track short of the line-up for the straight and then ease the curve into the straight. As always, we do what is pleasing to us and let the other guys do what pleases them. I will have two throttles but the track for each will be completely separated from the other as one is merely an excursion train that might just be running more or less continuously while I operate the smaller short line. Keeping the wiring simple!! Just BUS lines and feeders. Move switches manually. Use the 0-5-0 digital switcher to move cars around if necessary! Thanks for your input!


Steven;

That sounds like a unique benchwork option. Please post photos of your layout when you can, I would like to see what you come up with.
My own N-scale layout is a bit of an odd design. It's a "Bookshelf Model Railroad" based on an old article in Model Railroader Magazine. The author made his railroad out of 3/4" plywood and pressed wood/particle board commercial shelving. Both materials are very heavy, and I wanted something much lighter. I ended up making the structural elements of my covered shelf layout from 1/4" Luan plywood filled with white bead board Styrofoam.
The top shelf of each 4' x 16" x 16" section is supported by three arches made of Luan filled with Styrofoam. The arches are joined by box girders made from the same 1/4" Luan filled with foam.
The first & second photos show the basic construction, and the last photo shows a finished section.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Steven -- I'm not sure I'm grasping the concept of what you're proposing. You seem at once concerned with making it super-light while over-building the heck out of it. Your layout needn't be designed to be a storm shelter. 

As Traction Fan says, the concept of using extruded polystyrene insulation boards for a layout surface has been a common method of layout construction for some time. It is rigid and strong... to a point. And to that end, why would you want to cut it into boards? Every joint is a potential weak spot in your layout. Leave the panels intact as much as possible. Extruded foam is not, however, fully self supporting, nor is it structural. You will need a frame of SOMETHING to support it. And there's a reason why the construction industry has been framing buildings with wood for centuries. Wooden L-girders or T-girders (a 1x3 and a 1x2 glued and screwed together with the grain perpendicular in the shape described) are light and very resistant to warping. 2x2 legs are more than adequate. A layout of this nature does not require any massive fasteners to hold it together. A couple of 3/8" carriage bolts with 1" washers will do fine. 

The warping problem won't be very significant with L- or T-girder construction, but to be sure, you can simply seal it with a couple of coats of cheap house paint and a couple coats of polyurethane. Or use an oil-based deck stain. The fact that you have a French drain suggests that your area is not as dry as it might be. In addition to being a potential warping issue for any lumber used in the area, excess humidity in the area is also going to cause problems for your track, your locomotives and your electronics, so getting humidity under control is going to be important, no matter what. If you're really worried about warping, you can use stainless steel framing or aluminum channel -- more expensive, but won't warp.


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Steven -- I'm not sure I'm grasping the concept of what you're proposing. You seem at once concerned with making it super-light while over-building the heck out of it. Your layout needn't be designed to be a storm shelter.
> 
> As Traction Fan says, the concept of using extruded polystyrene insulation boards for a layout surface has been a common method of layout construction for some time. It is rigid and strong... to a point. And to that end, why would you want to cut it into boards? Every joint is a potential weak spot in your layout. Leave the panels intact as much as possible. Extruded foam is not, however, fully self supporting, nor is it structural. You will need a frame of SOMETHING to support it. And there's a reason why the construction industry has been framing buildings with wood for centuries. Wooden L-girders or T-girders (a 1x3 and a 1x2 glued and screwed together with the grain perpendicular in the shape described) are light and very resistant to warping. 2x2 legs are more than adequate. A layout of this nature does not require any massive fasteners to hold it together. A couple of 3/8" carriage bolts with 1" washers will do fine.
> 
> The warping problem won't be very significant with L- or T-girder construction, but to be sure, you can simply seal it with a couple of coats of cheap house paint and a couple coats of polyurethane. Or use an oil-based deck stain. The fact that you have a French drain suggests that your area is not as dry as it might be. In addition to being a potential warping issue for any lumber used in the area, excess humidity in the area is also going to cause problems for your track, your locomotives and your electronics, so getting humidity under control is going to be important, no matter what. If you're really worried about warping, you can use stainless steel framing or aluminum channel -- more expensive, but won't warp.


I don't have a wet basement anymore since we did the French drain. Most of the basement is finished except for the utility areas with the furnaces, water softener, and the water heater. I don't think it will be overbuilt as I have tried to describe the benchwork. Even wooden benchwork will have some cross bracing as well as some gussetting. I just don't have the finesse to work with wood anymore although I have done so when I was younger( L-girder with risers) but it all was relatively massive and difficult to move without decent wheels. I am just trying something different. I think it will work but the is why I am building something small to start off with to see how it will be. I do think that I will strengthen the legs with PVC pipe glued behind the L-shaped legs. It will not be anything super large in diameter. Just large enough for some rigidity. I will not be adoing anything outlandish. The foam will just take the place of the wooden boards for an underlying framework. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Look at how foam and plaster cloth is used now for scenery. When my younger brother and I were teenagers we made our scenery with window screen, cardboard supports, and plaster slathered on. What a mess! What fun getting stuck with loose ends of window screen! I will try to post some photos when I get things rolling.


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Steven;
> 
> That sounds like a unique benchwork option. Please post photos of your layout when you can, I would like to see what you come up with.
> My own N-scale layout is a bit of an odd design. It's a "Bookshelf Model Railroad" based on an old article in Model Railroader Magazine. The author made his railroad out of 3/4" plywood and pressed wood/particle board commercial shelving. Both materials are very heavy, and I wanted something much lighter. I ended up making the structural elements of my covered shelf layout from 1/4" Luan plywood filled with white bead board Styrofoam.
> ...


Gorgeous!! When we were teenagers, my younger brother and I but a 5X9 over and under layout from the Atlas book 6 Model Railroads You Can Build. We built the Granite Gorge and Northern. It was hung from the basement rafters with chains. That was one way to level it - just rotate the eyebolts screwed into the wood a little here and there. I will post some photos when I get well into construction if it all works out.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Steven Johnson said:


> Thanks for your considered reply. I plan to make frames of expanded poly styrene insulation board foam (yes, the kind with the Pink Panther) that are 4x4 (2) and 2x6-7 (1) with braces underneath from side to side and put the foam on the top. These three pieces will be connected to each other although all three will have legs at the four corners. I will gusset the legs at all the four corners for a little more rigidity. I am not sure how I am going to connect the three pieces however I have considered using nylon nuts and bolts with reasonably large washers on both side to spread the strain. Another aspect is the rear of the layout will be set on the false countertop of a French drain system in my basement and the legs on the rear of the benchwork will sit on top of the countertop. These legs will naturally be short so they won't wobble too much. I will secure that back side of the layout to the wall at the back of the countertop so it will not shift away from the wall. There will be space under the layout on the countertop so that I will have easy access for wiring, etc. A lot of this will be trial and error and I am building a small 2.5 ft by 5 ft layout to try things out first. Changes will be made as I move along. As for people bumping into it, I doubt the I will have very many visitors but I think I will likely need to firm up the legs with pieces of PVC drain pipe glued to the inside. The legs will be L-shaped and braced. I know that this is uncharted territory but I just hate the idea of working with wood. It's heavy and can be warped. My trackwork will be on one level with layers of foam used to allow for elevation of scenery. I plan to lay my Kato Unitrack on HO scale cork roadbed to give it a little more elevation and will just scrape out some drainage ditches from the foam on the sides of the track. One thing that I have done before, is that I use different radii of Unitrack curved track on my curves so as to provide some easement into the curves to make it less toy-like, e.g., starting into the curve with 718 mm and working in with 481 or 381 mm and then doing the same thing backwards as I ease out of the curve back to the straight. I have been working out different combinations of curve radii and find that the Unitrack's unique geometry (+33 mm) makes this relatively easy to do. Some people will think I am crazy but I know that when I did HO I used to lay flex track short of the line-up for the straight and then ease the curve into the straight. As always, we do what is pleasing to us and let the other guys do what pleases them. I will have two throttles but the track for each will be completely separated from the other as one is merely an excursion train that might just be running more or less continuously while I operate the smaller short line. Keeping the wiring simple!! Just BUS lines and feeders. Move switches manually. Use the 0-5-0 digital switcher to move cars around if necessary! Thanks for your input!


I can’t imagine how this construction method will be easier than working with wood. You have to cut framing size “boards” out of the foam, ( how do you plan on making them square, even and consistent?), fasten them together somehow and then reinforce the legs with PVC pipe. 
Please let us know how this turns out.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're wrong. Much of the lumber supply chain shut down and laid off workers at the beginning of the pandemic in anticipation of a business slowdown, which not only didn't occur, but the home improvement and home construction industries both took off (and are still red hot). Add to that that much of the remaining effort early on was devoted to supplying the paper industry to alleviate shortages of paper products and you have a one-two knockout punch.
> 
> The big box stores are in a much better position to secure futures contracts with sawmills than smaller lumber yards, and the financial strength to outbid them, thus they may have inventory when other places don't. I still buy from my local yard, because it's a lot closer to my house, and they have better quality to start with.



The mills are the ones who are making the money. So they had to shut down last year as most of the country did. But why does that give them the green light to charge three times what lumber cost just before the pandemic ?


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## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Less products made, increased demand. Price goes up.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

cfurnari said:


> Less products made, increased demand. Price goes up.



Ah, Capitalism = The greed system !


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

prrfan said:


> I can’t imagine how this construction method will be easier than working with wood. You have to cut framing size “boards” out of the foam, ( how do you plan on making them square, even and consistent?), fasten them together somehow and then reinforce the legs with PVC pipe.
> Please let us know how this turns out.


Just like you always do, I will clamp a square onto the foam and cut with a very sharp saw (Not sure what type of saw I will use but it will be very sharp to cut cleanly through the foam.) along the square. I am in no hurry so I am not going to rip the foam for framing. I only need to cut 12 pieces for the framing and none will be longer than 4 feet. I will be going slowly and deliberately. No hurry so I will keep things square. Have you tried cutting a straight line with a hand saw or a circular saw without some type of alignment method like clamping a board to run the saw along? Plus, I want to keep all my fingers. This is definitely an experiment that may change as I go along. It is no different than ripping framing boards out of a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood and will be easier I think! Naturally I will use something like Loctite adhesive to hold the framing together. The legs will be L-shaped and will have a piece of PVC pipe glued to the inside corner of the L. Going to travel into uncharted territory!!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

On post #19 you asked if building the entire layout including framing with rigid foam was a bad idea. I think it’s a bad idea because it won’t hold up to any significant stress. If someone was to lean on it accidently, it would fail.

That said, I’ve used plenty of foam for scenery. When I want a straight line, I use a table saw, but that can get scarry fast. If you don’t keep the foam cut perfectly in line with the blade, the blade will grab the foam and throw it across the workshop. I would use a sabre saw and a straight edge for you 4’ long cuts. I use Loctite power grab along with hot melt glue to join pieces. The hot melt is good for instant bond and the Loctite is good for a semi-permanent bond. I would also put backer pieces at any joints.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Madman said:


> Ah, Capitalism = The greed system !


Yes, exactly. Whatever price the market will bear. They wouldn't be able to charge so much for it if there weren't a ton of people clamoring to get it. That's how capitalism works. What system of economics would you prefer?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lehigh74 said:


> That said, I’ve used plenty of foam for scenery. When I want a straight line, I use a table saw, but that can get scarry fast. If you don’t keep the foam cut perfectly in line with the blade, the blade will grab the foam and throw it across the workshop.


VERY TRUE! Learned this lesson the hard way, but at least the foam missed me!


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Yes, exactly. Whatever price the market will bear. They wouldn't be able to charge so much for it if there weren't a ton of people clamoring to get it. That's how capitalism works. What system of economics would you prefer?


Capitalism, as we know it, is suited to human nature. If I was selling widgets for fifty cents last year, and this year the demand went up, why should the price rise ? I'm making a profit at the original price. If I now charge a dollar fifty, I am making a killing. It's about doing the right thing by sharing the wealth. Something too many people have forgotten how to do.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Steven Johnson said:


> Just like you always do, I will clamp a square onto the foam and cut with a very sharp saw (Not sure what type of saw I will use but it will be very sharp to cut cleanly through the foam.) along the square. I am in no hurry so I am not going to rip the foam for framing. I only need to cut 12 pieces for the framing and none will be longer than 4 feet. I will be going slowly and deliberately. No hurry so I will keep things square. Have you tried cutting a straight line with a hand saw or a circular saw without some type of alignment method like clamping a board to run the saw along? Plus, I want to keep all my fingers. This is definitely an experiment that may change as I go along. It is no different than ripping framing boards out of a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood and will be easier I think! Naturally I will use something like Loctite adhesive to hold the framing together. The legs will be L-shaped and will have a piece of PVC pipe glued to the inside corner of the L. Going to travel into uncharted territory!!


Steven;

It is possible to rip foam on a table saw but, as others have pointed out, kickback is far more likely with foam.
My bandsaw is the power saw of choice for cutting foam, no kickback. 😊 If you use your framing square, and a magic marker, to lay out a cutting line, a bandsaw can cut a good straight line if your carful.

I also have a recommendation for a handsaw. Harbor freight tools www.harborfreight.com sells a " Portland 12" flush cut saw" (item # 564) that is the sharpest handsaw I've ever used. It looks like a large version of an X-acto hobby saw, but without the stiffening channel along the back of the blade. This lets it cut to any depth. It has razor sharp teeth and will cut very quickly right through just about anything. (including fingers, so be very carful.) I have used this saw to cut lumber and foam, and it works great.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

traction fan said:


> My bandsaw is the power saw of choice for cutting foam, no kickback. 😊


The only problem is the throat size of the bandsaw. Unless you have a honkin' big bandsaw, it's somewhat limiting as to what cuts you can do with it.


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## dboone (Mar 22, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The only problem is the throat size of the bandsaw. Unless you have a honkin' big bandsaw, it's somewhat limiting as to what cuts you can do with it.


I wouldn't think a 2" throat for a band saw would be unusually large.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Madman said:


> Capitalism, as we know it, is suited to human nature. If I was selling widgets for fifty cents last year, and this year the demand went up, why should the price rise ? I'm making a profit at the original price. If I now charge a dollar fifty, I am making a killing. It's about doing the right thing by sharing the wealth. Something too many people have forgotten how to do.


So in today’s real estate market in many areas, houses are going for way over the asking price. If you were selling your home and got an offer for $20,000 over asking, would you not take it?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

prrfan said:


> So in today’s real estate market in many areas, houses are going for way over the asking price. If you were selling your home and got an offer for $20,000 over asking, would you not take it?


Yes. It's not (necessarily) that the sellers are demanding high prices, but that the BUYERS are willing to pay more because they have an unfilled demand. Then they have to turn around and sell at a higher price to cover their costs. From the buyers perspective, you either DON'T pay the higher price, don't get the product, and therefore get no revenue because you have nothing to sell, or you pay what you have to in order to get the product, and pass the cost on to your customers, creating higher prices. So, Madman, you are saying that these companies should altruistically suck up the higher prices, hold their own price, and lose money? That's a great way to go out of business.

But at any point in the chain, buyer can break the cycle by NOT paying the higher price. Eventually, more and more sellers start getting stuck with unsold inventory and start offering lower prices, hoping to entice buyers back to the market, and prices will stabilize at a sustainable level. But that doesn't happen as long as demand is high enough st the higher price to pretty much sell everything can be produced.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Uhh... I'm talking about the distance to the side that limits your width of cut.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

traction fan said:


> Steven;
> 
> It is possible to rip foam on a table saw but, as others have pointed out, kickback is far more likely with foam.
> My bandsaw is the power saw of choice for cutting foam, no kickback. 😊 If you use your framing square, and a magic marker, to lay out a cutting line, a bandsaw can cut a good straight line if your carful.
> ...


 I "replied" to my own response simply to get this new file into this ongoing benchwork thread. This file, which I just finished today, contains benchwork info and options that may be useful for newer modelers. Like my other files, there won't be much in this one that other old timers don't already know. So, "to whom it may concern."

Traction Fan


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

prrfan said:


> So in today’s real estate market in many areas, houses are going for way over the asking price. If you were selling your home and got an offer for $20,000 over asking, would you not take it?


You're talking about a different animal. Of course a homeowner wouldn't pass up an offer over his or her asking price. But the homeowner is not totally to blame here. The realtor stands to make a larger fee if the house sells for more. If we were to sell our house, we would look at who is buying it, not just how much we could get. We recently sold my late uncle's house and turned down offers from those who wanted it strictly for investment purposes, even though their offers were in line with the final buyer. A young couple bought the house and is in the process of updating it. Not to resell it but to have a life there.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Yes. It's not (necessarily) that the sellers are demanding high prices, but that the BUYERS are willing to pay more because they have an unfilled demand. Then they have to turn around and sell at a higher price to cover their costs. From the buyers perspective, you either DON'T pay the higher price, don't get the product, and therefore get no revenue because you have nothing to sell, or you pay what you have to in order to get the product, and pass the cost on to your customers, creating higher prices. So, Madman, you are saying that these companies should altruistically suck up the higher prices, hold their own price, and lose money? That's a great way to go out of business.
> 
> But at any point in the chain, buyer can break the cycle by NOT paying the higher price. Eventually, more and more sellers start getting stuck with unsold inventory and start offering lower prices, hoping to entice buyers back to the market, and prices will stabilize at a sustainable level. But that doesn't happen as long as demand is high enough st the higher price to pretty much sell everything can be produced.


I fear politics could creep into this conversation. Let me say this. There are many people out there who will pay the higher price. But there are many more who simply cannot afford to. The inequity of income in our country is so pronounced, that we in the middle class and those less fortunate are being priced to extinction.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Madman said:


> You're talking about a different animal.


No, it isn’t really. It’s an extreme example of the age old economic principle of supply and demand. It’s just that the buyers are taking an already high price and pushing it higher because there’s no supply in the market.

It’s no different than having to pay $75.00 for a sheet of plywood, which is exactly what it was selling for last week at Home Depot. And the house down the street from me just sold for $225,000 where last year it would have been 155.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Madman said:


> I fear politics could creep into this conversation. Let me say this. There are many people out there who will pay the higher price. But there are many more who simply cannot afford to. The inequity of income in our country is so pronounced, that we in the middle class and those less fortunate are being priced to extinction.


No one is talking about fair: raw, naked capitalism is undeniably brutal. What we're still working from is your original assertion: 



Madman said:


> The lumber yards I buy from cannot compete with Home Depot and Lowes. And if you walk into a HD or Lowes you would not know there was a lumber shortage. Personally I think the "Lumber shortage" is akin to the "Oil shortage" of the '70s.....BS.


You seem to have come to an understanding that your original statement was false, without actually acknowledging it. You're right -- how to (or even whether to) blunt the worst effects of Capitalism and a market economy is a political topic, and I'll leave it at that. So long as we understand that what is happening right now is a normal condition of our economic system, and not some fake crisis created just to fleece people who can't afford it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the politics of pricing in the free market is WAY outside the topics of this forum, let's make a left turn and get back on topic please.


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## Steven Johnson (Feb 23, 2021)

Lehigh74 said:


> On post #19 you asked if building the entire layout including framing with rigid foam was a bad idea. I think it’s a bad idea because it won’t hold up to any significant stress. If someone was to lean on it accidently, it would fail.
> 
> That said, I’ve used plenty of foam for scenery. When I want a straight line, I use a table saw, but that can get scarry fast. If you don’t keep the foam cut perfectly in line with the blade, the blade will grab the foam and throw it across the workshop. I would use a sabre saw and a straight edge for you 4’ long cuts. I use Loctite power grab along with hot melt glue to join pieces. The hot melt is good for instant bond and the Loctite is good for a semi-permanent bond. I would also put backer pieces at any joints.


Thanks for your insight! This is a process in transition. I will learn on the go. It will be braced and strengthened at appropriate areas. As I have indicated I am building a small layout to test things first. I do not think it is going to fail the way that I will brace the legs with PVC and use angles of foam at the corners of the frame. I am going to use 2 inch thick foam in all the pieces. The rear of the frame will be secured to the wall behind it. Some other responders think that I am overbuilding. I'd rather do that than to find out lesser thickness is insufficient. I am sure that other methods of benchwork, e.g. L-girder, took some time to perfect.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> No one is talking about fair: raw, naked capitalism is undeniably brutal. What we're still working from is your original assertion:
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have come to an understanding that your original statement was false, without actually acknowledging it. You're right -- how to (or even whether to) blunt the worst effects of Capitalism and a market economy is a political topic, and I'll leave it at that. So long as we understand that what is happening right now is a normal condition of our economic system, and not some fake crisis created just to fleece people who can't afford it.



Roosevelt initiated the start of the middle class. We were doing quite well until about 1980. In the 50s, fair trade laws were still in effect. Piece by piece, the safeguards the middle class enjoyed post-war, have been systematically stripped away.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Madman said:


> I fear politics could creep into this conversation.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Enjoy your layout.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Let's agree to disagree. As profane said, lets enjoy our layouts.


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