# 0-8-0 Mother Hubbard- The Master Plan



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

I've always loved Civil War-era locomotives, and have decided to build an 0-8-0 Mother Hubbard. As I understand it Mother Hubbards are different from Cambelbacks in that the cab sits atop the boiler instead of astride it. Most people apparently don't differentiate because you can find tons of pics of pre-war Mother Hubbards by searching "0-8-0 Camel" in Google. Here's a pic of what I'm really looking for:


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

My first thought was that two Americans would provide enough drivers for one 0-8-0 Camel and low and behold, I found them on Epay. Turns out though, that the camel's drivers are ~42" and the Americans are 60". That is too much a difference to ignore, and besides both Americans are repairable, so I went back to scratch.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Round two, I found a Rivarossi 0-8-0 switcher on Epay. This looked more promising and I bought it. Turns out this is another motor-in-tender engine, and the motor is missing from this one. (there's another just like it on Epay right now). Anyway, the drivers are 42" so that's a good thing, but they are spaced further apart than the prototype, about 5' total but I'm thinking rather than building a new frame and new drive rods I'll just accept it. For the boiler I found some General parts I can modify.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

I thought the local train museum had a mother hubbard but when I went to see it I couldn't find it. I did see a couple other cool engines though. Also, they had one car with woodbeam trucks, nothing says Civil war like 'em.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

So, random thoughts:
1. There is no room for a motor in the back. There will be room for one on top the gear box, I think a small can motor can be mounted there and geared down to the box. The motor should fit in the boiler which is about 1/2" in diameter.
2. The valve gears have to go. Too bad 'cause I really like them. I have a Mikado Camelback I might try to install them on some point in the future if I can replace the rivets.
3. The steam chest jumps out as too big. I bought a smaller one, not sure how it will fit but I figure that's easier than modifying the bigger one and I can move it back at the same time. 
4. The firebox is actually very low on these engines. The fireman apparently stands physically between the tender and engine, a bad place to be if there's a pile-up I would think. I'm thinking about mounting him on the draw bar.
5. Speaking of the firebox, I couldn't find any pictures of the cab or back of one of these engines (well, one but it wasn't helpful). Apparently not the photogenic part. The steam dome can be seen in the pic inside the cab, I figure I can use the existing mount and make a similar piece.
6. Some of the pictures on google show a somewhat complicated window for these engines, I think that will be better than just leaving them open.
7. Might replace the stack with an onion-dome stack like I've seen on other M.H.s. It would make the General front end less identifiable.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Last, I took advantage of my powerpoint skills to mosaic together the engine. It looks pretty good if I can make it work. I stuck on the cowcatcher from the general, I might look for a shorter one. Last comment, I've got two projects in front of this one so don't expect much progress.


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Looks like a lot of work/fun.
If you are striving for perfection, here is a thought.
In the first picture it looks to me like the two center drivers are blind flange.
They are also evenly spaced.
Your model has the first set of drivers spaced out further.

I think the models meant for European countries would be another option as they seem to have evenly spaced drivers, but very tall wheel flanges.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Dennis461 said:


> Looks like a lot of work/fun.
> If you are striving for perfection, here is a thought.
> In the first picture it looks to me like the two center drivers are blind flange.
> They are also evenly spaced.
> ...


Great info! I jumped onto epay and here it is. The other 0-8-0 goes on the rip track and this one gets gutted for the MH. I dummied it out too. Tell me, this shoe in the middle of the wheels, does that mean the drivers aren't insulated on one side? I'll try to get a bit done every week but the passenger car behind it gets first attention until it's finished.


BTW the local train museum did used to have a MH, not sure where it went.


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Nice!


----------



## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Pretty interesting scratch-building! Just wonder if I am seeing it right. The front end is on the left side, not right, correct? I am asking because of the original picture showed the coupler on right side and nothing on the left, which makes sense during that period, they don't have the coupler on the front end at all and that the cowcatcher was commonly put on the front end of these old stream locomotives.


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelback_locomotive#/media/File:Centipede_4-8-0.jpg


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Front is to the right. The firebox is behind all the bolts and it is narrow, not wide like coal-fired camel backs. The doors are very low in the back and I think the chute is to drop logs in further up. It isn’t present on all MH engines. This pick is missing the tender. Oops, the link above makes it more clear. I think I’all need to find a book...


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Murv2 said:


> Front is to the right. The firebox is behind all the bolts and it is narrow, not wide like coal-fired camel backs. The doors are very low in the back and I think the chute is to drop logs in further up. It isn’t present on all MH engines. This pick is missing the tender. Oops, the link above makes it more clear. I think I’all need to find a book...


Just visit the museum...
http://www.railarchive.net/centprog/r_winans.htm
http://www.borail.org/davis-camel.aspx


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Dennis461 said:


> Just visit the museum...
> http://www.railarchive.net/centprog/r_winans.htm
> http://www.borail.org/davis-camel.aspx


They had one here in st louis but I went to see it and it was gone. Couldn't find a docent who knew where it went.


----------



## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

OK, a little more history. The B&O Winans Camels came in short, medium, and long furnace (firebox). The one copied here looks to be a long furnace. The fireman fired from the tender deck. The chute was used to apply coal to the front of the firebox since the fireman could not easily pitch the coal that far from the back. Also, when these locos were in general service they used link and pin couplings. The knuckle coupler did not come into wide use until the late 1800's. The pilot had a long bar with a loop at the end that lay down on the cowcatcher when not in use.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Thanks for that. This picture shows the connection between the engine and tender and it shows a lower and upper level. I'm probably going to extrapolate what the upper level looked like, the fireman was probably a busy beaver...


----------



## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

I'm not sure if the Centipede ever got built but I believe the 235 did. Note that the locos don't have "cowcatchers", but pilot beams, and the beams do have link and pin draft gear boxes as do the rear beams of the tenders. Another detail note - that device mounted just behind the rear driver is a mechanical water pump. In this case it seems to be tied to the valve chest. Steam-driven lifting injectors weren't invented until maybe 10 years after these engines were built. Most of the mechanical injectors that I've seen were connected to the crosshead. Not sure what was used to operate these particular examples.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Took the top off the engine and holy cow, is that complicated. All the electrical stuff has to go, but the first challenge is insulating one side of the drivers. It looks like they are made out of one piece of metal, so I think I'm going to have to open the hole around the axle and put a plastic cap in it, then insulate the drive rod bolts as well. I couldn't find 42" drivers online or I'd just replace them. This is becoming more and more challenging.


----------



## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

That would be hard to find one with hole for connecting rods.

I found one but they are for diesel locomotives - Athearn 42" driver wheels

Other than that, if anyone try to find one, it would be ~0.483" or ~12.26 mm in diamater. That is just under half inch...

If one couldn't find this, maybe do metal work on lathe? I know that I can make one but no lathe machine here... :dunno:


----------



## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

I think that I found one but they are only 4 wheels. It seem to be a little under half inch in diameter as there is ruler for the comparison.

0-4-0 Mantua drive wheels

If it is true 17th of 32nd inch, it would be roughly equal to 43.5" driver wheels but who make them in that size? Maybe that is it? You can contact the seller and ask him/her for the exact measurement, using digital caliper.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Murv2,

What you are planning to build is called a Camel. A loco with the cab on top of the boiler.

A Camelback, Mother Hubbard or Centercab has the cab astride the boiler.


----------



## Scotie (Sep 27, 2013)

Those Mantua or Tyco drivers were 50". I had accumulated some intending to build a LIRR 2-8-0 camelback. They should be easy to find, unfortunately most have the large pre-RP-25 flanges. They are also of course insulated for two rail.


----------



## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

Frankly, I would go looking for another Euorpean loco that is two-rail DC. You indicated that there was a shoe between the drivers which tells me that this is a Marklin model which is AC powered. Most everyone else non-Marklin uses standard DC two-rail power. You will still need to contend with the large NEM flanges, but at least there is a chance of finding small drivers. I can't think of any domestic steam models that had drivers around 42". There are 36" drivers out there in HOn3 but that's probably too small. Many moons ago Kemtron made 45" drivers in HOn3 (and maybe in standard gauge) but good luck finding any these days.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

bluenavigator said:


> I think that I found one but they are only 4 wheels. It seem to be a little under half inch in diameter as there is ruler for the comparison.
> 
> 0-4-0 Mantua drive wheels
> 
> If it is true 17th of 32nd inch, it would be roughly equal to 43.5" driver wheels but who make them in that size? Maybe that is it? You can contact the seller and ask him/her for the exact measurement, using digital caliper.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HO-Scale...820505?hash=item3b0fb88199:g:wWwAAOSwC19bFBe0

This would give me the four sets I need, are they the same size?


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Murv2 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HO-Scale...820505?hash=item3b0fb88199:g:wWwAAOSwC19bFBe0
> 
> This would give me the four sets I need, are they the same size?


Someone could CNC them for you lickety split. Mill and/or lathe.


----------



## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Murv2 said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HO-Scale...820505?hash=item3b0fb88199:g:wWwAAOSwC19bFBe0
> 
> This would give me the four sets I need, are they the same size?


I had checked this one and noticed that I have same one as top one, showing the bottom, showing white gear on the front axle. I measured the diameter and it turned out to be 0.566" which translates to 49.242" wheel. Hummm... pretty close.. 

However, I think that I found one... AHM Hercules which is 0-6-0 but I noticed that their wheels seem to be a little smaller than usual. Maybe this is it... Often I found that little steam locomotives tend to have only two axles. I rarely come across three axles on little steam locomotives, which make sense that they are smaller. 

AHM Hercules 0-6-0


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

OK, trying to find the right drivers by randomly purchasing locomotives on Ebay will just fill up my rip track. I have occasional access to a lathe and a plan, I'm going to try to insulate these drivers. This project goes on hold until after vacation. Thanks guys for the great ideas, this is still in the realm of possible.


----------



## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

Loco drivers are typically insulated at the rim, i.e., between the wheel casting and the tire. The insulating material is typically a very thin strip of micarta or similar material, which means if you intend to make your own drivers that you will need to compensate for that thickness to accommodate the press fit between the tire and wheel center.


----------



## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Murv2 said:


> OK, trying to find the right drivers by randomly purchasing locomotives on Ebay will just fill up my rip track. I have occasional access to a lathe and a plan, I'm going to try to insulate these drivers. This project goes on hold until after vacation. Thanks guys for the great ideas, this is still in the realm of possible.


Myself, I would go with lathe route. It is just me. Otherwise, I am pretty confident that 0-6-0 Hercules is the one with the correct one or the closet one to 42" drivers.

It turns out that it is not the only one. AHM make other models with the same chassis/wheels.

Other AHM 0-6-0

Other than that, I feel ya for filling up more stuff into the rip track. I have lot of engines laying around but in boxes as organized as I had put the specific models into groups. I have three boxes of F7/9 engines. I am able to identify which are which. Some of them are missing something there and there and here. This weekend, I am going to check diesel engines, which are more variety. I have to be careful to identify which is the correct one then put them together in correct boxes. Also, I have some steam engines as well. Not that many as i would like to have. 

On eBay, I usually look for junk/repair groups to buy because it is cheaper to get many in one group than get each individually. Right now, I think that I have about 60-70 engines. My wife think that I am crazy to get too many of them.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

I just started railroading again eight months ago. So far i’ve Built 4 freight cars, 2 cabooses and almost 5 passenger cars, and have 7 running engines. And no buildings. I love steam engines but if I start buying more projects thr RR will look like a football field forever. After this last passenger car I’m starting on a water tower.


----------



## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

I completely understand! It would get more harder to juggle between several projects. Been there! Right now, I am trying to finish working on my 3D printer. It is getting there. At same time, I am doing inspections on these diesel engines.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

OK, I've gutted the electrics and tested the gears by rolling the whole thing across the table and it worked OK. The wheels are solid pieces, no separate flange so I'm going to have to insulate the axle hole and driver bolt hole, a pain but not impossible. Also, the bearings are pressed into holes in the frame, not with a separate bottom plate. My gear puller won't work on that so I took the grunt technique of wedging a screwdriver between the wheel and frame and gently levering it out. I don't think I screwed anything up there. I'm hoping to use the motor rotor as an axle for the worm gear, little more disassembly for that. Slow progress but taking it apart is the easy part...


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Finally got the project back online. I have an issue though, the drivers are further apart on the donor engine than the camel. I can either make the camel 1/2" longer overall or let the drivers extend further into the firebox. Opinions?


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Murv2 said:


> Finally got the project back online. I have an issue though, the drivers are further apart on the donor engine than the camel. I can either make the camel 1/2" longer overall or let the drivers extend further into the firebox. Opinions?


Cheat it. Get the drivers as far apart as looks OK, and then the rest comes out the rear.


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Finally got the motor and gearbox. The photo shows the roughtogether: Brass rod is the boiler, motor fits in if you pinch the tube just a touch. I have to butcher the frame now then grind in a groove where the bottom of the gearbox goes, and of course I bought a gearbox with the axle too small, will have to fix that. Progress is both frustrating and slow...


----------

