# Power and load question?



## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Dose the size of the track 80 X 140 inch oval affect transformer performance?
I will be using a CW80 with a NYC set with a total of 14 cars.
It says it will pull 10 to 12 cars on the box.
Is there a way to get a little more out of it,motor swap or larger transformer?
Adding a second motor to the engine?
There must be a mortification kit.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

more motors would result in more load on the transformer, if more power is needed electrically, a bigger transformer would be needed, 
The bigger the layout the more terminal connections to the track are needed though, that would help keep the train from slowing down when it is farther from the transformer connection.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

jreid said:


> more motors would result in more load on the transformer, if more power is needed electrically, a bigger transformer would be needed,
> The bigger the layout the more terminal connections to the track are needed though, that would help keep the train from slowing down when it is farther from the transformer connection.



You can run more terminal connections from the transformer to the track?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You should have multiple power drops, and I'd also be thinking of a larger transformer. A CW-80 will be somewhat marginal if you're running any accessories in addition to the train. I doubt a couple of extra cars will add much to the load.

Remember, typical switches consume more than you might think, if they have a bulb in the switch and the controller, you'd be surprised, it adds up. Any other accessories that require power will also take some of the capacity. If any of these cars are lighted with incandescent lights, they can burn an amazing amount of power!

Power drops are simply running a bus wire around, perhaps under the table, and tapping off every few feet for a track connection. I'd use either #12 or #14 for the bus wire, then you can use short pieces of #18 to connect to the track. For tubular O-scale track, I typically solder them to the track. The track connectors will usually be pretty poor conductors, especially for long runs. One way of improving that is to solder runs together, the connection issues are with the pins, not the track itself.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Have you guys ever used Deoxit to improve connections at track pins?
Us tube audio guys have used it for years with great success and you don't need to solder. The electrical connection can be greatly improved with just a little squirt.
I think two connections should do it for a large oval track and only the engine and caboose are lighted but it dose do smoke and RR sounds .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Haven't tried it, but you never know.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Haven't tried it, but you never know.


It cleans connections and leaves a film of silver oxide partials on the surfice area.

http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.I/id.64/.f

http://www.amazon.com/DeOxit-Cleaning-Solution-Spray-spray/dp/B0002BBV4G


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've seen it before, just never tried it.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I have a CW80 and if I have a string of four passenger cars the extra load is quite noticeable. However for a lot of people that run about the equivalent of what comes in a starter set it will do OK, some sets come with a 40 watt and those get outgrown quite quickly.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The CW-80 will normally run a single engine as long as you don't have a lot of other stuff. I favor heavier metal like the ZW or KW transformers. I also picked up a Lionel Type V 150 watt transformer for $12 on eBay, cleaned it up with a new power cord, and it's as good as new. Power doesn't have to be expensive.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

I have 14 freight cars, I just picked up some extra track wires so I can power 3 pieces of track from the transformer.
I will treat all the pins,and connections with Deoxit.The track is a large oval 80 inches X 140 inches so ohms resistance could go pretty high.

when ohms go up the wattage rating of the transformer will drop, an 80 watt could become a 40 watt pretty fast.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've powered a 4x8 with two loops with five feeds total, I used the KW and it ran two trains, four switches, and several accessories, barrel loader, log loader, milk car, with no problem.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Dose the KW have horn,whistle and direction buttons?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The KW has two direction buttons, and a horn/whistle lever that can be toggled either way to sound either of the whistles on the two channels.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

No bell button though


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Dose Lionel make a new monster transformer?
With loads of buttons,switches,levers,flashing lights and meters and powerful enough to power a small city?


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

The ZW-L has all of the goodies but has a msrp of $799
6-37921


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

This looks nice.
Any one use one?
http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mrc/mrcah601.htm


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the ZW-L isn't really available yet. OTOH, I have the ZW controller with 180W bricks that has similar capability, just has more "bulk". 

As far as horn/bell buttons, you can do an add-on one on your own, pretty easy to do. Here's the thread where I show the one I built: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8249


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

goraman said:


> This looks nice.
> Any one use one?
> http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mrc/mrcah601.htm


You can also do a bit of shopping on eBay and score the original PW Lionel ZW for around $100-125, I've picked up several there.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

I have done some reading on the CW80 and the word from reviewers is they are junk.
So I will most likely have to replace it when it craps.
Seems there is no breaker,when over driven it folds back the current and the green light flashes.If you don't stop and remove cars or what ever the fuse will blow and you need a special triangle shaped screw driver to replace it.
So far no one has said they like them.
I will upgrade but most likely it won't be a Lionel as the actual transformers don't seem to be built very well and I don't want to buy something I have to rewire and add switches to.
Sad how meany people have had major problems with them.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

There's a very nice old KW for sale in this thread:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8341

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The Lionel PW transformers before the electronic models are actually very robust. I have a number of them, they'll last forever.

As far as the extra function for bells, I run command/control, so that's pretty much a non-issue for me. I build the whistle/bell controller for occasional use, and also as an educational project to see how well it works.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> There's a very nice old KW for sale in this thread:
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8341
> 
> TJ


I didn't see one in there.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Now this is pretty cool,check out the mod to this ZW.
Dose some one on the forum know how to do this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-ZW-R...198217?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item415ce22309


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> There's a very nice old KW for sale in this thread:
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8341
> 
> TJ





goraman said:


> I didn't see one in there.


KW offered for $75 ... starting at Post #15 ... here's a direct link ... scroll down ... you'll see it ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=86449&postcount=15

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

goraman said:


> Now this is pretty cool,check out the mod to this ZW.
> Dose some one on the forum know how to do this?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-ZW-R...198217?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item415ce22309


It would be very easy to do the mod, you just substitute some 15A diodes for the Selenium rectifiers and then add polarity reversing switches. By far the hardest part is fabricating the extra little box to hold the switches and diodes. The cost would be minimal for components.

I'd probably be tempted to build the box from some nice hardwood and paint it black.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can do mods to the ZW rather easily. Just use some DPDT switches and reverse the polarity of the diodes.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You just need room for the switches, might be a little tight in the stock case.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Thanks, I PMed him.
Can the KW be moded up too?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes, you can mod a KW. You only need one switch since the whistle controller is shared between the two controls.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can mod any of the transformers with whistle controls as long as you can find room for the switch. I would use a miniature toggle switch if room was tight.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

servoguy said:


> You can mod any of the transformers with whistle controls as long as you can find room for the switch. I would use a miniature toggle switch if room was tight.


Well, you want a switch that can carry the full current that would be drawn from the transformer output to the track at the time of the whistle/bell actuation, so that has to be a consideration.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Actually, you can probably use an undersize switch for two reasons: 1. you will not be switching the switch under load, and 2. the duty cycle is very low. If the switch is not switched under load, and it doesn't get hot, it should be OK. However, a larger switch would be the better choice.

BTW, the easy to wire the switch is to use two diodes which are installed with opposite polarities and switch between the diodes.
BB


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It really depends on what maximum power you want to draw. The wild card here is what accessories are being powered from track voltage, if any. If they're not in the mix, I can't imagine more than a few amps flowing through the diodes and switch for a single train. I use 6A diodes in the 1033 transformers, and I used 10A diodes in the one ZW that I replaced the rectifiers. One of the small CK switches will handle 6A, and they should fit in most transformers.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The diode is only on half the time, so a 6 amp diode can be used in a circuit drawing 12 amps, assuming the current density in the junction is not too high. Diodes are very cheap, so I would go with a diode that is plenty large enough.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

goraman said:


> Thanks, I PMed him.
> Can the KW be moded up too?



He listed a ZW 275 watt now.:thumbsup:


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

big ed said:


> He listed a ZW 275 watt now.:thumbsup:


Saw that,I was wondering what year it is?
It dose seem expensive when you can get a new one for $258.79 no shipping and it has 4 meters rev,bell and whistle,275 watts with a 5 year warranty.:thumbsup:


http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mrc/mrcah601.htm


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, for a nice ZW, his price is decent, but I personally like to buy them a bit cheaper and then recondition them. Typically, they don't need much, I have extra carbon rollers and pins, and I also have spray paint for the base if they get a bit rusty.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm just looking at the long hall here, I could easily spend $300.00 by the time I get a horn mod and reconditioning.
When $258.79 will get a 275 RMS not PEP transformer with all the bells and whistles + warranty! NO SHIPPING all the way to Ca.!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Works for me, remember those are probably electronic controls. You either love them or hate them, depending on whether they cause you grief.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Works for me, remember those are probably electronic controls. You either love them or hate them, depending on whether they cause you grief.


Electronic controls ?
Aren't they veritable capacitors or potentiometers?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Not capacitors. There are pots at the end of the control chain, but they are coupled to semiconductor switching, usually power Triacs or power FET devices. Electronic controls are far less robust than the old transformers that really had nothing that a surge or sudden short could easily take out.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

I am not a big fan of FET trannys, they work well in car audio head amps as long as you go to great pains to element static electricity at the aerial.

With FETS it is never a matter of if but when they will fail.
Personally, I like things that are hand wired,lead soldered and vacuum tube driven.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

goraman said:


> I am not a big fan of FET trannys, they work well in car audio head amps as long as you go to great pains to element static electricity at the aerial.
> 
> With FETS it is never a matter of if but when they will fail.
> Personally, I like things that are hand wired,lead soldered and vacuum tube driven.


I think fitting the vacuum tubes with sufficient power handling capability into your locomotive would be an issue.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't know about that, John. You could put a 6336 into two tank cars following the loco, and put the rest of the vacuum tubes in the tender. You might have to raise the track voltage to 50 volts or more to make it all work. 

On second thought, we used the 6336s for the output stage in 300 volt power supplies, and there were 5 of them for a 2.5 amp output, so it might take a few more tank cars. It would be possible to use an audio transformer to step down the voltage from the 6336 output, but then the B+ for the 6336 would need to be up around 300 volts. The transformer would be big and heavy and might constitute a problem. 

BTW, I may hold the record for the number of vacuum tubes in one place. I had 10 large analog computers back in the '70s in the lab that I managed. There was a total of 17,000 vacuum tubes. We had developed methods of maintaining the tubes that did not require disassembly of the computers, and keeping all of the tubes running was no problem.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure you hold the record, when I worked for IBM in the 60's, Curtis Publishing in Phila had a bunch of 704 computers that they were nursing into the solid state age, there were a LOT of vacuum tubes in that room. The room was an entire city block long and the A/C was a sight to behold! 

FWIW, the couple of midnight runs I made to that place, I actually was able to fix them. Just walk down the rows of racks and look for a tube that wasn't lit.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is an interesting tidbit. In the 14 years I worked with the analog computers, I don't remember ever having a filament burning out. The tube gm would die before the filaments burned out. Also, we did not leave the filaments on when we were not using the machines. The tube life depends only on how long the filaments are lit, not on how long the tube has the B+ turned on. The analog computer operational amplifiers were all chopper stabilized, so it took only a few seconds for the amplifiers to stabilize. The chopper kept the amplifiers from drifting as the tube parameters drifted due to temperature. 

BB


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Goraman, have you considered adding a couple of small, dirt-cheap transformers? If you're running a permanent layout, you likely have room underneath to screw-mount some cheap trannies from ebay. You can power your main line with the big tranny and use a little 50 watt unit for all your lights, a second one for all your switches, and so on. There's no need to try to run it all of the big box unless you just want to. Why bother tapping into your track voltage at all?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Here is an interesting tidbit. In the 14 years I worked with the analog computers, I don't remember ever having a filament burning out. The tube gm would die before the filaments burned out. Also, we did not leave the filaments on when we were not using the machines.
> BB


Digital computers were on 24/7, and many of the tubes were not active all the time, so the common failure mode was a dead filament in the tube. There were other failures obviously, but fortunately, I never had to track those down. I was really a IBM-360 guy, going back three generations to old tube computers was just when nobody was available.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Reckers said:


> Goraman, have you considered adding a couple of small, dirt-cheap transformers? If you're running a permanent layout, you likely have room underneath to screw-mount some cheap trannies from ebay. You can power your main line with the big tranny and use a little 50 watt unit for all your lights, a second one for all your switches, and so on. There's no need to try to run it all of the big box unless you just want to. Why bother tapping into your track voltage at all?


We can't do a permanent lay out just yet,mabey some day.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John,
Back in the '60s, I did a little programming on an IBM 7090 which was the solid state version of the 709. I did both assembly and FORTRAN II. The '90 was about the size and speed of the first PCs. $millions for a machine that was replaced by a machine costing about $3000.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I worked on that computer and later I spent a lot of time working with the Univac 1108. I wrote a simulation for a complete business computer in FORTRAN (the only portable language at the time).

I wrote in assembly for many years on the IBM-360, that was the most powerful assembly language that I've seen, the trend nowadays is to simpler machines that run a whole lot faster. The 360 was an enduring architecture, it lives on today in the IBM System Z.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Wow! alot of early computer guys on here, got any 6414 dual triodes laying around?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I got rid of all of my vacuum tubes years ago when the equipment that used them became obsolete. I have 4 tubes left: a 6H6 diode that is in an ancient VOM, and 3 miniature metal tubes that are in an ancient Mosley analog plotter. But that is it. No ancient technology audio amplifiers.

I do have a copy of HeathKit's first solid state stereo amp and the matching tuner. I would like to sell both of them.

BB


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I have some 12AX7's here, and if that's not enough, I have some REALLY old tubes in several 1930's antique radios. 

Here's a fully working tube radio, a Philco from the 30's.










For the well dressed person heading to the beach in 1950, they'd take along a portable radio. This one weighs in at about 5 pounds with the batteries and also works if I add batteries, I've tested it with bench supplies.



















*Tubes... Yep, we got 'em!*


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

I like the Philco table top, Wish I still had my old Zenith black dial.
There pretty rare now and cost the U.S. mint in good condition.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I also have a couple of others, an old Atwater Kent, and a desk radio.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I am surprised that your portable radio has conventional hot filament tubes in it. Some of them had cold cathode tubes which use a lot less power.

John, I have a GE tube manual if you are interested. I would be willing to part with for little or nothing if you could use it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I actually have several tube manuals, I keep them around for the antique radios. As far as the filaments, many radios of that era apparently used them. They're special battery tubes with very low filament current, AAMOF you can't see the filaments light in most of the tubes.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

And when the tubes burn out, it's time to call the repairman. *L* I'd been looking for a box with compartments to store train parts---ran across this beauty over the weekend.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Reckers said:


> And when the tubes burn out, it's time to call the repairman. *L* I'd been looking for a box with compartments to store train parts---ran across this beauty over the weekend.


Oh U lucky lucky *******,Lucky ******* RU!

I thought I was lucky finding a pair of NIB RCA 1959 Black plate 12AT7's last week for $5.00 but you got me beat by a mile.
I haven't seen one of those boxes in 20 frickin years!


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

Dam, hear I sit with a collection of mullards,Westinghouse,RCA,GE,TAD,Phillips,ect.. 
And this guy is using a 1955- 1960's RCA repairman's tube box! to put train parts in!
Life makes no sense some times.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Reck -- fabulous find! Is that a dark/redish wood we're seeing, or a wood-like vinyl covering? It's go great character, either way.

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

goraman said:


> Oh U lucky lucky *******,Lucky ******* RU!
> 
> I thought I was lucky finding a pair of NIB RCA 1959 Black plate 12AT7's last week for $5.00 but you got me beat by a mile.
> I haven't seen one of those boxes in 20 frickin years!


*BOL!!!!* It was sheer luck. My girlfriend wanted me to take her shopping, and I have a couple of favorite junque shops I like to visit. You'll be happy to know that box cost just under $17, is rock solid, clean, and still had the end-tabs for a couple of tube boxes sitting in the bottom!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Teej, the box is wood, very solid and a bit heavy; the thing is painted rather than stained. I also found an art-deco clock/timer made between 1946 and 1950. It's a GE home Timer called the Traveller; it was made between 1946 and 1950. I'll try to add a pic this evening, when I get home. It has a ring of flat plates or pins projecting around the face that you pull out to use as a timer. Apparently, "Traveller" was derived from it's purpose: back then, hotels and houses had tube radios, but no clock-radios. This lil puppy has an outlet on the back to plug in the radio: you set the timer and it turns on the radio to wake you, an exciting innovation!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

goraman said:


> Dam, hear I sit with a collection of mullards,Westinghouse,RCA,GE,TAD,Phillips,ect..
> And this guy is using a 1955- 1960's RCA repairman's tube box! to put train parts in!
> Life makes no sense some times.


It kinda matches my train decor. My train workbench is a rock-maple, 5' butcher's table that I've had for about 40 years. I was an 18-year-old kid working in a Winn-Dixie grocery in Louisville: the Feds decided those huge old wooden butcher's blocks and tables had to be replaced with plastic and stainless steel. They gave it to me for free; I brought it home tied to the roof of an old '58 Buick.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

It was a fantastic score,you did good.
I had a chance to get one 20 years ago and blew it.
It looked exactly like yours,another ham radio guy bought it and all the tubes for $60.00.
At the time $60.00 was pricey and tubes where pretty cheap.

Even sader is in the late 70's I had to go to the dump with my Dad and the truck next to us was dumping several free standing tube testers with cases and cases of tubes!
Seems every store in town was removing them,no one was selling vacuum tubes and RCA stopped production in 78.

I still think they sound better than sand chips and although I no longer run ham radio gear my Manley Labs stereo amp and head phone amp uses tubes.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Thank you. My best score was a gift from my girlfriend---she's originally from PA. She was planning a trip home and was talking about getting up in the family's attic to gather some of her belongings to bring back (we live together). As an afterthought, she said, "My family has stuff in the attic that no one wants and they never get around to getting rid of it. Would you have any use for an old Victrola? Or a couple of old wooden trunks?"


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had a GE tube carrier just like that, traded it to a friend at one point, I got a really nice Colt 1903 pocket pistol.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I've got an old screw-barrel pistol at home---I've never gotten up the courage to fire it, though. *L*


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Screw-barrel? I don't even know what it is!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Reck -- at $17, I have to say again that that old tube box is a fabulous find. It's oozing with fun character!

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Screw-barrel? I don't even know what it is!


You can see one here:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=995

As the text suggests, it's a very slim pistol that has no trigger guard---the percussion, one-shot version of the midnight special. Ideal for the pocket, boot, or anyplace a man might want to conceal a weapon. The barrel will unscrew from the receiver to make it even easier to conceal in a smaller space.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Reck -- at $17, I have to say again that that old tube box is a fabulous find. It's oozing with fun character!
> 
> TJ


Thank you, Teej. It's a real eye-pleaser and a perfect box for keeping your parts sorted out. I also have my cubes: two heavy wooden cubes, about 3o" in each direction; they were drawer cabinets for index-card sized storage. They're like the card catalogs libraries used to have, only with larger cards. Get rid of the cards and stack the cubes and you have a nice storage cabinet!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Another thing that works well for parts storage is a flat file. These were used to keep drawings in the past. They also make good tool boxes.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I remember those--great-looking cabinets!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Reckers said:


> You can see one here:
> 
> http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=995
> 
> As the text suggests, it's a very slim pistol that has no trigger guard---the percussion, one-shot version of the midnight special. Ideal for the pocket, boot, or anyplace a man might want to conceal a weapon. The barrel will unscrew from the receiver to make it even easier to conceal in a smaller space.


Well, I'm not sure I'd want to have my hand on that when it fired either. I do have a few pistols in my collection that will never be fired, at least by me.  OTOH, everything in the collection is in firing condition, or it's not a gun!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Reck -- fabulous find! Is that a dark/redish wood we're seeing, or a wood-like vinyl covering? It's go great character, either way.
> 
> TJ


Teej, I checked more closely and it's neither. It's a wooden case covered with a glued-on fabric that has then been painted.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Reckers said:


> It's a wooden case covered with a glued-on fabric that has then been painted.


That's similar to the way many old steamer trunks (travel chests) were made.

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Exactly. I have one in my living room for a coffee table: it was in my girfriend's attic in PA. She brought it back and I refinished it! Here is the household timer, aka "Traveller", I mentioned earlier:


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

A real tube amp.
2x 12AT7
2X 6414
8x EL84
In Triode 20 watts X2
In Ultra Linear 40 watts X2


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

please delete this post.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

That is a nice looking piece. I am still not sure what the fascination is with tube amplifiers.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

servoguy said:


> That is a nice looking piece. I am still not sure what the fascination is with tube amplifiers.


THE WAY THEY SOUND!
I took that picture the first week I owned it,the rear transformer is hand sighed
by Evana Manley to me,it was hand picked by her the owner and designer.

The stock tubes where fast swapped to Mullards and TADS, not to mention some very rare Westinghouse and post war RCA's.

Tube amps have a more expansive sound, pleasant sounding is the best way to describe it.
And the best part of it all is tube rolling, there are very slight differences in presentation with different brands of tubes.

Tubes are far warmer sounding than sand amps also much more engaging.

Now if you like solid state super power,I spent a ton of buck having this monster amp upgraded with Black gate caps, new transistors,U.S.relays,carbon resisters and 4 15000uf power supply caps that looked like tall boy beer cans along with the tyirodal transformer the size of a coffee can. 355 watts RMS per channel before clipping on an 8 ohm load with .001% harmonic distortion!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, tube amps do present distortion better.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Tube amps have a reputation for harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion due to the non-linearities in the tubes. A good tube amplifier will use a lot of feedback to reduce this distortion. Tube amplifiers also have a problem with low frequency response as this is limited by the size of the cathode bypass capacitors. In 1927, Harold Black invented the feedback amplifier and forever changed electronics. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Stephen_Black

The feedback drastically reduced the distortion in the amplifier which made long distance telephony possible. 

Harold Black's work was followed by the work of Nyquist, Bode, Evans, and Nichols. It opened up the entire field of servomechanisms. 

BB


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

servoguy said:


> Tube amps have a reputation for harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion due to the non-linearities in the tubes. A good tube amplifier will use a lot of feedback to reduce this distortion. Tube amplifiers also have a problem with low frequency response as this is limited by the size of the cathode bypass capacitors. In 1927, Harold Black invented the feedback amplifier and forever changed electronics.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Stephen_Black
> 
> ...


Some of what you said is correct,tubes are more linear by nature.
Transistors need more global or neg. feed back to remain linear my tube amps feed back is 5! my big spec2 was over 1,800!
My tube amp has no trouble going to 20hz. to 20khz.
but tube distortion is normally in the mid range/slightly bloated.
Also tubes don't form a speaker killing square wave,they clip softly.

I have owned alot of amps both tube and solid state and some things that don't look as good on paper can sound fantastic in reality.
Specs just don't tell you what it sounds like.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

A little reading 4 yual.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/manley2/stingray.html (my amp is the improved version of this one,IE switchable to triode,and sub output also some improved shielding.

Also much detail is lost in global feed back and miles of path,a tube amp has a much shorter electronic path than a feedback amp.
A clean vinyl rig with a high end phono stage will show detail lost in even the best fet amps.
Yes, tubes tend to bloat vocals a bit but in a pleasant way,ever hear At Last by Etta James or Will you still love me tomarrow by Amy Winehouse on a tube amp! It stands the hair up on your arms! Passion! I have had and heard the best solid state amps Macs, Marantz ,Pass Labs ect... 
None of them can touch a good tube amp.
http://www.manley.com/index.php


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

One thing I notice about your suggested reading material is that it is totally lacking any engineering test data. No Bode plots. No distortion measurements. Just words which are not part of my engineering vocabulary. I am not criticizing the amplifier or what the guy wrote about it, just somewhat puzzled by the lack of any engineering data. I have seen this over and over again in the audio field. The last time I saw any frequency response curves for a speaker was when I bought an AR-2ax from Acoustic Research. There is a lot more distortion in any speaker than there is in most amplifiers and any speaker measurements will depend on the room or anechoic chamber where the speaker was tested, and whether or not the test microphone is in the near field or far field of the speakers along with the frequency response of the microphone and its "antenna pattern."

In any event, in the final analysis, it depends on what your ear likes, and what your budget will allow.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

servoguy said:


> One thing I notice about your suggested reading material is that it is totally lacking any engineering test data. No Bode plots. No distortion measurements. Just words which are not part of my engineering vocabulary. I am not criticizing the amplifier or what the guy wrote about it, just somewhat puzzled by the lack of any engineering data. I have seen this over and over again in the audio field. The last time I saw any frequency response curves for a speaker was when I bought an AR-2ax from Acoustic Research. There is a lot more distortion in any speaker than there is in most amplifiers and any speaker measurements will depend on the room or anechoic chamber where the speaker was tested, and whether or not the test microphone is in the near field or far field of the speakers along with the frequency response of the microphone and its "antenna pattern."
> 
> In any event, in the final analysis, it depends on what your ear likes, and what your budget will allow.


AR2's you can't be all bad I grew up on KLH modle 6 and Henry Kloss is a voicing hero of mine.
There is loads of data on the stingray.

Start here: http://www.manley.com/mst.php

In the end you got it right,it depends on what the ear likes.
I like stuff like the AR3 KLH modle 6 Sound Lab panels ,EL84's ,2A3's and 300B's. I just gave up my first class vinyl rig and well over 1,000 records for a music server and a stand alone DAC. Simply to make room for the Nursery. Then free up the living room of a wall filled with records and another filled with CD's. Family came 1st.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't use CDs anymore. I play all of my music from my laptop. 

I looked up the harmonic distortion for your stingray v. a typical amplifier from Crown. Your stingray has 15 times more harmonic distortion than the Crown amp. That is the problem with vacuum tube amplifiers. The intermodulation distortion for the stingray is not specified. For the Crown it is 0.1%. Very small. Harmonic distortion is like overtones in an organ pipe. Intermodulation distortion is sums and differences of frequencies and it not harmonically related. It is very irritating to the ear. It may be the harmonic distortion that your ear likes.

BB


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

I have had an old recapped Crown amp,You would be surprised at how out of spec it can become after 10 years with out major service.
If it's 20 years old a complete recap is over due.

I still prefer tubes with all there 2nd and 3rd order harmonics lost to solid state.
P.S. live interments produce harmonic distortions.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

A few years ago, I had a crown amp apart to determine what had happened to it. The output transistors had all failed. I don't know how old the amp was, but it was incredibly complex. An amplifier doesn't need to be complex.

I don't have any other experience with Crown amps or any other high end amps. I build a lot of servos and they work for 20+ years without any adjustment. 

I think what your ear like is the harmonic distortion which produces the 2nd and 3rd harmonics. This is not faithful reproduction of the music, but if your ear likes it, go for it. I think this is what most people like about tube amplifiers. You can achieve this with solid state amplifier using a slightly non-linear preamp.

BB


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

interments - definition of interments by the Free Online Dictionary ...
www.thefreedictionary.com/interments - CachedThe act or ritual of interring or burying. interment [ɪnˈtɜːmənt]. n. burial, esp with ceremonial rites. ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms ...

I am not sure what live interments are.


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## goraman (Aug 21, 2011)

servoguy said:


> interments - definition of interments by the Free Online Dictionary ...
> www.thefreedictionary.com/interments - CachedThe act or ritual of interring or burying. interment [ɪnˈtɜːmənt]. n. burial, esp with ceremonial rites. ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms ...
> 
> I am not sure what live interments are.


Instruments:laugh:


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