# Ready to actually start my layout!!!



## gunrunnerjohn

I know Ed will be happy, I'm actually done with the home improvements and I'm seriously planning the benchwork to start my layout. The overall size is 8 x 13, and it's in a corner with only the front side exposed. This will require a couple of dropdowns to reach everything.

I'm looking for some guidance here, all I've ever done previously is flat layouts, this is considerably more complicated! 

I have this idea of having two levels with a ramp to the lower level for a hidden staging yard. Of course, I've already been talking about the helix that will go up to the ceiling track. I also would like at least one elevated track, I'm thinking of having a trolley running around too.

I'm looking for specific ideas on how to construct the benchwork so that the lower level doesn't have to be that low, both to minimize the reducing the space under the layout and also not having too much of a grade to contend with. I'm thinking the staging yard will have maybe half a dozen tracks the long way under the table, and they've be toward the front.

I'm thinking of having a couple of mainlines around the whole layout, and probably a spur off one of them that leads to the ramp down to the staging yard. I'm assuming there will have to be another ramp up from the staging yard to join the main layout.

In the middle, or actually offset a bit to one side, I'm planning on having the helix. This will be roughly 4 x 6 in total size, and I'm planning on having a dropdown inside to allow me to deal with any problems on the helix. I'll have to take the yard layer into consideration when I place the dropdown inside the helix.

My thoughts now are I might actually build the helix and do some testing of trains on it before committing to the specific design. My current thinking is using O31 at the ends of the oval with 40" of straight track on each side. That's the inner track, the outer track will have to have some filler straights on the ends and the sides to space it away from the inner track. That basic shape was represented in my other thread here: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7010

Here's the shape of the helix so far...


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## novice

Congrats on starting your new layout - wish I could help, but I'll watch and cheer on the side lines


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## gunrunnerjohn

Comeon man, I need all the help I can get here!


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## Xnats

Wow John  If I read everything correct, you will have a table layout, on the table layout will be the helix that runs up/down from the ceiling tracks? I'm thinking building the helix first would set you table height! 
Really looking forward to seeing this one :laugh: :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'd like to see it as well! 

I'm considering building the ceiling track first, that will allow me to build the table, then size the helix to fit into the gap. Also, the ceiling track should be the easiest to do, and I'm itching to get started with something.

I figure the ceiling track will have two tracks, and I'm thinking of having a couple of sidings to park a couple of trains as well. Along the straight parts, it shouldn't take much width to add a siding.

What the hell, think big, right?


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## tjcruiser

Sounds ambitious and creative!

In terms of the helix and the main table height ... I'm sure you understand that there's a direct correlation between the height of the ceiling section, the grade of the helix, and the resulting total helix vertical drop. That'll dictate the table height. In other words, as you spiral down the helix, you want to end up with track section pointing in the intended direction when you arrive at table height.

Pretty basic, but relavant.

TJ


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## novice

tjcruiser said:


> In other words, as you spiral down the helix, you want to end up with track section pointing in the intended direction when you arrive at table height.
> 
> Pretty basic, but relavant.
> 
> TJ


Maybe so, but I wouldn't have thought about that until it was too late LOL.

Good point.


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## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> Sounds ambitious and creative!
> 
> In terms of the helix and the main table height ... I'm sure you understand that there's a direct correlation between the height of the ceiling section, the grade of the helix, and the resulting total helix vertical drop. That'll dictate the table height. In other words, as you spiral down the helix, you want to end up with track section pointing in the intended direction when you arrive at table height.
> 
> Pretty basic, but relavant.
> 
> TJ


TJ,

This is one reason I'm posting all of this, I'd like to sort this stuff out BEFORE i build. All comments gratefully received, and no suggestion is too basic. Remember, I'm a veteran of simple flat layouts, this is breaking new ground for me!

My plan currently is to build the ceiling track and get some trains running around, just to make it look like I'm getting somewhere, and I'm tired of having nowhere to run the trains! Next, I'll design the helix and let the exact height it needs to be dictate the height of the table top. 

Right now, I'm planning on the helix being near the middle of the 8 x 13 layout. I'm sure I'll need a dropdown on each side of the helix to reach things in the back, so that seems the logical location. Looking at the diagram of the top of the helix, I'm thinking the tracks will exit out the middle of the bottom side for connection to the layout. It's looking like the helix will be roughly 3 1/2 feet tall to get to the ceiling track, so I'm planning on seven loops. The outside helix track will have about a 3% grade with that spacing, the inner one will be 4%. I'm thinking right around 36" for the top of the table, and the ceiling track will be at about 6' 7" or 6' 8" to allow 9" to the ceiling. I may want to drop that a couple of inches, the ceiling in that room is 7' 4". 

I'll probably plan on sending shorter trains up the inside loop, or use it to bring them down, no problem with train length coming down the hill, unless they push the engine off the tracks!


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## Big Ed

IT IS ABOUT TIME.


It made me dizzy reading about all your plans.:laugh:

I will follow and try to help where I can, but I guess you can say I build flat layouts too.

Up, down, around, underneath, along side of, all that with drop down or raise out panels, good luck building all that John. 









Do you think it may be too much?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Ed, you gotta' dream big when you dream, otherwise it's like real life! 

As I said, I think I'll start by running the train around the ceiling and get something running, just to make me feel good. I was down there today taking ceiling tiles out to see where I'll have to suspend things.


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ed, you gotta' dream big when you dream, otherwise it's like real life!
> 
> As I said, I think I'll start by running the train around the ceiling and get something running, just to make me feel good. I was down there today taking ceiling tiles out to see where I'll have to suspend things.



I will try to give some helpful criticism as you go along.

One thing to think about is pull up panels. instead of drop down.

You can make say a big Lake piece, or a farm, buildings,or something you got that is going on the layout and instead of dropping down make it were you can just pick it up. One in the middle might work.
Well it might work for me as I have a long reach.

Just do it!

You can always redo it like the rest of us do.:laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn

big ed said:


> I will try to give some helpful criticism as you go along.
> 
> One thing to think about is pull up panels. instead of drop down.
> 
> You can make say a big Lake piece, or a farm, buildings,or something you got that is going on the layout and instead of dropping down make it were you can just pick it up. One in the middle might work.
> Well it might work for me as I have a long reach.
> 
> Just do it!
> 
> You can always redo it like the rest of us do.:laugh:


I've mulled over the difference between pull up and drop down, but since they'll be out of my reach from the edge, drop down seemed like the way to go. They'll be at least 4 feet from the edge, leaning that far over and trying to pick something as large as the panel with perhaps some scenery on it seems like a load.

Remember, I'm going to have the mountain that is the helix that will be somewhere near the middle, so there's going to have to be some sort of access on either side of it to get to the back of the layout.


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## gunrunnerjohn

OK, I've decided to start with the ceiling track. What do people use to suspend a ceiling track when it's not next to the wall? Looking for some easy method of suspending it. The room has a dropped ceiling with fiberglass tiles, and I'm not adverse to simply hacking a hole in them were necessary. Obviously, something will be suspended from the joists, just wondering about the actual construction. I'd like to only do this once?

While we're on the topic, what would you use for a base material? I'm thinking of 1/2" plywood, but I can be convinced if there's a better option. I'm also considering using the thin rubber mat used for DIY wood floors to deaden the sound of the trains running over the track as a base. I'll probably run the wiring for the power drops between the two tracks, but I could also run it in the ceiling and drop it down, haven't figured that part out yet.


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> OK, I've decided to start with the ceiling track. What do people use to suspend a ceiling track when it's not next to the wall? Looking for some easy method of suspending it. The room has a dropped ceiling with fiberglass tiles, and I'm not adverse to simply hacking a hole in them were necessary. Obviously, something will be suspended from the joists, just wondering about the actual construction. I'd like to only do this once?
> 
> While we're on the topic, what would you use for a base material? I'm thinking of 1/2" plywood, but I can be convinced if there's a better option. I'm also considering using the thin rubber mat used for DIY wood floors to deaden the sound of the trains running over the track as a base. I'll probably run the wiring for the power drops between the two tracks, but I could also run it in the ceiling and drop it down, haven't figured that part out yet.



I can't help you on this one.

This guy did this, they are sort of protected from falls with his,

http://ceilingtrainkit.com/Installation.html


I found this but didn't read it. As I was speed looking it over I saw the word plywood,

http://www.ehow.com/how_6695978_make-train-track-suspended-ceiling.html


Check out what this guy did it looks a little strange,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt367afSbwg


another from the same guy,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7hiH1JAByc




I wonder if you could incorporate the track system they use for overhead track lighting some how?


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## novice

If you have a drop ceiling, I would think metal construction brackets attached to the beams and the track base would give a pretty solid foundation? I just used some hurricane clips for my shed, and they were very sturdy.

Just a thought - trying to offer anything I can


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I like some of those, but the one with the clear tubes is WAY over the top for what I'm willing to spend and do! 

The how-to would be more useful if they actually provided pictures.

I'm thinking that maybe the idea of a single pole coming down and having a "T" under the plywood base would be a nice way to support it. I can do whatever I like as far as a railing to catch falling trains with that kind of rig. 

*novice*, what are hurricane clips? Wait, I found them. I think I want something a little more "finished" hanging down from the ceiling.


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## Xnats

Have you thought about just running along the wall. A floating shelf would be pretty cool and have a neat finish. If extra support is needed you could really deck it out with some crown modeling.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I am running it along the wall for the most part, but there are a couple of places where I can't hug the wall. I'm going simple on the wall, shelf brackets to support it. I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the suspended areas.


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## novice

gunrunnerjohn said:


> *novice*, what are hurricane clips? Wait, I found them. I think I want something a little more "finished" hanging down from the ceiling.


You can paint or finish the clips - rustoleum makes a real good textured paint/spray - I used it on one of my outside fixtures. Looks really good.

But, I understand you may want something a bit more "furniture" like.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I actually got some inspiration from the stuff Ed posted. It's way over the top for what I'll do, but I think I can take some ideas from it. I'm thinking of a pipe or perhaps a stained dowel coming down and suspending the roadway from the center, then have tracks on either side. The stuff along the walls will be using standard shelf brackets. I just have to see about holding the roadway steady with a single support. One issue is that I don't want the supports to take up much vertical space, since the ceiling is only 7' 4" in that room now. I only have about 9" to play with, so I'm trying to minimize the amount of vertical space used by support and keep as much headroom for the trains and access to the track once it's in place.


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## tjcruiser

John, you might consider MDF rather than plywood for the shelf. It's dead-smooth and flat, and paints beautifully. I think the MDF underside would be much more presentable than plywood ... unless you're thinking of staining the wood?

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm going to take a trip down to Home Depot and look at solutions. I'll think about that, MDF may be a better choice. I want to see if I can figure out how to hang the open areas with a single center support, I think that would look pretty cool. One issue is how to join sections without uneven seams. I saw some ideas for a helix where they used overlapping layers, but I think that would be a bit thick, seems 1/2" is the thinnest you can get MDF locally. I find 1/8" and 1/4" mentioned on-line, so maybe a local lumberyard might have it.


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## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> One issue is how to join sections without uneven seams.



Consider biscuit joiners (via a biscuit cutter power tool) to join the seems. That'll line them up nicely. Usually used for glued / permananent installations, though.

Or ...

Perhaps a "pocket joint" with a jig like this. (Cheaper ones are available.) Basically, it uses a very-obliquely-oriented screw to pull to panels together. The nice thing is that the screw doesn't protured above the panel. You can position the pockets on the top "blind" side of the shelf.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21327&filter=pocket

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I already have a doweling jig, so I guess I could just use dowels to line up the sections. They'd probably have to be 3/4" thick to make sure I had enough "meat" to be strong. I could use small flat metal brace on the top along side the track to hold the sections together.

I looked at hanging ideas today, and I may consider a pipe dropping straight down and use a flange like this between the rails.










The only concern is if 3/4" MDF would be strong enough that I could hang it from four 3/4" screws every couple of feet. The MDF track base will be 12" wide, and of course it has to support a couple of trains at times. I've never actually used MDF, I normally use either standard lumber, plywood, or particle board. Obviously, particle board would not have the strength... I don't want the screws coming through the bottom, I'd like that to be smooth.

MDF comes in at about $29 a sheet, so this won't be a particularly cheap process, I'm looking at over 70' of dual track, and the curves will chew up additional material.


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## novice

I would think carriage bolts with washers would be better suited than screws?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, you're right. However, that will result in ugly bolts hanging down below the surface of the shelf, that's what I'm trying to avoid. If I used bolts, they'd be flat head bolts to keep them flush on top. If that flange has something sticking out of it, a train might snag it. The flange itself seems low enough to allow trains to miss it.


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## novice

Couldn't you counter sink and plug?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I can't countersink much in 3/4" MDF without creating the very issue we speak of, the thing falling on my head!  I'm not sure how thin I can cut the MDF before it's too weak for the task.

I'm going to have to measure a few of the locomotives and see what kind of clearance I have for the trucks when they swing wide on curves to see what they'll clear. I may have to put the bolts through from the bottom with a small countersink and trim them to size on the top.

There will be a thin roadbed, so that should help some.


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## novice

Just trying to offer suggestions, however useless they are 

Couldn't you attach a thin strip 3/4x3/4 under the baseboard of the overhead and run the bolt counter sunk into that? You could then paint/finish the whole thing and it would blend?

I'm looking for a picture of what I'm trying to describe.

Found this thread: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=1898

and this pic:









Found this site, maybe you can get some ideas here?: http://www.layoutsbysteve.com/prd.html
Just a thought.


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## T-Man

MDF is heavy. 1/2 plywood may be better .


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## gunrunnerjohn

novice said:


> Just trying to offer suggestions, however useless they are


Please don't take what I say as being displeased with any suggestions. I'm just talking about my thinking and desires and trying to balance it against the suggestions. All ideas gratefully received.


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## gunrunnerjohn

T-Man said:


> MDF is heavy. 1/2 plywood may be better .


You are probably right, I've been rethinking MDF due to the weight and other issues.

Hell, I thought it was going to be simple to hang the track, maybe not so simple...


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## gunrunnerjohn

novice said:


> Found this site, maybe you can get some ideas here?: http://www.layoutsbysteve.com/prd.html
> Just a thought.


_Starter package 8'x10' Oval's are just *$1,950.00*!# #Note: Prices are subject to change at anytime, taxes and shipping charges not included._

YIKES!  Mine would probably be around $5,000 to do the whole room! I think I need a cheaper solution.


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## novice

gunrunnerjohn said:


> _Starter package 8'x10' Oval's are just *$1,950.00*!# #Note: Prices are subject to change at anytime, taxes and shipping charges not included._
> 
> YIKES!  Mine would probably be around $5,000 to do the whole room! I think I need a cheaper solution.


Yeah, but I was thinking you could get some ideas from their stuff?


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## novice

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Please don't take what I say as being displeased with any suggestions. I'm just talking about my thinking and desires and trying to balance it against the suggestions. All ideas gratefully received.


No, No not at all - My skin is a bit thicker than that 

Just trying to help and give back after all you have done for me :thumbsup:


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## NIMT

GRJ,
Here is my 2 cent's worth.
I would use 7 ply plywood or 10ply Baltic Birch instead of trying to attach it to the ceiling use cradles to let it float on, that cuts down on the stress points that can fail you can also get a really clean look. You can use 1x2 poplar or maple for the cradle frame. Biscuit joiner is the only way to go to join the seams strait! Beats the snot out of dowels. I was a cabinet maker for years and I could draw one up for you to see if that helps! Heck I could even make the cradles and mail them for cheap enough.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I'd certainly like to see your idea. I'm confused about the base "floating", what about where the boards end? The base must be attached to the hangers some way, right? You must be joining those base sections so they stay level with the rest of the base. Also, the curves will probably require closer joints or I'd use up a 4x8 sheet making one corner. 

I'm all ears, because so far I'm not coming up with a workable plan. I'm not a cabinet maker, so I need all the help I can get. 

One factor here is I need the hangers to take minimal additional vertical space, I don't have much of that to spare, the ceiling is only around 7' 4' in the basement.


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## NIMT

Give me a little bit and I'll get back to you on this!


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## gunrunnerjohn

You got it.  I haven't started buying materials yet, because I want to make sure I have a proper plan first.


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## NIMT

These are some examples of ways to make floating hangers. The reason to let the road bed float it that it allows for expansion and contraction and if you put silicon, rubber, or felt between the hanger and the road bed it will reduce transmitted noise to almost Zero! Use could use a dowel rod to allow for movement as pictured in the bottom right example.







Full size image attached on bottom.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have a dropped ceiling, so I'll have to adjust to that reality, but that looks pretty simple. How do you join the roadbed at the seams? Have you actually seen it done this way? I have visions of the roadbed moving, but I guess that's probably not an issue? I wonder if I use a rubber buffer on the hangers, would that eliminate the need for a sound deadening base for the individual tracks?


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## NIMT

Same hangers, I screw them to the grid and install an extra wire if it sags! I would get a biscuit joiner for the seams it's like tongue and grooving it. I would line the top of the road bed with 1/8 flooring foam to help keep it quiet! Yes I've seen it done and I've done it myself. It will wobble and move till the whole section is up that's normal.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'll have to look into that option. I don't think I'd connect to the grid, the guys that did this ceiling were not very generous with the wire, I'm afraid it would fall down! I'd rather connect to the joists. 

For the walls, I'm planning on more standard shelf brackets, but the aerial parts not next to a wall are more problematic.

I'll have to look into a biscuit joiner, not sure exactly how they work. I've used dowels before in similar projects.

What about connecting the plywood sections to each other? Clearly, that needs to be done as well before I put track on it.


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## NIMT

I would do it in this arrangement then.







You could put a 1x2 across the rafters if you needed to put up a hanger where there is no studs over head!


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## gunrunnerjohn

That looks doable, I could probably hide the heads of those bolts as well.

Do you have a drawing or a reference how you'd do a biscuit joint on this piece? From the side view, it looks like all the load at the top is supported by whatever is holding those pieces together, are you thinking screws there? What about the bottom?


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## NIMT

You can use acorn nuts they will be visible but will look good!
Yea I would glue and screw the hangers together, the biscuits are for joining the ply together!


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## tjcruiser

You could drill a 3/8" or 1/2" hole sideways into the ends of the deck panel ... maybe an inch or 1.5" deep. Then, insert a steel or copper pipe into the hole, with a small tapped hole on one "face" of the pipe, facing up. Drill through the face of the deck in the same spot. Thread your tierods down into the pipe. Tediuous, but you won't see any fasteners on the bottom of the deck.

Or, an easier option ...

Drill and insert wood-to-machine-screw anchors into the top of the deck, and screw the tierods into those. Something like one of these (first few items on link):

http://www.rockler.com/search_results.cfm?srch=usr&filter=insert

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> You could drill a 3/8" or 1/2" hole sideways into the ends of the deck panel ... maybe an inch or 1.5" deep. Then, insert a steel or copper pipe into the hole, with a small tapped hole on one "face" of the pipe, facing up. Drill through the face of the deck in the same spot. Thread your tierods down into the pipe. Tediuous, but you won't see any fasteners on the bottom of the deck.


Don't think I'm quite catching what you're talking about here.



> Or, an easier option ...
> 
> Drill and insert wood-to-machine-screw anchors into the top of the deck, and screw the tierods into those. Something like one of these (first few items on link):
> 
> http://www.rockler.com/search_results.cfm?srch=usr&filter=insert
> 
> TJ


Well, with 1/2" plywood, I'm not sure this will be all that strong, I'd have to use thicker decking. I gather you're saying don't use the hangers and just run the rods in directly?


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## gunrunnerjohn

NIMT said:


> Yea I would glue and screw the hangers together, the biscuits are for joining the ply together!


I'd have to see an example of how that works for that 1/2" plywood.


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## NIMT

Here you are.







And a simplified hanger!


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## Zeke

I wish I could be of help but, like you, I've only ever built flat platforms. The best I can do is cheer from the sidelines. Looking forward to your progress and hoping to learn a few things myself along the way.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm wondering if that would be strong enough in 1/2" plywood, it doesn't seem to be that secure. I've seen the biscuits in stores, but I never did any investigation of them or their use. I gather that you glue the biscuits in and clamp them to dry?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Question on using biscuits. I picked up some "size 10", not knowing anything about the sizes, they just looked about right. They're a very tight fit in a 1/8" slot, but loose in a 5/32, the next size slot cutter I have.

I'm thinking I'd stick with the 1/8" slot and force them into place? They are supposed to expand, but I have no idea how much, and I don't want to make weak joints because I didn't cut the right size slot.


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## Big Ed

Maybe start down on the bottom table first?

Your putting it on wheels anyway right?


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## tjcruiser

Biscuits do expand with wood glue. Hard to say how much, exactly. Do a trail-run sample, perhaps?

Are you planning on biscuit-joining the whole wrap-around-the-room shelf? That would seem cumbersome to me. Maybe biscuit a few modular pieces?

TJ


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## Gansett

Bisquits do more for alignment then adding strength to the joint. Or so say the woodworking guru's.
If not kept in a sealed container they will swell a bit from the moisture in the air. That might be the reason they're tight.


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## NIMT

I would go with the looser fit that allows for the glue and expansion while setting! Forcing it to fit will run you into trouble.


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## gunrunnerjohn

NIMT said:


> I would go with the looser fit that allows for the glue and expansion while setting! Forcing it to fit will run you into trouble.


I'll give that a go on a trial run, I thought that was a bit too tight, I had to almost hammer in it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> Biscuits do expand with wood glue. Hard to say how much, exactly. Do a trail-run sample, perhaps?
> 
> Are you planning on biscuit-joining the whole wrap-around-the-room shelf? That would seem cumbersome to me. Maybe biscuit a few modular pieces?
> 
> TJ


I'm going to have plywood (decided against MDF), and my current plan is to suspend it with those pipes that I posted earlier. I considered the hangers, but I think the pipes will give a more open look, and I'm pretty sure they're strong enough. My plan is to get a couple sets and hang a sample and make sure it all works, then proceed. Where the pieces join, I'll be using the biscuits to join them.


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## gunrunnerjohn

OK, these pictures are for Ed, I'm sick of his needling me to start the layout. 

To be absolutely technical, this is a "dry run" to see if my hanging method will work out. I put up two pieces and I'm going to glue/clamp the biscuit joint between them, wait 24 hours, and see if I'm happy with the results.

The pipe hangers are more than up to the task, the base is solid as a rock. Of course, I found out that the house isn't all that straight, and I'll need shims at places to keep the track level! All in all, I think this will work out and not be that hard to do. I'm going to cover the pipes with something, haven't decided what I'll do there yet.


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## Gansett

Is that 1" pipe your platform is hanging from? 

Got a chuckle over your comment about shims. My house is 12 years old, not a plumb wall or 90' square corner in it. Except for the downstairs that my son and I finished.


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## raleets

Wait till your house is 55 years old, like mine, then it's as crooked as a carnival dealer. :laugh:
Bob


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## novice

I think it looks pretty darn good 

Can't wait to see more of the layout


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## Big Ed

Why thank you,

IT IS ABOUT TIME!


May I ask how the train is going to get around the pipe?

Or are you planning on having 2 tracks one on each side of the pipe?

Or are you adding on underneath the wood I see?

Can you make the pipe into custom trees somehow?

Does the Misses think your nuts yet?:laugh:


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## raleets

grjohn,
My question is.......who's gonna' rub your neck and shoulders every night after working on that ceiling layout stuff? 
Bob


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## gunrunnerjohn

raleets said:


> grjohn,
> My question is.......who's gonna' rub your neck and shoulders every night after working on that ceiling layout stuff?
> Bob


Got that covered.


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## raleets

Hallelujah! :laugh:
Bob


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm using 1/2" galvanized pipe, seems more than sufficient for the task. The platform is rock solid, I think I could chin myself on it!

I should have expected to have to shim things, but now I do.  

Ed, the train goes right through the pipe, and rejoins the halves right after, it's positively magical!  Yes, there are going to be two tracks, one on each side.


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm using 1/2" galvanized pipe, seems more than sufficient for the task. The platform is rock solid, I think I could chin myself on it!
> 
> I should have expected to have to shim things, but now I do.
> 
> Ed, the train goes right through the pipe, and rejoins the halves right after, it's positively magical!  Yes, there are going to be two tracks, one on each side.



The board doesn't look wide enough from the pictures.
I thought you were going to use a lot of curves.

Crash protection figured in?

I was not kidding about the trees. 
Sort of like they do along the PA pike in spots on the phone towers.

I wouldn't worry about hiding them, just paint them.:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

The board is 12" wide, however that's just a trial. I was testing the idea of suspending it this way, and I'm happy with the results. I actually have decided to make the board 14" wide, at least for the curves. 12" is more than enough for two trains on the straightaway. On one side, there'll be wall, so that's not an issue. On the other side, I'm going to do some sort of railing, but I haven't figured exactly what form it'll take.

There clearly will be a lot of curves, here's the picture of roughly what the ceiling track will look like, as well as the top of the helix that connects to the main platform.


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## tjcruiser

John,

Congrats on the progess! Great to see.

Q. -- How are you going to cut/fit the drop ceiling panels to get them installed back around those pipes ... especially when the pipes are not at the edge of a panel?

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, it's only small progress, but at least I've finally gotten started. 

I'm going to put a hole in the ceiling panels and then just screw the pipe through the panel. If it's a panel I expect to have to take out, I'll simply cut a line from the nearest edge, once the panel is laying back in place, it's virtually invisible.

I did decide that the screws will have to come through the bottom, just no way to secure a thin panel with sufficient strength. I'm considering my options for hiding the screws.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Here's the current state of my layout planning. The green block in the corner is the table. I note that I didn't totally enclose it, it goes to the edge of the grid. I also think I'll need a least one drop down on the big end for access.

I have a couple of issues.

1. I can't seem to figure out how to represent a grade so I can draw the helix layers.

2. Looking for some ideas on what to put on the main table. I'm thinking of at least two loops around, and of course I need to have the connections to the helix for trains to go to/from the ceiling tracks.

I could run an elevated track on the table to add some action, if I was really creative I could probably tap off the helix and use that to access the second level.

Looking for some input now.  I added the AnyRail source for some creative input.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Here's the latest work on the layout. I think I have the ceiling tracks pretty well in hand, and I'm ordering the hardware to hang them now. I'm struggling with ideas for the main platform, any help? 



*Main table*










*Ceiling Tracks & Helix*


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## novice

Wow, that's going to be a great set up - can't wait to see the progress pics.

Wish I could offer suggestions, but unless you need a hammer, I have nothing


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I'm somewhat drawing a blank on the main table, gotta do something there. 

I'm not going to leave the two loops the way they are, I was just laying track. I do want a couple of loops in the main table, but I'm hoping to add a little "interest" to it.


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## novice

How big is the main table going to be?


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## gunrunnerjohn

The main table overall dimensions are 8x13, but the helix chews up some of it. I also see that my layout shifted, so I'll have to fix that...


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## gunrunnerjohn

Got gobs of hangers ordered, and I'm still thinking on the layout.

Here's my problem area, I want to do something interesting here, but I have somewhat limited space. I'm thinking of perhaps having a switch at the first level of the helix to do an elevated track, I'd like to see if I can work that in.

I'm looking for suggestions on what do do here to make an "interesting" layout on the main level.

Here's what I have so far, I'm having writer's block. :laugh: One thing I'm sure I need is a way to reverse a train so I can get them running either direction on the main level tracks. I added the switches to be able to get to/from the outer loop.












The ceiling track is pretty set, I've added a siding and an exit in the middle to allow a bit more flexibility in parking things up there. I'm not sure how much more I can do here, but if anyone has a suggestion for something cool, I'm all ears.


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## tjcruiser

As far as reversing a train on the main level is concerned, you wouldn't have to add much to incorporate a simple reverse loop ... either of the two red options could work. The left red one might be easier, as everything would be flat ... no grade change.


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## Big Ed

Yours would not work TJ the bottom one is tying in on the grade and the top one would not reverse it. 

The one I lined in should do it as it is at the bottom of the grade, need 2 switches though.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The one on the right is out, not enough room for the switch there, but the one at the top is probably pretty easy to accomplish. I'm getting faster with AnyRail.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You're right Ed, I looked again and that didn't do the trick! 

However, if I leave that, I can just reverse the one at the bottom and get the same thing easier.


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## tjcruiser

big ed said:


> Yours would not work TJ the bottom one is tying in on the grade and the top one would not reverse it.
> 
> The one I lined in should do it as it is at the bottom of the grade, need 2 switches though.
> View attachment 10234


Ha ha ...

I guess it depends on which way a train is going at the start! I was imagining he's running clockwise at the start, and that a side-trip through my left RED turnout gets him going counterclockwise. That works, right?

It doesn't work to do the opposite, though ... that's likely what you were seeing, Ed.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... Looks like all the combinations will take a little more work in looking closer at this!


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You're right Ed, I looked again and that didn't do the trick!
> 
> However, if I leave that, I can just reverse the one at the bottom and get the same thing easier.



I didn't think of that that would be the best and easiest.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... that still doesn't do it. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and plan on putting track over the dropdowns, because I can't reach things even now with the current layout.


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## fitz04

john did u figer out the guard rail yet?what i used was cotter pins with fish line it is very strong will stop a loco from going to the floor u only c the pins and looks good in my opinion


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## gunrunnerjohn

Interesting idea. I got evicted from the basement, so this was sidetracked.


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## Big Ed

fitz04 said:


> john did u figer out the guard rail yet?what i used was cotter pins with fish line it is very strong will stop a loco from going to the floor u only c the pins and looks good in my opinion


What pound test fishing line did you use?
Do you have a picture?

EVICTED from the basement! 
Hell that is what you get for buying her a new car?:smilie_daumenneg:
What did she give you the living room instead?


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have a room, however it's full of stuff right now.


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have a room, however it's full of stuff right now.


That sounds like the bathroom. :laugh:
Well at least it is not the doghouse.


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## fitz04

only picture i have,u have to look close to c the line fish line is 15 lb, i have taken the train down it is being redone with 2 tracks and all tread in the cieling almost done have to modif the bridges and put the fish line gaurd back up, the fish line did work when i got a little fast in the s corner it derailed and the fish line held it really happy about that as i just bought the train that day still learning


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## Big Ed

Good ideal fitz......first time I ever hear of that.:thumbsup:


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## fitz04

here r a few pictures of my new ceiling trains i am working on


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## fitz04

here r the pictures

































Mod edit: Insert pictures into post.


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