# Tubular or Not To Tubular, that is the question!



## rdeal (Mar 6, 2013)

The train project (permanent Christmas layout) is progressing on schedule – basement room/cleaned - carpet installed – drop ceiling/almost finished – wall painting/almost finished – all plywood moved to basement – need to decide layout height before mid august – all is on “GO”

BUT, ONE HURDLE THAT SO FAR I HAVE NOT BEEN UNABLE TO CROSS – I CAN NOT GET MY MIND SETTLED ON WHICH OF THE VARIOUS TRACK OPTIONS TO CHOOSE.

Before I began this project – a year or so ago my plan was two pronged – 1) paint table – bright Christmas red – smooth, slick, and high gloss – 2) use tubular track as my layout was in the late ‘40’s and mid ‘50’s – (the a 5x9 plywood painted green)

Later as I began – I discovered the (I think) the ease and simplicity of Lionel’s Fastrack. But I just can not get the original plan out of my mind. And, this morning “Mark the Menards Train Guy” posted the following: _Hi Everyone, In the fall, we plan to alleviate your O gauge tubular track anxieties! If you have any upcoming tubular track needs, it may be worth it to wait a few months. I can't say more, except to tell you that the price will be right! Thank you, Mark the Menards Train Guy_

Would I be – out of bounds – a complete nut – to use all tubular track – REMEMBER – for me and the layout – only two switches for the loop to loop – no sidetracks – no switching – just running three trains, two hand cars and one trolley

What is your thinking? I do need your help – You can even raise your voice


thanks so much, rdeal


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I have had a lot of trouble with my set of fastrack. Continuity and voltage drop being two big issues. In some areas, to fix it, I have created patch wires for the positive lead from track to track as I shouldn't need more than 2 drops on a 4x8 table with a simple fastrack oval. I've not had this trouble with tube track but the fastrack does looks a lot better.

All that said, the starter set that most of my track came with has been incredibly problematic from the transformer (had to be replaced), track, and engine/cars (passenger car lights constantly fail) and I might have just gotten a bad set.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

You will get replies based upon personal experience and preference. There are several good choices when it really comes down to it.

The most popular track system in use today is tubular. Some of this is because it is the oldest track system and historically because many of us have used it for a very long time, we like it and have found it to be very reliable. Those who are going for the most realistic track appearance will not use tubular track. 

In a Christmas Layout, I don't think you are going for 100% realism, so tubular track is probably a very good option for you.

We use it for both of our layouts and the photo below shoes the early stages with the tubular track installed.

View attachment 62562


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

The main drawbacks to FasTrack are price and noise.

A large layout done entirely of FT containing a significant number of switches can cost $1,000 and more just for track. 

I am thinking of adding some FT to my layout but just to put together a simple Y was going to cost $3-400.

If you have deep pockets and prepared to employ some type of sound dampening FT is a very attractive track system.

In my case, I have so much tubular track it's net cost to me is practically 0.


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## rdeal (Mar 6, 2013)

"BigAl56" - thanks for your answer and photo

what/which roadbed are you using - how does that effect performance and or sound?

rdeal


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I've used tubular, Fastrack, and Atlas. All are great types of track. Fastrack tends to be noisy that the others. If I were doing a Christmas layout, I'd use tubular, because its more traditional, toy-train, rather than model-train like, and that fits a Christmas theme, I think.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

My layout is over AstroTurf like carpeting and that minimizes the noise. I have speculated inserting strips of fiberglass insulation under FasTrack sections would have a quieting effect but have not tried it yet so not sure.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I had Fastrack for five years before switching to Atlas. It was very noisy. I worked long and very hard to reduce the noise level, trying lots of things and using both a DB meter and my ear to decide what worked. Astroturf will help only a tiny bit, fiberglass insulation under/inside the plastic roadbed will not be worth the trouble. There are ways to mitigate its noisiness but it will remain somewhat noisy. I had to replace it eventually, not for noise reasons, and I went to Atlas just for the much quieter operation, and in spite of the fact I would have to ballast it myself.

The only things that really worked to lower the noise of Fastrack were:
1) Put it not just on Astroturf, but on Astroturf atop 1/4 or 3/8 inch foamrubber underlay padding. 
2) Don't screw it down: screws from the Fastrack through the astroturf to the wood below will transmit and even amplify its noise to the benchtop. If you need to anchor it, use Liguid Nail or a silocn caulk to spot attach it to the Astroturf
3) putting insulation, even packed tight, inside the roadbed does nearly nothing. What does work is massive work. Turn each piece over, use an expanding, hardening filler foam, like Great Stuff = run a bead of it about 3.4 inch tick along the underside of the track piece. I will expand to fill the entire roadbed side to side and puff up about four inches. You simple have to experiment with how much you lay down, the goal is to just fill the enire thing, side to side. When it has dried overnight and is hard, cut if off flush with the bottom of the roadbed using a bread-knife. Fastrack is noisy partly because the plastic roadbed body resonates like a violin. This stops most of that. 

4) I did no do this, but you can slide a rod, metal or plastic, into each rail, (it has to be thinner than the connector pins, obviously - some coathangers work, but not all), cutting it to length so the pins still fit right but it is long enough to fill all the enpty space between them. This makes a measurable difference in rolling noise but was so much work I experimented with it but did not do it. 

With all but that last all , it is still much noiser than Atlas, but much less noisy than before.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2015)

*"If I were doing a Christmas layout, I'd use tubular, because its more traditional, toy-train, rather than model-train like, and that fits a Christmas theme, I think."*

Lee has this correct.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

*O27 Tubular*

This question is constantly brought up and my answer is that I continue to use tubular track, specifically O27 due to its low profile, incredible conductivity and inexpensive cost. Also, it isn't that hard to make it very realistic. Good luck with the Christmas layout.


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## Trent Bishop (Jun 8, 2015)

Although layouts look great in gargraves,fasttrack or any other high end track.I am a old school prewar collector and its o gauge tube track for me.


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## Trent Bishop (Jun 8, 2015)

Oh and by the way I am restoring a bunch of o21 prewar switches lots of fun(not)


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2015)

Really nice photo, Wood. I also like what you have done to dress up the tubular track.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a lot of tubular track, and my motivation for using it is because it is inexpensive. I have bought O-31 for 50 cents to $1 a section. It is very easy to cut it if necessary. It is also somewhat flexible, so if things don't line up exactly, it still works OK. The other main point is I like the looks of it because I had tubular track when I was a kid. I also like 022 switches, 711 switches, 020 crossings, ZW transformers, KW transformers, postwar rolling stock, etc. Reliving my childhood? I guess so.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Servoguy posted: Reliving my childhood? I guess so.


Oh yeah you are!! And, why not???? 

Not to mention the fact this stuff is dependable. My example is an MTH Z4000 transformer somewhere north of $400.00 to purchase and I bought two. Well I have used one of mine for the last 8 years. The fan stopped working, the motherboard developed a glich and I have had it at the shop for 8 months. They fixed the fan but the Motherboard is not available until they place a new order with China. 

I also have a KW transformer and a ZW transformer and guess what is running my trains???? They are awesome machines and easily repaired. Back to the track. Many of those original Lionel items are remarkably durable. The new stuff has lots of fancy add-ons but I just want to run the trains without all the sweat....


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have two ZWs and four KWs. Talk about reliable and cheap!! I have a masters degree in electrical engineering and 52 years of engineering experience, and I still run conventional with mostly post war equipment. The largest layout I have built covered the floors of two bedrooms. It had forty 022 switches on the main line, wired in pairs so that when one switch was thrown by the loco using the non-derailing feature, another switch was also thrown. It took 22 minutes for the train to go completely around the track. I had a control panel with switches that allowed me to run one, two, or three trains at once. I restored all of the 022 switches and wrote a long thread on restoring 022 switches. 022/711 operating pblms. Look for it with Google. After modification, the 022 switches were bulletproof. I have restored about 125 022 switches.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

One more interesting point. When I make a large layout of tubular track, I usually use only one feed to the layout. I make sure the connections between sections have very low resistance which I can do with tubular track. I can measure down to 20 micro ohms. The joints between sections usually have less than 7 milliohms of resistance. Because I make floor layouts, I don't want a lot of wiring all over the floor, and making a lot of connections which takes time and reduces the time to run the trains.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Not everyone can design reliable electronics. A few years ago, a mechanic friend and I redesigned the blower controller for BMW sedans. The wizard that designed the controller didn't know much about electrical engineering, and the units would fail. We bought $5 worth of parts from the local surplus store and in a short afternoon had a design that has never failed. The original design had 4 transistors in parallel with no emitter resistors. It is likely that if you had a circuit diagram for the Z4000 transformer and gave it to a good EE, he would tell you where the likely failures are.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

servoguy said:


> . . . I have a masters degree in electrical engineering and 52 years of engineering experience, and I still run conventional . . . .


Me too - well, only 47 years experience so far here - but I run only conventional although I like to run a lot of the new Legacy and such locos, but only conventionally.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Servoguy posted: I have a masters degree in electrical engineering and 52 years of engineering experience, and I still run conventional with mostly post war equipment.


Well, well, well.... Nice to hear about your experience and choices. I have a good friend here who might chime in and whom also is an EE and similarly runs conventional with all of the newer equipment. I have another friend who has built a 1200 sq foot layout utilizing only the original Lionel O track and switches and it is a thing of beauty.

We have wonderful choices available in the model train industry. Lionel made a good product and still does today along with MTH, Bachman and Atlas plus a multitude of smaller companies like RTM, Gargraves, Ross, Electric Railroad etc. And, the vast majority of it is dang good stuff.

I have tried to mix the old with the new which has been a lot of fun. It has been my choice to keep tubular track and the transformers and I swear by them. But, I have also incorporated a multitude of the newer choices of equipment because they are also lots of fun and give an incredible railroading experience with their sounds, remote control and scale appearance.

To each his on and congratulations Servoguy on your choices, your success and your long history of model railroading. Keep riding the rails......


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

I knew that kid with 47 years of EE would chime in......


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, as a long time electrical engineer, I still like the modern stuff. I think the command and automation stuff is the cat's meow.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2015)

Wood & Lee make many good points about our hobby. We have so many excellent choices, and the choices we do have seem to be getting better and better.

What a time to be in this hobby.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes, we have many good choices. Since I am an operator, I buy stuff that is not pristine. If it has a few scratches, that is OK. I like a layout with many switches and I like them to be controlled by the loco so all I have to do it watch. I liked this when I was a kid and I still like it. It is not model railroading. It is toy trains. I don't build scenery as it is difficult enough to walk over the track. I don't make drawings of the layout either. I just start laying track. I do run constant voltage power to the switches.


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## rdeal (Mar 6, 2013)

servoguy "It is toy trains"

this is my NEW motto !

rdeal


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Agreed with everyone! I like tubular because of its cost and it works! The old school feel brings me back to my childhood. I don't care about realism, so I like the toy like look. I do prefer o over O27, just because its stronger and more readily available in bigger curves. Also the the older o switches are bulletproof. No offence to the 027 guys, just preference!


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> I do prefer o over O27, just because its stronger and more readily available in bigger curves. Also the the older o switches are bulletproof. No offence to the 027 guys, just preference!


I couldn't agree more about O27 switches. I fought with them for years and finally moved to Gargraves which mates nicely with O27.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2015)

Wonderful photos, Wood. You certainly make a very good point with them.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Wood,
Those are great photos to show how you mated GarGraves switches with 027 track. The more I try each track, and the more I consider cost, I think it is a good combination.

Man, I like those photos!!


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Mark posted: The more I try each track, and the more I consider cost, I think it is a good combination.


Thank you Mark and good to see you! 

All of the O27 track has been weathered and I have installed 3Rail Plastic ties. I appreciate your comment because it confirms my view of how nice this looks. 

For me cost is a real consideration. I have 40+ switches. I posted somewhere else on this forum about cost, so I will make this short. These switches with DZ2500 switch motors are $55.00 each from wholesaletrains.com All of the other top end remote switches are considerably more. Upwards to $100+ per switch. Add to the fact that this switch works very well!! 

Yes, you do have to do a little tinkering when installing but I think that is true of any switch. Once settled in I have had very minor problems. I had one switch motor go south and Gargraves replaced it free of charge and postage paid. The other tweeking I do is sometimes the center rails, near the frog, need a little bending because once in a while the truck wheels will touch the 3rd rail and short out with the common outside rail. 

This is a very well made switch. If you decide to use them and need any help - message me and I will gladly share my experience.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Mark I found the thread. 

If you want a little more info.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=447450#post447450


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Wood,
Good to see you here too!
Thank you for the link to the other topic. I saved it for future reference! :thumbsup:


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