# Buy new or restore Old



## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

Greetings all,

I have just finished cleaning up and getting running my Dad's old Lionel set. 

I have a 6250 Sea Board, a 204 Steam engine that I can't find the tender to, and another steam engine 1110 Steam engine, also missing the tender. So far they are running great. I would like to find the tenders to the engines but not sure if I will ever be able to locate them. These are all in pretty decent shape.

I was also thinking that I would like to have a set that I would not mind letting the kids play with. I want a steam engine (I'm a sucker for smoke) and some cars. I looked at a few kits, but I just can't see my kids holding the same reverence for those trains when they are older as I do with my Dad's. I guess the "Made in China" stamp is what really gets me.


To that note do you think I could find a decent set maybe not in need of such attention as my Dad's that were of similar build quality? 

Maybe buy some older ones from ebay and just redo the paint?

I'm at a loss.


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## BMcComas221 (Nov 11, 2011)

*I'm with you...*

I agree. Its sure is hard to put down the cash for a new engine that is supposed to represent American ingenuity and power knowing it has that "made in china" tag...


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Some of the stuff made in the 90's is pretty good quality (my NYC Flyer steam set for example) and is all over ebay. It was made in the U.S.A too and can be had without breaking the bank.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

For me, I like the old stuff.

I have 3 locos purchased in the 50's by my father and 3 purchased in the 80's for my sons.

I want to preserve them all for the next generation (my excuse to buy more!)

Last weekend, I found 2 locos at the Springfield, Ohio show which were pretty decent.

You have to be careful, I've seen and knowingly bought repainted trains.

I have had some luck at an auction too.

What part of Ohio are you in?

Perhaps I can refer you to a good store.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Look around eBay, lots of tenders being sold. I just unloaded a box of them on eBay.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Look around eBay, lots of tenders being sold. I just unloaded a box of them on eBay.



You been selling a lot on e bay.

What did you have, around 3000 pieces of O/27 track?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I originally thought I was going to do the layout in O27, and I bought a couple large lots of track pretty cheap. After running a bit with some of the locomotives I have, it became clear that I wasn't going to be happy with the O27 track for the layout. So, I proceeded to clean it up and unload it in batches.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I originally thought I was going to do the layout in O27, and I bought a couple large lots of track pretty cheap. After running a bit with some of the locomotives I have, it became clear that I wasn't going to be happy with the O27 track for the layout. So, I proceeded to clean it up and unload it in batches.



What was the yellow track car you were selling?
I forgot to mark it in the watch.

Some of the stuff you can use?

like the 260 bumpers your selling?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yellow track car? Not sure I know which one you're talking about. 

I have 9 or 10 more #260 bumpers, so I figured I'd test the waters and see what people pay for them.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yellow track car? Not sure I know which one you're talking about.
> 
> I have 9 or 10 more #260 bumpers, so I figured I'd test the waters and see what people pay for them.



Some kind of hand car?

It was going for $47 when I last looked, I forgot to watch it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have no idea what that was without a better description.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have no idea what that was without a better description.



You just sold it the other day.

Might have been Marx?

It was two men pumping a handle on a RR hand car, you know the kind you pump to make it move down the rail.

It was yellow in color....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Marx? Handcar? I don't think I've had anything like that for sale, I'm sure I'd remember. You know, you can search completed listings, right? 

I just did a search on my listings, you must have me confused with someone else, nothing like that appears in the last couple weeks.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

Dave Sams said:


> For me, I like the old stuff.
> 
> I have 3 locos purchased in the 50's by my father and 3 purchased in the 80's for my sons.
> 
> ...


I live near Youngstown. I found a few tenders on ebay, not sure what models came with these that I have. I guess I'll try and find a nicer used set maybe from the 90's. Any other quality O guauge you all are fans of?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I actually like some of the other brands, the earlier K-Line stuff before Lionel bought them, the IDR stuff, and some of the Williams rolling stock.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

Ok, couple more questions. I took apart and cleaned the motors. The diesel runs like a champ. The 1110 runs great,but will only go in reverse. The 204 is a different story. I'm thinking it may need more work. The one wheel was loose so I put a drop of locktite on it, it stays on the axel now,but the screw that keeps the rods attached works itself out if I spin the wheels. The motor may need more work too.

As for a newer engine I'm !ooking for a sight tha can give a rough price list so that I know if I'm paying a fair price.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Welcome to the club, the 1110 is a maddening little beast! The Scout E-Unit that is internal to the motor is a PITA! Ask T-Man, both he and I worked on one for hours and never did get it to work right!

For pricing, you can't beat looking on eBay and searching the completed listings. That will give you an idea of what people are actually paying for stuff.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

I have all the engines running pretty good now. I actually got the Scout to work, I had to play with the E unit a bit but all is good with it now. I also found the whistle tender for the 240, I have it up and running too. Now I thought a nice little loop around the tree would be in order. 

Problem is the tree is already up and decorated. I tried to just lay track but I have hardwood floors and the weight of the engines and their inertia make the track come apart. 

Any ideas? I could just nail it to the floor. My wife probably won't notice...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What you need is track clips. They come for either O27 or O31 tubular track.


*Lionel O27 Track Clips*











*Lionel O31 Track Clips*


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

That might do it. I was also browsing my local CL and saw a set that looked interesting, I was trying to identify the set but I can't really tell by the picture.

Any ideas as to what set this might be?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Can't see the box clearly enough to get a number. Does he list an actual model or set number in the ad?


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

I could swear it says Milwaukee road. I called the seller and left a message. I can't seem to find the set anywhere.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Track clips is a great suggestion. If in a bind, though, simply lash the adjacent ties together tightly with some thin, strong line.

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nail them to the floor.:laugh::thumbsup:

They sell wood putty.


Cut a piece of plywood for around the tree?
2 halves just push them together?


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

Seller told me it is an ho set. Oh well, I'll keep looking


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

Any one have any experience with the Great Northern Empire set. It's on sale....It's a bit pricey, but it looks decent. All die-cast, even the tender, trainsounds, track, transformer.

I like my old stuff, but it's a bit finicky at times. Sometimes you just want something that you can use and enjoy and not always fiddle with.

Well except for gunrunner and TJ... (I've been reading a lot of threads)


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I don't run O gauge, but I'd offer this observation to the old-vs-new argument: when you restore one of these old beasties (and I mean that affectionately), you learn two things. The first is how well model trains used to be built. The second is you really come to understand how the locomotives work. 

That said, you have to have the manual dexterity, the time, patience, and a place to work on them undisturbed. If you lack any of the 4, buying new might be the better choice.

Best wishes on it!


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

Well I did just restore 5 engines 

Don't get me wrong it was a labor of love, they were my Dad's and I have a lot of fond memories tied to them. I love to watch them roll around the track. 

I just think the new engines with all the bells and whistles (pun intended) would be a blast to play with.....


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

jcroyle said:


> I like my old stuff, but it's a bit finicky at times. Sometimes you just want something that you can use and enjoy and not always fiddle with.
> 
> Well except for gunrunner and TJ... (I've been reading a lot of threads)


""Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Tinkering is half the fun.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nothing feels better then taking a piece of "junk" and seeing it come alive with a little TLC.:thumbsup:

And like reckers says "your saving a piece of history".:thumbsup:


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Thank you, Ed! I admit I take a lot of pleasure in bringing one back on line. I like to believe that, in doing so, I'm preparing it for another 50 to 60 years of running time. It's like "owning" a piece of the earth: you never really own that property or that train. You're simply the steward to whom it was entrusted before passing it on to the next caretaker.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I agree about making old things run again is a blast. I like doing it. I am not so crazy about repainting things, and most of what I have doesn't need repainting.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

I was sooooo close to pulling the trigger on a K-Line Engine & Tender #4015 on ebay. It went for $235.00. I don't know if that would have been a steal or not. I just could not hit the button.


That train was huge...


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## mrjcoz (Apr 12, 2011)

thanks to every one here who gave me advice.my rehab project turned out better than i could have expected.baking the paint really makes the finish glw.just ran my refurbished 1668e pulling a tender a805 boxcar now my baggage car 2 610s and a 611.they were in rough shape .i did not have time to get them blasted and i did not want to deal with stripper or oven cleaner.my barn is not heated.dremel and steel wool and i got off most of the old repaint.the roofs were the original silver light sanding smoothed them out pretty well.the door window inserts i left alone.repainted them brite blue and light industrial gray,the 805 to match.left the tender black.1668 the same gray.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

We look forward to the pictures.


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## mrjcoz (Apr 12, 2011)

how do i post pics here? not too computer savvy


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

The best way IMO, is to upload pics to a web storage site like flikr or picasa. Then you can just link to them in a post.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's actually very easy to post them directly, which eliminates the issue of the links getting broken when you move or delete the image on the remote site.

Check out this thread: How to post pictures (with pictures)


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## mrjcoz (Apr 12, 2011)

have a few posted at the how to post pictures thread i don,t have the best camera.only seems to work well with good natural light.every one here has been exceptionally helpful.i try to get better pics if the sun ever shows.thanks again.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

For the sun to show again, you either have to go up about 30,000 ft or come south about 1000 miles. The sun is shining in Florida and the temp is about 75.


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## mrjcoz (Apr 12, 2011)

ahh ,just got done reading about fishing in the keys


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

I was wondering if any of you were familliar with the wiring of pre war engines. I have a 204 steamer,that is driving me nuts. I rewired it,using a diagram from online. It ran pretty good for a mimute then started to slow down,then just stop. I cleaned it all up, took apart the e unit and cleaned it. I think maybe I got a wire wrong,but not sure. A picture of the motor and wiring woud be great.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

There is no prewar, 204 made by Lionel.

You can check here.

You may want to read the manual thread.


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## mrjcoz (Apr 12, 2011)

i was lucky as the e-unit and wiring on my 1668 are in decent shape.i put a little dielectric i think the grease you would put inside a cap and rotor on an older car.on the drum.it still sticks a little .a little tap on top when it stalls between cycles gets it going.gonna review some of the expert work i have seen here and attempt an e-unit rehab.i got a 1666 that just buzzes i will start with.seems to be the same motor.the guys on this site have given me the kick in the butt to work on these old gems instead of shoving them in the closet.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

mrjcoz said:


> i put a little dielectric i think the grease you would put inside a cap and rotor on an older car.on the drum.it still sticks a little .a little tap on top when it stalls between cycles gets it going.
> 
> 
> 
> gonna review some of the expert work i have seen here and attempt an e-unit rehab.


I don't think dielectric grease on the drum is a good idea, but searching the forum for the proper lubricaiton of an e unit is a good idea.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

T-Man said:


> There is no prewar, 204 made by Lionel.
> 
> You can check here.
> 
> You may want to read the manual thread.


I actually can't find the model # it is a 2-4-2 with a road # of 204. This is what the assembly looks like.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=809

I thought this was the motor schematic
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/000515.pdf

I wonder if it is like a 1664 or something. The motor looks right for that too. 

It definitely had the two yellow wires coming from the field coil, and only one of the brushes had a connection. The wiring was so bad the when I was cleaning it some broke. I decided to replace it all. I should have taken a picture of it first . I did not because I was "going" to just do it all at once. Then life (read wife) had other plans.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

A better approach is to replace one wire at a time. There are two ways that Lionel wired the E units. One way the field was grounded at one end to the loco frame, the other way one brush was grounded to the loco frame. You have the grounded brush type. The E unit for your type reverses the polarity of the field and the brush polarity does not change. Someone on the forum should be able to direct you to a wiring diagram for your loco.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

A dielectric is an insulator, so dielectric grease is probably not going to give you the results you are looking for. The drum is not sticking. It is the solenoid plunger that is sticking. I think I would recommend Brake Clean to clean the plunger. The plunger does not need to be lubed. Brake Clean will also wash out the dielectric grease.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

servoguy said:


> A better approach is to replace one wire at a time. There are two ways that Lionel wired the E units. One way the field was grounded at one end to the loco frame, the other way one brush was grounded to the loco frame. You have the grounded brush type. The E unit for your type reverses the polarity of the field and the brush polarity does not change. Someone on the forum should be able to direct you to a wiring diagram for your loco.


Well one at a time was the plan....

I am sure that the diagram I used should work. The e unit does cycle, I see some arcing when it does though, possibly a short?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The wire to the brushes should be connected to the power terminal on the E unit that is also wired to the pickup. The two wires from the field should be connected to the drum contacts. That is as far as I can get you without taking a loco apart.


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## jcroyle (Dec 6, 2011)

servoguy said:


> The wire to the brushes should be connected to the power terminal on the E unit that is also wired to the pickup. The two wires from the field should be connected to the drum contacts. That is as far as I can get you without taking a loco apart.


Thanks sg. I made a new topic on it. Sooo back to buying old engines. I am really liking the look of a 681. I think I would like to get one in need of rescue and modify it to my liking. Nothing to gaudy just a little bit of highlights.

(I'll make sure to only replace one wire at a time if need be).


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

One thing I have done with my old prewar locos is disconnect each wire in turn at one end only. Then, after getting all the old insulation off, I insulate the wire with a piece of shrink tubing. This eliminates the problem of having to solder a wire to the pickup which can be a difficult thing to do. It also keeps me from getting lost.


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