# GarGraves vs Ross switches: Is there a huge difference?



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

I have a bunch of Lionel Fastrack that I would like to stick where the sun don't shine, and am looking at starting again from scratch. If I do, I will try to sell the Fastrack on Craigslist and/or eBay, and move on with life.

So: I have been reading a lot about both GarGraves and Ross switches and track, and I see a lot of recommendations for Ross switches with Gargraves or Atlas track.

The GarGraves factory, and Store is only about 50 minutes from where I live so I can get pretty decent deals from them, however, I don't want to buy any more trouble (been there done that with Lionel Fastrack).

Is there a marked difference in performance between these two brands of switches?
Are the Ross switches that much better so that I should hold out for them over the GarGraves?

Again, I want to go with the best option here.
Thanks,
Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The best option is the Ross switches. Gargraves switches aren't bad, but they're not Ross switches.  We have a number of each type on our modular club layout, as well as a boatload of the crappy Atlas switches.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The best option is the Ross switches. Gargraves switches aren't bad, but they're not Ross switches.  We have a number of each type on our modular club layout, as well as a boatload of the crappy Atlas switches.


Is there anything inherently dysfunctional regarding the GarGraves, like I have been having with the Fastrack switches, or are the Ross just the Cadillac of switches?


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Ross switches are definitely better than Gargraves. The Ross is more realistic (wood ties) than the Gargraves (plastic). The Ross is also mechanically superior. There is a huge difference in price though and in my opinion, Gargraves gives you a lot more bang for the buck. I use mostly Gargraves switches and only use Ross when they have something I need that Gargraves doesn’t make (such as their O72/O54 curved switch). Some complain of derailments with Gargraves switches, but in my experience, they are rare.

Incidentally, don’t count on getting the best price on Gargraves stuff directly from Gargraves. Just Trains of Delaware sells Gargraves stuff for significantly less than Gargraves and has it drop shipped from Gargraves. I’ve not found anyone that discounts Ross.


----------



## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

YES....HUGE difference. Ross all the way.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I have both Gargraves and Ross switches on my layout for around 15 to 20 years or so. They both function well but I have had two Ross switches come apart at the solder point that attaches to the moving rail after years of use. Ross switches do look more realistic than Gargraves.

Bill


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

My club has about 50 Ross, Curtis and Ross-Curtis Switches. (Ross and Curtis used to be partners. The Curtis and Ross-Curtis switches are similar to Ross but are no longer available.) We have been replacing the last of the Gargraves Switches with Ross. We haven't bought a new Gargraves switch in a long time but the Ross are definitely superior to the old Gargraves Switches. We have been having some problems with derailments with our GG switches that caused us to replace them with Ross. To be fair the GG switches are old (over 10 years on the layout).


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> Ross switches are definitely better than Gargraves. The Ross is more realistic (wood ties) than the Gargraves (plastic). The Ross is also mechanically superior. There is a huge difference in price though and in my opinion, Gargraves gives you a lot more bang for the buck. I use mostly Gargraves switches and only use Ross when they have something I need that Gargraves doesn’t make (such as their O72/O54 curved switch). Some complain of derailments with Gargraves switches, but in my experience, they are rare.
> 
> Incidentally, don’t count on getting the best price on Gargraves stuff directly from Gargraves. Just Trains of Delaware sells Gargraves stuff for significantly less than Gargraves and has it drop shipped from Gargraves. I’ve not found anyone that discounts Ross.


Availability of sizes is definitely a plus for Ross, as I really do need to use the O-31 switches, and they have them. GarGraves only goes down to O-42.

I will need four O-72’s, or something in that range for my cross overs, from one loop to the other, to conserve space by not having to space the two loops so far apart, but mostly I need the O-31’s, so I guess that fact alone sort of answers my question.

I am also glad to know that there is a quality difference as well.
QUESTION: When talking about derailments with the GarGraves switches, can any of you elaborate on the situations where this tends to happen with them?

Also, do any of you ever get derailments with the Ross switches?

Also, thanks for the tip on the tip on Just Trains of Delaware.

I really do wish I had known to look into this a bit more before investing in so much Fastrack.
O well, you live and you learn.

Roger


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Lehigh74 said:


> Ross switches are definitely better than Gargraves. The Ross is more realistic (wood ties) than the Gargraves (plastic). The Ross is also mechanically superior. There is a huge difference in price though and in my opinion, Gargraves gives you a lot more bang for the buck. I use mostly Gargraves switches and only use Ross when they have something I need that Gargraves doesn’t make (such as their O72/O54 curved switch). Some complain of derailments with Gargraves switches, but in my experience, they are rare.
> 
> Incidentally, don’t count on getting the best price on Gargraves stuff directly from Gargraves. Just Trains of Delaware sells Gargraves stuff for significantly less than Gargraves and has it drop shipped from Gargraves. I’ve not found anyone that discounts Ross.


I'm 15 minutes from the GarGraves factory. I'm in there alot, and they always give me a great price break on ANYTHING in the store.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

flyernut said:


> I'm 15 minutes from the GarGraves factory. I'm in there alot, and they always give me a great price break on ANYTHING in the store.


Interesting. I talked to one of the Gargraves guys at York and asked him specifically about the lower prices at Just Trains. He told me the retailer can charge whatever he wants and that with the volume they sell thru Just Trains, Gargraves would be shooting itself in the foot if they didn’t deal with them. Maybe if you are a neighbor and a good customer, Gargraves will give you a price break, but for most of us I don’t think that would work.


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Laidoffsick said:


> YES....HUGE difference. Ross all the way.


There simply is no comparison. I used all Ross track and switches on my current layout. Would never use anything else.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

To be honest about the Gargraves and Ross switches. Gargraves uses a plastic rail after the frog assembly on one side of the track(both sides; straight & curved coming out of the switch) for the outside rail, so back to back curves are not done without a small piece of straight track added in to keep the outside rail power. 
Ross has all metal rails, no plastic rails here, so Ross works better electrically then Gargraves, plus Ross has many more sizes & variations of switches then Gargraves does.
Also from what people on here are saying Ross is the Rolls Royce of switches!

Always check your switch for electrical output, some switches have the power for the center going in to them but no center rail output, and some other switches lose outside rail electrical after the switch point of the switch. So always check for electrical power or continuity with a multi-meter set to ohms and see if you get a complete circuit for both rails(into and out of the switch).

Lee Fritz


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> Ross switches are definitely better than Gargraves. The Ross is more realistic (wood ties) than the Gargraves (plastic). The Ross is also mechanically superior. There is a huge difference in price though and in my opinion, Gargraves gives you a lot more bang for the buck. I use mostly Gargraves switches and only use Ross when they have something I need that Gargraves doesn’t make (such as their O72/O54 curved switch). Some complain of derailments with Gargraves switches, but in my experience, they are rare.
> 
> Incidentally, don’t count on getting the best price on Gargraves stuff directly from Gargraves. Just Trains of Delaware sells Gargraves stuff for significantly less than Gargraves and has it drop shipped from Gargraves. I’ve not found anyone that discounts Ross.


You may get a better price on Gargraves switches then Ross but the quality is missing. 
In the past I was told by at least 2 hobby shops if they ordered over $500.00 worth of Gargraves track or switches they would get a discount from Gargraves.

You get what you pay for! GO with Ross and you won't regret it in my opinion. I'd rather pay for a great quality switch once rather then pay for a replacement a couple of times.

Also Ross sells DZ Industry products on their website.

Lee Fritz


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Lehigh74 said:


> Interesting. I talked to one of the Gargraves guys at York and asked him specifically about the lower prices at Just Trains. He told me the retailer can charge whatever he wants and that with the volume they sell thru Just Trains, Gargraves would be shooting itself in the foot if they didn’t deal with them. Maybe if you are a neighbor and a good customer, Gargraves will give you a price break, but for most of us I don’t think that would work.


Possibly..I usually deal with Mike, and sometimes Tom...Kathy, Mike and Tom's sister, went to HS with my wife.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> To be honest about the Gargraves and Ross switches. Gargraves uses a plastic rail after the frog assembly on one side of the track(both sides; straight & curved coming out of the switch) for the outside rail, so back to back curves are not done without a small piece of straight track added in to keep the outside rail power.
> Ross has all metal rails, no plastic rails here, so Ross works better electrically then Gargraves, plus Ross has many more sizes & variations of switches then Gargraves does.
> Also from what people on here are saying Ross is the Rolls Royce of switches!
> 
> ...


Ross Ready switches are wired to have continuous power thru the center rail to both branches. Gargraves switches are not wired through for continuous power through the center rail. You don’t really need a section of track between back to back switches…you can make or buy a pigtail.









The inside rail is not wired thru on either Ross or Gargraves and each side needs to be isolated for non-derailing operation. Both Ross and Gargraves have plastic frogs. Gargraves has plastic guard rails whereas Ross has metal.

If price were no object, I would go exclusively with Ross, but personally, I don’t think the difference in the switches is enough to justify the price difference.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The best option is the Ross switches. Gargraves switches aren't bad, but they're not Ross switches.  We have a number of each type on our modular club layout, as well as a boatload of the crappy Atlas switches.


OK, so I have been looking at Ross switches, track, and roadbed. 
Man do I wish I could step back a year, and start all over. Their O-31 switches are approx. $20 less than Fastrack O-31’s, who know? Well, now I know. The regular track is a fair amount more expensive, The curve pieces are about double, as far as I can tell, but very nice stuff none the less
.
I would be using all 0-31 curves and switches, except for the crossovers between loops, and they have that really nice 11 Degree Regular switch, their #100 and #101, that has a really gentle turn out, and with a bit of straight on the end of the turnout, for a gentle swing, and giving a 4” center spacing, and this switch is the same price as the O-31 switches. They are 14.65” long, so I will just have to see if they will fit my layout area. I have started a now layout in both SCAEM and ANYRAIL with these new track systems.

I will most likely go with the Ross switches, and track, or maybe GarGraves track. I probably won’t be using Atlas track since they don’t offer any curve sections between O-27, and O-36. I really want O-31, witch Ross does have. GarGraves has O-32 which I could probably use, but I have to see how their track prices out against Ross track, and how it mates up to it.

If I go this route, I would also want to use the Rossbed Road bed, so that is a consideration as well, with regard to GarGraves track. The Ross rep that I talked to mentioned a type of spackle paint that would look good to pre-paint the roadbed with. I won’t be planning any ballasting, as I am not in this hobby for 
the modeling so much as to run and watch trains.

Any suggestions with regard to any of the items I have mentioned here are welcomed.

Thank you for all of your recommendations so far.
Roger


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> Ross Ready switches are wired to have continuous power thru the center rail to both branches. Gargraves switches are not wired through for continuous power through the center rail. You don’t really need a section of track between back to back switches…you can make or buy a pigtail.
> 
> View attachment 145154
> 
> ...


I hate to burst your bubble on Gargraves switches not being wired through, some are and some are not wired through and it depends on the year made and the curve size.

What I was saying about the Ross switches is that they use metal on all rails verses Gargraves using plastic from the frog area to the end of the switch.
When I used Gargraves 042 switches a couple of years ago I had to put a small piece of straight track(one & a half inches)between the 2 switches I put back to back at the curved sections, I was using them as a siding from one track to another.

Lee Fritz


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Roger,

I have Gargraves curves and their 032 curve is closer to 32.5 inches in diameter then 32. As for Ross mating up to Gargraves they both use the same track pins. Ross curve in 031 might be closer to 31 inches then Gargraves is. As for Gargraves 042 curves verses Ross 042 there is probably a one inch difference is track diameter with Gargraves being slightly larger.

If you have not used Gargraves or Ross track before you will find out quickly that all rails are electrically separated.

Lee Fritz


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> Roger,
> If you have not used Gargraves or Ross track before you will find out quickly that all rails are electrically separated.
> 
> Lee Fritz


Thanks Philly,

I really do appreciate all the info from you, and all the others here.

Now I have to ask: What exactly do you mean when you say “I will soon find that all the rails are all electrically separated”?
Isn’t that true of all 2 and 3 rail track?

Me thinks me is not following something.

BTW, which is your first name, Lee or Fritz?
I am guessing Lee is your first name.

Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, stuff like Tubular track and Fastrack have the outside rails connected. However, Ross, Gargraves, Atlas, etc. have all the rails isolated. Obviously, you can connect the rails together if you like.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Roger,
my first name is Lee. Like gunrunnerjohn mentioned too Gargraves track needs to have both outside rails supplied with the common power feed or can be separated for use as an insulated section for a track accessory. Just take out one of the outside rail pins in each section of track to be insulated and put in an insulated one from Gargraves. 
Before Gargraves came out with insulated pins I used to cut down an S gauge insulating pin.

Lee Fritz


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> I hate to burst your bubble on Gargraves switches not being wired through, some are and some are not wired through and it depends on the year made and the curve size.
> 
> What I was saying about the Ross switches is that they use metal on all rails verses Gargraves using plastic from the frog area to the end of the switch.
> When I used Gargraves 042 switches a couple of years ago I had to put a small piece of straight track(one & a half inches)between the 2 switches I put back to back at the curved sections, I was using them as a siding from one track to another.
> ...


Come to think of it,I may have actually had one or two Gargraves switches many years ago that was wired thru. Current production is not. Here's what they say on the Gargraves site. _"GarGraves switches are not wired through for continuous power through the center rail. The user will need to provide track power to each end of the switch (three places). This can be done by adding jumper wires to the center rails of the track leading into the switch. A drawing of this is available on the diagrams and instructions page of the website. In addition both outside rails should be connected to the common on your power supply."_

And looking at the O42 switch on Gargraves site, I see what you are saying about plastic rails. Looks like that's the only size that does that.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

I have not seen that about the wiring on the new Gargraves switches, I will have to check their website. Also their 032 switch has the same design as the 042 with the plastic rail.

Lee Fritz


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> Roger,
> my first name is Lee. Like gunrunnerjohn mentioned too Gargraves track needs to have both outside rails supplied with the common power feed or can be separated for use as an insulated section for a track accessory. Just take out one of the outside rail pins in each section of track to be insulated and put in an insulated one from Gargraves.
> Before Gargraves came out with insulated pins I used to cut down an S gauge insulating pin.
> 
> Lee Fritz


So, does this mean that some switches have the outside rails electrically connected within the switch?

Roger


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

phillyreading said:


> I have not seen that about the wiring on the new Gargraves switches, I will have to check their website. Also their 032 switch has the same design as the 042 with the plastic rail.
> 
> Lee Fritz


Hay Lee,

I am reasonably sure that GarGraves doesn't offer an O-32 switch. Not only does there site not show it, but I called and asked to be certain, and the rep informed me that they don't offer anything tighter that O-42. I won't swear to much of anything at my age, but I am pretty sure about this.

Roger


----------



## Papa (Jan 11, 2012)

Not to be contrary but cost is a factor for many. For the price difference on my layout I have no problem using Gargraves switches.


----------



## Pingman (Aug 18, 2015)

Papa raises an important point which is often over-looked/not mentioned, and that is the specific application on a layout, the use of switches, and/or the location of the switch on the layout, and how one operates the layout. 

For my purposes, an around the room layout, modest by today's standards, and my operational purposes, GG switches are fine and Ross is not cost-justified. I don't do much switching and have no desire to do so. Also, backing through switches is not a consideration.

I recall Lee Willis' comments above or elsewhere that he has removed a large number of switches from his layout--i.e. I share his message that switches are over-rated and excessively present for the operating preferences of many O gauge operators.


----------



## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

I am using Gargraves and Ross track on my new layout. I am using Ross switches on the mainlines and other critical areas. I am using Gargraves on secondary lines,yard ladders and industrial spurs. I've been using Gargraves since the early 1970's. 

I tried Atlas a few years back on a 7' x 11' temporary layout. While the track is beautiful,the weak point is the switches and the cost. I also took a serious look at MTH Scaletrax and ended up hating it. Several of my friends love it. The system is very limited and the tie spacing is just wrong.

For me,its Ross and Gargraves all the way!


----------



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

One thing you might think about besides which manufacturer to go with is the size of the curves. 031 might be fine if you have a small layout but it really limits you as far as the types of engines and rolling stock you can use. Most of the scale passenger cars being offered these days require at least 054 if not larger.

If possible consider at least 042 or larger since those diameters will afford you the opportunity to run a lot bigger engine. I have 042 and 054 on my layout but wish I could have used 072 on the outside loop since it would have allowed me to run some of the bigger steam engines being offered.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

TJSmith said:


> One thing you might think about besides which manufacturer to go with is the size of the curves. 031 might be fine if you have a small layout but it really limits you as far as the types of engines and rolling stock you can use. Most of the scale passenger cars being offered these days require at least 054 if not larger.
> 
> If possible consider at least 042 or larger since those diameters will afford you the opportunity to run a lot bigger engine. I have 042 and 054 on my layout but wish I could have used 072 on the outside loop since it would have allowed me to run some of the bigger steam engines being offered.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


I can appreciate your reasoning, but I am limited by space, and O-31 works quite well for my needs. I am happy with what I can run on the 031 curves. For example, I have an MTH BNSF SD70ACE that handles O-31 quite well. The bottom line is that I really just want to play with trains, and I want to share them with my grandsons and some friends. I will do some scenery, but I am not into all the modeling, and Scale Sized trains.

So I am down to trying to decide on switches ant track. I would like to go with gargraves track, but they don't have O-31 curves, nor switches. They start at O-32 curves, and O-42 switches. I have considered atlas, but they go from O-27 curves to O-36 curves and switches.

That leave Ross that has everything that I need. They have O-31 curves sections, and O-31 switches. Oh, and BTW there switches are almost $20 less than Lionel Fastrack switches. The other thing about Ross is the impeded trackbed that they make for all there track and switches. I may use some Atlass straight track as Ross makes track bed for it, but when you get right down to it, from what I see on there pages, the Ross straight track is actually less expensive that Atlas.

Ross 10" straight - $5.99
Atlas 10" straight - $6.75
Ross 29" straight - $12.99 (45 cents/inch)
Atlas 40" straight - $25.50 (64 cents/inch)

That is unless I am reading there price sheets wrong, which might be the case.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

*Your ZW-C*

Hey there John,

Just an update to let you know that I still plan to purchase your ZW-C controller. I have not seen any PH-180s for sale other than I did see a complete ZW and two PH-180 set, all laid out in the box for $285, at this link below. I also saw another one of these sets for $350.

*Just curious, what is the difference between the ZW and the ZW-C?*
That looks like are really good deal. with two PH-180's and all.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-3293...544918?hash=item1c60e28f96:g:IUcAAOSw--1Wsnal

Oh yes, I did see the PH-180's for sale at Active Powersports,for $83 plus shipping, at this next link below. I emailed them to find out if they actually have them, and am awaiting their response. Everyone else that list them says they are backordered.

http://www.activepowersports.com/li...transformer/?gclid=COWu_L249coCFQJZhgodG_0OSQ

I will keep looking, and one will show up, and Lionel my actually start providing them, by themselves again soon.

Roger

Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No implied obligation Roger, if you find a better deal, take it!  The bricks are hard to find, the eBay find looks pretty good to me.


----------

