# SD70Ace Demo



## gerard488 (Mar 10, 2013)

I have ordered a MTH sd70ace demo unit #GM73 on Ebay and I would like to change the shell to something with a roadname.. 
Is there any other make of shell that would fit? Where would I find a shell?
Thanks in advance


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

gerard488 said:


> Where would I find a shell?


Same place you got the loco.


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## gerard488 (Mar 10, 2013)

I contacted MTH about buying another shell and herte is the reply:


Dear Mr. Quirk:

Thank you for the email below.

If you are not familiar with MTH's shell policy. Shells are a required 
exchange part. This means that if you need to replace a shell you would 
need to send us your defective shell first before a replacement shell could 
be purchased and sent to you providing we had the shell available. Shells 
need to be the same (coming in/going out).

It appears from your email below you we looking to purchase a shell without 
an exchange. If this correct the answer would be no.

If we can be of any further assistance, please let us know.

Have a nice day!

Midge
Parts Department


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Well, there's your answer.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

If someone could help me to understand why MTH will not sell an individual shell....
Just make something up if you want to


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I should think they are trying to protect their brand. Don't really know much about them except they look like premium make.I imagine shells are quite cheap so without control there's nothing to stop some unscrupulous person buying them, fitting a inferior/cheap mechanism and selling it as genuine.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

OK yes I guess I can see it from that perspective.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Cycleops said:


> I imagine shells are quite cheap so without control there's nothing to stop some unscrupulous person buying them, fitting a inferior/cheap mechanism and selling it as genuine


Even if that were to happen, I fail to see why MTH would be concerned.....someone could buy an MTH loco new and complete, and do the same thing (for whatever reason....they aren't going to make much money doing that), and MTH wouldn't know......


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Honestly I would think MTH would be happy to sell parts. It's also called "customer service". MTH sells me a shell and I'm happy. You think they were peeved that the loco was sold off ebay?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

You would think that a sale is a sale.....once they sold a loco, and made their mark-up on it, why would they care what happened to that loco after that? 

I agree, they should be interested in supplying parts, but they don't seem to be......imagine if car manufacturers did that.....:goofball:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Let me start by saying that, although it might not always appear so to the outsider, these decisions are not designed to annoy us. Companies don't make decisions -- in spite of the odd Americanism of referring to corporate entities in the singular. Compare to British usage: Americans say, "the company is...", Brits say "the company are..." I know you folks north of the border follow British spelling, but usage? Anyway, I digress -- companies are made up of people, who make decisions. These decisions are made in good faith, for what the decision-maker perceives are good reasons or good judgment. Not being a mind reader, I can't tell what those reasons may have been.

Cycleops said "protecting the brand." That doesn't mean profits. They want to make sure that every loco out there advertised as an MTH loco really is one, so that they don't get a reputation for making garbage if someone else uses inferior after-market parts under an MTH shell. 

It sounds to me like they're fine with selling parts, as in parts to replace broken ones. They probably won't sell you a shell because they want you to buy another loco, rather than just swapping shells. Yeah, that's more money for them, but it also helps with market analysis -- you only have to track whole loco sales, not locos and shells individually, to see what people are buying.

And the other reason: just like car makers, they want you to buy your stock new, from them, not a retread off of the Internet. So yes, all else being equal, they would prefer that you not buy off of eBay.

It can't be proved, but it passes the common sense test when you think about it a bit.

That said.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

I think it's just another idea out of MTH as a new way of doing things. Of course, it will flop just like their stupid DCS idea did. Did they really think a crowd of any size would dump all their DCC locos and equipment and transition to a limited market of DCS locos and controllers?


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## gerard488 (Mar 10, 2013)

When the loco shows up, I will try an athearn shell and post the results.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

CTValley, I can appreciate your thoughts concerning MTH policy - but afraid I wouldn't describe it as common sense 

From my perspective as a customer and modeler, I admire the products MTH puts out (in reality they are way out of my price range) but for the sake of my point: I would love ALL model manufacturers to sell me parts. Not just so I can fix something that breaks, but for any kitbash project I might dream up. 
I understand there are economic reasons that isn't possible in many cases - but actually having the part available, yet requiring me to send in a similar part for exchange purposes doesn't make sense to ME the CUSTOMER (caps for emphasis, not shouting!)


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> Even if that were to happen, I fail to see why MTH would be concerned.....someone could buy an MTH loco new and complete, and do the same thing (for whatever reason....they aren't going to make much money doing that), and MTH wouldn't know......


They are concerned because someone buying a cobbled together loco and discovered it ran like s**t would soon be taking to the forums like this to give MTH a bad name.



Old_Hobo said:


> I agree, they should be interested in supplying parts, but they don't seem to be......imagine if car manufacturers did that.....:goofball:


Remember when crooks took two written off crashed cars, cut them in half and welded the two good bits together? That didn't do anybody much good, let alone the poor goofball that bought it!


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## gerard488 (Mar 10, 2013)

I checked with athearn and they will sell shells. From now on, I will stick with Athearn.
Does anyone know if Kato, Atlas or any others will sell just a shell?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JNXT 7707 said:


> CTValley, I can appreciate your thoughts concerning MTH policy - but afraid I wouldn't describe it as common sense
> 
> From my perspective as a customer and modeler, I admire the products MTH puts out (in reality they are way out of my price range) but for the sake of my point: I would love ALL model manufacturers to sell me parts. Not just so I can fix something that breaks, but for any kitbash project I might dream up.
> I understand there are economic reasons that isn't possible in many cases - but actually having the part available, yet requiring me to send in a similar part for exchange purposes doesn't make sense to ME the CUSTOMER (caps for emphasis, not shouting!)


Then you didn't understand what I meant. Their decision made sense to them, and (postulating good decision-making on their part) they believed that the potential downside for their customers was more than offset by the positive effect they hoped to achieve.

Also, as I stated above, they appear to be happy to sell you spare parts for the purpose of repairing your locomotive. It does not sound to me like the turn-in policy applies to all parts. What they are NOT willing to do is sell you the one part that might make you buy fewer products from them. Why would they sell you a shell when they can sell you the whole locomotive instead? If your shell is broken, they will replace it (upon receipt of the old one), but not otherwise. 

If I take off my "customer is always right" hat, and put on my "best interests of the company hat", I can see many good reasons for their policy.

Having spent most of my career in customer service positions, I can tell you that good organizations listen to their customers. We don't always do what you want, but we listen. The best of us will provide a reasonable explanation for why we do what we do. If you send them a calmly phrased, well argued message, being careful not to imply that they are idiots or arrogant, and you stand a good chance of getting such an answer. Consider your phraseology and word choice carefully. Even good people, when placed on the defensive, get defensive.

So we're a little off topic here, but it's a good discussion. As long as we're not interfering with the OP getting an answer, I'm ok with that. It appears that the OP's decision has been made to vote with his dollars against MTH. That's the right answer, in my book.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Whatever you think of MTHs policy they feel it's right for them, and that's their prerogative. CTValleyRR is right, if you don't like it vote with your debit card.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Just to bring up a classic business school case -- most of you here are old enough to remember the introduction of New Coke in the 1980's. They were trying to reverse market share loss to Pepsi, and developed the new flavor formulation. They extensively taste tested and market tested the new product, and customers and testers overwhelmingly preferred the new flavor to the old.

What Coke failed to anticipate was the intense brand loyalty that Classic Coke (as it was called for a while) held. People wouldn't switch, and actively rebelled against the new flavor (I was one, refusing to buy ANY Coke product, even though I had done an internship with Coke the summer after my high school graduation). Even though Coke sold both New Coke and Classic Coke in parallel for a while, New Coke never caught on and was eventually killed, even though their research showed that taste-wise, it was a more popular product.

The classic case of a company making a bad decision for the right reasons. Funnily enough, the whole episode actually achieved its purpose, allowing Coke to regain market share against Pepsi.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I think that just shows how you can have all the focus groups, customer testing, tasting market research etc etc but you can't make people (in this case drink) what they don't want to.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Cycleops said:


> Whatever you think of MTHs policy they feel it's right for them, and that's their prerogative. CTValleyRR is right, if you don't like it vote with your debit card.


Agreed. Interestingly, that "new Coke" episode was in the back of my mind as we discussed MTH. I'm sure MTH believes it's the best policy for them (for all I know it is) but sometimes even the most carefully thought out marketing decisions are wrong.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Cycleops said:


> They are concerned because someone buying a cobbled together loco and discovered it ran like s**t would soon be taking to the forums like this to give MTH a bad name


I think we were talking about 1 locomotive here, as it was just one person wanting one locomotive shell to replace the demo paint scheme he got with the first one.......not a whole line of locomotives......do you really think doctoring up one locomotive is going to have any kind of impact on their product......no......




Cycleops said:


> Remember when crooks took two written off crashed cars, cut them in half and welded the two good bits together? That didn't do anybody much good, let alone the poor goofball that bought it!


I was talking about an entire car industry, not a couple of crooks.......you're really stretching it when you come up with these oddball scenarios.....


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> I think we were talking about 1 locomotive here, as it was just one person wanting one locomotive shell to replace the demo paint scheme he got with the first one.......not a whole line of locomotives......do you really think doctoring up one locomotive is going to have any kind of impact on their product......no......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's not stretching anything. In a small hobby like this, your company's good name is of paramount importance. Look at all the trouble MRC has had shaking off some of their initial DCC missteps, and the suspicion some people harbor about Bachmann because some of their products are cheap trainset junk.

Besides, what you said about the car industry was that it would be like them not selling spare parts. That's not what this is. More like the dealer won't sell you a new body unless something happens to the old....which is actually more like what they do.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Actually I think the elastic is being stretched waay to far on this one.

MTH makes model locomotives. They have spare shells. They are concerned that selling a shell outright is going to lead to harming their brand. 

Now I do see the point in principle, but in practice? Something tells me that MTH - even if it did sell shells as individual parts - isn't going to be giving them away at cost, they are going to be pricey. What would you consider the odds that a shady individual would buy a load of them, fit them onto some un-MTH chassis and then try to sell them as MTH locos? Unless he also had MTH packaging, he'd be selling them as used (no-box) and therefore at lower prices.

I don't know, I suppose in the end it's good policy on their part  I'm sure not in the industry so it's just speculation on my part


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## gerard488 (Mar 10, 2013)

Athearn sells shells, Can anyone say if it`s hurting sales or image for them?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, no one can really say anything. In point of fact, unless someone from those companies wants to hop on and give us the real reason, we're all just speculating.

JNXT sees the point in principle -- which is all we can do. Whether we agree with that theoretical reason or not, it does make sense from a certain point of view. Another example: at Electric Boat, we go to insane lengths to make sure no water can possibly get into the people tank, because we can't afford even one instance of that happening. Admittedly, this isn't a life or death situation, but isn't it possible MTH feels the same way? They might feel that they can't tolerate even one incident of counterfeiting no matter how unlikely large scale counterfeiting is. Even at a discount, you could make a nice profit for only a fraction of what MTH charges.

And, as I've said before, they want you to buy a new locomotive, not swap shells.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

gerard488 said:


> Athearn sells shells, Can anyone say if it`s hurting sales or image for them?


Now there's a key point! :thumbsup:

Anyway, if MTH is worried about people fiddling with their product, then they're in the wrong business. Model railroading likely has the most kit-bashers, customizers, second-hand sellers, traders, etc, than any other hobby.....if they're worried about any damage to their image, it's likely already been done.....but their refusal to sell parts is a bigger turn-off than any attempt at trying to make them look bad in any other way.....IHMO, of course.....


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm not saying I agree with their policy, just that I can make a logical argument that hangs together from one perspective (theirs). There may be an element of arrogance to their decision-making: just look at their decision to go with a proprietary DCC system.

They'll listen if we vote with our wallets.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

That does tend to be the only way sometimes.......


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## gerard488 (Mar 10, 2013)

Got an answer back from MTH concerning the cost of a replacement shell, They are saying around $100 plus shipping and processing. That is after I return my old shell. They also say this is just for the engine shell and cab, does not include the running boards and pilots which would not be the same colour as the new shell. 
Athearn quoted me somewhere around $86 for a new shell and I get to keep the old one. I guess I will stick with athearn from now on.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

gerard488 said:


> Got an answer back from MTH concerning the cost of a replacement shell, They are saying around $100 plus shipping and processing. That is after I return my old shell. They also say this is just for the engine shell and cab, does not include the running boards and pilots which would not be the same colour as the new shell.
> Athearn quoted me somewhere around $86 for a new shell and I get to keep the old one. I guess I will stick with athearn from now on.


$100 for a shell. Minus the running boards/pilots. Boggles my mind.

THAT is not my slice of the hobby, that's for sure :smilie_daumenneg:

Of course, $86 for a shell - even if I get to keep the old one - isn't my idea of a deal either


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Collecting yogurt pots would certainly be a lot cheaper


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