# American Flyer Water Tower



## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Since the Oil Derrick thread turned into talking about my water tower not bubbling, figured I would start a new thread on this in case any one knows something about this but wasn't reading the derrick thread.

Got it off ebay about 2 years ago now. Cheap, of course, and not bubbling. Checked around at that time for fixes and didn't find a long tube like it has so just left it as lit up.

Got suggestions in other thread to try to fix it. Blower dryer on it didn't help. Thought I would get another bulb and try that and left it on counter to take with me, only the new little kitty decided to play with it (or I assume that is why it is now missing) so now I need to know what bulb to get. It is a screw in bulb. This one.

http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/74-9809-250.pdf


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Yet another reason for me not to get a cat.

Methinks its the bulb.

Since it never worked, and you bought it used, my money is on a new bulb.

Acording Lionel's site, the bulb is 2.25 watts. (I'm sure someone will correct me if needed.)

You could not hold one in your hand if lit up.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Dave Sams said:


> Yet another reason for me not to get a cat.
> 
> Methinks its the bulb.
> 
> ...


I know the bulb lit up, but whether it was dimming and that was the issue I can't say for sure. I always thought the tower never lit up enough, but I did look at the bulb before it got "lost" and it said 14v and I thought numbers 450 or 405 or something like that to help me identify getting one. Checked WalMart and Lowe's and nothing looked like it


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## jwse30 (Jun 30, 2012)

I have the postwar version of that tower (23772) and mine took forever to start bubbling. Once I stuffed a bit of fiberglass insulation around the bulb, the time shortened to about 10 minutes. 

If yours is the older version, I'll try to get the bulb number off mine. If it's the newer version like the PDF you gave a link for, I wouldn't know if it is still the same bulb or not.

The tubes are available, though they're not cheap (around $20 IIRC). The fluid in mine turned yellow, and I thought about buying a new clear one. 

Hope this helps,

J White


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

At 2.25 watts for 12 volts, you could probably use any bulb that is rated at .2A.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Try this

http://m.radioshack.com/radioshack/...Id=2103782&categoryId=&cust_categoryId=&path=

It's not as hot, but you may get some action.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Lionel has the bulb for that water tower. [email protected]

Larry


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

One that's just a bit hotter may even work better.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

ordered the bulb, along with pieces needed for pumping station and bulb isn't fixing the water bubbling issue. Christmas bubble lights should be on the shelf any day now and I can try that route to fix it!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Bummer Karen , hopefully you'll get it to work.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> ordered the bulb, along with pieces needed for pumping station and bulb isn't fixing the water bubbling issue. Christmas bubble lights should be on the shelf any day now and I can try that route to fix it!


Are you saying you received the specifed bulb and it didn't work either?

If so, what is the voltage at the tower? The instructions say the tower operates up to 18 volts. Mine runs fine on 12v, but when I had it on 16v while connected to my trusty 1033, it bubbled too much.

How long did you wait until you gave up? Mine takes several minutes to start bubbling. Not like the Christmas lights which seem to start immediately.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes, I ordered the bulb from Lionel that was specified as the one for this.

It is running off the accessory of the Z1000 and when tested putting out 13 volts at the accessory port. 

Left the power to it for maybe 10 min. I'll try leaving it on longer when I run trains today and see if that helps it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Try boosting the voltage to 15-16 volts and leave it for 10-15 minutes. I had one of the Lionel O-scale oil well ones, and it took a while to get bubbling.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Can't boost power to the accessory port can I?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nope, you'll need to test it with the variable transformer outputs to see if that does the trick.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

If I wire it to the AIU will it be putting out more?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The AIU doesn't output power, it just switches it. It will put out whatever you're feeding it, all that's inside is a relay.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

But its connected to the TIU which is putting out power to the track so therefore it should be more volts, right?

still learning this electrical stuff, give me a break


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Depends on what you're putting into the TIU. 

You should get a simple multimeter so you can measure stuff like this. Here's an excellent one that will work for most anything you'll be doing around the trains, and the AC clamp-on ammeter is really useful.

6 Function Mini Digital Clamp Meter


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I have a multimeter. But I thought it was putting 18 volts to the track


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you have a multimeter, you can check what voltage you have. I don't know what configuration you have, or what transformer you're feeding the TIU with, so I can't see that from here.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

maybe we need to skype 

anyway.... z1000 to TIU. I checked and meter said 18.3


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if that doesn't light the bubbles up, you do indeed have a problem!


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok...so will try hooking it up to the AIU. First thing going into the accessory on the AIU.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You do realize that you have to route the TIU power through the accessory number you're using on the AIU, the TIU voltage doesn't get to the AIU automatically. It's just a switch, power comes in externally, and it doesn't come through the flat cable from the TIU.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

and how do I do that? Is it in that big book?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I found a much easier way to test this! Hooked up the tower to a Z750 sitting here idle. With it cranked up to full power (which meter tested at 17.5), I let it sit for more than 15 min and tower never bubbled. yes, I shook up the tube before hooking it up. I think this means that the chemicals in the tube are no longer functioning. This tube is approx 8 inches and Lionel says not available.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you're right Karen, sounds like you need a new tube. I know that the old bubble lights eventually stop, so I guess anything's possible.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

anybody sees these longer tubes available let me know!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Look around for the old series string bulbs, those are about the right diameter for this accessory.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Look around for the old series string bulbs, those are about the right diameter for this accessory.


You're still thinking bulb will make a difference and not replacing the tube that bubbles?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

My bubbling water tower (K Line) was purchased new in 1988. It still works fine. I don't think the chemical goes bad. 

A photo of the base, bulb, bulb socket and bottom of the tower may give one of us a clue as to what is wrong. 

It is supposed to bubble at 103*.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

For those interested in the old Christmas bubble tubes here,
http://www.oldchristmastreelights.com/bubble_light_identification.htm

Interesting in there is this,
The NOMA Rocket bubble lights were designed by Frank Pettit, who previously had worked for the Lionel Corporation, maker of the famous trains. Mr. Pettit worked for NOMA LITES from 1959 to 1962 as their design director. His designs included color wheels, tree stands, various Christmas decorations such as angels and carolers, and the highly collectible NOMA Rocket Bubble Lights. He also designed the well known Lionel Model 455 Oil Derrick, which used a standard bubble light tube to simulate oil.

The earliest bubble tubes for Christmas lights had a oil mixture, all of them after that had Methylene Chloride in them. I don't know if that is true for newer bubble bulbs produced today. Another name would be Dichloromethane. It is a chlorinated solvent and makes a very good paint remover and cleaner. Though the it is known to cause cancer and is also no good to breathe. I have a couple of big bottles for cleaning in my stock. I don't haul it anymore so when I know of someone getting a load I ask him to get me a bottle. It is banned from entering our yard, even an empty tanker with the placards on is banned. NO CHLORINATED CHEMICALS ALLOWED AT ALL!.
Back in 1999 the chemical was to be banned but they gave the places that had it time to deplete there stock. It is still being produced today, I believe only in Texas. But is still being shipped out to plants today.
Trichloroethylene is being used instead, but they eventually want to ban that too, they want to ban all chlorinated products in the future.

Methylene chloride has a low boiling point like mentioned 102*or 103*. It should not go bad in the sealed tube. If the tube wasn't sealed good the liquid will evaporate real quick. When I use it to clean parts I add another chemical to it so it doesn't dissipate as quickly. 
As with the #455 oil derrick, the bulb has to be real close to the tube, even then it takes a while to get bubbling. I use a blow dryer to speed up the process, once started it should continue to bubble as long as the light bulb is lit. I find that once I get mine bubbling if I turn down the power it just slows the bubbles a little, but it keeps on bubbling. But slow it down too much it will stop.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

so I'm back to square one.... I've tried a new bulb, specifically the one Lionel says is the bulb to put in it, I've tried "more power" (said like Tim in Home Improvement), I've tried shaking it and still no bubbles. I do know I have thrown out and replaced some bubble lights in strings of christmas lights that stopped bubbling yet the light portion was working so it is hard to believe that it doesn't just "stop bubbling"

I'll take some pictures and post.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have a heat gun with a low setting?
You tried the hair dryer right?
Did you enclose the light underneath with tin foil to try to retain the heat under there?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

big ed said:


> Do you have a heat gun with a low setting?
> You tried the hair dryer right?
> Did you enclose the light underneath with tin foil to try to retain the heat under there?


no to heat gun, yes to blow dryer, no to foil because somewhere it said to not melt plastic base. Could try foil though and just watch it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The bulb, I think needs to be closer to the tube.

I also think that there is a cover missing on yours.
The cover would be to keep the heat up in there.

I am not a flyer guy but while searching for your problem I think I saw a picture of the bottom and it had some kind of cover down there.
I will go see if I can find it.
Hold on.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I could make some sort of cover, but it is sitting flat on the board when it is turned on so shouldn't the heat stay in there?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Look at the bulb assembly in the link you listed, see how the bulb plate once screwed down would be? It acts like a cover to keep the heat in. 
http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/74-9809-250.pdf

First I would press on the bulb tab to make it as close to the tube as possible, then take a scrap piece of thin metal and just temporarily set the base down onto the metal.
(cut a tin can if you don't have any metal laying around)

Somehow you have to cover the bulb under there to retain the heat.

I hope you still have the old tube, that should be your problem. 

Press the tab closer and cover it. On my oil derrick it almost has to touch the tube.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> I could make some sort of cover, but it is sitting flat on the board when it is turned on so shouldn't the heat stay in there?


I was thinking that too but it looks like your wires would keep it from retaining all the heat? Is there a slot somewhere so the wires are not interfering with the way it sits?

The arrow, push that tab towards the tube more.
The circle, is that wire broke/bare there? Looks like it?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

What are the two molded holes shown on it? In the middle one on each side?
Is that for mounting it down? 
Maybe some kind of cover attached when you mounted it down?

Like I said, I am not a Flyer collector so I can't look at mine.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

tried bending the bulb to get it closer and it just won't do it. Tried to put some foil around the bulb and all I did was cause sparks to fly. You're probably right that it needs to be closer to heat it up better, but apparently that will take changing how the bulb is sitting in there.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

the one in the instruction manual shows the bulb pointing straight up, this one is sideways


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> tried bending the bulb to get it closer and it just won't do it. Tried to put some foil around the bulb and all I did was cause sparks to fly. You're probably right that it needs to be closer to heat it up better, but apparently that will take changing how the bulb is sitting in there.


You don't put the foil ON the bulb.
But it sparked? It shouldn't spark just because on the foil? 

It looks like the bulb bracket has been bent away from the bulb at one point in it's life.

If you look at the bottom you have four plastic legs on the base that keep the bulb area off the table. It can't sit down flush on the table anyway with the legs.
Maybe that is what the legs are for so the bulb area can't sit down flush so the bulb vents a little? You see what I am talking about? (the legs)?

Where are all the S men, someone should have one so you can compare pictures?

I do think that the bulb needs to be closer.

Does that one wire i circled have a break?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Now we're getting somewhere!

On my tower, the bulb is much closer, it is almost touching the tube. 

The wire looks like it is in the way. Perhaps needle nose pliers will help.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> the one in the instruction manual shows the bulb pointing straight up, this one is sideways


You sound like a parrot repeating my questions. 

Did you read what I said in the prior post?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Looking at instructions the bulb assembly is on a small square piece that fits on the bottom piece that attaches and this one isn't like that on the bottom, the bulb is sideways and just a metal holder, no "bottom". the 2 holes on the sides are for mounting. IT does have a plate on the base saying American Flyer. I am betting this is an older model. Maybe my son will have an idea for changing the bulb mount to get it closer to the tube


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well........I got to log off, a big electrical, rain/wind storm is coming. :smokin:


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

wire not broken, just how it was sitting to take picture. You're replying while I'm replying and I didnt' see your replies while I was replying


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> wire not broken, just how it was sitting to take picture. You're replying while I'm replying and I didnt' see your replies while I was replying


Yes Polly. 

I said this an hour ago,


Look at the bulb assembly in the link you listed, see how the bulb plate once screwed down would be? It acts like a cover to keep the heat in. 
http://www.lionel.com/media/serviced...4-9809-250.pdf

Post 39 here. 

Got to go trees are blowing over now and it looks like the fourth of July.
Don't want to fry the computer.

I got to get my beauty sleep too. 

I think for sure the bulb has to be closer, temporally get a small c clamp or something to get it closer and try that.
I still don't see why it should have sparked with the tin foil?

Ed's gone...............:smokin:


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

tried bending with pliers and now everytime I turn on power it pops the circuit breaker on the transformer so I unplugged it.....so....

I don't know... I give up


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> tried bending with pliers and now everytime I turn on power it pops the circuit breaker on the transformer so I unplugged it.....so....
> 
> I don't know... I give up


It shouldn't do that?









See my arrows,

The blue arrows....I think where the bulb socket sits there should be an insulator washer somewhere. As the one side is ground on the metal bracket I believe that the bulb side should be insulated some how? Or maybe the other side? Somehow one side should be insulated I think, someone please correct me if I am wrong.

The green one....Bring the wire under and up so that the bracket can be bent up towards the tube? Did you rewire that? I think someone did?

The purple arrows.....are the "legs" I was talking about before. They seem to make/force the base to sit up off the center. So the heat can't be retained in the bulb area. Maybe you are missing a cover? Maybe someone will post a picture of the underside of theirs???

The yellow arrow.... this square in the middle? Is that part metal? Or plastic?


The red arrows.....what are these?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

ok..let's see...

I think when I bent the metal piece something is now touching something or whatever to makeit short.

to answer your questions.

under the bulb it is plastic.

blue arrows --If that is ground, maybe it isn't grounding after I tried bending it? I tried to move the wire to the outside of the bulb and I can't do it --perhaps the way it is soddered is not letting me? (did I spell sodder wrong??)

green arrow --see above about moving it. Me rewire???? no way... came just like this.
it was bought on ebay used.

purple ---yes I see the cover in the picture on the instructions, but I am thinking this is an older one that I have and different because the picture shows the bulb sitting up and not sideways and that piece screws in and I see nowhere for screws like it shows for a cover, just the two for mounting it. 

yellow ---square is plastic

red arrows --this are the ends of the legs of the metal pieces that the bubbler is inside and holds the round checkerboard top.

So I am thinking...that if I can get my son to change this metal piece with the bulb so it stands up and re-sodder (spelling??) what you are telling me is the ground wire, then maybe the bulb will be close enough to heat the tube. what ya think???


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Sodder makes more sense but it is spelled solder. 
I think a sodder is someone who makes sod houses.









Blue is the ground, red is where the washer to insulate should be. It keeps the connection (the 2 wires) separate.

The one end on the tab is ground over where the bulb is would be the hot side. When you bent it and it shorted some how the part where the hot is is touching the other part and shorting it out. I can't see under there. Most of the time there is an insulating washer at the bulb, sometimes that will wear out and when it does you get a short. As you do when you bent it.
Is that a rivet holding the metal strip to the base? You might be able to drill it out and put a nut and screw in it's place?

Someone bent the tab up to solder without taking the whole piece off.
If you could re-position the wire behind the bulb and bend that tab so it is closer to the tube I think you have it made.

I have been searching for other 772's but all I get is the upper side, none show the bottom except the one in the manual. And like you said that clearly shows a cover and the bulb is mounted different.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Karen:

Don't give up! We'll get you there!

I took apart my tower this morning.

First, see how I put foil over my bulb. The main purpose was to shield the light from bleeding out under the base of the tower.

Notice the spot light to the left of the tower. It lights up the outside of the tower when the overhead light is off. It creates a nice effect.






The base with the foil removed. You can see how close the 14v light bulb is to the base of the bubbling bulb. 

It may look like the plastic has melted from the bulb heat, but it is glue from assembly.





The bulb is about 1/16" from the red bubbling tube fitting and the tube is about 1/16" from the bottom of the fittiing.





Good luck


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yours is a newer one huh?

Yes Karen see how close the bulb is in his?
Yours should be up there like his somehow.

Dave, yours might be a little too close?
Do I see some melting up there?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

big ed said:


> Yours is a newer one huh?
> 
> 
> Dave, your might be a little too close?
> Do I see some melting up there?


The plastic is melted, but not from the heat of the bulb, but from glue used in assembly.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

dave sams said:


> the plastic is melted, but not from the heat of the bulb, but from glue used in assembly.


oh ok.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I do see how the bulb is closer and I see this as helping/necessary but I don't see a way to get it there without undoing the soldering which I have no idea how to do to put it back together.

I see the foil, but what is the blue under the foil?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> You're still thinking bulb will make a difference and not replacing the tube that bubbles?


Actually, no, I'm thinking the bubble tube for that bulb would be the fix.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> I do see how the bulb is closer and I see this as helping/necessary but I don't see a way to get it there without undoing the soldering which I have no idea how to do to put it back together.
> 
> I see the foil, but what is the blue under the foil?


I think there are 2 ways to bend the bulb bracket.

1. drill out the rivet, bend the bracket and use a small machine bolt/nut to resecure the 
bracket. Or, epoxy the bracked to the base of the tower.

2. put bolt, screw or something to act as a fulcrum between the bracket and base. Then 
push the light bulb socket towards the tube.




The blue is painter's tape

Not the neatest, but it works.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually, no, I'm thinking the bubble tube for that bulb would be the fix.


Lionel doesn't have the bubble tube from the parts list that I got the bulb.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Dave Sams said:


> I think there are 2 ways to bend the bulb bracket.
> 
> 1. drill out the rivet, bend the bracket and use a small machine bolt/nut to resecure the
> bracket. Or, epoxy the bracked to the base of the tower.
> ...


Tried bending it closer and now I have the new problem of it shorting out


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Karen, Karen, Karen

The bottom of the light bulb socket probably looks something like this.







One wire is soldered to the lug which is rivited to the center of the socket, or a wire is soldered to the rivet and has excess insulation stripped off of the wire.

My socket has a fiber washer which may be larger than yours. The fiber washer is the reddish brown part in the last picture. If yours is smaller, the lug is probably in contact with the base of the socket.

Either way, the lug or wire is probably in contact with the bracket which you just bent.

I would first try pushing upwards on the wire that goes to the lug or rivet. It may be all you need.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok..no longer shorting out. I have it pushed as close as this metal bracket is allowing, which may still not be close enough, but the light is brighter so it is closer. Still no bubbling though.

so you have painters tape and then foil or foil and then painters tape?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I put some foil by the bulb away from the socket so not cause sparks and then some duck tape across that. Hooked up for more than 25 min now and no bubbling


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

The foil goes over the bulb, then the blue painter's tape holds the foil to the base.

Be careful not to short out the 2 leads.

Also, you may be capturing a lot of heat. Keep a close watch on the tower.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes! we're bubbling.

going to have to get the foil and tape more secure for sitting on the layout!!

Thank you guys!! Ya'll are awesome!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

:appl:

Watch out for too much heat!


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Still needs some adjustment. I am assuming pushing the foil in more and securing it better. Both times after waiting a while I turned it to check on the foil and then when turning it back it started bubbling. But at least I know it can work!!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> Still needs some adjustment. I am assuming pushing the foil in more and securing it better. Both times after waiting a while I turned it to check on the foil and then when turning it back it started bubbling. But at least I know it can work!!


First make sure the table is level. If it is, try tilting the tower a little. A penny under 2 adjacent feet of the base may do it. 

Or if the table isn't level, level the tower.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

:appl:

After you get it all back to normal the next time you light the bulb use a hair dryer on the tube. It will help to heat it up to the bubbling point.

Like mentioned keep and eye on the heat the bulb puts out to make sure you don't melt the plastic.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

So if I turn it on and let it sit about 10-15 min it isn't bubbling. If I then turn it upside down and back up a couple of times it then starts bubbling. This is easy while it is sitting on the counter for trying to fix it, but once on the layout that isn't going to work too well. any suggestions?

BTW when I turned it off after letting it bubble a while it really isn't that hot inside the foil and tape


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Try the hair dryer to help it heat up.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

every time I want it to bubble??


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It helps, I use my heat gun on low.
The quicker the tube heats up the faster it will bubble.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

nope... apparently it has to be "shaken" up if you want it to bubble. Anyway to get away from having to do this?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I never had to do that, is the tube new?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Have you tried my suggestion in post #71?

At times, mine would sit, then pop and bubble like mad.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes, right now it is sitting here on the counter running on its own transformer so I can play with it. counter is level. Tower just slightly unlevel. 

And shaking it is now not working. It has been on for more than 45 minutes straight, no bubbling and I can't make it bubble either by shaking, turning upside down, etc


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

big ed said:


> I never had to do that, is the tube new?


can't get this tube from Lionel anymore and I haven't seen this taller one any place to get a new one


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Cant' figure out any pattern as to what is making it work. It can sit there for an hour and never bubble or after 10 min I can turn it upside down and back a couple of times and then it starts bubbling. The best I can figure is that the bubble needs to be closer and I am doing that when I turn it back and forth and it sets it off and then doesn't matter? 

After over an hour last night I tried againt to turn it and nothing, then kept playing with it and started working.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Karen, if you ever had bubble lights on a tree, there is a trick to getting the reluctant ones to bubble. Just come over and "flip" them with a finger to shake them up, many times that starts the bubbling.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Karen, if you ever had bubble lights on a tree, there is a trick to getting the reluctant ones to bubble. Just come over and "flip" them with a finger to shake them up, many times that starts the bubbling.



I know... and I have tried all these things, but obviously on a layout picking it up and shaking isn't going to be a real good solution. I also know that even when the light part of the bubble light on the tree is fine, the bubbles will still refuse to bubble which is why I thought that the bubble tube could go "bad" but then everyone says no and I have gotten this one to work a few times now, but apparently not the same way every time so I am at a loss.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Karen -- Here is an American Flyer parts supplier (Port Lines Hobby - Doug Peck) that has the parts you need for this particular item. Please check his website page here....

http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/cgi-bin/shoppl.pl/page=results.html/SID=3170025756/category=Towers

There is a listing for the bulb socket and bracket as well as various fluid tubes. Be sure you get the correct type of fluid tube to replace yours. Mine works fine after being turned on for about 10 minutes. If nothing more, Doug Peck, who owns this hobby parts store, will be happy to assist with any questions you have. He is by far one of the best American Flyer knowledgable persons out there.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Karen -- Here is an American Flyer parts supplier (Port Lines Hobby - Doug Peck) that has the parts you need for this particular item. Please check his website page here....
> 
> http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/cgi-bin/shoppl.pl/page=results.html/SID=3170025756/category=Towers
> 
> There is a listing for the bulb socket and bracket as well as various fluid tubes. Be sure you get the correct type of fluid tube to replace yours. Mine works fine after being turned on for about 10 minutes. If nothing more, Doug Peck, who owns this hobby parts store, will be happy to assist with any questions you have. He is by far one of the best American Flyer knowledgable persons out there.


Don, Karen posted this link for her water tower, http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/74-9809-250.pdf

Though she clearly shows a different light bracket set up on hers.
I thought she might have been wrong but was waiting for a Flyer persons impute.

Now the link she is showing by Lionel is that S scale that they made? Or did they make these in Flyer O scale too?

I think she actually has an older 772, does yours have the same light bulb bracket as hers?

She did say that Lionel does not have the bulb, I am wondering what 772 she really has.

Now Dave showed his and it is different from hers and the one in the link she showed.

First thing I think is needed is to find out exactly what water tower she has?

Are there any reference sites that date the different towers?
Is there a way to tell them apart? I see that the light bulb setup might be one way.
No sense buying parts for the wrong model? :dunno:


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I got the bulb from Lionel, they don't have the bubble tube or didn't a couple of weeks ago.

My son will try to see about soldering this one differently, getting the bulb closer to the tube.

This one has a plate on one side and it says American Flyer, the A,C, Gilbert Co, New Haven CT


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> This one has a plate on one side and it says American Flyer, the A,C, Gilbert Co, New Haven CT


That seems conclusive.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Looking at that website parts list, this one has the checkerboard top but there is no way an 11.5 inch tube will fit. It is amber color and 10 inch would be more the right size.

Also not sure it IS the tube that is the issue since it has worked some now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> I got the bulb from Lionel, they don't have the bubble tube or didn't a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> My son will try to see about soldering this one differently, getting the bulb closer to the tube.
> 
> This one has a plate on one side and it says American Flyer, the A,C, Gilbert Co, New Haven CT


Well then Karen the link you posted is of the Lionel 772, yours is different. And probably older too. From the 60's , 50's?
I thought yours was supposed to be the Lionel one.
That is why the bulb base is different too.
Maybe an Flyer person will have a link for a manual of yours. And maybe they will have some info on ID'ing the years of the different water towers?
Now I wonder what year yours is from?

If it is the Methylene chloride the liquid should not go bad. If the tube is shot and not sealing the liquid in it will disappear very fast. It wouldn't take long to evaporate. But as far as going bad it should hold it's properties. Unless maybe they used an oil in the Flyers tubes? I don't know.:dunno:

I still think your bulb has to be closer to the tube like Dave's is, and the preheating does work. Though I don't think you posted a picture of it after you bent the bulb bracket did you? I will go back and look.
Next time I start my oil derrick I am going to try shaking it first and I won't preheat it to see what happens. 

Edit, no there are no pictures of after you bent it back up, it should be real close to the bubbling tube to work.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

going to try taking the bulb thing off tomorrow when my son is here to resolder it. see what that does.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ideally, the bulb should actually be in contact with the base of the tube, that's how the bubble lights work. In addition, they have flat-top bulbs to maximize the heat transfer to the bubble tube.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ideally, the bulb should actually be in contact with the base of the tube, that's how the bubble lights work. In addition, they have flat-top bulbs to maximize the heat transfer to the bubble tube.


that's what I am going to try to do. Scott's a mechanic, he may come up with a different way to attach the bulb bracket back on there.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I second Big Ed's request for a "post bending" photo. It may show something we are missing.

Also, a photo of the entire tower may help in identifying just what you have.

FYI the light bulb does not touch the tube on my operating tower. It is 1/16" away. However, mine a a K Line and was manufactured when K Line was a separate competing company.

What a long thread for a seemingly simple problem.


I can't wait to start on my 197 Rotary Raday Antenna! I've read it is tempermental. I've had it working great one day, making a racket another and nothing the next.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Here is a great reference link to an American Flyer gallery that posted photos of nearly everything produced.

http://www.thegilbertgallery.org/Accessory Gallery/accessories_buildings6.html

Accoridng to this, the Water Tower in question had various stages during its run, some were made by Colber. However, the one she links from Lionel looks much like the original Flyer #772 produced 1953-1957, according to the Gallery page, and is the same as mine. Also, the Lionel link states the number as #772. I can't believe the coincidence is an accident. I'm sure this is a Lionel remake of the older #772, or she actually has an original Flyer #772.

Mine is packed away, but I'll dig it out and look at the bottom to see if there is any differences. Perhaps even post some photos.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Here's a picture. I painted the building orange, it was white. I have a white roof that just isn't sitting on it right now. The tube is amber so perhaps it was replaced at some point before me.Base is gray plastic. The black derrick part is metal.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Except for the people on the base and orange building, mine is identical. As soon as I get a chance to find it and unpack it, I'll post photos of the bulb and bracket under the base.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

so which one do you think this is? remake or original? And yes, I put the people on it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Here is a great reference link to an American Flyer gallery that posted photos of nearly everything produced.
> 
> http://www.thegilbertgallery.org/Accessory Gallery/accessories_buildings6.html
> 
> ...


Yes the link she provided is for the LIONEL american flyer water tower, it looks like it has a date of 9/02, I guess that is 2002.

Picture of your repaired (rebent) bracket Karen?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Not sure if you can tell anything from this picture, but I didn't want to tilt it since I am trying to see if it will start bubbling without doing that.

Scott read through this and then drilled out the rivet and straightened the bracket and put it on pointing straight at the tube like in that instruction sheet. He soldered something back and then he had it bubble after a bit but I think he may have tilted it back and forth when looking at it underneath. I left it cool back down and then turned it on and after a good while I can see it reacting somewhat in the tube, but not bubbling.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well it looks close enough now from what I can see.

Put some foil back and tape?

See what happens, my derrick takes a while to get going by it self, if I give it some helping heat it starts pretty quick. But my tube is not that long it is shorter.

I think yours is one of the towers that were made in the 50's, Though I could be wrong.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

It's touching the tube now.

Yes, this derrick is the same as the oil derrick but the oil derrick has a short bubble tube which starts bubbling pretty quickly on mine or it did when I tested it after getting it. It's not hooked up on the layout yet.

This one still isn't bubbling. I tried tapping it and gently shaking it a bit and no luck.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I like the men. I think people make a layout come alive. 

It looks like the tower is on a table. Is the voltage the same as what you have on the layout?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hotter bulb?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I see the *easy *button in your one picture. I have a similar sized set of buttons, one is the BS button and the other is the NO button, both are very funny.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

where did you find a NO button?? I would like that one.

I moved it to the counter and using an extra transformer to make it easier to do these pictures and testing. has potential to get more volts than when it is on the layout actually if I turn the throttle all the` way up.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Here are photos of mine.....note the bulb bracket is horizontal in the base. The tube is clear, or I should say the fluid is clear. The bulb is a GE #432. Mine heats up after about 5-10 minutes and the tube fluid bubbles. The bulb doesn't touch the tube bottom but is quite close. Sorry for the 90 degree rotated photo posting.....


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

that looks like mine and that is how the bulb looked before we changed it today. my tube is amber though.

so now where am I? either the fluid can go bad? or the bulb you have is stronger? or? not sure where to go from here


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I would try one idea, and if it didn't work try out the next one. I always start with the cheapest option first. On my oil derrick I did move the bulb closer to the tube. We are routing for you Karen!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> that looks like mine and that is how the bulb looked before we changed it today. my tube is amber though.
> 
> so now where am I? either the fluid can go bad? or the bulb you have is stronger? or? not sure where to go from here


First I would put the tower back where it last worked. If it was on the layout with foil and tape, put it there to eliminate the different power supply and different surface. Perhaps the table top is drawing too much heat away from the tube.

If it won't work at all, I would then order the proper bracket and bulb from the American Flyer source referenced earlier. You may want to order a tube with clear liquid if it is "factory". The light bulb bracket may have been bent when the original tube was replaced.

You had it working once. 

I think there is somethng minor to be tweeked.

When I am stumped, I walk away and do something else for a while. I find I make the same mistake over and over.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

The only time it has ever worked is when being played with on the kitchen counter so no point in hooking back on layout.

On that parts list site there wasn't a clear tube the right length for sale and if chemicals in the sealed tube don't go bad then replacing tube shouldn't fix the problem, there should be something else.

So...I was going to try to find the GE #432 bulb mentioned earlier and try that.

Also trying to find someone with a chemistry background to see if the chemicals could get old and therefore not react the same.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Karen -- Send Doug Peck (owner of Port Lines Hobby) an email about this issue. He has an extensive background in Flyer-related issues and might be able to offer some assistance including obtaining parts....email address below.

[email protected]


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Another person you might consult is Tom Barker who wrote books about repairing Flyer items. He also has an extensive background in these items and might be able to answer the question of what fluid is in your tube....wow, that sounds like it means something else, doesn't it?? Here's Toms email....

[email protected]


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Karen -- Send Doug Peck (owner of Port Lines Hobby) an email about this issue. He has an extensive background in Flyer-related issues and might be able to offer some assistance including obtaining parts....email address below.
> 
> [email protected]


 You read my mind! Just did that as even if I ordered a tube I wasn't sure which one to order. I explained the problem and what has been tried.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Another person you might consult is Tom Barker who wrote books about repairing Flyer items. He also has an extensive background in these items and might be able to answer the question of what fluid is in your tube....wow, that sounds like it means something else, doesn't it?? Here's Toms email....
> 
> [email protected]


I'll wait to hear back from the first one and then try this one if necessary. Will look around for another bulb while I am out (that GE 432 one). Cheap enough to try that as well.


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## RedManBlueState (Jan 9, 2013)

KarenORichmond said:


> where did you find a NO button?? I would like that one.



They have them all at Amazon.com. My kids got me the "polite" NO button. It just says no, nope, no way, and no no no no no. The one I really wanted for the office says stuff like "No F---ing way!" and "F--- NO!!"


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Personally, I like my BS button best. My NO button is the _polite _one, if you can say that. It's still pretty insistent.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

This was Doug's reply:

You MUST use a bulb no higher than 14 volts. A common 18-volt bulb (which looks identical) such as those used in stations and pass. cars will not get hot enough.

Tubes do not go bad, as long as the tiny crystals in the bottom are free to move around as it heats.

I also recommend you wire the tower to its own dedicated small transformer, at full power….even just a cheap 40-50 watt unit is fine, as long as it’s not providing power to anything else.



From our website AF PARTS catalog:



TOWERS
(ID: 288) BUBBLER-TUBE: 11.5" clear for Checkerboard WaterTower. 
$16.00

BULBS
430
(ID: 265) BULB: 0430, 14-volt clear Bubbling towers. 
$0.75


So the 432 is 18 volts, yet it works the one shown on this thread which according to Paul shouldn't work. 

I do see little specks in the tube so some sort of reaction is working/happening. 

And for all this testing since starting this thread, it has been on its on transformer. 

The replacement bulb I got from Lionel was 15volts.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Update:

Got a 14V bulb from Radio Shack today. It has been sitting here for 30 minutes and not bubbling.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

I'll mention that I bought my tower at a Train Show some time back. The bulb was already in it and lit when tested, so I never considered changing it for any reason....even if it is the incorrect one. Since mine bubbles, I certainly don't want to do anything to change that. I also connect it to the fixed voltage post (15V) of the transformer (an AF #12B dual transformer). Don't know what else to tell you except maybe bending the bulb bracket to be more like mine and perhaps investing in another tube for $16 from Doug just to be sure it isn't your current tube??


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I wouldn't change the bulb out either if it's working good! 

I've been testing it with a separate transformer and using the meter to check voltage.

Hadn't bought a new tube simply because everyone kept telling me it can't go bad.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, since I've seen bubble lights go bad after working fine, I suspect the tubes can "go bad". However, I'd use a hotter bulb to see if I could coax it into submission before buying the tube.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

You and I say that but everyone else says they don't go bad and that's what Paul said in the email as well, so I just don't know anymore.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

One thing I noticed is that my lamp appears to be larger in diameter than the one you showed earlier. Is the lamp you're currently using a larger diameter similar to mine? Not sure if that would make a difference, but under the base that extra size allows it to be closer to the bottom of the tube. Since your light bracket is now removable, I would bend the bracket to be shaped like mine to get the bulb as close to the tube bottom as possible, use the correct size (diameter) bulb and if none of that works, consider replacing the fluid tube. That would cover everything and still only cost $16 + shipping.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Yours is turned sideways the way mine use to be and it wouldn't bend close enough so we changed it to be the way the instructions for the newer ones have it. It is touching the tube now. Not sure really about the diameter, I would think it is same.

Guess I could email the other person about it.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Worth a try. He is very knowledgeable...but modest.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I emailed him....stand by


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> You and I say that but everyone else says they don't go bad and that's what Paul said in the email as well, so I just don't know anymore.


Since I've personally seen old bubble lights that gradually lost their "bubble", and swapping the base from a working one didn't help them, I can say with 100% assurance that something happens to them to stop them from bubbling.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I keep thinking that too, but on the few occasions I have been able to get this one to bubble it does bubble well. Just can't figure out what it is that makes it work right on occasion and the same "trick" doesn't help the next time


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I wonder if shaking the *snot* out of it might help?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I wonder if shaking the *snot* out of it might help?


 I'll let you know!!


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

got a return email...here it is..

Karen,


There should be little crystals in the bottom of the tube that initiate the bubbling. Without the crystals, the low boiling point methylene chloride will not make bubbles. Do you have these crystals? If there are very few and they are not big enough, then that is probably your problem. I am suspicious since you said if you turned it upsidedown it worked after a fashion. I suspect that you moved the crystals enough to make the bubbles start.


let me know if I have guessed the right thing.


Best wishes.

Tom


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

As the Methylene Chloride won't go bad I guess the crystals can.
I wonder what the crystals are made of?

I searched for the answer and came up with nothing.

Karen, if the bulb is touching the tube you have to move it away just a hair, so they say.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I searched one more time and found the answer. 
The "crystals" mystery solved, in a search the way you word the question helps immensely.

Many bubble lights, especially the earlier ones, have activator chemicals in the tubes, to help with the bubbling effect. Most of the time, these are either common table salt or sugar crystals, which will not dissolve in the methylene chloride. Sometimes, these activator crystals will have been fused into big lump in the bottom of the bubble tube-this was done on purpose during the manufacturing process. 

In the case of the oil-filled Paramount ring or saucer bubble lights, the crystals are small pieces of pumice, intended to help start the bubbling action and enhance the sparkle of the tiny bubbles that the oil produces. With the Royal brand of bubbling lights, the activator crystals are larger than in most other brands, and the crystals have a tendency to darken as well.

I found this too, it can light by the heat of your hand? I doubt that, not mine!

The bubble tube does not contain water, but is filled with a chemical called methylene chloride. This chemical has a very low boiling point, so even the small amount of heat generated by a tiny light bulb will cause it to boil rapidly. In fact, it will even boil from the heat of your hand!

Karen, is your tube filled to the top? If so it should be good that is if the "crystals" are present.
I would still move the bulb away from the tube so it is not touching it.

By the way the color of the liquid is just that....color. They where made in a bunch of different colors, the colors doesn't affect anything but the color of it.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

didn't think the color had anything to do with it since the Christmas ones come several colors. 

Bulb touching, bulb slightly away... I have heard to do it both ways and honestly have tried both ways as well. 

I most likely will replace the tube, but what bothers me is that when we have gotten it to bubble on a couple of occasions it has bubbled like crazy so obviously it is all reacting properly then. The whole problem is that I have no "steps" to take that make it work every time you go through them or at least most of the times you try it. 

I wrote Tom back asking him a couple of questions. We'll see what he says before I order the new tube and hope there are instructions somewhere on how to replace it


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm guessing that even though I see the crystals he is talking about that there are not enough of them in there anymore to consistently make the bubble action happen. So I guess this means that the tubes can go bad since apparently the crystals needed can break down over time.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Something must have changed, right?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Now I've asked him how hard it is to get the tube out to replace it


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

I have to imagine mine has these crystals as well, but I've never seen them. The only explanation is they are down near the bottom and oscured from view by the base of the light. I'll have to look closer at mine. I'm curious what Tom has to say in his reponse.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

This is his last reply:

The should not float. They need to be at the bottom. If they are too tiny then they will no initiate the bubbling action. 

Sent from my iPhone
Thomas B Barker
Your guide in Gilbert American Flyer Trains, Statistical Experimental Design & Photography


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

New bubble tube arrived. Now how do I get the old one out????


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hammer, the question is, how do you get the new one in! The hammer is a one-way solution.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

yeah, thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My guess is you'll have to twist those tabs on the bottom and remove it to slide the tube out and the new one back in. That appears to be the only way that tube would come out.

Why not test the tube with a bulb outside the unit and make sure you're happy with the bubbling?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I just put it in the oil pumper to test it! Start bubbling after about a minute or so!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Guess the old one was really bad. So now we know, they do go bad!


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

It's probably not the chemical in it, but the crystals that apparently makes it bubble.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good luck on the installation, looking forward to seeing the bubbling tower.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

not going well at all


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Sorry, just catching up with this thread. Let me look at mine and I'll get back here later to see if I can offer something to help. Give me a day or so.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think she got it going, at least I saw a video...


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Yes it's working now. There's a video


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Video is in the american flyer bubbling water tower thread


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, so happy it is bubbling away for you now. I guess the tube was bad after all that. Congrats to your determination and patience.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

It isn't so much the chemical that goes bad as it is the crystals that apparently cause the bubbling. You can see the old one has a lot less in the bottom. Took a bit to get it apart and back together, but it is working!


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