# Needing help once again.



## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Guys, I know what I want to do. But I need some design help!! If anyone out there is willing to trade in designing my layout for a small fee, it'd be superb.
TIA!!!


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## kursplat (Dec 8, 2010)

i think you'll find plenty of people here, happy to help for just the fun of doing it, but you need to post up what you want 

size, scale, type of action and years of operation just to start


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Ive given you advice on other things but cant help with that one. Im old school  and just draw it out on paper, then on the plywood from ideas I already have. After I draw it down on the wood I just start laying track. I also make changes , even the last plan has changed as shown in my pics.

I agree with kursplat, Im sure there is someone here that will draw up a plan for you or give you ideas.
Just tell them exactly what you want.

If I recall......
You still want N scale , Conrail, Norfolk Southern in the 80-90's?
Shelf layout with at least 11" radius at each end? meaning 24" turnaround.
The shelf narrowed down to 12" along wall?


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## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Okay fellers. 
"N" scale. Not much room width but can go vertical. 24 inches X 9 foot. Will be wall mounted. Was thinking about a tiered system. 3 levels, if feasible.
Since this will be based on where I used to live, it's all flat running. Norfolk & Southern & Conrail is all I can remember seeing. So it would be late 80's-mid '90's. Cement plant, Auto salvage, Lumber yard, grain silo, would be main industry. Also small terminal at 1 end. 
Whatelse you need to know??
TIA!!!!


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Well to get 3 levels in that small of a space you will need a helix. As a rule tho each level of a mulit level layout is slightly smaller depth wise than the level below. This helps with visuals and maintenance. I am not an "N" scale expert, I actually struggle a little with that scale since I have limited working knowlege of the interactions of the engines and curves. I know by your table requirements that you will get a max of 11" radius curves on your ends and for your helix and I am going to guess that is going to be a little tight. I will let the experts on N guide your further.

Massey


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## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Massey,
Just to settle my curiosity, with 9' of lenght, why can't I run an incline from 1 level to the next??


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## optronomega (Aug 17, 2011)

agiantfan said:


> Massey,
> Just to settle my curiosity, with 9' of lenght, why can't I run an incline from 1 level to the next??


Grade would be too steep with only 9 feet. You can probably only go up 2 inches or a max 3 in a 9 foot span. Unless your levels are only spaced 2-3 inches then a helix would be a must.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

What Omega said! Not only that but having a 24" depth will make a no-lix really difficult to do and have other things going on as well. I am not saying it cant be done in 9x2 but it will be the dominating factor in the entire layout, not leaving you much else to go with.

Massey


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## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

optronomega said:


> Grade would be too steep with only 9 feet. You can probably only go up 2 inches or a max 3 in a 9 foot span. Unless your levels are only spaced 2-3 inches then a helix would be a must.


With a 2% grade you can get a rise of 2.16 inch on a 9 foot run. A 2% grade is doable in HO scale. Is 2 inch enough for N scale clearance?


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

waltr said:


> With a 2% grade you can get a rise of 2.16 inch on a 9 foot run. A 2% grade is doable in HO scale. Is 2 inch enough for N scale clearance?


For clearance prolly but not enough for anything else underneath which is the purpose of a multideck layout. You are going to need 8-10 inches in N to double deck and more would be better for larger buldings and easier viewing.

Massey


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## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks Guys!!!! How do you build a helix??


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

First you'll need a lot of room!
Check sstlaure's set up that will give you a good idea!
HERE


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

a helix is going to be a corkscrew going round and round until the engine climbs to the needed height. They are not complex to build but they do take some woodworking skills to make them good and reliable.

With N scale you could get away with a helix using 12" radius which will be a little larger than your allotted 24". I know 12x2 is 24 but you have to think that radii is to the centerline of the track which means you are going to have about 1/4 overhang per side which is 1/2 an inch. 25" or 26" would be needed for a 12" helix and if you can the wider the curves in a helix the less incline you will have per loop. 18" would be ideal but you are going to need about 37 or 38" to make that happen. 

Massey


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## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Oh, OK, Got it I think!!


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

NIMT said:


> First you'll need a lot of room!
> Check sstlaure's set up that will give you a good idea!
> HERE


Page 3 & 4 show the helix construction....


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## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Ah now I get it!!!! How much rise per lop??


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Inside a helix you would want to gain enough elevation to cover:

1) NMRA clearance recommendations for your gauge (N is 1 21/32" - call it 1 3/4" for a little extra clearance)
2) Rail and tie height
3) Cork thickness
4) Sub-roadbed thickness (plyboard, etc)

I'll run through an example so you can see how to calculate all of this.

For my HO set-up I had:
1) 3.0" NMRA recommedation for min clearance
2) 0.100" rail height, ~0.100" tie thickness
3) 0.25" thick cork roadbed
4) 0.500" thick plyboard

Total was 3.95" total that each loop would need to gain for 1 track to clear the other....I just rounded to 4" and went with it.

The "Code" of your track tells you the rail height in inches (Code55 is .055" tall), measure the rest and calculate your required height gain.

Distance around a circle is 2*pi*r, where r=radius of curve and pi= 3.14159 (approx)

I went with a 26" radius, so the linear run for 1 loop = 2*3.14159*26=163.4"

Calculate your grade by dividing the rise by the linear run...in my case:

4"/163.4" = 2.44% 

I wouldn't want to go much steeper than this inside a helix as you'll start having reliability and pulling strength issues with longer trains (I'm limited to trains of ~10/11 cars with 1 engine, although I can pull 24 ore cars with a single engine up the helix no problem.)


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## agiantfan (Dec 2, 2011)

Scott,
Thanks for the info!!! Can I branch out? I was thinking of doing 3 levels in total.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Yes you can branch out anywhere you want by using a turnout (curved will allow the helix to continue with out changing the curvature) and making a lead off track with an elevation easement. If you make a double helix only the outside track should have a turnout for leaving early, or else you would have to cross the rails of the inside to the outside and that could cause collisions if not careful. 

Massey


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