# Lionel Flying Yankee #616



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I won a Lionel Flying Yankee #616 with, 3- # 617 coach cars & 1- 618 observation car.
These sets came with 2 # 617's, an extra was included in the sale.:thumbsup:
It needs a little work, but it runs fine though the seller says it might slip a little on dirty track with the extra car attached.
My track is all apart trying to set up the extension over by my Rock so I couldn't pull the whole train yet.
I ran the motor out of the shell it runs fine forward and backwards. I got to clean and oil her up yet. One of the wheels looks a little funny and it has to be the one with the gear attached. I will get a picture of it later. I might even have a match in my junk box.

For those who don't know my Rock here, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5314



These pictures are from the sale I did not take them. I just got the cars and they do look a little better then these pictures.
I think this is from 1936 or 1937 those sets are the same from some research I did, does anyone know how to tell if it is a 616-E or a 616-W?
Mine are chrome bodies and the locomotive is gunmetal as is the back of the observation car. The skirts are black.
I don't know if all of these came together or they are pieced from different sets.
I know one of the vestibules is different as is the one extra coach car.

Anyone have a Flying Yankee? $235 good deal? Needs new widows but has all the name plates and handrails. Windows are going to be hard to find, maybe I will attempt to make some up. Some rust on the chrome have to research what I can do. Like I said the pictures make it look worse than it really is. 
The cab will clean up fine with a new coat of paint. Notice the stacks most I see are raised a little more? They sell new stack plates they are riveted on I wonder why my stacks are set so low? It seems as you can't move them any?

More later I got things to do but wanted to start this thread going, these are not my pictures.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Cool ed, I almost bid on one of those last week! Don't know about the Crome. The rest will paint up nice. I'm curious on how it runs on the track. I wast sure how smooth it would be in turns, that's why I didn't bid on one. For me it's a curiosity.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

I have the same set. Was my dad's as a boy. Mine's in better shape, but I made the uninformed mistake of using steel wool on the "chrome" parts of the cars. Didn't take long to figure out it was a mistake.

Isn't the 616W the unit with the whistle? Mine has it and it is easily visible when looking in the "butt" end of the engine. It also makes the engine weigh a ton.

The Flying Yankee has given me many good memories and now its making memories for my grandkids. 

:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ColtsKurt said:


> I have the same set. Was my dad's as a boy. Mine's in better shape, but I made the uninformed mistake of using steel wool on the "chrome" parts of the cars. Didn't take long to figure out it was a mistake.
> 
> Isn't the 616W the unit with the whistle? Mine has it and it is easily visible when looking in the "butt" end of the engine. It also makes the engine weigh a ton.
> 
> ...


Yes after I wrote that I saw that was what is is, W= whistle. Duh me. 
I guess E= E-unit?
Yes steel wool is a no no on chrome, for light rust try a piece of aluminum foil. Dip in water and rub lightly it won't scratch the surface.
(Easier then writing a copy and paste)

This process yields two advantages. First, since the aluminum foil is softer than steel, it will not scratch the surface. And second, a by product of the process produces a fine metal polishing compound that smooths the chrome surface to a bright shine.
Cleaning Rust is basically oxidized metal or another words metal that has taken on extra oxygen atoms. As heat is generated by the friction of rubbing the aluminum foil on the chrome, a portion of the aluminum will oxidize to produce aluminum oxide. Aluminum has a higher reduction potential (i.e a tendency take on electrons and in the process reduce or break itself down) than the chrome, and will therefore leech oxygen atoms away from any rust on the chrome surface which changes the chemical properties of the rust and breaks it down.
Polishing Aluminum oxide is harder than steel, and the microscopic grains of aluminum oxide produced during the cleaning process creates a fine metal polishing compound which, mixed with the water you added, creates a paste that smooths and polishes the chrome surface.

You think yours are better then the ones I have?
I have a vision. 
All mine needs is a little TLC, OK maybe a lot of TLC. 

Tell me Kurt does your stacks look like they would pull off? See mine? All I see are taller then mine and the stack plate is riveted on they do sell replacements. Are your stacks metal? I was thinking that maybe somehow a plastic stack fits over the stubs I have and I am missing those?
See the 8th or 9th picture above.
It almost looks like someone might have cut mine?
Strange.

Took the locomotive apart,


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I wonder how chrome paint would look?
I have been looking at different chroming processes.
Maybe bring them to a plating shop? My buddy used to run a big plating shop but he passed away years ago. He would have done it for free! (RIP John)
I would have to fill in the corrosion pit marks somehow?

Maybe paint them? CNJ Blue Comet blue? CNJ green and yellow? CNJ orange and blue? 
Make it a CNJ Flying Yankee?


It would be one of a kind, the hell with destroying the value.:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

After a little searching I found this in an old CTT magazine. 
I will add it here in case someone wants to try and ID the year of theirs.
Though if you look at the descriptions it is kind of hard for certain years.

Lionel Flying Yankee's.
Build Dates, Identification.

1935
Set # 267-E or 267-W
1-616 (E or W) Power Car.
2-617 Coaches.
1-618 Observation Car.
Train entirely chrome plated, except for the top casting of the power car which was painted black.
Shown in the catalog with 4 door coaches and fluted bodies. Some un-fluted and 2 door trains have turned up. 

Uncatalogued Set.
3 units; 616E, 617,618. Un-fluted 
Painted satin aluminum color, with a red or black casting.


1936

Set # 267E or 267W
Same as the 1935 cataloged set.
Bodies chrome plated and came fluted or un- fluted. 
2 door coaches.
Nose, tail, & vestibule skirts were painted gunmetal.

Uncatalogued Sets.
3 units; Fluted. Painted aluminum, with a light red top casting.
Aluminum or black vestibule skirts.
4 units; Most likely fluted. Chrome plated. Light red nose, tail, and vestibules.

1937

Set #267-E or 267-W
Same consist as 1936 cataloged set.
Fluted , chrome plated body.
Gunmetal nose and tail.
Vestibule skirts gunmetal or black.

1938

Set # 267-E or 267-W.
Same as 1937 cataloged set.
Vestibule skirts black.

1939

Set # 267 or 267W.
Same as the 1938 cataloged set.
"E" designation dropped on non-whistling set numbers.

1940
Set # 267 or 267W
Same consist as the 1939 cataloged set.

1941
Same as consist as the 1940 cataloged set.
All trains came with whistles.

The Lionel Flying Yankee was slated to be produced in 1942 as the "Victory Streamliner" but the war time restrictions on raw materials forced the project to be abandoned.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Not sure ed but isn't one side of the aluminum foil better to use then the other? I think I remember something like that. Also for your plastic windows, I thought someone here posted a way to polish them up. Maybe ask on the build fourm, I think it was an ho guy. I should have written it down.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Not sure ed but isn't one side of the aluminum foil better to use then the other? I think I remember something like that. Also for your plastic windows, I thought someone here posted a way to polish them up. Maybe ask on the build fourm, I think it was an ho guy. I should have written it down.


I was thinking that same thing when I was rubbing. Next car I will try both sides and see if there is a difference. I used the shiny side a little.
I should have flipped it to the other side but I had stuff to do and it slipped my mind, I think I might have been using the wrong side.

It is said to use coke cola instead of water. I didn't try that.
O or OO steel wool will work on REAL chrome, but chrome plate or chromed plastic it will scratch the hell out of it.

I can't find any reference on as to what side to use.

Brasso is said to work good too, I don't have any of that.

After you do the aluminum rub it is important to polish it with a protector also, or else it will rust with contact from water or humidity.

Anyway you look at it, my parts are pitted, so maybe some filler and chrome paint would work?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Very nice find there Ed, congrats! :appl:

I am sticking to rubbing and polishing compounds for cleaning. I cleaned up some badly corroded chrome stanchions. The polish was too fine but the rubbing compound cleaned it up. Get to cleaning, with luck a genie may pop out with all that rubbing.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> Very nice find there Ed, congrats! :appl:
> 
> I am sticking to rubbing and polishing compounds for cleaning. I cleaned up some badly corroded chrome stanchions. The polish was too fine but the rubbing compound cleaned it up. Get to cleaning, with luck a genie may pop out with all that rubbing.


For now that is what I am going to do just try to clean them up the best I can.
I will have to paint the cab, that needs it.

I was polishing up the observation car and the back end came loose.
You know how the tabs hold things together? Well the tabs holding the back end to the body was held on by one paper clip, see picture. All the tabs are gone!
I upgraded it to 4 smaller paper clips, it works pretty good. 
And you can't see them.
But I sent the seller a message saying it would have been nice to disclose that in the description. He listed as "from my personal collection and I used to run them on my layout." He must have knew it. He probably did the fix too.

See what was holding it on? The chrome section still has 3 tabs but the observation part has none. You can't see them in this picture. I sent this to him showing the clip that held it on. I think the bottom truck piece which is held in place by 1 screw and 2 tabs into slots is from a different model also as 1 of the tabs doesn't line up with the slots on the body.
But all in all it doesn't look bad back together, I will take a picture.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Back together, I can see just a little spot along the seam.
Next time I have it apart I think I can straighten it out.

The truck on these is held on by 1 screw. Then the front of the truck has 2 tabs that insert into the chrome body. Then it has 2 tabs that line up the body to the truck.
It is one of those that does not line up with the slots. It must be a different truck from a different train?

All the scratches you see are not from me, I guess at one point someone tried to clean these up with either steel wool or an abrasive cleaner.


Without flash









With flash.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

I didn't say mine was _better_, but its in better condition as they sit, and, well… it was my father's. (He was born in '28)

My set is in storage right now, but soon to come out. I'll check on the stacks and advise.

That tip to use aluminum foil to polish looks like a great way to go! Unreal how nice that turned out! Can't wait to get mine out and try that.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ColtsKurt said:


> I didn't say mine was _better_, but its in better condition as they sit, and, well… it was my father's. (He was born in '28)
> 
> My set is in storage right now, but soon to come out. I'll check on the stacks and advise.
> 
> That tip to use aluminum foil to polish looks like a great way to go! Unreal how nice that turned out! Can't wait to get mine out and try that.


From what I see of yours they are better. 
I really didn't give the foil a good try, I might end up shooting them with chrome spray paint. I did try a little polish and elbow grease.

I don't have a whistle, if you look at the first picture I took of the locomotive apart you can see a lead weight that is mounted in the coach section.
I wonder if you have that weight too?

The seller called me up but I was sleeping already.
The old (young) lady talked to him and she said he sounded like a nice guy and he said he never had them apart and did not know it was held together with a paper clip.
He did mention to her that he thought he had another observation car.

Maybe he will send me another?

To tell you the truth I added 4 smaller paperclips and it does work well in place of the original tabs.
Maybe if whoever did it had put 2 paper clips in no one would have noticed, unless they took it apart.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

Hey Ed, check this one for sale on eBay, now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-TRAI...603890?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d48a30d72

Check the stacks… this is what mine is like….


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## amer/flyer (Jan 11, 2014)

*showing*

How old are they, they show potential.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

amer/flyer said:


> How old are they, they show potential.


Either 1935 or 36 I think.
So almost 80 years old.

If it wasn't for some pit marks they would clean up fairly nice.
Though the painted parts do need paint and one of the vestibules is not chrome the other three are.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ColtsKurt said:


> Hey Ed, check this one for sale on eBay, now.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-TRAI...603890?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d48a30d72
> 
> Check the stacks… this is what mine is like….


I am watching every 616 on e bay.
Just to see what they go for, if you look close at that one it has a bunch of corrosion too.

I watch that seller a lot and their prices are always high. That price is almost double what I got mine for. And I got an extra 617, and just maybe my seller will feel guilty enough to send me another observation car. 
I see all the stacks are longer that is why I asked, do....you....think....they....come....off?
Are they separate from the stack plate? 
If not I guess someone cut mine down for some reason?


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

I have absolutely no idea if they come off. I leave taking these things apart to those that know what they're doing! I'd be afraid I'd break something or pull a wire loose...

I had the engine rewired about 15 yrs ago, then realized it had a whistle and had "my guy" get that working. I was the second to ever hear it. Everett was the first (he fixed it). There was no whistle control and the transformer didn't have one like the KWs have... thats how I know we were the only to EVER hear it. Simply awesome.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

This one is nice and has the set box plus the other boxes, watch what it goes for.
I would think it will bring a nice buck.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Excellent-Lionel-Pre-War-Set-267W-Flying-Yankee-Streamliner-/221360046951


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

This one too should get a nice buck.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prewar-Lionel-O-Gauge-No-616W-Flying-Yankee-Streamliner-Set-/201027250639


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## amer/flyer (Jan 11, 2014)

I would keep them and fix them both up, not sell them.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Nice set up you gots there Big Ed. That's one I'd love to stumble on at a garage sale or such. I love to tinker and bring things back, so I rarely looks for "pristine", besides I usually run what I own. No shelf queens here.



ColtsKurt said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-TRAI...603890?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d48a30d72


That seller is always high dollar in. I usually chuckle a bit and keep scrolling. I do admit most of their items are nice, but not in my price plan, aka as cheap as possible 

Carl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't sell anything. 

Definitely going to clean them up somehow.
The somehow is still being thought about.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

I've had my dad's boyhood set for years. Then, as the grandkids came, realized that I had to pass _two_ sets down, so I've stayed with the same era. All my stuff is 600 series prewar. (well, I have a 259E loco and 1689W pulling the 600's and the Flying Yankee set.) Have some really well-preserved accessories too.

I'm not a seller. I'm about adding to what gets handed down.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, how about alien green?


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## amer/flyer (Jan 11, 2014)

I suggest, teal and silver, ( saw it on a youtube) I think that is the color. Alien green is good too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Ed, how about alien green?



The locomotive does sort of have an alien look to it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

amer/flyer said:


> I suggest, teal and silver, ( saw it on a youtube) I think that is the color. Alien green is good too.


Lionel did make an all Blue Comet Flying Yankee. I think, not sure.


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## amer/flyer (Jan 11, 2014)

Agree , lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, 2 votes alien green. 1 vote blue comet blue.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, if you're interested I know of a place to get chrome plating done up by me. Someone I work used to deal with them. You'll cut out the middle man as most places send there stuff to them to get done. I have no clue what it will cost but I'm thinking of doing an engine and tender.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

big ed said:


> Lionel did make an all Blue Comet Flying Yankee. I think, not sure.


I've seen the gunmetal and chrome, yellow and brown, light blue and chrome, all light blue and one all chrome.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ColtsKurt said:


> I've seen the gunmetal and chrome, yellow and brown, light blue and chrome, all light blue and one all chrome.


The yellow and brown was not a Budd built Zephyr but it was the first streamliner to run on Americas RR's.
The UP M- 10000 is considered the Pioneer Zephyr but was built by Pullman standards.

Is this the brown and yellow your thinking about?








I never saw the Budd built streamliners in a brown and yellow.

The model Lionel Zephyr's built also came in red and aluminum paint on the cars. 
The all chrome came with painted vestibule skirts. And I think that the all chrome had a black top. I don't think that the top was ever chrome.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Ed, if you're interested I know of a place to get chrome plating done up by me. Someone I work used to deal with them. You'll cut out the middle man as most places send there stuff to them to get done. I have no clue what it will cost but I'm thinking of doing an engine and tender.


Find out the cost.
I have to decide on what I am doing yet.

My buddy's old place was took over by someone else, maybe I will stop in an inquire about how much it would cost.
Though a can of chrome paint would be cheaper. 
Some of the chrome paint looks like the real thing too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The first to model the Zephyr's was a company called Western Coil trains and American Flyer. Lionel at the time was busy making their Union Pacific M-10000 model and would not become involved with the Zephyr train until 1935.

Western Coil primary business was making high quality electrical equipment and supplies. At the time they were selling a line of wooden ties, extruded aluminum rails, and indivisional spikes. This was known as the true track system.
It was also producing other electrical devices that could be used for automatic trains control and devices to activate most trackside accessories at the time. 
The Zephyr was it's first train to be built by them.
American Flyer began planning a model of the Burlington Zephyr in the fall of 1932 about the same time as the Budd designers were planning the prototype. 

There were a lot of changes to the prototype and neither train made by these companies were exact duplicate's of the real train.
Both of these companies were given the original plans to the Budd Zephyrs and both thought they had the exclusive rights to the model. This created a few problems too.
Plus they kept changing the plans and they had a hard time keeping up with the changes.

Westerns Coil only sold around a hundred trains that is why they are scarce today.

Western Coil,

Note, the Western Coil had paper diaphragms between the cars. 

Edited,
In 1978, 40 years after the fact, train collector Antonio Consoli bought out the entire train tooling and inventory of Western Coil.
Lock, stock, core boxes and display cases. That was the only way he could get parts he needed for a Zephyr model he had recently bought.
He also produced these trains in limited quantities as a service to fellow collectors.
So just maybe if you ever come across one it might be from his productions. 













American Flyer,


Note, The American Flyers were not an articulated car, they had set wheels on the bodies though they tried to simulate a articulated look. They were afraid about possible patent infringements on the articulation.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

Wow… blown away by the guy with massive amounts of knowledge… (Good thing!)

I just saw a brown and yellow one at a local show once. Wasn't a fan. I like the chrome paired with gunmetal or color. Just personal preference. As far as other makers than Lionel, not into that. Just have focused on the Lionel prewar to keep things consistent. 

As mentioned earlier, just trying to put together two sets for future equal/similar hand-me-down capabilities to my kids/grandkids. Don't have the time right now to deal with the restoration process, so I just buy what is visually in good condition. If something needs repair to properly operate, I call my guy Everett.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ColtsKurt said:


> Wow… blown away by the guy with massive amounts of knowledge… (Good thing!)
> 
> I just saw a brown and yellow one at a local show once. Wasn't a fan. I like the chrome paired with gunmetal or color. Just personal preference. As far as other makers than Lionel, not into that. Just have focused on the Lionel prewar to keep things consistent.
> 
> As mentioned earlier, just trying to put together two sets for future equal/similar hand-me-down capabilities to my kids/grandkids. Don't have the time right now to deal with the restoration process, so I just buy what is visually in good condition. If something needs repair to properly operate, I call my guy Everett.


I am just adding a little history on the train as I find it to the thread.
I never heard of Western Coils Zephyr.

I am not done adding yet. 

As I am sitting here trying to polish as much of the corrosion as I can I am thinking maybe I should have waited and spent a little more on one in better condition?
I think I may have to try chrome paint not sure yet.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, beat up stuff is cool also. Not everything has to be perfect. Think of it as pre weathered.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

More like pre corroded, then pre weathered.

I am going to paint the engine cab and the back of the observation car for sure.
I don't think it will look good with those painted and the rest just polished corrosion.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5cneCgNA9U

Some inspiration. Maybe!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Flying Yankee Restoration Group.

Check out this groups site, it has some pictures and history on the old gal.
http://www.flyingyankee.com/history.html


Thanks for the inspiration SJM. 
That helped me a lot.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

A list of the American Flyer's built.

American Flyer cast aluminum Zephyr sets.

1934

Set # 9900-R or 9900-RT
1-9910 Power Car (manual reverse)
1-9911 Combine
1-9912 Observation
Set 9900 did not come with a transformer.

1935

Set # 1323-RT
1-9910 Power Car (manual reverse)
1-9911 Combine
1-9913 Coach
1-9912 Observation 

Set # 1327-RCT
1-9914 Power Car (automatic reverse)
1-9911 Combine (with built in whistle)
2-9913 Coaches
1-9912 Observation


1936

Set # 1760-RW
1-9914 Power Car ( with automatic reverse)
1-9911 Combine (with built in whistle)
2-9913 Coaches
1-9912 Observation
Set came with a special four rail track to operate the whistle.

1937

Set # 1761
Same consists as 1936, but without a built in whistle & special four rail track.

1938

Set #14
Same set as 1937

For our Flyer friends. :smokin:


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