# My Mogul has returned. Warning might include negative comments that could harm



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

It's back and as you can see in the video, the results are less than perfect. All the same symptoms are still there plus it has a motor whine, and to top it off my engine now has an identity crises, it thinks it's a Santa Fe engine. What happened to my Rutland sounds????:rippedhand:

On one note after putting it into warp speed the motor sounds are have lessen but the jerkiness is still there. I removed the bottom plate to see if there's any lube, added some and noticed the axle gear is not centered. Would it help to center it? Who knows but I think I've had enough. So this will be the last post on this engine. I promise.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:









On another f*%#m another Mogul owner had the same review: jerky, with a whine.:laugh: I am serious.


Sorry you had to go through all this, broken handrails, weird whine, and the topper is removing the Rutland sounds. Gone from bad to worse.:thumbsdown:

Too late for a refund?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Gary, I would contact Lionel and tell them about the sound board. Thats the one from the Hybrid SF mikado. They should swap it out for you no charge and also have them send some stanchions. The stanchions have an angled base. Straight ones will put a bend in the handrail. Not sure you can glue if they are delrin.
It wouldn't hurt to center the worm gear on the axle. I would draw it into center though that would require some tiny c clamps or support the gear and tap down on the axle.
They are easy to take apart. Remove the two pickup rollers, then the six screws holding the frame base in place. Be careful if you remove the rear drivers as there are a pair of springs under the bearings. Also there should be tiny bushings inside the front rods that may drop out. It sounds like these may have been missing when you first received it. Lionel has no more of these. BTW it appears they also replaced the rods with the TMCC ones which were not blackened.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Why would they change the sounds??? That’s the part I don’t get, why would they mess with the tender at all. I’m befuddled


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Why couldn't they fix these at Lionel in the first place? Thats what has me befuddled.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Gary, I just caught your entire video over on the other place and was jumping over here to comment. So sorry to hear you've received one of the Moguls that didn't come back from the factory to your satisfaction. As soon as I heard the Railsounds for 322, I was thinking... WTF???  I knew those Moguls shouldn't have had ANY roadname/roadnumber-specific Crewtalk/Towercom to begin with. So that sent up a yellow flag for me right there. Then to hear the engine whine? Ughhhh..... 

After all this time... if that's the best Lionel can do, I'd say you're most definitely into the "my experience has been ruined" zone with this one, with no joy to be had. And I'd politely ask Lionel for a refund. I wouldn't waste any further time on this lemon -- but that's me.

This oughta scare the livin' bejesus out of folks who were thinking of pre-ordering more stuff this year. This locomotive alone is the poster-child for "wait-to-see-what-Lionel-delivers", THEN purchase if you can test and evaluate THE locomotive you'll be bringing home with you. Ouch!!! 

David


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

What does Lionel charge for an engine with problems like these?

I haven't had an O gauge train since I was eight or so.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Bummer, I would opt for the refund.

Bill


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Ugh... Sorry to hear Gary.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Sorry Gary. 

After all this time, it should be perfect. No excuses for the sound, I hope they make it right for you.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Long as I get my money back I'm cool. I tried and it didn't work out. If you check my Youtube page and find the mogul video I did in 2017. Compare the sounds.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

A Geez. 

Thanks for the objective, fact-based information superwarp1, and I am sorry that you had such problems. 

I try to stay positive, but it's difficult sometimes, like now.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Gary - Please keep us in the loop on the resolution.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's wild they swapped the sound boards, that makes absolutely no sense!


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

I heard the whine but sorry I couldn't tell if engine was jerking due to camera constantly moving. sorry to here still not as you'd hoped for.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just got off the phone with Lionel. I don't get a refund as in cash in my hand. I'll get store credit of equal amount. Makes me wonder if I even want to bother??

Sorry my son did the video, the jerking is improved but not gone.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Does that mean you are stuck with the wrong sound board or have to pay to have it exchanged?
Why would anyone even consider buying Lionel now?
I wonder how many of these only had a missing bushing to begin with?

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Just got off the phone with Lionel. I don't get a refund as in cash in my hand. I'll get store credit of equal amount. Makes me wonder if I even want to bother??
> ....



WOW!!!! Just when I was gonna take Lee up on his "suggestion" that we ease up on comments about Lionel management.... Lee, I gotta tell ya man, they just don't make it easy!!!  And decisions like this are PRECISELY why they've earned such disdain from those of us who "call things as we see them". 

What a bunch of buffoons!!! This is NOT how Lionel handled the product-wide problem they had with the Legacy Pennsy S-2 Turbine several years ago. I purchased mine from Charlie Ro. And after reports surfaced of moisture getting into the foam packaging (i.e., even my instruction guide had rusty staples!!!), I was instructed to send my locomotive (and receipt) back to Lionel... and within 30 days, I received a check for what I had paid Charlie.


David


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lee, I gotta tell ya man, they just don't make it easy!!!
> 
> 
> David


Yes, I must admit. It's like they are trying to commit suicide.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I do have to return the engine on their dime.

Update, I sent the video to Dave O, and he's floored over the sound swap. Going to bring up the ladder. Hope he doesn't fall. This is not over yet, stay tuned.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Business 101 - You learn a lot about a company seeing how they handle a crisis.

Lionel Mogul - Fail

Sorry Gary.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

superwarp1 said:


> Just got off the phone with Lionel. I don't get a refund as in cash in my hand. I'll get store credit of equal amount. Makes me wonder if I even want to bother??
> 
> Sorry my son did the video, the jerking is improved but not gone.


At this point one wonders if using the credit will just bring more woes and frustration.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> I do have to return the engine on their dime.
> 
> Update, I sent the video to Dave O, and he's floored over the sound swap. Going to bring up the ladder. Hope he doesn't fall. This is not over yet, stay tuned.


That's the sound board from the SF Brass Hybrid Mike!


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Wow, yesterday Lee writes a great piece and vows not to say anything, especially about management unless it is factual. Today Lionel presents you with this.

If this were a book, it would be in the fictional/believe it or not section. Our case studies in the MBA program were not this wild.

Dave will get you straight most likely but what if you didn’t’t know Dave? Most people do not.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Bill Webb said:


> Dave will get you straight most likely but what if you didn’t’t know Dave? Most people do not.


That is my biggest concern with this issue. What about all the Moguls out there that are not correct?

Those of us on forums will know better than to buy one in the secondary market, but what about all the others.

The correct action would have been to bring them all back. 

Not corrected to Dave's standards.

Not a refund, a credit.

Form your own opinion.


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

empire builder said:


> I heard the whine but sorry I couldn't tell if engine was jerking due to camera constantly moving. sorry to here still not as you'd hoped for.


I'm with E B on this. 
I saw the broken parts, I heard the whine, I heard the stupid ATSF crew talk, BUT, even going back over and over where you said it was, I have yet to see the jerk. It even sounded like it never missed a beat. 
I hope you find some satisfaction!


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2019)

*"Just got off the phone with Lionel. I don't get a refund as in cash in my hand. I'll get store credit of equal amount. Makes me wonder if I even want to bother??"*

I would not accept the proposed resolution. Two years from purchase and to fail to resolve deserves an immediate refund, not a store credit. 

Go above Dave (with all due respect to him trying to help you) and call or e-mail the top guy and introduce the words "lawyer" and "damages" and you have every intent to join with others who were also injured. Add up all of the value of those who purchased this engine and we are talking big bucks. Return the engine immediately and then take action. Time to throw the kid gloves in the trash.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I will say this has certainly not been handled in the most appropriate way.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Gary, I do like your warning in the title. made me grin.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Fabforrest said:


> Gary, I do like your warning in the title. made me grin.


Me, too!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> Me, too!


Glad everyone is taking it Lightheartedly.

Now Dean wants to look at the engine. So either refund or repair it’s going back this week. I think they want to know how the hybrid SF sounds got in it.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2019)

Gary, you have more patience than I would under the circumstances, but I admire you for your persistence. I know it is a B&M, and on the surface, a nice looking engine. 

Sure hope they make it right for you.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Gary, you have more patience than I would under the circumstances, but I admire you for your persistence. I know it is a B&M, and on the surface, a nice looking engine.
> 
> Sure hope they make it right for you.


I have experience, I used to coach girls softball:hah:


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

superwarp1 said:


> Now Dean wants to look at the engine. So either refund or repair it’s going back this week. I think they want to know how the hybrid SF sounds got in it.


I feel like I'm living this experience through you Gary. 

Now I don't know Dean, or if he has hair, but I bet those sounds in there will make him pull a few out!

Hang in the pardner!!


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

I'd have went straight for the lawyer People always react well to threats.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

Wow! It's hard to be positive when it's taken this long to fix your engine and comes back screwed up again especially with the wrong sound file. I thought my experience with Lionel was bad several years ago with my S3 but the problems you are having to experience with Lionel leaves me in Wow state! I was lucky to have Jon Z. reach out to me back then and fix my S3. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Glad everyone is taking it Lightheartedly.
> 
> Now Dean wants to look at the engine. So either refund or repair it’s going back this week. I think they want to know how the hybrid SF sounds got in it.


As Engineer Montgomery Scott said in one of the Star Trek movies (referring to the new flagship Excelsior he "sabotaged" ), "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!!!" 







In all seriousness though... I'm thinking that somehow during the "upgrade" the factory might have compromised your original sound card. And somehow they inadvertently installed the Santa Fe hybrid card as a replacement. Who knows how these cards are identified?  Only the factory worker(s) 8,000 miles away know the real deal.

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

That clip is the best part of that movie. Thanks for sharing.

As for the engine, it's going back to Lionel, if Dean can fix it great, if not refund. One thing Dean told me is every engine was checked and he didn't hear any whine in any of the engines but mine has a noise, one on OGR has a grinding noise. So what were they looking at?


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## DMASSO (Jul 25, 2015)

Good luck.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Hope it works out GARY.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

A fella on OGR fixed his by tilting the motor slightly for better gear engagement. Maybe a pattern is starting to show. Poor gear engagement due to sloppy tolerances of the motor mount and some had missing bushings on the front rods.
These seemingly small issues could have caused the symptoms reported.
I would still like to get my hands on one that has issues but never returned to Lionel. I see some dealers are still selling them but I am not about to pay 600 bucks or so to satisfy my curiosity.

If only Dave would tell us what he had found wrong.

Pete


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

IMHO they owe you a FULL CASH refund. Not credit.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> ....
> I would still like to get my hands on one that has issues but never returned to Lionel. I see some dealers are still selling them but I am not about to pay 600 bucks or so to satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> ...


I've noticed Charlie Ro has had a B&M Mogul on their website for quite some time now at $590. Can't imagine that went to China for the fix though, since it's been for-sale the whole time. I wonder how that one runs? 

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> Glad everyone is taking it Lightheartedly.
> 
> Now Dean wants to look at the engine. So either refund or repair it’s going back this week. I think they want to know how the hybrid SF sounds got in it.


It's obvious how those sounds got into it, somehow they swapped tender shells with the wrong tender. Either that or they, for reasons I can't fathom, had the tender sound board out and put the wrong one in! They sure didn't jump in there on their own!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> A fella on OGR fixed his by tilting the motor slightly for better gear engagement. Maybe a pattern is starting to show. Poor gear engagement due to sloppy tolerances of the motor mount and some had missing bushings on the front rods.
> These seemingly small issues could have caused the symptoms reported.
> I would still like to get my hands on one that has issues but never returned to Lionel. I see some dealers are still selling them but I am not about to pay 600 bucks or so to satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> ...


Dave states he doesn't know what the factory did to improve the performance. I check how well mine meshed, axle gear to the worm gear. And there was a little play, not overly tight, not overly loose. Other than my axle gear not being centered.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> As Engineer Montgomery Scott said in one of the Star Trek movies (referring to the new flagship Excelsior he "sabotaged" ), "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!!!"
> ...
> 
> David


I just used that quote the other day on my speaker building forum. A newbie there wanted know what was wrong with his boom box build (ground loop whine and 70 volt shock). Given his design, it was most apropos.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's obvious how those sounds got into it, somehow they swapped tender shells with the wrong tender. Either that or they, for reasons I can't fathom, had the tender sound board out and put the wrong one in! They sure didn't jump in there on their own!


John, Likely the latter. The Railsounds lite board in Gary's engine is from the Brass Santa Fe Hybrid Mikado. Begs the question why the tender was opened up at all.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Maybe they thought there was another motor in there fighting with the locomotive?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Maybe they thought there was another motor in there fighting with the locomotive?


A schizophrenic loco :laugh:


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

Gary, I would be happy with a credit since I would want to replace the Mogul with another engine, but... Is the credit they are offering good only at their store? Do they charge full MSRP? Will they give you a credit for the MSRP or the discounted price you actually paid? Can you use the credit at Charles Ro? If you are taking a loss with the credit then it wouldn't be acceptable IMHO.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

In the near future some poor sap is going to get his Lionel Santa Fe locomotive back with a Rutland sound board. 

So there, things have a way of evening out for everybody.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

The situation begs the question - are you guys confident that you are receiving the actual engine (and tender) you sent in?

Could an ambitious hobbyist swapped sounds - and you got their tender?


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

:gotooprah:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Roving Sign said:


> The situation begs the question - are you guys confident that you are receiving the actual engine (and tender) you sent in?


Probably not at all certain, I'm sure they just set the whole bunch on the bench and have at them.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Didn't Lionel add ID Labels to all their higher end engines?? Not sure about the tenders.


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## Lionel 2026 Jenny (Jun 3, 2018)

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed watching this video, with the sounds. We had Chessie system where I grew up but my grandpa worked in the pits as a machinist for Norfolk/Southern at the roundhouse in Salem, Va. I have his hat that he always wore turned around backwards, and also have his work journal that he kept track of daily jobs, which is very interesting. Most of the steam locomotives were gone by the time I came along but I remember seeing a few running on the tracks from time to time. My brother got the train set when we were kids - with a Lionel Milwaukee Road, and every time I smell that wonderful electrical scent of toy trains, it takes me back. Now, I finally got an O scale locomotive of my own and have learned how to solder, so am going to rebuild the e unit (utube!!). I also enjoyed looking at your layout. Anyway, thanks for posting it.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Your welcome. Glad to do it. As for the engine, it went back today. I stated on the RA that if it can’t be fixed and store credit was the only option, just send it back. Better to have the little guy on my layout as store credit does nothing for me.


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