# HELP needed, whistling Tender problem



## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I acquired this tender on the ever so famous Ebay, it looks pristine, but didnt whistle, I would press the Whistle button and I could hear what I think is the relay but the motor doesnt come on, so I opened it up and found a loose wire. I believe the wire goes from the relay to the motor, but where is my question

below is the offending Tender and the wire is in front of it









I am competant with the soldering iron but dont want to fry it by wiring it incorrctly so I think trial and error isnt a good ploy, anyone repaired a tender and know the wire locations? I believe it is a 6026W Tender

Thanks in advance for any help, I know you are a knowledgeable lot and I have a lot to learn


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

TRY this thread.

I am on the run with no time to explain.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I believe that gives me a good start, if I am looking at things right, there are two solder points on the top side of the relay one to the copper plate that is attached to the side of the relay and the other is energized when the relay closes, a smaller copper plate that moves under the first copper plate and makes contact with it once the relay closes. I looked closer to the motor and saw a bit of wire sticking out from the solder point that is on the lug that goes to the brush closest to the relay, the other brush is attached via another lug to the pickup rollers on the trucks. Now if that isnt confusing :laugh: the explanation not the hookup

Now, when I hit the whistle button, the armature moves about a 1/16th of a turn and hums IT seems to spin easily by using a screwdriver to spin the impeller on bottom of the shaft. So now I need to figure out why the motor isnt working.

The odd thing is, when I got it in the mail yesterday afternoon I placed it on the track and it did whistle although reluctantly and there was a rattle like the impeller was hitting something, the reason I started messing with it, it kind of worked. I will get it going, but I think it isnt going to be one of those easier than it looks jobs, which so far most of my Lionel repairs have been, Usually clean the contacts and a light lubrication and away they go, revived three Marx engines that way two days ago, talk about dried up oil and carbon.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

J,

This link should help, too ... detailed old Lionel spec info on whistles. Click on each little page to view as an individual pdf.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=708

Power goes from the track center rail, rhrough a pickup roller, to one of the motor's brush cans. From there, it splits off to power the relay solenoid, too. When the relay is closed (via your whistle controller), power into the first brush can goes into the armature, out the other brush can, through the field coil, then through your relay switch and to the tender frame ground (and out to the outer rail). Check continuity throughout.

I could be a wiring issue, or it could be a mechanical issue. Either way, I'd suggest you pulll the brush plate holder off, and clean the brushes and springs, and armature face, too. The lttle rectangular box at the top of the impeller pivot is "wadding" for an oil reserve. Put a couple of drops of 5W-20 or 5W-30 motor oil in there.

Regards,

TJ


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I am printing those pages as I type. I am sure that it is something stupid, but one learns by doing stupid things, the bigger the headache the better the lesson is learned. Thanks so much for the help, one can Google but still not find simple information. I think I still have the wiring messed up, but will sort it out soon I am sure.
Bought a nice new Locomotive but I wanted a whistling tender for it ( I know that is silly, but there was a real pretty one on Ebay and I gave in to the urge and bought it ) It looks nice behind the engine and will sound good too real soon I hope.

Thanks again it is so very appreciated.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I hope I am not being a pest
here is what I currently have








For a trial I hooked up the wire that was loose to the wire from the coil and the motor would hum, get warm but not much else
Am I missing a place for the loose wire to connect to? 

Thanks again for any help


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

As I said above, power goes into one brush can, through the spinning armature, and out through the other brush can (the one on the right in your photo above). From there, it goes through the short wire into one side of the copper field coil. On the other side (outlet) of the copper field coil, there should be a wire that runs to the underside of the contact point that's turned on/off with the wobbly metal plate below the relay solenoid. I think you're missing that wire.

The wobby relay plate completes the circuit, such that the power exiting your field coil (through the missing wire) can find its way back to the car's frame ground, and then to the wheels and outer rails.

Hope that helps,

TJ


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Ah, in other words, and I was thinking this should be so, there should be another wire extending from the coil. Must be broken off I guess. I fear that another motor is the solution then, maybe a junk Tender will show up on the bay of E in the near future. I looked up the price for one online and the part WS-175 is $40, more than I can spend at the moment.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

J,

If you look closely, you might get lucky and find where the "outlet" wire on the coil broke off. If so, solder a new jumper lead back to that.

You might (???) be able to unwind that last loop of coil to help you out. Maybe.

Before you jump into surgery, poke around with an alligator-clip test lead wire ... one end to the coil (hunting for the broken wire point), and the other to the bottom of the relay. Add other jumper wires to bring power to/from the car (as if it were on the track), and see if you can get the whistle motor running. (You'll have to force the wobbly relay plate closed with a soft shim). Hunt around with the first alligator lead to see if you can find the "magic spot" on the coil.

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I reviewed the progress and dragged in a picture. The brown wire from the coil to the relay is missing. The isolated leads on the relay are important I just can't make them out so I hope the diagram helps. TJ had the right idea on undoing a loop. Don't forget to strip off the lacquer for a good connection. A sharp knife will do it.












With power on the new connection and the opposite brush with the coil the motor should run. So connection to coil ,coil to brush, other brush to connection and run.

Also the black wires come from the center rollers RIGHT? Since the truck wheels are the common.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

jreid said:


> I hope I am not being a pest
> here is what I currently have
> 
> 
> ...



Your not being a pest.
Great pictures, nice thread.:thumbsup:
There aren't too many threads in here on whistle tender repair.
Thanks for posting, 
I am sure others (and me) are learning from the thread.

Did you find any numbers stamped on the frame? Inside the shell?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, whistle motor repair is very similar to repairing a locomotive AC motor, they're basically the same. That motor looks a lot like the ones that are in a bunch of small Lionel powered units.

I agree with TJ, you're clearly missing that wire from the coil, but there's no reason to spend $30-40 until you see if you can find that end and solder the missing wire in.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Inside the Tender shell 6026 was stamped so I am sure it is a 6026W Tender. The whole thing is, there is no way to get at the other wire, broken off where it can not be found, I paid a low price for a beautiful looking Tender and it was worth the price paid for a non whistling tender. The armature is shiny like new and the brushes show no wear at all, so I have some good spare parts. I will find a replacement motor for this one and fix it eventually, I learned a bit too and that is worth something also. Wish me luck as there is a whistle motor on Ebay ending today, I might luck out and win the auction. Once I do find a replacement motor I will post some more pictures.
Ebay is both a blessing and a curse, those of us who live far from any hobby shops can find used train goodies, but at the same time, each time it is a roll of the dice, you never know if what you bought is any good till you get it. I sure have found some great bargains and sadly have sold some things that made someone else a great bargain too so in the long run I cant really complain. You win some you lose some and in this case I think I win no matter the outcome as I said it was a low enough price for a spotless Tender that even without the whistle it was a bargain.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, there certainly is a way to get to the wire if you want to, I've rewound the field coils on several motors that got smoked, it's really not that hard and just takes a little time.

You might find someone that has just the field part for cheap, since you have a good armature.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

big ed said:


> Your not being a pest.
> Great pictures, nice thread.:thumbsup:
> There aren't too many threads in here on whistle tender repair.
> Thanks for posting,
> ...


I agree. I ended up with a 6466WX tender in one of the collections I bought. Someone had apparently opened it up and tried to fix something but there was just a jumble of parts by the time it got to me. Seeing these pictures gives me some idea of what the innards *should* look like.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Good news, I won the auction for the whistle, I will mess with the original once I have the replacement installed. I think one would need to remove the impeller and the plastic bottom plate and armature before unwinding the coil could be attempted.

On a side note, I notice that newer tenders that operate with the impeller and whistle box have an electronic circuit instead of the relay, I would think that would last longer as relays do wear out in time.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Once I install the replacement parts, and test it, I will take another picture before sealing it up, showing all of the connections in place. I am still a kid at heart and have to admit that it is a lot of fun to be able to blow the whistle from time to time as the train circles the track.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Hmmm, I was bidding on a whistle yesterday too. Hope we weren't competing against each other. I lost at the last second!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Don't forget to oil the bottom bearing of the motor.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I did a snipe, entered my bid at 5 seconds to go, sorry if I walked on your bid, the seller has another listed, plus I noticed some of the newer style, circuit board as opposed to a relay are listed. I wonder if that might have been wiser.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-New-parts-air-whistling-/330571536760?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4cf7995978

Looks identical to the whistle in my Hogwarts Express Tender whose whistle works when other Lionel Locos are running with it. The whistle looks to be the same size as the one I had.


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## LarryG (Feb 28, 2011)

Thanks to all of you, I can't wait to get home and try to get my tender to whistle. The photos and info has me motivated.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Without another picture, there are two contacts on the relay, and two wires coming out of the coil on the motor, one goes to the relay and the other goes the the brush can, The other wire on the relay goes to the other brush can where it is connected to the two wires coming from the center pickups on the trucks. I a few days, when I get my whistle, I will post another well labeled photo.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I think if you hook a wire from the relay to the terminal connected to the pickup rollers, you are going to be disappointed in the result. The moving relay contact is connected to the frame of the relay which is connected to the frame of the tender. Look at your first picture. There are two wires coming from the pickup rollers that are attached to the right hand brush can. The other brush can is connected to the field coil. The other wire of the field coil (which is missing and broken off) should be connected to the fixed contact of the relay. The circuit is completed when the relay operates and connects the moving contact connects the fixed contact to the frame of the relay which is mounted on the frame of the tender. 
Bruce Baker


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I am easily confused, but if I look at the first picture which is how it looked when I opened the Tender up, no mods or anything, the two pickup wires and one wire that went to the relay were all connected to the lug which is attached to the one brush can. Am I mistaken?

Trying to learn here, was the Tender wrongly wired by someone before me?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The wiring in the picture is correct. The wire that goes from the pickup rollers to the relay goes to the relay coil to operate the relay. The other end of the relay coil is connected to the frame of the relay and is thereby connected to the frame of the tender and then to the wheels and the outside rail. 

BB


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you inspect the motor field coil carefully, you can probably find the end of the wire that is broken off. If you can find it, you may be able to repair the coil. If it were mine, I might take a shot at repairing it just for the challenge.
BB


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It should be possible to rewind the field coil without taking the motor completely apart. If you remove the brush plate to get it out of the way, you should have enough room to work. Unsolder the wire from the field coil to the brush terminal, and remove any solder blobs from the end of the wire. Unwind the end of the wire from the fiber board where it is threaded through some holes, Then unwind the wire from the field coil until you can find the broken end. You shouldn't need to unwind all of the wire to find the broken end. When you find the broken end, see if you can solder a short piece of wire onto it and cover the joint with heat shrink. Then carefully wind the wire back onto the coil.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

And, as T-Man noted, you'll have to sand off the lacquer on the end of the coil wire for 3/8" or so before you can solder on a new connecting lead. (It looks like bare copper, but it isn't.)

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

To supplement the conversation above, here are two wiring diagrams from the Lionel manuals ... both consistent with each other, and with comments and T-Man's sketch above. The first diagram is more literal, the second a bit more schematic ...










TJ


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

Yep, I think we were both saying the same thing, but it came across differently. The wire in the coil is coated so that it doesnt short out against itself. I tried some, but was not successful in finding the end of that wire, it will be one of those bored stiff and too much snow to do anything else projects.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

All wired up and whistling, dont know if this helps or not, but here is the completed project all that is left is to put the shell back on and haul some freight.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

So that's the replacement motor mounted on the frame?

You should really try to get the original coil lead fixed at some point.

Glad to hear you can hear the whistle!

TJ


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