# LionChief Plus 2.0



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Another version of the Lion Chief command systems is in the offering. Supposedly you will be able to use the TMCC system to operate these locos. 

No locos in this catalog with the 2.0 system that interests me but maybe in the next catalog.

Bill


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2019)

It's getting more expensive but the locos have more features. I am very interested in the New York Central FT AA set. I just bought a Nickel Plate Berkshire with Bluetooth last year so I won't be parting with any of the elusive sponduitz for a new one even though they have a number of desirable enhancements.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Is this adding to the confusion for the average hobbyist??

Most are aware of Conventional operation. Then add, Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus, Lion Chief Plus 2.0, TMCC and Legacy.

Then there's the whole MTH side of the equation. It has to be confusing for the average hobbyist understanding what works with what.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lionchief 2.0 sounds like TMCC with Bluetooth. No handheld included.

Pete


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I noticed that the LC+ features are listed in the comparison table, but there are no LC+ locos in the catalog. I wonder if they are going to discontinue LC+. I have only one LC+ loco and I only got it because it was an incredibly low price. I like it for the price I paid. Since I run DCS, I don’t think I would get an LC+2 loco at any price.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I have been expecting since LC+ was introduced that Lonel would slowly evolve all its control system capabilities - conventional, TMCC_Legacy, LC+, into one. Just makes sense. This is a step.

And yes, the remote is not included, but this is something new, beyond TMCC with Bluetooth, because you can use the universal LC+ remote. 

No idea if having no LC+ locos in the catalog means anything or not. I suspect maybe Lionel intends to offer LC+, only with the universal remote as an option, on all top -end (i.e., previous just "Legacy," locos. That would fit what I think might have been a reluctance on Lionel management part to bring out more scale LC+ steamers that would compete against the Legacy locos, which still having the more modern two-way radio communcations, less-up-front cost and preparation option for those that want it rather than Legacy. 

It is a good move in my opinion, although not nearly as good as just fixing all the quality problems would have been.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think LC+ just bit the dust and LC+ 2.0 jumped in. I'm guessing that Lionel may have simply dispensed with the older version of LC+. One positive is the full RailSounds on the LC+ 2.0 will give you better sound, that will be nice.

Of course, Lee is correct! Fixing all the lousy quality coming out of the Chinese factories would be a much more desirable project!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> And yes, the remote is not included, but this is something new, beyond TMCC with Bluetooth, because you can use the universal LC+ remote.


OK. I read the features on page 76 again. Since there is no comma after Bluetooth, I read “operate with Bluetooth using universal remote” as one (not two) ways to operate an LC+2. But that doesn’t make sense because I don’t think the universal remote uses Bluetooth. So I won’t rule out an LC+2 if I see one I like at a great price.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Lehigh74 said:


> OK. I read the features on page 76 again. Since there is no comma after Bluetooth, I read “operate with Bluetooth using universal remote” as one (not two) ways to operate an LC+2. But that doesn’t make sense because I don’t think the universal remote uses Bluetooth. So I won’t rule out an LC+2 if I see one I like at a great price.


Interesting observation. 

I think the defining moment for Lione;'s executive was when they brought out the LC+ version of the scale SD60 a couple of years ago now. It was scale, same body as Legacy, but cheaper, and with a remote, very controllable. I have two observations:
1) It was sort of an LC 1.5, in that the speed was much more controllable than on previous LC+ locos, which had something like 12 to 16 speed steps you could select - detents in the wheel that you could feel, with not difference in speed if you forced the wheel in between. The SD60s had what seemed to be a smooth continuous speed selection, a definite improvement.
2) The SD60s were in only one catalog and never shown again. I think Lionel realized they would cut into Legacy sales a lot. Now, if they have scale LC+ locos in the future, they will essentially be priced as Legacy were. Problem solved. 

But the last, let's see . . . its been 12 locos since I have bought a Lionel, the whole dozen are all MTH Premier, and I'm very happy with them - all are fantastic. I may not buy another - just have to wait and see about the quality issue.


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## Mooner (Jun 20, 2018)

I have a couple of Legacy engines but no LionChief products to date. I thought about getting the LionChief Plus North Pole Central Pacific when it first came out, but hesitated and haven't seen it anywhere. This time, I'm going to put in a pre-order for the North Pole Central Berkshire LC+ 2.0 as my first LC engine. I like the NPC color scheme, Railsounds, and the fact that you can run this with the Legacy Cab remote in addition to Bluetooth app.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lehigh74 said:


> OK. I read the features on page 76 again. Since there is no comma after Bluetooth, I read “operate with Bluetooth using universal remote” as one (not two) ways to operate an LC+2. But that doesn’t make sense because I don’t think the universal remote uses Bluetooth. So I won’t rule out an LC+2 if I see one I like at a great price.


I believe the Universal remote does actually have Bluetooth.

Here's the official FCC report on their testing of the BT capability of the Universal Remote.

https://fccid.io/LIV-LCUNIVREM/Test-Report/Bluetooth-Test-Report-3149257

Here's the base page for the remote: https://fccid.io/LIV-LCUNIVREM


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Pretty sure this was alluded to between the lines with Howard's now infamous ERR letter last year.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

So where does LC+2.0 fall short vs Legacy? 

One of the Legacy features I like is the cruise control, I see the LC+2.0 listed as speed control. Difference?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

Jeff T said:


> So where does LC+2.0 fall short vs Legacy?
> 
> One of the Legacy features I like is the cruise control, I see the LC+2.0 listed as speed control. Difference?


Cruise control and speed control are the same thing. The main difference that I see is that LC+ 2.0 locos are traditional size and Legacy locos are scale size and legacy locos have more details. My feeling is that LC+ 2.0 will be equivalent to Railking and Legacy to Premier. The electronics will be the same or have very little difference. Of course, I'm speculating based on what I see and I could be wrong.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Country Joe said:


> Cruise control and speed control are the same thing. The main difference that I see is that LC+ 2.0 locos are traditional size and Legacy locos are scale size and legacy locos have more details. My feeling is that LC+ 2.0 will be equivalent to Railking and Legacy to Premier. The electronics will be the same or have very little difference. Of course, I'm speculating based on what I see and I could be wrong.


The LC+ A5, Camelback, and SD60 were all scale size. Lionel flirted with scale LC+ locos to that extent but backed down apparently, as I said earlier, I think because LC+ sales would cut into sales of the more expensive Legacy models. That wa a disappointment to me, and frankly, where and when and why i started to have my initial doubts that I would stay "a Lionel Man." That type of thinking is what ultimately kills both customer loyalty and a company's sales.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Country Joe said:


> Cruise control and speed control are the same thing. The main difference that I see is that LC+ 2.0 locos are traditional size and Legacy locos are scale size and legacy locos have more details. My feeling is that LC+ 2.0 will be equivalent to Railking and Legacy to Premier. The electronics will be the same or have very little difference. Of course, I'm speculating based on what I see and I could be wrong.


I may have to get one and find out! No pre-order though!

Thanks Joe!!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Sounds like the 2.0 system is a new version of TMCC that can be activated with Bluetooth.

Bill


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

It's possibly just another interface. So my under the hood question is whether the Bluetooth is carrying the tmcc or legacy command codes as defined in their lcs docs. In which case it may well be the limits on features is at the controller not the engine receiver end of things ...


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

Lee Willis said:


> The LC+ A5, Camelback, and SD60 were all scale size. Lionel flirted with scale LC+ locos to that extent but backed down apparently, as I said earlier, I think because LC+ sales would cut into sales of the more expensive Legacy models. That wa a disappointment to me, and frankly, where and when and why i started to have my initial doubts that I would stay "a Lionel Man." That type of thinking is what ultimately kills both customer loyalty and a company's sales.


You are right, Lee. I didn't express my thoughts as completely as I should have. The Camelback and A5 were scale locos that were adapted to LC+. Diesels like the GP38, GP20, RS1 and maybe the FT are scale size but lack scale details. One big difference is the sheet metal handrails. It keeps these diesels in the toy train rather than the scale model category.

I was thinking of LC+ 2.0 along the lines of Railking. MTH has Railking, Railking Scale and Railking Imperial. I'm thinking that locos like the A5 and Camelback would be LC+ Scale/Imperial and the Berkshire, Hudson, etc are LC+ 2.0 (Railking).

Of course, Lionel doesn't have to follow the MTH model but the analogy does seem to fit to a degree.

The SD60 is another animal. I think it was a trial balloon. My feeling is that we won't see another engine like it. With Bluetooth anyone with the LC app can run Legacy locomotives without the problems of a Legacy system.



Jeff T said:


> I may have to get one and find out! No pre-order though!
> 
> Thanks Joe!!


Jeff, the good thing about LC+ 2.0 is that you don't have to pre-order it. None of it is BTO so we can wait for them to be released and read the reviews. Even though they are good sellers Lionel makes enough of them that they don't sell out immediately. And if you are lucky enough to have a good train store reasonably close you can actually see the loco before buying.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I thought the attraction to LC and LC+ was small children or grown people who find TMCC/Legacy too confusing could operate them. A friend of mine taught his two grandsons both under the age of five to run LC+. So with the 2.0 does that mean they are doing away with the remote which would mean you have to buy something to operate the engines.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

Denny, LC+ 2.0 locos can be run with the LC app which is free or with the Universal Remote which isn't. LC is still being made and the remote is included. It seems that LC+ has been replaced by LC+ 2.0. Most people today have a smartphone and/or a tablet so all they have to do is download the app. The app gives more control options than the Universal Remote. I think Lionel is on the right track  even though as an older hobbyist I'm not so thrilled about running trains with the app.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Many have thought and asked Lionel what seems obvious - Legacy is legacy literally. Of course Lionel says something like: "Oh we see Legacy going on for quite some time..." or something to that effect. 
But... call me a skeptic. When you have free controllers on the phone or flat displays, why make a custom base station and funny handheld that is awkward to use? 
All you need is to convert over most people, deprecate the old thing and convince folks to pay for the premium app to get "the full feature set".
Heck why stop there, make it all a subscription service so you get the continuing cash flow and tell folks they will get the "latest updates" that way.
And allow 3rd parties to build to your interfaces, everyone is happy. Sort of.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

In a few years it will all be controlled with what the hi-tech gizzmos the phone companies release.

Bill


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Interesting nugget I found online...

_At The Big E yesterday I spoke with Lionel Director of Production, Ryan Kunckle about the quality of sounds, and specifically "chuff" we'll be getting in the new LionChief Plus 2.0 engines in 2019. I was concerned that the current version of RailSounds contained in LionChief Plus locomotives, when applied to 4-chuffs per revolution, would sound like a machine gun.

According to Ryan, the RailSounds in the LionChief Plus 2.0 locomotives will be more more akin to the varying chuff we hear from the TMCC/Legacy levels of production. In other words, not just one chuff sound on a loop._


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think that's all a product of them moving to the RailSounds boards, and why not? Leverage their extensive sound work to improve the sounds instead of using the toy-like sounds that the older LC and LC+ comes with.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

How far we've come since that dreadful, IMHO, Sound of Steam! :thumbsup:


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

_Do you think MTH did the right thing and made everything protosound ? 
Seems to me they can put efforts into other things by standardizing the control system.
I have MTH, TMCC and the LC+ systems and like them all. From a manufacturing standpoint Lionel has their hands full dealing with all the different type of controls.._


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

IMHO, as the "above" average hobbyist not having a dedicated layout I believe the different control systems hurts the hobby. All I knew growing up was Lionel. When I came back the hobby there was MTH. Hmmm, what to do. I know Lionel, I'll go with that and I bought TMCC.

Liked it, actually loved it so much that when Legacy came out I jumped immediately. I like bells and whistles!!

Me personally, I won't buy two different systems. If this hobby wants to move forward I believe this is the biggest obstacle.

And yes, until you sit down and looks at it the current Lionel platform of options is a bit confusing.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

As for mth, they appear wedded to the track command signal delivery system. This is limiting and its future value isn't high. While old legacy is rf it's also archaic. Lionel Moving to Bluetooth gets them on the bigger marketplace for suppliers and all things Bluetooth if they want. I should note I have both now extinction systems.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OTOH, Legacy is as good as it needs to be. While DCS is very capable, the issues with the layout gets larger sully it's luster a bit. I see a ton more problems getting DCS to run well on larger layouts than Lionel.

I've visited a few conventional only layouts and demonstrated Legacy. I bring a few locomotives, the Legacy base, and a couple of remotes. In five minutes we're running trains with Legacy. It's very unlikely that would happen on anything but a pretty small layout with DCS.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I can imagine improvements but from an end used point of view I don't know that they'd notice so much. For example it would be ideal if an engine knew it was on the track. Legacy is in the blind. The ir engine transmitter sends engine info but these are not everywhere on the layout. So purely from the developer pt of view a closed loop with the engine would better. But would the end user notice this? The user experience would marginally better I think ... I do wish lionel would put this into the Bluetooth channel. And maybe they have. So my other wish is they'd make it public. I do wonder how hard it is to decode. Blue tooth sniffers are readily available. And I think the encoding scheme which some kind of fsk is also. Then again go for the public approach lionel.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I don't see Legacy as archaic. If bluetooth works for you that's fine. I like Legacy the way it is.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Legacy and Bluetooth control are quite different. First off, BT control is a 1:1 connection, so if you're connected to one locomotive, you can't instantly jump over and control another locomotive, accessory, switch, etc like you can with Legacy. You have to go through all the connection steps to connect to the other locomotive. With Legacy, it's pretty seamless to control multiple locomotives and other command equipment.

It's possible to improve on anything, but quite truthfully, BT is not an improvement on Legacy control, at least IMO.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think the variants (ble, "bluetooth 4" ) don't necessarily require that pair bonding step. Anyway I wasn't cheering on bluetooth exactly, just observing that the legacy for example is a total lionel solution -- whereas something like bluetooth comes from the broader market place and has wide adoption. And so it follows to me at least that they'll follow on a long with that "path" as it changes, hopefully for the better. So the old in house solution is looking a little "archaic" -- well not the best choice of a word maybe but I couldn't think of another.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Overall, I like BT, LC+, whatever you call it, alot more. I have Legacy early on, and ultimately diecided it was ust more . . . programming, hassles with signal strength, whatever .. . than I wanted. I gave away everything and went to conventional. Really happy with it, too. 

Whatever BT/LC+'s faults, it has been hassle free for me, which more than makes up for any deficiencies it might have compared to Legacy's capabilities (which are, frankly, very few). 

Although a remote came with each LC+ unit, anymore I use the universal, which allows me to control three - all I really can run and keep track of on my layout at one time, anyway. 

I've ordered the Lionmaster LC+2.0 Big Boy form the latest catalog. Expect a long wait, but I hope it is worth it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Time to add to those shelves Lee, that is unless you're selling one of those "big boys".


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## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

Does anyone know if you will have a quillable horn when operating lionchief 2.0 on Legacy? I know it has the newer railsounds but this would be a major benefit to running lionchief on legacy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't think there's much of a chance of that. It's going to be a TMCC based product and not a Legacy based product. To operate the quillable whistle, you need the 9-bit Legacy command structure. Though I'm certainly not the "last word", I'm 99% sure it'll be plain TMCC compatibility.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Jeff T said:


> Is this adding to the confusion for the average hobbyist??
> 
> Most are aware of Conventional operation. Then add, Lion Chief, Lion Chief Plus, Lion Chief Plus 2.0, TMCC and Legacy.
> 
> Then there's the whole MTH side of the equation. It has to be confusing for the average hobbyist understanding what works with what.


This is my issue. I run Conventional. Somewhere I have it stuck in my head that Lionchief = no conventional, that you need some little device to run them. 

Then I have heard that Lionchief Plus was the same detail as Legacy but without the Legacy electronics. But 'maybe' still can not run conventional. Whoops, it can. 

Who knows? 

Then they come out that Lionchief Plus 2.0 can run conventional but I am not necessarily seeing Legacy level detail. Maybe it's the poor non HD photos in the Catalog. 

So yeah, it's way too confusing. Bottom line: less purchases. I am getting one locomotive from the current Lionel catalog, a Legacy only because it is not offered in the Lionchief line.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll be very shocked if the LC+ 2.0 isn't just the LC+ line with new electronics. It's pretty hard to believe they would remove some detail. FWIW, the plain LC+ stuff wasn't really as detailed as most Legacy versions, though they're a lot nicer then the entry level LC stuff.


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