# PM42 LED Diagnostics



## Moosehead14

Anybody found a list of what the different combination of LED blinks on a Digitrax PM42 mean?

I currently have a steady green ID and a fast blinking red Config led.


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## ED-RRR

*PM42 LED's..*



Moosehead14 said:


> Anybody found a list of what the different combination of LED blinks on a Digitrax PM42 mean?


There is "No" listing what the PM42 LED's mean and or function..

http://www.digitrax.com/products/power-management/pm42/
--> Instruction Sheet..

The (x1) ID *[Green]* LED when "ON" indicates that the PM42 is "Powered"..

The (x4) Sub-District Status *[Red]* LED's when "ON" indicates that there is an "Electrical Short"..









*Digitrax:*
It is "Not" easy to fully understand what is said, when changing so "Many" definitions..
"Sub-District Status" (Circuit Board) = "Sections" (wiring)..

*Caution:*
Digitrax does "Not" inform what "Relay" controls which Sub-District Status [Red] LED.. 
I can "Only" do my best "Judgments" by the way the circuit board is built..











Moosehead14 said:


> I currently have a steady green ID and a fast blinking red Config led.


The fast blinking [Red] "Config" LED is actually a "Sub-District Status" LED..
It looks like that the PM42 is turning *On/Off* the "Relay" to this Section..


*[Moosehead14]:* Question
Is the PM42 (100%) “Correctly” wired on the club layout ??








......


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## fcwilt

Moosehead14 said:


> I currently have a steady green ID and a fast blinking red Config led.


Short one of the other outputs and see if the RED LED is steady or blinking.

The manual seems to say it should be steady but perhaps it actually blinks to indicate a short.

If a short should cause a steady LED then short the output associated with the blinking LED and see if it now steady.

Remove the short and verify the LED resumes blinking. Then try to determine if one of the relays is clicking at the same rate.

Some relays can be very quiet and you may need to get very close to hear anything.

If it appears that no relay is clicking then it is possible that a very brief short can light the RED LED but not activate the relay.

This would depend on the actual circuitry of the device but it is conceivable.

Frederick


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## Moosehead14

Sorry fellas, perhaps some mis-communication.

I'm talking about the RED config LED. The only information about this lights is that it will give a slow alternating blink with the GREEN ID light when trying to program the board. 

Mine is doing a fast blinking all on its own, while the ID light stays solid.

Sorry...couldn't help myself with the colours.


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## fcwilt

Moosehead14 said:


> Sorry fellas, perhaps some mis-communication.
> 
> I'm talking about the RED config LED. The only information about this lights is that it will give a slow alternating blink with the GREEN ID light when trying to program the board.
> 
> Mine is doing a fast blinking all on its own, while the ID light stays solid.
> 
> Sorry...couldn't help myself with the colours.


Well I completely misread your question - my apologies.

I went back to the PM42 manual and cannot find anything describing the condition you asked about.

I'm going to have some breakfast and I will read it again.

Frederick


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## Lemonhawk

I just looked at my PM42 and it has only the solid green light, perhaps because I have no loconet cable connected to it. I was thinking that the loconet cable was only used for programming it and hence once I programmed it I disconnected the loconet cable. Is seemed at the time the prudent thing to do since once programmed I did not want it to change inadvertently. I also use an Accu-lites interface to the PM42, seemed easier than messing with the edge connector. I'll have to look to see if the PM42 actually feeds anything back over the loconet that JMRI finds useful. See if just disconnecting the loconet cable clears the light.


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## fcwilt

The PM42 will send messages over LocoNet as to shorts occurring, shorts going away, auto-reverse state, etc.


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## Mark VerMurlen

Do you have a way of monitoring Loconet messages, such as with a computer running JMRI? I think that status light blinks based on send/receive of Loconet messages. I've seen this light rapidly blink on my system when I had some configuration error that resulted in a cascade of messages on Loconet. Not sure if this is your problem or not, but if I were you, I'd start with monitoring Loconet to see what might be going on.

Mark


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## Moosehead14

I'm just getting set up with JMRI and have used Decoder Pro but not much else so far. Where do I start looking for the message log?


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## Mark VerMurlen

After launching Decoder Pro, under the LocoNet menu, select the Monitor LocoNet menu item. That will give you a window that will show you the LocoNet messages that are occurring on your system.

Mark


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## Moosehead14

I haven't tried JMRI yet, but I think you are on to something. I have been rebuilding the control console on another layout and while mucking about with something else, I noticed that the same light on this setup blinks in unison (or at least very close to) with the NET light on the DCS100. Hmmmmmm.....

Perhpas my DCS is sending some sort of signal endlessly causing that light to blink!

Thanks for the idea. :thumbsup:


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## Lemonhawk

Nice clean looking install. The Accu-lites board really makes things look more organized. Whats the little board in the upper right?


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## JerryH

It looks like a PTB100 for sound decoders on a programming track.


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## rjnicolson

Box looks really good. Now where is ours:appl:


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## Moosehead14

Yup, PTB100 programming booster. 

I am building up a couple of mobile command consoles for our club HO and N scale modular layouts. This one is for the HO. (N scale is coming Nic!)

Right now this one isn't getting any signal from the programming outputs. The JMRI lets me program on the main but not the programming track. I have tried with and without the booster with no luck. JMRI says error 308, no acknowledgement from the loco, but it definitely "jerks" on the main. 

I believe it should be straight forward, prog wires to prog booster to prog track and then prog the locomotive. Do I need to select a specific Service Mode mode (reg, paged, direct) of if there is a setting to change or is the command station suspect? There is no way it could be my wiring...right?!!


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## Lemonhawk

I would do an end to end continuity check on the wiring that goes to the programming track with any electronics isolated (removed). When I had programming problems like this it turned out to be a connector that had infinite resistance! I blamed all the electronics first and even sent the PR3 back to Digitrax before discovering the band connector.


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## ED-RRR

*[Moosehead14] --> Control Box.. (#1)*

*[Moosehead14]:* Hi

I totally admire how the units are "Professionally" wired together..
Nice clean smooth wire connections..
This also prevents *[DCC]* "Electronic Noise".. 

*Caution:*
What I am about to say you might find to be "Offensive"..
I am also "Sorry" for going off subject in this "Thread"..
Like in my previous postings to you, I am only trying to help..
Some individuals do "Not" want to know if they may/will have any future problems..

You may "Not" get the (x4) Beeps "Fault Alarm"..
-But-
As the (x2) Digitrax *[DCC]* units get "Hotter", the "Amperage" output will also "Drop"..
It is normal for the rear cooling fins to get quite warm..









http://www.digitrax.com/
*7.10.1 Heat Dissipation*
It is normal for the DCS100 to be warm to the touch when it is in use. It is
designed to absorb and dissipate the power difference between the input voltage
and the selected scale output stabilized voltage, at the current load being
drawn. If the unit is not able to dissipate excess heat, over temperature thermal
shutdown may occur. We recommend that you locate the boosters in a location
where they can dissipate heat. If you experience frequent over temperature
shutdowns, add a small fan to help cool the booster.

It looks like your "Control Box" is in a custom made cabinet on wheels..
There is a clear plastic top cover to keep any debree out.. (Excellent Idea)..
You have (x4) small air vent holes into the top shelf on the cabinet.. (Good)..
You have (x5) large air vent holes on each side of the cabinet.. (Good)..
Though the "Control Box" has a dust free environment, there "May" not be enough "Hot Air" released 
and required "Cooler Air" added.. 

Maybe add extra "Cooler Air" into your "Control Box" using a computer fan at (x1) side (Outlet)
and a dust filter material at the other side (Inlet)..
The filter material will prevent dust from entering the "Control Box".. (Thin Foam)..









*Computer Fan:*
- 12.V-DC power supply
- Fan noisy at 12.V-DC
- Fan vibrates against mounting surface

*Ebay:*
DC 12V 3Pin PCW Fan Speed Control Controller For Computer Case Noise Reduction..









*Computer Fan: (Mounting)..*
When mounting the computer fan to the inside of the "Control Box":
- On (x1) side of the computer fan there will be an "Arrow" for flow direction..
- Mount the computer fan to "Blow Out"..
- Use the (x4) required wood screws and use (x8) small rubber "O Rings" to prevent any "Vibrations"..
- Mount (x2) small rubber "O Rings" between the fan and mounting surface at each individual mounting screw (x4)..








......


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## ED-RRR

*[Moosehead14] --> Control Box.. (#2)*

*[Moosehead14]:* Hi Again

I do "Not" claim to be an "Electrical Engineer"..
All of the information I find, is "Only" from the "Professionals"..
- Mark Gurries NMRA (National Model Railroad Association and *[DCC] *Clinics.. 
- CTI Electronics..

You do have the "Required" jumper wire on your Digitrax DB150 "Booster".. 
CONFIG A --> GROUND..

I also noticed that you have a *"Ground Wire"* connected to the DB150 "Booster" and then to the DCS100 "Controller"..









I hope that it is *"Not"* connected to a 115V-AC "Ground" power supply..
Mark Gurries "Highly" advises *"NOT" *connecting any type of *"Ground Wire"* to any *[DCC]* unit.. (Electronic Noise)..
CTI Electronics advises that electrical motors (switch machines) should have their own power supply.. (Electronic Wave Noise)..
If using a "Cooling Fan", (Electric Motor) a "Separate" power supply should be used to prevent "Electronic Wave Noise"..

I am also totally rewiring my Digitrax *[DCC]* system, to use CTI Electronics "Control Modules",
to operate all of my "Track Signals", to actual [HO] scale track operations.. 
......


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## fcwilt

Just in case anybody is thinking of installing fans in whatever it may be it is usually desirable to have a filtered fan blow INTO the enclosure, case, etc so that to some degree there is positive pressure inside, forcing air out of cracks and such RATHER than sucking unfiltered air in through the cracks (and such).


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## Lemonhawk

I think the green wire is going to the PM42, at least that's how I have it wired. I probably would not have run it under the drawer, and left it visible like most of the other wiring.


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## ED-RRR

*Sucking Unfiltered Air ??*



fcwilt said:


> Just in case anybody is thinking of installing fans in whatever it may be it is usually desirable to have a filtered fan blow INTO the enclosure, case,
> etc so that to some degree there is positive pressure inside, forcing air out of cracks
> and such RATHER than sucking unfiltered air in through the cracks (and such).


*#1)*
This power cabinet is quite well built.. (Professionally)..
Probably has wood glue at all joints.. (Air Tight Built Cabinet)..
LooK --> The cabinet has (x5) large round holes on the left side and (x5) large round holes on the right side.. (As Previously Stated)..

*#2)*
"All" computers and power supplies with a cooling fan blows the "Hot" air "Out"..
The is for the best air flow efficiency.. (Electrical Engineers)..

*#3)*
You would have (x1) cooling fan blowing "Cool" air "In"
and have (x1) cooling fan blowing "Warm" air "Out"..
LooK --> How would this effect the (x2) fans working against each other ?? (Air Flow Restriction)..



fcwilt said:


> and such RATHER than *sucking unfiltered air* in through the cracks (and such).


*#4)*
As per my *[ED-RRR]* "Posting #17.. 
Look --> Air Flow Picture..
Cool air "In" is as at the "Right" side of the cabinet that has a "Filtered Screen".. 
Warm air "Out" is as at the "Left" side of the cabinet that has a "Cooling Fan"..
......


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR

Since you have stated on several occasions that you do not have formal education in these fields why do you argue with those of us that do?

When you have a fan sucking air out of an enclosure there tends to be negative pressure in the enclosure with the result that any small openings become air intakes bringing in dust along with the air. 

Providing a filtered input does not prevent this.

Placing the filter on the fan blowing in insures (to the degree the filter is effective) that only clean air is blown into the enclosure generating some positive pressure (assuming proper design) so the clean air exits the enclosure via the intentional cooling exits as well as the unintentional ones.

The air exiting the enclosure from any of the exits carries with it some heat.

You CAN have a multiple fans, some blowing in, some sucking out, but you want to maintain the positive pressure to help keep dust out.


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## ED-RRR

*Green Wire / Ground Wire..*

*[Lemonhawk]:* Hi
Thanks for pointing me to a new direction to "Help"..

*[Moosehead14]:* (Club Layout)..
The reason the *[DCC] *control units are in a "Roller Cabinet", is because this is a "Module" model train layout.. 
A great advanced model railroading achievement..

*[Moosehead14]:* (Club Layout)..
Is using an excellent PM42 circuit board "Attachment"..
Accu-Lites PM42 Breakout Board for Digitrax PM42.. (2011)..
The PM42 breakout board brings out all the connections available on the Digitrax PM42 to easy access screw terminals..
The PM42 breakout board is setup to accept up to (x2) "Inputs" and (x4) distinct "Outputs"..











Lemonhawk said:


> I think the green wire is going to the PM42, at least that's how I have it wired.
> I probably would not have run it under the drawer, and left it visible like most of the other wiring.


*[Lemonhawk]:* Hi
Looking very closely at *[Moosehead14]* overhead picture.. (Posting #11)..
He is definitely using a V-AC power supply to the PM42 (x2 black wires and x1 ground wire).. 

*[Lemonhawk]:* Hi
Please do "Not" take this the "Wrong" way..
Mark Gurries "Highly" advises "NOT" connecting any type of "Ground Wire" to any [DCC] unit.. (Electronic Noise)..
CTI Electronics advises that electrical coils (relays) will release "Electronic Wave Noise"..

*Warning: #1)*
"Only" connect the (x1) required "Wire Connection" (Jumper Cable) for a "Digitrax Booster"..









*Warning: #2)*
Never use 115.V-AC "Ground" wire for any [DCC] wiring operations..

*Warning: #3)*
Never connect any "Ground" *[DCC]* wiring operations (Digitrax Controller, Digitrax Booster, Digitrax PM42. --> Etc.) 
to any different individual *[DCC]* units..
......


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## ED-RRR

*Warning --> A Heckler Has Now Entered This Thread !!*



fcwilt said:


> ED-RRR
> When you have a fan sucking air out of an enclosure there tends to be negative pressure in the enclosure with the result
> that any small openings become air intakes bringing in dust along with the air......
> ...... Providing a filtered input does not prevent this.....
> Bla - Bla - Bla..


*[fcwilt]: (#1)*
This "Thread" is in regards of the Digitrax PM42..
At one time I actually had an "Operating" Digitrax PM42 unit.. (Did You ??)..

*[fcwilt]: (#2)*
If adding a cool air "In" cooling fan will require a "Special Mounting" procedures.. 
An "Exterior Filter" will be required to prevent any "Dust" from entering into the "Control Cabinet", using an "In" cooling fan ..
Why are you making it much more complicated for *[Moosehead14]* ??

*[fcwilt]: (#3)*
Where are your actual "Engineered Designs?? (Pictures).. 
More Bla Bla useless replays ..
......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *#2)*
> "All" computers and power supplies with a cooling fan blows the "Hot" air "Out"..
> The is for the best air flow efficiency.. (Electrical Engineers)..
> ......


Nope, wrong ..
easiest example is the origional ATX form factor computer power supply ...it sucked the air in the back, and blew it onto the passive CPU heat sink ..millions of them out there ..
personal knowledge, no google needed ..

However, fan cooling for the origional posters enclosure may be a moot point, if he is not loading the supplies to the point of thermal shutdown, quite possibly just the thermal convection may suffice ..

by the way, really nice and clean wiring inside the enclosure :thumbsup:


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## fcwilt

deleted


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR

#1 You mentioned cooling first - I expanded on it. As to what I use on my layout here are some photos during the early phases of construction:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t3o4lkeoue9ng6t/AAAlZ4JTTGalAUYaI9fi0O20a?dl=0


#2 Adding a exterior filter to a fan is trivial. Many computer fan kits will provide the needed parts.

#3 I closed my company many years ago. After the time required for keeping records to satisfy the IRS all such documentation was discarded.


You say you want to help others but you are not willing to let others help you by correcting you.

You need to accept that fact that there are others who know more than you and you should be willing to learn from them instead of berating them.


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## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> ED-RRR
> 
> #1 You mentioned cooling first - I expanded on it. As to what I use on my layout here are some photos during the early phases of construction:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t3o4lkeoue9ng6t/AAAlZ4JTTGalAUYaI9fi0O20a?dl=0


Impressive layout, clean organized wiring, and it looks all so, well,pretty 
you definitely have something to be proud of :appl:


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## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> Impressive layout, clean organized wiring, and it looks all so, well,pretty
> you definitely have something to be proud of :appl:


Thanks.

I'm good with the "engineering" side of things: carpentry, wiring, laying track to match a computer generated template - that sort of thing.

But I have NO creative abilities to speak of.

I fear I shall not be able to achieve the kind of scenery I see in magazines and such.

Ballasting the track is something I can do because there are "rules" to follow - and of course the ballast goes where the track goes.

I've painted the top of all the blue foam a "dirt" color so once the track is ballasted it won't look quite so stark.

But beyond that I don't really know where to start with scenery.

I may seek out some help.

Thanks again.

Frederick


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## ED-RRR

*Cooling Fans..*



ED-RRR said:


> *#2)*
> "All" computers and power supplies with a cooling fan blows the *"Hot" air "Out"..*
> The is for the best air flow efficiency.. (Electrical Engineers)..





wvgca said:


> *Nope, wrong ..*
> easiest example is the origional ATX form factor computer power supply ...*it sucked the air in the back*, and blew it onto the passive CPU heat sink ..
> millions of them out there ..
> personal knowledge, no google needed ..


*[wvgca]:*
I have built my own computers since Microsoft Windows 3.2
I still have a big tower, powerful gamer PC..
So you are trying to convince me and others that the computer power supply is blowing "Hot" air "Into" the PC tower !!
This will heat up the mother board..
Not as per supplied manufacture picture..











fcwilt said:


> Since you have stated on several occasions that you do not have formal education in these fields why do you argue with those of us that do?





fcwilt said:


> You say you want to help others but you are not willing to let others help you by correcting you.


*[fcwilt]:*
Do you trust *[wvgca]* personal knowledge, or actual technical atx power supply air flow directions ??



wvgca said:


> However, fan cooling for the origional posters enclosure may be a moot point, if he is not loading the supplies to the point of thermal shutdown,
> quite possibly just *the thermal convection may suffice ..*


*[wvgca]:*
How do you know this ??



ED-RRR said:


> As the (x2) Digitrax [DCC] units get "Hotter", the "Amperage" output will also "Drop"..
> It is normal for the rear cooling fins to get quite warm..
> 
> http://www.digitrax.com/
> 7.10.1 Heat Dissipation
> It is normal for the DCS100 to be warm to the touch when it is in use. It is
> designed to absorb and dissipate the power difference between the input voltage
> and the selected scale output stabilized voltage, at the current load being
> drawn. If the unit is not able to dissipate excess heat, over temperature thermal
> *shutdown may occur.* We recommend that you locate the boosters in a location
> where they can dissipate heat. If you experience frequent over temperature
> shutdowns, add a small fan to help cool the booster..


*[fcwilt]:*
Do you trust *[wvgca]* personal knowledge about Digitrax *[DCC] *products, when *[wvgca]* has absolutely "No" Digitrax products ??
......


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## ED-RRR

*Cooling Digitrax Control Units..*

*[fcwilt]:* Hi
Please do "Not" take this the wrong way..
My "Only" intention is to help you..
Looking at your super clean wiring layouts, it is quite obvious that you are a "Double Analytical" individual..

*[fcwilt]:* Layout Pictures 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t3o4lkeou...I9fi0O20a?dl=0
Pic #49 (Zoomed In)..











ED-RRR said:


> http://www.digitrax.com/
> 7.10.1 Heat Dissipation
> It is normal for the DCS100 to be warm to the touch when it is in use. It is
> designed to absorb and dissipate the power difference between the input voltage
> and the selected scale output stabilized voltage, at the current load being
> drawn. If the unit is not able to dissipate excess heat, over temperature thermal
> shutdown may occur. *We recommend that you locate the boosters in a location
> where they can dissipate heat.* If you experience frequent over temperature
> shutdowns, add a small fan to help cool the booster..


*Digitrax Control Units:*
If the unit is not able to dissipate excess heat, over temperature thermal shutdown "May" occur.. 
As the Digitrax control units do get "Hotter", track "Amperage" will also drop..

*[fcwilt]:*
Your (x2) Digitrax *[DCC]* units are neatly stored on a high shelf, right under the layout, in a corner..
There are "Only" (x2) small air gaps between the (x2) Digitrax *[DCC]* units from behind and from the top..
Your Digitrax PS2012 power supply is also out putting "Hot" air on the left side..
It is also well know that "Hot" air rises..
You might/will have "Cool" air flow problems..

*Only A Friendly Suggestion:*
I know that there is "No" way that you will take "Everything" apart to add (x2) "Cooling Fans" from "Below" to each Digitrax unit..
Why not just mount (x1) 120MM (4.75") CPU cooling fan to increase "Air" flow in this air tight location..
Mount (x1) cooling fan "Vertically" to your cross brace, over the (x2) Digitrax units, blowing more clean air circulation..
This will "Improve" the performances of your (x2) *[DCC] * Digitrax units..
......


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## ED-RRR

*Model Train Assembly Procedures..*



fcwilt said:


> I'm good with the "engineering" side of things: carpentry, wiring, laying track to match a computer generated template - that sort of thing.
> But I have NO creative abilities to speak of.
> I fear I shall not be able to achieve the kind of scenery I see in magazines and such.
> Ballasting the track is something I can do because there are "rules" to follow - and of course the ballast goes where the track goes.
> I've painted the top of all the blue foam a "dirt" color so once the track is ballasted it won't look quite so stark.
> But beyond that I don't really know where to start with scenery.
> I may seek out some help.
> Thanks again.
> Frederick


*[fcwilt]:*
If you post the same above "Quote" in a new "Thread", you will receive many (many) suggestions..
Sorry to say there are very few "Professional" model train builders now around in this "Forum".. 

*-->* *[fcwilt]:* and *[Moosehead14]:*

*Procedure: (#1)*
Insure that "All" *[DCC]* "Mounted" track functions are (100%) functional "Before" you "Add" any "Scenery".. 

*Procedure: (#2)*
Now add the required "Track Ballast"..

*Procedure: (#3)*
Insure that "All" *[DCC]* "Switch Track" functions are (100%) functional..

*Procedure: (#4)*
Now can mount the wanted "Structures" and added "Scenery Detail".. 
......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]:*
> I have built my own computers since Microsoft Windows 3.2
> I still have a big tower, powerful gamer PC..
> So you are trying to convince me and others that the computer power supply is blowing "Hot" air "Into" the PC tower !!
> This will heat up the mother board..
> Not as per supplied manufacture picture..
> 
> View attachment 197433
> 
> ......


That's a pretty image but unfortunately is not origional spec atx ..the origional ones had the fan at the back [blowing in and then across the cpu heat sink], and also had a switched AC outlet to power the monitor ...
the image shown is one the the newer offshore replacements, which normally needed the CPU heatsink to be upgraded to 'Active" [which means add a fan to it] ..
again, just personal knowledge .. seen a few of them..


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## fcwilt

EE-RRR

The picture of the power supply tends to prove my point.

The clean air (in theory) inside the case is being pushed into the power supply and out the BACK of the power supply into the outside world. 

The power supply will likely have positive pressure inside preventing dust from being sucked into the power supply from any openings.

In practice the case will have other fans for overall cooling and they will likely create positive pressure inside the case as a whole so the fan on the power supply will not be sucking air into the case.


Why do you think that a filtered fan on the outside of an enclosure blowing in is going to be introducing hot air into the case?

In your drawing the fan sucking air out of the enclosure will be drawing air (and dust) in from any and all openings, not just the filtered opening.

In the approach I described the fan blowing filtered air into the enclosure will be pushing the hot air inside the enclosure out any and all openings.

In both cases outside air (assumed to be cool'ish) is entering the case and hot air on the inside is exiting the case.

Frederick


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *Procedure: (#4)*
> Now can mount the wanted "Structures" and added "Scenery Detail"..
> ......


And there is the rub.

The placing of the structures is fairly clear since most of them are going to be industries of one sort or another and they are going to be along side the various industrial spurs.

It's the "scenery detail" that benefits from the creative ability that I lack.


I have a 388 page catalog of JUST scenery items. 

It's not that I cannot buy such items and use them on the layout, it's the problem of doing so in a realistic and believable way.

And determining which of the hundreds of items will produce the most satisfying result and yet not be too difficult to work with - that's a whole other issue.


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *
> Your Digitrax PS2012 power supply is also out putting "Hot" air on the left side..
> It is also well know that "Hot" air rises..
> You might/will have "Cool" air flow problems..
> *


*

You are correct and all of what is shown is gone.

After this picture was taken I changed the way things were installed.

For example the large shelf was removed and the command stations/booster were mounted in such a way that there was unrestricted air flow over the heat sinks on the backs.

But the current setup is even different as I scrapped the Digitrax gear (two command stations and one booster) and went with a single Roco Z21 command station with custom made "mini-boosters" distributed around the layout.*


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## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> And there is the rub.
> 
> 
> It's not that I cannot buy such items and use them on the layout, it's the problem of doing so in a realistic and believable way.
> 
> And determining which of the hundreds of items will produce the most satisfying result and yet not be too difficult work with - that's a whole other issue.


There are a lot of layout photos here, both in the the galleries, and in user profiles ...
If you find something that looks 'right' to you, just ask how it was done, and most users would be happy to explain how they accomplished it ...
We're all here to learn


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## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> There are a lot of layout photos here, both in the the galleries, and in user profiles ...
> If you find something that looks 'right' to you, just ask how it was done, and most users would be happy to explain how they accomplished it ...
> We're all here to learn


That's something I had not considered.

Usually I look at the ones I like and think "I will never be able to do that".

:laugh:


----------



## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> That's something I had not considered.
> 
> Usually I look at the ones I like and think "I will never be able to do that".
> 
> :laugh:


My layout is my second layout .. 
and ground scenery consists of a 50lb bag of sandblasting sand mixed with Walmart sheet moss run through a meat grinder .. store bought stuff was mixed sizes of talus / rock, and shades of green fuzzy grass glued on top .
not fancy or museum grade, but 'good enough' for me


----------



## ED-RRR

*Cooling Fans..*



wvgca said:


> That's a pretty image but unfortunately is *not origional spec atx *..
> the origional ones had the fan at the back [blowing in and then across the cpu heat sink],
> and also had a switched AC outlet to power the monitor ...


What ATX power supply are you talking about ?? 
Having "Hot" air from the power supply, blowing across the cpu (Mother Board) heat sink..



wvgca said:


> .... the image shown is one the *the newer offshore replacements,* which normally needed the *CPU heatsink *to be upgraded to 'Active"
> [which means add a fan to it] ..
> again, just personal knowledge .. seen a few of them..


What are you talking about ??
CPU motherboards have always had a small cooling fan..

*PC Towers: *
As the CPU motherboard, video card, sound card became much more powerful, greater power supplies were required.. 
This also required much improved "Cooling Fans" to remove all that "Hot" air..
To "Remove" hot air from the CPU, not to add more hot air into the CPU..

*Actual ATX Power Supplies:*










*PC Towers Air Flow:*









*Special Notes:*
Notice how more "Cooling" air and "Fans are required as the CPU gets more powerful..
Also take very close notice how many more *"Filtered"* fresh air *"Inlets" *are added to prevent the *"Cooling Fans"* from *"Fighting"* against each other..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Advanced [DCC] Model Train Operations..*

I am presently totally re-wiring my [HO] layout for full *[DCC]* operations..
I am using Digitrax *[DCC]* for my "Digital Command Control" 
-But-
Required to use (2nd) party *[DCC] *manufactures to improve my model train layout performances without any *[DCC] *"Problems"..

*[fcwilt]: *
You now changed to "Roco Z21 Command Station" with custom made "mini-boosters" distributed around the layout..
You have made an "Excellent" decision doing this..
You are now using a *[DCC]* system that has a "Friendly" hand shake between "All" *[DCC] *communications..

*(#1)
My [DCC] Software:*
I use "Professional" model train software from "Freiwald"..
http://www.freiwald.com/pages/traincontroller.htm

*(#2)
My [DCC] Software/Hardware:*
I use "Professional" model train software/hardware to operate my "Track Signals" to be (100%) actual..
http://www.cti-electronics.com/

*(#3)
My [DCC] Programming Track:*
I use a "Professional Booster" model train "Programming" track on my work bench.. (Power Pax)..
http://www.dccspecialties.com/
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR trust me, origional ATX spec supply blew air in, google it if you want ...
also , your statement that "CPU motherboards have always had a small cooling fan.." is wrong also, perhaps in your limited experience, but not in mine, or the real world .. 
again, google if you wish to
and sorry to origional poster, off topic on your thread ..


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *(#2)
> My [DCC] Software/Hardware:*
> I use "Professional" model train software/hardware to operate my "Track Signals" to be (100%) actual..
> http://www.cti-electronics.com/


I don't know if I mentioned this already but to be safe I will mention it again.

I would strongly suggest you take a look at RR-CirKits Simple Serial Bus (SSB) products:

http://www.rr-cirkits.com/

The web site is not much to look at but the products are top notch as is the customer support.

The design of the SSB devices are "state of the art" compared to the CTI products.

I started to use CTI but then someone put me onto RR-CirKits.

After evaluating the SSB devices I sold all my CTI gear (appx $6000 worth) and went with RR-CirKits.

Very glad I did.

Frederick


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> What ATX power supply are you talking about ??
> Having "Hot" air from the power supply, blowing across the cpu (Mother Board) heat sink..
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about ??
> CPU motherboards have always had a small cooling fan..
> 
> *PC Towers: *
> As the CPU motherboard, video card, sound card became much more powerful, greater power supplies were required..
> This also required much improved "Cooling Fans" to remove all that "Hot" air..
> To "Remove" hot air from the CPU, not to add more hot air into the CPU..
> 
> *Actual ATX Power Supplies:*
> View attachment 197641
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PC Towers Air Flow:*
> View attachment 197649
> 
> 
> 
> *Special Notes:*
> Notice how more "Cooling" air and "Fans are required as the CPU gets more powerful..
> Also take very close notice how many more *"Filtered"* fresh air *"Inlets" *are added to prevent the *"Cooling Fans"* from *"Fighting"* against each other..
> ......


Well,well,well, Aunt Edna's at it again! Careful, Edna, your usual ignorance is showing. Pressurized control cabinets are industry standard. Of course you haven't run across that in your usual" I stole it from the web so I'll post it here as my own idea" copy and paste info- marathon.
Never mind that your incessant ramblings and jump up and down, look at what I know comments have nothing to do with the actual problem being discussed by the knowledgeable, intelligent and experienced persons in this thread.
You are talking down to a group of people who's collective experience ( that includes me, sorry to say) adds up to hundreds of years. Your first three words any time you post should be " may I comment" and the fourth should be "sir". 
Some component cooling exhausts air, cabinet cooling introduces air, just like you've been repeatedly told by these gentlemen. Pressurization is the goal. 
Now shut up and listen, maybe you'll learn something.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Air Flow --> Cooling..*



time warp said:


> You are talking down to a group of people who's collective experience ( that includes me, sorry to say) adds up to hundreds of years..


Are you talking about *[wvgca]* that has “Alzheimer’s”..



wvgca said:


> ED-RRR trust me, origional *ATX spec supply blew air in*, google it if you want ...













time warp said:


> Component cooling exhausts air, cabinet cooling introduces air, just like you've been repeatedly told by these gentlemen. *Pressurization* is the goal.
> Now shut up and listen, maybe you'll learn something.


*[time warp]:*
Do your own research before stating "Pressurization" is the goal..
There are "Positive" -OR- "Negative" computer tower pressures..
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/238184-31-case-airflow-positive-negative-pressure
"Positive Pressure" = Voted 50%
"Negative Pressure" = Voted 51%

*[time warp]* and *[wvgca]*.. 
It is quite obvious neither of you (x2) Googled --> atx airflow (Images) -OR- pc airflow (Images)..

I never claimed to be an "Electrical Engineer", but I search for the required information from the "Professionals"..
Not from a model train "Forum"..
I get my PC parts and assistance from a very high ranking "Computer Engineer"..
He owns a private company and builds the required huge computer mainframes for the University of Waterloo.. (Computer Engineering)..

*[ED-RRR]:*
My custom built PC tower.. (Powerful Gaming Computer)..






















*[Moosehead14]:* Hi Again
It does "Not" look like you have the required air flow "Cooling" for your (x2) Digitax control units..
Using either "Positive Pressure" -OR- "Negative Pressure" cooling will "Improve" your Digitrax units..

*[wvgca]:* Question
What are you doing here in this "Thread" ?? 
You have "No" experience at all when it comes to "Digitrax" or the PM42..

*[time warp]:* Question
What are you doing here in this "Thread" ?? 
You must be following me to be a useless "Heckler" wasting everyone’s time..
You have "No" experience at all when it comes to *[DCC]..*
Stick your fat nose somewhere else and maybe start helping others..



time warp said:


> .... *I'm not DCC *but I'm very interested in .....


......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> Are you talking about *[wvgca]* that has “Alzheimer’s”..
> 
> ......


I "think" that I remember what that fancy word means ?? maybe not

ED-RRR, something for you to read... http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR

When it comes to case pressure I don't think I would give much credence to a poll taken of folks of unknown background or education.

If the air flow in the case is "adequate" either situation (positive, negative) will provide the required cooling.

Of course "adequate" can be difficult to determine as there are many, many factors that determine how well the cooling system(s) work.

But in my 30+ years of experience pressure is not of major concern when it comes to good cooling.

One the other hand the issue of dust infiltration can be a significant problem as dust inside the case can cause cooling to be impaired and/or electrical issues.

Since we don't want dust in the case so we want positive pressure.

Yes there are likely cases out there that run negative but if you could put two cases that were otherwise identical and one was running positive and the other negative you could easily see the difference in dust infiltration.

I would always opt for positive pressure.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*“Total Moron".. (Example)..*



wvgca said:


> I "think" that I remember what that fancy word means ?? maybe not
> ED-RRR, something for you to read...
> http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm





wvgca said:


> ED-RRR trust me, origional ATX spec* supply blew air in,* google it if you want ...


*[wvgca]:* Question: (#1)
You have stated *power supply air blew "In" ??*
Why have you posted "Pictures" showing the "Power Supply" *blowing air "Out" ??*









*[wvgca]:* Question: (#2)
Why have you shown where (x2) cooling fans, that will work "Against Each Other".. 








......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Hi [fcwilt]..*

*[fcwilt]: *Hi
You are building your model train layout from a "Cadillac" to a "Bugatti Veyron" model train layout..
It may also looks like you are using all "European" manufactures..

= Power Supplies: TDK-Lambda (V-DC)..
= Switch Track Machines: DCC Concepts Digital Cobalt Turnout Motors..
= Digital Command Control: Roco Z21 command station with custom made "mini-boosters"..
= Layout Computer Control: RR-CirKits Simple Serial Bus (SSB).. (Recommends JMRI Computer Software)..

No *[DCC] *Software Posted: (#1)
RR-CirKits recommends JMRI computer software.. (Constant Updates Required) !!
You are now using "Roco" and look at all the "Roco" updated required information at this web site.. (JMRI computer software) ..
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/hardware/XPressNet/index.shtml

No *[DCC] *Software Posted: (#2)
I would strongly suggest that you use a "European" model train "Software", since you are using the Roco Z21 *[DCC]* command hardware..
http://www.freiwald.com/pages/traincontroller.htm
......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *[fcwilt]: *Hi
> You are building your model train layout from a "Cadillac" to a "Bugatti Veyron" model train layout..
> It may also looks like you are using all "European" manufactures..
> 
> = Power Supplies: TDK-Lambda (V-DC)..
> = Switch Track Machines: DCC Concepts Digital Cobalt Turnout Motors..
> = Digital Command Control: Roco Z21 command station with custom made "mini-boosters"..
> = Layout Computer Control: RR-CirKits Simple Serial Bus (SSB).. (Recommends JMRI Computer Software)..
> 
> No *[DCC] *Software Posted: (#1)
> RR-CirKits recommends JMRI computer software.. (Constant Updates Required) !!
> You are now using "Roco" and look at all the "Roco" updated required information at this web site.. (JMRI computer software) ..
> http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/hardware/XPressNet/index.shtml
> 
> No *[DCC] *Software Posted: (#2)
> I would strongly suggest that you use a "European" model train "Software", since you are using the Roco Z21 *[DCC]* command hardware..
> http://www.freiwald.com/pages/traincontroller.htm
> ......


Hi,

I forgot to mention that the Cobalt switch machines proved so unreliable that I replaced them all with Tortoise devices which (so far) have worked just fine.

I only need to use the JMRI software to configure the RR-CirKits devices - other then having to make future changes its "once and done".

For running my layout I use Train Controller Gold from Freiwald Software - a pretty amazing piece of software.


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]:* Question: (#1)
> You have stated *power supply air blew "In" ??*
> Why have you posted "Pictures" showing the "Power Supply" *blowing air "Out" ??*
> 
> *[wvgca]:* Question: (#2)
> Why have you shown where (x2) cooling fans, that will work "Against Each Other"..
> ......


not my pictures... never posted those ...
no idea where those came from ..
they show as belonging to post 1191761, which is your post #48 here
i don't normally do 'cut and paste' 
i think you're more confused than normal


----------



## Mark R.

_(edit)_ Nevermind .... was in a bad mood from the old grind today ....

Mark.


----------



## wvgca

Mark R.
I can relate 

it's a hobby, not real life,  ...


----------



## ED-RRR

*Software..*



fcwilt said:


> Hi,
> I only need to use the JMRI software to configure the RR-CirKits devices - other then having to make future changes its "once and done".
> 
> For running my layout I use Train Controller Gold from Freiwald Software - a pretty amazing piece of software.


I have JMRI software in my stand alone train *[DCC]* computer..
You really can "Not" complain about this software since it is "Free"..

I use TrainProgrammer from Freiwald Software and it works great for me..

Since you are using the European Roco Z21 *[DCC]* system and the European Freiwald Software,
you will have no problems with *[DCC]* communications.. (Hand Shake)..
......


----------



## fcwilt

ER-RRR

Yes with JMRI you definitely get your money's worth. 

I haven't run into too many people using Train Programmer.

I use it myself for programming engines.

I have created the decoder definitions for some of the RR-CirKits devices so I can configure them using Train Programmer.

Frederick


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> Are you talking about *[wvgca]* that has “Alzheimer’s”..
> 
> 
> View attachment 197793
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *[time warp]:*
> Do your own research before stating "Pressurization" is the goal..
> There are "Positive" -OR- "Negative" computer tower pressures..
> http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/238184-31-case-airflow-positive-negative-pressure
> "Positive Pressure" = Voted 50%
> "Negative Pressure" = Voted 51%
> 
> *[time warp]* and *[wvgca]*..
> It is quite obvious neither of you (x2) Googled --> atx airflow (Images) -OR- pc airflow (Images)..
> 
> I never claimed to be an "Electrical Engineer", but I search for the required information from the "Professionals"..
> Not from a model train "Forum"..
> I get my PC parts and assistance from a very high ranking "Computer Engineer"..
> He owns a private company and builds the required huge computer mainframes for the University of Waterloo.. (Computer Engineering)..
> 
> *[ED-RRR]:*
> My custom built PC tower.. (Powerful Gaming Computer)..
> View attachment 197769
> 
> View attachment 197777
> 
> View attachment 197785
> 
> 
> *[Moosehead14]:* Hi Again
> It does "Not" look like you have the required air flow "Cooling" for your (x2) Digitax control units..
> Using either "Positive Pressure" -OR- "Negative Pressure" cooling will "Improve" your Digitrax units..
> 
> *[wvgca]:* Question
> What are you doing here in this "Thread" ??
> You have "No" experience at all when it comes to "Digitrax" or the PM42..
> 
> *[time warp]:* Question
> What are you doing here in this "Thread" ??
> You must be following me to be a useless "Heckler" wasting everyone’s time..
> You have "No" experience at all whe
> n it comes to *[DCC]..*
> Stick your fat nose somewhere else and maybe start helping others..
> 
> 
> ......


ED, 
#1 You do not dictate to anyone what thread an individual can view or comment on.
#2 You are ASSUMING that because I'm not using DCC now that I have No DCC experience.
#3 Most of us do not feel it necessary or proper to constantly list our resume in order to attempt to qualify our comments.
#4 If you were a real man, you would apologize for the smart mouthed Alzheimers comment you made to wvgca-.
#5 You have NO idea who I may or may not have helped among members of this forum.


----------



## ED-RRR

*[wvgca] --> Questions ??*



wvgca said:


> ED-RRR trust me,
> origional ATX spec supply *blew air in*, google it if you want ...


*Question: (#1)*
Your "Posting #53" Yesterday, 07:28 PM..
Last edited by wvgca; Today at 05:32 AM.
I read both (x2) postings from "Yesterday" and "Today"..
Why are the (x2) postings now totally *"Different" ??*

*Question: (#2)*
At least I always get (100%) proof, before doing any "Posts"..
Without actual proven documents or pictures, can anything from *[wvgca]* be (100%) *"True" ??*

*Question: (#3)*
All of us reading this "Thread" are still waiting..
Where are actual documented "Pictures" proving your *"Theory" ?? *
--> *blew air in*..
or just wasting our space and time in this "Thread" !!
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Proof.. Only What We Ask..*



time warp said:


> #4 If you were a real man, you would apologize for the smart mouthed Alzheimers comment you made to wvgca-.


*[time warp]: *
This is a *[DCC]* "Forum"..
What are you still doing here ?? *[DCC]*..

*Question: (#1)*
*[wvgca]* is presently still being in this "Forum"..
Why has *[wvgca]* not proven his *blew air in *"Theory" ??
......


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> *[time warp]: *
> This is a *[DCC]* "Forum"..
> What are you still doing here ?? *[DCC]*..
> 
> *Question: (#1)*
> *[wvgca]* is presently still being in this "Forum"..
> Why has *[wvgca]* not proven his *blew air in *"Theory" ??
> ......


Thanks, MarkR, you are spot on my friend.
And thank you,Ed, for teaching us about orifices


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] Scenery Help --> (Trees)..*

A vast majority of model train builders use Woodland Scenics..
This manufacture makes many great products..
*Woodland Scenics:*
http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/

For super high detail I have purchased "SuperTree" from Scenic Express..
This manufacture also sells great landscaping products.. 
*Scenic Express..*
http://www.scenicexpress.com/








*====================================================================================*







......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> A vast majority of model train builders use Woodland Scenics..
> This manufacture makes many great products..
> *Woodland Scenics:*
> http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/
> 
> For super high detail I have purchased "SuperTree" from Scenic Express..
> This manufacture also sells great landscaping products..
> *Scenic Express..*
> http://www.scenicexpress.com/
> 
> View attachment 198529
> 
> *====================================================================================*
> View attachment 198537
> 
> ......


ED-RRR

I recently discovered ScenicExpress and obtained their catalog.

At 339 pages it was a bit overwhelming.

I have ordered a number of "sample/starter packs" and single quantities of a number of other items to get them in hand and see what they are like up close and what they are like to work with.

I did find a really nice flexible foam retaining wall product which I tried and liked. 

See attached.


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] --> Tortoise Switch Machines..*



fcwilt said:


> Hi,
> I forgot to mention that the Cobalt switch machines proved so unreliable
> that I replaced them all with Tortoise devices which (so far) have worked just fine.


I was very surprised that the Cobalt switch machines proved to be unreliable..
I am presently "Modifying" my (x27) Tortoise switch machines..

*Modification: (#1)*
As per CTI - Model Railroad Computer Control.. [DCC] Electronic Noise Reduction.. 
http://www.cti-electronics.com/appnotes.htm
--> Noise Reduction Techniques
Installing a small capacitor (0.1 uF) across the motor leads.. 









*Modification: (#2)*
I have found that 12.V-DC power supply to the Tortoise switch machines
- Can be quite noisy.. (Internal Motor/Gear Noise)..
- Also moves way too fast.. (Non Prototype)..
- Each Tortoise switch machine operates totally differently.. (Different Manufacture Variables)..
Install the required small "Mini Variable Pot" to each individual Tortoise switch machine, 
to control the switch track switching "Speed" and to insure "Required" switch track "Pressures".. 








......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> I was very surprised that the Cobalt switch machines proved to be unreliable..


The manufacture even sent me replacements which they said were an improved design and even with them appx 20% either would not move when power was applied OR would not "stall" - the motor kept on running and you could here a distinct "clicking" sound.

At that point I gave up and replaced them.

Frederick


----------



## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> A vast majority of model train builders use Woodland Scenics..
> This manufacture makes many great products..
> *Woodland Scenics:*
> http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/


I think that's a pretty big stretch to say "the vast majority".

They are fairly common, yes, primarily due to their presence in many hobby stores. Their armatures, with a little work with poly fiber and leaf foliage don't make bad trees.

I'm partial to the Scenic Express foliage myself, and use MicroMark's black poly fiber and natural sedum armatures that I gather in my back yard.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

Lots of interesting information on this thread, but unfortunately its in the DCC area under an obscure topic, so probably won't be seen by folks that could use it. May I suggest we keep this thread on topic?

Moosehead14, did you ever figure out what was causing your PM42 red light to flash frequently?

Mark


----------



## CTValleyRR

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Lots of interesting information on this thread, but unfortunately its in the DCC area under an obscure topic, so probably won't be seen by folks that could use it. May I suggest we keep this thread on topic?
> 
> Moosehead14, did you ever figure out what was causing your PM42 red light to flash frequently?
> 
> Mark


Good point! We're way out in left field here. How did we get on to trees in the DCC thread, anyway?


----------



## fcwilt

CTValleyRR said:


> Good point! We're way out in left field here. How did we get on to trees in the DCC thread, anyway?


ED-RRR asked if I was using any PM42 devices - in response I posted pictures of my layout in the early construction phases to show what I was using.

WVGCA responded and said it look good.

I responded that I was good with the "engineering" side of things but not good with the "creative" side of things (scenery).

That led to ED-RRR posting some things about scenery which included pictures of some trees.

It all actually did sort of follow from the original topic of the thread - the PM42's.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*Off Topic.. (Maybe Not)..*



fcwilt said:


> ED-RRR asked if I was using any PM42 devices - in response I posted pictures of my layout in the early construction phases to show what I was using.
> WVGCA responded and said it look good.
> I responded that I was good with the "engineering" side of things but not good with the "creative side" of things (scenery).
> 
> That led to ED-RRR posting some things about scenery which included pictures of some trees.
> 
> It all actually did sort of follow from the original topic of the thread - the PM42's.
> Frederick


*[fcwilt]:* Hi
I am "Not" at all concerned that we "May" went slightly "Off Topic"..
Go to any of my "Threads" and you will always see the same "Hecklers"..
They will post many (many) "Off Topic" postings only attacking my technical information, my writing technics, etc..
That is "Not" classified as "Off Topic" postings in this "Forum"..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Layout Scenery.. #2*

*[fcwilt]:* Hi
Ask (x100) individuals how they would add scenery to your layout
and you will get (x100) individuals having a different idea..

Actual scale layout scenery is based on many factors:
- Era: (Steam / Diesel)
- Rolling Stock: (Passenger / Freight)
- Terrain: (Flat, Gorges, Hills, Mountains) 
- Country:
- Road Name:

*[ED-RRR]:* My [HO] Layout
- Era: Late 50's to early 60's (Steam and Diesel)
- Rolling Stock: Freight.. (Short 50' Foot Units)
- Terrain: Deep Gorge and Large Hill 
- Country: Ontario, Canada and New York, United States
- Road Name: Canadian National and Grand Trunk

*Special Notes:*
I like the late 50's to early 60's era because all the rolling stock freight was very short..
The diesel locomotives were also quite short..
As you jump ahead to each era (Decade), the diesel locomotives and rolling stock freight, get "Longer" and "Longer"..
This will also require larger track corners and storage yards..

*[fcwilt]: *
My (x3) dimensional layout is "Above" and "Below" the layout track.. 
I may be able to show you a suggested direction to look into..
What are your layout plans ??
- Era: (Steam / Diesel)
- Rolling Stock: (Passenger / Freight)
- Terrain: (Flat, Gorges, Hills, Mountains) 
- Country:
- Road Name:
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[time warp]: *
> This is a *[DCC]* "Forum"..
> What are you still doing here ?? *[DCC]*..
> 
> *Question: (#1)*
> *[wvgca]* is presently still being in this "Forum"..
> Why has *[wvgca]* not proven his *blew air in *"Theory" ??
> ......


ED-RRR .. origional spec ATX computer power supply blowing air into the case is not 'theory' ...
that comes from personal experience .. when i owned the computer stores, I personally assembled probably eight hundred to a thousand computer systems, after when i could justify more technicians, i was still personally supervising around four thousand more systems, these were custom built units, and did not include factory assembled systems ..
my first computer was an altair, serial number 7, that i still have
I don't normally do 'cut and paste' , or random images .. but i did post a link describing the origional atx spec supply as blowing air into the case on to a 'passive' cpu heat sink ... [one WITHOUT a fan] ... but it's obvious that you either didn't read it, or didn't comprehend it ..
so here is the link again that i posted in #46 in this thread
http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm
beyond this, i have no desire to 'prove' my statement , i was just commenting on two incorrect blanket statements made by you


----------



## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> *[fcwilt]:* Hi
> I am "Not" at all concerned that we "May" went slightly "Off Topic"..
> Go to any of my "Threads" and you will always see the same "Hecklers"..
> They will post many (many) "Off Topic" postings only attacking my technical information, my writing technics, etc..
> That is "Not" classified as "Off Topic" postings in this "Forum"..
> ......


Yes, ED, we've noticed that you don't care about anyone's postings but your own.

Unfortunately, this is a web forum, not your own personal how to site, so if you want to participate, you need to observe the etiquette. 

And FCWilt's comment wasn't an attack, but an accurate description of what happened. Also, people don't attack your technical content. But they do correct it when it's inaccurate, which you take too personally.

Learning to read English would be a good skill for you to develop if you want to participate here.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Warning: [wvgca] Is Playing Games In This Thread..*

*[wvgca]: *
I stand "Corrected" that the 286 and 386 home computer (PC) did "Not" have a "Cooling Fan" on the CPU "Motherboard"..
-But-
The 486 was introduced in 1989.. (x27 Years Ago)..
The 486 home computer (PC) did come with a "Cooling Fan" on the "Motherboard" CPU..
TMC ALi M1489 A1 (Vintage) 486 Motherboard /w Am486 DX4-120 CPU + 32MB EDO DRAM.. 

*ATX: = (Advanced Technology eXtended)*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX
Is a motherboard configuration specification developed by Intel in 1995 to improve on previous.. (x21 Years Ago)..









*Posting #25*


wvgca said:


> Nope, wrong ..
> easiest example is the origional *ATX form factor computer power supply ...it sucked the air in the back, and blew it onto the passive CPU heat sink ..*
> millions of them out there ..
> personal knowledge, no google needed ..


ATX computer power supply blowing air into the case.. 

*Posting #30*


ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]:*
> So you are trying to convince me and others that the *computer power supply is blowing "Hot" air "Into" the PC tower !!*
> This will heat up the mother board..
> Not as per supplied manufacture picture..











*Posting #33*


wvgca said:


> That's a pretty image but unfortunately is *not origional spec atx *..
> the origional ones had the fan at the back [blowing in and then across the cpu heat sink],
> again, just personal knowledge .. seen a few of them..


*Posting #42*


wvgca said:


> ED-RRR trust me, origional *ATX spec supply blew air in*, google it if you want ...


*Warning: (#1)*
*[wvgca]* went from (ATX computer power supply) --> (ATX computer towers)..
Has totally changed the "Subject" regarding ATX computer power supply, air flow..

*Posting #46*


wvgca said:


> ED-RRR, something for you to read... http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm


I went to --> [Marklin Model Trains]..
http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm
(#1)
All the ATX power supplies are blowing hot air "Out"..
(#2)
The (x2) top posted pictures *(right)* = "Positive" atmosphere computer tower..
(#3)
The (x1) bottom posted picture *(wrong)* = "Negative" atmosphere computer tower..

*Posting #51*


wvgca said:


> *not my pictures... never posted those ...*
> no idea where those came from ..
> they show as belonging to post 1191761, which is your post #48 here
> i don't normally do 'cut and paste'
> 
> i think you're more confused than normal


I found this information from *[wvgca]* Posting #46..
*[wvgca]:* Told me to read 
http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm
And I am the one that is more confused than normal..

*Posting #70*


wvgca said:


> ED-RRR .. origional spec *ATX computer power supply blowing air into the case is not 'theory' * ...
> that comes from personal experience .. when i owned the computer stores, ......


I *[ED-RRR]* have posted actual manufacturing technical ATX computer power supply "Air Flow"..
*[wvgca]:* Has only posted his "Theory" without any actual "Proof"..

*Posting #70*


wvgca said:


> .. but i did post a link describing the *origional atx spec supply as blowing air into the case* on to a 'passive' cpu heat sink ...
> .. so here is the link again that i posted in #46 in this thread
> http://www.heatsink-guide.com/casecool.htm
> beyond this, i have no desire to 'prove' my statement ,
> i was just commenting on two incorrect blanket statements made by you


*Warning: (#2)*
Again *[wvgca]* went from (ATX computer power supply) --> (ATX computer towers)..
Again has totally changed the "Subject" regarding ATX computer power supply, air flow..

*Question:* (#1)
Are you totally "Confused" what *[wvgca]* has posted in this "Thread" ??
*Question:* (#2)
Did *[wvgca]* resolve any of your "Cooling" [DCC] power supply issues ??
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Unresolved Quotes..*

*Posting #59*


time warp said:


> And thank you,Ed, for teaching us about orifices


*Posting #66*


CTValleyRR said:


> Good point! We're way out in left field here.
> How did we get on to trees in the DCC thread, anyway?


Both *[time warp]* and *[CTValleyRR] *in this "Thread",
are more concerned about my *[ED-RRR]* postings..
While the (x2) of them do "Not" realize that *[wvgca]* is "Posting" total confusing/conflicting "Information"..

*Question: (#1)*
Why has not *[time warp]* and *[CTValleyRR] *"Not" challenged *[wvgca]* postings regarding ATX power supply ??

*Question: (#2)*
Why does *[time warp]* and *[CTValleyRR] *"Totally" agree with* [wvgca] *postings ??
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Layout Scenery.. #3 (Backdrop Scenery)..*

*[fcwilt]:* Hi Again
I am quite sure that you will "Not" reply any more in this "Thread".. (A.O.K.)..
Since there are "No" rules in this "Forum", I will continue sending you "Information" in this "Thread"..

*[ED-RRR]: *
The location and the way my layout is built, I had to use (x2) large "Actual Pictures"., for my backdrop scene..
http://backdropwarehouse.com/indexbdwh.htm









*[fcwilt]: *
I actually do "Like" how you mounted "White" ribbed wall panel for a backdrop scene..
From a perspective point of "View", this looks like an endless "Horizon"..








......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *[fcwilt]:* Hi Again
> I am quite sure that you will "Not" reply any more in this "Thread".. (A.O.K.)..
> 
> *[ED-RRR]: *
> The location and the way my layout is built, I had to use (x2) large "Actual Pictures"., for my backdrop scene..
> http://backdropwarehouse.com/indexbdwh.htm
> 
> View attachment 199393
> 
> 
> *[fcwilt]: *
> I actually do "Like" how you mounted "White" ribbed wall panel for a backdrop scene..
> From a perspective point of "View", this looks like an endless "Horizon"..
> 
> View attachment 199401
> 
> ......


Hi ED-RRR

That picture was taken early on during construction. Since then I have put up the backdrop photo.

The idea of a backdrop was suggested by my wife late in the game.

I got mine from http://www.backdropjunction.com/

They had one that was just about the right size - a little too long and a little too high.

Here is a current picture.

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR .
it wasn't my intention to deliberately confuse you, or other readers of this thread ..
to clarify:
in general [NOT all] consumer grade desktop currently sold exhaust air out of the back
in general [NOT all] computers CPU's currently sold have CPU mounted fan / heat sink combinations
exceptions are some [less than half] of notebooks / laptops, and most tablets
another exception are industrial or harsh environment systems that normally have filtered input air and positive pressure enclosures , including most 'server' installations 
Also, in cases of high heat being generated in high end CPU's , there is more of a tendency to consider Thermo Electric Coupler cooling, and in some cases water cooling, 
especially when overclocking ..


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> *Posting #59*
> 
> 
> *Posting #66*
> 
> 
> Both *[time warp]* and *[CTValleyRR] *in this "Thread",
> are more concerned about my *[ED-RRR]* postings..
> While the (x2) of them do "Not" realize that *[wvgca]* is "Posting" total confusing/conflicting "Information"..
> 
> *Question: (#1)*
> Why has not *[time warp]* and *[CTValleyRR] *"Not" challenged *[wvgca]* postings regarding ATX power supply ??
> 
> *Question: (#2)*
> Why does *[time warp]* and *[CTValleyRR] *"Totally" agree with* [wvgca] *postings ??
> ......


We're not confused


----------



## Moosehead14

WOW! For whatever reason, i haven't been getting email notifications about new posts in my thread, but holy smokes...did my original post ever take a left turn!! You know it is a good campfire discussion when you have no idea what you started talking about in the first place!!

Thank you everybody for the nice comments on the box. The four holes in the face and the big hole in the top deck is for expansion into another booster and PM42 or switch machines if we decide to go that way.

Yes, there are two fans in the middle section. Blowing and sucking.  Just power transformers, a power bar and the cooling fins of the digitrax units down there so I was just looking for airflow and didn't care about any sort of pressure. 

Yes, the extra green wire out of the booster is going to the PM42. I wasn't sure where to run it, in case we expanded into the new booster right away, so instead of poking holes into the deck needlessly, I am waiting until I see where we go first.

I have been out of town, so I haven't solved the programming track problem yet. It might just be my tsunami decoder being a pain, but stand by for further.

As for the the PM42 on our N scale layout, I again haven't heard why the light is blinking so "expressively". I still think there is something to the constant DCC signal causing it, but I haven't had a chance to hook up the JMRI to it yet.

PS. JMRI is awesome. I am really just tapping into it, but I think it is going to help out a lot of club members get into the DCC and program their own locos without the spectre of CVs!


----------



## wvgca

Moosehead14 said:


> PS. JMRI is awesome. I am really just tapping into it, but I think it is going to help out a lot of club members get into the DCC and program their own locos without the spectre of CVs!


JMRI is an excellent program, the developers have been really good about bug fixes, and continual upgrades ..
and the price is right


----------



## time warp

Thanks for the update, Moosehead14!


----------



## ED-RRR

*[time warp] and [wvgca].. Contributions..*

*Posting #44*


time warp said:


> *Pressurized control cabinets are industry standard.* Of course you haven't run across that in your usual"
> I stole it from the web so I'll post it here as my own idea" copy and paste info- marathon.


Absolutely no "Proof" in this "False" statement.. 
Without any (Copy and Paste), there is no "Proof" that your statement is (100%) "True"..

*Posting #77*


time warp said:


> We're not confused


Then why did *[wvgca]* constantly state this without any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" ?? 

*Posting #70*


wvgca said:


> ED-RRR .. *origional spec ATX computer power supply blowing air into the case* is not 'theory' ...


And you *[time warp]* totally believed it, along with some others..

I am still waiting for *[wvgca]* to post any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" showing a ATX computer power supply,
blowing *"Hot"* air into the computer case..

Just like in *[wvgca]* Posting #76,
where he is "Again" changing the "Subject Matter" into a "Different" computer area..
This will allow *[wvgca]* to hide his big posting "Error" into past history..

*P.S.*
ATX (Advanced Technology eXtended) is a motherboard configuration specification developed by Intel in (1995).. 

I could even show an actual picture where a (x486) computer power supply introduced in (1989) 
was blowing the *"Hot"* air "Out"..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt].. Layout..*



fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR
> That picture was taken early on during construction. Since then I have put up the backdrop photo.
> The idea of a backdrop was suggested by my wife late in the game.


*(#1)*
Yes, your wife has "Greatly" improved the back ground scenery on your model train layout..

*(#2)*
After looking at your picture. Posting #75 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199409&d=1467562632
You like many different types of "Locomotives" and "Era's".. (Why Not Have Different Era's)..
- European Steam Locomotives..
- American Steam Locomotives..
- American Diesel Locomotives..
......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *(#1)*
> Yes, your wife has "Greatly" improved the back ground scenery on your model train layout..
> 
> *(#2)*
> After looking at your picture. Posting #75
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199409&d=1467562632
> You like many different types of "Locomotives" and "Era's".. (Why Not Have Different Era's)..
> - European Steam Locomotives..
> - American Steam Locomotives..
> - American Diesel Locomotives..
> ......


ED-RRR

Thanks - my wife was correct (as usual) - a backdrop was a good idea.

I admit that I am a sucker for interesting locomotives and have purchased more then is sensible.

The layout will "officially" be the B&O in some alternate universe so I can run locos the real B&O never ran.

The plan is to eventually letter/re-letter all of them for the B&O.

If I cannot find the loco I want lettered for B&O I try to find a undecorated one. 

The container cars you see are part of my "educational" collection.

If visitors express an real interest in railroading I can bring out current era locos and cars to show them how things have changed from the days of steam.

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

Moosehead14 said:


> Yes, there are two fans in the middle section. Blowing and sucking.  Just power transformers, a power bar and the cooling fins of the digitrax units down there so I was just looking for airflow and didn't care about any sort of pressure.


I think you can envision how negative pressure in an enclosure would tend to draw dust in from every opening.

If you already have a fans "blowing and sucking" you might want to consider adjusting the rpm of the "sucking" fan to try to insure positive pressure inside.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] Scenery Help --> (Track)..*

After looking at your picture. Posting #75 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199409&d=1467562632
You have "Black Foam" under "All" your model train tracks..

*Fact: (#1)*
Model train track "Rails" comes with "Shiny" silver color.. (Metal Nickel Silver - Track)..

*Fact: (#2)*
Model train track "Rails" are supported with sleepers or ties, that is a "Shiny" brown plastic color..

*Fact: (#3)*
To hide the "Black Foam" under "All" your track rails..









My Professional Looking Track Procedure:
To have the model train track look (100%) realistic..

*(#1)*
Very "Lightly" spray paint the track rails and track ties a very dull "Brown" color..
Use a "Water Soluble" paint so as "Not" to damage the "Plastic" railroad ties.. 









*(#2)*
Use a "Non-Abrasive" track cleaner to remove the "Top" painted track surfaces..




- Dry cork applicators to remove the "Top" painted surfaces..
- A soaked cork applicator with C-CRC (2-26) to increase [DCC] electrical conductivity..

*Warning:*
Do "Not" use any small type of "Hobby Air Compressors" for spray painting.. 
These very small "Hobby Air Compressors" will "Not" supply the required "Constant" required air flow pressure, for spray painting..
For a "Constant" required air flow pressure, a "Reservoir" air tank is "Required"..
I am talking from actual spray painting experiences..
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR ..sigh ..
You pretty much have the skin flayed off of this dead horse,[ATX Airflow] and it's nowhere's near the origional posters question that started this thread .
apologies to Moosehead14 ... 

1st . Yes, it's normal for harsh environment and many Industrial rated enclosures to be a 'positive pressure enclosure' receiving filtered input air, and in some cases [such as wet area usage or possibly damaging vapours] to be totally sealed, and are cooled with TEC junction, same principle as 12V portable fridges ..
No pictures, but I do work with these kind of things on a regular basis, so in my case it's actual hands on experience as opposed to 'cut and paste' of someone else's opinion, or document ..

2nd, as I stated previously, not ALL power supplies 'blow air out', citing the common origional ATX [Intel 0.9 /1.0] computer power supply, in response to your incorrect statement in post #21 in this thead ..

*"All" computers and power supplies with a cooling fan blows the "Hot" air "Out"..*

This is a blanket statement made by you, that while may be true in your experience, and in the majority of cases, is not a factually completely accurate statement in the real world ..and Yes, I actually do have physical 'hands on' experience of this

and in reference I would refer you to the following page,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX#Airflow

If you unable to find that page, I am enclosing a 'cut and paste' of the applicable section of that page here

_Airflow
The original ATX specification called for a power supply to be located near to the CPU with the power supply fan drawing in cooling air from outside the chassis and directing it onto the processor. It was thought that in this configuration, cooling of the processor would be achievable without the need of an active heatsink.[2] This recommendation was removed from later specifications; modern ATX power supplies usually exhaust air from the case._


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> *Posting #44*
> 
> 
> Absolutely no "Proof" in this "False" statement..
> Without any (Copy and Paste), there is no "Proof" that your statement is (100%) "True"..
> 
> *Posting #77*
> 
> 
> Then why did *[wvgca]* constantly state this without any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" ??
> 
> *Posting #70*
> 
> 
> And you *[time warp]* totally believed it, along with some others..
> 
> I am still waiting for *[wvgca]* to post any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" showing a ATX computer power supply,
> blowing *"Hot"* air into the computer case..
> 
> Just like in *[wvgca]* Posting #76,
> where he is "Again" changing the "Subject Matter" into a "Different" computer area..
> This will allow *[wvgca]* to hide his big posting "Error" into past history..
> 
> *P.S.*
> ATX (Advanced Technology eXtended) is a motherboard configuration specification developed by Intel in (1995)..
> 
> I could even show an actual picture where a (x486) computer power supply introduced in (1989)
> was blowing the *"Hot"* air "Out"..
> ......


Well, Ed, I guess because you are now stuck on something you can't comprehend you are unable to remember the OP on this thread. I didn't forget.
I won't even attempt to dissect the ridiculous assemblages of words and pasting that you feel compelled to bless us with.( BTW, You must be really good at decoupage.)
I've said here before that it isn't necessary or proper for one to constantly list their resume to attempt to appear credible. 
I don't need to "copy and paste" anything to prove a point, my credibility ,or lack thereof, is manifest through the discussions and friendships I have enjoyed with others on this forum.
I work in Industrial vacuum, Vacuum heat treating equipment for tool hardening, fixturing, weaponry, aerospace(military and civilian), and land based turbine generators to name a few.
I have my hands in PRESSURIZED CONTROL CABINETS NEARLY EVERY DAY. I troubleshoot relay logic, PLC/mechanical interface,and Web based controls, as well as setpoint sequencing and thermal controls EVERY DAY!
Pneumatics, hydraulics, and inert gases are involved as well. I work alone most days because of the mental stress in finding and solving operational problems. 
You can take your "copy and paste" proof and pound it out your porthole.
Wvgca- is no lightweight. You are just too self absorbed to know that.
And just so you know- my laptop has a cooling fan that blows out, much like the hot air from your mouth. My $20,000.00 Helium mass spectrometer, which is with me now, has [X2----] cooling fans pushing IN.
You don't know who you are talking down to on this forum.


----------



## ED-RRR

*[wvgca].. Another Forum Technical Adviser.. (Total B.S.)..*

*Posting #86*


wvgca said:


> 2nd, as I stated previously, *not *ALL power supplies 'blow air out', citing the common origional ATX [Intel 0.9 /1.0] computer power supply,
> in response to your incorrect statement in *post #21* in this thead ..


*Posting #21*
[Ed-RRR] --> Question Sucking Unfiltered Air ??

*[wvgca]:*
" as I stated previously, *not* ALL power supplies 'blow air out'" ??

*[wvgca]:* Question
"When" and "Where" in this "Thread" did you actually state this ?? .. 
What Posting (#) ?? .. (Total B.S.)..

*Posting #70*


wvgca said:


> ED-RRR .. origional spec *ATX computer power supply blowing air into the case* is not 'theory' ...


*[wvgca]:*
I am still waiting for *[wvgca]* to post any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" showing a ATX computer power supply,
blowing *"Hot"* air into the computer case..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*More: Unwanted Related Model Train Building..*



time warp said:


> Well, Ed, I guess because you are now stuck on something you can't comprehend you are unable to remember the OP on this thread. I didn't forget.
> ... *Bla Bla Bla* ...


*[time warp]:*
Stick your "Fat Nose" elsewhere..
How about changing your behavior to actually "Help" Others in this "Forum"...
......


----------



## wvgca

time warp said:


> You can take your "copy and paste" proof and pound it out your porthole.


Don't think that part of your reply is appropriate here ..
After all, this is a MODEL TRAIN forum,
not a _model ship_ forum ... 

ps... I just used *bold* and _italic_, if you notice me starting to use coloured text, remind me to take my meds


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> After looking at your picture. Posting #75
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=199409&d=1467562632
> You have "Black Foam" under "All" your model train tracks..
> 
> *Fact: (#1)*
> Model train track "Rails" comes with "Shiny" silver color.. (Metal Nickel Silver - Track)..
> 
> *Fact: (#2)*
> Model train track "Rails" are supported with sleepers or ties, that is a "Shiny" brown plastic color..
> 
> *Fact: (#3)*
> To hide the "Black Foam" under "All" your track rails..
> 
> View attachment 199761
> 
> 
> My Professional Looking Track Procedure:
> To have the model train track look (100%) realistic..
> 
> *(#1)*
> Very "Lightly" spray paint the track rails and track ties a very dull "Brown" color..
> Use a "Water Soluble" paint so as "Not" to damage the "Plastic" railroad ties..
> 
> View attachment 199769
> 
> 
> *(#2)*
> Use a "Non-Abrasive" track cleaner to remove the "Top" painted track surfaces..
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReSUSruSVVY
> - Dry cork applicators to remove the "Top" painted surfaces..
> - A soaked cork applicator with C-CRC (2-26) to increase [DCC] electrical conductivity..
> 
> *Warning:*
> Do "Not" use any small type of "Hobby Air Compressors" for spray painting..
> These very small "Hobby Air Compressors" will "Not" supply the required "Constant" required air flow pressure, for spray painting..
> For a "Constant" required air flow pressure, a "Reservoir" air tank is "Required"..
> I am talking from actual spray painting experiences..
> ......


Correction, not all model railroad track is nickel silver. Steel and brass are still widely used in HO. 
Correction, some model railroad track has brown ties, my Atlas track, for instance, has dull black ties, not shiny.(I'm looking at it right now). I just looked at a TYCO curved rerailer made in Hong Kong, shiny black ties.
Correction, the use of water soluble paint is a non issue as far as the plastic ties, solvent based coatings won't harm the plastic unless the coating(paint) is excessively thinned with a lacquer type solvent. 
You are however correct in using water based coating on the foam, solvents will attack it.
Isn't it also advisable to clean the inside of the rail head?
Do not DCC, DC and AC all require conductivity,IE clean track?


----------



## time warp

wvgca said:


> Don't think that part of your reply is appropriate here ..
> After all, this is a MODEL TRAIN forum,
> not a _model ship_ forum ...
> 
> ps... I just used *bold* and _italic_, if you notice me starting to use coloured text, remind me to take my meds


Two words: McKeen car!:laugh: :laugh::laugh:


----------



## wvgca

time warp said:


> Two words: McKeen car!:laugh: :laugh::laugh:


I had to look that one up, never heard of them before ...
pretty unique rail cars ... different
So I stand [actually I'm sitting] corrected


----------



## time warp

I would have figured you would know that. Everybody should have one of those, they look like something Capt. Nemo would have built.
And yes, please don't post in Technicolor.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi ED-RRR,

I have not yet started (in earnest) the process of painting/ballasting my track.

I don't much care for ballasting and I find too many excuses to put it off.

I did do two feet of double track on the upper level which included two back-to-back single crossovers.

Wasn't my best work and I have a certain amount of cleanup to do before I will be happy.

And leaning over to reach that track was hard on my back. I miss being 40.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*Model Train Tracks..*

First of all I was talking directly to *[fcwilt]..*

*Posting #91*


time warp said:


> Correction, not all model railroad track is nickel silver. Steel and brass are still widely used in HO.


Since you do not use a *[DCC]* operating system, you would not know that "Brass Track" is "Not" recommended for *[DCC]* operations..
Brass when it oxidizes creates a "Non Conductive" compound..
Nickel Silver rail when it oxidizes creates a compound that is still "Conductive"..

*Posting #91*


time warp said:


> Correction, some model railroad track has brown ties, my Atlas track, for instance, has dull black ties, not shiny.(I'm looking at it right now).
> I just looked at a TYCO curved rerailer made in Hong Kong, shiny black ties.


Original "New" railroad ties are covered in "Black" tar..
In time the railroad ties will become "Brown"..
That is why Walthers Trains sells dull "Brown" railway ties..
I am also quite sure that *[fcwilt]* wants a professional looking layout and "Not" toy like..









*Posting #91*


time warp said:


> Correction, the use of water soluble paint is a non issue as far as the plastic ties, solvent based coatings won't harm the plastic unless the coating(paint) is excessively thinned with a lacquer type solvent.
> You are however correct in using water based coating on the foam, solvents will attack it.


Why did you just contradict yourself ??
Besides cleaning a spray gun after using water soluble paint is much faster and cheaper, "Not" requiring special cleaning fluids..

*Posting #91*


time warp said:


> Isn't it also advisable to clean the inside of the rail head?


Of course it would help to clean the inside of the (x2) rails
-But-
How can this be achieved on a large model train layout where excess is sometimes restrictable to reach.. 
......


----------



## time warp

ED, you are talking about scenery and track weathering aren't you? Which naturally would be included in a thread about troubleshooting a blinking light problem on a DCC system.
When you are posting scenery suggestions they are not controlled by DC, AC, or DC C.
Scenery and weathering tips have no scale or gauge. Because you claim to have a DCC operating system you just presume that the entire world has DCC.
You stated that all model railroad track was a silvery color with brown ties. I simply said that it is not that way, there are many types of model railroad track. Some with brown ties, some with dull black ties, and some with shiny black ties.
You said that it was necessary to use a water based paint so it wouldn't damage the plastic ties of the track. And I said solvent based paint will not hurt the track unless it's overly thin.
When you're posting things like this on the Forum you need to remember that there are many many different people that read this information and you need to be clear about what you're saying. Your remarks indicate that the only way that you can weather track is if its nickel silver and is on a DCC system. And that is simply not the case.


----------



## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> 
> I have not yet started (in earnest) the process of painting/ballasting my track.
> 
> I don't much care for ballasting and I find too many excuses to put it off.
> 
> I did do two feet of double track on the upper level which included two back-to-back single crossovers.
> 
> Wasn't my best work and I have a certain amount of cleanup to do before I will be happy.
> 
> And leaning over to reach that track was hard on my back. I miss being 40.
> 
> Frederick


t's not that hard to do, depending on what stage that you are in completing your layout ..
I would up doing mine in pretty much two evenings, [this is my second layout]
Once track operation was reliable, I cleaned the layout off, and first evening i used an airbrush held at at fairly low angle to do the sides of the track, and ties, especially if it was a 'viewable' side .. and used a mix of krylon paint, [solvent based], and a regular no tank type small compressor ..
the next evening i used a small brush for applying a white /gray wash to the ties, and then cleaned the rail tops ..
this was done before ballasting in my case ...
there are many different methods, just choose one that you are comfortable with, and seems 'right' to you .. enjoy 

ps .. if you want to continue on this subject, it would probably be best to start a new thread ,.


----------



## ED-RRR

*[time warp].. More Total Useless Information..*



time warp said:


> ED, you are talking about scenery and track weathering aren't you?
> Which naturally would be included in a thread about troubleshooting a blinking light problem on a *DCC system.*


*[time warp] *
Posting #91
You posted "Total" useless information.. 

*[time warp] *
As you stated, this is a [*DCC]* model train section..
Since you have "No" personnel experience using *[DCC]*,
what are you doing here in this "Thread" ??

*[time warp] *
Since "All" the rules and regulations in this "Forum" are broken,
including "Politics" and "Religion", anything can be posted..
......


----------



## time warp

ED-RRR said:


> *[time warp] *
> Posting #91
> You posted "Total" useless information..
> 
> *[time warp] *
> As you stated, this is a [*DCC]* model train section..
> Since you have "No" personnel experience using *[DCC]*,
> what are you doing here in this "Thread" ??
> 
> *[time warp] *
> Since "All" the rules and regulations in this "Forum" are broken,
> including "Politics" and "Religion", anything can be posted..
> ......


Politically Religious DCC Scenery?


----------



## time warp

I'm going to 2nd the suggestion that the Scenery discussion be continued elsewhere.
Also, MTF members need to remember that postings in this thread are open to all.
Personal discussion should be confined to P.M.'s from member to member.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Spray Painting..*



wvgca said:


> ...... and used a mix of krylon paint, [solvent based].......


You can "Only" use Krylon *"Fusion" *
--> For "Plastic" aerosol "Spray Paint"..
How does Krylon "Fusion" react with "Foam" track bedding ??



wvgca said:


> and a regular no tank type small compressor ..


To have a "Constant" air pressure supply for a spray gun,
"All" professionals use an air compressor with an
air "Storage Tank" , 
a "Condensation" humid (water) separator 
and an air pressure "Regulator" to control the required constant air "Pressure"..



wvgca said:


> ps .. if you want to continue on this subject, it would probably be best to start a new thread ,


To have more "Morons" post "Incorrect" outdated information,
like yourself..
......


----------



## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> t's not that hard to do, depending on what stage that you are in completing your layout ..
> I would up doing mine in pretty much two evenings, [this is my second layout]
> Once track operation was reliable, I cleaned the layout off, and first evening i used an airbrush held at at fairly low angle to do the sides of the track, and ties, especially if it was a 'viewable' side .. and used a mix of krylon paint, [solvent based], and a regular no tank type small compressor ..
> the next evening i used a small brush for applying a white /gray wash to the ties, and then cleaned the rail tops ..
> this was done before ballasting in my case ...
> there are many different methods, just choose one that you are comfortable with, and seems 'right' to you .. enjoy
> 
> 
> ps .. if you want to continue on this subject, it would probably be best to start a new thread ,.
> 
> View attachment 199873


Thanks and you are right - time to stop messing up the OPs thread.

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> To have more "Morons" post "Incorrect" outdated information,
> like yourself..
> ......


Hi ED-RRR,

We've been getting along pretty well lately.

But I wish you wouldn't resort to calling folks names.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] Track Cleaning..*



fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> ...... And leaning over to reach that track was hard on my back. I miss being 40 .......


Like myself, we both have restrictions when bending over for a long time..
When using *[DCC]* operations, having a clean electrical conductive track is a (#1) priority..
Besides, it will be very difficult to clean your hidden track.. (Spiral Down).. 

*(#1A) *
My "Present" track cleaning unit..
Tony's Train Exchange
https://tonystrains.com/
https://tonystrains.com/cmx-clean-machine/
- CMX Clean Machine.. (Non Abrasive Track Cleaner)..

*(#1B) *
My "Recommended" track cleaning fluid..
- CRC 2-26 an "Excellent" electrical cleaning product.. (Increases Electrical Conductivity)..

*(#1C) *
Paint and decal this into a tank car that can used "All" the time..
Being (100%) brass will require special painting procedures..
















*(#2A)*
What I am presently looking at..
Manufactured by DAPOL multi rail cleaning car.. (United Kingdom).. 
I really like the "Vacuum" feature..
http://www.dapol.co.uk/ 
Also now sold directly in the United States..
http://www.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/hotrackcleaningcar.htm









*(#2B)*
*Warning:*
Do "Not" use the "Abrasive" rotary track disk cleaner..
This will add very fine scratches to the track rails, increasing track "Oxidization"..
I would suggest to "Only" using the soft rotating disk.. (Non - Abrasive)..









*(#2C)*
*Caution:*
I am not impressed with the tiny sponge applicator, adding the cleaning fluid..
It will also wipe clean the track while adding the cleaning fluid..
This tiny "Soft" small sponge will eventually break down, leaving small pieces of sponge on the track.. 









I would still "Highly" recommend still using the CMX Clean Machine (Non Abrasive Track Cleaner)
to wipe clean the tracks and to add a electrical conductive liquid to protect the tracks from "Oxidization"..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Incorrect Information..*



fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> We've been getting along pretty well lately.
> But I wish you wouldn't resort to calling folks names.
> Frederick


*[fcwilt]:*
Sorry, but there are some individuals, in this "Forum"
giving totally "False" information..

If these some "Individuals", in this "Forum" are not actually *"Known",*
how can a "Beginner" in model train railroading,
know what is actually total "BS" posted from "Members" in this forum
-And- 
what is actually true, without "Knowing" (Model Train Beginner) who is posting actual facts..
......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *(#1A) *
> My "Present" track cleaning unit..
> Tony's Train Exchange
> https://tonystrains.com/cmx-clean-machine/
> *(#1B) *
> ......


Hi ED-RRR,

I've followed up here with some info on the cars I have tried:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=1199257#post1199257


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *[fcwilt]:*
> Sorry, but there are some individuals, in this "Forum"
> giving totally "False" information..
> 
> If these some "Individuals", in this "Forum" are not actually *"Known",*
> how can a "Beginner" in model train railroading,
> know what is actually total "BS" posted from "Members" in this forum
> -And-
> what is actually true, without "Knowing" (Model Train Beginner) who is posting actual facts..
> ......


Hi ED-RRR,

I understand that posts can be made that are misleading, questionable, incorrect, foolish, unwise, wrong, dumb, stupid, idiotic, etc.

But that doesn't mean you have to resort to name calling.

A person may be ignorant without being stupid.

So please try to refrain - thanks.

Frederick


----------



## CTValleyRR

fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> 
> I understand that posts can be made that are misleading, questionable, incorrect, foolish, unwise, wrong, dumb, stupid, idiotic, etc.
> 
> But that doesn't mean you have to resort to name calling.
> 
> A person may be ignorant without being stupid.
> 
> So please try to refrain - thanks.
> 
> Frederick


I've been trying to tell him for months that it's all about the behavior and presentation and not about the content.

Maybe he'll listen to you.


----------



## fcwilt

CTValleyRR said:


> I've been trying to tell him for months that it's all about the behavior and presentation and not about the content.
> 
> Maybe he'll listen to you.


I'm also pretty sure I'm going to win the mega-power-ball-set-for-life-lottery.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] --> Updates..*

I know that direct attacks against any individual is "Not" sportsman’s like..
-But-
Some individuals in this "Forum" now use it as:
- Posting incorrect unproven information.. 
- A media attack forum.. 

*Posting #86*


wvgca said:


> Posting #70
> QUOTE=wvgca;1194785]
> ED-RRR .. origional spec *ATX computer power supply blowing air into the case* is not 'theory' ...


*[wvgca]:*
I am still waiting for *[wvgca]* to post any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" showing a ATX computer power supply,
blowing *"Hot"* air into the computer case..



time warp said:


> .. Well, Ed, ...
> .. You can take your "copy and paste" proof and * "pound it out your porthole"..*
> .. Wvgca- is no lightweight. You are just too self absorbed to know that..
> .. My $20,000.00 Helium mass spectrometer, which is with me now, has [X2----] cooling fans pushing IN..
> .. You don't know who you are talking down to on this forum..


*[time warp]:*
Are you an example of this "Forum" (2016) telling me to *pound it out my porthole..*
Why you did you change the "Main" subject from an ATX computer power supply to an "Unrelated" subject.. (Helium Mass Spectrometer) ??



CTValleyRR said:


> I've been trying to tell him for months that it's all about the behavior and presentation and not about the content.


*[CTValleyRR]:*
Have you actually "Posted" any actual "Technical" facts in this "Thread ??
-OR-
Are you only here to just "Heckle" me ??
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] Scenery Help --> (Track Ballasting)..*



fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> I have not yet started (in earnest) the process of painting/ballasting my track.
> I don't much care for ballasting and I find too many excuses to put it off.
> I did do two feet of double track on the upper level which included two back-to-back single crossovers.
> Wasn't my best work and I have a certain amount of cleanup to do before I will be happy.
> And leaning over to reach that track was hard on my back. I miss being 40.
> Frederick


I know how you feel..
My permanent back injury makes it difficult for me to also do constant bending over..

There are many (many) different ways to add track ballast..
I have come up with this list of supplies that will work best for me and do the best job..

*(#1) Ballast:*
Some individuals will mix (x2) different colors together..









*(#2) Ballast Tool Spreader:*
Many individuals use a spoon or a cup, or a custom made plastic bottle..
Using a ballast tool spreader will be much faster and easier to reach over the track..
MLR Manufacturing makes a very good [HO] scale ballast tool spreader..
The problem is that I heard MLR Manufacturing is now "Closed"..
There are still some other different manufactures making ballast tool spreaders..
The MLR ballast tool spreader has "Only" (x3) small holes and a back blocker wall.. (Red)..
The other different manufactures making ballast tool spreaders have (x3) "Large" slots..









Looking closely at (Videos) from other different manufactures ballast tool spreaders that have (x3) "Large" slots
a "Lot" of excess ballast is released..
That is why I made my own custom ballast tool spreader with "Only" (x3) small holes and a back blocker wall..
I copied from the MLR ballast tool spreader "Only" having (x3) small holes and a back blocker wall..
I mounted (x3) required spacers on The "Bottom", so as to use the (x2) track rails to alignment the ballast tool spreader.. 
I started with (x3) small holes and did constant testing adding ballast to the track..
Different ballast size reacts differently..
I slowly enlarged the (x3) holes till I achieved what I wanted..
Use a soft "Large" makeup brush to wipe all the railroad ties clean..

*(#3) Ballast Gluing Cohesion:*
Many individuals add the mounting "Glue" directly to the ballast..
Use (70% Isopropyl) Rubbing Alcohol --> *("Not" Over 70% Isopropyl)..*
This will make the glue flow much smoother over the ballast and may/will prevent any glue clumping..
Use a "Fine Mist" spray bottle like the gardeners use to spray water onto plant leaves..
Lightly spray, soaking the ballast..









*(#4) Ballast Gluing:*
Mix a 50/50 ratio of "Wood Glue" and "Water" together..
Using "Warm" water will make the mixture mix together much better, reducing any clumping..
Many individuals use an eye dropper or a custom made plastic bottle..
Using an eye dropper requires "Constant" gluing applications..
Using a "Custom" made plastic bottle may/will "Not" have a good control of the flowing gluing procedure..
I will be using a very large syringe to draw the 50/50 ratio "Glue" from the glue mixing container into the "Gluing Applicator"..
The "Gluing Applicator" is a 250ml "Squeezable" plastic bottle with a custom "Bent" spout.. (Tattoo Wash Clear - Soap Squeeze Bottle)..









*(#5) Ballast Cleaning:*
The "Minimum" time before cleaning "Off" any loose ballast = (x24 Hrs.)..
I would recommend (x48 Hrs.) to insure (100%) that "All" the glue is "Dry".. (Environment Humidity).. 
Very lightly "Vacuum" off any loose ballast..
......


----------



## fcwilt

Hi ED-RRR,

What did you make your spreader from?

I think I might try making one myself.

And using a eye-dropper is indeed tedious. I need to find a squeeze booth like that.

Thanks for the info.

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> 
> What did you make your spreader from?
> 
> I think I might try making one myself.
> 
> And using a eye-dropper is indeed tedious. I need to find a squeeze booth like that.
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Frederick


if you want one of those 'three hole' ballast spreader, I have one, and am finished ballasting ...
free if it will help you out..


----------



## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> if you want one of those 'three hole' ballast spreader, I have one, and am finished ballasting ...
> free if it will help you out..


Did it work fairly well for you?

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> Did it work fairly well for you?
> 
> Frederick


reasonably well, yes ... the amount dropped seemed a little light to me, and worked better at slow speed ...so i opened the holes up a little, and could go faster ... my layout is old era, so ballast was applied lower than tie level .. did maybe two feet at a fill ..
only issue was that the little red dots fell off quite soon, no big issues at all 
I bought a fifty pound bag of fine sand blasting sand at local princess auto, size looked good to me, plus there was quite a bit of nice colour variation
there are some sample photos of the track in my tag line on the bottom , from a few years ago..
i used thinned dap clear caulking [with water, alcohol, and couple of drops of dish soap], i wanted a more flexible end result as compared to the more rigid white glue, primarily to reduce noise


----------



## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> reasonably well, yes ... the amount dropped seemed a little light to me, and worked better at slow speed ...so i opened the holes up a little, and could go faster ... my layout is old era, so ballast was applied lower than tie level .. did maybe two feet at a fill ..
> only issue was that the little red dots fell off quite soon, no big issues at all
> I bought a fifty pound bag of fine sand blasting sand at local princess auto, size looked good to me, plus there was quite a bit of nice colour variation
> there are some sample photos of the track in my tag line on the bottom , from a few years ago..
> i used thinned dap clear caulking [with water, alcohol, and couple of drops of dish soap], i wanted a more flexible end result as compared to the more rigid white glue, primarily to reduce noise


I love to give your spreader a try.

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]:*
> I am still waiting for *[wvgca]* to post any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" showing a ATX computer power supply,
> blowing *"Hot"* air into the computer case..
> ......


patience, grasshopper :laugh:


----------



## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> I love to give your spreader a try.
> 
> Frederick


found a couple of sticky dots ...
just pm me your mailing address when you get a chance


----------



## ED-RRR

*[fcwilt] Scenery Help --> (Track Ballasting)..*



wvgca said:


> .... I bought a fifty pound bag of fine sand blasting sand at local princess auto, size looked good to me, plus there was quite a bit of nice colour variation


In my day, I did a lot of sand blasting modifying the Browning M1919 .30 caliber machine gun..
These remained in service well into the 1990's..
To add detail scenery around my locomotive sanding facility, I used very fine blasting sand..
Sorry, but Princess Auto is only in Canada..

There are many different types blasting media..
http://www.mediablast.com/sandblasting-grit-size-conversion-chart

*(#6) Ballast Size:*
Of course many of us use "Flexible" track..
The ballast will also hold the track into place..
What size are model ballast products ?
Woodland Ballast Fine .020" (0.52mm) = sand blasting grit #54
Woodland Ballast Medium .032" (0.82mm) = sand blasting grit #30









Some "Professional" model builders prefer using much smaller ballast stone size, because it is more "Realistic" to the operating scale..
Not using small rocks, but "Realistic" gravel.. (Prototype)..











wvgca said:


> .... i used thinned dap clear caulking [with water, alcohol, and couple of drops of dish soap....


I also remember a time when drops of dish soap was added to the 50/50 glue to add better "Cohesion"..
Now "Soaking" the ballast with (70% Isopropyl) rubbing alcohol before adding the 50/50 glue, has much better "Cohesion" results..
......


----------



## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> I know that direct attacks against any individual is "Not" sportsman’s like..
> -But-
> Some individuals in this "Forum" now use it as:
> - Posting incorrect unproven information..
> - A media attack forum..
> 
> *Posting #86*
> 
> 
> *[wvgca]:*
> I am still waiting for *[wvgca]* to post any actual "Documents" -OR- "Pictures" showing a ATX computer power supply,
> blowing *"Hot"* air into the computer case..
> 
> 
> 
> *[time warp]:*
> Are you an example of this "Forum" (2016) telling me to *pound it out my porthole..*
> Why you did you change the "Main" subject from an ATX computer power supply to an "Unrelated" subject.. (Helium Mass Spectrometer) ??
> 
> 
> 
> *[CTValleyRR]:*
> Have you actually "Posted" any actual "Technical" facts in this "Thread ??
> -OR-
> Are you only here to just "Heckle" me ??
> ......


Neither. I am trying to make you understand that if you would just treat other people as you would like to be treated yourself, you would find these forums a much more friendly place.

It is not your job to police the factuality of information posted here. So many times what you want to be factual, black and white information is subject to interpretation. We all make mistakes -- even you. The mature individuals among us admit it frankly and move on.

And we are now -- largely due to your lack of concern for etiquette -- far from the original topic and are now discussing landscaping and ballast, a matter of artistic interpretation and personal preference rather than technical accuracy.

The solution to lots of people not following the rules is not to break them yourself, but to make sure you DO toe the line, and try to persuade others to follow. If I pull out my gun and shoot at you, then you shoot back at me, it doesn't make my action (or yours) right. It makes us both equally wrong.

I don't know why I keep wasting my breath (or electrons), but I keep hoping maybe one of these times, it will sink in. We DO value your technical knowledge, ED. What we can't tolerate is the attitude.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Model Train Forum.. (2016)..*



CTValleyRR said:


> Neither. I am trying to make you understand that if you would *just treat other people as you would like to be treated yourself, *
> you would find these forums a much more friendly place.


*[CTValleyRR]: Hi*
You are also in this "Thread"..
Turnouts and reverse polarity
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=91865
I had to correct you because you were going to lead this "Thread" into the wrong direction..
I posted an actual drawing to assist *[rva1945]..*
*[gregc]* also assisted..



CTValleyRR said:


> The solution to *lots of people not following the rules is not to break them yourself,* but to make sure you DO toe the line,
> and try to persuade others to follow..
> We DO value your technical knowledge, ED. What we can't tolerate is the attitude.


*[CTValleyRR]: Question #1*
You are also in this "Thread"..
Turnouts and reverse polarity
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=91865
Why are there the (x3) same useless unhelpful "Hecklers" in this "Thread" ?? 
They are also "Not" helping a newcomer asking for help..

*[CTValleyRR]: "Forum Rules"*
Please read the this "Forum Rules"..
You will find that almost "All" the rules are being broken in this "Forum"..
Is it not the responsibility of an "Administrator" of a forum, to insure the that the rules are "Not" broken..
(Politics, Religion, Name Calling, Personal Attacks, Etc.)..

*[CTValleyRR]: **The Biggest Hypocrite*
--> Union Station 
A gift for my dear friend ED-RRR
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=89754
Why was *[/6 matt]* allowed to only post a "Thread" directly against me *[ED-RRR]* ??
There are also postings from *[CTValleyRR]* in this "Thread"..
Even *[Big Ed]* called you an *"Instigator"..* in this "Thread"..

Your past postings are now biting you in the but.. *Hypocrite*
......


----------



## time warp

So, the phsyco that annoys nearly everyone isn't the problem?
Correct who? You siphon information off of other members and claim it as your own.
If youre so horribly put upon and awash in the ignorance of others, why don't you leave?
Are you that self absorbed Ed, really?


----------



## CTValleyRR

Yes. He is. Isn't it obvious?


----------



## ED-RRR

*Highly Recommended To See.. (Model Train Layout)..*



time warp said:


> So, the phsyco that annoys nearly everyone isn't the problem?
> Correct who? You siphon information off of other members and claim it as your own.
> If youre so horribly put upon and awash in the ignorance of others, why don't you leave?
> Are you that self absorbed Ed, really?


*[time warp]* Hi:
He has a "Great" detailed model train layout..
I highly recommended you see his model train layout..

THROUGH THE EYES OF A CHILD
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=91809&highlight=Time+Warp
......


----------



## wvgca

i just reread some older posts here in this thread.... my how time flies when you're having fun !


----------

