# FYI No PRR P-70s from Walthers



## Weasel505 (Sep 7, 2013)

Hi,
Just FYI (especially for PRR fans) I got a post card today from WKW cancelling my preorder of P-70 coaches. I called and the lady said the whole P-70 program has been discontinued.

Wonder what happened? Anybody know?

Weasel505


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

There certainly must have been sufficient demand given the iconic prototype, but they were probably premature with their announcement.
They were offering so many variations and combinations, that it's possible there were too many to manufacture and market at once to meet demands.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I emailed Walthers and they told me not enough orders.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

davidone said:


> I emailed Walthers and they told me not enough orders.


Hard to understand why they'd say that.
Almost everyone I know who models Eastern roads has said how much they'd like to have them.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Besides, since when does a manufacturer need actual "orders" to come out with a product?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

LateStarter said:


> Besides, since when does a manufacturer need actual "orders" to come out with a product?


For the last five-ish years, that's been the practice. Production tends to be based on pre-orders.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Oh ok, I didn't know that.
Must be why ExactRail asks for input from buyers about what they'd like to see.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

It's not like the old days....manufacturers produced and stocked products for years....but nowadays, they don't like to spend more money than they have to, stocking and storing/warehousing product costs huge money....so the hobby is turned to producing what is ordered, and nothing more....so, if you see something available that you want, buy it while it is available, because after they're gone, they're gone, until (maybe) produced again in the future.....and when they are gone, the only way to get it is the secondary market...likely at prices more than the original MSRP....


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

The mfgs. may not announce that they need a certain amount of orders but in today's market you cannot have product sitting in a warehouse. 
I know of 6 guys who wanted the cars so Walthers saying they did not get enough orders is baffling.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> For the last five-ish years, that's been the practice. Production tends to be based on pre-orders.


I've noticed this trend with a lot of retailers now, many hardly stock anything, especially new stuff. Can't blame them really. Someone I buy from who is probably the biggest model train retailer in the UK only orders 10 NCE PoweCabs at a time. They then want you to pre order.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

davidone said:


> The mfgs. may not announce that they need a certain amount of orders but in today's market you cannot have product sitting in a warehouse.
> I know of 6 guys who wanted the cars so Walth ers saying they did not get enough orders is baffling.


They needed a lot more than 6 guys.....it's expensive to create the tooling and manufacturing of a new item.......not to mention the cost of the research that goes on before it even gets to production.....Walthers knows how many they made to produce to make a profit......it's more than 6.......:laugh:

More than likely, it'll be 6,000......


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

There are a lot of issues here. This is Walthers second major passenger car production that has been canceled this year. In this case, others have said that another company will have a version of the model sooner. No matter what, there is a limit to what the market will bear. Even an inferior product will saturate the market, given enough lead time.

I would question the viability of the passenger car market today. There are four manufacturers producing a significant number of models, some have been repeated in a short period with quality differences. 

The decision process seems strange, particularly with the preorder requirements that seem to be in place. I think the announcement-preorder time is a prescription for failure. It gives others the knowledge of what your doing and the oppertunity to steal the market. A more sensible approach would be to identify projects with interest. Then announce within a few months of first delivery. The Item still could be a limited run, but it may include staged deliveries. I find it interesting that they expect you to preorder on something that may take 12 to 30 months to deliver. During that time you might change scales or hobbies. Delivery in under six months from knowledge would be consistent with the modelers interest.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

I maybe off base here but there is one other possibility for the lack of pre-orders. The coaches in question cannot be run on tight curves thus requiring a very large layout. Many of us are confined to small areas for our layouts. Coaches like these just will not run on them. I do both US and European trains and I am confined to a very small area for my layout. I don't have any US passenger coaches but I many European coaches. Just a thought.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

PhillipL said:


> I maybe off base here but there is one other possibility for the lack of pre-orders. The coaches in question cannot be run on tight curves thus requiring a very large layout. Many of us are confined to small areas for our layouts. Coaches like these just will not run on them. I do both US and European trains and I am confined to a very small area for my layout. I don't have any US passenger coaches but I many European coaches. Just a thought.


That's basically what we were discussing on another thread. For myself, I have a 6 car (baggage, coach, coach, sleeper, diner, observation) consist of NH coaches. They operate fine on my 22" curves. But I'm done. Everything else I buy will be freight.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> They needed a lot more than 6 guys.....it's expensive to create the tooling and manufacturing of a new item.......not to mention the cost of the research that goes on before it even gets to production.....Walthers knows how many they made to produce to make a profit......it's more than 6.......:laugh:
> 
> More than likely, it'll be 6,000......


Hobo, at the risk of sounding argumentative (which never stopped me before lol) if one modeler knows 6 other modelers that are interested in a specific passenger car, it IS a pretty good indication of a lot of interest in the passenger car market. That's how opinion polls operate, you take a representative slice and extrapolate an entire pie.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Fair enough, but it's not a perfect rule.....and a manufacturer likely wants a bit more certainty on the numbers if they are going to sink in major capital on an item.....

I don't know how many times I've heard, and seen, a "bunch" of people say "I'd buy one of those if it was made"....so the item gets made, and when the time came to pony up the cash.....they wouldn't......and guess who gets stuck holding the bag then?

Food for thought......


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

JNXT 7707 said:


> Hobo, at the risk of sounding argumentative (which never stopped me before lol) if one modeler knows 6 other modelers that are interested in a specific passenger car, it IS a pretty good indication of a lot of interest in the passenger car market. That's how opinion polls operate, you take a representative slice and extrapolate an entire pie.


Nah, in real life, more the opposite.

You know six modelers who will buy it, but any grouping of friends more or less tend to have interests together because of where you grew up, went to school, etc.....

The sad thing about pre-order garbage is a and limited run this and that, is the simple fact that if you spend time in any hobby and are involved, if your club or board has 100 members, there are a minimum 5-6 times more people near you having the same interests who never check it out in person or looked for you on the internet.

I run a Chicago section for ThirdGen 82-92 Camaro/Firebirds on a popular forum and continually run into people who are interested in them and own them and have no clue about the online world and resulting get togethers. Same things goes for my Transformer habit. I've bought sold and traded with folks who have no clue about the conventions, online presence or anything else. To the point where it outnumbers the folks I know participating.

As always short term profit will result in long term pain. Keep pissing off the people who support you and making products scarce for the passer by/former hobby folks and the numbers will continue to shrink. We can throw in buying companies and bringing out the same product at a substantial increase in cost too.......


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

3.8TransAM said:


> Nah, in real life, more the opposite.
> 
> You know six modelers who will buy it, but any grouping of friends more or less tend to have interests together because of where you grew up, went to school, etc.....
> 
> ...


Well...your response more or less supports my point 
Pollsters/statisticians try to pick small samples of larger groupings to try to predict where those larger groups interests lie. Granted one modeler knowing 6 people that want this car isn't a foolproof method, but the pre-order system does seem to follow this strategy. If XXX modelers pre-order a car, then you can reasonably predict (or hope) that X,XXX modelers will buy it. Or something like that :goofball:

Not defending the pre-order system, I personally hate it. If I'm interested in a loco or car, I want it NOW, or maybe no more than a couple weeks(?). 12 to 30 months? Like someone says who know if I'll even want it then?


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## greenwizard88 (Dec 5, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> Fair enough, but it's not a perfect rule.....and a manufacturer likely wants a bit more certainty on the numbers if they are going to sink in major capital on an item.....
> 
> I don't know how many times I've heard, and seen, a "bunch" of people say "I'd buy one of those if it was made"....so the item gets made, and when the time came to pony up the cash.....they wouldn't......and guess who gets stuck holding the bag then?
> 
> Food for thought......


Being that this is Walthers that we're talking about, there's also a 3rd group of people, those who don't pre-order and then wait for the firesale. Why spend upto $110/car when I can wait and get it for $40/car.


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## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

Cycleops said:


> I've noticed this trend with a lot of retailers now, many hardly stock anything, especially new stuff. Can't blame them really. Someone I buy from who is probably the biggest model train retailer in the UK only orders 10 NCE PoweCabs at a time. They then want you to pre order.


Hattons?


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

The one thing I believe is holding people from pre-ordering is the increase in prices.

The new Walthers SF city of Los Angeles locomotives and passenger cars will be around $2000.00 for the set. I would love to have that set but not at the price that it is going to sell for. 

As far as the P70's go and even though I live on the east coast I model the UP, SP, SF. 
I don't belong to a club and the 6 guys who pre-ordered we're friends. 

I'm still thinking it is the prices more then anything. Look at the new BLI big boy, msrp is $749.00 and street price will be at $675.00 or so. I was in for a big boy but not at that price.

If you have more money than you know what to do with then go for it and spend what you want but most of us modelers don't.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Unfortunately it is like a number of things that have happened over the last decade or so. The prices keep going up and the average joe's ability to pay has actually gone down. 
The demand for more unique items that require conditions that only a part of the customers can provide are both limiting the customer base for the product. 

Limits like that reduce the demand. I suspect a bubble has or is about to burst like in housing in 2010. People were still hoping to sell for 10 percent more when the demand was only there at 50 percent less. Fortunately these are descrationary train purchases, but the impact to a company like Walthers will be the same. Projects that just can't be done because the buyers won't pay the required price. 

Look for moves to "lower" cost items. You may see a situation like Scale Trains. Basically three price levels, at least on paper. Most or all of the product at the lower cost end. 

It will be interesting to see which way Walthers goes with this. 
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Walthers already has 3 price range lines; Trainline, Mainline and Walthers Proto.....something for everyone....


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> Walthers already has 3 price range lines; Trainline, Mainline and Walthers Proto.....something for everyone....


Unfortunately Walthers "low" line (Trainline) falls in my "high" line price range! :laugh:

This is all interesting to speculate on but personally it's a moot point - I never pre-order anything, or buy anything new at all lately. Just can't justify the cost. I'm happy to live in the past at train shows and occasionally may snag something that filters down that way that was once pre-ordered by someone


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Every two months I buy one "prime" car... ExactRail, Tangent, or Kadee.
Mostly Kadee, because they have 2-bay hoppers and 40-foot boxcars. I got the Tangent PC gon only for the nostalgic value -- I grew up in Connecticut. It'll sit on siding #2 at a salvage yard, and probably never move.
Other than that, it's Athern, Bachman, Walthers, and Train Miniature with Kadees and good wheels installed.
Passenger cars are ConCor Branchline's, which aren't cheap either, but they're the best answer for S.P. on 22-inch radii.


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

One thing has occurred to me, have noticed nearly every if not all Proto or Mainline releases are always "limited editions". It tries creates an artificial demand "oh my, if I don't order it, I may never own one!" (which I guess failed here) and justifies higher prices. Another company uses the exact same business model. When Marklin bought Trix models, the first they did was offer every new item as "limited editions" and raised up the prices. I can see having a very unique item offered as a limited edition such as a Big Boy or a locomotive that was actually built by a railroad in small numbers but 40 foot gondolas? Really?


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## Joefrumjersey (Apr 16, 2013)

Not for nothing, but I myself would have bought six P70s, from the first two groups offered.
Personally, I think Walthers bit off more than they can chew with the P70. There are six distinct groups of P 70 sub classes that were produced en mass by the prototype. Base P70, P70R (Ice AC), P70 FAR Low profile arch roof and wide windows, P70 GR Arch roof narrow thermopayne windows, single vestibule, P70 KR Arch roof, wide windows, single vestibule, P70FBR Clerestory and Arch roof, modern with round restroom window. A ll classes were represented in quantity during the late 40s, 50s and 60s. That's a lot of tooling. No one size fits all here.

BLI is only doing two versions, the base P70, and the P70R. PRR modelers want them all, but they "must" be right, or they won't sell. 

There are other factors of course, but this may have been a factor in Walthers decision.
Personally, I don't buy the lack of orders scenario.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

PhillipL said:


> One thing has occurred to me, have noticed nearly every if not all Proto or Mainline releases are always "limited editions". It tries creates an artificial demand "oh my, if I don't order it, I may never own one!" (which I guess failed here) and justifies higher prices. Another company uses the exact same business model. When Marklin bought Trix models, the first they did was offer every new item as "limited editions" and raised up the prices. I can see having a very unique item offered as a limited edition such as a Big Boy or a locomotive that was actually built by a railroad in small numbers but 40 foot gondolas? Really?


That is certainly one possibility.

I will say, though, that I have been in hundreds of business meetings over my career, and I've never heard anyone discuss how they can gouge the customer and get more money.

I've been a part of hundreds of discussions about how we minimize risk, or how we maintain profit margin in the face of rising costs.

I think it is much more likely that the "Limited Editions" are the manufacturer's desire not to get stuck with lots of unsold inventory, which has been a problem in the past. Cash flow is as important to a business as profit, maybe more so (you can pay your bills if you have cash, whether or not you are generating a profit) and dead inventory generates no incoming cash. 

In the current business environment, I think they are right: if you see something you want, order it, because it probably won't be around forever.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I think it's the manufacturers way of "adding value" to the product. If there's going to be a limited quantity produced the customer perceives there's an added kudos and buys it perhaps also thinking it may be more saleable when he wants to sell it due to It's slightly unique nature. This will help them shift stock quicker to make way for new productions.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

It's the way the hobby has become......they don't want to stock surplus product that doesn't sell (for whatever reason); that cost them big money.....they call them "limited editions" as a way of saying that yes, we only made so many, so if you want one, buy it while it's available....

Would you even notice if the term "unlimited edition" was on the box.....? :laugh:


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I got Walthers daily email today and they stated, due to smaller then anticipated of pre-orders the P-70 passenger coaches and any previous ones announced have been cancelled. 

There it is, from the horses mouth.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

The P70 cars are being made, but you're going to have to pay if you want them.......BLI has announced them:

http://www.broadway-limited.com/pennsylvaniap70passengercars.aspx


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I'll pass.


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## Joefrumjersey (Apr 16, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> The P70 cars are being made, but you're going to have to pay if you want them.......BLI has announced them:
> 
> http://www.broadway-limited.com/pennsylvaniap70passengercars.aspx


Broadway Limited actually announced their version before Walthers did. Difference between the two projects, was that Walthers project was more ambitious. 

FWIW: BLI's offerings are the original. non air-conditioned format, plus the early ice activated AC from the mid 30s. My layout, is centered in the mid to late 1960s, while there were a few non AC P70s still around, the Ice AC were all gone by them.

I might pick up a few, if the price is right.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Unfortunately the comings and goings of BLI have even less impact on me than the weather on Mars :laugh:


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