# Dumb Question #236 - Why Does Lionel Track have 3 rails?



## xrunner

I have searched for an answer but haven't found one.


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## gc53dfgc

it uses a two rail pickup. The two outside rails are the negatives and the center is the positive. This is how lionel started doing it all when they first started with standard guage back when being prototypical was never important so it has stuck and that is what they use to this day except for a few exceptions of engines.


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## xrunner

gc53dfgc said:


> it uses a two rail pickup. The two outside rails are the negatives and the center is the positive. This is how lionel started doing it all when they first started with standard guage back when being prototypical was never important so it has stuck and that is what they use to this day except for a few exceptions of engines.


OK, but does anyone know why they decided that they needed 2 rails for Neg.? Seems rather a strange way to design it.


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## Artieiii

My guess is that since they started in the late 1800's everything was metal and plastics weren't invented yet. A metal axle with 2 metal wheels will cause a short across a pos and neg rails. With a 3 rail setup it was simple...no need to insulate 1 side of the axle. Nowadays it's cheap and easy to make a plastic piece to isolate each wheel form each other so the 3rd rail is unnecessary. Just my .02.
-Art


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## xrunner

Artieiii said:


> My guess is that since they started in the late 1800's everything was metal and plastics weren't invented yet. A metal axle with 2 metal wheels will cause a short across a pos and neg rails. With a 3 rail setup it was simple...no need to insulate 1 side of the axle.


OK that is a good explanation.


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## T-Man

Easy, no isolated wheels on an axle. Three rail was used with the first standard gage set produced.

I agree with Art.


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## xrunner

I suppose they could have made wooden inserts for the axles to fit into a wheel to insulate them?


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## Artieiii

It's the exact same reason that subway cars have a 3rd rail. Metal has to be used for the axles to support the weight of the cars. In model scale, plastic is strong enough. Heat from the brakes/wheels generated from 1:1 scale would melt plastic. 2 rail looks much better but in the 1890's the technology did not exist for 2 rail to work. Backwards compatibility has caused Lionel to stick with their original setup. Marklin has also retained the 3 rail setup from what I understand.
-Art


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## Artieiii

xrunner said:


> I suppose they could have made wooden inserts for the axles to fit into a wheel to insulate them?


Yes that would have worked but back then made in america meant it would last a good long time. My standard gauge Lionel from the 1920's is almost 100 years old and still runs and the axles have never required replacement. Still runs just fine.
-Art


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## gc53dfgc

The wood would also most likely decompose or fall apart from the streeses unlike a plastic which can last forever.


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## gunrunnerjohn

xrunner said:


> I have searched for an answer but haven't found one.


Because two rails weren't enough!


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## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Because two rails weren't enough!


Well if two weren't enough and three is better, then 4 should be even _better_!


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## gunrunnerjohn

xrunner said:


> Well if two weren't enough and three is better, then 4 should be even _better_!


Let's go for an even dozen.


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## gc53dfgc

maybe even 100 to be on the safe side.


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## xrunner

Anyway - it made sense back in the day but why didn't they at least move to a 2 rail system as a "premium" type of set? There is no reason they couldn't have kept the 3 rail system too as an optional type of set. :dunno:


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## tjcruiser

You guys are all missing the key point touted by Lionel themselves in the years that they promoted their 3-rail system:

Reverse loops are easy. No need for complex wiring. Any track layout can be looped back on itself, with no worry about flip-flopping polarity the wrong way. You can't do that with a simple 2-rail system.

TJ


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## Artieiii

tjcruiser said:


> You guys are all missing the key point touted by Lionel themselves in the years that they promoted their 3-rail system:
> 
> Reverse loops are easy. No need for complex wiring. Any track layout can be looped back on itself, with no worry about flip-flopping polarity the wrong way. You can't do that with a simple 2-rail system.
> 
> TJ


Wow TJ, I never thought of that. Perhaps that's why the design has survived all these years.
-Art


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## gc53dfgc

The all great master of Lionel has spoken! It is decided that three rail setups were chosen for ease of track building and planning as well as an easy system of pickups. MTH jsut folled in Lionels footsteps.


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## Reckers

And last of all, the real answer. The third rail is for the training wheels.


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## Big Ed

You got more for your money with the third rail.:thumbsup:

And without the third rail the S guys wouldn't have no ammo, for their arguments.:smokin:


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## pookybear

xrunner said:


> Well if two weren't enough and three is better, then 4 should be even _better_!


Yes it was but did not work with already made switches. The answer to the
not asked question is American Flyer whistle track of the 1940s. It has a
fourth rail that was shorter than the other three for the whistle voltage 
feed.

Pookybear


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## pookybear

big ed said:


> And without the third rail the S guys wouldn't have no ammo, for their arguments.:smokin:


Well the fun of tinplate 0 gauge can not be contained on just two rails, I 
guess S can. 


Pookybear


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## Big Ed

pookybear said:


> Yes it was but did not work with already made switches. The answer to the
> not asked question is American Flyer whistle track of the 1940s. It has a
> fourth rail that was shorter than the other three for the whistle voltage
> feed.
> 
> Pookybear


You mean to tell me the S fanatics had FOUR RAIL TRACK at one time?


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## THE TYCO MAN

The 3 rail system was used so when you had a swicth or two, it wouldn't short out anywhere becuase back then, everything was metal!


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## snowballs442

When was the third rail finally done away with? Or when did techniology do away with the third rail?


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## gc53dfgc

Technology has not done away with the third rail in O gauge or scale to this day. The same goes for standard gauge. HO, G, S, N, and smaller have always been two rail except for american flyers dabble with 4 rail systems.


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## tjcruiser

We had an interesting discussion (with some great photos) of 4-rail controller tracks, here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3736

TJ


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## pookybear

big ed said:


> You mean to tell me the S fanatics had FOUR RAIL TRACK at one time?


Oh why is that everyone only thinks American flyer makes S, no no the four
rail track was for 0 guage. 

Pookybear


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## pookybear

Yes TJ,

that is it right there, that was the track I was thinking about.

Pookybear


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## xrunner

Artieiii said:


> My guess is that since they started in the late 1800's everything was metal and plastics weren't invented yet. A metal axle with 2 metal wheels will cause a short across a pos and neg rails. With a 3 rail setup it was simple...no need to insulate 1 side of the axle.


Wait a minute ... If they were making an electric train back then they had to have insulators or they couldn't have made a motor. So how is it they could make an electric motor and get the electricity to it yet not be able to insulate a wheel?


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## gc53dfgc

They could use little pieces of cardboard to insulate the motor just like they did with the track since it was all metal back then. The cardboard would not hold up in an insulated axle back then because of the loads it would have to take.


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## tjcruiser

OK, guys, some clarification and correction to the comments you're making above is in order ...

Lionel introduced trains in full production in 1902. These ran on 2-rail track with a 2-7/8" gauge. Power was via either dry-cell or wet-cell DC batteries. The axles were insulated, such that current to the motor flowed in via the wheels on one side, and returned to the track via the wheels on the other side.

Though Lionel did sell an inventory of 2-7/8" track sections (straights, turnouts, bumpers, etc.), track layout was limited to "simple" loops; any attempt at a reverse loop would obviously cause a short.

In 1906, Lionel introduced 2-1/8" gauge trains/track, later dubbed "Standard Gauge". As a significant diversion to their earlier trains, this new system ran on 3-rail track, with the "hot" power supplied via the new center rail, and the return or ground circuit directed through the outer rails. As such, the wheels/axles need not be insulated from left/right sides.

These early trains 3-rail trains could still operate on battery-supplied DC power. Most homes back then did NOT have hard-wired AC house power, however, for those that did, Lionel offered an AC transformer which could power the trains.

TJ


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## teddybearturbine

From what I had read in a Lionel book, in the early 1900's there were some full scale electric trains that ran on 2 rails.....but there was an outside 3rd rail that was "hot" and could shock you. There were signs saying "LOOK OUT for the 3rd RAIL". Cohen, knowing that manufacturing trains as 2 rails would be expensive.....he used the 3rd rail concept and "Creative License" and put the 3rd insulated rail in the in the center for ease of mfg. and kind of true to life....sort of.

That is what I got from "The story of Joshua Lionel Cowen and his Lionel Train Company ALL ABOARD!" Page 40 on the right side of the page.

Dave


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## teddybearturbine

Also.....he used the phrase "Look Out for the 3rd Rail!" in his advertisements.


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## Massey

I hear a lot of talk here on how they could have insulated the wheels back in the day. Well there were many types of resins that could be used. They were almost as strong as plastic is today but much harder to produce. There is also a composite fiberboard that was used to insulate electronics, it was the very first form of fiberglass and was made with a similar process. The body of the fiberboard was made with a cotton or burlap weave that was soaked in normal resins of the day. This formed a strong hard material that was easy to shape and had no conductive properties. 

Those of you who have played with electronics or electric motors from back in the early 1900s up to and through the 1960s will know what this fiberboard I am talking about is. You usually find it in a reddish brown color, kinda brittle from age.

Massey


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the 3rd rail does make it very simple to create almost any track layout, no reversals or tricky switching. Also, it's doubtless easier to do than using the stuff that was available at the turn of the century.


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