# Seeking input on layout plan!



## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

This is my first attempt at using AnyRail, and a first attempt at posting a jpg picture. The location for the layout is a large spare bedroom in the basement.

So far I have a main line in place. Minimum curves are 30". Grid squares are 12". The shown bench work attempts to allow for sidings and industry, yet to be designed.

The room entrance will require a removeable track section, perhaps a Central Valley 26" double track truss bridge.

Depsite the long main line, I'm short on space. I like to run lengthy items, Big Boy, Big Blow Turbine, passenger cars, etc. They also need space on the layout, which I am short of.

I have a detail U.P. Cheyenne Coaling Tower I'd like to use.

This is my first attempt, so tear it apart and makes suggestions if you're in the mood to do so.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Can you rearrange the furniture? 2 reasons duckunders or removable sections can be a pain in the neck, and 2 you might make better use of some straight section for passenger staition along that back wall that the dresser and bed are up against 

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Your thoughts are correct and I've messed around with that possibility. Finding a place for the bed is the challenge.

The space to the right that is gray is a built in credenza. The space at the bottom where the refrigerator is has a wood buring fireplace that can't be moved. The wall to the top has a bi-fold closet door on it. In other words, there are no walls for the bed except the one it is on. 

The possibility would be to put the bed in the middle of the floor which I don't object to if I can figure out how to neatly do it.

This room is a spare that is used for sleeping about once every five years, and other than that, nobody goes in it except me. I live alone. I suppose with a operating model railroad, I might have an occassional visitor in there.

I'll take another look at the possibilities. Your thoughts are good. Thanks.

EDIT: I don't think I indicated that this is HO scale.

EDIT 2: Because the elements are on layers, I tried moving some things around and discovered that the left wall placement actually shortens the main line by quite a bit. In it's current location, it's close to the length of the room, and also uses the space across the room. One thing I discovered as I began this is that HO with 30" minimum curves eats up a lot of real estate.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Ok those updates help. I notice the track goes over the credenza. How high is that. How high is your benchwork going to be? Do you mind taking a few photos of the space so we can see what youre dealing with? Im thinking about possibilities like running the mainline in a dogbone that tracks over the headboard of the bed , curving behind the fridge and having the balloon still over the credenza. Or, Looking at the dimensions i imagine there is an outlet that you might plug in the fridge between the closet and the entry door if need be. Edit, also what are the dimensions of the room?
mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Sure, I'll get the pics posted this weekend.

The credenza is about 34" high and the roadbed will be higher than that. I like somewhere in the area of 42". At 81 years of age, stooping over is not my biggest desire. I also like the looks of a higher perspective.

This is an antique bed (I was born in it) that has high posts on the corners, but there is no reason it couldn't be pulled out from the wall far enough to let a main track run behind it. Perhaps a tunnel portal on each side.

I should also point out there is a patio door on the ouside wall between the refrigerator and the credenza. Rarely used, but needs to be accessable. I had some of these things noted on the drawing, but the "export" didn't pick up all of them.

Thanks for your interest.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

is the fireplace ever used? just trying to make sure we don't end up with any unintended consequences....


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

No, the fireplace is never used.

The photos follow in the next post. This room has been used as the typical overflow room and a location for retired items. The TV's are headed to Open Door Mission, other stuff to the land fill. Using it for a layout will force the much needed cleaning out.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Five on here, two more to follow.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I guess there was only 1 more to send.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

30" radius curves in ANY scale eat up a lot of real estate....

I'm guessing that the room must remain usable as a bedroom as well. How tolerant are the people who would be staying there? You COULD flip the bed around and run your layout over it, leaving about 18" clearance for the occupant's feet. Honestly. I'm a former submarine sailor; it can be done.

Because around the walls as much as possible might help with the real estate problem. 

I also see you've mostly figured out AnyRail. Not sure what you mean, though, about the "Export" not picking things up. Unless you limited the size or something, but when I export mine, everything gets picked up.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

CTValleyRR, the bedroom gets used about once every 5 years by my son who lives on the East Coast. I have no problem pullig the bed out a foot and leaving it where it is if that permits a good design.

I'm doing fairly well with AnyRail. I tried most of them: SCARM, CadRail, and 3rd PlanIt. CadRail was a disaster for me, 3rd PlanIt had some great features. One I really liked was it's concept of locating curves. You simply draw a circle the size of your desired radius in each location and let the software connect them together with straight lines and it turns it into rail. I had the same loop I now have in AnyRail done in 10% of the AnyRail time. That's where the fun ended. You're supposed to be able to paint a switch over the rail at the proper location and it installs it. I spent 4 hours two evenings in a row and never got one switch installed. That's when I returned to AnyRail and did the drawing I posted. It took a lot longer. I haven't gotten to the switch installation in AnyRail yet, so I'll hope for the best.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

did this up real quick in SCARM.
tracks are stacked vertically behind the bed. 6" height separation between tracks, 2.1%grade as drawn but could be brought down a bit, i just got lazy. notice i rotated the fridge

you could possibly also use one balloon to do the climb and have a virtual double track main, much like my track plan. Check out my signature link to see what I mean.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

irontodd, I'm fascinated with your ideas on this one. Gives me something to ponder during the Nebraska/Wisconsin slaughter tonight.


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## nicksim86 (Dec 14, 2015)

the easy solution is to get rid of the bed and get an air mattress for your twice a decade guests. but it sounds like it has some sentimental value to you. maybe use it as your bed and get rid of your bed?


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

nicksim86 said:


> the easy solution is to get rid of the bed and get an air mattress for your twice a decade guests. but it sounds like it has some sentimental value to you. maybe use it as your bed and get rid of your bed?


Interesting idea. I'll have to think about that a bit. I like to try and have an open mind about all possibilities.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

irontodd, in working a little bit with your layout plan, a couple things come to mind. Access to the patio door is rarely used, as is the refridgerator. Ducking under to access them is acceptable.

How about bringing a line off the end loop to run over to the credenza to use as a location to store passenger cars, etc. Possible even a passenger terminal. The end at the foot of the bed could be a major engine servicing facility with the Cheyenne Coaling Tower and the addtion of Diesel refueling.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Yeah i like that a lot, i was tempted to do that and put a yard over there on tje credenza but wasnt sure about the need to access that door.

I will be away from my PC for the rest of the night but if there's any way to jave ot double ended that would probably be ideal. Maybe single track bridge coming off the existing yard lead and a separate one circling around the industrial facility 

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I messed around with rearranging the room and showing how the credenza might be reached in a manner that would let it's full length be utilized. Working on this was better than watching Nebraska lose to Wisconsin anyway.

I didn't do any elevation, since there is room for the tracks to run parallel down the long wall side. This way, trains would be more visible. Besides, I haven't gotten to learning the elevation thingy yet.

I'm not knowledgeable in proper prototypical track layout, so it's not very elegant, nor perhaps very operational, but it's a start. Surely, it could be much better.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Here's yet another possibility with the credenza track running behing the fireplace chimney. There's 9 inches of clearence behind it.

I don't like the loss of long yard space on the credenza, however, as I want to park passenger trains there. I currently have a dozen Broadway Limited California Zephyer cars with 3 BLI E8 Diesels in Burlington dress to power them. Also 8 or 10 UP Proto passenger cars with E9 power yet to be acquired.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

A quick thought, will the bed fit in the closet? Are the bi fold doors wide enough? Headboard inside with the rest of the bed protruding out. Probably a lot of stuff in there. You would be taking two problems and making one. 9" behind the chimney should accommodate three tracks without curves.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Bwells said:


> A quick thought, will the bed fit in the closet? Are the bi fold doors wide enough? Headboard inside with the rest of the bed protruding out. Probably a lot of stuff in there. You would be taking two problems and making one. 9" behind the chimney should accommodate three tracks without curves.


Closet full. Has shelves for storage. I'm still contemplating moving the bed to my bedroom and disposing of my existing bed as was suggested above. However, I would only want to do that if it made a major difference. Same for the freezer. (mislabeled on plan).

I don't want to jump to conclusions on these things without exhausting the least intrusive ideas first.

I won't ever being using the layout for operating sessions or prototypical operation. It's mostly for display and running trains, and hopefully for the artistic endeavor part of it. I like the creative part excpet for track plans. They just don't go together well for me. The help on this forum is extremely valuable for me.


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

Deane Johnson said:


> ...Finding a place for the bed is the challenge.
> 
> The space to the right that is gray is a built in credenza.
> 
> This room is a spare that is used for sleeping about once every five years, and other than that, nobody goes in it except me.





Deane Johnson said:


> the fireplace is never used.
> 
> The TV's are headed to Open Door Mission...





Deane Johnson said:


> ...Access to the patio door is rarely used, as is the refridgerator.


First thing, call ahead on the TV to the mission idea. There isn't a mission/thrift store in our area that will take old TV's. No body wants them, they are heavy to move and store.

I'd also suggest removing the other stuff too. You don't use the stove? Some insurance will reduce your premium without one. something to consider. The fridge that isn't used would definitely go away. as would the bed. and the built in.

In my opinion the layout would be more enjoyable sans the obstacles. YMMV of course.


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

Deane Johnson said:


> Same for the freezer. (mislabeled on plan).
> 
> I don't want to jump to conclusions on these things without exhausting the least intrusive ideas first.


Freezer, so it is used? but not much I presume? Less than ¼ full? ½?
filled to the brim from 1989?  Just kidding.

Is there another place it would fit if it's useful?


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

The New Guy said:


> Freezer, so it is used? but not much I presume? Less than ¼ full? ½?
> filled to the brim from 1989?  Just kidding.
> 
> Is there another place it would fit if it's useful?


1% full.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

A freezer at 1% full is eating more electricity than it is worth. If you can get rid of it, that would be great. Check with your local landfill and see if they take them. Ours takes them but it is the normal landfill price with a special drop off point. Some require Freon lines be cut. Also, ours has an E waste drop off for free which includes TVs, microwave, stereos and radios.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Deane Johnson said:


> CTValleyRR, the bedroom gets used about once every 5 years by my son who lives on the East Coast. I have no problem pullig the bed out a foot and leaving it where it is if that permits a good design.
> 
> I'm doing fairly well with AnyRail. I tried most of them: SCARM, CadRail, and 3rd PlanIt. CadRail was a disaster for me, 3rd PlanIt had some great features. One I really liked was it's concept of locating curves. You simply draw a circle the size of your desired radius in each location and let the software connect them together with straight lines and it turns it into rail. I had the same loop I now have in AnyRail done in 10% of the AnyRail time. That's where the fun ended. You're supposed to be able to paint a switch over the rail at the proper location and it installs it. I spent 4 hours two evenings in a row and never got one switch installed. That's when I returned to AnyRail and did the drawing I posted. It took a lot longer. I haven't gotten to the switch installation in AnyRail yet, so I'll hope for the best.


Anyrail is designed to use actual track libraries, not generic pieces, so it does force you to actually lay track. That said, you can lay a flextrack curve in Anyrail just as easily. Tell it what radius and arc and drag it into position. Takes 5 seconds. Use the copy and paste tools to rapidly lay large segments of track. If you're not right clicking a lot when using Anyrail, you're missing most of the power of the tool.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I spent much of the day learning more aboout AnyRail as it seems to be the one I should know thoroughly. Thanks for the encouragement to use it CTValleyRR.

I added a lot to the drawing and I remeasured the room with a laser. Everything remained the same, except I lost 10 inches of width which meant moving things around some. Ended up improved I think.

The suggestions made on here about moving the bed out and dumping the freezer are still under consideration and reflection. If the bed leaves for another location, I could branch off the back side to a major switching yard and industrial area. The beginning plan is a mouthful to chew at this point. Fortuneatly, I have a lot of power tools, both floor models and hand, so benchwork should go OK. I need to study it and make it as simple and lightweight as possible consitant with doing the job.

Attached is drawing #4 reflecting todays upgrades. As always, comments are considered valuable.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

That one looks good but losing the freezer and building over the top of the fireplace would give SO much more room.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Bwells said:


> That one looks good but losing the freezer and building over the top of the fireplace would give SO much more room.


You're correct, and I'm giving that move the most serious consideration at this stage of the project. That freezer has sat there as long as 3 years without being opened. Right now it's got 3 frozen dinners in it and that's all. I even forget those are there. They've been there for a year.

I'm thinking it would make good passenger terminal space as well as some other industry.


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## nicksim86 (Dec 14, 2015)

check with your local power company. they may pay you to take that freezer away.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

nicksim86 said:


> check with your local power company. they may pay you to take that freezer away.


I live in the land of abundant power and they do nothing for us.

I did send an email to Open Door Mission today asking if they still take CRT TV's and got an email back for the President and CEO saying "we sure do". That problem is solved.

I just ordered this set for my passenger operation. Certain things can't be resisted.

http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG22524

I'd like to have an additional pair so I can run 4 units coupled, but they are rare.

EDIT: I just noticed this post moved me from Hobo to Gang Labourer. Is that better? I don't like laboring. I take it from the spelling this is a British based site?


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Deanne: it is Canadian based. The link shows they are discontinued. Were you able to find them and the link doesn't specify whether they are DCC or not.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Bwells said:


> Deanne: it is Canadian based. The link shows they are discontinued. Were you able to find them and the link doesn't specify whether they are DCC or not.


The link was Athearn's site. I found them at a brick and morter hobby shop in Pewaukee, WI. Needle in a hay stack discovery.

The description on their site: "ATHG22625 HO F3 A/B w/DCC & Sound, CB&Q/Passenger #9961A/B"


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Deane Johnson said:


> EDIT: I just noticed this post moved me from Hobo to Gang Labourer. Is that better? I don't like laboring.


Could be worse.... you could be a Chain Gang Member! 

The full explanation of the titles is here: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=234


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Could be worse.... you could be a Chain Gang Member!
> 
> The full explanation of the titles is here: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=234


I wanted to be the CEO. How many posts does that take?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It takes way more POSTS to be a CEO on the Forum than even in
Trump's Mexican border wall.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I've been working on adding to the layout plan, and now as I add a bunch of switches, I suddenly wonder how we control those these days. Back in the good old days (when brass engines were $49.95), we made panels and used push buttons to throw the switches. There must be something in the digital age to upstage this approach.

Being a home automation junky, computer routing would be sort of cool.

Latest drawing is attached.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Deane Johnson said:


> Back in the good old days, we made panels and used push buttons to throw the switches. There must be something in the digital age to upstage this approach.
> 
> Being a home automation junky, computer routing would be sort of cool.


You can still use the same old panels and toggle switches/push buttons. As you mentioned, you can also do full computer control. That's what I've chosen to do with my layout. I have a touch screen PC that I've mounted on a swing-arm where in the old days you'd put a control panel. The computer screen becomes my digital control panel. Since its a touch screen, I can throw switches and start trains on a schedule just by touching the screen. I also have digital throttles on screen too. If you're interested in the details of how I've done it, see http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=53721&page=5

Mark


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Mark, thanks for posting that outstanding piece of work. I like your benchwork construction also. The artistic flair to the project is excellent plus.

I don't know if I'll actually do anything like this or not, but it's sure interesting and I'm going to dig into it a bit.

I'd love to do it on an tablet, but I can see it takes a bigger screen.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Deane Johnson said:


> I've been working on adding to the layout plan, and now as I add a bunch of switches, I suddenly wonder how we control those these days. Back in the good old days (when brass engines were $49.95), we made panels and used push buttons to throw the switches. There must be something in the digital age to upstage this approach.
> 
> Being a home automation junky, computer routing would be sort of cool.
> 
> Latest drawing is attached.


Your track plan is starting to come together, feels a lot more usable than the original

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I just updated the image further. That narrow backside no longer needed to be "narrow" with the moving of the furniture. I think it would be good to have a long industrial area with sidings.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Deane Johnson said:


> I'd love to do it on an tablet, but I can see it takes a bigger screen.


I had originally considered using a tablet too. The 17" touch screen PC that I bought was actually quite a bit less expensive than a MS Surface would be. On my system, I can use a phone or tablet to connect in over wifi to my touch screen PC to also control the layout. The PC acts as a web server and you can use any browser app on your phone or tablet (iOS or Android) to load a special web page to control the layout.

Mark


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Your yard lead feels kind of short. I would suggest making that leftmost track in the newly widened industry zone the thru track. Your yard lead could then stretch in between the 2 mainline routes. Put a wye or turnout at the south end of the new industrial zone you'll still have enough for 3 wide industry. Or you could consider making that middle track a dual purpose passing siding and yard lead. 

Eastern Plains - Holyoke, Idalia and Towner (EPHIT) Branch build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Deane Johnson said:


> I've been working on adding to the layout plan, and now as I add a bunch of switches, I suddenly wonder how we control those these days. Back in the good old days (when brass engines were $49.95), we made panels and used push buttons to throw the switches. There must be something in the digital age to upstage this approach.
> 
> Being a home automation junky, computer routing would be sort of cool.
> 
> Latest drawing is attached.


Dean 

There is an interesting 'wrinkle' for turnout
control in yards, a diode matrix system.

It requires that your yard turnouts use
twin coil machines.

Instead of the typical 2 buttons per turnout, you
have only one in each yard track on your panel.
You select a track, say # 4, push that button and
all turnouts in the route to the main are set for
a clear route. Then push button 3 and again
the points are set for a clear route.

It make switching so much easier and eliminates
the derail caused by that turnout you forgot to throw.

You wire your panel and turnouts the same as 
always, but do it through a barrier terminal strip.
A series of diodes are used to feed power from
the buttons to the various turnouts. That's all
it is. You can get a package of diodes from 
Radio shack for around 5.00.

There are also interesting panel 'switches' that
control either stall motor or twin coil machines
and the panel or trackside LEDs. It is the Stapleton 751D

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/751D.HTM

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR, that's an intersting concept and worth exploring further. I never intended to get in deeper than a loop of track to run some engines around on and perhaps a small yard to park them. You can see by the track plan that this is getting much more comple by the day.

Irontodd, I've read your message and thought a lot about it. Been busy with sales calls with the business, so can't focus on it deep enough yet. I am uncomfortable that my plan doesm't have good planning applied yet. Meantime, I'm working as I can to clear the room out. More on the subject by at least the weekend. I really appreciate your thoughts.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Deane Johnson said:


> DonR, that's an intersting concept and worth exploring further. I never intended to get in deeper than a loop of track to run some engines around on and perhaps a small yard to park them. You can see by the track plan that this is getting much more comple by the day.
> 
> Irontodd, I've read your message and thought a lot about it. Been busy with sales calls with the business, so can't focus on it deep enough yet. I am uncomfortable that my plan doesm't have good planning applied yet. Meantime, I'm working as I can to clear the room out. More on the subject by at least the weekend. I really appreciate your thoughts.


Deane, don't try to hit the ball out of the park on this first layout. Much of the knowledge and experience you need to get to that "perfect" layout will be gained by building and operating a "rough draft" layout.

I myself am on my 4th layout (one as a teenager, and 3 since returning to the hobby in 2001). #3 was an expanded version of #2, using much of the same trackwork, while #4 is a complete do-over.

We can tell you to add sidings or industries, or yards, or what have you, or you can do it because you think that's the right approach, but when you finally run a train, you might discover that you like sitting back with a cold beverage (or a hot one) and just watching trains go by.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Deane, don't try to hit the ball out of the park on this first layout. Much of the knowledge and experience you need to get to that "perfect" layout will be gained by building and operating a "rough draft" layout.
> 
> I myself am on my 4th layout (one as a teenager, and 3 since returning to the hobby in 2001). #3 was an expanded version of #2, using much of the same trackwork, while #4 is a complete do-over.
> 
> We can tell you to add sidings or industries, or yards, or what have you, or you can do it because you think that's the right approach, but when you finally run a train, you might discover that you like sitting back with a cold beverage (or a hot one) and just watching trains go by.


Interesting thoughts. I did build one back in about 1963. Super mistakes. Hand laid ties, hand built switches, code 70 rail, all diretly on 3/4" plywood. Ever try to put rail spikes into plywood. Had to drill every one with a dremel tool. When I got a loop going it was so noisy I hated it.

At 81 years of age, this is the last one I will ever build, not the first one, so I'm trying to get it partially right the first time, and depending on you guys to chime in when you observe something that needs to be pointed out.

Yes, I will probably just run trains, no operating sessions, no operating partners, no prototypical approah, just train watching and admiring the performance of the newer products. I also like the artistic part of creating scenes to reflect reality, much like our higher end engines and cars already do. For me, they need a setting to complete the picture, not just a shelf to sit on.

Back to my plan: The plan doesn't have a freight yard, just a huge engine terminal for both steam and diesel. Why? Because I'm a nut for collecting engines and where better to display them than in a well designed engine terminal. One with a huge coaling tower (ala Cheyenne style), huge turntable, roundhouse, diesel refueling and repair, etc. I want this to be the showplace of the layout. Lots of LED lighting to 

For the layout, I've acquired 12 cars of the BLI California Zephyer, the Proto Union Pacific Heritage fleet of yellow cars, and a U.S. Army WWII hospital train. All need to be displayed and run. I'm woefully short on places for these components to fit in. Oh yes, and 3 BLI E8 diesels in Burlington, a 3 unit Genesis F3 Passenger A-B-A in Burlington paint. These all need to stretch their legs. Almost forget, a couple of BLI SD7s and a couple of BLI UP SW1500s. All ready to go to work on the layout.

The above is why I'm bothered by the layout not being where it needs to be in terms of design.

I guess that's what Model Railroading is all about, researching, planning, learning, executing.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Deane

I went back and reviewed your posts from the
beginning and didn't notice whether or not you plan to go
with a DCC system.

I also had a better look at your most recent track
plans.

You plan to do more train running than switching
it seems. Since you have a single track main line
you could have more action on it if you are DCC and
thus able to run two or more trains at the same time
and in opposite directions without complicated 
electrical wiring and tricky switch flipping.

That operation, though, needs passing sidings. You
would need 3 or 4, and you would want them to be
long enough to fit your longest passenger train.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR, good points on the passing sidings. Helps me focus. I started this thinking just running trains in a loop and it got out of hand.

Yes, it will be DCC. I love it. I have a top of the line MRC now with two throttles, one tethered and one cordless. I've also got BLI Rolling Thunder, but in only one BLI SD7 so far. I have a BLI UP Big Boy with Rolling Thunder on pre-order reserve. I didn't buy the BLI sub-woofer as I had a spare 15" sub just sitting here unused.

At the risk of beating this drum to death, I want to say again that I really appreciate the comments that are posted. They wake me up to reality on things I haven't thought of. It's also great to have fresh educated eyes looking at things from a different perspective.

I'd like to get the plan complete, then build the benchwork and the main loop with switches installed in the loop so I can run a train. Then, I can begin adding trackage for the sidings, etc. as I go along.

I'm fearful I might be designing a monster for me to deal with. I'm not retired, so it's not something I spend weekdays working on. Yet, I'm not one to go half way on things. I'm widowed, and outside of running a business and model railroading, I have nothing to spend my time on so I'm hopeful it might work out.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

OK, here's an update on the track plan. I've added one long passing siding on the main line, a longer siding at the passenger station, and filled in some possibilities on the credenze that indicates it's a passenger car storage yard.

I'm woefully short of freight car handling capabilities at this point.

A couple of structures have been added. One is the Walther's ADM grain tower facitlity. Since I can make decals, it will be relabeled with"Farmers Co-op, Creston, Iowa. My father was one of the share holders and on the Board of Directors when the pink Farmers Coop cars were purchased and put into service. I have about a dozen of them and want a place to park the cars that reflected their original usage. I'm hoping to be able to authentically weather the structure and spill some grain as was the case with the orginal. Right now, I'm showing a siding in one side, but I'm thinking that might become the place to model trucks dumping the corn coming in from the farms. I drove one of those into that location with a load of corn more than once.

I've also added a location for the Walther's Car Repair facility in the passenger car yard. Not labeled. A good place to park a coulpe of BLI California Zephyer cars for display.

A little bit larger rendition of the current state of the layout plan is included.

I appreciate comments and take them seriously.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Looking good.

But you are going to be seriously limited in the number of
cars you can 'work' in your lower right yard because the
tail of your ladder track is quite short. Any hope of extending it?
Perhaps letting it curve toward the right wall.

There may be another way: Reverse the entire yard. Let the
lead track angle toward the right wall forming the ladder track
with the spurs going toward the top. That would let you pull ALL
of the cars out of any yard track. You may be able to place
what I assume is the loco service bldg and track across the lower
left with a turnout off the lead track.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I've been looking at that issue all day. The issue is that's the room entrance.

The dark gray rectangle represents some non movable shelves. Right below is a light gray rectangle with some tracks into it. That just happened to be Walther's car repair industry I was trying there.

I'll puzzle it some more with your suggestions in front of me.

Thanks for your input.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

OK, DonR, I tore into it. Like a kid arranging speghetti on his plate.

Long, long switching lead, longer yard, better all around. Good suggestions you made. The building at the bottom is Walther's car repair facility. I think it would look nice in that corner with several passenger cars poking out.

https://www.walthers.com/car-shop-kit-11-5-8-x-8-13-16-x-7-5-8-quot-29-5-x-22-4-x-19-4cm

The latest incarnation is attached. It also has some modification on the long wall on the left, but it's sort of a work in progress. Meantime, I'm slowly clearing the room for eventual bench construction.

And my mind remains open to suggestions. Between the recommendations on here, and learning the software, I've accomplished a lot considering I started with no clue on what to do.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Oh yes, now you're cooking. I like your changes. Since
you'll likely be taking one loco at a time to the loco
repair shop the relatively short 'tail' to the shop lead
may work but if you have a big boy or other long
loco it may be too short.

I greatly enlarged the new track plan and do see that
there are NO reverse loops. These old eyes thought
the crossover went thru while looking at the
fine lines. I have edited this post to correct 
my earlier opinion.


Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I'm having a little trouble figuring out where the reverse loops are created. Obviously, I'd prefer removing them, but I need to understand where they are before I can begin thinking about how it might be done.

I assume you're seeing the building in the lower right corner as engine repair facility, but it's actually a car repair structure. Same issue, however. I lengthened the tail track. I was careless in not making it longer when I did the drawing.

This has been an interesting learning experience.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

This looking much better and the 2 reverse loop are easy to handle. Time to start thinking about actual building (the fun part for me)


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I like your new design. At first, I thought you had a reverse loop as well, but after blowing up the image to see it better, I no longer see any reverse loops. I do see that AnyRail is highlighting a few places where your curves are tighter than your minimum radius (see where its overlaid a red centerline on some areas of your curves). I don't know what your minimum radius is set for, so you should check that out. Chances are you can smooth out most or all of them with some gentle tweaks of the track control points.

Mark


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> I like your new design. At first, I thought you had a reverse loop as well, but after blowing up the image to see it better, I no longer see any reverse loops. I do see that AnyRail is highlighting a few places where your curves are tighter than your minimum radius (see where its overlaid a red centerline on some areas of your curves). I don't know what your minimum radius is set for, so you should check that out. Chances are you can smooth out most or all of them with some gentle tweaks of the track control points.
> 
> Mark


The minimum radius is set for 30".

I still have issues with the long stretch along the left side. The yard there has little in the way of a tail track. I would like more industry along there, but don't want to make it any deeper than 24" due to reach issues.

I appreciate all of the thoughts and comments. They direct me to where I should be focusing on improvement.

Lemonhawk, you're right on. Construction will be fun. I'm still working on clearing the space, so this gives me time to work on the track plan in the meantime.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree. There are NO reverse loops. I have corrected
my post 54 and explained.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Awesome. Thanks to all.

Even though I've been in and out of model railroading since 1955, this is a whole new world. I started a garage size layout once in the 1960's, but made a lot of bad choices. The company transferred me after I got a loop going and I never did any layout work after that, only detailing and painting, a part I really like. Now, layouts are a whole new world. I love DCC. Can't wait to get the BLI California Zephyer rolling. I have a choice of two types front end power for the CZ, my Genesis Burlington A-B-A F3 set (DCC/Sound) or my trio of BLI Burlington E8's (DCC/Sound).

Again, thanks for the help. I has really made a difference.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I think there are 2 reverse loops, I can get to the same track going in a different direction on the loop around the roundhouse and on the other loop.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I think you may be confusing the 2 end loops as reversing loops when they are actually nothing more than parts of the larger circular track. When looking at plans like this, I try to envision them spread apart so that you can identify the circular path around the track. I then identify the "inside" and "outside" rails and follow them around the plan. If you ever find an "inside" rail that connects to an "outside" rail, then you have a reverse loop. That's not the case for this plan.

Mark


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I'll stand with 2 reverse loops. You can go around the loop and come back on the same track. Happens at both ends.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Lemonhawk

Expand the size of the OP's drawing on post 53. When
I first studied the layout, I too thought there were reverse
loops caused by a crossover in lower mid left area. But
after a couple other guys disagreed, I went back and
restudied it. The track lines are so close together it
is easy to think you are seeing that crossover, but it 
actually doesn't exist. I just rechecked and don't
find any reverse loops.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I enlarged the original drawing considerably and followed the track around and I don't find the loop. I'm certainly not as capable of recognizing it as you guys are, but I didn't find anything.

DonR is correct, there is a lot of track in limited areas and it's easy to have the eyes blend things together.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Well it seems you were right, there are no reverse loops. that being said I would be tempted to put them in to get more variety.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> Well it seems you were right, there are no reverse loops. that being said I would be tempted to put them in to get more variety.


You may be right. I was thinking about that as I made the search for thier existance.

Perhaps a double crossover on the long stretch on the left side. I would need to learn some things about the electrical issues.

Thanks for hanging in there on this Lemonhawk. It's how we get all the bugs worked out.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Crossovers connecting N bound and S bound tracks
in your layout would create 2 reverse loops and
require a different way of wiring. It can be done
though.

If you want a reverse loop I would suggest making it in one of the 'end' loops.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR said:


> Crossovers connecting N bound and S bound tracks
> in your layout would create 2 reverse loops and
> require a different way of wiring. It can be done
> though.
> ...


As I study this issue, checking through other threads, etc., I'm sort of convinced I should work to avoid creating a reverse loop. Despite the fact there is a lot of trackage on this layout plan, I'd still like to keep the concept simple.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I was following the discussion over in the "Bachman EZ" thread about the automatic reverse loop controllers but thought I should ask my question over here rather than hijack that thread.

Basically, I'd like to figure out how they work. Let's say you have a 4 unit diesel consist moving through the connecting turnout. That's about 3 feet of engine that's going to be spread over two sections of trackage with different polarity. How does this work out? I can't imagine a workable scenerio.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The very first wheel to cross the isolated barrier into the reverse loop will cause the reverser to put the rails in the reverse loop in phase with the track the engines are exiting, so the rest of the consist will not see anything unusual. This would continue around the loop until the engine get to the other end of the isolated reverse loop. At this point as the first wheels of the engine cross the isolated barrier the reverser will again change the phase of the reverse loop to match the track the engine is moving to. This switches the phase of the track that the rest of the consist is setting on but that again has no effect on the locomotives as they still see the DCC signal and are converting the track modulated (sort of A/C) power to DC and the decoders use this DC power to drive the electric motors in the engines. One of the reasons the power leads going to the electric motor in the engines needs to be isolated from the track power pickups. This is a really quick explanation but eventually the light bulb will turn on and all will become clear


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Well, that makes sense to me right away. I guess the next issue I need to figure out is where I would need to put isolation links in my trackplan. I think I'd put the crossovers in the long section on the left of the plan.

Would I be correct that once the locomotive has passed through, we don't care about the polarity for the cars since they are inert. I suppose something like passenger cars with LED lighting my require thinking about.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Deane

Lemonhawk has very clearly explained how the
Reverse Loop controller works. The length of the
isolated section should be at least as long as
your longest lighted passenger trains. The reason
for this is that if the loco truck spans the EXIT
insulated joiners at the same time as the truck
of a lighted passenger car spans the ENTRANCE
insulated joiners the reverse loop controller is
getting conflicting signals and will thus short 
circuit.

If you use the crossover in the left N and S bound
tracks you will create two reverse loops. That would
require 2 reverse loop controllers. This will also
require a different approach to your track wiring
in that area. I can advise you on that. 

You can make a reverse loop of either of the
end loops which would be easier.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR said:


> Deane
> 
> Lemonhawk has very clearly explained how the
> Reverse Loop controller works. The length of the
> ...


Thanks Don for the additional comments. The California Zephyer cars could become more than a dozen with 3 E8s on the front end. That could stretch a dozen feet or more, so I need to have that in mind.

To help me in making sure I am assembling a good understanding let me ask . . . as the mainline comes southward bound on the left side in the long straightaway, if I put a crossover to the opposing northbourd track along with a controller, is that all that would be required to have a single reverse loop on the layout? This would give me a place to reverse the direction of trains and keep the reversing issues to a minimum.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Deane

The crossover between N bound and S bound tracks
would create two reverse loops. The reason is that
you will have to wire the N & S bound tracks so
that the right rail on both is red wire and the left rail
is black wire. Otherwise you would have a short circuit
when you use the crossover. The crossover and attached
tracks would be powered by your main track buss.
The result of that
is that there is a phase mismatch above and below
the crossover. That then requires insulated joiners
to create an isolated section in both your upper and
lower return loops. Each will require a reverse
loop controller. Once installed and up working you
would never have to bother with the controllers again.
They are fully automatic and you soon forget they
are there.

The crossover will give you additional routes for
your trains and also give you the ability to run them
either clockwise or counter clockwise. 

Either or both of the two loops seems to be long
enough for your long passenger train, but you can
measure to make sure.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

I've continued to develop the track plan as I work to clear the room.

The gray squares represent industries, mostly Walther's Cornerstone. Some are labeled, but the type is too small to see on the jpeg. Probably the biggest change is the bridge on the right. I was bothered by the accessabiltiy to that side and the passenger station. I also wanted a bridge, and since this is a flat layout I didn't have a place for one.

I don't know whether to do a fixed bridge, or Walthers big lift bridge.

My big area of concern continues to be the reverse loop. I only need one as my concentration is not on operation, but rather running trains in an interesting fashion. Long trains.

I am wondering if I put a double crossover at the red X, is it workable. If so, where would I put the insulated rail joiners. I clearly understand positive and negative, but isn't track voltage a form of AC when using DCC? If so, what are we isolating against, a dead short. Or do I have it wrong, DCC track voltage is actually DC?

Enough questions for one post. All comments are appreciated and taken seriously.

Thanks for the help.

Deane


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You can install a double crossover where you have the
Red X. 

It would be wired exactly the same as I described
in my last post. Both the N bound and S bound
tracks would be wired identically so that trains
can move through the crossover without causing
a short.

You would install the insulated Joiners where i
had indicated in the last post.

DCC track current is a modified AC. AC doesn't use
the term polarity, instead it is referred to as Phase.
However, you cannot have the right rail ever touch
the left rail as it is a short circuit, just as you may have
seen, if somehow an electric cord was frayed and the
two wires touched in a shower of sparks.

When you get ready to wire your layout we'll guide
you.

Don


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I would separate the double crossovers into singles spaced apart. That just eliminates a lot of headaches that double crossovers have and its a lot cheaper.


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR, I think it's finally beginning to click. I hadn't stopped to realize that I had heard somewhere that the track voltage was a form of AC. When I refocused on that this morning, I realized why you were using the term "phase" instead of "polarity. It is phase and it would make sense it would be 180 degrees out if the rails are reversed suddenly. I don't know exactly what might occur when it is violated, but I assume it could involve "smoke" in some form, or at least sparks.

For now, I think I have enough grasp to stop worring about it and concentrate on getting to the benchwork start phase.

Lemonhawk: Thanks for that thought. Probalby you're right. What I'm trying to do is make sure it's not possible to stumble into hitting two crossovers with a single train of considerable length. I figured that with a double crossover that woudn't be possible, but I think it probably wise to take a simpler route. I'll take a look at it. Looking at the software on a large computer screen sure beats the good old days of drawing scribbles on a piece of paper.

I've updated the track plan above to add the separate crossovers. If I understand this configuration correctly, a train crossing to the other track, and immediatly back to the original track would likely blow something up?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Deane

I don't have any double crossovers, but I do have
one single crossover. It has only 2 buttons that
set the points straight or cross. I would think you would wire
the 4 turnouts in the double so that all four sets of
points throw with the push of one button for straight,
and one button for crossing. 

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR, you just made it simple. Thanks. I was thinking that I should set this up so that it's not possible to use them in a manner that could cause an issue.

The things to work with in the hobby are so far ahead of where they were when I was last active, it's an intersting experience to learn how to do things the new way. But, it's certainly brought a lot of new enjoyment to the activity. I haven't even begun to think about how to control the switches yet, which to use switch machines on, which to use hand throw, etc. With the number of switches I have in my plan, it would be cheaper to pay off the national debt than to buy switch machines for each one.

I've been reading a lot of posts on the internet about benchwork and what to do to make the track silent. I'd rather not glue things down, wanting to leave some ability to make changes. Homasote seems to hold nails and spikes fairly well and handle sound decent. At the moment, I'm thinking 5/8" plywood and homasote. My layout plan doesn't run through countryside, but mostly flat industrial and RR facilities.

I'd like to do a lot of animation. Properly lit buildings, maybe operating signals, maybe crossing gates, possibly even BLI's new thunder and lightening, though I don't know anything about it yet. 

Deane


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

DonR said:


> Deane
> 
> I don't have any double crossovers, but I do have
> one single crossover. It has only 2 buttons that
> ...


One turnout controller will work for a double crossover but what the op has is 4 turnouts and
they need to be switched in pairs not all four. 
One pair for the two turnouts going from inside to outside and a different controller for outside to inside. 
If you throw all four you end up back on the original track again. 

Magic


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Magic

I agree that if you created the 'double crossover' using
4 turnouts there is the capability of returning to the
original track if all 4 sets of points were set with the
same button. Fpr that situation I would throw only both
mating turnouts with one button.

But I interpreted Deane as asking about a commercial double crossover which would not have that capability when using
the one button fires all system.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

Based on the general concern for the reliability of double crossovers, I've changed the plan to two sets of single crossovers. I'm clear on the requirement for a single button to choose the routing of two switches. I'll have to learn the requirements of the phasing controller when I get to setting up that function.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Deane

You won't go wrong with the 4 turnout design
that you have decided on.

The wiring of this section is critical, as I have been
saying all along. You must wire the two parallel
tracks connected by the crossovers as if they
are a double track. Both right rails are Red wire,
both left rails are black wire powered by the
main DCC buss. That will keep these
tracks in phase. The isolated sections will be
created in the two end loops.

Don


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

DonR said:


> Deane
> 
> You won't go wrong with the 4 turnout design
> that you have decided on.
> ...


That's making sense to me. So, we don't do the phase correction in the crossovers as I was trying to think, but further down the line.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You are correct. The two tracks will be in phase
at the crossover. We'll have the isolated reverse
loop sections in the end loops. That's where they will
be out of phase but brought in phase by the reverse
loop controllers. You'll need 2.

Don


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