# Question about #60 Trolley



## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

My postwar trolley has been getting progressively weaker and sluggish. I may have been oiling the center hole too frequently as a result. I took off the brush plate cover and cleaned the brush plate, commutator and brushes with pot cleaner. I greased the worm gear and bumper slides with white grease and oiled the axles. It still runs slow and weak. I know the trolley is geared down for slow operation, but I know how it used to run. I noticed that the brush towers get burning hot to the touch. Could that mean that the brush springs are making poor contact with the brush holder and arcing? Any ideas? Thanks


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*More on the trolley problem*

Does that armature have 3 separate windings? One looks blackened and two are shiny copper colored. Could there be an open in one of 3 armature windings, while the other two are still functioning? Again, those brush towers are extremely hot to the touch. Ouch. Also seems faster in one direction and slower in the other. Not my old spunky trolley.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

The brushes probably soaked up your excess oil and whatever cleaner you used. They need to stay dry to work properly.

You should probably look at replacing them


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Larry g, make sure everything is clean. I know some here put a small drop of oil on the communicator. Too much oil? I don't know. Check that the brush tubes are clean. Maybe the brusehes are worn out and don't have enough tension? I've only seen that first hand once. But I would look t the wiring, they shouldn't over heat. There is a way to check the communicator segments but I've been told that it's a rare thing to have one go bad. I'm thinking short of some sort. Someone else will chime in who knows better then me.


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

Larry
From what you've said, it sounds like the brushes and possibly the brush plate should be replaced. Does the inner side of the brush plate look a bit blackened or sooty black?
I looked at my Trolley and the plate is pretty clean and the brushes have a good contact against the commutator. Check closely, you'll find the gremlin.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Sounds like one winding of the Armature is in the process of letting all the magic smoke out.hwell:

That would definitely cause the brushes and brush holders to get excessively hot.

Only fix is to re-wind the arm, or, find a replacement.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

It sounds like a bad armature. Take out the armature, and clean the copper commutator with naptha. Check each segment of the commutator to the other 2 with an ohmmeter. You should get a very low reading, and all readings should be very close to each other. Then check each commutator segment to the shaft, and you should get an open circuit (infinity reading). Any abnormal reading indicates a bad winding.

Larry


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*Question on my readings on the armature*

When I zero in the ohm meter I get the following between each face of the commutator:
.6 ohms, .8 ohms, 1.2 ohms. Are these close enough to each other? (Not much resistance between any of them.)


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*Also*

Also, no shorts to the shaft.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Thanks for posting your results. Make sure you are using the highest range on the ohmmeter when checking for shorts to the shaft. A high resistance short may not show up when using the low ohms range.

The readings may appear to be good, although the high reading, although only .6 ohm higher, is double the low reading. This may be a problem in running the motor. Thoroughly clean the entire motor and lubricate it, replacing the brushes and springs if necessary. Wire up the motor directly to the transformer bypassing the e-unit, and see how it runs. If the motor still gets very hot, then the armature may be bad. The Motor Doctor can test and rewind the armature if needed.

Larry


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

T Larry, I think the answer is right here. "One looks blackened and two are shiny copper"

That quote was in reference to the armature windings.

Seems pretty clear that one winding has already let the magic smoke out. That would explain the .6 ohm reading.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Since one winding is blackened, it is probably bad and the armature should either be replaced or rewound. The resistance readings are quite different indicating a problem. 

I have a trolley partially disassembled. The armature reads 0.9 ohms between any two of the commutator plates. It appears you have a bad armature. 

The meter I used is a Fluke 179. When I touch the leads together, I get 0.7 ohms. Across any two of the armature plates I get 1.6 ohms. The difference is 0.9 ohms which is the resistance of the armature windings.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Not good news, anyone know roughly how much it would cost to rewind a armature? Just curious. And thanks for the link, never knew anyone would rewind small motors


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

They are not difficult to rewind yourself.


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## ives1122 (Mar 20, 2014)

sjm9911 said:


> Not good news, anyone know roughly how much it would cost to rewind a armature? Just curious. And thanks for the link, never knew anyone would rewind small motors


My guy usually charges about $100 for a brand new custom built armature w/ commutator, a complete re-wiring, new brushes and springs, and complete check-up.
Just to give you a rough idea of what you're in for.


This is quite a common issue in the trolleys if you use them regularly.
They need regular cleaning and maintenance.
I have had mine rebuilt twice in 20 years of ownership.

The new trolleys have their issues as well, so I would just get your old one fixed.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ives1122 said:


> My guy usually charges about $100 for a brand new custom built armature w/ commutator, a complete re-wiring, new brushes and springs, and complete check-up.
> Just to give you a rough idea of what you're in for.
> 
> 
> ...


That seems like a lot of money, your talking about HO trolley's?
This one (#60) is an O gauge, I would think it would be cheaper to find the parts to replace it.
Send it to the T man, he can fix it. :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If it is the armature. The armature is part number 41-40, I can't see one on the Traintender though that is not to say he can't get one.

I see one here for $39.95, http://www.drtinkertrains.com/catalog/Parts List 0412.pdf

If Jeff has one it would probably be a little cheaper?
Give him a call?
http://www.ttender.com/

I would have thought that this armature would have been used in other trains too?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The same armature was used on the #'s 41, 42, 51, 53 and 56 switchers that used a similar frame and gearing setup.

Call the Motor Doctor for a quote on an armature rewind. If the rest of the motor is in good shape, that is all you need. No need for a complete motor rebuilding if it is not needed. 

Larry


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wow that is a bit of $$$. I only have one that's shot, it's not worth it to me to fix it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd look around for a used armature, paying to have one rebuilt will cost more than the trolley is worth.


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## ives1122 (Mar 20, 2014)

big ed said:


> That seems like a lot of money, your talking about HO trolley's?
> This one (#60) is an O gauge, I would think it would be cheaper to find the parts to replace it.
> Send it to the T man, he can fix it. :thumbsup:


No, not HO.
I'm talking about postwar Lionel.

I agree that repair is expensive and that finding a used armature may be a cheaper option.
Typically, repairing old trains and automobiles can often exceed their value.
I'm not saying you need to get a new hand-built custom armature.....just mentioning that it is an option available.

That being said, my #60 trolley was a special gift to me when I was a child, and I will always repair it, regardless of cost.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

There is a YouTube video of rewinding motors.

The user name is tmackinator, I think. I just type in 'Lionel Repair' and this guy's video shows up.

I think he has one on Marx rewinds, and another on Flyer O, I think. I would guess that the Lionel wouldn't be very different.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

ives1122 said:


> No, not HO.
> I'm talking about postwar Lionel.
> 
> I agree that repair is expensive and that finding a used armature may be a cheaper option.
> ...


I'd try for a used armature, and I bet that same one could be found in a lot of different motors.

I found a pic of one...










And now I'm trying to find an exploded view with parts numbers. I'll edit this post if I can find it.

I totally understand your sentiment, as I also got a trolley when I was kid. The Broadway stores were closing down and my Mom bought me a #60 on closeout for $5... 

...and I still have it today. 

Edit: Sorry, could not find any part number information, but I did find this armature for the #50 gang car. It's in stock for $23 at Hennings Trains (link to part below)...










http://store03.prostores.com/servlet/henningstrains/the-1194/50-dsh-50-Gang-Car-Armature/Detail

It looks really close, but I'm not certain that it's interchangeable with the #60. Maybe one of the Lionel experts here knows for sure. If you could make it work, it could mean a new life for your little trolley. 

Greg


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The armature for the #50 is not the same as for the trolley. They may look similar, but there may be a difference in the worm gear cut into the shaft. The trolley and gang car have different worm wheels, thus the armatures are probably not interchangeable. Olsens has the 41-40 armature listed for $24.95.

Larry


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

TrainLarry said:


> The armature for the #50 is not the same as for the trolley. They may look similar, but there may be a difference in the worm gear cut into the shaft. The trolley and gang car have different worm wheels, thus the armatures are probably not interchangeable. Olsens has the 41-40 armature listed for $24.95.
> 
> Larry



Thanks for the info, Larry... 

No wonder I couldn't find the actual part number for the #60's armature! It also fits all of the variations of the #41 engine. :laugh:










Greg


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

TrainLarry said:


> The armature for the #50 is not the same as for the trolley. They may look similar, but there may be a difference in the worm gear cut into the shaft. The trolley and gang car have different worm wheels, thus the armatures are probably not interchangeable. Olsens has the 41-40 armature listed for $24.95.
> 
> Larry


Is this why the 60 trolley is slower than the 50 gang? 

Did Lionel achieve the slower speeds by gearing down and changing the armature shaft?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Looks like it. The arm in the top pic is only a one start worm, the other pics are all 3 start worms.

A 3 start worm will travel 3 times the distance on a single turn of the armature than a 1 start worm.

1 start worms give much better low speed control.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Greg (or anyone else), like said 41=40 is the part number for the armatures on both of them.
$24.95 is not a bad price for a new one on Olsen's site. Thanks Larry, I couldn't find it.

Listed is all the others it fits,
41-40 $24.95 A
armature assy, orig (MH)
-41-42-51-52-56-53-60- motor units
What would the MH stand for?

Look here all the part numbers are listed for the #60. With diagrams,
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=490

Here is for the #41 in case you need it. With diagrams,
http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/41.htm


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

I also found those Olsen thumbnails, Ed... but was unable to view the actual expanded pictures. But I agree that's a really good deal.  Looks like the armature in the pic had one of the poles rewound. 










You can see the wire is a different color from the other. All that matters is that it works.

Greg


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Have seen several Lionel arms wound in two different colors, pretty sure the came from the factory that way.

They seem to be the same colors used on the double wound Stator Coils.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have several engines with multi-color wire on the armature, and I know they were never rewound. As stated, I think they did that for production reasons. It could be to avoid mixing up the wires connecting to the commutator, but that's just a guess.


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*Fixed! Thanks to all!*

Thanks to all of you for your help with my trolley. I learned how to check an armature, got more comfortable reassembling brushes, and learned about over oiling. Jake and Patrick nailed it on this one:



santafe158 said:


> The brushes probably soaked up your excess oil and whatever cleaner you used. They need to stay dry to work properly.
> 
> You should probably look at replacing them


It was the brushes. I had over oiled, and over cleaned with liquid spray, and the brushes soaked it all up. Number 60 is back on the line. My layout was nowhere near the same without her. Thanks to all!!
-lar


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

PS Total cost: $1.70 plus shipping from Jeff at the Train Tender.
(cheaper than a sports car hobby)


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I clean brushes by wiping them with a paper towel. I clean the commutator with a ScotchBrite pad. After I reassemble the motor, I oil the commutator with motor oil. It reduces the friction and does not cause problems with the electrical operation of the commutator.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> Greg (or anyone else), like said 41=40 is the part number for the armatures on both of them.
> $24.95 is not a bad price for a new one on Olsen's site. Thanks Larry, I couldn't find it.
> 
> Listed is all the others it fits,
> ...


The MH? Anyone know what that stands for on the Olsen's site?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Looking through Olsens parts catalog, many original parts have the (MH) designation after them. My guess is these parts may have come from Madison Hardware.

Larry


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TrainLarry said:


> Looking through Olsens parts catalog, many original parts have the (MH) designation after them. My guess is these parts may have come from Madison Hardware.
> 
> Larry


Bingo thanks, that is what it is, I thought of a lot of things but forgot about the old Madison hardware.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

XXXXXXX

I know that the LIMITED on the traintenders site means limited quantities and once they are gone he might not get anymore.
Thanks again Larry.:thumbsup:

Edit,
I must have clicked the wrong thing, I went to just edit my last post.:dunno:

Edit 2,
I took out the wrong quote.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Madison Hardware is sorely missed. With the Lionel showroom long gone, I visited Madison Hardware many times in the early 70's. It was truly Lionel heaven.

Larry


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TrainLarry said:


> Madison Hardware is sorely missed. With the Lionel showroom long gone, I visited Madison Hardware many times in the early 70's. It was truly Lionel heaven.
> 
> Larry


I have only seen it in pictures.


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