# Perplexed re layout challenge



## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

Gents, if i'm to build a layout for my grandkids to use I've the challenge of plywood being to heavy for me to move around. I'm thinking of trying a 4x8 sheet of heavy installation board. Since it is a syrofoam material I'll have to figure out how affix the O track.

Any thoughts?

Thanks


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

What I did was to build a box frame then cut the 4 x 8 into 4 x 4 for installation. Much easier than man handling 4 x 8's.

Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know your situation, but some thoughts:
If it were me:
1) I'd ask the kids father to help with the board. That's actually what I do now in my case (a 4 x 8 would be too much for me, too).
2) If that didn't work, I'd buy pieces. At the Lowes and Home Depot near me I can get 2 x4 boards. I can handle those. I'd have to build a framework under them with 2" x 4"s, but I can handle one 2 x 4 x 8 foot at a time, I think.

Advice: build the table strong enough and stable enough that your grandkids can get up and walk on it. Because they will (I did when I was six).


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Depending on the track, you can use simple white glue to fix the track in place. It holds well, but will break loose with out too much problem if you need to adjust or change track sections.

Tom


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm assuming you have frame to attach the foam to.

If so, you could fasten track with white glue, latex caulk, and I've put a drop of super glue on a screw and screwed into the foam. be surprised how well it holds.

good luck.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

the frame just for added rigidity?


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

newoldguy said:


> the frame just for added rigidity?


Is the foam going to be on a platform, table, something raised or is it going to be on the floor?


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

haven't got that far yet................; will start on the floor; if i'm successful in "hooking" a couple of the grandkids into model trains I'll likely have to enhance the arrangement in which case it'll have to be on a raised platform of some kind but that will be "tomorrow's" challenge.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

Utilize you hardware store to cut the bits into manageable pieces. Think of it as building a modular layout


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I like the idea of getting help from a friend. If you can’t do that, see if your local store (Home Depot, Lowes or whatever) will rip a sheet of plywood I half so you have two 2’ X 8’ pieces or two 4’ X 4’ pieces. Another option is to get a thinner sheet of plywood (maybe 5/8” or ½” thick) that may be light enough to handle and use a panel carry. I use one to carry ¾” plywood…not easy, but I manage.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Panel-Carry-Orange-93-300K/202262083

I wouldn’t use just rigid foam by itself, especially if it’s going to be on the floor. You could use foam with thinner plywood such as 3/8” thick to back up the foam. Use a foam compatible adhesive such as Loctite PL300 to bond the foam to the plywood.

Unless you get a very good grade of plywood, it will most likely not be perfectly flat so you will need a frame of 2x3s, 2x4s or L girders.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2018)

All I can say to this is my wife and I are in our late seventies and in connection with building our new layout, we moved and placed 14 sheets of 3/4" 4x8 sheets of cabinet grade plywood. Would I want to do this everyday, no, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. *I would not build a layout on just Styrofoam.*


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## Ted W (Jan 15, 2017)

This is submitted as a “for what it’s worth”. Xmas layout only and temporary. 2” foam on 1” x 8” interlocking grid base. Not for everybody, but it is what it is. YMMV


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

hmmmmmmmmm, gives me some new ideas on how to accomplish my mission. did you secure the tubular track to the 2" foam? if not, any idea on best approach?


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## Ted W (Jan 15, 2017)

newoldguy said:


> hmmmmmmmmm, gives me some new ideas on how to accomplish my mission. did you secure the tubular track to the 2" foam? if not, any idea on best approach?


A number of members here had ideas. I chose to use white glue coated brown panel nails pushed into foam for the O27 tubular. And these #4 screws used the same way for the FT. Chose them because the head size fits flush into the fastrack holes, then painted them. No problems. Course the ballast aids in holding also.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Ted W said:


> This is submitted as a “for what it’s worth”. Xmas layout only and temporary. 2” foam on 1” x 8” interlocking grid base. Not for everybody, but it is what it is. YMMV


As a temporary setup, that looks like a great way to go. Easy to setup and store. Would probably also work quite well for a permanent setup. I think I would still want to back up the foam with something like 5mm luan, but I guess once you get all the scenery installed, there is little chance that someone will lean on or stand on the platform.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

Great, I see a path forward by combining the info provided in response to this posting with the forum's suggestion (different posting) that I consider Tinman for some track related needs. 

If successful and I get the grandkids excited about the trains I'll expand my investment.


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## Ted W (Jan 15, 2017)

Lehigh74 said:


> As a temporary setup, that looks like a great way to go. Easy to setup and store. Would probably also work quite well for a permanent setup. I think I would still want to back up the foam with something like 5mm luan, but I guess once you get all the scenery installed, there is little chance that someone will lean on or stand on the platform.


Here’s the storage in the “cave”. May not be ideal, but works ok. Is covered with the cheapest plastic drop cloth I could buy.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2018)

Temporary layout, I would be good with 2" high density Styrofoam, but a permanent layout, no. Very limiting.


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## Ted W (Jan 15, 2017)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Temporary layout, I would be good with 2" high density Styrofoam, but a permanent layout, no. Very limiting.


I agree, the “layout” I think about building to get it off the carpet will be conventional wood based. Still a lot of planning to do. I am watching your thread on that subject. Thx for starting it. I have a modest space available.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

I wonder why no one seems to use metal studs. They are inexpensive, light, square and true, and easily worked with hand tools.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

Once the dang rain stops here in Dallas I'll find the material needed and see if i can get it together this weekend. By the way the two trains I plan to use are my dad's 259 and my 646........both in great running condition.


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> All I can say to this is my wife and I are in our late seventies and in connection with building our new layout, we moved and placed 14 sheets of 3/4" 4x8 sheets of cabinet grade plywood. Would I want to do this everyday, no, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. *I would not build a layout on just Styrofoam.*


_
Whoa.... now that is one of those things where you have an MTF wood hauling party... that is a lot of work. Just goes to show your benchwork is as high quality as the layout...._


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

To attach track to styrofoam I use 2” two sided carpet tape. Put pieces under track joints. It held the track in place on my layout for 16 years before it was dismantled. I’m using it again when I build my next layout.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

wood have never tried that.....like that idea........will give it a fling! just waiting to get my hands on the sheet of ridged foam........and some track from Tinman.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

*2" rigid foamboard it iz!*

I've delayed this project long enuf. I am now the proud owner of a 4x8 sheet of 2" rigid foam board. Still lots of doubts in my mind that this will work but I'm going to give it a fling. 

1st things first: i'll need to somehow seal the sheet so that I can paint it and adhere typical layout material to it just as if it was plywood. I figure Kilz should do the job but am open to suggestions from ya'll.

Thanks,


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Any latex paint will adhere to rigid foam. I typically apply brown (earth colored) paint and sprinkle on the ground cover such as Woodland Scenics turf before the paint is dry.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Traindiesel said:


> To attach track to styrofoam I use 2” two sided carpet tape. Put pieces under track joints. It held the track in place on my layout for 16 years before it was dismantled. I’m using it again when I build my next layout.


Novel idea! Does the tape show through the ties? Will the exposed upside hold one layer of ballast to hide it?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

If you use screws to hold the track, run them in lightly, back them out, then dip them in white glue for final install. The white glue will seep into the foam, bond with it, and harden creating a "threaded insert" like hole for the screw. Since the glue doesn't bond to metal, the screw can be backed out anytime for future modifications.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

*2" rigid foamboard it iz!*



Lehigh74 said:


> Any latex paint will adhere to rigid foam. I typically apply brown (earth colored) paint and sprinkle on the ground cover such as Woodland Scenics turf before the paint is dry.


OK, got the paint...…….heading out to get the "turf" so I can tackle this phase tomorrow; soooo, you feel I don't need to get that 'scenic cement" I see on the web page.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Yes. I sometimes spritz a mist of diluted scenic cement or matte medium after I sprinkle on the ground cover. But I don’t put my track on rigid foam.

If you are going to glue or tape the track to the rigid foam, you want to do that before you apply the ground cover. In other words.
1. Paint the rigid foam and let it dry.
2. Install the track
3. Mask the track
4. Put a second coat of paint between the tracks (you can skip this if you want)
5. Apply the ground cover
6. Spray a mist of diluted scenic cement and let it dry
7. Remove the masking.

This is just one way to do it. You could also just paint the rigid foam green for grass, gray for roads, brown for dirt, etc.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

Lehigh74 said:


> Yes. I sometimes spritz a mist of diluted scenic cement or matte medium after I sprinkle on the ground cover. But I don’t put my track on rigid foam.
> 
> If you are going to glue or tape the track to the rigid foam, you want to do that before you apply the ground cover. In other words.
> 1. Paint the rigid foam and let it dry.
> ...


appreciate the "hand-holding"......at 73 I've learned not to be too proud


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Best of luck going forward.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

newoldguy said:


> appreciate the "hand-holding"......at 73 I've learned not to be too proud


“All the world is my school and all humanity is my teacher.”
― George Whitman


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

Spence said:


> Best of luck going forward.


thanks, thatz some serious layout(s) you have constructed; may steal an idea or two from your work


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

laid down a quick coat of earth colored base coat; couldn't wait for it to dry so found myself in the garage with a hairdryer; placed the track (loosely) in the intended design; more later as I consider some enhancements before I secure the track; will try to attach a photo or three; thanks for all the help...but will need more if ya'll are willing


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Moving along nicely.

I suggest painting the edges of the foam panel. Not only will it look nicer, it will strengthen the edge and limit damage to the exposed foam cells.

If it were me, I'd "paint" the edge with wood glue and then paint color over that. Or glue wood slats to the edge. I imagine the edges taking a beating reaching over the table to re-rail trains, add objects, etc.

We installed a 16' bench in my bud's electronic workshop. The top was quality plywood. It didn't take long for the edges to start chipping.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

Agree that the edges need protection; my plan is to find a very lightweight material and affix to the edges... probably with 2" or so width extension ("railing") in effort to keep trains from leaving the layout when the grandkids start playing with it.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

As I tweak the layout I find myself considering some enhancements but not sure what will work. 1) note the white Styrofoam as a mock up for giving the one outside loop some interest by raising it a bit. Does anyone know how much of an elevation is possible within that run of track? 2) related question: I have my original (1950s) No 110 trestle set still in the box; thinking of using it IF the trestle isn't too high within that same run of track.

thanks


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

newoldguy said:


> Agree that the edges need protection; my plan is to find a very lightweight material and affix to the edges... probably with 2" or so width extension ("railing") in effort to keep trains from leaving the layout when the grandkids start playing with it.


 I have had a few engines and cars fall of the layout! It wasn’t kids it was me!! A plexiglass strip around the edges keeps sight open but won’t let engines take the death plunge!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

newoldguy said:


> ... in effort to keep trains from leaving the layout when the grandkids start playing with it.


Good luck with that 

I saw your bridge, see below.

I assume your panel is 4'x9'. I counted tracks from your pic.'s; they didn't fit on 4'x8'. Anyway, the "3D View" shows road bed ala Fastrack. The model is actually based on Lionel O tubular. So there's more room between tracks than illustrated.

The grade is 4%+, likely twice recommended (others will know better).

There's several "half" straights (5505) and a few custom cuts (or cut all the halves as well). The S/W provides exact lengths in inches for the custom cuts.

The size of the bridge depicted is limited by S/W. Your's may be a bit longer. They may require a little "finagling" to get clearance for the inner loop around the bridge's base.

You can operate two trains on this layout with stop & go at the common section, lower left (that can be automated fairly simply).


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## POTRZBE (Jul 30, 2015)

I got 2 patio tables from Menards, put them side by side, added 2 inch thick pink foam in 2x4 sheets, added Astro turf type indoor/outdoor carpet, added lots of FasTrack, and voila instant and portable/knockdownable layout.


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## newoldguy (Feb 11, 2018)

*2" rigid foamboard it iz!*



newoldguy said:


> appreciate the "hand-holding"......at 73 I've learned not to be too proud


thought that with all the help I get from this forum I ought to update ya'll on my progress; not quite finished yet and had plenty of challenges but I now have my layout loosely in place; you might find it interesting on my method for routing wiring....note the grooves in the foamboard that will eventually be covered with "grass" or whatever. had to add a "shelf" for the controls rather than use layout real-estate for such admin.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

newoldguy said:


> haven't got that far yet................; will start on the floor; if i'm successful in "hooking" a couple of the grandkids into model trains I'll likely have to enhance the arrangement in which case it'll have to be on a raised platform of some kind but that will be "tomorrow's" challenge.


So I gather the board will start on the floor without a platform. In that case, I would think you want the 4x8 board intact - in one 4x8 piece - as there won't be framework to hold smaller sections together. It could be raised a bit for the young 'uns by placing most anything underneath - a bunch of tin food cans, old paint cans, buckets, etc.

And I would glue some wood around it's four edges. That would keep it's edges intact as people climb over the edge to re-rail trains, place scenery, etc.; and if the board will be stored away when not in use. Perhaps with a little "lip" to keep trains from falling off if it is raised up.

I've heard others suggest commonly available Ping Pong tables for a simple layout. A ping Pong table is 5' x 10". That would afford a little more room for an O-scale layout. And it comes with its own "legs".

For my in-progress layout build, I was still able to manage 1/2" 4' x 8' OSB boards by myself (strained a tendon doing it - should have bought one of those sheet rock carriers). If I couldn't, my neighbors would help me. If not for that, I would have sought and enlisted a couple of HS boys to move it for me - $5 bucks each for 5 minutes work to move them in position ...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Looks nice! Keep it going .


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## jimben (Jun 27, 2018)

My layout uses a 4 x 8 plywood cut in two 2 x 8 sections and detachable from the frame. Lighter and not awkward to handle.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

nice start!!!
i was going 4x8 which turned into 6.4x10 lol... just that extra bit added a lot. i am going to do a controller area too...but i did a turn area to gimme some layout room for what im going to do....


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## NewTexan (Apr 29, 2012)

I built 4x4 tables with 1/2" plywood then put homeasote over the plywood. It is similar to bulletin board material. It deadens sound and is very easy to put screws (my preference) or nails into. I used 2x2 lumber for legs and used lag screws to connect 4x4 tables to one another. A cross brace at the ends of the constructed 4x8 table is a good idea. I did not add the homeasote until the tables were erected -- easier to move and carry them without the added weight.


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