# 3656 Cattle Loader Troubleshooting



## Martin (Mar 4, 2016)

Hi:

I am new to the forum. After having my tracks stored away for years I am enjoying the new layout. However, some of the assessories are a night mare. So far so good on the Barrel Loader. The Cattle Loader instructions suggest obtaining power from a lock on. I opted to go for fixed voltage to the "B" terminal on the ZW. Otherwise all my wiring is consistent with the instructions. The Cattle Pen works fine but the car does not vibrate at all and doors remain shut. Note: When I put the Cattle Car on a special 6019 track the doors open and it works fine.

I have the correct "O" Gauge Power Blade and Ground Blade. The track and platform are adjusted to the proper height for "O" 

Questions: If the Car works on a 6019 track can i assume the contact shoes work on the car?

I read the repair manual and it says the solder joint under the operating terminal has to make contact with the brass spring underneath that leads then to the power blade. I bent the spring up to increase the contact pressure. I actually ran a wire from the power terminal directly into the brass that accompanies the power blade skipping the solder joint. I even wrapped a wire around the solder joint under the power terminal into the blade where there is another brass contact. 

I am very frustrated and would appreciate any suggestions……Thanks so much!


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Martin posted:
> I am very frustrated and would appreciate any suggestions……Thanks so much!



The 3556 is probably one of the most difficult Lionel accessories to make work properly. I just rebuilt mine and it works fairly well.

Here are my suggestions. 

1. Get a copy of Greenberg's Repair and Operating Manual for Lionel Trains 1946-1969. It is an invaluable resource. Go to page 292 and check on the wiring diagram and the parts included. 

2. Check/clean all of the wiring, soldered joints and contact points. You may not be getting a connective contact between the car and the corral. Repair, rewire as needed.

3. On the Corral and on the Cattle car there are several adhesive washers that are probably all dried out and worn. Replace them. I use Jeff Kane from the Train Tender, he has a good supply of parts and if you call him he is very knowledgeable and helpful.

4. Read the tips, there are several good ones. 

5. Fudge around and play around. It will work.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a link to a post I wrote a few years ago telling how to make the cattle car work.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=180829


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## Martin (Mar 4, 2016)

*Problem making Contact with the car*

Thanks for your replies. The platform actually works fine and the cattle move well and head into the car.
The problem is the car doors will not open and the car will not vibrate. The power terminal on the cattle loader has a solder joint under it that is supposed to make contact with the yellow copper contact strip (part number 3656-165) which runs under the contact blade and makes a 90 degree turn. like an inverted letter "L". 

Also the car works fine when I put it on a 6019 special track so I know the wired contact shoes and coil are good. I ran the cattle loader without the sub platform in conjunction with the 6019 and everything works fine but I do not want to have to operate 2 different switches (364 and 6019).

The 3656-165 piece was very brittle and sheared off. I shoved it back together under the tab that held it in place. Under it is the gray contact paper which I tried to move closer to the contact strip. I even attached a wire to the solder joint and into the contact blade. 

I am hoping for suggestions on how to get the current working on the car side using the ground and power blades.

BTW do you have a picture of the springs you are talking about. FYI I was able to build up the grommets with spongy double sided tape and still get plenty of vibration and the lift that i needed to align everything properly.

Thanks again..martin


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Martin, you either have a bad slide contact or you are not getting good alignment with the blade or no ground to your trucks.The car grabs its negative from the tracks and positive power from the slide connecting to the blade. Nothing more complicated then that.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Wood, there are two sliding shoes on the cattle car, and two blades to contact them.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

QUOTE]Servoguy posted: Wood, there are two sliding shoes on the cattle car, and two blades to contact them.[/QUOTE]

Correct Servoguy. The forward blade is only a ground plane that connects the corral and the 3656 car. The ground for the car itself is achieved through the frame via the trucks.

Martin, the problem is making sure you have an electric circuit. You have to have a positive and negative contact and the solution is to trace the circuit. Something is not connecting. You told us the car works on a 6019 controller track which I am a little surprised about. It might just be that someone rewired the 3656 car. Make sure all the wires are attached and the slide planes are good with their wiring and the Power blade is connecting to the slide. Often the slide pickups become worn and do not make good contact with the power blade.

Below is the Greenberg wiring diagram.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Wood, this statement is incorrect:

"The ground for the car itself is achieved through the frame via the trucks."

Look at the wiring diagram. There are two blades. 

Martin, do you have the extender for O gauge on the ground blade?


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

OK, servoguy. I do beg to differ, Per the instructions below the diagram "THE ELECTRICAL CIRCUIT IS COMPLETED NOT ONLY THROUGH THE GROUND WHICH IS WIRED TO THE TRACK LOCKON BUT THROUGH THE FRAME TO THE OUTSIDE RAILS, AS INDICATED BY THE DOTTED LINE."

The only reason Lionel put that on there is because they painted the corral and wanted to be sure there was a solid ground. Additionally, that forward ground blade does insure there is a common ground between the car and the corral. 

Where the ground comes from isn't Martin's problem. He is asking for help and the fact is, he does not have a complete circuit in the 3656 car. 

You have a lot of experience with these units. I read, with interest, your post and thought long and hard about the springs. Thank you for posting, but mine works very well in its original condition. So, moving on let's help Martin. What might you suggest he try?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I am going to tell you one more time. There is no connection of the solenoid to the frame of the car. You can't tell how the car is wired from the above diagram. 

There are two blades for the power blade. The O gauge blade is taller than the O-27 blade. There is a blade extender that goes on the ground blade for use with O gauge track. If that extender is missing, the ground blade will not touch the sliding shoe. I suspect that is what is wrong since Martin has not mentioned this blade extender.

I have 4 cattle pens and 6 cars and have been working with them since the '50s.


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## Martin (Mar 4, 2016)

*3656 Troubleshooting*

Hi Guys:

The Power blade is "O" Gauge and is in very good condition and extends high enough to seemingly make contact with the slides.

The car has never been rewired and is my car from when I was a kid. It works flawlessly on the 6019 special track. The car doors shoot up like lighting. The grounding blade is also the correct one. The slide shoes have to be good if they work on the 6019 special track. They are clean and in good shape.

The power casing with Rivets is in good shape and has the copper contact inside.

The track snaps in tight to the ground clips

I put a level on the track and everything is level.

I think the problem is with the Contact strip. When I looked the contact strip and the contact paper were separated a bit. The contact strip bends upwards to make contact with the solder joint that is below the power terminal. I paper clipped the contact paper to the brass contact strip to make sure all was together. When the Loader did not initially work I bent the contact strip up closer to the solder joint. Part of the contact strip actually sheared off so I shoved it back under the tab so its real tight and making good contact…I think.

I tried to jump a wire from the wired in power terminal directly to the copper contact strip. I did not solder it but just put it snugly in the power casing and then also tried to wrap it somewhere further down that contact strip. I decided to try to use fixed voltage rather than the track lock on so hence my power terminal and ground terminal are wired back into the "B" post of my ZW. Could that be the problem? 

I painted the cattle loader many years ago to like new condition but was careful not to get paint on the contact papers.

Next stop is the train store as I am really frustrated. With the car on the 6019 track the pen and car work real good together but i am afraid it will burn out the 6019 controller if i keep holding the button down. Is there a way to operate and wire the 6019 special track in tandem with the 364 controller so I do not have to use the 6019 "Load and Unload Controller" and those buttons?

Thank you both so much for your continued interest.

Martin


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## Martin (Mar 4, 2016)

*Troubleshooting*

Note:

When I wired back to the "B" Post Ion the ZW I wired the ground terminal back to the "Common" as well.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Martin posted: Next stop is the train store as I am really frustrated.


Martin, I think that is a really good idea. It is hard to diagnose a problem without having your hands on it. A little guidance will improve your skills and is well worth the cost. You will see these types of problems in many postwar items. In a short time you will be sharing with us your own secrets. Good luck.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You could buy a meter at Harbor Freight for about $10. This would make debugging this problem much easier.


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## Martin (Mar 4, 2016)

*Bingo Fixed It!*

I finally got my 3656 loader working. The problem was the contact strip that had sheared off was separated from the gray contact paper. I replaced the brass contact strip with a light piece of aluminum and then wedged what was left of the original contact strip piece behind the contact paper making a tighter contact point between the gray paper and the contact strip.
It works great now.

I also took some double sided very thin spongy tape and put it under the cattle car "walkway" where the car doors open up and also inside the 3rd door. This elevated the metal walkway just slightly inside the car and the cattle seem to flow better. Basically the cattle go very fast from the Pen to the car door and go fast inside the cattle car. Where they get hung up mostly is on the "gang plank" going in and out of the car to the Pen.

Also my ZW is giving me problems so i am running the loader on terminal "D" which is probably not the best idea although I am not operating any trains on "D" right now. Nevertheless until I get the ZW fixed and have "B" and "C" working again I have all my accessories wired to that terminal. My layout is just roughed out and I am testing things at the moment. 

After running terminal "D" at the max to get the cattle past the "gangway" one of the lead wires to the loader started melting. I was using 22 gauge. Home depot had only 14 gauge so I temporarily wired the loader with 14 Gauge and no melt downs to report. Probably will go with 18 Gauge for the loader when I find some.

My Cattle are the original but I am hoping to find some "fresh" and mint boxed original to replace them with when I go to York in April as I think that will help also.

Thoughts?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Your on your way I like having a direct hook up for the accessories as you can controll the power. Some stuff operates better at different settings. Having it on full power to get it to work seems a bit off. I think, off the top of my head that it should operate between 12 and 15 volts, I looked it up. So maybe the platform vibration needs adjusting? There are 2 models. As far as your zw goes check this thread out. http://www.tranz4mr.com/ZW_Page.html


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