# Why are locomotives so expensive?



## Union Specific (Jul 23, 2012)

I've recently started my model railroading hobby and wanted to know why some model locomotives are so expensive.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

It can take a half mil or more to tool up a particular model. Divide that over a market of maybe 15 - 20,000 + modelers who may or may not want that particular engine and you get the idea why. In the old daze, molds were traded back and forth, common shell designs were used and motors were shared, making recouping production costs a lot easier. Now that John Q Modeler wants CB&Q 4-6-0 Whatzit as it was modeled in late fall 1953, it isn't an easy task to recoup costs.


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## gofisher2 (Jul 19, 2012)

It's just too expensive to manufacture here in the US unless it's very specialized. Hobbyests keep demanding more and more prototype specific products; which are more expensive to make. Costs keep going up here in the states; energy, raw materials, and labor.

While the development can be done here, it is far cheaper to manufacture in China and ship here. Manufacturer's know their markets and know what people are willing to pay for thier products. Athearn could make their engines here but you would pay a lot more than you do now and it would be costly to entroduce those nice new Genesis engines we keep seeing.

It's a sad state of affairs. I can't afford those Genesis engines. Yet, they keep making new ones so people must be purchasing enough of them to spur Athearn on to make more!

If you want to save money, go to train shows and look for used Athearn blue box engines; re-work them and tune them up and they will run good (though maybe a little noiser than current products).


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## brylerjunction (Aug 8, 2011)

shaygetz said:


> It can take a half mil or more to tool up a particular model. Divide that over a market of maybe 15 - 20,000 + modelers who may or may not want that particular engine and you get the idea why. In the old daze, molds were traded back and forth, common shell designs were used and motors were shared, making recouping production costs a lot easier. Now that John Q Modeler wants CB&Q 4-6-0 Whatzit as it was modeled in late fall 1953, it isn't an easy task to recoup costs.


tooling doesnt cost that much because the injection molding process is cheaper, what is expensive is the fine details and computer parts (sound and dcc) I got a new solicitation for FT Engines from Intermoutain the non sound dcc engine is $120 less than the sound equipped one..


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## brylerjunction (Aug 8, 2011)

gofisher2 said:


> It's just too expensive to manufacture here in the US unless it's very specialized. Hobbyests keep demanding more and more prototype specific products; which are more expensive to make. Costs keep going up here in the states; energy, raw materials, and labor.
> 
> While the development can be done here, it is far cheaper to manufacture in China and ship here. Manufacturer's know their markets and know what people are willing to pay for thier products. Athearn could make their engines here but you would pay a lot more than you do now and it would be costly to entroduce those nice new Genesis engines we keep seeing.
> 
> ...


its funny because many companies are doing the modeling and some PAD printing in the U.S. then they send the models to China to be assembled. The labor is cheaper, I know several companies that do that, for instance all of bowsers kits and rtr cars and some engines are made in the U.S., the kits are then sent to them in PA and the RTR and Engine stuff goes to China and is assembled and painted (if PAD printing is not done)and then sent back.

Its funny because when I was in the manufacturing of toys and collectibles we did everything in china


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## lears2005 (Feb 26, 2010)

I dont buy anything ready to run I like to buy blue box and other kits as they are cheaper. Now thats not to say I dont have a few rtr kits but that is because I got them really cheap or got them as a birthday gift or christmas gift


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Buy used / old ... add a little T.L.C. and bingo ... smiles all around!


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

Proto vs. Old-O....yes the new proto type locos are obviously newer and possibly better running than their older counterparts...it's what are you the hobbyist looking for. I'm in the latter and believe that for every new MTH NKP 2-8-4 there is an older model waiting to be picked up and refurbished. Detailing has always been a Model Railroaders dream and with older locos can be done for pennies...just how many pennies is up to YOU!!:thumbsup:


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Kits and super detailing kits are getting expensive also. I have priced at a retail store, a kit, DCC and detailing parts. It was only $20 cheaper to but the kit, than to buy the loco already set up.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

There's also another contributing factor... dollars are worth less.


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## gofisher2 (Jul 19, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Buy used / old ... add a little T.L.C. and bingo ... smiles all around!


I'm with you TJ. But, I guess it's all abourt what appeals to you. I like the modeling aspect most, so buying used/old, giving it T.L.C. and detailing to a prototype is what gives me satisfaction and fun. The other is the good friends you make.


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## MarkVIIIMarc (Oct 19, 2012)

I like the reference to the devalued dollar.

Also the internet makes EVERYTHING visible. So every night on ebay there are 100 locomotives I should not be buying.

Another thing to consider are our cell phone, cable and internet bills. All expenses we did not have in the 70's.

Expensive mortages are another issue. Some idiot banker pre approved me for 4x my income in 2001. The fella must have been on commission. If I had that mortgage my train world would not exist!

I guess lastly consider our place in the middle class. My truck driver father had enough money in 1969 to buy a series of new cars. I have a 1998 Lincoln.


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## mtoney (Oct 6, 2012)

If you take a stack of old Rail Model Craftsmans and look thru the ads, you had the cheaper stuff, Varney, Penn-Line, Lindberg, Globe/Athearn ect. Then you had the expensive stuff, ie brass imports, the RTR, highly detailed models of that time. Everything else, track, scenery, kits ect were fairly cheap and affordable. Now fast forward to modern day. RTR/highly detailed engines are expensive, brass is out of this world and even track has gotten expensive, priced a peco 3 way turnout lately? I have been told by hobby insiders that it would actualy be cheaper to produce the models totaly in the states now, BUT, they dont own the tooling. Either the Chinese companies or the goverment owns the tooling now and its trapped there. By the time you figure the added cost of living the Chinese workers are now demanding, cost of shipping state side, dealing with the logistics of working with companies based in the USA and production around the other side of the world. The prices keep going up. MSRP for a new Athearn RTR covered grain hopper is $24.95!! Thats $100 bucks for 4 cars if we had to pay MSRP. And its getting close to that, profit margins keep getting tighter, hobby shops do not get the discounts like they used to and have to charge more to keep the doors open. To do this hobby and buy nothing but brand new items takes a pretty healthy wallet. Most of us have other bills and family obligations that come before trains. I know I do. But then I find myself attracted to the older kits, older freight cars, older brass engines, which can be had for much less than the newest from China and will most likely hold thier value into the future. Then I add my enjoyment of taking that older brass model, installing a can motor, painting it, installing DCC/Sound if I wanted to ect. Now thats quality model railroad time. Taking that high doller MTH Berkshire out of the box and putting on the track isnt model railroading to me, its instant gratification, no thought or ablities, other than swipe the plastic credit card, is used. It used to be that a fine running, detailed model was the pride and joy of the line, something the person spent many enjoyable hours building, fine tuning, painting ect. Now it seems its "look how deep my pockets are" sorry, doesnt impress me. Ok, off the soap box, hands it to the next person. Mike


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## lears2005 (Feb 26, 2010)

That is why I do not buy anything ready to run. Unless it is really cheap I will buy blue box kits and stuff that needs tlc I have also decided to lay the rest of my track by handlaing it rather then pay the expenssive price of flex track. I am trying to save money as we will be having a new baby come spring. I get more injoment out of taking something that will not run and fixing it with my hands rather then buy something that you just take out of the box and it runs I dont see any fun in that. If you to see someone not spend a lot but get a lot of injoyment out of this hobby take a look at what shaygetz can do.


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## gustovski (Jul 7, 2011)

corporate greed 
nuff said
gus


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## Smokinapankake (Sep 8, 2011)

I'm even disappointed with how expensive blue box stuff gets to be on Ebay. I've been watching some of the Athearn Special Editions lately and find the prices those sellers are asking to be ridiculous. 
Honestly - 150 bux for powered and dummy set of blue box U30C's? Really? And some guys are asking 90 bux for a blue box SD40-2! Or how about $500 for one of those stupid John Deere train sets (which is nothing more than specially painted blue box stuff)?

Granted, this stuff may or may not sell (certainly not to me, anyway) but the fact that they're listing them that high shows a definite trend to the upper end of the pay scale. 

Blue box freight cars regularly list about 8 bux, with shipping charges ranging anywhere from 6 to 15 dollars. Really? For those prices I'll go down to my local hobby shop and scoop up their remaining BB stuff. 

To come out money ahead on Ebay, I will generally enter my max and then walk away. If I lose the auction then oh well. 

This is (or can be, anyway) definitely a rich man's hobby. But so are all other hobbies. Motorcycles? Yeah right. Bicycles? You could go broke buying a nice new mountain bike. Radio Control airplanes? Don't even get me started! 

Add the fact that Congress has been bought by big business to maintain (and reduce) their token tax rates, and the disappearing middle class doesn't stand a chance. 

Manufacturing in the US of something like trains will never return. I was saddened to see Athearn bought out by Horizon Hobby just so they could transfer all the tooling to China in an effort to reap some short term profits. What was once a proudly American company that provided a living wage to its workers has gone the way of the Dodo just so Horizon (or whoever, now) can charge exorbitant prices and pay the Chinese slaves they utilize to run the machines to make flatcars and whatnot and reap the "benefits" of offshoring. 

Ugh. Don't get me started. Sorry. Rant over.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Smokinapankake said:


> Manufacturing in the US of something like trains will never return.


You can thank the toxic business climate here for driving them out.



> I was saddened to see Athearn bought out by Horizon Hobby just so they could transfer all the tooling to China in an effort to reap some short term profits.


I don't blame private sector businessmen for escaping their productivity being punished by taxation just to grow the public sector.


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## trainguru (Jun 28, 2011)

*Soapbox Time: Here we go again!*

 - Heck, the old stuff it getting up there, but you know what? I still find deals in the untouched oldies, and let me make this clear:

Corporations are charging us limb for limb, for the most basic of things, but I refuse to be wooed by the latest polished apple. I'll go for quality, because someone did somthing right for these old timers to last all these years, and by the grace of God, I shall take the poor, the tired, the sick, the unwanted! And from those ashes (really I'm an oil burner man - :laugh, I shall give you a railroad as mighty as the will of God shall give me! Where Steam, vintage Diesel, heavyweight, wood, and dome coaches are the rule, not the exception, and even with GM-EMD diesels, the trains are still mostly powered by locomotives built _"Far, far from La Grange"_, and the sweet smells of "real" engines are the aroma of life itself. I say join my cause, and dust off the relics in the bone yards of your local model train shops, buy from the dealers what others dare only think to, be brave, be bold, and go forth blessed with that calm from the higher power, to bring into your fold, the elderly you find upon your travels, and make them useful within Your Pike's High Irons! -


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

trainguru said:


> - Heck, the old stuff it getting up there


The old stuff is getting up there. Most of my engines and rolling stock are
BB stuff. I like them and when I bought them they were cheap. I bought
most of them at train shows. I have bought some BB stuff at every train
show I have gone to untill last week. I got home from the train show and laid everything out to look at it again and I noticed something. Not one BB kit.
There really was not much BB stuff there. I think there is less and less of it around. Might be why the prices are going up on it. I got up to paying $6.00
for a car. No deal but what they are going for and more. Here is what I bought. RTR. I know about the fun and joy of doing BB kits. But figure this.
6 bucks for the car. Now add knuckle couplers, metal wheels (I want these on all my cars). Now where are you? Right at $10.00. I did not pay over $10.00 each for the RTR cars I bought at the show. If the price is the same I will open the box and set it on the track and go. The cars I bought were Atlas Trainman and Walthers . Same price. I won't pay $25.00 for a car. I will pay 10 ready to go. It works the same with the BB engines, you pay $30 for the engine and $100 for a nice Tsunami sound decoder. Thats 130. I bought a nice sound BLI sd40-2 for 125 from Trainworld. RTR is taking over the world, but I see why. Only cause the old stuff is going too high.


I guess I have fallen into the RTR zone. I forgot about the Bachmann silver series I have been buying from "favorite spot" on ebay. They run me 5 to 9 bucks each. Less than a BB ready to go. And those silver series cars are some of my best rolling cars. A string of 15 of them take nothing to get rolling. They got the knuckle couplers and metal wheels on them. You can't always get atlas and walthers RTR for 10, but I don't buy unless I do. At the train shows they have them marked at $12 to $16. I won't do it with 1 or 2 cars but I will pick out 5 or 6 cars and offer 10 bucks a piece. Some won't do it but most will. They would rather have the 50 or 60 bucks than to lug the stuff home and then to the next show.

Yes, I am a tight buyer.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Most of my stuff starts here...










...or here....


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

shaygetz said:


> ...or here....


You're a braver man than I!


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> Most of my stuff starts here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most of my stuff ends up here... :laugh:


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## Smokinapankake (Sep 8, 2011)

choo choo said:


> You can thank the toxic business climate here for driving them out.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't blame private sector businessmen for escaping their productivity being punished by taxation just to grow the public sector.



I don't blame them either. I blame Congress.


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## MarkVIIIMarc (Oct 19, 2012)

Hey, George W did not create this toxic business climate alone. Some of it is the natural progression of our "competition" rebuilding from WWII or going through their own industrial revolution.

Also don't blame the current President for not fixing your/our economic problems. The business I work for is in a position to make money of folks with very little so we are doing well.

A lack of babysitting on lenders and money changers may help us create imaginary wealth to allow a service economy to compete with China for a few decades but hey, banks just know how to go bankrupt.


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## briangcc (Oct 11, 2012)

*Limited runs - manufacturers will only make so many of a particular engine / paint scheme. Since there's less of them, the price goes up with the increased demand.

*DCC - those little decoders aren't free. All the bells and whistles that go with them - sound/lighting/etc - also cost $$$.

*Convenience - you're paying for someone else's labor to assemble these models.

*Couplers - remember those old NMRA standard couplers that shipped with everything you bought? Now you get Kadee compatible couplers. Depending on the what the locomotive manufacturer used, these may or may not be better than the NMRA stuff BUT its quicker to get your new purchase integrated into your fleet this way.

*Can motors and flywheels - gone are the open frame motors of old. They perform better than what they replaced but again, they cost more to manufacture so the cost is passed along to you.


Personally, I don't own any of the modern stuff (such as Athearn Genesis). Mines all blue or yellow box Athearn, Hobbytown, Varney (with Athearn power underneath), RailPower (with Athearn power underneath), etc. I enjoy custom painting/detailing engines but that's getting harder and harder to do these days. I remember SD-40's from Athearn costing $20 brand new in Hobby Shops. Try that these days! You're lucky to find them used for that price.

But alot of it goes towards this upcoming generation of modelers who want instant gratification instead of putting some time & effort into something. It breaks, they throw it away and buy another instead of repairing it. Sad state of affairs I say as they're missing out on a lot!!!


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

This is a four-year-old "training" for the Olympics in China...










...every time I want one of those pretty trinkets from BLI, MTH and Bachmann, I pull up this picture to remind me why I don't buy new. My used money stays here...


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## MarkVIIIMarc (Oct 19, 2012)

shaygetz said:


> This is a four-year-old "training" for the Olympics in China...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear you! Man, if you don't want solid wood I can even furnish your home in mostly domestic furniture and mattresses competitively. Its these darn small well packaged things which drain our economy dollar by dollar. My shoes, shirt, jeans, cell I'm posting from now, all $$$$$$$'s leaving our economy being redistributed elsewhere.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

choo choo said:


> Most of my stuff ends up here... :laugh:



Lol can't get much done in a caboose that small. Even I, who doesn't have clusterphobic problems could start having problems. Damn thing is too small!


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## Lee_R (May 30, 2012)

Rolling outhouse?


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

If that one is too small, I also have a "big" one... 










This is how I get around the high train prices... by getting old cheap stuff and having fun making it into something whimsical.


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## gustovski (Jul 7, 2011)

choo choo said:


> If that one is too small, I also have a "big" one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ah i miss seeing those little cars you make any recent ones or are you loving your ride on train

hmm i hope to buy a small (for australia:laugh::laugh: )farm one day and i too might go big time and it will probably be used as a cargo train for the farm.


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