# Noob N scale Railway Plan questions



## RonK9977 (Oct 4, 2019)

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Hello: Welcome to my N Scale plans

The above picture is a layout that I designed not to scale but used the program to rough it up as it is better than I can draw it myself. It is 16'x4'. I plan to make it DCC with a ESU ECoS 50200 command station and PC control. The YARD part up top could just as well be a ladder setup but is actually just a staging area for my different trains to sit when not called upon. The whole YARD/ staging area there is going to be inside a big mountain along the back which will open from the backside so I can get in if I have to. The layout is designed so that 4 trains can run at once with no problem as there are 4 separate loops. As well as a few sidings (not in the mountain ones) to stop at stations etc There are 2 main lines and 2 interior loops which the Purple one is elevated

I understand basic electronics and making a bus and drop feeders and wish to operate my switches with solenoids that are changed by my command station and PC . I also want to have detection so that I will know where the trains are especially inside the mountain/YARD staging area as they will be out of sight there.

Here are some of the things I wonder about/questions I have

REVERSING: I understand (theoretically) how a auto reverse loop works as you are coming back on the same track you came up only opposite direction so the polarity needs changed BUT in my plan above you see the Orange inside loop has a double X in the middle and if you cross over then the train is now going in the opposite direction around the loop and in fact opposite to the whole layout as the train came in off the main going one way but now is coming out of the reverse loop and then running the opposite way on the MAINs. I hope I have explained this right. I am hoping I can run the trains both ways on all tracks especially the MAINs but don't understand how it all works..maybe I can't do this?

WIRING: I am not sure where the blocks should all be and how you wire the track around the switches and X double cross overs. I know for sure I'd like detection in the staging area under the mountain as I won't be able to see where the trains are there..

TRACK: I am thinking of using flex track and am not sure what size switches are needed and where. I am going to use Code 55 and am thinking PECO but am not sure, I hear the Atlas switches are not so good etc.

Well that is enough questions to start with.
Thanks for all replies in advance! 

Ron


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm not a big electronics guy, so I'll let someone else handle the hard questions on block detection and PC control.

The reversing loops part isn't hard, though, you just have to wire several reversing sections and isolate them with a separate controller for each section. You might be able to get away with just two -- one o on the right and one on the left, but more will allow you to operate more trains on that track simultaneously. Each section should start at one (or each) leg of the double crossover and be longer than your longest planned train.

As far as your track question, you say "switches". It's a model railroading convention to use the term "turnouts" for the track variety to distinguish from the electrical kind. I assume that's what you mean here. The size of the turnouts depends on the equipment you intend to run. Longer locks and cars generally want bigger turnouts. For 6 axle diesel, steamers with more than 8 drivers, and cars longer than 50 scale feet, you'll want at least a #6; bigger if it will fit, As you observe, not all turnouts are created equal. Not all Atlas ones are bad either. You want to steer away from cheap ones with short point rails and riveted connections. Atlas Custom Line, Peco, MicroEngineering, Walthers (which may have some availability problems for the next month or so) are all good brands. I recommend you use separately installed, under the table machines. The twin solenoid design is too easy to burn up by applying power for too long.


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## RonK9977 (Oct 4, 2019)

CTValleyRR said:


> I'm not a big electronics guy, so I'll let someone else handle the hard questions on block detection and PC control.
> 
> The reversing loops part isn't hard, though, you just have to wire several reversing sections and isolate them with a separate controller for each section. You might be able to get away with just two -- one o on the right and one on the left, but more will allow you to operate more trains on that track simultaneously. Each section should start at one (or each) leg of the double crossover and be longer than your longest planned train.
> 
> As far as your track question, you say "switches". It's a model railroading convention to use the term "turnouts" for the track variety to distinguish from the electrical kind. I assume that's what you mean here. The size of the turnouts depends on the equipment you intend to run. Longer locks and cars generally want bigger turnouts. For 6 axle diesel, steamers with more than 8 drivers, and cars longer than 50 scale feet, you'll want at least a #6; bigger if it will fit, As you observe, not all turnouts are created equal. Not all Atlas ones are bad either. You want to steer away from cheap ones with short point rails and riveted connections. Atlas Custom Line, Peco, MicroEngineering, Walthers (which may have some availability problems for the next month or so) are all good brands. I recommend you use separately installed, under the table machines. The twin solenoid design is too easy to burn up by applying power for too long.


Thanks for your reply! Learning as I go and YES maybe there is hope for my layout plan in all directions  I was thinking as well if I had speed matched locos theoretically if I sent one out say on the main line and at 1/2 loop sent out another then they'd not meet because they would move equal...


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

RonK9977 said:


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I’m not sure why you would need to wire in blocks if it’s DCC.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Ah, never mind. I’m thinking of the old DC block control and you will be working with block detection. 
You are in the 21st century and I’m in the mid 20th. Lol. 
We do have some good folks on here that can help you with that.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Turnout control*



RonK9977 said:


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Ron;

You mentioned "solenoids that are charged by my command station." Solenoids are simple wire coils with a movable steel slug in their center. They don't "charge up", because they are incapable of doing so. There is a device called a "Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU) which does indeed charge up. Its accumulated charge is then used to operate a twin-coil (solenoid type) switch machine like those used by Atlas and Peco. Perhaps that's what you were thinking of? If so, it's a good thought. A CDU can prevent the very kind of coil burnout that CTValley warned you about. 

I don't know what type, or brand, of DCC command station you plan to use, but I have not heard of one that can charge up anything, including the capacitor that makes a CDU capable of operating turnouts. A CDU is charged by a separate power supply, which is not part of the DCC system. Often an old DC power pack, or a little black "wall wart"plug-in power supply, like those used to charge cell phones.

DCC systems, including their command stations, are usually used only to run trains.
However, it is possible to use a DCC system to control turnouts, and possibly some accessories. To do this a device called a "Stationary Decoder" is necessary. The DCC command station sends a digital signal out to the stationary decoder, just as it sends digital signals to the DCC decoders inside locomotives. The stationary decoder then operates the turnout or accessory it's connected to. 
One stationary decoder, or one channel of a multi-channel stationary decoder, would be needed for each turnout, or other device, that you want the DCC system to control. This gets expensive, and requires a lot of button pushing on the DCC controller. For these reasons most modelers use DCC for train control only, and a separate control panel, and power supply, to control all turnouts, and everything else electrical, on their layouts.

As for code 55 flex track and turnouts, I suggest you look closely at Micro Engineering's. Their track & turnouts look very realistic, and the turnouts are reliable. They don't make prefab double crossovers or even crossings though. So if you decide to stick with your present complex track plan, those items will need to be a different brand. Peco is excellent, and they have more of a selection of complex track pieces. Atlas code 55 track and turnouts are OK, but not in the same quality league as Micro Engineering or Peco. 

This will be your railroad, so, in the end, your opinion will be the only one that matters. To me, and this is only my opinion, your track plan looks much too complicated, with too much track filling up nearly all the available space, and too many turnouts and crossings. 
Some modelers like complex trackwork with trains weaving in and out through a maze of turnouts and crossings. If that is what you want, that's OK. Again, it's your railroad.
However turnouts, crossings, double crossovers, etc. all cost plenty of money, and all require wiring, adjustment, and occasional maintenance. The more of these things any model railroad has, the more expensive, and difficult, it will be to build, and the more potential train-running fun time will instead have be used to clean, adjust, and maintain all that complex trackwork.

Real railroad companies avoid complex, and unnecessary, track for the same reasons. High initial cost, and higher ongoing maintenance costs. For this reason most of any real railroad is quite simple, almost spartan in its "track plan." So a layout with lots of track, turnouts, crossings, etc. won't look, or operate much like a real railroad. That matters a lot to some modelers, and does not matter a bit to others.
Like everything else involved in planning a model railroad, this is a matter of personal choice. Each person makes their own decision as to what they want, and that's how it should be. 

The files below are some I wrote for new modelers. Look through them if you wish. They contain a lot of information on all the things I've mentioned in this response, and many other useful things as well. 

Good Luck, Have Fun;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment WHERE DO I START rev 4.pdf


View attachment All AboutTurnouts rev 4.pdf


View attachment 1 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 2 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 3 & 4 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 5 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 6 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment MODEL RAILROADING ON A BUDGET.pdf


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## RonK9977 (Oct 4, 2019)

*Thanks for all replys!*

Thanks for all the responses!
Yes I meant those little peco motors with the pin that moves back and forth...you put under the layout...not a full blown solinoid...I described that wrong...sorry about that....

Thanks for the DCC info...YES I forgot you can buy a bank of decoders that you hook one switch to each port THEN your Comand Center will fire them when you pick a route or manually change on it's screen. (Is this right>?) I am looking at the ESU Ecos command center.ESU decoder banks and ESU detection... It has route control and shuttling, programs the locos and decoders etc etc.... 

Because my layout is 16feet long then you'd think I'd be able to have more than one train on a particualr loop too as they would be far appart..There must be a way to automate this too i bet lol.

I still don't understand if my trains will be able to run both directions on all tracks / loops...I understand the reverser module THEORY but once the train is reversed in the orange loop there where I can turn around a train THEN when it comes back out on the main lines it is backwards to the whole layout as compaired to when it entered the orange loop to start with?

Hope somebody can understand what I mean.

I think before I'd start wiring the layout I would have to ask a kind soul to tell me how to wire it all up especially around the frogs/turnouts and Double Xes etc...I can follow a plan with that mapped out BETTER than me shorting it all out 50 times trying to know how it should be when I don't etc...

Yes again model railroading is different to all people but certainly better than WORK! LOL... What I eventually want to do is run 4 or 5 trains from a PC that come and go from inside the mountain out of sight staging area up top of layout area all automatically eventually although still some personal train controlling too...My locos will be 3 Deisels, One Steam (because I like the sound LOL) and a little Switcher of some kind

Well I am learning as I go...I will have to buy this stuff a little at a time i think though lol..it's expensive but most hobbies are I guess. Just learning now 

This is the command center I want to get. I know a train shop close that stocks them etc... http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/ecos-50200-dcc-system/what-ecos-can-do/


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Route control & switch machines*



RonK9977 said:


> Thanks for all the responses!
> Yes I meant those little peco motors with the pin that moves back and forth...you put under the layout...not a full blown solinoid...I described that wrong...sorry about that....
> 
> Thanks for the DCC info...YES I forgot you can buy a bank of decoders that you hook one switch to each port THEN your Comand Center will fire them when you pick a route or manually change on it's screen. (Is this right>?) I am looking at the ESU Ecos command center.ESU decoder banks and ESU detection... It has route control and shuttling, programs the locos and decoders etc etc....
> ...



Ron;

Your ESU command station looks like it can do a lot of things! Since I spent 40 years repairing over-complicated machines, I prefer simple. Apparently you prefer complicated. Oh well, that's your choice. There are several ways to do route control. Some, like the one in your ESU command station, are computer logic based. Some form of sequencer sends signals out to each turnout's stationary decoder in a rapid sequence. This aligns all the turnouts needed to access a particular yard track for example. In terms of basic electricity, there are much simpler ways to do the same thing, (I use one that consists of one transformer, a few diodes, and two capacitors) but again that's your choice, and if you're going to use a command station with that feature built-in, I guess it only makes sense to use it. 

Although Peco calls their snap-on switch machines "motors" they are actually solenoids. So you were not wrong in calling them that. I take it you plan to use Peco turnouts then. That is a very wise choice.

How to wire your frogs, turnouts, and double crossovers, varies considerably with what type of turnouts you are going to use. 
One of the pdf files I sent you, titled "All about turnouts" explains a lot about the various types of turnouts. As an example, Peco makes three electrical types. A plastic frog turnout called "Insulfrog." A metal frog turnout called "Electrofrog" and the newest type called "Unifrog." Obviously, you can't power the plastic frog, and powering the frog is optional on the other two. Some turnouts, including Peco, are "current routing" You can use that feature, or wire around it. Again, reading the file will explain these options, and why you may want to use each one, or not.
A double crossover consists of four turnouts and one crossing. The four turnouts would each be wired the same as any other turnout, and the crossing typically does not need any wiring. That's a bit of a simplification, but true of most commercial double crossovers. They usually come with the necessary insulated gaps, & jumpers, built-in. I suggest you look for the book "Wiring your model railroad" by Larry Puckett, at https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/products/books I think you will find the text and diagrams in it helpful.

As for running two trains on the same loop. you can do that easily with DCC. The problem would be to keep them from colliding!  I would not rely on speed matching alone to do this. No matter how closely you match the speeds, sooner or later one train is going to run into the rear of the other, unless human operators are controlling the trains. Since you seem to want to automate everything, you might copy prototype automatic block signaling practice. It has worked nicely for them for about a century.  
To do this on a model, you will need insulated blocks of track. Each block will need one of your ESU detector circuits to both operate the signals, and turn off power to a short "stopping section" of track, just beyond each signal. Whether this is worth the effort and expense, is another choice for you to make.

I can't answer your "Will the train go both ways through all the track" question, just by looking at your complicated little diagram.
Here though, is a way you should be able to find out. You will need to make a bigger copy of your track plan. One that is big enough to show the two rails on all the tracks.
Then trace each rail in a different color, say red, and blue, all the way around the layout. Wherever a red rail and a blue rail meet, you have a dead short circuit from a reverse loop. In the process of locating your reverse loops, you should be able to map out the route a train would need to follow in order to traverse every bit of track on your layout. 

Speaking from experience, I do feel strongly that, as a "Noob" or beginner, you have come up with way too complex a track plan. However that's another choice for you to make.

Good luck, I suspect you'll need it;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ronk

There really is no complex wiring for the main
lines of your layout.

You have what we generally call a continuous running
layout, using DCC, you certainly can have several
trains running on it at the same time yet individually
controlled by your DCC controller.

You would want to have track drops every 6 feet or so of
mainline connected to an under table bus which is
fed by the DCC controller. Pecos are very reliable
turnouts but some models are 'power routing'. This 
requires that you add track drops from their frog rails.
If you select Electro frog models you'll need insulated
joiners in both frog rails. 

The double crossover in the 'orange' inner loop actually
creates two reverse loops. The entire 'orange' loop
would necessarily be isolated from the rest of the layout
using insulated joiners. The two loop 'ends' of the 'orange'
track must be isolated from all four ends of the double crossover. These are your reverse loop isolated
sections. Each would be powered thru an automatic reverse loop
controller. You would allow a few feet of track on
each end of the double crossover. The Double crossover
and it's connected track would be powered by the
main bus from the DCC controller.

A quick reverse loop controller 'how it works':
When the front wheels of the loco span the insulated
joiners there is a 'short circuit'. The controller reacts
quickly and matches the phase eliminating the short.
The loco continues without so much as a blink. Then
when those front wheels span the exit insulated joiners
another 'short' occurs which again triggers the phase
reverse. The length of the isolated reverse loop must
be long enuf that the entire lighted passenger train must
be within it.

I am big on switching. It can be very enjoyable to
watch your trains navigate the scenery as your have
outlined, but after a while...maybe something else...
switching. If you have a number of sidings as well
as a yard or two, you can set up schedules that can
be as challenging as a game of chess or checkers.
You might consider where you could add to your
layout.

Don


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## RonK9977 (Oct 4, 2019)

Wow thanks again for all the answers and info everybody!
Ron


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