# Lionel 248 prewar



## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

I know a million questions! I am a sucker for these old locos and this is a great canidate for a resto job. The wheels are shot, saw some on Mikes Trains for 24.00/set any better deals? When I do get the wheels I will need to pry off the gears from the old ones, any easy way to do that? I also need to rewire, any hints on how to pry off the pick-up? I also need a winged journel, a ladder, and the rectifer. I would live to do a one stop shop but I have no idea the part numbers and some suppliers only go by part numbers no pictures. I did no pay much at all and love doing this type of work. I am of the school of keeping these old Lionel's around, I would love to buy mint but then I would have to live in an old shoe!


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

Im sorry I actually need the panograph and they are not winged journels they are leaf springs!!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

You'll have to wait for the experts, that one's above my pay grade! Lots of guys here use Jeff at the train tender. Like I said on the other thread take inventory then order all at once. You can also call Jeffif you do not see what you need on his site. He is iincredibly helpful.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yes wait till The Tin man (aka TJ) and T man get here.

They will steer you in the right direction.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ditto to Jeff for parts.

You say that you need to pry the gears off of the wheels? I'm not sure I understand that. While I haven't fiddled with prewar elec style locos, all of the other prewar locos I've restored have had the drive wheel gears integral (cast) with the drive wheels themselves.

Some parts info/specs:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=765

I'm not sure if this is the proper motor or not ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=812

Unless the pickup plate is damaged, I would urge you to resolder / replace the pickup wire with the plate in place. You should have plenty of access for a soldering iron tip once the wheels / axles are removed.

Condsider these rattle-can colors for repaint:

o Krylon Gloss Banner Red, #52108
o Krylon Gloss Sweet Cream, #53540

Regards,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man's excellent 252 redo thread might be of help here ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=15746

He talks a bit about gears in his thread.

TJ


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

Yea these wheels are 3 parts, there is a cap which is tin and the hub in red, then there is some sort of pressed molded iron mag zinc powder that is the flange and on the drives there is a brass gear that is bonded to the flange material. I read somewhere that over time the flanged part starts to deteriorate over time, not sure if it is climate related or bad production, some wheels are unaffected while others are like mine, no worries though they do have replacements. I am going to apply some heat to see if that can coax the brass gear off.
Thanks for the link it will be helpful
As for the paint gloss or satin they do not make or I cannot find Krylon in Simi Gloss. For black steam engines the Krylon semi flat is the ticket. I can only find it in auto parts store the rest of the colors are widely available.
Thanks
John


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think that's called zinc pest, ( See I learn stuff here). You can look it up. Basically it's a flaw in the way the zinc was composed, more of one metal or another, ( if I remember correctly). Some stuff holds up some doesn't. I belive the process was perfected for postwar stuff, no problems there!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My thread should have all the juice you need. 

24 is a good price for new wheels. They will need to be pressed in and the holes will need to be enlarge a tad. 

Easy off for the shell and you are on your way. How are the roller pickups?


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks for the information on your thread, the roller pick-ups are good, it needed to be rewired. I found that the wire itself was good, just the insulating was bad so what I did was gently strip the wire (mostly just crumbled off) and cut a piece of new wire the same lenght and pulled the wire out then slipped the new insulation over the original wires. I did not catch the part where you attached a new wire to the bottom side of the pick-up, over time should the original soder fail I will use your method, seeing I see no easy way of removing the pick-up plate. This is my first tin engine and it won't be my last, they are way cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That roller plate was replaced so the wire was soldered with it off. A pencil iron works sometime when it is in place. I kept the old nameplate and used new rivets to attach it to the new one.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

The "sleeve the pickup wire with new insulation" trick is a good one ... used here by quite a few members to rescue some old locos back to life!


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

Have a problem with the motor on this loco, I just tried to run the motor with new brushes and I get a bright pin of white light and a wiff of smoke, looks as if it comming from inside the armature. The reason for the new brushes was when I got the engine one of the orginal brushes was fried, would a short in the armature do this or do I have a short on the brush plate. I looked and nothing was grounding to the body from the brush plate. I spun the armature and tried it again and the motor spun humed and turned 1/8 revolution before it smoked again. I am testing by putting a lead to the pick up and one to the body, any suggestions!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Pictures of it for the technical guys. They( and even me) might pick up on something you don't see. Myself I would rewire the whole thing, the wires are old and might fail even after you get it running. At least you would get some solder time in! Do you have a volt meter? Servoguy, and tj ( among others) walked me through some basics. It sounds like a short, you will find it!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I always look at the reversing drum in the e unit first. To make sure it did not break. Look for cracks in the wires.


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

there is no e unit this is a forward only engine, I bypassed the pick-up and tapped directly to the primary brush with the same results, so I know the wiring from the pick-up isn not the problem. there are only 2 other wires, one for the light and the field (I think it's called the field). The short I am sure is in the armature windings. It was the primary brush that was fried when I got it. It was wired pick-up to primary brush, field to secondary brush and pick-up to light. What else could it be???


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Take the brush plate off and check the armature. The resistance from one commutator segment to any other segment should be the same, and the resistance from any segment to the core (the iron plates that the wire is wound around) should show an open circuit.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

ironman21 said:


> It was wired pick-up to primary brush, field to secondary brush and pick-up to light. What else could it be???


If that's so, then make sure that the field coil is OK (check resistance between the 2nd brush can and the motor frame) ... the field coil (on opposite end of the brush) should be grounded to the motor frame and loco drive wheels. (Check the resistance with the brush plate removed, no brushes touching armature, etc.)

TJ


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

OK here is what I have, there is resistance between 2 segments but one segment shows no resistance (open circut). I attached power to the motor and manualy spun the armature and the armature started to spin on it own, I was able to increase volts to make it spin faster but (there is always a but) the field brush had an intermitent spark. Would that be caused when the brush passes over the segment that has no resistance? If i spin the armature so that the brushes rest on the segments that have resistance the motor will start to turn until it hits the bad segment then it stops but by spinning the armature the momentum keeps it running by passing over the good segments, does that make sense or am I out to lunch.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Look carefully at the 3 grooves between the armature face segments. Make sure they are crud-free ... should be a hair lower than the copper surface of the segments. Clean with GooGone, toothbrush, eraser, toothpicks, etc.

Can the armature be easily removed on that motor (or is it captive via a pinion gear)?

If you can remove it, look carefully for the small wires that go from the armature windings (3 or them) to the copper segments. Make sure none of the wires are broken.

TJ


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

In addition when I said the motor ran it did not run very well. It did not spin up like expected, seemed like it was missing a beat!


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

captive via pinion gear, I am going to give the segments a good cleaning as suggested then pull the pinion if nothing changes.


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

Also when I mentioned that the field brush sparks its more like an arc.


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

It is running a bit better both brushes arc a bit but I believe the is normal? I just ordered a new brush plate, I think some of the cause is there with the brush holders I cleaned them but I have to apply slight pressure to the field brush to keep it running. I still have to manually spin the arm to get it started. With your help Im closing in on the problem.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Some amount of sparks at the brushes is normal.

The brushes are little metal cylinders, usually with a flat (circular) face that contacts the armature face. Often, I will file a small bevel around the circular perimeter of the brush end, to "break" or smooth how the brush rides across the gaps between copper segments. Give this a shot, perhaps ... it might reduce the sparks a bit.

You can put a small drop of 5W-20 or 5W-30 oil on the armature face, too ... this will help.

TJ


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## ironman21 (Mar 5, 2013)

Update...got the new brush plate and bushes installed them on the motor. Now the engine runs but I still have to give it a push to get it started, in addition, it does not run like I would expect, I can open it up full throttel (ZW) runs decent but there is no danger of running it off the tracks I back it down to 14 volts and it keeps pace but around 12 volts its starts to die out a bit. The engine seems to chatter when running, the wheels spin freely no binding detected it just seems that something is holding it back, could it be a weak field coil or am I expecting too much out of this motor. the fact that I have to push start it leads me to believe that there is something I am missing.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Did you check the armature?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Those wheels do have a grumble sound. Worse case the armature is hitting the field. With a new plate only the other end can give you a bad alignment. So how are those gears on the back side? 

You may just be underpowered too. Old motors eat it up. Old track doesn't help either. The axle bearings may be tarnished from non use so more running may be needed to see some improvement. The shell does hollow out the sound too to a Marx tune,. Keep these ideas in mind.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so you still have lots of stuff to check! But you did say there is a problem with one armature segment? Is that fixed?


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