# two train operation on one track



## dterhu

Doug here.
Have set up a S gauge American Flyer layout for grandkids. Cannot figure out how to get two trains operating at the same time. When I was a kid I only had the two trains crossing a cross track. But now I have switches to move trains from one section of the layout to the other. I don't know where to put the power track clips coming from the transformer. Any help out there?


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## mopac

Hello and welcome to the train forum. I am less than 2 years into AF trains and I will
let someone else, with more knowledge, answer your question. Untill then, try moving
that switch that looks like a bell and see what difference it does. It does make a difference which end of turnout (switch) power is attached. And that bell like switch makes a difference. Play with bell and placing power.


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## cramden

dterhu said:


> Doug here.
> Have set up a S gauge American Flyer layout for grandkids. Cannot figure out how to get two trains operating at the same time. When I was a kid I only had the two trains crossing a cross track. But now I have switches to move trains from one section of the layout to the other. I don't know where to put the power track clips coming from the transformer. Any help out there?


Welcome to the forum Doug. The power clips must be placed between the switches as the pic. shows. 






Remember to also move the brass button to the two train position so only the track that the switch is set for gets power. Now you can park 1 train on the diverging track and run another on the thru track. If the power clips are placed on the other side of the switch it defeats the 2 train feature of the switches. They are power routing switches with the brass button set for 2 train operation and non-power routing if the button is set for regular operation. Hope this helps.


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## dterhu

*2 train simultaneously*

OK. Shutting off the power to the siding using 2 train operation makes total sense. Thank you. However, how can I run two trains simultaneously. I did it when I was a kid where the two layouts only crossed at a cross track. But can I have a switch moving the trains from one layout to the other? I am not interested in running them both on the same layout at the same time. But I want to have to option of running them both and having them both crossing the cross track. I have tried one track clip on each layout (one using trestles in a loop, crossing the cross track and one staying flat on the table also crossing the cross track. I put one track clip on the tracks that connect the trestle loop to the table loop. It does not work. I have all my switches set for two train operation. I have enough switches to change the route of the table train to time out crossing the cross track and avoiding the train on the trestle loop. That would be the real fun part! Is this possible if I have the track clips in the right location? Thanks.


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## AmFlyer

Yes, you can run 2 trains independently with one on each loop of track that cross only at a Gilbert 90deg crossing. And yes the 2 loops can be connected using Gilbert turnouts. It is possible that fiber pins will be needed where the turnouts join together. The diagram above shows where to place the the power clips. Sometimes placing the power clips on the frog side of a turnout is unavoidable, this will then require some additional fiber pins.
One caution about the 725 crossing. Some 1946 production had the 2 adjacent legs connected together rather than the opposing legs. These will not work on your layout. If your 725 has blackened rail webs look at the underside to see how the metal straps joining the rails are arranged.


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## AmFlyer

If you do not have a Gilbert instruction manual they are online for free download and viewing at americanflyerexpress.com. You may find it helpful to have one.
Regarding fiber pins and interconnected loops. If you use a dual control transformer such as a 12B or 30B fiber pins are needed because the base posts are interconnected inside the transformer. If you power the loops with two separate transformers like a 4B or 15B and keep the base post wiring separate to all track and accessories then fiber pins are usually not needed.
I have built more than 30 Gilbert layouts with complex track plans over the years and with careful placement of the 690 track clips have never needed fiber pins to have independent 2 train operation. I only used fiber pins to create separately powered blocks for semaphores and such.


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## DonR

Doug

The Forum guys would be of more exacting
help if we knew the layout of your track.

There would be different connections depending
on how you have your tracks put together.

Can you draw it out, using some computer program,
or short of that, draw it on plain paper, scan it,
or take
a photo of that and attach it to your post.

Don


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## cramden

If you could post a track plan it might be helpful as to the placement of the power clips. I think you need 5 posts before you can but you can just comment on other topics and get you to 5 easily. Even a rough drawing would be helpful.


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## dterhu

I have a pdf drawing of my layout. How do I get it into a reply to post it. I've tried to copy and paste and the paste part doesn't put it into the reply box.


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## Mikeh49

You can attache the pdf file (size limit 15 MB) to your post using the paperclip icon on the toolbar. Use the Go Advanced button to show the expanded toolbars that allow attachments and lots of other stuff.


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## mopac

Well, like cramden said, we think you need 5 posts before you could post something like your track plan. Do a couple more posts and then try the copy and paste thing.


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## dterhu

Hi Tom,
I have attached a PDF of the layout. Again, looking for two train operation with layouts meeting at the cross track. My cross track is connected with opposing legs, not adjacent.
I have a dual control 18B transformer so to begin with I don't know what a fiber pin is & if I need them I need to know where they would need to go.
Some questions, what is the frog side of a turnout? 
Is a turnout the section connecting the two layouts?
Thanks.
Doug


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## DonR

Since you have the dual control transformer you need
only connect it properly and also establish electrical isolation of the two loops.

But first, definitions: 

Fiber pins. These replace the metal pins that connect your
track sections at the point where the two ovals connect.
Being fiber they do not conduct electricity.

Turnout Frog. This is the section of the turnout where the
divert and straight rails come together.

For two train operation of your layout you would connect
Transformer track output A to the smaller inner oval and
the track output B to the larger outer oval. 

You would need to replace the metal pins with the fiber
pins between the turnout straight rails and the track sections
that connect to the other oval. You would also need to
replace the metal pins with fiber in the divert rails of the
lower right turnout.

The fiber pins electrically isolate the two ovals so you
can independently control each train.

It is important that you use color coded wires to ensure
that both ovals have the same phase on the outer rail.
Wrongly connected, you would have short circuits when the
trains move from one oval to the other.

Don


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## AmFlyer

On a turnout the side with the straight and diverging legs is referred to as the frog side and the single entry leg side is the point side.
Try operating the layout with just 2 690 track clips and all the turnouts set to 2 train operation. It should allow you to operate 2 trains independently on each loop. When the turnouts are thrown to allow trains to move between loops both handles will operate both tracks so keep the handles at about the same voltage setting when the turnouts are thrown that way.
Place one of the 690's on the outer track in the upper left hand corner above the E turnout to the two sidings. Place the second one in the far lower right hand corner of the layout just below the E turnout for the loop interchange track. Make sure the base post and 7-15V posts are connected consistently.
If you do not care for the sharing of control then add fiber pins. One set in the diagonal connecting track just below the "N" in "open." Add the second pair in the interchange track between the two "E" turnouts on the upper RH corner of the layout.
Nice track plan. I would try to eliminate the double reverse curve in the outer main line. One way is to use a LH turnout, move it one track to the left so the route to the interchange track and siding use the curved leg of the turnout.


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## Matt_GNo27

AmFlyer said:


> Nice track plan. I would try to eliminate the double reverse curve in the outer main line. One way is to use a LH turnout, move it one track to the left so the route to the interchange track and siding use the curved leg of the turnout.


I agree, this looks like a nice layout. 

You have two points where the mainline runs through switches "turned out," one is the reverse curve in the lower-left corner that AmFlyer mentions above, and the other is the transfer between the two loops in the upper right corner. On my Dad's AF layout we found that it is preferable to position all the switches, so that the primary running is straight through a switch, not turned out. We found that over a number of laps, the weight of the locomotives pushed the turned-out frog slightly out of alignment, towards the straight-through position.


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## mopac

Makes sense Matt. I would not make diverging route the main route.


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## AmFlyer

I did not comment on the upper right turnout placement for two reasons. First, I have personally not had a problem using the divergent turnout leg of Gilbert switches for the mainline route. Second, the fix would likely introduce another pair of "S" curves which I feel are the worse of the two choices. I leave it up to the layout builder to test it and see what he likes.
On my permanent S gauge layout which uses hand laid numbered turnouts with open frogs all mainline routes use the straight leg of the turnouts.


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## cramden

Nice track plan. You'll have to find out if the reverse curves will give you problems. As far as derailing because of switch movement especially from heavier engines, I generally touch the switch machine levers periodically to make sure they are still tight against the rail to avoid any disasters. You could also use a 697 pressure trip wired to the switch to keep it tight. 1 wire from the 15 volt post to the trip and the other post on the trip has a wire going to the red switch terminal that would energize the switch solenoid when the train approaches. I don't know how this might affect the solenoids life on the switch.


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## flyernut

You can always adjust the spring to increase the tension on the frog.


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## Matt_GNo27

AmFlyer said:


> Second, the fix would likely introduce another pair of "S" curves which I feel are the worse of the two choices.


Assuming that he can squeeze it in before the climb begins, my suggestion would be to move that inner-outer loop transfer to the right end of the parallel straights along the top of the drawing, so that you're diverging from straight to straight.



AmFlyer said:


> I leave it up to the layout builder to test it and see what he likes.


Where's the fun in that?


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## Matt_GNo27

flyernut said:


> You can always adjust the spring to increase the tension on the frog.


Is that done by adjusting the "point adjusting tab" shown here?


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## flyernut

Matt_GNo27 said:


> Is that done by adjusting the "point adjusting tab" shown here?


You're close. The spring is located underneath that small plate with the 2 screws holding it in place..I've changed out that spring on different occasions, adding a stiffer one, or replacing with a weaker one. That tab adjusts the frog against the rail.


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## dterhu

Hi flyernut,

How do you adjust the spring to increase the tension on the frog?
Thanks.
Doug


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## flyernut

dterhu said:


> Hi flyernut,
> 
> How do you adjust the spring to increase the tension on the frog?
> Thanks.
> Doug


Change the spring.. I live in a very agricultural area, and the hardware stores around here have everything imaginable, from .22 ammo to septic tanks,lol.. They have a wonderful selection of any type of spring you can imagine. Be sure the spring is not so aggressive that the solenoid will not operate the frog linkage.


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## AmFlyer

For just one turnout you can also try stretching the spring. Done carefully this will increase the spring pressure. I have found very few Gilbert turnouts on which an engine could move the points. Out of 20 turnouts I used for my seasonal layouts only one ever developed this problem. I also developed a habit like was mentioned above, periodically using the control box levers to assure the points were correct and tight to the rail. Visitors would sometimes move the points with their fingers so this would assure correct positioning.


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## cramden

Late to the party but this may be of help. I remembered this video after viewing it years ago. 



 Turns out I'm not the only "wacko" who saves ball point pen springs after the ink runs out.


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## dterhu

*two train operation*

I have revised my layout. I have operated two trains. The fiber pins are noted on the drawing. But when running one train I lose power when the train crosses the fiber pins on the right table but then speeds up when it passes the track clip coming up after the switch. When running one train on the trestle loop there are no issues with enough power (Using 18B dual transformer). When I switch from trestle layout to flat layout using switch to right of fiber pins on right table and take the outside route am I solely running on the track clip at the opposite end on the left table? I keep both throttles on while running. When I come off the trestle and take the track down the middle over the crossover and get to the next set of fiber pins (not going on the trestle layout, staying on the table) I am running on the other throttle (I think). My passenger engine will run the trestle layout fine (I assume off the right table clip) but as soon as I try to cross the fiber pins on the flat layout it has very little power. Should I install another track clip to boost power on the left side of the fiber pins? I think the grandkids will love the layout with being capable of going from trestle layout to flat layout then either staying there or going back up to trestle, etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
View attachment AF layout revised 10.19.pdf


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## AmFlyer

This is based on a very quick review of what you posted. First add a second 690 track clip on the flat layout just to the left of the LH turnout leading to the two sidings at the upper right. Second you can add a track clip on the elevated line just to the left of the crossing, before the LH turnout.
The balance of the issues sounds like some high resistance connections. It might be the brass contacts in the turnouts are not clean with adequate pressure from the sliding fingers. It could also be some loose or dirty track pins. Even though it is a pain I clean all my track pins with some sandpaper and make sure the fit is tight prior to fastening down the track. I also use a very small amount of conductive grease on all the track pins and on the 690 connection points when assembling the layout. I have also needed to tighten or rebend some of the 690 clips to keep them tight to the rail flanges.
You could add a lot more power feeds but they will defeat the power routing features of some of the turnouts and likely will not solve the problem.


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## dterhu

AmFlyer said:


> This is based on a very quick review of what you posted. First add a second 690 track clip on the flat layout just to the left of the LH turnout leading to the two sidings at the upper right. Second you can add a track clip on the elevated line just to the left of the crossing, before the LH turnout.
> The balance of the issues sounds like some high resistance connections. It might be the brass contacts in the turnouts are not clean with adequate pressure from the sliding fingers. It could also be some loose or dirty track pins. Even though it is a pain I clean all my track pins with some sandpaper and make sure the fit is tight prior to fastening down the track. I also use a very small amount of conductive grease on all the track pins and on the 690 connection points when assembling the layout. I have also needed to tighten or rebend some of the 690 clips to keep them tight to the rail flanges.
> You could add a lot more power feeds but they will defeat the power routing features of some of the turnouts and likely will not solve the problem.


Hi Tom,

I have attached a crude drawing of my layout that has been revised slightly since the first time you helped me. I have some questions.

This is about two-train operation. Awhile back you gave me some advice about using fiber pins because I was going to power the two trains from one transformer. But now I have two different transformers (18B & ZW) and would prefer not to use fiber pins. Just running one train using the ZW for now. I have bus lines and feeders to the entire layout, so no power issues.

I would like to run another set of bus lines from the second transformer (18B) to the smaller trestle loop. Then I would think I can transfer the feeder wires from the ZW transformer and attach them to the second transformer bus lines, correct?

I realize with two trains running the easier task in the table loop is go turnout 2 to 10. Then I only have to avoid the two trains meeting at the cross track. And you advised me about the cross track. My cross track is connected with opposing legs, not adjacent. But it would be way more fun with the option of going two or three directions with the train on the table loop.

So I want to have the section of track from turnout 3 to 1 operational by both transformers. This would allow the table loop the option of going thru turnouts 12 & 3 heading to 1 on it’s way to 9. Can I have feeder lines from both transformers to that section of track? If I’m running both loops at approximately the same speed can they both be on the trestle loop for that short section of track?

If I cannot have that section powered from both transformers can both trains be running at the same time in that section of the trestle loop? Does the one transformer have enough power to run both trains? And if so, will there be a loss of power while one train is in the section of the loop from turnout 3 to 1?

Thanks.
Doug


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## AmFlyer

This is one of those layout designs that I always test prior to nailing it down. Despite my best efforts sometimes there are sneak circuits or open track circuits that are not obvious. All turnouts should be set to 2-train operation. There are two separate loops in the track diagram, I highlighted them in red or blue. All other track is a siding or an interchange track between the two loops. Connected as shown all the track left black can be powered from either transformer depending on turnout position. I would initially test this layout with no fiber pins. You will need a short pice of track between turnouts 12 and 3 to connect the power as shown. Otherwise this will not work correctly.


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## AmFlyer

I have been looking at this a bit more. The problem with using just fiber pins is the track is not automatically powered when needed. The more I look at this I think the only way to make the layout work the way you want is a few fiber pins plus 761 Semaphores that are wired to the turnout controllers. The output contacts of the Semaphores then power the section of track selected whenever a related turnout is thrown. I have built a number of layouts using 761 Semaphores in this way. The wiring is straightforward but figuring out exactly where the fiber pins must be takes a lot of thought and may require some turnout rearrangement. For example the red part of turnout three may need to be the straight leg of a turnout.


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## dterhu

AmFlyer said:


> I have been looking at this a bit more. The problem with using just fiber pins is the track is not automatically powered when needed. The more I look at this I think the only way to make the layout work the way you want is a few fiber pins plus 761 Semaphores that are wired to the turnout controllers. The output contacts of the Semaphores then power the section of track selected whenever a related turnout is thrown. I have built a number of layouts using 761 Semaphores in this way. The wiring is straightforward but figuring out exactly where the fiber pins must be takes a lot of thought and may require some turnout rearrangement. For example the red part of turnout three may need to be the straight leg of a turnout.


OK. So we're talking pretty complicated for someone at my level of expertise. And I would rather not make modifications to the layout. If I drop the idea of sharing the section of track on the red route from turnout 3 to 1 then I don't need to insert a small section of track between turnout 12 and 3, correct? 

Now can the train on the blue loop go thru 2 going to 12 and thru 3 and use the section of track at the bottom of the table? I would obviously need to avoid a collision with the red loop train at turnout 12. And I'll already be avoiding a collision at the cross track. 

If one train is parked between turnouts 4 & 5 (all switches set to 2-train operation) can I take the train on the red loop and move it to the blue loop going thru turnout 3? Then the control switches to the other transformer. If that works then I can also go thru turnout 1 going to 9. To return that train to the red loop I would go thru turnout 2 and use 12 & 3 to return to the red loop? If so it appears I only need to hook up the red loop to the other transformer. The ZW is running everything now. 

Please let me know if the above makes sense.

Thanks for all your help.


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## AmFlyer

Now you know why I have a Legacy layout. These questions do not arise. The same with FlyerChief although their constant beeping when turned off but sitting on a powered track is very annoying.
I follow the questions and have some preliminary feedback on what works and how to do it. I am out of time today, back to it sometime tomorrow.


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## AmFlyer

For this layout to work correctly the two transformers powering the track must be wired independently. That means the two Base Posts cannot be tied together and any transformers that have the Base Posts internally connected (like the MRC AH101) cannot be used. The reason is connecting the Base Posts together defeats the turnout's 2 rail feature at junctions on whichever rail is connected to the Base Post. I feel the fiber pins shown at the x's will cause more problems than they solve. For now just jumper around them.
I am not familiar with the ZW internal wiring but it is possible that the commons (U terminal?) for the outputs are internally tied. The 18B does have both Base Posts connected together inside the transformer so only one track can be supplied from the 18B, and likely only one track from the ZW. The only dual control Gilbert transformer with two completely independent cores and wiring is the 350W 22090
Connect the power for the red loop counterclockwise from the straight leg of turnout 12.
Connect turnouts 4 and 5 to the same control box so both turnouts move simultaneously.
There are several sections of track that can have power from both transformers at once if the turnouts at both ends of the segment are not thrown together. As long as the transformers are correctly phased and they are outputting approximately the same voltage there is no problem. I use that feature to keep trains moving on interchange tracks as the turnouts are thrown in sequence.


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## dterhu

AmFlyer said:


> For this layout to work correctly the two transformers powering the track must be wired independently. That means the two Base Posts cannot be tied together and any transformers that have the Base Posts internally connected (like the MRC AH101) cannot be used. The reason is connecting the Base Posts together defeats the turnout's 2 rail feature at junctions on whichever rail is connected to the Base Post. I feel the fiber pins shown at the x's will cause more problems than they solve. For now just jumper around them.
> I am not familiar with the ZW internal wiring but it is possible that the commons (U terminal?) for the outputs are internally tied. The 18B does have both Base Posts connected together inside the transformer so only one track can be supplied from the 18B, and likely only one track from the ZW. The only dual control Gilbert transformer with two completely independent cores and wiring is the 350W 22090
> Connect the power for the red loop counterclockwise from the straight leg of turnout 12.
> Connect turnouts 4 and 5 to the same control box so both turnouts move simultaneously.
> There are several sections of track that can have power from both transformers at once if the turnouts at both ends of the segment are not thrown together. As long as the transformers are correctly phased and they are outputting approximately the same voltage there is no problem. I use that feature to keep trains moving on interchange tracks as the turnouts are thrown in sequence.


I now have turnouts 4 and 5 connected to the same control box and the turnouts move simultaneously. I didn't realize I could do that! It's slick throwing both switches with one lever. I removed the feeder wires in that section so I can park one train there while running the other on the rest of the layout.

I noticed that part of the left side of the PDF did not print for you. The x's are not fiber pins. I drew an arrow that was pointing to the word "trips" that didn't print on your copy. They are 697 track trips that I use to automatically throw turnouts 10,11 & 12. They prevent a lot of derailments when the grandkids are running the train. I did have to mark the sections of track near the clips as NO STOPPING OR STANDING since the turnouts would probably burnout if trains sit there for too long. Sorry about the confusion. 

As I mentioned the ZW is powering the entire layout now. I have buss lines and feeders every 2 or 3 ft. I am planning on running the red loop from the 18B and the blue from the ZW. I have put another set of buss lines under the red loop. You mention "connect the power for the red loop counterclockwise from the straight leg of turnout 12." So I want two feeder wires from the buss lines for the red loop to the straight leg of turnout 12? Why is it important that I start there? And what do you mean by counterclockwise? Can I just switch the feeder wires that are already hooked up to the ZW to the 18B?

What about turnout 3? The straight leg leads into the blue loop powered by the ZW. Does it need feeders at that point? I'm trying to run a train from the red loop thru 12 into the straight section of turnout 3 and join the blue loop. The power is switching from the red loop to the blue loop. 

I guess I could ask the same question about turnout 1. The section of track going to 9 is currently powered by the ZW. Do I need feeder wires from the blue loop to the curved section of turnout 1?

Thanks. 
Doug


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## AmFlyer

The trips work great if the trains always run the same direction, and you are right, do not let the engine sit on one of the track trips that throw the turnouts.
Just reconnect the existing feeder wires to the 18B and see what happens, it should work. I cannot tell where all the feeders are connected. I am assuming you have the transformers in phase. 
If you connect no feeders between the straight leg of turnout 3 and turnout 11 then that section of track can be powered from the 18B if turnout #3 is thrown straight or from the ZW if turnout #11 is thrown to divergent. I assumed this was how you wanted the layout to work. The same is true for the tracks between turnouts #1 and #10. The positions of #'s 1 and 10 determine which transformer will power that track. If you want those tracks to always be powered from the ZW then you will need a fiber pin in the divergent leg of #1 and in the straight leg of turnout #3 along with the power feeds you currently have connected.
Another example of flexibility if the connections are properly located is the use of the sidings behind turnout #8. With #12 and #7 to divergent and #2 straight, the 18B will power those 2 sidings. With #12 straight and #2 divergent the ZW powers the sidings. I think the layout you designed coupled with the 2 train feature of the Gilbert turnouts works fantastic to allow either transformer to access all the sidings and interconnection tracks. My only remaining concern would be T-boning a train at the crossing. I know I would do that sooner or later.


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