# I'm back, new house, new layout plans



## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I had reintroduced myself after a two year hiatus and I'm here for some advice and help. My last layout I was working on, I had a 10x10 ft room to work in. I got my wish, sort of, of some extra room with the new house. The new room is 17 ft by 10 ft-kind of. Here it is roughly drawn up in SketchUp.








So I spent some time trying to come up with what I should do. I will be using Kato Unitrack, because I have a bunch of it. So I've been playing with that in AnyRail for about a week. I came up with a few layout ideas. But none of them is quite perfect. I want to incorporate a coal mine, intermodal yard, saw mill, engine shop, and car repair shop. I also like the idea of a double main line to have trains passing in opposite directions while others are doing local runs of drop-off and pick-up. I want long run times, or as long as possible given my space constraints with prototypical train lengths, or as best as can be done with 2 or 3 locomotives. Bottom of benchwork will need to be at least 48 inches to accommodate my desk/racing sim. 
*Idea #1*
L-shaped dog bone. Too busy on the long side and too empty on the short side. Roughly 15 x 10 ft. 12 inch grid.









*Idea #2*
I liked this idea until I started to go through running the layout in my head. Yellow is the main yard, red is the engine and car repair shop, light blue the saw mill, the purple would be the intermodal yard, and green the coal mine. Several elevation changes, tunnels allow trains to "disappear" and reappear for more visual interest. But overall, not pleased with how I think it would operate. Still 15 x10 ft on a 12 inch grid. 








*Idea #3*
Probably the best one I've had so far. But still not ideal. I'm not crazy about the 3 foot layout depth at 50-52 inches since I'm only 68 inches tall. Duck under the yard to a triangular space to operate from. River on the left side. Incorporates the desired elements I want. It seemed boring visually, so I started adding some of the generic buildings and trees in AnyRail to give me an idea of how it might look. Yes I used a grain mill to simulate a coal mine. The row of 6 buildings was to simulate a town. Still 15 x10 ft on a 12 inch grid.









I want thoughts and input on what I should do. Idea #3 is the closest I've gotten to an idea I like. But I'm also not opposed to a 2 ft shelf around the room (even if it means hanging the door so it swings away from the room), I just don't know where to start for that. Around the room would be about a 50 ft run and maybe throw in a peninsula to make it closer to 60 ft. I've also toyed with the idea of a narrow shelf around the room double decked layout, but I would need to either wrap around the room once to make the elevation change, or build a helix or two. I've got everything I need minus benchwork (unless I need more track) and I can't do that without a track plan.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

If I may make an unusual suggestion? 
Instead of first planning on paper based on room size; get your office stuff arranged in a preferable location in there, and then using boxes of still unpacked stuff of saved empties/seasonal decor etc, stack those up to occupy space the proposed layout would consume. This way to can determine if an aisle/peninsula is even a good idea in the area, and if 3ft minimum aisles will work? You may discover that getting things out of the closet & out of the room would be easier without a peninsula? Bumping into stacked boxes would give you a full size mock up layout to navigate, adjust, rearrange, etc… Which works a lot better than 2D paper planning. 
Once you have that area with sufficient elbow room, closet access, and desirable aisle positions in the full size mock up, tape off the outline on the floor to get exact dimensions of the layout foot print. In fact you may want to have a “Plan B” arrangement too. Then paper plan track to fit that area.

As an example; it seems second nature to put a computer desk against a wall. But you may find it is better positioned center of the room straight in from the door, rathe4 than having to walk around the layout peninsula? Window access may also play a role in layout design. 
On the other hand, you may find an indirect route to the closet and utilizing that 6’ angled wall with a 4x8 jutting into the room with an attached L shape heading toward the right wall and down toward the bottom wall… With office desk located under the 4x8 area. That would put the aisles around the walls, layout center as an island design, computer desk accessible in a straight line from the door, and closet access would require walking the perimeter of the room. The mainline would be shorter but only by 2-3ft which may be worth it?

I would play around with full size “box mock ups” to decide what location and arrangement works best. I did this. I went through about 6 or 7 arrangements, having 2 or 3 eureka moments in that journey. Just my opinion. Worked so well for me I wouldn’t do it any other way. Results may vary.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Also; 
Of the 3 plans you posted, I like #2 best… but I’d relocate the yard. I’d put it front and center of the 90 degree turn, with a ladder near the passing siding and near the double diamond area. This throws a 90 degree turn in the middle of the yard, which everyone would say is crazy, but it’s not. They’d be correct that you cannot couple/uncouple in a curve, but you’d have basically two yards, the West Yard and South Yard. That would enable trains to leave either yard in either direction. It would allow very long unit trains to sit staged, and the yards could serve different functions as well, such as Classification/Sorting and Storage/Overflow or even a Coach Yard.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> If I may make an unusual suggestion?
> Instead of first planning on paper based on room size; get your office stuff arranged in a preferable location in there, and then using boxes of still unpacked stuff of saved empties/seasonal decor etc, stack those up to occupy space the proposed layout would consume. This way to can determine if an aisle/peninsula is even a good idea in the area, and if 3ft minimum aisles will work? You may discover that getting things out of the closet & out of the room would be easier without a peninsula? Bumping into stacked boxes would give you a full size mock up layout to navigate, adjust, rearrange, etc… Which works a lot better than 2D paper planning.
> Once you have that area with sufficient elbow room, closet access, and desirable aisle positions in the full size mock up, tape off the outline on the floor to get exact dimensions of the layout foot print. In fact you may want to have a “Plan B” arrangement too. Then paper plan track to fit that area.
> 
> ...


My wife had a similar suggestion. Move the furniture in there (bed, dresser, etc) into my office and get my computer and racing sim in there, but she suggested I just build track on the floor and move the desk/sim around as needed. The bright side to that closet is about 75% of what's in there at the moment, is my train stuff. A few empty boxes from the racing sim and one tote of christmas tree ornaments. Access to the closet would be good, though I've got direct access to the attic over the garage through the bathroom across the hall for storage. But access would be good, especially without needing to do a lift out section or something similar. 

And you may have just given me a eureka moment in regards to desk/sim placement. I was thinking put it against the wall. My computer is what runs the racing sim (Forumla 1 2022, software for the wheel/pedals/motion platform), so they can be any arrangement adjacent to each other, even if it means they are under a part of the layout. Even in the center of the room under a peninsula. Don't have to worry about cords because If it's under the layout, I can't walk/trip over it. So I can almost plan whatever shape, so long as I have the overhead clearance to fit the sim/computer desk under the layout.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> Also;
> Of the 3 plans you posted, I like #2 best… but I’d relocate the yard. I’d put it front and center of the 90 degree turn, with a ladder near the passing siding and near the double diamond area. This throws a 90 degree turn in the middle of the yard, which everyone would say is crazy, but it’s not. They’d be correct that you cannot couple/uncouple in a curve, but you’d have basically two yards, the West Yard and South Yard. That would enable trains to leave either yard in either direction. It would allow very long unit trains to sit staged, and the yards could serve different functions as well, such as Classification/Sorting and Storage/Overflow or even a Coach Yard.


I'll have to play with that in the software and see what works. I've tried a yard on a turn before and it was a pain, both on paper and in practice due to me using Unitrack. But something I've thought of trying while paper planning. IIRC trying to get things to line up on a 90 degree bend with the turn out spacing was the problem. Just trying to model it now and it would require many expanding track pieces to work. But it could be done.

Something like this?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I was thinking more like this. If you made the top portion of the table 4 feet deep, you could put the yard like this. The only issue would be being able to reach the back wall.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

usafajk324 said:


> I'll have to play with that in the software and see what works. I've tried a yard on a turn before and it was a pain, both on paper and in practice due to me using Unitrack. But something I've thought of trying while paper planning. IIRC trying to get things to line up on a 90 degree bend with the turn out spacing was the problem. Just trying to model it now and it would require many expanding track pieces to work. But it could be done.
> 
> Something like this?
> View attachment 587758


Exactly like that. Mind you it is operationally two straight yards, with connecting curves. Several purposes as mentioned; longer stored trains if that’s desirable (long passenger or coal etc), capability for trains to depart in either direction which is a big plus IMO, aesthetically looks larger, etc. Cars can be stored on the curve, just not coupled/uncoupled there. Around the walls will make opening & cleaning windows tricky though.
I almost did such a 90 degree yard myself, under two basement egress windows (fire exits) but, putting aside the code violation, I didn’t want to climb on the layout to exit/clean/open the windows. That when a Taco Bell slogan hit me, thinking outside the bun I reversed aisle & layout locations. Saved me more on backdrop that switching to geico 6 times.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Either option makes it difficult to reach the back of the layout. So I'm probably going to explore some kind of shelf/peninsula combination and see what I can come up with


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So this is kind of what I'm looking at doing now I think. Total distance of the double main line is about 1260 inches. So 630 inches for the full loop or about 1.6 scale miles. Should allow for some good long runs, and I'll avoid blocking the entrance to the room and the closet. 

But I haven't decided on exactly how I want it to go. I have visions of a "bridge" to maybe a second level, or an elevated portion of the layout from the U-shape near the door, across the room towards the windows. 

The turns on either side of the door would be backdropped, but the U in as you walk in the door would be open to both sides. It won't be the plate style double main line the entire way, but portions would be. I'd like to have some parts that separate a little, like the S near the closet, so one track could be a level grade, while another climbs or descends to join it's elevation eventually. I know the north end of the yard isn't connected to the rest of the mainline in this picture, but it's progress towards a layout I think I'll enjoy. 

Part of me feels it might be easier or harder to find a portion of the UP (almost all the locomotives I have are UP) I'd like to model (Evanston sub seems popular in N and HO) but I don't know enough about the actual subs to choose one to model. In Shreveport when I was stationed there KCS ran right by my neighborhood and I had wanted to model that, but not enough locos in the current paint scheme were available. There was also a UP yard in the area. Here in Royston there is a local line that runs between NS north of us in Toccoa and CSX east-southeast of us in Elberton.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Will it be open on the inside? If not, how will you reach the back?


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Unfortunately I don’t know much about the UP; they’re yellow, that cliche mustached villain who ties up damsels and leaves them on the rails was inspired by the original CEO or something, and the employ some great track inspectors. _cough_ 

I have heard of the Evanston Sub, but only from Roy Smith’s youtube channel. No idea where it is geographically. Wyoming maybe? Or Utah? His oval helix was a godsend for me. 
Sounds like you’ve got a great deal of research ahead. Though it sounds like a location that interchanges with Eastern roads appeals to you? So that may be a lead to follow. Maybe more St Louis or Tulsa (big big big aviation maintenance center there if you have aircraft cars etc), or Shreveport as you mentioned. I’m not sure if Amtrak interests you but pretty sure one goes through Shreveport; whereas the Evanston Sub is only an alternate route (from what Roy Smith stated). Then of course is Nebraska, which even plywood might be too hilly scenery wise. But having North Platte Yard “nearby” opens a flood gate of possibilities. 
It’s gonna be a tough call.
While a location that is popular to model has pros & cons, someplace not as often modeled does too. That’s a very personal choice & thus no wrong answer.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> Will it be open on the inside? If not, how will you reach the back?


Yes it would be open. The square area by the door and then duck under the U to access the “island” aisle way if you will. 




OilValleyRy said:


> Unfortunately I don’t know much about the UP; they’re yellow, that cliche mustached villain who ties up damsels and leaves them on the rails was inspired by the original CEO or something, and the employ some great track inspectors. _cough_
> 
> I have heard of the Evanston Sub, but only from Roy Smith’s youtube channel. No idea where it is geographically. Wyoming maybe? Or Utah? His oval helix was a godsend for me.
> Sounds like you’ve got a great deal of research ahead. Though it sounds like a location that interchanges with Eastern roads appeals to you? So that may be a lead to follow. Maybe more St Louis or Tulsa (big big big aviation maintenance center there if you have aircraft cars etc), or Shreveport as you mentioned. I’m not sure if Amtrak interests you but pretty sure one goes through Shreveport; whereas the Evanston Sub is only an alternate route (from what Roy Smith stated). Then of course is Nebraska, which even plywood might be too hilly scenery wise. But having North Platte Yard “nearby” opens a flood gate of possibilities.
> ...


I follow Roy on YouTube and came across someone modeling Evanston in HO as well. If I could get some shells that were already painted in NS/CSX for my current line up of locos (SD60, SD70M & ACe’s, ES44’s) I’d be fine choosing something prototype wise to model from either company. But I’d also be happy to stick with UP and do a prototype or just something that suits my liking.

Right now I’m just trying to wrap my head around how to get two levels that connect but aren’t so vertically separated I need to run around the room to get there. I’m not opposed to a helix but they take up a lot of space and I don’t know where I’d put one.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

A duck under double track bridge would be pretty cool.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I'm working on refining the shape of the tracks to look more "natural" and still trying to figure out a way to add a second layer to the layout. I have an idea for that, it may only be a single line up there with a loop about 8 inches above the main layout, so not double deck, but much higher than any mainline variations.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Why not 2 different tracks at different elevations? One at sea level, and one up in the hills.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> Why not 2 different tracks at different elevations? One at sea level, and one up in the hills.


That is kind of the direction I'm leaning with the double main. They will be nearby, sometimes completely parallel, but other times they will split and run at different elevations. Then the outer most line may branch off and elevate even higher to a separate single main run. I can see it in my head, it's just figuring out how to make it work now. 

This is as far as I got today. Starting to get somewhere. Near the closet is a spot where the two main lines will split, one eventually splitting off to head across the room, maybe to a wye, and climbing to a slightly higher elevation on the U-shape near the door. I haven't quite worked out what the upper loop will do. Might need to get the lower level figured out and built before I move on to the upper level. I had thought of doing a folded dog bone as well. Having the double main climb up to a second level, but you can't then do any cross overs from one side to another with out reversing polarity.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I've been playing with the idea above and in order to get what I want out of the layout, I think I'll have to include a helix and make it two levels. So here's what I've got so far. Helix in the closet (just take the doors off it) and the upper level will be 10 inches above the lower level. About 3% grade on the elevation changes. Total track is about 10 scale miles, but that includes the yard and helix. So likely more like 6-8 scale miles of running.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Pardon me for saying this, but yuck. It’s the circle helix, in a closet that is huge red flag. Bad location for access, and enclosed are always bad too. 
But you’ve already got a better location in that plan. You see that peninsula over toward the right? Put an oval shape helix under that area, open on the sides with a central backdrop. Easy to see, access, watch, and clean, from three sides no less. 
That’s how mine will be. 
Don’t thank me, thank Roy Smith and his Evanston Div. UP layout.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> Pardon me for saying this, but yuck. It’s the circle helix, in a closet that is huge red flag. Bad location for access, and enclosed are always bad too.
> But you’ve already got a better location in that plan. You see that peninsula over toward the right? Put an oval shape helix under that area, open on the sides with a central backdrop. Easy to see, access, watch, and clean, from three sides no less.
> That’s how mine will be.
> Don’t thank me, thank Roy Smith and his Evanston Div. UP layout.


So bright side for the helix, and less so for me wanting two levels, is that unless I lower the main level, the second level would be too high for me to see. And I can't lower the main level because I need to be able to fit my desk under it. 

So it will be some kind of shelf layout around the room that maybe doesn't have quite as extreme an elevation change as 10 inches. But should hopefully not require a helix. But I'm about at my whits end coming up with a layout I like and actually want to build.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Sometimes less is more. When I started into my build, I wanted the longest possible track, which ended up looking like a plate of spaghetti.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

With the above layout and helix, even though it would achieve the long runs, it is visually boring and uninteresting to run. I'm just going to play with drawing features I would like to have to operate trains around and find a way to connect them. Have a wye and then have say a coal mine but it has to be serviced from the opposite track so it needs a set of cross overs and a siding. But also have a reasonable distance to run trains.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Did you move your desk in there yet? 
I think I spent a year just moving boxes around in my layout space, trying to figure out a “foot print” that I liked. (Living with different arrangements for a couple months each time). A full size mock up using whatever you can is a real hands on in your face kind of thing paper or 3D plans just can’t give you. It’s free. Can provide eureka moments, etc. You may find, as I did, flipping original layout and aisle spaces works better for you? A lot easier to see what the Mrs or others think walking the mock up too. 
Especially at wits end.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Your overall size constraints are very similar to what I had to start with. I played around with track designs for months. Here is a 3-d view of one iteration that I was really excited about. It had miles ands miles of track. At the time, I was trying to put together the longest single run I could make. Rather than a helix, I opted for the tracks to circle a mountain then exit from the peak over a river to another high peak. Starts out as a double track, then splits into single as one bridge exits half way up.









I ended up with something completely different. But at the time, I thought I HAD to have this setup. It was an L shape, with the empty area being where you would operate it from.

I am much more of a "watch trains run" than I am a "switcher." But I do like to give the trains a good variety of paths to keep things interesting. While I'm not really into prodding off and picking up, I do like to see my trains change direction through a turnout, or series of turnouts.

I like long runs, tunnels and bridges. So I decided to model along a river in the Ohio Valley so I could have all 3. But it took me about 5 months to land on a layout I finally wanted to build. If I could start over, I would add more spurs and yards, and cut back on some of the rural scenery.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I was going to try to get home early from work today and empty the room and put my desk and racing sim in there, but a transmission kept me occupied most of the day. So I didn't get home until a little while ago. I was planning to just put track out on the floor and play with it and see what I could come up with and having the two big things that I'd need to work around in there. But I may also just try to model a few features I like and then see how I can link them. The guest room has kind of become a storage space for random things since my parents last visited.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

When planning you industries, don't forget to give someplace for the good to come from or go to and a route to get there. i.e. coal mine: Where does the coal go? To tipples along the mainline (steam era)? To a distributor in the city? To a location off layout (how do they get there and return, where are they stored full and empty when off layout)? To a powerplant, needs at least a couple-3 sidings, one for unloading, one for full waiting to be emptied, one for empties waiting to be returned to mine? Powerplants use a lot of coal so sidings need to be long enough to handle a number of cars, needs a run around track for switcher moving the cars around, an unloading facility. Even a small powerplant needs water so can be a major industry. rail served companies are not one way.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Not to mention parking lots. That’s an after thought for so many folks.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

scenicsRme said:


> When planning you industries, don't forget to give someplace for the good to come from or go to and a route to get there. i.e. coal mine: Where does the coal go? To tipples along the mainline (steam era)? To a distributor in the city? To a location off layout (how do they get there and return, where are they stored full and empty when off layout)? To a powerplant, needs at least a couple-3 sidings, one for unloading, one for full waiting to be emptied, one for empties waiting to be returned to mine? Powerplants use a lot of coal so sidings need to be long enough to handle a number of cars, needs a run around track for switcher moving the cars around, an unloading facility. Even a small powerplant needs water so can be a major industry. rail served companies are not one way.


Advice I had been given on the layout I was working on when living in Louisiana. Coal mine will feed a powerplant. Haven't decided if on layout or off. I'd like to do on layout. 

I may also be using a different spare bedroom than the one I was planning for. My wife suggested I use the bedroom she's using as an office. It's not quite as long (about 4 inches shorter) and about a foot shallower, but the shape of it means I'm not having to contend with the inward swinging door. The closet is also a 5x5 square, could be a good spot for off layout staging and my desk underneath it. 

And despite the size and shape difference, the run is not actually all that different. About 100 inches of track less, which works out to about 4 feet lost on both main lines. But I don't lose space from one side of the room to the other to go around the door. 










Edit: I also ordered another loco (AC6000) and another 8 car coal porter set, along with some more container cars and box cars. So I'll have 16 of the Kato coal cars (and 4-8 others from my dad that I'll repaint/weather) and 15 container gondolas. I should have enough locos for 3 two train consists running/switching around each other and one or two single locos for shorter local runs or switch of cars at the powerplant if I get that on layout.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

A cool idea I’ve seen in mags and in person is having a coal mine on one side of a backdrop or hill, and a power plant directly opposite, with 2 tracks hidden but straight through. This way your track with loaded cars outbound from the mine is the same track as the inbound for the power plant, just at the opposite end. Same for empties the other direction. No more pulling empty cars out of the mine.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I've spent some time over the course of this afternoon/evening working on a layout for this room. Yard is long enough for 16-18 cars with locomotives, depending on cars. On the north wall (left side) is the coal mine and it's siding, long enough for 8-10 cars per side. 

On the south bend is where the power plant will be, near a river, hence the 3 bridges. 

I wanted to include a wye because I think they are really cool and that is the most compact one I could come up with without actually using wye switches (I only have one currently. 

Within the peninsula is going to be the intermodal yard. Along the north and east walls on the inside I'll have some other industries/town (maybe) serviced by box cars though with the intermodal yard nearby, it might not make sense. The lumber mill may be somewhere in this area as well

And I'm toying with the idea of two staging sidings/interchange into the closet. My desk may end up in there instead and I can probably put the racing sim under the peninsula. I'll either need a really long HDMI cable or have to move my computer when I do the sim racing. I'm glad wireless peripherals are a thing. 

But for the most part I'm happy with this layout so far. I'm sure adjustments will come with actually building and accommodating structures. No section will be too deep to reach the back and still maintain 36 inch aisle space. 










So what do we think?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I love the use of a triangular junction like that! Very clever layout!

There are a couple things I would suggest. First, I would try to have at least one mainline that doesn't have to curve to continue straight, if that makes sense. I do like meandering curves, but some of the curves in there feel forced.

Second, I would change the yard on the north. After it branches off the main line to the left, have a series of right-hand turnouts. Their diverging tracks will turn back parallel to the main line in a ladder-like manner, and look really sharp, without the need to bend any curves.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> I love the use of a triangular junction like that! Very clever layout!


Thanks! I've wanted to include a wye on a layout because there was one that UP had at the south end of the Shreveport Hollywood yard and there was a little neighborhood in the middle of it.










I'm trying to keep the peninsula on the right side since the room is deepest there, but I might have to flip the positions of the power plant and the coal mine. Power plant supplying the town from almost across the layout just doesn't sit right with me.

I don't quite follow what you mean about the curves. 

But I do understand what you're saying about the coal mine yard on the left (north) wall. I'll have to flip the direction it faces, because I have more left diverging turn outs. But I agree, and the radius of those curves on the siding is the same as the turnouts. Added benefit is the entrance to the coal mine is further from the yard.









Something like that instead.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Yes, the yard looks a lot better like that.

The curve I was referring to is in the bottom left (I think that would be northwest). I don't like having the curve bumped out like that.

Hope that makes sense.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> Yes, the yard looks a lot better like that.
> 
> The curve I was referring to is in the bottom left (I think that would be northwest). I don't like having the curve bumped out like that.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.


I think I follow. The curve out of the north end of the yard towards the coal mine. I did that to keep the main line run long (as well as the yard) but to make for interesting operations. The coal mine that sevices the powerplant are now on opposite main lines. I could get rid of the bump, but I think operationally it would make the servicing of the powerplant from the coal mine a little too simple with them both on the inner main line.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Which track is the power plant track? One of the three? Or the one kind of off by itself there? 
If the latter config; I’m wondering out loud (on a keyboard?) if that might be better reversed with power plant siding following the wall, and mainlines with less… Rephrase: Would it maybe be better to have three tracks where that lonely one is, and one siding near the wall or no?


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> Which track is the power plant track? One of the three? Or the one kind of off by itself there?
> If the latter config; I’m wondering out loud (on a keyboard?) if that might be better reversed with power plant siding following the wall, and mainlines with less… Rephrase: Would it maybe be better to have three tracks where that lonely one is, and one siding near the wall or no?


The run that cuts the 45 degree corner is power plant. I think the siding that follows the main might not be necessary other than the change from one main to the other with trains in either direction. 

The 3 stick yard top center is going to be intermodal. 

I hope this makes sense, if I'm understanding you correctly.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I think I have my finalized starting point for the layout. I realized I could put text in to make it clearer what is where. I decided to flip the side the peninsula shape goes, so the town being supplied by the power plant is closer. Made some slight modifications to make better use of track already on hand.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I do have something of a question, if anyone can answer it for me. The unitrack turnouts have the remote switching wiring. I previously wired some DPDT momentary center off switches to a board with some capacitors, resistors, and LED's to be able to throw the turnouts and show status. I would like to do this with DCC now. I've got an NCE power cab. Can I do that? If so, what do I need for the 30 or so turnouts I've got planned on my layout? Are there stationary decoders with multiple inputs/outputs?


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Since the turnout control switch is not a DCC decoder, I see no reason to change from the switches you had been using. They were not part of the train control system, so DC or DCC should be irrelevant.

But I run DCC and Kato unitrack. I use Ken Stapleton's 751K switches for this purpose. You can see them at 751 SERIES ELECTRONIC TURNOUT SWITCHES.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

usafajk324 said:


> I do have something of a question, if anyone can answer it for me. The unitrack turnouts have the remote switching wiring. I previously wired some DPDT momentary center off switches to a board with some capacitors, resistors, and LED's to be able to throw the turnouts and show status. I would like to do this with DCC now. I've got an NCE power cab. Can I do that? If so, what do I need for the 30 or so turnouts I've got planned on my layout? Are there stationary decoders with multiple inputs/outputs?



If you are wanting to control the turnouts with your remote you will need decoders. Nce make th they are call switch Kat used for unitrack turnouts. I know digitrax also make them I can't think of the name offhand but you can use them you are not just stick with nce. I know getting decoders for the turnouts gets expensive I believe for 20 turnouts you said you have will cost a arm and a leg nce sells them for 32$ each and that is just for one turnout...

Make sure you read up on wiring kato unitrack turnouts I guess some you will need to make modifications to since thry power route.

Read this page for explanation of wiring



https://wiringfordcc.com/switches_kato.htm#:~:text=This%20switch%20is%20not%20DCC,at%20all%20clearing%20the%20points


.


Nce switch Kat





__





NCE DCC Online Store


NCE DCC Online Store




www.ncedcc.com


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Steve Rothstein said:


> Since the turnout control switch is not a DCC decoder, I see no reason to change from the switches you had been using. They were not part of the train control system, so DC or DCC should be irrelevant.
> 
> But I run DCC and Kato unitrack. I use Ken Stapleton's 751K switches for this purpose. You can see them at 751 SERIES ELECTRONIC TURNOUT SWITCHES.


I think I came across those in my searching in the wee hours last night. Might just stick to my analog solution I can make for about $5.


Conductorkev said:


> If you are wanting to control the turnouts with your remote you will need decoders. Nce make th they are call switch Kat used for unitrack turnouts. I know digitrax also make them I can't think of the name offhand but you can use them you are not just stick with nce. I know getting decoders for the turnouts gets expensive I believe for 20 turnouts you said you have will cost a arm and a leg nce sells them for 32$ each and that is just for one turnout...
> 
> Make sure you read up on wiring kato unitrack turnouts I guess some you will need to make modifications to since thry power route.
> 
> ...


I figured it would be expensive. Was hoping to find a stationary decoder that did more than one turn out. 

Power routing hasn't been an issue yet with these turnouts for me with dcc


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

usafajk324 said:


> I figured it would be expensive. Was hoping to find a stationary decoder that did more than one turn out.


Sorry, I might have misunderstood what you were looking for since I prefer the manual switches over DCC turnout controls. The Digitrax DS-74 decoder will control up to four turnouts in one decoder. If you do like I do and wire both sides of a turnout to one switch, the pulse is enough to control two together on each of the four command points.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

usafajk324 said:


> I think I came across those in my searching in the wee hours last night. Might just stick to my analog solution I can make for about $5.
> 
> I figured it would be expensive. Was hoping to find a stationary decoder that did more than one turn out.
> 
> Power routing hasn't been an issue yet with these turnouts for me with dcc



Ya I use slow motion for my turnouts mostly tortoise and the decoder for them is 80$ buy controls 8. 33 for one decoder is insane especially when you have 30 as you said.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I may have to do the DPDT switch set up I was working on then with the last layout. I can't change out the solenoids in the unitrack for something else.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

I like where you have gotten to at this version. 
My concern is for how you will access the center area. A duck under may seem like an easy solution now, but as you get older and less nimble ducking and crawling will also get old even faster. I suggest planning in a hinged swing or lift section now, You'll thank me 10 years from now, They aren't that difficult to build,


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I concur with @scenicsRme and suggest a half door type swing gate with track on top. Pretty easy to build from 1x4s, a pair of hinges, a simple L bracket or scrap 1x4 piece as a stop, and a slide latch to lock it closed. 
If you really wanted to get fancy to prevent accidents, it could be wired with spring-loaded contacts in the closed position, so that when the gate is open the track on top plus a foot to each side would not be powered. So even if you forgot to close the gate you’ll never have a disaster. An upswing bridge does that automatically but only from one direction. And hinged need to be top mounted which interrupts scenery.

Stationary decoders: I have one that can control 8 turnouts. I think it was $50 about 17 years ago, so $80 sounds about correct today. 
Cost wise you’d be better off doing different areas of TO control by local panels, all powered by an AC power bus. Unitrak TOs are AC IIRC. So your yard would have a CTC type panel there locally, a separate one for the intermodal yard near there, a third by the power plant, etc. if you’re going to be pulling a train into the mine sidings, odds are high you’ll be standing near there.
Tower Operators are kind of a cool concept too. I once operated as Engineer and a relative as Conductor, I worked the throttle and they threw TOs as needed to get our train where it had to go. Was fun voice (radio) communication. Would’ve been more fun via hand signals. same thing with CTC if say, a cousin is interested in operating but too shy to drive a train. Solo you just do both yourself. It’s a niche idea sure, but the option being there is kinda nice design-wise IMO. 

I’m not certain if or how Unitrak TOs are designed and if the solenoids can get power from a non-track source. The reason I’d prefer that is so TOs and CTC panel indicators are not drawing from the supply the locos are. The most sure fire option is using Kato’s TO controllers. And if you don’t like the ugly blue casings, either repaint them, disassemble & reassemble into a CTC panel, or mount behind the CTC panel with lever extensions of some sort. But you’d know 100% kato controllers will do the job correctly.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

scenicsRme said:


> I like where you have gotten to at this version.
> My concern is for how you will access the center area. A duck under may seem like an easy solution now, but as you get older and less nimble ducking and crawling will also get old even faster. I suggest planning in a hinged swing or lift section now, You'll thank me 10 years from now, They aren't that difficult to build,


I'd thought about doing a swing open gate, but when I got to planning where industries would be and length needed for the yard based on train length, I couldn't really do it. The yard is on the west side of the room and that's where the entrance to the room is. Clearance to the bottom of the layout is 48 1/2 inches. I'm 5 foot 8. So it's not too bad and I'm still relatively nimble at 30. 

I ordered the parts I was missing this weekend from Train World (labor day sale) and picked up some 1x4's today to start benchwork. As far as the TO's go, I'll be placing an order with parts express for what I need once I get the benchwork done, track laid, and trains running on it. I picked up a few years ago, a DC power brick for running the kato turnouts. So I'll have the track bus and a separate turnout bus running on the layout. The controls for the switches will be placed on facia relative to the turnout position on the layout. I may eventually do DCC control of them. 

I also decided to go for a newer/more modern DCC system. I've had the NCE Power Cab for a few years now, used it on the dozen or so started but never finished layouts when I lived in Louisiana. I wound up ordering a Digitrax EVOX system for the wireless throttle and ease of use, IMO, from some videos I watched on it.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Swing the entire yard! I love my NCE Powercab! The software and firmware is stable and reliable, well tested, still current in design. Problem with Digitrax is the are so anxious to introduce "new" products they use the paying customers as Beta testers. Therir systems are not usually all in one box solutions, you find out that there are other products you need to get it all working which may or not be currently available. NCE makes a wireless system as well. This is my opinion, YMMV!
I have recently seen a lift section across a doorway that used ball bearing draw slides on each side and counter balances to raise and lower effortlessly. Very clever solution.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

scenicsRme said:


> Swing the entire yard! I love my NCE Powercab! The software and firmware is stable and reliable, well tested, still current in design. Problem with Digitrax is the are so anxious to introduce "new" products they use the paying customers as Beta testers. Therir systems are not usually all in one box solutions, you find out that there are other products you need to get it all working which may or not be currently available. NCE makes a wireless system as well. This is my opinion, YMMV!
> I have recently seen a lift section across a doorway that used ball bearing draw slides on each side and counter balances to raise and lower effortlessly. Very clever solution.


The Digitrax setup I got should hopefully be an improvement for me. Being able to just hook into the command station directly vs the powercab needing the separate board (that I think I've lost in the move, should be in a box somewhere?) and ability to handle more locomotives. I'm sure I could do that with a booster on the powercab though. 

I've started on benchwork, the easy part of the room. The stuff that, regardless of track plan, shouldn't change. View is from about eye level with me being 68 inches tall. It's 52 inches to the top of the 1x4s with the plan being most of the track will be at 54 inches.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

yes, that's what I did to allow more cabs, added a SB5. My layout is 18'x 8' letter M shape double decked > 700' of track. You'll like the higher deck. Have you figured out what you will do with the window? Cover it over, have a break in the backdrop, crawl under to access? Depending on the orientation you may want to add some solar film to keep the UV from eating up your layout and/or blinding you at certain times of the day, being able to control the lighting 24-7.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

scenicsRme said:


> yes, that's what I did to allow more cabs, added a SB5. My layout is 18'x 8' letter M shape double decked > 700' of track. You'll like the higher deck. Have you figured out what you will do with the window? Cover it over, have a break in the backdrop, crawl under to access? Depending on the orientation you may want to add some solar film to keep the UV from eating up your layout and/or blinding you at certain times of the day, being able to control the lighting 24-7.


I had planned to have a break in the backdrop around the window. I'm only going a foot high with some 1/8 inch hardboard. I didn't account for the window when planning benchwork, but the track will clear it by more than enough to make up for it. Just going to be some weird construction of benchwork. I'm not thrilled with the construction method I'm using, but it's cost effective. My previous layout, the benchwork was much nicer. 

The only part of the layout really going to be at 52 inches is the inner peninsula track and lumber mill. I may play with a quarter inch variance here or there, just to not make it look like it's on a flat sheet of plywood. But having the track start above the benchwork height to allow for the surrounding terrain to be lower was something I wanted to do.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Here's what the last layout I was working on was supposed to be. I was much happier with this benchwork, but it was a much smaller room. Only 10x10 ft. Now I've got 17 ft by 9 and some change. The room does go to about 12 feet window to door.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I've been playing with the track plan I have, as I'm building benchwork. I made some modifications to it. I removed the siding in the town, figuring the town is close enough to the intermodal yard, businesses there could be served by truck from the rail yard. I also moved the intermodal yard north slightly. I moved that siding on the inside loop near the coal mine, though I don't yet know what purpose it will serve. I also removed the pass through siding by the powerplant, so there is only one. I added a stub to the yard for loco parking/refueling. 

That leaves me wondering if I want to keep the wye in the layout or to remove it. What do y'all think? It gets me 4 turnouts back, some curves (which I have other radii not used on this layout), and some straight sections. But then what do I do with those? I could remove just the straight through north-south section and get two turnouts back while still having a reversing loop as well.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I say keep the wye for 2 reasons; it’s visually interesting and provides a way to reverse locos without using hands if necessary. 
I would’ve kept the storage siding/visible staging near the power plant as an inbound for loaded trains. A double track into the plant could work, but storage along the mainline is more interesting visually and operationally. A switcher could pull the empties out onto that storage track, then proceed off to working the saw mill etc. A loaded coal train could pull into the power plant siding, drop it’s cars, go pick up the empties on the storage siding, and head for the mine, or the yard.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> I say keep the wye for 2 reasons; it’s visually interesting and provides a way to reverse locos without using hands if necessary.
> I would’ve kept the storage siding/visible staging near the power plant as an inbound for loaded trains. A double track into the plant could work, but storage along the mainline is more interesting visually and operationally. A switcher could pull the empties out onto that storage track, then proceed off to working the saw mill etc. A loaded coal train could pull into the power plant siding, drop it’s cars, go pick up the empties on the storage siding, and head for the mine, or the yard.


I figured I would keep it on there. I'll see what I can do for that other siding. It may not be as long and be only single ended for a few cars to fit on. But operationally, I agree, more interesting. I could probably do away with both lines of track on the coal mine itself. Each siding is long enough for 8 cars, I have 16, but couldn't "load" both at the same time. Might give me more track for some other siding/industry.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I like the wye. It adds something that most layouts don't have.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> I like the wye. It adds something that most layouts don't have.


I think I'll keep the wye then. I was browsing the thread on your build Jeff, amazing work by the way, and saw what looked like the diamond coal mine kit. I noticed you decided to go with only one track for the mine, decided it might be worth a shot with my layout idea to be able to create another industry spur. I also put a small spur off by the power plant for car storage. I'm starting to like where this is going.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

In hind sight, I would have liked more yards.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Sacrifice of having only one line on the coal mine to have another siding for another industry is worth it for me. Just need to finish benchwork, but my shoulder has been acting strange today. 
After that, test fit the track on the benchwork and buy some foam. I was going to do plywood base, but I think foam will be more economical and easier to work with than just plywood.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

If you want to be very economical, use foam only where track and structures will be. For everything else used strips of cardboard woven, hot glued to the foam & fascia, and cover that in paper towels dunked in dyed plaster. 
It’s called Plaster Shell scenery if you’ve never read/seen it. But depending on the price of foam for a 4x8x2, you might want to price compare using 1x4x8 (cut to needed lengths). Might be cheaper, might not. Foam insulation sheets aren’t readily available everywhere I understand. Regardless there is no real need to have a flat surface everywhere, or solid mountains. You can do it that way, but it’s not cost effective.
Just something to consider.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

For the most part I'm thinking of just foam under track and structures. Plus the foam is easier to deal with than plywood for elevation changes. I had planned to do plaster shell for any in between scenery


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Whatever you do don't be tempted to "carve" an incline for track. No matter how hard you try, the carved foam will not be "flat." I'm a big fan of Woodland Scenic's foam risers and incline sets.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I've tried that in the past, was not good. I'm tempted to try either a jig on my table saw, but I might just go for the woodland scenics foam. I have on planned straight run where I may just incline the foam from one level to another, no carving, just level foam on an angle.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Yes, level foam on an angle can work You just need to shave down the edge so it can be flush with the ground level.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I still have concerns over this part of the layout plan. It seems both of these turnouts could be problem areas for you, since the train must "change course" to stay on the main line. imagine a train coming down from the top on the inner main line. The train starts jogging to the right through a turnout, then begins a left-hand turn past the engine repair facility. If you could re-work that area such that a train on the main line only "jogs" by exiting onto a siding/spur. A similar "jogging" happens on the outer main line also.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> I still have concerns over this part of the layout plan. It seems both of these turnouts could be problem areas for you, since the train must "change course" to stay on the main line. imagine a train coming down from the top on the inner main line. The train starts jogging to the right through a turnout, then begins a left-hand turn past the engine repair facility. If you could re-work that area such that a train on the main line only "jogs" by exiting onto a siding/spur. A similar "jogging" happens on the outer main line also.
> 
> View attachment 588904


Something I'll look at when I get benchwork done and can start laying track and testing. But I did that to get the yard length I wanted and still have enough room on the outside of the track before the wall for buildings and such. I couldn't precisely get the room size drawn up (16 ft 4 in) so I went with a round 17 ft. So I'm losing 2 inches on the north and south side of the layout or 4 on one or the other. I think it should be fine, I'm not planning to run at bullet train speeds.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

What is your radius for the curves directly below that area? I'd rather tighten up a curve radius (within reason) than have a main-line using a diverging route of a turnout. Or... perhaps you can "flip" those 2 turnouts so the straight paths are part of the main line?


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

The inner curve is 15 inches and the outer is 16 and change. Those are the double track, superelevated parts from the large loop kit Kato makes. I'll take a look at what else I can do this afternoon, I'll be in front of my computer doing training for work to make up for lack of wrench time this week. 

My track from Train World finally shipped today, must have been a good Labor Day sale for them.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I see... I don't think Kato makes any tighter curves in their superelevated double track. Give it a try. Perhaps the Kato track is good enough to not worry too much about the turnouts.
I'm sure you are excited to be getting your track soon!


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Maybe use painters tape on the outside ballast areas to hold track in place before permanently securing it, and then test run the ever loving week out of it with every loco & freight cars (and long train lengths too) available? 
That may have and probably was your intention, but I’d rather sound preaching to the choir than later say “sorry, I assumed you’d test it.”


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

They offer an 11 1/8-12 3/8 radius super elevated. I was trying to build with what I had (tell that to my $300+ order from train world) and for the most part, I am using 13, 15, and 28 inch radii. I do plan to run trains before fully securing everything in place. 

Just won't be getting any work done until maybe tomorrow. I get paid at work on quoted labor times, hard to do with little work due to the holiday and parts backorders, so I'm trying to get some of my training done since I get paid for that. Need another 6 hours to not lose out on a reasonable pay check next week. I have hobbies to finance.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Did some playing with my track plan after a trip to the eye doctor with the wife. Commerce, GA has a 4 lane main street split by a single rail line. Wanted to incorporate that somewhere. So this is the change I've made. I'll have some elevation changes to plan/figure out when laying the track, hard to visualize in anyrail even in 3d view. 

I don't know how necessary a programming track will be, but I've included one, since I'll have the left over track. It will be situated in the town and when not being used to program, serve as track for a caboose hotel. We were actually talking about that on the country ham's net last saturday. One of the guys was thinking of buying some old cars and a caboose for a house. 

Also, how is everyone wiring to their bus for track power? Last layout, I was using terminal blocks and fork connectors. I've seen use of wire taps on some youtube videos. What gauge wire are you guys using on the bus?


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So, I spent a lot of time playing with options on the layout. I ultimately decided to take the wye out as it gave the option for another industry. I also flipped the positions of the coal mine and power plant. The peninsula track work has also been modified. The yard was also shortened by about 9 inches on all legs since the trains I have will be between 15-18 cars with two locos. I'm less pleased with the storage track angle for the new location of the coal mine, but I'll be able to have a cliff face and hide the track going towards the bridge over the river. Programming track will wind up somewhere in the town, need to get a feel for things once my track gets here tomorrow. 









Here's a shot of the benchwork from the closet which will become my model assembly area after a put a bench up in there. My computer desk can go in the NE corner along the E wall with my racing sim under the peninsula. 










Another thing I discovered, the benchwork in front of me in this picture, along the south wall didn't go as planned. The south wall wound up significantly longer than my wife had originally measured. So hopefully things fit when I put it together over the coming days. Need to get some wire and foam this weekend as well.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

One problem I see.
When you have a train running CCW you can reverse to CW on the loop but
you have no way to turn the train back to CCW.

You can still have the wye just use 2 regular #6 turnouts instead of the the top two wye turnouts.


Magic


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Magic said:


> One problem I see.
> When you have a train running CCW you can reverse to CW on the loop but
> you have no way to turn the train back to CCW.
> 
> ...


I would have to back a CW running train into the reverse loop. Which should be fine. I was using 3 RH #6 turnouts for my wye. I only have one wye turn out. I just got the track I ordered today, I have some sawdust to clean up and then I can see how things fit on the benchwork, what pieces I have left over and maybe I can still have a wye using a LH, RH, and wye.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

The part I'm struggling with as I started to place track to figure out base material, is my yard. With the length of trains I'm planning to run, you can't easily get from the inner most to the outer most yard track without fouling the main line. I'll need to redesign the yard so the mainline is one side. I also realized I should have picked up some #4 turnouts for the yard to save space. Either that or I start completely over.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Taking a day off of work, unplanned. Got a few hundred yards from the house in my mustang, hear a pop, suddenly no drive. Turns out the bolts on the left axle to the diff, several backed out and the remaining ones snapped. Ford Performance axle is $1200, so no train stuff for me for a while.


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

usafajk324 said:


> ....Got a few hundred yards from the house in my mustang, hear a pop, suddenly no drive. Turns out the bolts on the left axle to the diff, several backed out and the remaining ones snapped....


Oh my! I have a 2007, what year is yours? Do I have to worry?


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

SF Gal said:


> Oh my! I have a 2007, what year is yours? Do I have to worry?


2016. You should be fine. The 2015 and newer with independent rear suspension probably encounter this from the design of the half shafts. I got my car used and the previous owner did some mods. The axles being one. But I think it was done the lazy way.

The splined ends of the axle are bolted to the cv joints and axle shaft. I think they just unbolted the stock and put in the Ford performance ones, no loctite and under torqued. Really need to pop the axle loose from the diff.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

usafajk324 said:


> I would have to back a CW running train into the reverse loop. Which should be fine. I was using 3 RH #6 turnouts for my wye. I only have one wye turn out. I just got the track I ordered today, I have some sawdust to clean up and then I can see how things fit on the benchwork, what pieces I have left over and maybe I can still have a wye using a LH, RH, and wye.


NAY, Nay, NAY! Even the full size RR doesn't like to back up complete trains, and model trains like it even less. That's the whole reason for reverse loops and Wyes. You might make the top of the wye a straight line east-west without the dip and put your industry in the center.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

here's a compact wye arrangement: Inverting the image may help it






make more sense. Click on image to enlarge.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I spent some time playing over the last few days with the layout, and fixing my car. I've arrived at this layout here and I think I'm happier with this. The yard on a turn makes for a difficult situation coupling cars, but uses less straight track for longer trains as, I think it was, @OilValleyRy suggested in another design I had. I've got the wye back in there. There are also a few more sidings for other industries as a result. The intermodal yard is near the railyard/part of it. I don't like the S but that's the only way I could make it work in AnyRail. I'd like to make a second siding near the town if I can but I'm just going to get this out on the benchwork and see what happens.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I like it!
Is it possible to have your double main use the outside curves at the lower left? As it is, the mainline has to take the tightest curve. Might be better running if you moved the yard inside. Just a suggestion. The yard would be a little smaller, but it's pretty large now.

I love that you put the wye back in. I think it's the statement piece of the layout. It just looks cool! 😎


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> I like it!
> Is it possible to have your double main use the outside curves at the lower left? As it is, the mainline has to take the tightest curve. Might be better running if you moved the yard inside. Just a suggestion. The yard would be a little smaller, but it's pretty large now.
> 
> I love that you put the wye back in. I think it's the statement piece of the layout. It just looks cool! 😎


I fixed it in actual practice. Wasn't sure how much track I had of certain types, but I knew I had a bunch of 9" and 11" radius I wasn't using. Main line is now 15" radius on the outside and 13 and change on the inner loop in that area.
I like the idea of yard on the inside, not having to reach over the main better though, but this way gets me the yard length I want. It may actually be longer than I want/need.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

JeffHurl said:


> I love that you put the wye back in. I think it's the statement piece of the layout. It just looks cool! 😎


Should also note the wye will be elevated relative to the inner loop, so it should very much so stand out. I just wish I could have designed a series of loops with a wye connecting them. Just don't have the space for it.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

That yard should prove to be lots of fun! Don’t forget that operationally it’s more like two yards, not one. So don’t worry about coupling/uncoupling on curves. Unit trains can use the full track of course. 
Shorter cuts are more likely to be uncoupled closer to the ladders. That is to say if you’re uncoupling 3 cars off an 18 car train, how often will they be the farthest cars from the loco versus the closest 3 cars? 
It has fun multi-operator possibilities too, a switcher at each ladder. 
With the town opposite, and remembering your compass is sideways, you have a yard north of the town, and one south of the town. So you could do some prototypical ops if you wanted. E.g. Amtrak going South during daylight hours, and Northbound after dusk.
You could make each yard a different company if you wanted as well. 
Or one company with Up/Down Yard associated with direction of travel. Or a Receiving yard and Departure yard, making the whole yard one assembly line kind of thing. One switcher crew breaks down trains and sorts them, the other assembles new trains (opposite ladder end). 
Kinda begs for family involvement.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> That yard should prove to be lots of fun! Don’t forget that operationally it’s more like two yards, not one. So don’t worry about coupling/uncoupling on curves. Unit trains can use the full track of course.
> Shorter cuts are more likely to be uncoupled closer to the ladders. That is to say if you’re uncoupling 3 cars off an 18 car train, how often will they be the farthest cars from the loco versus the closest 3 cars?
> It has fun multi-operator possibilities too, a switcher at each ladder.
> With the town opposite, and remembering your compass is sideways, you have a yard north of the town, and one south of the town. So you could do some prototypical ops if you wanted. E.g. Amtrak going South during daylight hours, and Northbound after dusk.
> ...


I'll certainly keep that in mind. Having them be two yards and maybe even two companies opens possibilities. I'd like to get some BNSF and maybe CP Rail locos. Trying to keep it prototypical in operating area, so I won't have CSX or NS on here. I think I've probably got more locomotives than I do cars to make trains for them. But it may mean I run two trains at a time, with power for moving cuts of cars or localized operations in other areas. I like the Amtrak suggestion, I did get some of their auto train auto racks with the intention of repainting them. 

I just wish I had more space! I tried to make modifications to have a peninsula that one main line splits off to for longer runs between areas, but couldn't do it without going down to 24 inch aisles, which is no good. Needing to put my desk and racing sim underneath really hampers my only other option for more space, which is two levels. A lower level around part of the room would be too low, and an upper level couldn't be more than about 4 inches up from the current planned height or I can't see it. 

My wife has no interest, other than new locomotive purchases (she wanted a blue locomotive, so UP1982-Missouri Pacific Heritage was purchased), and it being something to keep me busy. My dad might partake when visiting. Otherwise, it's just the two of us and our dogs, and I don't think they'll be of much help.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Trying to figure out the best way to go about cutting foam for each layout section. Do I 1:1 print the layout or, since some parts work better a different way in practice than the track plan, do I build the sections separate from the layout on foam, cut the foam to shape and have large layout chunks to put down on the benchwork?


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

We all want more space.

My construction approach has evolved with every layout built. I think that goes for everybody; making improvements each time. 
And we are all different. It’s entirely “to each their own”.
My new approach is to nor carve foam whatsoever. I use foam for 3 specific applications only now.
1: removable hills; terraced like a mayan pyramid, often only around the perimeter with hollow center, then filling/smoothing the slope edge with newspaper wads & plaster. No carving, no wasted material/cost, lighter, etc.
2: where major depressions will exist such as rivers. I still terrace, then fill the sloped river bank with dyed joint compound for waterproofing. 
3: removable structure foundations; ie laying a section of 24” x 30” gluing only the perimeter. Then using a knife to cut out an inner area making sure to cut in a carrot shape. That allows the structure base to lift out. Track atop would get gapped. The structure can be detailed on a workbench like a diorama, then dropped in place. The angled or carrot shape edges eases concern about support below.

FWIW to you and/or anyone else in the area of Menards stores; I saw they now sell smaller foam sheets. They are thinner, but saves cutting. They’re 1.5” thick not 2”, but I think they were 12”x48”. My location has them on an end cap along the molding/trim area facing the fencing/etc desk. Might be easier than a 4x8 for those who don’t have a pickup truck. 
I’m considering using those with half inch shims below.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I had planned on doing foam for just under track and structures. I like the foam because it gives me predetermined, even heights. I picked up a sheet of 2 inch, 1 inch, and 1/2 inch. So I can set sections of track at specific heights and then just need to worry about the incline or decline to it. The problem is I have the track laid on the benchwork now, I'll have to take off the sections, cut the foam to shape, put it back up and hope it all lines up when I eventually get to wiring. 

I'll use it for structure bases, but otherwise I'll be doing woven cardboard and plaster cloth for terrain. The hardest part for me though is I really don't know what structures I'm using for anything but the coal mine since I have that kit partially built. So I don't know how to plan for where a structure will be or what the terrain will do.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

OilValleyRy said:


> We all want more space.
> 
> My construction approach has evolved with every layout built. I think that goes for everybody; making improvements each time.
> And we are all different. It’s entirely “to each their own”.
> ...


What do you use to cut the foam? For sections small sections it's easy enough to mark it and cut with a saw. But when I need to notch something out and I have a large amount of track to move, I tried my hot wire cutter and man is it slow on XPS foam.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I used 2" foam, 1.5" foam and 1/2" foam. Most of my "build it" cuts were straight. For the most part, if I made a curved cut, it was to shape scenery, not to support track.

For 99% of my cuts I used a cheap utility knife. The plastic ones that have like a 6" blade in them that is scored so you can nip off the top and get a fresh point. I never broke a blade though. I used a straight edge, and cut about 1/2 way through then snapped it apart. The foam snaps pretty cleanly.

You can see how I used the knife to carve the hills here.









Then you can wad up paper to add more variations then cover it all in plaster cloth.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

For straight cuts, I've run some wide or even narrow pieces through my table saw. I'll probably stick with that for straight cuts and use my jig saw, remove track sections and trace them. 

I just didn't want to put foam under everything to give the option of ground below road bed. Like a gravel/rock filled depression the track gets run over. But also to not end up with that "track on a board" appearance. 

I still have more than half the layout to get foam under. Some parts I had planned for, I'm realizing I don't have ideal spacing of supports. But I've got 1/2 inch, 1 inch, and 2 inch. Planning for track heights, at various points, of 1 inch, 1 1/2 inches, 2 inches, and 3 inches. I'm hoping to have it roughly up this week and maybe start wiring to run trains this weekend.

The hard part is planning for structures not around the yard, since almost all of that area will have flat surface around it.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

The long blade is a bit bendy, which helps add contour to cuts.

Whatever you do, I would strongly advise against trying to cut an incline for your track. It will not end well. But you can use a long flat piece as an incline as long as you feather the joints to make a smooth transition. Trains don't like abrupt changes in grade.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I had planned on using a long strip as inclines, feathering the uphill end, and probably gluing shims or something on the downhill side. I'm hoping to at least have track power run, play with my new digitrax dcc set up, and see how I like the layout while I figure out how to tackle a larger layout. Thinking I'll take it in sections, get close to "finished" and then move on.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

For cuts following track, versus carving slopes, I’ve used a saber saw with a fine tooth blade at high speed. Not only does it cut through almost as though it’s not there, but the mess is more contained. It ended up being a small pile of powdery dust. None of those torn chunks as with a steak knife. You can do very sharp curves too, like a jigsaw puzzle.

For slopes etc, I used to start with a steak knife, followed by a SurFoam rasp which is intended for “sanding” foam. But it was way too messy in my opinion. So I changed my philosophy to “build up” rather than “cut down” material.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I've done the surform and a sander to make slopes before. It worked ok. I've also used a wire wheel, but only on styrofoam not xps foam, to make a mountain and my word is it a mess. That I did in my garage in LA and it took months to get rid of all the little white specks. Surform works better on styrofoam than xps foam IMO. Going to try the cardboard lattice and plaster cloth approach for most of my scenery, maybe use extra chunks of foam as a base and some rock forms like @JeffHurl did on his layout. Those came out great.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I went out to home depot tonight to pick up some 5mm plywood. $20 a sheet, not bad. I figured I'd need 4 with the current layout. Ripped a few into 2 feet wide and started laying them on the benchwork. Decided I want to go for just 2 foot benchwork all the way around instead of what I currently have set up. Easier to reach everything. Try to not have to reach over the mainlines. But while there I thought to pick up another 2 inch sheet of xps foam. It went from $40 when I got some a few weeks ago, to $60 a sheet.....needless to say I didn't buy more.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

I could throw in a LATE, LATE suggestion. Take the doors off of the closet. Hide it with a layout backdrop of your choosing. Access via duckunder. Did you say the height of the layout?


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

cid said:


> I could throw in a LATE, LATE suggestion. Take the doors off of the closet. Hide it with a layout backdrop of your choosing. Access via duckunder. Did you say the height of the layout?


So I'm actually in the other spare bedroom at this point, single door closet. Worked out better for working around the door into the room. Door is already off the closet with a duck under to the 5x5 closet that will be my model assembly space. Layout is at 52 inches to the top of benchwork, track will be at 54 inches on average. I'm working on a 2 foot deep shelf layout design. It's less interesting looking. But I can probably fix that.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

That sounds great!! Sorry, usa, I skipped over some of the discussion!


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

No worries. I'm kind of stuck in planning/track plan purgatory it feels like. I've come up with some good ideas but I end up not happy with them when I get them on the bench work in the room. I'd hoped to just be running trains this weekend but it might be Christmas before that happens the rate I'm going


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I didn't like the 4 foot deep section of the design I was working on. I liked having the wye, but it causes too much of an issue. I decided to keep it as shallow as I could. I've moved on to this design here. On the East end of the yard (north wall of the room), with the locomotive shop and fueling area, the lead that goes towards the edge of the layout will be to a turntable for more locomotive storage, might go to the first siding out the east yard. I haven't figured out what all the industries will be. The coal mine will be along the south side of the room, along with an auto yard. Off the south yard is going to be the intermodal yard. But I'm happy with this layout, easy to reach all parts of the layout.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Well, usa, I did like the wye... But, you could add a turntable...
One other feature I like is the double crossover. It allows you to set and forget that switch, allowing a single train to continuously traverse the inner and outer mains of the entire layout with no intervention. I like the continuous run capability...
Cid


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

cid said:


> Well, usa, I did like the wye... But, you could add a turntable...
> One other feature I like is the double crossover. It allows you to set and forget that switch, allowing a single train to continuously traverse the inner and outer mains of the entire layout with no intervention. I like the continuous run capability...
> Cid


I'd love to keep the wye, it just takes up too much space and makes the layout too deep to reach. I can barely reach the back of the 3 ft deep section on my tip toes. The double cross over is being used simply because I had to buy an additional right hand crossover and at $35, I didn't want to buy two. I had the double crossover already. But I could absolutely set it to thrown and just run from inner to outer or outer to inner.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

What's the best way to get feeders through the pink foam? Drilling makes a mess and makes the hole in the foam way larger than I need it to be. Cut squares out with some long utility blades?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I drilled a hole just slightly larger than the wire. It slides right through. I used solid core 22 gauge wire. Super easy, but I did have to special order some 12" long drill bits. I had about 6-8 inches of foam to fish it through.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

Deepest foam I'll have to get through is 3 inches, plus 1/5" plywood (yup 1/5" because it was $20/sheet vs $40 for 1/4"). I guess if I plan to plaster cloth over cardboard lattice for other terrain, I can cover any misdrilled holes with some plaster cloth. I'm using the Kato unijoiners, I've got a few dozen of them. Something like 60, though I'm not using all of them. But I believe they're 22 gauge stranded.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Sorry... I didn't realize you were using Kato leads. That makes the hole a LOT bigger unless you want to do some splices. That, what I would do.


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## usafajk324 (Jul 31, 2019)

I'm cutting the kato plugs off and crimping on fork connectors to terminal blocks. Going to put 2-4 feeders per connector to save space on the terminal blocks and number of fork connectors. But still going with a 3/8 inch hole. Need to bring a different bit home from work though. The one I've got is very dull. Wood bit that may or may not have been used on metal at some point.


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