# How many power feeders??



## davefr (Oct 22, 2020)

I'm starting to build the Woodlands Grand Valley layout kit (HO). I estimate it's about 60'+ of track consisting of around 65 Atlas code 83 track segments. Some guys claim that all they've ever done is one power feeder and never had a problem. On the opposite extreme are guys that claim every single track segments should be fed with power. Is there a consensus on a common sense approach to number of feeders? (I plan to start with DC and transition to DCC later on)

TIA


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## Aard D'Vaark (Aug 1, 2019)

usual installation involves feeders about every six feet or so ....
there's no 'hard or fast' rule to this though ..


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

In general, I solder six feet of track together and use one feeder for each six foot section. My turnouts have there own feeders and are never solder to any track section.

LeRoy


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## beepjuice (Sep 17, 2014)

Tou might want to consider starting with DCC. It's much easier with wiring, etc.


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## davefr (Oct 22, 2020)

Homeless by Choice said:


> In general, I solder six feet of track together and use one feeder for each six foot section. My turnouts have there own feeders and are never solder to any track section.
> 
> LeRoy


Do you solder the Atlas connectors directly to the rails?


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

davefr said:


> Do you solder the Atlas connectors directly to the rails?


Yes directly to the rails and I attach my feeders to the rail joiners. I just slide rail joiners with a very small amount of space (0.030") between each six foot section to allow the track to move slightly is it wants to.

LeRoy


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Joiners tend to fail over time electrically. So, to get around the eventuality, hobbyists have taken to thin, ideally short, feeders, often several of them.

You want robust voltage all along your rail system. The way to minimize work and materials is to solder one pair of feeders to the joint of every OTHER pair of joiners. This has positive power going bi-directionally to the next joints on either side. Schematically it looks like this:

[x= soldered joint, o= sliding joiner offering only mechanical alignment]

======x============o==============x==============o======

This makes the logic easier to see for visual people. Each x must run power two ways, but maybe only to the sliding joints on either side. After those joints, there’s another soldered joint midway.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Like HBC, I Solder 6 feet together but use a PC tie to actually make the feed as it hides everything. The joints between 6' section I leave un soldered to all for a little expansion and contraction.


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## beepjuice (Sep 17, 2014)

For a combo joiner/ feeder, I've soldered wires directly to the bottom of rail joiners. I just make a bunch at a time, using just 2 colors for pos and neg. I put them about every other track connection so every piece will have power, kinda like what Messenteria does. Just attach the feeders to a bus wire.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

📌
No Lie: My last layout, a 35' x 5.5' tapering to 2' to 90 deg. turn to 8'x2' yard/interchange HO switchback was controlled by 1 NCE PowerCab, it's 2 leads to the track, running sometimes 2-3 trains at same time, had no feeders a n y w h e r e !
Build your layout..If it runs fine without feeders, then.............


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## davefr (Oct 22, 2020)

Thanks everyone. I think for my layout I'll solder joiners to whatever length of rail I'm comfortable working with (maybe 4-5') and feed each of these sections. Then connect these sections with unsoldered feeders. I assume I can feed each section wherever I want since voltage drop will be negligible and the goal is reliable electrical connections. (solder vs mechanical). It sound like a little extra work during the build may save big headaches/rework later on.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm more in Telltale's school. Don't over engineer the darn thing. It's a hellish lot of soldering, especially using sectional track (when these guys say "section" they mean a 3' long piece of flex track) and a lot of opportunities to melt ties and inflict other damage. I'd recommend a pair of feeders every 10' or so. It really isn't that hard to add another set if you do have trouble.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Thanks CTV*....But even the 10' feeder advice is not needed until the owner keeps finding a stall out area.. Even then it may be a blessing because he or she found the fish plate there was under, not engulfing the opposing rail and this fix was all that was needed...Capeesh ?
Later for feeders if ya doesn't need em... (I.E. at least on medium to small size MRRs). *M*


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## beepjuice (Sep 17, 2014)

Sometimes I just slide the joiner back or forth and the connection adjusts itself.


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

davefr said:


> Thanks everyone. I think for my layout I'll solder joiners to whatever length of rail I'm comfortable working with (maybe 4-5') and feed each of these sections. Then connect these sections with unsoldered feeders. I assume I can feed each section wherever I want since voltage drop will be negligible and the goal is reliable electrical connections. (solder vs mechanical). It sound like a little extra work during the build may save big headaches/rework later on.


* It sound like a little extra work during the build may save big headaches/rework later on. *No one could have said it better.

LeRoy


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

beepjuice said:


> Sometimes I just slide the joiner back or forth and the connection adjusts itself.


Exactly !!


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I have yet to slide a solder to restore power. If you don’t mind the interruptions, enjoy.


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## davefr (Oct 22, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> I'm more in Telltale's school. Don't over engineer the darn thing. It's a hellish lot of soldering, especially using sectional track (when these guys say "section" they mean a 3' long piece of flex track) and a lot of opportunities to melt ties and inflict other damage. I'd recommend a pair of feeders every 10' or so. It really isn't that hard to add another set if you do have trouble.


Are Atlas track joiners reliable over time? It does look very tough to solder them on without damaging the ties or having solder creep onto the rail. I have some scrap track to practice with.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

NOTHING is 100% reliable over time. No matter what you do some corrosion will set in and gunk things up, a soldered joint will kink due to expansion, etc. It's all a tradeoff between the amount of work you do initially, and what you MAY have to do later if things go awry. 

Now, if you're asking whether JUST using an unsoldered Atlas joiner is a reliable way to join track, I would say no, it isn't. Practice on some scrap pieces of track. Use a pencil tip and a 35-45W iron and very fine solder (1/16") and it can be done

It's tedious to solder 4 pieces of Snaptrack (six joints) to get the same continuity you get from one continuous piece of flex track (no soldering required). Plus, when soldering flex track, it's common practice to remove a couple of ties at each end so that you're not soldering directly over the ties.


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## beepjuice (Sep 17, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> when soldering flex track, it's common practice to remove a couple of ties at each end so that you're not soldering directly over the ties.


Then you can just add ties (from old track) back in the gaps when you're done.


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## Dave NYC 1962 (Oct 17, 2020)

Every section might be fine for you old hands, but as a noobie I found it pretty hard to solder feeders to my N scale without melting ties. I settled for about 8 sets of power feeds for around 60 feet of mainline. 

I also learned that ME turnouts look and run better than atlas, but the extra soldering is a definite negative to me.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Soldering 3' rail together is even easier when your using CV tie strips and ME rail!


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## davefr (Oct 22, 2020)

Here's my layout so far. I was planning to use the Atlas Track Pack made for the Grand Valley kit but now I'm wondering if flex track might be a better option. (or a combination of both). Does this type of layout lend itself to flex or sectional in your opinion? It seems like flex would involve a lot of custom fitting around curves but sectional pieces involve more joiners. I really want to do this right first time!!.


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## Dave NYC 1962 (Oct 17, 2020)

davefr said:


> Here's my layout so far. I was planning to use the Atlas Track Pack made for the Grand Valley kit but now I'm wondering if flex track might be a better option. (or a combination of both). Does this type of layout lend itself to flex or sectional in your opinion? It seems like flex would involve a lot of custom fitting around curves but sectional pieces involve more joiners. I really want to do this right first time!!.
> View attachment 548850


I found it a lot dicier to get the sub roadbed precisely lined up for sectional track. The flextrack is a lot more forgiving. It isn’t as hard to cut the flex track to length as you might think. Good railnippers cut right through the rails, they are soft metal.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

beepjuice said:


> Then you can just add ties (from old track) back in the gaps when you're done.


I just nip off the spike head detail that goes over the web of the rail and slide the ones that I cut off back under the track.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Dave NYC 1962 said:


> I found it a lot dicier to get the sub roadbed precisely lined up for sectional track. The flextrack is a lot more forgiving. It isn’t as hard to cut the flex track to length as you might think. Good railnippers cut right through the rails, they are soft metal.


I agree. The only issue is that the turnouts in that design are probably Atlas Snap Switches that incorporate a section of 18" curve. Unfortunately, they're pretty low quality, but you may not have much choice. You could PROBABLY squeeze in a better quality turnout (which have straight legs vice curved ones) using flex track to fix the geometry, but I can't be 100% sure of that without testing it.


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## DennisLB (Dec 27, 2018)

I used only one power feeder. No problem with power all around. I do have problems running steam engines though. They can't negotiate the tight curves and derail often. Engines with six drivers are OK sometimes. Engines with eight drivers, forget it.


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## glenng6 (Mar 12, 2011)

I will not say whether soldering, or not soldering, joiners is correct. However, I built my DC layout 36 years ago, it has approximately 120' of track and no joiners are soldered. I have never had an electrical issue because of a joiner. I had one issue with the point of a turnout and that is it. When installed new, I used a pair of needle nose pliers to compress the joiners tightly against the rails (being careful not to warp/bend the rail. That being said, I am about to add an 18' x 4' peninsula extension and I am considering soldering some joiners on the big curve at the end of the peninsula. My point is, that there is no one answer that is correct, in all situations. My layout is in a climate controlled space and is the same temperature, within 3-5 degrees all year, and no humidity to speak of. If a layout is in a garage, or some non-climate controlled area, I am sure the MMV. Glenn


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DennisLB said:


> I used only one power feeder. No problem with power all around. I do have problems running steam engines though. They can't negotiate the tight curves and derail often. Engines with six drivers are OK sometimes. Engines with eight drivers, forget it.
> 
> View attachment 548910
> View attachment 548910


Yes, but that's a small layout, and no part of it is very far from the feeders.

My son's 8'x8' also runs just fine on a single pair of 22AWG feeders.

It's not a question of "will it", but rather "will it consistently and over the long haul". Unless your layout is big enough to experience voltage drop, more feeders is for insurance, not performance.

The performance of longer equipment is related only to the tight curves, and has nothing to do with the number of feeders involved.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

glenng6 said:


> I will not say whether soldering, or not soldering, joiners is correct. However, I built my DC layout 36 years ago, it has approximately 120' of track and no joiners are soldered. I have never had an electrical issue because of a joiner. I had one issue with the point of a turnout and that is it. When installed new, I used a pair of needle nose pliers to compress the joiners tightly against the rails (being careful not to warp/bend the rail. That being said, I am about to add an 18' x 4' peninsula extension and I am considering soldering some joiners on the big curve at the end of the peninsula. My point is, that there is no one answer that is correct, in all situations. My layout is in a climate controlled space and is the same temperature, within 3-5 degrees all year, and no humidity to speak of. If a layout is in a garage, or some non-climate controlled area, I am sure the MMV. Glenn


In this case, the climate controlled factor is dominant. No expansion / contraction, no humidity for corrosion that's all-important.

"No one correct answer for all situations" is just a corollary to the Golden Rule: "Your Layout, Your Rules". In this case, though, the situation is so controlled that it really doesn't serve as an alternative for those who are unable to create such ideal conditions in their own layout space.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

davefr said:


> I'm starting to build the Woodlands Grand Valley layout kit (HO). I estimate it's about 60'+ of track consisting of around 65 Atlas code 83 track segments. Some guys claim that all they've ever done is one power feeder and never had a problem. On the opposite extreme are guys that claim every single track segments should be fed with power. Is there a consensus on a common sense approach to number of feeders? (I plan to start with DC and transition to DCC later on)
> 
> TIA


dave;

The others have already answered your question about feeders. I'm going to point out a few other things for you to consider, hopefully before you get very far along.

The Atlas track plans have been the first layout of many a model railroader. Including myself. In my opinion, based on later experience, they may not necessarily be the best though.
Understand first that these Atlas track plans were not generated, or published, solely to help "newbies" build a first layout. Certainly they do that, but the primary reason they exist is to advertise, and sell, Atlas track & electrical components. Like any other form of advertising, they are not going to point out any downside to their own products, or praise any competitor's products.
The only real advantages of building a layout based on one of the Atlas plans are simplicity and convenience. That's fine if you are willing to invest a lot of time and money in building a "learning layout" with the idea of later scraping all, or most, of it when you replace it with a better layout. That gets real expensive, and can be frustrating too. Ultimately it depends on your own attitude and expectations. If you feel that the convenience of building a pre-packaged plan with all Atlas "Snap Track' components outweighs the following disadvantages, then go right ahead and build & enjoy it.

The disadvantages are:

1) The use of sectional "snap track."
Those rigid curve pieces, short straight sections, and especially the "Snap Switch" turnouts, called for, are things you are very likely to " outgrow" rather quickly, as you gain some experience. The many joints between all those short sections are each a possible poor electrical connection waiting to happen.
The "Snap Switch" turnouts themselves have a long history of causing derailments, physically wearing out some of their parts, and melting the coils in their attached twin-coil switch machines. There are fixes available to deal with most of these design faults, but there are other brands of turnouts that don't have faults in the first place.
Three foot pieces of flex track have fewer rail joints, and don't restrict you to any fixed radius curves.

2) The Atlas electrical controls.
These include the "blue button" control that comes packaged with the "Snap Switch" turnout, and things like Atlas "selectors" & "connectors." These controls work, but they are not particularly well made, can, and do fail, and they are bulky & typically laid out in a somewhat confusing array compared to the diagramed control panel, with toggle switches and push buttons, that typically replaces them later.

3) The very track-heavy, crowded, Atlas track plans themselves.
These plans bear no resemblance to the trackage of a real railroad. There is track everywhere, and little room for anything else. These plans are designed to cram as much Atlas track onto a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood as possible. They are designed to sell product, not to build a realistic representation of a real railroad.

Again, it's simply a choice for you to make. There is nothing really "wrong" about building from one of these plans. Especially if you are personally OK with the cost of learning from, and later scrapping this type of layout.

Good Luck & Have Fun with whatever you choose to build.

Traction Fan 🙂


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