# Gilbert American Flyer 499 New Haven



## haggy38

Hi guys,

A neighbor offers me the complete set Gilbert American Flyer 499 New Haven 1957, as O and Standard gauge collector, don't know how much can i offer him, i need some lights. The set is complete and in pristine condition. help need it



Gustavo


----------



## flyernut

There should be 6 cars in the set... They will be....985,958,911,920,921, and a 935..The set # should be...20345. I think, and I'm no expert, but $250-$400 would be fair, considering the set is not complete. Are there boxes included??Transformer,etc?? Set box??? Just my opinion..


----------



## haggy38

flyernut said:


> There should be 6 cars in the set... They will be....985,958,911,920,921, and a 935..The set # should be...20345. I think, and I'm no expert, but $250-$400 would be fair, considering the set is not complete. Are there boxes included??Transformer,etc?? Set box??? Just my opinion..


All tha cars are included, transformer, etc. the engine is the 499 new haven, all the boxes are included as well.


Gustavo


----------



## AmFlyer

A complete 20345 set as a grade 8 including the set box with the 20345 stamped number legible on the label is worth in excess of $1,000.


----------



## flyernut

haggy38 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> A neighbor offers me the complete set Gilbert American Flyer 499 New Haven 1957, as O and Standard gauge collector, don't know how much can i offer him, i need some lights. The set is complete and in pristine condition. help need it
> 
> 
> 
> Gustavo
> 
> View attachment 74402
> 
> 
> View attachment 74378
> 
> 
> View attachment 74386
> 
> 
> View attachment 74394
> 
> 
> View attachment 74370


How many cars are included, boxes, tracks, transformer,etc. We need the whole picture,please. My latest price guide says, in excellent condition, all boxes, etc, about $1500 US, but that's if everything is complete. That's why I low-balled the price at first. Just the engine and a few cars are what I was considering.


----------



## haggy38

flyernut said:


> How many cars are included, boxes, tracks, transformer,etc. We need the whole picture,please. My latest price guide says, in excellent condition, all boxes, etc, about $1500 US, but that's if everything is complete. That's why I low-balled the price at first. Just the engine and a few cars are what I was considering.



There's 6 cars plus 2 more, two stations, tracks(no rust), transformer, switches, derailing control, engine 499, everything!! It has the original instructions and according the catalog the set is complete. All the boxes are there in good condition. The set its been storage for 40 years.

The owner sold me this set for $150

I will post pictures this weekend. My consideration is C8, C9



Gustavo


----------



## flyernut

haggy38 said:


> There's 6 cars plus 2 more, two stations, tracks(no rust), transformer, switches, derailing control, engine 499, everything!! It has the original instructions and according the catalog the set is complete. All the boxes are there in good condition. The set its been storage for 40 years.
> 
> The owner sold me this set for $150
> 
> I will post pictures this weekend. My consideration is C8, C9
> 
> 
> 
> Gustavo


Well, that's the buy of the century..Congrats!!:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## haggy38

flyernut said:


> Well, that's the buy of the century..Congrats!!:smilie_daumenpos:


Thanks, the consideration here is the owner has not interest what so ever for the set, he actually is going the get rid off the set or put in a trash can, so now is in good hands.



Gustavo


----------



## cole226

congrats,
found a good home.


----------



## haggy38

Hi guys,

One last question, what's special about this set, why the high value, actually as expensive as standard gauge sets which are 100 years old. 




Gustavo


----------



## flyernut

Probably because of a low production rate???


----------



## haggy38

flyernut said:


> Probably because of a low production rate???


I really don't know, I saw on eBay selling just the engine for $256!! 



Gustavo


----------



## longle

Somebody can correct me if I'm off the beam but I believe the #499 was only sold in 1956 and 1957. The engine number was changed to #21573 in 1958. In 1956 it's offered in the catalog as an engine only. In 1957 it's sold in the Mainline Freight set #20345. Interestingly it's also listed in the 1957 catalog as a stand alone engine but even though the image is of a #499 the catalog lists it as engine #21571. From what I understand there was also a #21570 but both the 21570 and 21571 numbers only appear stamped on the box, not the actual loco. 

Now if you really want to drive yourself nuts trying to figure out Gilbert check out the 1958 catalog pages 20-21. The engine is illustrated as #21573 on the left but as #499 on the right. Gotta luv AF's consistent inconsistence.


----------



## AmFlyer

Gilbert used up inventory of 3 digit cars in sets so some of the 1958 sets came with a few 3 digit cars and some had all 5 digit. There is a premium value for boxed sets with some of the rare 5 digit cars. As far as I know all 20455 New Haven Mainliner sets came with the 21573 New Haven Electric. The 20345 sets had the 499. The catalog illustrations are not always accurate. 
There is an entire behind the scenes story of how the new 5 digit system was designed to allow cost tracking. A single item had 3 different inventory numbers but only one was stamped on the item. The 3 numbers were to track included in a set with an individual box, included in a set without an individual box and separate sale.


----------



## longle

AmFlyer said:


> The catalog illustrations are not always accurate.


There's an under-statement! 

At one time I started documenting all the inaccuracies but eventually threw in the towel. It's not just the illustrations either, that can be inaccurate.


----------



## haggy38

Well today I will post the set pictures and decipher all the secrets, unfortunately the set box is in bad shape, but the engine, cars and accessories are intact.



Gustavo


----------



## longle

Original boxes, no matter how rough, are worth something, especially if the set itself is intact.


----------



## AmFlyer

We look forward to the pictures. Most all of the premium 1957 and 1958 sets command high prices today. 
When I was a young boy I paid no attention to the numbers in catalogs, the pictures were more important. Now that I am more knowledgable about Gilbert trains the inaccuracies are fun to study but would be way too much work for me to find and document. I am very impressed by a few of the Gilbert collectors who are walking encyclopedias of all the variations.


----------



## haggy38

Hi guys,

the pictures are here, the set # 20345, all the is included as catalog description, plus more....




Gustavo


----------



## haggy38

More pictures.......


Gustavo


----------



## haggy38

And more.....


----------



## longle

That's in really nice condition. I see the loco has the holes below the doors which were apparently for metal steps that were never issued. It seems to me that metal steps hanging down would have interferred with the trucks on curves.


----------



## haggy38

longle said:


> That's in really nice condition. I see the loco has the holes below the doors which were apparently for metal steps that were never issued. It seems to me that metal steps hanging down would have interferred with the trucks on curves.


Probably, the engine is in good condition, just a little bit of cleaning, bulb replacement and lubrication, I will try to post a video.

Theres a ton of accessories, switches, tracks, etc. I feel very lucky !!!


Gustavo


----------



## AmFlyer

The engine and cars are appear to be in condition 8. The boxes are rough. This is a very nice set , I hope the engine runs well. The 499 has the 4 position reverse unit and the built in diesel horn. Holes were present under the doors of the 499 but steps were never mounted.


----------



## flyernut

Nice set.. Not to pick, but it appears one of the couplers is broken.


----------



## haggy38

flyernut said:


> Nice set.. Not to pick, but it appears one of the couplers is broken.



Nice eye, one of the engine couplers is bad, spare part is on its way.


----------



## haggy38

Hi guys,


I need experts help, this is some type of capacitor, but not sure if I can replace it with regular electrolytic 100 16v.



Gustavo


----------



## flyernut

haggy38 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> I need experts help, this is some type of capacitor, but not sure if I can replace it with regular electrolytic 100 16v.
> 
> 
> 
> Gustavo
> 
> View attachment 75706
> 
> 
> View attachment 75698


Now you lost me Gustavo. Your best bet here, and I don't mean any dis-respect to others here, is to contact GunrunnerJohn. He is the man! Maybe he'll be watching this thread and pipe in.


----------



## haggy38

flyernut said:


> Now you lost me Gustavo. Your best bet here, and I don't mean any dis-respect to others here, is to contact GunrunnerJohn. He is the man! Maybe he'll be watching this thread and pipe in.



Don't worry Flyernut, I will contact GunrunnerJohn. This cap seems to work with the electronic horn engine, the loco runs fine without it but I want the horn functioning.



Gustavo


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

No worries, a 100mf 16V cap would be fine there. You'll find they're about 10% the size as well, that's a very old capacitor, and huge by today's standards.


----------



## flyernut

gunrunnerjohn said:


> No worries, a 100mf 16V cap would be fine there. You'll find they're about 10% the size as well, that's a very old capacitor, and huge by today's standards.


Thank you for chiming in John..This is such a great forum, and it's guys like you that make it so...:appl:


----------



## haggy38

Thanks John,


great forum!!!




Gustavo


----------



## haggy38

Well I replace the cap with 100mfd 16V, I can hear a faint noise from the speaker, the cap gets extremely hot, so I put there 200uf 25V, the sound improves, but is very low. Any one has this type on diesel engine and know how should sound?




Gustavo


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The cap getting hot sounds suspicious, are you sure the previous one was original and properly rated? 16V seemed a bit low. I'm not familiar with that rig, so I can't say what's proper.


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

I have to imagine it's like any other air chime whistle Gilbert produced. They all had the capacitor and a resistor in the circuit with the speaker. There was mention of items getting hot, but thought it was the resistor. I'll check around for more info...


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Pretty much has to be the resistor. If the cap is getting hot, something is seriously wrong!


----------



## longle

I've never had a 499 apart but all the other diesel horns I've had open had a resistor involved. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see a resistor in the above photos.

Here's some instructions, if that helps.


----------



## haggy38

Well guys with the new cap 200uf 25v, the engine now makes an indistinct sound, like a electricity diesel one, it's really nice, the new cap is just warmer.




Gustavo


----------



## haggy38

Hi guys,

Finally the shaky video of the 499 New Haven, enjoy....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15X_9nMkA0Q

Gustavo


----------



## Nuttin But Flyer

Nice....


----------



## AmFlyer

That is really nice. I am impressed that there was no flickering of the caboose light throughout the video. You must have everything perfectly clean.


----------



## haggy38

The set was in pretty good shape, the engine needs a little bit of cleaning and that's it. This set was storage for 35 years, so I was lucky.


Gustavo


----------



## flyernut

Nice set....:appl:


----------

