# Help with American Flyer 583-a wiring



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

For some reason I can't get my crane to reverse. Only one direction. It has a two button control. You will note on the attached photo, the 3 wires from the crane to the control are not marked as to color. I have tried every combination but it only rotates in one direction. Suggestions:dunno:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

On mine, the colors are scratched in the bottom of the switch. R,Y, G, here's a picture.






There is a detailed discussion about the 583-A herehttps://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=150362 Hope this helps Fred.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I am sure you know. Red button is to run motor in one direction and green button
is to run motor opposite direction. Check bottom of button box and make sure no
wires are touching each other. What does the other button do when you push it?

If motor runs in same direction with either button, you have wires touching.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

cramden said:


> On mine, the colors are scratched in the bottom of the switch. R,Y, G, here's a picture.
> View attachment 461122
> There is a detailed discussion about the 583-A herehttps://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=150362 Hope this helps Fred.


Cramden, this is the two button controller that I have. ignore the wires as I have changed them. Normally I am assuming that the black (base) wire is not switched but it is only bridged at the controller. My old and feeble mind is now having more difficulty thinking ahead and/or complex problems.:smilie_daumenneg: I will keep on going forward and damn the torpedoes! Aren't these 60 years old toys great? And with several different parts, including reproduced ones, associated to the same AF Accessory part numbers!


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Okay, you're switch might be a repro so its different than mine. Your yellow wire is good and so is the red where they are attached, the black wire is wrong. That terminal needs a wire going to the crane to reverse the direction. I don't see a spot for the base wire to go so it most likely goes straight to the crane. If you look at my switch there are 2 black wires soldered to a post, one goes to the base post and the other goes to the crane. Your switch eliminates that junction. Red goes to the crane, green or whatever color you have goes to the crane, and black from the crane goes to the base post. Yellow will go from the switch to the 15 volt post. Hopefully you have 3 wires coming out of the crane, red,green, and black. Let me know. You live in Utah, they ain't got no stinkin torpedoes in Utah!!!


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I can always count on your expert advice Cramden! Thanks again!:thumbsup:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Did you get it working correctly?


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

cramden said:


> Did you get it working correctly?


No, I have checked and tried everything two or three times but still only one way. It is 96 degrees in my garage now so I will give up and run away in order to fight another day!:laugh:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

For some reason the crane only runs in one direction. The controller is good. There are 3 wires only coming from the motor. They all look original and untouched. If I connect the black wire to Base and red or green to 15v (yellow) on the transformer it still only runs in one direction. All the two button controller does is to switch the 15v (yellow) to either green or red. The controller prove good. 
Question? What makes the motor reverse? I suppose that I will have to disassemble everything. Last resort. There must be something that reverses the motor.:dunno:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

By observation ,your controller is not hooked up the way explained it
The yellow wire is switching between the red and black.

If yellow and black are from the transformer then the black should go to the motor base, So now ,are the red and green correct? The motor should have two fields oppositely wound so the field changes polarity but the armature does not.

Both coils must be connected up in the same way for the direction not to change. 

A motor picture may help.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

This is the discussion about repairing a 583-A with the same problem as yours, don't know why it didn't link in my previous post#2.https://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=150362 It's on page 5 of the S forums, about half way down. I'll post the pics again as well as my hand drawn diagram from mine that I disassembled to trace the wires. It uses a double wound field to reverse direction, thus 3 wires from the field instead of the normal 2. Link worked this time.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Here's the diagram and 3 pics of the motor.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Thanks again Cramden! I must have a bad winding off of the green wire. I have it apart now and I have checked and wiggled all the wires but still only one direction off the red wire. I suppose that I will be shelling out more money for a field coil!hwell:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I'm not sure what the resistance values are for each side of the field, maybe AmFlyer can help there. You can probably get it rewound from someone who does that or look for another if indeed it's bad. I think the single tap double wound fields aren't as common as the normal fields used in the steamers. You could also try what AmFlyer stated in the other discussion and use a reverse unit to change the current flow to get the crane to reverse direction.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Can't seem to be able in finding a double field coil for a 583a crane. I tried several of the old on line standbys but nada. Any suggestions? If it weren't for a center tap coil, I would try to rewind it myself.:thumbsdown:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Can't seem to be able in finding a double field coil for a 583a crane. I tried several of the old on line standbys but nada. Any suggestions? If it weren't for a center tap coil, I would try to rewind it myself.:thumbsdown:


I would see if AmFlyer checks in. I believe he has a book that lists all the motors and their specs. That way you could verify if the field is bad before buying another one. Also, does it look as if anyone might have soldered any wires recently? If they didn't scrape the enamel off first there won't be current flow at the joint. Looked at the old post and found the specs that AmFlyer posted. Here are the specs.






I hope he doesn't mind.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, your crane is way past my pay grade, I am confused about something.
You say motor runs in same direction no matter what you do. I could see motor not running at all with one button or the other. But you say it runs in same direction no matter which button. It just has to be not wired correctly. Both buttons should not make it run in same direction.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I will call around tomorrow but if I can't find on then I may rewire the brushes to be fed on the good side of the field and install a dtdp switch on the controller to reverse the power to the brushes. About as clear as mud but I think that it may work. Last choice although!


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I will call around tomorrow but if I can't find on then I may rewire the brushes to be fed on the good side of the field and install a dtdp switch on the controller to reverse the power to the brushes. About as clear as mud but I think that it may work. Last choice although!


Check my previous post Fred, I remembered AmFlyer posting a pic. of the specs.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

mopac said:


> Broke, your crane is way past my pay grade, I am confused about something.
> You say motor runs in same direction no matter what you do. I could see motor not running at all with one button or the other. But you say it runs in same direction no matter which button. It just has to be not wired correctly. Both buttons should not make it run in same direction.


All the button does is switch the 15 volts from the red to the green wires. If one side of the field is bad the current will only flow one way thru the motor no matter which wire you jump(red or green) with the 15 volt wire.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Broke, your crane is way past my pay grade, I am confused about something.
> You say motor runs in same direction no matter what you do. I could see motor not running at all with one button or the other. But you say it runs in same direction no matter which button. It just has to be not wired correctly. Both buttons should not make it run in same direction.


I misstated that. It only ran on the red wire and red button. I opened up the controller and switched sides and button and got promptly confused. Not too hard now a days.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Thanks again Cramden! I must have a bad winding off of the green wire. I have it apart now and I have checked and wiggled all the wires but still only one direction off the red wire. I suppose that I will be shelling out more money for a field coil!hwell:


I took a closer look and found a broken green coil wire just before it enters the windings.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

But wouldn't it not run at all going through a bad field?.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I took a closer look and found a broken green coil wire just before it enters the windings.


Glad you found it, hope you have enough to scrape and solder a longer wire to it. You might be able to unwind it one turn if that's possible to give yourself a little more wire to work with.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

mopac said:


> But wouldn't it not run at all going through a bad field?.


It's two fields, although it looks like a single wound field. That's why there are three wires instead of two. I'm not sure why Broke said he could jump both wires and still get only one direction.:dunno:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

cramden said:


> It's two fields, although it looks like a single wound field. That's why there are three wires instead of two. I'm not sure why Broke said he could jump both wires and still get only one direction.:dunno:


I was swapping wires and colors and who knows what just trying to get it to work. It is not hard to confuse me now a days:laugh::laugh::laugh:.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Sounds like you may be on to something Broke finding that broken wire. Does it go
to top of windings on field or to the bottom?


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Sounds like you may be on to something Broke finding that broken wire. Does it go
> to top of windings on field or to the bottom?


bottom and hard to get at. That is why I failed to see it at first.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I figured that it was to the bottom. You are going to have to rewind that sucker.
If you remember I rewound field on my 282 and it runs great. Since I could not
wind as neat as Gilbert did, I cut at least10 feet of wire because if I put it all back on the armature was hitting the wire. Did you rewind your coil that had a broken wire. I
had another coil but the one I rewound works fine so I still have a spare. You can rewind your coil on the crane but 3 wires might be difficult. You will have to see how it went on when you unwind it. With cutting 10 feet of wire off my 282 coil and it works, I don't think the coils have to be an exact science.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

It might not be broken too far into the coil and you'll only have to unwind a it few turns to get to the break. Think positive!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I think you have this figured out by finding the broken field wire. I am on a 3 week driving trip, return home tomorrow. I do not have any additional info to what is posted.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

cramden said:


> This is the discussion about repairing a 583-A with the same problem as yours, don't no why it didn't link in my previous post#2.https://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=150362 It's on page 5 of the S forums, about half way down. I'll post the pics again as well as my hand drawn diagram from mine that I disassembled to trace the wires. It uses a double wound field to reverse direction, thus 3 wires from the field instead of the normal 2. Link worked this time.


Thanks again Cramden! I went back to your earlier post and discovered not only did I have a broken field wire but I had reversed the field assembly and I had soldered the field winding's wrong. Your diagram really helped! :thumbsup:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Thanks again Cramden! I went back to your earlier post and discovered not only did I have a broken field wire but I had reversed the field assembly and I had soldered the field winding's wrong. Your diagram really helped! :thumbsup:


Have you managed to get it running in both directions?


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

cramden said:


> Have you managed to get it running in both directions?


yes thanks again


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

:appl::appl::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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