# Atlas turnouts for the lose plz help



## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

Okay so 6 months into a simple 4x8 layout i cant get my engine to run through a turnout without shorting the whole system. i dont get it. this kind of stuff was so simple when i was a kid and now? oh geese. not to mention my BLI hudson doesnt track worth crap with 18" turns. sometimes its like some parts want to go straight and some dont, then short happens. sometimes it just shorts out when everything goes straight. i will make a video if its needed. i just want to make it work for my son.


500 bucks on a board and got nothing to show for it. If anyone could help me with the atlas turnouts, and not say get rid of them, i would appreciate it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Pics and details of the loco (including underside) and turnout might help.

You don't have a reverse loop with left and right rails criss-crossing back on each other in way of a turnout, do you?

TJ


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

hudson seems to be larger steamer. i'd think 18 is just to tight for it...

post diagram of your layout. post on how you power your layout. what makes you say "short"? why do you think this is not the more common poor pickup? (asking since your post is very light on description)


atlas turnouts are POS. sometimes they can be improved to point they almost work. since you don't want to hear "get rid of them" i will not say that. however I'm not going to touch those ever again. even if i happen to get some free ones they will never be used on my layout. as the saying goes "i'm not rich enough to by cheap stuff"


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

whenever the loco crosses the turnout it actually shuts the engine down and my powercab. power is connected correctly, code 100 atlas manual turnouts which i bought machines for just havent gotten that far into wiring. ill post a few pics. no hating, i havent got anything done as far as landscaping because this POS wont run. The engine is very "tippy" forward to back. its a 4-6-4. hope this is enough detail. and yes the nail polish was a sad attempt at troubleshooting the issue. i thought just after the frog the wheel may have been contacting both sides, apparently i was wrong. 350 dollar engine... driving me crazy heres a link to it http://www.broadway-limited.com/bli-2020nycj1ehudson4-6-45344romanletteringparagon2sounddcdccho-1.aspx


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

As per our discussion in private, I think two things could be wrong. and both may contribute to the problem. I didn't see a reverse loop on your layout though I can be blind at times, short on memory and all of the other things attributed to old age.....

One, the power to the switches(rails) could be reversed.

Second, the engine is defective, the "tippy-ness" shouldn't be. I'd return the engine for exchange. Sounds as if the frame could be bent or warped.

Bob


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## full maxx (Nov 8, 2009)

do you have a track gauge to check everything with


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Just ruling things out ...

I see you're locos elec pickups are on the tender wheels. Each pair of wheels (l/r on one axle) is polarized, i.e., the left wheel is electrically insulated from the right. Did you ever remove one pair of wheels from a truck for cleaning and/or service, then reinstall it inadvertently flip-flopped? That would cause an immediate polarity short ... unless, perhaps, that wheel set pickup shoe is loose, and only touching the axle when the tender navigates through a switch.

Just a thought ...

TJ


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

don't worry about scenery. it will come in due time.


ouch. what i said about Atlas turnouts was referring to their customline series. what you have is even worse - a snap switch . useless and can not be improved upon. i know that's not what you want to hear but i warmly suggest to not use these. nothing can be done with them. on the bright side i only see only 4 turnouts, meaning its will not be bank breaking to change to peco brand products for example . the difference will be "ahhhhh..."



tjcruiser said:


> Just ruling things out ...
> 
> I see you're locos elec pickups are on the tender wheels. Each pair of wheels (l/r on one axle) is polarized, i.e., the left wheel is electrically insulated from the right. Did you ever remove one pair of wheels from a truck for cleaning and/or service, then reinstall it inadvertently flip-flopped? That would cause an immediate polarity short ... unless, perhaps, that wheel set pickup shoe is loose, and only touching the axle when the tender navigates through a switch.
> 
> ...


TJ, his new engine shorts out on a turnout frog


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## igmuska (Nov 21, 2009)

I've run into your problem on my Atlas code 83 layout. To solve it, I took a fine needle nose and squeezed tight the rail joiners. Second, I also found that running at a certain speed leaving or entering or crossing the turnouts would also stop my locomotive. Looking at your layout, I am wondering whether you are using any plastic insulating joiners to separate the major sections across the turnouts. Perhaps, without the track powered, you could pull your loco through the curves to see if you have binding problems caused by your turnouts.
For X-MAS, we got my father-in-law the same BLI NYC Hudson model you have except the road number. We also got him the Kato HO Basic Unitrack Track Set having 22" radius curves, powered by MRC 1370 DC and BLI DCMaster for sound. Even with that, I found that stopping on the curves means that it needs a slight push to getting it going again or the loco would slightly wobble through as even 22" radius curves are just barely enough to prevent binding.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

igmuska said:


> I've run into your problem on my Atlas code 83 layout. To solve it, I took a fine needle nose and squeezed tight the rail joiners. Second, I also found that running at a certain speed leaving or entering or crossing the turnouts would also stop my locomotive. Looking at your layout, I am wondering whether you are using any plastic insulating joiners to separate the major sections across the turnouts.
> ...


what problem you run into with your atlas c83 turnout that was solved by squeezing joiners. i see no reverse loops so insulated joiners are not needed , should work fine without them.





OP, now that it was cleared your engine requires 22 minimum, can it be that it jumps the rail at frog and shorts against the other one? those snaps are 18R in theory, but their irregularity in geometry makes them even less


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## dozer (Jan 2, 2010)

I feel your pain about the Atlas turnouts. I unfortunately discovered their downfalls after having 11 in my system. I spent about 10 hours filing and sanding and now have very good working switches. They just took a little time is all. If I was to do it over again, I'd still buy the same ones, but spend a little time fixing them before installing them.

I tend to agree that you're having a locomotive issue. What I didn't catch is if you've tried other loco's over the switches or not. I'd try a GP diesel or an 0-4-0 or something small like that and see how it goes.


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

maybe someone could explain what to do with this switches to make them work. maybe a picture with an arrow or something. im now broke after paying for my wedding and transmission just exploded on the highway in the wifes car, so i need to make these work. wish there was a LHS closer than 45 mins away..


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

on customline switches you could have sharpened the point rails and smooth/ground off the protruding tabs on stock and closure rails. that can prevent flanges catching up and jumping over the rails almost every time. to deep of a gap gap in the frog cannot be resolved in satisfactory manner. at that point i had enough and just said screw it and threw the atlas out.

you however have a snap switch, so nothing can be done i'm afraid, the failing geometry you will not be able to fix.

as for LHS, there is online stores with much better prices. and ebay



dozer said:


> I spent about 10 hours filing and sanding and now have very good working switches. ...


you should look at other switches to see what "really good" means. imagine having a frog that wheels don't deep into but cross like a prototype instead preventing any occasional derail. IMHO 4$ extra per switch is little price to pay


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## dozer (Jan 2, 2010)

tankist said:


> you should look at other switches to see what "really good" means. imagine having a frog that wheels don't deep into but cross like a prototype instead preventing any occasional derail. IMHO 4$ extra per switch is little price to pay



So true. I unfortunately couldn't find "good" switches for anything less than $30 each. That's over $300 just for the switches for my layout. Buying in bulk, I was able to get my customline switches for $12 each from my lhs. 

I do agree with you though, there is a HUGE difference between what is a "good" switch and an "awesome" switch.


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

so im screwed and wasted my money on a bunch of trash. yay. i cant affoard 120 bucks for turnouts thats proposterous. could someone show me the problem with these switches?


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

had you used some shorter B-B diesels i'd say put your snaps on siding and make sure to drive extra slow through them. but if you want to run your hudson you will need broader turnout no matter the brand. nothing can be done to snap switch - it needs to be #4 at least or idealy #6 and more (that will not fit your layout unless cut down)

new pecos can be found as low as 20$, althoguh 22-24 is more common. the first few i purchased new but then i lucked out and got bunch of pre-used ones below 20. money can be tight, i know, but worst comes to worst i'm sure you could buy switch or 2 a month. if this makes you feel better i wasted bunch of money on trash too, and i'm sure i'm not the only one 

to ADD: pecos have centering spring which means nothing more needed. atlas however require at least ground throw or their manual thingy which is ugly. so difference in price is not as bad


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## dozer (Jan 2, 2010)

sinluien said:


> so im screwed and wasted my money on a bunch of trash. yay. i cant affoard 120 bucks for turnouts thats proposterous. could someone show me the problem with these switches?


 Well, try not to freak out too bad. Atlas are known for their problems, but if you do your research and take your time you can get those switches to work just fine for a home layout. Remember, some peoples expectations are so high, and so out of touch that they often overshadow reality, so don't let it put a black cloud on your day.

There's the old adage "those can't,teach, those who can, do". 

Cheers, and don't give up. 

Mike.


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

i somehow made the one i was having issues with work... no idea how, lots of nail polish later, but now the issue of my leading truck on the hudson, those 2 pictures show how much play there is. when its sitting level it almost looks like the back 2 wheels of the front truck are the only ones actually touching. sorry about the shitty camera btw


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I had an issue where the loco would intermittently die after a switch. It turned out that the section of track after the switch was to far from the power leads. The reason it appeared to be intermittent was that only train drawing more amps would stall. Small one would not have an issue. To solve the issue I added an additional set o power leads after the switch, fixed the issue. On my layout the switch was not the issue but the distance from the power lead was. The switch was just the place the issue appeared.

You might want to buy an old Athern blue box of EBay. $30 for one that looks good, <$15 for a cosmetically challenged one. It is great to have as a reliable test tool to rule out your loco as the issue when a problem occurs. 

I use both Atlas snap switches and Atlas #6 turn outs. My main lines use the #6 switches since they are a more gradual radius. I have found the snaps are actually slightly less than 18" radius. These I have used for sidings that are entered at low speed. Also the snaps are primarily used by Diesels with 2 axles per truck or steamers with 4 drivers or less, a 2-6-2 and 0-6-0 are exceptions to this, both are not the norm for their size.


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

so im not screwed. i think im going to purchase another engine for testing purposes specifically. the lead truck is not right tho. working on getting ahold of bli, never seen such a craptastic design


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

sinluien said:


> so im not screwed. i think im going to purchase another engine for testing purposes specifically. the lead truck is not right tho. working on getting ahold of bli, never seen such a craptastic design


Find one that both the front and rear trucks are powered. If only the rear ones are the loco will be more likely to derail on any switch. Athern blue boxes are good for the price. Bachman Plus locos also are decent for the price.


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## nsr_civic (Jun 21, 2010)

I've had great luck on ebay with buying engines. i got a bachmann 8wd gp18 for 12$ and an athern blue box gp9 for 18$ well within even the tightest budgets. just make sure to read the description!


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## dozer (Jan 2, 2010)

sinluien said:


> so im not screwed. i think im going to purchase another engine for testing purposes specifically. the lead truck is not right tho. working on getting ahold of bli, never seen such a craptastic design


 And that's not typical of BLI, especially their steam engines. BLI's are usually very nice engines. Like ALL mass produced items though, there's always an item or two that slips by QC.


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

I bought, and eventually sold a BLI Berkshire. Piece of crap. One fine looking engine but it wouldn't run the way my Rivarossi's did. So, now all of my Berkshires are Rivarossi except for two Orientals(brass) that I literally stole on eBay that were being sold for parts. Seems the seller didn't know how to use a soldering iron to fix the power leads.

BLI does have quality issues on some engines. The steam engines look good, but a few of my friends' engines have had performance issues. One even had bent/warped frame like I mentioned earlier. It is not all that uncommon, for any manufacturer, to have truck frames that are warped. Especially those made of plastic. Easy fix.

I have run my Berkshires, even my Heavy Mountains, on an 18"r with little problems. Just can't run them wide open. Rather, I have to nurse them around the bend. Just thankful my minimum radius on the main is a 24"r.

Bob


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

geese apparently i need a bigger house... okay its missing a < shaped copper thing thats supposed to push the truck down, i found it in the box and well.... i dont see that ummm helping. so anyone up for giving me a mod idea to force down the front truck?


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

dozer said:


> Remember, some peoples expectations are so high, and so out of touch that they often overshadow reality, so don't let it put a black cloud on your day.
> 
> There's the old adage "those can't,teach, those who can, do".


for a moment it seemed as if you implying that "i can't". i guess that might be because you weren't around during discussion on my snap switch debuckle about a year ago (i had 14 of them). perhaps to high, 99.9% of derail free transitions through turnout at any speed/direction is my expectation and atlas snap can not provide that. 
some people however prefer to hear only what they want to hear (the old adage about messenger and bad news) and quite accept mediocrity for a result. oh well


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## dozer (Jan 2, 2010)

tankist said:


> for a moment it seemed as if you implying that "i can't". i guess that might be because you weren't around during discussion on my snap switch debuckle about a year ago (i had 14 of them). perhaps to high, 99.9% of derail free transitions through turnout at any speed/direction is my expectation and atlas snap can not provide that.
> some people however prefer to hear only what they want to hear (the old adage about messenger and bad news) and quite accept mediocrity for a result. oh well


 Don't let your diaper get too full, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that post. Medicracy is a judgement, when related to a "hobby", so to be a harsh judge is biased and often unwanted.

So, Mr. Thread starter, I'm not sure of the clip you're asking about. Do you have the parts list that came with your engine?


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

dozer said:


> Don't let your diaper get too full, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that post. Medicracy is a judgement, when related to a "hobby", so to be a harsh judge is biased and often unwanted.


i guess i was imagining things and you were having conversation with someone else in this thread then. whatev. but regardless, start choosing more appropriate expressions, you not talking with your buddy down the street.

harsh? biased? yes. I had first hand experience with the subj product and it was awefull. (IMO, atlas deserves class-action suit for putting out defective by design product to the market). after modification i found it still below acceptable, and as such i have nothing good to say about it. when asked about this topic i will be replying exactly what i think.
and as far as criticism in general: comments such as "oh nice!" have very little value, substantiated criticism on the other hand does. but here is an idea - if you not ready to accept judgment , don't ask for opinion.


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## Rocky Mountian (May 17, 2010)

Must be the hot weather> I know it's a 100 here in Okla.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I would go along with the idea that maybe the turnout is wired backwards or something. I would also buy that the turnout might be too small for the locomotive. I have used Atlas turnouts only (I have about 14 on my layout). They are all the manual ones (I don't know anything about the snap ones). The manual ones have never given me any trouble. I have been able to pass six-axle locos through the #4's without any problem (usually go slower though).

I hope you are able to troubleshoot it and get the problem figured out...good luck!

Chad


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## igmuska (Nov 21, 2009)

I still think the problem is loose track, and not so much the turnout. If you examine his photo of his track layout closely, it is sitting on the board without any road bed and probably not even tacked down.
I've had this problem with my current layout, i.e., when I run my train after polishing the track with a bright boy, I watch for slow downs; if I see one, I squish the joiner with a needle nose plier. I think I use too much pressure using the bright boy but N/S c83 oxides quickly, reminding me of a mold or fungus sticking to the rail.


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

trust me the track is all secure and all the joints are all soldered as well. im personally just not a fan of roadbed. amazing how many things my dremel has come in handy for. i know its not easy to see, but its kind of impossible to use flex track without "tacking" it. aside from the switches its all flex track. learned that real fast lol. still no ideas for my lead truck? think weighting it down would help?


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

If nothing else, weighting it down might give you an idea if that is the problem or not. I wish I could offer more help, but you're getting lots of good advice that I cannot improve on. Incidentally, aquarium store used to sell little strips of lead to hold the plants to the bottom of the tank. Since attaching weight will be awkward, those little strips would be very helpful and the cost would be nominal.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

tankist said:


> comments such as "oh nice!" have very little value


Respectively, I disagree with you there. Yes, an "oh nice!" doesn't add much technical content to the forum. But for the person posting a thread on how they tackled some specific project or aspect of our hobby, an "atta' boy" or "thumbs up" pat on the back from others can bring a big smile to their face, encourage them to delve further into their skills, and advance the hobby (albeit in small steps) futher.

I think the forum would be a more bland, less enticing destination if we all shyed away from offering each other a well-deserved "job well done" comment here and there.

Regards,

TJ


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## igmuska (Nov 21, 2009)

When I bought my first pair of snap switches, one of them just wouldn't completely close. I'd run my SD45 through it, it would just stop. After examining the turnout closely, I saw that the plastic tab between the points wasn't centered; one of the point was closer to the tab than the other. I disassembled it, bending the metal part of the point to make a stronger connection with the plastic tab separating the points. Now doing that only fixed part of the problem, my SD45 would make it through the turnout only 50% of the time. After restraining myself from completely throwing out the turnout, I looked at the snap switch control on the turnout, I opened it up and immediately saw that the tiny wires in it were tangled up, like the manufacturer had a bad morning and just stuffed them in there, not caring whether the wires were crossed or not. After gently separating the wires, I re-assembled the control and press the remote control button and was met with a very loud resounding snap.

I keep thinking the OP's problem lies in that turnout's wiring or the points being out of gauge. If the turnout isn't closing completely, then the weight of his locomotive would open it as it is crossing, ending with his locomotive immediately losing power right on the turnout. I think it leans more towards faulty wiring than it does towards out of gauge points as the latter would derail the locomotive more often than an opening switch.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I agree with ig's assessment...a turnout MUST swing ALL THE WAY in either direction, or the locomotive going through it WILL have all kinds of trouble. It is for this reason that I throw my turnouts manually...I want them to be reliable, and I know that I will be able to make them work like they should by throwing them by hand.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Very concise, clear diagnosis, igmuska. I don't know if that will clear up the problem, but I love reading a clear analysis and correction post!


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

igmuska said:


> When I bought my first pair of snap switches ...


IGM, unless i'm missing something (you rearranging ties perhaps), the turnout that i see in your ballasting tutorial is not a snap-switch. which one is it?

PS, in a way it doesn't even look like atlas at all, but the switch machine is a typical one...


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## igmuska (Nov 21, 2009)

I know the following snap switch is vintage but it does provide us with a reference model.
The point of the arrow shows the way they provided electrical connections between the rails; they didn't solder the connection, instead they used a brass ring(?).

If someone used those as a tacking points for securing the track to their plywood; removing the turnout would tear out that critical electrical connection. The stamped rings could also be heavily oxidized to the point of impeding electrical flow through them. This is the first point I'd like to make.

As you can see, I cleaned this turnout, but still have to clean the points; I couldn't get my bright boy under there nor could I reach it with my toothbrush. I was thinking that a cotton swab loaded with Brasso would work. My point is that if I am having difficulty cleaning these critical electrical connections between the points and stock rails, I must assume that the OP probably never considered cleaning them.

I am also wondering whether the OP bought his track new or at some garage sale like my SO did during one of her adventures.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

any poor electrical contact can be easily remedied with jumper wires soldered underneath(as the matter of fact i did this to my peco just in case, to prevent any possible problems), so this is no concern. still , what you have pictured here is not the switch you show ballasted.










btw, just for the hek of it, a show case of snap-switch "consistency " in manufacturing...
everything is by lined with the ruler and angle, yet no matter what it just doesn't line up without dremel cut-off wheel and file (not counting only ~80% of successful transitions of even 4 axle locos..)


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## igmuska (Nov 21, 2009)

tankist said:


> any poor electrical contact can be easily remedied with jumper wires soldered underneath(as the matter of fact i did this to my peco just in case, to prevent any possible problems), so this is no concern. still , what you have pictured here is not the switch you show ballasted.
> 
> btw, just for the hek of it, a show case of snap-switch "consistency " in manufacturing...
> everything is by lined with the ruler and angle, yet no matter what it just doesn't line up without dremel cut-off wheel and file (not counting only ~80% of successful transitions of even 4 axle locos..)


Excellent double crossover! Are you planning on cutting some 3mm to 5mm fitters to rid yourself of those loud gaps? I had to do that as I couldn't follow the track plan as specified in the booklet. I cut a 3mm fitter and a 5mm fitter, seating them in joiner. I couldn't tolerate the sound the gap made nor did I enjoy seeing my train do the bump effect over those gaps.

As for the OP's problem, hopefully he understands that this hobby is extremely fun, aside from his current and future technical difficulties sure to arise.

I keep wondering whether his Atlas track is the new type or the old type as I show in the photo? We can only presume so much from a grainy long distance photo.


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

to be honest i have no idea. i just bought all my track this year. still fiddling away. i just wish i was having fun with my son instead of working like i do 8 hours a day.


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## derfberger (Jul 23, 2010)

being that is a 4 x 8 layout those inside curves have to be less than 22

I have the same problem with my CSX desel. Runs O K on 22 and jumps when it enters a 18.

I'm sticking with 22 and 20" R.

a transition might help


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## derfberger (Jul 23, 2010)

[QUOTE=i Are you planning on cutting some 3mm to 5mm fitters to rid yourself of those loud gaps? I had to do that as I couldn't follow the track plan as specified in the booklet. I cut a 3mm fitter and a 5mm fitter, seating them in joiner. I couldn't tolerate the sound the gap made nor did I enjoy seeing my train do the bump effect over those gaps.

what's a fitter. i have a cross over and maybe i should modify

thanks


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## igmuska (Nov 21, 2009)

derfberger said:


> what's a fitter. i have a cross over and maybe i should modify
> thanks


A fitter is just a small piece of rail cut with a Xuron rail cutter. You then can seat the fitter in the joiner to rid your track of those unsightly and loud gaps as in the "clickety click, clickety click, clunk, clickety click" sounds as your train crosses rail joiners with a cavernous gap.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A dab of epoxy is the common man way. You already have electrical connection you just need support.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Always the practical answer from T-Man. *grins*


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## sinluien (Jan 10, 2010)

i just like my dremel and soldering iron personally... so BLI said eat me you broke it. so i said fine how much for your stupid 1/4 inch piece of copper? they said 80 dollars for repair and shipping. what the hell?!?!


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

i'm sure something can be rigged macgyver style. but i have no experience with your exact model ...


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I agree...for $80, I would find a way to fix it myself. Sometimes the most unethical fixes really work well!

Chad


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Just for the record...can you tell me what BLI stands for? It's nice to know what companies stand by their product as well as you described.


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

Reckers said:


> Just for the record...can you tell me what BLI stands for? It's nice to know what companies stand by their product as well as you described.


Broadway Limited Imports: http://www.broadway-limited.com/


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