# Power Q



## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

How big does a layout have to be before I NEED more power taps for the sections farther from the transformer? I have a UP Gold Coast freight set that I have set up on a piece of plywood under my 7yr olds bed. Powered by a Lionel RW 110 watt transformer. The loco and lighted caboose seem to indicate that I have a "weak" section of track as far as power is concerned. Sometimes they won't even power up. At first I thought I'd have to crack 'em open and resolder the power connections, however, I cleaned the track today with a track eraser, and it runs better. However it still seems like the loco requires a lot more power than say the loco form the Polar Express RTR set, or even our BN SD60 6-18261. The SD 60 runs like a bat out hell on that layout, even before cleaning. Should I still consider opening the loco? I have tried this loco on a CW80 transformer and it does the same thing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, "need" is a subjective thing. I've run a carpet layout with a 50 foot loop with one drop using Fastrack. OTOH, it's common to require several drops on a 4x8 layout.

If you have a number of locomotives that run well on the layout, and one that runs poorly, first step would be to see why the one is problematic.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

That's my thought as well. I already downloaded all the supplements, and as this loco is a 1983 vintage, and I've heard of quality issues during that era, it stands to reason that I need to open it up. Of course I haven't tried any of dads PW locos on that layout yet, but I expect them to run fine, since most of them do(or did before he moved) run fine. 

I'll try and open er up after x-mas.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That would be my first step. A cleaning and lube of the motor and gears is top of the list.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

You didn't say what kind of track or how large the layout is. 4x8? If your track is clean and tight you should be able to run with two lockons. Postwar locomotives need more juice than modern DC motor engines. Use 18 gage or larger wire between the power connections to minimize voltage drops.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Your loco should run better than you have described.

I've had luck lately with poor running locos by doing the following:

Remove the armature and clean all the old grease out of the gears. In some of my locos, the grease was hard. I used contact cleaner. I oiled the gears and axles.

Clean the armtures using a pencil eraser. Make them shine.

Check the brushes. One of my locos had badly worn brushes. I filed them flat and notice an immediate improvement. A new set of brushes showed even more improvement.

Clean the wheels. Clean track won't help if the wheels are dirty.

Good luck.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

I've decided to open the loco in question, it is a UP Diesel(details and pics later) from 1983 gold coast set. How do I find it in the supplements so I can service it?

Thanks


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The service literature for your locomotive is in supplement 1, pages 63 and 64 of the pdf.

Larry


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Is it actually called supplement #1? I know I downloaded all of them and even saved them to my tablet, but I can't find it atm...


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Here is the literature for your loco.

Larry


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Thanks, I'll have to go hunting for my downloaded copy, I knew I had it, just can't find right now when I want to work on the loco...


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Found the download, it's called "Lionel Parts Lists and Diagrams 1970-1986". It just didn't make it to the tablet for some reason.

I also have the Hard bound book that covers everything up to 1966. I assume that either there is no info on the 4 missing years, or that Lionel had not made anything during that time? I'm not totally caught up on my Lionel history so forgive my ignorance.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The standard repair manual such as the Greenberg reprint go up to 1969. Lionel has supplements #1 to #47 on their website to 2004. The first supplement 1-9 is what you seem to have. There are others to download if you want them.

Larry


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Looked at loco today, went to recreate issue, and of course I cleaned the track and rollers. Loco runs, but requires about 12 volts(as measured with volt meter) to get rolling. Even more in reverse. 15 volts seems to be the sweet spot for this loco. I have no frame of reference as to whether or not this is normal for an MPC era loco or not. The only other locos I have to compare to are a Polar Express set(on loan from dad since 2 x-mases ago, hopefully permanently), a BSA anniversary train set, and a Burlington Northern SD60MAC with Railsounds. All three require very little power to get up and rolling but, then again they oldest of those(the SD60MAC) is still 16yrs newer than the Gold Coast set.

I bought the BSA set in 2010/2011 new, dad bought Polar Express when it came out IIRC. I bought the SD60MAC, and the Gold Coast set both used at local shows, and after I opened both once I got them home I discovered that they had essentially 0 hours on them.

As for my hard copy book it is _Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains_ by K-line. It is a reprint dated 1982. It specifically states that covers everything from 1930s thru 1966. I have downloaded all of the electronic documents from Lionels website that I can download(the ones linked to in the sticky thread). I now finally have them all organized on my back up HDD, and on my tablet and PC. 


Now to go and fix my youngest sons 3620 searchlight car, light is very dim when on the track with the loco, and if you move the car around the light goes out. It also buzzes really loudly(I know its the car because I had it on the track by itself at one point).


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

AC motors require more to get them rolling, and I suspect your locomotive would benefit from some good old fashioned _*preventative maintenance*_.

A proper lube, cleaning the commutator and brushes (replace if necessary), and I suspect you'll have much better performance. They still won't match the can motored stuff as far as starting voltage, but 12-15 volts is extreme.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

I thought that might be the case John. What recommendations on lube and cleaning solutions? Is the Lionel branded lube good enough? I doubt I can use the same electrical parts cleaner on these that I do my cars... Could the massive amount of power being required by the loco cause poor performance from the searchlight car, or the lights to be dim in the caboose? If I can get this all ironed out I think the train will get run more often


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The extra power will certainly cause issues with other stuff on the tracks.

I use plain motor oil and Lucas Red-n-Tacky for gears. I also use Deoxit-D5 on the pickup rollers to aid in conductivity.

If this hasn't been run for many years, I'd probably do the full deal and pull the armature of the motor and clean and replace the lube. The old Lionel grease tends to turn to sludge over the years, and it can greatly add to the current required to run.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The motor in your older locomotive is the universal AC/DC motor, and they are known to need more voltage to start and run than the newer DC 'can' motors. This is normal. All older locomotives will need more voltage than the newer ones do.

The K-Line service manual is not quite as up to date as the Greenberg manual is. There are a few items missing in the K-Line manual that are in the Greenberg manual, thus the missing few years.

Larry


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

All good advice, electrical cleaner thats safe for plastic is a ok. Or use alcohol. The search light car could probably use a cleaning too. Wheels and pu roller. Use a green scotch brite pad. ( also good on the communicator plate). Check the wires too. The lights do flicker a bit. There is a fix but thats above my pay grade.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For the searchlight car, you can power the bulb with DC and use a large capacitor under the car, but it's a lot of work.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

I powered up the loco this morning(it's stored along the wall, so I need to run it to get it out where I can reach), and it took a large amount of power to start, and get rolling. Was able to turn power down some and keep it going. Lots of sparks, then I powered it down and swore I heard a loud pop. Opened loco to clean/grease it and found no old crusty grease(at least not a ton, not sure how much there should be). Lubed it with the Lionel oiler tube(the clear one 2927-5) and put it back together. Everything moved nicely, and seemed fine. Put it back on tracks and it won't power up. The light on the transformer(which never came on in the past) came on brightly, and the loco made a small amount of noise but no lights or motion. The caboose wouldn't even light up. Tried on another track with modern CW transformer(that came with BSA 2010 Anny set) and the lights in the buildings(different layout in other sons room) dimmed, and loco would not move. The light on this transformer blinked a bit. 

Either I borked something when I was lubing it, or I really did hear a loud pop the first time I ran it this morning, and that was something electrical that went bye-bye. I suppose I should start a new thread for the diagnosis of this loco now eh...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sounds like you need to fix something.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

*Where do I start-or should I just take it in...*

Some of you may have seen my power question thread in the O gauge forum. The loco in question had been running, but with a high amount of power required. I opened 'er up to clean and regrease, and didn't find much old grease to remove. So I lubed it up and now she won't power up at all. No lights, and some buzzing from inside, but nothing else. Right before I pulled it off the layout I ran it just long enough to get it somewhere that I could reach. I thought I heard a loud pop right as I powered it down.

I'm working on an SD40 from the Lionel 1983 Gold Coast set. I have a diagram for it, but nothing that shows me how power flows inside the unit. I'm a machinist by trade, and have only ever worked on household wiring, and automotive circuits...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

milehighxr said:


> Some of you may have seen my power question thread in the O gauge forum. The loco in question had been running, but with a high amount of power required. I opened 'er up to clean and regrease, and didn't find much old grease to remove. So I lubed it up and now she won't power up at all. No lights, and some buzzing from inside, but nothing else. Right before I pulled it off the layout I ran it just long enough to get it somewhere that I could reach. I thought I heard a loud pop right as I powered it down.
> 
> I'm working on an SD40 from the Lionel 1983 Gold Coast set. I have a diagram for it, but nothing that shows me how power flows inside the unit. I'm a machinist by trade, and have only ever worked on household wiring, and automotive circuits...


Why didn't you just continue in your other thread?:dunno:
That way all the info is in one spot.

Now I have to go and search to see what kind of locomotive you're talking about.hwell:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

From reading your other thread it sounds like you have a wire (or something) shorting out?

Did you check the wiring real good. Check the one that goes down to the pickup rollers real good too.

So I don't have to go and search your other thread again, what locomotive is it?

This one? UP Gold Coast freight set.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I merged the threads, no need to start a new one...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lets start , I have know clue what loco you have. First do the wheels turn? Could the communicator and or armature be too tight? Do you have any pictures? It does have an armature, right not a can motor? I dont know too much about the newer lionel stuff.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Thanks John, wasn't sure if a new thread was warranted or not. Most other forums I'm on want this sorta thing separated.



gunrunnerjohn said:


> I merged the threads, no need to start a new one...


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Everything moved fairly well after I got done lubing it however I did notice that it wasn't ultra smooth. Seemed like there was a "hitch", or rough spot where it would get tight and catch. Not on anything I could see though. No it does not have a can motor, I dunno when Lionel started using those. Wiring looked great when I put it back together, will check again. There are 2 circuit boards inside, one for the horn, and the other for the E-unit according to my diagram. Diagram linked here http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37445&d=1407449116, courtesy of another member. 



sjm9911 said:


> Lets start , I have know clue what loco you have. First do the wheels turn? Could the communicator and or armature be too tight? Do you have any pictures? It does have an armature, right not a can motor? I dont know too much about the newer lionel stuff.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

As promised photos of the loco I am trying to fix(56k beware:laugh:





I can't easily expose the connection behind this tape. I'll try harder laterer if needed.






I'm not really sure where to begin looking for shorts or open circuits. If I try to move the front pair of wheels(the axle closest to the snow plow) everything moves fairly well, including the commutator(I hope that's right term for the thing that spins ans has all kind of wire wrapped neatly around it). If I try to go in the opposite direction there seems to be more effort required. If I try the rear most set on the motor truck nothing happens, or seems to require a ton of effort. I can't see any visual damage to the wires, or connections.

All images were taken with my Nikon D7100, and 18-55mm AF lens, set for JPEGs at max resolution, and file size. I've only had the camera a short time, so I'm still playing with it


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That piece is the armature, the commutator is the shiny ( supposed to be shiny) piece on top. The brushes ride on it.

Did you look real good at the roller pickup wires? The rollers are the things that ride on the center rail and pickup the power.

Did you unwrap the wires that has what looks like tape on them and look?

Have you cleaned the wheels and rollers?


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Wheels and rollers looked really clean, I'll try and open the wires that are taped, but the first time it seemed like I might make things worse rather than better. Roller pick up wires look good, but without knowing where I should have continuity, and where I shouldn't I'm just stabbing in the dark...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't see why the wires are just taped?
I would think a wire screw type connector would be better?
One of these, you ever use one? Just wrap all the wires together and screw it on it is a tight connection. I add a piece of electrical tape after I twist it tight, too but you don't really need to.









I think I found your set? Is this it?
The Lionel number for the set is 6-1361, I am trying to find service pictures/manual for your locomotive.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You have magnatraction on that loco, check up underneath in the wheels and gears. The magnatraction acts like a magnet. Make sure you didn't suck up any stray metal up in there.

Have you ever used steel wool to try to clean the track?
That is a no-no, as pieces of it will get sucked up into the gears by the magnetism and slow the motor down.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I abhor wire nuts in model train applications. They're bulky and I find many of them in the bottom with the bare wires hanging out when I open them up! :thumbsdown:


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## golfermd (Apr 19, 2013)

Concur with you gunner. I use butt connectors wherever possible.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Butt connector?

Are they, those white small plugs, that you find on older phone batteries?

Wire nuts do work better on solid wire. With small wires it is easy to solder them up.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I abhor wire nuts in model train applications. They're bulky and I find many of them in the bottom with the bare wires hanging out when I open them up! :thumbsdown:


They are good if you use them right, plus they are not that big. Though I don't need it that is why I add a piece of electrical tape too. Plus if you have to get it apart to work on something all you have to do is unscrew it. 



golfermd said:


> Concur with you gunner. I use butt connectors wherever possible.


Butt connectors are good, but I have seen them come apart too. They are only as good as the person who puts them together. Plus when you go to work on them you need to cut and strip the wire again to reconnect. Do that so many times then you have to add new wire.



T-Man said:


> Butt connector?
> 
> Are they, those white small plugs, that you find on older phone batteries?
> 
> Wire nuts do work better on solid wire. With small wires it is easy to solder them up.


His might be soldered, maybe there is a wire nut?
Butt connectors T-man, maybe you go by a different name?










I wonder what is under the tape? Where is the OP?:dunno:

I doubt if that is his problem, but it is easy to check and he does have it apart, might as well look. 
Like John said, if there is a wire nut maybe something came loose? :smokin:


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Haven't had much chance to look at it today, I played in the wood shop, after service project. Yesterday was consumed with Assistant Scoutmaster training. 

Big Ed,
yes that's my set, I have used wire nuts, I've done probably about 12 or so ceiling fans in my short life:laugh: I also have used butt splice connectors, and scotch locks(I loathe scotch locks, use em as absolute last resort). I think I can get that set of wires opened tomorrow. 

I have never, nor will ever use steel wool on my tracks. If was even to use scotch brite I'd give the track a real good bath, and then hit it with compressed air when I got done. I know all about the magnetraction locos and why steel wool is bad news.

This loco is pretty clean everywhere, I don''t think it was even tested at it's original purchase in 1983-1984. It looked like it had never been ran, or if it had it has very low hours on it.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

Update,

I broke down about labor day and finally just took it into Tims Toy trains in Louisville. He has a guy that does all his repairs. I finally called on friday and it had been repaired, lubed, and works great now. Only cost me $20.00 for everything they did. 

Now I just have to find a few cars, or locos in his shop that I can't live without, oh yeah, and coins to buy em with:laugh:


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