# Ludicrous prices



## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

ExactRail is running a _Friday-only "sale"_...
Magor 4948 Big John covered hoppers -- for the super-duper price of $39.95 each... (MSRP = $62.95).

Good grief! 
Not only is the MSRP totally out of whack, but $39.95 is highway robbery as well, and has been their advertised price for most of the year.

Do they think we're that stupid?

Don't answer that!


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

There is a problem in the hobby and people won't admit it.

Direct sales DO NOT BRING IN NEW PEOPLE IN ANY HOBBY.

Less distributors = more direct sales = less hobby shop.

Also I was doing some research and no other hobby has roughly doubled prices in under 10 years, just us morons here........

Hobbies are something people work with their hands with, spend time on. I think looking past the tactile part will hurt us all in the end going forward.

You lose that connection, how are you bringing new people in? I'm also starting to lean to the side of flagship magazines like Model Railroader aren't in touch with the normal folks in the bobby.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

3.8TransAM said:


> I'm also starting to lean to the side of flagship magazines like Model Railroader aren't in touch with the normal folks in the bobby.


Back in the day, product reviews in publications like MR mostly featured stuff you could get at your LHS at affordable prices.
Today, the majority of reviews are for expensive items that most LHS patrons (especially kids) have to pass up.

Most reviews that praise a product, won't mention that it's overpriced.

Sad.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

LateStarter said:


> Back in the day, product reviews in publications like MR mostly featured stuff you could get at your LHS at affordable prices.
> Today, the majority of reviews are for expensive items that most LHS patrons (especially kids) have to pass up.
> 
> Most reviews that praise a product, won't mention that it's overpriced.
> ...


I think they have lost their way, which is sad. Of course no one will bring it up or be critical anymore. Online or paper mags.......

The same manufacturers that come in and say the people in China are people too are the same ones who say 50% of the staff is gone every year. That means drive it into the ground to me  50% turnover means you can pay them less, I'm okay with that. They don't enforce quality now so it won't matter on our end.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Bring back kits*

Back 30 years ago when I modeled HO, the "next step" after a Bachmann or Tyco starter set was Athearn "Blue Box" kits from a local dealer. They were reasonably priced and didn't require craftsman skills, and the locomotives were reliable. Now everything is RTR and those of us who run DC are almost Luddites. Maybe some company ought to bring back quality kits that bridge the gap between starter sets and the expensive stuff.


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## geekchris (Jun 23, 2015)

GNfan said:


> Back 30 years ago when I modeled HO, the "next step" after a Bachmann or Tyco starter set was Athearn "Blue Box" kits from a local dealer. They were reasonably priced and didn't require craftsman skills, and the locomotives were reliable. Now everything is RTR and those of us who run DC are almost Luddites. Maybe some company ought to bring back quality kits that bridge the gap between starter sets and the expensive stuff.


I believe that was part of ScaleTrain's goal, to have many different 'levels' for most of their stock. They have 'Kit Classics' which are like the gold old Athearn Blue Box, they have 'low-end' RTR stuff that is rather reasonably priced, and they have the middle of the line rivet counter stuff, and they have their museum quality stuff, which I doubt many have bought, and I know I wouldn't. 

And to the kit issue: one of my favorite things to do is to buy accurail or bowser kits for low prices and build some rolling stock. It ends up being only a bit less than RTR, depending on whether or not I need new wheelsets, but it is still very enjoyable.

And more on to the point of this whole thread, part of the reason that prices have gone up so much is because the number of people in the hobby are lessening. New people aren't coming into the hobby, meaning less stuff is sold, meaning individual items cost more. I personally believe the problems stem from the popular view that model railroading is only a hobby for old men and something that today's youth should grow out of. If the manufacturers and the main parts of the hobby would find ways to encourage it as a more universal hobby, I'm sure that more people would join the hobby, and that prices would therefore drop back down. Of course, it is questionable if such a goal could be reached, but with the more tactile-minded people of my generation that are looking at more hands-on hobbies, I think there may be a resurgence of the hobby.

At least, that's my two cents


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Here's what discourages a lot of people - being disparaged for: 
1. Buying inexpensive "toy" trains
2. Using sectional track or roadbed track
3. Being told they need flex track without a clue as to what to do with it.
4. Being told they need to buy the expensive track, turnouts, locomotives, cars.
5. Being told they need to go DCC without a clue what that is.

The inexpensive "toy' trains is how many people get started. They just want to put down some track and run some trains. From there, they can go on a little at a time as the bug bites them. It's how they get their kids interested in the train hobby.

But if right from the get go they are told they are wrong, they will just as well say forget it.


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

I have walked away form the high priced super detailed locomotives and rolling stock (if you sneeze near them, parts fly off). I have found some good deals on Walthers Mainline and Kadee products (detailed but well made and constructed here in the US) at places such as Modeltrainstuff.com. I might also mention that Modeltrainstuff.com offers products for the beginner through expert (they even post videos to help folks). My point is, support those merchants and manufacturers who support model railroaders will a variety of items for all types of model railroaders regardless of their budgets and avoid those who do not. I do and will continue to do so.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

PhillipL said:


> I might also mention that Modeltrainstuff.com offers products for the beginner through expert (they even post videos to help folks).


IMO, they offer about the best Customer Service you can find.
I also think they have the best Order Acknowledgement, Shipping Notification, and Tracking Service.
The animated tracking feature is very cool.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

IMO young people are not going to get into anything that they can't do on their electronic device. They can play any kind of sport or game that is all action all the time. They're not interested in seeing slow moving trains after one or two loops.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Gramps said:


> IMO young people are not going to get into anything that they can't do on their electronic device. They can play any kind of sport or game that is all action all the time. They're not interested in seeing slow moving trains after one or two loops.


While my 7yr old son absolutely loves his electronic game time, he will spend hours playing trains on an oval track laid on the carpet. I just recently bought a turnout to add a little more fun to it, but his imagination keeps him enthralled. I am sure my son is not the example of every child out there, but if parents would take the time to nurture their children instead of plopping them down with some computerized baby-sitter, then maybe more children would want to play with trains. A child only knows what they are taught. If they are brought up in a wholesome environment, they can flourish. I have seen several parents my age - in their 30's, that remember what life was like before the computer age and also have seen what a disaster the ever-entitled millennials have turned out to be, try to take an active role with their children. Also, take into account the ever popular Thomas line by both Bachmann and Hornby. I think more and more children are getting into the hobby and that more parents will get bitten by the bug as their children are asking for more trains. My son got me rekindled into collecting!


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

My O.P. is a statement of indignation. I'm pragmatic to a point. But at times I'm a traitor to my own convictions.

I economize where I can -- I'm an Accurail addict for particular cars in certain road names.
I find them here, and I find them there.
I pay an average of $7.50 to $11.50 each, depending on _where_.
Assembly offers a level of challenge between easy and moderately difficult, and I've rarely had a quality issue with them.
Plus, their trucks are good enough, that Truck Tuning, and slapping in a set of InterMountain wheels makes them terrific rollers.

I'm currently on a binge, to find as many Accurail Southwestern open triple hoppers as I can, for consisting long coal drags. I now have about 20, and counting.

But I could only find Utah Railway from _Tangent_, so I had to bite the bullet, and shell out $35 apiece for those. I hated to do it, but it's a major obsession of mine to fill a 30-car coal drag with logic, as far as authentic Southwestern road names are concerned, i.e., Southern Pacific, with a few Rock Island 'stragglers' sprinkled in. An Accurail D&RGW 6-pack is also part of it.

My point is, I economize where I can, and I spend where there's no other way.
In a manner of speaking, Tangent's Utah hoppers are a curse. If they weren't available, I'd be dumb and happy... and have more money.


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## mjrfd99 (Jan 5, 2016)

Sticker shock at Greenburgs yesterday for us. Found a few bargains, but not many. I hear ya on the Athearn Blue Box- noticed people buying up those, especially my favorites Kits with Bev Bel [?] paint schemes. 
$10 for a inter-modal container? It's a piece of plastic 
Prices of oil based products - plastic etc... have not dropped along with the price of oil. 
Starting out in this hobby must be an expensive undertaking for a new guy. 

PS-- Union model RR club was fantastic- big doings in a whole new addition. Open next couple w/e's
http://www.tmrci.org/home-page.html


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

Gramps said:


> IMO young people are not going to get into anything that they can't do on their electronic device. They can play any kind of sport or game that is all action all the time. They're not interested in seeing slow moving trains after one or two loops.


Its annoying isnt it?

I know -I- was always more intrigued by trains than by my nintendo.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

LateStarter said:


> My O.P. is a statement of indignation. I'm pragmatic to a point. But at times I'm a traitor to my own convictions.
> 
> I economize where I can -- I'm an Accurail addict for particular cars in certain road names.
> I find them here, and I find them there.
> ...


I try not to buy anything new.

90% of my cars are old tyco with a new coupler and some metal wheels.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

LateStarter said:


> ExactRail is running a _Friday-only "sale"_...
> Magor 4948 Big John covered hoppers -- for the super-duper price of $39.95 each... (MSRP = $62.95).
> 
> Good grief!
> ...


They probably do. When I was growing up my mother worked in a grocery store, and the regular price for a can of peas was 11 cents The owner put a sign in the window "SALE PEAS, 3 cans for 33 cents" They sold like crazy.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

santafealltheway said:


> I try not to buy anything new.
> 
> 90% of my cars are old tyco with a new coupler and some metal wheels.


That's how I do it. Train shows, ebay and whatever else I might discover at a flea market, yard sale, etc. 
And somehow I don't feel a bit deprived


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

JNXT 7707 said:


> That's how I do it. Train shows, ebay and whatever else I might discover at a flea market, yard sale, etc.
> And somehow I don't feel a bit deprived


You got that right!


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

I just had a phone conversation with Internet Hobbies...
I wanted to make sure they actually had an Accurail set they advertise in stock. They don't.
But I was dismayed by his comment --

_*"We no longer stock the little items like Accurail. There's more profit in the big stuff. Accurail has too many road names, too many car numbers, and too many versions. They take up too much shelf space, and it's just not worth the trouble."*_

I guess that 'splains it.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Not worth the trouble? That's too bad, he's losing sales from a lot of people then...Accurail stuff is great...it's the new 'blue box"....

On the topic of "ludicrous prices".....some of that is a little subjective, especially if you've been in the hobby for a long time. There was a time when the only pieces of equipment for certain items was only available in brass.......$200.00 + for a grain car; now THAT's ludicrous! But that's all there was; now great grain cars are available in plastic from a number of manufacturers, at affordable prices......yeah, more than 10 or 12 dollars, but you couldn't make those for that price point.....


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

I can't sit here and pretend that I'm so principled, that I refuse to pay a ransom for stuff, after dropping $35 each on 14 Tangent hoppers.
So I have to grudgingly agree with any argument for "pay what you can to get what you want", or to get what isn't available anywhere else.
It's a fact of life.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

So, there was no point to this thread then? :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> So, there was no point to this thread then? :laugh::laugh::laugh:


Sure there was, it gave me another opportunity to be a curmudgeon :sly:


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Just what we need...yet another opportunity to be a curmudgeon....

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## doneuald (Jan 2, 2016)

DavefromMD said:


> Here's what discourages a lot of people - being disparaged for:
> 1. Buying inexpensive "toy" trains
> 2. Using sectional track or roadbed track
> 3. Being told they need flex track without a clue as to what to do with it.
> ...


Being told "that if you don't scratch build everything your not a model railroader"


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

For me, the reason I am in the hobby is that I can put together and run whatever I want. I don't care what people think, its my railroad created using my imagination. Sure I have some nicely detailed items like my Walthers Proto FM H10-44 locomotive (only bought because I caught it on sale for $89) but I also have great fun running my Bachmann GP7 and Alco switcher. The same goes with my rolling stock, I think my Athearn Ready To Roll and Walthers Mainline freight cars are great but I also have some great Kadee cars (I am willing to pay more for these because they are made here in the US and probably the best built cars available in my opinion). Did I mention my buildings are all European? Like I say I do it the way I want to which is how it should be.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't buy 60 dollar cars or 39 dollar cars. I think that is insane. I like kadee cars also.
But I buy them used at train shows when I sometimes get them for 10 dollars. I won't
hardly pay over 10 dollars for a car. I did pay 30 dollars once. It was a custom built, not
just custom painted. It is a mopac transfer caboose. I guess enough people pay those high prices for rolling stock or they would quit selling them for that. As long as people will pay that, they will sell them for that. Not uncommon for 11 dollar blue box cars on ebay. The box will have 3.85 printed on the end. 7 dollars is about the most I will pay for a BB.
You have to set your parameters and stay in them. Not that hard. And I have some very cool cars.

I do pay 15 for walthers goldline modern auto carriers used. They are 40 dollar cars new. If these used cars are not nice condition I don't buy them. I am not fond of scratches.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

We are our own worst enemy. A lot of people want every version of a given model. They want the manufacturer to provide the models, not a model that they will modify to suit their needs. 
The model press is just pushing what they think people want. Someone has the data that supports that people will only buy RTR. Based on this and other forums, it seems that data may be flawed. 

DCC has been around for 20 years, sound a few years later. After all this time, A mobile decoder is $25 and a sound decoder with speakers runs at least $90. These numbers ought to be $5 and $25 respectively. The issue is they were initially put into production in a flawed form. Things are better, but there are still lots of problems that can fry your engine.
We are experiencing a situation where we have the sound system of year or even every six months. This keeps the prices up, for sometimes little actual benefit. You might be able to discern the difference in the sound, you may not. Regardless, the new items keep the costs up because the demand follows the changes.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Nobody has yet specifically mentioned the high cost of making the super-detailed dies to cast today's super-detailed locos and rolling stock. And price is held up by the manufacturers limiting the number they make.

Also consider the many add-on details available nowadays, things that didn't used to be out there to buy. Structures are more detailed with interior features. Highway cars and trucks are more detailed. Everything is more detailed! And that costs money to produce.

I agree with most of you. I bought a couple good DCC engines, and am slowly converting my 20-30 year old rolling stock to better trucks and couplers. My spending on the hobby is VERY limited.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I saw that same add and just went right by it. $62.95 for a freight car no matter how well detailed is beyond my budget.

I like steam engines but in today's market they are just too high so I stick with Rivarossi from the 90's. Just picked up a slightly used ho Blue goose engine at a great price made in 1994. 

I also buy other brands when something attracts me. I run both DC/dcc with my MRC tech 6

You have to look around for good buys, a month or two ago I was at a train show and one guy had 4 or 500 diesels of all kinds for $10 each. Another guy was selling Accurail kits for $5. So you see stuff is out there.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> And price is held up by the manufacturers limiting the number they make


One might take that statement to mean that the manufacturers are deliberately trying to make the cars more "rare", and thus command higher prices.

The actual reason that cars are now produced in morelimited numbers is that manufacturers don't want to be sitting on un-sold stock....not like the old days, when Athearn had the same blue box cars in a warehouse, and your dealer/hobbyshop could order it forever and it would still be in stock....

It costs significant money to warehouse un-sold product, so they do those pre-orders now and make only the numbers that they know they can sell out....


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

A higher cost of tooling (to produce better detail) can be turned into an investment...
Instead of limited production to avoid an over-stock, it should be a practice of limited production over a long period of time -- i.e., x-number of units per year, for x-number of years.

I know that from my viewpoint, I'd love to have the Walthers RDC Budd car brought back periodically, or the Accurail D&RGW 70 ton hoppers, or the Atlas RSD5, etc.

Reissues would mean re-sales, which might equal re-profits.
If an item disappears from the shelves, it simply means it was popular. Why put a stop to a good thing?
The problem could be, that some manufacturers can't stand prosperity when it stares them in the face.

If somebody made a Varney repro today, I'd still be buying them.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

ExactRail is now offering their Gunderson 2420 gon for $12.95.
Now that's more like it!


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

LateStarter said:


> If an item disappears from the shelves, it simply means it was popular


Not necessarily.....that just means that they sold the number of cars they produced after getting 'x' number of pre-orders, and pre-orders are really how many people are interested enough in the car to actually buy one....


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

The cost of inventory is no different relatively today than it was forty years ago. Most of the "inventory" was stored at the end seller. He had to have something for you to buy when you came in the door. Now he or you can get it in a few days, and does not have to have as much in stock. Unfortunately, the big guys who still buy a lot and stock a number of items are still winning in this market. The losers are the small guy LHS. 
Some of this limited production stuff has to do with not actually producing the product. Today, there are few actual model train factories. In a lot of cases, they keep their people busy going from one order to the next. Going from Atlas to Intermountan to Boswer and so on. Athearn would keep their people busy producing a sequence of products that were par of their catalog. They knew that a certain number would sell each year, so that is what they made. This model fails when the number of sales fall. Some of this is driven by cost of the items. As price goes up, generally demand softens. To combat this, the marketing established a "special" run model. Limited run, more accurate details, etc. this led to a resurgence in interest and sales. Much like in other parts of retail you have a sale. The actual price may be higher per item, but the buyer get excited to buy anyway. 
This always "special" model has a catch 22 to it. Fewer products with more features always drive costs up. The learning curve is never satisfied. So to make money you have to charge more and more and more. 
There is a ceiling. Just like when the cost of housing exceeded what 70 percent of the buyers could afford to pay, they stopped buying. Prices fell. New product on average now is smaller with fewer features. The prices are more in line with what the people can afford. Those same forces are in play in model trains. Your starting to see simpler lower cost items being produced. Yes, your still seeing "special" products released. The question is where will the bread and butter be made. 
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

LateStarter said:


> A higher cost of tooling (to produce better detail) can be turned into an investment...
> Instead of limited production to avoid an over-stock, it should be a practice of limited production over a long period of time -- i.e., x-number of units per year, for x-number of years.


Most models are produced in molds which get mounted on a standardized piece of machinery. Each time you swap molds, there is a set-up cost. Numerous small batches would drive prices even higher. That's why the manufacturers try to balance batch size with demand.


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

I often suspect that "limited runs" are purposely done by manufacturers to drive up prices. When Marklin bought out Trix, suddenly every Trix model was a "limited" edition with a high price tag. What motivates us to buy an item more than the thought, "I better get it now or it will be gone". Every Walthers Proto or Mainline new item announcement says "one time run of these road numbers!". The manufacturers stimulate quick sales by doing this.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

PhillipL said:


> What motivates us to buy an item more than the thought, "I better get it now or it will be gone".


That's the motto of today's model railroader. Or, maybe "get it now, or wait another 20 years and try to find it at a train show." :laugh:


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

GNfan said:


> Back 30 years ago when I modeled HO, the "next step" after a Bachmann or Tyco starter set was Athearn "Blue Box" kits from a local dealer. They were reasonably priced and didn't require craftsman skills, and the locomotives were reliable. Now everything is RTR and those of us who run DC are almost Luddites. Maybe some company ought to bring back quality kits that bridge the gap between starter sets and the expensive stuff.


I started my layout over 30 years ago and at the time the blue box kits were the best bang for the buck. Besides decorated kits, I also got quite a few undecorated kits and custom painted them for my freelance railroad. 

Everything had Kadee couplers installed and metal wheels, if not sprung trucks were installed. Everything was also lightly weathered before going on the tracks. 

I also had some really nice wood freight cars kits that I also put together. Almost all of these cars are still in service. Apparently the time taken to build them and properly install Kadee couplers was worth the effort. 

I see numerous ads in model railroad magazines advertising some highly detailed freight cars, but the prices are a bit high for me. I was buying locomotives when I started my layout for what they want for freight car from some of the manufacturers. 

In recent years I have picked up a few cars fron Kadee that have excellent details on Amazon that I sometimes come across at a decent price in the mid $30 range. The only reason I picked them up was because living the the west I had overlooked many road names from eastern railroads. 

I find that when the highly detailed cars are in a train with my cheapie blue box cars, you really can't tell much of a diffrence unless you are right on top of the train. 

For me I would rather save a few bucks for others model railroad supplies than spend a lot of money for the high price freight cars.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Nice post, Chet...
Well written.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

ExactRail is advertising their M53 B&O Wagon Top boxcars on sale at $27.95.
I don't consider that a bargain.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

LateStarter said:


> ExactRail is advertising their M53 B&O Wagon Top boxcars on sale at $27.95.
> I don't consider that a bargain.


In my world, it's not. Not for a boxcar. hwell:


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## slammin (Mar 25, 2016)

I have several of those "expensive" cars. Most were bought on sale at about 50% of MSRP. The nice thing about this hobby, no one forces you to pay 40 to 50 dollars for a box car. Years ago I collected dozens of Branchline, IMWX, Red Caboose and Intermountian kits because I wanted more detail freight cars. I sold off my old Roundhouse and Athearn Blue Box rolling stock. Shake the box kits are still being marketed by Bowser and Accurail, but the price is on a par with what I spend on those highly detailed kits. That doesn't make sense!


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

ExactRail advertising "Cyberweek Deal Of The Day!"
Quad hoppers, MSRP = $50... on sale for $33.

Can't make this stuff up.


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## Smokinapankake (Sep 8, 2011)

ggnlars said:


> We are our own worst enemy. A lot of people want every version of a given model. They want the manufacturer to provide the models, not a model that they will modify to suit their needs.
> The model press is just pushing what they think people want. Someone has the data that supports that people will only buy RTR. Based on this and other forums, it seems that data may be flawed.
> 
> DCC has been around for 20 years, sound a few years later. After all this time, A mobile decoder is $25 and a sound decoder with speakers runs at least $90. These numbers ought to be $5 and $25 respectively. The issue is they were initially put into production in a flawed form. Things are better, but there are still lots of problems that can fry your engine.
> ...



This same principle is in full force in the cycling industry as well. Shimano, perhaps the biggest producer of cycle related componentry, introduces the latest and greatest shifters almost every year, thereby negating the effectiveness and usefulness of last years' model. In an industry that is as fashion conscious as cycling, this generates almost slavish devotion to owning the newest thing out there because your current stuff, which may have been top line last year is now somehow obsolete. 

But is it really? Yes, generational changes can be quite a leap forward, but incremental changes implemented yearly or twice yearly are hardly noticeable. 

I haven't owned a Bachmann locomotive since I was a kid (at least 25 years ago), but the SD40-2 that I bought used off eBay a year ago runs nicer than my 15 year old Stewart Alco C628, and cost less to boot. 

What really bugs me is when a manufacturer introduces yet another F7 to a market that is already flooded with 50 years' worth of F7's. Why not spend that R&D money to bring us something interesting, like an EMD RS1325?

Oh yeah, because the demand follows the marketing.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Trainlife.com is selling some ExactRail cars for half Price, i.e., Thrall gons for $16.95.
That puts them in the Athearn range.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Scaletrains.com is an up and coming company in model trains. Nice stuff. I have bought from them once so far. They produce the yellow water tenders for the UP Heritage steam fleet. Which I bought.
They have 3 or 4 levels of detail. Right now they have their box car kits (for you guys that like kits, I do) on sale for 9.99 each. These are normally 20 bucks. They are easy kits to build. I am sure similar to BB kits. Not a bad price because they include metal wheels and knuckle couplers. And very crisp lettering. The top of the line is called
"museum quality" and includes a magnifier glass to view the nice lettering. That is different. They have some nice tank cars on sale. They are still too high for me. These
are RTR msrp of 38.99 for 24.95 each IF you buy 12 of them. They are out of Tenn. They
will be a player soon. Any order over 99.99 ships for free.

The boxcar kits have 3 different road numbers for each road name.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I understand that Scaletrains was created by a few ex-Athearn employees. Anyone got any more info behind that?

Sorry if this has been discussed before....


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

That horse had kind of been beat to death. But I'll just say, the ExactRail, Intermountain, Moloco and Tangent products aren't really meant to be gateway toys to bring young folk into the hobby. They are producing models for connoisseurs who want high fidelity models for their layouts and have cash to pay for them. Guess what, they are selling them too.

Now as for young folk, there is still Accurail, Walthers Mainline, Atlas Trainman and similar products that are at the lower end they can afford and if they have the MR genes, eventually they may graduate up to the really good stuff!


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

LateStarter said:


> ExactRail advertising "Cyberweek Deal Of The Day!"
> Quad hoppers, MSRP = $50... on sale for $33.
> 
> Can't make this stuff up.


Nobody pays MRSP for trains that I know of, that's just a sort of reference number.

The number to compare is ExactRails selling price which is $38.95, and while they were on sale in December, they were $32.95 - I bought 15 of them and shipping was free.

BTW, they are gorgeous matches to Rio Grande's great steel fleet. I have Walthers version too, and they are much cruder, but if you weather them and run them in a long train, you don't notice the lack of detail. I've got both and plan on running them both. D&RGW fans need lots of quads - never have enough of them.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Just wait til all the production of those high-end pieces are forced to come back to the U.S.......if you think the prices are high now......prepare yourselves......


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

There's a place for all these products in the hobby, nobody's holding a gun to your head. If you think they're overpriced go elsewhere.

If you hunt around you can get savings as riogrande says.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Old_Hobo said:


> I understand that Scaletrains was created by a few ex-Athearn employees. Anyone got any more info behind that?
> 
> Sorry if this has been discussed before....


Yes, all four main guys from what I understand - John Paul Ringo and George, oh wait.... Shane Wilson and Paul Ellis are two of them - I can't remember the other two.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Old_Hobo said:


> Just wait til all the production of those high-end pieces are forced to come back to the U.S.......if you think the prices are high now......prepare yourselves......


That won't happen in for-see-able future. I've heard the same arguments for the I-phone and estimates if made in the US would cost anywhere from $1800 to well over $2000 - so obviously I-phones ain't going to be made here either. :eyes:

move along ... move along


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

All I can say is that I am glad that I am to the point with my layout that I really no longer need any locomotives or rolling stock. I did start my layout 0ver 30 years and have accumulated a lot of locomotives and rolling stock during that time period. The majority of my rolling stock is Athearn blue box kits, but they are lightly weathered and when in a train are hard to tell the difference from the few more highly detailed cars that I have. 

I don't buy anything that I can't use on my layout. I model the transition era, so I have no modern locomotives at all. I keep almost all of my locomotives and rolling stock ON the layout. 

I have two yards, twenty some industries and hidden staging track for equipment that there's no room for topside. I am now starting to get tight on space so I guess I'll do with the equipment that I have. 

I am glad that I don't have to pay todays prices for locomotives and rolling stock.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Chet said:


> I am glad that I don't have to pay todays prices for locomotives and rolling stock.


Here is the thing, anyone can still find lots of bargains for loco's and rolling stock out there on the secondary market so if high prices or highly detailed accurate trains are not your thing, hey, no worries.

See, this is the golden age of the hobby now because there is lots of awesome choices at the low, mid and high end of the hobby. So everyone should be happy, and can find something that fits their budget and desires. 

Sure, you can go out and admire a Jaguar or Porsche but a Toyota may be just fine. You can get Athearn blue box , Walthers red box or Accurail kits for $5-10 or buy a Tangnet for $36-45 for an exact copy of real thing freight car, or things in between. No reason for anyone to be unhappy or fret.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

As others have said, you don't have to pay the high prices. The train show that was in town last weekend had literally thousands of cars in the various booths that were old "new stock" or used. I found a really nice Roundhouse Great Northern caboose for $6.00. I've been looking for a Great Northern caboose on all the online retailers and not one has them in stock. I was super excited to find one of good quality for such a low cost.

Mark


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Ebay, clearance and sales.

Craigslist too!

Also being nice to your local hobby shop owner if you have one helps to.

I do a combination of all the above.


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

Just a thought and believe me I am NOT trying to judge anyone. We as a nation want higher wages for workers, better work conditions and healthcare for all. All noble ideals yet it does seem to bother us that we willing to by items made by workers who live in absolute poverty, receive ridiculously low wages and have no rights. Maybe we should start thinking about that before making purchases.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

riogrande said:


> That won't happen in for-see-able future. I've heard the same arguments for the I-phone and estimates if made in the US would cost anywhere from $1800 to well over $2000 - so obviously I-phones ain't going to be made here either. :eyes:
> 
> move along ... move along


I don't think Trump is going to win that one, you can't just. turn the clock back. Maybe he'll look at the huge mark up Apple put on their phones which we all know are manufactured for liitle cost in the far east.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Uh oh, the topic has turned to politics and economic policies. Fun's over. Cheers


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

riogrande said:


> Uh oh, the topic has turned to politics and economic policies. Fun's over. Cheers


I missed something somewhere. How can you discuss pricing without discussing economics?

Everyone wants higher wages and lower prices. Great fantasy, but it doesn't work that way.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> I missed something somewhere. How can you discuss pricing without discussing economics?


All due respect CTValleyRR but the comments I read in the earlier posts went much beyond the economics of train pricing; thats what I was referring to. 

If you want a discussion in train pricing, fair enough, I'll see if I can find Jason Shron's comments based on his experience running Rapido. For example, people complain about our trains being made in China, and then point to Kadee and how they can sell RTR box cars for something less than a totally insane price. Jason has provided some thoughtful explanations to rebutt that.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

PhillipL said:


> Just a thought and believe me I am NOT trying to judge anyone. We as a nation want higher wages for workers, better work conditions and healthcare for all. All noble ideals yet it does seem to bother us that we willing to by items made by workers who live in absolute poverty, receive ridiculously low wages and have no rights. Maybe we should start thinking about that before making purchases.


BINGO! We can't have it both ways. Like it or not, low prices mean we import more than we export.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

riogrande said:


> All due respect CTValleyRR but the comments I read in the earlier posts went much beyond the economics of train pricing; thats what I was referring to.
> 
> If you want a discussion in train pricing, fair enough, I'll see if I can find Jason Shron's comments based on his experience running Rapido. For example, people complain about our trains being made in China, and then point to Kadee and how they can sell RTR box cars for something less than a totally insane price. Jason has provided some thoughtful explanations to rebutt that.


I understand what you meant by bringing politics and public policy into the discussion as well as implications that there is something beyond economics at work, but ultimately, this is a discussion of economics, and how forces of supply and demand affect pricing. 

Personally, i understand the concepts involved all too well, both pro and con. As I implied above, these types of discussions are all essentially about wanting to have our cake and eat it too.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Please excuse me if I'm repeating someone else's comments. In my opinion prices are ludicrous for several reasons. 

For one, I think many of us are demanding too much detail, but then, I'm not a super-detail guy. I don't understand working suspension on rolling stock, or locos, for that matter. I don't understand working doors and passenger car diaphragms. Gee whiz, it's not like we're carrying living creatures that we want to be more comfortable! Yes, I understand working lights. But why have decals of such accuracy that you need a magnifying glass to read them?

To me, $20 for an N-scale car is too expensive...I don't buy them. I have a lot of rolling stock from the 1970s and 80s, and I use them with a few "conversion cars" that I've replaced the hook horn couplers. I had to swallow pretty hard to calm my heart when I spent over $100 for a loco! I realize technology has come a long way, but I have a 1980s 4-8-4 steamer that cost $25. But then, I guess everything else has increased by 4 times also! 

Prices on most everything are ludicrous, aren't they!!


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Good thing you don't buy those N scale cars.....seeing as this is the H.O. section.......:laugh:


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

You can buy very expensive cars and you can buy allot that is not. I saw tons of Ho cars at a show yesterday for $10 and less. I bought two that were just $5. I also bought 3 Rivarossi Pennsylvania passenger cars, like new for $10 each with boxes. 

I also saw BB kits for $5 and many accurail kits for $5 also. Yes not as detailed as the more expensive models but for me and my budget they are great. 

This past year I have bought 10 IHC, AHM and Rivarossi ( most if not all were built by Rivarossi ) GG1's at an average price of around $60 each, all are Smooth and quiet running. Most were like new. 

So you see you don't have to buy stuff at high prices, look around, visit shows, that's what I do. 

I'm building a nice Pennsylvania based layout with catenary, the trains I have found on eBay and at shows have allowed me to stay in this hobby. 

Dave


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## JimL (Aug 16, 2015)

LateStarter said:


> ExactRail is running a _Friday-only "sale"_...
> Magor 4948 Big John covered hoppers -- for the super duper price of $39.95 each... (MSRP = $62.95).
> 
> Good grief! .....


I have very small railroads .... I'm very close to my stuff .... so, I enjoy finely detailed items. 

And, since my layouts are so small, with limited engines and rolling stock.... it's much easier to afford premium items.

Having said that, I do try hard to stick to those "super duper" prices .... which pretty much means ~40% off of list prices for current items. Such as that ModelTrainStuff email today with a 20% - off coupon code for Athearn Genesis items. Patience pays.

On the other hand, I'm just starting into a small, shelf, switching layout in 2-rail O scale, on the side. And, over the weekend on eBay, I paid more than the original list price, plus over paying a bit for shipping, on an "used - like new" Atlas O hopper .... that _I just had to have._ lol



riogrande said:


> ..... If you want a discussion in train pricing, fair enough, I'll see if I can find Jason Shron's comments based on his experience running Rapido. For example, people complain about our trains being made in China, and then point to Kadee and how they can sell RTR box cars for something less than a totally insane price. Jason has provided some thoughtful explanations to rebutt that.


 I'd be interested in reading Jason's comments, if you can find them. Thanks

Jim


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

davidone said:


> So you see you don't have to buy stuff at high prices, look around, visit shows, that's what I do.
> 
> Dave


The nearest train show to my home is approximately 250 miles. It's not economical for me to go there. As for fleabay, I don't go there either because of poor reviews, questionable sellers, and it just plain confuses me. Yeah, that's MY problem, but I handle it the best I can.

It's all OK. We each get by in our own way. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Fire21 said:


> The nearest train show to my home is approximately 250 miles. It's not economical for me to go there. As for fleabay, I don't go there either because of poor reviews, questionable sellers, and it just plain confuses me. Yeah, that's MY problem, but I handle it the best I can.
> 
> It's all OK. We each get by in our own way. :smilie_daumenpos:



I have been on eBay since 1999 and never had a bad deal if I am buying or selling. It's a great place to find items you would never find at your local hobby shop or train show if you had one.


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## JimL (Aug 16, 2015)

davidone said:


> ....This past year I have bought 10 IHC, AHM and Rivarossi ( most if not all were built by Rivarossi ) GG1's ....
> 
> ....I'm building a nice Pennsylvania based layout with catenary, ....
> 
> Dave


Very cool! Would love to see photos/video some day as it progresses.

Jim


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