# Layout question



## DPregs (Jan 10, 2022)

Hey guys. I am looking to put together a layout, and being new to this I have a question.

How do you guys plan it out? Is there a program nowadays?

or 

do you just lay it out and see what happens?

I am starting on the floor and want to be able to run two trains.

Thank you for the advice!


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Good morning.There are many members here that can help you more than myself, as shown in some of their videos. My lay-out is all flat, no accessories, no inclines, I just want to run trains. I just started to lay down track and see where it went from there. I know there are computer-aided track plans and such.. Be patient, someone alot more knowledgeable will give you an answer.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Welcome to the MTF! What kind of (brand) track and turnouts do you plan to use? What are the approximate dimensions of the space available and how many sides of the layout will be against a wall? Will the track plan be flat or will there be grades?


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Do you want a couple ovals to run two trains and just watch them go around or do you (and a friend) want to operate two trains in a realistic manner?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

DPregs said:


> How do you guys plan it out? Is there a program nowadays?


There are programs. AnyRail and SCARM come to mind right off. I use the latter. It saved me way more that the $40 it cost. You can download it and try it for free, but you only get to place a limited amount of track.






SCARM - The leading design software for model railroad layouts


Powerful model railroad track planning editor for easy and precise design of scaled train layouts. With instant 3D Viewer, Model Trains Simulator and rich set of additional features.




www.scarm.info


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## Andreash (Dec 30, 2018)

Check out Pinterest for layout ideas. Sometimes taking elements from different layouts can lead to your plan…cheers☕🍩


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Some people just start putting down track with no plan; sometimes with mind blowing results. 
Pro/Con to this: You can get trains running quickly; increased likelihood of ending up with track arrangements you dislike.

Some spend tons of time planning (mine had been in some form of planning for 15 years).
Pro/Con to this: You get precisely what you want, but it’s more of an evolutionary process.

Planning can be done a variety of ways: digital & 3D software, grid paper using a track template, adopting portions of published plans (i.e. yard from one layout, industrial switching area from another layout, pier/wharf from a third layout, etc), or just drawing a vague plan without precision placement, allowing for more flexibility and “shoe horning” last minute changes. 
I’ve done each of those mentioned. While “to each their own” applies, I like the last method so much I don’t see myself ever doing or endorsing a “better” way. 
Having said that; adopting portions from published plans as mentioned gives someone new to this the best concept of what will fit in their available space.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Welcome.

The very FIRST thing you should do is to put a big oval on the floor and get something running on it.

Then take everyone else's advice and start researching & planning for what you actually want to do and have room for.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I knew the wonderful experts here on the forum would take you under their wing, a great bunch of guys...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, since I just posted this link, its still saved, lol. I like this site for ideas, then I would modify it to what I have pictured in my head. So , take a look. You'll have to scroll down for s layouts. 


All-Gauge Model Railroading Page


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## DPregs (Jan 10, 2022)

THank you all! I started with a loop with an inner loop, but that didn't go well. Switches are sticky and don't move well. Maybe my small transformer didn't have the cajones being a small 40w. I got out the bigger one with not much better results. Also, the one train that would run would stop randomly and either stop or reverse. Maybe I should just get new track that isn't 60 years old?


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## MohawkMike (Jan 29, 2018)

DPregs said:


> THank you all! I started with a loop with an inner loop, but that didn't go well. Switches are sticky and don't move well. Maybe my small transformer didn't have the cajones being a small 40w. I got out the bigger one with not much better results. Also, the one train that would run would stop randomly and either stop or reverse. Maybe I should just get new track that isn't 60 years old?


Try giving it a good cleaning first and check your connections between tracks.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

DPregs said:


> Maybe I should just get new track that isn't 60 years old?


Is it _really_ that old? If so there's a good possibility it's brass... or steel. If either then yes, toss it and get some new, nickel-silver track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, 60 years its just getting broken in. Im about to lay down some 1928 ish track. So, it should work if its not rusted to death! First, clean the track, then the engien and cars, oil them up just a drop or 2, and make sure your conections on thr track are good, plus use more then one lock on. The s scale people can help you out a bit more. But gears need oil, axels need oil. Just a drop, like on the end of a toothpick. And use motor oil or sewing machine oil, or whatever the s people say to use. Other stuff turns to a sticky mess.and make sure the conections are tight, s scale has pins, right? Make sure they are not loose.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

DPregs is an S gauge operator. I asked about the track and turnouts above, from the most recent post it sounds like Gilbert track and turnouts are in use. Gilbert track is heavy gauge steel alloy formed into a T shape, not plated. It is highly corrosion resistant. Gilbert track can be sanded with power tools if needed to clean it up. Even better is to burnish the running surface but that is a lot of work. Cleaning the rail head and the track pins makes for a good operating and long lasting layout.The turnouts need to be cleaned and lubricated by removing the bottom plates. Also the sliding brass contacts must be cleaned. With just a small amount of maintenance they will work almost forever. All my turnouts from 1949 through 1957 work better than new and snap smartly with just 12V. Flyernut, who posted above is the true master of Gilbert turnout maintenance.
Dirt is the enemy of flawless operation. I think the pickup wheels, axle wipers, engine commutators and possibly the reverse units all need cleaned and some lubrication done.
DPregs, all the Gilbert instruction books are online at americanflyerexpress.com. These booklets each have several pages of track plans for Gilbert track to get started and get some ideas flowing. If the layout is 8'x16' or less and only one level it is easier to mentally form an idea and mock it up on the floor than trying to use layout software. I have built over 40 Gilbert layouts this way with great success, most before there was any track software. Many people do use the sectional track software with great results, whatever appeals to you. My larger permanent layout was deigned and built using 3D software but that layout uses 700' of code 138 nickle silver flex track, #5, #6 and #8 hand laid turnouts, and is spread over four interconnected levels with multiple reverse loops and two yards.
Some of the layout planning software seems to show track fitment misalignments with Gilbert track when in fact they fit perfectly. They do not verify clearances when placing accessories and they do not highlight turnout alignments that defeat the power routing feature of the Gilbert turnouts. These all need to be manually checked and sometimes mocked up to make sure everything works with adequate clearances.
Do not use less than 100W transformers for each loop. Remember these postwar transformers all all input wattage ratings so a 100W transformer only supplies about 80W very short term or 70W long term continuous. That is about 5A. A steam engine, four lighted passenger cars, the lights in three pair of turnouts plus four illuminated Gilbert accessories will draw 5A. It is best to power the turnouts and accessories from a separate transformer. Examples of inexpensive 100W Gilbert transformers are 8B, 4B and 15B. The 15B has a deadman's handle if you like that.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is an example of a layout mockup prior to construction. This is Layout #9 from the 1949 Gilbert Booklet with two sidings added. In order to fit the two uncouplers on the lower left where I wanted them it was necessary to add a 2” piece of track on the left and right sides of the outer loop.


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## DPregs (Jan 10, 2022)

Stumpy said:


> Is it _really_ that old? If so there's a good possibility it's brass... or steel. If either then yes, toss it and get some new, nickel-silver track.


Yupper. 2022-1958 = 64


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## DPregs (Jan 10, 2022)

AmFlyer said:


> DPregs is an S gauge operator. I asked about the track and turnouts above, from the most recent post it sounds like Gilbert track and turnouts are in use. Gilbert track is heavy gauge steel alloy formed into a T shape, not plated. It is highly corrosion resistant. Gilbert track can be sanded with power tools if needed to clean it up. Even better is to burnish the running surface but that is a lot of work. Cleaning the rail head and the track pins makes for a good operating and long lasting layout.The turnouts need to be cleaned and lubricated by removing the bottom plates. Also the sliding brass contacts must be cleaned. With just a small amount of maintenance they will work almost forever. All my turnouts from 1949 through 1957 work better than new and snap smartly with just 12V. Flyernut, who posted above is the true master of Gilbert turnout maintenance.
> Dirt is the enemy of flawless operation. I think the pickup wheels, axle wipers, engine commutators and possibly the reverse units all need cleaned and some lubrication done.
> DPregs, all the Gilbert instruction books are online at americanflyerexpress.com. These booklets each have several pages of track plans for Gilbert track to get started and get some ideas flowing. If the layout is 8'x16' or less and only one level it is easier to mentally form an idea and mock it up on the floor than trying to use layout software. I have built over 40 Gilbert layouts this way with great success, most before there was any track software. Many people do use the sectional track software with great results, whatever appeals to you. My larger permanent layout was deigned and built using 3D software but that layout uses 700' of code 138 nickle silver flex track, #5, #6 and #8 hand laid turnouts, and is spread over four interconnected levels with multiple reverse loops and two yards.
> Some of the layout planning software seems to show track fitment misalignments with Gilbert track when in fact they fit perfectly. They do not verify clearances when placing accessories and they do not highlight turnout alignments that defeat the power routing feature of the Gilbert turnouts. These all need to be manually checked and sometimes mocked up to make sure everything works with adequate clearances.
> Do not use less than 100W transformers for each loop. Remember these postwar transformers all all input wattage ratings so a 100W transformer only supplies about 80W very short term or 70W long term continuous. That is about 5A. A steam engine, four lighted passenger cars, the lights in three pair of turnouts plus four illuminated Gilbert accessories will draw 5A. It is best to power the turnouts and accessories from a separate transformer. Examples of inexpensive 100W Gilbert transformers are 8B, 4B and 15B. The 15B has a deadman's handle if you like that.


Thank you for the reply. Some of the track was in decent shape, but a lot of it was oxidized and even rusty. I did my best to clean them on the wire wheel (just the tops of the rails) and then made sure that no stray wires were left behind. I actually found an original flyer book after I posted when I started to dig through the stuff my dad had, but I just ended on a simple loop with a 100w transformer. The first loop and inner loop I had the 100w running the train and then the 40w hooked to just the switches.

I plan to today go through the simple loop and make sure all the track is okay and clean and then start building out. Thank you again.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I use a scotchbrite pad to clean up the track. Works well. Then I wipe with alcohol, as pure as you can get it. If the ruse is really bad, some soak the track in evapor rust.


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## alaft61ri (Oct 11, 2019)

I pretty much had a basic layout idear once I started I changed things as I went along started with a 5x10then add another 5 feet then added and upper level. Oh yea welcome like flyer nut said bounch of great guys here .


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Interesting math posted above. 2022-1958=64. My 1950 track switches, 4B transformer, 322AC Hudson et al, will be 72 years old this December, scary.


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## alaft61ri (Oct 11, 2019)

I guess iam the baby of the group. Lol


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## raisaacs (Dec 14, 2018)

DPregs said:


> Hey guys. I am looking to put together a layout, and being new to this I have a question.
> 
> How do you guys plan it out? Is there a program nowadays?
> 
> ...


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

DPregs said:


> Hey guys. I am looking to put together a layout, and being new to this I have a question.
> 
> How do you guys plan it out? Is there a program nowadays?
> 
> ...


All the replies so far have been great, but in the interest of avoiding wasting your time in ultimately unsuccessful or unsatisfying efforts, may I suggest there's one central question you need to be able to answer first: "Why do you want to play with toy trains?"

The answer to _that_ (somewhat cheeky!) question IMHO immediately breaks into two directional sub-questions, one looking back, and one looking forward. The first is, "What first brought your attention to model railroading?", and the second, "What do you want to do with the trains?"

The answer to the first is nearly universal, something on the order of, "My *__ gave me my first train set when I was _*!", or "When I was a kid, I _really_ wanted *_*!" The _content_ of those recollections will often be a helpful guide to what gauge and "esthetic" you'll most enjoy pursuing, and guide the planning process. I see you're interested in S gauge, so I'd guess there's an American Flyer or two somewhere in your childhood! 

The answer to the second question is a lot more varied IME. Many new (or newly returned!) model railroaders just want to recreate the layouts of their youth, now that they have the resources and skills to make real the dreams of their youth. Others want to extend their skill sets and fulfill ambitions they had to abandon long ago. Some are really into the minutia of provenance and collectibility, while others are into creating a fantasy landscape upon which they can simulate the operations of IRL actual railroads. Being clear about what you want to accomplish in model railroading will go a long way to guiding your decision making along the way.

With all that said, though, I'd say the _process_ of layout design has two major 'branches'. One involves visualizing the desired result in as much detail as possible, guided by your answers to the above questions. Track planning software, old-fashioned sketches, reviewing other's layout plans, viewing YouTube videos, or just modeling your vision in 1:1 scale (i.e., putting the track sections together on the floor!) can help with this process. The better you can carry out the planning process, the less chance you'll have to start over, having hit an unsatisfactory dead-end.

OTOH, the second 'branch' also has its benefits. I call it the "Bob Ross School of layout design," named for the TV painter who made famous the saying, "There are no mistakes, just happy little accidents!" (parenthetically, I can assure you Bob Ross never saw some of the products of _my_ workmanship! ). In other words, don't obsess about planning your 'utimate layout' in one go, just start at the beginning, and let the design evolve as you build it. Sure, there will almost certainly be somewhat less efficiency and more 'wasted' effort, but in truth most of us derive as much satisfaction from the design and building process, even the *re*design and *re*building parts, as we do from the ultimate product. Of course, craftsmanship (meaning, careful measuring up front, and accurate implementation of your vision as the build-out proceeds) always counts toward a satisfactory outcome, but even there, a good craftsman learns as much from his or her 'mistakes' (sorry, Bob!) as they do the successes.

Hope some of my ramblings help you get under way, and avoid unnecessary and frustrating 'dead ends'!


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