# Lionel poor running performance



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

OK, first post, and, not quite sure how to pose this question.

Had Lionel in the 50s, early 60s when I was a kid. Just ran them on the basement floor and, had a lot of fun with them.

About 4-5 years ago, started buying some Lionel on Epay. Got about 10 Locos (mostly mid 50s/60s, one more modern with a DC motor, and, chip in the tender), and a few freight cars, and, some track and switches locally.

Have to say, I am not having so much fun with them. Basically all the Locos work, and, I serviced and lubed them all up. Had to repair a few of the reverse mechanisms, no big deal there.

The problem I have, is slow speed running. Unless the track is absolutely dead nutz level, all of the Locos when running slow (scale freight speeds), even with a small incline (1" over 10 feet) will stall out. If I set them so they don't stall, the speed on the curves is much too high (they stay on the track, but, look silly cornering at those speeds).

Other than isolating the inclines (and declines), and running different voltages to different parts of the track, is there any fix for this?

I have gone so far as to rewire some of the field coils to be parallel (or, in series, I forget which way is normal) with the armature. They run a bit different, but, it didn't solve the problem.

These motors don't seem to produce much torque at low voltage/rpm.

Right now I am looking at ways to re gear them, so, the armature can run about 3-4 times faster for the same Loco speed, which, should solve the problem.

Any help, ideas or suggestions greatly appreciated.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

For staters, I can say PW Lionel does not run at scale speeds. The Scouts are fast heavier engines run better. If you want scale speed go with aare 027 command control system. Lionel or MTH have them. The speeds are programmable. 

That's the way to go for scale speeds. Buy the newer stuff.

I found out how good my engines are by using an incline. I decided against it. You need lots of room and steep inclines don't work that well.

If you have the know how to regear, good luck.

I assume you smoothed out your armatures and have good springs and brushes installed. FOr power thatis the best way. The track must be clean and well used. I do stall when my track is dirty. I tend to run them on the slower side. My curves are 027 so I don't worry about long hauls, the physics forces are against me.

AT last you need power and then some. A good transformer hopefully you have an AC one. The small DC ones will work on the AC though I am not sure how well. They are underpowered for a table and are good only for circles.

These are just my general thoughts on your first post.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'd check the transformer output and the track, too. Make sure that your track is clean, and that all of the track-to-track pins are tight.

If you jump-wire power directly to the loco (pickup rollers, wheels), is there any difference in motor speed?

What about with the shell and drive rods removed? Strip down the motor to bare minimum, and see if there's a difference.

Narrow down possibilities ...

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The primary problem with post war locos and slow running is that the motor design (3 armature poles) results in a 2:1 variation in motor torque as the armature turns. I talked to a motor designer a few months ago about this, and we concluded that gluing some small pieces of sheet steel between the poles would improve the situation. I haven't tried it, but theory predicts it would help. He said to use thin metal. 

The reason the newer locos run well at low speed is that they have 5 poles and a speed control loop. The speed control loop uses either the back EMF from the motor or an encoder. Both the encoder and the back EMF will not work down to zero speed. For that you would need a tachogenerator. Problem is, I can't find any place to put a tach in my locos, nor can I find a way to couple it to the motor. If I could get past these two issues, the rest is easy.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm a command/control guy, and the Legacy and DCS locomotives I have will run down in the 1 scale MPH range all day, and they'll do that up and down grades. I don't think there is any way you'll get that level of performance from conventional operation.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I agree. It requires a closed loop velocity control loop.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If I can push a button ...it works for me.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

OK, thanks for the replies guys. I'll keep working on this, and report back.

I just moved to the country after 47 years in the same house in suburbia. Just getting started on the new layout, which will be along the back side of my Slot Car track. Not the same scale, but, close enough.

Both layouts will have conjoining scenery, and, be part of each other, but, no joining (or crossing) of road way and rail. The Slot Car stuff is all about racing, but, with Model Railway type Scenery.

Also, the way I will build it, I can have pretty dead flat bench work for the Railway part.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can improve the low speed operation of the loco by making sure it is lubed properly. Also, clean and lube the commutator as this is the source of most of the friction. Make sure you clean out the commutator slots. Use 5W20 motor oil. Forget grease, Lionel Lube, light machine oil, WD-40, grease, or anything else. If it turns or slides, lube it. Lube all the car wheels, the couplers, and the bolster than the truck swivels on. If you haven't done this yet, you will be surprised at the improvement.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Did all that stuff even before I ran them. They are all very friction free.

Came up with an idea today. Will try it before I say what it is, just in case :smilie_auslachen:

Seems like it should work though.


----------



## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Not sure what you are using as a transformer but you have to keep in mind that Lionel trains of the 50s, 60, and through the 70's were sold mostly as toys and never intended to run at scale like slow speed. In recent years modern electronics have been implemented to give you that kind of control but operating postwar Lionel trains is more about the fun of operating and collecting than it is about running a scale model railroad.

I reccomend you check out what you have before you destroy a pristine collectible toy train by re-gearing and rewiring. There is lots of scale 2-rail O product out there that looks and operates in a manner you appear to want. Maybe you can find someone to trade your trains with.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Trust me, the ones I have are neither pristine, nor highly collectable.

Most people would consider them parts Locos. And, actually, most of them were purchased as parts engines off Fleebay.

If I wanted Scale O gauge, I would have gone 2 rail and, scratchbuilt my own brass Locos.

All I want to do, is reduce the "Express Train" speed on the bends to a more moderate level. Something I think is do able with a little careful thought.

If I do re gear them, it will be totally bolt on, and, easily put back to original.


----------



## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

For slow running post-war power, you might want to check out a Marx 666, 1666, or other loco with what is called Double Reduction gearing. I have a couple of 666's (die-cast) and a 1666 (plastic) steamers that will run quite steady at a slower pace. Plus they smoke really well too! I don't have any grades so I can't tell you how they do on hills though. 
The locos have been cleaned and lubed. None were expensive to buy. The most I've paid for a 666 was $50, but that included a handfull of cars, track and a transformer! 
If you already have a bunch of Lionel train cars, Marx locos will work with Lionel tenders and pull Lionel cars. I do it all the time.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks Handy guy, I'll have a look into that.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Typically, the newer conventional stuff with can motors run better at slow speed, even in their conventional control models.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Yeah, I know that, I just enjoy the challenge of working with these old clunkers.

I'm just not a new technology guy. I understand steam engines (real ones) a lot better than anything that runs on electrons.hwell:


----------



## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm a command/control guy, and the Legacy and DCS locomotives I have will run down in the 1 scale MPH range all day, and they'll do that up and down grades. I don't think there is any way you'll get that level of performance from conventional operation.



yea, what John said................Mike


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Well, that's what I'm aiming for. Like I said, I love a challenge.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you want a good slow runner, get a 736


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Just scooped a real nice Marx 1666 for 19.99 on that Auction site.

Whats a 763, got a pic???


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

A 736 is a 2-8-4 Lionel steam engine. IMHO, this engine and its brothers are the best post war locos that Lionel made. I don't know what a 763 is?


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

A 763 is just a 736 with dyslexia.

I may have one, got to root through boxes (just moved recently).hwell:


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

BWA said:


> A 763 is just a 736 with dyslexia.
> 
> I may have one, got to root through boxes (just moved recently).hwell:


BWA, do you want to run your PW slow?
simple remove the e units install a diode bridge instead, in use a PWM speed controler is DC signal controlled so you keep the max torque at low voltage.
I will post more information later.
I did it, now I am running 3 rail DC. the slowest speed reached was 0.5 MPH pretty slow.
Andre.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Now, that's funny, a buddy of mine (not a model train guy) told me to do exactly that yesterday.

But, he thought it wouldn't reverse if you did that.

I have one can motored (DC) one (8602 on the cab) looks like none reversing (has a switch under the cab) loco I am trying a gearing conversion on.

My main hobby is Slot Cars. I manufacture and sell parts for them. I also sell DC motors for them. These are a bit small for Loco work, but, should be ok if I get the gearing about 50:1 I think.

There are enough holes already in the two frame plates, that I should be able to mount everything without having to modify anything on the Loco itself. So, easy to put back to original with just a few screws.

The motor is small enough to fit between the frames, fore and aft, like an HO loco. I'll worm drive this to a jack shaft that will use the original gear/motor bracket. Just need another bracket on the other frame plate to support it (the jack shaft).

Should work.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It won't reverse with a diode bridge, it'll always run in one direction. You have to actually swap some leads, even on DC, to reverse the direction of the Pulmore AC motor.


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It won't reverse with a diode bridge, it'll always run in one direction. You have to actually swap some leads, even on DC, to reverse the direction of the Pulmore AC motor.


No, if you use a diode bridge and DC voltage.
the diode bridge just keep the coil field in one direction, so changing the polarity at the transformers the engine will change direction. I am doing that.
Andre.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, you're just using the bridge on the field, not the whole motor. Interesting idea, never saw that done.


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> OK, you're just using the bridge on the field, not the whole motor. Interesting idea, never saw that done.


the whole motor actually.
let me find the diagram and show you. Believe me those old PW run so smooth using DC.








Andre.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

How is the low speed torque with this setup??


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

BWA said:


> How is the low speed torque with this setup??


BWA,
using this set up you can run your motor with DC.
I am using this controller:
http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/motor/CKMX066.htm 
Andre.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

AG216 said:


> the whole motor actually.
> let me find the diagram and show you. Believe me those old PW run so smooth using DC.


Well, actually from that diagram, the track voltage goes directly to the armature and the bridge only feeds the field. That's the reason you can reverse it. If you fed the field and armature from the bridge voltage, it wouldn't reverse.


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, actually from that diagram, the track voltage goes directly to the armature and the bridge only feeds the field. That's the reason you can reverse it. If you fed the field and armature from the bridge voltage, it wouldn't reverse.


Correct.
So you can use any DC from G scale or big transformers for HO scale.
Andre.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

I have a 8-15v 50 amp DC power supply that should do the trick.Gives me lots of power for my slot Car track, should work fine for the trains as well.

Have a 10 amp PMW controller too.

Am about half way through my re-gearing effort, So far has been pretty straight forward. Using slot Car gears axles, motor, and bushings.

If it works, I might do it up as a retro fit kit.


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

BWA, if you are half way I am more than interested to see the work done
Andre


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Will try and get some pics up on the week end.

Original gearing is 8.47:1. My new gearing will be around 50:1

Was hoping for a bit more than that. If I can find a worm gear in my junk, I can get around 300-400:1, which, I think would be better.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BWA, check with Stock Drive. They have every gear you can imagine.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks, really nice site.

I'm more a make do with what I've got kinda guy. Some would say cheap, I think of it more as being resourceful.


----------



## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

That's is where I buy all my stuff.
prices are reasonable and the quality is incredible.
Andre.


----------

