# Train Show



## flyernut

I made a few purchases at yesterday's train show in Syracuse, NY...2 nice, in the box 631 green gondolas @$2 bucks apiece, 10 pieces of black rubber roadbed with nice track, a box full of several engines including a 302AC, which runs superb after I serviced it, and a SIT 312, in MANY pieces, but the smoke unit works as well as the motor. A D&RG vista dome passenger car for my D&RG set, a MTH flat car, NIB, with 2 57 Chevies on it, another 336 large motor Northern for $150, and a box of 20 stain-less steel GarGraves track, each 37" long.. The 302 will be for sale, as well as the rubber roadbed, and possibly the 312SIT, as soon as I tune it up. The GarGraves track is also a possibility.


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## AmFlyer

Sounds like more than a few items came home with you. I must have been a good day.


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## Big Ed

Well not totally worthless, but pictures would be nice.


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## flyernut

Big Ed said:


> View attachment 570358
> 
> 
> Well not totally worthless, but pictures would be nice.


I've been so busy mucking with my new toys I didn't have time for photos...But I knew someone was going to say something, and I was expecting that post you wrote, seen it many times,lol!!!


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## flyernut

Here's some pix...


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## gunrunnerjohn

flyernut said:


> I've been so busy mucking with my new toys I didn't have time for photos...But I knew someone was going to say something, and I was expecting that post you wrote, seen it many times,lol!!!


Ed keeps posting it because it works so well!


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ed keeps posting it because it works so well!


I have not posted one of those in a long time, we don't have one to pick anymore to post.


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## flyernut

I did it on purpose so Big Ed would have something to do,lol!


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## flyernut

Forgot a circle of nice AF wide gauge for my #8 Lionel engine that I screwed up the paint with the oven cleaner mix-up.


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## Big Ed

flyernut said:


> I've been so busy mucking with my new toys I didn't have time for photos...But I knew someone was going to say something, and I was expecting that post you wrote, seen it many times,lol!!!


That was not just a run around the corner ride to the show for you either, huh. Were you the wheelman?

Good goodies, I wonder if they ever offered the flatcar with 55's?
Thanks for posting.


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## Mr_honk_honk

Big Ed said:


> View attachment 570358
> 
> 
> Well not totally worthless, but pictures would be nice.


My image now : )


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## flyernut

Big Ed said:


> That was not just a run around the corner ride to the show for you either, huh. Were you the wheelman?
> 
> Good goodies, I wonder if they ever offered the flatcar with 55's?
> Thanks for posting.


Just over a hour from me, 1-way.. One of my good buddies did the driving, listened to Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden,etc, both ways..Ok by me,lol...He does all the repair work on my O gauge stuff, and I do the work on his AF, works out good for both of us. About those 55's on the flat cars, I don't think MTH ever did.. They do, however, offer late 60's Camaros, Firebirds, and Novas. I think I have 5-6 flat cars with the Novas on it, for obvious reasons, lol.


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## AmFlyer

That is a pretty nice 336, just needs cleaning and a number board. A 1948 and 1952 631, both look to have all the steps. That SIT 312 will keep you busy on some rainy/snowy days.


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## AFGP9

Flyernut I never get tired of seeing pictures of your Nova since is exactly like the one I had. Well maybe I do not want to see it because it reminds me of what at idiot I was to sell mine. 
That 366 looks pretty good. A cleaning and a number board and you are all done. I also especially like that 1248 Rio Grande Dome car. Nice. I'd say you had a good day at the show looking at the rest of your haul. 

Kenny


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## mopac

Neat new stuff flyernut. I missed my big train show. Forgot all about it till one day after the show. It was a close one, maybe 15 minutes away. It is mainly an HO show but last year I did pickup 4 or 5 AF cars. 150.00 for a 336 is a deal.
Clean it up, get it running good, and make a fast hundred or two on it.


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## flyernut

The 336 is missing the draw-bar under the cab, 1 number board, and 1 tender step. It does run, smoke, choo choo, and of course head-light. It is direct wired, but I'm going to change that to a jack-panel. It's funny, all my other Northerns have a jack panel except for this one...The air chime also works, or should I say the pregnant cow sound..


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## flyernut

mopac said:


> Neat new stuff flyernut. I missed my big train show. Forgot all about it till one day after the show. It was a close one, maybe 15 minutes away. It is mainly an HO show but last year I did pickup 4 or 5 AF cars. 150.00 for a 336 is a deal.
> Clean it up, get it running good, and make a fast hundred or two on it.


I looked for the wide radius curves for you but there wasn't any.


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## flyernut

AFGP9 said:


> Flyernut I never get tired of seeing pictures of your Nova since is exactly like the one I had. Well maybe I do not want to see it because it reminds me of what at idiot I was to sell mine.
> That 366 looks pretty good. A cleaning and a number board and you are all done. I also especially like that 1248 Rio Grande Dome car. Nice. I'd say you had a good day at the show looking at the rest of your haul.
> 
> Kenny


I had 67 GTO's, Chevelles, Corvettes, Impalas,442's, Novas, street rods, and even a 40 Willys gasser...what a shame, if only we all had 20/20 vision.


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> That is a pretty nice 336, just needs cleaning and a number board. A 1948 and 1952 631, both look to have all the steps. That SIT 312 will keep you busy on some rainy/snowy days.


All 4 steps on those gondolas. Heck, @ $2 bucks apiece, with box, I couldn't go wrong. The trucks are worth that easily.


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## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> I made a few purchases at yesterday's train show in Syracuse, NY...2 nice, in the box 631 green gondolas @$2 bucks apiece, 10 pieces of black rubber roadbed with nice track, a box full of several engines including a 302AC, which runs superb after I serviced it, and a SIT 312, in MANY pieces, but the smoke unit works as well as the motor. A D&RG vista dome passenger car for my D&RG set, a MTH flat car, NIB, with 2 57 Chevies on it, another 336 large motor Northern for $150, and a box of 20 stain-less steel GarGraves track, each 37" long.. The 302 will be for sale, as well as the rubber roadbed, and possibly the 312SIT, as soon as I tune it up. The GarGraves track is also a possibility.


Flyernut,
I live in Syracuse but had to be away this recent weekend and could not attend the show. I want to expand my collection by building a basic track layout in order to run the engines I purchased last year while confined due to COVID restrictions. This was my first re entrance into model railroading after may years.
I now plan to attend the RIT Tiger Tracks Event in Rochester in early December. I'm looking for a transformer and enough S gauge old style track for a trial run oval. I purchased these sets shown below and built the display cabinet, now hopefully I getting them to run will be as enjoyable as it was locating them.
Steve


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## mopac

Welcome back. Nice cabinet and trains. Missed my local 2 day show last month. Remembered on Monday.


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Flyernut,
> I live in Syracuse but had to be away this recent weekend and could not attend the show. I want to expand my collection by building a basic track layout in order to run the engines I purchased last year while confined due to COVID restrictions. This was my first re entrance into model railroading after may years.
> I now plan to attend the RIT Tiger Tracks Event in Rochester in early December. I'm looking for a transformer and enough S gauge old style track for a trial run oval. I purchased these sets shown below and built the display cabinet, now hopefully I getting them to run will be as enjoyable as it was locating them.
> Steve
> 
> View attachment 571041


All nice engines.Too bad about you not being able to attend Syracuse, there's also one coming up in Utica in January, I believe, of course RIT, and there's one at the Radisson near RIT which is a very good one..A ZW will work very nicely for you, there should be several at RIT.. I have 20 pieces of very nice used GarGraves track I picked up at Syracuse if you're interested, all straight with wood ties, 37" each piece.. I don't know of your expertise in repairing AF, but if any of those engines cause you trouble, I'd be happy to look at them for you, of course no charge.(Except the top engine in your picture, I don't deal with those)..You'll need 12 pieces of original AF track to make a simple circle..I also have 4 original AF turn-outs,(switches), with controllers I'm parting with once you have an idea of what you're going to do as far as a lay-out, again, if you're interested..


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## flyernut

Oh yes, nice cabinet....


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## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> All nice engines.Too bad about you not being able to attend Syracuse, there's also one coming up in Utica in January, I believe, of course RIT, and there's one at the Radisson near RIT which is a very good one..A ZW will work very nicely for you, there should be several at RIT.. I have 20 pieces of very nice used GarGraves track I picked up at Syracuse if you're interested, all straight with wood ties, 37" each piece.. I don't know of your expertise in repairing AF, but if any of those engines cause you trouble, I'd be happy to look at them for you, of course no charge.(Except the top engine in your picture, I don't deal with those)..You'll need 12 pieces of original AF track to make a simple circle..I also have 4 original AF turn-outs,(switches), with controllers I'm parting with once you have an idea of what you're going to do as far as a lay-out, again, if you're interested..


Flyernut, Where are you located?


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Flyernut, Where are you located?


Williamson..14589.


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## AmFlyer

I recommend you have flyernut fix you up with track and turnouts to get started. The turnouts he sells work as good as or better than new, saves a lot of hassles.
The Gargraves flex track interchanges with Gilbert track and helps get trains running quickly. Here is an old picture of a layout I threw together in a few days so I could run some trains. The Gargraves flex sections used as straights are visible. I am almost embarrassed to show these old pictures.


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer,

Your quick build is not in my opinion a minimal entrance to getting some engines to run. In the mid 50s I had the steam engine 300 or 301 (can't recall) with the same cars as shown in my display case - second down from the top. I was initially surprised to find the exact set on ebay but later found AF is very available so I was bitten and bought the other sets. Little did I know back then these other models were available but what does a 10 year old care. I'm sure when my parents bought the 300 for Christmas they were aware of the many more expensive units out there but their budget was limited, they had my three other siblings to buy for as well. I wish they were alive to show them what I found I'm sure it would make for an interesting discussion. I did place in the case a brief story of the AM development of each engine describing it's history and place from the post war 47 AF era. 

The oval I had was approximately 5' long and 3' to 4' wide, probably the standard track layout for the 300 engine set. It included a small transformer, a manual uncoupler along with a revolving search light, a cardboard mountain tunnel with snow that was always falling off, a small station and a box of railroad signs. I have found each of these on ebay but have not moved on building a layout. I'm sure when they purchased the set the salesman found them an easy sell to add these accessories. The entire set fit into a medium size cardboard box, each car had it's yellow and black AF box and the engine and tender was rolled in a corrugated cardboard. The mystery is what happened to that old set, no one in the family can recall. 

Anyway, my interest in the past drives me to consider building a small layout and see the 300 run again. Yours would seem a bit more than I would need, yet I'd expect the desire to expand would come almost immediately. I have the space in the basement but I'm reluctant to take the leap in fear of my addictive behavior. I'm an avid control line model airplane builder and flyer and wonder if I could afford to relinquish my time. I thought attending the recent MRR show here would help steer my interests. I'm sure many others here have experienced similar decisions.

Old Smokey


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> AmFlyer,
> 
> Your quick build is not in my opinion a minimal entrance to getting some engines to run. In the mid 50s I had the steam engine 300 or 301 (can't recall) with the same cars as shown in my display case - second down from the top. I was initially surprised to find the exact set on ebay but later found AF is very available so I was bitten and bought the other sets. Little did I know back then these other models were available but what does a 10 year old care. I'm sure when my parents bought the 300 for Christmas they were aware of the many more expensive units out there but their budget was limited, they had my three other siblings to buy for as well. I wish they were alive to show them what I found I'm sure it would make for an interesting discussion. I did place in the case a brief story of the AM development of each engine describing it's history and place from the post war 47 AF era.
> 
> The oval I had was approximately 5' long and 3' to 4' wide, probably the standard track layout for the 300 engine set. It included a small transformer, a manual uncoupler along with a revolving search light, a cardboard mountain tunnel with snow that was always falling off, a small station and a box of railroad signs. I have found each of these on ebay but have not moved on building a layout. I'm sure when they purchased the set the salesman found them an easy sell to add these accessories. The entire set fit into a medium size cardboard box, each car had it's yellow and black AF box and the engine and tender was rolled in a corrugated cardboard. The mystery is what happened to that old set, no one in the family can recall.
> 
> Anyway, my interest in the past drives me to consider building a small layout and see the 300 run again. Yours would seem a bit more than I would need, yet I'd expect the desire to expand would come almost immediately. I have the space in the basement but I'm reluctant to take the leap in fear of my addictive behavior. I'm an avid control line model airplane builder and flyer and wonder if I could afford to relinquish my time. I thought attending the recent MRR show here would help steer my interests. I'm sure many others here have experienced similar decisions.
> 
> Old Smokey


I do antique cars in the summer, and my trains in the winter, plenty of time for each hobby..I had flyers as a kid, but when I came home from Overseas Service, US Army, Dad sold all the trains. I've replaced all the trains from my youth, and many, many more,lol!!


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## Old smokey 47

flyernut,

Funny how the seasons in the north east drive us hobby wise. I too drift to the basement workshop in the winter to avoid our lake effect punishment as I know you experience as well on the south shore of Lake Ontario. 
I used to fly my homebuilt into Williamson-Sodus on a regular basis for frequent pancake breakfasts, but that's history. I sold the bird and bought a Shelby Cobra kit car for the summer trips to buy ice cream. 

Winter's seem to get shorter and shorter as we get older and older and find spreading our time over multiple interests a problem. Just considering a simple oval but I'm not sure if it's even possible. 

Old Smokey


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## AmFlyer

If by quick you mean just a simple oval, here is a 5’x13’ oval of SHS track on my office floor. Less than 10 minutes from unpacking to power on the track. It can become boring quickly, but the smoke smells good. The Legacy diesels really smoke.


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> flyernut,
> 
> Funny how the seasons in the north east drive us hobby wise. I too drift to the basement workshop in the winter to avoid our lake effect punishment as I know you experience as well on the south shore of Lake Ontario.
> I used to fly my homebuilt into Williamson-Sodus on a regular basis for frequent pancake breakfasts, but that's history. I sold the bird and bought a Shelby Cobra kit car for the summer trips to buy ice cream.
> 
> Winter's seem to get shorter and shorter as we get older and older and find spreading our time over multiple interests a problem. Just considering a simple oval but I'm not sure if it's even possible.
> 
> Old Smokey


I've been to many of those fly-in breakfasts in the past, and I usually drive either my 69 Nova or my all original 39 Chevy Master DeLuxe. On the way out of the airport, I stop and hob-nob with several of the Wayne County Sheriffs Deputies whom I know..Winters can be brutal here!!!!. Any help you might need is here on the forum, great bunch of guys who have vastly more knowledge than I'll ever have!!


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> If by quick you mean just a simple oval, here is a 5’x13’ oval of SHS track on my office floor. Less than 10 minutes from unpacking to power on the track. It can become boring quickly, but the smoke smells good. The Legacy diesels really smoke.
> 
> View attachment 571195





AmFlyer said:


> If by quick you mean just a simple oval, here is a 5’x13’ oval of SHS track on my office floor. Less than 10 minutes from unpacking to power on the track. It can become boring quickly, but the smoke smells good. The Legacy diesels really smoke.
> 
> View attachment 571195


Amflyer,

That's about what I have in mind. Every engine purchase made was based on the engine being in good operable condition, now I'd like to see them run,

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> I've been to many of those fly-in breakfasts in the past, and I usually drive either my 69 Nova or my all original 39 Chevy Master DeLuxe. On the way out of the airport, I stop and hob-nob with several of the Wayne County Sheriffs Deputies whom I know..Winters can be brutal here!!!!. Any help you might need is here on the forum, great bunch of guys who have vastly more knowledge than I'll ever have!!


Do you sell equipment as a hobbyist with a variety available?

Steve


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Do you sell equipment as a hobbyist with a variety available?
> 
> Steve


I sell every once in awhile, but not too often. I try weeding out my less expensive locos such as 301's, 302's,(both versions), 307's, mostly Atlantics, some Pacifics but most of the remainers of them I'm keeping. I also have several 302's,(3), without tenders but run, smoke, choo choo, and light, but run superb. I recently found several plastic tubs of Atlantics that I serviced and then put away, and of course, forgot about them. I have dozens of shells, locos, boxcars, and cabooses, and 4 pairs of turn-outs that have become excess, I still have more,lol!!I'm going to post a new thread with 2 of the engines I picked up at Syracuse..stay tuned...PS. I also have 740' of straight GarGraves track with wooden ties, 37" per section x 20, I'm selling. Retail price on them is approx $15 per section. It's used but hardly noticeable. I'd like to see 1/2 price on that per section if I can get it. I'm going to post it on MarketPlace this evening locally.


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## Old smokey 47

What have you got in the old AF metal track? This is the kind with the stamped black metal ties and stick pins that used to pull out and need to be steel wooled to make conductivity. How much would I need for a 13' long similar to what Amflyer has shown in his photo?


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> What have you got in the old AF metal track? This is the kind with the stamped black metal ties and stick pins that used to pull out and need to be steel wooled to make conductivity. How much would I need for a 13' long similar to what Amflyer has shown in his photo?


Each piece is 10" long, you'll need 15-16 pieces of original Gilbert track.


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## AmFlyer

When I got too bored with the oval I expanded to this. The SHS track I am using is 30”R curves and 15” straights.
To do the original oval which was 60”x 140” with Gilbert track requires 12 curves and 24 straight sections. As flyernut says, each straight is 10” long so you can shorten the oval in 10” increments. For the full 60”x140” you will need two 690 track clips to provide power in two places around the loop to minimize voltage drop.


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## Old smokey 47

Tom,
I am considering the basic oval as you have shown which of course has the option of adding a smaller inside concentric oval with on off switches and possibly a dead end for engine parking if I wanted to expand. I only have experience using the original 10" style metal hollow steel track and have to ask if people recommend staying away from it? What are the optional style S gage tracks now available? 
Steve


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## mopac

Nothing wrong with original AF track. Just not the best looking track. Ties are too far apart. But is
most cost effective. Its what I will be using for my new layout if I ever get it built. Best looking track
might be Gargraves. Another choice could be Fastrak. It has built in roadbed.


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## AmFlyer

I think that unless you are looking to build a scale looking layout the original Gilbert track and turnouts are the best choice. The Gilbert turnouts have a 2-train power routing feature that allows creating sidings and passing tracks that are only powered when the turnouts are thrown to their direction. No additional wiring required.
There are other track systems that work well and look good, the weakness is always the turnouts. FasTrack is the best working and most complete alternative track system but it is very expensive and was really designed for operating command control engines rather than conventional engines.


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## flyernut

I personally know the owners of GarGraves track, and it is very nice stuff. Not that I'm endorsing anyone's products, but it is indeed a good-looking and performing track. It is compatible with original flyer track..You can call them at 1-315-483-6577 during normal business hours. You'll get either Tom or Mike who answer the phones..It comes in straight or curved sectional track as well as flex-track, and also stain-less steel at 37" pieces. Gilbert track is out there in droves, just get the best track you can, less cleaning, etc. I have 3 loops of original Gilbert track at 48' per loop, all on original Gilbert rubber road-bed.. My problem with it is not the track, but not enough power drops per section, which is my fault entirely..As I mentioned before, I have nice, used GarGraves track, straight 37" pieces, and 4 sets of turn-outs with controllers.I'm certainly not trying to sell anyone anything, just putting it out there.. There is nothing wrong with original track, it's cheap, plentiful, and easy to use. Good luck.


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## AmFlyer

I have used a lot of GarGraves flex track with Gilbert turnouts. It makes a great layout. Never used GarGraves sectional track but all reports give it high marks as flyernut says.
Here is a layout I built long ago with GarGraves flex and mostly Gilbert turnouts. It looks good but bending and cutting all those curves takes time. Sectional track would speed up the assembly.


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## AmFlyer

I still recommend using Gilbert track, The cost will be small compared to other alternatives. If using Gilbert track, brighten the track pins by going over them a few times with medium grit sand paper (150 to 200). Then put a very small amount of conductive grease on each pin prior to assembly to prevent oxidation. You will never have any voltage drop problems. Also sand the rail edges and use conductive grease where the 690 track clips are installed. Prior to doing this I was getting a full 1V drop at the 690 connection with 3A. After treatment it was just about zero.


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## Old smokey 47

After my inquiry I did check around and like the looks of the Gargraves over the Fastrack or the original AF track. I wonder why the Gargraves tie wood is not darker to resemble the aged tie timber as found on most actual railbeds? Anyway I guess if one plans to make an initial investment he should have a clear understanding what his goals are for the future of his layout. 

I at this point I can see myself building out a basic layout using the original track. I have looked at a number of videos restoring rusted track which has generated some questions. I would assume much of original track available out there today would have rusted. No where can I find anything about the effects of the Acetic bath on the cardboard insulators or if it's necessary to replace the cardboard and how it's done. Does anyone use an Ohm meter to measure resistance between rails after bath cleaning? What about replacing the pins with new wire instead of relying on the acid to clean the contacting surface? 

Steve


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## AmFlyer

I see no reason for purchasing any track that is so rusted it needs an acid bath. There is plenty of almost new condition track available for minimal cost. I assume you are aware Gilbert track is not plated, therefore it can be sanded as nessesary to brighten the railheads. The webs do not matter. I have close to 1,000 pieces of Gilbert track and none of it has rusted. Never had to replace track pins, the originals are crimped in place and maintain tight, corrosion free contact unless they are sitting in water. The acid bath will also likely remove the dark color on the ties and it will look awful (my opinion.)
The weak spot in the turnouts are the brass sliding contacts, they will oxidize into insulators over 50 years. Flyernut polishes those sliders and contacts to like new when he overhauls the turnouts.
I think the newer GarGraves flex has darker wood ties than the ones I bought back in the 1980's.Their sectional track has dark ties. The main advantage I see with GarGraves sectional is it comes in 4 different radii up to 72" diameter.


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## flyernut

I have 4 boxes of original Gilbert track, both curved and straight, in their original boxes, and all of it is still in very nice condition with no rust..after almost 60+ years.


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## Old smokey 47

Where in the forum is there a thread that explains the method for wiring two engines to operate at the same time on the same layout? 
Also, how does one determine the capacity transformer required for a particular train especially if the cars are lighted and accessories are being powered at the same time.

Steve


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## AmFlyer

Steve, which engines do you want to double head? Or are you not double heading? Is it just two independent loops, each with an engine?


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## AmFlyer

On the other part of your question here are approximate amperages for Gilbert items.
Steam engine with smoke 2.0A
Single motor diesel 1.75A
Two motor Diesel 3.5A
1447 bulb 150ma each
1449 bulb 200ma each
For accessories just add up the light bulbs. For things like whistle billboards, turnouts, uncouplers, talking stations, etc the motors and solenoids can be ignored because they are intermittent loads Track switches are the worst load because each pair of turnouts has 4 bulbs operating continuously totaling 750ma/pair. Four pairs of turnouts will put a 75W transformer just below its rated load. A postwar transformer is rated for input watts at about 70% efficiency. So output wattage is only 53Watts. ALWAYS power turnouts from a separate transformer.
A two motor diesel with 5 illuminated passenger cars is a continuous 75W load. That passenger train and 4 pair of turnouts then totals to 130W continuous ignoring all other loads.


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> On the other part of your question here are approximate amperages for Gilbert items.
> Steam engine with smoke 2.0A
> Single motor diesel 1.75A
> Two motor Diesel 3.5A
> 1447 bulb 150ma each
> 1449 bulb 200ma each
> For accessories just add up the light bulbs. For things like whistle billboards, turnouts, uncouplers, talking stations, etc the motors and solenoids can be ignored because they are intermittent loads Track switches are the worst load because each pair of turnouts has 6 bulbs operating continuously totaling 1.1A/pair. Four pairs of turnouts will put a 75W transformer right at its rated load. ALWAYS power turnouts from a separate transformer.
> A two motor diesel with 5 illuminated passenger cars is a continuous 75W load. That passenger train and 4 pair of turnouts then totals to 150W continuous ignoring all other loads.


A pair of turn-outs would only have 2 bulbs, maybe I'm wrong?


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## AmFlyer

One pair of turnouts is two clear bulbs, one in each lantern and two red/green bulbs in the controller, 4 total. I fixed my post above. Not sure how I counted six!!!


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> One pair of turnouts is two clear bulbs, one in each lantern and two red/green bulbs in the controller, 4 total. I fixed my post above. Not sure how I counted six!!!


Now I see 6,lol..forgot about the controller.


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## Mikeh49

I think Tom had the red and green bulbs on the controller all on at the same time. Impressive how it adds up, though. Especially the 2-motor diesel with 5 cars and a headlight on the dummy A unit. And dragging the B unit and the dummy A as well as the cars. Did any sets come with 5 passenger cars?


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## AmFlyer

Gilbert made both a Santa Fe set and a NP set with A/B/A diesels pulling 5 passenger cars.


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> Steve, which engines do you want to double head? Or are you not double heading? Is it just two independent loops, each with an engine?





AmFlyer said:


> Steve, which engines do you want to double head? Or are you not double heading? Is it just two independent loops, each with an engine?


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer,

I was referring to two independent loops for separate trains, not double headed engines. How is it set up if you want two or more engines running at the same time on their own? I'd expect each loop would require its own controller (transformer) but what if you wanted an engine to move through a switch to an adjacent loop? This is why I was looking for a wiring diagram showing such a configuration. 

BTY this is a photo of the same transformer I had with my basic 300 engine. What transformer is most preferred to use today?















Steve


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## AmFlyer

One of my original set transformers was a #2 as well. The other was a 4B. I discourage using the #2 because it does not have a circuit breaker to protect either itself or the trains in the event of a short circuit or overload. What I used for running two trains on independent but interconnected tracks was a pair of 19B's. They are 300W each but unfortunately a bit pricey. I used 4B's to power the turnouts and accessories. Some operators prefer 8B's because they are inexpensive and easy to find. Another good less expensive alternative is the 15B transformer. I recommend against using dual handle transformers like the 12B, 18B and 30B. The reason is they have interconnected Base Posts inside the transformer that complicates the track wiring. 
If you use two independent transformers wire each loop separately and do not interconnect the Base Posts or use common return wiring. Then all that is necessary is to put all the turnouts in "2-Train" mode and each track is independent. Throwing the turnouts will allow the trains to move from one loop to the other seamlessly as long as the transformer outputs are at approximately the same voltage. You can also include a longer interconnecting loop and by only throwing one of the two turnouts power that interconnecting track with either transformer independently. It can also serve as an unpowered siding.
If a 30B dual control transformer is used then fiber pins are required at several places in the track to interconnect the loops. I have built a lot of interesting multiloop layouts with yards and by using separate transformers have never needed a fiber pin to make them work.
If you want, draw a sketch of the track plan, take a picture and post it. I can then help with how to wire it for multiple trains. Gilbert layouts are much easier in this regard than Lionel because of the power routing turnouts.


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## Old smokey 47

Thanks, this clears up a lot of questions, I'll certainly take up your offer if I decide to create a complicated layout. 
One last question, when a train is passing from one independently powered loop to another I would expect as the engine passes from one power source to another the trailing lighted have a lights out briefly depending upon the speed of the train? Is this why it's best to have equally adjusted power sources?


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## AmFlyer

The reason the transformers should be at approximately the same voltage is they are briefly in parallel with each other and an equalizing current will flow between the two transformers. The voltages can be three volts different with no problem, they only need to be close, not the same.
Below is a picture of a test fit I did of layout #9 in the Gilbert instruction manual. It has two added sidings. In the picture the wires to the 690 track clips are visible, showing how the track is powered.The two loops work independent with turnouts aligned with them. Each of the interconnecting tracks can be independently powered from either transformer by throwing just one turnout. Throwing both turnouts to an interconnecting track allows a train to run seamlessly between the two loops from either transformer or with both transformers on.
The reason I did a test build is I wanted to run some modern AF by Lionel and AM engines on it so I needed to check the clearances. A segment of 30"R SHS track is visible on the right.


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## Old smokey 47

TY


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## Old smokey 47

Well I finally pushed the button and purchased some older Gilbert style track in decent condition to begin the layout.

Question about the power supply, I have a Tech 4 model MRC 260 rectifier which is part of an LGB large G gage under the Christmas tree model train we inherited. The train and power system work well. I would like to know if I can use the same power system for my American Flyer trains. The specs for the 260 are Input: 120 VAC 60 Hz Output: 23VDC, 18.5VAC It does not identify the wattage.

It has 4 terminals, two are marked Variable DC and two Accessories AC. Am I correct American Flyers only use AC power?

Steve


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## mopac

Actually many (most) can run on AC or DC. Your transformer there is DC. if the cab number is followed with DC, it is DC only. AC will fry it in seconds.
Watch your voltage. Max volts for your engines is 14, maybe 15. Your transformer puts out too much so no full throttle runs. 23 volts will cook your Flyers.
Use a volt meter and see how much throttle is 14 volts and that would be your max throttle. I have run a few of mine on DC and saw no difference in performance. Tom, AmFlyer, will tell you which locomotives can run on DC safely. It might be all of them but I would rather let AmFlyer say.


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## Old smokey 47

Mopac,

It's probably too much of a liability to use this transformer on my Flyers due to the possible over voltage damaging the windings. I would guess I can use this DC unit for testing an engine at partial voltage but not on a layout or is this a no no?

Are most Am Flyer transformers out there AC or do I have to be sure they are not a rectifier to DC as is the I have? I also recall reading, the earlier engines (late 40s) were AC and some of the later came out as DC. Apparently the DC ran stronger?? 
Should I determine if some of the engines are DC, apparently the AC followed the number. This all seems confusing. 
Steve


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## AmFlyer

Any postwar S gauge engine made by Gilbert will run on DC. All engines except some 4-8-4 Northerns and 0-8-0 switchers made in 1947 through 1950 will run on AC. The cab number is not reliable in this regard. For example engines stamped 332 or 342 can have either a DC permanent magnet motor or a universal motor. It is easy to tell which motor it has by tuning the engine up side down and looking at the motor. If it has DC on the cab as part of the number it is DC only. There are no AC only engines. All diesels were made with universal motors.
I would not use that Power Pack, The output voltage is way too high. Max voltage for a Gilbert motor is 16V intermittent, 14V continuous if operated on DC. All Gilbert transformers are AC. Gilbert made a few DC Rectiformers, they are distinctive by labeling and also because they have a large vacuum tube sticking up through the case. Working ones are very rare.


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## mopac

I would suggest you just ask here if you are not sure about what to run a certain engine on.

List your engines here and Tom or myself will help. LOL, thats what we do.

I used to use an American Flyer transformer. Every AF transformer I have seen is AC. Well. that is not
true. I see AF HO DC transformers. Ask here before you buy one to make sure.
I now use a Lionel ZW transformer. Every AF transformer I have seen is 7 to 15 volts variable.
My Lionel ZW is 2 to 18 volts. I like to run my trains slow most of the time. 7 volts is almost half speed
right off the bat. 2 volts is better (for me). My ZW has 4 throttles. And will cost around $150.00.
Many of the guys here use AF transformers, some use Lionel.

Tom, what is minimum watt transformer he should look at.


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## mopac

Do not worry about Flyers being a little confusing. You will not be an expert in the next week or so.
Go slow till you learn most of the basics. I have been into Flyers for the last 4 or 5 years. I can do most of the repairs, BUT NOT ALL. Do not remove the big driver wheels. They have to be quartered before reinstalling. It takes special tools
that I do not have. Most Flyers are 70 or more years old. It takes time to get in tune with these old girls. With proper service they can run like new. My pride and joy is a Flyer that was given to me used in 1955. It was new in 1952. It
truly runs like new. I have great memories being on the floor with my dad and running that train. Dad enjoyed it as much
as I did. In the last 4 or 5 years I have amassed around 40 Flyers. Way more than I need.


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## AmFlyer

I went back and looked at the picture Steve posted with the nice train sets in the display cabinet. There is a variety of small and large steamers, some passenger cars and a two motor diesel with three passenger cars. That 364 diesel passenger set is the largest current/wattage draw in the cabinet. That set will require 50W to run properly. Remember that all post war transformers are rated on input wattage and the number I am providing is output wattage. Post war transformers are right around 70% efficient so that 75W #2 transformer Steve has is the absolute minimum for the dual motor passenger set.
All that said, I would not buy less than a 100W transformer. Those are plentiful and not expensive. Mopac brings up a good point about the 7V minimum start voltage of a Gilbert transformer versus the 2V of a (much more expensive) Lionel ZW. I find less than about 5V useless with Gilbert trains since the reverse unit will not cycle with less voltage. AM engines are a completely different story. I run Gilbert engines with a Lionel ZW-L ($$$$$) which has a zero start voltage. What happens is with the chopped waveform the engine starts running at 2V and the train can run many laps around the layout with the reverse unit not cycling because of the low voltage. When I speed up the train then the RU will cycle to neutral. 
Anyhow, buy at least a 100W transformer.


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## Old smokey 47

Gents,

Thanks much for the responses, I will create a listing of the current drives for each engine with cab numbers to help you identify the recommended power system. Your responses helped clear up my confusion.

I did check out the Lionel transformers on-line based on your suggestions. It appears the availability of what looks to be quality Lionel transformers over Am Flyer is much better, especially the ZW series. The big question is how does one know if a 70 year old transformer from an on-line estate sale is worth the money and will last? There is an upcoming train show in the area in two weeks, I'm wondering if may have a better chance at buying something from a seller in person. Your thoughts?

The tracks are due to arrive 12/6, I'm now considering what I want to do for a table vs an on the floor layout. Guess I'll just get something running first. I have ample space in one end of the basement and of course I did receive approval to set something up from the War Board. LOL!!

Steve


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## mopac

If you were to buy a ZW online.
1. It works
2. Recently serviced
3. Updated with a modern circuit breaker

I got all that with mine. The original breaker takes 10 seconds to blow.
A modern breaker takes 2 or 3 seconds. They are not that hard to work on.
#1 is most important. You can do the rest with some instructions, but I would not pay
over $100.00.


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## AmFlyer

If buying a Lionel PW transformer for Gilbert trains I would recommend you get the ZW, not any other Lionel transformers. If you get Gilbert transformers The 8B is popular and easy to find. The 4B is good but many operators do not like the handle design. These are both 100W. The 15B is next up at 110W with the deadman's handle. They are not very expensive. The top single control Gilbert transformer is the 19B with 300W. These are more expensive when available.
Looking at more modern transformers I have used the MRC AH101, dual outputs, 270W output power (all modern transformers are output rated.) These have tethered walkaround remotes, momentum and adjustable start voltage. The ultimate transformer made today is the ZW-L with 620W output and four built in Powermasters for Legacy control.


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## mopac

I have to agree with AmFlyer. The ZW-L is the Ultimate modern transformer. The only problem with them is they retail for around $900.00 new. Not many used around. I am kicking myself for missing a ZW-L Black Friday special 2 years ago for around $600.00 new. I am happy with my ZW. Rated at 275w spread over 4 throttles. The ZW-L has meters on the transformer for amps and volts. It also has a lighted front. And lots more power than my ZW. Actually nothing that would make my trains run better but I hope to have a ZW-L someday. LOL, I like the meters and lights.

Yes the ZWs are as old as our Flyers. I really do not hear of ZWs breaking down. Some may
need a new chord. This is common for an old transformer.


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## Old smokey 47

Good to know info on the transformers, I'll lock these recommendations in as part of my search. I will say I'm in the $75.00 to $100.00 market, thanks.

1. 300 Reading Lines 4-4-2
2. 312 Pacific 4-6-2 Smoke in tender 
3. 282 Chicago North Western 4-6-2 Smoke in engine













4. 322 NYC Hudson 4-6-4 Smoke in engine


















































5. 322AC Northern Union Pacific 4-8-4 Smoke in engine
6. ALCO 360-364 Dual motor in 360 engine 
7. 21165 Erie Casey jones Series 2-4-2 

Ok here's the engine photos if someone can identify the proper operating current. Thanks much!!


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## AmFlyer

The 300 is the 1952 version, note the longer 3-spring tender trucks. With no smoke unit this will draw low current, probably 1.5A at about 10V to run fast. so less than a 25W total transformer demand. The 21165 Erie is about the same.
The 364 Alco PA/PB set I discussed above. Including the three passenger cars it draws 50W.
The 1951 332AC, the 1948 322 and the 1953 282 draw the same wattage, about 2A at 12V, so 25W plus the passenger cars. That would be 35W for a 3 car passenger train. The 1947 312 SIT will draw about 2.5A @ 12V (30W) because of the second motor in the tender.


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## Old smokey 47

Tom,

You previously sent the following: Any postwar S gauge engine made by Gilbert will run on DC. All engines except some 4-8-4 Northerns and 0-8-0 switchers made in 1947 through 1950 will run on AC. The cab number is not reliable in this regard. For example engines stamped 332 or 342 can have either a DC permanent magnet motor or a universal motor. It is easy to tell which motor it has by tuning the engine up side down and looking at the motor. If it has DC on the cab as part of the number it is DC only. There are no AC only engines. All diesels were made with universal motors.

I did not open the bottoms of any engine to see if the motor is DC or a universal style. By your statement I assume most Gilbert Am flyer and Lionel transformers are AC output. Am I also to assume every engine I have including the 332AC Northern will run on AC current? 

Steve


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## AmFlyer

Correct, all Gilbert S gauge engines will run on DC. All Gilbert engines will also run on AC with these exceptions: engines with cab numbers 332DC, 334DC and 342DC; some engines with cab numbers 332 and 342 made from 1947 through 1950. Nothing needs to be removed from a 332 or 342 to determine if it has a universal or permanent magnet field motor. Enough of the field assembly can be seen from the back and underside of the cab to determine this. If a 342 has 5 wires between the engine and tender it is the hard to find 1952 version with the universal motor. Below are pictures of each field assembly for visual confirmation purposes.
All postwar Lionel and Gilbert transformers output AC. Gilbert made only two DC powerpacks for S gauge, the #14 and #16 labeled as Electronic Rectiformers. The vacuum tube rectifier is visible and these are not very common. Gilbert made several different HO DC powerpacks, they are clearly labeled as HO and again are not very common.
Steve, all of your engines have universal motors with the wound field coil, second picture below.


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## AmFlyer

Steve, for completeness the 360 PA unit has two motors with this field and armature. The diesel motor design is a real PITA to service or repair. This was Gilbert’s first use of a skewed pole armature design.


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## Old smokey 47

Tom, this clears up a great deal. 

I'm looking at a Gilbert 17B 190 Watt with circuit breaker transformer. Any disadvantages of the 17B vs the 16B without the circuit breaker?

Steve


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## AmFlyer

If you found a nice 17B get it. The 17B was 1952 only, it was the same as the 19B only a lower power rating. It has the volt and amp meters like the 19B. The 16B was introduced in 1953 and was a 17B without the volt and amp meters. Any transformer with a "B" suffix has an internal breaker.


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## Old smokey 47

Also curious about a dual controller 18B 180 watt unit. Does this mean the transformer has a max output of 180 watts (90 watts per train) or 180 watts each train?

Steve


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## AmFlyer

The 1953 catalog lists the 18B as 190W, the 1954 and 1955 catalogs list the 18B as 175W. The Gilbert service manual dated July 23, 1954 states 190W. I think they all used the same core so I am not sure of the correct rating. In any event the rating is the total capacity for all four outputs (two variable voltage posts and two fixed voltage posts.) Each variable handle can output up to 70% of 1/2 of the transformer rating, less any loads connected to the fixed 15V terminals. The 70% converts from input wattage to output wattage. At 190W rating each handle can output up to 67W.
As an example, if two pairs of turnouts are connected to a fixed terminal they use 12W of the 67W leaving only 55W to run a train. These wattage are also continuous loads. For short term hill climbing or just starting long trains the transformer will supply 25% to 50% more than these numbers, at least until the breaker trips.
I would not buy an 18B. I am also not a fan of the more powerful 30B either. With the common Base Posts they needlessly complicate setting up the track for multiple train operation. The track requires additional Fiber pins to work that are not required with separate transformers. The Base Post wiring for Gilbert layouts should always be separate unlike with Lionel setups.
Steve, I hope this helps and is not confusing.


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## Old smokey 47

Tom,
It makes perfect sense, the 18B I'd guess was probably popular for lighter wattage models running simultaneously on the same layout (separate tracks). But like you said the added intermittent load for start up and hill climbing and of course powering turnoffs on the base posts would place the transformer well under capacity. 

The key I'm grasping here is clearly knowing the total wattage load for each train while appreciating the limiting 70% output efficiency of the driving transformer. For now I'm only planning a single track, but it's good to understand the limits of dual transformers. So I plan to push the button on the 17B 190 watt to be used for an individual track with say a 4B for the accessories. 

Thanks for clearing this up.
Steve


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## AmFlyer

Steve, here is a picture that shows most of the control panel for my Christmas 1991 layout. Note the two large 300W 19B transformers with the volt and amp meters. One ran the outer loop and one ran the inner loop. To the left is a 15B transformer that ran the 4 track yard off the picture to the left as well as the two yard leads. To the right, adjacent to a 19B is a grey case 4B. This powered all the accessories, turnouts and lights. The turnouts were on the variable post set to 12V, all the voltage that is required when the turnouts are well maintained and lubricated. The turnout lanterns used 22V replacement bulbs to minimize current draw and heat buildup. The accessories were on the fixed 15V post.
This layout is a bit more complicated than this picture shows and it is more than the single loop you are initially building. The point of the picture is with a 17B and a 4B you are off to a good start.


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## mopac

Steve, you have a nice stable of locomotives. A 282 is an engine I received in 1955.
They are normally good running engines. Mine ran slow and very very hot. Turned out
it had a bad armature. Runs fast and great now. And it runs cool.


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## Old smokey 47

mopac said:


> Steve, you have a nice stable of locomotives. A 282 is an engine I received in 1955.
> They are normally good running engines. Mine ran slow and very very hot. Turned out
> it had a bad armature. Runs fast and great now. And it runs cool.


Mopac,
Once I receive the 17B I bought yesterday I can test these engines. I have never applied power to any after acquiring them last year. I did look for the words running or operating before buying each but hey you never know what your getting on line. I plan to perform the cleaning and lubing process I found on a video before trying to run them. The process begins.
Steve


----------



## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> Steve, here is a picture that shows most of the control panel for my Christmas 1991 layout. Note the two large 300W 19B transformers with the volt and amp meters. One ran the outer loop and one ran the inner loop. To the left is a 15B transformer that ran the 4 track yard off the picture to the left as well as the two yard leads. To the right, adjacent to a 19B is a grey case 4B. This powered all the accessories, turnouts and lights. The turnouts were on the variable post set to 12V, all the voltage that is required when the turnouts are well maintained and lubricated. The turnout lanterns used 22V replacement bulbs to minimize current draw and heat buildup. The accessories were on the fixed 15V post.
> This layout is a bit more complicated than this picture shows and it is more than the single loop you are initially building. The point of the picture is with a 17B and a 4B you are off to a good start.
> 
> View attachment 572081


Tom,
Wow that was 30 years ago and you joined the forum in 2012. Why do I think you were born in a rail coach or something LOL. 

Not only can I appreciate your point of using the various individual transformers to operate the full layout but I notice what appears to be a switch panel(s). Are these something you created or are they a factory brand? Most importantly where's the room for the Christmas presents?

Lastly, I haven't seen tinsel on a tree for years; I recall we did have it in the late 70's when the boys were very young. My parents gobbed it on the tree along with the bubble lights when I was a kid in the 50s. Don't know if it's still available but it sure brings back fond memories. It was under such a tree I found my 300 Reading set similar to the set second down in the display cabinet. Still wish I knew where that old set disappeared to. College, army, marriage and parents downsizing things get lost. 

Steve


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Mopac,
> Once I receive the 17B I bought yesterday I can test these engines. I have never applied power to any after acquiring them last year. I did look for the words running or operating before buying each but hey you never know what your getting on line. I plan to perform the cleaning and lubing process I found on a video before trying to run them. The process begins.
> Steve


Be sure to add a few drops of smoke fluid down the smoke stack into the smoke chamber. You don't want to run the engine with a dry smoke unit..Videos are great, but don't forget to re-surface the armature, that is, make it flat. Polishing it with a pencil eraser or such will clean it, but you should re-surface the face. I do it by chucking up the armature in my drill press and hold a piece of 400 grit paper on it, then go down to a 2000 to really polish it.


----------



## mopac

Steve, have fun trying out your engines. Any problems just ask here. I too have engines I have not run yet.
Here is something I have learned buying online. If seller says untested you can bet it was tested and it does not run.
Since I have learned somewhat on how to work on them that does not bother me. I just want all the parts there.


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## mopac

Listen to flyernut. Everything I know about Flyers I learned from flyernut.
I consider him the best Flyer mechanic. 30 years of experience. I call him
my Flyer Guru. I bugged the heck out of him with PMs when I started buying
Flyers. The PMs have slowed up recently. He is the only one I would send one of my Flyers to
if I can not fix it.


----------



## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> Be sure to add a few drops of smoke fluid down the smoke stack into the smoke chamber. You don't want to run the engine with a dry smoke unit..Videos are great, but don't forget to re-surface the armature, that is, make it flat. Polishing it with a pencil eraser or such will clean it, but you should re-surface the face. I do it by chucking up the armature in my drill press and hold a piece of 400 grit paper on it, then go down to a 2000 to really polish it.


Flyernut,

I have read this as well, can we use mineral oil or must I buy some at $15.00 for a 2 oz. bottle? I believe your supposed to carefully clean out the grooves on the armature following finishing the surface.

Thanks


----------



## Old smokey 47

mopac said:


> Listen to flyernut. Everything I know about Flyers I learned from flyernut.
> I consider him the best Flyer mechanic. 30 years of experience. I call him
> my Flyer Guru. I bugged the heck out of him with PMs when I started buying
> Flyers. The PMs have slowed up recently. He is the only one I would send one of my Flyers to
> if I can not fix it.


And he is not far down the road from where I live.


----------



## Old smokey 47

Old smokey 47 said:


> Flyernut,
> 
> I have read this as well, can we use mineral oil or must I buy some at $15.00 for a 2 oz. bottle? I believe your supposed to carefully clean out the grooves on the armature following finishing the surface.
> 
> Thanks


This brings up a question, I have to believe many engines were run in their day w/o oil in the smoke unit. What damage can occur?


----------



## AmFlyer

Steve, everything on that control panel was made by Gilbert, they are just the standard controllers that came with each accessory. What you do not want to see is the mess of wiring under the layout to make all those controllers work. Just the interlocking to prevent mainline trains from T-boning a train crossing from the yard required 18 connections.
I recommend you get some smoke fluid rather than use mineral oil. Old wicks can sometimes be softened with solvent. Sometime they work just fine despite their age. Put in 10 to 12 drops of smoke fluid about 5 minutes before running the engine. It will take a little track time and some higher voltage settings to get some engines to smoke.


----------



## mopac

flyernut is correct about putting some smoke fluid down the smoke stack. Into the smoke tube.
If you don't very possible of burning the wick wire in half. Maybe the wick. Then you have to rebuild
the smoke unit. You should be able to get a bottle of smoke fluid for about half of what you posted
at a local train or hobby shop. Most any smoke fluid is universal. The shops around here all have Lionel
and that is fine. You can dial in what fluid you like later. Using mineral oil or something not for trains
can gum up your smoke units. When my dad and I would run out of smoke fluid he would put 3 In 1 oil
down the stack. It worked but gummed the smoke unit. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Flyernut,
> 
> I have read this as well, can we use mineral oil or must I buy some at $15.00 for a 2 oz. bottle? I believe your supposed to carefully clean out the grooves on the armature following finishing the surface.
> 
> Thanks


Any good hobby shop should have fluid for you. At the train show last weekend, I saw the small, eye-dropper bottles for $5.99, and the large, beer can size going for $15.99..and yes on those grooves...


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> And he is not far down the road from where I live.


Ok, I'll bite,lol..Where are ya??


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> This brings up a question, I have to believe many engines were run in their day w/o oil in the smoke unit. What damage can occur?


You would probably burn out the nichrome wire and/or the wick material.


----------



## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> Ok, I'll bite,lol..Where are ya??


Syracuse, You said you are in Williamson, NY. We discussed your attending the pancake breakfasts at Williamson-Sodus recall? Are you going to Tiger Tracks?

Steve


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Syracuse, You said you are in Williamson, NY. We discussed your attending the pancake breakfasts at Williamson-Sodus recall? Are you going to Tiger Tracks?
> 
> Steve


I remember now,lol..I probably won't be going to RIT, low on cash because of Christmas.. Both my younger son and my wife are graduates of RIT.


----------



## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> I remember now,lol..I probably won't be going to RIT, low on cash because of Christmas.. Both my younger son and my wife are graduates of RIT.


You should ask them for a loan LOL. I'm going to go out of sheer curiosity. Who knows I may buy more Gilbert track and some turnoffs to spice up my first layout. 
Steve


----------



## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> Steve, everything on that control panel was made by Gilbert, they are just the standard controllers that came with each accessory. What you do not want to see is the mess of wiring under the layout to make all those controllers work. Just the interlocking to prevent mainline trains from T-boning a train crossing from the yard required 18 connections.
> I recommend you get some smoke fluid rather than use mineral oil. Old wicks can sometimes be softened with solvent. Sometime they work just fine despite their age. Put in 10 to 12 drops of smoke fluid about 5 minutes before running the engine. It will take a little track time and some higher voltage settings to get some engines to smoke.


Tom,

It appears you have a bank of similar controllers typical of what's shown below. Did you gang them, are they fastened together in some manner? Seems to me I've seen where some folks build a schematic switch panel using toggles and push buttons to operate their layout. Going back to your Christmas tree layout and the "mess of wiring" you mention where is it all, your set was laying directly on the floor? I am no stranger to complicated control wiring, making it all come together is the







fun part.
Steve


----------



## AmFlyer

That layout in the picture is one of just a few that I built that sits directly on the floor. Most of the Christmas layouts were on 18" legs so I could lay under them for wiring. The floor layout was built in pre planned steps First the layout structure frame was built from 1"x6" boards, 1"x4" supports on 2' centers and 1/2" plywood for the top. I used a hole saw on the drill to put a row 2" diameter holes where the control panel would be to feed through all the wires leaving the control panel.
The track was the laid out, cut to fit where needed, then fastened to the layout. I put temporary casters on the back of the layout so I could roll it around on its side. I then wired it all with the layout on edge, made it really easy. I stapled the wires to the underside of the 1"x4" braces so they would not hang down. when all the wiring was in place the layout was set in position and the casters removed.
The control panel is just a sloped board with holes drilled for wires and screws. Each controller is individually mounted.
Here are some additional older pictures that show the control panel. Just FYI, my larger permanent layout has no physical controls. Just a Cab 2 hand held and an iPad operates everything.


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> You should ask them for a loan LOL. I'm going to go out of sheer curiosity. Who knows I may buy more Gilbert track and some turnoffs to spice up my first layout.
> Steve


Be careful with turn-outs, you don't know what you'll get. I have 4 prs with controllers and a single with the box for sale, all work and light.


----------



## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> Be careful with turn-outs, you don't know what you'll get. I have 4 prs with controllers and a single with the box for sale, all work and light.


Sounds interesting, I may need some track as well. After I receive the track I ordered early next week I can more easily decide on what I need. If we decide to do business I could pick things on on my return trip to Syracuse.


----------



## mopac

I have bought turnouts from flyernut before. Just like his locomotives, his turnouts work.


----------



## Old smokey 47

Can we switch tracks for a moment.... I have looked online at methods to fabricate railroad tables and I have some questions. 
First, building with a foam top over the raw plywood decking. I suspect the wood is more ideal for fastening (screwing) the gilbert track while foam works best for gluing down plastic or rubber road beds? I do see where the foam can be desirable when attaching scenery. What's recommended for the Gilbert track if someone later wanted to finish the layout? 

Second, presently I'm considering a free standing 6' x 10' starter table on a smooth concrete floor. I envision wanting to move the table occasionally, has anyone used casters?

Third, my basement is clean and dry but what about normal dust fall out? Has anyone ever used a light overhead frame with poly covering that can be lowered on light duty string pulleys to keep the layout dust free? I have about a 9' clearance to the bottom of the overhead joists to store the cover well out of the way when not in use. Of course obscuring the overhead lighting is a concern.

Lastly I want to build a table that can be dismantled if down the road I wanted to sell it or give it to one of the kids (grandkids) - most probably the latter. I'm considering building the table in 6' x 5' sections with removable legs that can easily be added to or carried out. What are your thoughts on making the frame sections out of plywood with 6" webs and 3" lightening holes throughout instead of solid dimension fir and attaching the sections with blind nuts and hex cap screws? Are there any designs out there I could refer to?

Please pick away, all responses will be appreciated, we're rolling here!

Steve


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## BigGRacing

I have casters on my layout and they work fine for me.


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## Old smokey 47

BigGRacing said:


> I have casters on my layout and they work fine for me.


How big is your layout?


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## AmFlyer

Sorry, but one more diversion prior to layout construction. Above I posted some old school control panels. Below are two pictures of a modern iPad based control panel. These can either be a track mimic or just a screen full of control buttons. I posted one of each from my layout.


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## AmFlyer

For a 6'x10' layout it is possible to put casters on the legs and move it around. Each leg will also need to be well braced in two directions. I recommend two of the casters have locks to stop the layout from moving if someone leans against it. A layout is heavy, get casters rated for at least 100 pounds. The layout picture I posted above with the snow effect has a foam top over plywood. To attach the rubber roadbed to the foam I used two sided carpet tape it bound the track to the foam and I could even stand the layout on end without the track falling off. I did it this way because it was quicker and not intended to be a "permanent " layout.
If there is an unfinished floor above the layout dust will be a problem. Some have minimized that issue by painting the underside of the upper floor and joists. Most common color used seems to be black.


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> For a 6'x10' layout it is possible to put casters on the legs and move it around. Each leg will also need to be well braced in two directions. I recommend two of the casters have locks to stop the layout from moving if someone leans against it. A layout is heavy, get casters rated for at least 100 pounds. The layout picture I posted above with the snow effect has a foam top over plywood. To attach the rubber roadbed to the foam I used two sided carpet tape it bound the track to the foam and I could even stand the layout on end without the track falling off. I did it this way because it was quicker and not intended to be a "permanent " layout.
> If there is an unfinished floor above the layout dust will be a problem. Some have minimized that issue by painting the underside of the upper floor and joists. Most common color used seems to be black.


Or just tack poly to the rafters to catch any fall out from ceiling movement above and install a portable air scrubber to reduce ambient dust. Either way we hope the layout wont look like a dust ball in a year or two. Possibly also blow it off periodically with compressed air.

The Gilbert 17B arrived, volt meter tested it, looks to be ready to go. Waiting on the track.

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

Well gents the Gilbert track arrived yesterday, I was impressed with the lot it was rust free and looked like new, I found a good deal. I attached the 17B transformer and the 300 would not run. I have never run any of the trains in the display case. Placing the engine in a cushioned cradle I carefully removed the armature and discovered a feed wire to the stator was broken off. I actually removed the entire wheel drive carriage to have better access to the wiring. I cleaned the drive gear of old grease and re lubed, oiled the wheel axles, cleaned the metal contact wheels on the tender using 400 grit and soldered the feed wire. Success, the 70 year old engine ran and pulled it's little red caboose once again. Very cool! 
Now onward to see about getting each of the other engines to run as well. 

So from this I have a question after looking closely at the Gilbert track. I'm curious how they formed the sheet steel I beam rail especially the curved sections and get it to come out straight. It would have had to be 1940s machine technology. Any thoughts?

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> I went back and looked at the picture Steve posted with the nice train sets in the display cabinet. There is a variety of small and large steamers, some passenger cars and a two motor diesel with three passenger cars. That 364 diesel passenger set is the largest current/wattage draw in the cabinet. That set will require 50W to run properly. Remember that all post war transformers are rated on input wattage and the number I am providing is output wattage. Post war transformers are right around 70% efficient so that 75W #2 transformer Steve has is the absolute minimum for the dual motor passenger set.
> All that said, I would not buy less than a 100W transformer. Those are plentiful and not expensive. Mopac brings up a good point about the 7V minimum start voltage of a Gilbert transformer versus the 2V of a (much more expensive) Lionel ZW. I find less than about 5V useless with Gilbert trains since the reverse unit will not cycle with less voltage. AM engines are a completely different story. I run Gilbert engines with a Lionel ZW-L ($$$$$) which has a zero start voltage. What happens is with the chopped waveform the engine starts running at 2V and the train can run many laps around the layout with the reverse unit not cycling because of the low voltage. When I speed up the train then the RU will cycle to neutral.
> Anyhow, buy at least a 100W transformer.


Tom,
I cleaned and lubed and re greased my twin motor 360 diesel and it runs good. I also cleaned (lightly sanded all the metal wheels including the engine) and lubed each of the lighted cars, everything free wheels with no drag. The train, however, seems a bit overloaded with all the cars, it can pull them around but not with the speed it has unloaded. You said with all the lighted cars it should draw 75amps. The 17B 190 watt transformer should have no problem handling the load even considering the 70% eff. factor. I did clean the gilbert track pins and applied a light die electric grease, I also lightly sanded and cleaned the rails, the track is rust free. I opened the companion sound car to inspect the speaker and wiring. I am not impressed with the sound, its a gravelly noise. What is the amp draw of the speaker system? Could it be causing unnecessary draw? I'm tempted to disengage it, it'd have to detach a wire there's no shut off switch. I am running on a small oval track which I realize creates drag compared to a straight run. The drive wheels on the engine appear secure with minimal play in the axels. I'm not sure how to check resistance of the series wound motors or check the brushes without taking apart the brass housing and stator which I don't want to do. The brushes appear to be held in place properly and I did clean the copper armature faces using a dry solvent and a swab. 
Your thoughts?
Steve


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## TimmyD

Old smokey 47 said:


> Tom,
> I cleaned and lubed and re greased my twin motor 360 diesel and it runs good. I also cleaned (lightly sanded all the metal wheels including the engine) and lubed each of the lighted cars, everything free wheels with no drag. The train, however, seems a bit overloaded with all the cars, it can pull them around but not with the speed it has unloaded. You said with all the lighted cars it should draw 75amps. The 17B 190 watt transformer should have no problem handling the load even considering the 70% eff. factor. I did clean the gilbert track pins and applied a light die electric grease, I also lightly sanded and cleaned the rails, the track is rust free. I opened the companion sound car to inspect the speaker and wiring. I am not impressed with the sound, its a gravelly noise. What is the amp draw of the speaker system? Could it be causing unnecessary draw? I'm tempted to disengage it, it'd have to detach a wire there's no shut off switch. I am running on a small oval track which I realize creates drag compared to a straight run. The drive wheels on the engine appear secure with minimal play in the axels. I'm not sure how to check resistance of the series wound motors or check the brushes without taking apart the brass housing and stator which I don't want to do. The brushes appear to be held in place properly and I did clean the copper armature faces using a dry solvent and a swab.
> Your thoughts?
> Steve


I know this isn't directed at me, but if you are having trouble getting speed only when the lighted cars are attached, I might try leaving the lighted cars on the track but uncoupled to the engine and see how your speed is. If one of the cars has leakage across the insulated truck, than I think it will rob power from the system/engine. If you did find that it runs slower with lit cars on the track but uncoupled, you should be able to check each individual car by setting it on unconnected track section and measuring the resistance from one rail to the other. If a particular lit car has a particularly low resistance, it may be robbing the system of power. I am a newbie, this is all speculative, but fits with my knowledge of electricity and these trains, though I have no actual experience with this in a train other than having a direct short across the tracks causing a no-run condition. With a small transformer (50W), I get nothing in this condition. With a powerful transformer, you may still be able to drive the voltage with a high leakage accross a troublesome car.
2 cents for what it is worth,
TimmyD


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## AmFlyer

Steve, I think a typo snuck into your post, it was not 75AMPS!. Anyhow, I think there may be a few things happening here that is causing the engines to run slower loaded.
First, it is normal for a diesel to run slower with several cars attached than on its own. If you have 4 lighted cars they will draw maybe 3/4 (.75) amps. The 17B will handle that with ease.
I find the horn/whistle controller to be a source of voltage drop so I do not wire the controller into the track circuit. The horns sound awful to me so I do not use them. The amperage draw by the horn is insignificant. As you pointed out, the amount of slowdown is partially determined by wheel/track mechanical resistance. For example a train slows down more going around a 20"R curve than around a 30"R curve that has easements and superelevation.
The most significant contributor may be weak brush pressure on the commutator. Over the years the brushes wear and are shorter and the springs weaken. This can be tested by running the engine chassis only and lightly squeezing on the brushes to see if the motor speeds up. Be very careful, the brushes are hot and it is easy to burn finger tips. The fix is to increase the brush pressure by slightly bending the brush holders. The springs can be carefully bent as well. Alternatively get replacement brush assemblies and springs, bending the new brushes slightly before installing them. I seem to recall Mopac posted about doing this a year or two ago.
This and more is why the Gilbert diesels stay on the shelf or in the set boxes and American Models and Lionel AF diesels are on my layout. To routinely run the Gilbert diesels (unless they are 5 digit high value collectibles) I feel to is worth the cost to have can motors installed with an electronic reverse unit.


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## BigGRacing

Old smokey 47 said:


> How big is your layout?


10 x 10 C shaped layout


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## flyernut

If you do get new brushes for your diesel, get the pre-assembled ones...


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## alaft61ri

This was a great conversation just reading I learned a lot. Thanks and good luck old smokey you have some nice engines there . And good luck with the boss.lol


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## Old smokey 47

Timmy D, Tom and others - Response to my Diesel ALCO 360 questions. 

I placed all the lighted chrome passengers on the track and separately ran the 360 engine, there was no change in speed. Tom, BIG typo - 75 amp motor, I better be on 3 phase power. BTW the track layout oval is only about 4' x 6', I have purchased more track and a set of turnoffs that should arrive any day. I've begun considering what layout to decide on, presently the track is on painted concrete floor. 

So here's what I discovered why the 360 engine doesn't have power. Looking closely I noticed the front engine armature to stator spacing was not concentric, fortunately they were not in contact or rubbing. The armature bearings on both engines are good there is no slop I could see so the armature stator clearance was not wear related. Using the two adjusting screws on the each side of the brass stator frame I brought the stator into concentricity to the eye. The brushes all seemed to have good tension against the armature so I did nothing further.

I placed the engine on the track and found the speed had increased significantly. Next I attached all three chrome passenger cars and the engine pulled the cars at the same speed with little effort. I did not pay attention to the before and after amp draw, I wished I had. I did note the lighted passenger cars all were brighter?? Could the front motor have been consuming more power? The problem appears to be solved, boy are these trains finicky. Oh, I also disconnected the speaker in the companion 364 car. 

Now on to the 3 Northern engines. 

Thanks for your help.

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

Getting back to my steam engines I have some questions. Also here's an update on each engine.

The 21165 is like new with little noticeable wear and tear. It runs good but not too exciting.

The 300 is a non smoking engine and is the same type engine I had when I was a kid. I bought it for nostalgia reasons and especially wanted the link couplers I had in 1954 instead of the more realistic later knuckle style. The 300 runs great as I recall my original did over 60 years ago.

The 282 wouldn't run, I discovered a wire to the stator had broken off, fortunately soldering and tinning techniques are not foreign to me. I noticed the clear red stack tube had broken from the smoke generator. I removed the lodged portion and reattached the tube. After letting the smoke oil soak in for 5 minutes it began generating smoke with the piston producing the choo choo sound. The light from the headlamp reflecting through the red stack tube gives a fire in the box look especially when the room lights are dimmed. This little engine is a good runner and a winner in my opinion.

The Northern 312 ran good after cleaning and lubing. The smoke in the tender is not operating and is something I plan to look into later. The 312 is a little power house and runs the track nicely pulling the three maroon, lighted Pullman cars. 

The Northern 322 is not operating. I discovered the "hair pin" style brush springs are messed up, I removed the Brush Bracket Assembly and had no luck getting the distorted springs to install correctly. Looking at my AF Factory Service Manual second edition page 207 the break down shows item # 44 Brush Bracket ***. Gilbert part # XA9565-A using a pencil spring with a stepped brush as opposed to the hair bin spring and slotted brush. Question, are these bracket assemblies interchangeable? I'd prefer the pencil spring over the hair pin style. Do they have the same diameter bushing for the armature? Will the same two mounting bolts work? I found these brackets are available on E bay (used) but is there a source for new replacement brushes and springs? 

The Northern 332 is not operating, the 4 wire harness from the tender is broken off from the male plug on the back of the engine. The harness is shot and cannot be salvaged. I located the tender wiring diagram in the service manual but I need the replacement wiring. Question, is there a source for a replacement harness? The harness is the original fabric covering braided stainless wiring necessary to handle the flexing between engine and tender. What wiring is recommended and where is the source?

Is there a source for rebuilding smoke boxes requiring the tungsten wire and wicking?

Again thanks for all the assistance I have received here.

Steve


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## AmFlyer

Steve, we need to give you a merit badge for successfully recentering your first diesel armature! They can be fussy and just a slight misalignment can cause a major drop in power.
The brush holders for for the stepped brushes are only interchangeable with the slotted brush holder if the stepped brush holder is from an early production engine, made prior to September of 1949. Later motors had an oil slinger added to the armature, lengthening it. The later brush holder can be made to work but a number of spacers will need to be added to the armature shaft. The older slotted brushes and springs work well and replacement parts are available.
PortLines offers all the items you need as do others. Flyernut has a great source close to him.


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> Steve, we need to give you a merit badge for successfully recentering your first diesel armature! They can be fussy and just a slight misalignment can cause a major drop in power.
> The brush holders for for the stepped brushes are only interchangeable with the slotted brush holder if the stepped brush holder is from an early production engine, made prior to September of 1949. Later motors had an oil slinger added to the armature, lengthening it. The later brush holder can be made to work but a number of spacers will need to be added to the armature shaft. The older slotted brushes and springs work well and replacement parts are available.
> PortLines offers all the items you need as do others. Flyernut has a great source close to him.


Tom,

So to buy on line a stepped brush holder it may be difficult identify if it is the pre 9/49 vintage. I do have the slotted spring style brush holder on the 312 and they are working well. Interesting my 332AC has the stepped brushes and I believe it's an early vintage as well. They must have jumped around a great deal in the early years. I'll contact Flyernut thanks.
Ps any thoughts on the 332 wiring?
Steve


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## AmFlyer

The only question I saw was about the harness. I know PortLines sells the correct, original appearing 4 wire harness with braided sheath. Did I miss something?


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> The only question I saw was about the harness. I know PortLines sells the correct, original appearing 4 wire harness with braided sheath. Did I miss something?


No you covered it, but I do want to ask about the remaining stranded insulated wire used throughout the engines and cars. Does PortLines sell this also? What gage is this wire and is the insulation used today fire resistant? Is there a common source outside of the RR modeling world?


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## AmFlyer

Some engines were wired at the factory using the same GEON rainbow wire used for the turnout controllers. Other engines were wired using standard stranded wire with mostly black insulation. Internal engine wiring should not be superflex since we want it to remain in a fixed position when the engine is reassembled. I do not recall the factory wire gauge but 18 would be fine. There are no special requirements on the insulation material.


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## flyernut

For the 4-wire conductor cloth-covered harness, I buy that item from the seller named...dmigo-trains... found on ebay..He has a store and also sells the 22 gauge super flex single wire in spools. I bought a 100' spool last year and still have alot left. He sells the 4-wire harness in 3' lengths, and I usually buy 12' or more at a time.


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## Old smokey 47

flyernut, Thank you for the info, Portlines is not taking orders for the present.

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

I set up a layout with two turnouts, see the photos. Cleaned all the rails and pins using a light die electric grease. The engine runs fine on the ovals but will often quit after passing thru the straight away on one turnout in either forward or reverse. The other turnout works fine. It only does this on the straight away and not on the inner turn out. I have tried both the standard setting as well as the two train setting?? Both turnouts change tracks smoothly and quickly, I did note the light bulb is out on the faulty turnout, I don't expect this would be an issue. The problem acts like the tender is losing pick up power and goes dead until it is moved away onto the open oval. There are no derailment issues or apparent irregularity in the interconnecting tracks, it just stops. Any suggestions I can look at?


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## AmFlyer

The layout will work well with both turnouts set to 2-train operation. That way one of the two routes will be unpowered when both turnouts are thrown to the other route.
Take the engine off the track. Throw both turnouts to the straight position, turn on the transformer to a medium setting. Measure the voltage at the point where the train stops, it should read zero. Turn off the transformer and measure the resistance across the rail gaps and track pins in both directions starting from the dead spot. You will find two locations where there is no conductivity. Were it only one place the train would not stop because power would be backfed the other way around the oval of track.
The straight leg connected to the plastic frog is likely unpowered, that is caused by oxidation on the sliding brass contacts inside the turnout. They will need to be cleaned. There is still another bad connection, maybe a track pin.


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> The layout will work well with both turnouts set to 2-train operation. That way one of the two routes will be unpowered when both turnouts are thrown to the other route.
> Take the engine off the track. Throw both turnouts to the straight position, turn on the transformer to a medium setting. Measure the voltage at the point where the train stops, it should read zero. Turn off the transformer and measure the resistance across the rail gaps and track pins in both directions starting from the dead spot. You will find two locations where there is no conductivity. Were it only one place the train would not stop because power would be backfed the other way around the oval of track.
> The straight leg connected to the plastic frog is likely unpowered, that is caused by oxidation on the sliding brass contacts inside the turnout. They will need to be cleaned. There is still another bad connection, maybe a track pin.


Cleaned as recommended both turnouts and they work great with no loss of power as the train passes over. 
Thanks,
Steve


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## AmFlyer

Ok, time to run the trains!


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## Old smokey 47

I have everything running except the 312 and 332 Northerns which I plan to order the parts for next week. Now the big question once I have achieved my goal of getting each engine in the display case to run is do I want to construct a layout and how elaborate will it be. 

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

Need some direction on what the general rule is for replacing the wire typically used inside the engine and tender shells and turnoffs for connecting lighting, smoke units, motors, coils etc.? I have come across on line both plastic and fabric covered, round and flat, flexible and super flex in 24 and 22 AWG. Is flexible braided wire recommended here or should I pursue solid copper and what gage? What is recommended?

The 4 wire harness between the engine and tender on the 332 Northern is available in black cloth wrapped, they are showing 24 gage. Both Portlines and dmigo-Trains have descriptions describing various flexibilities for this application. What am I looking for? Specific part numbers would be helpful.

Steve


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## AmFlyer

The harness between the engine and tender works best if the wires are superflex. The other wiring inside the tender and engine should be stranded, either cloth or plastic. There is no application for solid copper wire in the engines. I thought the harnesses were 22ga but if they are 24ga so be it.
Some diesels used the 4 color rainbow wire inside the engine. Some later steam engines used rainbow wire as the 4 conductors between the engine and tender. This original rainbow wire had GEON insulation which was very flexible when new.


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Need some direction on what the general rule is for replacing the wire typically used inside the engine and tender shells and turnoffs for connecting lighting, smoke units, motors, coils etc.? I have come across on line both plastic and fabric covered, round and flat, flexible and super flex in 24 and 22 AWG. Is flexible braided wire recommended here or should I pursue solid copper and what gage? What is recommended?
> 
> The 4 wire harness between the engine and tender on the 332 Northern is available in black cloth wrapped, they are showing 24 gage. Both Portlines and dmigo-Trains have descriptions describing various flexibilities for this application. What am I looking for? Specific part numbers would be helpful.
> 
> Steve


4-wire, super flex stranded wire, cloth covered, is what you want for the harness..22 gauge super flex stranded wire is what I've been using for the past 30 years or so inside the tender.. No solid wire is used, or should be used inside the tender or engine. Rainbow wire(4 colors), is used for turn-outs and SOME engines..Also 2 color,(gray and green wire), is used for engines that are direct-wired, such as a 283 or 303..


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## Old smokey 47

Got it thanks gents


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## Old smokey 47

AmFlyer said:


> _The brush holders for for the stepped brushes are only interchangeable with the slotted brush holder if the stepped brush holder is from an early production engine, made prior to September of 1949. Later motors had an oil slinger added to the armature, lengthening it. The later brush holder can be made to work but a number of spacers will need to be added to the armature shaft. The older slotted brushes and springs work well and replacement parts are available._


Tom,
Recalling this earlier post, I have located on line one or two replacement slotted brush holders for my early 322 Northern. I admittedly struggled attempting to install the existing slotted holder onto to the stator, the springs would not stay in place. I'm sure this was because the springs were distorted as I purchased the engine. As a result I'd prefer to install the compatible pre 9/49 stepped brush holder but how must I identify it's date of manufacture? If I went with the later vintage holder I assume you shim the earlier shorter armature using thrust washers similar as used on the front of the armature? Do you have the dimensional difference between the earlier and later stepped brush holders? Portlines is closed until after the Christmas Holiday. If I could find a video showing how the slotted springs are installed I many stay with the slotted configuration brush holder. 
Steve


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## AmFlyer

The armature with oil slinger is 1/16" longer. The entire 1/16" is from the commutator face to the end of the shaft that sits in the brush holder. If an oil slinger brush holder is used on an engine w/o one then 1/16" extra of washers need to be added on the shaft at the commutator face.


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## Old smokey 47

Tom, 

Thanks for the response, your explanation is clear. There are numerous PA 9565 coil spring brush holders out there. 
But I am unable to tell if it's an oil slinger or not style from the descriptions. Is there a way to identify this or do just take a shot w/o know what I am buying?

Steve


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## Old smokey 47

Tom, I don't have the commutator in front of me but it would seem I would need a very small OD diameter washer against the commutator that will not short between the poles on the face.

Steve


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## AmFlyer

Gilbert made shims that fit on the armature shaft for centering fields. Some steam engines had them and some did not. I bought a tiny bag of 50 of them at a train show like 30 years ago. I am sure they are available. Flyernut likely has a good source.


----------



## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> Gilbert made shims that fit on the armature shaft for centering fields. Some steam engines had them and some did not. I bought a tiny bag of 50 of them at a train show like 30 years ago. I am sure they are available. Flyernut likely has a good source.


Yes sir, I do.. Jeff Kane at The Train Tender..You can buy any amount of any thickness..You can also buy them in bulk from Jeff, but there's a minimum you must purchase..Here's the part #'s....PA 10766-10...010.......PA 10766-20....020....PA 10766-.005....005...I think the minimum is 20 for each part #. At that amount, they're .18 cents apiece.


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## Old smokey 47

Jeff, Thanks I have e mailed you. What I am really looking for is the early Northern PA-9566 slotted style brush holder assembly before I finally resort to converting to the coil spring style holder even though I'd prefer it over the slotted spring. I've looked around the various resources and except for Portline Hobbies I'm unable to locate the part. If I have no luck staying with the slotted I'll order the shims from you. 

So far I'm on to dmigolf-trains, SSS trains, Portline Hobbies and now The Train Tender resources for parts. Anyone that has a 322 for parts or knows who I can go to I'd appreciate being contacted. 

Steve


----------



## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> Jeff, Thanks I have e mailed you. What I am really looking for is the early Northern PA-9566 slotted style brush holder assembly before I finally resort to converting to the coil spring style holder even though I'd prefer it over the slotted spring. I've looked around the various resources and except for Portline Hobbies I'm unable to locate the part. If I have no luck staying with the slotted I'll order the shims from you.
> 
> So far I'm on to dmigolf-trains, SSS trains, Portline Hobbies and now The Train Tender resources for parts. Anyone that has a 322 for parts or knows who I can go to I'd appreciate being contacted.
> 
> Steve


I have 2 of these.I'll have to fix this one, but if you can use it, you can have it.. It has a loose armature bushing,(easily fixable), and the 2 brush holders are just a tad loose, also very fixable, I've repaired these in the past.Make me an offer I can't refuse..(I also have new brush springs for these but no brushes).


----------



## Old smokey 47

flyernut said:


> I have 2 of these.I'll have to fix this one, but if you can use it, you can have it.. It has a loose armature bushing,(easily fixable), and the 2 brush holders are just a tad loose, also very fixable, I've repaired these in the past.Make me an offer I can't refuse..(I also have new brush springs for these but no brushes).
> View attachment 573405
> View attachment 573406


flyernut, 

This is exactly what I'm looking for and I do need the two brush springs as well. I have the slotted brushes which appear to be fine. Don't be concerned about the loose armature bushing I can use the housing I have but I do need the two brass clips that slip into the slots in the housing which the springs attach to. The clips on mine have been distorted somehow. 

I live exactly 1.5 hours from you (Williamson), we can meet or you can place in the mail. I'll pay you what you think is reasonable and postage. If you wish to gift me I'll be indebted to you forever LOL. I don't see a PM option on this forum to communicate, let me know what you'd prefer and an e mail address if you'd prefer.

One other thing, when installing the springs, is it recommended to attach the brush holder to the stator and then install the springs? I struggled getting the springs to stay in place when trying to attach the holder assy. My springs were distorted, this could have been why they wouldn't stay in place. Does anyone know of a video showing how this is done?

Steve


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## AmFlyer

To send a private message click on Flyernut's profile. Up in the header area you will see "start conversation." Click that, type the message and then send.


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## flyernut

Old smokey 47 said:


> flyernut,
> 
> This is exactly what I'm looking for and I do need the two brush springs as well. I have the slotted brushes which appear to be fine. Don't be concerned about the loose armature bushing I can use the housing I have but I do need the two brass clips that slip into the slots in the housing which the springs attach to. The clips on mine have been distorted somehow.
> 
> I live exactly 1.5 hours from you (Williamson), we can meet or you can place in the mail. I'll pay you what you think is reasonable and postage. If you wish to gift me I'll be indebted to you forever LOL. I don't see a PM option on this forum to communicate, let me know what you'd prefer and an e mail address if you'd prefer.
> 
> One other thing, when installing the springs, is it recommended to attach the brush holder to the stator and then install the springs? I struggled getting the springs to stay in place when trying to attach the holder assy. My springs were distorted, this could have been why they wouldn't stay in place. Does anyone know of a video showing how this is done?
> 
> Steve


How much of a hurry are you in for the brush holder assembly?? We're fast approaching Christmas season, and busy is the key word,lol!! Shipping would be $5-$7 bucks, and it would be slow. We can meet Sunday morning if you're not in a hurry...My wife will go for the drive with me, she doesn't like me to go by myself with all my migraine problems and TIA's..I'll put in new springs, and a new oil wick too. I have the perfect spot to meet. Take 690 North, cross the Seneca River, and get off at the Baldwinsville exit..Turn right on Rt 370,(West), and go around 100 yards, there's a gas station on the right there. I'll meet you there at 11:00 am...Good enough?? Is $10 bucks too much???..I'll give you my cell phone # if the plan suits you,I'll PM it.


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## Old smokey 47

flyernut,

I sent you a PM

steve


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