# Kato - derailing and uncoupling



## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

I have a Kato N scale EMD SD70M Union Pacific "Flag" #4848 locomotive; and 106-4624 Bethgon Coalporter 8-Car Set UP/CMO "Building America". I have a tremendous amount of trouble with them either uncoupling or simply derailing even on straight sections. I tried adding a small weight to each car but they still seem to derail rather easily. I am using Atlas track and all the joints are even, it is level and is sitting on a Woodlands Scenic Track-Bed. Everything is tacked down so it cannot move and the bed is glued into place. Obviously I am doing something wrong as I am sure no one would put up with this constant hassle. Does anyone have any advice to offer? Thanks and have a nice day.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*What couplers?*



Trainmodel said:


> I have a Kato N scale EMD SD70M Union Pacific "Flag" #4848 locomotive; and 106-4624 Bethgon Coalporter 8-Car Set UP/CMO "Building America". I have a tremendous amount of trouble with them either uncoupling or simply derailing even on straight sections. I tried adding a small weight to each car but they still seem to derail rather easily. I am using Atlas track and all the joints are even, it is level and is sitting on a Woodlands Scenic Track-Bed. Everything is tacked down so it cannot move and the bed is glued into place. Obviously I am doing something wrong as I am sure no one would put up with this constant hassle. Does anyone have any advice to offer? Thanks and have a nice day.


Trainmodel;

Regarding uncoupling, Kato couplers work well with Kato couplers, but sometimes not so well with other brands of couplers. Are the original, Kato, couplers still on your locomotive? I'm not familiar with the Bethgon Coalporter N-scale cars. What brand are these models, and what brand are the couplers attached to the cars? 
While most experienced N-scale model railroaders prefer
Micro-Trains couplers, I wouldn't worry about replacing any couplers on your train just yet. However it is a good idea to buy a Micro-Trains coupler gage, if you don't already have one. www.microtrains.com 
Other causes of un-wanted uncoupling are;

1) Couplers set at different heights. To function correctly it is very important that all the couplers on your railroad be mounted at as exactly the same height as possible.

2) Track problems. The way to decide if you have track issues is to pin down the spot(s), along the track, where things come uncoupled. If several different cars tend to uncouple at the same location, then the problem may be in the track, at that spot. (Conversely, if a particular car seems to derail at several different locations, then the problem may be in that car, rather than the track.) Roll a string of 3 cars past the suspect spot as slowly as you possibly can. While doing this, get your eye down at rail top level. You may find that one, or more, cars are rising up as they pass that point and making one coupler move up out of the mating coupler. This may be due to a rail joiner that is not slid onto both the rails it's supposed to connecting properly. Another possible track issue is out-of-gage track. If you have an NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) track gage, use it to measure the distance between the rails,(a.k.a. the "gage" of the track) Check every single inch of track. The rails should not be too tight, or too loose. The gage can measure this, and many other very important things on the railroad. This includes the spacing between wheels on every axle of every car, and locomotive. Again the NMRA gage will check if the wheels are too tight together, or too far apart from each other. Either of these things can cause derailments.

If you don't have an NMRA gage, get one. You can order a gage from www.walthers.com or from a train store, if you have one.

Good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

These photos show an NMRA gage for N-scale. I cut an extra notch in mine to check coupler height. The NMRA gage does not come with this coupler measuring notch. That's why I suggested getting a Micro-Trains coupler gage as well.


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

WOW! Thanks for all the info. All the cars and locomotive are Kato with their standard coupler. I was running an old Bachman set on the same track without any problem. I just compared the flanges and the Backman ones are significantly longer than the Kato. I don't know if that has something to do with the issue or not. I will have to get a NMRA gage.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I second Traction fan's advice. The natural asssumption is that new items straight from the factory will be perfectly in gauge, etc, but unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

One of the first purchases you make in this hobby should be that standards gauge. It is your best friend when things like this start happening.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Wheel flange depth*



Trainmodel said:


> WOW! Thanks for all the info. All the cars and locomotive are Kato with their standard coupler. I was running an old Bachman set on the same track without any problem. I just compared the flanges and the Backman ones are significantly longer than the Kato. I don't know if that has something to do with the issue or not. I will have to get a NMRA gage.


 Trainmodel;

The difference you see between the Bachman, and Kato, wheels may be related to the age of the two train sets; or simply a difference between the standards of the two manufacturers. 
Older N-scale equipment was made with deeper wheel flanges than most current models. The deep flanges, nicknamed "pizza cutters", were thought necessary to keep the small N-scale trains on the track. Rail was also higher, to accommodate those oversize flanges. Atlas sells track in both "code 80" and
"code 55. If you're not familiar with track codes, the numbers simply indicate the height of the rail, in thousandths of an inch. Thus code 80 rail is 80/1000ths" high. Scaled up to real life size, a code 80 rail would be about a foot high. This is much higher than any rail ever used on a "prototype" (real, full-size) railroad.
When N-scale had been around for some years, modelers wanted more realistic looking rail, and wheels. Manufacturers started offering track with code 55 rail, and even code 40. The smaller rail needed smaller wheel flanges. Most current products come with the smaller flanges. If the track is laid properly, and track, wheels, and turnouts, all meet the standards of that NMRA gage you're getting, then the smaller flanges and rail will work fine, without derailments. The gage does measure wheel flange depth, along with many other important things.
I use Micro Engineering brand, code 55, track; and shallow wheel flanges. They both work quite well. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

The photos below show the different wheel flanges. The older tank car still has the old "pizza cutter" wheels. The gondola car has had its wheels updated with shallow flange, metal, wheels I bought from Fox Valley Models.


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

Thank you everyone.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Trainmodel said:


> Thank you everyone.


Did you solve the problem? If so, what was it?


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

The problem is not solved yet. I am still trying to figure things out. My guess is that is something related to the couplers, but I am not sure. I checked my locomotive on the Kato web site and they say it is okay with 9 3/4 inch radius but I am not sure that is correct. I tried the set on another track with a much large turn radius. After about four circuits one of the cars uncoupled again. I was thanking everyone for their input. And thanks again. I sincerely appreciate all the suggestions. 

In the interim, I dropped the locomotive on the concrete floor in the basement. :smilie_daumenneg: Crash and burn so I have to wait until a replacement gets here. 

Things could be worse.


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

Opps.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Unwanted uncoupling is usually caused by vertical
misalignment of the knuckles. This can be 
caused by irregularities in the track, the 'hose'
catching on something, or loss of the knuckle spring.

There is one other cause that I've run into. The knuckle
shank has too much vertical play in the draft box. When that
car has a train of cars behind it there is an increase in
draw bar pull and the knuckle
will work UP, becoming misaligned with it's
mate, thus a slight jar can result in uncoupling.

I have used Kadee washers in the draft box
to lessen the vertical play. It's tricky, you want
the knuckle to freely swing, so it may take some
trial error to get it right.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Trainmodel said:


> The problem is not solved yet. I am still trying to figure things out. My guess is that is something related to the couplers, but I am not sure. I checked my locomotive on the Kato web site and they say it is okay with 9 3/4 inch radius but I am not sure that is correct. I tried the set on another track with a much large turn radius. After about four circuits one of the cars uncoupled again. I was thanking everyone for their input. And thanks again. I sincerely appreciate all the suggestions.
> 
> In the interim, I dropped the locomotive on the concrete floor in the basement. :smilie_daumenneg: Crash and burn so I have to wait until a replacement gets here.
> 
> Things could be worse.


Well, at least you cured the uncoupling problem. Expensive fix, though.


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## SolMan (Sep 18, 2017)

Can you start with locomotive and one car and run it through the problem areas and then add one car at a time until the problems occur? Then try removing the last car and adding a different car to see if it is the length of the train causing the problem. Does the default occur running in one direction only? Is the track ballasted? 
Can you post photo(s) of the problem areas of the layout?


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

Everything is finally working. I redid the actual track layout with flex track to increase the radius of turns, ballsted the track and still had to add an accumate truck and coupler to the first car to couple to the locomotive. It is running well right now. Kato says the engine will run on a 9 3/4 inch radius turn, but I sure could not do it. Again thanks for all the help. Have a happy new year everyone.


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

*Thanks everyone!!! And a happy new year!*

Here is my happy ending. Nowhere as detailed as many of your layouts, but I am pretty happy with it as I have Parkinson's and am just glad to have some "on" time to be able to work on my setup.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Parkinson's or not, you did a GR8 job! I love your Utah/western Colorado theme, including the arches. The terrain looks awesome, as does the train! Very nice job, especially in N scale. :appl::appl::appl:


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Very nice looking layout, simple but beautifully done.
Very good sound in an N scale loco.
Glad you got all the problems worked out.
Relax and enjoy your trains. 

Magic


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Looks great!*

It looks pretty darn good to me!:appl:

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Trainmodel (Jun 13, 2017)

Thank you everyone for all the help and patience.


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