# Input and ideas- Install working Track Signals?



## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

Hello all,

I have a few questions; hopefully some of you can provide some feedback.

Sorry for the long post, but looking for some good constructive ideas, my layout is a 4 X 8 layout with a future beginning extension that will extend into a 9.6 foot staging yard with a 4 tier ladder: 

I am at a point where I have thought about adding Rail signals as well as lighting for the small town that will occupy the layout. 

Question 1. I have some street lights that can be run off via AC Power. Would it be best to figure out the placement for the street lights now, before I have buildings and the street itself in place? Is it best to put down the streetlights before everything else in the town, since smaller wiring is needed to be threaded through the bottom of the layout?

Question 2. What is the best way to add Rail Signals? I am wanting to have a basic signal system that would either be a Red and Green Light (two separate lights on a pole) and the Signal would change when a Train moves through specific areas on the layout.

My layout is a full DC layout- I don't have the money to move to DCC. 

What are some simple and possible DIY setups that I could do to accomplish both of my questions and what have you done on your layout to accomplish what I am looking to do?


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## trains galore (Jul 22, 2013)

Hi
1. This depends, if you are installing lights on a platform you MUST put them in first before you glue it down, otherwise you won't be able to access the cavity But if you are just installing them on a street so the wires drop down below the baseboard, I'd say do them last, just drill a small hole, place the lamp with a little drop of glue, and then install the wiring once they are all in.

2. On my layout what I did for signals was get some old plastic dummy signals I got for free in a kit and I drilled it out and stuck a led inside. I control them with SPDT switches manually. However you probably better off getting some cheap 12v signals ready to go (you can find them on ebay.) If you want them to change as trains pass then you need to build a simple sensor to detect the train, and then start a timer so the signal stays red for say 30 seconds, and then goes back to green. This isn't hard if you can get your hands on a suitable sensor and timer.

You can also get these as a ready made solution, though I don't think they have a sensor, they just change automatically within a set time.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Q03-3-mo...ies_Model_Railways&hash=item1c26bbeadf&_uhb=1

Also if you plan to run alot of accessories it is worth getting a second power supply so it doesn't steal power from your trains, either another train power pack or a 12v plug pack. I use an old desktop computer power supply which provides alot of power and you can find them for free

Would like to see your layout


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## jesteck (Apr 15, 2014)

If you want "prototypical" signals, look at Oregon Rail Supply's LED targets and signal kits. They take a little work, but look great when done. You still need detection circuits for automatic operation (Circuitron, among others, make them), or you can wire them to operate off auxiliary contacts on your switch machines or control panel.


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

jesteck said:


> If you want "prototypical" signals, look at Oregon Rail Supply's LED targets and signal kits. They take a little work, but look great when done. You still need detection circuits for automatic operation (Circuitron, among others, make them), or you can wire them to operate off auxiliary contacts on your switch machines or control panel.


I took a look at their website. Describe what you mean by "They take a little work"...and which Circuitron unit did you hook these up to? I looked at the Circuitron AR-1? AS-1? I think that was the model number on the circuit board, which would be a good one to use in conjunction with the Oregon Rail Supply kits? Or can either one be used? 

I have two railmaster power packs on my layout that currently run the track. I *could* hook the lights up to the AC power on one of these packs if I wanted to, correct? Otherwise I have some spare Bachmann power packs that I can use specifically to run all of the lights and Block Signals...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The Circuitron AR 1 is actually an automatic reversing unit that could
be wired to change your signal from green to red or reverse but
would need a detector of some sort.

However, if you want your signal to change to red automatically
when the train is in it's 'block' you would want a true occupancy detector.

Here is one:

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Circuitron-800-5502-BD-2-Block-Occupancy-Detector-p/cir-800-5502.htm

This is wired to the track and senses the current draw of your
loco and lighted cars and then turns a signal to Red.

I have a main line that has 4 turnouts that must be set right
to give a clear route. I have wired a transistor circuit that
changes a target signal from green to red any time any one
of the turnouts voids the clear route. It does not, however,
detect a train's presence. 

You could also use a photo electric or ray sensor to change
your signal.

Don


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

These are a it pricy but no need to set up detection either, it is built in on the bottom. Just plug in + and - and ready to go. I have not used then but have been looking because I am not an electronics guy. They can be sunk into the foam board so just the detector and signal are above ground level. 

http://z-stuff.net/trackside.html

This is the install/info page on them

http://z-stuff.net/instructions/DZ1050HO instructions 11-29-13.pdf


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## jesteck (Apr 15, 2014)

Truth is, I didn't hook them up to ANY detection unit. I wired them to change according to turnout positions and rail polarity. I wasn't interested in automatic operation of the trains; that was the engineer's job. As far as "a little work" is concerned, for the most part it consisted in soldering the LED leads and power leads, cutting 3/32 brass tubling to length for the masts, cutting brass ladder stock, and painting. That was back in the 80's and I used PRR-style targets so I breadboarded the "logic" circuits. The layout is long gone, but I still have the old double-track signal bridge and the boards and Radio Shack relays that drove it. It all made sense back then, and it worked admirably for several years before getting torn down. Looking at it today, I have no idea how-and I wired it- but it did look pretty darned good back in the day.


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

Any other ideas on this? I have also seen the Atlas G-Type Signals that are pre-fab and can wire into an existing layout, from the looks of the setup... These look like they came out back in 2006? Has anyone used these at all?


http://www.atlasrr.com/trackmisc/hosignals.htm


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## PeterA (Dec 9, 2012)

You might look at these also for detection http://www.iascaled.com/store/CKT-IRSENSE


Sent from Pete's Pad using Tapatalk


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Track side signals installation possible options?*

That is something I must get done. that is one cool aspect of model railroading. With a brief 
schooling in digital electronics. I found,You first have to decide which type of current to use. dc for (direct current).A/C for ( alternating current). A/C current has a tendency to travel further distances with less adverse effects. E.g. voltage drop and such, as heating up of wires, and insulation is not good. So now you have a couple of choices to make. Sorry for this long drawn out affair, as I need this to help me think. :eyes: So I would use A/C voltage with terminal strips very close to your intended target. With diodes in the vicinity. You can construct a full wave bridge rectifier. This changes A/C to d/c. 
I think radio shack has an integrated circuit(IC) chip all ready made up for this specific purpose. you may also need resisters made up, for voltage dividers. This should drop down the voltage to appropriate levels for dimness. So, now you have direct current riving those Light emitting diodes (LED's) with the appropriate voltage. You can use a breadboard for that
by judging on the dimness ~ 1.2dcv?
You may use A/C voltage to drive incandescent lights and voltage dividers to drop[ down the voltage to appropriate levels ?~10VA/C may work. I really don't know for I haven't attempted this yet.But I plan too, this will be my plan. (Up above) Check out the GG&N [email protected] train forums. Regards,tr1 :hah: (To be continued.)


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

*Update Oct. 2014*

Here is an update... been reading alot... 

And some more specifics on what I am running currently if you haven't read everything so far....

I have an HO scale layout that I really would like to add Track Signaling. My layout is a DC powered layout that is already set up in Blocks. I have two Railpower 1300 Cab Units that are controlling my layout, hooked up with Two Atlas Selectors.

I have read about the Circuitron Block Occupancy Detectors and I have also read about the Quad Occupancy Detectors that are made by Circuits4Tracks. The Circuitron Block Detectors run in the neighborhood of $35.00-$45.00 a piece. Obviously I would need a few of them to properly set the signaling the right way... -OR- I *could* buy just TWO of the Quad Occupany Detectors from Circuits4Tracks at $34.99...

8 Circuitron Boards is $240.00 at $30.00 each and buy 8 of them 
2 Quad Boards hat would run all 8 Blocks, from Circuits4Tracks would be $70.00

Essentially from reading on their website, it sounds like the Quad Occupancy Detector would be able to Detect 4 Blocks on one circuit board, correct? In essence I would only need TWO Quad Occupancy Detectors because I have 8 blocks on my layout. Is this right? 

Has anyone had experience with either of these items that could comment? Cost is playing a factor here as well and the Circuits4Tracks circuit boards look like they would definitely be a good buy....

I already have Track Signals that can be wired into this setup. I just need the boards to wire them to and then splicing the Signal setup and boards into my wiring scheme already on my layout... 

Thoughts?


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*relays help keep cost $ low.*

I've been looking into a place called "cti"They sell electronic hard ware for occupancy
detection and theses are used to interface with a computer I/O, to help obtain a simple auto-
mation control. Atlas relays can be setup to drive your signal target lights(incandescent bulbs though).I'm sorry, this is all I know, so far, at this time.Regards,tr1 
P/S,Its probably best to use some type of relay for light bulb target illumination.Good luck and continue researching #37


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

hoscale37 said:


> Here is an update... been reading alot...
> 
> And some more specifics on what I am running currently if you haven't read everything so far....
> 
> ...


You only have one output signal per block. If you want to drive RYG signals, you will have to do some fancy wiring (in effect analog computing). 2 color signals are easier. Signal operations can be simple (turnout position) to computer controlled for condition triggered signaling.


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

JerryH said:


> You only have one output signal per block. If you want to drive RYG signals, you will have to do some fancy wiring (in effect analog computing). 2 color signals are easier. Signal operations can be simple (turnout position) to computer controlled for condition triggered signaling.


The signals I have are all 2 color signals (Red and Green). I don't have a DCC layout- my layout is an all DC layout.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

Bryan
Do a Google search for "railroad signals" There's alot to learn about the different color "aspects" & their placement. Also what kinds of signals you use depends on which RR you are modeling as most of the RRs had different types. As for placement most signals are put before & after switches to let the engineers know if they can proceed &/or which way they are going straight or taking a diverging route. There are also signals on either side of the RRs blocks. But your 4 x 8 layout is probably too small to worry about those.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*operating track side signal targets appropiatly Rd.& grn.*

I'd like to try to add a little something here.If I may? What,JerreyH. Mentioned earlier
about letting the turn out positions dictate the color of the track-side signals. If you have
Atlas switch machine's to control your turn outs? I believe the next best thing too use is
an Atlas snap relay wired in parallel with your turn out control (switch motor).And that system will light the appropriate target signals, if of course they are wired in correctly.
Good luck. Regards,tr1


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

If you just want occupancy indicated as red or green then a relay controlled by the occupancy output will do the trick. The relay would have the power for the appropriate signal light routed through it.


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## Circuits4Tracks (Mar 26, 2012)

hoscale37 said:


> I have an HO scale layout that I really would like to add Track Signaling. My layout is a DC powered layout that is already set up in Blocks. I have two Railpower 1300 Cab Units that are controlling my layout, hooked up with Two Atlas Selectors.
> 
> I have read about the Circuitron Block Occupancy Detectors and I have also read about the Quad Occupancy Detectors that are made by Circuits4Tracks. The Circuitron Block Detectors run in the neighborhood of $35.00-$45.00 a piece. Obviously I would need a few of them to properly set the signaling the right way... -OR- I *could* buy just TWO of the Quad Occupany Detectors from Circuits4Tracks at $34.99...
> 
> ...


Our QODs do have four detectors on a board, but they share a common track power feed. This is ideal for the wiring method for DCC layouts, but may be an issue for DC wiring methods.

With cab power selection on DC layouts, the cab is selected at a control panel for each block and is wired from there to the block. Now, if you want to detect parts of a block separately, as would be needed to operate a level crossing signal, then the one feeder supplies power to the QOD and each of its four track feeder connectors would supply each part of the block.

This wiring method, where the cab power selection is done in one place and each block is powered by a separate feeder, requires a single detector in line with the feeder.

That said, detectors with a single detector installed can be special orderd from us, but the cost per detector is higher than when four are on a single board. Even so, our cost would still be less expensive than the Circuitron example above. A full QOD unit now sells for $34.19, so one assembled with a single detector would be less than that price (I don't have access to special order pricing at the time of posting this, but you can email [email protected] to get that). Quantity discounts start with 3 of the same item, so the need for a greater number of single detector boards can decrease this cost furether, not to mention that the price is in Canadian dollars, which is now at about 80 cents to the US dollar. 

The output side of each detector is an open-collector transistor, meaning it pulls the output low when something is detected. This is best used to feed some digital circuit (hardware or input to something that process the information in software) or to drive a relay. Driving a visual indicator directly will not give a clean ON and OFF state, but will be more of a BRIGHT and DIM state, so some form of cleaning the signal is needed. Since many users feed it into a computer system, the debouncing and cleaning of the signal is done in software, but there are hardware methods. See http://circuits4tracks.daxack.ca/products/occupancy/PDF/DebouncingOutput.pdf for more information.

As for operating signals, something is needed between the block detector and the signal appliance to implement the logic. Now, as has been mentioned by others, operating signals with two colours involves very little logic, just the cleaning of the outputs of the detector and something to invert the signal for one of the colours (so green lights when unoccupied and red lights when occupied). Three colours needs some logic that must take into account the state of the next signal down the line to determine if the signal should be green or yellow when the block is unoccupied. We have an overview article on the signalling process at http://circuits4tracks.daxack.ca/tips/Signalling.php

I hope this helps! 

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
Circuits4Tracks


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Calvin

There will be members who find your products interesting.

Please post your information in the For Sale by others forum so it will be
around and available when someone wants these
controls. Be sure to include how to order and
information on shipping. There is no charge.

Don


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## Circuits4Tracks (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion, Don.

I have posted in Market Place > Product Promotion, but I will add a posting under your suggestion.


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