# What is this locomotive???



## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

So when I was about 10, Santa brought me a bunch of used train stuff for Christmas.

This is one of the locomotives he brought. Its been sitting in a box for over 30 years. Any idea what it is?

It is missing the cow catcher at the front and definitely needs some clean up. It has sentimental value, not sure if it has any monetary value. Might need to 3D print a cow catcher if I cannot determine what it is or get parts for it.

It has some oxidation on some of the undercarriage. I think they call that weathering 

I didn't notice any markings or stampings on it.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Looks like Mantua, International Hobby Corp. (IHC), or maybe Model Power. My money is on IHC. It's a Southern Pacific class 4-6-2, but resembles the real locomotive rather poorly.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sp/sp-s2447.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou-s1380vaa.jpg


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

That's the Southern, not Southern Pacific paint scheme. A Google search turned this up & it has pix of Southern's passenger trains:
http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/crescent.htm


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

mesenteria said:


> Looks like Mantua, International Hobby Corp. (IHC), or maybe Model Power. My money is on IHC. It's a Southern Pacific class 4-6-2, but resembles the real locomotive rather poorly.
> 
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sp/sp-s2447.jpg
> 
> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou-s1380vaa.jpg


I think you are right that it is a Mantua. I googled it and one was sold on Ebay with a bunch of photos.

Thanks


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

By the way, Santa is real.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

D&J Railroad said:


> By the way, Santa is real.



Sure is!


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

Yes, it's an old Mantua model. I note that the trailing truck is upside down and the cab roof overhang has been cut off. It should not be hard to find a pilot - there's plenty of these models around, many of them "junkers" that are only good for parts. That would go for the cab as well, though you would need to hunt a little harder to find an exact match for the Southern scheme.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

ebtnut said:


> Yes, it's an old Mantua model. I note that the trailing truck is upside down and the cab roof overhang has been cut off. It should not be hard to find a pilot - there's plenty of these models around, many of them "junkers" that are only good for parts. That would go for the cab as well, though you would need to hunt a little harder to find an exact match for the Southern scheme.


Good eye on the trailing truck. The front was upside down as well. Not sure how I operated it when I was a kid. Must have had derailments.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

lajrmdlr said:


> That's the Southern, not Southern Pacific paint scheme. A Google search turned this up & it has pix of Southern's passenger trains:
> http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/crescent.htm


Yup, it's a Southern Pacific....as in 4-6-2 Pacific. My mind then went searching for that combo, and unfortunately, I ended up on SP's site. My bad.


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

FWIW, the Mantua Pacific is modeled after the B&O's "President" series P-7d locos. If you take the cab from an old Rivarossi B&O 2-10-2 and find a welded tender that better matches the prototype you can have a credible B&O model.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

I thinking will follow this action plan sometime in the future:

- set up a small piece of dc test track
- see how well it runs if it does
- clean it up
- buy a pilot and cab if I can. STOP and DECIDE HERE. 
- decide on dcc, if so replace the motor with a can motor, isolate it and do some additional wheel power pickups in the tender. 

Question is if I throw a double pole, double throw switch on my bus power feed, and put dc power to my layout on one of the poles - would it damage my digitrax AR1 auto reversing switch or would I need to isolate it as well? I.e. is the AR1 compatible with DC?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I just reread the Digitrax specs and instructions 
for the AR1. They specifically state it is for use on
DCC systems. It runs on the modified A/C track
power so damage could occur if track power were DC.

Even just disconnecting it's power source would
not protect it. When a loco spans the isolated
reverse loop section it would feed DC power into
the AR1 electronics.

However the Azatrax reverse loop controller is
available for DC or DCC. You might investigate
these.

http://www.azatrax.com/model-railroad-reverse-loop.html

Don


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

DonR said:


> I just reread the Digitrax specs and instructions
> for the AR1. They specifically state it is for use on
> DCC systems. It runs on the modified A/C track
> power so damage could occur if track power were DC.
> ...


Thanks Don, that is what I suspected. 

I lubed up the locomotive and it ran on a 3 foot piece of flex track back and forth. 

I couldn’t resist, I disconnected the AR1, pulled all of the dcc locomotives off the layout, connected up a dc controller. The green monster was running fast around the loop a couple times and then came to a complete stop. 

It dropped a linkage off the one side. It was in its glory running for the first time in 40 years, then it said it was enough. 

I am glad I got it running for a brief time, but I don’t think I will doing anything with it. Makes me sad but I think it needs too much.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Pilots show up on ebay, that's where I found mine. The linkage could be straightened and re-riveted if you had a mind to. I refurbished mine then bent the shaft on the new motor when I tried to remotor it. Still waiting to purchase a replacement.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

Murv2 said:


> Pilots show up on ebay, that's where I found mine. The linkage could be straightened and re-riveted if you had a mind to. I refurbished mine then bent the shaft on the new motor when I tried to remotor it. Still waiting to purchase a replacement.


How do you rerivet them. Do you need to buy parts or reuse the existing? Though I may buy a replacement valve assembly. Noticed one on eBay for $10.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

ebtnut said:


> FWIW, the Mantua Pacific is modeled after the B&O's "President" series P-7d locos. If you take the cab from an old Rivarossi B&O 2-10-2 and find a welded tender that better matches the prototype you can have a credible B&O model.


You are correct, the Mantua engine is modeled after the B&O P-7d locomotive and you can use a USRA cab from a Riverossi boiler to correct the cab on the model. Also the tender from a Riverossi Berkshire is the correct length but it has rivets molded into the shell and the top edge is slightly off. In the early Mantua ads they used a photo of the B&O engine to promote the model. Mantua used existing molds for the cab and tender which explains the discrepancy.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Rabman said:


> How do you rerivet them. Do you need to buy parts or reuse the existing? Though I may buy a replacement valve assstembly. Noticed one on eBay for $10.


Straighten the rod by lying the engine on its side so the rod is flat against something solid and tapping it flat with a small mallet of some type. Test fit the rod in the rivet, if it doesn’t go in gently squeeze the rivet with pliers, rotating to keep it round, then once it slides on splay the rivet back out with a punch. It takes patience but it can be done. You might find rivets for sale if your googlefu is strong. If any rivets are too tight the engine will jink (don’t ask how I know).


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## ebtnut (Mar 9, 2017)

There was a time when I would have suggested using a 1mm valve gear screw for this fix. Tap out the hole with a 1mm tap and then screw the rod in place. Problem is, I haven't been able to locate any of those screws for a long time. PFM used to supply them, but that source seems to be long gone.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

So call me a crazy Canadian, but I bought this kit off Ebay. It is a Tyco 4-8-2. 

I bought it for donor parts. I was looking at the other listings for the cab, pilot and valve kits and they would have cost more. Haven’t verified if all the valve linkages are there or not, but it has all new parts. Pilot, 2 cabs, new wheels and motor. 

If I can get the linkage straightened away, no pun intended, it should basically be new. 

3 questions:

Does anyone have the assembly manual for on of these. Particularly interested in the valve assembly. But the whole manual would be great. 

2nd does anyone know the paint code for the green and red on the engine ?

Do you need and particular special tools?


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## doneuald (Jan 2, 2016)

Try this site
https://hoseeker.net
you might find an exploded parts diagram


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

doneuald said:


> Try this site
> https://hoseeker.net
> you might find an exploded parts diagram


Thanks. That site had it.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Rabman said:


> So call me a crazy Canadian, but I bought this kit off Ebay. It is a Tyco 4-8-2.
> 
> I bought it for donor parts. I was looking at the other listings for the cab, pilot and valve kits and they would have cost more. Haven’t verified if all the valve linkages are there or not, but it has all new parts. Pilot, 2 cabs, new wheels and motor.
> 
> ...


The engine is a Mantua/Tyco 2-8-2 and the instructions should be easy to come buy.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

thedoc said:


> Rabman said:
> 
> 
> > So call me a crazy Canadian, but I bought this kit off Ebay. It is a Tyco 4-8-2.
> ...


Thanks I found it.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

So I installed a Digitrax DH-123D Decoder in my green 4-6-2 locomotive. 

Isolating the motor was fairly easy. I pulled out the spring pivot point, cut the brass conductor bracket, and the reinstalled the pivot point for the brush. 

I picked up the track power where the red wire is from the brass bracket I cut. The black wire track power is coming from the tenders bottom frame. 

Grey and orange wires to the commutator brush spring pivot pins. I do need to reverse the two wires to get the direction right. I am aware it can also be done by setting a CV value. 

I did connect the headlight to the blue and white wires of the Decoder. 

I cleaned the tenders wheels as the brass was quite dirty. I have some more cleaning to do as they are not sparkling. Also I did not clean out the area between the axle and truck. I cleaned the locomotive wheels also a bit, though they didn’t look too bad. More wheel cleaning to do. One pain is the tenders wheels cannot be removed as the bottom casting on the bolsters are peened on, not bolted. 

So I suspect I have a power quality issue for a number of reasons. 

1) at best the locomotive will crawl erratically. 

2) making a humming noise when track power is turned on with zero throttle. 

3) need to replace the headlight, it isn’t working. Perhaps I blew the bulb when I soldered a wire to the threaded portion. I do have an LED I can replace it with. 

So my action plan is:

1) Get a jumper wire with alligator clips and connect to the rail the tender picks power from to the black wire of the Decoder. See if it’s a tender wheel connection issue. 

2) repeat the process with the red wire to connect it to the other rail to see if that’s the issue. 

3) pull the motor off the frame to see if it behaves properly. 

4) all else fails, modify the motor I received with my mikado 2-8-2 to see if it behaves better. I also have new trucks and wheels for the tender to see if that makes the situation better. 

5) disconnect the headlight bulb to reduce power draw. 

So I am aware these are forty year old plus motors, maybe the power draw is just too much for the Decoder. I tried measuring the current draw of the motor but my meter only goes to 300mA and it is much more than that I’m sure. 

A few points: the locomotive with the motor removed seems to be fairly smooth rolling. The tender does make some rough rolling sounds. 

When the loco was hooked up to dc, it didn’t start moving until I put about 60% power to it. This predated my wheel cleaning though. The motor turns freely and smoothly when removed from the locomotive. Spins quite fast. I cleaned up the commutator brushes and plus the axles and pivots of the linkages. 

A few questions:

Do you think these are good steps to debug?

Am I missing anything?

Is this ever going to work?

Any idea what the issues could be? As mentioned I suspect it is power or an old motor. Blown headlight bulb.


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

So I did my checks but started with supplying power to the red and black wires directly from the track with the wheels elevated. The locomotive ran well. 

So I corrected the power feed from the tender and the locomotive ran properly. 

But boy is it noisy. I believe it is the tender trucks making all the noise. I have some major work to do on it. My next project. 

At least the locomotive is running off dcc and I didn’t need to replace the motor. Once the tender is addressed, I think it will run nicely.


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