# Question Regarding Bachmann/Williams Locomotives



## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

As some of you already know, I will be getting back into the world of O-scale Model Railroading later this year (around November) when I start work on a 9x9 layout that will be placed in my old bedroom (11 x 12 room) after I move into a new, larger room. Since my budget (roughly $1250 to $1500) is modest, I will most likely be adding two to three locomotives to my current collection (4-6-4 and ALCO PA-1).

Price-wise, I have been looking into several Bachmann O-Scale 3-Rail locomotives to add to my modest collection, ones that will fit in with my 1930's to 1970's-themed layout. Having never owned brands outside of K-Line and LIONEL, I was wondering if there is anyone on the forum can help me out with these questions:

1. How good do Bachmann locomotives perform? As long as they can pull a 10 to 13-car consist without issues I will be happy with them. 
2. Are they reliable? I do not wish to invest in something if they are not reliable over the long haul. 
3. Size-wise, are they closer to semi-scale or normal scale O-Gauge? Most of what I own is scale-sized, so if they are mostly scale-sized, then I will be happy. 

Here are the five locomotives from Bachmann that I am currently looking into (and three of them I will most likely invest in by Summer 2014 at the latest). They can be seen below:










































Thanks in advance! 
*California Railfan508*


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

I too am just starting to build an O gage layout (7 x9 ). I already have a small HO gage trolley layout near completion. i have yet to buy any rolling stock for the O gage layout but have a bunch of trolleys for the HO layout. Several are Bachmann and their better line of Spectrum. I also built a little 4 x 6 layout in N gage for the grandson. in the process we have bought many Bachmann products and have some that are good and some not so good. It took three tries to get the grandson one good Bachman engine in N gage. I bought one of their trolleys that was so out of scale vertically that I had to buy a Bowser chassis kit just to get it to look right. The last little 45 ton Bachman switcher I bought did not run right out of the box. There were bad solder joints and the wiring was such that the headlight illuminated on the opposite end of the engine when moving. The engine was never tested at the factory! The grandson has one Bachmann switch that requires a shim under it for it to work. The tiny wiring to the N gage switches has already broken and I m going to have to figure out a way to redesign it to be more durable. The way their switch boxes link together is very poor and the internals of the switch box are not just a switch but includes electronics which precludes just replacing them with toggle switches.

I'll not buy anymore Bachmann products.

The latest greatest in O gage is MTH (toy train not model), in my opinion. Most come with DCS (digital control), and can have amazingly good detail, especially in the expensive Premier line. MTH stuff is expensive but seems well made and looks good. I will be using the MTH snap together track (RealTrax) with plastic roadbed and my track budget is about the same as your entire budget. At my age and where I am financially in these later years, I am not worried about the money.

In your situation you might want to buy used stuff that is not collector material to minimize your cost and maximize your result. But none of the old Lionel trains are near the match of modern MTH trains either in the Rail King or Premier line. You may find some of the MTH stuff used as it has been with us for more than a decade. Williams also makes O gage trains and has been around for longer than MTH. But I have no experience with either MTH or Williams.

Others farther into O gage than me might have more relevant experience but I stand on my choice to not buy Bachmann again.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't have any experience with Bachmann's HO or N scale stuff, but actually I've found the Bachmann/Williams O-scale stuff to be very robust. If you're going conventional, they are a good choice. They have scale and semi-scale stuff, so you have to read the descriptions for any locomotive you're interested in. I'm guessing, just from appearance, that A-A Union Pacific set is not scale, but rather semi-scale. I think that PRR Turbine is also a semi-scale version. 

Since I'm pretty much 100% command here, I only have a few Williams locomotives, and most have been converted to command, or will be converted.

You won't have any problem with Williams diesels pulling lots of cars, all of them I've ever seen are dual-motored units with plenty of pulling power. The only Williams steamers I currently own are a couple of the older Korean made brass models, but the Williams steamers I've seen and worked on have all been nice models.

Williams will typically have less detailing than something like the previously mentioned MTH Premier locomotives or the Lionel Legacy locomotives. However, they'll also cost a ton less, so you really do get what you pay for.

If you are considering at some point moving to command, the previously recommended MTH models are a good choice, many are already command equipped, but will also run conventionally. Obviously, you'll be able to buy fewer of them on your budget. The Lionel Legacy stuff is excellent as well, but typically a little higher priced than the MTH stuff.

If sound is important to you, the top quality sound is Lionel Legacy, IMO they're second to none. MTH PS2/3 comes in second, and that's followed by the older Lionel RailSounds 4 stuff.

If smoke is important, MTH wins that battle hands down. They have produced the best smoke units by far, most of their models with smoke will run you out of the room on the high settings! 

Another purchasing point, don't overlook the used market. I've bought some of my stuff used in excellent condition for 35-40 cents on the dollar over new prices. I've bought a number of the scale K-Line locomotives for a fraction of the new prices, and their new prices were pretty attractive.



Top piece of advice? Take your time and truly evaluate your choices before you leap. Feel free to post and discuss the pros and cons of what you're considering. Remember, once you spend the money, you own it.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm guessing, just from appearance, that A-A Union Pacific set is not scale, but rather semi-scale. I think that PRR Turbine is also a semi-scale version.


The Williams F7's I believe are based off of 1950's Kusan tooling, so a few things aren't quite right (the shape of the nose, the windshields are too tall, etc...), but I believe they are close to scale in size.

The Turbine is built just like the postwar Lionel ones as well, meaning definitely not scale, but good looking nonetheless.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm not a huge fan of Williams/Bachman. Williams stuff runs and fits the bill if you have champagne taste with a beer budget. 

Here are some of my personal peeves with Williams,


Detail is weak and I find the lack of detail distracting. 
The plastics are very fragile and I have had problems with breaking under normal wear & tear.
Their sleuth style smoke units are lame
No sound or Command Control.
IMHO, If you have the choice between an original Lionel postwar and the Williams reissue I would go with the original. You can also find 1990s vintage Lionel GPs with CC and Railsounds for less or the same as Williams.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hmm... I've never noticed the Williams plastic being fragile, and I've manhandled several of them doing upgrades. The shell seems as robust as any comparable Lionel or MTH shell.

A lot of the earlier PW stuff has no better detailing than current Williams products, though I agree that you get what you pay for, and you're not buying Lionel Legacy or MTH Premier products when you buy Williams.

I agree that the Sleuth smoke units are the worst, any Williams I have with those gets a smoke transplant. OTOH, the PW Lionel stuff with smoke units are not a whole lot better, you have to get to fan driven smoke for real smoke unit performance.

The PW stuff you mention doesn't have command, and any new Williams stuff comes with sound, or at least most of it, at least a whistle/horn and bell. Places like Train World and Pat's Trains have frequent sales where you can pick some brand new Williams stuff for $99 and up, it's a good buy at those prices.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether Williams stuff is a good deal.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

I have some Bachmann Ho and N stuff; All IMO; The new stuff is ok for what you pay, runs fine etc. The old stuff is junk. Don


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

AHH...........My experience with Bachmann is all in the last year and was all new stuff.

LDBennett


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## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

*@everybody who posted above:* Thank you all for your input, insight, and opinions regarding my question. You guys (and the community) are downright awesome :smilie_daumenpos:

Well, based on what I have heard, seen, or looked into, I will most likely pass on Bachmann/Williams and look into some MTH locomotives (so long as the prices don't get too high considering my budget). I like that the performance is good, but the lack of details is now starting to rub on me (especially with those odd railings on the Santa Fe GP9) I really do want a GP9, GP30, and F-3/F-7 locomotive, so I'll look at MTH and Lionel for them.

Thanks again, everyone! :smilie_daumenpos: :smokin: :smilie_daumenpos:

(PS: you can lock this thread, admins. My question has been answered)


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

FYI, the Williams GP30 just came out this year as a first step towards some scale and slightly more detailed locomotives at a more reasonable price point. it may still be more what you're after. The GP9 is based off of the postwar Lionel Geeps, so it obviously isn't as detailed as the scale locomotives of today.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the lack of detail is a major issue, you had best confine your looking at MTH in the Premier or the RailKing Imperial models, the basic RailKing or RailKing Rugged Rails models aren't typically detailed any better than Williams. Lionel also has some excellent and finely detailed locomotives.

You'll also be spending quite a bit more cash, you really do get what you pay for. 

One thing to consider, there are tons of excellent used locomotives that meet your criteria and will cost far less than buying factory new stuff. Most of my stuff comes to me used. 

I also suggest you actually look at both the Williams and the other brands before making a final decision, you might be pleasantly surprised by what you see.


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## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

*@gunrunnerjohn and santafe158:* Thanks for the help. Perhaps I can look on eBay or some other site (if you know any good ones, please PM me!) for some of my locomotives from my list that fit my budget as well. I am still considering the Bachmann GP30 (looks decent overall) along with several MTH locomotives (Rail King F7, GP9, and other models). Here is how it breaks down:

*Plan 1:* Buy 2 to 3 new locomotives (1 Bachmann/2 MTH or all 3 MTH) and stay under $800 price range.

*Plan 2:* Buy 1 new LIONEL locomotive ($400 to $500 range) along with 1 new/newer MTH loco (while staying under $800)

*Plan 3:* Find as many decent used locomotives online (2 to 4) from either LIONEL or MTH while staying under the $800 price range.

Found out that the nearest O-scale model railroading store to me has one or two of the *MTH Union Pacific Veranda Turbine* units in storage. Costs roughly $1,000 (comes with five boxcars and a caboose as well), but I'll add to to my list as a "future investment" for next year if I play my cards right and they don't sell them.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're contemplating command operation at some point, you should give some thought to sticking with one command system, unless you plan on doing what I did and having both Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS installed.


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## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you're contemplating command operation at some point, you should give some thought to sticking with one command system, unless you plan on doing what I did and having both Lionel Legacy and MTH DCS installed.


Well, I did want to eventually upgrade to a command system down the road (like by end of 2014), but for starters, I will be using just the conventional method of control. I would not mind having both LL and DCS when I get that far along with my eventual layout plans.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

All the command locomotives can be run in conventional mode, so it would probably be a better idea to look into a couple of those now if the plan is to upgrade anyway.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As Jake says, if you are seriously considering command in the near future, I'd probably be pointing my thinking in that direction now.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

As above; spend a little more for a locomotive that has command/ control. It's a lot cheaper than adding it later. Don


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## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks again for the suggestions and advice, everybody. This community never ceases to amaze me with how helpful, knowledgeable, and informative you guys are. I have decided to invest in 1 locomotive for now (Lionel with command system) for my future investment into the world of command down the road. :smilie_daumenpos: :smokin: :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Which Lionel are you considering? I'd seriously consider a Legacy model, the sounds and features will amaze you.


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## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Which Lionel are you considering? I'd seriously consider a Legacy model, the sounds and features will amaze you.


In response to your question, here are the current LIONEL locomotives that I am considering at this moment (complete with links that list features, command options, etc):

*1. Union Pacific GP-9 diesel #261 with Legacy/TMCC (2012 Signature Edition)*
http://www.westerndepot.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_503_34_287/products_id/31763

*2. Southern Pacific bloody nose GP-9 #3414 w/ Legacy/TMCC (2013 Signature Edition)*
http://www.westerndepot.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_503_34_287/products_id/35452

*3. Union Pacific U30C diesel #2897 w/ Legacy/TMCC (2011)*
http://www.westerndepot.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_503_34_287/products_id/30732

4. *Western Pacific LEGACY/TMCC Scale F-3 A-B Diesels*
http://www.lionelstore.com/locomotives/f3-ab-legacy-wp.html
EDIT: Should be fixed

Nope, but now they're fixed.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

You'll have to fix your links.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd do some searching on those models, because that's not the cheapest prices around. For just one example:

*Union Pacific U30C diesel #2897 w/ Legacy/TMCC (2011)*
http://hobbystation.net/2011lionelpreorder6-38420unionpacificu30c2897estjuly429.aspx

A bummer, as Charles Ro had a blowout sale a few months back on the U-boats, I got my PRR set for $250 each, NIB.  They're always one place to check. A couple more are ModelTrainStuff and WholesaleTrains.


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## California RailFan508 (Jul 2, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'd do some searching on those models, because that's not the cheapest prices around. For just one example:
> 
> *Union Pacific U30C diesel #2897 w/ Legacy/TMCC (2011)*
> http://hobbystation.net/2011lionelpreorder6-38420unionpacificu30c2897estjuly429.aspx
> ...


Thanks for the help, John. The site I was posting from is the nearest O-Scale Model Railroad store in my area, and their prices seem to be higher than I thought. Can't wait to finally invest in a new locomotive with future Legacy/TMCC control planned by the end of next year.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Be careful! Once you go to Legacy and see how great things run, you'll be totally spoiled for conventional running!


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

*gunrunnerjohn:*

Based on the catalog for Lionel that MTH offers on their web page, the choices of new O gage rolling stock and loco's seems much better with the MTH line compared to the Lionel line. Not only that, it appears in the pictures that the MTH stuff (especially the MTH Premier line and Rail King Scale line) has superior detail. The choices in the basic Rail King line also seem more varied. Then there is the MTH DCS Remote Control System and the Proto 3.0 control and sound system which seem more leading edge than the equivalents in the Lionel line. The current MTH cataloged Lionel stuff uses MTH DCS (???). I have only done a cursory review. Am I missing something? I understand the draw of the Lionel name and perhaps its potential for retaining future value but for an operating layout should that make a difference in rolling stock and loco choices?



*California RailFan508:*

I too am starting my new layout (7 x 9). I have the track and will start on the bench work next week. I have no rolling stock or engines yet except for a RTR MTH passenger train set for the Xmas tree which will probably be the first train to run on the new layout until I get some other rolling stock and loco's. (It is capable of full DCS and Proto 3.0.) I am a long way from having a working layout and buying rolling stock purchases will be delayed for now. I just don't want to make a mistake in my selection of rolling stock and loco's. (MTH vs Lionel). My current plan is to have one Lionel tin plate passenger train (Proto 3.0) and one modern MTH freight train to start with. But I have plenty of time to evaluate other choices and combinations.

I would like to point out a mistake I made in my recent HO trolley layout so others might learn from it. I under sized my first layout and once finished it was boring. So I then added a new section that increased the complexity and boring went away. For this O gage layout I spent a lot of time trying different track plans on the software, homing in on what I really wanted. I made a list of desired features after reviewing layouts by others and made up my own layout that will not be boring to run. I want a long track run in a small space, double tracks all the way around the dogbone loops, crossovers in both directions and reversing track in both directions. The software made it easy to come up with a viable layout in my limited space. So don't underestimate how complex you want your layout because that complexity takes away the boredom of operating the layout. KISS is bad in the case of a train layout is what I found out the hard way.

*LDBennett*


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lynn, I like both Lionel and MTH. I also have both DCS and Legacy systems.

I am not at all interested in some future value of either of the brands, only what they bring to the party today. That being said, both companies have some great looking and performing stuff. I rate the Lionel Legacy sound as the best of the lot, and I'm not sure why MTH hasn't kept up, especially with PS/3 being a newer system. I was pretty disappointed that PS/3 didn't really bring any improvements in the basic operation or sound sets to the party. Also, the MTH wireless drawbar has been very problematic for many people, and it just looks flimsy to me, so I understand why it's an issue.

As for operation, I prefer the Legacy remote to the DCS remote as far as usability is concerned. The little thumbwheel is now nearly as precise and easy to use as the big red knob. Also, the Lionel active keypad is great for changing the keytops to match the operating environment. If you're running the TMCC crane, all the crane icons appear, if you're running a steamer, the steamer icons appear, etc. As far as the "superior" detail, I'll put my Lionel Vision Line genset up against anything that MTH has ever made as far as attention to detail.

Finally, for the novice, I believe that Legacy is much easier to get running and requires no special wiring practices for the layout. I took my Legacy set to a train club that runs only conventional equipment to demo the command environment because they thought it would be so complicated. I took it out of the box, connected the one wire to the outside rail of the track, plugged in the command base, and said: "Ready to go!". We plopped a couple of Legacy locomotives on the track and set the transformer outputs to 18 volts and we were off running command.

I think both companies make a quality product, and I have lots of MTH stuff. One thing I like about MTH is the fact they make a lot of stuff that is different and Lionel doesn't do anything comparable. I like the fact that I can buy the current generation DCS upgrade kit and upgrade existing stuff to the full DCS functionality. With Lionel, you can't buy Legacy update kits, only TMCC upgrade kits with a lot more limitations on the sounds. That's clearly a win for MTH.


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

*Williams Engines*



California RailFan508 said:


> As some of you already know, I will be getting back into the world of O-scale Model Railroading later this year (around November) when I start work on a 9x9 layout that will be placed in my old bedroom (11 x 12 room) after I move into a new, larger room. Since my budget (roughly $1250 to $1500) is modest, I will most likely be adding two to three locomotives to my current collection (4-6-4 and ALCO PA-1).
> 
> Price-wise, I have been looking into several Bachmann O-Scale 3-Rail locomotives to add to my modest collection, ones that will fit in with my 1930's to 1970's-themed layout. Having never owned brands outside of K-Line and LIONEL, I was wondering if there is anyone on the forum can help me out with these questions:
> 
> ...


I have 2 Baldwin Shark ABA Sets. Pennsylvania green freight and Red Passenger and a set of the cars. These friggin' thongs will pull stumps. I rewired both of the to slow them down a bit and have the amperage as torque rather than speed. One fell off the table last year and all that happend is a horn broke off. It's intact enough to repair which is on my fall todo list. 

I also got the Broadway Limited Passenger set to go with the Passenger engine. I'ts quite a sight! Only bad thing is these tend to be on the larger end of the "scale". They appear to be big! With the 3 engines and 4 cars the passenger train takes up a lot of track. I found a guy who has parts for them inexspensively and I could motor all 4 dummies for not a lot of money. And they were cheap for what you got.

I like them, and would even more if I had more running room (6x10 for now). And they can be had cheaply if you look hard enough. I got mine from Trainworld on sale and ebay.

They have plenty of other engines that are scaled smaller, I would suggest you try to see one in person to judge for yourself. Or in a photo that gives a sense of scale.

Bachmann is pretty good about thier support. I'm pretty sure the Williams engines are all not Bachmann designs whether that is good or bad is up to you. 


Frank


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