# would a Steam-Electric Locomotive actually work



## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

i found this design for a modern Steam engine that is built to run on altenative fuels like biogas and i was wondering if maybe it could work in a locomotive sort of like what happend with steam turbines


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

That animation looks extremely complicated and over-engineered.
But yes. Steam driven electric turbines have kept the lights on in the nation for decades. Scaling the process down I believe scales down output as well? So, possible? Yes. Practical? I’m not so sure. You’d need a tiny turbine.


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

OilValleyRy said:


> That animation looks extremely complicated and over-engineered.
> But yes. Steam driven electric turbines have kept the lights on in the nation for decades. Scaling the process down I believe scales down output as well? So, possible? Yes. Practical? I’m not so sure. You’d need a tiny turbine.


not a turbine a piston engine like the one up there


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

The Swiss actually did it during ww2. They had steam locos they equipped with electrical heating elements due to much of their rail network being electrified already and most of their coal coming from Germany which wasn’t exporting coal


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

Jscullans said:


> The Swiss actually did it during ww2. They had steam locos they equipped with electrical heating elements due to much of their rail network being electrified already and most of their coal coming from Germany which wasn’t exporting coal


again not what i meant i mean the steam engine shown above but inside a body similar to Diesel with a Natural Gas tender sort of like this Florida East Coast Diesel-Gas Hybrid but with a Z8 or Z6 steam engine and Water tube boiler replacing the prime mover


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

A steam turbine locomotive is a steam locomotive which transmits steam power to the wheels via a steam turbine. Numerous attempts at this type of locomotive were made, mostly without success.


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

Old_Hobo said:


> A steam turbine locomotive is a steam locomotive which transmits steam power to the wheels via a steam turbine. Numerous attempts at this type of locomotive were made, mostly without success.


well think of a steam turbine electric but replace the turbine with a Z type 4 stroke steam engine so its a steam engine but its laid out a bit like a diesel engine


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I’m sure someone could theoretically make one but the idea of steam driving any form of motive power with steam expansion now days would be a lot more expensive with all the complicated machining and mechanical parts to do it efficiently and reliably wouldn’t be very feasible. Nearly anything is possible but the question would be is it worth going back to antiquated technology with higher maintenance costs


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

I think anyone who would consider such follie loves to over engineer.stuff.
We already know we can make high torque electric motors that can handle loads, why in the H.E.double hockey sticks would you want to decrease efficiency and add another process to complicate an end result???
Today we see locomotives using alternate fuels to make electricity to drive wheel motors. 
I would LOVE to see a comeback to steam locomotives but there are just too many tree huggers drinking the coolaid.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Could it be made? Sure. Will it be made? Maybe a one-off might be created for someone that was into such endevors. There certainly won't be a commercially viable product that operates in that manner, it would be horribly inefficient! Why in the world would you convert your steam into reciprocating motion and then go to rotary motion when a turbine will do it in one step?


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

SF Gal said:


> I think anyone who would consider such follie loves to over engineer.stuff.
> We already know we can make high torque electric motors that can handle loads, why in the H.E.double hockey sticks would you want to decrease efficiency and add another process to complicate an end result???
> Today we see locomotives using alternate fuels to make electricity to drive wheel motors.
> I would LOVE to see a comeback to steam locomotives but there are just too many tree huggers drinking the coolaid.





Jscullans said:


> I’m sure someone could theoretically make one but the idea of steam driving any form of motive power with steam expansion now days would be a lot more expensive with all the complicated machining and mechanical parts to do it efficiently and reliably wouldn’t be very feasible. Nearly anything is possible but the question would be is it worth going back to antiquated technology with higher maintenance costs


i am talking about a Z type steam engine they are much lower maintence and much higherpower then the steam engine of old and are slightly more efficent the diesel engines


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What is a Z type steam engine?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

John, the ‘Z‘ stands for Zero chance of it happening….


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

Old_Hobo said:


> John, the ‘Z‘ stands for Zero chance of it happening….


sigh


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

Steam powered turbines and dynamos are still used in New York City today, for electricity generation. They’re under the streets of NY. Those plummets of steam coming from the manhole covers on nearly every avenue are exhaust ports belonging to Con Edison Steam generators.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What is a Z type steam engine?


John;

Its a Z-scale model of a steam engine. Would the fact that it runs on electricity make it a "steam electric"? 😄

Traction Fan


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

traction fan said:


> Its a Z-scale model of a steam engine. Would the fact that it runs on electricity make it a "steam electric"? 😄


Then how the heck does live steam conversion enter into the discussion? You're lucky you can fit a tiny electric motor into a Z-scale locomotive!  The OP has dragged this thread into the weeds!


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

From the looks of the picture above it’s almost set up like a variable displacement hydraulic pump so the plate angle changes which proportionately changes stroke on the piston. Yes this could increase efficiency a lot and could probably be a plausible idea if you wanted to engineer something like it. It could probably spin a generator fast enough to make it able to be done but the boiler, fire box, tender, and all the electrical components would have to fit inside the car body of the locomotive. Doing that would be like cramming 10 pounds of poo into a 5 pound bag


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

traction fan said:


> John;
> 
> Its a Z-scale model of a steam engine. Would the fact that it runs on electricity make it a "steam electric"? 😄
> 
> Traction Fan


no its a new design of steam engine that was developed in the 21st century designed to solve some of the energy issues that we will likely be facing soon that animation is a small 6 cylinder Z type engine its more efficent then internal combustion engines and maybe some diesel engines


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I think it suffices that none of us have ever heard of a Z-Type engine, that indicates it's certainly far from mainstream.


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## NorthwestPennsyGuy (12 mo ago)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, I think it suffices that none of us have ever heard of a Z-Type engine, that indicates it's certainly far from mainstream.


yes they are VERY VERY niche but you can build at home and they are quite powerful for their size that Z6 engine can produce about 10 hp running off a pressure cooker and if you you scaled it up with 12 cylinders and a big 400 psi watertube boiler you could generate a few thousand horsepower enough to power 6 big traction motors


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Seems like steam-electric (with traction motors) was originally tried, way back in 1938 and again in 1947:
















See:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_steam_turbine_locomotives




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_and_Ohio_class_M-1






__





Chesapeake & Ohio M-1 Turbine






donsdepot.donrossgroup.net


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

And was deemed a non-success…..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

J.Albert1949 said:


> Seems like steam-electric (with traction motors) was originally tried, way back in 1938 and again in 1947:
> See:
> 
> 
> ...


And failed to gain acceptance in both instances. A lot of idea have been tried over the years, and those that didn't make the cut failed for a very good reason, usually economics. 

OTOH, there's no argument that the C&O Coal Turbine makes a really cool model!


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

NorthwestPennsyGuy said:


> yes they are VERY VERY niche but you can build at home and they are quite powerful for their size that Z6 engine can produce about 10 hp running off a pressure cooker and if you you scaled it up with 12 cylinders and a big 400 psi watertube boiler you could generate a few thousand horsepower enough to power 6 big traction motors


That’s an interesting design, but it seems suited for stationary work. It has a lot of moving parts and looks somewhat fragile, and might not stand up to the kind of banging and jolting that you get in railroading. A water tube boiler, if I’m not mistaken, is also not terribly suited for railroad work. It was one of the sources of difficulty on the Jawn Henry, IIRC. Also, coal dust and water don’t agree with electric traction motors.


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