# Kato 4-8-4 for 12 inch Radius



## matisw (Jan 27, 2019)

As discussed in various other posts, for whatever reasons, my layout is limited by a 12" Radius.

I had my heart set on a Kato 4-8-4 FEF-3. However, I was concerned, as discussed which this big loco staying on the track. I know it won't "look" great on a small radius, but I was more concerned with it running well. So, I put in a lot of research, hearing back from forum members and relying largely based on: 

http://www.spookshow.net/loco/katogs4.html  

and other other sites such as:

http://www2.nau.edu/~twp/railclub/KatoGS4Review_scandura.pdf

It has become substantially clear to me that a Kato 4-8-4 FEF-3 would be risky on a 12" Radius.

However, the interesting thing I found out in my research is that the Kato 4-8-4 GS-4, which obviously also a very long loco and tender combo, was shown to have performed very well on as little as a 9.75" Radius. 

Why this is, I don't know (yet). I would be interested in hearing from anyone out there who might know.

But in the meantime, it looks like the Kato 4-8-4 GS-4 is the likely candidate. 

Now I have to either install DCC/Sound myself, or send it off to someone to do.

Any thoughts on 

1. Why the GS-4 handles "better" on tighter radii?
2. What sound DCC encoder would you recommend for this?

Thanks in advance for reading and responding to this.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

I don't have an answer for your question, however, when i read the title Kato 4-8-4, my first thought was my favorite 4-8-4. Daylight Special.
Dan


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## matisw (Jan 27, 2019)

yes, the Kato 4-8-4 GS-4, comes in the Daylight orange and black, 
black Excursion, or Red White and Blue freedom types

all the same under the hood, of course.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Big Loco, big mistake?*



matisw said:


> As discussed in various other posts, for whatever reasons, my layout is limited by a 12" Radius.
> 
> I had my heart set on a Kato 4-8-4 FEF-3. However, I was concerned, as discussed which this big loco staying on the track. I know it won't "look" great on a small radius, but I was more concerned with it running well. So, I put in a lot of research, hearing back from forum members and relying largely based on:
> 
> ...


 matisw;

I looked at the spookshow link and saw that the GS-4 has no "blind" (without flanges) drivers. That doesn't leave much in the way of tricks to get that long an eight coupled locomotive around tight curves. The drivers could have a lot of slop designed into the space between the back of the driver and the frame of the locomotive. This could let the drivers move in and out to keep them from binding between the rails of a tight curve. 
I also noticed that the GS-4 had cracking problems with the plastic sleeves that surround the metal axles between the drive wheels. That doesn't sound good at all! Have you read that part?

As I recounted before, I had the same problem with my eight-coupled Kato mikados. I'm extremely skeptical of the hearsay info saying that a 4-8-4 Northern does better on a 9-3/4" radius curve than a smaller mikado does on a 12" radius curve?!
I suggest (again) that you either look for a steam locomotive with six, or four, drivers; or rip out those 12" radius curves and install 16" radius ones. At the very least, do your own tests with the 4-8-4 (either variety) before you end up with a loco that derails often.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## matisw (Jan 27, 2019)

1) Spookshow also writes "A new production run of these models was released in 2017. And although they make use of the same "revised" drivers introduced in 2014, the problem with the loose bearing blocks appears to have been resolved. I'm not exactly sure what changed, but my guess is that the frame was modified slightly to accommodate the new bearings. *But whatever the case, the new drivers work great now and should last forever (or at least as "forever" as anything gets in model railroading).*"

2) I cannot rip out my 12" track, I am limited on my layout, I cannot realistically add width.

3) Kato has other options, perhaps I should get one and put sound in it, what do you think of these:

Kato 2-8-0
Kato 4-6-2?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*4-6-2 to the rescue?*



matisw said:


> 1) Spookshow also writes "A new production run of these models was released in 2017. And although they make use of the same "revised" drivers introduced in 2014, the problem with the loose bearing blocks appears to have been resolved. I'm not exactly sure what changed, but my guess is that the frame was modified slightly to accommodate the new bearings. *But whatever the case, the new drivers work great now and should last forever (or at least as "forever" as anything gets in model railroading).*"
> 
> 2) I cannot rip out my 12" track, I am limited on my layout, I cannot realistically add width.
> 
> ...


 matisw;

Since I have not used either the Kato 2-8-0, or the 4-6-2, I can't advise you from personal experience. :dunno: 
However, I do have an opinion. I suspect the 2-8-0 may behave like my 2-8-2s did, that is not very well on twelve inch radius curves! 
They may even share some of the same design, minus the rear truck. But I don't really know this, I've not seen these two locomotives that you're asking about.
My suspicion is based on a common practice among manufacturers to use as much of the mechanism of one loco as they can, in as many other models as possible. This makes good sense since molds, and tooling, are a large part of the manufacturer's cost. If he can use the same tooling for two products, that saves him money. It also boosts sales, since people will want to buy the "new" model.

Sorry that you can't go to bigger curves, major bummer.  Glad to hear that the sleeve problem has been dealt with. 
Since you can't increase the size of the track curves, you probably should decrease the size of the locomotive. The key factor in getting a locomotive through a curve is the length of the "rigid wheelbase."
In a steam locomotive, the rigid wheelbase is essentially the drivers. Have fewer drivers, or smaller drivers closer to each other, and you decrease the overall length of the driver part, or rigid wheelbase, of the locomotive. So, I think you should lean toward the 4-6-2 simply because it has fewer drivers. 
This is not an absolute guarantee that any 4-6-2 Pacific will automatically have a shorter rigid wheelbase than any 2-8-0 consolidation. There were some relatively small "light" Pacifics built, and some pretty big Consolidations. However it's a good general rule that the fewer drivers a steam loco has, the tighter curves it can operate on.

This same thing happened on real railroads. Ten-drivered Mountains couldn't run on some routes because there were curves too tight for them.
My own prototype the Milwaukee, tried their massive "Little Joe" electric locomotives on the coast division and found that the rigid wheelbase of these loco's four axle (D) trucks was damaging the track, and the wheels in those trucks, because the mountainous coast division had many tight curves.
The Little Joes were sent east where the track was generally straighter, and the much more flexible, shorter rigid wheelbase, Bipolars and Boxcabs were kept on the coast division. 
Articulated steam locomotives were developed for the same reason. Late steam locomotives were so long that their rigid wheelbase had to be divided into two sections, with one hinged, to make it around curves. See if you can get a return option on the loco you purchase. Then do your own testing to see how well or poorly it does on your 12" curves.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## matisw (Jan 27, 2019)

Thanks, that makes obvious sense, to reduce the size of the Loco.

I can't seem to find any smaller Katos steamers with sound.

My heart is set on Kato. Kato was my "first love." About 35 years ago when I had my first stab an n-scale, I had a beautiful green and white kato bullet train... That was my first intro to Kato.

I will keep looking... I don't want Bachmann... which seems to be the only other choice.


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

That Kato Loco is beautiful. It would be a wonderful addition to any layout, but yours. Sorry, mate. As TF said, and he has forgotten more about model railroading then I currently know, it could be a major league problemo. 

If that loco were going on my currently being designed layout, my 19.5 inch minimum radius turns would be upgraded to 22". Call me paranoid or foolish, but that is precisely what I would do. 

You need to work within the limitations of the layout you currently have. Nothing wrong with that, but long wheelbase stuff is just not going to work well and look well on those tight curves. There are plenty of locos and rolling stock that will. Pursue those. 

Cheers.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Do it yourself sound?*



matisw said:


> Thanks, that makes obvious sense, to reduce the size of the Loco.
> 
> I can't seem to find any smaller Katos steamers with sound.
> 
> ...




matisw;

You may be able to buy a DC Kato locomotive that will handle your tight curves. Then you can get a tsunami sound decoder, and install it yourself.
I agree with you about Kato Quality, it's excellent! 

As I mentioned in an earlier reply, New, current production, Bachmann is a mystery to me, because I don't own any. Others on here have experience with the new Bachmann locomotives and the posts have been favorable. One negative thing that has come up several times is the fairly low quality of Bachmann' factory installed decoders. So if you find a Bachmann that you like, I recommend the same strategy. Buy the plain DC model and install a tsunami sound decoder in it.
Installation is not too difficult. You have to be able to solder well, and work with small wires, but that's normal for N-scale.
I found a good speaker for N-scale sound, at a low price. I bought some little oval, eight-ohm, speakers at my local electronics surplus store. I think they were originally used in laptop computers. They are a perfect fit for an N-scale diesel, boxcar, or medium-to-large tender. You might check electronic outlets in your area, or possibly computer repair places, for the speakers. The "official hobby type" speakers are a lot more expensive. Also I would try the speaker without the high extra cost of an "official speaker enclosure." The car's plastic shell makes a good enclosure all by itself in most cases.

Good luck, have fun;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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