# A starting point



## mwilleson (Jun 13, 2014)

I have been looking to get a layout started so I have been reading the forum and thinking about what kind of setup I have space and $$ for. I don't want to buy a set and I don't have a ton of money. At this point I am mostly interested in the process of building the layout and running a train around it. Here is how I would like to start:

HO scale
4 x 8 layout
Logging layout
DC

Here is what I would like to start with:
Steam engine with tender
A logging car or two
Nickel-silver flex track
DC power pack 


I am hoping the group can recommend some reasonably priced, good quality components for the list above that I can buy individually to get started. Could you also recommend quality vendors to purchase from?

Thank you.
Mike


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Try to wire for upgrades and furture expanions.*

I suggest going to a local hobby shop that has model trains, usually there you can find
printed up plans for different types of layouts to fit in a specific area. These plans are
made by specific companies that advertise there product lines of model railroad supplies.
Eventually you'll get a better idea of what you want for the space you have. Anyway try your local hobby shop first. There is also the used market for model railroad supplies. That may be a better cost effective. route to go. Welcome to this new exciting hobby! I'm
sorry I could not be more specific. Good luck on your journey though.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Welcome to the forum. 

Your best bet for a vendor is your local hobby shop if you have one. It's always nice to be able to put your hands on a product if your new to the hobby. 

No hobby shop you say than on line is all there is. That's the case with me. 
Internet vendors I deal with are Walthers, modeltrainstuff.com and and many recommend Train World.com. If you really know what you are looking for than E Bay is good as well but be careful, not everything is as it seems. 

Atlas flex or sectional track and Peco turnouts are what I'm using. 
I'm not doing steam so no recommendation there but Bachmann seems like a good low cost option. I have a few of their diesels and, for the money, pretty good.

DC????? I'm DCC. 

This is one of my favorites for logging. 
A simple design beautifully executed. You don't have to be overly complex to have a nice layout. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=26243

Magic


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Here is a link to the a logging railroad by one of our members (Wvgca). You can get some ideas from looking at his layout

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=26243


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

As others have said you need to find or create a track plan first of all. There are plenty of ideas on the net. Next plan it all out on your 8 x 4. Don't be tempted to try and cram a lot of track in. I use Peco code83 track and turnouts (83 refers to the height of the rail which is prototypical to the lighter track found on a logging line) you don't need to buy any track, yet, you can download the turnout templates from Peco's website: http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=tempc83

Peco code 83 is made to specifically match the U.S. prototypes and is excellent quality. As for locos Bachmann offer well priced quality items but their rolling stock can be bettered by others.

Good luck.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Welcome!

Sounds like you're just getting your feet wet, so you probably don't have much idea what you really want to do yet. I would look on this first layout as an experiment, and be prepared to rip it apart and redo it in a couple of years. Most people eventually get tired of a train taking laps on a 4x8.

It's hard to recommend a hobby shop when your location (Central Plains) covers thousands of square miles -- and doesn't necessarily narrow it down to one country. Online, I have found MB Klein (dba modeltrainstuff.com) to be the best. Train World is good if you know exactly what you want (it's hard to browse), Internet Hobbies and Wholesale Trains can have good prices, but I've had the occasional order with both get screwed up -- not enough to make me not recommend them, but enough to advise caution (time is the biggest issue -- sometimes they show stuff as available when in fact it isn't). Walthers is the biggest wholesaler in North America, and has far and away the most items, but they won't undercut their dealers, so you'll generally pay MSRP with them. Their site is really useful for seeing what is available, though. It's even worth the $16 to get their catalog for a handy reference.

Nickel-silver flextrack from any manufacturer will be fine. I prefer MicroEngineering because it isn't springy like other brands; many people hate it for the same reason. Let price be your guide (Walthers is particularly expensive, and I find it hard to justify the price difference). Track itself isn't very expensive; turnouts are another matter. My personal favorite are the Walthers Shinohara; many like Peco. Atlas is OK, and will probably work, but not quite the quality of the others.

For the locos and cars, anything will run just fine. More money buys you greater detail, and in the case of cars, knuckle couplers and metal wheels. Pretty much only Bachmann is making steam locos at the low end of the price range. Their Spectrum line is very good. Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) and MTH make the top of the line steamers, but you will pay top dollar for them.

For a DC power pack, I would go with MRC, although my recommendation here is that you re-think your decision to start in DC. Yes DCC has a higher initial outlay, and no, you won't use all the capabilities up front, but you'll probably want to convert later, and going in up front will save you some time and effort down the road. The most important advantage you will see with a beginning layout is the ability to keep more than one loco on the layout without complicated wiring.

Lastly, I want to second what the others have said. Spend some time designing your layout before you run out and start buying stuff. You'll run less risk of wasting money that way.

Hope that helps.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*rail code choice,so many to chose from.*

There are all sorts of code rails The height of the rail is in 1/1,000 of an inch. At the club 
I was considering joining, they use code 55 rail, that's almost1/2 the size of code100.
Good luck with the choices you have too make
Regard's,tr1


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mike

A lot of very valid suggestions.

I started my layout with used gear from a Craigslist post.
I was lucky enough that they had a complete DCC system
including two locos at half the new price. They are all running
smoothly a couple years later.

There should be even more DC offerings since it was a system
in use for decades. Be sure to test run any loco you
are considering. Steamers, especially, need TLC almost
right from the start because of the more or less complex
drive rods on the wheels. The source is usually estate sales.

The 'plains' may not offer as much as here in the big City, but
it's worth a try. Check the list in nearby large cities. Also
check Amazon and Ebay. There are some amazing values to
be had if you watch closely.

You would likely be offered values in brass track. That's one
to pass by. Stay with nickle/silver flex track...AND PECO
INSULFROG turnouts. There is special track for logging
railroads if that is your plan.

Don


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## mwilleson (Jun 13, 2014)

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate it.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Hi, Mike, 
For your new logging road, I would suggest a Bachmann 2-6-0 Mogul (modeltrainstuff.com, 90.00), and three disconnect log cars, Kadee #107 (Kadee.com, $20 +/-). As it's been stated, the B-man is a lower end model but you'll find it quite serviceable hauling your logs. 
You may want a single loop for continuous running, with a couple of spurs heading up the mountain to your virgin forests. Switches, I would go with a couple of Peco and stick with manual control. That's prototypical, anyway, unless you feel like handlayin' a couple of stub switches...Hey, go for it!! There's about 5000 opinions on here about what you might could do, but that's mine!! Best of luck!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the only change on your 'start with' list that i would change would be the nickel silver track ... brass works just as well, but is a lot cheaper because it requires more frequent cleaning .. and for a starter / learning layout that doesn't matter very much..
if you can get three times the track / turnouts for the same money,or less, your dream will happen sooner quite likely, used is generally okay, for all components..check local craigslist for a start...and it's possible to get a used layout as well, that's a pretty good way to learn as well


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## mwilleson (Jun 13, 2014)

cid said:


> Hi, Mike,
> For your new logging road, I would suggest a Bachmann 2-6-0 Mogul (modeltrainstuff.com, 90.00).


Thanks for the recommendation. I see some of those models that are listed as "DCC Ready" and some are not for the same price. Does the "DCC Ready" mean they will run on DC, but if at some point I plunge into DCC, they can be converted? 

I also see some descriptions that say "DCC on board". What does this mean?

Real rookie here....my only train set was a $5 set from a pawn shop 40 years ago. I still remember it fondly though


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

If not described as DCC ready it probably means they don't have a plug ready to accept a decoder and will need to be hard wired. DCC ready means they do have a plug thus simplifying installation. A unconverted DCC ready loco will run DC only. DCC on board means the decoder is installed. You need to program the decoder once it is on the track in order for it to respond to the commands from your DCC controller.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

mwilleson, you are right that dcc ready locos will run dc and have a dcc port with a 'jumper' board on top, when you wish to convert you remove the jumper board, and plug in your dcc controller board ..
dcc on board means that they already have a dcc controller installed, most newer ones are 'dual mode' which means if they see dc they will run on it [usually]


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

wvgca said:


> the only change on your 'start with' list that i would change would be the nickel silver track ... brass works just as well, but is a lot cheaper because it requires more frequent cleaning .. and for a starter / learning layout that doesn't matter very much.. if you can get three times the track / turnouts for the same money,or less, your dream will happen sooner quite likely, used is generally okay, for all components.


I agree that brass track is perfectly usable if you don't mind the cleaning (which does not take long unless you have a huge layout or inaccessible areas of track (like inside tunnels). I also like the look of brass track better (but that is a personal preference, of course).

However, I would be wary of brass turnouts. Brass track and turnouts have not been made for some time. On the older brass turnouts that I started with, the points (the moving parts) had gotten a little loose, which led to derailments. Newer nickel turnouts (at least the Atlas ones -- which are the only ones that I have experience with) are better made than the older brass ones and are less likely to cause derailment problems.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

While I don't disagree with wvgca on the utility of brass track -- my recently torn down layout had pieces of 30 years old brass track on it -- nor the ability to find large quanties of second hand stuff dirt cheap, that isn 't where I would economize.

Frustration with operating problems is probably the single biggest reason newcomers quit, so I would take every measure possible to avoid those, including getting all new track and (especially) turnouts.


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## mwilleson (Jun 13, 2014)

wvgca said:


> dcc ready locos will run dc and have a dcc port with a 'jumper' board on top, when you wish to convert you remove the jumper board, and plug in your dcc controller board ..
> dcc on board means that they already have a dcc controller installed, most newer ones are 'dual mode' which means if they see dc they will run on it [usually]


So if two engines are closely priced and one is listed as DCC Ready and one is listed as DCC On Board, which is preferred?...and why of course? Trying to learn


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mwilleson said:


> So if two engines are closely priced and one is listed as DCC Ready and one is listed as DCC On Board, which is preferred?...and why of course? Trying to learn


Do you want a loco with DCC (and sound, maybe) or not?

You can buy a basic DCC decoder for about $20; $50 for sound (rough guesses -- don't everyone start nit-picking pricing). So, if you're talking same make and model, just with or without DCC, look at the price difference. If it's more than the above, you're probably better off buying the DCC Ready version and installing your own, if you really want to save a few bucks. This is generally what I do -- buy the DCC Ready version and install the decoder myself.

But if you have DCC and aren't willing to add the decoder yourself, the DCC Onboard version doesn't do you much good. You have to pony up for the decoder. Similarly, why buy the DCC Onboard unit if you don't have DCC -- wvcga's point, that most new DCC locos will run on DC only is not universally true, and you will certainly burn up a non-dual mode decoder in short order on a DC layout.

Of course, if the make and model aren't the same, you're comparing apples and oranges.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

mwilleson said:


> So if two engines are closely priced and one is listed as DCC Ready and one is listed as DCC On Board, which is preferred?...and why of course? Trying to learn


It's not a matter of preference.
For a given model, DCC on board and DCC ready are the same loco.
The one with DCC on board will
run on a DCC layout. The DCC ready will not run
on a DCC layout safely. It should be run
on a DC layout. In addition to cost, you must
have a DCC controller to run the DCC locos. If you
don't have the DCC controller and don't plan to buy
one soon, choose the DCC ready version. As stated,
you can plug a DCC decoder in at the time you convert
to DCC.

Don


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## mwilleson (Jun 13, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Do you want a loco with DCC (and sound, maybe) or not?
> 
> Similarly, why buy the DCC Onboard unit if you don't have DCC -- wvcga's point, that most new DCC locos will run on DC only is not universally true, and you will certainly burn up a non-dual mode decoder in short order on a DC layout.


Maybe I'll step back and clarify what I am trying to understand.

I am planning to start with DC. I need to get started on a lower budget. It is very possible I would be interested in DCC later.

CID made the recommendation of a Bachmann 2-6-0 Mogul from modeltrainstuff.com.

When I go there an look around, I see either locomotives listed as DCC ready or DCC on board.

Can I run either type on DC without burning them up in short order OR is one safe to run on DC without burning it up over time?

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate the help trying to decipher this stuff. As I said, my only train was a $5 unit from a pawn shop forty years ago.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

mwilleson said:


> Maybe I'll step back and clarify what I am trying to understand.
> 
> I am planning to start with DC. I need to get started on a lower budget. It is very possible I would be interested in DCC later.
> 
> ...


Since you do not plan to install DCC any time soon, stay with
DCC ready or DC locos. It is claimed that some DCC on board
locos will run on a DC layout but you'll be better off staying with
DC or DCC ready locos until you get a DCC controller. A loco
running on a system it is not designed for can be damaged.

In simple terms: A DC layout track has a DC voltage that varies
from 0 to 14 or so volts from a power pack knob.
That determines the speed. The polarity
of the rails determines whether it goes forward or backward.
The motor is powered directly, through the wheels from the track.

A DCC layout track is always powered by a form of AC running
around 14 to 18 volts. It does not vary or change
polarity. The digital decoder inside the loco 
converts the AC to DC and reacts to digital commands from the
controller to cause the loco to move forward or backward
and to vary the speed. The decoder is powered through
the wheels on the track. The motor is powered through
the decoder.

Those differences is why you should run a DC loco on a
DC layout and a DCC on board loco on a DCC track.

Don


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Is there a particular reason you want to stick with the 4x8? Once you add walk-around space of 2ft/side (really a minimum) you're talking about taking up an 8x12 room.

What size space are you putting the layout in and are there any obstructions (doors, windows, closets, etc.) that you have to contend with.

Can this be a semi-permanent layout or do you need to be able to take it apart (apartment dweller or homeowner.)

Many people immediately think 4x8 for their first layout because it's easy.....but MAN does it get boring just going round and round.

If you post some pics of the room you plan to use, there are many on here that could offer suggestions that would be just as easy to build, but MUCH more enjoyable to operate.


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## mwilleson (Jun 13, 2014)

Thanks for the detailed response DonR. Exactly the info I needed.

I put down 4x8 as a basic. I am not yet sure how much room I will have....we move tomorrow and there is a portion of the basement I am going to claim. I also am a woodcarver so I need some room for a bench for that as well. Who knows...it could be 3 x 10 or 5 x 7....

Hoping to develop some type of logging layout as think older things are more interesting....(my large scale project is a '49 Studebaker pickup).

I appreciate everyones input!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mwilleson said:


> Maybe I'll step back and clarify what I am trying to understand.
> 
> I am planning to start with DC. I need to get started on a lower budget. It is very possible I would be interested in DCC later.
> 
> ...


As we said, if you don't have DCC, you don't want the DCC-Onboard version. Yes, many decoders are dual mode and work with either, but in my experience the DCC version do not work all that well in DC only. DCC-ready means that all the necessary prep work inside the shell has been done, and all you'll have to do is purchase a decoder, pull out a small jumper card, and plug in the decoder.

If you know you'll be installing DCC in the very near future, then go ahead and get the DCC Onboard version. Otherwise, get the DCC-Ready version and save a few bucks.


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