# How Much Access Do You Really Need Below Deck?



## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I have been planning on building my bench work out of 2 tilting Harbor Freight Welding Tables on wheels. I would build a lower frame that attaches them and gives me short raised legs to build my main table frame to (4x9). I was shooting for 42 or so inch final height (I am 6'5")

Do I REALLY need to be able to access the underside of the table more than just to reach something? The tilting table would be fairly complex. Anything electrical I can add wire extensions before I install them to be able to grab them from below. I plan a side mounted circuit panel. Is there a reason I have to get under that table? I broke my back some years ago and that would be a miserable task, so I would have to recruit my wife for it.

Once again - I APPRECIATE your thoughts.

Rob


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

It is certainly possible to construct a layout without EVER going underneath it, but is is something of a bother having to hide all the wires, switch machines, and circuit cards that normally reside under the table.

Once I wire a layout and install and connect the switch machines, I don't venture under mine very often. Only to make repairs. The problem is getting it done the first time. As several of us have recommended elsewhere, make your layout out of light, small modules using a wood frame and extruded foam panels. These can easily be built at a more convenient location and installed individually. Likewise, should repairs be needed, it's a simple matter to take a module to your workbench and do the work there.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> Do I REALLY need to be able to access the underside of the table more than just to reach something? Anything electrical I can add wire extensions before I install them to be able to grab them from below. I plan a side mounted circuit panel. Is there a reason I have to get under that table?
> Rob


Sounds to me like you already have it figured out. My layout is only about 12” off the floor and it’s a PITA to shimmy under it to add wires or get to an access hatch. When I add something new like a switch or accessory, I sometimes extend the wiring out to the side of the platform to do the soldering. If you have access on both of the long sides, you shouldn’t need access hatches as you can reach 2 feet from the sides to fix any derailments.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Hide special circuits and buss boards inside your buildings. Make sure no wire joints are under the layout. Make your control panel so that it flips up. The only problem then would be turnout motors. Even then just use Caboose Industries ground throws on the ones nearer the front and hidden under small removable buildings in the back.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I have been planning on building my bench work out of 2 tilting Harbor Freight Welding Tables on wheels. I would build a lower frame that attaches them and gives me short raised legs to build my main table frame to (4x9). I was shooting for 42 or so inch final height (I am 6'5")
> 
> ...


Rob;

Murphy's law applies to model railroading as much as it does to any human endeavor. As soon as you decide you'll never need to get at that whatever it is, you will. If not today, then some day. So build your layout like you will have to work on everything often. That way, you probably won't, but you can, when your have to.
I'm partially disabled, & have two artificial knee joints, so crawling under the layout is not for me. I have rolled under, to get to my one unavoidable access hole at the back of my layout. I use the low stool in the first photo to roll under. I also rounded off, and padded, all the woodwork under there. I'm 6'-6" tall, and I don't enjoy bashing my head on sharp corners. 

All the wiring, turnout motors, frog polarity micro-switches, and any other electrics, have been moved to the front of my layout, right behind the fascia panels. They fold open for access to the electrical gear. (photos 2 & 3) The only stuff left under the layout is mechanical linkages between turnouts and their front-mounted motors, and power feed wires to the track. (photo 4)

This system is odd, I know. However, my nerve disorder is progressive and I'm 73 & get a little older, and less agile, every day. I don't want to give up on my layout, so I adapted it to fit my circumstances. My layout is also sectional, so as CTValley mentioned, I can pull a section and work on it at my workbench. This makes switch machine installation, (if using the conventional under-the-layout location) and wiring much much easier than crawling, (or even rolling), under the layout, and working over your head. Both of which are truly a royal PITA!

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

Once again, great advice. CT Valley - being a new guy to this I failed to take a lot of that into consideration. I don't think I understand how to make a layout modular so I will need to look into that more. If your track is all put together and attached to the layout, how do you remove the module without removing the track first? It looks like I should still build the basic light weight frame on the welding tables but make the layout itself modular. Then most every possibility is accounted for. 2 HF Welding tables is just over $100.00. Well worth it, and I already have most of the wood from other projects.

Looking at the Cedar Falls motors shot, I have to say - I have ham radios that are less complicated than that. I have never seen the underside of one. - I had no idea! 😊


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

For your modules to be removable, simply keep a short segment of track at each joint "floating". That is, don't solder rail joiners, and leave enough room so that you can slide the joiners off onto the adjacent track piece and lift out the floating section. If you have trouble with these sections not getting good power, solder on a short pigtail that plugs into the bus to power race of them individually.

People who move their modules frequently often cut the inside edge away, so that the rail rests on a shelf with a "guide" to the outside. Then the "bridge" segment can just be lifted out. If you do this, though, you will almost certainly need to power the "bridge" segment separately. 

On the other hand, since pulling out those modules will be an infrequent task, you can just lay the track normally and cut it if removal is necessary.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> Once again, great advice. CT Valley - being a new guy to this I failed to take a lot of that into consideration. I don't think I understand how to make a layout modular so I will need to look into that more. If your track is all put together and attached to the layout, how do you remove the module without removing the track first? It looks like I should still build the basic light weight frame on the welding tables but make the layout itself modular. Then most every possibility is accounted for. 2 HF Welding tables is just over $100.00. Well worth it, and I already have most of the wood from other projects.
> 
> Looking at the Cedar Falls motors shot, I have to say - I have ham radios that are less complicated than that. I have never seen the underside of one. - I had no idea! 😊


Bigfoot;

That "Cedar Falls motors" shot looks more complicated than it is, because everything is so close together. The same amount of electrical gear would be needed to perform the same functions if it were more spread out, & mounted under the table. The bottom view of the Cedar Falls module shows how those same functions could be done with no motors, making things a lot simpler & less crowded. Those "rod inside a tube" mechanical linkages work like bicycle brake cables. They can be operated by simple push-pull knobs or levers, instead of motors. I used the knob system on my grandson's little layout, and it works fine, is very reliable, and reasonably kid resistant.
The reason I used motors on my layout is that I wanted "route control." This is a system which can simultaneously set all the turnouts needed to get a train onto a given yard track. If you look at the orange control panel on the outside of the Cedar Falls fascia, you will see one rotary switch controls the whole yard. Just rotate the single knob to the desired track and roll trains.

Cedar Falls is also an illustration of one method of "how to make a layout modular."
First I'll get a couple of technical points out of the way.
Very strictly speaking, Cedar Falls, and the other pieces of my layout, are not "modules" at all, but rather "sections."
The difference is that a "module" (technically) is one of many identical, and interchangeable, parts that conform to the standards set by some modular organization. N-trak is a common example. Any 4' straight N-trak module of all the hundreds in the world can be physically substituted for any other 4' straight N-trak module.

Sections are just that. The pieces of somebody's personal layout. Typically sections are not interchangeable, and the layout only goes together one way. This is an arcane difference, and "modular" is by far the more common & popular term you will see used, even in describing a sectional layout. Nobody will have any difficulty understanding what you mean if you say "module" instead of "section."

My layout is also unusual since its a "Bookshelf Model Railroad." This means that each section of my layout has a "roof", or top shelf. When the railroad is mounted across the walls of my garage, the top shelves of all the sections form a long shelf for books & other storage. If you don't need that feature, a module can consist of a simple wood frame with whatever plywood, or foam, you want on top of the frame. The frames bolt together to form the layout.

You asked the question "If your track is all put together, and attached to the layout, how do you remove the module without removing the track first?" Well there are two systems, one OK, but a bit unsightly, and the other better-looking, but very impractical. I recommend the first option. Have a short, removeable, section of track span each joint between modules. These track sections are not glued, or otherwise attached, to the rest of the layout. Their rail joiners are left unsoldered, and some ties may be removed, or filed down a bit, to let the rail joiners slide back out of the way to let the section of track be removed prior to unbolting the section. The other option is to run the track right up to the joint between module frames, and join the tracks there as well. This all but inevitably leads to damaged track at the ends, and having tried it, frankly it does not work well at all. There is a third option for use on layouts where the only time you will need to separate the modules is when you move your household. Just lay & glue, track semi-permanently across the joints, and cut it when you move.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

I was working on revising my track plan when I needed to consult the track guide. It seems that Kato turn outs and such are all self contained. So there is no under table work other than dropping a wire unless there is something else I am missing. If not, the I can just whip together a table out of 2x4's and be on my way (I think I am going with a 4x9 free standing stable - although there WAS a mention of repurposing another room for the train that could give me a corner wall space (9x11))


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

My table is a giant U shape 11"x10' made up of 4 66"x54" tables connected together with a 2' aisle in the middle. All floated in a good size basement area.

I'm still playing with layout design using Anyrail


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> I was working on revising my track plan when I needed to consult the track guide. It seems that Kato turn outs and such are all self contained. So there is no under table work other than dropping a wire unless there is something else I am missing. If not, the I can just whip together a table out of 2x4's and be on my way (I think I am going with a 4x9 free standing stable - although there WAS a mention of repurposing another room for the train that could give me a corner wall space (9x11))


 Bigfoot;

Kato turnouts have their switch machine built into the gray plastic roadbed piece under the turnout. The switch machine is a unique single coil model that uses DC current reversal to operate. There are wires, a white & blue two-conductor cable with a plug on the end. Unless you want this to show, it will need to be under the table, along with track power feeders & possibly bus wires,+ any wiring for lighting and accessories. So there will be wiring, there always is. While leaving wiring exposed on top of the table, and burrowing into the foam on top of your layout, are both possible, the first is pretty ugly, and the second nearly impossible to alter, or repair. Under-the layout wiring has been widely used throughout model railroading's history for these reasons. Once installed properly, wiring doesn't need much maintenance, so having your wiring buried-in-the-foam is a possibility, its just rather permanent. Likewise, once installed, under-the-table wiring isn't likely to need frequent attention. Getting it under there in the first place is the only difficult part. 

Using 2 x 4s to build model railroad benchwork is overkill, and very heavy. Also 2 x 4s can warp. Will your 4' x 9' layout be in a basement? L-girders, made from a 1 x 3 and a 1 x 2, are just as strong as 2 x4s, a bit lighter, and can not warp. I use them, and recommend them. (see phots) 
Are you still planning to tilt your layout up for access to the bottom? If so, I would think lightweight construction would be important. The less weight you have to tilt, the better, especially since you said you have a bad back. 2" thick extruded foam board wouldn't require any plywood support, just a simple L-girder frame with 1 x 3 crosspieces every 16" or so. 

If you can get that 9 x 11 corner wall space, I'd grab it. That would allow you to have a nice layout which could be narrow enough to reach over, and require minimal working underneath, In fact, no working with you underneath, if you make it as removable modules. Another point for your consideration. If your a senior citizen and your back is not that good, the wiring in front system that I use, is just as easy to install as traditional under-the-table wiring, especially when you're starting from scratch. Just run your track feeder wire up to the front of the layout. Also, it does not need to be a complicated mass of electrical gear like my Cedar Falls module. If you use Kato turnouts, there are no switch machines to install, Kato already did that for you! Just drilling a hole for the turnout's wire and running it to the front, shouldn't be that hard. Kato's turnout control levers are quite bulky. You may elect to use smaller pushbuttons, or spring-loaded-center-off toggle switches, to control your Kato turnouts instead. Wooky Choo Baca, here on the forum has done just that, and can help you.
Another thing about Kato turnouts. The only access to their switch machine is by removing six screws and the bottom cover plate. So leave them loose enough that you can pull up a turnout for repairs if necessary. Also, use a CDU (Capacitive Discharge Unit) to operate your turnouts. Doing so will make it impossible to burn out a coil in any of your turnouts.

Good luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> My table is a giant U shape 11"x10' made up of 4 66"x54" tables connected together with a 2' aisle in the middle. All floated in a good size basement area.
> 
> I'm still playing with layout design using Anyrail


JeffHurl;

A two-foot aisle is a very narrow one. Could you expand it to three feet? In the long run, I think you will appreciate it.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> I was working on revising my track plan when I needed to consult the track guide. It seems that Kato turn outs and such are all self contained. So there is no under table work other than dropping a wire unless there is something else I am missing. If not, the I can just whip together a table out of 2x4's and be on my way (I think I am going with a 4x9 free standing stable - although there WAS a mention of repurposing another room for the train that could give me a corner wall space (9x11))


Let me second Traction Fan's point about using 2x4s. I started on my first layout before joining the forum. I used my old standard for work benches of a 2x4 frame and a plywood top. I knew the table did not have to support a lot of weight and I had cross members in the frame, so I only used 1/4 inch plywood. I put a couple sheets of foam on top to have room to excavate for a stream/lake and such. I admit it works and holds everything up, but it does take at least two people to move it any where. It is too heavy for me to move by myself. 

It is very overbuilt for what I need for an N gauge layout. I can guarantee that I will use the L shaped girders for my next layout. I will also think carefully about needing a plywood table top on it, instead of just using the sheet foam for the base. The foam itself is strong enough for the surface, especially with cross member braces underneath it. I used cross braces on 24 inch centers with the plywood, but I think I can get plenty of support for foam with 18 inch on center braces using the L-girders and no plywood.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

2x4" benchwork construction is way overkill. The only reason I would use 2x4 is if I already had them from a prior house construction project and had no future use for them.


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## Wooky_Choo_Bacca (Nov 13, 2020)

I heard my name called LOL (J/K) and agree, if I had to do this again I'd go with 1X4s instead of 2X4s, my "L" section is 1X4s and is much lighter and all is on casters. As TF mentioned I have Kato turnouts with toggle control switches which are momentary on-off- momentary on. Once again if I did a "do-over" I'd go with smaller toggles of the same configuration. I have the switches mounted roughly where the corresponding turnout is located, not shown but I marked each switch the way the turnout operated straight thru or to the siding. The switches along the bottom panel are my lighting controls not marked yet









Here is the inside of a Kato turnout, they are all similar in operation whether a single, single crossover, or a double crossover (X) The red arrow denotes the internal switch that throws power to the switched track / siding and also the plastic connection to the throw magnets (purple). The orange shows the control rod that actuates the points from one way to the other, make sure the rod is in it's anchor hole at the side and thru the metal piece at the bottom. The momentary on switch is most important and you don't want to hold it to "on" or you'll likely burn up this simple mechanism. Oh and the control wires are red and black, the blue and white with Kato are track power


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Even 1x4's is overkill for a lot of it. Rip those 1x4's down the center and make 1x2's out of them, "glue & screw" them to a 1x3 in an L or T shape with the grain perpendicular, and you will have a very strong, reasonably light structural piece. I use 1x4's only for the outside frame.


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

GREAT TIPS and information - THANK YOU ALL. The 2x4's only came into it because I already have a bunch of them sitting doing nothing. I know it will be heavy, but it will not come out of the basement without disassembly or saw anyway, besides if it leaves the basement (finished basement, climate controlled no dampness with wood floors) it is most likely because I am no longer around to continue with it.. I thought about the wiring, my idea is to make the wires longer before I feed them through the hole in the layout and just grab them from either side. I am also considering DCC for all of my switches, that would greatly simplify the wiring aspect, although I REALLY like the tactile of "throwing the switch" as opposed to dialing a number.

With my long reach I should be able to fish them through open hooks to keep them from sagging or have my wife do that. Even if I get the use of the room I have my eye on and get the 11' x 9' wall area, I think I will still make this 4x9 as a module to plug into the wall layout. I will try to grab a few pictures to make it clearer...

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE! I truly APPRECIATE your insight.

Rob


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> GREAT TIPS and information - THANK YOU ALL. The 2x4's only came into it because I already have a bunch of them sitting doing nothing. I know it will be heavy, but it will not come out of the basement without disassembly or saw anyway, besides if it leaves the basement (finished basement, climate controlled no dampness with wood floors) it is most likely because I am no longer around to continue with it.. I thought about the wiring, my idea is to make the wires longer before I feed them through the hole in the layout and just grab them from either side. I am also considering DCC for all of my switches, that would greatly simplify the wiring aspect, although I REALLY like the tactile of "throwing the switch" as opposed to dialing a number.
> 
> With my long reach I should be able to fish them through open hooks to keep them from sagging or have my wife do that. Even if I get the use of the room I have my eye on and get the 11' x 9' wall area, I think I will still make this 4x9 as a module to plug into the wall layout. I will try to grab a few pictures to make it clearer...
> 
> ...


Rob; 4' x 9' isn't a module, its an N-scale aircraft carrier!
You might consider making that large slab as an assembly of smaller sections ( 2' x 4.5' should work well.)

I'm glad to hear you will have your layout in a climate-controlled space. That's a definite plus.

Your idea of grabbing the dangling wires is a good one. You might visit your local Lowes store and buy one of these "Grip-n-Grab" gadgets. (see photos) It makes reaching things a lot easier, including reaching those wires. There are several brands of this gadget, but this one is the best. It will pick up a small finish nail, or a hammer. The others are limited in what they will grip, some to the point of absurdity. There's a folding one heavily advertised on TV (I think its called "the grabber") that has rubber cups on the jaw end, and is all but useless.

Many a modeler has spent years building a nice layout, all in one big piece, and not designed to be moved. Along comes the unexpected, a surprise change of household from his "forever home" , a new medical condition, a wheelchair, whatever, and then if, instead of one big piece, it was built as modules, that pays off big time. I should know. I've had two of those things happen in my life already, and I'm not ruling out the possibility of a wheelchair in my future.

If you want to use DCC to operate turnouts, you will need stationary decoders. Either one decoder per turnout, or enough multi channel stationary decoders to cover however many turnouts you have. I think the Kato electric turnouts can also be operated manually, I'm not sure. Perhaps Wooky_Choo_Bacca can enlighten me on that. If its true, then maybe you can get your "hands-on" throwing the switch feeling that way. 

Common cup hooks would work for holding your wires. If you're nice to your wife, maybe she will install them under the layout for you.

Good Luck & Have Fun with whatever you choose to build.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> GREAT TIPS and information - THANK YOU ALL. The 2x4's only came into it because I already have a bunch of them sitting doing nothing. I know it will be heavy, but it will not come out of the basement without disassembly or saw anyway, besides if it leaves the basement (finished basement, climate controlled no dampness with wood floors) it is most likely because I am no longer around to continue with it.. I thought about the wiring, my idea is to make the wires longer before I feed them through the hole in the layout and just grab them from either side. I am also considering DCC for all of my switches, that would greatly simplify the wiring aspect, although I REALLY like the tactile of "throwing the switch" as opposed to dialing a number.
> 
> With my long reach I should be able to fish them through open hooks to keep them from sagging or have my wife do that. Even if I get the use of the room I have my eye on and get the 11' x 9' wall area, I think I will still make this 4x9 as a module to plug into the wall layout. I will try to grab a few pictures to make it clearer...
> 
> ...


You should look at servo-based solutions to operating switches from Tam Valley Depot, or the almost identical Walthers Turnout Control System. Wiring is plug and play for both, although you do have to mount the machine under the layout. Both of these use push-button controls with directional LED indicators, although you can wire them to work with a DCC system too.


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## Wooky_Choo_Bacca (Nov 13, 2020)

Yes, Kato turnouts have both a manual control as well as electric. I've got all of mine powered by those little power "bugs", battery chargers, whatever they are called that came from other items that either died or were replaced, just make sure they are 10-12 VDC and at least 20 milliamp (ma) or so. You likely will only be operating one turnout at a time. For lighting you'll need the same with more amperage up to an amp or two

The manual slide control can be seen in the pic next to the moving points, these single crossovers have two sliders that operate both ends while the double crossover (X) has 4 that work independently in manual but all 4 points operate at same time electrically


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Have access to a table saw? Well then, what follows is something I have previously done for a layout frame.
Rip those 2”x4”s in half on the wide side. Saw blade takes away an 1/8” so you should end up with a 1-7/8” and a 1-1/2” piece. Now, take those pieces and rip them in half again through the thin side. Again, the blade takes away an 1/8” so, you’ll end up a 1/16” shy of 3/4” thickness for for each piece. No big deal.
You end up with a “two for one deal” and can now easily make the L-girders previously mentioned. Just do the glue & screw together thing right away after ripping the wood down before it starts to warp, and It will, quickly!


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