# Turnout Motor Piano Wire Hole Size



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I’m a day or two away from laying my first piece of track. I just need to practice my soldering skills before I dive in. It will be quite a while before I decide which turnouts will have motors and what type of motors I’ll use. In the meantime, I want to plan ahead and drill the hole for the piano wire before installing each turnout. The size of the hole varies by type as indicated below. 

Twin coil – unknown
Stall motors (Tortie) – 1/4”
Stall motors (SwitchMaster – 1/8”)
Servo motors (SwitchWright -Tam Valley) – 1/4” - 3/8”
Solenoid – unknown

The SwitchWright requires the largest hole, 3/8”. Will all of the other types work with a 3/8” hole?

My subroadbed is 2.5” minimum (1/2” plywood & 2” foam). It will be 1” – 2” thicker in some areas where there is an incline. Does the thickness of the subroadbed make a difference in the required hole size?


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

I have twin coil switch machines on the older part of my layout. What I did was to drill a small hole for a small piece of brass tubing that was just large enough for a piece of piano wire or similar wire to move the points of the turnout. 

I use what I call a "hot probe" to control the switch machines. On the face of the control panes, I put brass screws on the track plane laid out on the control panel. I have an old multimeter probe hooked up to the hot side and just touch the proble to the brass screw head corresponding to where I was the turnout to go. 

The layout is on half inch plywood. This part of the layout is 30 years old. Ancient technology, but it has been working flawlessly ever since it was installed. 

There was no use of foam back then and even if I were to start another layout, being that it would be permanent, I really see no use for foam.

If interested, I can supply photos.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I like Chet's idea of using a brass tube for the piano wire to run in. Should keep the wire from just bowing and not moving the turnout.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

While the TVD servos do advertise a 3/8" hole, and I did in fact install most of them that way, you don't need one that big. As assembled, the SG90 servo uses the mounting plate as a fulcrum, moving the points in the opposite direction as the servo arm throw. I did find that the 3/8" hole is a pretty workable size, and doesn't show at all under the turnout.

It is actually fairly simple to create an S hook of any length, threaded through a styrene or brass tube, which can throw the points with a much smaller hole (slightly greater than the throw of the points, in fact). I did this in two places where the depth of the foam exceeded the length of the wire.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

The turnout points only need to move an 1/8 of an inch or so, but there will be some bow in the wire to keep the side pressure. I went with fairly large holes on my layout. I don't remember the actual size I used but it was at least 3/8". I'm using Tortoise stall motors through 1/2" plywood and cork roadbed. One factor you need to consider is how accurate you can place the hole. I wanted to error on the side of too large a hole rather than too small. I drilled the hole before laying the track, so I figured there might be some misalignment. You won't see the hole from above the track. The worst that can happen is that you have open space between the ties on either side of the throw rod which would make it difficult to get ballast to stay there. If that really bothers you, you could probably slip a small piece of paper under the track at that spot to support the ballast while the glue dries. You might also consider drilling your holes in 2 stages with a smaller hole at the track side and a larger hole underneath if you find you need the clearance. If you use Tortoise stall motors, you should definitely plan to buy the heavier piano wire than what comes with the motors because of the fairly extreme thickness of your foam and support plywood.

Mark


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Nice thing about SwitchMaster is that you can do the install after the track is down. The kits come with a brass tube and a length of piano wire. After the turnout is mounted you drill I think an 1/8 in hole about 2 ties down from the tiebar and put a little glue on the brass tube and push it in the hole. That it for drilling.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I’m certainly not opposed to a 3/8” hole. If I did drill a 3/8” hole I’d be inline with the SwitchWright spec and Mark uses Torties with at least a 3/8” hole. The 3/8” gives me a little wiggle room. If I decided on the SwitchMaster the 3/8” hole just wouldn’t be used. 

Will twin coils and solenoids work with a 3/8” hole? I guess I’m asking: do twin coils and solenoids REQUIRE smaller holes? It doesn’t sound like the brass tube idea would work with a hole that size. 

I’m so close to laying track that I want to get this decision made then get started. I’m itching to run a train after all of this time planning ……….


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

You don't need a large hole at all. An eighth in in diameter is all you need. Just big enough for the brass tube. Here is the town I installed the twin coil switch machines in. This part of the layout is probably 30 years old. There were no fancy slow motion machines back then. Didn't use foam for layouts either. 

The town is on half inch plywood. 










Here is a close up of the brass tubing with the control rod coming from the bell crank from the twin coil machine, through the brass tubing and connected to the throw bar on the turnout. 










This is a crappy photo of the control panel. The brass screw mounted on the face plate are connected to the contacts on the twin coil machines. The probe is the hot lead. All I have to do is to touch it to the corresponding point location and the points are moved. 










We didn't have a lot of what is available today back then. It still works so why try to fix it.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Switch machine linkage*











View attachment Introductory letter for $5 switch machine.pdf


View attachment Assembly instructions for $5 switch machine..pdf
[/ATTACH]/ATTACH]


grpaine said:


> I’m a day or two away from laying my first piece of track. I just need to practice my soldering skills before I dive in. It will be quite a while before I decide which turnouts will have motors and what type of motors I’ll use. In the meantime, I want to plan ahead and drill the hole for the piano wire before installing each turnout. The size of the hole varies by type as indicated below.
> 
> Twin coil – unknown
> Stall motors (Tortie) – 1/4”
> ...


grpaine;

Whether you will need any hole under the turnout's throwbar, and what size hole, will depend on which switch machine you use. You have already researched this a bit, and know the size for some switch machines. However, with the 2-1/2" or thicker base, I'd recommend going with the same type of linkage Chet shows in his posted photo. That wire crank inside a tube system works with any sub-roadbed/foam thickness, since you cut it to size for each installation. It also has the advantage of working well with many different switch machines. The biggest advantage is the one Chet told you about, no big hole under the turnout is needed. That's important, In my opinion, because it's not always easy to predict the exact location where the big hole needs to be. With the system Chet recommended, that's not even an issue, because you drill each 1/8" hole right where it's needed, from the top, AFTER the turnout is in place. 

regards;

Traction Fan


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I’m using Peco turnouts, which already have a hole in the middle of the throwbar, between the 2 rails. 

All along I imagined the switch motor wire going straight up from the bottom into the existing throwbar hole, like they show in the Tortie illustrations. The N scale layout I built years ago used the same style Peco turnouts and if I remember right the Peco twin coil motors just attached to the bottom of the turnout, moving side to side similar to the Tortie but not pivoting around a fulcrum. 

The first time that I’d seen a motor wire coming up a ways from the hole and bent over above the ties then bent again into the hole, from above, was a day or two ago when I looked at the SwitchMaster. When Chet first mentioned a brass tube I couldn’t imagine how it would move the throwbar from side to side. The pictures explained that, thanks. (The hot probe I understood from the get go). 

Underneath the layout, that crank wire must bend back parallel to the section above the ties?. How would a twin coil or tortie connect to the crank? I don’t have enough experience to picture that. 

Drilling a 1/8” hole after the turnout is installed would be excellent.


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

The way I installed the control wire was to first install the brass tube and then put the control wire through the tubing. Bend the control wire to fit into the throw bar at the points. The next step is to go under the layout and to bend the other end of the control wire to fit into the bell crank on the twin coil machine. The last step was to mount the switch machine to the under side of the layout. I usually would put one screw to the bottom of the layout and then adjust the twin coil maching to the proper position and then install the second screw for permanent mounting. 

This is old school, but it does work. There are a lot of switch machines available. I like the manual ones available from Humpyard Purveyance. 

http://humpyard.com/

Click on the instructions and additional photos on the web page. I have also used choke/throttle cables for manual control, but these units are really slick and less expensive than electrically controlled units. .


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I read thru all of the SwitchMaster literature and I can now visualize how the bell crank thru copper tubing would move the throwbar. I need to study the other types in more detail so I understand 100% of how they would mount and operate.

But let me ask you guys this. The outside distance between the 2 ties on either side of the throwbar is .525. Why not drill the 3/8” (.375) hole now under the throwbar in case I go with a Tortie type connection? The 2 ties and throwbar will cover all of the hole except a small space that allows the throwbar to slide back and forth between those 2 ties. I can’t imagine ballasting that section because the gap is tiny. Is there some way I can go wrong with that approach?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I don't see and reason why not. If you don't use it you could easily plug it up from the bottom.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The solutions shown by Chet and Traction Fan show the "S hook" concept I was talking about.

It's really just a matter of translating the motion of the switch machine, whatever it is, through a vertical distance to a corresponding lever on the top side.

When these manufacturers are talking about a hole of "x" size, they're referring to a hole UNDER THE THROWBAR necessary to move the points with the motion of the switch machine's wire only.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

grpaine said:


> I read thru all of the SwitchMaster literature and I can now visualize how the bell crank thru copper tubing would move the throwbar. I need to study the other types in more detail so I understand 100% of how they would mount and operate.
> 
> But let me ask you guys this. The outside distance between the 2 ties on either side of the throwbar is .525. Why not drill the 3/8” (.375) hole now under the throwbar in case I go with a Tortie type connection? The 2 ties and throwbar will cover all of the hole except a small space that allows the throwbar to slide back and forth between those 2 ties. I can’t imagine ballasting that section because the gap is tiny. Is there some way I can go wrong with that approach?


That's exactly what I would do. There really isn't any reason to plug it if you don't use it either. It will never show.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

I’ve looked at the SwitchMaster options. Lots of nice parts but you have to roll your own. I’ve studied the Tam Valley servo options. Really nice stuff in a plug and play format. 

I’m not finding much information about twin coils. I see many many of you use them but I’m not finding any mounting illustrations. Where can I find out more about mounting twin coil motors, specifically under the plywood, for use with a bell crank wire to the top of the track? I just can’t picture it and I’m not finding anything online. I don’t want to rule them out because I can’t figure out how to mount them.

Does anyone manufacture twin coil ‘systems’ in a plug and play format? i.e. motor, mounting bracket (for bell crank), fascia control (switch & LED’s), DCC, accessory control.


What brands of twin coil machines do most folks buy?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Here's a picture of one of my switchmasters







In the orange circle you can see the brass tube coming up thru the wood and foam. The yellow line label torsion just shows that the vertical part of the piano wire is in torsion. The green arrow points to the piano wire - now bent at 90 degrees and going thru the wire connected to the stall motor. The white part shows the wire that is connected to a micro switch that I use to power the frog. The metal screw clamp just holds a plastic beam to the stall motor that has the micro switch on it. The axis of the stall motor shaft is in line with the torsion part of the piano wire that then rotates to move the throw bar. its a little difficult to see the lever arm that connects to the throw bar but its all in the orange circle. The motor is screwed under the track via the white spacers.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Twin coil info*



grpaine said:


> I’ve looked at the SwitchMaster options. Lots of nice parts but you have to roll your own. I’ve studied the Tam Valley servo options. Really nice stuff in a plug and play format.
> 
> I’m not finding much information about twin coils. I see many many of you use them but I’m not finding any mounting illustrations. Where can I find out more about mounting twin coil motors, specifically under the plywood, for use with a bell crank wire to the top of the track? I just can’t picture it and I’m not finding anything online. I don’t want to rule them out because I can’t figure out how to mount them.
> 
> ...


 grpaine;

For many modelers, the D.C. stall motor has largely replaced twin coil machines. The only twin coil machines in widespread use today are Atlas, and Peco. Of these two I guess you could consider the Atlas above table, machine that's included with their electric, remote control, turnouts; as "plug and play" since all you have to do is attach the wires to the control button and the button to a power pack. The Peco isn't much more complicated. It "plugs" (mechanically) directly into the bottom of the turnout. Three wires need to be strung from the twin coil machine back to a control panel button. The Peco machine requires a large, rectangular hole be cut under the throwbar area. 
A good idea for any twin coil machine is to use a capacitive discharge system to power the coils. This makes it nearly impossible to burn out a coil. (an all-too-likely event if you don't use a capacitive system!)
It's possible, indeed it was once common. to connect a twin coil machine mounted below the table, through a "wire-inside-a-tube linkage; up to the turnout. In prehistoric model railroading times a guy named Earl Eishelman (sp?) once offered linkage kits for this purpose. I doubt they are still available today.
I have used the same Hankscraft (the original manufacturer of the motors sold by Switch-master) motor, linkage Micro-switch, setup shown in Lemonhawk's posted photo (above). It works very well. 

Good luck with whatever system you choose;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Peco machine or Tortoise ?*



grpaine said:


> I’m using Peco turnouts, which already have a hole in the middle of the throwbar, between the 2 rails.
> 
> All along I imagined the switch motor wire going straight up from the bottom into the existing throwbar hole, like they show in the Tortie illustrations. The N scale layout I built years ago used the same style Peco turnouts and if I remember right the Peco twin coil motors just attached to the bottom of the turnout, moving side to side similar to the Tortie but not pivoting around a fulcrum.
> 
> ...


 grpaine;

Since you are using Peco turnouts, the easy way would be to use Peco's twin coil machine snapped into the bottom of the turnout. 
However, if you want to do the "1/8" hole afterward" thing, you can attach a Tortoise, or other machine, through the tube linkage. Directions and photos of this are in the links to PDF documents I sent you concerning my "$5 switch machine." It mimics the more expensive Tortoise, and the second version is mounted on its side to operate a linkage. The same set up would work with a Tortoise machine. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> Here's a picture of one of my switchmasters.
> In the orange circle you can see the brass tube coming up thru the wood and foam. The yellow line label torsion just shows that the vertical part of the piano wire is in torsion. The green arrow points to the piano wire - now bent at 90 degrees and going thru the wire connected to the stall motor. The white part shows the wire that is connected to a micro switch that I use to power the frog. The metal screw clamp just holds a plastic beam to the stall motor that has the micro switch on it. The axis of the stall motor shaft is in line with the torsion part of the piano wire that then rotates to move the throw bar. its a little difficult to see the lever arm that connects to the throw bar but its all in the orange circle. The motor is screwed under the track via the white spacers.


Thanks for the picture of your installed SwitchMaster. Builders In Scale (SwitchMaster), TamValley (Micro Singlet, SwitchWright, Octo) and Circuitron (Tortoise, Smail) all have excellent documentation online.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

traction fan said:


> grpaine;
> 
> For many modelers, the D.C. stall motor has largely replaced twin coil machines. The only twin coil machines in widespread use today are Atlas, and Peco. Of these two I guess you could consider the Atlas above table, machine that's included with their electric, remote control, turnouts; as "plug and play" since all you have to do is attach the wires to the control button and the button to a power pack. The Peco isn't much more complicated. It "plugs" (mechanically) directly into the bottom of the turnout. Three wires need to be strung from the twin coil machine back to a control panel button. The Peco machine requires a large, rectangular hole be cut under the throwbar area.
> A good idea for any twin coil machine is to use a capacitive discharge system to power the coils. This makes it nearly impossible to burn out a coil. (an all-too-likely event if you don't use a capacitive system!)
> ...


I've seen reference to Earl's name while doing my research. The bell crank looks easy to make, especially since piano wire is readily available. And the more I think about it, I believe the bell crank would be much stronger and more reliable than a straight wire of that length.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

traction fan said:


> grpaine;
> 
> Since you are using Peco turnouts, the easy way would be to use Peco's twin coil machine snapped into the bottom of the turnout.
> However, if you want to do the "1/8" hole afterward" thing, you can attach a Tortoise, or other machine, through the tube linkage. Directions and photos of this are in the links to PDF documents I sent you concerning my "$5 switch machine." It mimics the more expensive Tortoise, and the second version is mounted on its side to operate a linkage. The same set up would work with a Tortoise machine.
> ...


I don't think using the Peco twin coil machines, mounted to the bottom of the turnout, is a valid option. I'd have to cut that rectangular hole into the top of the foam and the twin coil would be trapped under the turnout. I want something that is easily accessed from underneath. 

I'm leaning toward the 1/8" hole with tubing and a bell crank. 

Tortoise has a horizontal mounting bracket (RTM) but it adds 50% to the cost of the Tortie and looks restrictive in where it can be installed. Tortie's documentation says that when mounted vertical (normal position) with "real thick subroadbed of 2 - 4"" there might be problems using the internal relay to power frogs (which I'm not doing) and the slow motion characteristic of the Tortie disappear. It begins to move the points, stalls out then quickly moves to the other rail. Whether it moves fast or slow doesn't bother me but the slow motion is one of their main selling points and one reason they can charge as much as they do.

At this point the TamValley products look most interesting to me because of the plug and play feature, followed by the SwitchMaster. Considering the hundreds of RxR projects I have ahead of me the ability to simply plug a couple of components together is very appealing.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Admitting to a personal bias in favor of the TVD products, I don't think you can go wrong going that route.

One other factor is product support. If I ever have an issue with a TVD produce, an email to them gets a personal response from the owner, usually withing 24 hours. He's very sharp and can solve most problems just from a detailed description. He once deduced thst I had a bad power supply (bouht from Amazon, not TVD) just from thr behavior of the machines. And because I hate wiring, the plug and play feature is very attractive to me.

The RC cables (Futaba style) to connect everything are readily and cheaply available on eBay and Amazon.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Good choices*



grpaine said:


> I don't think using the Peco twin coil machines, mounted to the bottom of the turnout, is a valid option. I'd have to cut that rectangular hole into the top of the foam and the twin coil would be trapped under the turnout. I want something that is easily accessed from underneath.
> 
> I'm leaning toward the 1/8" hole with tubing and a bell crank.
> 
> ...


grpaine;

You certainly have done some thorough research on this subject; and it sounds like you have come to a decision. Using the Tam Valley servos, and a music wire crank linkage, should work well with any depth of foam, roadbed, Etc. By the way, if you don't like the appearance of that wire crank between the ties, it can be smaller, and outside the rails. The wire can even be hidden under a switch stand, (non-working detail part) 
In this setup, the wire is poked through the throwbar, outside the rails, and between the "head blocks", (the two extra-long ties that a prototype switch stand is mounted on.) I think Chet's photo shows a similar arrangement, but with the wire linkage still out in the open. I use 1/16" brass tube, and smaller wire, located under the switch stand. It works well, and doesn't show much. 
In any case, good luck and please post a photo of your completed installation.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

traction fan said:


> grpaine;
> 
> You certainly have done some thorough research on this subject; and it sounds like you have come to a decision. Using the Tam Valley servos, and a music wire crank linkage, should work well with any depth of foam, roadbed, Etc. By the way, if you don't like the appearance of that wire crank between the ties, it can be smaller, and outside the rails. The wire can even be hidden under a switch stand, (non-working detail part)
> In this setup, the wire is poked through the throwbar, outside the rails, and between the "head blocks", (the two extra-long ties that a prototype switch stand is mounted on.) I think Chet's photo shows this arrangement. I use 1/16" brass tube, and smaller wire, located there. It works well, and doesn't show all that much.
> ...


Yes, I thought I had a direction in mind but then I received this reply from the TamValley owner: "I have the crank method on the website but it is the least satisfactory way to run turnouts - the crank shows on top of the layout and it is hard to adjust and keep it adjusted". I'm waiting for clarification on exactly what "it is hard to adjust and keep it adjusted" means. 

I started another thread, Foam Subroadbed and Automated Switch Machines, to see what other foam users are using. This is turning into a nightmare.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

DonR said:


> If you are going to use Peco turnouts the easy thing to
> do is select the PL10 twin coil turnout motor that
> attaches directly to the bottom of the turnout and needs
> no extension. Since you have 2 inches of foam it would
> ...


_DonR posted this reply in my other, new thread asking foam users what they use for switch machines. I'd like to redirect his reply over to this thread because it is a better fit. I hope that is cool._

Thanks, Don. I'm hoping to make the switch machines accessible. It sounds like you have had good luck with yours but I suspect the way things are manufactured these days that sooner or later at least one of my switch motors will have an issue and it would be nice to have access to them. After pondering your suggestion for awhile I guess if I were to drill the hole for the electrical wires straight down from the throwbar hole, if I had a failure, I could drill a large (1.75 - 2") hole up thru that electrical wiring hole, from the bottom, until I reached the switch motor.

Otherwise I'd have to cut the turnout out to access the switch motor. Is that a big deal? I remember reading about a guy who relied on the adjacent tracks to hold his turnouts in place. I don't know if that is a good idea or not but I was thinking of soldering by turnouts to the adjacent tracks, especially the diverging route.

I downloaded the current PL10 instructions and they did not mention ballasting. However I found several posts where they used card or photo stock between the throwbar and switch motor to hold the ballast until it dried.

I thought this was supposed to be fun?


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

If I were to eliminate 1.5" of thickness from the bottom (plywood and 1 layer of foam) leaving 1.5" (1 layer of foam, cork roadbed, throwbar), would I be alright for mounting Torties and servos in their conventional form? A servo might be able to be double sided foam taped to the foam but I'd like something more stable. I'm thinking about cutting a rectangle in the plywood and lower layer of foam the size of a 2 gang old work shallow electrical box. The box would screw into the plywood and give me a firm, raised platform (reduced thickness) for a motor like a Tortie or servo.

What do you guys think about that approach?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The likelyhood of any problem with the twin coil
motors, if tested before installation, is not great.

I have 20 or so Peco Insulfrogs with attached
PL10s in operation for several years. I have had
no problems.

The most peril for any twin coil motor is burn
out due to too long a push of the panel button.

Anyone with twin coil motors should use a CDU (Capacitor
Discharge Unit). It provides the correct burst of
energy and dies until the button is released. This
prevents burnout of the solenoid coils.

I have noticed that it is more difficult to get a good
solid solder to the 3 tabs on the PL10s. By all means
use a pigtail to your under table circuit. Test your
soldering for physical and electrical qualities before
installing on layout.

Don


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

Din - The hot probe that I use for the twin coil motors eliminates the problem of burning out the motors. The switch machines in this part of the layout have been in use for over 30 years. Quite reliable.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

grpaine said:


> If I were to eliminate 1.5" of thickness from the bottom (plywood and 1 layer of foam) leaving 1.5" (1 layer of foam, cork roadbed, throwbar), would I be alright for mounting Torties and servos in their conventional form? A servo might be able to be double sided foam taped to the foam but I'd like something more stable. I'm thinking about cutting a rectangle in the plywood and lower layer of foam the size of a 2 gang old work shallow electrical box. The box would screw into the plywood and give me a firm, raised platform (reduced thickness) for a motor like a Tortie or servo.
> 
> What do you guys think about that approach?


I responded in your other thread. TVD servos will definitely work in that situation. Stability is in your mind there. Tape it to a flat (not carved) piece of extruded foam insulating board with foam tape, and it's not going ANYWHERE. The force required to throw the points is really minimal. The TVD servos are aligned after installation to provide just enough force to hold the points against the stock rails. If it's really going to bother you, you could just mount a thin strip of styrene between the foam layers, but it's not necessary.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> I responded in your other thread. TVD servos will definitely work in that situation. Stability is in your mind there. Tape it to a flat (not carved) piece of extruded foam insulating board with foam tape, and it's not going ANYWHERE. The force required to throw the points is really minimal. The TVD servos are aligned after installation to provide just enough force to hold the points against the stock rails. If it's really going to bother you, you could just mount a thin strip of styrene between the foam layers, but it's not necessary.


Yes, I saw your post and was still deciding to reply over there or here. I was hoping to get some folks to say they have x inches of foam, here's what they did and whether it works or not. Not much activity yet.

But it all might be a moot point. The TVD guy got back to me again and after hearing that the foam is mounted on a firm plywood base says the servos will work up to 3" but I might need a slightly larger hole; the 3/8" that we've talked about. He also wants me to leave the springs in the turnouts. He didn't say why but I figure the servo is strong enough to overcome the spring but then the spring will keep the points against the rails. It will snap but I think I prefer that. I'm going to order a couple to see how well I like them. 

CTValleyRR, thanks for bringing these TVD products to my attention. I appreciate it and am looking forward to working with them.

And thanks to the rest of you who contributed. I'm much more knowledgeable on switch motors now.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Adjusting and keeping it adjusted?*



grpaine said:


> Yes, I thought I had a direction in mind but then I received this reply from the TamValley owner: "I have the crank method on the website but it is the least satisfactory way to run turnouts - the crank shows on top of the layout and it is hard to adjust and keep it adjusted". I'm waiting for clarification on exactly what "it is hard to adjust and keep it adjusted" means.
> 
> I started another thread, Foam Subroadbed and Automated Switch Machines, to see what other foam users are using. This is turning into a nightmare.


grpaine;

I don't understand what the Tam Valley guy means, but then I have used stall motors, and manual linkages, but not servos. I never had any adjustment issues with a wire crank operated turnout except at initial installation, and not always even then. There is no big problem with adjusting this type of linkage; in fact it can usually be done in minutes, and from the turnout end. (on top of the layout; no crawling under usually) 
Of course there could easily be something about the servos that causes different results than motors. I wouldn't know. CTValley is our resident expert on Tam Valley servos. He uses them and has had excellent results.
A potential problem with the "waving wire" system used in a normal, vertically mounted, Tortoise installation is hitting the sides of the hole, when it goes through thick foam. Conversely the wire crank in a tube method can be used with very thick foam by just making a longer tube, and crank wire. 
Sorry to hear you're having a nightmarish time with switch machines! 
All of of the machines/methods recommended in this thread work. Some have been used successfully for decades. The only thing I think might even be a problem, and that only with one type of linkage, (waving wire) is the thick foam. I'll leave discussion of that issue to the folks who use Tortoise machines, and thick foam. Since graduating from Atlas table top twin-coil machines (Ugh! :thumbsdown I have always used the crank in a tube system, and it has worked very well, without adjustment after installation.

Hang in there, you'll get it figured out.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Alternate mounting for Peco twin-coil machines*



grpaine said:


> _DonR posted this reply in my other, new thread asking foam users what they use for switch machines. I'd like to redirect his reply over to this thread because it is a better fit. I hope that is cool._
> 
> Thanks, Don. I'm hoping to make the switch machines accessible. It sounds like you have had good luck with yours but I suspect the way things are manufactured these days that sooner or later at least one of my switch motors will have an issue and it would be nice to have access to them. After pondering your suggestion for awhile I guess if I were to drill the hole for the electrical wires straight down from the throwbar hole, if I had a failure, I could drill a large (1.75 - 2") hole up thru that electrical wiring hole, from the bottom, until I reached the switch motor.
> 
> ...


grpaine;

I agree with you that turnout machines (and turnouts themselves) can break down, and therefore should be accessible. 
Two suggestions on this idea.
First don't solder the rail joiners, permanently glue down, or otherwise make it difficult/impossible to remove the turnout from the layout. A few dabs of latex caulk under the turnout's ties will hold it in place, but can be released by sliding a putty knife under the turnout. If the turnout is mounted on a flat piece of thin wood, or plastic, then the turnout and ballast can be removed as a unit if major maintenance is needed. I build my turnouts on a piece of 1/8" Luan plywood, and screw the wood roadbed down. If you can remove the turnout then you would have access to the Peco twin-coil machine attached to the bottom of it.
Second if, for some reason, you decide to fasten your turnouts semi-permanently in place (not a great idea, but your choice of course) Then the twin-coil machines can be dug into the foam beside their turnouts, instead of beneath them. A short, simple, wire link from the twin-coil machine's moving pin, to the outer end of the throwbar will work the points. The barely submerged machine can be covered with something easy to remove, a small piece of foam, structure, bush, whatever. With this setup, you can repair/replace a machine without pulling up the turnout.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

grpaine said:


> Yes, I saw your post and was still deciding to reply over there or here. I was hoping to get some folks to say they have x inches of foam, here's what they did and whether it works or not. Not much activity yet.
> 
> But it all might be a moot point. The TVD guy got back to me again and after hearing that the foam is mounted on a firm plywood base says the servos will work up to 3" but I might need a slightly larger hole; the 3/8" that we've talked about. He also wants me to leave the springs in the turnouts. He didn't say why but I figure the servo is strong enough to overcome the spring but then the spring will keep the points against the rails. It will snap but I think I prefer that. I'm going to order a couple to see how well I like them.
> 
> ...


So, in a normal installation, the piano wire (0.032"?) is rigid but springy. It can and will throw the points, even with a spring, and the springiness (for lack of a better term) is strong enough to hold the points against the stock rail without a spring in the turnout, IF IT IS FREE TO MOVE. In other words, the wire needs to be able to travel past the spot at which the points stop moving to provide the necessary force to hold the points in place. If the wire is resting on the side of the hole, then it might not have enough tension to reliably hold the points, even though it could move them. In this case, having a spring in the turnout would be an advantage. Basically, the wire should be under tension (slightly bowed) when the turnout points are fully thrown.

I have used the TVD servos at the limit of the supplied wire (about 3"), without issues, although I admit that I move the drill around a bit to clean up the edges of the hole, which may result in a slightly wider hole than 3/8". You can also just cut a small gash in the foam to allow the top of the wire to travel a little further.

Me personally, I don't want the points to snap, so I wouldn't want to leave the spring in place. I'm actually using Walthers Shinohara turnouts, which don't have a spring anyway.

One other technique I have found helpful. Rather than "fishing" for the hole in the throwbar, get a long piece of brass tubing with the same internal diameter as the turnout wire. Drill out the throwbar hole just enough to accommodate this tube (if your turnouts of choice have a throwbar that is too thin, glue a collar of metal or styrene around the hole before drilling). You can then feed the tube down through the throwbar (a piece of tape in a T across the top will keep it from dropping all the way through). Slip the servo / switch machine wire into the brass tube, make sure it is close to vertical, and fasten down your switch machine. Pull out the tube, and your wire is right in the throwbar hole (the extra slop caused by enlarging the hole won't matter). Trim off the excess length (for hardened steel wire, I like a rotary tool).

And just to reiterate my point about TVD customer service, how many other companies do you know that will give you such personalized assistance?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Servos are not stall motors, they just don't quit, they will move to whatever you set them up for, so the springiness of the piano wire is important to keep the servo from killing itself. Also I think the servos need to be deactivated once moved to a new position, that why the recommendation is to keep the springs. I've also tried proto87 stores stall motor that operates a switch stand besides throwing the tie bar. Nice idea but as with other stall motors, they are a pain to align. I'll stick with switchmasters, their simple to install. The other solution that looked easy was the peco twincoils that mount to the bottom of the turnout. I can see that digging a big hole in the foam and covering it later would be about the most simple solution.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Lemonhawk said:


> Servos are not stall motors, they just don't quit, they will move to whatever you set them up for, so the springiness of the piano wire is important to keep the servo from killing itself. Also I think the servos need to be deactivated once moved to a new position, that why the recommendation is to keep the springs. I've also tried proto87 stores stall motor that operates a switch stand besides throwing the tie bar. Nice idea but as with other stall motors, they are a pain to align. I'll stick with switchmasters, their simple to install. The other solution that looked easy was the peco twincoils that mount to the bottom of the turnout. I can see that digging a big hole in the foam and covering it later would be about the most simple solution.


Servos drive to one position and quit. As part of the installation, you have to tell them where to do that (which can be done manually or with a small programming device that TVD sells for their servos). Basically, you want the wire aligned with the outside of the rail, which provides enough pressure (from the springiness of the wire) to hold the points in position without the need for a spring in the turnout itself.

It sounds much more complicated than it is. Mounting any switch machine, of any type, underneath 3-ish inches of foam, is a little tricky. You could mount a servo directly under the turnout under a small piece of wood or styrene if you so chose. But it's nice to have the option to mount it where you want it.


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