# I HAD TO (re)MOVE A MOUNTAIN.



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Years ago, when I built my layout, I made all the curves on one loop at least O72, but over the years, I tightened them up for a variety of reasons. Early this year, I picked up two aluminum Lionel 751 M10000s (the same train my grandfather had in the 30s). The M10000 requires O72 curves. I thought I had to widen one curve on the layout that was less than O72, but I discovered that four of the five curves had to be modified. I did the first one in June. I only had room to make it 68.5” diameter, but the M10000 handles that diameter. I started the rest a few weeks ago after the weather got a bit cooler. The next two curves were relatively easy. I used Ross and Gargraves O72 sectional track. I’m now working on the last one.

When I built the layout, I broke a lot of rules (which I didn’t know about at the time) such as excessive reach and putting a mountain over the track. The mountain was made from wire mesh fencing stuffed with newspaper and covered with plaster cloth. Here’s what it looked like until a few days ago.

























I did leave an access hole in case of a derailment, but there is no way I was going to widen that last curve without removing the mountain.









Here are a few shots during the rip out process. The mountain has been there for almost 30 years…actually not too long in geological time.
















And this is what it looks like now. Since the track will be covered by the new mountain, I used some 72” diameter O27 K-Line tinplate track that I’ve had sitting in a box forever. Now the M10000’s can do the entire loop. Maybe I should get an MTH Pioneer Zephyr.










I’m going to extend the upper loop under the mountain using Ross O36 and Gargraves O32 curves. I need to figure out a way to make the upper loop semi portable. The new mountain will be made of rigid foam and will be removable for the most part. Not totally sure what I will do with the part to the right of the tracks. I’ll probably make that part of the mountain again, but I’m toying with the idea of making some diagonal shelves. Any ideas?

I’ll post more as progress continues.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I like the date on the newspaper, pretty cool trip back in time!


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2015)

Always messy to remove a mountain. But it is a good change! Please keep us posted with your progress.

It was so good to meet you this past week at the York Meet.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Messy, but it has to be done. Thanks for sharing. And a good job.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

It is pretty impressive that your layout has been up for 30 years! We certainly do not see that very often. You have some nice details like your 30 hear old mountain, cute swing set and that nice trestle. Good job!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks guys.

Here's a shot yesterday of a little more rip out.


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

That's a interesting attic layout. Can we see more of it?


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

It is a bit of a job, but you will be happy when you are done that you can run the M10000. Do you have any photos of it posted so we can see the culprit that made this operation necessary.

Yes, the newspaper shows it has been quite a while since you built the mountain. So, I think it is time for a change anyway. Why not! :thumbsup:

Ditto on Ricky's request to see more of the layout. I find attic layouts to be very imaginative in getting the most of the space available.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Ricky/Mark,

Been busy today cleaning rain gutters, cutting the grass and working on the layout. You got me to looking for pictures of the layout and now I'm thinking about doing a thread on it. But that will have to wait at least till the track work is done. Meanwhile here are a few recent shots.

























































Here is my grandfather's M10000 and one of my M10000s 80 years later.

















Bob


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Nice layout Bob. I see we share a love for North East Road Names. When the demolition/construction is completed, you will be glad you made the change.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Thank you for all the photos! You have done quite a great job building an interesting layout in the attic! What is the height at the peak?

My attic is about 4 feet high at the peak. I have to crawl around up there storing things for my wife. I recall seeing layouts in magazines at about my attic's height, and the builder had to crawl around to build, but operated the trains while standing on a ladder at the entrance. I hope you have more height.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If we weren't looking seriously at moving, I'd have probably grabbed the attic for my trains, the peak is over 10 feet, tons of room for a good sized layout. The biggest issue would be heating and cooling...


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

You've got a nice layout! Thanks for sharing!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The peak is about seven feet. I boxed the peak in for ventilation so the "ceiling" is about 5'8". I can stand up, but no one can be much taller than me in the train room. The platform is around 20' X 20'. Heating and cooling is certainly an issue. I have a 15" gable fan that helps to lower the temperature, but in mid summer, it gets plenty hot. That's why I waited till fall to do this work. In the winter, a portable space heater will usually make it comfortable.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

It's great you can stand up, and yes I would expect summer heat to be an issue. Thank you! Great job!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If we weren't looking seriously at moving, I'd have probably grabbed the attic for my trains, the peak is over 10 feet, tons of room for a good sized layout. The biggest issue would be heating and cooling...


The attic climate control is manageable is, and what can't be managed is tolerable. But the move - that is more serious in my mind. 

My trainroom is in the attic and like you I had lots of vertical space. I lowered the ceiling a foot and I heavily insulated it and the trainroom walls, installed an attic fan above the ceiling to pull hot air out of the gap around the trainroom and away from the trainroom walls, and ran extra AC ducts from my second floor AC/heat unit to the trainroom. I ended up having to install a window unit and auxillary heater in my workshop and even with them, on 100+ deg days the temperature gets to 80 deg, and when its 20 outside, its around 60 in my trainroom. But I can live with that.

A potential move, to me, is more serious. There is no way I could move my layout now. I thought about this and decided long ago it, and I, am staying where I am. I had a contractor give me an estimate on removing it all and returning the trainroom to a simple finished attic, and left that in my will so that when my kids inherit the house they can have it cleaned up to sell. 

Until then, I seat a little on really hot days, and wear an extra sweater on cold winter days. No big deal.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I wish I were staying in this house and could proceed, but that's life.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Yesterday, I finished mountain rip out and started upper level track mods. Waiting for Gargraves O32 track which should be here Saturday. Today, I lifted half the yard area track and put down ballast mat (rolled roofing).


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

*Track work is finally done.*

Track work is finally done (for now). When I build the new trestle, I’ll replace three rail track with 5 rail track there. It took longer than I thought it would. The O27 to GG track juncture had a bump so I removed the O27 and put GG track back in. In addition to widening that last curve and running the upper level under the future mountain, I redid half the yard area. I replaced a number of old Gargraves switches and NJI switch machines with new Gargraves/Ross switches and DZ 1000s. I also reused three old Gargraves switches. I forgot that the old GG switches have to be modified to use DZ1000s. They would have been easier to modify before I installed them. I’m having some problems with a few new DZ1000s which is unusual. I’ll do a search here and probably ask Dennis for help. It’s been a week without running trains. Glad that’s over


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Just curious, why go with the DZ1000 over the NJI switch machines?


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Just curious, why go with the DZ1000 over the NJI switch machines?


The DZ1000s look a lot better when installed above the platform. The NJIs can be installed below the platform (which is what I usually did in the past if I couldn’t hide them), but it’s a real chore especially with my low platform height and my ageing body. Since I’m replacing some old GG switches with the new style and they come with DZ1000s, installation is relatively easy. The NJIs have actually served quite well for a number of years, but lately some of them have not fired reliably.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Interesting, we are actually replacing Atlas switch machines with the NJI ones, I find them much more reliable.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Interesting, we are actually replacing Atlas switch machines with the NJI ones, I find them much more reliable.


Reliable? I have to agree with that. Some of them have been on the platform for 30 years. I have 18 of them that I removed. Do you want them?


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

T track looks very nice. Yes, I'm glad you can run trains again too.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lehigh74 said:


> Reliable? I have to agree with that. Some of them have been on the platform for 30 years. I have 18 of them that I removed. Do you want them?


Don't toss them, we're using them on our modular layout, and we still have empty spots!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Don't toss them, we're using them on our modular layout, and we still have empty spots!


I'll bring them up to the store and tell Bill I'd like to return them. Should get a laugh.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you have an 18 year old receipt, that would even be funnier!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Believe it or not, I do. Not all from Henning's though. Some are from Estes/Norristown Hobbies.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

By the way, Dennis gave me a few suggestions yesterday on the DZ1000s. He suggested operation at 14VAC and said to make sure the motor was seated and the pinion gear was firmly attached. I hadn’t told him what voltage I was using, but he must have known from the symptoms I described that it was too high. Before this latest change, I had been operating DZs at 20VAC in parallel with some NJIs. I guess the NJIs sucked up enough power that the DZs weren’t bothered. On two of them, the pinion had come off the shaft. On another, the micro switch actuating rod had come out of position. All easily fixed. Maybe some day I’ll learn to read the instructions and stop breaking things


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The NJI's are very tolerant of most any voltage, I haven't used the DZ1000 switch machines, no experience base.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

*A Little Progress…Very Little*

I’ve been at this for two months and it seems like it is taking forever. I’ve got the tunnel portals in place and built most of the new trestle. Now I’m slowly building the mountain. I’m making it so that the mountain can be removed in sections (for access). Using molded hydrocal rocks to build the mountain is very tedious. For a few spots, I shaped and painted rigid foam and it doesn’t look too much different from the molded rocks unless you get real close. The area next to the waterfall will be a focal point so I think I’ll continue to use the hydrocal rocks there. Then I’ll use shaped and painted rigid foam with drybrush white for most of the mountain that isn’t too close to spectators. (i.e. I’ll use Lee’s 3 foot rule). Hopefully things will move a little quicker then.


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

Looking good!


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2015)

Nice thing about our hobby, you can work on a project as time permits. What you have accomplished looks really good.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lookin' good, keep plugging away and you'll have it done before you know it.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Wow, what a great thread. Great layout! Thanks for sharing!


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

You are doing a great job! I really like the trestle and the track switches OUTSIDE the tunnels where you have easy access in case of derailment or repair. Thanks for keeping us up to date as you have time!


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

*Leigh74 posted: I shaped and painted rigid foam and it doesn’t look too much different from the molded rocks unless you get real close. *

I understand your tedium about the length of time it takes to complete the project. In the middle it seems to go on forever. But, it doesn't!! Your work is progressing well and it will be super when you finish. 

In regard to foam. Scenic express makes a hot wire cutter. It is the trick to shaping foam. All of my recent hills and mountains have been made out of foam and I carved them with this hot wire cutter. A little practice and you get the trick real fast. You can also use a propane torch and heat up the end of an old steak knife. That works great also. The heat simply melts the foam, the knife or wire slide through and you can carve until you get the right touch.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Wood,

I probably should have bought a hot wire cutter years ago, but I'm too cheap. I just got a rope cutting tip for my Weller soldering gun and tried that. I didn't use it much, because I didn't like the result. I couldn't get the desired shape and it left a hard surface. I use a key hole saw, wood rasp and 60 grit sand paper to shape the stuff. Its super messy and the pink particles go everywhere and stick to everything. But I like the results and the process is a lot faster than using molded rocks.

Bob


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, Harry Henning uses the saw and rasp with a bent up bread knife to do his Styrofoam shaping, and it's a master at landscaping. As you say, it's super messy, the shopvac is always at the ready when he's making mountains!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Well if I do it the same way Harry does, then I'm in good company.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lehigh74 said:


> Well if I do it the same way Harry does, then I'm in good company.


That was my point.


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## Steamfan77 (Jan 28, 2011)

Glad to follow along. Nice work in a tough space. Keep up the good work.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

*READING, PINK MOUNTAIN AND NORTHERN RR*

It has been over a month since I lasted posted on this so I thought I would make another lack of progress report.

The basic shape of the mountain in pink is done. I made it in modules that can be removed in case of a derailment or if I ever want to make track changes again. I won’t need to remove the mountain top for derailments. Since it will stay in place, I made a platform for it using scrap lumber and furring strips.











I assembled foam pieces to fit against the sloped attic ceiling and the walls. Each module had to be assembled in a way that it would fit tightly against the adjoining module, be easily removable and would hopefully conceal the joint lines between modules.



































Next step is to put on my dust mask and shape the foam with a keyhole saw and wood rasp. One advantage of making it in modules is that I can do the shaping in my workshop and not get the static charged pink dust all over my track. I plan to use Sculptamold for much of the final shape.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2016)

Building a mountain is a big job. When we built the PE layout, I figured, piece of cake. A week later, not so much an easy job. I appreciate your hard work on this project.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

It is coming along nicely. Besides taking more time than expected, we end up having things come up we have to attend to that we hadn't counted on. Slow progress is better than no progress.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Brian – I remember reading your thread about building the PE layout. I skimmed over the part when you talked about how long it took you to build the mountain, but I can appreciate it now.

Mark – I don’t know about things coming up that I have to attend to, but I *AM* easily distracted. If MTF didn’t have so many interesting threads, I would probably be much further along.

The first mountain 30 years ago was fairly fast/easy with the newspaper and cast material, but I’m hoping the new one will look better. Tonight I started shaping the mountain top and that seems to be going pretty quickly which is encouraging.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Looking good, lotsa work. I have been rebuilding my layout, diifficult to keep the construction going once a loop is completed. Always seems that I have to run another consist instead of the rebuild.

Bill


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

*Getting There.*

I’ve got the basic scenic work done on most of the mountain. It was very cold here on and off for a few weeks so I took the modules down to the basement workshop to shape them with a keyhole saw, wood rasp and 60 grit sand paper. I then used Mold-a-Scene, Structolite and Sculptamold in various places to finish the shaping. Assembled them to check the fit. Then took them back down again for paint and grass/dirt/gravel/snow. Most of the seams between modules are not obvious. The ones that are obvious will be obscured with vegetation.

Next. Finish the mountain and the gorge.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

It is looking like a mountain again!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Coming along real nice, that's going to look great when all the scenery is in place.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Wow! Really nice work! What size curves go through the mountain?


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Lehigh, that is very nicely done. I like your use of structural stone embankment around the tunnel entrances and the divider at the top. Very nice product and it looks realistic as on many granite cuts I've seen. The snow bank on the backside is also another nice additions. My compliments on a job well done.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2016)

Nice work. Got to build another mountain soon.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks for the encouraging words guys.

Volpin - The lower level is Gargraves flex track. Outer loop is O72 (the reason I did this). The other two are probably around O54. The upper loop is Ross O36 leading into Gargraves O32.

Brian - You want to build another mountain? Really? Not me. I think this is my last one. Its taking me too long and I want it to be done.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

*DONE…well kind of*

I still need to:

Add cross braces to trestle
Add catwalk to trestle
Ballast track
Add cotton at base of waterfall
Add trees and vegetation
Add wrought iron fencing at edge of gorge and at station
Construct four buildings
Fix overpass to station
Fix rain downspout at station
Patch station wall
Weather the street
Paint lines on street
Put tar lines on street
Populate station, town and park
Detail interior of tunnel
Add signs
The sidewalk is way too white
Not sure I like the color of the water either
Etc.

I guess you’re never done.

Any suggestions for sidewalk color?

I’m also looking for a good method to put stripes on the street. It’s 80 grit sandpaper painted with Krylon primer. I tried putting 2 pieces of masking tape about 1/16” apart and used latex paint, but the tape does not stick well to sandpaper.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

You got that looking pretty good and with the details will look great. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The curved trestle is very nice.

I particularly like the "Big Box" stores in the last pic.
Lowes and Best Buy by any chance.  :laugh:

Magic


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

it's coming along great. Really looks good! I like your railroad bridge, and the mountain road. What is that red car on the mountain road, Sunbeam Tiger or Daimler SP250?


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

It's an SP250, Lee. I ordered some red ones after I saw the black Daimler police car on one of your threads. Beautiful model with more detail than you would expect in 1:43. I also have some green ones on order. Believe it or not, I know three people that owned Daimlers and plan on giving each of them a model.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I like all the detail and the tunnels, I look forward to the finished pictures, it's an impressive looking corner!


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Looking great so far! I'd hit those sidewalks with FS36440 Flat Gull Gray.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Volpin - That's probably the color I will go with, but the Behr equivalent. I need something that's lighter than the adjacent walls on the station steps. Ben Moore actually has one called sidewalk gray that looks close to the seagull gray. I was also thinking that sidewalks had a tinge of tan in them.


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