# Critique my corner layout?



## Brandon_5 (Oct 5, 2014)

Hi! 

21 year old here who is looking to get back into model railroading a bit more seriously than I ever did as a kid..but I am a little stuck on how to design a layout. I'm rather attached to HO scale by the way..lol.

I built a 5 x 8 layout when I was younger, and am familiar with the general building techniques. I have a pretty large space in my basement that allows me to be pretty flexible with track plans and layout dimensions..and right now I am playing with a 4 x 8, a 6 x 6 corner layout or even considering a "modular" type wall layout...but know much less about how to do/plan that.

I was wondering if you guys might be able to offer a bit of a critique of this corner layout I have drawn up? It's attached below. It is modified from a picture I found online of a 4 x 8 layout, but wanted to see what other layout options I had. I realize it's pretty tight, but none of the corners should exceed about a 17" radius..I'm okay with running smaller rolling stock...but i'm wondering if it's a little too much in a smaller space.

I've still been thinking of doing a wall type "modular" layout, but am having a bit more trouble visualizing track plans that are more than just a straight "point to point"..I quite like having the connected loops. Anyone know any good resources for this type of planning?

Thanks for your help in advance!
Brandon


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I think you'll get bored with it really quick (no offense meant.)

Do you just like to see the trains go round and round or do you want to "operate" some trains with picking up/dropping off cars, etc.

The model railroader magazine website has hundreds of track plans online. Try to figure out you'd like to use the layout and that will help you determine what kind of layout you really want.

If you've got the space, you can go loop to loop with what would appear to be a double-track mainline going through the layout and avoid any reversing loops.

Are you thinking DC power or DCC? If you like sound and want to run multiple engines I highly recommend DCC.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hello and welcome. As you already know, this is a great hobby; we'll try to get you hooked for life (because misery loves company).

My first piece of advice is don't rush into anything. Enthusiasm is great, but in my opinion, you'll be happier if you take some time to think about what you really want out of your layout before you spend a lot of money. Also, don't worry about doing everything right the first time. Even with all the great advice you can get here, you will still screw some things up gloriously. No shame. We all did.

So, when you say "more seriously", do you mean more realistically? Let me also say here that there are no rights and wrongs, and few betters and worses. If you want to just kick back and watch trains go around while you sip your beverage of choice, that's fine. If you want everything to run just like a real railroad, only 87 times smaller, that's also cool. Or anything in between. Likewise scenery: a perfect 1/87th reproduction of the Columbia River Gorge or a raw piece of plywood -- whatever works for you. Just make sure that what you decide is what you want, not what you think you can do. You will be surprised how much talent you already have, and how quickly ot will improve. But enough preaching.

Everything from here down is my own philosphy, take it or leave it as you will. I'm going to assume that you want more realism. Real trains don't just go around -- they do things. Transport passengers and freight. While you have sketched out a rather nifty way of keeping your trains moving without going over the same terrain, there's not much else for them to do. Less loop and more sidings will let you actually make deliveries and pickups at industries that you place on your layout. A passing track will let you run the locomotive around the train like real railroads have to do. For the record, my layout is essentially two large loops, but set up so that you can't see a train all the time unless you follow it. This creates the illusion that they are actually going some where. And I have a yard / staging area that can serve as a sorce of freight coming from "elsewhere" (that is, any place not represented on the layout).

Another big issue you have is reach. Unless you're abnormally tall, a 24-30" reach is all most people can manage without destroying their layout. That diamond in the middle will be a source of endless frustration, because that will be where the derailments occur, and it's pretty much out of reach the way you've drawn it.

It sounds like you have an enviable space at your disposal. I would break out of the box, and think modular (as you call it, although to most of us, that means parts that can be taken apart and put back together in a different order). Narrow sections (of that same 24-30" width) around the walls will give you more freedom than the large table you're currently envisioning.

Resources? Pick up a couple issues of Model Railroader and look at the articles on layout design. Model Railroad Hobbyist is an on-line only magazine which also frequently features layout designs. Kalmbach publications has several good books on the subject as well.

And now, I've rambled overly long... Good luck.


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## Brandon_5 (Oct 5, 2014)

sstlaure said:


> I think you'll get bored with it really quick (no offense meant.)
> 
> Do you just like to see the trains go round and round or do you want to "operate" some trains with picking up/dropping off cars, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply! I like seeing them go around sure, but I also definitely think some "operation" would be very interesting, and I think I have already changed my mind on the layout 

I will dive into the Model Railroader database a bit more and see what there is to draw inspiration from.

I used to have DC, but that was because that was cheaper for my parents when they were the sole purchasers haha. This is funded by me and I would like to go DCC, is that much of a challenge in terms of wiring?





CTValleyRR said:


> Hello and welcome. As you already know, this is a great hobby; we'll try to get you hooked for life (because misery loves company).
> 
> My first piece of advice is don't rush into anything. Enthusiasm is great, but in my opinion, you'll be happier if you take some time to think about what you really want out of your layout before you spend a lot of money. Also, don't worry about doing everything right the first time. Even with all the great advice you can get here, you will still screw some things up gloriously. No shame. We all did.
> 
> ...


Wow thank you for the comprehensive post! Yes precisely. When I was younger I tried to follow the proper steps for constructing but gave little attention to track planning and scenery planning...so I want to try to "do it right" so to speak and try to make a fun and interesting layout!

I think you both are right, and I should look into the narrow wall sections (sorry I wasnt sure what to call it, and the woodland scenics "mod-u-rail" things were the first thing that came to mind!) and see what kind of layouts I can draw inspiration from. Do you have your layout posted anywhere online by chance? I'd be very interested to see what some other users have done! 

Ill look in to MRR and MR Hobbyist, thank you for the tips!


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

DCC is no harder, if not easier to wire than DC.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

sstlaure said:


> DCC is no harder, if not easier to wire than DC.


I agree completely. I have an AWG12 bus wire running beneath the layout and feeders every 8 feet or so. Two reverser modules for the crossovers, and I can run all 16 of my locos at the same time (except thst I'd get confused and there would be a mojor collision somewhere).

DCC is a little costly to get into, but not a budget buster, either.

I have design drawings for two of my layouts on Photobucket. Unfortunately, that doesn't play nicely with the tablet I use to post here, so I'll have to pry the kids away from the PC long enough to, post them. Photos, on the other hand, are as far out of my reach as the moon. If it's not too blurry to see, then it's too dark to show anything.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Brandon_5 said:


> I think you both are right, and I should look into the narrow wall sections (sorry I wasnt sure what to call it, and the woodland scenics "mod-u-rail" things were the first thing that came to mind!) and see what kind of layouts I can draw inspiration from. Do you have your layout posted anywhere online by chance? I'd be very interested to see what some other users have done!


No worries. I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.

You can buy prefab pieces, but if you have even basic carpentry skills and tools, building your own is pretty simple.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I'd suggest you take a good long look at the My Layout thread. 
Here http://www.modeltrainforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36

A lot of different types of layouts and ideas there. I'm sure you'll get some ideas there on what type of operation you want to run. 
For me it's hard to just look at a layout design and see what you can really do.

Magic


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I sure agree with the suggestions you've already had posted.

One thing you asked about but did not seem to get as
much attention, and that is modular construction. This
is a very easy way to build a layout that can always be
expanded or changed. That is how I did it.

You construct a number of modules, perhaps 4' X 4'. Use
1X3 or 1X4 lumber and use screws to hold them together.
Make as many as fits your initial layout plans then bolt
them together. You can assemble the modules as an L or any other
shape that you select. Drill lots of holes where they meet or
cut notches in the top of the rails so you'll have adequate
'races' for your eventual wires. If you change your plans
you can unbolt the modules and reshuffle them into
a different pattern for your new layout.

And...definitely...plan on DCC. There is no wiring
complications with it. You simply run a 2 wire buss from the
controller and, as stated, connect occasional drops from
the track, being careful to maintain phase (polarity).

You will not need a multitude of switches and isolated
sections as was required for DC. The reason it's so
simple that is that all tracks are 'hot' at all times. The
decoder in each loco takes digital commands from the
controller. When you slow or stop the train, it's lights
stay on and bright.

If you are so inclined, you will find that a switching
operation will bring you hours of operating enjoyment.
Making up a 15 or so car freight can take a couple
of hours and keep you very busy while doing it.

With DCC you can have a train running your layout while
you are engineering the switcher. The occasional situation
where the continuously running train encounters the switcher
can provide some interesting operations.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Don reminded me that I probably should have been clearer -- when I said bus wire and feeders, I meant one for each pole of the output.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Or to decode further - think 2 wires - one red, one white. 

The Red always goes to the LH rail and the white always to the RH rail.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, Scott is so right, color coded wires is a big help
in maintaining the correct phase or polarity to tracks.

The LH/RH reference must be carefully observed but
keep in mind that in an oval, the RH rail on one side of the oval
is the LH on the other side Tho the rails are continuous.
In an oval, perhaps thinking of 'inside' and 'outside' rails
would be less confusing.

Don


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## Brandon_5 (Oct 5, 2014)

Hi guys,

thanks for the continued responses. Definitely looks like I will be going DCC!!
And I will go back to the drawing board and have another look at layout ideas. I definitely think that including more "operations" would make for a much better layout. And yes, I am quite unfamiliar to the wiring aspect, so I will have to cross that bridge when I get there and pay particular attention when I do 

Thanks for the tips on modular designs Don, it sounds like you are partial to those types of layouts. I take it you would typically use a 4x4 as a loop/corner to go back down the layout on each end?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Let's see if this works (I'm using the tablet.

Here is an older design of the layout I'm building now (I don't seem to have a digital version of the current iteration, which adds a yard / staging and modifies the industries and structures significantly). I'll have to export a picture from Anyrail and post it.... too much trouble to get into at 11:00 pm.










Here is my previous layout. Notice that it has much less operating potential.










And here is another that I threw together to give someone else some ideas:










I hope these will generate some iideas sfor you.


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## Brandon_5 (Oct 5, 2014)

They certainly will, thank you!

I have decided to base my layout on 1940's Western Canada..however I am rather disappointed by the seeming lack of Canadian Pacific Steam Loco's available. Where do you guys like to buy your Steam engines? I see Brass is one way to go...but spending $700 on one engine seems like a little steep when I am just getting back into the groove


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Brandon_5 said:


> They certainly will, thank you!
> 
> I have decided to base my layout on 1940's Western Canada..however I am rather disappointed by the seeming lack of Canadian Pacific Steam Loco's available. Where do you guys like to buy your Steam engines? I see Brass is one way to go...but spending $700 on one engine seems like a little steep when I am just getting back into the groove


It's not so much a where as a what. Most of my buying is from M. B. Klein, dba Model Train Stuff (www.modeltrainstuff.com) or Trainworld (www.trainworldonline.com), with the occasional order straight to Walthers (www.walthers.com) for hard to find and sale items.

I'm with you. Brass locos are out of my price range. My steam locos are Walthers Proto 2k and 1k (now Walthers Proto and Walthers Mainline), Bachmann Spectrum, or IHC Command XXV (out of business, but some retailers may still have stock). CP isn't an unusual roadname, but if you're having trouble finding one, you can always buy a "painted, undecorated" version and apply your own decals.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

As promised, here is the "final" design of my current layout (until I decide to tinker with it again....)


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I like your 'final' layout as in post #17. It's got a log of switching action,
yard action and continuous running action built in. Lots of great
scenic opportunities too.

And you've even got a nice little reverse loop where the outer
track in the lower right circles back to rejoin the track to the big yards.

Don


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

DonR said:


> I like your 'final' layout as in post #17. It's got a log of switching action,
> yard action and continuous running action built in. Lots of great
> scenic opportunities too.
> 
> ...


What's that gonna cost to build??


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> As promised, here is the "final" design of my current layout (until I decide to tinker with it again....)
> 
> Your layout gives me some ideas for the one that I am planning. A few questions about yours.
> 
> ...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So, at the risk of turning this into a "My Layout" thread candidate.... Hopefully Brandon_5 will find this useful. I'll start with the easy ones from MtRR75:
1) The layout is located in the middle of my basement. The long straight side is up against the stairwell (about 8 feet long, slightly to the right of the center as you look at the diagram), but that's an open wooden frame, and I can crawl in there (after moving the storage boxes) if I need to fix something. Otherwise open, although there are support pillars inside the "C" and in the upper right where the corner isn't square.
2) The yard is behind the layout, 3" higher elevation, and separated by a 9" scenic backdrop from the layout proper (or will be.... haven't done that yet).
3) See above; grade is 2% back to the yard. The overpass on the right is on the 3" elevation as well (prototype bridge in Middletown actually has a road and single track under it). Grade on that side starts just after the turnouts in lower right (the prototype uses and enormous earth and rock fill to gain grade separation, which I will model).
4) Curves are 22" radius, turnouts are #6 (6-1/2 for the curved ones).

From Bkubiak: Cost is a tough one, because I'm reusing a lot of stuff from previous layouts (about 1/3 of the track, 1/4 of the switch controllers, 3/4 of the structures, and much of the benchwork lumber). Figure $350 for the benchwork (open grid with 3" foam on top, carved down to 2" where the river is). $2400 for track if I had to buy it all new. $750 for structures, and a couple hundred for scenery materials (here again, though, lots on hand already from previous efforts). Those are rough numbers, but I did budget it out about 5 years ago, then gradually started buying track (remember that you don't have to spend all the money at once). I actually started construction about 18 months ago, and I'm sure I won't be done for years yet. I stopped for about 7months when I decided to eliminate the roundhouse and install the reversing loop (see post #14 for previous design).

DonR: Thanks. I'm very happy with how it turned out. Just a little design philosophy here. The Valley Railroad was founded in 1870 to bring passengers from a steamship dock in Old Saybrook (where they disembarked from New York and Boston) and carry them up the Connecticut River Valley to the various resorts which were there. There was, in fact, a roundhouse and turntable in Old Saybrook (the foundations are still there, if you know where to look). The New Haven RR acquired the CT Valley RR in 1891. In the early 20th Century, maintenance was moved to Cedar Hill Yard in New Haven, and the Old Saybrook facilities abandoned (except the steamship dock). I decided that the Old Saybrook roundhouse, while cool, didn't fit in with a Transition Era layout (actually, the NH was all diesel or electric by 1953, but I still operate 3 steam locos). The orginal route went to Hartford, but the line that went to Cedar Hill joins in Middletown (now parr of the Providence and Worcester network), so that's where I stopped. Historically, the CT River Valley was known for agriculture, lumber, and light industry, all of which are represented on the layout (don't know if you can see the labels or not). The Brownstone Quarry is actually across the river in Portland, and shipped most of it's product by barge, but I wanted another industry and picked that one. The coal plant in Middletown (Laurel Plant) was the last customer on the line before it was abandoned in 1970. Operationally, you can daisy chain two sets of industries (sawmill to lumber yard to piano factory -- a real industry, BTW -- to warehouse; and farm to creamery) without your train leaving the layout, or ship to Cedar Hill Yard for forwarding. All coal loads come from Cedar Hill, and all brownstone and wine goes out that way. General merchandise for Old Saybrook and Middletown, comes from Cedar Hill and goes out the same way. Passenger trains cycle the loop from Old Saybrook dock to Middletown via East Haddam. I normally just set this train running at moderate speed to make things harder for the freight guys. No blocking the main or leaving turnouts lined against the passenger train! Speaking of turnouts, they are all controlled by servos and activated by push buttons on a switch map which is located where the East Haddam Swing Bridge comes across (top center). Geographically, BTW, the operator(s) are standing IN the Connecticut River, which is never far from the inside edge and is often modeled at the edge. The backdrop is intended to provide a visual separation between the yard and the CT River Valley, without obscuring the yard, and much of the terrain is exaggerated in elevation to prevent seeing the front and back of the same train as it loops around. My previous layout seemed good when I built it, but it turned out it didn't provide enough operating potential, and I got bored. I still wanted to be able to run trains in a loop, though, so this is the compromise that developed.

Hopefully, everyone found this interesting and is still awake!


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## Brandon_5 (Oct 5, 2014)

Absolutely! Any and all tips and advice are more than welcome! I 'm currently revising and researching some things before I "break ground" hehe  Bet of luck to everyone


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## ScrewySqrl (Oct 7, 2014)

brandon: are you still planning the trapezoidal corner 4x8 area?


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