# MTH DCS versus Lionel Legacy: My Story, History, Opinion



## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

First a little history...

When I first returned to O Gauge model railroading in the early 2000's I was SHOCKED at the offerings.
Williams, K-Line, MTH, Lionel, Weaver, 3rd Rail, etc.
It took me almost the entire time between Thanksgiving and New Years to decide what I was going to buy.
First off, I knew I wanted command control, and my first time seeing TMCC in a hobby shop sold me.

Unfortunately, I could not understand Lionels TMCC Product offering.
There was such a wide variety of components, and I could not make ends out of it.
In comparison, when I took a look at MTH DCS, I saw a TIU and a remote.
Done....So that is what I purchased.

However, when I received the MTH DCS set, I was like "ok where is the power source"?
A few google searches later and I had my "Doh" moment...
I was fortunate enough to find a MTH Z-4000 transformer locally and hence had my "expensive" power supply.
I did not realize a few years later that all I needed was a Z-1000 brick.

A theft of all my MTH trains in 2007 left me high and dry with no trains...(my 2 1960s Lionel sets my father bought me were spared).

Roll forward to 2009...

I had found the complete set online of 1890s Scientific Americans volumes on the NYC transit incl during 1875-1900, that Joseph Brennan Posted here:

http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/

That sealed the deal, I made my decision, and after a few years of determination to ONLY model the NYC&HRR at the turn of the century, and happy with the fact my purchases since 2007 to replace all my stolen trains only consisted of 2 MTH Preimier NYC&HRR 4-4-0s and the associated passenger car set including add on's, I began my layout in earnest.

Several partial builds and tear downs later in 2012 I was 75% on my way to finishing the layout.
Then my mother passed away...that same year.

In the aftermath, I got it into my head that I have worked hard for 50 years, was emotionally drained from my mothers death and depressed.
That is when I started to really take notice in what people were saying in train forums beyond my much loved MTH NYC&HRR.
Especially what guys like Lee Willis, Brian Vaill (PTC), and others were saying.
Imagine having years and years of OGR and CTT magazines, of which I ignored 90% of what was in them because it was not related to the NYC&HRR or NYC.

That's depressing to limit ones self to just one small tiny corner of O Gauge....it's crazy...but, it changed... and man oh man did exploring open up to products beyond MTH and the NYC...a big world of O Gauge offerings to me!

It started slowly, first with Williams Scale GG-1s, then a Vintage Post War fever set in, and I purchased famous and much touted Lionel 2343 and 2353 Santa Fe F3's.

Then, after weeks and weeks of lamenting over Vintage Texas Special prices, I saw a good price for a Lionel PWC TMCC Texas Special A Unit and grabbed it.
I ran it conventionally as I had no TMCC or Legacy set ups and the first thing I noticed was NO SOUND!
I scratched my head and re-read the ad, the manual, and posted on the forums of how a PWC TMCC Powered A Unit could have no sound?
Ah! You have to buy the "Other A Unit"...the unpowered one with all the sound!
Huh? Unpowered with sound and powered with no sound? It made no sense to me.
So that is when I purchased the unpowered A Unit...then the B-Unit with Super Bass and Fat Boy Speakers..and then a new Legacy Command System from a close friend nearby.

Hence a new world!

I won't bore you with my TMCC and Legacy purchases from 2012 to 2014, when I stopped buying them.

So at this point I was running both MTH DCS and Lionel Legacy, with a bunch of MTH PS2 and PS3 trains as well as a bunch of Lionel TMCC and Legacy trains.
My conventional trains were shelf queens for now.

As of 2015, I think I can provide an analysis of MTH DCS versus Lionel Legacy in "plain English" for the folks like me who were confused or still are...and for the entertainment of the more experienced folks.

MTH DCS:

STRENGTHS - System has not changed much in the years it has been out, except for internal components and downloaded updates.

A DCS set (TIU and Remote) and a Power Supply like the MTH Z-1000 is all that's needed.
Very reliable, I own two TIUs and one only failed recently after years of abuse (dropped glue into it etc etc).

Easy to understand, easy to use remote, great manual, even greater DCS book by Barry B.
Engines go from complete silence to running with a push of a button, with no slight TMCC or Legacy humm ( I am nitpicking).

All PS2 and PS3 engines have Passenger Sounds and Freight Sounds included, no need for something like Lionel Station Sound cars.
Simple connections, 2 fixed outputs for DCS and 2 variable outputs for conventional.
Both the MTH DCS system and PS2/PS3 engines seem to cost less than Lionels.

In a nutshell, I have found MTH's DCS system to be very reliable and easy to use, I love it!

WEAKNESS - Early TIU models are inferior to later ones internally, even though they look identical. This includes safety components like fuses and circuit breakers especially.
Learning the Revisions and knowing what revision you are buying can be important.
Signal strength can be an issue, but work around's exist (strategically placed bulbs) to increase signal.

Lionel Legacy:

STRENGTHS - The Lionel name speaks for itself with new comers. Lionel's Mike Reagan has released tons of videos to show you how to use these systems.
Just as with MTH DCS, it can run conventional or command and control.

Very simple wiring, one ground wire from the Legacy base....but (see weakness).
A ton of add-on's.
A ton of features.

WEAKNESS - Can be very confusing...so many acronyms, so many components.
Despite the one ground wire connection from the Legacy base, you need an additional power and ground to the tracks. Thus, 3 basic connections versus 2 basic connections for MTH DCS.

Quality control issues...seems every release of Legacy is hit or miss, as for example the last batch earlier this year had all kinds of issues both cosmetic, physical, and operational, including DOA's and broken plastic components. 

Roll the dice.

I was lucky as my friend sold me an earlier version, but that version had possibly overheating charging contacts on the Legacy base, it was a known issue and a great many Legacy systems had this defect. I forget what the exact nature of it was.
Anyway, I just electrical taped mine over and do not charge the Legacy remote. I just get new batteries when needed.
I did not feel like sending it back to Lionel right from the get go....I wanted to run trains!

Much more complicated in setting up engines than MTH DCS and the manual is HORRIBLE.
Hard to read fonts, bad grammar, and just cluttered and confusing.

Must purchase seperate Station Sound Cars in order to have Passenger Station Sounds Announcements, whereas all MTH PS2/3 already have them built into the engines and no need to spend another $200-$400 for a diner car to produce such announcements.

CONCLUSION:

I realize the more experienced of us will not have any issues with any weakness I posted for either system.
But, for those new to command and control I would think it would.

However, do not allow either systems weakness to keep you from buying either one.
It is just a matter of sharing my opinion based on my experiences and what I know and have learned about these systems over the years.
Also, I especially want to help newer folks in a very simplistic manner of explaining all this.

My goal is to help those on the fence in making a decision, but moreover to have people use BOTH systems, yet understand what they are getting into.
As I feel by not using one or the other will limit the ton of possibilities available to you.

Please feel free to add, correct, and/or comment.


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## Marklx200 (Jun 14, 2015)

I agree with your descriptions of the two systems. When I was looking at systems, the list of components and the prices of those components and no clear description of how it worked or how simple it was or was not, is why I went with DCS over Legacy . I ordered a TIU and remote off of E-bay and when it came I hooked it up, put a loco on the track, turned it on and it all worked like a charm. The descriptions of Legacy or tmcc are confusing at best, I suppose there is a good one somewhere and I just haven't seen it yet. And after using DCS it may not be as complicated to use Legacy as I originally thought. Also for me was the price. MTH has the Rail King line with less expensive locos and the starter sets that have PS3 and good quality cars. I don't buy Premier because of price and the price of legacy locos is one of the big reasons I didn't go with Lionel. Even the new Lionchief+ locos are priced at or higher than some of the cheaper Rail King stuff. So for me it was price and simplicity.

Mark


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

In late 2000,I got back into trains after a 7-8 year hiatus. I eased in at first buying just MTH items as I still had a sour taste for Lionel. I ran just conventional with Z4000's for a few years and then jumped in the DCS pool in 2005. I ran what Lionel I had conventionally through the DCS remote. I had few issues with this setup. In 2011,I bought my first Legacy locomotive,then several more Legacy locomotives (Nearly all had some defect and many went back to Lionel-No longer seeing these initial issues anymore).Unable to unlock all the Legacy features,I bought the Legeacy controller. While the legacy system works,The setup,programming with use of the little modules is a pain. The design of the remote is confusing,but I got the hang of it. As of late,I've not been buying many "new" Lionel or MTH locomotives. In the past 2-3 years it's been all re-issues in Legacy or PS3. I've been buying older locomotives that I don't have on my roster. 

From my point of view,the MTH system is easier to use to set up and enter a locomotive. That's a big plus IF you have a lot of locomotives like me. The Legacy system is super simple to hook up and once you get all the locomotives entered,your work is done. Once I got the hang of the Legacy controller it worked flawlessly. I plan to use both systems on my new layout.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll have to post the opposing view, and it's from quite a bit of experience with the two systems. I find MTH DCS a lot harder to both wire and to live with, though it's certainly possible. As for "complicated wiring" for TMCC/Legacy, I don't see that at all. In anything but the largest layouts, one wire really does the trick. I'm not sure where the "power and ground" from the tracks come in that Vince mentions, all layouts need power and ground to the tracks last time I checked. I realize that for multiple level layouts, you occasionally need to run an earth ground line for good signal propagation, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Let's talk about DCS now. The "two wires" is a total myth! Let's be fair here! The only time you run "two wires" is for the simplest layout. If you have multiple levels and power districts, you have multiple wires from the TIU channels to support each power district. Add to that the fact that in order to get reliable operation of DCS on a large layout, you need to follow fairly strict wiring practices that simply don't exist with TMCC/Legacy.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Chipset35 for posting your review of the systems. 

Lionel Legacy was my first command control system, then later added DCS. My initial challenges with Legacy were my own OEs. On my own smaller layout, I don't have any issues with either system. 

I will say, however, when I belonged to the San Diego 3 Railers Club, we did have a variety of DCS issues. I agree with the Gunrunner that DCS can be more complex. At the SD3R, I believe we figured out the issues and seem to have reliable performance most of the time. 

Quite frankly, I learned a lot about DCS in the process for larger layouts.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2015)

*I agree with John completely*. TMCC/Legacy is state of the art and could not be simpler to install or use.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks for taking the time to write that up Chip.

I believe I'm in the minority here or any train forum as I don't have a layout and am strictly a Christmastime runner. 

I got back into trains in the early years of TMCC and loved what it did. Now I also need to say that 99.9% of what I own or have owned comes in orange and blue boxes. This is not meant to slight any of the other manufacturers, but simply a way for me to try to learn, understand and remember one system. Even with Legacy I find myself pulling out the instructions every year.

When your not immersed in this all year long it can and does get confusing. Bricks, TIU's, Cab1, TMCC, PS1, PS2, PS3, Legacy, chopped sine, smooth sine, ZW, ZW-C, ZW-L, powermaster, powerhouse and so on.

So for me the answer is Lionel just because my noggin can't hold and remember all this!!


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## Larry Sr. (Sep 7, 2015)

Chip
Appreciate the topic for information to anyone starting .

The answer I come up with is so well stated by Jeff I'm cheating and copying it.

I had big dreams when I started and purchased all of it. By the time I started reading the manuals Lionel and DCS Barry's book?????? I was brain dead. *Further more even more important I had no interest in learning both.* 

I sold the MTH stuff brand new . Never even hooked it up.

This is my copy response: *ADDING* just a few TPC's, Cab2

When your not immersed in this all year long it can and does get confusing. Bricks, TIU's, Cab1, TMCC, PS1, PS2, PS3, Legacy, chopped sine, smooth sine, ZW, ZW-C, ZW-L, powermaster, powerhouse and so on.

*So for me the answer is Lionel just because my noggin can't hold and remember all this!!*

Larry

Oh, and by the way I still have a very long way to go on learning TMCC/Legacy.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

Basically, my MTH and Lionel Command and Control is as follows:
1 MTH TIU with only one pair of fixed output wires to the tracks going to an MTH terminal block.
From there it goes to 3 seperate MTH lockon's with each powering 1 of 3 independent loops.
Powered by 1 MTH Z-1000 brick.

1 Lionel Legacy Base running 1 loop, with 1 ground wire from Legacy Base to Tracks and 1 power and one ground from 1 MTH Z-1000 brick to the track.

2 conventional loops powered by 2 MTH Z-1000 transformers and bricks.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Let's talk about DCS now. The "two wires" is a total myth! Let's be fair here! The only time you run "two wires" is for the simplest layout. If you have multiple levels and power districts, you have multiple wires from the TIU channels to support each power district. Add to that the fact that in order to get reliable operation of DCS on a large layout, you need to follow fairly strict wiring practices that simply don't exist with TMCC/Legacy.


From my 12 year experience with DCS, there are three simple consistencies that help make it work well. And they're not necessarily 'demandments".
*The wiring
*Clean center rail and pick-up rollers
*Charged engine battery (for PS 2 only)

*Wiring*
MTH 'recommends' the 'star pattern' or 'home run' wiring, which is power wires from the TIU connected to a terminal block, with the feeder wires from the track all connected to the terminal block. _(Imagine the terminal block in the center with feeder wires spanning out to the tracks like a star)_

That is one way to do it. On my layout I had eight _(now reduced to six)_ mainlines in an around the walls configuration with each loop approximately 140 ft. long. After wiring the first loop of track in the star pattern, I had such a rats nest of wires I couldn't even imagine doing it to seven more loops! Plus, the wire runs were so long I was spending a fortune on wire. And to make it worse, I wasn't getting a good DCS signal. I was thinking all the naysayers were right! After talking with a DCS beta tester, I decided to try the bus wire method.

So I removed all the star pattern wiring and started over. I was glad I only tried it with one loop and tested it first before proceeding with the rest of the loops. I then installed eight 12 gauge wires around the perimeter of my layout _(one for each track loop)_ as bus wires. I began the bus wires from the _output_ of the TIU and ran the wire around the room under the layout.

Proceeding to the track work I picked a spot to install a plastic track joiner to the center rail to insulate the block at one end. From there I counted five track joints, mostly 40" long Atlas O straight and/or O99 curve tracks, and connected the feeder wires from the track to the nearest spot on the bus wire for that track. I then counted five more track joints and added another plastic rail joiner to the center rail, creating a block. I repeated this method until I got back to where I started on the loop. 

So depending on how long your track loops are, you could have just a few power feeders. If you have a smaller layout, you may only need one or two blocks. This helps keep the DCS signal from running into itself throughout the track loop which causes degradation of the command signal.

Part of the key to this, which I discovered through trial and error (mostly errors), is to *NOT* connect the ends of the bus wire together. Leave them open ended. I have older versions of the TIU so I attached an 18 volt bulb to the ends of the bus wire for each loop _(the latest versions of the TIU have improved signal strength, so no need for the bulbs)_. There is some technical reason the bulb improves the signal strength that I read but don't comprehend.

Wiring this way gave me a maximum 10 signal strength! So if you already have bus wiring installed on your layout, don't change it, just add the DCS TIU to your existing layout and see if it works before you change anything. If you have issues, try what I did.

*Clean center rail and pick-up rollers*
This is something that should be done for any layout anyway, but a simple troubleshooting task to check first if you have operating problems with DCS.

*Charged engine battery*
I've found this to cure a lot of DCS ills I've encountered. If you get "Engine Not On Track" display it may just be a low PS 2 engine battery or low remote batteries.

I had a pair of PS2 F7's that after awhile just did not work. They wouldn't run, power up or move. Being one to always try an easy solution first, I got out my MTH DCS battery charger and plugged it into the locomotive for a few hours. When I tried to run the engines again, they operated like they were brand new!! The charger is an invaluable tool for PS2 engines. However, you can also charge the battery by placing it on the track, power it up and leave it sit in neutral overnight or about 8-10 hours. It works the same way.

So here's the Cliff Notes version:

-Star wiring or Bus wiring is ok. Start the bus wire from the TIU output terminals 

-Install feeder wires every 10 track joints (doesn't matter the length of the tracks)

-Install plastic rail joiners, or cut the center rail between each feeder wire to create a block

-Attach feeder wires to the bus wire for it's loop

-Do not connect the ends of the bus wire together and add an 18 volt light bulb to the end of the bus. If you do the star pattern wiring, add the bulbs to the terminal block where you attach the power wire from the TIU. I used those ceramic bulb bases and connected the end of the bus wire to them. If you have the latest TIU version bulbs are not needed.

- Connect your transformer to the TIU input terminals. To power the TIU, I suggest using an external power supply.

-Keep your engine and remote batteries charged. Running the engines also keeps them charged.

P.S - I only used one output terminal from a Z-4000 transformer to power each 140 ft. loop on my layout with no power issues.

As for Legacy, I've had it since the first Legacy Big Boy was released, but I'm just starting to use it now. You can attach the wire from the Legacy command base to the common output on the DCS TIU to get the Legacy signal to the tracks. So far I had minor module installation issues and getting to know the numbering of engines and the icons on the display, but I'll get use to it as I use it. To me it's much more user friendly than the TMCC Cab-1.

Apologies for the long post, but I hope it helps somebody!


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

I have no issues with either system. TMCC/ Legacy is simple to install and use. DCS is also simple to install and a bit harder to use but it does more. I run DCS passive, have the latest TIU and clean the track frequently, and very rarely have an issue. Not the folks here, but I think to some extent many of the reported "problems" with the systems come from people not reading the instructions. Granted Lionel had some issues with Legacy early on but those are resolved and the support has been very good.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I buy both and don't even think about it. After having Legacy for a year or so, and playing with DCS, I have for the past seven years used only conventional. Why - because it is the only 'control system' that runs everything. 

I will note that, when the locos are otherwise equivalent, I try to buy Lionel. This is based on my experience over time. If I buy a new Lionel Legacy loco and it runs out of the box for the first how, my experience is it will be running with no problems five years later. With MTH, I can't say that. A lot of this has to do with the MTH wireless drawbar, it is delicate and difficult to seat compared to the Legacy IR connection. But I also have problems with connectors on boards coming loose, etc., which are annoying. 

In spite of this, lately I have been buying many more MTH than Lionel, just because they are bringing out so many more steamers I want.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

"Both the MTH DCS system and PS2/PS3 engines seem to cost less than Lionels."

That says it all in a nutshell for me. You get a lot more bang for the buck with MTH.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Thanks Brian for all of your information. I agree. From what I can remember from the SD3R, there were too many track feeders from the bus which caused the DCS signal to tank.


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