# Plywood vs. lumber for frame



## Sunsanvil (Jan 25, 2017)

I picked up some 1x4 #2 pine at Kent last week thinking I would start framing a section. I tried to cherry-pick but when I got it home I could see that half are probably unusable due to notable crowning. I'm going to take these back but the Select grade honestly wasnt perfect either. I'm wondering if something like 3/4 ply cut into 3.5" strips would do better? It would certainly me truer but would it take screws on the end as well etc?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

If you do this you will have to be very careful screwing into end or side grain in plywood. Screw & glue.

My 1x4's were pretty good, but my benchwork is still all screwed & glued. Solid as a rock.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Personally, I don't run screws into the end of a board. I cut a 2 x 2 into a piece the width of the board, then use that as a cleat and screw both boards into that.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Michael's layout structure looks great! 1"x4" wood can be made to work and it is not heavy. My layout structure is all 3/4" plywood. The end result is great but it is heavier and harder to build correctly. Mine was done by a professional with all the correct power tools to cut all the plywood beams and make make the tongue and slot connections.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Sunsanvil said:


> I picked up some 1x4 #2 pine at Kent last week thinking I would start framing a section. I tried to cherry-pick but when I got it home I could see that half are probably unusable due to notable crowning. I'm going to take these back but the Select grade honestly wasnt perfect either. I'm wondering if something like 3/4 ply cut into 3.5" strips would do better? It would certainly me truer but would it take screws on the end as well etc?


Sunsanvil;

Really good quality plywood can be cut and used for beams, instead of dimensional lumber. I too don't recommend screwing into the ends of either plywood or lumber. It can be done, but both can split too easily. Using 3/4" thick plywood is gross overkill for model railroad benchwork, in my opinion. Yes, hundreds of layouts have been built on 4' x 8' sheets of 3/4" thick plywood, and it has also been used as framing. However, the stuff is very heavy and fairly expensive too.
A layout's benchwork needs to be strong enough to support model trains. If designed properly, it should never be necessary for a person to crawl on top of it, but even if that ever were to become necessary, there are lighter, and frankly better, ways of doing it than creating an overweight monster.
A sheet of two inch thick extruded foam can support model trains, track, structures, & scenery without any plywood under it. If set on top of open grid benchwork with stringers every 16", it will even support a grown man. L-girder is even stronger than open grid, requires fewer stringers, and most importantly is practically warp proof.
Fairly thin, lightweight, wood can be assembled into L-girders, or box girders, and will support many times its own weight. L-girder is commonly made from a 1 x 3 and a 1 x 2 glued together. (See photo #1) However, it can be made from other materials. Since your having trouble finding straight, un-warped wood, here are two suggestions. 

1) It's possible albeit a pain in the posterior, to straighten the warped wood. 
In the process of building a small layout for my grandson, I wanted to make an L-girder frame. The only 1 x 2 boards available at Lowes, or Home Depot, were curved "hockey sticks." I screwed and glued them to some straight 1 x 3 stock I had at home. In the process, using heavy-duty 'C'-clamps, I was able to straighten out the worst of the bends in the 1 x 2s. 

2) Luan plywood sheets are available at those same stores. 1/4" luan, cut into 3" strips, can be glued into an L-girder. I would use a 1 x 1 piece of lumber (ripped from larger stock) in the corner to reinforce the joint. An alternative would be to use a piece of commercial moulding.
Luan can also be glued around foam to make a box girder. The 2" x 2" beam in photo #2 is actually stronger, and much lighter, than the normal 2" x 2" beam in the background.

So, you have plenty of choices, just pick the one you want.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Aard D'Vaark (Aug 1, 2019)

i used 3/4 inch plywood cut to 3 1/2 wide, and im quite happy with it ..
i predrilled and countersunk for screws


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Not sure what "Kent" is -- a home improvement big box store? You will generally find better quality lumber at a dedicated lumber yard. I have picked through entire tracks of lumber at big box stores and not been able to find half a dozen acceptable boards. If I buy from my local lumber yard, I pay half again as much per board foot, but I rarely get an unusable junk board.

As far as the choice, this is one of those cases where there is no clear advantage either way. You can do either, or mix and match. And FWIW, pre-drilling and countersinking is always a good idea when woodworking.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I usually use finishing washers instead of counter sinking, even less chance of splitting the lumber.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

If you have a band saw, you can get good quality and straight 6x4s which can be cut down to 1x4 dimensions.

I am doing this now and it's working really well for me.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, the guy that came to provide assistance in building my layout uses plywood for a majority of the layouts he builds, and he's built a lot of them! A few examples.

*Bethel Benchwork*


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## Aard D'Vaark (Aug 1, 2019)

i like the bottom photo, must have taken a bit of time to router that out ...


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Wow, that is amazing benchwork!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

johnfm3 said:


> If you have a band saw, you can get good quality and straight 6x4s which can be cut down to 1x4 dimensions.
> 
> I am doing this now and it's working really well for me.


So you're sawing a piece of lumber 6" wide and 4" tall and of some indeterminate length into 1" wide by 4" tall boards of the same indeterminate length? And if I understand your other thread correctly, you want to cut them all to 4' length.

That is a lot of extra work in my book, especially without a table saw, but your time and effort are your own to spend. I'd go to the lumber yard and buy quality 1x4 lumber, then saw to the correct length on a radial arm saw.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

johnfm3 said:


> If you have a band saw, you can get good quality and straight 6x4s which can be cut down to 1x4 dimensions.
> 
> I am doing this now and it's working really well for me.


I second that, if I need to cut long straights, I turn to the table saw, it makes quick work out of them. I can't imagine doing it on a bandsaw unless you have one honkin' large bandsaw!
Ripping lumber is really a table saw job, at least IMO.
I am curious how you cut them to 4' lengths with a bandsaw, that would be a garage sized bandsaw with a 4' throat!


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> That is a lot of extra work in my book, especially without a table saw, but your time and effort are your own to spend. I'd go to the lumber yard and buy quality 1x4 lumber, then saw to the correct length on a radial arm saw.


In my opinion a bandsaw is far superior to resawing over a table saw. Far less waste in wood allowing more board feet used to than wasted. Its called Kerf, and the table saw blade is twice that of a normal bandsaw blade. And my resaw blade is almost 3 times less.

Price out one 8ft 6x4 now compare that with the cost of six 8ft 1x4's. And thats comparing to #2 1x4s. The price gap is larger when compared to prime 1x4s. Its a huge cost savings making it possible for me to afford this hobby. And it just takes my time to cut it. And I have the tooling to do so.

If you would like to continue this converation, I am willing to do off this thread. Its not fair to polute this thread with a off topic conversation.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'll reply here, because it's germane to everything in hobby: time is also a scarce resource. In my case, much more so than money. As I said, your time is your own to spend (and if you enjoy resawing wood, so much the better), but time saved is often money well spent. The cost / time / quality tradeoff is unique to each person.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> ...The cost / time / quality tradeoff is unique to each person.


lol and I say with 3 kids in college (1 in the 4th year and 2 just starting out) and a 2 yr old which has daycare, a penny saved is a penny earned. Time toward my hobby is free and away to get out of the house lol, and part of the experience which I enjoy. Hard earned income can be used else where if not in the layout.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

johnfm3 said:


> In my opinion a bandsaw is far superior to resawing over a table saw. Far less waste in wood allowing more board feet used to than wasted. Its called Kerf, and the table saw blade is twice that of a normal bandsaw blade. And my resaw blade is almost 3 times less.


Well, at my advanced age, I value my time as I have less and less of it in front of me. That being the case, I'll waste the 1/16" per cut to do the job way faster on my table saw. Ripping wood in a bandsaw sounds like an exercise in futility to me. Unless this is a very big bandsaw, it has to take many times the amount of time to do it on a decent table saw.

Of course, the cost of wood is chump change when compared to some of the other expenses in the hobby, so I use my time to save big time on that end of the spectrum.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Unless this is a very big bandsaw, it has to take many times the amount of time to do it on a decent table saw.


In my opinion, its not slow at all. I spend more time running the lumber thru the planer (which I would do if I owned a table saw as well) than running it thru the band saw. I can rip almost almost 1ft per 15 second. But that has a lot to do with a good quality resaw blade and not so much the power of the machine which is a 1.5hp machine


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## jackpresley (Dec 19, 2017)

Our lumber yards here are taken over by contractors. No culling on site. Take it home, cull it and return what you don't want. Since it is a 40 minute drive each way for me, I just go to Lowe's or Home Depot and get their white pine (usually standing up near the Poplar and Oak boards). Costs more but it is more true and easier to find straight stuff faster.

Perfection is the killer of good enough.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When I bought my Baltic Birch for the layout, I went to a plywood specialty house, they drove out to the truck with a palate of the 5x5 sheets on a forklift. I picked what I wanted, and truthfully there were no bad ones, and I was on my way. The only sheet I rejected was the top sheet as it had the imprints of the shipping bands in it. With a quality lumber yard, there should be minimal culling.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I think the op right about using the bandsaw. If you've seen those portable sawmils their all bandsaws and they are quick and automated, perfect for resawing. My brother made all the lumber for his house this way, so I know it works great!


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Benchwork is the starting point of your layout, after the planning phase. If ya don't plan it thoroughly, you have no assurance of a solid end product. Planning includes testing and research of some degree or another.
You establish your requirements then test and and plan to those standards. Anything less is just wandering aimlessly and spending more on corrections as you run into problems.
In my initial plans, I wanted a layout that would be operated as a club quality layout with many operators. The benchwork would withstand people leaning against it without moving, flexing or tipping. The design would also support the miles of wires that would be installed below the operating surface. The plan would also support scenery of varying complexities, from flat yards to mountains over 8' high and canyons to the floor. I determined my layout design and how it would fit in my 2,000 square foot basement to include minimum curve radius. I did drawings to ensure I had all aspects covered of how to support the roadbed. Once all that was accomplished I began the work.
The layout is 6 1/2 scale miles of double track mainline serving 14 industries with a large classification yard with an operating signal system and full duplex DCC system.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

johnfm3 said:


> lol and I say with 3 kids in college (1 in the 4th year and 2 just starting out) and a 2 yr old which has daycare, a penny saved is a penny earned. Time toward my hobby is free and away to get out of the house lol, and part of the experience which I enjoy. Hard earned income can be used else where if not in the layout.


I have three kids in college right now. One paying his own way and two loaded with scholarships (including one free ride at Penn State: $1200 / semester out of state). So guess what I can do with the money I was saving for college? Not all of it, obviously. I work 50+ hours a week at a good paying job (plus another 7-ish hours a week commuting) , spend about 5 hours a week on merit badge counselling for local Boy Scouts, and am President of the Friends of my local tourist RR as well. It's a good day when I can spend an hour with the trains. But that's exactly the point. Everyone's value assessment of cost / time / quality is different. Right for one doesn't mean right for another. By all means, recommend a way to save money, but don't be surprised if others don't assign the same importance to it that you do.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> ....Right for one doesn't mean right for another. By all means, recommend a way to save money, but don't be surprised if others don't assign the same importance to it that you do.


This is so true. And I normally dont worry what others think of my opinions untill it fees as if I am being attacked. I dont like having to constantly defend why I decide to resaw my lumber which has produced great savings and joy for me. And it seems to be from the same people over and over again on different threads. My opinion didnt change, so why do you think my advice would? Like you said "...Right for one doesn't mean right for another.". And hearing the same thing over and over again when I make this option is starting to rub me raw.

Give your advise, and let the advise of all those who provide feedback stand on its merits for the OP to decide what is going to work best for the OP. The OP's thread should not be a battle ground over a difference in opinion or way of doing things.

Again, I gave advise. Advise that people may not adhere too, but its still advise. And something for the OP to consider or not.

And to the OP, my apologies for this bleeding over into your thread. It started in my thread and seemed to finds its way into yours.

John


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