# One Athearn Junkesis fixed.......



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Finally got the FEF-2 4-8-4 running 100% proper for the first time in its existence.

Got some time down at the train club solo this morning for some work/test/tune since the older boy started school this week.

Broke down the tender wheels/pickups and cleaned and adjusted them meticulously again....

I got turned onto some CRC-26(light lube/conductive)by a fellow club member and gingerly applied some to the pickup wipers and spun the wheels, I also dabbed each wheel in one spot and spun them again after I installed them. I let it sit for a bit and wiped off any excess anywhere and gave it a whirl.

Ran flawlessly. All the issues were on large radius curves and it was tender pickup related, even touching it would bring it back to life again.

Now up to 3 of 4 Genesis locomotives being able to run the club layout without breaking/stalling/sputtering,etc.

I wouldn't be pissed if it was some cheapo I got for a steal but at near $300 on sale and a coupon I expect more. Premium line should be premium quality.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

That's actually pretty scary.
I'm in the process of lining up a BLI RSD-15, and a Genesis GP40-2 by mail order, and even without hearing about quality issues, I'm nervous about it.

There should be no reason (or excuse) for poor quality in a locomotive, especially in one that expensive.
It's sounding like pre-package testing is only done at random, and not very often.

They surely must be getting emails of complaint, so you'd think they'd step up their sampling/testing protocol.
I understand they were probably boxed months before they're sold, so they can't know about quality issues until they're purchased.
But that only means the QA system in place let's the _customer_ do the testing -- a very bad manufacturing philosophy.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Tender loco electric link?*



3.8TransAM said:


> Finally got the FEF-2 4-8-4 running 100% proper for the first time in its existence.
> 
> Got some time down at the train club solo this morning for some work/test/tune since the older boy started school this week.
> 
> ...


3.8 TransAM;

Glad you got it running right! Sad the manufacturer didn't! A question for you. What system is used to carry electricity from the tender to the locomotive? Wires soldered to both loco and tender (possibly with a plug & socket in between) would be the most reliable. Some older steamers used a spring wire on the draw-bar, pushing against a pin on the tender, to carry power. This arrangement didn't work nearly as well.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

LateStarter said:


> That's actually pretty scary.
> I'm in the process of lining up a BLI RSD-15, and a Genesis GP40-2 by mail order, and even without hearing about quality issues, I'm nervous about it.
> 
> There should be no reason (or excuse) for poor quality in a locomotive, especially in one that expensive.
> ...


Exactly, for what stuff costs now, there should be zero issues out of the box. I had to go to the club to work on it because I could not duplicate a large radius curve that it occurred on using my 45 inch test track empire.



traction fan said:


> 3.8 TransAM;
> 
> Glad you got it running right! Sad the manufacturer didn't! A question for you. What system is used to carry electricity from the tender to the locomotive? Wires soldered to both loco and tender (possibly with a plug & socket in between) would be the most reliable. Some older steamers used a spring wire on the draw-bar, pushing against a pin on the tender, to carry power. This arrangement didn't work nearly as well.
> 
> Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


It is wired with a plug and socket.

Engine and tender have pickups, all drivers and believe 4 sets on the tender as well. Having taken it apart, to clean, lube and tweak, the pickup at all points is pretty sketchy. At some point reliable pickup vs. drag induced has got to give and it is quite useless if the engine won't go under it's own power!

I love the damned thing, it looks great, pulls great and sounds great, but regardless of that for the price I still shouldn't have to touch it.


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

3.8TransAM said:


> Exactly, for what stuff costs now, there should be zero issues out of the box. I had to go to the club to work on it because I could not duplicate a large radius curve that it occurred on using my 45 inch test track empire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The real secret to the electrical issues you speak of is that the wheels are travelling so far to the side that one side of the pair or the other no longer touches the wiper. The fix is to unscrew the cover plates on the bottom of the locomotive chassis and the tender chassis (the part that holds the five stationary axles in place; you'll need to remove the rear coupler pocket) and bend the wipers out farther, and then reinstall them. This is the same fix I applied to my Athearn Genesis FEF-3.


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

LateStarter said:


> That's actually pretty scary.
> I'm in the process of lining up a BLI RSD-15, and a Genesis GP40-2 by mail order, and even without hearing about quality issues, I'm nervous about it.
> 
> There should be no reason (or excuse) for poor quality in a locomotive, especially in one that expensive.
> ...


I've got over a dozen BLI engines. They all run very well. I had one decoder fry when the locomotive hard-shorted on a turnout frog, and another that just fried itself, and BLI replaced all necessary parts under their warranty.

My Athearn Genesis engines all run well, but the diesels all use lightbulbs which will eventually burn out.

As far as your QA gripes, it just isn't possible to comprehensively test every single model that leaves the factory, not if you want to keep the price halfway reasonable. You can do basic testing on every engine, plunk it on a track, does it move? Yes. Does it light up? Yes. Does it make sound (if applicable)? Yes. Good. Ship it. It just isn't possible to test every engine the way you want. It would take far too long and cost way too much, and even if you do use a test article and test the hell out of it, you won't catch even a fraction of all the bugs that will crop up in the rest of the production run. You can grab a sample out of every hundred or thousand or so, and test it to destruction, but that still costs money, and you still won't catch all the bugs. It's faster and cheaper to simply repair under warranty the one in a hundred or one in a thousand bugs that get reported than it is to try and test for those bugs and design them away beforehand. That way, you actually find 100% of the bugs in the engines.

There's no such thing as a perfect bug-free locomotive. And frankly, we should have sufficient tinkering skills to solve issues ourselves. I had two MTH engines that each had a problem binding up. Now I could've spent $30 on shipping and sent it back to MTH, and have them take two months and possibly not even find the problem, or I can spend a few hours swearing at the thing while I figure out the problem myself, and then use $0.02 worth of styrene strip to fix the problem, and save myself a lot of time and money. Besides, real railroads fix their own engines, why shouldn't we?


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

fs2k4pilot said:


> I've got over a dozen BLI engines. They all run very well. I had one decoder fry when the locomotive hard-shorted on a turnout frog, and another that just fried itself, and BLI replaced all necessary parts under their warranty.
> 
> My Athearn Genesis engines all run well, but the diesels all use lightbulbs which will eventually burn out.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you all the way. I too have had issues with companies. No matter the cost or brand of the loco we buy, we will always have some that don't run perfect out of the box. I get upset with locos at times too, but like you most of the time a little cleaning, and a little tweeting, and its all good to go.However I do feel the pain others feel, when we pay alot of money for them. Have a great day....


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

This reminds me of a little Truism that I used to hear a lot, "R-T-R isn't". 

And yet there are many hobbyist's who expect to take an R-T-R piece of equipment out of the box, put it on the track, and start running it. And then they wonder why they are having problems.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Manufacturers, especially the sloppy ones, just *love* talk like this.

Good luck.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

LateStarter said:


> Manufacturers, especially the sloppy ones, just *love* talk like this.
> 
> Good luck.


Yeah I was just thinking that


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

fs2k4pilot said:


> And frankly, we should have sufficient tinkering skills to solve issues ourselves.


Yep...
And I wanna' be there when you tell that to a 14 year-old who's dad just bought him an HO loco that skips, stops, and won't stay running.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Someone called me negative on another thread. Negative would be bashing without cause. 300 dollars is a days wages out of my pocket. 4 Genesis and 2 ran. 50% failure rate is pathetic period. Ironic that the 2 with no issues were bought used albeit with next to no use..... probably fixed before I got them. I still have another one to fix. Is it a premium line or not? Then they need to step up.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

It's not _always_ the manufacturer's fault...
Like when (un-named) sent me an InterMountain boxcar in a _mailing envelope_.
The box was 80% crushed, and the car was slightly damaged.
They replied to my email with a shrug, and said "boxes aren't covered under warranty".

That kind of response has no place in our hobby.
I resolved the issue, (after much griping) but I learned a lesson.

The same lesson can be learned about manufacturers who package defects.
"Buyer beware" is a phrase out of the 1950's. Unfortunately, it may still be appropriate today.

Too bad. Hard earned money should be well spent... not gambled.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

alaska railroad said:


> I totally agree with you all the way. I too have had issues with companies. No matter the cost or brand of the loco we buy, we will always have some that don't run perfect out of the box. I get upset with locos at times too, but like you most of the time a little cleaning, and a little tweeting, and its all good to go.However I do feel the pain others feel, when we pay alot of money for them. Have a great day....


I got it running. I never complained about its looks, how it pulled or how it sounds, I complained when it didn't run which in turn had no sound. I would expect it to run and have sound lol. It pissed me off that it annoyed my 6 year old and therefore we had no steam to run. He can negotiate a 64 car coal train with 3 GP30s around a roughly 35' * 70 foot layout using a DT402R throttle



thedoc said:


> This reminds me of a little Truism that I used to hear a lot, "R-T-R isn't".
> 
> And yet there are many hobbyist's who expect to take an R-T-R piece of equipment out of the box, put it on the track, and start running it. And then they wonder why they are having problems.


If they want to sell me pre-assembled crap, please let me have it in a kit so I can at least blame myself for the poor quality control. I get checking wheels for proper gauge and checking coupler height(should not be an issue if you present it as R-T-R though now should it?)



LateStarter said:


> Manufacturers, especially the sloppy ones, just *love* talk like this.
> 
> Good luck.


Isn't that the truth. I don't mind paying for things, but I still shop sales, deals, clearance items and use coupons. I've gotten bad food and calling or emailing has gotten me a response and a voucher for said product with the exception of one time. There is no excuse to accept shoddy crap whether it be planes, trains, automobiles, electronics and etc.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

fs2k4pilot said:


> I've got over a dozen BLI engines. They all run very well. I had one decoder fry when the locomotive hard-shorted on a turnout frog, and another that just fried itself, and BLI replaced all necessary parts under their warranty.
> 
> My Athearn Genesis engines all run well, but the diesels all use lightbulbs which will eventually burn out.
> 
> ...


MTH has a lot of issues as well and people keep buying them. Athearn Genesis stuff has had a multitude of problems as well. People keep putting up with crap, so you get crappy products with shoddy quality control.

Premium products, premium quality, premium prices or GTFO:laugh:

I've done everything to modify the code in ecm's for tuning cars, to building engines, transmissions, porting cylinder heads, window installation, dryer overhaul, bathroom remodels and custom wiring harnesses for fuel injected engine swaps.

When I drop $300 on a "premium" product I expect it to work as a premium product.

People ***** whine and moan about getting people in the hobby. Say this happened to someone clueless, at my local hobby shop that has been in business over 50 years, the owner has to show people philips and flathead screwdrivers because they DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not make this up. He/she just bought a pile of junk and if it was for them or their kid, thats not exactly a strong point.

Also, I am not talking about just one engine. 4 Genesis locomotives, 2 bought new, 2 bought used. The used ones have caused me zero problems(willing to bet prior owner sorted them out).

DDA40X has suffered from everything from bad connections at the board to a truck pickup wire that broke off. It is now layed up due to the rear truck gear cap likes to spontaneously remove itself upon occasion.

2 out of 4 = 50% , that is pathetic.

So its $500+ worth of paperweights, premium my ***

This is the kind of crap like on the Model Railroader forums where everyone defends manufacturers when they drop turd after turd.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

3.8TransAM said:


> If they want to sell me pre-assembled crap, please let me have it in a kit so I can at least blame myself for the poor quality control. I get checking wheels for proper gauge and checking coupler height(should not be an issue if you present it as R-T-R though now should it?)


Real model railroaders know that R-T-R stands for pre-assembled and they also know that you don't expect a piece of equipment to be track ready out-of-the-box. Toy train runners think it means Ready to Run as in track ready, they get what they deserve.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Hmmmm...
I guess I'm just a toy train runner.
And when I buy a Walthers R-T-R boxcar, I deserve to get crap out of the box.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I am with you 3.8. You pay 300 it should run and sound its butt off. I have tons of
old blue box locos and really I don't remember any of them not running, but I have
not bought ANY modern athearn. Lots of problems, most are minor problems, but
just bug you a lot. A locomotive that doesn't run isn't good. I have bought 2 BLI
articulated steam and 1 diesel and have felt I got my money's worth. To me they
are precision machines. I am sure people have had problems with a BLI, but you
don't hear about many.


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## trnfn69 (Jan 21, 2012)

Reading your story of issues with the genesis line makes me glad the order I have for 2 es44ac's somehow got lost in space before I had put any money towards them. Sorry to hear of the lousy product you've received.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

The high prices of some of this stuff is a lot of the reason pesky problems burn a guy so bad. I can remember vividly having problems with Athearn blue box when they were brand new, and I'm talking about the older ones with cast trucks. Nearly every F unit leaned to one side because the L tab in the trucks wasn't square, the cast flywheels on the "SW 1500" (SW 7) would hit the inside of the hood and make all kinds of noise, and nearly every SD 9 had twisted trucks that would drive you batty! Oh, and let's not forget that motor contact strip and the curved headlight wiper that sometimes would give you wonder lighting, cause you wondered when it would work.
Contrast to European manufacturers of the time, you could see photos in RMC and MR of the test tracks at Marklin for example. Track arrays with curves and turnouts and trays full of locomotives waiting their turn at testing.
Even AHM stated in their warranty that ALL locomotives were track tested at the factory, and I believe that.
So, maybe today they are tested, maybe they aren't, but you can bet that the sub assemblies are. The huge difference is in the old days it just had to run down the track well. Today it has to do that, ring the dinger, flash the lights, talk to us, smoke, make coffee and who knows what else. It's hard to imagine there wouldn't be a few problems......
But I do agree that there should be a certain expectation of a certain level of performance, after all, they don't exactly give them away.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

thedoc said:


> Real model railroaders know that R-T-R stands for pre-assembled and they also know that you don't expect a piece of equipment to be track ready out-of-the-box. Toy train runners think it means Ready to Run as in track ready, they get what they deserve.


Real model railroader?:laugh:

I hope your joking..... Or better yet go randomly introduce yourself to people as a "real model railroader" and see what kind of street cred that gets you:stroke:

Believe me that there is not a thing in this hobby I cannot fix, build, rinse, wash and repeat. It's not rocket science. 

It also has no bearing if something comes preassembled and ready to run either. It should work as advertised. ESPECIALLY when it come to multi hundred dollar engines as is the norm nowadays.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

3.8TransAM said:


> Real model railroader?:laugh:
> 
> I hope your joking..... Or better yet go randomly introduce yourself to people as a "real model railroader" and see what kind of street cred that gets you:stroke:


Now-now...
You shouldn't talk to a 'real model railroader' like that.
BTW, I wonder what a 'real' one looks like.
Never mind -- us 'toy train runners' don't need to know.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

3.8TransAM said:


> Real model railroader?
> I hope your joking..... Or better yet go randomly introduce yourself to people as a "real model railroader" and see what kind of street cred that gets you


Thankyou, but I don't need your street cred, I don't live on the street. And I'm not here to win a popularity contest, which is probably a good thing. 

Once I was at an auction, and the auctioneer was making up sets to sell that consisted of a low priced Bachmann or TYCO engine a few similar cars and then he would throw in some vintage Mantua or Athearn cars. I finally called out that he should stop mixing the good stuff with the junk. I got some dirty looks from some others in the crowd, but the auctioneer only said he expected me to bid on the lots he put up for auction, he didn't need to ask what I meant, he knew.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

FYI I occasionally buy a car with talgo trucks because of the unique lettering, with the full intention of converting it to body mounted couplers and good trucks.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

thedoc said:


> Once I was at an auction...


Thanks for your service.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

thedoc said:


> Thankyou, but I don't need your street cred, I don't live on the street. And I'm not here to win a popularity contest, which is probably a good thing.
> 
> Once I was at an auction, and the auctioneer was making up sets to sell that consisted of a low priced Bachmann or TYCO engine a few similar cars and then he would throw in some vintage Mantua or Athearn cars. I finally called out that he should stop mixing the good stuff with the junk. I got some dirty looks from some others in the crowd, but the auctioneer only said he expected me to bid on the lots he put up for auction, he didn't need to ask what I meant, he knew.


There is no such thing as a "real model railroader", you're either a model railroader or you're not.

You can call it anything you like but at the end of the day on here, its grown men playing with toy trains however you like to dissect it:appl:


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

C'mon Doc! Ain't we all friends here?


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

time warp said:


> C'mon Doc! Ain't we all friends here?


I'm trying, just ask my wife, she says I'm very trying.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

FYI, I've been attending York since '79 and I've seen many different types of toy train runners, plus I was reading my fathers RMC's from the '60's so I have seen all types of modelers. There is a distinct difference between those who try to build a model railroad and those who just want to run toy trains, and I don't say there is anything wrong with either, but to try to lump them all together is wrong. I just ask that people who collect and run model trains, be honest about what they are trying to do.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I guess, but I'm the guy who did build a large folded dogbone, wide curve behemoth of a layout and super detailed everything. Cutting edge all the way, at the time.
Now I just run my toy trains and I'm having more fun than ever. Even ditched the Kadees. I'm on the less is more plan.
Still rooting for the detail guys, and I love to see ultra detailed layouts, but I can't do it anymore and I'm okay with that.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

time warp said:


> I guess, but I'm the guy who did build a large folded dogbone, wide curve behemoth of a layout and super detailed everything. Cutting edge all the way, at the time.
> Now I just run my toy trains and I'm having more fun than ever. Even ditched the Kadees. I'm on the less is more plan.
> Still rooting for the detail guys, and I love to see ultra detailed layouts, but I can't do it anymore and I'm okay with that.


It's not about super detail, it's about simulating a transportation system, or just running as many different trains as possible on loops. There are a few who simulate a city loop that connects several different railroads, and that can be a model railroad, but when each different train is on a different loop and often has one of each kind of car in the consist, that is a toy train and not a railroad, and it doesn't matter how well detailed, or not, each piece of equipment is.


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

The TIME factor is the killer of layouts. I went absolutely batcrap crazy and now have 500 sq feet to fill! This was not foreseen! I wanted a BIG table to run on and it is THE proverbial "double edged sword", now I got this giant expanse of MDF stretching to the horizon with some track on it. What to DO? LOL! I'm leaning towards a combination of the above described, "toy train" and "rail road". I'll build a "rail road" and run "toy trains" upon it.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I don't want to have a big layout anymore. I've had them in years past but the maintenance and construction gets in the way of having fun. That's why we are back to a 4 x 8 that's really crowded but we can keep it going and enjoy ourselves.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Chip said:


> The TIME factor is the killer of layouts. I went absolutely batcrap crazy and now have 500 sq feet to fill! This was not foreseen! I wanted a BIG table to run on and it is THE proverbial "double edged sword", now I got this giant expanse of MDF stretching to the horizon with some track on it. What to DO? LOL! I'm leaning towards a combination of the above described, "toy train" and "rail road". I'll build a "rail road" and run "toy trains" upon it.


Track and turnouts are usually the problem, if you don't want to have "too much" limit how much track you lay down and build scenery to fill the rest. Usually scenery can be built that needs very little maintenance.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

I have about 2000 sq ft and I'm planning on a lot of space for scenery, and enough empty floor space for people to get around without tripping over each other. I am also planning a very simple track plan, with mostly running from one point to another, and very few turnouts.


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

LateStarter said:


> Yep...
> And I wanna' be there when you tell that to a 14 year-old who's dad just bought him an HO loco that skips, stops, and won't stay running.


I routinely tell that to the junior members at the club that I belong to. And if they can't figure it out, I'm more than happy to teach them about their locomotive. It's my way of encouraging them to learn more about the hobby.

Model trains are quite simple, DCC and other control systems aside. A 14 year old kid (and his dad for certain) ought to be able to figure out how one works.


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

3.8TransAM said:


> MTH has a lot of issues as well and people keep buying them. Athearn Genesis stuff has had a multitude of problems as well. People keep putting up with crap, so you get crappy products with shoddy quality control.
> 
> Premium products, premium quality, premium prices or GTFO:laugh:
> 
> ...


I have seven Athearn Genesis engines, all worked properly out of the box, even the old one with the MRC decoder, although that engine later had expensive problems when that POS decoder died. Wayne, Athearn's repair guy, did everything he could think of and everything I asked of him to try and fix the thing, including selling me an entire replacement tender, and an entire replacement drivetrain as well. That engine now ticks along like a metronome. Other than that, I had to replace the motor of my FEF-3 after a while, no big deal, and my AG Gevo has burned out headlights. Again, no big deal, I just run it as the middle engine of the lash-up.

As for your DDA40X, call Wayne and spend three bucks on a new gear tower cap. Wires going to the trucks of any locomotive will eventually break. It's a mechanical certainty. I've had it happen on half a dozen different steamers. A minute spent with a soldering iron usually fixes the problem.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Aren't metronomes those little guys that hang out on commuter trains?:laugh:


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

fs2k4pilot said:


> I have seven Athearn Genesis engines, all worked properly out of the box, even the old one with the MRC decoder, although that engine later had expensive problems when that POS decoder died. Wayne, Athearn's repair guy, did everything he could think of and everything I asked of him to try and fix the thing, including selling me an entire replacement tender, and an entire replacement drivetrain as well. That engine now ticks along like a metronome. Other than that, I had to replace the motor of my FEF-3 after a while, no big deal, and my AG Gevo has burned out headlights. Again, no big deal, I just run it as the middle engine of the lash-up.
> 
> As for your DDA40X, call Wayne and spend three bucks on a new gear tower cap. Wires going to the trucks of any locomotive will eventually break. It's a mechanical certainty. I've had it happen on half a dozen different steamers. A minute spent with a soldering iron usually fixes the problem.


The point still remains these were new out of the box with relatively little run time on them at all.

They shouldn't be pieces of crap straight out of the gate.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

fs2k4pilot said:


> I have seven Athearn Genesis engines, all worked properly out of the box, even the old one with the MRC decoder, although that engine later had expensive problems when that POS decoder died. Wayne, Athearn's repair guy, did everything he could think of and everything I asked of him to try and fix the thing, including selling me an entire replacement tender, and an entire replacement drivetrain as well. That engine now ticks along like a metronome. Other than that, I had to replace the motor of my FEF-3 after a while, no big deal, and my AG Gevo has burned out headlights. Again, no big deal, I just run it as the middle engine of the lash-up.
> 
> As for your DDA40X, call Wayne and spend three bucks on a new gear tower cap. Wires going to the trucks of any locomotive will eventually break. It's a mechanical certainty. I've had it happen on half a dozen different steamers. A minute spent with a soldering iron usually fixes the problem.


I think the point 3.8 is trying to make is why should he have to fiddle with something in this price range? 
I'll accept that when a mechanism reaches a certain level of complexity, things will inevitably need work - in time. It does seem that there are a lot of posts on this forum and others about MTH/BLI/Genesis locomotives needing work right out of the box. THAT, in my opinion, needs to change.

As for truck wires breaking, and it being a mechanical certainty - I have ancient Model Power locomotives that have come to me totally beat to crap, yet I have yet to see a broken truck wire in the lot! The things may be in pieces in a shoebox but the wires are holding on for eternity. :laugh:


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

JNXT 7707 said:


> I think the point 3.8 is trying to make is why should he have to fiddle with something in this price range?
> I'll accept that when a mechanism reaches a certain level of complexity, things will inevitably need work - in time. It does seem that there are a lot of posts on this forum and others about MTH/BLI/Genesis locomotives needing work right out of the box. THAT, in my opinion, needs to change.
> 
> As for truck wires breaking, and it being a mechanical certainty - I have ancient Model Power locomotives that have come to me totally beat to crap, yet I have yet to see a broken truck wire in the lot! The things may be in pieces in a shoebox but the wires are holding on for eternity. :laugh:


You said it nicely man!

You should get what you pay for, especially given the price range we are talking about.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

JNXT 7707 said:


> I think the point 3.8 is trying to make is why should he have to fiddle with something in this price range?
> I'll accept that when a mechanism reaches a certain level of complexity, things will inevitably need work - in time. It does seem that there are a lot of posts on this forum and others about MTH/BLI/Genesis locomotives needing work right out of the box. THAT, in my opinion, needs to change.


I'm not trying to justify or make excuses for a new item needing work to get it to operate properly, I'm just stating the way things are, and it's foolish to think that they aren't that way. I agree that a high priced item should be track ready and operate properly right out of the box, but many do not.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

*Case in point:*

Case in point:
This little gem was priced at $59 at Train World, and I bought it.
It runs flawlessly.

A week later I found another at a garage sale, (unopened) and bought it for $35.
It also runs flawlessly.

If a $60 loco can run without a hitch out of the box, why can't we expect that out of one that costs 3 or 4 times more?


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

LateStarter said:


> If a $60 loco can run without a hitch out of the box, why can't we expect that out of one that costs 3 or 4 times more?
> 
> View attachment 218578



I agree, but you need to make your feelings known to the manufacture, posting those opinions on a forum will only get you a few more people contacting the Mfg. and it won't effect the quality of the product.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

thedoc said:


> I'm not trying to justify or make excuses for a new item needing work to get it to operate properly, I'm just stating the way things are, and it's foolish to think that they aren't that way. I agree that a high priced item should be track ready and operate properly right out of the box, but many do not.


Right, I understand. 

I see the perspective of the manufacturers as well, in that with the current status quo of everything built in China, they have very little control over things. The product is built in one big batch, shipped to the US in a container, and sold to the public. These aren't old Blue Box locos that are relatively simple mechanisms, these are complex works of mechanical and electronic art...with equally complex detail and paint work. 
I don't doubt for a second that a good percentage of them have issues when they get to our end of the pipeline. 
It works economically for the manufacturers - "most" of the product is OK, and they save $$$$ by letting the consumer be the final quality control person. Some hobbyists are handy enough to fix a lot of what gets by. And worst case, just return and get a replacement loco. Or something like that.

Remember when locos came with an exploded diagram and a list of replacement parts (with prices!)? I don't think that happens anymore does it?


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## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

The issues with quality in model trains is widespread including most European brands (ROCO, Marklin etc.). My take on this is that if I am spending $80+ on sometime I expect it to work. Compare a $400 locomotive to a $400 TV. If the TV does not work, most people will not grab the screwdriver and multi-meter and figure out what is wrong, they demand a replacement period. I tend to buy items such as Mainline (Walthers), Trainman (Atlas) and Roundhouse because they usually work fine (at for me so far) and the prices are reasonable. I don't want to risk the price of new TV or computer on a super detailed dud. We need to explain that to the manufacturers. Manufacturers need to stand by what they sell or get out of the market.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

JNXT 7707 said:


> Right, I understand.
> 
> I see the perspective of the manufacturers as well, in that with the current status quo of everything built in China, they have very little control over things. The product is built in one big batch, shipped to the US in a container, and sold to the public. These aren't old Blue Box locos that are relatively simple mechanisms, these are complex works of mechanical and electronic art...with equally complex detail and paint work.
> I don't doubt for a second that a good percentage of them have issues when they get to our end of the pipeline.
> ...


The parts list and prices ended when Walthers sucked the Like Like out of Proto 2000...................

Funny you mention that because Scaletrains has posted video footage of them in China doing the quality control testing before final packaging for shipment of the Big Blow turbines


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

PhillipL said:


> The issues with quality in model trains is widespread including most European brands (ROCO, Marklin etc.). My take on this is that if I am spending $80+ on sometime I expect it to work. Compare a $400 locomotive to a $400 TV. If the TV does not work, most people will not grab the screwdriver and multi-meter and figure out what is wrong, they demand a replacement period. I tend to buy items such as Mainline (Walthers), Trainman (Atlas) and Roundhouse because they usually work fine (at for me so far) and the prices are reasonable. I don't want to risk the price of new TV or computer on a super detailed dud. We need to explain that to the manufacturers. Manufacturers need to stand by what they sell or get out of the market.


I think most of them do stand by what they sell. I've only ever had one loco that didn't work out of the box (a Bachmann Spectrum) and they sent me a brand new one, and paid for return shipping of the old. We (the hobbyists) are part of the problem, because we DO have some knowledge of how to clear up issues, so we DON'T do the right thing, which is to immediately exercise our rights under the warranty.

The only problem I see is when you get into one of those "It works fine" / "No it doesn't" disputes.

That said, model locomotives aren't directly comparable to TV's. A TV manufacturer or retailer can make up any "goodwill" compensation to a customer through volume, whereas hobby items are low-volume, high margin items.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

JNXT 7707 said:


> Remember when locos came with an exploded diagram and a list of replacement parts (with prices!)? I don't think that happens anymore does it?


I know that some manufacturers have those diagrams available now on-line....saves them even more money by not having to print and include them in the box......


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> I know that some manufacturers have those diagrams available now on-line....saves them even more money by not having to print and include them in the box......


I know, and sometimes I read what I have written and I think "who is that old curmudgeon anyway?" :laugh:

But I have to say it - c'mon man...for what we pay for any new loco not just the fancy ones - is a simple 8½x11 sheet of paper with a diagram on it too much to ask for?


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

JNXT 7707 said:


> I know, and sometimes I read what I have written and I think "who is that old curmudgeon anyway?" :laugh:
> 
> But I have to say it - c'mon man...for what we pay for any new loco not just the fancy ones - is a simple 8½x11 sheet of paper with a diagram on it too much to ask for?


Actually there is a lot involved in producing that 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper. 
The printing cost are not really that high, but getting the page laid out and ready will take some time. First an executive has to approve it and he gets paid. Then someone has to design it and he gets paid. Then a draftsman has to make the drawing and he gets paid. Then someone has to set the type and layout the page and he gets paid. No-one works for free, and finally it has to be printed and folded to fit the box, and some worker on the line has to put it in the box. Do you really think any of these people work for free? And a separate sheet has to be produced for each engine that is manufactured.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

thedoc said:


> Actually there is a lot involved in producing that 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper.
> The printing cost are not really that high, but getting the page laid out and ready will take some time. First an executive has to approve it and he gets paid. Then someone has to design it and he gets paid. Then a draftsman has to make the drawing and he gets paid. Then someone has to set the type and layout the page and he gets paid. No-one works for free, and finally it has to be printed and folded to fit the box, and some worker on the line has to put it in the box. Do you really think any of these people work for free? And a separate sheet has to be produced for each engine that is manufactured.


doc, I am retired from a printing agency - so yes, I am very much aware of what all would go into that piece of paper. 
Maybe I am misreading you, but it seems you think I am asking a bit much for them to go to all that trouble? If so, then we are definitely diverging on what I expect from a new locomotive purchase. 
I would assume that at some point in the process of designing the locomotive, there had to have been some drawings that a decent graphic artist could adapt to use in an exploded diagram? 
Would they not have to have a bigwig approve the online drawings? Would that approval be more expensive than one for a hard copy?
Aren't you paying these people anyway? I never got a penny more for approving something for printing - I was already there!
So I dunno, seems a little ridiculous. If you are producing a top-line HO scale locomotive and the cost of producing a sheet of paper with a diagram and parts list is prohibitive....


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Now the expense of printed paper makes for **** quality?

I love the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Anyhow on a side note, the boy wanted to run her at the club tonight since it was "fixed". So we set her up and put our 12 car streamliner behind it and ran the wheels off for an hour or so.

Nice to know its fixed at least.

On the MR forums, my bitching has at least helped another person WITH THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM, so I'm not the only one and I've helped someone else fixed theirs as well.

He also has a kid who is into trains with him be po'ed because theirs was also junk out of the box


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

JNXT 7707 said:


> doc, I am retired from a printing agency - so yes, I am very much aware of what all would go into that piece of paper.
> Maybe I am misreading you, but it seems you think I am asking a bit much for them to go to all that trouble? If so, then we are definitely diverging on what I expect from a new locomotive purchase.
> I would assume that at some point in the process of designing the locomotive, there had to have been some drawings that a decent graphic artist could adapt to use in an exploded diagram?
> Would they not have to have a bigwig approve the online drawings? Would that approval be more expensive than one for a hard copy?
> ...


I would say that we are almost even in education and experience, I have a teaching degree in Industrial Arts that includes drafting and printing, but I found out later that most of that was wrong. My wife has worked in the printing industry all her working life. I have worked as a draftsman, and in machine shops for several years. Add to that that I owned a hobby shop for 11 years, so I know a little about that aspect of the industry. I should add that working drawings for manufacture are a lot different that the sketch you would provide for a customer, I have found that even experienced machinists can't accurately read a drawing. As a result I always provided the information needed on a drawing, and didn't rely on the people in the shop to figure anything out.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

thedoc said:


> I would say that we are almost even in education and experience, I have a teaching degree in Industrial Arts that includes drafting and printing, but I found out later that most of that was wrong. My wife has worked in the printing industry all her working life. I have worked as a draftsman, and in machine shops for several years. Add to that that I owned a hobby shop for 11 years, so I know a little about that aspect of the industry. I should add that working drawings for manufacture are a lot different that the sketch you would provide for a customer, I have found that even experienced machinists can't accurately read a drawing. As a result I always provided the information needed on a drawing, and didn't rely on the people in the shop to figure anything out.


I have zero experience with hobby shops - and my heart has always gone out to those who do have a go at that. I'd probably never make it, I'd want to keep all the stock for myself:laugh:

I'll put this as simply as I can - I grew up in the era where this famous piece of paper we are talking about was just part and parcel of what you would see when you opened up a new locomotive box. Even now, if I'm lucky enough to find an old loco with all the packaging, it's cool to find it still stuffed in there with the warranty card and old MR magazine promo card.
And, I think you still find this even today with new Walther's passenger cars. 
Does it cost money to provide it? Yes! Is it absolutely necessary? I guess that depends on your customer base. These days most everything - even the manual for a new cell phone - seems to be online. I hate that too. Isn't it funny how you can have the same info in both an electronic and a hard copy but somehow the hard copy feels easier to use? And it's YOURS - you can lay it on the desk, put it in your pocket, file it with your 'stuff'. 
Could be the times are passing me by I suppose, but I'll still say that if you produce that diagram for online access, it wouldn't be that much bigger a step to print it and stick it in the box. 
And with that, I'll try to stop beating that dead horse hwell:


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

I don't have all that many locos, but I just checked, and all have an exploded view drawing in the box -- except for one... an Athearn Genesis GP40-2.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

JNXT 7707 said:


> Could be the times are passing me by I suppose, but I'll still say that if you produce that diagram for online access, it wouldn't be that much bigger a step to print it and stick it in the box


Well, you could find it on-line, and print it yourself and put it in the box.......

I know.....you are of the mind that it should be done by the manufacturer.....but if they won't do it, you could do it yourself.....

Just sayin'....


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

JNXT 7707 said:


> I have zero experience with hobby shops - and my heart has always gone out to those who do have a go at that. I'd probably never make it, I'd want to keep all the stock for myself:laugh:
> 
> I'll put this as simply as I can - I grew up in the era where this famous piece of paper we are talking about was just part and parcel of what you would see when you opened up a new locomotive box. Even now, if I'm lucky enough to find an old loco with all the packaging, it's cool to find it still stuffed in there with the warranty card and old MR magazine promo card.
> And, I think you still find this even today with new Walther's passenger cars.
> ...


When we got our new house built, our builder was like that, he preferred an actual check that he could hold and deposit, rather than just electronically transferring the money. I didn't find out about his preference till after the first transfer was made, since we were right at the credit union where the contracts were signed, there after I made sure to get a check and hand it to him for the rest of the payments.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

JNXT 7707 said:


> I'd want to keep all the stock for myself:laugh:


That was part of my problem, I would actually order some equipment with the sole purpose of keeping it for myself. I sold astronomical telescopes, and a few of them I found myself hoping they wouldn't sell, so that I could keep them for myself. One hobby shop owner I know has even said that you can't be a hobbyist and also be in the business.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Old_Hobo said:


> Well, you could find it on-line, and print it yourself and put it in the box.......
> 
> I know.....you are of the mind that it should be done by the manufacturer.....but if they won't do it, you could do it yourself.....
> 
> Just sayin'....


LOL...well in the interests of full disclosure that did occur to me after I wrote the post.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

thedoc said:


> When we got our new house built, our builder was like that, he preferred an actual check that he could hold and deposit, rather than just electronically transferring the money. I didn't find out about his preference till after the first transfer was made, since we were right at the credit union where the contracts were signed, there after I made sure to get a check and hand it to him for the rest of the payments.


That's funny, isn't it? I knew people at work who would refuse to have their paychecks electronically deposited into their account - they always wanted that piece of paper to hold, as if it 'proved' they were getting paid....even though they had to go to the bank to complete the process. 
Never could understand that way of thinking!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JNXT 7707 said:


> That's funny, isn't it? I knew people at work who would refuse to have their paychecks electronically deposited into their account - they always wanted that piece of paper to hold, as if it 'proved' they were getting paid....even though they had to go to the bank to complete the process.
> Never could understand that way of thinking!


Perhaps they're not going to report the full value of that piece of paper to the IRS... 

That theory covers the self-employed folks, but not the rest. I'd rather have my money at the bank when it opens on payday (mine actually goes in at about 3 am). In 32 years of having my paychecks electronically deposited, I've never had a problem.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

A long time ago I worked for an employer that paid you in cash - the full amount ans them as you walked down the table you had to pay back the taxes, insurance, SS, etc. so you got a real impression about all the deductions. The govt stepped in and stopped the practice.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> Perhaps they're not going to report the full value of that piece of paper to the IRS...
> 
> That theory covers the self-employed folks, but not the rest. I'd rather have my money at the bank when it opens on payday (mine actually goes in at about 3 am). In 32 years of having my paychecks electronically deposited, I've never had a problem.


No, in this particular case the employees that were insisting on a real check were just doing it to be stubborn. Later on, when the option of the real paper check was terminated and they were required to set up direct deposit, they insisted on a paper "stub" - something that was easily available online.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Well, tender is basically ruled out.

Does have issues still, less, but still there. Got it back out today and slowly going thru it.

Clearance the metal spring plate for the trailing truck to eliminate any contact there.

Lead truck I question still, need to draw out what would make a short and what would not. It has a lot of movement available and could conceivably driver or frame.

I did install the front coupler, kid wants to double head some steam. So trying to get it fixed for a Open House at the club this Thursday. 

I have found a few other threads on forums w/ identical issues to mine, so I know I am not the only one.

Also trying not to have to do a full disassembly, but I ran across the wiring issues w/ the motors in the Mikados. So that is a possibility if all else fails and tearing it down is needed.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

I trimmed the rear spring clip/mount for the trailing truck. Did find a way on curves w/ dip it may contact driver.

Lead truck I used some CA on the frame bottom to eliminate a place it looked like it has made contact. Temp. solution but good enough for diagnostic reasons.

I love this engine, but it pisses me off so badly Looks good, sounds good, pulls good, just needs to run good.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

So anyone with one with the same issue resolve it 100% yet?

Can't do much till I test it out tomorrow night.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

No more Junkesis?????????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe, hoping so!

I did what was mentioned above. Trimmed the rear spring mount for trailing truck and applied CA on the frame where the lead truck wheels made contact. (I only found the contact point by luck due to just catching it in the right spot with the right light on it). Is is the half circle cut from the frame above the leading wheels on the front truck.

It was either the front or rear causing the issues. Gut says it was front, but both are now eliminated.

Ran it at the club, westbound and eastbound as well as wrong way main both directions as well. No hiccups, no stutters, no cutouts, no stalls, nothing but a perfect running engine.

Its still ridiculous that I had to touch it at all for the price, but the damned thing is fixed.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

That's good news!

You're right...should have worked right for that price...but it's not the first one that's been bad off the bat...and it won't be the last either.....


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm glad to see you finally whipped it, I've had a few troublemakers myself.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Old_Hobo said:


> That's good news!
> 
> You're right...should have worked right for that price...but it's not the first one that's been bad off the bat...and it won't be the last either.....


 One down and one more Junkesis to fix. I have a DooDooA40X that likes to lose wiring contacts every time it runs and an exploding rear gear tower cap................... Quality is not something Athearns priority. Also 1 of 2 SDP45s needs to get gone thru kind of has a surge when its running.



time warp said:


> I'm glad to see you finally whipped it, I've had a few troublemakers myself.


I carried a small flat head the entire time last night and today. I told the other members I would either be poking it to try and see what is wrong or I was going to stake it in place permanently on the layout

I deem it good after the amount of running I've done with it in the last two days. 

Crappy part is now the kid wants to take the F units, not more steam engines...... Can't win.....


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