# Lionel Mogul update ?



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Have the Lionel execs at York given any updates on the potential fix for the Moguls ?

Bill


----------



## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

so far no one on any train forums I know of has mentioned it!
I'll bet they would rather leave that discussion alone or maybe those owning one and at the show have spoken to the lionel reps at York on this issue and are not sharing the information.

its sad that nothing positive has been announced yet as seven months of owning a defective product is not exactly great PR!


----------



## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

I sent my Class A back to them around that time everyone did and well...

Dean said this to me on 4/4/18:

Still trying to keep up
Lost our high end tech and I am doing the high end repairs myself, slow going...

My loco was sent back around the Feb 25th- March 1st. Im not in a hurry I got plenty of stuff to run other than being down 3 other locos. Fun time for me 


Timothy Lewis
Writer, Social Media Director And Human Resources Director at Railroading In America Magazine
Vice President of Lewis Locomotive Works


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Is this problem with Lionel locos confined to certain types?
Have problems become more prevalent recently?
What problems are appearing on cheaper locos such as 
ones in sets?

I have three TMCC locos that were all bought used. 
All three seemed to work very well but I just liked
transformer control probably because I was used to it.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I believe the issue with the Mogul is unique to just the Mogul. Lionel changed the innards on the steamer and apparently did not do enough testing on the new design. Anyways there was suppose to be a fix to the problem in March but that was not successful so it was back to the drawing board.

I have the Weyerhaeuser Mogul that was from the first release about 4 years ago before the innards change and it runs perfectly.

Bill


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Thank you.
It sounds as if the biggest problem is an acknowledgement that there is a problem.
I have never contacted Lionel about anything.


----------



## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Lionel has acknowledged the problem to the point of offering free shipping both ways to get the problem fixed. As far as I know, though, they haven't come up with a fix yet. According to the forums they thought they had one but it didn't work.

For me, and I was interested in this engine, the sticking point is how many dealers are offering these for sale with no warnings, notices, nothing letting the purchaser know what they're getting into. I've gone to 4 major retailers and added them to my cart just to see. All of them were more than willing to take my money with no mention of an issue. 

My next concern is how many of these loco's will get fixed. If Lionel built 1500 units, are they going to get 1500 "repair kits", or, which seems more likely, are they going to get 500 and hope that no other loco's come in for repair?

Lastly, if the fix becomes too involved, requiring major re-work to the loco, will Lionel just try to hope time makes everyone forget about it? It's very easy for them to silence any negative comments in the O-gauge world. This is probably the first time I've been subject to an environment that I don't trust anyone in the supply chain to do the right thing.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Thank you.
Now I am not sure if I have ever heard exactly what the problem is with this loco.
What is it and does it affect every one of this model?


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

rogruth said:


> Thank you.
> Now I am not sure if I have ever heard exactly what the problem is with this loco.
> What is it and does it affect every one of this model?


I have not stayed very close to the problem, but I recall things centered around poor/jerky slow-speed operation and gears binding. Apparently the drive-train was redesigned -- exactly why isn't widely known, because the prior TMCC and conventional units worked like a charm.

I purchased two of these little jewels and immediately returned them to the dealer unopened when I read about the problems. And about a month or so ago, I purchased two of the TMCC units brand new from Grzyboski Trains who had just received a rather large estate collection. The only minor downside was the earlier Mogul units had 2 chuffs per revolution instead of 4 -- which doesn't bother me one iota, given other railsounds also occurring on the layout.

I'm still holding out hope for those folks who already own the new Legacy units, but in good conscience I wouldn't recommend buying one of the new Legacy units until you know with 100% certainty that Lionel has fixed the problem. Better yet, buy a TMCC version. They run GREAT with the Legacy CAB2!

David


----------



## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

At the TCA museum on Wednesday, after the Lionel’s presentation, Lionel took questions. They were pummeled with questions and complaints regarding poor quality. Ryan said they still haven’t figured out the Mogul. They said they think most of the defects we are seeing are as a result of the packaging not adequately protecting the product from China to your doorstep. They said they were going to work on a new sturdier packages. They also said every year they are producing 1,000 new sku’s (items), and wlll never be perfect even through they strive to be.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Craignor said:


> They also said every year they are producing 1,000 new sku’s (items), and wlll never be perfect even through they strive to be.


Maybe they should produce less SKU's, and make them higher quality!


----------



## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

No dog in this fight.

Gotta agree with GRJ.

And, I’m calling BS on Lionel’s package statement. I’m hoping attendees made that comment aloud and known to Lionel. 

It’s been a **** show for the last few years and they’ve had ample opportunities to fix QC. 

Mogul owners are in for a long fight it appears!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Fortunately, I didn't buy the Mogel either.


----------



## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Maybe they should produce less SKU's, and make them higher quality!


Absolutely!


----------



## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Fortunately, I didn't buy the Mogel either.


Me neither, thank goodness,


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

As far as I saw, there were no Lionel executives in the booth at York when I was there Thursday and a brief half-hour visit on Friday, which isn't unusual. Ryan and Dave have become the face of Lionel for their consumer base, but I don't think they call many shots. They're good guys at heart, but the executives and bean-counters are the ones ruining the company... and they seldom show up at York with the regularity that Mike Wolf does for MTH.

I overhead one of the Lionel reps at the booth emphasizing they're producing a record number of products this year -- as if that's supposed to impress people. And then shortly after that, I too was told about packaging being the reason for the QC problems. I pointed out nicely that Atlas-O's CZ packaging for 7 years appears identical to Lionel's recent passenger car packaging, and I experienced NONE of the problems I encountered recently with Lionel's 21" passenger cars vs the Atlas-O passenger cars over multiple years of production. And all I got was a blank stare, like they didn't know how to respond to that.

As far as I'm concerned, the packaging comment is BS. How does poor packaging account for the word "Pacific" missing from one of Aaron's Union Pacific passenger cars? And his wasn't the only one like that. Likewise, how can the exposed wiring in some of the StationSound diners (only some liveries -- not all of the roadnames) be blamed on packaging, when it's obvious a plastic interior wall was missed during the assembly process? And lastly, how can packaging explain the cheap materials used on the new couplers causing trains to randomly uncouple? Well, it CAN'T! 

But as I was told by OGR's former publisher (who made it clear he didn't know what he was talking about), these -- and several other problems -- were all just "minor issues" that didn't warrant bringing to light in "his" online forum for fear of losing ad/sponsor revenue from Lionel. Yet here we have Lionel digging themselves deeper into a hole with silly explanations that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

This is perhaps THE one thing that concerns me most about Lionel these days. The execs either think their consumer base is very gullible, or the execs spinning the party line just don't smell what they're shoveling. Perhaps both! But things just don't add up, and the result is folks begin to see through the nonsense and loose confidence along the way.

On another note, I did speak with Dave about future American Freedom Train cars, and he indicated a general plan with no specifics to continue the train. But NOT within the next TWO catalogs. So we'll be waiting a bit to "run" the train, since the original offering is noticeably incomplete without an observation car. Oh well, we waited SEVEN years for Atlas-O to produce the CZ observation car. So hopefully Lionel won't keep AFT enthusiasts waiting THAT long!!!

David


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> The only minor downside was the earlier Mogul units had 2 chuffs per revolution instead of 4 -- which doesn't bother me one iota, given other railsounds also occurring on the layout.
> 
> 
> David


This is my fix for 2 chuffs. About 15 minutes on my lathe and $0.00 cost.
Actually it is fine with two chuffs due to the small diameter drivers. I debated swapping cams but had a few minutes and decided to see if this would work. Works like a charm and even gives four puffs. Stock two lobe on the left.
Legacy, schmegacy, who needs it.









Pete


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> This is my fix for 2 chuffs. About 15 minutes on my lathe and $0.00 cost.


Not many of us have a lathe and the skills to use it.


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It could be done with a drill, hacksaw, and file but probably not in 15 minutes, maybe close to that though.

More time consuming is removing the siderods, pressing off a wheel, then reinstalling the wheel properly quartered.*


*the fine print


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> *"reinstalling the wheel properly quartered"*
> 
> *the fine print*


That should be in bold!


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Maybe they should produce less SKU's, and make them higher quality!


Maybe they're trying to SKU their customers!


----------



## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

I too noticed that there was NO Lionel management at the booth. Very disappointing as I had some very pointed questions I wanted answered. Their corporate direction is dubious at best, and is increasingly alienating their core consumer base. Apparently Reagan was the only guy holding the line on QC.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Volphin said:


> I too noticed that there was NO Lionel management at the booth. Very disappointing as I had some very pointed questions I wanted answered. Their corporate direction is dubious at best, and is increasingly alienating their core consumer base. Apparently Reagan was the only guy holding the line on QC.


Sounds to me that they realize that they are in trouble with a large group of model railroaders and chose not to visit York at this time. They may be smarter than we think.


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn View Post
Maybe they should produce less SKU's said:


> Maybe they're trying to SKU their customers!


I certainly feel SKU'ed. You would think that after informing me that the fix was available in mid March and accepting my Mogul for repair, that they would contact me to tell me there is an additional delay. I had to find out from the forum. Besides Quality, Customer Service is not high on their priority list.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

rogruth said:


> Sounds to me that they realize that they are in trouble with a large group of model railroaders and chose not to visit York at this time. They may be smarter than we think.


The CEO should have been at York to make a statement on the Mogul. Lionel should offer a refund if repairs are not started by end of April.

Bill


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

From what I can say is Dave Olson is working it, but also has other duties. What I can't say is the Chinese factory that produce this engine really screwed the pooch on this one. 

I haven't seen my engine since November.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

PatKn said:


> . . . Customer Service is not high on their priority list.


I have seen little evidence in the last year that they understand what it is.


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> I have seen little evidence in the last year that they understand what it is.


your comment misses the mark. Working with Dave Olson on the Mogul issues I know he cares, I know the people at Lionel care. The owners of Lionel who are not giving the employees the resources to do things right are the real problem here.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

superwarp1 said:


> your comment misses the mark. Working with Dave Olson on the Mogul issues I know he cares, I know the people at Lionel care. The owners of Lionel who are not giving the employees the resources to do things right are the real problem here.


No, I don't think so - I stand by what I said. Guys like Dave Olsen _work_ for Lionel. They aren't Lionel. Lionel's executive management is "Lionel." They set policy, company posture toward customers, policy and priority for issues like the Mogul, etc. They don't man the booth at York, and they don't give guys like Dave Olsen the resources and support he needs, and they clearly have not made your, or my, or any other Mogul a real priority. 

I feel for Dave, too. Gotta be frustrating.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

The Mogul disaster and shoddy workmanship of the 21 inch passenger cars has really hurt Lionel's ability to communicate to their customer base. Dave Olson should have been releasing weekly updates on the status of the potential fix for the Mogul and allowed folks that purchased defective passenger cars a full refund.

Bill


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Maybe the the company that "owns" Lionel would rather close it for some, to me, strange business reason. Seems as though they don't care what happens to the company reputation.


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Someone pointed out over at OGR that Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel but one of their principals, the CFO, took over ownership. It was at that time that he demanded Lionel cut costs and staff by 20% and sell off the archives. It appears to have started a downward slide that Lionel may not be able to recover from.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Someone pointed out over at OGR that Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel but one of their principals, the CFO, took over ownership. It was at that time that he demanded Lionel cut costs and staff by 20% and sell off the archives. It appears to have started a downward slide that Lionel may not be able to recover from.
> 
> ....


Pete, I can tell you from my former days in Corporate America (which, by the way, I don't miss one iota).... talking with most C-level executives is like talking a completely different language from the way we talk among ourselves here. Until you need to do it, it's very hard to describe. And it gets old real fast. Certainly wasn't my cup of tea. 

David


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Norton said:


> Someone pointed out over at OGR that Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel but one of their principals, the CFO, took over ownership. It was at that time that he demanded Lionel cut costs and staff by 20% and sell off the archives. It appears to have started a downward slide that Lionel may not be able to recover from.
> 
> Pete


Interesting, never heard about that sale. Checked Bloomberg and there is no mention of Guggenheim divesting itself of Lionel.

Bill


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> No, I don't think so - I stand by what I said. Guys like Dave Olsen _work_ for Lionel. They aren't Lionel. Lionel's executive management is "Lionel." They set policy, company posture toward customers, policy and priority for issues like the Mogul, etc. They don't man the booth at York, and they don't give guys like Dave Olsen the resources and support he needs, and they clearly have not made your, or my, or any other Mogul a real priority.
> 
> I feel for Dave, too. Gotta be frustrating.


I can respect that, as long as you are not blaming the rank and file. I'll agree it's upper management and the hedge fund or who ever owns Lionel for the lack of customer support.


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Dave Olson just posted this on the OGR site. Looks like I'm not going to see my engine for a while yet. 

The issue is the gears. Waiting for the factory to make new samples since the "fix" run did not fix the issue.
The motor bracket and gears are different than the TMCC and conventional versions.
I refuse to give up on this engine.

Dave Olson
Director of Engineering
Lionel LLC


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

At least Dave finally spelled out the problem. Disappointing in that they are so utterly dependent on a Chinese factory to come up with a fix. They don't even have a prototype shop either in house or in the area that can provide them with a solution.
Imagine when JLC found a problem he could tell the designer to fix it and it would either get a new design or the engineer would walk down to the machine shop and show them where they screwed up and have new part made by the next day.

Pete


----------



## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

I would have thought by now that about every gear in the industry has been made. Between Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Williams, and all the aftermarket upgrade suppliers both for toy trains and other hobbies that a ready-made gear would be available.

I'm still afraid that over time, Lionel will "give up" on this engine. Hope not, but I just don't have much faith in Lionel anymore.


----------



## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Do not have that engine but curious how long has it been since they have been trying to fix the problem?


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

The best think Lionel could do is bite the bullet and offer to buy back the locos and pay for the return shipping.

Bill


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dieseler said:


> Do not have that engine but curious how long has it been since they have been trying to fix the problem?



November


----------



## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Thanks Superwarp just read elsewhere it was found to be a gear problem.


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I have invested good money into this engine. It is paid in full in good green currency and it sits at Lionel waiting for a fix. There are people worse off than me. Dealers who bought these and can't sell them or have unhappy customers. The following was posted on OGR. This poor dealer not only paid for the engines but paid import/export fees and is now paying storage. This "simple" problem is affecting a lot of people in different ways and will result in a lot of lost confidence and eventually business, for Lionel.



> Dave:
> the problem is that I am a Canadian dealer who imported these to sell to my customers, then I could not get an answer from Lionel if they were to issue a call tag to a Canadian address, so I imported my three engines back into the USA at the warehouse facility where they have been since middle of March and this costs me a monthly storage fee. Since Lionel wont issue the call tag as there is apparently no room at your facility to store these while you wait for the parts, you can see why I get a bit frustrated. I have faith that Lionel will fix the problem in due course. I hope you will keep us advised when we can call for the pick up tag


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Yep, the Canadian Dealer is getting screwed big time. Lionel should have to reimburse the dealer for his additional expenses.

Like I have stated many times, UPS really loves all those Lionel returns, continuous revenue rolling into the UPS coffers.

Bill


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I gave up on mine long ago. Not sure how long - I had one when they first were released: I like smaller steamers and this looked like a good one. It looked nice too, a really good little steamer. Mine ran very roughly - shuddering, and sometimes stalling in reverse. To me it was clearly a mechanical issue, not any electronics. Lionel said to wait to send it back. I went ahead and took it apart and I concluded (maybe incorrectly) that it had binding gears near the motor, but could nothing to improve it. 

To avoid what I thought would be a festering, annoying problem that would keep coming back and draw out for months or more, somewhere along the line I just scrapped it for parts. Stuff like this tends to really really honk me off, so I got rid of the problem and just moved on.


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dieseler said:


> Thanks Superwarp just read elsewhere it was found to be a gear problem.


It's more than a gear problem.

The original issues was the damn Chinese factory changed the gear ratio so low the RCMC (is that right?) couldn't handle it. Also the excess play in the front axle(where the traction tire is) and the side rods. Also the traction tires being to thick.

So when Dave found all these issues, he had a bushing to take up the slop in the side rods and wheel, new axle with gear and new motor with worm gear with a high gear ratio(requiring reprogramming of the RCMC board, the reason this fix can't be done at home). made and sent to Lionel.

Turns out the damn Chinese factory made crappy gears hence the issue Dave is having now, or at the least what he thinks is wrong.

The mogul and my ten wheeler have the traction tire on the front set of driving wheels. I need to ask Dave why they did that. You would figure the traction tires should be in the back where most of the weight is.

Anyway you are all up to date.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

I wish we had a clearer understanding of how Lionel assigns projects to its overseas Chinese factory (or factories). Clearly the factory who manufactured the Brass Hybrid steamer did a fantastic job by all reports -- even better than Lionel's last VisionLine GG-1 (whose box was labeled a GG-1 steam locomotive  among other issues with the product itself).

For whatever reason, it APPEARS Lionel chooses to manage its overseas factories "remotely". I have no inside knowledge of what's in place to ensure good QC of individual products. But based on what we're seeing with recent products delivered, any kind of on-site factory supervision by Lionel personnel is non-existent. If that's not the case, then that's even more a problem if somebody from Lionel is actually over there and we're still seeing unsatisfactory results. 

I'd have a difficult time believing we'd even have these Mogul issues if Lionel would closely monitor projects the way Scott Mann does with his 3rd Rail and GGD products. It seems that Scott visits his Chinese factory at least every 6 weeks or so, and sometimes may even be once per month.

Even with close supervision, stuff happens. But Lionel's apparent lack of close supervision is almost inviting stuff to happen. And by the time containers of product arrive in NC, it's TOO LATE!!!

A few years back, Lionel offered refunds to consumers who purchased the Legacy Pennsy S-2 Turbine locomotive, when moisture inside the foam liner began to show rust effects on some locomotives and even the staples on product owners manual. I was one such customer who experienced that first-hand. But I will say this: the decision to offer refunds came quickly, and I received a refund check within a few weeks of returning my locomotive to Lionel. For the most part, I believe a good portion of that production run was reportedly scrapped. However, some units were offered at a huge discount (as "refurbished units") during Lionel's annual warehouse sale that year. 

When we compare the short time-frame that full refund checks for the Pennsy S2 Turbine were received vs. the lengthy period Lionel is keeping Mogul customers in limbo this time remains a bit of a mystery to me.  My confidence in Lionel these days has reached an all-time low, which is why I returned both Legacy Locomotives I purchased last October/November. Yes... I needed to pay return shipping. And the locomotive I purchased (a Daylight AC9) at the same dealer to mitigate leaving him stuck with two questionable product locomotives cost me a few extra dollars. But in the long run, I considered myself ahead of the game, since I avoided all the ensuing headaches surrounding the Legacy Mogul in the past 7+ months. At this stage of the game, had I kept my Moguls I'd be really pushing hard for a refund by now.

David


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Can't argue with you Dave.

Surprisingly I've purchased three locomotives within four months made by Lionel which has never happen for me before. Usually I'm one a year. But anyhow my NH ten wheeler is flawless and my Maine Central mikado which was produced after the mogul is flawless also, so go figure.

Guessing both are proven designs and no re-engineering required. The Mogul on the other hand was redesigned from the TMCC version of a decade ago? The Chinese factory did not produce what Lionel designed/engineered. As in the early pre-production samples do not have the issues the rest of us have.

As stated myself and many of you I will not be pre-ordering any more Lionel engines until the reviews are in.

Sadly if Lionel's next brass hybrid(announcement due this summer) and it's a must have for me. I'll have to pass. Hope there are a few extras out there if it's a good loco.


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> It's more than a gear problem.
> 
> The original issues was the damn Chinese factory changed the gear ratio so low the RCMC (is that right?) couldn't handle it. Also the excess play in the front axle(where the traction tire is) and the side rods. Also the traction tires being to thick.
> 
> ...


That explains why when someone early on swapped the rods with ones from an early version it improved running but not perfectly.
As for the front wheelset traction tire the early ones have the same setup. As long as there is minimal play in the bearings and rods it shouldn't matter where the tires are located. Actually for any engine with more than 4 drivers having the tires on one end or the other is much better than having it on the center driver as I discovered when when running my Hudson this past weekend. Any dip in the track and that center driver is suspended off the rail by the drivers fore and aft.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> ....
> 
> As stated myself and many of you I will not be pre-ordering any more Lionel engines until the reviews are in.
> 
> Sadly if Lionel's next brass hybrid(announcement due this summer) and it's a must have for me. I'll have to pass. Hope there are a few extras out there if it's a good loco.


Gary, 

Given what's happened recently, I perfectly understand your position about pre-ordering. I'm in the same boat going forward. Regardless of what Lionel says about limiting the brass/hybrid steamers to pre-ordering only, that's not what happened with the first one... and I presume won't happen with the next one either. Up until very recently, Lionel had "extra" brass/hybrid steamers on their webstore well after delivery. So these were not "exactly" built to order based strictly on customer pre-orders -- even though buyers were led to believe that would be the case. In fact, Mr. Muffin's Trains even had them listed on his website (and still does for that matter... although they're sold out) for a pretty good price compared to the normal webstore price. And I didn't think dealers were gonna have access to selling the brass/hybrid locomotives. So I'm not sure what's up with Mr. Muffins having them on his website -- unless he somehow got access to a few of the "extra" ones Lionel made. Ya just never know these days! 

David


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dave, there's nothing to stop a dealer from ordering more than he has orders of, I'm sure most big dealers do that.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Dave, there's nothing to stop a dealer from ordering more than he has orders of, I'm sure most big dealers do that.


Absolutely true, John for regular BTO items. But I was referring to the Brass/Hybrid steamer where Lionel explicitly kept dealers out of the sales channel for pre-orders -- or so we were told. To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Muffins Trains is the only dealer that had the Brass/Hybrid steamer listed on the website... AND at a lower price than Lionel was selling to consumers during the pre-order period when Lionel told customers they'd need to order direct from Lionel. Exactly when Mr. Muffins listed those locomotives on his website is unclear to me. So either he never really had them to sell in the first place (in which case the listing was an error), or Lionel gave him a deal on the extra units they were selling through the company webstore after delivering their direct-to-customer pre-orders. 

Either way though.... Lionel produced more Brass/Hybrid steamers beyond the firm customer pre-orders -- thereby mis-representing the fact that customers NEEDED to pre-order the Brass/Hybrid direct from Lionel in order to get one. 

David


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just reported on OGR, Lionel is now accepting Moguls for repair (in the fall) or you can request a refund from them. Interesting development. How many times has Lionel offered a refund?

Pete


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

There is an update on this that was posted on the other forum. After a lot of posts critical of Lionel, (not sure why the thread is still there), and demanding that Lionel offer a refund, One member posted this:
_"Just got off the phone with Katie over at Lionel's Customer Service center. She told me that they are now taking the Moguls back and issuing RA numbers for them, as of this morning. The repairs will not be done until sometime this fall (September/October per her estimate). They want them all there to prep them and expedite the repairs once parts are in.

After a few more questions, Lionel agreed to "buy back" my Mogul. I will be shipping it back to Lionel tomorrow and will be getting a check in the mail sometime in the next few weeks for the total purchase price."_​
I ordered my Mogul in August 2016. It was delivered to me on October 3, 2017. I received an RA from Lionel on 2/1/18. Now I wait until Sept/Oct 2018 for it to be fixed (latest of many dates). 26 months wait and $580 spent to get a working engine. Lionel might be trying to make good but it sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth about Lionel.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Interesting developments. So now the two ever-important questions going forward will be:


What are dealers doing with Moguls still in their inventory? Are they shipping them back to Lionel too? Or will they sell them to consumers -- putting the onus on the buyer to get everything squared away with Lionel? (Personally, I wouldn't touch an original Legacy Mogul currently at dealers with a ten foot pole. Because it's still not 100% clear Lionel's factory is gonna make the correct parts. There track record is awful at this point with confidence trending into negative territory. So why role the dice unnecessarily? )

There's an admittedly active secondary market for all our trains these days. And informed buyers will know these Legacy Moguls from the 2017 production run are gonna have a cloud hanging over them. So how difficult will it be to prove a Mogul has had the necessary upgrade "fix" in place? Paperwork? Certificate of Authenticity? Upgrade kit #?

On a related note, the last time I recall Lionel offering refunds enmasse was when the Legacy Pennsy Turbine locomotive was shipped a few years ago. I bought mine from Charlie Ro back then. But when the moisture/rust issue surfaced, buyers received refund checks directly from Lionel.

David


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Well we will see what happens but I know if I had one it would be going back for a refund. I suspect they will be repaired at Lionel's leisure and resold at a discount either at the LCCA open house, on Lionels own website, or sold to one of more of the big dealers at a discount for reselling as what happened with Grzyboskis purchase of large amount of new old stock.

Pete


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Norton said:


> . . . resold at a discount either at the LCCA open house, on Lionels own website, or sold to one of more of the big dealers
> 
> Pete


Well, back to Davids "under a cloud" comment earlier If Lionel does this, the market will still shy away. Would anyone ever trust these locos ,or, with all due respect to them, Lionel? I think it would be the same wariness that you approach buying a used car with a just-too-good-to-be-true-price, six months after a bad flood. Maybe this one is fixed right, or maybe not, but do you want to take the risk? At a low enough price, a person would take the risk, but I imagine the price required to move a big bunch of these after all this publicity is so low, Lionel couldn't make money on it. 

And any big dealer would probably think about the impact on their reputation and shy away, even if offered them as a discount. Again, why take the chance?


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I might "take a chance" at the right price. I would buy one now, as is, at 300 bucks. I have no doubt I could make it right. I picked that figure because thats what my TMCC version cost me and its one sweet engine. Always has been. I would also bet that figure is not that far from Lionel's wholesale price to its dealers so they wouldn't be taking that big of a bath.

Pete


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Let's take a closer look. Lionel, after considerable jawboning by one customer, agreed to issue him a refund. I don't see anything in his post that suggests it's a standard policy at Lionel with the defective Mogels, just a one-off situation.


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

After talking to Dave Olson about this today the solution is interesting to say the least. Won't happen until Sept though. I'll let him post something over there before I mention it over here.

As for the Sept time frame, it's ok for me. I don't run trains in the summer months I ride trains in the summer months.


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Lionel Dean posted the following on the other forum:
_For consumers who purchased the Mogul engine and experienced a possible hesitation in the engine performance, please reach out to Lionel Customer Service at 1-800-4LIONEL to initiate the process. We have been working with the factory and determined a good solution to fix the issue at hand. The Customer Service team will work with you on next steps and timing for the repair. The factory will be sending over technicians to our facility in NC to complete the updates. In order to eliminate future delays to existing 2018 production schedules, the update / fix will be completed in early fall. If you feel your locomotive is effected we ask that you send your locomotives in now in order to speed up the repair process. All engines will be checked / tested by our in-house Customer Service Technicians and Engineering team to ensure they meet the approved Lionel standard. Engines will be returned as promptly as possible pending parts delivery. Due to the nature of the repair all engines must be returned directly to Lionel and not an authorized service center.

Lionel will not comment further on the forum. All communication will be handled through customer service 

Thank you for your patience-The Lionel Team_​


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

And the OGR thread has been closed to discussion by Alan. "You now know what Lionel's stand is. Your opinion doesn't count."


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Yep Pat, Lionel has spoken. The Chinese factory can't send personnel until Sept. From what I've been told these engines are so badly made that no two engines have the same issues. So since I'm not in model train mode for the summer I can wait but if it goes much past Sept I'll more than likely demand a refund.

Sad I really want some Rutland on my layout.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Is Lionel offering a refund?
I don't see that mentioned.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

No refund mentioned. I would be very hesitant to buy this loco after repairs are made.

Bill


----------



## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

PatKn said:


> Lionel Dean posted the following on the other forum:
> _For consumers who purchased the Mogul engine and experienced a possible hesitation in the engine performance, please reach out to Lionel Customer Service at 1-800-4LIONEL to initiate the process. We have been working with the factory and determined a good solution to fix the issue at hand. The Customer Service team will work with you on next steps and timing for the repair. The factory will be sending over technicians to our facility in NC to complete the updates. In order to eliminate future delays to existing 2018 production schedules, the update / fix will be completed in early fall. *If you feel your locomotive is effected we ask* that you send your locomotives in now in order to speed up the repair process. All engines will be checked / tested by our in-house Customer Service Technicians and Engineering team to ensure they meet the approved Lionel standard. Engines will be returned as promptly as possible pending parts delivery. Due to the nature of the repair all engines must be returned directly to Lionel and not an authorized service center.
> 
> Lionel will not comment further on the forum. All communication will be handled through customer service
> ...


And there you have it - a bit of insight into why Lionel is going down the tubes.

Yes - Hello Lionel - my Mogul has too much reverb!!!


----------



## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

superwarp1 said:


> Yep Pat, Lionel has spoken. The Chinese factory can't send personnel until Sept. *From what I've been told these engines are so badly made that no two engines have the same issues*. So since I'm not in model train mode for the summer I can wait but if it goes much past Sept I'll more than likely demand a refund.
> 
> Sad I really want some Rutland on my layout.


That might explain why they are asking people to start sending them in now. This tends to say "we don't yet have a handle of this problem"

Wonder if the existing retail stock is being recalled?


----------



## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

PatKn said:


> Lionel Dean posted the following on the other forum:
> _All engines will be checked / tested by our in-house Customer Service Technicians and Engineering team *to ensure they meet the approved Lionel standard.*
> _​


I wonder what that is?


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Roving Sign said:


> That might explain why they are asking people to start sending them in now. This tends to say "we don't yet have a handle of this problem"
> 
> Wonder if the existing retail stock is being recalled?


Dealers were sent the same message from Dean. Send them in.
No word on who pays the freight.
Curious why the factory has to send people over. Is the the quantity of work involved, the ability of the Lionel service, or is Lionel simply making the factory take responsibility?

Pete


----------



## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Norton said:


> Dealers were sent the same message from Dean. Send them in.
> No word on who pays the freight.
> *Curious why the factory has to send people over. *Is the the quantity of work involved, the ability of the Lionel service, or is Lionel simply making the factory take responsibility?
> 
> Pete



Yes - especially puzzling since one of the recent explanations for delay was - the new parts weren't right.(or something like that)

Its not like the overseas factory guys are going to come over here and start manufacturing new parts in NC.

Tends to say - the factory has been able to duplicate the issue(s) and knows how to fix it - Lionel's guys missed it - and resorted to ordering remanufactured parts...so the factory might be looking at the Lionel team with a bit of suspicion.

/rank speculation


----------



## Guest (May 31, 2018)

*"And the OGR thread has been closed to discussion by Alan. "You now know what Lionel's stand is. Your opinion doesn't count.""
*
Pat, it typically takes two to do the tango.


----------



## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Nice that we can keep talking, while the other place has lowered the Iron Curtain again!


----------



## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

The whole message is complete mess from the get go - I hate to sound too critical - but these are important communications and should be edited by a professional.

"For Consumers..."

Consumers!? - Ah - I think "Customers" is the operative term here.

And I mentioned the misuse of "effected" - should be "affected" - a common mistake - but unacceptable at the corporate level.

The explanations that follow suggest there is some firmware element in the electronics that needs to be updated - as well as some new parts. "update/fix"

Some language regarding a warranty going forward would sound a lot better than "the approved Lionel standard"


----------



## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The fix involves new gears, among other things apparently, which will likely change the gear ratio. In order for a Legacy engine to run at the same speed as other Legacy engines there has to be a firmware change to adjust for the gear change.

A few months ago there were a few dealers that still had some TMCC Moguls on the shelves and now none can be found, only few conventional versions.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

PatKn said:


> And the OGR thread has been closed to discussion by Alan. "You now know what Lionel's stand is. Your opinion doesn't count."


Indeed Pat.... the arrogance over there just never ends. I'm glad I'm not dealing with it anymore. 




superwarp1 said:


> ... Sad I really want some Rutland on my layout.


Gary, in that case I'd recommend grabbing a TMCC version of the Mogul and repaint for the Rutland.  This whole saga just seems to get more mysterious by the moment. Aside from Dean, I wonder who's really left at Lionel NC to pull off a fix that seems fairly involved like this one. I doubt it's something a bunch of new-hires are capable of doing. And perhaps that's why Lionel is having factory workers come over from China.

I've been pointing out for a couple of years now what I refer to as the magical 2-month window when items ship from China to when Lionel receives them in NC and ships them to dealers. So given the factory's propensity to deliver practically everything in the catalog during November/December each year, I'm betting the factory workers won't really free up until late October (i.e., at which time stuff ships from China to arrive the last week of December). We'll see. 

Bottom line... depending on how everything shakes out, these "fixed" Legacy Moguls could be back in their owners' hands before Thanksgiving... or they could kick 2019 off with a bang. Only time will tell, but I admire everybody who's sticking with the process for their patience. Best of luck!

David


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I hear you Dave. I only have 600 and some change invested in this thing so I can wait but I won't go past a year. This entire experience has taught me never to pre-order again as I'm having the same issue with the milk cars. Rarely do Lionel engines sell out before the dealers get them. I'll wait for the reviews before ordering a engine the next time around.


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I agree with you SW. My situation is a little different. I buy and preorder mostly MTH. Most of my Lionel is second hand. I only ordered the Mogul because I have been waiting for a Rutland small steam for a long time. I have a milk train pulled by a Rutland RS1 that want a steam engine for. The milk car was for that train. I won't preorder Lionel again.

Pat

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm just hoping the Lionel H10 isn't another disaster, I really want one. hwell:


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

If you model anything Pennsy IMHO you must have two locos, the K4 and the H10.
I hope it goes right.


----------



## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm just hoping the Lionel H10 isn't another disaster, I really want one. hwell:


Me too JOHN. At $600 and whistle steam and swinging bell,could be a grand deal?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rogruth said:


> If you model anything Pennsy IMHO you must have two locos, the K4 and the H10.
> I hope it goes right.


Well, I have a couple of K4's, one pre-war and one post-war, but no H10's.



laz57 said:


> Me too JOHN. At $600 and whistle steam and swinging bell,could be a grand deal?


The swinging bell pushed me over the edge. Actually, for $600, it's pretty hard to pick up a Legacy steamer brand new, so it'll be interesting to see what we actually get!


----------

