# Prewar Factory Error!!!



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I recently bought four Lionel bodies, for the sole purpose of getting this one particular body, which is a true legit factory error. There is no evidence that the various holes were added by someone who owned this loco, after it left the factory, and all the holes are in their correct location. Is it a 1688 loco, or is it a 1668 loco???? The loco was painted only on the outside with some sort of red paint, which may be red primer, but the underside is still the original Gun Metal Gray. 
I have been working on trying to identify exactly how many versions of just the 1688/1688E bodies were made throughout the run from 1936 until 1941, when it was last produced. So far I have identified 10 distinct variations, without taking into account the differences listed in Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains 1901-1942, Vol. II "O and OO gauges", which makes distinctions of the 1688 number tag or 1688E tag as a variation. Greenberg's guide lists 8 variations, which includes the number tags as variations. If I were to add the number tag variations to the list, it would probably end up being 15-16 total.
Many people think that the 1688/1688E is pretty common, when in fact it isn't. The same casting of the 1688's is shared with the 1588 windup loco, and the 1668 six wheel loco. The 1588 has two variations, and the 1688/1688E has three variations, and the basic casting was one of the longest lasting for the period of 1936-1941, and thousands were made.
Below are photos of the shell/body of the Factory Error, as I received it, with 3 other bodies. I think you will find it very unique.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Doc, nice find. Like I said verry cool. As for the red didn't they have some stuff, maybe not Lionel ,painted red? I remember some windups that color. I dont remember a Lionel that old being red , even as a re paint as most try to copy the origional? As for the body, It might have been a prototype or a mistake? There was a lot or stuff like this never recorded and taken home by the workers. Most, got junked as no one appreciated the stuff. Still , rare, and no zinc pest to boot


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The Wilmington show is this weekend. I will keep an eye out for uncommon shells!:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hmm, I will have to look in my shell box, I can't remember what is in there.
What are you going to do with it?

Sort of looks like someone primed it to me?
But I may be wrong.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Big Ed, You are right about it looking like primer. It is no longer Red, but is now back to Gun Metal Gray. I have been in contact to TJcruiser recently, and keeping him up to date with this FREAK, and my study of all of Lionel's Torpedo Bodies. My initial thought that it was a Factory Error, but now I am more inclined think that it is a protoype shell, that was used in the factory, to know all the placements for the various holes that had to be machined for motor mounts, E unit slots, etc..

If I really wanted to, I could add a 1668 six wheel motor, or I could use the 1688 four wheel motor, and make it operational again. Right now, I won't do anything, beyond getting it back to Gun Metal. I have other bodies that I am working on, to get into running condition. The basic mold was used on the 1588 wind up, the 1668 six wheel, and the 1688 four wheel locos. I presently have *10* bodies, but not enough motors to finish them all. 

I have one 1588 windup, two 1668's, and seven 1688's, all with differences in their castings. Of the 1588 windup's, there are two variations, with bodies made only in 1936. There are *14* variations of the 1688 (four wheel), that use three different motors, and there are *5* variations with the 1668 (six wheel) locos. I know every single variation that was made, and can basically narrow down to the year it was produced, with a few exceptions. ***The rarest of the group, is the 1st issue of 1936, that has forward facing open cab windows, 3/4" square roof hatch, and a winged keystone above the headlight.*** Any body that has the square roof hatch was only made in 1936, along with the open firebox feature. The firebox wall was produced in 1937 and later.

You show me a set of photos of any one of them, and I can tell anything you want to know.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Nothing rare at the train show. They all had boiler doors.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I found that I have 3 shells. 2 1688e's and one 1668e.
I think that is all I have of these, unless I have another box somewhere?
The first is 1688e painted black, this shell feels lighter then the next two.









These next one is an 1688e, the shell feels heavier then the black one. I guess you will know why? 










The last one is an 1668e, it is heavier then the black one too.

The only difference between these two are the e unit slots. Notice the one slot is towards the front on the 1668e and the other 1688e is back towards the cab more. 
*EDIT
Note that the square hole on the catwalk back by the cab is missing on the 1668e.
Note that the hole on top back by the cab is missing on the black 1688e.*


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

How about a 289e shell to look at?

I like this one better because of the stairs in the front.
I like the details on the shell better, I wish I had the rest of it.

Made in 1937 only?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Question......the 1688e's and the 1668e has holes for the markers that go through the shell. (the red line)

The blue line shows two indentations on the shell under the handrail, they don't go through the shell. What would these have been for? You know?
Most of the pictures I find on the net shows nothing in these spots.
I wonder what they were made for?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Differences explained*

It is hard to see on the first one, but is there a 3/4" square raise on top of the cab. If it does have it, the cab should be an open wall, where you can see the motor. That is the 1936 series, which are the only ones to have the raised roof hatch. It was eliminated 1937 and later. The 1936 bodies are referred to as the "thin casting", which was modified for the 1937 & later bodies, to the "thick casting".

The second shell 1688 is 1937 or later, but a question about the other side. Is there a single hole near the cab, about 1/4" big. If so, this shell would use a different motor than the first one, which I'll explain later. This shell is the "thick casting". The E unit slots on the first & second is between the sand dome & safety valves.


The third shell is 1668, thick casting, with the E unit slot forward between the smoke stack and sand dome. The motor is the 6 wheel version, and motor would be 1664 motor. 

The indentation in the shells is just a minor detail, that serves no purpose.

I'm on my iPad, so I have to jump back and forth to look at your posts, and then add to this post, so bear with me.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> It is hard to see on the first one, but is there a 3/4" square raise on top of the cab. If it does have it, the cab should be an open wall, where you can see the motor. That is the 1936 series, which are the only ones to have the raised roof hatch. It was eliminated 1937 and later. The 1936 bodies are referred to as the "thin casting", which was modified for the 1937 & later bodies, to the "thick casting".


Yes, the first one (painted black) has that on the cabs roof, the other 2 don't.
And it is a lot lighter.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Differences continued*

Okay, I went back to your first photo and the second 1688 has the motor mounting holes in the running boards, so that will use the first style motor, that has a horizontal plate for the screws to go into. It doesn't have the roof hatch, so iris 1937 or later vintage, and the motor would be the same style, but the nameplate on the bottom of motor will say Lionel 027. The wheels will also be 12 spoke wheels, NOT the 8 spoke. The 8 spoke wheels are for strictly Lionel Jr. Tagged motors, and strictly used in 1936 only. You will find holdover Jr. Motor in some 1937 bodies, until Linel used the up.

The 289E loco would have a 1688W (that isn't a typo either) tender. The tender is actually the same as a 1689W, but the box designation for this loco is 1688W, and the only one to have that designation.

I will try and post the different motors that were used in the 1688/1688E's a little later, so you will know what all three look like. That stuff is on the computer, and right now I am having a new kitchen floor being installed. I'll get back to the motors later today.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Differences Part 3, the motors*

I am going to show you photos of the three different motors that were used on the 1668/1668E locos, starting with the very first version type I, with explanation of the years used. Then the type II, used sparingly. Then to the type III on the last set of 1688's.









The first issues came as Lionel Jr. nameplates, with 8 spoke wheels, used primarily in only 1936, but leftover inventory would show up on 1937 models also, until the supply was deleted. The 1936 bodies all have the square roof hatch on the cab, and the firebox wall is open on only the 1936 bodies. The same design motor had 12 spoke wheels attached, and the nameplate was Lionel 027, which carried through to the end of the run, on all motors and locos. The 12 spoke wheels are part #'s 1664-16/1664-17/1664-31/1664-32, of which two have the hub for the linkage.
















The type II motor uses one horizontal screw, placed laterally through the body, and the screw hole is near the cab end of the body. These also use the 12 spoke wheels, and marked Lionel 027.









The type III motor is the last one that was used in the 1938-39 time frame, and the last one they used. When searching for these, they usually come up as the "die cast motor", with an OM-26 collector assembly. These motors are mounted through two holes in the left side of the body, one forward and one rearward, and pass through the body/motor, to the other side. This motor looks a lot like the Postwar 1654/55/56 motors, but are actually different because of the rear wheels not having hubs on the Postwar versions. The Postwar versions could be used, by pulling the rear wheels off, and replacing them with the right hubbed wheels. The Postwar 1654 & 56 are single gear reduction motors, whereas the 1655 motor is double reduction with two gears. The wheels are what sets them apart from the Prewar motor.

When I get the opportunity, I am going to post side by side comparisons of a series of 1688 bodies, along with the 1668, to show how the mold was changed over the years, and point out distinguishing characteristics of each. That is going to take a little time.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

You made reference to the countersink hole that shows on both the 1668 & 1688. That hole is actually the mounting hole for the 1668 six wheel motor. I have figured out that all the bodies are casted solid, and the various holes for name tags E unit slots, motor mounting holes are done individually, after the body comes out of the mold. There are 1688's that have that countersink hole in their shells, with the thought was it was going to eventually become a 1668. The countersink isn't drilled for the screw mount, because they decided to use that shell on a 1688, and put the two running board holes in, to mount the motor. That countersink hole version came in Black, & Gun Metal Gray, which makes it two of the 14 versions of the 1688.

Do I have you confused enough yet???????? I know every single variation of all the 027 torpedo shells, with the 1588, 1688, & 1668. Lump all three locos together, and there are 21 variations.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> Do I have you confused enough yet???????? I know every single variation of all the 027 torpedo shells, with the 1588, 1688, & 1668. Lump all three locos together, and there are 21 variations.


Keep researching and you might find another 21.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Nah!!! I think I have it maxed out at 21 variations. I have been emailing TJ with what has been going on, and all the new finds. He mentioned an old thread of his about the "notched motors" that I should add to the list. That motor is the type II, I posted, and the same style with the notched opening around the field coil is in the later series 258 locos.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Uh, ohh ...

I guess TJ hasn't faded off into the sunset just yet 

My many thanks to Jerry who has diligently kept me well informed with his prewar research, and for keeping me "in the train loop" while life has me pulled thin in many other directions.

Life's good on my end. Very busy with kids, and also juggling several boat design projects. My mother passed away a few months back (as some of you may know). 
Thankfully, my 91-year-old (and WWII vet) father is still with us. And (with some luck and fate), I'm planning on taking him to Washington DC on an Honor Flight trip in a few weeks. All of us in the family are really looking forward to that.

Back to trains ... if only for a moment ...

Ed, I think those square indents at the front of the catwalk on the 1688 shell are simply reflective of real footholds (steps) that would have been there on the real-life counterparts.

Jerry -- your research into the family tree of 1588 / 1688 / 1668 has been fantastic, and really sheds some light on the many variations that Lionel must have produced. Many, many thanks for your efforts.

And ...

My warm regards to many old friends here. I am sorry I've been lost in the shadows, lately, but you are all always in my thoughts. I hope all are well!

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Factory Error*

In my first post of this thread, I questioned if I had a Factory Error, or a possible Prototype. This body is so unique that it features an E unit slot for both a 1688E or a 1668E motor levers, and also has the motor mounting screw holes to mount either style motor. Well as luck would have it, I actually found a complete Loco being offered on eBay with the same holes in the body to match the one I own. The one on eBay is set up for the 1668E motor which a 2-6-2 arrangement. With this new find, now I am inclined to catagorize both of them as "Factory Errors", and assembled from the factory that way. 

































There are actually differences between my loco, and the one shown in these new photos. These bodies have to have been made during the end of 1936 into 1937, during a transition to install the bigger motor into the body. The one that I own has a closed "Firebox Wall", which is from 1937 issues, and the one from eBay actually shows an "Open Firebox" wall, which is indicative of a 1936 issued casting.The 1936 castings were referred to as the Thin Casting, versus the 1937 and later castings which are the Thick Casting. The 1936 castings were apparently prone to breakage, and Lionel modified the casting to make the body less prone to breakage. I would consider either of these two known examples as Very Very Rare Locos, as issued.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Cool doc and weird they probably had left over shells but ran out of motors


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The one thing that seems to jump out and slap you in the face, is that knowing all the various castings I have found with these locos, is the original casting had to Raw solid castings. The holes for motor mounts, and slots for E units, and other trim pieces were done after the casting came out of the mold. It would be too complicated to try and get the alignment of all those holes from the mold, to produce so many casting differences. Other people don't see things like that, but I do, which makes me question how Lionel did things way back in the Prewar and later Postwar years, when they were mass producing so many different Loco bodies. To me, if gives me a better understanding of how Lionel did things. Maybe it's just me, and the way my mind works....LOL!!! Most Lionel collector and operators don't think about mundane things like that, and just collect or run their trains. I just find it interesting knowing some of the odd ball and obscure stuff.

Here is a kind of trivia question about Lionel. How many people would know the name Joseph L. Bonanno, without looking it up on Google or Bing for the answer??


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

teledoc said:


> ...Here is a kind of trivia question about Lionel. How many people would know the name Joseph L. Bonanno, without looking it up on Google or Bing for the answer??


Didn't he invent the smoke pellet? (no, I didn't look it up)


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Name is familiar, but I wouldn't know even if he was my neighbor!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Highvoltage, Not a bad guess, but smoke pellet was made by a chemist that worked for Lionel. That would be Mario Mazzone. Joshua L. Cohen/Cowen hired a lot of Italian immigrants when he started his business. Another name to throw into the mix is Mario Caruso, and how important was he??


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