# Mth rail king locomotive problem



## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

Good afternoon, i could used some help.
I have a mth railking 4-6-2 fourty niner.(from the mid 1990"s ) locomotive. The smoke unit was cracked, so i ordered a new one from mth & replaced it. The train was having trouble moving after the unit was replaced, and stoped moving all together.i am using fastract with a 80 watt lionel transformer. 

I was told that mth will work only for a short time with a lionel transformer. To correct this i need a mrc transformer, as this will work with both mth & lionel. Then the fourty-niner locomotive should work.

Does anyone have an opinon , & if this is correct , what model transformer shoul i get?

Thank you


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I've never heard of that. As long if the engine is being run conventionally, I figure a transformer is a transformer. Just doesn't sent make sense to me. Best to wait for an official opinion though.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a Rail King 2-8-8-2 that I have run with a CW-80 transformer (80 watts, new). It ran just fine.

According to the rule that says, "The trouble is probably in the last thing you touched." It is most likely that you did not install the smoke unit correctly. Do the drivers turn when you turn them by hand?


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

I can not turn the wheels, unless i remove the body & turn the motor. I did remove the motor & the wheels turned fine. I also tried to power the motor with it disconnected from the wheels ( i was holding it with wires still connected) it would not power up. I checked the smoke unit & it is working fine, along with the headlight, however no sound or movement. Any ideas. Thank you


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Do you know what ESD (electrostatic discharge) is? It is dry in Arizona, and unless you used precautions to avoid ESD, you may have zapped the electronics when you had the loco apart. 

Some years ago, we sold some equipment to a company in Illinois. It was winter time, cold and dry. They zapped most of the electronics on one circuit board by handling it without adequate ESD protection. I live in Florida where it is damp most of the time, and ESD is usually not a problem, but I still use ESD prevention techniques.


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

I am concerned, that you may be correct. I was hoping there was a different, simple answer. If you think of anything else please let me know. I do thank you for your ideas and thoughts.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

First off, can you give me the exact MTH model number for this locomotive? Let's not jump to any conclusions.

Disconnect the smoke unit and see if the locomotive will run without it. That would be my first test.

There are problems running MTH ProtoSound locomotives with the Lionel CW-80, so that could be part of the issue. Check the documentation, they list "approved" transformers. The CW-80 is not on that list for good reason!


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

Good evening, the unit will not run even the the smoke diconnected, the smoke unit works great. The model is 4-6-2 fourty-niner steamer with protosound, item # 30-1139-1 i do not have any paper work. The box show it will work with most transformers. I am also worried, i bought my special needs son a brand new mth coors silver bullet for christmas. I want to make sure i have the right transformer. Thank you


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Grj, how does the cw-80 interfere with the Mth protosound trains? Just curious! (and the answer I get I probably wouldn't understand!) 
.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

deserteel said:


> Good evening, the unit will not run even the the smoke diconnected, the smoke unit works great. The model is 4-6-2 fourty-niner steamer with protosound, item # 30-1139-1 i do not have any paper work. The box show it will work with most transformers. I am also worried, i bought my special needs son a brand new mth coors silver bullet for christmas. I want to make sure i have the right transformer. Thank you


The CW-80 isn't a recommended power source. When I was at the MTH ASC training, they had several transformers that gave various versions of the ProtoSound and even ProtoSound 2 and 3 trouble. The CW-80 was one of them, and one of the MRC Pure Power transformers was also a problem.

The transformer shouldn't damage the engine, they just don't always work properly with them. The Forty-Niner probably needs to be looked at if it's not running, hard to diagnose from afar.




sjm9911 said:


> Grj, how does the cw-80 interfere with the Mth protosound trains? Just curious! (and the answer I get I probably wouldn't understand!)
> .


The chopped waveform has some unique characteristic that seems to trouble certain early ProtoSound boards. It will work with some, but I've personally experienced it not working correctly with one. One if the issues is that it apparently doesn't return to true zero volts with a direction change, that screws things up.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, makes more sense now! I knew it had more too it thanks.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Just wondering when you say the engine doesn't move can you be more specific? That generation MTH has battery problems. After so many years the NiCad battery no longer charges. The symptom is the engine boots up but when you hit the direction button the engine reboots. it never moves. If this is what's happening all you need is a recharge or a new battery.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Another issue is that ProtoSound 1 also can get scrambled with a low battery and require a reset with a special chip. I have the set of chips to reset various PS/1 issues.


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

Good evening, now that Thanksgiving is over I can focus on the MTH problem. First of all I would like to thank everyone for their comments and ideas.
Unfortunately the engine does not run, probably something I did was trying to fix it.... John, if I send it to you would you be willing to diagnose the problem, and advised me if the train is worth fixing.
Also I am concerned, as I did buy a new MTH Coors Silver bullet train set. This is for my special needs little boy who loves trains, I really don't want to disappoint him,Christmas morning, therefore I am asking for suggestions on what transformer should be used. I have mostly by now CW 80s, however I do have an older ZW transformer. Thank you


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The locomotive is a ProtoSound 1 locomotive. If, for some reason, the PS/1 board set is dead, it can be made to run as conventional with an inexpensive conventional reverse board. However, many times these are simple fixes.

If you use the ZW with the new Coors set, add a 10 amp (or as low as 6 amp) fuse in line with the track connection. The old post-war transformer breakers protect the transformer, but not the trains!

Send me a PM on your situation with the 49er Locomotive.


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

*Transformer*

Good morning, I did find the owner's manual for the MTH silver bullet train. There are several transformers that will work with this unit (list attached), I do see that the Lionel CW's are not listed. From the attached list I would appreciate your opinion on which transformer would be good to use on all trains, including MTH, LIONEL & WILLIAMS. In short, I had no idea that Transformers could be different and not work in all units. Thank you


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're buying a modern transformer, my choices would be the MTH Z4000 or the MRC Pure Power 270.

*MTH Z4000*











*MRC Pure Power 270*


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

I was actually just researching the MRC transformer and came across this thread. The train store that I have a credit with does not deal with MTH for whatever reason, but they had the MRC Pure Power Dual for $300. I wanted to make sure it was a good buy before I went and picked it up.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

Gunrunnerjohn....what makes the MTH 4000 more attractive to you than the new Lionel ZW other than say price?


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

where would be the best place to buy either transformer. Thank you


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

TundraBoy said:


> Gunrunnerjohn....what makes the MTH 4000 more attractive to you than the new Lionel ZW other than say price?


The Z4000 is a pure sine wave transformer, the ZW-L is a chopped waveform transformer. Also, you can have two Z-4000's for the price of one ZW-L



deserteel said:


> where would be the best place to buy either transformer. Thank you


The MRC PurePower 270 for $300 is competitive for what I see on the web, but I'd probably lean to the MTH Z4000. It's a transformer that will last you a very long time. Also, it has the option of a very cool wireless remote control for all the transformer functions.

MTH Z-4000 Remote Commander System


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

I would think the MRC would last just as well.

I just realized that they also made the Tech II transformers. My dad got one of them back in 1985, and almost 30 years later, it still works like a champ. Of course, now that I said that, it'll crap out the next time it is used. lol


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The MRC is fine, but for an extra $80-90 you get what I consider to be a better transformer with 130 watts more capacity. Either will do the job just fine.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The Z4000 is a pure sine wave transformer, the ZW-L is a chopped waveform transformer. Also, you can have two Z-4000's for the price of one ZW-L


Not sure I understand the benetfit of pure sine wave. I am just re-entering the hobby after an absence of some 50 years. I have resurected all my old late 50's Lionel stuff powered by a 1033. Not surprisingly I am now looking to enlarge my layout and feel I am quickly out growing the 1033. As well I suspect I will be venturing into the modern world of TMCC in the not too distant future. So if I splurge for a new elecrtonic transformer I would want it compatible with the more modern Lionel technology. Anything I do will have to be compatible with conventional as well if for no other reason but nostalga.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if you plan on sticking to Lionel for command, the ZW-L is a good choice. If you might be running MTH command stuff, you might be happier with the Z4000.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, if you plan on sticking to Lionel for command, the ZW-L is a good choice. If you might be running MTH command stuff, you might be happier with the Z4000.


Yes, I expect any future command to be Lionel. That being said the Z4000 is almost half the price. Would it limit what you could do with Lionel command?


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The MRC is fine, but for an extra $80-90 you get what I consider to be a better transformer with 130 watts more capacity. Either will do the job just fine.


Unfortunately, the store where I have my credit doesn't deal with MTH and wouldn't even order a Z4000 for me. So, I picked up the MRC transformer last night. 

My locomotives do run a lot better with this transformer than they ever did with the CW-80, which is to be expected. The most noticeable difference is with the 833 Blue Comet. I guess the CW-80 wasn't powerful enough for me to run the train and blow the whistle at the same time, because when I did that, the train would stop after the whistle blew, and then start running again. With the MRC, it slows down a little bit, but it stills cruises along the track.

The analog gauges are also a nice feature to have. I now know it takes about ten volts to get my Blue Comet to fire up into stationary mode. Apply a little more voltage, hit the direction button, and it begins moving forward. It is also nice to gauge the train's speed based on voltage versus the meaningless percentage/speed numbers on most tansformers. I much rather enjoy knowing my train is running at 14-15 volts versus saying, "Yeah, the handle is at 55 right now."


I don't really expect to ever have the desire to go into a command system. I like my transformers.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have both the MRC and the Z4000, both are fine transformers. I have looked at the Lionel ZW-L, but it's simply a bit too expensive for my taste. I also don't see the need for all the variable channels, all my stuff is pretty much command, so a pile of 180W Lionel bricks works fine for me.


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## deserteel (Nov 26, 2011)

Good morning, I did take your advice and purchased a z-4000, I will be setting it up this weekend. I ended up buying it at Arizona trains in Mesa Arizona.I am very happy I bought it through MTH dealer. He was able to show me how to unpack and operate the unit. It was the same kind of pricing I saw on the Internet, however the extra personal service was invaluable.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's great when a LHS can be competitive with on-line, and there are obvious benefits to purchasing local. I do repairs at a local train store, they are seeing a ton of walk-in traffic right now, smiles all around.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have both the MRC and the Z4000, both are fine transformers. I have looked at the Lionel ZW-L, but it's simply a bit too expensive for my taste. I also don't see the need for all the variable channels, all my stuff is pretty much command, so a pile of 180W Lionel bricks works fine for me.


Yeah, I can't see spending $800 when comparable ones are half the cost.


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