# What is the best way to increase the smoker?



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Is there anything one can do to increase the smoke output of an American Flyer smoke unit?:dunno:


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

The best, permanent way is to re-build the unit itself.. I hope it wasn't the 302 I sent you!.. Some folks will squirt a little WD40 into the stack,and let it soak a little to break up the gum in the unit. I never tried it, so I can't recommend it...


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

The best way is as flyernut states, rebuild the unit. Sometimes the wick is too dried or burnt to save. You can also wind less coils of the Nichrome wire to give you an Ohms reading of about 30 instead of 45. Be aware that the element probably won't last as long as the standard length, but it will increase the smoke output.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, like as has been said. The more smoke the less time smoke unit will function.
How much shorter, I do not know. Also the faster you run the train the more smoke you get. You and I run our trains more on the slow side so we get less smoke. I am trying to 
adjust myself for that. I am trying to be satisfied if I see a bit of smoke and let it go at that. I see some of these youtube videos and man those flyers are smoking like crazy.
I do not think they will last long. It is a very very small diameter wire wrapped around the wick. It doesn't take much to burn wire in half and then it is done, no smoke. LOL, I had one wire last about a half second.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Along the same line of thought I have a 322 that takes 12V to run at a reasonable speed and a 302 that just screams around the layout at 9V. The 322 was always smoking fine, the 302 not so well. The only answer was to rebuild the 302 smoke unit with a little lower resistance.
I will put some electrical contact cleaner in the stack and let is sit for a while. Sometimes it helps but not always.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I laid my new '48 302 on her side last night. On the concrete floor. My son was over and I was showing him how nice the new loco was running. I have run it a bunch since I got it.
Not once has the front pilot wheels come off the track. They came off last night and caught on a switch and over she went. All is fine. Not a mar on it. I jumped up like a parent that had just seen their 2 year old go face first onto a concrete floor.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> I laid my new '48 302 on her side last night. On the concrete floor. My son was over and I was showing him how nice the new loco was running. I have run it a bunch since I got it.
> Not once has the front pilot wheels come off the track. They came off last night and caught on a switch and over she went. All is fine. Not a mar on it. I jumped up like a parent that had just seen their 2 year old go face first onto a concrete floor.


Noooooooo!! Not my baby!!!


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

LOL , she is fine.


----------



## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

i wonder if there might be a way to use one of those vape pens for a smoke unit...


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

flyernut said:


> The best, permanent way is to re-build the unit itself.. I hope it wasn't the 302 I sent you!.. Some folks will squirt a little WD40 into the stack,and let it soak a little to break up the gum in the unit. I never tried it, so I can't recommend it...


No, the one you sent me is my best runner and smoker. I have been following Dave on YouTube concerning his SIT rebuild. (



). I had thought that one could get more smoke out of a SIT because of the separate motor and cylinder,. But I must say that I wasn't too impressed. The only advantage that I can see is the loco does not have to be moving.:dunno:


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> No, the one you sent me is my best runner and smoker. I have been following Dave on YouTube concerning his SIT rebuild. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYzbTi90_qg). I had thought that one could get more smoke out of a SIT because of the separate motor and cylinder,. But I must say that I wasn't too impressed. The only advantage that I can see is the loco does not have to be moving.:dunno:


Hi Fred. I can't remember if the engine I sent you had the original smoke unit in it or if I rebuilt that one. I usually don't touch smoke units if they work properly.. And yes, the only advantage I can see with a SIT is that you can idle the engine on a siding, and it will be smoking, but, I don't like hearing the choo choo when the engine is just sitting there. I only have 1 SIT and that's a 322 Hudson.. It's not a great smoker, but it will do...Loren


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Install fan driven smoke with a voltage regulator.  That will give you more smoke than you can shake a stick at!


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Smoke in tender engines generally smoke better than on the video posted. Maybe he wound too many turns with the nichrome wire. He states that he might try advise given in a comment on the use of less windings on his next rebuild.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

GRJ gives great advice. Here are pictures I took this morning of two of my American Flyer engines retrofitted with fan driven smoke units.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> GRJ gives great advice. Here are pictures I took this morning of two of my American Flyer engines retrofitted with fan driven smoke units.


Good idea. But where do one find room to fit a fan in an Atlantic or Pacific, in the tender?


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Not sure if anyone has installed one in a tender but there would be plenty of room. The fan driven units in my Mikados fit in a far smaller space in the smoke box area than available in the tender. The circuit board would also need to fit. 
I paid a professional to modify my engines, otherwise they would still be gathering dust unfinished.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> Not sure if anyone has installed one in a tender but there would be plenty of room. The fan driven units in my Mikados fit in a far smaller space in the smoke box area than available in the tender. The circuit board would also need to fit.
> I paid a professional to modify my engines, otherwise they would still be gathering dust unfinished.


Thanks AmFlyer! Some day, when you have little to do, could you take a photo of the fan installation for me? Of course, only if it is not inconvenient. Also, do you know what kind of fan was installed?


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Install fan driven smoke with a voltage regulator.  That will give you more smoke than you can shake a stick at!


Thanks for the suggestion John! Do you have a line on fans?


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Taking the shell off these engines is not so simple. But Carl Tuveson installed these fan driven smoke units and there are pictures of the internals on his website. I send my AF by Lionel to Carl for mods. 
Ed Goldin does the original Gilbert upgrades. There are pictures on his website of Gilbert engine conversions. I send my Gilbert and AM engines to Ed for modification. 
I am not a do it yourselfer in this area.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There are two small smoke units that would be suitable for AF sized steamers.

On top is a single element MTH O-Gauge smoke unit used in small steamers and also in stuff like their VO-1000 diesels. The botton one is an HO smoke unit, that's in many of their HO steamers.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Carl used the HO unit for his early rebuilds of the older Mikados. He then switched to the small O gauge unit. I have some of each. The O gauge unit holds more fluid but in operation they perform almost the same. In the picture I posted above the NYC has the O gauge unit and the PRR (red cab roof) has the HO unit.
I believe Ed used the O gauge unit above when he took the Gilbert style piston driven smoke units out of my AM Northerns. It fit in the smokebox area under the stack.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> Carl used the HO unit for his early rebuilds of the older Mikados. He then switched to the small O gauge unit. I have some of each. The O gauge unit holds more fluid but in operation they perform almost the same. In the picture I posted above the NYC has the O gauge unit and the PRR (red cab roof) has the HO unit.
> I believe Ed used the O gauge unit above when he took the Gilbert style piston driven smoke units out of my AM Northerns. It fit in the smokebox area under the stack.


Thanks Tom! you an GRJ have given me some options to explore.:appl:


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Install fan driven smoke with a voltage regulator.  That will give you more smoke than you can shake a stick at!


Thanks John! You have given me some options to explore.:appl:


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, you have to remember AmFlyer runs a power system kinda like our DCC system
where the track is always full power. Big help to a smoke unit. You will not get those
results using a transformer. Unless you run it full power and then you will have flyers flying off the curves.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Broke, you have to remember AmFlyer runs a power system kinda like our DCC system
> where the track is always full power. Big help to a smoke unit. You will not get those
> results using a transformer. Unless you run it full power and then you will have flyers flying off the curves.


I was thinking about converting one of my Atlantic's to a DC can motor or maybe even DCC and using a HO fan driven smoke unit. The problem is the choo choo. An electronic choo choo may work with IR,s pointing down to the track so that as the engine goes over it the choo choo would increase with speed. Whew! Not sure I want to go there. But at this point, only dreaming. If I did that, I would need a better S Scale layout with scenery. My wife said if I did that it would be her or the trains. I will surely miss her!:hah: :cheeky4:


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

With a DC can motor your choo choos will work as they do now. No need for change.
I thought about a DC can motor conversion when I could not get 282's motor fixed.
I did get it fixed and have not thought about a can motor since.

I don't have the wife problem anymore. She passed away a couple years ago. She never tried to stop me but she did not like my trains or my diecast cars. I think she was jealous
of the time I spent on them. She never complained about the money. When she would get mad at me about something she would threaten to take a hammer to the trains or as
she called them "the stupid little cars". She never did. LOL, she just wanted me to worry about it when I was at work.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have a constant 13.5V on the track on the layout where I took the pictures. These smoke units use a board with a regulated power supply that outputs a constant voltage to the smoke element. Increasing track voltage above the minimum required voltage has no affect on smoke output. I do not recall the exact track voltage needed but it is less than 9V. The converted AM engines smoke the same on my conventional layout that uses the MRC DualPower O27 with the tethered remotes as the track power. That feature is what is nice about the fan unit conversions, they smoke full output at 8V track power conventional with the engine running slow. Even the best rebuilt Gilbert smoke elements will not do that unless the 1/2 speed worm gear conversion is also done allowing the engine to run slow at higher voltages.

For reference here is a stock Lionel AF Challenger (NP.)









Here is the converted AM Rock Island Northern. There is also a video Ed Goldin took of this engine when he finished the conversion posted on his website.









If I get a chance later today I will take a picture of the Northern smoking on my conventional layout at low voltage.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I just went ahead and did it. Here is a picture of the same AM Northern running conventional. I have the throttle set at 35 on the MRC Dualpower’s 100 scale. I did not measure the track voltage but from past experience 35 is 7V. The only caveat is that the O27 DualPower output is not a pure sine wave. 










Just for amusement here is a new FlyerChief Northern. The smoke units in these engines seem to work well.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

You have me very envious AmFlyer! They all look good. Thanks for taking the time to post these photos and expound on them!:appl:


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You are welcome, my pleasure. I am not pushing fan driven units, just wanted to show an option for some engines. I still very much enjoy running all the original unmodified Gilbert stuff as well. One of the main lines on my new layout is specially configured to make running conventional Gilbert engines easy.


----------

