# Restoration Nightmares



## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

The Story:
This past weekend I went to a Train Show in Allentown. On my list of things to get was a passenger set for my Lionel Classics 400E Blue Comet (Standard Gauge). Usually they are way out of my price range. I stumbled across a table at the show that had a beat up set of apple green passenger cars (418 419 431 490) for a great price. I thought they were the same as the Blue Comet passenger cars so I bought them with the intention of restoring them as Blue Comet Cars.


































I soon realized they were the series before the Blue Comet cars and were slightly different. I then decided to just do a partial restore on them and keep them rugged but functional. The first thing I did was examine each car and I made a list of missing or broken parts. Then I wrote a check to George Tebolt (Usually use Train Tender, but George is the best with Prewar) to order the parts. Next I took one of the cars apart and cleaned the shells with dish detergent and water. Well, apparently that wasn't a good idea because this happened


















Clearly I need everyone's help and support through these difficult times


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

How much do you want for them? :smokin:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ed, I couldn't possibly put a price on all the frustration and joy I am going to experience in restoring these babies.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Well heck those are easy ones to do!
Me thinks you're going to need to get a bottle of the good stuff to calm your nerves!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

:laugh:Maybe that was the original color! You just washed away the dirt!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

A bottle is a good idea!
This is my very first restoration project. I am excited to do it, but also nervous. I plan on making a lot of mistakes. As far as the color goes, unfortunately not the original color. I just feel bad because I feel like I destroyed it.... if that makes sense???


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I was only trying to help :dunno:.....make your pain go away. 

I would paint them Blue Comet blue, and say go to hell to the rivet counters.


Nosy Ed would like to know how much they were? I like them, excellent candidates for restoration. :thumbsup:

Do the chairs pop out of them easy? Held on by tabs?
I'm jealous of your find. :thumbsup:
WHERE THEY IN JERSEY TOO!?

Edit, nope I see Allentown.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ed,
This car is the Diner car. There are 2 rows that are attached with tabs to the Car Body. The chairs and tables themselves are held onto the "floor" with tabs.




















I bought them in Allentown PA at Spring Thaw this past weekend.
I paid $250 for the 4 cars. These Standard Gauge Passenger Cars can get pricey.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They were in a bad way, and needed a good cleaning. You can't destroy those , but you can make them better. After your restoration and there in mint condition you'll enjoy them. And if you don't you can always weather them . Any way you look at it, its a win win. ( you should actually see the stuff I did destroy! ) .


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks 9911. I think this will be a great learning experience for me.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow that is a great deal, you know what the ones in great shape go for.

Love them. :thumbsup:

Put people in the seats and set the tables too, add some micro led lights as center piece candles. :thumbsup:

Do they have all the tanks underneath too?

WHAT COLOR? BLUE COMET BLUE? :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

What did the lower lettering say?

Not the Lionel Lines but on the bottom?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Here are some more pics

The 418 Pullman Parlor Car










The 419 Combine Parlor/Baggage Car










The 431 Diner Car










And the 490 Observation Car


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I am thinking Blue Comet Blue to match my Blue Comet Steamer.
As far as setting the table..... with help from you and everyone on here, I will even get you a seat in the Observation Car :laugh::thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I would rather be at the controls in the locomotive seat & blowing the whistle and sticking my head out the window smiling like a happy dog. 

Do you have any standard gauge track?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Yeah, I have a loop running around the perimeter of my layout.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They are fine looking cars. In case you haven't already thought about it, what if you paint them BLUE COMET BLUE?!?!


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

I have an idea.

Only one of the cars is damaged now, right? So you could get paint that matches the other colors, restore the damaged car, then follow through with your original plans on the others.

Just a thought.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The observation car missing the back end handrail?

Nice find, can't wait to see what they transform into. :thumbsup:

Later got to get my ZZZZzzzz's .
Early to bed early to rise, the life of Ed.

Did I mention I like your find? 


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Dave,
I am definitely thinking about that too.
However this is my thought process.
I could just clean them up and leave them as is and they would be functional and original.
However things would just look weird... like the car i would have to redo for example would stick out like a sore thumb. I would have to weather it. 
I am fairly new to this hobby and found myself in the category as a tinkerer. These Passenger trains would mean much more to me if I did my very first complete restoration on them, then if I left them alone. 
I usually rather have the "character" that goes along with these old trains, but the thrill of the unknown in the restoration process is winning.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ed, George has the end rail for this observation car available :thumbsup:


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Good point about the restored car not matching the others, though I'll bet two preschool-aged boys could weather your restored car to match the others pretty easily. (Mine could.) It might only take them one afternoon of rolling it across the living room, though I'd be afraid of the walls and furniture and woodwork getting weathered in the process.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Holy S&!T!
Call the Vatican! It's a Miracle!
So I was playing around with my cleaners (Goo Gone, WD40, 91% Isopropyl alcohol) and when I took a Qtip, dipped it into my bottle of Isopropyl Alcohol and rubbed it onto the roof of the car that I cleaned, it magically restored it to its former beauty! The paint was coming off onto the Qtip but look at the results!

The roof before ( The top one):










The roof after applying the alcohol to a little section:










The roof after applying to the entire roof:










A Miracle Right??? :thumbsup:


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I wonder if your detergent wash had removed paint from an older restoration and you uncovered the original paint?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I don't think so.... All signs point to original paint to me..
I have no explanation. If you look closely, the parts that had no paint on it still have no paint on it. weird


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice, maybe the detergent left behind a film that discolored it. Anyway who cares what happened, its fixed!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have used automotive wax on prewar cars and it worked very well. The cars are a 1941 set.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

It looks like the detergent raised/left a film. Be careful with the iso alcohol, though ... you don't want to be so aggressive with that that you'll remove the remaining paint.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Sounds like the detergent discolored the top layer of paint, and the alcohol either removed the residue, or enough of the paint to get rid of the discoloration.

Regardless of why it worked, it's good that it did. 

Regarding cleanup, here's an article (scroll to the end) that recommends a de-oxidizing automotive polish. Master Shine is one brand. http://www.ogaugehobbyist.com/wp/articles/lionel-maroon-8-freshening/

The results in the article are striking.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for that link Dave.. very helpful.
Since the miracle happened, I have decided to try to maintain the original paint. I am still not sure if this will work in the end, but I will give it a try. 
Does anybody have any tips on how not to scrap away the paint when bending tabs?
The only trick I know is to slide a business card underneath, but I do not know what to do when you can't. Also some of the larger tabs are being very stubborn! I tried heating them with my soldering gun but I can not seem to wedge a screwdriver between the base and the tab to pry it up. 
I need some thoughts and wisdom please!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Now, that's a RESTORATION project. Makes my cleanup of the flood victims look like a simple wash job! :laugh:

Good luck with these, I'll enjoy following the restoration process.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Re: the tabs ...

To unbend, start the "lift" process of the tab using a very sharp chisel as your pry tool, bevel side of the chisen down, against the car frame. Once you've started the lift, you can switch to a flathead screwdriver (with dulled edges, to minimize paint marring) for the remainder of the lift. I've found that full-contact, even pressure underneath the flat of the tab helps to minimize tab damage (metal, paint). Inevitably, though, some paint will suffer.

After restoration work, I bend tabs back into position with a wood block (rather than a metal tool). Again, some paint loss may occur ... plan on touchup work.

I always try to get touchup paint underneath the rebend tab, to avoid long-term rusting. For this, I put a small dab of paint near the edge of a piece of wax paper, and then slide the thin wax paper underneath the bend tab. The paint will wick onto the underside of the tab.

Hope that helps a bit,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This is a first for dishwashing liquid. It must of been strong and contained some bleach? Maybe? I use a liquid hand soap for cleaning and a soft brush. On Prewar paint I use a polishing compound and remove oxidized paint and dirt in one swoop. Rubing compound if a serious condition exists. 

It doesn't matter if you plan on strip and paint.

The secret with tabs is to bend only halfway and spring it for clearance. Sometimes you may have to straighten a side to get it back in.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

This is the soap I used 










As far as the other cars go I am going to try to keep the original paint. However I still want to clean them up.. I guess I am going to use hot water a toothbrush and then some of this polishing compound. Tman what kind should I buy?
Thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd use some different soap, the orange extracts in that are acid, probably what is creating the film.

Try the Palmolive green stuff, it's very mild.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I use a small amount of unsented laundry detergent ( don't know if it is the correct stuff to use or not). Is the polishing compound the same as for the older cars? Takes off a small bit of paint and redistributes it?. Then a coat of wax to shine it up. Its amazing how new tec. ( clear coat) can get us to forget the basic things we once did.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I am going to try the green palmolive dish soap and water to clean and something like this to polish them


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## newB (Feb 3, 2011)

Hellgate said:


> This is the soap I used
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you used the worst thing possible. if you won't wash your car with dish detergent, why wash a train?

and please don't say that you wash your car with it... dish detergent has harsh grease cutters and surfactants that can ruin paint, as you noticed.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hellgate said:


> I am going to try the green palmolive dish soap and water to clean and something like this to polish them
> 
> View attachment 25550


I'd look for the pink stuff, it's finer. You don't want anything too aggressive.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hellgate said:


> Since the miracle happened, I have decided to try to maintain the original paint.
> I need some thoughts and wisdom please!


Blue Comet Blue
Blue Comet Blue
Blue Comet Blue

Watch the watch, swing slowly back and forth,
you are getting sleepy,
sleep, sleep, deep sleep,
When I snap my fingers you will only want to paint them,
Blue Comet Blue

SNAP. 

They are all scratched up rusty and gungy & dirty.

Blue Comet Blue......it will look great behind the Locomotive. :thumbsup:
If not Blue Comet Blue start saving for another set for the Locomotive.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I put the wheels and trucks in an EnvapoRust Bath for a day:

Here is the before Picture:










And after:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I never heard of that do they sell it in quarts?
All I can find on it is gallons.

Do they sell that in a store....like Walmart?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You can gently bend the sides of that truck to remove the wheels/axles for more detailed cleaning, if you want.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Amazing stuff that Evapo-Rust, no?  One thing, when you remove rust under paint, it bubbles like you see there. 

Once you take the ScotchBrite Dremel wheel to them, they'll look like new.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

After seeing that I have to get some! I know some people here use it but after seeing what it can do. Wow.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I only recently discovered Evapo-Rust, and I'm a convert! It's truly amazing stuff.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Harbor Freight sells it, if you have one of those nearby. I think Auto Zone may, also. One of the big auto parts chains does, and I think it's them. It wouldn't surprise me if Pep Boys had it too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Dave Farquhar said:


> Harbor Freight sells it, if you have one of those nearby. I think Auto Zone may, also. One of the big auto parts chains does, and I think it's them. It wouldn't surprise me if Pep Boys had it too.



Thanks.


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## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

In my limited experience with prewar paint, some of it is tougher than hell and some of it will come off with just water. I have a prewar bridge that paint stripper wouldn't touch the original paint on. While I have a prewar station that the water I was washing it in started to run red with the red paint. I wouldn't use soap at all. Use warm water to get the easiest dirt off and then go right to the paint polish. It will remove the dirt that has become part of the top layer of paint. It will also remove some color so go gently. I like Maguire's Swirl X. It is milder than that green polish and it is a better product. The Swirl X has some wax in it which will leave a nice finish when done. If you wanted to go with a product that does not contain wax then Maguire's Scratch X would work. You would have to wax afterward with a seperate product. Those cars look great. A little clean up and polish is all they need imho. 

Scott


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for the replies
I get my EnvapoRust from Harbor Freight.... With a 20% off coupon.
I love it

I took the wheels apart and cleaned them up with a wire wheel and a Cratex wheel
Here is what I ended up with










Not perfect by any means, but we aren't going for perfect


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Srook
I am going to try the meguiars Swirl X if I can find it. I did some googling and from what some people have said, the Big Box store like Walmart and Target are no longer carrying it. Although on meguiars website, it says my local Target has it even though it isn't listed on Targets website..... I will swing by tomorrow and see


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That truck looks 1,000% better than when you started!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hellgate,

Ditto on John's 1000% comment. HUGE improvement. I've never tried EvapoRust, but it's NOW on my "to do" list.

Thanks!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Why is Evapo-Rust *not* on your "to do" list TJ? Are you sure that wasn't supposed to be a *now*?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Oop! Duhh ... your right ... "now", not "not". I'll edit.

Thanks!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I just bought some stock on the company that makes EnvapoRust.
The wheels look great now. :thumbsup:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm actually the president of EnvapoRust. All this posting is just a way to boost my company :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hellgate said:


> I'm actually the president of EnvapoRust. All this posting is just a way to boost my company :thumbsup:



Well then it better work or I will sue you for all your trains. 

Something tells me they are going to sell a lot more, what did you get a gallon?
Where did you find a coupon?
Looks like good stuff I have something else in mind for it, not just the trains.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Now that I've discovered it, I have a number of uses for it as well. I have taken rust off stuff the hard way, this is the easy way.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ok so I got some Meguiars Swirl X, and put the car back together after cleaning. It still looks dirty, but I don't know what else to do. I am just waiting on George Tebolt for the parts I need to complete this car (couplers, a journal box, an End that I am going to have to paint, steps, and the the window material


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I know what to do but you don't want to hear it. :smokin:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Does it involve the word "BLUE"!?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The other day when we were discussing blue comet blue I was painting my 1688e, it almost, accidently got painted blue comet blue.


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## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

I see what you mean on the roof, the right side looks dirty and probably is. Don't be afraid to really rub the Swirl X in. You should be able to remove that discoloration. You will be removing paint but we are talking about microns. The Swirl X is not very aggressive, which is good. You might also want to try a polishing wheel on a dremel with some Swirl X on it. This is messy, but the dremel will do 10x the work you can do by hand. If it still doesn't come out then the discoloration goes all the way through the paint. I would give it another vigorous application before breaking out the blue paint.

Scott


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks Scott I will try it out. By the way, I found Swirl X at Auto Zone.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

If anyone runs into a 408E for sale let me know! I will need one to match
Thanks!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hellgate said:


> If anyone runs into a 408E for sale let me know! I will need one to match
> Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 25613




http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920s-Lione...978189?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3ccf4d28cd


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Get these,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OUTSTANDING...058682?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5650479fba

Then you can paint them blue.:thumbsup:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks Ed... Can I borrow some cash?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hellgate said:


> Thanks Ed... Can I borrow some cash?


24% interest?
Weekly?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

AHH the Jersey discount :laugh::thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

FYI, for any future comet blue paint discussion ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7453

The Krylon gloss Bahama Sea spraypaint is a good match for prewar Comet blue.

TJ


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I was reading an article today and I officially learned I am not restoring these cars.... I am conserving these cars... I am in the conservation business!
Anyways, I got the parts I ordered from George Tebolt in the mail yesterday, so it shouldn't be long now.
In other news, the green palmolive also leaves that film or whatever it is... and I am getting better with the Swirl X.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Question: Do you think I could run a train through the dishwasher?


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

I wouldn't. Hopefully the pressurized water and detergent wouldn't harm the paint, but I don't think I would want to take a bet on it. I also wouldn't want to put something with lead paint on it in the same thing I wash my dishes in.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Good point on the lead paint:thumbsup:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Dishwashers are very harsh. I have some good cooking knives , they never go into the dishwasher it dulls the blades. I dont think a train would do too well eaither. Maybe some car wash soap or try laundry detergent ( just a small bit). I haven't had any problems with that so far.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I think what I need is a mini power sprayer... There are a lot of nooks and crannies that I can not get to with the toothbrush... especially the swivel chairs.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

What about a can of compressed air, like they use for cleaning out computer components?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

We are talking about 80 years of dirt and grime.... 
I am just being surgical with the toothbrush and get what I can.
A lot of it is "part" of the paint now


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hellgate said:


> We are talking about 80 years of dirt and grime....
> I am just being surgical with the toothbrush and get what I can.
> A lot of it is "part" of the paint now


Run them through oven cleaner heavy duty, then through the dishwasher, then paint them a nice be-uuutifull shade of Blue Comet Blue, please do two tone them. :thumbsup:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Find me a cheap beat up Blue Comet set and it will be GO TIME! :thumbsup:


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## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

> Maybe some car wash soap or try laundry detergent


Laundry detergent dissolves prewar paint. Only use it if you plan to repaint. It would be interesting to know exactly what is in prewar paint. It will dissolve in laundry detergent and some of it paint stripper won't even make a mark on. I wouldn't use any soap as the dirt you are trying to remove is ground into the paint anyway. You need to remove the top layer of paint/grime to get it out. If I were to use soap it would be mild like Dawn and don't use too much.

Scott


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Castol super clean or Zep purple cleaner will remove all the grime right off of them and leave no residue! It might even melt the paint right off of it too!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'm not sure but I think this train is pre war ( or around there). Make no mistake these results might be atypical. The car was bathed in all laundry detergent. And dried with a white terry towel. Notice no paint came off on the towel. This might be just for the trains I have; I can't explain it. For me it worked. Dawn is a very good degreaser. It is used by many to take oil off things. ( think oil spills birds , people etc. ) as for trains I haven't used it yet but I have used laundry detergent. All feee and clear. Just a drop. And strook you may be right. Who knows what these things were painted with. Every train may be different.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Hellgate, forgot to mention to change the title to conservation nightmares. That might quell big eds blue comet blue. ( it would look good though). Blue comet blue!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Yeah, I think I would need the help of big brother on that one.
Big Ed is probably dreaming of Blue Comets right now........ actually, I think I found a picture of Big Ed online









Could it be??


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ed !!!


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> Who knows what these things were painted with. Every train may be different.


Yes, they are. Postwar red, for example, will come off with just water. Speaking from experience.

I don't have firsthand experience with that shade of green, and based on the responses so far, it doesn't sound like anyone else here does either.

It's always best to err on the side of caution. You can always come back to the project later, after learning something, and make it better based on that new knowledge. But if you damage something due to inexperience, the damage is usually permanent.

Now, that said... It might be worthwhile to pick up a junker 800-series O gauge car in that color to experiment on. That way, if you damage something, you haven't damaged anything you can't replace.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Cool PJ's, they have feet too. :thumbsup:

Now if they only had blue comet trains on it. 


I only use Dawn dish detergent, never had a problem, but I don't have many prewar tin trains.
I use it on my pickup truck also. :thumbsup:


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

After you run something through the dishwasher, how do you get the water out of the inside of the wheels?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I blow mine off with an air compresser when I wash them.


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## DK81 (Nov 25, 2012)

Great tips in this thread! 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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