# Expansion



## jlc41

Guys I need your help and suggestion for a possible expansion. This is my current layout. Not sure where to break in to existing trackage. I do not want to do anything on the tunnel sides of the layout. Every thing between the tunnels and bridges is elevated. Sorry about it being sideways I can't figure out how to rotate it.
View attachment img122.pdf


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## DonR

Give us some idea of the space you have available
for your expansion. That would be one of
the main factors.

Don


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## MtRR75

Since the tunnels and bridges are off-limits for the extension, the most obvious places to cut in are the three curved sections of track at each end of the outer loop (just after exiting the tunnels). You could replace any of these curved sections with a turnout -- using the branched side of the turnout to maintain the curve in your outer loop. Which curves you patch into depends on the shape of your extension.

All of this assumes that there is room for the extension on the side without the bridges and tunnels. If not, can the whole table be moved or rotated?


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## jlc41

I have space for an additional 4x8, and yes the table can be rotated.


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## time warp

If you want to expand to lengthen the mainline run, you almost certainly would need to tie in to the existing main as has already been mentioned. Another idea would be to add a branch line and have it tie in to the existing layout via interchange.


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## MtRR75

jlc41 said:


> I have space for an additional 4x8, and yes the table can be rotated.


If you want two 4x8 tables, the most common arrangement is an L-shaped area. But you need access to all sides of the layout in order to reach everything. There is also one spot in the center where the two tables meet that will have about a 30" reach -- which is borderline, depending on the length of your arms -- and whether that area contains track or just scenery.


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## jlc41

TW am not sure what you mean by interchange?? I am trying to decide weather to "L" off the engine house side or the town side. Either way, do I open both the outer and inner tracks and add turn outs or just the outer track??


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## time warp

Referencing what MTRR mentioned about the reach(accessibility) it looks to me like your best bet would be to L off near the engine house area.
I can post a sketch later, with a suggestion or two.
You may be better off considering alternatives, like maybe 4x6 with a narrower connecting section. Just a thought .


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> TW am not sure what you mean by interchange?? I am trying to decide weather to "L" off the engine house side or the town side. Either way, do I open both the outer and inner tracks and add turn outs or just the outer track??


jlc, you can also consider a "T" instead of an "L". Whether or not you want to open up both mainlines onto the expansion or just the outer line depends heavily on what your operations expectations will be for that expansion piece.

For example, if you want your expansion scene to be a more rural / scenic scene and an industry or two, then maybe only 1 track mainline makes the most sense. But if you want to have heavy mainline action on the expansion then expanding both mainlines onto it would make sense.

I think it would help for you to "frame" a vision for this expansion first, and then put the track logic into it from there.

So, what are some of your thoughts on scene / environment?


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## DonR

I agree with the suggestions of creating an L shape.

I would, however, extend only the outer track and
use the space within the resulting loop for additional
industry spurs and possibly another yard. You have
no doubt already discovered how quickly a yard
can fill with cars.

One possibility that would make trackwork a little
less complicated would be to create a reverse loop
on the new section. That would give you the ability
to turnaround a whole train. You would have only
one turnout to install in existing track, then add
another in the new track for the return.
But, you would need
a reverse loop controller if you are DCC, and a
series of switches if you are DC.

Don


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## jlc41

TW, I look forward to see what you draw up. Am also thinking the engine side for the break in. 
Overkast, that's my dilemma, I like every thing. Houses, farms, industries, freight terminals, yards and switching etc. I can see why folks do full basement layouts. I know I have to whittle my choices, will see what I settle on. 
DonR, how right you are on the yard comment. That is why I need the expansion which would allow for more activity to move trains on the layout. Right now when my grandson visits he gets to run two trains and that's it do to the lack of trackage to store and move trains about easily. I will have to research the reversing loop you mentioned. I am running DCC. Thanks every, one for your comments and ideas. Lots to think about.


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## CTValleyRR

I would expand off what is the upper left corner (after rotating to landscape orientation).

Definitely give serious consideration to a reversing loop of some kind so that you can run trains in either direction.


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## jlc41

CT, do you mean the town side? Because after rechecking and rethinking this that is where I will break in. The reason being the outer track is a bit tight in the curve with the inner and this is an opportunity to correct it. I will have to study the track layout more because I do not see the need for a reversing loop??? What am I missing??


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## time warp

Here are a couple of ideas on paper, just for examples. Please excuse the rough artistry.
The first one continues from the original outer curve, the original outer route is changed but the inner track remains. This is shown as more of a rural area maybe with some hills.
The reverse curve is required to allow the new trackage to meet up with the original trackwork. The yard tracks are just for rough ideas, and the large curve I figured at 20" radius. Part of the old mainline becomes a siding. Also the dotted line indicates an optional reverse loop section.









The second shows a rough idea for a branch line with an interchange. The serpentine route would fit the space using 15" or 18" curves, and the runaround track at the far end would allow some interesting switching possibilities. The mainline freight would drop/ pick up freight cars on the 2 interchange tracks, the captive branch locomotive would move cars between the industrial area on the branch and the interchange. My branch line operates this way, in a less elaborate manner.


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## jlc41

Thanks for the drawings TW. I now know what an interchange is. I also see the need for a reversing loop. I like the 3 rail yard. When I enter the expansion I would like to carry on with some houses, maybe 3 or 4 then get into some farming, industry, freight rail and terminal. What do you think??


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## time warp

Based on what I , and everyone else has watched you do, I'm sure you will translate your idea into an exceptional piece of work.


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## MtRR75

jlc41 said:


> I also see the need for a reversing loop.


The problem with the reversing loop is that clockwise trains on the main loop can be reversed to counterclockwise. But there is no way to reverse counterclockwise trains back to clockwise. There are five possible solutions to this problem.

(1) Add a 2nd reversing loop. This would require major changes to your layout -- which are probably not practical.
(2) Add a wye. However the length of the wye limits the length of the train that you can turn around. And wyes take up a fair amount of space.
(3) Add a turntable. But that will only turn locos -- which might be all you need. But turntables take up a lot of space.
(4) If you are running diesels, consist them tail to tail, and use a run-around track to move them from one end of a train to the other -- the way that real railroads do it.
(5) Back the train through the reversing loop. If your trains are short and your track work good, you might get away with this.


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## time warp

MtRR75 said:


> The problem with the reversing loop is that clockwise trains on the main loop can be reversed to counterclockwise. But there is no way to reverse counterclockwise trains back to clockwise. There are five possible solutions to this problem.
> 
> (1) Add a 2nd reversing loop. This would require major changes to your layout -- which are probably not practical.
> (2) Add a wye. However the length of the wye limits the length of the train that you can turn around. And wyes take up a fair amount of space.
> (3) Add a turntable. But that will only turn locos -- which might be all you need. But turntables take up a lot of space.
> (4) If you are running diesels, consist them tail to tail, and use a run-around track to move them from one end of a train to the other -- the way that real railroads do it.
> (5) Back the train through the reversing loop. If your trains are short and your track work good, you might get away with this.


#4 is where the answer is. If you look to the prototype, the objective is to move the freight. They aren't going to turn the whole train( passenger train shuffling/turning is a separate issue), that's really more of a model RR thing.
Sometimes it might be best to build the line, then work out the logistics. 
I personally don't care for reverse loops, but that's just me.( No offence to anyone).


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## CTValleyRR

Doing most of my operating on my son's "One Way Only" layout, I really miss the ability to turn a train (or a loco) without using the HOG method. Like time warp says, its a personal preference.

Which is why I said "give serious consideration to", not "you need".


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## jlc41

TW, thanks for the kind words along with everyone else's input. I'll have to consider what to do.


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## jlc41

Okay guys this is what I have come up with. Please help, comments, ideas and suggestions are needed. Sorry I don't know how to rotate the pic.
View attachment img124.pdf


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## Overkast

The pic isn't showing up for me on my phone. Not sure if anyone else is having an issue seeing it?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## time warp

Interesting! Great that you've included nice passing sidings, they'll also work as run around tracks to give a lot of flexibility for switching.
You've managed to include a wye and 2 reverse loops. Wow!
Is the trackage through the middle a branch?


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## CTValleyRR

Well, you've certainly got a nice variety of track there, which will enable you to run trains for a long time. I would personally have fewer loops and more sidings and industries, but I'm sure that just reflects differing philosophies on how we want to operate our layouts.

My only real concern is access. Can you reach everything, both to lay track and to rescue the inevitable derailed train?


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## jlc41

The thing is I don't know what am doing. So your inputs are very important. I do want industries and sidings. So what do I need to do??


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## DonR

First, with a layout that large and complex you should
install the DCC control system. You'll find it near
mandatory since you have 3 'reverse loop/Wye' situations.

Since it is a large basically single track main you should
add passing sidings along each side. Again, DCC is
to be used so you can have 2 trains on that single track
but running in opposite directions, one clock wise, the
other counter clockwise, and passing each other on
the passing sidings.

You have some nice small yards. You should make
one of them with more tracks. You won't believe how
fast yard tracks fill up with cars over time.

Also, as mentioned, see where you can add more
spur tracks for businesses using rail freight services.
You'll find that switching the yards and spurs are
fun and at times very challenging.

Now, as to the 'reverse loop/wye' discussion. Redraw
your layout using RED for the right rail, and Black for the other.
When you find the RED rail is contacting the BLACK
rail at a turnout, you've found a 'reverse loop'.
Review your layout and make any changes you want
then we'll discuss where to place insulated joiners
to create 'isolated sections' that will be powered
through DCC automatic reverse loop controllers.

Don


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## DonR

Overkast said:


> The pic isn't showing up for me on my phone. Not sure if anyone else is having an issue seeing it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


It's a PDF file, do cell phones have an app for that?

Don


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## time warp

I got it on my phone


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## time warp

You might want to eliminate the reverse curve section through the center and move your proposed yard area to the vicinity of where you normally operate the layout from. Run your yard tracks into the large open area in the center of the space to give more length and car capacity.


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## The New Guy

What do you have planned/imagined for the large area in the middle of the new leg?

How committed are you to the idea of switching?

 yards are overrated. 

See there, I could have started a firestorm by stating the truth that _yards are the domain of nerdy dweebs that should get out of the basement more_, but didn't. 

The problem with yards as stated in this thread is "they fill up fast". 

That's not a yard, that's a shed. If you plan to be prototypical so be it have a yard. Most times it's just staging, the real switching takes place at the industries you have scattered around the layout. Stations and freight houses are more efficient uses of your space. Put your storage off track either on a shelf and let the HOG switch things, or and preferably build a fiddle yard on drawer glides on a second level, subterranean style.

This will keep the actual train works simpler, easier to work on, less expensive, and typically for newer RRers more fun.

Lastly, this isn't a dig at anyone just my opinion: DCC while great is an unnecessary frill like whipped cream on pie. it's nice, but it's not pie.

YMMV


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## time warp

I do agree. I always recommend a 3 track double ended yard. That way you can build trains or use it for staging. Make sure it has a long lead though.
No offence to anyone, really, but they all too often turn into junk yards or storage bins. Not always, but often.
BUT, if you want a stub end yard, make sure the lead is long enough to work a train and allow plenty of length on the ladder tracks


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## jlc41

Okay, I am on DCC, the area next to the original layout is going to be more houses, a small neighborhood. I made some changes. Not sure if the passing sidings should be inner and the industrial tracks to the outside of layout or as is shown. This is where am getting confused between spurs and sidings. Also do I merge the yard tracks to the inner loop???
View attachment img125.pdf


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## Overkast

DonR said:


> It's a PDF file, do cell phones have an app for that?
> 
> Don


Thanks Don... I use Tapatalk on my phone instead of the web browser so perhaps it's a feature incompatibility of Tapatalk.

jlc, I do see the track plan now and I think it's a really nice design. I do notice one flaw though in the directional reversing situation. On your main layout, all your trains traveling in a clockwise direction have a few opportunities to reverse direction to counter-clockwise, however it does not apply otherwise. Any trains on your layout traveling in a counter-clockwise direction don't have any opportunities to reverse direction to clockwise unless you back them up through a reverse section.

I propose a few options to remedy this in the below pic:









Required (red): Add a "Y" turnout - this is a necessary piece for all the options
Option 1: Could be a bit tight here so you may need to re-work the yard layout a bit to make it fit
Option 2: Probably the most feasible option with the existing layout plan / minimal track alteration to design
Option 3: Probably too tight of a curve for this space so may require some alteration of the track layout, but you get the idea

**EDIT* *Ugh, just saw you posted a revision layout. Oh well...

**EDIT 2** My original post mixed up the clockwise / counter-clockwise directional situation (I had them backwards). Edited post text to correct that.


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## jlc41

Overkast, thanks for your input. Please comment on the revision also. Like I said I not sure of what am doing.


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## time warp

The revision looks good, J! Don't get stressed about it, it's just like trying on shoes until you find some that fit the best! You've got enough track work and sidings designed in that this layout should be a lot of fun to operate for many many years.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Overkast, thanks for your input. Please comment on the revision also. Like I said I not sure of what am doing.


Sure thing jlc. You still have the same problematic situation with reversing on the revision, so I marked up a few spots where you could rectify the issue:









You will need to have 2 "X" track crossing sections (one of them over the yard lead) in this design to complete the reversing of trains...

I must say, I think I do prefer the previous iteration over this one though. I like track plans that have more of an "organic" feel where gentle curves follow a natural terrain curvature. Long sections of straight track feel boring to me (personally) and not natural / prototypical. Also I feel like the yard in this revision is pretty massive and eats up too much real estate and will severely reduce your terrain opportunities in the middle.


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## time warp

Is anybody keeping count of the number of wyes on this plan and the number of reverse loops?


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## Overkast

time warp said:


> Is anybody keeping count of the number of wyes on this plan and the number of reverse loops?


Lol. Yeah, SCARM is... in the parts list


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## CTValleyRR

I agree with Overkast -- you would improve the look tremendously if everything weren't in rigid straight lines. This is rare on real railroads. Many yards have some curvature, despite the parallel tracks (NS's Enola Yard outside Harrisburg, PA for one, follows the curve of the Susquehanna River).

The yard problem could be fixed by adding gentle curves so that the main yard tracks lie parallel to the original spur, or more closely to it. Speaking of yards, you will find a double ended yard (where the loco can pull in, drop a trailing train, and proceed out by pulling forward). This should not be too hard to do.

The other suggestion I have is that a layout of this complexity just begs you to ditch the sectional track and use flex track. This will open up your geometry quite a bit, allowing you to use curves that go where you want them to, rather than being limited to the standard radii of sectional track.


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## Overkast

CTValleyRR said:


> Many yards have some curvature, despite the parallel tracks (NS's Enola Yard outside Harrisburg, PA for one, follows the curve of the Susquehanna River).
> 
> The yard problem could be fixed by adding gentle curves so that the main yard tracks lie parallel to the original spur, or more closely to it.


jlc, to accent what CTValleyRR said here, that's exactly what I did on my layout and I feel like it's going to be one of the most interesting scenes on my layout when done:










If you look at the bottom stretch of my layout, you'll see I intentionally made the double-track mainline follow a gradual curve instead of a straight line like I did on the top. Then I built a yard and had that yard follow that same gentle curving contour with the mainlines. I found that these types of gradual / gentle curves are best achieved by designing using stretches of flex track.


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## DonR

You seemed uncertain of some terminology.

A PASSING SIDING is connected to the main line
at both ends. It makes it possible to have a clockwise
train 'waiting' IN the passing siding as a counter clockwise
train moves past. It is also used in switching. It permits
the switcher to get on either end of a freight car in
the Siding. Sometimes you must push a car into
a siding with the front of the switcher. Other times you
back a car in with the rear of the switcher.

A Yard can have any number of tracks feeding off
of a ladder which can be dead end or they
can be connected at the other end with another
ladder track.

A SPUR TRACK is often dead end. Most industries
and other rail freight users are located on Spurs, sometimes
more than one. Two of my spurs has 3 industries..

A Passing siding can be on either outside or inside of
your main. The same with spur tracks. It is your
decision.

Don


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## jlc41

Thank you all for the feed back. Back to the drawing board. Overkast if you are using Scram how do you add buildings, and how do you get it to post as a pic instead of a jpg??? I don't see flex track in Scram, but that is what I will use on the layout.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Thank you all for the feed back. Back to the drawing board. Overkast if you are using Scram how do you add buildings, and how do you get it to post as a pic instead of a jpg??? I don't see flex track in Scram, but that is what I will use on the layout.


To add buildings, you actually have to construct them using 3D shapes. I usually don't put a lot of detail into this feature, because it is manual and tedious and thus time-consuming. I usually just find out the length x width x height specs of the model structure I plan to use and then make a rectangle to those dimensions so I know how much space it will take up, and then I can plan around it. That final image of my layout is actually a screen capture I took and then embellished in Photoshop (because it's easier than trying to output a file from SCARM).

You can find the 3D objects in the "Figures" section of the SCARM Library, which is at the very bottom of the list. Here's a screen cap:








As far as Flex Track goes, what Track Code / Library are you using in SCARM again?


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## jlc41

Thanks Overkast for the reply. I see what I can do on the building sizes. I thought the same thing using the foot print. Am using Lifelike code 100 by Walthers.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Thanks Overkast for the reply. I see what I can do on the building sizes. I thought the same thing using the foot print. Am using Lifelike code 100 by Walthers.


jlc, do you mean the Shinohara Code 100? I don't see a Lifelike Code 100 in the Walthers list...


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## jlc41

It's Walthers Lifelike 100.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> It's Walthers Lifelike 100.


Do you see the screen cap in my previous post? I don't see a "Lifelike 100" under the Walthers track. Do you have a different SCARM than me??? I have the latest version 0.9.33 beta.


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## jlc41

Yes I saw it. I am using the Life Like HO NS just to be able to get a flex track option.


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## time warp

I guess I'm stupid or something, I never imagined track planning could be turned in to such hard work! I've been laying out curves and figuring easements and laying out track arrays most of my life with a string and a pencil. Geesh!


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## The New Guy

time warp said:


> I've been laying out curves and figuring easements and laying out track arrays most of my life with a string and a pencil.


Doesn't that mess up the screen?


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## time warp

The New Guy said:


> Doesn't that mess up the screen?





:lol_hitting:


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## jlc41

TW, you are right. I did my 1st layout using Magic's no plan plan. I think I will continue with that approach. With everyone's input I have a good idea of what I want to do. So the construction and ordering begins. I will post as I go along on the expansion of the PCJ&B RR. Thanks everyone for your comments, ideas and help.


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## time warp

jlc41 said:


> TW, you are right. I did my 1st layout using Magic's no plan plan. I think I will continue with that approach. With everyone's input I have a good idea of what I want to do. So the construction and ordering begins. I will post as I go along on the expansion of the PCJ&B RR. Thanks everyone for your comments, ideas and help.


I gotta say, you all have some great ideas and advice. I'm always impressed by the suggestions listed here.


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## jlc41

OK, I finally took the first step towards the expansion project. I had to unglue about 3' of flex track to both insert a Peco SL 88 right hand turn out and adjust a to tight turn radius. Boy am I glad I used the diluted white glue to adhere the flex track to the road bed. After about 5 minutes of good soaking I was able to get a putty knife under the track ties and whala up came the track and ballast. So now I wait the delivery of the turn out.


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## time warp

Where's your HO work crew? You need warning flares and a work train. :laugh:

Glad to see you moving ahead, keep us posted!


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## jlc41

TW, some how or other they got hooked up with Magics crew in Vegas and they are having trouble making bail. So it will be a while and slow going for now. I'll keep every one posted.


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## Magic

The layout is coming along nicely and good luck with the expansion. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

And that's not the story my guys are telling. :dunno: 

Magic


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## jlc41

Thanks Magic, I get a lot of inspiration and ideas from you and a bunch of others on the forum. However my guys say they didn't know what your guys were getting them into, funny how that works.


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## jlc41

Ok guy's my crew finally got back from Vegas and are ready to go. So here are some preliminary layouts. I would like your opinions and suggestions on how to make it more efficient. I checked and it looks like I have a reversing loop which I will have to address. These are rough layouts using different track to get a better picture, so don't let that trow you. Thanks in advance.


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## Mark VerMurlen

I can't quite tell if picture 1 and 2 are the same layout or not. I think they're the same, but I can't be certain. Pictures 3 and 4 show 2 reverse loops, but they are both in the same "direction", so they don't do anything more than add complexity and a passing siding really.

The general rule of thumb that I've heard for reverse loops is that you want the reversing section to be about the same length as your maximum train length. In the first layout, it looks like you have 3-5 ft. of length in the cross-over track that can be isolated for reversing. In the last 2 layouts, there isn't that much length unless you start including some of the spur/yard track, which I think would make things problematic.

If it were me, I'd go with the first track plan and perhaps alter it to get a reverse loop going the "other direction" by adding another cross-over in the middle.

Mark


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## time warp

I like #4, build it and figure out the operations later. Might give you some interesting switching and operational posibilities.


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## jlc41

Hey Mark, pic's 1&2 are the same as are 3&4. Am not sure what you mean by changing the direction of the reversing loop??? 
TW, I like the cross over in 3&4. I think it adds to the interest of the layout. I have to order some more track and switches before I can go any further. I am also waiting to see more comments and suggestions.


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## Mark VerMurlen

jlc41 said:


> Am not sure what you mean by changing the direction of the reversing loop???


Mentally picture a train going counterclockwise on your layout. By taking your reversing loop, you can now get it going clockwise. But unless you have some other reversing loop in your old layout, there isn't any way to reverse it once again to get it going counterclockwise again. Does that make sense? Hope I've explained it better.

I think you'd have to add a section of track like shown in the red line below to be able to reverse the opposite direction.









Mark


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## Overkast

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Mentally picture a train going counterclockwise on your layout. By taking your reversing loop, you can now get it going clockwise. But unless you have some other reversing loop in your old layout, there isn't any way to reverse it once again to get it going counterclockwise again. Does that make sense? Hope I've explained it better.
> 
> I think you'd have to add a section of track like shown in the red line below to be able to reverse the opposite direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


Mark is right. This is the same point and problem I was trying to address back on page 4. You may want to consider correcting it before you get too far. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jlc41

Thanks Mark, Overkast, I think I got it. Back to the drawing board. See what I can do, oh well.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Thanks Mark, Overkast, I think I got it. Back to the drawing board. See what I can do, oh well.


Nah man, it's not like you've got to go back to the drawing board! What Mark drew up there is the easiest and perfect solution... you just need one more "X" crossing and 2 more turnouts and you're golden.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jlc41

Ok let's see if we can get it done. Thanks again.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Ok let's see if we can get it done. Thanks again.


My pleasure. Hey do you have an updated pic of your final track plan you can post? I think I'm seeing one more area that might need to be addressed, but I'm not 100% sure based on the photos...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jlc41

Overkast, that's my problem am not sure how to get there. Have to look at more layouts. Thanks for your help.


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## time warp

I disagree. Looks to me like if you're using hood units the double reverse loop is a non issue. There are double ended sidings on the right side that could serve as runarounds to "rearrange" the consist.
The double reverse would be okay if you wanted continuous run in both directions.


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## jlc41

TW, what do you mean by hood units???


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## time warp

Sorry, hood units would be locomotives like GP or SD's, or GE U series that have narrow "hoods" with walkways along the sides.
Covered wagons, or carbody diesels, are like F7, E8, or Alco FA diesels with a full width body.
Hoods are great for bi directional operation, Carbodies don't work out so well in reverse operation because of poor visibility.


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## jlc41

Thanks TW. That is what most of my locos are. 4 diesels, 3 steam and 1 full body. Now what about the revers loops, am having a problem understanding whats the issue. I know the polarity has to change. But does this allows for the train to go from clockwise to counter clockwise travel??


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## time warp

The basic principle is that the rest of the layout has to change direction as your train goes through the insulated reversing section.
A common misconception is that somehow you have to change the polarity of the reversing section as your train goes through it.
But since you are using DCC, this operates a different way and one of the other members here would probably be better suited at helping you understand that.
Beyond that the only other issue or decision you have to make is how reversing that train on that section of track is going to influence how it operates on the rest of the layout. Whether it affects the pattern of your switching Maneuvers or the way the sidings work.


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## jlc41

Thanks TW. Here's where am at so far. I am thinking of putting a diagonal from the lower left to the connection from the original layout.


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## Lemonhawk

Only the reversing section changes phase, rest of the track stays the same. As you approach the isolated reversing section if its not in phase with the current section the loco is one as the loco bridges the gap it causes a short that the reverser detects and quickly switches the phase to agree. As you are coming out of the the reversing section again when the loco crosses the gap to your main section a short will occur that the reverser detects and then switches the phase of the reverse section so the revers section agrees with the main line the loco is entering .. yes it switches the phase loco is basically setting on. The beauty of DCC, its just a communication path to the loco so swapping phase to the loco does not cause any action to be taken by the loco.


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## CTValleyRR

The way I see it, if you're coming off of your previous layout, you want to be able to take the expansion loop in either direction, then in turn be able to go back to your original layout in either direction. 

You're running a lot of power that wouldn't (prototypically) operate in reverese. There are several options you could do. I would go back to pix 3 &4 from yesterday and just add another track at the top which connects back across.


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## jlc41

Ok guy's an update with some more detail. The black and tan are roads. The blue are potential industries. Every thing will be flex track. CTValley does this get what you are talking about??? Thanks everyone for your patients I can at times be dense, just ask my better half.


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## DonR

The guys have exactly described how the reverse controller
works. I am a little concerned about the size of your
WYE. Recalling that loco wheels cause a short when
they pass over the insulated joiners, if you have a long
loco consist, you will have loco wheels over the entry and
the exit joiners at the same time. This would create
a short circuit.

What you'll need to do is determine how you
can provide a longer isolated section to avoid
this.

I don't see enough of the layout to be able to
make any suggestions along that line.

Don


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## jlc41

DonR, I will post up a better pic of that area of the layout.


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## jlc41

DonR let me know if this is good enough. Thanks


----------



## time warp

Thanks for clarifying the reverse section, guys. My reference info was for DC, and I knew DCC was different but I wasn't sure how. :thumbsup:


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## DonR

Like the song says, I can see you now.

Very simple solution. Place your insulated
joiners between the 'white' turnout and the right main line
track. Then also place insulated joiners below the
left hand wye turnout. Thus,
Your isolated section then is the left wye lead and
the dual spurs including
both turnouts. This will give you adequate trackage
for the longest locos and a few cars with no possibility
of a short. That isolated section should be powered
by the output of a reverse loop controller or one unit of the PM42.

Don


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## jlc41

Ok DonR, I think you are saying insulate below the y turn out on the left side adjacent to the tan road. But am not sure about the other location. Are you saying below the right most turn out (on the tan cork) off the original layout?? Please forgive my ignorance. Thanks again.


----------



## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> DonR let me know if this is good enough. Thanks
> View attachment 237610


You still don't have a way to reverse counterclockwise trains. Only the clockwise trains have a route to reverse. I am not near a computer this weekend but as soon as I can get to one I will try to edit one of your photos to show you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Magic

Actually he dose have two reversing eliminates in the last plan. 
There is a balloon type reversing loop on the right side and on the upper left corner there is a wye type reversing track. 
Using the wye would necessitate backing the train though the wye but you could reverse going either CW or CCW.
Wyes are very common on real RRs and balloon type reversing loops more common on scale railroads.

Magic


----------



## DonR

jlc41 said:


> Ok DonR, I think you are saying insulate below the y turn out on the left side adjacent to the tan road. But am not sure about the other location. Are you saying below the right most turn out (on the tan cork) off the original layout?? Please forgive my ignorance. Thanks again.


I went back and reviewed your earlier layout photos and
realized the tail of your Wye is actually a part of your
main line. (I thought they were spurs) Thus my post above is not correct. 

We'll make the left main line from the UPPER White turnout to below the
LOWER white turnout your isolated section. This will require insulated joiners
at the following points:

In both rails of the left wye track at the top of the UPPER white turnout.
In both rails of the right wye track at the top of the UPPER white turnout.
In both rails of the left track below the LOWER white turnout.
In both rails of the right track where it leaves the UPPER white turnout
In both rails of the right track where is meets the LOWER white turnout
This effectively isolates a length of the left main track and it is powered
by the reverse loop controller. The right main track will get power directly
from the DCC buss.

I really don't like this solution as it has too many entry points for the
isolated section, but I think it will work.

Note: Since this is in your main the length of your lighted passenger train
becomes a factor. If it won't fit in the isolated section we can move the insulated
joiners to a point below the LOWER white turnout. All else would remain the same.

Don


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## CTValleyRR

jlc41 said:


> Ok guy's an update with some more detail. The black and tan are roads. The blue are potential industries. Every thing will be flex track. CTValley does this get what you are talking about??? Thanks everyone for your patients I can at times be dense, just ask my better half.


No, it doesn't look like it, but I'm probably the one not being clear.

I'll try again. Because you're running equipment that has a preference for being run with one end always forward, you need to be able to reverse trains heading in either direction. Follow an imaginary train going clockwise around your original layout. Can it enter your expansion area, go around the loop, and continue clockwise around your original (yes, I think so). How about reversing direction and leaving to go counterclockwise on the original (yes). Now, it's traveling counterclockwise around your original layout. Can it leave the expansion and continue counterclockwise? I think so. How reversing to clockwise? That's where I think you're broken.


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## CTValleyRR

Oops. After reading Magic's post and looking again, I see the wye. I thought it was a road.


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## jlc41

DonR, that being said are all the insulated points still needed??


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## Overkast

Magic said:


> Actually he dose have two reversing eliminates in the last plan.
> There is a balloon type reversing loop on the right side and on the upper left corner there is a wye type reversing track.
> Using the wye would necessitate backing the train though the wye but you could reverse going either CW or CCW.
> Wyes are very common on real RRs and balloon type reversing loops more common on scale railroads.
> 
> Magic


Sorry I wasn't clear on my comment, so thanks for clarifying Magic. In my mind I was thinking baloon type reversing only. I did see the wye, but I am under the assumption that having to back a train through a wye every time you wanted to reverse a train's direction would become a pain after a while. But if jlc41 is cool with, it then hey that's great. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## CTValleyRR

I agree with Overkast that things would flow better with a balloon type reversing section. With the wye being essentially part of the main, that will cause traffic jams if there are multiple trains running, but as you say, if he's ok with it, that's all that matters.


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## Magic

I think that wyeing trains would add an interesting element to the layout.
Real trains are often held till the next block has cleared so prototypical as well.
You probability won't be turning trains all that often anyways.

If it were me I'd leave the wye and forget the balloon reversing tack.
I tried to put in a wye but it just didn't work out.

Magic


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## jlc41

Hey guy's if I don't need the wye am good with that. So how do I proceed??


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## CTValleyRR

You need the wye if you don't want your trains to run the same direction all the time -- because if you don't have it, you can't turn a train going counterclockwise around the original layout to run clockwise.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Hey guy's if I don't need the wye am good with that. So how do I proceed??


jlc41, for us to help advise I think you need to make a decision on the reversing situation.

"Balloon loops" allow a train to reverse direction in a continuous forward motion. Wyes (usually) only allow a train to reverse direction by passing the wye, then backing the train through the wye.

Do you want your trains to be able to reverse direction in a continuous forward operation, and do you want that for trains traveling in both clockwise and counterclockwise directions? If yes, you will need 2 balloon loops (1 for each direction). If you are okay with having to stop a train and back it up every time (at least for one of the directions) then you are okay with one balloon / one wye (as your latest configuration had).

For what it's worth, you can also design a single wye to handle reversing of both directions, and do away with balloon loops altogether. But again, that means* a lot* of backing up trains to reverse them.

So what do you want out of your operations?


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## jlc41

Ok guy's I cleaned up some of the switches. The attached pics is where I am and I need help with the reversing loops. DonR listed all the spots that need to be insulated, is that still the case based off these pics???


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## DonR

.

Yes, your changes nullify the list of insulated joints.

You are back to a seriously short isolated section as
we discussed in earlier posts. While your changes
look much neater. The previous track design works
better for the reverse loop control. The probability
of constant short circuits due to the limited length
of the isolated section will be annoying.

But maybe we can do this:

We'll designate the right wye track from where it connects
with the main at the top down to the crossover just before
the track of the inner loop joins.

Thus insulated joiners would be required per this list:

Both rails below the turnout on the right wye track
where it joins the main
Both rails of the left wye track above the turnout that
forms the tail of the wye.
Both rails of the left main where they leave the right wye
track.
Both rails of the right wye track just above the lower 
crossover.

In addition you have another reverse loop that is
the inner loop that surrounds the cluster of buildings.

Don


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## Overkast

jlc41, I think the easiest way for me to explain your reversing issue is to show you through your own pic... 

The green arrows / lines indicate the trains coming from a clockwise direction on the main layout which have a balloon to reverse their direction to counter-clockwise. The red arrows / lines indicate the trains coming from the the main layout in a counter-clockwise direction that have no balloon to reverse direction to clockwise:


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## time warp

I think the double reverse loop is ok if that's what you want for continuous running, but having that and the wye makes it awfully busy.
If you're wanting to do more switching on this section, looks to me like the wye alone would be good. You would have some good operational scenarios figuring out your push/ pull and runaround moves.
Just my opinion!


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## jlc41

TW, OverKast and all the rest of you guy's that have commented and suggested solutions thank you very much. I have totally confused myself on these reversing loops. I will print out the responses and try to make sense out of them. Like I said I can be very dense at times, like now lol. The last response from OverKast is understandable. Although am not sure on the crisscross, but it would add an other aspect to the layout. What am having trouble with is all the insulation points as pointed out by DonR. Am not clear on exactly where some are to be placed. So here's another thought, would a helix eliminate the revers loops???


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## CTValleyRR

time warp said:


> I think the double reverse loop is ok if that's what you want for continuous running, but having that and the wye makes it awfully busy.
> If you're wanting to do more switching on this section, looks to me like the wye alone would be good. You would have some good operational scenarios figuring out your push/ pull and runaround moves.
> Just my opinion!


I know you're (jlc41) trying to figure out your options, so I hesitate to make any comment which might only add to your confusion, but here goes.

I also like the concept of a wye for turning trains, from an operational standpoint. It's the location that causes a problem. I would put a passing siding at the end of you expansion (where the barn is), and make that one part of the wye, so you can turn trains without fouling your main. But having to run to a wye to turn -- that's very realistic! Would make for some great ops sessions.


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## Lemonhawk

Operationally I like the Y as I think it adds a little complexity into normal operations on the layout. Its just a matter of figuring out where to put isolation blocks and which block will require a reversing controller. So I say keep what you have "the Y and the reverse loop" and will figure out how to block it. We need to digest what you have. Its and interesting challenge. Nice thing about DCC is that when its set up you'll forget that the reversers are even in the picture as it will all work without your intervention.


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## time warp

The helix is to allow a change in elevation without having a long linear grade, it doesn't reverse the train. And you're not dense, it's hard to explain some things in this kind of format. Anyone here could easily show you in person. Hard to verbalize sometimes.


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## DonR

If I wasn't such a computer klutz, I could create
a scarm drawing of your layout and clearly
mark where the insulated joiners are to go.

So we'll try an 'instead'.

Take a new pic of the layout and number the
turnouts from the cross main to the very
bottom of the picture. Only those involved with
the wye and the two tracks coming from the wye.

Then I can refer to these numbers to describe more
clearly where the insulated joiners go.

Don


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## Mark VerMurlen

You might want to consider removing the reverse loops altogether from your layout. You will probably save yourself a lot of grief and aggravation if you simplify your layout and eliminate them. Then you don't need to worry about any insulated joiners, reverse loop controllers, and the complexity of wiring them. Nothing says you have to be able to reverse the direction of your trains. (For example, my layout doesn't have any reversing track.) You can always do it manually with your hands. Just a suggestion based on the struggle I see you're having with this thread.

Mark


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## DonR

Mark

The reverse sections the op is proposing add to the
fun of running trains. Using them he can divert
his trains to various routes and in both directions.

Actually there is no complex wiring for a DCC reverse
loop. Only a pair from the loop controller to the isolated
section. The device is totally automatic and once
installed, usually under the table near the 'loop', you
soon forget it is there.

The only 'complication' is installing the insulated
joiners (or cutting gaps in the rails).

Don


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> TW, OverKast and all the rest of you guy's that have commented and suggested solutions thank you very much. I have totally confused myself on these reversing loops. I will print out the responses and try to make sense out of them. Like I said I can be very dense at times, like now lol. The last response from OverKast is understandable. Although am not sure on the crisscross, but it would add an other aspect to the layout. What am having trouble with is all the insulation points as pointed out by DonR. Am not clear on exactly where some are to be placed. So here's another thought, would a helix eliminate the revers loops???


jlc41, you're not dense at all. Just like Don said, these things are sometimes hard to explain over text. And everyone here has valid opinions considering different operations scenarios, which is why I think it's important for you to make a decision on what you want out of your layout in order to put a good plan together.

The issue to address here is what you want to do about reversing trains. Do you want to be able to reverse trains' directions at all or not? If yes, do you want to be able to reverse them in a fluid forward motion, or are you ok with a few manual steps that require stopping the train, backing it up, and moving it forward again? Or do you want to forget about on-layout reversing altogether and just use your hands to pick up a loco / cars and readjust them on the tracks to position them how you want them to move next?

There's a lot of options to consider, but to narrow down the recommendations we need to know what you desire out of your operations.

*side note - Don't harp on worrying about the nuances of a crisscross until you decide on what type of operations you desire as I mentioned above. Because in some scenarios a crisscross will be an essential component, while in other scenarios it would not be a factor at all.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Mark VerMurlen

Perhaps I could have worded my last reply a little better. I think the OP needs to be comfortable with the layout he's building. If he's not comfortable with the layout, he should simplify it. What any of us would like in his layout is not relevant since its not ours. We can make suggestions, but ultimately the OP needs to be comfortable with it. While some of us are very comfortable building a reverse loop, its challenging to many others for a variety of reasons. I would just like us to be sure we're not pushing him into something he's not comfortable with.

Mark


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## Magic

I'm not trying to complicate things BUT.....

With the new diagonal track and the new wye he now has two wyes.
The first is the new one and the second is the old mainline through the left leg of new wye and
past the diagonal and than backing back up the diagonal back to the old mainline.

So you have two wyes. 
Plus three reversing loops with six different ways to reverse a train. 
Clockwise direction and down the two mainlines on the right side gives three routes. Two using the new wye and the third using the diagonal. 

Two more using the new wye first and the sixth using the diagonal first.

That is without counting the old mainline wye which will add more different routes. 
Add in the crossover to the old inside main and there may be even more different routes.

A model railroading engineering feat of the highest order.:thumbsup:

SOOO I'll be tuning in, same Bat thread and same Bat time tomorrow just to see if I'm right, it's almost 4 AM so I might not be seeing things right. 


Magic


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## Chip

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Perhaps I could have worded my last reply a little better. I think the OP needs to be comfortable with the layout he's building. If he's not comfortable with the layout, he should simplify it. What any of us would like in his layout is not relevant since its not ours. We can make suggestions, but ultimately the OP needs to be comfortable with it. While some of us are very comfortable building a reverse loop, its challenging to many others for a variety of reasons. I would just like us to be sure we're not pushing him into something he's not comfortable with.
> 
> Mark


"HIS road, HIS rules"! It's nice to see a layout with "industries" and a "reason" for being, BUTT I quickly realized I just like to see trains running and I don't care too awful much "where" and or "why". I also know enough to know how much I don't know about this and am always leaving the door open for changes and more complexity as I get better at the various challenges. I have two reversing units but I'm in no rush to deploy them, much to do and learn first, the layout is not GOING anywhere and neither am I, nobody needs to try to "have it all" in the first year!

That way lies "hallucinations, madness, and death"! LOL!


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## jlc41

Ok DonR, I labeled up a clean pic of the track layout. Overkast, I want to be able to reverse the trains' directions, and to reverse them in a fluid forward motion if possible. I like what Magic says. Sorry about the pic being sideways, I don't know why??? Hey Chip I couldn't agree more. But I also hate to make mistakes. Although I try to learn from them as I am currently doing with the help of all these fine folks on this site.
View attachment img128.pdf


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## DonR

Yes, that kind of labeling is going make it easy.
But, there are TWO turnouts where you show #2.
One connects to both wye legs, and a 2nd one,
not labelled, is below #2 and creates the left most
track. Give me another label for that. It could be
2A and 2B. There are also THREE turnouts where you
show #3. These could be 3A, 3B & 3C.

I realize that you are experimenting with your tracks,
but I'm quite concerned also about the very sharp
radius in your wye, and also in the two tracks in the
lower right corner. To widen them you likely will
have to make changes in where you have turnouts.

Once we get the wye isolated section solved we'll
take a look at how to handle the big round reverse
loop that connects to the wye tracks and runs down
and around the lower right corner. 

Don


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## jlc41

DonR, here's the relabeled layout pic. #1 coming of the main and is above or behind the white #1A. Also there is a turn out on the right side of the layout (which I forgot to label) off the main above the white #7A above the #6A which is above the white #6 and adjacent to #7 which is above #5 which is above #4A and #4. This is looking at the layout with the pic date corner rotated 90 degrees to the right. I hope you can understand the labeling.
View attachment img129.pdf


----------



## Magic

You could make a few small changes and eliminate a few turnouts by doing the following.

Remove the two turnouts at 3a and 3b, you still have a pull though inside siding by going all the way around to 6 and 6a.

Take the two inside sidings on the right and make them dead end spurs by removing the turnouts at 5 and 7. 
They are way to sharp to put in as you have them now. You will still be able to access them when going clockwise but not so easy going CCW.

If nothing else you have created one of the most interesting threads in a long time. :smilie_daumenpos: :smilie_daumenpos:

Magic


----------



## DonR

Well, let's try it again.

To avoid being connected to the inner reverse loop
(which cannot happen), I think the best isolated section
will be starting with the right leg of the wye at turnout 8, running
THROUGH (and including) turnouts 2 A & B then
continuing down the left main through and including
turnout 3 B to a point below 3 B depending on the
length of your longest lighted passenger train.

Thus, insulated joiners would be required as
follows:

Where the right wye track joins turnout 8.

Where left wye track joins turnout 2 B

Right Main where it joins below turnout 2 A

Where turnouts 3 B and C join.

At a point below turnout 3 B to be determined
by the length of your longest lighted passenger train.

Now, about the inner reverse loop.
An ideal isolated section would be the track
between turnouts 3 A and 5
unless your longest lighted train exceeds that.
In that case, we would continue the isolated
THROUGH turnout 3 A to a point accomdating
that train below 3 A.

Thus, the insulated joiners would be as below:

Where track joins turnout 5.
Where track joins turnout 3 C,

Note: How long is your longest lighted 
passenger train? That would simplify
the locations of the insulated joiners.

Magic: I enjoy these reverse loop encounters.
It's as much fun as a good chess game.

Don


----------



## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Overkast, I want to be able to reverse the trains' directions, and to reverse them in a fluid forward motion if possible.


Ok, in that case you will definitely need a crisscross route to create a 2nd balloon loop. Here's the idea:







There are 2 entry points from the main layout onto your expansion. Trains entering through one of those entry points need to have a path to exit through that same entry point. You don't have an exit path for the left entry point so I drew a path in red for you (same as my previous example where I used arrows on the lines to indicate train direction).

Also I am not sure if it's just the perspective of the photo, but I am a bit concerned about a few possible tight turn radius areas that might end up derailing your trains. I highlighted them in red below:








There's a lot of risk with this process of "sketching" your track routes by just laying track on the table, because a lot can go wrong (like tight turn radius for example). I highly recommend going back to SCARM and using track libraries to define your track layout so you know the routes are legit and will work on your table space.


----------



## Magic

For what you want to do I think Overkast has very good plan.
Two balloon track for reversing in both directions.

Also looking at this view turnouts 5 and 7 seem ok but I still think 
removing them would be a good way to go. Easy to back in cars from both directions.
It would give you a little more wiggle room for installing the crossing.
You want a good bit of straight track on all sides of a crossing or you might have derailing problems. 
I had to remove one for just this reason.

If you leave turnout 5 in you will still have wye track that might need insulation.  Don't know.

Magic


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## jlc41

DonR, I will renumber another drawing to be more clear on the turn outs. Overkast, does the wye stay if I add the cross you suggest?? I not sure how to fit that in at the wye. Magic, interesting but challenging. I find myself dreaming about it lol.


----------



## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Overkast, does the wye stay if I add the cross you suggest?? I not sure how to fit that in at the wye.


In regards to the wye's current location and where I drew that red line crossing it, that technically would not work well. I really just drew the line to lead your eye to the "entry point" where you need to make sure your trains can get back to. 

There's a few different spots you can lead the reversing track to without crossing the wye track... as long as your train can get back to that entry point to exit then that's what you really need to worry about.

So If you have your heart set on keeping the wye, you might be able to keep it in your design as long as you can still pull off a balloon loop reversing track as well.

If you're interested, I can try to mock something up for you in SCARM? If you send me your most recent SCARM file then I can try to mess around with the track library and see what I can come up with for you. If not, not worries


----------



## Chip

I was having difficulties in the corners with radius and just added a "fill" to smooth out the radius, worked pretty good.


----------



## Overkast

Chip said:


> I was having difficulties in the corners with radius and just added a "fill" to smooth out the radius, worked pretty good.


Perfect solution Chip! jlc41, you might want to consider doing the same thing up near that left entry point too, to buy yourself more curve radius room.


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## jlc41

Makes sense, I'll see if I can do it without causing a problem off the main.


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## CTValleyRR

Chip said:


> I was having difficulties in the corners with radius and just added a "fill" to smooth out the radius, worked pretty good.


Tried and true solution, there! Actually over-engineered with the 2x4 cleats; you could have done 1x2 (although I suspect you just used whatever scrap was lying around).


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## jlc41

DonR, updated turn out numbering. 1B leads into 1A. The same goes for 7B which leads into 7A, which leads into 6B, which leads into 6A. 9 is adjacent to 6A. I hope that makes more sense. Thanks for taking the time to help me.
View attachment img130.pdf


----------



## DonR

I have modified my post 116 above to reflect the turnout
numbers as you now have them in your post 125.

Working with puzzles like yours is a game to me.
I enjoy it.


Don


----------



## jlc41

DonR, I am glad to hear that you enjoy helping me with this problem. Why do I say that, because I changed it some. I need 2 crosses but you can see where they would go. Of course if you and the others feel this is over kill please let me know. I also added 2 more turn outs at the bottom of the lay out. I also reworked the wye in the upper left and removed #2A,5&9 turn outs. Also #8 is now in the diagonal above #2. Also my illuminated passenger train is 27" in length.


----------



## DonR

I see your changes but they don't alter the insulated
joiner locations I've previously listed. So we're
home free on that.

It is helpful that your passenger train is no more
than 27 inches. It will easily fit in both of the reverse
loops it appears.

I'm still very concerned about the sharp radius curves
that you have. These will seriously limit what locomotives,
passenger cars and long freight cars that you can run.
Keep in mind how the ends of long locos and cars
jut away from the track. They can pull each other
off the track. Try your passenger cars on those curves
and that will help guide your plans.

Don


----------



## Overkast

Nice revision jlc41! As far as reversing goes, you are golden!


----------



## jlc41

DonR, Overkast thank you and the rest of the folks that have commented and suggested what I can do and not do. Know am waiting for some track and crosses to be delivered so I can test mock up and check the curves. Thanks again guys. I'll be posting as I go.


----------



## The New Guy

this looks redundant? and a bit awkward. ish.


----------



## CTValleyRR

jlc41 said:


> DonR, I am glad to hear that you enjoy helping me with this problem. Why do I say that, because I changed it some. I need 2 crosses but you can see where they would go. Of course if you and the others feel this is over kill please let me know. I also added 2 more turn outs at the bottom of the lay out. I also reworked the wye in the upper left and removed #2A,5&9 turn outs. Also #8 is now in the diagonal above #2. Also my illuminated passenger train is 27" in length.
> View attachment 240177


I would use a sharper crossing angle -- probably 90 degrees -- but otherwise I think that's where you want to go with this.


----------



## CTValleyRR

The New Guy said:


> this looks redundant? and a bit awkward. ish.
> View attachment 240233


He wants to be able to reverse trains heading in both directions without backing. It's just a mock up at this point; he can smooth it out once he gets the concept down.


----------



## The New Guy

CTValleyRR said:


> He wants to be able to reverse trains heading in both directions without backing. It's just a mock up at this point; he can smooth it out once he gets the concept down.


Right.

but what does the highlighted route do that the other route, closer to the original table, crossing nearly parallel to the highlighted route does not do?

hence redundant.

but my eyes are not great. It's something I'm not picking up correctly. obviously.


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## Lemonhawk

The two balloon reverse loops allow you to "unreverse" a reversed train.


----------



## The New Guy

Lemonhawk said:


> The two balloon reverse loops allow you to "unreverse" a reversed train.


You say the two as if there isn't three.


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## CTValleyRR

The New Guy said:


> Right.
> 
> but what does the highlighted route do that the other route, closer to the original table, crossing nearly parallel to the highlighted route does not do?
> 
> hence redundant.
> 
> but my eyes are not great. It's something I'm not picking up correctly. obviously.


Since the OP's layout is oriented primarily towards running / rail fanning, it adds more variety to the route possibilities. At least, that's how I see it. I also suspect that the track closest to the layout may have an unacceptably sharp curve coming out of the turnout.


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## jlc41

DonR, I made a couple of changes. I installed 90 crossing and removed some track per New Guy. I apologize for the pic being sideways. However I have insulators at 3B points end (red), 2B points end (red), 6A diverging ends (red), 6B right side diverging end (red). I need to insulate 1A left corner divergent ends I think. Are there other spots, 4A or B?? Your help is much appreciated. I will probably need guidance wiring the Digitrax PM42 auto reverser too. 
View attachment Track w 90.pdf


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## Mark VerMurlen

Here's where I would put the insulators (see the red digital lines across the tracks):










Basically at the end of each arm of the X crossover.

Mark


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## jlc41

Mark, thank you. I have one in the upper right hand conner at 6B. I also have one at the points end of 2B, should I move that to the divergent side of 2B? So do I remove the ones at the other locations??? 4 locations makes it a lot easier.


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## Mark VerMurlen

If you use the 4 locations I've given, then yes, you'd remove all the other locations that you have insulators. The one caveat with my proposal is that the one cross-over segment is somewhat short if you have a long lighted passenger train. It could be some other folks have been trying to give you a longer reversing section to accommodate that. So hold on and see what other opinions come in.

Mark


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## DonR

Jlc

Give us a pic that shows all of the new track layout
including the changes you have made. I can't tell
from the partial pic you posted, where the insulated
joiners should go.

Mark

I assume your suggestion of insulated joiner
placement is based on the belief that there
is a connection between the 4 tracks of a crossing.
A 90 degree crossing does not require insulated
joiners. The NS track is not connected to the EW
track. I can't tell if the crossing is involved with
the reverse loop in the above pic. Waiting for
a pic showing entire expansion area.

The isolated sections are generally used only when there is
a reverse loop situation that requires phase (polarity)
change. There can be other reasons though.

Jlc

The instructions that will come with your PM42 will
be clear, I expect. I have not used one, I have a
single reverse loop controller. You connect the input
of the reverse controller to your main DCC buss. The
output goes to the isolated track section. That is
all there is to it, no complicated wiring needed.

I am going to assume (as dangerous as that is) that
the PM42 will have ONE input from the DCC buss, and
a choice of 4 outputs that go to your isolated sections.

D


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## Lemonhawk

If you go with a PM42 consider this breakout board, makes using the PM42 a lot easier.
http://acculites.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_100&products_id=574


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## Mark VerMurlen

DonR said:


> Mark
> 
> I assume your suggestion of insulated joiner
> placement is based on the belief that there
> is a connection between the 4 tracks of a crossing.
> A 90 degree crossing does not require insulated
> joiners. The NS track is not connected to the EW
> track. I can't tell if the crossing is involved with
> the reverse loop in the above pic.  Waiting for
> a pic showing entire expansion area.
> 
> The isolated sections are generally used only when there is
> a reverse loop situation that requires phase (polarity)
> change. There can be other reasons though.


I do understand that the crossover tracks are isolated from one another. You need the insulated joiners on all 4 arms because you actually have 2 reverse loops in this layout. Each diagonal of the "X" is a reverse loop. But by you bring it up, I realize that since we don't expect more than 1 train to be within any portion the "X", both diagonals can be tied together and one reverse loop controller used for it.

I would strongly recommend using an AR1 reverse loop controller over using a PM42. I've got two PM42s on my layout and they are complicated to use. In addition, they require their own power supply. An AR1 will be much simpler and cheaper. The only reason I would recommend using the PM42 would be if you also want to use it for circuit breaker protection for the rest of the layout too.

Mark


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## jlc41

Ok guy's new pic per your request. Hope this is good.


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## Mark VerMurlen

I'm going to present you with 2 options. In both cases, the only insulators really needed are those that I've marked in red or orange color.

Option #1:









Option #2:









I'm going to take back what I said above and recommend that you use two separate reverse controllers. One for each diagonal of your "X". That will allow you to have two trains within the "X". I could easily imagine that one train could want to enter the "X" and stop short of the 90 degree crossing while another train passes through on the opposite diagonal. To make that work right, you'd need to be able to reverse each diagonal independently of the other.

Option #2 gives you more length to fit a longer train into the lower-left to upper-right track segment. But it has the downside that you can't allow a train to enter into the upper-right entrance to the "X" if there's already a train that's on the left-hand track just going around the loop and still has some part of it in that shared extended section.

If it were my layout, I think I'd use option #1, but I'd move turnout 2B to be closer to (maybe even butted up to) turnout 3C as you labeled them in an earlier post. That would lengthen the lower-left to upper-right diagonal to allow a longer train to fit in it.

Hope that makes sense.

Mark


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## DonR

I have drawn out the expansion track plans using red
for right rail, black for left rail.

First there is a need for two isolated reverse loop sections and two
controllers. 

I would create the first section of the inner loop by
using insulated joiners in the two top legs of the turnout #2
left of the crossing. It would continue around
thru turnout 3A to and thru turnout 4, where
again, insulated joiners would be in both top legs.
There would be insuiated joiners
in the outer track below turnout 3B.

The second reverse section is the outer track
at the bottom of the layout.

Here we must do something different. You cannot
have two DCC reverse loops abut each other. So we
are creating another isolated section below the insulated
joiners and runs say 4 feet to another set of joiners.
This section will be powered by the main track buss.

The 2nd reverse loop begins at the insulated joiners
of the created isolated section and continues to
a point of say 5 or 6 feet where another set of
joiners would be used. 

There will be no insulated joiners at turnouts 8 & 9.

Each reverse loop isolated section would need a reverse
loop controller. You could use 2 AR1s or 2 units of the PM42.

Both of the isolated sections are long enough for
almost any train so you should have no problems
from that score. I am a bit concerned that there are
five accesses to the inner isolated section.
That can result in a 2nd train attempting to enter 
before the first has exited, which would result in a short.

The PM42 can act as reverse loop controller for as many as 4 loops.

Don


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## jlc41

Thanks Mark and DonR, Mark I think the PM42 can handle 2 reversing loops, yes or no. I see what you mean by moving 2B to butt 3C for length. On option #1 all the insulators are on one leg of the turn outs, is that what you suggest?? DonR, I will post a numbered pic so I can see exactly what you are explaining. If you could use the numbers on the turn outs to explain I would appreciate it.
View attachment img132.pdf
Again I apologize for the pic being side ways.


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## DonR

Jlc

I have edited my post 147 above to include the
turnout numbers you have in your latest
posted pic.

I know it's a bit complicated but doable.

Don


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## jlc41

DonR, I get the insulators at #2&4. However (There would be insuiated joiners
in the outer track below turnout 3B). Do you mean 3A? So we
are creating another isolated section below the insulated
joiners and runs say 4 feet to another set of joiners.
This section will be powered by the main track buss. Below what insulated joiners?? Also what do you mean by main track buss?? My layout is powered NCE Power Cab are you suggesting an additional power source?? I am lost.
Also how does your plan differ from Mark's which seems a lot simpler??? Thanks for your help, I want to get this right so my grandson and I can have some fun.


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## jlc41

DonR, I have the first section of the inner loop per your instructions. It's the second section I need help with. I understand about butting 2 reversing loops is a no go. However can I use the insulated joiners below #3B as the start of the insulated section that would run about 4 feet. Then from their run up to the right leg of turnout #8 with insulators?? With no insulators at #9. Thanks in advance.


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## DonR

In the outer loop:

Place insulated joiners, say, one flex track section
below turnout 3 B. Then again at the length of another
flex track section. (This section is powered by the
main buss and is used to separate the two reverse
loops). This begins your reverse loop isolated
section. Make it as long as your longest lighted
passenger train and install insulated joiners at
that point somewhere below turnout #9.
It is powered by one of your reverse loop
controllers. 

There is no need for insulated joiners at turnout 9
but they are installed below turnout 8.

Don


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## jlc41

Well, Happy Thanks Giving to all the forum members. I am happy to report that I have managed to get the inner reversing loop done. Thanks DonR and others that have guided me. It was a little tricky till I understood that my switches play a part in powering or not powering the track. So now I will have to come up with a proper switching scheme to make the trains run where I want them. But first I must get the outer loop done. This has been some great mental gymnastics.


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## Lemonhawk

I'm not a big fan of using the turnout points to power the rails. You just need to add some feeders to the tracks after the turnouts so they will be powered no matter which way the turnout is set. If its a siding that you really want to turn off then you can always put a DPDT switch in before the feeder (a SPST will work also). This gives you control of when to turn off the noise from sound equipped engines or lighted passenger cars setting on the siding.


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## jlc41

Lemonhawk, thanks, I kind of figured that is what to do. I just don't want to screw up the reversing AR1 unit.


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## time warp

Glad you're moving forward, J! This thread typifies the prevailing helpful and courteous attitudes of the members here. To all involved in helping solve your design problems and assist in answering questions I say WELL DONE!:appl:



I gotta say: I LIKE THE WAY WE DO THINGS AROUND HERE!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Mr.Buchholz

I'd love to be able to have an expansion. Unfortunately, I'm out of space.

-J.


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## jlc41

Mr.Buchholz, is it possible for you to add an elevated section??


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## jlc41

Ok guy's, I would like some ideas for crossing signals at my 90 degree cross. I would like it to be automated, lights, bell and maybe arms. Thanks in advance.


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## DonR

The key factor in setting up an automatic crossing
or signalling system is occupancy detection of the trains.

One supplier of these systems is Azatrax.

http://www.azatrax.com

You'll find many models of crossing signals and
track side signals at any online hobby shop. They
would be controlled by devices such as 
sold by Azatrax and others.

Here are several different types available.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-Scale-Crossing-Signals-s/2523.htm

Don


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## jlc41

Thanks DonR, now to figure out which ones to get. This also has me thinking on how to automatically pause one train at the crossing while another passes. Any and all ideas welcome. I am running DCC.


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## time warp

Please nobody throw a brick at me for chiming in, but functionally all you need is occupancy detectors both directions, and a relay type device to toggle power between the two routes. As long as they're not on at the same time you don't have to kill power both directions, just not have them powered up at the same time.
The experienced DCC guys here I'm sure are more adept at providing a solution here than I can be.


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## DonR

A few guys have computer controlled DCC layouts. Their
systems do control the locos, for example, where
tracks cross. A year or so ago, there was a video somewhere here on the Forum showing a very complex computer controlled
layout running several trains at the same time. 

You could, tho, as Time Warp suggests, simply kill
the power in an isolated section approaching the
cross tracks using a relay controlled by the
occupancy detectors. It would look awkward because
you would have an abrupt stop and a fast start.

Don


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## jlc41

Thanks guys, I was thinking along the same lines using a relay and detectors and tie in the crossing signals. More things to work out, I love this hobby.


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## time warp

there would be a difference between using automatic operation or just a safety measure. Depending on the era that you were modeling you might consider using smashboards or a signal house at the Crossing


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## jlc41

TW, I am freelancing. I run both steam & diesel. What is a smash board and how


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## time warp

A smash board is sort of a crossing gate where a major rail line crosses a minor rail line. It would be an indicator for the minor train to stop, thereby giving preference to the major line. It would actually be closed across the track and if the train didn't stop it would hit it, hence the term smash board.
That being said ,really the way you signal and handle your train stops at the Crossing would be dictated by whether or not one of the routes had preference over the other.
I guess in layman's terms weather one route of the crossing was considered the main line in the other route would be considered the secondary line.
You might see if you can Google the Monon Railroad because they had Main Line crossing both directions in Northern Indiana years ago and it would be interesting to see how they handle preference there.


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## jlc41

Thanks TW, I will check that out.


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## jlc41

A little up date to the expansion. My brother in-law shot a little video of my layout. I was showing him some updates. I was also running a 15 car coal drag with the loco I just converted to DCC. Here's the link, hope you can open it.

https://goo.gl/photos/9FHQXxwVhwevyP7d7


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> A little up date to the expansion. My brother in-law shot a little video of my layout. I was showing him some updates. I was also running a 15 car coal drag with the loco I just converted to DCC. Here's the link, hope you can open it.
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/9FHQXxwVhwevyP7d7


Wow great progress on the expansion jlc41! Love the video

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Magic

Looking great 41.
Is the expansion working out like you wanted?
A lot of people put a lot of work into that.

Magic


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## jlc41

Thanks guy's. So far so good, still have a ton of work to do. Yesterday I got both train stations and 5 street lamps installed. Working my way out to the farm. I have to bring in the road crews and get cracking on the RR crossings and the roads. The town, church and realtors are having trouble deciding where to put the cemetery. The farmer is trying to get the stock pens finished and working a deal for a slaughter house. The land scapeing guy's are getting antsy. The RR company just keeps rolling along, every bodies happy.


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## time warp

I like your video, J! I almost felt like I was right there and it looks like everyone was having a good time. Thanks!


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## jlc41

TW, I didn't realize my brother in law was doing the video other wise I would gone to make up first. Did you notice the coal drag and Charlie scoot under the layout? When I get more done I will post another video.


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## time warp

Yes I did notice the Coal drag, and that fast moving something below!
The fact that it was so casual is what makes it fun. Things are looking mighty fine in your little world there Joe!


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## jlc41

Yup, progress little by little. As a friend of mine likes to say "how do you eat a 16 oz steak....one bite at a time".


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## jlc41

Well a few more bites out of that 16ozer. Much more to be done, but some problems came up with the work crew and the grave yard / cemetery. There was talk about evil sprites and Hexes and such. But a few trips to town for lunches and dinners / booze seems to have got them back on track (pun intended).


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## time warp

I'm glad you posted! I've been wondering how things were going. Gaining bit(e) by bit(e). :laugh:


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## jlc41

Thanks TW. Yeah, now I have to lay in the streets/roads. What you see is paper to simulate same. Am undecided on weather to put stone applicay or not on the cemetery walls. Once I complete the streets/roads it's on to the stock pens.


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## Magic

The cemetery came out very nice.
Stone walls would be the ticket.

Stock pens, that's what I'm working on now.+
Good to see you're making some progress.

Magic


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## jlc41

Thanks Magic, just have to decide on stone or brick. I have the pen kit put together. I have to detail it. The work crew is looking forward to playing with the animals. I told them that will wear off after they step in a couple of piles. They were glad to get away from the cemetery job. Little do they know that the pens are next door to the cemetery.


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## jlc41

Starting to set up farm animals for a look see. I figure am going to need a pond so they can get water and set up my wind mill. Lots to do, comments, ideas or suggestions welcomed. Thanks in advance.


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## time warp

There you go J! Nice looking arrangement there. You have enough of a dairy operation to generate a couple of milk tankers a week.
Maybe a Dempster or Aeromotor windmill up near the Barn with a round tank to water the cattle?
You might want to separate your beef and milk cows though. Just a suggestion

Nice stock pens by the way!


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## Magic

Nice job on the stock pens, I'm using the same kit but had to cut it way down to fit my space. 

Magic


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## time warp

I used a small Life Like stockyard kit, but I still had to cut it down.


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## jlc41

Thanks for the suggestions guy's. TW, I like the idea of mike tankers. I was thinking of putting the windmill near the barn and also putting a pond near by.
Thanks Magic, I still have to paint and tar paper the stock pen shelter and get some soil and water troughs in there. I also have to work on fencing in the property. TW, being a city boy which cows are the beef and which are the dairy???:laugh:


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## time warp

I was living in the thick of cattle country for a while, so I did pick up a few things though I'm no expert.

Simply: the black/whites are milk cows. They are pastured near the Barn because they need to be milked around the same time everyday. Generally they are bred from 1 or 2 bulls to keep a strong bloodline.

The brown(or reds) are generally beef cattle and they are normally run on range pasture. Typically purchased as feeder calves, the males are cut(steers) and the females aren't put with bulls unless they are being bred. 

That's why you don't want your beef and milk cows mixed, they'll let nature take it's course and get all mixed up, plus they are fed differently.

That's the extent of my over simplified knowledge.


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## CTValleyRR

Well having also grown up around farms, even working there evenings and weekends to earn a buck or two (in those days), TW is absolutely right: there are beef cows and there are dairy cows, and never the twain shall meet. Holstiens (the black and white ones), are preferred dairy cows because they tend to give more milk than other breeds. While you CAN butcher any cow for meet, the ones we eat tend to be feed a more contolled diet.

That said, your layout, your rules.

My real concern is that your cows are rapidly starving to death. They can't eat dirt!


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## jlc41

TW, CTValleyRR, thanks for the infoe. Good point, I will have to get some green going.


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## time warp

All that being said, you have an excellent start on the farm.:thumbsup:


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## jlc41

Okay, got some green down. Now I have to work on the fencing and roads and keeping the milk cows from the beef cows. Comments and suggestions welcomed.


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## CTValleyRR

Looking very nice! Some good old split rail fences are what you need now!


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## Magic

Coming along nicely, You need to get some milk cans in there some place.

Magic


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## jlc41

Thanks guy's, I still have to work in a pond and some shade trees.


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## time warp

Has there been any construction progress lately? One bit of advice: the water tank should be right against the windmill tower because the pump discharge pipe will be right there. 
I've got to say that is shaping up to be a very nice farm scene.:thumbsup:


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## jlc41

Funny you should ask....didn't realize how much of a job the fence project would be. However the crew kept at it and are almost done. Still a lot more to do. Not sure how to go with the pasture separations, i.e. milk cows beef cows and bulls. Still have work on the roads and the hill side on the back of the farm near the tracks. But this is where am at.


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## highvoltage

Looks like the electric company moved in with some giant colored alligator clips!


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## jlc41

Good catch, yes the rr crew is experimenting with an in house switch signal. The test was successful now they have to determine where to place it.


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## Mark VerMurlen

Love the farm scene! The fencing helps a lot with the overall scene. I had a farm scene in my first layout that I built, so I have fondness for them.

Mark


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## time warp

Looks good, Joe! Makes a nice farm scene.
You might add a small section of fence to close in the far end of the fenced area next the barn, which will create a segregating area for new calves and such, and you need some fence to keep the cows from wandering into the barn, those dumb cows will tear up anything they can congregate around! Just some tips, I think it looks nice the way you have it.


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## jlc41

Thanks guys that's what am looking for some tips to help out this city boy. I know zip about farms which is why it's taking me so long to complete the scene. Am torne between stone, hedge or fence to separate the pastures....discisons discisions  TW, am not sure what end you mean for the calf encloser. Do you mean the side where the wind mill is??? I guess if they tear up stuff that kind of eliminates the hedge.


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## time warp

The end of the barn towards the house


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## CTValleyRR

Hedges are generally not used to contsin animals, at least not in the US.

New England farms use stone walls, because we have so darned many rocks (I swear it should be the Connecticut State flower).

Barbed wire and split rail are more common elsewhere.

Chose one and do it. It will look great.


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## Mr.Buchholz

Make sure that the multitude of cows don't wander onto the tracks all at once!  (Looks really good, BTW)

-J.


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## jlc41

Mr.Buchholz thanks, I'll make sure we have the tracks and cows kept separate.


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## jlc41

Scaped the drop off on the back side of the farm. Comments and suggestions welcomed. 1st pic is before, second is after.


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## time warp

Looks great to me!:thumbsup:


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## Overkast

Looks awesome jlc! What materials did you use - especially for the long grass to make it look like wild grass?


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## jlc41

Thanks guy's. Overkast, I got them at Micheal's. It's an Ashland product. The lable on both bags says moss no product # or other dicription???
I really like the lighter color and was able to pull it and strecth it out to get that effect.


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## Magic

Looks very nice 41 
That whole section is really coming together nicely.
Well done.

Magic


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## jlc41

Thanks Magic, now on to figuring out how to fence in the pasture separations.


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## Overkast

jlc41 said:


> Thanks guy's. Overkast, I got them at Micheal's. It's an Ashland product. The lable on both bags says moss no product # or other dicription???
> I really like the lighter color and was able to pull it and strecth it out to get that effect.


Thanks jlc, I'll have to look for that the next time I'm in Michaels.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## jlc41

Overkast, check both where they have modeling stuff and where they have stuff for making home floral stuff. The 1st time I found them with the modeling stuff. The 2nd time they had them with the home decore stuff. I had to ask a worker, go figure.


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## jlc41

Here is a little more progress on the expanson. Scratch built building veggie crates and display rack








new fence and gate for barn








new hospital under constuction


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## time warp

Nice progress, J! Thanks for the update.


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## Mark VerMurlen

Looking good!

Mark


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## Magic

Looking good 41.
Fencing off the barn looks great.

Magic


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## jlc41

Thanks guys, as you can see I tend to go in many directions at once, but am having fun.


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## time warp

jlc41 said:


> Overkast, check both where they have modeling stuff and where they have stuff for making home floral stuff. The 1st time I found them with the modeling stuff. The 2nd time they had them with the home decore stuff. I had to ask a worker, go figure.


 While at Hobby Lobby today I found they have large bags of Lichen in the floral dept. for $4.50 each. That's a bargain, plus you can use the online coupon for 40% off. Next time I'm near a Micheals I will look for the moss.


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## time warp

Haven't heard much from you for a while, J. I trust the wheels are still rolling?


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## jlc41

TW, wife's been in the hospital, (sever C.O.P.D.)so that's where I'ev been. She's back home and doing the best she can. 

The wheels are still rolling but slowly. Just a little detail work here and thier. I'll get some pics up soon. First I have to repair my PC. It crashed yesterday. Life goes on.


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## time warp

Oh, no! Best wishes, Joe.


----------



## jlc41

Thanks, TW.


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## time warp

Looking forward to more layout news, Joe. Hang in there buddy


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## jlc41

TW, I appreciate the kind words and encouragement, but under the circumstances I don't have the will or the desire right now.

Happy New Year to you and yours.


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## time warp

It's been a tough year, honestly one that I didn't believe I would live to see the end of.
I'm sincerely wishing you happiness in the New Year, and am confident you'll find the strength to move ahead. 
God bless you, Sir.


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## jlc41

Thanks TW, we all can use Gods blessing.


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