# Improving mid 90's Lionel 4-8-4 J-Class smoke unit



## L0stS0ul

Howdy,

I recently purchased what looked like a new in box Lionel 6-18040 Norfolk & Western 4-8-4 J-Class Steam Locomotive & Tender from 1995. We live in VA and my son is really excited to see the 611 come thru Manassas in a few weeks and when I saw an awesome deal on this 612 I couldn't pass it up.









It didn't work out of the box but a good lube up and removal of some hardened grease in the gear box with motor oil cleared that right up. Now it's pulling 15 of my cars without issue. It's a beautiful train and it actually sounds really good but the smoke unit is anemic at best. I drop 5-8 drops in and it smokes ok for about a minute and then you can barely see it anymore. I have to have the train going pretty slow even right after putting in the drops or I can't see it. My dad's 1950's 726RR Berkshire with a liquid upgraded smoke unit will smoke awesome on the same amount of fluid for 10-20 minutes or more. 

Are there any tricks to getting this thing to smoke better? It's a plastic unit that also tries to funnel the smoke down to simulate steam. Are there any upgrades to this thing? I would love for it to smoke like my dad's old train.

Thanks


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## sjm9911

Its nice looking, sorry cant help on the smoke. Did you try the better smoke fluids, megasteam, I think its called, there are others. If its funneling smoke down to simulate steam , maybe you can plug that up. Is it a fan unit or puffer? Someone will know.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks,

I am using megasteam in it. It is a plastic puffer type. 600-8100-060. Smoke Unit

http://www.lionel.com/customerservice/service-documents/download.cfm?file=28610-8040-001Complete.pdf

I have not tried plugging the funnel. Will try that. These plastic smoke units are horrible. This is my second 90s train with a plastic smoke unit and I am not a fan. Maybe I can get an old postwar smoke unit in it.


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## L0stS0ul

I'm thinking of trying the upgraded smoke unit from the reissue 726/736 since the frame is nearly identical. I would rather have good smoke out the stack than the simulated steam. Wonder if anyone tried this. 

6008002050	SMOKE UNIT W/ 20 ohm / #726 BERK / CONV CLASSIC

Would love to put a fan unit in there but don't know how hard that would be


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## L0stS0ul

I've seen a few posts mentioning the 8057-200 lionel fan driven smoke unit as a potential option. That was for a polar express berk but could work. Not finding a lot of options in stock though. Another option I found was an MTH smoke unit from one of the smoking tank cars

http://www.trainworld.com/manufactu...-1/MTH-30-73390-Smoking-Tank-Car-Liquid-Air-/

Pull out the smoke unit and use it instead as it should be wired the same as I will need. Plus I get a tank car out of it. Might give that a try. 

I could always switch it to the older style puffer type like 
http://store.justtrains.com/671-170X-Smoke-Unit_p_125.html

which is very similar to the upgraded one I have in my dad's 726 that smokes awesome. I'll be mulling over my options some more. Would love a fan unit in it and with a cherry switch I could possibly make it puff as well. Decisions...

Here's a comparison video of it currently. I had just put 5 drops in the 726 and the 612 and started both up about 30 seconds prior. The 726 started smoking right away and the 612 just got to it's max smoke as the camera started. As you can see the smoke lasted less than 2 minutes on the 612 while the 726 just kept going. That's what I want the 612 to do.


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## DonR

Has Norfolk Southern restored the 611 to running condition again?

I was fortunate enough to ride in a fan trip train with that beauty
at the head end from Jacksonville to Valdosta, Ga. several years
ago. It needed water in Valdosta before the return trip so they
called up a Fire truck pumper to fill the tender.

Don


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## highvoltage

DonR said:


> Has Norfolk Southern restored the 611 to running condition again........


It appears so: http://fireup611.org/


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've put fan driven smoke units in a host of different locomotives. There's plenty of room in the "J" for a fan driven smoke unit if you wanted one.


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## L0stS0ul

The 611 will be starting excursions again in June. I would love to do that but a 4 hour trip without stops is a bit much for a 4 year old to handle. We'll settle for watching it head out and come back into the station in Manassas. We can't wait 

gunrunnerjohn, I've been looking around lionels site and I think I'm going to try the conversion to fan driven. I've looked around and the 8057-200 looks like a good option to try and Lionel actually has them in stock for cheaper than other places. I was also thinking of the following:

6100401162 - CHERRY SWITCH (DG23-B1LA) 3A 125V
to use with the existing puff bar to turn the fan on and off for puffing

6108057200 - FAN DRIVEN SMOKE UNIT / RECT / DIESEL / 27 OHM
actual smoke unit. It looks like it can be wired directly to the collectors and run off of rail power. 

6108082019 - LAMP / 18V 50MA / CLEAR / BI-PIN (ALT: 6108011019)
new lamp that I believe can be wired directly to rail power

6308035204 - BRACKET / SMOKE UNIT / SCALE PACIFIC
to mount the smoke unit

I'm planning to just wire everything directly to the collectors. I'm I crazy or could this actually work?


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## gunrunnerjohn

You may find mounting the cherry switch problematic, but if that works out, the switch should work fine.

The smoke unit you picked is fine as long as it fits. I think the chances of the mounting bracket working without modification is probably pretty small, I normally end up making my own mounting bracket. 

If I were "improving" this, I'd put an LED in. A diode, a 750 ohm 1/4W resistor, and an appropriately sized LED will run directly from track power. Since the LED projects light out the front, you'll get far better lighting at any reasonable track power. The incandescent 18V bulb at 6-8 volts will barely be visible.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks so much,

I figured I would start with that mount and see where it goes  It's pretty cheap at a buck or two. I'll take a look at the LED option as it does sound better. I've never wired something like that up before so will have to do my research on that. 

Do you know of any other smoke units that might be a better choice? I've seen some references to MTH ones as being smaller but I can't find those for sale anywhere.


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## gunrunnerjohn

There are probably other choices, however the ones I use that are smaller don't have the 5V supply for the fan. Since my intended use is with my Super-Chuffer product, that isn't a problem as it provides the fan power and control. I try to fit the MTH unit in if possible as I find it smokes the best, and also has a brass thread that I can solder the brass stack extension on for installation.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks gunrunnerjohn for all of the help. I'm learning so much from this forum and this is my first time modifying anything like this. I think I have decided to try the 8057-200. I opened up the engine last night and there is a ton of room. 

Just for sanity sake, based off what I've read I believe that the 8057-200 can be run directly from track power because it has the motor regulator. Is that true or will I need something else between the track power and the board? The wiring diagrams I've seen show it connected to tmcc boards. I believe the 3 connectors are ground, fan hot, element hot. 

I might eventually move to TMCC with constant voltage but right now my wife would not go for that expense lol. 

Thanks again.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You can run it from track power for conventional operation. The smoke volume will vary with throttle settings, but maybe that's somewhat prototypical enyway.  There really are only two connections, note that the outer pins are connected together on the PCB. To control the motor, you break one lead from the board to the motor and run it through the chuff switch.


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## L0stS0ul

Awesome. Thanks so much. I'm really excited to get these parts ordered. I'll update this post when the parts are in and I start doing the conversion.


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## gunrunnerjohn

We look forward to the video.


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## L0stS0ul

Lionel did some fast shipping over the holiday and I got all of the parts this afternoon. I spent a few hours this evening getting it all hooked up. I'm actually missing a few pictures and when I take it apart to put the headlight back in I'll snap a few more. Here are some pics from the upgrade

This is the old puffer unit in place.








Picture of the smoke unit removed. Do you see that ball bearing by the spring and pump? There were 2 of them inside the smoke pump. I can't figure out where they went. While testing things I found out that the blue wire going to the old smoke unit is regulated. It might be the reason why this thing has such horrible output. At full throttle I was only seeing 3-4 volts on my volt meter. 








I didn't know that when I first hooked it all up and soldered the blue wire to the fan unit. I found that a standard hitec female servo connector works in the wire harness very well so cut up an old servo to wire this thing up. The wiring ended up being the 2 outside pins to the headlight (red +) wire on the train. The blue wire for the old smoke unit is not used. The center wire on the servo harness is grounded to the screw the old smoke unit was held in with. I don't think both outside pins need to be connected but I figured it wouldn't hurt so attached it.








I messed around with a few ways to mount the smoke unit but ultimately they were all going to be a PITA. I have some double sided servo tape that I reinforced with some high temp hot glue and just glued the smoke unit to the shell. I also found a metal cylinder that was the perfect size to use as a smoke stack. I used the hot glue on that as well. So far it seems to be holding up and I've been able to remove the smoke unit twice as I needed to tweak things and it was not to hard to take apart. 








Here's the video. Smoke output is not as thick as I would like. I wasn't expecting MTH smoke but I was expecting a little thicker. I did cut the shroud off the heat element but have not made any other tweaks yet to the smoke unit. 





Overall it's working pretty well. I have the cherry switch but if I can't get the smoke output higher then I will probably not install it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I use a lower value resistor, and drill out the intake hole. That helps with the smoke volume. Also, adding the chuffing will not make less smoke, and you'll get a stronger puff when it comes out as it's warming the fluid when the fan isn't running.


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## L0stS0ul

I just finished pulling it apart, repacking the smoke unit, and making sure the air flow was open. While I had it apart I also made a little mount and hooked up one of the lights. I've not had a chance to test it. 

I cleaned up and added some insulation to what was already in the smoke unit. The element wasn't touching the batting and now it is slightly. One thing I find really odd is that the fan spins clockwise and the blades are pitched backwards. Is that right?








This is the reassembled unit with the smoke stack and added the gasket that was on the old unit. I put the servo tape over the exposed connections to protect from shorts. 








Hooking up the 18v bulb that I got and put it in a little mount. I cut the white wire off the smoke unit as it was redundant and used that. Grounded the light to the original smoke unit's mount screw.








Overhead view of the wiring








Preparing for reassembly








All assembled and ready to go. Hope that light is bright enough. Will find out soon


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## L0stS0ul

well, that light didn't work. I was trying not to use the one in the old smoke unit in case I need to put it back for some reason but I guess I'll just use that light. I don't see any change in the smoke volume with pulling it apart and adding some more batting. What resistor value do you use?


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## gunrunnerjohn

I use a 20 or 22 ohm 3W wirewound resistor. I also drill out the intake hole above the fan to 7/32" to improve the airflow. A key is the resistor should be firmly in contact with the wick, but not buried in the wick. Also, there should be a clear path for air from the fan chamber to the stack going right past the resistor. Finally, make sure the fan turn in the proper direction, CW looking from the top. I've seen these wired incorrectly, and the smoke performance suffers.


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## 400E Blue Comet

You should surprise him... When you come home he sees the 612 slowly running down the track 

That does look nice. Not entirely sure how you could improve the smoke though- you could try buying better smoke fluid or a better smoke unit as long as they're compatible, but I can't think of much else that would make it smoke longer.


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## L0stS0ul

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I use a 20 or 22 ohm 3W wirewound resistor. I also drill out the intake hole above the fan to 7/32" to improve the airflow. A key is the resistor should be firmly in contact with the wick, but not buried in the wick. Also, there should be a clear path for air from the fan chamber to the stack going right past the resistor. Finally, make sure the fan turn in the proper direction, CW looking from the top. I've seen these wired incorrectly, and the smoke performance suffers.


Thanks John, I believe it is turning clockwise. I tested it on the track when I had it apart. I'll play with the batting some more to see if I can get it to smoke any better and look into one of those resistor replacements. With radioshack gone it's not as easy to find that stuff around here. I have to take it apart to redo the light anyway so will look to see where I could mount the cherry switch to make it puff.


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## L0stS0ul

400E Blue Comet said:


> You should surprise him... When you come home he sees the 612 slowly running down the track
> 
> That does look nice. Not entirely sure how you could improve the smoke though- you could try buying better smoke fluid or a better smoke unit as long as they're compatible, but I can't think of much else that would make it smoke longer.


My son doesn't know what he's going to see in a few days. It's going to blow his mind and he'll have a completely different appreciation for the trains downstairs. I can't wait 

I'm already using the megasteam stuff in it. I have some MTH protosmoke but that stuff smells horrible. It does have a more saturated white cloud on my other trains so may try that in it for a bit. Maybe come up with a mix of the megasteam and protosmoke lol.


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## gunrunnerjohn

RS probably didn't have them anyway. I buy my resistors at Digikey.


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## L0stS0ul

Since that light setup didn't work I unhooked it and decided to try and connect the cherry switch. I managed to get it all setup pretty quickly and it works really well! I still want to get the smoke volume up and I'll be looking for a different resistor but this is looking pretty cool. 

I cut the red wire to the motor in half and soldered some extension wires on.








The cherry switch is connected as shown and the leads are soldered








I then found the perfect way to mount it. I just cleaned and hot glued it to the existing cherry switch that is used for the chuffing sound. The switchs overlap but work great together








Here's a quick video of it. As I said the volume is not huge but it is working quite well. Hoping once I find a new resistor that helps.





Any suggestions for the lighting? I know John had mentioned an LED setup but I'm not sure where to start on researching that to buy the parts.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The LED lighting is pretty easy. A 3mm warm-white LED to slip into the headlight lens, a 470 ohm 1/4W resistor, and a 1N4001 diode to track power, you have a headlight. All of the components are wired in series, the band on the diode goes to the long (positive) lead of the LED.

Send me a PM for a few bucks I can ship you what you need.


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## L0stS0ul

Just out of curiosity. This J-Class needs to be at 60-70 on the Lionel transformer CW-80 before it starts moving. Most of my other trains are more around 30-40. Is that normal for this train? It seems to have good pulling power once it gets going but takes a lot of juice to get moving. My old postwar 726 doesn't require as much juice with a similar pullmor motor but it is no where near as heavy. You can kinda hear it struggling to go slow in the latest video towards the end.


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## L0stS0ul

I'll answer my own question. I got my 1950's train and the 612 running at the same speed down the straight aways and tested the voltage on the track and they were within 1/10 of a volt. It just seemed like it was so much higher than the other one. I had it pulling 11 lighted passenger cars and 1 lighted caboose tonight and that got the smoke going a little bit more to my liking but that long of a consist looks really funny on my little table. Can't wait to get the new resistor and see what happens.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's in the mailbox and waiting for the postman.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks gunrunnerjohn!! I got the parts in the mail yesterday and I just finished rebuilding the smoke unit. It works awesome  I don't have it fully installed in the train yet but I've bench tested it.






Here are a few pics of the upgrade to the upgrade 









New resistor installed along with some heat shielding for the board. I also drilled out the intake hole a bit. It's now the same size as the output hole. Interesting thing was that the gasket is now that size. I didn't have to cut it








The smoke unit body is getting a lot hotter now so I needed to figure out a way to add a heat sink. The mount that I purchased for the other train actually works perfectly. I'll have to cut the puff bar for the old smoke unit down but it will work perfectly and draw some heat away. 









It's impressive  Thanks again John. I can't wait to finish the upgrade.


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## L0stS0ul

Here's the first video with it running with the shell on. I've not done the head light yet but that's coming. That project will wait for tomorrow night. Smoke output looks to be almost twice what it was before. I did replace the Lionel batting with pink insulation. It's definitely smoking better now with that change and I know I'll have to replace it sooner but now it's a lot easier to work on.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Now, that's SMOKE!  Looks great.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks to you John it's all back up and functional :appl: 

I spent the night wiring up the lights. I followed your instructions and wired up the LED. I went with the smaller one and I think it's perfect. Was a nice straight forward upgrade. While I was wiring that up I also installed some lights my local train shop had in some k-line streamliners. I needed some LED lighting strips for the passenger cars so I picked up two of them today to fix 2 of them that don't have the streamlighting. Their original lighting sucked but the LED's were surprisingly affordable and $5 less than new k-line streamlighting without shipping. 

Tonight was not just lighting fix but also turned into a binding fix. I found several issues in the train that were causing binding in the drive train that I had not noticed before. I guess trying to make the train go slower to see the puffing made this visible. The linkages on the wheels were not installed properly at the factory and about once every 5 revolutions or so would bind up on the left side. I pulled all of the linkages off, cleaned them, then reinstalled making sure there was no binding. I did start at the motor and pulled that out, cleaned it, and then re-greased. Then I also found that the puffer bar was not cut close enough and was hitting the new cherry switch so I cut that down as well. There is a tiny bit of binding left that I have not found but it is significantly better now. 

Here are some pictures as it is now. If I could only source some longer screws the smoke unit mount could be installed without hot glue. I've not found longer ones yet. 

overview picture. The light is installed in the front and hot glued to the smoke unit mount. It works quite well without an official mount








Closer up pic of the light. It's an LED -> Diode -> resistor -> track power and it works perfectly. Thanks John
















This picture you can really see the cherry switch setup. The two of them are now pushing the bar back down as there is not a lot of weight to it now. Works well.








I'll post video of the lights in action soon


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## L0stS0ul

Here's the video. I couldn't be happier with how this upgrade came out. :smokin:


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## sanepilot

*smoke*

Hi,all Good job, lostsoul. i got a question for everyone. I gotta 1666 engine. when I start it up overnight or for awhile,it smokes good. After a minute or so it quits smoking. I took it apart and Looks like a wick inside the heat coil. I gently pulled up on it and it smokes decent and sometimes good. I`ve read here that someone put different wicking in one and cured the problem.

My question: I got room to put wicking around the outside of the coil. between the coil and chamber. Would this help any.

Weekend coming up,everyone enjoy:smilie_daumenpos:,Everett..Many thanks.


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## L0stS0ul

Does that engine have a fan driven smoke unit or a puffer type? Lionel has 2 types of batting that they sell as far as I know. The precut and the rope type. I hear the rope is better but I've not found some to try. My local train shop looked at me funny when I asked for it. I have the precut stuff that came with the fan smoke unit and it is ok. I've found that household pink insulation under a thin layer of the lionel precut works pretty well. The lionel stuff seems to resist scorching a lot better so used that against the resistor but the pink insulation holds the smoke fluid better so it smokes longer. Some people use tiki torch wick as well. Cut off the hard outside layer and use the fluffy inside layer. I've not tried it so I can't say if it's better or not.

If the resistor has batting fused to it take a hobby knife and gently clean it before putting it back together.

Most important thing with these smoke units is to not block the airflow. So no matter what type of smoke unit it is make sure that the air holes are open.


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## sanepilot

*smoke*

Hi,lostsoul.. I didn`t take it apart,it is still on the engine. Probably won`t as it looks critical to work on. I`m not too good working on small things,never was.I took the top off and can see down the chamber somewhat. I`m not sure what holds the two pieces of chamber together. I`ve got boiler packing like for a coal boiler door and it is rope and cottonlike. I intend when I get time to experiment with smokers. This is a good thread and I try to keep up with it. It is very informational.

Thanks,sanepilot have a good day.

My trouble is finding time to train play.


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## L0stS0ul

Here is a comparison video with my stock PS1 MTH 30-1119-1 Southern Pacific GS-4






The MTH smoke unit has more smoke volume at lower voltage but the Lionel has the ability to puff the smoke in sync with the chuff sound. I think the Lionel actually looks more realistic as the MTH really pushes that smoke high as it's running around the track. Both smoke units are very efficient and smoke for a long time without being filled. 

With the voltage set to about 10 both trains belt out an impressive amount of smoke as you can see right at the beginning. I'm very happy with both trains.

With both going around the track I'm afraid my smoke detectors will go off


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## L0stS0ul

I don't see much info on a 1666 locomotive. All of the pre and postwar ones didn't have a smoke unit as far as I can tell. If it's an old puffer type you can probably find a smoke unit upgrade kit for it. I installed one of these in my 726RR from 1952. You can see pictures from that upgrade here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=322314&postcount=82

The original smoke unit in that one took the pills and smoked ok with the smoke fluid. Once upgraded it smokes really really well with fluid.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Smoking like a house on fire now!


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks for all of the help. With both of those trains going the room gets quite smoky  

I guess my final question would be is there any way to get the lionel unit to produce more smoke at lower voltages? The MTH is really good at that. It could also be my technique. Do people usually prime these smoke units for a minute before taking off?


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## sanepilot

*smoke*

Me again.. Tnx for the link. I saw that post earlier. This unit is a mountain frieght 1666,2-4-2 configeration. Has a cast[pot metal] chamber that splits in the middle.It is either a lionel or Marx unit,not marked.It came with a Marx complete set I got a while back box and all.

tnx,sanepilot- Have a good evening:smokin:


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## L0stS0ul

There are a few posts about fixing MARX smoke units. 

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=12089

The 666 should be nearly the same I think
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=32218


Here's an ebay link to parts for that engine:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_n...Working Smoker Unit Only&_itemId=140777721135


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## sanepilot

*666*

Hi,lostsoul. That 666 engine is a sister to the 1666. I spent a few hours taking the smoker loose but I couldn`t get it away from the drive rods without messing them up so I put it back together. I`ve pulled wheels before and no fun. Doesn`t matter as I got plenty engines,I just happen to like that one LOL. I`ve worked on a lot of Marx and kinda like them better,preferably the older ones. I`ll check out those links,thanks a bunch
have a good weekend,I`m gonna move to my train building for the summer,things have slowed me down and I`ll be experimenting

salud,sanepilot:smokin:


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## L0stS0ul

I've never worked on a Marx. Only postwar lionel and a few lionel trains from the 90's. The Marx I've seen are interesting designs. Some of them are quite different. Good luck

I couldn't leave well enough alone and spent about 2 hours searching for the last bit of binding. You can see it a little in the video when the train is going backwards slowly. Right at the chuff it kinda hitches. It turns out that I had not cut the old puffer bar down enough and it was still slightly hitting the new cherry switch. Just enough to cause an issue at slow speed. Now I've got the puff bar cut down so that it's just at the wood block. That then caused the smoke to stay on as the switches couldn't push it back down so I swapped one of the washers on the screw holding the cherry switch plate to move it up a tiny bit. Now it is extremely smooth and I can really make it crawl around the track with no hitching and everything is working. :thumbsup: I'm still not sure I'm a fan of the growl of the pullmor motor but it is certainly unique. 

I've found that if I prime the smoke unit at around 10 volts or so for about 30 seconds on first startup that it smokes really really well. I'll have to keep an eye on the wick to make sure it doesn't get dried out but if I only do it right after I fill it I will hopefully be ok. If I want to do slow billowy puffs after it's been moving around a bit I just let it sit until I see the smoke sitting at the top of the stack and then move forward slowly. Usually only a couple of seconds. It's an amazing effect :smokin: There really is a lot of finesse to it but the effect is very worth it. I had both fan smokers going tonight for about 20 minutes and when I turned around the entire room was hazy and it's a very large room :smilie_daumenpos:


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## L0stS0ul

I've been continuing to tinker with this train and also push it. I am en engineer after all and love to test things to the extreme. I hooked up the max amount of cars to the j class on the outer loop. Turned out to be 16 cars with most of them being lighted passenger cars. I'm really impressed by this engine. It pulls it without issue and can really crawl around the track. I wasn't expecting that from this engine. 

This video was before the tinkering. Right after I took it things got a little hot :smokin: and one of my solder joints gave out on the resistor. Immediate drop in smoke output. I pulled the wire, re-tinned it, and then put a new blop (technical term) of solder on the other end. Now it's working well again. I also repacked the smoke unit. I used quite a bit less insulation this time and I think it's smoking much better at lower voltages now. I also fluffed the insulation more so less insulation is taking up the same amount of space. 

As with everything dealing with all of these trains, it seems to be a delicate balance to get things working best. I am enjoying tinkering with this stuff.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think you're "maxed out" on cars in that consist!


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## L0stS0ul

We just watched the N&W J 611 come into station in Manassas Virginia. What an amazing sight. My son was crazy excited


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## L0stS0ul

I was digging around on lionel's site and found that the N&W J Class #746 is basically an upgraded version of the 612 I have. There are some parts that looked interesting that mine is missing like the rear bulkhead. I've never liked that the pullmor motor is showing. It was only 8 bucks so I thought why not? It was part number 6101106256.I had to drill out some of it for the tender connection but it look SO much better. Now to find a smaller 4 pin connector. I swear lionel found the largest connector they could for the tender connection. 
















While I was purchasing things I also picked up some of the newer lionel smoke unit batting. I've not been too happy with the pink insulation. I picked up part number 691SMKP008 and it is producing much thicker smoke than the pink insulation at lower voltage. I don't have to prime the smoke unit as much as I did before. Probably why the pink insulation keeps melting. It was smoking pretty light for about 10 minutes on first install and then it really went to town. Quite happy with the lionel stuff!






This little train is really coming together. I've probably spent way to much on it but I've had a lot of fun.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You want a small 4-pin connector?

For the RailSounds, 1A should be more than sufficient.

Minitronics 4-pin mini connector

I use these for low power tethers.

Here they are on a K-Line Porter that I upgraded to command and chuffing smoke.


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## Lee Willis

Beautiful work on that Porter, John. 

Often having the right connector is the key to getting a good, clean "finish" to a product. Mini-tronics are the best, and now that 'The Shack' has closed everywhere, getting them on line really the only viable option. I always prefered going down to RS though, because I could root through the drawers and actually feel and look at the wiring/connector I was buying.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Thanks Lee, the Porter was a fun little project. They certainly are a PITA to open up, but most of the wiring was in the tender that I added. I did a thread here on the conversion when it was first done: K-Line Porter TMCC Conversion Project

I never saw connectors like the little ones at Minitronics at RS. The RS stores around here had less and less of the components I needed, and a few years ago I ceased to consider them when I needed electronic parts. I can remember a time with there were a number of well stocked electronics stores for hobbyists, Lafayette Electronics, Radio Shack, HeathKit, etc. Now the conversion is complete, they're all gone.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks for the link. That looks perfect and what a nice train you have there.


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## Lee Willis

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The RS stores around here had less and less of the components I needed . . . Lafayette Electronics, Radio Shack, HeathKit, etc. Now the conversion is complete, they're all gone.


RS here had few useful small components in the final few years - whether because RS didn't carry them nationally or the local store's manager had given up I can'
t say. But I did go by and clear out a bunch of component drawers at the very end: DPDT switches, connectors, rectifiers and such, which i know eventually I will need. 

Lafayette Electronics! Wow. Clearly we come out of the same generation. I also remember them, and I had a couple of Heathkits. and then there was Sterling electronics and Allied Radio. I did a lot of catalog business with both. The picture below shows one of my most prized possessions, right here on my desk - an a Allied Radio Knight-Kit "Star Roamer" five-band radio. I got one for Christmas when I was 14 and it was the first complex kit I did. I was telling my youngest boy aboutit several years ago, and that Christmas he and his fiance' gave me this one, which they found on a big internet website. It has been completely reconditioned. All tubes, taking a full minute to warm up. I'm listening to it right now, and very appropriately I think, it is playingd a repeat of a Casey Kasin Top-40 show from the 1970s . . . .


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## gunrunnerjohn

Hundreds of Heathkits under my belt, I had a little business in the Navy assembling them for people on my carrier. Lafayette Electronics typically had more discrete parts than RS, so it was useful to visit them when you needed building parts. Allied is still around, but they are just mail-order, and whenever I've tried to buy from them, it's always a raindance, or they stiff me with delivery. My go-to component places are Digikey and Mouser, if they don't have it, I redesign it.


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## Lee Willis

I like that "I re-design." 

I've never bought from Digikey, but have bought a lot from Mouser. Good place based on my experience.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Digikey is good for small orders, cheaper shipping. Both places are top shelf, you can't go wrong with either venue.


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## L0stS0ul

Is it normal for these lionel fan smoke units to take upwards of 5-10 minutes of fairly fast running to get the nice white poofing smoke? It will start smoking within 10-20 seconds but you can barely see it. To get the nice white cloud and poofs like in the video takes forever and sometimes never happens. 

I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

It's funny, I just picked up at auction a $45 MTH locosound 2-8-0 and that thing smokes awesome. Sounds horrible but is the best smoker I have yet. I wonder if they have a voltage regulator or something in there to keep the resistor hot. Those things start smoking well within a minute. I really like this little engine. It has the speed control and will just crawl around my table. I need to get some traction tires for it as it came with none but it's going to be a favorite I think. If only I could get the 612 to smoke like this. That would be awesome. This video is right at startup. As you can see it takes no time to get to full smoke. Just awesome. I think I've become a bit obsessed lol


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## L0stS0ul

I mucked with the j-class for a few hours tonight and could not get it to smoke well. It poofed well that one night and I was so excited and then it never did it again. It seems like the fan is really weak or something as when it is moving you can't see anything. My MTH train fan unit pushes that smoke really high up in the air that it's almost 5 inches up at speed (a little too much I think). I've read its the same fan motor so not sure why it wouldn't be doing the same on the j class. I've double checked that it's going the right way. It's rotating clockwise. When the train is moving more than a snail pace you can barely see any smoke and you can only see smoke at a snail pace after running it at 70-80 on the CW-80 for 5+ minutes. I'm not sure if that smoke stack thing is too long or something is blocking airflow or what. If the thing is sitting still I can get a good smoke out of it but once in motion nada. I think the 20 ohm resistor is burning the batting too quickly as well. I flipped the batting tonight because it was already scortched to the resistor. 

I'll get it figured out but maybe I picked the wrong smoke unit to use. It's also possible my expectation is to high for this thing. It's just not producing much smoke.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The big difference in the two is the smoke resistor voltage in the MTH is regulated so that the track voltage doesn't affect it, the smoke resistor voltage in the Lionel is right from track voltage. If you want consistent smoke at varied track voltages with the Lionel, you'll have to add a regulator and likely change the resistor. This is the reason that newer Lionel stuff has a smoke regulator.

The unregulated smoke unit isn't much of an issue with command as you always have constant voltage available, so you can tune the smoke performance based on that. For conventional running, the track voltage is all over the map.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks John. I have been reading up on voltage regulators and looking how this other train works. It has a LM2937ET voltage regulator inline to the AA-0000029 smoke unit. I can't find details on that smoke units resistor value though. If I could figure that out I could try to replicate it with the lionel unit.

I pulled the smoke unit apart and tested the resistor and it's reading at 27ohms right now and not 20. I might have cooked it. I put the original resistor back in for the time being while I figure out what's going on. I cleaned out the charred batting and put a little less in this time and also angled the resistor backwards a bit. It was angled toward the exit hole when I bought it. It's smoking a little better. I really want this thing to smoke well at slower speeds and not have to crank it up to high voltage. I have a Lionel 18 ohm wire wound resistor from an old puffer unit (i think) laying around. I wonder if that would work as long as I don't push the voltage high.


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## gunrunnerjohn

What kind of wick are you using?

I suggest you try Lionel 691-SMKP-008 8" Rope Smoke Wick

As far as the LM2937ET regulator, where do you see that? That's a pretty small unit, not really up to smoke regulation I would think.


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## L0stS0ul

I picked up the lionel rope smoke wick and that is what I am using

This is the pdf from MTH on the parts for the unit
http://mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/download/exploded/30rtr12231e.pdf

it looks like part 13 is for the smoke unit but I've not found a wiring diagram for the train. Maybe that's for the light? seems overkill for a light. It did seem a bit small for smoke. I'm assuming that smoke unit has a 15ohm resistor.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I thought that number sounded familiar. That's not for the smoke unit, that's for the electronics, it's bolted to the frame of the loco as a heatsink. The regulation for the smoke unit is done on the PS/2 board using PWM power control. If you were to look at the waveform to the smoke resistor on a 'scope , you'd find a high frequency waveform that is a bit more amplitude than the track voltage, it's duty cycle varies according to the smoke demand and is microprocessor controlled.


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## L0stS0ul

They have done a really good job with that cause that engine has awesome smoke effects. I guess the search continues


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## gunrunnerjohn

If I were doing this upgrade, I would have used the MTH smoke unit. For conventional operation, I'd have included one of the readily available switching power supply modules with a bridge rectifier for AC input. That gives you well over an amp of 5-6 volt power, that will pour out the smoke from the MTH smoke unit.


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## L0stS0ul

I've learned a lot but that is all latin to me and that is likely outside my ability at the moment. I knew lionel parts would be sub optimal but I had the best chance of fitting them in the engine without major modification which is why I went with it. I feel like I gotta be doing something wrong though. My upgrade doesn't even look like some of the videos I've seen of other engines with this smoke unit. Those videos look a lot more impressive and the fan really pushes that smoke up. This smoke unit is not really pushing the smoke far out of the engine at more than a snails pace.


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## gunrunnerjohn

There may indeed be something wrong, I'm at a loss as to what. If the output stack is unobstructed, how much smoke do you get in neutral with 16-16 volts on the track? If the fan isn't running full sped at that point, something is wrong.

I went back and reviewed your installation pictures, I see several things that might be a problem.

#1 is the way the smoke unit has tape on both sides of the intake hole and is then shoved all the way up into the boiler shell. If you don't have sufficient airflow to the input, you won't get much velocity out of the stack.

#2 you should drill out the intake hole to around 1/4" for more airflow. Don't forget to punch the hole in the gasket larger as well.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks John,

I have changed how the smoke unit is mounted. I am now using the mount that I purchased. It might be a little close to the shell but it's not butted up to it anymore. Since I took this picture I have cut down the smoke stack thing. I could not find one on lionel's site that would be suitable and I had this thing (not even sure what it is) in with my RC plane stuff and it seems to work well. I think it was too long though so I cut it down so that it just fits into the hole of the shell. I had increased the hole a little but then made it even bigger when I had it apart last time. I'll take a little video of it. It seems like it works really well on the bench but once on the track it does not do as well.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'd try to determine what's different on the bench vs. the track. Sounds like you could still have airflow issues, but it's hard to say.

I can't imagine why shortening the stack would help, I make them long enough to insure I don't get smoke fluid outside the smoke unit.


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## L0stS0ul

Well, I've found 2 things so far that were interesting. First thing was that I think the trace is no longer good, maybe my poor soldering skills caused an issue there so I wired it direct. Second, and this is the really strange one, I'm only getting 0-14v out of the CW-80 at the power terminals. I'm seeing the same voltage on the track. I don't remember seeing it that low when I tested it before. I only have the CW-80 attached to the track and that's the only thing it has ever powered. I guess it's dying. The z-1000 is showing 17.1V at max throttle on the track but it's powering a bunch of accessories as well. 

I really have this love hate relationship with trains right now. Some days I love them and some days, like the last few days, I am really frustrated by them.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'd say the low voltage may be getting even lower when you put a load on it, that could certainly affect the smoke. A trick with DC motors that I confess I haven't tried with AC motors is to use series back-to-back diode pairs to drop the voltage to the motor in relation to the smoke unit. This slows the engine down and allows higher voltage to the smoke unit for the same throttle setting. More voltage, more smoke. You might take a look at that option and see how it works out, I'd start with four diode pairs in series with the field motor lead to the reverse board.

Two of these Bridge Rectifier from Digikey will do the trick, they're 90 cents each, shipping is only a couple of dollars. Each bridge has four diodes, so they'll serve as two diode pairs. They're more compact than four 3 amp diodes.


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## L0stS0ul

I do have 5 lighted passenger cars and a lighted caboose behind it so that might be something. Maybe I'm overloading the CW-80. I'll pull the cars off and check the voltage after I do that. 

Cutting the stack down did help make the smoke look better. It was coming out looking a little thin and now it's looking better for the stack size. I was getting a little glazing over the top of the engine as well that I would have to wipe up when it was nearly coming out the top. 

Here's the bench testing video. This is with the resistor that comes with the smoke unit. I tested it at 27ohms.






I'm really debating the mth option as I have spent a ton of time on this one and I think the smoke unit is about dead with all of the tinkering. I could also just go with a postwar puffer in this one and give up on the fan unit. Not sure it's worth putting $50+ more into it. 

I really can't thank you enough for all of the help with this.


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## L0stS0ul

Playing with it some more I think this smoke unit really wants to be at 12v. Anything lower and the smoke output is not enough to fill the smoke reservoir. This train is flying around the track at 12v and at that point it's moving to fast for it to keep up. I usually am running the train around at 8-10v. The option you mentioned sounds like a possible option. If I could get it running at slow-medium speed at 12v that would give the smoke unit enough to smoke well. 

I pulled all of the cars off the track and the CW-80 still reads 14.1v maxed out so I have an issue there. The unit is less than a year old so will contact lionel about it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'd pick up a few of the bridge rectifiers, and we'll help you get them installed, it's a simple process.


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## L0stS0ul

I'll get some of them ordered. Thanks for the part link. It's hard for me to find things on that site. 

CW-80 is at the lionel repair place. Once they confirm the warranty I should get a new one. fun fun


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## L0stS0ul

Since I'm ordering stuff I was thinking about picking up a few resistors to try. Is this the type I should look at?

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AC03000002209JAC00/PPC3W22.0CT-ND/596629


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, those will work fine. I find they work a bit better if I knock the powdered ceramic coating off with the Dremel wheel.


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## L0stS0ul

Parts are ordered so will hopefully be here mid next week. 

I was looking at the electric rail road company website and they have the cruise commander lite. I wonder if that would work with the pullmor motors? It's not clear on their site. Is that a complete replacement for the stock e-unit? Looks like it has chuff and smoke output. It would be pretty cool to get the cruise control feature. I didn't realize how cool it was till I got this MTH engine. If it would work with my engine I might think about saving up for it.


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## L0stS0ul

Nevermind on the cruise commander lite but I do see the AC Commander. It has a smoke output as well. I wonder if that is regulated? Might make a nice upgrade down the road. The railsounds upgrade might be nice for the MTH locosound one too.


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## gunrunnerjohn

None of the cruise boards will work with AC motors, they're strictly for DC motors. It does not have chuff capability, it just takes the chuff switch signal and sends it along to the audio board. I use both the Cruise Commander and the Lite version in upgrades.


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## gunrunnerjohn

All the ERR stuff is really made with command operation and constant track voltage in mind. The outputs of any of the ERR boards for smoke are simply half-wave rectified track voltage, so the answer on regulation is no.


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## L0stS0ul

Good to know about the limits on that. Too bad they don't offer the cruise for AC motors. I think I read on the site that they may make a version at some point. That would be cool. I am considering the railsound upgrade for the mth engine. It's quickly becoming a favorite engine of mine and I only paid $45 for it. It just sounds horrible


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think it's very unlikely you'll ever see ERR do a cruise for AC motors. Jon Z., who is the engineer behind much of their products (and much of Lionel's newer stuff) actually spend quite a bit of time trying to do a version that would have decent performance, but he abandoned the effort.


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## L0stS0ul

The parts from Digikey came in today. I have 2 bridge rectifiers along with 25, 22, and 18 ohm resistors to play with. I'm assuming the bridge rectifiers are connected in series but where in the chain do I put them? Right off the track power leading into the E-Unit? Which way do they get connected? 

Thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn

You connect the *+* & *-* leads together on each bridge rectifier, and insulate that connection from anything else. You connect the two *~* AC input leads in series with the other bridge and insert that combo into the field lead to the motor.

Here's a diagram and a picture of a typical bridge rectifier. You can see what you end up with is four sets of diodes in each direction. This drops the AC voltage to the motor several volts and improves the smoke as it allows more voltage to the smoke motor for the same speeds.


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## L0stS0ul

ok, I'm trying to make sense of that. Let me see if I can describe what I would do based off that and we'll see if I'm correct 

Step 1. On each bridge rectifier solder a wire between the + and - and insulate each connection completely. I am not soldering the 2 bridge rectifiers together... (that's a question)

Step 2. I solder one of the ac leads from rectifier 1 to the opposite ac lead on rectifier 2

Step 3. Cut the center connection from the motor (I believe that is the field coil) in half and solder the rectifiers from step 2 in side

Is there a current flow to the rectifiers that I have to worry about? The AC does not have an in and out.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The purpose of the dual diodes back-to-back is to pass full-wave AC and just drop some voltage. No polarity needs be observed. You're description is correct, you use the remaining two leads to splice into the field coil of the motor. The field coil is the let that goes to the fixed coil, the other two wires go to the individual brushes.


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## L0stS0ul

I will give it a try tonight. Thanks for the help.


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## L0stS0ul

Here are the 2 rectifiers soldered up. Does this look right? I have not tested it yet to see if it works or how much voltage drop I get. I just got done soldering it and realized it's after midnight.. heh I need to get to bed.


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## gunrunnerjohn

That certainly looks right.


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## L0stS0ul

We have a winner!!!! I can't thank you enough GunrunnerJohn. Without you keeping with me I would never have gotten to this point. :smilie_daumenpos: Thank you!

In the end here is the modification I ended up with:

6100401162 - CHERRY SWITCH (DG23-B1LA) 3A 125V
Hot Glued to the existing cherry switch and connected inline to the positive motor wire.

6108057200 - FAN DRIVEN SMOKE UNIT / RECT / DIESEL / 27 OHM
After much testing I've ended up back with the original 27 OHM resistor. Intake hole increased in size and using Lionel rope smoke wick

6308035204 - BRACKET / SMOKE UNIT / SCALE PACIFIC
Used to mount the smoke unit. Hot glued in place but screwed into smoke unit. Also works as heat sink.

And the part that brought it all together. 2 bridge rectifiers soldered into the field coil wire. It looks to have dropped the voltage to the motor by about 2 volts. It's hard to say for certain. Not sure where to probe it but what was at 1/4 on the throttle is now at 1/2 and the smoke unit is a TON happier.

Not to mention (not related to the smoke unit but an improvement as well) Custom LED lighting: 3mm warm-white LED hot glued to the smoke unit mount, a 1N4001 diode, and a 470 ohm 1/4W resistor to track power for the head light.

Now for the final pictures and video 

Overview of the wiring. The rectifiers are soldered into the green wire leading to the field coil. Nice and neat I think. At least for me 








Close Up :smokin:








And here it is. The final outcome. Even comparing to my brand new (to me) MTH PS2 2-8-0 engine. With the stock 27 ohm resistor this thing is smoking really well! Quite close close to the MTH engine and takes a lot less longer to get up and smoking. It used to take 5-10 minutes and tonight it was taking 15-20 seconds. Still more than the MTH but a massive improvement. Even at high speed I can see the smoke :smokin: So awesome





Just finished building some shelves to store the trains. I need to make a lot more with all the engines and cars I have accumulated. Thanks Trainz auctions lol. Going to paint the walls around the table a sky blue soon. Should look a lot better I think.


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## gunrunnerjohn

WOW, that did more than I expected, looks great!  Persistence pays off.


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## L0stS0ul

It's working extremely well and I am extremely happy with it. With a conventional layout the rectifiers are the key with these lionel engines.  Thanks again. 

Now I may need to get a new pcb board for the smoke unit cause I've torn this one up lol


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's working, let sleeping dogs lie.


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## L0stS0ul

Only if this one completely gives out.


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## L0stS0ul

One last video. I wanted to compare the before and after. It's crazy 

The 27 ohm resistor gave out recently, most likely due to the soldering and unsoldering of it during all of the testing. I replaced it with an 18 ohm resistor I had lying around from one of the old puffer smoke units. Still working awesome.


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