# HO-scale layout on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood ?



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Most newbies end up building their first layout using HO-scale trains & track mounted on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. Why?
While hundreds of such layouts have been built, and doubtless hundreds more will be, the fact is that there are some pretty serious limitations inherent in this choice, and there are often better choices available.

The reasons so many newbies build this type of layout are somewhat nebulous, and often due simply to their very lack of experience. Here are a few examples I've heard multiple times from various newbies on the forum.
Blue = Newbie's "Reason" 
Yellow = My suggested alternative

1) Plywood comes from the store in 4' x 8' sheets. 

 1) It doesn't have to stay that size & shape. Saws can make it smaller, even right at the store. Screws, glue, & more wood, can make it wider and/or longer. 

2) Most/all of the track plans I've found are designed for a 4 x 8 

2) You can draw your own plan. also, there are other plans published not designed for
a 4 x 8. 

3) A 4 x 8 is all I can fit into my available space.

3) Are you sure? What about a shelf layout? Have you considered a smaller scale, and table? What about using a shared space. Have you looked at any shape other than a contiguous rectangular slab? 

Now before anyone goes ballistic about their wonderful first HO 4 x 8 layout and all they learned from it, let me say that I have built one also, and yes I had fun with it at first, and did learn things from it. 
Some of the things I learned (the hard way) are that you can't fit much HO-scale track on a 4 x 8 and that your main line will end up being an oval, two concentric ovals, or an oval with a figure eight inside it. Why?
Because of some basic geometry, that's why. In short, nothing else will fit.

Yes, you can have as many sidings, and/or "branch lines" that barely "branch" more than a pitifully short distance off the main oval, but that's about it.

The curves on the inner oval, or figure eight, are going to be very tight. (typically 18" radius) They have to be, in order to have an outer track loop at all, within that 4' table width.
Those 18" radius curves are likely to limit what kind of locomotives and cars you will be able to run, with any real chance of staying on the rails reliably.

The 22" radius curves typically used on the outer loop, will crowd the edges of a 4 x 8 table closely enough to risk dropping trains onto the floor.

A recent post in the HO-scale section of the forum, titled "Radius Problem" posted by pdecesare, illustrates this difficulty. He wrote in saying that his six-axle diesel locomotives derailed a lot on his turnouts. He said he fit in a 22" radius curved section where he could, but he couldn't re-lay his track using all 22" radius curves because of the limited width (4') of his table. The turnouts he was using were Atlas "Snap Switches." He ended up replacing all the "Snap Switches" (which contain a very tight approximation of an 18" radius curve in one route) with Atlas "Custom Line" #6 turnouts (which have two straight routes, & no curved route) That solved his immediate problem. Trains could pass through the turnouts without derailing. He could have added an extension to the table width and been able to use all 22" radius curves and the #6 turnouts. In my opinion, that might have been a more permanent solution, but its his railroad.

So, newbies, (and maybe some not-so-newbies), try to stop yourself from thinking in terms of 4 x 8 rectangular solid slabs. We often tend to do that subconsciously. There are other shapes for model railroads. In my opinion, the best shape is one that gives the illusion of the shape of most real railroads, a long, skinny, & mostly straight, line. If you have any questions about how to do this, just ask.

Traction Fan


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## Roy Merritt (10 mo ago)

traction fan said:


> The reasons so many newbies build this type of layout are somewhat nebulous, and often due simply to their very lack of experience.


Profound.  Sorry, had to do it. That is a classic line.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

To answer your question , "Why?; IMO most people coming into the hobby, or any hobby, do it without a lot of planning. They may see starter set around Christmas in stores like Hobby Lobby and think that looks like a nice hobby. They buy the set and with a little research see all kinds of track plans on a 4x8 board. It's after they are running their new layout they get bitten by the expansion bug and that's when they realize all the points made in the OP. The manufacturers know this which is why you see so many starter sets still being produced. If they were losing money on these entry level products they would stop but it leads to bringing new people into and expanding the hobby with the higher end products. How many of us here didn't begin with a starter set? It's all about marketing, follow the money.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Without before hand research, they don't really know what they need to know to begin the hobby past a circle or oval of track..


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Gramps said:


> To answer your question , "Why?; IMO most people coming into the hobby, or any hobby, do it without a lot of planning. They may see starter set around Christmas in stores like Hobby Lobby and think that looks like a nice hobby. They buy the set and with a little research see all kinds of track plans on a 4x8 board. It's after they are running their new layout they get bitten by the expansion bug and that's when they realize all the points made in the OP. The manufacturers know this which is why you see so many starter sets still being produced. If they were losing money on these entry level products they would stop but it leads to bringing new people into and expanding the hobby with the higher end products. How many of us here didn't begin with a starter set? It's all about marketing, follow the money.


Gramps;

Exactly.
That's the point of my post, and the files I've written for beginners. Most people do start with a train set, and sometimes they find problems with that approach later on. Will anything I've written here prevent all, or even anything like most, newcomers from starting out with an HO trainset on a 4 x 8? Nope! Not a chance. However, since its in the "Beginner's Q&A" section, it is quite possible that some newbies may read it and decide to think twice about it. That's my hope anyway.

You are correct about train sets being popular, and readily available in stores. Though Hobby Lobby may not be the best example. When I asked about model trains there they showed me their entire stock of model railroad merchandise. It consisted of four Bachmann train sets. Two in HO, and two in N, that was it.

You're also correct that the manufacturers know that their train sets will sell, and that if those sets didn't sell, they wouldn't make any. I'll also grant that, in a way, the manufacturers of train sets do help recruit new model railroaders. Which is fine.

I'm not trying to condemn train sets, or 4 x 8 layouts. I'm merely trying to point out some of the problems that are likely to come up, hopefully as early on as possible. A better-informed consumer is a good thing.
Also if someone reads what I've written, and decides they prefer a 4 x 8 layout in HO-scale, more power to them. That is, and certainly should be, their choice, not mine, or anyone else's. But its hard to make an informed choice without information. That's all I'm trying to do, provide a little information, and let the reader decide what they want.

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Without before hand research, they don't really know what they need to know to begin the hobby past a circle or oval of track..


MichaelE;

You're right. See my response to Gramps above.

Traction Fan


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Reminds me of a saying: "You don't know what you don't know."

In other words, most people don't realize there may be options that they may not be aware of.

"I didn't know I was ignorant."

Ignorant, being uninformed...


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I agree with you Traction Fan, I was attempting to answer the "Why?" in your first sentence. Your postings on advice for newbies are excellent and my point was they don't see the advice until after their purchase.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Such layouts are what are typically displayed at the entrance to hobby shops due to their compactness and geometry. They can fit in a corner where they're safer buttressed on two sides, tucked somewhat out of the way, especially if they fit behind one of the two panes of glass on either side of a door. Like so many of us, we intuitively see something and think, 'I can do that.'

It seems that a great many of us, if not all of us, at times find an intuitive approach to problem-solving or problem definition works without too much cost for errors. Unfortunately, hobby shops, themselves, are only too eager to sell Son 'n Pop an easy solution. You can spend a paltry $400 and be up and running in an hour. It will be on black-based steel EZ-Track, or even on the 'good stuff', but it will run poorly for all the reasons we understand after playing with toy trains for a coupla weeks. They might run it on the floor for the first two weeks until Dad can get to the hardware store, or until he gets or builds a couple of sawhorses. That sort of thing.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Or they get bored because they don't know about the many options, chuck it all in the attic and leave the hobby before they even begin.


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## PrairieKnight (Nov 10, 2015)

Traction Fan.... I totally understand and agree. A more informed person just starting out in the hobby is a great thing. If I had looked into the hobby further before starting my 4 X 8 ...... I would have done a whole bunch of things differently. If only the hobby shops would point to forums such as this to any person that walks into the establishment before they run the credit card through on a first time model railroad purchase that will most likely lead to a double oval on a 4 X 8 ... that would be great. But in the end, I only have myself to blame....... I did not look further before I started. And thanks to you and others on this and other forums... I am expanding my original 4 X 8 and having a lot of fun doing it. Thank you.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

A couple of nice things about the 4x8 introduction. 
You don’t need a saw, not everyone has a saw. But if you do cut them up, you can make all sorts of configurations, like a 32 foot long shelf. 
Same goes for foam, which most people use… having simply swapped one sheet product for another.

The other nice thing about 4x8s is becoming more relevant with current pricing trends and the (ever entertaining) younger generations. Say you couldn’t pay your Athearn bill. Three debt collectors are gonna spend an entire afternoon trying to figure out how to cut a 4x8 layout into three parts. Unless they’re Boomers, who never even saw a conundrum (cough-split the proceeds). In down & out times a simple 4x8 can provide that extra something… “yeah, they’re gonna be back after lunch, still struggling with how to do it. Whippersnappers.” Ok I’m just trying to give some chuckles to your day. Probably failed.
But 4x8s are kinda cool. Cut in half length wise is 2x16…. That’s a heck of a switching corridor. Add a full 4x8 in the middle as a peninsula (more likely start with that) to create a continuous loop, and it’s a decent dimension to start from. Or 2 full 4x8 “closed loop” tables with a 4 foot span connecting them… Think we’ve all seen that. It’s pretty versatile.

I’ve got a pair of 5x8 switching layouts that need to be built. While they are technically “self-contained,” they happen to get deliveries from my main yard. They’re my refineries. So 4x8s (or 5x8s) are marvelous for switching layouts centered around one massive industry, like a steel mill or a locomotive service facility, with a roll out workbench underneath (that was my second layout years ago). I think the dimensions are underrated. It’s very versatile once you think outside the common loop-de-loop mentality.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Every time someone says they bought a 4'x8' ply to plop trains down on, I cringe because of what I too learned from such a mistake..But that was circa 1955.. Why this archaic 1940s style train board is still lingering is beyond me since there are so many great layout pics showing nothing like that but instead are either shelf/around the walls, FREMO style, or what I prefer, open grid/L girder construction..
If folks would first read books with names like "MRR Benchwork" they'd more likely adopt grid or girder benchwork which makes grades and several other aspects much much easier to be had..
Of course buy sheet plywood to be sawn up into strips of sub roadbed..That's necessary.
The other thing is, too many who do go flat 4x8 never put an access hole or holes in it and instead, if one 8' side is against a wall, wind up trying desperately to reach across it to rescue a train, do scenery, clean track, when grid bench makes all that so easy...
I mean no offense toward those who do..It's only that I know the flat 4x8 is so limiting that you'd think it'd be gone by now, what with all the advances that have occurred; knuckle couplers on HO and smaller (Lionel O has always had a form of knuckle), DCC/Sound, shallow flanges, AR, radio, PC control, 5 pole skewed, 3D printing, et al...
We've come a long way, baby. Why is a certain '40s style benchwork still around ? The OP is right. 🛤


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

PrairieKnight said:


> Traction Fan.... I totally understand and agree. A more informed person just starting out in the hobby is a great thing. If I had looked into the hobby further before starting my 4 X 8 ...... I would have done a whole bunch of things differently. If only the hobby shops would point to forums such as this to any person that walks into the establishment before they run the credit card through on a first time model railroad purchase that will most likely lead to a double oval on a 4 X 8 ... that would be great. But in the end, I only have myself to blame....... I did not look further before I started. And thanks to you and others on this and other forums... I am expanding my original 4 X 8 and having a lot of fun doing it. Thank you.


The first priority of the hobby shop, or any business, is to "run the credit card", it's how they stay solvent. They may be very helpful after that first purchase but they don't want you walking out the door because they discouraged you. Don't blame yourself, it's how they keep repeat customers in any business.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Gramps said:


> The first priority of the hobby shop, or any business, is to "run the credit card", it's how they stay solvent. They may be very helpful after that first purchase but they don't want you walking out the door because they discouraged you. Don't blame yourself, it's how they keep repeat customers in any business.


Exactly. That's why I say never take advice on what to buy from a guy with something to sell. If I hobby shop sells only NCE DCC systems, guess which one he's going to recommend for you?

And at the risk of being overly cynical, they probably see newbies as an opportunity to unload dead stock that they haven't been able to sell.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

And just to amplify a little on the "train chasing its tail" concept. I thought I was being really clever with my first layout, because I actually had a choice of routes. Then I started realizing, "When should I switch the route? What's the point of sending the train around on that other route, anyway?" And not long after that, "You know, I don't really have much to do on this layout." And that's when I finally realize that the reason these "great" layouts have all these industries, yards, etc, isn't because they look cool, or because real railroads have them, but because they give the operator something to do.

Not that I'm saying that you HAVE to feel this way about your layout, but newbies should be prepared for the fact that they may come to that moment.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramps said:


> The first priority of the hobby shop, or any business, is to "run the credit card", it's how they stay solvent. They may be very helpful after that first purchase but they don't want you walking out the door because they discouraged you. Don't blame yourself, it's how they keep repeat customers in any business.


I got very lucky then. Before I started the hobby or made my first purchase, I must have made four or five visits to the LHS asking questions and talking to them. I was told how to start with DC and then slowly expand into DCC. They explained about starting with an oval and then expanding it. We used Kato track sets and expansion sets as a starting point until we decided on a layout plan. It was because of this helpfulness that I brought my son in one the last visit and picked out a set to buy. 

We made a lot of mistakes by not even knowing what questions to ask, but it was our fault not the advice we received.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

GUILTY!!!!
hmmm, guess I can take back the 4x8 sheet a plywood I brought....
If/when I do another layout other than the diorama I just did I will think outside the 4x8 box.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Steve Rothstein said:


> I got very lucky then. Before I started the hobby or made my first purchase, I must have made four or five visits to the LHS asking questions and talking to them. I was told how to start with DC and then slowly expand into DCC. They explained about starting with an oval and then expanding it. We used Kato track sets and expansion sets as a starting point until we decided on a layout plan. It was because of this helpfulness that I brought my son in one the last visit and picked out a set to buy.
> 
> We made a lot of mistakes by not even knowing what questions to ask, but it was our fault not the advice we received.


Steve;

That sounds like an exceptionally good hobby shop! Support it as much as you can, and keep having fun. That's what any hobby is for. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

GTW son said:


> GUILTY!!!!
> hmmm, guess I can take back the 4x8 sheet a plywood I brought....
> If/when I do another layout other than the diorama I just did I will think outside the 4x8 box.


GTW;

No need to feel guilty, (assuming you're serious.) A 4 x 8 layout isn't "wrong." It simply has some limits which may not be obvious. Many good layouts have been built on slab tables, whether a sheet of plywood, a hollow core door, or a sheet of extruded foam. If you are a new modeler, you might want to try reading my files, and/or any of several fine beginner's books.
One I recommend is "Getting Started in Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. Its a very good "first book" for newbies. You can order a copy on Amazon.
My Beginner's files are all in the "Beginner's Q & A" section of this forum, in a thread called "Help a new modeler to get started."

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

PrairieKnight said:


> Traction Fan.... I totally understand and agree. A more informed person just starting out in the hobby is a great thing. If I had looked into the hobby further before starting my 4 X 8 ...... I would have done a whole bunch of things differently. If only the hobby shops would point to forums such as this to any person that walks into the establishment before they run the credit card through on a first time model railroad purchase that will most likely lead to a double oval on a 4 X 8 ... that would be great. But in the end, I only have myself to blame....... I did not look further before I started. And thanks to you and others on this and other forums... I am expanding my original 4 X 8 and having a lot of fun doing it. Thank you.


PrairieKnight;

You're welcome, and keep on having fun with your layout.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Roy Merritt said:


> Profound.  Sorry, had to do it. That is a classic line.


How about this for a classic line? From Feb. 7, 2021. After a thread went off the rails. Partial TF reply in quotes (pasted from thread) 

“Sideways;

None of the drama is your fault, we weird old geezers just went a bit crazy. “

🤣😂😅 II showed it to the wife. 

TF became her instant hero at that point. ‘Finally someone speaks the truth’!


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Gramps said:


> To answer your question , "Why?; IMO most people coming into the hobby, or any hobby, do it without a lot of planning. They may see starter set around Christmas in stores like Hobby Lobby and think that looks like a nice hobby. They buy the set and with a little research see all kinds of track plans on a 4x8 board. It's after they are running their new layout they get bitten by the expansion bug and that's when they realize all the points made in the OP. The manufacturers know this which is why you see so many starter sets still being produced. If they were losing money on these entry level products they would stop but it leads to bringing new people into and expanding the hobby with the higher end products. How many of us here didn't begin with a starter set? It's all about marketing, follow the money.


True, and I think the 4x8 sheet is a traditional method passed down through generations and will continue to be. 

Some of my best memories with my dad involved model trains. We ran American Flyer S scale which were originally bought for my older sisters. I got a newer set for Christmas one year. 

We decided to put a layout in my room and I have a clear memory of dad carrying a 4x8 sheet of 1/2” plywood four city blocks from the lumber yard. He didn’t want to tie it onto the roof of the ‘53 Chevy. 😃
We tacked down some grass mat. Later on we painted it green. Another Christmas saw a Penn Line HO Pennsy set. Still have it. The Flyers went back under the tree. 

Fast Forward to 10 years ago: Dad was long gone. I was aware of the more advanced layout designs, but knew we would be moving. So I took a 4x8, painted it green and for then it was ok. (I didn’t cut it into modules, I was lucky to have my crew to move it.)
No, the 4x8 for HO is not the ideal layout base, but sometimes we just follow the heart.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

My last layout was the Great Eastern Trunk Atlas 4x8 layout. I was in the Air Force living in Military Family Housing at the time and did not have a lot of room in the spare bedroom. I wanted bigger, and I knew how to build it, but it was not practical at the time. The 4x8 fit the room with space to walk around it on three sides. It was perfect under the circumstances. I could run two trains continuously, or one continuously and some light switching.

It only lasted three years and was much easier to take down than the room-filling 11x13 layout I have now would have been.

They do have their place in the model railroading hobby.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Re; Post #7*: That's not quite right. Ignorant and uninformed are not exactly the same...
If you were never informed the train club was dark on Mondays and you go there only to find it locked does not make you ignorant; only uniformed.. If you skip getting vaxed for Covid on purpose, makes you ignorant. I.E. You were informed of the dangers but ignored it...An American not learning the national anthem makes him ignorant.. (wrongly) giving aspirin to an infant is being uninformed.. Not capitalizing the words: white house (to White House) makes me ignorant.. Not knowing to change the oil in one's car deems one uninformed. Not knowing the Red Sea is not in England makes one ignorant.
See what I mean ?
If the reader believes I'm wrong, please inform me as to why, or else I'll be uninformed of the group's take on it !
Since I'm wishing to hear from you and you don't reply would not mean I'm ignorant of your presence and possible agreement or disagreement with me; only uninformed......


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Take the 4' x 8' and cut it into 1' x 8' sections and then make a 9' x 9' which can be free standing with legs or mounted as a shelf on the walls. This will give you 36' of running with about 24" radius curves, more if you put a triangular piece in the corners.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

@traction fan Sorta serious, my layout is on a door that was supposed to be on a cold storage room in our cellar that was never installed by the builder. Its a great solid stable base but weighs a bloody ton. I did this layout some 12-15 years ago
so of course its a rectangle like a 4x8.
I don't know if another layout is in works, retirement has kinda curtailed my disposable income stream.
If something new does come down the pipe I have certainly been educated by this site and You Tube videos.
At some point may/will start picking up track and turnouts over time for a more imaginative layout.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

traction fan said:


> Most newbies end up building their first layout using HO-scale trains & track mounted on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. Why?
> Traction Fan


Why not?

I see no problem with beginners building a layout on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. Atlas makes nice little layout books for HO scale and N-scale with various plans that feature a handful of different types of running/operation for just such a size. In the case of a beginner, they have to start somewhere. They are not going to gain experience by thinking "outside the box", and then starting out with something that ultimately ends up being far more than they care to chew on. Heck, most beginners would love nothing more than to get some track down and start running trains. And a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood allows them to do this quickly and conveniently.

I think a lot of hobby shop owners realize this too, and could be the reason that they have no problem with allowing beginners to start out on 4' x 8' sheets of plywood. They want to see them successful in the hobby, and they know that there is no substitute like easy, hands-on experience to start getting their feet wet before they can advance to more complex aspects of the hobby.

Has anyone ever heard of a model railroader named John Allen? He built a magnificent HO scale model railroad in his basement known as the "Gorre and Daphetid". However, it didn't start out as a basement-sized, sprawling model railroad. Rather, it started out on a sheet of plywood slightly smaller than 4' x 8'! Yes, even a giant like John Allen had to start somewhere, and gain experience before he could move onward and upward.

I have to wonder then, if John Allen had started out building his massive layout on the outset instead of learning on something smaller and more easily manageable, how far he would have made it before quitting in exasperation, thrown everything out in the trash, and taken up knitting instead?

Don't knock a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. Heck, even to this day, as long as I've been into model railroading, I still think about building another small layout or two on a sheet of plywood. I even have a few favorite 4' x 8' HO scale plans that I would love to build as is, except nail down N-scale trackage in place of the HO scale track that is shown.

How's that for thinking outside the box?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Mixed Freight said:


> Why not?
> 
> I see no problem with beginners building a layout on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood. Atlas makes nice little layout books for HO scale and N-scale with various plans that feature a handful of different types of running/operation for just such a size. In the case of a beginner, they have to start somewhere. They are not going to gain experience by thinking "outside the box", and then starting out with something that ultimately ends up being far more than they care to chew on. Heck, most beginners would love nothing more than to get some track down and start running trains. And a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood allows them to do this quickly and conveniently.
> 
> ...


Sounds much more like thinking INSIDE that 4x8 box to me.

What is really in question here is whether you start with something small and manageable vice trying an enormous basement-spanning empire without prior experience. 32 square feet is a pretty manageable size. But I would argue that future John Allens would be MUCH better served by building two 2x8 modules for that same 32 square feet, or even FOUR of those modules arranged in a donut shape. This would allow him to potentially re-use those modules as part of a larger layout later on, and would give him experience in managing realistic track arrangements rather than the "oval with variations" that is really all you can fit on that sheet of plywood. THAT's what I would call thinking outside the box.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Adding an L-shaped "extension" to one end of the 4x8 can greatly expand its possibilities.

I started with the MRR "Black River Junction" plan:








... but made the extension 4" wider so I could have a more complete "yard" on one side, with a runaround and 3 storage tracks.

I also squeezed in a few more industrial tracks.

This way, I can make up out an "outbound" train while other engines put together the "inbound" train out from the industrial areas. Then the road freight goes out, does a couple of loops, while a "transfer job" brings out the inbound train. The trains get swapped, the road job heads back while the industrial engines spot the new loads. It's really more of a "local freight/switching" operation than a simple "loop-the-loop" layout.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

CTValleyRR said:


> Sounds much more like thinking INSIDE that 4x8 box to me.
> 
> What is really in question here is whether you start with something small and manageable vice trying an enormous basement-spanning empire without prior experience. 32 square feet is a pretty manageable size. But I would argue that future John Allens would be MUCH better served by building two 2x8 modules for that same 32 square feet, or even FOUR of those modules arranged in a donut shape. This would allow him to potentially re-use those modules as part of a larger layout later on, and would give him experience in managing realistic track arrangements rather than the "oval with variations" that is really all you can fit on that sheet of plywood. THAT's what I would call thinking outside the box.


Who says you can't re-use your 4' x 8' layout as part of a larger empire later on?

John Allen did. He incorporated his original layout right into his final version.


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## Roy Merritt (10 mo ago)

This has been a interesting thread to follow. But 31 posts going back and forth on the value of 4'x8' layouts in the *Beginners Q & A* forum. I'm not sure beginners will find this thread useful, discouraging more likely.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

When I look back at my experience with model trains...

I started with a Lionel set back in the early 70's. All I got was the train, a transformer and some track. I started playing with it on the floor in my room, but wasn't allowed to leave it set up.

I talked my dad into getting me a sheet of plywood and a couple saw horses. This was OK, because It was easier to convince my parents to leave it up in the basement for a while.

But O gauge on a 4x8 sheet? I needed more space. So what did we do? Got 3 more sheets of plywood and a few more saw horses. I would cobble those 4 sheets of plywood into a makeshift "O"... balancing everything on 8 sawhorses... I had plenty of space, but one ill-step, and the whole layout would come apart as one of the sheets of plywood would get jostled. And the plywood bowed due to poor support. At the end of the day, whatever "layout" I put up would be temporary. And there lies the rub. Why spend $ and hours if it's just temporary?... something to play with for a few days before I put it away until the next time I want to play with trains.... A permanent layout was not even a consideration.

This was mid-70's by now... I was probably 10 years old, and loved playing with the trains, but the whole "layout on benchwork" concept was WAY too much for a 10 year-old boy to even contemplate, let alone build. Hell, even in the 90s when our kids were young and my wife got me an N scale set... it was always going to be something you played with a couple times a year.

It wasn't until, in my 50s, I really started to get the urge to build a true layout.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Roy Merritt said:


> This has been a interesting thread to follow. But 31 posts going back and forth on the value of 4'x8' layouts in the *Beginners Q & A* forum. I'm not sure beginners will find this thread useful, discouraging more likely.



Roy Merritt;

Perhaps someone might be confused, or even discouraged, by the number of opinions in response to this thread, though I'm certainly not trying to discourage anybody. But they will at least be exposed to several viewpoints. I think that's a good thing. We give more than one opinion on many subjects here. There isn't one "best" locomotive, turnout, or control system, for example. The more information you have before investing a lot of time and money in anything the better, in my opinion.

Could it confuse someone? Sure, it might, but model railroading, even down to the first layout stage, is hardly an exact science, with one "right" answer for every, or indeed any, question.
I started this thread to point out some of the not-too-obvious difficulties one may run into by trying to shoehorn an HO-scale railroad onto a 4 x 8 .
For the record, I was not condemning 4 x 8 layouts, HO-scale, or even the combination of the two. Just saying, there are limitations inherent in that approach.
Also for the record, one of my own early layouts was HO-scale on a 4 x 8. It was also an Atlas track plan booklet design. (This is way before everything was available online, I'm old.)

For those of you in "The first layout is simply for the learning experience" camp. You're right, It is a learning experience. However, I don't feel that building an Atlas layout, with sectional track nailed down, poorly operating "Snap Switch" turnouts, and Atlas's rather cumbersome electrical controls, is, or should be the only way to get started, and have a learning experience.

It certainly is one way of starting out, its also even a convenient way to get started, since Atlas lists exactly which (of their advertised) track pieces, turnouts, and controls, the newbie/consumer needs to spend his limited budget on in order to build the Atlas designed layout. This is quite understandable, since the Atlas track plans are essentially advertising for Atlas products. Not evil, but hardly likely to point you in the direction of other, & possibly better, alternative products from other companies either. 

Also, in addition to learning basic skills, some of the things one learns from that method are negative, expensive, and frustrating. You soon learn that the Atlas "Snap Switches" are considerably less than reliable, & that no, you can't take them back for a refund of all the money you spent (wasted?) on them. You learn that not much HO track, beyond an oval or two, will fit on a 4 x 8, and that despite that, the 4 x 8 takes up a lot of the available space in an average room. You may also find out that watching trains run around and around gets boring, (or not, that depends on you.)

I have tried in this thread, and in my files, to get newbies thinking in shapes other than 4' x 8' rectangular slabs, and about better (flex) track, and better turnouts. No one has to do it "my way" (if there even is such a thing) nor does anyone have to pass on a 4' x 8' layout, if that's what they decide they really want. However, in order to make an informed decision, you first need information. That's all I'm trying to provide to newbies, hence the placement of this thread in the "Beginner's Q&A" section.

Traction Fan


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

In the 70s and 80s Atlas was about all there was as a how-to guide regardless of their sales techniques intertwined with those guides. I don't recall anyone else publishing any other model railroading guides that didn't include at least something that Atlas produced, whether or not it directly referenced the brand.

Newcomers to the hobby have options we couldn't even imagine in the 70s and early 80s. DCC was brand new in 1983 and was exorbantly expensive; something only the tech savy and well-off could afford to experiment with in those days. They talked about computer layout control back then and most modelers just shook their heads and moved on to the next article. Who could afford a 3K computer in 1983?


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## Steelplayer (2 mo ago)

Gramps said:


> To answer your question , "Why?; IMO most people coming into the hobby, or any hobby, do it without a lot of planning. They may see starter set around Christmas in stores like Hobby Lobby and think that looks like a nice hobby. They buy the set and with a little research see all kinds of track plans on a 4x8 board. It's after they are running their new layout they get bitten by the expansion bug and that's when they realize all the points made in the OP. The manufacturers know this which is why you see so many starter sets still being produced. If they were losing money on these entry level products they would stop but it leads to bringing new people into and expanding the hobby with the higher end products. How many of us here didn't begin with a starter set? It's all about marketing, follow the money.


I did not begin with a starter set. It all began when I received my fist HO scale layout when I was between 5-7 yrs. old. My Dad had a friend who was in the hobby build the layout. Well, I kept my "hand" in the hobby and when I began High School, I built a totally different layout that I really enjoyed. I added scenery (colored sawdust, lichen, trees, and of course buildings, etc). Well as time moved on, an Employer that worked for, had a warehouse type building so I stored my layout it it. One day I discovered that someone (or several people) broke in to the warehouse and I'm sure you can imagine where my train things went. 

Let's advance up to today. I'm 71 yrs. old and the "train bug" has bitten me...ONCE AGAIN. I am resurrecting the layout that I built back in the late '60's. I live by myself,and I thought that it would be cool to build the layout again. I can do it in my own time without an time restraints. Plus, I have learned a lot during the years so hopefully it will turn out more "realistic" than before. Plus, I have taken interest into more detailing. 

I can't wait to actually get the wiring finished so I can actually run the trains while building my railroad.


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