# Layout design ideas/help/etc.



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Now I am asking for some help, I have some ideas, but haven't even figured out how to put the basic room into SCRAM.... I get 2 nights off every 14 days since end of MarchCrying(it lets me pay for this stuff with no tome to do it lol)

I have some room measurements so maybe someone can make a quickie room shot and contribute their ideas while I try and figure out SCARM in my free moments.

Looking into the room from the door, it is 12'4" long and 10'6" wide.

The door/frame opening is 42" off the wall from the right and door itslf would need 29 inches to clear the opening on right wall(looking in from door). Same wall also has the light switch located 40.5" from the wall the door is located on. Constrain here is the bed located in the corner that is 84" long(will be changing because I will be getting my old bed which is 6" longer than standard)

Looking in from the door, to the left is 84" wall for the 126 total run on the door entrance side of the room.

Rear wall is 45" (looking from entrance to rear wall)from the corner to a large window which is 50"wide including trim and 31" from windo trim to the wall. Part of the wall on the 45" section needs 31" clearance from the corner to make the closet door functional(cannot be given up). Also there is a dresser that covers the lwer part of the window and part of the 45" space to the left of the window.

Left wall viewed from the door is total of 12'4" long and has a closet located 38" off the rear wall(includes trim).

Looking in, to the left will be two book cases(short half style) and the same along the left wall, but three half book cases will fit there. Height will need to be 44" to clear those as they are needed.

These are not perfect yet, but pretty close, I had a 6 yr old assistant and they have trashed my tape measure so it doesn't lock.... 25 footer is in the garage.



Closet door and entry door will have to be removeable bridges as it has to be functional. Left of entry door to closet door can be 18" pretty easy as bookcases should be 15" deep or so already and 18" from corners should give me 30" radius curves easily. On the straight sections is should offer us some storage/yard options as well.

Right wall will need to hug the wall as close and minimum space as possible as it will offer vertical clearance above the bed but I want to minimize intrusion there with exception of keeping a 30" radius curve thru the corner.

Rear wall(looking in) will be limited by headboard area, but I figure some extra could be spared there if need if someone has ideas that would fit in the window area above the dresser. This would be short as it will have to curve towards the bridge for closet door access.

I guess that is about enough to make my head explode. My time is limited severely so I am trying to do planning and designing now and get inout from folks smarter than I in design to make the most of what we have. We need one loop as we both want to see continuous running, but want a couple industries(flat building ahoy on this one) with some switching and was thinking some type of yard arrangement on the sections that could be larger to the left and down the long wall run.

Thanks for reading all that, I hope it is coherent. Just thought there might be a couple folks willing to throw some ideas/designs out. 

SCARM is being a little more than I expected to get going so far.

Also posted this on the MR forums, so please don't be offended by that. Trying to get as much useful and practical information as I can on the design front.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I've been using AnyRail for about 8 years now, and at my age, I'm not really inclined to download and try to learn another software tool (SCARM). For my purposes, the only thing SCARM offers that AnyRail doesn't is the 3D view, which I don't consider worth the time and effort.

So, if you're just looking to have someone do the legwork of drawing your room plan in SCARM for you, I'm not your guy.

If you want some layout help, and are not on any kind of a schedule (because, like you, my blocks of hobby time are few and far between), I'm willing to help, provided I can do it at my pace.

PM me with a real e-mail address if interested.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

And that offer stands for anyone else who wants help, too.


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

Ok. I decided to follow my own advice. I often advise others that "you cant succeed alone"....so I am at a dilemma here. This layout I am working on has been nothing of what I have wanted every step of the way. Lack of funds, lack of materials, lack of planning cause me to change ideas in mid stream....

I have what I think is a main freight line that I am somewhat happy with. Now I am ready to start getting the track laid out for the east loop of my layout.

Here is a (very) rough drawing of what I have to work with;










5 modules in 3 sections. Section A on the left, is the east loop. Section B is obviously mid town, and Section C is the industrial and downtown, also known as west loop or freight loop.

I have a decent freight track set, with a small two siding freight yard. But, as you can see I have no rail yard, no where to store locomotives or rolling stock. But, I also have no place to run my passenger train. So here is my problem, Do I make the east loop a decent sized rail yard and build a second level for a passenger train? Or do I set the east side as a nice passenger loop overlapping the freight loop a little?

If I had my choice, I think I would like to incorporate the east loop into the existing freight loop with a nice rail yard, maybe a turntable/roundhouse and build a second level for the passenger train, which would actually allow me to expand the passenger train, and maybe even do a mining scene on the other side of the room.

Here is what all I would like to see if I can get in this space;
turntable/roundhouse housing 6 locomotives
multiple track rail yard to store Multiple rolling stock lanes
housing area for a small yard locomotive to shuttle rolling stock for locomotives to pick up
I would like it to be a "pass thru" yard, meaning the trains enter and exit in like a loop fashion, or some other form
It is all with Bachmann EZ Track, oh, and all DC. 

I know its doable, I've seen a massive 5 train layout all running on 1 DC feed. I know it will be one train at a time per controller, and I am ok with that until I go to DCC which is not happening as of yet. That being said, I think it fair to mention, it is doable for someone with more knowledge than I have. I have been racking my brain trying to come up with a doable set up, and I just end up with a head ache. The main reason I considered doing the passenger train here and not the rail yard, is because I cant seem to come u[p with a track plan of a yard that I like......so I am coming to you guys.....any help? Ideas? Track plan ideas? A crumb.....anything.....


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Well Vegas, my advice might be different than you will get from some others here but I believe someone just starting out in this hobby should first build a small layout with maybe a couple of Loops of track.
I would suggest an inner loop for running your passenger stuff and and outer Main Line loop with a few sidings to do a little bit of switching. That would give you the ability to run two trains at a time if you wanted.
As far as yards I always suggest having a 3-track double ended yard. That way you can stage trains there or do some switching if you want.
EZ track is ok but I feel like there are some limitations which create problems , both in the flexibility of track Arrangement and electrically.
DC or DCC both are fine so it's really up to the individual it which they prefer to use. I personally will never have DCC control because I don't have the energy and resources to devote to it in whatever life time I have left.
On our 4 x 8 layout we generally have two freight trains running on the mainline out of a passing track. Plus two trains operating on the point-to-point Branch line. Keeps Us busy for hours. 
If I feel like switching I just work the entire layout with a peddler Freight using the passing track for a run around, so I can work the industrial sidings and the coal dump interchange.
Even though our layout is small some days the maintenance gets to be a little overwhelming. At this point in my life the thought of a larger layout is not appealing in any way. Other than the fact that I would love to have some really long straight runs to see the trains stretch out.


----------



## redman88 (Nov 25, 2015)

I built a 4x8 just so I can get an idea of what I enjoy most. And last night while running two locos in a loop I decided I don't like just watching trains. Now I need to fix my inner loop curved switch. So I can run a train and do some switching at the same time.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

redman88 said:


> I built a 4x8 just so I can get an idea of what I enjoy most. And last night while running two locos in a loop I decided I don't like just watching trains. Now I need to fix my inner loop curved switch. So I can run a train and do some switching at the same time.



You are so right. It doesn't take long for watching
trains that just go round and round to become BORING.

That's when you realize that if you had added several
turnouts, maybe a small yard, and several freight
shippers or receivers. Then you can actually be an
engineer. Use your loco to pickup cars from spurs,
built a train. Run it around a few times, then break
the train setting out cars at other industries.

I use the car card system for this. I created, of
card stock, a card for each car on the layout. It
has the Car type; box, hopper, tank, etc. It also
has the road name and car number plus color
or other identifying marks. Then I use Post It
notes that temporarily stick to the cards telling
the crew where to pick up the car and what to
do with it. The way I use the system, day one I
use the cards to select the cars and what to do
with them, usually a 2 or 3 hour session. The
next day I use a switcher to build a train of them.
Then the 3rd day, after running the train, Another
switcher proceeds to spot the cars as directed.
So there you have 3, or even 4 days of fun on
your layout, made even more enjoyable if you
have a family member or friend assist. 

Depending on how complex your spurs and yards
might be, switching can be a challenge; How do I
push that car in the spur when it's behind me? What
do I do with the car on the spur that is blocking my
car from it's spot? It often is like playing chess; you
must think 2 or 3 moves ahead of your play.

You don't even have to actually have your industry
buildings built to 'play'. Just put a temporary sign
that says, Warehouse, Junk Yard, Food Distributor,
stock yard or whatever by your tracks and enjoy.

Don


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

See, I'm different. I am not too interested in switching and operations. I am perfectly fine Building trains in a decent yard, pulling out of that yard and watching the trains go around my spread out town (I mean once it is actually a spread out town). I have very little of the freight loop landscaped, and I can already have a hell of a good time watching it run thru the different settings, freight yard, industrial center, downtown, suburbs, farm, that is what I enjoy.


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

See? What Redman88, DonR, and you Vegas are saying is what I'm getting at, try different things in a small way before committing to a plan you don't care for.
You are asking for help, VegasN, out of a little frustration it seems. But you just told us what you like to do: build trains, not switch them, and then run them. There's your plan. Build your railroad to do just that and add in other things later.
Nothing wrong with a layout that is just a section or piece of a railroad. Have fun!


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

time warp said:


> See? What Redman88, DonR, and you Vegas are saying is what I'm getting at, try different things in a small way before committing to a plan you don't care for.
> You are asking for help, VegasN, out of a little frustration it seems. But you just told us what you like to do: build trains, not switch them, and then run them. There's your plan. Build your railroad to do just that and add in other things later.
> Nothing wrong with a layout that is just a section or piece of a railroad. Have fun!


Frustration? Hmm? No, Not frustrated at all. I am not unhappy with my layout. It's not what I envisioned, but, in all fairness, what I envisioned in my non-educated state, was not doable, at least not physically in my space. An Astrodome size layout, in a garden shed space. My first "frustration" came when after a month of work, I find out you can NOT raise a track 2 1/2" in about 6" of space. Well, you can. But you cant expect the train to follow.
My intention with this request was to not "wing it" on the next section of layout. Get a track plan, plot out this section. But, it's no biggie. If no one has any ideas to bounce off me, or track planning experience they can share......I can, and usually do, figure something out. It may not be my envisioned Rod Stewart layout, but it will be mine and I will be proud of it, as I already am.
I just threw this in here because I couldn't come up with any ideas of my own that I liked, so, as the thread indicated, layout design help.....


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Sorry Vegas, didn't mean to hit a nerve. I guess I build layouts a little different.
Can you please tell me what the radius of your EZ track curves are? And on the main line that you have outlined in red on your diagram is it possible to make it double track so you can have the passenger line there?


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

time warp said:


> Sorry Vegas, didn't mean to hit a nerve. I guess I build layouts a little different.
> Can you please tell me what the radius of your EZ track curves are? And on the main line that you have outlined in red on your diagram is it possible to make it double track so you can have the passenger line there?


Sure, the radius (according to the package) is 11.25" I have calculated that I need at least 24" for a complete 180 turn. I have considered incorporating flex track in this side so I can get tighter turns, but, I have long passenger cars, and a couple of long, low well cars, so I think I'll keep the radii as is with the factory curve. Just don't want to deal with those issues.
As for everything I want, I have always had grander visions than space, knowledge, ability, and finances can allow. So my motto, in everything is "hope for the best, expect the worst, and settle for anything in between."

I am also a realist to a certain extent. I know in order to do everything I dream of with this layout, I would need considerably more space, considerably more knowledge, considerably more time, and exponentially more dollars.

As for a double main line, I had that with the initial layout when it was a just a wee spot in our bedroom. Now, as I have sewn up the west (freight) loop, I did not allow room for that as my intention was to have the freight and passenger running different places at different times, if that makes sense outside of my head. I thought it might be kinda cool to have the passenger train run thru a section of the existing tracks via viaducts and such, like the British trains thru neighborhoods. Just LOVE that look. So that is when I decided to make the east side a rail yard tied into the already there main line, and build a second level for the passenger train. Which I think I will do that. If I do a second level for the passenger train, I can actually make a longer run for them, and even add another passenger train all together, having two passenger trains, and possibly 4 or 5 freight trains. Of course, I will have to service or replace three of my locomotives before I can do that. 

And yes, I am ok with only running a few at a time. I have the transformer/power packs enough to run 4 DC trains at once. But will realistically only have enough track and lines to run two, maybe 3 at a time. I am cool with that. Having more than one train running around the layout at once IS my operations...haha.


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I do have a couple of ideas that I'll post sometime this evening


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Okay, VegasN, Here's a rough draft of the idea I have. I believe the proportions are generally correct. The dashed lines upper right tie into your existing line, and I'm assuming you run CCW so the yard exit would be at "A" , yard entrance at"B".
The train movement would be to descend to point "C", crossing beneath the main and yard tracks, then ascend into the long yard lead at "B".Both the main and yard would be level from about where the tracks curve around the proposed turntable area.
Now since the roundhouse lead would be at the same level as point "C" the engine service/roundhouse complex would be BELOW the yard and main, giving scenic interest.
I've included 2 engine service tracks adjacent to the roundhouse.
The yard would be worked from the lead at "A", keeping the operator(you) close to the lead track. I would suggest adjusting the yard lead to be as long as possible so as to not foul the main when making or breaking trains.


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

Ok, I see. How you guys come up with these track plans......
Seems I am able to figure out most things, except track planning. Not sure why that one aspect of this hobby is just so difficult for me.
I love the idea of crossing back over itself, creating a much more aesthetic ride. I would have to change the direction of travel though. If the train exits the yard at A, then it will be traveling the wrong direction for the two siding freight yard that is on the other side. The direction of travel on the existing main line is clockwise.
I like the way you utilized the longer space for holding tracks......good thinking. I'll post what I came up with, but not sure if I like the looks of it, or if I can even fit all this in....


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

Here is the Picasso I came up with......I like the multiple tracks, but I like where you put the turntable. I also like the idea of crossing over itself.....

Oh, and the direction of travel is clockwise......


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Some of that may be a problem.
Curves eat up space, so it would be tough to make that turn in and out on your yard. Plus you need long enough yard leads to work your trains.Yard ladder switches also consume a lot of space.
Also consider placement on your table work. Switching is more hands on generally so reaching your yard area is important.
What I drew out for you could easily run the other way, enter at "a". Just an idea though.
Trace over your curves and turnouts and make paper patterns, then mock up your plan on the table.you will be surprised how much space track will eat up.


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

Yeah, I was thinking about that. As far as the turn in and out of the space, that I already know can be done. I did have a passenger train running very briefly on this side, but I decided to use the track I had to get the freight loop done and running. I also had to scrap pretty much all the flex track and all 4 turnouts that were already on this side when I bought it. They were all dry rotted. So that is how I ended up with all this empty space on this side. 
As for the length of the yard tracks, I have almost 50" of usable space, I figure I don't plan on having a ridiculous number of cars (or so I keep telling myself ). I also know that an 8 or 9 track yard may not be doable in this space, I will be ok with even just say 4 maybe 5 20" - 25" holding tracks (1/2 my usable length). That would give me room to incorporate your idea on the turntable, which I really would like to have one of those.....and I like where you put the turntable, as opposed to the far corner like I was thinking. That also might give me more space for structures in the yard.


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

My drawing is only an idea. I was Studying your track outline earlier and was going to illustrate a couple of suggestions, but I left my portfolio case at my customers location so I have nothing to sketch with. Staying at a Ski resort condo in New York while working here so I have a loop of track assembled on the floor in front of the fireplace, running my Hornby stuff.

I'll post an idea or two tomorrow.


----------



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

time warp said:


> My drawing is only an idea. I was Studying your track outline earlier and was going to illustrate a couple of suggestions, but I left my portfolio case at my customers location so I have nothing to sketch with. Staying at a Ski resort condo in New York while working here so I have a loop of track assembled on the floor in front of the fireplace, running my Hornby stuff.
> 
> I'll post an idea or two tomorrow.


oooooo.......sounds like a tough job, but some body has to do it, right? Sounds like fun mixed with work. And must be absolutely beautiful there. Very cool some trains get to go with you.....that's awesome!:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Although I believe that paper sketching has it's place in the beginning, nothing matters most until you are actually in the track layout software and using official track libraries and elevations to dictate grades to see what is and is not going to work for your layout.

I just started this hobby 2 years ago and I jumped right into SCARM, so I did all my "sketching" in SCARM... never did paper once. I liked this approach because I knew by sticking to track libraries I can have an accurate representations of curve radius and what will and will not actually work when when making connections.

Granted, I ended up going through 18 major revisions before I finally settled on a design that I _knew_ was going to work, but my confidence in that design was 100% because I was sticking to all the parameters of track libraries and the data readings the software gives for radius and elevation grades.

But as time warp emphasized previously... different things work for different people.


----------



## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

3.8TransAM said:


> Now I am asking for some help, I have some ideas, but haven't even figured out how to put the basic room into SCRAM.... I get 2 nights off every 14 days since end of MarchCrying(it lets me pay for this stuff with no tome to do it lol)
> 
> I have some room measurements so maybe someone can make a quickie room shot and contribute their ideas while I try and figure out SCARM in my free moments.
> 
> ...


3.8TransAM, do you have a rough drawing of the room size/door situations and table space you have to work with to give us a "bird's eye" visual?


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

No matter how you slice it, the facts that limit any trackplan are curve radius and turnout arrangement VS. available space.
Takes a lot of room to swing even tight curves, and things like passing sidings and yard ladders consume a lot of real estate.
Many times I see those 2 things grossly underestimated.


----------



## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

time warp said:


> No matter how you slice it, the facts that limit any trackplan are curve radius and turnout arrangement VS. available space.
> Takes a lot of room to swing even tight curves, and things like passing sidings and yard ladders consume a lot of real estate.
> Many times I see those 2 things grossly underestimated.


I agree completely, which is exactly why I saw the benefit of doing all my sketching in SCARM from the get-go. I even went so far as to build my track with the curve radius tracks from the library first, then when I was happy with my track build I deleted all my curves and re-laid them with flex track just so I knew how many flex track pieces I had to buy on the parts list export.

Am I OCD???


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Maybe, but I'm old.:laugh:


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Overkast said:


> Although I believe that paper sketching has it's place in the beginning, nothing matters most until you are actually in the track layout software and using official track libraries and elevations to dictate grades to see what is and is not going to work for your layout.
> 
> I just started this hobby 2 years ago and I jumped right into SCARM, so I did all my "sketching" in SCARM... never did paper once. I liked this approach because I knew by sticking to track libraries I can have an accurate representations of curve radius and what will and will not actually work when when making connections.
> 
> ...


The problem with sketching is that I see too many people fudge. As Time Warp suggested, grossly underestimating the space required for turnback loops and yard ladders is a common problem. Just look at the cut down version of the Inyo and White Mountain that I did in the Collection of Track Plans thread, and see how that "yard" turned out, frankly because the person I did it for didn't want to understand the space constraint. CAD keeps you honest.

Layout Designer Byron Henderson is fond of preaching about "CAD too soon", but I go CAD (AnyRail, in my case) from day one. And, in fairness, Byron's objection is primarily that people want to start drawing in CAD before they have really thought about what they want to do.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

time warp said:


> Maybe, but I'm old.:laugh:


I prefer "well preserved" or "highly experienced". :laugh::laugh:


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> I prefer "well preserved" or "highly experienced". :laugh::laugh:


You, Sir, are an optimist!

Now if I could just get my monitor to plug into this new keyboard.......


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

VegasN said:


> Yeah, I was thinking about that. As far as the turn in and out of the space, that I already know can be done. I did have a passenger train running very briefly on this side, but I decided to use the track I had to get the freight loop done and running. I also had to scrap pretty much all the flex track and all 4 turnouts that were already on this side when I bought it. They were all dry rotted. So that is how I ended up with all this empty space on this side.
> As for the length of the yard tracks, I have almost 50" of usable space, I figure I don't plan on having a ridiculous number of cars (or so I keep telling myself ). I also know that an 8 or 9 track yard may not be doable in this space, I will be ok with even just say 4 maybe 5 20" - 25" holding tracks (1/2 my usable length). That would give me room to incorporate your idea on the turntable, which I really would like to have one of those.....and I like where you put the turntable, as opposed to the far corner like I was thinking. That also might give me more space for structures in the yard.


 This isn't much Vegas, But I changed the entrance curve route at the top to allow room for the turn and ease the transition into your existing line. Also the yard; I cant really figure the center to center on your ladder tracks were they arranged this way, but I'm thinking this set up may give you about 20" of usable yard track length. I also extended the engine facility off to the right and added a longer yard lead. Gotta have a long yard lead.


----------

