# Lionel Scout 246X direction problems



## Wayneac (Jan 22, 2011)

I just purchased a Lionel Scout 246X and I'm using it with a Lionel Type BW 80-Watt transfomer (2 part transformer). I cannot get the Scout to reverse direction (the direction switch on the bottom of the engine is in the on position) using the direction button on the transformer, or by moving the throttle lever off and then on. It will, however, change direction if I turn the power switch on the circuit breaker portion of the transformer off and then back on. I have 6 other lionel engines and the direction button on this transformer works fine with all of the other engines.

Has anyone else experienced this or does anyone have any idea why this might be occuring????

HELP!

Wayneac


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Wayne,

Are you 100% sure that you have the transformer wired as follows:

A terminal to track center rail.
U terminal to track outer rail.

And, just for kicks, toggle the reverse-switch button on the loco the other way to see what happens there.

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The 246 is a plastic frame motor with a two position reverse unit on the top. 1959 to 1961.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T,

I think the 246X is a recent loco ... a quasi re-issue of an old Scout, but this one with a white boiler front. I'm not sure about the e-unit type. and I'm not sure how clearly the e-unit engage/disengage switch is labeled. That's why I suggested toggling it the other way, just to see what happens. Admittedly ... really just grasping at straws here.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The 246x is a new engine listed with a set in the 2010 Lionel catalog. It has a DC can motor, electronic E-Unit, and a traction tire. The switch will be a simple slide switch, and they're not always labeled at all.


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## Wayneac (Jan 22, 2011)

*Wayneac here, with what I've tried with the Scout 246X*

I havent tried to switch the polarity on the xformer or the track yet, though I will. The Scout I have does have the cream-colored boiler front and is brand new.

I have tried changing the switch positions on both switches on the bottom of the engine (neither of which is labeled as to purpose or on/off position) to check for possible cross wiring -- no luck.

It is really strange that the current configuration works with all my other Lionels, but not with the new Scout.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Have you actually measured the track voltage when you press the direction button? Maybe it's not really falling to zero as it should.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Two switches on the bottom of the loco? One for e-unit, and one to turn a smoke unit on/off, maybe ???? It's crazy that Lionel doesn't label each switch's function / direction clearly ... just crazy.

I looked online briefly on the Lionel website for a manual for the 246X, but I couldn't find one. Do you have a hard-copy loco manual that came with the set?

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a modern loco with the same arrangement. Two unlabeled switches, smoke and E-unit. Classy.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This is a link for an 8632. The same as yours but older. Check it out.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

8632, that's the one I have.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man, John,

I quickly scanned the manual for that 8632 loco. Interestingly, the manual says that the electronic e-unit has a feature that will "force" a forward-direction setting if the loco has been sitting idle on the track for a while, regardless of where the e-unit was in it's forward/neutral/reverse cycle. I've never seen/read about something like that before.

Not that that necessarily applies to the question here about the 246X, though ...

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It does indeed, since the capacitor on the E-unit discharges, then the engine defaults to forward. This is common for the standard $15 Lionel electronic E-Unit, I've put a couple in other engines. Looking in my engine, it appears it's the exact same board as the one you can buy for $15.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

When the witch is over the twoconnections it will lock whatever it is in. To lock forward shift to reverse, then neutral, then lock.


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## Wayneac (Jan 22, 2011)

I believe Gunrunnerjohn is on to something in re the capacitor -- I let the engine sit on a paper towel towel (my wife's requirement, as opposed to the carpet) for a day and a half, and shazam! The engine changed direction upon restart without hesitation. Pure magic?
I think not...I believe there must be a capacitor involved. T-man may have the alternative solution, however, I didn't move the switch...it just healed itself.
Reminds me of the old tube-type radios and TVs where you'd let them sit for a day (or give 'em a good slap on the side of the cabinet) and they'd work again for another week.
Thanks to all who responded to the problem. Now on to my Lionel 221 smoke unit question....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the switch just locks it in forward if I'm not mistaken. I never bothered to install the switch on any of the ones I put the electronic E-Unit in, never saw a reason to run forward only.


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## vkuznetsov (Apr 9, 2013)

Can you please tell me how should 246x run after I resume track power?
My other Lionel engine resets its forward-neutral-reverse cycle and runs forward after been idle (no track power) at least several seconds.
But new 246x Scout can run in reverse direction (or stay neutral) even after it been off-track half an hour! Moreover, if I turn reverse unit switch in OFF position, engine can lock in reverse, in neutral or in forward (depending on where in F-N-R-N-... cycle engine been).
I just trying to figure out: is it intended behaviour or something wrong with reverse controller?

Thanks in advance,
Vasily.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, that's not what the manual says it should do.

From the User's Manual for this set at Lionel: The Scout Ready-To-Run Freight Set (2-4-2 Scout #246X)



> Additionally, this reverse unit has a “power-up reset” feature. If the locomotive sits without power for a short period of time, the reverse unit will automatically reset and start in the forward direction when the transformer is turned on or “powered up,” regardless of the reverse unit switch position. If the switch is in the OFF position, the locomotive will start in the forward


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## vkuznetsov (Apr 9, 2013)

OK, it seems like reverse unit doesn't understand that track power comes off.
As there were no any relays on PCB, the only suspected is capacitor somewere there that doesn't discharge properly.
Will be digging further...
Thanks, Gunrunnerjohn.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I searched the Lionel.com web site and I think I found the instruction manual for the set and the locomotive. http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/6281730127250Scout.pdf

There are two switches under the locomotive cab. The switch closest to the back of the engine controls the reverse. See page 13 for more info.

If the switch is set on and you are reversing with the reverse button it should work. If everything looks correct check and make sure the switch is working properly and a connection between the switch and the circuit board did not break.

I'm a step or two behind. Seems everyone else is typing faster than me.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Good information, thanks. I have two of these and got aggravated at the switches not being labeled. I never could remember what switch was for the e unit and what switch turned the smoke on and off. They finally took a rest in the box.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Make sure whatever transformer you're using truly removes all power. I've seen leakage that keeps the reverse board alive. Try actually disconnecting the track wiring or physically unplugging the transformer and then seeing if it reverses.

I'm having trouble thinking of a failure mode that would allow it to remember the last position, that implies memory that simply doesn't exist on that board.


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## vkuznetsov (Apr 9, 2013)

Yes, I'm sure power was comletely removed -- I just put engine off track 

I think it is not any kind of "memory", it is just capacitor. It should keeps charged several seconds while I press direction button (or briefly drop voltage manually), but should discharges after longer power outage to implement "power-up reset" feature mentioned above.
My next step will be to examine board for visible defects (particularly for unsoldered elements), but if I not find anything, I just accept such a strange behaviour as is...

Thanks everybody for all the help and advices!


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## NYC 5344 (Dec 26, 2012)

The problem here is that older transformers never go exactly to zero volts. But with the past AC engines with mechanical e-units, this was acceptable. I've found that even with some newer transformers they have this same problem. Now, with the modern electronic e-unit on dc can motors, it needs exactly zero volts, which means turning the circuit breaker in the transformer off/unplugging it. I've had this problem several times with this type of engine. My only simple solution that worked was to throw a lighted car on the tracks. The light bulb acts like a capacitor and eats up the residual voltage. I didn't look but I assume this engine has an LED headlight? This is part of the problem because LEDs eat up no current. In some modern electronic e-unit locomotives, they have incandescent headlights which act the same as one on a piece of rolling stock and thus the engine works with an older transformer. Hope my suggestion helps. If not, you would need to solder a capacitor to the circuit board, I can help figure out where it would need to be.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

NYC_5344, he's taking the locomotive off the tracks, so I'm pretty sure it's actually going to zero volts on the engine! 

It's certainly odd, try it overnight and see if it still remembers.


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## NYC 5344 (Dec 26, 2012)

Gunrunnerjohn, not necessarily. It may be a capacitor on the board that doesn't fully discharge when the engine is removed.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It depends on how long it's off the tracks. Since it's a standard Lionel product, and they clearly state that it doesn't behave that way, something slightly odd is going on.


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