# New Transformer {which one}?



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

I just purchased a Lionel ZW controller with 2 180 power bricks at a sale $240. One transformer was dead but luckily I had another one so I still had 2 for a total of 360 watts. 
All was good until about 2 weeks ago when the A channel {big lever on the right} decided to not go below 10.18 volts even after being calibrated numerous times. 
I switched the potentiometers on that side and still the same problem so it must be in the main board which I hear is about $100. After reading about this thing I heard they had problems but I liked the look of the old ZW and having 2 bell controls besides which the old zw's didn't have. 
I don't think I want to take a chance on a board for this thing and would just as soon get a new 2 handle style transformer and am considering a new Lionel ZWL or the MTH 4000.
Is there any pluses or minus's I should know about on these from your all's experience. 
At least a new transformer will be under warranty for a while but if they aren't any more reliable than this last one I might just get an old school ZW and forget the bell. I like the look of the ZWL since I'm trying to keep my layout looking old school but I would settle for the MTH 4ooo also which is less money too
Do you have any other recomndations concerning these or any other 2 handle style transformers. 
I'm to the point I'm almost afraid to buy anything digital anymore unless it has been out a while and has the bugs fixed.


----------



## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

If you like the original ZW's like I do , why not get 2 of them and you'll have plenty of wattage at your disposal.


----------



## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

A lot of operators I know and even my local hobby shop, yes, still have one of those, use the Z4000. The traditional PW ZW from Lionel is hard to beat for durability and reliability.

Have you contacted Lionel service for repair of your modern ZW? They may be able to help you even if you think it's long out of warranty.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The Z4000 is a very robust transformer, and it has a long track record of good performance. The Lionel ZW-L is an impressive beast, but it's pretty pricy for 620 watts.


----------



## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Perhaps there are forum members or businesses that can repair the board for less than the replacement cost.

Larry


----------



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The Z4000 is a very robust transformer, and it has a long track record of good performance. The Lionel ZW-L is an impressive beast, but it's pretty pricy for 620 watts.


 After reading some about the Z4000 I see it only has 2 variable voltage outputs and 2 fixed voltage ones so I could only have power to 2 tracks. I have seen the ZWL on a site for $674 but in all reality it won't do anything more for me than this ZWC does which I really liked until it screwed up. I wouldn't mind fixing it for a hundred or so if I could get the parts I need. I took the potentiometers out on the A-B channels and using an ohm meter they both showed close to the same resistance range. I labeled them A-B before I took them out and after testing them I reinstalled them in opposite positions from where they were originaly using a wiring schematic I found which really isn't that complicated but the problem is exactly the same as it was even just turning the potentiometers by hand eliminating a possible gear slippage problem.
A channel still won't drop below 10.15 volts but will go all the way to 18 as it should. B-C-D channels all go down to .74 or less. 
I'm not good at circuit board problems other than changing them which looks fairly simple on this ZWC but from what I see the board is the only thing I can figure that might be bad. It just seems strange that A channel stays the same even after switching the potentiometers which I was hoping was the problem. 
I would like to get a new board and 2 potentiometers and the replacement aluminum bracket that holds them but I see on Lionel's site the board is like you say around $100 and the potentiometers are about $27 for 2 which is fine but it shows just about every electronic part for these ZW controllers is unavailable. Is there any place else where I can get at least the board. If not I think a p'w ZW would suit me for a good one for around $200 but can a separate bell button be added like they have separate for transformers without one. I see whistle and horn buttons but are there also separate bell buttons or do you just wire them differently? 
The ZW types are the only transformers I see that have 4 variable outputs which I do like even though B-C channels are just basic but you can still reverse by just shutting the power and reaplying. I'd like to fix this ZWC if I could find the parts


----------



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The Z4000 is a very robust transformer, and it has a long track record of good performance. The Lionel ZW-L is an impressive beast, but it's pretty pricy for 620 watts.


 Honestly I really wouldn't even mind paying the almost $700 for a ZWL if I thought they were any more robust than the ZWC but what happens if it goes bad and you can't get parts for it either after it's out of warranty which looks like what the problem is now with the ZWC. And all this new stuff is made in China. Strange that you can get parts for an old ZW that's 60 years old but can't get parts for one about 15 years old but costs 3 times the money
Having to repair this expensive stuff is one thing but not even being able to get the parts at all is something else and then they want you to buy their newest thing out there that probably won't be supported either down the road a few years. Then you end up with basicly 2 black footballs taking up space and still need another one.
P.S. I just saw Wholesale trains lists the ZWL for $569,what do you all think?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The ZW-C is a pretty simple board, and I suspect the traic(s) on that channel have failed. It is possible to replace them.

If you want to shoot the dice on another ZW-C, I happen to have one I'm not using, and it's fully functional.


----------



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The ZW-C is a pretty simple board, and I suspect the traic(s) on that channel have failed. It is possible to replace them.
> 
> If you want to shoot the dice on another ZW-C, I happen to have one I'm not using, and it's fully functional.


 I just bit the bullet last night and ordered a new ZWL from Wholesale trains which they have for $569 and free shipping which is a lot less than what they want most other places for one that I have seen. I just hope I don't have any problems with it for a couple years which is about all I'm betting on really. But in the mean time I would still like to get this ZWC working again if I can at least find a board for it since I really do like the looks of these ZW style transformers, all of them. The ZWL has the 4 meters on top which is fine but in reality not that big a deal to me since the old ones didn't have but these new styles do have a lot of other command possibilities which I may eventually try since I do have a new Cab 1 L system I bought last year but never used that much because of so many other problems dealing with new engines. I like the nostalgia effect of them and they take me back which in reality is what this whole hobby is to me.
If this new ZWL doesn't last then my next step for sure will be the best pw ZW I can find and put fast acting circuit breakers on all 4 channels after finding out on here how to do it knowing I've tried all the new stuff Lionell has. That big L symbol means a lot to me even if it is Chinese now


----------



## hedgehog (Feb 21, 2014)

question for gunrunner john in another thread you said don't use more than 2 -180 bricks for a zwc why is that. thank in advance tony sorry for changing subject


----------



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The ZW-C is a pretty simple board, and I suspect the traic(s) on that channel have failed. It is possible to replace them.
> 
> If you want to shoot the dice on another ZW-C, I happen to have one I'm not using, and it's fully functional.


 If I can't find a board for the ZWC can you fix mine with the new Triacs whatever they are I'd gladly pay you for whatever it takes to try to get it working again and if it doesn't last then at least I'd feel I sent it to the best Doctor I've heard of. 
I also know in reality that it's pretty hard if not impossible to polish a turd which this thing might just happen to be.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

hedgehog said:


> question for gunrunner john in another thread you said don't use more than 2 -180 bricks for a zwc why is that. thank in advance tony sorry for changing subject


I've just never needed more power out of the unit than the two provide. I'm also guessing, based on how warm it got near capacity, that 720 watts out of the ZW-C might be "exciting". 



Rabbitman said:


> If I can't find a board for the ZWC can you fix mine with the new Triacs whatever they are I'd gladly pay you for whatever it takes to try to get it working again and if it doesn't last then at least I'd feel I sent it to the best Doctor I've heard of.
> I also know in reality that it's pretty hard if not impossible to polish a turd which this thing might just happen to be.


What are the symptoms of your problem with the ZW-C?


----------



## Dward (Jan 7, 2015)

I just got my ZW in the mail today and love it! 


ed


----------



## hedgehog (Feb 21, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5A-KFr5SS4 
some ZWC info


----------



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've just never needed more power out of the unit than the two provide. I'm also guessing, based on how warm it got near capacity, that 720 watts out of the ZW-C might be "exciting".
> 
> 
> 
> What are the symptoms of your problem with the ZW-C?


 The problem is that somehow the A channel will not drop below 10.15 volts and also the direction button has no function at all. I first checked the loop of track which the A channel controls which is just one big loop and no switches and it shows no shorts between the outer and center rail. I have 2 180 powerhouses on the controller and when you switch them on the controllers green light comes on normally and everything works fine on B=C and D channels but A will not come down below 10.15 volts. I can't really say without hooking it back up again if the bell and whistle control works on the A channel since it was 2 weeks ago when I started trying to figure this out and I was in the hospital for 10 days after it happened.
I did however bring it in the living room and took it apart on the right side to test the individual bell,whistle and direction switches and they seem to work using a continuity tester. 
I then tested the potentiometers individualy with the ohm meter and they seem to test equaly but just out of curiosity when I put it back together I reversed their positions from A to B and B to A just to see if it made any difference which it did not. 
I found a wiring schematic on the internet to make sure I didn't make any mistakes wiring it back up and it is pretty simple and all the wires are where they should be.
I first started out calibrating it like the instructions say by having the throttles closed and holding the program button down while powering it up and I get the 5 red light flashes like it says it should, and the other 3 channels go to .741 in that range but A won't go below 10.15 even turning the potentiometers by hand which I did before and after reversing their positions making sure it wasn't just a gear slippage problem.
I will hook it back up again tomorrow and repost to see if the bell and whistle control work or not since like I said I haven't had it on the track for about 2 weeks due to being sick.
Actually the day this started the controller did develop the gear slippage problem which I fixed by putting some small washers on the 2 screws that hold the plastic potentiometer bracket in place and making sure the gears let the pots go all the way closed and they do but even turning the pots manually A still won't drop below 10 volts but will go up to 18 like it should and this is after reversing the pots positions which doesn't seem to make any difference so I pretty much ruled out a potentiometer problem.
Like I said I will hook it back up again tomorrow and repost about the bell and whistle function on the A channel to help with the diagnosis.
I did order a new ZWL last night from Wholesale trains for $569 which I thought was a pretty good price from what I have seen elsewhere but I would still like to get this ZWC working again if it doesn't cost a fortune. I'd rather have a good spare ZW type transformer than just a black football.
.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It does sound like one of the triacs is shorted. That was a pretty good price on the ZW-L.


----------



## Rabbitman (Jan 24, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It does sound like one of the triacs is shorted. That was a pretty good price on the ZW-L.


 Well I did hook it back up again today just to make sure everything was acting like I had already posted and tested the direction, bell and whistle button on the A channel because I couldn't remember if those functions worked and none of it works either. It just starts at a little over 10 volts but will climb to 18 but that's it so that's about all I know how to describe it.
I'm anxious to see how this ZWL works when it gets here, I bet that thing must weigh a ton with 620 watts of transformer all in one unit because those 2 180 power bricks are pretty heavy by themselves and it looks a lot bigger from the pictures I've seen of it. 
I'd still like to fix this ZWC though.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The ZW-L is a beast, and it does have some "heft" to it.


----------



## phranzdan (Apr 4, 2012)

*transformer which one*

You can use a sound activation button with the ZW transformer to trigger sounds in the conventional mode. When properly wired, the whistle control on the ZW will activate the horn or whistle and the sound activation button will activate the bell or most other sounds. 
the part number for the button is 610-5906-001. One other point: The "electronic" transformers are phase angle fired I.E. the setting of the speed control knob or lever sets the conduction angle for a triac. This is similar to a speed control in a drill. The wave-shape becomes distorted and only remotely resembles a sine wave. I am not certain if this has any adverse affect on the motor in terms of heating but I would much rather the sine wave produced by the ZW.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There isn't any issue running with electronically controlled transformers as far a motors are concerned. The issue with the chopped wave sometimes surfaces with certain electronics packages, especially older models.


----------



## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

Concerning the ZW-C with 4 180's; I have a ZW-C with 4 130's and have no problems. 
Actual power consumed is a lot less than max. The most i run is 3 locos and accessories. Don


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

I have the post war ZW & KW and love those transformers, very durable and dependable over the years. Also have 3 MTH Z-1000's and like them very well however there is one engine I can't run with the Z-1000 and it is a Weaver engine I bought, works with the post war ZW & KW.

I have been reading posts on this forum and OGR about the newer ZW-C and ZW-L and the information scares me away from purchasing one. I hate to have to get any thing new repaired!!

I already have to get my new Samsung refrigerator repaired and it is driving my mad because the company won't come back out and repair it.

Lee Fritz


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2017)

Lee, I have the ZW-L and it is without a doubt the finest transformers I have ever owned. I am adding two more to power our new layout. 

I can only speak for me, but I have had four Z4000's and the ZW-L blows them away.

Not everything that is posted is factual  and some who have commented in the past don't even own one.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Lee, I have the ZW-L and it is without a doubt the finest transformers I have ever owned. I am adding two more to power our new layout.
> 
> I can only speak for me, but I have had four Z4000's and the ZW-L blows them away.
> 
> Not everything that is posted is factual  and some who have commented in the past don't even own one.


I am going by comments on this forum and OGR forum about the new transformers like the ZW-C, the ZW-L and Z-4000 as I don't own any one of them. I hope that the truth about those transformers is better then what I have read on some of the forum posts. Any way those transformers are out of my price range, over $400.00 for a power unit, not me.

I have 3 MTH Z-1000 transformers and they work very well, bought one Z-1000 for only $35.00 at a train show. Still using the post war transformers as one engine hates the newer transformer output and won't move with the Z-1000, it just sits there and hums loudly, it's a Weaver U33C.

Lee Fritz


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The MTH Z-4000 has one attribute that makes it more suitable for older stuff, especially QSI and MTH PS/1, it's a pure sine wave transformer. Well, "almost" pure sine wave, but close enough that it won't cause issues that most chopped waveform transformers cause earlier QSI and PS/1 boards.

I confess, I'd like to have a ZW-L, just because it's such an impressive looking beast.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The MTH Z-4000 has one attribute that makes it more suitable for older stuff, especially QSI and MTH PS/1, it's a pure sine wave transformer. Well, "almost" pure sine wave, but close enough that it won't cause issues that most chopped waveform transformers cause earlier QSI and PS/1 boards.
> 
> I confess, I'd like to have a ZW-L, just because it's such an impressive looking beast.


Thank you for the information gunrunnerjohn.
I could easily purchase any new transformer if it is at a local hobby shop because I prefer to see what I buy verse buying something online like a transformer. 
I saw the new ZW-L in northern Georgia(near Helen GA) but was on vacation so I wasn't able to bring it back because of space concerns in the car.

Might look at the MTH Z-4000, but it is a lot of money for just 2 train outputs. Would rather have several Z-1000's.

Lee Fritz


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, just as long as you realize that the Z1000 doesn't always play nice with PS/1 or QSI equipment, you're all set.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, just as long as you realize that the Z1000 doesn't always play nice with PS/1 or QSI equipment, you're all set.


That's interesting as I have one Weaver engine that has QSI sound board in it and the MTH Z-1000 don't work properly with it. The MTH Z-1000 works with the MTH PS-1 engine I have and with the Williams Crown Edition engines with QSI, so maybe it's just the older QSI circuit boards or Weaver's QSI circuit board?
Also the Z-1000 makes my American Flyer 295 steam engine(1950's vintage) have a buzzing noise when used with it. The 295 works great with the post war ZW.

Lee Fritz


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Some QSI & PS/1 stuff works, and some doesn't. I've probably had several hundred cycle through my place for repairs, and about 10% of them acted up when powered with the Z-1000 on the bench. I just drag over the Z-4000 to test those, but it's too big to keep on the bench.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

The transformer that won't work with MTH PS-2 engines is the Lionel CW-80. Tried a CW-80 at a friend's house with my MTH T-1 and it acted like it was totally stumped & didn't know what to do.
Used a different transformer, a post war Lionel and it was fine.

So my opinion is to use the brand of transformer with the brand of engine you are using, like Lionel transformers with Lionel engines and MTH engines with MTH transformers.
However I have heard that the early PS-1 engines from MTH can be fussy with what transformer they like, even MTH transformers.

Lee Fritz


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

At the club we have two Z-4000 Transformers. They work with all engines. Being a club, a lot of different train equipment gets run and we've never seen anything that wouldn't run on the Z-4000


----------



## mgraziani (Jan 10, 2017)

For someone like me, who only runs Legacy/TMCC, the choice between the two big transformers becomes very easy - The ZW-L (as well as the ZW-C) offer built-in powermasters for each of the four handles. Thus, I can remotely control conventional locos/loops with no additional equipment. 
If I were running a z4k, I'd have to add 4 powermassters to achieve the same capability. 

Also, I recently sold my ZW-C which I'd owned since 1999. It was a solid performer but somewhat flimsy in build quality. I had the handle bracket issue, which I fixed, as well as the Legacy board issue (also fixed). Overall, it did the job.
The ZW-L, which we've had for a few months, is a different beast in regard to build quality. It seems very robust and solid. Only time will tell however.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

*"For someone like me, who only runs Legacy/TMCC, the choice between the two big transformers becomes very easy - The ZW-L (as well as the ZW-C) offer built-in powermasters for each of the four handles"*

I totally agree with this. The ZW-L is the finest transformer in the hobby, bar none.


----------



## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I have a ZW, Z4000, & an MRC. I like the MTH Z4000 but you have to reset the handles everytime. I'm going to invest in a Zl.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

You will never go back once you have the ZW-L, Spence. Good move.


----------

