# First train project shelf/table



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Hello,

So I have come up with a project idea on a Christmas present for my 2 sons. One is 9 and the other 5. My youngest is autistic and is totally fascinated by trains. When we go to the Children's museum we have to drag him away from the train exhibit. Currently the only thing we have are plastic Thomas the train sets and he loves those.

So I came up with a idea last week about building a set in my basement. I finished the basement a few years ago and it's our family room area. I'm thinking of putting a shelf/ceiling train around the perimeter of the room, but also looking into the possibility of having it come down to a table height for a small scene. I really don't want to take up a lot of room as this is our family room and play area. The table area I was thinking of is probably about 9' long and maybe 2' deep. 

I know the grade of the train can't be very much so getting the train up and down to the ceiling will be a challenge but it is a relatively large room and I can make the ascent and decent runs pretty long or use a helix type elevation change.

Anyways overall the room is about 20' x 11' with a couple obstacles to go around, I made a simple layout picture. So there are about 60" of track around the perimeter. 

The table will be in the bottom left of the layout picture along the wall there sicking out a couple feet into the room. So I can use the adjacent walls to make the ascent and descent. The around the ceiling self will be about 6' 6" up and the table about 3' tall so a total elevation change of 3' 6". I will use the 11' wall plus the 9' of table to give me 20' and the same along the other side so 20' linear to 3' 6" of elevation. 

I'm doing the calculation as I type, lol. That's too much grade it's around 17% grade so I will have to to a combination of a helix and the grade along the wall to achieve my 3.5' of elevation change.

So my layout will look like this: Train starts off at station on table, runs into a ascending helix then starts up a long slope along the wall up to 6' 6" high. runs along the perimeter of the room until it starts descending back into another helix on the opposite end of the table back down to table height around the table (scenery, switching station, other interaction things and then back around again)

Seeing as I don't have a lot of table space to work with I'm thinking of doing this in N scale.

Below are pictures of the room and layout; do the experts think this is feasible or problematic?

You will have to excuse my crude MS paint skills


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

The two helices will be substantial room ornaments. In HO scale, they would be about 3.5 ft in diameter. N-scale will definitely shrink them, but I am not an N-scale person, so I don't know what the standard minimum radius for most N-scale rolling stock is.

However, N-scale will be hard to see on elevated track.

Maybe you should consider two separate layouts:

(1) An HO-scale layout that runs around the ceiling -- continuous running..
(2) An N-scale table layout. Your table size would give you enough room to design a decent switching layout.


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## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> The two helices will be substantial room ornaments. In HO scale, they would be about 3.5 ft in diameter. N-scale will definitely shrink them, but I am not an N-scale person, so I don't know what the standard minimum radius for most N-scale rolling stock is.
> 
> However, N-scale will be hard to see on elevated track.
> 
> ...


That's not a bad idea, I really didn't even think about having 2 separate layouts.

I could possibly even go with a L shape on the table layout coming out on the side wall 4-5' so it would be a L with one side 5' and the other 9' with a depth of around 2'


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

One interesting technical possibility of two
separate layouts, HO and N. If you set up
both as DCC you could run BOTH at the same
time with ONE DCC controller. It would give
you individual control of each locomotive. Just have
different 'addresses' for each locomotive.
The wiring is simple, just a buss from the
controller to each layout, track drops every
6 feet or so and that's it.

Don


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## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

DonR said:


> One interesting technical possibility of two
> separate layouts, HO and N. If you set up
> both as DCC you could run BOTH at the same
> time with ONE DCC controller. It would give
> ...


As far as the drops every 6 feet, Is that just 1 line from the power source split off for each drop or do you have to run a separate wire to every 6 feet?

And how do I get started, lol. Don't know if I mentioned but this will be my first train project. Should I just build the table surface and then go from there?


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

For the table railroad, start with a track plan. That will help finalize the shape of the table.

For the wall train, the walls determine the layout, so a track plan is not necessary. But you need to determine what scale the wall train will be before you start building. You might even prefer O scale to HO -- even better to see from below.

I recall seeing some wall layouts on this forum, but I did not mark them. Maybe someone can locate those threads for you.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

One buss line pair and split off for the feeders.

Magic


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

To amplify Magic's suggestion. 

For the 'ceiling shelf' layout you would
have a buss consisting of 2 wires that
would basically run under the shelf. Drops
from the track would connect to it. This
buss should be fed at or near it's center
point with a pair from the DCC controller.
(do not make a circle of the buss. It should
have 'dead' ends) 

The 'table top' layout would have a 2 wire
buss running under the table and again
track drops connect to it. This also would
be fed at or near it's center point, along with
the ceiling layout, by the one DCC controller. 

With this circuit your one DCC controller could
individually control DCC locos on both
layouts.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Electrotech said:


> As far as the drops every 6 feet, Is that just 1 line from the power source split off for each drop or do you have to run a separate wire to every 6 feet?
> 
> And how do I get started, lol. Don't know if I mentioned but this will be my first train project. Should I just build the table surface and then go from there?


If this is your first layout, then my advice is KISS -- Keep It Simple, Stupid! (NOT calling you stupid.. that's an expression, if you haven't heard it).

I recommend against just starting with a table. Start with a plan, and make the table to fit.

Finally, be wary of drinking the jumper Koolaid. One jumper every 6 feet is insufficient for some, overkill for others. You need to establish your own tolerance for risk.

Whatever you do though, for heaven's sake, use a BUS to connect your feeders. A BUSS might result in an unpleasant surprise.


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## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

I made a layout for the table and I think we are just going to start there, If the boys are really into it we can expand on the table and or build the shelf track around the room.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=1008465#post1008465


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

MtRR75 said:


> The two helices will be substantial room ornaments. In HO scale, they would be about 3.5 ft in diameter.


A 3 1/2 foot diameter circle is pretty tight in HO scale; in a helix, it would also be a brutally steep grade (the tighter the turn, the less linear run in each level). And tight curve + steep grade is a tough combo.

It's probably been done, but I don't think I'd try going much under 24" radius (making your overall size at least 4 1/4 feet) in a helix, as the tight curves and grade would seriously restrict the length of train that can use the helix, in terms of engine pulling power to number of cars, as well as increasing the odds of "string-line" derailments where cars are pulled "in" to the curve.

A helix is a big compromise between performance and size.


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## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Ok, I have a layout and I'm going to start off small with a double loop and switch overs. My next question involves the electronics. I plan to go DCC and I'm looking at starter sets. I've seen recommendations on the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra starter set and was wondering if this sufficient to run 4 trains simultaneously and also operate the electronic switches.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I see you're not going to follow CTVRRs advice with KISS, that's fine its you're layout. There's quite an investment on track and turnouts there, several hundred dollars worth, especially if you're using Kato track. just so as you know what your in for. And that's before you've bought your controller and locos/stock.

Don't understand the need for the two threads on the same thing.


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## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Cycleops said:


> I see you're not going to follow CTVRRs advice with KISS, that's fine its you're layout. There's quite an investment on track and turnouts there, several hundred dollars worth, especially if you're using Kato track. just so as you know what your in for. And that's before you've bought your controller and locos/stock.
> 
> Don't understand the need for the two threads on the same thing.


I like to have a larger plan in place. If you read the other thread I am going to keep it simple to start with then expand. I created 2 threads one in the layout forum because it involves the layout, and this one for my other beginner questions in the Beginner question forum. After looking at the prices of track I decided to switch over to atlas track instead of the Kato, like I said I'm new to this and had no idea.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Another possibility*



Electrotech said:


> Hello,
> 
> So I have come up with a project idea on a Christmas present for my 2 sons. One is 9 and the other 5. My youngest is autistic and is totally fascinated by trains. When we go to the Children's museum we have to drag him away from the train exhibit. Currently the only thing we have are plastic Thomas the train sets and he loves those.
> 
> ...


Electrtotech;

It sounds like your sons have a great dad, who has a great idea! I have an N scale railroad in my garage. It is a bookshelf design, that takes up practically no floor space. It also allows the railroad to act as a storage shelf. It can be finished as "furniture" if you wish. Most of the sections are 16" deep, 16" high and 4' long. There are wider sections at both ends so that trains can turn around and go back. Here are a few photos.
This is not the easiest type of railroad to build, but you don't have to be a master cabinet maker either! I think it might go well in your family room, at a level where it can be seen and appreciated, without taking up the whole room. In my case, the car can still be parked in the garage, and it is also used as a workshop. The railroad does not interfere with other uses.

Traction Fan


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