# Declined Again By OGR Forum



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I attempted to join the OGR Forum again and was declined, I guess because of my inability to prove where I lived or was from. All I know is - I completed the "application" they provided, and that they wanted me to complete. 

It appeared my application was DECLINED because I failed to provide proof of address, so in my follow up I asked for a reconsideration and provided them my proof of address. I was still declined and here was the response - 

Bryan,
This was referred to me because it appears from your statement below that you don't understand why we declined your request to become a member. Let me try to explain: This is a very large forum and in fact the largest of its kind in the world according to both Google and Yahoo who have conveyed that to us. 

Because of the size and differing demeanor and reasons why folks join our forum, we found it necessary to employ a security process which helps maintain security of the site and its membership from hackers, spammers, unrelated advertising, etc.

We realize that this may frustrate some folks especially those that don't understand why a hobby forum would need a higher level of security however we are dealing with tens of thousands of individuals, frankly a medium sized city, and those folks expect us to make sure their info is as secure as possible. When we can not confirm and address in an application, then the security software will ask that an applicant provide USPS proof that mail is being delivered to that person at the address they want to use in their application.

In addition, if you are approved, we will expect you to abide by our terms of service ( TOS ) found at the top of the forum pages particularly since you have made it clear that you will be interacting with the for sale/trade forum which has a set of rules found within the featured topics of that forum.

*Finally, very soon we will be requiring forum members to become either a Supporting Member of the forum or to purchase a digital subscription to help contribute to the costs of maintaining such a large forum which generally has over 12 million page views per month.*

Regards,
Alan
_*Alan Arnold*_
*CEO-Publisher*

******
So - I found this interesting. Mr. Arnold is stating in his comments that O Gauge / O Scale is a large, robust community NOT on the decline, in fact OGR Forum can hardly manage all the traffic on the forum. 

Hhhmm. That caught my attention since the magazine if I remember has gone to 6 times published per year from 12 (I may be incorrect) and it was my understanding print was in decline as a media. 

I used to be into the old car hobby and still frequent their free forums. The Antique Automobile Club of America - the AACA - dwarfs the O Scale Model Train Hobby (no offense) and their forum is no cost, they are losing members to age as well. This forum is no cost. I appreciate that forums cost money, but as part of our culture they are generally regarded as "free". We do view ads, and there are sponsors, as we see with Facebook. But in terms of becoming a digital subscriber? I would think many on the OGR Forums will balk at becoming essentially a subscriber to the magazine 'on line.' 

Maybe I am wrong. 

Anyway, I can still view content on their web forum, but I can not comment. Perhaps in the future NONE of us who are not paying OGR will be allowed even in the door, so to speak. 

I still go back to Mr. Arnold's comments that they have so many subscribers, forum members and activity they are so large and must limit who can have access. Wow, I was wrong to think O was in decline. York should be HUGE this year.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i am a member of OGR, as long as it's totally free i will stay there, once it changes from being free, i'm gone ...
not that i contribute a lot, i'm HO only, and that site doesn't have a lot of HO traffic


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I think they still list me as a member and I don't think they know where I live. My experience with Alan Arnold was I could never get a simple straight answer out of him as a forurm member or advertiser on the forum and magazine, but maybe that was just me. Or still is: after reading all five paragraphs of his reply to you I have no idea whhy you were declined, and frankly, it is not even clear the writer does either. 
Don't let it bother you. Not worth fretting about. I think they still list me as a member, but I have not visted in ages, and don't feel left out of anything.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I’m not surprised by their actions. I have had several run ins with Alan Arnold the most recent was a comment about him moving a posting I made. I asked on the general 3 rail forum if anyone thought MTH would issue a catalog at some point or just do limited and custom dealer runs.

It got moved to the MTH general forum because Alan claimed it had nothing to do with 3 rail trains. This is not the first time I’ve had a post moved. He basically buried that other post as well. I wanted to reach a larger audience hence I posted in a forum seen by more people.

He’s been after me to either become a supporting member or a digital subscriber. Frankly I was a subscribe to the magazine for a number of years but found that I just did not think the general content interested me so i dropped the subscription.

I mostly used the forum to buy and sell but now that I have downsized I no longer have any need.

As far as providing an address where USPS delivers mail I gave them an address where there is no mail delivery and they allowed me onto the forum. Also my IP address is hidden due to the Apple software upgrade so they can’s track me.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OP wrote:
_"It appeared my application was DECLINED because I failed to provide proof of address"_

Why would any "online forum" require "proof of address"?
I've never heard of that before.
Why would they want that? Seems to me most online forums endeavour to protect the privacy of forum members...

_(Hmmm... unless they wish to SELL your address to advertisers and therefore make some $$$ from having it...)_


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

J.Albert1949 said:


> OP wrote:
> _"It appeared my application was DECLINED because I failed to provide proof of address"_
> 
> Why would any "online forum" require "proof of address"?
> ...


He said it was for security reasons, not that they are nosy but with that information, which I provided, they have quite a database. 

I'm not fretting about it Lee, just disappointed. They have verified my email address, actual address, they have my phone number. I just find it curious that we think the hobby is in decline - which I am not sure is true but age catches up generally to this hobby group - but he states they can't keep up! So much business they need to decline people. 

Also as a side note - I told him in my response to the declination that I was not a subscriber but chose to buy OGR Magazine at Hobby Haven, my local brick and mortar store. 

As many of you know I am a big supporter of brick and mortar stores and purchase on average - at least $200 a month or more from the 2 stores in Iowa. I also purchased pre sales from Berwyns in suburban Chicago, and when I go I will buy more stuff while there. 

But my point with Mr. Arnold was that while I do not subscribe to his magazine, I purchase every one, and get it from a source he should respect. Oh well.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I can tell you one thing, talking about it here won't help your case any. Eddie G complained about OGR on another forum and got the boot over it. So I would bet you are not on their [email protected]#$ list already you soon will be, as I'm sure some OGR member lurking in the background will alert them to this thread. 

But with that said if OGR goes pay to play, I won't pay at the current price they are asking. Bet traffic on the other sites is about to go up.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I’ve been on that forum for about 7 years, though my activity there declined drastically when I found MTF. I’ve also subscribed to the magazine for at least ten years.

Not sure what I would do if they required me to become a supporting member or get a digital subscription. I might put out a few bucks if it wasn’t too much.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

They booted me over a year ago, never got a reason why, have not lost one minutes sleep over it.

Bill


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

With few print magazines devoted to O Scale, I will continue to purchase the print magazine. I know it's mostly 2 Rail, but I still like it. 

I knew I would not get accepted once I posted this here. I have not been a member obviously, but have browsed it for about 3 years.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Don’t know why anyone would want to join there if it’s so toxic….


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hey Bryan! What a bunch of OGRe hogwash and B.S.! Total Nonsense!!!

And for that matter.............

*Finally, very soon we will be requiring forum members to become either a Supporting Member of the forum or to purchase a digital subscription to help contribute to the costs of maintaining such a large forum which generally has over 12 million page views per month.*

I've been highly suspecting this for quite some time. Especially when they came up with that "supporting member" stuff during the short 2 or 3 years I was on the forum, before giving me the boot early this year.

I'm glad I didn't take them up on it. Another former member (shortly after signing up, if memory serves), had signed up and paid for a digital subscription, or at least the digital & video libraries, then got the ax. No refund offered or given.

As soon as they start REQUIRING members to pay up, don't think for a minute they're going to keep, or increase, their current membership.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Mixed Freight said:


> Hey Bryan! What a bunch of OGRe hogwash and B.S.! Total Nonsense!!!
> 
> And for that matter.............
> 
> *Finally, very soon we will be requiring forum members to become either a Supporting Member of the forum or to purchase a digital subscription to help contribute to the costs of maintaining such a large forum which generally has over 12 million page views per month.*


Paul, I missed this. Where specifically is it posted.

Pete


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Norton said:


> Paul, I missed this. Where specifically is it posted.
> 
> Pete


A letter to Bryan, in the very first post (scroll back up to top).


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Norton said:


> Paul, I missed this. Where specifically is it posted.
> 
> Pete


Here?
In the first post.

OGR? I don't know, was a member a long time long ago so they might have kicked me off. 
OGF seems to be pushing becoming a paid member too.
Today it is all about money.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

OK, I thought it was cut and pasted from something posted on OGR. I assume it still can be read even if you can’t post.

Pete


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## Desperado (Mar 14, 2021)

Don't lose any sleep over it. This forum is glad to have you here. There is no reason - none - for a hobby forum to REQUIRE that kind of information. Now, a cult on the other hand.....

This hobby runs on relationships and shared interests and the passion we all have for them. Anything like the items you said were "required" is a red flag. To me it means someone is getting "smart" that they may want to use either the people, or the money given, for some kind of marketing / sales method. 

Now for my disclaimers:
I have not, nor do I have any desire to, gone/ go onto OGR now or in the future. 
I have not, nor do I intend, to buy their magazine now or in the future.
I have only been on this forum for approximately 6-8 months. I can tell you that this is, again my opinion, the best forum for the hobby. (period) I have seen all manner of questions asked and answered by a broad group of individuals; with nothing but the best interests and encouragement. 

Ok - off my soapbox now...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Desperado said:


> Don't lose any sleep over it. This forum is glad to have you here. There is no reason - none - for a hobby forum to REQUIRE that kind of information. Now, a cult on the other hand.....
> 
> This hobby runs on relationships and shared interests and the passion we all have for them. Anything like the items you said were "required" is a red flag. To me it means someone is getting "smart" that they may want to use either the people, or the money given, for some kind of marketing / sales method.
> 
> ...


But we do have our moments here.
But not like over there.


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## Don F (Dec 5, 2015)

I too will drop out when it becomes pay to play.


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## Matt Kramer (Jun 17, 2017)

I got kicked off of OGR a while back for comments about them that I posted on this forum about a year or so ago. I made a post on here about them deleting a post about my father dropping dead on Christmas day. Such wonderful folks over there running the place.

By the way.... I didn't have any issues signing back up with them with a new user name and password right after that.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Pay to Play in the Good Ol' Boys clique? Sounds like a terrible forum to belong to.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Matt Kramer said:


> By the way.... I didn't have any issues signing back up with them with a new user name and password right after that.


You will now….


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

I so wish that we were all one happy family like we were many years ago. I participate in a few other hobby forums, and none of them have the pettiness and controversy that this hobby has across the forums. I can only think that's it's like this because the primary forum happens to be hosted by one of the magazines in the hobby, which has declining subscribership year after year. Healthy forums need independent, democratic moderation in order to thrive. And we're seeing the ramifications of that.

We all lose from fractured viewership with people spread out between multiple forums and Facebook groups.


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## Firewood (Nov 5, 2015)

I've received a couple of wordy replies from that source myself. I was disininvited the week after I bought a subscription and made a forum donation. Going by the reply you received there must be some enjoyment by OGR in sending out these verbose lectures. As for me, I've declined OGR 😏


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## ERIE610 (Jan 19, 2015)

After reading the preceding Post & Replies. It has become very clear to me that a form of "Cancel Culture" has descended to the Toy Train Forum aka OGR. Sad, sad, sad. Having it in Society and politics now a days is bad enough. But a Toy Train Forum? Give me a break. One + note. I never joined OGR so therefore they cannot possibly Cancel me.

BTW on another subject. Old Benz of BENZ TRAINZ is back on The YouTube. He was not getting many followers on Rumble and decided to reactivate his YT channel about a month or so ago. Sam Benz style Marx videos. 

DISCLAIMER
This is JMHO "Just My Humble Observation"

CC Definition from the ole inter web.
Cancel culture or call-out culture is a modern form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles – whether it be online, on social media, or in person. Those subject to this ostracism are said to have been "cancelled". The expression "cancel culture" has mostly negative connotations and is used in debates on free speech and censorship.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Not sure where he gets his numbers. 12 million views a month. I received a follow up that he does not accept my proof of address. This has to be one of the strangest exchanges.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I'll bet he would accept it for a magazine subscription.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Old_Hobo said:


> Don’t know why anyone would want to join there if it’s so toxic….


If you are interested in selling or buying they do have a rather large audience. Otherwise it’s not worth your time.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

I was kicked off the forum for daring to ask why my post was deleted. Alan explained they have too much going on, so I was banned but if I should subscribe to their digital rag, then I could rejoin the forum. So came over here. Especially like the Union Station where you can post almost anything in good taste without the moderators swooping in.. 
I had long ago stopped buying the OGR rag as it was the same old, same old. Locomotive and car reviews were always glowing never anything to be aware of. Christmas is always "How to create your 4 x 8 tree layouts" etc etc.
Haven't missed OGR one bit and certainly would not re-join if I have to subscribe. If OGR forum is so d*** large then maybe time to shut 'er down.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

The supporting membership is $12.00 per year. Not unreasonable or pricey in my view. Everyone's mileage differs.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

neilblumberg said:


> The supporting membership is $12.00 per year. Not unreasonable or pricey in my view. Everyone's mileage differs.


They should have a joint deal with a paper magazine and on line access, maybe for $30 or so. Forums for hobbies no matter what your poison are generally free. I also get Rock Island Reporter emag 4 times a year. A terrific production. He asks for donations so I donate $40 a year. 
There are many ways to do it but instant declination is not a good idea.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I was kicked off about two years Ago for reasons I don't get. I criticized them for their moderation on Covid 19. At the the time they didn't want to talk about it.
He did keep pressing me on a digital subscription which I did not want. before I knew it I was no longer welcome. 
They now run the forum like their own private island. It just don't make sense. It used to be a great forum but they chased off so many people its a shadow of its self. The forum itself has become very boring. Sorry to say I don't miss it. I do miss the magazine, I would have the digital copy if I was still there though. 

Dave


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

davidone said:


> I was kicked off about two years Ago for reasons I don't get. I criticized them for their moderation on Covid 19. At the the time they didn't want to talk about it.
> He did keep pressing me on a digital subscription which I did not want. before I knew it I was no longer welcome.
> They now run the forum like their own private island. It just don't make sense. It used to be a great forum but they chased off so many people its a shadow of its self. The forum itself has become very boring. Sorry to say I don't miss it. I do miss the magazine, I would have the digital copy if I was still there though.
> 
> Dave


They kicked me off several months ago. Within days I got email asking to subscribe. Good luck with that.


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## Booly15 (Aug 16, 2017)

I joined this forum because of the laid back, and yet information full way it seems to run. I do not involve myself in this hobby for drama, politics, back biting, or anyone getting to nosy about my life. I love my collection and can't wait to have it up and running, but frankly I wouldn't join OGR based on all that I have heard, just not worth aggravation, I'll leave that space for my derailments!


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm not schilling for the OGR forum (I post both here and there) but people who have been banned have probably violated the TOS on OGR:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/pages/tos

I've been on OGR for several years without issue or having any action taken against me by moderators. I just follow the terms of service. Basically that means:

I don't post anything political. If I see a thread that has a political post I keep my opinion to myself and move on. No need to reply.

If a posting gets deleted so be it. No need to question it.

Posting gets moved no biggie. I probably put it in the wrong spot.

OGR (or even this forum) is a private business. So they don't have to abide by first amendment rights and can boot you whenever they want.

If you're curious how first amendment protections apply to social media/online forums (they don't) here's a good read with some videos and sources:
The First Amendment, Censorship, and Private Companies: What Does “Free Speech” Really Mean? - Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

Again I'm not schilling for OGR, just trying to give everyone a background about what is going on, and hopefully more understanding of how censorship applies to social media/online forums.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

"_*MODERATION OF THIS FORUM *_OGR Publishing, Inc. reserves the right to delete any message, at any time, for any reason. OGR Publishing, Inc. reserves the right to reject any registration for this Forum for any reason. User accounts that have been inactive for a prolonged period of time may be deleted without notice. This Forum is for the purpose of discussing trains and model railroading. Questions or comments about the moderation of this forum will be deleted with or without comment. If you have a question about a deleted posting, please send us email. Do not post your question because that post will also be deleted. You may or may not receive a response to your Email. Breaking of this rule may result in either a termination of your account or a temporary disabling of your account..."

This I like too... never say anything bad about their advertisers products or your out on that count too:

"When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle. When you post about such a difference of opinion, the other side usually doesn't have the opportunity to defend himself on the Forum so such things can become very one-sided and unfair very quickly. In the interest of fairness, if you actually name the other party in such a post, creating the potential, given the vast reach of the Internet, for what might be a very unfair character assassination, we are going to delete the thread. In a similar light, posts whose purpose we judge to be primarily to bash another person, vendor, manufacturer, etc., will be deleted..."


Thou shalt not EVER question the Almighty Moderators or thou shall be struck down to the depths of internet oblivion never to return to the Good Ol' Gods club.

I know of someone who ran a country like this for about 12 years or so. He didn't last long either.


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## Refugee (Oct 2, 2019)

My account of many years was locked for "security violation" after posting that I wasn't going to renew. They already had all my information to charge and send my subscription. Think we know the _real_ reason why so many are being declined.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> Not sure where he gets his numbers. 12 million views a month. I received a follow up that he does not accept my proof of address. This has to be one of the strangest exchanges.


probably includes unregistered members views.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

they also keep addresses so if someone in the same household try to sign up you will be denied.
and they must be tracking IP addresses as I used a friends address and was denied.

I still believe this forum should buy advertisement space there.

or get a hacker to place an ad there.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

Don't know why anyone would want to join that ^&*() club. Ain't worth my time  plus its  !


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> I attempted to join the OGR Forum again and was declined, I guess because of my inability to prove where I lived or was from. All I know is - I completed the "application" they provided, and that they wanted me to complete.
> 
> It appeared my application was DECLINED because I failed to provide proof of address, so in my follow up I asked for a reconsideration and provided them my proof of address. I was still declined and here was the response -
> 
> ...


I believe the AACA charges $50 bucks a year.. I had a question I needed answered about my 40 Olds, and they wanted me to join to get a answer, at $50 bucks...No thanks..


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

bigdodgetrain said:


> they also keep addresses so if someone in the same household try to sign up you will be denied.
> and they must be tracking IP addresses as I used a friends address and was denied.
> ...


Maybe ... maybe not. Many commercial databases have names associated with address. You may have to sign up in his name to use his address. After that, the email contact address shouldn't matter.


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## pjdog1 (Jan 3, 2013)

I would not worry about being on the OGR forum. I was on that forum a few years ago. About the same time as the CV-19 started and things where getting bad in the shipping. I had a problem with the USPS shipping on EBay. At a later date things seemed to be getting back to normal. And I posted a item that showed how I was getting my EBay stuff on time or at least close to on time. The next day I saw a bunch of postings picking on me. From the content of my post to my literary skills. I responded to these post. Didn’t use any profanity or anything like that. Just said read it again I think you guys missed the point. I did block someone!

Next day I was band and had to contact someone to get reinstated!

I thought to myself what a bunch of little girls. That forum has a click and if your a newbie your out of luck. I just moved on. They stink!


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## N5CJONNY (Nov 5, 2015)

When I got kicked off of OGR I thought I was the only one or at least one of the very few who were banned from there. From seeing this thread I guess that is not the case. When I thought about being banned, it bothered me at first, but they actually did me a favor. First who needs a place like that and even more so If they plan to make you pay to play. I can have plenty of fun here.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

N5CJONNY said:


> When I got kicked off of OGR I thought I was the only one or at least one of the very few who were banned from there. From seeing this thread I guess that is not the case. When I thought about being banned, it bothered me at first, but they actually did me a favor. First who needs a place like that and even more so If they plan to make you pay to play. I can have plenty of fun here.


Same here, but now its nice to not see my inbox clogged with umpteen replies to a thread. Here its just one reply and I can come here and move down the thread to later replies IF I want to. . And yes pjdog1, OGR is very cliquish and catty like a bunch of school yard little girls (wife frowns when I say acts like little girls...).


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## pjdog1 (Jan 3, 2013)

I find that it’s a great forum to avoid!


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I think the horse is dead…..you can stop beating it now, it’s not getting up….


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## pjdog1 (Jan 3, 2013)

How can you tell. Is there a plus. Is it breathing? I’m not sure!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Time to close the door.


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