# 343 switcher power, or not-



## AFnewbie

Some of you know that I've been working on my 343 0-8-0 Switcher. Well, I finally got it running, but I have a concern. Even when cranked up to full power on my 18V transformer, it runs only about half as fast as my 336 4-8-4 Northerns. If I run the 336s near full, I'm afraid they'll derail on the curves. Is that speed difference expected because it's a smaller unit, or would you think the 343 needs further tuning?
Thanks, Paul M


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Honestly, I would think they should run about the same. Maybe something is causing friction to slow the motor. Have you checked for any binding or rubbing of linkage? Also be sure to lubricate the gears and pivot points, but do so sparingly. To much will only be a magnet for dust and dirt to accumulate. Check thsat the smoke chuffer piston is working without effort. It too can be lubricated to slide easily. Check its linkage for binding or bending. Try removing the drive linkage and run it without to see if there is a difference. If so, the drive wheels may need to be quartered. Perhaps the more experienced Flyer enthusiasts will chime in with further suggestions.


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## AFnewbie

NBF- After following your 342 saga, I knew to test without the linkages. It runs the same with or without. I also don't have the choo-choo connected; I'm missing the piston and rod. Everything seems to turn freely by hand. I did not replace the connecting cable to the tender, as you once suggested, but the old one seemed to be OK. Would a poor electrical connection to the motor cause this?


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## flyernut

Is the smoke unit hooked up?? You may want to try running the engine without the smoke unit working. There could be a short somewhere in the unit, pulling power from the motor..... After checking my manuals, your 343 is/was designed to run SLOWER than your 336, both in forward AND reverse.. On a 140" oval, your 336 should make 11 revolutions on that oval in 1 minute. Your 343, on that same oval, should run at a minimum of 9 revolutions per minute, and that's a lot slower! In reverse, the 336 should do 10 trips around the oval, while the 343 should do 8 1/2 trips around the oval.. These figures are all minimum values.. Keep in mind the size of your drivers in each of these locos. The switcher has smaller drivers, for torque and pulling, while the 336 has larger drivers for speed... Does that make sense,lol??


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## flyernut

What I do with all my newly acquired locos is,...Clean and remove all gunk from the wheels and chassis....re-face the armature...new brushes.... new springs... new wire job.... oil/lube all moving parts... That's a basic tune-up that should put some spark into the engine.. I have, on occasion, found that no matter what I do, I still have a slower or noisier engine..Also, make sure your armature is shimmed out to the correct location in the field.


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## AFnewbie

Thanks for the speed references. I'll have to do time timing runs. Meanwhile, I just fully disassembled, re-cleaned, re-lubed and re-soldered a weak connection. I also superglued a drive wheel to it's whitewall that was slipping. Bottom line- no improvement in speed. 

While I don't have the piston connected, and I've never attempted smoke, (except as a teenager, of course), the smoke unit is installed and wired. Are you suggesting to disconnect the smoke unit or to somehow test for a short?


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> Thanks for the speed references. I'll have to do time timing runs. Meanwhile, I just fully disassembled, re-cleaned, re-lubed and re-soldered a weak connection. I also superglued a drive wheel to it's whitewall that was slipping. Bottom line- no improvement in speed.
> 
> While I don't have the piston connected, and I've never attempted smoke, (except as a teenager, of course), the smoke unit is installed and wired. Are you suggesting to disconnect the smoke unit or to somehow test for a short?


Yes, I would either un-solder or cut one of the wires to the smoke unit. Just a quick test..Your solution for the slipping white insulator is the correct one. Just use a good adhesive..Did you change brushes, springs, and did the re face thing on the armature? Also make sure the solder lugs on the smoke unit are not touching the boiler shell. There should be a piece of insulating paper around the electrical connections on the smoke unit..As an after-thought, if they were shorting out on the shell, the engine probably would not even run.


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> .Also, make sure your armature is shimmed out to the correct location in the field.


Could you expand on this? Do you mean using washers for horizontal adjustment, or something else? The 336 has screws to ensure centering the armature within the field, but I don't see anything like that on the 343.


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> Could you expand on this? Do you mean using washers for horizontal adjustment, or something else? The 336 has screws to ensure centering the armature within the field, but I don't see anything like that on the 343.


There's a small, thin washer located on the armature. It's actually called a armature spacer.This spacer allows the armature to fully seat inside the field coil. The armature end should be even with the field coil.Use the small steel plates on the armature to be even with the steel plates on the field coil. If I can get a close-up picture of that I'll send it to you, or I'll just draw something for you. Hang on!!!


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## flyernut

Of course, my camera battery went dead.. Give me 10 minutes for a quick recharge.


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## flyernut

See if my scan works


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## flyernut

Very close to what it should be...


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> Did you change brushes, springs, and did the re face thing on the armature? Also make sure the solder lugs on the smoke unit are not touching the boiler shell. There should be a piece of insulating paper around the electrical connections on the smoke unit..As an after-thought, if they were shorting out on the shell, the engine probably would not even run.
> 
> There's a small, thin washer located on the armature. It's actually called a armature spacer.This spacer allows the armature to fully seat inside the field coil. The armature end should be even with the field coil.


I borrowed the brushes and springs from a 336 that was running quite well, and armature face is clean and shiny. There is something that almost looks like masking tape on the front of the smoke unit. I thought it might have been a prior 'fix'. Is that what you mean by insulating paper?

I'll go relook at armature alignment, but I did see about 1/16" horizontal play. Does that seem like too much? I'll post a couple photos also.


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> I borrowed the brushes and springs from a 336 that was running quite well, and armature face is clean and shiny. There is something that almost looks like masking tape on the front of the smoke unit. I thought it might have been a prior 'fix'. Is that what you mean by insulating paper?
> 
> I'll go relook at armature alignment, but I did see about 1/16" horizontal play. Does that seem like too much? I'll post a couple photos also.


The "tape" is probably just that; some type of insulating paper tape..Photos would be helpful before I make a decision. I would still re-face the armature, it's very easy.Dis-connect the smoke unit from the wiring and see what happens. If everything fails to make it go faster, I'd say you're within the factory limits.


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## AFnewbie

I didn't put a clock on it before disassembly for innards photos, but here are clips running at full speed and the play in the armature. Still shot of the smoke unit.


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## flyernut

How does the engine perform with cars??
I believe that end play is ok.
I didn't see the picture of the smoke unit..
What type of transformer are you using?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Newbie -- That armature play looks about right. There should be one spacer, P.N. PA10766 used on the gear end of the armature. This is pretty normal for nearly all AF Steamer Locos. The spacer is a small flatwasher about .10" thick, I believe. You could add a miniscule drop of oil to lubricate that area as well as lubricating other areas/parts to help reduce friction. The smoke unit is surrounded by an insulating paper kept in place with some masking tape. That is probably what you found. It prevents the contact points of the smoke unit from shorting on the boiler shell. Flyernut is asking if the smoke unit itself may be shorted somehow rather than shorting out on some metal elsewhere. I believe he wants you to disconnect the wires and see if it makes a difference in speed. That would eliminate the possibility of a shorted smoke unit. You can then simply re-solder the leads to it.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Newbie -- That armature play looks about right. There should be one spacer, P.N. PA10766 used on the gear end of the armature. This is pretty normal for nearly all AF Steamer Locos. The spacer is a small flatwasher about .10" thick, I believe. You could add a miniscule drop of oil to lubricate that area as well as lubricating other areas/parts to help reduce friction. The smoke unit is surrounded by an insulating paper kept in place with some masking tape. That is probably what you found. It prevents the contact points of the smoke unit from shorting on the boiler shell. Flyernut is asking if the smoke unit itself may be shorted somehow rather than shorting out on some metal elsewhere. I believe he wants you to disconnect the wires and see if it makes a difference in speed. That would eliminate the possibility of a shorted smoke unit. You can then simply re-solder the leads to it.


Yep, that was the point I was trying to make; eliminate the circuit to the smoke unit to eliminate any shorts INSIDE the smoke unit itself.


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> How does the engine perform with cars??
> I believe that end play is ok.
> I didn't see the picture of the smoke unit..
> What type of transformer are you using?


It runs the same with or without cars.
I did not yet disconnect the smoke unit since the terminals seem insulated (see photo in my post with the videos). 
The transformer is a 30B (dual 18V). I tested it, and each leg provides 4-18 volts at the rails. I just reassembled and I'm about to do some time trials. Results to follow.


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## AFnewbie

*Time trials*



flyernut said:


> On a 140" oval, your 336 should make 11 revolutions on that oval in 1 minute. Your 343, on that same oval, should run at a minimum of 9 revolutions per minute, and that's a lot slower! In reverse, the 336 should do 10 trips around the oval, while the 343 should do 8 1/2 trips around the oval.. These figures are all minimum values..


Results are in- Converting my track to 140" oval equivalent, at top speed the 343 gets 7.28 revs in forward and 7.26 in reverse. Interesting that that as I reduce the voltage, the speed doesn't drop at all until I'm at a very low voltage. Any thoughts on that? Do you still think I need to disconnect the smoke unit?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

The only thought I would have for that is that the full voltage is not reaching the motor when the throttle is at its full position. Why, is beyond me??? Anyone else?

Actually, I hope we resolve this one as it could be a keeper for current and future Flyer lovers, myself included.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I posted -- then had a second thought.....

Perhaps something is adding resistance preventing the full power from reaching the motor. Maybe the smoke unit after all??


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## AFnewbie

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> a second thought.....
> Perhaps something is adding resistance preventing the full power from reaching the motor. Maybe the smoke unit after all??


Good thought. I was hoping to avoid doing a smokeectomy, but I may have to get out the scalpel.  

For what it's worth, this is the motor where I soldered a wire to inner end of the field wiring. There was only 1/8" available, but I believe I adequately scraped off the enamel coating and got a decent solder. I don't want stress that connection any more than I have to, so I'll wait a little to see if any less-invasive options come in first.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

You wouldn't happen to have another field to exchange this one? At least doing so would eliminate that possibility.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I wonder if that loss of wiring is leading to a weaker field?????


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## AFnewbie

*the plot thickens*



Nuttin But Flyer said:


> You wouldn't happen to have another field to exchange this one? At least doing so would eliminate that possibility.
> I wonder if that loss of wiring is leading to a weaker field?????


No spare field, and there was no significant loss of wiring- an inch at most.

Now for the bad news- The locomotive is even slower, and I hope I haven't done significant harm.

I decided to bypass the smoke unit, probably doing it the hard way. I desoldered at the unit itself instead of the other ends of those wires. I was surprised by how much wire extended into the unit, and getting it back in may be a challenge. Oh well, it's done and the unit is fully removed. 

During bench testing afterward, it 'seemed' to be running a bit faster and more responsive at lower voltages, but I'm not positive. Then, while running at max, 18V, for less than a minute, the motor started to give off an odor and a little smoke. I shut down immediately and disassembled to inspect. I noticed that one wire connection to the field winding was exposed at least 1/2" (see photo). I don't know if it was touching the chassis, but it is now taped. BTW- before any testing, I taped the ends of the wires I removed from the smoke unit. I reassembled, still sans smoke unit, and it barely crawls on the track.  

Frustrated with the motor, I decided to open the smoke unit as carefully as I could. I'm glad I went slow because those are some t-i-n-y wires inside. They seem to be intact, but I think I need to read up before trying to reinsert the main wires. 

Where to from here for the motor?


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## flyernut

Those wires are way too long. You only need about 1/8 inch to connect to the solder lugs. You CAN NOT solder the "tiny" wire to the solder lugs as it nicchrome wire and will not accept solder. You have to inbed the wire into solder. I'll explain later. Now that you have the smoke unit open, you can not put it back together without a new smoke unit wick and wire. I wouldn't waste any time or effort on using the old stuff. There's a rebuild kit on ebay for $12.95 but that's expensive, but if you need it, what are you going to do? You'll get a detailed list of instructions for rebuilding the smoke unit in the kit. It's easy, and I've done around 15 of them.When you re-build the unit, make sure the windings on the wick do not touch one another. You'll burn it out right away. Also, I like to remove a few of the windings as you'll get more smoke, but have less life in the unit.The "tiny" wire is then thread through the holes in the upper gasket cover, wrap around the solder lug about 3 turns, put your wire in from the field, and then put solder into the solder lug hole, trapping that tiny wire. Cut off any excess.Again, instruction are provided. If you don't want to do it yourself, get the smoke unit kit and send it to me, and I'll rebuild it for the cost of postage.Another thing to watch out for is to make sure you have an insulator inside the smoke unit to keep it from shorting out against the smoke unit It all seems confusing but it's easy. The insulating "box" I'm talking about is the small paper-looking thing that the 2 ends of the wick go through in the smoke unit. Get it all apart and you'll see what I mean. I have some new insulators here if you need one. After you get everything put together, add a few drops of smoke fluid, connect 2 power leads to the solder lugs, turn on some power, and place your mouth over the end with the piston. Gently blow and you should see smoke! Ah heck, just get the parts and I'll do it,lol. It's an easy fix and will add to your proficiency.


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> No spare field, and there was no significant loss of wiring- an inch at most.
> 
> Now for the bad news- The locomotive is even slower, and I hope I haven't done significant harm.
> 
> I decided to bypass the smoke unit, probably doing it the hard way. I desoldered at the unit itself instead of the other ends of those wires. I was surprised by how much wire extended into the unit, and getting it back in may be a challenge. Oh well, it's done and the unit is fully removed.
> 
> During bench testing afterward, it 'seemed' to be running a bit faster and more responsive at lower voltages, but I'm not positive. Then, while running at max, 18V, for less than a minute, the motor started to give off an odor and a little smoke. I shut down immediately and disassembled to inspect. I noticed that one wire connection to the field winding was exposed at least 1/2" (see photo). I don't know if it was touching the chassis, but it is now taped. BTW- before any testing, I taped the ends of the wires I removed from the smoke unit. I reassembled, still sans smoke unit, and it barely crawls on the track.
> 
> Frustrated with the motor, I decided to open the smoke unit as carefully as I could. I'm glad I went slow because those are some t-i-n-y wires inside. They seem to be intact, but I think I need to read up before trying to reinsert the main wires.
> 
> Where to from here for the motor?


I have some wire cover to cover that exposed wire here. If you want/need some, let me know.


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## AFnewbie

fylernut- It sounds like you're a pro when it come to the smoke boxes. I'll be back to you on that after I solve my main problem- proper operation of the motor itself. Any thoughts on my current situation?


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> fylernut- It sounds like you're a pro when it come to the smoke boxes. I'll be back to you on that after I solve my main problem- proper operation of the motor itself. Any thoughts on my current situation?


The only thing I can suggest is maybe a new field coil and armature. I had to do that to one of my locos and it cured it.If I had the engine in my hands, this is what I would do to it, and I believe you have stated you've done all this already....Completely disassemble loco from shell....remove smoke unit....remove all linkages......degrease,dejunk,remove all old oils and grease from all moving parts, including the smoke unit gear.....re-oil, and add vaseline to grease pan,gears, and check for easy and free movement....re-face armature, and clean out the slits on armature face...new brushes and springs...light oil on armature shaft and end...clean brush tubes of any contamination...If all else fails, the only thing I can suggest is a new field coil and armature. If all this doesn't correct the problem, then you have an engine that's a little slow, but probably met the factory minimum specs when inspected. Believe me, that happens every day in manufacturing!! I was a part of it when I worked at Eastman Kodak. Every day we shipped film that just barely met specs, and sometimes, not at all....


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> The only thing I can suggest is maybe a new field coil and armature. I had to do that to one of my locos and it cured it.If I had the engine in my hands, this is what I would do to it, ....


Unfortunately, I did everything on your 'to do' list, but I'll dive back just to see if I missed anything. I looked on Port Lines for cost estimates for the armature and field coil, but they are not listed. Where else would you suggest? 

I may also enlist my electrical engineer son (and father of my train-loving grandson), for a professional bench check of the motor before buying expensive replacement parts.

One other question, since I have a powerful transformer, can I be harming any of my equipment by running or testing at full power?


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> Unfortunately, I did everything on your 'to do' list, but I'll dive back just to see if I missed anything. I looked on Port Lines for cost estimates for the armature and field coil, but they are not listed. Where else would you suggest?
> 
> I may also enlist my electrical engineer son (and father of my train-loving grandson), for a professional bench check of the motor before buying expensive replacement parts.
> 
> One other question, since I have a powerful transformer, can I be harming any of my equipment by running or testing at full power?


I think your transformer is ok. I use a VW, a twin to the ZW, with a little less power and everything is fine. I also use a Lionel RW rated at 110 watts, and my K335 loves it.Let me see how much a new coil would cost at my buddy's shop.I'll also check out an armature for you. Let me make a few calls


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## Nuttin But Flyer

newbie -- I have a bunch of Atlantics sitting in a box in my basement for parts use that all use the same field and armature. I'll be happy to trade yours for a set of those. I'll send a set to you, you try them and if they work, send yours to me in exchange. I've always wanted to rewind an armature and field -- even bought the wire to do it. Perhaps this will be the incentive for me to try it.


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## flyernut

I called my secret parts source with the AF part numbers you would need and he will be calling back some time today...Hang in there... Your field assembly # is XA9547, and the armature is XA11077, the same parts for a 302. There should be parts available, and I just might have both of those in my parts bin.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> newbie -- I have a bunch of Atlantics sitting in a box in my basement for parts use that all use the same field and armature. I'll be happy to trade yours for a set of those. I'll send a set to you, you try them and if they work, send yours to me in exchange. I've always wanted to rewind an armature and field -- even bought the wire to do it. Perhaps this will be the incentive for me to try it.


Nice offer.. I was wondering where you were.. We need help!


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Unlike yourself being the lucky guy, I still work and that's where I am right now as I write this. Thankfully, I have internet access and can follow along every so often.


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## AFnewbie

Thanks guys- great support from both of you. 
My son will be here on Saturday, and I've already put him on notice for support. I think that will help me decide on a course of action. Meanwhile, I'll keep you posted on any other progress (or regress).


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> Thanks guys- great support from both of you.
> My son will be here on Saturday, and I've already put him on notice for support. I think that will help me decide on a course of action. Meanwhile, I'll keep you posted on any other progress (or regress).


If you want a NOS, (new old stock) field assembly, it will cost you $10 bucks..If you want a NOS, (new old stock armature,) it will cost you $20 bucks.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

newbie - My offer still stands. However, you have to understand they are used -- cannabilized (spelling??) from old engines and untested.


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> If you want a NOS, (new old stock) field assembly, it will cost you $10 bucks..If you want a NOS, (new old stock armature,) it will cost you $20 bucks.


Good to know. I also like NBF's offer. It's nice to have these options


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> Good to know. I also like NBF's offer. It's nice to have these options


He only has 1 armature.. I just might buy that for the future. I think he has more field coils though.


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## AFnewbie

Thanks. I won't pull the trigger just yet.
EE son says- Some of the neighboring windings may be shorted. We can de-solder the wires temporarily from this coil and also from a known-good coil, and compare coil resistance measurements. Unless you don't want to de-solder good parts. I'll bring my multimeter and ammeter.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

According to Tom Barker's books, each should yield a cold DC resistance reading between 1 and 2 ohms. Mine have usually fallen right in the middle, luckily. Please post the results of yours after testing. It should be a sure sign of something gone awry. Are you aware how to test each?


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## AFnewbie

I don't; please guide me. And I'm not familiar with that book either.


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## AFnewbie

Nuttin- If the Barker book you're referring to is "Greenberg's American Flyer S gauge operating & repair manual", I do have some excerpts from that. 

Now for my resistance checks-
I checked the field by disconnecting the jack panel and probing across the terminals to which the field wires are connected: 1.3 ohms. 
I checked the armature by removing it and probing across 2 of the three sections at a time. 0.9 / 0.9 / 0.6. Is that close enough?


Flyer- I also looked at the smoke unit instructions in that manual-
It says resistance at the lugs should be 35-50 ohms. Mine reads 40.2. 
It also says to test from the screws to the smoke unit (I assume they mean the body of the unit) and they should be isolated. Well, I'm getting 0.5 ohms from every screw, top and bottom to the body. However, there's no reading from the lugs to the body and no reading from the lugs to the screws.  How do you interpret?


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> Nuttin- If the Barker book you're referring to is "Greenberg's American Flyer S gauge operating & repair manual", I do have some excerpts from that.
> 
> Now for my resistance checks-
> I checked the field by disconnecting the jack panel and probing across the terminals to which the field wires are connected: 1.3 ohms.
> I checked the armature by removing it and probing across 2 of the three sections at a time. 0.9 / 0.9 / 0.6. Is that close enough?
> 
> 
> Flyer- I also looked at the smoke unit instructions in that manual-
> It says resistance at the lugs should be 35-50 ohms. Mine reads 40.2.
> It also says to test from the screws to the smoke unit (I assume they mean the body of the unit) and they should be isolated. Well, I'm getting 0.5 ohms from every screw, top and bottom to the body. However, there's no reading from the lugs to the body and no reading from the lugs to the screws.  How do you interpret?


From the lugs to the body, it should be zero, as they are insulated from each other... From the lugs to the screws, it would be the same, as the screws are screwed into the body. Do you have the smoke unit completely stripped down?? I would pull all the wick out, also the nic-chrome wire, and retest. Make sure it's completely empty.Also make sure there aren't any little pieces of that wire sticking up through the upper gasket hole, shortening out against the body and causing screwy readings.


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> From the lugs to the body, it should be zero, as they are insulated from each other... From the lugs to the screws, it would be the same, as the screws are screwed into the body. Do you have the smoke unit completely stripped down?? I would pull all the wick out, also the nic-chrome wire, and retest. Make sure it's completely empty.


The lug testing makes sense, so it seems I have proper resistance and no shorts. When I peeked inside, it seemed pretty clean, as if it have very little usage. Given that, I'm somewhat reluctant to strip it down before testing for smoke. It seems the risk of making matters worse, yet again, are somewhat high. What am I missing?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

You've tested the armature and field correctly. The armature readings are weak. They should be about the same as the field. I'd try another armature if you have or can get a spare to borrow.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

The book I am referring to is one written by Tom Barker. I kinda thinnk of him as the grandfather of Flyer. He knows all and sees all. If you like I can scan some sections to send and help you with this? Let me know and provide a home email address to attach the scans.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Send you email address in a private message to me -- left click on my username and select private message -- works like email.


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## flyernut

If Don can't get you a armature to test, I have a good spare in my parts bin.


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## flyernut

AFnewbie said:


> The lug testing makes sense, so it seems I have proper resistance and no shorts. When I peeked inside, it seemed pretty clean, as if it have very little usage. Given that, I'm somewhat reluctant to strip it down before testing for smoke. It seems the risk of making matters worse, yet again, are somewhat high. What am I missing?


Well, give it a shot for smoke after you re-assemble the unit.Once that top plate has been moved, you're pretty much SOL about getting things back together.My offer still stands on the re-build for your smoke unit.


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> Well, give it a shot for smoke after you re-assemble the unit.Once that top plate has been moved, you're pretty much SOL about getting things back together.My offer still stands on the re-build for your smoke unit.


Sorry flyer, but I'm feeling dense. Just because the cover has been opened, why is that a concern? Photos show how much I opened it, and that after closing, the nichrochrome-wires are still connected to the lugs. Also, the resistance testing seems OK. However, when I initially removed the other wires, they seemed to have been buried deep into the unit. Would it be acceptable just to re-solder them to the lugs, perhaps even to those available holes in each lug?


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## flyernut

Don't feel dense buddy..I think you might be ok with the cover only up that much. My concern is when you close up the top cover, those n-c wires might short out against the unit body, but if you tested it and it was fine, go for it. What I normally do is to run the wire from the coil to the wire lug HOLE, and solder to that. Just make sure the n-c wire captured with solder in the hole. The n-c wire should wrap around the lug 2-3 times. You can also capture that n-c wire with solder when you wrap it around the lug. The point being made is the n-c wire will not in itself accept solder, it must be captured by the solder. As a side note, I tore apart a 302 to check for power going to the jack panel. I used alligator clips and a light. When the loco is going forward, holes 1 and 2 show power and turn on the light. Reverse power,(light) is holes #1 & 4.Hope it helps. . When I first tried the engine/tender, I couldn't get ANY POWER to the motor. After screwing around with it and swearing a bit, I found that one of the wires from the coil to the jack panel was not completely soldered!!. It's stranded wire, and what I found was 3 strands were not connected, giving me a poor connection. Have you checked that area as well? I must have missed this the first time around... I'm getting my threads mixed up here,lol..o


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> As a side note, I tore apart a 302 to check for power going to the jack panel. .... I'm getting my threads mixed up here,lol..o


You had me going with this side note until I checked into Strummer's reverse unit thread- Now it makes sense, I think. It seems we're all browsing multiple S threads.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

newbie -- I sent the scanned info to your home email address. Let me know if everything was received OK. Meanwhile, did you want me to find a used field and/or armature to send??


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## AFnewbie

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> newbie -- I sent the scanned info to your home email address. Let me know if everything was received OK. Meanwhile, did you want me to find a used field and/or armature to send??


Got it all, thanks. I'll do some reading and further testing before taking up your offer. If the resistance mismatch between the armature and field only causes minor slowness vs. doing damage, I'll probably stay with what I have. My initial concern is how hot the filed coil should normally get. I'll keep posting my progress.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I am not familar with the field heating up, but then again I never felt mine when they were running -- just never occurred to me to check. I guess they would with all that 'lectricity' flowing through


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## AFnewbie

*Good news / Bad news -*

The Good- I learned something today.
I learned that I need account for the resistance in my meter's test leads. _(Well, I sort of knew this, but never really applied it before)_
The Bad- I need to subtract 0.5 ohms from my previous readings, which means my adjusted readings are now: 
0.8 ohms for the field and 0.4 / 0.4 / 0.1 ohms for the armature. (vs target range of 1-2)
If these are now accurate readings, it shows at least one significant short in the armature, and I wonder that it runs at all. (_I do intend to retest with a better meter_).

I'm getting closer to taking up one of flyernut's or NBF's recent offers. If so, we can work out the logistics through PM.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Meanwhile, back at NBF's place.......

This weekend I'll dig out both an armature and field from the box of used Atlantics I have and check them with a meter to be sure they fall within range. Then I'll have them ready for if/when you place a 911 American Flyer emergency call.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Does anyone know if the #343 has Pull-Mor? It would be a different armature than what I might have if it does. I'd have to check the Atlantic collection to see if one of those has Pull-Mor. I'll try to have both types ready for sending. If I only have one type, I'll post here which I have. Hopefully, flyernut...or some other Good Samaritan will have the other type.


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## AFnewbie

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Does anyone know if the #343 has Pull-Mor? It would be a different armature than what I might have if it does. I'd have to check the Atlantic collection to see if one of those has Pull-Mor. I'll try to have both types ready for sending. If I only have one type, I'll post here which I have. Hopefully, flyernut...or some other Good Samaritan will have the other type.


Well, my offending armature looks like the Pul-Mor type. And the photos show some of the bare winding wire.

Does this look like an original factory part or one that's been already rewound?

Since I believe it's already shot, I "might" even try rewinding it myself. At this point, what more harm can I do?  So, the next question becomes- Is any 26 gauge enameled magnet wire ok, or is there a minimum temp rating or other specification?


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Does anyone know if the #343 has Pull-Mor? It would be a different armature than what I might have if it does. I'd have to check the Atlantic collection to see if one of those has Pull-Mor. I'll try to have both types ready for sending. If I only have one type, I'll post here which I have. Hopefully, flyernut...or some other Good Samaritan will have the other type.


A 343 does have pul-mor.


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## flyernut

Looks factory to me..Your 343 takes the same armature as a 301, and 302, (1953), bakelite version..


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## Nuttin But Flyer

There are photos of the different armatures in the material I sent from Tom's book. You should be able to ID the one you have. However, your photos here are excellent and I should be able to match this type if I have one in those Atlantics in my basement. I'll take a look tomorrow and let you know if I have one to send. Going in for a long winters nap right now -- been a long day. Later guys....


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## Strummer

Thus far, a most facinating and informative discussion...

Mark in Oregon


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## Nuttin But Flyer

After comparing your photos with what is shown in Tom's book, that is a Pull-Mor armature. There is a section in his book describing winding armatures -- I believe that was included with the material I sent to you. It is not much, only a sentence or two. There is also a chart showing the proper gauges of wire and lengths or each to use for armatures and fields. #26 gauge is correct for the armature -- 3 eleven foot lengths. He only mentions the gauge and also that it is available at Radio Shack. I found that Radio Shack offers combo packages of various gauges of wire, none of the included wire is long enough for more than one rewinding. I went online and found an electronics supplier of wire that sells each gauge individually and with plenty of it on each roll to do multiple windings of the same size. In the long run, it's cheaper too!!

So the question still remains....do you wish for me to locate and send a spare armature? That offer is still on the table. Only I'll have to check for a Pull-Mor type and let you know if I have one.


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## AFnewbie

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> So the question still remains....do you wish for me to locate and send a spare armature? That offer is still on the table. Only I'll have to check for a Pull-Mor type and let you know if I have one.


Thanks Don, but I don't want you to go rummaging while I'm still deciding. I read and reread the instructions in Barker's book, but they are not as detailed as I'd like. My concern is that the factory windings appears to have been done before the commutator was added. With the commutator in place, there's not much room to get the windings neat and tight. I even sent Mr. Barker an email asking for more detail; I'll let everyone know if he responds. I might also have a 'secret source' for the 26 gauge wire for the armature. (Gee- I'm sounding like flyernut  ) but 24 gauge for the field is not as easy to find. Please stand by- 
Meanwhile, anyone with armature rewinding guidance, please chime in.

Paul M.


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## flyernut

Tha armature used in your 343, XA11077, is also used in.....282..285..283..290..295..303...307...315...316...354...21085..Should be easy to get..


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## Nuttin But Flyer

flyernut's secret source is in an underground bunker near Area 51 -- used to be a missile silo I think, but he won't....or can't....say where.

http://www.missilebases.com/properties

Whenever you are ready, just let me know and I'll look at my stock for one. Meanwhile, I am curious about Tom's response...please post it if and when he responds.

I got my wire at MCM Electronics online....

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/browse/Special-Purpose-Wire/0000001540

Good Luck


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## AFnewbie

flyernut said:


> Tha armature used in your 343, XA11077, is also used in.....282..285..283..290..295..303...307...315...316...354...21085..Should be easy to get..


That's good info to have. If my DIY hangup fades, which it might, it's good to know that there are lots of options.


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## AFnewbie

AFnewbie said:


> ...I read and reread the instructions in Barker's book, but they are not as detailed as I'd like. My concern is that the factory windings appears to have been done before the commutator was added. With the commutator in place, there's not much room to get the windings neat and tight. I even sent Mr. Barker an email asking for more detail; I'll let everyone know if he responds. ...


Tom Barker's response- "I recommend using a screwdriver shank to press the windings and I would NOT remove the commutator. You will need to find a short device to get into the small space and press the windings. Have you checked to see if the windings on the armature and the field are shorted to the chassis? The picture of the field indicates a bare wire (the red one) on the field core. That could cause a hot operation and slow movement. Check this out first before rewinding and let me know if this has helped." 

I didn't really expect an easy winding solution. hwell: As for the bare red wire, I believe it was once touching the field, but isn't now. While waiting for my winding wire, I'll 'really' insulate that wire and give it another test run.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> flyernut's secret source is in an underground bunker near Area 51 -- used to be a missile silo I think, but he won't....or can't....say where.
> 
> http://www.missilebases.com/properties
> 
> Whenever you are ready, just let me know and I'll look at my stock for one. Meanwhile, I am curious about Tom's response...please post it if and when he responds.
> 
> I got my wire at MCM Electronics online....
> 
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/browse/Special-Purpose-Wire/0000001540
> 
> Good Luck


I knew I should not have taken you up to that keg party this past summer!! Now you're gonna tell everyone where it is!!!!


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## AFnewbie

AFnewbie said:


> Tom Barker's response- "...The picture of the field indicates a bare wire (the red one) on the field core. That could cause a hot operation and slow movement. Check this out first before rewinding and let me know if this has helped."


My re-test- vs the listed specifications:
- motor to be tested with remote control unit at 12 volts and not draw more than 1.55 amps.
- not to draw more than 2.1 amps when pulling 4 box cars.

I first epoxy-ed the solder connection to the inner field coil to ensure that it doesn't touch the field. After verifying that 12 volts were being fed to the track, I then measured current at the red and green wires connected to the field coil. Readings were erratic. (Oops-This was the WRONG way to test, as Tom Barker confirmed). I then properly measured the current on the wires between the transformer and the track. With readings of 3.5 amps under no load, I'm clearly out of spec. 

Combining these results with the earlier low resistance readings on the armature, I'm mentally preparing for coil surgery. I intend to post photographs at various stages, but I won't start the unwind until I have my replacement wire in hand, soon I think. I'll start a new thread focused just on the rewind project. 

Thanks for all your support thus far. If anyone has first-hand experience with armature rewinding, good or bad, I'd love to hear for you.

Paul M


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## Nuttin But Flyer

newbie -- I sent a message to your home email which explains my view. Let me know if you need anything further. I will stay in touch with you.


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## flyernut

To whom it may concern, there's a COMPLETE motor assembly, including brushes, springs, coil, jack plug, and armature on ebay right now. I think it was just listed...


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