# multistory building? help?



## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

Hey guys im building my own layout from scratch, but i want to go multiple levels, and im not sure if that is so easy  help me please, and if anyone has done this before, can you tell me what is important and what i need to look out for, i want to keep my stock locomotive and not upgrade to a hillclimber so yeah. ive hand drawn what i want to do, so just look at the pics plz


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Have you figured the grade for your hills?


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

yes i was thinking about 8 degrees as thats the most the trucks will take on the engineup to a height of 75mm (3 inches)


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## golfermd (Apr 19, 2013)

Fleischmannman said:


> yes i was thinking about 8 degrees as thats the most the trucks will take on the engineup to a height of 75mm (3 inches)



Grades are usually measured in percentages. Without a set of trig functions I don't know the muliplying factor to get the rise versus length. The usual max is 2%. You can go a bit above that. So, over track length of 100" the rise would be 2".

Dan


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I had a 4% going up a hill on my last layout. Unfortunately this proved to be an issue pulling large trains. Only engine I had that could do it was an Athearn dual motor DD40. I have 4 of those that have had the motors upgraded and flywheels added. They are true pulling monsters. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that a curve on an incline effectively increases the amount of effort needed to pull the train up the incline. When going around a curve the wheels on one side of the axle loose traction. This decreases the tractive effort that the engine can create.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

golfermd said:


> Grades are usually measured in percentages. Without a set of trig functions I don't know the muliplying factor to get the rise versus length. The usual max is 2%. You can go a bit above that. So, over track length of 100" the rise would be 2".
> 
> Dan


It's actually very simple. 1 inch of rise in 100 inches of travel is a 1% grade. No trig required for this problem.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's actually very simple. 1 inch of rise in 100 inches of travel is a 1% grade. No trig required for this problem.


Is that correct for all the scales? 
Would a Z scale grade be the same as an G scale grade?
Is that true for real life grade calculations also?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's true for all scales and in real life too. The percentage of grade is simply that, the percentage of grade. 

Here's a WIKI page on grades, look down for the locomotive section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(slope)


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

i know about the corners, thats standard physics, but can anyone give me any tips on how to build the grades?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can tell you than an 8 degree slope is WAY too much for virtually any model train, or any real train for that matter! The usual maximum grade is about a 4% grade for small consists, and I'd plan on sticking to 2-2.5% for any sizable configuration.


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## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

Fleischmannman said:


> i know about the corners, thats standard physics, but can anyone give me any tips on how to build the grades?


Look through and read the many threads within this forum. There are many about how to build layouts with Grades and there are many methods to do so.

As for the Math:
An 8° incline is 100 * tan (8°) = 14% Grade which is way TOO STEEP for almost any train, model or real. 
The math for % Grade to incline angle is:atan(%Grade/100)
So a 2% Grade is an angle of 0.11°


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

Use the search function, look for "cookie cutter layout" or something similar. I remember theres a good instructional regarding building easy grades. That was using an mdf board, I reckon.


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

so i would probably build over the initial 14-16 m overall length and 3.5m width that i wanted. oh well more tracks means more trains right? any ideas on transformer upgrades, my current one is a tiny 12v 650mA
is it save to get a say, 2.5 amp one? if so, what should i look out for
if im not on, pm me


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

An 8 degree slope is about 14% (14.05" rise for 100" run) 

You do need a little trig to figure that out (law of sines.)

For HO Scale - standard 1x4 lumber (3/4" x 3.5") perfectly sets a minimum clearance between track levels if all you want is an over/underpass.

I typically set both ends of the climb, then put in risers (1x4 boards, set in vertically) along the grade to make it even. Lots of pictures in my build thread (plenty of extra levels as well.)


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Golden rule.......2% max.......why?......it is not prototypical & model train engines start to have a traction problem when the grade gets above 2% (I am sure that there might well be a layout that has grades great than 2% and no problems are experienced, or so reported). If there was some way to greatly increase the total weight of the model engine, then the issue might be moot.


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

Carl said:


> Golden rule.......2% max.......why?......it is not prototypical & model train engines start to have a traction problem when the grade gets above 2% (I am sure that there might well be a layout that has grades great than 2% and no problems are experienced, or so reported). If there was some way to greatly increase the total weight of the model engine, then the issue might be moot.


i put my engine on the scale and it came back with 750g.... isnt that a lot?


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Not sure if 750 grams, pulling some cars would go up a 8% grade. Would be interesting if you could make a 8% grade and see what happens.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have 8 pound dual-motored O-scale locomotives that I doubt would pull more than a car or two up an 8% grade! One issue you'll find right away is it will start shedding traction tires.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

Keep it under 5%.
Depends on the size of the layout too. a 4x8 will be fine with a 5% to achieve your goals.

if its a big around the room layout. stick to ~2% for the look and functionality


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## Hutch (Dec 19, 2012)

If you learn to use SCARM to plan your layout, all the math is done for you automatically. The levels are color coded as you lift one end of the track. Green for 2%, yellow as it starts to get too steep and red when it's way too much. It's that so simple. 
It's free.


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

can you pm me the link, or post it, not sure where to find it


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## Hutch (Dec 19, 2012)

http://www.scarm.info/index_en.html#download
There you go.


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

cheers mate appreciate it


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

hey broox, cheers mate, but this setup is outdoor. im building it in my tiny backyard


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

this is the set up, i thought i could make the area in the oval like the command centre lol


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Before you get too far in the planning there may be some other things to think over besides whether an engine can make the hill. I once built a twice around the room layout figuring only the engine traction. I forgot lots of other problems. 

Things that also need attention are operations on an incline. To get the height needed almost all my mainline had to be running on grades. I had lots of run around and passing tracks but they were almost useless do to the grade. Almost impossible to disconnect couplers when the train is pulling or pushing n them. Once disconnected, the train could not be left on the main without the engine to keep it from running away. Sidings also need to be level for cars to set without engines. Since the main is running a grade, short level sidings were really a bear to build. The sudden change from grade to level often made problems for the couplers to keep contact if the siding was not long enough to gradually level the slope. When the engine is on a grade and the car is on level the coupler height is thrown off if the change is too sudden. Totally spoils operations if you have to pin or block cars from moving! 
Just be aware that there are more questions than just the engine traction. It's the little problems that can kill your fun!


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## Fleischmannman (Jun 8, 2013)

Pfunmo said:


> Before you get too far in the planning there may be some other things to think over besides whether an engine can make the hill. I once built a twice around the room layout figuring only the engine traction. I forgot lots of other problems.
> 
> Things that also need attention are operations on an incline. To get the height needed almost all my mainline had to be running on grades. I had lots of run around and passing tracks but they were almost useless do to the grade. Almost impossible to disconnect couplers when the train is pulling or pushing n them. Once disconnected, the train could not be left on the main without the engine to keep it from running away. Sidings also need to be level for cars to set without engines. Since the main is running a grade, short level sidings were really a bear to build. The sudden change from grade to level often made problems for the couplers to keep contact if the siding was not long enough to gradually level the slope. When the engine is on a grade and the car is on level the coupler height is thrown off if the change is too sudden. Totally spoils operations if you have to pin or block cars from moving!
> Just be aware that there are more questions than just the engine traction. It's the little problems that can kill your fun!


cheers buddy, but ive decided to scratch the height for now... might add it in the future though


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

ooh, an outdoor build. cool :thumbsup:


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