# New Lionel Passenger Cars: 18" vs. 21"



## Railrunnin (Dec 24, 2015)

I was perusing the Lionel catalog and was wondering if anyone else wishes some of the 21 inch passenger cars were 18". I am guessing there is a greater ability to run 18 inch cars across the hobbyist market. I would love to have the following out of the catalog:

UP Business Train
PC GG1 Train
Amtrak GG1 Train

However I can't use 21 inch cars 

Those of you who can run those large cars are fortunate to have that kind of real estate. 

Am I alone on this....would you have bought 18" variations of those offerings?

Paul


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

You are not alone. I have 21" cars but only run them on the club layout. I was bummed when Lionel canceled the Texas Special Aluminum cars in favor of the 21" plastic cars. Nothing against plastic per se if they are accurate but would have preferred the 18" cars.
Lionel and I are divergent paths. I don't see me buying much of new stuff in the future.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have personally limited myself to 18" cars as well. While I love the appearance of the 21" cars, they really don't look that good on anything but a very expansive layout. Even on O72 curves, they have a lot of overhang.


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I was the same way. I decided on my current layout that I wouldn't run anything but 18" cars. Then I tried the K-Line 21" California Zephyr cars and am now planning to eventually sell all my 18" cars and trade up to 21". They look a little strange on some of my 072 curves, but then so do the 18" cars if we are being honest. It's all in what you like. The 21" cars are just proportionally correct and look great on the straightways. We should try to hide our sharp 072 curves in tunnels or out of sight to help preserve the illusion.

Art


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I myself prefer the 21" passenger cars. Overhang on curves doesn't bother me as the cars are not on the curve for very long. I like the 21" cars for how they look on straightaways. Any overhang on curves doesn't bother me as much as those 'stick-on' windows Lionel used. And even the windows didn't cause me not to buy them. 

But, I am surprised Lionel doesn't offer identical 18" passenger cars since they are a popular size. Especially if they offer them as Built To Order.


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## Railrunnin (Dec 24, 2015)

Chugman, would love to be first on your list if your selling the 18 inch Santa Fe or other cars

Paul


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2016)

It is only a matter of time before Lionel brings out the 18" cars. They were extremely popular from 2004. I was frankly surprised when they offered only 21" cars in the new catalog (0-27 not included in my comment). There are many who prefer the 18" size.

I personally like the 21" passenger cars, especially the K-Lines. I have built our inventory around that criteria. 

The 21" Blue Bird set is do next week, so this will be a trial balloon for me.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Ahhh, Brian, I knew you'd get that Blue Bird set! What power are you going to use to pull it?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Brian,
Please post pictures and your opinions of the cars when they arrive. I'm excited for you!

Aaron

PS-I like both, but I really prefer the 21" monsters!


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## Railrunnin (Dec 24, 2015)

Same here Brian, looking forward to seeing the pictures.

Paul


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

This from the guy who claimed a few weeks ago that he had about enough cars, etc. Yeah, I know, they have been on order for a year, etc. 

All we have are 18" but Brian has talked us into trying some 21". So we decided to go with larger than 072 track. Redoing track plans seems to take years


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Brian's post about the Blue Bird cars prompted me to ask a dealer which of the new 21" sets are going to be shipping soon - as in next week or the week after. He said some of the sets will and that he thinks one of them will be the Texas Special.

I'm looking forward to seeing this and comparing it with the last Lionel 21" aluminum cars of this train. I have the unfortunate impression that side-by-side it will be all too obvious that the new cars are plastic but I'll wait, see and report on what I find when they finally appear.


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## Railrunnin (Dec 24, 2015)

There are many of us lamenting not having the K-Line cars around any longer. Who owns the dies / tools of those cars? Seems a ready to buy market is in place...

Paul


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

While I too love the look of the 21" cars and will have curves that will easily handle them,I am sticking with 18" cars all around as they are readily available and are offered in the most road names.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I have only 16" (MTH 60') cars. The 21" cars did look pretty nice when I saw them at Harry Henning's (NPOG) layout last spring. No way I could run 21" cars due to clearance issues. But 18" sounds interesting. I might look for some to go with my Railking Reading T1.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

We'll see 18" cars again. They'll be awesome also-Lionel is learning with the 21" cars and all those lessons will be on the 18" cars of the future. Plus, the ABS bodies, though controversial, will lend themselves to detail many have never saw or knew possible in the past. Atlas has already proven that. Eventually, they'll master the 'bare metal' look and buyers will wonder why they waited so long to produce the newer cars after they arrive.

I'm excited to see the future of Lionel passenger cars. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2016)

I have a set of Lionel Legacy F units to pull the Blue Bird. Sure will post photos when the cars arrive.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ... I have the unfortunate impression that side-by-side it will be all too obvious that the new cars are plastic but I'll wait, see and report on what I find when they finally appear.


Should be interesting to see the results. For painted liveries like the Texas Special (i.e., as opposed to the real shiny liveries like the PA Congressional), the ABS material and its ability to show immense detail should be very promising -- especially for fluted (as opposed to smooth) sides. I too wanted the Texas Special in Lionel's originally planned 18" aluminum version, but I'm hopefully optimistic to see what arrives in 21" ABS within the next week or two.

David


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Should be interesting to see the results. For painted liveries like the Texas Special (i.e., as opposed to the real shiny liveries like the PA Congressional), the ABS material and its ability to show immense detail should be very promising -- especially for fluted (as opposed to smooth) sides.


I know what you mean but I think that the stainless steel fluted panels on the Texas Special streamline cars really dominate the external appearance; here's a good photo of the MKT observation car Stephen F. Austin in service, which shows what I mean:









The last 21"aluminum cars Lionel made of this train, based on K-Line tooling, reproduced the above effect beautifully. I doubt that the plastic cars will, or not without putting a special paint finish on the fluted panels. (I've recently experimented with Alclad chrome lacquer and I think that would work but it would be a big project.)

Anyway, we'll know soon enough what these cars look like - or so I hope.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2016)

*"I know what you mean but I think that the stainless steel fluted panels on the Texas Special streamline cars really dominate the external appearance; here's a good photo of the MKT observation car Stephen F. Austin in service"*

Andy, how to you spell K-Line. They got it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Back in the '50s Kodak developed a process to deposit actual chrome metal on to plastic. Lionel could redeem itself with these MKT cars if they did that or at least attempted to duplicate the look. If they do then I would buy a set.

Pete


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Norton said:


> Back in the '50s Kodak developed a process to deposit actual chrome metal on to plastic. Lionel could redeem itself with these MKT cars if they did that or at least attempted to duplicate the look. If they do then I would buy a set.
> 
> Pete


That's interesting, not least because I've heard of it before but don't remember any details. Anyway, modern lacquer paints used in aircraft modeling can get you most of the way to chrome, let alone stainless steel, on a flat and perfectly prepared plastic surface. Trouble is I don't expect Lionel to have done this let alone chromed the new plastic cars.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2016)

Chugman said:


> We should try to hide our sharp 072 curves in tunnels or out of sight to help preserve the illusion.
> 
> Art


Hi Art:

I have the real estate for a 39" turn at the end of my peninsulas in HO (equivalent to O-156 in three rail land  ), but I've always thought that O scale could make very good use of this concept, and concentrate on longer straight-aways. I is called a Bellina Drop. I'vepasted a link below from a Google Search. The book the exerpt is from Tony Koester's "Designing and Building Multi-Deck Model Railroads". 

Using this technique, those modeling midwest scenes don't have to hide their curves in a tunnel, you just don't see them.  No worry about overhang. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=V...nepage&q=bellina drops model railroad&f=false

Regards, 
GNNPNUT


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I have 18 and 20 inch on my layout, I have 0-82 curves so they both look fine to me. 

What I can't believe is with the very high price of the new Lionel 21" cars, they come without people. I heard the whys from Mike Reagan at York, but was still astounded that they would leave out the people.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Craignor said:


> What I can't believe is with the very high price of the new Lionel 21" cars, they come without people. I heard the whys from Mike Reagan at York, but was still astounded that they would leave out the people.


Tell me about it. But Lionel's supposed to be offering passenger figures as a separate, install 'em yourself, product line. Catalog SKU is 6-83653, they list for $29.99 for 24 painted figures (dealers are taking pre-orders at about 7 bucks less) but they won't be available until September. No details yet on what these little people will look like. 

I can see that this is a business proposition for Lionel as (a) they save something on the cost of having the figures installed at the factory and (b) if you don't buy theirs you have to source figures from an importer (mainly from China or HK) whose quality is variable at best or try to track down the old K-Line and MTH Railking sets. The latter are currently selling for a premium at something like $3-$4 per figure.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2016)

In terms of the stainless steel look of the new Lionel 21" cars that call for it, they will look exactly like the ESE set that was shipped last late last year. Don't expect them to look any brighter.

For me, the Blue Bird set will need to be corrected. I have already researched what can be done to achieve the look I want. I will keep you posted once I have a good look at them.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

This is a case of being careful what you ask for-separate sale passengers. We got them, not how we thought though!

Personally, I could care less if they come with or out passengers. Lionel made a good move-sell a product without an additional item many will want. We've saw that before. I'll running mine without as I choose not to spend additional money.

As for cost, K-line cars bring a higher premium/difficulty in locating certain sets, GGD sets at 1/3-2/3 more, Lionel's are competitive in the market. Not to mention, the new ABS cars will be better detailed, accurate to prototype, have LED lights, and cost less.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> . . . Lionel made a good move-sell a product without an additional item many will want. We've saw that before. I'll running mine without as I choose not to spend additional money.
> 
> As for cost, K-line cars bring a higher premium/difficulty in locating certain sets, GGD sets at 1/3-2/3 more, Lionel's are competitive in the market. Not to mention, the new ABS cars will be better detailed, accurate to prototype, have LED lights, and cost less.


Well, while I might not agree on all counts I will reserve judgment/further comment until these cars arrive. However I anticipate that they will take some extra effort as well as expense to get up to something like the standard of Lionel's former aluminum cars' bodywork and interior features. 

On that score, if you are interested in seeing what it takes to get the ESE cars Brian mentions up to scratch in terms of interior details you might wish to look here, which is Alex M's account of opening them up to get at the "plain vanilla" insides that I am pretty sure will be part of the other sets in this first run of ABS products: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/...el-ese-21-inch-passenger-cars-pictures?page=1

P.S. If I get to York this time I'll be (a) quizzing Mike R. on how the UP excursion cars will be fitted out _inside_ under the new LED lighting and (b) expecting to see a Legacy crane in operation.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Well, while I might not agree on all counts I will reserve judgment/further comment until these cars arrive. However I anticipate that they will take some extra effort as well as expense to get up to something like the standard of Lionel's former aluminum cars' bodywork and interior features.
> 
> On that score, if you are interested in seeing what it takes to get the ESE cars Brian mentions up to scratch in terms of interior details you might wish to look here, which is Alex M's account of opening them up to get at the "plain vanilla" insides that I am pretty sure will be part of the other sets in this first run of ABS products: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/...el-ese-21-inch-passenger-cars-pictures?page=1
> 
> P.S. If I get to York this time I'll be (a) quizzing Mike R. on how the UP excursion cars will be fitted out _inside_ under the new LED lighting and (b) expecting to see a Legacy crane in operation.


After rereading my post, I realize now I was typing faster than I was capturing thoughts! I meant to say, "_Lionel made a good business move in their eyes_"

When Alex posted his thread I spent a lot of time looking at the pictures/reviewing the cars. Wish I could see them in person to be the final judge. 

As for the interiors, it seems to me Lionel's ABS and aluminum cars share similar traits. I don't remember aluminum interiors having any color, paint, or details other than chairs and tables in certain cars, though I'm probably wrong. That's what I expected from the new ABS models.

Please do quiz Mike R on the UP Excursion cars and report back. If they have prototypes there, which I doubt, please take lots of pictures and post for us. I know several of us will be interested in what you learn/see!


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> After rereading my post, I realize now I was typing faster than I was capturing thoughts! I meant to say, "_Lionel made a good business move in their eyes_"
> 
> When Alex posted his thread I spent a lot of time looking at the pictures/reviewing the cars. Wish I could see them in person to be the final judge . . .
> 
> As for the interiors, it seems to me Lionel's ABS and aluminum cars share similar traits. I don't remember aluminum interiors having any color, paint, or details other than chairs and tables in certain cars, though I'm probably wrong. That's what I expected from the new ABS models.


We're really on the same page; up to a point I understand Lionel's move but I'm concerned that the ABS product will disappoint in a couple of respects being (a) mediocre representation of metal finish where prototypes and aluminum models of them had gleaming polished metal and (b) interiors that will require a lot of work to avoid them looking plain. 

Looking at Alex M's thread, it was pretty clear that the interiors of his Lionel ABS ESE cars were new designs, which is positive as it's a good starting point for detailing.

Maybe it's just what I have collected but all of my Lionel aluminum cars, whether 15, 18 or 21 inch, have interiors with fixtures in different colored plastic and hand-painted passengers. The new ABS cars seem to be a calculated departure from this.

If I'm at York I'll see what answers Mike R. gives and what there is there to photograph, which I will certainly post here.


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