# Brushless or brushed??



## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

I have been building RC cars for years and there are two type of motors brushed and brushless the brushed motors are silver vented cans with two wires and the brushless are sealed no vented 3 wire motors so when a tech guy at the train show told me that my Williams f7 trains are all brushless I said no cant because my motors are vented silver 2 wire can motors he said that is brushless ???? So are these really brushless guys ?? Thanks for your time


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)




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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

You can trust you're gut. If a motor only has 2 wires, it is a "brushed" motor. 

I don't believe that any O gauge train has ever used brushless motors.

Brushless motors are great for top end speed, but they aren't great for creeping along at very low RPM. Radio Controlled models typically like the all out speed and so it's a great combo. 

Guessing what the tech guy meant to say, is that the can motors in your engine, as well as most modern engines, don't have user replaceable brushes. 



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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The previous post is correct, there are no brushless motors in any of the O-scale stuff I've ever seen or even worked on. Brushless motors require a special controller to operate. If you look through the slots on those motors in the picture, you can actually see the brushes in those motors. The brushes are very close to the two motor leads in these motors.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yep yep and yep 

Wonder if the term he was looking for was coreless???


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

thanks guys, this is why i came here to ask, which leads me to this qs. i just put back together a differant williams f7 that the guy gave me in pieces and noticed that the front motor doesnt run, i am at work so i cant test on a track so i used a 12 volt lantern battery and when i contacted the wheel chucks base and the middle roller contact thingy (sorry dont know the name) the back motor turned not the front, so i did the next test and disconnected the plug from that motor from the circuit board and tested the motor directly on the blue and yellow wire that leads up on the motor itself , not running? then on the front motor i know works just to asure my connection was right that motor turns... is that i have a blown mabuchi here?? thanks guys


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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

It definitely sounds like that could be a possibility. I would also try removing the motor from the truck and make sure that there isn't something binding in the truck itself. That is a small chance, but it is a possibility. 
With the motor out, if applying direct DC power doesn't make it spin, then yes, it would need a new one. 

And for completeness sake, you may want to plug the working motor into the board location for the bad motor and power up the engine with track power to make sure that the electronics for the bad motor are working fine. It is possible that when the motor went bad, that it could have damaged some electronics along with it. This isn't always the case, but it's good to check it ahead of time. 


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

enginEErjon said:


> It definitely sounds like that could be a possibility. I would also try removing the motor from the truck and make sure that there isn't something binding in the truck itself. That is a small chance, but it is a possibility.
> With the motor out, if applying direct DC power doesn't make it spin, then yes, it would need a new one.
> 
> And for completeness sake, you may want to plug the working motor into the board location for the bad motor and power up the engine with track power to make sure that the electronics for the bad motor are working fine. It is possible that when the motor went bad, that it could have damaged some electronics along with it. This isn't always the case, but it's good to check it ahead of time.
> ...


did that already but thanks also when i spin the flywheel wieght on top the trains wheels move the train so i dont think theres a bind issue, ill just have to wait till i get home and test on track, which leads me to another qs, can the engine move the train with one motor or will it bind up and not move since the other motor doesnt work? i turned the flywheel wieght on the good motor while resting on a table and it moved the train.


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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

The single motor will move the train. However, there are several things to consider. A single motor train will pull more current through that single motor then each of the motors in a dual motor train would. This would be a potential source of issues in the long term. It's also possible that the boards were designed to be used in both a 1 motor and 2 motor design, but I don't have any reference here. So I would suggest that if it was designed for two functioning motors, then keep it as a two motor train. Or if you don't intend to keep it for very long, then take the risk and see how long it lasts.  Ultimately it's your decision on how much "excitement" you want to have. 


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

enginEErjon said:


> The single motor will move the train. However, there are several things to consider. A single motor train will pull more current through that single motor then each of the motors in a dual motor train would. This would be a potential source of issues in the long term. It's also possible that the boards were designed to be used in both a 1 motor and 2 motor design, but I don't have any reference here. So I would suggest that if it was designed for two functioning motors, then keep it as a two motor train. Or if you don't intend to keep it for very long, then take the risk and see how long it lasts.  Ultimately it's your decision on how much "excitement" you want to have.
> 
> 
> Posted via Tapatalk


you gave me a idea, since i got 9 of these for a great price i think i will do a test, i will remove the bad motor to reduce a little wieght and i wont pull more than 4 light wieght non lighted cars. I will keep you all posted on this with results of either the adams family train fire or not, ha ha


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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

Adams family would sure be exciting, but to be honest, even if the electronics weren't designed to handle the extra current of a single motor train, you would have to run it, as a single, for days, maybe even months before anything were to happen.

And with most any modern electronic design, the most excitement you are likely to experience when something "goes bad" is a bad smell and maybe a quick wisp of smoke.  




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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you remove the motor and leave the motor mount (to hold the truck on), it should run fine on a single motor. Put the single motor in the back for the best traction. Adding a bit of weight over the driving wheels, or at least near them, will help as well.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you remove the motor and leave the motor mount (to hold the truck on), it should run fine on a single motor. Put the single motor in the back for the best traction. Adding a bit of weight over the driving wheels, or at least near them, will help as well.


lucky for me the good motor is in the back but i did notice the back wheels have 2 traction rubbers and the front has 4, does this mean theres more tourge on the front?? also when i do get the new motor does it come with the flywheel on the top or do i have to remove the old one? if so does it need to be pressed off cause i didnt notice any alen screws ??? thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's not normal to have four traction tires on one truck, I've never seen that!

A new motor will come with a flywheel, as without special tools, the flywheel is very difficult to remove.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's not normal to have four traction tires on one truck, I've never seen that!
> 
> A new motor will come with a flywheel, as without special tools, the flywheel is very difficult to remove.


Are you stumped? It is a 2003 Williams f7 D and H


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

Ok guys got home from work and tested train with both motors front one not running, no movement so I took front motor off still no movement then I took apart the front gears cause it was so caked up with old grease, put back together and oiled it no grease runs like a champ now pulling 5 cars with lighted passenger cars for 20 min. Engine temp is at 78 degrees which leads me to this Qs what is a save temp for these motors


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

You can see in the pic, that someone has put traction tires on standard none grooved wheels on one side.

You should remove those, that can cause problems on some switches.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You beat me to it. Not only will they cause issues with switches, but you only have two wheels carrying power to the locomotive, and they're close together. I second the recommendation to take the extras off.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

BWA said:


> You can see in the pic, that someone has put traction tires on standard none grooved wheels on one side.
> 
> You should remove those, that can cause problems on some switches.


nope, just checked all 4 have grooved sections in rim for traction rubber, manufacure error here??


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Very unlikely to be a manufacturing error, more likely someone thought they were making an "upgrade", and, replaced the wheels.

Will be real surprised if you don't end up having problems with it stalling on switches.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

BWA said:


> Very unlikely to be a manufacturing error, more likely someone thought they were making an "upgrade", and, replaced the wheels.
> 
> Will be real surprised if you don't end up having problems with it stalling on switches.


Lucky for me my tracks (except the middle one but thats for old school trains) don't have any switches


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

So I was taking the blown motor apart and noticed that the flywheel comes off very easily but the gear is a pain do I need a gear puller? I have a set of this tool. But there small and for my slot cars


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The motors are normally supplied with both the flywheel and the gear. It is NOT easy as a rule to get either of them off. I know a pretty seasoned repair guy that has destroyed a couple of motors trying to remove the gear to change it, it's really on there tight!


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The motors are normally supplied with both the flywheel and the gear. It is NOT easy as a rule to get either of them off. I know a pretty seasoned repair guy that has destroyed a couple of motors trying to remove the gear to change it, it's really on there tight!


Can you post me a link on a supplier that sells these engines with the gear and flywheel attached? I can't find it on the web, thanks for the help GRJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If it's a Williams locomotive, first stop would be Bachmann/Williams, is this your motor?

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_77_233&products_id=5427


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If it's a Williams locomotive, first stop would be Bachmann/Williams, is this your motor?
> 
> http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_77_233&products_id=5427
> 
> View attachment 34040


I have the Williams f7 like the pictures posted so you have part # for this link ? Also that is the list price right cause someone said around 20 bucks any other sites beside the manufacture? Thanks


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