# Pocher Italy Passenger coaches



## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Hello everyone,

I happened across a Pocher dining car during a swap with a gentleman. It is a very beautiful coach with good detail and I would like to find more of the same livery to complete a set. I searched all over, and the only car I could find was on eBay, it was another dining car exactly like this one, and was around $100.00

I really do not care about brand, as long as it looks nice, I know some European brands such as Roco, Piko, Lima, Lilliput, and Fleishman. I searched for just bits of the name across the top of the car, but to no avail.

Does anyone know where to find like coaches to make a set? Does anyone have the history of this coach like where it was run and what pulled it? Were they mixed colors in real life and I'm not finding them because I'm looking for the same livery? If you know where to find them, or if you have some that you may consider parting with, please let me know. It is a beautiful car, and I'm sure I can make an exquisite luncheon train just pulling the one coach, but I'd like to know more about it. Thanks!


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I had a set of short passenger cars with a locomotive by Pocher. If you plan to run it you will need code 100 track and deep groves in the frogs. The wheels on mine were like pizza cutters. Very good quality but I ended up selling it as 99% of my stuff is US. Other than my kids Thomas trains I have no interest in keeping the European stuff anymore.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

tkruger said:


> I had a set of short passenger cars with a locomotive by Pocher. If you plan to run it you will need code 100 track and deep groves in the frogs. The wheels on mine were like pizza cutters. Very good quality but I ended up selling it as 99% of my stuff is US. Other than my kids Thomas trains I have no interest in keeping the European stuff anymore.


I have just a little track on a board right now, but the layout I'll be building uses all Peco 100, including the turnouts. I'm just the opposite. I have gotten rid of all of my American stuff except a John Bull set I'm trying to sell and a smoking passenger train I'm keeping. My son has Thomas as well, and I am getting all UK and Euro to model on the layout I'm building.

A guy on Facebook told me it was CIWL, but everything, even in google image search, is blue or blue and white, and a few others, but nothing this color. A gentleman on Facebook told me this was an Orient Express dining car used to sign the armistice at Rethondes in 1918 and that the Dining car was destroyed by the German Army in 1940.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Wolferz said:


> I have just a little track on a board right now, but the layout I'll be building uses all Peco 100, including the turnouts. I'm just the opposite. I have gotten rid of all of my American stuff except a John Bull set I'm trying to sell and a smoking passenger train I'm keeping. My son has Thomas as well, and I am getting all UK and Euro to model on the layout I'm building.
> 
> Good thinking with the code 100 if going Euro. If you are doing a European layout allot of the american models made by Polo are just modified European ones. Or generic enough that a little paint can make them fit either.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

That's certainly a very interesting model. It does look like the same coach used to sign the armistice in 1918. This was destroyed by the SS troops guarding it in 1945 but in 1950 a replacement from the original batch correct in every detail replaced it at the armistice site. Poacher were a premium brand. You're not going to find much in the US in the same line but I have seen them come up on eBay in Europe and UK for about $35, that would seem to be your best source. Shouldn't be a problem as most sellers send internationally. I found this which you might find interesting: http://mmiwakoh.de/Eigene Webs/lima-modellbahn/CIWL en.htm
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/x-vintage-pocher-ho-gauge-orient-513344867


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Cycleops said:


> That's certainly a very interesting model. It does look like the same coach used to sign the armistice in 1918. This was destroyed by the SS troops guarding it in 1945 but in 1950 a replacement from the original batch correct in every detail replaced it at the armistice site. Poacher were a premium brand. You're not going to find much in the US in the same line but I have seen them come up on eBay in Europe and UK for about $35, that would seem to be your best source. Shouldn't be a problem as most sellers send internationally. I found this which you might find interesting: http://mmiwakoh.de/Eigene Webs/lima-modellbahn/CIWL en.htm
> http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/x-vintage-pocher-ho-gauge-orient-513344867


Thanks Cycleops. So, do I look for the Flèche d´Or cars to match the brown dining? I found one Rivarossi N scale for $106. Cannot seem to find much in HO or even OO on any sale site. I see the blue and the blue and white ones. Does anyone have a color photo of what the real train carrying the armistice car looked like? Thanks!


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm not really an expert on European trains but I do know that these carriages saw service all over Europe with a variety of different rail company's so would have carried a many different liveries. You won't find any in OO as that scale is peculiar to the UK, they'll all be HO. The armistice coach was in clear varnished wood (teak?). These CIWL coaches are the ones us d on the Orient Express which runs today. Found this on the net: http://irps-wl.org.uk/online/HO Gau...ent+Express+3+pack+set.htm?action=full&id=259
You should be able to find quite a few as they are a popular item. As far as I can see most seem to be brown, blue or chocolate and cream.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Cycleops said:


> I'm not really an expert on European trains but I do know that these carriages saw service all over Europe with a variety of different rail company's so would have carried a many different liveries. You won't find any in OO as that scale is peculiar to the UK, they'll all be HO. The armistice coach was in clear varnished wood (teak?). These CIWL coaches are the ones us d on the Orient Express which runs today. Found this on the net: http://irps-wl.org.uk/online/HO Gau...ent+Express+3+pack+set.htm?action=full&id=259
> You should be able to find quite a few as they are a popular item. As far as I can see most seem to be brown, blue or chocolate and cream.


Thanks for the link. The colors are the issue. I have found lots of CIWL coaches. The Armistice car I have is the varnished wood. I cannot find the actual train in color to determine if I need to purchase matching wood ($100 - $250 per car), or if the train had mixed colors and I can purchase the blue (a mere $20 per car). The price point is a huge difference and will determine if I can complete the train in the near future or if I have to do it a little at a time.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Has anyone discovered whether these coaches should be all brown or if they should be mixed with blue ones? Was the "Orient Express" the train it was attached to in 1918? I read that it was later part of the French presidential train, but not what pulled it when the armistice was signed.... Thanks guys!


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## EMD_GP9 (Jun 19, 2012)

CIWL 2419D is the WW1 armistice coach.
This was used to sign the armistice in 1918 and then used as a memorial.
It was used again to sign the French surrender in WW2 and then taken to Germany and destroyed.
Hope this helps. Colin.


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## Ed Gerken (Jan 23, 2012)

Last night after reading this thread, by coincidence "The Dirty Dozen: The Fatal Mission" aired on ThisTV. The Orient Express car #2420 was used in the movie and later destroyed in the final showdown. Ernest Borgnine makes a reference to the Armistice train in some early dialog and its acquisition by the Germans figures in the movie.

-Ed


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Unfortunately you're not going to get much historical accuracy from Hollywood!


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## Ed Gerken (Jan 23, 2012)

You mean Ernest Borgnine and Telly Savalas really didn't stop the 4th Reich from forming??









I just thought the Armistice train coming up the same day in an old TV movie was interesting.

-Ed


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Cycleops said:


> Unfortunately you're not going to get much historical accuracy from Hollywood!


Wonderful, this news after reading a survey on the internet stating that 80% of all internet surveys are inaccurate.


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## BobOne (Feb 6, 2021)

Hey everyone. I have this passenger HO Pocher train car. Trying to identify it age and name of car line or road. It is plastic with an Eagle logo on side of car. Any help is appreciated.


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