# Troubleshooting AF Postwar switches and derailings



## Reckers

This is copied verbatim from Classic Toy Trains Magazine web site (http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/186214/2035415.aspx),
to give credit where it's due. It was such a good discussion on problem-solving the old post-war switch problems, I thought it worth copying to our site as a reference.


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SeabeeBrad
Posts :11 
Joined: 02-07-2010
Mohnton, PA 

Post War AF Steamers Derailing
SeabeeBrad Posted: Mon, Jan 24 2011 10:28 AM Reply 

I am having a problem with my AF steamers (Atlantic, Hudson, Royal Blue, Challenger) front wheels derailing when they ride over the curved section of my post war AF switches. This happens on all of my AF switches and is not isolated to one switch or one steamer. My diesels rarely derail on the switches. I tried taping washers to the front wheel assembly on one of the trains to see if added weight would help. It did not seem to work very well. I am at the point where I rarely run the steamers ad if I do i only run them on certain sections of the layout to avoid going over the curved switch track section. I would really appreciate it if any one has any ideas to solve this problem.

P.S. I am using original AF track and rubber road bed.






Timboy
Posts :898 
Joined: 02-26-2010
Flyertown, USA 

REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Timboy replied on Mon, Jan 24 2011 10:41 AM Reply 

Wow! All of the switches and all of your steamers! Have you looked at the gauging on the front pilot wheels? They can get out of gauge and when that happens, they can derail.

Timboy






Major
Posts :180 
Joined: 03-13-2010
Baltimore, MD 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Major replied on Mon, Jan 24 2011 12:22 PM Reply 

Tim boy is correct in checking the gauge of the pilot wheels on the steam locomotives, but I believe IMHO the problem is one of two things. Speed or track work.. None of your locomotives should derail going through a switch. You alluded to the fact that even your diesels have derail albeit rarely when negotiating a switch. An Atlantic locomotive is one of the best tracking locomotives Gilbert produced and tolerates a lot of poor track work with out derailing so I am wondering if you are going too fast through the switches. Try to watch a locomotive go through a switch at dead slow speed to see if you could identify exactly what is causing the derailment problem.

Another thing, are you using the earlier style 720 switches instead of the 720A? The earlier style has problems with the moving rails being a different height than the fixed rails in the switch and this can cause derailments.








Penny Trains
Posts :462 
Joined: 09-24-2010
Parma Heights Ohio 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Penny Trains replied on Mon, Jan 24 2011 7:52 PM Reply 

I have a similar problem with my 300ac, but it's just an oval, no switches. I flattened the board under the track and nailed the track down too but it still tends to derail. In my case, do y'all think adding a bit of weight under the truck would help? Maybe replacing the spring with a stronger one? How do you check the wheel gauge?

I'm in the change-over period between winter and summer layouts so now would be the time to fix things.

Becky

A waking Lithium Flower just about to bloom






Timboy
Posts :898 
Joined: 02-26-2010
Flyertown, USA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Timboy replied on Mon, Jan 24 2011 8:06 PM Reply 

Becky,

For some odd reason, that front truck is climbing up over one set of rails. I suggest taking a look at how level the two rails are. I use a very small (fits easily in the palm of my hand) level. I suspect that one rail is higher (or lower). Derailing on rails that are out of level is exacerbated by curves and switches. Adding weight can sometimes help. A new conical spring will sometimes help. In the absence of an NASG gauge tool, wheel gauge can be easily checked with a dime. That dime should just fit between the wheel flanges. It doesn't matter what type or design of dime, as long as it's pretty new and USA currency. A dime is a dime - for this purpose. 

Good luck!

Timboy






SeabeeBrad
Posts :11 
Joined: 02-07-2010
Mohnton, PA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
SeabeeBrad replied on Mon, Jan 24 2011 9:16 PM Reply 

I have both 720's and 720A's. I am thinking it is a combination of wheels out of gauge and track level. This is the first layout I have ever built so I am encountering things with the old AF stuff that I never thought about.






richhotrain
Posts :3,804 
Joined: 09-26-2004 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
richhotrain replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 5:11 AM Reply 

I have a fairly extensive HO scale layout with plenty of steamers, and I also run a much smaller S scale layout with an American Flyer Baldwin diesel and a 4-6-2 Pacific.

The problems with steamers derailing on switches is similar in both gauge, although the vintage American Flyer steamers seem much more tolerant than do HO gauge steamers, probably because of the sheer weight of the American Flyer locomotives.

The typical problems with derailments over the switches include, out of gauge pilot truck wheels, insufficient weight on the pilot wheels, uneven height of the frog and/or point rails compared to the stock rails, and open point rails.

In HO scale, out of gauge pilot wheels are rarely the problem. Uneven frogs and point rails mostly cause uncouplings and sometimes, but less frequently, derailments. In HO scale, the real culprits are: (1) insufficient weight of the pilot truck to hold the truck down on the tracks and (2) open point rails.

I, too, have experienced problems with derailments on my Pacific steam engine running over switches, mostly on the divergent route but also on the straight through route. It does run a little rough over the switches, and the uneven height of the various parts of the switches do cause uncouplings of the freight cars but not derailments. I do not believe that there is insufficient weight on the pilot truck. The sheer weight of the locomotive is enough to hold it down on the tracks. As far as out of gauge wheels go, that is a rare problem in HO scale with pilot trucks, and in my opinion not a likely source of the problem in S scale.

I have observed point rail problems on my American Flyer layout. When the switch is thrown, the point rail assembly does not always close completely against the outside stock rail to permit the pilot wheels to negotiate the turn into the divergent route. Once the switch is thrown to divergent and then thrown again to straight through, the point rail assembly does not fully close to the inside stock rail to permit the pilot wheels to negotiate the straight through route. The reason seems to be that the moveable point rail assembly sticks a little and does not smoothly or fully rotate. As a result, the crucial point rail remains open and does not completely tuck in against the stock rail on one side and does not provide complete wheel clearance from the opposite stock rail. 

My solution was to lubricate the point rail assembly with light oil and to insert a very thin piece of styrene under the edge of the point rail assembly and the base of the switch assembly itself. That solved the problem by eliminating the rubbing of the point rail assembly on the base of the switch assembly. Once I did that, problems with the pilot truck wheels derailing completely ceased.

Rich






Timboy
Posts :898 
Joined: 02-26-2010
Flyertown, USA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Timboy replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 6:51 AM Reply 

Rich:

As you gain experience in American Flyer troubleshooting and repairs, I'll wager you will come to the realization that wheels being out of gauge is a common occurrence with American Flyer loci and rolling stock. Perhaps not so much with front pilot wheels, but it bears checking anyway, IMHO. Since he stated that ALL of his steamers ALWAYS derail when going through ALL his switches, there is something grossly wrong. Perhaps as was previously suggested, he is highballing trains through uneven switches that weren't meant for highballing in the first place. Hard to know without being there and I hope he reports back when he finds a solution. I generally refrain from telling someone NOT to check something that is easy to do and does not require a tear-down. I figure it's all part of the learning process and all good.

Regards,

Timboy 






richhotrain
Posts :3,804 
Joined: 09-26-2004 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
richhotrain replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 8:25 AM Reply 


Timboy:

Rich:

As you gain experience in American Flyer troubleshooting and repairs, I'll wager you will come to the realization that wheels being out of gauge is a common occurrence with American Flyer loci and rolling stock. Perhaps not so much with front pilot wheels, but it bears checking anyway, IMHO. Since he stated that ALL of his steamers ALWAYS derail when going through ALL his switches, there is something grossly wrong. Perhaps as was previously suggested, he is highballing trains through uneven switches that weren't meant for highballing in the first place. Hard to know without being there and I hope he reports back when he finds a solution. I generally refrain from telling someone NOT to check something that is easy to do and does not require a tear-down. I figure it's all part of the learning process and all good.

Regards,

Timboy 



Tim, I'm not looking for an argument, and I admit to having less experience with American Flyer troubleshooting than with HO scale. But, I weighed in with my opinion because I had the same problem as the OP. As you yourself conceded regarding wheels being out of gauge, not so much with front pilot wheels. I am not discounting the possibility, and I do not believe that I told him NOT to check something that is easy to do.

Since all of the steamers are derailing on all of the switches, something may more likely be wrong with the operation rather than with the equipment, probably excessive speed, particularly since the OP indicates problems only with the divergent route. 

Statistically, the possibility of the wheels being out of gauge on all of the steamers is pretty low. However, the possibility of all of the switches having mechanical problems is still relatively high, particularly if the equipment has not been used for awhile. That's why I mentioned sticky point rail assemblies.

But, in retrospect, I gave the OP four issues to look for: out of gauge pilot truck wheels, insufficient weight on the pilot wheels, uneven height of the frog and/or point rails compared to the stock rails, and open point rails.

Rich






Timboy
Posts :898 
Joined: 02-26-2010
Flyertown, USA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Timboy replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 8:55 AM Reply 

Rich:

I disagree with your unsubstantiated "statistics" but agree with your last statement wholeheartedly. I have seen Flyer frog points bend. I have also sharpened some up and tweaked the gauging of the switch tracks. I have found some to be gauged too wide and caused the front pilot to climb over the rails.

Regards,

Timboy






SeabeeBrad
Posts :11 
Joined: 02-07-2010
Mohnton, PA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
SeabeeBrad replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 9:15 AM Reply 

I may have mistated in the OP that the steamers derail every time they pass over a switch, they don't. However, all of the steamers have a habit of frequently derailing on the turnouts (I have 4 switches). All of my stuff is in less than mint condition being bought at shows and on ebay. I then do my best to clean them up, learning as I go. As I stated earlier I am starting to believe the problem is a combination of what has been suggested on this thread. I would not be surprised if the piolet wheels were out of gauge on some of the trains and I definitly would not be surprised if some of the track and switches were out of gauge.

Regads,

Brad






richhotrain
Posts :3,804 
Joined: 09-26-2004 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
richhotrain replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 10:03 AM Reply 


SeabeeBrad:

I may have mistated in the OP that the steamers derail every time they pass over a switch, they don't. However, all of the steamers have a habit of frequently derailing on the turnouts (I have 4 switches). All of my stuff is in less than mint condition being bought at shows and on ebay. I then do my best to clean them up, learning as I go. As I stated earlier I am starting to believe the problem is a combination of what has been suggested on this thread. I would not be surprised if the piolet wheels were out of gauge on some of the trains and I definitly would not be surprised if some of the track and switches were out of gauge.

Regads,

Brad



Brad,

Then let me ask you this. 

If the steam engines don't derail every time on every switch, when a particular steam engine takes the divergent route on a particular switch, if it negotiates the turn successfully at a given time, will it continue to negotiate that turn on that same switch time after time until the route is set to straight once again? Or, will it sometimes succeed and sometimes fail (derail) with that switch always remaining in the divergent route position?

That's a test I would make to determine whether the switching mechanism is at fault. Once you reset the switch to the alternate routing position, all bets are off and you have to restart the test.

Also, do any of the steam engines ever derail when any of the switches are set to take the straight through route?

Rich






SeabeeBrad
Posts :11 
Joined: 02-07-2010
Mohnton, PA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
SeabeeBrad replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 10:20 AM Reply 

It will sometimes succeed and sometimes fail without the route being switched. I rarely have a derailment when the train is going straight. The failure is consistantly on the divergant route. Usually what happens is the train will make it successfully around the divergant route a few times in a row and then derail.

Brad






richhotrain
Posts :3,804 
Joined: 09-26-2004 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
richhotrain replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 3:45 PM Reply 


SeabeeBrad:

It will sometimes succeed and sometimes fail without the route being switched. I rarely have a derailment when the train is going straight. The failure is consistantly on the divergant route. Usually what happens is the train will make it successfully around the divergant route a few times in a row and then derail.

Brad



Ugh !

Not the answer you wanted. You are looking for constancy. Constant success or constant failure. Sometimes it tracks without derailing, sometimes it doesn't.

So, to me, if the wheels on the pilot truck are out gauge, then it is a speed problem. At slower speeds out of gauge wheels may climb up and off the rail, but at slow speeds, they are usually able to come back down square on the rail even on curves. But at higher speeds, an out of gauge wheel is less likely to return square onto the rail, especially on curves.

If it is the point rail assembly, with sporadic failure, it is probably closing against the stock rail initially but gradually opening and moving away from the stock rail, either due to vibration or the movement of the train itself over the point rail assembly. Slower and faster speeds wouldn't seem to be an issue here. You need to observe whether the point rail stays snug against the stock rail or gradually moves away into a more open position.

If the switch has uneven surfaces on the rails and the frog, then speed can make the difference. At slower speeds, just like out of gauge wheels, the pilot truck will lift up off the rails but return safely. At higher speeds, though, it will not necessarily come back down squarely on the rails.

As to the fourth possible issue, adding weight to the pilot truck, I have never had to do that on my AF steamer. But in HO scale, all of my steamers have added weight on the pilot truck. I use lead sheet attached on the underside of the truck with 5 minute epoxy. When the pilot truck derails in HO scale, the problem is almost always poor track work (at which I am expert - LOL). However, the added weight on the pilot truck can often mask the problem, at least at moderate speeds.

Brad, trying running a steamer through the same switch several times with the switch thrown to the divergent route, varying the speed with each pass. Observe what happens. Does the entire front end of the locomotive lift up. Does only the pilot truck lift up? Is there a maximum speed acceptable before it derails? Does the point rail stay snug against the stock rail even when the loco derails?

Let us know the results.

Rich






SeabeeBrad
Posts :11 
Joined: 02-07-2010
Mohnton, PA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
SeabeeBrad replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 7:12 PM Reply 

I will give your suggestions a try. Hopefully I will get to it before the weekend. Once I do i will report the results. You mentioning the points moving is intriguing. I have noticed that the points on my switches have some "wiggle" to them when thrown in the divergent position. It's like they could go over further but they "spring" back a bit. Hmm.

Brad



Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Major replied on Tue, Jan 25 2011 9:16 PM Reply 

Inside Flyer switches is a spring loaded plunger that fits into notches that help hold the moving rails in position. I know from experience that a steam locomotive will tend to push the moving rails out of their lock position on the curved route due to their long wheel bases. This movement is exacerbated when the plunger spring is weak and can't hold the rails in position. Sometimes the shaft is not correctly adjusted and the plunger does not enter the notch completely or corrosion causes the plunger to hang up. You can feel the difference in effort required to move the rails in a properly functioning switch and one that barely holds the rails in place. Higher Locomotive speed does create more force on the moving rails and the spring plunger holding them in place. Check your switches and the ones that move the easiest should be inspected first to see if the plungers are properly entering the notch or if the spring in the plunger has weaken. Stretching the plunger spring slightly may hold the moving rails more securely reducing derailments.






SeabeeBrad
Posts :11 
Joined: 02-07-2010
Mohnton, PA 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
SeabeeBrad replied on Wed, Jan 26 2011 9:09 AM Reply 

Thanks for the advice. When I aquired the switches I disassembled them to clean out the dirt and remove any rust but I never really fiddled with the plunger mechanism.






Flyer guy
Posts :1 
Joined: 03-02-2011 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
Flyer guy replied on Fri, May 20 2011 5:10 PM Reply 

although im only 15, i have decent experience with these trains. my thought is that a stiffer spring fixes many things. I just stiffened the pilot spring on my 356 and it cleared up all my issues with the engine.

I am the highrail highschooler






stebbycentral
Posts :756 
Joined: 12-21-2006 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
stebbycentral replied on Fri, May 20 2011 8:35 PM Reply 


Flyer guy:

although im only 15, i have decent experience with these trains. my thought is that a stiffer spring fixes many things. I just stiffened the pilot spring on my 356 and it cleared up all my issues with the engine.



Obviously, if the wheels are out of guage they will pick the points on the switches, so that is a good place to start. However I think the above suggestion is also a good idea. Initially the pilot wheels on my 302 Atlantic were constantly climbing the outside rails of tight curves. My unit had no spring to hold down the pilot truck, so I solved the issue by installing one. I'm not sure if all of the locomotives Flyer made had pilot springs to start with, but they seem to be necessary for good tracking. The truck springs may have broken, have worn out, or may have been lost during repair/reassembly. So check them out.

"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." Red Green





richhotrain
Posts :3,804 
Joined: 09-26-2004 

Re: REost War AF Steamers Derailing
richhotrain replied on Sat, May 21 2011 5:39 AM Reply 

How refreshing! An American Flyer post - - - even though it is a revival of an older one. LOL

Springs on pilot trucks are common on HO scale and N scale engines but on my AF steamers, I don't have any springs on the pilot trucks. Assuming that the wheels on the pilot trucks are in gauge, the use of weights on the pilot truck should help immensely to hold down the pilot trucks on the track, particularly at higher speeds. You can buy a package of 7 gram automotive brake lead weights at any automotive supply store with double faced tape attached to the lead weight. Slap one of those on the top of the pilot truck and that may well solve the problem.

Rich (HO Train)


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm not sure they look kindly on posting large quantities of copied stuff from other sites, that usually runs into copyright issues.


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## tjcruiser

I don't think it's too much of a worry. To be safe ...

Reck, you might add the specific thread URL so that there's a direct linked reference to the original source.

TJ


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## Reckers

Fair 'nuff: I took your advice, Teej, and added it into the first line of the post! John, your point is well-made and I'm no legal-beagle, but can you actually copywrite it when you didn't write it? The website had a question from one reader/user with answers from other reader/users: I wanted to credit the site for providing, but felt they had no property rights to other people's intellectual-property contributions. What's your take on that?


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## markjs

I don't know how to repair anything regarding my AF steam engines. I have a 290 which always derailed going over one particular switch. I simply turned the engine around and ran it in the opposite direction and had no more problems. Go figure!


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## Reckers

Markjs, it's nice to have you join us! What you described would make sense if the frog (the moving part of the switch that guides the wheels into the curve) was not interacting correctly with the pilot wheels. If the pilot wheels aren't the correct distance apart, they won't follow the curve of the frog. If the frog is too low or the pilot wheels ride too high, the steamer will simply barrel right across the frog instead of following it.


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