# Newbee Questions - Roadbed



## CapeCodFrank

Hi. I am returning to model railroading after a hiatis of about 60 years. I am one of those recent retired guys who has unearthed a box of trains that I had as a kid, and am trying to get them set up for my grandkids. I am not planning anything fancy, but just something a little better than I had as a kid. I'm sure I will have a million questions as I get into this, but here are my first...

I've built a table with a 1/2" plywood top. I would like some recommendations as to what to use, if anything, to cover the top. I have seen a thread about using pink rigid foam, but I'm not thrilled about that. I have seen recommendations on using homosote. Or I could just leave the plywood as is, with some paint. I plan to use some sort of roadbed under the tracks. I'm not sure what to use. I certainly can't afford to buy rubber, cork, or foam. I'm probably going to try to make something, perhaps out of plywood or MDF. I am a reasonable woodworker, with a good shop, and I would rather invest time than money. Anyway, any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'd consider putting some cut rubber underlayment down for roadbed. It'll quiet the tracks and you can cut it to shape and then ballast it for good looks. I don't think you want to sandwich more wood under the rails, no benefit to that that I can see.


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## CapeCodFrank

Thanks John. The manual I got with the trains (circa 1952) describes making the roadbed out of "well seasoned white pine or spruce", covered with "grey slate surfaced roofing paper". The wood sections have a beveled edge. I guess this is to elevate track a bit. I plan on using brads to attach the track to the roadbed. Could you tell me more about rubber underlayment. Is this the stuff one would put under asphalt roof shingles as a moisture barrier?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Actually, the stuff I'm talking about is the underlayment for pre-finished wood floors. You can buy it in rolls, and it would be a lot cheaper than most of the other options like cork. It's anywhere from 1/8" to about 1/4" thick and it's heavy sponge rubber. Places like Home Depot or Lowes will have it.


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## ChopperCharles

The primary benefit of roadbed is to quiet the trains. They're quite loud otherwise. Also, nailing through the roadbed to the wood underneath largely defeats the quieting of the roadbed, so glue instead of nail where you can.

Charles.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Frank -- If I were you, I'd revisit the idea of pink foam. I too have just started visiting this hobby after many years away from it. Seeing what these guys have accomplished using foam has done enough to convince me to go that route. Do some research -- there is plenty of info out there, on this site and many others, showing the use of foam.


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## CapeCodFrank

Charles, I am following you on the noise issue. But I am using the original AF track with those metal feet. I think they were meant to be nailed down. I'm sure there have been many advances since 1952 but I am not sure what to do. It doesn't seem like there is any way to afix the metal to the roadbed using glue or caulk. I could be wrong, however, and perhaps a bead of caulk along the bottom edge of each metal foot would suffice. I suppose I could remove the metal altogether and mount the rails directly to wood or plastic ties. But that seems like a lot of work. I also think I could make a wooden roadbed, glue or caulk it to that rubber underlayment that was suggested. Then, I could nail the metal track feet to my wooden roadbed, but not through to the plywood tabletop. That would isolate the track from the tabletop. Any thoughts on these ideas?


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## CapeCodFrank

Don, thanks for the reply. I don't plan on doing any mountains or scuplting of the foam. It would strickly be a covering for my tabletop. And if I did use it, I still have the issue of how to attach the original AF track with those metal feet to it. I am not sure how to go about that. I would appreciate your thoughts. I do have a lot more research to do, and I plan on attending the next train show in Wilmington, MA in Nov to see how it is done and to talk to the folks there. I have no real timetable on getting this done. I am still in the layout planning stage and trying to get the rust off the track and getting the engines to run.


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## broox

I found acrylic caulk (I think you guys call it latex caulk over there) to be quite good. Even when used in a small amounts, it is suprisingly strong when cured. You dont want to use silicone caulk though, I'm not sure of the reason at the moment, but when I was researching a few months ago that was the recommended product. The upside is that the acrylic caulk comes in a few different colours


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## CapeCodFrank

Thanks, broox. I'll give it a try to see if will hold that metal foot on the AF track. BTW, I see you are from Adelaide. I visited your city twice on business a number of years ago, each trip for a week. Beautiful place. Thanks for your reply.


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## Aflyer

Cape Cod Frank,
Welcome to the forum, and back to the train hobby. I too have resurected the hobby, have some original A/F from 1950-1953, and have bought more on eBay and at various shows.
I also have the Flyer layout books you referenced above. Did you read the page where they stated to use asbestos to make your mountain scenery?. I guess we know better than that today.
There are lots of options for layouts and roadbed these days, one thing to consider is the pink or blue foam, cutout for raised roadbed as was detailed in the old Flyer books. The edges could be beveled, it could be painted with latex paint with sand in it to look like balast, you could also cut out for the metal ties to recess them into the foam if you wanted to. These sections could then be glues to your new table without needing nails or screws that would transfer the sound.
The noise factor people talk about is very real, the plywood kind of makes like a Drum head for the trains. The joy of foam or cork or rubber is the reduction of the drum effect, and you can hear the clicikty clack of the wheels on the rails.
Welcome, and have fun with it,

Aflyer


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Frank -- You mentioned going to the Wilmington show....an avid American Flyer guy will likely be there to sell parts and other items. His name is Doug Peck. He runs Port Lines Hobby online, which by the way sells a bunch of items to keep your Flyers in tip-top shape. He would be an ideal person to discuss this track issue, especially since you plan to be there. If you wish to get your answer sooner, you can email him and he will answer your questions. His email is available on his website here.....check his parts catalog while there too...

http://www.portlines.com/


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Frank -- Just thought of another option....if you're inclined to invest the money, you can still buy the rubber roadbed that fits the old AF track. If you visit train shows, you might find the original Gilbert production. But there is also reproduction rubber roadbed being produced. If unfamiliar with this product, it simply attaches to the ties of your track. It provides a stable, yet cushioned base for the track. However, I would not nail this to your benchwork. This can be glued down with caulk or some other removeable adhesives.


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## CapeCodFrank

Thanks all for the suggestions. I guess I am kind of surprised that I seem to be asking a question that is novel, and yet every person who is into model railroading and has a layout has done something. I guess there are lots of options and the tradeoffs between money / time / realism are different in each case. The one common theme that I now understand is "don't nail it!". And I won't. I did find Port Lines and will definitely see them in Winmington.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, the nails are like noise transmitters.


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## Reckers

CapeCodFrank,
I have used silicone caulking to fasten the black metal crossties with success. It works well for attaching to the pink foam, and I'd also recommend the foam as a good investment. Just as the ground tends to absorb the sound of a passing train, the foam is an improvement over the clatter that plywood or similar products transmit. Incidentally, there are nail-holes in those ties and the bevelled wood roadbed was popular long ago, but the clatter-factor led to the rubber stuff. It's your railroad, though: your decision is the only correct answer.

Best wishes,


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## flyernut

I use AF rubber roadbed.. The most important aspect of it is that I remember it from my youth.


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## Dominion Atlantic

*Roadbed*

Hey Frank,

Here is something I experimented with one time. I took some homosote and ripped it into strips about 3 inches wide. I used a jig (sabre) saw and made a beveled 45 degree cut on each side. I glued that to plywood, and then I nailed my track to it. I painted it grey before I fastened the track, but it held the nails really well. I believe it was about 1/2" thick. In my case the track I used was Atlas HO, but I was trying to replicate the look of HO EZ track. That way I was able to get the raised sub-roadbed look. For S gauge you may want to rip your homosote a little wider, but you should be able to make the calculations without too much trouble. Personally, I would think that it would look better in S gauge than in HO. My woodworking skills aren't the greatest, so you can probably do a lot better. It's an inexpensive way to deaden the sound, gives you something that holds nails well, plus you have that raised roadbed look. Just a suggestion. Let me know if you decide to use it.

Regards,

Dominion Atlantic


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## CapeCodFrank

Thanks for the idea. I may give it a try. My curremt experiment involve making the roadbed out of plywood, as you describe. Then, I am planning on glueing some floor insulation to the bottom, to isolate it from the plywood table. Same basic idea that you came up with. I am heading to a local model train show this Saturday and will be looking for ideas. Just trying to come up with something that isn't too expensive. Thanks again.


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## JMedwick

I am going to revive this very old thread for some layout advice. This weekend I finally got around to building the base for an expanded train board. I have an old board built by my great-grandfather for my mother when she was 5. I am going to redo that board (made of basic plywood and 1x1s with an oval layout) and add on a 4x8 expansion. I roughed out the track design this weekend and built the new 4x8 board (split into two halves so I can take it up and down). 

Now I am noodling over what to put the track on to reduce noise. From the guidance above, it sounds like the biggest thing is to not nail or screw the track into the boards. My plan was to use some foam drawer liner glued to the wood, then with a layer of felt glued on top of that, with cork glued in place under the tracks. Are there any other materials folks have used underneath to help improve the sound? In the thread above, folks recommended attaching the old AF track using glue. Any concerns about damaging the track by doing that?


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## AmFlyer

A couple of points regarding aspects of Gilbert track. First, stating the obvious it is two rail, second the rail is formed from a relatively heavy gauge steel that gives the rail stiffness. These are two key differences from Lionel track. The Gilbert track has thick paper insulators between both rails and the ties, decoupling them for sound transmission as well as preventing electrical shorts. So nailing the ties does not transmit the sound to the plywood as Lionel track does. Also there is no center pickup roller eliminating a big sound source.
The quietest installation is to use the Gilbert or Johnson repro rubber roadbed. Second is to cover the table with any thin carpeting that has a rubberized backing. Cork works but it can be an unnecessary PITA to cut and install. Do not use glue or caulking to hold down the Gilbert track. It will be a major pain to clean it off if you make any changes.
The thin rubber drawer liner can be used. I use it under the Cable boxes that still have rotating hard discs in them, it makes a big difference in the sound transmission.
I use 1/2" foam insulation panels on my Christmas layouts to simulate snow, it does not deaden the sound but it looks nice.


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## mopac

I would love to use the pink or blue 4X8 foam. No good way to secure Gilbert track to it. And the foam will
not hold nails. The pink or blue foam is a very good sound insulating material. I just do not thnk it would work
for Gilbert track.

The rubber roadbed that fits Gilbert track looks really good and will insulate sound. Problem is cost. Most of
it that I see is $4.00 a section. A section fits one piece of Gilbert track. Too much for me.

I am leaning towards using cork made by Midwest Cork. They make it for HO scale and O scale. No S scale.
Comes in 3 ft sections. It is 3/16" thick. Each section is cut at an angle right down the middle. You pull it apart
and you have 2 pieces with a beveled edge. Beveled edge goes to the outside for contoured roadbed look. It
takes 2 pieces laid side by side to form the roadbed. Ho would be too narrow. O would be too wide. My thought
is to buy HO and O. Laid side by side should be just right. Not gong to use a bunch of nails. Just enough to keep track from sliding around. I seen it used unpainted, just raw cork, but I think some paint would look better. Cost is
around 30.00 a box of 24 count.
Gilbert track just hard to do much with.


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## AmFlyer

One HO piece against an O gauge piece is how to do it. There used to be rubber ties made for S gauge. Two fit between each pair of metal ties. They worked great and looked good but I have not seen them in a while. They were far cheaper than the rubber roadbed.


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## AFGP9

CapeCodFrank and JMedwick and Mopac, allow me to add my two cents worth to the track roadbed discussion. First NEVER nail! As GJR said, nothing but a noise transferring agent. Secondly, I can not recommend the pink/blue/green sheets of foam enough. The color doesn't matter. All the same. Over my many layout years I have used different colors depending where I bought the foam board and who had what on hand. It will solve all your problems. If you can't haul a full sheet in your vehicle, have the box store cut it in two.
Secondly 2" of foam is best. If you can't get a 2" piece, just get 2 1" sheets and glue them together. Liquid Nails spread out with a wide trowel works great. Just make sure you weight the foam board and leave over night. I used a bunch of train magazines. Why 2" you might ask? In case you want to add below track level details. Just dig into the foam board. The foam board makes it easy to plant trees as well.
To fasten the track down, you will need some ballast, actually a lot, and some thinned with water Elmer's glue. 2 parts water, 1 part glue and one of those ketchup squeeze bottles to put the glue mixture in. Now all you do is lay your track the way you want it, cover the track and the sides with the ballast, covering the ends of the AF track hollow ties, then add your glue mixture. You should dribble dish soap over the ballast before adding the glue. The soap will draw the glue down into the ballast. As far as ballast goes, you can buy commercial grade or do a search on You Tube on what others have used as a substitute that may be cheaper. Kitty litter for sidings, fish tank gravel can be found in different sizes and can be bought in a large amount cheaply. Also I have seen a quart container of ballast for $11 on eBay.
What I have just described is the way I did my layout and other past ones. My current layout is 10 years old. Nothing moves. The glue will harden and keep the track from moving. If homosote or any other similar sub base is laid under the track, you will get a raised track look which is what you want. Just remember to cut the strips a little wider than the track. Shape the ballast edges at an angle before gluing to give the beveled sides look. As with the real RR, all sidings should be below main line level and not have the sub track base under them since they will prototypically have a downward slant from the diverging leg of the track switch with the siding track glued directly to the foam board with the ballast. There will be a small gap under the track as it bends downward from the main line track which you can fill with the ballast.
All and all this layout track laying method works great. As I said, I have used this method more than once in my many years with American Flyer S gauge trains. One thing I forgot was that I made extra wood ties and painted them to go under the AF track. It takes 4 per track section. They are held in place by the ballast. Those added ties will cut down on the amount of ballast you will need.
Hope this helps your decision. It really isn't that expensive and looks good when done. I have posted pictures of my track here on the forum but that was a while back. You can make good looking AF track. As Tom said there is (was) a company that makes rubber ties as well which I have also used when I added on to my layout. I'll have to find the name and post it here for you guys.
Mopac, that O gauge cork roadbed you mentioned is just what I used and from the same company. After it is ballasted it looks just fine. Take a look at the real thing. The ballast is out past the rails about 6 feet on ether side so the O gauge cork works just fine. 
I hate to disagree with Tom but I had no problem removing track using my ballasting and track fastening method. Yes some ballast does stick but no big deal. It comes off with no effort. 

Kenny


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## AmFlyer

Kenny, I never commented on the permanent looking ballast method you use. Dilute white glue with ballast should come off the ties easily. I said not to glue down the ties with something like construction adhesive or glue formulated caulking. 
I can verify that carefully tacking Gilbert track to 1/2" plywood does not increase the noise level. I use small brads, not nails, and do not make them tight against the top of the ties. It allows very slight movement but keeps the track aligned so no derailments or unwanted uncoupling. I was building seasonal, not permanent layouts. The only permanent layout was in a basement in a house in Wheaton. That was built with GarGraves flex. Got a case of it surprisingly cheap at the DuPage train show, the same price per foot as Gilbert straight track was selling for at the time. It was easy to bend and trim the rail ends. It made for a great running layout in a short amount of time. Never got around to ballasting it because we moved again. That was our last house with a basement.


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## mopac

I would love to use Gargraves. Wood ties and lots more of them looks much more
real than Gilbert ever could, Just too cheap to buy the amount I would need. At least
30 some feet times 4 loops. 120 some feet would not be cheap. Plus, they don't make
a 45 degree crossover I need.


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## AmFlyer

Charles Ro has GarGraves flex track new priced at $2.50/foot. Cheaper than anything else but used Gilbert track. As we talked before, only Lionel Fastrack has a 45deg crossing and that is pretty expensive.


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## mopac

2.50 a foot is not that bad. May have to look into it. 300.00 would be a lot for track.
I will not be building a show piece like yours.
I bought a FasTrack 45 degree and 4 transition
pieces. It would probably work with Gargraves. Charles Ro shop went through my ZW.
They also installed a modern circuit breaker. Seller had it done before I bought it.


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## JMedwick

Thanks for all the suggestions. I want a refreshed and larger layout, but I am not patient enough to do any heavy detailed modeling. Does the Elmers glue/ ballast idea work even if the train boards will be taken up at times and stored vertically? Does the track fall off?


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## AmFlyer

Mopac, the transition pieces work with GarGraves. One nice thing about GarGraves flex is it can be powered by slipping 1/4" spade lugs up into the bottom of the rail. I bought 1/4" brass strip, cut it into 2" sections and then slipped those into the bottom of the rail. Then used 1/4" female spade lugs to connect the wire to the brass strips under the layout.
JMedwick, I never built a layout using the materials and techniques Kenny uses. From my experience the white glue will hold the track with the layout stored on edge if it bonds to the foam as well as it bonds to plywood. I use the rubber roadbed when I build a layout with Gilbert track.


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## JMedwick

^how do you affix the rubber roadbed?


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## AmFlyer

With the rubber roadbed just nail through the holes in the ties. Typically two per track section is adequate.


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## AFGP9

JMedwick said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions. I want a refreshed and larger layout, but I am not patient enough to do any heavy detailed modeling. Does the Elmers glue/ ballast idea work even if the train boards will be taken up at times and stored vertically? Does the track fall off?


I wouldn't think the glued ballast would survive that kind of movement. The method I use and suggested is meant for a permanent built layout. While using the Elmer's to glue ballast and hold the track works very well, it can also be removed without much effort, so no I wouldn't use it in the way you mentioned. If the glued ballast came loose, fell off from jarring with movement, then yes the track would fall off since the ballast is the only thing holding the track.

Kenny


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## AFGP9

AmFlyer said:


> Kenny, I never commented on the permanent looking ballast method you use. Dilute white glue with ballast should come off the ties easily. I said not to glue down the ties with something like construction adhesive or glue formulated caulking.
> I can verify that carefully tacking Gilbert track to 1/2" plywood does not increase the noise level. I use small brads, not nails, and do not make them tight against the top of the ties. It allows very slight movement but keeps the track aligned so no derailments or unwanted uncoupling. I was building seasonal, not permanent layouts. The only permanent layout was in a basement in a house in Wheaton. That was built with GarGraves flex. Got a case of it surprisingly cheap at the DuPage train show, the same price per foot as Gilbert straight track was selling for at the time. It was easy to bend and trim the rail ends. It made for a great running layout in a short amount of time. Never got around to ballasting it because we moved again. That was our last house with a basement.


Sorry Tom, I missed the part where you said not to glue the track down. 
Kenny


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## cramden

I have always used rubber roadbed since the layout Dad built had it. I follow Gilbert's advice in the instruction manual and use small carpet or upholstery tacks( tried staples but they didn't hold well) into the edges of the roadbed or in the center, one at each end. Most times I only need to use them on curves. They don't really hurt the roadbed and it eliminates any noise transfer that may occur by using the tie holes. You can find black colored tacks or a dab of gray paint if you use that color roadbed to blend the tack into the roadbed.


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## AFGP9

In the discussion concerning AF track and how to fasten it down, I mentioned that I had used some rubber added ties but didn't remember where I got them. Today I found the invoice. It is dated 3/12/2007. The company name is Three R Plastics, Inc. No web address but if you Google the name you will get several suppliers including Amazon!! The invoice I have has only a phone number. I bought mine directly from the company. 815-675-0844. Now don't let the description of the ties throw you. It says they are for O gauge. All I know is they are a match for the original AF track ties in size. Either black or brown, 250 quantity each color. I got a batch of both. Back then I paid $30 for each bag. Today Amazon shows them at $58 for a bag of 250. Quite a price jump. I'd call the company and maybe they still sell direct. If these are used and the ballast is applied properly it will be hard to tell the difference between the original Flyer ties and these to the casual observer. Or anyone for that matter.

Kenny


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## AmFlyer

Thanks Kenny. I am more impressed you found the invoice than the rubber ties. Those rubber ties reduce the amount of ballast needed by half.


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## AFGP9

I was very surprised to find that invoice. The things you find when you are looking for something else! Yes when those ties are used you do use less ballast as I pointed out in my description of the method I used for holding the AF track in place. 

Kenny


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