# How to Build a Layout Without Really Planning



## feldon30

After having visited Miniature Wunderland in Hamburg, a friend and I decided we seriously wanted to build a train layout. We are both technically minded so we intend to introduce a fair amount of computer automation although we both still like manual controls. Some things we knew we wanted:

While not a modular layout (the tables cannot be rearranged), the intention was to have a layout that can be broken down and moved. After hearing horror stories of using a Sawzall or chainsaw to try to move established layouts, we wanted something that could, with difficulty (cutting flex track, etc.), be disassembled and moved.
Make the most effective use of a 21 x 23 room.
Emphasize yard and switching operations.
Allow for a helix to reach an upper level as well as a slope down to reach a centrally located staging yard
DCC (Digitrax)
Signaling Districts and Block Occupancy
Mainline switched by Tortoises, either via computer control or manual pushbutton panels. Yards utilize hand throws.

This layout would not be possible without a massive amount of help from friends in the local club.

The first 4x2 module:









The first drawing:









The current working diagram of the lower level:


















The wiring "bucket":










Everything color-coded, neat and clean. Every yard has its own color pair. Drops every 3 feet and mainline switches are Electrofrogs with the frog powered by the Tortoise:










A bird's eye view:










So at this point you're asking yourself "How long did you spend planning the yards, the cities, all the industries, etc.?" and the answer will likely scare you, as we started building with only a rough idea of what the yards would be and little to no plan for the industries. Why?

We worked out a layout that takes advantage of the most space in the room, allows two people to easily pass each other at the narrowest points (minimum space between tables is 30"), and to allow for 3 lower level yards and 1 upper level yard. We talked to several people who have layouts large and small and we've also operated at a few layouts. In the end, we found that you'll never recreate the prototype to a point where it's instantly recognizable, however you can easily make things claustrophobic or clunky to operate. We decided to have wide walkways and still have three to four yards plus a staging yard which will allow us to tinker with a few people or have a full op session with as many as 14 people.

Neither of us has a strong emotional bond to a specific geographic area, era, or specific industries, although we're hoping to transplant a lot of details from the S.E. Pennsylvania area into this layout and provide points of interest that someone from this area would pick it up. 

After many discussions and debates between the Plywood vs. Foam camps, we decided to go with plywood decking. We can still add elevation with foam, plaster cloth and other materials and, if need be, remove plywood to go subterranean. The plywood is substantially quieter than foam and requires fewer supports underneath. Despite the availability of wire cutter tools, I did not find the ability to sculpt foam to be an advantage.










We've got mainline all the way around and one yard pretty much finished aside from industries.



















I like switching puzzles, so we're making the yards not too large and with limited spurs so that you have to think how best to move your stock around efficiently without getting "stuck" or tying up the mainline too much. Everything is just pinned down and easily moveable. Indeed we have already re-profiled two curves which were causing some problems due to being too sharp.

A 1" gap was left in the center of the two main peninsulas to allow for a second level which will be supported by these:










Testing a Tortoise and Switchit:










A switch panel, total cost about $4 including the cut piece of Lexan:










Working perfectly either by pressing the contact buttons:










or from JMRI (either on the PC or from a cell phone):










This will likely be the trickiest yard to plan because it has entry points into the Helix and Staging. We're a bit stalled until I dream up the industries and how this yard will be laid out:










We ordered a bunch of turnouts, but we can also print out turnouts from Anyrail and then just mock them into position until we find something that makes sense.

We did not intend to start on the Helix at all until 2016 but Santa (really our two best friends who worked their butts off) changed our plans...


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## tjcruiser

Wow ... from napkin sketch to implementation-in-the-works, this looks like a fabulous layout. Do keep us posted on progress!

TJ


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## wvgca

looks nice and clean, wish i still had that much ambition ....


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## Fire21

Carpentry, wiring, computerization, complex track laying...all beyond my skills!! 

Nice room, nice space usage, nice long runs. :appl:


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## DonR

Gasp, a space most of us could only dream of.

You guys are fortunate and you are certainly using
that space to great advantage.

Like your way of thinking and planning for switching. It
can be great operating fun, especially if you engineer
in spurs for industries that are, shall we say, awkward
to access. Be sure to include some with more than
one industry on a spur, necessitating extra movements.
Another interesting switching situation that is easy
to add to a layout, spurs that require a loco to push
a car in with the front of the loco. This also generally
requires a 'run around' or passing siding so the
loco can get on the 'other side' of the car.

Keep up the good work.


don

Don


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## feldon30

*tj*, *wvcga*, *Fire21*, and *DonR*,

Thank you for the kind words.

We'll definitely do a few cases of 2 industries on a single spur. The layout we operate every Monday night has several of these and it makes for lots of shuffling to get cars to the right places!

We're thinking about a runaround or spur but have to see how it will affect districts. We're now at a point where I really need to plan things out before we can go too much further!


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## Dave Sams

WOW WOW WOW

When I first saw the title to your post, I thought you were going to build my way.......let's go this direction until I run out of room, then that-a-way to fit the curves etc.

It's nice to have friends who like to build.

One question, you said plywood was substantially quieter than foam. I thought it was the other way around.


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## feldon30

Designing a train layout is like being pulled in all directions. On one hand, there is the temptation to overthink it and try to plan for everything to avoid spending money on things you end up not using. On the other hand, there's the temptation to go stumbling in with no plan and then have to make lots of changes. I'm trying to find a middle ground and I think we've gotten damned lucky so far. 

I've already had a few "I wish I'd done this completely differently" moments but then I realize I can put things in someplace else. I'm not planning to do ANY scenery this year. Industries will be paperboard/cardboard mockups and we'll do lots of playtesting before we start glueing or ballasting anything!

My understanding is, plywood's rigidity causes it to "deaden" the sound, where as the amount of airspaces in foam cause it to reverberate with the sound. I haven't done a lot of testing though.


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## Dave Sams

My table is 1/2" foundwherever plywood and I have 3/4" Baltic birch hanging from the ceiling. The hangers are 3/4" Baltic birch "C" shaped hangers screwed to the plaster ceiling in my basement. The track is 031 screwed to the baltic birch. The table has 027 screwed to the foundwherever.

You can hear the ceiling train anywhere in our ranch house, and the table is quite loud also.

Just the way I wanted it.


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## hokie1525

For a newbie like me...

Can you explain the wiring for the button switches? Is the brown wire the neutral? How do you wire the LEDs? Where did you get the buttons/LEDs? Radio Shack?

Thanks!


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## feldon30

hokie1525 said:


> For a newbie like me...
> 
> Can you explain the wiring for the button switches? Is the brown wire the neutral? How do you wire the LEDs? Where did you get the buttons/LEDs? Radio Shack?
> 
> Thanks!


We looked at the Digitrax option (DS64), but we ended up going with *NCE Switchit* stationary decoders. Each Switchit mk2 lets us control two Tortoises and power the frog on Peco turnouts.

Rather than relying on track power, we ended up dedicating one output a Digitrax PM42 circuit breaker to power all our Switchits so that power cannot be interrupted by a short anywhere on the layout. We always want to be able to throw turnouts, _especially in the case of a mainline short_!

Here's my wiring diagram for one Switchit, two LEDs, and one Tortoise:









"Short" and "Long" in this case refer to the short and long pins on the green and red LEDs. Anyone with an electrical engineering degree or who has spent more than 5 minutes studying the topic would know these pins are called anode and cathode.  Anyway, it felt a little strange that a single wire from the Switchit to the two LEDs to the Tortoise would all work, but it does. 

As for how the pushbutton switches work with the Switchit, it has dedicated terminal posts just for that. If you look on the right side of the picture below, from the bottom up, you've got grey/black which is our dedicated power. Then the next 6 spots are our momentary red and green switches...









To wire the pushbutton switches, we just used 4 conductor telephone wire. Orange goes to one, Blue goes to the other, and Brown is common. As you can see in the picture, I had to make a little jumper:










The actual pushbuttons were from MCM and I got them for $1.50 each. I just looked and they don't have those part numbers anymore. These buttons have a real heft to them and feel like they'd last thousands of button presses. One option would be to go with self-illuminated SPST buttons, so you could just use that and skip the separate LED (which can be tricky to mount). Does Radio Shack even carry switches and LEDs anymore?

We are using Peco Electrofrogs which means the frog is powered. The frog needs to either receive Rail A or Rail B power depending on the direction of the turnout. Fortunately Tortoises are already setup to provide this:









Let me know if you have any more questions. I need to post pictures of the Helix progress!


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## Chet

I like it a lot. The idea is quite similar to my layout which I started over 25 years ago, but without any help. I am also interested in switching and have a point to point layout with a yard and engine facility at each end. I do have three hidden staging tracks which will allow for continuous running, but I very seldom use the hidden tracks for this. 

I naver drew out a track plan but did have a plan on what I wanted to do. I chose to model the area I live in set in 1957 as I really like steam. I have 20+ industries on the layout, some of them actual businesses that existed and some are ones that could have been. 

I still operate DC only. I had considered DCC, but being that I am a lone operator and in normal circumstances only run one locomotive at a time. I couldn't see the expense of DCC and the time and effort of changing over my older locomotives for DCC operation. 

As a lone operator it can take as long as 2 or more hours to bring a train in from hidden staging, which connects to either the Northern Pacific or Milwaukee road into a yard at either end of the layout, break it down, and make up a local train to services along the main line. 

Looks like you have a very interesting layout and I will have to follow your progress. Looking good. :appl:


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## feldon30

That's incredibly impressive that you built that yourself and with no plans (or option?) of operations by others. We're building such a layout as much for ourselves as with the intention that we can have operations a few times a year.


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## Chet

feldon30 said:


> That's incredibly impressive that you built that yourself and with no plans (or option?) of operations by others. We're building such a layout as much for ourselves as with the intention that we can have operations a few times a year.


I really didn't have a choice as I live in a rather rural area of Montana and the only other local modeler unfortunately passed away years back. I knew which industries that were either actually in the area or could have existed at the time and went from there, using actual town names and industries in the towns. 

I started handlaying the track and turnouts in code 70, mainly because at the time it was started, over 25 years ago bucks for the hobby were scarce with a couple of young kids in the house. The layout was completed, or close to it using Shinohara code 70 turnouts and flex track. Another problem I had is that there are no decent hobby shops around for hundreds of miles. I probably lost about six to eight years of building time due to this until e-retailers came on the internet. 

Even with the lost time and lack of supplies it has kept m interest in the hobby and also kept me busy. I grew up with relatives working on both the Milwaukee Road and the Northern Pacific and when I was a kid spent countless hours riding in the cabs on both railroads. Needless to say, I was hooked on trains.


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## FishTruck

Wow! Stuck in "analysis paralysis" myself... you have motivated me that at some point, I need to just build it.


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## sstlaure

Very cool.....can't wait to start designing my new layout. My wife thinks I'm crazy to consider tearing everything I already have done up to just do it again.....but you don't know what you REALLY want until you use it.


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## Cobratrooper11

that layout looks like it is going to be impressive! can't wait to see more done!


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