# For want of a nail



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

There is an old story that starts: “For want of a nail, a shoe was lost. For want of a shoe, a horse was lost . . .” etc. I was reminded of this story when I think of my predicament with a recent purchase. I recently saw a pilot version of a scale Pennsylvania S2 Turbine on sale on another forum. I didn’t have an S2 in my stable and always like that engine. I wanted a scale version but I wasn’t looking for a pilot engine. However, the price was right and it was a beautiful engine, so I made an offer. I bought the engine and transferred the money to the seller. When the engine arrived, I eagerly opened the box. Three wheel sets, one from the leading truck and two from the rear truck fell to the floor as I unwrapped the engine. When I looked to replace the wheel sets, I noticed one bearing from each wheelset was missing. After further inspection, I found some plastic fragments from the bearing. My first thought was that this shouldn’t be too hard to fix. The seller seemed on the level and had been selling on the forum often. So I looked up the engine on the Lionel website. The engine was from the 2015 Signature Catalog. It had not been long since it was delivered. I found the exploded diagram and the bearings were $0.80 each. The bearings were listed as not in stock. I called Lionel. The person from the parts department told me they weren’t in stock, there were no comparable parts that I could use instead and she didn’t expect that they would get any more. She told me that for Legacy Engines they usually ordered a year’s worth of parts and no more. The MSRP on this engine is $1,299.99. For want of an $0.80 part I have an expensive boat anchor. I contacted the seller and told him the engine arrived broken and I wanted a refund. I didn’t know if it was shipped broken or if it broke in transit but either way I had no part in the cause of the problem and he advertised the engine as a fully working model. The seller told me the sale was “as is” and I was out of luck. After a few emails back and forth, the seller stopped answering my emails. Maybe I should have named this posting “Buyer Beware”. So what are my choices? I could sue him in small claims court. I could eat the loss (not my preferred option). Or I could try to fix the engine. The part looks pretty simple. I have never done anything like it before but I think I can make a bearing out of brass. I’m going to try that route. I am open to any other suggestions anyone might have. “All for the want of an $0.80 plastic bushing”. Wish me luck.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

As I understand it, although many fell out, you are short two bearings - and have all the others. I have written this based on that.
First, I've have had them fall out. I've used Locktite or glue to hold them in when they insist on coming loose: generally once out they don't want to say in. 

Two solutions for the two bearings you don't have:
*1) If it were me I would somehow make the parts myself*. I'm not sure how but I have made bearings before and they worked. I can't tell you exactly how I'd do this one because I'd figure it out as I went along. I CAN tell you that my first step would be to carefully install all but that one axle - making the missing azle the middle one in the truck. I would then run the loco and making sure nothing else is wrong with the truck (it's warped and that's why the bearings came out, etc) or the loco. The only thing worse than things are now would be fixing this only to discover . . . 
I would make the new bearings our of sheet, block, or tube styrene, etc., figuring it would be a long process involving lots of trials, doing them initially with the pilot off the loco and just seeing if I can get all three azles to roll in the truck well, etc. but this is very doable. 
*2) This sounds like exactly what 3-D printers are for. * You simply have to find someone who has one and knows how to use it well. They might charge money, but . . . it would not surprise me if there are people set up in this business. I don't know though. 

And this brings up a question. * Why doesn't Lionel have a 3-D printer for parts like this?* At the industrial level there are printers that even make metal parts. They could keep just about every part they have ever made "in inventory." Dumb not to, frankly.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Here, I found this 3-D printing service with one Google. I have no idea if . . . 

https://www.xometry.com/3d-printing...B5MN13NaH3xQgcn9aDcM1CmGKEXM821SuIaAv_18P8HAQ

but if it does work out for you (or not, come to think of it), please come back and post your experience. That would help this forum a lot.!!

Thanks and good luck.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Thanks Lee. I am missing three bearings. I have pieces of broken bearings but no complete bearing for the three that are missing. The picture of the bearing is from the Lionel parts list. I will look into the 3D model. I'll have to create a cad drawing for the outfit that you posted the link for. I might be able to get one of the mechanical guys at work to help me. I'll certainly keep you posted whatever I decide.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wow, bad luck, hope it works out for you. It's a nice peice, too bad the seller isn't a stand up guy. I'd post his name so no one else does business with them. If it was a good price they probably were aware of the problem and checked into fixing it. Making you hold the boat anchor.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Pat, this service I found (first on the Google hit list, no reason it is the best) or another might be able to just reproduct a part. In other words, you send them one and ask them to make, say, five. They laser scan it and then print five more and return all six to you!. 

Worth checking.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Pat, another option would be to use another bearing. No guarantees it will fit though. Important dimensions are flange width (same or wider OK). Distance the bearing protudes from the truck frame (somewhat critical), and axle diameter, (same or smaller).
Go to lionelsupport.com, search on replacement parts (not product number) for "axle bearing".

Here is an example of one in stock. There a few more that are similar.










Pete


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Wow, Pat! That's a bummer! I would be horrified if I sold an engine and the buyer reported damage like this upon opening the package. I certainly would buy it back including shipping. Now if time had passed, then that would be different.

In your situation, I would do just what you are doing. I hope you get new bearings soon. Such a nice locomotive, and you are such a nice guy!


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## 89Suburban (Jan 4, 2017)

There is a member on this site the does 3D printing and seem to know his stuff, maybe he can help?


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Your situation can be fustrating & aggravating. I hope you are able to solve your problems.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Nice looking engine Pat. Good luck. The S2 axles look like a lot like standard MPC era axles. Might be worth a try to take a plastic truck from MPC era rolling stock and use a razor knife/Dremel to fashion bearings that will fit in the S2 trucks.


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## HeyChris (Jan 23, 2017)

Lee Willis said:


> ..... * Why doesn't Lionel have a 3-D printer for parts like this?* At the industrial level there are printers that even make metal parts. They could keep just about every part they have ever made "in inventory." Dumb not to, frankly.


 ^^^^^ Agreed.

Sent from my Non-Zack Morris phone


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

My question is why do they keep making bearings out of this poor substitute plastic? Delrin would be ideal and I doubt would break like these. Its pretty tough. Looking at the plastic axle bearing replacement parts, more than half are out of stock and some for fairly new engines. That tells me a lot are breaking.
I am beginning to look at used Lionel engines like MTH PS1 engines. Assume they are broken and price them with the assumption they are going to need repair.

BTW Pat, I see Nicholas Smith has this engine painted in stock on sale.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd probably go the route of trying to adapt another similar bearing to the truck. I'd also call Lionel and press them a little.

I suspect the path of least resistance is to simply buy the trailing truck that has six of those bearings in it for $45 and rob that to fix your pilot truck. They have it listed as available.









Legacy S2 Turbine Trailing Truck


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Such a beautiful engine but man I'm sorry to hear of these problems. Do you think other Lionel repair shops would have these in stock?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

balidas said:


> Such a beautiful engine but man I'm sorry to hear of these problems. Do you think other Lionel repair shops would have these in stock?


See the post right above yours, there is a ready solution to the issue.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I really think that's the best solution. $45 seems like much less than 3-D printing would cost.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Shame on Lionel for not having parts for a engine that go for that price.:smilie_daumenneg: That means when you buy a high end engine the parts are only available for a short time. 

I think gunrunnerjohn's post is the way to go. I also think that seller should be flogged. Unfortunately, buying from someone you don't know is a leap of faith.

Pat, I think you'll get it fixed. There are a lot of friends here who can help you one way or another. We are all in your corner.


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## mikew (Jun 19, 2015)

I would look at the standard plastic bearings like the ones you can easily order for the junior berk and see if they can be modified to fit and then glued in place.

I would also name and shame or at least tell your story on the "other forum" where you saw the advert so that readers can work out who it is!

MIKE!!


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Pat, This will be interesting. An engineer like you with the help of others will "git her done". I am surprised at Lionel's limited parts.

3D is a good idea but considering the size and location of that bearing I am inclined, like you, to make it out of brass, because you could adjust and tinker as you go to get it right.

That engine is a beauty.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Interesting, isn't it, that Lionel does not have the bearings in stock but does have the entire truck as a part in stock?

Reminds me of Audi. About twelve years ago I had an S4 that had a slipping transmission - fortunately it was just under the mileage limit on warranty! Anyway, I asked the service manager if they had parts in stock to repair it and he said "No, we never keep parts for Audi transmissions, but we have complete new ones in stock." He informed me I would get an all new transmission. When I asked why, his answer was simply. "Because you really can't ever fix them right once they break." 

Maybe its the same with Lionel here, although the bearings I replaced, although a #@!!%&**! PITA to position well and convince to stay in tight, have worked so far . . .


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Wood said:


> Pat, This will be interesting. An engineer like you with the help of others will "git her done". I am surprised at Lionel's limited parts.
> 
> 3D is a good idea but considering the size and location of that bearing I am inclined, like you, to make it out of brass, because you could adjust and tinker as you go to get it right.
> 
> That engine is a beauty.


That's what I'm thinking. I wonder if the weight of the engine over time will be too much for the plastic bearings.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

You bought a 'running' loco 'as is'. But, it wasn't running.

I sell stuff 'as is' all the time, but if someone contacts me, I work it out with them, usually with a partial refund. If they absolutely want to return, then I take it back. That's how I deal with sales and that's how I expect to be dealt with in return. It doesn't always work out that way, but it should.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Actually its not that much of a mystery. Lionel does not get extra parts when they make trains. Its my understanding that its not so much that Lionel doesn't want spare parts but the Chinese are reluctant to offer them. 
In any event the parts you see on Lionel's website are cannibalized from complete engines. Hard to imagine but thats the source. I remember walking through Lionel's repair facility in Ohio and seeing scores of starter set 0-8-0s on the shelves in various offices in various states of disrepair. 
If Lionel took these trucks apart for the bearings what would they do with the remaining wheelsets and truck frames? I suspect little call for those parts.
Just another argument for moving production back to the US.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Buy the truck before it's gone and there is no source of parts! 

I can't even imagine trying to create these with 3D printing or hacking other plastic bearings is a worthwhile endeavor. Grab the part and move on.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Thanks guys for all your inputs. John, you're the man. I looked at buying trucks but the pilot and trailing truck for the pilot engine was out of stock too. I didn't think of looking for painted trucks. hwell: I will order the truck and use the bearings. 

Tom, the engine was advertised as "running". The words "as is" didn't come up until I reported it broken.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

PatKn said:


> Tom, the engine was advertised as "running". The words "as is" didn't come up until I reported it broken.


The guy has zero integrity. hwell:


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## mike kennedy (Sep 30, 2013)

who is this guy? I want to avoid him.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I just ordered the truck. I'll let you know how I make out when it comes in. 

The guy goes as mwax516. His name is Michael Wax. He has an add now on OGR for legacy Big Boy and a J. You should not buy from this guy unless you are willing to take "as is".


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Shouldn't be a big issue to extract the plastic bearings from the truck, and you have extras in case you break one. 

If you could wait until the half-price sale in the fall, it would be even cheaper.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

I would make new bearings out of wood.

Cheap, easy to do, and, they will never wear out.....

My preferred wood for small bearings is Popsicle sticks....

Glue a few together to get a piece large enough to cut the bearing to the shape you need....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

HUH? I'm not seeing this work for creating something like this.










What have you been sniffing?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Actually wood bearings continue to be used today. Maple is a common material and likely what popsicle sticks are made of. 
Some here may have heard of Ernest "Mooney" Warther, who ranks with some of the best wood carvers ever. He made dozens of steam locomotives made of wood and ivory. Some have been placed on roller stands and their wheels have been turning for decades.

Google his name to see more of his work. Here is his Big Boy.










Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, I stand by my comment, trying to make that bearing with a Popsicle stick seems to be an exercise in futility. Of course, one of you enterprising guys can make Pat his bearings and save him about $55, but I'm not going to hold my breath.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Wood wouldn't be my first choice, just saying it could be done. If I were going to machine them I would use brass but before doing that I would try making some resin castings. Probably not as tough as the plastic that broke but would be good enough to hold the wheels in place and even allow the engine to be run. 
I say that because I already have the materials but given the materials cost as much as that truck I wasn't going to suggest that.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The plastic bearing also has to deform a bit as you latch it into the truck, so the brass would be problematic. 

It might be "possible", but IMO it sure isn't advisable.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Pat glad that you have a solution.

Reading here has been interesting. Plenty of ideas.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Aircraft Carriers, and, Nuclear Submarines use wooden propshaft bearings, it's the only thing that works in a seawater/bilge environment.....

I build some of my slot cars out of Popsicle sticks, and, run the drive axles direct on the wood. Motors turn 20K, geared 3:1, so, axle is spinning a little over 6K. I have some cars that are over 20 years old, with dozens of hours on them, and, showing not the slightest sign of wear. Similar cars with proper bronze bushings, I would have replaced them3 or 4 times because of the wear......

Not a great pic, but here's P Stick chassis number 2, probably has over 100 hours on it, been around the world twice in proxy races, and, still tight as the day I built it..


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

After looking at the pics of the truck, wheels, and, bearing, it looks like a standard top hat style flanged bushing would work fine. I don't think all that extra plastic is necessary.

Easily made with a piece of dowel in a drill press, or, even a hand drill held in a vice...


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

You willing to bet a $1,900 engine on that?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Absolutely....., would you risk a 1900.00 loco with plastic bearings, of course you would, Oh, wait, look, they broke...

I would even use them for main drive axles, except, they don't conduct electricity... But, physically, and reliably, they would work fine.....

I your Ma had a wringer washer, the ringer rollers had wood bearings, and, they sustained pretty heavy loads in a nasty wet environment....

Old water wheels, Dutch windmills, all wooden bearings.

Ya just gotta think outside the box....


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Here's just one example of a current wood bearing manufacturer

Quote from their site "Rock-maple plain bearings can tolerate higher shaft speeds and loads than their plastic counterparts."


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

How would you shape a bearing that small for that tight of a space? Pat needs to replace several which means they would have to be exact.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

DennyM said:


> How would you shape a bearing that small for that tight of a space? Pat needs to replace several which means they would have to be exact.


Denny, you wouldn't have to create that exact shape. The important dimensions are the width and thickness of the flange which fits into the truck sideframe groove and the shape and depth of the axle hole. 
I would cut a piece of brass stock or lignum vitae or ebony wood to the width of the flange and thickness from the back of the flange to the end of the axle hole. Then mill along each side to create the flange. If you looked at a cross section it would look like a top hat. Then use a taper milling cutter of the proper angle and bore your holes. You could do this before cutting each bearing off your strip.
The piece along the bottom that sets the height is not important but if brass was used a piece of shim stock could be soldered on. If you used wood simply use CA or epoxy to hold it in place. Its not going to break so no need to make it removeable.

All this obviated because the truck is available but if no bearing or truck could be had what would you do? Leave it on the shelf or make a part? I would do the latter.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BWA said:


> After looking at the pics of the truck, wheels, and, bearing, it looks like a standard top hat style flanged bushing would work fine. I don't think all that extra plastic is necessary.
> 
> Easily made with a piece of dowel in a drill press, or, even a hand drill held in a vice...


Prove us wrong, make the bearings. :laugh:


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Come on Pat... You've been challenged. Haha.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Somebody send me a truck, I'll gladly repair it (for free) with wooden bearings.....


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Me thinks the gauntlet has been thrown.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Boy, this really has gotten interesting. Thanks all for your inputs and comments. I appreciate all of them. BWA, thank you for your generous offer. I'm tempted to send you the trucks (2 bearings broke from one and one broke from the other) just to see how the wood bearings would work. However, I have the truck on order and will try that solution first. If somehow it doesn't work I may reconsider your generous offer.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

Pat, I think you still ought to take BWA up on his offer. Once you put that loco to use I'm afraid your probably going to continue loosing bearings and between front and back there are a bunch of them.

It's a lot of $$ for a dust collector.

AND, I think BWA would like to prove his prove his point. Not to mention it might put something out there for the rest of us to use.

Thats between you guys.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Once those bearings are in place, I doubt they'll be an issue. If they broke that often, you'd be hearing about it a lot more.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

The truck I ordered from Lionel arrived on Friday. I pressed out 4 bearings (two wheel sets) and without much effort replaced the broken bearings and wheel sets in my turbine. Everything looks and seems to operate fine now. My testing is limited. Testing a 3 ft engine on a 4 ft test track is limited, to say the least. I also tested it on rollers. All seemed OK. I plan on bringing it to the club on Wednesday night. I will post pictures afterward. Thanks again for all your help.


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## 89Suburban (Jan 4, 2017)

Good to hear buddy, good luck at the club.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Pat, glad you got it straightened out. I like to see the pictures too. Maybe you should make a video too.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Glad the end result was success.


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Pat, that sounds like you found the nail!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Pat, I knew you were going to solve your dilemma. There are a lot of people here to help you one way or another.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I'm thrilled with my S1. I ran it at the club on Wednesday night and it looks and runs great. Thanks again all for your help. I was PO'd and depressed that I got taken and was stuck with a boat anchor. Now I'm thrilled. Here are some pictures and a video of the engine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lookin' good! :thumbsup:


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

That's a heck of a engine. I'm glad you got things worked out.:thumbsup:


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Pat, That is a standup engine... Very detailed and a monster. Glad it all worked out. PS Excellent video also. You have gotten quite good at those. :appl: :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Mark Boyce (Jul 22, 2015)

Very nice Pat! I'm glad you got it fixed and running at the climb layout!


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Pat, I've been following this thread and my only suggestion was to get the CAD from Lionel regarding the bearing for reproduction. However, it seems all is well with your bearing refit and I'm glad to hear it. 

By the way, that seller is permanently scratched off my list and I encourage others to do the same. I don't take kindly to classless sellers who leave my train buddies in a lurch. It's not good business.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Pat, Good to hear that you were able to repair the steamer. Looks great in the video.

Bill


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the actual and psychological support you all gave me. This cost me a little more than I figured but in the end I got a real nice model. The background music in the video was a little tongue in cheek but I got a kick out of it.


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