# Need an info...110VAC...please



## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I live in a house that's 84 years old.The wall sockets are a mix of two and three pin types.I know that some time in the past there were only two pin type sockets and some were replaced with three pin types,so I suspect there's no functional "earth ground" in them.How can I test if the third pin is functional and not only a look alike?Half way done repairs are countless here,typical of owner,so..............


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## Mark R. (Jan 26, 2013)

I have one of these nifty little testers - immediately tells you if things are wired as they should be inside ....










Mark.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I don't have this tool.However I have a standard multimeter and an 110AC test lamp.If I check across one of the two 110V leads and the third pin (ground),what reading should I get,if any?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

A common thing that was done in houses like yours was to install grounded receptacles with no ground. 

The three prong tester will still read OK and indicate a ground, but the reality will be that the ground terminal of the outlet is simply hooked to the neutral at the outlet. We call this a 'false' or 'bootleg' ground. It does not offer the protection of a third wire ground circuit.

The reason this was done is simple. The outlets were replaced but the circuit that feeds it only contains the original two wires, there is no third ground wire.

In order to determine this you will have to remove the outlet and look.









Oddly enough, if you find this to be the case, a ground fault interrupter (GFCI) outlet will still work without a ground to provide you with a minimum of shock protection for a specific circuit (instead of having actual 'ground' protection it will open the circuit should you somehow become a current path).

Remember, the ground circuit provides an 'alternate' path for current back to the source (in our case the breaker panel). A bootleg ground does not provide this alternate path, and should the need arise and lacking a ground YOU can become the 'alternate' path.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Brakeman Jake said:


> I don't have this tool.However I have a standard multimeter and an 110AC test lamp.If I check across one of the two 110V leads and the third pin (ground),what reading should I get,if any?


If you take your multimeter between the hot (shorter) slot and the ground terminal you should read house voltage.

No reading indicates no ground. However if you get a reading this could still indicate a bootleg ground as in my previous post.

The reason for this is that the ground leg of the circuit is connected to the neutral leg of the circuit at the breaker panel (the meter can't tell the difference).


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I'll do just that...first the voltage test wich should be negative since I don't believe there's a third wire.Then if positive,I'll still have to open to check the third wire is really there.I wouldn't be surprised the owner did this cheat....highly typical of this cheap....


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Here is an interesting read on this topic: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/264400-28-poor-electrical-ground
It also give a solution that does not require retiring the whole house. 
Good luck,
Larry
Check out my blog: www.llxlocomotives.com


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

My suspiscion is confirmed,there's no functional ground in the outlets (no voltage reading) so no need to open.

This brings another question...I'm using a surge protection equipped power bar for the layout...does the lack of a functional "earth ground" make it useless,should there be a lightning strike near by?

If so,can I use the water heating radiator (near the layout) as an "earth ground"?


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

The write up I referenced says you can if your sure the pipe is metal in the ground. Here in states there is a good chance that it is not metal. Even in an 84 year old house, if the line had to be replaced in the last 20 years.
Larry


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

There's no new piping in the system.However,it is not a direct path to the house water supply.It is part of the heating system thus is connected to the furnace in the basement wich is a whole chunk of metal.The furnace,in turn,is linked to copper water supply.I believe it still should be a good ground.

If I extrapolate the previous info,connecting a meter across the short slot in the wall outlet and the radiator,I should get house voltage.If so,I'll be good...I'll keep posted.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I just tested the radiator's conductivity and the test lamp does light up when between the short slot and the rad.I have no idea how many amps it could support though,but should take care of the static electricity.

I never had strange behaviour nor television interference with the layout,but I like the extra safety.

Thanks gentlemen for your answers...they really helped.I know DC but AC is still mysterious to me.


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

hi brakeman jake, in Quebec do you use 230 volts phase to neutral and about 386-400 volts phase to phase 50 hertz.( to better understand.) as i did not think u have 120 volts 60 hertz like in the USA. just so everyone can understand . Look at my profile and u will understand. 24 years as a comerical and industrial and residential electrician also 1 year in Kuait and Iraq non Military doing same. I dont want to upset anyone thanks bob


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

My older house is wired using 2 conductor cables. In my breaker box
I find that the ground is also the 'neutral' connection. The
electricians have connected all of the white wires to the
'neutral', thus each outlet has both 120 volt 'high' and ground, else 
no current You can run a jumper from the white wire
to the 'ground' terminal on the 3 pole outlet as shown
in one of the above posts. This then allows the surge protectors
and ground fault outlets to work. Mine do.

Don


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The neutral is normally a current carrying conductor and the ground is not. Connecting the neutral and ground at an electrical receptacle does not create an actual ground it creates a situation where current can travel through the ground into a device or appliance and electrocute someone. :smilie_daumenneg:

Neutrals and grounds must not connect anywhere past the first service panel.

Surge protectors: The ground path is used to safely route the surge away from your electronic equipment. Without a ground, your surge suppressor won't work. With a bootleg ground, the surge is put on the same wire that all of your other household electric appliances are connected to. What good is that?

GFCI: Ground fault interrupters do not rely on a ground to operate. This is the only safety device that will still work without a proper ground. A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second. It will offer a limited amount of protection but not the full protection offered by a properly grounded system.


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

DonR said:


> My older house is wired using 2 conductor cables. In my breaker box
> I find that the ground is also the 'neutral' connection. The
> electricians have connected all of the white wires to the
> 'neutral', thus each outlet has both 120 volt 'high' and ground, else
> ...


Don i am sorry but i read he is in Canada.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Bob...house supply current is a bit of a mystery to me.I've spent most of my career dealing with automotive DC,so DC I'm familiar with.

I never really investigated how AC works until I started using DCC and actually started a layout.Being safety concerned has brought me to ask the present question.

As to wether we're using AC current the same way in Quebec as in the U.S.,I believe so.We're using the same appliances that I know of and 120V/60 hertz sounds familiar to me.Why we commonly say 110V here has unknown origins to me.Same for phasing,the usual numbers I hear are 120/240 V,how phasing works is an even deeper mystery to me as I only have a slight idea how it works.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I did a little research on wiring wall sockets and they're wired the same in Canada and the U.S.


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi brakeman Jake, Very sorry but my first reply was a QUESTION- if you used our voltage as i didn't know, about 50 years ago our voltage was 110-115 with better and cleaner power we now get about 123-125 volts, consistantly called 120 volts. I was not wanting to HIJACK your thread just help if I can. Comment only I have tried to better explain but got to lengthy. if i can help you can pm me. bob


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Don't be sorry Bob...I appreciate all the inputs I got.I'm always hungry for knowledge,although I won't make much use of this one.I won't re-wire the house I live in nor will I start another career.However,if I do find some reading explaining how phasing works,I'll sure read it...the curious bug in me I guess.Wether the phasing here works the way you said,I honestly don't know...I can only suppose so.

The present post has filled a void in my knowledge and I thank everyone who pitched in.I will use a heating radiator as a ground fixture,may not be the best but I'll have to settle for this solution.


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## BillCN (Jan 6, 2013)

bob from pdx said:


> Hi brakeman Jake, Very sorry but my first reply was a QUESTION- if you used our voltage as i didn't know,


Hi Bob

I think the voltage had better be the same, as many places in the north eastern US may well be using power that was generated in Quebec.

Btw: what or where is pdx? I googled it but all I came up with was an airport code for Portland.


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi Bill, yes its Portland Ore West Coast thanks, as my ? was I did not know.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

rkenney said:


> The neutral is normally a current carrying conductor and the ground is not. Connecting the neutral and ground at an electrical receptacle does not create an actual ground it creates a situation where current can travel through the ground into a device or appliance and electrocute someone. :smilie_daumenneg:
> 
> Neutrals and grounds must not connect anywhere past the first service panel.


Bob

I do understand what you are saying, but,
help me out here. Mine is an 1958 house wired with 2 wire cable out
of a 3 wire 200 amp breaker panel of post construction installation. The power line
service is 2 insulated wires and the uninsulated carrier that goes to
the mast and thence to the ground. From the meter the cable to
the panel has the ground and the neutral bussed together. Are you
saying that the ground post on my outlets should not be connected
to the white/neutral which is the only way for the surge protectors
to work. The ground detection device my cable guy used
told him the outlet ground pole was effective and usable.

Don


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Neutral is simply a jargon convention. The NEC identifies the three conductors as ground, grounded conductor (commonly refered to as neutral), and the un-grounded conductor (known as hot). They do also refer to them as 'neutral' and 'hot' for brevity.

Consider the early installations with only two wires. There is no hot/neutral distinction. Both have exactly the same lethal potential. This is what you have without a third wire at the outlet.

The installation you describe needs a third non-current carrying wire as a ground. 

I have already described why your surge protector will not be effective. Will it work? not correctly, all it will do is "clamp" a voltage spike right back into your electrical system through the white wire.

Three light testers like this will not detect a false ground.









You need a Sure Test tester like this older model (about $400)









Article 250 of the National Electrical Code (NEC) deals exclusively with grounding and bonding.

Larry the cable guy is wrong!!


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

It is my opinion only here.
In house hold AC a ground wire is connected to the white or neutral bus in the box.
The ground (bare wire) is the connected to the case, housing or whatever this is to protect that if the hot wire (black ) ever breaks or comes loose and touches the container of the electrical component the the circuit breaker will blow or trip because of the over load.
As a matter of fact any short to ground should cause the breaker tip trip off.

A 110-120 volt AC circuit consists of just one wire.
This one wire runs from the box through an electrical load and back to the box to complete the circuit. 

I find it easier to think this way to help understand the circuit I am wiring.


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

R KENNY, Yes Correctly said :appl::appl::appl::appl:also the cable man is not understanding 
either. see post #23 completely


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Typical of many people...they couldn't care if it's right or not...as long as it looks right for cheap.....
Could we question how many houses burn down every year,with possible loss of lives,caused by such practices?


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

Hi Dale, all electricity uses at least 2 wires to complete a circuit (one for power and one for return) except an electric Fence for animals as the body of the animal provides the path to ground, thus a SHOCK. be very careful as what u said for simplicity for u if it works OK then. bob


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## bob from pdx (Mar 18, 2014)

Jake, HI , then they don't understand why the insurance on their house is so high.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Bob et al

It's been a couple years since the cable (DirecTV actually) guy tested that outlet so I don't
remember the device he used.

My area of Jacksonville was developed by one company. There must be a thousand
homes of several different designs built by that outfit in this section, all built in the late 50s and early 60s. I suspect most of them are wired similar to mine. Thankfully, I am aware of no electrical house fires out here.

Now I'm not disagreeing with what has been said, I do understand electrical theory,
but so many houses all passed by the County's (now in the city) inspectors
does cause one to pause.

When the neutral from the power company is grounded at the mast (meter box)
and continues as grounded neutral to the breaker box where the
neutral and ground are tied together, where does the 'neutral'
(white wire) lose it's 'ground' potential? Even if there were a 3rd 'ground'
wire to an outlet box, that wire is tied to the neutral either at the 
breaker box or at the mast where power co. 'neutral' is grounded.

Thus, it would seem that if surge protector shunted a burst to ground
it would go right to the breaker box where ground and neutral are
tied together. Does the relatively short wire distance from breaker
to outlet make a difference?

Don


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

The electrical power supply box should have a master ground to earth then all the third wires from the wall sockets tied to THIS ground,not to the neutral (white) wires anywhere.It would deny the purpose of having an earth ground...wouldn't it?

The way I understand it,in fact you could have earth grounds anywhere...it's not necessary that the third wires go back to the power panel...am I right?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

DonR said:


> Bob et al
> 
> It's been a couple years since the cable (DirecTV actually) guy tested that outlet so I don't
> remember the device he used.
> ...


The codes that were applicable for the times were for polarized outlets (two prong one wide one short). Times have changed and the protections you now seek; surge, appliance ground, etc.. were not even imagined then. (they didn't even install enough outlets back then!)

Codes are not retroactive. The 2014 NEC code book is 1,000 pages. You'd shoot your congressman if you had to bring your house up to present code. Doesn't mean your system is acceptable, safe, or will function at the level you need it to.

Surge protectors will not work without a separate ground lead. period 
Bootleg grounds are not functional substitutes for a separate ground lead. period


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

Bob, 110v AC in the USA is a 1 wire system.
Just like DC, one wire comes from the supply to the electrical component and the same wire returns to the supply to complete the circuit.

You can run a single wire to a light then run a wire from the light to a ground and it will work.
I will agree that most people think that 110 volts requires 2 wires when in fact it is the same wire.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

rzw0wr said:


> Bob, 110v AC in the USA is a 1 wire system.
> Just like DC, one wire comes from the supply to the electrical component and the same wire returns to the supply to complete the circuit.
> 
> You can run a single wire to a light then run a wire from the light to a ground and it will work.
> I will agree that most people think that 110 volts requires 2 wires when in fact it is the same wire.


That's so stupid I shouldn't even reply! You are wrong. PERIOD:smilie_auslachen:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rzw0wr said:


> Bob, 110v AC in the USA is a 1 wire system.
> Just like DC, one wire comes from the supply to the electrical component and the same wire returns to the supply to complete the circuit.
> 
> You can run a single wire to a light then run a wire from the light to a ground and it will work.
> I will agree that most people think that 110 volts requires 2 wires when in fact it is the same wire.


You should really share whatever you're smoking. 

There's a half-truth in there, but you don't realize where it lies. The only reason that running a wire to ground works is that the neutral is bonded to the ground at the service panel.

For any circuit to work, there must be a complete circuit, for that light bulb, I can assure you that running only one wire connection to it won't do the trick.


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

Please allow me one more attempt to explain what I am saying.
First of all the comment about the light to earth ground was not posted as a practical idea.
I tried to use it as an example.

Below is 2 diagrams of what I am trying to say.
If you disagree that is fine.
This my opinion.
This is how I think of 110 AC when I am laying out wiring either for a friend or my home.
If the friend does not understand electricity or household wiring this method appears to help them understand better.









I am not trying to say that there is not 2 pieces of wire for 110 AC, I am trying to say that that it can be thought of as a 1 wire system.

One wire in, 1 wire out.
The out wire can be thought of as a continuance of the 1 wire going in and back out.

I am saying the same thing as you are, just in a different way. 
You can add the in wire and the out wire and call it 2 wires.
I don't think this way. 1 in and the same 1 wire out.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The diagrams are fine, my personal opinion is your method of explain it is more confusing than just saying there are two wires.


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

OK, John.
As I have said it is just how I look at it.
I am not trying to change any ones mind, just expressing my opinion.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rzw0wr said:


> I am not trying to change any ones mind, just expressing my opinion.


Me too.  I've long ago stopped trying to change anyone's mind. Personally, I'm happy with the one I have, so I have no need to change it.


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