# MTH proto 2.0 boards



## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

The upper and lower boards in my engine are called proto sound boards but one of these or both control forward and reverse. Can the engine run without the "sound" board?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For PS/2, the boards are a set, and they are both REQUIRED for any operation. There are two types of PS/2 board sets, 3V and 5V.

3V PS/2 Board Set in plastic carrier.









5V PS/2 Board set


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

I would like to replace that unit with one of these for blue tooth control. I dont have dcc but I believe it will work with conventional power. Anyone here do one of these conversions?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I've been looking at those as well. But you need an isolated motor (as you likely have w/MTH). They won't work with pre/post war trains as the motor frame is connected to power via the wheel set.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Wonder how many amps 2 mth motors pull. This company offers a 2 and 5 amp board.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Thats why I was asking about the function about the 2 MTH boards: I would loose the proto sound if I ditch it for the bluetooth board.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> Wonder how many amps 2 mth motors pull. This company offers a 2 and 5 amp board.


Get the 5 amp board. A close review of the BlueRail spec.'s shows the amp rating in the name is not the same as the sustained amp rating of the board. The ratings for the 2 amp board is 2 amps peak and 1.5 amps continuous. The ratings for the 5 amp board is 5 amps peak and 3 amps continuous. And I would opt for the 150' range. Not becuase you need the distance, but to insure you don't lose signal for whatever reason.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Mike, any thoughts on adding the blue tooth and keeping sounds?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Updated with new post.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> Mike, any thoughts on adding the blue tooth and keeping sounds?


It would seem that "5-Amp" module operates in two modes. 

In "Basic" mode the module controls the motor and a couple of functions (lights) via the wireless App.

In "DCC mode" the modules receives commands from the wireless app and conveys them to a connected DCC compliant decoder module. The decoder module can have sound (speaker output) and many functions controlled by the app. But in DCC mode, it's the decoder module that supplies power to the motors. Most DCC decoders are made for HO and a few for G-scale. The trick is to find a DCC decoder that can handle the power requirements of an O-scale MTH engine.

Here's "DCC mode"


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

I dont have any dcc equipment😢


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

You don't need any DCC equipment or control system. Just to be clear ...

The Bluerail 5-Amp board by itself in "Basic Mode", will run off the wireless app, control the motor and I believe it has one or two more outputs for lights, etc. You won't get sound in that configuration.

You can put the board in "DCC Mode". In that mode, as pictured above, the main output of the "5-Amp" board will send the App signals to a generic, off-the shelf, DCC decoder. The decoder will respond to app commands, drive the motor, control lights etc, and if equipped, will have sound with a built in amplifier for a speaker. As before, you would need to find a DCC decoder (there are many) that can handle the amp ratings for the O-scale MTH loco (fewer, more expensive). 

Generic DCC decoders pickup power and DCC signals via the track. That is, the DCC signals are overlaid on top of track power in much the same way MTH provides DCS signalling to its locos.. The BlueRail module picks up track power but gets it control from the wireless app. Hence, the track doesn't have any DCC signalling on it. The BlueRail module provides power to the DCC decoder and overlays the DCC signalling (from the wireless app) on top of the power feed to the decoder. The decoder sees what it's designed for; power and overlaid DCC signals. So any generic decoder can be used with the BlueRail module. In essence, the 5-Amp module becomes the radio receiver, power pickup & control pass-through to generic DCC decoder. 

Note: BlueRail says it will work with MTH loco boards 2014 and newer. But I gather yours is older given it's PS2.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

What do those dcc boards cost on average. Bad enough for the bluetooth board at $150. You can get lionel blue tooth engines for less then that. I think I paid $115 for my rs3 and my BT polar express was around that cost too.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> What do those dcc boards cost on average. Bad enough for the bluetooth board at $150. You can get lionel blue tooth engines for less then that. I think I paid $115 for my rs3 and my BT polar express was around that cost too.


The Traxx DCC decoders offered for sale on the BlueRail site were $120 to $180 and not much cheaper on other sites. There are cheaper decoder boards going down to $50. But with sound and a high amp rating, they seem to be $100+. At present, the high amp decoders are in a niche market (G-scale). The majority of decoder sales are in the higher volume HO market. But with MTH gone, it may be the only option to keep advanced features after an electronics failure. That may increase the need for these modules - sales volume - at some point in the future ... perhaps causing a price drop as the O-Scale market creates additional economies of scale for the manufactures. But I wouldn't "Hold My Breath" 

Adding secondary capabilities to a unit usual costs more than buying an all inclusive product to begin with. At present, I would think that a BlueRail/decoder solution would appropriate for an MTH Premier loco in need of new electronics. 

I'm thinking of dropping a 5-Amp board into a pre-war loco for the wireless motor control. And if that BlueRail module does support a couple of control outputs, maybe direction and proprietary sound (my own design). But that's a future project. I've just begun restoring some Lionel prewar passenger cars from the "teens". And that will be my focus for now.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Mike, does anyone make a cheap diesel sound board I could install in my B unit?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Perhaps you should start a thread asking same to alert others into that question with more experience with diesel locos.

I'm focusing on Prewar Lionel - only steam. And my investigation into the BlueRail Approach is for that purpose.

One note: In basic mode, you have two additional 3 V outputs on the 5-Amp module that can be controlled via the App. They are designated for front and rear lights. As per the picture, the 5-Amp module supplies a constant 3 V and the two controllable outputs would complete a circuit to ground to activate the LED(s).That may be appropriate for a diesel loco but not essential for steam (or at all - lights always on). I might use one to trigger a small relay that would control a generic sound module (a module that's not necessarily a dedicated model railroad product). I may use the other to control the Lionel E-unit for reverse control of my prewar locos. 

I would imagine that there are sound modules that can be controlled via the Lionel "DC power overlay approach". Others would have better info on that.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

What is the price of that board you are showing?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The BlueRail board requires you to have a DCC board as well in order to add sound. By the time you get it all together, you have a considerable sum of money in electronics.

For diesels, you can buy the complete TMCC command package with sound for a little more than $200. That includes cruise control. Steamers cost a bit more if you want chuffing smoke as you need extra stuff to control the smoke.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ennisdavis said:


> What is the price of that board you are showing?


That's the small 2-amp board. The 5-amp board has the same lighting outputs. The BlueRail picture of the 2-amp just showed it better so I posted that pic.

The 5-Amp board is $140; $150 w/ extended range antenna. That board is good for 3 amps continuous draw, 5 amps peak. The 2 amp board supports 1.5 amps continuous, 2 amp peak and costs $95, $105 w/ extended antenna.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

When you say a complete TMCC package for $200, are you talking about 6-12911? If so you still need loco internals right?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You need a TMCC command system for TMCC locomotives, but you can have a hundred TMCC locomotives, you only need one command system.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

You know the options look not so hot for dead protosound boards right now. If you have legacy also and a burned out protosound board ... It's seems the best bet is the tmcc package suggested above. If not, the legacy base is a few hundred on top.

Or DCC seems an option but there's the mixed command system operation problem... Which may not have a solution.

But for pure DCC, there's the cost DCC engine board itself (aka sound decoder). Not to mention a DCC control system. It might be worth a quick mention DCC uses bemf to estimate motor rotations unlike the direct detect systems by mth and Lionel.

Anyway in the DCC control system or "base station", many of us in ho-land have built the so called DCC++ open source base station project and use that with the free jmri software package for operation.

Whether DCC++ power is enough for o gauge motors is not known to me. I'm sure finding bigger such boards is realistic but someone has to do it, to modify the DCC++ software to make it work.

In the end DCC++ for o is starting to sound like project in its own right..


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## GrapevineFlyer (Sep 7, 2015)

Millstonemike said:


> Perhaps you should start a thread asking same to alert others into that question with more experience with diesel locos.
> 
> I'm focusing on Prewar Lionel - only steam. And my investigation into the BlueRail Approach is for that purpose.
> 
> ...


I'm interested in the BlueRailDCC boards as well. I had a discussion with someone who works with them, and they said the latest Tam Valley firmware helps manage voltage spike issues often associated with older motors - so they are trying to accommodate that market. I was interested to learn that the 5-amp board has 2 additional connection ports (marked D1 and D2) that are triggered by the bell and horn buttons in the app ( F1 and F2). I don't think this is documented, but its good to know there are 2 additional places to trigger things in the larger board. There is a lot of information in the userguide on the site: BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley UserGuide


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

GrapevineFlyer said:


> I'm interested in the BlueRailDCC boards as well. I had a discussion with someone who works with them, and they said the latest Tam Valley firmware helps manage voltage spike issues often associated with older motors - so they are trying to accommodate that market. I was interested to learn that the 5-amp board has 2 additional connection ports (marked D1 and D2) that are triggered by the bell and horn buttons in the app ( F1 and F2). I don't think this is documented, but its good to know there are 2 additional places to trigger things in the larger board. There is a lot of information in the userguide on the site: BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley UserGuide


Yes, I sent them a msg and their response mentioned the S/W vis-a-vis the voltage spikes. I would think that adding the capacitor, recommended for higher amp draw locos, would minimize spikes to the sensitive electronics on the board (or an additional small cap as well).

That's good to know about the D1/D2 outputs, thx for that. I wonder if they work similar to the front and rear light outputs that complete the connection to ground to power LEDS. Not a lot of power there as I've read "20 ma" for the +3.3 V source on the board.

But they didn't answer my question on maximum voltage. As stated the 5-amp board is good to 18 V. But they don't specify AC or DC. AC voltage is measure as an rms value. That value peaks at 1.4 times the rms rating. So 18 V AC has a peak ~ 25.5 V. I asked about that but they didn't directly address that in their response to me.

If they're max rating is 18 V DC, that pretty much precludes powering pre/post war locos with a classic AC transformer. The max AC voltage would need to < ~12.75 V rms not to exceed 18 V max. Fortunately the classic Lionel Loco.'s have "universal" motors that run just fine on DC. You would need an 18 V DC power pack for the track. You would also need to isolate the motor from the frame. That can be accomplished on most, but not all, Lionel loco's by detaching the one field winding lead connected to the motor frame.

Lastly, they may not offer an android version of the app any time soon. They said they would need to sell 5,000 units to break even. That would be a bummer for me as I'm used to android and have never owned an Apple phone. And they have to compete with DCC in the large HO market.

The plot thickens ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BlueRail is dead to me until they have Android versions.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> BlueRail is dead to me until they have Android versions.


My sentiments exactly. I won't be planning on any purchases until they do.


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## ennisdavis (Dec 9, 2018)

Ditto.....thats why I went with Lionchief, its android friendly.


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## GrapevineFlyer (Sep 7, 2015)

I know from experience building an app on any platform (iOS or Android) is usually at $10-20K effort. I don't know what their profit margins are, and how many boards you need to sell as a small company for that to make sense, but it is probably harder for a small company to launch on all platforms at once. I know when BlueRail made their first product they partnered with Bachmann on the EZ App, and I imagine the partnership helped subsidize the Android version of the app they put out. Hopefully they can do something similar to upgrade their Android app to support DCC.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can only say that I won't be looking at any of those without Android applications.


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## GrapevineFlyer (Sep 7, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I can only say that I won't be looking at any of those without Android applications.


Yea, I get you. I like Android too.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Android WIFI Solution

*WiFiTrax *makes an onboard wireless module ($79 msrp) that accepts commands from the *EngineDriver *Android App and delivers them to a generic DCC decoder such as a DigiTrax *DG583AR *5-Amp decoder ($67 msrp, $54 @ sbs4dcc.com)). Spec.'s for the WifiTrax module indicate 3 amp continuous and 4 amp peak with an input voltage of 12 to 18 V DC. (However, the module's PCB silkscreen lists 8-24 V DC input). Obviously, you need to consider the max voltage for the decoder itself. Adding sound would be the next step. DigiTrax makes separate sound decoders that can be used independently of the DCC Decoder. DigiTrax *SFX006 Soundbug* ($53 msrp) can be wired in parallel to the output of the WifiTrax DCC interface (low output volume but there are others). I presume that would mean a second address for operating the sound module (like a separate loco or other sound device such as a depot). There are some high power DCC decoders with sound but pricing starts at $150+.

For $186 for the setup (plus tax & shipping if applicable) with a benefit of moving towards an "open architecture" wireless DCC solution. A high current DCC decoder with onboard sound would be ideal. I've seen a few but they're ~$150+ before adding the WiFiTrax module/


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## GrapevineFlyer (Sep 7, 2015)

Can you read/write CVs with the WiFiTrax?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

If I understand you question ... You want to update a generic DCC module w/Sound via the WiFiTrax module. 

I haven't see any mfg literature that supports that. You can update the WiFiTrax module firmware via a USB interface using this WiFiTrax *Interface Module*.

The *Digitrax PR4 module* supports USB to DCC decoder for programming modules. It also allows PCs to connect to the track for PC control Apps of DCC modules.


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## kbrowneng77 (Dec 16, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> For PS/2, the boards are a set, and they are both REQUIRED for any operation. There are two types of PS/2 board sets, 3V and 5V.
> 
> 3V PS/2 Board Set in plastic carrier.
> View attachment 545725
> ...


Hello,

My name is Mr. Brown
I am new to model trains and I bought one on eBay that does not work. I want to buy a new PS/2 board for my Rail King MTH Southern Pacific Gs-4 Steamer with Proto Sound locomotive. I saw a comment you made in the discussion thread with this link MTH proto 2.0 boards

You uploaded a picture of the board I want to buy and you said it is a 5V version. Could you tell me the model# for the board and where I could buy it? My email is [email protected] Thank you.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Jumping into his conversation late but given an MTH as a base engine....
*A Mike'schief Plus *(trademark pending- just kidding*) is an option. *That is, a baseline MTH engine (frame, motors, trucks) can be retrofitted with certain Lionchief Plus boards, a simple wiring harness made up and LED lighting, and result is a bluetooth or Lionel universal remote driven engine, also possible to use under conventional transformer operation, with sounds, smoke, and even elecrocouplers and yes, possibly done cheaper than some of the proposed solutions.
*Lionchief plus boards are between $55- $75* and you can either get one that requires a tachometer (and thus you are best to buy the Lionel motor to get the tach sensor and flywheel combo roughly $32) or get one of the few tackless back EMF boards. Also, MTH PS1 couplers are the same as a Lionel and can be used, but PS2 and PS3 couplers must be changed to a PS1 or Lionel version to be compatible. Also, MTH smoke units can be used, just remove one resistor for a 16 Ohm smoke resistance (MTH used 16 ohm resistors, but just 2 in series or parallel depending on the unit).
*Also keep in mind the half off annual Lionel parts sale. If you plan ahead, that makes the conversion even cheaper.*

Also- no you cannot use or adapt the MTH flywheel and optical tach. You have to switch to the Lionel parts. You pull off the MTH flywheel, install the Lionel tach board on the motor brush end, and then install the Lionel flywheel (set screwed not pressed on) making it easy. the challenge is more removing the MTH flywheel than anything and just requires he correct puller tool. Again, if that is too hard or won't fit, there is the back EMF variant of the LC+ board but it is in less models and road names.

*And then, latest kicker- Lionchief Plus 2.0 includes TMCC operation.* Boards are* list at $150 *and all but 1 (dockside steam) requires a matching tach and flywheel (buying a $32 motor with tach and flywheel is best). Same rules, 16 ohm. smoke requirement, LED lighting, and either PS1 or Lionel electrocouplers.

Again, *if done right at the half off sale and planned ahead*, you can do a conversion for *UNDER $100 *for a standard bluetooth plus version, or splurge and get for say *under $150* do a complete *LC Plus 2.0 with TMCC.*
One downside is you have to build your own wiring harness. Lionel does not yet list those parts in most cases. But you can buy ready made JST-ZH and JST-PH connectors with wiring on Amazon in various number of pins pretty reasonably.

Again, the basic requirements to use a LC+ or LC+ 2.0
8 ohm speaker
1-2 can DC motors (note, most Williams are not a great choice, too high gearing and too high amp draw) MTH is perfect.
PS1 or Lionel electrocouplers. Cannot use PS2 or PS3 couplers electrically incompatible.
Possibly install a lionel tach sensor board and matching flywheel on one motor. Or go with specific tackless LC+ board.
16 ohm smoke resistor in fan driven smoke unit (MTH does use 16 ohm resistors- just must remove and use only 1)
LED lighting for all outputs.
DIY wiring harness.

Discussions Lionel Lionchief Plus 2.0 and recent Legacy wiring and...









Lionchief Plus non-tachometer back EMF board details


Just trying to get some info out there and there will be more to come. Smoke unit uses a 16 Ohm resistor. Working on the exact pinout and will update. FYI, not all boards have the silkscreen labels so hoping this helps people in both repairs and modifications.




www.modeltrainforum.com













Lionchief upgrades


I purchased the Lionchief Santa Fe Super Chief set because I wanted something that looked like the passenger set from the 50's. It works well not that I upgraded the power supply so I can use the uncoupler track. As I look at the features of the Lionchief Plus (electrocouplers and speed...




www.modeltrainforum.com






*Keep in mind, this has changed over time.* Months ago, I never saw anyone else publish much reverse engineering of Lionchief+. You had to buy an engine to understand the wiring harness and while Lionel had parts breakdowns, you still didn't know everything on what was compatible. *Now, 7-9 months later, *I know and have done conversions. LC+ 2.0 is still so brand new Lionel only sells the board, but I have figured out what legacy sensor boards work and specific flywheels.

And the kicker is, MTH engines, both Railking and Premier are near perfect candidates. The motors and gearing are so close to Lionel it just is a match made for this conversion. Even specifics like MTH always used 16 ohm smoke resistors just 2 of them that can be reduced to 1. Also, PS1 conversions often have usable electrocouplers making this even more attractive.


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## Ron045 (Feb 11, 2016)

I realize this is an old thread that has been re-vitalized, so I won't re-hash the pros and cons of various setups.

Only to say that I have done BlueRail with MTH PS3 (in DCC Mode), BlueRail and Soundtrax sound (Running on AC track power with my Lionel and DCS engines at the same time) and something else I discovered and like called RailPro.

If anyone has any questions I have videos on YT under ron045 or feel free to message me.

Ron


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

If the new DCS company doesn't get up off their arses and start offering replacement boards AND warrantying boards installed in locomotives, they'll go the way of the dodo due to options like ERR, LC plus and 2.0 boards, and BlueRail.

If they are going to be making boards, they should warranty them. As mentioned earlier, the breakup has become a mess. Mostly because the offshoot companies are not keeping the public informed. Heck, I emailed a question to the new MTH parts site and never got a reply.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Sorry, I messed up and should have helped answer this question before my post.


kbrowneng77 said:


> You uploaded a picture of the board I want to buy and you said it is a 5V version. Could you tell me the model# for the board and where I could buy it?


I could not tell a new user any part of that was a good idea. That is my opinion and experience, but again, a 5V board is no longer made, they are not the best design, and they are prone to failure- hence why we are even having a discussion. I would say, the FAR smarter thing is bite the bullet and minimally go PS2 3V from a cheap used railking engine and you would be in much better shape.

You can beg whoever you want for a board, maybe they have one that hasn't failed. And there lies the issue, they sell it to you, you install it, and the first time you power it up it blows up. Or maybe it waits a week and then blows up. I just think this is a bad idea for anyone selling a ps2 5V board or engine- you get caught up in support and questions you don't want to deal with an certainly makes the whole selling experience a pain and the buyer side of this, you take a massive risk. Let's face it, you done messed up ONCE when you bought the PS2 5V engine, without researching, without knowing, and then now you want to buy a second PS2 5V board? Did you learn nothing from the first mistake?


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I think you could make a few hundred dollars writing an article on converting MTH locos to LionChief or LionChief + for one of the magazines. Sounds like you've got this covered, which is great. Given the uncertain future availability of PS2.0 and 3.0 command boards, this could be a significant market in the future for Lionel parts.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

As a preface, I know I came out swinging, *but sorry, I KNEW this was going to happen*. The market is FULL of PS2 5V engines *easily identified by product number. *The novice buyer has no clue and I'll also bet the sellers are in some cases, dumber than the buyers. I say that, because as a seller, if you sell a product that is either dead, or dies on first power up, that just gives the buyer leverage the item you described as new in box or functional- you end up paying returns, disputes whatever. So depending on how and where you sell it, that is one hell of a risk. Again, as a seller, you are at serious risk for being liable for a return and then you may or may not be stuck with shipping costs both ways, plus return the money, plus fees, plus loss of reputation and now have a dead engine.


*As an example ALWAYS look up the product number and make a note of 2 things when buying a used MTH engine.

#1 make a note of the year produced.* 2000 to roughly 2004 is suspect years. Around 2004-2005 is when PS2 3V was being put into O scale (previously, and I only recently learned this, PS2 3V started in G scale during the time when O scale was using PS2 5V). *Do NOT only go by year.* This is just a first basic range indicator.
*#2 Always, and I do mean always, download the PDF manual and skim to the battery replacement section,* If it has a 9V style battery or 8.4V wording, generally you do not want that engine (PS2 5V or worse, a PS1 engine). If it has an blue or green AA or AAA battery pack, and 2.4V wording in the battery section, then that is a PS2 3V and considered a good candidate.

If you follow these most basic steps, you can prevent a major drain on your wallet when you buy and pay waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for a PS2 5V engine only to either have it be dead or die very quickly in front of you and then you are looking for a total upgrade or replacement of the electronics.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I agree and it is always good to know the break off of the 5V versus 3V years. But, it is also a fair amount of work to have the MTH Catalog section up and toggle back and forth then check a guide such as you describe, then message the ebay seller that what they have is PS 2.0 5V and you ask has the unit been verified as working and they laugh at you. 

"It's new in box, I have no idea what you are talking about". So I cut and paste what you have above and send it to them and they ban me. These sellers, generally, know or they are the next generation selling dad's or grandad's trains and looking to cash in and YOU just rained on their parade. 

Then a buyer will come along with more money than brains and see the beautiful work MTH did on their Premier's and pay the $649 or whatever. Then they go to run it, it's dead or dying and they ask for a refund on a 15 year old or whatever electronic toy from a seller that has no intention of giving any refunds. As is Where is - I see that a lot. 

I have a lot of PS 2.0 in my road names and have not done a deep dive into the 5V / 3V status. I just know I am a bit more careful when I consider older MTH, and frankly I have more then enough to run fun train consists, and plenty of new stuff on order.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jetguy said:


> *As an example ALWAYS look up the product number and make a note of 2 things when buying a used MTH engine.
> 
> #1 make a note of the year produced.* 2000 to roughly 2004 is suspect years. Around 2004-2005 is when PS2 3V was being put into O scale (previously, and I only recently learned this, PS2 3V started in G scale during the time when O scale was using PS2 5V). *Do NOT only go by year.* This is just a first basic range indicator.
> *#2 Always, and I do mean always, download the PDF manual and skim to the battery replacement section,* If it has a 9V style battery or 8.4V wording, generally you do not want that engine (PS2 5V or worse, a PS1 engine). If it has an blue or green AA or AAA battery pack, and 2.4V wording in the battery section, then that is a PS2 3V and considered a good candidate.
> ...


Although this is mostly accurate, it's not 100% foolproof. The manuals during the transition period frequently referenced the wrong board set and battery instructions. Happily, they were usually telling you about the 9V battery for the old 5V board and when you opened up the locomotive (or tender), you typically found the 2-cell blue NiCad. If you find the blue battery, that's a good thing, you have the much more reliable 3V board set. 

There's another method you can employ without disasembly besides the ones detailed above. Look for the charging port for the battery, on steam it's usually on the tender, though there are exceptions. If you find a round connector with a single center pin, that's the older 5V board set. If you find the rectangular connector with two pins, that's the newer (and more desirable) 3V board set.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

So in my ebay search today I see a locomotive I am interested in - 

MTH 3 RAIL EXCELLENT RS-3 DIESEL BURLINGTON ENGINE ROAD #8800 #30-2409-1 658081072494 | eBay 

I did go to the MTH Product Locater and found this information --> 

*30-2409-1*




RS-3 Diesel Engine - With Proto-Sound 2.0

For availability see
'Find it locally' tab


$259.95
*Product Information*

*Description*(active tab)
*Overview*
*Features*
*Find It Locally*
*Support*
RS-3 Diesel Engine - With Proto-Sound 2.0 - Burlington Engine No. 8800
*Roadname: *

Burlington
*Product Item Number: *
30-2409-1
*Catalog: *

BJ 2004 Volume 1
*Product Line: *

RailKing

*Delivery Status: *
Delivered MAR. 2004

*_*

So this is almost certainly a 5V Board. (Again - I have never opened up an MTH locomotive to see the inner workings)

The content of the sale (not really an auction) - 
*EXCELLENT CONDITION. MANUFACTURED IN 2004. MTH - RAILKING RS-3 BURLINGTON #8800 DIESEL ENGINE WITH PROTO-SOUND 2.0. #30-2409-1

FEATURES: Die-Cast Truck Sides, Pilots and Fuel Tank - Colorful Paint Scheme - Metal Chassis - Metal Handrails and Decorative Horn - Intricately Detailed ABS Body - Metal Wheels and Axles - Locomotive Speed Control - (2) Precision Flywheel Equipped Motors - (2) Remotely Controlled Proto-Couplersr - Proto-Sound 2.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring:- Freight Yard Proto-Effects - Unit Measures:14 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 3 3/4" - Operates On O-31 Curves

THIS DIESEL ENGINE APPEARS TO BE IN EXCELLENT CONDITION. NO SCRATCHES OR DENTS. THE BOX IS IN GREAT CONDITION. ORIGINAL SHIPPING BOX. PLEASE LOOK AT THE PHOTOS TO SEE THE CONDITION.

IT COMES FROM THE ESTATE OF A METICULOUS TRAIN COLLECTOR. HE TOOK EXCELLENT CARE OF HIS TRAINS AS YOU CAN SEE.

__*

My comments - 

This is a perfect beta test of Jetguy's comments regarding the seller not having a clue or not wanting to disclose that he knows anything about early PS 2.0 5V board issues. 

The seller will not even test it. Potential buyers that are not educated will care less. Suppose you are a new O Scale guy from Illinois or the midwest that wants to start building your O Scale collection and you see this impressive model. You buy it, it never runs, you might think why I am in this hobby? 

This "dealer-seller" on ebay has no real idea whether the estate guy knew a darn thing about the locomotives and updated to BCR or made any changes. He's just BS'ing with his sales comments and adding $50 to the asking price. 

I would love to have this one for around $225, it's 2004 era Rail King. But I have one on order through Berwyn's with "Everywhere West" added to the sides. Sure, it's Premier for $500 but I don't need the headaches. 

Nonetheless this is a Poster Child for what is in the marketplace for sure.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Why a 2004 can be one of those "problem" years.








*One picture in the manual shows a 5V PS2 obvious as day. The yellow Kapton tape over the motor drive FET heatsinks and the general mounting is very different from a PS2 3V.*









*But then the battery section shows 2.4V battery and 2 pin charging port*








*On the engine, as advertised, we never see the charging port so this is one of those gamble engines.
It probably is a very first released transition engine of the PS2 3V without seeing the inside, without seeing the charging port we do not 100% know.*

Oops, should have been this picture


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

My point is just trying to help.
If you are selling an engine- #1 know what you have. #2 when taking pictures, show the details to PROVE what version of electronics it has.
If you are buying- learn what the boards and charging ports look like, know how to find them, where to zoom in on photos and validate.
If you don't see it, you don't know- consider that and the price before buying.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Bryan Moran said:


> So in my ebay search today I see a locomotive I am interested in -
> 
> MTH 3 RAIL EXCELLENT RS-3 DIESEL BURLINGTON ENGINE ROAD #8800 #30-2409-1 658081072494 | eBay


So message the seller. Ask for a picture of the charging port.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Millstonemike said:


> So message the seller. Ask for a picture of the charging port.


Subtly, they would say NO. I have tried it. Most of the time they come back by saying they know nothing about it. I did send this seller some questions.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Millstonemike said:


> So message the seller. Ask for a picture of the charging port.


....and here was the seller's actual reply - typical of most ebay seller's ---


*New message from: tnt4tr-96 (18)*
*Thank you for the information on our MTH train. We have no idea if this train runs and we base our prices on simular trains that we find on multiple resale websites.

We understand your concern whether or not this train will run. That is why we state the condition of the train to the best of our ability.

You can see by our ratings that our customers are very satisfied by our products and service.

Once again we appreciate the information you shared with us.

All the best and Happy holidays
T~N~T*


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## Ron045 (Feb 11, 2016)

Move on... It's priced too high anyway. Seller must think there is a bar of gold inside. The seller does not need to be the smart one... The buyer does.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, this one has a split personality, which is what I was saying about determining the vintage of the board set.
It sure shows the 5V board set, but then there's this picture later in the manual...


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## kbrowneng77 (Dec 16, 2021)

Jetguy said:


> Sorry, I messed up and should have helped answer this question before my post.
> 
> I could not tell a new user any part of that was a good idea. That is my opinion and experience, but again, a 5V board is no longer made, they are not the best design, and they are prone to failure- hence why we are even having a discussion. I would say, the FAR smarter thing is bite the bullet and minimally go PS2 3V from a cheap used railking engine and you would be in much better shape.
> 
> You can beg whoever you want for a board, maybe they have one that hasn't failed. And there lies the issue, they sell it to you, you install it, and the first time you power it up it blows up. Or maybe it waits a week and then blows up. I just think this is a bad idea for anyone selling a ps2 5V board or engine- you get caught up in support and questions you don't want to deal with an certainly makes the whole selling experience a pain and the buyer side of this, you take a massive risk. Let's face it, you done messed up ONCE when you bought the PS2 5V engine, without researching, without knowing, and then now you want to buy a second PS2 5V board? Did you learn nothing from the first mistake?


I am new to this posting business and I was directing my question to the user named gunrunnerjohn as he seems to know what he is talking about and he is the one who posted the picture I referred to. So, gunrunnerjohn, if you can see this would you mind answering my question above. If there is some kind of an upgrade or whatever that will make the train run and the horn and smoke work then I would be satisfied with that. I bought it because I think it looks cool and that is all I care about in this case. I bought my first train 2 weeks ago and in fact I bought 13 of them. 12 of them work great so I guess I am doing good after hearing all of your complaining. I got a 1948 GG1, 1955 GG1, 1989 GG1 Amtrak new in box never run before with 7 Lionel Aluminum Amtrak cars new in box never run, Williams F40ph Amtrak, MTH F40ph Amtrak, Williams by Bachman F40ph Amtrak new in box never run, Hiawatha Steam Loco painted in Santa Fe, Hiawatha Steam Loco The Milwaukee Road new in box never run and three or four others... My sons and I are having a blast running them and I was surprised that they make smoke and talk. I still have not figured out how to do all the tricks with it but I am getting there. By the way, I want to buy a Lionel F40ph if anyone has one for sale (nos. 82453 and 82454, Phase II; 82455 and 82456, Phase III, powered).


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

Looking through this again. If Lionel made the LC2 boards available with legacy instead of TMCC, it would probably kill Protosound (and ERR). When you figure a LC2 board with TMCC is half the price of a PS3 set, if the LC2 / Legacy were even 300, it would match the price of PS3 replacement boards with equivalent options and 2 methods of digital control.

ERR is getting up into the PS2/3 board range with the latest price increase and is more of a PS2 equivalent since it uses TMCC. This is making the LC2/TMCC option more attractive price wise. 

ERR's biggest advantage over PS2 is having the sound and motor control on totally separate boards.


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## Ron045 (Feb 11, 2016)

kbrowneng77 said:


> I am new to this... I bought my first train 2 weeks ago and in fact I bought 13 of them.


Wow... 13? Someone got bit hard by the train bug. Welcome and Have Fun!
Ron


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You're really jumping into the deep end of the pool, 13 locomotives right from the start! 

What specific question do you have?


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