# Help! SOS



## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

Just arrived at my door from a pal. Neither of us can Identify as lousy paintjob... (no Kidding!) obviously a prewar lionel boxcab type? spoked RED wheels...any idea what model ? 154, 152 ??? Thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, it's old, that's for sure!  Are you sure it's a Lionel?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gudgirl,

At first glance, I'm guessing Ives from the 1920's.

Go to the link below, then click on the many different "series" links to see if you can find a matching photo / loco.

http://www.ivestrains.org/CD/O_Gauge/locomotive/electric/htmlfiles/o_gauge_electrics.htm

How do I get one of those to "just arrive at my doorstep" ?!?!?

Cheers,

TJ


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

*Sos*

Thanks for your replies... I will have to take more photos but camera crapped out. (Batteries) But if you think its an Ives... any idea what model then? many thanx


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I think it is an early Lionel from 1917 to 1925.
The bell holder is from a 150 but your from with three steps suggest a 152-156. Having not seen these up close the variations are not obvious, even the wheels look different so it may have an Ives root. Definitely in that time period. The hole number match Lionel not Ives. The side holes for railings are there. Ives just had bumps molded in . I looked at the 2350 for comparison.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I had a look in my Doyle prewar Lionel book. I think T-Man may be on the right track. The 3-step frame points towards a Lionel 152, 153, 154, 156 series. These are all very close, with only subtle differences in trim, paint color, etc.

T-Man, in Doyle, it looks like 153 / 156 did have a bell holder like that. Not 100% clear, though.

You should look at the underside for any identifying marks, plates, etc.

Then again, some of those Ives electric locos via my link above look very, very similar, too. I woudln't rule out Ives.

Regards,

TJ


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

The cow catcher grills in the photo she gave us look like they are stamped steel not cast like the Ives were?
The Number of holes in the side grills are different than Ives? More holes than the older models and less holes than the Newer ones.
The rivets and journal bearings covers are different than all of the Ives and again appear to be stamped steel.
The hand rails point to a newer styling of the IVES, holes (It is missing the hand rails) in it suggest a newer model?
The cab roof appears to have no detail on it.
I am not all that familiar with old Lionel but in that time frame did they do stamped steel or Cast like Ives?
If they did cast Could this be a knock off of an Ives from some other company other than Lionel?
This is kind of like what's the difference between the two photo's game!:laugh:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If the 156 has a bell frame with the two supports then that is it. Something made in the twenties. You can't see size in pictures. Some are more square than others.
It would go nice with my 610,612 coaches.


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

*Ok sos #2*

NEW PICS... Still think its a 156??? Thanks for all your responses. Im NOT goin to undertake restoring. And as youve all said people are way more skilled and know whta tTHey want this to be.


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

Hello.... Ive confirmed its a Lionel o gauge as there is a label metal plate attached underneath. please rease my newest post. thanks


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Well, you could have told us it says "Lionel" in big letters right there on the bottom plate. Would have saved us that Ives-possibility discussion!  (I guess you did in Post #1, but it read more like speculation, rather than actual plate i.d.)

I agree with T-Man ... looks to me like #156 would be best bet. Only subtle differences between this and a couple of other 150-series locos, some of which is trim ... and you're missing a bit of trim.

Paint strip and restoration is possible, but unless you're experienced in this, I'd strongly suggest you try to sell the loco as-is.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're going to try to paint it, you're going to have to disassemble it and prepare the shell properly, otherwise I wouldn't bother. Doubtless, anyone you'd sell it to is probably buying it to restore anyway.


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

Thanks fro your response. The paint is all but gone. and I now know the red trim is nail polish! UGH what a mess. I will post the pics. Thanks again.[


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well we know that Jack painted it the custom paint job.
He must have been a kid when he did it.

I wonder if Jack is still around?

Looks like someone added wiring.
Does it run?

Wouldn't it be remarkable if Jack saw his engine posted here.

Lionel took over Ives in 1924. 
Maybe it is a mixture of Lionel and Ives train?


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi Tman... "Jim" told me that as it looks like the loco I have was repaired on the roller plate that it is possible the connection to move this baby was not properly connected? Can you advise me what to do> Please...& Thanks. Rhiannon


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Girl,

That soldered repair on the roller pickup shouldn't adversely affect operation. Can you see if the wire from the top/inside of the black fiber pickup plate is intact and soldered OK to the top/inside of the roller plate? My guess is that that's the green wire, which runs up to one of the brush cans.

You should use Easy Off oven cleaner to remove all traces of paint on the shell ... spray in a throw-away lasagna pan, cover with tin foil for a while, then rinse and clean. A Dremel brush (or ScothBrite pad) buff will polish up the metal nicely thereafter.

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I guess it doesn't run?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Gudgirl56 said:


> Hi Tman... "Jim" told me that as it looks like the loco I have was repaired on the roller plate that it is possible the connection to move this baby was not properly connected? Can you advise me what to do> Please...& Thanks. Rhiannon



With two leads from an AC transformer touch the two marked areas to see if it runs. I'll get back on the problem. If it runs then take the left lead and touch a bottom center roller.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

But before you do don't have it sitting on it's wheels.

If it runs it will fly right off the table.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It would be nice to move this thread to O Scale. 

Just keep in mind this is a very old engine. O gage was only in existance for ten years when it was built. SO it is hard to tell how it will work. You may be dissappointed. I don't even have one but you are dealing with a camel back motor.

The picture is the backside of the center roller pickup plate One wire is soldered to a rivet and connected to a motor brush mount. You engine has no reversing mechanism just forwar if the wires are connected right.
This is the connection you have to check.










It will look better with new paint but the shell has a lot of dents and bends.
Be careful not to break a joint, I think they may have a solder joint and some rolled corners. You seem determined.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

My fault for not noticing earlier. I will move the thread to the O section. Good call.

As for the back of that contact plate ... I learned a lesson with on of my 1681's the hard way. Depending upon the specific motor layout, one needs to be careful that the wire solder joint isn't so big that it touches the underside of the motor's field plates. Happened to me, and the motor shorted out.

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I hope Girl can find it. Maybe post a link???


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I PM'd her about the move.

TJ


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

I will try your diagramed suggestions, I really want to see if it will run. Should there be brushplate?. I checked to see (and I could not ) but a wire was connected by solder to where I cant see under the roller bar area from the top of the engine. All I have done is put it back to gether, and have tightened a few looser screws. And its Blue now! UGH Iwas just not lovin that unpainted look. Its worse I think LOL


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

*A recent photo.*

I think its a 152 now. still want to get it running.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The plate sits on the armature and holds the brushes. Yours are at the red arrows. They should be making contact with the top plate to the armature that has three sections.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It appears to be a 153. There is a hole in the end for a reversing rod and two holes in the end for hand rails. A 152 does not have the holes for the hand rails. This is from "Lionel Trains, Standard of the World, 1900-1943" by Donald S. Fraley, M.D. Editor. A 156 has a platform on each end of the loco which the 153 does not have. It was made 1924-1925. 

BB


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## Gudgirl56 (Jan 25, 2011)

Tried and Nothing. So engine needs apro doing His/Her thing. But youve all been great. THANKS


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Gudgirl56 said:


> Tried and Nothing. So engine needs apro doing His/Her thing. But youve all been great. THANKS



It might just be a wire, though they look new. I wonder if who ever put them on did it right? If one of the wires has a bare spot and is touching the engine frame it would short it out.
Did you take a close look at the wires?

Does it do anything? Make a noise or something?

How did it turn from red to blue?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a 152 which I just opened up to see how it is wired. The wire from the pickup goes to the lower brush terminal, and the wire from the field coil goes to the upper brush terminal. I cannot see the other wire from the field coil but it must be grounded to the frame.

I bought this engine and two cars with the original box from my uncle many years ago. He had it when he was a kid.

BTW, the book I referenced was not totally correct. The handrails I have on this loco are like the 153 shown in the book, but number on this loco is clearly 152. 

Bruce Baker


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A closer picture would help.
Just make sure where the wires connect at the end of the blue arrows that they are separate from each other.
I don't think that engine has a forward or back side, I think both ends are the same so the connections wouldn't matter.

A close picture of where the field coil wire is might help.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The cab can be put on either direction, so it really doesn't matter which way the wires go to the brushes. 

In the picture, there is a wire coming out above the field coil which is to the left of the armature. 

BB


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gudgirl,

In addition to comments above, I suggest that you remove the brush plate to see and make sure that the brushes (little cylinders, likely) are there (with their springs) and riding up against the flat face (commutator) of the armature OK. I just want to make sure that you're not missing a brush/spring or that something is not making contact there properly.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, this loco does not use coil springs for the brushes. The brushes are mounted on the end of flat springs which are mounted on the brush plate. If you look at the pictures, you can see the flat springs. I haven't disassembled my motor, but the flat springs must be retained by the screws used for the terminals. 

I haven't run my 152 for probably 20 years. It was good to see it on the track again. I have a 602 baggage car and a pullman car that is not numbered. 

I cleaned out the commutator slots and oiled the bearings, gears and commutator and the engine runs very smooth.

BB


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Bruce,

Fair point, but I didn't suggest that the springs were either coil or flat ('cause I ddn't know!) 

Whatever type, I was just trying to let her know to make sure that the springs and brushes were doing their job OK.

And ... now I know ... _flat_ springs! :thumbsup:

Thanks,

TJ


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