# Question about incline and decline.



## Rock022 (Jan 2, 2017)

Hello all, I am totally new to the hobby. I don't have an electric train set yet, but my son has some wooden trains which sparked the interest.

As I understand, anything we do to the tracks, will have a mayor impact on derailment and other issues. 

I may try and start with a "Polar Express" locomotive. I understand that I may not be able to make some scenes, but I want to ask anyway. 

What are the maximum incline and decline degrees that a track can have and operate? I would like to try and duplicate the scene in the movie when it goes up in circles around the mountain, but I can foresee a problem with the incline already, and the train not even going up hill.

Also, on a decline. Can I have a drastic decline and be able to recover? Or will a drastic decline would derail the train? Can I even make tracks for a drastic decline? I do not see tracks sold that way, they are all flat.

God Bless.


----------



## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Hi Rock and welcome to the Model Train Forum.
Your minds eye is telling you the Polar Express mountain is doable, but in reality it will be a major undertaking.
The first thing is the radius of the track. If you notice in the movie, the passenger cars were curved in order to meet the curve of the track and go around the mountain. That technique hasn't been invented in the model railroad world yet. Your minimum radius will be 22" if you're using snap track or maybe smaller if you're using flex track, but then you will be limited on how sharp a curve your rolling stock will be able to do and stay on the track as well as not jackknife the couplers.
The second point is the number of loops you might be able to get around the mountain. Each loop will require a grade to get the train up the mountain. How steep the grade is depends on how long a train you have and how much the locomotive can pull. A grade in itself will produce a drag on the locomotive. Curves in the grade will amplify the drag even more. To pull maybe two passenger cars up a grade might limit you to a 5% grade. That works out to about 5" rise per 100" or a little over 8' of track. Remember now, you need transition track to get into the grade which might be about 20" of track at least. Another point to consider is the mountain. Will it support the track you are laying on it. The track needs to stay level (crosswise) so the train doesn't tip over as well as maintain a steady climb. Clearance for the rolling stock is required also to keep the cars from swiping the mountain on the inside of the curve. 
Now, when you are at the top of the mountain, where is your track going to go? You will need some kind of track support, i.e. bridge to get the track back down to the bottom level, once again at a 5% incline.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Bill Henning's Christmas tree train is a good example of a polar express going up an incline and down a decline. He used 1 power supply for the incline and another at a lower voltage for the decline. He wrote an article for OGR mag that went into some detail on how he made it.


----------



## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Lehigh74 said:


> He used 1 power supply for the incline and another at a lower voltage for the decline.


That's a good idea. Here's another one and I'm sort of surprised the loco didn't go airborne on the decent:


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are two types of Lionel Polar express,
the HO (?) battery powered train and the
O gauge traditional transformer powered train.

Which are you considering?

The track design and operating procedures
would be quite different for what you are
describing.

Don


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The video that Tom posted is a very cool layout and a better example of a PE mountain. It illustrates that you would need to have the incline and decline on one track. A derailment on the inner decline would be accessible for a tree, but not so much inside a mountain. And that would make it difficult to have one power supply for the incline and another for the decline. It also illustrates that with conventional operation, you would be slow on the climb, fast on the flats and very fast on the decline. TMCC/DCS/DCC would be a good way to keep the speed in check.

Lionel does make an HO PE. The Berk is 6-58018, the 3-car set is 6-58019 and there are a few add on cars. It also appears to have DCC.

http://www.lionel.com/search?query=ho scale


----------



## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Don, not nitpicking, but there is also the G scale Polar Express too.
And that one is also battery powered.

And to watch that train go up and come down that mountain is a real trip!


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Incline itself isn't that much of a problem. It's a simple matter of testing how much your chosen locomotive can pull up the various slopes. If you want a 2-3 car train, you can handle a much greater incline than if you want 8-10 cars. 5% is not unreasonable for a short train and a good loco.

The problems come in three other areas:
1) Curves on an incline increase friction, substantially decreasing the pulling ability of the loco over straight track. The tighter the curve, the worse the effect. 
2) Transitions on and off the incline. These have to be done very carefully, or derailments, stalls (due to digging in the nose or hooking a coupler or even the underside of a car), and random uncouplings can result. These issues are solved by using an "easement" in which the slope is gradually decreased or increased from the desired slope to flat track.
3) Space: Even a 5% slope isn't very steep, requiring 20 feet forward to gain one foot of elevation, so any real change in elevation in mountainous terrain requires a whole heck of a lot of track. The space requirements are only made worse by the required easements.

I considered a Polar Express in N Scale as a Christmas layout many years ago, but gave it up as unworkable, since I couldn't gain or lose enough elevation in my limited space to make it look good to my eye.


----------



## Rock022 (Jan 2, 2017)

Wow, thank you all for the fast response. I really like the videos. The tree looks fantastic, and the Polar Express gave me hope for what I seem to be planing. 

None the less, I have more questions.

What scale is the Polar Express in that video?

Can I install an engine on another car to help the Locomotive?

Is it possible to have magnet wheels?

Thank you


----------



## Rock022 (Jan 2, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> I considered a Polar Express in N Scale as a Christmas layout many years ago, but gave it up as unworkable, since I couldn't gain or lose enough elevation in my limited space to make it look good to my eye.


Thanks, I was considering N-Scale. But I am trying not to go with battery operated. HO, or O? But I still have much to study about what I can do before I even begin.


----------



## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Rock022 said:


> 1. What scale is the Polar Express in that video?
> 
> 2. Can I install an engine on another car to help the Locomotive?
> 
> ...


1. I'm not expert, but it looks like O scale Lionel Polar Express with an extra car.

2. My guess would be it would be too hard to get the speed and power matched and they'd be fighting each other.

3. Probably not a good idea because you'd undoubtedly pick up all kinds of debris on the wheels. That's a guess.

ADDED: I ran O gauge as a kid and I seem to recall back in the day the engine was sort of magnetic because of just how the motor was made, and it would pick up screws or other stuff. Seems I have that memory, but maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Both videos are O gauge.
You can double head locomotives in O gauge. There is generally a switch on conventional engines so they only go in one direction and don’t fight each other. Better to run DCS/TMCC and set them at the same scale mph (or in a lash up). Can probably double head in HO and other gauges too.
Some Lionel post war engines had magnatraction. Not really a problem picking up steel bits as long as you don’t use steel wool to clean the track. Modern tires work better in my opinion.


----------



## Rock022 (Jan 2, 2017)

Lehigh74 said:


> Both videos are O gauge.
> You can double head locomotives in O gauge. There is generally a switch on conventional engines so they only go in one direction and don’t fight each other. Better to run DCS/TMCC and set them at the same scale mph (or in a lash up). Can probably double head in HO and other gauges too.
> Some Lionel post war engines had magnatraction. Not really a problem picking up steel bits as long as you don’t use steel wool to clean the track. Modern tires work better in my opinion.


How hard is it to do? are there any videos that can help? And Magnatraction, where would I get that? 

Thank you.


----------



## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=1503537


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Rock

As you have found, Lionel trains are big. You'll need
a decent amount of space to build a layout unless you
plan to limit yours to climbing and descending 
a mountain such as seen in the videos.

If your space is limited you might look at HO trains.
You can build the same layout in about half the area
needed for 0 gauge.

Both scales have digital controls available that permit
you to run a consist (2 or more locos pulling one train)
easily. Both have extensive supply networks and
modellers with decades of experience to help you
when you hit a snag.

Many of us caution new modellers to avoid the
type tracks attached to road bed that come with
many 'sets' and go with flexible track that you can
bend to suit your track design. Track sccessories
such as turnouts and crossings are also more
available to match the flex.

In HO scale the 'general' rule is try to keep your
risers to no more than 2% grade. That does require
quite a big of track if you are going to elevate a lot.
Most likely 0 gauge locos can handle a steeper incline
if they are not pulling too many cars.

Keep us posted on your plans as they evolve.
Our members are here to help you when you
encounter a snag.

Don


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Rock022 said:


> How hard is it to do? are there any videos that can help? And Magnatraction, where would I get that?
> 
> Thank you.


Most diesels and electrics have working front and rear couplers. Besides steam switchers, most steamers do not…at least in O gauge. So, you could doublehead a PE diesel behind the PE Berk easily, but putting the diesel first would not be so easy.

Magnetraction was a feature of some postwar Lionel engines. You can usually find many PW locos at train meets, but you would need to know beforehand which models have magnatraction. I prefer traction tires to magnatraction, but Lionel did a very cool demo when they first made it. The train would seem to disappear under a mountain when in fact it declined a steep slope, made a loop and ascended a steep slope to emerge from the mountain.


----------



## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

That's pretty cool. Would like to see under the layout.

One of these days I'll break out my old O scale stuff and see what I have. From your explanation I would bet I have the magnatrack stuff, or what ever it is. I think my stuff was made in the late 50s or early sixties. I didn't have any high dollar stuff, and I put it through a ringer. Those old trains could be shot out of a cannon with no damage.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Tom_C said:


> That's pretty cool. Would like to see under the layout.


Here it is.

https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/digital-download/cttpdf035


----------



## Rock022 (Jan 2, 2017)

Well, I found this video, this is way out of my league. I would have to start more humble I guess.


----------



## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

It looks like a simple pin wheel would do. If you fasten a 2" dowel to a center point on a sheet of plywood and super glued a piece of string to it and then to a pencil, as you draw the track center it would decrease by 4.28" per revolution. May be better with a 3" PVC cap screwed down and then wind the string around that. 3" would decrease the radius by 9.42" per revolution, maybe to much. Just an idea to make a spiral. Then you could just pull it up like a big slinky!


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Rock022 said:


> Thanks, I was considering N-Scale. But I am trying not to go with battery operated. HO, or O? But I still have much to study about what I can do before I even begin.


Battery operated trains, in the common indoor scales, are actually rather rare. N, HO, and O are all typically transformer-driven.

There are some new technologies pushing the envelope in that area, but so far energy density (IOW, how long you can operate without a recharge, and how long it takes to fully charge) is too limiting for most of us.


----------



## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Tom_C said:


> That's pretty cool. Would like to see under the layout.
> 
> One of these days I'll break out my old O scale stuff and see what I have. From your explanation I would bet I have the magnatrack stuff, or what ever it is. I think my stuff was made in the late 50s or early sixties. I didn't have any high dollar stuff, and I put it through a ringer. Those old trains could be shot out of a cannon with no damage.


Magnetraction was the drive wheels were magnetized. Easiest way to tell is to put a piece of ferrous metal against the driver and see if it's attracted to it. If so, voila, magnetraction.

As others have said, traction tires are much more effective and can be replaced if they go bad.


----------

