# Start-up Issues



## DWL56 (Nov 9, 2021)

Hi folks,

My Grandson and I started to assemble our first layout. We laid our track as per the instructions we had and connected our MRC Tech3 controller. First we ran the locomotive and everything seemed good, but once we connected a few cars up it seemed every time the train went over our two turnouts the trailing cars jumped the tracks and just wouldn't stay in line. I wonder if these inexpensive rolling stock are too light and the trucks ( which are only made of plastic) are two cheaply made. The couplers on the loco and the cars are also made by different manufacturers. The track seems to be smooth enough but I think maybe we should change something but we don't know what.

Thanks,

DWL56


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

DWL56 said:


> I wonder if these inexpensive rolling stock are too light and the trucks ( which are only made of plastic) are two cheaply made.


I'm guessing you're all over it. Correct the car weight and replace the plastic wheelsets with metal.






Weight


Car Weight Weighting Your Rolling Stock What has probably become one of the most controversial recommendations of the NMRA is RP-20.1 Car Weight. An RP is a Recommended Practice. It has been created through testing and is a suggestion made to help your rolling stock perform better on both your...




www.nmra.org


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

A photo of the train set track as it is set up currently might help us too.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

What kind of track are you using?


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

You know you have to line up the turnouts for the direction of travel?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

DWL56 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> My Grandson and I started to assemble our first layout. We laid our track as per the instructions we had and connected our MRC Tech3 controller. First we ran the locomotive and everything seemed good, but once we connected a few cars up it seemed every time the train went over our two turnouts the trailing cars jumped the tracks and just wouldn't stay in line. I wonder if these inexpensive rolling stock are too light and the trucks ( which are only made of plastic) are two cheaply made. The couplers on the loco and the cars are also made by different manufacturers. The track seems to be smooth enough but I think maybe we should change something but we don't know what.
> 
> ...


There’s nothing wrong with plastic trucks…..it’s the wheels that need to be metal for smoother rolling….

Yes, pics would help….


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

DWL56 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> My Grandson and I started to assemble our first layout. We laid our track as per the instructions we had and connected our MRC Tech3 controller. First we ran the locomotive and everything seemed good, but once we connected a few cars up it seemed every time the train went over our two turnouts the trailing cars jumped the tracks and just wouldn't stay in line. I wonder if these inexpensive rolling stock are too light and the trucks ( which are only made of plastic) are two cheaply made. The couplers on the loco and the cars are also made by different manufacturers. The track seems to be smooth enough but I think maybe we should change something but we don't know what.
> 
> ...


DWL56;

There are many things that can cause derailments on turnouts.
The turnouts themselves.
The "gauge" (distance between) of the wheels, and of the rails.
The weight of the cars, etc.

To help you find out which one(s) you're experiencing, we need more information. 

What brand, and scale, is your train, and your turnouts?
Do the derailments happen only on the turnouts, or other spots along the track as well? 
Have you tried putting something heavy on the cars?

Try this trick. Run the train as slowly as possible through the turnout. Get your eyeball down as close to the top of the rail as you can. Try to see exactly where on the turnout the wheels come up off the rails. Likely candidates are the "frog" where four rails come together in an 'X' pattern. The frog is located about 1/3 of the way through the turnout measuring from the wider (two track) end. Another likely culprit is the "points." These are the two rails that move side-to-side to select which route the train is supposed to take through the turnout.

It will be an excellent investment to buy yourself an NMRA track gauge.
This essential tool cost about $6 and can be ordered from www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com 
Starting on page # 8, the file below titled "Improving Atlas turnouts" shows an NMRA gauge being used to check the many critical areas of a turnout. The same areas should be checked on other brands of turnouts, not only Atlas.

If your turnouts happen to be Bachmann EZ-Track turnouts, then that's a serious problem. They are the worst commercial turnouts available!  
They have a considerable history of causing derailments, and of just plain breaking down. If possible, you might return them for a refund. If not, replace them with a better brand. The file "All about turnouts" has a list of my personal quality ratings near the end. Not surprisingly, Bachmann EZ-Track is at the bottom. Peco, Micro Engineering, Walthers, and Kato, are all rated much higher.

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

It may be possible that the flanges on the plastic wheels are oversized and riding up on the frog. Or possibly, but doubtfully, splitting the points.
Like others stated, replace the wheel sets with metal wheels. The trucks should be fine. This alone will improve things no matter what.
If the problem persists after that, we can figure out the problem based on if it happens both directions, all cars or just two specific cars, where in the turnout the derailment occurs, etc.

Are these freight cars or passenger cars that you bought separately?


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Traction Fan's post about Bachmann EZ track is why I asked about what track you are using. If that's the case you can be pretty sure that's your problem.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DWL56, you sound like you are in danger of becoming another poster child for why people leave the hobby. Unfortunately, model train layouts just aren't "plug and play" systems, despite what the marketing text on train sets may lead you to believe. Those train sets are notorious for including cheap components that are more likely to frustrate than to perform. People quit the hobby because they get frustrated when trains won't run.

The specific manufacturer of the various cars, track components, etc. doesn't really matter very much (except that some are poor quality). Telling us exactly what you have, and what scale, will help.

Note that the comments below assume you are in HO scale; if not, the specifics of each answer may be a little different (although the concepts don't change)

First of all, track. You need quality components; if they are out of gauge or if you have low-quality turnouts, that's a recipe for trouble. And it needs to be kink free (no sudden bends where two pieces join) and without bumps -- whether caused by misaligned joiners or a rough surface underneath the track.

Couplers: they all need to be the same type, either knuckle or hook horn. Then, they need to be free from excessive vertical play and mounted at the correct height. If they aren't, they will uncouple at inconvenient times.

Wheels: plastic wheels don't run as smoothly as metal ones, but they do work if everything else is okay. They need to be in gauge, with the proper flange depth, and they also need to be aligned (that is, the rear wheels in a truck must be directly behind the front ones, and to a lesser extent, the front and rear trucks must be aligned too. The wheels must spin freely in the trucks.

The Standards Gauge referred to by Traction Fan can help you check all this.

Lastly, car weight. In HO, the recommended weight is 1 oz plus 1/2 oz per inch of car length. That is MUCH heavier than many cheap cars come out of the box. You need a good digital scale to weigh them (get a postal scale so that your wife doesn't kill you when you swipe her good kitchen scale). Weight can be added using fishing sinkers, lead shot, washers, automotive wheel weights, and special hobby weights, just to name a few.

So are you prepared to invest the time, effort, and probably money to get this set-up working? If so, check the items above and give us specific details on what exactly is wrong, and we can help you correct it.


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## DWL56 (Nov 9, 2021)

Gramps said:


> What kind of track are you using?


Atlas. Code 100


CTValleyRR said:


> DWL56, you sound like you are in danger of becoming another poster child for why people leave the hobby. Unfortunately, model train layouts just aren't "plug and play" systems, despite what the marketing text on train sets may lead you to believe. Those train sets are notorious for including cheap components that are more likely to frustrate than to perform. People quit the hobby because they get frustrated when trains won't run.
> 
> The specific manufacturer of the various cars, track components, etc. doesn't really matter very much (except that some are poor quality). Telling us exactly what you have, and what scale, will help.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your help

We are in HO scale on an Atlas code 100 track. I think we should try getting rid of the cheap plastic wheels and trucks as they just snap on and don’t screw on and then we’ll try weighing down the cars. My one concern is how can I get good metal wheels and suitable trucks to mount on these cheap cars? Or should we just shelve them and purchase better rolling stock?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

DWL56 said:


> Atlas. Code 100
> 
> Thanks for your help
> 
> We are in HO scale on an Atlas code 100 track. I think we should try getting rid of the cheap plastic wheels and trucks as they just snap on and don’t screw on and then we’ll try weighing down the cars. My one concern is how can I get good metal wheels and suitable trucks to mount on these cheap cars? Or should we just shelve them and purchase better rolling stock?


DWL56;

You say you are using Atlas brand code 100 track. That's fine, but are your turnouts also Atlas brand? 
If so they may need to be modified to prevent derailments. The necessary modifications are shown in the file, "Improving Atlas turnouts" that I sent you. 

Replacement "wheelsets" (two wheels on the same axle) are sold by Intermountain, Kadee, and Fox Valley models. All three brands are excellent quality and you can order them through your local train shop, www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com The wheelsets are available in several axle lengths, designed to fit different brands of trucks. What brand of trucks are you using. If you bought a train set made by Athearn then your trucks will be Athearn too. Kadee sells HO-scale all-metal trucks, with metal wheels in them. These are excellent and add weight to the bottom of the car, where it will do the most good in keeping the car on track. You might consider this option.

Replacing the cars is another good idea, though just replacing the wheels, and adding weight to the cars, may be enough. Good brands of cars are Kadee, Athearn, & Intermountain. Others can probably suggest more brands.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I would leave the trucks on, seeing as they are the snap in type. Just remove the wheelsets (axle & all) from the trucks and replace with sets that have metal wheels. It’s easy; just apply light pressure on one end, sort of pulling the ends away from the axle until one end drops a bit. 
If the couplers are mounted to the trucks rather than the car, this will definitely be easier than replacing the trucks…. And then having to mount new coupler pockets too.

Important: There are different sizes of wheels. 36 inch diameter, 33 inch, 28 inch. The vast majority of cars will have 33 inch wheels, so 9.5 times out of 10 that's what you’ll want to buy.

Try just upgrading the wheels only and see what kind of improvement you get. In fact, before doing all of them, roll 1 car “matchbox style” down the track to see how far it goes by itself on plastic wheels, then do the same with metal wheels. You’ll see a big difference in rolling resistance (aka how soon each stops). But that turnout issue is the main thing to resolve.

Incidentally, a couple other possible culprits came to mind. One plastic wheel may have a burr on the inner side from the molding process which is catching on the turnout point or guard rails. Or, less likely, a coupler is drooping and the magnetic pin that hangs down is too low, catching on something. 
Is it always the same car(s)? Have you tried removing any or rearranging their order? Turning which direction is going forward? I think we all sorta jumped ahead of ourselves with upgrades…which are good don't get me wrong, but we don’t want to miss the forest for the trees. Especially if it’s a $0 fix on a droopy coupler or something. If you get real close and watch it derail over & over, you’re bound to see the cause after 2 or 3 times.

The brands Traction Fan listed are great, but may include some sticker shock. Walthers cars are reliable and reasonably priced for the level of detail. 
Personally I love Accurail, Bowser, and Atlas cars. Accurail are kits you need to assemble but they’re entry level. A 10 year old could assemble them. They have molded on detail, but they’re cheap… like $12 cheap versus $30. Same for Bowser kits, entry level but great stuff! Bowser also sells RTR aka pre-built. Atlas is two steps up, or probably more, from there.


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## DWL56 (Nov 9, 2021)

traction fan said:


> DWL56;
> 
> You say you are using Atlas brand code 100 track. That's fine, but are your turnouts also Atlas brand?
> If so they may need to be modified to prevent derailments. The necessary modifications are shown in the file, "Improving Atlas turnouts" that I sent you.
> ...


Thanks a lot TF
The turnouts are a Atlas as it was a starter package. We’ll try to source some better wheels, add some weight, and change our couplers for starters. I do notice a height difference in where the couplers mount from car to car even if both are say Athern cars. How do you folks get everything on the same level?

Regards

DWL56


OilValleyRy said:


> I would leave the trucks on, seeing as they are the snap in type. Just remove the wheelsets (axle & all) from the trucks and replace with sets that have metal wheels. It’s easy; just apply light pressure on one end, sort of pulling the ends away from the axle until one end drops a bit.
> If the couplers are mounted to the trucks rather than the car, this will definitely be easier than replacing the trucks…. And then having to mount new coupler pockets too.
> 
> Important: There are different sizes of wheels. 36 inch diameter, 33 inch, 28 inch. The vast majority of cars will have 33 inch wheels, so 9.5 times out of 10 that's what you’ll want to buy.
> ...


Thanks for your insight and I appreciate you taking time to assist us. We want to make this as enjoyable as possible and cost effective too.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Coupler height differences? Considering you’re new, photos would be easier than trying to get an accurate car type. Suffice to say, that could be a few reasons, some legit some mistakes. 
Large capacity cars, over 100 tons, use 36 inch diameter wheels. The trucks might not be seated properly… The question in my mind is, is that coupler higher than it should be or…. Lower? Which then coincides with it maybe snagging the turnout(s).

Prices can be pretty crazy, we’ll all agree. I’ll pay $35 for a nice caboose, but general freight cars…. Even $25 is steep in my mind. I’m happy getting freight cars 2nd hand at train shows for $5 each and doing $5-$10 worth of upgrades. Some folks prefer fewer cars with awesome detail. Many have small layouts and don’t need 500 cars. For those who run long trains on large layouts need to compromise with more abundant “dressed up” low cost cars or get divorced lol (half-joking)
Another bonus to low cost cars, it’s no great loss if they impact a cement floor, or you want to try making them rusty. Or decide you want to try cutting the molded details off and add after market wire stuff, etc.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

I think you need to get your track working better. Do not spend money upgrading cars yet. I run the cheap, toylike cars on my layout and they stay on the track., plastic wheels, lousy couplers and all.

Can you post pictures of your trackwork?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Depending on what kind of cars you have, the shop on trucks can't easily be converted to better quality, screw-on ones. You have to plug the hole, then drill and tap it. Try just swapping wheels first. But even before you do that, check the obvious. Just like your car, wheels that are out of alignment cause extra friction. 

I agree with Dennis, though. The first thing you need to do is eliminate any problems with your track. 

A good rule of thumb for troubleshooting is if the problem always occurs at the same spot, suspect your track; if it happens more or less at random, suspect the rolling stock.

Some pictures would really help. Close up, in focus, and well-lighted. And order that Standards Gauge!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

DWL56 said:


> Thanks a lot TF
> The turnouts are a Atlas as it was a starter package. We’ll try to source some better wheels, add some weight, and change our couplers for starters. I do notice a height difference in where the couplers mount from car to car even if both are say Athern cars. How do you folks get everything on the same level?
> 
> Regards
> ...


The most common problems with Atlas "Snap Switch" turnouts are the points being too blunt and the guard rail flangeways too wide. Both these problems, and the simple, cheap, fixes for them are covered in the file "Improving Atlas turnouts" that I sent you. The points can simply be filed a little thinner at the ends. To correct the guard rail flangeways problem you will need an NMRA standards gauge like the larger, HO-scale one in the photo below. The HO gauge is also shown being used in the file, starting on page 8.

Couplers do need to be at the same level on all your cars and your locomotive. This is primarily to prevent unwanted uncoupling, rather than derailments though. A coupler trip pin that is hanging too low can snag on turnouts & rerailers, and cause derailments, but otherwise couplers are not often the cause of derailments. Its possible, but relatively rare.
Kadee makes a combination gauge that checks the height of the coupler knuckle, and the trip pin or "air hose" that hangs down from the coupler.
The Kadee gauge has a coupler mounted on one end. You set the gauge on the track, and run each car up to it, one end at a time. The coupler on the car should be exactly the same height as the one on the gauge. Kadee sells couplers with under slung & over slung knuckles to fit cars which can't get the right coupler height any other way.

As for adjusting the height of couplers, that depends on how the couplers are mounted. They may be mounted to the trucks, or to the body of the car. Truck-mounted couplers are very difficult to adjust. You can try to VERY GENTLY bend the arm that holds the coupler box up or down a little bit. There is a risk of breaking the arm off the truck though.

To lower a body-mounted coupler, shims can be placed between the coupler box, and the car floor. To raise the coupler, raise the whole car a bit by inserting washers between the trucks and the body of the car. Kaydee sells shims & washers for this purpose. While this works with trucks that are fastened to the car by screws, or removable pins, it would be difficult/impossible with the snap-on trucks you're saddled with. This is one of several disadvantages of buying a train set, vs. individual cars & locos. The quality of each part included in most sets is usually pretty bad. There are exceptions. Kato brand sets are made up of all high quality, reliable, components, however, they are more expensive than say Bachmann sets. Kato also makes more sets in N-scale than HO-scale, but the ones available in HO-scale are excellent too.

Traction Fan


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## DWL56 (Nov 9, 2021)

traction fan said:


> The most common problems with Atlas "Snap Switch" turnouts are the points being too blunt and the guard rail flangeways too wide. Both these problems, and the simple, cheap, fixes for them are covered in the file "Improving Atlas turnouts" that I sent you. The points can simply be filed a little thinner at the ends. To correct the guard rail flangeways problem you will need an NMRA standards gauge like the larger, HO-scale one in the photo below. The HO gauge is also shown being used in the file, starting on page 8.
> 
> Couplers do need to be at the same level on all your cars and your locomotive. This is primarily to prevent unwanted uncoupling, rather than derailments though. A coupler trip pin that is hanging too low can snag on turnouts & rerailers, and cause derailments, but otherwise couplers are not often the cause of derailments. Its possible, but relatively rare.
> Kadee makes a combination gauge that checks the height of the coupler knuckle, and the trip pin or "air hose" that hangs down from the coupler.
> ...


Thanks T Fan
I see we have some work to do to fine tune this layout. We will pick up a gauge and round up some parts and once we have tried the suggestions from your posts then we'll see where we're at.

DWL56


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## johnccaravello (Oct 14, 2021)

Old_Hobo said:


> There’s nothing wrong with plastic trucks…..it’s the wheels that need to be metal for smoother rolling….
> 
> Yes, pics would help….


Take a close look at the turnout. Be sure the points are tight against the rail in both directions. It doesn't take much to derail light cars with plastic wheels. Plastic wheels attract dirt easily and that sometimes is enough for them to climb up the rail or the frog of the switch. If everything is clean. Try, using your hands manually, push one car at a time to see if they stay on the track smoothly. It only takes one car , the culprit, to derail the rest of the train. Metal wheels would definitely help if you have a problem car. It's cheaper to buy a bag of them and replace them yourself if you can. Just be careful popping the old plastic wheelsets out and gently pushing in the new metal ones. Check online for prices, find someone in the forum that may have some to sell, or watch for a local train show. I've probably given you too much info. but I've been modeling H.O. for 60 years of my life. Also, I was a Locomotive Engineer for most of my life running freight trains mostly. It can be frustrating but as you learn new tricks from fellow modelers you'll be amazed at how much better your trains will run and you'll be a happy Model Railroader.


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## DWL56 (Nov 9, 2021)

johnccaravello said:


> Take a close look at the turnout. Be sure the points are tight against the rail in both directions. It doesn't take much to derail light cars with plastic wheels. Plastic wheels attract dirt easily and that sometimes is enough for them to climb up the rail or the frog of the switch. If everything is clean. Try, using your hands manually, push one car at a time to see if they stay on the track smoothly. It only takes one car , the culprit, to derail the rest of the train. Metal wheels would definitely help if you have a problem car. It's cheaper to buy a bag of them and replace them yourself if you can. Just be careful popping the old plastic wheelsets out and gently pushing in the new metal ones. Check online for prices, find someone in the forum that may have some to sell, or watch for a local train show. I've probably given you too much info. but I've been modeling H.O. for 60 years of my life. Also, I was a Locomotive Engineer for most of my life running freight trains mostly. It can be frustrating but as you learn new tricks from fellow modelers you'll be amazed at how much better your trains will run and you'll be a happy Model Railroader.


Thanks for your help John. We want to get everything sorted out before we put the track down permanently and tackle the rest of the build.

DWL56


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