# Are the Lionel Challengers fixed?



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Mr. Muffin's update says he will have them at the end of the next week or the week after. Lionel do a quick turn? Issues weren't what we thought? Looking forward to the reviews on this baby. Maybe someday if they are reliable I'll pick one up on the used market.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Since they're a BTO, and suspect to boot, I can wait.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

No dog in this fight for me as I passed on this issue of the Challenger but it seems clear that they are now arriving at dealers. I can't tell much from this "first look" video posted by Legacy Station but here it is for those anxious to see what the fuss is about:






No definitive word is out on what problem Lionel identified and had to address or at least not as far as I have heard.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Is this a serious question? 

If all the reports are correct, they went to Lionel, found issues, were repairing the issue before sent out. 

I'm pretty sure if that's the case they didn't send them out with a *known* defect. It has been reported the delay was to fix the same issue that the RS11 and PAs were having.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

MartyE said:


> Is this a serious question? YES
> 
> If all the reports are correct, they went to Lionel, found issues, were repairing the issue before sent out.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if that's the case they didn't send them out with a *known* defect. It has been reported the delay was to fix the same issue that the RS11 and PAs were having.


I know it was discussed but was it confirmed?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> I know it was discussed but was it confirmed?


If you mean by Lionel, no. Plus I would not expect Lionel to say anything unless forced to in a public forum, maybe the next York but by then people will know whether these models are OK or not.

All the information about the defect being inability to retain engine ID is second-hand although it seems credible to me. The relative speed with which Lionel was able to ship these out makes me wonder if the defect, whatever it was, affected the whole shipment or not. I imagine however that they would have had to check every engine, which I am sure has not been their practice to date.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Lionel’s lack of communication on issues like these is a major reason why I have such a low view of their management when these issues arise. I just have a fundamental difference in how things should be addressed. Really... how hard is it to tell consumers that (a) we found xyz problem, (b) this is how xyz problem was resolved, and (c) product is now being shipped to dealers.

Instead, we typically here crickets — encouraging enthusiasts to wonder what the heck is going on, not to mention it also stokes the rumor mill unnecessarily. No reason for this lack of communication. But it is what it is, and it’s not gonna change with this crew at the helm.

Having said all this, folks just send in their wish-lists of pre-orders every catalog, like these issues never happened — this rewarding bad behavior. Simply amazing!!! 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lionel’s lack of communication on issues like these is a major reason why I have such a low view of their management when these issues arise. I just have a fundamental difference in how things should be addressed. Really... how hard is it to tell consumers that (a) we found xyz problem, (b) this is how xyz problem was resolved, and (c) product is now being shipped to dealers.
> 
> Instead, we typically here crickets — encouraging enthusiasts to wonder what the heck is going on, not to mention it also stokes the rumor mill unnecessarily. No reason for this lack of communication. But it is what it is, and it’s not gonna change with this crew at the helm.
> 
> ...


100% agree. Lionel is not doing themselves any favors keep everyone in the dark about this stuff.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2019)

Seems to me that it would be a win/win for Lionel if they indeed had an issue with these engines, caught the issue before shipping them to the dealers, then corrected them, and made a public statement as to what happened. In this case, silence is NOT golden. Just sets up a lot of needless talk and assumptions (correct or not correct) because of a recent history of issues and just magnifies a negative spotlight on them.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

“Having said all this, folks just send in their wish-lists of pre-orders every catalog, like these issues never happened — this rewarding bad behavior. Simply amazing!!! 

David”

The amazing part is all the same folks complaining are the first ones to buy more of a known quality control problem. 

No official reason why the VL Challengers were withheld, only rumors, therefore, no one knows if they’re “fixed”...

I find it hard to believe they unboxed, tested/corrected the fault (whatever that was), boxed and have shipped to dealers in a matter of less than a couple weeks.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I don't think its unreasonable to think an ID issue could not be repaired in 15 minutes. Take it out of the bov, remove the shell, plug the programer in, replace the shell and put in back in the box. 
Someone else could do the packing and unpacking.
An optimist would think this is a good sign that Lionel is heading off potential problems before releasing them to their dealers.
Also likely explains why service was not accepting items in July when that was what was originally stated.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> I don't think its unreasonable to think an ID issue could not be repaired in 15 minutes. Take it out of the bov, remove the shell, plug the programer in, replace the shell and put in back in the box.
> Someone else could do the packing and unpacking.
> An optimist would think this is a good sign that Lionel is heading off potential problems before releasing them to their dealers.
> Also likely explains why service was not accepting items in July when that was what was originally stated.
> ...


Question is how many in a production run? 100, 200, 500, 1000? Plus with the service dept move, it happen awfully fast.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Think positive. No reason to believe they did them all before releasing a few. Right now all dealers are not reporting they have them in stock or expecting them soon.

Pete


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

This is interesting Paint Scheme. Not for me but someone may like it.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

It’s uglier than the catalog rendering!


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I never met a steam engine I didn’t like...until now.:laugh:


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

kstrains said:


> This is interesting Paint Scheme. Not for me but some may like it.
> ....


If I’m not mistaken, I think Ryan from Lionel mentioned this fantasy paint scheme was the 2nd most popular behind one of the UP models. So that’s why we see Lionel offering fantasy paint schemes.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That is one UGLY paint scheme! What were they smoking?


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

by chance do these use the dual smoke unit like the VL big boy has? and do they alternate stack smoke to chuff of each set of drive wheels? I have a reason for asking this.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Few things I noticed in the video posted above. That whistle is awesome but only four chuffs per revolution not eight and no out of sync chuffing? What’s up with that?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Lionel didn’t get the 49er brown even close-like it matters!

Maybe next time they’ll give us the white and TTG Challenger many asked for....


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

If I ever choose to change my Christmas Layout to a Southwestern type of theme instead of my Southern theme, this engine might go well with Department 56's Snow Village La Fiesta Resturante for scenery! 

View attachment 503332



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

empire builder said:


> by chance do these use the dual smoke unit like the VL big boy has? and do they alternate stack smoke to chuff of each set of drive wheels? I have a reason for asking this.


I think I know what your reason is. It doesn't look from the video like they alternate; the original VL Challenger did not have that feature, which I think is exclusive to the VL Big Boy. 

The smoke unit itself might be the same; looking at the Lionel replacement part photo of the VL Big Boy dual chamber main stack smoke unit, it appears similar to other dual chamber stack and whistle smoke units I have seen used in recent Legacy engines. (Note however that the original VL Challenger smoke unit had a metal bowl and metal fan impeller housing, which I don't think Lionel uses any more.) I have not checked the wiring but in any case I think all the controls are not on the smoke unit itself but on the RCMC and fan PCB. So the smoke unit itself is "dumb" and won't provide alternating smoke output on its own.

P.S. I vaguely remember taking apart my VL Challenger's stack smoke unit and it was a dual chamber model but one chamber might have been for the whistle smoke and the other for the stacks with a funnel that went to both. This seems to be confirmed by the replacement parts list that shows this funnel for that unit:







I can't remember how the whistle smoke was connected and can't see a part for it on the list.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

In this case I won't fault Lionel for any communication issues. This situation seems just like MTH's was last year with their Railking Scale FP45s. They arrived in November or thereabouts and MTH actually posted on their website they were available. But before any shipped - within a day or two - MTH caught some paint blemishes and sent the whole lot back to be done right. They changed the website to indicate the FP45s were delayed until June 2019. 

If I didn't have someone like Pat at Pat's trains who looked into the delay and why, and told me, I would not have known the details. I'm not sure it matters either. I trust MTH to do the right thing and they did, frustrating as the delay is for me (I had two Santa Fe FP45s on pre-order and really, really want them). 

Lionel seems to have done much the same thing - handling it as quietly as they could. But at least (hopefully) they handled it. I'm okay with the communication, and frankly I expect they will fix them right: they've built a lot of big scale Challenger before and got in right those times. They know how.

BTW - I understand the FP45s ought to be at MTH this month and to dealer early next month. I hope so . . .


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2019)

Lionel must surely have a glass jaw by now after taking so many punches regarding QC issues. For me if they wish to be quiet about fixing a problem with the new Challenger I'm ok with this. This shows me that somebody listened and somebody is trying. Hopefully this will be a continuing practice...quietly or announced. Questions about this could be asked in the fall at York.

Gary.


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## vash44 (Jan 14, 2018)

Looking forward to a corrected 3985. (Fingers crossed for no out of box issues).

Has anyone heard if the diecast tenders will make it with the Challengers?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

empire builder said:


> by chance do these use the dual smoke unit like the VL big boy has? and do they alternate stack smoke to chuff of each set of drive wheels? I have a reason for asking this.


No chance of the dual smoke. I'm surprised about the observation that they don't have the articulated chuffing, even the ERR RailSounds Commander manages to have an articulated sound set!


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> ....
> 
> Lionel seems to have done much the same thing - handling it as quietly as they could. But at least (hopefully) they handled it. I'm okay with the communication, and frankly I expect they will fix them right: they've built a lot of big scale Challenger before and got in right those times. They know how.
> 
> ....


Lee, I don't expect Lionel (or any company in general) to air dirty laundry with every single issue that makes its way into overseas-manufactured products nowadays. However, they DO know that THIS one has been talked about, because I can tell you (from past personal experience ) that they monitor the other place quite closely. So they knew people were talking, yet they chose to say nothing.

As far as Lionel knowing how to build these puppies... I will say this: SOMEBODY knows how to build them. However WHO that somebody is does NOT seem to be a constant. Product re-issues haven't had the most stellar track record these days -- whether they be locomotives or simple rolling stock. And that most certainly has translated into a MUCH smaller pre-order list for me this year. In fact, the few boxcars and the 0-6-0T locomotive from 2019Vol2 are a mere fraction of what I could have pre-ordered if Lionel hasn't been so beset with quality issues across the board. 

Indeed, there seems to be a stark contrast between the excitement surrounding catalog publications vs. what actually gets manufactured 12-18 months later. Just comes with the territory these days. And toy train enthusiasts seem to be a very forgiving audience in that regard, because there are so few players in the business of supplying toy trains. So it is what it is. 

David


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

The Challenger 3985...








Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Thanks for posting the video. Again where are the articulated chuffing???? And the drivers of both engines should be out of sync.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm kinda' amazed they don't have articulated sounds!


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Interesting observation on the non-articulated chuffs. I'm pretty sure my Lionel N&W Y6b has that feature, and the Y6b wasn't even an official VisionLine offering -- certainly was VL worthy in terms of detail, but it was a standard product offering in the catalog. 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well I won’t be buying one on the used market with it sounding like that. I’d be better off upgrading my MTH challenger to PS3 and downloading the latest sound from the last run.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Thanks for posting the video. Again where are the articulated chuffing???? And the drivers of both engines should be out of sync.


Well, maybe that was the defect/issue all along rather than the engine ID? If so I can’t see what they could do to fix it given that the running gear is fixed in place although I suppose the sounds can be re-programed. Very odd.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm kinda' amazed they don't have articulated sounds!


Yeah, you’re not the only one. Lionel misses again. This time on a Vision product.

To be fair, I checked the catalog and no mention of the articulated sound. Who the hell would want one without the articulated sound?

Surely Lionel ran one prior to delivery and noticed this. If they did, they simply chose to ship it anyway.

I received my yesterday (my last Lionel order to fulfill) and decided not to post anything until the videos/possible problems surfaced. 

I’ll be returning mine tomorrow. 

What a mess Lionel continues to be in.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> ....
> 
> Surely Lionel ran one prior to delivery and noticed this. If they did, they simply chose to ship it anyway.
> 
> ....


Look at the catalogs these days, folks!!! Lionel is producing WAY TOO MANY products, and this is what happens. Stuff we just expect to be there (i.e., articulated Railsounds on an articulated locomotive) falls by the wayside. This is, after all, a re-issue of the VL Challengers from years ago. I'm sure THEY had articulated sounds, right? (I sold mine to somebody on this forum , so I can't confirm first-hand. But I can't believe the Lionel of years past would let something like articulated Railsounds slip.)

So what's different THIS time around, that something like this would fall through the cracks. Like we've said time and time before... ya just can't make up this stuff. It's very sad... and I was REALLY looking forward to my Western Maryland Challenger too -- thinking this should be defect-free, because it's a re-issue... what could go wrong? Right??? Silly me... I should KNOW better!!!  We ALL should.  I even tracked down a matching Western MD extended vision caboose (with the matching fireball logo) that Lionel produced YEARS ago.

David


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

David we seem to be expected to pay sky high prices for lower quality products and to order them with starry eyed joy.

How much would it have cost to have what is considered to be the correct sounds? As you say, this isn’t something new.

Hopefully everyone who ordered these will enjoy them.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

You’re right David, the last version did have it.

Lionel knew **** well it was this way prior to shipment. It really ****** me off they delivered it without a great feature.

Like I said, this was only bought to honor a preorder. I knew better and this mess arrived at my door step. Oh well, it’ll all be over after a quick run to FedEx.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

No articulateds here so I have to ask, aren't the two chuffs always in sync with each other or do they actually get out of sync like the real deals? If always in sync then its just a programming exercise and really no excuse why these don't have that. I could see if they were able to get out of sync then that might require extra cost hardware but even then its only a few bucks.

Pete


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2019)

AAAAAWE CRAP!! Is there a fix for the new Challenger not having articulated sounds? Also, what about adding another smoke unit up front or is this just wishful thinking? We were so looking forward to this locomotive. Does anyone know exactly what the fix was that Lionel did to these locos?

Gary.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm waiting to hear a longer video, maybe the startup doesn't have them and they separate as it runs. Time will tell, pretty hard to believe they actually whiffed that badly on the audio!


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

The 2010 VL Challenger was cataloged with the following sound feature noted:

"TruRail Articulated Chuffs – Prototypical four-chuffs per drive wheel revolution for each engine, with the phase relation between the two engines slipping as operating conditions vary, or under user control."

No such description is in the catalog for this issue of the Challenger. It does have the wheel slip feature that the VL Big Boy has but if that's a substitute for articulated sounds it really doesn't cut it.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is getting crazy, another Lionel product where they botched it. What the heck, are they going to blame this on their new sound engineer like the H10? The saga continues at Lionel


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

It seems sounds is not the only issue, have you guys seen the 49er challengers? Ok, it's hideous but the worst problem is that they got the 49er brown completely wrong and at only $1700.00. 
How long will Lionel keep making these mistakes and QC issues. Is anybody in charge?

Dave


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If they really omitted such an important sound feature on a Vision Line product, I think it's time to go back and offer Rudy three times what he used to make to come back! One of Lionel's "ace in the hole" features was superior sound, if they lose that edge, it'll be a long way back! The VL-BB managed to have wheel slip and articulated sound, all in one package!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

waitin' 4 the train said:


> AAAAAWE CRAP!! *Is there a fix for the new Challenger not having articulated sounds?*
> 
> Gary.


Gary,

_There is a fix_-*return for refund*. I did exactly THAT this morning.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If they really omitted such an important sound feature on a Vision Line product, I think it's time to go back and offer Rudy three times what he used to make to come back! One of Lionel's "ace in the hole" features was superior sound, if they lose that edge, it'll be a long way back! The VL-BB managed to have wheel slip and articulated sound, all in one package!


John, you took the words right out of my mouth. Great Legacy Railsounds has always been Lionel's unequivocal differentiator in the marketplace where they would NEVER cut corners. In some cases, we'd even get a pleasant surprise bonus feature. So if they goofed on something as basic as the articulated sounds for this version of the Challenger (and a VL offering no less), then I really can't see how they're encouraging folks to pre-order more BTO offerings going forward -- no matter how cool things look in the catalog. We can all call-out a litany of recent products that have missed the mark in one way or another. So THIS is not an isolated incident, but it might be a first in the audio department.

This stuff just never ends though... and the customer experience seems to be on a continuous downhill trend. Earlier this year, I returned over $800 worth of poorly made heavyweight passenger cars because I was so disappointed in spending that kind of money on crap. It seems Lionel has become oblivious to the fact that enthusiasts are spending premium, hard-earned $$$ on this stuff, and we want a fabulous buying experience in return. Sadly, that's not what we're getting these days.

David


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Just out of morbid curiosity, I listened to Ryan Kunkle's video embedded in the 2018 cataloged that featured the new VL Challenger. When he came to talk about the model after describing the prototype, he devoted a lot of time to sound features but said nary a word about there being no articulated sound effects as in previous VL steamers.

I have noted from the videos that the new VL Challengers also have the running gear fixed in synch/same position, which was not the case with the 2010 VL Challenger. Mine is shown below and you can see that the rods are not synched although the difference in position is slight:









On mine, the articulated effects are only present within a limited low speed range and at higher speed are not present.

If Lionel planned to eliminate this effect they kept quiet about it, which slightly leaves a bad taste in the mouth. So it's not in the catalog list of features but it seems like pulling a fast one not to mention it in any preview. 

It does give me pause for thought whether this feature is also gone from currently cataloged or future articulated steamers. It's not mentioned in the 4014 or EM-1 catalog descriptions (including the ones on the Lionel website). I can't imagine Lionel deleting this from the newest Big Boy models but now the issue has been raised they are going to be asked to come clean about what the new articulated steamers include or not in this respect. 

On the other hand, and maybe adding to the mystery, my Legacy AC-9 has articulated sounds not mentioned in the catalog but the running gear is fixed in synch.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, all of the Lionel and MTH articulated scale steamers have the drivers locked together at the same speed. The fact that they're "not in sync" is simply how the drive shaft is assembled when you put the front power truck on. You have four possibilities for the position.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2019)

Very simple solution to all of this, just..................................

*DON'T PRE-ORDER.*


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *DON'T PRE-ORDER.*


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually, all of the Lionel and MTH articulated scale steamers have the drivers locked together at the same speed. The fact that they're "not in sync" is simply how the drive shaft is assembled when you put the front power truck on. You have four possibilities for the position.


I get that point. It’s just that, trying o connect up my own dots, I wonder why these models appear to have the rods deliberately installed in synch, as if they’d never be out of it, while eliminating the sound effect that goes with them going out? Maybe it’s just a cosmetic thing or new factory practice but it still coincides with a major and unannounced sound effect change.

In any case, the articulated sound effect adds a depth to the sound of the first issue VL Challengers that is just not present with these new ones. Sure, they have multiple speakers and a booming whistle, but the overall effect is less impressive.

And no, I did not pre-order either.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

While trouble shooting the intermittent issue I'm having with my MTH challenger, I took the time to make sure both set of drivers are 180 degs out of sink from each other. Also made sure all worm gears are well greased. Much more visually interesting when running. Now the same thing can be done with the new Lionel challenger but that doesn't fix the sounds.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

How far back have the MTH Challenger and Big Boy had out of sync articulated chuffs? Any PS2 engines or not until PS3 came along?
As all my modern era UP engines are MTH I would only be considering MTH steam to run with them.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The Vision Line Big Boy has the proper articulated sounds. My N&W y6b also had the proper articulated sounds.

I'm wondering if the new sound engineer that took over from Rudy screwed up another audio release?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I contacted Lionel this morning about the sound, will report back when I receive a reply.

Although I returned mine yesterday, I’m still curious about the explanation.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

So I assume your testing confirmed no articulated sounds? I'm somewhat amazed they'd compromise the sound quality like that for no apparent reason!


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> .... I'm somewhat amazed they'd compromise the sound quality like that for no apparent reason!


The thought that "somebody" made a decision at some point -- either in the early design stage(s) or upon realizing this just recently and shipping the Challengers anyway -- is concerning. And it's yet another example of how disconnected Lionel's management is from train-buying enthusiasts.

Of course, all of this presumes that Lionel WANTS to do a quality job in the first place and that they're moved by all the bad press they get with each product release that comes with issues. If neither of those are accurate, then all bets are off. And it's possible that nobody at Lionel really cares -- hoping buyers either just display these products on shelves, or they'll accept less than they should get even when paying premium prices. As I mentioned earlier, Lionel's factories are pumping out WAY too much product these days with little to no supervision. And I honestly don't see that changing. When did it become "acceptable" to send crap into the market hoping buyers would settle?

Reminds me of the old cereal commercial featuring Mikey, the freckle-faced kid. Remember that? When not sure what to expect with a new cereal, the other kids would say, "Let's give it to Mikey... he'll eat anything."

Sadly... I think that's Lionel's mantra these days.  But I think increasing numbers of Lionel fans are tired of being Mikey. I know I am, and it shows in how little I pre-ordered from the latest catalog. No big ticket items whatsoever.

David


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I just tested my Legacy cab forward from about 2013 - not sure if that has the modular boards but I think it does. It definitely has articulated sounds that the new Challenger does not. I can only describe it as a kind of echo/double beat from start up to speed step 30 and then the sound "blends" to 4 chuffs per rotation without the extra effect at that and higher speeds. I can't believe that Lionel would miss out such a feature on a VL model by accident.

BTW, I never noticed before but the driving rods on this model are in perfect synch. 

I can't speak for the MTH BBs and Challengers because I don't have them. The only MTH steamer I have is a PS2 Erie Triplex and from memory that has articulated sounds at slow speed after startup. But then there is so much going on sound, smoke and motion-wise with that engine that I might easily be confused.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I know that the MTH steamers from the PS/1 models have articulated sound sets, and I've done a lot of PS/3 upgrades, including some articulated models, they all had the articulated sounds in the sound file. The MTH 2017 Premier Big Boy does have the articulated sounds, but it has a lousy sounding whistle. 

The 2013 Cab Forward has the new Legacy electronics and the single board RailSounds Lite board.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

So its beginning to sound like it was a failure in programming. This could be a fault at the factory rather than someone at Lionel making a decision to omit dual chuffing. Not unlike the ID problem with the RCMCs. Like the ID I suspect we will never know what happened or who is responsible.

Good to know even older MTH has non sync chuffing.

Pete


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

That may be the case but it’s Lionel’s responsibility to check/verify all is in order from the factory. 

Clearly that didn’t happen with the Challengers.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can't see this as a programming error, this is all Lionel. I REALLY doubt the factory is generating the sound files for these products. At the most, they're getting the binary image to program the boards, but they're certainly not determining the makeup of the sounds! The missing chuffing is all Lionel.

The ID problem with the RCMC? IMO, same issue. Lionel does NOT release their code, it's jealously guarded, just as the MTH code is. Whatever they gave the factory to program the RCMC is what the locomotives get.

I can see the factory getting the code loads mixed up, but since the new VL Challenger has road number specific tower com that is correct for the locomotives, that clearly didn't happen.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As far as the "drivers always being physically in sync", that's the luck of the draw. About 1/4 of the shipments will have the drivers physically in sync as there are four sides to the square axle linkage to the front engine truck. Lionel's very own promotional video shows their display locomotive with the drivers clearly not in sync. In truth, that may also be not true as it also depends on exactly where the wheels are when they assemble the worm gear, so I suspect only a small fraction of them will appear to be "in sync".


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

On the other hand, in the real world, they would probably rarely be in sync.......

Being two completely independent loco chassis, only connected by a common boiler, why would you expect them to be in sync?????


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, according to folks that have actually crewed these locomotives, after getting up to speed they will frequently stay mostly in sync, but obviously not always. This is only hearsay as I have never ridden in the cab of an articulated locomotive.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I recall when I was a kid my Dad and uncle talking about big articulated locos. I was four and had watched Victory at Sea (about the only thing on TV in the afternoon that my Mom would let me watch in 1952) over and over, and thought they were saying "in sink." I didn't understand, but I recall my uncle (who drove for Santa Fe) saying that he had only driven true Mallets, which could not get "out of sink" very easily (the compound engine routing os steam basically forces the power pulses to synchronize). 

At the time, I remember imagining that the locos were so heavy they would sink into the ground unless driven correctly, or something.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Lionel's articulated sound effect is only an approximation of what I have observed (mostly on video) is the sound of a real articulated steam loco in motion but it's one that people have come to expect as part of their higher end models' sound package. 

BTW, the illustration of a VL Challenger above with the rods out of synch is from the catalog that included the embedded video explaining that at that stage Lionel had no production samples of the new Challenger. What they were showing was based on the previous VL Challenger. Every image/video of that new model I have seen shows the rods fixed in synch. I appreciate that in assembly where their positions were not not intended to be so fixed the odds are they'd be out of synch but the question is, which (fixed or random) did Lionel opt for? 

I don't want to make too much of this and will shut up about it. What really bothers me is if Lionel can delete a basic sound feature from a VL engine, will it do so for other articulated engines in the future? If so I for one would want to be told.

Incidentally, those with long memories will recall (although it has not been mentioned here or elsewhere) that the 2010 VL Challenger shipped with a board defect; if a battery was installed to prevent sound dropping out, it would continue to discharge and power the rear tender lights even after the engine was shut down. This required the return of the sound boards to Lionel for re-programming. I am not sure how many people actually went to the trouble of doing this. I didn't as I did not think I needed the battery option; people with Atlas switches did, however.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

When you guys talk about "drivers in sync" is that the same as saying the drivers are not quartered, i.e., that both pairs of drivers on the Challengers are linear to each other? 

I didn't pre-order a VL Challenger, so I don't have a "dog in this fight", but am trying to understand the lingo. 

I did come very close to ordering a D&H version from Mr. Muffins, and I have to say that D&RG version looked awesome from the catalog drawing, but given I am over-my-head in pre-orders and expenses I drew the line on this.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Paul Kallus said:


> When you guys talk about "drivers in sync" is that the same as saying the drivers are not quartered, i.e., that both pairs of drivers on the Challengers are linear to each other?
> 
> I didn't pre-order a VL Challenger, so I don't have a "dog in this fight", but am trying to understand the lingo.
> 
> I did come very close to ordering a D&H version from Mr. Muffins, and I have to say that D&RG version looked awesome from the catalog drawing, but given I am over-my-head in pre-orders and expenses I drew the line on this.


NO. We really should be saying the front engine in sync with the rear engine. Look for 4014 videos of it starting up and running at speed. If both engines are in sync everything will look the same. drivers going up and down at the same time, exhaust steam going up the stack at the same time. That's how the new LIONEL challengers are set up sound wise.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

At four minutes in the video, you see both set of drivers/running gear are out of sync with each other? When it's like that you should get eight chuffs per revolution of the driving wheels, when there in perfect sync only four chuffs. 

Now advance near the end of Eric's video for the out of sync chuffing of the first Lionel vision Line challenger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's pretty hard for me to believe that the Chinese assembly folks will take the trouble to not only rotate the driveshaft to the correct orientation, but also mesh the worm with the axle gear correctly for all of these. That's the only way that all of them can be shipped with the drivers in perfect sync.

Let's say they actually do that. That really doesn't solve the problem, at least my problem. The real locomotive doesn't run in sync 100% of the time, and removing the distinctive sound of the engines going in and out of sync is part of the superior sound that Lionel is known for.

I believe it's the Legacy Y6b that Lionel went a step further. Although it's a Mallet, it runs in simplex mode at low speed so you hear the articulated sounds, then at around 25 scale MPH, it switches and you hear in in sync, very cool. Losing all this sound detail seems stupid, it's like they're selling less for more!


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

I called my dealer today to inquire about the Challenger. And the only thing he could say was that Lionel held these in NC for almost a month to check each locomotive and "fix something", and they're now releasing them to dealers. He's expecting his shipment later this week, but couldn't provide any further details on what -- if anything -- was fixed.

Now here's where things could get interesting. It turns out Ryan from Lionel is visiting their store in Long Island this Friday -- something that was put on the calendar months ago. So it's nothing "specific" to the Challenger. But I'm sure folks are gonna be asking Ryan what's up with these Challengers. And he's gonna have to say something substantial. So we may not need to wait until York to hear Lionel's "party line" on all of this.

Unfortunately, it's a bit of a hike for me to get up to Nassau Hobbies, so at this point I don't plan on driving 2 hours to the store -- although I'm VERY interested to see/hear Ryan's response to what we're currently seeing on the early videos being posted online.

I already told the dealer I'm very disappointed to hear these early reports as they relate to a Railsounds issue and would NOT be taking delivery of a premium-priced product where a major feature is missing. There was a bit of silence on the phone when I said that, so we'll see where this goes within the week.

As I see it, Lionel is putting their dealers in a sticky situation. They're encouraging them to offer special-run "exclusives" only available through a specific dealer. Some of those dealers -- as is the case here -- request a deposit. This is something I DON'T do as a matter of normal pre-ordering, but I made the exception THIS time because I've purchased from them in the past and I always heard lots of good things about the earlier VL Challenger. 

However, I can see some of these scenarios aren't gonna always play out smoothly, because so much of this stuff is done in a gentleman's agreement sort of way. For example, what happens in a case like the Challenger? What happens to one's deposit, if the buyer doesn't take delivery of the Challenger? Can the deposit be refunded? Can it be transferred to another store purchase of a known item that's already in stock? If the buyer takes delivery of the product and then wants to return it, is there a re-stocking fee?

Sadly, it's getting to the point where the "fun" is gone from the transaction. And both parties (dealer and consumer) are more focused on protecting themselves rather than generating a heightened customer experience. 

Of course, it goes without saying that Lionel would be ecstatic if the consumer would just accept the product no matter how it's delivered. I'm just tired of playing that role. Earlier this year, I returned $800 worth of junk passenger cars for a full refund. Fortunately, it was an easy return -- no deposit involved, no restocking fee, no hard feelings. This time, I'm not quite sure how this will pan out, since there's a deposit involved and the dealer often charges restocking fees. But this was the ONLY dealer who offered the Western Maryland Challenger, and that's what caught my eye this time. Otherwise I would have passed on the usual west-coast roadnames for the Challengers.

I will say this: my recent experience with special-order exclusives has NOT been without incident. So I'm 0 for 2, and there won't be a 3rd. The other scenario was a pair of METCA special-run Milk Cars from Lionel. METCA wanted payment in full up-front -- as do most clubs -- when members order club-cars. Unfortunately, THESE Milk Cars cars are now in perpetual limbo, since tooling has been lost in Romania after the factory deal to produce them went down the drain. I think we're now past 3 years since the cars were first catalog'd or announced.

At least with METCA, the admin folks were a joy to deal with and were willing to transfer my $160 over to another purchase. So all was not lost. Hopefully, things will work out equally well with this potential Challenger fiasco. But we shall see.

Bottom line: with all the uncertainties of overseas manufacturing rearing their ugly heads these, I'm SO DONE pre-ordering big-ticket BTO items. Lionel has done NOTHING to instill consumer confidence in what they deliver vs. what is catalog'd. And NOBODY needs this aggravation.  

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

There's a Ryan/Dave show coming up on Facebook this week. I wonder if they'll get any questions about the Challenger. Hmmmm

Nevermind, their FB page is full of "what's up with the Challengers?"


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> There's a Ryan/Dave show coming up on Facebook this week. I wonder if they'll get any questions about the Challenger. Hmmmm
> 
> ...


The Facebook Live event is TODAY, Monday 7/29 at 4PM EDT.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I already told the dealer....and would NOT be taking delivery of a premium-priced product where a major feature is missing. There was a bit of silence on the phone when I said that....
> 
> ...And NOBODY needs this aggravation.
> 
> David


It has a whole new meaning when it happens to you (you=dealers). During the silence the 'gravity' of the situation hit him. 

Customers refusing delivery will get attention. It's simple.

As you saw above, I didn't waste time, returned mine the next morning. It's the dealer/Lionel's problem, not mine. 

It's ridiculous adults accept sub-par expensive products and 'just deal' with it. This mentality has made it worse.

Lionel dealers have to engage this issue, and IMO, have done nothing/a poor job of that. Evidence? Each round of deliveries has something wrong. Why aren't dealers screaming about all the problems? Yet, they charge your credit card, ship product and let Lionel's overwhelmed service department deal with the mess. Even that has come 'unhinged' recently, often no parts for new stuff. 

WOOH, rant over!


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

all those unhappy I am not trying to irritate this but if you read the features in online lionel 2018 catalog for challenger no where does it say or imply that each set of drivers will have 4 chuffs per revolution nor does it imply an in or out of sync sound set per drive wheel revolution.

I hope it turns out as you want to with the lionel facebook event about to start soon


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

While they don't call it out specifically, leaving such a major sound feature out of their flagship Vision Line product is absurd, what could they possibly have been thinking? They thought we wouldn't notice? Not likely!!!


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

just speculating I wonder if vision line heading and they used legacy features by accident? or was it supposed to say it was legacy version locomotive. food for thought is all im saying


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

well no word in this live event on issues with latest challenger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

empire builder said:


> just speculating I wonder if vision line heading and they used legacy features by accident? or was it supposed to say it was legacy version locomotive. food for thought is all im saying


All the previous Legacy simple articulated steam has the proper sound set, so that's not it.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

empire builder said:


> well no word in this live event on issues with latest challenger


And this surprised anybody?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Not really, I suspect they're in the back room wringing their hands and wondering how they're going to explain that omission away.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Probably so, John.

A simple statement like, “we’re aware of some Vision Challenger rail sound concerns and will address them later,” would’ve done wonders for their PR. Just saying...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They could also be in the backroom saying *%#%^&*#@!%^&, they sure noticed that fast, how are we going to explain it away!*


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

That’s hilarious!


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Remember guys and gals, in every catalog there is a disclaimer that items depicted in the catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability. Verify features on product box. 

In essence nothing is a givin of what features in the catalog are going to make it in the finished product. 

Still want to use BTO? So the only way to find out what the product has is to read the product package, pretty slick if you ask me. 

Dave


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Someone posted on OGR the catalog descriptions of the 2010 and current Challengers. The 2010 describes articulated chuffs while there is no mention of articulated chuffs in the desciption of the current one. 
It appears the lesson here is you can't assume anything about a new release based on a previous release unless its clearly stated in the catalog. Of course thats no guideline either as there is always the cop out David quoted that items can change from the catalog description.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It still boggles the mind that a feature that has appeared on the standard Legacy articulated locomotives for years just gets dropped from the flagship product line.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It still boggles the mind that a feature that has appeared on the standard Legacy articulated locomotives for years just gets dropped from the flagship product line.


You me both. I didn't order this engine, I wouldn't mind picking up one down the road a few years out if it had the sound feature but not now. Really wish someone at Lionel would come out with a statement on this. Would end all the speculation about this engine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was planning on picking one up when they actually came out as I'm done with pre-orders until their track record gets a ton better. I'm glad I waited, stuff like that just shouldn't happen.

I have to wonder if this came about because they have a new sound engineer and he was having issues getting the stuff to work properly, so they took the coward's way out and just dropped the feature from the release.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> You me both. I didn't order this engine, I wouldn't mind picking up one down the road a few years out if it had the sound feature but not now. Really wish someone at Lionel would come out with a statement on this. Would end all the speculation about this engine.


I have a nasty feeling that Lionel don't have a good explanation for this  and are holding off while they see what consumer/dealer reaction is, which is not necessarily fully reflected on any O gauge enthusiasts' forum. (No offense intended but it's true.)

Incidentally, as regards the newest edition of their Big Boy, I do not see any catalog reference (including in the standard Legacy steam loco features on pp. 6 and 7 of the 2019 vol. 2 catalog) to articulated steam sounds. Are we to take it from this that this feature is gone in these models too? If so, they better explain that and why.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

This was just posted:

Hello all.

Thank you all for your concerns over the Vision Challenger. We can tell this is a highly anticipated release – usually the complaints don’t start coming in until you’ve actually received the product! In all seriousness, as with all of our VISION LINE and indeed any Lionel product, we want you to be completely satisfied. If upon receipt of your locomotive you find it does not function as expected from the sales descriptions, please contact us directly through our Customer Service line at 1-800-4-Lionel or [email protected]. We will do our best to get your issues addressed and your product returned to you as quickly as possible.

Speaking of Customer Service, this is a good opportunity to announce that our move into our new location is nearly complete and we will begin accepting warranty repairs starting August 1st. Thank you for all of your patience as we’ve moved into our new home. Ultimately, this will enable us to provide even better service to you all.

Thank you.

Dean J. Brasseur
Director of Customer Service
Lionel


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Weird email, carefully parsed. 

He leaves out what the problem was, or is, and leaves it up to us to compare the features received to what was in the catalog.

Looks like it was composed by a lawyer.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Very diplomatic, as in never apologize, never explain. 

What I get from this is that the articulated steam sounds were omitted, whether or by accident or design. If you want them they can be installed but it requires return to Lionel for that purpose. They figure that the take up will be small and who knows at whose expense the shipping will be.

What I've learned is that if an established feature is not specifically cataloged by Lionel I have to ask whether it will be included.

MTH cab forwards here I come.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

The overwhelmed service department is about to get really busy!

As for the catalog description, I hold no faith in it, either stated or the disclaimer. They’ve delivered both sides of that extreme, so I returned the stuff not matching descriptions or varying vastly by their disclaimer.

At this point, I’m not sure what to tell anyone. 

Features we’ve saw from years are gone and no explanation. Stated features not delivered but advertised.

Best to leave credit card in wallet! Besides, die-cast Lionel steam cost is well into brass at this point, I’ll continue to buy brass.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Craignor said:


> .....
> 
> Looks like it was composed by a lawyer.


No surprise there!

*I’m glad I just returned mine.* 

Too much drama already and after the horror stories of Lionel service recently, I don’t need the headache.

Good riddance!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well that letter satisfied no one. I feel for Dean, having to clean up all these messes. One thing sure, Dean and his department have job security.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Postscript: The thread on the OGR Forum about the new VL Challengers has been closed immediately after Dean’s posting copied above. Certainly enough has been said to explain the problem but the inadequate response from Lionel leaves me cold. So does over-moderation but in that respect I think I’m preaching to the converted.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> No surprise there!
> 
> *I’m glad I just returned mine.*
> 
> ...


The last time I returned two locomotives unopened was.... drum roll please..... THE LEGACY MOGUL!!! I never looked back, and we ALL know what happened with THAT fiasco. This same scenario was playing out back then. I read about all kinds of performance issues folks were having, so I didn't even go there. But Lionel stayed mum for MONTHS before admitting there was an ounce of a problem, and even then they never really EXPLAINED the real problem or its solution.

So here we are a few years later -- this time with a VisionLine Challenger, which I won't be taking delivery of since it appears to be less than it "should" be for an established product in the marketplace. And that letter a few posts back was the epitome of shady customer service. Admit nothing, but offer to fix it if WE the consumers "think" something is wrong. Wonderful. 

What that tells me is this: Lionel's executives are not only inept empty suits, they're dishonest and unethical to boot. The letter is a sham to which no serious professional would ever sign their name. Essentially, Lionel is HOPING folks will still shell out premium dollars w/o knowing something is amiss if they don't notice it themselves. So for the poor schmuck who plans to just display his Challenger for a year or two until his dream layout gets underway, he's screwed... and Lionel doesn't give a hoot about those folks. That just speaks VOLUMES about what Lionel executive management thinks of you and me as long-time buyers.

All of this nonsense happening on the heals of Lionel just releasing their 2019 Volume 2 catalog should tell anybody with half a brain to NOT pre-order one iota of BTO product. I was gonna order a couple of small goodies -- no big ticket items. But now I'm not gonna even pre-order ANY of the little stuff either. I'll just wait to see what's delivered and go from there. That's the current state of overseas train manufacturing these days... plain and simple.

What an absolute mess. But I don't feel sorry for Lionel management, because their incompetence and failure to be straight up with consumers have brought all this on themselves. At this point, I'm SO glad I didn't pre-order the N&W J's or any of the 2-10-4 offerings from the 2019 Big Book (i.e., 2019 Volume 1). Who knows WHAT's gonna go awry with those jewels. But I did pre-order a Hudson J3a along with a Christmas Shay from my long-time dealer who doesn't charge pre-order deposits. So we'll see what happens with THOSE gems.

If this kind of no-response "response" from Lionel doesn't dissuade enthusiasts from pre-ordering future big-ticket BTO items, then I don't know what will.  

Sad... very sad.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Postscript: The thread on the OGR Forum about the new VL Challengers has been closed immediately after Dean’s posting copied above. Certainly enough has been said to explain the problem but the inadequate response from Lionel leaves me cold. So does over-moderation but in that respect I think I’m preaching to the converted.


The fact that the OGR thread is now closed should surprise nobody here. And Lionel's no-response "response" is gonna leave LOTS of enthusiasts feeling cold. Nobody wants to be made a fool of or played as gullible. And that's precisely why I'm canceling my Challenger pre-order BEFORE the dealer ships it. 

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Craignor said:


> <EXCERPT FROM LIONEL'S LETTER> .... If upon receipt of your locomotive you find it does not function *as expected from the sales descriptions*, .... [my underlined emphasis]


So there you have it folks... without really coming right out and admitting it, Lionel is subtly telling buyers that the Railsounds articulated chuff was never listed as an included feature in this version of the company's top-of-the-line VisionLine Challenger. So this is all a hill of beans about nothing.

Of course, even if the catalog DID list the articulated chuff was a feature, a slightly different legal-inspired letter would have pointed us to the catalog page which gently "reminds" us all that colors, features, and catalog descriptions are subject to change in the final production product -- which is all perfectly understandable... but we DO expect that the importer is up front with us and tells us when those changes are gonna happen. 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dave,

How did Nassau handle your cancellation request? Get your deposit back?


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Dean’s observation regarding complaints usually coming after the product is received is probably true. Sometimes truth is better left unsaid.

How about simply addressing the problem/question. Surely there is an answer.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Dave,
> 
> How did Nassau handle your cancellation request? Get your deposit back?


Gary, I was in the market for 3 Wings of Angels military boxcars, so Nassau transferred my deposit to that purchase which was essentially a wash. I was willing to purchase a Western Maryland 2-6-6-2 Mallet, which I know has the proper articulated Railsounds (confirmed via online videos of that batch of locomotives). But Nassau only had NYC and C&O roadnames.

So all in all, everything worked out OK... and I won't be feeling like I needed to "settle" for something less than it should have been. My gut feel said "pass", and sometimes it's good to listen to that little voice inside our heads.

For other folks who ordered this VisionLine Challenger, I wish them well... because Lionel IS moving ahead shipping them to dealers, and the dealers will be selling them. If, in fact, the only "issue" is the missing articulated chuff, then some folks may be OK without that. But for $1,800 I wanted nothing less than a full VisionLine feature-set. Dean's letter also didn't help much, as I don't appreciate when suppliers are being coy with buyers. Instead of trying to be humorous in light of a very serious feature omission, Lionel should have confirmed that this IS the one and only issue, and folks would have appreciated the up-front candor. Instead, buyers are left knowing "something" is obviously amiss, but it's up to them to discover what that is... and if it's enough of an issue to warrant shipping it back to Lionel and have them look at whatever that "something" is.


David


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Quick thoughts on this whole deal:

1. The way of the Mogul, perhaps: Lionel is already on path for a repeat with the BS statement posted above. I'm not as forgiving as others and expect customer service when spending over a $1,000 on anything, not just trains. 

2. Catalog descriptions: I expect items as described in catalogs (implied or not). That's why folks want stuff. When it's delivered/not as described, return for refund. You did your part, honored money for what was planned to be delivered. And, for this 'catalog disclaimer', I call BS again. They got a commitment to uphold too, the lawyers don't effect your decision to keep something. And, if it gets nasty with a dealer, a credit card dispute is very easy to process as a last resort. BTW, that's never needed with my great dealer. 

3. Customer Service: Lionel doesn't care about your customer experience. How many deliveries will this take before folks have that reality check? How many statements like above will it take?

4. BTO is low risk to Lionel and requires "no skin in the game": Despite the mess they repeatedly deliver, folks keep ordering. Want proof? The same folks complaining are the first posting the "what are you buying from the new catalog threads?". Don't be an addict...

5. Deliver product at all costs, don't worry about known issues, consumers will likely accept it and if not, issue an RA and let customer service fix it.

6. No surprise the other forum closed the thread. It likely put into question one of the sponsors and that's not happening there. Just like Capitol Hill in a way, "Hey, look over here, there's nothing to see over there" mentality.

7. Perfect timing. New catalog was just released with lots of articulated steam. Doubt arises of what will happen to future releases of Rail Sounds. Nicely done, sarcasm... 

*There's an answer to all this. It's really simple. Stop buying the junk arriving at your door step. Don't be an addict, once again.*


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Gary, I was in the market for 3 Wings of Angels military boxcars, so Nassau transferred my deposit to that purchase which was essentially a wash. I was willing to purchase a Western Maryland 2-6-6-2 Mallet, which I know has the proper articulated Railsounds (confirmed via online videos of that batch of locomotives). But Nassau only had NYC and C&O roadnames.
> 
> So all in all, everything worked out OK... and I won't be feeling like I needed to "settle" for something less than it should have been.
> 
> David


Funny you mention the Mallet. I was thinking of picking one up at York (if I can find a good price) and having it relettered for B&A. Good to know it has the correct sounds. Glad they were willing to work with you.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

So Dean didn’t address any specific deficiency in the Challenger, not the lack of the “articulated sounds” or “the forgetting the address” problem. 

We think the “address forgetting” was a problem and was fixed, but we won’t know that until the customers get the loco.

Buyer beware.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was pretty surprised at the end of that thread, that was a non-response to the actual question if I ever saw one! At least I'm 99% sure that it really doesn't have the articulated chuff now, but I haven't actually seen video or in person a VL Challenger to confirm that belief. Does ANYONE have one yet?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Only video of found of it actually running. You have to forward to the end but no articulation in the chuffing at ALL


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If we'd find one without all the honking and bell ringing, you could actually hear what was going on!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Sounds and steam effects are pretty impressive. If Lionel fixes the chuffs this might be a keeper. 

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

From the response, I don't see that they're currently planning on changing anything. I could be wrong, but the whole tone of the only Lionel response doesn't leave me with a warm & fuzzy feeling. I thought they might be looking into why that feature was omitted, not simply disavowing any responsibility for it being gone!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If we'd find one without all the honking and bell ringing, you could actually hear what was going on!


I thought the same, look for the Legacy Station clip on YT. You can hear it.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98f2NxRTzOQ
> 
> Only video of found of it actually running. You have to forward to the end but no articulation in the chuffing at ALL


I tracked that video down too and recognized the quality control stickers he shows on the shipping carton! (As well as his name and train club affiliation.) He posted on the other place saying that he noticed the lack of articulated sounds. 

But apart from that, there are those "Nsync'd" drivers again! Every Challenger video I've seen so far shows them.

I will say that the smoke output in the video is a lot better than the previous VL Challenger, especially from the dynamo. Lionel probably thinks we're a PITA for not crediting such improvements. Trouble is, last time I got a very improved Lionel Legacy smoker (AC-9), it would not take an engine ID change at all. :smilie_auslachen:


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Sounds and steam effects are pretty impressive. If Lionel fixes the chuffs this might be a keeper.
> 
> ...





gunrunnerjohn said:


> From the response, I don't see that they're currently planning on changing anything. I could be wrong, but the whole tone of the only Lionel response doesn't leave me with a warm & fuzzy feeling. ....



As I said earlier, I think some folks will be fine with what's being delivered *IF* "the only issue" happens to be the lack of articulated chuffs. I'm the last person you'll find here being a rivet counter, but I just didn't feel comfy with this whole poker game. It's as if Lionel is hoping nobody notices, and they're praying nobody is reading the online discussions.

Now I do know that Nassau Hobbies has Ryan Kunkle coming in on Friday, and they're giving their Challenger buyers the option of picking up the Challenger at the store and stopping in to meet Ryan before Nassau ships them out. Folks are being encouraged to check out their purchase at the store, so SOMEBODY is bound to ask Ryan on Friday. We shall see what if anything is said then.

Other than that, Nassau mentioned to me that all 25 of their Western Maryland Challengers were checked out in NC, and "no problems were encountered". So perhaps that's what the "quality" label on the shipping carton is all about. Of course, that implies nothing with respect to the missing articulated chuff sounds -- because if they were dropped from this release, Lionel isn't viewing that as an issue/problem during any in-house quality checks. Problem? What problem? Yes... we have no articulated chuff sounds. Next? 

It's all a matter of semantics and perspective, but it's not leaving anyone who's participated in these online discussions feeling good about the whole thing. For those who don't care (and Lionel is hoping there are lots of those folks), everything will be just fine.

Having said all this, the steam and whistle effects appear first-class, and I am disappointed that somebody dropped the ball with respect to the implementation of articulated chuffs -- because this would have been a nice addition to my locomotive roster in a special roadname. But not $1,800-worth w/o a full set of VL-class features.

David


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## FVTrains (Jun 19, 2015)

I will admit I’m way outclassed by everyone else in terms of railroad/engine knowledge, electronics, etc. A few comments...

Disclaimer: I’m waiting for a 49er paint scheme VL Challenger. I liked that version

Comments:

Did I read somewhere that this engine has only one motor? Can anyone confirm that? Because that would explain why the drive rods appear to be synchronized, and maybe why the chuffing cannot be asynchronous (?) because there is only one motor to act as a mechanical trigger for the chuffs(?).

And wouldn’t we be complaining that the drivers didn’t match the chuffs if the sounds were correct?

And is Lionel avoiding problems by only putting one motor inside?

Of course, if it has more than one motor (i.e. two), then give me the cone hat and I’ll sit on the stool in the corner...

Trying to stay hopeful....

Bruce


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## FVTrains (Jun 19, 2015)

Because when I looked at the catalog, there is only one motor in the Legacy steam section. Did the articulated engines before (e.g. the Big Boys) have two motors?

Or am I still in the corner, on the stool....

Bruce


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

No one is going to be so rude as to put you in the naughty corner.

One motor only. I saw a thread somewhere in which it was said that some Lionel steamers have had two but they were not any of the recent scale models, as far as I remember.

Of course with one motor all the wheels are going to turn at the same rate. It's where they and in consequence the driving rods are placed in the rotation cycle that determines whether they look in or out of synch. At higher speeds you can't really tell; at low speed with articulated sounds drivers out of synch look more authentic - or at least I prefer the sounds at low speed even if the drivers are synched.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Oh gosh, let's put him in the naughty corner! 

All of the previous Lionel articulated steam had the articulated sound set. Some of the later stuff, like the Y6b, even emulates the startup in simple mode and then shifts to compound mode as the speed comes up. This is just like the real prototype. All of a sudden leaving out this sound feature on the flagship product is puzzling, to say the least!

Yes, all the Lionel and MTH scale steam has one drive motor and all the wheels are geared the same.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

All of GRJ's points make it so difficult to understand why Lionel did what they did with this engine, whether it was deliberate or not. I think (FWIW) that it must have been deliberate but for the life of me I don't understand why. Some code written into a sound system capable of supporting it can't make any real difference to cost. WTF is going on???  hwell:


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> All of GRJ's points make it so difficult to understand why Lionel did what they did with this engine, whether it was deliberate or not. I think (FWIW) that it must have been deliberate but for the life of me I don't understand why. Some code written into a sound system capable of supporting it can't make any real difference to cost. WTF is going on???  hwell:


Ditto, there’s no cost saving to remove this feature, so why?


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## FVTrains (Jun 19, 2015)

Just let me know when my penance is done. hwell:

Thanks for setting me straight. I must admit, while the asynchronous effect is cool, it isn’t a deal-breaker for me. But I can understand the views of others who are justifiably upset by the sound omission.

Bruce


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## RickO (Oct 9, 2015)

*The bottom line is, Mike Jon and Rudy are gone. This is NOT the same Lionel as when they were there.* 


Defective gearboxes,bright silver smokeboxes, bad or incorrectly designed boards, now you can't even get the correct sounds. What will be wrong next?


I was excited about the new Hudson. I will be cancelling that as well as my set of Alco FA's. Lionel seems to be going in a different direction.


I feel sorry for the folks that preordered these VL challengers. On the other hand. I suppose this will really boost the value of the original ones.

( Now to go grab one of those leftover MTH J1es no one ever talks about........because they work right out of the box and have the same features as before)


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I am new here. However I have heard about this complaint. I did some research and investigated. As it turns out, on the real Challengers (and any articulated engine for that matter) when the driving wheels are in sync, so is the chuffing. The driving wheels on this model are in sync, thus the chuffing is in sync. Thus, making the non-articulated chuff prototypical. A lot of people are getting WAY to angry over this. Sometimes people forget this hobby is about fun. As for those trashing Lionel, you are all pretty much jumping on them for absolutely nothing. If this was MTH or Atlas, the freak out would be nothing compared to this. My message to those expecting absolute perfection from Lionel is this: Why are you into this hobby? Nothing is perfect, and if you expect absolute perfection then you should probably find something else to do. These are built by humans, not robots.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

The model-The chuffing has nothing to do with rod location, it’s in the rail sounds program. I’m not sure why this keeps being brought up. 

People are upset because Lionel changes stuff without notice to the buyers, won’t give a simple explanation after spending thousands of dollars and waiting months or longer. This isn’t the first time something like this has happened.

As for the comment about Lionel trash talking, until they improve their own image by helping themselves there will be no “love” .

Welcome aboard!


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I understand.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

One more thing I wanna note is that I know articulated locomotives well. When the wheels are in sync, the old steam from both sets of cylinders is shot out of the blast pipe at the same time. Thus, the chuff is in sync. Lionel most likely programmed the sounds like this because the wheels were in sync. I will agree though that they could do a better job at alerting buyers when these changes are being made.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> .... It could have been a lot worse. ....


That's a pretty low bar for comparison's sake. Many of us are comparing the new VisionLine Challengers to the earlier VisionLine models from Lionel about 8-10 years ago. Here's what many of us expected:

http://www.lionel.com/products/clinchfield-legacy-4-6-6-4-challenger-with-coal-tender-672-6-11219/



Of course, in the spirit of getting everyone excited with respect to how terrific the new VisionLine Challengers will be, here's the print-ad for the model offered through the LCCA. Note the wording: 

_".... It will have stack, whistle, dynamo and injector smoke effects from the previous VisionLine Challenger, additional sound and lighting enhancements and will run on a minimum of 0-72 track...just to name a few of the features loaded into this model. ...." _​


Here's the full ad:

https://www.lionelcollectors.org/!userfiles/news/2018 Product/OGR-VisionLineAd.pdf


So you can see the overall tone of the ad implies, "Hey... remember the earlier VisionLine Challengers? The new models with be all that PLUS some additional sound and lighting enhancements. No implication whatsoever that anything would get yanked. In fact, the ad implies just the opposite with the statement, _"... just to name a few of the features loaded into this model."_

THAT's why you're reading a lot of comments with smoke on them here. THAT plus the fact that Lionel's non-response "response" today was pitiful even by loyal fan standards. Sorry... but Lionel gets no pass on this model. Instead, I suspect many of us will be passing on purchasing this model. 

Welcome aboard!

David


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I have proof to back my claim about the chuffing. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YUwExIn4nY

3985’s driving wheels are in sync in this video. The chuffing is also in sync.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> I have proof to back my claim about the chuffing.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2YUwExIn4nY
> 
> ...


Well, I think al this is not that important to me because I have the previous Vision Challenger and will not be buying. 

I think what concerns most people who are wary of Lionel is if and how they fix or even acknowledge quality problems and the recent "serial" quality issues Lionel seems to be having. You are correct that everyone - Lionel, Atlas, MTH, and WBB, have had products that had issues. But most communicated and acting as buyers expected. With Lionel, both quality and communications and actions were at fault on at least three recent products:
- The Mogul. I got bitten by this, and having a low tolerance for hassles and frustration, ultimately just three the damn thing in my spare parts bin.
- The 21 inch passenger cars
- the black bonnet grill paint on the PA ABA sets. Clearly a mistake, but not something Lionel would correct. 
I all cases, how and what they said and didn't say, and when, is not as many, including me, think our ideal supplier would act. 

But again, I don't have a lot of skin in this particular game because I will not be buying the new Challenger. 

Now that LC+2.0 Big Boy - that's another matter, but I hope it will be okay when (supposedly Nov.) it is released.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“They did it with the Big Boy by adding the wheelslip feature while they were in production”

You argue against your own point. The wheelslip feature was the sound of wheelslip. The wheels on the model did not actually slip. Ergo, not prototypical. 

The most likely time to distinguish out of sync chuffing would be at slow speeds, which is when RailSounds gives us that sound. We get some articulated sound which is what we want to hear from an articulated engine.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

It’ll be a cold day in h#ll when I owe Lionel an apology.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> Well I understand that. But my argument is that they did this because it’s prototypical.


The problem is, for the real prototype, it's not prototypical. Yes, for the model, due to the fact that the two engines are driven by one motor and a solid gear-train, they will remain in whatever relationship they have until you take it apart to work on it. However, in the real prototype, verified by a number of people that have actually crewed on articulated locomotives, including the Challenger, the engines do NOT always remain in sync.

The point is, Lionel has done a ton of articulated locomotives in the past, and all the past versions have had articulated sounds when appropriate. All the past Vision Line articulated locomotives have the correct sounds, and I have three of them. MTH manages to have the articulated sound set for their articulated locomotives as well.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Alright. I’ll admit it is kinda odd to have the non-articulated chuffs on this engine. I’ll edit my earlier comments. Hopefully they’ll issue new sound boards to fix this. If not, they need to fire some people.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> Alright. I’ll admit it is kinda odd to have the non-articulated chuffs on this engine. I’ll edit my earlier comments. Hopefully they’ll issue new sound boards to fix this. If not, they need to fire some people.


I'm drawing a line under my own comments on this as it's all been said (self-moderation?). Possibly if anyone deserves to be fired they are in China and so immune from and no doubt blissfully unaware of this controversy. More likely, changing the sounds was a decision taken in Lionel Stateside and that really makes me unhappy. Enough to wish them fired? Only if that would change their approach.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I’m actually about to take a break from Lionel to get some more variety in my fleet. Mostly MTH and Atlas.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Wow that was a 180.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I’ll still buy some Lionel, but I’m gonna be getting a lot more MTH.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

My apologies for any confusion I may have caused over this whole ordeal.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

For me personally, it's not so much the missing articulated sound set as it is the fact they removed it and _still_ charge $1800. If it was something that never was and priced accordingly I'd probably order one. It's a magnificent looking locomotive and I'm not one who complains about prices. But Lionel's seemingly indifference in association with a few past Lionel train issues I've had has kept me away.

I wish this wasn't happening with Lionel. It's like a favorite uncle slowly being disinterested with you.


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## vash44 (Jan 14, 2018)

Personally, I am looking forward to receiving my #3985. I am not soured in the slightest by it not having the articulated sounds. I saw this locomotive in my hometown in the early 90s as a youngster. I have always wanted to purchase one of these (one day) to add to my collection. The excitement outweighs a missing feature as it will complete my consist for the UP passenger cars. Just simply adding for all of the negatives about the loco, many are still stoked seeing the offering release. 

http://www.stlouisnrhs.org/pastevents/RouteGuides/Central States Challenger STL-CHI 7-19-93.pdf


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

It's been reported that Lionel is looking into it, on why the sound feature was dropped. Maybe if someone talks to Ryan and ask directly when he's at Nassau, we might get answer? Wouldn't think it would be a hard fix. Just correct the sounds file and reprogram the railsounds board like the ID forgetting issue with the PA. Sadly that would mean sending the engine back. If Lionel is going to fix this and not wash their hands, they should stop shipping the engines and fix them right there but as we all know that requires forward thinking by management.

Sad that my most successful thread to date on MTF is about another Lionel flub. Really hope we can get pass all these messes in the near future.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Sad that my most successful thread to date on MTF is about another Lionel flub. Really hope we can get pass all these messes in the near future.


I agree and suggest that we exercise some restraint on this subject. I would like to see photos/videos of this model in operation, whether or not anyone agrees with the decisions made in production or indeed accepting delivery of them.


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## DJones (Oct 19, 2015)

I just viewed a video of the 3985 running and to me it looks and sounds great! Personally, one of the things I like most about Lionel steam engines is that they do not all sound the same.

Good job Lionel!

Happy railroading,
Don


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> It's been reported that Lionel is looking into it, on why the sound feature was dropped. ....


Gary, this is PRECISELY why I have zero toleration of Lionel management's ineptness with respect to communication to both its dealer network and general consumers. If Lionel inspected these Challengers in-house during the month of July, then *what exactly did they inspect?* I'm tired of all the speculation surrounding this offering due to Lionel's silence. And Lionel's dealers and buyers deserve MUCH better.

Earlier this month everybody thought the inspections were done to check a potential problem with these locomotives remembering new engine ID's. That was purely the rumor mill though. As far as the lack of articulated chuffs, that would be an issue with the sound file, which -- although is unique to each roadname/roadnumber for Vision Line offerings -- should otherwise be identical with respect to chuffing sounds across all Challengers. And Nassau was told all 25 of their Western Maryland special-runs "checked out OK" -- whatever that means since nobody has yet to explained WHAT exactly was checked. 

Regardless... it should be interesting to see if any further information comes out of Ryan's visit to Nassau Hobbies on Friday. We shall see.

In any event, as I predicted... many folks will be quite happy with these Challengers even if they're not up to same feature-set level of the models from 8-10 years ago. People convince themselves of anything when they're spending premium dollars -- even if it means "settling"... which is why Lionel continues to cut corners like this. It's the old "Let's give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything" syndrome.  And it's alive and thriving in Lionel's boardroom. 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I hear you Dave. When Mike left a few years back we all wondered why and I now think we all can put two and two together as the reason why. 

I should state the reporting I'm hearing is third party that Lionel is looking into this. Far as I know Lionel may not be looking at this at all or maybe they are. Hope they are.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2019)

I was speaking to a dealer this morning and some of his customers' pre ordered Challengers have arrived and some have not. Mine has not. Apparently different things on different road names. Possibly something to do with the sound boards as each unit has road name and number specific crew talk. Lionel is really keeping mum on these locos. I am not too worried though as mine will be fully tested on his layout. We were talking about the new Lionel catalog and according to him Lionel has instructed him to get his pre orders in to them by the end of the week! More intrigue.

Gary.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

waitin' 4 the train said:


> We were talking about the new Lionel catalog and according to him Lionel has instructed him to get his pre orders in to them by the end of the week! More intrigue.
> 
> Gary.


I think the Golden Spike stuff has to be ordered by August 5th but the rest of the catalog is more like the end of August.

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

$1800 VL articulated locomotive with NO articulated sound... I cancelled mine!

everything I have pre-order the past couple years I cancelled before it was shipped. problem after problem after problem

mistakes are mistakes but now Lionel is being deceptive about their screw ups "banking" on the fact that many of you will just accept them ANYWAY. Thats why it WILL never improve!


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2019)

Laidoffsick said:


> $1800 VL articulated locomotive with NO articulated sound... I cancelled mine!
> 
> everything I have pre-order the past couple years I cancelled before it was shipped. problem after problem after problem
> 
> mistakes are mistakes but now Lionel is being deceptive about their screw ups "banking" on the fact that many of you will just accept them ANYWAY. Thats why it WILL never improve!


 Hey LOS, A real shame you are not building another layout. We followed your California build videos, beautiful layout. I pre ordered a new UP Challenger, coal burner, and we are going to keep it. I consider this loco to be Legacy not VL so I am ok with it. Got it for a great price so I am not really paying for the loss of VL features.

Regards,

Gary.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Laidoffsick said:


> .....that many of you will just accept them ANYWAY. Thats why it WILL never improve!


I’ll never understand why 3 railers are like this. The first complainers are the guys posting the extensive list of what they pre-ordered out of the next catalog. Repeat cycle each catalog. Then they’re “surprised “ more junk arrived at their door step. Some folks just love punishment!



waitin' 4 the train said:


> .... I consider this loco to be Legacy not VL so I am ok with it. Got it for a great price so I am not really paying for the loss of VL features.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gary.


Gary,

All of us are entitled to our opinions. With all due respect, I’m not sure how you accept a VL product just as Legacy. 

We paid a lot of money for the VL Challengers. I’m glad you got a great price. My dealer shared his price when I discussed multiple 
VL Challenger purchases. He wasn’t getting rich off them by any means! With that said, even at dealer cost, these were expensive items and I’m not accepting of Lionel’s consistent dropping the ball, VL or not. 

This is why I tell folks “Don’t be addicted”. When we accept subpar product we will continue to get subpar product.

I cancelled all of my VL Challengers. 

In no way mean any disrespect to you and your opinion.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

How's this video on what the sounds have/don't have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=161&v=icKyI-awMhg


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2019)

Thanks for the video, Gary. It sounds good to me, but I'm a semi-scale toy train guy and fidelity to the prototype isn't very important to me. Of course, if the sounds aren't right I would never know. I think Lionel did a good job.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Well, that jump start made it hard to tell what the sounds were like at slow speed. I want to hear multiple engines at slow speed, regardless of what the wheels may or may not be doing.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

OK, my last comment on this. I do not have one on order; I can't run O72. However, I feel strongly about having good sounds and Lionel has always had great sounds.

Here is a favorite YouTube video of 3985 accelerating hard from a stop. Once Steve closes the cylinder cocks, you can hear the beats of both engines. They are fairly close together (because the wheels are almost aligned), but clear. This is what i want to hear when an articulated engine is rolling out.






and here is my LionMaster 3989 doing the same thing. Again, both engines clearly heard. Notice the smoke is completely synced to the sound. This is LionMaster for goodness sakes. Half (or less) the cost of this VL Challenger. Interestingly, the catalog text does not mention this at all. Also, my LionMaster has two motors. How can a full scale engine have only one?

https://vimeo.com/152109808


I often run this engine a slow speed just so I can hear the sounds of both engines.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2019)

Norton said:


> I think the Golden Spike stuff has to be ordered by August 5th but the rest of the catalog is more like the end of August.
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete, I was talking to my dealer again today and forgot to ask him about a cut off date. either way it doesn't matter to me as my order is in.

Gary.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2019)

86TA355SR said:


> I’ll never understand why 3 railers are like this. The first complainers are the guys posting the extensive list of what they pre-ordered out of the next catalog. Repeat cycle each catalog. Then they’re “surprised “ more junk arrived at their door step. Some folks just love punishment!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It's all good. I get where you are coming from. I know the previous Challengers cost more. Value is only what someone is willing to pay. When I looked at the Challenger in the catalog I knew it was not the same as the previous VL Challenger from the price point alone. Then I read the features this one has. Obviously there are things missing from the original VL. In my opinion this Challenger should not have been called VL. People wanted this version to be the same as the previous version. They also have been complaining about Lionel's pricing. Quite vehemently I might add. I have been wanting a Challenger for a while. So, for me at the price I got it for, tested by my dealer on a layout pulling cars,( not just on a test bed ), I have piece of mind that it will function as stated. Also no shipping fees and hand delivered to me. Believe me my dealer does not put any faith in the little silver inspection sticker on the shipping carton. All that says is the cardboard is good. I have a set of the VL PRR 5 stripe Centipedes. Their price was heavy out of the gate. $2199.99 US. The set I have were in their box for 3 yrs. and then displayed on a shelf, under cover, for 2 yrs. Unfortunately the gentleman who had originally purchased them had to sell them due to pension issues. He was asking $1000.00 CDN. for them. I tested them on a layout and bought them for his asking price and thus began this little adventure. My point being they are very nice. Could 3rd Rail do as good or better job? Sure. Could Key Model Imports do a better job? Most definitely. Both companies would charge accordingly as well. Therefore I am sure I will be quite happy with this version of the Challenger for what it is. In no way will I ever consider it to be VL. That would be ridiculous.

Best Regards,

Gary.

p.s. Kicking myself for not ordering the VL NYC Niagara. In grey. All the bells and whistles.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“p.s. Kicking myself for not ordering the VL NYC Niagara. In grey. All the bells and whistles.”

Yeah. It was very tempting, even though I don’t run NE railroads.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

So did Ryan get ask or say anything at Nassau hobbies about theses?


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Good question!


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Hey it’s me again. Like I said earlier, sorry for the confusion I caused.

I don’t know if anyone asked Ryan while he was at Nassau. But it has been reported that Lionel is looking into this problem. I will update the forum once more details come out.

Personally, the chuffing doesn’t bother me. But I do understand why some others maybe annoyed. For me, since it’s still semi-prototypical (Yes I know the driving wheels and chuffing go in and out of sync on the real thing) I’m not too worried. I just got the 3985 and I’m still quite satisfied because it still looks, runs, and sounds fantastic. 

If Lionel is looking into a fix, I’d suggest one of two things (if Lionel stumbles across this post). 

1: Get new sound boards with the correct articulated chuff and offer to replace the original board. 

2: Send new boards out to dealers for them to either be installed there or for the consumers to purchase and install themselves (Like what MTH did for the kit to fix the smoke unit on the UP Veranda Turbine)


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

You don’t need new sound boards, they can be reprogrammed.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Hmm. Interesting. But how would you be able to reprogram the sounds if new software is released? Black Memory Module?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Oh heck no, only Lionel at the service center can load new sound files.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

So you’d have to send it in to Lionel for them to reprogram them. If so, alright.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> So you’d have to send it in to Lionel for them to reprogram them. If so, alright.


And since there’s two sound boards, one in the engine and one in the tender. Twice the fun.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Lets just hope those reports are true. Again, I’ll update this forum once new details come out. Thanks for the clarification. If anything comes out and I don’t notice, please let me know.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

You've gotta shake your head at the irony that zero information has come out of TWO Lionel back-to-back, in-person visits to the greater New York area this past weekend: one at Nassau Hobbies on Friday, and the other at Trainland/Trainworld on Saturday. Driving to Long Island was a bit out of my plans, and I didn't even know Trainworld was doing a Facebook Live event... or I would have at least posed a polite, general question about articulated chuff-sounds in the comments. But it appears nobody else did either... and Lionel clearly wasn't gonna volunteer anything further at this time. From what I listened to in the Facebook Live video, Lionel didn't even mention why the Challengers were held up in NC for most of July.  Smooth.... REAL smooth. 

Everybody is talking about how these locomotives are "sold out" at Lionel's warehouse level. So what's in the distribution system is all there is. Trainworld commented in their Facebook Live video event that they expect their "extra" inventory of Challengers will be gone by Christmas. And I suspect that's quite possible. The smoke features appear to be exquisite VisionLine quality; the locomotives have unique roadname/roadnumber crewtalk/towercom (which is always a nice plus when multiple trains are running on the layout); these gems "look" fabulous; and Legacy performance seems smooth as silk. So IF -- and that's a huge "IF" -- Lionel explains away the non-articulated chuff sounds being due to the drivers on this production-run of locomotives always being "in sync", then they'll suggest all this talk about non-articulated chuff sounds is much ado about nothing -- especially when that feature wasn't even listed in the catalog description to begin with. I can almost here it now.... Problem? What problem???  

As I predicted, most folks seem assuaged by what's been shipped -- even sans the non-articulated chuff sounds, with observations of the missing feature taking on mere rivet-counting significance. Nassau Hobbies started the week with 5 of their WM special-runs available. And as of this posting at the end of the weekend (their units just arrived Thursday), they're now showing only 2 units remaining at the full $1999 MSRP , while regular Challengers continue to sell for the $1,799 MAP "street price" at other dealers who still have a remaining stock.

So there you have it. Problem averted... and Lionel never even needed to say a word -- aside from Dean's letter which was more of a casual "non-response" that completely skirted the issue to get past the Challenger's opening weekend at dealers. Congratulations, Challenger enthusiasts. We've been played by the best without even realizing it. Well that's not completely accurate though, because at least a few of us refused delivery of our Challenger(s) because they came with less than a full VisionLine feature-set.

Any guesses what's on deck for Lionel's next unveiling? N&W "J", 2-10-4 Texas-class, or dare I even say it: the venerable and highly anticipated J3a Hudsons? Are ya feelin' lucky???


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I am looking forward to the new release of the C&O T1 (the locomotives that the Pennsy J1a was based on).


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

All I know is I'm saying my prays on the J3:welcome:


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Well I have seen the engineering sample on their Facebook. Looks promising.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2019)

On the other forum there are pics showing an as delivered Challenger with a loop of pinched wire protruding from under the boiler casing. I am sure some of you may know what Lionel was up to in there.

Gary.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

I just discovered that the Vision Line CC2 and 2-10-10-2 (both are also articulated) have no articulated chuff. Don’t know if that’s relevant here but I figured I’d throw it out that the new Challengers aren’t alone. Heck they’re in the same product line.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> I just discovered that the Vision Line CC2 and 2-10-10-2 (both are also articulated) have no articulated chuff. Don’t know if that’s relevant here but I figured I’d throw it out that the new Challengers aren’t alone. Heck they’re in the same product line.


I have the VL AT&SF 3000 (2-10-10-2) and frankly never noticed the lack of articulated sounds. But I take your point that the Challenger is not alone. That does not explain why the feature was deleted compared to the previous version or why the drivers are synched.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

According to the other forum, Lionel is fixing the sounds.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/visionline-challengers?reply=94910398867156085#94910398867156085


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> According to the other forum, Lionel is fixing the sounds.
> 
> https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/visionline-challengers?reply=94910398867156085#94910398867156085


The original post on the linked thread was a little obscure but it’s been clarified that Lionel can and will change the sound set to include articulated chuffs and will issue RMAs for that purpose. It seems that they will not change the synch of the drivers though as no mechanical modifications are being made.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> The original post on the linked thread was a little obscure but it’s been clarified that Lionel can and will change the sound set to include articulated chuffs and will issue RMAs for that purpose. It seems that they will not change the synch of the drivers though as no mechanical modifications are being made.


Getting the front drivers out of sync with the rear should be easy. I did it on my MTH challenger, and I think GRJ stated as such with this engine.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2019)

Nice of Lionel to add the articulated sounds to the Challenger. I will have to find a good video and compare the with and without articulated sounds to see if this is worthwhile for me. My main concerns are the extra shipping and handling of the loco as well some of the posts I have read regarding a repaired loco sent back to a customer with something else not working or broken.

Gary.


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Good. So I have to send mine into Lionel to have the fix done correct? If so, time to pack it up. When will the new sounds be available?

EDIT: They’re already available from what I have read. Regardless I’ll be sending my 3985 in.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> .... When will the new sounds be available?
> 
> EDIT: They’re already available from what I have read. Regardless I’ll be sending my 3985 in.



Gosh.... I sure hope the update to install articulated chuff sounds doesn't screw up the unique roadname/roadnumber announcements in the TowerCom/CrewTalk feature. That's a lot of sound-file updates Lionel needs to keep straight. How many Challenger SKU's did they offer? Gotta be 10 or so...

This is where having sound file updates available in the field or by users themselves would be highly beneficial.

David


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## SouthernRailfanGa (Jul 31, 2019)

Well, I’m glad that Lionel is offering to fix them. I shall be sending mine in soon. Nice to see them doing the right thing.


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## pennwest (Sep 21, 2015)

SouthernRailfanGa said:


> I just discovered that the Vision Line CC2 and 2-10-10-2 (both are also articulated) have no articulated chuff. Don’t know if that’s relevant here but I figured I’d throw it out that the new Challengers aren’t alone. Heck they’re in the same product line.





HarborBelt1970 said:


> I have the VL AT&SF 3000 (2-10-10-2) and frankly never noticed the lack of articulated sounds. But I take your point that the Challenger is not alone. That does not explain why the feature was deleted compared to the previous version or why the drivers are synched.



The ATSF 2-10-10-2 and the PRR CC2s are both compound Mallet locomotives. There are two high pressure cylinders that exhaust into two low pressure cylinders. The low pressure cylinders exhaust up the stack. Thus there are only two cylinders feeding the stack so they sound like any other locomotive (except for a brief period when starting from a stop).

Challengers and Big Boys are simple locomotives in that they have 4 high pressure cylinders that all exhaust up the stack. The exhaust from one of these should sound like a doubleheaded pair of regular locomotives like 2-8-0's, 2-8-2's etc.

The compound Mallets had the capability to feed high pressure steam to all cylinders for extra power when starting, so for a brief time they would have extra chuffs like a Challenger. Once rolling, they would switch to compound mode and lose the extra chuffs.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, I just tested a new VL Challenger out of the box, complete with the Lionel "Quality" sticker on it. It doesn't have articulated chuffs as expected.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

So am I understanding this right? If you are unhappy with the way your challenger sounds, you can call Lionel up get a RMA, send the engine to them on there dime to have the sounds changed out. Lionel is not issuing a recall, no major announcement, just word of mouth. Just like the PA diesels, before that, just like Pennsy H10 sound issue before that and just like the mogul before that. Do I have this right?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> So am I understanding this right? If you are unhappy with the way your challenger sounds, you can call Lionel up get a RMA, send the engine to them on there dime to have the sounds changed out. Lionel is not issuing a recall, no major announcement, just word of mouth. Just like the PA diesels, before that, just like Pennsy H10 sound issue before that and just like the mogul before that. Do I have this right?


Gary, I believe you have accurately captured Lionel's approach to "fixing" products that don't meet customer expectations. And given that the list of products falling into that category is growing with each container shipment, it appears to be standard operating procedure for Lionel these days. 

Although we've yet to actually HEAR how the updated Challengers sound, I would hope the update will bring this new model Challenger's chuff sounds closer to what was implemented properly in the last run of Lionel Challengers. If that's the case -- and no other screw-ups occur during the sounds update, then Lionel deserves credit for addressing this shortcoming. However, Lionel gets a huge double thumbs-down for NOT issuing a recall of Challengers still in the sales distribution channel. So unsuspecting buyers don't have a clue that (1) the articulated chuff sounds are absent on the newest Challengers, and (2) there's an option in place to upgrade the sounds at the buyer's discretion. So Lionel is not openly admitting to anything, and dealers are still selling Challengers as originally delivered.  

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Don’t forget they only did a mogul recall on OGR, no mass mailing to registered owners, no call out to other forums or groups and Lionel was wondering why they only got a small percentage back. Give me a break, can you see past your nose? Do I still sound bitter?:lol_hitting:


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> FWIW, I just tested a new VL Challenger out of the box, complete with the Lionel "Quality" sticker on it. It doesn't have articulated chuffs as expected.


John,

With Jon Z and Rudy now out of the picture at Lionel, one has to wonder what kind of "transition" took place viz a viz resident Railsounds talent at Lionel. Granted, Lionel still has a leg up with respect to the presence and depth of sounds in scale locomotives vs. what's available from any of the other suppliers in the marketplace. But who's now calling the shots at Lionel in terms of specific features getting implemented on each locomotive? 

We've seen the latest Railsounds hiccup being the lack of articulated chuffs on a VisionLine product. Who made that call? Not good. And I thought I just read another post where you mentioned something less than desirable about the sound boxcars. So who's watching over this kind of stuff?  Where's the next gaffe gonna be? StationSounds dining cars??? 

Once again, no warm-and-fuzzies here... and that's had a TREMENDOUSLY negative effect on my pre-orders (or lack thereof) for the 2019 Vol 2 catalog. Who needs the aggravation? Better to wait and see what's delivered. Then buy with no pressure, once we know for sure what it is we're actually buying.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

David, they have a new sound engineer, and I suspect he's not as up to speed as Rudy. Too many sound stumbles in the last releases since Rudy left, the H10, the lousy new sound boxcar, the Challenger, and I've probably missed several.

As far as the boxcar, I tested one over at Henning's, in a word, it sucks! OK, that's two words.  All you really hear is that incessant banging as it rolls, occasionally there is a faint rail squeal, but it's hardly noticeable with the loud banging. I think the sound guy thought that louder was better. In truth, it's much worse! What troubles me is, who is listening to these releases and approving them for production?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

In case anyone is wondering how Lionel's VisionLine Challengers *SHOULD HAVE SOUNDED* straight from the factory, here's a video somebody posted on the other place with the updated articulated chuff sounds. What a difference!!! Also note in the following video that the service tech also unsync'd the two drive units, which adds a more accurate "look-and-feel" to the articulated chuff effect. Not sure if all locos will get this mod, because the author of this video also mentioned he had an issue with one of his drive units, so the service tech reportedly made this mod while "fixing" whatever was wrong with that driver unit. Like we've been saying.... we can't make up this stuff. But we'll give credit to Lionel for at least addressing the articulated chuff issue.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/video-embed/t/0/c/98288330838866777/p/98288330838866819/a/true

So now the onus is on each Challenger owner to call Lionel for an RA, after which Lionel will reportedly pay shipping both ways to deliver the sound that should have been delivered in the first place. Gosh.... Lionel could have done this update in NC, when they were holding the Challengers to ensure these locos didn't have the issue where they didn't retain a new engine # during programming.

This has gotta start taking its toll on Lionel customer service... and Lionel's bottom line. 

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, you can take the boiler top off without removing the front power truck, so I suspect the driver positions will not be altered when they do this upgrade. It's extra work for them to do that, and I doubt they're interested in adding to the expense of this mod.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

UPS must love Lionel. A lot of heavy boxes going back & forth to the service center. At $30 to $40 a pop each way, has to be biting into the profit margins.

Bill


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> In case anyone is wondering how Lionel's VisionLine Challengers *SHOULD HAVE SOUNDED* straight from the factory, here's a video somebody posted on the other place with the updated articulated chuff sounds. What a difference!!! Also note in the following video that the service tech also unsync'd the two drive units, which adds a more accurate "look-and-feel" to the articulated chuff effect. Not sure if all locos will get this mod, because the author of this video also mentioned he had an issue with one of his drive units, so the service tech reportedly made this mod while "fixing" whatever was wrong with that driver unit. Like we've been saying.... we can't make up this stuff. But we'll give credit to Lionel for at least addressing the articulated chuff issue.
> 
> https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/video-embed/t/0/c/98288330838866777/p/98288330838866819/a/true
> 
> ...


While there's been a lot of Junk coming out of China which is mostly the factories fault and now Miss spelled Missouri from Korea which was a Lionel over sight. You have to give Lionel credit for backing their products, even if they are poop. At least you know it will be made right or if they can't you will get a refund.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, you can take the boiler top off without removing the front power truck, so I suspect the driver positions will not be altered when they do this upgrade. It's extra work for them to do that, and I doubt they're interested in adding to the expense of this mod.


I agree, John. The fellow who posted that video reported a problem with one of his drivers. So that's why Lionel touched it, and then mounted the drive wheels out of sync with the other engine. It adds to the effect nicely, because we're SEEING what our ears are HEARING.

But with the number of Challengers working their way back to NC these days, I don't expect Lionel CS will do any more work than what's required to update the sound board(s).

David

P.S. As far as I know, dealers are NOT sending their inventory of Challengers back to Lionel for this mod. So it will be up to the buyer to do it.  It's more of an inconvenience than anything though. Pay $1,800. Receive product. Then immediately call Lionel for the RA, and away your locomotive goes... and you haven't even had a chance to enjoy it yet. Yes, UPS must love Lionel.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

> P.S. As far as I know, dealers are NOT sending their inventory of Challengers back to Lionel for this mod. So it will be up to the buyer to do it. It's more of an inconvenience than anything though. Pay $1,800. Receive product. Then immediately call Lionel for the RA, and away your locomotive goes... and you haven't even had a chance to enjoy it yet. Yes, UPS must love Lionel.


I have to add to my post. Lionel is backing their product only when forced to. The fact dealers are not sending inventory back is very telling. Somebody buys this engine from a hobby store 5, 7, or 10 years down the road is Lionel going to fix for free?????


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Once a couple years goes by, Lionel is most certainly not going to do anything free on this locomotive!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Once a couple years goes by, Lionel is most certainly not going to do anything free on this locomotive!


Buyer beware finding one of these on Ebay, York, some auction house, train show or any train store.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

I haven't written much about this model because I didn't pre-order one. I am surprised at one aspect of the model that hasn't been discussed much: the huge gap between engine and tender. Steam locomotives and tenders have very small gaps between them, but our models have "gaps" to accommodate and prevent the engine cab from slamming into the tender. With that said, the Challenger's gap looks way too large in the videos I've seen - even for 072. I could be wrong on this but regardless Lionel should've installed their Kinematic drawbar. I have this drawbar on my S-3s, and they're not Vision Line. Of course, the catalog depictions show a nice prototypical narrow gap yet the delivered model is like a Railking challenger's gap - with the latter designed to handle tight curves.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

These have the Kinematic couplers that close up on the straight sections and open wider on the curves? I didn't notice sitting on a straight section that the spacing was that wide, and the lift-plate easily spanned the gap.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

John, I don't think the Challengers have them.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you're right Paul, I thought they had that feature. The VL Niagara has it, I wonder why a newer VL product omitted it. Probably for the same reason they omitted the articulated sound set.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think you're right Paul, I thought they had that feature. The VL Niagara has it, I wonder why a newer VL product omitted it. Probably for the same reason they omitted the articulated sound set.


Maybe there is a reason - it doesn't fit or can't handle an articulated's geometry, although I can't see what that would be. But I personally think this coupler is one of the best "gimmicks" anyone has come up with lately, a nice feature and to me, more desirable than simulated smoke water-spray from the tender or a coal load that rises and falls. 

So I'm puzzled that they don't add it on all their locos. Just one more way I don't understand them.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't think it's because it wouldn't work, I suspect it was just because they stamped out another run of the old Challenger molds with updated electronics (but missing the correct sounds). It's pretty slick on the Niagara, it really does improve the appearance on the straight track sections.


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