# Post War to TMCC or even LEGACY



## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Hello, I am wondering if it is possible to "upgrade" post war locos to TMCC or LEGACY. I really want to upgrade to LEGACY and I would like to run all present and future locos the same way (or at least TMCC compatible). Love to hear anyone knowledge of success in doing this. Thanks!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I looked at products from Lionel

Their electronics is leased to Electric rr co

Then I found the AC commander.

This will give you something to read. I a not sure if they are still in buisness.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

ERR is still very much in business, I just ordered $300 worth of kits from them! They're a part of Lionel now, so I doubt they're going anywhere soon. You may be thinking of Digital Dynamics, they recently called it quits. They were another maker of TMCC stuff.

There are no Legacy upgrades, so you'll have to content yourself with TMCC upgrades. I've done a bunch of these so far, so if you have any questions about the process, just ask away.  I'd identify one candidate and concentrate on addressing the issues to upgrade that first, then move on. Most PW stuff can be upgraded, typically diesels and electric models are pretty easy, steamers take a little more work.

There are also ERR dealers that you can sometimes get a better price from, I know that Bill at Modern Toy Train Parts offers discounts from 10-20% on units and combinations.


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ERR is still very much in business, I just ordered $300 worth of kits from them! They're a part of Lionel now, so I doubt they're going anywhere soon. You may be thinking of Digital Dynamics, they recently called it quits. They were another maker of TMCC stuff.
> 
> There are no Legacy upgrades, so you'll have to content yourself with TMCC upgrades. I've done a bunch of these so far, so if you have any questions about the process, just ask away.  I'd identify one candidate and concentrate on addressing the issues to upgrade that first, then move on. Most PW stuff can be upgraded, typically diesels and electric models are pretty easy, steamers take a little more work.
> 
> There are also ERR dealers that you can sometimes get a better price from, I know that Bill at Modern Toy Train Parts offers discounts from 10-20% on units and combinations.


So presently I have a 2333 NYC Diesel and a 671 (1946 version) loco, Id like to upgrade them both. I have read that most post war locos dont have the room required to install a tmcc upgrade and that either a dummy unit/tender/box car needs to be tethered some how with the speaker and boards installed inside. At the moment, I dont have a dummy unit for my F3 and I dont have a tender for my steamer either . I want to do this the most cost effective way and in steps. I imagine getting a hollow tender is going to be much cheaper than an F3 dummy, easily. Things to consider... 
If there is no way to upgrade to LEGACY I might just get a CAB1 set up (ebay grrrr.) because it will be awhile before I buy ANOTHER engine and who knows if I could afford a LEGACY engine any time soon . $500+ on an engine? or $500+ on switches!?!?  Thanks for the tips and links I am going to check them out now. Please let me know any other suggestions or tips you may have. I appreciate the help.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

It shouldn't be a problem fitting it in the diesel, unless you want to leave all the original E-unit/horn/battery equipment inside (the horn won't work off of TMCC).

The steamer will need a tender to do it. You won't fit the TMCC electronics in a postwar turbine. (especially the 46 version which has the dual powered axles?)


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

santafe158 said:


> It shouldn't be a problem fitting it in the diesel, unless you want to leave all the original E-unit/horn/battery equipment inside (the horn won't work off of TMCC).
> 
> The steamer will need a tender to do it. You won't fit the TMCC electronics in a postwar turbine. (especially the 46 version which has the dual powered axles?)


Yeah there's no room in that loco. Alright maybe the diesel will be the first one to get done. Thanks


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ERR is still very much in business, I just ordered $300 worth of kits from them! They're a part of Lionel now, so I doubt they're going anywhere soon. You may be thinking of Digital Dynamics, they recently called it quits. They were another maker of TMCC stuff.
> 
> There are no Legacy upgrades, so you'll have to content yourself with TMCC upgrades. I've done a bunch of these so far, so if you have any questions about the process, just ask away.  I'd identify one candidate and concentrate on addressing the issues to upgrade that first, then move on. Most PW stuff can be upgraded, typically diesels and electric models are pretty easy, steamers take a little more work.
> 
> There are also ERR dealers that you can sometimes get a better price from, I know that Bill at Modern Toy Train Parts offers discounts from 10-20% on units and combinations.


So John,I have a fairly new Willams P40h amtrak loco that I would like to convert to at least TMCC,the local train repair guy tells me $275.00 for the speed and sound board and labor, is this a good price ,or am I getting riped OR can or will you like to do this for me? ............mike


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Looks like hes charging 75-100 bucks in labor... ??


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

NorCalTransplant said:


> Looks like hes charging 75-100 bucks in labor... ??


see, thats what I don't know ,I don't mind paying a fair price, just never had one converted before, I just been buying Legacy,and PS-2,PS-3 locos....mike


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see $75 as being out of line for that installation. Is he using the Cruise Commander of the plain TMCC DC package. You can get the Cruise Commander and the RailSounds Commander for $185 + shipping from Modern Toy Train Parts. Note that he's probably not going to do things like get fancy with the lights, that can get pretty involved. For a simple installation for the cruise control and sound, I'd probably consider doing it for about the same, $75. As I said, lighting can be simple or go crazy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

NorCalTransplant said:


> So presently I have a 2333 NYC Diesel and a 671 (1946 version) loco, Id like to upgrade them both. I have read that most post war locos dont have the room required to install a tmcc upgrade and that either a dummy unit/tender/box car needs to be tethered some how with the speaker and boards installed inside. At the moment, I dont have a dummy unit for my F3 and I dont have a tender for my steamer either . I want to do this the most cost effective way and in steps. I imagine getting a hollow tender is going to be much cheaper than an F3 dummy, easily. Things to consider...
> If there is no way to upgrade to LEGACY I might just get a CAB1 set up (ebay grrrr.) because it will be awhile before I buy ANOTHER engine and who knows if I could afford a LEGACY engine any time soon . $500+ on an engine? or $500+ on switches!?!?  Thanks for the tips and links I am going to check them out now. Please let me know any other suggestions or tips you may have. I appreciate the help.


Take pictures of the diesel with the shell off and we'll see what we think. As far as the steamer, that installation would most likely be in the tender. The AC Commander might fit in place of the E-Unit, depending on the exact dimensions.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I forgot to mention, I'd still buy the Legacy #990 controller, even with just TMCC stuff. At some point you'll go for a Legacy locomotive, and the Legacy hand-held offers a number of advantages for even plain TMCC locomotives.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I don't see $75 as being out of line for that installation. Is he using the Cruise Commander of the plain TMCC DC package. You can get the Cruise Commander and the RailSounds Commander for $185 + shipping from Modern Toy Train Parts. Note that he's probably not going to do things like get fancy with the lights, that can get pretty involved. For a simple installation for the cruise control and sound, I'd probably consider doing it for about the same, $75. As I said, lighting can be simple or go crazy.


I would just like a head light going forward, reverse light going backward,and a nice sounding horn other than true blast,smoke would be nice but ...........
mike


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I forgot to mention, I'd still buy the Legacy #990 controller, even with just TMCC stuff. At some point you'll go for a Legacy locomotive, and the Legacy hand-held offers a number of advantages for even plain TMCC locomotives.


Interesting, like what? Is $275 a decent price for one?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

275 is definitely a good price for the legacy system (make sure you're getting the #990, not the #993 which looks like the 990, but the base is only a charger).

You get better speed control, more options on the key pad for extra features and if you get a legacy engine, you'll have the quillable whistle feature.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Big Mike said:


> I would just like a head light going forward, reverse light going backward,and a nice sounding horn other than true blast,smoke would be nice but ...........
> mike


Well, smoke is pretty basic if you have a smoke unit, and the simple directional headlights are easy if the lights are already there. The basic ERR AC or DC Commander, or the Cruise Commander has outputs for smoke, directional lights, and electrocouplers. Electrocouplers obviously add to the cost, and they can be easy or VERY difficult, depending on the specific design of the existing couplers.

I've spent tons of time customizing the lights on a couple of mine, I have one still in process that I had to start over when I found the neat red/white LED's I used were defective and kept dying! That's why I mention lighting as being somewhat of a wild card.

In summary, the basic installation for a single or dual motored locomotive with directional headlights and smoke is usually pretty quick, it's all the frills that adds to the time (and cost).

For steamers, you end up building a tether between the locomotive and the tender, and you also have to install the chuff switch for the steam sounds. That's the basic reason that a steamer is more complicated. Depending on the specific locomotive, making a neat installation of a tether can be a bit time consuming. The best installations frequently require some alterations to the locomotive for a neat looking installation.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

NorCalTransplant said:


> Interesting, like what? Is $275 a decent price for one?


You'll be paying more than that right now for a new one. There is a shortage of them right now, but Lionel has again started shipping them, so the prices should come back to reality soon. I believe the list price is $349, and when I bought mine in 2010, I got it from Wholesale Trains for $269. Hopefully in a couple of months, prices will return to somewhere near that point again.


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You'll be paying more than that right now for a new one. There is a shortage of them right now, but Lionel has again started shipping them, so the prices should come back to reality soon. I believe the list price is $349, and when I bought mine in 2010, I got it from Wholesale Trains for $269. Hopefully in a couple of months, prices will return to somewhere near that point again.


I just saw one on eBay for that price.

Edit n/m just saw its for the 993 set, $350? I'm almost at the point of "F that" and gathering up a CAB1 set up. If I can even find one of those, nice of Lionel to cancel one product and then create a shortage of another.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you see a Legacy #990 for $269, SNAP IT UP! You can turn it around for $50 more in about an hour. 

The reason that the CAB1 was discontinued is that the Legacy controller does all it did and more. The reason for the shortage was the parts issue in the Far East, I think the earthquake in Japan had a lot to do with some of the parts issues. FWIW, MTH was having the same issues with their DCS controllers, you can't get them right now either.

You'll pay $150 or so for a used CAB1/base, I'd really hold out for the Legacy, it's a much better system.

If you really want the TMCC CAB1/base, try this eBay Search.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

NorCalTransplant said:


> I just saw one on eBay for that price.
> 
> Edit n/m just saw its for the 993 set, $350? I'm almost at the point of "F that" and gathering up a CAB1 set up. If I can even find one of those, nice of Lionel to cancel one product and then create a shortage of another.


dude, thats not a deal,350.00 is list price but if you really want a CAB 1, I know were a brand new ,never touched one is,for ,I think $180.00..I think...........................let me know if you want it ,I'll tell him to hold it,
also he has a brand new 1.3 ver CAB 2 #993

FWIW.. thease units are in a local train shop,I am good friends with the owner.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The 2333 should be a good candidate for conversion. It has twin motors, an E unit, horn relay, battery, battery holder, and horn all in the powered unit. Take out the horn, horn relay, battery, battery holder, and E unit and there should be plenty of space for the electronics. Ditto the 2343. The 2353 has the horn in the dummy A unit.


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Big Mike said:


> dude, thats not a deal,350.00 is list price but if you really want a CAB 1, I know were a brand new ,never touched one is,for ,I think $180.00..I think...........................let me know if you want it ,I'll tell him to hold it,
> also he has a brand new 1.3 ver CAB 2 #993
> 
> FWIW.. thease units are in a local train shop,I am good friends with the owner.


Not sure where you thought I put 350 and deal together, but thanks a lot for the offer on the CAB, I think it might be best for me to figure out my layout and budget that before I upgrade even further. If and when I decide to go CAB1 or CAB2 I will hit you up and see if they are still available .


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

servoguy said:


> The 2333 should be a good candidate for conversion. It has twin motors, an E unit, horn relay, battery, battery holder, and horn all in the powered unit. Take out the horn, horn relay, battery, battery holder, and E unit and there should be plenty of space for the electronics. Ditto the 2343. The 2353 has the horn in the dummy A unit.


Roger that. Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When I strip a diesel locomotive for the TMCC upgrade, all that's left inside is the motors and perhaps the lamp holders. Everything else is pulled out.  

With the ERR stuff, you can run a single motor or dual motor locomotive. You can't run more than two motors, been there, failed at that.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I would think 2 motors would be sufficient for almost anything. With O-31 track, I can pull more than 20 cars with the loco if I can keep the couplers together and keep the cars on the track.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had a K-Line A-B-A all powered with two motors each. I wanted to put cruise control into it, but it didn't work. It ran for about one minute then shutdown. I used the ERR Cruise Control M module for engines with stock Lionel TMCC.

The curious thing is the Lionel DCDR, which has the same current capacity, ran the set just fine. The heatsink did get a bit warm after a spell, but it didn't crap out.

Since I couldn't equip it the way I wanted, I sold it and recovered my money.


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

NorCalTransplant said:


> Not sure where you thought I put 350 and deal together, but thanks a lot for the offer on the CAB, I think it might be best for me to figure out my layout and budget that before I upgrade even further. If and when I decide to go CAB1 or CAB2 I will hit you up and see if they are still available .


ok,cool , I went by there today and he has three new cab-1 sets $180.oo plus shipping I posted this incase someone else wants one.........mike


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you are a bit patient, you can have the Legacy system for about $100 more street price. I'd really recommend you wait for that option. I have both, and I'd take the Legacy in a heartbeat, even running plain TMCC stuff.


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## plandis (Oct 5, 2011)

OK- so to add (convert) TMCC to an old pre/post war loco, you need the AC commander AND a R2LC AND, if you want sound, you need a sound board? and all this plugs into the ac commander. right? three major components to the conversion. Yes?


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## plandis (Oct 5, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you are a bit patient, you can have the Legacy system for about $100 more street price. I'd really recommend you wait for that option. I have both, and I'd take the Legacy in a heartbeat, even running plain TMCC stuff.


John- what does legacy do for you on older TMCC equipped locos? Is there more cool stuff already set up in the old TMCC boards in the loco that cannot be accessed with CAB-1?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

The AC commander kit should come with everything you need to get TMCC, then you need the railsounds kit. Only two kits (the R2LC should be a part of the AC commander kit).

The Cab-2 legacy remote will really only give you improved speed control with TMCC engines. Other than that, everything functions the same way as with the cab-1 remote.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

First off, you don't need the R2LC separately, the AC Commander comes with an R2LC. Actually, now it ships with an R4LC, same functionality. I just got an AC Commander and was surprised to find a different card, but it works the same. You will need the RailSounds Commander for sound. The RailSounds Commander is a separate module you'll mount and run the cable to the AC Commander.

I'd recommend you download the installation manuals from the The Electric Railroad and look them over, they'll answer a lot of questions.

As for Legacy with TMCC, the old CAB1 only runs in relative mode for TMCC locomotives, however the Legacy runs them in true TMCC mode. You'll also get a nice speed bar on the display to tell you what the throttle setting is. You get better brake function as well. 

A key thing is it's something that will be supported in the future and updated as well. 

For stuff like Crane Cars, it has a neat overlay that tells you what all the buttons do, for the CAB1 you have to guess.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

santafe158 said:


> The Cab-2 legacy remote will really only give you improved speed control with TMCC engines. Other than that, everything functions the same way as with the cab-1 remote.


The brake works different, with the CAB1, when you release the brake the locomotive takes off again.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Most TMCC engines (even my non-powered legacy SD80) came with a plastic overlay for the cab 1 buttons. I've memorized them pretty well though and don't need to use them anymore.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I just got the crane, so I don't remember those buttons.  I do have a ton of those plastic overlays for steam, diesel, and electric. I didn't find one for the crane in the box, I wonder if they shipped one for it?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I just got the crane, so I don't remember those buttons.  I do have a ton of those plastic overlays for steam, diesel, and electric. I didn't find one for the crane in the box, I wonder if they shipped one for it?



Locomotives are easy, cranes would be a different story.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gosh, even I remember the buttons for the locomotives.


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