# 9x9 around the wall ideas



## CasperFLSTC

Hi to all

Massey "called me out"  in another thread for having a 5x8 table in a 9x9 space. I have to agree with him, there isn't a ton of room around the edges. This is my first layout and I had been struggling with a lack of knowledge in not only trains in general but also ideas on how to get "what I wanted."

I had looked at around the rooms but couldn't quite find one that met my visions.

What I have below is essentially two modules back to back. On one side is a small town (edge actually) and a farm (the colors), while the backside is a mountain environment with a place for rock climbing, hunting cabin and some other type of scenes.

My other consideration is my 6 y/o grand daughter who loves to play trains! So I was looking for a continuous loop.

With Massey's comment and a fortuitous visit to my local modeling club's traveling exibit, I'm actually back to thinking of doing what is essentially 2-3' wide modules around the three walls with the 4th having some level of buildup (4-5') with a removable section. The good part is this "room" is actually an open space offset in the garage so I don't have doors to worry about.

I'd appreciate any comments as to how to make an around the room layout that would work and give me some continuous operating.


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## Massey

I didnt mean to "call you out" but having a 9x9 myself I know the space constraints you are in. Your track plan on the table layout looks pretty good for a table but will fill that small room really fast and not make the railroading experience very enjoyable. If you can measure out the room and let us know where the doors and windows are we should be able to help you develop a track plan that will work with your wants and desires. Here is what I did in my little space (this was my working plan but I made a few changes as I laid track and discovered things about my design)










I have changed the area in the northern part to now allow me 3 industries, instead of just one and the east leg of the wye now leads to staging under the yard that was not planned in the first design. 

Massey


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## Big Ed

Did you read this in his post, massey?

The good part is this "room" is actually an open space offset in the garage so I don't have doors to worry about.

May I ask what scale would this pertain to?


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> I didnt mean to "call you out" but having a 9x9 myself I know the space constraints you are in.


My humor didn't translate very well  

I didn't once take offense and actually appreciated the thought that went behind the comment.


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> Your track plan on the table layout looks pretty good for a table but will fill that small room really fast and not make the railroading experience very enjoyable.


Believe me that was a source of some of my "discontent" as soon as the table was built. I can get around the sides (it's more of a 9 and some by a fairly loose 9. Hard to explain but it isn't so much a room as an offset portion of the garage. Think of it more like a three sided room with no 4th wall. Window is up over 7 feet so its not a factor. Essentialy I have three walls free and clear for my use.




Massey said:


> Here is what I did in my little space (this was my working plan but I made a few changes as I laid track and discovered things about my design)


I've seen your build thread and I was pretty amazed at what you did with your space. Espeically the "lower level" staging.

At this point I think most of my "problem" is a lack of imagination as to what it could be. I went to a model RR club "show" this past weekend and saw how they built their modules. Basic 2' x 4' sections linked together. After this morning I"m thinking that is what I probalby need to think about. Having a long wall with a couple of scenese and some track (one outer mainline for the continuous) and one or more inner lines.

So the bottom line is that I believe most of my "issue" is I can find nothing that I had seen to date that "would work." Mostly because I have only (up till this weekend) seen the table round and round style layouts.

I do appreciate comments and input as I try to work through this.


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## CasperFLSTC

big ed said:


> May I ask what scale would this pertain to?


This is an HO layout.


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## Massey

DOnt worry I didnt take any offence. I am a pretty laid back kinda guy I dont offend easy and I have thick skin so I can take a ribbing better than most. If I was not thick skinned I would have been in deep water in the Navy (pun intended).

Since you have room then the table layout should be fine but I did notice one issue you are going to have. ON the west side you have what kinda looks like a passing track or something like that. THe way you have your switches, the setup will not work. You are only going to have enough room to run the engine and maybe one car up to the dead end and clear the points of the switch. This will pretty much be usless track unless you are going to have an extension to the north west or south west.

Here is a very similar track plan I made a few years ago.










This is built on a 5x9 table and functioned quite well for a small layout. I can also post pics of the bench construction I designed it to be semi portable and each major section bolts together and can be disassembled for storage or transportation.

Massey


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## Massey

Most NMRA modules are made in 2' increments and the typical module is 4' long. The minumum width is 24" but most people go with 30" or 36" to accomidate corner modules better. The outer tracks must be placed at 5 and 7 inches from the end to the centerline, and the track ends inset 4 1/2". This allows your modules to link up with anyone elses NMRA compliant modules. Now if you want some thing different that is all good you dont have to build to NMRA standards but you will not be able to link yours to others. THe layout pic above is a modular layout. It's table top is made of 4 interlinking smaller tables to make one 5x9 table. Those are then bolted to the bench and all the wiring is attached with molex plugs from Radio Shack. Somewhere I have more pics of the layout with some of the schenery done but I dont know where I saved them at the moment. 

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

*Around the wall*

Thanks Massey for the input. Should have known a fellow Navy vet would provide good advice  Retired CT1 here.

I have been putzing with AnyRail this evening and came up with an "around the wall" type layout that I think provides me with more track space in the long run.

The bundle on the west side is the middle line merging back to the main line at the deck level and moving above the mainline to hit the curve in the lower west corner to head up the incline. Future work will be two complete circuits rising 3" per 9" run ending in a "yard" layout at 67" above the floor. 

But that is in the future.

Town to the west, farm land etc to the east and mountain/highland to the north. Purple is a duck under.

Comments?


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## Massey

This looks pretty good but you have a short sight seeing run where you could have a nice large long run with the bench you thinking of using. IF you would like I can try my hand at a track plan for ya.

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> This looks pretty good but you have a short sight seeing run where you could have a nice large long run with the bench you thinking of using. IF you would like I can try my hand at a track plan for ya.
> 
> Massey


I'd appreciate any help you'd care to offer. 

I still have trouble envisioning what this would look like when built. I did have some problems with the first try - not the least was the crowding "in town" - so I moved stuff around and ended up with some more room. This may be a tad better.


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## Massey

What is your grid spacing on those drawings? Best I can come up with is 4" and you would have 3' benches on each side. 

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> What is your grid spacing on those drawings? Best I can come up with is 4" and you would have 3' benches on each side.
> 
> Massey


It was set to 3" when I took the snap. Checking clearance. The goal is to have 3 foot bench all around which sould give me a 3x6 space in the middle for control. Back edges (n, w, e) are the walls while S is open to the garage.


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## CasperFLSTC

*My Layout moving forward*

After some level of back and forth here is what I have come up with. It is a picture of the ENTIRE concept such that the industries, buildings and notes are present to demonstrate what I am thinking of doing.

I want to thank Massey for the idea of breaking it up to an along the wall concept and to Cabledawg who, while not directly to me, provided input on a layout - his response to an old thread gave me a boost to seeing how to incorporate a yard layout that provoked my mind to get to this point. Also to everyone else who has made patient comments to my few questions so far.

The general concept is completely freelance and to provide a basis for my leaning how this works. Also to provide a base for the family to get involved and have their goes - thus the 'round and round' for my granddaughter who thinks this is all just a big "playground toy" anyway  (and honestly for me who still has a hard time grasping the go along ht ewall stop and come back concept. Maybe its just a toy for me too :laugh.










Three "modules" (not NMRA standard obviously) to provide a small rural/suburban town with a passenger service terminal and some other points of interest, a farm (for my wife who wants chickens (more like fela specks if you ask me) and the industrial yard/freight area.

Yard operations with a smaller switcher loco to combine trains and push to the freight yard. Freight trains to run out through the scenery and potentialy deliver to the town freight office for furher dispersion. And my "small" passenger service to run around and see the countryside.

Till I can convince the wife to give up the living room or another bedroom somewhere this is the space I have available.

Already thinking of expansion I could install a switch in the outside southern line and move out into the garage using NMRA module concepts or possibly go up/down and build other level decks. But that is WAY down the road.

Comments and thoughts are always appreciated.


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## CasperFLSTC

OOps forgot to state that the red triangles are vision blocks to provide a transition from one "module" to another. The orange "blips" are "cars"


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## Massey

Hey looks pretty good on this run! Sorry I forgot about drawing up a track plan for ya I have a couple of ideas that I would like to try if you dont mind. The farm scene could not only have a train running through it but what if there was a grain elevator that was added in there to provide some added switching for you. I have my computer here with me at work today and I am going to start on it now. 

Massey


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## NIMT

I would avoid your vision blocks being very tall. large vision blocks make it extremely hard to work around. In a small set-up like this it's better to make small hills with cut's in it for the rail lines. That breaks it up without it being overwhelming! A dense row of trees and shrubs can also get the same effect of breaking areas up.


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## Massey

OK I got a track plan make up for you. I think you may like it! View blocks will not be needed, I kept the farm, but I moved it and added grain silos for some rail action at the farm. I made a 4 track yard that is more efficent than the yard you build it includes an engine escape on the intake track. There is also a place where you can put an engine maintenance shop, or turntable or both even. Since this is a small town I left you with a single main but put a long passing siding there and the siding also is the lead in for one of the industrial spurs. There is plenty of room for the city, industrial, and town parts of the layout just as your track plan shows. Also have a spot that may work for some mountains or even just a nice forest. The benchwork is 24" east and west, 30" in the north and there is a 36" x 12" section in the south that is a lift out for easy access. I cant post the track plan here at work but I will do it soon as I get home. I can E-mail you the XtrkCAD file too if you want.

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> I can E-mail you the XtrkCAD file too if you want.
> 
> Massey


I'd like to see what you came up with. I don't use XtrkCAD but I'll see about downloading to to load up your file and take a look.

I have broken my tables down and have a 30" on East West and 24" along the North and south. But I can adjust the North South and since the sides are less than 30" that can shrink in as well.

I have laid out track per above and I'm not totally happy with it. Mostly because of my own carpentry oops - I have one side about 1.5 - 2" lower than the other (do NOT ask me how that happened). So after running a loco around I do realize I need to fix that and make it even. Elevation may be a good thing but not when its unplanned :laugh:.

Sorry for not responding to the replies earlier but I got sort of side tracked and missed em .


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## CasperFLSTC

NIMT said:


> I would avoid your vision blocks being very tall. large vision blocks make it extremely hard to work around. In a small set-up like this it's better to make small hills with cut's in it for the rail lines. That breaks it up without it being overwhelming! A dense row of trees and shrubs can also get the same effect of breaking areas up.


Thanks for the words of advice - I was trying to figure out how to do that and make it not look "tacky."

As I've said before not having done this I tend to lose perspective of just how close some of this is and how much room can be taken up wiht a relative small scene. In my head this is a majestive landscape but when I get to the table I keep getting back to reality.

So any and all comments that come from those with experince are highly appreciated.


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## Massey

Sorry this is kinda long but I hope it can help with your bench building.

The way I set up the landscape on my idea the scenes flow together almost like in real life where you have a town, flows into a larger city which has the industrial areas. Since this layout is doughnut shaped I also made the road go over the yard lead and main and the road leads off layout. The road helps divide the scenery in this layout. 

I know you would love to see it... Sorry still at work.

For the benchwork, once you get the tables framed take them to where they are going to be perminatly. Lets say you are wanting the layout to be 45" high. Your table sides are made out of 1x4 and your top is 1/2 inch. Your legs idealy need to be 44 1/2 inches tall to make the proper height. This is going to depend on your floor being perfectly level, and all things considering this is rarely the case. if you know your floor has a slope to it you may want to measure the slope's drop, and add that to the length of your legs if it is more than an inch or so. To measure the drop in the floor get an 8' board and a level. Place one end of the board at the highest point and place the level on the board. Lift the low end until the bubble shows level and then measure from the floor to the lower point of the board's end. This is the amount of extra length you will need to cut into the legs that go there. 

OK now that you know your floor is not level and you have made legs that will be long enough to account for this you need to temp attach them to the table, level the table, then perminatly attach them. You may need help here but if you are good you can get away with doing one side at a time. Lift the table, attach the legs with "C" clamps but dont worry yet about how high they are just get them attached and the table on at least 4 legs. Get the other side up on its legs so your table is now on 4 legs. (you may need center supporting legs but we will worry about them later. Also this job is much easier when table tops are not on the framework). Go to one end of your layout and measure it to the proper height. Use the level to get the second leg on that side to the correct height and also level. Now put the level in the MIDDLE of the table going lengthwise and repeat the leg adjustment until the bubble is level, also check width wise at the ends, middle and other end too to make sure there is no twisting. Once the table is all level and everything is happy you may attach the legs to the table frame in your favorite fashion. Once you have one part of the benchwork set up you then use that as a referance for the rest, and if you get it all nice and level each time you add another piece your benchwork will be nice and level all the way around.

Measuring from the floor to the table will only work on level ground, dont assume your floor is level even in your own house. Use the level to double check yourself at every step. A 3' level is the smallest I would recomend, if you have a longer one for the length checking use it. The longer the level the more accurate in most cases, also a longer level will help you find warped wood even if you cant tell with your eyes. 

Also make sure to attach each piece of benchwork to the one before it and attach the one after to that securely. If not the parts of the layout will move independant of one and another in the climate changes. This could post a problem with tracks warping, cracks and a whole mess of other issues. If you build your benchwork secure then your railroad will have fewer issues down the road. My layout is in a non insulated no climate controlled shed and I built my layout following the few tips I mentioned above and I have no issues with my tracks or removable section now that winter is fully set in around here. OH and I assembled the benchwork and trackwork in the middle of the summer. I did leave gaps in my rails every few feet to help take in the temp and wood changes, like i said no issues.

Massey


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## Massey

OK this will be a much shorter post. Here is the layout I made today at work.










I hope you like it.

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey

I like the idea. I have, and continue to draw up, two tracks because in my head I want one traain able to move around while I work with anohter. I do understnad that is what passing lines are for but haven't gotten one in that I like. Your design shows me one way to do that.

I do have a question though and it again goes back to my newbie pre-conceived notion that a train has to go "forward" and pull a train as opposed to pushing a train.

I put together a manifest train and pull it out of the yard with my locomotive pointed "forward" (for a GP38 for example the cab in the back and hood in the front -- like the way I can insert real terms in here now lol). So I pull out and am moving to the east away from the yard. I go through the town and stop at the northern industry. I can back the train in and drop off some cars, pull out and continue. I can hit the farm/grain silo siding with the same concept - pass by and back in.

How do I get to the town industry? Every manner that I come up with either has me dragging or pushing cars to the track and then going west to get there. Or I end up with the loco at the idustry and "stuck" till the cars are loaded.

Here is that latest modification of my previous layout. I modified this after "running a train" in my head and realizing I wanted more of a yard.

I have this laid out on my benchwork and hooked up but not permanently down as I am following the suggestions seen serveral times here and elsewhere ot use the track for a month or so to be sure it is what I want.

In its current iteration it is a single "stretch" of the same area as opposed to four distinct and separate scenes. The "Farm" at the south will be a farm but more of a rural environment as opposed to a full up farm. Sort of hilly and out of town but not "Kansas" in what it does.

The North is a full on freight terminal company with the siding/fregight building. A truck warehouse for drop off pick up and forklikfe workers scurrying between.

West is the yard with an engine maintenance are to be configured (still debating that turntable in the northwest to turn the locomotives around and get some "other direction" action going.

And of course the town in the east.

I actually had to modify my yard to get the top "exit" as I was so restricted I couldn't get a train of longer than three cars to back out of hte yard with. Now I can pull them onto the long yard track (about 6-7 cars worth) and pull them out in one smooth move onto the yard exit and onto the lines for going whereever. The multiple loops are distance 

The image is not lined up correctly because it is representative of what I did when "hand laying" and updating. I need to tweak the image file so I have an accurate representation. I also removed all of the "detail" (roads and such) so it wouldn't bury the track.

One detail I truly LOVE from your plan that I had imagined when laying track down was an elevated highway going by the tracks (or over as in your case). That is something I will definately consider to provide some 3D depth.










I'm going to work on a combination of our concepts and see about getting mine down to a single track with passing sidings and incorporate some industry in the town.


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## Massey

OK my operating ideas you picked up on in all but one place and that is the in town indistry. This area gives you a little bit of a switching challenge that will keep things interesting. For this location you need to use the passing siding and the main to get all the cars where they need to be. Your cars to be set out in this location will need to be in the rear of the train. Pull upto and pass the switch, uncouple and use the main as a run around. This time take the switch and go pick up your car, pull the car out and use it to grab the car that is to be set out. Back the car to be set out to the loading dock and back the train back out and couple the car you picked up to the end of the train. Run back around and grab the train from the front and carry on. or you could use this as a time to reverse the train and head the other direction. Diesel engines unless they are full cab models can use long or short hood as forward.

Now in your design I see the west side as a loco mess. Your NW area has a switchback that is not large enough to move more than just the engine or one car. There is no way to get more than that through that switch back. The passing siding leading into the yard or industries is a good idea but the way you did it left your yard almost useless. The 3rd and 4th tracks are only going to be able to hold 1 40 or 50' car and you may get 2 cars in track 3. Track 1 and 2 look ok but if you run and engine in forward you are going to have to wait for the yard switcher to free up the engine. I can only guess that the little side track before the yard is for the yard switcher to hide out of the way.

I can understand your desire to run 2 trains at the same time, I built my first 2 layouts with that ability and I found really quick that I was dissatisfied with the rest of the layout as a whole. My next 2 layouts were single main and had areas for 2 trains to pass one and another, this was much more fun to operate and I enjoyed running trains on these layouts far more than the other 2 layouts. If you are just into railfanning then your double main would prolly be best, if you are into the whole package of railfanning and operating then I would suggest going with a single main with passing sidings. On a layout of much larger footprint a double main in areas of high or opposing traffic would be the best thing to use, but smaller layouts single mains give more.

And please dont think I am being harsh about your design, I know mine is not perfect and I did not know how to make good track plans when I started (hence the 2 failures) but I am giving you advice that was given to me about some of the same things I did when I started out. Please do not take offence.

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> And please dont think I am being harsh about your design, I know mine is not perfect and I did not know how to make good track plans when I started (hence the 2 failures) but I am giving you advice that was given to me about some of the same things I did when I started out. Please do not take offence.


I don't take offense at your comments and constructive criticism tempered and founded upon your experiences. It is what I am looking for. I'd rather NOT replicate someone else's disappointments just so I can learn the lessons the hard way. I'm all for leaning by someone else's efforts (boy does that read baddly).

Having said that I was already hesitant at what I put together so I do appreciate the input.

I'm going to move with what you have. My wife will get another opportunity to poke me  she says I'll be at this a year and not have moved one train LOL

I'll start working on a track plan based on what track I have avaialble and see where i can get with this.

Thanks, and for the explanation of the town industry. You know in all of my thoughts I never once thought of disconnecting the loco and moving it around to move some cars  That's what I mean by enjoying the voices of experience. I tend to think of it linearly as opposed to multi-deminsional.


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## Massey

Well lets see what you can develop and we can go from there. BTW what type of track are you using?

Massey


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## CasperFLSTC

Massey said:


> BTW what type of track are you using?


Atlas Code 83. I've been tempted by some of the PECO curved turnouts but they are too pricey for where I am at for budget.

Don


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## CasperFLSTC

*Latest updates*

Ok, here is what I came up with using your layout as a "guide" as it were. Adjusted a couple of elements (lake from north to south for example) and changed the "farm" into a nice rural plot of land due to space.










I went down and measured. While my "room" is 9x9 the benchwork is actually only 8 feet with a 6" indentation for access to an attic space as reflected in the picuture (long story but its space for a ladder to go up. Since its right up against a garage door the frame makes me have to have an encroachment).

I do like this much better. I didn't have near the hassle of trying to find room for a two-track all around. And it certainly does break up the appearance of a "round and round".

The trees are reflecting scenery breaks (probably trees in the south, but in the north I'm actually going to use both your suggestions. I'm going to take the spur and rise it up and behind the main track ending up at the edge of the eastern bench into a small plateau. That will be the foundation for someting. Log camp, mine shaft, something. To add depth I came up with the idea of running the track straight to the wall, placing a tunnel portal in some scenery against the wall and painting the inside black to give the appearance of a continuation (I'll just have to remember to stop early :laugh.

The two "buildings" are anchors for me that I have to have. The rest I can fill in as I find space and need.

Thoughts?


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## MarkAlt

Don't want to break up the thread, but all of these layouts are amazing. Massey; your old "table" layout looks great.

These latest are far beyond me in scope, but maybe in time?

Keep up the great work and inspiration!


Best,
Mark


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## Massey

Thanks Mark.

Casper it looks like you have a working plan to run with here, go for it.

Massey


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