# IC Socket Enlarger



## Bwells

Does anyone know if there is an enlarger for IC chips? I'm needing something that will spread the pins out to larger then the normal 1/10" spacing. 2/10" would be perfect but I have not found anything. Thanks, Brian.:dunno:


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## gunrunnerjohn

How would that work? You'd have to have an IC stretcher as well to make it work!

I'm obviously missing something, how about telling us what you're trying to do.


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## Bwells

I have a 16 pin IC that I would like to make a PCB for but the spacing between the 8 pin sides is to close for me to work with. I was thinking about a socket that a standard chip would plug into but have pin outs that are larger than the normal 1/10", sockets pins that would fan out to give me more room to make the traces.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Are you saying that .1" spacing is too small to work with? When I lay out a .1" spacing IC, I have room to run a trace BETWEEN the two pins, so I'm not sure what's going on with yours. Here's just a sample, I manually routed the trace around the pins on .1" centers. I probably could get two traces in there, I just didn't try.


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## Bwells

Exactly, John. Your hands and eyes are better than mine but this is what I have in mind


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## daschnoz

Dead bug the chip.

Find somewhere to mount the chip, pins up. Use a small dab of epoxy to hold the chip in place (just enough to hold the chip - you don't want it touching the pins and possibly conducting between pins). Solder SOLID (as opposed to stranded) jumper wires to the pins, then solder the jumpers into the correct holes on the board, or insert the wires into the proper location if you are using a socket. It sounds like the pins are pretty close together. Make sure you don't create solder bridges. 

This is a very common practice in the music equipment repair business. Many times, older equipment contains obsolete ICs with non-standard (proprietary) pin-outs. Sure, any quad op-amp will fix the mixing console, but the specific one with THIS specific pin-out hasn't been made since 1983. Time for a dead bug.


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## Bwells

Now that is an interesting idea, never thought of it!! I need to sleep on that one but it looks doable I think. Thanks for the idea!!
:smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm still confused. Are you designing a circuit board or hand wiring something?


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## Bwells

I'm designing a PCB using 1/16" pinstripe tape to mask off the traces before etching. I am unable to get the tape for the pins without touching.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Why not do it with a PCB layout package? You can still create the film for photo etching, but you can do a lot nicer job, not to mention it's a WHOLE BUNCH EASIER!

Take a look at DIPTRACE for a fairly simple and complete layout package.

Do the standard layout, then preview the finished board at 1:1 resolution. Here's a sample set both positive and negative. This was a double-sided board, so the traces don't necessarily make sense, but it works just as well for single sided. You can also easily leave out the board outline so that doesn't run into copper, this was a quick and dirty demo to show you what's possible.

Diptrace also has a very easy to use manual trace routing capability so you can do whatever you need to do, I use it occasionally for some traces, but usually I let the auto-router do it's thing.


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## highvoltage

I second a layout package. While hand laying traces might give you a sense of accomplishment, the frustration level will probably negate any pleasure derived from the process.

Besides, if you have to redo the board for any reason, all you have to do is make your change in software and re-run the batch.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I still have the taping for a 5" x 10" I/O board done in the 80's, it had 42 thru-hole IC's as well as a sprinkling of discrete parts. It was a MASSIVE undertaking, and I never want to do that again! Changes were a nightmare, and verifying what you had was all manual and error prone. 

Nowadays I do the parts placement, turn the auto-router loose and the run the DRC and schematic comparison to make sure everything was picked up.


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## highvoltage

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I still have the taping for a 5" x 10" I/O board done in the 80's, it had 42 thru-hole IC's as well as a sprinkling of discrete parts. It was a MASSIVE undertaking, and I never want to do that again! Changes were a nightmare, and verifying what you had was all manual and error prone.
> 
> Nowadays I do the parts placement, turn the auto-router loose and the run the DRC and schematic comparison to make sure everything was picked up.


Just think how far we've come in 30 years. Imagine what the next few decades will bring.


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## wvgca

At one time layout tape was available in suitable sizes for hand work, especially at 2X .. not any more..

The closest that I could find was 1mm tape [on eBay], which would give a trace a little less wide than the space between standard DIP's .. only 2/3 the width of the 1/16" tape that you are using now ...
might make it easier for you?? 

Another alternative is to cover the PCB i good quality packing tape, then cut out the traces you want with a razor knife .. peel the traces off and paint, then peel the rest of the tape off and etch .. oops can be patched with oil paint and a small brush ..
I have done this before in the past, but while usable, none turned out pretty enough to take a picture of


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## Lemonhawk

I tried a "simulation" of isolation routing. I used DipTrace to do the schematic and PCB art. Messed with the placement and routing parameters until it made a single sided PCB. Then I used FlatCam to make gcode files from the gerber and drill files. I then retrieved version 1.1 of GRBL and compiled if for the Nano. Loaded the Nano with GRBL (not connected to anything). Then I used Universal Gcode Sender to send the gcode files to the Nano and watched the "simulated" picture on UGS do its thing. All this is free software and it all seems to work. I'm just missing that last piece, the actual milling machine! It took about a hour for the Nano to make the PCB as it works in real time. The PCB had 2 DIP packages, 4 SMD bridges and assorted SMD resistor and a few thru hole caps. It was an interesting process. DipTrace seems to be a really nice package. FlatCam works but was a little clumsy. UGS worked like a champ, along with the Nano GRBL software. Can't wait to try this on a real machine. Impressive software at least! Now to look at WVGCA's milling machine a little closer.


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## daschnoz

I've actually done the following:


Draw the layout in AutoCadd as if I am looking through the board.
Mirror the circuit layer then print it on adhesive backed paper. It needs to be mirrored otherwise it will be backwards.
Cover the board (copper side) with electrical tape.
Apply the previously mentioned print-out over the electrical tape.
Cut with a razor knife to expose the copper that I want to remove.

It's not optimal, but it does work. I have done double sided boards using this method with good results. Use the lead from the mounted component on one side as the bridge to the other side (no through-plating on the holes). The boards that I did were power supplies for tube amps, so the smallest trace was 1/4" wide and I didn't have any ICs, but I would imagine that it should work if you take your time.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Doing the PCB in AutoCad is doing it the hard way! A free PCB application will knock out the boards very quickly and allow you full design rules checking automatically.

In years gone by, the PCB layout and schematic capture used to be the things I dreaded the most, the design was easy compared to actually turn the design into something that can be produced! Now it's child's play to crank out a PCB, it's like night and day.

Really guys, stop screwing around with the wrong techniques and you'll find that creating a PCB is very easy.

When you have the design complete, send the files to OSH Park PCB Fab and in a couple of weeks you can have PC boards for a very competitive price. The beauty is it's all automated and you can order three 1" x 1" boards for $5, and they're shipped free! Here's the latest order I just got back.


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## Bwells

wvgca said:


> The closest that I could find was 1mm tape [on eBay], which would give a trace a little less wide than the space between standard DIP's .. only 2/3 the width of the 1/16" tape that you are using now ...
> might make it easier for you??


Thanks Warren, I think you understand what I am trying to do. I just masked off an 8 pin IC and it was a ***** cutting the tape. No way would I try a 16 pin! I'll look for the 1mm tape but even then, the 16 pin circuit requires me to sacrifice a 30 row breadboard.


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> Thanks Warren, I think you understand what I am trying to do. .


In the meantime, you can try trimming the 1/16 tape where it gets close to the DIP pins, razor or Xacto knife ..
Kind of depends on how good your eyesight is, and how steady you can brace your hands ..
I dug up my tape down stairs, it came from Bishop Graphics, but they are gone now.. and my DIP and pad dry transfers are from Letraset, but their web site doesn't show those anymore now ..


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bwells said:


> Thanks Warren, I think you understand what I am trying to do. I just masked off an 8 pin IC and it was a ***** cutting the tape. No way would I try a 16 pin! I'll look for the 1mm tape but even then, the 16 pin circuit requires me to sacrifice a 30 row breadboard.


Am I missing something? If you're taping to make a PCB, why not consider the PCB layout package? If I'm not understanding what you're trying to do, perhaps you could be a bit clearer. Are you NOT trying to fabricate a real PCB? You said...


> I have a 16 pin IC that I would like to make a PCB for but the spacing between the 8 pin sides is to close for me to work with. I was thinking about a socket that a standard chip would plug into but have pin outs that are larger than the normal 1/10", sockets pins that would fan out to give me more room to make the traces.


I'm trying to show you an easy way to do this without worrying about tape, steady hands, etc. If I'm way off, please let me know and I'll stop posting here.


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## Bwells

No, you're not way off. I watched the tutorial for dip trace and it looks fine but to get that drawing stuck to a PCB ready for etching is beyond me. I'm am not going to send some some random diagram to a maker for 1 board. The one I am working on has an IC with 8 pins and I masked it off the best I could and will etch it tomorrow and see how well I did. The distance between pins is a bugger and thought of soldering this scares me. It will be fine and it will get done and work, I think.:stroke:


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## Lemonhawk

If you have this breadboarded, how about using one of these breadboard PCB's
https://www.pololu.com/category/32/prototyping-pcbs


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## Bwells

I have not breadboarded this and just hoping it works. I do have a breadboard PCB from radio shack but the circuit did not lend itself well to that route. This is what I have and I am not happy with the traces at the IC. All traces are 1/8" and the board measures out at 2 3/4 by 3 1/2". The lines at the lower right are a felt pen and a paint pen that when I etch this, I will see if either of those can withstand the etch.


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## wvgca

An oil base paint pen works reasonably well as a resist, and a Sharpie marker is mostly okay with two or three coats, but is not as strong of a resist [been there] ..

If you can learn any of the PCB design softwares, another alternative is the 'toner transfer' method, but you will also need a laser printer..

If all else fails, you could post the schematic and someone could do a PCB design, and post it to OSHpark or similar so that you could get your boards.. but I for one do understand the desire to have a PCB 'same night' 

By the way, those 1mm wide rolls of tape are commonly used for 'nail art', so they may be available to you locally? If you are not real neat on your cuts,you may need Sharpie or paint pen touchups anyways..

With a fine tip in your soldering iron you should be fine soldering standard DIP spaced leads ..


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bwells said:


> No, you're not way off. I watched the tutorial for dip trace and it looks fine but to get that drawing stuck to a PCB ready for etching is beyond me. I'm am not going to send some some random diagram to a maker for 1 board. The one I am working on has an IC with 8 pins and I masked it off the best I could and will etch it tomorrow and see how well I did. The distance between pins is a bugger and thought of soldering this scares me. It will be fine and it will get done and work, I think.:stroke:


I'm missing something still. Why do you have to "stick" the drawing to a PCB? Like I said, all you have to do to photo etch it is to print the PCB to transparent film, readily available at your local office supply depot. I'm not sure what I'm looking at with that tape job, but it looks simple enough to knock out in DipTrace in half an hour or less from schematic capture to PCB image. The beauty of sending the PCB out is OSH Park does this stuff for peanuts in prototype quantities.

Do you have a schematic for what you're trying to create?


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## Bwells

Here is the schematic as well as the PCB diagram I drew up.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Here's a quick cut at what you can have for around $10 for three boards from OCH Park. I put the LED on a header since I figured you wouldn't want it on the PCB.


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## Bwells

Wow John, that was quick and small, about 1/6th the size of what I had planned. I'll check OCH Park and see what I need to submit an order. Do I have your permission to use what you drew? Thanks for doing that. I mentioned to Dave Johnson when I asked for his permission to use the schematic, that if I used a commercial supplier, I would send him one as well as the PCB diagram as he doesn't have one and people have asked if he did.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Sure, you should check the schematic for accuracy before you submit it, the board should match the schematic, at least DipTrace thinks it matches.  If there's a tweak, let me know, or I can send you the DipTrace files and you can tinker. 

I've attached the Gerber files to this post in a ZIP file. You just need to drag-n-drop it when OSH Park asks for the files, the rest is pretty automatic. I started the process on OSH Park enough to see what it costs, it was $10 & change for three boards.

It took me just about half an hour to do that from your diagram. Note that I didn't take great care to optimize the layout of the PCB, not that it would need it. I just plopped the components on there to make the board as small as reasonable without taking a lot of time. I used 1/8W resistor footprints for most of the resistors, and 1/4W footprints for the two low value parts for the LED.


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## Bwells

John, I ordered 3 last night and received an email stating that I was on the DEC 24th panel and then off it goes to the fabricator. I take it they don't make the boards, sort of a middleman. OSH loved your Gerber files and you were right, click and drag, done deal! Thanks for your work and I will mail you one when I get them. The LED slowly builds and then flashes and then slowly dies out like a real lighthouse.
Question: on the drawing, I see R= resistor, C = capacitor, U = IC, and Q = transistor. Is this standard notation for the components? If so, is there a list of these for other components as well?
Thanks again.


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## johnfl68

OSH Park takes a bunch of different board orders from everyone, and puts them all up together on larger boards to run because is is cheaper to have larger boards made.










This means it takes a little longer to get your boards, but you get a really good price.


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## Lemonhawk

I guess that's one of the advantages John has working on O-gauge stuff, he can cram one of those boards into the engine


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bwells said:


> John, I ordered 3 last night and received an email stating that I was on the DEC 24th panel and then off it goes to the fabricator. I take it they don't make the boards, sort of a middleman. OSH loved your Gerber files and you were right, click and drag, done deal! Thanks for your work and I will mail you one when I get them. The LED slowly builds and then flashes and then slowly dies out like a real lighthouse.
> Question: on the drawing, I see R= resistor, C = capacitor, U = IC, and Q = transistor. Is this standard notation for the components? If so, is there a list of these for other components as well?
> Thanks again.


I'm glad the boards will work out. I do hope you checked over the schematic to see if I screwed up!  I had already done a trial run of the Gerber files at OSH to see if they spotted anything wrong, so I was pretty sure they'd take them.

There are a host of nomenclature for parts, and it's not always 100% consistent. Here's one chart of typical reference designators.


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## Bwells

I received this e,ail from OSH yesterday. Just as Johnfl68 said:

Your boards are being made as you read this! 
We've sent the panel containing your boards to the fabricator. We expect to get them back around January 5th. 
In case you're interested, there are 44 other orders on the panel along with yours, adding up to a total of 261 boards. Neat eh?

They sure keep you updated, I like that! They are running ahead of schedule, maybe the employees are trying to get the 24th off, hope so.


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## gunrunnerjohn

OSH Park apparently has this all automated, you get the exact same message about the number of orders and boards each time they send it off. It's a great service, I've used the snot out of it since I found out about it. Very convenient...

You'll probably get them just about two weeks from now. Note that if you want thinner boards, you can specify the .031" ones with the 2oz copper. Nowadays, I use them most of the time, I never want my modules to be any bigger than they have to be. The 2oz copper is a bonus as well, thinner traces still carry the current.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Lemonhawk said:


> I guess that's one of the advantages John has working on O-gauge stuff, he can cram one of those boards into the engine


Oh, I don't know, my boards have been smaller than some I've seen being done for HO in this very forum.


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## Tom_C

Quick question, sort of off topic.

I haven't built any pcbs in nearly 20 years and software for home use seems to have progressed (duh). Did you just dump the schematic into diptrace and it ran the layout automatically?

Last time I designed a board the auto-route function was crap. I was never satisfied and would end up nearly redoing all the traces myself.


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## Lemonhawk

Dip trace does a nice job in routing. Sometimes you need to give it a little help by setting up some rules, but when its done you may have very little that you want to change. It autoplaces first then it will route.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I typically place my own components using the ratlines to try to minimize the trace routing issues, then turn the autorouter loose. Once in a while I manually alter a couple if I don't like something it's done, but for about 98% of the layout, the autorouter is fine. Yes, even ten years ago, the autorouters were crap, today everyone seems to have a decent one.

The reason I picked DipTrace was creating a new component is a lot easier than in something like Eagle. I found the Eagle component build to be pretty painful.


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## Tom_C

Back in the mid nineties I was working in the field of electronics and designed some stuff for personal use. At that point in time I spend around $600 to get a 'home' version of CAD/PCB layout software. I finished that project and then switched careers and haven't really had a need for anything new. I don't really have a need now, but even for very small projects using diptrace and OSH park looks very attractive.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I love OSH Park for prototyping something, I get three boards quite quickly and can build a prototype for peanuts of a new project. It affords me the ability to simply go to copper for any prototype, if I screw up, it's dirt cheap to just spin it again.


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## Bwells

The chips are on their way! Question: when it is a two layer board, I assume some of the traces are on one board and the others are on the second board and then sandwiched together but how do the traces between the two connect? is it a sleeve of some sort that is internal? Just curious. I looked at the trace gerber John provided and wow is it a maze. I see pink lines which are probably on one layer and red traces on the other. Looks like a real PITA to make!


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> how do the traces between the two connect?


where the traces go from one layer to another, it's basically a small hole [called a via] that is then plated from one layer to another...


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## Tom_C

Like wvgca said, 2 sided boards are just that, a board with copper on both sides and then a via will connect a trace on the top to a trace on the bottom. 4 layer boards (or more layers) have 2 of those boards sandwiched together, with vias that connect the various layers.

Side topic. On the board I designed years ago I had the ground on one side tied to the power on the other side, connected with a via. DOH! I just drilled it out and fixed it with a jumper. Stuff happens.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Remember, for a 2-sided board, the traces are all on the surface with the plated-thru holes and vias just drilled clear through the board. They're pretty easy to make. When you get to 4-layer or more boards, then a whole bunch of things come into play, alignment of the layers, buried vias, etc.


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## Bwells

Boards are in town and should have them tomorrow so I will see. I would assume these vias are not visible.

John: Please PM me your address and I will send a board and all the components to make it. I'm should have the 22MΩ resistor soon. What the heck is a 22 megaohm resistor? I would call it an open circuit!


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## Tom_C

Bwells said:


> I would assume these vias are not visible.


No, they will be visible (these are 2 sided boards, right?)

They will just be a plated through-hole that looks like any other hole for components. Sometimes they may be filled in with solder or plating, but all the ones I remember seeing have been a hole. I haven't seen any of the new boards, but I assume the process hasn't changed.


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> ...What the heck is a 22 megaohm resistor? I would call it an open circuit!


 Not really, just a very high value. In theory an open circuit is infinite resistance.


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> Boards are in town and should have them tomorrow so I will see. I would assume these vias are not visible.


They will just look like little bumps if you look closely ..
The drill file image shows that the VIA holes are much smaller than the component mounting holes ..
Once they are plated to establish the connection between the layers they are pretty much filled in ..
And when they add the solder mask it hides them very well ..

Images attached
I just uploaded John's gerber files to OSHpark, and saved their preview images ..


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bwells said:


> Boards are in town and should have them tomorrow so I will see. I would assume these vias are not visible.
> 
> John: Please PM me your address and I will send a board and all the components to make it. I'm should have the 22MΩ resistor soon. What the heck is a 22 megaohm resistor? I would call it an open circuit!


Thanks, I'll wait for the test of the completed board here, there may be mods before you go to press.


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## Bwells

Tom, OSH park calls them two layer boards, not two sided. Possibly the top layer will have traces on the bottom, then glued to the bottom layer which has traces on the bottom with the via holes drilled and then some kind of green shellac over the bottom of the bottom layer and then holes for the components. I'll find out when the mail lady gets here! Seems like there would be an easier way to do it.


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## Tom_C

Post a pic if you can. I wouldn't expect there to be any 'sandwiching' going on, but you never know.

I expect it will be double-sided (or 2 layer  with a soldermask (green epoxy) and silkscreen (white lettering), but what do I know?


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## Bwells

wvgca said:


> They will just look like little bumps if you look closely ..
> The drill file image shows that the VIA holes are much smaller than the component mounting holes ..
> Once they are plated to establish the connection between the layers they are pretty much filled in ..
> And when they add the solder mask it hides them very well ..
> 
> Images attached
> I just uploaded John's gerber files to OSHpark, and saved their preview images ..
> 
> View attachment 264810
> 
> 
> View attachment 264818




Warren did.


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## Tom_C

I saw them; I guess I meant to post a pic if they look different


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bwells said:


> Tom, OSH park calls them two layer boards, not two sided. Possibly the top layer will have traces on the bottom, then glued to the bottom layer which has traces on the bottom with the via holes drilled and then some kind of green shellac over the bottom of the bottom layer and then holes for the components. I'll find out when the mail lady gets here! Seems like there would be an easier way to do it.


They're standard double-sided boards, I've received a ton of them from OSH Park for a few different designs already. There are no board "layers", just copper on both sides. A "two layer" PCB is just copper on both sides, that's the standard industry term.


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## Bwells

Well, well, well. What do we have here?







The little bag says
Made in a plant that processes peanuts and is made by Jelly Belly Candy Company. How cool is that!
The PCB's do indeed have traces on both sides and the vias are visible like you guys said. Time to solder.:appl:
P.S. Are the square boxes the ground?


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## johnfl68

The square pads are typically Pin 1 on IC's, Transistors, and Resistor Packs, and Negative terminal on Capacitors, LED's and Diodes.


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## Bwells

OK that's what I thought, thanks John.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The squares are only ground if you put ground on pin #1.


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## Bwells

Need help, which is the positive and negative of this .01µF cap?


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## Bwells

This is it but it doesn't say bipolar
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/ncd103m50z5utbf/nic-components


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## gunrunnerjohn

That's a ceramic cap, it has no polarity.


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## wvgca

It's a non polarized ceramic cap... doesn't matter which way it goes in ...

oops,didn't see john's post until I posted my reply ..


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## Bwells

Well shoot howdy, thanks!


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## Bwells

OKAY, how about this one. This is a 22MΩ 1/8 watt resistor yet it has no bands. Here is the link to what I have.
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/rn55d2205fb14/vishay


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> OKAY, how about this one. This is a 22MΩ 1/8 watt resistor yet it has no bands. Here is the link to what I have.
> https://www.arrow.com/en/products/rn55d2205fb14/vishay


It will have writing on it that will denote part number and value.


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## Bwells

It says
DALE
1645
RN55D
2205F

I see a 22 in there but no megaOhm.
Where are the bands or is this such high resistance they gave up on them? It looks like it could be an axial cap!


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> It says
> DALE
> 1645
> RN55D
> 2205F
> 
> I see a 22 in there but no megaOhm.
> Where are the bands or is this such high resistance they gave up on them? It looks like it could be an axial cap!


220 followed by 5 zeroes. 22,000,000

It can be done in color codes, but in this case you now have the manufacturer, part number, and the value. Allows you to completely replace the component if needed. Since it's a metal film resistor, not carbon based, writing the part number and value on the component is the preferred method.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's a 1% part, so the 550 is all significant, then the trailing 5 is the extra five zeros. If it were 5515, it would be a 22.1 mohm resistor. RN55D signifies a metal film resistor type.


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## Bwells

WOW, that is a strange way to do resistors but it sure looks better than your standard ones with the bumps on each end. Never would have guessed the value by looking at it. John, you have one ready to go to you just like it!:cheeky4:


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## highvoltage

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's a 1% part, so the 550 is all significant, then the trailing 5 is the extra five zeros. If it were 5515, it would be a 22.1 mohm resistor. RN55D signifies a metal film resistor type.


Johh, I see 2205 not 5505. Also, 22.1 would be 2215.


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## Bwells

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's a 1% part, so the 550 is all significant, then the trailing 5 is the extra five zeros. If it were 5515, it would be a 22.1 mohm resistor. RN55D signifies a metal film resistor type.


This gizmo is M Ohms as in mega, not m Ohms as in milli.


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## gunrunnerjohn

OK, 5, 2, what's the difference? 

I wonder where my head was when I was typing that!


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## Bwells

I found this and have it taped to my monitor







You can always ask your friends by knowing how many yoctos are in a yotta, if you can count that high!


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## Bwells

The leads on the resistor are rather large for such high resistance, larger than 22 ga, more like 20 ga and getting it thru the holes was a job. I used a 28 oz. framing hammer and then seated it with a punch, I don't think any solder is required here, press and go!


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> This gizmo is M Ohms as in mega, not m Ohms as in milli.


True, but a Mega ohm resistor is much more prevalent than a milli ohm resistor. In fact a milli ohm resistor is pretty much just a piece of wire.


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> The leads on the resistor are rather large for such high resistance, larger than 22 ga, more like 20 ga and getting it thru the holes was a job. I used a 28 oz. framing hammer and then seated it with a punch, I don't think any solder is required here, press and go!


I'm pretty sure you're kidding.


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> I found this and have it taped to my monitor
> View attachment 266354
> 
> You can always ask your friends by knowing how many yoctos are in a yotta, if you can count that high!


Wouldn't it be 10 to the 48th power?


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## Bwells

Yep, but I use the more common term, "bunches"!


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## Bwells

highvoltage said:


> I'm pretty sure you're kidding.


So I should solder it?


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## Tom_C

Bwells said:


> So I should solder it?


I would


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## Bwells

I think I see a problem. Besides the fact that it doesn't work except as a small heater, it appears that the input connections are reversed as well as C3, the tant cap. This is assuming that the square boxes are negative. All the traces seem to be correct and I did not check Q1,Q2, or Q3 for correct polarity. C1 and C2 are nonpolarized so I'm good there. If you follow the traces from posi LED, it goes through R10 and then makes a home run to the negi input. I think if I unsolder C3 and reverse it as well as reversing the input leads, it may work. Right now I have a 7806 soldered in for the input and can't seem to get it unsoldered. Bummer:dunno:


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> ...Right now I have a 7806 soldered in for the input and can't seem to get it unsoldered...


Where is it mounted and how did you attach it? And a second question would be, if you were planning on using a 7806, why didn't you have John add it to the schematic so it would be a part of the board? Just wondering.


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## Bwells

like this:







John has done enough and it wasn't part of the original schematic and I didn't think of it till afterward.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The square box on C3 is positive. BTW, it's very easy to add that regulator, if you want that on the board, just ask.  We could also have the rectifier and filter cap to make it AC powered...


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## Bwells

And the square box on J1 but not the square box on J2?


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## gunrunnerjohn

The square pin is always pin 1, so if you look at the schematic, you can see what the pins are. I probably swapped one of them in my haste. 

I did recommend you check over the schematic, it slapped it together pretty quickly. 

I'll make you a new copy with all the pin-1 connections as positive. Do you want the regulator and/or the parts to make it AC powered?


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## Bwells

John, you added something from your original post but I plan on connecting it to my 12 VDC buss so no need for the AC stuff. Adding the 7806 is not a problem I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong. So far I see only two problems but I can't get the damn components unsoldered. I think I did too good of a job!!!


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## Bwells

Opps, didn't see this one. No, don't bother, I think I can make it work as is. Yes you did ask me to check it but I couldn't open the files at that time. I needede the kid to do it! Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Here you go, Rev. 2.0. It has the AC input with the regulator and capacitor. And, all the square pins are positive.


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> like this:
> View attachment 267074
> 
> John has done enough and it wasn't part of the original schematic and I didn't think of it till afterward.


I think I might be seeing the problem. If the square pin on J1 is indeed positive, then you have the GND of the 7806 on the positive input.


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## highvoltage

Okay, GRJ posted an update to the board. But I think you fried some components on your first assembly. Hence the heater you mentioned.


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## Bwells

Geez , you are confusing the heck out of me! I see the 7806 and the diode and the cap but can you print all the traces? The bottom layer is missing. 1 3/4" is a little large, just kidding.


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## Bwells

highvoltage said:


> Okay, GRJ posted an update to the board. But I think you fried some components on your first assembly. Hence the heater you mentioned.


Yes, very possible so I think it all goes in the trash.the chip was HOT and so was the 7806.


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## Bwells

johnfl68 said:


> The square pads are typically Pin 1 on IC's, Transistors, and Resistor Packs, and Negative terminal on Capacitors, LED's and Diodes.


Is the stupid square positive or negative, I think I need to know.


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## gunrunnerjohn

In the case of DipTrace libraries, the square pin is the positive lead of the capacitor. I rearranged the diagram so that the square lead was positive on the connectors as well. Finally, for the reverse side of the board, I put these legends on it to further reduce confusion.

This one will run on AC or DC. Connect the + of DC to the square terminal of the power if using DC.


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## Bwells

highvoltage said:


> I think I might be seeing the problem. If the square pin on J1 is indeed positive, then you have the GND of the 7806 on the positive input.


Exactly and also the tant cap(C3) in reversed, neither of which I can remove. I have a feeling they are toast along with the chip. It was HOT! Well, maybe not C3.


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## Bwells

In lighthouse 2.0, I took the traces from the back and started putting them on the front. The 6 volt + from the 7806 goes to pin 8, corrrect, but now what? I started from +LED and it goes thru R10, check, then has a sideleg to R1, check, then a side leg to R7, check, then sneaks up under the chip and buzzes over to R6, check, oh oh dead end! In the front diagram, I drew 2 possible places to get to the 6+, one from pin 8 or 1 from R6 under the cap to the via just below and to the left.
I think I am going to breadboard the circuit first and see if it actually works, which I should have done in the first place.


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## Bwells

It is now breadboarded but missing the 130Ω resistor for the LED. I still want to study the three transistors and make sure they are correct. The chip was the one I pulled out of the first attempt so it is acting as a place holder now until I can get a new one. I do see one on my desk but it is packed up for John, I may have to steal it!:stroke:
Opps, forgot this


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## highvoltage

Breadboarding will verify the design, which is a good idea if you're not sure the design is correct.

But I think in your case the issue was parts misplacement in the final build, which a breadboard won't solve.

As John said, follow the layout on his board to make sure it matches the schematic. I'm sure you've been doing that, so that is time well spent.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Double and triple check the layout, I'm not actually building one, so I'm just following my nose.


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## Bwells

Lighthouse 1 looks correct but I assumed all squares were negative, J1 it is positive, C3, it is positive and J2 it is negative.
Right now I have the circuit breadboarded and it doesn't flash, LED stays lit. This time I used a PN2222 as opposed to a 2N2222 but they seem to be the same thing. I'm also using 2 BS170P instead of a BS170, not sure if they are the same. At pin 5 the schematic shows 1 volt, I get a voltage that goes from .2 to .5 and then jumps to .6 and drops back down. I'm still checking the breadboard but it sure looks correct to me. The circuit has been around for a long time and I have found it on a couple of different websites so I would suspect that if it was wrong, someone would have noticed. Must be on my end.


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## wvgca

2N2222 and PN2222 are the same, but a P2N2222 has a different pinout ..
the only difference between the BS170 and the same with a P suffix is the current rating, standard is 500ma, and P is 270ma...


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## Bwells

Yes, I noticed that with the P2N2222 and the PN2222 but I am using the PN2222 so good there. I started checking actual readings across the resistors and found some to be way off! R1 and R2 are supposed to be 4.7M but I'm getting 1.8M with a color code of YVG. I think Digikey is pushing their tolerance a little too far. R5 at 5.6M I get 3.5M GBKG. I don't know if this is the problem but Digikey is off my list, Arrow now.


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> I started checking actual readings across the resistors and found some to be way off! R1 and R2 are supposed to be 4.7M but I'm getting 1.8M with a color code of YVG. I think Digikey is pushing their tolerance a little too far. R5 at 5.6M I get 3.5M GBKG. I don't know if this is the problem but Digikey is off my list, Arrow now.



Before you get too excited, check the battery in your meter, or try another meter


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## Bwells

Battery is good but I did not remove the resistors from the circuit, just checked across them so I imagine the signal found a different route. A 4.7MΩ now reads 4.2MΩ. Digikey is now back on my list! I think I am at a dead end here as I do not see anything wrong with my breadboard. :dunno::stroke:


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> ...At pin 5 the schematic shows 1 volt, I get a voltage that goes from .2 to .5 and then jumps to .6 and drops back down...


If you take a close look at the schematic you'll see that the input to pin 5 is a modified sawtooth. In order to properly view and measure the waveform you would have to use an oscilloscope. A meter will fluctuate, just as you're observing. If you're serious about getting into electronics an o'scope will be an invaluable tool.


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## Lemonhawk

Probably one of the few times that the cheap DSO138 would work! There is an newer version that has simpler controls and a comes with a case. http://www.banggood.com/search/dso202-digital-oscilloscope.html
its the DSO 158, but the 202 looks really nice and useful but its $100.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have just the 'scope for you.  I bought one of the DSO138 scopes and the plastic case to tinker with and see how they work. It's a great scope for a beginner, but obviously I already have a much more capable digital model, so I don't really need it. Mine looks like this except it has the optional plastic case. I also have a matching power brick to complete the set.


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## Lemonhawk

Hard to beat the price. but is its limited in bandwidth! I have the DSO138 also, drilled some holes in the case to get at the probe adjustments. Get the version that's completely "welded" to avoid a lot of tedious soldering!


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## gunrunnerjohn

That's what I bought, it ran right out of the box. I think with the case and power pack I have less than $30 into it. It's fine for a hobbyist to look at stuff like we're talking about.


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## Bwells

highvoltage said:


> If you take a close look at the schematic you'll see that the input to pin 5 is a modified sawtooth. In order to properly view and measure the waveform you would have to use an oscilloscope. A meter will fluctuate, just as you're observing. If you're serious about getting into electronics an o'scope will be an invaluable tool.
> 
> View attachment 268049


Yes, I understand that and that connection is the only place I can check. I figured that my Fluke would not display the current due to a upload delay but I thought I may as well check. It does appear that something is happening at that point that makes sense so I think my problem is farther down the road which is the BS170 and 2N2222 pinouts. I have google the pinouts many times and still think my breadboard is correct. I don't know what to do at this point except to call it a bust. It just makes me mad when things don't work and I'm sure it is on my end but I'll be damned if I can see it.:dunno:


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## Bwells

Take a look at this pic. In the center are the two BS170's and to the left is a cap. To the right is the PN2222. Both the BS170 have a noticeable bump on the top right and the PN2222 on the top left. Do these mean anything or are they just flash from the mold?


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## gunrunnerjohn

The package on the right looks cooked, I can't tell about the other two. Those look more like molding marks. You can test transistors with a multimeter, they test like two back to back diodes.

How to Test a Transistor & a Diode with a Multimeter


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## Bwells

Interesting test! The PN2222 passed all tests. Can this be done for the BS170 also?


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## Tom_C

Off topic, but what is a decent inexpensive digital scope nowadays? I know decent and inexpensive may not belong in the same sentence. I can see having a scope would be very useful but haven't really *needed* one for over 15 years cause I haven't been doing any design work. Last time I used one it was an HP about the size of a small foot locker and weighed about 50lbs


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> Interesting test! The PN2222 passed all tests. Can this be done for the BS170 also?


A BS170 is a MOSFET so its circuit model is a bit different. It looks like the picture below. Drain to Source will test like a diode. Gate to Drain and Gate to Source will behave a little differently. It's been over 40 years since I took Circuit Theory so I'm a bit rusty!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bwells said:


> Interesting test! The PN2222 passed all tests. Can this be done for the BS170 also?


Similar technique.

Testing a MosFet


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## highvoltage

Tom_C said:


> Off topic, but what is a decent inexpensive digital scope nowadays? I know decent and inexpensive may not belong in the same sentence. I can see having a scope would be very useful but haven't really *needed* one for over 15 years cause I haven't been doing any design work. Last time I used one it was an HP about the size of a small foot locker and weighed about 50lbs


The one GRJ mentions above (DSO138) is only $23.00 (in kit form). Haven't used one, but he seems to like it. But it's limited in its use, only has a bandwidth of 200 KHz and a sample rate of 1 Msps. In other words, you get what you pay for.

I'm with you, although I preferred Tektronix o'scopes and HP for everything else. Tektronix scopes just seemed to be more intuitive for me.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Tom_C said:


> Off topic, but what is a decent inexpensive digital scope nowadays? I know decent and inexpensive may not belong in the same sentence. I can see having a scope would be very useful but haven't really *needed* one for over 15 years cause I haven't been doing any design work. Last time I used one it was an HP about the size of a small foot locker and weighed about 50lbs


The Rigol models get good reviews. Here's one that looks pretty nice.

RIGOL Digital Oscilloscope 100MHz DS1102E


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## Lemonhawk

If you want a cheap and portable Scope look at post #108. John's Rigol scope is really nice for the price. There are also scopes that involve a PC for display, but I think that just complicates the use. The newer version of the 138 that has the case and easier controls would be the cheap one I would pick now. But the $100 one that looks like a phone is intriguing. I would get them with the PC board all soldered ("Welded").


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the little $100 scope is not NEARLY as capable as the Rigol. I figure less than $30 for one is in the throw-away category, but when you get to $100, I'd rather spend the extra money and get a real high quality scope. I got the DSO138 to tinker with and see what capability it had, and it's interesting as a hobbyist tool, but if you need a real 'scope it falls short.

I have the ADS 1102CAL myself. I don't rate it as high as the Rigol, but it's worked well for me. With 100mhz bandwidth and 1gig sampling, it's a real piece of test equipment with similar specifications at the Rigol I posted. I didn't know about the Rigol when I bought mine or I'd have probably considered it.


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## Tom_C

I don't see the 'welded' units on that site. I also don't see the 158.

I put that Rigol in my watch list. My philosophy on stuff is that I don't want to spend a lot of money, but I also don't want crap. I don't see myself doing any high speed stuff, but sometimes it would be nice to have something more capable that a meter to see whats going on.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Once I got a real 'scope, I don't know how I worked without it.  I have an old 50mhz analog 'scope, but it's been a loooooooong time since it was powered on.


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## Bwells

Lets see if this works. First time I have done a youtube:


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## Bwells

It worked! On the original schematic, there are three places to make adjustments. Flash rate, LED peak flash current, and LED ramping current. To me it seems to slow to flash point and it never actually goes out. There is a slight hint of a flash at the brightest point but I think I need to adjust the resistor that controls the flash rate, seems slow, as well as the ramping current, what ever that is. Hey, it sort of works!!!


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## wvgca

glad that you got it together .. 
now you can fine tune as you desire ..


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## Bwells

The question is which way on the resistors? The flash rate is the hardest as my stash of resistors don't go that high. The other two points I can deal with. As it sits, I would say that it is weak at best!


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## Tom_C

Bwells. I found something that might be what you're looking for... of course you won't have the satisfaction of building it yourself.






http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=575

It should be a little slower in my opinion and maybe the company can give you info on adjust the rotation speed.


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## highvoltage

Bwells said:


> The question is which way on the resistors? The flash rate is the hardest as my stash of resistors don't go that high. The other two points I can deal with. As it sits, I would say that it is weak at best!


His schematic points to the 1M resistor to control the flash rate. My guess would be to try a 2M resistor. If that doesn't make it flash faster go with a 510K. Once you're headed in the right direction then fine tune to your desired flash rate.


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## highvoltage

Tom_C said:


> Bwells. I found something that might be what you're looking for... of course you won't have the satisfaction of building it yourself...


Actually it comes in kit form, so those who are interested (like me) will be building it.

To me it does a better job of simulating a rotation by ramping up slowly and then hitting the LED with a short burst of current. It looks like the other schematic tries to do that, but doesn't quite achieve the same result.


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## Bwells

Tom, I ordered one and it should be here today. I got the kit so you still have to solder it up.
Highvoltage, that was my thought also. I didn't look for a 510 on digikey but I checked 6, 7, 8,900 and ended up adding a 470K to my cart. I'll go back and check. 2M seemed to be the next highest after 1M so I threw that in the cart too.


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## Tom_C

I'm sure you know that for quick tests in a pinch you can just put 2 in series or parellel for either 2x or 1/2 value.

On that kit I posted, if it really uses a micro-processor then you may not be able to make many adjustments unless you can adjust a clock speed. It's hard to tell just by looking at it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's pretty easy to do these effects with a uP. Here's a MARS light simulator I did as a bench test with the Arduino a few years ago. Changing the timing or the ramp up and down is just whacking a few lines of code. In the end, I opted for the ngineering.com MARS simulator for my MARS lights, but it's not a big deal to build one.


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## Bwells

Tom_C said:


> I'm sure you know that for quick tests in a pinch you can just put 2 in series or parellel for either 2x or 1/2 value.
> 
> On that kit I posted, if it really uses a micro-processor then you may not be able to make many adjustments unless you can adjust a clock speed. It's hard to tell just by looking at it.


Good point Tom. I forgot about that. I do remember seeing some 220K's in my stash, I'll series a couple and that should tell me if I'm heading in the right direction. I do think it is a microprocessor as it said it comes preprogrammed but is on a retention base and can be reprogrammed.
John, their video lighthouse sure looks like mine including the house!


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## Tom_C

Bwells, whats the status on this?


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## Bwells

Well, good question. The circuit board I used I install the tant cap and the 7806 backwards. I tried to unsolder them but had no luck. I built the circuit on a breadboard and it works but it seems a little weak. I did adjust a resistor that controls the flash rate and it helped, went from a 1MΩ to a 750k. They are a couple more places to adjust but I don't understand them so I gave up and bought one with the parts included. I think it is the one we discussed earlier. It works about the same so now I am trying to figure an LED that has a better viewing angle. The standard ones are worthless with 35 degrees so I peeled a 5050 LED off a strip and it works a little better but still not to my liking. Supposedly they have a 135 degree viewing angle. Next step is to glue two back to back and see if that helps. The stuff never ends! You want a PCB? I have two still and I'm sure I can fit it in a small envelope. John, if your still listening, you have first dibs on one complete with the resistors taped and labeled. If not I have two that I don't know what to do with!!


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## Tom_C

If you're talking about the 'kit' you bought that you soldered the stuff in wrong, I'm more than willing to try to build it for you.... un-solder the stuff and see if I can make it work for you. No promises.

If you mean you're still trying to figure out the original curcuit that you had made, then I don't think I have the test space/equipment to figure it out and I don't want to sign up for that.

If you want to send me the kit and the parts then PM me we can exchange contact info.

tom


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## Bwells

No, two different things. The original PCB I had made by OshPark is the one that I screwed up. I built a breadboard of the same circuit. I got frustrated and bought one from Baketronics I think and solder the parts in. I still have two of the PCB's from Oshpark that you are more than welcome to as I have no use for them. I have one lighthouse and two circuits, one on a breadboard and the one I got from Baketronics. I'm buried in blinking lights. Anyone out there that needs a PCB for a lighthouse, let me know, they are free complete with wiring diagrams.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Send them to Tom, I don't have a use for a lighthouse right now.


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## Tom_C

OK, got it. I don't have need for your pcbs from oshpark. I was wondering how you made out with the kit you bought from baketronics, if it worked for you.

If I had a test set up I'd love to see if I could figure it out, but I don't have the facilities to do that right now.


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## Bwells

The one from Baketronics works well, about the same as the original circuit but with a brighter flash at the end. As I said, a 5mm LED is no good and I need to find one that is domeshaped if possible. It's all about the viewing angle now. I did try an incandescent Christmas bulb that burned bright on a AA and stuck it in and it brought the gizmo to it's knees. It didn't fry the bulb but I think the ma were to high for the circuit to handle. Anyway, that is where I'm at on "silly project #5".


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## Bwells

This is what it should look like:


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## Tom_C

I'll poke around when I have time and see if I can find another LED.

I've seen that pic before... Always amazed at the power of water and the abuse lighthouses can withstand and still remain standing.


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## Bwells

Thanks Tom. I searched digikey and thought I found one so I order them. Turns out they are 2mmX2mm, didn't notice the size. The viewing angle is the key and it appears that 120 degrees is pretty standard for the 5050 type, they just don't have the brightness.
Yeah, lighthouses have a tough life considering they are usually on the ocean and the salt air can eat them up.


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## Bwells

Sorry John, I missed your post when it changed pages. Okay folks, two PCB's available for free, one with resistors all labeled and one PCB only. I don't want to throw them in the trash so someone must have a lighthouse that just blinks. You can change that here for a more reasonable flash.


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