# Legacy vs Lionchief+ Future of these systems?



## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

Hello All, 

I am interested in a new command control system but have had a heck of a time understanding all of the options. 

TMCC seems to be the original system, then Legacy (P.S. to a noobie Legacy sounds like it would logically be the oldest system), and now we have lionchief/lionchief +. 

My question is as someone just starting out with a command control system does it make sense to start with Legacy? The future seems to be lionchief+ but to my knowledge there is no way to control accessories with that system. I would just hate to invest heavily into Legacy at a time when it's being phased out (if that is even the case).

I only have one Legacy/TMCC compatible loco at the moment (a newly purchased Santa fe ABBA TMCC set from Fabforrest) so most of my collection is either old conventional or new lionchief.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I think they both will be around for as long as Lionel is around. You should first ask yourself if you prefer full scale models or less than scale. Most all Legacy is full scale. Lionchief is mostly less than scale either in size or detail. For Legacy you will need a control system. For Lionchief your controller is part of the purchase price of the engine. Both will run on the same track at the same time. You can run all of the older TMCC equipment with a Legacy set.

Pete


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## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

Norton said:


> I think they both will be around for as long as Lionel is around. You should first ask yourself if you prefer full scale models or less than scale. Most all Legacy is full scale. Lionchief is mostly less than scale either in size or detail. For Legacy you will need a control system. For Lionchief your controller is part of the purchase price of the engine. Both will run on the same track at the same time. You can run all of the older TMCC equipment with a Legacy set.
> 
> Pete


Thank you! LOL helped the lightbulb go off in my head. Now that I revisited the catalogue it makes a lot more sense now. I had assumed they all came with the new lionchief controllers not realizing there was a whole section dedicated to legacy/bluetooth. 

Do you think the app will expand to the point it can control accessories too (if it doesn't already do so)? I think if that ends up being the case it might be worth focusing more on that capability.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I seriously doubt that LC/LC+ will ever support any quantity of accessories. It sure isn't in the radar of Lionel now, that question was asked at the Lionel booth at the fall York show while I was standing there.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

While I have not done it, Lionel's LCS site states the Layout Control System can be set up in a "no command base" mode for use without a Legacy system. This would allow an all LC/LC+ layout to have LCS operation of turnouts and accessories from an iPad.
This seemed to be a consideration for the OP.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That will work, but obviously my previous statement still applies.  I haven't tried the LCS without a command base, but it appears that it would control the accessories just fine.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Frankly I can't see Lionel NOT resolving this by evolving them to where one future system (LegacyChief?) that can operate with either or both at the same time. It makes no sense not too (but then Lionel does things I don't understand so . . . ). Just from a roduct manufacturing standpoint, it's non=optimal to have two so similar systems). 

It is clear after playing with the recent LC+ SD60s, which are the same basic loco as the Legacy SD60s, that the LC+ system was redesigned to be similar- at least closer. Both system use the same approach to vary and control speed, LC+ allows you to randomly activate crewtalk, vary volume, operate couplers and all, although it is rather clunky in places to do so (not that Legacy is that much better in places). LC+ has some advantages though (the universal remote with automatically syncrhonize and "program" a loco and seems easier to operate (to me anyway)).


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2018)

Go with the Legacy system, it is worth the investment if you want to operate in a command mode. I believe it is hands down the best system in O-Gauge.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I have both TMCC and Legacy systems which I like very much. I had a LionChief GP7 which developed a lot of problems so I got rid of it. I do like LC+ steam locos and I'm planning on buying an Alaska 4-6-2 Pacific soon.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Yes go with the Legacy system. Lots of fun and will get better with each upgrade.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Between my father and I, we have TMCC, Legacy and DCS command control systems. We have TMCC, Legacy, MTH Proto, Proto2 and Proto3 locomotives. TMCC works well, but doesn't have all the features or versatility of the other two systems as it's an older system. Personally I think Legacy and DCS each have their pros and cons. With that said, we favor DCS slightly over Legacy. This is do in large part to being able to operate our TMCC/Legacy locomotives thru the DCS. You can't operate a MTH Protosound locomotive thru Legacy.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Too bad you can't operate MTH through Legacy. I would have bought some MTH locos if they had done that. From the demos and videos for DCS I didn't find it appealing. With TMCC/Legacy it's just a remote and base. Three wires to connect and your ready to go.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Midnight Goat said:


> Hello All,
> 
> My question is as someone just starting out with a command control system does it make sense to start with Legacy?


I'm in the same boat as you. I've only been involved in O for a few months. My solution thus far has been Bluetooth equipped Lionel engines (virtually all new Legacy & LC+) and a MTH DCS Explorer for MTH/old stuff (~$125). I control everything with an old iPad I bought off Craigslist for $20. 

That said, I'm not really demanding when it comes to features: blow the horn, bell, smoke, couplers, maybe a little crew talk. If you're looking for more than that, you'll need to invest. 

Two things seem certain: 1) Bluetooth is coming on strong and
2) Legacy & DCS have been around long enough that you can feel safe investing in either. You can't lose! Have fun.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

_"Legacy & DCS have been around long enough that you can feel safe investing in either. You can't lose! Have fun."_

There is a point there I agree with, Beachhead2. That long time for both means that not only are all the bugs worked out, but there is a WIDE SELECTION of locos in either system, whereas with Lionchief Plus it is much, much more limited. 

That said, what I feel good about is that there appears to be a GREAT future for conventional. As far as I know, only Lionchief (with no plus) locos won't run in conventional, although I must say some TMCC locos aren't very user-friendly in that mode. 

It worked in 1952. It still works today. "A day without conventional is like a day without toy trains."


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

I thought that Lionel's strategy was to merge Legacy and Lionchief by having them both operate via the Bluetooth ap on all engines starting with the 2018 catalog.

Bill


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

The nice thing about LC+ is the price. They keep it simple so it's easy for children to operate. I have a friend who taught his grandsons to run LC+. Both are under the age of five. I don't think it was suppose to be more than what it is now. They may improve on the sounds, but if they were to combine Legacy features to LC+ I think it would drive the price up. As far as Bluetooth, WIFI or whatever they can keep it.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

ogaugenut said:


> I thought that Lionel's strategy was to merge Legacy and Lionchief by having them both operate via the Bluetooth ap on all engines starting with the 2018 catalog.
> 
> Bill


I think that is a start toward evolving to "Legacychief." I don't use bluetooth so I won't be following that path, but I'm okay with that.


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## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I'm still a bit jaded. For the cost of the legacy system I could theoretically just replace the only TMCC engine I have with the new legacy bluetooth version and come out even. Then I could continue to run my layout conventionally for my older locos while running the newer ones with the app/lionchief controller. 

The question is how to operate accessories. I don't currently have a handle on all of the accessories I actually own (they were passed down to me). Can all accessories be run conventionally? What are some examples of accessories that you operate with your legacy setup?


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Midnight Goat said:


> Can all accessories be run conventionally? What are some examples of accessories that you operate with your legacy setup?


Pretty much, most only work conventionally. Lionel has a TMCC controllable crane and there may be a few others, but I have seen very few.


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## PRRMIKE (Oct 20, 2016)

As a three railer our choices for command control systems is divided between the
proprietary systems from the two heavy hitters in our hobby. I know you can run both
DCS and Legacy on the same layout, quite frankly I do not want to be in the position of
having to buy a second system to run a particular manufacturers equipment. In my case
I have decided that I won't purchase one companies products, their loss. When DCC began
being introduced the NMRA stepped in and requested that it be developed as an open source project. A quick skim of the model railroad press will reveal the extensive choice and development this decision has fostered. Currently three rail control systems are now at the early development stages of new technology for train control as noted in Midnight Goat's original question. I wish the manufactures would would put aside their differences and collaborate and allow for third party development to enhance our hobby.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Midnight Goat said:


> Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I'm still a bit jaded. For the cost of the legacy system I could theoretically just replace the only TMCC engine I have with the new legacy bluetooth version and come out even. Then I could continue to run my layout conventionally for my older locos while running the newer ones with the app/lionchief controller.
> 
> The question is how to operate accessories. I don't currently have a handle on all of the accessories I actually own (they were passed down to me). Can all accessories be run conventionally? What are some examples of accessories that you operate with your legacy setup?


If I were starting from Square 1 in your position, I would just bite the bullet and go with Legacy. You simply need to view it as an investment and a building block for controlling your ENTIRE layout now. Try to get past the fact that it's the cost of a Lionchief locomotive. That might be true, but Lionchief isn't gonna control other things on your layout like operating accessories and StationSounds diners that add a ton of fun, excitement and realism to your layout.

I have both Legacy and DCS on my layout, and I did that for two reasons: I never wanted to be locked into ONLY buying Lionel locomotives, and I also thought DCS handled the control of accessories better than Legacy. Since I've actually USED both systems, I prefer Legacy overall. DCS has a better overall "system design" for everything. But I've found DCS to be a bit "buggy" and unstable at times -- especially regarding the control of locomotive lash-ups. I hate to say it, but I almost equate DCS to personal computer operating systems of 15-20 years ago where we'd need to hit the "reboot button" all too often to get things working again. Perhaps the DCS instability I've experienced is related to DCS + Legacy co-existing in the same layout. I don't know for certain. But I find Legacy to be the much more stable control system in my environment.

I view Lionchief to be Lionel's "limited-function", command-control system for beginning model train enthusiasts. Great for the starter-set crowd. But unfortunately, it doesn't really help you get to Legacy in terms of a cost-effective upgrade path. You'd need to buy a complete Legacy system anyway, if you ever want all the bells and whistles of complete command control down the road. And I've always been the type of person to make the best investment possible ONCE, and be as well-positioned for future growth as possible. Legacy puts you in that position better than anything else I can think of right now. Lionchief and Lionchief Plus don't IMHO.

David


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