# New to Model trains / N scale & totally overwhelmed...help!



## Butterball52113

Hi all! I'm totally new to model trains & totally overwhelmed. My toddler son started getting into Trains so I thought this would be another great hobby for us to enjoy together. I acquired an amazing 4 foot x 12 foot complete N scale layout. After transport and setting back up I decided to scrap the wiring the previous owner had because it looked like a "rays nest fire hazard". I wanted a fresh wiring start with a main bus wire, however, I can't get any power & now I feel in over my head!!! I have so many questions...not sure where to start. 

The track is made by Fleischmann - made in Germany...not sure if that's good or bad?? I've watched some YouTube videos on wiring but I'm still "cornfused"! I'm reconnecting the two sections of layout now with flex-track, think there are 3 track feeders, 2 of which are red/black or brown/yellow wires for pos/neg but the last track feeder has two black wires?? I'm also confused on wiring switches ...I have about 5-6 manual switches (no remote) they have 3 wires...some have red/black/green and some have black/dark brown/light brown or yellow. Do switches need to have a ground? It's just a DC system with a MRC Tech 7 Ampac 780 with dual cab control. Do I wire switches to accessory terminal on power unit or direct into cab terminal? Do switches need to be wired with remotes or can you just use them manually with the "finger switch"? Sorry for all the questions - feeling lost and hoping I don't have to hire an electrician. 

Thanks so much for any help you all can provide...God bless!


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## MRLdave

Not to nit-pick but you'll confuse us with the term switch.......in model RR terms a switch is used to control electricity, as in light switch, toggle switch, ect. The correct term for the piece of track that allows you to take an alternate route is a turnout.  To answer your question, you don't need to wire the turnout if you just want to use the finger switch.

I'm a little confused since you said you scrapped the original wiring but then talk about existing wires? But to make things simple, each section of track you want to wire needs a positive wire (usually red) and a ground (usually black) for the trains to run. And that needs to be consistent on the entire layout. For example if your layout has 2 loops, then both loops need the red wire on the inside rail.......or the outside rail.......it doesn't matter as long as you are consistent. So with your mixed colored wire, the color doesn't matter as long as all the wires connected to the + terminal on the power supply are connected to the same rail on the layout........but it really makes things MUCH easier if everything is color coded, so I'd recommend changing all the wire

This is just a simple guide, and there are some special cases (like reverse loops) that need special wiring. It would really help if you could include a picture or diagram for us to go from.


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## Butterball52113

Thanks for the reply - I'm sorry for the wrong terms - I'm a newbie. I do have pics and will try to post - thank you!


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## Butterball52113

Another pic


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## DonR

A model railroad layout underside typically becomes a rats nest
of wires. You would be wise to abandon them and start over.

The first thing you want to do is wire the track for operation.

What we don't know is whether your layout has been divided
into 'blocks' powered through some sort of DPDT switches so you
can use 2 or more Power Packs. I see a double track main in
parts, so I am going out on a limb and say that it was. That
is probably why your wiring did not get any power to the train.

First of all, did you clean the rail heads. This should be done with
alcohol and a fresh kitchen scrub pad. Inspect the locomotive
wheels to make sure they are clean and free of glop that often
collects on them. It can be removed with alcohol and a Qtip
tho after you get the layout running we'll describe a better way.

I would suggest that you start with ONE track. Disconnect
whatever cables that connect under the table to
the track above. You should see
wires coming under the table from a track above. Connect a pair
of wires to it direct from the TRACK terminals of a power pack. Put
a loco on it and see how far it will go. If it stops, there probably
is an insulated joint. Look closely to verify. Connect another
feed to this section of track. (note: you will probably find a pair
of wires coming from each 3 or more foot section of track to under the table. 
You can connect a buss to these). Work around the oval until you get
the loco running the whole way. Then do the same with the other
mains. We can get into the more complex wiring needed for 
running 2 trains at the same time through two power packs once
you get your layout powered.

Turnout wiring is very simple. Each one should have a Red, a Green
and a black wire. All of the black wires would be connected together
(as the common) and wired to one post of a Power Packs ACCESSORIES terminals. The Red moves the points
to the curve, the Green is straight. The Red wire would go the red button on a turnout control
panel. The Green to the green button. These two (or as many as you
have) would all be fed by a common wire that connects to the OTHER
terminal of your power pack ACCESSORIES.

So, avoid confusing yourself. Do away with the yellow, brown or other 
wires and stay with what we have described. Don't throw them away. You'll
possibly use it later for lighting etc.

As I said, this is only to get something working. There will be much more
to get it working right.

Don


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## tjcruiser

Make sure you don't have any unintended reverse loops, where one rail loops back around to the opposite rail. Doing so will short out your track (unless you have special circuitry).


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## Butterball52113

*Got power but have turn out issues/wiring problems*

Thank you for the suggestions - I was finally able to get power today and got a loco to go around one of the loops, however, I have issues with my turnouts…wiring I think. Do I need remotes for my turn outs or can you just manually use the thumb switch on the turn out? Also - my wiring is different than mentioned : my turn outs have light brown, dark brown, and black wires - not the usual green, red, and black. Can you tell me how these need wired up? Directly to the bus line? Accessory posts on power pack? Do I need remotes for the turn outs? One of the turn outs got "REALLY" hot so I unplugged everything and at that point called it a day….any ideas? I do have a voltage tester and just got a multimeter today. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!


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## Butterball52113

*power / turn out issues*















Here is a pic of the wiring from my turnouts:


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## Big Ed

Butterball52113 said:


> Thanks for the reply - I'm sorry for the wrong terms - I'm a newbie. I do have pics and will try to post - thank you!


I mean no offence, but I do think *that would be* nit picking especially to someone who knows nothing.

Butterball, You were correct in my book for saying switch, that is exactly what it does. The whole unit is called a turnout.
Without getting into it too much.
In railroad engineering, the switch is the moving portion of a turnout. 
The track crew installs a turnout. 
The operating crew throws the switch to change the train's route. 
You don't "throw the turnout" because the whole turnout does not move, only the switch portion of the turnout moves. 
So there for in order to have a turnout a switch is needed. Some will call these points instead of switch. If there is no switch there is no turnout.
Also there are different types of turnouts. The kind of switch used characterizes most kinds of turnouts.
But if you want to call it a turnout by all means do.
But if you want to call it a switch that is OK too.
Either way ALL SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.

So you, like I, can call it a switch and technically we are right.

And for someone to correct you on this I think is wrong.
Yes, That is what I would call nitpicking. 
Then again I guess some do get confused easily. :smokin:


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## Butterball52113

*Full Layout Pictures*







































Here are full layout pictures if this helps anyone with my switch/turn out question. 

Thanks, Big Ed!!!


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## Butterball52113

So if I just want to use the manual finger switch to operate the turn out - I don't wire up any of the wires?


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## Big Ed

Butterball52113 said:


> Here are full layout pictures if this helps anyone with my switch/turn out question.
> 
> Thanks, Big Ed!!!


Your smart, you have all bases covered now.

I have a small N but I did not wire it.

Since you have all the wires off have you thought about setting it up for DCC control?
I don't have it but they say the wiring is easier and it changes the way you run the trains.


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## Big Ed

Butterball52113 said:


> So if I just want to use the manual finger switch to operate the turn out - I don't wire up any of the wires?


Yes, just flip the little switch knob with your fingers.


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## DonR

Butterball52113 said:


> Thank you for the suggestions - I was finally able to get power today and got a loco to go around one of the loops, however, I have issues with my turnouts…wiring I think. Do I need remotes for my turn outs or can you just manually use the thumb switch on the turn out? Also - my wiring is different than mentioned : my turn outs have light brown, dark brown, and black wires - not the usual green, red, and black. Can you tell me how these need wired up? Directly to the bus line? Accessory posts on power pack? Do I need remotes for the turn outs? One of the turn outs got "REALLY" hot so I unplugged everything and at that point called it a day….any ideas? I do have a voltage tester and just got a multimeter today. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!


Butterball

From what you post it seems you may have some 'manual' and some
'remote' turnouts. Any manual would be operated using the 'switch'
on the turnout. Any with 3 wires would need buttons to control.
They are not connected to the track circuits.

Many modellers use whatever color wire they have on hand, so it's
not that strange to have the tan, brown and black. The pic of the
turnout did not show any terminals or wire. It looks more like a
manual turnout. The powered, (remote) ones have 3 screw terminals.
The middle one is 'COMMON' and is usually connected by a black wire.
IF this is true for you, then all of the turnout black wires should be
connected together and to ONE TERMINAL POST of the power
pack's ACCESSORIES. IF NOT true which color is to the middle turnout
terminal? That color wires should be the same on all and connected
together then to one of the accessories terminal posts.

Make sure that the 'other' 2 wires are not connected to anything
except as below.

You will have to test by touching a wire connected to the other TERMINAL
POST of the Power pack ACCESSORIES to each of the other 2 screws.
One should throw the points straight, the other screw would be
diverting. Then you can see that tan is (your result) and Brown is
(your result). 

Any turnout with the 3 wires MUST be controlled through momentary
buttons. If you did not get these with the layout you can get them
cheaply at Radio Shack. Normally Open, Momentary push buttons. Two
for each powered turnout, one straight, one diverting. One side of each
button is connected to a buss wire that is connected to the 'OTHER'
terminal post on the power pack accessories section.

If you had continuous power to a turnout coil you may have damaged
it. (the one that got hot) 
You should disconnect whatever wires connected to it before turning
on the power then refer to
my 2nd and 3rd paragraphs above. First try to manualyl move the
points, if they are not 'frozen' then electrically test as above. 

Let us know what you find.

Don


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## Big Ed

If you want to make your pictures show as pictures (much easier for all to look at) go back and click the edit, 
then click advanced edit, 
then look up top and click the paper clip, 
then click insert all.

Your pictures will then be in the post as a picture instead of a link.
Every time you put pictures in, after they upload just go back to the paper clip and click it.
It will say insert all, or if you only have one picture uploaded just click what you see a second time. 
(More then one picture you will see the insert all, if you have only one picture it won't say insert all) Just click whatever shows after you click the paper clip and your pictures we be shown here.

If your thread gets long with a lot of pictures it takes longer to go back and forth clicking to see them.

You only have 24 hrs (I think it is) to edit.
Go back and try it. If you want.


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## Big Ed

Don...you can't just leave the wires off and switch one manually?
On a remote switch, It doesn't have the knob to switch it?

My N layout is off the horses and against the wall, I thought you could do that?


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## Butterball52113

*Operating manual switch - don't wire?*

I do not have any remotes for my switches/turn outs. So if I'm reading this correctly if I don't use remotes, I don't have to wire up any of the 3 wires coming from the switches/turn outs and can just operate manually with the thumb switch?


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## Big Ed

I thought you could?
Waiting on Don for an answer.

You have the little knob part to throw it, I don't see why not, if you left the wires off why you couldn't? 

I may be wrong. :dunno:

But why not hook them up??


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## Butterball52113

Well- I don't have any remotes to hook them up. I feel like I keep running to the store spending more $ for parts and I still don't have this track working. I'd like to set up as basic as possible (manual switches are fine for me now) & once I see everything operational & become more comfortable with wiring I may wire up switches.


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## Magic

Pretty nice layout there. :smilie_daumenpos:

You can use the manual switch with those turnouts with no problem. 

These look like Atlas turnouts. 
Here is an Atlas switch to control that type of turnout. The two black ones on top.
Might be able to find them cheap on EBay. 








Pretty easy to hook up and use. The switch must be momentary or else you'll burn out the the turnout motor. You'll need one for each turnout all with separate two (the red and green) wires. The black center wire can be hooked into a buss. 
The white wires on the end are power from the transformer. 
The bottom switches are for a different type turnout motor. 

And yes I do have to re-due this mess.  

Magic


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## Cycleops

Try to draw out schematic plan of the layout. It should then be possible to indentify where the feeds go. The only thing to remember is that you cannot have a feed after a turnout unless it is separated by a gap (usually using insulated joiners) in both rails, but these would already be there. You could also identify the feeds from the existing wiring that exits through the bottom of the baseboard, unless you have cut them right back when removing the wiring. The track plan looks fairly simple so there shouldn't be too many feeds.


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## Butterball52113

Thank you. I am pretty sure that the track has 3 sets of feeders. The previous owner said their was a booster as well (I'm assuming that was just another set of feeders?). I am going to cut the lines I have for the switches hooked up to the bus line since that is not correct - hopefully I have not damaged my turnouts/switches. I will try to draw up a picture of the layout - I am new here and have never done that so be nice to this rookie .


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## Butterball52113

*Is this an unintended reverse loop?*

Is this an unintended reverse loop?


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## Butterball52113

*Power Supply Picture*







I just wanted to include a picture of my power supply - if this would assist anyone. I really appreciate everyone's help. God Bless you all.


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## Big Ed

Butterball52113 said:


> I will try to draw up a picture of the layout - I am new here and have never done that so be nice to this rookie .


One thing you could do to keep someone from complaining is to re-size your pictures some before you upload them.

If it is too large, everyone has to scroll back and forth to read the posts, a lot don't like doing that.
Just four ( I think) of your pictures in this thread is a bit too large and is forcing the scrolling in this thread. 
When the picture is too large it expands the post.

I use paint. Just put the picture there and re-size it. The 75 x 75 option seems to be good for me.
Some use other programs to re-size the picture.

Though maybe you could do it another way as some of your pictures are good.

*Just a suggestion, no big deal for me I just click the control and minus sign to read it so I don't have to scroll.*
But a lot don't know this or don't like to reduce the posts.

The small pictures in here are good, though they might be a hair too small.
You have to find that perfect size then stick with it.

Those controllers are not that expensive, look on e bay for lots of them and save yourself some money.


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## Big Ed

I think the picture of your power supply is OK, but I re-sized it real quick to 75x75.
See the difference?

Everyone has a paint program? If you don't know how to re-size there I will give you the steps. If you want?


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## Big Ed

This is a 50 x 50 picture,


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## Big Ed

This is 25 x 25 re-size,











Easy once you know how.

This one is too small.


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## Butterball52113

*sorry about pictures!*

I'm really sorry about the pictures being too big, guys….I'm not techy either. I will try my best to get these fixed/smaller in the future. I really appreciate all of your help thus far. Have a nice day!


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## Big Ed

Butterball52113 said:


> I'm really sorry about the pictures being too big, guys….I'm not techy either. I will try my best to get these fixed/smaller in the future. I really appreciate all of your help thus far. Have a nice day!


No need to apologize, I had a problem with mine as I did something in the camera settings and they were all coming out too large. They were doing the same thing.

Then someone suggested all I have to do is re-size them. 

I finally figured out what I did with the camera so I don't have to re-size them. But the old ones I saved before I figured it out are too large in my file. So I have to re-size some before I post.

Though it is easy to just click the control and minus sign at the same time to read some don't like doing this.

No need to apologize.:smokin:

Teacher Ed is down teaching for today.
Unless you need it, don't be afraid to ask.


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## Cycleops

The booster would likely apply to add on for the controller which would boost track power. Your layout doesn't look like it has a reverse loop and your pic is unlikely to be the start of one. Just so you can identify one here's a illustration.


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## DonR

big ed said:


> I thought you could?
> Waiting on Don for an answer.
> 
> You have the little knob part to throw it, I don't see why not, if you left the wires off why you couldn't?
> 
> I may be wrong. :dunno:
> 
> But why not hook them up??



Yep Ed,

The turnouts in the pics seem to have the little manual 'switch'.
So if that is present on all of the turnouts you can use
that instead of wiring them.

However, as time goes on, you'll want the convenience of
remote controlled turnouts. As I mentioned, you can
get very economical normally open push buttons for that
purpose at Radio Shack.

In that close up of the crossover am I seeing rust? You might
want to check that and see that the rail heads are clear of
it. It will hinder electrical conductivity.

The pic of the Power pack shows it to be a Dual Control DC
system. I doubt there would be a need for a booster on
an N scale layout of that size. There will be the need of
double pole double throw switches to control the power
feeds to the tracks from the Dual Power Pack. When you
get all of your track powered, we'll show you how to
do this. In the meantime I would use only one side of
the power pack, leaving the wires off of the other side
temporarily to avoid confusion and possible short
circuits.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Ok - I have cut all turnout/switch wires since they should not have been hooked up to my bus line. I ran a loco around a good portion of the track and it performed much better - I assume because the switches/turnouts were no longer drawing power from the line? I tried to manually flip the turnouts/switches with the thumb switch and they moved, however, for some reason in a few if not all, I am not getting power to those areas? possibly bad connections? Or could that part of the track be bad??


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## Butterball52113

Thanks - I have not been using both sides of the power pack for the layout track- just one. I did wire up the other side of the power pack to a little piece of track to test locomotives - would that be ok or should I not do that?


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## Butterball52113

Guys - I begin to thank you enough for your help so far…You are true blessings. I know in time once I feel more comfortable with wiring I will install the remotes to the switches - I want to really make this first class for my son! Thank you!


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## Butterball52113

I've been cleaning the rails and I was indeed able to get a loco around the tracks in one of the complete circles! I think the track is just really gunked up. I still am not able to get power to some of the tracks so I will check bad connections, etc.


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## traction fan

The three wires from your "turnout OR switch (either term is OK). are, as Don R. pointed out, a black common wire, another (yellow? from your photo) for one route and a third wire (blue) for the other route. These operate a device inside that large lump on the side of the Fleishmann switch (I'm using this word just to annoy the nitpickers). The device is a twin-coil switch machine. The two coils inside pull a tiny iron bar into one coil to set the points to the curved route and the other coil for the straight route. These coils are VERY EASY TO BURN OUT! The buttons to operate them should be pressed for only a second. Holding the button down any longer will release some unwanted smoke and ruin the switch machine. When you get further along, there is a device called a capacitive discharge system which will protect against these burnouts; but that's a bit too complicated for now. There is also a different (and better) system of throwing switches using slow speed motors; but that too can wait. You have nothing to be sorry about using the term switch. After all the "big boys" like Burlington Northern Santa Fe, Norfolk Southern, Etc. (real, full size, railroads) have been known to call them switches too! Don't let any self-appointed, Cliff Claven style, "expert" spoil your fun. Enjoy your railroad your way. Welcome to the hobby!


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## DonR

Butterball52113 said:


> Thanks - I have not been using both sides of the power pack for the layout track- just one. I did wire up the other side of the power pack to a little piece of track to test locomotives - would that be ok or should I not do that?


Yes, this is a very good use for the 'other' side of the power pack. When you
get the layout tracks all powered and the locos running everywhere we
can discuss how to use this to control an isolated section of the layout so you
can run one train with the first controller and another with this one.

Have you traced the wiring to the track sections where you are
not getting power? Maybe you can start where the wires connect
to the 'dead' track and work towards the power packs. 

Don


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## Butterball52113

Friends - thank you so much for your thoughts & suggestions. I am not going to be able to work on this for a few days - I'll report back soon.


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## DonR

Put the key under the door mat. Some of us will be by to
see what we can find.

don


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## Butterball52113

Back to "working on the railroad"...briefly today. Unfortunately, parts of the track that were working before, are now not?? How often does track need cleaned...it's only been like a week. I've noticed that depending on how I've thrown a switch - kills power on certain lines of track? Does that mean the switch is bad? Bad connection to part of track that has no power or bad track? Does track even go bad? One odd thing I observed the day I got a loco to run one entire loop on the track....the loco got hung up in a spot that I hadn't cleaned yet...I tested track to see if it had power at that point and the loco started back up and ran the full circle. Bad track connection or just coincidence? I got my son a few new Atlas locos & boy they run like a dream...on the track that works!  anyways, guys I appreciate your help. I sure am having fun and learning...& I just got into this for my son!


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## Cycleops

Track does need cleaning often. Invest in a multi meter they are only about $10 and then you can see what parts of the track are live when you throw a switch. If your points are 'dead' frog power will be cut to the route not selected.


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## Butterball52113

Thank you for the reply! I did invest in a multimeter - just need to watch a YouTube video on how to use it first. I can check batteries but that's about it. I'm dying to find out where bad connections are, dead track, and to see if I get same voltage around all areas of track to pinpoint problems. It's been easier diagnosing issues using brand new loco too - all the trains that came with the layout were ancient, filthy, and may need repair. I'm slowly cleaning wheels with alcohol pads. I'm nervous about oiling - afraid to damage them without really knowing what I'm doing. Do you all recommend investing in a track cleaning car? 

Sorry for delays, I have Health issues so I rarely feel good enough to work on this and when I do work on it, I'm down a few days because of it. 

Thanks for all of your help!


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## DonR

Once you get the entire layout cleared of accumulated
gunk a track cleaning car will keep it clear if you run
it regularly.

Hobby shops have plastic friendly lubes both paste and
liquid. Just be judicious about how much you apply so
you don't get it on the wheels.

Sounds like the rail joiners may be giving you some
conductivity problems. With your multimeter you
can find those points. You may want to get a small
soldering iron to solve that problem. Practice soldering
on a couple sections of scrap track.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Thank you. Yeah, i have my grandfathers old soldering iron - need to test/practice with it. I hope it's just as simple as bad rail joiners. Also on cleaning of track - I have to problem cleaning frequently - just wasn't aware how frequently it needed to be done. I've been lightly scrubbing sections with steel wool and then going over it with alcohol pads....getting better performance. I'm just worried the switches are bad and are what's killing power to sections of the track. Or if the switch was bad, would the switch just not move electronically when using manual thumb switch? 

I'm going to post pics asking if these are things I need to get - let me know your thoughts:

Thank you for all the help!


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## Butterball52113

*Remote for switch?*

Is this what I need to buy to remotely control each switch on my layout? What everyone has suggested I buy and wire into my layout?


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## Butterball52113

*Is this a wise investment? Track cleaning car*

Is this a wise investment? Track cleaning car


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## Butterball52113

I also need to switch couplers on quite a few locomotives. The rolling stock that came with my sons set are all rapido...which I think are fine, however, all except one loco have the more realistic micro train coupler. I personally don't care about realism that much as long as it works. 

Do you know where to find rapido couplers for atlas locos? Seems like everywhere is out of stock. Or maybe I can make a conversion truck with one rapido and one micro train coupler.


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## DonR

Yes, those are the twin coil motors for Atlas switches. You'll need 'normally
open' push buttons to operate them. Rush out to the nearest Radio Shack
before it closes and get 40% off on red,green and black wire, get several rolls of each, 
preferably stranded but solid if that's out. Also get 2 normally open push buttons
for each turnout with a motor. It's an easy hook up, just the bother of crawling
around under the table. They will be powered by the ACCESSORIES terminals
on your power pack.

I'll let those who use commercial track cleaning cars comment on that.
I made my own.

I installed Kadee couplers on all of my locos and cars so again no
knowledge of Rapido gear.

Don


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## Butterball52113

*Motors for my switches/turn outs*

If my track is Fleischmann - is it ok to use the Atlas brand motors to operate them? Is that what you all recommend or something else? 

Is there a particular brand of "normally open - push buttons" to buy to use with the motors? Do I just get that at radio shack or hobby store/eBay? 

I took my son railfanning today and had such a great time!

Thanks all!


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## traction fan

Cleaning with steel wool can lead to problems. Sooner or later some of the steel wool fibers will come off and end up being pulled into the motors of your locomotives; as the motors contain magnets. This can damage the motors . Since, besides being magnetic, steel wool is also electrically conductive; the wayward bits of steel wool can cause short circuits in your track, particularly in turnouts where rails of opposite electrical polarity are close together. From your own posts, I gather the last thing you need are more electrical problems with your track!

Here are a few of the many better choices for track cleaning.

1) Instead of steel wool use "plastic wool", better known as 3M Scotchbrite scrubbing pads. They are non-magnetic,non-conductive, and therefore can't cause any of these problems. 
2) Use fine grit sandpaper. (sand lightly!) Anything from 220 to 400 grit would work. Wal Mart carries it in their automotive Dept.
3) A "Bright Boy" track cleaning block. This item looks like an artist's/office size pencil
eraser, but contains special grit inside. Train stores or Wlm. K. Walthers on line sell them. They are expensive but designed specifically for cleaning model railroad track, and do the job quite well. One block cleaned regularly should last for years. 
4) LPS-1. This is a grease less silicone lubricant, which is electrically conductive.
( that's LPS-1 only. The same company markets LPS-2 and LPS-3 but these last two do not conduct electricity.)
It comes in a spray can like WD-40. However do not substitute WD-40 as it does not work the same, contains grease (kerosene) and will gum up your track. Grainger, an industrial supplier of nearly everything, is a good source. LPS-1 sprayed on a clean rag, and wiped on the rails, does wonders for cleaning dirt off, leaving a thin protective coat behind, and seriously improving the way your trains get power from the rails. It can also do a great job of cleaning the Bright Boy block when it gets covered in track goop.
You can also combine some of these. Sandpaper can be lightly white glued onto the bottom of that track cleaning boxcar's pad; and replaced as needed. Or you could spray a little LPS-1 on this pad. 

As for soldering rail joints, be careful. The soldering iron your grandfather used may be too powerful, depending on what he soldered with it. For model work use a 30 watt or less iron. Even a small iron can melt the ties of your track enough to throw it out of gauge. This may cause derailments. A soldering technique called heat sinking will prevent this. A simple method of heat sinking is to put a paper towel, soaked in cold water, on the track at either side of the joint to be soldered. Metal clips are also used as heat sinks. Alligator clips work well, as do those hair roller clips women use.
Finally, I don't recommend soldering ALL the rail joints. If your layout room has a hefty temperature range; the rails need to expand and contract with the temp. Many modelers solder a small wire to each rail and connect all the north rail wires together and all the south rails together. Then the rail joiners are not used to conduct power, only to physically join the rails. This gives excellent, smooth running.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Butterball52113

*Normally open push buttons for switch motors*

Would these work or is there something specific I need to get for model railroading? 

I'm not really sure what I'm looking for.


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## Butterball52113

Thank you so much for this great info traction fan...I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to send me all of that! I sure hope I haven't damaged anything with the steel wool! I'll stop using that :-(


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## Butterball52113

The train layout is in our spare room...my wife and I didn't want it in the garage or our son having to go to the garage to play. It was 30 below a few days here last winter!


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## Butterball52113

*Custom paint scheme*

Is there someone who could do this custom paint scheme if I provided loco? We see these near our home...be cool to get one for my son.


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## Magic

Butterball52113 said:


> Is this what I need to buy to remotely control each switch on my layout? What everyone has suggested I buy and wire into my layout?
> View attachment 40657


I would defiantly NOT use those Atlas under the table switch machines. 
I tried a couple of them and they just don't work very good, they are just too flimsy. 
You already have switch machines on the turnouts so just wire up those. 

Magic


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## Butterball52113

I thought I needed switch controllers in order to wire up what I have? I didn't think I could just wire up the switches/turnouts I have now without controllers and the buttons? 

I am confused :laugh:


----------



## Cycleops

I have only ever used Peco turnout switches to control point motors: http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3309&CAT_ID=3337&P_ID=17669
They provide a momentary shot of power to switch the point right or left. I guess the 'always open' Radio Shack switch operates in a different way, pushing it gives the shot to change the turnout, I'm only assuming. Perhaps Don could outline how they work.
These switches are powered from the accessory output on your controller.


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## Fire21

Traction fan, thank you for all the tips on track cleaning. I was going to ask how to clean the Bright Boy cleaning block, and then you explained it. I'd never heard of LPS-1 lube...will have to get some. Thanks again! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR

Butterball52113 said:


> Would these work or is there something specific I need to get for model railroading?
> 
> I'm not really sure what I'm looking for.
> 
> View attachment 40674


Yes. these are the exact same push buttons that I use in
my turnout panels. They would work for the existing Atlas
motors or the new ones you bought. You would use 2 for
each turnout, one for straight, the other for diverting track.

Are there any wires connected to the existing turnouts?

Don


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## DonR

Cycleops said:


> I have only ever used Peco turnout switches to control point motors: http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=3309&CAT_ID=3337&P_ID=17669
> 
> 
> They provide a momentary shot of power to switch the point right or left. I guess the 'always open' Radio Shack switch operates in a different way, pushing it gives the shot to change the turnout, I'm only assuming. Perhaps Don could outline how they work.
> These switches are powered from the accessory output on your controller.


The push buttons pictured are simple on/off switches. A spring
returns the contact to off after a momentary push. A lead from the
power supply connects to one tab on the push button. A lead from
the other tab goes to either the straight or diverting terminal on the
turnout. All middle terminals on the turnouts are connected together
to be a common that is connected to the other side of the power source.

Don


----------



## Magic

Butterball52113 said:


> I thought I needed switch controllers in order to wire up what I have? I didn't think I could just wire up the switches/turnouts I have now without controllers and the buttons?
> 
> I am confused :laugh:


No matter what kind of switch machine you use you'll need a controller for each turnout.
If you make a control panel the momentary push button type DonR is talking about are very good.

I used the Atlas type controller because I have the controller located on the fascia near the turnout. The ones I pictured in my earlier post. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=308053&postcount=20


Magic


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## traction fan

*Push buttons/switch machines*

First I want to agree with Don R's preceding post. Just about any push button of the "normally open" type, will work with any twin coil switch machine. The red and silver buttons, shown in your picture, will operate either the Atlas brand, under the table ones, or the units built into your turnouts. 
A quick "qualifier" for my opinion on electrical questions. Before retirement I spent 40 years repairing electrical equipment, and have been model railroading that long also. From his intelligent posts, Don R also seems to be well up on electric matters related to our hobby.
I was wondering why you bought duplicate twin coil machines when your turnouts already had them built in? Then, on another post, I read that you thought some special model controller might be needed. Not so. Some manufactures make their controllers resemble something else, and of course, want you to buy their product; but electrically the all do the same thing as a pair of push buttons.
Seriously consider building a control panel for your railroad. A control panel is usually a Masonite board with a miniature diagram of the layout's track, with buttons mounted in it at the turnout locations. This makes it easy to see what turnout you are switching, and in which direction. Highly recommended.
If you have any questions you know where we are. I would also recommend the Kalmbach publishers book, "Beginner's guide to N-scale model railroading", which covers most of the maters you have asked about in a clear and easy manner.

Good Luck! Have fun!


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## Butterball52113

*Thank you, Traction Fan!*

Thanks, Traction Fan for all of your input! 

Wow - you were right about the steel wool. I took one of my old test track locos apart last night and saw all of the steel wool collected on the magnet…I had no idea! I must have misread someone's suggestion about using that. 

To answer your question - I did not buy those Atlas turnout machines or anything in those images - I was just asking if that was what I needed to buy. I truly am clueless here and learning as much as I can on the fly through posts on the internet and my own research - I will certainly get the book you suggested - sounds like a great resource for me and my son when he's at the age to pass of to him. If all I need to get is "momentary on" pushbuttons to wire up to operate my switches that would be great….I will buy some asap and follow the directions given…thanks!


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## Butterball52113

Just bought the Kalmbach publishers book, "Beginner's guide to N-scale model railroading" - can't wait to get it! I feel so overwhelmed :-(


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## Fire21

Butterball52113 said:


> Just bought the Kalmbach publishers book, "Beginner's guide to N-scale model railroading" - can't wait to get it! I feel so overwhelmed :-(


I kind of equate it to marriage: I didn't know squat at the beginning, and was totally overwhelmed. Now 45 years later, I'm still overwhelmed and am trying daily to figure it out!


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## Butterball52113

Ha! That's funny! I hope I get this figured out soon for my son to enjoy. 

Guys - don't kill me for asking again...I first need to test to even see if my switches are working. If so and I want to wire up remotes this is all I need (or any momentary on push button) 2 per switch:


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## Magic

That controller will work. You connect the two wires from the power supply to the two terminals on either end, the two on the other end would be for a second controller.

The three terminals on top go to the turnout switch machine. 
The center one is a common connection. The ones on the ends are to move the points either straight or turn. Use three different colored wires. Keep them all the same. Example red and green for the two outside wires and black for the center. You can use other colors but keep them all the same.

To operate the turnout just slide the blue thumb switch and than momentarily push it in, that moves the turnout points (the moveable little tracks in the turnout.)

I have some similar controller I'd be happy to send you to try out. They are like the ones I pictured in my earlier post. 
Just PM me your address and I pop then in the mail Tuesday. 

I'm not familiar with those N scale turnouts but there must be a way to take the top cover off and get access to the three wires and you can see what colors go where. 

Magic


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## Butterball52113

I will see if I can pop the cover off my turnouts today, take pictures and post online. I am also going to attempt to draw a diagram of my layout and take pictures of my trouble spots. I will report back ASAP. Thank you!


----------



## DonR

Usually Atlas side mounted turnout motors have the 3 terminals
for wires exposed. As I recall, this is an existing
layout so if there are no wires going to these turnouts
either on the surface of the layout or thru a hole under the turnout
motor, they may be manual only. If so, the manual section can be removed and
replaced by the twin coil 'motor' we have been discussing. 

Here is what one of my turnout control panels look like. Note
the simulated track layout with buttons in the tracks. 









Don


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## Butterball52113

*Updates*

I had some time to work on a rough drawing of my layout to notate feeders, electronic controlled & manual switches. Don't laugh! Again - keep in mind I've never done this before so not sure if this is done correctly, missing needed info, or using incorrect terms. Give me a shout if something needed. You don't need me to show each piece of track/rail joiner do you? I certainly will if so...


----------



## Butterball52113

*Switches*

Ok, now I understand between the manual vs electronically controlled switches. Based on my drawing of the layout, I have 8 switches/turn outs. 6 are electronically controlled with switch machines that I now know I'll need to buy remotes or push buttons for. 2 are manually controlled with the plastic lever managing the portions of the track that back up to the stops. If I wanted, I could install electronically controlled switch machines for these manual ones as well, right? And then get remotes or push bottoms to control them? 

Here is a pic of one of my electronically controlled switch machines close up - hoping to show wiring as I was unable to get any covers off...I'm afraid to damage them.


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## Butterball52113

This is the picture I meant to post for wiring:


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## Butterball52113

*Switch*

This is the manual switch/turnout control exposed when i pushed the electronic switch machine out of the way a little....???


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## Butterball52113

*Anyone know what this is or used to be?*


----------



## traction fan

That strange item in your last photo looks like an uncoupling "ramp for rapido brand couplers. To verify, pull the black lever with the big round "weight" on the top, sideways. If my guess is correct; the ramp between the rails should rise up. This pushes up on the pins on the bottom of two rapidos. The lifting action uncouples them. Try it with a pair of rapido equipped cars.
Rapido couplers came as standard equipment on most N-scale "rolling stock" (cars & locomotives) in the early days of N-scale. They were butt ugly, grossly oversize, and could only be uncoupled directly over one of these ramps. Therefore; the modeler needed multiple ugly ramps to do any switching of cars. One on the main line, near every turnout; and another on every siding, yard track, or anywhere else you might want to leave a car. If a long siding served three industries, you needed three ramps!
These restrictions did not please modelers,to put it mildly! The only plus side was that the couplers were universal, regardless of type or brand of car; and they stayed coupled.
The Microtrains coupler pretty much took over because it looked like the real thing, and allowed delayed uncoupling! (Yaa! sort of) Delayed uncoupling allowed a loco to detach a car, and then push it, still uncoupled, to any spot on the track! (at least in theory.) This feature drastically reduced the number of ramps needed and greatly increased flexibility of operation. It does work, but requires attention to coupler height and adjustment, plus a smooth running loco. with modern N-scale models, this isn't a big problem. Still, many modelers do the uncoupling by hand using tools developed for the purpose.
I'm not sure if it was your post, but someone asked where they could get rapido couplers for a loco. My answer would be; Don't. Instead get Micro trains couplers for every car and loco you have. The easy way is to equip each car with Micro trains "trucks" (the wheel assemblies under the car). These come with couplers already attached.


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## DonR

Those are not standard Atlas turnouts, I don't recognize them, surely
some of our members would. But from your pics it would seem
that you could remove that manual devise as you have in your hand
and install a motor of the same make. I can only assume the the tan lever
that comes from the turnout body is moved by the 'switch' on the
device in line with the track. If you used the Atlas motors you
previously pictured you would have to drill a hole in the tan lever
so the Atlas motor probe would fit it. The Atlas would be mounted
perpendicular to turnout under the table where normally it is in line with the turnout.

It probably would be better to buy the same make motor as the
turnouts then no modification would be needed.

Anybody know who made these turnouts?

Don


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## traction fan

DonR I think Butterball said they were made by Fleishmann in Germany.


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## Butterball52113

Yes, I'm assuming the switches/turnouts are Fleischmann since it looks like 98% of the layout is done with their track. I don't have to get Fleischmann remotes to operate those, do I? I can buy any remote like the atlas suggested or the momentary buttons?


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## Butterball52113

*Fleischmann switch/turn outs*

Just did a quick search on eBay and indeed all of my track and switches/turnouts are Fleischmann. 

Here's a Fleischmann switch I found on eBay-it's identical to mine:


----------



## Butterball52113

*Fleischmann switch/turnout remotes*

Found these on eBay - should I buy one and give it a try or is their a better/cheaper/local (radio shack) way to achieve what I need to wire up remotes for my switches?


----------



## DonR

They would do exactly the same thing as 2 cheap push buttons,
but a more cost. Plus, if you want to have a typical track
diagram panel, such as I posted, they would not fit in. I have
always used the push buttons, never the devices like this or
those from Atlas.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Thanks, don! I'm going to go the push button route. I'll buy some to try out and report back. I'll probably need wiring assistance :-(. I need two buttons per switch, correct? Does it matter what amps the buttons are rated for? Just worried I'll get the wrong thing.


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## Cycleops

Those switches look like they've been salvaged from the Titanic.


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## DonR

The push buttons can be 1 amp or less. If you still have an open 
Radio Shack they have the exact buttons. I think one of
the other guys posted pics of them. Look again at the pic
of my control panel and you'll see the black and red capped button.
If they have them you might want to get say black for straight and
red for diverting. You will need 2 for each turnout to be
operated remote control. The buttons are small less than 1/2" diameter. 

It'll be easy to wire, just let us know what you end up with and
we'll go from there.

Don


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## Butterball52113

*RadioShack push buttons*

Thanks don - I'll call my local radio shack to make sure they have them and maybe pick up tomorrow. I'll let you all know ASAP! Thanks again


----------



## Butterball52113

*Radio Shack Push Buttons*

I was on Radio Shack Website and didn't see the 1 amp or less normally open push buttons. I found some on a web retailer called AllElectronics.com

Here is the link of the black one: 

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/mpb-1b/spst-momentary-n.o.-black-pushbutton/1.html

I was going to get 10 of each color since I need 2 for each switch (6 electronic / 2 manual which I could convert but not necessary since they are easily accessible from one side of layout table). 

Should I get some rolls of wire as well or just use the leftover "rats nest" wire I have left over from other stuff? Wasn't sure if it needed to be all one gauge of wire. I want to do it the right way the first time for my son and make it nice so if new wire is recommended please let me know and let me know if a particular gauge is needed. I know DonR suggested I get red,green and black wire, get several rolls of each, preferably stranded but solid if that's out

Where do I find a piece of masonite board to make my control panel? Is that something I can pick up at Lowes/Home Depot or do I have to go to a special store? 

Thanks everyone - feeling better about this each day with all of your help!


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## Butterball52113

Salvaged from the Titanic….ha! So true!


----------



## DonR

The button in your link is exactly the same that I use
and is sold by Radio Shack in both red and black caps.

There is no reason not to use the existing wire but be sure
to use the same color wires for the same purpose, for example,
the red wire goes to turnout divert, the black to common
and the green to straight. But use the colors you have.
The main thing is to maintain consistency so that you know
what wire does what in the event there is a problem in
the future. If the existing wires are a mish mash of colors
and not organized that you would be doing yourself and your
son a favor by replacing it with the red, black green wires.

You should be able to buy 1/4" masonite or whatever
equivalent may be available at Home Deport or Lowes.
When you go there, you might check their electrical dept.
and see if they have small enough wires in stock. You
don't want anything larger than 20 or 22 gauge. I prefer
stranded but solid would do.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Thanks, Don! You are the man!!!! I truly appreciate you. 

I'm getting new wire too!


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## traction fan

Long ago, in my youth, I worked at a Radio Shack store, and sold the red and black buttons.
At that time, (Jurassic era) the black ones were the normally-closed type, which you should NOT use. They pass current constantly until pushed down. If you wire such a button
to one of your switch machines It may well smoke the machine's coil before you can turn it off! Again, "back in the day" the red buttons were normally-open type that you should use.
I don't know if this "color code" for buttons still exists today even at Radio Shack, let alone anywhere else; just beware of the normally-closed type regardless of color.
Regarding your question about The button's current rating; if you think you might ever use a capacitive discharge system (to prevent accidental burning of coils) I would use a higher amp button. The red low current ones are fine for what your doing now.
By the way, I have used the all electronics source mentioned and they are very good.


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## Butterball52113

*2 out of 3 track feeders may be bad!?!*

Guys - I had some time to test track this morning and I think I may have two sets of tack feeders bad - not getting any juice from my bus line??? Not sure why - not sure if I have bad suitcase clip connection to bus line or if connections to track bad???


----------



## Butterball52113

I may be interested in capacitative discharge system if it's the best/right way to set this up for my son. Do I have to have the capacitative discharge system in place first before I wire in higher amp push buttons to my panel? What kind of cost are we talking about? Thanks for suggestion


----------



## DonR

You can go ahead and wire your turnouts using the accessory terminals
on your power pack to test temporarily. A Capacitor Discharge unit can be bought commercially,
or your could build one that uses a transistor, a capacitor and some 
resistors. If you choose the latter the materials cost would be less than
10.00. You definitely want one so your son does not accidentally push
to long and burn out a turnout motor. If you elect to make your own, PM
me your mailing address and I can send you the parts list and diagram.
My printer scanner is not working.

The Red and Black push buttons are labelled N.O. (normally open) or
N.C. (normally closed). So it's important to read the labels. Black does
not necessarily mean N.C. today. I have both red and black N.O. buttons
from Radio Shack.

You can test your wiring backwards from the track with a Volt/ohmeter set
on ohms. One probe on a rail, the other
on the end of a wire, or at a suitcase connection, to find where you are
losing conductivity.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Thanks, Traction Fan - I am definitely getting the higher amp buttons because I do indeed want to purchase the CD unit now. I'm not interested in making one - I'm lucky I can make a peanut butter sandwich…but I bet you all could tell from my posts!  

Do I have to buy a CD unit for each switch/turnout? Where can they be purchased?


----------



## Butterball52113

I had a lot of good RR time yesterday and was able to get power to ALL of the track! Wahoooooo….or should I say CHOOO CHOOO thanks to YOU all! My son sat on my lap last night and we ran a loco on the layout for about 30 minutes - he was so excited and happy! He loves it! 

I still have a long way to go and need your help with switches, cleaning/lubing locos, and fine tuning the track. There are a couple of weird spots in the track…where if I flip the switch to operate a turnout/swtich it may kill a portion of the track - does that mean the switch mechanism is bad? 

Another weird thing I have to mention - my power issue was with a set of feeders on the inside loop on the left side of my layout. The original owner had spliced in some VERY thin gauge wire to the original wires coming from the switches….I just used those to connect to my main bus line via suit case clips - I had a good connection to the suit case clips but its like the electricity wasn't running through those VERY thin wires. I had some thicker gauge wire and cut out the thin wire and used that instead….it still didn't work so not sure if it was suitcase clip connection or what….however, I wired it directly to the terminals on the power pack and that's when EVERYTHING worked! ??? Also - before I just wired it up like the original owner had and it wasn't working - however, when I switched the pos/neg wires up on the power pack terminals it worked. I wasn't sure if this was just a coincidence or if it meant some "odd very specific electrical polarity reverse thing" you guys know of???? Sorry for my stupidity


----------



## DonR

You did right. It's working. Congrats.

You may have what we call 'power routing' in the turnout that
'disconnects' the power from a connected track. Some turnouts
are designed to do that. Others, may have a bad contact from
the point rail to the connecting track rail. You could check for
corrosion where the turnout point rails contact the rigid sides of rails
and clean any you find.

If cleaning the turnout does not restore power or if your turnout
has power routing, you would simply
add a drop from the track connected to the frog rail to your power buss (observing
polarity). That way the power would always be on regardless of
how the turnout is set. Only the rail connected to the frog would need
the drop. If this is in one of those 'blocks' be sure to connect the drop
to that 'block' power buss.

Don


----------



## traction fan

*Button current*

When I was still using twin-coil switch machines; I started with the little red buttons. They were adequate for operating one or two machines directly from the accessories terminals. When I built a Capacitive discharge system, I wanted to incorporate "route control", which involves throwing multiple turnouts simultaneously, with one button. After smoking a few red buttons, I switched to larger door bell type buttons. I think they were rated at 2 Amps each.
It's been many years since I used twin coils at all. I much prefer the DC motors that most of us use now. My "retired senior brain" doesn't work worth spit at remembering much these days!
I do remember working from a book, "Electronic projects for model railroaders" by Peter Thorne. I suspect this is long out of print, but I still have it if you want me to look something up.

Regards,
Traction fan

P.S. You asked if you would need a C.D. system for each turnout. No. As you may have gathered from this post,one C.D. system can operate multiple turnouts. You only need one for the whole railroad.


----------



## DonR

Traction fan

I've used those 'little red buttons' for years. I do have a diode matrix
routing system in my yards. A push of one 'red button' throws up
to 5 twin coil Peco turnouts powered by a Cap discharge unit. No
problems with the current draw thru them.

Do you by any chance have a streetcar or interurban layout?

I have been a traction fan since teen years. Am a member of
Electric Railroad Clubs of Florida.

Don


----------



## traction fan

*Traction fan on Traction fan to Don R.*

My layout models a few spots of the Milwaukee Road's heavy, main line, traction from Seattle to Hyak, Washington. This was part of Milw.'s pacific coast division. They ran Boxcabs, Bipolars, Quill motors and even (briefly as an experiment) Little Joes. 
I plan to model a tiny part of Seattle, including Union Station ( U.P. & Milw.) with King street Station ( GN & NP) on the backdrop. These stations are across the street from each other and were once trolley served. 
So a bit of street car track may show up.


----------



## Butterball52113

Where can I buy a model railroading CD unit for my n scale layout? 

Also - for my switch panel I plan on making - how do you all create the mock layout map on the board? What do you use? White paint? White tape? I want it to look nice and professional like the few you guys showed but I'm afraid it's gonna turn out looking like a hot mess...I have a tendency to do that :-(


----------



## traction fan

*Some answers on CD unit Control panels and the great button debate*

Butterball;

I did a bit of research for you, and here's what I was able to find.
Walther's, the super-store of train stuff,(walthers.com) has a CD unit available. It's Walthers item#475-PDC, and the cost is $36.95. If you can solder, it wouldn't be all that much harder to make than that peanut butter sandwich. It would be much cheaper to make than buy. If you prefer to buy, that's the only one I could find. Since the DC motors have made twin coil machines all but extinct, I guess there's not much demand for CD units now. It makes sense for you though, as replacing all your switch machines would take a lot of skilled labor, and a LOT of money!
Control panel diagrams have traditionally been made with narrow masking tape( available as an architectural supply item) 3M makes it and you can order it from micromark.com. There are two ways the tape is used. The easy way is to just stick the tape to a contrasting color panel, and leave it there. The other method is to spray paint the panel white(or whatever color you want the narrow lines to be) and then put the tape on, spray a different color on top, and CAREFULLY remove the tape after everything has dried. Last step, with either method is to spray a clear lacquer over the finished panel to protect your handiwork from finger prints and possibly fallout from a peanut butter sandwich!:laugh:
Well, it's past bedtime for this senior citizen, so I will save the button info for the next post. 

Hope this helps you out.

Traction fan


----------



## Butterball52113

*Heartfelt THANK YOU!*

Traction Fan / All: 

I can't thank you enough for all of your help and support since joining this group! All of your expertise, knowledge, experience, & helpful research you've done for me has been such a blessing to me. You've enabled me to take this electrical mess & turn it into a beautiful full functioning train layout my son loves! I've felt guilty asking so many questions (some very dumb I'm sure) & you all take it in stride & even do research for me because I'm sure you sense I'm clueless and lost. Thank you, thank you, thank you! 

Traction Fan - I really appreciate your extra research and in depth explanations...I need it! I have never soldered before which is why I'm just going to buy the cd unit. Trust me, if I felt confident about making one I would - I'd rather save $ and put that towards another loco for my son. I just made my own steel plate girder bridge out of the free paint stirrers at walmart, toothpicks from the kitchen, and a silver metallic sharpie I found in our junk drawer...I have a little "McGyver" in me...if you've ever seen that show. Unfortunately I think switch panel, cd unit, any other "train project" may be delayed a bit. 

My Rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia, and nerve pain is what hinders me with a lot of this. I just can't move like I used to anymore. Cannot kneel, bend & shaky hands. I worked all day last Saturday on layout to get it "play worthy" for my son to enjoy Sunday and I haven't been able to move since...pain/stiffness so bad and nerve pain so bad I actually have MRI today to check it out. Just wanted to explain why such a flurry of questions since joining - because my health declining and had a fear I couldn't get it working for my son to enjoy before I got any worse. 

It works! My son loves it & I owe you guys so much! Thank you & God Bless You All


----------



## Fire21

Butterball, I pray you find relief from your pain and movement restrictions. And enjoy those trains!! :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## DonR

Butterball

Here is one of my turnout control panels made using
the technique of first painting the whole panel
yellow, then applying the stripe material where I
wanted 'tracks' to show exactly as trainfan explained.
That is followed by spraying the maroon then
removing the stripe material.









You then drill the holes for the various switches
and push buttons as you see on mine.

Don


----------



## traction fan

*Button button, which kind of button?*

Butterball;
Let me begin by saying I'm sorry for your ailments. I have some of the same and can relate.
As for the button info, again I researched a bit and here's what I found in my all electronics catalog. (allelectronics.com)

1) cat#MPB-1 Small low current red button. 85 cents ea. MPB-1B= Black, MPB-1BL=blue,MPB-1G=green, MPB-1Y=yellow, MPB-1W=white. ALL the preceding are of the GOOD, N.O.(normally open) type.
* They do also list one BAD one MPB-5 N.C.(normally closed type) which you don't want!

2) cat#PB-143 Big 4 amp doorbell type that I switched to. $3.95 ea.**

3)cat#PB-204 Medium sized 3 amp type. $1.50 ea. (10 for $1.30 ea.)

** I switched to this one because I was using old Tenshodo brand, BIG under-the-table machines which had BIG coils wound with BIG wire, and they drew BIG amounts of current. On top of this I was throwing multiple machines with the same button ("route control") and using a high current capacity CD unit.
Your Flieshman topside machines look like near clones of the Atlas brand ones. These are, you guessed it, small machines, with small coils, of small wire, and most importantly, a small current draw. Therefore Any of the good N.O. buttons in 1), 2), or 3) above should work fine for you.
A bit of electrical "current draw" explanation.
Example; you decide to have toast for breakfast. You put a couple of pieces of bread in the toaster an push the button.
What happens? Duh! the toaster comes on, heats the bread and pop, you have toast.
What(thank goodness) DOES NOT happen. 
You, the toaster, and everything around you are not instantly incinerated by a lightning-like burst of electricity! Why not? Current draw.
I'm telling this rather weird tale, because the CD system (from walthers) that I told you about may be a high current capacity type.( It's supposed to be able to throw as many as ten machines at once.)
Fortunately, Like the toaster, your switch machines will only draw the amount of current that they need, no matter how much is available.(like the millions of amps available in the national electric grid the toaster is plugged into.)
So it's your choice, any of the buttons, connected to that walthers CD unit, should work with your turnouts. 
One final recommendation. Use big wire(18-16ga.) between the CD unit and the turnouts.
The tiny(28ga.?) wires from the switch machine are fine to go under the table, but there they should each be connected to a bigger, and therefore, lower resistance wire for the run back to the panel. This is because, for a fraction of a second, those wires have to carry a lot of electricity.

Hope you feel better soon!
Traction fan


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## Butterball52113

Thanks for the prayers & well wishes guys...I appreciate it! Life is good & I'm in good hands with The Lord.


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## Butterball52113

Don - your panel is awesome looking....so professional! That's exactly how I hope mine turns out!!!! 

Traction fan - again , can't thank you enough for all of the highly detailed info - I really appreciate it. 

I need to cool it with projects for a while to give my body a rest...but as soon as I'm ready....I'm going after the switch wiring with the nice push button panel and cd unit. 

I may have to fix a few bridges too - I reconnected the two pieces of the layout and made bridges out of paint stirrers...my wife said it looked bad/pieced together so I'm probably going to re-do...it about broke my heart to hear it and I certainly don't want my son to say that about it either. I'll post pics so you all can see and tell me what you think. Don't make fun of me though...I tried! Ha


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## Butterball52113

*Will this work for my switch panel?*

Hey guys - would this work for a switch panel? Found this on e-bay - its 1/8" thick though. What size do you recommend? Is 8x10 a good size?


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## Butterball52113

Where do you all find the small track bed screws? I cannot find them anywhere. Please let me know. Thanks!


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## DonR

Are you saying 8 feet X 10 Feet or 8 X 10 inches? The 8 X 10
inch size would likely b a good size. Masonite is a good material and
easy to work with. You should be able to find it at a Home Deport,
Lowes or Menard's, perhaps, even, at a Hobby Lobby.

I don't use any track bed screws. I use Elmer's white glue
to attach the track bed to the plywood, then again to attach
the track to the bed. But use very small dabs of it spaced
about a foot apart. You will want to be able to undo it at
some point.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Ok...been a while on this thread. Finally got some masonite board for my sons switch panel I plan to make. I need to continue to hold off on that project - doctors have been playing around with my meds and my MRI showed I have 4 herniated discs, pinched nerve, and spinal stenosis in my neck...just don't feel good enough to do it. 

My son and I play with his trains everyday....even before his little toes hit the floor after I pick him up from his crib, his legs are running a million miles an hour to get to the train room....and I have YOU ALL TO THANK FOR THE JOY THAT GIVES ME! Thank you

Today was a rough day on the railroad though...it seemed like nothing worked, locos weren't working, trucks were jumping track, certain areas of track weren't working. 

I think I may have a big problem (?) because it seems like when I throw one particular switch it kills power to another area of track. Also I had two locos going the other night and I'm pretty sure one was going the opposite direction of the other (on different area of track) and I'm only using one terminal on my power pack. I know you all mentioned that I could wire up both sides of my power pack (both terminals) to run two different trains. I was just worried maybe it was wired for that already? I don't know - I guess I just "don't know diddly" about this stuff and I'm paranoid about frying locomotives or switches, etc. I just like playing trains with my son on my lap!


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## DonR

In a previous posting you had what I took to be Atlas turnouts. Normally
these are not power routing. 

You can test this way. Put your volt meter, set to DC, on the
track that loses power. Then manually with your fingers move
the points on that turnout. If that does cut off the power to
that section of track that turnout has power routing. It's very
simple to over ride that without having to bother fixing the
turnout. Just solder a wire to the frog rail of the section that
loses power and connect it under the table to your track buss,
observing polarity.

Very possibly the turnout point or the stationary rail it contacts
when thrown has some corrosion or dirt that is blocking current
flow. You might check for that before adding the 'drop'.

Don't think you'd have
one DC loco going forward and one backing on a track powered
by ONE power pack unless that section of track was connected with
reversed polarity to the main track. A train crossing between
the two tracks would be an immediate short circuit.

If you think this may be happening you can check it. Set your volt meter
to DC. Put the probes to the main rails and note whether the track
voltage is + or -. Then without changing the power pack, go to
the section where you think a train was running in opposite direction
and do the same. If there is a polarity difference you will want to 
reverse the track drops to your buss for that section.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Thanks, Don! I appreciate your detailed help. I really don't know how to use the meter I have so what you just wrote helps. I've been trying to find a good / basic tutorial on how to use it for model railroads but haven't really found anything on youtube.


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## DonR

The instructions come with the volt/ohm meter.
It is a very simple device and easy to use.

For model railroading you would use it mainly to
determine continuity, such as your current problem.

There are 3 settings that you would likely use.

1. AC voltage
2. DC voltage
3. Ohms, or resistance measurement.

On DC layouts you use the DC voltage setting. The Red
probe goes to POSITIVE. The black to negative. You would
do no harm reversing these, but your reading would show a -
indicating negative. To test it, use an AA, AAA, C or D battery.
Put the red probe on the top contact, the black probe on the
bottom. You should see l.5 volts.

On DCC layouts you use the AC voltage setting. The red and
black probes can be used either way. Put a probe on each
rail. You should get a reading of 14 to 18 volts.

On most meters you have a range of volts. Choose the one
more than but closest to what you want to read. 

The voltage will show on most as a digital readout, or if you
have a classic meter with a needle, it will point to the voltage.

The OHM setting is used to check for continuity or short circuits.
Choose a setting around 100 to 200 range. 

To test for a short,
put one probe on one wire, and the other probe on the other
suspect wire. If you get a reading, no matter it's value, you
have a short.

To test for continuity, (a good connection)
you use the probes exactly as in the short test.
But if you get a good reading, the indication is
you have a good connection. If there is NO 
reading, the connection is open.

There are two cautions:

1. Do NOT leave the selector set on Amperage. 
It acts like a short circuit. If you put the probes on
live wires, sparks will fly.

2. Make sure the AC selector is set for more than 240 volts
before using the meter to check regular household current,
in an outlet, for example.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Thanks, Don! I truly appreciate you! I will try this next time I get a chance to work on the railroad.


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## Butterball52113

Hi all! It's been a while. Just wanted to share this quick video showing how using only one terminal on my power supply I can control both the inner and outer loops on the layout - operating in different directions. Is that ok? Or was this wired incorrectly? I just don't want to burn out any switches or locos. Thanks

My son and I are having a blast with his train set!


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## DonR

BB

Something went wrong...No video...

Usually, you must post a video to some server such as Youtube
then you link to that here on the Forum.

Don


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## Butterball52113

That's weird...the video was up last night. I posted it to my YouTube account and provided a link. I'll try again.


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## Butterball52113

I just refreshed my session and the original video was there???


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## DonR

Did you click on the YOUTUBE icon above right
on the reply screen
when you created the link? You then type in the 
Youtube video #.

If you wired the outer oval with Plus wire on the outside rail
and the other oval with plus wire on the inside rail, yes,
you could run both trains at the same time with one power
pack and one would
go clockwise and the other would go counter clockwise. No
harm done.

Both would be going forward or reverse whichever you set.
You could not control them individually, but using an on/off
switch in the lines from the power pack to the ovals
you could stop one or the other

You could not use turnouts to connect the two ovals wired
in this manner unless you used insulated joiners between
the two turnouts.

Don


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## Butterball52113

How about this link? Can you all view the video now?


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## Butterball52113

*Video*

here is the direct link to the video - not sure why it isn't embedding the link when I click on the youtube button to reply to post. 

https://youtu.be/VxKtfaM79mk


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## Butterball52113

*Thank you so much!*

Thank you all for your guidance - my son's "FUN" N-scale train layout is complete! 

This is not perfect or exact to any specific period - just wanted it to be fun for my 2-1/2 yr old son to run trains...mission accomplished & I HAVE YOU ALL TO THANK!

Here's the YouTube video link of it:


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## DonR

Hey Butterball.


The links not there.

Give it another try.

Don


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## Cycleops

Love it! Plenty going on. You've spent a lot of time and thought on the scenery. All for your 2 1/2 year old, yeah right. Pull the other one!


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## DonR

Looks good...congrats. Now it's time to have
fun.

Don


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## Butterball52113

Oh no - this is all for my son - I never liked trains until he developed an interest & had no clue cabooses are extinct....ha!


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## DonR

Cabooses extinct? Balderdash! I have five Santa Fe s on my caboose track.

It's only those uncaring real railroads that shun the most popular car
on the train.

D


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## Butterball52113

Yeah - we always run cabooses on our trains. That's my sons favorite car on the train - calls them "booses" - really cute. Sometimes he runs 2-3 cabooses at a time on his trains. In my opinion a train is incomplete without a caboose!


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## DonR

I've seen trains with more than one caboose. Might have been
moving them to another yard. 

Don


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