# Thinking about a rebuild, na doing it!



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , its all in the title. Maybe a jan , feb start date. Basement layout , 3 or 4 sheets of plywood. Not sure on the exact dimensions. I may revisit my old layout, or add to it and expand. The old was dismantled but i have the tops minus the buildings and tall scenery. I like old school stuff and operating accessories. Real life train reproduction isnt high on my list. Fun and loaded with crap is a better way to describe what I want. 

Questions, are: 

Do people still use legacy stuff? Or tmcc stuff? I have both , never used. Or Is it all Bluetooth stuff now? And what will legacy or tmcc run with? I have engiens to run on both ( not a lot) and the controlers. I have a ton of post war stuff and some pre war. Batteries will probably need replacing on the higher tec stuff. 

Track: I still like the old stile 3 rail. I have it , and bigger radius stuff. Plus plentiful switches. Worth it to upgrade or not? 

Keep it conventional or add so I can do other stuff later. Or a mix of a middle 2 loops conventional and one loop with newer tec? 

Options, opinions, thoughts or ridicule is welcome.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

This was my old layout, for reference.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Seems like two different questions.

The layout and track type are mostly removed from control system decisions.. Modern control will work on most any layout. The exception would be if your into operating ala real life - switching consists, yard work, etc. - easier with modern control. Of course that style of operation would also dictate some of the layout. Me, I like building and letting 'em run.

Operating accessories ala pre-post war are routinely done in conventional. Simulating a working yard, likely better with modern control. You can switch out conventional control and modern control fairly easily (like turning the transformer to max or so to provide stable power). The exception would be some DC only sets. But I understand those to be entry level burner sets (not sure).

Me, I'd decide how I want to "play" with my trains. Then develop a layout from there - maximizing space and radius with what I have to work with. There's several track planning S/W products. I used SCARM's its free license for 100 tracks (*download*). Helped a bunch creating three loops, maximizing radii and custom sections in a narrow spot in the old basement. Just downloaded it again as I'm on a brand new PC.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea , i get that. Thats why in the old layout it had lots of isolated sidings, you could use them for switching, but it was more that they were isolated for tasks, like the horse corral, cattle corral, coal loader etc. Some needed precision to line up, others just made a mess. Lol. So you could park a car set the voltage and watch it work. If you wanted you coyld also use it as a switching layout. But that was way harder then parking the cow car out of the way of the runners, so its perfectly lined up to move and tip cows. Yes they tip a lot. I may just do the outer 072 loop wires for legacy. As thats what I need to run the big rig. Dont kbow how isolated rails ( or dont remember) will effect that. I think i need to keep the one side for the comunication on the legacy side of it uninterrupted, and I can controll stuff on the other one?

Your layout looks good, just remember scram ( or at least it used to) dosen't always acount for switch motors with the older track. I will do as I did the first time, tape on the floor and dry fit it. I have an idea, but not sure yet. Thanks for the thoughts. I am leaning to more conventional. Just because of the amount of accessories, maybe the cow on track will be broken out for this build. Dont tell Ed!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

sjm9911 said:


> Do people still use legacy stuff? Or tmcc stuff? I have both , never used. Or Is it all Bluetooth stuff now? And what will legacy or tmcc run with? I have engiens to run on both ( not a lot) and the controlers. I have a ton of post war stuff and some pre war. Batteries will probably need replacing on the higher tec stuff.


I run Legacy, TMCC, and DCS on my layout. Although I have the WiFi units for both MTH and Lionel, I rarely even look at BT. I don't feel like running my trains with my phone, the range is limited on many of the engines no matter what phone or tablet I use, etc.

For my money, you can keep the BT for earphones, I'll stick to the native control systems.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so far, i think inside loops conventional, and outside will be legacy. Besides , the only legacy thing I have only operates on the 072. ( i think its only one. It may be 3, lol) Ill keep the other stuff inside and see what I come up with. I have been knocking off the jobs around the house I have been procrastinating on, so I can clean up the basement a bit and see what type of room I have. I am thinking something easy, not like yours GRJ. While I can do that, I am time limited. My new hobby ( a camper) has me away for most of the nice weather months. 
So , still thinking about 4 sheets of plywood, eaither in a big U , or 2 sheets in the middle and the other 2 off to the sides. I will probably have to add a bit for the 072 curves around the edge. I'll strat planning soon, I hope.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Yea , i get that. Thats why in the old layout it had lots of isolated sidings, you could use them for switching, but it was more that they were isolated for tasks, like the horse corral, cattle corral, coal loader etc. Some needed precision to line up, others just made a mess. Lol. So you could park a car set the voltage and watch it work. If you wanted you coyld also use it as a switching layout. But that was way harder then parking the cow car out of the way of the runners, so its perfectly lined up to move and tip cows. Yes they tip a lot. I may just do the outer 072 loop wires for legacy. As thats what I need to run the big rig. Dont kbow how isolated rails ( or dont remember) will effect that. I think i need to keep the one side for the comunication on the legacy side of it uninterrupted, and I can controll stuff on the other one?
> 
> Your layout looks good, just remember scram ( or at least it used to) dosen't always acount for switch motors with the older track. I will do as I did the first time, tape on the floor and dry fit it. I have an idea, but not sure yet. Thanks for the thoughts. I am leaning to more conventional. Just because of the amount of accessories, maybe the cow on track will be broken out for this build. Dont tell Ed!


Forgot all about a cow on the tracks.
I did a search....model railroad s scale cow on tracks......first thing that came up,  I was looking in 2010, I guess they are rarer now. 








WTB: S Scale Cow


Edited, forget it. Edit B&M start this in a new thread under whatever. Thank you B&M




www.modeltrainforum.com




If I had one, I would probably wreck something trying to run it over.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hmmm, fifty bucks with box, there are a few more listed but my interest went away now. 








American Flyer cow on track to 3791 original box | eBay


<p>American Flyer cow on track to 3791 original box. </p><p>Very clean very nice all original box in excellent condition small Christmas sticker on box I did not try to remove in fear of damaging box I’m sure it can be removed carefully</p>



www.ebay.com


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ed, there was the Maiden Rescue accessory that had a girl plopped across the tracks triggered by an insulated rail. Usually the girl was somewhat disheveled from being hit by the train after it had been run some.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> Forgot all about a cow on the tracks.
> I did a search....model railroad s scale cow on tracks......first thing that came up,  I was looking in 2010, I guess they are rarer now.
> 
> 
> ...


Half the stuff I have I forgot about. And I still get something here or there at the flea market. I think I have 3 of the old coal loaders, the pre war ones. I bought one for parts but it worked. Lol. The saw mill has to ho somewhere also. And the MTH firehouse. Crap, I have too much stuff. I still need a few pre war bridges. I have and idea , but i need to see if it works.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Sounds like you're in the same came as I. Here's a video of my layout.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice , lots of stuff I dont have also. Lol. Amazing how many operating accessories there are. Thanks for sharing. And yes, i have a ton of accessories.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so mesuring and thinking. I have a little room and 3 tables allready built from previous layout. While i want to keep some things on my old layout( I really liked it) adding the o72 curves around the outside will take some changes. I may strip what's left of the old scenery from the 2 tables, so 2 sheets of plywood. And I have a 3rd allready build, ot was the prototype with 027 switches and 0 track. So that gives me 3 tables. I Can not find the legs I had, they may have went into the fireplace.......so i will figure that out and maybe build a small yard. Maybe a 2 x 8 off in the corner? If i need to add for the 0 72 curves, it shouldnt be hard to add to the tables. They are old school and built with 2x4s. So heavy.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

What im thinking, and the area im planning on using. Unfortunately, i may have to resuport some of the floor joists, not for the train set, just something I have been putting off, so I will not have to worry avout it later. Its not a big deal.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so look at that plan if you can and tell me what you think, its just like scram right?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok next is power. I forget some stuff here. So, I have lots of transformers sitting around. They may work or not, but i can fix them. Lol. Was thinking, one power circuit to each track. Thats 3. One more power feed for lights. One more for switches and accessories. Or should I break this into two? I know switches work best around 14 to 16 volts. And accessories can change depending on age, oil and motors , plus what they are. I may break this up also. So thats like 5 feeds on seprate lines. If I run the legacy it will be on the outside loop, and may need a newer type transformer. Or power pack thing. Can I run that off the zw centinal that no one liked, lol. Or xan the legacy be powered with a reguler zw? I have 4 zws, a centinal zw, a z , 4 180 bricks, and various other stuff. So i can use diffrent stuff no problems.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I don't think you'll get much if any O-72 on that benchwork. See the pic. I used SCARM and recreated your bench. I laid Gargraves because SCARM lists the track length/curve radius right on the plan - better illustration of fit. Other track will have similar fit. Best I could do was O-54 in the corners and O-42 on the semi circles. I went through the same issues while designing my former benchwork. I even inlaid the benchtop level with the 2"x4" sides to gain the extra 3" of bench width to get O-52 leading into the semicircles and O-42 at their crests ....

The s/w will avoid many false starts. SCARMS 1st hundred pieces of track are included in the free license.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Unfortunately, no computer. Yes, i know it will go over, lol. How much, i have no clue. Figured I would cheat the inside and the left side of the board. O can add on , but i have no clue how much is needed. I figue , that is the idea , that you layed out. Cheat it a little in, and run another track around it. This may be a bigger undertaking then originally thought.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Or I cpuld just sell the train that needs the 072. Thats another option. Lol. And the track and switches. Imagine the stuff i could buy.......


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

*






















For comparison. *


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Get graph paper. Standard size is 8.5 x 11" with 1/4" divisions. If you set a scale of one 1/4" division equals 6" of layout, the paper will support a scale drawing of 204" wide and 264" tall.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Here's the same design but using 0-54 at all the leading edges of the semi circles. You can see why I needed the extra 3" width added to the 48" wide tops.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks mike, lots to think about. This week I may clean out the area and rough it out on the floor.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Frankly, my opinion is that shorter locos and rolling stock look much better on the tighter curves. I learned this many years ago when I was building my garden railway.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> Here's the same design but using 0-54 at all the leading edges of the semi circles. You can see why I needed the extra 3" width added to the 48" wide tops.
> 
> View attachment 573673


I may have to do that, the 072 center rail to center rail is about 6 feet. Lol. I could do it, but it may be too big for what I need. The train says it runs on 054. But I may have to cheat some bigger peices in. I dont even know if I have 054. I thought I had 054 on my old outside loop but it could be 042. Whatever it was the train would not run on it. Decisions, decisions......


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so best bet for 054 looks to be menards. Ebay has track but for more money then them. I still have time so I can look around for a month or two.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> I may have to do that, the 072 center rail to center rail is about 6 feet. Lol. I could do it, but it may be too big for what I need. The train says it runs on 054. But I may have to cheat some bigger peices in. I dont even know if I have 054. I thought I had 054 on my old outside loop but it could be 042. Whatever it was the train would not run on it. Decisions, decisions......


You said way back when that they were all O42's. You thought. You said the table was 4' wide, O72's wouldn't fit on that.
Which they look like o42 in your old pictures. 









my first layout


The one side had some burn? Marks. The metal seemed melted. I could not get them all out. I heated the eng in the oven for a few minutes at 170 degrees before painting. I also heated the spray paint in warm water. I used paint from my local napa ( car repair store) . The spray paint was of much...




www.modeltrainforum.com


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> You said way back when that they were all O42's. You thought. You said the table was 4' wide, O72's wouldn't fit on that.
> Which they look like o42 in your old pictures.
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, i forgot there was older stuff here also ed! Bonus is I have a fireplace now, lol. Yup, your right. 042. So the 0 54 may work. The 072 is so big. I just dont have the room to spare. So, this may be doable with just a little added on to the tables. Outside 054, then 042, then the 032. I just found a big box of prewar 072 on creigslist. Lol. Not that I need it. I could sell the 0 72 switches or maybe make them work somewhere.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wow, that tread was definitely a blast from the past. And , lots of good info and advice there.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It is your thread, lol. 

I always thought that the o/54 track was the largest curve you could get in the o/27 style. O FastTrack has 54 curves.
On my main table it is all o/27 style, the curves on the outside line corners are o/54's.
Or used to be till I had to tear my extension corner out, when that goes back together I will mate my true O track to it. On the extension I had all true O track.
I am waiting for the price of wood to drop. 
Got to get over to my sister's house, she has a nice 5/8" 4x8 sheet of plywood to get rid of. Plus some smaller cut pieces of 5/8" plywood.
Free but heavy!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> It is your thread, lol.
> 
> I always thought that the o/54 track was the largest curve you could get in the o/27 style. O FastTrack has 54 curves.
> On my main table it is all o/27 style, the curves on the outside line corners are o/54's.
> ...


If you need a hand, ed, I'm not that far away. Np.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Getting closer to see how much room I have to work with. I will make it taller then what people call normal. This way all my train stuff will go on those rolling shelves , under the layout. No wasted space. ( the one in the picture will be cut down, high but not that high! ).


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And the idea is on the floor. I have room for an outer loop. But its big now. Still unsure if i will use anything as it now sits. I may touch it up and just run a seprate loop on the outside and add some switches and extend the one board ro the new old one.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Have you passed you plans by the "BOSS" ? He or she looks way to comfortable and I don't think your rolling shelves will be too welcomed.....LOL


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ed, there was the Maiden Rescue accessory that had a girl plopped across the tracks triggered by an insulated rail. Usually the girl was somewhat disheveled from being hit by the train after it had been run some.


Who made it John? I don't remember it, Lionel? K line? Marx?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Googled it,




__





Lionel 6-24154 Maiden Rescue Operating Accessory






www.grahamstrains.com






What was the first year of issue for these? Prewar? Post?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> *
> View attachment 573662
> View attachment 573663
> View attachment 573664
> ...


I would get rid of the old, junky, Orange & Blue locomotive. 
Sticks out like a sore thumb. 😎


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> And the idea is on the floor. I have room for an outer loop. But its big now. Still unsure if i will use anything as it now sits. I may touch it up and just run a seprate loop on the outside and add some switches and extend the one board ro the new old one.


Are you going to be able to walk around it? Will it away from the wall? 
You could put up a few shelves first? For the trains you don't really run.
Be easier now, before the tables are up.

Or else run a G scale track around the wall up top.
Build that first. 
Easier.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I still have all the g stuff ed. Lol. It can go around the top! I am going to put it off the wall 2 feet I think. So I can get to the other side, just in case. I'm getting older and walking is preferavle to stretching. And its too big to put the table on rollers.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> I would get rid of the old, junky, Orange & Blue locomotive.
> Sticks out like a sore thumb. 😎


I was going to give it away, but what would you do with that old dusty thing? Better to put it out of its misery!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> I was going to give it away, but what would you do with that old dusty thing? Better to put it out of its misery!


Only one on e bay right now.
Replacement cab yuck yuck. 








LIONEL POST-WAR 2341 JERSEY CENTRAL FM TRAINMASTER- REPLACEMENT CAB- S17 | eBay


THIS IS A 2341 JERSEY CENTRAL FM TRAINMASTER. IT DOES RUN WELL. THE HORN RELAY WORKS WELL BUT HAVE NOT TESTED IT W/A BATTERY. THERE ARE NO SCREW HOLE CRACKES AS WELL. 0/027 SCALE.



www.ebay.com


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> Only one on e bay right now.
> Replacement cab yuck yuck.
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, no scew hole cracks means not original. Plus it has lots of photos. Lol. One blurry one.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ah, clicked the discriptions. More photos, still not good ones. And they want a huge price. You could get a lackawana and paint it. Or find a shell.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

New problem, I may have to take the track off and start new. I have so much more stuff then when I started, I dont even know what I have. Maybe time to bring some things up stairs to figure this out. Planning , reworking the plan, and re planning , then screwing something up and redoing it is the key to a nice layout!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

These were the things just on top, I wonder what I have in boxes, lol.

















































an


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok since I'm super excited, and we are all covid, so im board. I need to get my mind right before building. So, electrical stuff is on the brain. Planning on bus bars under the table. Lots of them. Probably from electrical boxes. One common ground for 2 zws. One old and one the centinal that no one likes. One feed to each track. One feed to lights, one feed to accessories, one feed to switches / maybe operating tracks, and one feed to the smaller sidings. So thats 7 out puts. Some of the accessories will be direct wired per what works best , so like the oil derecks, etc. The others need diffrent voltage, and thats best done manually. At least thats what i previously known to be true. My siddings will be separately powered, just the small ones. So I can park cars and use them. So like the horse corral and cattle corral, things that are best not left up to conventional operation, but are parked and can be used and enjoyed. But if you wanted to you could back a train up on them and do it by eye. Next is the legacy, i plan on that for the outside loop , or maybe the outside 2 loops. I really have no clue how to set it up. But , if memory serves it needs an unbroken comunication line? So that would be the rail i dont have insulated rails on? If i get to the yard it will probably be powered by the outside loop with on off switches. So, while it will work, is it the best way to do it? And , I plan on having tons of operating accessories, and lights. I will need to source a led light place. That wasnt a thing 10 years ago, and if they had them they were $$$. They do make led bulbs now for switches , etc right?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Some equipment I was looking at/bought for my former permanent layout to streamline the electrical infrastructure and make for a tight finish.

This *Switch Panel *from eBay is one dozens of similar offers. If you look at the wiring, each switch can control any type of voltage and it's 12 V LED light can be powered from a separate 12 V source for "night" operation. Seems a little pricy but when you add up all the components to try to fashion it yourself, it's a good deal and looks sharp.

These *Wiring Distribution* blocks allow you to run drops using 12 to 20+ gauge wire. Push in connections. Small, neat and tidy. They'll screw right up into the underside of the platform. There are numerous variations (number of connectors, etc.). Just make sure they have holes for mounting. I have 5 similar blocks I'll never use. Send me a PM and I'll send them to you. You can try them out before buying.

All this was investigated to make a neat, clean, easy and professional looking installation.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks mike , those are good ideas. Never thought of the truck instrument panel as for trains, but its a great idea. Those other things are neet. And woyld work well for lighting of houses, street lamps etc. Like scotch locks? But better. I'll look at them closer tognight!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Thanks mike , those are good ideas. Never thought of the truck instrument panel as for trains, but its a great idea. Those other things are neet. And woyld work well for lighting of houses, street lamps etc. Like scotch locks? But better. I'll look at them closer tognight!


Who made the diner you show? K line?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> Who made the diner you show? K line?


I'll check, I found it in the trash! Lol. I was still grabbing cheap stuff for the train table, even if it wasnt up and running. I have problems!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lionel, looks like it smokes. Lol. Small powered element inside. I looked it up it. I wouldn't have know the thing smoked.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)




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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

OK, that is up in the 6- numbers. Never saw one.




__





Lionel 6-12722 Roadside Diner with Operating Smoke






www.grahamstrains.com


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I never had eaither, lol forgot I had it. It came with an engien and a passanger car. Never even looked at them, just tossed it in the pile.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It came with this.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Any idea what the last building is ed? the blue one, no numbers on it. So I cant find it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Now that I see the name Rossie's diner I think it was posted here years ago.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And i must say i am getting a bit ahead in the planning. Just relized i need a over head light in the area, plus more power. Normally not a problem, but i still never mapped out my electrical panel. I do know that I am might be at my max for piggy back breakers. So, this may need a subpanel. This is why I should leave well enough alone. But , thats the easy way. I will look at the pannel in the am, and see if I can squeeze in a circuit or two. I need 4 atually, for the rv hook up I never ran. Fingers crossed.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Any idea what the last building is ed? the blue one, no numbers on it. So I cant find it.


Maybe a spinoff of the 415?
Might be another newer one with a 6- number.





Accesories - Industries - 415 Diesel Fueling Station - Lionel Trains Library







postwarlionel.com


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> Maybe a spinoff of the 415?
> Might be another newer one with a 6- number.
> 
> 
> ...


Make more sense with the missing tower, lol. I have the guy. No tower. Thanks!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Lionel 6-12701














__





Lionel 6-12701 Operating Illuminated Fueling Station






www.grahamstrains.com


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

If I may interject with an opinion. I have had both the post-war diesel fueling station and the remake. I still have the post-war 415. The remake is long gone. Even though the original is noisy, it operates better than the remake. At least on my layout it does.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I have so much stuff, I dont think its all going to get used. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Maybe a few ares are designed to take different accessories Some can be rotated in and out of operation over time. 

Another thing to think about, sorry  

BTW: The newer LED "shoplights" draw 75% less power. Compare four 48" fluorescent bulbs at 216 W versus four 48" LED tubes at 54 W total.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I here you on that. I get leds shoplights now. i like to plug them in. The chepo fluorescent ones burn out the balists too quickly now anyways. And its just easier to get the light bar with the leds built in and scrap it when it breaks. So unplug it and toss it. We will see. I have to sister up a few beams first. I knew this when I bought the house. Buildings inspecter missed it. Not hard, just a lot of time. And since I dont want to do it again, might as well make it bullet proff.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> I here you on that. I get leds shoplights now. i like to plug them in. The chepo fluorescent ones burn out the balists too quickly now anyways. And its just easier to get the light bar with the leds built in and scrap it when it breaks. So unplug it and toss it. We will see. *I have to sister up a few beams* first. I knew this when I bought the house. Buildings inspecter missed it. Not hard, just a lot of time. And since I dont want to do it again, might as well make it bullet proff.


Been there, done that, I don't know how many times and ways. I'm a retired carpenter. I've seen it all. Home inspectors.....They miss alot or don't want to see it. When I retired I looked into being a home inspector. It's a click, in my opinion.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, its cold, and i cant source the wood I need to fix my joists, so I will see if I can order something next week, or buy much bigger and cut it. Unfortunately, since its a ranch home, the wood I need are 2x8 x14 and I can not find it. Even with those Inwould have to cut them to 7 1/4 inch , and some are 7 inch. Crazy. Since this is a solo job, I dont want bigger lumber. So, we wait. I have time. Meanwhile, im thinking of doing a smaller campground, and still thinking about the 054 curves or just make an island layout and do a 072 loop. Planning is the key. Im leaning on the 054. I also need to see what works in my 022 switch box. I will need more switches, but have no idea what I have thats operational. I do Have a spare spot for ellectric, so that can go for a light and maybe 2 two gang boxes for outlets. Ill just run a 20 amp breaker, and that should be good for a few transformers. And maybe a work bench for a dremal, and a drill press. Or not, who knows. I also need to take stock of what I have, bridges, accessories, and come up what what I will use and what I need to get. I am going to look through the plasticville box to see if I have any travel trailors. I was going to buy the 3 set, but I may allready have them.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, its cold, and i cant source the wood I need to fix my joists, so I will see if I can order something next week, or buy much bigger and cut it. Unfortunately, since its a ranch home, the wood I need are 2x8 x14 and I can not find it. Even with those Inwould have to cut them to 7 1/4 inch , and some are 7 inch. Crazy. Since this is a solo job, I dont want bigger lumber. So, we wait. I have time. Meanwhile, im thinking of doing a smaller campground, and still thinking about the 054 curves or just make an island layout and do a 072 loop. Planning is the key. Im leaning on the 054. I also need to see what works in my 022 switch box. I will need more switches, but have no idea what I have thats operational. I do Have a spare spot for ellectric, so that can go for a light and maybe 2 two gang boxes for outlets. Ill just run a 20 amp breaker, and that should be good for a few transformers. And maybe a work bench for a dremal, and a drill press. Or not, who knows. I also need to take stock of what I have, bridges, accessories, and come up what what I will use and what I need to get. I am going to look through the plasticville box to see if I have any travel trailors. I was going to buy the 3 set, but I may allready have them.


Yep, 14' is not a standard length. The 7 1/4" is odd. 2"" x 8"" nominal lumber is actually 1.5" x 7.5". How old is the house?

I had a buddy with an older ranch (1920s?) right on the water - originally a summer home for people with some bucks. Over any decades, his first floor sagged. Before shoring up the rafters, he lifted the floor. He use two hydraulic jacks and those 4" iron supports you see in many basements. Raise the floor a 1/4" a week, over 3 " total..


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It is odd. Lol, it was build in the 50s. And some of the joists are 7 inches. I dont get it either. Probably mis cut from the factory, or was cut down from larger lumber? I never seen something like if before. I have seen true dimensional lumber, thats atually the corect size, but never something weird like this. And thankfully the floor isnt sagged yet. Just supporting it so it dosen't. Its also weired how the beams split. Never really saw that also. But such is life, and my luck. When you think you have sceen it all, something proves you wrong!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> It is odd. Lol, it was build in the 50s. And some of the joists are 7 inches. I dont get it either. Probably mis cut from the factory, or was cut down from larger lumber? I never seen something like if before. I have seen true dimensional lumber, thats atually the corect size, but never something weird like this. And thankfully the floor isnt sagged yet. Just supporting it so it dosen't. Its also weired how the beams split. Never really saw that also. But such is life, and my luck. When you think you have sceen it all, something proves you wrong!


It's that "Murphy Guy". If I ever find him, you can take the next shot at him after me


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Framing lumber used to be cut to the half inch, i.e. a 2" x 8" used to be 1 1/2" x 7 1/2". Its been some time since this change was made. 2x4s, & 2x6s are still 3 1/2" and 5 1/2" respectively. 2x8s, 2x10s and 2x12s are all milled to the quarter inch, 7 1/4", 9 1/4" & 11 1/4". 

Up until the late '60s framing lumber was milled to 5/8". So a 2x4 was 1 5/8" x 3 5/8" and so on. When laying out we had to account for 13/16" on the first stud or joist. With the half inch dimension after the '60s it was just a bit simpler, only having to deduct 3/4". 

So it goes like this. When laying out studs, for instance, you hook your tape on the end of the sill plate, measure 16" and mark 15 1/4" and put the "X" on the right. Then you mark 32" and mark 31 1/4" and so on every sixteen inches until you reach the end of the particular wall you're laying out. So when you apply the sheathing, which is 48" wide, the first sheet winds up on the center of the fourth stud.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, its cold, and i cant source the wood I need to fix my joists, so I will see if I can order something next week, or buy much bigger and cut it. Unfortunately, since its a ranch home, the wood I need are 2x8 x14 and I can not find it. Even with those Inwould have to cut them to 7 1/4 inch , and some are 7 inch. Crazy. Since this is a solo job, I dont want bigger lumber. So, we wait. I have time. Meanwhile, im thinking of doing a smaller campground, and still thinking about the 054 curves or just make an island layout and do a 072 loop. Planning is the key. Im leaning on the 054. I also need to see what works in my 022 switch box. I will need more switches, but have no idea what I have thats operational. I do Have a spare spot for ellectric, so that can go for a light and maybe 2 two gang boxes for outlets. Ill just run a 20 amp breaker, and that should be good for a few transformers. And maybe a work bench for a dremal, and a drill press. Or not, who knows. I also need to take stock of what I have, bridges, accessories, and come up what what I will use and what I need to get. I am going to look through the plasticville box to see if I have any travel trailors. I was going to buy the 3 set, but I may allready have them.



You could use 3/4" sheathing plywood to strengthen the joists. Each joist gets the plywood applied to both sides. Just be sure to stagger the joints from one side of the joist to the other. This way you can rip each piece to the exact size of the joist. 

A more expensive way would be to use LVLs. They're much stronger than solid wood joist.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Now you got me thinking, they probably ripped down 2x16x14 on site, that will give you 7 1/4 and like 7 1/8 if they were off a bit. They mesured and cut one perfect, the other side had the kerf removed. So, its probably 7 1/4 and 7 1/8. Not 7 1/4 and 7. Only reasonable thing I can think of.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Atually scatch that, that dosen't work eaither. I need more coffee. 2x 15 x 14s maybe


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> Atually scatch that, that dosen't work eaither. I need more coffee. 2x 15 x 14s maybe


You may need even more coffee. A 2 x 16 or 15 ? Doesn't exist.....😂.....Here's another, although not ideal solution. Install a beam, wood or steel, perpendicular to the joists. Support the new beam with posts. You have now cut the joist span in half, but have posts to deal with. It's less costly than sistering each joist.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Madman said:


> Framing lumber used to be cut to the half inch, i.e. a 2" x 8" used to be 1 1/2" x 7 1/2". Its been some time since this change was made. 2x4s, & 2x6s are still 3 1/2" and 5 1/2" respectively. 2x8s, 2x10s and 2x12s are all milled to the quarter inch, 7 1/4", 9 1/4" & 11 1/4".
> 
> Up until the late '60s framing lumber was milled to 5/8". So a 2x4 was 1 5/8" x 3 5/8" and so on. When laying out we had to account for 13/16" on the first stud or joist. With the half inch dimension after the '60s it was just a bit simpler, only having to deduct 3/4".
> 
> So it goes like this. When laying out studs, for instance, you hook your tape on the end of the sill plate, measure 16" and mark 15 1/4" and put the "X" on the right. Then you mark 32" and mark 31 1/4" and so on every sixteen inches until you reach the end of the particular wall you're laying out. So when you apply the sheathing, which is 48" wide, the first sheet winds up on the center of the fourth stud.


I just measured a 2x8 at 7 1/8" and a 2x12 at 11 1/2" scraps left by the previous owner. Have no idea the vintage.

Now I thoroughly confused Thanks for that


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## Firewood (Nov 5, 2015)

Big Ed said:


> Googled it,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Millstonemike said:


> I just measured a 2x8 at 7 1/8" and a 2x12 at 11 1/2" scraps left by the previous owner. Have no idea the vintage.
> 
> Now I thoroughly confused Thanks for that


Yes I know. The mean dimensions are as I described. But there are tolerances also. Framing a house is not quite as straight forward as one might believe. These tolerances must be dealt with every day. Experience is the best teacher.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so some pictures. And to be honest, I have no clue how this would happen. For me the joists are undersized. But not overly so. Only thing I can think of is overloading the system and bounce over age split the joists. I will go today and get some lumber, still cold out but I can at least get the material needed. I get the knots in the wood added to this, but look at the last pic. No knots, but the beam split anyway. Weird. I will add about 6 sistered beams, if i have the room.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

A little epoxy would fix that right up.
Last picture,
Damn, did they use big enough nails for the floor?
I wonder what is up with the 2 holes for the electric wires?


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok , so some pictures. And to be honest, I have no clue how this would happen. For me the joists are undersized. But not overly so. Only thing I can think of is overloading the system and bounce over age split the joists. I will go today and get some lumber, still cold out but I can at least get the material needed. I get the knots in the wood added to this, but look at the last pic. No knots, but the beam split anyway. Weird. I will add about 6 sistered beams, if i have the room.
> View attachment 574898
> View attachment 574899
> View attachment 574900
> View attachment 574901


So are these 2 x 8 joists spanning the entire 14 feet without any intermediate support ? Rule of thumb is that the height of a joist can span double that in feet. i.e. a 2 x 8 inch joist can span 16 feet. But there will be alot of flex, up and down in that floor system. When I built our addition forty odd years ago, I used 2 x 10s @ 16" on center to span 16 feet and 14 feet in two rooms. I never like the slight bounce in the floors. About ten years ago, I installed 4 x 6 inch beams under each of these two rooms, cutting the spans in half. Vast improvement. 

The longitudinal checking shown in your photos, of the joists isn't what I would be concerned about. However the one joist with the large knot and check that runs into the knot I would definitely reinforce. 

As I mentioned in a previous post, if installing a beam down the center of the room and supporting the beam with adjustable Lally columns is doable for you,I would go that route.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I got to sister them up. The cracks in some in some the whole length of the span. I'll add as many as i can, addtionally I will add full boards in between them to help distribute the weights. I did look add adding a support under the middle also, its not out of the question, but would be harder to accomplish given my stairs are in that area. The sistering should work if I can get the full length boards in there. Glue and bolt. I can see light in between some of the cracks, not visavle in the pictures. So the span is bascicly suported by a 2x4 in some spots. The real test was havibg my daughter jump on the floor while I watched the cracks open and close. Scarry. It will not collapse, or sag anytime soon. But I rather fix it before putting the layout underneath it. Lol. For once in my life I am thibkibg ahead of time!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> I got to sister them up. The cracks in some in some the whole length of the span. I'll add as many as i can, addtionally I will add full boards in between them to help distribute the weights. I did look add adding a support under the middle also, its not out of the question, but would be harder to accomplish given my stairs are in that area. The sistering should work if I can get the full length boards in there. Glue and bolt. I can see light in between some of the cracks, not visavle in the pictures. So the span is bascicly suported by a 2x4 in some spots. The real test was havibg my daughter jump on the floor while I watched the cracks open and close. Scarry. It will not collapse, or sag anytime soon. But I rather fix it before putting the layout underneath it. Lol. For once in my life I am thibkibg ahead of time!


If that was in my basement I would be singing London bridge is falling down. 
That knot cracked plank I would pole brace, Pronto. ! < = !!!! !
Had her jump on the floor, ha ha ha should have done a video of the results. 

You been there over a year? How old is the house?
I would check around the whole house, foundation, roof/attic, inside wall cracks, etc.
Get a Fireman to check too.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> I got to sister them up. The cracks in some in some the whole length of the span. I'll add as many as i can, addtionally I will add full boards in between them to help distribute the weights. I did look add adding a support under the middle also, its not out of the question, but would be harder to accomplish given my stairs are in that area. The sistering should work if I can get the full length boards in there. Glue and bolt. I can see light in between some of the cracks, not visavle in the pictures. So the span is bascicly suported by a 2x4 in some spots. The real test was havibg my daughter jump on the floor while I watched the cracks open and close. Scarry. It will not collapse, or sag anytime soon. But I rather fix it before putting the layout underneath it. Lol. For once in my life I am thibkibg ahead of time!



I ''m sure it will work out. Please let me know how it goes. If I can be of any assistance, consultation wise, I am glad to help.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Madman said:


> I ''m sure it will work out. Please let me know how it goes. If I can be of any assistance, consultation wise, I am glad to help.


Either that or the whole house might go tumbling down. 
But are you a Fireman? 
 (He knows what I mean.)


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Its all good, 4 years now here Ed, time flys. I saw the 2 beams before I bought it. Wasn't a big deal at the time. I didnt see the other cracks. No big deal. The rest of the home is ok. Just your normal, who the hell did this work, when you go to do anything! Lol.house built in the 50s. So finally a place with no plaster! Thats a big plus to me.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh, the wood is in, I needed to get a hitch extender to carry it on the truck.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Oh, the wood is in, I needed to get a hitch extender to carry it on the truck.
> View attachment 574933



What no red flag? !
The yellow one is not legal.
Those might need a FRED light on it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I had a red plastic thing , wind ripped it and away it went. Yellow or blue shop rags was all I had in the truck. Lol.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> I had a red plastic thing , wind ripped it and away it went. Yellow or blue shop rags was all I had in the truck. Lol.


Those straps look loose too.
I would have put one strap wrapped around once. What they cost $2000 bucks? 

I have hauled creosoted timbers and RR ties. 
Damn things were so gooey they would always slip to the rear, had to stop often to check them.
I hated to bring them home. Stinky too, you had to toss gloves after you used them.
Glad they banned that years ago.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They were tight. At least the ones that mattered, I had way more then needed. I walked on the end, and lifted it. No movement. You there are 10 straps on there, lol. 4 around the wood, 4 holding tension from the wood strap to the truck. 2 straps over the top of the wood to prevent bouncing. Those are the looser ones. Then the tension bar across the front because I had it. Lol. Most of the weight is on the angle straps coming off the straps around the wood. The strap on the end is a cheap one, more so the wood didnt slide around.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Big Ed said:


> Either that or the whole house might go tumbling down.
> But are you a Fireman?
> (He knows what I mean.)


What's all this talk about a fireman ?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

That would be me. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so poking around at what I have, still waiting to fix the beems ( too cold right now). I was looking for some switches, and found a box of 10 or so in varrious peices, then I have the 2 072s nib, a pair of 022 old nib, and 4 manual ones. The manual ones may come in handy if i make a yard for a few trains. I also found tons of other buildings and stuff that I forgot I bought. I found the missle launch and target car , newer release, tug of war, lol. That may have to go in the smaller campground I make. Some plasticville, in boxes and dissasembled. So , much stuff. Also found the Marx audio engineer, I may have to hook it up. Its the predecessor of command controll, lol. I still can't find my celabration teansformer and the 4 180 bricks that go to it. I found ever other transformer ever made. Oh, and some 054 track I think. So that would be a plus. Still thinking on a layout design, I keep changing it in my head. I may just wait and see what the space looks like and set it up on the floor first. Last idea was an island type layout but, tbh, I dont like it set up that way.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok so poking around at what I have, still waiting to fix the beems ( too cold right now). I was looking for some switches, and found a box of 10 or so in varrious peices, then I have the 2 072s nib, a pair of 022 old nib, and 4 manual ones. The manual ones may come in handy if i make a yard for a few trains. I also found tons of other buildings and stuff that I forgot I bought. I found the missle launch and target car , newer release, tug of war, lol. That may have to go in the smaller campground I make. Some plasticville, in boxes and dissasembled. So , much stuff. Also found the Marx audio engineer, I may have to hook it up. Its the predecessor of command controll, lol. I still can't find my celabration teansformer and the 4 180 bricks that go to it. I found ever other transformer ever made. Oh, and some 054 track I think. So that would be a plus. Still thinking on a layout design, I keep changing it in my head. I may just wait and see what the space looks like and set it up on the floor first. Last idea was an island type layout but, tbh, I dont like it set up that way.


The Marx Audio Engineer along with a Lionel General Locomotive is the only thing I remember from my father's train set. I only recall seeing it once in the attic just before our new house was built. I did get to use it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)




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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I love the old boxes. Lol. It has a 50s vib to it. Especially plasticville rual unit 2 .


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok new hair brained idea, to fit in the larger curves. 054, not the 072 just yet, how about a walk way around the outside of the table, and conecting the table runs to a shelf run. So sort of like this rough drawing. This will give me the area to walk around the layout and allow the curves I want. The problems, layout ideas, will the dead space cause problems. And by that visually, my layout is more toy then real, but will a giant space be a problem? And where to locate the buildings for the town? There has to be a town! Lol. For the answer's to these questions tune in next week to I have no clue what I'm







doing!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok new hair brained idea, to fit in the larger curves. 054, not the 072 just yet, how about a walk way around the outside of the table, and conecting the table runs to a shelf run. So sort of like this rough drawing. This will give me the area to walk around the layout and allow the curves I want. The problems, layout ideas, will the dead space cause problems. And by that visually, my layout is more toy then real, but will a giant space be a problem? And where to locate the buildings for the town? There has to be a town! Lol. For the answer's to these questions tune in next week to I have no clue what I'm
> View attachment 576722
> doing!


I'd put the most of the inner loops at the back and the operating accessories towards the front. Easier to reach them and they typically need more "massaging" then trains just running on track.

What type of track will you use? If you radius and track sections on your diagram, I could work up a SCARM version to validate the design.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tublar, 054, 048, 032. Yea, no idea where I'll put stuff. Tbh, dont even know what I have. Or want. Track first, buildings second around the layout with the usbs. Planning is probably more important then building.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I have to get this done soon, ed wants to know how many silver dome cars the nj central can handle.  I think i have like 10 now.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok new hair brained idea, to fit in the larger curves. 054, not the 072 just yet, how about a walk way around the outside of the table, and conecting the table runs to a shelf run. So sort of like this rough drawing. This will give me the area to walk around the layout and allow the curves I want. The problems, layout ideas, will the dead space cause problems. And by that visually, my layout is more toy then real, but will a giant space be a problem? And where to locate the buildings for the town? There has to be a town! Lol. For the answer's to these questions tune in next week to I have no clue what I'm
> View attachment 576722
> doing!


Have you herd of Railmodeler ? It's an on line program for designing layouts in every gauge and type of track. I spent the thirty dollars or so and used it to design my layout.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I dont have a computer. Just my phone. Lol.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> I dont have a computer. Just my phone. Lol.


Many years ago, when I was doing "O" gauge, the first time, everything was done with a pencil and paper. This time I was resisting the digital method until I tried Railmodeller Express, the free version of Railmodeller. The free version only allows up to fifty pieces of track to be arranged on a page. 

Maybe I can help. Do you know the exact dimensions of your proposed layout ?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

4'x8' plywood sheets. You can guess the dimensions from the drawing.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yup, 3 of them. I have to add on somewhere to get 1 track with 054 curves. All tublar track.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

In order get an all O-54 loop, you need at least 5' (60") for the curves including 3" edge clearance. Here's 6' wide lobes on a "U". With that you get O-72 leading into the lobes and at the back with O-54 in the "middles". To much? I can scale it back to 5' wide lobes for pure O-54 curves.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks mike, I may try that out and see if it fits. I do have a column to deal with, but it may work best that way. 6 foot is a bit of a stretch, incase i need to fix stuff, but it may be doable. I may be inclined to try it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Thanks mike, I may try that out and see if it fits. I do have a column to deal with, but it may work best that way. 6 foot is a bit of a stretch, incase i need to fix stuff, but it may be doable. I may be inclined to try it.


OK, enough thinking and more sawing and banging please. 
Too cold you say?
Get a heater to keep you company down there.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, I have to cut the joists outside ed. Its too cold!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Lol, I have to cut the joists outside ed. Its too cold!


In the 3 car garage then?
Heck, make room in your living room. 

Supposed to get up to a balmy 50* this week.
Excuses, excuses. Next it will be camping. 

Your plans look great?
You draw them on the way to a fire call?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'll be started before camping season. Lol. But it will be close. It may have ro wait a week or two though ed. Unfortunately, i need to do some classes also. Man, too much stuff and no time to do it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok people, wiring, since im still planning what would you use vs whats affordable. Lol. I used to use copper speaker wire. But now copper is $$$$, so feeds will be copper. I have that in stranded . Now i was thinking CCA speaker wire 12/2? For the switches, lights , accessories, usc track, and the conteolls. Will ditch the standerd controlls for regular momentary / pole switches. Is this good enough, and run the track with copper? And i forget what breakers I need for the zws for newer stuff. So , i need the fast resetting breaker. Also, and whatever else I need. Might as well buy it now as some are getting electrical stuff backordered 90 or more days on my camper fourm.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, 12/2 is probably way overkill. 16/2 or 14/2 because its clad.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

20 ft of 16/2 carrying 5 amps will drop 0.4 volts ... if that's the only conductor. Many forget they have this low impedance, high current, highly reliable power carrier called "track". With good intertrack connections, you don't need (m)any drops or super heavy wire.

Last fall, I restored 50 pieces of Lionel Super-O for my Christmas layout. Not my first time restoring old track. I pay special attention to the pins and receiving rails to insure good intertrack contact. Those fifty pieces equated to 38' of track in a single loop including 5 insulated outside rails and an isolated center rail - so there was only one route of track to reach the furthest point from the transformer. A continuous loop has two routes to the furthest point.

For most of the season, I had just one transformer-to-track power connection. Never had a problem with power anywhere on the track. Super-O forces you to use two power tracks as they are an odd length. I eventually ran a wire to the other side of the loop (I felt guilty). I used what I had on hand: 22' of Cat-5e in-wall cable (everything is going wireless, right). Each of the 8 strands is 24 gauge. I used 4 for ground, 4 for throttle. That equates to 18 gauge lampcord.

Next year I'll run twin, dual motor F7s and a dummy B towing 7 aluminum passenger cars with two incandescent lights each on a continuous loop with both power tracks. I don't think I'll have a problem that will require more drops or heavier wire.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

My old layout had only 2 feeds per track, and no noticeable drop, execpt where i wanted it. I moved the lock ons so the train slowed on the downhill. So i get it. Proper pin placement, and I liked the dielectric grease on the pins. And i did use speaker wire, lol so 18 or 22 guage, but i think it was all copper. Not sure if the legacy stuff will transmit on CCA as well. But i am not an ellecrrical dc guy. Ac I know, dc not so much. I will need the breaker too. If I go old school z dub. I think Ill get a roll of 500 ft 16/2 speaker wire CCA.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> My old layout had only 2 feeds per track, and no noticeable drop, execpt where i wanted it. I moved the lock ons so the train slowed on the downhill. So i get it. Proper pin placement, and I liked the dielectric grease on the pins. And i did use speaker wire, lol so 18 or 22 guage, but i think it was all copper. Not sure if the legacy stuff will transmit on CCA as well. But i am not an ellecrrical dc guy. Ac I know, dc not so much. I will need the breaker too. If I go old school z dub. I think Ill get a roll of 500 ft 16/2 speaker wire CCA.


DC, AC. All you need to know is black to black, white to white and payday is Friday. Believe me, I've worked with plenty of electricians in my career as a carpenter, and that's about their mentality.....LOL So I'm sure you will master DC.....😂


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

After more tweaking, i am here on the track plan. Not exactly to scale. But i am trying. Lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And to add , i have been trying to buy some stuff. But dam have the prices gone up. I dont even come close to what thebstuff is selling for. Wow. Im getting to be that old guy. I am not paying those prices.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Still haven't made any head way on anything, lol. Still too cold to do the beams, hopefully in a few weeks. Once the weather breaks, I'm on it. Like ed said, camping season soon. Still bidding on stuff I think I need, not knowing what I have. And the track plans are now onto book two of legal pads. I don't have the room to commit to 4 pices of plywood, but I'm working on it. I think I have it narrowed down to a foot print. But I keep changing my mind, i think in a week or two I'll have a better idea. Im thinking to have an elevated loop to get my 3 tracks in. I definitely want an inner loop that changes direction, figure 8 ish , or dogbone, or something with a lot of siddings. The siddings can be used for switching, but will probably be stationary cars to show off the accessories. Need a farm, for the horse and cattle cars, milk car etc. Outskirts want an rv park, maybe just the end of it. So a few campers. Need another corner to be oil dereks, and a coal area. I wanted a town square also, with fire department, but that may be a corner and buildings on the wall in the backround. So many things to fit in . Track plan first, then tweak it to fit in the other stuff.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok folks, my latest, crude drawing. Obviously will be changed/ tweaked if it dosent work, or for accessories. 
i had something else I loved, but it wouldn't fit. This is decent, can run 3 trains and larger radius track. I scrapped the elevated section, it can still work but thos will be busy when I done. Plan is to cram as many accessories as I can onto the latout. It's a toy train layout. Nothing realistic here.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh and ed, i will never make fun of your gas meter being in the way again. I have a post and water main. Lol , serves me right. Karma.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Oh and ed, i will never make fun of your gas meter being in the way again. I have a post and water main. Lol , serves me right. Karma.


My meter is outside now. PSE&G went around replacing all lines, from the under streets, to the houses. Safety they said.
Mine is gone.
My corner still waits to be put back in now.

What did you do with those big planks?
They sitting out in the elements?
They are saying 69* this week one day. 
Cut them up.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Soon. There in the garage. I have to move them soon. Next 2 weeks, then I'll slap the table together. The kiddo atually seems excided to help make the scenery. So, that was a surprise. Any chance to play with glue i guess. I had 2 off the big bottles of elmers glue. She made slime with it. Lol.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Soon. There in the garage. I have to move them soon. Next 2 weeks, then I'll slap the table together. The kiddo atually seems excided to help make the scenery. So, that was a surprise. Any chance to play with glue i guess. I had 2 off the big bottles of elmers glue. She made slime with it. Lol.


Might be best to move them into the basement for several days to acclimate to that inside climate. Not sure if it'll make a big difference but may be critical. Perhaps others will advise from better knowledge/experience.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yup. You are 100 percent on that one mike. Lol. I still need to clean out a bit in the basement to see if I can get a full length board in without dismantiling the gas and ac. I can do it, but dont want to. Lol. Might end up with sistered beam that dosen't go end to end. But , i am still working on the layout design. Not happy, but think it will work.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also, think i need some more switches, lol. I have 8 on the old layout, probably 4 to 6 others, so that 12 to 14 , probably need 17 or so for this. I do have some manual ones, and that may be ok for some stuff. Wanted a yard, but no room. Thats what the manuals were being saved for. But I do have to go through some boxes still.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

ZOk went digging around my boxes a bit. I may have the switches, need to test what I have. Still xant find a bridge I wanted to use. But found the zw c. So , 4 zw, and a zw c, I think Inhave power covered. Lol. Got to be 12 switches in that box , some look good. I found another 2 in an old lionel box and I have the 2 072 switches. Plus some more that are manual. The fence I got years ago, metal and cool. Need to use that also.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so I think that sketch is a rough go. I have the room and it fits around my column. I left 2 feet of space on eaither wall. Problem now is , I want too many things. So , when it gets roughed in I am toying with all buildings on one edge of the board. So, not a realistic town, but sort of sudo town. It may be over the 2 foot space I have to walk down. Im skinny so it may work. This way, I can have all my coal , oil , farm, barrel, and other stuff on the layout also. Idea is to cram so much stuff on the layout , that works and lights up, that you will have no choice but to have fun. We will see.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh, and ed, your idea about a back shelf may be a great idea also, on the other wall.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so this is what I have for the 072 track. It was cheap years ago and has ware. Some is painted on the sides and has some balist stuck to it. But , after a 30 second scotchbrite pad on the top I think its worth using. Obviously, it will be checked, tightened, pins will be coated with electrical condution grease and oposite ends will be reamed with a wire pipe cleaner. I have a box of this stuff, so should be plenty. Still looking to get a windows computer for the scram.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also looking to add a coal ramp or coal station. Not sure what one. And does anyone know if the have the bubble tubes for the lionel water tower? Or oil derecks, the bigger ones. Say a colbler water tower with a broken tube for 12$ may buy it if I can find a tube or come up with an idea to light it up.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok ,best idea ever to polish the track up fast, scotchbrite on a palm sander. All that electric voltage going to work for you. This will speed things up , when I get to that point !


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

As long as the top of the rails is clean the track will work fine. I found it somewhat futile to remove all the tinplate to match the areas where is has rusted through. I reconditioned Super-O track by processing each piece in Evapo-rust. That left the worn through areas mostly back (carbon migration in the underlying steel). I used a stainless steel wire brush and it would not remove the remaining tinplating very quickly.

You may also want to check each piece for warping and rail distance. Then clean the final top with naphtha.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Well, went to dry fit a board, and then just put most of them in. The one with the electric on it is still there, but had no time to mess with it today. I may just partially suport it from the other side. Its not over the layout area, so it may wait. Or I may finish it up this weekend, if I dont get stuck at work. Otherwise , done.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Will it be bomb proof? 

All you need to do with the wires are un-tack them?? Or reroute them? Change some out?
Un-tack them is easy enough, then just re-tack them back?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, yea, they got to get disconected and moved. No time today, work tomorrow. And i usally like to start electrical / plumbing stuff when I have a few days off incase I disconect/ short out something important, like the fridge.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> Lol, yea, they got to get disconected and moved. No time today, work tomorrow. And i usally like to start electrical / plumbing stuff when I have a few days off incase I disconect/ short out something important, like the fridge.



Do it now. Don't leave loose ends. One of my wife's complaints, over the years, is that I always leave some small detail undone.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I here ya, I'll do the wires when I run some outlets over for the trains. Figure i have 1 spot open in the pannel, so I'll run 6 outlets and some lights. Not sure if i am going to just leave the outlets in the celling, or drop them down to floor level. Figure 2 outlets by the transformers. Then , maybe one off on each wall by the new layout. Then maybe 2 in the celling. And then lights. Should be fun......lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh, and mike, I suck at scram. Cant get it to work for anything. Lol.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Madman said:


> Do it now. Don't leave loose ends. One of my wife's complaints, over the years, is that I always leave some small detail undone.


I bought a 3 year old house in 1997. The prior owner added improvements but never finished in weird ways. The finished basement had tiles throughout. In one 10' x 10" corner you could see he was building a bar area with different tiles. That 10' x 10' floor section was covered in 99, count 'em, 99 one square foot tiles. The house also had an extra great room over the 2-car garage. Exactly 20' x 20'. He laid tiles, again, count 'em, 399 one square foot tiles. He tiled over the Formica kitchen counter tops. Lots of cutting and fitting ... an excuse to be one tile short? I could go on but you get the idea.

I think he had deep rooted psychological problems from childhood.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> I here ya, I'll do the wires when I run some outlets over for the trains. Figure i have 1 spot open in the pannel, so I'll run 6 outlets and some lights. Not sure if i am going to just leave the outlets in the celling, or drop them down to floor level. Figure 2 outlets by the transformers. Then , maybe one off on each wall by the new layout. Then maybe 2 in the celling. And then lights. Should be fun......lol.


Install twice as many outlets as you'll think you'll need. In a former house, I wired 4 duplex outlets (8 receptacles) next to my desk in the basement office. Never enough: the PC, monitor, PC speakers, WiFi router, desk lamp, fan and/or heater, soldering iron, vacuum, and on and on.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

OK here's what I got so far ...
We can alter after you review.

Some notes:

(1) The missing straights on the outer loop are standard 9" 5500s. But I reached the 100 track limit SCARM imposes with its free license. I had to delete something obvious.
2) The missing tracks on the inner loop are custom cuts. You need to shave a1/10" off the standard 9" straight for them to fit. There should be enough slop to use a standard straight at the top. Not sure if that will work between the switches
3) Obviously, the track count is missing those 4 pieces.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thank you mike, thats exactly what I needed to see. To get berings on what will fit and not. Perfect.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think this is going to work out real well. Next week ill stip the old layout , set up the boards, maybe on rollers, and i think I may service some zws.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> I think this is going to work out real well. Next week ill stip the old layout , set up the boards, maybe on rollers, and i think I may service some zws.


Just don't have any party's like this.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Big Ed said:


> Just don't have any party's like this.


He's already in the basement where the elevator only goes up


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Millstonemike said:


> He's already in the basement where the elevator only goes up


They say that they were all jumping down and landing at the same time to the music.  
Duh, did you have a good time? 
I think you would feel the floor moving before it collapsed?
Too many people, should have never been allowed in and stomping around.
Home owner at fault?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tomorrow i will rough in the electrical from the panel and maybe fix the last beam or 2. Need to see what I have for electrical stuff in the garage. After that it will be putting the table together and striping the old layout off the boards. So, i am thinking 4x4s legs this time around, and maybe rollers again? Just in case? The rollers on the old layout worked well. What do you guys think?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

A 12' x 10' platform on rollers? You'll need a lot of support and many more than 4 rollers. Lots of lumber and cost.

I found that the real challenge with legs is the connection to the platform. I used carriage bolts to connect the 2" x 4" legs on the inside corners of the plywood's 2" x 4" frame. Then I added small 45 deg angles (not pictured). I'd opted for stationary levelers on the bottom of the legs. Once the leg was up against the concrete floor, it wasn't going anywhere.

And building both the platform and legs from scratch, I hand picked the lumber at Home Depot for aesthetics. I used a palm sander before assembly and rubbed them with danish oil. And I painted the OSB sheets before final assembly into the frame (no edging, much easier). I just dropped them already painted. I had built the frame for that; cleaner edge and I gained 3" of width on the 4' x 8' sheets (I needed the extra 3" width). Then I pulled them to oil the frame.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I had z legs from 2x4s on the last one. It was a little dinky when I moved it. This will be 4x4s , 4 per sheet of plywood, so 12 legs and rollers. Bolted, as thats easy. And the tables will get bolted together as well. Like Ed said , build it bomb proof. Lol. Yea, heavy, but eaxh roller leg lever is said to hold 250 lbs. So , that should be good?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, rollers ordered. Did most of the rough wireing. Was a pita to find some stuff. So not what I wanted but good enough. Had most of the boxes and wire allready. Still have to power the line, I may tap an unused 220 outlet if I can find where it goes, otherwise its back to the panel. I ran a buch of outlets in the celling, and a few on the wall. They will all mostly be controlled by a switch. So, switch on, overhead lighting and transformers will go on. Switch off, layout off, a few outlets will still be powered. I like overhead outlets, nice for working or shop vacuum. Only problem was no 20 amp outlets, so went with 15 amp. Should be fine as its only the layout and some led shop lights. Oh, found another broken beam. Lol. I was walking under it and always looked to the side, never up. Untill I started on the electrical. Of course its on the side of the basement where everything is pilled, and has electrical lines through it. So, by next week should be finished.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

They should have never used that plank? 
Looks like it was a bad piece to use when they built the house?
If it is out of the way just add a 4x4 brace under it for now?
That is a big crack.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, thats why i sistered up the other ones, giant knots all spliting. Plus I think the beams are undersized for the span. I'll get it fixed Ed, no worries. If I cant, you are all invited to a rocken party at my house.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Planning on fixing up these soon. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so slow going the last few days, work kinda has to come first. I fixed up some of the zws, have to order some parts for others. Still trying for some 054 track, i may just bite the bullet and go with menards, but ot shows 3 crossties instead of the 5 with original lionel. Not a deal breaker, but...... I have a list for the table legs and bolts and such to finish the floor joists. Soon. Then its off to more planning and acquiring what I want. I think I have a good idea, and with mikes rough track plan I think it will work.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Big Ed said:


> Just don't have any party's like this.


It's called harmonic motion. The reason soldiers break cadence when marching over a bridge is to prevent such motion which could cause the bridge to collapse.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok so slow going the last few days, work kinda has to come first. I fixed up some of the zws, have to order some parts for others. Still trying for some 054 track, i may just bite the bullet and go with menards, but ot shows 3 crossties instead of the 5 with original lionel. Not a deal breaker, but...... I have a list for the table legs and bolts and such to finish the floor joists. Soon. Then its off to more planning and acquiring what I want. I think I have a good idea, and with mikes rough track plan I think it will work.


I never noticed the fewer ties when I was considering Menards track. It would be nice if you could buy blank ties from a mfg. and add them yourself. 

*USA Track* exclusively sells standard gauge and offers more ties at a higher price per track. A small niche business, would have been nice if he sold O gauge.








The track in my video is an O-27 mix of Lionel and Marx. The added ties started out as a 2' x 4' x 1/8" hardboard panel (HD ~$7). A production line of identical cuts on my small table saw and then the miter saw. I attached them to the underside of the rails using window caulk. They were just the right thickness. Sometimes its easy ... not very often, but sometimes


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Madman said:


> It's called harmonic motion. The reason soldiers break cadence when marching over a bridge is to prevent such motion which could cause the bridge to collapse.


That may have had an impact on it. But it probably was a myrid of factors. The compression load the joist is used to , was overloaded. This caused a higher deflextion in the joists. The shock loading compounded it. So when the joist couldn't take the weight it was built for it got transfered over to the next one. Untill the floor couldn't support the shock weight anymore. If it was a jump to the beat type of thing this whole process would speed up. My floor would fail fast under that senerio. Anyway, thats my simple explanation.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> I never noticed the fewer ties when I was considering Menards track. It would be nice if you could buy blank ties from a mfg. and add them yourself.
> 
> *USA Track* exclusively sells standard gauge and offers more ties at a higher price per track. A small niche business, would have been nice if he sold O gauge.
> View attachment 578887
> ...


I didn't notice they were hand made ties on my phone mike. Nice! They used to sell packs to put under the o track. I could also make my own. We will see, grandiose plans often give way to i want to finish it now syndrome.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

On previous layouts, way back in the 1980s, I inserted extra ties that I made from scrap wood. I even made ties from sheet rubber that was left over from a job I was working on. The rubber was just over a quarter inch thick, so it fit perfectly under the "O" gauge rails. 

I found that the extra ties enhanced the look of tubular track. However, on my present layout, I will not be installing extra ties. Since my layout is an operating accessory type of display, the extra ties are a PITA when it comes to relocating an accessory, for one reason or another.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I am atually considering the ties, i dont balist the track. Im not a purist. Last time I used a adhesive shingle starter strip, cut to fit under the track. I thought it looked fine. The ties may enhance that.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, I've been sick the last few days so little progress. But today , I thought I was feeling better, so I finished up the beams. And most of the wiring. Good news its done, bad news, i should have waited. Fever is in full swing now. Sitting and resting every half hour all day to finish it. Had to because the first thing I did was cut power to 3 lines. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Time for the age old what height should I make the table question. Thinking of like 35 inches, but can go higher. 35 would be an 4x4x8 cut in 3 and add about 3.5 inches for the table legs I got. Any bigger is more lumber, which is ok as I allready planned to cut them in half, but thought that may be too high. I usally sit when I run the trains.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

You'll get so many different answers it may not help. I'm 6'2" with gorilla arms. I went 33" to top of table and could reach most everywhere. Good for standing and sitting on a stool. Young 'uns would likely need a lower height.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I am taller mike. Lol. I dont kbow about the arms but i have gorilla hands. And all thumbs. Surprised i can even use tools.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> I am taller mike. Lol. I dont kbow about the arms but i have gorilla hands. And all thumbs. Surprised i can even use tools.





sjm9911 said:


> I am taller mike. Lol. I dont kbow about the arms but i have gorilla hands. And all thumbs. Surprised i can even use tools.


Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, my gorilla arms got an inch on Ali. They measured for intramural boxing in college.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I also bought the wrong breaker, i knew i would do that, just hope the one I have isnt the old style no one has. Im not close to the supply houses that have the really old crap.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Forgot to post that one. Lol. They had the corect breaker, all done. Temp lights are in and are brighter then I expected. Really not bad for harbor freight leds. Large electrical cord. Chains to hold them up are a bit dinky but they were 20 /25 bucks a pop for a plug in led single light fixture. Lights and end wall outlets are controlled from celling light switch. Some outlets are always powered some go off with the switch. I have 2 outlets in the celling next to a suport pole. I will drop a power strip down the polw later for voltage to the table. Zip tied to the pole of course. Not bad.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh and the breakers were 5.50 each. A set of blanks for the panels was 9 $ for 3 . So I got 2 breakers.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

"It's never easy."
2019, Louis Rosano

I replaced and upgraded my entire well water inside system while adding three different mega water softening filters. Ran 17, count 'em, 17 trips to Home Depot that weekend. "Oh, all my soldering resin is dried out.", back to Home Depot. "This is not a 1" valve.", back to Home Depot. Good thing gas was $1.19 at the time.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Forgot to post that one. Lol. They had the corect breaker, all done. Temp lights are in and are brighter then I expected. Really not bad for harbor freight leds. Large electrical cord. Chains to hold them up are a bit dinky but they were 20 /25 bucks a pop for a plug in led single light fixture. Lights and end wall outlets are controlled from celling light switch. Some outlets are always powered some go off with the switch. I have 2 outlets in the celling next to a suport pole. I will drop a power strip down the polw later for voltage to the table. Zip tied to the pole of course. Not bad.
> View attachment 579018
> View attachment 579019


Looking good. 
You tossing out those trains sitting there gathering dust? 😎
Table height? Whatever you are comfortable with?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I used these type screws for the framework. The smaller head is easy to set flush, no prior counter syncing required. And the thread design ensures the two pieces snug up tight.

But the best thing is the star drive (w/ included bit). A decent drill and these screws are a dream to use. No skipping, rounded bits or breaks.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I like the star screws or the hex heads that use the nut drivers. But I'm going large legs , and those rollers ( just because I can) so bolts it will be lol. This way , if I ever have to redue a water line or ac vents, if I cant move the table, I'll unbolt them and move them in sections. Im pretty happy with the roller legs also, seem to be heavy duty. Now I just have to remember to cut the track at the tables end, and maybe do 3 central bus bars. 1 per table. Good thing is I do have lots of leftover 16 guage ligting wire for conduet. Table legs we be done soon. Then ill strip off the old layout and lay down some track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> Looking good.
> You tossing out those trains sitting there gathering dust? 😎
> Table height? Whatever you are comfortable with?


Ed , i will use my new batter powered blower to un dust them! No problem. I am thinking about a shelf on the back wall, but that may come later. Its getting there.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Speaking of benchwork height, I went with 40". It makes it easier to work under the table, and I get a lot of storage possibilities as well.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so can not belive this price. Do the legacy systems usally go for 1k? If so, maybe ill sell mine , and the one legacy train I have . Big bucks.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, so can not belive this price. Do the legacy systems usally go for 1k? If so, maybe ill sell mine , and the one legacy train I have . Big bucks.


Right now with the discontinuation of the #990 set, they're going at a premium. It is tempting to sell one of my spares, but I never know when I might need it if I do. Note that the MTH TIU & Remote sets are also going for significant money.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok legs are cut at 40 inches. So say 43 to 45 total height of the table. Will put them on when I have energy.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Speaking of benchwork height, I went with 40". It makes it easier to work under the table, and I get a lot of storage possibilities as well.


Can you re-post a pic of your chair with the sliders for sjm9911's benefit?

In his basement he'll likely need rollers. I'd be hacking an old office chair down to size.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, ill probably just use a creeper. Im not fitting under there any other way. Then , will have my 2 chrome shelves cut to fit under it, if they dont. Large boxes and stuff will then be on doilies. With plywood on top so nothing sags. Yea ,mike i overthink everyrhing. I would like to see GRJ chair. Lol. Will collect bags of leaves from spring cleanup for some cheap ground cover, farm rocks from the back yard, and dirt and sand. I need to shave costs. Plus, i am thinking of selling the legacy stuff. I think the up is still in demand.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Anyone thoughts on this for wire? 








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Its cca. But at 14/2 I think should be more then adequate. Or shoyld I get the 16/2? Keep in mind I will feed with real copper standed wire. So , bus bars on each table.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Or all copper 16/2? 








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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Or all copper 16/2?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, I started the legs , and underestimated how easy it would be to flip the table. In hind site, I should have put the top on horses then attached the legs. But , i didnt. Lol. So, I need to wait untill I get some help. Legs are on, 2 bolts in each one. When its flipped, ill shim it out and re ajust the bolts and add a screw or 3rd bolt the other direction. Then it will be as ed said, bomb proof.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Solid 4 x 4s ! You do realize that your trains are miniatures.....LOL Seriously, it looks great.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

sjm9911 said:


> I would like to see GRJ chair. Lol. Will collect bags of leaves from spring cleanup for some cheap ground cover, farm rocks from the back yard, and dirt and sand. I need to shave costs. Plus, i am thinking of selling the legacy stuff. I think the up is still in demand.


Here you go.  This is "optimized" for use on carpet.  It ended up being the perfect height, my heat clears the bottom of the benchwork by a couple of inches. It makes it easy to do wiring under there without back strain or my arms falling asleep. The chair part was a leftover from a 1970's computer school classroom, we shared a space with the school to help us pay for our IBM mainframe. The school folded and we got a bunch of folding tables and these chairs, I still have a few to this day.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok tables are up. More work then needed with 1 person. Oh well, its done now. I used 2 metal saw horses, and my back , lol. Took about 3 hours. Now need to strip them of the previous layout, and then get on the build plan. They are higher then i wanted, but as GRJ said, better for storage. Will just need to pick up some bar stools. Wish I knew that as they had 30 of them at the thrift shop yesterday. That means I will not see them again untill I get expensive ones. Wire is on order, and I am waiting to order the 054 track from menards.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Lookin good. Soon there will be smoke. 
Are you going to make one big layout or 3 separate?
Back in the corner, can you add on back there? , looks like 30", last picture upper right. Make a 30x48" on wheels for the layout.
Or can the table be moved out any? All you need is around 20", pull it out? It would give you more room in the middle too.

I measured my height on the table, I am at 36 1/4 ". Exactly......😎


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Here you go.  This is "optimized" for use on carpet.  It ended up being the perfect height, my heat clears the bottom of the benchwork by a couple of inches. It makes it easy to do wiring under there without back strain or my arms falling asleep. The chair part was a leftover from a 1970's computer school classroom, we shared a space with the school to help us pay for our IBM mainframe. The school folded and we got a bunch of folding tables and these chairs, I still have a few to this day.
> 
> View attachment 579273
> 
> ...


Make a video of you sliding around under the table? 
You should had made it with a motor, and wheels, and had both forward and reverse with a hand remote.
You the electrician.  

Sell them here, I want a blue one. 
Or better yet any color, I can paint it. 😎


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I am going to fill that in Ed, so one big table. The wheels are nice, i may be able to move the whole thing in one peice. Got to see if I like it like this first. After I strip whats on top , I'll temp out some track plans.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big Ed said:


> Make a video of you sliding around under the table?
> You should had made it with a motor, and wheels, and had both forward and reverse with a hand remote.
> You the electrician.
> 
> ...


Alien Green!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> I am going to fill that in Ed, so one big table. The wheels are nice, i may be able to move the whole thing in one peice. Got to see if I like it like this first. After I strip whats on top , I'll temp out some track plans.


Plans?
Who needs plans?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Alien Green!


OOOOOooooooo Alien Green. 
Get some florescent lights and paint everything with glow in the dark paint.
That would be cool, add the Menards space ship and other things.
Paint all your accessory's glow in the dark. 

Go for it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I thought about getting the ufo and tank thing. But I have no ware to put the stuff i have. So it will have to be 1950s conventional stuff only. I have grand ideas, and a larger space. Just need more space, lol. Basement is a mess now. When the tables are set up with some electrical I will be able to store stuff under there. Then may go with some curtians for skirting. Who knows Ed.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Big Ed said:


> ... You should had made it with a motor, and wheels, and had both forward and reverse with a hand remote.
> ...


Time for JetGuy to chime in ...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Millstonemike said:


> Time for JetGuy to chime in ...


He's working on it. 
Do it with an air pump to float you around on jets of air, remote controlled.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Was able to pick up the barstools. There nicer then I thought. Originally, I was going to paint them, but I like them as they are. 2 diffrent styles, but at least they are sturdy. All 4 for 38 bucks total. Not bad.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Don't ever go back to the thought of painting them. Prepping them for painting (good adhesion) will be a nightmare. A furniture pencil in the correct shade will do wonders cleaning up the nicks and scratches. A few bucks (HD, et. al.) and a few minutes work. I use one all the time on my wood desk. There's also some liquid wipe on products. But I haven't used any of those to elaborate.

I found a similar deal for the prior layout. Alas, left them behind in the move as I resigned to a seasonal layout.

If any of the legs are loose/wobbly use wood glue to shore them up. Plain Elmer's works just as well. If they're bolted together (as mine were), remove the leg, make sure the mating surfaces are bare wood, a little sanding to open wood pores helps. Apply wood glue to both surfaces, let is soak in for 10 minutes and reassemble. In soft woods, the glue joint is stronger than the wood. Not sure if that's true for the hardwoods.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , my terminal strips came. I got 24 of these. Lol. Idea is for each table to have a feed. So, main wire from transformer to middle table, then another feed wire to the other 2 tables. So each table will be able to be unbolted and moved easily, with just unscrewing the terminals. Just in case. So each table will have , 1 terminal for each of the following:
Tracks (3 terminals, 1 per track)
Lights ( 1)
Accessories (1)
Switches/ operating track (1)
Ground (1)
I may add one more for sidings. So I can park and operate stuff if needed. That would add up to the 24 terminals. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> Don't ever go back to the thought of painting them. Prepping them for painting (good adhesion) will be a nightmare. A furniture pencil in the correct shade will do wonders cleaning up the nicks and scratches. A few bucks (HD, et. al.) and a few minutes work. I use one all the time on my wood desk. There's also some liquid wipe on products. But I haven't used any of those to elaborate.
> 
> I found a similar deal for the prior layout. Alas, left them behind in the move as I resigned to a seasonal layout.
> 
> If any of the legs are loose/wobbly use wood glue to shore them up. Plain Elmer's works just as well. If they're bolted together (as mine were), remove the leg, make sure the mating surfaces are bare wood, a little sanding to open wood pores helps. Apply wood glue to both surfaces, let is soak in for 10 minutes and reassemble. In soft woods, the glue joint is stronger than the wood. Not sure if that's true for the hardwoods.


I agree mike, while I can paint them, its more work then needed. The liquid stain for the scratches works well. I would just fill it with antiquing stain, then wax it with butchers wax. Done and easy. The chairs are pretty solid, no wobble or anything. I was really surpised. And the grain on them is cool also. Wondering if I shoyld fet more, and add a bar to the basement!


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I suggest you get your track laid and than open the bar. 

Magic


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so i stripped the tables down a bit. And thinking the set up should be something like this. I will play around with it and move some stuff around, also find my spare track boxes. I may try to run both outside loops with 072, i have it? And then the inside 048 or 54. If there is room that is.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, so i stripped the tables down a bit. And thinking the set up should be something like this. I will play around with it and move some stuff around, also find my spare track boxes. I may try to run both outside loops with 072, i have it? And then the inside 048 or 54. If there is room that is.
> View attachment 579578
> View attachment 579579
> View attachment 579580


Looking great, especially the wiring.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, haven't ripped the old stuff out yet. Also learned that cat litter looks great for rocks and stuff but will not come off the layout at all. Some of the stuff was hard to disasemble. And the track got glued to the roofing material I used for balist. So after unscrewing it , I had to pry it up.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And better news is I xan read the voltages that the acceories work at. The wires on the side of the table once had buttons, switches. That I cant find. Lol.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Lol, haven't ripped the old stuff out yet. Also learned that cat litter looks great for rocks and stuff but will not come off the layout at all. Some of the stuff was hard to disasemble. And the track got glued to the roofing material I used for balist. So after unscrewing it , I had to pry it up.


You try spraying a little water on it? The cat litter?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

No, not yet. Probably a better idea then finding the belt sander!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so ot looks like the 072 can go on the outside loops. Then maybe I can get an 048 with the 032 on the inside loops. I also found some old longer strights. I d














ont remember they existed.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I like the roof shingles ballast idea. Seems like it would be easy to place and then cut after the track is laid on it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok. So just bought some supplies. Got the balist ( asphalt shingle starter strip) , tons of scotch brite pads for the track, 2 gallons of white glue, some spray paint. And some long 30 inch track peices. The track laying will start next week I think. Need to find what I have in boxes so I don't buy stuff I allready have. Working next 3 days stright. So that may put a damper on stuff.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok. So just bought some supplies. Got the balist ( asphalt shingle starter strip) , tons of scotch brite pads for the track, 2 gallons of white glue, some spray paint. And some long 30 inch track peices. The track laying will start next week I think. Need to find what I have in boxes so I don't buy stuff I allready have. Working next 3 days stright. So that may put a damper on stuff.


2 gals of glue? 
Maybe a 55 gal drum would be better.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, this is my second purchase of glue for this project. The first 2 gallons went to making slime. Plus , I glued everything last time. Worked out pretty good. Leaves, dirt, trees, the foam.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

_"Rome wasn't built in a day."_

12th-century cleric in the court of Phillippe of Alsace, the Count of Flanders


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

But I have only 2 months before camping season is in high gear.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so I cleaned up the 072 track and the longer strights. I used a palm sander with a scotch brite pad. It worked well. Track should be usable. I need to find my box with the extra pins! Lol. 

I also bolted the tables together. All 3 roll together smoothly. I ripped out the old wiring, and am deciding if its just easier to get a few new sheets of foam and go right over the old layout stuff. This is what im leaning to. I still need to add the corner section, but I have thr old table legs to cut up for the frame and some plywood in the garage. So table should be up and ready to go after this weekend. Almost rady to start laying track and testing switches.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok new idea, same layout for the track. I am thinking of having the outside loop go high, and have a town behind it, and loop next to it go low, under that track. Entering a rock face with a tunnel. The back side would be open, and the train would disapear into the rock face and come out the other side. I have it in my mind, but cannot put it on paper. When I get closer to laying the track ill shoot some pictures. This could be brilliant or an utter failure. Who knows. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Crude 2 second drawing. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

So , if I go for the tunnles, I have to use these. Lol. While not expensive, they are the original hillside tunnels. So they are cool and nostalgic.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Im thinking like this , but on top of a mountain.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so the under over plan with tunnel isnt going to happen. It would take up way more real estate then I want to give it. So plan k it is. My pre plan. Outside track will rise up to the town. Road in-between the track and the town. A small road, lol. Just enough. Its in the backround so it should work. Worse comes to worse I can use smaller cars. Breaks in the buildings will be roads ending off the layout. My mth firehouse will probably go in the left hand corner. Who knows. Too much stuff and no room. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Here is the latest plan. Lol. Its doable. Its not leveled , or tacked down. This was a test run to see if I like the idea. Feedback, good and bad please.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I like the idea of having one end elevated. The second picture shows a hole in the elevation. An idea is have a hidden siding by using a switch. If the room is there to do it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I may have room back there, for a small siding Didn't even think of that. Was so caught up with the linner town and a tunnel, this is like the 6th version, that I loose sight on the whole picture.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I can get a 4 peice of stright track back there. Lol. If I use 072 switches , I may even be able to connect it on both sides. Now to look for more switches.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so sorted through my plastiville stuff. And have 2 bases I have no idea what they go to. I will use a few of these scattered around the layout. And definitely the barn.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

Those bases look like Pola large scale bases. How big are they ?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

About the size of a large house or station, 0 scale, not the plasticville size. Both are labled lionel. Not sure if they go with something else I have or they gonwith some of the parts layed on the table. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so I found what the bases go to. The last one qith the ramps is the lionel rico station, and the other one is just a house. So mystery solved.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And , a little more progress. I tacked the back wood peirs I made down, covered all the old layout foam with new foam, and started to make the grades with more foam. Ed, I used almost gallon of glue so far , lol. Kido used the other one for slime, so, I had to order more. Of course its like 4 $ more a gallon now. Bridges will span the gap around the lolly column. That will be last when I move the layout to its final resting position.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Getting closer to adding the next level of foam. Maybe tomorrow will glue more down. I wanted to use some of the lionel graduated trestle set, but I cant seem to find them. I did find my 3 (180) bricks. So more power I dont really need.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The layout may be bridge heavy. Idk, some stuff isnt fitting as well as I wanted it to. So , i will shift somethings, or just put on less stuff.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And another question. What about hot glue to lay down the track? I bought black glue, so hope is it looks tar like. Im not worried about melting the foam as it will be applied to the asphalt shingles I will use as fast balisting. Its not going to look realistic, but will be good enough for me. The glue shoyld hold it right?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so glueing, revising, glueing , more revising. I think I finally have a track plan! So somethibg like this. What do you think. I put some accessories on the board for perspective. Thats kinda how I want them. Obviously, the town would go up higher in the back round, and the other 2 tracks would be compleatly layed out. I still need to transition the two outer loops with switches, ill work on that when the last round of glue sets up. It may not be feasible the way I have it set up curently. Its not a deal breaker. I will not have the outside loops switch into the inside. The cruves are too tight. Its good as it is inside. Lots of things that make noise and move and light up.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have any pictures? 
Need a lift bridge in the middle, an operating lift bridge.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea, i was thinking that also ed. But there are three lines spanning the gap. I may just make a section that I can manually take out if needed. The lines will be around or behind a lolly coloum. So, if I have to move the layout to work on the ac duct, they have to be removable. Or , I can do it permanent, and just cut the rails if needed. I haven't decided yet. Nor have I decided on the bridges. But we need bridges ed, lots of them. Its getting there. And im happy so far. Not exactly what I had envisioned, but close enough for goverrment work.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

In the back you have the red bridge, but no room for water?
I was told years ago that is a no no. 
Put that one in the center on a hinge?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The red bridge is getting a brother. The span is pretty big there. Water , may go under it. And the track in the back ed, you never know. I have about an inch of foam underneath the tracks, so that can be cut for a small brook. I also need some sort of road. Maybe gravel or stone. Maybe some paved. The town up above will have a paved road. It will probably end off the layout.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

I spy with my little eye a couple places where there could be trouble. The Conveyer Log ramp and Sawmill may be too close to curved track. When a locomotive, particularly a diesel rounds those curves, it may hit the log ramp or sawmill.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Madman said:


> I spy with my little eye a couple places where there could be trouble. The Conveyer Log ramp and Sawmill may be too close to curved track. When a locomotive, particularly a diesel rounds those curves, it may hit the log ramp or sawmill.


Good point. Seems to be some room to move the track back a bit.

Others mentioned grades should be contained along the straight sections leaving the curves level. That seems like prudent advice for the curves cresting behind the log loader.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Madman said:


> I spy with my little eye a couple places where there could be trouble. The Conveyer Log ramp and Sawmill may be too close to curved track. When a locomotive, particularly a diesel rounds those curves, it may hit the log ramp or sawmill.


I got room , track isnt layed down at all, or really pushed in. Just for ideas and where to put the operating tracks. It would hit where it is. But i can cheat it back like an inch. I wanted them on the outside, but the grades did that in. Unfortunately, i want everything, and tbh dont have the room for it all.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> ... Unfortunately, i want everything, and tbh dont have the room for it all.


Just like being 10 years old. Isn't this hobby great


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> Good point. Seems to be some room to move the track back a bit.
> 
> Others mentioned grades should be contained along the straight sections leaving the curves level. That seems like prudent advice for the curves cresting behind the log loader.


That one will be trickier. Lol. It will make it. Last layout was downgrade on the curve, and i will cheat that a bit also. Cut a bit out on the platform before the curve, and it should be a bit better. Thats the problem with this, its kinda trial and error, if it doesn't work, or fails, I will just raise up the whole track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Its also sagging because there is no suport, or real puns in the track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> Just like being 10 years old. Isn't this hobby great


I have so much more stuff for the layout. This is minimal , I think. Next problem is there are a ton of ucs tracks. Lol. It will work, I hope. Lots of wires. The switching between tracks may not make it. I tried, and maybe have one area from outside to middle loop. 

Next idea, is how to do the tunnels, and the wall behind the log loader, originally was going to be mountain, now maybe going with just concrete. Then retaining walls then mountain/rocks around the tunnel. May use spray foam to speed it up. Not ideal, but if I do ot right can be good.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Kinda like this concreate. It was build in like 1902 or something like that. So , maybe? Not my pic, ignore the fire truck.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And i appreciate all comments, o will scew the pooch at some point. No doubts in that. Lol.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> View attachment 581169
> 
> Kinda like this concreate. It was build in like 1902 or something like that. So , maybe? Not my pic, ignore the fire truck.


Concrete may not be easier than mountains. Seems to be more precise modeling. I think the trick to mountains is the final shaping and, more importantly, the painting. Seems good for foam. And paint can be applied many times until you're satisfied. Search "Making O-Scale Mountain Scenery" on Youtube. Lots of hits, lots of techniques, lots of options ... in your spare time when you need a break from driving spikes into the ties  

Familiar with the Newark Bears?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yup, used to go see them before the bulldozed the place mike. Was only a few stops down the train line. Maybe 3. For the concreate, I was going to use concreate. Im better at building then painting.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

So , portals are done. Sort of, just need to tool up the spray foam when it dries. Then paint it, then make it into something that dosen't look alien.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Picked this up at the LHS for 10$. I was happy as it matched the one I had, they said they thought it was marx, but I knew better. Its sister bridge without the light is marked, and its cobler. So, good day today. And I cut the grass.........


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Do what makes you happy… Or be miserable.
That’s the only real choice in life.

That’s your fortune cookie for today.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so i need bridge peirs. Was goint to by something and cut to fit or use a tressal set. But then I said lets make them. So, i tried this idea out. I think its not bad. Remember this is a fast trial, and not a finished peir. The finished ones will be bigger and have a flattened bottem. So here we go. 
Wood burner pen thing. And wood. And paint. Paint first and then burn in the lines of the stone. This one I burned first , then painted then burned again. Fron a distance its good, up close , you can see the lines where I wasn't able to follow them. What do you think?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I think grout lines will be easiest using a knife blade and square. Then a fine piont Sharpie pen. 

Much harder to do a trapezoidal pier


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Before you try to burn it out, score in some guide lines to follow with the burner pen. Otherwise the pen will move around.
And like Mike said use a straight edge of a square to follow while you burn.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

We will see when I atually do one for real. This was just a test. And it will not be trapezoidal. No time for that! Lol.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

It might be easier 5o used foam core board laminated onto a wood core. 
I’ve seen people build structures a similar way, carving all sorts of patterns into the foam, from rough stone, to stacked slate retaining walls, to unique art deco brick work.
You do have to keep pieces submerged for 24 hours in order to remove the paper first.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Im not that creative , lol. The foam board is probably better, but I will give this wood thing another go. We will see , results if I ever get out of work. I need to try the blades also, maybe a finer line, and yea, the above picture is just freehand after 0 sleep. I eill use a tri square, and maybe reading glasses to see what Im doing. If its a epic fail, im out nothing as its scrap in the garage. I have some time as my other bridge is in the mail, and some other stuff I may use for the cement wall.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Im not that creative , lol. The foam board is probably better, but I will give this wood thing another go. We will see , results if I ever get out of work. I need to try the blades also, maybe a finer line, and yea, the above picture is just freehand after 0 sleep. I eill use a tri square, and maybe reading glasses to see what Im doing. If its a epic fail, im out nothing as its scrap in the garage. I have some time as my other bridge is in the mail, and some other stuff I may use for the cement wall.


I have a few pairs of reading glasses that are much higher values than I need. I use them for detailed work - easy magnifiers.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I just need readers mike, but im not able to get used to them , so its a new thing for me. So , i relise afterwords that yea, I should ware them. Lol.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I never needed reading glasses, just contacts for distance. But I needed to have cataract surgery this January. The fixed power lens implants gave me 20/25 vision (from like 20/800). But they don't allow the eye to focus close. So +1.5 or so for reading. But I always had a few pairs of +3 lens for detail work. Using them is similar to using magnifiers but way more convenient, see the pic. A buck at the dollar store. Great investment. I recommend you try it. Also, light. I always use a small desk lamp for detail work. As we age, the eyes lose some ability to see well in low light conditions.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

I had perfect vision until around forty. I mean I could see both near and far without glasses. Even do the tiniest detail work with the naked eye. Then I started needing reading glasses. By my fifties I needed bifocals. In my sixties I had cataract surgery. Now, approaching seventy-five, I find I need glasses for distance, just to make things a bit more clear. 

And Mike is correct about low light.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea, im just 48, and this year its hard to see up close. I have to give into the age thing and that I need reading glasses. Had an eye exam for like the first time in January. Lol. Got a pair of glasses that do absolutely nothing, i think they just said I needed this and that to make money. But I do need the reading glasses. Or should use them. I just haven't come terms that I atually need them. At work last night I had to hand a smoke detector to someone else to read the date on the back after staring at it for 5 minutes and not being able to read anything.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

And the print on instruction booklets is meant for microscopic people to read.....LOL


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh, and for anyone else reading this, check the dates on your smoke and COs , there CO detector did not go off. Luckily they smelled something and called us. Had levels of like 64 PPM. Alarm is supost to trigger at like 30-35 and again at like 60. If it kept building up inside it would not have eneded well. Smokes last lime 10 years, co 7 to 8 years. Will be a end of life date on the back. Worth the money if you ever need it.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Yea, im just 48, and this year its hard to see up close. I have to give into the age thing and that I need reading glasses. Had an eye exam for like the first time in January. Lol. Got a pair of glasses that do absolutely nothing, i think they just said I needed this and that to make money. But I do need the reading glasses. Or should use them. I just haven't come terms that I atually need them. At work last night I had to hand a smoke detector to someone else to read the date on the back after staring at it for 5 minutes and not being able to read anything.


Unlike glasses for distance, reading glasses do not need to be very specific, just the minimum magnification, or more. Knowing myself, I break/lose/trash eyeglasses on a weekly basis and I won't hang them around my neck. So, off to the dollar store for several pairs. A few in my desk draw, one in the car, a few in the tool chest, and one in my bicycle pack (I ride to local store for exercise). If I need a pair, they're always handy.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I have four pair of readers in the train room (big layout) and one pair
in every other room but the bedroom. None in the bathroom, just keep a mop handy. 
A pair in each car.

Magic


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so I might just wrap the wood with this. Easier for me, lol. I like easy.








Not perfect, but should be good enough. I can make realistic peirs, but right now its more important to get building. So something has to give.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

That's what I'm talking about, EASY.....


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

And you can make other structures with consistent construction by using the same material - (ex., a stone bridge to go with the trestles).


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so cement back wall thing is out. I went with a rock wall. Started with some black and yellow for accents, but may need to redue it a bit darker. Yes, it looks road runner esk. But it dosen't look bad. So, I may re accent it, with a darker black, less watery. Or just spray it with a darker paint for some depth. When I add some moss and stuff it will be acceptable. The great stuff on the sides will be shapped a bit and made to be more like green or brown hills. Or ill match the road runner theam and just stack rocks, lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , went back down and hit it from a distance with some black spray paint. Let it drift down for accents. I think its much better now.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so what does everyone think of this? Not great, but was a way to get some town buildings in. I like it. Not exactly what I wanted, but when its glued down, and populated, it will look good from a distance. Thats why I didnt bother much with the road, you don't really see it. Buildings and the board in the back are removable. Fence and road is stationary. This way I xan wire and work on the tracks underneath. I may or may not loose the second sidewalk, but for now its holding the fence up. Firehouse will go on the right of the layout. And on the left, I may build upwards and place a water tower, billboard, and maybe a scenic overlook. But that stuff can be added later. As soon as the hills are done, I will start on the 2 outside loops. Wish I had more 072 switches, but right now they are $$$$. So , I may leave some stuff unfinished as I look for cheap parts.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

*Rule 8 - It's my railroad and I will do what I like*. I like it. I'm on the same page as you. I have a post-war type layout, which to me means that scenery and structures are more of a caricature, than trying to replicate the real thing. I like running trains and have plenty of operating accessories. 

I have been toying with the idea of building a large scale diorama/switching layout. I've been in the large scale portion of our hobby since 1990. I have plenty of locos and rolling stock, of the field railway type that lends itself well to those highly detailed, backwoods type of railways.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I agree, I thought it was a neat idea. Just took me forever to make it work. One train will run on the shelf just in front of the town, the other will go in the tunnel under it. And thanks to T Man, I will put in a hidden siding. I wanted to fit in a station, with stairs or a tunnel from the town to the track. But I still can not figure it out with the room I have. So, you cant have everything you want. But good enough is good enough. For me its like a Picasso, for other with skill its blah. But, eaither way, it will be fun. Cant wait untill I run the track and hook up all the wiring for the stuff I have. Should be a long build, but , estimated finish time x mass. Lol.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I think it looks very good. Some cars, some people and some greenery and your approaching first class scenery  

The diner does seem a little out of place within the town itself.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It does, but tbh , look up 1 union place summit nj. The summit dinner. Do the street veiw. Almost the same. But i do get what your saying, i think if i move the 3 story to the middle and then a 2 story near it, it may look better. Or turn it, and have it on a corner, maybe across the street. Its not set yet. And my 10 yo is going to paint the second bakery to be an ice cream shop, so whatever that will be , we be. Lol. It will probably turn out better then what I do!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so started the tunnels. Lol. It needs work, paint, grass etc. I put some stuff on to see qhat it looked like. Like the stones, makes it look like an old concrete sidewalk. So those will get painted. Just trying ideas out. Good enough, we will see how it dries.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so , hit it with some black spray paint. It blended in very nice.














Its still very wet. Work for the next 2 days , so we will see what happens after that


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Coming along nicely. 
Is that your water meter back there on the side?
What diner is that one? 
Did you post that years ago?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, yup , the dreaded water meter. All good, the table wheels nicely. So, I can move it if needed. Thats the one fron earlier in this thread I think. It may or may not make it in the final town. After the scenery dries, I can start laying the out side loops. Should be fun. And , I may have a surpise for T man and his sidding idea under the town. Stay tuned!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so mountians need to dry a bit more. So, my next idea....lol. all ideas, and no results. Baised on T man saying I vould get a spur under the town, I may have room for 2 072 switches and another line. If I had vommand controll or more room I wanted to do 2 opposing trains , parking one while the other made the loop, then the next one starting. I can do this manually, but it would ve harder as I would need lights and signals to tell me whats where under the town. So this idea is scrapped. What I may do , os run 2 trains the same direction. So one enters the tunnel, and stops on one track and the other train starts and comes out the other side. I need to work out the details for automatic switching. So , I am toying with some insulated tracks. When one train hits the sidding it stops on a non powered track. When the next train pulls in, it powers that track starting it off. Then the train that pulls in hits it non powered onsulated track stoping it. I may use the switches to power the track, or a seprate insulated track at the beginning of each line. Ill play with it this week. Just can not remember stopping distances and how the switches would power the track. It can ve done old school, and i will try it. depending on the room. Unfortunately, I only have one set of switches, so this will cut out the switching between tracks untill I find more cheap 072 switches.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Quick crude drawing. Lol. Train a hits insulated track section 3, and powers both ITS1, and ITS2. Train B leaves the tunnel and uses the auto derailment feature on switch 2 ( S2). This controlls S1 and rotates the tracks from front to back. Wash rinse and repeat.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so just looked at the quick diagram after getting back from the supermarket. Who can see the easier way to do this, lol. Sometimes I make things too complicated!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

It is very simple as is. Much will depend on the train(s)'s length and speed(s).

You may want to add a twin isolated outside rail just after ITS3 to stop that oncoming train. And add a single isolate rail after S2 (connected to that twin isolated rail) to start the oncoming train after the second train has cleared the tunnel/bridge.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yup, but I dont need to do it on both tracks, the same thing can be done on one track. No need for the extra wires. And if I can get both tracks in there , I could run one train and bypass the stop tracks. In the other direction of course.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Mountains tunnel things are still drying, lol. So , I am waiting. Next step is to lay the outer loop and glue down the town fence. The sidewalk on the fence side has been scrapped also I think. I forgot my street lights need some realestate also. So, outer loop, and then the town. Then the middle loop. Do some scenery, and finally get to the inner loop with all the acessories. I need to figure out what i am putting in the outer loops so I can add the insulated tracks, and or USC tracks. Problem is , I have too many little things and forgot to place them before building. I left out the signals and gates and such. Ill know more this week.


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## moranb2864 (Dec 9, 2021)

Keep chugging away. As you know, taking a week off turns into more weeks off. I am not going to let that happen.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok fence is glued down , and the lights are in. I drilled them and used leds as the wires were shot. Just easier. They flicker a bit, but they are gaslights. Outer track this week or week end, then the town. Then maybe some scenery, to get an idea of what it will look like.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And just realized, that of my 2 glue guns, they both suck. One is hi low temp, and is always on like a low temp ,making it hard to advance the glue stick in the gun. The other one has only one setting, lava. The glue comes out bubbling and smoking, and while I cant conferm it, its the same tempature as lava. Both are arrow glue guns. So be careful out there.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok fence is glued down , and the lights are in. I drilled them and used leds as the wires were shot. Just easier. They flicker a bit, but they are gaslights. Outer track this week or week end, then the town. Then maybe some scenery, to get an idea of what it will look like.
> View attachment 582344


They flicker because the LEDs are diodes. They are cutting have the 60 HZ AC sine wave. If you want to correct that I suggest fronting all the lamps' feed with a single AC-DC voltage regulator (i.e., one regulator will feed all the lamps - a couple of bucks). You can adjust the brightness with the regulator's on board trim resistor But ... you'll have to be cognizant of polarity between the regulator and the liaps.. Reverse polarity won't damage the LEDs but they won't light so trial and error is okay to get the connections right.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I wired them all the same, i hope they had there wires on right! Lol. Its ok though mike, gaslamps flicker, and they look like gaslamps to me. So , I did something wrong, and it turned out right.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> I wired them all the same, i hope they had there wires on right! Lol. Its ok though mike, gaslamps flicker, and they look like gaslamps to me. So , I did something wrong, and it turned out right.


Yeah, realistic for gas lamps. On my holiday Santa layout, The LEDs in the tower lighting had to be fronted by a regulator. Santa's loading station keeping up with modern times ...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I figure they will bother me about the time I'm mostly finished, easy enough to add it in afterwards, or rip everything out! Lol. Right now , just happy to have something working. Lower outside track next. Need to make some insulated tracks, or find where I mixed them into the regular track.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> I figure they will bother me about the time I'm mostly finished, easy enough to add it in afterwards, or rip everything out! Lol. Right now , just happy to have something working. Lower outside track next. Need to make some insulated tracks, or find where I mixed them into the regular track.


They make flickering LEDs to simulate candle light


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Why would I make it easy on myself. Tbh, with the globe off it looks constant. It may be the way they cast the globe, heavy on one side or with pigment in it. Or it could just be dirt. Lol. I have the outside rail track temped in, now just need to cut my fast road bed , and see what I want on the outside rail. I may need your help mike, electrical stuff i can do , as long as its 1950s. I may want to make some of the stuff work with modren electronics. Like a wig wag. I van wire it and cut track or use the brass overlay method. But , i think modren is better for that.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And you know, your only 30 mins west of me right?


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> And just realized, that of my 2 glue guns, they both suck. One is hi low temp, and is always on like a low temp ,making it hard to advance the glue stick in the gun. The other one has only one setting, lava. The glue comes out bubbling and smoking, and while I cant conferm it, its the same tempature as lava. Both are arrow glue guns. So be careful out there.


I am not thrilled with Arrow glue guns. I purchased one a couple months ago. In a word, it SUCKS. The glue constantly drips from the nozzle while I have the gun sitting. 

I have had one of these for many years and it still performs perfectly.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PGDLHBQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A219279FKWUHLW&psc=1



I purchased the Arrow because the other gun is made in China. So much for brand name products. Arrow should stick to what they know best, staple guns.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> And you know, your only 30 mins west of me right?


You on a boat? I'm 20 minutes West of the Atlantic


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol ,closer then. I just looked up millstone. You may be a little north or south.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Lol ,closer then. I just looked up millstone. You may be a little north or south.


Moved from Millstone many years ago. In Tom's River now West of the bay.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh, lol. So your like 30 mins south of me.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so not much in progress, soon. Thinking about my impending forced retirement. So, after thats all figured out, will start something this weekend.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, so not much in progress, soon. Thinking about my impending forced retirement. So, after thats all figured out, will start something this weekend.



Accentuate the positive. Eliminate the negative.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lol, all negative, nothing good will come of this. But , its ok. I am prepared. I think.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I was able to get my extension built on one end of my horseshoe to allow an O72 ++ turn on that end. Next step in laying down - not fastening down - my Atlas and Gargraves track and bridges to get close to what will work.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice. It takes time. But it is qorth it in the end!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so not much done. Spackled out the transition peices for the outside rail. No plaster, or it would have been dry allready. I'll shoot some paint on them after they dry. Its just so the grades look better. 

I fixed the second bakery. Well, fixed it enough. It will be far in the backround, so good enough. 

I made some sidewalks out of cut plywood and tryed to match the color to the lionel buildings. Later, I'll pencil mark the joints. 

And I cut up some of my quick road bed. Good , enough. Like I said , I am shooting for an ok, toy layout. To me its getting there. 

I have also been pondering the block signals, semaphores and insulated tracks on the one side. Need to plan out what will go where and what will be the activation switches. Still not compleatly shure. Still waiting on the brick stick on paper stuff to come in from China, lol. Delays, delays , delays......


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so this is my fast road bed. Same as I did last time. Good enough for me. Self adheasive roofing starter strip, c







ut to fit.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Sidewalk and the ice cream store came out great. Well the ice cream store did. Sidewalk is good enough for somethibg that is basicly not sceen unless you walk around from the veiwing area. A few dollor store stickers and a flag made a ton of diffrence.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , so about to lay track. Some 9f the old stuff has a glue on it from the PO. I cant belive its still sticky. So, this may be a problem. I cleaned up a bunch of the 0 72 curves, but some still have residue on the sides of the rails. I may try them out. But , I may just buy some menards track. I don't know If I want to chance the stickness transfering to the wheels of the trains. So, decisions, decisions..........


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And the track in question, lol. You can see the tops are shiny. But if I run may finger down the sides of some , the glue stops it. Not smooth. Is it under the part of the rail that the wheels don't hit is the question. And some of the rails are worn through. I can cut off those peices and make a few good tracks with them. So, 4 tracks will make 3 good


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Interesting. You probably know this but the only place of contact is on the inside. I would just remove the glue using steel wool. If the glue is on the outside, I don't think it would matter.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Made some insulated track sections, so ready to lay the track soon. So with tublar 0 track they are simple to make. Small flad head screwdriver, hammer, needlenose pliers and some cut tar paper as I dont have fish paper on hand. Flip the o track over so the bottom is facing up. Take the small screwdriver and position it over the open spot where the tab is on the other side. Hit screwdriver with the hammer to open the tab. Repeat on one rail. Bend the cut tar paper around the rail. Place the tar paper in the open slot. Put rail over the shapped paper. Bend tabs together with the needle nose pliers. Take screwdriver and place it in the factory press grove. Bang it with the hammer to tighten it up. Done. Easy, and takes only a few minutes per peice. I had a thread on it years ago, with pictures. But its easy to do, and works. I will teim up mu tar paper with a razor knife on install. I find its easier for me to cut it afterwords then line it up perfectly at the beginning. Thats only because I didnt have on my readers.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so just an heads up. The curved sections that I made the insulated track did not work. So, eaither I hit them too hard with the hammer, or they have sharper tie holders then the stright track. When making a layout, always, always, test stuff before putting it in permanently. Lucky, I am testing all peices before installing for continuity with a cheapo harbor freight multi meter. And I am not geat with multi meters, its easy to do. So, check your ceter rail vs the outside rails with the multi meter and you should get a 1. That means they are not conected. If you get a 0 they are conected and voltage will flow through them. My insulated rails, were reading 0 when trst vs each other. This meant there was a conection from the rail to the metal. So, its fixed now. But test all your track before laying it down. That will prevent problems later.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have used elecrical tape with two layers. You are correct about using the meter. A simple bulb circuit works too.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

T-Man said:


> I have used elecrical tape with two layers. You are correct about using the meter. A simple bulb circuit works too.


My first insulated rails used vinyl tape. They failed shortly after reassembly. Switched to card stock and never had a problem since. Sometimes simple is best.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

After looking it over again, the older 072 tracks have some beefy tie downs. No where near as thin as the newer track. And they are crimped well. So, probably a combo of too much force and the stuff it was made out of that nessassitated more force to be used.

Almost ready to lay the outer track. Still deciding on what will go ware. Probably have it done tomorrow. At lest in a mock up.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok this is where i am at. The strights off the 072s need to be cleaned and tested. But the other track is kinda down, I'll tack it tomorrow. Everything will get tested before final glue down. I couldn't fit a second conection under the town. Even with cutting an 022 switch to a snub nose switch. So we have a siding. Good enough. I have a block section under the town. Hopefully i can get it controlled corectly. I cant find my 154 c connector, but i may have a work around. Worst case, is it just gets a power feed and I cant do the dule trains. Speaking of duel trains. The block should work, and I will install a by pass, thats where the spur will come in, to park one of the two trains on the outer loop, if I feel like running one there. So, not bad. I did find a jar of track pins and some old envelopes of insulating pins, sad to open them but in a storm any port will do. There are also my insulated track sections to controll crossings, a block signal, a gate and maybe a semaphore. So I know if my block section has been breached. Lots of wiring. The 072 straight track look great, who said 3 rail tinplate can't look good. Lol. For me its perfect. Both outer rails will get the older track, and the inside loops will get the newer stuff, as it mates better and will look fine. Tomorrow, I hope to get a test run in. Then , I'll finish the town and start the next loop. Oh, i need a small peice of foam board to build up under the town, forgot about that. Too much of a slope for no reason.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, tacked it down. Not the correct scews, lol. Couldn't finish the loop because I forgot another slope that needed spackle. I used 2 peices of reguler lionel long track, it blends ok with the older stuff. The one will really not be sceen and the other one was just too bumpy without it, plus it lines up well. I tested each peice of track before putting it in, and shot some anti rust ellectrical conductive jell in each conection. I bumped up the track under the town to meet the other foam board. This way if the tunnels are too short, I can go down.

Questions: if I put the one set of 072s as pictured will it work ok. Looks like it will? I want to do the same on the other side, but need to find another set of switches for less then my left hand. All in all a good day.

And for ed, i make a bridge that will have a small brook going into it for you. The road has to go the other way. It looks pretty good to me.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I'd support the switch machines. You never know the long term issues caused by hanging them off the switch.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea, I know, dumbo me did the same mistake I warn others of. Those switches sometimes take up more room then you think!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , finished the outside loop, wired it . Tested it with a lamp, it worked and then nada. Lol. So , I swapped out transformers, and there is a short somewhere. So tomorrow is camper dewinterization, then if I have time I will start breaking down the wiring. Its weird, as I tested all the tracks individually before install for continuity. Wires are in bus bars, I did use lock ons, but those shouldn't be an issue, I make sure the wires in the clips were far away. And I didnt install the switches, too much for another set to atually use them. So , just basic wires, unless the track is loosing the continuity because the fish paper in the older track is failing? Or its those new clip conecters, I did use a bunch of those. They looked secure , but were a bit of a pain for the 16 guage stranded copper wire. One strand always jutted out and got caught on the divider. So, only time will tell. Wish I had my simple test light. I may have to make one.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Damn you Ben Franklin and your kite ... and that key. And your horse too


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think its the track mike, just looked over my messy wires, no way it could be that. Could be the transformer, as the ones im using are just whats closest for me to grab, but they dont trip when the piwer is turned down, and other outputs, going nonwhere dont trip anything. So ill take the lock ons off, restart the power, if thats not it its the track. Then I'll break it down in quarters, and so on ,and ,so on. We will see. Depending on what I find, menards track may be in the future.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> I think its the track mike, just looked over my messy wires, no way it could be that. Could be the transformer, as the ones im using are just whats closest for me to grab, but they dont trip when the piwer is turned down, and other outputs, going nonwhere dont trip anything. So ill take the lock ons off, restart the power, if thats not it its the track. Then I'll break it down in quarters, and so on ,and ,so on. We will see. Depending on what I find, menards track may be in the future.


I tightly twist and then tin the very ends of 18/16 gauge connection wires. Makes them easy to insert with no "stragglers".


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I twist them with the sheath after I cut through it, makes a nice perfect twist. The wires are too big for the lock ons though, so you need to use thw pliers and open the spring joint a bit. Even then too tight. But this was just a test. Glad it failed before I used the glue. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so my wiring is good, took off the lock ons, and the transformer dosen't trip. Put tester on the tracks and I get continuity through all the rails. So, its a center insulator somewhere. So , either it rubbed through when installing it, or I grabbed an untested peice. I do have one switch in the rear, but that was tested for operation before putting it in. So , next week will be beeaking it down in sections. And retesting. From the readings and the way the transformer trips , it seems as its a barly there bleed through. It trips, resets, trips, resets, and the readings go up and down on the volt meter. So, this could be a pita to find. Hope its just one of my tack screws hitting something. I tacked it down for testing, and was going to glue the track with a hot glue gun with black glue afterwards then remove the screws. I will waste a day on it, after that its ordering new track. I am not replacing 1000s of insulaters.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , happy holiday weekend all. I have not broken the track down yet. I did make an impulse buy. And I spent too much ,but and happy. Just hope it works as designed. So, I got an mth burning building, with firefighter. So it will pair with the MTH firehouse. It will go on the top town area. In the corner where it can be highlighted. As both the buildings are prety cool. So, in absence of me doing nothing, I am actually doing something. Spending $$$. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And ,i just won some 072 switches. So, I think the turnouts from outer to inner loop will go in now. Hope they work or I can fix them. Anyone know if 022 switch motors are the same for the 072s? Just curious. I got 4 switches for 200. Way more then I wanted, and 2 switch motors look like they have been taken apart. But if I get them up and running for 50$ a pop, not bad.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Still waiting on my switches , so everthing is on hold......they havent even shipped yet. Hope to get a day or two of work in on the layout before the first camping trip, but not looking good.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, cleaned the basement a bit, it was getting out of hand. And then broke down the track to find the short. So, I broke it in half first, the quarters, and so on. The short was a screw that rolled into the sidding that was under the town area. So I didnt see it. Good news is the track was fine and all the insulated sections work properly. What a pita. And I shoyld kbow better. When I had time and wasn't rushing stuff on my first build somethibg simmiler happened, but i would use the shop vac and a stocking over the hose to pick up loose metal from the track. So, everything now is unscrewed, and I am waiting for my 4 072 switches. So I still cannot put it back together untill they arrive. I will need to line up the inner track with the outer one so you will be able to move the trains from one to the other. Not sure if I have the room to make it work, but we will see. Switches were $$$$, but if they work I think they wete cheap enough at 225 for the 4 switches shipped and with tax. So, I did ok if they work. If they don't, I will cobble them with 022 parts. I have a bunch of those. Thats if they even work. Tunnel clearance was good for now. If that changes I can dig the foam out a bit to make room. So , successful trial run.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Deleted


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

For some reason that didnt post the other day, and the pictures were gone. Ok so here is where we are at. Pillers are done. I cut wood and painted it for transitions. Yea, not sanded or finished, but TBH , I dont care. Lol. This will have to be fiddled with after I get the 072 switches that were supose to be delivered 2 days ago. The peirs will be moved and the foam cut or added to inorder to make the grade smooth and make the pilers look equal distant. Just got an email, and they just mailed the 072 switches now. So , only 2 weeks after winning the auction. Oh well, at least they should get here by july! The wood over the bridge is to insulate the track and to raise it a bit so the trains dont clip the triangular suports. This was made for stright track , not curved. But it will work. When I get it into final position I will level it better, and then test it with a smaller train before using the bigger ones. It may limit some stuff, but for the most part should be ok. This is my great mathamatical skill coming through. I measured nothing! Lol. Living on the edge.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The pillars look great.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I agree, not bad for some scrap wood and 10 bucks worth of contact paper. Lol.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so my switches finally came. They were not shipped great. Some plastic peices in the wrapping. I don't have time ro test them, but they move freely. They look to be in good shape, just have ro figure out what exactly broke. But, that will have to wait. The camper is packed up and we will return in a few.......stay tuned.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, so my switches finally came. They were not shipped great. Some plastic peices in the wrapping. I don't have time ro test them, but they move freely. They look to be in good shape, just have ro figure out what exactly broke. But, that will have to wait. The camper is packed up and we will return in a few.......stay tuned.


I recall a sub-forum, Union Station, you know, for the off grid pics


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'll post some mike. I have 2 camping fourms I do also, and will be attending 2 rallies. So, meeting new and old people from all walks of life and seeing a small part of the world. Should be fun!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, will be starting up the build soon. Not sure exactly where I left off or what my new plans are. Unfortunately, work and maybe retirement have me second guessing what to do. I have the stuff for the build, but maybe will not build as much as I may move. Not sure yet. So stay tuned.......


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