# 332 motor issue



## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

I have a DC 332 that I just inherited from my father-in-law. The problem is it won't run. I put power to it and the motor just hums, but won't spin. I took it apart and verified it's not binding (I can spin the commutator easily by hand and all the wheels move). I also resurfaced the commutator, resouldered the leads to the windings (one was loose), and replaced the brushes and springs. After doing all that, it still just humms when I give it power. 

Anyone have this problem, and any suggestions on how to diagnose what could be wrong?


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## llskis (Apr 11, 2013)

claikens said:


> I have a DC 332 that I just inherited from my father-in-law. The problem is it won't run. I put power to it and the motor just hums, but won't spin. I took it apart and verified it's not binding (I can spin the commutator easily by hand and all the wheels move). I also resurfaced the commutator, resouldered the leads to the windings (one was loose), and replaced the brushes and springs. After doing all that, it still just humms when I give it power.
> 
> Anyone have this problem, and any suggestions on how to diagnose what could be wrong?


claikens: What kinda rectiformer are you using? Having worked with these A/F D/C units for a long time I have noticed they take a lot of power to run. If your using a #14 or #16 Vacuum
Tube rectiformer or #15 rectifier you should be OK. If you trying to power it with a small DC
rectiformer (Like the ones for HO and slot cars) they will not have sufficient power to run the 332. Larry


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## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

I was trying it with both a AF 22030 and a Lionel type 4651. 

Last night, I tried giving it more power and as I turned it up, some smoke started coming out. I'm really thinking one of my windings is bad.


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## longle (Mar 7, 2015)

Those are AC transformers and will burn the motor out. That engine requires a DC rectiformer not an AC transformer.


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## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

That's good to know. I really thought the Lionel transformer was DC. And according to my 
FIL, he used to run it with the 22030. Fortunately, he also gave me a #14, but the wiring is shot. I'm going to have to rewire it since a lot of the insulation has become brittle.


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## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

After digging through the boxes of stuff, I found that I have a #15 Rectiformer. Put it between the 22030 and the loco runs great. I do worry a bit since it seems that something in the windings is getting hot since there was a bit of smoke coming out if I ran it at high speed.


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## llskis (Apr 11, 2013)

claikens said:


> After digging through the boxes of stuff, I found that I have a #15 Rectiformer. Put it between the 22030 and the loco runs great. I do worry a bit since it seems that something in the windings is getting hot since there was a bit of smoke coming out if I ran it at high speed.


claikens: Could be from the damage from the AC power you gave it. DC commutators can be bought on ebay or from A/F Dealers. Larry P.S. Don't run at high speed.


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## longle (Mar 7, 2015)

Are you sure the smoke isn't coming from the smoke & choo-choo unit?

Larry


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## trainman23 (Dec 1, 2008)

*332 Motor Issue*

Hi There

I too have a 332 DC but I am running all AC (conventional) on my layout. I elected to replace the fixed magnet DC motor with a DC canned motor from Timko wired with a rectifier. This permits running on AC but without benefit of a reverse unit. If a reverse unit is desired, then you can install a spare Flyer tender reverse unit or go with an electronic unit from Dallee or others. The Timko is a powerful motor equipped with a flywheel and has lots of torque (more than the original Flyer motor). It moves my 332 around very nicely. You can buy Timko motors from Frank Timko himself (http://timkorepairdepot.com/) or from Doug Peck at Portlines. Rectifiers are available from both at additional cost (I found suitable items on Ebay for a little less). Alternately, SNS can motors could be used as well (available from Portlines and SNS Trains (http://snstrains.com/index.html).

Cheers!

Art Cooper
North Texas


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Smoke coming from the motor means the motor is dead. You should just get a new motor. If the motor was the part that was humming, and it wasn't locked up, it's most likely a burnt up motor, or as longle said, it took DC not AC. Again though, as longle said, make sure the smoke isn't coming from a smoke unit instead of the motor. I don't see how your train would be running if the motor already started smoking. If it is coming from the motor, that's real bad. The smoke is because the motor is getting hot, this can come from it being stalled or too much voltage. Motor coils have very thin insulation, and when it smokes, that's the insulation melting. If it weren't insulated, it would short circuit.

Lol, I remember when one of my trains burned up. I said "Wow I didn't know this one smoked". Turns out, it really wasn't supposed to smoke. It was a diesel...


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm no expert, but my guess is you can rewind the armature and/or field, whichever is burned. In fact, you might easily find one on eBay. But with Tom Barker's repair guide, it is not difficult at all to rewind them yourself.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

As an original Gilbert DC powered 332 it only has armature windings. The field is provided by an AlNiCo permanent magnet assembly. 
From some limited experience with the DC version if smoke appears it begins at the highest resistance point in the circuit which is the brush/ commutator interface. The initial smoke is from the heat vaporizing the brush particles and other dirt on the commutator. If left on longer it will eventually melt the enamel coating on the armature wiring. These can usually survive occasional application of AC. 
Tom


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## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

Fortunately, I was running the loco upside down so I could see where the smoke came from. It was definitely from the armature. I have attached a photo of it, and you can clearly see that I've boiled the epoxy. 

I have Tom Barker's repair guide and have picked up some new wire. I'm going to attempt to rewind the armature. I'll post an update when I get it done. And if that fails, I'll break down and pick up a new motor.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

That looks just like an AC motor armature. Any idea if it's the same part number? If not, and all you need is an armature, don't waste money on a complete motor...just get an armature, or rewound one. They can be found. If you need help finding one, let me know...I have a few sources.


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## trainman23 (Dec 1, 2008)

*332 Motor Issue*

Hi Guys

The DC motor armature does have a very similar appearance to the common AC armatures found in most AF steamers (S gauge) in the late 1940s/early 1950s. I have attached a photo of the DC motor components that I removed from my own 332 DC. Note the fixed magnet field (no wiring) and the unremarkable armature and brush holder. Upon reviewing Robert Hannon's book, "A.C. Gilbert Postwar American Flyer, S-Gauge Reference Manual" the size and configuration of the armature is very similar to the AC versions, but the wire size is slightly finer with more turns, and a higher resulting resistance (2.7-2.9 ohms for earlier model, 2.1-2.3 ohms for later model). The common AC armatures typically had resistance values of 1.4 -1.7 ohms.










Hope that this helps

Best Regards to all

Art Cooper
North Texas


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## trainman23 (Dec 1, 2008)

*332 Motor Issue*

Additional info:
If you elect to rewind the armature, here are specs from Robert Hannon's book that may be helpful:

Original DC Armature Length: 2-9/32"
Wire Size: 29 Turns: 100 Layers 6
Direction: Counterclockwise Tie-off: Common
Resistance: 2.7 - 2.9 Ohms

Later DC Armature Length: 2-11/32"
Wire Size: 28 Turns: 90 Layers: 6
Direction: Counterclockwise Tie-off: Common
Resistance: 2.1 - 2.3 Ohms

Good Luck!

Art Cooper
North Texas


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Consistent with the information posted above the part number for the AC armature is XA12A523, for the DC armature XA11001 was used after 10/49 and XA10476 was used prior to 10/49. 
Tom


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

If you choose not to rewind your armature, I'm sure someone else can or you can ue it toward a new rewound one. My next step would be to contact Bob Hannon...try this website.......http://trainrefs.com/index.html


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## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

Art,

That's incredibly helpful. I have the later version with the 28 ga wire. Didn't have any of that size laying around, so had to order it. Hope I can get it rewound and tested in the next week.

Chris


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## claikens (Apr 4, 2015)

Well, the armature is rewound. That was less fun than anticipated. On the plus side, I got 2.1-2.2 ohms between the commutators, so I'm feeling pretty good about that. It's assembled and running now. 

I tried to upload a video of it running, but couldn't. 

Thanks for all the help/suggestions.

On a side note, using the AC transformer with the #15 rectiformer gives a nice throttle response. But when I tried my #14 rectiformer, the instant that it gets power, it was going at warp speed. After checking the voltages, #15 is putting out 2.5-14 VDC while the #14 is putting out 12-20 VDC. The #14 has been converted from vacuum tube to an electronic rectifier, and I wonder if I need a resistor to drop the voltage.


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