# 6466X Tender



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This is a quick check of a whistle tender. Four screws hold the shell on to the frame. Next remove the brush plate. It has two nuts and because of the wiring I removed the connection to the relay. On the right side right picture. The brush plate normally lifts off but the wire on the lower right was wrapped around the threads and jammed down by the washer. I used pliers to work it free. Then the plate easily lifted off. ALso on inspection one of my center wires was disconnected from the center pickup. That pickup has a broken spring. That funny center bar contains felt that holds oil for the spinning armature. Even though the other end has none.










Ugh. I used wd40 to clean the armature and the brushes. I rubbed the brushes on a piece of carboard lightly to clean the contact surface.











Next the copper was in good shape but I used 400 grit to smooth it out.









The sick pickup, and a bad screw post. I normally cut them out and replace it with epoxy and redrill a screw hole. 









Last the whistle unit and relay









prr1361 asked about this in another thread.
That about explains it. Hope the relay works.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Nice job and great photo's. Makes me want to buy one and try my hand at it. *L*


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## prr1361(inactive) (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks again those pics will definitely come in handy. Ive uploaded a picture from last Christmas (2008). No Hi-railing just plain old tubular track with black poster board with white pinstripe for road. The surface is green indoor/outdoor carpet. The engine is an MTH-railking PRR F-3 with protosounds. For you viewing pleasure.....with more to come


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks T man, for the info.

Did it work when all was done?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Ugh,,,,, it's still disasembled. Didn't have time to. The whistle was never a priority. I have a Marx whistle station and a whistle Lionel bldg like the watchman but only a whistle.
It should go if the relay is good. Glad you enjoyed it.

More pictures are in the photobucket account under 6466X

I cleaned the whistle edges with oil and a Q tip. I jump ran the motor and then placed it on the track with full power it ran. So the relay i good now I need to clean the wheels and fix the pickup.
Do you have a gasket between the plastic housing and the motor by the impeller?
I was thinking of making one out of construction paper.


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## tworail (Apr 13, 2006)

We need to make a how to section and put these in a prominent place so they don't get buried.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I only screwed around with one tender's whistle. It was in very poor shape.
That was last year and it's still sitting in the to do box all apart.

Is there a gasket between them I don't remember seeing one. I forgot which one I took apart. Might be a different #. I will have to look a it when I get a chance.

I agree...... put these fix it threads some where for easy access so they don't get buried somewhere.

Keep them coming T-Man. Great projects and pictures too, that you come up with.

I would like to try and add some but I just don't have the extra time. 60hrs a week working and my to do list around the house keep me busy enough. I barely have time to even look at my trains! 

I still have to get out there and get the leaves up before it snows. Little by little they are blowing away. Though I don't think the neighbors like where they are going.

Now the oven stopped working got to fix that too! I'm going to cook the thanksgiving day turkey in the barbecue this year! I have cooked large whole chickens in it and they came out GREAT. But a turkey's a whole lot bigger I am hoping it will come out fine.


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## prr1361(inactive) (Nov 11, 2009)

ok...so evertything was cleaned. Carbon brushes were replaced and the round housings for the brushes still get pretty hot. Im thinking this isnt normal, am I wrong? If not Im open for suggestions

THANKS


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The three surfaces are connected. With a voltmeter measure the resistance between them. Also look at the metal edges on the side for rubbing. Looking from the lower right and in.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i have a whistling tender very similar to this one and i need some information on these tenders in order to repair, i had to pull it apart and unfreeze the motor it was rusted shut and i tryed to clean the e unit up. the wires from the pickup rollers were frayed so i have replaced them. with the power off i can see the pickup on the e unit is open but when i power turn the controller on and put power to it i can see the pickup on the e unit close. my question is, do these needs a certain ac controller to run? and how do these e units work? i don't think the tender is supposed to whistle the whole tiem the engines running around the track.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The e unt is really a relay powered by DC. The lever whistle on the transformer sends a DC pulse for the relay, then the whistle motor starts.
If it whistles all the time, the DC is on all the time. A fault in the relay or transformer.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i'm guessing a fault in the relay... but what is wierd is i have a small black ac controller. on this controller it it stays on all the time even after switching the wires and playing with the switch on the controller. now i have a newer lionel gray controller with the push button for the horn. i can use that controller and it doesn't come on till i push the horn button, but then it stays on.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Does it work with AC?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

all i know is both controllers are ac, one controller it's on all the time. the other controller it comes on when i push the horn button and stays on. i can look at the contact on the bottom of the relay and it's not touching till power is applied so its gotta be a short or something in the relay, this tender was really rusty, i cleaned it up some but it still look bad.


i dunno if this answers your question on "does it work with ac" but i guess u were asking if i was using a dc controller? i don't know how to answer that lol


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Normally they don't work at all. Is it wired correctly?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

T-Man said:


> Normally they don't work at all. Is it wired correctly?


i never re-wired it and i don't think it was ever touched. if you want i can take it apart make a video and post it on youtube.


i'm sure the 2 pickup wires i replaced are in the rite spot, i put them back where the old ones came off.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am currently searching Lionel Siupplements for a diagram. All the mechanical whistles are the same until they went electronic.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

T-Man said:


> I am currently searching Lionel Siupplements for a diagram. All the mechanical whistles are the same until they went electronic.


ehh, i just checked it again. it looks like it may be working rite now. it takes a few seconds to go off after pushing the button, but that may be something else . with the engine on the track it trips the transformer. i did re wire the loco for forward only ac. the e unit drum was broke so i drilled a hole in it put a screw in it and cut it so it fit like it was supposed to, but the motor just hesitates and blew the breaker in the transformers.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

ok, it only stays on all the time with the black controller. i think it works rite with the gray one however when a engine is connected it slows the engine way down sometimes trips the controller. i think i need a better transformer lol


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The drum must be shorting out. DOn't use it with the tender. It doesn't have to move. The Lionel Diagrams are here

The problem is trying to find it. It is not indexed.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

T-Man said:


> The drum must be shorting out. DOn't use it with the tender. It doesn't have to move. The Lionel Diagrams are here
> 
> The problem is trying to find it. It is not indexed.



if you're talking about the drum for the e unit in the engine, i have removed the e unit from the engine and direct wired the motor for the loco to run forward only ac\


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

T-Man said:


> The drum must be shorting out. DOn't use it with the tender. It doesn't have to move. The Lionel Diagrams are here
> 
> The problem is trying to find it. It is not indexed.


if you're talking about the drum on the e unit for the loco, i have removed the e unit , it's wired for forward only ac with no e unit


"edit" i have several locos, the tender slows them all down when i engage the whistle.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

When you press the whistle it should speed up.
It may be time for you to get a service manual.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

humm, i dunno then. yea, maybe i should pick up a service manual. i have a diesel in here ima hook up and see if it slows it down when i push the horn. the horn button is built into one of the gray cheep lionel controllers.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> humm, i dunno then. yea, maybe i should pick up a service manual. i have a diesel in here ima hook up and see if it slows it down when i push the horn. the horn button is built into one of the gray cheep lionel controllers.


i just pulled apart a old marx transformer i had and soldered a new cord on it and put it back together. i guess it has more amps than the rest. the loco runs with the tender without the whistle. i think something may be messed up in my black controller and i don't think the gray controller has enough amps. is there any way to make a whistle button? if i searched on here and didn't get any hits, the whitling tender works with all the other engines and even works with the one that was tripping the controller out when the controller is really really low, but it's too low to move the engine.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If I troubleshoot I need information and pictures. Lets not waste time. Your whistle works. THe relay does works but does not shut off. This is strange. The transformer info is no help at all. Then everthing slows when the button is pressed. Strange again. I can show the diagram. Ground is important. Try attaching a ground wire right to the frame. 

I cleaned mine and it worked. If yours doesn't all I can say is replace the relay and transformer. A meter would help to read the DC current.

There is just too much that I don't understand to fix this. It's sort of an undiscovered country. Really not my strong point to be honest.

The only worst subject for me than a relay is the smoke generators.

I am adding this from another post on whistle buttons.

At this point I don't have an explanation for the slow down when presssing the button.
It must be like a drain or a short.

Transformers generally work or they don't. SOme have different voltages so if one section goes bad it my effect the total output. You need to talk specifics because they vary so much.

I made a diagram for the whistle . note everthing depends on the ground. A rusty frame won't help.










Most of the information I got was from CCT forum on whistle button making. I can give you links but for the most part you are on your own. From experience on this forum I know my limitations I can assist, but I am still learning too.

I do know the relay works with a DC pulse. The voltage is around 3 to start. That gets everthing started then it goes down to 1.5 volts DC THen is slowly drowns out. I have collected a number of whistle buttons and some have a heated coil which you just can't buy.I am not at the point where I can tell you how to make one and ensure it will work. The same for relays. They either work or don't. Replace as needed. Often it is a connection or problem that is wrong or just dirty.


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## jetmech (Dec 5, 2009)

I have the same tender with the same whistle. It is a WS-125 if my memory serves me correctly. I am in need of a new impeller and a whistle body. My impeller has a couple of blades missing and the whistle body is full of cracks. I probably need a complete new whistle. The relay works fine and it works, just doesn't whistle very well. Know where I can get parts or a complete whistle? Ed


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jet,

Several sources for older Lionel parts. Try Jeff Kane at the Train Tender (www.ttender.com) ... not sure if he has the whistle parts you need, but he's a pretty honest / straight shooter.

TJ


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## jetmech (Dec 5, 2009)

TJ, sorry for the delay replying and thanks for the tip. I'll give them a try. Ed


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i wanted to update you guys. my issue was the relay in the transformer kicking out. i replaced the old grey transformer with the horn button and with a cw80 type transformer and the engine/tender both work well now. the engine does speed up with the whistle button pressed and does not trip out. hopfully this will help someone else in the future.


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## GeraldNuss (Dec 31, 2013)

*Another picture?*

Hey T-Man, not sure if this old thread will generate new info but I will try. I have that same tender, thanks to council from this forum I realized the coil was missing and I got one from eBay. Set about to wire it up yesterday using a different thread's pictures, and another tender I have. I followed it as close as I could but it was not exactly my unit. This morning I found this thread and I see where I might have gone wrong. In looking at your first picture it looks like the wires from the pickup rollers attach at the top of the coil, it that right? Your sketch makes some sense but a photo of the connections would be sweet. I tried all kind of combinations yesterday with the same results, My whistle began to sound as soon as power was applied, not when then whistle button was pressed. The coil never closed the contacts. 

I have been looking for a Greenberg but not sure which one to go for. I have two postwar, 1950's steamers at this point. Will try to stay in that decade, I think. Are the greenberg's divided that way?
Thanks for the great resources you link too.



T-Man said:


> This is a quick check of a whistle tender. Four screws hold the shell on to the frame. Next remove the brush plate. It has two nuts and because of the wiring I removed the connection to the relay. On the right side right picture. The brush plate normally lifts off but the wire on the lower right was wrapped around the threads and jammed down by the washer. I used pliers to work it free. Then the plate easily lifted off. ALso on inspection one of my center wires was disconnected from the center pickup. That pickup has a broken spring. That funny center bar contains felt that holds oil for the spinning armature. Even though the other end has none.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Here is a picture with descriptions of the wiring.

Larry


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

From Larry's picture the circuit goes from the right brush through the motor to the left brush then to the coil and the comon rail. So this is powered when the relay coil closes.

That right brush connects to the top of the relay that is directly connected to the botttom contact.


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## GeraldNuss (Dec 31, 2013)

Thank you both for the reply. From the label and the picture I see it all. In following my other tender, the connection to the coil is different. That is where I was going wrong. Now the Super Bowl is on so repairs have ceased for a while. I will report once I get back to it.


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## GeraldNuss (Dec 31, 2013)

I have order a Greenberg's too. So maybe I can contribute instead of just ask.


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## GeraldNuss (Dec 31, 2013)

For the first time in 50 years my tender is proudly sounding its whistle! Thank you! My grand kids will be thrilled!


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Some whistles may be wired a bit differently, as seen in this schematic from the service manual. Here, the motor field winding circuit is completed through the relay contacts, which are grounded, energizing the motor. The wiring as shown in the picture has the relay contacts supplying power to the motor, and the field coil winding is permanently grounded to the motor frame.

The result is that there are 2 different ways to wire the relay and motor, both of which will achieve the same result. One version has the relay contacts on the ground side of the circuit, and the other has the contacts on the power side.

It sounds like your whistle is wired according to the schematic.

Larry


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