# Question on switch lanterns



## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

:dunno:
I run 027 with 1122 remote switches. I know the lantern has a red and green side, and a long time ago, I figured out that you can't simply rotate the lantern so green always goes with the main line if the main line curves thru the switch. (Also it appears that the green and red lenses on the postwar double remote control levers are pretty random.) From a distance, I often have trouble figuring out which way to turn the switch to make a particular maneuver. (also sometimes my bulbs might need replacing). When I am running trains thru a distant switch, it would be nice if I could more easily see which way the switch is opened. 

What do you guys think would be best: 1) modify the bumps on the lantern cylindrical bases so green is always main line (or more main)? (and keep up on my light bulbs)......... OR .... 2) design some kind of arrow, sign, or light on a stick to attach to the top of the lantern, so it rotates with the switch? OR 3) work out a remote light system on my control panel? OR.......other suggestions???


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The green lenses are lined up with the straight path through the switch, and the red lenses indicate that the switch is set for the diverging (curved) route, even if the diverging route is your "main" line.

The easiest indication of switch position would be an arrow on top of the lantern.

When you replace the bulbs in the turnouts and controllers (along with locomotives, rolling stock and accessories), think about replacing them with LED's. These are drop in replacements.

Larry


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

larry g

I run the same setup and have for years on my layout.

I make sure my controller shows a green light for straight and red for turn. 

The indicator isn't actually a light, it is a rubber lens but you get the idea.

If the indicator is not showing the correct position, switch the two wires on the 1122 which do not have the metal base.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

022 switches for O track will indicate exactly how the switch is positioned. The O27 switches were never intended to work that way.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The lanterns on both the '0' gauge and '027' switches operate the same way and show identical colors to denote route selection of the switch. Green will denote the straight through path, and red will indicate the diverging path.

The controllers have to be wired correctly for them to show the proper color in relation to switch and lantern position.

Larry


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Some of my 1122 lanterns have a key to position them properly, some don't. The ones that don't can be placed at any position. Some of the older ones were played with a lot over the years.

At any rate, my lanterns are difficult to read at the end of my layout, and it is only 12 or 14 feet from Control Central.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dave Sams said:


> At any rate, my lanterns are difficult to read at the end of my layout, and it is only 12 or 14 feet from Control Central.


That's why there are lights on the controllers.


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## tootle (Dec 11, 2013)

As I recall, those controllers have internal "flags" that flip back and forth to block the light from the controller bulb from shining through either the red or green lens on the controller. Ideally, the controller should indicate the same color as the switch, but if I remember correctly, those flags don't always change position as they should unless you press the controller handle FULLY in one direction or the other. It's fairly easy to push the controller handle far enough to make the electrical contact to have the switch change position but still not far enough to have the internal flag change position. Result: the switch has changed position but the controller still indicates (incorrectly) its original position. You need to be sure you push the controller handle all the way.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

tootle said:


> As I recall, those controllers have internal "flags" that flip back and forth to block the light from the controller bulb from shining through either the red or green lens on the controller. Ideally, the controller should indicate the same color as the switch, but if I remember correctly, those flags don't always change position as they should unless you press the controller handle FULLY in one direction or the other. It's fairly easy to push the controller handle far enough to make the electrical contact to have the switch change position but still not far enough to have the internal flag change position. Result: the switch has changed position but the controller still indicates (incorrectly) its original position. You need to be sure you push the controller handle all the way.



You are correct, to a point. If the "flags" don't move easily, that could be a sign of dirt buildup or a need for lubrication. A little quality time with a screwdriver and some oil will do wonders.

Are you new to the forum? If so, welcome.


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## tootle (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, relatively new to the forum, but I rediscovered my trains around '78 and built a layout with a number of 1122's and their associated controllers, each of which was, as you suggested, taken apart, cleaned, re-wired, etc. I recall operating those switches a number of times and looking down to wonder why the controller didn't indicate the same as the switch. I don't dispute that lubrication may have something to do with it, but also I believe there's a "balance point" you need to get past to make those "flags" (more appropriately called "shutters") actually flip. Hence, my advice to be sure to push the controller handle all the way to its terminus. Thinking a bit more about it, I suppose one could also adjust the internal contacts to be sure the "balance point" is exceeded before or at the same time the contacts are closed.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

The illumination lamp of the 1122 control is static and not actually wired to the switch points as are O22 switch controls. The mechanical shutters in the 1122 controller will thus not indicate position of a switch that has been tripped by the non derail feature or manually turned.
Not a problem readily solved or worth solving in my opinion.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

BigAl56 said:


> Not a problem readily solved or worth solving in my opinion.


Just say it, don't hold anything back.

I JUST PLAIN *HATE* ANYTHING TO DO WITH O/27! 
THERE IS NO FIX, JUST TOSS THEM IN THE TRASH!

There...I said it for you............feel better?:smokin:


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Ed,

thank you for relieving me of my O27 induced stress. 

Seriously, for anyone sticking with O27, If you need to have a control method for your layout that relies on having precise reads of switch position do not use O27. It was and is not intended to be used on a serious permanent layout. O27 was always meant as Lionel's low end starter track for a simple 4x8 layout.

If cost is a problem the jump to O tubular is not that big a hit. Used track sells well during the cold months. I urge you O27 holdouts to start ripping up your track, sell it off on ebay, and install O31 tubular with 022 switches. You will be much happier and your trains will thank you with fewer derailments.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Big Ed is feeling a little defensive about his O27 stuff.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, I think big Al just told you to rip up your layout.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Well I know who is not on my 027 Christmas Card list!

I'll never give up my 60 year old 027 layout.


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*That Being Said*

Now that you all got your 027 loathing off your chest......

I have to thank TOOTLE for helping me to understand my problem and the solution: :appl:

As a child, I spent many fond years playing with my 027. Among many other things, one piece of my love of this hobby is the nostalgia I feel when I play with these same toys. 

Because of TOOTLE, I now understand that, over many years, I have trained myself to ignore the indicator lights on the 1122 controllers because of their lack of dependability, mostly due to the way I was always using them. I just tried TOOTLE's , method of firmly hitting the controllers and, YES! If I can learn to push the lever firmly all the way forward or back, the lights actually do indicate accurately. There IS a tipping point for the bulb shade, or flipper, or whatever it is called, and it DOES NOT flip dependably if I lightly click the controller (which is all it takes to flip the switch). I always wondered why the green indicators were always so dimly lit!!!  

Also, I just realized that my control panel is at a slight angle, which means that I have to be sure to give the handle a firm nudge to flip that shade up hill. Gravity is slightly affecting the balancing point.

Because of flipping the controllers too lightly, for my whole life, I learned to ignore the red-green indicator lenses.  Because I learned to ignore them, I also got in the habit of not bothering to wire the controllers correctly so Green = Straight, and also got in the habit of not keeping up on replacing the bulbs as needed. 

If I can re-wire the indicators correctly (by chance I should already have 50% of them wired correctly) and RELEARN how to throw a switch, then I can learn to rely on the control panel bulbs, as they were designed to function, and maybe avoid more train wrecks.

Thank you to TOOTLE for solving a problem for a kid from the 027 side of the tracks!

PS Is your name from a Golden Book about a tug boat or a train?


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*In support of 027*

Although designed "for the masses", many of us have become "imprinted" on these toys, due to our years of early exposure. 

As for durability:
As a kid, I didn't have magnetraction or plexiglass sides on my table...... and there were times when that 1615 fell off the table (especially when a friend was running the transformer). I always felt bad, but I always put it back on the track, and it ran like a charm every time. 59 years later, it still has the 2 diecast, light protuberances on the front. When it comes to durability, post war 027 and 0 have it way over modern (I can't speak to modern high end, because I have yet to rationalize spending $1500 on an engine. But "apples to apples" would be Post War 027 to modern 027)

As far as parts and repair:
I was in a train store and saw a guy come in with a modern (maybe low-end) engine that had fallen off the table once and was cracked. The manager-repair man said that he could not get parts or afford the time to make it worth while to repair modern trains from China. In addition to holding up well, I can easily, and cheaply replace most parts on my post war trains by calling Jeff at the Train Tender. I can talk to a human being, person to person, at a mom and pop business, and purchase parts that sometimes can run under a dollar. And the advice Jeff generously shares is free.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Big Ed is feeling a little defensive about his O27 stuff.


No, just the way he bashes O/27 anytime anyone ever asks a question about O/27.
I know what his answer will be before he types it. :smokin:
Just toss all your O/27 and get O. 

I use the Lionel 1121's with the same controllers. 
The rear switches which are blocked by the roundhouse I can't see them. 
But there is no need to see them as my controller's light up and a quick glance at them tell me which way the points are pointed. 
The ones I can see are lit by the switch or controllers, but I have gotten used to just relying on the controllers lights to see what direction they are pointed.


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*0 Scale controllers are identical*

Hey Big Ed,

Thanks! When you are saying: "I use the Lionel 1121's with the same controllers. ................................, but I have gotten used to just relying on the controllers lights to see what direction they are pointed," it inspired me to look in Greenbergs and saw that your ll21s have the exact same controllers as my 1122's, with the same light blocking "shutters". 

And you have learned to reliably rely on the green and red lenses on the controllers.  So in reality, this is not a matter of 0 vs 027, it is just a matter of my 60 year habit of giving the controller a quick little click to throw the switch, but not enough to reliably throw the shutter.

So this old dog needs to learn some new tricks. If I learn to fully throw the controllers, then I can rewire my controllers with the correct color orientation, keep up on the bulbs and voila! Fewer train wrecks = more fun. 

(PS You big guys in the forum can really rank on each other. Like old friends....or even spouses.) :hah: :cheeky4:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For non-derailing O27 switches, you don't have a reliable indication of the switch position on the controller, right?


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*not a reliable indicator on contoller*

Even if I throw the controller hard enough to move the shutter, when a train throws a non-derailing switch, the controller shutter will not move, then the light on the controller will be in-correct. That brings me back to square one. 

Does anyone have any ideas of how to wire a red and green bulb, mounted on a control panel to indicate the true position of the switch? :dunno:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

My switches are not anti derailing.
The man running the trains has to throw the switch. 
And if he doesn't throw the switch, then it is a good excuse to bring out the crane.

How about taking something like a toothpick (paint it black) and put a pointer flag on top and glue it to the top of the switch light. 
That way when it switches the pointer will let you know with a quick glance what way the points are facing? 

Or take a 1022's direction flag and glue it on top?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The 022 switch machines have contacts in them that are used to change the lighting of the controller bulbs to indicate turnout position.

The 1122 turnouts have no internal contacts to do the same thing.

To get any kind of lighted indication of turnout position for 1122's would need to have some kind of contacts attached to the swivel rail acting as a switch.

A nice project to contemplate.

Larry


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*Thanks*

Thanks guys. Good thoughts.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

*Resurrection of my O-27*

63 or so years ago (1952-3) my grand father bought a starter Lionel O-27 post war set for me (2035 locomotive, 5 cars, a 1033 transformer, and enough track to make a 4 x 8 oval layout). I still have all of it and want to put it back into service. Note: I have not had it out of the storage box for over 25 years. I'm having the locomotive serviced now.  The track seems to be fine. I've also had the 1033 tested and it is outputting just like it should. Now, I need to understand how to wire and use the two 1122-027 switches I have. All I want to do is have an oval and an inside circle just like I had when I was a kid. The strange thing is I do not recall ever having a controller for these switches and yet the two switches were definitely part of the layout my dad (now passed away) put together for me. So, I have two questions. 1. Am I actually able to use these switches without a switch controller? (if so, How?) and 2. How exactly should they be wired to the 1033 in order to work? I know many of you are very experienced model railroaders, so forgive my newbie status and questions. I hope to have this running soon so I can pass along the same exact set I received from my grand father to my first grandson (2 1/2) this Thanksgiving. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The 1022 is manual, so turn the lantern and the train switches. If you want control look to buy 2 switches that are anti derailing. If you get those you can wire it to go through the outside loop, then the inside loop automatically. It is cool considering the era


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

My bad...... my switches are actually 1122-027's.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Those are traditional O27 remote switches and yes you will need a controller to operate them properly. They are also non derail switches winch means with the two plastic insulating pins properly installed they will automatically flip to the proper position if a train comes at them the wrong way.

In the meanwhile you can manually activate them by turning the lantern by hand. Controllers are not hard to come by. There are lots of used ones on ebay. Beware the wiring as with a lot of the old controls the insulation is cracked and decayed. However replacing the wires is not hard for anyone with a soldering gun.

Here is a controller that comes with replaced wires.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-1122-dual-controller-with-new-wiring-/181882156611?hash=item2a59057643


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Al is right. But you can wire them up without switches utilizing the anti derailing feature so the train will automatically switch between inner and outer loop. Is that what your trains did before?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.thortrains.net/manual5.htm under auto derailing feature, just disregard the dirtct feed for the switches and the controller. These are 022 switches so I think the two wires go on different posts. I believe the screw on the inside of the switch is the ground , so it would be the middle and end terminal, someone here will know for sure. But its fun and easy to do.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> Al is right. But you can wire them up without switches utilizing the anti derailing feature so the train will automatically switch between inner and outer loop. Is that what your trains did before?


Yes. That is exactly what they did. They automatically switched between the inner and outer loops. How do I do that?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I do not know if you can do that with 1122 O27 switches. This can only be done with 022 switches.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks, Big Al. I appreciate the information.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

You can definitely do it with the 1122s. I'll see if I can figure it out exactly later. My other post has the info for the 022s. You just have to see what post corresponds to what as they are wired differently.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

*1122 help... Thanks!*



sjm9911 said:


> You can definitely do it with the 1122s. I'll see if I can figure it out exactly later. My other post has the info for the 022s. You just have to see what post corresponds to what as they are wired differently.


Thanks sjm9911. I look forward to your advice.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I seem to remember trying this with a pair of O27 switches a ways back If you have 1122s wired so they are in parallel to a controller there is current flow through the bulb in the controller causing one of the switches to slowly switch on it's own. also if you stop a train with wheels on the non derail the coils stays energized.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I ran them off track power it looks like the inside terminal isn't used. Run a wire from the center terminal of one switch to the outside terminal of the other. Do the same thing for the other switch center terminal to outside terminal. I belive this is they way to do it. Also , I never had any chattering when it was running this way. I do remember the track chattering when I followed the 022 instructions. Yes , as al said no parking trains on switches. I also had no controllers set up when I did this. Hope it helps.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

*1122 no controller solution*



sjm9911 said:


> I ran them off track power it looks like the inside terminal isn't used. Run a wire from the center terminal of one switch to the outside terminal of the other. Do the same thing for the other switch center terminal to outside terminal. I belive this is they way to do it. Also , I never had any chattering when it was running this way. I do remember the track chattering when I followed the 022 instructions. Yes , as al said no parking trains on switches. I also had no controllers set up when I did this. Hope it helps.


Thanks sjm9911: I will try this method and will let you know the results. I really appreciate the help.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'm guessing the controller that Al had wired in was letting a bit of power into the switch.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

*Wiring the 1122-027 switches for auto switching*



retsof said:


> Thanks sjm9911: I will try this method and will let you know the results. I really appreciate the help.


I finally got my 2035 locomotive back so I could test the 1122-027 wiring for auto switching. Maybe I've done something wrong, (I wired the middle post directly to the outside post on the other switch, visa versa) but they don't "automatically" switch. However, if I manually change one, the other switch changes as well. So, I can go inside track to outside track by manually changing just the one. Any more suggestions on how to get it to switch automatically?

I also have one other question/problem and will try to post a video of what I am explaining here. Here goes: One of the 1122 switches sparks a lot when the train goes over it. Anyway, what should I be checking to fix that sparking? The train slows down on it's own (loss of voltage?) as it passes over this switch and the sparks fly on the track as each car goes over. Any help or ideas will be greatly appreciated. A step by step plan would work best for me as I am very new to this.
View attachment Sparking Train.mp4.zip


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Its probably wired wrong, my fault. I tried to go from memory and my old train board. Ill see if I can figure it out tomorrow. That is if I have a pair of those switches laying around to play with. For now I would disconnect the wire and see if the sparking ends.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Or, you might have it right. Turn one switch so its the wrong way. When the train hits it the anti derailing feature it hould switch both tracks.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Agreed. Before you do anything more test the non derail by applying power to the switch and shorting the outer rails on the ends. Some sparking is normal.


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## retsof (Sep 29, 2015)

*SPARKING PROBLEM SOLVED!!*



sjm9911 said:


> Its probably wired wrong, my fault. I tried to go from memory and my old train board. Ill see if I can figure it out tomorrow. That is if I have a pair of those switches laying around to play with. For now I would disconnect the wire and see if the sparking ends.


Sparking problem is solved. I removed the wiring between the two switches and it stopped almost completely. Since some sparking is normal, per Big Al, I am seeing very little sparking now. When I manually switch one of the 1122 switches, the other does switch automatically as the locomotive approaches, so that seems to work fine. It still does not switch between the inner and outer oval automatically, but I'm starting to like the ability to do it manually since I have one of the switches located very close to where the transformer is anyway. I think my little guy will get a real kick out of doing the manual switch as well when I give the set to him at Thanksgiving.

I appreciate the help you guys have given me. A lot! :appl::smilie_daumenpos:


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