# A reasonable grade to climb?



## HowardH (Sep 18, 2020)

Hi - I'm running original AF track, transformer and rolling stock - and the occasional long-and-heavy train (think North Coast Limited, A-B-A pulling seven cars). What do you think would be a reasonable maximum grade to climb, or, say, the length of track to bring the train from ground-level up to run across the top of a scale-height tunnel portal? Thanks!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

probably two and a half percent .... seven cars isn't much...including fairly tight corners as well ..


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

To answer the question we can start with the basics of what Gilbert sold as trestle sets for use with their track. The 780 Railroad Trestle set is typical. It has 24 trestles and rises to a height of 5". 12 pieces of Gilbert 10" track is 120" to climb, plus another 12 to descend plus one level piece between the two 5" trestles makes the total length 250". The grade is a 5" rise over a 120" run, calculates to a 4.2% grade. Any Gilbert train set sold with Pull-Mor can climb this grade if the set is in good condition. Some, but not nearly all non Pull-Mor sets can climb it. The 1956 5685RH Northern Pacific Set will climb it. By adding the two additional cars it becomes marginal if the axles are not well lubricated and the power trucks are not in perfect shape.
Almost all Gilbert diesels wear the axle holes in the trucks into an oval shape. It will happen with as little as 50 hours of run time. Once this wear happens the engine performance severely declines. The only fix is to drill out the trucks and rebush them with bronze bushings. This is usually best left to a professional with experience repairing Gilbert diesels.
WVGCA's reply is consistent with my experience operating S gauge trains. 2.5% is the maximum for good operation with up to 10 Gilbert freight cars or 5 passenger cars. This works for most non Pull-Mor engines. I have a variety of grades on my layout from 1/2% to 2.4%. Most anything will climb a 2% grade. For 2.5% some cars usually need to be removed from the non Pull-Mor engines.
A note on transformer sizing. The 5685RH set with two added cars will pull 5A climbing the 4.2% grade. That is the maximum output of a Gilbert 100W transformer (4B or 8B.) Adding any other loads, such as a few pair of 720A turnouts and some illuminated accessories will overload the transformer. I recommend a larger transformer Just running on level track at constant speed that seven car set will draw 3A to 3.5A.
Welcome to the MTF, enjoy the Gilbert trains!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Another way to look at it. Each track piece has to rise .42 inches. The 12th one reaching 5 inches.
To go with a quarter inch rise it would take 20 pieces of track.


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## HowardH (Sep 18, 2020)

Thanks, Tom, for the info! I've been running with an AF 22090 350W transformer, but with lots of original AF automatic turnouts and pretty-rough original rolling stock, so think I'd best stick with a 2.5% grade. On another topic (or maybe this should be a new "thread"?), I got one of these new Lionel AF locomotives (see pic). Some folks tell me I need to install a low-voltage circuit-breaker in my wiring; others say don't even think about running with original AF power - could fry its innards. Any suggestions? Thanks Again - Howard


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, I have a 2.5% grade on my O-scale layout, and I can pull a pretty good sized consist up that with no issues as long as I use a reasonably heavy locomotive. You can see the head end of the train going up the grade in the background.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Howard, if that is a new FlyerChief engine your 22090 (which is a fantastic conventional transformer) does not have the necessary protection to safely run that Northern. GRJ, who posted right after you in this thread has posted many times on what is required. Basically it is a fast acting fuse along with a TVS (transient voltage suppression) diode. John has posted recommended part numbers for these.
On my main layout I invested in ZW-L transformers. Not cheap but in my opinion the best transformers made today for those not operating early MTH O gauge engines.
For temporary layouts I have some MRC AH101 transformers with the tethered remotes. These are long out of production but can be found on the internet for about $100. Like the ZW-L the AH101 output is non-sinusoidal. The FlyerChief and Legacy engines are designed to operate with that type of waveform and the Gilbert engines do not care and sometimes run better at low speed with the non sinusoidal power.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

John. I have been following all your layout posts and watching all the videos. The layout is impressive and you can run some long trains. My layout also has a maximum 2.5% grade, the minimum curve radius is 30". Multiplying that 60" diameter by 64/48 gives an O gauge equivalent of O84. I can run similar train lengths as you do with Legacy engines. In S gauge it gets more complicated when throwing American Models and Gilbert engines into the mix. With just a couple of specific exceptions those other brands of engines either slip or stall well short of the Lionel Legacy engines pulling capabilities on long grades. One of the newer AM diesels (converted to TMCC) stalls on the 2.5% grade with just 12 Gilbert freight cars. The AM Pacifics are powerful but traction limited. They will not pull nine very free rolling American Models passenger cars up the 2.5% grade, the wheels spin. One day I will get around to adding weight in the cab area to solve that problem, the traction tires are on the rear drivers. This is just life in S gauge.


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## HowardH (Sep 18, 2020)

Impressive video, John. Tanks a lot! (Sorry - couldn't help myself.)


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