# Turnouts....Questions



## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Now that I finally got a couple locomotives running on my layout I'm having a lot of derailments at a lot of my turnouts. Yes, the ARE Atlas. I first built my layout in the 70s and they were in my price range LOL So my question is, are there any economical turnouts out there that I could start replacing a few at a time? Right now I have #4s, #6s & #8s. (Atlas) #s . My only concern would be tearing up my road bed. I don't mind cutting track or filling in track. It would be the radius of the turnout to fit the road bed that would matter ! Any insight or suggestions would be appreciated !


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

What kind of locomotives are derailing on the TOs? And which TOs does it happen at? All of them or the #4s only? Is it picking the points? Jumping the frog?


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

You never mentioned the issues you see with the turnouts or track scale of your defective Atlas turnouts.
I was thinking along the lines of fixing or modifying what you have since expensive replacement turnouts like Tilig, Micro Engineering, Shinorara and Pico aren't ecomonical.
This video shows what one owner did to fix his Atlas turnouts...





More along the lines of fixing what you have ....
You can make sure that the height of the frogs are the same as the railheads.
Often, on the Atlas switches, the frog height is a little greater than the height of the rails.
Also make sure the top edge of the points are sharp.
If they are rounded or uneven, when the wheels hit them, you have a derailment.
Check the guard rails for any defects and file any excess plastic/metal.

There also seems to be an issue with the "gap" between the "frog point" and the rail is slightly too long, not giving support to the wheels, and they "drop down" causing the derailment. Enginerring a fix for that is problematic.
For those who want to buy economy turnouts, check the "gap" on the ones you are buying!!!!
You can also install rerailers at the turnout egress points if all else fails....
In the end, you get what you pay for.


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## MidwestMikeGT (Jan 4, 2021)

You can also check the points of your turnouts (and of your track, wheels, etc.) with an NMRA Standards gauge for your scale. These gauges are so useful. Gauges. Unfortunately, they are out of the N-scale gauges.

The adherence to the NMRA standards help a lot in running the train smoothly.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Unfortunately, the measurements and divert angle are not
standard among turnout brands. You may have
to change the track curvature connected to the divert and 
add short fill in track pieces to both straight and
divert. I had the same
derailing problems as you with Atlas turnouts. I replaced
those with Peco Insulfrogs...end of derails...but it
did take some fiddling with the tracks to make the
Pecos fit in. But it is worth the effort to have a smooth
running layout.

Don


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I have been methodically replacing every turnout on my layout with peco insulfrog turnouts. I did have a whole bunch of atlas snap type turnouts but I gave up trying to make them work. I can get the peco ones for between $20 and $30 a piece depending on size and configuration of the turnout and they have actually worked pretty well as replacements. You will have to add or take away track in about every instance but the angles end up working out good


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## beepjuice (Sep 17, 2014)

Here's another helper video


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

OP, can you take a picture of a turnout and the first piece of track leading up to it? Take picture from overhead looking straight down, thanks.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Agree with Dennis.
Post a pic of your turnout(s).
Let's see what they look like.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DonR said:


> Unfortunately, the measurements and divert angle are not
> standard among turnout brands. You may have
> to change the track curvature connected to the divert and
> add short fill in track pieces to both straight and
> ...


This is your problem, right here.

Atlas Snap Track turnouts, in addition to being "sloppy" and prone to issues, are unique in that they have an UNPROTOTYPICAL 1/3 18" radius curve for their diverging leg. Better quality turnouts have STRAIGHT diverging legs, like real railroads do. So you are not going to find a better quality turnout that will fit the geometry you created with the Snap Switches.

Personally, I would bite the bullet, invest in better turnouts, and use flex track segments to reconnect your layout. Just be careful -- unless you realign the track leading into the diverging leg, you will end up with a much sharper curve than is built into the Atlas curves, which might cause even more problems. I would use either Peco or Walthers Track #4 turnouts, which will cause the least amount of rework.

Of course, if your problem is that your equipment is too long for the 18" curves that are part of the Snap Switches, you have a problem that is harder to solve, as you will most likely need to move to 22" curves and #6 turnouts.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

So you see how “economical“ turnouts perform…..that should be the first clue to upgrade….


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

beepjuice said:


> Here's another helper video


Unfortunately, that video is pretty good home grown idea for inserting a "tenstioning" spring in the turnout to help keep the points snug against the rails. This may help somewhat -- although unlike the guy in the video, most of us use roadbed under our tracks, which makes creating clearance for that spring a little less straightforward than shown.

More importantly, though, he's modifying a Custom Line turnout, which is already a huge step up from the lowly Snap Switch. But he doesn't address flange and frog issues that often plague Atlas products, nor does he address the riveted hinges, which are prone to getting sloppy over time. To these problems, the Snap Switch adds very short point rails, which cause an abrupt lurch when the loco enters the turnout, and the fact that there is not notch in the stock rails for the point rails to nest into (you can see these on the Custom Line if you watch the video closely).

TractionFan's self-published ebook on fixing Atlas turnouts is much better.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)




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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Here are some pics of my trouble areas. Actually, one is a pic of one of my control panels. I'm thinking a lot of my issues are the under table Atlas switch machines. Sometimes the points don't close tight enough. But my derail issue seems to be at the frog. I found a pretty good deal on some Blue Point turnout controllers so I will install a couple and see if it helps at all ! Almost all of my locos are older Athean Blue Box GPs,F7s etc. I've upgraded the motors and installed decoders so they seem to run pretty ,at least for my satisfaction. I will try to do a video of some derailing happening !!!


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Those aren’t the snap switches.

Two tips …

1.Use a small bubble level and make sure the railheads are level. If they aren’t use shims under the ties. The plastic frogs may require a light sanding if they are proud of the railheads.










2.Use the NMRA gauge. I shimmed the guard rails so the tolerances are tighter.










The only time I have derailments at turnouts is user error.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> Now that I finally got a couple locomotives running on my layout I'm having a lot of derailments at a lot of my turnouts. Yes, the ARE Atlas. I first built my layout in the 70s and they were in my price range LOL So my question is, are there any economical turnouts out there that I could start replacing a few at a time? Right now I have #4s, #6s & #8s. (Atlas) #s . My only concern would be tearing up my road bed. I don't mind cutting track or filling in track. It would be the radius of the turnout to fit the road bed that would matter ! Any insight or suggestions would be appreciated !


zeetrains;

Atlas sells two different product lines of turnouts in HO-scale. Custom Line, and Snap Switch. Which do you have?

If the frogs are metal and have a little lug on the side then they are custom line, and they probably have two straight routes & no curved route. They would also have come without switch machines attached.

If your turnouts have black plastic frogs, one 18" radius curved route, & one 9" straight route, and came with a big black switch machine attached to one side, then they are snap switches. 

The reason this matters is your statement about tearing up roadbed. Chances are, you will have to tear up a little roadbed, and some track, in order to make any replacement turnout fit. (other than another identical Atlas) That "one straight route & one curved route geometry is unique to the Atlas Snap Switch turnouts. The Atlas Custom Line turnouts with two straight routes would be a little bit easier in terms of fitting a better brand of turnout into roughly the same place, but no other brand will be an exact "drop in" fit.

Good quality turnouts are not cheap. The better brands are Peco, Micro Engineering, and Walthers. Any of these will cost about $20-$30 each. How many turnouts do you have? If its more than a very few, then replacing the Atlas turnouts you have with something better will be quite expensive.
The attached file "All about turnouts" has a lot of information on turnouts in general and my quality rating of seven common brands.

There are three lower cost options.

1) Fix the turnouts you now have.
The attached file "Improving Atlas turnouts " shows how to do this.

2) Make your own turnouts.
This is a lot cheaper, about $5 each for materials, BUT there's a catch. You will need to invest a lot of time. Its also only economical if you are replacing approximately ten, or more, turnouts. (Most layouts have at least ten.) There is another advantage to this option. You can make your turnouts any shape you want, including the exact same shape as an Atlas turnout so it actually can be a "drop in" fit. The attached file, "How I scratchbuild turnouts" explains this in depth, including cost of materials, tools needed, and the simple fact that anybody can do it. Its not hard.

3) Buy used turnouts on E-bay.
Risky, since you won't really know what you're getting.

Good Luck & Have Fun

Traction Fan 🙂


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

traction fan said:


> zeetrains;
> 
> Atlas sells two different product lines of turnouts in HO-scale. Custom Line, and Snap Switch. Which do you have?
> 
> ...


Thanks much.....very useful information !


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

zeethtrains said:


> Thanks much.....very useful information !


OK, I've determined my turnouts are all Atlas snap switches not custom line. So now my options are, convert to Atlas Custom Line or there are lots of Shinohara's on ebay ! I would need 18 turnouts and certainly can't afford PECO !


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

If cost is a factor, and if you’re a kit builder, Central Valley might be worth considering. I think the tie sets start around $15. Rail is sold separately (weathered or non-weathered). There are youtube vids on building them to give you an idea of skill level required.

Walthers/Shinohara have… from my experience, lower profile ties which creates a step in the rails when butted to Atlas flex. Maybe that was a temporary quality issue that was corrected, and maybe not? If still present you’ll have to shim every turnout. They work well though otherwise.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> OK, I've determined my turnouts are all Atlas snap switches not custom line. So now my options are, convert to Atlas Custom Line or there are lots of Shinohara's on ebay ! I would need 18 turnouts and certainly can't afford PECO !


zeetrains;

Your choice, of course, but since you have 18 turnouts, and cost is a big factor, why not just fix the Atlas Snap Switch turnouts you already have in place? This is by far the easiest, and least expensive, option. You might want to try modifying one of your Snap Switches using the info from my file. Then see how it performs.
Atlas Custom Line will be a small step up the quality ladder from Atlas Snap Switches, but Shinohara is a better quality turnout than either Atlas. I have not used Atlas Custom Line turnouts myself, since they are not available in my scale (N) Neither the Atlas Custom Line,* or Shinohara, turnouts will be a drop-in fit for snap switches. You will need to take up some track, and probably a bit of roadbed, in order to fit either of them. Also both come without switch machines, so include that considerable cost when planning your course of action. You may be able to use your existing Atlas switch machines on Atlas Custom Line* turnouts, but they will not be strong enough to operate the Shinohara turnouts. Those Atlas switch machines are the weakest on the market. That's why Atlas Snap Switches have unusually loose point rails with rivets at both ends. Its only by making them "super loosey goosey" That the rather whimpey Atlas switch machine can move them. Shinohara, and most other decent turnouts, need a stronger switch machine, like a Tortoise motor. (approx. $18 ea.)
New, retail, Peco & Shinohara should be fairly close in price. I don't use E-bay, so I don't know about prices there.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do;

Traction Fan

* If you decide to buy Atlas Custom Line turnouts, make sure of what you're getting. I listed the differences between actual Custom Line turnouts, and Snap Switch turnouts, in my earlier response. There is mis-labeling however. I have seen turnouts labeled "Custom Line" that were physically identical to Snap Switches.
Buying them would be like replacing your 18 Snap Switches with 18 new Snap Switches at the higher price Atlas charges for "Custom Line" + inflation from when you built your layout up to today. Why spend that amount of money for no improvement?  Frankly, I don't see any point in replacing Atlas with Atlas, even real custom line Atlas, but that's up to you.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

traction fan said:


> zeetrains;
> 
> Your choice, of course, but since you have 18 turnouts, and cost is a big factor, why not just fix the Atlas Snap Switch turnouts you already have in place? This is by far the easiest, and least expensive, option. You might want to try modifying one of your Snap Switches using the info from my file. Then see how it performs.
> Atlas Custom Line will be a small step up the quality ladder from Atlas Snap Switches, but Shinohara is a better quality turnout than either Atlas. I have not used Atlas Custom Line turnouts myself, since they are not available in my scale (N) Neither the Atlas Custom Line,* or Shinohara, turnouts will be a drop-in fit for snap switches. You will need to take up some track, and probably a bit of roadbed, in order to fit either of them. Also both come without switch machines, so include that considerable cost when planning your course of action. You may be able to use your existing Atlas switch machines on Atlas Custom Line* turnouts, but they will not be strong enough to operate the Shinohara turnouts. Those Atlas switch machines are the weakest on the market. That's why Atlas Snap Switches have unusually loose point rails with rivets at both ends. Its only by making them "super loosey goosey" That the rather whimpey Atlas switch machine can move them. Shinohara, and most other decent turnouts, need a stronger switch machine, like a Tortoise motor. (approx. $18 ea.)
> ...


Thanks Traction Fan.....I'm thinking on going with Shinohara


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Unfortunately, Mr. Shinohara decided to retire about 3 years ago and shut down the business. You may still find some of those turnouts hanging around, but no new ones are being produced. Walthers purchased their tooling and has contracted a company to make their Walthers Track turnouts to the old spec. Unfortunately, they're having supply chain issues so the supply is scarce at tehe moment.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Unfortunately, Mr. Shinohara decided to retire about 3 years ago and shut down the business. You may still find some of those turnouts hanging around, but no new ones are being produced. Walthers purchased their tooling and has contracted a company to make their Walthers Track turnouts to the old spec. Unfortunately, they're having supply chain issues so the supply is scarce at tehe moment.


Good to know .....Thanks Much !


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## Kenb782 (11 mo ago)

zeethtrains said:


> Now that I finally got a couple locomotives running on my layout I'm having a lot of derailments at a lot of my turnouts. Yes, the ARE Atlas. I first built my layout in the 70s and they were in my price range LOL So my question is, are there any economical turnouts out there that I could start replacing a few at a time? Right now I have #4s, #6s & #8s. (Atlas) #s . My only concern would be tearing up my road bed. I don't mind cutting track or filling in track. It would be the radius of the turnout to fit the road bed that would matter ! Any insight or suggestions would be appreciated !


Well I had the same problem. I switched from plastic wheels to metal (non-magnetic) and made each car weight according to NMRA specifications. My problems evaporated! One thing I found is the NMRA standards appear to me that of an empty rail car. Growing up near rail yards and shipping loading points, I’ve seen loaded rail cars depress rail and ties nearly as much as a heavy steamer. So, I’m of the mind that exceeding the NMRA standards only impacts the amount your locomotive will pull. But, isn’t that the reason real railroads use more than a single engine and developed consisting? Dur I routinely consist smaller engines, even stermers. 
Check out my ideas for your self. You might be surprised!


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## MitchR (Sep 27, 2020)

zeethtrains said:


> Now that I finally got a couple locomotives running on my layout I'm having a lot of derailments at a lot of my turnouts. Yes, the ARE Atlas. I first built my layout in the 70s and they were in my price range LOL So my question is, are there any economical turnouts out there that I could start replacing a few at a time? Right now I have #4s, #6s & #8s. (Atlas) #s . My only concern would be tearing up my road bed. I don't mind cutting track or filling in track. It would be the radius of the turnout to fit the road bed that would matter ! Any insight or suggestions would be appreciated !


Thus 70’s junk drove me out of N Gauge for 40 years.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

beepjuice said:


> Here's another helper video


beepjuice;

"Interesting" video, but not accurate, or complete. It also includes what I would consider some rather bad advice. What this guy has done is add a bistable spring to some old Atlas HO turnouts, both Custom Line and Snap Switches. The spring he makes from a paper clip performs the same function as the factory-installed bistable springs in Peco, Micro Engineering and the new Walthers turnouts. Not a bad Idea, though hardly an original one. Model railroader ran an article many years ago called "Finger Flipping Turnouts" using the same principal but with smaller wire inserted from the top, instead of the bottom, of the turnout. All that's fine, and may well help reduce the number of "picking the points" derailments. However he then claims this makes the turnouts perfectly reliable, and tells viewers not to believe anyone who says that a modeler should use "expensive" (aka better made, more reliable, turnouts) This is both arrogant, and untrue.
He also does exactly nothing to fix one of the most common causes of derailments on Atlas (& some other) turnouts. The over-wide flangeways cause a lot of derailments. They can be easily fixed by gluing styrene shims into the flangeways. Many modelers have done this, with great success. He doesn't even mention it. There are some other problems with Atlas turnouts that are not mentioned either, like sagging point rails, rivet wear, poor electrical contact between the point & closure rails, and, in the case of the snap switch, a very weak switch machine.
In fact, there is no reference to switch machines, some of which cause modelers to intentionally remove the spring from a Peco, Micro Engineering, or Walthers turnouts. All in all I rate this video as poor and deceptive. It covers only one possible problem, and recommends only one fix, (the spring) which, depending on whether the viewers plan to use a switch machine or not, may not be necessary, or, in some cases even desirable.

I give it multiple thumbs down. 

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

MitchR said:


> Thus 70’s junk drove me out of N Gauge for 40 years.


 I think the OP was using HO-scale, not N-scale.

Traction Fan


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

I think over weighting the cars will also wear out the axel journals much faster.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I'm having a similar problem with Walthers brand turnouts. I have 15 of them and 2 are "acting up" I tweaked the ends slightly and made it much better but not perfect. The switch rail isnt notched or recessed. I can switch out a few to replace the ones on the main line. The same cars were trying to go the other direction on each turnout. I pulled these cars off and noticed the "flanges" on the truck wheels were as sharp as a knife. I switched out some of the wheels for wider flange wheel/axles and that worked much better. I have no issues with the turnouts that have a straight piece on either end of them. Problems are with a section of curved track attached to the turnout. The locomotives are not a problem at all. I may reshape the layout to place these turnout's on straight pieces of track. I hate derailments with a passion.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Tigger said:


> I'm having a similar problem with Walthers brand turnouts. I have 15 of them and 2 are "acting up" I tweaked the ends slightly and made it much better but not perfect. The switch rail isnt notched or recessed. I can switch out a few to replace the ones on the main line. The same cars were trying to go the other direction on each turnout. I pulled these cars off and noticed the "flanges" on the truck wheels were as sharp as a knife. I switched out some of the wheels for wider flange wheel/axles and that worked much better. I have no issues with the turnouts that have a straight piece on either end of them. Problems are with a section of curved track attached to the turnout. The locomotives are not a problem at all. I may reshape the layout to place these turnout's on straight pieces of track. I hate derailments with a passion.


Again, "Walthers" turnouts covers at least 3 different model numbers for each turnout number and orientation (RH or LH). The oldest models can be a little problematic, but I've never had the issues you describe in 20 years of using them. You're providing some vague reference to a piece of curved track next to a turnout. This may, in fact be either creating a kink in your rails, an unacceptably sharp turn on the diverging route, or an S curve, all of which would cause problems which aren't the fault of the turnouts themselves. Also sounds like some of your rolling stock is out of spec and needs upgraded RP-25 conforming wheels.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

The turnouts are all brand new. Walthers 433-3003 remote control turnout, code 100.. 22 inch radius curves, turning left in a 180 degree turn. The turnout is right hand and it's the first piece of track after the turn. Going off the theory of the tapered wheel, that would push the wheel towards the outside of the curve and grab the moveable switch rail. I have many used cars, about 40. I spent a couple of days cleaning the wheels. Soaked them in Dawn dish soap/ water for hours. Then wiped them clean with Goo Gone. This worked awesome. Very little elbow grease to make them look like new. Then wiped them in rubbing alcohol. The axle tips were dipped in powered graphite. They spin for at least 5 seconds when ya give them a whirl. I have no plans on upgrading to better wheels. They cost too much. My plan is from now on to purchase higher quality cars to begin with. In the long run its a better bargain. Adding new couplers, body mounting them, then adding new wheels or new trucks makes some of these tyco/cox/bachmann and others no longer a good deal. I have a large outer loop that has zero turnouts, these cars will spend their time on that line. I have 18 cars on it now( all tyco and cox) that are the billboard cars. kelloggs/jello/ baby ruth etc, and never had a derailment. Wife likes the looks of the colorful billboard cars, so I have to keep them.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I may try to notch the rail so moveable switch sits "inside it " better. I purchased quite a bit of old tyco track when I decided to get back into model RR ing last fall. Then later decided on DCC and all new everything. The old Tyco turnout rails are all notched and they still all work. I may try one or 2 in this spot and see whats what. For now the simple fix is an axle with wider flanges. I pulling about 11 cars and its always the same car in the same spot that starts the derailment. I swapped axles and that car pulls thru w/o an issue. Only problem is that I have 3 or 4 more cars to swap out axles. This afternoon I will run only new cars on that loop and see if there is still a problem. Im not complaining at all. I love to tweak things and make them work better. Solving issues is quite enjoyable.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Tigger said:


> I'm having a similar problem with Walthers brand turnouts. I have 15 of them and 2 are "acting up" I tweaked the ends slightly and made it much better but not perfect. The switch rail isnt notched or recessed. I can switch out a few to replace the ones on the main line. The same cars were trying to go the other direction on each turnout. I pulled these cars off and noticed the "flanges" on the truck wheels were as sharp as a knife. I switched out some of the wheels for wider flange wheel/axles and that worked much better. I have no issues with the turnouts that have a straight piece on either end of them. Problems are with a section of curved track attached to the turnout. The locomotives are not a problem at all. I may reshape the layout to place these turnout's on straight pieces of track. I hate derailments with a passion.


Tigger;

I have used the older "Walther's" turnouts, which were actually made by Shinohara, and distributed here by Walthers. I have not used the latest Walther's turnouts, which are made by someone other than Shinohara. I note, from CTValley's response, that there may well be a third manufacturer of "Walther's" turnouts, so I'm not at all sure what kind of Walthers turnout you are dealing with. Some clear closeup photos would help.

You mentioned that "the switch rail isn't notched, or recessed." The (two) rails that should be notched are actually called the "stock rails", but that's just a technicality, I know which rails you mean. The lack of notches can itself be a significant problem, but there may be others as well.
The old Shinohara/Walthers turnouts did have notches. You, can, (and in my opinion should) add the notches yourself pretty easily if you are reasonably careful.

Mark the spot where the moving point rail touches the stock rail when the points are thrown. Do this on both routes that the points can be thrown to. Then, use a tiny miniature file to remove a bit of the inside of the stock rail just deep enough for the point rail to fit into the notch. The tips of the point rails should be fairly sharp, (often they are pretty blunt on some commercial turnouts) File them if necessary.

Imagine that you are a wheel flange, approaching the point. What's ahead of you that you can possibly snag on, or get on the wrong side of? The answer should be "nothing", which is the reason behind a thin point rail end, hidden inside a notch in the stock rail.
Filing the notch may require removing a tie, right under the notch marking, to let the file get where it needs to work. The removed tie can be put back in place after.

The thin point rail tips, and the notched stock rails, do a lot to eliminate "Picking the points" a very common turnout-caused derailment, where some wheels go onto one route through the turnout, and other wheels try to get onto the other route.

This same thing can happen further into the turnout, at the frog. Again you may see part of the train trying to follow one route, and the rest trying to go the other way, causing cars to derail. The cure here is to use an NMRA gauge to check the width (and depth. for another problem*) of the "flangeways" that are part of the frog itself, and those right next to the stock rails, directly opposite the frog. With the exception of Micro Engineering, every brand of commercial turnout I've ever dealt with has flangeways that are both too wide, and too deep, to meet the standards built into the NMRA gauge. Again, I'm not familiar with whichever Walthers turnout is giving you problems, but it couldn't hurt to check. Another potential cause of the same problem is the distance between the wheels. This is called the wheel "gauge" and is critical. You can check the gauge of all the wheels, the track gauge, and a bunch of critical areas on your turnouts, all using the same NMRA gauge. This essential tool costs about $12 and is available from www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com
The files below explain more about turnouts. A lot of the information in the "Improving Atlas turnouts" file actually applies to other brands of turnouts too. Starting on page 8, you will see photos of how the NMRA gauge is used to check flangeways, points, and other areas of a turnout.
Other info in this file, concerning rivet pivots on the point rails, and adding jumper wires from the closure rails to the point rails, can be ignored, unless your turnouts have rivets. I suspect your Tyco turnouts may be nearly identical to the Atlas "Snap Switch" but that's just my guess. 

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 🙂

* Too deep flangeways cause cars to bounce vertically, and sway side-to-side, when passing through a turnout.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I messing with it right now. Tried to file the leading edge a bit to help ease the wheels in and it was disaster. Every car derailed. Next is a swap with one that's in a "yard" . I added a 6 inch piece of straight track right in front of the turnout and that seemed to help, only 2 cars derailed out of 12. but the turnout still needs to be put where it will rarely be used. This turnout will be the experimental one. I will try to recess the main rail of it and if I mess it up, oh well. You tube video shows a person adding a tension spring to it. I'll have to re-watch that video again. I might have to dig out my dremel tool.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Tigger-- I'm glad you have done so much work on your wheels, but on my layout, any car that routinely picks turnouts would be banished until I had replaced the wheels... no matter how much effort I had put into making the wheels spin well -- crappy flanges, poor profiles, and out of spec axles aren't easy to correct. But you have to do what you feel is right on your layout. Obviously, I can't really tell what might be happening without a picture, but there are also lots of track configuration issues that can make an otherwise good turnout into a problem child. I mentioned a frpew of these in my post.

Since I'm using several (6) of the new Walthers Track models on my layout without issues, I'm inclined to think it isn't an inherent problem with the turnouts.

And to address Traction Fan's observation, yes, the Walther's Track models use a different supplier, since Shinohara quit making track a couple of years ago.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

> Adding new couplers, body mounting them, then adding new wheels or new trucks makes some of these tyco/cox/bachmann and others no longer a good deal


Hate to tell you, but those cars were never a good deal, even when new, at any price…..unfortunately, back when they were new, there weren’t many better cars out there…..


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I "jumped" back into trains not knowing any other brands existed. My bad. Should have joined this forum first before any purchase. Some of the cars will get upgraded wheels. But not all. What brand is considered a good upgrade for wheels? Some of the tyco cars came with metal wheels on them. Must have been replaced by the previous owner(s) I want to get all the track issues solved before I start the foam track bed/ballast process. This is the first time the layout has had cars on it. I was running just the loco's so far. I ran a few of the brand new cars yesterday and they didn't like that turnout either. Seeing that is 90 plus degrees out today and extremely humid, I'll get a lot accomplished today down in the basement.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

How about a photo or two of the problem area?


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I swapped out the suspect switch with another one that has never been run on. The first 9 cars made it thru then the last 3 decided to look like a country dog going to town. I'll try to get some pics a little later on. I removed the loco and pulled the cars thru by hand. Same cars tried to take the other direction every time. I believe its the wheels These are 12 hopper cars of different brands. I added some weight but that didnt help. Gonna try that spring trick I saw on you tube. It keeps slight tension on the moveable rails. Then its new wheel time. Another option is to remove these switches and alter the layout.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)




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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Most of the rolling stock being sold now have metal wheels….Athearn/Roundhouse, Bachmann, Altas, Intermountain, Tangent, ExactRail, Walthers....

And those are all RTR…..new kits are very rare now….


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

The biggest problem I see is you are using Atlas switch machines?? if I am seeing things right.
Not the best option in my option, not strong enough to hold the points tight against the stock rails.
Might try a better switch machine before doing much else.

*Edit* I just looked up the Walthers 433-3003 remote control turnout , sure doesn't look like any
Walthers turnout I've seen. Looks like a life like turnout which isn't much better than an Atlas snap switch.
You can mess with these till the cows come home and still not have a good turnout.

Magic


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I still have the cardboard sleeves that they all came in. They are Walthers for sure. The problem is with the wheels of these very expensive high end tyco rolling stock. lol. The first switch was altered me and that didnt turn out so well. The second switch worked fine with the new box cars. They are Atlas, Athearns, and a Walthers Which car brand(s) is considered high end and what makes...


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Move switch 1 (long blue arrow) "upwards" to where the short blue arrow is.

Change switch 2 (red arrow) from "right-hand" to "left hand".

Make the "straight route" (at red arrow switch) from switch 1 towards "the bridge" -- opposite of what it is now.









Looks like you have the same design problem "further away" (upwards when viewing pic) with the track going in the other direction...


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I'll give that a try.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

It was worth a try. Still the same cars are having problems. The flanges on these plastic wheel are very sharp and pointed. I'm going to get some metal wheels. That really should solve the problem. In the future, no more Tyco cars for me. When I push on the sliding part of the switch, they dont have a problem. I may even sell some of these hopper cars. I have some tanker cars that I repainted and those will get the metal wheels.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I hate to break this to you, Tigger, but these are NOT new Walthers turnouts. The 433-3003 can't even be called "new, old stock"... more like "new, prehistoric stock". The 433 manufacturer ID refers to the old LifeLike track products, not the newer Walthers Shinohara or Walthers Track products. These have a manufacturer ID of 933 for Walthers Shinohara and 948 for the new Walthers Track line, and a 5 digit product number (100xx for Code 100 products and 830xx for code 83). Unfortunately, the Lifelike turnouts are as bad as Atlas Snap Switches, so it doesn't surprise me that you're having trouble with them. Both the Walthers Shinohara and Walthers Track have notched stock rails, and the Walthers Track products also have a spring to hold the points in place. Neither is designed to work with those Atlas-style above-the-table switch machines (a good thing, in my book). If you can get your hands on some of the new Walthers Track turnouts, give them a try. They're awesome -- which is why I was confused that you were having trouble.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

When Walthers bough Life Like they just rebranded the Life Like turnout to the Walthers name.
Those turnouts are still Life Like and are bottom of the barrel stuff.
For a true Walthers Shinohara or Walthers Track products turnout there is no need to 
change wheels because of the flanges being too sharp.
You may get them running OK but they will cause you problems in the future.
They are a very cheep turnout no matter what the name.

By the way you seem to have good start to a nice layout.  
Keep us posted.


Magic


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

As per car affordability, RTR Athearn for example I can get for about $25-$30 per car. 
Alternatively at train shows I can get Athearn BB kits (same car unassembled) for $6-$9 per car. By the time I add metal wheels and Kadees I’m still ahead by $10. 
That translates to buy 2 get 1 free. 
The same can be said for Bowser RTR vs Bowser Kit. typically $9 for kit version.
Same for Walthers but they’re “new old stock” that were often never touched. $9 roughly.
Roundhouse/MDC same thing.

Like the school bus song as a kid, the wheels on the track are what makes trains go around. Those are really the two most important things, good wheels and good track work. If you have those you’re pretty well set. Everything else is secondary in terms of operation.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Not exactly what I wanted to hear. I cant return them, its been too long. I'll have to make them work somehow. That spring trick might be worth a try. Then I will file a recess in one and see which works better. Or maybe they will get both? Some are soldered up already, but that isn't a big deal. The track will eventually sit on a foam bed, so I could hollow out a spot for that "spring" paper clip. I cant remember who I purchased these from, but it wasn't amazon, or I'd leave a 1 star review. Every one of these turnouts had 1 rail longer than the other so they had gaps when connecting to the straight pieces of track. I had to file them square/even. I just checked the box of old stuff that I acquired and there is a brass lifelike turnout in there, busted of course and it resembles these "new" walthers . Oh well, live and learn. I'm sure I'll tweak them and get them in good working order. Thanks for all the research and info on these sub par turnouts.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Honestly I think if the track is well done (with decent TOs), the car wheels in gauge & metal, then things should run good even if they’re underweighted Tycos with horn hooks. 
Track work as I touched on in “make or break.” It’s the foundation of everything. Cheap cars run fine on good track, but awesome cars don’t run on bad track. What I’m getting at is budget. Don't skimp on track. You can skimp on car quality with good track, but don’t skimp on track. Kind if like a structure. 
“The King said it was daft to build a castle in the swamp. So I built it anyway! Just to show em! It sank into the swamp. So I built another one! That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the third one, stayed up!” Don’t be that guy.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Just started the spring tension trick and I have 2 turnouts removed. Flipped them upside-down and sure as heck they are stamped "made in China" and "Lifelike". The track is Atlas Snap Track, Nickle Silver and it seems to be well made. Code 100.


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## MidwestMikeGT (Jan 4, 2021)

Tigger said:


> It was worth a try. Still the same cars are having problems. The flanges on these plastic wheel are very sharp and pointed. I'm going to get some metal wheels. That really should solve the problem. In the future, no more Tyco cars for me. When I push on the sliding part of the switch, they dont have a problem. I may even sell some of these hopper cars. I have some tanker cars that I repainted and those will get the metal wheels.
> View attachment 586944


Consider just changing the wheel sets to Intermountain wheels....just a thought.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Used a small safety pin with the head and sharp point cut off as a spring. These lifelike switches use a very flexible rod so I really cant put much spring pressure on the rails or the rod just flexes and it wont switch. Good news ( somewhat) 3 laps without a derailment, then the last car needed a beer run and didnt tell the others. Derail. I then added a small amount of weight and that seemed to help. I'm gaining ground at least. A little tweak with some needle nose pliers helped also. Hope the new wheels will help. Cant hurt at least. Noticed the axles on these plastic wheels are wobbling when ya give them a spin. That might contribute as well. I ordered new wheels yesterday, I think they are Tangent brand. I'll give Intermountian a try next time I order.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Just started the spring tension trick and I have 2 turnouts removed. Flipped them upside-down and sure as heck they are stamped "made in China" and "Lifelike". The track is Atlas Snap Track, Nickle Silver and it seems to be well made. Code 100.


Made in China isn't the issue. LifeLike definitely is. Things made in China, with proper design spec and quality control, are just fine. Atlas Snap Track, with the exception of their turnouts, isn't bad stuff.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I was just posting what it said on the back. Hard to buy most anything that isnt made there.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

The Walmarts would be empty otherwise….


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Tigger said:


> I messing with it right now. Tried to file the leading edge a bit to help ease the wheels in and it was disaster. Every car derailed. Next is a swap with one that's in a "yard" . I added a 6 inch piece of straight track right in front of the turnout and that seemed to help, only 2 cars derailed out of 12. but the turnout still needs to be put where it will rarely be used. This turnout will be the experimental one. I will try to recess the main rail of it and if I mess it up, oh well. You tube video shows a person adding a tension spring to it. I'll have to re-watch that video again. I might have to dig out my dremel tool.


Tigger;

Since filing the points thinner made things worse, is it possible that the points are not ending up right against the stock rails? Which side of the point rails did you file? The filing should be done on the inside surface of the rail, not the outside. I have also found that it helps to carefully bend each thinned point slightly outward, to help it tightly touch the stock rail. If there is a gap between point & stock rail when the turnout is set for a given route, that might explain why every car now derails.

Using a test turnout is a very good idea.
The YouTube video earlier in this thread shows a paper clip being used as a spring. I think that might be a bit drastic, like swatting flies with a hammer.
I recommend using something thinner & springier like a short piece of thin music wire. The factory-installed springs in Peco and Micro Engineering turnouts are a lot smaller wire than the stuff used to make paper clips. I also commented on the article, not because the guy's idea wouldn't work, but because he claimed that just adding a spring would solve all turnout problems. This simply is not true.
Adding a spring won't cure flangeways that are too wide, or wheels that are out of gauge for example. Also adding a spring increases the load a switch machine has to overcome to move the points. The Atlas (and apparently Tyco) switch machine is very weak. It may not be able to move the points against the resistance of a spring, especially a thick spring made from a paper clip. In the video, the guy does not use the weak Atlas electric switch machine at all. He moves the points by hand. Its also a lot easier to add a spring on top of the turnout, instead of underneath, like in the video.

In my (perhaps less-than-humble 😄) opinion The best cure for turnout problems is to check all the things in the "Improving Atlas turnouts" file I sent you, with the NMRA gauge shown in the photos. (perhaps skipping the jumper wires & rivet elimination, your call.) That procedure will lead you through the checks & fixes that will make your turnouts more reliable. None of the material in the file is new, or invented by me. Various model railroaders have been making some of the same modifications for years. Most have been written about in the hobby press too. All I did was assemble the info and test that it works well, then put it out there to help people in your situation. With the popularity of the Atlas snap switch (It's cheap, in both senses of the term.) Many have found out the hard way about the same problems you're dealing with.
I'm not familiar with Tyco turnouts, but from your photo, they are similar in design & appearance, and in low quality level, to Atlas Snap Switch turnouts shown in my file. Similar turnouts, same problems, same fixes.

If you decide to add a notch in the stock rail to accept a point rail, (good idea) I don't recommend using a Dremel tool.(possibly a bad idea, unless you are very experienced and skilled with a Dremel.) It can be done that way, but a miniature file is a lot safer in terms of not damaging your turnout. Again, your idea of a "test turnout" is a very sensible one.


Traction Fan


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

The Atlas track is just fine, it's the turnouts that are the problem.
You'll be happy going with metal wheels, roll much better and stay cleaner.
Might even help with the turnouts.
One thing that would help the turnouts would be to use Tortoise switch machines.
Kind o' expensive but would hold the points tight against the stock rails.

Traction Fans tips are great and may help.

You're not the first one to "Live and learn" in this hobby, we all have been there. 😢
Good luck and keep at it.

Magic


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I filed the outer edge on just one turnout, it also was tweaked with needle nose pliers. That turnout is now in a spot where it ill rarely get used and when it does, it will be in the direction that wont cause a problem. I will have to purchase a very thin file. Thought I had one at one time but I have 2 kids that access my tool box- if ya follow me. lol. Thanks for the turnout info, very helpful. Today all the tyco hopper cars are coming off that section of track and all my new cars will take a try with the altered turnout. Some came with metal wheels and all of them have body mounted kadee couplers. I finally found my Dremel kit and there isn't anything inside that would help with this issue.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Peco turnouts cost about the same as the Lifelike Walthers brand. If I only knew. lol.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Good news to report. The new cars did not derail on this turnout. 1 small mishap, 1 coupler screw wasn't long enough and it fell out. All fixed. I see that the air hoses hit the turnout rails and need to be either trimmed up or bent up. Bending would require disassembling them, They are 1 tough little piece. Anyway, new wheels made the difference, even though half of the new cars are metal wheels. Later this week the new cars will all be metal. Still debating on whether to put metal wheel on the tyco hopper cars or sell them ( probably around xmas time) I have 1 new SOO Line hopper (Atlas) and its a "10" compared to the tyco cars that Ill rate at a "4". Model RRing is so much more fun when you solve problems and it gives you a good feeling. Now on to the next phase. track bed / more track feed wires/ and finish up the soldering. But first all the other turnouts will get a big workout/test.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Tigger said:


> I filed the outer edge on just one turnout, it also was tweaked with needle nose pliers. That turnout is now in a spot where it ill rarely get used and when it does, it will be in the direction that wont cause a problem. I will have to purchase a very thin file. Thought I had one at one time but I have 2 kids that access my tool box- if ya follow me. lol. Thanks for the turnout info, very helpful. Today all the tyco hopper cars are coming off that section of track and all my new cars will take a try with the altered turnout. Some came with metal wheels and all of them have body mounted kadee couplers. I finally found my Dremel kit and there isn't anything inside that would help with this issue.


 I use sets of miniature files available from Harbor Freight www.harborfreight.com They are not high quality but they do the job well at low cost. Since all files will load up with material fairly quickly, I just throw away those that get beyond cleaning, and use a new set. I buy a few sets whenever I go to my local Harbor Freight store. 
There are even smaller files (sub-miniature?) but they are more expensive and harder to find. I ordered some through my local train store. www.micromark.com is a good source for all sorts of miniature modeling tools.

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Good news to report. The new cars did not derail on this turnout. 1 small mishap, 1 coupler screw wasn't long enough and it fell out. All fixed. I see that the air hoses hit the turnout rails and need to be either trimmed up or bent up. Bending would require disassembling them, They are 1 tough little piece. Anyway, new wheels made the difference, even though half of the new cars are metal wheels. Later this week the new cars will all be metal. Still debating on whether to put metal wheel on the tyco hopper cars or sell them ( probably around xmas time) I have 1 new SOO Line hopper (Atlas) and its a "10" compared to the tyco cars that Ill rate at a "4". Model RRing is so much more fun when you solve problems and it gives you a good feeling. Now on to the next phase. track bed / more track feed wires/ and finish up the soldering. But first all the other turnouts will get a big workout/test.


Tigger;

Good news indeed! Congratulations! Those "air hoses" (actually trip pins) are used for magnetic, delayed uncoupling. They can be bent up a bit while still in the coupler. Put one jaw tip of a pair of small needle-nosed pliers on the little stub of trip pin that just shows above the coupler knuckle. Put the other jaw on the bottom end of the trip pin and GENTLY squeeze the pliers to curl the trip pin up. Some modelers never use the magnetic uncoupling. Instead they insert a small stick into the mated knuckles from above the cars, and twist the stick to uncouple. These folks tend to cut MOST OF the trip pin off, just below the coupler's knuckle. They leave the top part of the trip pin intact, inside the knuckle. Pulling the trip pins out completely may interfere with the operation of the couplers. Don't take your couplers apart. Getting them back together is difficult.

Traction Fan


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Tigger wrote:
_" I see that the air hoses hit the turnout rails and need to be either trimmed up or bent up."_

Kadee makes small fiber washers in two thicknesses that you can use to lift the car body a little, and thus "raise the coupler" so that the actuator (curley-cue) doesn't hit the rails. They go between the truck and the bolster.

Or... another way that I've found useful is to get the Kadee coupler with an "offset shank" that raises the coupler head up. Good for "a bigger raise-up".


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

J.Albert1949 said:


> Tigger wrote:
> _" I see that the air hoses hit the turnout rails and need to be either trimmed up or bent up."_
> 
> Kadee makes small fiber washers in two thicknesses that you can use to lift the car body a little, and thus "raise the coupler" so that the actuator (curley-cue) doesn't hit the rails. They go between the truck and the bolster.
> ...


All fine suggestions as long as raising the entire coupler doesn't get the knuckles of different cars at different heights. The coupler knuckles all have to be at the exact same height to work properly. Different coupler heights can cause "unplanned uncoupling" AKA you leave part of your train behind when you didn't want to. 
Kadee makes a coupler height gauge with a properly mounted coupler at one end, and an anvil-shaped projection at the other end, to set proper car floor height to body-mount couplers.
The Kadee gauge sits on the track to check coupler height. They now make an insulated version, as well as the original, all-metal, one. The gauge also includes a .005" steel shim, which you lay across the rails to check the trip pin height. The trip pin's lower end should just touch the top of this shim. They also sell special needle nosed pliers, with curved jaws, to form those dangling trip pins into the right shape. I've never used these, as I find regular needle nose pliers do this job quite well. I set the coupler knuckle height first, and then the trip pin. 

Traction Fan


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Reviving this thread because of the same problem. All the cars have been updated to Tangent wheels and Kadee couplers. The roll very nice. The derailment's are not with any tyco cars, I keep the few tyco cars I have on a loop with zero turnout's. The newer cars derail. So I've had my fill with trying to tweak these lifelike turnouts. I'm going to purchase new turnouts. Which do I get, the Peco, the Walthers 948 series, or something else? Dont care about the price, just want a dependable turnout with remote control on some and manual on others Been building more than running so it been awhile. For Christmas everyone came down to watch the trains and it was embarrassing to watch in a few areas. Thanks for all the advise so far.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Peco turnouts are the best imho. Just got to remember more than likely the diverging route will probably be different than your lifelike.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Reviving this thread because of the same problem. All the cars have been updated to Tangent wheels and Kadee couplers. The roll very nice. The derailment's are not with any tyco cars, I keep the few tyco cars I have on a loop with zero turnout's. The newer cars derail. So I've had my fill with trying to tweak these lifelike turnouts. I'm going to purchase new turnouts. Which do I get, the Peco, the Walthers 948 series, or something else? Dont care about the price, just want a dependable turnout with remote control on some and manual on others Been building more than running so it been awhile. For Christmas everyone came down to watch the trains and it was embarrassing to watch in a few areas. Thanks for all the advise so far.


Tigger;

If you're determined to replace your turnouts, go with Peco. They come as manual turnouts, with a built-in spring that holds the points in the selected position. Peco makes two types of electric switch machines, to allow remote control. One snaps directly onto the bottom of a Peco turnout, and the other snaps directly onto the side. So, you can make a Peco turnout remote controlled, or leave it manual.
If you want to try fixing the Lifelike (similar to Atlas?) turnouts one more time, then the info in the "Improving Atlas Turnouts" file should help. The other file, "All about turnouts" contains a lot of info on model turnouts in general, and my personal rankings of seven common brands. Spoiler alert. Peco comes out #1 

Traction Fan🙂


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Tigger;
> 
> If you're determined to replace your turnouts, go with Peco. They come as manual turnouts, with a built-in spring that holds the points in the selected position. Peco makes two types of electric switch machines, to allow remote control. One snaps directly onto the bottom of a Peco turnout, and the other snaps directly onto the side. So, you can make a Peco turnout remote controlled, or leave it manual.
> If you want to try fixing the Lifelike (similar to Atlas?) turnouts one more time, then the info in the "Improving Atlas Turnouts" file should help. The other file, "All about turnouts" contains a lot of info on model turnouts in general, and my personal rankings of seven common brands. Spoiler alert. Peco comes out #1
> ...


Don't lifelike turnouts pretty much copy the bad diverging route that snap tacks uses


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> Don't lifelike turnouts pretty much copy the bad diverging route that snap tacks uses


Conductorkev;

Quite possibly, but I don't know for sure. Sometimes a minor brand of turnout seems to follow the Atlas Snap Switch geometry for whatever reason.
I have never seen a Lifelike brand turnout, but I have seen, and had to deal with, more Atlas Snap Switches (in both HO & N-scales) than I care to think about.
I know early Bachmann (before EZ-Track) turnouts were nearly identical to an Atlas Snap Switch.

The bad diverging route is a problem with HO-scale Snap Switches, but not with the N-scale version, and I don't know which scale the OP is using. 
The N-scale Snap Switch has a 19" radius curve in its diverging route. The HO-scale version has a "sort of cobbled together" 18" radius diverging route. While the N-scale Snap Switch's radius is only an inch larger, consider the scale difference. In N-scale a 19" radius curve is roughly equivalent to a 36"- 38" radius curve in HO-scale. That's a very gentle curve. 
I'm not saying that the N-scale Snap Switch doesn't have any problems. It has its full share, but a super tight diverging route isn't one of them.

Traction Fan


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Conductorkev;
> 
> Quite possibly, but I don't know for sure. Sometimes a minor brand of turnout seems to follow the Atlas Snap Switch geometry for whatever reason.
> I have never seen a Lifelike brand turnout, but I have seen, and had to deal with, more Atlas Snap Switches (in both HO & N-scales) than I care to think about.
> ...



U believe I have a cpl ill pull them out a post the pics


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Conductorkev;
> 
> Quite possibly, but I don't know for sure. Sometimes a minor brand of turnout seems to follow the Atlas Snap Switch geometry for whatever reason.
> I have never seen a Lifelike brand turnout, but I have seen, and had to deal with, more Atlas Snap Switches (in both HO & N-scales) than I care to think about.
> ...



Yup almost exactly the same

Here side by side


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

At one point recently, I had 17 turnouts. Then 15. I changed the layout yet again and downsized to 7. I separated 2 loops entirely and they are now non connecting. The "yard" had the most of them and now its downsized as well for more buildings and a coal loading station. I thought I could put the non problematic turnouts in place and be all set. They are all problematic. The mainlines will now get Peco, I'll try to improve the others for the "yard" area. Gonna grab another cup of coffee and read that download you sent. Thanks again for that. The main problem with these turnouts is trying to go straight thru. The cars try to take the turn, usually the short wheel based cars but not always. A derailment every lap gets old, fast.

EDIT: First off, that was very well written. Informative and easy to understand. I will try to get away from the 18 inch radius turnouts altogether, which means another layout change. No problem, I'm getting very used to it. LOL. The main reason for non connecting loops was continuous derailments. I can now hook 1 of them back together ( optional) I have 2 or 3 older brass turnouts, probably Atlas brand. And quite a few new Life like's ( walthers branded) that will probably be sold. I have a box full of brass track that I dont need plus a bunch of tyco cars that I will part with. I will mess with one of those Life-likes today to see if it can be made reliable. Thanks for a very nice write up.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Just to make sure it's clear: Lifelike is a Walther's brand, but it doesn't carry the same quality as the ones that actually carry the Walthers name. Their new turnouts, "Walthers Track", are as good as anything out there, even Peco.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Trying to locate a code 100 Peco turnout isn't going well, I'm not even sure if they make a code 100 turnout. I cant located any info on it. Micro Engineering is "out of stock" for the ones I'm looking at. Walthers Track ( 948 series ) is in stock. I will look at those today. The 433 series are what I have now and the are now called Life Like brand on Amazon, not Walthers.. ( name change?)


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Trying to locate a code 100 Peco turnout isn't going well, I'm not even sure if they make a code 100 turnout. I cant located any info on it. Micro Engineering is "out of stock" for the ones I'm looking at. Walthers Track ( 948 series ) is in stock. I will look at those today. The 433 series are what I have now and the are now called Life Like brand on Amazon, not Walthers.. ( name change?)



They make them my layout has 28 of um so far. They are peco streamline. Get the insulfrog not the electrofrog. 
Not sure if you have larger trains if so definitely get either medium or large of the kind of turnout you want.









Code 100 Medium Radius Turnout - Streamline -- Left Hand, Insulfrog


Nominal radius: 36" (914mm); angle: 12 degrees; length: 8-5/8" (219mm).




www.walthers.com





There is a left hand medium. Walthers has them all in stock fleabay you might get a decent deal when you make a bid on some.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

What switch remote did you use with them? This one?








Walthers Layout Control System -- Horizontal-Mount Switch Machine


Walthers Layout Control System brings you a low-cost solution for easy turnout control for HO, N, Z, S, and O Scale switch machines! The system is expandable at any time to grow with your layout, and can be used with DCC- or DC-power - a DCC accessory decoder is integrated into the switch...




www.walthers.com


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I spent a couple hours working on the "walthers/lifelike" switches and got some to work very good. Lubed them a little. Filed the leading edges inside and out and canted the switch actuator to put a little more pressure on the rails in the straight position. That seemed to help. On some, didnt gain anything. Still derails. I want to save a few that work good for the "yard". The mainlines gets new dependable turnouts. From what I can see online, the remote switches mount under the table and a small rod comes up thru a hole to switch back and forth. ( Walthers 948 series) Is that how that works?


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Tigger said:


> What switch remote did you use with them? This one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you are not running dccuse the peco pl10 for sure









PECO PL10 Switch Machine


Check out the deal on PECO PL10 Switch Machine at Train Sets Only




www.trainsetsonly.com





You can still use those with dcc however it seems the coil decoders are usually more expensive. But pl10 is the best one to use with it tge reson being is there is a spring inside of the turnouts that snaps it to the other side when you throw the turnout. However this spring usually becomes a problem with slow motion like walthers or tortoise. There is a workaround you can do if you want the slow motion machines. You take a paperclip and you fish that spring out. It is in between the throw bar and the first tie away from the points. It's not hard to miss.

If you have more questions let me know


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> They make them my layout has 28 of um so far. They are peco streamline. Get the insulfrog not the electrofrog.
> Not sure if you have larger trains if so definitely get either medium or large of the kind of turnout you want.
> 
> 
> ...


Tigger & Conductorkev;

I'm not sure why Conductorkev says to get Peco Insulfrogs, not the Electrofrogs. Peco's turnouts are all excellent. Including both the Insulfrogs, and the Electrofrogs, as well as the new Unifrogs. The last two, will let you power the frog, if you want to. This is handy if you have older locomotives that only pick up power on a few of their wheels, or short switcher type locos that only have a few wheels at all. (I like powered frogs, and scratchbuild my turnouts with them, but that's just my preference.)
A newer locomotive, with all wheel electrical pickup, won't care if the frog is powered or not. Some of its wheels will still be on powered metal rails even if a few wheels are on a non-powered frog. Since the Peco Insulfrog turnout has a frog made of plastic, it obviously can't be powered. All three are good turnouts, and provided you have all wheel pickup locomotives, any of the three types of Peco turnouts will work fine.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Tigger & Conductorkev;
> 
> I'm not sure why Conductorkev says to get Peco Insulfrogs, not the Electrofrogs. Peco's turnouts are all excellent. Including both the Insulfrogs, and the Electrofrogs, as well as the new Unifrogs. The last two, will let you power the frog, if you want to. This is handy if you have older locomotives that only pick up power on a few of their wheels, or short switcher type locos that only have a few wheels at all. (I like powered frogs, and scratchbuild my turnouts with them, but that's just my preference.)
> A newer locomotive, with all wheel electrical pickup, won't care if the frog is powered or not. Some of its wheels will still be on powered metal rails even if a few wheels are on a non-powered frog. Since the Peco Insulfrog turnout has a frog made of plastic, it obviously can't be powered. All three are good turnouts, and provided you have all wheel pickup locomotives, any of the three types of Peco turnouts will work fine.
> ...



He is running dcc. While it is possible to use them it Is alot of extra uneeded work to get them setup.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I run both DCC and DC at the same time. 1 non connecting loop is DC only. I have a power supply which is The Stapleton 751D and all the stuff that goes with it.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Tigger said:


> I run both DCC and DC at the same time. 1 non connecting loop is DC only. I have a power supply which is The Stapleton 751D and all the stuff that goes with it.



Just in case you don't know the electrofrog ones have power routing so when the points area certain way it causes a short. To remedy that you have to isolate the whole turnout which is why I say the insulfrogs are better...


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

I have been using the Unifrog versions which eliminates the power routing and the need for insulated joiners. The frogs are much shorter so might not need power depending on locos used.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> He is running dcc. While it is possible to use them it Is alot of extra uneeded work to get them setup.


Conductorkev;

I think the only 'extra work" involved with an Electrofrog would be to put insulated rail joiners on each of the two short rails coming out of the frog. I'm not sure about that, as I have Insulfrogs, and Unifrogs, but no Electrofrogs yet. I've seen videos that show how to modify an Electrofrog "for DCC", but I'm not sure that those modifications are necessary. I get your point about the Insulfrogs being simple, but they are also power routing. 
The Unifrogs are configured for DCC (or DC) use right out of the box. In both the Electrofrog, and the Unifrog, powering the frog is optional. They are electrically Insulfrogs out of the box, and become like Electrofrogs only if the frog powering wire is connected. In any case, any of the Peco turnout types will work with DCC or DC, and all three are excellent.

Traction Fan 🙂


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