# "0" or "027"



## Chas.

Greeting gents,
When a youngster back in the '50s, I got a lionel train for Christmas. The inventory is 2025 engine, 6466W tender, 6465 tanker, 6462 gondola, and 6257 caboose - fairly typical train for a lad back about 1955 or so. 

I always thought it was 027 gauge. The more I read, the more I don't know for sure. How can I tell? Do I have to lay out a perfect circle and measure or are there other ways?

I notice there is no "027" forum. Is that because all "027" discussions are lumped in with "0" since they're so similar?

Thank-you for any responses.


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## tjcruiser

Hi Chas,

I'm hoping that you still have your set.

I think you'll find the links below chocked with helpful info. The 2025 was generally sold as an O27 loco, though it'll certainly run OK on traditional O track.

A bit of track lingo ...

Both O27 and O are the same gauge, i.e., distance between the outer rails.

O27 rails were a bit shorter in height than O, made of a lesser-grade sheet metal, and much cheaper for Lionel to manufacture. As the name implies, O27typically makes a circle with an outside radius of 27" (Though you can get larger diameter O27, too!)

Do you still have the track itself? Check its height ... O27 is 7/16" tall, and O is 11/16" tall.

We lump all O stuff into one section on this forum ... O27, O ... 3-rail O, and even 2-rail O ... lots of permutations.

Good luck,

TJ 

SEE LINKS BELOW ...


http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2025_loco.htm

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=2025


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## Boston&Maine

tjcruiser said:


> Do you still have the track itself? Check its height ... O27 is 7/16" tall, and O is 11/16" tall.


Or just look at the metal ties, O27 are brown and O are black...

A lot of times in the postwar era, O27 vs. O was just a technicality... It was more or less a refection of the track which came with a set, and not on the locomotive itself... For example, your 2025 (O27) is the EXACT same locomotive as a 675 (O), besides the number stamped on the side of the cab


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## Chas.

I still have the set, along with another set that I bought for my son back in the early 70s. However, it's his if he ever wants to claim it. About the same compliment of rolling stock, but his engine is a 2037.

Now I'm really confused. The track measures roughly .258 in height, .385-.401 if I include the crosstie. 

7/16 is .437 and 11/16 is .688. I'm way off from that.

It is a 3-rail track with 3 cross-ties per section.

EDIT: The ties are black(or were black). Actually if I remember correctly, they were sort of "blued" like a gun barrel.


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## T-Man

Chas, the rick in recognition is having the two examples. FInd a Lionel Dealer and they will stock both. The difference is evident. Your track has to have Lionel stamped on it, to be such. It could possible be Marx track. The O ties are made a lot heavier than the o27. Also they do not use the same track pins.
Then you can lay out the curves and find the diameter.


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## tjcruiser

Chas,

Per your dims, very likely O27. See:

http://www.lionel.com/ForTheHobbyist/AboutGauge/

Per B&M's comments above, you shouldn't dwell too much on O vs. O27 ... as far as the loco and cars go, it's all pretty much interchangeable. The only exception would be if you had a very large O loco (several drive wheels, long frame base) and were trying to get this to run on O27 tight radii curves ... likely too tight to navigate turns adequately.

But again, likely not any concern for you.

What are your goals with the set? Is it all in OK shape? If you plan to get it up and running again, I'd highly suggest giving the loco a proper tuneup ... cleaning the armature and brushes, lubricating the gears, etc. Not nearly as daunting as it sounds ... several guys here on the forum can step you through the process pretty safely.

Maybe post some pics?

Regards,

TJ


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## Chas.

Yep, tj. I plan to get them running, but they are irwipi's(It Ran When I Parked It). I have 2 grandsons about the same age. Although they're too young now, time flies. The reason I was asking about "0" vs. "027" is that I'd like to buy some more track and didn't want to mis-match. Your idea about CLA (clean, lubricate, adjust) the engines is a good idea and one that I am wanting to attempt. But you are correct, it's a bit daunting. When I am ready to tear them down, I will holler for guidance. It would make a good winter day or rainy day project. Right now, the outdoor work is taking priority.


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## tjcruiser

Chas,

First (and most importantly), conrats on the grandkids ... enjoy!

I was in a similar boat recently ... dusted off a 1958 O27 set that was passed down in my family. I cleaned up the simple oval track to get everything running ... the brown-stype ScotchBrite pads work great for this. However ...

As you think about building a layout, your choice of track type will be influenced by several factors ...

1. Nostalgia ... is it important to you that you use the "very" track that came with that old set? If so, they you'll have to stick with O27-profile for track-to-track (and pin) compatibility.

2A. Layout size ... basic O27 is 27" diameter ... quite tight, and perhaps limiting for larger locos and rolling stock (cars). However, you can also get O27-profile track in larger radii ... 42" diam and 54" diameter.

2B. Layout size (again) ... O is available in 31", 42", 54" and 72" diameters. Those latter radii are well suited (and often necessary) to run larger locos.

3. Cost ... O27 is cheaper than true O track ... both for used stuff and new stuff. Check ebay for sources. Many people (including me) are quite happy to buy decent-shape used track, give it a cleaning, and use it. It's generally pretty servicable, but check to make sure that the ends aren't bent / splayed out too much. In either case (O27 or O), you can pick up big bundles of decent used track pretty cheaply ... ebay, Craigs List, train shows, etc.

4. Durabiliy ... O is certainly beefier.

5. Compatibility with switches (turnouts).

Unless #1 above is a driving factor, you have options both ways.

What we've been talking about is "tube style" track fabricated from extruded sheet metal. Not to complicate things further, but several mfrs offer higher-quality (and much more expensive) O track with much more realistic railroad ties, camoflauged (sp?) middle rails, etc.

Lots of options ...

Good luck!

TJ


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## servoguy

There were at least two different 2025 engines. In the late '40s, Lionel made an O-31 gauge 2-6-2 that had a plate on the bottom that said O Gauge Locomotive. In the '50s they made a 2025 that was an O-27 engine and was a 2-6-4. I have one of each that I got from the original owners, so I think the data is accurate. I think both had whistle tenders. 

Bruce Baker


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## lawnmoose

*0 vs 027 scale*

I, too, had a 027 scale set when I was a boy, and I'm starting to get back into trains again. My understanding was that, even though 0 and 027 stock would run on 0 scale tracks, there was a considerable difference in scale. 0 scale being 1:48 and 027 being 1:64. Thus, 0 scale cars run in an 027 scale train would look large and out of place. I'm buying rolling stock on ebay and getting all kinds of conflicting information as to whether this is true or not. Is there a difference in size (scale) between the two??


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## gunrunnerjohn

There is certainly a difference in "scale O" and O/O27 cars. Truthfully, O/O27 cars seem to run the range of around 1:48 and smaller, but I don't think they get as small as 1:64. Scale O will look larger than the other stuff.

Did you see this thread? Confused about size variances in O gauge? Then look here!


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## T-Man

Size is an issue in buying rolling stock. Size can be by scale size in length or overall as intended for 027 or O or even a different manufacturer. We can help there to show differences.


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## Dave12334

From my understanding of O and O 27 is that it has to do with the wheel flanges or so I was told. This came from a hobby store who said that you can run an o27 train on O gauge ,but you can not run an O scale train on O 27 track as the wheel flanges would hit the ties. I am going to do some more reaserch on that myself as you would think since HO scale has different code track so would O scale.... Hints O and O 27.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've run a ton of O-scale stuff on O27 track, the only issues I ran across are the O27 switches sometimes caused issues for some cars and locomotives. I've never had a wheel flange hit the ties.


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## Jimmy

On the left, an MTH Premiere. On the right a crappy all plastic Loinel from the late 70's. They both are "O" scale but the MTH is way more to scale than the Lionel. The Lionel will go on O27, this MTH will not, it needs O31 and up. When I first started my layout I used some old O27 I had laying around. I soon realized that you can't really run any nice realistic stuff on it. I recommend going with the biggest radius you have room for.

















You can clearly see the difference. And both of these box cars are NOT hi-cubes, so they should be close to the same height. The MTH is a 50 foot and the Lionel, well it's not even supposed to be any feet I guess!


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## Jimmy

In the middle, a Lionel from the 80's. Closer to scale, but still an all plastic toy.


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## Dave12334

Ok guys I did a little bit of googleing and this is what I came up with. O gauge or O 31 track is higher in profile than O 27;however I think the confusion come in when they get their gauges based on the radius of the curve. O 27 = 27 inch curve same for O 31 = 31 inch curve, but you can get either gauge in larger radius just be sure to get the same profile track. They even make an O 31 gauge flex track that comes in 3 foot sections so you can make a custom radius curve if you want. Again there is two different profiles of O scale track O 31 and O 27.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Who makes the flex track that's compatible with Lionel O-31? That would be interesting to me.


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## servoguy

Whoever said that the flanges of an O gauge car will hit the ties of O-27 track doesn't know what he is talking about and I suggest you get advice from someone else. The only issues regarding running O gauge stuff on O-27 track are problems with 1122 switches and the O-27 track being too sharp a curve for some of the larger pieces.


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## Dave12334

Well Gunner, I forgot LOL who makes it I will or you can talk to hobbymasters.com and they can tell you I think it is a company other than the ones I am used to hearing I am pretty sure he said that it was like the flex track atlas sells for ho scale, but he did say that they have it or can get it. That was one of my questions to them. www.hobbymasters.com is the wecsite give them a call or I will tommorow look for my post in O scale. I will get the name of the company from them.


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## Dave12334

Ps; I am talking about three rail track.


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## Dave12334

Ok, here is the link to the flex track if anyone else is intrested that reads this post.
http://www.hobbymasters.com/GarGraves-Phantom-Stainless-Flex-Track-w-Wood-Ties.aspx


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## Konga Man

Jimmy said:


> In the middle, a Lionel from the 80's. Closer to scale, but still an all plastic toy.


They're _all_ toys.  As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing cooler than a string of 4-wheel 80X cars clattering along behind a pre-war steamer.

IMHO, there's no right or wrong on this. I prefer the smaller stock, some guys like the "scale" stuff. _Vive la différence_!

I will say, though, that I prefer O over O27, because a) the 022 is the bomb, and b) it's beefier.


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## Dave12334

I may have already sent you a message just wanted to make sure here is a link so you can check out that flex track I was talking about. 
http://www.hobbymasters.com/GarGraves-Phantom-Stainless-Flex-Track-w-Wood-Ties.aspx


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I was thinking of track that was directly compatible with Lionel track. That would be cool...


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## Big Ed

O track is a little taller then O/27 Dave. Did you see this yet?










Like they said you will have trouble going through the O/27 switches with a lot of O stuff.


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## Handyandy

I have several styles of O-27 track on my layout. Gray ties stamped Lionel, black ties with no name, could be Marx, some with printed wood grain stamped Lionel and some with brown ties marked Lionel, K-Line, or just China. The pieces are only about 3/8" high, not really 7/16" as has been stated. Guess maybe it's measured like plywood or OSB! 

I like O-27 trains. Bigger than HO so easier to see and work with, yet smaller than full O scale. Great for small layouts like mine.


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## servoguy

Andy, I agree with you that there are advantages to O-27. Since it is smaller, you can get more track in a given area which, I'm sure, is why Lionel started making it.


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## plandis

remember track talkers. Scale and Gage are two entirely different terms seemingly confused often. 

also- I think you will see variations in tie color and rail hight depending on which one of the many manufacturers made it -I'm thinking...


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## gunrunnerjohn

I just measured a brand new piece of Lionel brown-tie O27 track, it was .470 from the top of the rails to the table top when held firmly down on the table. That's accurate to .001", so I think that's probably the right number.


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## plandis

rodger that! pretty close...


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