# restoring passenger cars



## rich64 (Dec 13, 2010)

I have 3 old ives passenger cars that i've aquired from a
dumpster along with my 2026. The engine is at a lionel dealer being serviced.
The cars are an ives 1691 and 2 1690's. The body's and chassis are
in good shape but the paint and litho are pretty bad. Two of the cars
look like somebody dumped white oil based paint on them. I don't
know if the litho and lettering are still available for the Ives line. So
my question is should I try and replicate the original look for
nostalgic purpose are just go ahead and copy the lionel paint
scheme with lionel decals.
Rich


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if someone dumped paint on them, I'd start by stripping them, can't hurt. As far as recreating the originals, I'll leave that to the pre-war guys to sort out.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Rich,

I enjoy fiddling with prewar litho tinplate, but unfortunately, there's no easy answer when it comes to litho restoration. On a few of my cars, I've repainted roofs and frames, and simply wiped down and cleaned up the main shell a bit. Sometimes, though, the shell is so far gone, one has to resort to more aggressive work.

Here's an example of a Lionel caboose (which was really a carry over from Ives).

As found:










After a full strip and repaint:










The litho "theme" here is very similar to that on your passenger cars. For my repaint, I did the red, first, then carefully masked off and painted areas in way of doors and windows the cream color. The door and window black "edging" and the rivet pattern was applied simply with a fine point black Sharpie marker. I made the name and number tags in Paint and Photoshop, printed them on matte photo paper, then cut them out and glued them on.

It's certainly not true litho. But using some basic paint / drawing steps, I think the result is somewhat convincing.

You can see the project thread with stepwise info here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3847

I do know that someone was offering film wrap-around "skins" for old litho restoration, though I think (???) that these were for Marx cars. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

I also quasi-restored a little Lionel transformer station house. Like the caboose, the litho was trashed. Here, I used photos of good stations to create accurately-sized "wallpaper" images that I printed up on matte photo paper, and applied to the 4 sides of the house, and to each face of the angled roof. It's not perfect, but better than the starting point.

That thread with pics is here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3871

You could try the "wallpaper" approach. You'd have to very carefully cut out the window opening with an sharp Exacto after the skins were applied.

Some ideas for you to ponder ...

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Don't use alcohol to clean that car with the Sharpie detailing!


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## rich64 (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks TJ, Your photo's didn't open for the caboose you restored.
After a lot of scrubbing in the kitchen sink I found that the
roof on all 3 cars appear to have been painted a dark brown
or maybe black. The exterior's look to be a deep red, similiar
to the color of older toro mowers. The window's are a cream
or dark yellow. Again father time has changed the tinting a bit.

But no dents or creases on these old cars. I'll start stripping
one car and try to use the other 2 as reference points.
By the way I also found an Ives tender that looks just like your
lionel tender. And it is in good condition.
Rich


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## rich64 (Dec 13, 2010)

TJ' I stand corrected, Your photo of the caboose did pop up.
And it is outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow that thing came out great.
Nice work.
Rich


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rich64 said:


> TJ' I stand corrected, Your photo of the caboose did pop up.
> And it is outstanding!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow that thing came out great.
> Nice work.
> Rich



OK Rich, I waited long enough. You get this.

:ttiwwop:

Put some before pictures in, so you can put the after pictures in.

See TJ's before and after? the TINMAN does nice work?:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks for the nice comments, guys. Much appreciated.

Rich -- Much of the early 1930's Lionel tinplate line is a carry over from Ives. My 1661 tenders (that say Lionel Lines on the side) are really Ives tenders ... you'll see the very same thing with Ives R.R. Lines on the side, as you found.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Don't use alcohol to clean that car with the Sharpie detailing!


 True! 

And for the record, I would caution anyone from using alcohol on original tinplate litho paint. The Lionel stuff I've seen would degrade / rub off very quickly if rubbed with alcohol.

TJ


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## TimTheTrainMan (Jan 16, 2011)

Original Lionel cars were made from metal? 
Those were the good ol' days before plastic took over....

Beautiful job on the caboose BTW.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Tim,

Yes, Lionel prewar cars were mostly "tinplate" ... pressed and stamped sheet metal, metal trim and detail fittings, metal trucks and wheels, etc. The tinplate bodies sometimes had lithographed paint detail. Prewar locomotives were either tinplate assemblies or heavy metal castings.

Thanks!

TJ


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## rich64 (Dec 13, 2010)

I've only been apart of this forum a little over a month
and the amount of expertise,knowledge and craftmanship
is incredible. You gents should get ahold of the history
channel and get your own TV show. Heck we have
American Pickers, Pawn Stars and the New show with
the guy that restores pinball machines jukeboxes and gas pumps.

This hobby is about the fun and enjoyment of model
railroading but you are saving a piece of americana for
future generations to enjoy. And to think my interest
in the hobby got its start by finding a few cars in a dumpster
back in may. Speaking of cars the passenger cars I'm
going to attempt to restore are identical to the set
that felginator has for sale in the for sale forum under 
1661. I dont have that engine but was it part of the original set?

Thanks, Rich


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Rich,

I was just on my way out the door and happened to read your very nice comments above. Much appreciated by all, I'm sure ... it's most definitely a group effort here on the forum, and if there's any shining moments of insight and knowledge, it's usually because a lot of guys so willingly post their tips and knowledge.

Fel's 1661 loco was initially an Ives train. After Lionel bought out Ives (1929, if I recall), they initially offered the 1661 as it was, then soon retooled it with the same shell but a slightly different motor, and gave it a new 1681 tag.

The Ives/Lionel 1661 was issued as a set with the 1690 Pullman (2) and 1691 Observation (1) cars that you see in Fel's offering. I think (???) the set was # 1052 or 1052E.

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Sometimes you just like it the way it is.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

They call that "weathering" ... some guys do that_ intentionally_! 

I like Rich's comment above ... he has a good point ... I think a weekly T-Man "Epoxy Moxy" train fix-it TV show would be a huge hit ... I'd be glued to the tube. Uhh ... no pun intended. 

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Maybe I should get an agent.


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## TimTheTrainMan (Jan 16, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Tim,
> 
> Yes, Lionel prewar cars were mostly "tinplate" ... pressed and stamped sheet metal, metal trim and detail fittings, metal trucks and wheels, etc. The tinplate bodies sometimes had lithographed paint detail. Prewar locomotives were either tinplate assemblies or heavy metal castings.
> 
> ...


While I have you here, I'm gonna ask ya.....

I have a grey (Ugh) plastic Lionel caboose. 
However I would like a red one. 
Tips on how to make it red?
Spray paint or brush on?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hard to believe that you'd want to brush it on, I think most folks spray the base and then decorate them perhaps by hand.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

Krylon makes some great spray paints specifically for painting plastics. They stick really well, and hold up really well over time. You should be able to find them pretty much anywhere.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sure, but we're talking about tinplate cars, no plastic on these!


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

I should have included the quote from Tim above - regarding his plastic caboose he wants to paint. 

I wouldn't recommend the plastic paints for tin. There might be some adhesion issues there.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Tim,

Re: painting your_ plastic _caboose ...

The Krylon paint that's specially formulated for plastics ("Fusion", I think) could be a good choice. As with any paints, test on a small area, if at all possible.

Prep work is critical to any good paint job. Remove all trim work on the caboose, if possible, and paint individually. If pieces don't come apart, mask off with tape carefully ... use good quality (3M blue) tape. Wipe down the caboose prior to painting ... I'd suggest with some alcohol, though this may not be plastic-friendly ... again, test on a small area.

Spray paint in light, thin passes, waiting a few minutes between coats. I usually paint the inside/bottom of my cars one day, then the outside/top of my cars the next day.

Use ben coat hangers and the like to create grab holders for the caboose. Do not hold any surface with your fingers during painting.

If possible (and using your grab holders), orient and reorient the caboose such that your spraying is focused on horizontal sections.

I prefer to remove my masking tape relatively soon after spraying, while the paint is still a bit tacky. If you wait too long, the tape edge could rip/tear the paint edge.

Do not try to paint outside in cold weather. 50-degrees is about the absolute coldest I go, and even that is pushing it with some hazing in the finish. 65 to 75 deg is ideal.

Hope that helps,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Alcohol shouldn't affect the plastic, I've used it on a ton of different plastic cars, it's my standard cleaner. Note that alcohol WILL affect some paints, so if you have a painted car or engine, be cautious.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Alcohol shouldn't affect the plastic, I've used it on a ton of different plastic cars, it's my standard cleaner. Note that alcohol WILL affect some paints, so if you have a painted car or engine, be cautious.



Depends on what alcohol you are using.
If it is denatured with something like Ethyl Acetate or Methyl Iso Butyl Ketone it could very well eat your train.:laugh:

I take it your talking about Isopropanol 99% John? (rubbing alcohol?)
Watch out for 71 % Isopropanol.

You can't go wrong with 200 proof grain alcohol.
I take an extra sample when that comes in.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, I'm using 99% Isopropyl alcohol. I don't use the lower percentages, they frequently include undesirable components like oils.

I'd use the 190 proof strait grain alcohol from the liquor store, but it's a lot more expensive, so I'd be tempted to drink it as well.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, I'm using 99% Isopropyl alcohol. I don't use the lower percentages, they frequently include undesirable components like oils.
> 
> I'd use the 190 proof strait grain alcohol from the liquor store, but it's a lot more expensive, so I'd be tempted to drink it as well.



I get mine for free.
Though I am not in the yard much anymore I have a couple gallons in my garage. Ones 200 and ones 190....can't really tell the difference.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I used to get the 190 proof medical alcohol in 5 gallon cans when I was in the Navy. I ran Special Services, and I could trade favors for almost anything on the ship. Since it was an aircraft carrier, there was lots of useful stuff available.


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## TimTheTrainMan (Jan 16, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Tim,
> 
> Re: painting your_ plastic _caboose ...
> 
> ...


Yes that is helpful. 
thanks. 

I'll probably use citri solv or a mix of vinegar/water to clean the body.
(Not mine. The cabooses. And not my caboose either. Um... What I really mean is... Oh, never mind.) 

And I'd have to wait until spring to paint.
I can stand a couple more months of the grey caboose.


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## machinejack (May 5, 2010)

Not for sure what to do with my prewar heavy metal Marx and Lionel stuff . I like the look of used but not abused. I will clean the loose rust and grime off. Polish the wheels and axles so the lights work, and add new wire and missing parts. I rewind motors and solenoids when needed and hopefully with period parts I can make thing looks original as best I can. 
I have some pieces that are just as bad or worse than your caboose and have tried my hand at repainting and boy is it terrible looking. Good looking redue by the way. One thing about it there not making that kind of quality anymore. 
SAVE THE TRAINS
Jack Adams


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Tim -- glad to help. I'm going stir crazy with the long wait for spring and warm painting weather. Too many projects on a holding pattern.

Jack -- I'd love to see some pics of your trains at some point. Maybe start up a "my stuff" thread?

Cheers,

TJ


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## machinejack (May 5, 2010)

Dang just wrote a long post and lost it.
Anyway T-man suggested I get more into the fray. I lost my camera cables. There here somewhere or I would take some pictures, and do some posting and showing off.
Jack


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Still waiting for rich 64 pictures.hwell:


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