# First time building a layout.



## jclassfan (Aug 18, 2016)

Hey guys, brand new to the forum and I need some guidance on putting together my first layout. 









This is the design I'm going to be working with plus a few minor adjustments. I'm going to get a 4x8 or 5x8 table in case it needs to bigger. 

My main question is concerning the locomotive I'm going to be running on it; I have an ho gauge J611 that will be the main one running on this along with a few other diesels that I have and a local guy told me I'd have to have 24 degree curves and the 4x8 table he showed me had 18 degree curves so he was trying to sell me the bigger table. Does anybody have experience with this particular locomotive? I want to have plenty of open track for it but can't get much bigger than 5x8, just getting some input to see if I can use the sharper curves. Thanks.

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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hi, Jclass.

I'm assuming you mean a Norfolk and Western J-class locomotive #611 which is being operated by the Virginia Museum of Transportation? A 4-8-4 steam locomotive?

Unfortunately, the answer to your question depends a lot on who manufactured the model. The manufacturer usually provides a "Minimum radius" specification, but even these are suspect, because they often mean "the locomotive, without any cars, can be coaxed around a curve of this radius". Sometimes the locomotive swings so much while cornering that it will pull cars off the track; and it's a sure bet that it won't look very realistic on curves of the minimum radius.

Long wheelbase locos usually prefer wide curves, although there are some tricks (like flangeless drivers or sideways play in the wheels) that allow them to work on smaller curves. I have two 2-8-2 Mikados (one by IHC / Mehano, the other Bachmann Spectrum) that work on 18" curves. There's really no substitute for actually testing it, especially if you already have the loco.

That layout plan you have looks serviceable, and is simple enough to make a good beginner layout. It looks like an Atlas track plan.


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

Every time someone says they're doing a 4x8 or 5x8 layout, someone has to come along and tell them "you will get bored with it before you've even done the scenery". Well I am that someone.

Is there *any way* you can do an 18" deep shelf layout around the edge of the room? An L shaped layout that runs 9 feet on one wall and 6 feet on the other wall would allow you to do a Point-to-Point layout with a working yard on the long side and a few industries on the short side. Anything that lets you "work" the train rather than just watching trains go around in a circle will be a lot more fun and engaging and you're more likely to stick with it.


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## jclassfan (Aug 18, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Hi, Jclass.
> 
> I'm assuming you mean a Norfolk and Western J-class locomotive #611 which is being operated by the Virginia Museum of Transportation? A 4-8-4 steam locomotive?
> 
> ...


Yes, it is a Bachman ho gauge n&w class J #611. I haven't seen any minimum radius on the box, am I overlooking something?

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## jclassfan (Aug 18, 2016)

feldon30 said:


> Every time someone says they're doing a 4x8 or 5x8 layout, someone has to come along and tell them "you will get bored with it before you've even done the scenery". Well I am that someone.
> 
> Is there *any way* you can do an 18" deep shelf layout around the edge of the room? An L shaped layout that runs 9 feet on one wall and 6 feet on the other wall would allow you to do a Point-to-Point layout with a working yard on the long side and a few industries on the short side. Anything that lets you "work" the train rather than just watching trains go around in a circle will be a lot more fun and engaging and you're more likely to stick with it.


I would LOVE to be able to do that but I have a small apartment that's already pretty crowded. I want to start small and see what I can do with it and then when I have more space maybe add my original 5x8 to a much bigger layout. 

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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I understand your problem. I had a 4 X 8 N scale
layout in an apartment years ago. It does narrow
your living space. However, for HO, 
the 4 X 8 would barely be wide enough.
If possible, the 5 X 8 would give you the
width you'd need for 22" curves.

Build your layout with flex track instead of
sections and you can better control of your
curves. It bends to match your track design.

Keep in mind that all those wheel flanges will
be pressing against the rail heads very hard
on a tight radius curve. The likelyhood of 
derails is great and the friction would probably
slow the train down.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

jclassfan said:


> Yes, it is a Bachman ho gauge n&w class J #611. I haven't seen any minimum radius on the box, am I overlooking something?
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


It's often not on the box, but the website. Going to one of my favorite sites Model Train Stuff (www.modeltrainstuff.com), I see 3 similar Bachmann 4-8-4 steamers, all of which recommend a 22" minimum radius.

As Don points out, using a 5' wide table would allow you to get there.

While I don't disagree with feldon's point about getting bored with a "roundy-roundy" layout, I also believe that people have to discover this for themselves. Build the one you selected, and make sure you do a little of everything (scenery, structures, etc). Consider it a rough draft. Then junk it and begin your "DREAM" layout, because you will have a real idea what you really want from your layout.


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> While I don't disagree with feldon's point about getting bored with a "roundy-roundy" layout, I also believe that people have to discover this for themselves.


Expensive lesson if you throw any serious money into modular track pieces (rather than flex track) or scenery. 

But serious,y I don't want the original poster to in any way feel that I am "down" on them. If they enjoy a 5x9 layout or learn from it, then that's fantastic. Ultimately, they have to build what they have room for. I just know that many people (including myself at first) tend to look at a room and think "what's the biggest table I can fit in here?" rather than looking around the walls and thinking "wait, I could put narrow shelves along the walls and get MUCH more space". It also helps to visit other people's layouts. You may even have a "club" layout in your area.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I think a 5x8 layout is a great way to learn about building a layout and doing scenery. 4x8 is really constraining the turning radius. I've been using, refining and rebuilding my open framework 5x9 for 10 years and I'm still learning and trying new techniques. I still have not got to the scenery. I had some scenery down about a year ago but I tore up all the atlas flex track and turnouts and completely revised one end and replaced it all with CV ties and CV hand made turnouts (with Proto 87 points). I'm much happier with the results and I've learned a lot of new skills and what mistakes to avoid.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Hello and welcome to the forum. This is a very large and long loco so might look a bit silly on the sort of curves you'll be putting on a 5x 8 layout, plus you simply won't have the room for it to pull the sort of load it's supposed too. These types of layouts don't really do justice to such an engine. Sorry but it needs to be said, I don't want to put you off but it's something you need to consider. I'd second Feldon 30's suggestion of building a long shelf layout which goes some way to addressing these problems.

At the end of the end of day it's your layout so do what makes you happy.


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## jclassfan (Aug 18, 2016)

Cycleops said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum. This is a very large and long loco so might look a bit silly on the sort of curves you'll be putting on a 5x 8 layout, plus you simply won't have the room for it to pull the sort of load it's supposed too. These types of layouts don't really do justice to such an engine. Sorry but it needs to be said, I don't want to put you off but it's something you need to consider. I'd second Feldon 30's suggestion of building a long shelf layout which goes some way to addressing these problems.
> 
> At the end of the end of day it's your layout so do what makes you happy.


Sir, while this is the Internet and you are free to say what you want, if you don't have anything helpful to post then don't post it. If you read earlier posts I clearly state that I'd love to do a bigger layout but I live in a small apartment and until I have a house with a room, or until I know for sure that a big layout is something I really want to do, a small is all I have to work with, and I want my 611 model to have something more than an oval of track in my floor to run on. 

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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

looks like everyone else already told you but, yeah, FIVE by 8.

you can just fit soooo much more in there.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

jclassfan said:


> Sir, while this is the Internet and you are free to say what you want, if you don't have anything helpful to post then don't post it. If you read earlier posts I clearly state that I'd love to do a bigger layout but I live in a small apartment and until I have a house with a room, or until I know for sure that a big layout is something I really want to do, a small is all I have to work with, and I want my 611 model to have something more than an oval of track in my floor to run on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


Dont listen to those guys. who cares how it "looks in a turn".

That's just stupid.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

If he only has room for 4' * 8' or 5' * 9' then so be it.

Has to work with what he has available. 

I will add if doing either of the above, see if there is somewhere you could add a shelf for a small switching yard or industrial type lead, you will be happy if you can.

I'm stuck where I live, no basement and only place for a "real" layout would be the apartment over the garage and I'm not giving up the income from rent or tax write offs associated with having an apartment on my property

So plan "B" is going to be an around the walls type layout in the older boys room. It will need 2 lift out sections, so I will have to wait until some things get settled furniture wise before design phase.

It's not always what you want but you have to deal the cards you are dealt.

Don't necessarily sell yourself short and investigate all your options. You might find a few things to add or possibilities you didn't think of prior.

I hadn't really considered going around the walls until I realized we could do 30" curves and only come out 16-18 inches from the corner of the room.


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

:hah:


santafealltheway said:


> Dont listen to those guys. who cares how it "looks in a turn".
> 
> That's just stupid.


Good one! 

Jclass - 

Just go with the flow for your apartment. I can understand and feel ya for the limited space. Just wonder if you have considered dogbone, which might more suitable for you? 

Maybe, you can start off with the 4'x4' with 22" tracks and see how it works well with your J611? If it works well, great! Then try smaller radii such as 18" tracks and see how it goes. Then you can "paint" the idea of your vision of how it should look like, then expand the table to larger size, possible to what you want from that layout book, in the future.

Myself, I do have couple larger locomotives - DD40DX and DD35A (I think). They hardly fit any track smaller than 18" tracks. It is pretty tight turn for these two. I just want to use them, regardless that they are not on any track today, except one - Union Pacific #6936, which is the only DDA40X still in service with Union Pacific Railroad, though it is mostly used to haul excursions. *quoted from other site - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_6936*

Do not worry about these guys that recommend much larger radii such as 30"+ curves. They might have much larger space available than I do. 

Also, if you do enjoy "go around and around" loop, that is okay. Nothing wrong with that. I like combination of both loops and switches. At least, it would give me something to keep myself busy, worry about moving locomotive on the loop and keep it out of the switchers' way.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

jclassfan said:


> Sir, while this is the Internet and you are free to say what you want, if you don't have anything helpful to post then don't post it. If you read earlier posts I clearly state that I'd love to do a bigger layout but I live in a small apartment and until I have a house with a room, or until I know for sure that a big layout is something I really want to do, a small is all I have to work with, and I want my 611 model to have something more than an oval of track in my floor to run on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


By posting on a forum your are inviting comment, we all have our different takes on things and this was mine and I stand by my remarks. If I've offended you in some way or you thought I was being deliberately unhelpful I apologise sincerely, that was never my intention, it was the very opposite. I just made some points which I thought you may like to consider. I did finally say you must go ahead with whatever makes you happy. Others have given very good advise and from what they say I hope you can devise a plan that suits your situation. Good luck.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

*4x8 plan*

If _this_ can be done on a 4x8, just imagine what can be done on a _five_ by eight.

[EDIT]: At the very least, it increases the outer loop from a 22"r to a 28"r.

http://thortrains.net/4holay4.html


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

santafealltheway said:


> Dont listen to those guys. who cares how it "looks in a turn".
> 
> That's just stupid.


The only thing that's stupid is to call someone else's comment stupid.

It DOES matter to some people. Just because it doesn't matter to YOU doesn't mean it might not be of critical importance to someone else. Your layout, your rules.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

feldon30 said:


> Expensive lesson if you throw any serious money into modular track pieces (rather than flex track) or scenery.


Just because you discard the layout doesn't mean you throw away everything you used on it. When I got back into the hobby in 2003, I was still using some recycled brass track from my teenage years.

It's not too hard to incorporate roadbed track with flextrack. Some companies even sell an adapter piece.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Critical parameters in building a layout include benchwork criteria, i.e., support, framework, underlayment, etc...
And one critical aspect that I rarely see discussed is _height_.

Right or wrong, I've always set my layout surface height at 42 inches.
Just seems to feel right to me.

I have however, seen heights at 50, and 55 inches.


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## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

jclassfan said:


> Yes, it is a Bachman ho gauge n&w class J #611. I haven't seen any minimum radius on the box, am I overlooking something?
> 
> Sent from my SM-J320P using Tapatalk


I have a Bachmann J611 and found that it would run on 22” radius curves with some wheel-drag. I went with 26” radius and found that it would run as freely on the curves as the straight. Please note that each Bachmann J611 may run slightly different (and may be slightly different).
Bob


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

LateStarter said:


> Critical parameters in building a layout include benchwork criteria, i.e., support, framework, underlayment, etc...
> And one critical aspect that I rarely see discussed is _height_.
> 
> Right or wrong, I've always set my layout surface height at 42 inches.
> ...


So, benchwork is important, but in my mind, it's essential to settle on a track plan FIRST, then figure out what the requirements for your bench work are. That way your design is not constrained by your benchwork.

Height is a very individual thing, but since most of us operate our layouts while standing, higher is often better. Mine is 46" (I am 6' 1" tall).


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