# Granger Road Layout



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

When building a layout from scratch, do you lay down the track - even if elevated - then "build" around it? Do you do the back half and move toward you (front)? 

I have not made any progress. I am thinking - do the water (river) then do the layout, then elevations like hills, mountains. 

I've got some good books, but fear of flying has me stalled. I am just going to dig in.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

My 1st try at something to do with the build was mixing up some plaster from Woodland Scenics and putting in my rock molds. 

It was pretty much an epic fail. I had too much water to plaster and it took several days to cure. Lots of mess. I got a few rocks.


----------



## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> My 1st try at something to do with the build was mixing up some plaster from Woodland Scenics and putting in my rock molds.
> 
> It was pretty much an epic fail. I had too much water to plaster and it took several days to cure. Lots of mess. I got a few rocks.


Time to buy lots of spray bottles cheap from the dollar store. For rocks add a drop or 2 of Dawn dishsoap and pre-spray the molds, this helps popping them out. Dawn is going to serve as a release agent. When mixing the Hydrocal or Plaster of Paris, you want it just thick enough to pour with the help of your trowel. If it pours by itself add more mix and remix. If it is to stiff add a tad more water. When your mixing and adding water to the powder, you'll hear and see it bubble. Give it time to stop bubbling before mixing so you don't end up with honeycombs/ little air bubbles in your rocks. Think of pudding or hot pie filling, you don't want to pour bricks or soup. After making a few casts, it gets easier and you'll stop measuring everything and start eyeballing it. Water should be room temp at 70* Once you start making rocks keep making them daily or twice a day. If you think you need 10 you'll end up using 20 lol. I've been making batches before work and after dinner but I'm using the cheaper plaster of Paris from HomeDepot, with Hydrocal you might get 3 batches a day as it sets faster.


----------



## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> When building a layout from scratch, do you lay down the track - even if elevated - then "build" around it? Do you do the back half and move toward you (front)?
> 
> I have not made any progress. I am thinking - do the water (river) then do the layout, then elevations like hills, mountains.
> 
> I've got some good books, but fear of flying has me stalled. I am just going to dig in.


I like covering all my foam with plaster cloth. I layout my track and trace it onto the foam. I'll draw in my rivers, ponds and mountains and try to guess how much elevation changes I'm going to need. I pull the track, install the plaster cloth on it's path, carve out valleys, river, ponds and cloth, then add mountain bases and cloth over those. Then I'll install track and test everything. I always end up making changes sadly. You basically want rough scenery down and done before laying track as this is the messiest part. Making everything look nicey nicey takes time and is not as messy but atleast there is terrain and trains are running.
I'm sure others do things different, there is no wrong way, it just finding best way to control the mess to prevent cleanups and get trains going.
Good luck


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I do the track first and get it right, including all bridges and elevated section. Then add the terrain, then the scenergy, finally the roads and buildings.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Xnats said:


> Time to buy lots of spray bottles cheap from the dollar store. For rocks add a drop or 2 of Dawn dishsoap and pre-spray the molds, this helps popping them out. Dawn is going to serve as a release agent. When mixing the Hydrocal or Plaster of Paris, you want it just thick enough to pour with the help of your trowel. If it pours by itself add more mix and remix. If it is to stiff add a tad more water. When your mixing and adding water to the powder, you'll hear and see it bubble. Give it time to stop bubbling before mixing so you don't end up with honeycombs/ little air bubbles in your rocks. Think of pudding or hot pie filling, you don't want to pour bricks or soup. After making a few casts, it gets easier and you'll stop measuring everything and start eyeballing it. Water should be room temp at 70* Once you start making rocks keep making them daily or twice a day. If you think you need 10 you'll end up using 20 lol. I've been making batches before work and after dinner but I'm using the cheaper plaster of Paris from HomeDepot, with Hydrocal you might get 3 batches a day as it sets faster.


Thanks Stan. I bought 2 spray bottles from craft store. One for some liquid adhesive and now I know what to do with the 2nd one. 

I was not sure what to spray in the molds to ease removal of rocks. I bought the tubs of compound mud to replace the Hydrocal, which I do not care for. I'll try both.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Lee Willis said:


> I do the track first and get it right, including all bridges and elevated section. Then add the terrain, then the scenergy, finally the roads and buildings.



Thanks Lee. I will deviate slightly from that. I am going to do my water (river and streams) 1st because they are the low point, then I will put down the track, then build around it. 


I believe I saw in one of my magazines or references books to tape over the track to prevent damage or spills on the track. I will do that with painters tape.


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I agree with Lee on the order of things. The track is the single most important element of the layout. Get it right and run trains on it for a reasonable period. What works on paper doesn't always work as well in actual practice. It is amazing how when you attempt to operate as a real railroad you find that you need another switch somewhere for a passing siding or something. How do you get the engine around the train so you can switch an industry?

Also before the scenery starts is the time to make sure your DCS signal is strong everywhere. Make sure you tallest and longest engines and cars all clear bridges, tunnels, and etc.

Scenery is easier to redo or modify than track is after the scenery is done.

Lastly if you are worried that you won't be able to reach certain areas later, you need shorter bench work or access hatches or a topside creeper.

Art


----------



## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Track first, most definitely.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks for all the advice. I wonder where I can get a topside creeper? I have seen them in layout photos but not sure where to get. No access to the very back but all the way back in deepest part will be a hill straight up. 

I am going to do the river and creek 1st. Question on the "water" - Envirotex or Mod Podge. I have some Mod Podge. 

But one one of my books mentions Envirotex and I saw that at Michaels yesterday. Envirotex looks like a good product but requires mixing and seems to imply it better be precise. 

I ask because both are available in larger quantities on Amazon but both are about a $75 commitment. I am going to do the bed of the river in both sand and some painted area, and some dirt. 

I want the product chosen to be poured over the river bed and self level. My thought on the Mod Podge was place the container in warm water before pouring to get better flow. I also bough some clear caulk to do smaller creeks and such.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm certainly laying all the track first and then adding the other stuff as I go. First off, I can actually run some trains earlier, it could easily take months or even years to get all the scenery done, I'd have serious withdrawal by then!


----------



## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Pouring water should be dead last. Remember when you pour it should only be 1/8 to 1/4 inch maxium thickness, so a little goes a long way.
Envirotex or Mod Podge? Mod Podge works better for smaller task that are not up close. I personally don't like it and use Woodland Scenic stuff. I never used Envirotex but it seems perfect for large areas that are up close. 
Are both of those bridges going to be in water? If they are I would try the Envirotex personally. Try to find as many Youtube videos as you can and do a test patch before pouring a large section. Small ponds are easy to fix, cut them out and install new foam. Redoing a bay harbor scene or large river would suck lol.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Stan. The issue is the river will be cut from back to front in about the middle and if I lay track I am not sure how easy it will be work around those piers. 

In a way the track will be laid back there as the Fastrack will be on the bridges. I understand about depth. This is not a prototype lay out, almost impossible for my skill level but the river modeled is the Platte River and similar Nebraska prairie rivers which run shallow. 

Here in Iowa most rivers are chocolate brown and not as interesting. The Platte runs shallow with a lot of sand bars and driftwood. 


I was able to figure out how to attach my Fasttrack to the MTH elevated trestles. I have plenty of elevated trestles now with Lionel and MTH.


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Bryan, here is a picture of my version of the Mississippi River running between Iowa and Illinois. I used Envirotex Light and it was very easy to work with. I too wanted that brown colored water that we see in the Midwest and with a small current. Watch videos on You Tube and it will help allay your fears. That is what I did and it was very easy

Art


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Oh and it should be the last thing that you do in my opinion.

Art


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Chugman said:


> Oh and it should be the last thing that you do in my opinion.
> 
> Art


Thanks as well Art. OK, the consensus wins since this advice is what I came on for. I am going to 'cut' my banks, put down my piers where I want them, then proceed with track set up including dropping wires (drilling) through the layout foam and board. 

Will take photos as I move along. Have a general idea and I remember Lee mentioning once not to go crazy on grades, so I will watch it. 

Have determined already O54 is max full curve but likely there won't be but one full curve..


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Envirotex wins but I will pour what Modge Podge I have in the creeks, because I bought some.


----------



## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

That does look nice Art.

Bryan looking forward to updates with pics :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Topside creeper link below. I haven't used this on my layout yet, but it works great for working on my Ford F350 4wd pickup.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QGXSODA/ref=sxts_kp_bs_tr_lp_1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=8778bc68-27e7-403f-8460-de48b6e788fb&pd_rd_wg=8ziSq&pf_rd_r=JWANR01C40Z5NKDGKPDP&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_i=B00QGXSODA&pd_rd_w=J7X7k&pf_rd_i=topside+creeper&pd_rd_r=925cd1d2-6e14-4edc-bce2-a3a38789b1a0&ie=UTF8&qid=1543115336&sr=1


----------



## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Bryan, Yes track first on the layout. BUT, I would say location first. Paint or put up scenic panels on your back walls, possibly put a ceiling in and install good overhead lighting. Once you start the layout, and make it great, you may be disappointed by the background. Then it is extremely difficult to enhance. It is so much fun to build a layout. You are getting great advice here.


----------



## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Brian, Yes, on the track first when you build the layout. But, I would advise the location first. Paint the wall or put up a scenic panel, look at your ceiling and possibly enhance and add good overhead lighting. Check for multiple electric options. Once you build your layout, you may be disappointed by the background and lighting. Then, it is very difficult to enhance. Good luck. You are getting great advice here.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Wood said:


> Bryan, Yes track first on the layout. BUT, I would say location first. Paint or put up scenic panels on your back walls, possibly put a ceiling in and install good overhead lighting. Once you start the layout, and make it great, you may be disappointed by the background. Then it is extremely difficult to enhance. It is so much fun to build a layout. You are getting great advice here.



Wood that part was easy. I have your normal unfinished basement. We have been here 4 1/2 years. I started by adding lighting and electrical. I had the electrician add the 8 box below projected layout height. 


The lighting was added to add light to darker spaces. I added 3 windows where there were 2. This helps especially in the late afternoon. My west facing wall was bad so I waterproofed it and added a new wall, a false wall about 4 inches out to allow ventilation. All that has worked well. 


The backdrop can be added here in about 4 weeks. I can still get up on my layout and add background. The issue is - the guys were unanimous about doing the track. See the photos that follow. The gaps behind the bridges will be elevated bluff sections. Because of that, no addition of scenic backdrops can be added until I flesh that out.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

More freshman mistakes, but some success. In June I went crazy on ebay and purchased a bunch of bridges, mostly MTH, 2 Lionel, and one expensive Atlas ($135). 

I purchased 3 MTH doubles and it wasn't until 2 weeks ago that I realized I had purchased 3, which is too many for my 16 x 7 1/2 layout as each span is 30 inches. 

I decided to place all 3 on the back but slanted. This might be visible. They run at about a 15-20 degree angle off the fireplace section. (I have no idea why they did that fireplace section into the basement)


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I wanted to drop a line down in the middle of the bridge since this is on the back of my layout. In test runs using a 30W RTR Lionel my trains died on the back side. 

I won't be using a 30W RTR transformer but I still want 5 feed lines per rail back to the transformer(s). 

Unfortunately it was too tight without cutting out sections of the Fastrack to create a channel and that was doubtful so I gave up on running a power line down. 

Learned a lot. The wire I purchased was 14 gauge. The spades connecting to the Fastrack are smaller than what I could get at my Ace Hardware. I crimped them and they fit and would have worked. But when I attempted to slide the Fastrack onto the MTH bridge it got caught. 

In a 30 inch Fastrack piece there are 2 male ends for connectors. Both are kind of in the middle, not allowing a person to run wire and electrify the bridge without a lot of ingenuity and work.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

That is Code for brick fireplaces it forms the foundation and Footing for the fireplace. A big brick fireplace and chimney can weigh a few tons, far too much for basement rafters to support

Nice bridges...….


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I modified that taped over section by cutting a piece out of the Fastrack on the side like Lionel does on their wired pieces, but it made no real difference. 

My last step on the day's work was tracing out the piers and cutting those sections out of the base foam board. 

I wanted the bases of the piers, of which there are 9 total, to be as far down as possible. They add no scenic attraction, and therefore do not need to be on top of the foam board. 

So I did not get much done except 3 bridges, pushed together, where they will be. I know about Fasttrack connectors. 

I purchased a new cordless drill, which I put to use. I have never owned a cordless drill. 

14 gauge is too large for the wiring but will work so I am staying with it. I have a wiring and electrical book which is helpful. 

You can see I have a lot of issues forthcoming. I now know why I see so many layouts on flat ground, no elevation.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

BWA said:


> That is Code for brick fireplaces it forms the foundation and Footing for the fireplace. A big brick fireplace and chimney can weigh a few tons, far too much for basement rafters to support
> 
> Nice bridges...….



Thanks for that explanation on the fireplace. Yes, I love bridges, and feel the MTH's are good compromises. They have great looking piers, and are realistic but don't cost what the new Lionel bridge does, which is $300 for one. 


I have a single same look MTH. I have a single black Lionel which came with phony looking piers which I won't use.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Progress update on The Granger Road with photos. Some challenges getting the Fastrack to line up. Everything up to the unfinished end more or less - is screwed down tight. 

I have way too much Fastrack including some special pieces like crossovers that I won't be able to use. 

I still need a crossing gate or two. All for now, I need to order some graduated trestles, I am out. I am on a business trip 1st part of week. 

I have been at it about 2-3 hours an evening.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

The average curve on the outer loop is O58 on the short end. It should be O60- on the somewhat wider end (unfinished). 

The inner loop of the outer track breakoff is a challenge. It runs straight through the bridge and has a 10" and a 30" straight but then I need to figure out how to curve it to intersect with the main line that runs along the edge. 

Then I have to figure out how to get the INNER line back on track, connected and gradually elevated to meet the bridge in back, with an average curve of O36 minimum and hopefully O42 +. 

The inner loop on the tight end is average O40 or so. I was able to work some O60 - O72 and even an O84 coming off the bridge before tightening it up to get the turn with 2 - O36 fulls. I then got an O60 in there. 

I had to try a couple of different approaches for the inner loop where it tucks under the elevated outer. I am happy with the result on "paper". 

I always remember what Lee says about using a gradual grade but this is the best I can do. I believe it will work as I won't be running super long consists due to short layout. 

I don't think the grades are too bad. On my wider unfinished end, the grades will have more area to climb and I will make it as gradual as possible.


----------



## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

Remarkable work.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

"When building a layout from scratch, do you lay down the track - even if elevated - then "build" around it?"

Yes, initially the layout looks like a bare benchtop with wooden spacers and boards to support the track. I put all of it in, test it and get is solid, the wiring finished, etc., before doing anything else. I do the entire layout - all the track, all the switches, everything. 


"Do you do the back half and move toward you (front)?" 

No, I do each track loop a piece at a time working around it until done. I do the lowest (vertically) one first, then the next, etc. 

"I have not made any progress. I am thinking - do the water (river) then do the layout, then elevations like hills, mountains." 

Well, you could, but I wouldn't - get the track in first. Test your trains on it - for a week or more, making sure they run wel, with no interference, not bad sections, etc.l. Only then, start adding terrain, rivers, etc. If you do the terrain and landscaping first you will be tearing it up, making a mess, constantly making adjustments, getting wiring hidden, etc. 

"I've got some good books, but fear of flying has me stalled. I am just going to dig in."

That is all you can do, really. but that said, focus on getting the track in and located first.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

You have made some excellent progress since the last photos you poster in November.


----------



## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Nice work!!!:smilie_daumenpos:

I have made and taken down my layout three times now. First one was to small so expanded. Second one was taken down because of construction on the upstairs and had to put a new beam in above layout. Now is the third layout, but on each of the builds I laid track and ran trains, all sizes to see if there is enough clearance at all my tight points. I ran them daily to make sure nothing would run into problems. Then I started adding houses, building, scenery etc. I still have lots to do. But run the trains before getting to far into the build.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

laz57 said:


> Nice work!!!:smilie_daumenpos:
> 
> I have made and taken down my layout three times now. First one was to small so expanded. Second one was taken down because of construction on the upstairs and had to put a new beam in above layout. Now is the third layout, but on each of the builds I laid track and ran trains, all sizes to see if there is enough clearance at all my tight points. I ran them daily to make sure nothing would run into problems. Then I started adding houses, building, scenery etc. I still have lots to do. But run the trains before getting to far into the build.



Will do. I also need to figure out where to add a Lionel Fastrack crossing gate. Running out of room but I have some ideas.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Finally got the layout completed. Next step is electrification and some run time. It was difficult but somehow came together just today. It's obviously not prototypical, and so I wanted to add many cool realistic features. I like bridges and somehow got them all on the layout. 

I did not necessarily want three inner tracks but I bought a lot of Fastrack and wanted to use as much as possible. The approaches to the double bridge had to be redone at least 6 times until it fit together. 

The outer loop is the average O54. I had to throw one O36 on the small end, surrounded by O72, O48. I have spun the O54 21 " Lionel passenger cars around and it seems OK. Most of my locomotives are O36 or O31 but I have 2-3 Legacy in O54. All will be tested. 

Inner loop has a mid section and a inner loop. Inner loop is strictly O36 on the wide end, middle loop there averages about O42. 

Dropped electrical lines all over.


----------



## mackerel (Oct 9, 2018)

Its coming along nicely! Well done!!

:appl:


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2019)

Your design is interesting and original. That's going to be a very fun layout to run your trains. Nice work!

Emile


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Looks nice. You have a great layout shaping up.


----------



## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Great progress. :thumbsup:


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It looks great. I like the wide radius curves and the bridge.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2019)

Thanks so much for the update on the progress of your layout. Good job.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2019)

The layout looks great. I foresee lots of fun running trains.


----------

