# Xrunner's Layout



## xrunner

Table in progress -



Legs -


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## Giants

Great Start and Nicely Molded Bench XRunner,
I can See Legs for the Support Too.
Good Work on Getting in to it. Dave I


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## tjcruiser

Adjustable feet! :thumbsup:

If "flat" legs are for mid-span support, I'd suggest cross-bracing the top connection so they don't get kicked in.

Cheers,

TJ


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> If "flat" legs are for mid-span support, I'd suggest cross-bracing the top connection so they don't get kicked in.


Yea I have a board running across underneath the table for those legs, both to support the table and to stiffen the legs. It's all together now and the legs are very sturdy. I'll post a pic tomorrow.

Now at least I can play with the stuff I have until I get a track plan in mind, which will take a long time. I got Anyrail on my computer, and it seems very easy to use.

I've also been watching this guy's video blog on You Tube, which has a lot of tips for building scenery -

http://www.youtube.com/user/thebige61


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## NufCed

Nice videos! thanks for the link!


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## xrunner




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## tjcruiser

Looking nice.

What's the white deck surface? Foam? Laminated particle board?

Holes for cable runs?

TJ


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> Looking nice.
> What's the white deck surface? Foam? Laminated particle board?


The tabletop consists of three old closet doors cut and patched to fit together, that's the white you see. I have 1" pink foam sheathing for the top, which I haven't put on yet.



> Holes for cable runs?


Yes that's what you see underneath.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks!


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## xrunner

Here's the finished table with a test track -










I'm looking at yard designs first. I found a couple of sites that explain a good yard design but I'm confused on a couple of things. Check the picture below - except for the mainline, where do the 3 tracks go which have arrows pointing to the right? 










http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

Can you all point me to an actual model train yard design pic that is properly done?

Thanks.


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## sstlaure

Yard lead is a long dead-ended track that allows the switcher to pull a cut of cars out and classify them without fouling the mainline. Engine service and aux tracks would go out to sidings for fueling/sanding service and an engine house (or even just a dead ended spur to hide the switcher in while the road engine is entering/departing the yard.


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## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> Yard lead is a long dead-ended track that allows the switcher to pull a cut of cars out and classify them without fouling the mainline. yard.


OK, but I'm still a little confused. If a switcher pulls out one or more cars onto the yard lead and stores them there, how does it get back to get more cars? If it pulls them out to the right on that yard lead on that diagram, isn't it dead-ended? I see a run-around but couldn't that get blocked by the cars? Maybe I'm not understanding how the switcher pulls out the cars?


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## sstlaure

It doesn't store them there. It is merely a track that allows the switcher to pull many cars in a single pull so that it can classify them in the yard body tracks. Without a yard lead, the switcher must pull cars out onto the mainline to classify them preventing any other traffic from entering/departing the yard. 

Example: A road engine pulls into the yard with 8 cars. 4 going to Ind #1, 4 going to Ind #2. The road engine disconnects with the cars and the switcher hooks up at the tail of the train. It pulls all 8 cars back onto the yard lead (engine going into the lead first.) then pushes all 8 cars into yard track #1, disconnects the 4 cars for Ind #1, and backs the other 4 cars back into the yard lead. It then pushes the remaining 4 cars into yard track #2 for delivery to industry #2. 

Think of each yard body track as being a destination for the cars. As the cars come in from the world, they have to be classified according to their next destination. You want all of the cars going the same way down the tracks (northbound/southbound) classified into a single yard track. This allows a switch to build trains in the yard and only pull them to the A/D track when the road engine is ready to go. 

This leaves both the mainline and the A/D tracks clear for arriving/departing trains while the switcher is doing his work.


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## xrunner

OK sstlaure, That helps. Sounds like the switcher does a lot of pushing-pulling of cars in the yard. I can see how things go now a little better.

Do you agree that the basic yard design I posted is a decent one to build around? Is there anything about it that you disagree with?


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## sstlaure

That's a terrific example of a functioning yard and a great example to start from. 

Feel free to add/delete additional A/D tracks (the more you have, the more trains your yard can handle coming/going at a time - think of them like gates at the airport.)

Add/delete yard body tracks - they can be double ended if you have the room, but single ended is fine as well. If made double-ended they can also double as an additional A/D track. The more of these, the more specific you can be with classifying cars going to industries. If you don't have tons of spurs, you won't need that many of these (although they are handy for displaying cars as well)

Make sure any run-around tracks are long enough for the engine to get ahead/behind your longest "cut" of cars. i.e. the Max # cars being handled in the yard. You want to make sure the engine can get from the head to the tail of the string of cars allowing the engine to service tracks going opposite directions without getting trapped.

I just started my second layout and I've got a similar yard planned. Click the 13x13 link in my sig line and go to the end to see what I'm doing. I don't have a yard lead as I don't have continuous running (end to end style layout) so I don't anticipate enough traffic to need to avoid fouling the mainline. I also combined the caboose track into the head end of the yard body tracks. 

When planning a yard, think about how trainyards work rather than how much track can I get in. The tracks aren't for storage, they just provide a means of re-organizing cars into usable trains. Think about where you would want to do run-around moves (end of a dead-ended arrival/departure track, @ entrance/approach to industry spur, etc.) to plan cross-over locations.


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## xrunner

Thanks for the advice. Yea I have a lot of learning to do, but that's part of the fun. What I'm going to have trouble with is finalizing a design, because after that it can't be easily changed. I've looked at a lot of layouts and it seems that a lot of them really don't do a well-functioning yard, so I'm glad I realized I needed to understand it better.

DCC, sound, etc. - still lots of questions to ask.


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## gc53dfgc

I would be more then willing to help with any questions you may have about DCC and DCC/Sound and also install DCC and DCC/Sound into engines if you want to go that route as well.


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## xrunner

gc53dfgc said:


> I would be more then willing to help with any questions you may have about DCC and DCC/Sound and also install DCC and DCC/Sound into engines if you want to go that route as well.


Thanks - here's one I've been thinking about.

Regarding DCC and the control of turnouts (which I want to do) - how does one keep track of which turnout is switched in what direction with DCC?

In the "old daze" it would be easy to see what switch was in what direction because you could just look at the panel of switches in front of you. But isn't all that replaced with a hand held controller now? What does the controller present you on it's display that enables a person to keep track of 10 - 20 turnouts?

Thanks.


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## xrunner

Did some kitbashing on some of the the free ScaleScenes.com kits.

This one was only a facade building as offered, 










I made it into a complete building using textures from http://www.cgtextures.com/










The one on the left is the original building, the one on the right was created using the parts from the kit and more textures -


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## Massey

xrunner said:


> Thanks - here's one I've been thinking about.
> 
> Regarding DCC and the control of turnouts (which I want to do) - how does one keep track of which turnout is switched in what direction with DCC?
> 
> In the "old daze" it would be easy to see what switch was in what direction because you could just look at the panel of switches in front of you. But isn't all that replaced with a hand held controller now? What does the controller present you on it's display that enables a person to keep track of 10 - 20 turnouts?
> 
> Thanks.


Tortoise switch motors have a couple of pins that will allow you to wire a panel to let you know what way the switch is thrown. It is pretty cool how it works and will help you align switches at a glance. You will need stationary decoders to make it all work on DCC. I am using digitrax on my layout and when I do get around to replacing ground throws with switch motors I am also going to be using Panel Pro (part of JMRI) to make a CTC station for the dispatcher. Even tho my layout can be run by 2 people why not add a third to spice things up with dispatch. Oh and when I am done dispatch could be in the house while we are out in the shed. I have radios and my shed is wired for networking.

Massey


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## xrunner

Massey said:


> You will need stationary decoders to make it all work on DCC. I am using digitrax on my layout and when I do get around to replacing ground throws with switch motors I am also going to be using Panel Pro (part of JMRI) to make a CTC station for the dispatcher. Even tho my layout can be run by 2 people why not add a third to spice things up with dispatch. Oh and when I am done dispatch could be in the house while we are out in the shed. I have radios and my shed is wired for networking.


Yea I'm getting up to speed on the new stuff that they didn't have when I was a kid. I'm understanding it pretty well so far. I'm not quite there but I am a computer geek and I do know how to interface PCs with external devices - that's what I did in a lab for years.

I'm going to go with a computer interface to control it all. I also want to control lights in houses and all manner of other types of things. Should keep me off the streets for quite some time I would imagine.


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## xrunner

Current state of affairs, and to show Massey a pic so he can play with a layout design. The long length of the table is 102" and the short length against the wall is 61".


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## tjcruiser

Xrunner,

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you make that right hand side abut the wall over its full length? Is there enough room to walk between the layout and the wall to acces trains there?

TJ


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> Just out of curiosity, why didn't you make that right hand side abut the wall over its full length?


I made the table out of 3 old closet doors. Instead of making a rectangular table laying them all 3 one after another, I decided to make it a little differently for a different look, and so there was a space to get to the other side of the table.




> Is there enough room to walk between the layout and the wall to acces trains there?


Yes.


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## Massey

OK this is N scale right? I am going to have to load the N scale patterns in my program. Are you partial to the unitrack or are you open to free laid flex track?

Massey


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## xrunner

Massey said:


> OK this is N scale right?


Yes.



> I am going to have to load the N scale patterns in my program. Are you partial to the unitrack or are you open to free laid flex track?


Unitrack is what I plan on using. Thanks.


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## xrunner

I decided to make a separate module to hold the rails. I used balsa wood and glued it all together while holding it in gauge. All I have to do now is glue it down on top of the inspection pit. It turned out extremely well.

The white pieces of paper at the sides of the pit are light boxes. Everything inside there is painted white. A white LED goes up inside each of the light boxes and shines out all the little windows.


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## sstlaure

Very cool, looks great.


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## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> Very cool, looks great.


Thanks!

Here's the finished product, with my new Loco sitting atop it. One of these days I'll actually have a layout to install it on.


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## sstlaure

I really like the inspection lights. Great project.


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## tjcruiser

That's really coming to life. I like the little staircase on either end, too!

TJ


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## Big Ed

Looks great:thumbsup:, but that guy better sit down a little lower.

He looks too high or the pit should have been a little deeper?
It almost looks like he would have to lay down to inspect.

Great ideal the lights.


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Looks great:thumbsup:, but that guy better sit down a little lower.
> 
> He looks too high or the pit should have been a little deeper?
> It almost looks like he would have to lay down to inspect.


He's not all the way down in the pit - he's sitting on a little "bridge".



> Great ideal the lights.


Well, the pit wasn't designed by me, it was designed by John Witten of Scale Scenes. 

http://www.scalescenes.com/products/R002c

However I made some changes to the design such as making the floor outside the pit at the top of the rail height and adding some other textures like the black/yellow parts.

It was designed for an LED lighting strip made by this company -

http://www.blackcattech.co.uk/

I didn't use that. I made light boxes into which I inserted a bright white LED into 4 locations.


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## xrunner

My current Locomotive inventory (minus Mr. Atlas SD24 who is traveling via UPS to his vendor)


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## xrunner

My Digitrax system is here! Now, does anybody know how to turn this thing on? :laugh:


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## Coastie

Great start Xrunner, I like your progress so far. I think I am in a similar boat, just getting back into the hobby, but on an HO scale. I'll be interested in following your progress into DCC and tying it into your computer; it's a plan I have down the line as well. I think if your creativity with the inspection kit is a sign of what you can do, we are going to be watching one ingenious build!


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## NIMT

OK xrunner to make it operate properly you will need to ship it too.....:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Well it's been half a day that sucker should be up and running by now!
After you get all set up put a fan on it to keep it cool and long lasting!

I attached a computer fan right to the back of mine!


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## xrunner

It's working fine! Bachmann engine runs smooth as silk! I love the way the trains runs and reverses ... But ... 

Check soon for the "Changing a decoder Address" because I can't change the address on this POS Bachmann GP7.


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## Massey

You have to manually change one of the CVs before it will let you program the Bachmann engine. There is a thread around here about it just a couple of weeks ago. 

Massey


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## xrunner

Coastie said:


> Great start Xrunner, I like your progress so far. I think I am in a similar boat, just getting back into the hobby, but on an HO scale. I'll be interested in following your progress into DCC and tying it into your computer; it's a plan I have down the line as well. I think if your creativity with the inspection kit is a sign of what you can do, we are going to be watching one ingenious build!


Thanks! Keep us informed of your progress too.



NIMT said:


> OK xrunner to make it operate properly you will need to ship it too.....:laugh::laugh::laugh:
> Well it's been half a day that sucker should be up and running by now!
> After you get all set up put a fan on it to keep it cool and long lasting!


As long as I keep the wiring correct (don't get too excited and rush to hook it up) I'll be in tall cotton!



Massey said:


> You have to manually change one of the CVs before it will let you program the Bachmann engine. There is a thread around here about it just a couple of weeks ago.


I fixed it - my bad. I hooked up one programming track wire to the ground terminal. :lame:


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## Massey

OH that will do it. I made the same mistake before but I never got an engine on the rails. I have to tie my PM42 into the ground lead and when I went to wire that up I found the issue. Glad you got it all up and running now.

Massey


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## xrunner

I have tomorrow booked - just me and little GP7. We're going to see just what these CVs do and how far we can go. If it breaks I'll just reset the decoder. Should be interesting!


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## xrunner

Digitrax installed. I have tested it on untetherred ops and it works, but as I have researched it eats batteries for lunch. I wish the cord was longer, I have the tools and parts to make the cables but the end of the cable on the DT 402D can't be unplugged.  Why did they make it so short?


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## Massey

They made it so short because it is a radio throttle. If you leave the battery in the throttle when you are not using it then yes it will eat it up fast. You can take the battery and put it in reverse polarity to store it in the throttle but not hurt anything. Do not, let me repeat that DO NOT put the battery in with the posts against the spring since that will short it out.

Massey


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think I'd just find room for a tiny slide switch to kill the battery, easier than pulling it out.


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## xrunner

I'm about 90% sure I'm going to expand the table of my layout. I have another closet door and after looking at what I have built for several weeks I just don't want to be in a position where I regret not having enough room for a good sized layout.

But, I am not addicted to this hobby and I can stop anytime I want to. Really, I can.


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## Coastie

If this was Facebook, I would 'Like' your post and provide nothing of substance. But since this is not Facebook...

I'd say make that 90% a 100%! If you got the room to do it, do it, nothing like regret. I'm in the same boat again, getting ready to do a write up from last night's experience discovering that i want something bigger. And I believe you to be a strong individual, this is not an addiction!


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## xrunner

Layout increased by 1 closet door -


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## xrunner




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## sstlaure

xrunner....I'm a RR junkie and I LOVE my addiction.....Quitting is for quitters. Nice expansion.


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## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> xrunner....I'm a RR junkie and I LOVE my addiction.....Quitting is for quitters. Nice expansion.


Thanks. What do you think of this idea -

I'm thinking about making a military base with runway on my layout. I have some metal aircraft models that I've collected over the years, and they are pretty close to N scale. They also came with sectional pieces of foam runway which can be snapped together. 

A real F-15 has a wingspan of 43 ft and length of 64 ft. This model's wingspan in N scale equates to 38 ft and length to 56 ft, which I think is close enough for government work. I got a string of small blue LEDs from Wal Mart which I would use as the taxiway edge lights which really look cool lit up. 










Here's what it might look like -










I think I'll deliver nuclear weapons to the base on my train :-O


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## Big Ed

"I think I'll deliver nuclear weapons to the base on my train :-O"

Watch what you say, you will have the DHS investigating you.:laugh:

That would look nice, Do you know why they use blue instead of yellow or red?

Never mind I found the answer,

* d. Runway/Taxiway marking system 
Runway lights are installed to provide visual guidance at night under low-visibility conditions during aircraft takeoff and landing operations. Taxiway lights are blue. Their spacing is variable. Two blue lights, called entrance-exit lights, are spaced 5 feet apart and are placed on each side of a taxiway entrance to or exit from a runway or parking area. The taxi lights are turned on as soon as the pilot of an aircraft is cleared to taxi out. They are turned off when the the aircraft is on the runway or another taxiway. For inbound aircraft, they are turned on as the aircraft approaches the taxiway and turned off when the aircraft is parked. *


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've never seen the taxiway lights turned off at a large airport. Some of the small airports I flew into, you actually controlled all the lights by keying the mike briefly on a specific VHF frequency, that would light the lights for about 30 minutes or so.


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## NIMT

Xrunner, Love the runway light idea!:thumbsup:


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## sstlaure

If you've got the room for it, then go for it. You could even have shipments of jet fuel, etc delivered to the base. Very cool.


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## xrunner

Current track setup using double crossover and 15 deg crossing. This is in no way my design for a layout, it's just playing around with parts to see what can be done.


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## xrunner

Flatcar Loads -

Water Piping. Made this load from Q-tip shafts. I don't know what they are made of but neither Testor's plastic cement nor plastic weld would phase it. It just laughed at these glues and shed them right off! Had to use CA glue.

More to come ...


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## tjcruiser

Love it! Those q-tip pipes look perfect on that flatcar. What are you using for strapping? You pic makes me think that ribbon from an old audio casette might work well (perhaps trimmed in width for N).

TJ


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## sstlaure

I agree....that pipe load looks terrific.


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> Love it! Those q-tip pipes look perfect on that flatcar. What are you using for strapping?


The strapping idea came from an article in the latest Model Railroader "Build a Realistic Flatcar Load", p. 48. It is 1/16" black graphics art tape, obtained from Hobby Lobby. I really could have used smaller straps but didn't feel I could cut the tape in half accurately.


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## NIMT

Looks Excellent!:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed

Coastie said:


> If this was Facebook, I would 'Like' your post and provide nothing of substance. But since this is not Facebook...
> 
> I'd say make that 90% a 100%! If you got the room to do it, do it, nothing like regret. I'm in the same boat again, getting ready to do a write up from last night's experience discovering that i want something bigger. And I believe you to be a strong individual, this is not an addiction!



That is what I always say bigger is better..
Figure out how much space you got and go for it. You don't have to build it all at once but plan on using it.

And I disagree with you if your talking about trains.
It is an addiction.

We have a lot of trainaholics on the site.
All different gauges, all types.
Some of us have it worse then others,
Look what Choo Choo is building.:laugh:

And I am jealous I can't.


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## xrunner

I'm going to do a rebar load next. As far as I can tell, they secure the loads with a wide variety of things; whatever works at the time it seems is what is used - wood, straps, etc. In other words, I don't think anyone could look at your model and say "they wouldn't secure the load that way!". 

I found some good sites with a lot of rail pics with real loads such as this site -










http://www.krunk.org/~joeshaw/pics/ttx/ttjx/


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## Massey

I have seen this type of load many time on both rail and semi and yes they are secured in many different ways. Typically there are 6x6 or 4x4 (depending on the weight of the load) underneath and 2x4s in between layers to make unloading easier, and that also gives the ability to secure the load in layers for added securing strength.

Massey


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## xrunner

Trucks and wood. 

Still working on a rebar load and a load of a diamond plate sheets.


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## Big Ed

Your loads look great.:thumbsup:

Question, what is a Q-tip "shaft"?

The Q-tips I have don't look anything like those?

Mine are just little sticks with cotton on the ends, they don't look anything like what you used.

Edit, I do like the color of them.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

Ed,

Some generic Q-tips clones come with a hollow plastic shaft.

TJ


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Your loads look great.:thumbsup:


Thnx.



> Question, what is a Q-tip "shaft"?


The part that holds the cotton on the ends. These came from Kroger and they are hollow blue sticks.



> Edit, I do like the color of them.:thumbsup:


Yea they are the color of water! Bwahahahahahaha! :laugh:


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## Conductorjoe

Nice work ! Looks good. Really like the flatcar loads. :thumbsup:


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## xrunner

Conductorjoe said:


> Nice work ! Looks good. Really like the flatcar loads. :thumbsup:


How do you like this one? Rebar on a flatcar. Definitely the hardest one I've attempted so far.


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## Big Ed

I never saw Q Tips like that.

You used them first right?


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## NIMT

That is one convincing rebar load!:smilie_daumenpos: Excellent job! :appl:


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> You used them first right?














NIMT said:


> That is one convincing rebar load!:smilie_daumenpos: Excellent job! :appl:


Thanks for your opinion. I would have made one more layer but the little car was getting heavy!


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## tjcruiser

xrunner said:


>


I happened to see a real-life load of PVC (?) drainage pipes today where the pipes were exactly that same color. Perfect match!


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> I happened to see a real-life load of PVC (?) drainage pipes today where the pipes were exactly that same color. Perfect match!


That's cool - thanks for the info.

Incidentally, that flatcar I used for the rebar - re-posted smaller below, is a Lima N scale model company now defunct -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_(models)

I had it when I was a kid, prolly ~40 years ago! Now it's got a new mission!


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## Conductorjoe

xrunner said:


> How do you like this one? Rebar on a flatcar. Definitely the hardest one I've attempted so far.


Thats nice. I like to see scratch modeling and kitbashing. I havent built anything new lately since I am back in the track laying again. Making models that way is fun.
Ill get back into that soon enough. Right now its track and scenery on the new layout.


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## xrunner

Diamond Plate Load

I made the plates from pieces of polypropylene strapping cut into pieces, 10 pieces per bundle. glued together, I then painted them silver. I tied them down with #20 thread which I rubbed in rusty weathering powder. I used a little poetic license on this one, i.e., I didn't model it after any specific load I saw, and it might not be tied down exactly like the real thing, but I think it looks neat.


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## tjcruiser

xrunner said:


> polypropylene strapping


Like the 1" wide stuff you'd see tying a bundle of large boxes together? Clever use of texture ... I like it! :thumbsup:

TJ


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> Like the 1" wide stuff you'd see tying a bundle of large boxes together?
> TJ


Yes sir, but this is more like 1/2".


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## NIMT

Out of the park home run.:thumbsup: You have a talent for the loads!
Little tiny bit o' constructive criticism... If you use a piece of stranded wire, the tie downs would look better.


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Out of the park home run.:thumbsup: You have a talent for the loads!


Thanx.



> Little tiny bit o' constructive criticism... If you use a piece of stranded wire, the tie downs would look better.


I'm open to checking it out - can you point me to an example I can look at?


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## ram17x

xrunner,
First time I've scanned through your layout progress thread....excellent work.
Great research and execution on the various loads. Pretty hard to get
our N scale stuff looking legit sometimes.
I've got a 3' x 5' hollow door layout in process....always too hard to decide
what to work on...cars, structures, scenery....it's all good
Keep up the good work.
Rich


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## xrunner

ram17x said:


> xrunner,
> First time I've scanned through your layout progress thread....excellent work.
> Great research and execution on the various loads. Pretty hard to get
> our N scale stuff looking legit sometimes.


Thank you for your kind words.



> I've got a 3' x 5' hollow door layout in process....always too hard to decide
> what to work on...cars, structures, scenery....it's all good
> Keep up the good work.
> Rich


I'm working on loads and such because I'm putting off the design of my track layout, because I don't think I have enough knowledge of what I want yet - but no rush right?

BTW - I have been sent a message that NIMT is preparing a demo of using stranded wire in place of thread for rope. I'm sure it will be quite impressive and helpful!


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## NIMT

I don't know if pictures do them justice, they look like cables.
Because it's wire you can tighten the wire better than thread.
I take stranded wire and spin it tighter in a drill, gives it more of a cable look.


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> I don't know if pictures do them justice, they look like cables.
> Because it's wire you can tighten the wire better than thread.
> I take stranded wire and spin it tighter in a drill, gives it more of a cable look.


Very nice. Yes they do look like cables. I wasn't specifically going for a metal cable look on that last model, I wanted it to look like rope, but that is a good idea for cables. And, yes they would be a lot easier to snug up, the thread is hard to tie tightly!

Thanks.


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## xrunner

OK friends - here's my next load idea. I got 2 centerbeam flatcars this weekend. I'm thinking of how to make a wrapped lumber load. I got some logos and made a panoramic image and scaled it so it fits exactly in the side of the car. This prototype image is 5 x 9 units of wrapped lumber (this is an actual size from a real railroad car with this load). I just cut it out and set it in there for a test view, but it needs to have depth to it which I can provide with some thin pieces of foam. I would also wrap the graphics "strapping" tape around the stacks which will provide additional detail.

So what do you think of this method? Any suggestions?


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## tjcruiser

Xrunner,

No ideas there, but if I may ...

In your prior stacked lumber flatcar, you show the lumber sort of loose-piled, with a pair of straps across the top. I don't know much about real-life train loads, but I do know a bit about lumber. In most cases, milled lumber wants to be packed tightly, with essentially no gaps between planks. A tight fit helps to prevent plank warping enroute.

Just some food for thought ...

TJ


----------



## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> In your prior stacked lumber flatcar, you show the lumber sort of loose-piled, with a pair of straps across the top. I don't know much about real-life train loads, but I do know a bit about lumber. In most cases, milled lumber wants to be packed tightly, with essentially no gaps between planks. A tight fit helps to prevent plank warping enroute.


Yes, you're right, and I can 'splain it.

That car was an original N scale from when I was a kid - a Lima model. It originally came with 2 N scale automobiles on it that fit onto the little nubs that are still there. I didn't want to cut them off so I fit the lumber around the nubs - that's why the gap is there. I have since realized how to disguise the load, and now that you have brought it forward I will re-do it to suit your observation.

Thanks.


----------



## tjcruiser

Smart thinking to cut the lumber to fit around the flatbed nubs ... hide the evidence, so to speak! Very clever thinking.

Please let me reiterate that I wasn't trying to be critical of your handiwork ... rather, just making a point about lumber stacks. However, if you do restack the load, I'll happily offer an extra thumbs up!

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> Please let me reiterate that I wasn't trying to be critical of your handiwork ... rather, just making a point about lumber stacks.


I know. 



> However, if you do restack the load, I'll happily offer an extra thumbs up!


Oh I wouldn't be posting these things if I didn't expect to get constructive criticism. I will be redoing the load - expect a "re-engineered" model in the next few daze. Whatever it takes to put off the design of my final track plan ...


----------



## kursplat

xrunner said:


> OK friends - here's my next load idea. I got 2 centerbeam flatcars this weekend. I'm thinking of how to make a wrapped lumber load. I got some logos and made a panoramic image and scaled it so it fits exactly in the side of the car. This prototype image is 5 x 9 units of wrapped lumber (this is an actual size from a real railroad car with this load). I just cut it out and set it in there for a test view, but it needs to have depth to it which I can provide with some thin pieces of foam. I would also wrap the graphics "strapping" tape around the stacks which will provide additional detail.
> 
> So what do you think of this method? Any suggestions?


i was just re-reading this article in Model Railroad Hobbyist online magazine the other night instead of working  nice selection of ready to print out loads


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## xrunner

kursplat said:


> i was just re-reading this article in Model Railroad Hobbyist online magazine the other night instead of working :laugh: nice selection of ready to print out loads


LOL - that's funny! Small world eh?


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> I don't know if pictures do them justice, they look like cables.
> Because it's wire you can tighten the wire better than thread.
> I take stranded wire and spin it tighter in a drill, gives it more of a cable look.


Hobby Lobby stuff again. I found this in the beading aisle. It looks amazingly like a steel cable in N scale, although you can't tell from this shot. It has 7 strands and I got 2 different sizes to try out. I will be using it on the load for the centerbeam flatcars.


----------



## NIMT

Excellent find! I'm all about scale because if you stay in scale, or really close it just looks better.
With the .010 your 1.2" in scale
With the .014 your 1.68" in scale 
So both sizes are very believable.
Try doing a spool of cable with that and it would look really good!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Excellent find! I'm all about scale because if you stay in scale, or really close it just looks better.
> With the .010 your 1.2" in scale
> With the .014 your 1.68" in scale
> So both sizes are very believable.
> Try doing a spool of cable with that and it would look really good!


I'm for staying in scale too ... up to a point. I don't want to be too anal-retentive about it though (which I could be if I wanted to - trust me). In other words, if it looks believable to ~97.84% of the people who will look at this layout, then that's close enough for me. So it goes with that wire. It's small enough to be believable, but we both know it isn't strictly speaking 100% accurate.

Most people that come over here will just say "Oh my gosh! That little cable looks like the real thing! Amazing!"


----------



## NIMT

100% agree!:thumbsup:
I'm no rivet counter, if it looks good that's all that really matters!
#1 Rule, It's yours, if you like it that's all that matters!


----------



## Conductorjoe

Here are some loads I did a few years back. The pipe load is Evergreen Plastic tubing and the braces are small balsa strips.

The first lumber load is balsa strips glued together and tie downs are black sewing thread.

The Lumber load on the car in the box is something you might look for. it is a CS Models lumber kit. Time comsuming and tedious but fun to make. They are tiny wood blocks and cutout wrappers that go over them. I dont see CS Models anymore but saw one on Ebay last week.


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## xrunner

Conductorjoe said:


> Here are some loads I did a few years back. The pipe load is Evergreen Plastic tubing and the braces are small balsa strips.
> 
> The first lumber load is balsa strips glued together and tie downs are black sewing thread.


Excellent work!



> The Lumber load on the car in the box is something you might look for. it is a CS Models lumber kit. Time comsuming and tedious but fun to make. They are tiny wood blocks and cutout wrappers that go over them. I dont see CS Models anymore but saw one on Ebay last week.


Yea I've seen a few of those kits but I hate spending money on things that I believe I can create myself. I have a plan in work that I think will work out well. I'll post a pic when I get something to show. Stay tuned.


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## Conductorjoe

Thanks......
Are those printouts on regular paper that are on the centerbeam? Could wrap those around something square. It would be similar to the CS models kit.


----------



## xrunner

Conductorjoe said:


> Thanks......
> Are those printouts on regular paper that are on the centerbeam? Could wrap those around something square. It would be similar to the CS models kit.


Oh yea, I don't plan on just using a plain sheet of paper like that. I also have some textured paper to try out.


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## Conductorjoe

Oh ok..... Sounds good.


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## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> However, if you do restack the load, I'll happily offer an extra thumbs up!


----------



## tjcruiser

Runner,

Looks great! Square stacked with some jog to end alignment. The red end coloring is a nice touch ... in real life, color is indicative of milled lumber size, and also helps to seal end grain a bit.

As promised ...

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

TJ


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## NIMT

Xrunner,
You really need to remove all the striker off the matches before you load them up and have the explosive, flamming, rolling car of death!:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Exellent job again!:thumbsup: The "cables" look great!


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Xrunner,
> You really need to remove all the striker off the matches before you load them up and have the explosive, flamming, rolling car of death!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## xrunner

Well, I'm going to redo that load. I thought up a much better way to do the cables, among other things.


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## xrunner

Here's my current trail run of securing the cables. It's not perfect but I think it's much more realistic. I'm using canopy glue to hols the cable to the small piece of wire since I didn't want CA to wick up into the cavity. I'll post a final pic if the whole shebang really works out.



















http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/flats/centerbeam/index.html


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## xrunner

Nephew running trains - not too fast!


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## xrunner

Well here it is. I decided to go with green end paint so as not to rile NIMT again -


----------



## NIMT

Just when I thought it you couldn't out do yourself...Here you do it again!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Well I finally sat my butt down and started to work on my "real" layout. I decided to place the yard ops in the area shown below on the table. I did this after much thought, because the area is easy to reach and it leaves the main table area open for many other things and scenes.

The yard spurs will be a little longer, and perhaps a few more sidings, but I ran into the limit of 50 pieces for the trial version of Anyrail. I plan to buy the program this week however.

Any input on this part of the design is appreciated. It's amazing, though, how quickly the available space is used up, even for N scale!


----------



## NIMT

Here is my 2 cents worth.


----------



## xrunner

So it looks like you added 4 turnouts? Does one of them create a reversing loop? If so how do I handle that wiring-wise - I have not investigated that type of scenario.


----------



## NIMT

Its easy to pull that off.


----------



## xrunner

OK thanks. I'll consider it. Also, couldn't I reverse trains like this -

Pull into the A/D siding.
Uncouple and run out to the main, backup to the other siding switch.
Go in and couple to the cars.
Run out and now you are going in the opposite direction.

?

Also, I'm still not 100% sure about how trains are to be made up in the yard/lead track. I did get a book but somehow I just didn't quite get the clear picture. I'm designit based on the picture shown below from "The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design"

Let's say I pull some cars into the yard lead track from a yard spur track. I then uncouple and go forward, then back out via the run-around track. I then get more cars, but when I get to the lead track pulling them I have a problem - I am faced with cars in front of me now. How is it supposed to work? Is the whole train to be made up in a long yard spur and then pulled out all at once into the yard lead? How do I get out via the run-around if there are cars in front of the switcher? Please reference the article and pic shown below.

If you can help explain how this works I'd appreciate it. Is there a video showing exactly how this would work, based on this design?









http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html


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## xrunner

OK I got AnyRail registered (finally). That 50 piece limit was killing me.

So, here is the general plan as of this morning, but more work is needed. I have a 3% rise/descent on the outside left track (1" max height.). Also I need to define industries and make sure the spurs are spaced to accommodate whatever buildings I will have. Right now I only have a Model Power coal depot and an engine house. I ordered $280 worth of additional track also. So far the total length of track is 131 feet.


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## Massey

Well I am no expert here but you dont leave an easy way to get back to your yard, and in the middle of the pic you have a crossover from the inner and outer tracks and then a foot in front of that another turnout with a diamond crossing that crosses over the main to the very outer tracks. This is a collision waiting to happen. Now you have a turntable with an area for a round house and also a maintenance shop as well? Why both? a round house can be used to service diesels just as it can with steam. It is not widely used today due to how cheap it is to build a steel building compaired to repairing and restoring a brick roundhouse so it is not done much any more, but it was done in the 50's-70's. 

On the west side in the middle if you ran a track across where the 2 turns are you would make access back to your yard easy, a reversing loop in the form of a wye and give trains an "east" and "West" path out of the yard. 

Massey


----------



## Massey

Here is what I was talking about










Massey


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## xrunner

Thanks for your inputs.



Massey said:


> Well I am no expert here but you dont leave an easy way to get back to your yard, and in the middle of the pic you have a crossover from the inner and outer tracks and then a foot in front of that another turnout with a diamond crossing that crosses over the main to the very outer tracks. This is a collision waiting to happen.


I'll have to post another pic because some of the tracks' functions are different than what you are inferring. I should have labelled them. There are two mainlines, inside and outside. They connect to an A/D track at the bottom, which goes to the yard.

As far as crossings go - isn't any crossing then "a collision waiting to happen" ? Why would a crossing be used at all if this is the case, in real or model railroads? Yet they are used. The crossing is not providing a crossing over the two mainlines, it only leads to an industry siding from the outer mainline. That bottom outside track which leads to the yard is an arrival/departure track.



> Now you have a turntable with an area for a round house and also a maintenance shop as well? Why both? a round house can be used to service diesels just as it can with steam. It is not widely used today due to how cheap it is to build a steel building compaired to repairing and restoring a brick roundhouse so it is not done much any more, but it was done in the 50's-70's.


That isn't a roundhouse it's an Atlas motorized turntable.



> On the west side in the middle if you ran a track across where the 2 turns are you would make access back to your yard easy, a reversing loop in the form of a wye and give trains an "east" and "West" path out of the yard.


It all depends on what Unitrack will allow, geometry-wise. I can't always make any type of connection or geometry you might suggest. And the track is already on an incline in that area.

Is the yard functionality, as far as making up trains, workable?


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## xrunner

You can see how I envisioned the 15 deg crossing being used. As far as crossings go, help me understand what you are trying to say - what you say could also apply to the double crossover right? Yet Kato makes one to crossover between two tracks. A collision could occur there as well. It all depends on the operator right? I don't want it all too simplistic so as to remove all danger of anything bad happening, but perhaps I'm still not understanding your point of view? How do you envision crossings used?


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## Massey

Crossings are not often used on mainlines, and railroads avoid them when ever possible. You are building a situation that could easily avoid the crossing. You have a pair of switches that switch right in front of the said crossing, why not add another switch to the siding where the crossing is and eliminate it from the main. This will be more realistic and eliminate the danger just as a real road would do.

As far as the wye part in the east I am pretty sure that there will be enough wiggle room to make it happen once you start laying track. I have some N scale unitrack and I know how it fits together. There is wiggle room that will allow the wye and not cause track issues. The software does not know about wiggle room!! 

Massey


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## Massey

OK I know the round thing is a turn table. Below the turn table are tracks set up like they would be going into a roundhouse it looks like that was the plan for that area. 

Here is the idea I was talking about in pictures. Now that track makes since as to what it is.










Massey

P.S. sorry for the downgrade in image quality MS Paint is not the best tool to use but it is all I have at work.


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## xrunner

Massey said:


> Crossings are not often used on mainlines, and railroads avoid them when ever possible. You are building a situation that could easily avoid the crossing. You have a pair of switches that switch right in front of the said crossing, why not add another switch to the siding where the crossing is and eliminate it from the main. This will be more realistic and eliminate the danger just as a real road would do.


OK I will remove the crossing. Maybe I don't need the A/D track concept at all as shown below? 










Is that not useful? Perhaps just drive the train on down to the lead track?



> As far as the wye part in the east I am pretty sure that there will be enough wiggle room to make it happen once you start laying track. I have some N scale unitrack and I know how it fits together.
> Massey


I don't yet understand a "wye' and how it is wired to a reversing unit. I did just read up on the AR1 and do understand how it is wired. How about if I made a reversing loop connected to the inner mainline? Could that work as well to reverse trains?



> There is wiggle room that will allow the wye and not cause track issues. The software does not know about wiggle room!!


How much slop will Unitrack stand? 5mm? 1 cm? 

Thanks.


----------



## sstlaure

xrunner said:


> OK I will remove the crossing. Maybe I don't need the A/D track concept at all as shown below?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that not useful? Perhaps just drive the train on down to the lead track?


The yard lead is typically just used to pull a cut of cars that are already classified out onto the A/D (arrival/departure) track.

Your yard tracks are classifications (think local north/south & over road north/south if you had 4 tracks)

A train comes in the A/D track and drops off it's train, then the engine goes to service for sand/fuel.

A switcher comes up to the A/D track, grabs the train (or a cut of cars) and classifies them onto the various tracks. Once a whole train is classified on the yard tracks and ready for departure, the switcher pulls the cut of cars out onto the yard lead, then pushes them out to the A/D track. Attach a caboose to the appropriate end of the train, then a road engine comes from sand/fuel, hooks to the head of the train and departs.

Your yard lead should be the same length as your longest yard body track (if possible) to minimize back/forth moves to assemble the train on the A/D track.


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> The yard lead is typically just used to pull a cut of cars that are already classified out onto the A/D (arrival/departure) track.
> 
> Your yard tracks are classifications (think local north/south & over road north/south if you had 4 tracks)
> 
> A train comes in the A/D track and drops off it's train, then the engine goes to service for sand/fuel.
> 
> A switcher comes up to the A/D track,...
> 
> Your yard lead should be the same length as your longest yard body ...


OK great sstlaure, then I mostly understood it correctly. I did make the lead and A/D tracks long enough for the trains I want to run. So in my layout, I really do need that A/D track, right?

I am going to remove the crossover and try to make a reversing loop somewhere.

Does that sound like a good plan?


----------



## Massey

With a wye or reversing loop you need to isolate one of the legs of the triangle. Only one leg is needed and it is best to isolate the longest leg. You should also isloate enough track to hold your longest train planned. To isolate the rails simply use the Unitrack insulated joiners on both rails at both sides of the isolation area. and make sure to use a set of feeder wire joiners on the isolated section to wire it to the AR1 or PM42. 

The drawback of a reverse loop over a wye is the reverse loop usually only works in one direction. To change a train back the other way you have to back through the reverse loop. This is not usually a thing that real roads do, but I have done it before and it works ok. To use a wye on the west side of the layout like I added in the first pic I posted will not only allow you to change the direction of entire trains but also have outbound trains the option of going east or west, inbound trains will also have the same options depending on which direction they are traveling around the layout.

The wiggle room of the unitrack will get larger as the layout grows. You have some unitrack set up right now right? Push a little out of alignment just a little and see how the trians handle it, then push a little more and more until they finally cant run that area reliably. You should get quite a bend before things get all funky. I have a loop tha is about 4' x 12" for my little engine and I can distort that pretty good before it starts having problems.


Massey


----------



## xrunner

Wow - look what I just found Googling Kato Wye - do you use 3 of them?













> N New #2 Wye Turnout coming to the UNITRACK line
> 
> *Pre-orders for first delivery due December 15th - 1st Shipment January 2012*
> 
> Kato announces a brand-new (and hotly demanded!) turnout style for N gauge! This turnout is selectable manual/powered and features a screw-terminal controlled power routing control mechanism similar to Kato’s N gauge #4 turnouts. The turnout uses R481-15° curves and can be used to create parallel tracks with 49.5mm spacing by supplementing with R249-15° (#20-101) curve tracks or 66mm spaced parallel tracks by supplementing with R481-15°(#20-160) curve tracks.
> 
> http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/group.php?discussionid=1304&do=discuss


----------



## Massey

you could but that would not work with your current layout. You will need to simply use 1 right hand turnout and 1 left hand turn out. You already have the the other turnout needed in your cross between the main line #1 and the yard lead. The track piece you show there is called a wye due to it's shape. It is shaped like a "Y" and called a wye. 

The track configuration called a wye is more of a triangle than an actual "Y" shape since you need to cross the top to make it all work.

Here is my Wye on my layout. In this pic I can only turn the engine around but now with the addition of the lower yard I can actually turn an entire train. The only pic I have of this area is while it was being built but you can get the idea of how it is set up.










Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> you could but that would not work with your current layout. You will need to simply use 1 right hand turnout and 1 left hand turn out. You already have the the other turnout needed in your cross between the main line #1 and the yard lead.
> Massey


Is this what you are taking about doing (no, it isn't connected properly yet)


----------



## Massey

yup that is what I am talking about. That is where the "wiggle" room may have to take place if there are no small pieces that can be added or removed.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> yup that is what I am talking about. That is where the "wiggle" room may have to take place if there are no small pieces that can be added or removed.
> 
> Massey


OK I'm working on it - whew! That's a funky set of tracks. I'll post it later today and send you a PM so you can review it. Then tell me how to wire it up too please.

Thanks.


----------



## Massey

no prob just lemme know. 

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Check this out, is this wye going to work with the AR1? Also, now I'm reading I need an AR1 for the turntable too?


----------



## Massey

That looks perfect and I would not change a thing from here on out. As for the AR1 you would be better using a PM42 and this layout could use 2. The first one is for the wye autoreverse and short protection. The second is for the turntable and short protection that takes 4 channels so one PM42 the other PM 42 should be used for the main #1, main #2, yard, and if you want spurs or leave one channel open for future expansion.

The red is where I would put the reversing section. Isolate both rails using insulated unitrack at both ends and set the outputs of the PM42 to power these rails. If the train crosses the gap and there is a polarity mismatch you will heare the PM42 click the polarity over to the other way and the train does not even stall everything is happy. 










Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> That looks perfect and I would not change a thing from here on out.
> 
> Massey


Woot! I may make some minor changes but the basic design is done. Thanks a lot for your help, and also NIMT too.

P.S. Anyone wanting to make a layout - make sure you don't underestimate the amount of table space you will need! It's amazing how fast it gets used up!


----------



## NIMT

Sorry I would make a few more changes for better running maybe.


----------



## sstlaure

xrunner said:


> OK great sstlaure, then I mostly understood it correctly. I did make the lead and A/D tracks long enough for the trains I want to run. So in my layout, I really do need that A/D track, right?
> 
> I am going to remove the crossover and try to make a reversing loop somewhere.
> 
> Does that sound like a good plan?


If you want to avoid fouling the mainline when trains come into the yard, then yes, the A/D track is needed. Doing this allows for simulation of through freight or passenger operations that bypass that particular yard. (Basically allows heavier traffic on the layout)

I used that exact same diagram when designing my single ended yard and it's a great start for any size yard...You can add additional classification tracks, dedicated North/Southbound yards (basically have a yard like that on either side of a dual mainline, etc...they would all be variations on that style. That diagram is in the Track planning for realistic operations book as well as Andy Sperandeo's (sp?) book on Rail yards. Both are great references if operations is what you're after.

A good yard is useful and each track has a purpose in efficiently receiving, sorting and sending cars on their way. Some use the yard as a place to store/display cars, which is fine if that's what you want. I like operations and from that standpoint I wanted it to function like the real thing.


----------



## Massey

The changes that NIMT suggest gives you a second wye that will allow for trains to enter the yard from east or west and you can also turn entire trains without backing through the wye. Also the changes to the crossover area make for a smoother transition from the yard to main 2. I like it. 

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> The changes that NIMT suggest gives you a second wye that will allow for trains to enter the yard from east or west and you can also turn entire trains without backing through the wye. Also the changes to the crossover area make for a smoother transition from the yard to main 2. I like it.
> 
> Massey


Thanks for explaining Massey, sstlaure -

but NIMT ...

Thanks for your inputs, and I love you man, but please, please, _please_ explain _why_ your are making the changes. I need you to do this so I can understand the changes. I'm still learning to read the sheet of music, but your just added several lines of music that I don't get.

For example if you move the switch to the left like that on the A/D track then a long train (9 cars) will not fit on the A/D track. What good is that then?

Also guys, I do not understand what we are doing here with some of these changes and the concept of an A/D track. What good is more entrances to the Yard if a train is supposed to enter an A/D track first? I'm just missing something left unsaid here. Eventually I'll "get it" but not quite yet.

Another Wye? How is that one wired, if it really is another Wye? And so on. The other spur changes are no big deal, but I need fundamental explanation of your other changes vis-a-vis operations and the concept of this diagram -


----------



## xrunner

NIMT, just got back home. I drew this up with labels. With respect to the changes you made, please look at the labels I put on the layout. Placing another curve into the yard won't work, because it will be full of cars - the way would be blocked.

You also shortened the A/D track, which wouldn't hold my max train of 9 cars (+engine) if I pulled into it from a mainline.

The other spur changes are all well and good, but I'd love to hear your thoughts now and if I'm missing some Grand Philosophy (which is entirely possible) I'd love for you to help me understand it.

Thanks.


----------



## Massey

Your A/D track is too far from the yard to be effective and it is more of a siding than anything else. Your A/D track is what you are refering to a yard lead (the track on the right anyway) That is a good place to drop off your train and let the yard engine have at it.

If you use the area you want as an A/D track you will block the entire access to the yard if you have a train waiting for processing or pickup. This is not a good thing, if you use the siding and the area you call a yard lead closer to the yard then you can still get trains out and in a the same time.

If you look at the way I set my yard up I am using one of the yard tracks as the Arrival track. Track 1 (closest to the wall) is my arrival track. It has an engine escape so the arriving engine is not stuck and it can move out to be serviced or pick up it's next run. Track 2 and 3 can be used as departure tracks and still allow for arrivals, they are also used to assemble trains as needed. (track 1 can also serve this purpose) I usually do not use track 2 as a departure track if I know there is a train arriving soon so I dont lock the engine on track 1 but I can use it if I want or if track 3 is full. I also have engine repair and fueling/wash tracks as well. All this is done on 6' x 12" of HO scale madness. 

How are you planning on operating your yard or are you simply following a schematic and hoping for the best? 

Look at what you are labling as an A/D track as a siding and see if you can see why NIMT did what he did.

Massey


----------



## Massey

OH and the track that NIMT uses for the second wye would become part of the main line and give you more and if you ask me better running options. It also gives you a way to change routes on your layout if you have an "accident" or maintenance on an area that this route could bypass. It would add some operating interest as well as a second way to turn trains. The extra channel on the 2nd PM 42 could be used for this as well and you can link it to the same power district as the other wye for short protection.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> Your A/D track is too far from the yard to be effective and it is more of a siding than anything else.


What's the difference between a siding and a A/D track?



> Your A/D track is what you are refering to a yard lead (the track on the right anyway) That is a good place to drop off your train and let the yard engine have at it.


Yes that is where I drop off the train and let the yard engine have it, and yes that is what an Arrival/Departure track is for - mine is right off the main line, just like the schematic's. So I don't understand what you are telling me. The yard lead is a different track. Look at the schematic. I see something very different than what you see.



> If you use the area you want as an A/D track you will block the entire access to the yard if you have a train waiting for processing or pickup. This is not a good thing, if you use the siding and the area you call a yard lead closer to the yard then you can still get trains out and in a the same time.


Well Massey, I don't understand. The design I used is based on the schematic I have posted several times already -










I don't understand why you say the A/D track is a "yard lead'. Look at the schematic. My yard would function just as that schematic would. I have a yard lead and I have a separate A/D track, siding, or whatever you want to call it, just as the schematic does. But I didn't just capture a random schematic, I read the guy's entire web page explaining it several times. What he explains about the design, I have implemented. What about it did I not implement? Sure one could expand it many times larger, more tracks, etc, but the basic core functionality is there.

The whole train (minus engine) is made up on the yard lead track with a run-around. I have that. After the train is made up, it is transferred to the A/D track where an engine is waiting to hook up. I have that also. They are 2 different tracks. So I'm sorry if I appear dumb, but I cannot understand what you are trying to tell me. I do very much want to understand, but we're not communicating well enough for that yet. And believe me, this is _way_ more frustrating for me than it is for you.



> How are you planning on operating your yard or are you simply following a schematic and hoping for the best?


No. I plan on operating it just as sstlaure explained. I don't understand why you say it won't work that way. I have had the yard lead track, and A/D track operating in the last few days (it's all torn apart now due to changes you all have suggested) and I ran a train on it and was able to make up a train, switch on the yard spurs, transfer to the yard lead, hook up an engine, and go out on the A/D track. So again, I can't transfer your reasoning into why it won't work properly.



> Look at what you are labling as an A/D track as a siding and see if you can see why NIMT did what he did.


I did, and I can't. 

I do very much appreciate your help and I hope you don't give up trying to explain things. Maybe you could design a yard your way and we can compare it to the schematic I have been working from. That might clear things up. Could you do that? 'Cause right now I'm very frustrated.


----------



## Big Ed

I have been quietly watching for a while.

You are planning an interesting layout :thumbsup:, no matter how it ends up.
Wheres the black lagoon going?

I estimate in another few years you will start laying the rail.

Continue please, I will go back to lurking.


----------



## sstlaure

xrunner.

The real way the yard in your schematic works is that the trains are assembled in the yard track, not on what you have labelled as the yard lead.

Your yard is a little different in that the yard faces away from the mainline.

Because your switcher will already be on the correct side of the cars to pull them out to your A/D track, you don't need a dedicated yard lead. In the schematic above, the yard switcher pulls a cut of cars off a yard track and onto the yard lead (used to avoid fouling mainline) then it reverses direction and pushes that cut of cars up to the A/D track.

Essentially, the main track directly off of your yard is the yard lead, then the first siding you come to could be the A/D track. When a road engine pulls into the yard it will be at the head of the train coming into the yard, the switcher can sit on the yard lead just short of the turnout to allow the road engine to pass and enter the A/D, this would then allow the switcher to get on the correct side of the cars to push them into the yard. Once the switcher clears the yard lead, the road engine can disconnect from the train, move forward, then back out on the yard lead to engine service.

Now what you could do is

1) instead of the snakey track at the North end of the yard causing your engines to always enter the yard facing inward (on the wrong side of engine servicing) you could run a 90 degree turn from where you have A/D labelled from west to south (assume up is north) onto the 1st yard track making it a mainline entrance from the other side of the yard. This does create a reverse loop in the yard, but it would allow you to have both an arriving and departing train ready to go with the yard lead/siding arrangement you have (essentially 2 A/D tracks if you call the track coming off the yard body the lead) 

or

If you can afford a couple extra inches, run a parallel mainline alongside the yard body and connect it in to where you currently have the yard lead labelled. That way when a switcher is pulling the cut of cars to the A/D track, an engine can still enter/leave the yard.

2) make a simple wye track at the north end to allow trains to enter/leave the yard entrance from either direction and eliminate the snakey/parallel trackage.


----------



## Massey

OK first use the schematic as a tool to inspire you not as a this is how is has to go item. You can change and edit the schematic as you see fit to suit your needs. 

Here is the changes that NIMT made with the red for the reversing section of the wye and some numbers for explainations.

#1 This is just a siding to ease traffic in and out of the yard as well as the grain silos at #3. This is not a very good place to put an A/D track since using it as such here will foul access to the grain silos at #3 and foul access to the yard.

#2 This area of track forms a reverse section of a wye and the first yard track now becomes an alternate route going around the yard. This will improve traffic and give better access to the yard and the arrival track at #4

#3 I moved the grain silo away from the switch so you can better "fill" cars without fouling the siding or main.

#4 This maks a great arrival track and allows the engine to use the main as a run around or direct access to the turntable for maintenance or storage. If you move the engine house to the area I have marked Fuel/wash then you could put a switch to allow the engines to directly access the yard (I did not draw this but I can if you want).

Does this better explain things for ya










Massey


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## xrunner

OK, I see some very good reading material here from Massey and sstlaure. Please let me study what you have said vs. my layout for several hours and I will get back to you.

Thank you for your patience!


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## sstlaure

I'd simplify it one step further. Above where you have #2 labelled, instead of the wye having a long parallel track to the mainline, get rid of the turnout at the current wye entrance and move it up to the track above, inline with the first yard track, make the wye a simple triangle. You could either then make the yard tracks longer or use this space for detail work (service shacks, vehicle parking, etc.)


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> I have been quietly watching for a while.


I figured as much.



> You are planning an interesting layout :thumbsup:, no matter how it ends up.
> Wheres the black lagoon going?


Black? I thought you wanted pure Blue Zero Water in lakes and streams?












> I estimate in another few years you will start laying the rail.


At least.



> Continue please, I will go back to lurking.


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> I'd simplify it one step further. Above where you have #2 labelled, instead of the wye having a long parallel track to the mainline, get rid of the turnout at the current wye entrance and move it up to the track above,


Yes, yes, very good idea. I hope I can schmooze the unitrack to achieve that.


----------



## Massey

I dont know how well the software works in the program you are using but some times you just need to start building to get everything just right. I found that there were a few things my program would not let me do but when I started laying rail I made it happen the way I wanted it to happen in the first place. I like Scott's change, it makes for less track but more realistic layout.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> I dont know how well the software works in the program you are using but some times you just need to start building to get everything just right. I found that there were a few things my program would not let me do but when I started laying rail I made it happen the way I wanted it to happen in the first place. I like Scott's change, it makes for less track but more realistic layout.
> 
> Massey


Yea, the geometry is kicking my a** at the moment. That wye is not wanting to cooperate at all. The pieces are just not connecting no matter what I try, and I've tried a lot. I'll keep at it however.


----------



## Massey

Like I said you may have to just get the pieces and set it up physically. Do you have any of the Unitrack insulated joiners? You will need to isolate the areas I have in red on both sides both rails.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> Like I said you may have to just get the pieces and set it up physically.


That's what I'm playing with right now, but it's not working out at all. Even schmoozing it isn't going to work. I'm not giving up yet but it isn't looking good.



> Do you have any of the Unitrack insulated joiners? You will need to isolate the areas I have in red on both sides both rails.
> 
> Massey


I have to order them so I will leave out a piece to prevent a short.


----------



## CasperFLSTC

xrunner said:


> Yea, the geometry is kicking my a** at the moment. That wye is not wanting to cooperate at all. The pieces are just not connecting no matter what I try, and I've tried a lot. I'll keep at it however.


xrunner

CHeck out the settings tab and look at distance and angle. I THINK (emphasis on think) that controls the "error" rate. Mine is set at 1/8 and 3. I believe this means that my track ends must be within 1/8 inch and 3 degrees to connect. You may want to open them up a bit if its giving you a hassle.


----------



## NIMT

Thanks to Scott and Massey for explaining what I was trying to do for you xrunner!:thumbsup:
It looks like your on the right path!


----------



## xrunner

CasperFLSTC said:


> xrunner
> 
> CHeck out the settings tab and look at distance and angle. I THINK (emphasis on think) that controls the "error" rate. Mine is set at 1/8 and 3. I believe this means that my track ends must be within 1/8 inch and 3 degrees to connect. You may want to open them up a bit if its giving you a hassle.


Yea I know about that. I'm playing with the physical track pieces right now. I think I figured it out. It's like some kind of jigsaw puzzle from Hell. 

It looks like I need a R249 15 deg piece, which I don't have at the moment. However, I might kitbash an R249 45 deg with my dremel tool. Anyone ever make a custom piece of Kato Unitrack?


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Thanks to Scott and Massey for explaining what I was trying to do for you xrunner!:thumbsup:
> It looks like your on the right path!


Aha - so NOW you show up!


----------



## NIMT

OPPS,...would you believe I was busy...


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## Massey

THe issue you are running into right now is the exact reason I use flex track!! It is cheaper and does not have limitations like sectional track. Anyway I dont think I would chance editing a piece of Unitrack due to how it is made.

Massey


----------



## kursplat

i was wondering when this would turn in to "how to hand lay unitrack" 

layout design's looking good :thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> THe issue you are running into right now is the exact reason I use flex track!! It is cheaper and does not have limitations like sectional track. Anyway I dont think I would chance editing a piece of Unitrack due to how it is made.
> 
> Massey


I got it. I need a piece of R249-15 for the last bit. Don't ask me how I got there - just don't try doing something like this while drinking. 

Massey - you see the whiteish Unitrack in the pic? I got 10 pcs several months ago from an old guy in of of the LHS. He said it was never used but it's like 10+ years old. It doesn't match new Unitrack as far as color goes but it's all R249-45. I don't mind slicing up one of them to make a temp part. I am not going to use any of it in my final layout. Besides I need something to do while my next order of track is on it's way.


----------



## NIMT

WHAT....Your building Wye with out a Wye turnout....I ask you Why????
HAHAHAHA Just messing with you!
Your doing great!


----------



## Massey

Looks like you got it all goin. Keep up the good work and lets see some trains running!!

Massey


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## xrunner

Take a look now, offer more tweaks, it won't hurt my feelings -


----------



## Massey

OK lemme see here, the red is the reversing section. 2 channels for reversing and 1 channel for short protection. You can also tie the turntable into the short protection of the first PM42 and have it handle the entire reversing section with both reversing and short protection (3 channels reversing and 1 for overload) The second PM42 I would say use 1 channel to handle each mainline and the connecting industries (2 channels) and then another channel to handle the yard area from the ends of the red all the way around, the ladder and the engine shop. This leaves you one extra channel for future expansion!

Massey


----------



## kursplat

i really like where the design has gone, the yard looks a lot more functional. are you sure you'll have enough reach to work on the furthest part of the wye once you have scenery in place?


----------



## xrunner

kursplat said:


> i really like where the design has gone, the yard looks a lot more functional.


Thanks.



> are you sure you'll have enough reach to work on the furthest part of the wye once you have scenery in place?


If I need to get there I can because the whole table easily moves - all the legs have sliders. Even though the table is pretty big I can move it with one hand easily. The most needed areas for human intervention are the ones closest to the operator, like the main yard. I may adjust some of the spurs also to make sure I can decouple cars. There will be a tunnel past the wye and will also incline about 3 % from the wye, then back down past the tunnel. If a train does derail in the tunnel I can move the table and fix it.

I really dreaded coming up with a design because I was afraid I would not be able to live with any one layout. But you have to settle on one if you want to move forward, and with the help of the guys here I think I can enjoy this layout for a long time. The amount of time it will keep me occupied going forward will be quite lengthy, what with all the things I will have to do - wiring, scenery, and eventually a laptop to control switching. 

I hope any lurkers out there who haven't joined and need help will do so, because it's well worth your effort.


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## xrunner

Ed, I made an addition just for you -


----------



## xrunner




----------



## Big Ed

Looks like it is going to be a nice layout.:thumbsup:

I made one change for you can you find it?:thumbsup:

Your welcome.


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## xrunner

Hmmm ... well, it looks like half the park is covered in snowfall? And you turned the lake into a sludge pit, possibly coming from the local sewage treatment plant? An interesting idea at that, well worth considering in the layout.

Look Ed, if you piss me off I'm going to put my 15 deg crossover back into the layout. :appl:


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Hmmm ... well, it looks like half the park is covered in snowfall? And you turned the lake into a sludge pit, possibly coming from the local sewage treatment plant? An interesting idea at that, well worth considering in the layout.
> 
> Look Ed, if you piss me off I'm going to put my 15 deg crossover back into the layout. :appl:



The park was a mistake.hwell:

Don't you know water is black?

Is that the final plan now?
I like. :thumbsup:


----------



## Massey

NOw boys cant we just get along?

ON a side note the layout looks really good. Ya better be postin a mess of pictures of your building it.

Massey


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## xrunner

Massey said:


> NOw boys cant we just get along?


But teacher, Ed is coloring on _my_ picture!  He has his _own_ pictures to color on!

Yea it's pretty much final. I got an order of track due tomorrow and I just made yet another order last night. I'll be hooking it all up for testing in the next few weeks.


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## NIMT

*Water is CLEAR....It has no COLOR!!!!!!*
Oh and the design looks!:thumbsup:


----------



## kursplat

big ed said:


> Don't you know water is black?


TARPIT :thumbsup: a couple of mammoth skeletons and your all set...


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## xrunner

kursplat said:


> TARPIT :thumbsup: a couple of mammoth skeletons and your all set...


Neat idea. If I was modelling a Siberian RR then it just might work.

Jan 2, 2012 PM update. I played with the geometry and somehow found the right pieces to make a complete siding as indicated. Also renamed some of the landscape features as shown.


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## NIMT

I give it :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Wife gives it a second :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Vixen's on her way over with some friends to play!


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## Big Ed

I feel honored.:worshippy::worshippy::worshippy:. Tank you.

But can you give the lake a little more turquoise, 
_it looks too blue_.

Hey, what are the red things? 
Passenger stations?


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> I feel honored.:worshippy::worshippy::worshippy:. Tank you.


You're welcome, fellow Chinese-made little painted people user.



> But can you give the lake a little more turquoise,
> _it looks too blue_.


Tough crowd, tough crowd.



> Hey, what are the red things?
> Passenger stations?


Anyrail has a very limited number of buildings to place on the layout. I don't know what industry it represents yet, but that will come in time. That reminds me of a question. I went looking for industry models but ran into a problem - none of the models I looked at had any dimensions associated with them. So the question is - do you buy the model and then hope for the best as far as how the track will fit given your layout planning? How can I lock down a layout if I don't know whether or not the industry models I order will fit into the available area?


----------



## Big Ed

I could measure for you.

Have you ever seen my N stash?

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7158

Most of this I traded with my nephew. I got it for estimate of $300 bucks worth of 2 old guns.:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Day-um!

Are you using all that N scale stuff? Do you want to sell any?


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Day-um!
> 
> Are you using all that N scale stuff? Do you want to sell any?



It is in boxes, someday I will use it.

Have you seen my old HO?


http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3020


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## xrunner

Ed,

Do you have a pic of either your complete N or HO layout on the forum? I'd like to see it! 

P.S. (hopefully any bodies of water will also be Blue)


----------



## Xnats

lol wait until you see his kitchen floor covered with HOs. He has no n scales compared to the HO collection :laugh: I forget what section it is under though.


----------



## xrunner

But ... back to the original question. I have a dilemma - how can I plan the final layout if the buildings I might want close to where several tracks are near each other, do not list baseline dimensions? :dunno:



xrunner said:


> That reminds me of a question. I went looking for industry models but ran into a problem - none of the models I looked at had any dimensions associated with them. So the question is - do you buy the model and then hope for the best as far as how the track will fit given your layout planning? How can I lock down a layout if I don't know whether or not the industry models I order will fit into the available area?


----------



## Massey

Your delema is the exact reason I dont finalize track positions until I place the building where I want the track. This allows me to fudge the track plan a little to make sure everything fits how it is supposed to fit.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> Your delema is the exact reason I dont finalize track positions until I place the building where I want the track. This allows me to fudge the track plan a little to make sure everything fits how it is supposed to fit.
> 
> Massey


That's what I was afraid of.

One wonders why the simple footprint dimensions of the buildings are not published, given the importance of this as far as planning is concerned? I mean that's some pretty basic information.

I may be able to get away with parts of the plan where it's obvious the building won't run into other tracks, but for some places I will just have to wait and see until after I get the building. This project is going to take a long time I see.


----------



## sstlaure

I've gotten responses from Walther's customer service to requests for footprint size of buildings. I then just make a cardboard template to fit the building into place.

Also, the footprint of most buildings are shown in the large annual catalog that Walthers puts out. (Not all, but most of the common ones. - A lot of times it includes a full dwg that you can simply copy and scale up to size.)


----------



## Gansett

I get a Walthers flyer every month or so, they give the dimesions of their structures. I did a quick search for Like-like which took me to Amazon, there too they give the dimensions, L X W X H.

What are you looking for?


----------



## xrunner

JackC said:


> I get a Walthers flyer every month or so, they give the dimesions of their structures. I did a quick search for Like-like which took me to Amazon, there too they give the dimensions, L X W X H.
> 
> What are you looking for?


OK thanks I'll go to Walthers site. What am I looking for? Other than window shopping buildings that I'm sure would fit by a single track that had space behind it, I would like these items, which I think I'd require dimensions for -

Any type of industry that might serve two tracks side by side (parallel)

An intermodal Hicube crane

A sanding station. I've seen several of these and again, they don't show how far apart to space the 2 tracks they show it serving, so I can't finalize the tracks in that area.


----------



## xrunner

Here's a perfect example from Walther's site - no dimensions. One could not lay out the tracks to go under that thing before they got one. And if it caused ripples downstream by having to adjust the tracks going under it, a lot of tracks might have to be adjusted. Ugh.

Kibri
Sanding & Fuel Tower (2 Track)


----------



## Gansett

Sign up for their flyer.


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## Gansett

No dimension given that I could find on the Kibri site either but it says those dreaded words "out of stock".


----------



## Massey

I noticed that any of the Walther's Cornerstone kits have the dimensions listed but not always the dimensions of each building in a multi building kit. The HO Scale Valley Cement is a prime example as it shows the kit dimensions as they suggest it's layout but there are like 4 buildings that could have a different arrangement. This helps but it is no where near a perfect system. Like I said before I simply wait till I have the building if I cant get the exact dimensions. Also alot of these buildings have a foundation piece that will work for a stand-in if you dont have the building built yet.

Massey


----------



## sstlaure

I'd contact their cust service through their website. It may take a couple days to get a response, but they'll probably be able to get you the info. (Or even contact Kibri)

http://www.viessmann-modell.com/kibri/


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> I'd contact their cust service through their website. It may take a couple days to get a response, but they'll probably be able to get you the info. (Or even contact Kibri)
> 
> http://www.viessmann-modell.com/kibri/


Yea thanks, I'll try that. Right now I just took apart a bunch of track and started to paint that pink foam a light brown. Man, I'm so sick of that pink - the whole layout looks better already.


----------



## raleets

xrunner said:


> Yea thanks, I'll try that. Right now I just took apart a bunch of track and started to paint that pink foam a light brown. Man, I'm so sick of that pink - the whole layout looks better already.


The FIRST thing I've done BEFORE laying any track is to paint the pink "grass green"! Two heavy coats with a sponge roller. Then, when it's time to add ground cover I brush on some more green paint and sprinkle the cover on top while the paint is wet. Works like a charm.
Bob


----------



## xrunner

raleets said:


> The FIRST thing I've done BEFORE laying any track is to paint the pink "grass green"! ...


Hi Raleets,

At the time I was playing with track, right after I built the table, I didn't feel I had enough information to do anything at all to the foam. I was more interested in learning the ins and outs of Kato track and other things. The track slides much more easily without paint on top, so it was perfect for me that way to play with track.

Since then I've watched quite a few videos and I decided to use brown as a base color based on what I saw other modelers doing. It depends on what you want to see on the ground right? Could be grass, could be plain dirt, could be a mixture of ground patches and grass or dead grass, in both cases you would not see green ground all over by default right? So in my mind the baseline color of the ground should be brownish color.

A few changes to the yard and other minor items -


----------



## Gansett

I've got a quart of interior latex I call "moung". It was a "Ooops, doesn't match" medium brown selling for $2.50 @ Lowe's. I had them throw in a couple of shots of green tint. Perfect. Matches RI perfectly and if you've ever driven through RI you know what I mean.


----------



## Massey

I have driven through the US down I40 several times then north up I5 from CA to WA and it is amazing how the colors of the country change every couple hundred miles. In VA through TN the ground is a brownish grey then about 1/2 way through TN you can see how the coal influences the soil and it turns really dark almost black. Forward again through AR and into OK and TX and it goes from dark to red to brown and when you get into NM and CA the ground is pink, white and orange stripes! Middle CA is mainly grey city up I5 but when you get into the mountains in north CA the ground is grey/ brown just like in VA and NC. Oregon and WA are pretty much the same dark brown to light grey as there is alot of clay from the glaciers and volcanos that used to be very dominate in that reigon many moons ago. 

Massey


----------



## Gansett

What? No moung?
Flying to FLA you always know you're getting close by seeing the red clay of Georgia.


----------



## Massey

yea FL and GA are nice and read especally near the gulf coast.

Massey


----------



## raleets

Well, OK, guys. Here's the skinny. I'm about 75% color blind, so whatever you tell me it is I'll more than likely believe you. Someone once said the grass was green, so I've been doin' green grass ever since. Duh?
Nobody ever told me the color of dirt, just that I was older than any of it! 
Anywho, the ground cover stuff sticks to wet paint no matter what color came out of the can. :thumbsup: :laugh:
Bob


----------



## NIMT

Phew...I'm glad you mentioned that piece of information Bob, I was worried when you called you car red when it's actually Pepto pink!:laugh:


----------



## shaygetz

xrunner said:


>


What...not even an outhouse named after me? I'm crushed...:thumbsup:

I like that busy yard look to the left:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

raleets said:


> Well, OK, guys. Here's the skinny. I'm about 75% color blind, so whatever you tell me it is I'll more than likely believe you. Someone once said the grass was green, so I've been doin' green grass ever since. Duh?
> Nobody ever told me the color of dirt, just that I was older than any of it!
> Anywho, the ground cover stuff sticks to wet paint no matter what color came out of the can. :thumbsup: :laugh:
> Bob



It would be strange to me if all of the sudden I was 75% color blind.
Were you born like that? If so it is normal to you huh?
When you say 75% do you see any color? Just certain colors? Or is your world is like a black and white TV?

It is good you mentioned this, if I ever view any of your work that is in color I will make sure I don't say anything bad about your colors.

Come too think of it I all ready did...about your yellow door.
Can you see yellow?


----------



## xrunner

raleets said:


> Someone once said the grass was green, so I've been doin' green grass ever since.


I bet you also think water is Blue too?

Just a joke, Big Ed can explain it all ...



shaygetz said:


> What...not even an outhouse named after me? I'm crushed...:thumbsup:


Look for it in the next minor update. 



> I like that busy yard look to the left:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Thank you. I think I've squeezed as much as I can out of that area. Wait a minute - there's always underground!


----------



## raleets

Being color blind has been a life-long adventure. Thankfully, I can tell the colors on a traffic signal! 
As long as it's the PURE color I'm okay, but when it's a shade I'm in trouble.
And, if you don't like green, gimme all your money!   
Bob


----------



## Gansett

Bob,
7% of males, 4% of women, either cannot distinguish red from green, or see red and green differently from most people. This is the commonest form of color blindness and I have it. Makes things real exciting driving in a strange city when a street light turns red and your passenger freaks out.

It also kept me from obtaining a commercial pilots license. On the other hand when I had a body shop I could match paint like nobody else. I can also look at a car and determine if a panel has been repainted even though it looks perfect to anyone not color blind. Very strange huh?
Jack


----------



## Big Ed

JackC said:


> Bob,
> 7% of males, 4% of women, either cannot distinguish red from green, or see red and green differently from most people. This is the commonest form of color blindness and I have it. Makes things real exciting driving in a strange city when a street light turns red and your passenger freaks out.
> 
> It also kept me from obtaining a commercial pilots license. On the other hand when I had a body shop I could match paint like nobody else. I can also look at a car and determine if a panel has been repainted even though it looks perfect to anyone not color blind. Very strange huh?
> Jack


In the future, they will make contact lenses to fix that for you guys.
Who knows...a bionic eye?


----------



## kursplat

JackC said:


> ...I can also look at a car and determine if a panel has been repainted even though it looks perfect to anyone not color blind. Very strange huh?
> Jack





big ed said:


> In the future, they will make contact lenses to fix that for you guys.
> Who knows...a bionic eye?


i want the bionic eye that will let me see the repainted body panels 

i wonder if just a pair of glasses with the right filtering could do the same thing ? but filters are good for removing, not adding...then of course, maybe you could make glasses that "correct" the red / green thing by adding a wave length electronically...

the layout is looking good, lots of options for switching or railfanning :thumbsup:


----------



## Gansett

Bionic eye? I don't need no stinking bionic eye. I've got enough metal parts in me now as it is.


----------



## Massey

I am slightly colorblind with shades of green. I can see green for the color it is but different shades look very similar to me. I was an autobody painter and needed help from time to time getting greens right (especally lighter greens or ones that had very little red or blue in them) Another painter had the same issue with reds which I was really good with... so hel would help me with the greens and I would help him with the reds. It all worked out.

Oh and I too can tell if a panel has been repainted or not just by looking. It is something most body painters can do easily.

Massey


----------



## Massey

Kersplat, Camera filters are really good at helping find painted panels. Different paint may be the same color to the naked eye but if it uses different pigments to get to that color a polarizing filter or a certain color filter will pick up on the difference in pigments. A blue filter will allow more red than green to pass through and if color "A" from company "A" used alot of green pigments to achieve say a blue color and Company "B" achieved the same exact color "A" but it's system used a Violet (which has alot of red in it) pigment to achieve the color the filter will show 2 totally different colors. Pure color blind people can also see this change in pigments.

Massey


----------



## NIMT

When I worked as a commercial electrician the owner of the company was color blind. We would cringe when he would say that he would give us a hand with the wiring, He could not tell the differance between Green Ground (Safe) and Brown 277 Volt (Deadly) I got hit once by his wonderful wiring skills!

Color blind...phooy...I go all out...I'm legally blind...I have been that way since I was 7 years old. If i wore glasses they would be over inch thick and I still can't see crap! Without any help I can focus about 1/2inch in front of my nose. Thank goodness for plastics, I have contacts that allow me to see 20/20. It's always so fun when I loose one especially while driving!


----------



## xrunner

Painted -


----------



## Xnats

That is nice having the computer right next to the yard can't wait to see some track going down.


----------



## raleets

Ya' know, there's a HUGE advantage to being sight challenged....."All The Girls Get Prettier At Closin' Time"......
Seriously, I had my left eye put out via an accident at a summer camp at age nine.....no fix possible, so I've gone thru life that way. I can certainly relate to folks with eye issues, like my wife, who has had six surgeries in the last couple of years to prevent blindness, and my Mom, who went blind two years before she left us.
I'm now getting cataracts in both eyes, so it won't be long before lens replacement.
Thank goodness I've been able to build most of the buildings and stuff on my layout that require decent eyesight prior to the "adjustment".
Being color blind is a mere inconvenience. :laugh:
Bob


----------



## raleets

xrunner said:


> Painted -


Now you're cookin' and it looks ready for some SERIOUS track laying and stuff!
Bob


----------



## xrunner

raleets said:


> Now you're cookin' and it looks ready for some SERIOUS track laying and stuff!
> Bob


In progress as we speak


----------



## NIMT

Looking good!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## JohnAP

*nice neat progress*

Xrunner,
Wonderful train area you havea there. Looks clean and neat enough for an operating room. I'm steadily working on my "empire" room, but it needs a LOT! LOL. Firstly being more room, followed closely by more light. I enjoy perusing you guys build threads. It gives me LOTS AND LOTS of ideas for when I get retired and:thumbsup: moved. Keep on posting!
:thumbsup:


----------



## Massey

John you still in Hampton Roads? If so check out the clubs over there, those guys know alot and are good people. I have been trying to get a few of them that I still talk to, to sign up on this site but none ever seem to.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

JohnAP said:


> Xrunner,
> Wonderful train area you havea there. Looks clean and neat enough for an operating room.


Thanks - Post pics when you can.

As HAL would say - "Everything is going extremely well"











Need to place one more order for track/turnouts tomorrow. After that the major expenses will be done. It's just a matter of enjoying the rest of the build which is more time than money. I look forward to it. Thanks to all who helped with the design!


----------



## Massey

Love the HAL picture

My computer's start up sound used to be HAL saying "I'm completely operational and everything is working perfectly" From the 2010 movie. The first time my X heard that she freaked out.

Massey


----------



## tjcruiser

Massey said:


> ... From the 2010 movie.


Uhhh ... that'd be 2001, right? 


I enjoyed the dialog re: optics and vision, above. Jack, Bob, Sean sorry to hear about your vision woes. I'm rather nearsighted, too ... about 5" of clear depth. Beyond that, the world's a blurr, if not for coke-bottle glasses and contacts. Interestingly, I find that when I'm doing small-scale, precision modeling work, I'll take the glasses/contacts off, and fiddle on the part-in-question about 4" from my face. For some reason, I see the detail better that way.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## xrunner

Ordered 4 more turnouts and a little more track to complete the design. Once it's off the computer screen and on the table it's easier to see how it really looks. I am tweaking the lengths of some track too.

I also decided on the Heljan Sanding Tower. I like the side walkways and I figure I can adjust the spacing of the tracks if needed.


----------



## raleets

tjcruiser said:


> Uhhh ... that'd be 2001, right?
> 
> 
> I enjoyed the dialog re: optics and vision, above. Jack, Bob, Sean sorry to hear about your vision woes. I'm rather nearsighted, too ... about 5" of clear depth. Beyond that, the world's a blurr, if not for coke-bottle glasses and contacts. Interestingly, I find that when I'm doing small-scale, precision modeling work, I'll take the glasses/contacts off, and fiddle on the part-in-question about 4" from my face. For some reason, I see the detail better that way.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ


TJ,
In today's world, it's sometimes a GREAT advantage to not be able to see or hear very well! :laugh:
Bob


----------



## Massey

TJ in 2010 after they power the Discovery back up and turn HAL on Dr, Chandra asks HAL how he is doing. His reply is "I'm completely operational and all my circuits are functioning perfectly". The way he says it is completely freaky and in the homicidal tone he had when he was telling Dave that he could not open the pod doors.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

The Atlas #2790 Turntable

Well something finally went well. I got some Kato conversion track pieces to attach small pieces of atlas track to, but after looking at them and the turntable insets, I found that by trimming the Kato parts a certain way with a dremel tool, they would fit into the turntable insets perfectly! Perfect height too. Plus the Atlas turntable needs no reversing, it automatically reverses the turntable tracks at the appropriate positions.

Su-weet!


----------



## tjcruiser

Massey said:


> TJ in 2010 ...


2001 A Space Odyssey, right? Or do you really mean 2010? Was there some sequel / redo that I'm not aware of???



TJ


----------



## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> 2001 A Space Odyssey, right? Or do you really mean 2010? Was there some sequel / redo that I'm not aware of???
> 
> 
> 
> TJ


I may not be an expert on model railroads yet but I am an expert on this movie - it's my favorite movie of all time. 

Yes there was a sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey called 2010 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_(film)


----------



## Massey

In 1984 there was a sequel which was based on the second book by Arthur C Clark. 2010: Odyssey 2. there are 2 more books, 2061 and 3001 and no planned movies for either. 

In 2010 you find out why HAL went homicidal in 2001. It also answers alot of the questions that 2001 did not answer in the movie.

Massey


----------



## tjcruiser

Massey,

Thanks! I had no idea there was a sequel. I'll have to check it out. (But I miss being able to rent movies from my local now-gone Blockbuster.) I remember the first time I saw 2001 ... I was in awe of the special effects ... way ahead of their time for movie technology way back then.

Again, thanks for the movie lesson!

TJ


----------



## xrunner

But, but, but ...

What about my turntable? :dunno:


----------



## tjcruiser

Sorry for the sidebar!  Here's an official redirect back to planet Earth and turntables! ...

TJ


----------



## sstlaure

xrunner - you're running DCC, correct? I've got that same turntable so I've been wondering what I'll need (if anything) to power it. (I've also got the powering kit for it.)


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> xrunner - you're running DCC, correct? I've got that same turntable so I've been wondering what I'll need (if anything) to power it. (I've also got the powering kit for it.)


You talking about the motor? Yea I got the motor, I was just running it yesterday. It says it takes 12V DC but I felt that it was about to take off with 12V so I tried an old 7.5V DC cordless phone brick and it ran fast enough without turning into a jet engine. A little noisy but I plan on stuffing the little building with some padding to knock that noise down.

One could also run it off a stationary decoder and then you could run it with your DCC system. I might do that eventually.

If you mean the wiring to the tracks, it automatically reverses the turntable rails at the right place, so as long as the outside rails are wired correctly (a diagram is included) then it should work OK, but I haven't got to that point yet.


----------



## sstlaure

Good deal. I current run the turntable with my DC controller so I can just dial the speed in. Full 12V does make it sound like it's going to come apart.


----------



## NIMT

OK my turn!!!! PLEEEEEESE 
You are using DCC so lets get out of the old DC realm her folks and kick this baby into over drive!:sly:
Use a Mobile Decoder and use the motor leads to power the table motor!
Gives you complete control over direction and speed of the table!
Program the table for minimum speed, maximum speed, and speed of braking!
Use the main head light outputs for a visual indication of direction of travel!
Also use the other function outputs for Lighting effects like a strobe on a pole, yard lighting!
You can really take it to the top and use a sound decoder, Sound can be sinked to the movement of the table!
If you want to take it to Hyper drive status you could install optical sensors to stop the table with the tracks perfectly aligned, all DCC controllable!
I would power your turn table tracks off of a AR-1 or a PM42 no matter how it's wired! This gives you short circuit protection and auto switching to eliminate any possible errors!
OK I'm done!
I give away any more of my secrets and I won't have anything on my layout that will be unique!


----------



## sstlaure

That's what I needed to know Sean. Thanks


----------



## NIMT

More than happy to help YOU out!:worshippy: :smilie_daumenpos:
I guess them Texans are a little harder to please!:sly:


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> OK my turn!!!! PLEEEEEESE
> You are using DCC so lets get out of the old DC realm her folks and kick this baby into over drive!:sly:
> Use a Mobile Decoder and use the motor leads to power the table motor!
> Gives you complete control over direction and speed of the table!
> Program the table for minimum speed, maximum speed, and speed of braking!
> Use the main head light outputs for a visual indication of direction of travel!
> Also use the other function outputs for Lighting effects like a strobe on a pole, yard lighting!
> You can really take it to the top and use a sound decoder, Sound can be sinked to the movement of the table!


Well now that the forum is back from wherever it went in the ether ... hwell:

Yes you are right, I should and will do that. What I think I will do is salvage the DCC decoder from that POS Bachmann I installed it into. I will turn it back to DC and give it to my nephew along with the leftover track from this project. Thanks!


----------



## NIMT

Just let me know if you have any issues setting the speed tables or any other issues!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Just let me know if you have any issues setting the speed tables or any other issues!


Will do, thanks.

One thing for sure, this turntable doesn't need a sound decoder -it makes plenty of good machine-like noises all by itself.


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Just let me know if you have any issues setting the speed tables or any other issues!


OK it works, I can obviously vary the speed with the throttle, but school me boss - what did you have in mind regarding speed tables in this application?


----------



## NIMT

Let's see if I can explain this without dragging everyone threw the mud!
This is a normal stock speed curve for an engine.
It's a liner curve that as you dial up the speed on the controller the voltage goes up at the same rate. 







This is a fast liner speed table that tops out in a few steps of the throttle and it's CV's, you can also lower the high Values to limit speed. 














This is a step speed table as to move the throttle the speed increases in steps, and it's CV's, you can also lower the high Values to limit speed. 














This is a stock set of Vstart Vmid Vhigh it's the opposite of the speed table and it's CV's 














This set of Vstart Vmid Vhigh will keep the speed of the table from going to fast. Speed tables are really a lot better way to program these!


----------



## xrunner

OK thanks. What I had done yesterday was to program Cv2 (start voltage) to output the voltage I wanted to run the table at - about 9 volts. Thus when I clicked one stop on the throttle, the table moves at the desired speed, and when I click one stop to off, it's off.

So what you are saying is that I should limit the upper speed of the table with the speed table, right?


----------



## Massey

When the decoder value is 255 you are going to give the motor the full voltage from the rails. At 127 (half of full) you are only giving the motor 1/2 of the supply voltage. (kinda but I dont want to confuse you) So what you need to do is play with the speed tables to give your self a fine tuning, normal movement and a top speed. You dont need to mess with the speed table for that you can achieve this with the Vlow/mid/hi settings. 

Massey


----------



## NIMT

Speed tables and Vlow/mid/hi settings are 2 differnt sets of ways to control the same things.
Vlow/mid/hi settings only gives you control low med and hig trottle settings
Speed tables gives you control over the whole throttle range, which in the turn table use is a bit of over kill.
You can set Vmid and Vhigh low to keep the table from running away.


----------



## xrunner

OK thanks I'll be playing with that in due time. Main thing is I will have the decoder wired into the table motor so I can be as DCCed-up as humanly possible.


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> So what you need to do is play with the speed tables to give your self a fine tuning, normal movement and a top speed.


Massey, I guess I just glossed over part of this, but the table doesn't need fine tuning. The table stops at exactly the right position at each stop and stays there for a few seconds even while the motor continues to run. It's the way the cam is designed inside.

So what should I do with the unused track positions, plug them up with some material so they aren't visible?

How about using one position as a "dummy" with a piece of track, but wire it to the programming output of the DCS100? I wouldn't drive an engine onto it but just place it there for programming.


----------



## Massey

you can set that track up with actual power and by using a DPDT center off toggle you can also use the same track for programing. One of the legs to my engine shop is set up that way. Here is the schematic










Massey


----------



## xrunner

Thanks Massey - that's a good idea.


----------



## xrunner

I'm looking at how to run the busses and track wiring now. I've been reading several websites regarding wiring the DCC signal. Going to use terminal blocks to distribute the signal from the bus to the track feeders. Does anyone want to comment on anything in particular that you may have found useful regarding track wiring?


----------



## NIMT

" Does anyone want to comment on anything in particular that you may have found useful regarding track wiring? "

Yes I do want to comment on something useful in track wiring!


DRINK HEAVY!


----------



## NIMT

Oh I'm sorry... I'm assuming you already drink...Well if you don't...



START!


----------



## 05Slowbalt

NIMT said:


> " Does anyone want to comment on anything in particular that you may have found useful regarding track wiring? "
> 
> Yes I do want to comment on something useful in track wiring!
> 
> 
> DRINK HEAVY!


You know I did that once and my layout didn't work when I applied power to it. Boy did that suck in the morning. A hangover and back tracking my wiring. Last time I drink with my friends while watching a Buffalo Sabres game and wiring.

And xrunner I'm very jealous your layout looks great so far.


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> DRINK HEAVY!


Oh Yea!



05Slowbalt said:


> And xrunner I'm very jealous your layout looks great so far.


Aw shucks. Well thanks. Had a lot of help in the design as you can see in the thread. The last batch of track is due tomorrow as well as a model I need to space some tracks properly. After that it's full speed ahead!


----------



## xrunner

Running the bus wires I'm realizing that, having 22 turnouts, I really need to get all the DS64's I'm going to need, and PR3, together on a single piece of wood under the layout and run the outputs to turnouts from a single location. Is there any problem with running the voltage outputs for the turnouts up to 10 feet from the DS64 units?

Once again thanks for all the help!


----------



## Massey

Nope it is done all the time!! I am planning on doing the same thing with mine when I invest in the switch motors and DS64s

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> Nope it is done all the time!! I am planning on doing the same thing with mine when I invest in the switch motors and DS64s
> 
> Massey


Thank you!


----------



## xrunner

What does everybody else use as hookup wire to turnouts? The Kato switches have small gauge (24?) red/black stranded wires which need to be extended, but I can't find anything I really like at Radio Shack, Home Depot, or Lowes. The closest thing I like is thermostat wire with red/white conductors inside a sheathing. The wire size of that is solid 18 AWG, which is way overkill.


----------



## JohnAP

*hookup wire*

Xrunner,

I bought mine at my local hobby shop. (Dale's Train Station) 3 conductor (green black and red) 24 awg stranded, "tinned for soldering ease". Package says "Packaged by :

Wire Works
Box 103, Durham, CT

15 Feet was around $6 including tax

Or you could order individual spools of 24 awg stranded wire from someplace like allspectrum electronics. That would be a lot cheaper.


----------



## Xnats

If I remember right, the Kato N turnouts are #26 awg. I used #22's on mine since that is what I had laying around. 
John that was a stiff price. If you have a local Electrical Supply house they will have it. All Electronics is pretty cheap for a online company but they are slow on shipping. Depending on how much you need.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-...e/Cable/Stranded-Hook-Up-Wire-100-Roll/1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-.../Wire/Cable/Miscellaneous-Hook-Up-Wire/1.html


----------



## JohnAP

*wallet bite*

Stan,

Ya know how it is when ya need something right now! Besides, the wire colors match the wire colors of my Atlas turnouts and they came on a spool all nicely twisted together!


----------



## xrunner

What I _really_ want is that red/black zip cord wire like the Kato turnouts have. I have some in a larger gauge in my wire box but not nearly enough. That wire came with radios I've purchased over the years, like a shortwave radio or scanner. It's for hooking them up to a DC power source. I know it's out there, but I just can't find it (yet).


----------



## Xnats

rofl, I do John :laugh: and having matching colors is the bonus :thumbsup: I've done the same all to much


----------



## Xnats

like this http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/WRB-24/24-AWG-RED/BLACK-AUTO-ZIP-CORD/1.html


----------



## JohnAP

*all spectrum*

Xrunner,
All spectrum electronics has 28awg stranded in black and red. $4.42 per 100 ft roll.


----------



## xrunner

BINGO!

That's what I want, great guys - thanks much! :thumbsup:


----------



## NIMT

Home depot carries speaker wire in a gray jacket with a zip cord in it!


----------



## xrunner

Well I ordered the wire from All Electronics today. Plus some other items. 

I also got several power supplies for my DS64 (5 total)/PR3 mounting board, LEDs, a panel mounted LED voltmeter, ...

Well let's put it this way - I got carried away and spent almost $100 including shipping.

Such is life right?


----------



## Xnats

lol Nice, they have a nice selection of stuff at good prices. Make sure you post pics when it comes


----------



## tjcruiser

NIMT said:


> Home depot carries speaker wire in a gray jacket with a zip cord in it!


Uhhh ...

What's a "zip chord" ? 

TJ


----------



## NIMT

Zip cord is a sting inside the jacket that makes it easy to remove (cut) the jacket off and expose the individual wires without damage to their insulation.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, Sean! I've seen those strings, but I didn't really know what they were for :retard:  !

TJ


----------



## xrunner

Modded the last 4 Kato turnouts today and now I have all the track in place. I also finished all the main bus wiring. I connected power using the Kato-supplied power connector, which isn't a very good way to connect power to a large layout (it has very small springy wires inside that simply touch the track underneath to transfer power).

Nevertheless, I was able to run an engine over most of the layout (parts are cut-off at the moment due to the double crossover not transferring power by design). 

Yay.

Next step is dropping all the extra power feeds throughout the layout and connecting them to the bus.

After that, I need to order 3 more DS64s, mount them and a PR3 and 2 power supplies on a board and mount it under the layout, and run all the turnout wiring. One PS will be for the Digitrax stuff and the other will be for all the LEDs and whatnot.

Seems to me Digitrax should make a stationary controller with a lot more outputs, like 16 or even 24 ... hwell:


----------



## xrunner

Coming along ...


----------



## NIMT

UHHH 
X 
There is a growth on that chair!
Better have it looked at!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> UHHH
> X
> There is a growth on that chair!
> Better have it looked at!


That's Taza my Siamese girl. She "helps" me at all times on the railroad.


----------



## Xnats

I'll give you an A on wiring :thumbsup: You're way neater then I was


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> I'll give you an A on wiring :thumbsup: You're way neater then I was


Thank you sir.

One thing I realized today is that some of the drops I need to wire up have to connect to track which will be on an incline. Therefore, I must pretty soon create the incline pieces from my 1" foam sheets before I can make those connections. I have to drill through the full length of the foam. Taza will be there to help me. :thumbsup:


----------



## Conductorjoe

Xnats said:


> I'll give you an A on wiring :thumbsup: You're way neater then I was


haha I wont even take pics of my wiring right now.

Yes it does look good :thumbsup:


----------



## plandis

tjcruiser said:


> Thanks, Sean! I've seen those strings, but I didn't really know what they were for :retard:  !
> 
> TJ


those strings also provide "tensile" strength for "pulling" that cord/cable not installed in conduit are subject to. that way the strands of conductor don't experience the full tension of being pulled.


----------



## xrunner

Hmmm ... I just realized I can't reverse a train going forward which is going counterclockwise around the outer main loop by going into the yard. It can only be reversed if it's going clockwise because it can go in and come out the same track. Did you guts notice that? It isn't a huge deal but is there any simple fix for that? I thought the wye was able to achieve reversing in both directions but for some reason it won't work in a counterclockwise direction here.








[/QUOTE]


----------



## NIMT

Two option come to mind.


----------



## xrunner

Yea I see what you're doing - perhaps. What would you say the purpose of a wye is? I was under the mistaken impression it would allow reversing, but I'm not sure how to explain it to myself now. All I can say to myself is - It's a cool thing that does - something ...


----------



## waltr

Pull onto the A/D track then back through the Wye to the right.
To reverse direction on a Wye one must back through the other leg.


----------



## xrunner

waltr said:


> Pull onto the A/D track then back through the Wye to the right.
> To reverse direction on a Wye one must back through the other leg.


Yea I did see how that would be possible. Do real trains do such a thing?


----------



## NIMT

Yep there are several Wye's up here and that's exactly what they do with those! That's a Wye's job is to reverse direction of a train!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Yep there are several Wye's up here and that's exactly what they do with those! That's a Wye's job is to reverse direction of a train!


Oh OK, I was confused then. I didn't realize backing up the train using the wye was in the cards. Everything is OK then.


----------



## xrunner

Received parts from All Electronics. All in good shape and very good shipping speed.


----------



## Massey

parts are good!

I love getting boxes of goodies, and even better when the goodies are free!!

Massey


----------



## xrunner

In order to get some of the drops done, I needed to get the 3% inclines installed. I was a lot harder to cut them accurately than I thought it would be. I got a hot wire tool from Hobby Lobby to try but it wasn't powerful enough (wouldn't stay hot due to the heat sinking of the foam). 

Hot Wire Cutter

I resorted to cutting the long pieces with a small hacksaw, then cutting them into smaller pieces for the corners. I needed 2 pieces to make it wide enough and no two pieces ever came out exactly the same, so I had to sand, sand, sand outside. What a mess!


----------



## Conductorjoe

I use the Woodland Scenics Foam Cutter. Had it for years and works great. Not sure of price these days but it cuts clean with absolutely no mess.


----------



## Xnats

Your a better man then me, Xrunner. I tried what you did and just broke down and ordered the WS risers. With those I was done in 5 seconds. Yours look good, I know what you went through


----------



## xrunner

I got to do 4 more slices today, but not as long. I would use a thin Japanese-style saw I have but I'm afraid cutting that foam will ruin the blade. I know what it does to utility knife blades.

This is by far the hardest thing I've had to do on this project.


----------



## xrunner

Got all the inclines cut (whew!). Playing around with tunnel placement. Had to move the inclines back clockwise on the inner loop due to some derailing at a higher test speed. Going counterclockwise, the switch was too close to the end of the incline while the train was still going in a curve + downhill. Even though it was at a higher speed that I probably won't use, I didn't want any derailing. Test, test, test your layout before gluing anything down. The trains have no trouble whatsoever with a 3% incline.

But, that gave me an opportunity to add a bridge using some Atlas track. Using it with Kato wasn't hard at all. The track size and tie spacing match perfectly. I will have to build the rest of the bridge later.

All in all, should be an interesting looking landscape (at some point in the future). Now back to wiring.


----------



## Massey

Looks good!! Must feel nice to be able to run a train or two even if the layout is not finished yet. I know if felt good the first time I was able to put a train on the tracks on my layout.

Massey


----------



## xrunner

Massey said:


> Looks good!! Must feel nice to be able to run a train or two even if the layout is not finished yet. I know if felt good the first time I was able to put a train on the tracks on my layout.


Thanks. I was dreading cutting those inclines but now I've got that behind me. :thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Made some bridge abutments out of foam and covered them with some texture I printed out, obtained from here -

http://www.cgtextures.com/

It's so easy to make something that looks good this way, I feel as if I'm cheating. 

Need to build the actual bridge, but I must get back to that wiring.


----------



## Xnats

The abutments did come out nice. I would have never guessed if you did not say anything.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Great tip, I saved that site.


----------



## Gansett

Nice, plus I really like the added graffiti touch! :thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

'Runner,

Nice abutments, but looks like you're gonna have to repaint the face. Some degenerate came along in the middle of the night and tagged the thing with graffiti ... 

(Looks great!)

TJ


----------



## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> 'Runner,
> 
> Nice abutments,


Thanks.


> but looks like you're gonna have to repaint the face. Some degenerate came along in the middle of the night and tagged the thing with graffiti ...


It was Ed. Wait till I make the pond - he'll dump a bottle of blue food coloring in it.


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> It was Ed. Wait till I make the pond - he'll dump a bottle of blue food coloring in it.


I don't like graffiti. Everywhere I go I see it.:thumbsdown:

I must say that I have seen some amazing work in my travels. Whoever did it should put their talents to use and make some bucks off it.

But most is just garbage and just an eyesore!:thumbsdown:

Black food coloring would be much better in the pond.


----------



## xrunner




----------



## xrunner

Not wanting to pay full price for Photoshop ($600+) and reading horrible reviews of Paint Shop Pro, I sucked it up and began learning the free program called Gimp yesterday. After 4 -5 painful hours (and I do mean painful) I finally began to understand it. I wanted to be able to apply graffiti to other textures I wanted to use for buildings and bridges. 

An example is shown below. I merged an example graffiti onto another texture, and then used a smudge tool to simulate the paint running. I want to use this technique for my little bridge. Not bad for only a couple days of playing, expect better results as time goes on.


----------



## Prospect193

Now all you need to learn is Alpha Channels and your in business!!!!

Pat


----------



## Xnats

Gimp is pretty fun to use, you'll be love'n it after a few more uses.


----------



## NIMT

Don't belive the bad hype to Paint Shop Pro.
I've used it for years and I've never had an issue with it!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The great thing about PSP is there was a free version that turned up some time back after Corel Graphics acquired it, and I've kept that one around and install it on every system.  I had used it for years before that, but having a free one allowed me to install it everywhere


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Don't belive the bad hype to Paint Shop Pro.
> I've used it for years and I've never had an issue with it!


Well I'll have to find the site I was reading but at least 90% of the reviews were absolutely trashing it. One after the other, crashing-crashing-crashing, too many features, confusing, unorganized, ... It scared me off. Anyway I have gotten over the learning curve for Gimp (and it's free) so all is well.


----------



## Prospect193

if you need help i have Photoshop CS5, i can help you out with what you need to do!!!

Pat


----------



## xrunner

Prospect193 said:


> if you need help i have Photoshop CS5, i can help you out with what you need to do!!!
> 
> Pat


Oh thanks (is that program really $600+?)

I think I will be OK if I practice more with Gimp.


----------



## xrunner

Another bridge -

One texture for the bridge abutment and another for the retaining wall. I added graffiti to the abutment, and the other one will look different because it will have different graffiti. I chose the abutment texture because there will be a river running right next to it. The concrete plate retaining wall will have many other textures added to it such as cracks, small plants, and leaks. I will post an example if anyone wants to see what can be done. Like I was telling another guy about printing concrete roads, you can add many effects to each part so it doesn't appear that it's the same pattern repeated. Decal images work very well for that purpose.


----------



## Conductorjoe

xrunner said:


> Made some bridge abutments out of foam and covered them with some texture I printed out, obtained from here -
> 
> http://www.cgtextures.com/
> 
> It's so easy to make something that looks good this way, I feel as if I'm cheating.
> 
> Need to build the actual bridge, but I must get back to that wiring.


That website asks to "join". Did you join? If so how big is the picture to a member? What did you print the graphics on?
They look good for something different and I am always looking for new ways to create scenery.


----------



## xrunner

Conductorjoe said:


> That website asks to "join". Did you join?


Yes I did. It's free.



> If so how big is the picture to a member?


Depends. Most I get are 1024 x 700 or other similar sizes. They also have a premium membership with bigger sizes, but for N scale the small sizes are plenty big enough. Some images are able to be tiled too. Many images have 2 or 3 other shots you can see if you join.



> What did you print the graphics on?


Matte photo paper. I then spray it with Krylon matte finish to seal it.



> They look good for something different and I am always looking for new ways to create scenery.


I'm using this technique more and more for all types of things. You can achieve some fantastic looks without painting. I don't even know how you could do some of the things I'm going to do by painting. I'm using a free program called Gimp for Windoze, and I start with the background off that site and apply other pics with transparent backgrounds to build up what I want, by adding plants, grafitti, rust, grime, and whatever else I can find. I'll post an example later.


----------



## Conductorjoe

Thanks for the info !
With the prices of everything going up, Like said I am always looking for new scenery techniques that are easy to do and cut costs. Simple scenery products have got out of control price wise like everything else. If I can save $$ on scenery I can spend the extra on other things like nice rolling stock and Locos.
Ill give this a try once I get to scenery which will be fairly soon.


----------



## Xnats

xrunner said:


> Some images are able to be tiled too.


This is mostly for siding, roofing, roads, ect and ect. I picture needs to be doctored up so all sides being tiled are the same. Take a road for example only 2 sides need to be the same, so when it is repeated, no seam shows. 
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/340/6/e/seamless_road_texture_by_hhh316-d4idn9u.jpg

A roof as example two needs all four sides the same. Look how the top would butt up to the bottom :thumbsup: Then look how the left side would butt up to the right side :thumbsup:
http://www.we-r-here.com/cad_07/tutorials/level_3/images/grey_roof_slate.jpg

This can be done in Gimp, it is really a great free software.
To save time you can just Yahoo "Free 3D textures" or more precise search "Free 3D roof texture" Most of the ones you'll find are ready to go.

This is an example of a pic that won't look right tiled.
http://storage3d.com/storage/2006.12/48f42a1b509633cd3bdb94b38b11715f.jpg


----------



## xrunner

Example:

These concrete panels will be used where one of my bridges is. I haven't settled on the final look yet, but you can see the power of this method. Maybe some expert could paint these, but it would not be easy to do, and I sure couldn't do it. But with this method it's a piece of cake. If you browse that CG Textures site, you will be like a kid in a candy store thinking of what you could do with all those textures.

Before anything is added -










After other images are added on a transparent layer for realism -


----------



## Xnats

You sure got the hang of Gimp quick :laugh: Looks fantastic :thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> You sure got the hang of Gimp quick :laugh: Looks fantastic :thumbsup:


Thanks man.

I don't know about quick. I forced myself to learn the parts of it I needed over the span of 3 days, spending many hours and much cussing, and looking at tutorials, until I finally understood the concept of the program and layers.

After that it came a lot faster, but I am nowhere near an exspurt on Gimp.


----------



## tjcruiser

'Runner,

You're cracking up. Literally. On the concrete, I mean. Looks cool!

TJ


----------



## xrunner

Another experiment in textures. The center stripe was made by simply printing out the wood pattern and feeding the sheet back into the printer again, and printing the stripes over the wood pattern. I'm on hold unitl I figure out how to glue these pieces down.


----------



## kursplat

came out great. did you weather it after or was the weathering part of the original art work?


----------



## xrunner

kursplat said:


> came out great. did you weather it after or was the weathering part of the original art work?


Thanks. The weathering was part of the original. The wood looks weathered more than the photo shows. I might end up using a spray adhesive to attach the printouts. Stay tuned.


----------



## Conductorjoe

The new texture project looks great !! :thumbsup:


----------



## Gansett

X,
I used to use a spray adhesive when mounting photos. Think it was a 3m product.
It was, looks like 3m spraymount /sprayment would do the job for you.

http://www.reuels.com/reuels/3M_Spraymount_Adhesive.html

http://www.reuels.com/reuels/3M_Sprayment_Adhesive.html


----------



## xrunner

JackC said:


> X,
> I used to use a spray adhesive when mounting photos. Think it was a 3m product.


Thanks Jack. I got a small can of Elmers Craft Bond spray adhesive, it worked very well.

Here's the end result. I may add some weathering powders later. Sure looks better than that bland brown plastic.


----------



## brik-el

Wow Xrunner, all your homemade creations are amazing.

You've totally inspired me to rip-off your ideas.

I can not wait to see your finished layout, and the progress leading up to it.


----------



## xrunner

brik-el said:


> Wow Xrunner, all your homemade creations are amazing.


Thanks for the kind words.



> You've totally inspired me to rip-off your ideas.


I'm not nearly as skilled as some others here such as Shaygetz and the crowd. That's why I like this computer+printer method, it's relatively easy yet very powerful. If you can't paint well this is the way to go.

I experimented with some black weathering powder on a duplicate printout. It looks pretty good so I will apply some near the tracks where it would be dirtier, on the finished product. I have to practice more, because once I put it on that paper, it ain't coming off, and that paper isn't coming off that table without a jackhammer now.

(yes, I could have done it before gluing it, but I got all excited, it happens )


----------



## tjcruiser

'Runner,

That "decking" is simply a photo-print?!? Wow ... looks fabulous! Really fabulous!

Looks like the masses are gonna be stealing that idea out from under your feet!

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> That "decking" is simply a photo-print?!?


Yes.



> Wow ... looks fabulous! Really fabulous!


Thanks.

It's a texture from cgtextures.com linked below, resized/tiled multiple times vertically and horizontally. Then certain parts were flipped vert. and horz. to avoid a repeating pattern.

http://www.cgtextures.com/login.php...id=39499&PHPSESSID=6btkq6vobtbio41nqbc6aqfb54

The center stripe is linked below, first cropped, then stretched/resized for N scale and then tiled vertically one time back-to-back (2 images added into one). It was then printed out on top of a tiled printout of the wood planks (easy way to overlay images).

http://www.cgtextures.com/login.php...id=43201&PHPSESSID=6btkq6vobtbio41nqbc6aqfb54

I'd like to see others try this on a turntable with other textures such as possibly concrete.


----------



## kursplat

tjcruiser said:


> 'Runner,
> 
> That "decking" is simply a photo-print?!? Wow ... looks fabulous! Really fabulous!


really does... my wife want's to redo the kitchen / dining room floors and i'm leaning toward wood...
this looks like it could save us some $$... a thick coat of varnish over the top and voila! :thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Check out the article _Photo Laminated Structures_ in Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine, it might help anyone that wants to try this technique -

Photo Laminated Structures


----------



## Conductorjoe

Thanks for the article. Now that I read that I am a little hesitant. The 2nd section talks about drawbacks. First one being ink fading over time , 2nd is making sure no wet glue gets on them.
Fading after 5 years for me would not be good with the project I have going. Im gonna have to rethink that method. I guess you could just "redo" whatever fades , Cuz layout is never finished .

Sure does look awesome though !!!


----------



## xrunner

Conductorjoe said:


> First one being ink fading over time ,


We call that "weathering" . One man's fading is another man's weathering, so to speak.

I'm not concerned about it because I'm sealing it with Krylon Matte Spray.


----------



## xrunner

Ugh.

My loco is flashing again while turning the table. It appears to be one of the cylinders that got some glue on it. I tried cleaning it from above but it didn't completely fix it. Now I have the thing torn apart and I'm cleaning the little cylinders. I'm also taking the opportunity to polish the top and bottom of the little buggers, and the underneath part of the track, with Simichrome polish.

This will not be a problem again.


----------



## Conductorjoe

xrunner said:


> I'm not concerned about it because I'm sealing it with Krylon Matte Spray.


 After reading that article again I was thinking same thing. The matte should seal it enough. I guess worse case is 5 years from now it can just be replaced. 
I think I will still try this method when I get to that point. I think it looks so good its worth it. Im going to need alot of retaining walls and this seems like a great alternative to basic scenery items.


----------



## Big Ed

Are you going to build a turntable bridge for it?


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> Are you going to build a turntable bridge for it?


Perhaps Ed, for looks. Do you know of a good design I can use for the bridge model?

I also started to integrate my inspection pit today, the model I made a few months ago. I ran the wires for the LEDs and lit her up. If you want to build an inspec. pit it's a free model located here - http://www.scalescenes.com/products/R002c


----------



## Big Ed

Only from pictures I see.

How about just some sort of guard rail with a cat walk along side?
Something like this, without the beam on the bottom?


It might even look good with the beam.









How about an real old one?
Notice what makes it turn.


----------



## xrunner

Yea, that looks good, with the guard rails. I shall incorporate that as well. I shifted to my inspection pit as I want to get it installed, but I will want to add your suggestion to the TT.

After I polished and cleaned the TT "cylinders" I have had no more issues with power to the Loco on the TT.


----------



## NIMT

Hey If your LED"s for the inspection pit are too bright set them up on a Decoder and you'll be able to dim them.
They look really bright in the pic's but I might just be the camera.


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Hey If your LED"s for the inspection pit are too bright set them up on a Decoder and you'll be able to dim them.
> They look really bright in the pic's but I might just be the camera.


Oh dear - don't you want my Chinese little painted people to see what they are inspecting under the pit? :dunno:

But truthfully - it isn't as bright as the pic shows, just like the loco headlight - it's a camera thing.


----------



## xrunner

Finished the installation of the pit. Added fascia around it and additional grease stain weathering also. More will be added around it at a later date, when I get to the major scenery. Also today I started feeding the wires from each turnout through the tabletop. They will all go to a panel where all sorts of electronic goodies will be mounted. But, that is still to come.


----------



## Carl

Nice to see the progress


----------



## NIMT

Looking great!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Oh and I'm so stealing your inspection pit design!


----------



## kursplat

the pit looks great but you need to add a small camera at the bottom so we can inspect the engines


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Looking great!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
> Oh and I'm so stealing your inspection pit design!


You realize it's not my design right? I got it here for free -

http://www.scalescenes.com/products/R002c

But I did modify it somewhat.


----------



## xrunner

Starting to lay out the electronics board -


----------



## Conductorjoe

Like the way the pit turned out. Looks great :thumbsup:


----------



## Carl

Nice work on the electrical


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> Nice work on the electrical


Thanks Carl!

I got it lit up today, will post a pic tomorrow. I bought two supplies, 12 and 24 volt, from All Electronics - 12V for the Digitrax and the 24V for LED strings. They're medical grade open frame but they were dirt cheap so it was a no-brainer. I will build a cage over them for safety purposes. It should look pretty cool.


----------



## NIMT

24 volt for the LED's and people think I'm crazy for using a 28 Volt power supply for my DCC!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> 24 volt for the LED's and people think I'm crazy for using a 28 Volt power supply for my DCC!


Remain calm ...

It's going into several Supertex CL2 constant current sources (can take up to 90V each). No worries and no resistors.


----------



## xrunner




----------



## gunrunnerjohn

xrunner said:


> Remain calm ...
> 
> It's going into several Supertex CL2 constant current sources (can take up to 90V each). No worries and no resistors.


Take note of the power dissipation of the CL2, if you have a very high voltage input, they may overheat. You're probably OK, but a 22 volt drop across the CL2 at 20ma is .44 watts. That little package will get pretty warm, you might want to consider a TO-92 heatsink to help with the issue.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Take note of the power dissipation of the CL2, if you have a very high voltage input, they may overheat. You're probably OK, but a 22 volt drop across the CL2 at 20ma is .44 watts. That little package will get pretty warm, you might want to consider a TO-92 heatsink to help with the issue.


Good points - but the drop won't be that large if I have multiple LEDs on the output correct? The more LEDs the more votage is dropped across them and less across the Cl2. Eventually all the voltage will be dropped across all the LEDS, and then I just create another CL2 output and start a new string.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

If you have multiple LED's in series, you are correct, the drop is obviously less. Figure about 1.5V for red/yellow/green at a rule, and 3v for white/blue ones.

You do need a few volts headroom for the CL2 to function, so you don't want to have all the voltage dropped across the CL2.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you have multiple LED's in series, you are correct, the drop is obviously less. Figure about 1.5V for red/yellow/green at a rule, and 3v for white/blue ones.
> 
> You do need a few volts headroom for the CL2 to function, so you don't want to have all the voltage dropped across the CL2.


Good, that's what my understanding was. Thanks for checking my sanity.


----------



## kursplat

xrunner said:


> Good, that's what my understanding was. Thanks for checking my sanity.


sanity checks on a model RR forum 
is that really such a good idea?

:laugh:

is all the lighting off these for buildings and the pit or are you going to run signals from these too ?


----------



## xrunner

kursplat said:


> sanity checks on a model RR forum
> is that really such a good idea?
> 
> :laugh:


Only while drinking heavily. 



> is all the lighting off these for buildings and the pit or are you going to run signals from these too ?


It's for lighting, I plan on having lots and lots of lighting. Signals will have to wait for the future, unless you mean non-operating static signals with red or green LEDs, yes I will have those.


----------



## kursplat

xrunner said:


> It's for lighting, I plan on having lots and lots of lighting. Signals will have to wait for the future, unless you mean non-operating static signals with red or green LEDs, yes I will have those.


sweet


----------



## Carl

Dang........you can always run lighting off a single line using one of the 9 volt wall plug-in transformers.


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> Dang........you can always run lighting off a single line using one of the 9 volt wall plug-in transformers.


Sure Carl, but that wouldn't require as much work and would be simpler.


----------



## brik-el

Update?


----------



## xrunner

brik-el said:


> Update?


Tomorrow ...


----------



## xrunner

Got the electronics board mounted. Next I need to start running all the wires from turnouts - 20 in all.


----------



## NIMT

I would have to say I think your doing it exactly right!
Your electronics are stating to resemble an instrument panel from Star Trek!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> I would have to say I think your doing it exactly right!
> Your electronics are stating to resemble an instrument panel from Star Trek!:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Thanks. Have I shown you where I will operate the trains yet?


----------



## Big Ed

Looking good.:thumbsup:

But do I see a potential problem?

All your lights are green except on the one thingamajig.
It is red?


----------



## Xnats

Wow X you are going all out, I love your workmanship :thumbsup: Nice to see pride in work. Then again [email protected]#t that was a lot a mulla, updates are slow coming because of overtime to buy all the parts  Rear deflectors appear to be low, better get Scottie on it :laugh:


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> Looking good.:thumbsup:


Thank you.



> But do I see a potential problem?






> All your lights are green except on the one thingamajig.
> It is red?


That item is a PR3 and that red light is what it shows when it isn't connected to the loconet. Those connections are yet to be made.


----------



## Blade3562

Actually I have to give my input about psp it is by far the most technical program on the market, but it by far yields the best results. I've used it since windows 95.


----------



## Carl

Looks damn good


----------



## xrunner

Blade3562 said:


> Actually I have to give my input about psp it is by far the most technical program on the market, but it by far yields the best results. I've used it since windows 95.


I'm sorry, but I don't understand your post.

PSP?


----------



## xrunner

Made some Loconet cables to run between my DS64s/PR3 and had some problems with communication between devices. Turns out my crimper tool wasn't pushing the contacts of the connectors far enough. I inserted some shims into it to help and got all the cables working. Need to buy a new tool though. So now all my Digitrax boxes are talking. Got 2 turnouts wired into DS64s and they work also via the DT402. Yay.


----------



## xrunner

Update -

Got all 22 turnouts wired up. All major wiring is now done. Programmed in a few routes into the DS64s and they work well. If you haven't tried to use routes you should give it a try - it's pretty cool having all those turnouts switch automatically!

What's next? Stay tuned ...


----------



## brik-el

xrunner said:


> What's next? Stay tuned ...


Hopefully something delicious!


----------



## Blade3562

I was talking about paint shop pro with the digital and graphiti designs lol. Super delayed.


----------



## xrunner

Electronics board with all switches wired up -










RR Yard full -


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Nice progress, looks like it'll be a fun layout!


----------



## brik-el

Love it!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Video?


----------



## powersteamguy1790

xrunner:

You've done a very nice job on your layout. I did read the entire thread. I enjoyed viewing the photo's of your electronic setup.:thumbsup:

Have fun running trains on your new layout. You will have fun developing and working on the scenery.


----------



## JohnAP

Super job Xrunner! Love how neatly everything is wired up. Looking forward to more progress pics and maybe a video or two!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Many thanks for the comments!

I'm going to work on some signal ideas for a while, for a change. 

I need to paint these 2 aspect signals aluminum (except for the shield around the LEDs.

I got this signal bridge as a bonus in another kit. It doesn't have LEDs but has little bumps that are painted red and green. I plan on drilling out the "bumps" and installing small LEDs. It will be directly over the double crossover. Since there is no simple logic to dictate what color to display, the LEDs in this case won't follow any train logic they will just be for looks.










I found these little jewels on the WeHonest store (LOL - that name kills me) on Ebay (where I got my little painted people). They are fairly versatile little devices. They come 5 boards and 5 sets of IR xmitter/receivers to a pack for $55. I also ordered 5 G/Y/R signals for $20. You install the IR devices under the track and they point up through holes, the IR is reflected from the train above and signals that a train is occupying the block and then cycles the 3 LEDs in the signal. Should add some interest to the setup.










http://www.ebay.com/itm/150757223236?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648


----------



## xrunner

Need some opinions please.

See the signal bridge in the pic? I drilled out the little bumps that were painted red and green and can now put in place LEDs. What I want is your opinions as to how to use them. The way it was it has a red and green painted bump on each side. It now has four little holes ...

Here's some options I could do -

A. Have all four LEDs red, or all four green, lit all the time
B. Have one each red and green on each side, lit all the time
C. Use a flasher circuit to flash alternately either two red, two green, or a red and a green on each side.
D. Some other idea of yours

I don't think I can make it correlate to any real train activity where I want to place it, which is directly over a Kato double crossover, because the logical possibilities are too numerous. But I do want something that catches the eye and yet isn't too "unrealistic".

I will consider all ideas, thanks.


----------



## shaygetz

Use two color LEDs...

LEDs are polarity sensitive, that is, they light only when they receive their power in the proper direction. They have a positive and a negative pole, usually denoted with the positive side having a longer pole or wire. Two color LEDs use this to advantage with the addition of colored elements. By switching the direction of the current, the correct color for that direction is displayed.

By applying power to either end of the series with a standard power pack, the series lights up with alternating colors. By switching the direction switch on the power pack, the current flow is reversed, again producing the desired result, an alternate light pattern. 



















This is from a project I did years ago, the targets have long since been painted black...


----------



## xrunner

shaygetz said:


> Use two color LEDs...
> By applying power to either end of the series with a standard power pack, the series lights up with alternating colors. By switching the direction switch on the power pack, the current flow is reversed, again producing the desired result, an alternate light pattern.


Yes that is a very nice look, thanks for the response. I don't have any bi-color LEDs right now that are small enough. But if I put a red and green on both sides it would at least be a static look like you have there. That's a very nice alternative.


----------



## NIMT

Do you want micro BI or Tri color LED's?
I can hook you up!
These are 0603 LED's and they are .83mm wide.
The wire is .10mm about the size of a hair.
I have colored 0603's and 0402's on there way to me!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Do you want micro BI or Tri color LED's?
> I can hook you up!
> These are 0603 LED's and they are .83mm wide.
> The wire is .10mm about the size of a hair.
> I have colored 0603's and 0402's on there way to me!


Well that's very kind of you. So these little jewels are bi-color and tri-color? The tri's have more than two leads I take it?

Yea how many are you getting? I could just send you cash in the mail for a few. Let me know, I don't want more than you want to spare.


----------



## NIMT

These are only single color but they are small enough to put two or three side by side.
I am getting some bi and tri colored LED's but I think they are going to be bigger?
If your not in a super big hurry I show you those when the show up!


----------



## Xnats

Digi-Key has 0400 and 0600 series of red/green. Their red/yellow/greens are all pretty big, 3.2mmx2.8mm. They are very quick at shipping to.


----------



## shaygetz

On the club layout, my towers are used at either end of several long passing sidings. They're set to change aspect when the switches are thrown, telling engineers whether the switches are set for them or not. After seeing them in action and how easy they were to make, I don't think a single phony one survived the month on individual club member layouts...:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

shaygetz said:


> On the club layout, my towers are used at either end of several long passing sidings. They're set to change aspect when the switches are thrown, telling engineers whether the switches are set for them or not.


What circuit or mechanism was used to reverse the voltage and change the color?


----------



## NIMT

Xrunner, On your set up your going to want to get a Digitrax SE8C Signal Decoder, that will make short order of setting up signals.


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Xrunner, On your set up your going to want to get a Digitrax SE8C Signal Decoder, that will make short order of setting up signals.


I may at some point but I can do a lot with the 5 signal boards coming from the China dudes. I plan on driving more than one set of signal LEDs with some of them due to the way I can use them on my tracks, all I have to do is recalculate the resistor value. So the 5 will amount to controlling more than 5 signal heads. I an working on a diagram to help me in the placement I may post it later.


----------



## shaygetz

xrunner said:


> What circuit or mechanism was used to reverse the voltage and change the color?


The Club uses Tortoise switch machines that have contacts that can reverse the polarity of a circuit to operate accessories. The signals are wired to those, when the switch is thrown, the polarity reverses, changing the signal color. It is essentially a DPDT switch built into the switch motor.


----------



## NIMT

I use Tortoise switch machines to do my signaling and my frog powering too.
There are some advantages to paying a little more for the right switch machines.


----------



## xrunner

Got the signal boards and 3-color signals today. They seem to work OK. When the IR beam is blocked the signal cycle starts. I'll have to make a bunch of little scale signal control boxes to mount the IR devices in above the tracks so the train can block the beam. 

Also they included 1k resistors which, with the voltage the circuit supplies to the LED, allows only about 1.3mA. I calculated it and measured it since I thought wow that's a tiny current. The LEDs seem to glow OK, but the yellow is a bit weak. I think I'll change the resistors out for smaller values though unless somebody knows of some reason they did that.


----------



## Carl

Nice box of stuff.....good luck


----------



## waltr

1k Ohm current limiter makes the LEDs safe with higher voltages.

1.3mA through a 1k Ohm resistor will drop 1.3V across the resistor. Red & Green LEDs typically drop about 1.4V. So is your power supply 2.7V? If not how did you measure the current? by measuring the voltage drop across the resistor?

Adjusting the resistor limiter value is common to get several different types and/or colors of LEDs to match in brightness.


----------



## xrunner

waltr said:


> So is your power supply 2.7V? If not how did you measure the current? by measuring the voltage drop across the resistor?


Both ways. I calculated the current by measuring the voltage drop on the resistor and it seemed so low I had to measure the current with my DMM and it was 1.3 mA. The circuit instructions say the board can take a DC input up to 16V, and that's what I used at first. The voltage output to the LED/resistor circuit is only about 5V. I then used a 12V DC supply and it was still 5V to the LED.

The LEDs look OK even at this low current, but I swapped out their 1k R to a 560 ohm just to see if the brightness would increase and it looked the same, which again is OK I just didn't realize LEDs would be very bright at such a low current. Anyway all is well.


----------



## gc53dfgc

That's why LED's are great, they don't use a lot of power or current. You know it works if they are mounted in the track to right? This just means you need aerial lighting which most train layouts have anyways.


----------



## xrunner

gc53dfgc said:


> You know it works if they are mounted in the track to right?


I don't understand your question, please elaborate.


----------



## gc53dfgc

IR senors work off of light or a lack there of, so you can mount them under the track in between the ties so you don't need a box for every single signal so it can be less crowded and similar to how real railroads have them set up.

Your layouts not to big and I don't know how many signals you plan to install but a box for each sensor is going to require a good bit of space.


----------



## xrunner

gc53dfgc said:


> This just means you need aerial lighting which most train layouts have anyways.
> ...
> IR senors work off of light or a lack there of, so you can mount them under the track in between the ties so you don't need a box for every single signal so it can be less crowded and similar to how real railroads have them set up.


The sensors that came with these setups respond to IR only - not visible(aerial/ambient), so they need the IR beam to trigger. I have an experimental setup on my project table to figure out the best arrangement for the IR TX/RX. So far the arrangement you see in the pic works pretty well.










I could drill through the track/foam/table and try to run two LED (TX & RX) and get them to line up right, but ugh, that would be painful. I've been looking at RR signal box pics and I think the way I'd like to go is to make small boxes to house the IR TX/RX LEDs. If I ballast out to the box and then make a small box like the one in the pic below it will be pretty realistic size-wise and will sit at the right height for the beam to reflect off the cars. You can see that one in the pic is taller than a man. The number of signal boxes I'd need if I put both LEDs in the box is 8 - 10, which is not a big deal to me to build and will take very little space on the layout, and will also serve to model signal boxes that appear along the railroad anyway.


----------



## gc53dfgc

If it works that's fine. The way I mentioned is really only best if you just have the track and cork down on the base otherwise you mess up things. I also did not know that your system is a send receive type. Up here in Ohio anyways you don't see to many line side boxes anymore since it has all moved underground.


----------



## JohnAP

I purchased the Quickar easydetect © Deluxe phototransistor units to trigger my RR crossing flasher circuits. haven't had a chance to assemble and test it yet.

http://www.quickar.com/easydetect.pdf


----------



## xrunner

JohnAP said:


> I purchased the Quickar easydetect © Deluxe phototransistor units to trigger my RR crossing flasher circuits. haven't had a chance to assemble and test it yet.


Yea there sure are a lot of kits out there. Thanks for the link I'll browse their products and see what they have. They sure know how to write a good assembly manual!

That type of kit of course senses overhead lights so as they say unless you have enough light and/or mount a lamp post it won't work. Seems like you would have to have the exact same lighting conditions also after you adjust the trimmer, and I don't want to be dependent on having the same lights/lamps on every time I run the trains. I plan on running mine in low light situations quite a lot later on so I'd have to mount working lamp posts. Once the IR system is set it doesn't depend on the ambient lights. The kit I got came with some tiny reed switches and magnets also that you can use to trigger the board. I might do something with them at the turntable.

Thanks.


----------



## xrunner

gc53dfgc said:


> IR senors work off of light or a lack there of, so you can mount them under the track in between the ties ...


Well, after examining things further I'll have to do this. I didn't take into account the bending of the IR LED leads that would be required to make them fit into a small box. It's too much of a bend.

Looks like much fun lies ahead as I drill down through the table and try to get things lined up. Weeeeeeee!


----------



## xrunner

Signals -


----------



## NSHO

Super!!


----------



## xrunner

I'm going to use one of the magnetic reed relays that came with the signal control boards to control a signal at the turntable entrance. I will mount a small magnet at 2 places on the turntable 180 deg apart so when the turntable track lines up with the entrance track the signal will go green, otherwise it will be red. I got some 12V micro relays from All Electronics which I will use to switch the LEDs from green to red.


----------



## xrunner

I am creating some signal heads for the entrance to the turntable since I wanted a custom setup. I got some styrene at the LHS today to use. The signals will have red and green lights and will be changed when the turntable track lines up with the lead-in track.


----------



## xrunner

Well, I did a trial fit of the signal on the layout where it will reside by the turntable and ran into a problem - the LEDs could not be seen when lit! I modeled the real thing too well - the shade covered up the LEDs very well. I'm not going to all this trouble if the LEDs can't be seen, so I pulled off the "shade" around the LEDs and made some that fit individually over each LED, and you _still_ couldn't really see the lit LED. 

I ended up removing the shades so the LEDs could be seen. Sometimes it doesn't pay to model the real thing exactly!


----------



## xrunner

After 2 days of work I finally got something to show. I need to finish the signal with a ladder and move on to the magnet/relay on the turntable.


----------



## tjcruiser

'Runner,

Nice progress on the signal. I wanted to say again how nice the weather "wood" deck on that turntable looks, too!

TJ


----------



## xrunner

tjcruiser said:


> Nice progress on the signal. I wanted to say again how nice the weather "wood" deck on that turntable looks, too!


Thanks.

That little signal was a challenge. I modeled the real hoods at first and it would have been OK had the signal been oriented in a different direction so the LEDs were visible head-on. But where it was located it might as well not have even had LEDs in it the way it was pointed, so that's why I had to take the hoods off. I want to see LIGHTS!


----------



## Carl

Like the base for the signal


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> Like the base for the signal


That's being fixed as we speak.


----------



## xrunner

Finished and painted.










I got some aluminum stock which I'm making some signal bungalows from like those shown in the pic below. Not sure how I'll do the roof yet.


----------



## Carl

There you go.......nice looking base.


----------



## Xnats

I just love your work X, can't wait to see what you fabricate next :thumbsup: You'll have to do a short video when you get more work done


----------



## joed2323

looks good. how did you get that wood to look so good ? did you scribe lines into it then stain it? what color did you use btw? :thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

joed2323 said:


> looks good. how did you get that wood to look so good ? did you scribe lines into it then stain it? what color did you use btw? :thumbsup:


It's not real wood - it's a printout from an inkjet printer glued onto the top of the turntable. It's a neat way to get good looking textures. I just scale the texture I want, print it out, and seal it with Krylon matte spray. I'm going to use this technique all over my layout.

You can get a lot of textures here, but be careful it's addictive!

http://www.cgtextures.com/


----------



## joed2323

Thanks for the info xrunner


----------



## xrunner

Signal bungalows made from aluminum -


----------



## joed2323

Jeeze xrunner. You modelrailroad god you  good work as usual.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Those look great! :thumbsup:


----------



## Carl

First thought they were outhouses, but as signal boxes they look great.


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> First thought they were outhouses, but as signal boxes they look great.


Or smokehouses. My railroad smokes a lot of brisket.


----------



## lears2005

Wow they look amazing


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Or smokehouses. My railroad smokes a lot of brisket.



They look good.:thumbsup:
They could be an outhouse or smoker house too.:thumbsup:
You need to decal them with some hazard warning signs and maybe a no trespassing sign.
Unless you want to multi task their use.

Did you ever try to work with the aluminum from a can to do kit bashing like that? Seems to me that with the thickness of the cans, it would be easy working them?


----------



## brik-el

Boo-yah!

I love how you make almost everything by yerself!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> They look good.:thumbsup:
> They could be an outhouse or smoker house too.:thumbsup:
> You need to decal them with some hazard warning signs and maybe a no trespassing sign.
> Unless you want to multi task their use.


Thanks. I studied many pictures from this site -

http://www.redoveryellow.com/signals/index.html

It's a good resource for RR signals and what they look like in a setting. Many of the bungalows have nothing more than a small sign with some coded letters/numbers for the route (I don't know what they mean).

However, they would look good with a warning sign on them. Something like the ones below? OK, check back here later.

No smoking? Wonder what's inside?






























> Did you ever try to work with the aluminum from a can to do kit bashing like that? Seems to me that with the thickness of the cans, it would be easy working them?


Yes, I bought some aluminum baking pans but I didn't use them yet. The smooth parts of the pan would work for construction. In any case I wanted real aluminum - painted paper or wood just doesn't look like real metal.


----------



## xrunner

Danger High Voltage signs on the doors, vents on the back. Other than inserting sub-miniature equipment inside I think I'm done with these. I need to figure out how/where to mount 2 magnets 180 deg apart on my turntable so I can trigger a reed relay and switch my entrance signals.


----------



## Big Ed

You forgot the no El-fumeo sign. 

They look complete now, good job.:thumbsup:


----------



## Xnats

They really do look great X :thumbsup: Where did you end up hiding the seems, on the sides?


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> They really do look great X :thumbsup: Where did you end up hiding the seems, on the sides?


It was U-channel stock, so there are only 2 seams. I wanted square stock but what they had in the store was too big. I epoxied the aluminum together and then buffed it with steel wool. The footings are square styrene painted gray. The doors are cut from aluminum flashing, and the door latches were made by gently hammering a small screwdriver blade into the metal. 

All in all it's probably overkill for anyone that ever looks at my layout, but we all know we're all into overkill in this hobby.


----------



## Xnats

Lol X, no way can you have over kill :laugh: Your idea worked out perfect. I thought would folded up a piece of flashing and soldered the end  I just keep thinking, man those are nice bends


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> I thought would folded up a piece of flashing and soldered the end  I just keep thinking, man those are nice bends


I should have lied and you all would never have doubted it. :laugh:


----------



## NIMT

xrunner, The shed with the No smoking sign on the door is probably a switch heater shed. They heat the switch movements points.
Excellent job on the sheds!!:thumbsup::thumbsup: Detail on small items is never overkill!


----------



## xrunner

I am controlling the signal at the lead-in track as shown in the pic. Two magnets are mounted 180 deg apart and when the turntable track lines up with the lead-in track the reed closes and energizes a small SPDT relay under the table. This switches the LEDs from red to green.

I will either disguise the magnets with the same texture as the table or make them look like access panels, or something. The reed relay will be hidden by scenery in the future.


----------



## xrunner

Got the LEDs in the Signal Bridge. Same on the other side. Things are starting to look good with the lights down low.


----------



## xrunner

Turning to a bridge I need to make. I started off with cutting some galvanized steel flashing and soldered some brass to it. It's going to have the look of metal plates on the sides, which I'll print out and glue on.


----------



## Xnats

A pony through plate girder bridge :thumbsup: I like the idea of soldering the railing on. How are you planning to dress the ends up? It would look really cool if you could round the ends but that seems pretty hard.


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> A pony through plate girder bridge :thumbsup: I like the idea of soldering the railing on. How are you planning to dress the ends up? It would look really cool if you could round the ends but that seems pretty hard.


I got the brass in a grab-bag. There wasn't enough of that style to do the ends, but I will make the ends look the same using wood. Still got a lot of work to do on it.


----------



## xrunner

Adding wood strips at ends and bottom. Added wood filler to both sides to thicken the look and to enable easier gluing of paper texture printouts. Thinking of using the attached texture file (with added graffiti?)


----------



## Carl

Like the work in metal and using the texture is a great idea.


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> Like the work in metal and using the texture is a great idea.


Thanks Carl. Here's where it stands now. Thought I'd show the progress in case anyone else was interested in the process. Here I have the bottom and the four sides printed out. I measured very accurately the dimensions of the places to be filled by a printout and simply scaled the printout to that dimension. For the bottom I just used a cropped out part of the middle of one panel and scaled it up so the bottom would have the same colors. The paint I used is Testor's 1185 Rust (flat)


----------



## Canadian Car Knocker

Jesus how long was I away for? Youve progressed alot in the month.


----------



## xrunner

Canadian Car Knocker said:


> Jesus how long was I away for? Youve progressed alot in the month.


Well come back more often!

Here's the finished bridge. Well I might add some weathering chalk but it's mainly done.


----------



## Ranger

That is just... WOW!!!


----------



## Xnats

Yes - Wow 
That came out fantastic X.


----------



## Big Ed

It needs some graffiti.


----------



## Carl

You did good!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## steam chaser

Very nice job,something to be proud of for sure.Great job


----------



## xrunner

Thanks everyone! I really value your opinions.



big ed said:


> It needs some graffiti.


How bad do you want it?


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Thanks everyone! I really value your opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> How bad do you want it?


I hate graffiti but you have some underneath why not on the bridge itself.


How about a RR name/initials?

If it was one square longer BNSF would have fit centered out nicely.


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> I hate graffiti but you have some underneath why not on the bridge itself. How about a RR name/initials?
> 
> If it was one square longer BNSF would have fit centered out nicely.


Does the RR name have to fit inside the "blocks"? Couldn't it be painted across like the pic below?

I do think I'll put a height sign up too.


----------



## Big Ed

I guess so, I was thinking one more box would have fit in the BNSF nicely.

It needs something at the ends too?


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> It needs something at the ends too?


What do you mean "at the ends"?

I'll work on another overlay. The neat thing about this method is it's just a piece of paper. You can redo it simply by gluing another cutout right over the top of the previous one. :thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> What do you mean "at the ends"?
> 
> I'll work on another overlay. The neat thing about this method is it's just a piece of paper. You can redo it simply by gluing another cutout right over the top of the previous one. :thumbsup:


The ends,


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> I hate graffiti but you have some underneath why not on the bridge itself. How about a RR name/initials?


How about this oh wise one - a CSX bridge?

The font is the correct CSX RR font - Lubalin Graph Bold
The low clearance sign is the correct size - 7' x 2'

and some grafitti.


----------



## brik-el

Boo-yah!!!!

Once again great stuff flowing from yer head to your layout!
:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> How about this oh wise one - a CSX bridge?
> 
> The font is the correct CSX RR font - Lubalin Graph Bold
> The low clearance sign is the correct size - 7' x 2'
> 
> and some grafitti.



Well since you asked.
I am not picking it apart just adding a few thoughts.

Why did you underline the letters?
What does the purple graffiti say? 
I think you should make it say Xrunner.:thumbsup:

Looks good except the height signs needs a little weathering?
CXS too?
It looks like the bridge sits a little bit too high?
Do you have to trim it a little?

Love the rivet and beam detailing. It really stands out.:thumbsup:

Now what about my picture that took me an hour to color.
I never did really use the Paint program.

What do you have planned for the "ends"?

If the correct height is 7' 2" how come your sign says 14' 4"?
7' 2" is low for a bridge.


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> Why did you underline the letters?


Because that's the way the real letters look :dunno:












> What does the purple graffiti say?


Who knows? Who can tell what most of the grafittti says? I have a whole page of it and I can understand only a few of the images. That's grafitti for ya.



> Looks good except the height signs needs a little weathering?
> CXS too?


Will do with chalk.



> It looks like the bridge sits a little bit too high?
> Do you have to trim it a little?


I do not understand this comment.



> Now what about my picture that took me an hour to color.
> I never did really use the Paint program. What do you have planned for the "ends"?


Nothing. I looked at a lot of plate girder bridge pics yesterday and I do not see a absolute need for "ends". The way mine is made appears to be a valid way to model one.



> If the correct height is 7' 2" how come your sign says 14' 4"?
> 7' 2" is low for a bridge.


No, no. The actual height and width of a _real low clearance_ sign is 7' x 2'. The height displayed on the sign is a completely different thing. And the weird thing is, the clearance of my bridge is almost exactly 14' 4" scale feet. I just massively lucked out on that!


----------



## The New Guy

xrunner said:


>


That is funny - this bridge is just up the road from me, just over one mile.

Nice work on your bridge.


----------



## Big Ed

I didn't know they underlined the letters.

I understand about the 7' 2" now.

I guess the ends don't need anything.

That rivet detail is all in the paper?
Looks good.:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> That rivet detail is all in the paper?


Yep!



> Looks good.:thumbsup:


Thanks a lot and thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## Bman

xrunner, that bridge looks awesome, I like it!!


----------



## xrunner

Bman said:


> xrunner, that bridge looks awesome, I like it!!



Thanx man!

Hey Ed - look what's going to be on my next bridge -


----------



## Big Ed

I think it would look good on your RR.:thumbsup:

What do you think?


----------



## tjcruiser

Cool graphics, 'Runner!

TJ


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> I think it would look good on your RR.:thumbsup:
> 
> What do you think?


Yes, I want to use it near my other bridge on some concrete. It will be my personal layout signature.


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Yes, I want to use it near my other bridge on some concrete. It will be my personal layout signature.



Cool tag your own RR.:thumbsup:

Put it on buildings, bridges, trucks, water tank everywhere gets a xrunner.:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> Cool tag your own RR.:thumbsup:
> 
> Put it on buildings, bridges, trucks, water tank everywhere gets a xrunner.:thumbsup:


You want me to make you a "Big Ed" grafitti?


----------



## Big Ed

You know what would look nice?

When you build your "Blue" lake , you can add a mountain rising up from the shoreline and make an xrunner sign to plant on the hillside. 
Sort of like the famous Hollywood sign.:thumbsup:

Add LED spotlights to illuminate it.


----------



## xrunner




----------



## gunrunnerjohn

OK, I'm dumb. What are you trying to show us in that photo?


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> OK, I'm dumb. What are you trying to show us in that photo?



It sure does look technical.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> OK, I'm dumb. What are you trying to show us in that photo?


My toes - don't you see them in the lower right?

But really -it is (or was) a Velleman traffic light kit.










I got it to control/simulate some changing spur signals (R/G/Y) but the delay between switching the colors is nowhere near what I want on the layout for siding signals. It's way too fast. It has (had) an adjustment but it isn't sufficient to get the delays I need. I tried modding the component values of the astable transistor circuit but it didn't like the longer delays - seemed erratic.

I removed all the timing components and used a 555 timer to get the delay I wanted. The values I'm using for the 555 are -

R1 - 310
R2 - 33k
C - 100uF

I then feed the output of the 555 into the CLK of the decade counter chip. The outputs to the signal LEDs will be run from the board to the signals where they reside on the layout, instead of placing the LEDs on the board.


----------



## Carl

Not bad, know that you explained it.


----------



## Big Ed

Hmmm, you have red tester wires, green and black tester wires. ( if that is what they are)

YOU HAVE NO BLUE TESTER WIRES?

Do you have something against Blue?


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> Hmmm, you have red tester wires, green and black tester wires. ( if that is what they are)
> 
> YOU HAVE NO BLUE TESTER WIRES?


Blue test leads?

Bwahahahahahaha! Good grief Ed - you never use blue test leads in model railroading! Didn't you know that? :laugh: C'mon this is serious business!

Now continuing -

The WeHonest Chinese supplier wire the anodes of the 3 LEDs together and have separate cathode wires - but that won't work for my needs. I have to have all the LEDs with their own two wires - so I had to take apart all 5 of the little signals and completely rewire them. Painful - painful.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I have some scale traffic lights, but I'm sure not taking them all apart, I'll make the circuitry match the lights!


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have some scale traffic lights, but I'm sure not taking them all apart, I'll make the circuitry match the lights!


It depends on how the LED are wired in the lights - it's not possible to make it work like I want without having each LED with it's own pair of leads because I need to have two in series on separate signals stations for each separate color output from the counter.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'd consider buffers to drive them individually.


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Blue test leads?
> 
> Bwahahahahahaha! Good grief Ed - you never use blue test leads in model railroading! Didn't you know that? :laugh: C'mon this is serious business!
> 
> Now continuing -
> 
> The WeHonest Chinese supplier wire the anodes of the 3 LEDs together and have separate cathode wires - but that won't work for my needs. I have to have all the LEDs with their own two wires - so I had to take apart all 5 of the little signals and completely rewire them. Painful - painful.


I either got my N scale people and cars from them, or it was their cousins WeGoodPeople.:laugh:

Serious they don't use blue for those?:thumbsdown:
Alien Green would work too.:thumbsup:


----------



## Xnats

:laugh: Lol Ed :laugh:
The blue QTip was not enough? Just be glad X did not have black toenail polish on or a bottle of JW Black label sitting on the table :laugh:
Beside traffic signals are wired red for red, yellow for amber, green for green and white serves as the neutral. When X gets to that point and will be utilizing turn arrows then he will use the blue wire  Unless it is a bi-model arrow then blue for green arrow and black for amber arrow and white/ black stripe for the second neutral, since different phases are involved. Geez nothing hard with that


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> Beside traffic signals are wired red for red, yellow for amber, green for green and white serves as the neutral. When X gets to that point and will be utilizing turn arrows then he will use the blue wire  Unless it is a bi-model arrow then blue for green arrow and black for amber arrow and white/ black stripe for the second neutral, since different phases are involved. Geez nothing hard with that


At least one person understands.


----------



## Big Ed

Xnats said:


> :laugh: Lol Ed :laugh:
> The blue QTip was not enough? Just be glad X did not have black toenail polish on or a bottle of JW Black label sitting on the table :laugh:
> Beside traffic signals are wired red for red, yellow for amber, green for green and white serves as the neutral. When X gets to that point and will be utilizing turn arrows then he will use the blue wire  Unless it is a bi-model arrow then blue for green arrow and black for amber arrow and white/ black stripe for the second neutral, since different phases are involved. Geez nothing hard with that



That makes sense, but where does the blue Q tip come into the plan?


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> That makes sense, but where does the blue Q tip come into the plan?


That's what she said.


----------



## Xnats

big ed said:


> That makes sense, but where does the blue Q tip come into the plan?





xrunner said:


> That's what she said.


That means someone is getting a blue pole on their layout. Xrunner are you holding out, over the concern of color commits  A blue traffic signal pole would look real cool.


----------



## xrunner

All modded and ready to install! :thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> All modded and ready to install! :thumbsup:



X ( for xrunner?) marks the spot?

Modded? Is that an electrical term?

By the time your done with your layout it is going to look like a disco ballroom with all the lights.:thumbsup:


----------



## Xnats

Ok this is pretty cool. I thought you were done with the track signals and were working on road signals  You are going to be able to run all 4 of those track signals from the light kit? :thumbsup: Can't wait to see these in action on the layout.


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> Ok this is pretty cool. I thought you were done with the track signals and were working on road signals  You are going to be able to run all 4 of those track signals from the light kit?


Well actually five.

Here's the plan. I already have five R/G/Y signals just like the ones you see already installed. They are triggered off of 5 IR detectors in the track (the same ones Gunrunner just got). They are actual indicators of real activity on a track. I have them next to siding entrances. They're pretty cool.

The signals you see will be connected to the modified traffic controller. The traffic controller was originally designed to simulate a 4 way intersection. I'm mounting it under the table and running wires to five signals, and these will be for show (not tied to actual train activity). They will be for five spurs. That's why I didn't want them to change very fast. The whole sequence Red - Yellow - Green - takes about 45 sec. That's why I added a 555 timer you see added on top because the astable circuit designed into the controller was very poor at long delays. So on the layout you will see 3 spurs in sequence, and the other two spurs in the opposite sequence, but they are far enough apart that it lends a nice slow display that I think will look pretty neat.

I changed the values of the current limiting resistors to accommodate the way I'm connecting the LEDs - one set of "outputs" (R/G/Y) will have two LEDs on at a time (2 red, 2 green, or 2 yellow as the sequence goes), and the other outputs will have three LEDs (three signals) on at a time. I completely broke down the signals to add ground wires, additional, that allowed me to add more paint inside on the LEDs to block light coming out the back. The Chinese assemblers don't take much care in that regard.

I also have five R/G only signals that will go here and there on the tracks which won't change, just for looks. Prolly make them stay green.


----------



## xrunner

Back to your regularly scheduled programming -

I finished the signal controller and it's now wired up to the 5 signals. The delay I picked for the signals changing still seems to be a good choice. Here's what it looks like under the table -


----------



## Carl

I would sure hate to have to trace down a short in that wiring. Hope you have an electrical drawing to remember what each line does or was to do.


----------



## joed2323

you are the electronics guru xrunner  

Its nice seeing your projects you put together, they are always a+ quality:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> I would sure hate to have to trace down a short in that wiring.


It's not really that bad. I used color-coded wires. I put an extra LED on the 555 timer so I can see if it's doing something if I notice up top the signals aren't working. The hardest part was soldering under there. The wires from the signals are very tiny.



> Hope you have an electrical drawing to remember what each line does or was to do.


I do. The Velleman kit did not have a schematic but I was able to find one on the internet. That helped with the mods to the circuit. The 555 timer was a very cheap kit from All Electronics I just picked up for the heck of it when I made a large order. The circuit board it used was etched with non-standard wiring. The resistors were not in the "standard" configuration. Since I thought that was kinda dumb I cut the traces and made it into the standard set up.

I have 5 more signals to wire up in a static configuration then I'm done with signals. They are red/green. I will probably set them all to shine red all the time. After that what next? I need to work on some graphics for concrete retaining walls leading up to a bridge. I need to merge onto the main graphic some weathering, moss, signs, and some gr... oops  I almost used a word that puts some of us in ill repute around here. Well, you'll see the finished product I promise!

Thanks for the comments!


----------



## xrunner

Going to add some lights underneath the bridge on the abutments. One on each side. I'm using LEDs that have a spectrum close to the sodium lights in the pic below. I'm painting the LEDs to make them look like a light is inside an enclosure. Should look really cool with the room lights down low.


----------



## Xnats

Nice 150 watt high pressure sodium Halophane wallpacks.
Here is the size if you need it http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/hlp/documents/specsheets/W4.pdf
Are you using an amber led or are we going to get surprised?


----------



## xrunner

Xnats said:


> Nice 150 watt high pressure sodium Halophane wallpacks.
> Here is the size if you need it http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/Library/hlp/documents/specsheets/W4.pdf
> Are you using an amber led or are we going to get surprised?


Thanks. I'm using two LEDs off a string of Xmas LEDs I got because they have a color that looks like a light bulb, that is they aren't that pure white type of LED. Sortof amber yea. Here's a quick shot. I will be drilling a hole for them - the wires will go out the back, and then running fake conduit to them for looks. For those of you who might be offended by the appearance of certain unmentionable graphics - please avert your eyes from the bottom of the abutment.


----------



## Big Ed

I fixed it for you.
I will send you the bill.


----------



## NIMT

I have some LED's that would work perfect for Metal Halides lamps and the same warm white color too!


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> I have some LED's that would work perfect for Metal Halides lamps and the same warm white color too!


Can you point me to a vendor where I can get some?


----------



## NIMT

xrunner, This guy has a ton of them! North Idaho Model Trains!


----------



## Carl

What a nice plug for your shop.


----------



## NIMT

I'm not proud, I'll pimp myself and my company out anywhere I can! imp:


----------



## xrunner

NIMT said:


> xrunner, This guy has a ton of them! North Idaho Model Trains!


OK if you insist on me going there I will, but I'd prefer sending a PM here.


----------



## xrunner

I think I just outdid myself.

I took a dremel tool and cut off a 45 deg angle at the underside of the LED at the front and painted again, so it has a nice look to it. I drilled holes in the foam and pulled the wires through and wow - they really look like the real thing! They shine down and have a nice luminosity flare off at both sides. Can't wait to get them going under the bridge.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks great, nice light distribution for LED's. :thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Looks great, nice light distribution for LED's. :thumbsup:


Thanks - I got sidetracked for few days.

Finally got them installed and they look great. Under the bridge there's going to be a road and a stream going off to the right. The stream will be going through a manmade concrete waterway under the bridge so the little Chinese painted people can fish or walk along safely. 

The concrete retaining walls are now my next target of opportunity. I need to finalize the graphics and get it all printed out on good quality paper and install some other trim items.


----------



## Ranger

That is awesome looking. Great job!!


----------



## xrunner

Ranger said:


> That is awesome looking. Great job!!


Thanks!

Been working on some "concrete" fascia around the bridge. Made it using strips of wood. I used CA to attach it to the painted foam because it had to hold tight around the bends. If the paint had not been there the CA would have dissolved the foam so watch out. I mixed up some light gray paint for the concrete coloring. I want to add more ballast up top too. The test printouts on the side will be finalized (not sure about the rusty drip I have along the top) and printed out/glued to the sides.


----------



## xrunner

The tops of many concrete retaining walls along the freeway have simple fencing at the top. I looked in the attic and found a perfect material to reproduce it - 1/2 " wire hardware cloth. I cut the squares in half lengthwise and filed the nubs flat and painted it flat silver. I then drilled a whole lot of tiny holes and pressed it into place. Only requires a few drops of glue here and there to hold it in place. It looks remarkably like the real tubular fencing.


----------



## Carl

Bridge is looking good


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> Bridge is looking good


Thank you.

I've spent several days looking at textures here -

http://www.cgtextures.com/

(I've posted the link again so anyone not familiar with the site can check it out)

because I want to do something interesting with the other incline leading up to the other bridge I have shown below (the bridge pic you see is an older one, it has since been modded with better graphics). The incline I'm referring to is the one to the right about 1.5 feet long leading up to the bridge.

I think I know what I want to do, it's going to be a mix of modelling reality and a little artistic license mixed together.


----------



## xrunner

OK I found a pic of what I want to model leading up to the small bridge from the right. It took me a while to find this pic but I was sure it had to have been done somewhere before - by that I mean in real life a concrete incline not simply earth.










I'm going to cover the blocks of foam comprising the incline with a texture and duplicate somewhat what's shown in the pic. Mine won't be as "clean" looking though, and will have graffiti on it (oh dear, did I just admit that again?). Here's the texture I want to use -


----------



## sstlaure

That exact kind of incline climbs up out of the UP Ogden yard. Here are some pics I took while on a trip to the area.

It's a stepped square stone wall that rises up so that the branch can go fly over the yard. You can just make out the bridge over the yard in the distance of the 2nd pic


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> That exact kind of incline climbs up out of the UP Ogden yard. Here are some pics I took while on a trip to the area.


Hey thanks man! I was sorta modelling "backwards" in the sense that I decided what to do and then wondered if it was ever really done - LOL.


----------



## sstlaure

If you want to get a better look at it, you can probably do a Bird's eye view in one of the map programs. Just type Union Station Ogden, UT in the search. It's the double-track mainline that climbs going south right against the orange roofed station/train sheds, then crosses over the mainline.


----------



## Carl

That is a great idea for an incline.


----------



## xrunner

Here's what I finally came up with. A concrete retaining wall look for the sides and a dark dirt fill for the top. Later I'll add some weeds and real dirt but for now it looks pretty good.


----------



## New Berlin RR

very good X looks great!!


----------



## flatire1256

Lookin' Good!


----------



## xrunner

Adding a vertical extension of plates as seen on many concrete retaining walls along highways and such.


----------



## Carl

Lo0oking good.


----------



## Ranger

wow.. you have a real talent when it comes to making things. Looking good


----------



## xrunner

Ranger said:


> wow.. you have a real talent when it comes to making things. Looking good


Thanks. Too bad I can't give you a +1 karma point for saying that.

I'm now trying to figure out a way to make N scale chain link fence and I think I've got it figured out.

Stay tuned ...


----------



## New Berlin RR

nice work so far X, I wish I had your talent with making things!!


----------



## Ranger

xrunner said:


> Thanks. Too bad I can't give you a +1 karma point for saying that.
> 
> I'm now trying to figure out a way to make N scale chain link fence and I think I've got it figured out.
> 
> Stay tuned ...


NP..You're teaching me how to make things for my layout.


----------



## xrunner

Here's the first try. I used the 1/2 " wire cloth for the fence supports and aluminum window screen for the chain link fencing. I actually wired the screen to the supports just like a real fence - pretty time consuming. The fencing is not stuck into the foam in the pic. I'm not satisfied yet with the look because the wires start to unravel at the ends - I have another idea to try. Will get back to you ...


----------



## Ranger

looks pretty good so far


----------



## xrunner

This worked out better. I super glued the screen to the wire cloth. The screen was cut at a 45 deg angle. I then laid the screen on top of the wire cloth and held it down with weights. It really looks realistic. I'm sure you'd pay an arm and a leg for it at the hobby store. I can make a whole lot of fencing like this for practically nothing.


----------



## lmdave

That fence looks awesome. 

I'm about to try my luck at making an N Scale wooden fence.


----------



## xrunner

lmdave said:


> That fence looks awesome.
> 
> I'm about to try my luck at making an N Scale wooden fence.


Great! Post some pics so I can try it myself.


----------



## brik-el

Hey xrunner.

Would you be able to post a pic of your entire layout how it has progressed lately.

Your last full layout pic is on page *23* of your post here.

Keep up the good work:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

I want to eventually make a heliport scene. I think the owner of the railroad is going to own a helicopter. Since I couldn't find an accurate helipad texture, I got the FAA document for designing heliports and made one according to their specs. Later when I get into the scene I will add green lights around the TLOF (inner white line) and FATO (outer white dashed line). I finally found an N scale helicopter on Ebay, it's been ordered and it's coming from Germany. It has Japanese markings which I will have to paint over or something. There just aren't many N scale helicopters to choose from out there.

Here's the graphic if anyone wants it -










I made some final changes to the yard. I moved the inspection pit back towards the turntable and installed two more turnouts where the inspection pit was, because I want as much storage as possible in the yard. It also makes it easier to view the inspection pit. Here is what it looks like now -










And the rest of the layout -


----------



## Ranger

I`m going to honest I am jealous of you`re layout. It is going look awesome when its done


----------



## UPBigBoy

Rather than taking up ground space for your heliport, why not put it on top of a building?

Jim


----------



## xrunner

UPBigBoy said:


> Rather than taking up ground space for your heliport, why not put it on top of a building?
> 
> Jim


It's a possibility, I need to get the helicopter in my hands and place it on the layout and get a feel of what size building I would need to get.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Get one of the cheap IR models, with practice you can have your RR Tycoon fly in.


----------



## xrunner

Got the concrete plate texture up along with a few more pieces of fascia made out of wood. I used Elmer's craft bond spray adhesive to attach the printouts to the foam. Added some weathering powder also. Still got a long way to go, but I'm pleased with the results.


----------



## brylerjunction

that fence is really cool...you could sell the heck out of it...I wish I had skills like that..


----------



## sstlaure

Love the textures. Excellent work.


----------



## Ranger

As usual, looking good


----------



## xrunner

Thank you.

I think I'm going to now turn to building my tunnels/mountain. I think the technique I'll use will be the one shown in the link (the bige61's channel) using extruded foam with washes.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA1378DF426F2C713&feature=plcp

I'm still waiting on my N helicopter to arrive from Germany. I need it to make sure of where I want to put the helipad because it might affect how far out the mountain comes. I also want to cast more plaster rocks for the mountain. I have a BLMA radio tower (70 scale ft high) that I want to put up on the mountain so I might make a scene with the tower, a small building, and a blinking red light on the tower. I'll need a dirt road going up to it too.


----------



## Carl

Great work on your layout.


----------



## xrunner

It arrived - the hard-to-find N scale helicopter. It only took 6 business days to arrive from Germany. It's an Augusta Westland EH-101. According to my N scale ruler it's sized just right to the real thing. It has some Japanese decals (#92 and a few Japanese letters). It's somewhat of a kit, but not too many parts. I will be removing the Japanese markings somehow.










Not that it matters, but there really is a #92 EH-101 like this model with Japanese markings -


----------



## Carl

Great looking helicopter. Reminds me of the ones that they use for flights out of New York to New Jersey.


----------



## xrunner

Got the helicopter finished. After scraping the Japanese insignia off, creative painting over Japanese lettering and other parts, additional prototypical paint, it looks pretty snappy.

I'll need to come up with a base for the helipad because I'll need to install a lot of LEDs - both green and white, that poke out of the concrete, and I'll need to do a lot of wiring, so I think a sub-module for that pad will be the ticket made out of thin wood or something.


----------



## Ranger

looks good


----------



## New Berlin RR

looking great, cant wait to see what you got!!


----------



## UPBigBoy

What about painting the tips of the main rotor and the tail rotor either bright red or yellow as the real ones are? Just a thought

Jim


----------



## brik-el

If you continued that Orange all over the Heli, it would look like Ontario's Air Ambulances.:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

UPBigBoy said:


> What about painting the tips of the main rotor and the tail rotor either bright red or yellow as the real ones are? Just a thought
> 
> Jim


If you look at the real version of this 'copter on the previous page you'll see it isn't painted like you suggest. If you Google EH-101 and look at the pics you'll find all kinds of paint schemes. So there are many ways to paint it "like the real ones are". 

But this isn't meant to represent a real military one, because I don't have a military base on my layout. It's just meant to be a company helicopter. The orange was already on parts of it so I decided to use that color to cover parts where the Japanese insignias were. It turns out that I had some Polly Scales Utility Orange that matches it perfectly.


----------



## xrunner

I decided to keep working on the helipad because, well, I want to put off the mountains for as long as possible. hwell:

I cut a square piece of balsa the size of the pad. The graphic will be glued to the top. I'm adding sides to it so there will be room for the LEDs underneath. Then I plan to drill holes for the LEDa and have them stick out about 1 mm.


----------



## brik-el

Man!
I can't wait for the future to come so I can see your completely finished layout.

You have such great ideas, and your crafting abilities are top notch!


----------



## xrunner

brik-el said:


> Man!
> I can't wait for the future to come so I can see your completely finished layout


Kick back and enjoy the ride because it will be years before it's done. Heck, I don't _want_ it to be finished. My gawd that would be horrible! There would be nothing left to do but operate the trains. I'd have to start re-building parts all over again to avoid calling it done.



> You have such great ideas, and your crafting abilities are top notch!


Thanks, but I'm not that good, there's better than me on the forum. I do want to do some things I've not seen on other layouts, such as the helipad scene. I will keep looking for other things to do that are a little different, if there are any new ideas left. If there are I'll find 'em.


----------



## Carl

I may be taking a ride out to one of the drill rigs in the Gulf.....will try to get to some pictures for you (if they will let me take some.....last time...no pictures allowed)


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> I may be taking a ride out to one of the drill rigs in the Gulf.....will try to get to some pictures for you (if they will let me take some.....last time...no pictures allowed)


Kool!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Carl said:


> I may be taking a ride out to one of the drill rigs in the Gulf.....will try to get to some pictures for you (if they will let me take some.....last time...no pictures allowed)


Make a few "phone calls" with your camera phone.


----------



## xrunner

I already got the 2mm LEDs from LED-switch! I only ordered them Sunday.

A test reveals that the white 2mm greatly outshines the greens at the same current, so I'll have to compensate for the brightness by reducing the current to the whites. I could make a damn good flashlight out of these white 2mm LEDs.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I find the red or white are brighter than the green, so I just tune the currents to get the lighting I desire. Of course, normally the red/green being dimmer is desired as a rule for my uses...


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I find the red or white are brighter than the green, so I just tune the currents to get the lighting I desire. Of course, normally the red/green being dimmer is desired as a rule for my uses...


Yep, as you can see in the pic, there is a green LED on that breadboard, but it's completely swamped by the white LED - both at 20 mA. I'll fix that by lowering the current as you stated in that white circuit later.

I have cut some filler pieces to insert into the base, so that the tower of the LEDs will show about 1 mm above the helipad surface. I'm more or less trying to model this type of helipad LED light -


----------



## xrunner

I got a high quality printout attached to the base. I then drilled all the holes for the LEDs. There will be 24 white and 32 green. From the looks of the one green I tested, it's gonna be quite a sight!


----------



## sstlaure

Looks great.


----------



## lmdave

This looks awesome. I wish I had a big layout, I'd do an airport runway with the blue and white LEDs. Look forward to seeing this one finished.


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> Looks great.


Thank you.



lmdave said:


> This looks awesome. I wish I had a big layout, I'd do an airport runway with the blue and white LEDs. Look forward to seeing this one finished.


Yea I wanted to do a small airport but couldn't justify the footprint it would have needed. A helicopter - well that fits the bill.


----------



## xrunner

Teaser - one side of greens done. Each side will consist of 8 green LEDs. I could have used a few more in each string having a 24 V supply, but I chose to wire it up as 4 identical strings.

If anyone is learning how to work with LEDs here is the calculation I used -

Voltage drop across green LED = 2.2V

PS = 24V

# of LEDs = 8

LED current = 20 mA

8 * 2.2 = 17.6V across all LEDs

24 - 17.6 = 6.4 v across limiting resistor

6.4 V / .02 = 320 ohm resistor required

Since I had a lot of 620 ohm resistors I simply wired 2 in parallel to give 310 ohms - close enough for government work. Since the LEDs were close together I just bent the wires to solder them together.


----------



## sstlaure

Very cool. ever think about putting some correct lighting on the helicopter as well?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'd probably consider running the LED's at about half the current. They'll be almost as bright and last forever.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'd probably consider running the LED's at about half the current. They'll be almost as bright and last forever.


Oh now. 

Running at 20 mA, 24/7/365, how many years will an LED last (approx.) in your opinion?

Using this source -



> LEDs have a MTBF (mean time between failures) usually in the range of 100,000 to over 1,000,000 hours. This is a long time for continuous operation, considering that a year is 8760 or 8784 hours. In practice, the useful measure of LED lifetime is its half-life; an LED is deemed to have reached the end of its life when the light output falls off to half the original.
> 
> http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/1883


Lets pick an intermediate number - 500,000 hours MTBF.

500,000 / 8760 = 57 years before a failure

But that's running 24/7/365, it will last 57 years. I'm not going to be running them at anywhere near that amount of on time. Maybe several hours a day and not every day. Even at 57 years I'll be dead by the time one fails. Do you disagree with that calculation?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I don't doubt they'll outlive you, I just have never seen the need for running them at max current. Usually, they're too bright for most uses on the layout running at full current. 90% of my recommendation for lower current is just that they are typically too bright at full current.

I'd also take MTBF ratings with a grain of salt, since those are optimistic estimates based on optimum operating conditions. One voltage spike that exceeds the reverse voltage specification for the LED can take them out. If you look at the MTBF of many semiconductor components, you'll see similar MTBF numbers. Funny thing, those semiconductors fail with regularity in the real world. I spent years building avionic equipment, and we'd meticulously calculate MTBF numbers based on all the components in a design. Those numbers were basically BS when it came to real world failure rates.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I don't doubt they'll outlive you, I just have never seen the need for running them at max current. Usually, they're too bright for most uses on the layout running at full current. 90% of my recommendation for lower current is just that they are typically too bright at full current.


The greens seem to be OK brightness wise. But the whites, yes as I've said they are WAY too bright @20 mA and will be operated at a reduced current.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Green ones tend to be the least bright most of the time, followed by the yellow ones. The red ones are usually too bright for me at full current. Even with O-gauge headlights, I normally run those LED's at 10-12 ma max, the 20 seems like overkill.


----------



## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> Very cool. ever think about putting some correct lighting on the helicopter as well?


Oops sorry I missed this. Maybe with a fiber optic cable. We'll see.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Fiber optic? Be a real man and put LED's in there!


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Fiber optic? Be a real man and put LED's in there!


Hey - be a real man and run your LEDs @ 20 mA!

But, I did an experiment and I agree that a lower current is just as good as 20 mA. So I am using 620 ohm resistors now. 

You can now sleep better at night.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I only worry when they're my LED's.


----------



## xrunner

Well after some side by side experiments with the green and white LEDs on separate power supplies, and adjusting the apparent brightness of the white LED to be about the same as the green, it looks like the white will run at 0.7 mA. Yea that's right - 0.7 mA.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I rarely need them to be the same brightness, but I know that white ones are far brighter than green ones at the same current. I'm surprised it's .7ma, but if that's how they work... Different makes of LED's do have different current requirements for the same illumination, so you have some very efficient ones.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, I rarely need them to be the same brightness, but I know that white ones are far brighter than green ones at the same current. I'm surprised it's .7ma, but if that's how they work... Different makes of LED's do have different current requirements for the same illumination, so you have some very efficient ones.


Yea it shocked me too. I measured the voltage drop across the current limiting resistor and calculated the current, and I didn't believe it at first. Then I inserted my little ammeter and it verified it was 0.7 mA at the brightness level I needed.

Wow, yea very efficient white LEDs!


----------



## xrunner




----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks great, but the white ones are not all that bright.


----------



## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Looks great, but the white ones are not all that bright.


I ran them @ 20 mA and they all blew out.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

xrunner said:


> I ran them @ 20 mA and they all blew out.


----------



## Carl

Dang.............you are having nothing but fun with those little bitty lights....


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> Dang.............you are having nothing but fun with those little bitty lights....


Wait till you see the next phase ...


----------



## NIMT

Come on... lets get some tiny ones in there!


----------



## andrew10

its gonna look like a big Chistmas tree!!....lol....looks very awesome I bet it gives off a pretty good light when all the LEDs are lit up..u have ALOT of patience.

steve a.


----------



## xrunner

andrew10 said:


> ...u have ALOT of patience.


With gunrunnerjohn? I know, but it's just his personality.

Here's all the whites lit up -


----------



## brik-el

Very nice!

Can't wait to see this on yer layout!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

After he gets done with his layout and flips on all the lights you will be able to see them all the way from the space station.:thumbsup:

Are you going to hang the whirly bird on a fishing line to make it look like it is coming in for a landing?:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner

big ed said:


> Are you going to hang the whirly bird on a fishing line to make it look like it is coming in for a landing?:thumbsup:


Interesting idea.



> After he gets done with his layout and flips on all the lights you will be able to see them all the way from the space station.:thumbsup:


I just got all the LEDs wired up - wait till you see the next pic!    imp:


----------



## Carl

It works !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## xrunner

Carl said:


> It works !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yay! About 3 weeks of work off and on.

Here's a real one (not the same design as mine but it's useful for comparison). I might add some general street lighting later or even some floodlights that shine in from the corners.










Here's mine with all the lights working -


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## brik-el

:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

Here's a trial placement -


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## Carl

Looks good......sure in the heck can not miss it


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## New Berlin RR

looking really good there!! can't miss it, may have to send my helis over there for some repairs or at least to deliver some new toys (and get some hehe)


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## sstlaure

Looks great.

Have you thought about a purpose for it? Maybe a Border Patrol station?


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## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> Looks great.


Thanx.



> Have you thought about a purpose for it? Maybe a Border Patrol station?


Yes, I think the owner of the RR owns a helicopter. I think he'll have an office right where it lands where he can view his kingdom.


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## New Berlin RR

well looks like a nice rave pad  perhaps some in my kingdom should come visit yours and P-A-R-T-A-Y


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## New Berlin RR

any updates X??? im hanging off a cliff over here!!!


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## Ranger

I think he might of left the forum. He hasnt logged on since August 18th. I hope not thou, I enjoy his layout pics.


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## MacDaddy55

*X-files!?*

Yeah I think X has left the building! He had a run in with Moderators over some hot discussion and was on the verge of being banned.....but thats all I know...maybe TJ or Gunrunner can let us know whats up...yeah I kinda enjoyed his demeanor and his pics!


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## gunrunnerjohn

He wasn't banned, but I guess he was somewhat miffed about the situation and just left.


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## Gansett

I started shaving my butt a few years ago. Don't want to get that wild hair across,ya know. I can be somewhat expressive[HA!] in my opinions but realize others may not take the same care and diligence in shaving as I do. So I accept their opinions even if they're wrong


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## MacDaddy55

*Thanks Gunrunner!*

Hey Gunrunner, I know there was something up but didn't know the particulars but to each his own...the last time I posted him he was talking banishment or such and was going to take a vacation from the Forum...didn't know it would be permanent!


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## Big Ed

He asked some questions and no one could answer him.

Then he started a thread/poll asking if members thought he should stay or leave.
A couple including a mod said leave, a few said stay then all of the sudden the thread disappeared from the site. It was not posted that long. It didn't get locked but just POOOOOF gone.

I know where he is but I don't know if I should say, I won't, he will probably see the comments on his build thread and I will leave it up to him to answer or not.

By the way the FORUM RULES have be updated as of 8/31/12.

All interested can see them here,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/misc.php?do=page&template=ForumRules


I don't know if anyone in power notified anyone here that they were updated? 

If they did I must have missed it the notification.


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## Ranger

I hope he will come back, even if its just to update his build log.


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## xrunner

A member PMed me so I thought I'd respond here. Yea I'm alive.

Hello everyone, I've kept in touch with Ed in another forum where I have a layout thread going. If you wanna know where it is PM Ed or PM me. I don't want to advertise another competing forum in the open. I left because of what Ed mentioned, and because of some nasty PMs I received from mods/members, and because in a thread (now deleted) members were telling me to go away. I see the rules were updated, but I have yet to see what rule I ever violated. I just have a strong personality and stand up for what I believe, which is not against the rules of any forum I've ever been on or run myself. 

Now, since I've responded to _others_ questions here, you just watch, we'll all be told to get back to trains, _just because I made a post_. By definition, it's always my fault.

Anyway, I'm willing to see what can be done, but it requires a conversation, not the locking or deleting of threads.


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## Carl

Nice to see you are back.


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## joed2323

Wow! I hate to see this happen to anyone, especially xrunner. I think xrunner has been a inspiration to many modelers on this forum.

Ive always felt this forum was one of the best and i still do. 

I sure hope the mods can figure this out because i firmly believe you will be sadly missed:thumbsup:

Again dont leave because someone is pushing you too, stand up for whats right, and lets continue on with your build thread (on this forum) please!!!


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## tjcruiser

joed2323 said:


> I sure hope the mods can figure this out because i firmly believe you will be sadly missed:thumbsup:


There's always two sides to every coin.


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## xrunner

Carl said:


> Nice to see you are back.


I wouldn't go that far Carl. I still feel that several people in charge don't really want me here. 



tjcruiser said:


> There's always two sides to every coin.


It feels more like we're dealing with a pair of dice to me.

Here's some scenery I've recently done.


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## Ranger

That is awesome looking. Makes me not want to post pictures of my layout anymore . That scenery puts mine to shame.


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## Carl

Looking good.


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## xrunner

Invasion -


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## sstlaure

Never seen a fat mummy before.


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> There's always two sides to every coin.


Yes, but there are double sided coins. Come on kiss & make up already.



xrunner said:


> I wouldn't go that far Carl. I still feel that several people in charge don't really want me here.
> It feels more like we're dealing with a pair of dice to me.


You mean like a _crap_ shoot?:smokin:














What is that? The Pillsbury dough boy dressed for Halloween? :laugh:
You got to put some green LED's for the eyes.:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Yes, but there are double sided coins. Come on kiss & make up already.


Still waiting on a kiss


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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Still waiting on a kiss



Awww, you really don't want a kiss do you?


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Awww, you really don't want a kiss do you?


Sure, from T.J.


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## xrunner

I added new two-head signals I got from the Ebay WeHonest China people. I decided to use a basic understandable set of aspects as shown in the attachment. As some of you know, but others may not, you can signal the same thing using one, two, or three heads. I'm using one and two head signals for variety on the layout.

You can find this set of rules and others here -

http://www.railroadsignals.us/rulebooks/rulebooks.htm


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## MacDaddy55

xrunner said:


> Invasion -


I was gonna comment and say thanks for the info on signals...But THAT Mummy is FUNNY!! Keep posting X....good work!!:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

Been adding more signals, and also made a plexiglass perimeter along part of the layout. Some of the track/signals are close to the edge and adult elbows could hit them, and the miniature humanoids I believe are known as "children" can reach for things.


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## sstlaure

Looks great. I love the details along the retaining wall and the signals. What did you attach the plexiglass to the fascia with?


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## xrunner

sstlaure said:


> Looks great. I love the details along the retaining wall and the signals.


Thank you for your kind words,



> What did you attach the plexiglass to the fascia with?


Just screws.


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## sstlaure

xrunner said:


> Thank you for your kind words,
> 
> 
> 
> Just screws.


It looked like they were stainless aircraft fasteners. Looks great.


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## buck71usa

Are those signals all from the wehonest people on ebay? i have been considering ordering some to test out! are you using the infrared ones? btw love the detail work in ur layout!


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## xrunner

buck71usa said:


> Are those signals all from the wehonest people on ebay? i have been considering ordering some to test out! are you using the infrared ones? btw love the detail work in ur layout!


Yes sir they are from WeHonest. They are a good store. In fact I've been working with the owner - Lu - because I ordered some dual-head signals (6 LEDs in all) and the way they were wired was not working out. He had the factory wire all 6 LEDs with a common anode and that prevented two different color LEDs from being lit at the same time do to a parallel electrical path, I told him about this and he immediately told me he made a mistake in how he told the factory to wire them up. He's sending me two more wired up with separate anodes at no charge.

Highly recommended supplier. :thumbsup:


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## buck71usa

I have bought some of there scenery items before but havent tried there electronics! If and when u have time could u post a few pics of the sensor placements and ur wired board! Im not completely electronically efficient and it would help tons! Thx Paul


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## xrunner

buck71usa said:


> I have bought some of there scenery items before but havent tried there electronics! If and when u have time could u post a few pics of the sensor placements and ur wired board! Im not completely electronically efficient and it would help tons! Thx Paul


Yes I will. I will do that for you in the next few days, provided I don't get in serious trouble for being involved in political threads.


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## buck71usa

Lol! I stay far away from those. To much trouble for no more than they are! Thx for the pics in advance! Hope u don't get the BAN hammer I really enjoy seeing ur work!


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## xrunner

buck71usa said:


> Lol! I stay far away from those. To much trouble for no more than they are! Thx for the pics in advance! Hope u don't get the BAN hammer I really enjoy seeing ur work!


Thank you. I doubt they will ban me because I think I help keep the forum from being too bland.

Think of me as a little bit of pepper on your potato salad. Not too much but enough to make your taste buds come alive.


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## broox

Wouldnt it just be a 24 hour ban? its how it works on other forums I'm on... just lets things cool off, ya know what I mean?
I can't see them permabanning anyone in a hurry.

Btw, I'm not saying anyone here deserves a ban.


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## broox

xrunner said:


> Think of me as a little bit of pepper on your potato salad.


So YOU put the spring in Springfield :laugh:


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## xrunner

broox said:


> Wouldnt it just be a 24 hour ban? its how it works on other forums


Who knows what they'd do broox? They don't operate like any other forum moderators I've ever run across. As far as I can see they just wait till the last minute and react to the situation after it gets out of hand, which is long past the time when they should have first done some moderation. Of course, right before that, they might post silly off-topic pics or quips themselves showing that the rules don't apply to them, but do for everyone else. 

I really dunno how they operate or who trained them for the job as forum moderators. They're not active moderators they are _reactive_ moderators. I'd be willing to help them understand how to properly moderate a forum but I doubt they are the least bit interested in improving the quality of moderation, but I'm always here if they are interested. 



buck71usa said:


> I have bought some of there scenery items before but havent tried there electronics! If and when u have time could u post a few pics of the sensor placements and ur wired board! Im not completely electronically efficient and it would help tons! Thx Paul


So you can see how the board is mounted under the layout and how the wires go up to the track above. Above, the sensors - an IR LED emitter and the receiver - are mounted in the track pointing up in holes drilled into the track. When a train goes over the track the IR beam bounces off the car and back to the receiver.

In the example, you can see the red arrow which shows where the sensors are, and it points to the signal they control. In this example, if a train comes down the main line the signal to the train on the siding would go to yellow then red and back to green. You can set the delay on the board.


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## Carl

That is an interesting way to deal with train tracking....that LED looks like a thing from science fiction movie.....do they make smaller LED's?


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## buck71usa

Thx X! Have u tried hooking the signals to tortoises? Been curious if they will work for that application as well!


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## broox

Did it cost much to get the LED, IR signals?

Was the wiring a hassle?

Looks like a fairly simple solution though, right? as its sorta independant of the rest of the layouts wiring (sans power) and the controllers, or have i got that wrong?


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## xrunner

broox said:


> Did it cost much to get the LED, IR signals?


The controller boards were 5 for $55. The signals were 5 for $17

Here's the store -

http://stores.ebay.com/WEHONEST/USA-store-/_i.html?_fsub=7&_sid=149381402&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322



> Was the wiring a hassle?


Sortof. It's a project that's for sure. But it's doable given patience



> Looks like a fairly simple solution though, right? as its sorta independant of the rest of the layouts wiring (sans power) and the controllers, or have i got that wrong?


Yea it's separate from all the other wiring, DCC etc. Just needs power for the boards.

All the other signals on my layout are powered by by several constant current drivers, just connecting one signal to the other in series. I have three of these series chains of signals as of today.


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## xrunner

Going to be creating a little scene around this shed on the layout. The shed is just a printed-out paper model with black paint on the inside to block the light from coming through. I'll be using a single LED inside. Don't know what else will be around it, we'll see what evolves.


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## xrunner

More work on the scene. I'm making a road out of 1/16" foam that will go over the tracks to another area with a small shed and two fuel storage tanks. I have ordered some new 1.6 mm LEDs that I'm going to use to make street lights for the concrete slab area using small copper tubing.

If I place a small N scale person in the doorway of the shed it makes a very cool shadow.


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## Big Ed

Wehonest sells N people, I got a bunch off of them a while ago.

I don't know about now but mine where all oriental people.
Either Chinese or Japanese.
I heard the have a more Americanized people now?
I will have to check them out.
I bought 50 N scale cars off of them too, nice for a parking lot scene.

Layout coming along nice X.:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Wehonest sells N people, I got a bunch off of them a while ago.


Yea that's where I got 'em because you were the one who told me about them. I got vehicles from them too, but they need more variety



> Layout coming along nice X.:thumbsup:


Thank you.


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## buck71usa

Nice lil shanty X! :thumbsup: i just ordered the flasher unit and the logic unit from we honest. im gonna try it on a walthers railroad crossing cantilever! hopefully it will have the desired effect since walthers dropped the ball with there controller system for it!


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## xrunner

Been making some street lights based off this technique -

N Scale Street Lights

I used 1/16 x .014 copper tubing and 1.6 mm LEDs. The light is about 20 scale feet high not including an extra 1/2 " at the bottom to stick into the foam. I painted the package of the LED to prevent light from escaping anywhere but the "lamp" area. I used white first, to reflect light back, then two coats of black, then finally flat aluminum for the whole thing. I'm going to make a bunch more after this prototype test.


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## Ranger

that is awesome looking. Is there anything you can't make?


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## Big Ed

Nice X, how many you going to make? A couple hundred?

Your layout is going to look like NYC from the air when you get it all done and turn on the lights.:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

Ranger said:


> that is awesome looking. Is there anything you can't make?


Yep - there's lots of things I can't make. But, this isn't that hard, you can make them too.



big ed said:


> Nice X, how many you going to make? A couple hundred?


No not that many. Maybe 15 or 20. But for the yard I'm going to make one as shown below. The way the 1.6 mm LEDs are made lends them to easily be soldered in series in a pentagon or hexagon pointing down, so it shouldn't be too hard to make a big yard tower light. Stay tuned.


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## Big Ed

Are you going to make it like the real ones that lower to the ground to replace the bulbs?:thumbsup:

Nice lights.:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Are you going to make it like the real ones that lower to the ground to replace the bulbs?:thumbsup:


Hmmm ... do you have a pic of one like that?



> Nice lights.:thumbsup:


Thank you for the kind words. I had a slight malfunction this afternoon, when I got in a hurry and connected the first one I had made to the PS directly without the constant current device - had a small amount of smoke and that nice burning electronics smell.

:smilie_daumenneg:

No children were within listening distance to hear the utterances that emanated from my mouth. However, it wasn't too difficult to repair, so the original is back online and being glued into the simulated concrete parking lot. Will show more tomorrow.


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## Big Ed

You know that they make them that lower down to replace the bulbs, I am not jerking your chain. They use them along the Jersey pike, I have watched them lower them while on break.

They are used in a lot of stadiums, known as stadium lights, they come in different configurations.

I could not find one in the lowered position but found you a little info,

http://www.stresscrete.com/pdf/SpecialtyPoles.pdf

http://www.millerberndmfg.com/steel_lighting_poles/high_mast/

Not exactly what you have pictured though.
The ones you do have pictured look like the ones on the Jersey pike.

I was only kidding about you making them so that they lower.
They will make a nice addition to your layout.:thumbsup:


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## xrunner

Here's the scene I've been working on -


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## buck71usa

Very nice! Great work as always


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## Nuttin But Flyer

x -- I have been reading all the postings here and I must say, I am impressed. I don't know what went on a little while back and frankly I don't wanna know. But I am glad you are continuing to post progress. This is the type of information that signifies the reason for this Forum. I am pleased and awed to see this type of craftsmanship. It has inspired me to think "outside the box" in search of ideas how craft objects. Never would I have imagined so many junk items laying around the house can be made useful. Please keep posting so we all will benefit. If you have not already done so, please consider writing a book of your talents. I would buy it.


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## xrunner

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> x -- I have been reading all the postings here and I must say, I am impressed. I don't know what went on a little while back and frankly I don't wanna know. But I am glad you are continuing to post progress. This is the type of information that signifies the reason for this Forum. I am pleased and awed to see this type of craftsmanship. It has inspired me to think "outside the box" in search of ideas how craft objects. Never would I have imagined so many junk items laying around the house can be made useful. Please keep posting so we all will benefit. If you have not already done so, please consider writing a book of your talents. I would buy it.


My gosh - I'm speechless. I don't think I'm as good as many others here but thank you for your comments. I'll continue to post as long as I'm allowed. It's just that Big Ed keeps dragging me into political threads ...

Thank you again for your very kind comments.


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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> My gosh - I'm speechless. I don't think I'm as good as many others here but thank you for your comments. I'll continue to post as long as I'm allowed. It's just that Big Ed keeps dragging me into political threads ...
> 
> Thanks you again for your very kind comments.



I will be your manager on the books, 50-50.
But the cover has to be blue, deep blue like way out in the ocean.:thumbsup:

We will have a special section on locked threads.


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> I will be your manager on the books, 50-50.
> But the cover has to be blue, deep blue like way out in the ocean.:thumbsup:
> 
> We will have a special section on locked threads.


Maybe I should start a new Model Railroading forum with political and religious debate off-topic areas?   

I'm going to try and duplicate this type of parking lot light too for some of my parking lots. In my town they are all over and usually painted brown - will show results as I have them -


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## lears2005

Can't wait to see how they turn out


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## xrunner

Here they are - a finished one on the left and one in progress on the right. On this type I cut off the LED "lens" so the LED is perfectly flat where the light shines out. This type has a really neat look on the layout because the light mainly only shines down.


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## Ranger

looks pretty close to the actual one


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## Carl

You are on the right rack. In my humble opinion, you might consider tapering the poles by sanding.


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## xrunner

Carl said:


> You are on the right rack. In my humble opinion, you might consider tapering the poles by sanding.


Yes a good idea. The LED lead at the front is a little problematic too. I could have tried to bend it tightly up and over, instead of leaving it stick out a bit for the wire, but I've run into problems on some LEDs where if you bend the lead too close to the plastic it ruins the internal connection.

But we're getting into the minutia of it. With the LED lit and not examining it up very close these details in N scale just aren't that noticeable.


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