# Question About, and Thoughts on Lionel 2020 Big Book



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

DOES ANYONE KNOW if the Legacy B6sb is 1:48 scale? They don't say it is (and usually they say if it is) in this catalog, or, I looked, in previous iterations of it. 
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Comments

It is a big catalog, and impressive in its range of products and licensed products and themes line area 51 and the Disney things and all _Lots_ of products.

Prices are high. No surprise. Not so high that I would not pay for something i want, but not sure there is that much here I want. 

One exception to both the cost and "not much I want,": gotta have the LC+ 0-6-0 swticher. Gotta get that just so see all that operation and sound crammed into that size of loco. For only $249? Wow.

Nearly everything not LC+ or Legacy is LC - their new normal and entry level. 

I'd get the B6sb if its scale but I have a feeling it might not be.
Edit 15 min later: No matter, found a new PS3 model on e-bay that is scale. I've wanted a B6 for a long time. happy happy.

A Star Trek train? I'm a fan of the series and can't wait for the new movie. But no . . . Lionel, that's just wrong!

They covered GSs didn't they, all the way from GS1 to GS 6. I think they got some details wrong, but at the prices they ask, and given i have a nice "4" already, those details won't be my problem.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I believe the B6sb is scale. Its the K-Line engine that Lionel has done in the past at least once before.









Pete


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Did not see anything that I would need to preorder or really wanted. Down the road maybe the Coors Beer reefers if at a super good price. Will be safe until April when the MTH catalog hits the internet.

Bill


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I didn't look at prices. But I give them credit for trying to broaden their market. I don't really get that from mth. I do from time to time see bachmann rtr sets in larger chains but typically ho or n. They appear to sell slowly. But since I'm only sporadically at any given place ... For example hobby lobby near here.. I'm just going by Shel count that appears the same for weeks to me at least. Anyway Lionel, themes and all that could help.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have the earlier Legacy B6sb and it's certainly scale sized. We had a discussion about it and measured it and compared to the prototype. Also, even in the description, they call it scale. 

Pennsylvania LEGACY Scale B6sb 0-6-0 Steam Locomotive #5244

I can't imagine they used different molds having produced this just a few years ago, so I suspect the new one is scale sized as well.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I’m not a Lionel guy so there’s nothing in the catalog I’m interested in.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I downloaded the catalog, it's huge when you print it to disk. I didn't see anything that jumped out and called my name, so I'll be saving money this trip.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

The catalog is ENORMOUS -- not only in the number of pages, but also product SKU's. Nearly 3 dozen pages devoted to VisionLine products, which tells you VisionLine is now being beaten to death in terms of offerings. Back in the day of LP's and record players, when the album went bad the needle would skip over and over again. That's how I felt paging through all those VisionLine pages with GS-whatevers and reefer/stock sound cars. Just too much of the same thing that got too repetitive -- almost making me lose interest. And through all of that, no VisionLine tankers w/freightsounds AGAIN. As I mentioned over in another forum... if Lionel couldn't manage to re-issue the VisionLine Ethanol tanker 3-pack in THIS catalog, then we're likely never gonna see those puppies re-issued again. 

MSRP prices are insane... pushing $2000 for all those GS steamers, $180+/each for 21" ABS cars, same for 18" heavyweights, and even $80/each for basic traditional-line beer reefers that look like cheap plastic. Gosh, for a few bucks more, you're into Atlas-O territory for a full-scale, 40- or 36-foot reefer for stunning graphics. Get real, Lionel.

Not to be outdone, the traditional line is giga-enormous... with practically every big-name RR company represented by a boxed train set. And the breadth of licensed products is to die for this year. I can't help but wonder if one of Lionel's product manages I met a few years ago -- Meegan Unterwrecker -- is responsible for these terrific offerings. She is a breath of fresh air within Lionel's product management team, and her high energy and enthusiasm are infectious. It's been a couple of years since I've spoken with Meegan, but I wouldn't doubt she's behind this portion of Lionel's product line.

As I was saying the other day when a HUGE price-list leaked out onto the Internet, there is just way, way, WAY too much product here for a company that is coming off nearly 2 years of product quality hiccups. Confidence by buyers who typically pre-order Lionel high-end product has gotta be at an all-time low. And what does Lionel do? They publish a catalog which proves my theory that Lionel stateside is a HUGE marketing arm for its overseas factories that are now tasked with producing enormous amounts of toy trains. Whether the quality will be there is anybody's best guess. But I suspect many folks like myself will greatly reduce their pre-order habits to next to nothing.

Indeed, I will likely pre-order a few odds-and-ends like the American Freedom Train 2-pack add-ons, so I can complete the AFT train Lionel started 3 or 4 years ago. I "might" pre-order the Preamble Express train, simply because LOVE the patriotic themed trains... and THIS one has one heck of a pricing anomaly in favor of the buyer: namely an $800 MSRP that includes one powered E8 (typically $500 MSRP) plus 4 heavyweight passenger cars (typically pushing $200/each). So right there, an $800 MSRP for the set is basically giving you the E8 locomotive for free -- at least that's one way of thinking about it. It's very likely the best bang for your dollar in Lionel's high-end, scale product line. Still expensive mind you -- but a good price/performer given the all the other price-points. 

At the end of the day, I still might spend between $1,000-$2000 just for various miscellaneous goodies. But that's pretty much what this hobby has become nowadays. To buy stuff like I once did 15+ years ago would require a huge 6-figure income these days. And I'm not sure I wanna get on that rat race treadmill again. So I'll watch from the sidelines... and most certainly will wait out delivery of these products before making large purchases. Aside from a few specialty items, my days of pre-ordering Lionel high-end products are history. There's just too huge a gap between what's often delivered vs. what's conjured up in our minds with all the catalog excitement. 

So now that the catalog is officially released, it's time to sit back... let the street-prices settle... wait 'till later in 2020 when products hit the States... and maybe go on a shopping spree when we KNOW what's been delivered -- and perhaps even get a great deal in the process. With very few exceptions, that's my M-O these days.

David

P.S. It's still early, but I haven't heard of any dealers offering special-runs of products in THIS catalog. The Pat's Trains black bonnet Northern is actually from the 2019V2 catalog but just recently announced. For 2020 product however, there might just be too much product in the catalog itself for any one special-run concept to gain traction this time. We shall see.....


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Looking at the Boston & Maine passenger set. Single E8, milk car, baggage, combine and coach. MSRP $799, dealer $639. I was considering the EMD E8 from a few years ago, but this set appears to be a nice deal.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

Maybe the Blue Coal Hoppers apart from looking at an 0-6-0T is the only thing I really want. I would take a T-1 but wish 2102 was offered with just Reading on the Tender.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Reading the statements on numerous forums, it does not seem that Lionel hit a homerun with this catalog. A lot of comments stating that nothing is a must have for a pre-order but may purchase this or that once released. It will be interesting to see if any of the BTO will be cancelled due to lack of orders.

Bill


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think it depends on what they sell more of now -- collector/dedicated hobbyist or RTRs and the lionechief stuff. If it's the latter, I found all the themed and licensed products to be kinda cool. All that's missing practically is the ubiquitous star wars... I mean there's a Frozen themed train set -- I can't fault them for not trying.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I personally suffered overload from all the themed and licensed products.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

The latest Lionel catalog us BIGGER than the 1959 Sears Wish Book.

It appears that Lionel is planning for the future. The prices in this catalog are actually for the 2120 book, with 100 years of inflation already factored in.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I personally suffered overload from all the themed and licensed products.


You me both. It's crazy.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I personally suffered overload from all the themed and licensed products.


Oh wow, yes. That is getting really bad. that catalog is infested with far too many, and few of them seem done in a creative, quality way.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I personally suffered overload from all the themed and licensed products.


Wouldn't that be Lionel trying to expand their base?? Sure they're not for the hardcore model rr group, just the same as the typical family isn't spending $2k for a engine to go around the tree.


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## IAIS513 (Aug 20, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> Wouldn't that be Lionel trying to expand their base?? Sure they're not for the hardcore model rr group, just the same as the typical family isn't spending $2k for a engine to go around the tree.


Jeff I think you nailed it. I keep reading how this hobby is dying and what can be done to get more people interested. I think we really saw an effort from Lionel in this catalog. Ya, there are a ton of licensed and holiday products, that maybe for the more hardcore collectors and operators aren't to their liking. For someone new to the hobby or to their kids or grand kids these are exactly what they need to get started and stay in the hobby. I'm not a big fan of a lot of the licensed products but my boys (11 and 8) love batman from the 60's and love the batman boxcars. Guess what I'll be adding to the layout. If that is what it takes for at least one of them to continue enjoying the hobby as they get older, it's a small price to pay.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

I saw a few things I liked, I think the items are good but prices are a little high on some things. I think it's a really nice catalog though. I pre ordered the Strasburg set already. 

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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> ...and few of them seem done in a creative, quality way.


I disagree. I think most of them appear to be very well done!


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## vash44 (Jan 14, 2018)

Everything I run tends to be scale. However, I would be lying if I didn't say the Toy Story set caught my eye. That one could be a set that finds its way around the Christmas tree.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The LED Fastrack caught my eye, that would be cool around the Christmas Tree!


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I know I'm in BIG trouble. For the 1st time I actually pre-ordered something...


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Closing my eyes and pretending that there never were and never will be any quality issues with Lionel trains, the items below are what I like from the 2020 catalog. There are a few things I passed on from last year’s catalog that I will wait for reviews when delivered to decide. Even though I’m not one to complain about pricing, it has become restrictive for most Lionel purchases. 

Reading T-1 #2100 - I already have a MTH Proto 2 T-1, but I like the whistle steam. 

PRR B6sb 

NYC E8

Southern Pacific Trainmaster

Reading Heavyweight passenger cars (6) - I’ve been wanting a nice set of Reading heavyweight cars to go with my T-1. As they are new tooling I’m sure they’ll be nice. 

BNSF & Conrail 57’ Mechanical reefers

Blue Coal 2 bay hoper 3 pack - These will go nicely with my Weaver cars to make a longer Blue Coal unit train. 

Conrail & UP Rotary Gondola 4 packs - Need more rotary gondolas. 

Budweiser set or cars - We have the Department 56 Budweiser brewery with the accessory Clydesdale horses. This would be cool to have this set servicing the brewery. But since I’m not into the fantasy trains I may just get an add on box car or two in a siding. On the fence for this one. 

PRR, Bethlehem Steel & UP Ore car 6 car sets

Various Christmas cars - To add to my Christmas trains. Not sure which ones but I like the flat cars with Pup trailers. 

These are just what I like from the catalog. As I said, just dreaming there would be no quality issues. But the only definite preorder will be the Reading heavyweight cars. 

As usual future purchases may depend on what all you guys talk me into, or out of.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have the previous Legacy Reading T1, but it would be cool to pick up another one and double-head them.  I just can't swallow the price...


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

You're looking at some serious dollars there, Brian. I created a wishlist of goodies from this catalog that were essentially "add-ons" to existing trains or collections I already have on my roster... stuff like the AFT 2-packs, the flat cars with 20' trailers, a couple of the smoking mech reefers, the Preamble Express set, two FM's, and some Christmas Polar Express and North Pole Central offerings. No big-ticket steam locomotives though... just mostly these add-on type offerings. And cha-ching!!!! I tallied up over $5,000 in street pricing -- just like that. If I added in the Lionel 120th Anniversary passenger train, that quickly took the tally to over $8K!!! 

Sorry to say... I'm not in the market to spend those kinds of dollars on trains in one year -- never really was even when the prices were more reasonable. But it was an eye-opening exercise to see where the price of toy trains has gone. For that $5K spent, I could easily fit them ALL in the trunk of a mid-size sedan and still have room to spare. That harsh reality hit home with me big-time. And if I wanted to fill up my entire SUV cargo area, I might need to spend upwards of $40K-$50K.  Just blankin' inconceivable where this is all heading!!!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Well I did find one item that I will place an order for. The Area 51 Control Tower, it will go well added to the S&Y RR Space Center. So it looks like Lionel will get somewhere around $85 from me for this catalog. I have the original Lionel Area 51 steam set that came with a couple flying saucers and aliens from 15 years or so ago.

Bill


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I hear you, David! It’s unlikely I’ll attempt to order it all, the items I listed are just ones that I liked. Just the T-1 alone puts a big dent in my budget. The closest thing to a ‘must have’ would be the Reading coaches. Even those at $400 a pair are making me hesitant.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Traindiesel said:


> I hear you, David! It’s unlikely I’ll attempt to order it all, the items I listed are just ones that I liked. Just the T-1 alone puts a big dent in my budget. The closest thing to a ‘must have’ would be the Reading coaches. Even those at $400 a pair are making me hesitant.


Never mind spending money on more trains. Let's get started on that new train building. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

The extreme lack of prototype fallen flags and even current flags offerings is an interesting note on this catalog. In the last MTH catalog I ordered nearly $3000 (full retail) because MTh took care of me with Rock Island, Burlington Route, Milwaukee Road and U.P. stuff. Stuff that is new to me and won't come around for another few years if ever. 

It is a criticism of Lionel for me but for the market in general it is obvious to me and others they have thrown their lot in with 2 directions. 1. the extremely high end steam, and to a lesser extent - Diesel locomotives and 2. the kitschy cute starter crowd stuff which I suppose they are marketing to kids. 

What 8 year old cares at all about a fallen flag authentic is less detailed "Rail King" level of locomotive and rolling stock? Very, very few. 

But throw Batman or some other silly nonsense (to me) on there and maybe just maybe you get the hook in the mouth, so to speak. 

This catalog has very very little for me. None of my road names save a couple of Milwaukee Road items and cattle cars for Burlington for $400!! I don't need to hear the cattle moo for an additional $200 over tooling that has been out for decades. Make it an enticement? OK, but no way for $400 or whatever they cost. 

The true diesel locomotive offerings were decidedly weak, and I can only assume this is on purpose. Look, I don't need to see every diesel in my 4 chosen road names, but the offerings were very narrow and mostly the modern road names. No off stuff, smaller lines that have bit the dust. I am a Nickel Road fan, even though I would never buy that road name due to geographical issues, but they have died on the Lionel vine. 

Ditto Wabash, which did come into Iowa and for which I might buy a Wabash item. 

If you look at the road names offered by Lionel 5-8 years ago in any particular catalog I would say there were 35-50 road names offered either in rolling stock or locomotives in all price points, maybe more! 

Now it is much lower. With a decided bent toward the few modern road names left. Even so, MTH offered multi generational U.P. offerings in locomotives, maybe 4-5 in their last catalog, Lionel offers 1 (ES44c) 

Yet page after page has cartoon characters and licensed product which I am not interested in. I can't run 1960's freight and throw in a goofy cartoon character half way through. 

So - Lionel has made a strategic decision. They believe - as most of us do - there is saturation in the road names in the marketplace for passenger locomotives, freight locomotives, and plenty of rolling stock and have decided that their stuff, as well as MTH and primarily Atlas - has lasting value and buyers are thinking why pay new catalog prices for stuff that is not significantly different. 

Hence, railsounds and cameras (technology) which I am slow to buy at the prices Lionel is asking. And gimmicky licensed product. I love watching Polar Express each Christmas and may (may) eventually buy a Polar Express consist to run at Christmas but it is not a priority. 

What is a priority is adding new locomotives for my 4 -5 road names and unique rolling stock. I know railroads did not always run rolling stock with their names on the sides, so I am buying TTX and other rolling stock, so I could be a buyer for some of these. 

But in another 2 years, a "basic" scale correct rolling stock item through Lionel is going to be $109. Right now they are $89 to $99. This is a declining market for Lionel and I feel they will put a few items in this bucket just to placate tradionalists. But long gone are the days they put a catalog out like MTH, where several offerings allow a buyer to rack up $2000 to $3500 orders. 

Overall -disappointed. But like the dinosaur hunter in Jurassic Park who got fooled by the Velociraptor at the end, who said "well played", before dying - I think Lionel put a catalog out there with purpose. They are not interested in me, and they have received marketing input that the ONLY way to hook the younger kids is to appeal to 1. their favorite characters and 2. build on that with technology. 

This is arguably significantly different than MTH and I hope it does not hurt MTH, which continues to provide me, the traditionalist - with so many options I have to stop at $2900 per catalog. 

Because I have essentially $3400 on the hook with orders from MTH and Lionel (2019) and $1200 on account at the LHS, I won't be placing an order with this Lionel catalog. But I love the moxie and strategy by Lionel. 

Just my 2 cents worth


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Bryan, if you're interested, Mr. Muffin's is doing two different Wabash FM Train Master custom runs. They look pretty cool. I may buy one but as usual, no preorders.

https://mrmuffinstrains.com/collections/mrmuffins-trains-custom-run


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Bryan Moran said:


> The extreme lack ...


I read this nodding my head along the way.

Success in the childrens' toy market would be a big win even if it doesn't lead them to become "High Railers". There's always the next batch of kids 

One question I have is the relative company size of Lionel vis-a-vis MTH. A small(er) company can survive catering to a narrower high(er)-end market. A large(r) company can't do that profitably. It needs economies of scale/mass market to support the organization's "weight".

I think that shows in the relative offerings between the two (though I'm a newbie focusing on prewar tinplate with little knowledge of modern high rail or real life trains in general).


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Spence said:


> Never mind spending money on more trains. Let's get started on that new train building. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Spence, as they say in the corporate world, “That’s in a different budget category.” 

It’s still in the planning stages. I’m meeting with county officials next month to find out my limitations, if any. I already have a list of builders to interview once the financing is in place. I’m not going to do this cheaply. I want it to be comfortable and fun! 

In the meantime I’m waiting for my Mianne Benchwork to arrive to build a temporary layout in our living room. I’ll use it to run trains and test locomotives to make sure they’re operating perfectly before they go into the new building. My short term train buying is basically on hiatus until the Benchwork is built in the new building. If I wasn’t channeling funds for the Train Palace I’d probably be buying most of what I listed. Of course when the MTH catalog gets released and my visit to the York Meet could implode all of my restraint!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Low budget young families are potential buyers for all the Lionel cartoonish stuff. They are not going to drop upwards of a hundred bucks for an additional boxcar. But they may spend $20 for a Menards boxcar if they are aware of their existance.

Bill


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

seayakbill said:


> Low budget young families are potential buyers for all the Lionel cartoonish stuff. They are not going to drop upwards of a hundred bucks for an additional boxcar. But they may spend $20 for a Menards boxcar if they are aware of their existance.
> 
> Bill


Mostly I agree but there will be exceptions.

Skiing with my two sons thirty years ago, my 5 year-old lost a ski. The ski's brake failed and the ski was lost in the mountain's tundra.

At the mountain's ski shop I'm eyeing up a pair of $100 skis. He's going to outgrow them in a year or two anyway. Then he saw "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Skis". The original movie was all the rage at the time.

Was back on the mountain in 45 minutes $200 lighter.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> Bryan, if you're interested, Mr. Muffin's is doing two different Wabash FM Train Master custom runs. They look pretty cool. I may buy one but as usual, no preorders.
> 
> https://mrmuffinstrains.com/collections/mrmuffins-trains-custom-run


Thanks Beachhead, 

I'll check that out. Issue is, there are reduced options I think - from when I started in the hobby maybe 8 years ago. I would open up a catalog then and be amazed at all the road names.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

seayakbill said:


> Low budget young families are potential buyers for all the Lionel cartoonish stuff. They are not going to drop upwards of a hundred bucks for an additional boxcar. But they may spend $20 for a Menards boxcar if they are aware of their existance.
> 
> Bill


I hope this all leads to more interest in traditional road names and railroad history BUT I am not sure. I go in and look on my local Craigslist for Lionel and O Scale (all) and I am always overwhelmed by Thomas the Train crap (sorry). Parents buy TtTrain whether it's Lionel or some other stuff, run it until the kids get bored, then it goes on Craigslist. 

I think it is because of the age of the user, which in the case of TtT is what? 4 years old. That may be a consideration behind Lionel trying Batman and other "older" characters.


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## batstang2000 (Oct 26, 2015)

I sometimes feel like an outlier when it comes to discussing Lionel trains. I started buying and running them around 1987 or so and now have a 10'x12' permanent layout. 33 years later and I still gravitate towards the "starter sets" and licensed products. I have (as far as I know) most every Disney Lionel O Gauge loco, car and set made and will continue to add to that (though I will probably skip the Frozen one). I also collect Batman memorabilia and have bought the recent Batman offerings from Lionel also and will as long as they are offered. I run both conventional and LionChief (tried Bluetooth once but didn't like it) and really have no interest in Legacy, TMCC or other control system. I am a retired computer programmer and systems analyst, so I'm sure I could make it work, I just like the simplicity of the throttle on the transformer or the dial on the LC remote. Anyway, I'm having fun and hopefully will never put anyone down because they run or collect trains differently than I do.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

batstang2000 said:


> I sometimes feel like an outlier when it comes to discussing Lionel trains.


I suspect forums attract enthusiasts and folks who lean towards scale. No big whoop. Just do it like you do! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

batstang2000 said:


> . . . will never put anyone down because they run or collect trains differently than I do.


Absolutely!!! I really can't understand anyone who believes that this hobby has to be about any one way of doning it. I'm one of those folks who collects and runs mostly scale locos and rolling stock. I have friends that run only pre- and post-war Lionel or Marx, and I love their layouts and know they have just as much fun as I do.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

batstang2000 said:


> Anyway, I'm having fun and hopefully will never put anyone down because they run or collect trains differently than I do.


If I said anything that implies I'm putting you down for your tastes, I certainly didn't mean to! I'm with Lee, there are lots of ways to enjoy the toy train hobby, none of them bad.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

batstang2000 said:


> ... I am a retired computer programmer and systems analyst, so I'm sure I could make it work, I just like the simplicity of the throttle on the transformer or the dial on the LC remote.


+1. Too much like work to enjoy it.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Millstonemike said:


> +1. Too much like work to enjoy it.


I agree completely. Simplicity - otherwise, way too much like work.


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## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

This release was a very interesting one for me. None of the high end stuff caught my eye (even if my layout was able to run them) compared to previous catalogues where there was at least a few that I would drool over. I'm in an odd place with my layout where I want/can afford the higher end stuff but don't have the curve radius to support them. 

The Lionmaster Allegheny is a great step in the right direction but that particular engine doesn't really interest me. I do look forward to what future models might come out in that category. I would like to see some more smoke/water features added even if it hikes the price slightly

The themed stuff was really spectacular though! We preordered all of the available toy story stuff (my first ever preorder!) and the kids are really excited about it. While that was our only preorder we will most likely pick up the halloween set and some christmas items as well. We seemed to like individual items across Christmas sets but none on their own. Would be nice to be able to build your own Christmas set. Still great to see an increase in product and innovations like the light up boxcars with sound. 

Now I just hope there are no quality issues with my preorder.


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