# In or Out of the Pool????



## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

With the "official" release of the 2019 Lionel Catalog yesterday morning, it begs the question, are you jumping into the pool and ordering from this catalog, and if yes, just what. Or, have you decided to stay outside of the pool, have a refreshing drink, and watch from the sidelines. In this case, is there a particular reason you are not ordering, i.e. nothing that interests you or some other reason. Though most likely the MTF is not part of the mandatory research for Lionel, what is posted to this thread should interest them if nothing more than to get a pulse of what's going on. And what should also be important to them is the information posted here is not sugar coated, so they get a frank an honest assessment. This may be the only forum that provides a "real word" analysis. Can't hurt.

I think we wish Lionel well with this catalog and hope that they have solved the reported quality issues from 2018. A healthy Lionel is only good for all of us.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Possible pre-orders. I already have powered units for these guys.

unpowered Erie Mining

unpowered Apache Rail

powered Spokane Portland & Seattle B unit.

Bill


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

I'll start, I am taking a *pass* on the offerings is this catalog as the only item that interested me is the Gold Warbonnet set. The photos of the engine are in my opinion just awful with what appears to me to be gold paint not uniformly applied. I also don't like the fact that the engine and passenger cars are not sold separately as I have no interest in passenger cars without occupants.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

I am not pre-ordering but I am very interested in the NYC FT AA set. I will wait for them to actually arrive and if it looks like there aren't any major problems I will buy them.

I am not a fan of BTO and pre-ordering. Even when I was in N scale I wouldn't pre-order a locomotive. There is just too much uncertainty.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

No pre orders from me but will wait to see how the J3a Hudson comes out. Only one interests me and if they do it right I will get it.
If not, no big deal. I have enough Hudsons already.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

No pre orders, all the issues over the past year is keeping me on the side line. I'm hot on the Hudson but I can wait. I have four already


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

I'm in for a few items, but not anything huge...


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm out of the pool. 

Will wait until the UP Excursion cars arrive at dealers, get quality reports, make decision then. After being burned on the first round of Excursion cars, I don't care to repeat. 

If there was a locomotive I wanted, I'd wait also. Got burned by BTO twice, no more.

Until QC improves, I'm not interested.

I wish Lionel all the best & hope they address the issues.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Nuttin’ Honey.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> With the "official" release of the 2019 Lionel Catalog yesterday morning, it begs the question, are you jumping into the pool and ordering from this catalog, and if yes, just what. Or, have you decided to stay outside of the pool, have a refreshing drink, and watch from the sidelines. In this case, is there a particular reason you are not ordering, i.e. nothing that interests you or some other reason. Though most likely the MTF is not part of the mandatory research for Lionel, what is posted to this thread should interest them if nothing more than to get a pulse of what's going on. And what should also be important to them is the information posted here is not sugar coated, so they get a frank an honest assessment. This may be the only forum that provides a "real word" analysis. Can't hurt.
> 
> I think we wish Lionel well with this catalog and hope that they have solved the reported quality issues from 2018. A healthy Lionel is only good for all of us.


I'm out of the pool, since I go to the secondary market for NIB items and love it. 

Bryan, do you really think anyone from Lionel's brain trust bothers to read our threads and posts? If they were smart, they would. But, are they smart? Or do they just dream up stuff in their own minds they think will sell, then have it hastily built and rushed to market?


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I don't buy a lot of Lionel normally. I prefer MTH. I am not ordering anything from this catalog because:

Nothing jumps out to me as a must have.
Things that I'm interested in (eg. Looney Tunes cars) are way too expensive,
After my experience with the Mogul, I don't trust Lionel.
Reading about other member's experience with orders again, I don't trust Lionel.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

PTC hey its way to cold to go into a pool LOL. on a serious note no plans on buying anything from them.

now wouldn't it be hilarious if all the ordered dummies came with powered trucks!! sorry folks I just couldn't stop my brain telling fingers to type that line.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I am out of the pool.

Due to the last few years of bad quality, I will place no more orders with Lionel until I see a big improvement. 

We have seen upon delivery engines and cars with:

Toilet paper inside a new steam engine 

Mold lines across the top of boilers 

The wrong color being paint used in many cases 

Silver smoke boxes

Smudged paint 

Windows pushed in 

Bad smoke units, three blinks 

Stalling motors, two blinks 

Exposed visible wiring in sound car diners 

Broken couplers 

Broken wheel bearings 

Hatch’s that won’t open 

Bad boards 

Stripped screw heads 

Weird screw heads on the drivers of steam engines 

An absence of spare parts 

Poor design: Mogul and Crayola car 

Return to thumbtack couplers 

And more.

Lionel has yet to give any apologies or to have pledged to commit themselves to better quality...that tells me they either don’t get it, don’t care, or both. 


I would love to order a Lionel PRR J1A, but with all the problems above, why take a chance on getting a clinker?


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

I am out too.

The combination of ever increasing prices and meaningful quality issues has compounded to push me away from all Lionel products. Sad, but the sole way for any business to see the need for corrective action is by a slow down in sales as result of known issues. When we as community continue to feed the beast we can't be unhappy or upset when the beast continues to terrorize the village -- we're to blame after the first round.

Anyone remember the Cal Zephyr cars without the dome observation, followed by B,C,D,E,F,H,I...X, & Y errors, screw-ups, etc. It is more than we should be asked to bear, and for all those who newly entered the hobby to have a bad experience and now on to something else, or still dealing with trying to spend time with trains and their kids, we might be better off with Lionel joining Sears on the scrap heap of American companies who failed to meet customers needs.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Craignor said:


> I am out of the pool.
> 
> Due to the last few years of bad quality, I will place no more orders with Lionel until I see a big improvement.
> We have seen upon delivery engines and cars with:
> ...


*^^^THIS^^^*

I would add items not as described by catalogs!

All reasons for waiting to see what is delivered.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I only just dipped my toe in the Lionel pool a year or so ago. And only because of a great deal on something that will run on my DCS layout. I’m sure not going to dive in now. Besides all the recent QC issues, the dues for the Lionel swim club are too high for what you get in my book. The dues at Mike’s swim club are more reasonable. I have a few items pre-ordered from his 2019V1 catalog.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

There are some interesting things in this catalog, but I am done.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

My bathing suit is still in the drawer. Saw a few items that I'll keep an eye on, but nothing will be ordered, err pre-ordered.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

No. I don't pre-order Lionel products.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

*"Bryan, do you really think anyone from Lionel's brain trust bothers to read our threads and posts? If they were smart, they would. But, are they smart? Or do they just dream up stuff in their own minds they think will sell, then have it hastily built and rushed to market? 
__________________
Vern"*

If they were smart, they would listen, and listen good. It is possible that they read our threads and posts, but probably would never acknowledge it because of their financial relationship with the other guys. I always thought that ignoring us was pretty dumb as it is a free ride. They are not alone in this regard. Reading edited material designed to make you feel better serves no real purpose.

We do serve a very important voice in our hobby. If you want unfiltered truthful comment, we are it. Who knows, they make wake up to this fact someday, but don't hold your breath.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

*If they were smart, they would listen, and listen good. It is possible that they read our threads and posts*

IMHO, it's a bit of a double edged sword. On one hand they get a small window to see what the hobbyist is saying, doing or thinking.

On the other hand I would hope, strongly hope, they are to busy working to get things corrected.

If they are just awakening to the issues now, all is truly lost.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

I see your point, Jeff. But may I add to this that *any window* is better than none. A house or a room without a window is pretty dark and the last thing that they need now is any darkness.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

I am thinking of getting the Hudson J3A just because I can use my VL tender with the engine and get the smoke effects. I posed this question on the other site and DAVE from Lionel said they would match up and can be used. Here is his quote, "The J3a w/ the PT Tender is getting the VL Niagara tender, so it has the water scoop smoke effect. So yes, it will work w/ the VL Niagara tender."

The other thing that interests me is the Santa Fe Trackmobile, but we shall see on the price of this little gem.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I think some already stole many of their light bulbs, and I truly wish it wasn't that way.


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

I'm out. 


John


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I'll start, I am taking a *pass* on the offerings is this catalog as the only item that interested me is the Gold Warbonnet set. The photos of the engine are in my opinion just awful with what appears to me to be gold paint not uniformly applied. I also don't like the fact that the engine and passenger cars are not sold separately as I have no interest in passenger cars without occupants.


As others have said, I don't think you can take this picture at face value. It's clearly photoshopped and not a true photo. When you zoom in you can clearly tell that it's been altered. It is concerning that Lionel didn't put in the time to at least make THIS look good. But I noticed a spelling or grammar error in the catalog last night too, so their editing leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree that you have every right to be skeptical, but I have faith that their gold will turn out looking great. I'm wondering if they just didn't have the test run of the Gold Bonnet in time for the catalog printing so they doctored a Red or Yellow bonnet in photoshop.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Maybe this should be restarted as a forum poll.


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## Mooner (Jun 20, 2018)

I'm in for one of the Berkshire LC+ 2.0 and a freight sounds boxcar.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Great thread, Brian! I guess it should come as no surprise that I'm sticking to my original plans to not pre-order much this year. Nothing from this catalog is a "must-have" from a pre-order perspective, but two items are on my radar screen for evaluation AFTER Lionel delivers them: the NYC Hudson J3a, and the Bipolar State Set.

If I were forced to choose only one, I'd go for the Hudson J3a. But I'm not pre-ordering one, because I have ZERO faith that Lionel's factory will build them to the images we're seeing in the catalog. So why fret over one SKU over the other at this point if they might not make them the way they're currently illustrated anyway?  I was surprised (unpleasantly so) with driver-configurations on the Empire State Express Hudson a few years ago, so why risk letting that happen again with the J3a. Dealers will likely have plenty of these locomotives, so we'll cross that bridge when they arrive Stateside. And if dealers don't have extra stock, that's fine too. Life will go on. 

The downside to the State Set is it appears to be based on the recently released 18" heavyweight passenger cars, which were a big disappointment for me. So I have a difficult time setting myself up for more disappointment in that regard. Let's just say they didn't exactly scream of quality, and you could see it as well as feel it. In years past, I'd pre-order something like this State Set in a heartbeat. But those days are history. So I'll see what Lionel actually delivers, and make a decision from there. Again, if my not pre-ordering works against Lionel actually making the product, then it was simply not meant to be. But the time is WAY overdue for Lionel to step up to the plate and put its money where its mouth is... and not expect consumers to do that for them. Their BTO model is broke, and only they can fix it.

I like the concept of the Santa Fe Gold Bonnet train, but I've already talked to Pat's Trains about the MTH offering. So we'll see how that goes. Truth be told, I was unimpressed with Lionel's approach to their recent Santa Fe F3's steel plate-finish in traditional war bonnet colors. So why should I gamble for more disappointment this time around? (Are we sensing a pattern here?) I already know MTH's steel plate-finish is miles above Lionel's, so I'm going with what I know will be a product with plenty of WOW factor! 

To a large degree, this catalog makes me feel very much like I did when I finally cured myself of Atlas-O's "reefer madness" many years ago. There's quite a sense of freedom knowing that I'll be sitting on the sidelines for much of this year. A few goodies will make their way into my hands from time to time... yes. But no huge pre-order commitment from me for this catalog. Lionel has lost that degree of freedom in my mind, and only the good Lord knows what it will take for them to re-earn that confidence. But the way I see things unfolding, there's just too much in the way of product offerings in the catalog's 250+ pages. And after what we observed in 2018, my gut feel is telling me that 2019 is gonna be more of the same -- if not even moreso: namely, Lionel's factories rushing to get too much stuff out the door with little or no care about quality craftsmanship.  Who needs THAT?

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

You have to wonder is 2019 the year all of Lionel's QC problems finally hit the bottom line? We keep hearing how 2018 was a banner year for sales. Will the consumer finally have had enough???


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2019)

When is Catalog a Catalog? Not these days.

A Catalog is supposed to be a book of things available for sale at your local hobby shop. I don’t think any of that stuff is at my local hobby shop.

All I see is a book of things that Lionel is giving serious consideration to making. Twenty percent of it will never see the light of day. 

So No, I’m not going to pre-order anything. Why should I commit to buy something that Lionel hasn’t committed to make. When any of that stuff does get made, then I’ll look at it in person and make my decision at that time. Not before.


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## Enon49 (Mar 21, 2018)

*The Shallow End*

I am going to stay in the shallow end of the pool

From the Christmas set, "Winter Wonderland" I will buy the Winter Wonderland tank car when it becomes available 

I have all of Lionel's Christmas tank cars

And maybe the Pere Marquette Berkshire 1225 - and that is a maybe with a touch of probably not

MrToad


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

For me it's mostly situational. Everybody is here is at different stages and right now I need to focus on the layout NOT buying more rolling stock and diesels. 

I went all in with MTH last year and have 2 outstanding orders that are trickling in, as planned. 

Also, I like a REAL catalog so have not been into the LHS to get one, as opposed to looking on line. IF they have Rock Island items that I feel won't be available in a few product cycles, sadly, I will probably put in an order. Especially since I won't be in a rush and want to make sure it is ordered. 

I am in a waiting pattern, as I have not run many of my locomotives successfully - ever, so I may have a dud on the shelf. 

Based on everyone's comments here, I am proceeding cautiously and likely won't buy a Legacy, I run conventional. 

Lionel reads all forums. I believe all the manufacturers and suppliers do. For instance, I suspect Menards read the negative comments recently posted, but they won't comment either. These are just dreams of the consumers, that we can jump through the wall and reach the stakeholders directly, but it seldom happens.


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

I am a train obsessed individual who just turned 70. How many trains do I have left? So, in light of the balance between becoming fossilized without the latest J3a or buying the J3a and HOPING someone in China gives a damn when they pick up the latest screwdriver and before a Chinese Admiral decides it is time to cross the Strait and take Taiwan, I am going to order (Ayyyyyyy) a J3a. I have NO Hudson "Won't power". 

Please pray for me


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Scrapiron Scher said:


> I am a train obsessed individual who just turned 70. How many trains do I have left? So, in light of the balance between becoming fossilized without the latest J3a or buying the J3a and HOPING someone in China gives a damn when they pick up the latest screwdriver and before a Chinese Admiral decides it is time to cross the Strait and take Taiwan, I am going to order (Ayyyyyyy) a J3a. I have NO Hudson "Won't power".
> 
> Please pray for me


Scher, the way forward in acquiring the locomotives and rolling stock you want and need is to learn the phrase, "Does MTH make one, too?"


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

Lee,

I am lucky if DCS works on my layout. It usually does, but Lionel sound is the best to my ears. I have quite a few MTH locos and they are gorgeous. They usually run very well. The sound, to me, is Ricky Ricardo with maracas.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I'm out of the pool. I'll just watch and see what happens.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Scrapiron Scher said:


> Lionel sound is the best to my ears. I have quite a few MTH locos and they are gorgeous. They usually run very well. The sound, to me, is Ricky Ricardo with maracas.


Well put! I too prefer the Lionel sound packages, but I've heard some reviews where MTH is stepping up their game.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No to any pre-orders from the new Lionel Catalog. I may buy something, but it'll be after I see it and get some feedback about issues. They need to get their act together before I'll be back in the pool.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2019)

It is a very tempting catalog!

View attachment 482350


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2019)

That is funny, Emile.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Very nice catalog, especially if you like N and W which defines our layout. Normally we would be deeply into discussion about which items to choose and would commit to $3,000 plus.

Instead, we are in discussion over the eight psssenger cars in an unopened box ten feet away that the dealer supposedly repaired and sent back to us after we returned them and said that we absolutely did not want them. A call to the dealer resulted in a promise but no action. That was a week ago.

Tomorrow we send a letter to the dealer along with the returned cars and a second letter to Master Card advising them of the situation and that we want the charge removed. No more purchases from the dealer that we first purchased from about 1985.

We are out. Maybe the company can do business in this manner and do well. The value of our returns and lost purchases is close to $5,000 in 2019. Too much of this can add up in a hurry.

We prefer not to do business in this manner. It is not fun, does not build positive relationships, and is basically a last resort strategy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sorry Emile, I don't want a bite of that apple!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Bill Webb said:


> .....
> 
> Tomorrow we send a letter to the dealer along with the returned cars and a second letter to Master Card advising them of the situation and that we want the charge removed. No more purchases from the dealer that we first purchased from about 1985.
> 
> We prefer not to do business in this manner. It is not fun, does not build positive relationships, and is basically a last resort strategy.....


This & a previous, different post, show dealers are feeling the pain. 

I sure don’t envy Lionel dealers right now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dealers will have to feel the pain along with the rest of us if we're ever going to get the attention of Lionel's top management.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

The new N&W J's with modern excursion era details for 611 and whistle steam are really tempting me, but I think I'll be happy with my upgraded TMCC model for awhile. Perhaps down the road I'll find a deal on one, but for now I think I'll hold back. The Lionel N&W tool car is about the only thing I'll actually consider ordering, simply because the MTH one I currently have has the right paint job but doesn't really look as close to the real car.


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## Hasek23 (Dec 25, 2018)

I do like their NKP Berk however MTH's would be the one chosen. The one thing I didn't see in reading through the posts was anyone's concern if Chief +2 will roll out bug free. If I were considering pre-ordering, that would be one pressing concern for me.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Dealers will have to feel the pain along with the rest of us if we're ever going to get the attention of Lionel's top management.


Exactly!


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

I am on the edge with preordering anything. I am not interested in any Engines from this catalog. I am interested in a couple boxcars...PS-1 Boxcar with freight sounds and Southern Made in a USA Boxcar. 

Usually Charles Ro gives preorder discounts on engines but usually the price is the same for rolling stock/passenger cars when they hit the shelves. However, somethings sell out quickly so it's a gamble if you wait to see if they are problem free. 

The problem in preordering one or two pieces of rolling stock is you don't ever know when they will arrive hence most of the time you pay for shipping for each item. I still have 1 made in USA boxcar on order from Volume 1 2018 Catalog which I thought would ship with 2 other made in USA boxcars that I preordered from the same series last year. All 3 where suppose to ship at the same time but the last one in the series is now not scheduled to ship until late this summer which makes no sense why Lionel delayed on making one of the boxcars in the series. 

I also have 1 engine on preorder with Charles Ro too from Volume 2 2018 Catalog. I was wanting this engine for many years and was interested in getting the best price for it. I took gamble and preordered it rather than wait and pay more when it is shipped by Lionel. I also have 2 heavyweight passenger cars on preorder from the last catalog with Charles Ro, but after hearing about all the complaints with the recent delivered heavyweight passenger cars, I have been on the edge in trying decide what I should do with my preorder with those. My preorder with Charlie Ro dose not concern me as I know he will stand behind it if there problems but the hassles of returning defective items is no fun! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

kstrains said:


> I am on the edge with preordering anything. I am not interested in any Engines from this catalog. I am interested in a couple boxcars...PS-1 Boxcar with freight sounds and Southern Made in a USA Boxcar.
> 
> Usually Charles Ro gives preorder discounts on engines but usually the price is the same for rolling stock/passenger cars when they hit the shelves. However, somethings sell out quickly so it's a gamble if you wait to see if they are problem free.
> 
> ...


What you're describing is quite normal these days (unfortunately). If you're only interested in a couple of box cars from the new catalog, I'd pick those up when they ship -- especially if they're not BTO items. Enough dealers carry that stuff in their inventory. Or if you REALLY want them, then place the pre-order and you'll receive them when the dealer gets them.

As for the method of the madness when Lionel only manufacturers "some" cars in a series... I wouldn't waste my time trying to decipher the why's and wherefore's.  A couple of years ago, they offered 4 Coca Cola boxcars with 1950's retro-style art design. 3 of the 4 were made, and then the 4th was in limbo for months. Nobody knew why. All of these were "Made In The USA", so China wasn't the problem. Apparently, Lionel's contractor for the Made In The USA boxcars encounters problems with its paint machine more often than not.  Schedules get backed up, and then the factory randomly just drops certain paint-schemes. So that 4th Coca Cola boxcar never saw the light of day -- but there was never an official announcement about it to consumers -- just a note on my Charles Ro invoices across multiple shipments indicating that last Coca Cola boxcar was cancelled -- almost 18 months later!!!. 

That's just the way it is. We just never know what's going on behind the scenes... or we just never get the straight scoop.

David


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2019)

Hasek23 said:


> I do like their NKP Berk however MTH's would be the one chosen. The one thing I didn't see in reading through the posts was anyone's concern if Chief +2 will roll out bug free. If I were considering pre-ordering, that would be one pressing concern for me.


I have 5 LC+ engines and all have been problem free. I'm very interested in the LC+ 2.0 NYC FT AA but will wait for them to actually arrive before making a decision on them. LC+ 2.0 isn't a BTO product so there is no need to pre-order. 

I have the LC+ NKP Berkshire with Bluetooth from last year. It's not 2.0. I love the engine and run it a lot. The new 2.0 version should have better sound and other enhanced features.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

If I can run LC+2.0 w/Legacy, and it appears I can, I may give one of those a spin. From all that I've read it appears the LC engines, specifically steam, have escaped some of the issues plaguing some of the other products.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Actually, I'm rethinking a bit. More on this later, after I have re-thought.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Millstonemike said:


> Maybe this should be restarted as a forum poll.


Agreed, it would make for a faster rea to get results and save bandwidth for this forum's owners.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2019)

*"Agreed, it would make for a faster rea to get results and save bandwidth for this forum's owner"*

This thread sure has received a lot of attention as it has a very timely subject. It does make sense that a poll would have worked.

If you boil it all down at this point, I think most have taken the 2019 Lionel Catalog this way:

View attachment 482474


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

TheBigCrabCake said:


> When is Catalog a Catalog? Not these days.
> 
> A Catalog is supposed to be a book of things available for sale at your local hobby shop. I don’t think any of that stuff is at my local hobby shop.
> 
> All I see is a book of things that Lionel is giving serious consideration to making. Twenty percent of it will never see the light of day.


I posted about my misunderstanding of what a catalog meant about 2 months ago. I thought if I placed an order (in this case MTH) that it would roll in in about 1-3 months. 

It took much longer. I would think that to capture the instant gotta have it mentality of seeing something in a catalog they would have some of the stock ready.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

C'mon Bryan, isn't waiting weeks, months sometimes years much more exciting!


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm a buyer, because there is an IOWA INTERSTATE locomotive on page 34. It's Legacy, which I don't need since I will run conventional, but I won't have an opportunity to get such a specific Granger name in the next 10-15 years. 

That's how I judge purchases. Can I get it in the secondary market? The U.P. ES44AC's on page 35 are available on ebay all day long. (Or similar post war Diesels) 

After that the pickin's are slim. The GP35's for $500 are yawners. Why pay $500 for a shorter GP35, except you get Legacy which I don't need. 

The U.P. ET44AC on page 82-83 for $400 retail does not look like a bad one, but I have no reason to get it right now. 

I circled the Milwaukee Road caboose which I see has Cupolacam for $129. But again, it might be a 6 month from now decision. 

I like the covered hoppers on page 53 but NO WAY at $100 each!!!! What is Lionel thinking? You can get 5 cars from MENARDS for $100. That's a non starter at $100 each. 

I think the Freightsounds offerings on page 51 are what the future holds for box cars and similar rolling stock. Here you have a separator, if the quality is good. A new box car or rolling stock like on page 53 should not cost $100 but if you add Railsounds I can see some hobbyists buying those. I will, eventually. 

There is a lot of gimmicky stuff in there. But classic locomotives and rolling stock are in short supply.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Jeff T said:


> C'mon Bryan, isn't waiting weeks, months sometimes years much more exciting!


I know. Crazy. I base my catalog concept on the classic catalogs of by-gone years. Sears, etc.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2019)

Jeff T said:


> C'mon Bryan, isn't waiting weeks, months sometimes years much more exciting!


Isn't it nice to order something, then wait so long that you forgot you ordered it, until one day you get an automatic charge on your credit card and you get the thrill of trying to remember what the heck you ordered and when?

It's a great business model.

Emile


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Yeah. Menards is so messed up. They announce it. You order it. They ship it. Crazy!


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## Hasek23 (Dec 25, 2018)

Country Joe said:


> I have 5 LC+ engines and all have been problem free. I'm very interested in the LC+ 2.0 NYC FT AA but will wait for them to actually arrive before making a decision on them. LC+ 2.0 isn't a BTO product so there is no need to pre-order.
> 
> I have the LC+ NKP Berkshire with Bluetooth from last year. It's not 2.0. I love the engine and run it a lot. The new 2.0 version should have better sound and other enhanced features.


I do like the detail on the Lionel better than the MTH. 

The 765 is pretty impressive, we rode it on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad a few years back.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> What you're describing is quite normal these days (unfortunately). If you're only interested in a couple of box cars from the new catalog, I'd pick those up when they ship -- especially if they're not BTO items. Enough dealers carry that stuff in their inventory. Or if you REALLY want them, then place the pre-order and you'll receive them when the dealer gets them.
> 
> As for the method of the madness when Lionel only manufacturers "some" cars in a series... I wouldn't waste my time trying to decipher the why's and wherefore's.  A couple of years ago, they offered 4 Coca Cola boxcars with 1950's retro-style art design. 3 of the 4 were made, and then the 4th was in limbo for months. Nobody knew why. All of these were "Made In The USA", so China wasn't the problem. Apparently, Lionel's contractor for the Made In The USA boxcars encounters problems with its paint machine more often than not.  Schedules get backed up, and then the factory randomly just drops certain paint-schemes. So that 4th Coca Cola boxcar never saw the light of day -- but there was never an official announcement about it to consumers -- just a note on my Charles Ro invoices across multiple shipments indicating that last Coca Cola boxcar was cancelled -- almost 18 months later!!!.
> 
> ...



David,
You are correct in holding off on preorder. There is no real price incentive to preorder a couple boxcars since there is no discount with rolling stock for a preorder or when they are available on the shelves at least with Charles Ro. Knowing Lionel it could be a couple years before you see them! 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

kstrains said:


> David,
> You are correct in holding off on preorder. There is no real price incentive to preorder a couple boxcars since there is no discount with rolling stock for a preorder or when they are available on the shelves at least with Charles Ro. Knowing Lionel it could be a couple years before you see them!


I asked one of the Orange Hall dealers about that last October in York. I point blank asked him:What was my incentive to pre-ordering rolling stock. His response was so that I don't miss the opportunity to BUY one. I disagreed and told him that it's his responsibility to maintain adequate stock levels, otherwise HE will be the one missing the opportunity to SELL one. 

Emile


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

*"His response was so that I don't miss the opportunity to BUY one"*

Lionel has had it "it's" way for a long time. They have had the luxury of terrific support from their many long term customers. With all of the recent quality issues, that appears to have changed dramatically. 

When the bean counters see the results from the new catalog in terms of pre-orders, they may get a serious wake-up call. Lionel, like MTH & Atlas, rely heavily on dealers supporting them and with what David and others have told us, that may now also be a big issue for them. Dealers who have been inundated with service returns may be taking a very dim view of this. Time is money for them and the more time they spend repairing defective items, the less time they have for selling.

It will be interesting to see how all of this shakes out in 2019.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Lionel has had it "it's" way for a long time. They have had the luxury of terrific support from their many long term customers. With all of the recent quality issues, that appears to have changed dramatically...It will be interesting to see how all of this shakes out in 2019.


I couldn't agree more. The "Tail has been wagging the Dog" for too long now. It's time for a change.

Emile


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## Patapsco Valley RR (Feb 23, 2016)

I am out for this one. I prefer to see it in person or read about the on-line reviews before I make a purchase from Lionel.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Interesting comment from someone today who is not in the hobby.

Person saw the catalog on my desk and started paging through. Wow, that's allot of stuff. What are you picking up.

I said nothing it has to be built...

Reply, who puts out a catalog of things you can't buy...


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## hokie71 (Jun 9, 2013)

I am definitely in. I usually buy a loco and a few cars but this year I plan to go for two locos, even though limited shelf space. I must say that I regret whatever experiences others have had but I have zero complaints about the way Lionel and the hobby shops I purchase from have handled any issues over the years. I hope for our hobby that there are many hobbyists like me.


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## sg3 (Dec 19, 2015)

Definitely the P.E. offerings. Also thinking about the NYC FTs. Need another one for my set.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2019)

sg3 said:


> Definitely the P.E. offerings.


Me too, probably. PE offerings are always hard to pass up!

Emile


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## sg3 (Dec 19, 2015)

I'm even interested in the 2.0 P.E. Berkshire. The ARR camera caboose is also on my list.


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## hokie71 (Jun 9, 2013)

I went for a camera caboose too. Looking forward to a ton of fun with that. I guess lionel is "having its way" with those of us enjoying the new catalog.
One thought for those who don't understand the BTO supply chain model, please do some reading on the idea of customer "pull" contrasted to production "push." Just sayin. ..It is a good concept and makes business sense.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

hokie71 said:


> ....
> One thought for those who don't understand the BTO supply chain model, please do some reading on the idea of customer "pull" contrasted to production "push." Just sayin. ..It is a good concept and makes business sense.


Just to keep the playing field level.... Lionel needs to understand the BTO supply chain model too. For it to work as they intended, they need to build confidence in the consumer base so that when we pre-order a product, the product delivered is actually the one that was illustrated in the catalog -- no variance of paint schemes, and no departure from announced features like road-name specific details and locomotive drive-wheel configurations.

After 3 years of Lionel's venture into the BTO arena, they've had a mixed track record of building to the catalog's illustrations. When they're on track, they usually hit a grand slam. But when they miss the mark, they've missed it big -- which is giving folks a hesitancy to pre-order big-ticket items this time around. So we shall see what 2019 brings us. 

David


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I also ordered the Santa Fe 60' RPO car, in addition to the REA 60' car and the Lionmaster Big Boy. They claim the SF RPO new and the photo looks detailed and with it. Hope so.


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## hokie71 (Jun 9, 2013)

David, Good point, and we agree, no production system works if the product is not worth buying for the customer. Funny how this situation is a bit of the famous conundrum.... which comes first the chicken or the egg? People don't buy, BTO does not work, product not bought or made, no opportunity to evaluate quality, etc. 2019 will indeed be interesting to watch.


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## mauka (Jul 15, 2013)

I’ve been sitting on the O Gauge sidelines for the last 7 years due to lack of room for a layout. I dabbled in N Scale and have a modest collection of Kato track and passenger trains, including some very cool Shinkansen. 

We are moving in August where there will be room for a small layout, so O Gauge is back in play! After packing the trains I already have and shipping them arcoss the Pacific, I realized that I don’t need anymore trains - but the conventional Lionel Lines Alco 2021 set on page 127 is calling to me. 

I have TMCC, DCS, Legacy, and LionChief+ still packed away, and fear some or most will not work after 7 years in storage. Conventional should be a safe bet.

All the stories about BTO that never ships, and quality problems out of the box have convinced me not to pre-order. The Alco set is in stock at Charles Ro, so all I have to do is stretch my retirement train budget to cover the Meannie Benchwork I want, and the Alco set.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

mauka said:


> I’ve been sitting on the O Gauge sidelines for the last 7 years due to lack of room for a layout. I dabbled in N Scale and have a modest collection of Kato track and passenger trains, including some very cool Shinkansen.
> 
> We are moving in August where there will be room for a small layout, so O Gauge is back in play! After packing the trains I already have and shipping them arcoss the Pacific, I realized that I don’t need anymore trains - but the conventional Lionel Lines Alco 2021 set on page 127 is calling to me.
> 
> ...


If you had them stored away properly there's no reason why they shouldn't work. If you have MTH engines you need to put in a new battery. After seven years even conventional can have problems if not stored property


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> I also ordered the Santa Fe 60' RPO car, in addition to the REA 60' car and the Lionmaster Big Boy. They claim the SF RPO new and the photo looks detailed and with it. Hope so.


FYI. These are the old Weaver cars made exactly like Weaver made them. I posted my SP RPO in the "what did you add to your roster thread". Mine did come without cosmetic issues though I had to play with the trucks to get it to roll free and with the couplers so they would stay closed. Some dealers like Public Delivery Track still have some Weaver 60' cars.










Pete


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## mauka (Jul 15, 2013)

DennyM said:


> If you had them stored away properly there's no reason why they shouldn't work. If you have MTH engines you need to put in a new battery. After seven years even conventional can have problems if not stored property


Aloha Denny - I’m actually an optimistic, hope for the best - prepare for the worst kind of guy. Trains were packed in original boxes and many of the individual boxes wrapped in stretch plastic, and stored indoors. 

I unwrapped a few items two years ago for a Christmas layout. One of my favorites, a MTH Alaska ABA F3 set suffered cast metal rot and all three chassis were warpped and cracked. When I removed the shells the chassis crumbled into small pieces. MTH sent replacements, which is great out of warranty customer service!

https://www.modeltrainforum.com/picture.php?albumid=545&pictureid=17404

Alan


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2019)

Alan, our train equipment was stored for three years, and during the winter, there were some very cold temperatures. Being in storage, there was a gradual change from cold to warm based upon seasonal temperatures.

We had zero problems when the trains got back into service.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> FYI. These are the old Weaver cars made exactly like Weaver made them. ....


I purchased one of these RPO's for my Pennsy heavyweight train late in December last year -- the one with the olive green trucks and underframe. And the detail level on the outside is very nice. Unfortunately, the interior is barren and unfinished -- which becomes noticeable if you look inside the windows at eye level. I wasn't expecting to see postal employees and postal equipment.  But I was at least hoping to see a solid plastic floor with square benches like MTH includes in their RPO's. Perhaps this is something Lionel will address going forward, but I'm not holding my breath.

I also experienced problem couplers that would open at inopportune times, which seems to be a big problem with Lionel's passenger train couplers lately -- nothing a black plastic wire tie can't fix, but it's an annoyance nonetheless since it renders the coupler useless for switching maneuvers. Yet another reason I've sworn off Lionel passenger train purchases this year. MTH is now my "go-to" passenger train supplier, with a VERY occasional splurge into GGD/Sunset territory. I have GGD's El Capitan and Great Northern's Empire Builder passenger trains -- which I figure will hold me for a very long time. They are wonderful, but my wallet could never get into the rhythm of me buying one or two of GGD passenger trains every year.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The barren interiors are made more obvious by the high intensity LED lighting. Better if the LEDs were toned down with some yellow paint.
I found one of the problems with the couplers are the armatures are made of die cast steel vs spring temper that Weaver used. I drilled out the thumb tack to better improve appearance and reduce the weight which pulls down on the armature with every bump. I have since replaced the two inch couplers with 1 3/4" for closer coupling.
I would have get a second car to demonstrate the effect. Right now this car leads my Lionel SP streamliners which couple in the next zip code so its hard to tell.
Anyone considering these cars should also look at the Atlas Trainman cars. About the same in detail they have better trucks.
I used to think the Atlas cars were overpriced but today they seem like a bargain at almost half of what Lionel lists the Weaver cars for.

Pete


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Deleted


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Shhhh! (I peeed in the pool):laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Oldnewchoo (Aug 31, 2018)

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

But yeah...I'm gonna pass this year. I'll just go to the store and "hands on" everything...


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