# Lionel 1681E Tinplate - Peep / Strip Show



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi guys,

Right up front, I have to state that Jim / Stillakid has inspired me to (hopefully) tackle this project. He recently executed a beautiful restoration job on a Marx tinplate 391 loco. As I peeked over his shoulder, I got the tinplate bug, and have just picked up this Lionel 1681E tinplate loco and tender, circa 1934. It needs a little t.l.c., so I plan on diving in. If my fix-it job turns out OK, I'll offer a big "tip 'o the hat" thank you to Jim. However ... if I screw things up big time (entirely possible!), he might soon here a little "TJ wrath"!

Condition -- The Bad News -- paint is dinged and chipped in several places, especially the red. Some oxidation / wear to the chrome on the shiny metal pieces. A little splitting of the tin on the front of the tender.

Condition -- The Good News -- almost no rust. Metal tabs all OK. Engine and E-unit both run. Engine needs a full tuneup, but servicable.

What I Hope / Plan to Do -- I'm jumping into this primarily as a self-education project. I'm intrigued about painting skills, and will likely do a full paint strip to bare metal (one exception, explained below), and then reprime and respray in gloss. I'll have to remove and reassemble all of the tabs and little pieces, but I think that's all doable, with no huge problems.

I've posted below a pic of Jim's Marx redo. I love -- LOVE -- his black/red two-tone. I'll stick with black/red on this Lionel, however ...

I'm thinking seriously about painting only the round boiler and boiler front black, and then the cab, frame, front pistons, and cowcatcher all red ... echoing Jim's look. I kinda like the "old toy" feel of that. What do you all think???

I NEED YOUR OPINION ON MY NEW PAINT SCHEME IDEA, please!

The tender paint has the most chips / dings. When I looked at this on ebay, I was hoping (naively) that the "red name region" on the tender was a separate, removable insert. Not the case ... it's all one with the tender shell, with lithographed "Lionel Lines" lettering on a red field. So ...

I'm hoping that I can carefully strip and/or sand/prime the black area around this red field, but tape off and leave the red and letters intact. I.e., repaint the black, but not the lettering. We'll see.

CHOICE OF PAINT MFR TYPE --

RichT here has touted the benefits of the thin/sandable Rustoleum primer. I'll go ahead and use that as a base.

For a gloss top coat, I was thinking (naively) about using Krylon ... in my limited experience, it's a bit more durable than Rustoleum top coats. But maybe I'm wrong ... SET ME STRAIGHT HERE ... WHAT TOPCOAT PAINT TYPE WOULD YOU USE?

More info to follow as the project explodes ...

TJ

My Lionel 1681E, as found:




































For comparison, here's Jim's Marx redo ... I like this black/red scheme and transition:









For comparison, here's another Lionel 1681E in ALL RED, as produced in 1935:










UPDATE --

Quick computer cut-n-paste paint ideas ...

Red cab and roof:









Red cab, but black roof:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

AWWW! You have a Lionel JR. 

The paint sounds OK. You will get plenty of tab practice. I use blue tape to mask. That will be needed for the tender. I see no problem with saving the lettering on the tender. The red does need to be done on the engine. Have fun!


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks for the mention.... I feel honored.

Kylon is good stuff.... and it dries fast..... 

The Red/Black you spoke of sounds like it will be really nice... Masking out the lettering should do the trick.... Like T-main said.. the 3m Blue painters tape will come off clean without lifting off the letters. 

Maybe even just mask an area slightly bigger then the letters and then you can paint the inset area red... remove the masking then hand paint a gold boarder around the seam of the old an new red paints to make it look like a little plaque.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Rich,

Thanks for the thumbs-up on Krylon. I think I'll give them a shot.

You must have had a bird chirping my thoughts outside your window. My wife has one of those Pilot fine-tip gold paint pen markers. I was thinking of using it to carefully dab on the (painted only) rivets that surround the tender letter area, and maybe highlight the bumpy rivets on the loco. If I can do that with a steady hand, I might try your idea to create a gold border/transition between the red and black in way of the tender letter region. That would look slick if I can pull it off.

Thanks very much for your great advice in this and many other threads!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, I can only hope that the "basket case" I have coming, turns out as nicely as your engine/tender


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Jim,

I haven't done anything yet ... those are simply quick-n-dirty PHOTOSHOP paint scheme ideas. I have a long road ahead with this project ... a LONG road 

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, "Long" road trips are fun!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Point of No Return ...*

Quick update ...

Loco and tender all disassembled ... I crossed the point of no return!

Little metal tabs all good. Metal throughout generall in good shape. I'm proceeding with strip to bare metal.

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, I can'y wait to see how cool you make her! All your ideas would work, so the skys the limit!


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Excellent! I love these "in progress" threads:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Quick update ...
> 
> Loco and tender all disassembled ... I crossed the point of no return!
> 
> ...





Looking stripped all right.

From the picture it looks like you got all the parts,

All except the engine?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Big Ed,

I have the engine, as shown in the pics near the top of this thread. It runs, but needs a decent cleaning/lube job. Also, I'm sure that someone had replaced the shiny brass gear between the two drive wheels. Unfortunately, their replacement appears to be a touch smaller diameter than the original, such that there's a wee bit of slop between the motor's small-diameter gear, "this" gear, and the gears on the wheels themselves. No huge concern to me, as long as this old girl performs only light duty. I'll keep my eyes out, though, for a proper replacement option down the road.

Paint stripping of the disassembled parts shown above starts tomorrow, I hope.

More to come ... more to come ...

Thanks the checking in!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Big Ed,
> 
> I have the engine, as shown in the pics near the top of this thread. It runs, but needs a decent cleaning/lube job. Also, I'm sure that someone had replaced the shiny brass gear between the two drive wheels. Unfortunately, their replacement appears to be a touch smaller diameter than the original, such that there's a wee bit of slop between the motor's small-diameter gear, "this" gear, and the gears on the wheels themselves. No huge concern to me, as long as this old girl performs only light duty. I'll keep my eyes out, though, for a proper replacement option down the road.
> 
> ...


I know I just had to say something.:laugh:

I should have said your arrangement of the parts looks very neat like they are laid out to be operated on.

Are you a doctor of some sorts?:laugh:

I notice your neatness in your first post of your HO layout too?:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Down at the Strip Club ...*

Oowwww! Hubba hubba ... Shiny! I like!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Huh?


Doctor TJ MD


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## Tuner571 (Mar 7, 2010)

Wow, that is a beautiful engine TJ and it looks like you are doing a great job restoring it. Sorry that I have been missing for awhile, I just picked up a job at the local Home Depot and I have been getting my forklift training. Hopefully now I can save up some money and get myself another Lionel to restore.

Cory


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gents,

Another pic/update. Loco boiler, cab, frame, and piston is all stripped, ready for primer / paint. I'll paint each component individually, though the pic shown below has them quickly stacked together for a "fun / shiny" shot. Kinda sweet, huh?

I used paint stripper, then Easy Off to strip / clean the pieces. A little Dremel wire-brush buff/ cleanup after that ... Worked great.

I had to Dremel wire-brush strip the tender sides by hand, shown below. I was afraid to use any liquid strippers, as I'm attempting to save (and reuse) the red "Lionel Lines" painted inset field.

If the weather is nice this weekend, I'll start spray priming / painting.

More to come ...

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

TJ,

What paint stripper did you use, and how did you strip it? Spray or brush?

I'm used to stripping plastic with Easy Off, but I have very limited experience stripping metal


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ian,

"What stripper did I use?" ... Uhh ... I think her name was Barbi or Bambi or something like that. Dohhh!

(Sorry ... couldn't resist.)

This is my first loco strip/refinish job, so I'm naively learning as I go. To get the "first" layer of original paint off, I used Klean Strip KS-3 Premium Stripper (bought at Home Depot). I applied this with a throw-away "chip brush" over a throw-way tinfoil tray. Use this stripper with care, and with plenty of open-air ventilation. That got a chunk of the original paint, but not all. So ...

I then did the Easy Off bath in a throw-away tinfoil tray. That worked great. In fact, so good, that I think I'll go straight to that next time, and forego the Klean Strip.

I used two baths of Easy Off, with a Dremel wire brush rub down after each. Be careful about what type of Dremel wire brush ... there's a (mild) steel one, which shouldn't mar the loco metal. Dremel also makes a staineless steel wire brush, which can be much more abrasive / detrimental to the loco shell and parts. Use with care, if you go this route.

After the stripping and the brushing, I gave everything a careful wipedown with denatured alcohol.

(I stripped the side portions of my tender car with Dremel, only ... no Easy Off, as I wanted to save the original inset painted region.)

One other thought ... about halfway through the Dremel tender strip, I realized that this old Lionel paint was likely lead-based. This thought popped into my head as a cloud of black dust was encircling my head ... and likely into my nose/lungs. Not good. Stupid mistake on my part. I then donned a respirator and pushed ahead with the job.

Hope this helps!

TJ


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Ah yes, lead paint..not good

Thanks for the tip, I didn't even think of that


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*New Paint*

Hi guys,

Another project update...

Component parts now all primed and painted. I still need to do a little gold stripe detailing on the steam chest and the tender side.

I'll likely come to regret this, but I opted to buff down the chromed metal parts (boiler domes, smokestack, headlights, some piping) to their virgin underying metal (in this case, copper), removing the chrome in the process. I like a shiny copper look. The problem is keeping it looking that way. I'm thinking of coating the shiny bare copper with airplane dope, which dries hard and very clear. I'm not sure how smooth I can get that, though ... I think I'll try doping a few pennies first, to see how it looks. If I screw things up with the train, then I'll be the dope!

I'm hoping the now-painted tabs all fit back OK into their mating slots.

And I'm thinking about painting the inner portion of the loco drive wheels red ... maybe ... hmmmm ...

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I would never of had thought that engine had so many parts.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

...or could look so good!


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Tj,

Looks great!:thumbsup: For the copper parts, try Future Floor Polish straight out of your airbrush. Actually, it might work for the whole unit

That should put a nice, smooth, shiny, protective coat on the metal parts:thumbsup:

Cheers, Ian


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ha ha ... What airbrush?!?

I applied some airplane dope to the copper parts late this afternoon. Looks OK, I think. Hard, clear finish.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Oops...my bad, I just assumed...


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

Does the steamchest on that locomotive have a lead weight in it?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Negative. Hollow and empty. However, the gage of steel on the steamchest and the red frame are quite a bit heavier than the steel gage on the rest of the components.


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

I see... I was just wondering because the 259E has a weight, and it is a somewhat close matching design to the Junior locomotive (I think the frame and steamchest are the same parts between the two locomotives)...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It's going to look great when it's back together.:thumbsup:
Well..., it looks great apart too.:thumbsup:

One question, when you were stripping it with all that stuff, how did you protect the Lionel lettering from getting stripped off with the rest?

What brand of paint did you use?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

B&M -- Good question re: the weight. As far as I know, this 1681E never had one. I tried to go to the Olsen online Library to compare the service sheets for this to the 259, but my computer couldn't access the pdf files tonight for some reason. Do you have a 259E? That's a really nice old-school loco!

Big Ed -- I chemical and EasyOff'd everything EXCEPT the tender shell side part. For that, I stripped only mechanically using my Dremel and a steel brush. I then taped off the original red "Lionel Lines" region prior to priming and painting.

Rightly or wrongly, I oped to use Krylon primer and paint. I haven't had much success on my end with long-term adhesion of Rustoleum paint (not trains, but rather outdoor furniture and the like). I like the Rustoleum primer ... stops rust, like it's touted too. However, the guy at Home Depot said that I shouldn't mix/match primers and paint. So, Krylon paint (a bit more flexible, I think, to avoid -- hopefull -- long term chips) teamed with Krylon primer. Important: This is NOT the voice of wisdom talking here ... this is simply first-timer "had to try something" convoluted logic!!!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> B&M -- Good question re: the weight. As far as I know, this 1681E never had one. I tried to go to the Olsen online Library to compare the service sheets for this to the 259, but my computer couldn't access the pdf files tonight for some reason. Do you have a 259E? That's a really nice old-school loco!
> 
> Big Ed -- I chemical and EasyOff'd everything EXCEPT the tender shell side part. For that, I stripped only mechanically using my Dremel and a steel brush. I then taped off the original red "Lionel Lines" region prior to priming and painting.
> 
> ...


A few crackups will tell how good it is.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Bummer update ...

I AM SUCH A SCHMUCK !!!

I was trying to reinstall one of the "sandpipe" (?) curved piping assemblies back onto the boiler shell. As I tried to tuck the bottom of the wire under the shell edge, I must have tugged a bit too tightly, AND THE BOTTOM OF THE WIRE BROKE OFF. There's not enough wire left to fasten it to the shell. Dohhh!

Fortunately, I found a guy on ebay selling an original pair of the same piping. I grabbed them. Should be here in 3 or 4 days. (Jeff at the Train Tender didn't have this part.)

So ...

The project's on hold until the piping arrives ... and until I can take a deep breath and try to stop being so clumsy and stupid.

Schmuckily yours,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Project Completion Update ...

Well, the "new" old replacement sandpipes arrived ... per comments above, I had stupidly broken one of my original ones. I was lucky to find an exact / original replacement, however ...

For anyone ever working on a 1681E down the road ... These sandpipes are EXTREMELY brittle! You need to tug the bottom corners to remove / install, and the slightest tug has a tendency to snap the rod wire right at its lower bend / knuckle. Trust me ... not only did I break one of my originals, I broke another (of the two) replacement ones. 2-for-4 ... pretty bad odds.

Anyway, I had two "good ones" left over, and took it from there ...

I also replaced the contact plate assembly on the loco. Another lesson-learned here: I soldered a new "hot" pickup wire to the back (top) of the new contact plate, and then (with some difficulty) spread the cheeks of the motor housing just enough to the plate it in its designated grooves. All good, right? Nope ... my tiny solder joint was a hair too tall, with the solder (and now center pickup) just touching the metal plates of the motor's field, essentially shorting things out such that the motor wouldn't run. So, I had to ever-so-carefully remove the (new) contact assembly, re-do the wire solder to a much lower profile, then reinstall things again. All good now. Lesson learned: There's very LITTLE clearance between the back (top) of the contact assembly and the motor's field, so use as low-profile solder joint as possible.

Loco and tender all back together. I added a little gold stripe to the steam chest, and as a border between the black and inset-red on the tender. Also jazzed up the drive wheels with red.

Anyway, I'm pleased with how this turned out. A few mistakes / hiccups along the way, but that's how we learn, I guess. In the end, I think I really like these old tinplate models ... but those little tabs and wires sure are finicky. I may wait a while (LONG time!) before tackling another one!

Thanks for all of the nice suggestions / comments ... much appreciated!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, absolutely beautiful! :thumbsup:

You did a wonderful job of painting and giving her some "Class!" Don't stop now, there are many more needy engines, tenders and cars out there.

Can't you hear them calling you by name?:laugh::laugh:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow that looks better then new!:thumbsup:

Next?

Never say never.


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Awesome TJ!!:thumbsup: Another one saved from the junk heap!!

Really, great job:thumbsup:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Now you need gloves to handle it!


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Gloves?*

Bob, he's gonna need gloves to handle all the, "Tin Plate" he'll be buying and restoring!

Methinks he has the bug!:laugh::laugh:(which is very easily caught!)


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## imatt88 (Jan 31, 2010)

Yes, yes it is


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

One more update ...


The sinister, oozing tentacles of the "dark side" forces have slowly, silently, yet surely slithered to their intended victim, grabbing and clenching the jugular, sucking out the life forces, and casting out and away all logic and reason. The victim struggles momentarily, while the last few glimmers of fleeting hope quickly wither and fade away. Resistance is futile, the victim relents, and surrenders all conciousness to the evil, hideous, and dreaded demonic temptations. All hope is lost ... all hope is lost ...

I just bought a clunker of a 259E on ebay ... God help me ...

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> One more update ...
> 
> 
> The sinister, oozing tentacles of the "dark side" forces have slowly, silently, yet surely slithered to their intended victim, grabbing and clenching the jugular, sucking out the life forces, and casting out and away all logic and reason. The victim struggles momentarily, while the last few glimmers of fleeting hope quickly wither and fade away. Resistance is futile, the victim relents, and surrenders all conciousness to the evil, hideous, and dreaded demonic temptations. All hope is lost ... all hope is lost ...
> ...


how much, around $10 bucks? I was watching one on e bay. Didn't look in bad shape.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I paid $28 ... too much??? Jeez ... maybe those demonic tentacles got a hold of my wallet, too. Dohhh!!!!

Like I said .... HELP!

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Jim doesn't have one yet!
Change your buying price to 35 and let it go for 30??
A little horse trading.

If you say "tin" he may buy it anyway.

It's fun to have at least one in your collection.

Reck, nice horse thread it's catchy.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Office Decor*

A little shiny copper to brighten my office. She'll come out to play on special occassions. Tucked away for safe keeping in a cheap ($30) display case from Michael's craft store ...


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