# Prevent "All" [DCC] Track Shortages..(Add A Backup Power Supply = Internal Capacitor)



## ED-RRR

*Prevent "All" [DCC] Track Shortages..(Add A Backup Power Supply = Internal Capacitor)*

Special Notes: (#1)
It does not matter how "Clean" the track is
- OR-
How well the "Switch Tracks" electrically function
--> There may/will be "Electrical Gaps".. 

Special Notes: (#2)
Adding a "Reserve" power supply, a "Capacitor", will insure that the "Decoder" is "Always" powered.. 
This is an excellent example how it works..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv_Vh0ACFyk

Special Notes: (#3)
The "Capacitor" or total "Capacitors" (uF) rating will determine the amount of "Energy" stored..

WARNING: (#1)
The "Manufactures" of a "Backup Power Supply" will "Only" release "Information" for "Their" own decoders..
Most "Manufactures" are now "Hiding" their wire connections..

WARNING: (#2)
The disadvantage of a "Backup Power Supply" that there would be "No" way to initiate an "Emergency Stop"..

Caution:
Extra space will be "Required" inside the Locomotive..

======================================

Special Notes: (#4)
If you are planning to do "Project" --> Add [DCC] "Locomotive Sound" --> Saving Hundreds of $'s..
When a [DCC] Locomotive is operating on the track, there may/will be "Slight Hesitations".. 
When it comes to using a "Sound Decoder", these "Slight Hesitations" may become annoying.. 
Adding a "Backup Power Supply" to "Project" --> Add [DCC] "Locomotive Sound" --> will "Prevent" any "Sound Hesitations"..
This is "Only" a "Sound Decoder"..
Recommend a 200,000 uF "Capacitance" --> "Minimum".. 







======================================

Backup Power Supply: (Information)

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility
--> Very Important Information !!
--> Special Instructions !!
LooK --> Compare the "Capacitance" uF and "Energy" J (Joules)..

Current Keeper Suppliers:
- Digitrax
- ESU 
- Lenz 
- NCE
- SoundTraxx (Tsunami) 
- TCS

- OR --> Make Your Own.._:dunno:

======================================

Digitrax Corporation: (Power Extenders)..
http://www.digitrax.com/search/?q=Power+Xtender
[N] Gauge:
- PX112-6 (Includes Speaker)
- PX112-6F 
[HO] Gauge:
- PX112-2
- PX112-10 (Includes Speaker)








ESU: (Power Pack)
http://www.esu.eu/en/products/former-products/powerpack
- 54670 









NCE: (No Halt)
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200590899-No-Halt-Information
- Small 5240148
- Medium 5240149








SoundTraxx: (Current Keeper)
http://www.soundtraxx.com/access/wiring.php
- 810140







TCS: (Keep Alive)
https://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Keep-Alive/Keep-Alive.php
- KA1
- KA1-C (With 2-Pin Quick Connector Harness)
- KA2
- KA2-C (With 2-Pin Quick Connector Harness)








Make Your Own: (Backup Power Supply)_:dunno:
Warning: (#1)
Be sure to observe "Correct Polarity"..
- Capacitor (Band) = Negative (-)
- Diode (Band) = Negative (-)
Warning: (#2)
Be sure to insulate "All" wire connections, because an electrical short may/will "Destroy" the "Decoder"..
Caution:
Larger the "Diode" amperage, larger will be a voltage drop..(More Resistance).. 

Hardware Required: (For "All" Units)
- (x1) 100 Ohm Resistor (1/2 Watt)
- (x1) 1Amp 50V Diode - 1N4001
- (x1) Black (Stranded) Wire #20AWG --> #22AWG (Not Decoder Wire)
- (x1) Blue (Stranded) Wire #20AWG --> #22AWG (Not Decoder Wire)
- (x1) Heat Shrink Tubing To Insulate "Open" wires (Prevent An Electrical Short Damaging the Decoder)
- (x1) Capacitor (Optional Choices)

Capacitor: (Optional Choices)
- 1000uf 25v Capacitor 10mm Dia. x 21mm Long = .34" Dia. x .83" Long 
- 2200uf 25v capacitor 13mm Dia. x 26mm Long = .51" Dia. x 1.0" Long 
- 3300uf 25v capacitor 16mm Dia. x 26mm Long = .63" Dia. x 1.0" Long 
- 4700uf 25v capacitor 16mm Dia. x 32mm Long = 1.26" Dia. x 1.26" Long 









===============

Have also included "Wire Connection Instructions".._
......


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## ED-RRR

*Wire Connection Instructions..*

Warning: _
The "Manufactures" of a "Backup Power Supply" will "Only" release "Information" for "Their" own decoders..
Most "Manufactures" are now "Hiding" their wiring connections..

Caution:_
I have found a lot of "Information", doing research, searching the "Internet"..
I am quite "Confident" that this posted information is 100% "Correct"..

======================================

Manufacture Standards:
- Digitrax = Black & Red wires
- ESU = Black & Red wires
- Lenz = Black & Red wires (AND) Black & Blue wires 
- SoundTraxx (Tsunami) = Black & Blue wires 
- TCS = Black & Blue wires 

Technical Information:
All [DCC] decoders operate as per N.M.R.A. standards..
All [DCC] (x8) pin connectors apply to N.M.R.A. standards..
Pin #1 = Orange (Motor) --> (+) 
Pin #2 = Yellow (Backup Light)
Pin #3 = Green (Not Used)
Pin #4 = Black (Left Track Pickup) [L]
Pin #5 = Gray (Motor) --> (-) 
Pin #6 = White (Head Light)
Pin #7 = Blue (Common) --> (+)
Pin #8 = Red (Right Track Pickup) [R]

Found Information:
- Found information that a "Storage Capacitor" (+) is connected to the decoder "Blue" wire
- The "Black" wire is "Ground" (-)
- Some manufactures use Black & Blue wires
- The Blue wire = (+) (Common) 
--> So the Red wire = (+) (Common) 









Assembly Instructions:
The "Capacitor" must be connected in "Parallel"..
Warning: (#1)
Be sure to connect to correct "Polarity"..
Warning: (#2)
Be sure to insulate "All" wire connections, because an electrical short may/will "Destroy" the "Decoder"..
Use heat shrink tubing to "Insulate" open wires (Prevent An Electrical Short)

Step: (#1)
Connecting the [Blue] -OR- [Red] common (+) "Wire"..
Solder the Blue "OR" Red wire from the "Storage Capacitor" to the [Blue] common (+) "Wire"..







Step: (#2)
Connecting the [Black] (-) "Ground Wire"..
Warning: 
Each and every "Different" decoder will have a "Different" (-) "Ground" location..
SoundTraxx supplies information for the [TSU-750] and [TSU-1000]..
LokSound also supplies some information..
Solder the Black (Green) wire to the circuit board "Common Ground" (-)..








......


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## wvgca

you're better off using the newer high capacity 'super caps' rather than an ordinary electrolytic , they need to be series coupled as operating voltage is lower than what is required ... most are 2.7v, with some at 5.5v


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## ED-RRR

*"High Capacity Capacitors"*



wvgca said:


> you're better off using the newer high capacity 'super caps' rather than an ordinary electrolytic ,
> they need to be series coupled as operating voltage is lower than what is required ...
> most are 2.7v, with some at 5.5v


Totally Confused _ :dunno:_ From Your Reply !! 
I "Only" looked at "Actual" units "Presently" used --> For Model Trains (100% Proven) !!

I could have included a "High Capacity Capacitor" 
- BUT-
Some (Newer) "High Capacity Capacitors" require "Special Wiring"..(Fact).._

Question: (#1)
You may have a "Better" solution over the "Present" usage of a "Backup Power Supply"..
-BUT- 
Why are you suggesting "Different Versions" --> Without any assembly/drawing "Instructions" ??_ 
Sorry, but actual "Proven"/"Tested" facts" are required.._
......


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## wvgca

uhh ... confused .. you show store bought units that are quite obvious supercaps , indicated by usage of five or six caps in a single package .. 5 x 2.7v =13.5v rating, 5 x 1F = 200kuf ..[6= 16.2v / 160kuf], and then lower down you show regular electrolytic [4700uf / 25v] .. no special wiring is required for supercaps over regular electrolytics.. 
the advantages of supercaps are much greater storage capacity at same size volume, but at a higher cost factor as well ..
and also diode size does not affect voltage drop, silicon is 0.67v, germanium and schottky are less


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## JerryH

I will have to try this! Very good idea.


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## ED-RRR

*"Update Information"*

LooK.."Great News"..

I found an individual that has answered "All" of our future "Questions"..
There is "Excellent" detailed information for many different decoders..
I have included a large list.. 

Marcus Ammann’s..
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm

Tsunami AT-1000
Tsunami GN-1000
Soundtraxx in Bachmann, Intermountain & Proto.
QSI Revolution A.
QSI Revolution U 
Loksound V3.5 
Loksound V4.0
DSD100-LC
DSD-AT100LC
DSD-B280LC
DSD-LL110LC
DSD150
TCS T1
NCE D14SR
NCE D408SR Decoder.

Reference Only:
ESU LokSound V4.0 and Select "Keep-Alive"..
"Only" uses (x1) 2,200uF 25V Capacitor..
http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/esuloksoundv40andselectkeepalive.html








......


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## ED-RRR

*"Back Seat Driver"*

Hello: [wvgca]..

This is a technical "Thread" where I am "Only" posting actual found "Information" and "Facts".. 
The posted information has "Nothing" to do with "MY" own personnel views or input..
Each individual has their own choice.._ 

Fact: (#1)
- Larger the "Capacitance" uF total value = More Storage (Joules)

Fact: (#2)
- LokSound micro "Only" requires 2200uF 25V (Back Up Capacitor) !!

Question: [wvgca]..
Why are you constantly "Jumping" in "Confusing" the readers in this "Thread" ??_:dunno:_
Why are you informing individuals that they are "High" efficiency "Capacitors" ??__ :dunno:__(Who Really Cares)_..
Why is LokSound micro "Only" require a "Minimum" 2200uF 25V (Back Up Capacitor) ??_:dunno:_

Fact: (#3)
Especially "Myself" and maybe other readers do "Not"__ require a "Back Seat Driver" like yourself..[wvgca]..







Maybe "Start" your own "Thread", how to "Build" your own/better Capacitor/Capacitors "Backup Power Supply".._"
"Stop" trying to take some "Credit Input" __ from my own "Research"..








......


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## /6 matt

To be honest your posts are informative yet confusing to read due to the awkward format you write with so pardon me if I'm asking a question already answered.



> The "Manufactures" of a "Backup Power Supply" will "Only" release "Information" for "Their" own decoders..
> Most "Manufactures" are now "Hiding" their wiring connections


What are you trying to say here? That we can only use capacitors of the same brand as the decoder? Why will the decoder care? Current is current. And what do you mean by hidden wire connections? Aren't the wires in plain sight inside the loco?


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## ED-RRR

*- Reply -*



/6 matt said:


> To be honest your posts are informative yet confusing to read due to the awkward format you write with
> so pardon me if I'm asking a question already answered..


Sorry, but you are the first..
I was a manufacturing process engineer for the Colt M16 rifle and F15 jet fighter..
The instructions had to be simple and exact to the point to prevent manufacturing errors..


/6 matt said:


> What are you trying to say here? That we can only use capacitors of the same brand as the decoder? Why will the decoder care? Current is current..


Repeat:
The "Manufactures" of a "Backup Power Supply" will "Only" release "Information" for "Their" own decoders..
Most "Manufactures" are now "Hiding" their wiring connections..
Reply:
The "Manufactures" are trying to prevent you from buying from the competition..
Of course "Any" capacitor/capacitors are of your choice !!


/6 matt said:


> And what do you mean by hidden wire connections?
> Aren't the wires in plain sight inside the loco?..


The capacitor/capacitors (+) "Plus" are connected the "Same" for "All" decoders..
The decoder "Blue Wire" is the (Common) --> (+)
WARNING:
There is "No" (-) direct "Ground Wire" connection !!
Every decoder has a (-) "Ground" location on the circuit board.. 
This (-) "Negative" [Ground] location is "Different" for each Manufacture and P/N..
The capacitor (-) "Black Wire" is "Soldered" to the (-) "Ground" on the circuit board.. 

LooK at the "Update Information" I posted in this same "Thread"..
An incorrect "Soldering Procedure" could/will "Destroy" the "Decoder"..
......


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## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> /6 matt said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest your posts are informative yet confusing to read due to the awkward format you write with so pardon me if I'm asking a question already answered.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you are the first..
Click to expand...

Well, he's not alone.


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## ED-RRR

*"Technical Terms"..(Advanced DCC Users)..*



/6 matt said:


> To be honest your posts are informative yet confusing to read due to the awkward format you write with so pardon me if I'm asking a question already answered.





CTValleyRR said:


> Well, he's not alone.


Sorry, if my "Technical Terms" are "Too" advanced for you !!_
I have shown all the "Steps", "Procedures" and "Questions".._
If you do "Not" understand this highly detailed "Advanced" [DCC] "Terminology", then you will "Not" be able to this "Advanced [DCC] Project".._
......


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## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> Sorry, if my "Technical Terms" are "Too" advanced for you !!_
> I have shown all the "Steps", "Procedures" and "Questions".._
> If you do "Not" understand this highly detailed "Advanced" [DCC] "Terminology", then you will "Not" be able to this "Advanced [DCC] Project".._
> ......



Spare me. I mastered your technical terms in 9th grade.

It's your way of presenting them -- and your attitude -- that leaves a lot to be desired.


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## /6 matt

CTValleyRR said:


> Spare me. I mastered your technical terms in 9th grade.
> 
> It's your way of presenting them -- and your attitude -- that leaves a lot to be desired.


He obviously doesn't understand the difference between format and vocabulary so you may as well just let him sit up there on his high horse where complete sentences don't exist. :laugh:


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## ED-RRR

*Reply: -->To My (x2) Attackers..*



/6 matt said:


> To be honest your posts are informative yet confusing to read due to the awkward format you write with
> so pardon me if I'm asking a question already answered.





CTValleyRR said:


> Well, he's not alone.





CTValleyRR said:


> Spare me. I mastered your technical terms in 9th grade..


[CTValleyRR]
You posted --> he's not alone..
You posted --> I mastered your technical terms in 9th grade..
That is (x2) "Different" types of "Views" posted..
Questions: [CTValleyRR]
Do you -OR- do you not understand my "Thread" ?? 
What is your point ??
It is the "Same" procedure I used in..
Add [DCC] "Locomotive Sound" --> Saving Hundreds of $'s..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68202
[gunrunnerjohn] Admin --> "Sticky"..



/6 matt said:


> ..And what do you mean by hidden wire connections? Aren't the wires in plain sight inside the loco?..


Posted --> "Update Information" (This Thread)..
Marcus Ammann’s..
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm
It is quite obvious that you did "Not" go to this web sight and read the "Instructions"..



/6 matt said:


> He obviously doesn't understand the difference between format and vocabulary..


Sorry, but my instructions are long enough..
- I have detailed instructions to go to Web Sites
- Here is where the manufacture instructions (Pages) are located, that I can "NOT" copy..("Copy Write" - "Laws")..
- It is quite obvious from your previous posting [wires in plain sight inside the loco?] that you do "Not" read web site "Instructions"..



CTValleyRR said:


> -- and your attitude -- that leaves a lot to be desired.


Reply:[CTValleyRR] 
Sorry, if you do not like my attitude..
It is most likely has to do with what I posted about [wvgca]..
We have crossed rails many times, because [wvgca] is always cross examining my "Threads"..
This is "Not" the first time I asked [wvgca] to stop attacking my "Threads"..



/6 matt said:


> so you may as well just let him sit up there on his high horse
> where complete sentences don't exist..


Reply: [6 matt]..
I will "Not" write a book of "Instructions"..
Again, "Copy Write" - "Laws" apply when using the "Same" type of "Technical Information"..
This "Forum" must abide my these "Laws"..
While I sit on my "High Horse", get off your "Pony" and "Read" the web site "Instructions"..

Copy Write" - "Laws" apply when using "Manufacture Technical Information".. 

……


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## ED-RRR

*"Rebuttal" (Replies Requested)..*

Hello; [CTValleyRR]
Hello: [/6 matt]

I am presently still waiting for your "Rebuttal" (Replies).._:dunno:
"Back Up" your previous "Posted" Information !! _:stroke:
......


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## /6 matt

Reply:[ED-RR]

As I'm "sure" you may "have" now "noticed"
I am "also" capable [of] placing "unnecessary" quotation "marks" around random "words"
And [hitting] the "enter" key at "awkward" moments for "no" reason.
[Also] watch how "I" use "brackets"/parenthesis [improperly]
"Therefor" logic "implies" I [must] now "be" a genius like "yourself"
Due to "my" newfound "ability" to speak "in" technical terms.

- But "wait" there's [more]! I will [now] write the next "portion" of my response "in" 
 format
-Excuse my "prior" transgression of "attempting" to semi [politely] ask a "question"
-You did "not" have [to] "belittle" me and "act" like a jerk
- Now that "I" know how "to" type like a schizophrenic "pelican" I now [know] "everything" about the world "I" am now a "genius" [like] yourself
-"Originally" it was [not] my intention [to] dignify "you" (with) a "response", but I [whimsically] decided to "attempt" to [be] a "genius" like yourself
-There "will" be no "further" [rebuttals]


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## ED-RRR

*Counter-Rebuttal..*

Since the beginning of forums, there has always been and there will always be disagreements..

It sure looks like [CTValleyRR] and myself [ED-RRR] have a gentleman's agreement that this confrontation has ended.._ :smilie_daumenpos:



/6 matt said:


> He obviously doesn't understand the difference between format and vocabulary
> so you may as well just let him sit up there on his high horse where complete sentences don't exist. :laugh:


Sorry, but you were the aggressor and started this confrontation.. 



/6 matt said:


> Reply:[ED-RR]
> As I'm "sure" you may "have" now "noticed"
> I am "also" capable [of] placing "unnecessary" question "marks" around random "words"
> And [hitting] the "enter" key at "awkward" moments for "no" reason.
> [Also] watch how "I" use "brackets"/parenthesis [improperly]
> "Therefor" logic "implies" I [must] now "be" a genius like "yourself"
> Due to "my" newfound "ability" to speak "in" technical terms.
> - But "wait" there's [more]! I will [now] write the next "portion" of my response "in"
> format
> - Excuse my "prior" transgression of "attempting" to semi [politely] ask a "question"
> - You did "not" have [to] "belittle" me and "act" like a jerk
> - Now that "I" know how "to" type like a schizophrenic "pelican" I now [know] "everything" about the world "I" am now a "genius" [like] yourself
> - "Originally" it was [not] my intention [to] dignify "you" (with) a "response", but I [whimsically] decided to "attempt" to [be] a "genius" like yourself
> - There "will" be no "further" [rebuttals]





Counter-Rebuttal.._
Now you are getting personal and mocking how I write my forums..
Maybe you should try to write a technical thread and wear my shoes..
These added features "" () [] highlight important information for the reader..
It is obvious that you do like technical terms..
You sure would not like my instructions how to build F15 and F18 jet fighter nose cone radar boxes.. 



/6 matt said:


> - You did "not" have [to] "belittle" me and "act" like a jerk
> - "Therefor" logic "implies" I [must] now "be" a genius like "yourself"
> - Now that "I" know how "to" type like a schizophrenic "pelican" I now [know] "everything" about the world "I" am now a "genius" [like] yourself


Sorry, but again you were the aggressor and started this confrontation..
Where did the term high horse come from ?
Instead of stating incorrect information regarding the black wire, a question could have been asked..
That is why I had to add a correction to your confusing posting..

Where are you getting this word genius from ?_
I am not the real author of this thread and some other threads..
I only collect all the information for one subject from the internet and post in a thread.. 
This also requires a lot of work and obviously I hate being attacked with confusing additions and personal attacks..
These type of threads are to help the inexperienced and newbies, like yourself..
......


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## Mark R.

For what it's worth .... it's "copyright", not copy write .... 

The problem that I'm having with your opening posts is that you are just gleening information from the www and compiling it into one location without fully understanding it. There are numerous examples of partial truths and blatant misunderstandings of how these products function.

As for having an appreciation as to how you format your postings, well .... if I were looking for technical information on how to build F15 and F18 jet fighter nose cone radar boxes, I might - but we're not - so I don't.

Mark.


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## ED-RRR

*Another Unhappy Customer..*



Mark R. said:


> The problem that I'm having with your opening posts is that you are just gleening information from the www and compiling it into one location without fully understanding it.
> ..


If I did not know or fully understand what I was doing, then how was I able to search dozens of web sites to collect and compile information for this thread ??_
I was able to find all the required information for this project..
What required information to complete this project is missing ??_



Mark R. said:


> There are numerous examples of partial truths and blatant misunderstandings of how these products function..


These are only words from you..
What partial truths ??_
Could you please inform us what web site or web sites have incorrect information..
I noticed that no corrections or updates came from you..

Any and all corrections will help individuals doing this project.._
We will be waiting for your corrections regarding any manufacture instruction errors..
......


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## /6 matt

Mark R. said:


> For what it's worth .... it's "copyright", not copy write ....


FACT: copy write "is" a [technical] term.


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## ED-RRR

*Thanks..*



/6 matt said:


> FACT: copy write "is" a [technical] term.


You of all people, would do a [technical] term correction update..Why ??_ _Now Totally Confused_
Thanks for your correction update and support..
Congratulations,_:smilie_daumenpos:_ You are the "Very" first to do this in this "Forum" for me..
Thanks Again:_:smilie_daumenpos:
......


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## Mark R.

Copyright vs. copywrite: ....

Copyright is a noun referring an creator’s exclusive legal right to his or her work. A copyrighter is a person who secures copyrights. Other derivative forms include copyrighting, copyrights, copyrighted, and copyrightable. 

Copywrite is a rarely occurring backformation from copywriter—which refers to a writer of copy, especially in advertising. It has never caught on, and some might consider it an error. If you want to say what copywriters do, say not that they copywrite but that they write copy.

Mark.


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## ED-RRR

*Who Really Cares ..*



Mark R. said:


> Copyright vs. copywrite: ....
> Copyright is a noun referring an creator’s exclusive legal right to his or her work. A copyrighter is a person who secures copyrights. Other derivative forms include copyrighting, copyrights, copyrighted, and copyrightable.
> Copywrite is a rarely occurring backformation from copywriter—which refers to a writer of copy, especially in advertising. It has never caught on, and some might consider it an error. If you want to say what copywriters do, say not that they copywrite but that they write copy.
> Mark.


You started this "Stupid" --> Copy Right vs. Copy Write..
Who really cares ??_:dunno:_

Fact is Fact, I can "Not" copy any "Privately Owned" technical information..
So what is your point..__ when it comes to model train modeling..__.. 
Who Really Cares ..__
......


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## ED-RRR

*Update: (From Past Posting)..*

Previously Posted In This Thread:
_ Another Unhappy Customer..
RE: Mark R. [Roach Custom Painting]

After posting this reply, I had to look up [Mark R.] past history..
To see if he has any past history or knowledge of [DCC] so he can back up his words and knowledge..

Dated: 02-09-2014.. 
Constant DC Lighting With 1.5 Volt Bulbs..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=22602
[Mark R.]
I have a dummy engine with two 1.5 volt / 40ma bulbs in it.
I tried the usual bridge rectifier with a 12 volt bulb as the load, wiring the 1.5 volt bulbs across the jumpered AC terminals on the bridge rectifier.
Trouble was, it took nearly 10 volts to get the 1.5 volt bulbs to light up !

Question: (#1)_
Why an I being challenged about my posted [DCC] "Capacitor Back-Up Systems" from an individual [Mark R.],
that can "Not" even wire (x2) 1.5 volt / 40ma bulbs ??

Question: (#2)_
Why is [Mark R.] still in the past, still using "Bulbs" for Locomotive lighting when LED's have been used for many years ??

Question: (#3)_
Why is there "No" model railroad "Scale" shown for [Mark R.] but only his --> [Roach Custom Painting] ??

======================

Remember: [Mark R.]
I hate doing this..
-BUT-
You are the aggressor and attacked me "First" with false unproven accusations"..
I do not take "False" attacks against me very lightly..

This "Thread" is still waiting for "Your" web site "Manufacture Corrections" !! 
- But Instead -
You totally "Ignored" the "Manufacture Corrections Required" requested from 'You"
and replied with a totally stupid useless "Copy Right" - "Copy Write" reply.._:dunno:_

Again: Do you have any experience when it comes to [DCC] ??__

P.S.
It sure does "Not" reflect a good behavior, customer relations, when having [Roach Custom Painting] !!
......


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## Mark R.

Do I have any experience in DCC ? Let's see ....

1. - I have run my own custom building and painting business for the last ten years and have installed more than 400 decoders (both sound and non-sound) including all three variations of stay alive modules (factory built, home-built - both with electrolytic caps and super caps) in engines, cabooses and passenger cars.

2. - I assisted TCS in the original design of their first decoders when they first went into business.

3. - I assisted ESU Loksound in both product design and sound scheduling along with assisting in doing the sound recording and editing for some of their files.

4. - On a personal basis, I designed and built a completely functional signalling system from scratch, with detection on my 24' X 26' layout.

5.- I designed and built my own wireless DCC throttles when what was being made commercially wasn't meeting my expectations.

I could go on, but I hope that should satisfy your requirements as to my electronic credentials. As for the thread on the 1.5 volt bulbs, that was because I haven't USED bulbs in fifteen years and a client specified he wanted bulbs in his dummy engine to have constant brightness. If you bothered to read the entire thread, you would have seen I figured it out myself in spite of the mis-information from the other experts. 

You still want me to point out your descrepancies ? How about backing up YOUR knowledge on model railroad electronics ?

Mark.


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> You started this "Stupid" --> Copy Right vs. Copy Write..
> Who really cares ??_:dunno:_
> 
> Fact is Fact, I can "Not" copy any "Privately Owned" technical information..
> So what is your point..__ when it comes to model train modeling..__..
> Who Really Cares ..__
> ......


Well, you're the one who seems to be all gung-ho about having everything technically correct. So, the use of other people's information IS a copyright concern. But alas, technically YOU are correct in that you are just taking copy and writing it, so you ARE a copy writer.

As for what points are concerning model railroading are, your ability to write technical jargon for nose cone radar boxes has no relevance to us here either ....

From what I've read in your responses here, you are nothing more than than a self-absorbed *** who believes everything they read on the internet. I've seen nothing that supports you have any actual knowledge on this subject aside from what you Google. Any amount of hands-on knowledge with this subject would immediately question some information you are just copying and pasting here. I should have realized from the get-go, that due to the lack of responses from other members here, arguing with you is a futile venture - I was just gullible enough to take the bait .... and kept coming back for more. You are no longer worth the effort.

Mark.


----------



## /6 matt

ED-RRR said:


> You of all people, would do a [technical] term correction update..Why ??_ _Now Totally Confused_
> Thanks for your correction update and support..
> Congratulations,_:smilie_daumenpos:_ You are the "Very" first to do this in this "Forum" for me..
> Thanks Again:_:smilie_daumenpos:
> ......


At this point I'm really just stirring the pot.
:smilie_auslachen:


----------



## ED-RRR

*Canadians At Their Best and (2nd) Request..*

The members list in this forum = 16,148
Lets say that any 10% of the members are still using this forum = 1,614
Why is it that with this many members in this forum, I have two Canadians hounding me ??



/6 matt said:


> At this point I'm really just stirring the pot.
> :smilie_auslachen:


[/6 matt]: 
There are presently 680 views to this thread..
He thinks it is all a funny joke..
He is also dumping useless garbage that does not assist anyone else reading this thread.. 
His only goal is attack me personally and totally disrupt this thread..(Why ?).. __

Question: (To Thread Readers)..
Do you really want this kind of information posted ??



Mark R. said:


> Do I have any experience in DCC ? Let's see ....
> 1. - I have run my own custom building and painting business for the last ten years and have installed more than 400 decoders (both sound and non-sound) including all three variations of stay alive modules (factory built, home-built - both with electrolytic caps and super caps) in engines, cabooses and passenger cars.
> 2. - I assisted TCS in the original design of their first decoders when they first went into business.
> 3. - I assisted ESU Loksound in both product design and sound scheduling along with assisting in doing the sound recording and editing for some of their files.
> 4. - On a personal basis, I designed and built a completely functional signalling system from scratch, with detection on my 24' X 26' layout.
> 5. - I designed and built my own wireless DCC throttles when what was being made commercially wasn't meeting my expectations.
> I could go on, but I hope that should satisfy your requirements as to my electronic credentials.
> Mark.


[Mark R.]:
Has much higher electronic credentials than myself..

[ED-RRR]:
I myself only have some [DCC] knowledge..
Digitrax [DCC] Since 2002..
C.T.I. [DCC] fully automated track signal systems..
SoundTraxx- Tsunami [DCC] sound decoders..
--> Custom electronic designed and built circuit board for my 120' foot Diamond Scales Turntable with actual operating sound.. 

[ED-RRR]:
I myself never posted or claimed to have any type of electronic credentials..
I do have a direct private e-mail connection to Mark Gurries..A [DCC] electronic professional engineer..
Mark Gurries: (Private Web Site)..https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home

In an older previous thread, I claimed that electronic noise will interfere with [DCC] signals.. 
Of course like always, there were individuals that falsely attacked me..
Then a did a new re-posting..
#4) Noise (Electronic) Prevention for [DCC]
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=53169&highlight=electronic+noise
Thanks to Mark Gurries, 100% proof and facts were re-posted as I had previously stated..
This is where I get my direct electronic [DCC] information assistance from.. 
- BUT -
All the information found and posted in this "Thread" are only from the "Manufactures"..(Not My Wording).. 



Mark R. said:


> There are numerous examples of partial truths and blatant misunderstandings of how these products function..Mark.





Mark R. said:


> You still want me to point out your descrepancies ?.. Mark.


Requesting for the second (2nd) time to..[Mark R.].._ _
First of all, they are "Not" my discrepancies !!
Could you please inform us what web site or web sites (Manufactures) have incorrect [DCC] information !!_:dunno:_

Again, any and all corrections will help individuals doing this project..
Again, we will be waiting for your corrections regarding any manufacture instruction errors..__
......


----------



## /6 matt

1st of all, I'm not Canadian, in case you can't read, my profile says Burke county NC. North Carolina.

2nd of all, you sure did like my useless garbage in post #22

3rd I tried to be constructive and ask a few simple questions for clarifications, you talked down to me and acted like a jerk. Try being nice for a change, and maybe folks wouldn't ride you like Seabiscuit.

4th You compile information from all over the internet, information that is not your own, and act like its hard work. You present it in a FORMAT that's reminiscent of a 6th graders history notes and act like anybody who has trouble reading is an idiot. This entire thread is a funny joke, so is our attitudes. I'm not really taking away anything from your thread, don't kid yourself. So yeah, I'm trolling you for fun cause I really don't have anything better to do.

So are you gonna let it go and ignore me? Or shall we keep going till the whole thread gets trashed? Your move. You could also block me or report me, but then the terrorists will win.


----------



## ED-RRR

*[/6 matt].. Information Now Deleted From This "Thread" ..*

From past postings..(That are now "Deleted" from this "Thread")..



/6 matt said:


> --> 1st of all, I'm not Canadian, in case you can't read, my profile says Burke county NC. North Carolina..


Sorry, I stand corrected giving incorrect information..
I was confused with another Canadian..



/6 matt said:


> --> 2nd of all, you sure did like my useless garbage in post #22..


I was truthful and sincere with you..
-BUT-
You now state that it was useless posted garbage and you made it into a non-friendly joke..
Wasting space and everyone’s time in this thread..(Proof - Your Words)..



/6 matt said:


> --> 3rd I tried to be constructive and ask a few simple questions for clarifications,
> you talked down to me and acted like a jerk. Try being nice for a change, and maybe folks wouldn't ride you like Seabiscuit..


[/6 matt] First Posting (#9)..



/6 matt said:


> To be honest your posts are informative yet confusing to read due to the awkward format you write..





/6 matt said:


> And what do you mean by hidden wire connections? Aren't the wires in plain sight inside the loco?..


You stated that my posts are informative and confusing to read..(Informative = Attack)..
My reply was Posting (#10)..
I even apologized for my writing procedures..
There were no direct attacks against you in this posting..(100% Information)..



/6 matt said:


> --> 4th You compile information from all over the internet, information that is not your own, and act like its hard work.
> You present it in a FORMAT that's reminiscent of a 6th graders history notes and act like anybody who has trouble reading is an idiot.
> This entire thread is a funny joke, so is our attitudes. I'm not really taking away anything from your thread, don't kid yourself..


The only place to get information, is over the internet.. 
States that I write like 6th graders history notes, that he does not understand..



/6 matt said:


> --> 4th So yeah, I'm trolling you for fun cause I really don't have anything better to do..


Wasting space and everyone’s time in this thread..(More Proof - Your Words)..



/6 matt said:


> --> 4th So are you gonna let it go and ignore me? Or shall we keep going till the whole thread gets trashed? Your move..


Holy crap, now I am being black mailed in my own "Thread" !! 



/6 matt said:


> --> 4th You could also block me or report me, but then the terrorists will win..


"but then the terrorists will win" !!
Now this is getting way out of control from [/6 matt] in this "Forum"..
This is a very concerning serious subject and "Not" to be taken lightly..

=====================

My Deepest Apologies:

I never thought that it would go this far..
Where [/6 matt] would go all out to try to destroy me and this "Thread"..
There are other individuals that can also greatly help
-BUT-
Of course I will protect my "Thread" from false incorrect information posted..

I have "Banned" [/6 matt] all communications to my "Threads"..
- Likes to trash this "Thread"..
- Try’s to black mail me..
- If I block him, ("Quoted" then the terrorists will win)..

Questions:_ _
Why is this individual _[/6 matt]_ in this "Forum" --> trying to black mail me ??
Why is this individual _[/6 matt]_ in this "Forum" --> comparing himself to a terrorist ??
......


----------



## /6 matt

Blackmail? That's a stretch. And the terrorist thing was a reference that I guess you didn't understand. Either way I think my work here is done.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Requesting For The Third (3rd) Time --> Directed To..[Mark R.]..*

I posted a very "Advanced" [DCC] sound system and received a ["Sticky"]..
Add [DCC] "Locomotive Sound" --> Saving Hundreds of $'s..
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68202
--> "Never" recieved any "Incorrect" posted information !!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prevent "All" [DCC] Track Shortages..(Add A Backup Power Supply = Internal Capacitor) 

This a project is "Only" adding a "Back-Up" temporary power supply..(Capacitor/Capacitors).. 
This project requires the Capacitor (+) to be connected to the "Blue" common (+) "Decoder Wire"..
This project requires the Capacitor (-) to be soldered to a "Special Location" on the [DCC] circuit board "Black" (-) "Ground Wire"..



Mark R. said:


> There are numerous examples of partial truths and blatant misunderstandings of how these products function..
> Mark..





Mark R. said:


> You still want me to point out your descrepancies ?..Mark..


Think Twice: [Mark R.] Before Answering..
Is this how you really want to represent yourself..(Roach Custom Painting)..
http://roachcustompainting.weebly.com/index.html
--> Your "Not" a very "Friendly" individual to communicate with on this "Thread", having a custom "Model Train Painting Shop" !! 

Again, any and all corrections will help individuals doing this project..__..
Again, we will be waiting for your "Advanced" corrections regarding any manufacture instruction errors..

--> Again, for the "Third (3rd) Time"..__..
--> What errors are posted in this "Thread" ?? __ 
......


----------



## /6 matt

You pull the victim card throughout the entire time and even apologize for things getting out of hand. Then in the same breath proceed to try to start crap with somebody who has long since been ignoring you. And you wonder why I can't resist the temptation to troll?

You actually had me feeling bad before that. Bravo sir, well played. :appl:


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> --> Your "Not" a very "Friendly" individual to communicate with on this "Thread", having a custom "Model Train Painting Shop" !!


It's you're [you are], not "your" ....

By the way - thanks for the free advertising - the views to my site took a spike. Too bad I closed shop. 

Mark.


----------



## /6 matt

Mark R. said:


> It's you're [you are], not "your" ...


He was using technical terms.


----------



## Mark R.

/6 matt said:


> He was using technical terms.


Could be a copy write issue as well .... 

Mark.


----------



## ED-RRR

*ModelTrainForum.com/*

So this is how only "Some" adults now behave in this "Model Train Forum"..
A cat and mouse game..
Where only, again only, some adults now spend their useless time, trying to achieve some recognition in this forum.. 
What has now happened to this model train hobby / forum ?? 

Fact: [Mark R.]
Posting #19 (partial truths and blatant misunderstandings of how these products function)..
I was accused of incorrect posted information from [Mark R.].. 
I also requested multiple times (x3) from [Mark R.] for any required updated "Corrections"..
Never received any "Correction" updates..
Only received attacks against me..
= (A False Unproven Accusation Against Me)..

Fact: [/6 matt]
Posting #28 (At this point I'm really just stirring the pot.)..
Posting #30 (2nd of all, you sure did like my useless garbage in post #22)..
Posting #30 (So yeah, I'm trolling you for fun cause I really don't have anything better to do.)..
Posting #30 (So are you gonna let it go and ignore me? Or shall we keep going till the whole thread gets trashed?)..
Posting #30 (You could also block me or report me, but then the terrorists will win.)..
Posting #32 (Blackmail? That's a stretch. And the terrorist thing was a reference that I guess you didn't understand.)..
= (Has Nothing Better To Do - But To Attack Me)..

==========================================================================

So this is how only "Some" adults now behave in this "Model Train Forum"..
[Mark R.] & [/6 matt]..
Do they intend to "Improve" and "Help" in this "Thread" ??

There are many individuals that are only looking for [DCC] "Help"..
This is a [DCC] help thread..(Not A Private Attack - Against My Thread).. 

Butting heads (x3), (Sorry Locomotives) for a total "Waist" of space/time in this "Forum"..
- (x2) other individuals [Mark R.] & [/6 matt]..
- (x1) and myself [ED-RRR]









(Sorry), [ED-RRR]
- For adding absolutely total useless (confrontation) information and space..

[Mark R.] & [/6 matt]..
Now represents "Themselves" as present day (2016) model train builders.. 

......


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> Butting heads (x3), (Sorry Locomotives) for a total "Waist" of space/time in this "Forum"..
> 
> 
> ......


Having been a proof reader for 25 years and you being a technical writer, I can't help but chuckle at your mis-use of the English language. 

As for why I'm not responding to your queries ? .... I was honestly prepared to go back through each and every item that needed elaborating upon, but after reading your initial responses and the rude manner in which you presented them, it was obvious you don't take criticism lightly and any effort on my part would no doubt be responded to in like. So, I figured it wasn't worth the effort. And your feeble attempts to belittle me are pure gold. 

Mark.


----------



## ED-RRR

*"Hippo-crate"*

[Mark R.]
You are one big ""Hippo-crate"..

02-07-2016, 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562


Mark R. said:


> The problem that I'm having with your opening posts is that you are just gleening information from the www
> and compiling it into one location without fully understanding it.
> There are numerous examples of partial truths and blatant misunderstandings of how these products function.
> Mark.


Thank-You for your "Unproven Attack"..

02-07-2016, 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562


Mark R. said:


> Do I have any experience in DCC ? Let's see ....
> 1. - I have run my own custom building and painting business for the last ten years and have installed more than 400 decoders (both sound and non-sound) including all three variations of stay alive modules (factory built, home-built - both with electrolytic caps and super caps) in engines, cabooses and passenger cars.
> 2. - I assisted TCS in the original design of their first decoders when they first went into business.
> 3. - I assisted ESU Loksound in both product design and sound scheduling along with assisting in doing the sound recording and editing for some of their files.
> 4. - On a personal basis, I designed and built a completely functional signalling system from scratch, with detection on my 24' X 26' layout.
> 5.- I designed and built my own wireless DCC throttles when what was being made commercially wasn't meeting my expectations.
> I could go on, but I hope that should satisfy your requirements as to my electronic credentials. As for the thread on the 1.5 volt bulbs, that was because I haven't USED bulbs in fifteen years and a client specified he wanted bulbs in his dummy engine to have constant brightness. If you bothered to read the entire thread, you would have seen I figured it out myself in spite of the mis-information from the other experts.
> You still want me to point out your discrepancies ? How about backing up YOUR knowledge on model railroad electronics ?
> Mark.


So he knows how [DCC] modules "Fully Function"..

02-09-2016,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=70178


Mark R. said:


> Interesting. Curious on charge and discharge rates. The cap will charge to a base voltage determined by the voltage input. How is that affected by a variable voltage input ?
> For example .... you are running your train at 8 volts, then suddenly drop it to 2 volts. Is there a slight lag as the cap discharges from its 8 volt charge down to 2 volts ? Would seem every time the throttle is decreased, there would be a discharge voltage from the cap.
> When you lift the engine, does it continue at the same speed regardless of throttle position ?
> Would be interesting to see the results were you to try the super caps with a variable voltage input. With a longer discharge rate, it may be equivalent to having a high rate of deceleration in a decoder.
> VERY interesting indeed. :smilie_daumenpos:
> Mark.


This project is "Only" for DC-V and will "Not" function "Correctly" when using --> [DCC] decoders..
Only doing "Back Up" power supply directly to the "Electric Motor"..
At the present time, this project was "Not" successful !!_:dunno:_
Where is your "expertise" when it comes to [DCC] ?? 

02-10-2016,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=70178


Mark R. said:


> Having been a proof reader for 25 years and you being a technical writer, I can't help but chuckle at your mis-use of the English language.
> As for why I'm not responding to your queries ? .... I was honestly prepared to go back through each and every item that needed elaborating upon,
> but after reading your initial responses and the rude manner in which you presented them, it was obvious you don't take criticism lightly
> and any effort on my part would no doubt be responded to in like. So, I figured it wasn't worth the effort.
> And your feeble attempts to belittle me are pure gold.
> Mark.





Mark R. said:


> I was honestly prepared to go back through each and every item that needed elaborating upon,
> Mark.


"BUT" !!!!!!!!!!
Bla Bla Bla..(Only Excuses)..__
You Will "Never" attack "My" actual posted "Manufacturing" [DCC] information that I have found on the internet..
......


----------



## Mark R.

Did you even READ the first post of the Stay Alive For DC thread ? It most certainly was successful right from the get-go. To quote the poster .... "worked like a charm".

And what the hell does my DCC expertise have anything to do with designing a stay alive circuit for DC ? Last time I played with DC was before DCC was even main stream. I converted to DCC (well, it was Command Control then) back in the 80's with the Hornby Zero-1 system and haven't looked back at DC for my own layouts since.

His only concern was the voltage drop through the single diode (which amounts to 0.7 volts). Your circuit would feed through a minimum of three diodes producing a voltage drop of more than 2 volts which would be unacceptable to the OP's requirements .... again, READ the post.

You also claim to need a resistor and diode with the capacitor. Again, this is a DC designed circuit - those two components are only needed for DCC. 

I have to question though, why are you responding to that topic here in this train wreck of a thread instead of where it belongs ?


Mark.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Guys, if the bickering doesn't cease, I'll have to close this thread. If there is a disagreement with the content, please post factual corrections and cease with all the personal name calling.

This is also not the English Grammar forum, we really don't need to argue over who misused what word.


----------



## Mark R.

Fine .... (but only because John requested it) .... Here's a few ....

Page one / post one - 
Manufactures" are now "Hiding" their wire connections.. - Decoders that have been designed AFTER the advent of stay alive modules DO have connections for adding them. Probably over three quarters of decoders out there were designed before the concept. They aren't hiding the wire connections, there ARE none because none were needed. That's like saying Ford is "hiding" the connections for your MP3 player in their 1980 cars .... they're not hiding them, they didn't exist then - but you CAN decipher where to add one yourself.

The disadvantage of a "Backup Power Supply" that there would be "No" way to initiate an "Emergency Stop".. - this blanket statement is only partly true. Some systems have two types of Emergecy Stop - your train or the whole layout. Emergency Stop for your train is a "command" to which the train WILL respond. Emergency Stop for the whole layout cuts power to the layout, in which case the stay alive module WILL take over.

Page one / post two - 
Manufacture Standards:
- ESU = Black & Red wires - ESU uses three wires. Black, red and white. The white wire is a control wire to limit the current draw for programming and to adjust the amount of stay alive the user desires

All [DCC] decoders operate as per N.M.R.A. standards.. - European decoders (ESU, Lenz, Zimo, etc.) follow NEM standards which are the European equivalent of the NMRA. A number of aspects differ between the two, most notably how the NEM standards differ in the use of the current OEM standard 21-pin plug. NMRA 21 pin plugs don't allow functions above F2 to function correctly .... although the NMRA is considering adopting the NEM standard because of this.

Pin #3 = Green (Not Used) - not sure why you say it's not used .... it's a function output wire (AUX-1), just like the violet wire (AUX-2).

Page 0ne / post four -
Some (Newer) "High Capacity Capacitors" require "Special Wiring"..(Fact) - Why are you suggesting "Different Versions - He wasn't suggesting different versions at all. All (*ALL*) commercially available stay alive devices use High Capacity Capacitors or Super Caps. Every picture you posted is of these super caps. Your argument is completely invalid on this one.

Page one / post seven -
ESU LokSound V4.0 and Select "Keep-Alive"..
"Only" uses (x1) 2,200uF 25V Capacitor.. - Did you read and understand what you linked to ? Your picture shows the connection of a home-made stay alive cap as one example. All Loksound decoders can use ANY variety of Stay Alive module (home made or commercial) just like any other decoder - not "ONLY" as your post seems to indicate.

Page one - post eight - 
LokSound micro "Only" requires 2200uF 25V (Back Up Capacitor) !! - see above. Again, not true.

Why are you informing individuals that they are "High" efficiency "Capacitors" ?? - again, see above. *ALL* commercially available stay alive modules use these types of capacitors. After all your Googling, you should know that ....

Especially "Myself" and maybe other readers do "Not"__ require a "Back Seat Driver" like yourself - back seat drivers can be helpful when the driver is making errors ....

Page one - post nine - 
There is "No" (-) direct "Ground Wire" connection !!
Every decoder has a (-) "Ground" location on the circuit board.. - What ? In the first line, you say there is no negative ground wire connect, then in the second sentence you say every decoder does have a negative ground wire connection .... glad I didn't have to rely on any of your technical manuals ....

Page three / post nine - 
I do have a direct private e-mail connection to Mark Gurries..A [DCC] electronic professional engineer..
Mark Gurries: (Private Web Site)..https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home - So ? I have exchanged private e-mails with many important people - doesn't make me an expert in their field by no means. Since we are name dropping - did you happen to notice MY name at the bottom of Mark Gurries site - http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm ? 

That's enough .... I'm bored now ....

Mark.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Prevent "All" [DCC] Track Shortages..(Add A Backup Power Supply)*



Mark R. said:


> Fine .... (but only because John requested it) .... Here's a few ....
> Mark.


Hi; [Mark R.]..
Thank You:_:smilie_daumenpos:_..
For "Finally" answered my questions that were directed to you..
--> We are "Only" here to help others !!
--> Why aren't You..__..

(#1)
I posted many different manufacture web sites..(My Very First Page)..
Thank you correcting and updating the manufacture web sites..(Outdated And Incorrect Manufacture Information)..
But is [Mark R] (100%) correct ??__..

(#2)
"NEM" [DCC] standards = European [DCC] Decoders (ESU, Lenz, Zimo, etc.)..
"NMRA" [DCC] standards = United States and Canada [DCC] Decoders..

(#3)
Sorry that the way I write (My Format) in this "Forum", is not "Correct" to your "Proof Reading" format.. 
That I should "Not" write in a "Technical Format" but in a "Forum Format".._:dunno:_..

(#4)
It seems that "Most" of my research and information, posted in this "Thread" is --> is .."Totally " .. rejected from [Mark R].._:dunno:_

==========================

My Final Conclusion:__..
Do your "Own Research" before buying a (Add A Backup Power Supply)..
......


----------



## Mark R.

We are ONLY here to help others ? Ummm - no .... there's a very high percentage who are only here to ask questions and look for answers. 

There's a lot of folks who spend every waking hour on the forums contributing to every single thread that gets posted. I'm not one of them - I don't have that kind of time to waste - hence my total post count of 149 in three years.

I WILL help if I know the answer and no one else has stepped up to assist, otherwise, not much point in adding any more to what others have already answered.

I've probably wasted more time contributing to this thread than I have the entire forum over the last three years. And speaking of wasting time, I am done with this one - your taunts no longer interest me. You're going to argue and question me no matter what I say, right, wrong or otherwise. Carry on ....

Mark.


----------



## wvgca

/deleted/


----------



## gator do 65

To all who contributed, 
Thanks for the "LAUGH!"


----------

