# Sparking Tender and possible E-Unit Help



## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Hi all.

I've got a 6466WX tender that when (while in motion) I activate the whistle throws off some significant sparks at the contact rollers. I've looked it over and haven't found a smoking gun as far as bad connections, though the rollers are pretty well worn and grooved (maybe original?) and some of the wires could stand to be replaced. Any advice on culprits I may be missing is appreciated. Pretty sure it isn't the transformer.

On my engine I've gotten it cleaned up inside and out, swapped out the front truck to help with derailing (seems to have worked) and rewired the headlamp (insulation crumbling). Aside from fixing up the nicks and scratches in the finish and a bit more of an extensive re-wiring (both projects for after holidays), I think the E-Unit isn't working correctly. If I understand this correctly, the E-Unit is responsible for the remote change of direction from the Transformer. When I activate the transformer it stops the engine, but it starts back up once releasing it. The engine is an old 2026 with a manual lever on the E-Unit, is this not meant to work remotely or do I have an issue that I may need to fix?

A little background on me and the train; this is my grandfathers train who was the original owner and we inherited after his passing almost 30 years ago. I'm an engineer but more mechanically oriented (Biomedical by degree, so we split pretty evenly between mech and EE). Last time this train ran was 20 years ago when I was a senior in high school and had no idea what I was doing. I'm getting this fixed up and some Fastrack on order to have under the christmas tree for the first time this year. My son is 4 so I figured it was a pretty good time to pull it out. I've got a pretty extensive set in the basement that I plan to fix/set up as a more permanent layout after the holidays.

I've got some pictures of various pieces if anyone would like to see them, including some shots taken last night of the Tender's workings.

Thanks!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

First off, I'd check and see if the rollers are actually rolling freely. If they're dragging and not rolling, they'll spark a lot. Another issue with old rollers is rust accumulates inside on the pin and you get poor conductivity from the roller to the frame of the tender. 

The other thing that might be happening is the whistle motor is just drawing a lot of current. That would indicate you need to do some maintenance on it, lubricating and cleaning the commutator and check the condition of the brushes.

The lever enables or disables the E-Unit reverse function. When the contact is closed, the E-Unit should cycle for each power interruption and switch F-N-R-N... If that's not happening, you need to take a closer look at the E-Unit.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks! I'll take a closer look at the rollers tonight. The motor itself looks to be in pretty good shape. I have my grandfathers cleaning/care kit as well and it looks pretty well-used, with the motors and whatnot seeming to be in very good shape. I'll see if there might be some binding going on in there though, one thing I didn't do was break it down to clean up the brush/plate and lubricate it.

On the engine I'm guessing I disabled the E-Unit then! Some playing around should sort that out pretty quick. The engaged position is a bit tricky to find. I hadn't noticed it until I took it apart for cleaning and had a closer look. Now that I know to look for it I can feel it.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

*Whistle Working - Video*

Cleaning up the commutator face and the brushes is all it took. Still a bit noisy but enough to get this running for Christmas. After the holidays the tender and engine will be the first to get some serious overhauling inside and out.

Trying to embed the video but not sure if it will work. Link is also below just in case.



http://youtu.be/QFz7LFae3DU


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hello and welcome to the site.
First the you tube embedding,

a copy and paste, I just posted this the other day.

See your you tube link that shows in your post?
When your on you tube, copy everything just past the equal sign up in the address bar.
(you know what the address bar is right?)
In yours address that would be the S4T_tu5EEYQ&feature=share, copy everything just past the = sign there in the address bar.

Now take that and come back to your posting box (the box where you are typing your post).
Look up top there is a you tube icon, click on it and something like this {yt}{yt} will be in the box. Paste what you copied on you tube in between those marks.
It will then look like this in the posting box.
{yt}S4T_tu5EEYQ&feature=share{yt}

You can go back and try it.
click edit
then click the go advanced, that opens up your posting box
Try what I explained there.
You only have 24 hrs I think it is to edit your post so hurry. It might be 48 hours.
Whatever they allow it is not long enough.
Go back and try it.

If you put that in your video should show when you post as a video. If not you copied the wrong part or it didn't get copied between the yt marks right.


Pictures sure we all love pictures.
if you don't know how I have a copy and paste for that too.

Now I will go back and read your problems.
Go back and try to embed the video if you want.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I got to make a pot of coffee.

Start you off on this e unit thread.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=24499

There are some good videos in there to look at.
You probably have the e units lever in the wrong spot.
It should not be straight up and down when your looking at the locomotive. It should be off to one side or the other.

I will be back, got to get some mud brewing.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks big_ed. Think I need to do the same. Video should be fixed. I was trying to use the Embed link you can get on YouTube and never would have stumbled onto the actual fix.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well if you sneeze you can miss the video. 
Yes it worked.

They are normally a bit noisy all the time, did you run across this thread yet?
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2317


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

I hadnt actually, very helpful and answered some of the other wiring questions i had. The wires from the contact rollers need replacement badly, i just wasnt sure if what was on there was the correct type to begin with. That matches the wiring scheme of mine exactly though.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

I hadnt realized that cental bar was a wick either... I oiled the bar on both sides but will add some there before closing it back up.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

2026Engine said:


> I hadnt realized that cental bar was a wick either... I oiled the bar on both sides but will add some there before closing it back up.


That is for the bushing on the armature shaft, a drop of oil will keep the bushing lubricated automatically for you.
Don't over oil, just a drop to keep the wick saturated every once and a while, when it needs it.

The whistle sounds good, did you try it with the shell on?


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Not yet. The screw housings on the inside are all broken off, probably derailed one too many times? Going to pick up some longer machine thread screws today to redill a bit deeper and fix it up. Then its on to fixing the rear truck on the caboose.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

2026Engine said:


> Not yet. The screw housings on the inside are all broken off, probably derailed one too many times? Going to pick up some longer machine thread screws today to redill a bit deeper and fix it up. Then its on to fixing the rear truck on the caboose.


I will be in and out on the site all day. 
Had to run to the doc's office and get my arm poked for a blood test that was overdue. Doc was mad at me, but I had my reasons so now she isn't. 

T man has fixed those screw posts before, he is the Epoxy King.:thumbsup:
I looked for a thread but couldn't find it, maybe he will find it for you.
There is mention of the screw post in the thread I posted above here it is again, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2317
But I can't find a fix thread that he did. If he did one?

Just place the shell on and blow the whistle, you don't have to screw it to listen.
I looked for a thread on quieting the whistle down and couldn't find that either.
Someone here gave recommendations, maybe whoever it was will add to the thread here.

While your at it blow out the whistle air intake ports with a can of air or compressor air.
Sometimes spiders or something take up residence inside and will affect the whistles sound.

In the beginning of this thread are some pictures of a different whistle, you can see what took up residence in one of my acquired trains I bought from someone here on the site.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=11948

Even though there may not be anything in there you can't see what is inside, just blow them out while you have it off. If you want, just a suggestion.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The springs have to be in good shape for the center rollers. I had one that would short out the track.

I just can't find the tender fix. I grind the posts down and with some tape, form a wall and fill with epoxy then drill and tap.

It may be in the attachments that I have 53 pages of. That is why I went to photobucket, just to organize and find pics.

Be sure to oil both sides of the armature, especially the whistle side. If it does not quiet down the brushplate is worn, and replacing that will help. Give the oil some time to work. It has been quiet for a while.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

How about taking something like hollow tube the right size and tap some threads into it?
Then just epoxy the tube in place and paint it black. You eliminate the need for shaping and drilling.
Brass tubing? Copper? Aluminum? Steel? plastic?
What do you think?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

What t man said, the whistle side needs a bit more oil, I run and oil it, run and oil it. Off the track so tou dont get oil on it. That should quit it down a bit. As for the shell, theres probably lots of was to fix it. Also make sure the tension is good on the pick up rollers , if they are too loose they might bounce causing sparks. Good luck.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks all. When you say the armature do you mean the axle that spins, including the impeller on the whistle side? And the brushplate is the copper 3 part plate that spins against the brushes, yes? Need to make sure I have the terminology correct. 

So which part is the commutator?

And is it normal for there to be sparks gapping between the brushes and brushplate when it spins? Think I need new brushes and a better cleaning for both engine and tender anyway...

As for the shell, about 2/3 of the housing for the screw remains so I can just drill it out for a longer screw. I can probably swing by the machine shop at work to ream and tap the holes. The epoxy route sounds like alot of work for a simple problem, but I'll admit I can't think of anything better offhand.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

2026Engine said:


> Thanks all. When you say the armature do you mean the axle that spins, including the impeller on the whistle side? And the brushplate is the copper 3 part plate that spins against the brushes, yes? Need to make sure I have the terminology correct.
> 
> So which part is the commutator?
> 
> ...











The brush plate is the thing that holds the brushes in, when you remove it you see the commutator the copper thing. It should be nice and shiny not like this one this one is dirty. The armature is the axle that spins the commutator, that rides on bushings you want to keep them oiled. On the opposite side of the brush plate is the armature plate.

More pictures are in the link I linked above, this one, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2317
Though they are not named there.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Ok, thats what I had thought, good to know I'm not that far off.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

A bit of sparking on the brushes is normal, I clean them with alcohol, and the tubes they go in too. Also clean up the communicator with a scotch brute pad. Usually the brushes are OK. Post some pictures.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Ugh, it's a pain! The leads to the housings for the brushes are both soldered on, so I can't lift it away too far without some soldering work. The working ends of the brushes are all mushroomed out very slightly though and you can see scoring on them once I cleaned with alcohol. They definitely need replacing. The commutator face came relatively clean, but I plan to sand it down after the holidays for a nice clean shine.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just use the scotch brite, no need to sand if its not grooved. The brushes and other parts can be purchased at the train tender for reasonable prices and shipping.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

http://www.ttender.com/

Jeff's a good parts man to deal with.
But before you order make a list so you save on the shipping.

There are other parts like clips and things that work on a lot of different trains and good to have in the parts box. On his site lists a bulk buy part and you save buying them in bulk.
Like brushes too, some work on a lot of engines.

I ought to make a list of commonly used items good to have in the parts box, I thought I did once for myself. It is just a matter of finding it. Or else after I got them I threw the list away as I had them all.:dunno:
Maybe as I go along I will make a list and post it here.
How many trains do you have? Do you have a lot of older rolling stock? Like I said some things get used on many trains and are good to have. And you save on the shipping.

And if you have a question call him, most likely he will know the answer. And you won't be bothering him as he likes to talk trains.
Also he will vacuum pack each different item and label them so you know what they are. A lot of other places you buy parts from will just toss them into a bag all mixed together. And it leaves you wondering what is what.

Jeff deals with checks or money orders only, most of the time he ships his stuff out before he even gets the check. But you don't have to worry about dealing with him.

Unless you have a local hobby shop not the big ones something like a moms and pops type, they should have some brushes?


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks. I've got a growing list actually. I need to replace alot of the contact rollers on the cars I have due to springs and surface wear. A quick list of what i have:
2026 engine, the 48-49 version and tender to match. Both will get some paint to cover nicks and whatnot before setting up.
















6440 set of Pullman cars. Some dings and scratches, rollers all need replacing but work, light fixtures should be replaced as well.
477618 caboose, badly needs a new contact roller, spring in it is nearly useless.








A couple plastic stock cars still packed away as well as a flatbed with ladder and a gondola car. I just picked up the latter 2 off ebay figuring my son and niece would enjoy them once its under the tree.

I've got a ton of the older O27 rails, switches, automatic couplers and some various accessories, all of which I have yet to go through to check. I've ordered some Fastrack for use under the tree instead.


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

Just a quick update: did some touch up to the finish of the engine to cover the nick and scratches. Still no luck with the e-unit though. It will stop when actuated, but starts back up in the same direction when released. Doesn't go into neutral, doesn't reverse. I'm guessing a mechanical issue with the plunger\pawl, or the solenoid. Probably a project for after the holidays but any suggestions appreciated!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Did you play with the e unit switch at the top? It sounds like its stuck in forward only. It cleaned up nicely! Goog job!


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## 2026Engine (Aug 1, 2014)

I did, and thanks. I've played around with the switch a bit and no luck. It's been in reverse before, but not sure how i got it going forward again. Maybe I'll have some luck figuring it out once it's under the tree and running more often. We'll see.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Intro to eunit. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6748&page=3


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

2026Engine said:


> I did, and thanks. I've played around with the switch a bit and no luck. It's been in reverse before, but not sure how i got it going forward again. Maybe I'll have some luck figuring it out once it's under the tree and running more often. We'll see.


The direction the loco runs is determined by the
loco's E unit.

It has a solenoid that operates each time you
give power to the track. It alternates between
forward and reverse.

The lever disconnects the solenoid so that it doesn't
operate, thus the the loco
runs forward (or reverse) only. The lever, itself,
does not determine forward or reverse.

Dirty or worn contacts in the E unit will impair
smooth running.

Don


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

If it's a conventional e-unit (the likely scenario), then the loco with toggle with each power-up to the track it's direction, as follows:

Fwd, Neutral, Reverse, Neutral, Fwd, Neutral, Reverse, Neutral, etc.

If you disengage the lever (push it over, so that the e-unit solenoid is no longer powered), then the loco will operate in the NEXT cycle position from where it was last run.

TJ


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