# Warning to all!



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

do not ever ' I repeat ever ' run a tyco train on a DCC layout. you can get away with running newer trains that are DC on DCC layouts but if you put a tyco locomotive on a DCC layout it will just smoke like crazy then the motor will never run again. How do I know this you may ask, well last night I had gotten done oiling and maintaining my Silver Streak which had been having some difficulty's and i figured i'd just quickly test it on my DCC layout as i could run other DC trains on my DCC layout, and poof there the engine was billowing smoke out of its windows. Thankfully I had the exact same motor in a Chattanoga diesel I bought at an estate auction and decided to take the motor out of the Chatanooga and make the Nooga a dummy and the Silver Streak working again as i speak i'm about to go and test my soldering job and see how it runs. Hopefully all will go well.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

GC,

I'm not a DCC guy, and I'll 'fess up that I know very little about such systems, but ...

A DCC setup is powered via a step-function AC signal. I.e., the voltage is varying very rapidly from + to -, with time duration between each step indicative of coded info that's being sent to a DCC-equiped (with chip decoder) loco.

In putting your old-school DC Tyco loco on the DCC system, that high-frequency AC power likely fried the DC (permanent magnet) motor.

Again, I know little of what I speak here, so take with a grain of salt ...

TJ


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

your right that is exactly what it did but the manuel for the ez-command system which i own says you can run dc trains on it for a while as long as they don't sit idle for that time. I even did this with a non-DCC locomotive from athearn and no it's not DCC ready. thats why i went ahead and did it i didn't think anything would happen to the locomotive and it took about 5 to 10 secs for the motor to smoke then nothing which is far less than i ran the athearn on the layout thats why i'm warning people so as to not destroy these tyco trains.


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## Smokestack Lightning (Oct 31, 2010)

AC and DC don't mix..Unless you are talking about Back in Black


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

GC,

I had posted the following in another thread a while back. Again, I'm no DCC guru, but I believe the comments below about "zero stretching" and the risks in running DC on DCC are valid. You should read the extended info in the cited link ... excellent DCC explanations, in my opionion.

TJ



tjcruiser said:


> Gents,
> 
> I did a little reading, and it all comes down to something called "zero stretching" which is essentially breaking the conventional constant-voltage DC power into a stepwise series of square-wave power pulses.
> 
> ...


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

gc53dfgc said:


> your right that is exactly what it did but the manuel for the ez-command system which i own says you can run dc trains on it for a while as long as they don't sit idle for that time. I even did this with a non-DCC locomotive from athearn and no it's not DCC ready. thats why i went ahead and did it i didn't think anything would happen to the locomotive and it took about 5 to 10 secs for the motor to smoke then nothing which is far less than i ran the athearn on the layout thats why i'm warning people so as to not destroy these tyco trains.


no matter how you look at this , it is extreamly unhealthy for DC motor to be exposed to AC current. manual can say whatever. the promised DC compatibility is there for marketing purpose only and shouln't have existed.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

The Power Torque motors in the Tyco locos have small magnets in the to start with. The armature is also much smaller and not tightly wound compared to many other locos such as Athearn BB. These could be contributing factors to why the Tyco fried.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

ok thanks all. I will get all my BB transfered to DCC. probably another thread somewhere but how would i get those tyco engines to DCC and steamers also? Oh and i will never run another DC train on DCC track EVER! (I will also sharpie out the part in the manuel that say you can.)


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

you didn't get any oil on the armature or near the brushes, did you?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

maybe...


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

let me guess by doing this i have inadvertently destroyed the motor some how not by the DCC but by getting some oil on the motor (don't know the exact name) round hole in the motor truck thingy mabob?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

getting oil on the contact/brushes of any dc motor is bad. it gets extremely hot, melts the springs, melts the brushes, melts the commutator etc...

is this what fryed your loco? possibly. you can't run a dc loco on ac current. it won't happen. but if you have ran regular dc loco's on dcc current before then it's not ac to my knowledge no dc motor will run on ac current. at least when i was younger i was never able to run a dc ho scale engine with a ac controller. therefor i have my doubts about dcc being ac.i dunno enough about it to know for sure. but imo. if you have ran dc motors on dcc, it shouldn't have made a difference wether it was a tyco motor or athearn motor.







the good news is, old tyco loco's are a dime a dozen. it's a great time to start learning how to rebuild that motor  if i were you i'd pull it apart, watch out for the springs and brushes, clean the armature and brushes in the sink with the drain plugged. dry them very well. do not put it back together wet. see if you can stretch the springs out some and put it back together. most likely those springs are toast, but you might get lucky. theres only 2 screws thathold the brush plate cover on. if the brushes are still intact and nothing is melted on the armature you should be good to go. 



i just sold a whole junk box full of tyco parts that prob.had everything you need to rebuild that motor in it. lol


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> you can't run a dc loco on ac current. it won't happen. but if you have ran regular dc loco's on dcc current before then it's not ac to my knowledge no dc motor will run on ac current. at least when i was younger i was never able to run a dc ho scale engine with a ac controller. therefor i have my doubts about dcc being ac.i dunno enough about it to know for sure. but imo. if you have ran dc motors on dcc, it shouldn't have made a difference wether it was a tyco motor or athearn motor.


Doug,

Read my comments and, more especially, the link I gave in Post #5.

DCC is a "step function" AC voltage, rather than a sinusoidal traditional AC voltage. DC locos can run on DCC (though this is NOT recommended!!!) using something called "zero stretching", where the positive-voltage steps outweight the negative-voltage steps, thereby tricking the loco to think it's receiving a net-sum positive DC voltage. Read the link ... it'll explain.

Again, not recommended, though ... too risky for an old DC motor.

TJ


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

definatly to risky for an old tyco motor which i may or may not have worsened by oiling it in possibly the wrong spot.
here is the link to the very similar motor that was (RIP) in my Tyco Silver Streak.
http://goingincirclez.com/TycoTrains/Guide/PowerTorqueRepair
and yes I aperently oiled the armeture by mistake.
now how on earth am i going to get to the armeture and brushes as the motor truck in mine is more solid then this one?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gc53dfgc said:


> definatly to risky for an old tyco motor which i may or may not have worsened by oiling it in possibly the wrong spot.
> here is the link to the very similar motor that was (RIP) in my Tyco Silver Streak.
> http://goingincirclez.com/TycoTrains/Guide/PowerTorqueRepair
> and yes I aperently oiled the armeture by mistake.
> now how on earth am i going to get to the armeture and brushes as the motor truck in mine is more solid then this one?


cut the wires going to the motor unscrew if the can be unscrewed. pop the truck out, take the 2 or 3 screws in the bottom of the truck out drop the wheels out then pop the brush cover off.


tjcruiser, i read what ya posted. but imo. i still believe if he's ran a dc loco on dcc before, this isn't what fryed this motor. i believe it was the excessive oil... and for future refrence NEVER NEVER EVER GET OIL ON THE BRUSHES/COMMUTATOR dcc or not. this will ruin a engine quick. ou have no idea how many engines i have ruined with oil.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

x_doug_x said:


> tjcruiser, i read what ya posted. but imo. i still believe if he's ran a dc loco on dcc before, this isn't what fryed this motor. i believe it was the excessive oil... and for future refrence NEVER NEVER EVER GET OIL ON THE BRUSHES/COMMUTATOR dcc or not. this will ruin a engine quick. ou have no idea how many engines i have ruined with oil.


Yeah, I'm certainly not disagreeing with you there. Sorry if I gave that impression.

TJ


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i agree with you, it's prob. not good to run a dc motor on dcc because of the pulsing current. i think that it is something that will cause a motor to burn up over time. but in this case, i truly think it was the oil that caused his damage before the dcc got a chance too. but yes tj, i did read what you said and thanks for the good information. i have to say, i am getting educated on dcc. ty.



and sorry about the capslock, that wasn't directed towards you really. just informing any others out there how critical it is if you get oil on the commutator or brushes. it can cause damage!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

ok all i want to clear something up.

i took upart the motor and lowal and behold the spring had somehow comeout of its place but the brushes were all still in there place. put everything back together and walla it rand like it was brand new again. Don't ask me how that spring got out of it's spot behind the brush without moving the brush i'm still trying to figure that one out myself.

Sadly i have other bad news to report...

My Bachmann SD 40-2 DCC on board train called it quits today. I was doing some maintnence work on it oiling and took out the brushes and springs and cleaned them put the first one in fine but lost the second spring so i cut the first one in half and lengthened it and put it all back together as i had no spare parts. then some wires came unsoldered so i resoldered those and the motor would turn on all by itself even if the DCC controler was set to zero. then the two front wires came undone (this is what i think destroyed the decoder) this probably caused to much power to go through the one part of the decoder so it no longer responded to the controller and would make a couple of beeping noises and lurch forward and repeat. I tried everything to reprogram it to no avail then i lost the half of a spring i had so now the train needs a new motor (just for saftey) as the old one before i worked on it was loud to loud and a brand new decoder. I think i will just goahead and save up for a brand new tsunami sound decoder for it though. (RIP CSX #8217 you've worked a hard life and deserve a break.) dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun...


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

thats quite a debuckle. but i never had luck with bachman factory decoders so i feel it is not much of a loss. motor on the other hand, hmm. why not contact bachmann for spare parts?


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## David-Stockwell (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi all,

I'm just a little curious about DC and DCC!!

If any engine runs slow and smoothly on DC, Why go to DCC on small to medium size layouts??

My last layout in N scale was (7 1/2 x 12 1/2 feet) and I ran DC only!! I could run 2 trains over my layout using 2 mrc controllers and run another engine for switching with another controller without any promlems

My thought was that DCC was only needed if you had a large walk around layout where you needed to unplug your controller from one spot and plug it in at another location and still control other trains at the same time. I know most of the R.R. clubs used DCC.

Cheers, Dave


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

The pont of a dcc system is that you can run more than one trains on the mainline and do consists. this is not possible with dc as only one train will move and the other will move very slowly. dcc lets you have hundreds of trains running at once if you have enough amps for more prototypicality, sound many more functions like bell activation and shutdowns and start ups (that last statement made me think of the chiken and the egg thing) so you could have to trains running at different parts of your layout without needing track seperaters and multiple controlers. the walk around versions are indeed made for large layouts and are wireless so no pluging and unplugging. good for small layouts as well because you can walk along with the locomotive feel to make it more realistic especially with sound.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

GC,

Nice, concise explanation. Well said.

TJ


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Anton,
i know some Bachmann products are not made well but all my locomotives from bachmann are all running fine but they are only dc though i have never done any maintnence to them as i really didn't understand how to safely till a few months ago and i noticed a very good increase in there performance with a good amount of oiling. Anyways hopefully for Christmas i will get the new Tsunami sound decoder i want for the loco (can you believe a $100 dollars for one of them things) definatly going to have my local hobby shop install it for me just to be sure i don't screw anything up. (something that expensive is something i'm just not yet comfortable messing with.)


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

thanks tj,
learning more and more about DCC as i go along and well as pointed out in the above post with a few casualitys.


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