# Loco's in the middle of the train?



## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

When we were driving through Montana today, we passed a coal train the had four loco's up front, one in back, but had five in the middle. Why would you put five (or any for that matter) in the middle of the train?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cabledawg said:


> When we were driving through Montana today, we passed a coal train the had four loco's up front, one in back, but had five in the middle. Why would you put five (or any for that matter) in the middle of the train?



Was it a long train? I read something as to why but can't remember why.

Long hill, lots of coal cars, lot of weight?

maybe to help slow it down on the downstroke?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Guess they needed more motive power.  They could have also been "deadheading" those engines and not actually using them.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Wasnt really long and of the five three were running, so I dont know. That's why I asked. I've seen quite a few trains with one or two at the back to help control the slack when slowing down or going downhill, but never any inthe middle.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I recall seeing a train with a couple of engines in the middle, but I couldn't tell if they were running.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

These three were smokin pretty good, almost like they were diong all the work.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

We'll just have to wait for the real train experts to show up and explain it. 

Here's some info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push-pull_train

Being in Montana and being a coal train, I can see a scenario where they had some steep hills to climb and descend, perhaps they needed the extra power and braking?


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I read that UP and some others are trying what is called distributed power. The idea is that by placing locomotives throughout the constant rather than at just the ends not only longer and heavier trains can be run but trains will use less fuel. The problem with long trains is that they attempt to 'straighten out' on turns. This causes the wear on the rails. Also the slack in the train is constantly fighting the train as it climbs the hill. As a train with engins distributed in it climbs a hill the slack is only fighting the engins on the hill. The down side is that the equipment is expensive to add to the locomotives.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Well I guess that all makes sense. Mystery solved.

On a side note, I discovered a new road name: Montana Rail Link. They operate the mainline through Montana for BNSF.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

UP and other railroads have done this for ages. They did it with steam as well. What adding engine in the middle does is help distribute the tractive effort of the engines more efficiently over a larger area then all in the front. This is mainly used for trains that require going up steep grades and in some cases very long trains. This also makes it more efficient getting the whole train moving.

It also can occur where one train will be attached to another train for a run over a large mountain and to save time and space they just hook the two together and off they go. All of this thanks to MU technology. For steam they had radios or people running along top the freight car to relay if more or less power was needed from the engines in the middle or end of the train.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

cabledawg, Wasn't that a cool sight too see.
Flat landers never get to see a sight like that! I get them coming by my place all the time, they are helpers. Key being that you seen them hauling coal or ore in montana, some of the tracks are not only steep But also have some tight radius curves alon there routes too! A lot of the tracks were from the logging days. They put helpers in the middle to keep from pulling or pushing the cars off the tracks on tight turns on a grade up or down. Probably the reason for so many engines is that montana rail link only has smaller units to work with so they just more of them! I caught a train running by the other day that had 9 engines on front 4 in the middle and 2 on the rear, it is a cool looking sight, when it get's a little warmer I'll have to take my lawn chair out there with a cooler and spend the day and get some video of it. I wanted to put a web cam up to watch the tracks but I might get in trouble???


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

NIMT said:


> cabledawg, Wasn't that a cool sight too see.
> Flat landers never get to see a sight like that! I get them coming by my place all the time, they are helpers. Key being that you seen them hauling coal or ore in montana, some of the tracks are not only steep But also have some tight radius curves alon there routes too! A lot of the tracks were from the logging days. They put helpers in the middle to keep from pulling or pushing the cars off the tracks on tight turns on a grade up or down. Probably the reason for so many engines is that montana rail link only has smaller units to work with so they just more of them! I caught a train running by the other day that had 9 engines on front 4 in the middle and 2 on the rear, it is a cool looking sight, when it get's a little warmer I'll have to take my lawn chair out there with a cooler and spend the day and get some video of it. I wanted to put a web cam up to watch the tracks but I might get in trouble???


Put a security camera up. As long as it is in your property the U.S. or the railroad can do nothing about it. It is not breaking any laws.


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

NIMT said:


> cabledawg, Wasn't that a cool sight too see.
> Flat landers never get to see a sight like that! I get them coming by my place all the time, they are helpers. Key being that you seen them hauling coal or ore in montana, some of the tracks are not only steep But also have some tight radius curves alon there routes too! A lot of the tracks were from the logging days. They put helpers in the middle to keep from pulling or pushing the cars off the tracks on tight turns on a grade up or down. Probably the reason for so many engines is that montana rail link only has smaller units to work with so they just more of them! I caught a train running by the other day that had 9 engines on front 4 in the middle and 2 on the rear, it is a cool looking sight, when it get's a little warmer I'll have to take my lawn chair out there with a cooler and spend the day and get some video of it. I wanted to put a web cam up to watch the tracks but I might get in trouble???


Hmmmm...........Sooooooo Sean would that be a true Consist with a few in the middle?    :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: 

I bought a Harbor Freight Security Cam for $25 Color and sound works great for the price. I need to get the 4 camera DVR system. Records for like 2 weeks.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Sean, I looked up MRL last night before I went to bed and found out they run mostly SD40's, but just recently recieved the first of thier SD70's, so I can understand why they need so many loco's for one train.

Now here's another question for the crew: Why would Norfolk Southern be running loco's in Montana? We saw quite a few in consist with BNSF and even one with just NS leading a string of empty well cars. I thought NS was an east coast line?

Edit: Answered my own question. According to Wiki, NS participates in a loco leasing program with the other big three (UP, BNSF, and CSX) railroads. See you learn something new everyday =)


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That would be a cool thing to try. Do a lash-up of a couple of engines and put one in the middle of a train.


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## Jammer Six (Feb 10, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> All of this thanks to MU technology.


What's "MU technology"?


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## Canadian Car Knocker (Feb 8, 2011)

CN has been running DP trains outta Winnipeg for a few years now. PRO's Air source on each end so you can run longer trains in winter, less draw bar wear, DP trains with tail end units don't require a SBU, when you set the air on the train the tail end releses alot faster.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Jammer Six said:


> What's "MU technology"?


MU technology stands for Multiple unit technology. Before it was around it required and engineer and conductor in each unit for steam. and for the very beginning diesels. multiple unit technology comes on every diesel engine standard now. Their are a series or electrical and other cables that go from the main unit to the engines behind it so just one crew is required to operate a lot of locomotives. Now for in the middle engine I would imagine since frieght cars do not have the MU cables equipped on them (that i know of) that the adding of a wireless type system would need to be installed to run the loco as if it was just behind the lead engine instead of in the middle or end. I think it might even come standard on the newest SD series and dash series locomotives now adays.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I suspect that there's at least one guy on the middle engines, but who knows.


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I suspect that there's at least one guy on the middle engines, but who knows.


Yea John Imagine the middle engine running full throttle (mechanical failure) when it was time to stop!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Like that one that got away that was posted a few weeks ago?


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Like that one that got away that was posted a few weeks ago?


Do you mean mine? Oops!  :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nope, not yours this time. I was referring to the runaway train that was posted a while back.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Are we talking about a thread or Unstopable?


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