# FNG Layout



## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

My first layout draft. Obviously the track could be layed this way. Would it be possible to run a single train in both directions on this layout? Can it be wired to do so remotely? Sorry for the crap photo.

Is there any good freeware available for designing a new layout?

Thxs.


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## ncrc5315 (Jan 25, 2014)

I think Atlas, has a free layout software.
www.atlasrr.com


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

It's hard to tell from the picture is it going to be a full oval around the outside, and a dogbone shape on the inside, or is the line on the bottom part erased? If it's both then you can use the dogbone as a passing siding. It also looks like you have a little shortcut that cuts across the middle, is that right? If it is a short cut it's going to cause a short circuit because the train will actually start heading in the other direction. You will have to put in a reversing loop circuit.


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

Not a full oval around the outside. Not sure what a passing siding is...need to look that up. The shortcut is how the direction gets reversed. Want to be able to run clockwise or counterclockwise around the dogbone. Not an electrical engineer but I suspected a short circuit would be possible. It sounds doable if I can get my head around the reversing loop.

Updated image. Hope that helps. Thxs.


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

A passing siding is a section of track off of the main line that is long enough to park a train on or used to pass another train. If your layout is DC you can also isolate them from the rest of the track with a switch so you can shut the power to that section to park a train.

If you are using DCC the reversing loop is pretty easy, but you usually want the "reversing loop" section of track longer than your longest train. You can buy an auto reversing circuit that senses the polarity change and changes automatically. In DCC the direction the loco moves in is not directly controlled by the direction of the current. It's controlled by the digital command sent by the chip.

In the DC world you have to change both the direction of the locomotive and the polarity of the rails (this took me awhile to wrap my head around). 

My layout started in the same shape as yours, but without the yard in the middle. I just had two short sections of track to park trains. I extended the two short parking sections into two reversing loops on each end. This lead to one little section of track that always seemed to have trains going head on with each other. 

This may make that small shortcut section a bit more work than you want for your layout. I'm sure you can make it work, but I just wanted to share my experience.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Rook

The easy way to understand how to avoid
short circuits when designing a layout is to
draw it out using RED for the RIGHT rail and
BLACK for the left rail. Any time (usually at
turnouts) that the RED rail touches the BLACK
rail you have a short circuit.

This occurs when you have 'reverse loops' such
as you have where the top track through a turnout
connects to the bottom track and enables a train to
turn around and go the opposite direction on the
same track.

In the instance of your layout after you turn the
train around to go in the other direction, by using
only one crossover you would have to back up the
train to again reverse it.

While DCC can control a reverse loop automatically,
you can manually switch the reverse loop when using
DC, it's just more complicated to wire and awkward to use.

Don


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

DonR said:


> Rook
> 
> The easy way to understand how to avoid
> short circuits when designing a layout is to
> ...


Was hoping the layout software would do some of the red and black for me. Is there an easier way to reverse within a dogbone layout?

The Atlas software helped me with the overall dimensions of my layout. Seems limited to predefined sections of track...namely Atlas. But it got me where I needed to be for now. Wonder if JMRI or Train Controller software provide layout design functionality.

Was able to hack this out...should go back and read the tutorial for a proper project.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

If you are running in a clockwise direction you can take the reversing section to go counter-clockwise, but once going counter-clockwise you can't get back to clockwise without backing through the reversing section.


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

I used Any Rail to plan my layout. Pretty easy to use and free (up to 100 pieces I think)

https://www.anyrail.com/en

Mike


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

Are you planning on running DCC or DC?


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

sachsr1 said:


> Are you planning on running DCC or DC?


Still trying to figure out exactly what DC is in the train world. To me it means Direct Current...a transformer with a rheostat. I think you guys call it a potentiometer. It's not really a train term, but I don't have better terminology (for older style train power) so I can't gripe about it.

Regardless I'll be using DCC. At least to start with. Want to avoid manual operations if possible. Also still learning what DCC is... A/C current to the rails with additional milliamp signals for control?

Are these (DC, DCC) the only 2 options?

This train business is 2 steps forward and one back so far. I know the answers are in this forum it just takes time to read everything and digest.

Thxs


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

There can be a lot to assimilate, but it's really not that hard once you wade into it. You might consider investing in one of the introductory books on DCC by Kalmbach Publishing. They make several good ones (available at hobby shops, train shows, Amazon, or the Kalmbach website).

You are correct. DC is just that: direct current. A rheostat / potentiometer built into what we usually call a power pack (or erroneously, a transformer) which supplies current to the rails. These directly feed (through the loco wheels) an electric motor. Increasing current increases speed; changing polarity reverses direction. Dead simple, if all you have is one loco at a time on a fairly simple layout (no reversing loops).

DCC takes this to another level. It's kind of a weird AC with a square waveform, but don't worry about that. Suffice it to say that the rails are always powered at a constant voltage, and a small circuit card in the loco takes digital commands from a control unit and adjusts the motor / lights / sound (if installed) as necessary. Each locomotive can be controlled separately, up to the limit of the system's capacity (which is at least 100 decoder addresses, so generally not a problem).

There are several flavors of DCC -- full featured systems (Digitrax, MRC, NCE, and others), limited systems (Bachmann EZ Command), things that work the same but are proprietary (MTH's DCS system). There are also Bluetooth controls (similar to DCC, except for the input method), Dead Rail (where the power supply is on the train), and maybe a few more that I'm forgetting about. There are advantages and disadvantages to each; you basically pick what works for you.


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

I found it hard to digest all the info at first. I think it boils down to if you aren't sure of the basic terminology (vocabulary) it's hard to understand the entire topic. Once you learn the vocab it's easier to grasp the entire subject. I think of DCC like a smartphone or a computer. I don't understand exactly how they work or understand the coding, but I know how to click things to make that happen. When I move the throttle on my DCC controller the train moves, but I don't know how that command is sent, nor do I care. When I tap someone's name in my contacts the phone calls them, and that's all I care about.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

sachsr1 said:


> I found it hard to digest all the info at first. I think it boils down to if you aren't sure of the basic terminology (vocabulary) it's hard to understand the entire topic. Once you learn the vocab it's easier to grasp the entire subject. I think of DCC like a smartphone or a computer. I don't understand exactly how they work or understand the coding, but I know how to click things to make that happen. When I move the throttle on my DCC controller the train moves, but I don't know how that command is sent, nor do I care. When I tap someone's name in my contacts the phone calls them, and that's all I care about.


Never heard DCC described like tha before but it’s very true. I think when he starts running DCC the ‘scales will be lifted from his eyes’ and all will become clear.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I don't use the computer track design systems so am
unsure that any of their will do the red/black tracks.
You might have to do that yourself. Just trace the
product of your design system with color pens.

Most of us avoid using sectional track. It limits
your curve radius to what they offer. It is also
more prone to loss of electrical conductivity due
to the excessive number of joiners. You would find
flex track easier to use and it offers smoother running.

There are 3 ways to turn a train around:

1. The reverse loop as you have on your drawing
but with ability to turn around in both directions.
2. A wye which usually takes up a lot of area.
3. A turntable, but it is limited to turning the locomotive
only.

To make possible turning your trains without need
to back up you would need to install an 'X' crossing and
2 more turnouts in the center of the layout.
It would also require 2 reverse loop
controllers if DCC or a lot of switches and complex wiring
if DC. 

Don


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> DCC takes this to another level. It's kind of a weird AC with a square waveform, but don't worry about that. Suffice it to say that the rails are always powered at a constant voltage, and a small circuit card in the loco takes digital commands from a control unit and adjusts the motor / lights / sound (if installed) as necessary. Each locomotive can be controlled separately, up to the limit of the system's capacity (which is at least 100 decoder addresses, so generally not a problem).
> 
> There are several flavors of DCC -- full featured systems (Digitrax, MRC, NCE, and others), limited systems (Bachmann EZ Command), things that work the same but are proprietary (MTH's DCS system). There are also Bluetooth controls (similar to DCC, except for the input method), Dead Rail (where the power supply is on the train), and maybe a few more that I'm forgetting about. There are advantages and disadvantages to each; you basically pick what works for you.


I'm good with the "decoder is a circuit board" part. Going to delay my control questions till all my layout concerns are cleared. Maybe we can pick this up in the "controllers" thread we all commented on earlier today.



sachsr1 said:


> if you aren't sure of the basic terminology (vocabulary) it's hard to understand the entire topic. Once you learn the vocab it's easier to grasp the entire subject. I think of DCC like a smartphone or a computer. I don't understand exactly how they work or understand the coding, but I know how to click things to make that happen.


You nailed it...if you dont know the vocabulary it is difficult to ask the right question. I want to run the train from my laptop. Understanding the flow of current will help me figure out what to click on to make the train perform. I hope:smokin:



Cycleops said:


> Never heard DCC described like tha before but it’s very true. I think when he starts running DCC the ‘scales will be lifted from his eyes’ and all will become clear.


Need all the prayers I can get!



DonR said:


> There are 3 ways to turn a train around:
> 
> 1. The reverse loop as you have on your drawing
> but with ability to turn around in both directions.
> ...


Lets stick with the dogbone layout for now, option #1.


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

See 4 different ways to change direction. 2 Switches and 3 Blocks of track. Red lines indicate train operation not polarity. Arrow heads indicate forward facing position of the loco. Fig 3&4 step #2 the train is backing up. Again sorry for the shitty images. Am I close? Block BA is the reversing loop? Vocabulary okay?

















Thxs Everyone


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, you are close...actually quite right. A train can
change direction by going through the crossover forward,
but to again change direction it would have to back
up through the same crossover.

The crossover between the lower track and
upper track does create a 'reverse loop'. You can
isolate the right hand loop with insulated joiners.
The crossover section is actually too short to use
as the isolated section so either the left or right loop
must be used.
It would be powered through a DCC reverse loop
controller. Or, if DC, you would need a set of
Double pole double throw switches to make it
work.

Don


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

A little positive reinforcement goes a long way at this stage. Can you tell I've never operated a layout...haha. Now I can focus on the bench work with some certainty. I think I need a programming track somewhere on my layout. It needs to be isolate from the dogbone? Any other essential layout elements I need to know about?

BTW all you guys are very helpful!

Meanwhile found the threads on bluetooth and wireless, going to take awhile to read them. Its great to see some product names to help me organize. Don't mind spending a little money on something that works. But basically I'm cheap as hell.

Is CTI the State of the Art? It has hardware and software. What are the basic items needed to start a layout? Power of course. I still need a DCC product (the DCC protocol and decoders) between the programming software on my input device? The OSI 7 layer model popped into my head. I need a Lan like LocoNet?

Might be okay with a remote but for some reason the display size makes it unattractive. Guess I am still trying to give myself a sense of direction with all the components. Suppose it could be a combination of input devices.

Regarding decoders....what is the difference between a DBTC-decoder-board over DCC-decoder-board? Keep me on the tracks please. Trying to stay away from proprietary products that don't play well?

Did find this book online. https://books.google.com/books?id=6...AO#v=onepage&q=reverse turnout switch&f=false
Guess I forgot how to title a link...lol


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Rook said:


> A little positive reinforcement goes a long way at this stage. Can you tell I've never operated a layout...haha. Now I can focus on the bench work with some certainty. I think I need a programming track somewhere on my layout. It needs to be isolate from the dogbone? Any other essential layout elements I need to know about?
> 
> BTW all you guys are very helpful!
> 
> ...


Let's start with the easy one. You should have found a lot more books than that. 

I would recommend this one: https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12488 (it's available from other sources as well).

If you really want a book on wiring; get this one: https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12448 It's specific to DCC, rather than just the generic wiring book you found.

Now for the rest.
1) You don't need a programming track on your layout. Mine is a 3' length of flextrack mounted to a scrap of 1x3. It has a coupler height gauge at one end, and the NMRA recommended car weights marked along the side. To use it as a programming track, I connect the programming track outputs from my DCC command station to the flex track with a pair of 2' test leads (the kind with alligator clips at each end). If find this much more convenient than fussing with the wiring to have an integrated programming track.
2) I confess that I don't know what you mean by CTI or DBTC, which tells me that you're way overthinking this (I'm not an expert, but I know the common terms), or delving into some pretty deep technical stuff that is far more than you need to know. The general rule is that everything between the wall wart and the rails should be from the same manufacturer. Assuming you want a full-featured system, get a starter set from one of the name brands: Digitrax, MRC, or NCE -- they all have their pros and cons, and it's largely a matter of individual preference. My personal experience is that MRC and NCE are easier to use, but there are lots of folks who would disagree with me on that. You should be able to get any of them for less than $200. 
3) You can get a basic mobile decoder for each of your locomotives (Digitrax, NCE, and TCS are all good manufacturers) for about $15. Just make sure that the connector (8-pin plug, 9-pin plug, etc.) matches the loco. That information should be on the parts list that came with it. Retailers will call them just that: DCC decoders.
4) While many people like a computer interface, it isn't necessary and it's an easy upgrade to install later.

But really, get that book on DCC Basics and read up. That will clear up a lot of the terminology.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

And, in case it's not clear from the above, investing in a starter set gets you everything you need to get started with the exception of the mobile decoders (the ones thst go in the loco itself). Those are extra. You cannoften buy bulk packs which are cheaper than buying individually.


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> 2) I confess that I don't know what you mean by CTI or DBTC
> 
> 4) While many people like a computer interface, it isn't necessary and it's an easy upgrade to install later.
> 
> But really, get that book on DCC Basics and read up. That will clear up a lot of the terminology.


Here is the CTI referenced - https://www.cti-electronics.com/. My take on DBTC is a broadband transmission (bluetooth) protocol on a chip. Android devices can talk to it. Very fuzzy on this. I dumped it in the BlueTrain, Arduno bucket. To hard for me to think about at this stage.

More on the computer interface in another thread.

Thanks for the specific book reference. Went to a train show yesterday but they wanted full retail on those books. Got all stubborn and now regret not picking them up.



sachsr1 said:


> My layout started in the same shape as yours, but without the yard in the middle. I just had two short sections of track to park trains. I extended the two short parking sections into two reversing loops on each end. This lead to one little section of track that always seemed to have trains going head on with each other.
> 
> This may make that small shortcut section a bit more work than you want for your layout. I'm sure you can make it work, but I just wanted to share my experience.


What was your solution? Get rid of the reverse loop?


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## Rook (Nov 5, 2017)

Another attempt at layout design using Anyrail. Added a yard but my gut is telling I dont have enough room for something like this to ork out. Might be able to make more space by extending one end into a larger loop. This thing is already taking up half my apartment.

Feels like a lot of switches for a first layout. Was fun to play with more software until the 50 piece (of track) limit was reached


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

I expanded my layout so my two reverse loops joined into one big oval. 

I have a CTI setup and I used the Train Brain software for a bit, but I switched to JMRI. There are parts I liked and dislike about both, but JMRI will run CTI hardware. JMRI is kind of like a universal remote that controls many different brands of hardware. I have my NCE Powercab, CTI Acela, and Arduino based C/MRI all interfaced in JMRI.


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