# Micro-Trains Lines vs China



## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

I think most all people in our hobby would have to acknowledge the fact that Micro-Trians Lines ( MTL) is one of, if not the most quality driven company in our hobby whether it is N or their Kadee HO division. I have tons of their cars and of course their couplers are the standard in the industry regardless of scale. The price was always a tad higher than the other companies but the detail and quality was wirth the additional money. Most if not all major players in our hobby moved their production to China many years ago in order to ' compete '. Recently I purchased two new release cars that cost in excess of $30 retail which broke my heart but I wanted them so took the plunge. Both cars exceeded the cost of 99% of MTL cars available. So here is the rub for me. MTL and products are made in the USA, Always have been and the owners say ' always will be '. The company is healthy and making a decent profit. Since the other companies chose to move production to China in order to ' compete ', their prices have sky rocketed and MTL's seemed to have stabilized over the last decade or so. Seems like it might be time to bring back the work to our shores and employ some American workers and may be they could produce a beautiful $22.00 passenger car with MTL couplers and still make a nice profit like Micro Trains does. Do you agree or am I missing something here?

Tom


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Agreed....However - you are missing something - not too many companies are driven by altruistic motives. Most are trying to show a profit for their shareholders or owners. As well, most try to maximize that profit. 

The owners of MTL clearly have a view that puts "Made in America" as a higher priority than it does maximizing profit. Truly, I'm not sure how any of us would know what MTL's real profit position is or for that matter the company health. With most competitors using low cost labor in SE Asia, that does put some extreme pressure on MTL.

The only way to convince those other companies that production should be here in the US is to tell them this through our purchasing decisions by not buying their products and instead buying those made here.


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## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

I must agree for the most part. Once shareholders enter the picture everything changes doesn't it? I guess I'd agree with that if I were a shareholder. There are no shareholders at MTL ot Atlas as both are family owned and operated companies. One company stayed put, the other fled to China for production. The US company announces a new release and delivers as promised. The other company announces a new product and projected delivery date and we all hold our collective breath wondering if/when it will arrive or if it will EVER. Almost always blamed on ' production or quality control issues in China '.

As far as stating your case to these companies about not manufacturing in this country anymore by not spending my money on their products, I tried that once. I was looking to purchase an engine made in the USA but the only companies who made them at the time were EMD and GE and they were much to large for my 9x13 room. So I have to believe that it is cheaper to build these engines here and make them anywhere else in the world.I think the shareholders of CSX, NS, UP, CP. CN should all rebel immediately and demand that management be shopping around all these third world countries looking for their new Gevo units ! 

Tom


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Back in the 90's I was very involved in the industry and was able to tour the Micro-Trains plant. Very impressive indeed. Always has been a very top notch company and does make you wonder why so many leave for China. Intermountain and Red Caboose started in Colorado and took the plunge to China as well.
I would love to BUY AMERICAN Made but in N scale thats just not possible.
Besides the $$ factor some companies were fighting environmental regulations when it came to plastics and painting.
Look what happened to Athearn. ALWAYS made in the USA, company sells out. Everything becomes "limited run" and is made in China. ( the people wonder where all the jobs are)
I just never got it either except for the $$ factor. If MT can be successful so can others. Guess greed just got in the way.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

The low cost labor that China offered just plan fell on its face. I support bringing the manufacturing back to the USA.


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## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

The politicians and the Chamber of Commerce call it ' free enterprise '. I call it good old fashion American greed. The same clowns who are so very concerned about creating new jobs are the ones lining up to export the existing ones overseas. The only ' new jobs ' in this country are at McD's and BK. Minimum wage and those same clowns even fight that. I would absolutely love to know what exactly is the cost to produce that $30 car or $110.00 engine including transportation to the states from China. We'll never know as that is a very closely guarded figure. The cost differnce between an Atlas car made in China vs a MTL car from the USA would be fascinating reading wouldn't it? And while we're at it, hats off to Mister Kato for keeping great train line based in Japan to this day. More than a few manufacturers in this country could take a lesson page from the Kato and MTL play books.


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## nuckaler (Apr 17, 2012)

Not only that with the rise of affluency in China the cost of manufacturing goods has gone up so much over the last 7yrs.I can see in the future that India will become the next major manufacturing centre.


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## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

I agree. Lots of stuff shifting to India already. I actually look forward to happening in the model railroad industry. Since so many brick and mortar hobby shops are closing it will be wonderful to walk into any 7/11 , Dunkin' Donuts, or Gas N' Go and fill your gas tank, your stomach, and your classification yard. I can see it now, The Tata Southern. I'm excited!!!


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## SidingSam (Dec 10, 2012)

I too support bringing the manufacturing back to the USA.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm curious - how many that have responded in this thread drive foreign cars?

I've got (3) Fords at my house.


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

fords, ok but were were they built. i had 2 cavaliers,built in OHIO. now i have a colorado pick up,by chevy, were built you say, Taiwan, yes it is by crackie.


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## StevenIsBallin (Jan 4, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> I'm curious - how many that have responded in this thread drive foreign cars?
> 
> I've got (3) Fords at my house.


Its hard to buy american products when 99% of our products come from china or other foreign countries (ok exaggeration but you get my point). Luckily we still have a choice when it comes to cars.


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## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

Years ago I felt very passionate about buying automobiles made in the USA and helping keep our economy strong. That is until I discovered after I purchased my Jeep GFrand Cherokee that it was built in Ontario, Canada. No problem, I love the Canadians. Since that I have purchased three Hondas, all built in good old Ohio by card carrying UAW members and haven't regretted it. Best quality vehicles I have ever owned truthfully. Bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to boast that I bought an ' american car 'anymore unfortunately. Remember, the powers that be keep reminding us that we live in a ' global economy '. They produce, we consume. They collect pay checks, we collect unemployment checks.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

nsmainline said:


> Years ago I felt very passionate about buying automobiles made in the USA and helping keep our economy strong. That is until I discovered after I purchased my Jeep GFrand Cherokee that it was built in Ontario, Canada. No problem, I love the Canadians. Since that I have purchased three Hondas, all built in good old Ohio by card carrying UAW members and haven't regretted it. Best quality vehicles I have ever owned truthfully. Bottom line is that it is extremely difficult to boast that I bought an ' american car 'anymore unfortunately. Remember, the powers that be keep reminding us that we live in a ' global economy '. They produce, we consume. They collect pay checks, we collect unemployment checks.


You are supporting the outsourcing of jobs overseas. Your Honda may be assembled in the US, but it is designed/developed overseas and all profit goes overseas as well. You know all of the Engineers and testing - not here in the US. The tooling and assembly equipment - made overseas and Imported. Assembly labor is only a small % of what goes into a vehicle.

It seems hypocritical of you to scream support US jobs for a $100 train car/engine but choose to send thousands of your dollars overseas to be converted into Yen.

It's your choice in the end.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

I have a Saturn made in Deleware by UAW workers. 2002 L200, actually put in a fuel pump two years ago, knock on wood. I try not to buy Chinese if there is an alternative. I have Kato made in Japan and MTL freight cars, Kato ConCor and old Atlas passenger. My Kato locos outlast the Atlas made in china (had 2 that died). I do not dislike the Chinese, just the American traitors who chose to move there.


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## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

Not sure there is an easy answer to this debate. Too many factors involved that we have zero say or control over. One correction if I may. The average cost for labor in the auto industry is just above 34% per unit sold. Probably much less when those Fords are produced in Germany, Argentina, England, Malaysia, Mexico, Canada , and Brazil. According to Cars.com 'made in America ' index a car must be built here and at least 75% of the parts produced in the USA to be considered to be built in the USA/american made. The ONLY US car makers to be on the list are Ford with the F-150. GM with the Traverse, Acadia, and Enclave. Jeep with the Liberty. Toyota has three models and Honda two. So what does this say? Go out and try to find anything totally made in the USA using nothing but american materials. Good luck. And for those of you who fret over all the corporate profits going back overseas from the plants here , I just bet GM, Ford, and Chrysler aren't leaving any money behind in those countries where the wages are a mere fraction of what our workers get paid.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

nsmainline said:


> Not sure there is an easy answer to this debate. Too many factors involved that we have zero say or control over. One correction if I may. The average cost for labor in the auto industry is just above 34% per unit sold. Probably much less when those Fords are produced in Germany, Argentina, England, Malaysia, Mexico, Canada , and Brazil. According to Cars.com 'made in America ' index a car must be built here and at least 75% of the parts produced in the USA to be considered to be built in the USA/american made. The ONLY US car makers to be on the list are Ford with the F-150. GM with the Traverse, Acadia, and Enclave. Jeep with the Liberty. Toyota has three models and Honda two. So what does this say? Go out and try to find anything totally made in the USA using nothing but american materials. Good luck. And for those of you who fret over all the corporate profits going back overseas from the plants here , I just bet GM, Ford, and Chrysler aren't leaving any money behind in those countries where the wages are a mere fraction of what our workers get paid.


We have 100% control over what we buy.

Those "made in America" labels completely ignore the investment in assembly equipment, design, development, testing, etc. in a vehicle. You're right that nothing is 100% made in America, that doesn't mean we should try our best to support as many US jobs as possible. You support approx 3x as many US jobs buying a domestic OEM vehicle vs in imported brand. The Japanese began building more cars here when the exchange rates between the Yen/dollar went out of whack and it started affecting their profit. If it goes back the other way - their US facilities will be the first to close (take NUMMI for example - they closed that facility and moved the small truck production down into Mexico.)

I work for Ford and know exactly how many people are employed in this country vs say Toyota or Honda.

All I'm saying is that if you are so concerned about US jobs with respect to model trains, and that producing them overseas is driven by nothing more than greed, then what about purposely buying foreign product. Is that not also driven by greed? It seems hypocritical of you to then support those same companies that export more cars to the US for sale than they sell back in their home market of Japan, etc.

US based companies pay taxes on global earnings, foreign ones only pay US taxes on sales in the US.

As you stated in the beginning of this thread - Buy American. The automobile is the 2nd largest purchase for consumers next to a house. With ~15Million new cars sold last year and about 1/2 of those being imports - that's 7.5M vehicles at an average profit margin of $10K each that's $75 Billion dollars leaving our shores for overseas.

Americans buy trillions of dollars of imported goods because they are cheaper than those produced here. We LOVE a good deal. Just search this site for all of the "where do I get X the cheapest" THAT is why things are made overseas, because we don't penalize those companies that outsource overseas by not buying their products nor do we reward local companies by buying their products even though they may be more expensive.

Plastics, Metals, fuel, etc are all global commodities that are basically the same price around the world - the only variables left for cost determination are shipping and labor.


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## nsmainline (Dec 8, 2012)

Yep, can't disagree with any of your points. All valid imho. I recall waaay back when I was employed by the once mighty Bethlehem Steel Corp., the second biggest steel company in the world and all of the arguments you present were discussed always about foreign vs domestic. Bottom line for those greedy $$$ grabbers was to cry poverty and foul by Japanese producers, suck the company bloodless and blame the unions, and then sell off all the remaining profitable divisions to a German company who by the way operates at quite a nice profit in this country. Does Carl Ichan ring a bell? A close friend of mine who is still employed in account for the German company fumes recalling how as of the day the BSC closed the doors there were still 13 presidents/vp on the payroll earning in excess of a million per year. The CEO Barnetter was still on the payroll of the new German owner for a year earning his salary and having his own office and secretary even though he had nothing to do. Just a nice ' thank you very much ' for his efforts at dismantling a great company and selling it at yard sale price. So the debate will continue long after we are all long gone I'm afraid. There are Indians and there are chiefs. Maybe too many chiefs eh?


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## ufgatordoc (Nov 3, 2015)

Whether we like it or not we are part of a global economy so it is hard to judge someone for buying a Ford made in Mexico or a Honda made in the USA. I wish anyone luck who is dedicated to buying true "made in the USA" products. But back to the original topic--God bless MicroTrains for the great products they have and continue to make for us to enjoy!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*foreign?*



sstlaure said:


> I'm curious - how many that have responded in this thread drive foreign cars?
> 
> I've got (3) Fords at my house.


sstlaure;

I get your point about buying American automobiles if you want to help employ American workers. However when does a USA. branded car (Ford, GM, Chrysler) assembled in Canada, from components made in Mexico, and other countries; stop being an "American" car. Personally, I own a Honda, and a Toyota. Both were made in plants located in the USA and staffed with American workers. Are they still "foreign"? It's a strange new world.

Traction Fan


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## johnbos (Apr 11, 2016)

*Made in USA*

I will only buy Fords made in USA or Canada not Mexico.

Remember Ford was not bailed out by the government.

Subaru and Toyota and a few more are built here. They create jobs but their profit goes to japan.

Micro trains loco`s minus the shell is made in China.

Try buying a TV or sound system made in the USA.

We did this by wanting the lowest price on everything we buy.

John


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

johnbos said:


> We did this by wanting the lowest price on everything we buy.
> 
> John


Well, it is a pretty compelling reason. Would you still buy Micro Trains stuff if it was 50% more than the competition just because it is made in the US?


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## rrjim1 (Mar 12, 2015)

traction fan said:


> sstlaure;
> 
> I own a Honda, and a Toyota. Both were made in plants located in the USA and staffed with American workers. Are they still "foreign"?
> Traction Fan


Yes, they are still a Japanese company, just like Ford is a US company even if there cars are assembled in another country. My 2013 Ford was made in Detroit.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*The more things change. . .*

I have a box of what is now 30-year old n-scale rolling stock I tell myself I'll use "someday", mostly because they all have Rapido couplers and the locomotives don't run anymore. OK, lets see . . . A high-quality Atlas RPO made in Italy - it has a capital R (like the Rainier Beer R) molded in it - Rivarossi?). little Atlas industrial switchers made in Austria. A Con-Cor dummy RDC2 also made in Austria. A toyish observation car made in "Western Germany". A Bachmann F7 with "Hong Kong" stamped in the fuel tank, and an SD40 with the same thing molded into the trucks. In my experience n-scale has always been about "buying imported". And for the record, I drive an old Chevy and my wife drives a Ford.


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