# O-scale Command Equipped Sound Car



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm working on a new project, maybe my next product offering. This is a prototype of my TMCC controlled sound car. This is TMCC controlled and uses the ERR MiniCommander to supply the TMCC receiver. It's capable of remotely commanding four different sound clips of any duration you desire from seconds to hours. I'm using an off-the-shelf MP3 player that allows up to 32gb micro-SD cards, so plenty of audio capacity. Also included is a brief YouTube video to show you what it operates like.














































After consideration, it seems like this limits the usability of the system, so I'm moving in the direction of using a 4-channel RF transmitter to trigger the sounds, this offers the ability to run with any command system or even conventional operation.

With that in mind, I changed to do an RF version, here's the prototype of this unit. Having gotten this working well, I'm now expanding the concept. The end result will be to be able to play unlimited number of sound clips, and also have some light outputs, utility outputs, and a couple of standard model aircraft style PWM servo outputs. By utilizing modes from the RF remote, I can expand the command set considerably. By pressing two (or three) key combinations, I'll be able to switch modes, then use the four buttons to command actions within that mode. For sounds, I figure I can have a mode that waits for a two-key sequence for 01 through 99 as a sound clip selection, that should do for most folks.

With servo control, I can do some neat stuff like open boxcar doors, turn on lights, etc. The sky is the limit...

For conventional use, I'm working on a superCAP add-on pack to ride out a few seconds of track power interruptions, that will allow the sounds to continue when switching directions.


----------



## Jim M (Jun 21, 2015)

GRJ, will that work through DCS too?


----------



## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

John, I think there is a market for that. There are so many sounds in a RR environment. You might really be opening the door to bringing lots of fun items on our layouts.

What really makes me smile is you're tinkering around and building this rig. I'm not great at electronics but it is another whole world of modeling in our hobby.

Thanks for posting this.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, I have some experience with super caps. I am making a capacitor bank with 200 2.7volt 100 F capacitors. I got hoodwinked by a guy on eBay that was selling counterfeit capacitors. I bought 212 caps and only 99 seem to work OK. I have the name and email address of a company that I think is legitimate.


----------



## Jim M (Jun 21, 2015)

I was looking online for sounds of passing trains and came by this site. I would be interested in a car that had these sounds or something like it. I like the sound of the creaking and squeaking as a slow trains goes by. Anyway, I found this site to be pretty cool, you can alter the noises by boosting the frequency you want.

http://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/railroadNoiseGenerator.php


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jim M said:


> GRJ, will that work through DCS too?


The RF version is planned to work in any 3-rail environment, TMCC/Legacy, DCS, or conventional. I have prototypes of the RF version that work like the TMCC controlled one, I just haven't rounded up a car with pickups to stick them into.



Jim M said:


> I was looking online for sounds of passing trains and came by this site. I would be interested in a car that had these sounds or something like it. I like the sound of the creaking and squeaking as a slow trains goes by. Anyway, I found this site to be pretty cool, you can alter the noises by boosting the frequency you want.
> 
> http://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/railroadNoiseGenerator.php


Jim, that's where I came up with a couple of the sound tracks, I just tinkered until I got something I liked and then turned on a long recording using Audicity.

Bruce, I'll probably be buying SuperCaps from major supply houses, if I make this a product, I have to have something that I can depend on.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John,
I don't know how big the cap is that you need. Fortune Electronics has the ones we use for $6 each but you have to buy 5000. We are working with the manufacturers people here in San Diego and Chicago. The manufacturer is in Korea. We may get a sample of 200 for the prototype we are making.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I am using 2.5F 5V ones in the prototype I'm working on, it's enough for about 7 seconds of sound without power. That's all I need in this application. The really large ones are way overkill for what I'm doing.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I would think you wouldn't need a 100F cap. We use 100F caps because by the time we put 200 in series, the capacitance is 0.5F. We had tried a capacitance bank using 3300 uF and 6900 uF for a total of .15F, and it was too small and too expensive. Thus the supercaps.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd think 200 100F super caps could get expensive! 

What in the world are you doing with a 0.5F capacitor at 400 volts?


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

John - 

Interesting details and thoughts. Mostly I agree with what you say. Some observations:
1) I assume you will offer a kit, not a whole car, so a model railroader can fit these to what car(s) he/she wants?
2) I would would buy six or seven if they will operate in conventional without any DCS/Legacy/DCC like programming. Ideally, a sound board that defaults on startup to "basic" sounds, with a simple remote with several buttons as you show, would be fine. 
3) Given 1 & 2 above, I would fit at least half of these sound boards, etc., into cabooses, given that that would work. sounds already have power pickups on the rucks (at least the ones I run do) for the lights, and so that makes conversion quicker. They are at the end of the train and that seems like a good place for at least some of the "train sounds" to come from (as opposed to chuffing/rumbling from the tender/lead unit).
4) It would be fine by me if there were only one remote frequency for control (i.e., if I had four cars running they would all respond to the same remote). This is a simplification for produtcion, etc., and although a limitation for multi-unit operation, acceptable from my perspective in return for the less-complex operation and production.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Right now it is a company secret. The super caps are much less expensive than the 3300u and the 7900u that we have used in the past. The super caps are about $6 each, so the whole lot is $1200. To make a 0.5 F capacitor using conventional capacitors would cost several times that + they are larger and don't fit the space we have.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Answers below.


Lee Willis said:


> John -
> 
> Interesting details and thoughts. Mostly I agree with what you say. Some observations:
> 1) I assume you will offer a kit, not a whole car, so a model railroader can fit these to what car(s) he/she wants?
> ...


----------



## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

That is very cool. I could even see that being used in scenery to make factory noises or street noises for a town. Since you could hook up servos maybe even make smoke stacks puff in factories with sound. That would be cool.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lots of possibilities, that's why I'm trying to make something fairly universal so that it will be applicable to many applications. 

Still working out a few engineering issues with the universal model, one is how to handle conventional operation when you get breaks in the power. I'm working on a super-cap solution that gives me a few seconds of power when I lose track power for reversals so that the sound system doesn't reset.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

John - PFE caboose? do you mean a UP CA-4? I have several UP CA-4 cabooses in brown and yellow which I understand are appropriate for reefer trains, but have never seen a PFE caboose, which, prototypical or not, I would buy in a heartbeat? Did I miss something in the Lionel catalog?

Servoguy - .5F at 400volts? I don't want to be in the same room with it unless its in a very good armored container, as they are on EVs, etc. The 22 volt ones I build can bite like a hornet.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can't imagine what kind of high energy stuff needs that kind of power, but I'm with you Lee, keep it away from me! 


Yes, I was talking about the UP CA-4 caboose which was in the 2014 catalog. I bought it specifically to run with the Big Boy and the 35 or so PFE reefers I now have.


----------



## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

GRJ think one of these will fit in S scale caboose? would be interested if they could. 

Bob P


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I suppose that would depend on the caboose. The current RF module is 2.5" x 1.1" x 1.1" for the outside envelope. Obviously, the speaker is not included in that measurement.

The full up module that I'm going for everything but the kitchen sink is going to be a slight bit larger, the basic board is 2" x 1.1" footprint, so the total length will be close to 3" for the board and the two plug-in components.


----------



## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

I have already put a err speaker in one off my tenders. So if it isn't any wider than that I'll be good. O gauge seems like it would have been a better choice to model but I think they use up to much space.

Bob P


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the ERR speaker is about 1.5" wide, so I'd be more worried about the length and height, as well as the space for the board and speaker.


----------



## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

Thank you. I will measure caboose tonight. I have a couple of throw away ones from train shows.

Bob P


----------



## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Equipped Sound Car..*

It looks like a great idea even for a large [HO] boxcar..
Even better when using *[DCC]* when there is a *"Constant Voltage"* power supply to the track..

Many *[O] *scale modelers use *"Variable Voltage"* (Very Slow & Fast) to power the track..
There are *"Big" *power *"Voltage" *fluctuations to the track..

*Questions: *
What is the *"Minimum Voltage" *required for your TMCC controlled sound car to operate ??
What is the *"Maximum Voltage" *required for your TMCC controlled sound car to operate ??
......


----------



## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Back-Up Capacitors..(Power Storage)..*

*[DCC] *power supply to the electric rails will send a *"Constant Voltage" *to power the track rails..
Using a *"Train Transformer"* will send *"Variable Voltage"* to power the track..

*Go to [wvgca] "Thread"..*
Curiosity: KeepAlive for DC loco's 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=70178
The *"Variable" *track power supply *(Not Being Constant) *was the big problem.. 
He tried everything to complete this project and it was *"Sad"* to see this project *"Fail"..*

*Question: (#1)*
What is the* "Minimum Voltage" *required for your TMCC controlled sound car to operate ??

*Capacitors* can *"Not" *store *"More Voltage"* then what is presently supplied to the track rails..
......


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#1)*
> What is the* "Minimum Voltage" *required for your TMCC controlled sound car to operate ??
> 
> *Capacitors* can *"Not" *store *"More Voltage"* then what is presently supplied to the track rails..
> ......


The car functions from around 5.5-6.0 VAC on the track to 20 VAC on the track. I use the Recom R-785.0-0.5 DC-DC converter, it maintains regulation from 6.5V to 34V. It's fed by a full wave bridge and 560uf filter cap. Variable voltage is not an issue, and being a switching power supply, it doesn't suffer from excessive power dissipation issues at high track voltages.

As I've outlined previously, a buck/boost power supply can supply constant voltage to a capacitor array at any reasonable track voltage if that's necessary.

My newest sound board that is currently in testing also has a supercap booster module that can be added for conventional operation, it keeps the voltage supply alive for the track power interruptions. Yes, I actually tested this too.

I'm curious why you work so hard to disprove other folks work, yet rail against anyone questioning your work. My sound cars have been running for months, and I've run them on all sorts of varied voltages, so I know they work. I suggest you lose the chip on your shoulder and just enjoy the ride.









*RF Controlled Sound & Automation Board*​


----------



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I know absolutely nothing about O scale, but the above diagram looks good, especially the use of Schottky diodes to reduce forward voltage drop .. no idea where you will have the supercap, but lately they are fairly cheap for the dual stack 5.5 version on ebay, values up to 1.5 Farad have cost me roughly a buck apiece, a lot cheaper than what they used to be ..


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I get mine on Digikey or Mouser as a rule. While you can frequently get electronic components cheaper on eBay, the quality is variable and the specifications are a moving target. If I'm designing something that I'll potentially produce in quantity, I can't afford to use a component that I'll later not be able to get, that really gets expensive.


----------



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

makes sense ... mine were bought for play .. 
and digikey works well for me, just not as often anymore .. usually wind up buying a fair bit more that what actually gets used ... lots of obsolete in the racks, lol


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have lots of parts that never get used as well.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi John, I see a lot of potential with that set-up. 

Bill


----------



## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

Your doing a great service to us "O" scaler by bringing tis out.
Now! When can we expect it?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hopefully, I'll have the enhanced version this summer.


----------



## Guest (Apr 24, 2016)

For Forum members like me that have no idea what a Schottky diode is or what a bridge rectifier rectifies let me try to sum up what I believe I have been reading: GunnerJohn has developed a "Killer" Sound Car and I want one! 

That's my take on it anyway.

Emile


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My plan is to sell the board package, it can be installed into anything, fixed or moving. I just need to finish the software for the "deluxe" version that includes some LED outputs and two model airplane servo outputs so you can add motion to a car or other item.


----------



## Guest (Apr 24, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My plan is to sell the board package, it can be installed into anything, fixed or moving. I just need to finish the software for the "deluxe" version that includes some LED outputs and two model airplane servo outputs so you can add motion to a car or other item.


Wow, That's actually cooler than I thought. I want one for sure. Just please include specific instructions so that I don't Shock the living daylights out of myself.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No shock possible, all low voltage. 

If you liked those features, I'm also including a couple of inputs. The intent is to be able to change the sound based on a trigger coming in one of the inputs. So, if it were in a boxcar, you could have the sounds change from stopped to moving.


----------



## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*O-scale Command Equipped Sound Car..*

*This "Thread" is posted:*
> O Scale
> O-scale Command Equipped Sound Car
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=1064746#post1064746
(O Scale Atlas, Bachman, Hornby, K-Line, Lionel and classic toy train discussion)

*Fact: (#1)*
- I go to --> O Scale
- I look for "Thread" --> O-scale Command Equipped Sound Car
- I can *"Not"* find or see this *"Thread"..*

*Fact: (#2)*
- I only found this "Thread" through a "*Back Door"* into this "Thread"..

*Question: (#1)*
- Why is *[gunrunnerjohn]* "Blocking" my "IP Address" into this "Thread" ?? 

*Facts: (#3)*
- Many individuals post many* "Very" *helpful information..
- Many individuals also post "*Detailed"* required information and required hardware..



gunrunnerjohn said:


> My plan is to sell the board package, it can be installed into anything, fixed or moving.





gunrunnerjohn said:


> *My plan is to "Sell" the board package..*


*Question: (#2)*
- Why is *[gunrunnerjohn]* intending to *"Sell"* *($'s) *for his information,
while we *"All" *give out *"Free Information"* to this *"Forum" ??*
......


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

ED-RRR said:


> *This "Thread" is posted:*
> > O Scale
> > O-scale Command Equipped Sound Car
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=1064746#post1064746
> ...


You apparently suffer from paranoid delusions, I did nothing to block your access to the thread. I have no idea what issue you're having with your computer, but it's not of my doing. So much for "facts" #1 and #2. I also hope this addresses "Question #1".


> *Facts: (#3)*
> - Many individuals post many* "Very" *helpful information..
> - Many individuals also post "*Detailed"* required information and required hardware..
> 
> ...


Obviously, you haven't actually looked at my postings in the forum, or indeed actually read and comprehended what I'm talking about in this thread. If you care to look around, I have provided copious support information to many members here. 

As far as this sound board, let's see if I understand what you propose. You would like me to buy all the components for the sound boards, then pay to have them assembled, package them up with instructions, etc., only to give them away for free, presumably to you. What have you done that would induce me to do that? You obviously live on a different planet than I do, or most other folks here.


----------



## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

ED-RRR said:


> *This "Thread" is posted:*
> > O Scale
> > O-scale Command Equipped Sound Car
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=1064746#post1064746
> ...


What kind of NUT are you? 

GUNRUNNER is always there to help us all, any questions we have about the hobby he usually has the answer to help you figure out what is the problem. 

JOHN, I think you have a nice product there, don't allow this guy to bring your reputation down. You are the BEST:smilie_daumenpos:!


----------



## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

What we need is more people like Gunrunner that will take the time to develop items that will enhance and increase our enjoyment in running our toy trains in a more realistic fashion.
Gunrunner has always given when asked advise in problem fixing, never asking for a cent. But when he pursues an idea, develops it and builds it, I see no problem, in fact encourage him and others who have the talents, to offer these items for us to purchase. This is one reason that helped "N" gauge grow in its early years, many cottage industries making un-obtainable items for sale. Kudos to Gunruner


----------



## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Gunrunner John has always published the schematic and parts list for the items he sells. He sells a fully built and tested version for those who may not want to build their own. You have picked the wrong guy to attack. GRJ is well respected on this forum and generously provides help to all who request it. Your rant only bring question to your own judgement.


----------



## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Am I on the correct forum? MTF is not the place for this kind of mess. Gunrunner John is a tremendous source of help. Life is not a free lunch.

I want one of these and absolutely expect to pay for it.


----------



## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Fantastic John. Really cool.


----------



## Marklx200 (Jun 14, 2015)

*Question: (#2)*
- Why is *[gunrunnerjohn]* intending to *"Sell"* *($'s) *for his information,
while we *"All" *give out *"Free Information"* to this *"Forum" ??*
......[/QUOTE]

By his thinking, or lack of it, Lionel should be giving away their command equipped sound cars. I wonder how Lionel would feel about that. 

P.S. Dear ford motor co. I would like a free mustang.


----------



## Hudson J1e (Nov 19, 2015)

On at least 3 separate occasions GRJ helped me fix a locomotive with his advice. He never asked for a dime. Over the years I have seen him help dozens of folks on numerous forums. He deserves our thanks and respect.


----------



## Hudson J1e (Nov 19, 2015)

GRJ, I forgot to ask. This sound board will work under TMCC? I run DCC so I guess I am out of luck. Although I believe there might be some HO versions for DCC.


----------



## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm working on a new project, maybe my next product offering. This is a prototype of my TMCC controlled sound car. This is TMCC controlled and uses the ERR MiniCommander to supply the TMCC receiver. It's capable of remotely commanding four different sound clips of any duration you desire from seconds to hours....
> :stroke:
> GRJ, what's the status of this project? Is it currently, or in the near future, will it be a product offered by you or is it on the backburner? An update would be appreciated?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hudson J1e said:


> GRJ, I forgot to ask. This sound board will work under TMCC? I run DCC so I guess I am out of luck. Although I believe there might be some HO versions for DCC.


The first one will be controlled by the RF keyfob, so anything that has track power will be fine. I'm planning on a TMCC version as a second step.



ogaugeguy said:


> GRJ, what's the status of this project? Is it currently, or in the near future, will it be a product offered by you or is it on the backburner? An update would be appreciated?


It's on the middle burner, I'm trying to get it out before the Fall York.


----------

