# Time to Refocus the TCA York Meet



## Guest (May 1, 2016)

In another thread, Gunrunnerjohn wrote: "If it weren't for the social aspects of the York experience, I'd most likely not go most of the time. It's great greeting old friends and meeting new ones each time I go." 

My first thought was "Amen to that!" but then I started thinking about the changing face of the TCA York Meet and mostly the declining attendance. 

York was originally awesome to me because there were so many dealers I'd never heard of and an endless supply of Member sellers with hard to find items. The internet has taken a huge chunk out of that uniqueness. Every dealer at York seems to have a website and most of the Member sellers are on Ebay. 

I used to go to York with a long list of hard-to-find items to look for but now, because I shop on the internet, my list is short enough that I don't need to write it down. A large and ever growing reason for me to continue to attend York are the Social aspects. I don't think I'm alone in that.

That's why I believe the folks running TCA York need to refocus the Meet to include more "Social Media" relevant programming. Atlas had a "Private" curtained room for it's Club Members with chairs and bottled water. I think TCA could offer designated "Private" areas for Forums or other internet groups. They should recognize and take advantage of the growing number of Model Railroad YouTube Videos being produced and offer seminars in video lighting and editing. 

If TCA doesn't embrace the internet and refocus accordingly, the internet will eventually take down the York Meet. Nobody wants that to happen.

What changes would you make to help York evolve?

Emile


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

"What changes would you make to help York evolve?"

Hold it in Dallas. 

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Pete, you're outta' here, we ain't moving the meet!


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I got the impression from a discussion with one of the indivuals in the Nicholas Smith booth in the Orange Hall that many of the commercial dealers are not very happy that the Eastern Division extended the meet starting on Thursday at noon instead of the traditional start day of Friday.

This caused them to spend more money on food, hotel and other travel expenses.

The fact that the meet is not open to the public has been debated for a number of years and I think most commercial dealers would welcome it if the dealer halls were open to the public because it would give them a larger audience. Keep the member halls closed to members only. 

One of the overwhelming reasons that that will never happen is that it would hasten the already declining TCA membership.

I think what you might see sometime in the future, given the tremendous success of the Great American Hobby shows, is some type of permanent show similar to them perhaps near a large metropolitan area like Philadelphia, DC, or Northern Virgina. 

I would have included Baltimore but their convention center is a union venue and one that is difficult to set up in. I don't know how the LCCA did it a couple of years ago.

Anyway these are just some of my thoughts and I agree that the social aspect of the meet greatly outways anything else. I only spent $2.00 at the meet but a lot more on the travel expenses.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

One other thing. I was told that the attendance was the lowest in a number of years.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Without trying to sugercoat it, yes you will see less and less people there. I hate to say it but its not like todays youth are lining up to buy trains. As we know the majority of people who collect and run trains are older. When they pass away or become unable to travel , you loose people that are not being replaced. This is why some stuff is going down in price, no demand. I really dont see a fix for this.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I like the York Meet, the way it is.


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## Guest (May 1, 2016)

sjm9911 said:


> Without trying to sugercoat it, yes you will see less and less people there. I hate to say it but its not like todays youth are lining up to buy trains. As we know the majority of people who collect and run trains are older. When they pass away or become unable to travel , you loose people that are not being replaced. This is why some stuff is going down in price, no demand. I really dont see a fix for this.



I'm sorry to have to disagree with that theory. It's true that demand is declining for some things. The market for Protosound 1 locomotives is declining in the same way that the market for the iPhone 2 is declining. Who wants to buy a locomotive with Protosound 1 when they can get it with Protosound 3? As long as Model Train manufacturers continue to innovate, there will be a market for their products. 

Age is not the only factor driving the market for Model Trains. Financial resources and available "free time" are a big player in demand. Granted, older men and women are more likely to have more free time and disposable income but that will always be the case. With modern medicine, etc. we have a senior population that is increasing, not decreasing. It is up to companies like Lionel and MTH to stay relevant. If the hobby does "Die off" it will be the failure of manufacturers , not an inevitable wave of mortality. 

Emile


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I have to agree with SJM. Its not just the buyers that are getting older or dying, its also the dealers. How many have been lost in just the last five years either through sickness or just getting out of the business? Its an iterative process. Less dealers leads to fewer buyers and vise versa.

Let me encourage those who want to find out whats going on with Eastern Divison and York, attend the Saturday morning business meeting in the Orange Hall. You will not only learn something about the economics but also be able to express your ideas for making it better. Its open to all TCA members. Coffee and donuts provided.

Pete


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## AndyH (Sep 21, 2015)

Declining attendance is not due to any one factor, IMHO, but rather a combination of factors, like the changing demographic (the baby boomer generation is not being replaced by people able and willing to take up the hobby), changing ways in which we enjoy the hobby (collecting vs. operating), and the economy (and I think the economy is having a bigger impact than many would like to admit).

Since I joined, both the TCA and the EDTCA have taken a good many steps to change for the better - online pre-registration, on-site pre-registration, the elimination of the two-signature rule for membership, the allowing of cell phones and strollers in the halls, and the allowing of photography in the dealer halls, just to name a few. They are taking reasonable steps to change, but there is only so much they can do without ruining the event for the people it is supposed to benefit - the membership.

Additional activities to make York more attractive require people to step up and volunteer to organize the activities. In the past, the EDTCA has made the conference rooms in the Orange Hall available to groups for meetings. The OGR Layout Design meetings that were held there a number of years ago is a good example of what can be done, if people are willing to volunteer their time.

Andy


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

TheBigCrabCake said:


> I'm sorry to have to disagree with that theory. It's true that demand is declining for some things. The market for Protosound 1 locomotives is declining in the same way that the market for the iPhone 2 is declining. Who wants to buy a locomotive with Protosound 1 when they can get it with Protosound 3? As long as Model Train manufacturers continue to innovate, there will be a market for their products.
> 
> Age is not the only factor driving the market for Model Trains. Financial resources and available "free time" are a big player in demand. Granted, older men and women are more likely to have more free time and disposable income but that will always be the case. With modern medicine, etc. we have a senior population that is increasing, not decreasing. It is up to companies like Lionel and MTH to stay relevant. If the hobby does "Die off" it will be the failure of manufacturers , not an inevitable wave of mortality.
> 
> Emile


We'll agree to disagree. The problem with the we have to have the latest and greatest is that it only caters to the generation of people that allready collect trains. Yes if I wanted an I phone I would want the latest model. But, first I would have to want an I phone lionel an some others realized this when trying to make the lion cheif stuff. It was something catered for kids. If they get hooked while there young , maybe they'll stay hooked. Just a thought. Look at the ages of the people posting here, it will show you the demographic of the train guys. Sad to say I'm one of the youngest at 42. There are some that are younger. But not many


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

I would like to see more how tos. It would be nice to have a section of the meet dedicated to workshops on scenery,electrical set up and demonstrations of operating accessories for the novice and the veteran train people. But who would do these things? Scenic Express does small how tos and others would tell you how their products work. I am talking about seated hands on type of workshops to get involved in. Then again I don't know how many would go for this? When I had attended my Industrial Arts Teaching Conferences, we always had hands on workshops to take back and use in our classrooms. Sometimes seeing and doing it goes along way.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I have been to 63 straight Yorks and yes it has changed for the better in some things and worse in many others.

I go now more for the social aspect, old friends, making new friends and finding that item I may just need. I would like to see more workshop types of meeting. I have one freind that could really use it. 

Maybe a place to get together at the meet to talk about items you would like to buy but need more info from people that know about them. 

I think the ED should go back to Friday and Saturday for the meet. 

Whatever happens I'll keep going until I can't, just too much fun not too.


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Pete, you're outta' here, we ain't moving the meet!


Even though it would be swell I was being mostly facetious when I suggested moving it to Dallas. As a retiree with limited resources it's more practical for me to use any travel and lodging money on the layout.

I do dodder over to an occasional TCA meet in our area but they're pretty rinky dink.

Pete


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Agree on the seminars, how tos, etc. Look at what MTF has had the last two years at the dinner. Get into some in-depth stuff. Imagine Harry or Andre or Lee or Brian or any of 50+ more talking about their area of expertise. Doug could talk about his layout and sell a pallet of O-scale haulers afterwards. Emile you could give a great talk on your layout. 

Structures, weathering, scenery, bridges, track and switches, signaling, lighting, audio, smoke units, etc. There is a tremendous opportunity going begging IF someone will organize it properly and get good presenters. 

And you gotta invite the public to the commercial halls. I hate that but the larger vendors are going to demand it. Keep Thursday but open Friday and Saturday up.

Maybe MTF should help organize some of it. Membership would skyrocket if we did.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It definitely would be a plus for mtf to organize something. If I was good at something other then posting here I would help.


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## Guest (May 1, 2016)

I totally agree that a large part of the York Meet appeal today is the social aspects. It is "THE" place to meet and greet other folks in the hobby. It has been this way for us for a long time.

That's why our MTF breakfast and dinner are so important. This gives our members a place to enjoy each others company. The group photo is another important aspect of what you are talking about, Emile.

I also think that the York Meet offers a wonderful place to buy from the cottage industry guys. That's where we tent to spend most of our time in the Halls. Everything we came home with this past meet was a cottage industry product.

Great thread, Emile!!!!!


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

TheBigCrabCake said:


> I'm sorry to have to disagree with that theory. It's true that demand is declining for some things. The market for Protosound 1 locomotives is declining in the same way that the market for the iPhone 2 is declining. Who wants to buy a locomotive with Protosound 1 when they can get it with Protosound 3? As long as Model Train manufacturers continue to innovate, there will be a market for their products.
> 
> Age is not the only factor driving the market for Model Trains. Financial resources and available "free time" are a big player in demand. Granted, older men and women are more likely to have more free time and disposable income but that will always be the case. With modern medicine, etc. we have a senior population that is increasing, not decreasing. It is up to companies like Lionel and MTH to stay relevant. If the hobby does "Die off" it will be the failure of manufacturers , not an inevitable wave of mortality.
> 
> Emile


:eyes:
Emile,
Two of your points contradict themselves somewhat for some elderly people, that "older men and women are more likely to have more ... disposable income" and "with modern medicine, etc.we have a senior population that is increasing".
For those fortunate to have good health, your points are valid but for seniors with health issues - being able to grow older, still function and for some, even survive, (dependent on what those issues are,) can have a very significant impact on their available financial resources - significantly draining them for many.


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## Papa (Jan 11, 2012)

ogaugeguy said:


> :eyes:
> Emile,
> Two of your points contradict themselves somewhat for some elderly people, that "older men and women are more likely to have more ... disposable income" and "with modern medicine, etc.we have a senior population that is increasing".
> For those fortunate to have good health, your points are valid but for seniors with health issues - being able to grow older, still function and for some, even survive, (dependent on what those issues are,) can have a very significant impact on their available financial resources - significantly draining them for many.


Agree with this. My wife and I are both retired and our disposable income is far from when we were both working. I'm not complaining because we still are far better off than many.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts:

***The York Meet for me represents everything I love about this great hobby. When I first started attending I was a lone wolf, other than knowing my cousin who first brought me there. It was all about the trains. When I discovered the internet O gauge forums it opened up a huge door for socializing. I've met so many wonderful people in this hobby and many of them have become friends and have become family. It multiplies the fun I have at the meet a hundred times over. But even though I have way more trains than I need, I still love going to the Meet for the trains. Just being around them is like an energy recharge.

***Attendance at the York Meet, and for that matter any membership based organization, will always vary at different times. Membership fluctuations, dates the Meets are held, member's financial situations or modeling interests can all contribute to attendance declines or increases. Always remember that events like York or any other local train show are the *result* of the interest in the hobby. Sure, the Meet organizers could do a bit more promotion of joining the TCA. But the real burden falls on the train manufacturers and hobby shops to spread the word about the hobby if they want to increase sales. Also, we as individuals need to share our passion for the hobby to help it grow. Once more people of any age develops an interest, attendance at York and other train shows would increase. I also believe that if the Meet was held all day Friday *and* Saturday there would be more people attending. Maybe there are scheduling issues at the York Fairgrounds.

***The average age of model railroaders has traditionally been in the mid 50's. It may be a little higher now but hasn't changed that much. It's an age where most people have more time to invest in the hobby. Even though I've loved model trains all my life, it wasn't until my kids had grown that I had time to invest in the hobby as much as I always wanted to. So maybe the "new" people are out there, they just haven't invested the time yet.

***Opening the York Meet to the public, as has been relentlessly requested, I do not think will change the attendance much. Sure, there will be some people who'd come just because they wouldn't have to join the TCA, but how many members would they lose if membership wasn't required. Remember, the Meet is for the membership held by the membership. One of the reasons it's not open to the public, besides the PA. tax issues, is that the membership _wants_ the Meet only open to it's members. Just like we prefer our Thanksgiving dinner attended only by our families. And where would the "public" come from? Most of the die hard toy train enthusiasts are already there. The York Meet wasn't designed as a "day out" for families. It was designed as a venue for it's members to congregate to buy, sell and trade their trains.

***As wonderful as it is to have the major manufacturers and hobby stores displaying and selling their latest and greatest items, they are not the reason the York Meet exists. The Meet has existed long before they attended. It was the "buying" public that first attracted them to attend the Meet, not the "day trippers" that attend other local shows who are just there for a day out with the kids and not buying. Sure, they are members too, but their interests are for their business more than the members interests.

***As great as it would be to have seminars for different things at the Meet, someone has to volunteer to do it. Like Atlas O and MTH have done.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Good points all Brian. The point about the public being let in is a good one. Even if they did where would they draw from? The loss of membership would be huge IMO.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

As one that has seen many members only convention close to be no more, and seen several that have had a revival. What works and doesn't? Membership in a couple either dropped out, died, or no longer had the finances for traveling, eating and lodging. Those that I have seen have a revival, moved around the country every 2 years to get their agendas and hobbies out. Increasing membership due to this, and allowing the public in by advertising such in magazines, and local papers to partake on final weekend of the sellers offerings. But seminars, dinners, contests, and opening day or days was for members only. It showcased also the benefits a member had, exposed many to a venue they didn't realize a membership provided. One convention saw a increase in membership and younger people interest grow and sign up.
One gun related convention saw itself from a high, drop last year to only a handful. So it ended to be never revived again. One reason was that in last 5 years it was decided to no longer allow the public to the sale area on final convention day. Sellers complained to deaf ears, and slowly from over 500 sellers, and dealers, last year dropped to 23. 
Not giving any advise, just stating what I have seen and heard from memberships I have been in.


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## Guest (May 2, 2016)

ogaugeguy said:


> :eyes:
> Two of your points contradict themselves somewhat for some elderly people...


Yes, That's true, but I was referring to "Older people". My fault for not being more specific, "Older people" to me generally means folks over 50 (Myself included). My kids are out of the house and will soon be finished with College. I no longer have Coaching and Volunteer duties associated with my kids so I have more free time. As soon as they are financial independent, I will have an increase in available discretionary income. Additionally, people like me enter the market with a higher life expectancy than 20 years ago, meaning I'm likely to stay in the market longer than the consumer of 2 decades ago. In other words, the potential or "Target" market for model train manufacturers is actually growing. If sales are declining, it's only because Lionel and MTH have failed to attract these consumers.

Emile


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

Personally, I'd like to see Thursday limited to table-holders only so they can set up, in exchange for longer hours on Friday and Saturday. Some of our table neighbors in the Blue Hall pack up and leave Friday afternoon as they've had enough by then. That works great for us because it gives us more real estate to sell our trains on Saturday, but in my opinion it would be better if everyone who had a table stayed the entire meet. It's my understanding the halls now close at 5 pm due to the security guards' union rules, but there are possible solutions to that as well. 

I've thought a lot about opening the meet to the public, and while it might draw a few local people, I think the risk is too great. When I stop and think about the amount of money changing hands and the value of all the trains in those buildings, I'm glad York is for members and invited guests only. Even at $50.00 a year, TCA membership is still a bargain in my opinion. I bet most people spend more than $50.00 a month on pizza and beer--and what does that get them? 

It's up to each of us as TCA members to grow membership and interest in the hobby. If each of us recruits just 1 new TCA member a year, I believe we will see attendance at York increase.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

OK Guys. Even if you don't go to OGR you should read this.

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/important-news-about-york#lastReply

Pete


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## Guest (May 2, 2016)

This is a suggestion I just posted on the OGR forum. What do you guys think? Is it reasonable or have I overlooked something?


_I have an idea. This is just a suggestion as a possibility. Since TCA members have badges that have their name and TCA number, non members could buy badges that are a different color and say something like non-member allowing them to get into the dealer halls but not the member halls. If I remember correctly there were two large layouts, one O and one S, in the Black hall, no vendors. Non members could be allowed in the dealer and layout halls while members and guests get access to all halls. This would allow members to sell without a tax ID while vendors would do business as usual. This would allow the general public in while still encouraging membership in the TCA.

_


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Joe, Thats actually one of the solutions that has been discussed. Members would get the traditional badges, non members would get wrist bands or similar. 
This all hinges on the PA Tax authority working out a deal with TCA and EDTCA. Not worth getting too excited until this major roadblock solved.

Pete


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## Tucgary (Sep 21, 2015)

I have been on the O gauge forms for over 3 years now, [6 York's] and what I see is burnout.
Everyone has made excellent suggestions about what needs to be done.
In reality you all need ONE QUALITY York meet a year!
Reduces the twice a year expense and wear and tear on EVERYONE!
Have Sat. Orange hall open to the public.
Just a view from southern Arizona. Tucgary


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No burnout here, I'm already planning for the next York.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

GRJ you are not the only one.


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## Guest (May 3, 2016)

Norton said:


> Joe, Thats actually one of the solutions that has been discussed. Members would get the traditional badges, non members would get wrist bands or similar.
> This all hinges on the PA Tax authority working out a deal with TCA and EDTCA. Not worth getting too excited until this major roadblock solved.
> 
> Pete


Thanks for the info, Pete.


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## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

*York meet suggestions*

Declining attendance for two meets at York why not have one at York and another in a different city each year. You can call it "The Traveling York Show" complete with all the vendors, dealers, etc that makes York so special that everyone talks about. Many of us would then have a chance to experience the York Show. As stated by attendees York Show is well put together. Why not have York travel each year to share that experience with others to increase awareness of our hobby and introduce new younger members of our hobby to that experience to grow the next generation of train lovers. Exposure to our hobby is one way to grow our hobby. I would love to go to York someday but the cost is just out of my range. Like the Lionel catalog of my youth, I can dream about owning all of it but in real life it ain't gonna happen. Just my two cents worth.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

To me, the only reason I would go to York is social - to make new friends and meet old ones. This last meeting was the first I have ever been to. I drove up for the MTF dinner and back the next day, skipping everything else. I can see doing that again. I am sure the exhibits and shows by the manufactuers and the shopping are fun, but I get all of the enjoyment and spend all of the money I have now, without ever entering an orange or any other color hall. 

I loved the dinner and hope to be at the next one. It's the same week as my youngest boys wedding though, so I hope I can juggle schedules enough to make it.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Dear John, I agree with Pete,a large TCA meeting like York in other locations at difference times of the year would be great. York is pretty much limited to the North east except for a few of us Midwest guys who drive 12 hours. What about the other 40 states? I was noticing that most of the people who like it in York, are within a 3 hour drive.

Twice a year in York is what is killing it. I understand that it's sponsored by the eastern division and that division is very rich in cash, while the National is broke. Maybe if the National would branch out and suport other locations, it could become more liquid and grow it's membership. One of the complaints about not joining the TCA is that it doesn't do a lot unless you want to go to York.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Norton said:


> Joe, Thats actually one of the solutions that has been discussed. Members would get the traditional badges, non members would get wrist bands or similar.
> This all hinges on the PA Tax authority working out a deal with TCA and EDTCA. Not worth getting too excited until this major roadblock solved.
> 
> Pete


Actually there's no deal to be worked out if as proposed, the general public is not admitted to member halls, as is already the status quo there.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Politics politics, politics love you guys, but it seems a lost cause. Why join the TCA, I can get all my information for free here or at at any other site. On top of that , eBay is where my purchases are money is spent. As the op posted, were doing the best we can, after that its the manufactures fault for not attracting new people. Its dying, I dont want it to , but it is. The hey day was in the past, most of us remember that and try to create it. Kids today dont know or want to know model trains. Sorry , but its true. Maybe the 3 or 4 year old is enamoured, but after that they got video games, and you tube. Who wants a train that basically does nothing? If 55 is the medium age for model railroads ill give all my stuff up for free.. This is not to say some will not come back to the hobby. But mostly its going to go the way of baseball cards, stamps, etc. Trains were cool when they came out. Electrical toys were few and people were amazed at what could be done. That time is over. And yes I own trains, but my parents were older, and I too strive to relive my youth. Mostly because I have kids, thats the second demographic of model railroads. Ill try to pass it along, mostly, like my neighbor , no one will want it. Im cool with that


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

ogaugeguy said:


> Actually there's no deal to be worked out if as proposed, the general public is not admitted to member halls, as is already the status quo there.


The old deal was no non members would be allowed in the Fairground buildings. The new proposed deal would be to allow non members to to participate in at least part of the show. 
I have no idea about any of the details of the arrangements of the original deal but I do know the principals trying to work out this new aggreement very well and can assure you the tax issue is a significant stumbling block. Its now complicated by the fact that the official that was involved with the original negotiations has now retired so TCA-ED will have to deal with new people. Who knows how receptive they will be or if they will choose to rescind the previous agreement and make everyone collect sales tax.

Pete


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

York is the size event that is due largely to the army of volunteers in the Eastern Division. The TCAs roots are in PA. We can't change that, but if another division wants to host a semi annual meet at a large venue like the York fairgrounds, I doubt anyone will stand in their way. Perhaps once a year at York and once a year in the western part of the U.S. is the way to go, but again it would require a big commitment from volunteers in the division where it's held.


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## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

*York Show it's own section*

Maybe it's time for the York Show posts to have it's own section in the forum home section. That way everyone who can go to the York Show can talk about it there and those of us who can't go can talk about our layouts or get info on how to fix our problems with our trains or what we just purchased etc. It's like always seeing a movie trailer tease of a great movie on TV day and night but the movie is only playing at one movie theater a zillion miles away and most of us can only wonder what you guys/gals are talking about.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I've had great York meets both times I've attended. A lot to see, no doubt. And met a lot of great folks that I've chatted with online. Everyone was very gracious and welcoming to a newcomer like me. 

For a west coaster, it's a haul to get back to PA. I hear they might be opening up Saturday to the public in the Orange Hall. Interesting.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Long overdue to open up to the public, even if it's just on Saturday. Like Todd says, the west coast is a long way to go to a train show on Thursday and Friday. I've been twice and wouldn't do it again unless I went as a vendor.... and that is even a bigger stretch to get a product there from CA. Especially when you consider Thursday is a wash for the most part.

When the Big 4 step up and say, it's time for a change.... that says A LOT! From everything I've seen in person and online.... I don't blame them.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Every organization works hard to survive, and yet clings to habits and legacy concepts that impede it doing so. TCA is no exception. 

Frankly, I think TCA is already pretty far behind the curve. They should have had east and west coast "York" meetings (maybe one each year near each coast), or a moving venue that visits major cities in turn, for at least the last twenty years. They should have opened the halls to the public, etc. And they should have used the internet and social media a lot more - a lot more. 

I shop by the internet more than in person now, and I'm an old-fashioned guy who is set in his ways. I think TCA is too anchored in the past, and maybe no longer that relevant. Someone who is and thinks in modern terms could crowd them out, I imagine, if they tried, so TCA doesn't have a lot of time left to change.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

TCA does have national conventions that are in different cities every year. Last year it was in New York City, this year in Houston. The TCA national actually has little to do with the shows, even the Nationals. The local chapters do most of the leg work with oversight from the National. York is really just another local show. It just happens to be the largest but there are dozens of others. 
Some of the other National organizations like LOTS, LCCA, and TTOS are a little more hands on when it comes to their National Conventions but they still all rely on individuals from the local area to make suggestions on activities and locations.

Pete


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## Guest (May 3, 2016)

*The bottom line* is the York Meet still is the best place to meet and greet O-Gauge enthusiasts, find O-Gauge train equipment, and see the largest collection of cottage industry guys. We would not miss it.


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## Guest (May 3, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> Every organization works hard to survive, and yet clings to habits and legacy concepts that impede it doing so. TCA is no exception.


Absolutely right on the money Lee! All the proof you need is on the TCA website landing page. Other than access to the York Meets, TCA's big claim to significance is that they operate a Museum and Library. 

Modern Museums and Libraries rely heavily of government funding. The era of successful Private Museums and Libraries ended in the 60's. TCA was founded in 1954 so I can see why they originally set up the way they did. 

Today's TCA membership fee is, to a lot of people (I know: "Not everybody"), just a Cover charge to attend York. It's like paying a "Two drink minimum" at a comedy club even though you don't drink. 

They should open York up to the public, while maintaining their own version of the "Two drink minimum". And they have to evolve into something more than a Museum and Library. That's where fossil's and old manuscripts live. Not that those aren't important. They are. It's just that fossils and manuscripts don't attract new members in the same way that an awesome online forum would.

Emile


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

When I lived in Walnut Creek, CA (SF East Bay Area), the TCA had a local chapter and would attend those meetings. I would guess roughly 200+ attended those meetings and the "train meet" after the business meeting was fairly large and always had a variety of train items to look at and buy. It was in no way as big as York, but I could drive there and meet fellow train junkies like myself.

I remember Mark Boyd, who is the editor of the TCA magazine, once say publicly in the meeting that the TCA is basically an East Coast organization and rarely anyone from the west coast is elected to the board or as an officer. (Mark is a great guy if you ever have the opportunity to meet him. He is a train collector of vintage trains.)

The York meet had some stringent rules during the first time I attended, but to their credit relaxed those rules to make the meet more enjoyable. I remember I had a good laugh with Mike Wolf when I asked him for a picture with me. We went outside and snapped it.

Emile, I agree with your observations about the TCA membership fee being much like a cover charge, at least for me. I hope to attend again and if I do, I'll be happy to pay the membership or entrance fee, no problem. 

The TCA museum is very nice, albeit small. They did have several layouts running with a nice variety of trains on the display wall.


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## Guest (May 3, 2016)

Norton said:


> The old deal was no non members would be allowed in the Fairground buildings. The new proposed deal would be to allow non members to to participate in at least part of the show.
> I have no idea about any of the details of the arrangements of the original deal but I do know the principals trying to work out this new aggreement very well and can assure you the tax issue is a significant stumbling block. *Its now complicated by the fact that the official that was involved with the original negotiations has now retired so TCA-ED will have to deal with new people. Who knows how receptive they will be or if they will choose to rescind the previous agreement and make everyone collect sales tax.*
> 
> Pete


Pete makes a very good point. The current agreement allowing no sales tax may not be continued by those now in charge if any changes are made. Any change to the current agreement may invalidate it. That may involve negotiating a new agreement and the PA tax people may not be willing to forgo any sales tax revenue.


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## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

I hope they open the meet up to the public and offer a point to ponder for all of you folks that have been members for years. Several of you use the quote I go for the social aspect, to meet new folks and renew friendships. What does the TCA and the ED do to encourage and develop those networks? It is easy for the folks who have developed the relationships. If a new member were to attend, is that a mentor assigned? Is there a new member welcome to the group meeting? If there is a TCA dinner is there an opportunity for the new member to be placed at a table with existing members for a meet and greet? Everything described by the folks who what things as they are describe an organization that is inward looking, that is not an organization primed for growth.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Henry, you make an excellent point, there should be an opportunity for non-TCA folks to rub elbows with the long-time York attendees. If you get to York, you're certainly welcome to come to the MTH functions, TCA or not.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Some of the long time members could probably better answer that. I have only been a member for ten years now. That may have been one of the reasons for needing two sponsors to join. They would assumably be friends who could show you the ropes. There is no dinner, where to sit 10,000 people? They do have an ice cream social on Friday nights and coffee and donuts on Saturday morning. Most of the ED officers attend these and can be identified by their shirts. Most all are friendly and welcome questions and conversation.
Most of the time you can just sit down and start a conversation. Most everyone there has something in common.

Pete


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## Guest (May 3, 2016)

Henry, I joined the TCA last August and this was my first York. I was invited to the dinner at Alexanders by Brian (Passenger Train Collector) and met many MTF members for the first time. I wasn't treated as an outsider or newcomer by the older members. I really felt like I belonged and was meeting with old friends. It was a great experience and I hope to go again though it won't be as easy as I am moving to Florida this summer. 

As I wandered through the halls I ran into MTF members and spent some time with them. I don't know if it would have been as positive a social experience if I weren't an MTF member. Brian will post an invitation to the next Thursday night dinner in October. If you can go I would encourage you to attend the dinner.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

It's funny to me how so many people get up in arms about the sales tax issue. Try doing a show in CA and then complain about it 

Ever seen the signs that say.... $120, including tax. You can easily build the sales tax into the total price like most of the vendors at CA shows. It's is the vendors/dealers responsibility to actually pay the state. 

Membership fees, cover charge, entry fees.... again... come to CA and then complain about. That's a part of doing or going anywhere these days. Do you even want to know how much it cost to get into Disney land? for a family of 4 for the day?

I'm headed to Santa Clara tomorrow for O Scale West this weekend. 7 hours 1 way

Registration and 2 tables - $125
4 nights at the Hyatt Regency $600 (that's where the show is at)
Rental Car $320
Food and drinks for 5 days???

I won't even break even...it's not about that. It's one of those things on my bucket list anyway, and now I have a "real reason" to go. Anyone who wants to go can register, pay and show up. Do you think it will be full of strollers and families on a weekend get away.. of course not, but you can go if you want to.

and YES, I have a CA Seller's Permit. It's required by law for ANY show that I sell my product. Not a big deal.


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## Guest (May 3, 2016)

It's not paying the sales tax that's the problem, it's that all vendors have to have a tax ID. The member halls have lots of stuff for sale by members who don't have tax ID numbers. If sales tax is required it eliminates members renting a table and selling items they no longer need. Here in NY you can't sell at a train show unless you have a tax ID number.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am optimistic the ED can pull this off. Its been said that the two TCA shows bring in more money to the area than any other event. Its in PA's interest not to kill it. The top officers in the ED are successful business people and should be able to make the argument.

Pete


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## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

Joe, What you described is admirable but that function was conducted by an individual associated with this forum, not as a function of the TCA. It appears this group functions at a different level but as an organization there is a lack of reach outside the comfort of themselves. Now don't get me wrong, had they been better at outreach they still may be in the same position simply because the landscape is different. Smart phones, twitter, ebay, have all changed how and when we do things. For example, MTH provides a daily newsletter, a small thing but I get that in my inbox every day (it seems). Model railroader and CTT provide frequent electronic updates promoting themselves and the hobby. I am uncertain how well those tools work but it is certainly worth a try. Back when I led a professional organization that was having a membership crisis we went to the potential members, visiting every work site to explain the benefits of membership. When we had meetings we identified new members and the local officers were encouraged to sit and speak with the new members, introducing them around so they were not wall flowers that became one and done at the meeting. I may be the only president in the history of the organization who fired a volunteer officer because they were unwilling to get on board with the process. The outcome was we increased membership by several hundred gaining a market penetration of about 65% of likely members. Our vendors appreciated it because at our annual meeting there was more contact so their outlay for attendance was worth while. I believe that outcome is what the TCA needs. Opening York to the public is a good first step but unless it is followed with education on the value of membership and an attempt to engage new members any success will be short lived. An infusion of new members and perhaps new leaders (not that the current group is doing a bad job) might help. I suspect the TCA is having problems getting folks to run for office and it is very easy to recycle past leadership. That does create stagnation. They have a tough road ahead, as I said I hope it goes well for them.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I am asking this question, as I do not know the answer, without a lot of searching. Are there other TCA sponsored Train Shows other than the York events held in April and October, by other divisions. I of course am under the umbrella of the Eastern Division, which is where TCA Headquarters, Museum, and Ref. Library are all located. From a lot of questions about membership, and why to join, the general consensus has been mainly to attend York, as a Member, with the present benefits, but more toward a Social Gathering for the masses.

Most of the Train Shows that people attend are not supported by the TCA per se, and are listed as a Greenberg show, or sponsored by a local club, totally separate from the TCA. It is quite obvious that the TCA is struggling with diminishing numbers, and has a financial problem, that has no easy solution. The Museum, from most of the comments I have read, is losing money, to sustain itself. The problems with the TAX Exemption, as it stands right now, is one thing that makes York work, without a lot of hassles. The discussions about opening up the York event to outsiders, to specific areas of the show, is a good idea, to attract new blood into the hobby. BUT, it most likely would change what Halls would be available to the open public, having the Tax problem come up with having to have a Tax number, and having to report sales, etc.. It will be a tough issue to rectify.

From what I can see, York meets are the only true TCA meets available, of which you have to be a member. Are there other meets put on by the TCA, that would require membership, to attend, other than York?? Would someone care to answer?


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## Joe Hohmann (Nov 5, 2015)

Norton said:


> OK Guys. Even if you don't go to OGR you should read this.
> 
> http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/important-news-about-york#lastReply
> 
> Pete


Good example of a "kiss Rich's fanny" thread.


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## Joe Hohmann (Nov 5, 2015)

If they want to open it to the public, they better do some expensive newspaper and radio advertising...and warn that very little HO and N will be found.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Norton said:


> Joe, Thats actually one of the solutions that has been discussed. Members would get the traditional badges, non members would get wrist bands or similar.
> This all hinges on the PA Tax authority working out a deal with TCA and EDTCA. Not worth getting too excited until this major roadblock solved.
> 
> Pete


What's the big deal about getting a PA sales tax license? There is no charge and the reporting of sales tax collected is very easy and can be done either on the phone or over the Internet.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

As I posted in another reply York PA is not the location for an open to the public show. Anyone who has attended a Greenberg show there can attest to that. 

That show is not held in the Orange but in either the Blue or Silver Hall and it does not take up the entire space. I went to the show several years ago and our group did TMCC demos on a number of occasions and I can tell you that the attendance is very small.

In a discussion several years ago with Dick Maddox when he was president of Lionel I asked him about the impact of opening the York meet to the public and he felt that it would have little or no affect due to the location. You just would not get the excepected draw unless it were moved closer to either Baltimore, DC, or somewhere else along the I95 corridor. 

I also doubt that the manufacturers would be open to the Saturday concept. They already have four days of expenses that would be stretched to five.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The big deal is all about the hundreds of member sellers that might have to now collect and report the tax which none of them have to do now. I suspect the majority of them would stay home or no longer sell.
Its not a big deal in the Orange Hall now as all of the those dealers are supposed to collect the tax. 
What is not known at this point is whether Pennsylvania will be willing to alter the original agreement give the members a pass while enforcing tax collection in the Dealer hall.
Everyone knows that change is going to have to happen. ED is losing money now. The hope is they will be able to raise revenue without alienating too many of its members.
One of the reason attendance is down is the big increase dues the National charged. That turned off a lot of people. I have a few friends that no longer go because of the cost. 15 bucks may not seem like a lot but its is to many.

Pete


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Norton said:


> The big deal is all about the hundreds of member sellers that might have to now collect and report the tax which none of them have to do now. I suspect the majority of them would stay home or no longer sell.
> Its not a big deal in the Orange Hall now as all of the those dealers are supposed to collect the tax.
> What is not known at this point is whether Pennsylvania will be willing to alter the original agreement give the members a pass while enforcing tax collection in the Dealer hall.
> Everyone knows that change is going to have to happen. ED is losing money now. The hope is they will be able to raise revenue without alienating too many of its members.
> ...


Under PA law those member sellers would be considered occasional sellers and not subject to collecting sales tax. It's just like people who have an occasional yard sale. They are not required to have a tax license or to collect sales tax.

As far as I know the ED is the richest division in all of the TCA. You can go to the TCA site and read the financials of all of the divisions. I doubt if they are losing any money.

It's the TCA National that is losing money not the ED.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

TJ, next time you go to York, go to the open business meeting. The ED has lost money on the last two shows despite raising the entrance fee by 2 bucks for everyone including the wives.
I am not the one to argue with. I am only giving you the facts. If you don't believe me just contact one of the ED officers.

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Exactly TJ... all those members selling at the Spring and Fall shows would not be required to have a tax ID or collect tax. Most states are the same where that is concerned..... even CA. Selling used/old stuff at a "swap meet" does not require the collection of sales taxes. 

Thats why the halls are split up the way they are now.

Times change, you either adapt or move on. It's quite simple.... and thats what the Big 4 are telling York.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Well, the paid attendance at the April York was estimated at a little over 11000. That figure came from a discussion with one of the workers at the Nicholas Smith booth.

So, simple math indicates that the median entrance fee was $10.00. Half the members paid the full price and half paid the senior rate of $8.00. So, if my math is correct they received over $110000 in entrance fees. That does not take in account anyone walking up and paying the $20.00 entry fee.

Most of the larger dealer spaces were pretty expensive. The person at the NS booth told me that their primary booth was $2000 and they had two other spaces that they rented in the orange hall.

So, if there were 20 dealer and manufacturer spaces at $2000 each that would be another $40,000.

What they receive in member tables is anyone's guess but probably another $20,000 at least.

So, the ED got perhaps $170,000 or more in revenue not to mention the RV rental or the revenue they got for charging for electricity.

Now as part of their expenses they need to pay for the fairgrounds, I tried to find out what the rent is but could not get that information, security, table and chair rental and other expenses.

So, if they are losing money it is because attendance is down. If the big four either pull out or downsize they will lose even more money.

Now, if the poster who said I should attend the Saturday meeting would send me or post a copy of the financial statement for the York meet that would be great.

PS: The ED put up a banner on the entrance to the fairgrounds that indicated that the meet was open to the public. What they were doing is letting first timers who just happened to see the banner attend as a guest. I wonder how many people they got to come in register as a guest and pay the $20.00 to walk the halls.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I had an idea to boost attendence at the ED York meet.

Not to open it to the public, I don't think you would get the draw they would need, but what if members of the LCCA, LOTS and other model railroad organizations could attend TCA meets without being a member of the TCA. 

Just include a copy of your membership card, pay the entrance fee, $14.00 under 65 and $8.00 over with the $20.00 fee at the door.

This is of course a pipe dream but you never know.

I did send an e-mail to LCCA president and he though it was a good idea to help increase membership in the LCCA.

Maybe some former members of the LCCA or TCA dropped out in favor of one or the other since they could not justify paying for two memberships.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

One more thing.

I belong to the USGA even though I no longer play golf. For my $25.00 annual membership I get a USGA US Open golf hat, discount tickets to USGA Events, free admission to ameture events in my area and other benefits

I also belong to the Martin Guitar Owners Club. For my $45.00 I get a new guitar strap each year, a set of new strings and a 20% discount in their Factory shop and other benefits like a once a year member behind the scenes tour of the Martin Factory.

So, what do I get with the TCA? A newsletter with posting for items for sale and another publication a couple of times a year. Entry to the ED York meet is the only, and I repeat only reason, I pay $50.00 to be a member.

I go to see my friends at the York meet and that is all !!


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

As far as I am concerned they tried to end the bandit meets. Did not work. I could care less about the ED. I think as time goes on the York meet will just dry up and blow away. 

It was a great source of revenue for the ED but now they are finding out that their methods have to backfired.

BTW: The TCA stopped publishing the financials of their divisions, at least I could not find the latest on the ED, on the TCA we site. I think they were embarrassed buy how many millions the ED had versus the Nationlal TCA.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

TJ I have been following what you are saying. Obviously changes are needed.

But please, you live in Kitty Hawk. We have a place in Southern Shores. Please don't talk about blowing away because we might get it first. Maybe an earthquake or volcano would be better.


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

It will not be easy to re-focus the York meet. Many of the people who used to go to buy now find things online and that's where many of the used-to-be York only deals can be found, everyday. The last few years, in particular, I see fewer people carrying stuff around and to their cars. Anecdotal, I know, but consistent with what the dealers are reporting. Moreover, the market for postwar, a market where a member-to-member of private sales has real value, has dwindled as the focus has shifted to operation. 

I would consider opening the event to the public on Saturday to be a good idea. Anything to get the word out and increase attendance is required or the show is going to die. I also think they should consider having it once a year, closer to Christmas. The only people who look at trains in April are the die-hards. (This is a statement against interest because I typically go in April and not always in October.) 

Finally, I know that national is not the same as ED, but the museum needs to go. If one reviews the financials that national puts out each year, it was 100% clear that the dues increase was essential because much of the balance sheet was comprised of difficult to value, illiquid assets and without the increased income from the assessment the organization was in trouble. The ability of national, and ED, to react to changing demographics and challenges will be greater, and the time horizon to find an appropriate solution, will be longer, if the two organizations are on a sound financial footing.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

What if the four major manufacturers stopped exhibiting. What impact might that have on attendence?

Does anyone remember the effort by K-Line when they held their K-Line days at large venues like Greenberg does. What was their attendence like? Was it crowded?

What if Lionel, MTH, Bachmann and Atlas set up a show at say the Edision NJ location where Greenberg holds their show. They invited the ten top dealers of these companies to sell and opened it up to the general public with a ticket price of say $7.00.

What if they just rented one of the ballrooms at one of the hotels that no longer hold a bandit meet and invited large dealers to sell. Entrance would be free and open to the public.

What impact would that have?

I have a good friend who sells in the Silver Hall and has several tables. He also sells at the Firehouse bandit meet. 

Guess what. Over the past several years he has done so much more business at the FireHouse that he may decide not to renew his tables and just go to York to buy. He told me a lot of the customers don't belong to the TCA and don't go to the ED meet.


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