# Motors of the Rue Morgue



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have started this thread as an instruction on some motor basics. As luck would have it I have some willing candidtes. My first two rules pertain to ebay. One to buy the engine whole and second buy the engine with the wheels aligned. Now look at the two pictures.










Both have miss aligned wheels. To have side rods the screw holes need to line up for both wheel to turn. These engines had side rods but were removed because the wheels were removed and not placed back on correctly.
Scouts are notorious for this, but they don't have joining rods.

The second engine is a 258 I verified with an e bay photo evne with the two position switch.


----------



## Smokestack Lightning (Oct 31, 2010)

Cool thread


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Excellent points.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Gooood Evening and Welcome to my Morgue of dead Motors.

Next I removed the wheels and had one surprise on the 259e.










Yep that's not an evil laugh you herd but my screams of terror!
Someone filed the edges of the shaft, both of them. Big surprise there, not really I read the signs!!!!!!

So how does a square axle fit a round hole?????

Simple ,you goo something in there. But I don't know what??????











Notice the inside has a collar . I thought it was metal but maybe fiberglass.
Some bits broke off when I freed the wheels.

So i guess turning the wheels to align them is out of the question for no.w


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Me thinks new axles are in order.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*View the corpse*










The frames on the prewar are nice and shiny. On postwar the are blued. The only thing of interest is the bushing . The axle fits through it, over time it wears out. On an engine like this it may not big a big deal but to a 2333 it can be a problem. See the 2333 is an all wheel drive with a worm gear shaft. Everthing needs to be tight to work but one bushing or axle bearing gets plays and then the brass gear wears on the shaft and teeth start to war extra fast. Then it gets to the point the worm drive slips over the brass gear. Then it doesn't work of course. 

Did I learn the lesson? No i bought another motor before these. It has very loose bushings I should make a video just to show how much play there is, but some other time.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My Scout fiasco has taught me not to mess with motors.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Frankenstein theory*

This is a T man special rule. If you have enough parts something is bound to fit to make it work.


How may people post here, on what they have is broken???  A lot.

Parts is the key, you need to get them , you need to have them, you need savvy to use them. You need patience to get you through.

How much patience??? A lot.

For example my 2333 bought in the early 80's and didn't get fixed until I joined this forum a few years back. 

Along with the Frankenstein theory is the backup. The backup is a piece that works and can be changed when the primary is down. Years ago with a Volkswagen I had a backup carburetor. When the primary didn't work I replaced it with the backup to use the car Later I would rebuild the bad one and have another backup. This applies to trains too . How about a switch??? Gee if it doesn't work, replace it, get the train running and the kids laughing. Then you have fun with the bad switch. You take it apart play with it ,apply voltage and have it do funny things.
So the lesson is not to leave yourself short. Don't depend on one switch or one engine. The more the merrier. I understand a broken piece can be a disaster but you need a recovery plan. To me a bad engine is just sidelined until I can recover it. An advantage of having more than One.



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Me thinks new axles are in order.


So back to my wheels and axles....The 260 (258) has the same ones. I looked at them. With some red paint on the spokes they will look new. Talk about luck.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Coiled Again!*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> My Scout fiasco has taught me not to mess with motors.


Exactly, So I relate my fiasco. 

The 259e motor does check out. I rewired the parts, and I need a roller assembly. The brush plate is ok so is the armature and brushes. I am lucky, that on all eight wheels they are in good shape and not cracked.

The 260 is another story. I first checked the coil after the motor didn't work.The lead was missing.Kidnapped????


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Recovery*

I dug the end of the wire out. I used the screwdriver in conjunction with the hobby blade to exposed the bare wire from the lacquer. Then I just soldered another lead on and checked the continuity.


----------



## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Yeah, I can relate. My AF Hiawatha chassis while it has never been rebuilt, it also has never been lubed in 75 years. Yikes, it is really worn!!


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Good tire, old and tired.*

Ont the old 248 I have one good driver. And some bad.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Good thread.

Is the motor in the top-right Post #1 photo from the 259, or from the 1689?

I'm laughing (sorry) at the motor photo, as to why anyone would ever mount the wheels that way, with the cranks out of alignment ... crazy. On one of my 1681's, someone had flip-flopped wheels at some point, and put the drive wheel with the crank on the front, and the wheel without the crank on the back. What are these people thinking?!?

Complete sidebar, to go with your Volkswagen story ...

We bought our house 3 years ago. Crappy, old kitchen. A few months in, the big microwave dies. The magneto fried. GE wanted $280 to replace it! Crazy. Instead, my wife cruised Craigslist, and found someone giving away a free microwave ... same size. Quick swap out, and we're golden. But, my wife is smitten with Craigslist. A year later, she finds another free microwave, grabs it, and sticks it in our basement. "Why?", I ask ... "We don't need another one, and it's just taking up precious room!" Famous last words ... I'll be eating them soon. A week ago, the magneto on microwave #2 fried itself, and I did another flip-flop swap to microwave #3! And, broken #2 is down in the basement, sitting in #3's old spot. Wife called GE, nagged them, and they're sending out a replacement magneto for free. I'll have to figure out how to do a magnetoectomy, but at least I'm not forking over $280 the next time one of our micro's decides to crap out.

Do you need a broken magneto in your junk parts pile ?!?!? 

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A look at the 260 ( really an early 258)motor with wheels and the odd brushplate.











A 224 motor with the can brushplate and Baldwin drivers.


----------



## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

So does the 260 run?


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Nice story TJ!


The 260, at least I think it's a 260 has issues. It is pictue to the right of the 359e motor and it came with the 1689e shell. It's not even close to a fit. The motor didn't come with brushes. They are more like copper wool pads.

The armature plate is small. The brush surface area is just large enough for a fit. These are from the 259e.










After I fixed the coil I could assemble it with some 259 brushes and try it. It should work.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sorry ... still confused. In post #1, the motor on the right sure looks like the very same motor that's in the 259 shown in the photo on the left. If that's a 260 motor, did you just stick it in a 259 shell to see how it might fit?

Set me straight here, T ... 

(Sorry ...)

TJ

PS --

This just caught my eye on a 'net search ... scroll down on link to see a couple of nice pics of another 260 motor.

http://www.modeltrainjournal.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9961


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My 259e has a tale that resembles the Lionel JR. It's to the left and holds a bracket that attaches to the frame.










That 260 has no front tabs to fit in.



















The top is an early 258


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Thanks for that last side-by-side photo of the 259 vs. the 260 motor, above. Clarifies things very nicely. (I'm a happy camper again!)

Much appreciated.

As a sidenote, I find it interesting that so many of these old locos underwent production changes over a period of years. Your early-generation 259 motor and wheelset is a bit different from my younger-generation 259 motor and wheelset. I think I saw an online photo of later-generation 260 motor that had double (rather than single) reduction gears. We need to start making the cheat-sheet evolutionary family tree of how these things all evolved from each other.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Motor test.*

Not much exists on prewar so the more info the better. The 259e needs a center pickup. I will have to go 'new' on that. The so called 260 motor works so the armature and coil are good. It is very similiar to the 259e frame on one side. it may be a later model. Who knows?

That's why I am no complaining about the e bay purchase 1689e. The shell and motor are worth it. I would of been real lucky if it had a complete roller assy. But one side is missing!

To test this motor. I know the coil is grounded to the fram when I fixed the wire. I jumped that to a brush. Then with two leads from a transformer with power I touch the frame and the other brush. That's it.

You can bypass the e unit on a conventional post war. The coil lead is on the brush side of the e unit. Disconnect both brushes. Jump from the coil to a brush. Then the same with the leads. Frame and other brush. 

This way you bypass the center roller and e unit.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*AF 307 motor*

Good evening! I have another on the slab but it is still kicking. I removed the wheels to ease the pain. Ha Ha I am only two months late with this thread so bear with me. 

Not much there a cast frame to support a motor to drive a worm gear on the rear axle. 










Can you hear the scream!!!!
Look no wheels!!!


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*More 307 Bits*

Say Ahhh! There is the worm gear. Along with the top view of the frame/chassis.
Don't mind the red paint.











The gear out. . The One Arm-ature. Removed of course.









The hole for the armature to the worm gear. and the mount for the motor.







...


The coil and brush plate. The hollow where the armature goes..











Tomorrow, press techiques to get the drivers on. Spacing is everything. Back to the S Scale thread.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think the patient needs more ether!

Neat surgery pics, T ... thanks for sharing,

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Motor Lobotomy*

The e unit is the brains and tells the motor which direction to go. They can have issues and occasionally fizzle out.

To do this on the 259e was easy. The two brush wires are screwed on. There was no light wire yet. So I unsolder-ed the field coil and center pickup from the e unit. To make it go forward all the time, take note. The coil faces forward. Normally the field coil is back. This wire goes to the top brush. The center wire goes to the bottom brush. That's it, forward all the time.

The test run on the track without rods was fine. Forward is to the left.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Special Guest*

A 259e e unit .... exposed. 

The lever sits opposite from the more common model.
The coil is missing. It sits on a cardboard tube on the center post. Notice the staple ends that hold it in.









Shown is the shaft and pawl the rotates the drum. The 15 or so layers of wire used, with each layer wrapped in wax paper.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Just back from a little Christmas break. Hope you and yours had a happy holiday.

I've never seen an e-unit solenoid coil unwound like that. I would have thought that the wire (though thin) would have some sort of insulating coating on it. If so, why would they have to place wax paper between each consecutive layer? Simply for some added protection?

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think they add the paper to keep the coils winding uniformly, I've seen that in other coils.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John,
Are you going to rewind the coil? If so, you can buy magnet wire at www.skycraftsurplus.com It won't show on their web site, but call them. They have a huge selection of wire.
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I recommend a drill press to spin the coil if you're going to wind it.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

John,

Wouldn't a drill press spin too fast to control wire placement during the rewind? (Though I guess some presses can be adjusted for low RPM).

Just curious ... never tried anything like that on my end.

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

THe wire is so small I don't see how you could aim it. Any overlap will use up space. I need something to replace the cardboard tube. I am not sure of the wire gage. around 24 or 28.
I can use a variable speed drill. Joanns Fabric had thirty yards of wire in small gages. Just enough but I still have some from Radio Shack.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I used to wind coils when I was a kid using a hand drill that my dad had. It gives you good control. I clamped it in a vise with the crank on top and the shaft horizontal.
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can turn mine down to around 380 RPM, that should be slow enough. You can also clamp a hand drill in a vise and run it slower, but you'll find that going too slow will be tedious, there's a lot of turns on those coils!


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John,
I recommend a hand powered drill like all had before electric drill motors became cheap. You might be able to use an electric drill motor running slow. 380 RPM sounds very fast. That is more than 6 revolutions per second.
BB


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have used some yellow tape in the past to wind coils. It is very thin, but I have no idea where to get it. I might be able to find out with a phone call. I am wondering about the necessity for putting tape between the layers of the coil. Usually this is not done, and it adds to the bulk of the coil. BTW, do you know how many turns to put on the coil? Or just use the same size wire and fill it up. It can't be that critical.
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The problem with a hand powered drill is who is going to power it while you're guiding the wire onto the spool. 

380 may be too fast, when I wound a Tesla coil, I used a lathe.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Both of you are determined to see this through.
There were 15 layers. maybe 20 to 30 coils per layer.
What should I use against the metal post. I will have to have that on. when I turn it. I was thinking a straw but what about excess heat?


I used a Wendy's straw that will get me much closer than the card board tube. I need high and low walls for the wire to stop. IF I do it, I have 30 gage wire the smallest I have. I don't use it for jewelry so it won't be a big loss.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John,
I mounted the hand drill in a vise and operated the drill with my right hand and guided the wire with my left hand. 
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Why are you winding the coil on a straw? You want it wound on the original bobbin or this probably won't work. You do realize you have to use magnet wire, which is enamel insulated, right?


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

T, You want to make sure the wire size you use is the same as what was original. Otherwise, the E unit may not work well. You can find tables of wire sizes on the Internet. You will have to remove the insulation to get an accurate measurement of the wire diameter. Call Skycraft at www.skycraftsurplus.com for wire. They have a large stock of wire.
BB


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*1668*

What back again! Can you take the sight of oil and grease. Well then let's continue with the dissection. TJ you can close your eyes. 

First the top screw.










Then the draw bar gets removed.











The front tabs hold the engine in.










They can slide out except the light wire passed underneath. The screws are on the side for removal.










The side rod is undone with a 3/16th driver.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The motor is dirty.










It uses slides instead of rollers.










Has a can style brush plate.











A look at the e unit.










I drilled a hole for the light fixture with a 3/32 drill and tapped the hole for a number 4 screw.










The front has a red marker like the 249e.










The quartering is correct. The top is forward and the bottom faces up.










That's it.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

I'm drooling, actually. I love my 1668, and it's fun to see one "under the hood" again. Your motor doesn't look too bad at all. All of the bits and pieces seem to be there.

I had fogotten you had one of these. Is this the one that you picked up in CA some months back?

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Yes I am missing one red marker and one side rod.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> Yes I am missing one red marker and one side rod.


Easy-squeezy project, for you! Very nice!

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

AN ebay auction came through for me. The so called 260 motor is actually a 258 an old one. One of my desires. It did have the two position switch in the cab. Neat Huh! I need to process the ebay pics.

ebay engine


















My mysery solved? I wonder about the two extra wheel gears?


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

I love that top pic showing the manual switch. That's the first time I've ever seen a manual switch mounted "sideways" like that, with its pivot axis running side-to-side.

I like those old simple manual switches ... limits operation a bit, but does away with all of the required complexity of a standard e-unit.

Too bad about the condition of the wheels on that motor ... pretty chewed up.

I've read/seen that the evolution of motors of this general type (258, 259, etc.) evolved from a single-reduction gear to a dual-reduction (double) gear setup. You've got an example of each, above.

Some "tag" info for future searches ...

Lionel 258 260 motor manual switch sideways mount

Thanks, T!

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*212*

Tonights special guest is the 212 a Marine Corp Veteran Blue Alco.

The motor with an oil wick and e unit.









Small screws. The top is connected to the coil.










The well and armature with a worm gear shaft.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have one of those without the E-Unit, looking for a compatible E-unit that fits in the cab.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

I haven't fiddled with any Lionel diesels yet, but it's fun to see your under-the-hood pics. I like the oil wick setup.

A year ago, I knew nothing about how these old AC motors worked. Now (with thanks to guys like you), I enjoy looking at a motor design that I've never seen before (like this diesel setup) and seeing that all the basic parts are still there and make perfect sense. Things are pushed and pulled to a different orientation or configuration a bit, but it all comes down to simple brushes, an armature with a commutator face, a field-coil winding, etc. Simple, really. I think that's why I like these old-school setups ... basic, fundamental components.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

An earlier post was a bench test of a motor without the eunit. This diagram shows the same thing to remove an eunit and run an engine without it.
So the blue shows the disconnections and the reds are the connections. Simple.

To remove the e unit unsolder the two wires to the brushes. unsolder the light lead and the conection from the center roller. They will be together. Un solder the lead from the motor coil to the e unit. Be careful if you mess with the thin wire. You do not want to break it.
So five wire disconnect it

Now the brushes need two new wires. One connects to the center roller wire and the other to the motor coil. test first to make sure the motor goes forward. If not, reverse the wires. Also connect the light wire to the center roller wire. That is it.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Nice diagram.

I'll add (for others reading this) that if the motor runs in reverse as shown (due to direction of winding of the field coil), simply flip-flop the new wire leads going into and out of the armature. That'll change motor direction.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A Rich T diagram from way back.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*2328*

Tonights feature is my Burlington motor. 
After reviewing the explode diagram I wanted to see the thrust bearings and check the shaft condition. I only oiled it when I first got it.last April.


One screw removes the bottom tuck from the motor.










ANother screw exposes the frame and gears. I remembered cleaning the grease from here.









Now the motor, remove the c clamp at the bottom.










The inside is clean, looking at the washer, it has some wear. I should of sanded it it down but I didn't notice it untill I looked at the picture.










The bearings were greased in, One on each side of the bushing, I used a toothpick for removal and use some lithium grease.










The upper bearing was clean and the shaft needed a little polishing up with scotchbrite.










For now I put it back togetherwith plans to run it some more.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

This is a first for me. I've never seen a Lionel thrust bearing before ... didn't even know they existed! Way cool. Are they on most worm-gear motors? Do those tiny beads come loose when you have the bearing removed on the bench? (Or are they held captive somehow?) Thanks for the clear expanation / pics!

TJ


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I kept the cleaning to a minimum, for that reason. I hate chasing ball bearings around. ( my Rivarossi nightmare ) They did stay in place. Actually, it was the first time I have seen them too!

The washers did have grooves, next time around I will have to polish them.

Post War Collector is the expert here. Talk about missing If he went to school Xmas break should be starting soon.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The 726/736 motors have ball bearing thrust bearings, and they are loose balls without a retainer. I would advise against taking them apart.


----------



## seabilliau (Dec 12, 2011)

T-Man,
This may be sacrilig to some, but have you, or anyone else, ever considered converting an old Honrby-type clockwork locomotive to electric? I love the look of the small 0-4/6-0English steam engines but cant find any that aren't clockwork. I look at the ones on ebay and think, it must be possible to put a linoel motor underneath one of those. Think it's possible? Not sayin I'm capable of doing it, just wondering.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If I wanted one I would repaint a Thomas. English trains don't interests me because they are not readily available. A rusty engine interests me more than a Hornby. It doesn't keep me from looking. I have not gone to the Big E either.


----------

