# Problem with electrics



## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

Not necessarily a DCC only problem but it applies.


I have one turnout that doesn't want to get with the program(DCC). It is a long curved unit (Shinohara) which causes half of my locos to come to a halt. It has a long (about 2.5-3 inches) non-powered frog. The pickups on the non co-operative engines are less than 3 inches apart. If I attack the TO at full chat, they will slither across the dead frog with a bit of hesitation and continue on.....not a good solution for a logging RR. Short of rewiring the pickups on the locos, I need a better solution.

I'm new at this and think I need to make that frog hot without causing a short. The other non powered frogs (10-12, #4s, of em' work fine as frog hair, NPI.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Lot shorter frog on those #4s. Sounds like a power pickup problem more than a
problem with the turnout. I am going to have the same problem with some rivarossi
diesels I have. Only one truck on each side picks up power. Those long non powered frogs can cause a problem. Right now I am leaning towards powering the frogs and
use a switch to set polarity. Only on #6s and bigger. It just seems easier than adding
power pickup wipes to the problem engines. Good luck.


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

Sure, the frog itself is not the problem, the pickups on the locos are but as you say, solving the loco problem is a stinker. The climax has pickups that ate 4-5 inches apart and it putts right over the frog. One would think the 2-6-6-2 would be similar but no. It too has pickups like you described on your diesels and comes to a halt.

That TO is one pricey SOB (curved #8) & all glued down. It looks like I could shorten ( 3/4 inch easily.....but that last 1/4 inch I need is a stinker) the dead portion of the frog but that might get messy. Making the frog hot would involve removing the TO and putting in a polar reversing toggle & wiring the TO to suit.....of course I'd have to have a flashing red light to remind me to flip the toggle switch.

I guess I was hoping for some automated thingy to wire in that would do the polar reversal when the TO was thrown or something.


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

JPIII said:


> I guess I was hoping for some automated thingy to wire in that would do the polar reversal when the TO was thrown or something.


You haven't said how you operate your turnouts (manual or with a switch motor), but tortoise switch machines (and I think the Shinohara machines) have auxilliary contacts on them that can be be used for switching power to that pesky frog. 

There are about a million (well maybe less) videos on you tube that show switch machine installations and how to hook up the frog.

Now if you're doing ground throws for the switch....we've got an entirely different issue. 

Here's a long but good one one:


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

I am using ground throws.

I *think* I understand that the fella in the vid is using the tortoise as as a relay to power the frog, correct? He didn't spend much time on that aspect.

I can live with the situation for a while & not get bogged down on the overall construction. At this point it would be simpler to remove the long TO and replace it with a straight #4 TO......it would be ugly tho. A nice 32 inch radius with a straight section offends me..... and it shows I screwed the pooch. I could then take the TO to the bench and see what I could do about making the un-powered frog shorter without letting any smoke out of my other gizmos.

Thanks for the help, guys.


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## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

Non-powered frog and DCC locos with limited pick-up never really work well.
Best is to power the frog.

I use manual cabled turnout throws and 'Frog Juicer' to power the frogs. The 'juicer detects any short and switches the polarity of the frog to match (like a DCC reverse loop module). I can crawl my shortest loco through any turnout.

Frog juicer:
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/support/frogjuicers.html


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

waltr said:


> Non-powered frog and DCC locos with limited pick-up never really work well.
> Best is to power the frog.
> 
> I use manual cabled turnout throws and 'Frog Juicer' to power the frogs. The 'juicer detects any short and switches the polarity of the frog to match (like a DCC reverse loop module). I can crawl my shortest loco through any turnout.
> ...



PERFECT!!

Somewhere along the line I had heard of these but was at a loss to figure out where/when and , since I didn't know I would have a problem, I paid no attention to them......but it was rattling around in my head.....
Thanks, Walt

It would seem that the NCE mono frog juicer would be the hot ticket.....and cheep too. Hopefully I'll not have more than this one frog that needs help.
Installation looks to be pretty straight forward. I also looks like I can wire in in without ripping out the TO.

I too intend to use cable pull/push TO throws. I'll need some long ones .....much longer (up to 10-12 feet) than those at the RC aircraft store. I was thinking about annealing some copper tubing for the sheath but that's as far as I got. There is an outfit in OZ that makes a nice set-up for this but their web site is so sketchy about their "kit" as to be useless. Anything you can add here would be a help.

Thanks again.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You wouldn't need to remove the throwout to power the frog. You could just drill small holes through the TO & table to run feeders below the layout. Tortoise switches have leads that you would connect the wires to. Moving the switch would change the polarity of the frog.

Or - You could have a second car that always runs behind the engine as an auxilliary power pick-up and run some leads forward into the engine.

Don't get rid of the nice throwout to solve something that's fairly easily remedied.


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## waltr (Aug 15, 2011)

The turn-out throw system I use is from:
http://www.humpyard.com/

Their cable is about 1.5 meter long and is really the limit for this system. There is always some clearance between the ID of the tube and the cable OD that causes some loss of movement. Using a rigid tube/cable for the longest part of the run, preferably a straight section, should work.


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

I figure I need 6 at least, maybe 8. The prices ain't bad. 
I'd go with 1/8 id copper tubing annealed where I need to make bends and probably 1/16 dia solid wire.......all greased up.

Tortoise motors are not an option as the whole areas are foam all around bout 4-6 inches thick minimum. I can get a straight shot to the TOs with a long shank drill......I hope. What I have to do is come up with a solid mounting for the TO end of the sheath.

Thanks again.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

JPIII,
You can make the Tortoise S.M.'s work threw any depth of foam, It's really cheap and easy too.
I can provide the drawing on how to do it if you need it.
The frog juices are a very good option too!


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## JPIII (Jun 24, 2012)

I would be interested in a sketch of how it's done. I'm not locked into any actuation method....except by tight confines & 6 inches or more of foam.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

JPIII said:


> There is an outfit in OZ that makes a nice set-up for this but their web site is so sketchy about their "kit" as to be useless. Anything you can add here would be a help.
> 
> Thanks again.


If you (or any other members) need anything from Australia, and the store has a hassle with international shipping, I can act as a parcel fowarder for you.

International shipping prices from Aus to the rest of the world can be a bit pricey. so keep that in mind.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I'll dig out the pictures of the linkage here shortly.


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