# Can I add a whistle to 385 tender?



## Chris1965 (Apr 29, 2015)

I received the trains my late father had kept all these years, a basic pre-war standard gauge set with 385e locomotive, basic tender, and three passenger cars. No tracks or transformer yet. I will have to find those.

But what I'd REALLY like is to have a whistle. I saw that some 385's come with a 385W whistle tender which looks like a coal car. Those seem a little expensive at least on ebay.

I wonder if my basic tender can have a whistle added? Or should I just try to source a 385W?

Thanks, I'm new at this.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

In prewar O gauge, it's generally easy to add a whistle mechanism to a non-whistle tender.

You have Standard gauge. I assume the same is true, but I've never done it. The tricky part will be tracking down the proper mechanism and installing a pickup roller (to grab track power). Or, perhaps you'll get lucky, and find that an O-gauge whistle mechanism might fit/work.

The 385 is a gorgeous loco!

Where in RI are you located? (I'm RI, too.)

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Where in RI are you located? (I'm RI, too.)
> 
> TJ


Can't be that far, RI isn't that big.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Can't be that far, RI isn't that big.


With a Dunkin' Donut on just about every corner, too!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Where's Chris hiding? I was intrigued about his standard gauge tender project.

Come out, come out ... wherever you are!

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj, stop scaring the members. At this rate we'll have no one left!


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

My account stopped logging in and the recovery email never came so i just started a new account.

Anyway i have bigger fish to fry than the whistle. Namely I dont know what transformer to try and find or how to operate the train and any accessories such as the whistle building it came with. Is that little shed with a whistle wired separately from the tracks? Is that AC or DC?

I have a 1033 transformer but that only goes to 18v and my 385e could use up to 24 volt transformer.

I know that 1033 produces dc volts (if the rectifier is working or replaced with a diode) but what is DC used for when the train runs on AC?

I did get the e-unit working. As far as I know, just jog the power and it switches F-N-R back to F again each time.

But how do you operate the whistle independently of the train when its all the same power? (middle track one leg and outer tracks the other?)

Once I get the correct transformer and learn to run it, will be time to restore the three cars which are all scratched and dinged up. I do have the correct paint at least but it takes a lot more than that - take apart carefully, strip, fix dents as best as possible, prime, sand, etc and air bush. I think anyway! 

Any advice about the transformer and accessory power would be appreciated!

Thanks I know these are noob questions but have to start somewhere. This train set was my late fathers.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It is a common question . Knowing that it uses DC on the track for the whistle button. It activates a relay sensitive to DC and turns on the whistle motor. Look up any Lionel tender to see the parts same for the 1033. There are many good explanations online.


1033 circuit diagram


I will see what else I can find. Somewhere there is a chart with all the transformers listed.


The chart link


Another thread

It is best to search under the O Scale forum. The top threads have useful information and links.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Either a "V" or "Z" Postwar transformer will give you 6v-25v variable from all 4 terminals, when using the "U" as common. These transformers do not have any fixed voltages. The only drawback is the lack of a Whistle Control, in the transformer. You would need to use a remote whistle controller. Does the frame have any Cut-Outs for where the whistle air chamber would be located, and screw holes for mounting a whistle.?? If there is no indication, that a whistle could be mounted, and no pick-up roller, your tender is a 384T, which were used in the early 1933 sets.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

thanks so much those are a great help. I just wish the 1033 made 24 volts, but eventually I may be able to make a transformer that starts lower like 3v, and goes to 24 with taps and a rectifier diode for the accessories once I learn what uses what.

still a little confused that since the 385e can run on ac or dc, how can I run dc accessories without making the loco start moving... but will figure that out


and what does the 1033 "direction" lever do, just cut/start the power to activate the e unit?


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

thanks, we cross posted, I hadnt seen your xfmr info before posting the above... my tender is missing the fake coal tin and just has the cargo compartment. I am looking it over and there is only one small hole at the back of the coak compartment, so i guess it's what you describe.

as to a separate whistle controller, what is the voltage and is it ac or dc, I could probebly just make that if need be...

thanks



teledoc said:


> Either a "V" or "Z" Postwar transformer will give you 6v-25v variable from all 4 terminals, when using the "U" as common. These transformers do not have any fixed voltages. The only drawback is the lack of a Whistle Control, in the transformer. You would need to use a remote whistle controller. Does the frame have any Cut-Outs for where the whistle air chamber would be located, and screw holes for mounting a whistle.?? If there is no indication, that a whistle could be mounted, and no pick-up roller, your tender is a 384T, which were used in the early 1933 sets.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

This is my Dad running this exact train! What transformer is that, and is that a whistle controller he is pressing?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Chris, What does the tag on the side say?? Does it just say “Lionel Lines”, or does it say “Lionel *Railway* Lines. From the video, it looks like it is only Lionel Lines.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

Lionel Lines


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Hate to bust your bubble, you don’t have the 385 tender. The tender should be 8 3/16” long, and the side tag Specifically says “The Lionel Railway Lines”, and that is only tender marked that way. You need to post photos, so we can identify what you have.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

Okay when I get home from work I will take some pictures. 

Also can anyone tell me what Transformer that is from the film? And what is that other thing that my father is pressing is that a whistle control perhaps of some kind?

It would be great if I could find that out!

Thank you


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

After looking at the video, the transformer looks like a Type “W” transformer. The binding posts for wire hookups, are located on the back, compared to other Prewar transformers with binding posts on the top. The tender looks like it is the 384T, which came in both Black & Gunmetal Grey. The loco is definitely a 385E if it is Gunmetal, but if it is Black, it would be the 1835E.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chris, just chiming in a bit further on the whistle operation ...

Lionel whistles operate by imposing a DC power signal onto the normal AC power, all on the same track rails. The whistle relay looks for and then senses the DC signal, engaging the whistle to activate. Also, at the same time, a shunt is automatically toggled off ... which keeps the same amount of AC power running the loco ... so the loco goes the same speed, regardless of whether there's power going to the whistle or not.

Clever engineers, circa 1930's, from Lionel!

Oh, by the way ... FABULOUS family video with the train, from all those years ago, Chris!

And ... Where in Rhode Island are you?!?

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Chris65, After analyzing the video, especially the color segment, it appears you have Outfit 367E. Dated about 1934. The Outfit consisted of the 385E; 384T; 1766; 1767; 1768 passenger cars, with 8 curve track & 4 straight track. The book value of VG/ no boxes is $2000. The transformer appears to be a type “W”, as described earlier. I’m only taking a guess that the item in front of the transformer is a whistle/ direction ontroller. This set/Outfit did Not have a whistle.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wholly restarted old thread batman! Cool vid. And i agree hard to tell the transformer type. What is the building next to the transformer? could it be be a whistle shead?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

sjm9911 nailed the building next to the transformer. It happens to be the 48W (whistling station), from the right time period. The Set is the Outfit 367E, from 1934, with a type “W” transformer issued 1933. Because this outfit lacked a whistle, it required the external 48W whistle station.

The type W transformer was 6-22 volts in 1 volt increments.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

This is such great info. My Dad was born in may '33. I am trying to resurrect this set and get it running as he had it, but also maybe add a few goodies (is this how it starts?) such as I saw a really cool #91 circuit breaker with light on top, and I wouldnt mind a signal light. I wish there was a way to add smoke without changing the loco but maybe thats asking too much... unless it could be mounted in free space inside and piped to the stack somehow. We dont have much room so when i told Wife about possibly hanging the layout from the ceiling with small cables and a small winch, she said her grandfather had his train board on the wall on hinges. But first things first, have to get this loco put back together and i cant remember where a couple of the wires are hooked up.

As to the Type W, I looked at the back label on one on ebay and it also only has 7 contacts (but says 5 volt steps), so, if I wanted 22 volts then the lowest it could do is 17 volts, apparently you only get a 5 volt spread depending on which posts. Do I have this right? If so I dont get the point, the train wont ever have low and full speed with only a 5 volt spread...

Also, with the whistle shed, how many volts and is that AC or DC?

I also got a chuckle about resurrecting an old thread, I started this in 2015 when my father passed away and somehow life got in the way and now just getting back to it. I probably forgot all about this thread and found it again in a search! :laugh:



teledoc said:


> The type W transformer was 6-22 volts in 1 volt increments.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you want to get close to what your father had, I would totally scratch the “Smoke” idea. The 385E was Prewar, and NONE of the Prewar locos had smoke units. Smoke units started in 1946, and not before. I didn’t find the type “W” transformer on eBay, and i would not trust an 85 year old transformer. I would recommend using the type “Z” transformer, which is rated at 250 watts AC, and 4 throttles. The voltage runs from 6V-24V A/C. The common is the “U” posts, and each controls of A,B,C,D are independent from each other.

The Outfit 367E was issued only in 1934, for 1 year, at a cost of $35.00, compared to the whistle version with the 385W tender at $40.00. Your fathers set had the 48W Whistle Station, to get the whistle, which is AC voltage, tapped off the transformer, at roughly 12 volts. The internal whistle had NO relay, but was activated by a switch, on one end of the housing. You pressed own on the switch for the whistle. If you go with the “Z” transformer, (I recommend it), you can use A-U to run the train, B-U to power the 48W. The choice is yours, but I would buy the “Z” transformer, and go from there.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

OK. Thanks for that great info Interesting his trains were sold in 1934 when he was just 1 year old I am thinking his Dad got it several years later perhaps as a leftover or something, but we cant know that now...

I looked at the Z (which looks like same as a V but more watts?) and it has four rheostats that go from 0-25VAC. How would I jog the e-unit with that, using one of the knobs connected to the track or need a button?

Why did they have 4 anyway, accessories etc?

I did buy a #66 Whistle controller (I am sure for on train whistle powered by track) and it has three buttons (and four posts 2 to track and two to xfmr):

1) press this for whistle while train is moving
2) press this to start, stop, or reverse train 
3) to blow whistle when train is stopped press this and No1 at the same time

HOW the heck could that work? Does the main transformer connect to the track as well as this?

thanks for the info, who would have thought a 'simple' toy train could be so complicated


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_z_transformer.htm a little info on the transformer. I might have one kicking around I'll go look later.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And the controller . https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_167_acc.htm


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The whistle station , just needs a simple switch and would be run off the transformer. If the whistle is on the train itself it would use the whistle button on the whistle controller. The controller can be used for controll of the e unit, as can shuting down the power with the dials. Lol , its complicated, a lot more so then they make it out to be. A cool thing to have is the original operating guide, they explane a lot of what you can do with the simple electronics.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I would go with the Z with the higher wattage. The 385E has an E unit installed, but the transformer doesn't have any Direction or Whistle controls. The transformer has 4 separate outputs, of A-U; B-U, C-U, D-U, which each can be used in different scenarios. You can use A-U, to power the train, B-U to power the 48W Whistle Station, C-U, to power lights, or other things needing power, and with each control separate, you can set the voltages at different levels. Another scenario, would be running 2, 3, or 4 different trains, on their own tracks.

With the Z transformer lacking any direction control, that is where the #66 control unit comes into play. You would only be using the center button to make and break the voltage, going to the train. The E unit cycles Fwd-Neutral-Rev-Neutral-Fwd, when you interrupt the voltage being supplied.

You will need to get a few track Lock-ons, for Standard Gauge track, to make all your connections. An example would be using A-U from xfrmr to lock-on connected to track, B-U wired to the 48W (this is totally independent of the track), C-U from xfrmer to #66 controller, and output of #66 controller to another Lock-on at the track. Depending on how large for the layout, try to place the Lock-ons midway from the first one. Dirty tracks, or loose track pins, cause voltage drops, and the train may slow down in those spots. The larger the layout, the more connection you would add, to prevent those voltage drops.

You also mention the loco needs some rewiring, so here is a diagram of the 385E:

View attachment 385E.pdf


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The one i have is a v. So cant help you there.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chris, if you need hands-on help getting the loco running, let me know. I'm in RI.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

thanks tj, thanks guys all the info here has been very helpful. loco runs, e unit works, just have to set up a whole track and do some testing. for now I have the 1033 transformer but will upgrade later and get some accessories.

the pullman cars are a little scratched dented and beat up and some rust on a few of the wheels which I will try and clean up. watched a few youtube videos about that and I guess the big thing is if you take them apart for repaint, tabs can break so have to be careful. might try to look for roofs that are perfect (or cars with perfect roof but damaged otherwise). 

by the way, doc mentioned which set this was sold as, Outfit 367E, mine has 385e, 384t, and 332, 337, 338 cars so if thats the combo he was talking about being 376E then its cool to know this.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Sometimes the cars can be brightened up a bit with pleadge or a wax. Ive used both on some marx stuff, test in a small spot under the train first. When reassembling the tabs some just twist them side to side a bit instead of bending them. For rusty wheels , try evaporrust( i remember it can eat away paint or gun blueing? ) any thing else just ask!


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

Thanks sjm, but the paint is missing in places. I do have matching paint and was planning to very carefully disassemble and restore. I'd like to pay someone with experience but not sure I could afford it so will try myself.

ALSO, just now I got the loco engine running on an oval track for the first time. It was in the loco shell which had been working on the bench and wouldnt budge so I took the engine out and ran it alone. Turns out the e-unit pawl sometimes doesnt drop back down. Not sure why maybe just needs a very slight bend outward? 

But it was nice to see what was probably the first run like that in maybe 75 years...

With 15 volts it can barely pull a tender one car (and thats without the piston rods etc installed yet). Also another thing I noticed about the metal, the rear truck upright was bent and as soon as I tried to bend it back, it cracked at the bend. One of the pullman hitches was bent up and I went to just slowly bend it back down, it also cracked. The metal on these is often brittle!

The rear truck will be ok until I replace it but the hitch cant be used so I'll have to repalce it unless as I said, can find some passenger cars with good roof and hitches and the trucks and sides are no good so I can cannibalize the roof and hitches or something.

The wheels turn freely and I had oiled the shafts etc, but for some reason it was lagging with one car on 15volts (1033 transformer max) . I just bit the bullet and bought a clean Type V transformer on ebay. Should be here in a week. Meanwhile I can try and fix these other issues.

Lot to do with getting this train set right.

I took a video...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok your getting there, now for the voltsge drop. Add a lock on to the oposit side of the loop. Additionally ot helps to bend the track pims out a bit so they make good contact with the track. I also add some rust preventer, ellectrical condutiing jel. 

For painting, take it apart and strip the old paint. ( i use esay off oven cleaner in a garbage bag, let it sit then wash off the old paint. )

You bought a V , i had a V , lol. Oh well. I never tested mine anyway!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also , it needs a good cleaning, armature needs to be shiny. Wheels and tracks cleaned with scotch brite pad and alcohol. Oil up the moving parts, axels, etc. Use some contact cleaner on the e unit, that might help.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And take pictures of stuff , we can help fix ot or point you in the right direction.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

OK thanks on all that. Should have asked about the transformer! 

As to the track it is all brand new track from USA Track. I have a box of old track that is oxidized and almost black. I did not want to try and clean that up, plus I was told that Scotch brite can take off the tin plating and make it rust faster next time, so I just went with new track. I just realized that slowing in turns may mean that the main wheels are too far apart and slightly binding on the curves. Just a theory but I will check that. I did replace one loco main wheel and should look if its pressed on enough...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yes it will slow in the turns. You can add half track peices to make it less turny.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Chris, After reading your compliment of passenger cars; 332, 337, & 338, you don’t have Set 367E. The loco, if it is Gunmetalgrey, would be the 385E, the tender is a 384T, BUT appears Black in the video. What color is the tender?? Black or Dark Gunmetal.?? With the 385E, and the 300 series passenger cars, this was a Set thrown together by the Dealer, and wouldn't have been a true Set.

If the loco & tender were BLACK, with your three passenger cars, would be Set “SPECIAL R.H. MACY #2”, and the loco would have been the 384E, not the 385E. The colors are the telltale sign, between the locos.


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

The loco and tender are gunmetal (dark) gray...

In fact what you said doesnt surprise me as my father was too young in 1934 (1 yr) to have been bought that train and he had no brothers...


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

Well in an effort to improve the performance I measured the wheel track and sure enough the rear axle was a bit wide so it was binding slightly on turns. Fixed. Then I disassembled the entire engine section, cleaned and degreased everything, emory cleaned the armature plate, and replaced the brushes (I had bought some 3 years ago). Also washed and cleaned up the shell, looks better. Wheels/gears turn nice and smooth and easy so the train runs as well as it can. I noticed that it needs about 10 volts (or more) to get moving, wont run much under 8 or 9, but goes pretty fast at 14.5 volts (max this transformer can give with the load). Havent hooked the cars up because its getting late, 6:30 am comes in a few hours. 

That wiring diagram was a huge help. 

Oh yeah that e-unit is still balky! Might be a matter of getting used to it but it does get stuck.








[/url]IMG_20181128_210539 by Chris P, on Flickr[/IMG]

IMG_20181128_221902 by Chris P, on Flickr

IMG_20181128_234106 by Chris P, on Flickr


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## Chris65 (Nov 25, 2018)

After clean/lube:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Put a few drops of Goo Gone in the e-unit plunger/pawl, and work things up/down. That will help degrease / lubricate a bit.

TJ


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