# Noise Reduction



## I am Zim (Nov 21, 2020)

What does everyone one use for noise reduction on your layouts? I have all Lionel FasTrack, my layout will be on an 8'x8' plywood base roughly 2' off the ground.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Rubber or cork or pink insulation board underlay.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

My layout is also FasTrack. My benchwork is 1x4 pine, tables are 3 each 4ft x10ft to make a U shape in a room 10 wide by 14 deep that joins a hallway on the U open end. My base plywood is only 5mm but then I added 1/2 inch Homasote, and then a nice dark green felt on top. As long as I run at scale speeds with large consists of cars, no issue at all with noise (45-55 scale MPH), however, if you start topping 65+ scale MPH, with a lot of cars, then the sound of the wheels on the rails does increase. But to give you more scope- I'm talking about running 25+ or more freight cars. If I run say a passenger set of typically 5-7 cars (what most passenger sets come with 4-5 cars, + 2 extra add-on cars) even speeds of 65 MPH or more is very reasonable and still can clearly hear the engine sounds VS track sounds of the wheels and rails.
I broke most of the rules you'll hear people say are needed to make quiet tables:
#1 I didn't use thick heavy base plywood. In fact, I used such thin plywood, a lot of people said it would not work, would sag and so forth. The trick is the spacing of the benchwork is no more than 12 inches, and the plywood was screwed to the benchwork every couple of inches, and then the Homasote was also screwed in between the base layer screws into the benchwork with longer screws.
#2 I screwed the track down with #4 screws through the felt, through the Homasote, and into the plywood. That's supposed to be a big no go (screwing track down to the plywood layer VS glue or other floating methods) but I found the tension and the felt deadens the plastic roadbed.

As with any advice on the internet, YMMV. It worked well for me, I didn't want tubular, I didn't want to add cork or foam, FasTrack switches work great for me once you do the soldering tabs mod internally, and sort out or repair any defects before permanent install. The things I love about it is how smooth it runs, how reliable my switches are, the fact that magnetraction works on older stuff, the flat topped rail gives good grip on traction tires when needed.
Stage 1- carpet layout to test basic original track plan








Stage 2 benchwork + Homasote








Then came felt, mono-rail, this "stage" didn't last long.









So then we needed 072 curve for bigger engines, and so much of the entire track plan and monorail was ripped out and rebuilt again. Sadly, cannot find a good wide view recently of the layout on this computer. the best I have is showing the mess and you can see my Lionel drop in bridge that spans the mouth of the U. Pretty embarrassing how messy this last photo was. Yes, that's a standard gauge 400e chillin on he other table in the middle of what should be the switch yard.










Also should add, the skirting is simply 40 inch wide black curtains from Lowes, I just overlap the seams and they are hung horizontally. They are nice and heavy and this too cuts down on the sound.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

This is the fun of a layout, it will change. Part of me loved every bit of that experience. Carpet land layout was fun to test out the track plan, find interference problems, and decide kind of how to build the benchwork. Obviously, like any typical layout, after the benchwork and basic tables were built with Homasote, running was tested for noise and yes, Fastrack not screwed down, sitting on top of the table, no felt, no skirting, was a bit loud. that said, I kind of miss the early days of this, plasticville, the simplicity and just clean look of "stage 2". I cannot say enough what a difference adding felt made. I got the felt from Amazon, a seller was making 20foot long by 4 foot wide felt wedding runners in various colors to go down the isle. I ordered 2 so had 40 feet of felt in case I need to redo a table to expand and build a 4th 10 foot table. It had not occurred to me- duh, go down to Joe Ann fabric and buy a bolt of felt. 

The said, one con to felt. Pilling or when you drill a hole snagging and twisting up a big hunk on your drill.
Felt can pill or get fuzzy in a high wear traffic area. My intent was to at some point begin landscaping and covering the felt with grass, paint, and other details once the tack plan was finalized. Well, it's going on 3 years, track plan not yet finalized. Drilling holes, simply cut an X with a razor knife first, and then peal back the 4 corners of the hole, then drill, vacuum the Homasote dust and plywood shavings. The good thing, if you do it right, cutting that X first and not damaging the felt too badly, if you have to move something and then a hole is exposed, I find normally you can fluff the felt enough back the previous hole is not even really visible. Also,I used 3M headliner glue in some high traffic places and the edges to glue the felt to the Homasote. It can be pulled back and up later if required.

Again, if I had to do over, I generally like my basic table construction with thin plywood + Homasote. My tables are light enough if I ever have to break it down and move, sturdy enough even my fat body can stand on them and not cause any damage or worry, the felt really both is nicer than a base layer of paint IMO, and the sound dampening addition is just impressive to me. I might go Gargraves or other track on the next table t try it, but again, I like my table construction, it was easy, cheap, and effective. It's just 1x4, lots of drywall screws, lots of pilot hole drilling to prevent splitting, 2x2 legs. The costliest part was Homasote sheets, and that was the only place in town wanted $40 a sheet. However, given the insane pricing on building materials these days, wouldn't be surprised if that doubled.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Also, just as another data point, the local train club tables are made with 1/2 base plywood, also 1x4 benchwork, and 1 inch thick pink foam. The traditional tubular track is placed on cork roadbed glued to the foam. Some of the older sections of tables are foam roadbed.

So here is my gripe about that and why I did not use foam as a sound deadening base non top of plywood:
#1 so the club paints a typical brown ground cover paint on the foam. Between denting the foam easily, the soldering iron misplaced melts into it, but the real kicker- NOTHING sticks to foam. So that paint layer often gets pealed up, scenery like trees with bases glued on top of the foam always fall over, rip up the paint. But the one that really gets me. Most track requires #4 screws. Because of the shank of a #4 being small, there is a limit to how long most manufactures make production screws. You need really long screws to go through track, cork, 1 inch of foam, and then capture into plywood. A screw holding anything in foam is just a sad joke.

Basically, I hate foam. There might be better foam, people might have different methods or details, but in general, I just use it every day at the club and banned it from my home layout. I know the cost of Homasote or equivalent can be hard to find and not saying it's perfect, but I'm about as anti-foam as possible from actually being stuck with it at the club.


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## KBeyer (Jun 29, 2020)

It probably also helps that your layout is in a room with carpet on the floor and the table legs are on the carpet. Nice layout & pics.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I wonder if some damping under the platform would help. My former layout 18" by 4.25' with a 3' dogleg was built using 1/2" OSB with 2"x3" supports on 16" centers (like wall studs). If sound was a problem, I would have added the classic pink insulation underneath. Alas, I never got that far as I moved houses.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

I am Zim said:


> What does everyone one use for noise reduction on your layouts? I have all Lionel FasTrack, my payout will be on an 8'x8' plywood base roughly 2' off the ground.


I kinda' hate to say it, but a lot of modelers claim that the best way to reduce noise on your layout is to switch to another track system besides FasTrack. That large, molded-in plastic base provides the ultimate acoustic echo chamber for all but the shaggiest of carpets.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

If you are drilling holes in either carpet or felt one trick to prevent piling up on the drill bit is to put wrap a piece of scotch tape on the drill bit to avoid that problem.

My new layout has indoor outdoor carpet on top of homosote. I found a small drill bit that did not require the tape.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I switched to atlas because of the noise from fastrack. I miss their switches though.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There's no easy way to quiet Fastrack. I used to run Fastrack, and there's no getting around it, with the built-in echo chamber, it's noisy!  I currently have Gargraves track and Ross switches. The main level is 1/2" Baltic Birch with 1/2" Homasote on top. I have 1/4" foam roadbed for the track. This is tons quieter than the Fastrack was!


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## GeeTee (Dec 23, 2020)

Plywood and to a lesser extent insulation foam acts like a subwoofer cone or drum head , any excitation / vibration is transmitted into the surrounding air extremely efficiently with little energy loss. To get rid of the sound you have to either (a) increase the energy loss (b) move the resonant frequency (c) both a and c .

The easiest is (a) , Rugs or carpet underneath will absorb some sound , you could also try acoustic panels . 
For (b) you can try to stiffen the plywood with more joist , that will lower the resonant frequency. 

The best thing would be to lay track on cork or eva foam , that way the sound doen't get trasmitted to plywood to begin with. Thats why a lot of people lay cork or eva foam even in hidden spaces ...to kill the noise.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

About the quietest Fastrak gets is when it is on carpet atop a pad. Might put that down on the benchtop. Down right it might be quiet nice. 

Like GRJ, once upon a time I had Fastrak. It was noisy and I explored, in depth, all available means to quiet the trainroom down. Ended up replacing it with Atlas.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Well, I am not changing from Fastrack. I have a lot invested in it. I will be buying more. Hindsight is 20/20 and I suppose I should have picked a different option. At the time, my choices at the LHS were Fastrack and Realtrax (MTH) I have never actually heard of any forum member using the MTH snap on version. At the time the LHS had an old timer that told me Fastrack was better than Realtrax so I went with Fastrack. 

I agree the molded in bed is not entirely realistic, and as has been pointed out the fastening lacks, but I have maybe $400 in Fastrack and have given a fair amount away and don't want to start over. 

How about I try a few things to quiet it down that have not been mentioned? It can't hurt. For example, although it might render a 10 inch section unsaleable in the future, why not "fill" the section that seems to cause echos with something? Like insulation? Insulation, the fiberglass kind, not the pink roadbed kind, would conform to the plastic and metal underneath and "may" reduce audible noise reverberation modestly. 

How about some "caulk", free flowing into crevices on the underside, it might again, reduce noise and vibration 10-25% making an overall reduction, along with the pink insulation roadbed. 

I don't know, I am just spitballing here since I am sticking with Fastrack and will be building a layout in the next 3-4 years with it. 

By the way, I thought you guys were talking about carpet on the "floor" of the room not under the track. THAT I will have!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I believe Lee explored filling the cavities with spray insulation, that seems pretty messy!  Cutting foam to the dimensions of the underside cavities and gluing them in would probably do something, though I'm not sure what. Truthfully, if you have only $400 in Fastrack, I'd give SERIOUS thought to changing horses! I had a lot more than that invested in Fastrack, and I dumped it and went with Ross/Gargraves. You can also sell your Fastrack and recoup some of the money as well. I just sold a bunch of Fastrack and I still have a small pile to unload.


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## I am Zim (Nov 21, 2020)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I just sold a bunch of Fastrack and I still have a small pile to unload.


I will gladly take it all off your hands. LoL


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## I am Zim (Nov 21, 2020)

Thank you all for your inputs. It was very helpful. My layout design is no where near in-depth of anyone on this forum. It is a kinda simple 8'x8' double loop of my own design.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Bryan Moran said:


> How about I try a few things to quiet it down that have not been mentioned? . . . why not "fill" the section . . .e insulation? . . . ."may" reduce audible noise reverberation modestly.
> 
> How about some "caulk",
> 
> By the way, I thought you guys were talking about carpet on the "floor" of the room not under the track. THAT I will have!


It has all been mentioned before, just not here, and extensively reserached. I tried varioys insulation. Filling the underside with expanding foam and letting it harden, then cutting it flush is the best insulation as far as noise reduction goes, but not nearly enough. Caulking helps (better than screwing down) but not a lot. I went to extraordinary lengths. 

Nothing really worked. Fastrak is noisy - that's pretty much it. 

A thick skirt of heavy fabric around the underside of the benchwork table cuts sound noticeably in many cases. Keeps it from coming form the underside as much. 

Putting carpet padding down and a thick pile carpeting _on the benchtop_ and your Fastrack on that will do more for noise reduction than anything else. 
But really, GRJ had a point. You will do what I did: spend more trying to quiet it down, in money and TIME, then eventually realize that solid rail track is so much quieter . . .


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Some more details in case you do wish to try with Fastrak. Glad to share what I learned.

As I said long ago I experimented with all manner of noise-reduction on mine. Used a db meter and really worked at it. Here is what works best:


Insulation: fill the underside with hardened expanding foam. Take each piece of track, turn it upside down, and lay down about a 1-inch high by two inch thick bead of something lke Great Stuff expanding foam insulation down the length of the roadbed. It will puff up into a foam that fills the entire roadbed and rises up like rising bread to several inches thick above and outside it. Let it harden at least 12 hours and use a breadknife to cut off all the excess from the roadbed, leaving the roadbed completely filled . . . This quiets the track a lot . . .
Hollow rail filler: this is surprisingly effective but damn difficult. The idea is to fill the hollow metal "rails" so they don't generate and resonate as much sound - if they quiet down there is nothing generated to resonate the roadbed and start it making noise!. I inserted 1.5 mm wide styene tubing down the inside each rail. Also tried injecting goo (anything) into each rail of each piece. Either way is effective if done well, but can require removing and replacing the tabs on the end (where each section plugs to the next, and is a paint to do, but sourprisingly effective.
Acoustic tile - glued lightly with dabs of caulking onto the benchtop with the Fastrack mounted onto it with caulking, no screws.
A very heavy skirt around the benchwork, hanging from it on all sides of the table. Heavy thick cloth works, but what ultimately worked best was to buy carpet runner (30" or 36" wide industrial carpet, sold at Lowes or Home Depot, and hang that as a curtain from the toip the edge of the benchwork (table) all along the edge.This cut sound coming from the Fastrack down hrough the benchwork and out from underneath the layout a lot.
This was the best I could do with Fastrak.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

What can make matters worse is screwing it down to the plywood even if you put homosote over top of the plywood the screws will transmit the sound. 

Another thing is, if you are able to put carpet down on the floor if it is not already carpeted. You can usually get a nice size remnant along with padding fairly cheap. 

If you are not able to do that try getting those products from Home Depot or Lowes that are used to move furniture. Look for the type that have a cushion to and plastic bottom. That might help from transmitting the sound through the legs of your benchwork.

Lee’s suggestion of a heavy skirt is another good idea.


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## GeeTee (Dec 23, 2020)

Jetguy said:


> Also, just as another data point, the local train club tables are made with 1/2 base plywood, also 1x4 benchwork, and 1 inch thick pink foam. The traditional tubular track is placed on cork roadbed glued to the foam. Some of the older sections of tables are foam roadbed.
> 
> So here is my gripe about that and why I did not use foam as a sound deadening base non top of plywood:
> #1 so the club paints a typical brown ground cover paint on the foam. Between denting the foam easily, the soldering iron misplaced melts into it, but the real kicker- NOTHING sticks to foam. So that paint layer often gets pealed up, scenery like trees with bases glued on top of the foam always fall over, rip up the paint. But the one that really gets me. Most track requires #4 screws. Because of the shank of a #4 being small, there is a limit to how long most manufactures make production screws. You need really long screws to go through track, cork, 1 inch of foam, and then capture into plywood. A screw holding anything in foam is just a sad joke.
> ...



Your talking about using polystyrene or Isocyanurate foam , The blue or pink stuff you get at Home Depot or Lowes , niether of which is a good sound deadner . Homasote isn't any better both have little flex and will still transmit sound fairly well... not as good as plywood though. 

I'm not surprised your having trouble with paint not sticking to the foam , Water based acrylics don't bond well if at all to smooth polystyrene. You have to roughup the surface first and then paint it , or try using an oil base . 

To get good sound deading you need to put the track on eva or cork .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I screwed the track into the Homasote but not into the plywood below. It's very quiet running on that combination.


GeeTee said:


> Homasote isn't any better both have little flex and will still transmit sound fairly well... not as good as plywood though.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, Homasote works very well for me.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I have no idea what Homosote is. Know the name. I would think 'cork' would work/ Kind of a rubbery intact surface. 

Back to Fastrack and it's "engineering". Lionel's idea was to make an easy to use track to replace their original track, in which they must have received complaints about it. Making it out of a plastic molded base and snap together made sense. Mostly we agree Fastrack is not "authentic" looking but is a compromise. 

The placement of the rails onto the plastic creates additional audible noise which Lionel has never addressed. Also, as Pete, John, Mike and others have pointed out the crimped connections are not a great idea. But, doing the extra work would likely double or triple of the cost of a 10 " section. 

I can't remember what 10" straights are at the LHS but probably $5.49 or so, already expensive, no easy solution. Modify Fastrack with soldered connections and additional insulation or bail. If Fastrack has become unpopular, I don't see it. 

I always lose out on ebay auctions and there seems to be plenty of it on ebay and people bid the crap out of it. I thought I had enough for my old layout of 17 x 7 and sold some and gave some back to the LHS. I guess there is a lesson there. 

I had also ran it through my mind to make one nice loop in Fastrack with what I have now and do the 2 new loops in Gargraves.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Gargraves O Scale Flex Track Sections 37” to 20” – Used | eBay 















With Fastrack I have a few terminal sections and then use those as a template for ones I make. How do you electrify Gargraves? It looks like track only. Also, with Fastrack you have pre-drilled tapered screw holes (which sometimes fail but still provide a path to attach to the table), what do you have with Gargraves to fasten it to the table? 

What does the Gargraves term "Phantom" mean and "Flextrack.?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I soldered to the rails directly, the most reliable method I've ever found for connecting to track.

Phantom: That's Gargraves term for the blackened center rail, it's the "phantom" rail.

FlexTrack: That's track that you can bend and make any curve you desire. I used a couple of cases of it building my layout.

You can just drill a hole in a tie to secure the track, that's the way we do it.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

The Homosote 440 Sound barrier is sold at lumber yards like Lowes or Home Depot is basically compressed cellulose held together with a binder.

However Homosote has several other different types that are not usually sold at those outlets. There is a type with a top layer of cork, fabric and a type of burlap. There are also type for a number of applications.

if you go to theIr website they have a lot of information on their products.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Another aspect of Fastrack that I believe is relevant is that it must be made of parts that are "rattling" against each other. This might seem like "Captain Obvious" but where else can the sound be generated? The metal is vibrating against the plastic. 

So, when I get some unpacked I will check for looseness and I will hit the joints with silicone caulk or something that will seal and not allow vibration or movement. 

I think with Fastrack, each step taken reduces the noise a percentage. I think I will have at least 2 tracks in Fastrack because of Lionel bridges which take Fastrack "seamlessly". I might still try a Gargraves track.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

There two types of sound transmission, airborne and impact. Airborne is noise that travels through the air and impact is the type caused by walking on a hard serface.

Airborne noise is caused by vibrations which convert them into sounds.

It’s quite possible that an engine going over Fastrack is creating a vibration which is amplified by the design of the track itself. One way to reduce the sound transmission is to use some type of high density material underneath the track. This could be cost prohibitive.

One other option would be to use QuietRock instead of homosote. QuietRock is a drywall product that is in two layers. Standard half inch drywall is cut through the middle creating two quarter inch thick 4x8 layers. Then a speciality type of elastomeric material is used to glue they layers back together. This product converts sound energy into electrical energy and disperses the sound.

The basic cost for a 4x8 sheet of QuietRock was around $50 per sheet. I’m not sure how effective it would be.

Lastly, I don’t think based on a number of articles I’ve read that Lionel ever expected Fastrack would be used so extensively in large scale layouts.


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## I am Zim (Nov 21, 2020)

Since everyone keeps saying Cork or Foam what about this product? Eco Cork Foam 75 sq. ft. 3 ft. x 25 ft. x 3.2 mm Waterproof Premium Plus 10-in-1 Underlayment - Vinyl Plank, Laminate, Engineered Wood-220000503 - The Home Depot

I am not as worried about the price as much as getting rid of some of the echo. I do get it that the FasTrack is an echo chamber in itself, I just like the ease and look of it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Without filling the echo chamber on the bottom of the Fastrack, I don't see this underlayment as doing as much as you're expecting.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Without filling the echo chamber on the bottom of the Fastrack, I don't see this underlayment as doing as much as you're expecting.


I agree on the underlayment. There's no data points on it's sound deadening qualities. On the other hand, Lee's filling the cavity with expanding foam may not have been the best approach.

In the DIY speaker building sphere, audiophiles use the pink foam insulation sheets at HD to build "Flat Panel" speakers. An exciter is attached to the panel and generates sound vibrations. The panel picks up the vibrations and acts as the speaker's cone. The panels are very rigid and propagate sound quite nicely. It's the go-to material for flat panel speaker building. For traditional speakers, the enclosures are filled with blown glass insulation. The blown glass is a resistance to the flow of air and that impedes sound travel. 

Perhaps self stick soft foam may be better at dampening the FastTrack's resonance, lowering it's frequency. The strips for sealing windows or the soft foan copper pipe insulators. Only experimentation would tell ...


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Millstonemike said:


> . . . There's no data points on it's sound deadening qualities. On the other hand, Lee's filling the cavity with expanding foam may not have been the best approach.
> 
> Perhaps self stick soft foam may be better at dampening the FastTrack's resonance, lowering it's frequency. The strips for sealing windows or the soft foan copper pipe insulators. Only experimentation would tell ...


Actually there were data points. I posted them on OGR way back when and they are no doubt still there, although I think the quantitatve data won't be any additional help beyond what has already been discussed here. I used a Db meter and spectral analysis of noise (wha lower noise level: kill the sound at the source seemed to work best. The soft foam window sealing strips did little by the way. Never using screws, and attaching theFastrak, cavity and rails filled, by putting thick beads of soft caulking down under the whole width and length of the track, so that when hardened it had 1/8 inch of caulking between the bottom of the track and the benchwork, completed the best I could find of everything I tested. That and the thick carpet skirts and acoustic tile on the roof and wall of the trainroom were the best I could find . . . 
But It was still noisy. I replaced the track with Atlas solid rail. I don't even have the acoustic tile on the ceiling and walls any more, and the trainroom is so much quieter. 

I really think you have all the data and information you can get, at least from me. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## BillTrzaskus (Dec 10, 2019)

If you can, try cutting away as much of the plywood as possible. A solid table top will resonate noise like a drum. Removing some of the table top will also reduce the noise.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I recall taking some casual db meter measurements when I had all fastrack and I managed to wedge in section of atlas ... And it was pretty dramatic... Maybe 10 db or more. I would say gargraves or Ross should perform similarly to the atlas. I really don't think you can address the plastic base track noise issue with these other various ideas in comparison.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Severn said:


> I recall taking some casual db meter measurements when I had all fastrack and I managed to wedge in section of atlas ... And it was pretty dramatic... Maybe 10 db or more. I would say gargraves or Ross should perform similarly to the atlas. I really don't think you can address the plastic base track noise issue with these other various ideas in comparison.


That is basically what it comes down to. Years ago I did everything I could to quiet the Fastrak I had on my layout, and many things each worked a bit or a tiny bit, but it was disappointing how very measureable reductions in db levels (that the engineer in me knew were meaningful and rather good results) didn't translate to satisfactory reduction of noise. My trainroom was very noisy when I started my "noise mitigation" and still far too noisy when I had used everything I could think of. . . . then about a year later I had to replace all my track for another reason (never clean Fastrak with Simple Green - it slowly eats the stainless coating) and put in Atlas. It was truly like night and day, and the trainroom is wonderful!!!!
Two points that your comment made em think about, that i have not thought about before.
1) Looking back, everyone focuses on the cavity underneath the Fastrak as the thing to "fix." I saw plenty of proof that attention there (filling the cavity with foam, etc.) did make the biggest difference (both measureable and subjectively) of anything I tried. But I think the problem starts with the hollow tinplate rails, which create a type of hiss (higher frequency sound) that is what I think feeds the resonance of the plastic roadbed cavity. Traditional tinplate track also makes that type of noise but there is nothing underneath it to resonate and amplify the sound, so its usually not a problem. "Filling" the hollow tinplate rails on Fastrak by sticking long thin plastic rods down inside them or injecting goo into them was a PIA but worked - but it was just too difficult to do on all my track and i think at best the "filling" I did was only partial and thus only partly successful at quieting down that noise. 
2) Filling the underside of the Fastrak cavity completely with expanding/hardening foam worked best, as I've said, but I have wondered for years if something else would have done better than foam. The only other thing I tried was balsa wood blocks (I cut balsa blocks to shape to just fit and fill all the cavity as much as possible, glued them in with caulking, then cut the balsa flush). I only tested about four feet of straight track but it was about as effective as the expanding foam but more work to install, particularly if I had tried on curves. _If anyone really wants to experiment quantitatively further, it would be interesting to see what would happen if it was filled with: a) epoxy resin, b) wax, c) clay, and anything else they can think of (Jello? :-O )_


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Lee Willis said:


> .... _If anyone really wants to experiment quantitatively further, it would be interesting to see what would happen if it was filled with: a) epoxy resin, b) wax, c) clay, and anything else they can think of (Jello? :-O )_


Yes. Silly Putty came to mind. Perhaps window & bath caulking - the kind that remains flexible. Easy to apply is quantity.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Seems like a lot of trouble to me. Just get rid of it and get another type of track.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

That is one reason I thought about using silicon caulk to secure the track better to the plastic. Movement of the rail against the plastic base seems to be a source of noise. Simply filling the cavity does not address the root cause, so to speak. 

Part of my issue is that I have never run any other track so for me what I heard was "normal". They do run something else at the LHS but they run trains at a snail's pace so I never thought about it. 

I won't replace my Fastrack but I won't buy more. I am going to run 3 lines. I have 3 double track MTH bridges and the Fastrack fits like a glove on them. Looks good too. 

I will do all I can to reduce noise. Once those lines are complete I will likely use Gargraves or Atlas. 

GRJ and Lee, and anyone else - why did you pick Fastrack in the 1st place ? I'm just curious. Gargraves and Atlas have been around a long time and I like how they look. 

You guys are experienced electricians. I picked Fastrack because Lionels description of how easy it was to "get going" and it snapped together. I could touch it at the LHS and snap them together and think "yeah I can do that". MTHs Realtrax is the same. So both of the major companies thought there was a market need or approach. I picked Fastrack over Realtrax because of the now deceased old timer at the store said he thought Fastrack was more reliable than Realtrax.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> That is one reason I thought about using silicon caulk to secure the track better to the plastic. Movement of the rail against the plastic base seems to be a source of noise. Simply filling the cavity does not address the root cause, so to speak.


Truthfully, I think very little of the sound, of any, is the rail moving against the plastic base. I used Fastrack for years, and tinkered with sound suppression, though not as much as Lee, and I never saw any evidence that the rail moved against the base.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree nothing moves. I think "moving" is too "big" a word for what happens - I would explain what happens as: the rail _vibrates _with sound which it transmits to the plastic roadbed which resonates and amplifies the vib ration/noise and passes it on.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Lee Willis said:


> I agree nothing moves. I think "moving" is too "big" a word for what happens - I would explain what happens as: the rail _vibrates _with sound which it transmits to the plastic roadbed which resonates and amplifies the vib ration/noise and passes it on.


Yes, I would call this semantics. On the other hand you have an assembled product. All of my Fastrack is packed but you have a hollow rail "attached" to a plastic "piece" in this case simulated roadbed. That attachment "appears" solid but as with the power transmission issue, most good modelers solder the connection for better electrical connection and performance, so there must be - or should be - an opportunity for the rail to "vibrate" or resonate or whatever word you want to use - and therefore induces audible sound, which we call noise because it is not the pleasant sound. 

It appears to me that "traditional" tracks, whether it be Lionel, Gargraves, or Atlas - don't have this issue because of no roadbed and better track quality. Those are just observations from the comments here.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Hence by applying a product which is a sealer, like a high quality caulk we get at Home Depot or Menards and identifying possible - although maybe imperceptible - areas of movement, or vibration or "cause", again apply whatever term you like, then a modeler knows that that piece of fastrack is at least as "solid" or put together as possible. It is a mass produced product, and has to bridge many issues, cost, effectiveness, simplicity, authenticity etc.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

In the beginning I loved fastrack. I bought quite a bit and lots of switches. Then inexplicably both the look and sound got to me. Eventually I experimented and used atlas solid rail with some gragraves and ross switches. I sold off the fast track. So I like these 3 brands as replacements and suspect they'd reduce the noise similarly. It's just I did the straights first and ended with mostly atlas there . But I forgot connecting these brands is a pain. The atlas uses joiners, the other two a kind of pin in rail connector. I made it work. But probably just pick one of them. Although a lot of folks seem to mix gargraves and ross as they are more compatible. I think this was already mentioned above.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee Willis said:


> I agree nothing moves. I think "moving" is too "big" a word for what happens - I would explain what happens as: the rail _vibrates _with sound which it transmits to the plastic roadbed which resonates and amplifies the vib ration/noise and passes it on.


Exactly Lee, I don't see any efforts to prevent the rails from "moving" on the base to be a useful exercise. The plastic roadbed is like a megaphone for the wheel sounds on the rails.


Bryan Moran said:


> Hence by applying a product which is a sealer, like a high quality caulk we get at Home Depot or Menards and identifying possible - although maybe imperceptible - areas of movement, or vibration or "cause", again apply whatever term you like, then a modeler knows that that piece of fastrack is at least as "solid" or put together as possible. It is a mass produced product, and has to bridge many issues, cost, effectiveness, simplicity, authenticity etc.


Well, you're obviously free to try this, but my prediction is you'll be hard pressed to see any difference in the sound levels by doing just this measure alone.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Bryan Moran said:


> Hence by applying a product which is a sealer, like a high quality caulk we get at Home Depot or Menards ...


That could fill the "echo chamber" as well as dampen the plastic housing - anything that advertises "remains flexible". IMO, that's worth a shot.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

It's surely the plastic road bed. I had the same issue with ho. Two brands, bachmann and kato. I did the comparison to micro engineering. Both about the same on the db meter. The micro engineering is far quieter. With a cork another small drop in db.

As for filling FasTrack. Cutting into resell-ability ... To me at least.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if you're bound and determined to stick with Fastrack, then resale value is a moot point, right?


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## briangcc (Oct 11, 2012)

If you're stuck on Fastrak then I'd look at this as a possibility...https://lizardskin.com/ They use it in high end car restorations to reduce sound vibrations/noises. No idea on how it will react with plastic so best to test on a scrap piece.

Out of all the O scale track I've owned, Fastrak is THE noisiest of them all.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Millstonemike said:


> That could fill the "echo chamber" as well as dampen the plastic housing - anything that advertises "remains flexible". IMO, that's worth a shot.


Good point. I wonder if there is a product with a long dispensor, very thin, that you could fill 10 inch straights hollow rail.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I am not bound and determined to use Fastrack because I still believe it is the best. I am going to use it for other reasons. I will have 3 tracks on the layout. At least the 3rd track will be an alternative, I won't keep making the mistake. Yes, I can sell it. The issue is the time and aggravation of selling on ebay, which I recently did for my U.P. stuff. Its a pain. I have the Fastrack now, and over 7 + years I have yet to run a completed layout. I have run trains on the last layout but no dioramas, buildings, etc. 

The Fastrack fit beautifully under the walkways on my MTH double bridges. Likely because Fastrack and RealTrax are copies. I will start buying the new alternative soon, and if I become comfortable with it, I will look into selling the Fastrack.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Look into Ross switches and Gargraves track, you will never go back to Fastrack.  Yes, I probably took a bath on selling all my Fastrack, but I'm over it.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I was happy to find a ready market for it. I think I got about half retail. I was not that picky, I posted it for what seemed the going rate. Once all the best items were gone I ate the postage or threw in some extra to move it. It all worked out fine. I sold it through the forums, not ebay.

Also before that I upgraded to the long straights and wider curves. So I had quite a bit of 10" track and o36 curves, manual switches etc I also would have sold off regardless.


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## kenf (Dec 7, 2019)

I am Zim said:


> What does everyone use for noise reduction on your layouts?


XPS foam.

While there is probably very little to gain, you could also use Woodland Scenic's rubber foam bed on top of the XPS foam. This is what I did. I'll try to do some decibel measurements for you.

Mine is XPS foam on plywood. Since my layout might move but once or twice in its life, the plywood is outrageous overkill.

If I ever do another layout, I will skip the plywood in favor of 60 or 100 psi foam and reinforce the exterior edges with a piece of wall corner plastic.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess my Baltic Birch with Homasote on top, then foam roadbed is really overkill because I ain't planning on ever moving this layout!


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## briangcc (Oct 11, 2012)

Gargraves track on cork roadbed on top of plywood benchwork. Eventually I'll be getting some Ross switches which will be thrown by Caboose Industries ground throws - I'm going low tech....only thing lower are choke cables under the benchwork but I don't like the look.

In HO I ran Atlas flex track on top of cork roadbed which sat on Homasote (on top of plywood).


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

My layout right now consists of MTH RealTrax on 1/2" plywood on 1 x 4 framing. I have no sound dampening or other sound deadening materials on it or in it. The RealTrax's roadbed isn't as big or expansive as Fastrack's, nor are the rails secured to it with bent-over tabs. Therefore, the vibrating echo-chamber effect is not near as big, either.

So yeah, it's still a little noisy, but if I run my trains at a slower, more realistic speed, the noise isn't too overly objectionable, at least not to me. Just have to face facts - O-gauge trains are big trains, and they're gonna' make some noise rolling down the rails, no matter what.

If I had any Lionel Fastrack on a plywood table, I would probably just cut carpet padding to fit under each track section and let it go at that. Something that's easy to remove, if ever the case need be. But not to worry - if you caulk, glue, or otherwise fill the Fastrack roadbed cavity with some difficult or non-removable material, I'll bet you could still find someone to take it off your hands for free at a train meet, should you ever decide to get rid of it.


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