# Lessons learned and feedback please...



## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

Hello!

I have learned a TON between here and another forum from you all. A TON. I have tried every layout I could come up with, I know SCARM better than my TV remote at this point. I have learned some key things to make sure my Empire is a success.

1 - My room is 138" x 110", it has 3 walls and an open area to the next room. I can't change that.
2 - A 60" by 138" table on wheels is simply too big for my space, even if it does articulate 70 degrees in either direction.
3 - With a giant slab it is super difficult for ME to get away from the round and round effect. Others have done it successfully, but it was just not coming together for me.
4 - We had to cave in (rather I was able to convince my wife with your help) and decide to attach our layout to the 3 walls to get close to what we have in mind
5 - I want to watch huge steamers chugging along through scenery and not be held back because my turns are too tight.
6 - N Scale is the ONLY way for me to go. I LOVE HO, but I just don't have the room to do what I want.
7 - This railroad planning probably took longer than some full scale short lines









Taking what we have learned from you all, here is what we have settled on. If you have suggestions to tweak it or make changes, now is the time - WE APPRECIATE YOUR CONTINUED SUPPORT (Bartyls and James Circa 1985).


This is all N Scale Kato Unitrack with Flex track mixed in where needed and everywhere in the yard and turntable area.
This is attached to the 3 walls as shown, it is room in a an underground, climate controlled wood floor finished basement.
I think this table shape is going to be very hard for me to build, but I have power tools and a truck so I will just take my time (I may avoid plywood all together and use 2" foam if I can make the frame like the drawing)
The minimum Radii is 12.4", most are larger
The main line has all #6 turnouts, the yard and industry use #4 turnouts
That is a Walthers 120' Turntable, and those 4 random tracks next to it are parking for the giant steamers
There are a few difficult reaches, but i will cove the corners with backdrop, the worst reach is 32", not so bad.


Once again, my wife and I TRULY APPRECAITE your help with our new hobby. She has put up with my for almost 40 years, so this is great!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, you seem to have independently rediscovered many things that experienced modelers would have told you up front (probably did, if you go back and look). Especially that going around the perimeter of a space is almost always superior to making an island in the middle.

I have a couple of comments (take them or leave them; it's your layout):
1) Building this layout from Unitrack is going to be unbelievably expensive. Since you're already mixing sections of flex track (Unitrack?), why not convert it to using foam or cork roadbed and Peco or Walthers turnouts with flex track? 
2) You appear to have some pretty deep corners. How will you reach back there to lay track / build scenery or fix a derailment?
3) Other than your yards and roundhouse tracks, you have only one sidinl. Why not add several more and some industries? Even if you don't want to actually switch them out like a real railroad, they will add a lot of visual interest to your layout, and help to fill out what are currently large dead spaces. I'm not advocating a bowl of spaghetti approach, but some strategically placed sidings will help. If the price of those extra turnouts is a deterrent, you can fake it by adding dummy rails.
4) Why not add some more visual interest by getting away from the dead strait tracks and perfectly symmetrical curves. Even if your trains are just passing through scenery, some gentle undulation in the tracks makes it more appealing.


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Well, you seem to have independently rediscovered many things that experienced modelers would have told you up front (probably did, if you go back and look). Especially that going around the perimeter of a space is almost always superior to making an island in the middle.
> 
> I have a couple of comments (take them or leave them; it's your layout):
> 1) Building this layout from Unitrack is going to be unbelievably expensive. Since you're already mixing sections of flex track (Unitrack?), why not convert it to using foam or cork roadbed and Peco or Walthers turnouts with flex track?
> ...


We pretty much got all of my information from you all. Thank you AGAIN! The cost is a lot, but I have probably half of the Kato track already for this. The other thing is I REALLY wanted to avoid under mount switch machines, although, it really is not that hard now that I do not have the mega slab so we will have to figure the cost difference.

There are some pretty deep corners, the the farthest reach for a track is about 32". if I need a lot of access to a spot I may have to break out the step stool, I have a 28" reach standing straight up at chest level. I think I will have to build the top out of plywood in case I accidently lean on it. it is not ideal I know, but neither is my space.

You are also right on the sidelines, I can easily add a few more - THANKS!

You are also right on the really long straights, I think I can do some fun scenery that causes some gentle curves - GREAT idea!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Well, you seem to have independently rediscovered many things that experienced modelers would have told you up front (probably did, if you go back and look). Especially that going around the perimeter of a space is almost always superior to making an island in the middle.

I have a couple of comments (take them or leave them; it's your layout):
1) Building this layout from Unitrack is going to be unbelievably expensive. Since you're already mixing sections of flex track (Unitrack?), why not convert it to using foam or cork roadbed and Peco or Walthers turnouts with flex track?
2) You appear to have some pretty deep corners. How will you reach back there to lay track / build scenery or fix a derailment?
3) Other than your yards and roundhouse tracks, you have only one sidinl. Why not add several more and some industries? Even if you don't want to actually switch them out like a real railroad, they will add a lot of visual interest to your layout, and help to fill out what are currently large dead spaces. I'm not advocating a bowl of spaghetti approach, but some strategically placed sidings will help. If the price of those extra turnouts is a deterrent, you can fake it by adding dummy rails.
4) Why not add some more visual interest by getting away from the dead strait tracks and perfectly symmetrical curves. Even if your trains are just passing through scenery, some gentle undulation in the tracks makes it more appealing.
[/QUOTE]




The squatch family;

First of all the basic track plan is good, though there are some improvements I'm recommending.

1) In the upper right corner, there is a very long reach. I would extend the curves at the lower right (the curves just above the 32" dimension) a bit further to bring the back tracks further out of that upper right corner, and closer to the front of your layout.

2) Although I can hardly believe I'm suggesting this, You might cut an open access hole in the upper right corner, to have emergency access to the other side of the back track. Yes, I just recommended a duck under! 
(I'm so ashamed! 😄) However, in the case of your layout (and unfortunately mine) It may actually be beneficial, or at least grudgingly necessary. (Note: A rolling stool as shown in the photo, converts a miserable duck under into an easier "roll under.")

3) On the left side, your yard is in a bad place, namely along the left wall of the room.
I recommend you flip the trackage on that left-hand section of your table, so that the yard is close to the aisle, rather than as far away as you can get it, like it is now.
Yards have the most complex, and therefore trouble-prone, trackage on a model railroad. They should be "up close and personal", meaning where you can look directly down on the turnouts, and directly at the side of a train's wheels, so you can see exactly where that derailment is starting. (wheel comes up to the top of the rail.)
Also, a yard ladder is where you want your most worry free turnouts. In this case # 6s not # 4s. Kato turnouts, (if that's what you end up using) are very good. Their # 6 turnouts in particular, are reputed to be especially reliable, and virtually derailment free. Also, with your desire for big steam, the gentler the turnouts the better, when you back one of those behemoths through a string of them.

4) You were picking Kato turnouts, at least partially, to avoid under-the-table switch machines.
Well you're right, the Kato machine is above the table, inside the roadbed part of the turnout. BUT, the only way to reach that switch machine is by removing the entire turnout, flipping it upside down, and removing the screwed-on bottom cover plate. So, that may, or may not, be considered easier than going under the layout, (your call) but you should allow for it by not attaching any Kato turnouts to the layout. Leave them removeable.

5) Since you are attaching the layout to the walls, why not go all the way around the room? * (Review sketch #4 below?)
Then your curves could be as big as you want, and the layout sections/modules could be narrower shelves providing excellent access to all of the layout.
What's the story on this cabinet in the lower right? Can it be taken out of the room? Is it higher than the layout?
It seems to be the only obstacle to an around-the-room-layout. The entry could be bridged by a hinged section. That might be possible even if the cabinet must stay in the layout room. Just a longer section across the entryway, with part of it hinged.

6) What's the point of all the extra "nooks & crannies" and all the excess corners in the fascia at the front of the layout?
They might be one reason why you feel the benchwork would be hard to build. The fascia, or front edge of the benchwork, should be shaped more or less along the same lines as you have your track drawn. That would simplify the carpentry a bit, slightly enlarge the aisle area and improve access to all the track. I'm not suggesting you eliminate any space outside the track outline. That serves as a safety "train catcher" and allows some scenery possibilities too.

7) Your track plan is still "roundy round" but a backdrop, or some hills, between the front & back tracks will conceal that fact. Such scenic dividers can make it more difficult to reach the back track though, so its best if they are removable, or some other arrangement is made for access to the back track. On my own layout the backdrops are painted on semi-flexible fiberglass sheets that can be bent slightly to remove them. A foam ridge could be lifted off when maintenance was needed on the rear track.

8) Finally, I agree with CTValley's comments & suggestions. I also apologize to CTValley for jumping onto his response. That was accidental.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Rearrange to get that big yard closet to front of layout. I'm thinking of uncoupling.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

Dennis461 said:


> Rearrange to get that big yard closet to front of layout. I'm thinking of uncoupling.


Also be sure you have long arms to reach those far back corners where you* just* know trains will derail (especially during open houses) (Murphy's laws)


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

rrman987 said:


> Also be sure you have long arms to reach those far back corners where you* just* know trains will derail (especially during open houses) (Murphy's laws)


Yes, great point. They call me Bigfoot for more than one reason.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

A couple of additional points suggested by other comments.

1) I don't thing the fact that your layout is essentially one big loop will be much of a problem, since when looking at one loop, the other is essentially behind you. That by itself helps the illusion of distance, without the addition of backdrops. This is especially true if you add industries or scenic elements, or both, to the centermof your turnback loops to disguise them somewhat.

2) I agree with traction fan on relocating the yard ladder closer to the aisle.

3) I also agree with his point in under table switch machines. I think you have a bugaboo about them for no reason. They are easier to maintain, and more versatile, than the integrated ones in the Kato turnouts. I get thst they're not as intuitive -- that's just a learning challenge to be overcome.


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## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

traction fan said:


> 7) Your track plan is still "roundy round" but a backdrop, or some hills, between the front & back tracks will conceal that fact. Such scenic dividers can make it more difficult to reach the back track though, so its best if they are removable, or some other arrangement is made for access to the back track.


I agree. I did this on my small layout and it really is a wonderful way to create an illusion of distance and avoid the "roundy round" effect.


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