# Outdoor HO



## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and looking for some advice.

Ever since my parents bought me an O gauge Lionel set for christmas one year when I was like 4, I've wanted to build a model train layout. 17 years later and the model train bug has bit me from time to time and I've dreamed and wished. Last time it hit me a couple years ago, I made an impulse buy on little used HO superchief set from a local hobby shop. I had all sorts of ideas, then I sat down with a track planning software and discovered just how non-compact HO really is and got discouraged and it got shelved. Fast forward to today and I'm living in a new house with some outdoor space and I'm temporarily out of work right now for a medical issue, and so what's been occupying my mind to distract me from my woes? You guessed it, trains. I've been "planning an N-scale layout for the fact of just how much you can really pack in a 4x8' but today out of boredom I pulled the superchief out and did some tinkering and got it running like a dream.

No here is where things get crazy. I have a ping pong table sitting outside that came with the house, and I don't play ping pong. I have a fairly large covered porch attached to a carport and well, you probably see where I'm going with this. Question is, am I crazy? I know I can't do much scenery wise cause of humidity reasons, but I feel like nickel silver track should be o.k. outside in the elements. Really as long as I don't leave the locomotives or the power packs outside, I can't see much going wrong since there will be a roof over the table. It would allow me to play with my HO stuff while I focus on getting better and going back to work and build my N-scale layout.

What do yall think? Can I get away with it? Is it a crazy idea or just pure genius?


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Sometimes, it's best to first confer with your parents.*

Well, since it's not your house, and your living with your parents, I think you should get their input on your project.Ping pong is a sport. You can share that with your friends.
HO stuff is has some fairly intricate pieces of art models of mans answer for transportation in the real world. Sometimes made out of paper and cardboard and
things of that nature. Where I think it would be wise to keep it out of the weather. 
Remember your parents live there also. So, Ask them first, before you get your heart set on anything. Regard's,tr1


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

I already got the OK from the folk to use the space and the ping pong table. I'm just wondering how well the track would survive outside.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Hi Matt and welcome. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't do the ping pong table idea. Plenty of people run outdoor HO. You'll have to use ns track of course and plastic buildings but I can't see any problems apart from the electrics which would need to come indoors after each session. You'd have to run track around the edge as I don't think you could get access to the centre. Give it a go!


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Cycleops said:


> Hi Matt and welcome. There's absolutely no reason you couldn't do the ping pong table idea. Plenty of people run outdoor HO. You'll have to use ns track of course and plastic buildings but I can't see any problems apart from the electrics which would need to come indoors after each session. You'd have to run track around the edge as I don't think you could get access to the centre. Give it a go!


If anyone follows anything I am doing you will discover that my HO layouts are both on our screened in 3 season room or porch on the back of the house, It's a year now and no issues, had a big rain storm once and the wind blew some water on the table, but I always end up a play session with the locos in the tunnel and all the cars on the back of the porch track closest to the wall.
MY wife gave me and old shower curtain to throw over the table if it looks like rain, just in case.
My table is 4 x 9. I have a figure 8 in the middle of a big oval with overpasses and tunnels.
I just received a 4 x 8 table from the railroad museum that was professionally build about 30 years ago, all brass and that one us against a screen wall and will get wet, so I keep it covered with a shower curtain,


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Use Nickle Silver rail, don't keep locos or any metal wheeled cars outside and cover it with a tarp after use. It will have its problems, but those steps will keep them at bay...


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Won't nickle-silver track rust? I think that's why the G scale outdoor guys use brass track.....no rust.....


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I wonder if you kept a cover, say, of vizqueen over the layout
when not in use; could it be an additional protection, or would it
capture moisture within it.

You will need to clean the rail tops before every use. Sectional
track may be a problem since it increases the number of joiners
where moisture can promote poor conductivity.

Don


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

NS rail will not rust, and, unlike brass, its corrosion is electrically conductive. G scale has the advantage of mass for electrical contact, and brass rail of that size is much cheaper to produce than NS...


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Good comments on the rail joiners and metal wheel cars. I didn't even stop to consider that. Luckily I don't believe I own any metal wheeled cars cause I mostly own el cheapo bachman stuff. So that's one issue out the window.

As far as rail joiners, I see two possibilities, either I could solder all the rail joiners, which I would prefer not to. Or I could use nickel silver joiners. Even still soldering is the only way I see to keep dirt particulates out which could cause a poor connection, or worse get statically charged and sucked in my locomotives.

I did happen to think last night that I do have a building on the property I could utilize, problem is that out of the 7 outlying structures on the property its the only one without power. It's also the only one not being used and will never be used because its location makes it a logistical nightmare to store anything in it. So I'd have to figure out how to get the table down there too. Further more, medically speaking, I'm not in good enough condition to really wanna walk down there that often right now. Hopefully that will change, but I have to wait and see what the doctors find.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Speaking of that building with no power, I had a crazy thought at one point about finding a 18v deep cycle battery like that of a golf cart. Wire it up with an inline fuse and then hook a potentiometer (or several wired in parralell) for a throttle and boom! Battery/power pack.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

The other thing I was thinking is the table itself might not be too level especially if it's old but you should be able to add some wood bracing to straighten it out.


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## Mister Bill (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I have sort of been there, done that, gave up.

It depends where you live with dust, humidity, annual rainfall, wind gusts, bird poop and squirrel visits, etc.

I would at least start out on a small scale and give it six weeks before taking a lot of expensive equipment outside.

A lot can happen just when you stop a while for dinner or run to the store.

I think DCC equipment is more sensitive than DC, but I don't know for sure. 

Bill


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## mikek (Dec 29, 2013)

I have track-cleaning locos and MOW cars, I would use one or the other permanently on an outside situation. That way the track is constantly cleaned, any short use freshens the track. Lots of power track connectors will increase reliability, they just have to be wired in at the beginning, and I would have the power wire following the track all around under the track with loops of extra wire here and there just in case another connection needs to be made or some accessory attached later. I have lots of re-railers with power connections built in, placing them around the track adds convenience and reliability. I would have a re-railer after turnouts. Better safe than sorry, adding such after the track is laid may be difficult.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

/6 matt said:


> Good comments on the rail joiners and metal wheel cars. I didn't even stop to consider that. Luckily I don't believe I own any metal wheeled cars cause I mostly own el cheapo bachman stuff. So that's one issue out the window.
> 
> As far as rail joiners, I see two possibilities, either I could solder all the rail joiners, which I would prefer not to. Or I could use nickel silver joiners. Even still soldering is the only way I see to keep dirt particulates out which could cause a poor connection, or worse get statically charged and sucked in my locomotives.
> 
> I did happen to think last night that I do have a building on the property I could utilize, problem is that out of the 7 outlying structures on the property its the only one without power. It's also the only one not being used and will never be used because its location makes it a logistical nightmare to store anything in it. So I'd have to figure out how to get the table down there too. Further more, medically speaking, I'm not in good enough condition to really wanna walk down there that often right now. Hopefully that will change, but I have to wait and see what the doctors find.


The walking down part should be easy, it would be the walking back UP part that might be an issue


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

There is a British TV Show called "James May's Toy Stories". He did an episode where he tried to make the world's longest model train (in OO scale -- slightly larger than our HO). As he put it, "full size nature is not kind to OO scale trains". I recommend you try to find it and watch it (it is Episode 6: Hornby, not "The Great Train Race" although that's good, too). You will probably find it very inspirational. It was widely available on YouTube a few years ago.... not so much, now.

That said, why not take a crack at it. Just be prepared for a number of challenges from Mother Nature.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Carolina humidity?*

/6

Another concern is the range of humidity and temperature changes outdoors. Humidity will tend to warp wood. Is the ping pong table as stoutly braced as many train tables are? Are all sides covered by paint? I'd recommend both. Wide range temperature changes can cause expansion and contraction of rail. I personally do not recommend soldering every rail joint, even on an indoor layout. This is a controversial issue though, and you will likely get
responses saying that soldering every joint is fine. A better method, in my opinion, would be to solder a small piece of wire to either the side or the bottom of each rail(then run under the table) and then to the joining rail, but leave the joints free. If you leave a very small gap between the rails at each joint, the rails will be able to expand and contract without affecting the track gauge(distance between the rails at opposite ends of the ties.) This can cause derailments. I have personally witnessed a case where the rails ripped right up out of the ties due to expansion and soldered joints not allowing for it. 
I would definitely use nickle silver rail and joiners.

Good Luck;

Traction Fan


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The expansion and contraction of rail itself has been discussed many times, with the short answer being that nickel silver does not expand and contract enough within the temperature ranges normal to the continental US to make it an issue.

However, as traction fan points out, the expansion and contraction of your layout, or even the flexing of the ping pong table surface may turn out to be significant issues. You would need to evaluate that, and perhaps paint or seal exposed surfaces to minimize this, maybe adding additional support underneath the table.

My advice on track would be to work in lengths of approximately 6-8 feet. Solder your track together to make these lengths, and add a power feeder to each of those sections. That will give you the best possible solution for reliably power connections.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Rail expansion*

The incident I related, where the rails really did rip up out of the ties, happened in the continental U.S. and using nickle silver rail, in a 6'( two pieces of Shinohara flex track soldered to each other to help prevent track joint kinks in a 24" radius curve.)
The choice is with the individual modeler. I prefer not to solder my rail joiners, but as I said there is controversy and each person should decide for himself. On any layout I prefer to use a conservative approach and design in as much problem prevention as I can. On an outdoor layout, I would think this would be even more beneficial, since it will be exposed more to weather. 

Traction Fan


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Well yesterday I got the table setup outside and managed to assemble my oval of track before I got dizzy and had to go in and lie down. I didn't mess with it today for fear of venturing outside, will keep y'all updated next time I get at it.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Well I'm not using the ping pong table yet, I happened to stumble upon a 4x7 sheet of plywood that nobody plans on using anytime soon so I threw it on top of an old slightly broken coffee table frame and tadaa!

I went out yesterday and wiped the tracks down real good and got to it! I had a lot of fun with my old bachmann 0-6-0 usra switcher. Then I let the smoke out.

I got a short video of her running before she quit though.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Hopefully the video works


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## microbuss (Mar 13, 2015)

nopes


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You cannot post a video directly to the Forum. You must post it first to
Youtube or other 3rd party server, then post the link here on the forum.

Don


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

Not to be pedantic, it's nickel-silver rail, the Nickel Plate Road, a nickel coin. Not nickle.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Right you are! :thumbsup:


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qrN7IlhHvo&app=desktop

Maybe this one will work


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Now you're cooking. The Youtube video worked. But it shore is short.

Don


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Yeah well there was more but I cut it out cause it consisted of the smoke show followed by me dropping the camera phone to kill power to the train lol!


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

So Just an update, the mock table was taken down to bring a car into the carport for a brake job. I hated pulling it down but heck I got paid for it so...

In other news, I'm not sure if I'm gonna mess with the ping pong table, its really just too big and heavy to be moving around in my current health. On the other can I can always grab a hand to help me move a 4'x7' sheet of plywood and a coffee table so I think that is the route I'm going for now.

Also,the doctors have finally found out that whatever is wrong with me is neurological, I had an MRI done on my brain and I'm waiting for the results. We are all quietly thinking is may be MS. Either way, I'm not sure if the table will go back up or how much longer the outdoor layout will stay alive.

Stay tuned folks.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Not very good news. Hope for the best for you.

Magic


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Definitely not good news, especially at my age. I'm 21, I should be working overtime and feeling like superman. Not couped up at home for going on 3 months now and walking with a cane to keep balance and afraid to leave the house with out my wheelchair.

But alas, I still have my wonderful girflriend and my friends and family, a classic car and of course my trains. So life is good.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

/6 matt said:


> Definitely not good news, especially at my age. I'm 21, I should be working overtime and feeling like superman. Not couped up at home for going on 3 months now and walking with a cane to keep balance and afraid to leave the house with out my wheelchair.
> 
> But alas, I still have my wonderful girflriend and my friends and family, a classic car and of course my trains. So life is good.


That is very saddening, and you have my deepest sympathy. That said, "Alas" is an expression of sorrow, grief or pity. Hopefully you didn't mean that last sentence the way you typed it. I believe you are grateful for those things.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

No sir, just my way of keeping positive. I didn't realize I've been using alas the wrong way my whole life lol.

If there is one thing I've learned over the past few years, it that attitude is everything and the power of positive is a force to be reckoned with. It helps a lot that I have two cars I'm restoring and I have trains to keep my mind off of things.


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

yes attitude is very powerful i can sympothise with you i don't have the same problems as you do but im 24 yr old and have a born with vision problem and life gets me down sometimes but as you said we have good friends family and our hobbies so life is good hope they can figure it out soon buddy and take care zach flowe.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Here is an idea I've been working on in scarm. It utilizes the 4x7 sheet of plywood I already have and I can start off with my meager little oval that I already have and expand as time goes on if possible.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Looks like an interesting plan. Room for industries and switching as well.
Curved bridges over your river can be hard to do, I know I just built one.
A not all that great but workable.

Scram is great, you can have a lot of fun with it. 

You've got a great attitude my hat's off to you. :smilie_daumenpos: :smilie_daumenpos: 

Best of luck 
Magic

PS What kind of cars, lots of car guys here.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Positive attitude is always an incredible thing. A good friend of mine (in fact, my wife's matron of honor) has been living with MS for almost 20 years. She has good days and bad, but her attitude is always amazingly upbeat.

That aside, I like the layout plan. It should keep you busy for some time.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

little fat buddy said:


> yes attitude is very powerful i can sympothise with you i don't have the same problems as you do but im 24 yr old and have a born with vision problem and life gets me down sometimes but as you said we have good friends family and our hobbies so life is good hope they can figure it out soon buddy and take care zach flowe.


A word of advice, whenever you're feeling down, make sure for each negative thought you have, follow it up with at least one positive thought. It makes a world of difference for your mood and outlook on things. After awhile it even becomes second nature.



Magic said:


> Looks like an interesting plan. Room for industries and switching as well.
> Curved bridges over your river can be hard to do, I know I just built one.
> A not all that great but workable.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm not really sure about the water and bridge thing yet, it was just kind of a last minute bs idea. I was thinking one of those curved trestle kits would be awesome. Does my round house area look ok clearance wise? All tracks leading into the roundhouse are 18" long.

Over here in car land, my daily driver (I don't drive anymore) was a '78 F150 with a 300 and a 3 spd on the tree. My first project was my former daily driver, a 70' Dodge Dart Swinger with a 225 slant 6 (hence my screen name) with a super six 2-bbl conversion, 3 spd 904 with a shift kit and its also got a 7-1/4' peg leg rear end with 3.55 gears. My other project is my dad's '65 Ford Falcon, she's totally bone stock with a 170 and a 3 spd on the tree, 54K original miles and currently no floorboards.



CTValleyRR said:


> Positive attitude is always an incredible thing. A good friend of mine (in fact, my wife's matron of honor) has been living with MS for almost 20 years. She has good days and bad, but her attitude is always amazingly upbeat.
> 
> That aside, I like the layout plan. It should keep you busy for some time.


Out of curiosity, do you know how her symptoms started out? Also how old was she?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

She was 28. I don't know exactly how it started, but she had been mentioning to my wife for a couple of months that she was "weak and fatigued". The doctor had her on antidepressants, thinking it was post-partum depression. One weekend she and her husband were supposed to visit us; instead she was hospitalized with partial paralysis of the left side of her body. That lead to a diagnosis of MS. Not sure of the details of her treatment are, but she generally has 2-3 relapses a year, and is fairly normal outside of those couple of weeks, although if you knew her before, you can now see a slight, I don't know, "hitch" maybe, or hesitancy, when she uses the left side of her body.

And on to more positive things. Curved bridges and trestles aren't really that big a deal, as long as you keep one thing in mind: the only thing curved on them is the rails. The bridge or trestle itself is composed of a number of short, straight segments (stone or concrete bridges can be built curved, but not wood or steel, and the beams supporting a concrete structure are usually straight).


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