# Radio or Bluetooth control?



## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

Does anybody use radio or Bluetooth control for their trains? I've started looking into them and was wondering if anybody has any experience, good or bad.

Thank you for your time and thoughts.
Chaos


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

When you say "radio", do you mean "wifi", or -real- "radio" ...?


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm talking real radio as in direct communication like RC planes and cars and boats and whatever.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Chaostrain said:


> I'm talking real radio as in direct communication like RC planes and cars and boats and whatever.


That's a little old fashioned sounding - but the answer is yes.

I'm not positive but I think the first TMCC remotes were just CB radio frequency or thereabouts. Pretty basic.

Today - everything is Wi-fi or Bluetooth based. Still "Radio Controlled" but at much higher frequencies with more complex technology.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Well technically wifi is also a direct radio connection, and essentially bluetooth is the same as wifi except for some minor differences.

There is someone here who has a whole setup using bluetooth, he'll probably jump in soon to give you the details. If you use BT keep in mind that you want equipment which uses the BT4 protocol. Earlier bluetooth radios were limited to a range of about 30-40 feet, while the newer stuff has a range of up to 300ft, similar to wifi.

There is also a project called DCC++ESP32 which is based off the original DCC++ code but adds wifi capabilities to the base station. Some of us have been working on decoders for the loco side. I'm actually working on a schematic to build a full-featured decoder starting with an ESP32. The plan is to receive commands both via DCC on the rails and/or over wifi.

Previous to getting involved with DCC, I was writing a wifi system from scratch. I had the basics down, direction and speed control from a web interface, and it worked very reliably. Throttle changes were instant and within the short range inside my house there was never any loss of signal.

There is also the possibility of building something using the 433Mhz radios, which you can find all over ebay. I don't know of anyone who has actually done it yet, however if you live in a crowded neighborhood where lots of people are jamming up the wifi or BT channels with their home equipment, 433Mhz might be an option to allow you to run without interference while still using commercially-available FCC approved components.

All in all, it is pretty much still a hacker's market for radio controlled trains. There are almost no offerings of complete ready-to-go systems so if you want to go this route you will likely have to build something yourself.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Chaostrain said:


> I'm talking real radio as in direct communication like RC planes and cars and boats and whatever.


Lionel's Lionchief Plus system is radio - two-way apparently - and it is, frankly, the only system I would use other than sticking with the old conventional control system my Dad taught me to use in 1953.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You might want to have a look at products from Ring Engineering.

Also, the Nov 2017 issue of Model Railroad Hobbyist had an intro to radio controls. Back issues are available free to subscribers (and subscribing is also free). Visit them at Model-Railroad-Hobbyist.com


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Roving Sign said:


> That's a little old fashioned sounding - but the answer is yes.
> 
> I'm not positive but I think the first TMCC remotes were just CB radio frequency or thereabouts. Pretty basic.
> 
> Today - everything is Wi-fi or Bluetooth based. Still "Radio Controlled" but at much higher frequencies with more complex technology.


TMCC/Cab1 operates on 27MHz. Legacy/Cab1L operates on 2.4GHz. CB goes from 26.9650MHz to 27.4050MHz.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Chaostrain said:


> Does anybody use radio or Bluetooth control for their trains? I've started looking into them and was wondering if anybody has any experience, good or bad.
> 
> Thank you for your time and thoughts.
> Chaos


radio -- wifi, bluetooth, and ISM band are all being used for either direct control to the locomotive or to a receiver on a DCC command station.

wifi and bluetooth are commonly used with smartphones, i think via JMRI. i know that NCE wireless controller uses the ISM band. I pretty sure the TCS wireless throttle uses wifi and i'm told uses the LCC/OpenLCB traction protocol which has some NMRA backing.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

DennyM said:


> TMCC/Cab1 operates on 27MHz. Legacy/Cab1L operates on 2.4GHz. CB goes from 26.9650MHz to 27.4050MHz.


To me the distinction between radio and otherwise is the carrier, not the frequency. Legacy/TMCC and DCS both use the rails as the carrier. Radio uses electromagnetic waves, regardless of the frequency. Jon Z at Lionel told me one time what frequency range LC+ uses but I forgot. Works well - that is enough for me. I wish L would sell retrofit kits - it would be in all my locos.


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you for the information. I squirreled away the information and links for study.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

I have a Digitrax Zephyr and recently added their LNWI wireless module. I can now control my locomotives from my iPhone with a free downloaded app called WiThrottleLite. I love being able to walk around untethered.


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## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

I have played with the Bluetooth locos put out by Bachmann, they are using a scaled-back version of the blue-tooth systemmanufactured by Blue Rail. It’s a pretty neat concept and seems to work well. The biggest pros about it are that virtually everybody already has a controller in their pocket...a cell-phone, it is super easy to speed-match locos, super easy to consist locos and it can be powered by batteries or a simple, second-hand DC controller. 

The cons...generic sounds,the sounds come out of your cellphone not the loco and for those who want it, no tactile feel from control knobs,buttons..so you have to look down at the controller screen to make speed changes etc.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Genetk44 said:


> The cons...generic sounds,the sounds come out of your cellphone not the loco and for those who want it, no tactile feel from control knobs,buttons..so you have to look down at the controller screen to make speed changes etc.


You forgot "having to take your phone into the train room". The real world is not allowed to bother me in the train room.


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## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> You forgot "having to take your phone into the train room". The real world is not allowed to bother me in the train room.


Nobody is forcing you to use it as a phone in the train room


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> You forgot "having to take your phone into the train room". The real world is not allowed to bother me in the train room.


This always comes up.

Get a cheap dedicated phone for running trains.

You do not want to use your everyday phone for a variety of reasons.

Android phones are cheap or - free, sometimes.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Roving Sign said:


> This always comes up.
> 
> Get a cheap dedicated phone for running trains.
> 
> ...


But then everyone doesn't already have one in their pocket...

Maybe the reason it always comes up is that it's a valid concern for many of us. No one is saying it's an insurmountable obstacle, just something that needs to be considered.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Genetk44 said:


> Nobody is forcing you to use it as a phone in the train room


That's why it's a con. Because in order for it not to be my phone, I have to disable notifications, put it on airplane mode, etc. etc., which then raises the possibility that I will forget to re-enable these features when I leave the train room.

I never said that it can't be done. Just about every problem I've ever encountered has a work-around. The question is whether it's worth it.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

CTValley wrote:
_"You forgot "having to take your phone into the train room". The real world is not allowed to bother me in the train room."_

I don't use a smartphone to run my z21 system (actually I don't _OWN_ a smartphone).

Instead, I use an _old_ Samsung "Galaxy Player 4". It's so old the Android OS on it is 'way out-of-date and can't be upgraded. However, the Roco app still was able to be downloaded and runs on my [outdated] version of Android just fine.

I'm thinking of buying a Samsung Galaxy s2 tablet (9.7"), so I can use the z21 app in "horizontal" orientation, which permits you to have two locomotive control screens displayed simultaneously (no "switching" to switch locos). Just "touch one side of the screen", or "touch the other". Fast 'n' easy.

As per the original subject, I can't see how "radio control" would be practical, when wifi control can do as much (or more).
An interesting exercise if one has the ability to do it, but beyond that -- no point.


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## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> That's why it's a con. Because in order for it not to be my phone, I have to disable notifications, put it on airplane mode, etc. etc., which then raises the possibility that I will forget to re-enable these features when I leave the train room.
> 
> I never said that it can't be done. Just about every problem I've ever encountered has a work-around. The question is whether it's worth it.


No, actually you don't have to disable anything at all nor do you have to put it on Airplane mode.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> That's why it's a con. Because in order for it not to be my phone, I have to disable notifications, put it on airplane mode, etc. etc., which then raises the possibility that I will forget to re-enable these features when I leave the train room.
> 
> I never said that it can't be done. Just about every problem I've ever encountered has a work-around. The question is whether it's worth it.


Again - that's why it's recommended to get a dedicated $19 dollar service-less phone, who's only job in the world is to control trains.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> But then everyone doesn't already have one in their pocket...
> 
> Maybe the reason it always comes up is that it's a valid concern for many of us. No one is saying it's an insurmountable obstacle, just something that needs to be considered.


Well - Considering...how much money is thrown around in this hobby, worrying about a sub-20 dollar item seems misguided.


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

Roving Sign said:


> Well - Considering...how much money is thrown around in this hobby, worrying about a sub-20 dollar item seems misguided.


Maybe to you but for some that could be the difference in getting that engine or not while available.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I just use my old phone. It was lying around unused, which was a shame because I'd just bought a new battery for it right before getting the new phone. So now it sits on the test layout, plugged in and ready to go when needed. If nothing else I'd imagine most of the folks here have kids, and THEY probably have an old phone lying around.

Oh and there was some chat about feedback of the interface. It's not exactly the same thing, but android phones can be set to give a little buzz each time you touch the screen. Works great for typing on the on-screen keyboard, so I don't know why it wouldn't be a good thing for a DCC controller.


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