# What Locomotives Markets are Underserved?



## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

What types of locomotives are scarce or nonexistent on the market nowadays? Being relatively new to the hobby, I don't have a long memory of offerings of yore. All of my experience is post-2010. 

I do know from personal experience that finding locomotives in HO Scale, especially steam locomotives, that aren't from the northeast or west, aren't USRA, and aren't brass, is akin to a herculean task. Sure, there are a few C&O and N&W locomotives out there, but the ACL, SAL, Southern, FEC, and similar Deep South roads are nearly unrepresented in the market. I also know from a few forum posts that antebellum and Civil War era locomotives are almost entirely unrepresented, as well.

What are your thoughts? What types of locomotives would you like to see more of?


Thanks for any replies,

Dreadnought


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

Dreadnought said:


> What types of locomotives are scarce or nonexistent on the market nowadays? Being relatively new to the hobby, I don't have a long memory of offerings of yore. All of my experience is post-2010.
> 
> I do know from personal experience that finding locomotives in HO Scale, especially steam locomotives, that aren't from the northeast or west, aren't USRA, and aren't brass, is akin to a herculean task. Sure, there are a few C&O and N&W locomotives out there, but the ACL, SAL, Southern, FEC, and similar Deep South roads are nearly unrepresented in the market. I also know from a few forum posts that antebellum and Civil War era locomotives are almost entirely unrepresented, as well.
> 
> ...


I can't say I'm an expert, but it seems like ultra-modern locomotives, like the Gensets, and ultra-early locomotives, like the John Bull, are scarce or non-existent. With the latter, there's some good reason for it, especially in smaller scales, as there's not much room for much of a motor in the actual locomotive.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I'd say the modern loco enthusiast is well served and Bachmann seem to offer quite an array of steamers. I don't think we can really complain. Don't know if the early steam market is well served by kits but trying to find a particular obscure loco could be fun. Scratch building could also be investigated.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I think the selection and availability in N, HO and O - all I have experience with, is excellent. There are a few specific locomotives I have not been able to get in O-Gauge right now, and want badly, but this is in addition to 100+ I do have. I really can't complain.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

"The market most under-served is the one for my specialty group"... said every hobbyist ever... 

From my perspective, *affordable* HOn3 locomotives are my unicorn. Sure Blackstone makes some impressive models, but with a $400 entry-level offering, they're not something I'm going to jump right in to. The only other option seems to be finding 70's-era Roundhouse/MDC kits for just this side of $100, and you better hope none of the parts were lost in the last 40 years. (Spoiler: parts _were_ lost)


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Shdwdrgn said:


> "The market most under-served is the one for my specialty group"... said every hobbyist ever...
> 
> From my perspective, *affordable* HOn3 locomotives are my unicorn. Sure Blackstone makes some impressive models, but with a $400 entry-level offering, they're not something I'm going to jump right in to. The only other option seems to be finding 70's-era Roundhouse/MDC kits for just this side of $100, and you better hope none of the parts were lost in the last 40 years. (Spoiler: parts _were_ lost)


A friend of mine sent a brass shay to get painted and when he got it back it wouldn't run, so he brought it to me. I started to take it apart, and then started laughing, the painter had forgotten to connect the drive shaft. I also built up an MDC shay that had a reputation of sounding like a coffee grinder when it ran. Mine was so quiet that you couldn't hear it run till it was almost at full speed, and then you could barely hear it. Both of these engines were produced in the HOn3 gauge. BTW take the original MDC gearbox and put it in your spare parts box, use NWSL gears and build a gearbox, and use a can motor with a flywheel.


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## daschnoz (Dec 12, 2016)

Not to mitch and boan  about Lionel's business model, but in a more general sense, I think the sub $600 locomotive offering (thinking LionChief+) is thin. I see no reason why they can't offer the same locomotives that they offer in their Legacy line in LC+ . Unless there is something more to it that I don't understand, they swap out the circuit board and it's done. I do understand that there are functions that the more advanced controllers have that LC+ can't do, so simply leave the implementation of those functions as part of the more advanced system.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

@thedoc -- Yeah the first thing I did with my kit was to find a low-RPM can motor that would fit. I'm using the original gears, but my motor only goes to 1000rpm. I'm in the process of painting the base, but once I have it back together I'll see how the new motor runs on the track. On the workbench it looked great, but of course that tells me nothing about pulling power.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

daschnoz said:


> Not to mitch and boan  about Lionel's business model, but in a more general sense, I think the sub $600 locomotive offering (thinking LionChief+) is thin. I see no reason why they can't offer the same locomotives that they offer in their Legacy line in LC+ . Unless there is something more to it that I don't understand, they swap out the circuit board and it's done. I do understand that there are functions that the more advanced controllers have that LC+ can't do, so simply leave the implementation of those functions as part of the more advanced system.


I agree 100%. I think eventually they might get there. I'd buy many.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Shdwdrgn said:


> @thedoc -- Yeah the first thing I did with my kit was to find a low-RPM can motor that would fit. I'm using the original gears, but my motor only goes to 1000rpm. I'm in the process of painting the base, but once I have it back together I'll see how the new motor runs on the track. On the workbench it looked great, but of course that tells me nothing about pulling power.


I have read several articles on how to assemble the side gears and the 3 cyl. engine. Some of them involved reaming out all but one gear so the rest were free floating and would not bind. The solution is actually easier, assemble the axles and worm, and then set each gear on the shaft and turn it till it meshes with the wheel gear. If done correctly there is no binding and no noise, and the engine will run smoothly. I believe I used a Sagami 14 - 25 w/flywheel but that was a long time ago, and I no longer have the engine.


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

I'm surprised there isn't more of a replacement shell market. I understand that it may be as limited as "this only works with a Kato GP-7," but I would think that many model railroaders would be okay with that, as long as the chosen base model was a good one.

I saw a picture, once, of a locomotive that reminded me of an RS-3 with the cab and short hood replaced with the cab of an SD90. That would be a good example where this idea would shine.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*My locomotive "wish list"*

My n-scale "wish list":
1) Maybe it's DCC, but no one seems to make dummy locomotives in n-scale anymore.
2) No one is currently making RDC's in n-scale. In researching the prototype "McKinley Explorer", I found that in the days of the dome cars in Bachmann's n-scale set; Alaska Railroad used RDC's "bringing up the rear" as control cabs. Two of them are now in commuter service in Portland, OR.
3) There are very few electric locomotives in n-scale beyond GG1's and some recent Amtrak models. I'm in awe of the Milwaukee Road EP-1 "Bipolars", and I recently followed an interesting thread on the HO forum regarding the Virginian E-33 "Rectifiers".

BTW, people did make replacement shells for HO scale Athearn "Blue Box" locomotive kits.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Ko Improbable said:


> I'm surprised there isn't more of a replacement shell market. I understand that it may be as limited as "this only works with a Kato GP-7," but I would think that many model railroaders would be okay with that, as long as the chosen base model was a good one.
> 
> I saw a picture, once, of a locomotive that reminded me of an RS-3 with the cab and short hood replaced with the cab of an SD90. That would be a good example where this idea would shine.


Because if you can sell a shell, why not an entire locomotive? Makes perfect sense from the manufacturer's point of view.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

One of the things I really liked when I returned to O from N and HO was the large amount of used locos, in good or bad condition, I could buy at swap meets. It seems to be about five or more times as much as in N. I've bought some used locos just to get the body, etc. 

As I said earlier, I thnik the O-Guage market does pretty well delivering most of the locos I want. The list below represents about half of my "want-it-but-don't have-it" list, but only the locos that I have not determined have been made. About half my list has been made I just haven't found a good used one, or a new offering has not yet been forthcoming. The models I want are all locos made outside the US

Russian AA20-1, the only 4-14-4 ever made. (Terrible loco, but . . .) 
Diecast body, not tinplate Gresley A3 Pacific
Diecast, not tinplate Gresley A4 Mallard
Chapelon ETAT 4-8-4 242.A1


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> Because if you can sell a shell, why not an entire locomotive? Makes perfect sense from the manufacturer's point of view.


Well, this wouldn't necessarily be from a locomotive manufacturer. This could just be some company with experience with development of and manufacturing with injection molding. So, let's say it's Games Workshop (they make high-detail plastic miniatures). They could A.) make a Genset locomotive shell that fits only on a Kato RS-1, B.) make a multi-piece set-up where you're buying a kit that has a Genset shell and then some pieces the purchaser is required to glue onto the shell that allow the Genset shell to fit a Kato RS-1, a Bachman RS-3, or [some other equivalent locomotive], or C.) make a Genset locomotive shell and then buy Kato RS-1s, sans shells, and sell them with their own branding.
They don't have to go through the trouble of developing some drive system that they can't get sued over (i.e. not a copy of anything currently in use), and then work out all the bugs in it, potentially going out of business because their first generation of locomotives are viewed as garbage and nobody is interested in trying the second generation, wherein all of the flaws are fixed. The closest to dealing with DCC they'll have to do is making sure the shell has enough space for the very same DCC system the host body uses.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Ko's got a pretty good point, it would cost less and be simpler to just make a shell than make an entire locomotive. Plus, no copyright infringement to deal with.

As for the 4-14-4, I'd also like to see that in scale, though it would run on Russian 5' gauge so having it on standard gauge would be non-prototypical. I don't know if they do much modeling in Russia (I don't think they do) but I'll assume they use standard gauge track since the difference is minor.

On that note, I would also like to see what one brass company did which was release fantasy locomotives, such as a narrow gauge American Garratt locomotive. I assumed that series was quite popular because of the asking price of the locomotive in question. I wouldn't mind seeing some of these in scale:

























We can always dream..


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

It seems like there's pretty few early locomotives. There's a bunch of unique ones that could be done, like the Pen-y-darren, but its wheels look like they're not supposed to run on regular tracks so they'd probably have to make the wheels for a locomotive like that modified. Tinplate trains that aren't modeled after any particular train (I don't think the 390E and 400E were, for example) are also neat but they're mostly non-existent now aside from reproductions, and they're only for O and Standard Gauge mostly. A more specific train I would love to see is the Crusader, there's a few models of it in HO and O scale, but they're very expensive and those are the only scales it exists in (I've seen a lego version at the Strasburg railroad museum though  )


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Ko Improbable said:


> Well, this wouldn't necessarily be from a locomotive manufacturer. This could just be some company with experience with development of and manufacturing with injection molding. So, let's say it's Games Workshop (they make high-detail plastic miniatures). They could A.) make a Genset locomotive shell that fits only on a Kato RS-1, B.) make a multi-piece set-up where you're buying a kit that has a Genset shell and then some pieces the purchaser is required to glue onto the shell that allow the Genset shell to fit a Kato RS-1, a Bachman RS-3, or [some other equivalent locomotive], or C.) make a Genset locomotive shell and then buy Kato RS-1s, sans shells, and sell them with their own branding.
> They don't have to go through the trouble of developing some drive system that they can't get sued over (i.e. not a copy of anything currently in use), and then work out all the bugs in it, potentially going out of business because their first generation of locomotives are viewed as garbage and nobody is interested in trying the second generation, wherein all of the flaws are fixed. The closest to dealing with DCC they'll have to do is making sure the shell has enough space for the very same DCC system the host body uses.


I get the concept, but I think the loco manufacturers would be obstructionist about it. Everybody's chssis is a little different, so any 3rd party would be in the position of having to get very specific: New Haven shell for an Atlas GP-9 chassis, for example, which would involve lots of specialization and erode profitability.


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> I get the concept, but I think the loco manufacturers would be obstructionist about it. Everybody's chssis is a little different, so any 3rd party would be in the position of having to get very specific: New Haven shell for an Atlas GP-9 chassis, for example, which would involve lots of specialization and erode profitability.


One would think so, but it works in other markets, like the firearms industry. Even when you rule out the firearms that are extremely common, you still find there are a few companies making parts to customize very specific firearms. Replacement stock for an FN SCAR, for example.
If, however, a locomotive manufacturer continually changes what is under the shell or how the shell attaches, that could be a problem, but likely not a huge one, especially if there is a post-molding light machining step (drilling holes, for example) that allows the shell to fit the chassis.
Additionally, there are certainly ways to make one shell fit multiple chassis, and, as such, changes to the chassis wouldn't totally ruin that product line.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Conversion Shells*

In the 1989 Walthers N & Z catalog, a company called "V-Line Locomotives, Inc." offered three n-scale conversion shells: A Baldwin RF16A "Sharknose" that "Fits (with minor alterations) the MRC and Model Power FA2 chassis, the Atlas RS-3 chassis and the Roco and Atlas flywheel equipped FA1 chassis." They came in NYC and undecorated. There was also a RF16B shell (undecorated only) and a Fairbanks-Morse "Erie-built" shell that "Fits Con-cor PA mechanism" and came in PRR, NYC, UP, and undecorated. There are some of these on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/V-Line-Fairbanks-Morse-Erie-Built-Locomotive-Shell-N-Scale-/131114550875


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

One would hope the current manufacturers would welcome a market of replacement shells and customized parts. Even if they aren't selling complete locos, they would still have new sales for the chassis, and even a small number of sales would be important in this rather small marketplace.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Hmm, replacement shells interest me. What types of locomotives would shells be popular for? Could this same kind of concept be applied to steam locomotives? For example, you could sell a shell for the Bachmann K-4 Pacific to make it have a 'skyline' casing like below:








Or even a fully streamlined shell:








Though the latter one might interfere with the chassis somewhat, and would require a different tender to be accurate. You could sell tender shells too though..


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Conversion Shells, pt. 2*

Actually, in terms of diesels, I think "V-Line" had it right - distinctive units from smaller manufacturers that were common on large "fallen flags". OK, true, I'd like an NW5 shell for a GP7 frame in GN paint, but that's just me


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

The chassis for the NW5 and GP7 are rather different, if I remember correctly. Wouldn't it be more accurate to put an NW5 shell on a Kato or BLI NW2 chassis? Or do little things like truck style and fuel tank configuration not really matter to this market.


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

Dreadnought said:


> Hmm, replacement shells interest me. What types of locomotives would shells be popular for? Could this same kind of concept be applied to steam locomotives? For example, you could sell a shell for the Bachmann K-4 Pacific to make it have a 'skyline' casing like below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd thought about the steam locomotives, but forgot about these streamlined variants. *Those* would work. But, a conversion like turning a 4-4-0 like the _Jupiter_ into a D16 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_D16 ) would be a major stretch, even if possible, and that doesn't even take DCC controllers into consideration.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Ko Improbable said:


> I'd thought about the steam locomotives, but forgot about these streamlined variants. *Those* would work. But, a conversion like turning a 4-4-0 like the _Jupiter_ into a D16 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRR_D16 ) would be a major stretch, even if possible, and that doesn't even take DCC controllers into consideration.


Oh definitely, it would have to be something that fit on the same chassis. For example, if you wanted to completely change the class from one to another, one which would work would be the Southern Ps-4 from a USRA Light Pacific. I think Bachmann makes one. I know I would buy that myself.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*The NW5*

The EMD NW5 wasn't a switcher, but a branchline passenger locomotive. It's been described as everything from "the direct ancestor of the Geep" to "EMD's RS-1 clone". It was a stretched NW2 with a short hood for a steam generator. It was about 2 feet shorter than a GP7 (which would be millimeters in n-scale) and rode on the same Blomberg trucks as the GP7. There were only 13 made, 10 of which were for Great Northern. There seem to be two that are still operational

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4520817
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4199065


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

I suppose you're right, I'm not an expert on diesel undercarriages though so I'll defer to your judgement on that.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

The modern Amtrak loco...

I'll have to find the pic I have, but I haven't seen one available from any one. All the Amtrak locos I see don't look like the one I'm looking for...


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Ko Improbable said:


> One would think so, but it works in other markets, like the firearms industry. Even when you rule out the firearms that are extremely common, you still find there are a few companies making parts to customize very specific firearms. Replacement stock for an FN SCAR, for example.
> If, however, a locomotive manufacturer continually changes what is under the shell or how the shell attaches, that could be a problem, but likely not a huge one, especially if there is a post-molding light machining step (drilling holes, for example) that allows the shell to fit the chassis.
> Additionally, there are certainly ways to make one shell fit multiple chassis, and, as such, changes to the chassis wouldn't totally ruin that product line.


At one time it was very common in model railroading to modify, alter,kit-bash or do whatever to get what was wanted. Today this seems to be done on a regular basis only by two rail O scale modelers. Yes, I am sure there are many in other scales also but 
I think it is common practice in 2 R O scale.


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