# Terrain is coming along



## JeffHurl

I have been carving up the foam layers for the terrain. I'd say I'm 70% complete, and almost ready to lay the upper level track.

The upper level track is a pinched oval that crosses in each direction over the double bridge. The centerlines are traced with a sharpie pen. A spur will serve small industries on the one side and another spur on the other side for a town.

I'm happy with the results so far!


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## Andreash

Nice work…looking forward to watching this build…cheers☕🍩


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## Jscullans

Looks good!


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## JeffHurl

I still have a long way to go. In addition to laying the upper level track, I need to cut tunnel access hatches above the 2 tunnels on either end of the one bridge that's closest to the control panel. I need to vacuum up the foam debris, but my oldest daughter has my shop vac... so I need her to return it. I need to clean up before putting down the cork roadbed. I hope to get that started this weekend. I also need to be sure the upper level bridge is sitting at the right height, and figure out what I want to do for bridge piers for that bridge. Not sure I want to fabricate them from scrap foam like I did for the lower level bridges. 

I need to set the bridges on the lower level. Right now they are just sitting there. I need to anchor them, and secure the track to the bridges.

And I still have a lot of carving to do. I have a lot of plaster cloth on the way, so at some point in the next few weeks, I should be able to start on the scenery.

I have 2 new locomotives on the way, and would like to run trains for a while once I get the upper level track laid down and before I start into the messy aspects of scenery. Because once I start with the plaster cloth, I'll have to mask off the track with painter's tape in order to keep all the crap from getting into the track.

During the week, I have an hour or so on some evenings which doesn't allow a lot of time to make serious progress. So the weekends are important. I find myself doing things on week nights to prepare for the weekend so the weekend can be as efficient as possible.


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## OilValleyRy

That looks great! And looks like it’ll be tons of fun to scenic & operate too! I particularly like the curved reverse track to the left of your control stand, which looks like it could double as an interchange track between the loops. I don’t know what you’re planning there, but it screams “blasted cut” by 1920s dynamiters. I think that has promise to be a highly photographed spot.


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## JeffHurl

Yeah, "blasted cut" will be a theme for sure. The area I'm modeling (Ohio River valley between Ohio and West Virginia) has a lot of roads and railways along the river where the roadbeds were blasted away from the hills.


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## JeffHurl

Tunnel access with dead trees for handles.


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## Bogomips622

How do you secure items to the foam?
Bill


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## JeffHurl

I lay down the cork roadbed with Elmer's Glue. Tack it down with T-pins and weigh it down with soup cans over night.

I use Liquid Nails Projects adhesive to layer the sheets of foam.

The tree trunks are held down with CA glue.

I plan to use plaster cloth on a lot of this to smooth out the ground. I'm going to use wadded up paper and small strips of cardboard to smooth out some places.


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## OilValleyRy

Quick tip for free blasted rock; I've had good success using broken cement “crumbs.” But it can’t be the type with large aggregate (stones) that were in the mix. 
I suppose you could pour some quikcrete & bust it up… but why pay when there are so many busted parking lots, sidewalks, curbs, etc.


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## MichaelE

Unless you are modelling the Midwest prairie, African savanna, or concrete and steel downtown area, once you think you have enough trees, add more. There are more trees in just about any area than you first think there are.

I planted 100 trees in an 20"x40" area and it still looks sparse. Another 60 or 70 is needed.


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## Chops

Wow, what an N empire. Bridges are always dynamic. Without bridges, civilization would not exist. Nice how you put in three different types. I hope you can do a little video of this empire in action someday.


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## Chops

MichaelE said:


> Unless you are modelling the Midwest prairie, African savanna, or concrete and steel downtown area, once you think you have enough trees, add more. There are more trees in just about any area than you first think there are.
> 
> I planted 100 trees in an 20"x40" area and it still looks sparse. Another 60 or 70 is needed.


 Don't be daft, man, can't you see this _is _the African savannah he is modeling??
(Could be El Paso, where I reside. A dearth of trees. Resembles Australian outback).


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## Bogomips622

JeffHurl said:


> I lay down the cork roadbed with Elmer's Glue. Tack it down with T-pins and weigh it down with soup cans over night.
> 
> I use Liquid Nails Projects adhesive to layer the sheets of foam.
> 
> The tree trunks are held down with CA glue.
> 
> I plan to use plaster cloth on a lot of this to smooth out the ground. I'm going to use wadded up paper and small strips of cardboard to smooth out some places.


Thank you. I was thinking of changing my substrate from plywood to foam.

Bill


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## CTValleyRR

Bogomips622 said:


> Thank you. I was thinking of changing my substrate from plywood to foam.
> 
> Bill


If by "changing" you mean changing what you plan to use, it's a good idea. I have grown to prefer it. But I wouldn't rip out perfectly good plywood. You can definitely combine the two techniques on the same layout.


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## Bogomips622

CTValleyRR said:


> If by "changing" you mean changing what you plan to use, it's a good idea. I have grown to prefer it. But I wouldn't rip out perfectly good plywood. You can definitely combine the two techniques on the same layout.


Well at the moment all I have is a 8x4 sheet covered with tablecloth. Nothing permanent.








I have added a second track on trestle in an oval. I'm not very artsy/craftsy more of a runner guy from what I understand. I may add an additional 4 feet off the side. 

Bill


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## CTValleyRR

Bogomips622 said:


> Well at the moment all I have is a 8x4 sheet covered with tablecloth. Nothing permanent.
> View attachment 574074
> 
> I have added a second track on trestle in an oval. I'm not very artsy/craftsy more of a runner guy from what I understand. I may add an additional 4 feet off the side.
> 
> Bill


You can build terrain using foam off of that base. If you add on to the side, you could use a foam base for that. Just be careful to match the heights of the layout surfaces.


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## JeffHurl

Chops said:


> Wow, what an N empire. Bridges are always dynamic. Without bridges, civilization would not exist. Nice how you put in three different types. I hope you can do a little video of this empire in action someday.


Here is a quick walk around.


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## Steve Rothstein

Chops said:


> Don't be daft, man, can't you see this _is _the African savannah he is modeling??
> (Could be El Paso, where I reside. A dearth of trees. Resembles Australian outback).


Well, with two dead trees sticking up, I thought it was the Lubbock to Amarillo area.


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## JeffHurl

Got all the cork roadbed laid between yesterday evening and today. I plan to lay track tomorrow.


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## JeffHurl

Got everything cleaned up, so I thought I'd run a short consist before laying the upper level track.


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## JeffHurl

Another short load, this time pulled by my new Ohio Central C420. Ohio Central runs the track by my house and their locos are painted just like this one.


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## JeffHurl

I now have all the track laid on the upper level, just need to run and solder some feeders, and get the turnout motors hooked up. Then it's plaster cloth time!


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## JeffHurl

Plaster cloth is messy, lol!

This is going to need a smear of plaster to smooth everything out once this first layer sets. 

















Coming along slowly. I thought this would be more fun than it is. It's a bit tedious around the details.

I need to start keeping my eyes peeled for some cheap house paint I can get tinted to look like dirt.


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## vette-kid

That terrain is looking great! Not sure why I didn't think to tape the track when I did plaster work!

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## Chaostrain

It's looking good. Take a look at Habitat for Humanity resell store or a similar place for your cheap paint. They sell construction and other household items donated. Most is used but sometimes stores donate new.


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## JeffHurl

I had a pair of spare tunnel portals that made a nice road bridge over a stream.


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## JeffHurl

Progress has been a little slow, but finally got a layer of plaster cloth on the village side of the river.


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## JeffHurl

Now a week or so to run trains after I give the track a good cleaning in the morning.


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## JeffHurl

Trains are running!


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## JeffHurl




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## OilValleyRy

JeffHurl said:


> I need to start keeping my eyes peeled for some cheap house paint I can get tinted to look like dirt.


In the off chance that you (or others reading) didn’t know, most big stores like Home Depot have a rack of Oops! Paint. No that’s not a brand. It is color matched paint that was mis-matched. These are always on clearance. Often times you'll find neon oranges or purples, but it is not uncommon to find tans & browns, or even a slightly off-color chalkboard green or bit too olivey olive drab. You might only find a single quart one week, might find two usable gallons the next.


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## BigGRacing

JeffHurl said:


>


Jeff, it looks like it is running as a smooth, well oiled machine! That is awesome !


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## JeffHurl

My sister came over this past weekend. She has always been fascinated with small things, so we had some fun and placed a lot of the structures I have been building. It's coming along nicely.


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## Raege

Nice! Gotta be fun lining stuff up starting to see physically what you have planned on paper.


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## OilValleyRy

That mansion with turret looks like it’ll be great fun. Reminds me of an 1800s hotel that I woulda/shoulda bought had I not bought my current home 12-15 months prior. 
Is that a 1 piece 3D print? I wouldn’t be able to resist having one wall hinged/removable & do a full interior. But I’m crazy like that.


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## TommyB

Nice work on those buildings! A good variety, with a good mix of paint schemes. Looks very nice!


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## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> That mansion with turret looks like it’ll be great fun. Reminds me of an 1800s hotel that I woulda/shoulda bought had I not bought my current home 12-15 months prior.
> Is that a 1 piece 3D print? I wouldn’t be able to resist having one wall hinged/removable & do a full interior. But I’m crazy like that.


Yes, that is the Madam Sally House by Gold Rush Bay. It's a one-piece 3D printed Victorian style house. They do have a couple of items that hinge open as you describe. This one doesn't, and was only $30 plus shipping. I thought that was a good deal. That structure is kind of like a statement piece, being a cool old Victorian Mansion. I haven't mustered up the courage to paint it yet. Not sure I have the patience to do it justice. The only thing I've done is paint the turret a copper patina. Not sure I did a very good job on it either. But eventually, it will look great!


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## JeffHurl

TommyB said:


> Nice work on those buildings! A good variety, with a good mix of paint schemes. Looks very nice!


Thanks! About a year ago, I bought a Walthers kit that had 13 "down town" buildings in it. I bought it from someone who had assembled 6 of the buildings already. So a few of them were already painted when I bought them. I re-painted one, and may end up re-painting a couple more. Over the past year, I have slowly acquired more kits to build. I really enjoy building structures, but I think I'm pretty close to having just about everything I need. Of course, I'll always _want_ more.  I like building them more than I like to paint them. There are a couple of house kits I put together that look fine without a drop of paint. 

There are also a few brick buildings that I still need to get some mortar applied to. 

And I've been looking for another statement piece for the village. I'd love to have a bigger church I can find many small rural style churches, but I'd really like to have a larger church, almost like a cathedral. Gold Rush Bay sells one, but it's one of those that hinge open and has a removable interior... Makes it out of my price range. Plus, it's a little over the top for a small "county seat" type of town I'm modeling.


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## MichaelE

Have a look at these churches. They are larger than a village country church, but not the size of a Parish Cathedral.
These are not links as I didn't think you would want to purchase from Germany. Amazon may have some of these and it's possible better on-line shops in the States might carry a few of them.

*Faller 130680
Faller 130239
Faller 130490
Faller 130599*
*Kibri 39760
Kibri 39772
Vollmer 49210
Vollmer 43768*
*Vollmer 43739 *This one is a larger Cathedral in Stuttgart.
*Vollmer 43769*


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## JeffHurl

MichaelE said:


> Have a look at these churches. They are larger than a village country church, but not the size of a Parish Cathedral.
> These are not links as I didn't think you would want to purchase from Germany. Amazon may have some of these and it's possible better on-line shops in the States might carry a few of them.
> 
> *Faller 130680
> Faller 130239
> Faller 130490
> Faller 130599*
> *Kibri 39760
> Kibri 39772
> Vollmer 49210
> Vollmer 43768*
> *Vollmer 43739 *This one is a larger Cathedral in Stuttgart.
> *Vollmer 43769*


Thank you for your efforts! Those are exactly like what I'm looking for, but they are all about twice the size I need. I'm N gauge, and all those are HO.

One of the things that keeps HO at the top of the heap is the depth of variety for structures and accessories, let alone locos and rolling stock. There just isn't much in N scale when it comes to county seat churches. Gold Rush Bay makes a nice one, but it's hinged with a removable interior, and is out of my price range, and a little over the top to fit into my scheme.

I'm starting to lean toward a custom 3D print, but not really sure about finding a trustworthy source.

The only N scale church I have found that fits the scheme is by Tomix/TommyTech. It's affordable but shipping is from Japan and almost doubles the cost. I usually search about once a month, hoping to find one already in the continental US, but so far I have not been successful.








This one is $40, but shipping is $18, which puts it above my $50 limit.


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## MichaelE

Oh man, I'm sorry I didn't notice the scale.


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## TommyB

JeffHurl said:


> Thanks! About a year ago, I bought a Walthers kit that had 13 "down town" buildings in it. I bought it from someone who had assembled 6 of the buildings already. So a few of them were already painted when I bought them. I re-painted one, and may end up re-painting a couple more. Over the past year, I have slowly acquired more kits to build. I really enjoy building structures, but I think I'm pretty close to having just about everything I need. Of course, I'll always _want_ more.  I like building them more than I like to paint them. There are a couple of house kits I put together that look fine without a drop of paint.
> 
> There are also a few brick buildings that I still need to get some mortar applied to.
> 
> And I've been looking for another statement piece for the village. I'd love to have a bigger church I can find many small rural style churches, but I'd really like to have a larger church, almost like a cathedral. Gold Rush Bay sells one, but it's one of those that hinge open and has a removable interior... Makes it out of my price range. Plus, it's a little over the top for a small "county seat" type of town I'm modeling.


Assembling building structures are a favorite part of the hobby for me, too. I have a tendency to use too much of the same colors, so I end up doing a lot of re-work. So, those photos of yours provide a bit of inspiration for me with the assortment of color that you have used. Most of my buildings are not set down permanently yet either. Weathering and detailing is something I need to get more involved with as well, but until I decide where a piece is going to eventually sit, permanently, there seems to be no urgency to do so. All in good time, I suppose.


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## TommyB

Here is a photo of a factory I am working on in my industrial district. I spend a lot of time and effort on that compared to my city buildings, in the other attached photo. I have included a photo of a crane I am seeking, or anything close to it. N scale. So far I can find nothing, so if any of you forum members have any ideas please let me know.


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## JeffHurl

Try this link

or maybe this one?


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## TommyB

JeffHurl said:


> Try this link
> 
> or maybe this one?


Thanks for those links. The second one is more like what I want. I'm surprised that I haven't come across that kit. It looks like something that I can alter and adapt to my purpose. The crane operator's cab is perfect. On another note, those tanks sitting on the rooftop of that one building must have photobombed my picture. They don't belong there. I had just recently put them together and just set them down....LOL


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## TommyB

I just ordered that Vollmer kit. Everywhere I looked, the item is on backorder, and presumably it comes from Europe. But I found a Canadian outlet that lists this crane, so I went ahead and ordered it. One day there will be a "surprise" email telling me my order has shipped. Meantime, I can forget about it for now, knowing that I have the solution to my needs, and I can stop looking.


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## JeffHurl

Not much progress on my layout, other than having fun running the trains. I did finally get to finish up mounting the control switch panel so it can hinge down and out of the way so I can get closer to that part of the table (in case I need to reach).

I still need to run some more power feeders to the spurs on the upper level, and get those turnout motors wired into the switch board. Then I'll put away the trains for a couple of weeks while I plaster the other side.


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## JeffHurl

I spent a couple hours painting the mansion I got from from Gold Rush Bay. It came out better than I thought it would. I still have to paint the floors and stairs. I'm thinking light wood color... Something to help balance out the copper spire.









It looks great from a foot away, but as Mark Knopfler says, " closeups can get rough.". I'll need to touch up a lot of white when I'm done.

All in all, I think this is a fantastic deal at $30.


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## JeffHurl




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## JeffHurl

Laying more plaster cloth while I isolate at home with COVID. Really mild symptoms. I've had colds worse than this. But Im doing my part and keeping these germs to myself.

Reminds me of missing a week of school when I had the Mumps... Never felt too bad and got to stay home from school. Except this time I'm home from work.

I feel guilty, but I'm not upset about it, lol


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## Raege

Glad it's a mild case. Look forward to some eye candy pics of your layout progress.


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## JeffHurl

I had picked up a few Woodland Scenic rock molds a while ago and finally made several batches of rocks yesterday evening. It takes about an hour for these to cure enough to remove from the molds without breaking them.

Using DAP Plaster of Paris from Lowes. I made up a spray bottle of a couple of cups of water and a few drops of dish soap, and wet down the molds before filling with a fresh batch of plaster.

I make a few batches, then mix up a little plaster to use as cement to hold the rocks to the ledge.


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## JeffHurl




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## JeffHurl

The committee inside my head is undecided about where to stop, LOL! Making rocks is strangely satisfying. I used all the plaseter my wife had on hand from back when we were making plaster molds of baby hand prints and such. Then went to Lowes and bought some more Plaster of Paris. I have enough left to make one more batch... But I think I need more. So I'll be stopping at Lowes on the way home this evening so I can make more.


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## JeffHurl

Also forgot to mention that I picked up a "mistint" gallon of house paint at Lowes for $9. Flat Exterior Latex paint tinted a dark tan/light brown color... should be great for a base color for the plaster hills and plains... I'm probably going to get and use Woodland Scenics Earth Colors Liquid Pigments to color the rock outcroppings. They have very nice videos on how to use them.


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## JeffHurl

Is it bad that I'm actually hoping for snowpocalypse tonight/tomorrow... I would hate to have to work from home and have all this temptation to work on my layout rather than do work, lol.

I bought more plaster of Paris yesterday just so I'd have something to do if I'm stuck at home for a day or 2.


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## pmcgurin

Very impressive.


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## JeffHurl

Thanks! It's an addictive hobby for sure.


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## JeffHurl

Tried dyeing the rocks with diluted liquid pigment.

I think I used too much yellow ocher..

Next step is to seal with watered down Elmer's Glue All, then a black wash.

But I might hit it with raw umber one more time first.


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## Raege

Looks pretty good to me. Maybe some dry brushing of umber or a wash of it. To my taste a black wash for the creases to pop a bit more and it would be gtg. thanks for sharing enjoying watching the progress


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## Steve Rothstein

I agree, it looks good. Much better than I could hope to do.


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## BigGRacing

JeffHurl said:


> I think I used too much


I think it look awesome !


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## JeffHurl

Applied a black wash after it was sealed with scenic cement. I think it came out great!


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## JeffHurl

Then I put down a few acres of grass.


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## vette-kid

What are you using for grass?

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## JeffHurl

2mm static grass in one area. The rest is also static grass but with some generic turf mixed in.


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## Raege

Looking good just right on the yellow ochre


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## JeffHurl

More grass, shrubs and trees.


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## Raege

Shaaweeet! Your tearing it up lots of progress and eye candy


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## TommyB

Looking real good! My layout is mostly flat terrain (intentionally), but looking at your photos, I see where I can put some "bumps" here and there to add more realism. Nice work! Enjoying this thread.


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## JeffHurl

MichaelE said:


> ...once you think you have enough trees, add more. There are more trees in just about any area than you first think there are.
> 
> I planted 100 trees in an 20"x40" area and it still looks sparse. Another 60 or 70 is needed.


I'm beginning to understand what you mean, lol.

I'm going to need a lot of trees. Heading to the LHS today to get more static grass, clump foliage and tree armatures. I'll bet I've put 50 trees down, and I'm going to need 2-3 times that amount or more. I'm thinking about ways to make a forest canopy without actually "planting" dozens of trees...

The trees I made from stranded wire look great compared to anything I have made using plastic armatures. Although, the stranded wire tress take a good 15 minutes each to make. With the plastic armatures, I can pump out 15 trees in 5 minutes.

Planting trees is quite satisfying. I need to work on shrubs and bushes. Originally, I thought the clump foliage would make good bushes, but they are almost too dense. I'll spend some time at the LHS checking out what they have available.

This hobby is a lot of fun.


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## vette-kid

I really need to learn to make trees. I just missed buying a box of 200 for $70. That would save time for sure!

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## JeffHurl

I've been having good luck with Woodland Scenic. They have a few products that I have found to work pretty well. The first is "Fine Leaf Foliage." This stuff is made from something that resembles tiny trees, all stuffed into a plastic package. You get about 20 or so "trees" that range from 1" to 5" and then you have a bunch of smaller material that works well for bushes and other weedy type vegetation.

Then you have WS plastic tree armatures. You can get a package with about 50 mid-sized, 100 small sized, or a dozen or so larger sized ones. These come "flat" but a little bit of time and you can bend them into a realistic looking tree shapes. Each package will have a variety of tree shapes. Hit each one with some spray adhesive on the tips and then dunk into a bin with clump leaf foliage and violet!!!! trees! They come with a plastic base, but I've learned that instead of sticking the tree onto a plastic base, I'm just punching a hole in the ground (plaster and paint on top of foam) and sticking the trees in there.

Like I said earlier... the trees I made using stranded wire look the best. But they take too long to use anywhee other than where you really want the trees to look perfect.


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## JeffHurl

Progress on a couple areas. Planted a few more trees and set out some houses.

I still have a lot of work to do, but I'm starting to see the picture coming together.

Still need to put down streets and more foliage like shrubs and bushes.


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## JeffHurl

Another area with progress is the logging site. I laid down some 4mm static grass, then sprinkled it with earth colored fine turf. Set in the big trees, and now just need to finish the Forrest.

A gravel road will go up and around, with a Forrest along the outside edges.


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## Thelic

If mines comes along even a hundredth as quickly I will be happy. You're flying and it looks great!


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## JeffHurl

Thelic said:


> If mines comes along even a hundredth as quickly I will be happy. You're flying and it looks great!


Thanks! I've been lucky to be able to spend a couple hours in the evenings, and the better part of last Sunday on things.

I've got to slow down a little bit and be mindful that I have a wife who is becoming a bit jealous that my hobby has become my mistress...


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## BigGRacing

JeffHurl said:


> wife who is becoming a bit jealous


I hear you there !


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## CHRlSTIAN

JeffHurl said:


> I've got to slow down a little bit and be mindful that I have a wife who is becoming a bit jealous that my hobby has become my mistress...


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## JeffHurl

And this hobby doesn't expect me to do the dishes or put my dirty clothes in the hamper... It doesn't expect me to remember birthdays or anniversaries either... But then.. my hobby doesn't make me a sammich either... so there's that...


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## vette-kid

I suspect many in this hobby are in similar situation! I just keep telling her it's bonding with my son... you can't put a price on that!

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## JeffHurl

I just wish my dog would be into it, LOL!

Both my kids are grown and have flown the coop. Our youngest is living in our guest house while she finishes up her Masters in Physician Assistant program. So she "gets" to see the progress a couple times per week. They enjoy looking at it, and kind of roll their eyes (what girls don't?) . It's funny... my sister is more into this than my wife and daughters are.

In all seriousness, though... They are all happy I have a hobby that keeps me off the streets. But like most of the things I do... I'm either in 150%, or I'm out...

Tomorrow marks my 3-year sober anniversary. This hobby has made this third year really easy. It's nice to have something in which I can get lost for a few hours at a time without alcohol being involved.


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## JeffHurl

More large trees and a gravel road. And put a few boulders here and there.

Next step is to fill in the Forrest with smaller trees.

I think I will fabricate a chord of wood for the cabin.


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## pmcgurin

OMG that's beautiful! 
If we stay in our house long enough I will build another layout. What you have done is a wonderful example. Thanks for all these pics.


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## JeffHurl

pmcgurin said:


> OMG that's beautiful!
> If we stay in our house long enough I will build another layout. What you have done is a wonderful example. Thanks for all these pics.


Thanks! It's exciting to see the plan come together. But I still have a lot to do in other areas I haven't even really started yet.


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## BigEd

Looking good JeffHurl


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## Raege

JeffHurl said:


> They are all happy I have a hobby that keeps me off the streets.


Is that were you got the money to start this hobby? 
Sorry couldn't resist the easy joke😃 seriously it's looking awesome and grats on the three.


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## BigEd

Raege said:


> Is that were you got the money to start this hobby?


Where I got mine. Seriously. And smoking. Very expensive here and in Europe where I started back in the hobby...😇

When I told my biker buddies - I have no more bike, don't drink of smoke or chase tail... the only response was what are you living for? My reply - my trains...ok, ok, the family too...🤣


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## JeffHurl

Almost ready to move on to another area.
More trees and a small logging site.


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## Raege

Impressive progress and looking good.


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## JeffHurl

Thank you all for the kind words!

I have watched a LOT of YouTube videos and scoured the internet for ideas and to learn what products work well and what techniques seem to give good results without too much skill, LOL.

Yesterday, before the Super Bowl started, I put down some grass surrounding the logging site, so a few more trees, and this area will be done (for now) It's about time to start a new thread as I transition into another area of my layout. I'm getting the urge to run trains, so I think I'll just lay down more grass and focus on the dairy farm next, as there won't be too many trees on the farm, just a good size pasture for the cows. I think I can get the rest of this side far enough along where I can get rid of the painter's tape on the track.

BTW, I just realized that the Woodland Scenic dairy cows that come in a small package includes a few small cow patties, LOL!


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## Raege

Cow Patties! It’s been amazing to me the detailed bits available nowadays. Coming back into the hobby a few decades without paying attention will do that I guess. It’s pretty cool the number of venders and finding just about anything you could dream up with a few keyboard strokes.
Now have to look at a small steam maker for those cowpies to make them really stand out fresh.


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## nygooch

I will be interested to see how your farm ends up as that is one of the first things I was going to do on my layout once the plaster is all finished.


----------



## JeffHurl

nygooch said:


> I will be interested to see how your farm ends up as that is one of the first things I was going to do on my layout once the plaster is all finished.


I'm in N scale, so for lawn quality grass, I need 2mm static grass. But since this will be more of a pasture, I'm leaning toward a blend of 2mm and 4mm. Perhaps lay down the shorter 2mm first as a nice green grass color, then come along with lighter greens and straw color in the longer 4mm grasses. Not sure if this is going to be just pastures, or if I want to put in a hay field too. The si\ze of my farm isn't going to be too large... probably about 2 square feet, so not a ton of room.

I've been thinking about how to model cow paths... basically a dirt "road" without being gravel. With gravel roads, I have been just laying down the gravel on top of the grass. Now I need to come up with a way to leave a narrow pathway where the grass doesn't grow due to heavy cow traffic. Perhaps just lay down the grass, then, before it dries, just use my finger to smudge the pathway...

I'll figure it out.


----------



## BigEd

JeffHurl said:


> ...
> BTW, I just realized that the Woodland Scenic dairy cows that come in a small package includes a few small cow patties, LOL!
> View attachment 577368


Never noticed that. Guess whose set is still sealed...


----------



## BigEd

JeffHurl said:


> ...
> I've been thinking about how to model cow paths... basically a dirt "road" without being gravel. With gravel roads, I have been just laying down the gravel on top of the grass. Now I need to come up with a way to leave a narrow pathway where the grass doesn't grow due to heavy cow traffic. Perhaps just lay down the grass, then, before it dries, just use my finger to smudge the pathway...
> 
> I'll figure it out.


Maybe try this - something I've used in the past on gravel to make a two lane path. Just fold a small piece of fine sanding paper and sand/make paths that way. 

You can experiment with it on a scrap piece or make a test piece somewhere else the same as your pasture and test several options on it.

I'll keep watching how you progress...


----------



## JeffHurl

BigEd said:


> Maybe try this - something I've used in the past on gravel to make a two lane path. Just fold a small piece of fine sanding paper and sand/make paths that way.
> 
> You can experiment with it on a scrap piece or make a test piece somewhere else the same as your pasture and test several options on it.
> 
> I'll keep watching how you progress...


So you use the folded edge to rub a "rut" into the grass?


----------



## BigEd

JeffHurl said:


> So you use the folded edge to rub a "rut" into the grass?


Correct! Trust me to forget mentioning that....


----------



## JeffHurl

Ok now my gears are turning... A small disc cut out of finger nail file...
You could use 2 pieces on either side of a proper sized piece of trim wood, and it could make a 2-wheel path in the grass.


----------



## JeffHurl

I made a small "sled" using a popsicle stick for teh 2 runners and a small piece of scrap wood that holds the runners just the right distance apart to make two wheel ruts in the dirt/gravel/grass.

I haven't had much time to mess with it yet, but will post some pics probably Wednesday evening.

My goal is to have all the grass laid down by this weekend so I can remove the painters tape and clean up the rails really well so I can run trains while finishing up with the less messy parts, like planting trees and putting in roads.


----------



## JeffHurl

Sled for making wheel ruts.


----------



## Raege

Nice and rockin Dire Straits


----------



## JeffHurl

I love Mark Knopfler's guitar style


----------



## JeffHurl

I've been making progress, but it's not to the point where I'm ready to snap any more pictures. I've been making rocks and trees to be used in the areas I'm working on, and have been laying out streets for the village and putting down more grass.

Today's my wife's birthday, so there will be no progress made today, lol. But yesterday evening, I was able to get in some time while she was out with one of her friends. I started to dye a bunch of rocks that will be in the bottom of a stream that snakes through town. They were drying overnight with watered down Elmer's glue. This seals the plaster so the next step (black wash) won't soak into the plaster, but will settle into the nooks and crannies where it will dry and give the rocks more depth and contrast. And I also bent into shape a package of 3"-5" tree armatures from Woodland Scenic. So I'll be in tree making mode at some point later this week.


----------



## JeffHurl

I made some progress on the dairy farm and the coal mine.

























Still a lot of work to do. I haven't had time to put up a fence for a corral.

The coal mine needs a lot of work yet.

And I put in the creek bed.

















A few more pics.


----------



## Magic

Man Jeff it's really coming along nice and looking good.
I really like the very open look, great job.   
Your rock work is also very good, much better than mine.

Magic


----------



## BigEd

Your progress is amazing, and shaming me to start getting my butt into gear…

well done and I like your vision, work and detail! Keep it up!


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## JeffHurl

Magic said:


> Man Jeff it's really coming along nice and looking good.
> I really like the very open look, great job.
> Your rock work is also very good, much better than mine.
> 
> Magic


Thanks! I watched a video on Woodland Scenics web site about how to use their liquid dyes for the rocks. They have excellent tutorials. This was my first attempt. I put all the rocks where I wanted them, and then colored them before laying the grass. Applying the dye is sloppy, so the bottom, right below the cliff face got really dark. But the grass and foliage covers it up.

The rocks and trees have been the most rewarding part of scenery work so far. I also like making gravel roads, but I'm not very good at those.


----------



## JeffHurl

BigEd said:


> Your progress is amazing, and shaming me to start getting my butt into gear…
> 
> well done and I like your vision, work and detail! Keep it up!


 Thanks BigEd!

This has become an obsession.🤓


----------



## SF Gal

I like seeing progress, your layout is coming along. The picture of the mansion, gazebo and covered bridge is cool.
Also you have industrail destinations for your consists does add a lot of interest. The whole rolling hills and valleys make sense as bridges look proper in there surroundings. Keep on chugging!


----------



## JeffHurl

SF Gal said:


> I like seeing progress, your layout is coming along. The picture of the mansion, gazebo and covered bridge is cool.
> Also you have industrail destinations for your consists does add a lot of interest. The whole rolling hills and valleys make sense as bridges look proper in there surroundings. Keep on chugging!


Thanks, Candy!

I made a little progress on the downtown area this morning.


----------



## JeffHurl

Also added some gravel driveways

















I need to put in some landscaping around the houses.

I really like these houses I found on Etsy.
















Really nice details and simple to assemble. There are holes in the base if you want to add an LED.


----------



## Raege

Wow amazing progress and looking great! The layout is really coming to life. Like the dairy farm. The coal mine should be very cool eye candy and operations wise. The pic of your Victorian and town beyond has nice look with the trees mixed in, For your downtown are you going with sidewalks and street lights as well? I’m in the air on planning space for a downtown or not. It’s cool seeing it blended in on other layouts to help me build mine in my minds eye. Thanks for sharing so much eye candy love seeing what’s possible as I plan out my future empire.


----------



## JeffHurl

Raege said:


> Wow amazing progress and looking great! The layout is really coming to life. Like the dairy farm. The coal mine should be very cool eye candy and operations wise. The pic of your Victorian and town beyond has nice look with the trees mixed in, For your downtown are you going with sidewalks and street lights as well? I’m in the air on planning space for a downtown or not. It’s cool seeing it blended in on other layouts to help me build mine in my minds eye. Thanks for sharing so much eye candy love seeing what’s possible as I plan out my future empire.


Thanks!

For me, the difficult part of a down-town area is the transition to another area other than industry. So I decided to tuck both in the area between a sharp curve and a broad curve. So I'm using the tracks as a natural boundary.
I still have a lot of work to do. The committee in my head hadn't reached a decision on the level of detail I will go into for street markings. I don't want it to look cheesy. And I'm not certain I can make the lines look real.

I'll be practicing with some old white-out to see if it's even close. I know WS makes a striping pen but thought I might have something like a china marker to test as well.


----------



## OilValleyRy

Any of those houses have tire swings?


----------



## Raege

JeffHurl said:


> Thanks!
> 
> For me, the difficult part of a down-town area is the transition to another area other than industry. So I decided to tuck both in the area between a sharp curve and a broad curve. So I'm using the tracks as a natural boundary.


I think the tracks make a great natural break. The eye and mind kinda expect to see something different. Keep on trucking brother I need all the ideas I can steal


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> Any of those houses have tire swings?


Not yet. Thanks for the idea!


----------



## Raege

OilValleyRy said:


> Any of those houses have tire swings?





JeffHurl said:


> Not yet. Thanks for the idea!


The man has an eye and mind for detail. Really a simple detail that brings a lot of “real” to the scene when you think about it. Another borrowed/stolen idea for the future.


----------



## BigEd

The committee in my head…

You make me laugh! Good one. I now know why I get nothing done - my committee just veto one another…

Have a great week y’all! 🖖


----------



## JeffHurl

All my voices agree where to put shrubs and small trees.









I think I need to put more shrubs along the tree line behind the houses below. It's a cliff on the far side.









I'm starting to like this building below that I bought second hand at a LHS. The yellow needs to go. But I like the building as the entrance to a mine.


----------



## JeffHurl

Some more shrubbery, and some new perspectives.


----------



## MichaelE

Excellent! I love it. You've done a great job on your scenery and your layout.

It is sometimes difficult to visualize the same finished product that the builder has in his mind from photos until the finished layout is presented.

Good job.


----------



## JeffHurl

MichaelE said:


> Excellent! I love it. You've done a great job on your scenery and your layout.
> 
> It is sometimes difficult to visualize the same finished product that the builder has in his mind from photos until the finished layout is presented.
> 
> Good job.


Thanks, Michael!

It took me several months to iron out the design for the layout. Once I got that nailed down, I was trying to come up with varying terrain while still leaving the track mostly flat. The layout is a big U shape. On the side with the village, there is a 2% incline that rises 1/2" at the southeast section (where the mansion and houses are). I needed to find ways to add hills without them looking out of place. The rest just kind of happened. I had a general idea that I wanted a logging site and a dairy farm since both of those don't have a whole lot of structures, and I wanted a rural feel.

In my head, this was to be an area along the Ohio River, south of Steubenville/Weirton, North of Wheeling, with the panhandle of West Virginia on the East, Ohio on the West.

The train that runs by my house is part of the Ohio Central System that runs between Columbus, Ohio and Mingo Junction, Ohio (south of Steubenville). So this is my fictional area, very similar to Mingo Junction, but with a lot less of a "yard." I wanted spurs to service industry and a depot in the village rather than a large yard with ladders. To me, those are the ugly part of railroads, and I have no desire to replicate that. I'm more into watching the trains run than doing jobs with the trains. So the spurs will allow for jobs without dominating the layout.

I'm really happy with how this is turning out. It's way more detail than I originally imagined, and I find myself spending a lot of time on the little details. So I'm mostly beyond the phase of this build where I see big changes in a short period of time. But I'm finding that I like paying attention to the finer details of the scenery.


----------



## JeffHurl

BTW, I thought I'd pass along some of the knowledge I have gained regarding scenery, at least for N scale.

first, let me say that I'm NOT a fan of pine trees. I'm allergic to their pollen, and also don't like that their needle litter chokes out must vegetation on the ground. So the only conifer style trees and shrubs are in my layout are those that came in the "Fine Leaf Foliage" packages I've been using to do shrubbery. Occasionally, a piece of teh fine leaf foliage looks like a pine tree, so I plant it and move on. But for me, the bulk of my trees are deciduous.

Good stuff:
Almost everything I really like has come from Woodland Scenic:

*Tree Armatures* - There are packages with 3 sizes that fit well in N scale, the largest being a package of trees that are 5" - 7" tall. That's about as big of a tree that looks right on an N scale layout. 7" is 93.3 feet in N scale... I don't see many trees in this neck of the woods taller than 93' The medium size package has trees 3"-5" tall. These are the ones I've used the most. The package of small trees (I think they are 1" - 3" tall). These are great for filling in smaller trees that are landscaping around houses. They are small enough to fit into the yard of a house, or to place in areas that may have "younger" vegetation. The armatures come with a base for each tree, but I don't use the bases. There is a little stub on the bottom of the tree trunk that goes into the plastic base. Rather than use the base, I just poke a hole into the foam board, and "plant" the tree with a dollop of white glue.

*Fine Leaf Foliage* - This is basically a plastic container of tree-like / shrubbery-like / loose shake stuff that appears to be based on something that was living at one point, then fine leaf flock added to it to fill out the tree / shrub body. It comes in a variety of real-life colors This stuff is great for "weedy" type vegetation like briar patches, overgrown shrubs, etc. It is also great for regular shrubbery when the pieces are nicely shaped.

*Clump Foliage* - This appears to be a foam based product that is shredded after being dyed. The pieces are small... small shake pieces, all the way up to chunks that are about the size of a golf ball. You can easily break up larger pieces if you wish. I use a combination of colors to make my deciduous trees... Just bend the armatures referred to above into a tree shape, hit the tips with spray adhesive, and dunk into a container filled with loos clump foliage. Couldn't be simpler. I've made a few hundred trees this way. It might take 2 or 3 evenings to produce 100 trees, if I work on them an hour here, an hour there. I also use this stuff for landscaping bushes... small pieces of the dark green colored stuff about the size of a BB make great bushes up along side buildings. I use larger pieces for larger bushes. But this stuff is a little too dense to make briar patches and other large bushy vegetation... That's what I prefer the Fine Leaf Foliage for... it's not so dense.

*Rock Forms* - I used 4 different rock forms to make a lot of rocks. Woodland Scenic also has liquid dyes for coloring the plaster rocks that you can cast with these rubber forms. I made a lot of rocks. WS has a great video that shows you exactly how to use their earth colored dyes.

Not so good stuff:

*Foliage Clusters - *This is the same stuff that the Clump Foliage is made from, but it comes in very large, very dense pieces. This was a waste of money for me. The "clusters" are not really good for anything other than to be shredded up into smaller pieces and mixed in with the clump foliage to make trees.

*Static Grass* - The good, the bad and the ugly... The good - I made a lot of "tufts" of grass to be used in and around gravel roads. The bad - only 2mm static grass is small enough to be a lawn quality application. Anything longer, and it's basically the length of grasses that you would find on an open prairie... Even a cow pasture would have shorter grasses. So if you want to make a lawn, limit it to 2mm static grass for N scale. 4mm would be OK for an HO scale lawn or an N scale prairie. The Ugly... well.. the "not all that pretty" To be honest... 2mm static grass doesn't look all that much better than regular old foam based turf, which is a LOT cheaper and simpler. I'm happy that I have grass tufts that I made using static grass, but other than that... meh...

*Pre-Made trees* - Very early in my planning stage, I went to a show, and bought a couple packages of WS premade trees. In hind sight, these are the exact same tree armature that comes in tehir packages of armatures I referred to above. Far more economical to just make your own. But if you only need a handful of trees and don't want to build them yourself, have at it.

*Various products based on white glue -* This is all great stuff, but don't buy it when you can make it for a fraction of the cost. It's all just white PVA glue (like Elmer's) in various degrees of being watered down with a small amount of either dish soap or rubbing alcohol to help break the surface tension of the water. This helps it soak into the scenery. For example, to "lock down" grass, gravel roads, ballast, etc. I mix up about a cup or so of this at a time with about 1 part glue to 2 parts water and use a spray bottle to apply.


I hope this helps someone who may be on teh fence about some of these products.


----------



## GNfan

JeffHurl said:


> *Pre-Made trees* - Very early in my planning stage, I went to a show, and bought a couple packages of WS premade trees.


Mine came from modeltrainstuff.com, but same idea. I took one or two out of their plastic domes and quickly discovered the leaves and apples came off far too easy for my needs.


----------



## JeffHurl

I find it a lot easier to make large trees as opposed to small ones. The small ones always come out looking like a ball on top of a stick. So I do tend to look through the packages of "Fine Leaf Foliage" to find small pieces of it that look like a tree. Usually, one $20 package of Fine Leaf Foliage has about a dozen or so pieces that can be used as a tree. And sometimes, there are large pieces that make a good dense briar patch.

A 20' tree is only about 1.5 inches high, and it's difficult to build a cool looking tree that small without it looking like a lollipop. So something about the size of an ornamental tree that's planted in between a road and a sidewalk may only be 3/4" tall.


----------



## OilValleyRy

A look inside JeffHurls mind… 

Harrison Ford: “No time to discuss this with the committee!”

Carrie Fisher: “I am NOT a committee!!!”


----------



## JeffHurl

The committee in my head rarely comes to a unanimous consensus. Although, I have never assigned names to the voices. If I did, one would definitely be Robin Williams. Another would probably be George Carlin... Others would be Jim Neighbors, Don Knotts, Tommy Chong, Sam Kinneson, and probably Joe Piscopo or Andrew Dice Clay.... It's never boring, lol


----------



## JeffHurl

Finally got the track all cleaned and started running trains again.

My next big step is to do the river


----------



## JeffHurl




----------



## SF Gal

What are your plans for the water? I think we all have wonderful ideas to make it real but that surely isn't practical. It is really tough to do water right and make it look like its flowing, moving, etc. Is is murky? Is it mountain clear? What your true notion for what you want to do with the river and how do you plan to achieve what you want to do? I just kind of wing it and it sometimes look okay..._*sigh_*


----------



## pmcgurin

Fabulous. The scenery really makes that great.


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## Raege

Impressive! Look forward to seeing what you do with the river to learn from your experience before I tackle a small stream
please keep the photos and videos coming I appreciate you sharing the journey


----------



## BigGRacing

Well done Jeff ! looks awesome !


----------



## JeffHurl

BigGRacing said:


> Well done Jeff ! looks awesome !


Thanks, Gary! I'm finally to the point where I can run trains. I'm done with teh part of scenery that would require masking off the track to keep it clean. Elmers glue (in a sparay bottle), while great as a scenic cement, is really hard on the track. But a little rubbing alcohol on some scrap pieces from an old T-Shirt wrapped around an ink eraser works really well to clean off the tops of the rails. I just followed my train, and anywhere the sound hiccupped, I cleaned a second or third (or more) times until all the small little cold spots became hot again. I still have one spot that isn't working well. I'll get a stall if moving too slowly. I think I just need to shim a joint to get rid of a low spot where the wheels are coming up just enough to lose contact.

Also, I notive that my upper track is only reading 10.5V in one area, so I'll probably need to run another feeder to that section.

All in all, I'm really happy with the way this is coming together.

When I started building this (after planning it for 6-7 months) last November, I din't think it would take this long. But then, I never dreamed I would get this far into it either. The results are much better than I imagined. And I think this has helped me become a more patient person... Taking my time rather than trying to just get it done. It's definitely a journey and not a destination. I don't think I'll ever feel this is completely finished. But that's OK... in fact, I kind of hope it's never "finished."


----------



## JeffHurl

Raege said:


> Impressive! Look forward to seeing what you do with the river to learn from your experience before I tackle a small stream
> please keep the photos and videos coming I appreciate you sharing the journey


Yeah, I have saved the water for last. My wife pays around with Envirotex quite a bit, so I have thought about trying that. On teh other hand, the guy from Sweeden who puts out a lot of YouTube videos shows how he used toilet paper and white glue.

The committee is still deliberating, lol!

Suffice it to say, this is last because it's the most intimidating... I have a fairly large area to do, about 15" 54"... So small compared to the size of the layout, but it would take a lot of Envirotex, so not sure... I need to watch videos some more. Honestly, the river may wait until next Winter unless I can get it done fairly soon.

Our Oldest daughter is getting married in June, and they have asked me to be the officiant... which I have never done before... and it's my daughter... Good thing I don't mind public speaking, lol.


----------



## JeffHurl

SF Gal said:


> What are your plans for the water? I think we all have wonderful ideas to make it real but that surely isn't practical. It is really tough to do water right and make it look like its flowing, moving, etc. Is is murky? Is it mountain clear? What your true notion for what you want to do with the river and how do you plan to achieve what you want to do? I just kind of wing it and it sometimes look okay..._sigh_


Definitely murky. This is a fictional area along the Ohio River... so very few waves other than from the barge traffic. I'm leaning toward the toilet paper + Elmer's Glue technique, mostly so I can use coffee stir sticks under the TP to put in the wake from the barges. I figure if I slice them in half long-wise, I can situate the half-pipes under teh TP to create the wake, which is usually very symmetrical and the waves keep a "wavelength" and spread out in a triangular fashion a lot like the formation of geese flying.

At least, that's the direction the committee is heading today... I may come across better ideas. And I may have a good 8 months to figure it out because my build window is quickly coming to a close, as pretty soon, I'll be distracted with yard work... I have about 7 acres I need to mow weekly.


----------



## OilValleyRy

Try a small separation section of each method. Scrap plywood or foam in the 12”x12” size. 
I tried the method the guy in Sweden uses. He does fantastic vids. Anyway, it worked out well. The hardest part was blending deep to shallow water. I didn’t add any gloss top coat to my test. 
I’ve got a bottle of… not water effects but the regular water material from woodland scenics to try out. Actually I need it to fix something that went awry. Speaking of that, don’t use polyurethane.


----------



## OilValleyRy

Jesus, 7 acres?! Why aren’t you modeling in G scale? Lol


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> Try a small separation section of each method. Scrap plywood or foam in the 12”x12” size.
> I tried the method the guy in Sweden uses. He does fantastic vids. Anyway, it worked out well. The hardest part was blending deep to shallow water. I didn’t add any gloss top coat to my test.
> I’ve got a bottle of… not water effects but the regular water material from woodland Scenics to try out. Actually I need it to fix something that went awry. Speaking of that, don’t use polyurethane.


I think since this will be the Ohio River, it will be murky enough that I really don't need to worry about depth too much... Pretty much all you see is the surface. I'm intrigued by the possibilities of using dye in something like Envirotex, but I'm also afraid of it seeping through cracks and ending up all over the floor.

I will most certainly be testing my ideas! Thanks for the heads up on polyurethane. I imagine it might yellow over time (or right away, lol).


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> Jesus, 7 acres?! Why aren’t you modeling in G scale? Lol


Haha! That would be fun, but I don't have pockets deep enough for G scale.

We moved out of the burbs once our youngest graduated high school. 1/2 acre pond sits between the road and our house, then we have about 3-4 acres of grass in back, then a stream you can ford to get back into about 5 acres of woods. It's a lot of work mowing, picking up sticks, pond maintenance, etc. When we bought the property, there was a small ranch house up by the road that we were going to raze, but our daughters talked us into fixing it up so they could live there while going to grad school. So we have a guest house. Our youngest is just about to move out, She's in te clinical rotation part of a Physician Assistant program, and she really wants to live in the hipster/trendy parts near downtown Columbus. I prefer to be out in the country. I work in the trendy part, and it's only about a 35 minute commute.

Intel's new $20 billion chip manufacturing facility is going to be built about 5 miles North North West from us. Hoping that doesn't ruin the rural feel. The good news is that the area we are in has building restrictions in place to preserve farm land. Where we live, you cannot subdivide any land into parcels that are less than 10 acres. We had to agree to never rent out our guest house so we could build a second dwelling on the same property. So unless a new building code / law is passed, our little slice of heaven is protected from urban sprawl.


----------



## JeffHurl

Eventually, I want to make some really nicely produced videos with music and choregraphed sounds. But that's another thing to look forward to next Winter.


----------



## OilValleyRy

I’ve been debating whether to ask or not…
Did you keep count of how many trees you planted?


----------



## JeffHurl

Ha! No, I haven't... Maybe I'll count them, lol. A lot


----------



## JeffHurl

OK, I'm going to go on a bit of a rant about static grass. It may be great for larger scales, but for N scale (at least in my opinion), it's NOT worth it.

The smallest static grass is 2mm long. And if the static applicator does it's job, and the grass stands on end, then the grass you are laying down on an N scale layout is 2 feet tall at scale. There aren't many grasses that long in real life except maybe prairie grass.... but certainly not in any lawn, or even a farm pasture. Maybe a crop like wheat, but not many of us model a field of crops.

To my eye, at normal viewing distances, I see no real improvement in the look of static grass as opposed to regular old foam based turf that's been around for decades before static grass became a thing.

For me, the only real benefit of static grass in an N scale setting is to make tufts of weedy grass like you would see in a gravel drive. The scale is still way off, but visually, it fits into N scale scenery OK. And the old school foam based turf doesn't look as good as static grass in that particular application.

Rant off...


----------



## Big Ed

JeffHurl said:


> Finally got the track all cleaned and started running trains again.
> 
> My next big step is to do the river


Nice layout, so quiet too.  
When you moved the chair it almost sounded like a train whistle from an old steam locomotive. Listen close.


----------



## JeffHurl

I would like to put together a better quality video, but just haven't found the time. I may wait until I can get the river done, not sure yet. With Spring right around the corner, my train time will become more limited as I spend more time working in the yard (my lawn, not a rail yard, lol).


----------



## pmcgurin

What you have done here is a beautiful and inspiring thing. I am thinking out a layout, and you have given me a lot to think about, ideas to do it better.


----------



## kilowatt62

Jeff, 
You might want to take a look at “second HO layout’ by Stumpy. Starting around post #188, he gets into pouring the faux water mixer. It’s a great read/view of what he did. Very impressive indeed. I’m sure it’ll get your noggin working on some ideas. 

KW62


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> I’ve been debating whether to ask or not…
> Did you keep count of how many trees you planted?


I took a quick count and came up just st North of 250 trees planted. About 20 of those I made by twisting stranded wire into a tree form. Another 50 or so are from packages of WS Fine Leaf Foliage. 11 we're from 2 different packs of premade small trees. The rest I made from WS tree armatures and Clump Foliage.

I have supplies to make another 50 or so trees that I will use to fill it n some of the sparse areas.

So I'll be up around 300 at some point, maybe more.


----------



## JeffHurl

kilowatt62 said:


> Jeff,
> You might want to take a look at “second HO layout’ by Stumpy. Starting around post #188, he gets into pouring the faux water mixer. It’s a great read/view of what he did. Very impressive indeed. I’m sure it’ll get your noggin working on some ideas.
> 
> KW62


Thanks for the heads up!👍


----------



## OilValleyRy

@JeffHurl 
While my layout is really just at early beginning stage, I’ve done a lot of brainstorming.

Leaks are a big concern, but tarp is cheap! Play on an adage.

My concerns with liquids of any sort is more about it creeping up the banks, or rather absorbent scenery pulling it upward. I’m probably going to use a mixture colloquially known as “goop” to seal the area. It is Durabond 90 joint compound mixed with water and paint to consistency of mashed potatoes. Then smoothed with a spray bottle of water & gloved hand. It dries like concrete.

I am modeling the same navigable system as you, just farther upstream. The Aaleghent varies from deep blue to muddy green depending on sun, weather, and probably camera too. I don’t want a perfectly flat surface, but no waves either. Just implied surface current which is probably easier with liquid.
Another aspect that I think is better with liquid is things like cat tails, half-submerged boulders, fallen tree trunks, culverts, barges, etc. 

I like the toilet paper method, but it doesn’t provide any depth to sink details into.

In my situation,I’ll have a seam in the water. That’d be easier to hide with the TP method. But I have a clever idea I want to try: a coping saw thru the cured “water” with a window glaze filled piece shimmed in with the edges painted to match. So, poured as one piece, cut, & filled.


----------



## JeffHurl

All excellent points, @OilValleyRy . Thanks for giving me some good things to ponder. I hadn't thought about the stuff being absorbed by porous materials. I was planning to coat everything with paintable caulking to waterproof it.


----------



## OilValleyRy

Pardon me, my ipad does crazy things on this forum software, cursor jumps around, text I typed already often disappears when I put the cursor back where it should bd, etc.

Aaleghent(?) was supposed to be Allegheny. As in upstream of the Ohio.


----------



## JeffHurl

Yep, I figured that out. I have a good friend who grew up in Emlenton, PA which is along the Allegheny where I-80 passes over the river. I have gone trout fishing there with his family. Beautiful area.


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> @JeffHurl
> While my layout is really just at early beginning stage, I’ve done a lot of brainstorming.
> 
> In my situation,I’ll have a seam in the water. That’d be easier to hide with the TP method. But I have a clever idea I want to try: a coping saw thru the cured “water” with a window glaze filled piece shimmed in with the edges painted to match. So, poured as one piece, cut, & filled.


I wonder if the saw will cut cleanly enough. I'd be worried that the saw blade might leave the cut too rough, and therefore might obscure the "clearness" of the water when viewed from the side... Kind of like etched glass on an aquarium... would defeat the whole purpose of it being glass is the view if kind of translucent rather than clear.


----------



## vette-kid

kilowatt62 said:


> Jeff,
> You might want to take a look at “second HO layout’ by Stumpy. Starting around post #188, he gets into pouring the faux water mixer. It’s a great read/view of what he did. Very impressive indeed. I’m sure it’ll get your noggin working on some ideas.
> 
> KW62


Looking back at that almost makes me sorry I chose the WS water products. Those waves came out perfect and he didn't even try!

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## JeffHurl

vette-kid said:


> Looking back at that almost makes me sorry I chose the WS water products. Those waves came out perfect and he didn't even try!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Yeah, I'm glad I got pointed to Stumpy's river. It's pretty amazing. The product he used has MEK as a solvent. Methylethylketones are no joke Use in a well ventilated area... preferably after you're done having kids, lol.


----------



## vette-kid

JeffHurl said:


> Yeah, I'm glad I got pointed to Stumpy's river. It's pretty amazing. The product he used has MEK as a solvent. Methylethylketones are no joke Use in a well ventilated area... preferably after you're done having kids, lol.


Well there is that. Mine is not that well ventilated. But I'm already stocked up on the WS stuff anyway. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


----------



## OilValleyRy

JeffHurl said:


> I wonder if the saw will cut cleanly enough. I'd be worried that the saw blade might leave the cut too rough, and therefore might obscure the "clearness" of the water when viewed from the side... Kind of like etched glass on an aquarium... would defeat the whole purpose of it being glass is the view if kind of translucent rather than clear.


My plan is for the river to be a churned muddy greenish color. The cut will be with a very fine coping saw blade, on an angle, 60-45 degrees top to bottom.


----------



## JeffHurl

I spent some time last night running trains, focusing on the spurs that serve the River and the mine areas. Got the tracks all clean, and I'm happy to report that I can back long consists into the spurs without derailments!

I also spent some time tuning up some rolling stock that either needed new wheel sets or completely new trucks. I was able to get 7 of them back into service, which now gives me enough functional rolling stock for the layout to feel more complete.

One of these days, I need to setup a rolling stock test track... Where I can let a piece roll down an incline then onto a flat section so I can gauge which pieces roll the best (least friction), so I can refocus on the ones that might not be derailing but could use a little tuning.


----------



## OilValleyRy

Just out of curiosity, do you upgrade to metal wheels or no?


----------



## JeffHurl

I inherited a bunch of plastic wheels in a train lot I bought last Spring. Not the best, but they appear to be good enough. But I have mostly been just replacing the trucks with new ones from Micro Trains. A lot of the rolling stock I have came from that lot, and they were heavily weathered... unfortunately, there is a lot of paint in places where there shouldn't be paint...

I also have a LOT of older rolling stock with the old Rapido couplers that I have had since the early 90s, and I find it simpler to just replace the whole truck as opposed to try and swap out just a coupler.


----------



## pmcgurin

Back around 2007 I bought all the MTL trucks the local hobby shop had and replaced the trucks with whatever kind of MTL truck they had.. It was easier for the freight cars. At 73 now my eyesight and manual dexterity are not so good, and replacing the whole truck makes sense, just as it did when I was in my 50s.


----------



## JeffHurl

Ok gang... I am down to one last area that needs work.

The Ohio River and the tracks along the piers.

I'm thinking about using Acrylic Gloss Medium for the initial pours. I plan to tint with WS liquid pigment... Raw umber and yellow ocher mix...

I need to practice first. Stay tuned🧐


----------



## JeffHurl

Spitballing some pier ideas.

Some styrene strips I had left over and some scrap planks of wood. I have a tank car without trucks sitting on some scrap pieces of retaining wall for a retention area. What do you all think? The price is right, lol.

















The white area will be the riverbed.


----------



## JeffHurl

The other side....


----------



## SF Gal

JeffHurl said:


> Spitballing some pier ideas. Some styrene strips I had left over and some scrap planks of wood. I have a tank car without trucks sitting on some scrap pieces of retaining wall for a retention area. What do you all think? The price is right, lol.....


The cliff side pier is a bit problematic unless you have a few cranes rolling on pier track.








Founds these on e-bay.... DAPR - N Gauge Model Scenery Building Kit - Vintage Dock Crane

I like the idea of a bustling dock on a layout...you can do some automation with the cranes if your handy!
The oppisite side pier is nice but I would extend the pier to the far side of the rails you have installed so it looks like the track was set in pier concrete. It's coming along nicely. 
The barges are going to be a nice touch. Are you building a few tug barge boats?


----------



## JeffHurl

YES! 🤓

I do need a few cranes to give it credibility. Those ones you found are cool.

I have 2 small barge pushers with 4 barges between them. I also have a water-line 60' tug with one barge.


----------



## JeffHurl

It took me a while to figure out what they call the large pilings along the shore where they moor barges while waiting to be loaded/off loaded. They are called Mooring Dolphins.

I'm going to put some on the Ohio side. You can see a few in that last picture I posted with an empty barge along side.


----------



## JeffHurl

SF Gal said:


> ...I would extend the pier to the far side of the rails you have installed so it looks like the track was set in pier concrete.


Excellent advice! I even have scrap styrene.

Working on it. I'll snap a pic once I have the pieces cut and test fitted.
Thanks for the idea!

im going to ask for this kit for Father's day.









and this one too.


----------



## JeffHurl

Pieces cut and test fit.

















Mooring dolphins in use









I'm going to wait a while to see how I like the concrete idea. How would you do weathered concrete on styrene? I have plenty of acrylic craft paints. My wife has hundreds of bottles that I scan borrow. I'm thinking sandstone mixed with some light gray.

Then some grimey black smudges in heavy traffic areas.


----------



## JeffHurl

Running trains while I figure out what to do with the riverbanks. Which is what I have to do before I pour the river.


----------



## JeffHurl

One more video


----------



## Chops

Love that covered bridge. Lot of depth in this layout.


----------



## Magic

Man Jeff the layout is looking just great, really like the nice openness.
Great work all the way around.  

Magic


----------



## MichaelE

Your layout look fantastic. Your videos would have more visual impact at closer to eye level.


----------



## pmcgurin

The layout is really awesome. Loved the video.


----------



## JeffHurl

I still need to ballast the tracks and work on the river and riverbanks. I'm really having fun running trains.


----------



## pmcgurin

Your fun running trains is a reward for all the beautiful work.


----------



## Andreash

Excellent work….☕🍩


----------



## Raege

Looks great good sir. Nice job for sure deserve some operating time to enjoy your hard work. Looking forward to seeing the river come alive with the barge traffic.


----------



## SF Gal

I also want to send you word of encouragment, you really have engineered a cool layout and lots of room for future projects. It is coming along nicely. Thanks for your continued sharing of your work. I keep getting flashbacks of some of my old N scale layout as some of the buildings you are using are ones I had on my old N scale layout! Real "Blast from my past!" stuff.... 😄


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> Any of those houses have tire swings?


It took me a while to get to it.

Thanks for the idea!👍


----------



## OilValleyRy

Nice! A little bit of black paint maybe lol But very cool to see in N scale.


----------



## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> Nice! A little bit of black paint maybe lol But very cool to see in N scale.


It's so small you can't tell it's brass.


----------



## JeffHurl

I finally got around to painting the styrene to look like worn cement. I like the way it looks!

Thanks, @SF Gal for the idea! I now have a concrete loading dock.


----------



## JeffHurl

Cement pads


----------



## Stumpy

Nice work Jeff!

Great layout.


----------



## JeffHurl

I have made very little progress over the past month or so. Warmer weather means yard work. Even with a 61" mowing deck on a zero-turn that can fly, it takes me about 4 hours to mow every week. And we are about 2 weeks away from a road trip from Ohio to Savannah , GA for our oldest daughter's wedding.

I have started to ballast, but haven't really made a whole lot of progress there either. My wife suggested that I use one of those plastic bottles that comes in a Ritt Dye tie-dying kit. I opened up the nozzle to about 1/10 of an inch, which is just about perfect for dispensing WS fine ballast.






Hopefully, the blood blister is gone by the wedding, lol.


----------



## OilValleyRy

I always just used a metal spoon to ladle ballast, roughly distribute it running a finger tip along, then using same metal spoon to lightly tap the top of the rail which makes any ballast on top of the ties to jump into the ballast filled voids. 
But I’ve only done that in HO, not sure it’d work as well in N?

And I know the feeling. I’ve got a self-propelled/push mower. Takes me a couple hours to mow & trim. But this year it seems I need to mow twice as often as years past. I can’t complain though, I enjoy it, get exercise, change the pattern each time, and sometimes experiment with new patterns (the striping lines). Besides the 4 main directions, I tried a Chevron pattern. Didn’t care for it. Considered trying a spiral, but I’ve got a big grove of trees as an obstacle.


----------



## JeffHurl

My favorite part of mowing is when a flock of Purple Martins start zooming around me trying to catch all the bugs I stir up. They are fun to watch... very acrobatic. Every now and then, I actually have to duck to miss one as it darts past my head.

This bottle with nozzle seems to work great for N scale ballast. I have a paint brush I use to "tamp" and spread the ballast, then use the handle of the paint brush to tap on the tracks to help the ballast settle before soaking with glue/water/alcohol mixture. I'm using a small irrigation bottle to apply the glue. Gives me plenty of mixture in a delivery vessel that allows me to gently let the mixture seep into the ballast so it doesn't disturb the surface.


----------



## Magic

I lay ballast much the same as Jeff does but one difference.
I use a fine spray of alcohol to wet the ballast first, helps hold it in place 
and it seems to dry faster.

The best part of mowing my lawn is watching the landscapers drive up
whilst I sip a cool adult beverage.  

Magic


----------



## JeffHurl

Finally got my father's day present. It's a waterfront Cannery kit from Model Tech Studios.

First impressions are good. Very sturdy laser cut wood. The directions are ok, although not really very clear. It takes some assuming, but that's OK.


----------



## JeffHurl

Pics


----------



## Chaostrain

JeffHurl said:


> Pics
> View attachment 584972
> View attachment 584973
> View attachment 584974
> View attachment 584975
> View attachment 584976
> View attachment 584977


That looks like fun. I'm looking forward to seeing the final results.


----------



## Steve Rothstein

That does look like a nice kit and addition to a layout.


----------



## JeffHurl

I have started to put things together. It's a nice kit. The wood is thick and quite sturdy. The laser cuts are precise. 

I have confidence in build strength. The pre-cut windows and doors would be better if they were peel-off self-adhesive.

But that s ok... Just takes a little longer to glue things.


----------



## Chops

I have a beautiful Civic Hall. Hardly used.


----------



## JeffHurl

Updated pics of the progress on this waterfront kit. I still need to paint the last detail pieces, then do a heavy weathering job so it looks old.

This was a fun kit to build, but it was not simple. The instructions left a little to be desired, and some of the parts like pieces of 1/8" wood and some of the cast metal pieces were HO size even though I ordered the N scale version. But at the end of the day, this is a pretty darn cool looking kit. I'm happy with it. I used spare decals from other kits. The "decals" that came with the kit are just poorly printed "signs" on regular old paper. I could make nicer ones with my 7 year old ink jet printer. I may add some more decals before weathering.


----------



## Raege

Nice job Looks real nice. Will look nice on the waters edge


----------



## JeffHurl

Raege said:


> Nice job Looks real nice. Will look nice on the waters edge


Thanks!

I'm in the process of figuring out how to fabricate a couple dockside loading cranes to get goods from the pier level up to the track level.


----------



## JeffHurl

Here is frankencrane... I had enough stuff to scratch-build 2 of these. Needs a little paint, and an upright...


----------



## JeffHurl

Uprights and a base added. Also added blocks for the rigging. Not sure I like the cabin. But it's supposed to look old.


----------



## JeffHurl

I started to work on the wharf. I'm calling it a wharf because it will support 2 buildings that service barge traffic.

I started out with a piece of sturdy styrene glued to the top of a spare piece of 1/2" foam board. I let the styrene overhang the foam so it will look like a riverside pier.

I made a few hundred scale size timbers to build the decking of the wharf, then stained them various colors of wood, from yellowish to heavy creosote.

The pilings are from Model Tech Studios, and came with the kit I built that you can see in the photos. You can also see all the timbers I stained in the plastic cup.










I think the effort is worth it!

Here is the wharf in place with both buildings. The red building is the kit from Model Tech Studios. I don't think I can wait for cold weather... I've got the fever, lol


----------



## SF Gal

We had some humid days here and it got me working on my layout backdrops and a Christmas set up so I know that urge to continue to work on that "VISION." I like the wharf timbers, they came with the kit too?


----------



## JeffHurl

Thanks, @SF Gal
I made the timbers by slicing off 1/32" strips from a sheet of basswood that is 1/32" thick. I made around 300 individual boards in about an hour with a simple slicing jig. Then I stained them with water based dyes, starting with light colors and getting darker with each batch.

I let all that dry overnight and had an hour or so to tinker, so I figured why not? Start laying decking! It took me a while to get a routine going. The next session should make significant progress.


----------



## Magic

It just keeps getting better Jeff.  

Magic


----------



## Raege

Looking good. Love a water front scene gonna be sweet when ya finish it up.


----------



## OilValleyRy

Low tide and visible barnacle lines would be pretty cool looking. But I seem to recall I mentioned that before? Not sure if I’m getting old, or just need more coffee today.


----------



## Raege

OilValleyRy said:


> Not sure if I’m getting old, or just need more coffee today.


For me it’s both old and low coffee % flowing


----------



## JeffHurl

I saw a meme that said: That wasn't a yawn, it was a silent scream for coffee...

@OilValleyRy I like the idea, but this is a riverfront along the Ohio, so no tides to speak of. If I was doing a saltwater port, I absolutely would do a low tide scene!


----------



## JeffHurl

I laid some more timbers last evening. I can get down a couple inches before my fingertips are coated with CA glue and I have to go get some Acetone to clean my fingertips, lol.

A little known (and lesser cared for) fact: a coating of CA glue prevents your finger from working on your phone's touch screen. I had to clean my fingertips before I could snap a picture, LOL!


----------



## JeffHurl

More progress. I will need to make more timbers. I've used a little less than half of what I made initially


----------



## Raege

Digging the color of the wharf. Going to be fun to give it some traffic wear and really bring the scene to life. Hope the sawmills blade is sharp


----------



## JeffHurl

More progress on the decking, and I painted the pilings.


----------



## SF Gal

The details are nice, getting a little lost on the marble work top. Suggesting white paper under models when photographing. From what I can see, looks good! 🧐


----------



## EBrown

That’s incredible work, 10/10


----------



## JeffHurl

Pier is complete. Weathering courtesy of some old Clinique makeup my wife had stashed away from like 20 years ago. Set it with a few coats of Dead Flat clear coat.

I'm happy with it!


----------



## Raege

Jeff great looking scene. Pretty cool thinking to use old makeup to weather it up! Your middle name McGuyver?


----------



## Magic

Jeff that came out super nice, great work.   

Magic


----------



## BigGRacing

Turned out perfectly Jeff, well done!


----------



## OilValleyRy

Looks so sweet I should get checked for diabetes.


----------



## JeffHurl

Some pictures with unique perspectives.


----------



## OilValleyRy

That town has really sprung up! I like it.
That farm has me craving burger king. Although those are dairy cows I imagine they flame-grill just as well.
It’s not often one can say “yeah, someone said my layout made them hungry.”


----------



## pmcgurin

OilValleyRy said:


> That town has really sprung up! I like it.
> That farm has me craving burger king. Although those are dairy cows I imagine they flame-grill just as well.
> It’s not often one can say “yeah, someone said my layout made them hungry.”


You made me think of a nice, juicy Whataburger. Like the one on Garden Street in Pensacola. The one where I took a date once, and we ordered cokes. I ordered a large one and the girl brought what looked like a bucket full of coke. 

The terain is indeed coming along. Really beautiful job. Made me wonder what the people in those houses think when the freight rumbles by at 1:00 AM.


----------



## Raege

Nice shots! Like your Main Street a lot and seeing the cows from above makes me want to model a certain scene from movie Top Secret 🤫


----------



## Magic

Looking good Jeff.  
Some nice original scenes.

Magic


----------



## BigGRacing

Beautiful work and shots Jeff! You’re an inspiration to us amateurs.


----------



## SF Gal

JeffHurl said:


> ...Weathering courtesy of some old Clinique makeup my wife had stashed away from like 20 years ago...


I have been using my old makeup weathering scenery after I saw the prices they were charging for weathering paints and stains.
The dollar store makeup is much cheaper if you do not have a wife or girl friend resourse.
I really like the pier, buildings, and the tugboat with barge.
The town is deserted for some reason...though I know people and vehicles are not cheap...they are crazy expensive if painted. 
Almost worth buying a printer and making people and vehicles yourself!!! 
The scenery is coming along nicely, can't wait to see what you do with the river!!!
You almost have to not do the river until you are sure your done populating the river with various scenes.
What's you take on the process of finalizing the river?


----------



## JeffHurl

You nailed, it, SF Gal.

I've been putting off the "pour" of the water until I am happy with everything else that may affect the pour, or that may be affected by the pour.

I have a couple pieces of trim installed to make a temporary dam at each end. Once I'm happy with the placement of the pier, mooring dolphins, etc., I will apply a thin coat (or 2) of paintable caulking to waterproof the surface so when I do pour the material for the water, it doesn't seep through the cracks. Then, I'll paint the river, with darker colors near the middle. I also need to paint teh bridge piers, and add a lot of "edge of a river" vegetation. 

I'm leaning toward acrylic gloss medium for the water... probably about 1/8" deep. As it starts to set, I will place whatever boats & barges will be in the scene, so they "sink" into the water a bit. Once that dries, I will probably use some acrylic gel medium for the water effects like wakes and ripples.

I have all Winter to figure it out, but that's where my head is at the moment. I'm open to all suggestions, lol!


----------



## GTW son

Well....yours beats the hell outta my plain Jane door with track nailed to it.
Really like what you've done.
Like you mention winter is coming so will see what I can pull off in the scenery department.


----------



## EBrown

JeffHurl said:


> You nailed, it, SF Gal.
> 
> I've been putting off the "pour" of the water until I am happy with everything else that may affect the pour, or that may be affected by the pour.
> 
> I have a couple pieces of trim installed to make a temporary dam at each end. Once I'm happy with the placement of the pier, mooring dolphins, etc., I will apply a thin coat (or 2) of paintable caulking to waterproof the surface so when I do pour the material for the water, it doesn't seep through the cracks. Then, I'll paint the river, with darker colors near the middle. I also need to paint teh bridge piers, and add a lot of "edge of a river" vegetation.
> 
> I'm leaning toward acrylic gloss medium for the water... probably about 1/8" deep. As it starts to set, I will place whatever boats & barges will be in the scene, so they "sink" into the water a bit. Once that dries, I will probably use some acrylic gel medium for the water effects like wakes and ripples.
> 
> I have all Winter to figure it out, but that's where my head is at the moment. I'm open to all suggestions, lol!


I definitely want to see how you do the water, I will have a lot of water in my layout to work, and it would be nice to see the progress "in real time" so I know what to expect.

This layout is looking gorgeous Jeff, wonderful work.


----------



## JeffHurl

I finished waterproofing last weekend, so I spent some time putting down a coat of paint.

I think it may be too dark. What do you all think?


----------



## Steve Rothstein

That looks a lot like the Schuylkill River in Philly, especially after a good rain storm has stirred up the silt. I would imagine the Allegheny and Ohio Rivers (I forgot exactly where you were modeling) are not that different.


----------



## Raege

+1 on a muddy stirred up river color wise. One of things I wonder about is the transition /fading of colors sides to center. How much will remain in a sharp enough focus to catch the eye at distance. Awesome to see pics of the steps to learn along before I do a pour eventually. One spot caught my eye that my mind saw old faded path across.I know everyone sees something different in a cloud 😀
Its going to be an awesome river scene love the width of it great scaled appearance


----------



## OilValleyRy

Another +1 on the muddy river look from me. 
I’m not sure how clearly you’ll see all that in the end, considering glare and whatever else. 
You may have done the transition between colors that way intentionally… with streaky brush mark kind of look? I’d try for a more feathered aka blended transition, just in case it’s very noticeable in the end (and not intentional).

I’ve never done water… not really, not like a river. So I too am looking forward to seeing how it goes.


----------



## JeffHurl

Thanks for the feedback. I think I like the tone of the edges better than the center... It's too dark for my liking. I need to do better job of blending too.

I need a larger pallet and blend on the pallet rather than on the scene. Maybe a paper sack torn into a few large pieces to get the dry brush effect.

I'll try another round next weekend.


----------



## Raege

JeffHurl said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I think I like the tone of the edges better than the center... It's too dark for my liking. I need to do better job of blending too.
> 
> I need a larger pallet and blend on the pallet rather than on the scene. Maybe a paper sack torn into a few large pieces to get the dry brush effect.
> 
> I'll try another round next weekend.


I remember you used a foundation makeup before to weather and it struck me with a few different tones poured in lines and a couple foam brushes would get a nice blended even coat to lock it down ?


----------



## Steve on Cattail Creek

Steve Rothstein said:


> That looks a lot like the Schuylkill River in Philly, especially after a good rain storm has stirred up the silt. I would imagine the Allegheny and Ohio Rivers (I forgot exactly where you were modeling) are not that different.


Well, depending on the era depicted, if you're going for the Schulykill River look, you may need to set it on fire at some point!  

https://www.nytimes.com/1892/11/02/...one-life-lost-two-men-badly-burned-and-a.html


----------



## OilValleyRy

Not sure what kind of paint & how much but, white paper/foam plate? Paper cup? Plastic dixie cup? I prefer white paper vs foam or plastic. Paper works with everything and has tooth. But if it’s water based paint, plastic dixie cups probably the way to go.


----------



## pmcgurin

Bodacious detail. A masterpiece.


----------



## JeffHurl

It's just such a big area, and I've been mixing paints to get the color tone I'm looking for. So I'm really just experimenting right now. The first attempt was too tan. Then I over-compensated. I have a whole mis-tint gallon of paint than looks like the color of mud, and I always over-estimate how dark it stays when adding lighter colors into the mix.

So it's hard to 1) get the right color, and 2) get it in sufficient quantity to do the whole scene. I'm used to "counting drops" when mixing paint, but in this application, I'm mixing much larger quantities.


----------



## JeffHurl

Raege said:


> I remember you used a foundation makeup before to weather and it struck me with a few different tones poured in lines and a couple foam brushes would get a nice blended even coat to lock it down ?


I like your idea about pouring a few different tones, then blending them. Darkest in the middle and getting lighter toward the shore lines.


----------



## JeffHurl

I have been using an old scrap sheet of styrene as a pallet for mixing paints, but for this I decided to use an old spray paint lid turned upside down. I put some of my mis-tint in there, then added lighter colors. I took notes, but I wouldn't be able to reproduce the exact mix again. I could get close, but not as precise as counting drops as I mix.


----------



## kilowatt62

I wouldnt worry to much about blending shades from edge to center. Due to the fact that the Ohio river is straight down or steep banked all through PA, & OH. Beyond that, I don't know the banks. 
I grew up 2 & a 1/2 stone throws from where the confluence of the Allegheny & Monongahela rivers into the Ohio is. Murky brownish green everywhere.


----------



## JeffHurl

Yeah, I think the key is greenish browns. The brown color I got on the cheap is more based on red. It just doesn't look like water. I'm going to start over by visiting Lowes and getting a bunch of color sheets.


----------



## Steve on Cattail Creek

JeffHurl said:


> Yeah, I think the key is greenish browns. The brown color I got on the cheap is more based on red. It just doesn't look like water. I'm going to start over by visiting Lowes and getting a bunch of color sheets.


Jeff, I'm assuming you're planning on topping the paint with a water layer of some sort. If so, you may already be well positioned, at least based on the videos I've viewed in which I initially thought, "Those bottom colors are _way_ too vivid!", only to have to eat my words (well, thoughts!) when the final result turned out suitably muted. I suspect it would be tough for you to attempt a full field test (and difficult to remedy if you're unsatisfied with the result!), but if there's a small section you could test it on, I suspect you might be surprised how close the final result might come to your original vision. Good luck in any event!


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## kilowatt62

Maybe look through some threads here on water/ rivers/ streams/ etc.
I recall Stumpy did a nice one a while back.


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## JeffHurl

The biggest issue I have is finding that perfect color. I'm pretty sure my issue is that I'm starting with a brown that has too much red in it. It would be OK if I wanted a rain swollen river with a lot of silt. But even the big murky rivers like the Ohio reflect the colors of the scenery, so blues, greens and browns. Obviously, brown has some red in it, but what I have to start with must have more red than I need.

I'm going to stop by a Lowes today and pickup some paint color sheets and see if I can find a better starting point.

Currently, I am leaning toward Acrylic Gloss Medium for the top "pour."

Regarding paint... I do have some of teh earth color Woodland Scenic liquid dyes. Raw Umber may be a good starting point, but even that has reddish overtones.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

JeffHurl said:


> The biggest issue I have is finding that perfect color. I'm pretty sure my issue is that I'm starting with a brown that has too much red in it. It would be OK if I wanted a rain swollen river with a lot of silt. But even the big murky rivers like the Ohio reflect the colors of the scenery, so blues, greens and browns. Obviously, brown has some red in it, but what I have to start with must have more red than I need.


Fair points, Jeff, and far be it for me to try to second guess your artistic and esthetic choices. All I'm saying is that the water overlay, especially if tinted a bit, will largely obscure the base colors, and a lot of the "reflect the scenery" burden can and will be carried by that top coat. At least, that's my takeaway from viewing others' videos of the process (I've only done one small "water feature" so far, and that one just used a sheet of acrylic I had on hand as the overlay, rather than the more expensive pour-and-contour stuff!). Good luck in any event, and post more pics of the results!


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## OilValleyRy

It might be easier and cheaper to use those acrylic craft paints for the color matching and ratio. So for example you mix up in cups 2 or 3 mixes and settle on one that has a lot of pale green, a bit less tan, and a bit of blue (just using example colors), and once you have the color mix you want… Make your own swatch on a piece of styrene or something and have them color match it your swatch instead or trying to combine “factory” swatches.

Just a thought. Minimal investment until you get the shade you want. Then go buy a quart/gallon in that exact color you desire.


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## JeffHurl

I have been looking online at all the colors Sherwin Willaims offers. I stopped by Lowes over lunch and picked up a bunch of color cards (not sure what you call them. Later this evening, I'm going to pull up an image of the ohio river with the color I'm after, and will see which ones come closest to the water colors I'm looking for.

The "top coat" is going to be Acrylic Gloss Medium, which will be crystal clear when fully cured. I may add a little raw umber pigment to give it just a hint of brown.

On top of that, I will use acrylic gloss gel to give the surface some waves, wakes and ripples. Or, I thought I might use a hair blow-dryer to create ripples on the surface by using teh blow drier to simulate wind... not sure if that will work.

Obviously, I;m going to test the top coat process, but for painting the riverbed, I'm using the actual scene as a playground since it's simple to start over with paint.


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## JeffHurl

Second attempt. Perhaps a little more brown?

















I think it's better than the dark brown of the first try.


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## JeffHurl

Added some green reflection of the trees.

I'll stare at it for a bit and give it some thought. In the meantime, please offer any advice you may have. Thanks!


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

Well, maybe it's just me, but that looks a bit too sky blue and light for an urban industrial scene. I think I'd go for a much darker, much more murky brown tone, though I do like your greenish tree reflection tinge. I still think adding a darkish tint to the final surface 'water' coat will tone down everything in the base coloring below, so you may be fine with what you have. Without a lot of prior experience, or an area to experiment in, it's hard to predict, but as I said before, a lot of projects posted on-line have surprised me with the final result, so . . .


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## Raege

Are you going to put any tint to the top coat or straight clear? Its on my to do list when I get around to pouting the diorama creek an pond. I will eventually test two top pours one a tad dirty then a clear in dappled spots to reflect a bit. Not sure if a fine ground mica powder would give it a shimmer in this spots. /ramble off 
In regards to needing more brown if straight clear coat maybe a bit o brown even just a brown wash maybe 🤔 that’s personal preference on what CT river looks like near me. Either way will be looking awesome


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## OilValleyRy

I think it needs a bit of brown, or even a dark blue or kiss of black. Are you using any photos to color match? I ask because the Allegheny upriver from where you model is usually either a muddy green color when things are churned up, or a deep blue/black. It might be different upriver due to a variety of factors (industry, depth, traffic).

As for the reflection of the trees in the water, I would expect the top coat being very glossy would handle that in true reflective fashion, whereas painted reflections will not follow the eye and might look strange when seen from a 45, 60 etc degree angle.


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## GTW son

Could we just say there's a water purification plant a few hundred feet up the river....


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## Steve Rothstein

I think river water tends to be more green and brown than blue. Blue is usually for deep water, which is why the military uses the expression blue water Navy to differentiate the large fleets from the river and coastal patrol boats.


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## BigGRacing

Whether or not you add more blue, your layout is looking awesome Jeff!


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## JeffHurl

Thanks for the feedback guys!

It's funny... this color is from Sherwin Williams' "green" color family, but it looks more sky blue to me too.

I started with Sherwin Williams "Underseas" which looks a lot different on my computer screen than it does in real life.

I tend to over-compensate, and my first attempt was too brown, so... here I am, lol.

I'll stop by Lowes on the way home today and pick up a sample of SW 7746 "rushing river" which looks much more neutral than the green/blue that's there now.

Once I find a color I like, I'll test the top coat. I'm unsure if I'll tint the top coat... If I do, it will be a subtle raw umber... just enough to make it a little translucent.

Also... I have access to hundreds of acrylic craft paints. My wife, and her mother, both have been accumulating craft paints for decades. Unfortunately, crafting doesn't usually involve painting things a murky water color. My problem is I have zero clue if I should add black or brown when I want to slightly darken the mix (or shold I add a bit of deep red to a slightly green color to have it become more brownish?). In what you see, I added a "wrought iron" to the Sherwin Williams "underseas" color since the wrought iron color has a greenish undertone to it. I also tried black, but adding black seemed to make the color more of a slate green color.

So... my feeble mind assumes that if I can start with a couple "store bought" colors, I don't have to try to mix my own and get "lucky." My first attempt was mixing my own from stuff I had on hand, and I don't have the patience to try to recreate that color, but slightly different. It would be completely trial and error. And in my experience, I error as frequently as I try.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

Jeff, don't worry about mixing paints and colors (assuming all are the same type or at least compatible) -- just use small amounts and experiment on your palate until it looks close, then apply dabs on the bottom and let it dry. You already have at least a couple of layers of paint on the river bottom, so a few more dabs will not hurt, since they will all be covered by the final undercoat anyway.

I am profoundly _not_ the artistic type, yet I've found I can pretty well noodle my way through mixing and matching colors at need. The most recent instance was the background color on a graffiti panel my artistic son had to redo to add his newly-arrived son's name. The original panels were also a mix, which at the time I thought ended up a bit too brown but which I now had to try to match using different paints. After some fiddling, I was satisfied with the match:









So, I'd say just dive in and experiment -- the worst you can do is waste a few dabs of paint!


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## JeffHurl

OK, well... So far, the test results have proven nothing except that I am impatient, LOL!

Friday evening, after work, I assembled a small reservoir to test my paint color with an actual poor of top-coat.

I used a small piece of scrap foam board, boxing in a small area to paint and into which, I can pour 1/8" of my top coat.

For the top-coat, I started with Acrylic Gloss Medium (Liquitex brand) that I got from Hobby Lobby. It was about $25 for a quart. I needed 2 quarts because the river is 17.5" wide on average, 54" long, and the pour wants to be 1/8" deep. So, 17.5" x 54" x 0.125" = 118.125 square inches. 118 square inches is right at 1/2 gallon, so 2 quarts.

Doing the math, I determined I needed 4 ounces of top-coat for the test reservoir. I also wanted the test pour to have some murkiness, so I added 3/8 of a teaspoon of Raw Umber liquid dye to the 4 ounces. This way, if the test was too dark, or too light, I could probably use some good old Kentucky Windage to make a final adjustment.

Here is a picture of the painted test piece









Immediately after pour" 4oz of Acrylic Gloss Medium with 3/8 teaspoon of Woodland Scenic Raw Umber liquid dye. The gloss medium is milky white in the bottle, but dries clear and is resistant to shrinking and glazing. I'm not sure about that white area... I think it was just poorly mixed. I was using a lid form an old spray paint can as a container to mix the test pour, and there may have been some of teh medium that didn't get mixed well, as I was just mixing with a popsicle stick. Either that, or the "paintable caulking" hadn't fully cured? Either way, the test is really for the colors... between teh riverbed being a little too blue, and the dye added to the topcoat.











This picture is after about 14 hours. At this point, the top coat was still really wet... Even after 14 hours, I could have poured most of it out... But I do like they way the raw umber in the topcoat is somewhat obscuring the color below. Although... at this point, I believe the color is still "milky white" that will clear as it continues to cure.










This morning, after setting for 36 hours (sorry. I didn't take a pic) and it is now just tacky to the touch. I believe it is still a bit "milky" but it could just be the dye at this point. I wish I would have snapped a pic, because the "murkiness" is really beginning to show, as the whole top coat becomes less opaque and more translucent.

I'll get more pics this evening, which will be right around the 48 hour mark.

If it stays as murky as it is right now, I'll want to ease off a bit on the final raw umber mix.

As I said, this is really testing my patience as much as it is testing the technique, lol!


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## EBrown

JeffHurl said:


> OK, well... So far, the test results have proven nothing except that I am impatient, LOL!
> 
> ...
> 
> As I said, this is really testing my patience as much as it is testing the technique, lol!


I'm in the exact same boat, waiting for paint (etc.) to dry is my LEAST favorite part lol


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

EBrown said:


> I'm in the exact same boat, waiting for paint (etc.) to dry is my LEAST favorite part lol


Well, there's a reason that "watching paint dry" is a cliche and metaphor for engaging in any boredom-inducing activity! 😉 

But, to your project: first, may I assume you painted the bottom of the test piece with the same colors you've been using/plan to use on the river bottom? If so, I still think the bottom base colors are a bit too blue and a bit too light for a suitably murky final river coloring. Perhaps adding more colorant to the pour would do it, but based on your experiment I think the more prudent route would be to darken the bottom tone, and tilt a bit more toward brown. Of course, photos seldom catch the reality of coloring, especially when the object is somewhat translucent, and your desired end-point may differ significantly from mine, so it's a classic YMMV . . .


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## JeffHurl

I appreciate the advice, Steve! I devised this test, hoping that a 1:32 mix of raw umber would subdue the color. I just have a hard time waiting 3 days for the results!!!!

I chose to start with a 1:32 mix, as Woodland Scenics uses a 1:32 mixture for a black wash... I was thinking a similar mix of raw umber would give me a starting point that is, hopefully, "close enough" to desired result. If not, I will need to evaluate if I re-paint the riverbed, or tweak the murkiness a bit and try again.

The mixture, as seen in the pics, is still highly affected by the milky white color of teh medium, which is supposed to cure clear, leaving just the raw umber suspended in it. My gut it this juncture, is that I used too much liquid dye... Only another day will tell... I need to let the "milky white" give way to a (hopefully translucent) dirt color as it continues to cure.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

JeffHurl said:


> I appreciate the advice, Steve! I devised this test, hoping that a 1:32 mix of raw umber would subdue the color. I just have a hard time waiting 3 days for the results!!!!
> 
> I chose to start with a 1:32 mix, as Woodland Scenics uses a 1:32 mixture for a black wash... I was thinking a similar mix of raw umber would give me a starting point that is, hopefully, "close enough" to desired result. If not, I will need to evaluate if I re-paint the riverbed, or tweak the murkiness a bit and try again.
> 
> The mixture, as seen in the pics, is still highly affected by the milky white color of teh medium, which is supposed to cure clear, leaving just the raw umber suspended in it. My gut it this juncture, is that I used too much liquid dye... Only another day will tell... I need to let the "milky white" give way to a (hopefully translucent) dirt color as it continues to cure.


Fair enough, Jeff. Most of the videos I've seen have thoroughly cured the pour before displaying the results, so perhaps the fully cured test bed will darken significantly and bring it more into the desired tone range. Maybe while you wait, you can spend some time setting up a melody on your layout?


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## JeffHurl

I wonder if you could "score" the top of the rail, and get different musical tones based on the frequency of the scoring. Kind of like having the rhythm guitar being played by the wheels going over different "rumble strips." May need to be battery operated train though.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

JeffHurl said:


> I wonder if you could "score" the top of the rail, and get different musical tones based on the frequency of the scoring. Kind of like having the rhythm guitar being played by the wheels going over different "rumble strips." May need to be battery operated train though.


Jeez, Jeff, I struggle with getting the trains to run reliably on my old-style tubular track under the _best_ of circumstances, without _deliberately_ damaging the track! Maybe very short versions of clip-on accessory activating strips, but without the insulation? Hmmm . . .


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## JeffHurl




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## Steve on Cattail Creek

Hmm . . . I'm thinking smallish diameter copper wire, hammered down into oval or semi-circular shape, clipped into 1/2 inch segments and bent to grip around the top of the track. Then, all you'd have to do is work out the spacing . . . and, of course, tediously clip _hundreds_ of them over the top of one of the rails. You would likely only be able to run a single engine (maybe a trolley?), since with a longer consist you'd get the same tune playing on an echoing delay as each set of wheels traversed the 'clips'. I may experiment on my simple holiday layout to see if I can get a tone . . .


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## JeffHurl

Ok, here is a picture at 47 hours.

It's hard now. I can flick it with my fingernail pretty hard without leaving much of a mark.

I'll check it again in the morning to be sure, but if it stays this dark I'll back off on the dye from 1:32 so something like 1:48 or 1:56.

The blue line is interesting. When I first saw it, I thought perhaps the medium had leached some color out of the dried paint from up on the banks, but it's just a low spot that runs along 3 of the sides. My wife picked it up when it was barely still a liquid, and tilted it. The result was a partial tear that now allows an unobscured view of the tint from the painted bottom.

So... Basically, the 1:32 mix, as tested, is quite opaque.

















The color is almost perfect, which is a subdued raw umber


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

JeffHurl said:


> Ok, here is a picture at 47 hours.
> 
> The color is almost perfect, which is a subdued raw umber


Wow, Jeff, I agree -- it's pretty much the exact brownish-green color I associate with urban waterways. Just keep your wife away from the layout when you pour . . . though I suspect she might find the whole layout a bit harder to pick up!


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## JeffHurl

I'm tempted to test again. It'll set me back a week or so, but you know what they say.. measure twice cut once.


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## Steve Rothstein

JeffHurl said:


> I'm tempted to test again. It'll set me back a week or so, but you know what they say.. measure twice cut once.


I think I would go with another old saying, Jeff. Quit while you are ahead. I like the looks of this test.


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## Raege

That looks purty darn good!


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## OilValleyRy

Overall I think it looks good. I agree on less dye. That blue line is weird. Caused by a low spot you say? Looks kinda like color separation, but won’t dispute your conclusion. You’ve got a better view than we do.

Thanks for the calculation of area coverage @ 1/8th thickness per quart needed.
I’ll be….. Starting the necessary re-fi paperwork tomorrow. Lol


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## JeffHurl

That blue line... at first I thought the gloss medium had leached color out of the paint I had laid and let cure before doing the pour, especially up on top of the caulking, like the riverbank. But it's definately a ravine around the perimeter.

Several times over the 2-day cure, either I or my my wife would pick up the piece and mess with it a bit. We both tilted it to one side or another to see how thick and gooey it had become over time. At one point (probably 24 hours into it), my wife (a bottle of wine in her belly) tilted it way too much, and the center portion pulled away from the portion that was grabbing ahold of the edges. Then, she over-compensated and tilted the other direction.  So I believe the "fissure" never really healed itself, and the blue is my paint job showing through a really thin part with not much dye in it. I can see and feel the ravine in the topcoat. Needless to say, I do not want to repeat that effect, LOL!

BTW, I damned the torpedoes and have gone full speed ahead with a final pour... reduced the mix to 1:48 (and I erred on the thin side). I put 1.75 teaspoons in each quart (each quart was now only 30 ounces, as I used 2 ounces from each to do the test) to yield 1:48 mixture (again, I erred on the thin side). So really, each mixture is probably closer to 1:45.

Pictures after the pour at 21:30 yesterday. Still milky white, obviously.



















I won't be home again until pretty late this evening, so I'll be able to post pictures later this evening at the 24-hour mark.


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## OilValleyRy

JeffHurl said:


> That blue line... at first I thought the gloss medium had leached color out of the paint I had laid and let cure before doing the pour, especially up on top of the caulking, like the riverbank. But it's definately a ravine around the perimeter.
> 
> Several times over the 2-day cure, either I or my my wife would pick up the piece and mess with it a bit. We both tilted it to one side or another to see how thick and gooey it had become over time. At one point (probably 24 hours into it), my wife (a bottle of wine in her belly) tilted it way too much, and the center portion pulled away from the portion that was grabbing ahold of the edges. Then, she over-compensated and tilted the other direction.  So I believe the "fissure" never really healed itself, and the blue is my paint job showing through a really thin part with not much dye in it. I can see and feel the ravine in the topcoat. Needless to say, I do not want to repeat that effect, LOL!
> 
> BTW, I damned the torpedoes and have gone full speed ahead with a final pour... reduced the mix to 1:48 (and I erred on the thin side). I put 1.75 teaspoons in each quart (each quart was now only 30 ounces, as I used 2 ounces from each to do the test) to yield 1:48 mixture (again, I erred on the thin side). So really, each mixture is probably closer to 1:45.
> 
> Pictures after the pour at 21:30 yesterday. Still milky white, obviously.
> View attachment 594139
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 594140
> 
> 
> I won't be home again until pretty late this evening, so I'll be able to post pictures later this evening at the 24-hour mark.


So like the pour was beginning to solidify into a glob, then detached ripped from the edge areas and didn’t quite reconnect quite right? Just trying to understand the physics, not that it really matters. You won’t be tilting the layout.


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## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> So like the pour was beginning to solidify into a glob, then detached ripped from the edge areas and didn’t quite reconnect quite right? Just trying to understand the physics, not that it really matters. You won’t be tilting the layout.


Exactly. It was a semi-fluid slab, that when tilted, the center section separated from the edges, and never congealed back together


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## JeffHurl

A pic from last night, about 24 hours into the cure.









Once again, I failed to snap a pic this morning.

The test pour wasn't large enough to identify an issue with how this product pools. It will self-level, but only to a point. It's about the consistency of pancake batter, and I can tell, on this larger pour, that there are visible pools... Like part of the river is slightly thicker than others, and you can see the seem between the different depths of product.

Lesson learned: I should have thinned the Acrylic Gloss Medium, then added dye, then pour.


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## OilValleyRy

Looks ok to me. I like that the silt got churned up by a propeller near the pier.


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## JeffHurl

OilValleyRy said:


> Looks ok to me. I like that the silt got churned up by a propeller near the pier.


I think that area is a few hours ahead in the curing process.

I had my wife snap some pics this morning. These are right about 36 hours in... By tonight, I expect that most of the remaining cloudiness will have faded away.

I'm a little worried there may be fissures in here as well... Last night, I thinned out the remaining product I have left over, and ried to top off the fissures. You can see them as milky white streaks that will be about a day behind the rest of the stuff in the curing process.

HEED THIS ADVICE: If you want a good self leveling pour using Acrylic Gloss Medium, *be sure to thin it first*. It's water soluble, so it would have been simple to do. Would have been nice if the people suggesting its use had offered the same caveat. Sure, the cure time would be longer, but the end result would likely be better.

sorry for the glare... The extra 12 hours since last night, and the curing has visible progressed. And the "uneven" surface is readily noticed.


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## Raege

Looking good. I’m betting when you put final coat to put ripples in that any spots you question will be gone. Awesome seeing pics step by step of process. Gives me more confidence when my turn comes so thanks


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## JeffHurl

Raege said:


> Looking good. I’m betting when you put final coat to put ripples in that any spots you question will be gone. Awesome seeing pics step by step of process. Gives me more confidence when my turn comes so thanks


There are a LOT of online tutorials for water, but not many of them tackle such a large area. I think my application is of sufficient scale to have issues that aren't so apparent when doing a smaller area. Hopefully, these posts help someone do better than I did.


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## OilValleyRy

JeffHurl said:


> There are a LOT of online tutorials for water, but not many of them tackle such a large area. I think my application is of sufficient scale to have issues that aren't so apparent when doing a smaller area. Hopefully, these posts help someone do better than I did.


That is what made it particularly interesting/helpful to me. A similar footprint area (mine will be 36” by 36-48”) and how many quarts will cover that at 1/8th thickness (I’m hoping to get 1/2 to 3/4” thickness… and have fishes, subsurface rocks, tree trunks, etc visible at the edges. Maybe even an old tire). Hence, gonna need a new mortgage j/k


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## JeffHurl

Pics at 48 hours. Lots of curing to go still. I topped off some more fissures.



























The color is turning out great!!!


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## pmcgurin

It really looks like that?


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## SF Gal

Cool to follow along and see what is happenng...*"It's a real Thriller!"* ....wondering how the final outcome will look. I am thinking of expanding my facia outward to make a Wharf off the side of my yard and have a freighter tied up. So seeing your progress is worth the documentation you are providing in this thread.
The water I have on my layout turned out way too blue.


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## Steve Rothstein

That last one looks really good to me. I wish I could do anything nearly as good as that.


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## JeffHurl

I think it looks better from 3 feet than it does up close. The fissures look neat, and give the water a "churning" look, but that's not too realistic to have water moving that fast in a river that supports barge traffic.

But those are nits to pick, I guess. Overall I'm happy, but a little disappointed in the pooling... Or should I say, the lack of pooling?

In hind sight, I didn't evaluate my test adequately. It fissured, and I just assumed it was a result of tipping the piece to see how dry it was getting by seeing if the product was still liquid. 

I wish I could start over and thin the medium first. Not necessarily because I want a better outcome, but to see IF it produces a better outcome.

Then again... I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and perfection is the enemy of progress.


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## BigGRacing

I think that it looks awesome Jeff! It looks very realistic and looks like the water has life....I remember the river in New Orleans moved very quickly when we travelled up it.


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## JeffHurl

pmcgurin said:


> It really looks like that?


Yes, sir. I put 1.75 teaspoons of Woodland Scenic raw umber liquid dye into a quart of Acrylic Gloss Medium, and shook it to mix it up for about 10 minutes while I walked my dog, lol.

That yields a mix roughly 1:48, one part dye to 48 parts medium.

The gloss medium is milky while in the bottle, but it turns clear as it cures.

The bottle says you can dilute it up to 25%.


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## JeffHurl

BigGRacing said:


> I think that it looks awesome Jeff! It looks very realistic and looks like the water has life....I remember the river in New Orleans moved very quickly when we travelled up it.


Thanks, Gary!


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## OilValleyRy

The “three foot rule” is a good thing to have mentioned. Online we only see camera views, often close up. Cameras are unforgiving. But typical operations, naked eye sight, is about 36” away. Usually.


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## REdington

I will agree, it looks great


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## Steve on Cattail Creek

JeffHurl said:


> I think it looks better from 3 feet than it does up close. The fissures look neat, and give the water a "churning" look, but that's not too realistic to have water moving that fast in a river that supports barge traffic.


No personal experience, but most of the instructional videos I've seen recommend pouring in layers, rather than one massive pour, perhaps to minimize the fissure issue? Also, most go with a Mod Podge or equivalent top layer, both to provide controllable texture and, I assume, to fill and cover any lower layer defects. If you end up less than satisfied, you might want to consider doing some such top layer . . .


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## JeffHurl

Good advice, Steve! Everything I saw said 1/8" is fine. It's thick enough that 1/8" is about as thin as it gets on its own unless you add water to dilute it, or spread it out with a paintbrush (which would ruin the look). I'm pretty sure I needed to dilute it first. A, I would have had to do that for multiple pours anyway, and B, it would have flowed into nooks and crannies better.

Live and learn. I'm just grateful to have the opportunity to attempt it. Not many people get to play with these toys. 🤓


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## REdington

Jeff,

You could mix some up using alcohol (alcohol will evaporate quicker) so that's very thin and see what it dries like on your test piece. If it works, use it on the layout to fix those areas that need it,


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## JeffHurl

I was going based on the advice in the link below... which turns out to be not entirely correct, by the way... which is why I'm being overly informative here... I hope to chronicle this real-life example, with documentation of the facts and circumstances, so people can draw their own conclusions.

It's a good product, but it is NOT as foolproof as the link makes it sound.

Everbuild Clear Fix


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## JeffHurl

Here is a pic from 21:00 Thursday, so about 72 hours into it 

I filled in fissures again.

I'm loving the color and the overall appearance. Hopefully I'll be able to obscure the fissures as it continues to cure.


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## JeffHurl

I started a small pond by the old church. We had been digging out Christmas wreaths and a bunch of fake pine needles littered the floor. I thought, what a great source to make some cattails. I got out my old fly tying vice and made up some cattails.
What do you think? I think they came out great!

The pond still needs to cure, but I was able to plant each cattails into the medium easily, even after 24 hours of dry time.


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## kilowatt62

Yyyyup. Thats lookin like the Ohio river I’m familiar with (Pgh).
In other words; lLooks good Jeff. Nice job man.


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## Raege

JeffHurl said:


> I was going based on the advice in the link below... which turns out to be not entirely correct, by the way... which is why I'm being overly informative here... I hope to chronicle this real-life example, with documentation of the facts and circumstances, so people can draw their own conclusions.
> 
> It's a good product, but it is NOT as foolproof as the link makes it sound.
> 
> Everbuild Clear Fix


That’s to bad hopefully it will work out albeit with a lot more effort on your part. Curious with what your seeing now compared to how you thought i5 would go would you have chosen a different product or method? 
thanks again for showing your build warts and all best info is seeing actual application vs just x does y


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## JeffHurl

Raege said:


> That’s to bad hopefully it will work out albeit with a lot more effort on your part. Curious with what your seeing now compared to how you thought i5 would go would you have chosen a different product or method?
> thanks again for showing your build warts and all best info is seeing actual application vs just x does y


Would I pick another product? I don't know, but in hind sight, I wish I would have conducted a larger test piece and I also wish I wouldn't have fiddled with the test by picking it up and tilting it, as that's what gave me the impression of what caused the fissure in the first place. I just assumed it was me & my wife messing with it, when all along, it could have just been the way the product cures (which I now believe to be true.

Lots of Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda's! 

I was looking at it last night, and it occurred to me why it's bothering me so much... Up close, it looks more like a tidal mud flat than it does a river.

But, I love the color, and the way it looks from 3-4 feet away, so I'm over it. I'm going to let it cure fully before doing anything else. Maybe someone will come along with a similar experience who can share their solution.

Hell, for all I know, maybe the fissures are caused because I used "liquid pigment" rather than just a few drops of acrylic paint to add color. But the mixture is only 1:48, so I kind of doubt it's the dye.

And that pond... I thinned the gloss medium before doing that pour, and you can see fissures already starting in that last pic. It's clearly visible in the milky white area. That pour is less less than 1/8" thick, the product was thinned by adding about 10% water.

So... while gloss medium IS a cool product, I'm not convinced it was the best product for this particular application. But I couldn't tell you what other product I'd use.


BTW, I have been calling it liquid dye, but it is actually liquid pigment.


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## Raege

Good point on what fissures are being caused by. A lot of variables in play from one application to the next. Paint used on surface,pigments,temp,and humidity all perhaps factoring in. I do like the idea of a all in one bottle medium vs a two part especially for such a large area. If I dont hit the lottery and hire Luke Towan to do my water think this could be good alternative worth the extra tweaking and touch ups.


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## JeffHurl

It's funny you mention 2-part solutions... I wasn't confident I could mix up that much 2-part epoxy (Like Enviro Tex) all at one time. I figured I would have to mix up 2,3, maybe even 4 batches, and didn't want to rick having visible lines between each pool/pour... which is exactly what happened with the "1-pour" solution I thought I had. 

I AM pretty sure, though, that Enviro Tex wouldn't have fissures in the curing process. We've made a lot of table tops using that stuff to cover up bottle caps, dried flowers, sea shells, etc. and have never had any issues other than having to mix up an adequate amount.


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## JeffHurl

I tried to get artistic with perspective on some of these.


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## JeffHurl




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## BigGRacing

Beautiful river photos!


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## JeffHurl

Thanks, Gary! It's about time to put the track back together and run some trains and get some video


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## JeffHurl

I made some cattails seed pods by dipping the end of a wire into liquid latex. They look more like corn dogs on a wire, but they will do!

I painted the whole thing green, then just the tip got brown. I think they look pretty good!


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## pmcgurin

I think those cattails look OK.


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## JeffHurl

Thanks, pmcg!

They were tedious to make or I would have twisted up several more. I did spend a bit of time traveling down memory lane... it has been probably 40+ years since I have tied a fly. And I have carried around that jig/vice since I was about 12 or 13, when my father got them for me for Christmas one year. I spent hors and hours learning techniques by Uncle Don. Don was Dad's friend who taught me how to do things when my dad was busy making rounds at the hospital.

Uncle Don made anchors by pouring concrete into a pair of old rubber boots and sticking an I-bolt down into them before they dried. When I asked him why he used old boots insterad of an old bucket, he said" "Haven't you ever lost a shoe in the mud?" Genius... they were conversation pieces, not just anchors...


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## JeffHurl

A quick update on my use of Acrylic Gloss Medium. I thinned my left over 1:48 mixture by adding in about 20% of 70% IPA, and poured this pond. You can clearly see that, even thinned at 20%, the product did not pool well at all. Zoom in on the people sitting on the dock... It looks like there are 3-foot waves in the pond. 









Again... I'm not sure if the product just behaves like this, or if I made it worse by using WS Liquid Pigment instead of adding a few drops of acrylic craft paint, which is more like a dye than a pigment.

Edit to add that when first poured, it was a flat surface that looked like a puddle of milk.


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## Raege

Wow did it contract or just expand as it set up? Can’t tell from pics if it pulled away from edges that much.Would be good for an ocean or rushing river scene tho.


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## JeffHurl

It shrinks as it dries. I'm getting some feedback in other forums (art related), and I'm becoming more educated... The paint forms a skin on the surface as it dries faster than the product below it. If it's too deep of a pour, the force from the skin on top shrinking faster than the pool under it will cause a crack. Once the crack forms, it will get larger until it is fully cured.

What's really Interesting, is that if it's thinned too much, the problem gets worse, as the thinning process also thins out the polymer binders in the medium. And it's the binders that try to keep it from cracking. On the other hand, if it's too thick, then the skin also cures a lot faster than the stuff below... So apparently, it's a balancing act between depth of pour, and how thick or thin it is...

If I had to do this all over again, I would have used EnviroTex 2-part epoxy. At least I have experience with that stuff, and I'm confident it wouldn't have fissured like this. (edit to add: that the same drying process is what makes a mud flat look the way it does at low tide)

So if anyone tells you that you can pour Acrylic Gloss Medium as thick as you want, get a second opinion!


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## Stumpy

Also, the chemical reaction between the resin and the hardener generates heat. If you pour too deep it'll skin (as you said) so it can't shed the heat and it'll smoke and/or, as you experienced, crack.


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## OilValleyRy

I’ve been thinking about those “river table” vids on youtube and how, if at all, the epoxy resin they use is different from evirotex. I might try building a coffee table before trying to build a river.


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## JeffHurl

The Envirotex stuff works best if you keep pours at 1/8" or so

Edit to add: We made a lot of table tops by arranging bottle caps and covering them with Envirotex... a few with sea shells, and others with dried flowers.

The biggest issue we had, was keeping teh items in place when pouring. Things need to be tacked down so they don't drift around or float up off the table top.


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## JeffHurl

When time permits, I will treat the fissures with more product to see if I can obscure them a bit. I am learning more and more about gloss medium. The Liquitex brand that I bought says it can safely be diluted by up to 20%. I'm assuming they mean that diluting more than that will make my problem worse because it would dilute the "binders" which tries to hold things together while it dries.

In my application, the product cured too rapidly, which made the top skin shrink a lot faster than the pool below it. You can't completely prevent that from happening, but the faster it dries, the higher the probability that the force from the skin shrinking overcomes the strength of the binders, and a crack forms in the skin. Once that crack starts, it will get larger as it all continues to dry.

I'm trying to let this pour fully cure before I treat it any further... The plan is to top off the fissures with more product, but I need to do this with the best intelligence I can gather, as I only have 1 chance to get it right.


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## JeffHurl

Update (sorry, no pics).

I bought a pint of Liquitex Acrylic Gloss Medium, and mixed up a couple of ounces diluted with water at 20%. 

For the test, I put in 1/8 teaspoon of Liquitex Raw Umber Acrylic Paint. It's too opaque. Clearly, the Woodland Scenic Liquid Pigment isn't as solid of a color as the paint is. I suspected this, which is why I started the test with such a small amount of paint So I reduced it down to one-half the paint. If my math is correct, this gives about a 1:96 ratio... One part paint to 96 parts diluted medium. 

This looked more like what I'm after, so I poured some into the fissures last night. But I forgot to go downstairs to look at it this morning before heading into the office for the day.

I'll snap some pics this evening.


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