# It's alive!



## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

A couple pics of my 1966 All-Aboard Pioneer 600. Running and cleaned up and most the board decor found and in place. The 21165 I put together from an Ebay unit that ran, but had light rust underneath and my original that did not run, but was pristine in appearance, no rust. Getting it to run again after the mashup was a real PITA. Those reverse units are some delicate sons-of-a-gun! And it took an ohm meter and several whacks at track cleanup to really get her going.

My track cleanup method for 53 year old track? First a Dremel with wire brush attachment, then some 400 grit sandpaper and finally solvent (thinner) to remove any lingering residue. And wire-wheeling all the track pins thoroughly.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Don't use sand-paper, use a bright-boy or something similar.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

TY shaker281 - your photos let me show my wife where I think I'm going in N scale. :thumbsup:


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

That sure looks nice! Be careful cleaning that Pikemaster track, it is much thinner and more fragile than the standard Gilbert track. With the freshly cleaned track pins put a small amount of conductive grease on them for perfect conductivity and no more oxidation.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

If you want to see your Pioneer 600 set along with all the others go to trainweb.org/allaboardsets/. The site also has the complete inventory for each set, variations and estimated values.


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

It's looking good.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Nice looking set.

I forget what they are called but to clean track I use those green pot scrubbers found in many kitchens. Does not seem to take off metal.

Might be called scotch bright pads.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thanks guys, going forward I'll be more gentle. This is 53 year old track that was never maintained properly. I only cleaned enough that the train quit stopping every few inches. But, point taken. 

The 60 & 70 year old track for the 312 and Diesel was even worse, even after the wire wheel ( I was sorta easy on it), it was still sparking all the way around. 

Thanks for the link AmFlyer. I'll have to get some conductive grease, some of the original pins were missing (or driven up the rail) and I used standard pins doubled up temporarily, until I find some proper replacements. I did not know it was called pikemaster. That might help in my search!

A supplementary question: Is it possible that the 15B just doesn't have enough juice for the Alco ABA and 979 caboose? It really drags down when I add the caboose or B unit. I know they are heavy, but the original train had them and 7 more cars! I've cleaned and lubed everything, without getting too carried away on the oil.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The Pikemaster track used on the All Aboard panels have eyelets in the first tie for the hooks that lock the panels together. Standard Pikemaster does not have those. 
The ABA Northern Pacific set I have only has one powered A unit with two motors. That ABA set has a peak draw of about 4A. The 15B is rated 110W input, the output is between 5A and 6A continuous. If you are running an ABA set with 4 motors the peak draw will be 6A to 7A plus the passenger car lighting. Normal running of a 4 motor set with 5 passenger cars should be about 4A at 12V. The 15B will work but you will see slowing on grades and do not use the fixed voltage post for any accessories. The 15B is more than adequate for the standard 2 motor ABA set. It is possible the carbon roller in the transformer is bad, I never had a problem using a 15B.
When I used Gilbert transformers to run the trains I had a dedicated 19B for each main line. These are 300W single control, will run anything without getting warm.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

I should have indicated that the second A unit is a dummy. So, just a light. Plus whatever the B unit is drawing (appx .15 amp @ 15v) through it's 10 ohm resistor (I've disconnected the capacitor and should do the same for the resistor). And the caboose has the solenoid for the brakeman and a light as well. Adding either seems to really slow things down. 

The 15B looks really clean (assuming hardly used), but maybe I'll open it up and clean it up a bit. Thanks for all the great info. I guess I could have done the math i.e. 110 watt (VA) output divided by 16v = 6.875 amps nominally. I wasn't sure what the engines draw. Good to know.

And those clips that hold the track sections together were all missing. I made some new ones from a coat hanger until I find some originals, if possible.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Adding a 977 caboose to a two motor PA set should not visibly slow down a train running on a 15B.
Gilbert steam engines with smoke are about 2.5A max (at stall) maybe 1A to 1.5A normal running. The dual motor PA is about 4A max, half that normal running.
For Gilbert transformers if you use VA there is about 20% loss from input to output, say 90VA output. Since our trains are inductive motors the current lags the voltage. Some of the load like lights are resistive so we can use 75% including the losses to convert the transformer output capacity to real (less reactive) AC power. Then 110W input times .75 divide by 15V equals 5.5A continuous output. The 15B will output more for short periods assuming the breaker does not trip.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

Great explanation. Thanks. Guessing you are an EE. I'm self-taught in electronics, so conversations like this are great learning experiences for me. 

I am believing now that any issues I might have are more likely weight, overall conductivity or my engine is not running at full efficiency. I get consistent voltage readings all around the track (don't have an AC ammeter that will measure above 200 mA) , but will focus on cleaning a bit more, conductive oil and temper my expectations on pulling power.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

A long time ago I earned a degree in EE however my professional career was not in the EE field so I have forgotten much of it. I still know Ohm's law. Six years ago I guest lectured in a 300 series EE class back at the university, that was truly scary.
If you try to measure voltage on your track the meter will show the transformer output voltage everywhere on the track regardless if the connections are good or bad. The reason is the meter has an input impedance in the megohm range so it draws almost no current to make the measurement. No current means no voltage drop per Ohms law. A load is needed in parallel with the meter to get an actual voltage reading. At 15V a 3 Ohm resistor to draw 5A needs to be connected at the same spot the meter is connected to get an accurate voltage reading. Unfortunately the resistor would have to be 75W rated, good luck finding one. Some people use an old automotive incandescent headlight for the load, others just mount an easy to see digital volt meter on a flatcar coupled to an engine. Others, like me who have been doing this for half a century trust our experience and techniques to get the track right. 
I do get surprise voltage drops on layouts. With good trackwork they are always at the lockon power connection or oxidation of the internal contacts in the turnouts.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Concerning your PA powered A unit. You have cleaned and lubed the engine but it seems to be down on pulling power. These engines are notorious for wearing the axle holes in the chassis. Once these holes enlarge the engine will run poorly. If this engine has a lot of run time that is likely. The repair involves disassembly, drilling out the chassis and installing new brass bearings. One done it is a lifetime fix. Some have done this at home but it requires the right tools. I would send it to one of the pro's who offer this service.
Flyernut, if you are reading this what do you think?


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AmFlyer said:


> Concerning your PA powered A unit. You have cleaned and lubed the engine but it seems to be down on pulling power. These engines are notorious for wearing the axle holes in the chassis. Once these holes enlarge the engine will run poorly. If this engine has a lot of run time that is likely. The repair involves disassembly, drilling out the chassis and installing new brass bearings. One done it is a lifetime fix. Some have done this at home but it requires the right tools. I would send it to one of the pro's who offer this service.
> Flyernut, if you are reading this what do you think?


Yes Tom, send it to a pro, but that's not me,lol.. Everything you said I agree with. I've had basket case PA's that I've manage to resuscitate, but I don't like working on them, especially the 2 motor type. I've never done the bushing repair if that's what needed; I would send it to Doug peck at PortLines for the repair, again, if needed.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

Thanks guys, been busy getting the old 312 to run (see other thread) and other incidentals. 

I would say the engine has average run time. And seems to be doing good at pulling 6-7 ordinary cars. I really only notice a slowdown when I add the bay window caboose with brakeman or the non-functional diesel-roar unit. Even the dummy A unit seems to be OK. I will disconnect all electronics in the B unit and lubricate well as a next step. And lube up the 979 caboose. The thing buzzes continuously, due to the brakeman solenoid. Not sure if that is normal or a cleaning issue or something else. My problem could just be friction and weight related with an added dose of current draw, I suppose. 

A few questions:

1. How would one determine if the axle holes are problematic? Excess play? I did not notice any when I had the trucks apart for rebuild and lube. They actually rolled pretty good. 
2. How would one know if the field is properly centered? I centered mine by eye and have not tweaked on it since. 
3. What is a good locally available conductive grease? I did purchase some CRC 2-26 from Home Depot in spray can. 

I have measured up to 16.5v at the variable output of the transformer, about 16v at the track near the terminals and find ~13v on track with train running full speed. So, I think the transformer is doing OK, despite not having a suitable ammeter to test with. 

I have been fine tuning the track layout and think things are improving as I clean and apply CRC 2-26 lightly at points of contact/friction.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Hi, I haven't been around the forum for a while. I've had a similar problem with one of my Standard Gauge trains before, have you checked to make sure the commutator on the motor and the brushes are clean? My Standard Gauge loco was having trouble pulling cars, but when I replaced the brushes and cleaned the commutator it ran a lot better. Also you mentioned your 21165 has a reverse unit, was that something they only included on some of their 4-4-0's? I have a Casey Jones Game Train that looks very similar, but it only goes forward.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Hi, I haven't been around the forum for a while. I've had a similar problem with one of my Standard Gauge trains before, have you checked to make sure the commutator on the motor and the brushes are clean? My Standard Gauge loco was having trouble pulling cars, but when I replaced the brushes and cleaned the commutator it ran a lot better. Also you mentioned your 21165 has a reverse unit, was that something they only included on some of their 4-4-0's? I have a Casey Jones Game Train that looks very similar, but it only goes forward.


Hi, Blue Comet. I did clean the commutator, but while repairing the wire to one of the brushes, the brush got a slight bit out of alignment. It seemed to sit against the commutator well, but I may check and tweak it a bit. This unit had a complete clean and rebuild. Along with wiring repair. Thanks for the suggestion.

On the rear of the Casey Jones there should be a small black and white reverse unit. If so, there is a silver colored tab at the bottom that can be pulled down and pushed up. In the up position, the reverse unit is locked. In the down position, it is free to cycle from forward to reverse. If the internal contacts are not clean, or moving freely, it can cause the motor to receive no power or stick in one position (forward or reverse). I had one where the solenoid was completely locked up too. It would not move at all, almost like it was internally fused.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Shaker, I will try to answer some of your questions. First the conductive grease. A spray lube is not what you want for the track pins. I use a product by GB called OX-Gard, #OX-100. It is made for joining aluminum to copper wires and terminations. It is a grease that improves conductivity and prevents oxidation.
I am wondering about the voltage drop you are getting on the layout. I just did a quick check on my layout. The voltage measured on the transformer terminals was 14.1, the voltage on the track near the engine wheels was 13.7. These two points are about 25' apart. I recommend you first check the unloaded voltage at the transformer terminals. I think you did this a saw 16.5V. Measure it again with the train running at a fast speed and see what it is. This will show the transformer voltage sag under load. Assuming the two motor diesel is drawing two to three amps at speed the output voltage sag under this half load should be very small, around .1V or .2V. All the other drop is connections, wire and track resistance.
Your post says there is a .5V drop between the transformer and the track at the track terminal. This is likely the track terminal connection to the rails, The track flanges need to be cleaned, the track clip cleaned and tightened and conductive grease used on the track flanges. Properly cleaned there should be no more than a .1V drop at this point (assuming you are using at least 16gauge wire.)
In order to drop 3.5V with the engine drawing 3A there is 1.13 Ohm of resistance in the wiring and connections. That 1.13 Ohms is dissipating 10Watts of energy as heat. Making tight, clean connections will eliminate most of the resistance. It is a pain but the trains do run better. Also if you have any turnouts they need to taken apart and all the internal contacts cleaned and tightened. This is really easy on Gilbert turnouts and can make a big difference.


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## flyguy55 (Apr 20, 2015)

If you do consider re-busing your power trucks you may want to consider the cost.Two trucks with shipping back and return will surely be over a hundred bucks.You may consider looking for a donor two motor PA.It may be cosmetcally bad with good running chassis.Although that opens another can of worms as the donor may have same chassis issues.If that is the case you have another project.....


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

Those readings are very helpful. Thanks again for your help. I have cleaned the turnouts and only have one attached presently. The sluggishness was happening before I attached it though. But, I'll remove it temporarily to limit the variables. 

13v at output of transformer while train is running full speed. 12.7v at track. I cleaned the track terminal and track at attachment point. The wire is 16 gauge and I tinned the wire at the terminal end, and with spade connectors crimped on at the transformer end. 

Unloaded voltage at transformer output is 16.15. Voltage halfway around track at engine location 12.4. 

So, I think I am losing around .5v unloaded at transformer and up to 1.3v at engine wheels 180 degrees around. I think this would account for what I am seeing in terms of speed. I've cleaned all the track pins, but there might still be some high resistance points there. And I am suspecting the transformer could stand internal cleaning at this point too. 

Edit: OK, I've cleaned the internal contact points on the transformer and a few track pins that looked nasty still. I am up to ~13.4v at train wheels while running. I suspect that a bit more track pin cleaning and some OX100 will help some more.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

flyguy55 said:


> If you do consider re-busing your power trucks you may want to consider the cost.Two trucks with shipping back and return will surely be over a hundred bucks.You may consider looking for a donor two motor PA.It may be cosmetcally bad with good running chassis.Although that opens another can of worms as the donor may have same chassis issues.If that is the case you have another project.....


I'm thinking less that the engine is the problem at this point and more just a transformer that needed cleaning and some 60-70 year old track that needs additional care. 

I agree though. I doubt I'd pay that to ship and repair. I'd probably buy the tools and give it a go myself or buy a donor chassis, as you suggest. I like a project and always enjoy acquiring tools!

Edit: I've now gone all the way around with a meter, looking for any sections that are higher than 0 ohms through the pins, and cleaned those spots. I am up to 13.6v at engine wheels, running full out, 180 degrees from transformer. I think that most of my issues are solved.

Thanks guys for the assist!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

It is always fun to quickly assemble some track and run some trains but at some point all this needs to be properly cleaned and assembled so the trains run good. It sounds like your engine power trucks are not worn nor causing a problem.
I bought my grease at the local hardware, it was stocked near the breakers and breaker panels. I am sure there are other brands that do the same thing.


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## dooper (Nov 9, 2015)

RE - Centering of fields - I did mine by eye also. With body removed, you can test by making small adjustments and see how fast it runs. The last time I did it, it really made a difference in performance.


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

dooper said:


> RE - Centering of fields - I did mine by eye also. With body removed, you can test by making small adjustments and see how fast it runs. The last time I did it, it really made a difference in performance.


That is exactly what I was wondering: if it made a performance difference. I'll give it a try. Thanks!


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## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

So, decided to try re-centering my fields and discovered that one of my 484 axles wasn't engaging the armature worm drive! Apparently the galled screws that I thought I'd repaired weren't holding the bearing cap or brush assembly securely on one of the trucks!

I've made a temporary repair while waiting on new screws and made adjustments to the fields - now she's running much stronger. When the screws and some new fiber washers get here I'll make further repairs and adjustment, but I am finally seeing the true capability of this engine. Along with more track cleaning, and conductive grease on track pins, she is running very smoothly now.

Edit: Just completed the final repairs (for now - lol). I realigned the brush that was a bit off, replaced the galled screws at the bearing caps. Re-soldered a questionable wire to winding attachment point. Greased and oiled wheels and gears. Cleaned the commutators again. Put new leaf springs on the couplers. Centered the fields just a bit. Insulated the (now) magnetized reverse unit pawl that was sticking (with a piece of e-tape). And replaced some non-standard metal washers with the correct fiber ones. She is running fine! Thanks to everyone for all the help.


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