# Finally I own a 4-8-8-4 Big Boy! Now Re-motoring help needed



## musicwerks

Dear friends,

After numerous failures in bidding for a Rivarossi 4-8-8-4 big boy, I finally won bidding one for myself.

Now, I have to think about a) how to re-motor the old Big Boy and b) putting DCC sound into it. 

This would be one interesting project.

a) Anyone can offer any advice on re-motoring the rivarossi Big Boy?

I don't for see much problem in DCC-ing the engine, but putting speakers into the loco body will be interesting. So far, all my DCC sound are installed in tenders of the big proto 2K 2-8-8-2 

b) Anyone care to share a layout of Sound DCC for Rivarossi bigboy?

Kiong


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## Grabbem88

I'm currently waiting on my new motor for my 4-6-4 but have read about using two canon en-22's in that engine those motors are about 15.00 on eBay if you can snag them up..

I went with a faulhaber 224sr which will run about 40 on eBay or close to 125.00 shipped from Germany.

I'm sure there are other motors but from the rivarossi guys this has been the recomendation 

Not 100% on decoders but some choose lenz since steamers don't utilize beacons ditchlights other than that I'm not of help.


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## JerryH

Usually the decoder and speakers are located in the tender on steam. A lot more room for bigger speakers and better sound. The wires for the motor, lights, smoke, cam, etc from the loco use a small interconnect to the tender.


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## Southern

Any room that is available in the loco should be used for weights. Put the decoder and speaker in the tender.


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## Grabbem88

I agree weight equals traction and since you are looking to upgrade the motor most newer motors have the tq to withstand the added weight without burning it up.


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## musicwerks

Thanks guys! 

I will try my mabuchi 12v replacement motor for auto door first, if its too big, I will purchasing a canon EN-22 motor.

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/13100240...WAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648#ht_500wt_923


Still looking at connectors from Germany


http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/3x-Mini-..._Modelleisenbahnen&hash=item5657ceb8ed&_uhb=1

As for the DCC, probably LokSound Decoders with LEDs


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## norgale

Two things I've learned about DCC is that the motor MUST be totally isolated from any ground and the two wires from the motor MUST be connected directly to the decoder and not to anything else. I've been studying Kalmbach Books "DCC made easy" by Lionel Strang. This book does not show how to DCC specific locos but it does give you specifics on what wire goes where and what it's for. It's a great book and anybody in DCC or thinking about going that way really ought to have a copy.
As for what decoder to buy I would consult the manufacturer of my DCC system and see what they have so that your new decoder is compatable with your DCC system.
Kiong I hope you will post some pictures of your conversion and tell us how you decided on what to buy. 
By the way what is the political climate like in Singapore these days? Pete


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## musicwerks

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the dcc inputs! Sure thing, I am more than glad to post the progress up.

Political climate? Citizens are free to run model trains in their own properties


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## rrgrassi

Grabbem, I just ordered the Faulhaber 2224sr for my Cab Forward. I looked again at my Berk and it has a newer motor and flywheel/worm gear.

I do have all the drive shafts for my cab forward. If I grind the notch for the drive shaft, do you think that would throw the motor's balance off or cause any damage to the motor?


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## dlbraly

picture?


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## rrgrassi

dlbraly said:


> picture?


Of the Berk or the Cab Forward? They are currently assembled, and no room on my "bench" to disassemble and take pics...yet. I'll do so when the motor arrives.

Musicwerks, What DCC decoder do you plan on using? I'm going with Soundtraxx.


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## dlbraly

both
sounds cool
When ever you get a chance is fine.


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## musicwerks

Hi chaps

I took apart my old big boy It Was SCARY! cost me alot of dough to buy and ship To Singapore 
Sawing off the original brutish metal holder to make space for thr new motor


I need help connect my new canon DN Motor to the existing rivarossi shaft- I read that nwsl universal joints does the trick, what is the nwsl model to use?

Any chance to use a rubber tubing?

Help help help 
Please


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## musicwerks

Rrgrassi,

I will likely to use loksound 2-8-8-2 yb sound decoder. But I need to get the shaft to connect to my new motor


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## musicwerks

Hi chaps

I took apart my old big boy It Was SCARY! cost me alot of dough to buy and ship To Singapore 
Sawing off the original brutish metal holder to make space for thr new motor


I need help connect my new canon DN Motor to the existing rivarossi shaft- I read that nwsl universal joints does the trick, what is the nwsl model to use?

Any chance to use a rubber tubing?

Help help help 
Please


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## musicwerks

BTW,

I screwed up the orginial plastic joint tubing...


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## Grabbem88

2mm fuel tubing shoved in aluminum tubing did the trick for me

Unless you decide on a flywheel I would try and reuse stock driveshaft with a little cutting and sanding obviously

I suggest you look at my post on my faulhaber build


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## musicwerks

Hi Grabbem,

thanks for the tips, was having cold sweat with the connections...

I will try look around for 2mm fuel tubing.

U got a hyperlink to your build?


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## Grabbem88

It's on here when I was comparing the en-22 to the faulhaber on HO scale section.

The canon is a great motor and if you have more than one rivarossi or other steam articulates then for the 15.00 price that's the route I'd go but when you only have one like myself the faulhaber is just bada$$ 

But I'll be glad to help out in any way I can

My other idea (which rrgassi reads this) 

Take an athearn flywheel slip it on the canon or faulhaber if it's loose

Contact cement or silicone will work 

Now slip the rivarossi driveshaft in the flywheel mock it up... dremmel off the d/s (flywheel end!!) till it fits tight enough but not too tight and you will have the best running engine ever!!

Ok I'm the mechanic 

Now I need the electrician on what you selected for dcc and sound 

Im ok with electricity but the added dcc is where I'm having trouble deciding on and why


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## rrgrassi

Grabbem, I'm going with a Soundtraxx Tsunami. It is not that difficult to set up. If you can do basic wiring, you can do the DCC install.

The Soundtraxx website actually has a decoder selector area that will guide you to the decoder set up for the type of locomotive. 

I'll look into the Athearn flywheel idea. I do not have any spares at the moment. I'm sure I can find something though.

Musicwerks, make sure the Loc Sound lets you adjust for different wheel diameters. As I recall the Y had smaller wheel diameters.


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## Grabbem88

Yeah I got no problem with the install it's the choices

I got plenty of the steel flywheels and odds and ends of proto and athearn


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## Grabbem88

Forgot but you gotta stick it in some tubing which will oversize the diameter enough to fit in the original pocket on the athearn flywheel.

Or wrap with black tape either way will work


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## musicwerks

Hi Grabbem,

Thanks for the inputs on the flywheel. I will try the rubber tubing but I am having great difficulty here trying to find internal diameter 2mm tubes. 

The bicycle shop owner is an _____ (fill in the blanks yourself) and refused to sell any rubber brake pipes to me.

I have ordered some from ebay 

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Silicone...LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item33848fa74a&_uhb=1

Not sure if these are stiff enough to do the job without twisting and buckling when torque is applied by the motor.

I am also considering these

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/RC-Subma...ntrol_Control_Line&hash=item4178d8328b&_uhb=1

You know, I have a bad BAD BAD feeling that my SGD 300++ bigboy has gone down the drain as 

a) I am not 100 confident that I can join up the new canon motor to the Rivarossi gearing without slipping. I kept thinking that it will NOT work.  

I was pretty stressed and my hands shook when I took the Big Boy apart for the first time (An hobby became stress..that's dumb), I must thank my lucky stars, the electrical connections still work...

b) Will the new motor generate enough torque even to run the big boy effectively??? :thumbsdown:

c) Trying to look for replacement of the original Rivarossi plastic tubing in big boy, I have damaged the original one like I said...I am not really a mechnical kind who can fabricate moving parts precisely...NONE on ebay to date


I have got a bad bad bad feeling...should have stuck with the original motors:thumbsdown:


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## Grabbem88

Give me the length and I'll make the tubing for ya

That canon is plenty strong 

Back away take a deep breath nothing is really broke so all is good.


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## musicwerks

Thank man...

Needed some calming advise..

The length of the tubing is about 4cm..Thanks a million man.

I will PM you my address, Thanks a million man

cheers.


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## Grabbem88

I don't want an "about" put tube against a ruler a take a pic 
Or an exact reading

What I'll do is leave a kettle extra fuel tube inside sleeve to either be snipped off or shoved back in


And don't sweat it! This is why I'm posting my projects and if somebody try's it or wants the same I will help in any way possible

Thanks art


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## musicwerks

Grabbem88 said:


> I don't want an "about" put tube against a ruler a take a pic
> Or an exact reading
> 
> What I'll do is leave a kettle extra fuel tube inside sleeve to either be snipped off or shoved back in
> 
> 
> And don't sweat it! This is why I'm posting my projects and if somebody try's it or wants the same I will help in any way possible
> 
> Thanks art


Hi Art,

Yeah you are right...exact reading. I think I better take a photograph. Its like midnight here in Singapore, I will take a photo against a ruler when day breaks with good lighting and post it up here.

Cheers
Kiong


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## Grabbem88

Ok that will work


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## musicwerks

Grabbem88 said:


> Ok that will work


Hi the pictures of the position of the motor in the cab, (secured with silly putty to show its final position)






































Thanks 
Kiong


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## musicwerks

I will built up with plastic cards stacked together and probably use some hot glue to secure the motor in place...or maybe build something out of aluminium to secure it to the cab.

Somebody in the tyco forums use some translucent silicon putty glue to stick it. wonder what it is 

Hot glue gun runs the risk of melting the plastic


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## Grabbem88

Looks like 1 1/2 will get that thing going 

Get the best servo tape you can find or locking Velcro tape 

I have wrecked my r/c car doing 80-85mph and all my electronics stays in place


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## Grabbem88

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af158/countrygurl78/IMG_1586.jpg


How about that 3 minutes and you got a drive shaft that will work


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## musicwerks

hi Art,

Thanks man for the help with and supplying the spare tube.

How did u fabricate that tube in the pic?

Kiong


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## Grabbem88

2mm fuel line stuffed in 2.5mm tubing inside diameter on the aluminum


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## musicwerks

Hi Art,

Thanks for the info. I don't think I can get the materials to fabricate one though...

Cheers
Kiong


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## Grabbem88

Hopefully shipping and customs won't be a pita then..

Let's see if I can send this one out


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## musicwerks

Art,

I tried to use a rubber tubing I got from ebay. It was too fat, I inserted a Vitagen drink plastic straw inside and managed to join the motor to the drive










Then I taped the motor down with masking tape for trial runs.

These are my findings and observations

a) The loco ran worse than before, very jerky movement. The old rivarossi motor was noisy but ran well.

b) The Canon DN-22 motor doesn't seem strong enough (It's bad, nothing good like what Tyco forums said it to be)

It cannot run the train smoothly though it is a very quite motor. The train get stuck at the curves and over switch machines.

Is that problem caused by the 'inferior' connection device, or simply the canon DN-22 motor is simply too weak and lacks power? (I though it seems to be a case of weak motor)

I have tried cleaning the tracks and wheels and also oiled the gear differentials.

I am using a MDC direct current power supply, it ran my other locos well.

Any insights are welcomed.

Kiong


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## Grabbem88

Sorry to hear that about the motor kinda had a gut feeling the cannon wasn't even comparable to what I chose ( the faulhaber ) yes it's pricey but go check out my videos and see for yourself

You might have to add extra wipers for better contact and stop the jerking?


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## musicwerks

Grabbem88 said:


> Sorry to hear that about the motor kinda had a gut feeling the cannon wasn't even comparable to what I chose ( the faulhaber ) yes it's pricey but go check out my videos and see for yourself
> 
> You might have to add extra wipers for better contact and stop the jerking?


Hi Art,

Which model of the Faulhaber did you used for your remotoring project? 

Kiong


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## Grabbem88

The Sr model gotta look at my post lol!


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## musicwerks

Yeah, I just saw the post.

I have just ordered a Faulhaber 2224sr from ebay seconds ago..its at least 2 times the price of the crappy Canon motor. The merchant also states that the Faulhaber 2224sr is suitable for Rivarossi Big boy in the advertisement.

Wish my luck, hopefully I can get my precious big boy moving again.


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## rrgrassi

Musicwerks, I have not seen the insides of a Riv Big Boy. If it's like the Cab Forward, you will have some milling and fabrication to do. It's worth it when done though. The motor uses 2mm screws.

Note, the locomotive will run slower, but the pulling ability is amazing.

Check out my "It Starts" thread.


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## musicwerks

thanks man


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## Grabbem88

By your pics the faulhaber will not hang out that much! Just noticed that geewizz!

Also get ahold of a Rc antenna best fitting driveshaft with a sleeved tubes over it for integrety and strength


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## rrgrassi

It's in the HO section:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=20758


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## musicwerks

Good news. Finally managed to remotor and run my rivarossi big boy

I used a left over 12v mabuchi motor and the drive shaft is a cotton bud plastic tubing.


Now it runs and pulls just like rivarossi minus the noise. Slow speed is still not possible


Waiting for the fauhaber motor to arrive, it seems to take forever to come even it's priority mail


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## norgale

Musicwerks any chance you have a picture of your 4-8-8-4 to post? I'd like to see what you have done with the motor. Pete


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## musicwerks

Dear friends,

Good news, I have solved the teething problems of poor contact and managed to make my old Big Boy run fine across switches and curves too (22 inch), minus the noisy motor sound.



I must thank all the members who have chimed in and help me thus far, 


Especially to 2 members Grabbem and RRgrassi. Thank you very much chaps. Grabbem, especially for fabricating the DS for me and encouragement when I was really disappointed after numerous failures. 

I took a lot reference and cues from RRgrassi from his Cab Forward Re-motoring thread. Structurally, the Big Boy has a similar driving mechanism. 

Three Cheers for these 2 gentlemen!

As I am still waiting for my Faulhaber to arrive (now where the heck is the motor, its supposed to arrive via priority mail), I am using an spare 12V Mabuchi motor now.

Its fat but is used to motorize house doors, so it works okay IMHO.

Here are the pictures

Fat Mabuchi motor (made in Vietnam)












Grabbem suggested Servo tapes to secure the motor, here I use it to secure curved fishing lead slabs to the originial loco shell. 











How the Manbuchi motor connects to original drive gear. The Drive Shaft is a plastic from cotton bud (the ones we clean our ears with). The internal diameter fits and motor and all. Notice how its flexible but does not buckle (yet). Grabbem suggested using RC antenna tubing for more strength (My local Tamiya antenna are too small to fit so I couldn't manage to do it,










The 3M tape and servo tapes help to keep the motor in place with some flexibility when its clamps between the chassis and body. Different folks use different ways to secure the motor...





Some lessons I learnt from this re-motoring project



a) Disassemble and refit the locomotive with utmost care. Any missing parts/ mis-aligned WILL affect the performance of the Loco. 


I broke the rear bogie and drawbar during refitting. it cost me a headache. Now the bogie unit and drawbar secured with a small diameter Tamiya screw and nut for RC cars. Problem, I have to secure the nut with Tamiya Lock tight thread liquid or maybe CA later.

I wished I hadn't forced the rear bogie and drawbar and the rivet hadn't broke



b) Every original part counts, even the smallest micro springs that hold the front and rear bogies. 

The Italian manufacturer MUST have a reason for every nut or rivet fit into the loco. 

I ignored the small micro springs at first but later I found out that the rear end micro spring plays an important part in keeping the rear bogie in place and even perhaps in the power pickup (I read this from another train website forum)



c) Make sure the metal conducting wipers are touching the rear axle bogie wheels or wheels.

Mine wasn't touching and my loco simply stalled at that one switch and curve. I had to bend the wipers with a tweezers gently to make them contact with the axles of the rear bogies. 

I was surprised how a rear bogie wiper will contribute to the power pickup of the entire loco.



d) Old Rivarossi Big Boys have fewer/ poorer power pickups. But I am not sure if this is true of the new Hornby DCC ones.

On the old 1970s Big Boys, the 1st articulated unit, on the fireman side- the 1st and 3rd wheels picks up electricity, 2nd and 4th DO NOT pick up any electricity. Likewise, on the second articulated unit but on the driver side. I used a multitmeter to conduct a continuity test on the wheels/drivers. 

Some websites suggest installing additional wipers to more wheels/ drivers improve conductivity (which I did not in my case...yet).



e) Adjustment and trial and error (lots of it)-

Last note, I personally find remotoring a big boy is, well hardwork...coaxing the loco to run after re-motoring requires PLENTY MUCH of FINE re-adjustment and trail-and-error. It took me a whole month to make the loco just run.

Reminds of the days when I was trying to convince my first girlfriend to be my date...hard work and lots of coaxing...those were the days decades ago.



f) What's next?

Next step for me will be fitting with the Faulhaber (if it arrives at all), I have seen AMAZING videos on youtube of remotoring using this said motor. 

I will be fitting in an MRC heavy steam decoder probably in the loco body when the decoder arrives. Personally, I don't think this loco warrants a Tsunami as its not running like a Proto 2K articulated.



Thank you for patience and listening to my waffles. 



Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to ALL 

Best Greetings from Singapore

Musicwerks
AKA Kiong


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## norgale

Very good explanation Kiong. Thanks for the pictures too. Well done. Pete


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## musicwerks

Now some videos of the remotored train

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkINSRnOFJc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omiW2DSFcM8

I will probably airbrush the Big Boy to look like the Proto 2K 2-8-8-2 parking on the RIP track...well once after all the mechanical locomotion and DCC are done


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## musicwerks

Updates on Rivarossi Big Boy Remotoring.

The Faulhaber motor is lost in transit from USA. The ebay merchant has refunded me. 

This is bad news as my Big Boy project has been put on hold indefinitely for 2 months plus.:smilie_daumenneg:


The good news is I have searched the Faulhaber website and saw its agent in Singapore. I have placed an order with the local agent for a new Faulhaber 2224 SR motor which will arrive in 4 weeks. Alas, I should have purchased it from the local agent in Singapore in the first place!

Meanwhile, I have sent my burnt decoders back to Digitrax USA and they are replacing them for me FOC smilie_daumenpos: Digitrax)

I am still trying to figure out how to DCC the Big Boy w/o frying the decoder.

Musicwerks


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## norgale

Send the Big Boy to Digitrax and ask them to do it. Pete


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## musicwerks

norgale said:


> Send the Big Boy to Digitrax and ask them to do it. Pete


Hi Pete,

You are saying Digitrax does ddc installation for a paid fee for customers? That's great

Cheers
Kiong


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## norgale

Send them an email and ask them if they will do this for you. I'm sure I've read where they will. Pete


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## rrgrassi

Musicwerks, get the 12 volt version. 2224-UO12xx The 2224-UO24xx is the 24volt version, which makes the locomotive run at 1/2 the speed.


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## musicwerks

rrgrassi said:


> Musicwerks, get the 12 volt version. 2224-UO12xx The 2224-UO24xx is the 24volt version, which makes the locomotive run at 1/2 the speed.


Yeap, the sale person says it 12VDC, the problem is the chap disappeared after I told him I only wanted to order 1 unit to try out.


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## rrgrassi

musicwerks said:


> Yeap, the sale person says it 12VDC, the problem is the chap disappeared after I told him I only wanted to order 1 unit to try out.


Wow. Pretty bad customer service! Does that dealer have an online store? Or, you only need one to replace a burned out unit?


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## musicwerks

rrgrassi said:


> Wow. Pretty bad customer service! Does that dealer have an online store? Or, you only need one to replace a burned out unit?


I need a new unit to remotor the Big Boy. Currently, I am using a Mabuchi which has too high a stall current of 3 Amps...so I can't DCC it....well not that I know how to DCC Rivarossi Big Boy yet...

The good news is the Faulhaber salesman got back to me today and he will be ordering one for me, and this time, I am not afraid of lost mail..cos its from Faulhaber directly :smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos:

Norgale, I have checked with Digitrax, they don't provide DCC installation svc... 

Now, I can only wait patiently.


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## norgale

Sorry I was wrong about that musicwerks, I could have sworn I read that somewhere on here. Well I hope you can get your remotor done soon and maybe someone will step up and help you with the decoder install. I would suggest that you get onto the Digitrax forum where the guys discuss these problems all day long. Surely somebody there could be of assistance to you. Pete


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## musicwerks

norgale said:


> Sorry I was wrong about that musicwerks, I could have sworn I read that somewhere on here. Well I hope you can get your remotor done soon and maybe someone will step up and help you with the decoder install. I would suggest that you get onto the Digitrax forum where the guys discuss these problems all day long. Surely somebody there could be of assistance to you. Pete


Its all cool mate...no worries.


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## rrgrassi

Musicwerks, you will like the Faulhaber. When you do a continuity test on the case, the shaft and the leads, there is no connection or continuity, so it is truly electrically isolated.


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## musicwerks

I finally got my Faulhaber. Its a well-engineered nice little motor. However, It doesnt seem to run the old big boy well due to the stiffness of the old gear and drive mechanisms. It stalls at times on the tracks

back to the drawing board..


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## rrgrassi

Have you cleaned and lubed all the running gear, including the drive rods? My cab forward was very stiff due to old lube that gummed up. It's now freed up. It took me a few hours to clean it all up. The drive rods were the biggest pain since I had to remove them. Do that one at a time though.


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## Penmaker1

*just did the same re motor*

I just got mine running with a Faulhaber 2224U024SR motor and am VERY pleased with my 1969 Rivarossi 4-8-8-4 Big Boy now. It is very smooth and quiet, I have a few things to tidy up and some previous mechanical issues to sort out. The loco is very smooth and quiet now, it is now an very nice running locomotive and worthy of DCC and Tsunami sound I think. Need to do some cosmetic cleanup and sort the mechanical problems and all will be good. 

Time to look for a 2-8-8-2 or 2-8-8-4 by Rivarossi.

:smilie_daumenpos:


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## blackz28

Any updates on how this is running?


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## musicwerks

blackz28 said:


> Any updates on how this is running?


It's running pretty okay...not as good as a ready made DcC sound one.

It's a lot of hard work. 

A) took out all the gears and lube it, adjust the screws to right tightness so the old gear boxes go easy on the Faulhaber motor. It finally ran relatively okay, but no slow speed runs. I made my own plastic/lead metal jig to house the faulhaber motor, cut off bits of the plastic in the cab to fit the new motor.

I think Faulhaber is good if the train has a newer running gear in relatively good condition, not those old 1970s running gear that can bearly run even on DC.

B) fix the classic wobble buy adjusting the wheels and pivot by stuffing thin plastic cards. 

C) I tested with a cheap DCC sound decoder and it worked before I started using Loksound big boy DCC (I saw the old rivarossi metal chassis into 2 and glued onto the plastic bottom half of chassis to isolate the motor...hard work

D) airbrushed and weathered the loco. Now it's waiting for new decals....

Construction stopped due to lack of interest and time. It should run fine, if I can fire it up, I may do a video

It's hard work and heavy use of resources, buying a brand new big boy is more worth it. 

I will not attempt to DCC any more old Big boys anymore


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