# Yard ladder control panel



## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Hello...kinda new..building a 22ft X 16ft HO scale layout. I have a yard that I will use DPDT switches and bi color led's to control the turnouts..I guess I am not sure where to install the switches and led's to reflect where I want the trains to go. See below...am I making any sense? Thanks!!









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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

I had a yard turnout panel on my previous layout but found that I could control the yard much easier with just DPDT slide switches. It's much easier to control the turnouts locally instead of trying to reference a panel that's away from the tracks. Also, with the DPDT slide switches, signals or frogs can be powered too.
The slide switches can be seen right next to the turnout points.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Are you asking where on the layout the parts go, or where on the control panel?
An you need to tell us what the circles and dots are?


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

The circles are toggle switches...and the dots are the led lights...kind started on it but got stuck...so I'm talking about making the control panel

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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Placement of the switches makes sense to me except the one on the bottom center. When I have a crossover, I generally place the switch on the diagonal between the turnouts that are controlled by the switch. Here’s a shot of a panel for a Ross 4-way and a shot of a partial panel for some crossovers.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

So can u explain what happens when you switch the toggle one way versus the other way? I guess I don't get the concept. 

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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

tommy24a said:


> So can u explain what happens when you switch the toggle one way versus the other way? I guess I don't get the concept.
> 
> Sent from my LGL84VL using Tapatalk


If you throw the toggle one way, the turnout(s) throw that way.

If you throw the toggle the other way, the turnout(s) throw the other way.

For crossovers, since both turnouts must be thrown the same way, it's usual to just use one (toggle) switch to control both turnouts.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> If you throw the toggle one way, the turnout(s) throw that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the switches must be oriented up or down or side to side?

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## lovin it (Nov 21, 2012)

This is one of my ladder sections. The toggle switches by the red and green LED's are for the switch motors. The toggle switches in the middle of each track is for power. I do that because some of my rolling stock have lights and I don't want them on all the time.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

lovin it said:


> This is one of my ladder sections. The toggle switches by the red and green LED's are for the switch motors. The toggle switches in the middle of each track is for power. I do that because some of my rolling stock have lights and I don't want them on all the time.


Very nice...so the one toggle u have in the far upper right corner..which way does it go? Side to side? And when the green light is on which way does train go? Thanks!!

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## lovin it (Nov 21, 2012)

Toggles go up or down and the LED will light for the direction of the switch.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

So the turnout to the left of the far right one I see has green red green led. How does that switch work?

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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

tommy24a said:


> So the switches must be oriented up or down or side to side?
> 
> Sent from my LGL84VL using Tapatalk


Whatever makes sense to you and/or your operators.

Usually the toggles are installed so that it's obvious which direction it's throwing the turnout - i.e. if your diagram runs left-right, the toggle will throw up-down so that if the toggle is thrown to the top, the matching turnout should be thrown so the the train would go into the top track on the diagram. To route the train into the lower track, throw the toggle to the down position. (The position of the toggle is towards the track the turnout is routed for.)


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## lovin it (Nov 21, 2012)

It is a double crossover and out of sight to the left are two toggle switches that control which direction you want to go coming into the double crossover. If the train is coming in on the lower track and you want it to cross over to the top line then you throw the bottom toggle switch and the top red LED light will go on. If the train is coming in on the top line and you want it to go to the bottom line then throw the top toggle switch and the bottom red LED will light. Hope that helps.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I would look closely at how you are going to use the yard and then see if you can use programmed routes. One push of a button and all the appropriate turnouts set to the desired position. Then you can use green LED's to highlight the route and red for everything else. much easier than having to manually scan to see it everything is right.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> Whatever makes sense to you and/or your operators.
> 
> 
> 
> Usually the toggles are installed so that it's obvious which direction it's throwing the turnout - i.e. if your diagram runs left-right, the toggle will throw up-down so that if the toggle is thrown to the top, the matching turnout should be thrown so the the train would go into the top track on the diagram. To route the train into the lower track, throw the toggle to the down position. (The position of the toggle is towards the track the turnout is routed for.)


Thanks! Feel like an idiot asking all these questions...thanks again!

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Route control*



Lemonhawk said:


> I would look closely at how you are going to use the yard and then see if you can use programmed routes. One push of a button and all the appropriate turnouts set to the desired position. Then you can use green LED's to highlight the route and red for everything else. much easier than having to manually scan to see it everything is right.




Tommy24a; 

Don't feel "like an idiot" for asking questions. We are here to help, and an actual idiot wouldn't know enough to ask questions. The fact that you are asking for help understanding something that is unfamiliar to you, shows that you are intelligent. not idiotic.

I strongly agree with Lemonhawk's suggestion above. I use route control for the yards on my layout. It does make things very easy, and it is simple enough that any visiting operator can understand and use it easily. 

There have been many articles published in Model Railroader magazine about various route control circuits. Which circuit will suit your layout will depend on what type of switch machines you are using. If your turnouts are operated by twin-coil machines, like those made by Atlas and Peco, then push-buttons and a simple diode matrix will work. Use a capacitive discharge system (CDU) to protect the coils from burnout.

From the toggle switches in the prior responses, I assume that the panels shown control DC stall motors. If you use some DC stall motor, like a Tortoise machine, then the electronics can get more complicated. Some folks have used digital electronic sequencer circuits. I prefer a much simpler system that uses one rotary switch, a bunch of diodes, and a split, uneven voltage, power supply.
(see photos.) The one rotary switch controls all the motors needed to route the train onto the selected track. I didn't use LED panel indicators, since they weren't needed. The orange stripe on the knob makes it obvious which track has been selected. You could add LEDs if you want to. I like to keep things simple.
(By the way, the white panel on the left is not part of the track selection system. It controls the four sets of motorized doors, and the lights of the engine house above, and slightly to the left of that white control panel.)
I copied my route control method from a Model Railroader article. If you are interested, and are using DC motors to operate your turnouts, I can look it up and give you more information on the system I use. 

have fun;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Well quite a setup there....I do plan on the tortoise switch route...but at this point I will take what ever suggestions that anyone has into consideration...so far I have some small DPDT switches, bunch of bi color led's with holders. My grown Son and I are doing this layout and have plenty to learn. We have NCE power cab, and a 5 amp booster. We ran the buss wire and have it split into 3 different power zones each protected by a circuit breaker. Also have small feeder blocks to run feeder wire from. We just started the sub roadbed cookie cutter design.









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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm kind of late to the party, but I'f you haven't sunk any real money into this yet, you might want to look at the turnout control systems from Tam Valley Depot (my preferred supplier) or Walthers. They are essentially the same. A miniature servo motor drives the turnout points, and a selector push button activates it. Two LEDs are displayed: a green one for the selected route, and a red one for the non-selected route. This makes it super easy to visually see which route is selected, and because it's push button activated, you don't have to try to see which direction things need to be thrown.

Here is a picture of a control board made using the Tam Valley products.









And a close up of the mounted push button assembly.

You will have to excuse the rough nature of the track diagram. It was made by my then 10 year old son.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Interesting...I will definitely look into this. Thanks!

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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Are the "bi color" LED's the 2 lead variety, or do they have more than 2 leds. The reason is that the 2 lead bi color LEDs can just go in series with the stall motor (circuitron, switchmaster) turnout motors to indicate the turnout position.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

They have 2 leads.

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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

tommy24a said:


> They have 2 leads.
> 
> Sent from my LGL84VL using Tapatalk


This diagram shows 2 switches but the wiring is the same for just one. So I guess this will work Not?









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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Route control*



tommy24a said:


> Well quite a setup there....I do plan on the tortoise switch route...but at this point I will take what ever suggestions that anyone has into consideration...so far I have some small DPDT switches, bunch of bi color led's with holders. My grown Son and I are doing this layout and have plenty to learn. We have NCE power cab, and a 5 amp booster. We ran the buss wire and have it split into 3 different power zones each protected by a circuit breaker. Also have small feeder blocks to run feeder wire from. We just started the sub roadbed cookie cutter design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





tommy24a;

It looks like you have your DCC power/control system well in hand. You should have no trouble with it. The Tortoise is an excellent switch machine. I used the black Hankscraft motors in my photo because I had bought them at a very good price years ago, and had plenty of them on hand. The photo makes things look more complicated than they are.
Due to physical disability, I'm trying to avoid any under-the-layout maintenance. The result is a lot of electric stuff crowded into a small space behind the fascia. Normally the motors would be mounted with one directly under each turnout. 
If you already have DPDT switches, then you may want to build a traditional, non-route control, panel like those shown in the prior responses. The DPDT toggles could operate either Tortoise motors, or the servos suggested by CTValley. Either would work well. 
If your'e not committed to having multiple DPDT switches, with each switch operating one turnout; then the single rotary switch, route control, system would also work with either Tortoise motors, or servos.

Good luck with whatever you chose to use;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks for the tips...my confusion comes in with switch and led placement that makes sense...n my ladder in theory the train can come in from both directions...or do most people run trains to store in the ladder from one direction..I know these are dumb questions...see ladder below









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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Disclaimer: I mean nothing negative toward all those who have the know how to run all the complex electronics and make these panels nor anyone craving them. I too built a panel in the 1950s with toggles and schematic of my (ugh) brass Atlas snap track 4x8 layout well before DCC was even a concept, when we needed blocks to isolate and turn off and on, engines..So..
Assuming one is in DCC, and though they can look great and proto, why even have a panel ? Huge, miles long division point thru-yards with 43 remote powered switches (TOs) have a tower or two with huge panels with selector switches and lights. 
But what Tommy has here is small stub-end flat yard. TOs in these are thrown manually at the TOs by a switch man via, of course, their ground throws.
And since this is a home layout where Tom will likely be running it alone, and not a huge club layout, why not just shunt cars whatever way, using a tethered throttle right at the yard, and throw switches via ground throws like the 1:1 scale does ? The local 'yard office' doesn't have a panel..It has a list of what car is where, and handled by the yard goat..Engines can be left idling or shut down at will by their addresses when the crew goes for beans..M


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

No offense taken..different strokes as they say...my son and I are pure geeks..been in the IT field for over 30 years...and son has also been in the IT field for 8 plus....its more or less his layout at his house...but we do like the fact of controlled switches. We ruled out controlling them with DCC but decided on the simple toggle method. You do make some good points. Thanks for your input.

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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Tommy24a, that's the right diagram for wiring in the diodes. I think the switch machine has an internal resistor so you don't need one, but I sure would start with 500 ohms and work my way down until everything works. You lose a voltage with each diode you add. If you need to add more diodes then you could connect them in parallel but then I wound definitely use 1k resistor.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback lemonhawk!

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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Here is another pic of my yard. I want to use toggle switches and bi colored led's. Kinda confused on light and switch placement that makes sense. Anyone have a suggestion?








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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Tommy

The simplest way to control your yard turnouts 
would be with the Stapleton 751 series switches.
They are available for either twin coil or stall motor
turnouts and include feeds for red/green LEDs.

The twin coil version includes a built in Capacitor
Discharge Unit to protect against burnout.

I use a diode matrix system for my yards, however.
You have one button IN each yard spur. Push it and
all turnouts are set for a clear path. You would not
need LEDs with this system.

Don


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Never heard of those. But I definitely will check them out. Thanks!!

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Light & switch placement*



tommy24a said:


> Here is another pic of my yard. I want to use toggle switches and bi colored led's. Kinda confused on light and switch placement that makes sense. Anyone have a suggestion?
> View attachment 495336
> 
> 
> Sent from my LGL84VL using Tapatalk




tommy24a;


The normal placement is based on the 'Y' shape of a "turnout", as drawn on your control panel. For each turnout, mount a toggle switch near the point where the two lines forming the 'Y' meet. The switch should be mounted so that the handle of the toggle switch leans toward one of those two lines when the toggle switch is set to select that track. Flipping the handle the opposite way should have it closer to, and sort of "pointing at" the other track of that same 'Y'.
Do the same for each 'Y' on your control panel's track diagram. 
The switches don't have to be toggle switches. Slide switches would work equally well. I don't know which type of switch you are planning to use. Like the toggle's handle, the sliding handle of the slide switch should move toward the desired track when it is operated. This handle position alone would indicate which track the turnout was set for, so LEDs are not strictly necessary.

If you just want to use LEDs for their neat looks, then one LED should be mounted right into the middle of each of the two lines diverging from the 'Y'. They should be about 2"-3" further away from the 'Y's meeting point. than the switch. 
They should be far enough from the switch to both leave room for your fingers to operate the toggle switch, and far enough along the track line to make it obvious which of the two tracks that LED represents. 

Next, all you need to do is wire all this stuff together! There are two methods. The simplest, but least accurate, is to operate the LEDs with one side of your DPDT switch and the Tortoise with the other side. This can be done with either the +/- power supply described further on, or a triple-pole-double-throw (TPDT) switch. However all the LEDs really indicate, when wired this way, is the position of the toggle switch; not necessarily the position of the turnout. The Tortoise helps with that. It has a built-in micro-switch that can be wired back to your panel's LEDs. They will then show the position of the Tortoise, which should be the same as the turnout's position. 
I suggest connecting one wire lead of each LED to the "common terminal of each micro-switch. Which of the two LED wire leads may need to be reversed to get the right green and red indications. The Normally open, and normally closed, terminals of all the micro-switches would carry positive and negative voltages. One of the wires of each LED should be grounded, along with the power supply. Use a center-tapped transformer with the center tap grounded and a diode on each of the outer terminals. Use a filter capacitor between the output end of each diode and the grounded center tap. The diodes should face opposite ways. Also if you use electrolytic capacitors, they will need to face opposite directions too. This will give you two filtered DC outputs, one positive, with respect to ground, and the other negative, with respect to ground. As each Tortoise operates it will trip the micro-switches and change the input of the LED from positive to negative, which will change the color. 

good luck, have fun;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Ahh ok now things are starting to make sense to me. Thank you so much for the great detailed answer to my questions. Having someone describe in detail makes all the difference. Thanks again!!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Trains entering yard*



tommy24a said:


> Ahh ok now things are starting to make sense to me. Thank you so much for the great detailed answer to my questions. Having someone describe in detail makes all the difference. Thanks again!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




tommy24a;

One of your questions I didn't answer concerns how trains enter a yard. First of all, the diagrams of your yard only show one ladder, at one end of all the yard tracks. For this reason, I don't understand what you mean when you say that, "Trains can enter from either direction." They can't. Not without another ladder at the opposite end of those same yard tracks. Perhaps you mean that trains can enter the yard either "locomotive end first", or "caboose end first?" Normally trains back into a "stub" ( single ladder) yard like yours. There were exceptions though. If a freight train had a caboose then that would be uncoupled and shunted onto a caboose track for cleaning and servicing. The "road" locomotive(s) would also be uncoupled and sent to a service track for coal, water, sand, diesel fuel, or whatever repairs were needed. the actual switching of freight cars was usually done by a switcher locomotive, permanently assigned to the yard.
Hope that helps you. For much more information on freight and passenger yard operations, I recommend the excellent book "Track planning for realistic operation" by John Armstrong. You can order a copy from https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/products/books 

"The only dumb questions are unasked questions"

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks traction fan...I am sure I am not explaining myself correctly..see track plan.









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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Still a stub yard*



tommy24a said:


> Thanks traction fan...I am sure I am not explaining myself correctly..see track plan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tommy24a;


Yes, I see how a train traveling either direction around the main line loop can get to the entrance of the yard. However all trains will still end up at that same entry track, and enter the actual yard tracks from that same point. The only difference, as far as entering the yard tracks would be which way the train was facing when it got to the entrance of the yard throat. 

 Two other observations, for whatever they're worth. (not much)

First, I see a long, single-track, main line with only two widely-spaced, passing sidings. You might consider adding another passing siding, or two. Your train operations will be more interesting if you have more spots where trains can get past each other, with one train on the siding, waiting for a "meet" with another, superior, train.

Second, and sort of conflicting, Your plan has an awful lot of turnouts. While this is common on new modeler's track plans, it's VERY expensive! :rippedhand: 
Decent quality turnouts, like Peco, retail for about $30 ea. Tortoise motors retail for almost $20 ea. That's a potential cost of $50 per turnout! Multiply that by the number of turnouts on your track plan (my rough count is 20) and you will be spending a thousand dollars on turnouts and switch motors! Now there are discounts available on new turnouts and switch motors, and even lower prices on E-bay, so you may not be spending the full $1000. However, turnouts and switch motors are still two of the most expensive items on any model railroad; generally second in cost only to locomotives. It pays to minimize the overall number of turnouts, and use them where they will do the most operational good. 

Still, it's your railroad, and your budget, so it's your decision.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

All great points...being new I did not pick up on that...thanks!

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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Traction fan...look at my proposed switch and led placement..how does it look to you? Circle are toggles and green dots are led's

Thanks!









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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Below is how my physical panel looked like back when I had a physical panel.


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Looks good thanks!

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Switches & lights*



tommy24a said:


> Traction fan...look at my proposed switch and led placement..how does it look to you? Circle are toggles and green dots are led's
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...




tommy24a;

The placement of your toggle switches and LEDs looks fine. 

You might consider eliminating the diagonal track on the far right side of your photo, and re-using it's two turnouts to create an additional passing siding out along the main line. The diagonal track does not appear to serve any particular purpose, since there is a parallel route through the yard ladder to the left. Alternatively, this is a spot where two turnouts, four LEDs, and two toggle switches, could all be eliminated, to save money, if that's a concern for you. Also the crossover, shown between the yard ladder track and the unnecessary diagonal track, is another duplication, and potential turnout/money saver. This crossover is in the middle of a "drill track" or passing siding. The turnouts at the two ends of this passing siding, let a train get onto either track that the crossover does, without the crossover. That translates into either money saved, or another passing siding out along the main.

regards;
,
Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks for the tips...I am all about saving money! Lol

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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Is this what you mean traction? Am 8 missing an led at the bottom?









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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*That's right*



tommy24a said:


> Is this what you mean traction? Am 8 missing an led at the bottom?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Tommy24a;

Yes, your latest re-draw, above, deletes the four turnouts I suggested. You don't have any LEDs on the string of turnouts that form the ladder. I suggest putting one near the top and another on the bottom, ends of the turnout string (which is the actual "ladder.") Without them, what would indicate that those 
top and bottom turnouts were set for the ladder? 

I can understand about saving money. That's one of the reasons I make my own turnouts, for $5 ea. instead of buying ready-made turnouts for $25-$30 ea. There is a catch though. You save lots of money, but have to invest lots more time. The first part of the top attached file gives a detailed breakdown of the cost of materials, and tells you what tools you would need. The rest of it is a step-by-step description of how to do it. I don't know what your time/money situation is, or whether you have any interest in making turnouts, rather than buying. With 20 turnouts, that would save about $400-$600.
I think your layout will be much more fun to operate with at least one more passing siding. That will mean re-locating, rather than saving the cost of, two turnouts but, in my opinion, it would be worth it.
The other file below talks about saving money on model railroad items in general.

I have a question about your track plan. There is a nice loop in the center, that does a lot to extend your main line. I don't understand the very close proximity between the two curved tracks at the bottom of the loop. I would think the possibility of fitting some scenery between these tracks would help with the illusion that the train is actually traveling to a far away destination, rather than obviously doubling back to where it just came from. I would treat the two sides of that loop as separate scenes, with a double-sided backdrop between them. Perhaps two separate towns where the trains stop at stations and/or serve industries. Either, (or both) of these scenes would be a good location for that/(those) passing siding(s) I recommended.
Another question concerns the right side of your track plan. There are a lot of "spurs" (sidings with a turnout at only one end.) over in that area. What was your intended reason for these spurs? (I see this spot as another place where some turnouts might be saved. ) 

Your choice of course.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment How I scratch build turnouts new(8).pdf


View attachment MODEL RAILROADING ON A BUDGET.pdf


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## tommy24a (Mar 4, 2016)

Thanks for the help!...much to think about...you give me many choices and ideas...have to take a hard look at the plan and see what I can come up with...first time at track design...not carved in stone...lol

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