# New layout ideas...brainstorming



## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Hello all. New to the forum. I’ve been working on this layout for about 4 years now. It’s 7x4. There’s some things I wish I’d done different but at the time I was having fun just laying down track in the space I had. Well now I pretty much have unlimited space, after we moved. I’m thinking a u shaped layout. 11’ wide, 2 feet deep in center with maybe 4x3 or 4x2 ends for big loops. I’m trying to get away from the tight turns and be more open. Long main and I like the idea of running 2 trains at once and still being able to play in yard and sidings.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

This is the space it will be going in. Cabinet will move.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

In the Layout Design forum, under the Model Train Workshop area, you will find a pair of sticky threads showing both members layouts and various layout design ideas. These may be helpful.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> This is the space it will be going in. Cabinet will move.



nsmustang55ol;

Nice to have more space! 😊 You might consider running your layout along some, or all of the walls of your new space, and leaving the middle of the room empty. This will make it easy to "get away from the tight turns" since the corners will automatically provide room enough for wider turns. If you can't use all four walls, then you're right, you will need wider sections at the ends to house return loops. My own N-scale layout is basically this shape. It is made up of 4' long sections (highly recommended!) There is a diagram of my layout in the "Layout Design" section of this forum. Its at the end of the tread "Here are the Layouts of some forum members." The files below outline the basic choices every model railroader encounters, and offers suggestions for your consideration.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Yea we’re wanting to keep it along that back wall. We use the other space for working out and motorcycle storage. I’m coming up with the table plans now and plan to start tear down when I’m off next week.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

nsmustang55ol said:


> Hello all. New to the forum. I’ve been working on this layout for about 4 years now. It’s 7x4. There’s some things I wish I’d done different but at the time I was having fun just laying down track in the space I had. Well now I pretty much have unlimited space, after we moved. I’m thinking a u shaped layout. 11’ wide, 2 feet deep in center with maybe 4x3 or 4x2 ends for big loops. I’m trying to get away from the tight turns and be more open. Long main and I like the idea of running 2 trains at once and still being able to play in yard and sidings.


Current layout, looking pretty darned good. 

*New Layout Advice:*
Curves: Build with the absolute largest radii you can make fit and work. Trains look REAL good going around large radius curves. Anybody that's ever seen N-scale trains running on almost 40" radius curves on N-Trak layouts will know what I'm talking about. You won't regret it.
Turnouts: Use the absolute largest turnouts you can fit in the space. Yards or mainline doesn't matter, the bigger the better. Trains look REAL good on large turnouts, and operate EVEN BETTER YET. You won't regret it.

That's my "new layout" advice and I'm sticking to it.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Heck yea. Here’s where I’m at now. Pretty sure the main will be something like this. Not sure on the sidings just yet. I usually just make the main on the table and go from there. The highlighted track is elevated to crossover the track at grade. I really prefer sidings to be outside of the mains, to me it’s easier to get roads too. The double crossover will allow two trains to run on seperate loops or if it’s straight one long double look basically. But meh. don’t beat me up too much.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

nsmustang55ol said:


> Heck yea. Here’s where I’m at now. Pretty sure the main will be something like this. Not sure on the sidings just yet. I usually just make the main on the table and go from there. The highlighted track is elevated to crossover the track at grade. I really prefer sidings to be outside of the mains, to me it’s easier to get roads too. The double crossover will allow two trains to run on seperate loops or if it’s straight one long double look basically. But meh. don’t beat me up too much.


Hmmm, looks pretty good to me.  I don't think I can beat you up at all on this.

Bummer. I'll have to go look for some other prey to beat up.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I think you are getting a lot out the space you have without there being too much crammed into it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Welcome to the site.
I give a 's up to your current layout too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Mixed Freight said:


> Bummer. I'll have to go look for some other prey to beat up.


I can think of one.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

New layout looks interesting...I would try to fit in a passing
siding more convenient to the switching area with all
of the spurs. You'll need to push cars in as well as
back them.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Yea. The Spurs are kind of up in the air right now. the track looks crammed but I have to keep reminding myself of the size and the spacing isn’t scale in the drawing. It will prolblsbly not be crammed as it looks.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Stayed up late last night. Kiddos helped me for a few hours before they went to bed. Then I kept going. foam should be going on tomorrow. Ended up with a 5x3 right side and a 42”x2.5’ left side. 2’ deep in middle. Over all width is 11’4”. Built it in 3 sections JUST INCASE. It ever has to move. Shout out to Lowe’s. They provided the leg material for free!!! From their scrap pile.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Nice work. If it turns out anything like your last layout it will be phenomenal.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

It looks very sturdy and well made!


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Got some 3/8” ply for the top and 2” foam to go on top. When kids get home we will get after it. Goal this evening have foam glued and weighted down. Problably till Friday. And also the old layout tear down starts tomorrow


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> Got some 3/8” ply for the top and 2” foam to go on top. When kids get home we will get after it. Goal this evening have foam glued and weighted down. Problably till Friday. And also the old layout tear down starts tomorrow


nsmustang55ol;

Your benchwork looks good, though way overbuilt. That won't hurt anything though. I have one suggestion for your Masonite backdrop panels. Curve the corners. Masonite warps and if submerged in hot water can be bent to a curved shape pretty easily. If you have access to a hot tub, that's ideal. Failing that, a bathtub full of hot water will work. Only the ends of the sheets, that now form 90 degree corners, need to be soaked, and warped. Its pretty hard to disguise that 90 degree corner in the sky. A curve improves the appearance 100%. I have used this warping idea not only on some backdrops, like the "forested" one to the left of the mansion in the first photo, but also on the fascia boards of my own layout. (see photos) Its made of 1/8" Luan plywood, rather than Masonite, but the principal is the same.

Traction Fan


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Agh yes I thought to curve the corners but the plan is to have mountains that go up to the corners. but I may still curve them. Do you think I need the plywood? Or just use the 2” foam?

OVERBUILT!?!!! I was worried it wasnt built enough lol.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

LOL! You could climb on top of what you have built!!! It's done very nicely!! I tend to overbuild my stuff too, especially work benches. I like to use solid core doors with 2x6 framework. That'll hold up to just about anything I can try to do on my workbench


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> Agh yes I thought to curve the corners but the plan is to have mountains that go up to the corners. but I may still curve them. Do you think I need the plywood? Or just use the 2” foam?
> 
> OVERBUILT!?!!! I was worried it wasn't built enough lol.


It might be a tad "underbuilt" if you plan to run prototype, 12" to the foot scale, trains over it, but it will support any model trains from Z-scale up to live steam scales! Given the, shall we say "significantly robust" structure you have built, plywood is not necessary. A sheet of extruded foam 1"-2" thick will be fine as a layout base. You could do the mountain thing in one corner, but both? Won't that look a little too convenient? Maybe one corner could be a very tall building, instead of a mountain? 

Or, better yet, curve the sky.

You can add the curves on top of the existing backdrops if that's easier. Use 1/8" MDF board instead of the (I think tempered, from the color) Masonite. MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) is available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Sometimes called "hardboard."
It is porous, and warps very easily. Much more easily than tempered Masonite. You'll need two square pieces, the same height as your present backdrop. Before soaking them, sand the two sides that will mate to your Masonite panels at a 30-45 degree angle. This, when butted to the existing backdrop, will minimize the joint line between them. Adding some drywall mud can make the joint all but invisible. Warp the two "curved corner" MDF squares and clamp them into place while they are still wet. Use rope, full paint cans, clamps, or whatever, to hold them in the curved shape until they dry overnight. Then glue the joints, clamp again, and add the mud, and paint as needed.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

There's nothing overbuilt about using 1x4 for benchwork. It's been a standard for decades. It is very sturdy without the weight of 2x4, and yes, you can climb on it as many of us must do when laying track.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Too late!!! Lol. The wood was cheap enough. And yea I’m 280 lbs and just laid down on top of it. Lol. Wood work complete. Foam about to go on. Behind the layout at frame height there’s a metal C purlin that runs left to right. I picked the height based on that. Plan on getting some small clamps to clamp back to wall underneath.

As far as a mountain in both corners, your right. The plan is 2 big 2 level loops on the left. Through a tunnel in a mountain. The right side will be the industry side. A tall building would look good.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Phew. Done till Friday. Possibly Monday.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> There's nothing overbuilt about using 1x4 for benchwork. It's been a standard for decades. It is very sturdy without the weight of 2x4, and yes, you can climb on it as many of us must do when laying track.


MichaelE;

In my opinion, smaller lumber, formed into L-girders, would be a better option. Certainly people can use 2 x 4s and 1 x 4s to support a model train layout, but why do so. Its way more than is needed to support the model railroad, it makes the layout heavy, and the larger wood is even a little bit more expensive. You, like every other modeler, are free to disagree, and use whatever size wood you want.

Again in my opinion, model railroad benchwork should be designed with enough access that it is never necessary to climb up on top of it. (though 1x3 & 1x2 L-girder, and even the 1/4" Luan foam-filled box girder, shown below, are quite capable of supporting a grown man's weight.) Opinions vary, of course. I've heard of "old school" Lionel O-gage train clubs that commonly had their members clamber over the finished railroad to reach the many "gopher hole" control stations used for their "tower control" layout.
Climbing on top of a layout is not for me. As I'm disabled, I doubt that I even could climb on top of a layout & crawl around, even if I had a layout on which it was possible to crawl on.*
If climbing around on top of your railroad is good for you, have at it. Your railroad, your rules.


* My layout is 16" high and 16" deep, in most spots. (see photo 3 ) I'm 6'-6" and 290lbs, so I don't think I could fit on top of my railroad, and If I tried, the railroad would be destroyed and it wouldn't do me any good either! 😕

Traction Fan


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Updates. Installed the curved inner sections. Made them removable just incase it has to come apart. Braced the corners of backdrop. Working on the hardboard to curve the corners. Temporary power station installed. Got a train running on a loop and kids and I screwed around w the KATO track. The track you see is all recycled from old layout. We soaked and scrubbed all the ballast off. I took apart every turnout and cleaned it out and bench tested for switching, power, and rolling stock over it. We still have a 5 gallon bucket full of KATO track that’s soaking right now. What you see is probably not even a quarter of what we have. And I have 30 pieces of flex on the way...lol. Problably save KATO track for a staging yard or something. Anywho here’s some pics. Oh and also finally framed my door way out from big shop to add on.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Progress is being made,  

That work area is much too clean. 

Magic


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Too late to beat up on you. My major concern is I don't believe you will be able to reach the tracks in the corners without climbing on the table or using a skyhook harness to fly over it. 30" from the table edge is about maximum reach distance. Putting it inside a mountain as well is sure to result in major downtime. Railroading Murphy's law says that most derails, shorts and dirty track will ocur on the least accessible track.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I feel ya on that, it’s not for certain if there will be a mountain or just a cliff side. So possibly no tunnel. Also i plan on doin the scenery in the corners first. I’ve been on top of this table on the ends. And corners. I just set a scrap piece of foam down and it doesn’t damage the table top foam. I had to get back there for backdrop bracing. Also I don’t plan on the turns going the deep into the corner. It’s just what I have right now with the KATO track. Most of layout will be flex track. Kids already want a staging yard against the window lol. We have enough scrap wood and foam left over to do it, not to mention track. May build It to where it can be removed easily so we can work on it at the kitchen table or sumn. Prolly use manual turnouts for it


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

OK then let me throw out a couple other observations/ suggestions then: Not burying the track in the corners and using larger radius curves are good ideas, but there will still need to be reach access for day to day maintenance: track cleaning, retrieving trains that decide to jump the track, general dusting, etc. Switching to flex track is also a good idea, especially if you combine it with good planning software to create accurate track plans with known radius turns with easements (easements are very important for realistic operation vs toy train look of sectional track and reducing derailments). Easements are where the radius of a turn increases as it transitions into a straight or reverse curve. Easements are everywhere: highways, train tracks in real life, think of how the entrance and exit ramps of an interstate change radius. Without easements the train and passengers would get a "whip" effect throwing them, and anything not attached, across the car at the transition. This whip effect is used on ammusement rides like roller coasters, wild mouse and whip rides. You can mechanically draw easements into full size track plans the old school way by using a long flexible thin rod or stick, stopping the track centerlines short of the junction. Holding a section of one end of the rod along the centerline of the straight section, and curving the rest until it smoothly aligns with the centerline of the curve, and tracing the easement path, but today's software can do it for you as well as warning you if you plan too tight a radius for your equipment, determine slopes of hills, vertical clearance at crossovers, increasing separations of parallel curves so equipment doesn't collide when passing, and many other useful functions. I use and recommend Xtrackcad, it's free, runs on all platforms except phones, popular so help from the developers and users is very available, and you can print out full sized trackplans you can trace or build over. The learning curve is fairly easy to grasp. Get the kids involved it's like learning a video game to them! (disclaimer: I have no connection to this software other than a very satisfied user) You can even plan with accurate drawings of you sectional track and/or combine with flex track if you want, altho I'd save the sectional track for your staging yard.
Back to your layout: You can build tunnels and mountains as long as you cut hidden access holes in your baseboard large enough to see and reach everything inside from underneath,and/ or build lift out cover sections.
Finally for now, just in a quick review of your track plan you don't seem to have any way to reverse the travel direction of a train or engine. You want to have at least one reverse loop for that purpose otherwise you may end up with a boring layout or no way to reach certain tracks, a dead end or box canyon effect. You don't want to back trains for any distance, that's a sure way to cause derailments.
Yard design, staging or classification is a whole topic in itself, Do you homework on that. Remember staging yards are not storage yards. Almost my entire lower level is dedicated to my staging yard, and I redesigned that arrangement even more than the upper level.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

if I have one reversing loop. Wouldn’t I need a 2nd one somewhere?


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> if I have one reversing loop. Wouldn’t I need a 2nd one somewhere?


Generally speaking yes, no way to get back to the original direction without a second loop.
Unless you have a passing siding and want to uncouple the power and have some way to turn it.

Magic


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Typically yes, but it may be possible to route traffic into it from each direction, I'd have to play with that idea. My layout actually has 3, they can be part of a layout section, doesn't need to be a dedicated single balloon track. The most common reverse loop is simply a diagonal connection across an oval. You can also use a Y reverse and/or a turntable to reverse just the loco.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I can hide a loop in the future staging yard. And design another one into the current layout. I’m learning about easement curves now. I did a scale drawing of one on some graph paper, not to bad. But I have a question. How do you do an easement when the two joining tracks are not 90 or 180 degrees to each other ? Like if the 2 tracks are 30 degrees or something. Just let the flex track do it’s thing?


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Is it possible to have a yard inside a reverse loop? Dead end tracks .


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

nsmustang55ol said:


> I can hide a loop in the future staging yard. And design another one into the current layout. I’m learning about easement curves now. I did a scale drawing of one on some graph paper, not to bad. But I have a question. How do you do an easement when the two joining tracks are not 90 or 180 degrees to each other ? Like if the 2 tracks are 30 degrees or something. Just let the flex track do it’s thing?


Absolutely. That's one way to do it. And a pretty good way, to boot.



nsmustang55ol said:


> Is it possible to have a yard inside a reverse loop? Dead end tracks .


Yes to that, too. Probably more common for passenger terminals. But certainly doable for any yard.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Here is my lower level staging and reverse loop #1. #2, 3 are on upper level. Remember a reverse loop must be long enough to completely hold your longest train.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Mixed Freight said:


> Absolutely. That's one way to do it. And a pretty good way, to boot.
> 
> 
> Yes to that, too. Probably more common for passenger terminals. But certainly doable for any yard.





nsmustang55ol said:


> Is it possible to have a yard inside a reverse loop? Dead end tracks .


nsmustang555ol;

Yes, it is possible to have stub-ended yard tracks inside a reverse loop. However, that arrangement is very uncommon on real railroads. 

There are three ways of turning railroad equipment.


1) What was, & still is, the most common way of turning locomotives, and/or trains, are "wyes." 
A "wye" is a triangular arrangement of three tracks, connected by three turnouts. It lets a locomotive, or in the case of some large wyes, entire trains, perform the same "K-turn" maneuver that you might use to turn your car around on a narrow street. I suggest you look at including a wye at the entrance to your yard. Besides making it possible to turn trains around, it will also let trains easily arrive from, or depart in, either direction.

2) What we modelers call "reversing loops" the prototype folks call "balloon tracks." They are used in certain particular situations, but the large amount of expensive real estate needed to hold them makes them quite uncommon. As Mixed Freight mentioned, some large, busy, passenger terminals had balloon tracks as an easy way to turn an entire train at once.
Another place a balloon track might be used is in areas with heavy snowfall. A balloon track lets a snowplow, and the locomotives pushing it, turn around without backing up. Turning on a wye requires at least two back up maneuvers, where the plow might get stuck. Balloon tracks are hardly ever used to turn entire freight trains as turning the entire train is unnecessary in their normal operations.

3) Turntables, and their accompanying roundhouses, were a fixture of the steam era, and were one means of turning a locomotive & its tender, or certain particular passenger train cars, like observation cars, diners, and RPO express cars. In the last 50 years or so, turntables and roundhouses have been gradually disappearing from the railroad scene. Many diesels can be run in either direction, and those with a definite front end can be reversed on a wye. Diesels don't require anything like the amount of maintenance and supporting infrastructure, or work force, that steam locomotives did, which was the main reason they replaced steam. Their shops are typically rectangular structures so the need for roundhouses has disappeared too, along with turntables.

Good Luck & Have Fun with whatever you choose;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I was thinking that the yard and reverse loop wasn’t going to be “scenic” more of a hidden way to turn around and let the kiddos put trains together without disrupting the layout. Also, the want a separate controller for yard.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Here is the my main level track plan with structures, roads and scenics removed, Reverse loop #2 should be easy to find, reverse loop #3 is more hidden in the industrial trackage in Franklin. I personally prefer reverse loops over wyes or turntables as they allow for continuous running, and when partially hidden or disguised, they can provide for a "surprise" appearance of a train traveling in an unexpected location and/or direction.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Keep in mind you'll need a separate reverse loop controller for
each isolated section.

As to the yard 'inside' a reverse loop; Not a problem, however,
all yard and any other tracks connected to the isolated
section will be an electrical part of the section.

With DCC you can have either wired or wireless (recommended)
hand held controllers. Most systems allow fascia 'jacks' for wired
controllers. You can plug and unplug them as you move about
the layout. Wireless, tho, avoids getting tangled in the
wire. 'You'll need to check what is available
in the brand of DCC system you select.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

So if I have 2 reverse loops, I’ll need 3 controllers!?


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

using controller in this context IMHO is confusing the issue. What is used is an "automatic polarity reverser module" for each reversing section. Most of the newer tech ARs are also circuit breakers (digitrax's once popular AR1 is one of the few holdover old single purpose designs) so they also protect your command station.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> I was thinking that the yard and reverse loop wasn’t going to be “scenic” more of a hidden way to turn around and let the kiddos put trains together without disrupting the layout. Also, the want a separate controller for yard.


That's fine. Whatever works for you. The "yard within a loop" configuration is very common on model railroads, just not on real ones. I have a yard within a loop on my own layout.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Oh. Yes. A reverse module per loop. How does it work if you have Spurs off the loop?

also currently we have a Bachman EZ command DCC that we got with first set years ago. Is it possible to work the yard with it and set up the main layout with another controller?


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

The only polarity reverse that needs to take place is when the train crosses the entrance turnout. After that any included spurs function as normal. The polarity needs to be reversed to correct a direct short in the track. It has nothing to do with the loco's direction or speed which is controlled by the throttle.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Ok. So if I have a huge reverse loop, the turnout that starts the loop gets isolated. Got that. What if you have a turnout off the loop that connects back to the main?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Every yard, spur or other DEAD END track connected to the
isolated section uses the power of the isolated section.
Any track connected to the isolated section
that goes back to the main should have a gap or
insulated joiners where it connects to the isolated
section.

There can be only ONE DCC main controller on
a layout. You cannot use the EZ DCC system as a
2nd controller. Any wired or wireless hand held
must be of the same make as the main controller. However,
some DCC systems will permit use of a DC power pack as a
2nd controller. Consult your owners manual for
wiring instructions.

Don


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Easiest way to decide if you have a reverse loop is to draw a careful trackplan showing both rails. trace over one rail with a red pen, trace the other rail with a blue pen. If you run across a turnout where the red rail runs into the blue rail, you have a reverse loop. the legs will need to be isolated and have a polarity reverser connected to prevent a short.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

nsmustang55ol said:


> Ok. So if I have a huge reverse loop, the turnout that starts the loop gets isolated. Got that. What if you have a turnout off the loop that connects back to the main?


then you have 2 reverse loops.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It is always touch and go to suggest reverse loop situations
absent a track drawing. My posts are based on what
the OP has said or asked in his posts. 

Don


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

scenicsRme said:


> then you have 2 reverse loops.


Ummm.......... I disagree with that. The way I read it, you still have only one big reverse loop. You have merely added another location that needs insulated rail joiners.




DonR said:


> It is always touch and go to suggest reverse loop situations
> absent a track drawing. My posts are based on what
> the OP has said or asked in his posts.
> Don


Yes. Agreed.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

This is what I got so far. In no way, shape or form is this a plan. Just screwing around l. I know we want 2 mains, I like the yard siding with the dead end track to get off the main. Any other ideas,changes, suggestions? I don’t know where to put a crossover to get to the inner main. I have a double crossover that’s trouble free but I heard their in realistic.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Or better yet!!! Have a run around yard with a reverse loop built in...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Looking at your drawing...you have ONE reverse loop in the lower right and within it is
a yard. This is very simple. Use a gap or insulated joiners in both tracks below the
turnout that creates the 'reverse loop'. The yard tracks inside it
are therefore a part of the 'reverse loop' and take the same
output of the 'reverse' device.

For clarification...a DCC layout has only ONE DCC controller. However,
a reverse loop requires a device to automatically match phase (polarity).
This device is generally referred to as a 'reverse loop controller'. It is
usually located under the benchwork near the 'isolated' section it
powers and requires no operator attention once installed. It's input
is your main DCC bus.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

New plan, similar. No double main. Haven’t decided on yard layout. need to see what fits when I start assembling.

maybe a bridge scene where the tracks come close to each other in the middle.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

A common novice planning mistake IMHO is to lay down a track design that "looks interesting, complex, or fills up the available space", then add the rest of the scenery, structures, etc wherever they will fit. Instead I recommend taking note of the way 1:1 railroads (and I) do planning. First they identify the location (in modelling terms, the terrain and era) and the purpose of the line (i.e. passenger service, goods transportation, classification /switching, major or multiple industries/commodities, interchange, equipment repair/servicing,,,) Next, they will decide what areas or regions they can efficiently service, and set those as the major way points. Third they might identify industries and/or people that need rail service at the way points and along the route. Then finally they decide what is the most cost effective way to connect and service those points that also allows for return traffic (modelling: point to point, turn around, continuous loop) based on the terrain (natural and man made obstacles) and use of available space. This will also need to take into account the type equipment that will run on the line. In our model world that sets parameters such as minimum radius of curves, length and location of passing sidings, elevation changes, types, locations and size of yards and/ or switching/storage sidings.
I develop the plan as a whole, not as cobbled together bits, pieces, and afterthoughts.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Played around a little today. Got it pretty close to drawing. I’m kind of glad I decided to recycle the KATO track from old layout. It lets me make a track plan, roughly, and see it in action before I lay down “permanent flex.” AND i can run trains. Lol


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> New plan, similar. No double main. Haven’t decided on yard layout. need to see what fits when I start assembling.
> 
> maybe a bridge scene where the tracks come close to each other in the middle.



nsmustang55ol;

Now you know where the term "dog bone" track plan came from. 😊

I strongly agree with scenicsRme's response above. There are two schools of thought on this issue though. If what you want to end up with is a geometric shaped track plan, on which trains can just run around and around, then this plan fits that bill. On the other hand, If you want a track plan that in some way looks, and operates, like a real railroad, then this isn't it.

As scenicsRme's response implies, the first consideration in track planning something with realistic operational possibilities is to sit back and think like a real world railroad company would. Why are we spending millions of dollars on this long, double-tracked bridge? Is it just so that we can "exercise" our locomotives by having them drag the same cars back & forth across our new expensive bridge? How do we make a profit by doing that?

A track plan based, at least a bit, on real world concerns about making that profit will have sidings built to serve industries. I most cases, industries that existed in some basic form, before the rails arrived, Having rail service made shipping the raw materials in, and/or products out, much more efficient.

As examples; farmers could transport their crops to the nearest village by horse & wagon, but with the railroad, they could ship to distant cities, and make more money.
Logging companies could move their timber by dragging it with oxen to the nearest river, but with a railroad, they could move more timber, directly from forest to distant sawmill, faster and more efficiently.

The profit-making potential is what caused real railroads to be built in the first place. When a particular railroad became unprofitable, due to competition, it was abandoned. To make our model railroads appear realistic, we need to show why the railroad exists. We will still want the option of continuous running, but if it is disguised by breaking up the obvious "Round & Round" pattern, it will look more like a real railroad, one that was built for a real world reason, to make money. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I like watching them go round and round. Mind you I have an 8 and 10 year old. the stub outs on bottom right will eventually lead to a yard/ reverse loop. this isn’t the definitive plan, just screwing around.

This is the add on that will eventually go on to give me a reverse loop and a yard where the kids cans build trains and send them off. We’ll be adding industries and sidings as we go along. Have an idea in my head. Not good at putting it on paper. The perspective is off.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

I too like being able to watch trains go round and round at times, I just don't like watching them repeat the same short predictable pattern over and over, the "here it comes again" train around the xmas tree syndrome. That is the beauty of a track plan designed for DCC, I can have more than 1 train traveling over alternative routes in the same layout. A train traveling at scale speed over the longest route of my mainline may not repeat for 1/2 hr or more and may disappear for a while while transversing one or both helixes and through the staging yard to "surprise" the observer by reappearing at an unexpected location.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> I too like being able to watch trains go round and round at times, I just don't like watching them repeat the same short predictable pattern over and over, the "here it comes again" train around the xmas tree syndrome. That is the beauty of a track plan designed for DCC, I can have more than 1 train traveling over alternative routes in the same layout. A train traveling at scale speed over the longest route of my mainline may not repeat for 1/2 hr or more and may disappear for a while while transversing one or both helixes and through the staging yard to "surprise" the observer by reappearing at an unexpected location.


Do you have your track plan? I’m curious.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

direct critique: Putting that double crossover at the back does not provide any advantage or need. Tracing your plan route the train gets "stuck" following the same pattern after the first circuit. I might place the double crossover on the double tracks crossing the front left triangle shaped benchwork.
I thought I posted my track plan earlier in this discussion? Yes I did, lower level and helixes post #37, upper level stripped to just the track post #40.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Here is upper level with scenery and structures included (pink are structures) drawn in xtrackcad:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> I like watching them go round and round. Mind you I have an 8 and 10 year old. the stub outs on bottom right will eventually lead to a yard/ reverse loop. this isn’t the definitive plan, just screwing around.
> 
> This is the add on that will eventually go on to give me a reverse loop and a yard where the kids cans build trains and send them off. We’ll be adding industries and sidings as we go along. Have an idea in my head. Not good at putting it on paper. The perspective is off.


OK. It's your railroad, so if you have what you enjoy, that's all that matters. Have Fun with it.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> Here is upper level with scenery and structures included (pink are structures) drawn in xtrackcad:
> View attachment 566674


Your right you did. I apologize.
Yes. I noticed that. I play around relocating it. Also came up with something like this. A double deck in left side to provide a longer main. Also where are you saying to relocate crossover?


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

ok, you changed the plan quite a bit so now, first the double track along the front I would not make slavishly parallel to the board edge, but what is now a straight make a flowing "S" curve from the bridge to around the turn. put the crossover into that section. Your previous versions of the yard inside the reverse loop was a far better use of that space. Siding inside the loop would be too short for use, and you don't want more than 1 train in the loop at a time. My printer is off line at the moment, I'll see if I can get it back up tomorrow then I can draw some alternate ideas rather than trying to describe them.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

That would be fanstastic!!!! I suck at this. Lol.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> ok, you changed the plan quite a bit so now, first the double track along the front I would not make slavishly parallel to the board edge, but what is now a straight make a flowing "S" curve from the bridge to around the turn. put the crossover into that section. Your previous versions of the yard inside the reverse loop was a far better use of that space. Siding inside the loop would be too short for use, and you don't want more than 1 train in the loop at a time. My printer is off line at the moment, I'll see if I can get it back up tomorrow then I can draw some alternate ideas rather than trying to describe them.


I made some copies of the bench work. I can scan and email if anyone feels like coming up with something? For fun


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> ok, you changed the plan quite a bit so now, first the double track along the front I would not make slavishly parallel to the board edge, but what is now a straight make a flowing "S" curve from the bridge to around the turn. put the crossover into that section. Your previous versions of the yard inside the reverse loop was a far better use of that space. Siding inside the loop would be too short for use, and you don't want more than 1 train in the loop at a time. My printer is off line at the moment, I'll see if I can get it back up tomorrow then I can draw some alternate ideas rather than trying to describe them.


The double crossover?


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Hmmm. Curvy like I like em


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

It's getting better. 

Magic


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> ok, you changed the plan quite a bit so now, first the double track along the front I would not make slavishly parallel to the board edge, but what is now a straight make a flowing "S" curve from the bridge to around the turn. put the crossover into that section. Your previous versions of the yard inside the reverse loop was a far better use of that space. Siding inside the loop would be too short for use, and you don't want more than 1 train in the loop at a time. My printer is off line at the moment, I'll see if I can get it back up tomorrow then I can draw some alternate ideas rather than trying to describe them.


Oh yea the yard in the reverse loop is still happening, I just don’t draw it sometimes becasue I’m not sure what I’m goin g to do just yet as far as a yard.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

If those grades are on a curve be sure you figure the effective grade or you may get an unpleasant surprise during your first operating run.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> If those grades are on a curve be sure you figure the effective grade or you may get an unpleasant surprise during your first operating run.


What that is?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

So, obviously, an incline creates "drag" as the locomotive pulls up hill. You also get some drag by going through a curve, even on a level grade. So when your train has to navigate a curve while also pulling up hill, the resulting drag is more than just the incline.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> So, obviously, an incline creates "drag" as the locomotive pulls up hill. You also get some drag by going through a curve, even on a level grade. So when your train has to navigate a curve while also pulling up hill, the resulting drag is more than just the incline.


Oic. So by the time it gets to the turn on upper level I plan on having it flat already. The ONLY bends on the incline will be slight. The drawing isn’t really to scale. It’s close but what I’m realizing is in real life there’s so much more room. What looks like a sharp curve or short spur on paper is way bigger on the table.
UPDATE: 

moved weights over to make room for extension.

played with the road bed a little bit. Making curves is fun with it. I may free hand a lot of it and use my giant compass to make sure I’m not going to sharp. I’ll have to shim the flex track up about poster board thickness to match the KATO turnout height. No problem, cheap enough. Enjoy!!!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The whole train will be on level track before the curve?


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Oic. I shall research.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Because your locomotive reaches level track before the curve doesn't mean the effective grade goes away if you still have rolling stock being pulled up the grade.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Magic said:


> It's getting better.
> 
> Magic


Is the double crossover is a good spot? Looking at it, it can create a couple reverse loops if it’s thrown.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> Because your locomotive reaches level track before the curve doesn't mean the effective grade goes away if you still have rolling stock being pulled up the grade.


yes I understand now. Is there somewhere I can research to adjust for this?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Effective Grade Calculator


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> Effective Grade Calculator


Thank you


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Here’s where I’m at now, yard design not definite. If anyone has suggestions for crossovers, single or double please please let me know. I added a single crossover middle left on bottom loop that’s going to go in and out of tunnel. I’ve traced route a lot and seem like a good spot. In my limited experience it seems to flow well with the over reverse loop.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

You have put a lot of thought into the shape of the table. I like it. It has personality.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> You have put a lot of thought into the shape of the table. I like it. It has personality.


Well thank you. Unfortunately I’m not going to make any track progress for a week and a half or so. Got stuck working OT at work for next 8 days. Oh well money to buy more stuf!!!

I also will be working on my backdrop, made a dumb mistake. I screwed the mdf directly to the back of bench work about every 10” or so. Well it’s gotten all wavy on me in a couple spots. Plan is while I still can, pull bench out from wall and strips a bunch of 1x2s out of some 1x4 I have and screw to bench work every foot or so then put counter sink screws in through front. Also need to install the curved corners and drywall compound the screw holes. THEN I’ll start laying track lol. What do y’all use for back drops screw covers? Drywall compound?


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

cut out my backdrop framing/bracing. Will start installing tomorrow. Any tips on bending mdf? For corners.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> cut out my backdrop framing/bracing. Will start installing tomorrow. Any tips on bending mdf? For corners.





nsmustang55ol said:


> cut out my backdrop framing/bracing. Will start installing tomorrow. Any tips on bending mdf? For corners.


MDF can be warped into a curve quite easily by soaking it in very hot water. You can use a hot tub, bath tub, or shower, to get the MDF sopping wet, & saturated with hot, hot, water. Then carefully and gradually, bend a little bit at a time until you have the whole piece the shape you want. Don't force it, or try to make a lot of curvature in a small spot. The longer its kept under water, and the hotter the water, the easier it will bend. I use bricks to hold the wood down in the bath tub, and change out the water when it cools. Sometimes, I've used rubber bungi cords to hold the wood in a curve. It actually works well if you end up with a little bit tighter a curve in the MDF than you will need. Its easier to let it unbend a little bit when you install it, than to try and bend it tighter.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

To cover joints and screw holes are you using drywall compound?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I would probably use paintable caulking


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Ok


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

RE: backdrop. PART 1 of 2. You can wet bend hardboard with water but it's extremely messy and you are still likely to end up with bumps and waves.
If you want to have a nice smooth bacground with curved corners for your layout I suggest going to Home depot and buy enough .090 x 4x 8 white FRP sheet (pebble tex on one side smooth on other) to rip into five 18" or 24" (or backdrop height, taller the better) x 8' strips. Also get four 1/8" x 8' J shaped white plastic edging molding strips (these are the key to the installation, make sure they fit panel thickness. Also get three 1x 4 x 8" pine boards and a caulking tube of the least expensive white acrylic caulk. We will make nearly invisible curved corners in the backdrop. Cut a 1/4" wide x 1/4" deep dado on the long corner of the pine wood. Cut the pieces to length and screw to back edge of platform (do not glue) so dado forms a 1/4" wide x 1/4" groove along edge. remove and trim existing hardboard backdrop to same height as new FRP backdrop strips. insert hardboard backdrop into groove, do not attach.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

ns mustang55ol you have a pm.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> ns mustang55ol you have a pm.


I emailed you


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

UPDATE: got the backdrop bracing on. Nice and solid now. I MIGHT run a 1x2 laying flat across tops of braces to make it perfectly straight but meh. I left myself enough room to do so. next us caulk and sand all the screw holes and joints as wel as the seams in the Foam. Also got my bus terminal strips in today. Will be working on that in preparation for track.
So my layout fits against the wall on all 3 sides. Should I attach it to the wall? it’s very sturdy as it is. Does not flex at all. If I pull on middle entire 11’ slides out. hold my 280lb a$$ up.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> UPDATE: got the backdrop bracing on. Nice and solid now. I MIGHT run a 1x2 laying flat across tops of braces to make it perfectly straight but meh. I left myself enough room to do so. next us caulk and sand all the screw holes and joints as wel as the seams in the Foam. Also got my bus terminal strips in today. Will be working on that in preparation for track.
> So my layout fits against the wall on all 3 sides. Should I attach it to the wall? it’s very sturdy as it is. Does not flex at all. If I pull on middle entire 11’ slides out. hold my 280lb a$$ up.



nsmustang55ol;

At some point, crawling on top of the table will no longer be a practical way of accessing the deep parts of your layout. When you have track, scenery, and structures, let alone details like autos & figures, in place, table crawling will be equivalent to an attack by Godzilla. If you're happy with your layout's stability, I would not bolt it to the wall. You're going to have to pull it out to clean track and retrieve errant trains ,as well as other maintenance. I suggest mounting it on casters to make it easier to pull out. To help maintain stability when its in its normal operating position, I suggest using casters equipped with toe-operated brakes on the front legs. Setting these brakes will keep it from rolling when you don't want it to. www.harborfreight.com is one source for such casters. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Good idea.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

UPDATE: added on the add on today. Tomorrow or next day. It will be decked and foamed. Sorry for the bad angle.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

UPDATE: Got the frame decked. Need to go get more glue for foam.
I want to leave the window mostly uncovered for air flow. How should I transition the backdrop to comedown lower? 
It’s going to be flat building back drop industrial kinda right there, should I just end it with a building?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

nsmustang55ol said:


> UPDATE: Got the frame decked. Need to go get more glue for foam.
> I want to leave the window mostly uncovered for air flow. How should I transition the backdrop to comedown lower?
> It’s going to be flat building back drop industrial kinda right there, should I just end it with a building?


How about a one story high, but wide warehouse? DPM (now part of Woodland scenics) makes a couple of kits "Goodnight Mattress Co.", and (something?) Transfer Warehouse. I used walls from these kits to make the long exterior walls of my model of Seattle Union Station, (see photo #1) and for a single story, but long, Railway Express Agency building that goes on the very front edge of the "Seattle" section of my layout. This one is open on the aisle side so the interior detail can be seen. No photo as it's still under construction. 

If your layout is set in the present day, a "green space", or park, might be between the industrial buildings. One large building can occupy a whole block, like my Sears Roebuck Mail order center in (photo #2) 
One odd suggestion would be to airbrush a basic sky image on window screen, so that the window can be part of the scenery, and still let air in.

Traction Fan 🙂


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