# New train suddenly making grinding sounds and not moving.



## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Have a new Lionel O Gauge train set: the Norfolk Southern. Train was running fine and then suddenly stopped and is making grinding noises. Does this if put in forward or reverse. Does not move.
Seems like the gears. Any advice on how to diagnose/correct?
I am working on figuring out how to take it apart.

Here is a link to the sound...






Thanks!


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Yes, absolutely the gears or maybe the motor.
Please, in the future, post your product number so we don't have to do extra work guessing to figure out what you have.
Based on the cab number I think this Norfolk Southern Tier 4 LionChief Set w/ Bluetooth
That is known to be an absolute crap tiny can motor drive set KNOWN to fail. EXAMPLES
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...l-bnsf-3782-et44c4-lion-chief-out-of-warranty 


https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/this-is-the-part-i-don-t-like-about-repairing-trains



I happen to have the Area 51 version of that same engine and treat it very lightly and do not pull extra cars knowing this flaw. In fact, I bought a Lionchief plus 2.0 ET44 to validate if those parts ever become listed at Lionel parts, you could do a frame and better motor truck swap and upgrade these absolute worst of the worst design Lionchief ET44 Lionel has ever made. Simply put, you bought one of the known bad designs.









The only thing you have going for you is half off parts sale today (this weekend) at Lionel. But then parts are not in stock so still kind of a not the best situation.





Lionel Train Replacement Parts, O Gauge Model Trains from Lionel Trains


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionelsupport.com
















68047331506-WHEEL POWERED TRUCK / ET441$24.00

6804733100DC MOTOR W/ GEAR / W/ BRACKET / ET446$18.00Currently out of Stock; expected delivery 09/30/2021

So yes, you might have a problem not easily solved at the moment lacking parts.

Again, you can shell swap the lion chief shells onto the MUCH better Lionchief Plus 2.0 Frame and motor trucks, but you also cannot currently just buy those parts either.








CSX LionChief Plus 2.0 ET44AC #3291


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionel.com





The only part Lionel sells for the better engine is the Lionchief plus 2.0 board.





Lionel Train Replacement Parts, O Gauge Model Trains from Lionel Trains


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionelsupport.com


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Here you go, a guide on gaining access to the 8, yes, 8 screws, 2 of them being trickier to get to.
You turn the trucks to maximum angles and you can get 6 of them, 4 around the front, and front 2 at the back, but then the last 2 you have to angle your #1 tip screwdriver to get to those.






























But again, the last 2 at the rear, you have to go at an angle between the pilot and the wheels as turning the truck will not gain you much better access.









But here is the comparison of a LC+ 2.0 trucks and motors VS the cheaper Lionchief ET44.








And the motor trucks are diecast Liondrive type on the plus (left) VS the Lionchief plastic truck on the right


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Again, at best, I would recommend buying 2 of the power truck assemblies (front and rear are same part) and that would cost you $24 (half off sale buying 2 trucks) +shipping+tax if you order today.





Lionel Train Replacement Parts, O Gauge Model Trains from Lionel Trains


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionelsupport.com












Lionel Trains 9th Annual Warehouse Sale | Lionel


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionel.com




*50% OFF Parts Sale: September 24th – 26th *: Lionel Customer Service is offering *50% off* parts orders during the weekend of Friday, September 24th, 2021 (12:01 a.m. ET) through Sunday, September 26th, 2021 (11:59 p.m ET). 
Just add the parts to your cart during this time period and it automagically deducts the discount.
That hopes that your motors are still good and they have metal gears unlikely to fail, but again, replacement motors are out of stock because people tend to burn them up probably pulling more cars or just flat out the motors are too small for the load and overheat and fail in short order.
At best you can fix it just by the trucks, at worst, it's dead and you are waiting on Lionel to get more.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Sorry about not including the model number! And thank you for the advice and information!

This train set, and another like it, were sent to me by Lionel to use in my classroom. I teach art and the room is really big: about 60x40 feet. I asked them if they could donate something and they did. I really appreciate that.

The train ran for about three days, on and off, during the school day, on the included small oval track. The fastest I ran it was in the short video to test it and send to Lionel as a thank you. The rest of the time I ran it on the slowest setting, with the train crawling slowly. I added no weight to the three cars. 

I am designing the layout to circumnavigate the room and have different levels. This engine would have probably made it four or five times around the room and died. I don't get it.

I am perplexed as to why not only donate, but even make, something that has such poor quality in its motor. I was hoping it was a fluke but the links above and your input shows otherwise, unfortunately. Would a restaurant donate spoiled food? Why donate a terribly inferior product: it's just going to make your company look bad!

The kids were all pretty interested in the train and the idea of the layout. Even had one of the rougher kids come over to the train and just watch it, saying that it was actually really cool. It really stinks that the train, even in its tiny track for now, will be missing on Monday. I don't want to tell them it broke, so I'll just put it away for now and focus on designing the layout.

Regardless, I have contacted Lionel and am awaiting their reply. I told them I would be glad to send these back and just get a refurbished steam locomotive that is robust. Or, if they have a stronger motor to retrofit. 
They have every right to tell me they're doing nothing more: these were free. I won't make a stink if they do. Heck, I at least got some track, a couple of controllers, and some rolling stock. But it would be a shame because its really a stain on their reputation. I had trains as a kid. At least one was Lionel. Just feels a bit sad to experience this.

I'll update when I found out more.

Here's the link to the video:






And again, THANK YOU!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

You could try for a Warranty repair.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Lionel contacted me and said they are replacing the locos. I just hope it with an improved motor!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's going to have the same motor. That's the cheap in-truck set motor, the design from K-Line, they don't have much useful life.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's going to have the same motor. That's the cheap in-truck set motor, the design from K-Line, they don't have much useful life.


Thanks.

Do you know if there's a way to replace that motor with a better one? And if there is, do you know what to get?


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

No, there is no magical better replacement motor for this specific engine.
This is limited by the design of the metal frame and the motor truck.

Sell the new engine when Lionel replaces it.
Buy a better Lionchief Plus 2.0 ET44 or a different engine with a better design.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Jetguy said:


> No, there is no magical better replacement motor for this specific engine.
> This is limited by the design of the metal frame and the motor truck.
> 
> Sell the new engine when Lionel replaces it.
> Buy a better Lionchief Plus 2.0 ET44 or a different engine with a better design.



Good idea.
Will do that!
Will use the money to buy a steam engine.

Thank you!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, those K-Line trucks were pretty crappy, and the plastic gears really don't inspire confidence either.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

His train doesn't use those sidewinder (motor parallel to the axle) trucks.









The Lionchief ET44 is one of these all new designs that Lionel made, different than anything before it.
They did a bunch of sets, example Area 51, Budwiser delivery, BNSF, GE tier4.
Point being, yes, they are vertical can motors, but they are the small motors, about the size you expect to see in a Trolley or other small motorized single unit.

















When they put them into a train, and then people buy add on cars- well then we find the true limits of that motor. Also, specifically this topic is the first truck gearing failure I have heard of in the design. Never took my personal Area 51 down to the truck and my plan was when the Lionchief plus ET44 came out, and the possibly if parts ever listed the different and much better LC+ 2.0 frame, then I could swap frame and liondrive trucks and motors and basically build a better Area51 frame to put the shell on.

Again, the fundamental problem with the Lionchief version is 3 related items:
#1 the frame because it limits what trucks you can use and also the motor size due to the position of motor vs the pivot point. The pivot point is NOT the motor like in many other vertical can motor truck designs. This means the motor swings in an arc and h frame has a cutout for that swing.









#2 The oddball never before truck has no alternative. This frame and that truck design are stuck together- a bad idea.
Again, below the motor pocket is behind the pivot point post.








#3 the truck, the frame the body shell width all limit to where you cannot put in a larger can motor.

Now conversely, they made a Lionchief Plus 2.0 version that uses the exact same ET44 shells. So yes, you can shell swap a LC ET44 body onto a LC+2.0 ET44 frame, but we cannot just buy those parts yet and buying a $400 LC+2.0 engine to put a LC shell on is kind of cost prohibitive.
Lionchief upper Area51 green
VS
Lionchief Plus 2.0 CSX









The Lionchief Plus uses Liondrive style Legacy sized motor, basically Legacy die cast trucks, and a completely different frame stamping. That said, again, I 100% validated, you can shell swap, it just makes zero sense $$$ wise. That may change at a later date if individual parts are offered and then bonus, once a year half off parts sale.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Jetguy said:


> View attachment 567520


Is that an N20 size motor?????? An N20 is 15 mm long and 10 mm wide flat side to flat side.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Wow!
Lots of info!!!
I’ll try to make some time at work and take off the shell to see what the inside looks like. Since they’re sending me a replacement and didn’t ask for the busted locomotive back, that will not be a worry regarding warranty. I will take pictures.

I’m wondering: is there an electric motor that can be installed even if the body won’t fit back on? If so, can just modify the body or make a whole new body robe a sort of fantasy locomotive.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am going to say there are better motors that will fit but the hard part is removing the gear from that motor and installing it on the new motor. A few of us have gone down that path, just not on this engine so I can’t tell you for sure what motor will work.

edit, Jet shows a newer engine with the better Mabuchi 385 motor. These are dirt cheap on eBay. So that motor will fit if you can swap,gears.

Pete


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Commander Zarkon said:


> Wow!
> Lots of info!!!
> I’ll try to make some time at work and take off the shell to see what the inside looks like. Since they’re sending me a replacement and didn’t ask for the busted locomotive back, that will not be a worry regarding warranty. I will take pictures.
> 
> I’m wondering: is there an electric motor that can be installed even if the body won’t fit back on? If so, can just modify the body or make a whole new body robe a sort of fantasy locomotive.


You will have to cut and enlarge the frame hole and this will limit the turn radius. Those holes right now go to the edge of the body. That's with the small motor literally bumping into them on turns. Bigger motor, you will then limit turning radius and derail.








You have to press off the worm gear, not destroy it, and press it onto a new motor.
You have to adapt the motor mounting plate and maintain the same gear mesh.
You have to find a motor that is the correct RPM per volt to have a usable speed range, and not draw too much current and then damage the Lionchief board.

And, unless you bought the replacement trucks at the parts half off parts sale that is over, now you are paying full price if those gears are stripped.

AT BEST, a Lionchief engine sells for between $125 to $175 from a set breakup typically if it is brand new.
Don't put $100 into an engine that because it's now abused and used isn't worth $90


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

I guess the best thing to do is what someone suggested: sell the sets and use the money to get a good steamer.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jetguy said:


> His train doesn't use those sidewinder (motor parallel to the axle) trucks.


I stand corrected. First time I ever saw these wimpy motors mounted like that in a Lionel product! Those are the same size motors that RMT used in the tiny BEEP locomotives, they're small and anemic! I hate to see Lionel cutting corners like that, I thought those motors were consigned to the dust bin of history when the K-Line designs finally disappeared from the lineup!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Best to avoid most first generation Lionchief. I know a few bigger diesels got this small motor, a single one at that plus the in truck motored RS3s and small steam engines like 0-8-0s. Later versions did get the larger motors.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't own any LC stuff, and I sold my one LC+ Camelback. I have a couple of the LC+ 2.0 0-6-0T locomotives, they also have a very small motor, but they're a very small locomotive. I'm generally not jumping on a lot of the Lionchief stuff, I still favor the Legacy and DCS full featured models.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Makes absolutely no sense for this to be the case. Why would anyone do something this idiotic? I don't get it. 
But regardless...
They are replacing my engines so I will see if they come with better motors. Can't imagine they would replace them with the same ones. In my email to Lionel I included links to discussions about these ridiculously wimpy and frail motors. 

This was the reply:

"Sorry to hear you have experienced an issue with the engine. I was under the impression these were tested/fixed. I spoke with CS Team and found some replacement engines I am sending you."

Hopefully this means they are aware of the issue and will correct it. Even if the engines are indeed upgraded though, if they are again diesels I will likely sell at least one of them to get a steamer. I have no interest in the diesel engines, though I guess its good to have at least one.

Looking forward to seeing what they send as replacements!

I'll see if I can dissassemble the loco sometime today and take pictures to be sure of the insides and the motors.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

For what it's worth, I think it's very cool that you are engaging the kids in your class this way. The world needs more teachers like you!


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Thank you!
I hope to turn the classroom into a unique place that inspires!


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

So I got some new engines. Are these worth keeping? Are they durable?
I have a small dilemma: these are O Gauge, but I really want to go with HO. I have considered just going with O, but that means half the area and less cool scale stuff. 
I could sell these and get one or two nice HO locomotives. 
What do you all think?

Here's what I have:

New Diesel identical to the last. I have to assume it has the same innards and will not be too durable.

TOY STORY Locomotive and tender.










LIONEL LINES locomotive and tender. Locomotive is pretty heavy.










POLAR EXPRESS locomotive and tender. This locomotive is heavier than the Lionel Lines one.


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