# Can Heat Damage Electronics?



## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I have not been able to find an answer to this. I have a shelf layout in the garage and this time of year temps hit over 90 degrees with humidity. I have been taking the locos and power pack in the house to be safe but is this necessary? I don't imagine warehouses and manufacturers have climate control.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

yes, it's probably the primary cause of electronic failure ... during operation. But not when unpowered.

electronic component, especially power components such as the MOSFETs that power the track, generate heat and dissipate heat by circulation with the surrounding air.

i recently read that a PowerCab should not exceed 3A, not because of electronic failure but because the plastic can melt.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

I think the ambient temps you're experiencing would not harm your devices, especially when they're not in use. 
When you are using them, just ensure that there's good ventilation around them...that is, not stuck down in some close-quarters hole or crammed into a tight space.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Gramps said:


> I have not been able to find an answer to this. ..l.


I didn't have any trouble finding lots of sites discussing this topic with a search "How heat affects electronics".

http://www.apiste-global.com/enc/technology_enc/detail/id=1262

Heat, vibration, and corrosive forces (acids, salts in solution) all contribute to the untimely deaths of electronics. As Grec says, it's not so much the heat just sitting there, but when you power them and they get overheated, you'd better hope there's a thermocouple in there designed to shut down the device before damage is done. Decoders are known to get overheated in tight spaces under shells, but only when producing maximum volumes over extended periods and the locomotive drive is getting lots of voltage to make it work hard.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Heat IS Electronics worst enemy, along with excess current, and wrong polarity.

Dan


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## Deane Johnson (Sep 19, 2016)

There's probably a wide range as to which electronics are most damaged by heat. Our automobiles today are loaded with electronics that take a tremendous heat load at times. Try parking a car in Arizona in the summertime. I would guess, however, that the electronic components used in autos are chosen to handle a significant heat load.

Components for electronics used in model train gear is probably much more middle-of-the road and more subject to heat failure. I wouldn't worry too much about 90 degrees, but that's an uneducated opinion. I would assume you're not running trains much when the temp is over 90 degrees, so you're not adding additional heat stress to the components with electrical current.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

While ambient heat may not
harm your locos and Controller when
not in use, you should
continue to take them into a controlled climate
after you shut down the layout.

Dust, moisture and other evils can cause
corrosion and damage to electrical
connections. Dirt and grit are not friendly
to gears.

Don


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

our small cell RF boards have an RF shield that doubles as a heat sink about 4x6 inches. I worked on code to shut the unit down when some temperature threshold was crossed.

i was told by the thermo guy that during normal operation you could fry an egg on it.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You might be better off leaving the stuff out in the garage, but in a sort of airtight locker. If they are inside and in an air-conditioned environment, then taking them out will cause condensation to form, may be more damaging than the actual heat. If possible it would be nice to store the engines and electronics in a locker that you can put some desiccant in. Humidity is not kind to things.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Thanks for the responses. It seems that it will be OK to leave them out. I will not likely run them when it's 90+ and because it's the garage, I always clean the tracks with alcohol soaked tissue before running.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Don't let it worry you. Think of all the hot, sun-baked, closed environments those items experienced as part of their supply chain: Production, transportation, warehousing, retail inventory. They get baked but good.

What feels hot to us is not hot for electronics. Temps need to be quite a bit above the boiling point before you would ever begin to worry, and that is why they have heat sinks and fans as needed.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Nikola said:


> Don't let it worry you. Think of all the hot, sun-baked, closed environments those items experienced as part of their supply chain: Production, transportation, warehousing, retail inventory. They get baked but good.
> 
> What feels hot to us is not hot for electronics. Temps need to be quite a bit above the boiling point before you would ever begin to worry, and that is why they have heat sinks and fans as needed.


For the static, unpowered state, this would be true.

But as others have commented, that's not what you need to worry about. It's the ability of the electronics to dissipate excess heat when operating, and that is partially a function of ambient temp. I wouldn't worry about leaving them in an uncooled garage, but I would be careful running them for long periods in that state.

What would concern me is plastics. They can start to degrade and deform in temps as low as 120 degrees.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Temperatures in the 90-100F range won't have a material effect on the longevity of electronic devices. Usually the heating effects that shorten the life is during operation where temperatures may be considerably higher.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Heat is the number one enemy of electronics.

Just ask the Missile Maintenance Team that fried the can (G&C section) of a Minuteman II ICBM when they forgot to hook up the liquid coolant lines after a can/BT swap and the missile computer was started with no cooling.

I was there to troubleshoot the problem when I found what I described above.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Anything that's liquid cooled obviously really needs it! That's quite different than what we're talking about. A lot of the avionics I designed also needed liquid cooling and/or forced air cooling, but it was power hungry stuff in a very tight space. I'm sure the missile has even more stringent space considerations!


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

MichaelE said:


> Heat is the number one enemy of electronics.
> 
> Just ask the Missile Maintenance Team that fried the can (G&C section) of a Minuteman II ICBM when they forgot to hook up the liquid coolant lines after a can/BT swap and the missile computer was started with no cooling.
> 
> I was there to troubleshoot the problem when I found what I described above.


Thanks for the response but the only rockets I fire are into my shorts.:laugh::laugh:


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## porkchopper (Jun 13, 2018)

On the deck of the USS Eisenhower, in the Persian Gulf, we had temps of ~140f in the cockpits of our aircraft. We'd wrap the canopies in reflective mylar and get the temps down to the chilly 120f range. Everything worked as expected. Granted, this is "mil-spec" hardware but, anyone familiar with the concept of lowest-bidder knows this means very little. Here in Florida, my unconnected garage gets well over 100f and I've never hesitated to store electronics in it. YMMV but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

porkchopper said:


> ...Granted, this is "mil-spec" hardware but, anyone familiar with the concept of lowest-bidder knows this means very little..


If the hardware was built to specifications, and rigorously tested to make sure it met those specifications, then the bid price of the article is irrelevant.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

porkchopper said:


> YMMV but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


YMMV?


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## porkchopper (Jun 13, 2018)

*YMMV*

_Your mileage may vary_


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## porkchopper (Jun 13, 2018)

highvoltage said:


> If the hardware was built to specifications, and rigorously tested to make sure it met those specifications, then the bid price of the article is irrelevant.


Not sure what your point is but if I'm following you, the two wildcards are "if" and "specifications". In government contracting, those two words do not have concrete definitions (I'm a government contractor providing products and services to the DoD, DoE, and DHS.)


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

I was just cranky after a long day. At first your comment came across as someone who spent their entire career using mil-spec hardware, but had never designed or built any. But your post says otherwise.

I also designed and built electronics for a variety of three-letter agencies. While the concept of lowest bidder can lead to less than desirable results, it doesn't mean it always does.

Anyway, enjoy the forum.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The avionics equipment we built passed a 168 hour burn in at 85C before it shipped. Needless to say, some of it got a lot hotter inside, so storage was never a factor. For stuff that is outside the pressured cabin, it has to withstand extremes of heat and cold. You can be parked on the tarmac in the Persian Gulf or flying over Greenland at 45,000 feet, so heat and cold are a fact of life.

Even car electronics has to withstand pretty wide temperature swings, 140F in a car cab is not unusual in some areas. If you're in Phoenix, it hits 120F + at times, and it's a lot hotter in the car parked in the sun!


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

A little circulating air will go a long way to keeping electronics working. But bringing an engine from an air conditioned environment into hot damp weather is bound to generate condensation and that can't be good for the moving parts.


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## ReverseEMF (Jun 21, 2017)

Different components have different Maximum Temperature specifications. And, the same type of component can have different ratings [e.g. _Commercial_, _Industrial_, _Military_, even _Automotive_] and each has a different allowable temperature range. Most can handle 90°F just fine -- BUT, if that component is dissipating power, then it will, likely, be running at a higher temperature than the ambient temperature. AND, as the ambient temperature goes up, so does that higher temperature -- in other words, a transistor that runs at 100°F when the ambient temp is 75°, will run hotter at, say, 85°.

Then, there's Mean Time Before Failure [MTBF]. This _statistical_ lifespan prediction can be compromised by running the part at higher temps. In other words, running electronic components hotter can shorten their lifespan.

Most components have available, a datasheet, that usually contains this information. What I often do, to find a component datasheet, is go to a site like Mouser, or Digikey and search on the component part number. Both these sites almost always have a link to a datasheet.

If a component is running too hot, then there are measures that can be applied to keep them running cooler:

Add a Heatsink.
Mount a fan on it.
Use a heatsink AND a fan.
Water cool it.
Use a Peltier device to cool it.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Sodium chromate worked for us. As long as you weren't exposed to it directly.


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## ReverseEMF (Jun 21, 2017)

I reread your question and realized, there are other considerations besides electronics. I'm not as qualified to speak about them, but consider things like the effect of heat on plastics, lubrication, and other materials that might be within model train components.

And, to reiterate, unpowered is different than powered. When powered, a locomotive will generate it's own heat, and that compounds the problem. Unpowered, 90° is probably not a concern. Powered, I can't say for sure. Perhaps, some sort of remote temperature sensor [bluetooth, Wifi, ???] installed within the locomotive housing, so the temps, in there, can be monitored/logged?


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

ReverseEMF said:


> I reread your question and realized, there are other considerations besides electronics. I'm not as qualified to speak about them, but consider things like the effect of heat on plastics, lubrication, and other materials that might be within model train components.
> 
> And, to reiterate, unpowered is different than powered. When powered, a locomotive will generate it's own heat, and that compounds the problem. Unpowered, 90° is probably not a concern. Powered, I can't say for sure. Perhaps, some sort of remote temperature sensor [bluetooth, Wifi, ???] installed within the locomotive housing, so the temps, in there, can be monitored/logged?


I have thought about the other considerations and because it's also so uncomfortable out there I have pretty shut down running the layout until after Labor Day.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A good rule of thumb is if you can stand the heat at the layout, the trains will almost surely be fine.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If your not going to run for awhile, then I would bring the high valued equipment in.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> If your not going to run for awhile, then I would bring the high valued equipment in.


Deleted, posted twice.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> If your not going to run for awhile, then I would bring the high valued equipment in.


I already did that, thanks.


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