# The New Lionel Catalog



## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

There is a dealer here in my local area that usually sells the next Lionel catalog on Ebay before Lionel's Go Live date. I have been to his store many times. I am not rushing down there today to get the next catalog by any means...I can wait until the Go Live date. However, here are a few photos he posted...

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## Guest (Jul 6, 2019)

Thanks Ken for the photos. In years past, I would have been excited about every new Lionel catalog. Now, the excitement is gone for reasons we are all keenly aware of.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I never thought I'd say this but I have no interest in Lionel anymore.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2019)

Thanks for posting Ken. I will be interested to see the new catalog but I'm also preparing myself for disappointment. From the samples you posted it looks like it may be time for Lionel to start including a Loan Application in their catalogs.

Emile


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

When I got into this hobby lo these many years ago (year and a half, give or take ), I would have been over the moon about this leak. Frisco and Mopac are my faves. However, Lionel is strictly look-but-don't-touch for me. I've already been burned too many times. Shame.:thumbsdown: hwell:


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

There’s already a thread on the newest Big Boys but that ran its course before the catalog came out in hard copy. The thing that struck me was that for a reduced feature model the price looks to be north of $2K, meaning it will probably retail for around $1,850-$1,900 (just my guess). This is more or less what I expected, I suspect Lionel will have no trouble selling a good number of them and to the extent they include VL controls and other components they have a track record of fairly reliable/predictable operation.

But I’m not interested even though (1) the V for Victory chalked on lettering is reproduced, (2) there are 3 speakers and (3) there’s a greyhound version, which will no doubt get the historical truth squad out in force. Someone else must be able to produce the V lettering as a decal.

The eBay listing has quite a few other pages showing several EM1 versions and there’s a report over on the other forum of a line of single truck passenger camp cars being issued, including one in Daylight livery. What a camp car is I dunno - and I can’t say I’m gasping to find out!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)




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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Nothing I see there excites me. My JLC Big boy works perfectly. Not going to take a chance. 

Interesting they are doing the DM&IR EM-1. My Legacy EM-1 looks good but has never been quite right - bobbles and stalls. Been back twice for repair. They say nothing is wrong with it. No joy. If that is the way it is supposed to run, well . . . 

Hope they get it right this time.


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## Ted W (Jan 15, 2017)

So what’s a new to the hobby guy supposed to do if he wants one of these dang things?(BBoy) Seems to me the only option is to roll the dice. Three turns around the stump and spit at the moon...


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Will be checking it out to see if there is anything SP&S, NP, or GN.

Bill


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

When is the go live date?


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

I heard July 22 - a Monday it is, and a day I'll have something interesting to read at my lunch break.

I have to admit I am hoping for a Lionel PRR M1a...but, I still have to get my Legacy PRR K4 fixed...waiting on Lionel service to open back up just to get an RA to send it back.

I am becoming weary of QC challenges with Lionel, and I think I may have mentioned on another thread that I wrote a letter to Howard Hitchcock earlier this year detailing my experiences with recent purchases. Suffice it to say, I am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“I wrote a letter to Howard Hitchcock earlier this year”

Did you get a response?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

No M1a, some GN and NP. I think all the scale steam has been pictured on eBay.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

The only thing I am still looking to see from Lionel at this point is the completion of the Freedom Train. I've lost track of the exact timing of things... but I recall asking Lionel at York about 3 shows ago. And at that time, I was told they do have plans to complete the train, but not within the next few catalogs. Considering I took that to imply 2 years or so... it's possible we might see some of the add-on Freedom Train cars in 2020. But it could be the following year too. Who knows? 

I'm not THAT big a fan of Lionel passenger cars these day, but I would at least like to complete the Freedom Train I started a couple of years ago by adding a trailing observation car, lounge car, and a couple of showcase cars. That's enough for me to call it a train and be happy. I just hope Lionel has the A-team working on those cars whenever they make them, because the last 2 rounds of experience with Lionel's passenger cars in 2018 has kept me from purchasing ANY other passenger cars from Lionel until I see them first. 

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

No Freedom Train. NS OCS, Alaska, and UP cars plus a couple NYC ESE cars and individual assorted Vista Domes.
The UP Kenefick Business car will only be available with the Bush 4 car funeral train with a 4141 SD70ACe. I was afraid they might do that. I am not going to buy the whole train for that one car.
As a consolation they are doing the Lone Star Business car in an add on set. Same car, different name.

Pete


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

TheBigCrabCake said:


> Thanks for posting Ken. I will be interested to see the new catalog but I'm also preparing myself for disappointment. From the samples you posted it looks like it may be time for Lionel to start including a Loan Application in their catalogs.
> 
> Emile


How about a 3-year lease with 30,000 scale miles


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2019)

Millstonemike said:


> How about a 3-year lease with 30,000 scale miles


That's funny! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'll bet Lionel has already discussed the possibility.

Emile


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> The only thing I am still looking to see from Lionel at this point is the completion of the Freedom Train. I've lost track of the exact timing of things... but I recall asking Lionel at York about 3 shows ago. And at that time, I was told they do have plans to complete the train, but not within the next few catalogs. Considering I took that to imply 2 years or so... it's possible we might see some of the add-on Freedom Train cars in 2020. But it could be the following year too. Who knows?
> 
> I'm not THAT big a fan of Lionel passenger cars these day, but I would at least like to complete the Freedom Train I started a couple of years ago by adding a trailing observation car, lounge car, and a couple of showcase cars. That's enough for me to call it a train and be happy. I just hope Lionel has the A-team working on those cars whenever they make them, because the last 2 rounds of experience with Lionel's passenger cars in 2018 has kept me from purchasing ANY other passenger cars from Lionel until I see them first.
> 
> David



I hear you about the Freedom Train. After being assured by Ryan Kunkle that Lionel would be producing the entire train there have been no further items for a couple years now. The showcase cars, the flatcars w/their loads and the obs car require new tooling. Some months back, I managed to purchase the 2 K-Line showcase cars and the obs car for $90 each. Now glad I did. Since Pete mentioned there are no Freedom Train items in the 2019 Vol 2 catalog, that means the earliest would be a 2020 catalog with actual delivery being another 1-2 years beyond that.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Norton said:


> The UP Kenefick Business car will only be available with the Bush 4 car funeral train with a 4141 SD70ACe. I was afraid they might do that. I am not going to buy the whole train for that one car.
> 
> As a consolation they are doing the Lone Star Business car in an add on set. Same car, different name.
> 
> Pete


I haven't seen the hard copy catalog yet but these cars are something of interest. I don't think Lionel has produced any business cars although there are K-Line versions still available. However all the ones I have seen are semi-scale and the UP versions I'd want are near impossible to find. So Lionel's found a niche in the market but I wonder what interiors these cars will have? 

P.S. As far as I can see no full descriptions/catalog pages of the UP add-on cars have been posted anywhere but there's an odd discrepancy in pricing shown below. Two single dome cars have a MSRP of $329 and two 2-car add-on sets have a MSRP of $359; what gives? 

P.P.S. I got an answer to my question on dome car pricing: the single cars have a WiFi camera in the dome.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Norton said:


> The UP Kenefick Business car will only be available with the Bush 4 car funeral train with a 4141 SD70ACe. I was afraid they might do that. I am not going to buy the whole train for that one car.
> As a consolation they are doing the Lone Star Business car in an add on set. Same car, different name.
> 
> Pete


Bummer! How much is the set (MSRP) until the 'street prices' are released on the 22nd?

Curious, what's the Big Boy MSRP? 

I saw the UP Challenger/Excursion expansion packs. 

I'll enjoy looking through the catalog when available. I hope others find stuff they want and enjoy.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

As I read the admittedly indistinct images posted so far, the Big Boy MSRP is $2,199, which is top dollar for a model that has only limited special features. 

P.S. From the below (posted on the other place), it looks like the Bush funeral train is a comparative snip  at $1,199 (with some change in the StationSounds diner sound set that does not fully appear in the copy):


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> Bummer! How much is the set (MSRP) until the 'street prices' are released on the 22nd?
> 
> Curious, what's the Big Boy MSRP?
> 
> ...


The set is MAPed as 10%. Though some dealers may find a way around that. Good news is the add on cars are not MAPed and typically sell at a substantial discount. I may just buy two Lone Star set sets and reletter one.
Had they included the 2066 power car in the set I may have sprung for a set and sold off the engine.

Pete


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> As I read the admittedly indistinct images posted so far, the Big Boy MSRP is $2,199, which is top dollar for a model that has only limited special features.




I don't own a Vision Line Big Boy, but the difference I read from this version is there will be no Blow Down Smoke, No Driver Lights, and of course the tender being different. The VL Big Boy had MSRP of $2699. It makes me wonder if they are using older tooling and different tooling from their previous Legacy and Vision Line runs of the Big Boy or if they are not adding those features to the existing tooling they used for VL Big Boy. I guess we will find out in a few weeks when Lionel officially unveils the catalog. 

I have not see any photos of NS OCS yet. It was disappointing that Lionel screwed up the color of NS theater car. I am glad I did not preorder that car! I assume they will use that exact same color again on their NS OCS train. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

kstrains said:


> I don't own a Vision Line Big Boy, but the difference I read from this version is there will be no Blow Down Smoke, No Driver Lights, and of course the tender being different. The VL Big Boy had MSRP of $2699. It makes me wonder if they are using older tooling and different tooling from their previous Legacy and Vision Line runs of the Big Boy or if they are not adding those features to the existing tooling they used for VL Big Boy. I guess we will find out in a few weeks when Lionel officially unveils the catalog.


Thank you for posting the first catalog images; only a few more have appeared since.

I can't imagine that Lionel is using different tooling for the loco than they did for the VL Big Boy; they already had tooling for the tender. I expected a dumbed down version of the VL but at just $500 less this issue strikes me as overpriced. 

I also thought that they could do something with the crew talk and they have as each version will have number-specific announcements. I think that will appeal to most buyers who are not sticklers for prototypical accuracy.

Having "invested" in a VL version I am not in the market for this latest issue but having seen what it is intended to be I am sure Lionel will sell a respectable number. Frankly I'd hate to see any unforgivable QC issues such as engine ID faults but they have time to prevent this happening.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2019)

Their line of plastic 21" passenger cars can be gold plated and I would not touch them again. Burned once was enough for me.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I can understand most having no interest in Lionel's 21" cars. They are a far cry from Lionel's 18" metal streamliners which were among the best of their time, despite being generic.
Their appeal to me at this time is they are pretty accurate models on the cars they represent, at least the ones made for Union Pacific.
Too bad GGD didn't do these as I would expect theirs to be just as accurate and using better construction but they haven't yet and I doubt they will jump in at this point. The market must be pretty well saturated.
Since the debacle of the 2017-2018 cars, the latest cars I have received do have zero defects though and even my early cars have only the stuck on bodies, once removed can be fixed easily. No other paint flaws or other defects.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> I can understand most having no interest in Lionel's 21" cars. They are a far cry from Lionel's 18" metal streamliners which were among the best of their time, despite being generic.
> ....


Pete, my disdain for new Lionel passenger cars goes well beyond just their 21-inchers. I sent all 8 of my Reading & Northern 18" heavyweights back to Charlie Ro back in January this year -- that was the same batch that included the Polar Express cars, where folks were complaining about paint marks, poor trucks, and wheel journals popping off. Left unsupervised, Lionel's Chinese factories are producing substandard junk at every turn. And I'm tired of it. Now in all fairness to Lionel, they claim that they have fixed these problems for the heavyweights offered in the 2019 Volume 1 catalog, of which there are many. But I didn't pre-order ANY of them. So we shall see what actually gets delivered. 

For some reason, Lionel insists on using mint-green window tint on their heavyweights, and that's reportedly not gonna change in 2019. While that's OK on occasion, I much prefer the warm amber glow for my standard passenger car lighting. So I've pretty much parted company with Lionel in terms of passenger cars these days. As I said, when they do offer more Freedom Train cars, I'll spring for a few just to "complete" the train -- especially an observation car and a couple of showcase cars. Aside from this, MTH has now become my go-to passenger car supplier. GGD is top-notch, but I can no longer justify the cost vs. the enjoyment factor. That's where MTH really shines: they seem to provide the best bang for my dollar right now.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm with you Dave, while GGD has a super product, I usually buy my MTH 18" cars used for $25-45 a car, that's prices I can live with. Lionel street price is up to around $100 nowadays, that's pretty rich. I can upgrade the lighting to LED in the MTH Premier cars very easily, and add passengers while I'm in there.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lionel's 18"ers in this catalog list for 200 bucks a piece. Even street price won't cut that in half.
I remember when Lionel offered a set of Santa Fe heavyweights, maybe ten years ago. Barry's trains was blowing out 7 car sets with the SS diner for 350 bucks all with figures at York. In this catalog those same cars list for $1530 with no figures!!!
MTH 18"ers are by far the best bang for the buck and now even better detailed.

Pete


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2019)

Pete, sooner or later, the market will react to this.

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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

The Excursion cars are tempting but then I'm reminded of the mess that arrived last time. Dealing with that is something I don't need to repeat, so I'll watch from the side this time. A few years from now I'll be able to buy on secondary market for much less if I want a set. 

I must add, the Challenger cars delivered earlier this year were fantastic, at least the set I photographed for a friend.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Last week I received my MTH Rocky Mountaineer four car set from PATRICKS TRAINS. They are great looking cars with passengers in them. MTH gets super high marks on what they are pushing out. Getting the colors right along with marketing new road names. I will most certainly be looking at their catalogs in the future for more great ideas in growing my railroads.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The only issue I have had with my Excursion cars is with the double sided tape being applied too low. That was corrected with the Challenger cars. Couplers and trucks were fine. 
Not trying to sing their praises. Still have a hard time with their shortcuts like doors including baggage car doors being cast in place and scotch tape holding down wires.
One place where the new cars shine is with the sounds. Its quite a show with Power car growl and SS Diner with its constant track squeal and rail clicks. All as loud an the engine prime mover.

Pete


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

Fabforrest said:


> “I wrote a letter to Howard Hitchcock earlier this year”
> 
> Did you get a response?


It took a while, but yes, he did write back. He said he passed on my letter to production team.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2019)

*"Last week I received my MTH Rocky Mountaineer four car set from PATRICKS TRAINS. They are great looking cars with passengers in them. MTH gets super high marks on what they are pushing out. Getting the colors right along with marketing new road names. I will most certainly be looking at their catalogs in the future for more great ideas in growing my railroads."*

Laz, I think a lot of us have re-directed our thinking because of what you have said.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

I saw photos on OGR, I like the Blue Goose Santa Fe Northern. I’m not a fan of the fantasy schemes but this was definitely took the cake. I saw 3751, I’m on the fence about buying a new one or looking around for a TMCC version or Legacy from a few years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm solidly MTH, and I hope Lionel is reading this. The last catalog's - I ordered from both, because of Road Names and features offered. 

I just got my outer track electrified, and both Lionel and MTH seem to running well on Fastrack. Lionel's detail and sounds are as nice as MTH. For what I use. But - Lionel needs to clearly differentiate and quit messing around with levels of detail and features. 

MTHs prices are not as high as Lionel, over all. and clearly differentiating between Rail King, Rail King Scale and Premier allows me to make purchasing decisions to meet my budget. 

Lionel almost always places new road names/eras under Legacy features and prices. I run conventional and I want Legacy details but not features. If they would settle down and stop messing with "lionchief" and such and just call it one name and stick to it, then I could decide whether to buy. It MUST BE $100 or less than a Legacy Diesel or I would likely pass. 

Lionel Legacy Diesels are running $650 to $700 and they will raise prices annually. Give me a Legacy level of detail and conventional or sub Legacy features for $499 retail and I will be a buyer for whatever Road Names appeal to me, once a year. 

Right now I am spending on both manufacturers, from catalogs at a 5% of annual income clip, and simply can not afford that any more. I have to make difficult choices going forward. I'm sure some of you are in the same boat. Along with secondary market stuff I am spending close to 10% annually. 

I am now only looking for gee whiz stuff from the catalogs, and then from there I have to decide what is a priority. I am somewhat between those new to the hobby and those with established hobby stock. I catch myself many times now on ebay wanting to buy an item, then going to the basement and seeing I already have it. 

So I am getting to that saturation point. Lionel needs to focus on details, quality and delivery. MTH is consistent and way ahead at this point.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

I'll see what's in the catalog and decide then. I have had good luck with Lionel. My experience with the Polar Express cars were less than stellar though but all were handled by my LHS. I have a couple of big engines on pre-order from Volume 1 so after hearing about the new catalog, nothing is jumping out in the big dollar department.

I 100% agree with everyone about MTH's passenger cars. They seem to be fairly bullet proof. I am looking to lower cost cars from MTH when it comes to passenger cars. The only downside is when you want a sound diner car.

Personally I wish Lionel would do less and concentrate on getting it right than volume. I won't pretend folks haven't been as lucky as I have been with Lionel products. It's obvious from postings on the forums they need to take a serious look at some of their suppliers. There must be a couple of good ones because the Niagaras were pretty successful. I can only hope the new Js and the Polar Bi-Polar (TriPolars) are made in the same factory.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2019)

*"Personally I wish Lionel would do less and concentrate on getting it right than volume."*

My thoughts exactly. Until there is a new track record of delivering bullet proof merchandise, less is more.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

laz57 said:


> Last week I received my MTH Rocky Mountaineer four car set from PATRICKS TRAINS. They are great looking cars with passengers in them. MTH gets super high marks on what they are pushing out. Getting the colors right along with marketing new road names. I will most certainly be looking at their catalogs in the future for more great ideas in growing my railroads.


I just got some more MTH Great Northern cars from Patricks Trains, too. 

I think MTH has upped the number of something on the passengers. Lately, the just seem, more numerous and "happier" (I know that seems silly, maybe more colorful or more visible is the real thing. I really like these new cars.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

My MTH Milwaukee Road passenger cars are well made. My next passenger car purchase will be MTH. I don't pay attention to Lionel these days, but if I come across something I like and the price is good I'll buy it.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> I just got some more MTH Great Northern cars from Patricks Trains, too.
> 
> I think MTH has upped the number of something on the passengers. Lately, the just seem, more numerous and "happier" (I know that seems silly, maybe more colorful or more visible is the real thing. I really like these new cars.


I had noticed the same thing too with the passengers. I think you are on to something with the different colors of clothing. I noticed cell phones in the vista dome cars?


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## LionelFan (Jun 6, 2019)

I have been enjoying this thread.

I stopped buying Lionel about 20-years ago, just after Lionel moved production to China I think. Back then I received the Lionel catalogs each year provided by Charles Roe, but those stopped coming when I stopped buying Lionel equipment. 

So I have not seen any new catalogs from Lionel for almost 20-years.

Reading this thread I learned how out of touch I am with Lionel! I'm stuck in 1999.

Amazing the changes in the last 20-years.

Added: Lionel still makes Polar Express stuff? I run a Polar Express engine, and have the set still unwrapped in the box along with the extra cars. I never ran any of the cars. I found the catalogs on-line. I'm going to check them out.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2019)

Lionel Fan, the Polar Express line is very popular and Lionel still presents PE equipment in their catalogs. Since it has been a long time since you have followed catalogs, you may not be aware that they also have produced a line of scale PE equipment. Here are a couple of photos of the PE scale engines.

View attachment 501936


View attachment 501938


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## sg3 (Dec 19, 2015)

I fell in love with the two pages of Alaska Railroad offerings. It would take me a life time to save up to get the stuff😢


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## sg3 (Dec 19, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> laz57 said:
> 
> 
> > Last week I received my MTH Rocky Mountaineer four car set from PATRICKS TRAINS. They are great looking cars with passengers in them. MTH gets super high marks on what they are pushing out. Getting the colors right along with marketing new road names. I will most certainly be looking at their catalogs in the future for more great ideas
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2019)

LionelFan said:


> Lionel still makes Polar Express stuff? I run a Polar Express engine, and have the set still unwrapped in the box along with the extra cars. I never ran any of the cars. I found the catalogs on-line. I'm going to check them out.


LionelFan,
You may be interested to see this vidoe of the Scale PE in action.






Emile


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## sg3 (Dec 19, 2015)

@Bigcrabcake
When are you going to post vol 6 and 7 of your Epic Christmas Village displays on youtube?


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2019)

Thanks for posting the video, Emile. It really highlights both the 1225 and passenger cars. Gets our member caught up to date quickly as to what has been going on witch the Poplar Express.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I have to give Kudos to Lionel for bringing back the B&A 4-6-6T Tank engine. Yes we all complain about the price but it's the nature of the beast these days. The Legacy features will make this a sweet little engine. Now if they will only do passenger cars for it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I like the tank engines, but I already have a Reading and CNJ, so adding another one isn't in the cards. If they had done a Reading one with Legacy, I may have considered it.

However, there is one I'm going to take a shot at, for $250, I'm curious if it'll really be as neat as it sounds!

The PRR LC+ 2.0 Docksider.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

GARY,
I am with you on Lionel bringing back the tank engines. I have two of the Kline in Reading and a weathered NYC and they run good. But over a 1000 bucks for one? No thank you.

JOHN,
Yes that little engine looks good but I’ll have to see if there is any big improvements before I get one.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

superwarp1 said:


> I have to give Kudos to Lionel for bringing back the B&A 4-6-6T Tank engine. Yes we all complain about the price but it's the nature of the beast these days. The Legacy features will make this a sweet little engine. Now if they will only do passenger cars for it.


I have 2 of these engines from K Line. Yes great engines I agree. But how anyone can justify the doubling of cost on these from Lionel is beyond my comprehension If Lionel had an outlay on crafting new molds for this engine, there might be some reasoning to the increase, even with Legacy added. But there isn't. They are using K Line mold. 
What I'm seeing is Lionel making a quick buck to counter so many of its production failures. If the market is favorable to these and accepts price increases every catalog, sooner or later, Lionel will price themselves out of the market except for those that have money to burn.
In fact, I bought my 2 at a ridiculous 229.00 each, brand new. They still run like a watch.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I like the tank engines, but I already have a Reading and CNJ, so adding another one isn't in the cards. If they had done a Reading one with Legacy, I may have considered it.
> 
> However, there is one I'm going to take a shot at, for $250, I'm curious if it'll really be as neat as it sounds!
> 
> The PRR LC+ 2.0 Docksider.


I'm in for the BEDT #15 docksider for sure. The addition of LC+ 2.0 will hopefully make these some amazing little engines. I love the conventional and Lionchief ones I already have. I've run and fired the real BEDT #15 many times over the past five years in its current configuration as the Strasburg Railroad's "Thomas the Tank Engine" when it comes to town every year, so I figure I should at least have a representation of it in my collection.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, with TMCC & BT, cruise control, fan driven smoke, 4-chuffs, electrocouplers, and better sounds, it'll be a pretty nice switch engine if it's as described. I'm presuming they're now using the better sound board, which will really make for better sounds.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, Pat's trains has them for under a grand. I'm sure others will be in the same ballpark. What about the Big Boy and the EM-1 prices? Are those out of whack also? What would be a fare price for a tank engine with legacy and whistle steam?


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

laz57 said:


> GARY,
> I am with you on Lionel bringing back the tank engines. I have two of the Kline in Reading and a weathered NYC and they run good. But over a 1000 bucks for one? No thank you.
> 
> JOHN,
> Yes that little engine looks good but I’ll have to see if there is any big improvements before I get one.


Yep, the listed price qualifies for sticker shock.

Bill


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Today I read through the catalog for the first time. IMO, this is one of the better catalogs.

Lots of nice stuff, but my concern over QC issues of past are still looming. Currently VL Challengers are on hold for an undisclosed reason...

Wish Lionel success, I don’t need another $2,000 Big Boy or a fantasy EM-1.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> Well, Pat's trains has them for under a grand. I'm sure others will be in the same ballpark. What about the Big Boy and the EM-1 prices? Are those out of whack also? What would be a fare price for a tank engine with legacy and whistle steam?


Well, they'd have to be WAY under a grand to make a difference!If the street price were in the same range as the recent H10 with all those features, then I'd be interested. For $600 out of pocket, I'd bite. For close to $1,000 out of pocket, too rich for my blood!

You're not seriously comparing an EM-1 with the tank engine, are you?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> .... What about the Big Boy and the EM-1 prices? Are those out of whack also?...


The 2014 VL BB “street price” was $1985, granted it was 5 years ago, so adjusted for inflation, I guess it’s what the consumer feels comfortable paying. The 2019 BB “street price” is $1980 without a few of the features (some may prefer or not). 

Surprises me there’s still a market for $2,000 Big Boys but what do I know? Guess that’s why Lionel & MTH sell trains and I fly airplanes for a living.


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## JoeSaggese (Aug 17, 2018)

I just looked at the catalog and I would like the PRR tank engine. I dont want to pre order tho.....


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> I have to give Kudos to Lionel for bringing back the B&A 4-6-6T Tank engine. Yes we all complain about the price but it's the nature of the beast these days. ....


Gary, I guess I'm in a different place these days. I've lost interest in "funding" Lionel's overhead. And the latest Challenger hiccup -- whatever the details may be that's got its delivery "on hold" -- is just another example of a QC blunder that should not be happening on what is essentially a product re-issue.

If Lionel is telling us they can't make quality trains at a less-than-ridiculous price point, then I really don't care if they survive or not. I -- and I suspect many other people can say this as well -- have more than enough trains to enjoy the hobby. New trains at this point are a superfluous luxury for me, as there are LOTS of ways to enjoy this hobby without chasing the latest new Lionel product offering(s) that are priced into the stratosphere. Enjoying the many trains on my roster, tacking some minor (and major) layout enhancements, and attending toy train (and real train) events are just a few examples.

Nice stuff in the catalogs? Yes. Trouble-free and practically priced? No and no.

David

P.S. By the way... do I expect everyone will think this way? Absolutely not, as I'm sure we'll see folks creating wishlists of things to buy as long as their arms -- just like I did 10-15 years ago. And that's what Lionel is counting on. I don't think they care one iota that they're losing good buyers like me -- as long as there are enough folks out there to replace those lost sales. And if we believe Lionel, there are.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Gary, I guess I'm in a different place these days. I've lost interest in "funding" Lionel's overhead. And the latest Challenger hiccup -- whatever the details may be that's got its delivery "on hold" -- is just another example of a QC blunder that should not be happening on what is essentially a product re-issue.
> 
> If Lionel is telling us they can't make quality trains at a less-than-ridiculous price point, then I really don't care if they survive or not. I -- and I suspect many other people can say this as well -- have more than enough trains to enjoy the hobby. New trains at this point are a superfluous luxury for me, as there are LOTS of ways to enjoy this hobby without chasing the latest new Lionel product offering(s) that are priced into the stratosphere. Enjoying the many trains on my roster, tacking some minor (and major) layout enhancements, and attending toy train (and real train) events are just a few examples.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Despite that, I will preorder a 4-6-6T. I *really *want a replacement for my (worn, sick, old) K-Line model. At that price, Lionel's model will either be great - as detailed or even more (admittedly that would be difficult) and as good a runner with better sound and no "issues" like the mis-painted screens on the recent BB Ps, or it will be the last thing I ever buy from Lionel.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Got to have Faith Lee, have faith. Things can't get worse can they?????


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

JoeSaggese said:


> I just looked at the catalog and I would like the PRR tank engine. I dont want to pre order tho.....


Where did you find a PRR Tank Engine? Certainly not in the latest catalog.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> I agree with you. Despite that, I will preorder a 4-6-6T. I *really *want a replacement for my (worn, sick, old) K-Line model. At that price, Lionel's model will either be great - as detailed or even more (admittedly that would be difficult) and as good a runner with better sound and no "issues" like the mis-painted screens on the recent BB Ps, or it will be the last thing I ever buy from Lionel.


What is a BB P?


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Nothing in there for me, I am still out of the Lionel pool (no lifeguard on duty), waiting for Lionel QA to improve, and it is only getting worse.

I did look over the new Lionel catalog though, and had a couple of giggles over the:

-Blue “Cincinattian” B&O EM-1:laugh:

-George H. W. Bush mint car, compete with coffin and Honor guard:laugh:


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Craignor said:


> Nothing in there for me, I am still out of the Lionel pool (no lifeguard on duty), waiting for Lionel QC to improve, and it is only getting worse.


Yeah, that about sums up what my wiser side is saying to me but there are two items in the catalog (a) I feel fairly confident will be produced to acceptable quality (they are passenger cars) and (b) will fit with what I already have. But I won’t be going in for ANY of the new engines although judging by forum posts here and elsewhere there’s no shortage of people who will. :smilie_auslachen:

I don’t want Lionel to fail any more than anyone who’s been in the hobby a few years would but their act is a long way from together.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Maybe a couple of PFE reefers. We have enough stuff on order from Scott and Rev Malcolm to more than break our budget.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Craignor said:


> What is a BB P?


Craig, Lee is referring to Lionel's recent Black Bonnet (Santa Fe) Alco PA locomotives. The screens are black on the A-units, but they're silver/grey on the B-units. And buyers of some of these PA's (all roadnames) have been reporting the locomotives do NOT remember their new programmed locomotive ID.

How long have Lionel locomotives had this feature? 20+ years maybe? And in 2019, some locomotives are now forgetting who they are??? 

David


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Craig, Lee is referring to Lionel's recent Black Bonnet (Santa Fe) Alco PA locomotives. The screens are black on the A-units, but they're silver/grey on the B-units. And buyers of some of these PA's (all roadnames) have been reporting the locomotives do NOT remember their new programmed locomotive ID.
> 
> How long have Lionel locomotives had this feature? 20+ years maybe? And in 2019, some locomotives are now forgetting who they are???
> 
> David


David,

Thanks for clearing that up.

I think the memory issue began in 2018.

I have a VL GG1 that had to be returned three times to Lionel to get all the problems worked out. New out of the box it wasn’t recognizing the TMCC signal, coming up in conventional, it was a bad board which Lionel replaced.

The second time it was returned for a bad smoke unit, stalling, and pilots not returning to center. 

The third and last time it was returned to Lionel was 11/26/18 because it arrived back from Lionel with everything in the previous paragraph fixed, but now it kept forgetting its programmed number and reverting to 1. I received it back from Lionel 12/6/18, with the problem resolved...I thought at the time that the forgetting was due to a bad run/program switch. Now, I believe it was the same problem as the PA people and others are reporting...a batch of bad boards.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Craig, Lee is referring to Lionel's recent Black Bonnet (Santa Fe) Alco PA locomotives. The screens are black on the A-units, but they're silver/grey on the B-units. And buyers of some of these PA's (all roadnames) have been reporting the locomotives do NOT remember their new programmed locomotive ID.
> 
> How long have Lionel locomotives had this feature? 20+ years maybe? And in 2019, some locomotives are now forgetting who they are???
> 
> David


Unfortunately a bad board whether in the screening of the traces or a batch of components is pretty much out of Lionel's hands until they have to deal with it. A small bridge of solder or a open trace can pretty much do it. 

We've had board in our trucks when x rayed by the vendor found issue within the boards. It sucks but it is a reality.


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## JoeSaggese (Aug 17, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Where did you find a PRR Tank Engine? Certainly not in the latest catalog.


I was so excited I didnt know what to call it, lol. I meant the docksider............. 

Thats what the fine print on the catalog called it. I hope I was looking at the right catalog.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> And in 2019, some locomotives are now forgetting who they are???
> 
> David


How ironic that that is happening to some of us, too, as we advance in age. I guess Legacy has come down with a type of digital Alzheimer's.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2019)

So far we have been lucky with our Lionel purchases. Will order a B&O EM-1, (7600), like the blue version as well. UP 4141 and the NS OCS ABBA set . Possibly UP 9096 as well. Also looking at a couple of boxcars. No Big Boy though. Was hoping for a coal burning Legacy version. The NS passenger cars will be from MTH. Thanks to Brian and Laz we are still "discussing" an AT&SF 3000 that is available. Too many wants at the same time. Awaiting the new Challengers as well. If this keeps up my RR will be in receivership!! LOL.

Gary.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

MartyE said:


> Unfortunately a bad board whether in the screening of the traces or a batch of components is pretty much out of Lionel's hands until they have to deal with it. A small bridge of solder or a open trace can pretty much do it.
> 
> We've had board in our trucks when x rayed by the vendor found issue within the boards. It sucks but it is a reality.


Marty, I seriously doubt this is a bad trace or other PCB issue. Lionel has clearly stated that they will have to reprogram them to fix them, so it seems it's a software glitch.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Got to admit, I'm really tempted by the UP passenger cars.

I'm beating the horse to death though. No Lionel until I see QC improvements. 

My 2-8-0 was a disaster (3 RAs, dealt with refund mess), Excursion cars all needed replaced by dealer (ate shipping on those), Moguls were a train wreck & handled poorly by Lionel (no pun intended-Gary knows all about it!), PAs forgetting ID, and now the VL Challengers are on hold for an undisclosed reason. 

Lionel is consistently delivering problems. Keep watching, we're going to see more soon.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> Got to admit, I'm really tempted by the UP passenger cars.


I think the funeral train is BTO but the add on cars are not so you can sit back and see how many folks are having issues before you buy. Dealers still have the Challenger cars months after they were released.
So far I have contacted 3 dealers about the possibility of set break ups on the funeral train but no one is willing yet.
Checking the pre order pricing it would actually be cheaper for two to go together on a set assuming one wants the engine and the other the 4 cars.

Pete


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