# Review: Lionel Vision PFE Reefers: Not Recommended for Conventional Operation



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

The photos below show the just-released Lionel Vision PFE reefer three-pack (6-81142). Further down I provide detailed comments. It was a Father’s Day present that arrived a few days early, and a delight to receive. All three of my sons like toy trains – they grew up with them – although only one seems to be into them in his adulthood now. Still, this was kind of a cool gift: three sons – three reefers. 

Take this review for what it is worth. I’m not an expert, just a guy seriously into model trains. 
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Overall:* this is an interesting and beautiful if expensive set of cars, but not recommended for conventional operation. I can’t speak to Legacy operation but it operates well when running under Lionchief Plus.

The two cars off by themselves on the upper track are the two "normal" cars from this pack. The car in the middle of those on he lower track) is one of this new set. Car to the left is an MTh reefer, than to the right, K-Line. You can clearly see the difference in color. 
















*Price:* Lionel offers a three-pack of these very same reefers (6-29989) in its current catalog for $239, but this Vision three-pack lists for $299. What you get for the extra $60 is that one of the cars, numbered 5888, is equipped with an electrcoupler and has a fatboy speaker with Lionel’s “Freightsounds sound board installed, so it “creates braking, scraping and bumping sounds as the locomotive changes speed” and moves. It also will produce either of two sound sequences called “loading” and “unloading,” upon special command. Basically, the three-pack includes two $80 list price normal reefers and one $140 freightsounds one.

*Appearance and Operation:* All three cars arrived in tip-top shape. All three are versions of Lionel’s premium level, standard (scale size) line reefers, which means they are intricately detailed with not just opening doors and ice hatches, but fully-modeled hinges and operating latches and handles on those doors, along with very low-friction bearings, top-notch couplers, and good looking metal trucks. Lionel’s best are really good scale reefers, no better than MTH’s best, but slightly better in my eyes than Atlas’s or older K-line scale reefers, still available on the used market. 
Lionel’s PFE reefers tend to be noticeably more orange than MTH’s (see photos) with Atlas’s and K-lines PFE reefers being somewhere in between. With these I have an even two dozen PFE reefers now, all scale, a mixture of scale reefers from those four companies, and the differences in color seem to me realistic.. Pacific Fruit Express’s 30,000 plus cars no doubt included various hues of paint and faded/unfaded/worn paint, too. Lionel’s reefers look mostly like new, recently painted cars. 

The car with Freightsounds (number 5888) weighs 19 ounces. The other two weight 14.1 ounces. Unless you turn them over that is the only difference you can tell between them.

*Buttons and switches:* the Freightsounds car has a PGM/RUN switch on its underside (Legacy or conventional operation) as well as a switch for minimum or maximum sound levels (there is no other volume adjustment – if you want no sound at all, I guess you just don’t run the car). Other than those switches, an electrcoupler on one truck, a speed sensor on the other truck, and the holes in the chassis floor for the speaker, it is identical to the other two cars.

*The Manual explains* all of the cars’ operation well. The first five pages of its 24 pages go over the basic cars’ features and preliminaries. Twelve of the next 19 pages outline how to program and operate the various Legacy features the car has in detail. Another three go over how to get its attention and “program” it is you have any of the TMCC and Cab1 and Cab 1L equipmemtn, which requires different procedures, etc. Exactly five lines of the manual address conventional operation. To summarize them in just two lines: the car will make the braking, squealing, banging and rolling noises it makes when it makes them, which is a function of speed and change in speed. And to trigger the unloading or loading sound sequences when it is stationary, hit the horn within fifteen seconds of stopping the car (unloading), or after 15 seconds of stopping to get the loading sequence sound track. 

*Sound: *the car makes nearly continuous rolling/wheel-noise/something as it moves- squeals, crunches, thumps and other sounds. If and as it slows it makes a rather relastic seires of braking sounds. It may be only one car, but it makes a whole trainload of noise – enough for twenty of more reefers. In fact, I doubt you want more than one of these cars in your trainroom at a tim : Sound when the volume switch is on maximum is quite loud – a good speaker and the sound board obviously has some oomph behind it. Sound when the switch is at minimum is muted but still very noticeable, and was more than enough for me, at least in the early morning. 

I’d always put it at the far end of a train, as far from the loco as possible, if I were using it: let the loco makes its noise, and let the freight makes its noise, keeping them apart, otherwise they interfere with one another, I expect.

The loading and unloading sounds are made only when the car is stationary, by operating the horn button (see explanation earlier). They are a series of scraps and thumps. I wouldn’t know what they were if listening to them without a hint, but okay, yes, the sounds certainly could be unloading or loading a reefer – I suppose beef being unloaded sounds a lot different than tomatoes, but whatever – it makes sounds and it can be fun to push the button and have the car make them.

*Electrocoupler:* if you can operate this conventionally I could not find out where that was mentioned in the manual or figure out how to do it. I’m not sure how useful an electrocoupler on a reefer is anyway, but regardless it does me no good. I suppose you could put the car at the end of a train so you could uncouple the caboose. Anyway, I would definitely put it there.

*Not recommended for conventional operation.* I definitely do not recommend this for those who operate conventionally, or without Legacy/TMCC. My reasons are:

Freightsounds does not dependably operate below about 15 volts. I set the operation switch to run and put the freightsounds car on the track with a Lionel dockside switcher (which has no sound to interfere with my hearing its sounds) and powered up the track to 10 volts with a ZW-L. The car produced a continuous thump-thump-thump-thump from the speaker – about two to three thumps per second. I did not sound like wheels clicking or rolling, etc., but more like the type of feedback thump you get from circuitry that isn’t happy. The sound stayed the same whether the car and loco were moving or not, forward or backward. 
I thought the car was broken, but removed the loco and ramped the power up to full power. It stopped making any sound at all. When I pushed it along the track, it started making really loud and interesting rolling sounds, some squealing, and somewhat realistic thumping sounds – as I said, enough for a whole train. When I stopped rolling it in made plenty of braking noises, etc. I’m not sure the sounds are realistic, but they are fun! So are the loading and unloading sequences. 

However, the car I have refuses to consistently make these sounds if track voltage is below 14 volts. It just goes thump-thump-thump.

I usually run my locos at around 10-13 volts, which gives realistic scale speeds and that’s how I run them. I never run 15 volts of more – it’s just too fast. So at any speed I am going to run my locomotives, this car just goes thump-thump-thump. So the car’s freightsounds aren’t so useful too me. And neither, for that matter, are the loading and unloading sound sequences: the only way a conventional operator can trigger them is to hit the horn button. Any locomotive on the track, like the one that would be pulling this car, will sound its horn at that time, and that is pretty much all I will hear. 

I can’t speak to how satisfactory this car is in Legacy, but it operates well with Lionchief Plus. I operated it behind a Lionchief loco with track voltage set to 16 volts and it did very nicely. It produces a wonderful cacophony of rolling stock-sounds – as I said enough for an entire train. 

*What Did I Do With It?* Beyond a good short-term fun factor, I’m not sure I would want freight sounds all the time. Most of the time, I prefer just to listen to chuffing or diesel rumble along with the smell of smoke. Still, sometimes it might be fun. So I installed a small switch inside the car (I can reach in through the doors) that interrupts flow to one lead to the speaker when off, so I can turn the sound on or off completely.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Turning off the sounds in command is easy, but I can see conventional mode might post a challenge.

I don't have my set yet, it's in the mail somewhere, does it have provision for a battery like the Vision Line tank cars? If so, maybe adding the battery would help with the lower voltage operation.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Turning off the sounds in command is easy, but I can see conventional mode might post a challenge.
> 
> I don't have my set yet, it's in the mail somewhere, does it have provision for a battery like the Vision Line tank cars? If so, maybe adding the battery would help with the lower voltage operation.


Well, the manual does not say it has a battery holder inside, and I didn't see one when I installed the switch.

I will be inetrested in what your set does, particularly if it also will only thump-thump at less than 15 volts. 

BY THE WAY, a BIG Clarification. It does have a volume adjustment: it is under one of the roof top hatches, but even turned to minimum, mine still made quite a lot of noise - enough for me. The MIN-MAX button makes far less noise when set to "Min," yes, but according to the manual , that is because it cuts out about half of the dialogue and background noise leaving just the car-rolling sounds, etc., and not as much sound. To me is just sounds like less noise - maybe that is only in Legacy, too, that you get all those other sounds it supposely does in "Max."


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll know soon, I should have them in a few days.


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## emd Bill (Feb 4, 2014)

*Lee we miss you*

Hi Lee,

Did you bail again from the OGR site?
We sure miss you!
What happened?
regards,

emd Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes, emd Bill. I won't be back either. I had issues with deletions and administration. I like this a lot more, and as you have noted (and proven), I have a lot of friends here.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They are getting a little obnoxious over at OGR about removing threads for little or no reason.


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## emd Bill (Feb 4, 2014)

*Lee, you are in good company*

Lee,
I hope that you are going to continue your great projects on this forum without the frustration you experienced on that other forum!
Its great to see gunrunnerjohn post here as well!
thanks,
Bill
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/gallery/files/2/2/6/7/sweatyemoticon.gif


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've been here quite a while Bill, it's nice to see a few OGR folks fleeing the madness.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've been here quite a while Bill, it's nice to see a few OGR folks fleeing the madness.


Yes, I joined a year ago but did not post until about ten days ago. Gunrunnerjohn had already been on this forum a long, long time when I joined then. 

I think I will be here quite a while, too. As I have said before, when you don't like the food and service at a resaurant, you find another restaurant. So far I like the food and service a lot better here!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Lee, I think you will find this a friendly forum.


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## Dano (Aug 26, 2012)

I think that my conventional stuff makes all that racket (except for squealing brakes) without all the wizardry! Probably comes from not paying enough attention to sound proofing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dano, you have to oil them once in a while.


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## Dano (Aug 26, 2012)

John, I do oil them! That is why I don't have the squealing brake sound.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee, your set may be broken. I took the sound car out of the box and just put it on a test track with a true-RMS voltmeter monitoring the track voltage. It runs reliably at 8 volts, and a little less. About 7.5 volts and below it starts to have issues with the audio. I couldn't get it to fail at a measured 8 volts, I get all the sounds you get in conventional mode that way. Of course, I'm just running it back and forth on 30" of track, but I don't think it'll act any different on a full layout. I'll give it another try under power, I just have to dig out a conventional locomotive to tow it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I am running it with my little K-Line Plymouth switcher, it's one of the few conventional pieces I still have. As slow as I can run it without the Plymouth stalling, the car still has normal sounds. That's around 8.5-9.0 volts on the track. I did have the track voltage down to around 8 volts and managed to get it into the mode you mentioned, or maybe a modification of it. It was making some noises, but not the full set, almost like it dropped into the "minimum" setting. It's running around with about 9 volts on the track, and it's run for 10 minutes with no glitches in the sounds, noisy little bugger! 

FWIW, mine isn't perfect. I think something may be missing mechanically as the volume control is just flopping around inside. I can pull it over to adjust it, but it's loose. I took the top off and looked, I thought it might be a loose screw, the bracket is just clamped with a plastic standoff when the car is screwed together. I'm guessing there is supposed to be something else, as when I put it together and tightened everything, it still flops around. I'll get around to fixing it properly at some point.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Lee, your set may be broken. I took the sound car out of the box and just put it on a test track with a true-RMS voltmeter monitoring the track voltage. It runs reliably at 8 volts, and a little less. About 7.5 volts and below it starts to have issues with the audio. I couldn't get it to fail at a measured 8 volts, I get all the sounds you get in conventional mode that way. Of course, I'm just running it back and forth on 30" of track, but I don't think it'll act any different on a full layout. I'll give it another try under power, I just have to dig out a conventional locomotive to tow it.


So now, what to do? Return it, or live with it. I measured mine: it makes sound dependably at only above 13.5 volts. Below 12 volts, it only thump-thump-thumps. Between 12 and 13.5, it will cut back in and out between that and normal as it runs.

I did run it this afternoon behind (14 cars behind to be exact) an LC+ steamer running on 16 volts, and it was a lot of fun. The loco would chuff by, and then a few moments later this squeaking, noisy rear of the train. I admit - it is a lot of fun. 

Can your volume adjustment knob make the sound go all the way down to zero. Mine, as I said, has only a little effect.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I didn't try the volume control, wait one... 

Yep, all the way CCW and I have no sound.

I believe VL stuff is free shipping both ways, I'd send it back to Lionel for repair.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I will keep it as is: works fine with LC+.

In fairness to Lionel, I really can't return it: I have taken the shell off twice, and installed that switch to completely turn off the volume since my volume control won't I don't think it is reasonable to expect them to repair a product like that. Also, I replaced the volume control rheostat, thinking it might be bad (it made no difference, the problem I have must be only in the sound board).

But it would be nice to run Freightsounds with conventional locos, at least if the sound is turned down a bit it is a lot of fun. I think the easiest thing to do is just buy another set. Never can have too many reefers, you know.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm guessing, since it works at higher voltages, you're probably missing a ground somewhere. It's not hard to take the shell off, you have to take the trucks off first with a single screw, there is two screws, one at each end, under the trucks. I'll probably have to pull mine apart again and figure a way to secure the volume control bracket so it doesn't flop around inside.

Of course, you could wait for my RF remote sound car for conventional running, it works down around 8 volts as well.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

John, I've taken he shell off twice now, so that is not a problem. I'd do it again if I thought I could fix something. Last time I had it off, I prowled around looking for a loose ground or a unclipped connector but found nothing I could see that was loose, etc. 

There may be a flawed ground lead, etc. on the board, but regardless I'll just leave it alone. This one works with LC+ and so it will be my LC+ freightsounds car. I might get one other for running with conventional freight.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My concern would be that it would crap out fairly quickly. I can't imagine what flaw would cause that and not be a bad thing. Clearly, something is amiss as I get totally different performance with mine. I'll let you know about the second one when I get it, maybe it'll work like yours.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

Just being in the same room with Lee, is worth entering.


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## captaincog (Oct 7, 2012)

I unpacked my set and ran them and nothing was wrong. I did run them in command mode and I read the manual which stated to bring the track up to full power, 18 volts, to run them. Maybe I am missing something here? I did not read anywhere where they were meant to be run in conventional?


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

captaincog said:


> I unpacked my set and ran them and nothing was wrong. I did run them in command mode and I read the manual which stated to bring the track up to full power, 18 volts, to run them. Maybe I am missing something here? I did not read anywhere where they were meant to be run in conventional?


What type of trains? I run Legacy and Premier locos in conventional because I prefer conventional operation: they don't float my boat. The catalogs explain that they are designed to run in either mode, and in fact Lionel mentions often in its catalogs that Legacy has been re-designed in the last few to give better conventional starting operation, etc. (and it definitely does since about 2012). The manuals always explain how to run them in conventional and it works very well 

Running in conventional is just me - not trying to convince others. I had Legacy when I first got back into O-Gauge, but it and its "programming" and controller buttons and commend lists were too much like what I do at work. The recent Vision PFE reefers are examples: twelve pages in the manual on how to program the address for the car, operate its features, and all. That might be fun for many folks, and more power to them, but its just likewhat i do at work, and frankly, too complicated for when I am relaxing at home. In addition, for me, running conventional, just as my Dad taught me to do in 1953, is part of the "comfort" and "inner peace" (trying not to be corny here, sorry if I am) that I seek when running trains. 

I like LC+ because it can go conventional or use a simple remote not involving orange digital loco-number keys and command lists and so much that is just like what i do at work.


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## captaincog (Oct 7, 2012)

Lee Willis said:


> What type of trains? I run Legacy and Premier locos in conventional because I prefer conventional operation: they don't float my boat. The catalogs explain that they are designed to run in either mode, and in fact Lionel mentions often in its catalogs that Legacy has been re-designed in the last few to give better conventional starting operation, etc. (and it definitely does since about 2012). The manuals always explain how to run them in conventional and it works very well
> 
> Running in conventional is just me - not trying to convince others. I had Legacy when I first got back into O-Gauge, but it and its "programming" and controller buttons and commend lists were too much like what I do at work. The recent Vision PFE reefers are examples: twelve pages in the manual on how to program the address for the car, operate its features, and all. That might be fun for many folks, and more power to them, but its just likewhat i do at work, and frankly, too complicated for when I am relaxing at home. In addition, for me, running conventional, just as my Dad taught me to do in 1953, is part of the "comfort" and "inner peace" (trying not to be corny here, sorry if I am) that I seek when running trains.
> 
> I like LC+ because it can go conventional or use a simple remote not involving orange digital loco-number keys and command lists and so much that is just like what i do at work.


No problem Lee. I was wondering if I missed something. I run conventional just as much as command control but I do like to use a Legacy or TMCC Remote to do so. I like the tech stuff so that is me. Whatever works for you is great.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I tried the second PFE sound reefer on conventional, no problem at all at 8 volts track power.


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## Patstrains (Jun 13, 2015)

I wish they would have included two sound cars in this set and the coil couplers were not needed.
Thanks
Pat
WWW.PATSTRAINS.COM


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You're right about the coil couplers, I find those pretty useless on these and the vision line tank cars and the cattle car. I would have much rather had two sound cards in the set, that would really be cool!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

The coupler feature is worthless to me, too. As to putting two sound cars in a pack, I would love it. But frankly Lionel would be stupid to do that: I think very few people would buy two sets like Gunrunnerjohn did. My experience with a single one is that you need only one car per train. 

I shopped around for a second set, by the way, but by the time I was ready to buy, Patrick was out and all my backup seller were, too. There are a very few available still but they are at places I have not bought at like Trainworld - probably a good shop but I'm not going to start with a new vendor for this. I'll stick to the one, wounded as it is. As I said, it works well for LC+ now. So be it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee, I want to get a few sound cars throughout the train and just turn the volume down so there's a huge variety of sounds as the train rolls by. I think that'll really add to the realism of the sounds.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

John, mine makes a rather constant set of noises. It seems to be what they advertised. When its rolling it makes "freight cars moving" noises, and when its slowing it adds braking squeals, and it does its loading and unloading sequence. My point is that with two on a train, or more, I would get just more of the same noise, maybe distributed along the train. I suppose that might make a difference, the the same thing as "why are there a bunch of violins in a symphony, not just one?" but I would want to turn the volume on each down, too. Mine is _loud_ at full, louder than all but a few of my loudest chuffers. Several would make to too loud to think.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The don't do the sounds in sync, so they do add some dimension. When I get a few more of my audio cars put together, then I'll have a bunch of different sound clips that can play as they roll and really have some variety.

I agree the volume on those is pretty loud, I was surprised as there's only one small speaker in there. With a few sound cars, I think a lower volume to just have it more as "background" sounds would be the way to go.

I put a four ohm speaker on my sound board and it really boosted the volume as well, I was using the 8 ohm ERR speakers that I have a bunch of from upgrades. I'll probably continue to use the 8 ohm speaker as it's plenty loud anyway.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The don't do the sounds in sync, so they do add some dimension. When I get a few more of my audio cars put together, then I'll have a bunch of different sound clips that can play as they roll and really have some variety.
> 
> I agree the volume on those is pretty loud, I was surprised as there's only one small speaker in there. With a few sound cars, I think a lower volume to just have it more as "background" sounds would be the way to go.
> 
> I put a four ohm speaker on my sound board and it really boosted the volume as well, I was using the 8 ohm ERR speakers that I have a bunch of from upgrades. I'll probably continue to use the 8 ohm speaker as it's plenty loud anyway.


What sounds are you contemplating on having?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Whatever I can find. As soon as I can line it up, I'm going for a ride with a local freight company and sticking a couple of sound recorders on several cars. I'll move them for the return trip and see what I get.


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## BFI66 (Feb 7, 2013)

Very informative thread. Received my PFE. reefers, a few days ago, luckily, I have not experienced any difficulties. My only problem is that I did not order a second set right away. Seems you snooze you lose with these BTO trains. Prices seem to have increased to almost 1/3 more over the preorder prices.

-Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

*In for a Dime, in for a Quarter?*

Well, time to bite the bullet. I checked Menard's teaser about their next product (later this week) and can't tell what this week's new release will be. 

Regardless, I've decided I am tired of waiting for tanks cars to _maybe_ come from Menards. So I contacted Patricks Trains and worked with him to find fifteen he had in stock that meet my needs and budget: single dome scale-size tank cars, in this case all MTH. I got a good price, too: No, not as low as Menard's (nothing else would be, would it?). But then I'm getting MTH quality: lower-friction bearings and smoother ioperating couplers and a detail beyond just cast in, including separately applied dome railings , ladders, valves on the tank ends, etc. All in all, I am very pleased and cant wait to get them. 

I'm going to repaint the whole bunch in my "Canon City livery and weather them slightly. They will make just what I want, a nice, long, all-tank-car train. Yummy!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That sounds great Lee, I'm jealous.


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