# Qs of the year!!



## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

ok let me start by saying my layout is 4 feet by 16 feet, i have 2 cw 80 (80 watt) transformers on 2 fast track layouts no crossovers just one solid track on both layouts. heres were it gets tricky so pay attention, i was running a railking proto2 diesel train on this setup for a week or two, all the proto sounds and train ran and worked fine, then i bought a mth tinplate traditions proto2 263e train brand new, it ran ok at first then started to run wierd like the direction button on the cw80 wouldnt move the train. then when it did it would run slow then fast with the thottle in one spot. also no station or passenger sounds when i did the 1 bell 2 whistles that the train reqiures to work. so i moved it to the other track next to it and it did same thing. then i got my railking aba diesel proto2 and tried to rule out the 263e having problems, well the aba did same thing. so now i am thinking it has got to 25 degrees in my garage at night but NO moisture is in my garage at all. so i took a cw80 that i have on my inside basement trains that is always at room temp. and hooked it up outside to my track and the trains ran fine. so thinking that it is the cold i brought the 2 cw80s inside for 5 hours to warm up then brought back out and they still didnt run my proto2 trains very well. now keep in mind that my traditional trains with no proto2s (williams f3 and f7) they run great with no issues, so the cw80s are fine for those. could it be the cold shortened the voltage a little on my cw 80s? but not with a proto2 system which reqiures more voltage ? or could it be the 263e messed up my cw80s somehow?? thanks for your time guys


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I've read bad things about MTH and CW-80's. It has to do with the power generation not being a linear sine wave. If possible I'd upgrade transformer to something like the Lionel KW, ZW or MTH z4000. The Lionel PW transformers lack a bell button, which GRJ had a thread on building such an item.

Carlhttp://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=21912&highlight=cw-80+mth&page=2




gunrunnerjohn said:


> The CW-80 is a poor choice for MTH stuff, they specifically state it's not compatible with a number of their locomotives.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

Kwikster said:


> I've read bad things about MTH and CW-80's. It has to do with the power generation not being a linear sine wave. If possible I'd upgrade transformer to something like the Lionel KW, ZW or MTH z4000. The Lionel PW transformers lack a bell button, which GRJ had a thread on building such an item.
> 
> Carlhttp://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=21912&highlight=cw-80+mth&page=2


If that's true than why is lionel stating this? Just asking cause now I'm confused ??

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/lionel-transformer-sine-wave-video?nc=1


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

Ok I looked in my MTH manuals for my proto2 trains and they all say to use a mthz-500 to 4000 transformer but If you notice in pic below my cw80 is a chopped sine wave just like the MTH ones they say to use with my MTH proto2s. so from the video of lionel http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/lionel-transformer-sine-wave-video?nc=1
they say (at 18:00 min. into the vid.) that a chopped sine wave is better than a smooth (or pure I assume ) sine wave now what should I believe here? Just asking not telling
And I guess it could be a cold thing that effected my transformers??


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

This is from a engineer of the video forum same page under the video


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

I am not for sure but I think I figured it out my garage is 10 degrees warmer today and the MTH trains are running ok again some annocements are hard to catch on my Aba diesel proto2 but leads me to believe it is the combination of cold and the length of the track, you see the garage track is 4 by 16 with no jumper just one terminal track but when I run the trains on the indoor 4 x 8 track they all run fine even the Aba diesel MTH gets all the annocements. Could this just be a issue of length ? But then again when it is warm on the garage 4 by 16 track I get all the annocements ??? I think cold has to do with how a cw80 performs. I guess Lionel's r and d department missed testing a cw80 for temperature ????


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The CW-80 has some unique waveform characteristics that apparently cause issues with some MTH stuff. This has been demonstrated a number of times in various venues. Usually, it works fine, and the stuff "should" be designed to ignore that kind of thing, but apparently not all are.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

Well I am going to do a test and buy a MTH z-1000 that MTH recommends in all the trains manuals I have and see if it does the same thing as a cw80 I don't see the differance since they both are the same chopped sine wave only differance is MTH trans is 100watts and cw80 is 80 watts both are 5 amp will the extra 20 watts really make the differance or is this just MTHs way of getting people to buy there product?? I'll keep ya posted on this exsperiment folks! But I really think its the cold that's doing all this


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The CW-80 has some unique waveform characteristics that apparently cause issues with some MTH stuff. This has been demonstrated a number of times in various venues. Usually, it works fine, and the stuff "should" be designed to ignore that kind of thing, but apparently not all are.


But the wave is the same (chopped) acording to the lionel tech in the video?? Just asking not telling here thanks


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

also noticed something else, i have 4 mth proto2 trains but only 2 manuals call for the mth z500,750 and 1000 and 4000, but 2 manuals call for lionel transformers and not any mth?? so even if i bought the correct matching mth to my train that leaves 2 mth trains that are not compatible to a mth transformer?? very confusing, this means if i switch trains on a track i would have to switch transformers everytime?? doesnt make sence, I think this is all a political business move to make money??:smilie_daumenneg:


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Krazikev:

My understanding is that the MTH Power Bricks are constant 18VAC sine wave with a 14VAC tap for accessories. Once any transformer has an adjustable output, chopped up sine waves are possible unless the transformer is very old.

I use two MTH 100 watt power bricks for my track and accessories and have no problems with my remote controlled DCS/TIU/AIU.

Commercial semiconductors (plastic encapsulated type) are temperature rated typical 0 to 100 degree C. 0 degrees C is freezing or 32 degrees F. If your DCS equipment is in a 25 degree F garage then you are several degrees below the guaranteed operating range of the commercial grade semiconductor. Weird DCS operation is probably the norm at that temperature.

The disadvantage of the MTH 100 watt power brick is the circuit breaker in the brick is useless. It is too slow acting and allows the TIU fuses to blow. You need to install either external fast blowing fuses (about 10 amps) or a magnetic operated circuit breaker with an operating curve that is very fast. The Lionel 180 watt power brick circuit breaker is very fast and needs no optional circuit protection. They are impossible to find new the last time i looked but are available used on EBAY. Make sure any used power brick you use gets checked out for correct operation of the circuit breaker before installing it or you may find out how many screws there are in the TIU when you have to change out the blown 20 amp fuses inside it.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, the exception to the chopped waveform rule is the MTH Z4000. It has true sine wave outputs on all the variable channels.

You should experience no issues with running commercial semiconductor stuff at 25F, the ratings are very conservative to say the least.

My favorite power for command operation is the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks. They have a lightning fast electronic breaker and supply a true 180 watts of power. I've never had any TIU fuses go with the PH180 bricks.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually, the exception to the chopped waveform rule is the MTH Z4000. It has true sine wave outputs on all the variable channels.
> 
> You should experience no issues with running commercial semiconductor stuff at 25F, the ratings are very conservative to say the least.
> 
> My favorite power for command operation is the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks. They have a lightning fast electronic breaker and supply a true 180 watts of power. I've never had any TIU fuses go with the PH180 bricks.


When you say lionel powerhouse do you mean there cw180 ??


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

Ok I spoke to a MTH tech guy today and as far as there compatable list of transformers in my manuals he said and I quote " can't go by what is printed in the manual cause that is printed in china and they don't know about trains" unquote. He also said that it is possible that my MTH trains run good on my smaller track with the cw80 than on the bigger track due to the smaller distance. So I guess my best bet would be to buy a cw180 so I have more watts to power them cause he said that the extra watts is all I need regardless of brand.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

Lynn D Bennett said:


> Krazikev:
> 
> My understanding is that the MTH Power Bricks are constant 18VAC sine wave with a 14VAC tap for accessories. Once any transformer has an adjustable output, chopped up sine waves are possible unless the transformer is very old.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply but I don't run a dcs or a tiu board just a cw80 straight to my track, also were is the semiconductor ? In my transformer or the dcs unit you talked about???


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm actually talking about the PowerHouse 180, which is the brick that is part of the GW-180 transformer set. The PH180 is also a separate sale item. If you run strictly command, it's pointless to have the variable voltage control in the mix, at least IMO.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm actually talking about the PowerHouse 180, which is the brick that is part of the GW-180 transformer set. The PH180 is also a separate sale item. If you run strictly command, it's pointless to have the variable voltage control in the mix, at least IMO.


When you say command do you mean that I run transformer to track because this is how my set up is? I have proto 2 trains and conventional trains and think I Need more watts that's why I said I should get a z 1000 or gw180, what do you think would work for me with my setup with proto2 and conventional trains on a straight 4 x 16 with no turnouts and just transformer to track?? Thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you have PS/2 and conventional, I'm assuming you're using the TIU to control the conventional equipment? If so, all you need is a constant voltage power source to the input of the TIU, there's no need for variable voltage on the inputs.

Since you have two independent loops, you could probably use either a couple of 100W transformers, or the one 180W one. My choice would be the PH180 as it has a much better circuit breaker than the MTH Z1000 bricks.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you have PS/2 and conventional, I'm assuming you're using the TIU to control the conventional equipment? If so, all you need is a constant voltage power source to the input of the TIU, there's no need for variable voltage on the inputs.
> 
> Since you have two independent loops, you could probably use either a couple of 100W transformers, or the one 180W one. My choice would be the PH180 as it has a much better circuit breaker than the MTH Z1000 bricks.


No I only use a cw80 straight to my 4x16 oval fastrack layout and get all the sounds from pressing bell whistle buttons works fine intull the cold weather set in also the same setup on my basement 4x8 layout and ps2 always works great on that


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Sorry gunrunnerjohn, but I have to disagree with you about cold temperatures effecting plastic semi-conductors. If the layout worked before the cold, its gets cold and the lower temperature limit on the IC's is 32 degree F then it might just be the cold especially when the trains then operate fine when warmed up and run inside the house. Mil Spec parts have a larger operating range than the plastic commercial parts. When we tested circuits full of Mil Spec IC's for military applications at lower temperatures, sometimes weird things happened. The temp limits are stated for a reason.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You're obviously free to disagree.  

I designed avionics for many years, and there were many instances where we had to use commercial parts screened for -40C/+85C operation, as MIL spec parts were simply not available. My experience was that very few failed the screening. I saw very few parts, including complex LSI logic and processors that wouldn't start and run reliably at -40C. I never saw a packaging failure because of low temperature. 

The temperature ratings refer to operational characteristics, not issues with the plastic packages. The storage temperature of a typical plastic package is -65C to 150C.

It's FAR more likely that the cold would affect other parts long before the plastic IC's. Remember, it would be just a few minutes at most before self-heating brings that IC into the spec range, however that isn't much of an issue. 

Just walk out to your car and check the electronics in that out, many of the parts are normal commercial temperature range parts. I've asked those parts to function as cold as -20F without any issues, that's -29C.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

ok guys but can you aswer my previous qs, were is this semi conductor thing that you all are talking about in the cold,is it in my train or in the dcs or tiu or......


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

Yes, in all of the above. There has to be smarts in all places (remote, engine, TIU).

An interesting test would be to subject each item separately to the 25 degree F temperature and keep the other items warmed in the house. Quickly set up the layout and see which of the three is the most temperature sensitive. Of course, the first test is to bring all three into the house and warm them then take them out into the cold and see if the layout then works. It only takes one of three to act weird to make the operation act weird.

The electronic components used in these devices probably are similar to those found in wireless phones. Apple limits the operation of their iOS devices to a operating temperature range of 32 F to 95 F. I see no reason that the MTH DSC would have a wider operating range than an apple iOS device. (Reference http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2101.) Auto electronic have to work in all temperatures. DCS was probably never designed to the same operating temperature range of a car or a military electronics system and more than likely made to operate in an environment that humans would normally live in. Anyway that's my opinion. The above testing could prove me right or wrong (??).

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FYI, I just put one of my TIU's in the freezer overnight and I'm currently running trains after taking it out. It was only a couple of minutes from -4F in the freezer to powered up and running under DCS control. No ill effects of any kind, and everything is working properly. The biggest issue is condensation with the sudden temperature change, but if you're running in a cold environment, that really isn't an issue. I actually see some condensation through the vents, but there's no effect on operation.

I'll say again, this is a non-issue for 99.99% of the consumer electronics. I've been doing this for over 40 years, and I think I have a pretty good experience base on the effects of extreme temperatures on semiconductors. 

This will be my last post on the temperature topic, obviously others are free to disagree.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

I also run 1/24 slot cars that have brushed motors and small circuit boards in them . Had those in there for 10 years wih no issues. I wish gunnerjohn would have threw a train in the freezer to test before giving up on this thread, that's what I have been really tring to figure out here o well thanks all for the help.


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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

Krazikez,

If your MTH engine is not responding well to the cold, it is most likely caused by a bad solder joint on some component. 

You can verify this by doing exactly as you suggested. Place your loco in the freezer overnight and then place it on your track. Do this while all the other pieces are already warm (are you running the full DCS system?) if so, keep the remote and TIU warm while you freeze the engine. 

If it fails while cold, but works when it's warm, the easiest thing to do is have the board replaced. If you are adventurous, there are ways to detect and locate a bad solder joint but it would involve a microscope on these boards. 


Posted via Tapatalk


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

enginEErjon said:


> Krazikez,
> 
> If your MTH engine is not responding well to the cold, it is most likely caused by a bad solder joint on some component.
> 
> ...


I guess you didn't read the whole thread, I mentioned that I don't run dcs and my MTH runs great when indoors


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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

I did read it all. But that was yesterday. 

The freezer suggestion still stands as it sounds like a bad solder joint on the board inside the engine. 


Posted via Tapatalk


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

enginEErjon said:


> I did read it all. But that was yesterday.
> 
> The freezer suggestion still stands as it sounds like a bad solder joint on the board inside the engine.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I really don't think a solder joint is bad, if that was the case it would be bad all the time. freezing a circuit board would not fix the problem, I used to work at a job on circuit boards so I would know, just saying, but thank you for the reply


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> FYI, I just put one of my TIU's in the freezer overnight and I'm currently running trains after taking it out.





Krazikev said:


> I wish gunnerjohn would have threw a train in the freezer to test before giving up on this thread, that's what I have been really tring to figure out here o well thanks all for the help.


:laugh:
Now this is taking it to the extreme. 
Please do a train for him too John, very interesting.

I don't know a lot about electronics gizmos but but I agree with John, take my work tractor, it is filled with all kinds of the new electronics and can sit all weekend in minus degree temperatures and fire right up Monday morning with no ill effect on the electronics.. 
My 99 Pu truck has been going for almost 15 years now and I have not touched the electronics at all. 
One small problem I seem to have is when it sits over a real cold weekend the radio won't play until the inside temperatures warm up some. It lights up and has power but no sound?
Do some more experiments John. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## enginEErjon (Nov 16, 2013)

Krazikev said:


> With all due respect, I really don't think a solder joint is bad, if that was the case it would be bad all the time. freezing a circuit board would not fix the problem, I used to work at a job on circuit boards so I would know, just saying, but thank you for the reply



No worries Krazikev. It's your engine. But if you do a search for bad solder joint on google images, you'll see how it could be affected by temperature. Cracking a solder joint is really easy to do on a any electronic gear. 
I only suggested it because I have had 2 MTH products in the last year that have had bad solder joints. One was on a PS3 loco on the wireless drawbar, the second was inside a DCS TIU on the Transient Suppressor Diode. Both of these caused erratic behavior.


Regardless, I hope you do figure out what the problem is and get it resolved. 


Posted via Tapatalk


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## Lynn D Bennett (Jul 27, 2013)

My new PS3 Premier GP-30 had a faulty 2/3 rail selector switch (in the 3 rail position) such that only one side of the locomotive's wheels was picking up power. Some track switches hate that. Not having any experience with any modern O gauge trains I was horrified by what I saw inside. Neatness was totally absent with tons of wiring running all over the place. They used wire nuts (!!!!) for some of the connections. The engine runs fine now after I hard wired the engine to three rail. Two other new engines since purchased from MTH perform perfectly right out of the box. They were MTH RailKing engines. Paying more for MTH Premier engines does not seem to get you better quality, only more detailing.

LDBennett


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I suepct an engine would not fare as well as the TIU in the freezer, as the mechanical parts are much more likely to object to the cold. However, I believe it would probably work, so if anyone wants to send me one to test, I'm in.


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## Krazikev (Nov 28, 2013)

enginEErjon said:


> No worries Krazikev. It's your engine. But if you do a search for bad solder joint on google images, you'll see how it could be affected by temperature. Cracking a solder joint is really easy to do on a any electronic gear.
> I only suggested it because I have had 2 MTH products in the last year that have had bad solder joints. One was on a PS3 loco on the wireless drawbar, the second was inside a DCS TIU on the Transient Suppressor Diode. Both of these caused erratic behavior.
> 
> 
> ...


you don't get it if I cracked a solder joint the train would NEVER run again intull I fix it. but my train does work perfect when I run it inside


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