# newbie ques - insulated frogs ?



## spacomp92653 (Jul 5, 2018)

I want to build a new On30 layout and use On30 flex track and maybe a turnout or 2. I also want the option of running DCC. 

Re: turnouts I'd appreciate a basic explanation of what must be done to use turnouts with DCC, how to modify turnouts that don't work on DCC, simple enough that a dummy like me can understand.

Are there ANY DCC ready turnouts for On30?

Is it tough to modify turnouts? Should I scrap this idea and just use HO track and turnouts?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the difference between HO track and ON30 track is just tie spacing ?? with fewer ties for ON30 .... you can use regular HO, most people won't notice the difference, or even know, lol


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Pay no attention to the various claims of DCC special
track, turnouts or whatever. DCC locos run fine
on any turnout regardless of whether the frog is
insulated or powered.

There is NOTHING that needs to be done to use
any turnout on a DCC layout.

I have 10 DCC locos running thru 20 or so Peco
INSULFROG turnouts. They happily run through
without so much as a blink of the headlight.
And NONE have 'stay alive' caps. They don't need
them.

The only concern regarding insulated frogs is if you
have a short wheelbase switcher that has only 4
power pickup wheels...or some of the older locos that
did not have all wheel power pickup.

The most popular turnouts have insulated frogs.
So chose your turnouts based on quality or price.
Forget the DCC friendly claims.

However, to keep your DCC (or DC) trains running smoothly,
it is necessary to regularly clean the tracks and the loco
wheels to insure continfued electrical continuity.

Don


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

What Don said.

I purchased a Life Like Proto 200 SW8 with QSI decoder. It was just as Walthers purchased the company, so it was a true Life Like model.

It came with an axle that had traction tires already installed. No others were included. That loco would stumble across my Fast Tracks #8 turnouts which are dcc-friendly with the gapped frogs. It also had problems with curved Walthers/Shinohara #7.5 and #8 turnouts, and with my Peco Streamline Code 83 Insulfrog turnouts. I called Walthers, they being the new guy, and was able to get to a friendly rep on the phone right away. He didn't question me, but offered to send me a non-traction axle to fit that loco. I got in inside of 2 weeks and installed it myself. That cured the problems.

However, none of my other locos has ever had a problem getting across any of the aforementioned turnouts, not even a really long handlaid curved #10 that I built out of necessity to close my unique loop's geometry. Same for the SW8.

You have to maintain your rolling stock and track system. If the Big Guys have to, so do we. Clean and lube. If you have tracks that seem to need cleaning all the time, and you know you have been cleaning it well leaving no residues or gums, and your train room is clean, then try scrubbing the rails with a steel washer that is about 1.5" in diameter (3+ cm). Place it on the rails rounded edge side down...you don't want the sharp stamped edge snagging a frog point or lifting up a guard rail....or a point!! Also, it wouldn't hurt to clean it thoroughly in paint thinner, lacquer thinner, or varsol. Naptha would probably do as well if you have some lying around. Acetone is eminently suitable, probably best of all of them, but it's not likely to be something you'll have handy in pure form.

Your car and loco tires must also be kept clean, the wipers as well on the axles/wheel backs, and the wipers making firm contact where they must.

From there, make doubly sure your track power is reliable and frequent. You'd be surprised what pushing down on a joint with a wooden dowel will show at the multimeter's reading panel.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It appears none of us clearly answered the OPs
question regarding power for his turnouts.

DCC controllers do not provide power for turnouts.

Most of us use an old DC power pack for that
purpose. Others use a salvaged wall wart producing
12 or so volts.

The best and safest way to control your turnouts
is the Stapleton 751. It is available for either
twin coil, single coil or stall motor (Tortoise) type
motors.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/751D.HTM

These controls provide for panel or track side signal
control and those designed for twin coil or single coil
have built in CPU to protect coils from accidental burnout.

Don


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Wow....what Don said...AGAIN!! We did get into the weeds...and beached.

On30 is designed to run on plain old HO tracks. That means any type of suitable HO turnout would do as well.

Once you get into DCC, you would be well advised to use Peco or Atlas, Shinohara, Walthers/Shinohara, Micro Engineering, Kato, EZ-Track...any common HO turnout that is described as 'DCC friendly'. What this means is the frog, the 'crossing' in the middle, is isolated, usually unpowered or 'dead', and this prevents the metal tires of rolling stock from inadvertently bridging two rail at the frog that have opposite phase. DCC does not tolerate shorts even for several few microseconds. This is purposeful so that operators don't fry their expensive decoders, or their command systems, or their thin feeder wires serving the rails.

If you want the gee-whiz automation and don't wish to manually line your point rails on your turnouts, then you would want a switch machine: Circuitron's Tortoise, or any of the others currently available. They add to the cost of your system considerably since they're priced close to what a Peco Insulfrog turnout costs discounted, and few of us would say they are cheap.

I like lining my route manually, and I'm not alone. I just use a kabob bamboo skewer, purchased by the bagful at grocery stores everywhere, and flick the throwbars as I need to line my routes. Keeps me involved, less maintenance and expense.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*More on "DCC friendly" turnouts*



spacomp92653 said:


> I want to build a new On30 layout and use On30 flex track and maybe a turnout or 2. I also want the option of running DCC.
> 
> Re: turnouts I'd appreciate a basic explanation of what must be done to use turnouts with DCC, how to modify turnouts that don't work on DCC, simple enough that a dummy like me can understand.
> 
> ...


spacomp92653;

"What Don said-3?"

Don R is quite correct that any turnout can work with DCC. There is a type of turnout called an "isolated frog turnout" (Note: That's "isolated" frog, not "insulated" frog.) which is promoted as "DCC friendly", not only by manufacturers, but in some online videos as well. But again, as long as your wheels are properly gauged you should not have any serious problems running on DCC with the turnout of your choice.

Mesenteria mentioned one possible short circuit area, the frog. There is another, the narrow gap between the point and stock rails. The isolated frog prevents both these short circuit possibilities, neither of which is all that likely. This is the source of all the "DCC friendly" stuff. Rather than go back over all the technical explanations, I'll just attach one of my files that explains them in detail. 

I'm an N-scale modeler, so I don't know if there is "DCC friendly" turnout made specifically for On30. The Atlas, code 55, N-scale turnout comes with a isolated metal frog, which can be powered. Surely there must be something equivalent in HO-scale. Since you can use HO-scale turnouts, you should be able to find "isolated frog" a.k.a. "DCC friendly" turnouts in HO-scale. 

If you want a more On30 looking turnout, and they "turn out" (pun intended  ) to be unavailable commercially, you could build your own. The parts would be large ( I scratchbuild isolated, metal, powered, frog turnouts in N-scale so O-scale should be easy.) and it sounds like you aren't going to need dozens of them, so it's something to consider. The other attached file explains how I do this, and it's applicable to any scale.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment All AboutTurnouts.pdf


View attachment How I scratch build turnouts new(8).pdf


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Isolated frogs*



mesenteria said:


> Wow....what Don said...AGAIN!! We did get into the weeds...and beached.
> 
> On30 is designed to run on plain old HO tracks. That means any type of suitable HO turnout would do as well.
> 
> ...


mesenteria;

Maybe I'm misreading your post above. It sounds like a you're saying that there are rails of opposite polarity in an isolated frog? Re-reading it, I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly. An isolated frog is, as you probably know, electrically isolated from all the other rails of a turnout. Therefore an isolated frog, be it plastic or metal, powered or dead, would not have rails of opposite polarity within the frog. I build mine with metal frogs that are powered. The entire frog is one chunk of metal and is electrically switched to either one polarity, or the other, as a unit; by a micro-switch under the table. 

The short you describe between neighboring rails of opposite polarity can, of course, happen on a plastic, insulated, frog, when some of the plastic insulation has worn off, and a metal wheel can short the two exposed bits of rail. This is the origin of the well known "paint some clear nail polish on your Atlas turnout's frog" fix.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

What I mean is that if a frog is powered, and not insulated/isolated, and a typical code 110 HO tire bridges between the powered frog point and the opposite through route's closure rail, you could get a short. The turnout that has both closure rails live would have this problem. If a turnout is power-routing, as the Peco Streamline series is, then the opposite/open closure rail should be dead, and even a live frog should present no conflict with wide tires.

As you say, it can also happen at the juncture of the frog rails just outside the little plastic spacer, and that would be where a dab of clear nail polish comes in handy.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Isolated frogs*



mesenteria said:


> What I mean is that if a frog is powered, and not insulated/isolated, and a typical code 110 HO tire bridges between the powered frog point and the opposite through route's closure rail, you could get a short. The turnout that has both closure rails live would have this problem. If a turnout is power-routing, as the Peco Streamline series is, then the opposite/open closure rail should be dead, and even a live frog should present no conflict with wide tires.
> 
> As you say, it can also happen at the juncture of the frog rails just outside the little plastic spacer, and that would be where a dab of clear nail polish comes in handy.


 mesenteria;

Thanks for the reply and the clarification. I didn't understand what you meant in that post. Probably my old age. :laugh:
Yes, If the frog is powered, but NOT isolated, the short you describe would be possible. I was referring to a frog that IS isolated. When the frog and the parts of the closure rails right next to the frog, called "wing rails" are connected to the rest of the frog, but not to the rest of the closure rails, or any other rail, then the powered, and isolated, frog won't cause either the short you described, or the short between the point and stock rail. 

Thanks

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## spikedrivingblues (Dec 11, 2018)

I'm only a beginner but I would like to share an anecdote about my early experience building my layout.

I started with Atlas Snap Switches and had shorting problems. Traction fan mentioned the nail polish fix but I had no luck with that so I changed to Peco Electrofrog. These Peco turnouts can be modified to make shorts all but impossible but I use mine as they come. I find it your wheels sets are in gauge there are no problems.

Only problem is they are more expensive, especially if you want to add switch machines and stationary decoders!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Short circuits and quality*



spikedrivingblues said:


> I'm only a beginner but I would like to share an anecdote about my early experience building my layout.
> 
> I started with Atlas Snap Switches and had shorting problems. Traction fan mentioned the nail polish fix but I had no luck with that so I changed to Peco Electrofrog. These Peco turnouts can be modified to make shorts all but impossible but I use mine as they come. I find it your wheels sets are in gauge there are no problems.
> 
> Only problem is they are more expensive, especially if you want to add switch machines and stationary decoders!


spikedrivingblues:

Nice post! :thumbsup:

Your info is correct, but there is a bit more to it. The nail polish fix only works on one particular short, and even then only temporarily. The short occurs only on Atlas snap track, and some other plastic frog turnouts, when the plastic wears away, or is filed away over two rails in the frog. These rails are of opposite polarity, and when a metal wheel rolls over them, it can cause the short. The nail polish is just a substitute for the plastic that once insulated these rails from passing wheels. Sometimes, in a misguided attempt to cure a rough run through the frog, or derailment issue, people try filing the frog point, or the entire frog, down. This is a very bad practice since, first it doesn't properly fix the original problem(s), and second, it tends to create an additional one, the aforementioned short circuit. Filling in the frog to raise the floor, and adding side shims to the guard rail and frog flangeways are the better fix for the rough run, and derailment issues. The attached file, "Improving Atlas turnouts explains this fix in detail.

What you did, gauging your wheels correctly, is a better solution than frog filing, or nail polish. It is an excellent thing to do on any model railroad. It sounds like you had a different short circuit anyway, since the nail polish idea didn't help. 

As for Peco turnouts, yes, they are more expensive, and yes, they don't come with a switch machine attached. In fact the Atlas snap switch turnout is one of the very few that do come with a switch machine attached. Even Atlas's own "custom Line" turnouts do not come with a switch machine. You have to buy it separately. However, in my opinion, the Atlas switch machine is too weak to do a reliable job of throwing the points, and is really no bargain at all.
Peco does make a much better switch machine which snaps right onto the bottom of a Peco turnout. Peco is also a much better quality turnout than an Atlas snap switch, that's why it's more expensive.

I agree with you about the high cost of adding stationary decoders to operate turnouts. For those who want to operate turnouts with their DCC system, they will have to spend more to buy the decoders. That's one reason why so many modelers chose to operate their turnouts by other, less expensive, means.

Again, a good post from a new modeler! Keep up the good work.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment All AboutTurnouts.pdf


View attachment Improving Atlas turnouts pdf version.pdf


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