# Lionel 1387 Milwaukee Road Special-Stops when whistle blows



## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Picked up a Lionel 1387 set (Milwaukee Road Steam Passenger). Hooked everything up and seems to run ok. Seems slow (especially if the track is not perfectly flat), but I don't have no idea how fast it should be. Smokes, has sound, light in cars work. When I hit the whistle control (lionel 8251-50), the light on the train dims and the train stops, but the whistle blows. As soon as the button is released, the engine starts running and everything runs again. It has the original O-4150-50 transformer and original CTC lock on.
Thoughts?

Also--what is the lever on top of the engine? What's the function?

Should I consider a more powerful transformer with a whistle control built onto it?
1. Does that make sense?
2. Does one exist?
3. Suggestions


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## infernisdiem (Nov 12, 2011)

I would probably look at the e-unit being the issue, if I am not mistaken the more modern trains run off from AC current, and to activate the whistle the transformer shoots a DC current through the track, the E-unit connection to the motor basically ignores the DC pulse, but the whistle picks it up and uses it. Hopefully this helps... I am still trying to figure out why my Lionel transformer when you hit the whistle button does nothing, but when you hit the bell button, the whistle blows lol


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

When was the last time you did a good clean and lube on the loco? If it's been a while, I'd start there. Often slow running means maintenance is due. Use 5w-20/30 motor oil, which ever you have on hand. Check for any old dried out grease and thoroughly clean it if found. Basically infern is partially correct. Lionel trains run on A/C and whistle control (lionel 8251-50) changes the A/C to a D/C voltage. Can't recall if that set used a motor whistle or an electronic one. If it's a motor type, it's very likely drawing too much current, and will need a good clean and lube also.

Unless you're running larger than say 30" x 50" (O-31 curves and 2 straights per side) the 4150 (50 amps) SHOULD be adequate. I'd use at least 18 gauge (16 preferably) wire from transformer to lock-on to ensure enough current flow.

These should get you a good baseline to work from.

Carl


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

Check the e unit contact and motor brush.
if the whistle take all the voltage is just because has less resistance.
lubricate it well as Carl said using motor oil, never use 3 on 1 oil.
Andre.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Do you have a better number for the set? It should show up on the LIonel site. A picture of the engine with a cab number would be a start. It sounds like MPC era.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

T-Man. searching 6-1387 shows up on e-bay as what he says he has, but not in the catalog. It's an MPC era SoS tendered set made in 1973, http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Catalog2/61387.html the Lionel site don't show it.

Carl


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

OK, now got the Lionel Supplements and down load 1-9 then look up the engine 8305. (section 3-15,page 124 in adobe).

Probably a dc motor and electronic e unit.

It's ac with a two postion reverse.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Wow...thanks everyone for the responses. The variety of knowledge is impressive to say the least. Now...me taking the thing apart..Interesting and scarey having never done it. I'll review all this and flip a coin. Perhaps I should leave the heavy lifting to more qualified, hobby shop or related repair shop? Still, I hate to give up on a good challenge!


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## jwse30 (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm not too familiar with that particular set, but I do have two similar sets that use the same engine (mine just have the sound, no whistle though). 

Before you do anything else, I would open the tender and make sure the circuit board is not touching the metal frame. Lionel used foam double sided tape to hold the circuit board in place and the foam on a lot of these has degraded over time, allowing the board to short out. Usually when the foam wears out enough, the board stops working; perhaps yours is getting there, and it's causing a short in the whistle circuit?

Anyhow a new piece of double sided tape ought to be easy enough to install; the hardest part will be going to a store and finding some. 

Once you're sure that the circuit board is not shorting onto the metal frame of the tender, I would remove the cars and see if the problem still occurs. Also, the whistle controller may decrease the track voltage a volt or two while activated, so if you are running the train very slow, it might be enough to make it stall. Try running it faster (hold onto it with your hand if you need to) and see if that helps. 

Cleaning and lubing the engine can't hurt either. It's a pretty easy engine to take apart and reassemble. The hardest part is making sure none of the wiring going to the smoke unit and lamp gets pinched during reassembly. 

Hope this helps,

J White


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

*Took a chance*

So..I compiled everyone's ideas on this thread and made a list of things to do.
Went to hobby store and purchased the Lionel maint. kit. Checked YouTube for anything that might help. Greased up the gears, lubed all the points, cleaned the wheels, cleaned the contacts with contact cleaner from Radio Shack and replaced the hook up wires with 14ga. 
IT RUNS LIKE GREASED LIGHTENING!

Vast, vast improvement. The horn is still drawing power; the lights dim and the trains slows a bit, but is much better.

As for the e-unit. Not sure I'm ready to take taking the train apart to get it. Checked the schematic someone mentioned. I would bet if I were brave enough to get the body off, I could clean the brushes and contacts and the problems might be solved. I figured taking the top screw out would release the casing. Only the back of seemed to have any give. What else needs to be taken apart to get the case off the engine?


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

ilikedis said:


> So..I compiled everyone's ideas on this thread and made a list of things to do.
> Went to hobby store and purchased the *Lionel maint*. kit. Checked YouTube for anything that might help. *Greased up the gears*, lubed all the points, cleaned the wheels, cleaned the contacts with contact cleaner from Radio Shack and replaced the hook up wires with 14ga.
> IT RUNS LIKE GREASED LIGHTENING!
> 
> ...


I see two things wrong, and please take no offense here, the word grease. Grease does harden over time and does more harm than good. The oil in the Lionel Kit same deal, turns to gummy, sticky mess. About 99% of us here, including me, swear by 5w-20/30 motor oil in a needle dispenser or syringe for all lube needs. A drop on axles, bearings, gears basically anything needing lube. Why? It will not dry up. The contact cleaner is a good choice for much of the cleaning. 

Getting the body off is really fairly simple, usually remove the side rods (a screw or 2 on each side) one screw on top and the front truck carrier then the steamchest. Here's and exploded view if you need it. http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/18008Complete.pdf


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Yikes...I figured the kit was a good idea. I will say, it it did an amazing job on the track. Was very dirty. Is there anyway to undo/cleanup what I already did with the grease and oil? Will definitely take the 5w-20/30 oil recommendation!

Now..if I'm able to get the case off, is there anything significant to know about cleaning the e unit contacts? Excuse my newbyness...the e unit is the reversing unit?

I think I saw something on YouTube about rebuilding the e unit. I'll do another look/see if there's a video on cleaning it.

Thanks for the diagram. It'll be handy.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

"Over time", is 20 years or more for a bearing grease. A lithium grease even more so there is plenty of time to change.

Just as long as you are happy with how it runs.

Post 20 is the video link and this is the thread.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You shouldn't use grease on the loco. It will dry out and turn to cement in a few years. Use 5W-20/30 motor oil. It never dries out. I wouldn't worry about taking it apart to clean the brushes. Some of the guys recommend it, but if the loco is running fine, this isn't really necessary. You can leave the grease in place and just oil it up when it dries out. It will soften up and turn to grease when you oil it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As far as the whistle drawing power, the old PW whistles with the open-frame AC motors did draw quite a bit of power. That's why PW transformers boost the voltage a few volts when you activate the whistle. Of course, you should lubricate the whistle motor bearings and check the brushes and commutator if it's still drawing excessive power.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

This set has speaker in the tender for sound.

Just curious..would a more powerful transformer work with this train?

The 50 watt that came with the set powers it ok, it just dims and slows down when the whistle controller is pushed.

I see there are Lionel 60 and 80 watt transformers with built in whistle control. Would the extra wattage help? I'm assuming the size the track will also be expanded at some point.

What advantages are there to newer more powerful transformers and would they be compatable with this set?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think I'd go for a more powerful transformer. I wouldn't stop at 60 or 80 watts, I'd suggest you look for a Lionel KW, it's a 190 watt unit with dual controls.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

It's an old train...not a Falcon HTV-2


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

How big a layout do you have in mind? Personally, a really good and lower priced option would be either a 1033 or a 1044 (90 watts) both have whistle and controls and multiple taps to add accessories. One that I personally have is the LW 125 watt also has whistle, direction and extra taps. The above are all postwar units and can be had reasonable, just be sure to inspect/replace the power cord. Typical prices on e-bay start around 15-20 bucks. If you go more more modern good choices are the CW 80 watts or MTH Z-1000. All of those can easily handle a 4x8 layout. I'd run a second lock-on to the opposite side, making sure to match wire connections on each one. Also, make sure you have them wired correctly, the ground is the outer rail. Sometimes if wired reversed they don't function properly.

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you add accessories, 90 watts is marginal, which is why I suggest something like the KW. It's unlikely you'll run out of power with that one, and they can be had for around $40 on eBay if you are patient. I've bought a few of them, typically they need a new power cord, sometimes new rollers, and many times the knobs are broken. All of these things end up costing me about an hour's time and around $10 total.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Accessories...didn't think that far ahead. All I know is I'm grateful to all of you for helping get the thing going in the first place. I'll check out the transformers you mentioned. 

As for the expanding the track???? Don't know at this time. Do know it won't be some mega-setup, but likely a a few feet longer than it is now.

Everyone--thanks again for you help and suggestions.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Well,,,,I'm still looking for a transformer. Been watching the MTH-Z1000's, Lionel ZW's/KW's/LW's and not sure what direction to go. At this time don't have accessories. Bought some extra track for a bigger layout. I've read of problem with the older Lionel's--some part that often needs to be replaced. I don't know where to concentrate. Do you guys have a preference for high power with horn trigger?

Another question...the 8305 is now running like a top. Cleaned all the old grease out and lubed with 5-30. Bought some MegaSteam fluid. Works ok, but it not generating thick plumes. Is that to be expected with this engine? Is there some maintainence I or modification I can do on the smoke unit?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The engine will smoke better if it is pulling 8-10 cars. The transformer voltage is higher when there is a load on the engine and thus the smoker works better. Of course, the smoker works better if there is no lube on anything, but that is not a good way to make the smoker work better.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Older Lionel transformers are very reliable, but like anything they need maintenance. Typically, the things that require replacement with an older transformer like the ZW or KW are the power cord and the carbon rollers. Less often you may have to replace the rectifier disks, I normally use silicon diode replacements for those.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Sounds like you like the Lionel transformers better?

What about lockons? Lionel standard, illumindated
or
MTH

I'm leary of buying a used transformer off Ebay. Any suggestions on where else to purchase? Also, prices seem all over the place for either the Lionels or MTH.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

ilikedis said:


> Sounds like you like the Lionel transformers better?
> 
> What about lockons? Lionel standard, illumindated
> or
> ...


I've only ever used Lionel stuff so I can't speak for MTH. As a side note, if you can solder reasonably well, you can solder the wires directly to the track eliminating lockon's entirely. Two power drops on a 4x8 should be plenty spaced 1/2 way apart, adding additional as the size expands.

Buying a transformer off e-bay look at the sellers rating, 98-100% satisfaction is usually reliable. I avoid those who do not allow returns (my personal choice) in case of issues. Be prepared to replace power cords on any you buy, unless after receiving it was obviously done. 

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Train shows or forum purchases are probably a more reliable place. OTOH, I've bought a bunch of transformers on eBay, and for the most part, I've gotten a good deal. I normally only bid on stuff that's pretty inexpensive and may need some minor internal repair, that keeps the bidding low. Replacing rollers and power cords is pretty simple, and I end up with a bunch of nice working transformers. I've only seen one Lionel PW transformer over the years that actually had a bad coil, and that was because someone let the carbon rollers wear down to the nubs and the arm scored the core.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

I've been watching KW's and ZW's, but really don't know what a "good" price on those should be. KW's in good shape seem to in the $80-120 range. Is that good or pricey?

The ZW's seem to be in the $150-200+ range. 

I'm leaning toward the KW, but have no idea the price range and associated condition I should be expecting.

Any comments?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if you want a pristine example of those transformers with everything fixed and all shined up, you'll probably pay $75-100 for a KW and closer to $200 for the ZW. If you're willing to work on them, I've bought KW's for $35 and ZW's for $75-80. I look for ones with everything mechanically intact and no major broken parts. KW's frequently have the little knobs broken/missing, but those are about $5/pair, so I can live with that. As far as the power cord, many of them require replacement, but the cord is only a couple of bucks. The carbon rollers and rivets are about $5 for a set of four each, again not a prohibitive cost.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have 4 KWs and paid less than $50 for each of them. They all needed some work like rollers and/or power cords and diodes to replace the copper oxide rectifiers. IMHO, the KWs are the best bang for the buck.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

Thanks for the replys. Guess I'll have to wait to see what pops up and go from there.


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## ilikedis (Jun 25, 2012)

More questions. Bought a bunch of old track and have been cleaning it up. It's weathered, but I'm getting the top rails clean and smooth. Have to say, it's really been a labor of love ;-) Caught some other posts here on cleaning tracks and am doing well so far.

Is there a special tool needed to reform the ends/crimp?

I saw one on Ebay, but am wondering if there's something I might already have to do the job....or pick up a hardware store.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, Bruce (servoguy) is going to give you his method, and it works.  I have the track pliers and they're handy to have, makes it easy to get the track the right shape if it's a bit mangled on the ends.

I recommend if you have any rust/corrosion in the track ends that you clean that out. I use a very small stainless steel rotary brush in a drill to clean mine.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

To make a good connection between track sections, you need to bend the rails slightly so the pins exert pressure on the inside of the adjoining track section. With the pins facing away from you, bend the outer rail to the left and the center rail to the right. Grab the rail where the pin is installed and bend the rail, not the pin. Make sure you grab the rail where the pin is so you don't crush the rail. Bend the rail so the end of the pin move about half the diameter of the pin. This works much better than Lionel's method, and you only have to do it once. You can disconnect the track sections and reconnect them without any further bending of the rails. This approach also puts pressure on the pin where it is installed. Clean the pins and as John suggests, get a small wire brush from McMaster Carr to clean out the inside of the rails.


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