# DCC track wiring



## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Hi, my name is Mike and I'm new to DCC. I have a concerns about how to isolate my track sections based on my layout. I have an outer oval and an inner oval, with a turnout joining the outer to the inner and a second turnout inner back to outer. Simple to far. These are Micro-Trains manual turnouts. 

Question #1 Where do I need to isolate to prevent shorts and smoke? Is there somewhere online that shows what to do to the turnouts? I've looked at the following page but I'm not sure which configuration I need to go with? 
http://www.ve3ho.ca/Z-scale/american page 3.html

Question #2 For blocking track does MTL have plastic rail joiners or is my only choice to go with cutting the rails with a saw?

Question #3 Totally unrelated, I have, in my pile of track, a short piece of MTL track with bed that has a slide out piece that slides out one tie from under the rail. What is this for, I can't find it on the MTL site.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

With DCC your Z scale wiring should normally be two wires the
track, maybe attached in a couple of places, depending on the
size and complexity of your layout.

You describe what is essentially a double crossover connecting
the two ovals. Unless you have a reverse loop that makes possible
turning a loco around to run the opposite way on the same
track, there is no reason to use insulated
joiners for this connection. All DCC track is live at all times
and your DCC locomotives, will be controlled individually by
your controller.

Observe 'phasing' (polarity) so that
both ovals are fed current from a buss connected to the output
of the DCC controller. Think outside rail and inside rail to keep
your phasing correct. Or draw you layout using black for one
rail and red for the other. That might help you stay good.

Don


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Depending how your turnouts are placed in relation to each other you may need insulated joiners, particularly if you have two facing each other and power is being applied the the 'heel', or beyond, of both. We really need a diagram of your track to confirm. Don't worry if you do get a short, there'll be no smoke, only your command controller turning itself off and on again until you sort it!


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks guys. My worry is when I read about DCC ready turnouts and see notes on how to jumper and cut your turnouts.... I do have a turnout on my inner oval which goes to a siding, and when I flip that the outer oval train shorts. 

yesterday I spent a while grinding down the chassis of a MTL F7 to wire a digitrax DX123... Decoder...
WELL, the grinding went well, but one must keep tuned into which end is the front and which end of the chassis is back... okay, grind again.... LOL.

Today was wire the new DCC engine... most of the effort went well, until I struggled to get it back together... test test and test... and once put together... doesn't work... take apart, re-assemble... test test... doesn't work... at one point I got the unit running for the very first time around... a little hurky gurky as it stumbled across some of the turnouts... and some of the wires were better suited to a Frankenstein movie... Oh and it seems someone didn't pay attention not only to front and back but right and left.... turns out Command Station thinks forwards is backwards and Backwards is forwards... Okay, time to finalize the wires, loosen one screw and now nothing works... 

Time for a stiff drink, and tomorrow is another day. Once I have a DCC engine running I will start looking at the turnout issues. That is if I ever get both sets of brushes ever to contact just right at the same time.

Did I mention that this was my first attempt at doing my first decoder on my first Z engine on my first Z train? Maybe I should have tried something easier...?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mike

I have long yelled about the way manufacturers use the tern
DCC in any way connected with turnouts. It's all nonsense. A turnout
works just as well on a DC or a DCC system.

What they actually are referring to is whether the frog is 
insulated or ELECTROFROG as Peco calls them. Power
frogs are sometimes needed for locos with short truck
spans. But electrofrogs also require that both frog rails
be insulated from the connecting rails else there will be a
short.

I prefer the Insulated frogs since you don't need to worry
about the shorts, but those also are often power routing and
turn off the frog rail power of a track when the turnout is
set against it. You might have to add a drop to the connected
frog rail.

If your loco is going backward when your controller is set
forward, you have wired the motor backward. You can
change the wires, or you can consult your DCC controller
manual to get the procedure to reverse the FWD/REV
function. 

When you get the loco running good be sure to change
it's address of the default 03 to any other number so
that when you start to work on a second loco you won't be
affecting the first. All new DCC locos and all new DCC
decoders arrive set to address #3.

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks Don. I agree the frog is the problem and I just have to do some wiring tests to better understand how they work.

Today's ordeal continued in trying to get my MTL F7 back together, but I've come to the conclusion that the whiskers on either side of the truck tree need to be about a 1/4" longer so they don't snag when being put together. Once again, I test, it works, I test, it works, and I test it one more time... Yes it works. Okay now put it on the track... Nada. So after an hour of disassemble, reassemble cycles, I drop one of the chassis screws. It is now where all the other important things in my life have gone... somewhere where I can't find around the workbench. I have towels everywhere to protect and catch things, but of course it must have bounced elsewhere... I guess tomorrow maybe I'll scavenge an old pair of glasses and see if I can use the screws from there.... or I'll go to the store. Since we don't have a Z Store within 10,000 miles, I may have to find something equally tiny to take apart for parts.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You must have a carpeted floor as I do. I find it is as bouncy as 
a trampoline for small parts. When I eventually do find a tiny dropped part
it is farther away than you can imagine.

If the part had iron content you might try sweeping with
a good magnet.

And as you thought, glasses; optometrists may have a variety
of small screws, one of which may fit. Or a watchmaker/
jeweler. Take the part along to try

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Today was a busy day, but before everyone came home from work I found a few minutes to tinker downstairs. I pulled out a jar of eyeglass screws and found one that sort-of/ kind-of/almost fit... tested and then tested again... put it on the track and crap, if the thing didn't start to run... it still has the backward thing/problem, but I'll find the NCE screen for that.... so I let it run around the track, stopped it, started it... run around a few for times... everything is awesome... speed is a bit slow, but I don't have any lube in the gears so that may be why... then while I waited for the son in law to get home, I started to play with momentum settings and stop start... run stop start... run... stop.... now it doesn't go again... time to test... crap... okay, time to take the F7 apart again... This thing will have been in the shop more times than my old 82 Caprice... 

I kind of have been worried about this new old motor. Right now my soldering of the decoder onto it... has turned this thing into a bristle brush for tunnels... if I ever get the cab back on, it'll look like Carrot Top with a beanie and wires sticking out of everywhere... Boy this model railroading is fun stuff.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Yes, you can change the direction on your PoweCab. Don't be tempted to put oil on the gears, causes more problems than you think it'll solve.


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Well, my time for testing is over. The last time I had the engine on the track, y son-in-law figured he could help by changing settings on my command station... things like voltage and a bunch of other CV's... the whole time I was at the other end of the room trying to learn how to reset the thing.... now my F7 with the DZ123 - hardwired - now doesn't do much.. when I delete settings, the engine moves a 1/4"... but that's all - no light, no nuthin.... when I put a battery on the black and red leads... nuthin... when I put battery to the motor directly, it runs everything... the light directly, it lites... so I think my decoder is pooched. I put in an order for two more last night. I am bound and bent on getting my Bristle Brush Express running one way or another.

So, I will ask again, what is that short piece of track with the slide out railway tie for?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Often a decoder can be brought back to life by resetting
to address #3, and factory defaults. Is that what you did?

If the decoder is shot and it's a Digitrax they will replace it free
even tho you may have damaged it. You must go to their
website digitrax.com. Click on Warranty and repair. Follow
instructions.

But first, make sure the decoder is getting power from the
track on it's input. Set meter to AC volts. You should see
14 to 18 v ac. If not, there's power pickup problem from
the wheels.

Do we have a pic of the track with the slide out tie you ask about?

Don

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Two steps forward, and one step back...

So my son-in-law found my missing screw for the chassis of my F7 laying in the middle of the basement floor... oh to have eyesight like that again.... I've been reading the command manual and with Don's suggestion, I'm about to see if I can reset my decoder for the F7 one more time. I may just connect the power leads for it to the track directly and take the pickups on the truck wheels out of the circuit. 

So today is rack two batches of wine that I have going, play a round of golf with the wife and then check on my F7 decoder. It would be nice to see it run again.

The short piece of track mystery is solved. My supplier sent me a note telling me he'd sent a short piece of Rohukan track so I could see the difference in tie spacing... I like the MTL better, but oh doesn't Rohukan have such a better selection of track to choose from? I may consider Fast Tracks as I move on... my big plan is to make 5 or 6 module layouts that fit into a coffee table that I can swap out to suit the wife décor for the season. And when the grandkids come over, to put all the modules together on the dining table and run the whole thing together. 

At the moment we spend the winters down south and the summers back here in Canada living in our bus. We sold the house so for the time being we are what I call homeless. So my train setup this winter will be very interesting in the RV. Most of my time will be planning the layout modules. I may need a few extra modules to cover the interesting areas I'd like to try like container docks and mining operations with lots of accessory decoders to animate things. We will see how far the wife lets me go with this.

Yesterday I got an email telling me my package is on it way by post... question is what package? I've been ordering from a number of different places since here in Canada no one supplier carries everything for Z scale. Maybe its the decoders for my Geep... So I guess I sit and wait for the mail man to come like the old fart I am. This is exciting.


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

The world is all better again. Don you were right, I was able to CPR - computer program redo the decoder... though it took a couple of tries. The little engine that could, now can. 

The mail came today, it wasn't my decoders as I had hoped... I think I scared the mailman opening the door so quickly. It was a freebee glucose monitor. Crap... Seems my decoders haven't left the depot yet... but I still have one engine now that runs... I switched the CV bit for direction around so forwards is now reverse etc... but the light still goes on when the engine is going the wrong direction. So I guess I may still have to reverse and resolder the engine contacts. Then the task will be to figure out how to get all those wires into the tiny little Z cab as well as learn more about the CV's and other setting on my NCE Command Station. I'm making Progress though, the wife hasn't noticed any of my problems. She just sits beside me here figuring out where in Texas we are going to spend this coming winter... I hope there is a train store nearby where ever it is.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I don't have the luxury of setting individual CVs. My Bachmann EZ
controller has only a few 'program' capabilities. Even so, when
I wired my motor backward, and corrected the motor direction per
the manual, the head and rear lights followed. There may be
another CV that does that.

But, the main thing is that it goes. Get off the track the
trains coming down the line.

You might check the Walther's on line store for a listing
of Texas Hobby Shops.

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Everything is back together... wires are tucked, cab is on with one slight bulge on the side where a solder joint is a bit excessive... and my headlight solder joint let go. I am content at the moment to just drive it around and get used to the command setup. But that now brings me back to the turnouts which I would like to see work a bit more consistently. Once a module is under glass in the coffee table, it could be a pain to re-rail the cars that fall off. So now it's time to go back and read many of the other posts on the forum looking for hints on getting the trucks to roll smoothly through the different configurations of the turnouts and to get the engines to make it through without needing a tiny Z scale push. Thanks Don for your help.... now on to phase 2. 
Phase One was getting it running... now Phase Two is learning how to run it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Do you have issue with the turnouts?

Do loco and/or cars derail if turnout is
set right for them?

Are they remote control? What brand?
Twin coil or Tortoise motors?

If guaranteeing no derails for improperly set
turnouts is desired, we can probably plan
a scheme to avoid such.

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Hi Don, the turnouts are MTL, new out of the package. They are all manual throws at the moment. (I've tried to type this up so it makes some sort of sense but I don't know if that's what I've written below...)

I have an inner and outer oval, connected by two turnouts at one end back to back and then at the other end another two turnouts back to back.
When the engine runs straight through on the outer oval, the engine and cars seem to run fine now. (They used to bump and stall and need a push, but after letting the set run circles for a while, they now pass through pretty much okay). If I have the engine going too slow (read craw pulling 10 or more cars) it will usually still stalls part way through one particular throw. 

Then when I throw the switches (and LOL, yes they are set correctly - I talk to myself to make sure it did it right - the wife knew what she was getting married to...) and have the engine pull off the main line onto the inner oval for short bit and then back on the main line going through the second set of turnouts, the engine needs some speed or else it bumps and stalls. But, if I'm pulling cars, will frequently derail the cars and the engine tips over as it gets half way through the first pair of turnouts. The speed is usually just enough to keep rolling, nothing excessive. The engine is the MTL F7 that I just got going (big smiley face) with metal wheels and the train cars are all plastic wheels. 

So, question is - do I need to take some of the new 'edge' off of the frogs or is there something else? 

The joiners and track is flush to feel and looking at them close... 

And I'm guessing that when the engine stalls, if there was an electrical problem, it would be at the front of the front set of trucks?


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Even if the frogs are 'dead' you should get them tracking through without stalling if all wheels are picking up current. If you e had the loco apart this is the most likely cause. I know it's an expensive way to check but if you could run a converted DCC loco over your track it could give you a pointer. I haven't had any experience of MTL turnouts but I thought you might get some suggestions from people who have.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It's gotta be an extra pain with that micro Z scale track.

Here's the way to get the exact point where trouble happens
on those turnouts.

Get down and close with extra light (flashlight?) and run the
loco as slow as it will run. Keep your eyes on the wheels.
When you see a wheel lift; STOP. Something right there is
wrong. It's usually a vertical misalignment. At that scale
the tiniest fraction can be trouble.

As to the electrical problem. Let's make sure all wheels
are picking up power. Set your multimeter to ohms. Put
a probe on the front wheel of the front truck. Then probe each
wheel on that side. If you get no reading on any, that wheel
is not feeding juice. Do the same on the other side. There
may be lint or other foreign matter on the wipers or wheels.

If the wheels pass the test, set the meter to AC volts. Power
the track with the DCC controller. Put one
probe on the stationary rail. The other probe lightly touch the
points and the other sections of that rail. The points may not
be contacting stationary rails thus no power. Does the frog
have power? Or is it plastic?

One other thought. I've never held a Z scale loco. Does it
seem heavy enough to keep the wheels on the track? HO
FTs are quite heavy, Z should be proportionally so.

It's gotta be frustrating to have these problems with brand
new gear.

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

I have to say, Z scale is special... I could do it all in HO or N, but the concept in my mind is to make it so tiny and busy that even my grandkids will be in awe with how real it will look. I am looking for a challenge and that's what I'm getting... and it is fun I have to admit. Cutting open a new and perfectly good engine and soldering new bits into it... I must be crazy, but with my IT background - I know it can be done, and somehow I will do it. 

Anyway, enough of this nonsense from me... I wasn't happy that my headlight didn't work on my F7, so I took the cab off the engine and then nothing worked... FRUSTRATING.... after two Jack and Diet cokes and a double Caesar, I reset the decoder a couple of times... strange how just once doesn't work for me.... and now the train runs again... But the other end of this is that our RV is out of the shop and ready for us to move back into, so this morning I broke down my setup in the son-in-laws basement and my wife and I are now back in the bus. It now may be a few days before I get around to setting up again, but I will get back to learning the little bits of the little set. I don't think my wife has figured it out yet but I'm going to commandeer the front dash of the RV, it'll hold my 2x4 sheet of foam just nice over the steering wheel.... at least until we head out back onto the highway in the fall. Then I don't know what will happen... gosh this Z scale is fun....


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Great news, I'm sure you're happy to have it all running again. What's a RV Mike? Like a Winnebago? I'm now getting really intrigued as what your 4 x 2 actually looks like, so please can we have some pics?


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Actually it is a Winnebago. A 39' gas, 8.1 liter (almost 500 cubic inch), Alison transmission, workhorse frame with 3 slide outs... it has about 360 sq feet of living space when we're parked and the slides are extended. Wife is getting better, she used to speed around 75mph, but yesterday she kept it a decent 7mph over the limit as I followed her home from the shop. (Home... it's a campsite just outside of Ottawa, on a little lake with power, water and sewer). Last winter while in Palm Springs we had $10k worth of work done on the suspension... now instead of weaving down the road like a drunk sailor in a light breeze, the tractor trailers now get pushed as we drive by. 

I was going to rebuild our dining table in the bus to be a shadow box type of thing with the train set inside it, but the dream some day is to be living again is a bricks and mortar home with a coffee table setup... for the next while it's all just planning and more planning. Developing ways to make animation work, signals work, make my own electrical/magnetic decouplers and all fit into the space... I say dream... LOL, currently I guess we live the dream... summers near the kids and winters down south... sand and sun... the next dream is a real home after this... maybe an in-law suite with the kids or iving in an old farts condo... but that is still a few years down the road.
Yesterday, I tried to post a pic but it looks like it needs to be first on a website...








We will see if this works.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

After eleven posts you should be able to put up some pics but you can always load them to a photo sharing site and link it.

Have you visited Wally World yet!


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Wally World... LOL.... we did take a light rail train (Sprinter) from our campsite near Vista California to Oceanside... Then we caught the Coaster from Oceanside to San Diego... 
This was such a neat train ride, following the ocean shore and then cutting inland every so often... seeing the industries and the private homes... I can't explain how awesome it was... Riding a train is fun, but the things we saw, so different from what we would have seen from the highway. I was so very impressed. Sorry but Wally World, was not on the route last winter. 
And Don, my 2x4 layout is a simple inner outer dogbone at the moment... but my problem is trying to come up with 4 or 5 (or 6) layouts that can interlock with a track running around the outside edge... and then each individual layout a whole world by its self... I'd hate to just have each layout with the same dogbone plan.... sooooo boring... but then I'd have no problem figuring out the wiring. Of all my skills and abilities, planning the layouts is the most difficult... get track to fit the 2x4 constraint... put a city scape in the layout somehow... or put a winter alpine scene... perhaps I could get a fall logging or mining function represented... I'd like to do a dock with containers... but how to come up a track layout that makes sense and fits each one of these. Don at the moment I only have a 2x4 piece of pink foam board and the track on it... and I'm trying to figure out where I would put tunnels, how to provide access inside them. I want to provide little side windows in the coffee table so that the kids could see what a train looks like going through a tunnel... maybe with workers on the side... and then the reality of when the modules are linked together, how would I get access... perhaps I should just dial the whole idea down. But I do have many miles of thinking ahead over the next few years to work out many of these problems.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

My first thought as to access to your layout would be to use
a plexiglass top rather than glass. You could easily, then, install
an attractive handle to lift it. For access to the tunnel affix
a sturdy 'tree' or 'power pole' that would act as a handle to lift it.

I don't have any detailed layout ideas for you but maybe you
could think of where one track crosses another at grade.
They can make a layout more interesting
but they also mean more curves. Perhaps one oval could
be more like a dog bone while the other becomes a form
of figure 8. If the two are connected draw out the layout using
Red and black for the rails to make sure you don't create a
reverse loop. If you did you would need a reverse loop
controller.

Since you are using foam as a base you could 'dig' a river and
run the track across a bridge.

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Well, it's been a busy few weeks and sad but my train'ing has taken a back seat while we got ourselves organized in the trailer park. But now I'm back at it, setting up to see if the layout I want to try first will work... and I think it will. I've taken the HO 4x8 layout of the Gorre & Daphetid and I think it'll fit on my 2x4 piece of foam. 

I need a few other pieces to make it fit just right and I need to trim some of the beds at the turnouts. I will add a turnout in the top right corner to make the layout modular and connectable to the next layout. 

Now that I see it for real I can now work on how I will handle the slopes of the hill sides and how I add buildings etc.. But first now for the figuring out the wiring, where I will put the insulated gaps... then I can get the DCC part of it working. 

Still not sure which theme to go with until I figure out the hills. I want to do an winter alpine setup at some point but this layout might work with a logging or mining as well.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mike

I traced and traced but can see only what I take will be a turntable
where you would want insulated gaps. All the rest of the layout
is some form of oval. Other than the turntable, there is no
trackage where you can turn a loco around unless these old
eyes missed something.

So, you would want to have a buss to various parts of the
layout for even current distribution. The buss would be
fed by the output of your DCC controller.

The turntable would need either a reverse loop controller or
DPDT switches to make it work without shorting, unless it
comes equipped with a polarity reversing device.

Don


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## mike_richling (Jun 8, 2015)

Thanks Don. That helps. I don't want to run the train until I have proper track supports for the elevated sections so I wouldn't know if worked for a while yet and this helps with planning the wiring. Plus I need to rough plan the other modules that will join this one before I finalize it.


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