# Layout critique



## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

Hi All, I am submitting my proposed layout which is 00gauge Hornby Setrack 100 and will be DCC controlled by a Hornby Elite unit. I would appreciate any and all comments/ recommendations as well as the required wiring for the reverse loop component. The layout is designed using AnyRail software and the background grid is 500x500mm. Ignore all the small pieces of track as these will be catered for by using Hornby R8090 flex track to reduce the number of track connections. The idea is to run a max of 3x trains simultaneously with a possible 4th in the shunting yard area. Looking forward to dramatic improvements.
Thanks
ChrisR


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

If it was me,
The main feeds goes to two DPDT switches
Most of the layout is on switch 1
The reverse loop/section is on switch 2


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

Dennis461 said:


> If it was me,
> The main feeds goes to two DPDT switches
> Most of the layout is on switch 1
> The reverse loop/section is on switch 2
> View attachment 575527





Dennis461 said:


> If it was me,
> The main feeds goes to two DPDT switches
> Most of the layout is on switch 1
> The reverse loop/section is on switch 2
> View attachment 575527


Hi Dennis thanks for the response and suggestion. As I am no electrician what is a DPTD switch?


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

While you will have the opportunity for switching and some turntable action, I think a roundy-round like that it going to become boring in a short time. 

Mine is also a roundy-round, but it's on three levels and trains disappear into mountains and appear to change direction with the folded figure-8. The variety keeps it interesting especially traveling through the scenery.


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

ChrisR said:


> Hi Dennis thanks for the response and suggestion. As I am no electrician what is a DPTD switch?


Sorry DPDT


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It is a Double-Pole, Double Throw switch. Here is an electrical and physical diagram of what one looks like:


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

You have two reverse loops, one an actual loop and the other the turntable. Since you are using DCC I suggest an automatic reverser, one for the loop, one for the turntable. I would not use DTDP switches, the cost will be more, but you will never 'forget' to through the switch!


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

MichaelE said:


> While you will have the opportunity for switching and some turntable action, I think a roundy-round like that it going to become boring in a short time.
> 
> Mine is also a roundy-round, but it's on three levels and trains disappear into mountains and appear to change direction with the folded figure-8. The variety keeps it interesting especially traveling through the scenery.


Hi MichaelE thank you for your observations and suggestions. I am prepared to go to another level but with a 2.5% maximum gradient I didnt think I had enough distance to get up to another level and return down again to join the rest of the layout. I am not adverse to changing the whole layout but could you give me an idea of a folded figure 8?


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

timlange3 said:


> You have two reverse loops, one an actual loop and the other the turntable. Since you are using DCC I suggest an automatic reverser, one for the loop, one for the turntable. I would not use DTDP switches, the cost will be more, but you will never 'forget' to through the switch!


Hi timlange3 nice to meet you. I had also read some adverse comments about switching and I must say that despite the additional cost an automatic process has a lot of appeal although with the exchange rate and the South African Rand I have to watch the pennies. Maybe the simplest way is to find another way to reverse the direction of trains.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)




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## CHRlSTIAN (Jan 13, 2022)

An "old style" Hornby layout without reverse loop due to the crossing. Hope that helps.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Chris

Any time that you have a track situation that allows you
to turn a train around to go the opposite way on the
same track you have a 'reverse loop'. The reason this
is a problem is that, electrically, the 'left' rail joints the 'right'
rail at some point...this, then, is an electrical short
circuit. An automatic 'reverse loop controller' which
usually runs around 50 or 60 US dollars is the best
way to solve the problem. Otherwise, it would take a complex
circuit of DPDT toggles to do the job and
would likely result in endless short circuits when you
fail to make the toggle throws.

The turntable itself is also a 'reverse loop'. However,
many turntable kits include a reverse control circuit.
Check your turntable manual for this. Otherwise you
would, again, need a DPDT circuit for it.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

ChrisR said:


> Hi timlange3 nice to meet you. I had also read some adverse comments about switching and I must say that despite the additional cost an automatic process has a lot of appeal although with the exchange rate and the South African Rand I have to watch the pennies. Maybe the simplest way is to find another way to reverse the direction of trains.


Since you are in DCC, there is no need to go for any kind of a manual switch. Use the automated reversing units. Believe me, I understand budgetary limitations, but don't sub-optimize on this one. Use the better technology, and eliminate one source of worry and potential problems from your layout. You will not regret it.


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

CTValleyRR said:


> Since you are in DCC, there is no need to go for any kind of a manual switch. Use the automated reversing units. Believe me, I understand budgetary limitations, but don't sub-optimize on this one. Use the better technology, and eliminate one source of worry and potential problems from your layout. You will not regret it.


Thanks for the encouragement and advise CTvalleyRR. Much appreciated. The challenge with all this technology is trying to understand all the electronics. Its like buying a VCR with all the trimmings but you only use 20%. I need to get to the basic requirements in order to enjoy my layout.
Thanks
ChrisR


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Before I glanced through all the replies that followed your original post, I was going to ask you, "What is the purpose of this layout?" It seems like it might be an exercise for you in design, or in using the design software, neither of which is something to object to...at all. But, as it looks, It is crowded and basic, and I strongly support all those who opine that it will quickly become boring. Even if it were several meters longer, it would eventually be boring, but with maybe two more meters of main line track you could have some curves, even a sweeping S-curve. The reversing loop is an improvement over a basic oval, although you understand that it adds so much complication that it's hardly worth it...a change of direction with added gaps in the rails, extra wiring, and either a DPDT or a digital reverser, which I recommend. I have used one on two successive layouts, the same unit, and it was flawless. A Digital Specialties PSX-AR.

If this is HO/OO, could we at least persuade you to think about N-scale? That would really open options for you.


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

DonR said:


> Chris
> 
> Any time that you have a track situation that allows you
> to turn a train around to go the opposite way on the
> ...


Hi DonR thanks for the insight. I am hoping to go with The Peco LK-55 TT with the PL-55 motor and control gear. Will have to check the specs to see if a RLM is required.
Regards
ChrisR


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## ChrisR (12 mo ago)

mesenteria said:


> Before I glanced through all the replies that followed your original post, I was going to ask you, "What is the purpose of this layout?" It seems like it might be an exercise for you in design, or in using the design software, neither of which is something to object to...at all. But, as it looks, It is crowded and basic, and I strongly support all those who opine that it will quickly become boring. Even if it were several meters longer, it would eventually be boring, but with maybe two more meters of main line track you could have some curves, even a sweeping S-curve. The reversing loop is an improvement over a basic oval, although you understand that it adds so much complication that it's hardly worth it...a change of direction with added gaps in the rails, extra wiring, and either a DPDT or a digital reverser, which I recommend. I have used one on two successive layouts, the same unit, and it was flawless. A Digital Specialties PSX-AR.
> 
> If this is HO/OO, could we at least persuade you to think about N-scale? That would really open options for you.


Hi Mesentaria thanks for your thoughts and recommendations. Fortunately or unfortunately I already have some 00 gauge Hornby track and 12x of there locomotives so am somewhat committed to this route. I will certainly investigate the PSX-AR unit. If I may ask how do I go about reversing a rake of coaches and a locomotive without a reverse loop? Any layout recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks ChrisR


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

ChrisR said:


> Thanks for the encouragement and advise CTvalleyRR. Much appreciated. The challenge with all this technology is trying to understand all the electronics. Its like buying a VCR with all the trimmings but you only use 20%. I need to get to the basic requirements in order to enjoy my layout.
> Thanks
> ChrisR


That's kind of my point... using the BASICS, as you term them, will result in you spending MORE time fiddling with your layout and less time actually enjoying it. 

You probably can't build a computer, but that doesn't stop you from hooking one up and using the Internet. Same story here.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

On the layout itself, let me preface any remarks by saying that this is YOUR layout, and only one person has to be happy with it: YOU. Any suggestions I make (or anyone else for that matter) are just that: suggestions based on our own experiences and, yes, tastes and preferences. Take them or leave them at your option.

With that out of the way, I think your layout plan, well, lacks focus. It looks like your plan was, "I have all this track, let's see how much of it I can fit in my limited space." You basically have no room for anything other than track, no scenery, few if any structures, none of the things that add visual interest beyond the trains, or to give them a sense of time and place. You have long station platforms and room for 3 trains to run around in a circle chasing their tails. Why have a yard at all? Are you going to build and breakdown different passenger trains? Unless you have a lot of visually distinct equipment, that doesn't really provide any variety to trains running around. If you have freight cars, where would they be going or coming from with no industries on the layout? My other big concern is that the reverse loop only works in one direction (without a backing move), and because it comes off the inside track, you will have to jockey trains around to make all those crossovers (each of which requires nearly a complete lap to cross over to the next track). Will you be able to single-handedly manage the 2-3 running trains so that a train making the crossover / reversing move can do so without colliding? Once a train has reversed, it has no choice but to keep travelling in that direction forever, or return to the yard. Trains can only depart the yard in a counterclockwise direction if coming from one of the four tracks in the center without blocking one or more of your main lines, unless you're planning to shuffle a lot of one or two car sections around.

Others have said that you will get bored watching trains chase their tails, and they're right (despite the complexity discussed above). For my money, I would eliminate one of the three concentric loops and the 4 center-most yard tracks. Place a scenic divider with a backdrop down the middle of the layout, angling it at the bottom to avoid the turntable if necessary. Build yourself a nice cityscape or suburban town up against that backdrop, and have your trains duck out of sight onto the back half of the layout, the re-emerge on the far side. This would at least give you the illusion that those trains departing that busy urban / suburban station are going somewhere. The space you have set aside more or less limits you to something resembling a loop, but you can disguise that fact. You could also have the outside loop stop at a shorter station, and have the inside loop meander through the countryside by making that loop more of a dogbone configuration. You can also consider trying to find some more space, or making your layout a 5-600mm wide shelf around the perimeter of that same space, with an operator's "cockpit" in the middle. That way, even though your trains are still making a loop, you can't see the whole loop at once, so it seems bigger. Another option would be to eliminate most of the "running tracks" and expand the yard and just focus on the switching operations.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

The hobby provides a lot of learning, some failures, some successes, and if you do things right, a ton of fun. We all have to start somewhere, and we have all forged ahead with a concept. On our second layout, we had learned some things and corrected some errors. A spaghetti bowlful of tracks doesn't improve its longevity if there's no real 'purpose' for the tracks. A real railroad isn't just a yard and trains whizzing past it. It's a complicated operation of classification, arrivals, departures, signals, sidings, customers, and maintenance. You have the procurement out of the way already, yet another facet of running a railroad. But where will your plant go? It should go to where your investors will see dividends and an eventual return of capital. That means having a purpose. It needs to receive goods and take them somewhere else. Ideally, also to return with paid lading. Running empty pays no bills. 

So, almost all of us eventually come to learn that an oval comprising a single main track, or three, gets boring. Even if it has a reversing loop, even if it has a yard. It needs to 'do' something. So, consider removing at least one of your three nested mains (I would love to convince you to eliminate two of them), and have a passing siding on one side of your oval, but also have at least one industrial customer for the railroad. Two would be great. Eliminate one of your ladder tracks in the yard and add a machine shop, or a wheel shop, or a shipper of 'whatever you want'. Spot cars there. Have another customer outboard of your main oval, probably in one of the corners of the layout. A barrel maker, sugar beet farmer, lumber yard, cattle ranch, a small factory making car batteries, the list is endless.

Watching trains run around is the nice part, particularly when you only have a few minutes for the trains. But, if you have an hour with them on a Sunday afternoon after you and the missus go for your walk, you should be classifying consists of mixed freight, making up a passenger commuter, spotting cars at the barrel factory,....anything besides whizzing endlessly around an oval.

You need variety and some purpose or you'll quickly lose interest. I mentioned the straight sides of your oval. Why not put a bit of a curve on at least one side? A radius of about 80" should do it. Imagine getting your head over the trains running down those sides and seeing them careen into the next oval end curve. Now picture this:










This is the 'straight' side of my folded loop on layout #2. The far side, of necessity, ran above my yard, beyond it, about 8" and it had to be straight. I knew better, by then, to make this other side, under which I had to duck to enter the central pit, straight. It was so much more pleasing watching cars snake a bit instead of trail on tangent.

Or this: [this is about five feet behind the locomotive's position in the first photo above]


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