# S Gage Steam



## T-Man

Thought I would post these.
The 307 built in 1954 to 1957.








300 AC built in 1949 and 1950.








I didn't think they were that old.

parts
collector


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## T-Man

*307 Drivers*

My problem was the plastic separation from the outer rim. OIl was in the crease so it had to be thoroughly cleaned out. I started by stripping the engine.Then I pulled the wheels.










I used the Goo Gone for cleaning.









AFter some Super glue I pressed the section together. One was stubborn and I had to use a washer and Aluminum flashing. The washer raised the pressure over the inner hub while the flashin protected the front surface.









I had one rim come apart while pressing through the worm gear. SO I reglued that and letting it set the night.


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## flyernut

Thanks for sharing


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## T-Man

It's like an educational slide show. I only recently learned that the white was plastic.

So getting ready for the wheels I noticed on axle has a taper or a larger side.anyway it was on the worm drive axle and it went into the chassis only one way.










The next trick was to line up the Worm gear. I used small washer cut open with a dremel to provide the spacing I needed.
Place the rods on for a roll check. OK









Nice brickwork!


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## T-Man

*Motor Test*

In testing the motor I noticed play in the armature so I added a spacer. It helped a lot.










The shell was next. Stamped Mar of 1954. The engine running and together again.









Next step is the eunit on the tender to see what happened with forward.


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## flyernut

It might be me looking at the pix, but it seems like your quartering is off?? Never mind, it's running, and it's right,lol...I've read somewhere that the armature plates should be at the same height as the field plates?


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## T-Man

On the top right picture, the left wheel. The stud is at the bottom. Then the bottom wheel is forward. They are 90 degrees off but one may be off so slightly. It is harder, when you don't have a gear tooth to rely on as in the Lionel.

The height is on before it was bouncing like a kangaroo. You see I have never had this engine running.


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## mikesdaddy

I'm new to this scene, but I find working on these old beauties quite rewarding. Looking good!


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## T-Man

*The four wire e unit*

Here is a look at the tender. It has never worked for me except in reverse. WIth a rewire tonight I got nothing.
I am thinking of by passing it for now after anothe rlok at the e unit.


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## Stillakid

*Reverse Unit Wiring...........*

Bob, some info I received from Thomas Barker. I used this wiring set-up to resolve the issues I had with my 300 & 302............................

View attachment 6258


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## T-Man

Jim, it gave me the idea to reverse the coil wires. It needs attention I should pull it apart and rebuild. Maybe work on the connections. I have a front drive problem too. I need some spacers. Another step backwards.


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## flyernut

Before you give up on it, try this. Cycle the e-unit until you get to a spot where the engine should be running,(not neutral).With a toothpick, push on the fingers to make sure they are making contact. I had the same problem with a 302 and it was driving me nuts.I asked Don Roder, owner of GarGraves Trackage, and whom I consider a friend,what I was doing wrong. He told me even though the fingers look like they're in contact with the drum, they might not be. Sure enough, that was the problem for me.


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## T-Man

There is no doubt about a bad connection. I have tried the pressure point. I just need to use the meter and figure out the wire lineup when the drum turns.

Timboy, you are a celeb. I read some of the stuff at CTT.

I would like you to make a section and have a camera snap every 15 seconds or so then compile them together. You definitely have the system down. The vendor of Port Hobbies also knew your work too!


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## Stillakid

Bob, for spacers in a pinch, copper tubing, 3/8" outer, 1/4" inner. Works every time.
If you need a reverse unit, PM me!

Merry Christmas!
Jim


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## Reckers

Beautiful work, Bob! Don't you just love working on something that old, that was built so well?


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## T-Man

Stillakid said:


> Bob, for spacers in a pinch, copper tubing, 3/8" outer, 1/4" inner. Works every time.
> If you need a reverse unit, PM me!
> 
> Merry Christmas!
> Jim


 I actually have wheels spacers. I used them on the armature shaft. It wasn't until the engine drove off the rail on the corner thatr I remembered they were on the front axle. They fell off when I pulled the wheel.

The super glue is holding. The e unit is pulled amd now I am just trying to get it running. I had a a snag in both push rods and had to hammer them straight.

Just full of surprises. If I visit Port Line Hobbies I will tell then you said HI.

With the 307 tender I did learn that a weight is needed. I am not sure if I have one in the 300AC. Something to check out.

Those worm gears are a pain to press. I recall the same experience with my F-3. The Lionel 259e was a snap.


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## T-Man

*307*

I spaced the wheels and it may be too much.
I have a short somewhere.
The rods are sticking. 
SO I am just having fun.
It just isn't running right.


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## Stillakid

Bob, with the armature removed, do the wheels turn freely? If they do, have you tried using a washer(s) with the armature? My 300AC had that short type of problem and it turned out to be the lamp(not the fixture, but the lamp!)


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## T-Man

Yeah I think I will disconnect it.
I may go round three on the wheels.
There has been some drag in the crossheads.
At least nothing is burning up.
I going to give a rest for now, maybe later on.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> Yeah I think I will disconnect it.
> I may go round three on the wheels.
> There has been some drag in the crossheads.
> At least nothing is burning up.
> I going to give a rest for now, maybe later on.


Are the wheels are quartered correctly?j


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## T-Man

I thought they were.The lineup changes since I have no gears to help. 
The front will come off again. Any suggestions? 
I am not rushing back into this yet.


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## flyernut

I also had a problem with a 303 I was working on that sounds similar to yours. The crossheads, on one side, seem to stick or drag when moving into the pistons. What I found out was the chassis was not centered in the boiler casting, causing a bind on one side. I shifted the chassis to the other side and caused a bind in the other side but not on the original side. Try making sure the chassis is square, and maybe look at your quartering again. Run the loco without the linkage. The quartering angle should be 88 degrees, but I know 90 works also, and it's the easiest.


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## T-Man

I had a sticky linkage. I still have a short probably from the wheels. I removed the shell to test drive. The only other area is the armature spacers. Still testing.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> I had a sticky linkage. I still have a short probably from the wheels. I removed the shell to test drive. The only other area is the armature spacers. Still testing.


Just throwing this out.. Make sure the white insulators are not broken. ( I think you already mentioned this earlier). Also be sure none of the wires are touching the boiler casting. I had this happen to me, and it threw me. It was intermittent. Back to the short, my k335 would run fine on my threadmill, but when I put it on the track, it would go about 2 inches and short out. The problem was a loose white insulator. The reason it wasn't shorting out on the threadmill was that the drive wheels were on bearings, and not carrying any current. I think the only way you're going to have a short from the wheels is because of the insulator being broken, cracked, or loose.


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## T-Man

The short is gone. The spacers were placed back on the rear axle. I also have wires crossed in back. SO now the front doesnt stay on the track. I will have to remove the spacers. I think they are just too wide apart.
Thanks for the suggestios. It does ride smooth but insists on doing wheelies. I am also adjusting the draw bar there may be tension there too. All these started with messing wit the wheels. My plastics are in place and solid for once.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> The short is gone. The spacers were placed back on the rear axle. I also have wires crossed in back. SO now the front doesnt stay on the track. I will have to remove the spacers. I think they are just too wide apart.
> Thanks for the suggestios. It does ride smooth but insists on doing wheelies. I am also adjusting the draw bar there may be tension there too. All these started with messing wit the wheels. My plastics are in place and solid for once.


I'm sure you've done the "dime" measurement for width. When I have a chassis on my test stand, they also do the wheelie thing,lol. There's no weight to hold it down.When it comes to wheels on the chassis, I usually take the approach that they're ok. I just check the spacing, spin them for trueness, and check the insulators. They're pretty much bullet-proof, and beside just a good cleaning and degreasing, I leave well enough alone.


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## T-Man

The saga continues. I have a short somewhere, I wonder if it is in the tender?
I have tried the meter but it checks out good. My second choice is not the engine at but my KW transformer. So I switched over to the A terminal and no shorts. I should be satisfied but nothing has been consistent. I am just about ready to attack the front again. The only inidcation I get fron the transformer is that it is harder to turn and it has never been serviced.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> The saga continues. I have a short somewhere, I wonder if it is in the tender?
> I have tried the meter but it checks out good. My second choice is not the engine at but my KW transformer. So I switched over to the A terminal and no shorts. I should be satisfied but nothing has been consistent. I am just about ready to attack the front again. The only inidcation I get fron the transformer is that it is harder to turn and it has never been serviced.


Have you tried a different tender yet?


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## Stillakid

*Short?*

Bob, I had a tender that I picked up cheap with a "large lot" purchase that caused me grief also. Turned out to be the _fiber washer_ (PA8715-B), and the _insulating bushing_ (PA10209)
Someone had applied to much heat when soldering the leads to the trucks. Solder had damaged the bushing When the trucks swiveled on the track, there was some solder that made contact with the frame and shorted it.
Just a thoughthwell:


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## T-Man

I have thought of it. Today, I am planning on readjusting the front axle to reduce the width. I only have one other tender. I may hook up the KW to another loop and watch the fun to test that.

If it is the tender I may drill them out and use a nylon fastener. I have some good ideas now I have to prove it. The solder looks OK.

If not, I will just have to visit Port Line Hobbies.


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## flyernut

Stillakid said:


> Bob, I had a tender that I picked up cheap with a "large lot" purchase that caused me grief also. Turned out to be the _fiber washer_ (PA8715-B), and the _insulating bushing_ (PA10209)
> Someone had applied to much heat when soldering the leads to the trucks. Solder had damaged the bushing When the trucks swiveled on the track, there was some solder that made contact with the frame and shorted it.
> Just a thoughthwell:


If you need new bushings and such for your tender, there's some on ebay, and I have purchased them from the seller. They are EXCELLENT!!! They work exactly like originals, but are indeed better because of the larger head. I highly recommend them!! The ebay item # is 330490236108, and the seller is afk5. Like I said, I've purchased many items from this seller, and he's great to work with. I'm not trying to push things on anyone, just throwing out a suggestion.


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## T-Man

AF people don't refer to problems often enough, but it is good to know the tender insulators can be suspect.


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## Stillakid

*No problems?*

*Flyer,* I've also bought from him and you're right, good stuff, fast service, fair price

Now *Bob,* you know that we have issues with our "stuff!"  
In fact, if you recall, you had to help me quite a bit with some issues several months ago:thumbsup:

There are more "S" people now, and so, MTF becomes the place to go for help Truth be told, if it wasn't for you and *Reckers, *I might have decided to stick with Lionel

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## T-Man

Well OK,

Today was interesting. The transformer is OK. I removed the tender and the coil heated up fast. My wheels turn freely. So my coil is bad. It takes 15 seconds or so to heat up and the transformer trips the red light. The wheel alignment is good now no derailments.


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## Reckers

Stillakid said:


> *Flyer,* I've also bought from him and you're right, good stuff, fast service, fair price
> 
> Now *Bob,* you know that we have issues with our "stuff!"
> In fact, if you recall, you had to help me quite a bit with some issues several months ago:thumbsup:
> 
> There are more "S" people now, and so, MTF becomes the place to go for help Truth be told, if it wasn't for you and *Reckers, *I might have decided to stick with Lionel
> 
> :laugh::laugh::laugh:



Bob, the AF would have drawn you in, with or without us. *L* We just gave you some entertainment as you stepped off the cliff!:laugh:


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## T-Man

*Update, out of pity*

This is my news, not so good for the AF crowd.

The 307 coil.

Is bad, I unwound it, 167 trurns. 22 gage wire. There was a short to the ground. The rewind wasn't perfect and heated right up comlete with smoke. That was the bench test. It wasn't on the track.

I am stumped, why the heat up. Everything turns freely.

For the s gagers I still have the best trestle around.
The 300AC is working OK. Slow but steady.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Bummer.

You're talking about the e-unit coil, rather than the motor field coil, right ???

TJ


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## T-Man

Motor Coil.


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## flyernut

Timboy said:


> The 307 never was issued with an e-unit. It had a reverse unit.


Same thing, different name?


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## T-Man

You have to think 80 years old when the *E*lectric *unit *replaced the reverse switch in the 259e. Anyway the 307 reverse unit is in the tender.


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## Reckers

Hey, Bob....can you tell the nomenclature thing is one of Timboy's pet peeves?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Timboy said:


> No. An e-unit is an electronic reverse unit with I guess a little computer chip or some other kind of hard-wired circuitry. It functions a little differently than a mechanical reversing unit. Lionel and Dallee Electronics makes them. Oddly, Lionel also refers to their post-war reverse unit as an e-unit. Go figure. But, if it is a vintage, unaltered American Flyer loco, then it has a mechanical reverse unit and the Gilbert Factory called it a reverse unit. We wouldn't call a Chevrolet a Ford would we? So why would we call an American Flyer reverse unit a Lionel E-unit? Lots of guys do it and it never makes any kind of sense to me.
> 
> Timboy


Well, those "mechanical" reversing units have been called E-Units from long before you were born, even much of the Lionel literature calls them E-units.


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## flyernut

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, those "mechanical" reversing units have been called E-Units from long before you were born, even much of the Lionel literature calls them E-units.


My thoughts also...


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## Big Ed

Timboy said:


> That's Lionel's business. I don't like to see Flyer infected.



But it is infected, 
in 1967 Lionel purchased American Flyer and "infected" it.


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## flyernut

I think the newest flyer I have is a 21105 Atlantic, in fact, the entire set.


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## Stillakid

*American-American Flyer or Chinese-American, Lionel*

*"Were original Lionel trains made exclusively in the USA?"
*Yes. "Original" Lionel trains are generally considered to be those trains made by the Lionel Corporation from 1900-1969. The Lionel Corporation manufactured trains in New York and New Jersey until 1969. After 1970 ownership of the Lionel name and trademarks changed several times and trains continued to be manufactured in Mexico, the United States, and most recently, in the Pacific rim. The last made-in-the USA Lionel train was manufactured at the Michigan factory in August, 2001. That manufacturing facility has now been closed and Lionel trains are now *produced in the Pacific rim* (can't even say China!),according to the precise high quality standards of Lionel LLC. (from the lionel site)

So I guess that the company that went out of business, was at least, an American company. American jobs, supporting American families. And yes, towards the end, they too made "junk!" But it was American junk.

I have both and even some "N" too. Why is it that you're so threatened by the mention of American Flyer terms, or the quality of the product? Do I detect a bit of envy? For those that have other brands too, obviously American Flyer trains have some redeeming qualities that give the user pleasure. 

Regards,
Non-existent, Jim


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## tjcruiser

Jim (on "non-existant" Jim) -- Good to see you back. Nice comments on American-made products and legacies.

Tim -- What's with all of the "Xxxxx" posts? I'm confused.

TJ


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## T-Man

My guess is Frankenstein lips. Sewn up!


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## Reckers

Just a minor contribution to the topic...

Most Flyer people seem to view AF equipment (S scale) in 4 distinct groups: pre-war, post-war, imminent-bankuptcy AF, and Flyonel. It's not my place to speak for the rest, but in general, the first two are regarded as the best AF ever manufactured: 60 years later, and the stuff is still running and being collected. The pre-bankruptcy era stuff is mostly acquired by beginners with no knowledge of the equipment, or those who seem to need to acquire one of everything, regardless of quality. As for Flyonel...the best thing I can say about it is that it's new. It's sort of like hiring Andy Warhol to paint Washington crossing the Delaware: it works okay, but you pay 5 times as much and it just doesn't look right.


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## flyernut

Reckers said:


> Just a minor contribution to the topic...
> 
> Most Flyer people seem to view AF equipment (S scale) in 4 distinct groups: pre-war, post-war, imminent-bankuptcy AF, and Flyonel. It's not my place to speak for the rest, but in general, the first two are regarded as the best AF ever manufactured: 60 years later, and the stuff is still running and being collected. The pre-bankruptcy era stuff is mostly acquired by beginners with no knowledge of the equipment, or those who seem to need to acquire one of everything, regardless of quality. As for Flyonel...the best thing I can say about it is that it's new. It's sort of like hiring Andy Warhol to paint Washington crossing the Delaware: it works okay, but you pay 5 times as much and it just doesn't look right.


Nice observation..


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## Big Ed

*"Were original Lionel trains made exclusively in the USA?"
*Yes. "Original" Lionel trains are generally considered to be those trains made by the Lionel Corporation from 1900-1969. The Lionel Corporation manufactured trains in New York and New Jersey until 1969. After 1970 ownership of the Lionel name and trademarks changed several times and trains continued to be manufactured in Mexico, the United States, and most recently, in the Pacific rim. The last made-in-the USA Lionel train was manufactured at the Michigan factory in August, 2001. That manufacturing facility has now been closed and Lionel trains are now *produced in the Pacific rim* (can't even say China!),according to the precise high quality standards of Lionel LLC. (from the lionel site)

So I guess that the company that went out of business, was at least, an American company. American jobs, supporting American families. And yes, towards the end, they too made "junk!" But it was American junk.

I have both and even some "N" too. Why is it that you're so threatened by the mention of American Flyer terms, or the quality of the product? Do I detect a bit of envy? For those that have other brands too, obviously American Flyer trains have some redeeming qualities that give the user pleasure. 

Regards,
Non-existent, Jim 








I guess this statement was directed towards me?

IF SO THEN,

Jim I have said this before...I like all model trains regardless of scale or make. 
I (unlike some) do not belittle anyone's choice of scale. 

I don't need anymore different scales, I have enough now and not enough room for them as it is.
S would just be one more to add to my mess of trains.
Would I like some? Yes sure, but I don't have the room.
I have to draw a line somewhere.
 
And a matter of fact, I like the white walls on the S engines too!

I see Timboy is going through every post and xxxxxx ing them out.
I guess he (and you?) can sure as heck dish it out about O, but can't take any in return?
Or is he getting rid of evidence of his O bashing? As 60% were just O bashing. 15% gibberish. 25% other. 

All my bashing of S was done in kidding manner and were a response back to an O bashing statement.

I thought most of the bashing was being done in a joking manner?
I guess it was not? 

Like I said I guess some can dish it out but can't take any back.


Whatever.


Non- existent, Jim? 
more like..... Lurker,Jim.

Regards, Ed

xxxxxxxxx


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## tjcruiser

We're all on the same team here, guys. Nothing wrong with a little good-natured kidding now and then. Let's keep it light, and remember to keep a smile on our face, OK?

Separately ...

Tim ... Are you deleting your posts all over on other threads? What gives?

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

That's for your next rock.


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## T-Man

*Something to think about*

One good thing about this forum is that it keeps me thinking.
Here at MTF, there are very few guidelines.
My raison d'etre ( reason to be), is to present material to generate interest.
This has worked well. Now we have a vast range of talent and is growing every day.

One thing I have learned and others, is that discussion has to be family orientated. This limits the range of jokes, we all hate a bad influence.

I think members should find their niche and go for it.
This leads to my new belief in the sanctity of starting and having a thread.
This is my thread and I am pursuing a problem.
So whoever starts a thread should set the pace. The author or the mods can decide to keep it or whatever.

My problem is the threads are getting huge and it takes more time to find information. Finding info has become a real challenge for me as this place grows. I enjoy discussion but searching through pages is a pain. I like to answer a post right away but without the facts at hand it has to wait.

Then again I can't be everywhere and do everything and what I do here has to have some quality or benefit behind it. 

Maybe after reading this, it will at least give you something to think about.


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## flyernut

I believe a lot of us use the forum as we would a telephone; a general conversation, talking about what we like. It does throw one off sometimes, but I believe the feeling is that we're just a bunch of guys at the local watering hole bs'ing. And now my post has gotten us off even farther,lol.


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## Big Ed

Sorry T Man

I was thinking the same thing as I was replying to Jim's comment, but could not stop from answering him.

I just had to make it known I DON'T HATE ANY SCALE.
I wish I could have them all.

Sorry for screwing up your thread.

EDIT,
I won't let it happen again.
EDIT AGAIN,
I deleted the smile rock I will put it in my thread cleaning yours up a hair.
I deleted the ruffled feathers man too.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> This leads to my new belief in the sanctity of starting and having a thread.
> This is my thread and I am pursuing a problem.
> So whoever starts a thread should set the pace.


T-Man,

Very well stated, and an important reminder to all of us. Keep it family-friendly. Stay (mostly) on subject and focused. Allow the thread-starter to set a tone.

Thanks for putting it all so clearly / politely, T.

TJ


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## T-Man

NO big deal I get off the path too. That picture was interesting. 

My problem now is the rewound coil heated up. I will have to plan a next move before I use another one. Plus I need a parts run.


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## tjcruiser

T,

If that's insulated wire (ceramic coated, or whatever they call it), what would make the coil heat up significantly?

TJ


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## T-Man

That's the puzzle. I could of messed up the winding.

Maybe the torque is too much. but it rolls frrely.

The insulated drivers were not on the track so it's not a short there.

I could change out the brushes and springs and tighten those barrel connectons.

Maybe there is too much play in the shaft bearing.

I don't even have the light connected and the reverse unit was disconnected long ago.:dunno:


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