# ~ A Table is Not a Shelf ! ~



## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

There are those in our hobby today who show disregard for correct established hobby and construction nomenclature. They are like the insurrectionists who when shown to be wrong go against the norms and laws and would rather keep lying and defaming than to admit their mistakes ! They'll do anything they can to save face even if it harms others..
A table is just that; a table. It has either 4 legs or is the top surface of a work bench or cabinetry of some kind..
A shelf is a narrow surface of some composition which is suspended from a wall, has no legs but is held in place by either vertical triangular shapes of metal or wood, or sits on a cantilever type support bracket system or in slots..This is the definition of two different methods of supporting objects on a flat surface..
Pliers aren't called squeezers. Hammers aren't called pounders. Nails aren't called pins, screw drivers aren't called head turners, saws aren't called razors, razors aren't called saws...Tables aren't called shelves, shelves aren't called tables.
In the toy and model train world trains are placed on 4 legged surfaces called tables,
or on non-legged surfaces called shelves and ...NEVER THE 'TWAIN' SHALL MEET !!
On Thanksgiving 2022 will you have the family sit at a table or a shelf to eat and to carve the turkey? When you take your child to the library will you teach her to call the shelves of books, 'tables' ?
Do you peruse the tables in a market for tomato sauce, or its shelves ?
What about those various surfaces in your refrigerator ? Are they referred to as tables ? No ? Why ?
A miniature train layout is created on a table or on a shelf. One has 4 legs..the other, none..
A certain person in the hobby has a 'timesaver' type switching layout under construction...It's currently sitting atop a table..He has referred to it as a 'shelf' layout. If and when he instead is able to suspend it from a wall on triangular brackets or other legless devices, it will be a shelf layout..If it remains on a bench or surface having 4 legs it will be a table top layout, ...PERIOD....
Now, bring it on insurrectionists !! Can't wait to hear yet again your illogical cop out excuses for wrong MRRing carpentry, benchwork, and electrical [TO] terminology you make.. I fully expect it by now..

~ Respond as you wish. This will be my final statement concerning this hobby subject matter. ~ *M*


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

You need to cut way back on the coffee.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

WOW, 
Are you sure that a table can not be a shelf?


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## QueenoftheGN (Dec 10, 2019)

I wonder what he thinks of this...


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*PS* (hee hee !)
None of you above sought to dis me. That's fine ! They're cute..
*QueenofGN* ! One on left is a *table*. One in mid is,...get this:... *risers *(for plants. Huge ones hold orchestras sometimes. (*I* *know* !!! One *collapsed* under we musicians on a New Years eve gig !! ). One on right, *shelves* or shelving..(could hold a tiny MRR or diorama). 
*M*


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Hmmm, what would ya call a surface that is suspended at all four corners by ropes?
Asking for a friend.


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## Andreash (Dec 30, 2018)

And here I thought model railroading was fun.....


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

D&J Railroad said:


> Hmmm, what would ya call a surface that is suspended at all four corners by ropes?
> Asking for a friend.


📌
Well, if you can sit on it, a swing !! If tiny, maybe a sling !! Hey, it ain't in the hobby !..... 
So maybe that's no thing !


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## TripleO (Apr 21, 2016)

Hmmm........I move we shelve this topic, or does someone want to table that motion?


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

telltale said:


> *PS* (hee hee !)
> None of you above sought to dis me. That's fine ! They're cute..
> *QueenofGN* ! One on left is a *table*. One in mid is,...get this:... *risers *(for plants. Huge ones hold orchestras sometimes. (*I* *know* !!! One *collapsed* under we musicians on a New Years eve gig !! ). One on right, *shelves* or shelving..(could hold a tiny MRR or diorama).
> *M*


I just thought I would point out that that is three pictures of the same piece of furniture that has a pivoting surface on it.

And to confuse the issue further, when I am at the library or the grocery store, those shelves are all upright standing on the floor with some legs or foundational structure but with no attachments to a wall whatsoever.

In this case, I do understand what you are trying to say. But I am in the hobby for fun and I am not going to be pedantic about things like this. Just like when I am shooting and someone calls my rifle a gun, or asks me how many bullets fit in the pistol's clip (it is a magazine in mine, not a clip), I believe that the essence of this subject is communication. If someone can communicate an idea with me and we can understand what the person is saying, I don't care if they use the wrong term. I had this lesson driven home when I flunked a statistics test for not being precise in my wording. That is an area where the exact wording can make a difference.

I believe that in this specific case, this might be the very heart of the issue. Someone used the term shelf layout and you thought of it as attached to the wall and may have had ideas or made suggestions based on that misconception when they meant a narrow table by your definition. If it causes miscommunication, terminology can be a problem. But if we are in this for fun, especially if we want to welcome new people to the hobby and keep them in it, we need to be more forgiving about using what we may think of as incorrect terms. We can clear up any miscommunications easier when we are all relaxed.

As a newcomer, I have found that this group is very welcoming and helpful. I had to learn some new terms and make sure I tried to use the correct ones, but everyone has been very helpful along the way. I have a relatively thick skin and sometimes am amused to watch arguments, but I know that it can chase others away so I try to avoid them.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

When is a table not a bench? Does a bookcase have shelves? When are shelves not counters....or cabinets? Is the rope-suspended item a platform, a table, a shelf, or a rostrum? Could it be a plinth?


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*OK OK !! I GOT IT !!*: If a shelf and table are the same, then why do we never say 'turnshelf'
as opposed to turntable ?! As in:
"Hey guys ! Check out the pics of my new Walthers turnshelf I bought on ebay !!" Hee hee !!..

~ All seriousness aside I do believe we got to end this string soon ! Oops ! I mean, thread !! ~


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

This hobby is very difficult...... Queen of the North, your visual presentation of the discussion matter was awesome !

Telltale, how is that picture on the right shelves if it has legs, I am so freaking confused,......please help !

can a Shelf be attached to the wall yet have a couple supporting legs or is it then a bar ?

please advise


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

I forgot, I am having rum now, even worse than coffee for these dilemmas.


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## QueenoftheGN (Dec 10, 2019)

BigGRacing said:


> This hobby is very difficult...... Queen of the North, your visual presentation of the discussion matter was awesome !
> 
> Telltale, how is that picture on the right shelves if it has legs, I am so freaking confused,......please help !
> 
> ...


Wait... but isn't this a shelf...?
I'm so confused now...


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

BigGRacing said:


> I am having rum now


Can you work all night on a sip?


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Queen,* let's just say this: Nothing is carved in stone with the English language...
My references are from within the hobby, not to outside decorative furniture..
Out there call it a shefiddytabligooviddipuke !! I doesn't mind...
But, if I must, within the hobby we could conclude it's a cutaway portion of, ready ?..........
open grid benchwork !!
It is essentially a bench, or benches atop one another...resembling perhaps the corner of some MRR on the Holodeck of the Star Ship Enterprise !! "To boldly go where no train has............"

*Gary*, because sir, it is a large cantilever-like structure known to many as risers or a riser, as I'd said in post #5.
I suppose you could also call it a cross section of a huge G scale helix ! 🏡🏚🛤🌄🌵


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Thanks Q* !


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess you found it too hard to stick to your original statement. Just curious when the actual final statement comes. 



telltale said:


> ~ Respond as you wish. This will be my final statement concerning this hobby subject matter. ~ *M*


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I guess you found it too hard to stick to your original statement. Just curious when the actual final statement comes.


*John, *
Post #5 was in the form of a 'P.S.' (hee hee) ! Then they were being nice to me. 
So I continued being nice to them ! 
Plus, I do hope this *is* the final post in this thread, myself ! (Or is it my shelf ?!)


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

It's not MY shelf!


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## flyerrich (Feb 17, 2014)

QueenoftheGN said:


> I wonder what he thinks of this...
> 
> View attachment 555194


This obviously a table or a rack not a shelf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

I think Shakespeare covered this. It was called Much Ado About Nothing.


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## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Can't argue that


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## Djsfantasi (Mar 19, 2019)

telltale said:


> *Queen,* let's just say this: Nothing is carved in stone with the English language...
> My references are from within the hobby, not to outside decorative furniture..
> Out there call it a shefiddytabligooviddipuke !! I doesn't mind...
> But, if I must, within the hobby we could conclude it's a cutaway portion of, ready ?..........
> ...


You’ve missed the best type of model railroad support structure. It’s not a table; there’s no table like surface. It’s not a shelf, but it could be like one. It’s not a bench, nor any structure which you have referenced.

It’s L-girder benchwork. There is not a parallel surface. There is not a formal edge. And scenery and track support can be adjusted and moved with little effort.

So what would you call it?


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## Marklx200 (Jun 14, 2015)

QueenoftheGN said:


> I wonder what he thinks of this...
> 
> View attachment 555194


 I'll check for the proper nomenclature from my book on my book shelf as soon as I clear it of my dirty dinner plates.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Djsfantasi said:


> You’ve missed the best type of model railroad support structure. It’s not a table; there’s no table like surface. It’s not a shelf, but it could be like one. It’s not a bench, nor any structure which you have referenced.
> 
> It’s L-girder benchwork. There is not a parallel surface. There is not a formal edge. And scenery and track support can be adjusted and moved with little effort.
> 
> So what would you call it?


📌
Just to be clear, I've always been an open-grid-only-guy..But many times in the past I have included
'L girder' benchwork in my posts as the if the sister-method to open grid. I only really dislike 4'X8' flat table use..I'd ban it if I could..
For shelf layouts I believe L-g is just not necessary at such shallow depth...But, I do think huge MRRs can benefit the most from L-g benchwork..and why I hadn't brought it up this time. Sorry.....
*M*


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## buddymedbery (Nov 5, 2020)

telltale said:


> There are those in our hobby today who show disregard for correct established hobby and construction nomenclature. They are like the insurrectionists who when shown to be wrong go against the norms and laws and would rather keep lying and defaming than to admit their mistakes ! They'll do anything they can to save face even if it harms others..
> A table is just that; a table. It has either 4 legs or is the top surface of a work bench or cabinetry of some kind..
> A shelf is a narrow surface of some composition which is suspended from a wall, has no legs but is held in place by either vertical triangular shapes of metal or wood, or sits on a cantilever type support bracket system or in slots..This is the definition of two different methods of supporting objects on a flat surface..
> Pliers aren't called squeezers. Hammers aren't called pounders. Nails aren't called pins, screw drivers aren't called head turners, saws aren't called razors, razors aren't called saws...Tables aren't called shelves, shelves aren't called tables.
> ...


I am going to ignore all the back and forth and ask this question for a newbie, since terms are often used I don't understand. Is there a place with a canonical list of model railroad/railroad terms?


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## kenf (Dec 7, 2019)

telltale said:


> This will be my final statement concerning this hobby subject matter. ~ *M*


Oh god of All Shelves and Other Similar Flat Surfaces, we beseech you to ensure that this, in fact, the OP’s final statement concerning this hobby. We praise you for your tender and “prototypical” mercy in seeing to it that this happens.

With affection,

Your Generally Disorderly and Disobedient Friend-in-Railroading


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## kenf (Dec 7, 2019)

TripleO said:


> Hmmm........I move we shelve this topic, or does someone want to table that motion?


Fine, but first one minute of non-moving air between us to honor the passing of this topic from the OP’s repertoire, or should I say skill set, or rather knowledge base, or, rather, body of knowledge, or, rather, lexicon or, rather, database of hot takes.


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## Refugee (Oct 2, 2019)

Nobody ever heard of 'Elf on a Table'.


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

An acquaintance of mine built a shelf switching layout on an 18x96 inch surface supported by 4 legs with casters. He liked the idea so much he built another one and stuck it on the end of the first. Then he ran out of wall, so he went around the corner and started down the next wall with a little square section to make the bend. He finally got back to the opposite side of the door where he had started. All his (tabling? shelving?) units are interchangeable and can be assembled in any order. I think he's tabled the question and shelved the motion.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

buddymedbery said:


> I am going to ignore all the back and forth and ask this question for a newbie, since terms are often used I don't understand. Is there a place with a canonical list of model railroad/railroad terms?


Yes. This was done by one of our members.








Model Railroad Terminology


There have been requests from newbies in the past for a list of terms used in model railroading. I compiled this one. I posted it in the beginners section and I'm posting a copy here since this section gets the most views. Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:




www.modeltrainforum.com


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

I don't know about you fellows, but I've always found that pedantry is a great way to make friends and increase everyone's enjoyment of the hobby... 

For my part, I've got zero problem with someone calling a narrow layout against a wall a "shelf" layout whether it has 0, 2, 4 or more legs per section. I'm a relative newbie, but when I hear "shelf layout" I just think of a narrow layout -regardless of suspension or support method- mostly along a wall.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I do think that nomenclature is meant to be both shared and understood by the widest part of any one population. Could be stamp collectors, leaf collectors, car collectors....they all need a frame of reference with which to base their exchanges of fact and opinion. This is what 'taxonomy' means and intends. Classifying things de facto means assigning them unique names, unique meaning that the same term cannot be shared by two or more obviously disparate or different concepts or things. Those who say otherwise are those who insist that a male can be female at the same time, or that either term is silly and a cultural artefact that ought to be discarded, or at least used interchangeably. On that vein, a tree can be a bush or a shrub. A shelf can be a table or a bench, or even a trunk or a crate since they're all just made-up terms.

Oh, does anyone know what a 'reductio ad absurdum' is?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm stunned this thread has lived on this long.


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## Andreash (Dec 30, 2018)

I find this funny, sometimes I post a idea (using a iPad to simulate rain on a pond), and gets hardly any reaction, and a post about a table/shelf gets everyone excited......good grief (as Charlie Brown would say)😈☕🍩


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm stunned this thread has lived on this long.


Can we shelve it then?


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## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Why not, we tried tabling it...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yes, Sweep it under the table. 
Or is it a shelf?


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## kenf (Dec 7, 2019)

mesenteria said:


> IOh, does anyone know what a 'reductio ad absurdum' is?


Every post is an _essential _contribution.

Does anyone know what "essential" means? 

Are there any philosophers or ethicists present?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

kenf said:


> Every post is an _essential _contribution.
> 
> Does anyone know what "essential" means?
> 
> Are there any philosophers or ethicists present?


We have a poet, but he don't know it.


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## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Rug?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cfurnari said:


> Rug?


Or is it Carpet?


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## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Depends on the trouble you're in


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Big Ed said:


> Yes, Sweep it under the table.
> Or is it a shelf?


I think the appropriate hobby nomenclature is "quad-supported-train-plateau".


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