# Hypothetical Mogul question...



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Just wondering out loud... I was reading where some owners missed the Lionel call out for Moguls to be returned. As I understand it nothing will be done for them even though some owners did the product registration.

I also understand that all the Moguls made were not retrieved and repaired. Basically hobby shops here and there may still have one, two or more in inventory.

The standard warranty is one year from date of purchase, within a three year window of date of manufacture. I believe we are still in the three year window.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

So if John Doe buys one tomorrow and it exhibits the same issues as some have seen is it still warranted??

Just curious.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I’m pleading the fifth on this one. To do otherwise will get me booted from this forum and every other forum inbetween:knock_teeth_out:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Good question. Someone has already reported he sent his engine to Lionel after the deadline and it was returned to him unrepaired.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Interesting question. I'd suggest that John Doe not tempt fate. 

By now, John Doe probably has heard something about the Legacy Mogul and should understand the gamble he's about to take. Considering Pete's comment about a customer who sent his Mogul in for repair after "the deadline" only to receive it back untouched, I'd say John Doe should discuss the issue very openly with his dealer. And if there's anything wrong with that particular Mogul, he should ensure the dealer will take it back (i.e., during the dealer's normal return window policy) with a full refund as the solution... just to play it safe. Better yet -- if John Doe is local to the dealer, then just stop in and have the dealer test-run the Mogul EXTENSIVELY before purchase.

I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt Lionel will do anything about these Moguls now -- especially that it's not 100% clear that Lionel Stateside even knows what China did to "fix" these little gems.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Right now Lionel doesn't even have the parts to fix these. It appears two of the issues, traction tires too thick and missing bushings are listed as NLA for both the Legacy and TMCC engines.

Why they can't source these locally, who knows. It takes me about 5 minutes to make them on a manual machine. On a CNC lathe, maybe ten seconds.

Pete


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Are these locos actually fixable?
Do they all have the same problems?
What are they?
Have these problems shown up in other locos?

I have heard there are problems that are not being fixed but I don't think I have actually seen what the problem(s) are. Probably missed it. Understand that this has been going
on for some time. ???


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

rogruth said:


> Are these locos actually fixable?
> Do they all have the same problems?
> What are they?
> Have these problems shown up in other locos?
> ...



All very good questions. It's my understanding that the early reports of these Moguls indicated slow-speed "jerky" operation. In the worst cases, the locomotive would actually lock up and stop moving altogether. Bottom line... the locomotive just didn't display the smooth performance in all speed-steps that Legacy is known for. 

Back in the early TMCC/Odyssey days, those locos were well-known for what was referred to as the "Odyssey LURCH". Rather than start smoothly, the locos would lurch forward from 0 to a faster than ideal starting speed... hence the "lurch". Now the Legacy Mogul problem is different than the TMCC lurch, but I bring this up because good slow-speed performance is clearly achieved thru a combination of hardware, gear ratios, and electronic firmware. Lionel was never all that specific as to which of those -- or possibly some combination of them -- were the root cause of the problem. Clearly there was a major snafu in the Legacy Mogul, because the later TMCC versions of the Mogul worked like a Swiss watch. I have two of those -- no issues whatsoever, aside from 2 chuffs per rev (standard with TMCC) as opposed to 4. And they work smooth as silk in Legacy/CAB2 environments.

Also was never quite clear if "every" Legacy Mogul was affected. Enough were, so Lionel ultimately arranged to have them sent back to China for repair, and folks are just getting them back now as we speak.

That's where things stand for now. If somebody REALLY wanted a Mogul today, I'd recommend searching for a TMCC one on the secondary market and steer clear of the Legacy models. I was lucky to grab 2 "new old stock" TMCC Moguls when Gryzboski Trains purchased a huge estate collection containing many items that were still sealed brand new in their shipping cartons. So the older TMCC units are still out there... just need a bit of luck finding one (or two). 

David


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> So the older TMCC units are still out there... just need a bit of luck finding one (or two).
> 
> David


This may be a case of unscrupulous people selling the new by trying to pass it off as the old. I've been the victim one time of the opposite (claimed PS2 loco that was PS1). 

The best thing to do, frankly, is avoid them altogether, unless you really know . . .

And for the record, maybe not all were bad, but the one I bought was really bad. Very jerky at low speeds, very noisy mechanical "whiring noise" at high speeds.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

rogruth said:


> Are these locos actually fixable?
> Do they all have the same problems?
> What are they?
> Have these problems shown up in other locos?
> ...


They are definitely repairable at least the ones that haven't been returned to China. The problem now is you have to make the parts yourself as Lionel is out of stock of whats needed.
They are identical to the TMCC version except for the motor and gears and those ran perfectly.

This is the part that was apparently left out of many of them. Its bushing for the siderod on the front wheels and now NLA. Easy to make though.










No one at Lionel has confirmed what the problem(s) are but reading between the lines and owning both the TMCC and Legacy engines it could be the bushing, traction tires or motor mount out of spec causing the gears not to mesh properly. 
Lionel did indicate the gears had to be changed out requiring reprograming the RCMC but I believe a simple modification of the motor mount would be all thats needed. My Legacy engine runs fine now with only the bushing added and thinner traction tires. Mine was never included in the ones returned to the factory.
Pete


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Thanks, David, Lee and Pete. Answers a lot of questions.
Do I understand that with a little work the problems on most of these could be fixed?


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

rogruth said:


> Thanks, David, Lee and Pete. Answers a lot of questions.
> Do I understand that with a little work the problems on *most* of these could be fixed?


That's the catch. Some have been returned and reportedly work fine, others not so much.

Dave Olson stated to our own Superwarp1, that the repairs performed were not up to his standards.

It's really too bad as most everyone can run small steam on their layout and Lionel doesn't make that many.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is what I know.

1. Traction tires, where wavy, uneven in thickness
2. As Pete stated front driver play with side rod excessive/missing bushing
3. Factory for some odd reason changed the gear ratio after the production samples were approved. The gear ratio change was at the lower limit of what the RCMC could be programed for/handle.
4. Dave tried new motors and axle gears which did not fix it.
5. Dave tried new traction tires, and added the bushings and it did not fix them.
6. After all the delays of trying to get parts from China over the past year leading to last Oct it was decided to send them back to China for repair.
7. As seen on the other forum, some missed the window to send their engines out. Hard luck for them.
8. Lionel failed to get the word out as they only announced the recall on the other forum. Since few knew about it, there must be a large amount of defective engines out there
9. As seen by you here and on the other forum, some were fixed, some were not.
10. Not all engines had problems, some worked right right out of the box.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

So it is not a simple fix for everyone. Thank you.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2019)

*An expired warranty does not always protect a manufacturer/supplier from future claims.* I see many holes in how this was handled in the recall. A reputable attorney representing a buyer(s) would have a field day with this one. That is only if the manufacturer/supplier and dealer(s) ignored requests for help.

I think under the circumstances, Lionel will bend over backwards to accommodate it's customers as they sure don't need any more bad publicity over the Moguls.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

rogruth said:


> So it is not a simple fix for everyone. Thank you.


Roger, if you are looking for a small engine like this the TMCC ones run perfectly and cosmetically are the same other than the fact that the Legacy engines came with blackened rods and all the TMCC ones are silver. Also the TMCC version has only two chuffs but given the small wheel diameter the chuff rate is pretty fast anyway.
The TMCC ones have Odyssey Speed control and a fan driven smoke unit. They can be had for half the cost of the Legacy engines.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> Right now Lionel doesn't even have the parts to fix these. It appears two of the issues, traction tires too thick and missing bushings are listed as NLA for both the Legacy and TMCC engines.
> 
> Why they can't source these locally, who knows. It takes me about 5 minutes to make them on a manual machine. On a CNC lathe, maybe ten seconds.
> 
> Pete


Pete, I sense a business opportunity here!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am reluctant to offer my services at this time. Trains are still a part time hobby which is now spent on my own projects.
I will continue to offer advice to anyone who has one of these. I might crank out a few bushings if someone finds theirs missing. I'd also like to confirm the part number of the MTH tires that fit these. The ones I used were unmarked in a pile I received from another forum member.
Marty might have that info. I know he has swapped out tires on some of Ro's engines.

Pete


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2019)

Pete, you are a good guy for our hobby. The MTF is very fortunate to have you as an active member. I always read your posts. These contributions are a good example.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Pete, I sense a business opportunity here!


jkhfgoyhfglou


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2019)

They should have hired Pete to fix them.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Guys, I will defer to Dave Olsen. Gary says he found other problems too that I don't know about.
One thing am willing to do is make or modify parts something that Lionel service techs are discouraged to do. Replace the part and move on. I get that as it certainly speeds turnaround in most cases.
Not so much in this case.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

To ad what Pete said above. Dave also told me no two moguls with issue were alike. The fix would work in one but not the other. I think he was pulled away from the moguls so other projects wouldn't fall behind.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

superwarp1 said:


> To ad what Pete said above. Dave also told me no two moguls with issue were alike. The fix would work in one but not the other. I think he was pulled away from the moguls so other projects wouldn't fall behind.


That's really strange.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> To ad what Pete said above. Dave also told me no two moguls with issue were alike. The fix would work in one but not the other. I think he was pulled away from the moguls so other projects wouldn't fall behind.


That seems to suggest that the manufacturing was just incredibly sloppy and ill-managed. That doesn't bode well for future products if that's the new norm! I hope they're addressing whatever happened so it doesn't happen again!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hence no more pre orders for me, even though that special Hudson at Pats’s trains is really calling me


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Given the Mogul and then the H10 fiasco, I think I'll wait until they sort things out as well. They can't keep letting stuff like this happen, someone has to step up to the plate and rein in the manufacturing house!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That seems to suggest that the manufacturing was just incredibly sloppy and ill-managed. That doesn't bode well for future products if that's the new norm! I hope they're addressing whatever happened so it doesn't happen again!


My thoughts exactly. Hard to figure out what could be the problem that would cause that.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Hence no more pre orders for me, even though that special Hudson at Pats’s trains is really calling me


The thing that Pat has going for his special-run: I'm thinking that the factory producing the new J3a is more than likely the same factory that produced the VisionLine Niagara last year. Why? Well it only seems natural that since some of the J3a's will have a tender w/water-scoop feature -- might even be the same PT Tender -- why wouldn't Lionel use the same factory?

If they do, then that should bode well for the J3a overall, a very high-profile offering in this catalog. The other angle that Pat's special-run has going for it is it's quite likely THE variation of the locomotive that most enthusiasts would want -- and Pat's offering isn't requiring purchase of any passenger cars, as is the case with the Pacemaker Set in the catalog. I noticed -- at least from a catalog illustration perspective -- those Pacemaker heavyweights are catalog'd with the mint-green window tint again, which seems standard with all of Lionel's recent heavyweight cars. 

David


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## wmcwood (Oct 31, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> To ad what Pete said above. Dave also told me no two moguls with issue were alike. The fix would work in one but not the other. I think he was pulled away from the moguls so other projects wouldn't fall behind.


I think that was a large part of the problem. The repair results where not consistent. 
I originally added bushings to my legacy Mogul and it helped but it did not solve the problem.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I think I asked this before but didn't get an answer.
I assume that Lionel is aware of the comments made about this
loco and quality control in general. I realize that there are several forums and Lionels own web site. Have they made any attempt to answer the complaints or express that they regret these events?
I have read that many will not buy BTO locos in the future. Have they let Lionel know about this directly or just complain on forums?
It would seem to me that letters, not e-mail, to Lionel might be what should be done.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

rogruth said:


> I think I asked this before but didn't get an answer.
> I assume that Lionel is aware of the comments made about this
> loco and quality control in general. I realize that there are several forums and Lionels own web site. Have they made any attempt to answer the complaints or express that they regret these events?
> I have read that many will not buy BTO locos in the future. Have they let Lionel know about this directly or just complain on forums?
> It would seem to me that letters, not e-mail, to Lionel might be what should be done.


Good question(s)... When I stopped in at the Oaks PA train show (WGHOT) earlier in January, I spoke with Meegan Unterecker at Lionel's booth. Meegan is a super lady who project manages many of Lionel's traditional product offerings (i.e., starter sets and train offerings designed to grab young kids into the hobby). She's done a great job in that position, but Lionel needs somebody like Meegan as a Director of Public Relations. She deserves an executive position in the company -- she's that good.

Anyway, I did indeed mention to her that I'd have a very difficult time pre-ordering future Lionel product at this point due to recent disappointments with Lionel passenger car products. I also made sure to complement Meegan on the great job Lionel did with the VisionLine Niagara, and she mentioned the factory which built that locomotive was a joy to work with -- while other factories and suppliers could be a bit challenging at times (i.e., passenger cars and Milk Cars, in particular). So a lot of these issues come about from differences in factory quality.

So Lionel KNOWS about these QC problems, and the folks like Meegan on the front line seem to be really top-notch people trying to do their best to address them. It's not easy for sure, but they alone can't fix everything. The level of Lionel management that really needs to get their heads on straight are those folks tasked with negotiating deals with overseas factories, and there needs to be constant monitoring of product being produced to ensure product meets the agreed-upon standards. There's no room for wishy-washy attitudes, otherwise we have the situation we're seeing now... which is essentially the tail wagging the dog. 

A lot seems to be done remotely... production samples get sent to Lionel Stateside for approval, and then things change during production. And with insufficient monitoring of the build process, things fall through the cracks and never noticed until finished product arrives in the hands of customers. Right now, Lionel management has decided to manage to the exceptions/problems rather than address the manufacturing issues. Until that culture changes, we'll continue to experience what we see now.

As nice as Lionel's latest catalog is, I was actually disappointed that it was as large as it was. Because coming off the last couple of years with all these quality issues, I don't see how the situation can improve if Lionel does nothing but order tons more product from the same factories, and these factories just rush stuff out the door. There's a TON of product in that new catalog!!! 

I told Meegan I've sworn off Lionel passenger cars right now -- both the 21-inchers as well as the 18-inch heavyweights. But it's all a numbers game. If the pre-orders for the 2019 catalog flow in like gangbusters, then I assure you nothing's gonna change.  

So we shall see....

David


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Thanks, David.
So Lionel is aware of the problems. I wonder why they don't publish a statement of some sort that lets their buyers be assured they are trying to correct problems?


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Concerning the Mogul, Lionel did keep everyone informed on the OGR forum in the beginning. The mogul was the first defective product, and Lionel tried to stay in front of it, and it was a "sticky" at the top of the OGR forum. Return shipping for the mogul and one of the switchers (can't remember which one) was covered by Lionel because of the problems.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

You had to read the OGR forum to be aware of what Lionel was doing including the deadline for returning them for repair. Owners who don't read the forum which would have included about 80% of my fellow club members would not have known about any deadlines unless their dealers informed them.
Now Lionel has a conundrum. Dealers still have these. Dealers can't get them fixed nor any buyers because Lionel doesn't have the parts and I doubt will be sending more back to the factory.
Will Lionel buy the rest back?? Only the Shadow knows.










Pete


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

In Lionel's post on the OGR forum, they stated that they had contacted their dealers about the deadline to return. Short of maybe posting on a handful of other forums, not sure what else Lionel could have done.

Dealers should have sent their stock in, and should also have at least sent a message out to their loyal customers. I place the blame more on the dealers than Lionel. Where else was Lionel going to issue a recall?

I'm not defending Lionel. I really wanted one of the loco's, so I followed all the topics concerning it very closely. On the OGR forum, Lionel even asked folks to keep the critism coming to help improve their business. Alas, it got out of hand, and a bit of history is lost. Lionel tried. They went to the largest format possible and their dealer network. Again, I think the dealers were more at fault concerning the deadline than Lionel. I would guess it cost Lionel a lot of money in shipping and repairs.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

c.midland said:


> ....The mogul was the first defective product, and Lionel tried to stay in front of it, ....


Well.... that's not quite true. The Legacy Mogul wasn't the first defective product subject to this level of scrutiny. A few years ago, the Pennsy S-2 Turbine was recalled, and the entire process was managed MUCH differently than that of the Mogul. Consumers AND dealers returned the locomotives to Lionel NC for refunds, and Lionel paid return-shipping. Done. But that didn't happen with the Mogul -- for whatever reason. 




Norton said:


> ....
> Now Lionel has a conundrum. Dealers still have these. Dealers can't get them fixed nor any buyers because Lionel doesn't have the parts and I doubt will be sending more back to the factory.
> ....


We may just be scratching the surface of a new wave of products coming from China without large inventory of spare parts. For example, the warranty remedy for last year's 21" ABS passenger cars was essentially "return them to the dealer for exchange or refund". And that direction came from Lionel NC.

Let's note... the situation regarding "spare parts" is a rather complicated one when dealing with overseas suppliers. On one hand, we're often told the Chinese don't provide spare parts directly. Instead, a certain number of finished products are disassembled in the States to create an inventory of spare parts. Yet when we look at some of the rolling stock built here in the US, the box label typically reads: made from US and imported parts.  So I guess in those cases, "parts" ARE shipped to the US for assembly here as a finished product.

From the consumer's perspective, it seems unnecessarily complicated. 





c.midland said:


> .... I place the blame more on the dealers than Lionel. Where else was Lionel going to issue a recall?
> ....


Hate to disagree. But the real problem here was nobody VISIBLY DROVE the resolution. Problems like these need a constant, authoritative voice to drive the bus from start to finish. In this case, the issue surfaced, and the stories were constantly changing. If you weren't directly affected, the sequence of events almost read like a comedy -- pretty much an example of how NOT to do something well.

Look... I don't doubt some of these engineering issues can be complicated. But I do believe the root cause here comes from the fact that Lionel Stateside doesn't stay close enough to these projects during their project life-cycle. Too many things get "handed off" to China, and then finished products magically arrive in the States months later with issues -- not produced the way they should have been. And too often, if stuff can go wrong, it does. The TMCC Mogul worked like a Swiss watch, so WHY was so much "re-engineering" done with the Legacy version? 

On one hand, we hear from Lionel's CEO that Lionel has quality inspectors onsite in China. But then we also hear some factories don't allow inspections. Well, which is it? 

Now getting back to the resolution... it understandably took a while to identify the "cause" of the problem. But whether that was ever communicated to the masses still remains questionable to this day. In fact, it's been reported that even Lionel Stateside isn't 100% sure what the factory did to the Moguls as part of "the repair". Well THAT's not good!!!  And again, it just speaks to an overall lack of communication between Lionel and the factory -- another example of a "hand off" followed by stuff magically showing up back here in the States will little communication along the way.

Let's also not forget that after the problem was reportedly ID'd by Lionel NC, the original plan was for parts to be shipped to the States. But the first set of parts shipped did NOT fix the problem as expected. So that set the clock back again as folks studied the issue further and then more parts were scheduled to arrive.

Then we heard a team of factory workers from China were scheduled to be deployed to the U.S. to do the repairs at Lionel NC after the factory met its product obligations for the year. Then suddenly, the plan was to ship all the Moguls over to China for the repair. :dunno:

Bottom line... in these modern times, it's somewhat unforgivable for folks to be kept in the dark. Working through OGR (or any online forum) isn't the ideal answer, because forum members come and go -- not everybody lives and breathes the forum every day. Some folks check out from time to time, and return weeks or months later. And then other folks simply don't participate in social media, period.

Companies don't like to broadcast major problems for the world to see. But there could have been "something" on Lionel's website to encourage Mogul owners to stay close to the recall efforts. Unfortunately, Lionel's website is useless in that regard. It's just not laid out in anyway that's useful for most everyday train issues. I hardly even visit the website -- except to view catalogs when they're first released. And when I do that, I've bookmarked the link to the catalog index, so I bypass all the gibberish on Lionel's main website. In short, the website is a disaster and needs to be re-vamped yesterday.

So are we getting the picture here? There are more than a few things wrong at Lionel these days -- that's the kindest way I can say it. And when something like the Mogul problem surfaces, it taxes the situation beyond what it's capable of handling. Enough said.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

c.midland said:


> Concerning the Mogul, Lionel did keep everyone informed on the OGR forum in the beginning. *The mogul was the first defective product*, and Lionel tried to stay in front of it, and it was a "sticky" at the top of the OGR forum. Return shipping for the mogul and one of the switchers (can't remember which one) was covered by Lionel because of the problems.


Au contraire! I really don't pre-order much, preferring to see stuff before I buy. However, I decided to order the Amtrak F40PH and the matching Cabbage unit. Both of mine had to go back as they used some sort of corrosive lubricant and the trucks and couplers were rotting away when I took it out of the box. By the time I got mine back, I had personally watched two of the F40PH units self-destruct as the ran, poor wiring smoked the RCMC main board! They were dropping like flies, others came into the shop with the same complaints! I took mine apart and made sure the wiring was routed so the flywheel wouldn't saw it in half and blow up the board. I also had to fix the number boards as they not only died, but the two units were way different in intensity, we're talking 22:1 difference in power on two supposedly identical units meant to run together. I've still had intermittent issues with the F40PH powered unit stopping at random for no reason. I'll be going inside again to see what is going on, but suffice to say I don't trust it now. If I take it to a show, I always take a backup Amtrak locomotive so I know passenger service won't be impacted. 

Then we had the Mogul fiasco, I'm just glad I didn't get in on that mess!

So, silly me, I pre-ordered the H10. You can read about that in my other thread about the H10 here. I'll be picking up another one of those for repair on Monday to see if I can revive it, it just dropped dead on the rails.

Lionel needs to right the ship and start dealing with the production quality! I love the features and performance of the Legacy stuff when it's working, but too often it doesn't work.

_It takes years to build a reputation, and just minutes to destroy it!_

Lionel's working hard to destroy their reputation, but I really hope it's not an irreversible trend!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Boy this thread is going dark fast, but you can’t deny facts. Don’t forget the 0-8-0 switcher that was advertised legacy but came with AF boards mis-programmed speed steps and went to warp speed with a few clicks of the knob. No lashing up with other legacy engines no slow speed switching in the yard without launching your train off the table. No fix for these at all.

Many engines that were lemons before the mogul


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's sad to see Lionel going this way, I really would love to see them turn this around, and I certainly hope they do! FWIW, MTH has had their issues at times, but I just think that lately Lionel has had too many "klinkers" to ignore.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

I put the Lionel TMCC Acela in the defective pile due to using "not ready for prime time" technology.


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## Pebo (Sep 27, 2015)

rogruth said:


> Thanks, David.
> So Lionel is aware of the problems. I wonder why they don't publish a statement of some sort that lets their buyers be assured they are trying to correct problems?



Exactly!
Last year I took delivery on the Vision Line Niagara and the Conrail F7 ABBA......both are flawless.......I was lucky......
However, with all the disasters last year, I am not spending a cent on BTO merchandise.
Lionel....wake up.....your high-end buying public is aggravated! What are you doing about it?

Peter


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm low end buying public but if the high end goes the low will too.
IMHO the low usually goes first.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Will this finally be the year that Lionel’s sale take a hit over all this BS


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, the Acela was another set that was really neat if it all worked, but it was so hard to get it working that it took all the shine off it. I really wanted one of those, but then the problems surfaced and I was glad I didn't bite on it.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, the Acela was another set that was really neat if it all worked, but it was so hard to get it working that it took all the shine off it. I really wanted one of those, but then the problems surfaced and I was glad I didn't bite on it.


Oh yes.... even Lionel's CEO at the time, Jerry Calabrese, joked that the company's Acela model was just a bit too much like the prototype in that regard!!!  Of course, that wasn't too funny to those who actually owned the model.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's funny to me Dave, I don't own one!


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## PRRMIKE (Oct 20, 2016)

I have been reluctant to post on this issue, because it would sound like so much 'me too'.
That said I do have one of these models. I read the posts coming from Lionel to hold onto
the models until the fall because they din't have adequate storage until the repair parts
could be shipped. Once I contacted Lionel to send in the mogul I was told I was now
2 weeks too late for the shipment to China for the repair. Are you kidding me? I received
no notification from Lionel, no notification from the dealer, Charles Ro. I now have a
model that cost several hundred dollars still in the original shipping carton, that's defective
and and manufacturer that's says, it sucks to be you. Really, what small business has the
luxury of treating a limited client base with such disdain. Passed on the H-10 and feel
lucky I did. Since Lionel has no regard for an individual client it seems the best solution is to stop the guaranteed sales of BTO. Have the dealer assume the risk of having to purchase the models. Perhaps when Lionel dumps its next defective model they will be forced listen to the dealer who has several thousand dollars with of exposure.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Mike, check a few things for me.
First place the engine on its side and move the siderod where it attaches to the rear drivers up and down (as if it was upright).
You should feel very little play.
Then do the same thing where the rods attach to the front wheels. It should also have the same amount of play. If it moves much more than you may be missing sleeves between the screw shoulder and rod.
Also put your finger on the center drivers and try to move them clockwise and counterclockwise. You should feel only the slightest amount of play. No play may mean the gears are binding. Too much play and the gears may not have good mesh, maybe even slipping.
Lastly check the traction tires are not rubbing on the brake shoes.
Report back your findings.

Pete


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Pete,
How many of those things you mention are fixable by the owner?
If I had one and they are fixable I would certainly try to fix it rather than have it sit on a shelf looking pretty but getting bad comments from me.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Many mechanical issues are repairable by the owner, some aren't. The issue with the Mogul is apparently there were a number of different issues, not all of them had the same issue. The most predominant issue appears to be the gear train issue, mating the worm to the axle gear. Several people have solved that by shimming the motor slightly to cock it a bit.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

My guess is that eventually you guys will find fixes for most of the problems and trains will run. Lionel will not be pleased and will be in more trouble that they have ever been with their buyers/users.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

rogruth said:


> Pete,
> How many of those things you mention are fixable by the owner?
> If I had one and they are fixable I would certainly try to fix it rather than have it sit on a shelf looking pretty but getting bad comments from me.


All could be done by the owner except if the shim is missing a new one has to be made. Lionel doesn't have those any more.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Looking back on all of this, the Mogul problems send a precariously ominous tone to Lionel enthusiasts. Yes, we are all excited when new catalogs are published, and folks trip over each other pre-ordering more new trains. That's just the nature of those who love this hobby so dearly.

However, the Mogul chapter also throws a sobering bucket of cold water on our catalog dreams -- not only by giving us cause to be anxious that the products coming our way are one of the good ones in the batch -- not one of the klunkers. But it also reinforces the fact that Lionel no longer stocks the breadth of replacement parts that the company was once well known for, so trains can be fixed HERE. We have now entered a time in the hobby when what we buy is to be enjoyed immediately upon purchase -- if we're lucky. Beyond that, there is no guarantee that spare parts will be available. Forget about 10+ years out. We're talking NOW or just a year from now.  

The new business paradigm is so bad now that even Lionel's senior project managers working here in the States still don't know "exactly" what Lionel's factory in China did to fix the Mogul locomotives that were shipped overseas for repair. It's such a major disconnect from common sense, that I'm truly amazed how anybody would want to throw caution to the wind and pre-order lots of trains sight unseen anymore. 

What am I missing here? 

David


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

PRRMIKE said:


> ...I now have a
> model that cost several hundred dollars still in the original shipping carton, that's defective and manufacturer that's says, it sucks to be you...


No sir, you have an option. File a credit card dispute.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

86TA355SR said:


> No sir, you have an option. File a credit card dispute.


Well that's not fair for the dealer, who at the time didn't know they were selling junk.

Call Lionel and ask for a refund.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

superwarp1 said:


> Well that's not fair for the dealer, who at the time didn't know they were selling junk.
> 
> Call Lionel and ask for a refund.


Gary - That's very true, the dealer gets left holding the bag. Hopefully the dealer network will have more pull with Lionel getting their house in order than we might.

I filed a CC claim several years ago and it worked in my favor.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Nothing will change until dealers apply heavy pressure to Lionel. 

Dealers get left “holding the bag” a few times, then they’ll quit complaining and take action. 

My statement prior assumed the OP took all appropriate action to fix the situation, and it seemed he did, which his post implied. Then again, we know what they say about assumptions...! 

Credit card disputes are a last resort. In 20 yrs, I’ve only had one and it didn’t include model trains. 

What a mess Lionel has made of this situation. Feel for you guys who are involved.


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## BFI66 (Feb 7, 2013)

Maybe, the dealers should test run all purchases before shipping them to their customers....

-Pete


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

BFI66 said:


> Maybe, the dealers should test run all purchases before shipping them to their customers....
> 
> -Pete


Wouldn't that lie with the mfr?

Car companies start their cars before they leave. Don't they??


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## BFI66 (Feb 7, 2013)

Jeff T said:


> Wouldn't that lie with the mfr?
> 
> Car companies start their cars before they leave. Don't they??



True.....but If I had a hobby store, I would make sure I was delivering to my customer a workable product....its my reputation.
I know its the manufacturer who should be ultimately responsible but if I carry their line of products, I am assuring the customer who buys it...that in my opinion this is a quality product and it works as advertized. My rep as well as the manufacturer is on the line and anything wrong with the product should be between the vendor and the manufacturer and not between the vendor and the buyer.....just my 2 cents.

-Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lionel has had mine back for a week now. I emailed them and ask for status. Surprisingly I received a email today. They stated it’s in line to be looked at. Wonder how long that line is?


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

superwarp1 said:


> Lionel has had mine back for a week now. I emailed them and ask for status. Surprisingly I received a email today. They stated it’s in line to be looked at. Wonder how long that line is?


From here to China?? Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

No that’s a good one. LOL


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## JKP (Jan 19, 2019)

Jeff T said:


> From here to China?? Sorry, couldn't resist...


That was a good one, I needed a laugh today


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

BFI66 said:


> True.....but If I had a hobby store, I would make sure I was delivering to my customer a workable product....its my reputation.
> I know its the manufacturer who should be ultimately responsible but if I carry their line of products, I am assuring the customer who buys it...that in my opinion this is a quality product and it works as advertized. My rep as well as the manufacturer is on the line and anything wrong with the product should be between the vendor and the manufacturer and not between the vendor and the buyer.....just my 2 cents.
> 
> -Pete


I agree with the idea but this could add some cost to the item. A large retailer could have several employees tied up testing stuff for many hours. Maybe only certain items from certain importers/manufacturers would need testing but how to decide?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

When Lionel made their trains in the USA they did inspect and test every item. I found an "inspected by xxxx" slip in a Post War 9" boxcar made in the '40s as well as a Mikado made in the '90s.
There are videos on youtube showing people running every engine that came off the assembly line.

Why is there never time to do it right but always time to do it again?

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> ...
> 
> Why is there never time to do it right but always time to do it again?
> 
> ...


Pete, because the game of numbers has become the business culture. The choice has been made to ship product without testing it, and then manage to the issues that show up here in the States. We'll never know the internal numbers, but clearly we can see the writing on the wall. As long as Lionel feels they can manage the exceptions, then nothing will change on the China quality end.

What I find almost more concerning though -- and I've already said this -- is the lack of parts to deal with issues that arise here in the States. That, in essence, is also Lionel's way of managing the exceptions: namely, if you don't like what you receive -- or there's something wrong with it, then just return it to the dealer for an exchange or a refund -- as we were told with the 2018 passenger cars. Lionel is basically saying they'd rather junk the problem product rather than eat the costs of fixing it, or elect to NOT even send the consumer repair parts (which really only makes sense if they flat out don't have them to send). So all that's gotta tell you something about how inexpensive the product is to make, if they're willing to take that approach on what they hope will be a relatively small number of problem products. That's a very, VERY slippery slope indeed... and I really hesitate even going there. But what else are we to conclude from that kind of warranty strategy? 

David


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

A friend who was a long time Lionel repairman, 50+ years, stopped repairing modern era Lionel nearly 15 years agi when he was told by Lionel that parts were not available for 
$1000.00 locos that were less than a year old. One thing to remember is that these locos worked when they left the factory.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Interesting process:

Lionel prints a catalog... but they may not make it and can change as they desire. They intend to make a profit and the price is not cheap. Lionel is basically an importer of “Good Stuff”

Customer orders in advance from a dealer, many of whom charge a deposit, etc and, one would assume make a profit

China makes the product and, from what we read, often with no QC or inspection on the part of Lionel. If extra parts are desired, Lionel buys extra “Good Stuff” to disassemble and use as needed. Certainly there would be a temptation to buy as few extra .”Good Stuffs” as possible to save money/increase profit

Often around Christmas... usually the week before, the majority of the “Good Stuff” arrives and is frantically distributed to drooling customers. Credit cards are charged, the customer pays, and profits are recorded. Nobody checks nothing

Soon we start reading on MTF, OGR, etc, about “How Great It Is” EXCEPT seemingly, more and more often it isn’t

On MTF and more than in the past, on OGR, the “How Great It Is Thread” turns to doggy do or a new thread is started with howls from some affected customers whose credit card bill is due/has been paid

And we then get to read in fascination as those who purchased try to obtain satisfaction. The Mogul thread is a great example.

I am totally amazed that the customer is then expected to pay costs to try to get his new “Good Stuff” fixed and is supposed to absorb the loss. The only one remaining with skin in the game is the guy who bought in good faith

And then, it has taken so long that a new catalog (in this case, several) is out and the process begins again

Somewhere something is wrong and it appears to me that:
Lionel has their profit
The dealer has his profit
The customer has junk, lost time, has spent more money

And this says absolutely nothing about the mid/long term prospects of the “Good Stuff” lasting

Who are the absolute idiots in this picture? My hand is raised BUT no more for me under this system. We can use what we have or purchase elsewhere


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

On hjgljhglgl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rogruth said:


> A friend who was a long time Lionel repairman, 50+ years, stopped repairing modern era Lionel nearly 15 years agi when he was told by Lionel that parts were not available for $1000.00 locos that were less than a year old. One thing to remember is that these locos worked when they left the factory.


We do't really know if the locomotives worked when they left the factory, that's the real sticking point!


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