# Proper way to clean older lionel engines



## Blk69

I have serveral post war lionel steam engines and a desil. All the motors were basically the same with copper brushes. I used a degreaser safe for plastic (desil has platic wheels). Cleaned everything as good as possible. Put an allpurpose on the gears and put back togather.

Both my steam engines now (2024 and 8403) now need a minute of run time to work properly. They studder on the track untill the have run for a miniute (with me helping them along) and then work good. What could be going on here? Should I have used a dielectric grease on the brushes and the rotor?

The desel is worse. It has a similar issue when cold. It was having trouble staying on the track while pulling some MTH passenger cars and I took the cover off to add some weight to the engine. It accidently fell of the table and I caught it by the reversing unit wiring. Engine only fell about 1 foot, but all the reversing wiring ripped off. Now I tried to run just the power truck of the desel and it ran ok, but seamed not to be getting power to the wheels as before. I took it appart and cleaned everything up (been about 20 hrs since last cleaning) and put back togather. Now it just studders and is not happy.

You tube didn't have anything on cleaning the lionel engines. Can anyone recommend a good web site and/or advise on cleaning.


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## tjcruiser

Blk,

I've found that my best friends in cleaning old (prewar and postwar) Lionel motors is Goo Gone, a bunch of Q-tips, and some old-fashioned pipe cleaners. The Goo Gone does a nice job of removing old, crusty grease and carbon deposits. The Q-tips and pipe cleaners (dipped in a small Goo Gone bath) allow me to get inside the "cheeks" of the motor plates, around the axle bearings, etc.

First step (which you've likely done) is to remove the motor from the loco shell.

You mentioned the "copper brushes" ... the spring-mounted brushes that ride up against the armature plate. I assume you CAREFULLY removed the brush holder plate, made sure the springs didn't pop across the workshop, and pulled the brushes (little copper discs) out of their "mount cans". Place the brushes in a little bath of Goo Gone for several minutes. Wipe 'em clean with Q-tips. Make sure the their end-face (that rides up agains the aramature plate) look flat and smooth. If not, run the face back and forth on some extra-fine-grit emery paper.

More Goo Gone with a Q-tip on the exposed three-segment armature plates. Sometimes, a very soft pencil eraser (or track-cleaning "bright boy") can help here, too. Check the armature plates for smoothness. If you see any sharp ridges or bumps, you have a problem, and these should be emery-filed smooth.

With re-assembly, lubrication is key. Lots of personal preferences here. Many like a lithium-based grease on the gears, and a very light small drop of oil on the armature and wheel bearings.

In addition to "mechanical" issues above, electrical conductivity is important, too. You want those electrons to flow smoothly, without undue resistance. You mentioned an e-unit. Tradional Lionel 3-position e-units (fwd-neutral-reverse-neutral) have a little drum inside that directs power to the armature and field via 4 little "contact fingers" that ride up against small plates on the surface of the drum disc. Often, this "finger-to-drum" interface gets caked with gunk, and/or the fingers themselves get bent out of "perfect tension". Goo Gone and pipe cleaners work well here, but you have to be very careful that you don't accidentally bend a finger out of alignment.

Check the e-unit soleniod plunger. It should ride up and down freely (when not powered). I tiny drop of light oil might help here.

Hope this all helps. If things don't tune up from there, please post some photos, and we can coach you through more specific debugging.

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

I searched "clean" in O scale and got 5 pages worth . A lot of reading. You could write a book. The important thing is what are you cleaning.
NO water by the electrical stuff. You can go with powders, fine sand paper on copper connections. Good old transmission fluid works for me. Oil and paint thinner are OK for metal parts. I don't buy a specific cleaner. I agree with using q tips. The connector brushes can be lightly rubbed on cardboard. oil can be used but should be wiped off. Excess oiling around the brushes is the common gum up problem.
The best way is to search out the parts. Make sure you remove the traces of any cleaner. Use some common sense and it should work out for you. The basic 027 manual has the age wise tips on maintenance.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I always get nervous when I babble like I did above. If I got anything right in my tips, it's only because I've learned quite a bit from you! If I got anything wrong, PLEASE feel free to jump in, correct me, and point us in the right direction. Really!

As the "circle of knowledge" extends, I'm happy to be a tiny cog in the machine. I just hope my cog is turning in the right direction, and not grinding teeth the wrong way!

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

TJ
On a question like that, the more information the better. Cleaning is debatable. It appears to be a simple question but yoiu you have to remember you clean individual pieces different ways. His problems are probably mechanical. Troubleshooting is not easy either. Don't downsize your answer. This is a discussion forum so point out the the right direction and if more questions arise handle them one at a time. Not all answers are one liners, but sometimes I get lucky.

BTW, I added some cleaning links to post number 4 in the signature. Let me know if you have a favorite.


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## Blk69

Ok, goo gone no problem. I do have some groves in my armiture plate. What grit sandpaper should I use to smooth out. I have 60 to 2000 grit (I was thinking 400 to 1000 grit should work).

As for the brushes, they looked ok to me. Should I sand them down slightly also to give everything a clean start?


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## T-Man

Remember the grooves are from years of use. This is not a common routine and will last. The copper is only so thick. I use 320 for bad grooves and finish with the 400. You can go finer to polish it up. Be careful with the soldered connections. I sand at six angles, across the plate, across the gap. Spring tension is important if they are worn , replace them. The engine will need a little break in time for the brushes to adjust. A little carboard rub on the brushes. Try to keep the old brushes ,they are harder and the replacements are softer and require more cleaning.


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## Blk69

Things are not going well!

Found out I put a brush in backwords and that is why not working well. flipped brush and ran like a champ. Decided to clean everything so would work even better.

I took the truck motor again. I used a tooth brush and lightly scrubbed everything with goo gone (nice orange smell). soaked the brushes. lightly sanded the brushes and armiture plate with 1200 grit sand paper (actually wet sanded with the goo gone). had black spots on armiture plate that would not come out. After sanding came right out. Still have shallow groves, but didn't want to go crasy sanding.

I cleaned everything off and reassembled. Got some tranny fluid on the brushes and armiture plate. Fired it up, ran great. Lasted 4 times around my 10' oval and then started humming. Now inconsitanly runs, hums under load. Runs better for a few laps if I put more oil on armiture plate.

I disassembled again and appear I may of sanded the brushes at an angle (only 1/2 the brush was clean other half dirty). Armiture is very dirty (only 10 min of run time). Assume grime is comming down motor housing from cleaning. Wiped everything off and my black spots are back on arimuter plate (buy the gaps). Assume these are actually burn marks as armiature is hot to touch after use.

Noticed now the armiture will rize slighting under load in engine housing.


Should I decomission this engine and make my desil a paper weight?


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## T-Man

Does this motor have a plastic top?
Remove all the excess oil off the copper. Keep everthing away for m the windings. The engine may be worn when you install the plastic piece before you tighten it twist it clockwise. This may help. 
With a voltmeter check to see if you have a short to the armature center pole from any of the copper plates.


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## Blk69

Yes, it has a white plastic cap. The brushes are in cap . Do not see how I can twist the cap. Let me post some pics.


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## T-Man

All you do is apply the pressure. The hole may be worn just slightly. You are just taking up the slak in the screw hole.


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## servoguy

This sounds like you are not lubing everything. Are you sure that all the bearings as well as the gears are lubed? BTW, grease is a poor lubricant because it will dry out over a few years and get hard. I have been using 20W-50 motor oil and have 45 years of experience with engine oil as a lubricant and it does not dry out. It also doesn't matter if you oil the commutator as this oil does not get stick or burn even after many months of running. Oiling the commutator is a little unconventional, but I have several engines with oil on the commutator and have not had any problem with the oil going bad. The engines really run will at low speed with the commutator oiled because of the reduction in brush friction. The brush friction is the major part of the total motor friction. If you put 3 in 1 oil or any other light machine oil on the motor or commutator, you are asking for trouble. It will dry out and get gummy. 
Bruce Baker


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## Simplexbike123

Lithium grease is good stuff, as it doesn't end up all over everything. However, as it gets used, warmed up repeatedly, ages, etc.; it tends to harden some. I have had a lot of experience with this occurrance in the past with turntables, etc. that I would completely relubricate and clean years back.

Jack





tjcruiser said:


> Blk,
> 
> I've found that my best friends in cleaning old (prewar and postwar) Lionel motors is Goo Gone, a bunch of Q-tips, and some old-fashioned pipe cleaners. The Goo Gone does a nice job of removing old, crusty grease and carbon deposits. The Q-tips and pipe cleaners (dipped in a small Goo Gone bath) allow me to get inside the "cheeks" of the motor plates, around the axle bearings, etc.
> 
> First step (which you've likely done) is to remove the motor from the loco shell.
> 
> You mentioned the "copper brushes" ... the spring-mounted brushes that ride up against the armature plate. I assume you CAREFULLY removed the brush holder plate, made sure the springs didn't pop across the workshop, and pulled the brushes (little copper discs) out of their "mount cans". Place the brushes in a little bath of Goo Gone for several minutes. Wipe 'em clean with Q-tips. Make sure the their end-face (that rides up agains the aramature plate) look flat and smooth. If not, run the face back and forth on some extra-fine-grit emery paper.
> 
> More Goo Gone with a Q-tip on the exposed three-segment armature plates. Sometimes, a very soft pencil eraser (or track-cleaning "bright boy") can help here, too. Check the armature plates for smoothness. If you see any sharp ridges or bumps, you have a problem, and these should be emery-filed smooth.
> 
> With re-assembly, lubrication is key. Lots of personal preferences here. Many like a lithium-based grease on the gears, and a very light small drop of oil on the armature and wheel bearings.
> 
> In addition to "mechanical" issues above, electrical conductivity is important, too. You want those electrons to flow smoothly, without undue resistance. You mentioned an e-unit. Tradional Lionel 3-position e-units (fwd-neutral-reverse-neutral) have a little drum inside that directs power to the armature and field via 4 little "contact fingers" that ride up against small plates on the surface of the drum disc. Often, this "finger-to-drum" interface gets caked with gunk, and/or the fingers themselves get bent out of "perfect tension". Goo Gone and pipe cleaners work well here, but you have to be very careful that you don't accidentally bend a finger out of alignment.
> 
> Check the e-unit soleniod plunger. It should ride up and down freely (when not powered). I tiny drop of light oil might help here.
> 
> Hope this all helps. If things don't tune up from there, please post some photos, and we can coach you through more specific debugging.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ


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## servoguy

In 1958 I worked in an appliance store repairing appliances. One of the things I repaired was hand mixers. They would come in with a stripped gear. The grease was all dried out and wasn't lubricating anything. The gears were nylon. This was my first experience with grease that dried out. Since then, I have seen many Lionel engines with dried out grease. I really don't know any reason to use grease. Motor oil works better and doesn't dry out. I have a friend who is an expert on lubricants, and he suggests using synthetic motor oil. I told him I would when I wasn't feeling too lazy to go to the store to get a bottle.
Bruce Baker


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## Blk69

After maybe 20 min's of run time my lionel steam engine 8304 (70's osh) wouldn't work after cleaning. I took it appart and the brushes and armature plate were crusted with a black substance. I thought I used tranny motor oil. What kinda of oil is good for the armature plate?


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## Big Ed

Blk69 said:


> After maybe 20 min's of run time my lionel steam engine 8304 (70's osh) wouldn't work after cleaning. I took it appart and the brushes and armature plate were crusted with a black substance. I thought I used tranny motor oil. What kinda of oil is good for the armature plate?



Why did you oil the armature plate?


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## servoguy

I have had good luck lubing the commutator with 5W-20 motor oil. I know this works and doesn't cause problems. I have about a year of experience with it. However, if you use something else, you are on your own as it depends on how volatile the oil is and how well it tolerates the arcing of the brushes. 

As far as oiling the commutator is concerned, it is still somewhat controversial, but I have had good luck with it, and it substantially reduces the motor friction as most of the friction is from the brushes.
BB


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