# Lionel GP7 Horn Battery



## Jim C (Jul 7, 2009)

I recently purchased a postwar Lionel GP7 engine. I had trouble getting the horn to work and found the battery does not reach the frame ground. What is wrong here?

Notice that the battery cover makes the battery sit well away from the frame "terminal". I have temporarily grounded it with wedged star washer/solder terminal combo work around but there must be something I've missed here to have it original. Anyone who could post a picture of the way it should look would be appreciated.

Thanks, Jim


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Okay so I don't have a GP -7. I would say the spring has broken off. The local shop may have one that I can get a photo. That's the best I can do. The sevice manual didn't have much help in the way of part numbers.

If you do not want a battery you can make on on board power supply to 1.5 volts converted from track voltage. The diagram is online I just haven't gotten to making one yet. hwell:

Nice picture.

battery box ebay

I did find the GP-7 battery box I do not know if it has the battery strap on it or if it comes off the frame.

You could get it serviced or get a cheep flashlight battery and use the metal strap inside to make another spring. Instead of a rivet use a small number 4 40 screw. Radio shack has them smaller # 2's


----------



## Jim C (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks T-man. Good idea. I know there are at least a couple old broken flashlights around here that I can get that negative post spring. I too checked the service manual of the GP7 posted online and didn't see anything in the parts diagram/list missing. Good to have both the idea of a better fix and confirmation that I didn't miss something real obvious.

Jim


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*More*

I checked out the dealer today. With the help of a client who owned one He found the page out out his manual. What has happened is that the nub on the frame is broken. It should be longer. The spring tension comes from the other side of the battery. So using a washer is close. Part numbers use 2338 engine number for the series. THe GP-7 threw me you need to go with engine numbers. I did find it in my blue manual.
I have a copy of the page and can email you if desired. Just post me.


----------



## PW_Lionel_Collector (Jul 13, 2009)

Hello Jim!

I'm a Postwar Lionel collector and the main engines I collect are GPs and Trainmasters. I love working on theses, and have the answer for you.

The Gp you bought most likely had battery corrosion at one point. (Where the 1950/60's batteries leaked, when left in the battery compartment too long.) This created the relay bracket to break. To fix this you need to drill out the relay bracket Assembly. Then you need to buy 2 rivets (Special insulated rivets) (Part number 3361-32) and a new relay bracket (Part number 2328-37). If the relay bracket insulator is broken, I would advise you to buy another one (Part number 2328-39). After you get all the parts, use the rivets to put the relay bracket in it's place. (Remember the head of the rivet, is on the underside of the chassis). I will post some pictures of a chassis I redid. (Relay Bracket Part). This will cost you around $6.00. You can find all of it on http://www.trainz.com/home.html. These people I would recommend, very friendly!

Hope this helps! If have any more Postwar Lionel questions, just let me know!

Thanks, Jason


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Great pictures Jason!
If I am correct the part that broke is the frame which is the left side of your picture not the relay side. Have any ideas on that?
Glad you joined. Welcome and hope to hear more from you.
My collection is limited on diesels, thank you for the post.
I read your intro and I am sure we can exhange some information.


----------



## PW_Lionel_Collector (Jul 13, 2009)

Looks to me that you are right T-Man, now that I examined it a little more! This happen because of battery corrosion. Nothing broke though. It looks like the metal broke, but the battery acid actually ate the metal. What would I do? A. I would take a very fine sand paper and sand paper the corrode part, to make a better connection. Then I would continue to wedged star washer to make a snug fit. Nothing you can really do, unless you want to buy a new frame. (About $25-$35 on Ebay).

T-Man what does your collection mostly have? Steam engines? Most of my collection is Postwar diesels (Trainmasters, switchers, GP's, ABA, AA, AB). I have some steam engines, but my real passion is in diesel engines.

Exchanging information would be fun/helpful. (I love to help people.)


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

New England has been a good area for Poatwar Lionel. I have been collecting for years. AS a result of chance I have found mostly the common stuff. The 2026 with variations od 2016 and 2018 and 2036. The 2026 was in a box with the Marine 212 diesel and some red flats. I have a 2333 and a 2056. The F-3 was a mess and took years to fix it. Years ago I lost a 224 in an auction to a guy with a gold mastercard. It has only been recently I won one on ebay. Another early purchase was an 1130 with a babe Ruth, caboose and gondola. The plastic shell is beat up but runs like a champ. A favorite. Ebay has spoiled me and I got the 2034 variation. These are well worn items most were straight out of the attic after years of storage. I recently refurbed a 3650 searchlight car. The last box I had to repaint all the trucks the rusted so bad. I showed the orange caboose under Basket case in the general thread.

On Your next repair by all means take pictures and post a thread.
I normally use photobucket and select from there to post. It saves time in reducing the image. The black steam engines are difficult to get a good picture. 

Prewar has been addicting too. I have a 248, 249E,1666. The 249e was a gift from friends I do HO work for. ALso I have gotten in home project electronics.
Back in the 80's I bought some HO so I do relate to the other members occasionally.

Trainmaster? is that a fancy Atlas with sound? 
The only sound I have is a Marx whistle station and a chug tender from the 80's. I still need an 8141 engine to run it and haven't figured out the way it makes contact for the chuff.Something to do with the rods.
There are plenty of posts for you to search too.
Let me know what you think.


----------



## PW_Lionel_Collector (Jul 13, 2009)

Sounds to me that you have a very nice collection of trains! I never really got into the Prewar trains, I always stayed from Postwar Lionel to modern day. What can I say, I'm 17, and I'm surprised I like Postwar trains so much! (Most of the newer generation likes the new trains. I like them for their details, but they run like crap compared to the old engines. They are also made in China!!!! Come on people!!) And yes Ebay has helped me gather engines faster for my collection! Along from Gp's I also collect the aba's, abba's and ab's. Most of my aba's are newer, but not too new. I don't buy any trains that have "can motors or traction tires"! Basically all trains I own have "magnetic-traction and pull motors". The aba's are from 1980's and early 1990's. I have a 8370 NYC that's a abba with 12 cars. (So Long!) Also have a 8480 UP that's a aba with 8 cars. (Both from 1980's.) The newer 1992 aba is a 11903 Atlantic Coast Line (ACL). This engine is a beauty and rare!

Whats a Trainmaster?
Well If you go to ebay and look under Postwar Lionel, look theses numbers up: 2321, 2322, 2331, 2341.

Theses big engines are with two pull motors. (Love theses motors, there indestructible!!!!! Even if they have taken the hardest beating, there's always a way to fix them.) They have no sound, except a Postwar horn and the track there running on.

If you want, you can look up small chunk of my collection on Ebay. Look under Lionel then 1945-1969. (Postwar Period) Hopefully this shows you what I mostly collect.

Type theses numbers in the search button (One at a time.)
41
42
51
53
56
57
58
59
2028
2321
2328
2329
2331
2337
2338
2339
2341
2346
2348
2349
2359

Hope this gives you an idea of what I collect. You can also go to http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll68/Postwar_Lionel_Collector/ . There I have parts of my collection on the web. If stop by, don't forget to go to Postwar album!

Jason


----------



## Jim C (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks for helping guys. Sorry for the slow post response but we were away visiting family.

When away, my daughter showed us a great new train museum in Greeley, Colorado.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

Hi everybody. This my first post. I found this while online looking for info on the Lionel gp7. First off, I'm new to Lionel. I mostly do HO scale. I was lucky enough to be given a box of Lionel stuff yesterday. It's the original box labeled 1955 Lionel and has the individual boxes for several of the cars, as well as instructions and a nice, clean, transformer. The engine is a 2328 Burlington. It runs, but seems a bit weak to me. The other problem is the rust. It appears that a battery was left to leak and corrode the inside. The whole ...um..."middle thing"...is rusty. (I don't know what it's called....is it the E-unit?) The bracket that supports it is barely hanging on. The entire plastic cover is gone, but it looks like I can get one easily from ebay. 

So my question is, "What next?" I don't know what to do about the rust...do people strip/repaint these things or keep it original? Should I oil and grease the motor/gears? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Welcome Burlington you lucky dog. It is rare to find a set old untouched from that era. I enjoy finding the Box and cleaning the contents. So I can help you. 










Ok I borrowed the picture from Postwar Collector. From left to the right is the horn, eunit and and relay for the horn.

First is to make an electrical diagram of the connections. The engine runs so the eunit is good. You may want to remove anthing in the way to get rid of the rust. I just use a Wallmart grey primer and gloss black to paint. You should sand down all the ruff spots a little Bondo scatch putty may help cover divets.

For the motor use a lithium grease for gears and any oil for the spinning armature. The three metal plates should be clean and smooth on the armature. A fine sandpaper of 320 or more to clean it. Get the deep gouge marks out. Do not ruin the soldered joints and any further cleaning is done with an eraser. The sandpaper is a onetime deal to help the armature. Check for loose axles to see if the bearings are worn. 

Poor performance could be track rust, gunk on the pickup wheels or loose pins in the track. If you have under 95 watts an older engine likes the extra power the little 45 is only good for new. So run the engine,run run run keep oiling to a minimum. I would suggest keeping the engine forward only and bypass the eunit. If the drum is old and breaks it will fry the fields. 

You need to take care of the frame, motor, eunit, and relay. The motor and eunit are discussed in detail in other threads.
How that for a start.

I believe the relay is isolated from the frame at the bracket base.
The plastic cover hold the battery.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

Thanks for the advice. To my surprise, simply wiping the track down with a little WD40 did wonders. I was hesitant to use it, because I never use it with HO, but other sites said it would be ok. The loco runs fast and strong now. I also figured out that it has O27 track and not standard O. I think my plan for now is to get the rust under control and fix the support for the horn relay. The biggest problem is that it's too much fun! All I want to do is run it even though I've only got a small oval of track set up. 

I do have some other Lionel stuff that I haven't mentioned. I am lucky to have my father's huge set from when he was a kid. A ton of track, several pieces of rolling stock, accessories...let's just say it's a lot of stuff. The problem is, it was abused by three boys in the 50's, then left to rot in an old orange crate in the corner of a garage. The track is rusty, the transformer is...scary looking, everything's dirty, scratched, broken, etc. It's a terrible shame. 

The loco is a heavy 675 steam engine. The problem is it doesn't run. I assume it should run on the same type of track/power supply that the diesel does? When I set it down and turn up the power, absolutely nothing happens. Any thoughts on that one? I'm not even sure how to take it apart. There's a screw on top, but there seems to be more holding it together. I didn't want to dive in too quick and mess it up if there's a chance to save it.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The 675 is a beaut!!!! Baldwin drive wheels are tops!! The closest I have is a 224. Very similar. Try to look under the engine and move the eunit drum or play with the lever. Does it Humm?

I did lose a motor to a bad e unit so beware, you do not want to cook it.

Description takes time so I will try to find some relevant posts.

As far as a dirty box goes take a look at my photobucket under Lionel. A rat chewed one up. But they all cleaned up.
Rusty trucks are not a problem.

The spot light car came from a grubby box so take a look. That's what I do here is find a box and go through it with pictures to show what can be done. So finding a box has stuck a nerve with me.

You are right it is fun!

Make one fast attempt to get the 675 going if not i will do a thread on the 224 How to: open and test.
Running the diesel engine is good It must be in good condition. That worries me most about threads since I cannot see and judge the engine.

The Lionel Tune up shows how to clean a basic car up.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

I'll tinker with the 675 later. I'm not at home right now. I really think the diesel would be in excellent shape (inside) if not for a leaky battery. It's a real shame. All the rest of the stuff in that box was nice. 

One quick question...is there anything that can be done to preserve the power cord on the transformer? This one isn't cracked or frayed or anything, but it doesn't really feel as flexible as it should be. Is it just better to replace it? Otherwise the transformer looks brand new.

Thanks for your advice.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Just solder a wire from a lamp shade or an appliance. The handles are spring clipped and should pull off. A couple of screws to remove the cover. Good as new.

The 520 thread covers the e unit and armature cleaning.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

So after further examinatin of the rust/corrosion damage on the 2328, I came up with a new plan. The horn relay bracket crumbled, so I need a new one. The whole frame around it is pitted and needs repainting. The horn relay is kind of carefully posed on the remains of the bracket now. 

So I looked at ebay and several other parts sources. For about the same price as a new bracket, insulator, paint, etc... I found a repainted, solid frame. It's got all the brackets and is burlington red. Now my plan is to just "swap" all the parts onto the new frame when it arrives. Everything but the frame on my loco seems fine, so I think this will work. Any thoughts? Am I oversimplifying this? I feel like this is going to work really well. Then I can strip, clean, and refinish the original frame someday, and maybe use it on another project.

I had a hard time deciding what to do. The question in my mind was "Do I keep as much original paint/parts as I can, or do I go for optimal appearance and performance?" I finally decided that replacing the rusty mess would only be an improvement. I'm not really concerned about value, but knowing what the purchaser of this set paid for it I don't want to mess it up. Any thoughts about original parts vs. clean parts? Keep in mind I'm new to Lionel, and I feel like it's too important to mess up. Maybe I'm overthinking it.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Sounds like a great plan. I was turned off with part prices for loco's so I bought whole Loco's for parts. They ran better than the ones I was trying to fix. All they we doing was bidding against me, to break them down for parts.
So go with it.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

The new frame arrived today. Within minutes, I was able to get everything swapped out and it's up and running strong. Part of me hates removing the original frame, but the rust was just too extreme. 

Everything's fine now except the horn. I'm not getting anything. I put in a brand new battery, and cleaned the terminals. When I push the switch to the horn setting, the loco speeds up a little and the light seems to brighten, but no sound. Any suggestions?


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I haven't dived into horn troubleshooting. Basically a DC pulse is fed into the line. That is why the speed increases. The relay needs to operate, opens or closes. You can try to test the horn with the 1.5 dry cell and bypass the relay. SOme horns need to be adjusted.
GLad the new frame worked out.
I wll do a little more research on it in the tech manual. 
The transformer has to be turned up high to generate the DC needed to trip the relay.
I have a relay but I never tested it. I still need to get a horn.

The first picture shows the contact. It is normallly open and upside down from the picture. The second picture has a side piece for three electrical connections. More description to follow.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

Yep, that looks familiar. Is the gap on the left side of the first picture supposed to close?


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

Oh no! Now I'm stuck in neutral! The e-unit still buzzes, and I can see it drop down and pick up the teeth of the wheel. I'm trying not to panic. Any suggestions? I'm not entirely sure how they work.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

Okay, sorry to post three in a row, but I just had a D'oh! moment. The e-unit is fine. I failed to notice that another wire had broken loose from the motor. Problem solved.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

burlington77 said:


> Yep, that looks familiar. Is the gap on the left side of the first picture supposed to close?


Yes, but I am still trying to get the electrical figured out The lug is the ground to the frame the red wire is the pos feed from the e unit. Can you rell me the rest? The diagrams don't helpbut I will try to keep looking.
I do have a whistle tender that works with the same type of relay.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

I'll have to look it over to figure it out. The weekend is over, so I may not get much time for the next few days. I'm just glad it's working again.


----------



## burlington77 (Sep 28, 2009)

The battery cover arrived in the mail today. My locomotive is complete! I still don't have the horn working, but I honestly don't care. It runs great. I'm going to focus on fixing up and cleaning some rolling stock and accessories now.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Realy Exposed*

Shown is a relay from a 2333. I can't figure out the purple lead that goes to ground.
The red is from the pos lead on the e unit that feeds the relay coil and grounds through the frame.
The pos is from the battery attached to the case.
The battery grounds to the frame.
The green is the lead from the battery that grounds the battery after contact is made.
I compared the diagram from the service manual to the actual relay. I guess there is more to do.


----------

