# Technical turnout-related questions



## scanssystems

Hello, guys! I'm new to hobby but I'm learning very hard. Sometimes it is not easy to find an answer to particular question. Newbie question. 
So.. I opened this thread to ask all turnout-related questions because this is the hardest topic for me.
So far, _*is it necessary to have turnout decoder?*_  For example, I have Peco Insulfrog turnout, Peco Side Mounting Turnout Motor and Atlas switch control.

Thank you very much for your help!


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## waltr

> is it necessary to have turnout decoder?


If you mean a 'Stationary DCC Decoder' then the answer is no. The decoder is to control the turn-out motor by a DCC command from either the hand controller or a computer interface.
The turn-out motor can be activated by manually operated electrical switches. 
Try googling "turnout motor control" for more info.

In addition, it is not even necessary to have a motor on a turn-out. There are a number of different way to 'throw' a turn-out.

As a beginner there is a lot to learn. Be patiently, google, read then ask questions.


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## scanssystems

Thank you for respond!
Actually I do a lot of Google (and also reading) and sometimes it is useless. That's why I'm here. That's why forums exist for. 
I'm sorry for stupid question, but what is the purpose of 'Stationary DCC Decoder' which is used for turnouts(for example)?


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## Brakeman Jake

The usual way to throw turnouts is to have manual switches at different places around a layout or on a specific control panels,depending on personal modeler's preferences.Having stationary decoders allows modelers using DCC to throw turnouts from their handheld throttles.


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## waltr

Its never a stupid question!

How much do know about DCC? If this is still a mystery then it is hard to describe a decoder. I gave you the short answer assuming that you know what DCC is.

In DCC (Digital Command & Control) all commands are send on a common carrier (which is normally the track power) or bus. So a decoder is required to 'decode' the device's address and the command sent. The most commonly used decoders are in locomotives and are called "Mobile DCC Decoders" since a loco moves. For controlling objects that do not move (turnouts, crossing gates, building lights, etc) then a "Stationary DCC Decoder" is used.

Maybe these can help:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm


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## NIMT

Stationary DCC decoders are electronic switches. 
They can be used to activate a turnout switch machine. They can be used to turn on lights in a building! They can be used to turn on motor that runs an conveyor belts.
Almost anything is possible with decoders they are a programmable electronic switch, you can also use mobile DCC decoders if you would like to use the motor controls to run a motor at a variable speed!
You can also use DCC Sound decoders to give your buildings sound! I use one to give my saw mill sound, and another to give my gravel crusher sound too!


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## scanssystems

waltr said:


> ...For controlling objects that do not move (turnouts, crossing gates, building lights, etc) then a "Stationary DCC Decoder" is used.


But you said I can use turnout without St. decoder. What is the point to use(have) the decoder for turnout if I can do it w/o decoder? 

*Brakeman Jake*, thank you for response! But I wish to try myself for electronic throw. Manual is too simple.


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## xrunner

scanssystems said:


> But you said I can use turnout without St. decoder. What is the point to use(have) the decoder for turnout if I can do it w/o decoder?


The point is: remote control via a computer or handheld controller. If you have decoders for all your turnouts you don't have to get up and go to the individual turnout to switch it manually. You send a command while kicking back in your Lazy Boy...


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## scanssystems

Looks like I got it. So, I can use







to switch manually each one or I can install st. decoder and operate all my switches through my DCC commander. Is it right?


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## Brakeman Jake

You got it right.There are in fact three ways to throw a turnout,just to reduce the possible confusion.The most simple one is throwing the turnout manually,no motor or solenoids,by reaching the turnout with your hand and simply move the turnout.
The second one is having it remotely thrown (the TO has some powering device) by manually moving a distant switch that can be anywhere along the layout or on an organized turnout control panel so you don't have to move to do so.

Then there's the high tech way where your handheld throttle can also control your turnouts on top of controlling your trains.With these,you can even have the layout computer controlled with the appropriate software.Hope this is clear enough.


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## Brakeman Jake

OK...what I'm going to say here is just an opinion,others may differ and I'd be glad to hear their comments.

I'm actually building my layout and I have no plan to install any stationary decoder at all.I am the "hands on" type operator so will never have computer control on my layout,so I don't feel there's a need for these decoders.My biggest reason though is price...if you have a fair amount of turnouts on the layout (wich is my case),having a bundle of stationary decoders does indeed increase the costs too fast to my taste.
Another point I'd like to hear other modelers on is that I believe that you have to set specific adresses to all these decoders.Now having to remember all these adresses to dial them into your handheld,sometimes in a hurry to avoid derailments,doesn't seem like much fun to me.Flicking a switch is simple and fast.On the other hand,remembering these adresses is no more of a problem if you go the computer control route.
Something I don't know,do the handhelds(DT400R for one) have to be tethered to dial stationary decoders just like when dialing locos.If such is the case,then the stationary decoders aren't worthed anything to me.


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## scanssystems

Brakeman Jake said:


> You got it right.There are in fact three ways to throw a turnout,just to reduce the possible confusion.The most simple one is throwing the turnout manually,no motor or solenoids,by reaching the turnout with your hand and simply move the turnout.
> The second one is having it remotely thrown (the TO has some powering device) by manually moving a distant switch that can be anywhere along the layout or on an organized turnout control panel so you don't have to move to do so.
> 
> Then there's the high tech way where your handheld throttle can also control your turnouts on top of controlling your trains.With these,you can even have the layout computer controlled with the appropriate software.Hope this is clear enough.


Thank you, Jake! Just on time! :thumbsup: But I really like the way #2.
Also I wonder about one *waltr's* moment:


> it is not even necessary to have a motor on a turn-out...


 so how can I switch powered turnout w/o motor?


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## xrunner

Brakeman Jake said:


> My biggest reason though is price...if you have a fair amount of turnouts on the layout (wich is my case),having a bundle of stationary decoders does indeed increase the costs too fast to my taste.


You don't have to have a separate decoder for every turnout, if some of your turnouts are always operated together. You can wire several up to a single decoder output if needed, at least on the model I have you can (Digitrax DS52). It can fire off 4 Kato coils at a time, I have one output hooked up to my Double Crossover (which has 4 coils inside) and it works just fine.



> Another point I'd like to hear other modelers on is that I believe that you have to set specific adresses to all these decoders.Now having to remember all these adresses to dial them into your handheld,sometimes in a hurry to avoid derailments,doesn't seem like much fun to me.Flicking a switch is simple and fast.On the other hand,remembering these adresses is no more of a problem if you go the computer control route.


A computer screen is the way I'm going to go, but you could still just make a picture of your layout with addresses for reference. Nobody would want to remember all the addresses.



> Something I don't know,do the handhelds(DT400R for one) have to be tethered to dial stationary decoders just like when dialing locos.


No, it can control the turnouts untethered.


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## waltr

scanssystems said:


> Thank you, Jake! Just on time! :thumbsup: But I really like the way #2.
> Also I wonder about one *waltr's* moment: so how can I switch powered turnout w/o motor?


The way Jake explained:


> The most simple one is throwing the turnout manually,no motor or solenoids,by reaching the turnout with your hand and simply move the turnout.


This is how I do most of my turn-outs. Simple and cheap, no motors, no wiring.


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## scanssystems

Aaa.. got a catch.  Thank you!


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## scanssystems

Another question is... Insulfrog or electrofrog? There are so a lot of topics about them but I want to hear your thoughts, my friends. I'm going to buy insul, but people says plastic frog makes short and loco loose power. Is it true?
I don't really want to deal with tons of wires for electrofrog.


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## sstlaure

For any turnouts that you can easily reach - I use caboose industries manual ground throws. They are about $3-4 each - they do a great job of keeping the points flush on the correct rails in the direction thrown.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/search...rds=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search

Turnout control can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Anything from manual control with your finger to touch screen interface via a laptop computer is possible these days. All depends on how you want to run your layout and how much of a budget you have to work with.


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## Brakeman Jake

Insulfrog turnouts definitely WILL NOT create shorts.The drawback of Insulfrog turnouts is that having a plastic frog means that there is a short length of track that has no power in it.This will only show with either very short locos or locos that have poor power pickup.Other than this Insulfrog turnouts will do the job just fine without the complexity of "frog powering",wich is the "bullet proof" way to install turnouts.


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## scanssystems

Look here:
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/fixing-short-in-peco-insulfrog.html

Do we have to do it?


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## sstlaure

Personally....no - you don't have to do it, but doing it does reduce the possibility of a short occurring. (Seems like a remote possibility in an insulfrog turnout.) I run Atlas Mark IV turnouts and don't have this issue - the Pecos are supposed to be even better.


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## scanssystems

Alright. I got it. Definitely insul.
Thank you!


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## scanssystems

And the most interesting and exited question. HOW TO WIRE TURNOUT? I know, exists a lot of schemes and prints but I don't understand them. I don't know how to read them.
Can anyone explain by words? (For example: take this, connect here etc.)

P.S.
I guess this is my last question about turnouts. I don't have any more right now.


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## Massey

You dont have to worry about anything special with wiring an insulated frog turnout. Left to left and right to right.

Massey


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## Brakeman Jake

I'm not saying it can't happen but it never did to me,so I believe you do have a one in thousands chance it ever does to you.However,I suggest you print this page and keep it as a reference so you'll know what to do,should it happen.

I do have a theory...I suspect that might more likely happen with older heavily used locos.Why?Loco wheels normally have slightly angled wheels that I believe have no chance of touching both rails as shown.On the other hand,heavily worn wheels have a tendancy to become flatter as wear takes metal off the circumference of the wheel near the flange.I may be wrong here...it's what I said...a theory.


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## scanssystems

Massey said:


> You dont have to worry about anything special with wiring an insulated frog turnout. Left to left and right to right.
> 
> Massey


I would accept your answer in case if I asked "How to connect commander and track?". Yes, in this situation left to left and right to right. But in my case I have commander, track, motor and switch controller. A lot of stuff, I can say.


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## NIMT

"How to wire your equipment" is way a way to open statement!
The wiring depends on what kind of equipment you have, Atlas is wired different than Kato, Peco is different than Bachmann, some will work together some wont!


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## scanssystems

Alright, I have Atlas tracks, insul Peco switch, Peco switch motor(on top of table), Atlas switch control and Atlas Master DCC commander center.


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## NIMT

Do you have another power supply?
The Atlas Commander has no provisions for running switch machines!


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## scanssystems

Why don't you like it??? It's normal system! It can even operate switches itself! (through st.decoders) But in my case I have Atlas switch control. I showed picture before.

Here's my system:


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## NIMT

I didn't say that I didn't like it??? I just said there is no place or output to power your switch machines! Your going to need another power supply for the switch machines to work!
Now that you bring it up that control system is so out dated it not funny, I had one new back in 1990, they haven't changed one bit! 2 bit address 3 function controls, and extremely hard to program decoders with it! It will not run most of the modern decoders.


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## scanssystems

Hold on a second, you want to say it is not gonna work?? Damn it! 
I thought if it says DCC it will work..  Is it so old? hwell:
What's wrong with that stuff?

Can you suggest any reliable one up to $100? I'm real newbie..


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## scanssystems

P.S.
What is about Bachmann Trains E-Z Command Digital Command Controller?


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## Brakeman Jake

I'm sorry but I'll likely turn your sun off a bit.This is a situation I've seen time and time again while I was in R/C and that I still see in model railroading.There's a rule that nobody can ignore when buying whatever item in whatever field...you get what you pay for...plain and simple.

There are different types of buyers...you have the ones who want performance out of their purchases and are aware that quality has a price,so will chose items amongst the best they can find and guess what?It often comes cheaper on the long run.

Then you have those who are looking for the lowest possible prices thinking they'll get comparable items.Sorry,this doesn't exist.The reality is that if a product costs much less,it is likely worthed much less also.

For the price range you stipulated,I don't think you'll find any system that will grant you with all the functions you may desire now and in the future.At this price you're speaking of bottom line non expandable systems,whatever the brand as there are others.You can't afford the big system now...then go for a starter system from a reputable brand.It'll cost you a little more than you'd wish but will be expandable so that you can make it a big system as time goes on and budget allows.I understand you're a little short on budget so you can't afford to throw your money away.Ask the guys on this forum (before buying preferably) and they'll steer you towards "real" economy through reliable performance.


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## scanssystems

Brakeman Jake said:


> I'm sorry but I'll likely turn your sun off a bit.This is a situation I've seen time and time again while I was in R/C and that I still see in model railroading.There's a rule that nobody can ignore when buying whatever item in whatever field...you get what you pay for...plain and simple.
> 
> There are different types of buyers...you have the ones who want performance out of their purchases and are aware that quality has a price,so will chose items amongst the best they can find and guess what?It often comes cheaper on the long run.
> 
> Then you have those who are looking for the lowest possible prices thinking they'll get comparable items.Sorry,this doesn't exist.The reality is that if a product costs much less,it is likely worthed much less also.
> 
> For the price range you stipulated,I don't think you'll find any system that will grant you with all the functions you may desire now and in the future.At this price you're speaking of bottom line non expandable systems,whatever the brand as there are others.You can't afford the big system now...then go for a starter system from a reputable brand.It'll cost you a little more than you'd wish but will be expandable so that you can make it a big system as time goes on and budget allows.I understand you're a little short on budget so you can't afford to throw your money away.Ask the guys on this forum (before buying preferably) and they'll steer you towards "real" economy through reliable performance.


Thank you very much. You right and I agree with you. But we always hope for chance.. For example I bought today 3 brand new Walther's passenger cars for... $25 total. We always have a chance to get a deal. That's always what I'm looking for. 

Alright guys, I need starter system from a reputable brand. Any suggestions?
P.S.
I don't need sounds right now. My decoder and loco are soundless.


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## xrunner

Qft -



brakeman jake said:


> you get what you pay for...plain and simple.


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## Massey

My preferance is Digitrax, and the Zephyr or Zephyr Extra set is not much more than your budget (ok it is like 2x more but still less than a mainline set). The Zephyr is a full command station (not a limited one), booster and throttle all in one neet little package. The Extra has a few more features and can be bought for a little over $200. The future of the Zephyr is not in question, because as you add to your layout you can use other digitrax equipment with the Zephyr. If you end up getting the top of the line set (super chief) the Zephyr is still not obsolete it can still be used as a booster and throttle. Not all starter sets can make that claim.

Massey


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## scanssystems

If found one here : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digitrax-ZEPHYR-DCC-Starter-3-0-power-supply-1047-/320678480365?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4aa9ed49ed#ht_820wt_1163

So, if I buy this one I will be all set for the begging?


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## NIMT

Digitrax Zephyr! Link here


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## scanssystems

I like this one. Looks very nice!
Not really expensive. Do you suggest me to buy this one? Is everybody agree about performance and value?


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## Massey

I cant for some odd reason view the digitrax website at work but I trust that Sean sent you to the right place. E-bay is also off limits for me at work so I will have to leave it to the others here to give you guidance on the link you posted.

Massey


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## scanssystems

Massey said:


> I cant for some odd reason view the digitrax website at work but I trust that Sean sent you to the right place. E-bay is also off limits for me at work so I will have to leave it to the others here to give you guidance on the link you posted.
> 
> Massey


Yes, I checked it out. Looks awesome. Better than Atlas in any way.


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## Brakeman Jake

Absolutely,the Digitrax Zephyr,wether the newer Extra(DCS51) or the older(but not obsolete)DCS50 are great sets to start with.Though they do lack the extra power of the bigger system,they are more than enough for your present needs and possibly for years to come.

You can expand them with other Digitrax components at will as your budget allows,that is if you wish to.The Extra has a few features that the DCS50 doesn't have like 28 functions while the DCS50 has 10 for instance,wich is way much more than you do need now.The beauty of the DCS50 is that you eventually add a DT400 handheld and you'll have all the functions you may dream of without throwing the Zephyr away.That's one example of expandability.

If you really have to save,you might take a look on Ebay as Zephyrs do show up occasionally.However,I recommend new...you'll have all the documents that come with the set and best of all...a warranty.


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## NIMT

scanssystems,
Yep 100% good to start, 100% upgradeable in the future!


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## scanssystems

Alright guys, got point! Thank you very much! :thumbsup:
I sent mine back and looking for this one right now. Probably will buy on the end of the week. Definitely will buy a new one, no more used stuff. Two times bought - two times returned. Waste of money. 

Do I need to buy any additional supplies?  For example wires, etc? And what kind of switch button (for remote turnouts) do you suggest to buy along with that system?


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## Brakeman Jake

You will indeed need other supplies but to get an appropriate answer,other questions require answers like:
1)is the layout wired?How much of it is if so?
2)What will be the turnout motors used?Make,type or even model number.
3)Want your turnouts DCC operated(stationary decoders required) or only remotely thrown?
4)What brand of turnouts?Brand and types.
5)I don't remember reading this info:what scale?
6)Is the layout large?Breaking it down in power districts may be a good thing.

Be aware that you are only starting and that other investments will be required as you go along.But we,on this forum,will do our best so that you get the most of every penny you put into it.


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## scanssystems

Thank you for taking care of my investments. It is so nice of you! Thank you, guys! :thumbsup: It is never bad to save a buck.

Let's answer the questions. I don't have my stuff right now with me but I ordered and it is on the way to me except DCC electronics.

1. Wire will be connected to the terminal track. Just one connection. Do I need more?.. I'm confused about question. 
2. Turnout motor is Peco Side Mounting Turnout Motor - PL-11
3. I want remote thrown.
4. Peco Streamline Code 83 No.6 Insulfrog Turnout - Nickel Silver - Right Hand
5. HO
6. For beginning I will build an oval (I ordered tracks for exact shape). Size is 10'x3'


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## Brakeman Jake

1)The usual way to supply power to tracks is to supply feeders every three to six feet lengths of track to ensure reliability.Track does have some resistance so that you may notice locos slowing somewhat as they get further from the power connections.So having many connections corrects this.

"Buss wires" (usually 14 ga.)run underneath the layout following the track and feeders(smaller gauge wires) carry current from the buss wires to the track every three to six feet.Feeders are soldered to the outside of the tracks.

You may be able to get away from this by soldering every track joints.Joiners will get the job done when new but have a tendency to lose conductivity as temperature changes and humidity take their toll.

2)I do not know what are the power requirements of the PL-11 turnout coils.You may find out that you'll need a Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU) like for PL-10's.Manufacturer's instructions will tell you what you need to power them,until then......
Whatsoever,you'll need a MOMENTARY SPDT switch for everyone of you turnouts.Single Post Double Throw switches can be found in any electronics store.IMPORTANT...yours need to be "momentary" types,meaning they have a spring that self centers the switch.Turnout coils need only short impulses of current,constant current will fry them in seconds.Another option is to use push buttons,one for each direction of throw(or two per turnout).


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## Massey

I agree with most of what Jake has said but I have a couple of corrections, Sorry Jake.

The turnout control, unless you are trying to thow several switches at once with a relay type switch motor you will not need a CDU. Relay type switch motors do need momentary controls to keep from burning them up but you can achieve this with one DPDT (Double Pole Double Thow) switch and one pushbutton per switch. (see schematic below) Jakes method takes 2 toggles or push buttons per switch which can add up to alot of money.

Soldering every track joiner may sound good but it is also a recipe for trouble. Heat and humidity are going to change the conditions of the layout almost daily, you need places for your track to be able to expand and contract or it will pull right up off the roadbed. I usually leave a gap every few feet (small one of course) and where I leave a little gap I do not solder so the track has room to grow as it gets hot or shrink as it cools. This has never failed me yet. Feeders every 3-6' depending on the size of the layout is about right. If you are doing a loop of track using terminal tracks as the feed then place one at the far point and supply power to that as well. Terminal tracks are usually only found with a roadbed system such as Unitrack or Ez-Track, is this what you are using? If so do not solder the rail joiners since you will never be able to take it all apart properly.

The relay type of switch motors must be powered with 12-24VAC in order for them to function properly. Most mid to upper level power packs can supply this power for you. I am using a Bachmann Spectrum Magnum pack to power my 4 relay switch motors and it does the job just fine. It puts out 18VAC which is more than enough for my relay motors to work properly. The switches are all wired in parallel.










Massey


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## waltr

I bought the Digitrax Zephyr DCC50 system about 7 years ago due to upgradability of the Digitrax system. Later added a UT2 (now discontinued but replaced by the UT4) so I could control two engines at a time. It still works even with the latest sound decoder's from Soundtrax. I typically have four sound equipped engines powered with up to two running. If I ever need to run more engines then I'll just add a booster.

I've had a number of 'temporary layouts', Atlas section track, flex track & PECO turnouts just connected with rail joiners and not fastened down. Feeding the power into one place has worked well if care is taken to ensure the rail joiners are tight (squeeze the joiner with pliers).
I do recommend doing this to learn how everything works before starting on a permanent layout. At least you get the run your trains.

One more suggestion. If you don't have a DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) buy one. They are inexpensive but indispensable when doing any electrical work and/or troubleshooting.


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## Brakeman Jake

Massey,we all got different ways to do things and most are equally good.However,I'd still use your diagram but I'm curious to know what is the purpose of the push button switch when a single momentary SPDT switch can get the job done.I've also seen some use a pair of push button switches instead...modeler's choice.

I believe I didn't say it right but I always used a single momentary SPDT switch per turnout without any problem.I did speak of the possibility of needing a CDU,as I don't know what the PL-11 needs to throw correctly.I've installed PL-10's,wich need a good punch to throw correctly,wich the CDU gives.The other advantage of the CDU is that it won't recharge should a switch decide to stick,thus protecting the turnout coils.

And I agree with you as I'm not a fan of soldering joints.I may be wrong,but I have a definite impression that the OP wants to get away with as little wiring as possible,so this seemed to me as a reasonable option,though much short of perfection.Since it's not a huge layout......


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## scanssystems

OMG! So a lot of new words!  Lots of them I never heard. I guess I'm in trouble.. Here's a lot of stuff! 



> Whatsoever,you'll need a MOMENTARY SPDT switch for everyone of you turnouts.


Can I use regular Atlas 56 Switch Control Box instead of MOMENTARY SPDT switch? It is not momentary but still switch. 



> Terminal tracks are usually only found with a roadbed system such as Unitrack or Ez-Track.


What's about Atlas 554 Code 83 9" Straight Terminal Track?

Massey, I don't understand you diagram at all, sorry.  And why do you have push button and SPDT switch together?



> You may find out that you'll need a Capacitive Discharge Unit


I really don't wanna deal with that stuff....Must exist easier way. I hope Massey is right.. But I have no clue about relays... Is it in inside of the motor?



> I do recommend doing this to learn how everything works before starting on a permanent layout.


Completely agree with you. That's why I'm going to build the oval. 



> If you don't have a DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) buy one.


I will. Must have item. Thanks!
---
It's complicated... I will come back to other stuff later.. including bus..


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## Brakeman Jake

First question...Atlas's turnout control switches are flimsy at best and have a notorious tendancy to stick as they age thus frying your turnout coil.It hasn't happened to me but they've been discussed on other forums.I've had a few of them (came with Snap-Switches) and I thrashed them all...they work flawless in a garbage can.
On the other hand,MOMENTARY SPDT switches can be found in any electronics store for about a buck each.They'll be reliable and use less space in your control panel.

Massey says you don't need a CDU and I believe this absolutely.I've talked of what I know but your turnout motors I don't know.But should you ever need a CDU,it is not very expensive and is a piece of cake to incorporate into your turnout system,so don't worry about this yet.About the relays...I'll let Massey explain himself.

And yes,a Multimeter is a handy tool.What I also use a lot is an automotive testlamp.You can have a real cheap one(or make one yourself) in automotive stores.They're handy (and fast) when you're checking for continuity (with both DC and DCC) and don't need a voltage reading.


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## Massey

I am going to follow Jake's format here and answer questions as you asked

Those little switches from Altas that come with the snap switches and others are cheap and cause more problems than they are worth. I had one that was bad right out of the box and it fried one of my switch motors. The momentary SPDT or pushbutton are rated for high current and they can easily handle the job for only a few $$$.

THe track you are talking about is fine. I didnt know they still made them things. I had a few as a kid and you simply attached the wires with spring clamps or screws. It will supply power to the tracks same as rail joiners with wires attached (atlas makes these) or by soldering.

The diagram was modeled after the way the Atlas switches function. The switch motors cannot have power applied to them at all times, and that is the reason for the pushbutton. A momentary SPDT can also be used, so long as you dont apply constant power to the switch motor. My schematic runs from left to right with the input to the outputs. This type of switch motor requires 3 connections, the middle is one lead off the power supply and the outer wires supply the forward or backward current for the switch motor to move the points.

The "snap" type switch motors are made with 2 electromagnetic coils inside. One will push a rod forward the other will pull it back. You will have one common wire and one wire for each coil. These are relay type switch motors. They can also be called Solenoid type. These draw alot of current and if you are only flipping one at a time you will be ok with out a CDU. If you use one switch to handle more than 2 of these types of switch motors you will need a CDU to give the switch motors a little more of a kick using the capacitors.

Good idea on the experiments first!! Hands on is the best learning if you ask me.

With the DMM do not go cheap! You get what you pay for but you dont need a $500 Fluke either. I have found that this one here available at many autopart stores is a great model. 
http://www.equus.com/Product/Detail/B42B093D-9BF5-4EF4-AA36-77374C6F2293

I bought mine at O'Reilly auto parts for about $36.00

Massey


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## scanssystems

Finally I came back! Hello everybody again! I will get my stuff in couple days and I will let know later.



> ...Those little switches from Altas that come with the snap switches and others are cheap and cause more problems than they are worth....
> ....Atlas's turnout control switches are flimsy at best and have a notorious tendancy to stick as they age thus frying your turnout coil....


I agree with you. Even looks like a crap. Forgotten. :thumbsdown:



> Good idea on the experiments first!! Hands on is the best learning if you ask me.


Thank you! I very appreciate it! It is very important to feel support. Thank ou very much!!! :thumbsup:



> On the other hand, MOMENTARY SPDT switches can be found in any electronics store for about a buck each.


NO WAY! I can't find any! I checked all local stores, even eBay! Can you help me to find it on Ebay? Just give me a couple links, please. I can't find.  



> But should you ever need a CDU,it is not very expensive


Can you give me any sample? I saw automobile ones only.. They're like $200..



> My schematic runs from left to right with the input to the outputs.


Left side have done very well but the right one doesn't have descriptions and has a lot of curves (90 degrees turns ) and points and goes out somewhere...


----------



## Brakeman Jake

You can't find your switches...well that surprises me a lot as these aren't rare items.You should be able to have them in a Radio-Shack or electrical supplies store.This failing,try auto parts store(or truck parts better still).They may not have it in stock but can order them for you.However these are going to be slightly more expensive but of higher quality.

Here in Quebec,we have a store called Madison that stocks these.I don't know if you have them in the U.S.

As I already told you,do not worry about a CDU for the moment.It is highly likely that you will not need one as Massey told you.However,should you ever need one,this is available for under $40. I built mine from a plan on Internet under $20.

I can't help you on your "schematics" question,I simply don't understand it.What about the left and right?Confusing....sorry.


----------



## Massey

OK I was using PAINT for the schematics and I didnt color code the wires very well. I will try to correct this when I get to work (where the original file is). The 90° bend is supposed to show the wire jumps over the other and is not connected at all. I put the lead from the power that does not go through the switches in the middle because it is the middle wire for the turnout motor.

an Automotive CDU is for the ignition system to give you a multiple spark ignition system, and it is not what is needed for this setup. Not only that but most CDU systems need DC power in order to work properly these switches use AC. Dont worry about this thing unless you are going to power multiple switches at once.

If you cant find the momentary switches you can use 2 pushbuttons or a pushbutton and SPDT switch as my schematic has drawn. I could not find any momentart SPDT or DPDT switches so I opted with the DPDT with center off. I am going to add at a later date light indicators to let me know which way the switch is thrown so I opted for the DPDT which were the same price as the SPDT.

Massey


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## scanssystems

All right. Looks like found them. Check it out, please. I mean parameters, are they good?
1. 3 POSITIONS ---MOMENTARY ON - OFF -- MOMENTARY ON [ 12 TERMIANALS].
2. 3A/250VAC. 6A/125VAC
3. SPADE SOLDER LUG.

If yes, I'm going to buy them today. They're in China... 



> I can't help you on your "schematics" question,I simply don't understand it.What about the left and right?Confusing....sorry.


Visually split the picture in 2 parts - left and right. 



> If you cant find the momentary switches you can use 2 pushbuttons or a pushbutton and SPDT switch as my schematic has drawn.


No way for me, I really don't like that way. I will look for my ideal one... and I will find it! 



> I will try to correct this when I get to work


Thanks! It will be awesome! Oh, I'm sorry, but can you draw more detailed? I mean draw boxes (turnout motor, SPDT switch, etc - for example) and show wire connections between them with marks what and where. Show like a picture, because I really don't understand schematics. I'm so sorry for asking that.. 

Also, what kind of wires do i need to buy for wiring _switch_, _motor_ (it has some wires) and _other electronic components_ Any _other purposes_ wires?
On Monday-Tusday I'll buy Digitrax Zephyr DCC51 and I wonder to know, do I need to buy any additional wires for that or they're already included?
What kind of wire do I need for bus?
---
*Thanks a million for answers, guys!!!! YOU'RE THE BEST!!!*


----------



## scanssystems

Here I tried to do my own schematics on base of my reading. Is it correct? Is it correct to Digitrax Zephyr DCC51?


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## scanssystems

No, something wrong, because Zephyr has different AC.


----------



## Brakeman Jake

The switches you found will get the job done indeed but they are overkill,probably quite bulky and expensive too.But if they are cheap....and you don't need the four circuits,a simple momentary DPDT(six terminals) will be just fine.

Massey has suggested to use one pushbutton and a DPDT switch to operate turnouts and I was wondering what was the advantage in doing this.Then it struck me...DPDT switches are two separate circuits that get switched simultaenously so one circuit could be used to select the direction the TO is thrown and the other circuit could alternately activate pilot lamps that would tell wich was the last direction the TO was thrown...great idea indeed.In this schematic,the DPDT would be the "selector" and the pushbutton be the "trigger" sort of.I was thinking about using "snap relays" to activate pilot lamps on my layout but this solution is way more simple,cheap and reliable.

However,if you do find this idea worthy to you,YOU WILL NOT NEED THE MOMENTARY SWITCHES ANY MORE.Regular DPDT(non momentary) and pushbuttons will do.This is exactly as per Massey's schematic,plus the pilot lamps circuit to be added and a DPDT instead of an SPDT.Do not rush buying,we'll see what other modelers think.


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## Brakeman Jake

NO,turnout throwing should have its own power supply system and in no way be linked to your DCC system other than through a stationary decoder.


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## Massey

Scanss, your schematic is good but dont use the same power supply for the DCC that is used to run the switch motors. The switch motors use so much current that it will shut the DCC controller down.

12 terminal switches??!! Are you sure they are not quad pole double throw? Those would be overkill for this setup. SPDT (3 terminal) or DPDT (6 terminal) is all you need.

Jake the DPDT idea is for exactly what you mentioned, the indicator lights. These lights can be on the tracks as signals, on a panel for the operator or both and the hookup is simple, although just flipping the switch will change the light but it may not mean the switch is thrown unless you push the button. The pushbutton in my schematic is for the momentary function that your momentary switch would accomplish. I could not find momentary DT switches around here, not small ones like I wanted anyway.

If you wanted to get true indication of the switch position you would need to step up to a slow motion machine like a Tortoise or Cobalt that has the logic circuit built in. I suppose a pi-bolar flip flop circuit could be used but that would be getting too complicated.

Massey


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## scanssystems

I'm confused. I'm completely confused by you, guys. 
In the beginning you told me about SPDT, now you suggest me DPDT.. What are these terminals means? Where are they and how can I count them?
For my schematics I used that article:
http://www.ehow.com/how_5842863_wire-train-standard-switch-remote.html
My found switch:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190551757095&category=47076&_trksid=p5197.c0.m619#ht_913wt_1163

What about these? Even train modeler left feedback
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062530#showFullReviews



> NO,turnout throwing should have its own power supply system and in no way be linked to your DCC system


Hold on a minute, earlier I was said I have to buy better DCC system in order to supply my turnout with power. No I was said I can't connect them together. I'm confused!  What kind of power supply do I need?

I don't want to have push buttons. I want to toggle switch up and down in order to throw TO.



> These lights can be on the tracks as signals, on a panel for the operator or both and the hookup is simple, although just flipping the switch will change the light but it may not mean the switch is thrown unless you push the button. The pushbutton in my schematic is for the momentary function that your momentary switch would accomplish.


So, you want to say, I can flip switch and choose the track with signal light and after that I can push the button and TO will be switched to that position? Is it correct?



> DPDT switches are two separate circuits


I'm sorry, how is that? How many do I really need?


----------



## Brakeman Jake

OK...it may be confusing but what you're reading are options.They're the results of different brains working to offer the best possibilities,with the + and- of all.Up to you to choose.

One of the problems that experience has taught modelers is to know in wich direction a turnout is thrown to start with.Your eyes can tell when the TO is sufficiently close to you but for those wich are more remote,it's much different.What we're suggesting you here is a way to correct this problem at the same time you set up your turnout controls,and this for a bit more work and a minimal cost.

Now,if you want the very basic way,the momentary SPDT way,it'll work flawlessly and yes,go for it.

But if you want the added feature of having a pilot lamp telling you in wich position your turnout is so you know if you have to throw it or not,then the other option is on the table.Ignore it if you wish,that won't dim my sun at all,it's your layout.What Massey and I are doing here is letting you know what CAN be done,based on our experience,so you can have the most enjoyable options at minimal cost.Just that simple.If you do choose this option,you'll need the pushbuttons you don't want.

DCC system can control turnouts through stationary decoders but are not designed to power them directly.Their output current is meant to power locos and carry digital commands to all decoders,mobile and stationary.In the case of turnouts,the stationary decoder accepts a command from the DCC control and acts as a switch(relay) to use another power source to throw the turnout.


----------



## scanssystems

> use another power source to throw the turnout


Which one? Can you suggest me brand and model?



> What Massey and I are doing here is letting you know what CAN be done,based on our experience,so you can have the most enjoyable options at minimal cost.


I know, thank you very much guys! I very appreciate it!


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## Brakeman Jake

To answer this,your turnout manufacturer's info will be useful.What does the maker recommend as power?Voltage,amperage,etc.


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## scanssystems

I'm going to get it today. I will let you know as soon as.
What do you think about that one?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062530
And that one?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062541


Can I use them together for that turnout system?


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## Brakeman Jake

It depends on wich option you want.It seems that you want option two with the pilot lamps,then you need a REGULAR DPDT switch,not a MOMENTARY one since the pushbutton supplies the momentary action.
That is if you still don't want the pushbutton (and the pilot lamps option) that you need the momentary DPDT or even only a momentary SPDT.
And if option two is your final choice,you might as well look for small pilot lamps on the same trip.Since the lamps will tell turnout positions,you have other options here....you can go for a single lamp per turnout...either green for "open" direction or red for "closed".And then if you want to spend more,you can have both...green and red...your choice again.The DPDT allows this,only an extra wire.

Whatever the lamps you choose,make sure you know the required voltage to operate them.It should be specified on the wrapping but if not ask the teller.

And please,read this carefully and picture it in your mind so you don't get confused again.I don't know how to post a schematic here.However,I believe that Massey will pitch in with extra help on this as I know he understands what I'm saying,in case you don't get it.


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## Brakeman Jake

And I forgot to tell you,the DPDT shown is way overkill,you don't need 20 amps. capacity.There are others much smaller like the pusbutton ones (2-3 amps) that will do and cost much less.But remember...regular not momentary for option two.


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## scanssystems

Thank you! I got it clearly right now. I have a real picture in my mind right now.
I want switch with button and both lights (on track and control panel). The question, how to wire them all together?
I have drawn schematics but I didn't connect them all cause I don't know. Can you connect them in MS paint application and post it here? Thank you!


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Can you say the exact parameters for DSPD switch? I mean V, Amp, ON-ON, etc. So I will be able to find any one by myself.Thank you!


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## Brakeman Jake

Sorry....you're just as confused as ever.Do not buy anything yet and try to erase whatever you've understood so far.Let's wait a little while and hope Massey will pitch in with a diagram.It's not that complicated but you are mixing old infos with new ones and it has you confused.And you're in such a rush to purchase components that it's almost impossible to follow you.There are known things then there are the unknown ones...principally what will be your turnout power requirements.

If you should need a CDU,then this will dictate what transformer you'll need to power your turnouts.The one I built from a plan works on 24VDC but others may differ.And this voltage will dictate wich resistors you'll need to power your LED's,etc.

The only components you can buy now,assuming you want option two,are:

-Pushbutton switches,one per turnout,the ones you showed are OK,color is your choice.
-REGULAR DPDT swithes(NOT MOMENTARY),2-3 amps.cap. is plenty,one per turnout.

You elected to use LED's,very good,but you'll need resistors when system voltage is known so might as well buy at the same time and since we won't know if you'll need a CDU thus what transfo will be required,I suggest you wait for further purchases.


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## scanssystems

Yes, you right. It's time to stop. For now I need something simple, because I have to buy a lot of essentials right now. I will control that stuff right now. I'm gonna do very simple for the begging. Lights can wait.

P.S.
I found Peco CDU - what can be better.


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## Brakeman Jake

A CDU is needed to throw PL-10 turnout coils reliably but I suspect that PL-11's don't need it.An coming from Peco,the CDU you're talking about is a sure shot quality wise but probably is expensive.......


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## scanssystems

I got my stuff!!!! Yeah! I have loco, decoder, tracks, TO, motor, decoder and cars... DCC unit is next!  
I'm going to wire TO like in the instruction. Simple and for beginners. I like their way. Little by little.
Here's schematics. Everything is simple..


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

But how to connect motor and TO? I showed that thing in red circle. What is that? I don't have it.


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## Brakeman Jake

First problem...I believe you should have a special pin coming with the turnout motor.Otherwise it doesn't make sense.Or they sell it separately.The Peco turnouts are designed to be powered with PL-10's wich are under the turnout and the PL-10 has a steel rod that goes through a small hole in the TO actuating arm.Now you have two holes....
Check if it is in the TO package...or dropped to the floor when you opened it...or tied to the motor...there should be some sort of a pin or special screw.Can't tell you,I never used PL-11's.

Now,the serious matters.If you still want the lamps feature in the future that is.We're going to work the Peco schematics a little.Just read carefully and take your time,it's fairly easy.

First,the pushbutton switch goes between the CDU and the PL-26 switch.Just that simple.

Then,you will install a regular (NOT MOMENTERY)DPDT switch in place of the PL-26.How?Easy,just read slowly.A DPDT switch is in fact like two SPDT switches,so it has two rows of three terminals.Each row is a switch on its own.You will install the switch in your schematics using one row only(leaving the other row empty for now) wired exactly like the PL-26.From then on,you have working turnouts.
Do not care for the three empty terminals for the moment,they'll be used when you'll install the pilot lamps.In order to not get confused,see the turnout power and the pilot lamps as two different systems that are operated simultaenously with a common switch.That's exactly what it is.

Remains is the CDU and transfo...did you buy Peco's?If not,let us know and we'll steer you towards an efficient and affordable way to power your system.And only then will consideration be given to your lamps.You'll need resistors to power your LED's and these can be determined after we know the voltage of the transfo.

It is important that you understand what you're doing as you go,so that you can troubleshoot the system should a failure occur and going a step at a time is the best way.


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## scanssystems

> First problem...I believe you should have a special pin coming with the turnout motor.Otherwise it doesn't make sense.Or they sell it separately.The Peco turnouts are designed to be powered with PL-10's wich are under the turnout and the PL-10 has a steel rod that goes through a small hole in the TO actuating arm.Now you have two holes....
> Check if it is in the TO package...or dropped to the floor when you opened it...or tied to the motor...there should be some sort of a pin or special screw.Can't tell you,I never used PL-11's.


This is a real problem. I didn't have any. This is my first one and I have no idea how it suppose to be. I don't know what to do. 



> First,the pushbutton switch goes between the CDU and the PL-26 switch.Just that simple.
> 
> Then,you will install a regular (NOT MOMENTERY)DPDT switch in place of the PL-26.How?Easy,just read slowly.A DPDT switch is in fact like two SPDT switches,so it has two rows of three terminals.Each row is a switch on its own.You will install the switch in your schematics using one row only(leaving the other row empty for now) wired exactly like the PL-26.From then on,you have working turnouts.
> Do not care for the three empty terminals for the moment,they'll be used when you'll install the pilot lamps.In order to not get confused,see the turnout power and the pilot lamps as two different systems that are operated simultaenously with a common switch.That's exactly what it is.


I got it. Clearly I got it. No questions. But I will realize it later. I need to buy more important stuff first. Thank you a lot!



> Remains is the CDU and transfo...


Yep, transfo.. What kind? 16 v, but what is it? Any adapter even for laptop?

Another question.. what is the best way to wire insulfrog?








Is it the easiest way or just only one?


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## Brakeman Jake

No wiring whatsoever required for Insulfrog.The diagram shows the "bulletproof" version.I've installed quite a few Insulfrog turnouts and never wired any.Rail joiners at each ends and that's it.These TO's are power routing and are trouble free when rail contacts are clean.

The transfo will be selected after the choice of the CDU.Peco's need 16V,others differ.


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## Brakeman Jake

Although it can be built for less,I doubt you'd attempt it and since you had a hard time finding switches,I suspect you may have the same problems finding the components locally.

One CDU that's designed specially for model trains is the "Snapper" from Circuitron.It needs 12 to 25 VAC to work and Internet Trains sells it for $25.46. Part no. CIR 5303


----------



## scanssystems

> No wiring whatsoever required for Insulfrog.The diagram shows the "bulletproof" version.I've installed quite a few Insulfrog turnouts and never wired any.Rail joiners at each ends and that's it.These TO's are power routing and are trouble free when rail contacts are clean.


Got it. At least something easy.



> The transfo will be selected after the choice of the CDU.Peco's need 16V,others differ.


I will buy Peco.

Thank you for help, Jake! Only me and you left here. Thanks a lot!


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## Massey

OK here is the skinny. 

Power:
DO NOT use the DCC power supply. The amount of current the relay type turnout motor uses will cause the DCC command station to shut down. Any ordinary DC power pack with AC accessory outputs will work here. Even the cheapo Bachmann power packs will work. I am using on my layout a Bachmann Spectrum pack.

Switches:
SPDT is one switch with 2 options one toggle.
DPDT is one switch with 2 options, 2 seporate circuits and one toggle. Basicly 2 SPDT switches working with one toggle.

Momentary switches: will not hold their positions. 
Center off: means there is a dead spot in the center and no current will pass through the switch unless it is thrown one way or another
Normally closed: Usually refering to a momentary switch that allows current to pass through the terminals and throwing the switch turns it off. Usually a SPST referance.
Normally Open: Oppisite of Normally Closed. The switch is thrown closed but returns to the off position. This is the type needed for the turnout motors.

Ratchet type push putton. These act like ball point clicker pens. Push once for on push again for off.

In oder to do the LED turnout indicator you will need to use standard DPDT, not the momentary. One side of the switch is used for the turnouts the other side for the LEDs. You will need power supply for the turnout motors (AC) and another for the LEDs (DC). This can be supplied by the same power pack just make sure you do not exceed the LED voltage. 

THere are ways around this of course. If you are set on momentary switches with LED indicators you will need some type of Bipolar flip flop circuit.

If you want AC power for both sides you will need some type of rectifier. to supply DC for the LED circuit.

Either way you are making things more complex. I will draw a schematic for the switch and LED system and I will try to make it easy to read. Gimme a few minutes.

Massey


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## scanssystems

Hey, Massey! Welcome back to thread!
Alright, I did some decisions and bought 5 brand new Peco PL-26 switches. That was a deal! Just $17.50 including shipping!
I found them useful for me because they are 2-in-1: momentary and regular. I move stick up -> it gives momentary signal to motor -> TO switched -> stick remains in the same position because it is 2-in-1 (momentary signal has been sent). This way I can what way my TO switched and I can organize them really neat.








Smart, easy, fast. Like my boss says: "Don't work hard - work smart".


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## Massey

Here is both a simple control and one with indicators.










Massey


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## scanssystems

Thank you, Massey, but I don't understand schematics.  This is my main problem.That's why I'm here.
I'm really interested in second one.


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## scanssystems

I'm sorry but my question was ignored a lot of times: *WHAT KIND OF 16V AC DO I NEED? HOW IS IT LOOKS LIKE?* Thanks!


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## Brakeman Jake

Simply wasn't time to answer as no CDU choice is confirmed yet.And buying your switches pretty much render both schematics and the efforts useless.Have it your way.........


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## sstlaure

I power my tortoise switches with AC adapters from laptop/cellphone chargers. Simply cut the terminal off the end of the wire and hook up the pos/neg leads. You can get them cheap at swap meets.


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## scanssystems

sstlaure said:


> I power my tortoise switches with AC adapters from laptop/cellphone chargers. Simply cut the terminal off the end of the wire and hook up the pos/neg leads. You can get them cheap at swap meets.


What's a brilliant idea! Easy and smart! Thank you! :thumbsup:



> Simply wasn't time to answer as no CDU choice is confirmed yet.And buying your switches pretty much render both schematics and the efforts useless.Have it your way.........


Please, don't be mad at me. I listen advises but have my own decisions. My final decisions. I'm very glad for all you help and I will realize it. I learn.


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## scanssystems

Can I use 5v power source instead of 16V? Or 16V is mandatory?


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## Massey

If you dont know how to read schematics you will need to look up how to read them online or grab a book from the library. Schematics are roadmaps of wiring, plumbing, and many other systems. They use symbols to represent devices and lines to represent how the units connect. 

The voltage depends on what each device you are using. The Atlas turnout motors run on 12-20VAC they must have that voltage to function properly. I use 18V as an expample since my trainsformer supplies 18V AC

The symbols I used on my schematic are typical symbols for:

pushbutton (normally off) switch
SPDT 
DPDT
LED (minus the arrows)

I even labeled the devices and color coded the wires. This is as simple as you can get really. 

All and all your schematics and setup are going to depend on the equipment you buy. Decide what switch machines you want, how you want to activate them then we can assist you. Until then there is nothing more I or Jake can assist you with. We have both worked together to steer you in the right direction and we have repeated ourselves many times to get the point across. I am not angry, I will still assist you the best I can but if you cant understand what has already been said then you are going to have to provide us with your equipment and we can show you exactly how things will work.

Massey


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## scanssystems

Massey said:


> If you dont know how to read schematics you will need to look up how to read them online or grab a book from the library. Schematics are roadmaps of wiring, plumbing, and many other systems. They use symbols to represent devices and lines to represent how the units connect.
> 
> The voltage depends on what each device you are using. The Atlas turnout motors run on 12-20VAC they must have that voltage to function properly. I use 18V as an expample since my trainsformer supplies 18V AC
> 
> The symbols I used on my schematic are typical symbols for:
> 
> pushbutton (normally off) switch
> SPDT
> DPDT
> LED (minus the arrows)
> 
> I even labeled the devices and color coded the wires. This is as simple as you can get really.
> 
> All and all your schematics and setup are going to depend on the equipment you buy. Decide what switch machines you want, how you want to activate them then we can assist you. Until then there is nothing more I or Jake can assist you with. We have both worked together to steer you in the right direction and we have repeated ourselves many times to get the point across. I am not angry, I will still assist you the best I can but if you cant understand what has already been said then you are going to have to provide us with your equipment and we can show you exactly how things will work.
> 
> Massey


Thank you Massey! I tried several times and got it! I got it! Thank you!
BTW, do you have same system for your layout?


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## Massey

I am using Atlas snap switches and I am going to make the turnout controls with pushbuttons and DPDT switches. I will later add the LED indicators (the reason for the DPDT switches). This is ONLY for my lower staging yard. The turnouts on the rest of my layout are controlled by ground throws. In time I will be replacing the turnouts with some hand laid turnouts and slow motion switch motors with DCC control.

Massey


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## scanssystems

Why don't you use Peco switches? Is Atlas better? Ground throws mean manual switch, didn't it?


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## Massey

I have Atlas switches because they are readily available at my local train stores. Peco I have to order online. I will purchase from a brick and mortor store before I buy online. As for the hand laid turnouts I have built a couple of them and they are really nice. They work better than the comercially available ones and take about an hour or so to build. I am going to use the Fast Tracks turnout jigs and turnout templates.

Massey


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## scanssystems

I prefer to buy online: faster and 2 times cheaper.


> I have built a couple of them and they are really nice.


Can you show them?
P.S.
I have ordered Zephyr today...


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## scanssystems

Alright, I put all parts together except CDU and... it works like a charm! No need to spend money for CDU.


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## scanssystems

By the way, what can I use to connect my 16V AC unit with all other TO motors? I don't want to make a twist-mess. Thanks!


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## scanssystems

Here we are again.  Hi guys! :smilie_daumenpos:
I got a problem. I use Atlas code 83 turnouts #4 for my simple oval(opposite sides trough 2 turnouts). I try to connect them together but can't. I have short or no power. I tried a lot of configurations but can't find the right one. Everything works if I connect only like in the picture.


But this is ridiculous!

Can anyone help. I can't find any help on Google.
I guess I have to change polarity but I don't know how to do... Maybe I'm wrong..
Thank you for any help!!!


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## NIMT

You have created 2 reverse loops, your going to need to get a Digitrax AR-1 to connect the center cross over section up! Insulate both rails on both sides of the center crossover.


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## scanssystems

OMG! You're complitely right! How did I miss it?! Thank you very much for picture!  Now I got it.


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## scanssystems

Got another problem. A real problem.
I regret my purchase of Atlas turnouts. But I didn't have a choice. I need #4 but Peco doesn't produce such ones. So, I bought 5 turnouts and motors for them and now I have to deal with it.
Problem: I can't throw my turnouts. I have click but no kick. Only one side kick. Then you have to manually switch to opposite one and then you can switch again. That's it. No way to work out.
Ok. I did research and find out, all Atlas turnouts work great along with CDU. Fine, I bought Peco's one. Very good and solid CDU. But still same result! Nothing changed! Damn.  I give up. I don't know what to do. 
Please, help!

Thank you in advance, guys!


----------



## Massey

How did you wire them up? The atlas switch motors need a forward and reverse pulse to activate them. There are 2 sets of coils in the motors and applying the AC voltage of 12-18V momentarily you get enough current to activate the coils. The center post is common and the left and right posts activate each coil. From the switch you need to put driect from the power supply current to the center post and then the switched current to the left and right posts.

Massey


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## scanssystems

I wired them up like in the instruction. It has a simple picture and I did exactly like in it. Center one directly to CDU.
Is it any way to check CDU? This is one brand new. Can't be broken.


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## scanssystems

Damn! I found! Peco has instruction.. Same wires color but different wire meaning! Damn Chinese mnfgs! I respect Peco for smart planning.
Problem solved. Thanks everybody!

*HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!*


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## Rays82vette

You seem like you know about what your talking so I'll ask you this. I had a question about switch numbers, but that was answered by a guy you gave me the web site for NMRA, but the other question I have is concerning a reverse loop when wiring using a DCC system. I will be using the NCE Power Cab to start. The loop has to be wired separately right? Does the DCC figure this out or do I have to let it know? This is one of the last wiring problems I haven't out.


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## Brakeman Jake

In the case of a return loop,an automatic reversing module is required and is supplied by DCC manufacturers at very reasonable cost.That is unless you prefer going with a DPDT switch for manual polarity control.

With both ends isolated (both tracks),the loop is wired through the reversing module wich detects and instantly correct any polarity conflict as soon as the loco's wheels cross the gap.


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## scanssystems

Thank you, Jake! Absolutely agree with you! 
I can add only one thing. One converter per loop or one locomotive on loop per converter.


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## scanssystems

Can I break(short or whatever) CDU if I misrepresent input/output polarity? I mean if I put AC wire in OUT holes(instead of IN). One word - backwards.


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## NIMT

scanssystems said:


> I can add only one thing. One converter per loop or one locomotive on loop per converter.


This is not true, you can run several engines on a Reverse loop controller at one time.
And Yes you can Break,Short,Kill,Fry almost any electronic circuit by back feeding voltage to it!


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## scanssystems

Of course you can! BUT you didn't get my point. I said "one locomotive per loop PER CONVERTER". It means you can control more than one(2,3...) loop with ONE converter but it has to be ONE loco on any loop (of 2,3...) or short will be have a place. Otherwise you have to have converter on each loop.


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## NIMT

Just the possibility of 2 locos being on the layout in 2 different sections at the same time makes the use of one control for several reverse loops too much of a risk!
Extremely bad idea to hook up a reverse loop controller to more than one loop! Will it work, Yea till it fries


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## scanssystems

Yes, but in any way. You can use it harmless you if you do it accurate.


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## Rays82vette

Ok then, to be safe....on converter per reverse loop...thanks. I'd rather spend a bit more money and be safe then to fry things. Electrical is the hardest part of this hobby. If I could figure out how to post my track plan for my starter piece,( a 18' by 30" yard with a piece added for a loop at the far end. It will be 11 tracks wide. ) I would ask ya all to comment. I plan on building this first as it will be hidden and any mistakes I make won't show. And while I'm at it. for a 2% grade.....about how much rise would be in each say 12" section? Thanks guys for your help. This forum has been a great help as well as fun to read.


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## NIMT

Look at this post for grade answer.
Click Here


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## Rays82vette

Ok......WOW. It looks like the only sane way to get to the a second layer 18 to 24 inches high is a helix.. was hoping that a run of say 25 to 30' would make it to 24 inches if I keep it at 2%. And from all I have read, more then that and beside being unrealistic, the engines will having trouble climbing with more then just a few cars. and a helix, quite frankly, scares me a bit.


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## kursplat

Rays82vette said:


> Ok......WOW...and a helix, quite frankly, scares me a bit.


 :laugh: just when you think electrical is the hard part...

for posting your layout, you can draw it by hand and scan it, draw it in MS Paint and post the picture or download a trial version of a layout design software, draw the yard portion, and post it


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## Rays82vette

well, I guess I'll worry about a helix after I get this project done. I'll have enough with DCC, Tortoise's, hares auto reverse and all that stuff. with like 23 switches in this yard, it will be a wiring nightmare..... If I survive this without frying anything or worse, burning the house.....the rest shouldn't be to hard.


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## NIMT

The good news is that with all that you have said that your going to use your only going to need 2 #14 wires running around the entire layout, Really only 2 wires the joy of DCC!


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## Rays82vette

Hummmmm Still haven't figured that out. I know i will need the bus wires. then the feeders to track every 3 to 6 ft. then all the wiring for the switch machines, etc. still isn't going to be easy for a nube like me. But I like a challenge.....


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## NIMT

Ray,
Read real close... you ready.
You will only need 2 #14 wires (Bus) going from the command station following the rails all the way around, and that's it!!!
OK maybe a few pairs of bus wires if it's really large!
You do not need for any other wiring for the switch machines or any of the reverse loop controls!! None, Nadda, Zilch, Zippola!!!
When you use "Hares" for the "Tortoise" switch machines or "Smails" the power is all from the DCC system!
Reverse loop controllers just require DCC in and they then provide the controlled DCC out!
Really it's that easy!


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## Rays82vette

LOL....you make it sound to easy........ Ok....Then your saying the tortoise machines need no wiring? I know the hares do because you need to isolate a 1 to 2 inch section of track for the loco to trip before it gets to the switch. The hare then trips the switch automatically, or at least in the you tube videos I've been watching it does..... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FefJ...xt=C3084c43UDOEgsToPDskIOjQofqDCA--GICAxMf5qM


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## sstlaure

A helix isn't that hard to build yourself with some basic tools (3' long ruler w/hole in 1 end, jig-saw, & a power-drill w/phillips head bit) Take a look at my build thread to see how I did it - it only took a few hours of actual work (spread out over a couple weeks due to other things going on)

Mine rises ~12" to go from staging onto the main table and is a 3 loop helix, rising 4" per loop (HO scale). Mine is 26" radius and I'm at a grade of 2.45% (Linear run of 163.5" per loop) This is the minimum climb/loop you would want to have to maintain clearances between vertically stacked tracks.

I saw a helix in a magazine the other day that was a cone shape with the radius of the curve getting gradually tighter as it got to the top. The advantage was that the layers now nested into each other rather than stacking vertically so you could reduce the climb/layer because track to track clearance isn't an issue anymore. You could also have fully open access around the outer diameter of the helix. You'd just need to make sure you've got enough space radially to spread out and put your tightest radius at the top. The track bed would only need to be ~2.5" wide/layer if you're accurate with your track laying (use flex track)

Check out this crazy helix.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6ahlJM1Taw&feature=related


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## tjcruiser

Scott,

Way, way cool! I'm dizzy, of course, but that was fun to watch.

However, with all of the nested helix loops, I had a hard time trying to picture the track path in my mind. Is that one continuous track up and down throughout, or two "parallel" paths? Do you have a bird's eye track plan for that?

Very nicely executed!

TJ


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## sstlaure

It looked like parallel paths to me. In the comments of the video it says 2 separate 20 ft loops around the outside and 115ft feet of track looping in the middle. The way the tracks are all staggered you'd need to do some serious planning before you start cutting.

If I had to do it again (which I will) I'll try to go the cone shaped route to allow the helix to be visible rather from the outside compared to how my current one is buried inside the table.


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## Rays82vette

That is unreal.... and very cool.... 6 trains on a helix. I don't know if I would even attempt to build something like that. But it would be cool to have for sure.


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## Rays82vette

Ok, if I want to rise 24". and I want two tracks one say 28" and one say 24". and say a steady raise of 2%. How many levels will I wind up with and is this going to be possible to build myself or should I find some one with the know how?


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## Massey

Heck I want the plans for that little table layout. Get a nice piece of glass for the top and you would have one heck of a showpiece

Massey


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## Rays82vette

I'd put glass around the whole thing. maybe some lighting. It sure be a conversation starter.


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## sstlaure

Rays82vette said:


> Ok, if I want to rise 24". and I want two tracks one say 28" and one say 24". and say a steady raise of 2%. How many levels will I wind up with and is this going to be possible to build myself or should I find some one with the know how?


The only way to get a 2% grade with a 24" radius would be an oval helix with straights of 25" on the long legs (you need a linear run of ~200" to achieve a 4" rise - 4/200 = 2%)

Without the straights and a 24" radius - you're looking at 2.65% (linear run of 150.8" per loop)

With a 4" rise per loop, you're looking at at least 6 loops to gain 24" in height. Any less than 4" rise doesn't leave enough clearance between tracks for all types of cars to clear.

It's really not that hard to build. Like I said - look at my build thread, there are detailed pics of the helix build in the first few pages.


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## Rays82vette

Then what radius will work at 2% remember I need two tracks. and the 24 inch raise in the minimum. the second level hasn't been build yet so i can do what ever it takes. I've been told that much more then 2% the loco's have trouble pulling anything more then just a few cars.


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## Rays82vette

you know what? I think the little light bulb in my brain just came on. Your saying the wider the curves, the longer the run, therefore the more room between layers. So, If I use say a 30 inch radius that should get me close to the 4" clearance. Or am I still out to lunch.....been 40 years since I had to do this kind of math.... haven't taken my shoes off yet....but ......LOL


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## NIMT

Ding Ding Ding!!!! Give that man a cigar!!! You got it! 
Larger the diameter the more clearance.
2% is on the lower side of the scale, If your doing steam your safer staying there, diesels can pull a 3% with out much of a problem. But you also have to factor in the drag of the curve too, I can safely pull a 3.5% grade on a strait line run but 2 to 2.25% is better on a small helix.


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## sstlaure

You set your grade based on the 4" clearance and the minimum radius. If you want a 2% max grade and 24" radius, you need a 200" run which is a complete circle at that radius + (2) 25" long straights. Now for the outer radius of 27" running on the same oval track, your grade on that line would be 1.82% because you traverse a longer run over the same rise.

The 27" radius circle and 4" rise would be 2.36% 

FWIW - I can run 8-10 heavy cars with a single engine no problem up my helix. Not sure what you want your maximum length train to be (typically dictated by the shortest passing siding length.) That will help you determine how much grade you want. I can also run 24 Walthers Goldline ore cars with a single engine, so I haven't had any problems with running on mine.

FYI.....In a helix you are pulling on a curve as well, which increases the friction.


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## jaydv

Having trouble understanding this turnout/switch thing. I have Atlas Custom-Line as well as Atlas Snap turnouts. All manual. Engine stops right in the middle of the turnout! 

Spent a few hours trying to figure it out...gave myself a headache! Best guess is that the polarity changes/shorts midway through the switch. Is this normal? What am I doing wrong?


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## sstlaure

What kind of engine and what size is the turnout? longer turnouts combined with shorter engines can cause stalling (especially if your engine only has single axle/truck power pick-up.)


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## Massey

I am leaning to the single axle pickups or dirty rails/wheels on the loco. Atlas switches are unsulated frogs so unless current is being picked up from another point the engine will stall when the pickup wheel rolls over the frog. Also Atlas switches are very DCC friendly and also very reliable conductivity wise.

Massey


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## jaydv

Massey said:


> I am leaning to the single axle pickups or dirty rails/wheels on the loco. Atlas switches are unsulated frogs so unless current is being picked up from another point the engine will stall when the pickup wheel rolls over the frog. Also Atlas switches are very DCC friendly and also very reliable conductivity wise.
> 
> Massey


Massey, based on what you say, should I try adding current to the other end of the turnout, perhaps via the next section of track? Also, I'm not running DCC.


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## jaydv

sstlaure said:


> What kind of engine and what size is the turnout? longer turnouts combined with shorter engines can cause stalling (especially if your engine only has single axle/truck power pick-up.)


Thanks! Indeed, engine powered by a single truck. What would you suggest to fix the problem?


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## NIMT

With Atlas Custom-Line turnouts you can power the frogs to make it work better with short wheel base and single axle pick up engines.
Snap switches you just out of luck.


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## jaydv

NIMT said:


> With Atlas Custom-Line turnouts you can power the frogs to make it work better with short wheel base and single axle pick up engines.
> Snap switches you just out of luck.


Thanks! I'm not quite sure how to do that, but I'll try to figure it out!


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## jaydv

Brakeman Jake said:


> Insulfrog turnouts definitely WILL NOT create shorts.The drawback of Insulfrog turnouts is that having a plastic frog means that there is a short length of track that has no power in it.This will only show with either very short locos or locos that have poor power pickup.Other than this Insulfrog turnouts will do the job just fine without the complexity of "frog powering",wich is the "bullet proof" way to install turnouts.


Jake...can you tell me more about "frog powering?" I have Atlas customline manual turnouts...can I do it?


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## jaydv

jaydv said:


> Having trouble understanding this turnout/switch thing. I have Atlas Custom-Line as well as Atlas Snap turnouts. All manual. Engine stops right in the middle of the turnout!
> 
> Spent a few hours trying to figure it out...gave myself a headache! Best guess is that the polarity changes/shorts midway through the switch. Is this normal? What am I doing wrong?


Looks like I may have located the problem. Two sections of the switch were not connecting down by one of the rivets. The metal tab underneath the rivet was not making good contact with both rails ... when the engine rolled over to the second rail, there was no juice.

Fixed it (I think!) by gently bending the tab up using a mini screwdriver. Something tells me, however, that this fix isn't going to last too long. I'm trying to figure another way to wedge something else between the track and the loose tab to conduct the electricity.

Thanks to all that responded to my concern!!!


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