# Basket Case 302



## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

I am working on a train right now that keeps surprising me! It is a very good looking 302, but every turn brings a new challenge which is fun but I am just so surprised that this train is still around. It looked so good that I really thought it would just need a clean and lube, as well as a new jack panel on the tender which is missing. I wanted to make sure before ordering parts I wouldn't need anything else, and that was when the loose driver wheel popped up. I found a suitable replacement and re-quartered it, then to the engine- only one brush came out and one spring was not stock. The commutator looked like black glass, and upon cleaning showed deep grooves where it had actually been running with the non-stock spring and a single brush! Cleaned up and resurfaced the commutator, new brushes and springs, and a lube and was ready to finally bench test and see how the re-quartering went (by hand, I don't have a jig for atlantics). I put probably 20 drops of smoke fluid in the reservoir and waited probably 20 minutes than fired her up on the bench and she screamed! Was very excited and lots of smoke. Hooked up a donor tender and put her on the tracks and she was running great, then the smoke stopped. So now I think I am finally ready to order parts, looks like a wick and a jack panel. Pull the tender shell off and the reverse unit should clean up. Start cleaning the wheels, and notice the front truck has a ton of play. Look closer, the rivet will drop right through the chassy! Man oh man, I can't believe this train looks as good as it does, I have never encountered this many issues on a train unless it literally looked like it had been dug out of the dirt. I guess I am going to learn to wind a wick and redo a powered truck rivet.  Just had to vent a little. Hope you all have a wonderful weekend!
Tim


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Can't judge a book by it's cover. 

Magic


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## Yard King (4 mo ago)

When you remove the four screws on the bottom plate it is a good idea to use the soldering iron to heat each screw up for about twenty to thirty seconds before removing it. This helps to soften any solidified old smoke fluid that gets in the threads. It helps to prevent snapping the heads off the screws and potentially having a scrap smoke unit.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

TimmyD said:


> I am working on a train right now that keeps surprising me! It is a very good looking 302, but every turn brings a new challenge which is fun but I am just so surprised that this train is still around. It looked so good that I really thought it would just need a clean and lube, as well as a new jack panel on the tender which is missing. I wanted to make sure before ordering parts I wouldn't need anything else, and that was when the loose driver wheel popped up. I found a suitable replacement and re-quartered it, then to the engine- only one brush came out and one spring was not stock. The commutator looked like black glass, and upon cleaning showed deep grooves where it had actually been running with the non-stock spring and a single brush! Cleaned up and resurfaced the commutator, new brushes and springs, and a lube and was ready to finally bench test and see how the re-quartering went (by hand, I don't have a jig for atlantics). I put probably 20 drops of smoke fluid in the reservoir and waited probably 20 minutes than fired her up on the bench and she screamed! Was very excited and lots of smoke. Hooked up a donor tender and put her on the tracks and she was running great, then the smoke stopped. So now I think I am finally ready to order parts, looks like a wick and a jack panel. Pull the tender shell off and the reverse unit should clean up. Start cleaning the wheels, and notice the front truck has a ton of play. Look closer, the rivet will drop right through the chassy! Man oh man, I can't believe this train looks as good as it does, I have never encountered this many issues on a train unless it literally looked like it had been dug out of the dirt. I guess I am going to learn to wind a wick and redo a powered truck rivet.  Just had to vent a little. Hope you all have a wonderful weekend!
> Tim


When I do a re-build, I take nothing for granted. I strip the engine down to just the chassis with the wheels and start from there. First I check all wheels for loose insulators, then loose center hubs.I could go on but you get my drift.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Yard King said:


> When you remove the four screws on the bottom plate it is a good idea to use the soldering iron to heat each screw up for about twenty to thirty seconds before removing it. This helps to soften any solidified old smoke fluid that gets in the threads. It helps to prevent snapping the heads off the screws and potentially having a scrap smoke unit.


When I re-do a smoke unit, I squirt CRC on all the screws, this stuff is amazing!..It works better than any penetrating oil..There's no reason to scrap a smoke unit with a broken screw head, usually the head will break off, leaving a sizable piece of thread sticking out of the smoke unit case,which you can grab with a pair of pliers or channel locks..Or if that's not the case, and the threads are the only thing left with nothing showing, simply sand down the threads flush to the case, and drill out the broken shaft. I've been repairing trains for over 30 years now, and I've only had 2 instances of broken screw heads, both within the past 60 days, go figure..It sounds like your way should work, and it probably does..Thanks for sharing.. Your way also works with stuck chassis pins on boxcars, reefers, etc.


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## Yard King (4 mo ago)

I have also been lucky if the head only shears off and I have been able to grab what is left of the thread and remove it. I have only once drilled one out OK and the other time for whatever reason it didn’t want to drill in the centre and it drifted off and I lost that unit. Luckily I have quite a few spare units that I can just swap out and then rebuild the old one at a later date.

I have never tried a CRC as I just got used to using the soldering iron method. You get a nice smell of the old cedar smoke oil with the iron method, a bit of a bonus you could say. 

Quite often the lower screws threads are caked on with old dried fluid and you need to clean it off before using them again. I also have a selection of slightly longer screws just in case the thread in the unit gets damaged.

I am also in favour of drilling the holes larger that the wick threads through from upper to lower chamber, personal choice.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Yard King said:


> I have also been lucky if the head only shears off and I have been able to grab what is left of the thread and remove it. I have only once drilled one out OK and the other time for whatever reason it didn’t want to drill in the centre and it drifted off and I lost that unit. Luckily I have quite a few spare units that I can just swap out and then rebuild the old one at a later date.
> 
> I have never tried a CRC as I just got used to using the soldering iron method. You get a nice smell of the old cedar smoke oil with the iron method, a bit of a bonus you could say.
> 
> ...


All your methods are 100%, I agree with everything you said.One word of caution, and maybe the other guys on the forum might not know this, the small tiny screws holding on the plate the linkages attach to on a Northern are almost the same size as the smoke unit screws, but somewhat shorter. Gotta be careful as the shorter screws won't "bite".


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Good luck with winding the wick. I tried it twice and failed both times. I only buy prewound wicks now.
Word of caution- The loops of wire around the wick can not touch another loop.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Buy the pre-wound kits from Jeff Kane, they're $6.00 each, I always buy 3-4 when I order parts from him, I use alot. Follow Al's advice....


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

flyernut said:


> When I re-do a smoke unit, I squirt CRC on all the screws, this stuff is amazing!..It works better than any penetrating oil..There's no reason to scrap a smoke unit with a broken screw head, usually the head will break off, leaving a sizable piece of thread sticking out of the smoke unit case,which you can grab with a pair of pliers or channel locks..Or if that's not the case, and the threads are the only thing left with nothing showing, simply sand down the threads flush to the case, and drill out the broken shaft. I've been repairing trains for over 30 years now, and I've only had 2 instances of broken screw heads, both within the past 60 days, go figure..It sounds like your way should work, and it probably does..Thanks for sharing.. Your way also works with stuck chassis pins on boxcars, reefers, etc.


Which CRC product are you recommending?


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

I was able to get all of the screw out just fine, though I will heat or use a penetrant in the future, as they came out hard. Flyernut, which CRC product do you use as a penetrant? I have yet to remove the little cardboard insulator box, any tips or tricks for that? I hear they are easy to tear. Also wondering if they are available... I am out of town and away from my parts manual, so haven't searched train tender yet for a P/N. I am planning on making my own wick, from what I saw on a you tube video, ~8 in of 40 guage nichrome wire ($7 for 250' on amazon) wrapped on tiki torch wick sounds like it works very well, and a life time supply of wick can be had for ~$20. Do you guys buy wicks or make them? This particular video spoke to 27-30 ohm resistance being a good number. Folks in the comments stated that it should be higher (again, away from my manuals), but the video provider swore he had been making wicks like that for years with NO issues... The truck will be fun. Enjoy your weekends!
Tim


flyernut said:


> When I re-do a smoke unit, I squirt CRC on all the screws, this stuff is amazing!..It works better than any penetrating oil..There's no reason to scrap a smoke unit with a broken screw head, usually the head will break off, leaving a sizable piece of thread sticking out of the smoke unit case,which you can grab with a pair of pliers or channel locks..Or if that's not the case, and the threads are the only thing left with nothing showing, simply sand down the threads flush to the case, and drill out the broken shaft. I've been repairing trains for over 30 years now, and I've only had 2 instances of broken screw heads, both within the past 60 days, go figure..It sounds like your way should work, and it probably does..Thanks for sharing.. Your way also works with stuck chassis pins on boxcars, reefers, etc.


w


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## Yard King (4 mo ago)

I make my own wick assemblies. I found that a one size resistance wick doesn’t work for all engines, most but not all. Before I rebuild a smoke unit I run the engine first with usually about 8-10 freight cars at a speed I feel is right for me. I am not someone that likes running them at a near flat out speed. Most of the time I am looking at about 11-12 volts which is interesting as 12 volts is used as a voltage in the parts sheets. I find with the wicks I make they need to be pulling about 0.45 amps to produce a good smoke output. Most of mine are made at around 27-29 ohms which go in ordinary steamers with a 1/2” motor.

With Northerns/Hudson’s/K5’s which have the large 3/4” motors I find that I can run them at around 10 volts and for these I have put in a wick that is 22 ohms and I haven’t burnt one out yet. With 0-8-0’s and 21004/5’s I go for a 24-25 ohm wick.

My wicks use a sleeve that the wire is threaded in each end with a needle, this stops the wire unwinding which can cause problems like overlapping coils. I also remove the cardboard insulator. It can be 50/50 as to them coming out OK so I don’t bother with them anymore.

Once the wick has been threaded into the lower chamber and the coil part is positioned in the upper chamber I use an ohm meter to check the coil is not shorting to the smoke body. I then put the top plate on and before I solder the two ends I check again to make sure the coil is not shorting. Below is a picture of one of my wick assemblies.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Since we are deep into smoke units here is some additional information that may be of interest. According to the Hannon book the minimum factory smoke element resistance was 35 Ohms. In 4 wire engines the 1.5 Ohm field resistance that is in series with the smoke element is insignificant. As the smoke element resistance is lowered to 27 Ohms the percentage of track voltage dropped in the Field starts to become significant and will slightly reduce the smoke produced. 
What Yard King is doing makes sense. The wattage generated in the smoke element determines smoke unit performance. Wattage is voltage squared divided by the resistance. So at 12V and 35 ohms the Gilbert element produces 4.1W of heat. 10V and 22 Ohms is 4.54W, only 10% more than the original Gilbert unit. At 12V it would be making 6.55W. I know as a kid I was always running my 322AC at 12V to 14V, fast speed, and it smoked a lot. If the kids (or an adult) are running an engine with a 22 ohm smoke element at 14V it will make A LOT of smoke. It would need to be kept very wet with smoke fluid. Put in 25 drops of fluid, add 10 more drops after 10 minutes of operation and the smoke unit will be fine. The 27 Ohm unit at 12V generates 5.33W of heat, about 25% more than the original Gilbert smoke unit. Just keep those wicks wet with smoke fluid and enjoy those clouds of smoke.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

TimmyD said:


> I was able to get all of the screw out just fine, though I will heat or use a penetrant in the future, as they came out hard. Flyernut, which CRC product do you use as a penetrant? I have yet to remove the little cardboard insulator box, any tips or tricks for that? I hear they are easy to tear. Also wondering if they are available... I am out of town and away from my parts manual, so haven't searched train tender yet for a P/N. I am planning on making my own wick, from what I saw on a you tube video, ~8 in of 40 guage nichrome wire ($7 for 250' on amazon) wrapped on tiki torch wick sounds like it works very well, and a life time supply of wick can be had for ~$20. Do you guys buy wicks or make them? This particular video spoke to 27-30 ohm resistance being a good number. Folks in the comments stated that it should be higher (again, away from my manuals), but the video provider swore he had been making wicks like that for years with NO issues... The truck will be fun. Enjoy your weekends!
> Tim
> 
> w


Good morning... I use CRC, Non-Flammable tuner/cleaner, red and white spray can. . I do all my work in the basement near my gas furnace and gas water heater, (10" away),so safety is a concern..It does have a product # and item # on the can...# 05018..item # 1003634..There is also a plastic-safe FLAMMABLE CRC, but I don't use it. The non-flammable is ok to use but be careful around knuckle couplers, it will eat them alive.If there is any plastic involved, I simply just scrub the surface with Dawn and warm water. It does not harm the white insulators, but it will eat the repo insulators on the market now. On the insulator box, I use a exacto-knife or something similar to release the cardboard from the sides of the wick box. You can also use the CRC there to dissolve the hardened fluid.. They are available from different sources, but be mindful of some of the ridiculous prices!! Jeff Kane has them..I'll get you a part # later....I have always bought my wicks and wire in a kit, I don't need the aggravation of winding my own, just my opinion. I've also have never had a unit go bad because of the coils touching each other. I tried to make sure the coils don't touch in my early days of smoke unit repair, but gave that up. I now just make sure the wire doesn't come in contact with the aluminum case of the smoke unit, THAT will fry it in a second. I also tried the Lionel resistors, but gave up on that too, it took a while to get them to heat up and generate smoke, so I gave away all of them to a friend. When I receive my smoke kits, I unwind 4-5 loops of wire from around the wick, this gives me instant smoke almost when I power up a loco.


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## Yard King (4 mo ago)

When I was looking into making my own wicks I found the following calculator very useful for calculating lengths, voltages, wattage, ohms in various combinations for different engines.

The one fixed bit of info you need is the wire gauge which as most people know is 40. If you play around with different lengths and voltages you will then find other useful information.



Hotwire Calculator


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks for posting the calculator. I looked at it, when the voltage block is checked, the target temperature autofills to 800F. In our toy train smoke units we are creating a vapor, not smoke, we do not want to have combustion in the smoke stack. The flash point of toy train smoke fluid is 265F. We do not want to exceed that temperature. Gilbert carefully designed these wound wicks to be safe for child play. If we stay within 125% of the dissipated wattage all will be good. The operating voltage is the most critical because it is a non-linear quadratic function. A 20% decrease in resistance increases the wattage by 20%. A 20% increase in track voltage increases the wattage by 44%. The Hotwire calculator can be used to calculate wire temperatures for these conditions, I have not done it. The calculated wire temperatures are in free air, not immersed in smoke fluid. The wire temperature will be much lower because the heat of vaporization of the smoke fluid reduces the heat in the nichrome wire. In any event, the values Yard King posted for different engines work well and produce a lot of smoke, which I like.
Modern command control engines with constant track voltage and voltage regulators on the smoke unit drivers make things much better. Even the Gilbert style smoke units in AM engines smoke great when converted to TMCC and operated with a constant 15V on the track.
In order to replace the wire in a Gilbert smoke unit with a Lionel smoke resistor, the ceramic coating has to be removed from the wire wound resistor. It can be cracked off with pliers. It will not work with the ceramic coating on it.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Tom mentioned the Lionel smoke resistors. They are 27 ohm. I would think they would last longer than the Nicho chrome wire. They do have a draw back. They need more volts to heat up. Running slow they will not smoke well. Here is a video I did after installing one.


MVI 0598 - YouTube


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## Yard King (4 mo ago)

I will say that like you I didn’t pay much attention to the temperature as this calculator is used for designing hot wire cutters and we are introducing an oil which changes the dynamics for our use. The only time it will come into play is if the wick runs dry, then the temperature will increase.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, I remember that video well. It also shows clearly how to connect (2 green wires) and jumper (red wire) the jack panel to operate the engine w/o a tender. That Lionel smoke resistor you installed is perfect for an engine converted to TMCC or to DCC where there is a constant voltage on the track.
Yard King, that calculator would be great for designing hot wire cutters. I never used a hot wire cutter but there were times I should have.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

Thanks Yard King,
I am a little confused, does the sleeve act as your insulator keeping the wire from touching the smoke box body if you have taken out the cardboard insulator?
Thanks!
Tim


Yard King said:


> I make my own wick assemblies. I found that a one size resistance wick doesn’t work for all engines, most but not all. Before I rebuild a smoke unit I run the engine first with usually about 8-10 freight cars at a speed I feel is right for me. I am not someone that likes running them at a near flat out speed. Most of the time I am looking at about 11-12 volts which is interesting as 12 volts is used as a voltage in the parts sheets. I find with the wicks I make they need to be pulling about 0.45 amps to produce a good smoke output. Most of mine are made at around 27-29 ohms which go in ordinary steamers with a 1/2” motor.
> 
> With Northerns/Hudson’s/K5’s which have the large 3/4” motors I find that I can run them at around 10 volts and for these I have put in a wick that is 22 ohms and I haven’t burnt one out yet. With 0-8-0’s and 21004/5’s I go for a 24-25 ohm wick.
> 
> ...


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

I appreciate all the discussion here! I just ordered some nichrome 40 guage wire, and will let you know the details and how it goes!
Tim


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## Yard King (4 mo ago)

The purpose of the sleeve is to help protect the wick from direct contact with the wire. Direct contact causes the wick to crisp up quicker and fail. The sleeve helps to extend the life. I have been doing these for a few years now and I haven’t had to change one yet. Some engines have done 40-50 hours with one in and still perform well. They will fail I know that but the less times I have to change them is one less job to do looking after the trains.

The nichrome is actually wrapped around the outside of the sleeve. The sleeve is a high temperature material and this heats up first and then evenly distributes the heat along the length of the wick. As AmFlyer said it is important to keep them fed with smoke oil. I do find with my wicks that as the oil starts to run out that the smoke performance tapers off slowly. i usually put the equivalent of about 20 drops in each time and I can get about 20 minutes before they need another refill.

Another tip which might be helpful is that when you refill a smoke unit you lift the cab of the engine up slightly. What happens is that when you fill a smoke unit normally the oil does not always run down to the lower chamber, if you are unlucky some oil will run down the channel and into the upper chamber where the element sits. If you put too much oil in then It overfills and leaks out of the small hole and into the void before the cylinder. It then runs down the bottom and past the screw and you find the bottom of the engine wet with oil. This gets onto the track and causes some of the problems of rolling stock wheels getting gunked up. I have found I spend less time cleaning wheels now and the track is cleaner for longer. This is also why some insulators are difficult to get out as the oil is like a glue when it dries and they tear as you remove them.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> Tom mentioned the Lionel smoke resistors. They are 27 ohm. I would think they would last longer than the Nicho chrome wire. They do have a draw back. They need more volts to heat up. Running slow they will not smoke well. Here is a video I did after installing one.
> 
> 
> MVI 0598 - YouTube


Great smoke at a higher speed, but slow speed the smoke is weak.. I do like the way that chassis runs though!!! It makes my powered chassis look bad, lol...I had very similar results when I used the Lionel resistors so I opted out using them...Again, nice job...


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

That is my 282 chassis. The engine I got at 5 years old. Yes it does run good. I am going to run 2 wires from outside 
plugs direct to smoke unit. Tom suggested that might give smoke unit more volts than running through the motor first.
You can see how the smoke diminishes as I slow the motor. Smokes great at fast speed but I do not run my trains at
fast speeds and I too like big smoke. I remember you tried the resistors and did not like them.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

TimmyD said:


> I was able to get all of the screw out just fine, though I will heat or use a penetrant in the future, as they came out hard. Flyernut, which CRC product do you use as a penetrant? I have yet to remove the little cardboard insulator box, any tips or tricks for that? I hear they are easy to tear. Also wondering if they are available... I am out of town and away from my parts manual, so haven't searched train tender yet for a P/N. I am planning on making my own wick, from what I saw on a you tube video, ~8 in of 40 guage nichrome wire ($7 for 250' on amazon) wrapped on tiki torch wick sounds like it works very well, and a life time supply of wick can be had for ~$20. Do you guys buy wicks or make them? This particular video spoke to 27-30 ohm resistance being a good number. Folks in the comments stated that it should be higher (again, away from my manuals), but the video provider swore he had been making wicks like that for years with NO issues... The truck will be fun. Enjoy your weekends!
> Tim
> 
> w


Here's the part # for the insulating gasket for the box...PA10519 through Jeff Kane, but it seems like that's a Gilbert #.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I bought 7 of them through Jeff Kane. A couple years ago. Seems they were less than a buck each. He knew what I wanted. No part number needed. Best way to remove old one would be exacto knife.


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## TimmyD (Dec 6, 2021)

Well the basket case 302 now runs great! I am a little frustrated with the smoke unit, it was smoking great for a few days, then died. Got the train to the owner so they could run it for Christmas, I will assess the wick situation after the holiday. Take care all, and thanks for all of your help as always!


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