# Speaker Upgrades



## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Since the sounds didn't work in this thing when I bought it 2nd hand, I gutted the electronics. It will get ERR Cruise and sound board. Now it's a matter of find the right speaker and enclosure combination.

The tender is a beast..... 









Old TMCC electronics.... they are gone!









Various speakers.... Fat Boys, Baby Fat Boys, assorted from Amazon/EBay.... and still waiting for the Bose Jewel Cubes. Leaning towards the Fat Boys with Lionel 2-10-4 enclosure (the short wide one) sound test will determine









The speaker in the front is the factory speaker. Pretty pathetic for this monster.









Enclosures... paint cap, Lionel 2-10-4, Legacy S3, and a Lionel Fat Boy enclosure.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It looks like you have the room. I would vote for the two 16 ohm speakers in parallel. 

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

The Fat Boys and Baby Fat Boys are all 16 ohm. The rest are 4 ohm.

My guess before the experiment starts is the two 16 ohm Fat Boys with the short, wide enclosure. But, I still haven't received the Bose Cubes yet... not sure what happened to my order. Those will require a bit of grinding on the tender inside flange for clearance... but I had to do it to my Sunset GS4 too... no big deal. 









That was a huge improvement just swapping the factory speaker and adding the enclosure. 2 speakers should be even better


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Doug, Thanks for posting. I'm very interested in this. Please let us know how things go


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Did any of these speakers come with specs other than impedence? If so, the one with the lowest Fs (free air resonance) and greatest sensistivity (db/watt) will generally be the best bet. It will have the deepest bass and loudest volume all other things being equal.

Pete


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Good topic Doug. Thanks for posting. I look forward to reading about your results.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm interested how the Bose Cubes sound. I looked at those a lot and haven't pulled the trigger yet for an ERR upgrade, similar to what you have planned.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think Doug has about $300 invested in speakers and enclosures, I sure hope the sounds are worth it!


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Well I have a couple other engines that need upgrades of speakers, electronics or both, such as my Pecos River Brass Hudson. That thing isn't even TMCC and the sound is similar to the Mighty Sounds of Steam from the MPC Era  The Hudson tender is small, being an early version before the size was increased for greater capacity. 

The only speaker with stats other than ohms and watts is one from Amazon. EBay has the same ones. DROK 4 ohm full range 2 inch version. which are the speakers 2nd from the left with square mounting plates in the photos above. Reviews say it has great base and volume. We shall see.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

LOS, The numbers looks great on the DROK speaker. Let us know how they sound. One reason I quit speaker building after 12 years of trying to outdo the pros was you are at the mercy of the driver manufacturers and the reviews of the so called "golden ears". Sometimes they were right, other times, not so much.

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Norton, do you think it will make much difference in sound quality or volume getting to the 8 ohms for the ERR sounds whether I use:

Two 16 ohm Fat Boys parallel to get 8 ohms

or

Two 4 ohm DROKs in series to get the 8 ohms


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I theory, it shouldn't matter. Just make sure the polarity is right. Plus to plus when in parallel, plus to minus when in series. If the terminals are not marked you can take a 1.5 v battery and put it across the terminals briefly. If the cone moves out, then the terminal that is touching battery positive is plus. 
As far as polarity when connected to the amp with these limited range speakers it probably won't make a difference. It does when using big woofers on your stereo though if you want to feel the attack from the bass drums or acoustic or electric bass.
I am guessing it will be hard to hear a difference in bass between most of the 2" drivers you have pictured but you will hear a difference in volume as they are likely to differ in sensitivity. 88db is about as good as it gets with these little speakers.
One more thing. If you plan to try a lot of different speakers you can use Mortite Caulk to hold them and the enclosure in place until you decide which ones you like best. Then drill holes. Mortite stays flexible for years and can be easily removed even after a couple of decades.

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks Pete.

Is Mortite Caulk just a standard caulk available at big box stores or more of a specialty caulk?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Mortite brand should be available in most stores. It comes in a box preformed and rolled up, not in a caulking tube. Ace hardware sells their own brand that is very similar. Both will work.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mortite-Weatherstrip-And-Caulking-Cord-45-GRAY-CAULKING-CORD/38480221

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks Pete, I would have spent hours looking for a tube of it lol


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Updates?


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I been sick for a week... havent done squat but drool all over myself trying to sleep. Just when I think I have some energy to do sumthing.... I start coughing and my head trys to pop off.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Laidoffsick said:


> I been sick for a week... havent done squat but drool all over myself trying to sleep. Just when I think I have some energy to do sumthing.... I start coughing and my head trys to pop off.


Hope you feel better-brown bottle flu usually clears up in a day. Must have a bad case?


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

First things first... the giant coupler had to go to make room for a Kadee:









The battery door is the perfect spot for the second speaker. I won't have to drill a bunch of big holes in the floor. I just removed the battery door, grind it down flat in a couple spots, and fit the enclosure.









There's plenty of room in this beast for dual fat boys inside of the Legacy S-3 enclosure. The cruise commander has room at either end but it's going towards the engine. Keep the mess of wires to a minimum.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Cut the flange out on both sides so the shell fits over the speaker enclosure. The Cruise board is mounted, speakers wired to the plug, and now it's boxed up and headed to GunRunnerJohn to finish up the upgrades. It's beyond my skill set with boards, chuff trigger, smoke unit upgrade etc etc.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Where's the audio board? 

I'm shocked you didn't put a couple of O-Scale Haulers in there, save me the shipping.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Audio board is in the parts baggy inside the box. 

I shoulda just shipped it in an O Scale Hauler to save you some time taking it apart. It woulda arrived in pieces. As big as that engine is... the Haulers are still bigger and heavier


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I got it back from GunRunnerJohn. Took it for a test run about 30minutes and this thing is awesome. Smokes like a chimney, and is super LOUD! 

ERR upgrade









Added a pick up roller to the tender as it didn't have any from the factory.









I'm going to strip it and re-number it to 5021 with the correct silver letters. I rubbed and rubbed with acetone, paint, and laquer thinner. These letters are stuck on there good, and even once they come off, you can still see where they used to be.

















When it quits raining (yeah holy crap it's raining in CA) I'll take it outside and soda blast it with my Air Erasor. Re-paint with some ScaleCoat gloss black so I can put the decals on.

John shot a short clip while testing so you can see the smoke and hear those Fat Boys.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That sucker was loud with those two speakers!  It was easier than most working on it, plenty of room in the tender, even with the two speakers.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

The tender has been re-lettered and re-numbered, including the rear numbers that Sunset forgot to put on from the factory.


Painted Scalecoat 2 black, shiny and ready for Microscale decals.









Add a little water with a brush before sliding the "Santa" on to the shell. You can see the decal soaking in water behind the foam cradle.










The new decals were sealed with Future Floor Finish (airbrushed on), and then several light coats of Dullcote airbrushed on to build up the dust and kill the jet black shiny surface.










I won't lie, putting all these letters/numbers sucked! Very tedious.










I'm shooting for this look when it's done. Towards the end of her days around 1953.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

Nice, but I am looking through the thread and why is it 5021 and not some other loco?


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Because 5021 is the number I wanted it be  It sat inside the roundhouse in Belen, NM for years, the moved to ABQ before it was moved to Sacramento. It's to be repainted in the next couple years, along with the 2925.

Not sure I understand your question Tim.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Nice job all around! The sound is very impressive. I am sure its even better in person rather than through my little tablet speaker.

Pete


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## Peter Herron (Jun 30, 2015)

Gotta love O scale with all that room to "fool around with"!!

Peter


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Great job. :thumbsup: That decal work on the rear of the tender must have resulted in some expletives.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

The decal work is absolutely superb and it is very realistic. Yes, they can be a pain but when done properly and sealed (great airbrushing!) they will last lifetime. Did you use any microsol to help the decals conform to the rivets?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll bet getting them under the ladder was fun.  Did you take that ladder off?


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

Laidoffsick said:


> Because 5021 is the number I wanted it be  It sat inside the roundhouse in Belen, NM for years before it was moved to Sacramento, and is to be repainted in the next couple years.
> 
> Not sure I understand your question Tim.


Thanks it should of been :

Why did you choose 5021 and what is the signifigance? 

My brain was melted from the 3-Railers meeting because I had to count ballots.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Not able to hear the audio as I'm at work! HAHA!

Will check it out when I get home. Been waiting on your follow up to this, but was in Africa the last few weeks. Not much time to check train forums! HA

Nice job as always. Your SF collection is impressive.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can tell you that that sound is LOUD!  Those two speakers really belt out the tunes.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Yes, the numbers on the back resulted in some name calling  Did them one at a time but a couple of them rolled up while moving them around. They are so small, it's just about impossible to get them flat again so just cut out another one and start again.

The ladder did NOT come off (or at least I wasn't taking it off) so sliding the numbers behind it was the way to go, and with microscale decals, they move around well as long as you keep it wet until it's in position. 

I've always used Solvaset from Walthers, but I dont use it full strengh. It gets thinned with the 70% isopropyl alcohol about 50/50. Its very strong straight up, and will distort thin stripes and very small lettering. I tried Micro Set and Sol, but went back to Solvaset. That's been my personal choice for 25 years.

The engine is next and it has 3 pairs of numbers to replace plus the number on the front of the boiler. I need to come up with some new names before starting all those.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Doug, Congratulations on your upgrades. Your engines must really rock!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

It's simple the bigger the magnet, the better the sound. It moves more air. Been playing music for over 40 years, I know speakers.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, there's a bit more to it than a big magnet. One of the key factors in good sound reproduction is the proper enclosure or baffle. That will make a huge difference in the quality and volume of the sounds. With the small speakers we use for model trains, a good baffle is key to getting good sounds. Doug's setup combined some nice speakers with an excellent baffle, and the result was some really good sound.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I agree John, but most people don't know what that is or what it does. My point was a good magnet will move the sound clearly.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, the magnet, the coil design, the cone design, and the baffle. All are important in maing good sounds.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Now that the roller stand is done, I can practice weathering steam engines. I don't have any old junkers to experiment with, so I'll just have to use this one.

















So far this is just 4 colors of Pan Pastels. Once I get the basic look of my photo examples, I'll.finish it off with the airbrush. Just before retirement she performed as Helper Duties only in 1957. 1956 was the last general service.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

After I read Gunrunnerjohn's last post. I went downstairs to run my Williams U33C that I can run TMCC and I noticed a cracking sound in the speaker when I turned up the volume and started the engine moving. 

Last time I heard a sound like that the speaker was blown. So I took the cover off and I noticed the cracking stopped when I pressed on the baffle, so I pulled the speaker out and put a little silicone around the rim of the baffle and the cracking stopped. 

Good thing too because I don't have any spare speakers laying 
around.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Laidoffsick, it looks good.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks Denny.... it's getting there. A few more things to finish up.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

WOW, I like it! 

Realistic models really improve with some weathering. It highlights the lesser details of the model. Your effort displays that well.

I think I may build one of those stands you made. Watched your Tube video and think I could have some fun with it.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Looks Great!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Doug, Great first effort on weathering! I have some Pan Pastels but haven't tried them yet. Did you just brush them on dry or do you use a wet brush too?

Pete


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

All the pan pastels were dry brushed on, no wet brushes. Just like using artist acrylics or oils, the type of brush makes all the difference for what you're trying to do. It's all about how much material do you want to apply and where.

Long soft bristles for basic dusting.

Short, thin, firm brush for doing lines or streaks.

Wide soft brush for blending.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Laidoffsick said:


> Now that the roller stand is done...


Hi, could you give me some details on its construction? Or maybe point me to a post where you discuss how you built it?

Thanks.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I posted a thread last week with the YouTube video on the roller stand.... here's the link

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=84057


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

Doug, you are killing me man. That looks spectacular. Congrats. First the better audio now a weathering treatment. WOW!


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I'd love to see more video on this upgrade. From the short clip posted it sounds amazing! It looks it too. Nice work!


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks Todd 

I put a 1 minute video clip on my Facebook page tonight. It's running onnthe test stand while I finished up the weathering. Facebook page is : O Scale Hauler

I will be doing a YouTube video once I can run it on the layout. I'll go through the entire upgrade process including all the work GunRunnerJohn did to it. I'll show it from the beginning when I bought 2nd hand to running on the layout but I'm headed to Santa Clara for the rest of the week to attend O Scale West.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Laidoffsick said:


> ... I'm headed to Santa Clara for the rest of the week to attend O Scale West.


Lucky Dog! :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Laidoffsick said:


> I'm headed to Santa Clara for the rest of the week to attend O Scale West.


No more complaints about us having York meets in the east.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Laidoffsick said:


> I posted a thread last week with the YouTube video on the roller stand.... here's the link
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=84057


Thank you.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Laidoffsick, I looked at your YouTube page, but I didn't see a video of the speakers you installed or did I overlook it. I would love to hear them.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

DennyM said:


> Laidoffsick, I looked at your YouTube page, but I didn't see a video of the speakers you installed or did I overlook it. I would love to hear them.


Page 3, post #23 of this thread has the clip.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

86TA355SR said:


> Page 3, post #23 of this thread has the clip.


Thanks I found it. It's a beast for sure. Sounds fantastic:smilie_daumenpos:.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Denny I haven't done a full upgrade video of the engine yet. It's on the to do list.

I posted a 1 minute video of the engine running on my roller stand, but it's only on my facebook page. I won't post on YouTube until the full video is complete.

FACEBOOK VIDEO LINK https://www.facebook.com/O-Scale-Hauler-1686130864955854/


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Looks good on the stand, but all that work in the smoke unit went up in smoke, it doesn't smoke at all.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

At the risk of sounding stupid, where is the chug sensor? In most steam engines it's on one of the wheels on the tender, but since your tender isn't moving I am perplexed. :dunno:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Funny you should ask.  Since I installed it, I can speak with some authority. It's my new chuff generator board. I don't have a picture of his install, but here it is in another steamer.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Had to turn the smoke off while I was working it. Smoke was so bad in my face my eyes caught on fire.... at least they felt like it. It smokes a tad 

Well the sensor used to be on a tender axle.... but Johns fancy upgrade moved it to the invisible flywheel lol It really has a flywheel, I just forgot it did, even though I looked right at it. When I bought this 2nd hand, it didn't chuff. After doing some homework on this older Sunset model, it was a common issue for the chuff to go out completely.

John has a thread in here somewhere ( the forum) about his new programmable, optical sensor, that mounts just above the flywheel and reads a tach tape.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Funny you should ask.  Since I installed it, I can speak with some authority. It's my new chuff generator board. I don't have a picture of his install, but here it is in another steamer.
> 
> View attachment 178209


A chuff generator board huh, that's got to be easier than lining up a sensor to a magnet. Will it work on any steam engine? I want to change the sound board on my Lionel Hudson. When I blow the whistle or ring the bell the chuffing stops and starts when they are done. It must be a older board.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The chuff generator will work for anything that uses a chuff switch, or at least all common applications. It was designed with the Super-Chuffer in mind, so it needs 5 volts DC, but I've already installed it for someone without the Super-Chuffer and just provided it 5V power.

The reason for creating the board is I got tired of the magnets and the mess of gluing stuff to the wheels and frame!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

You designed it?? That's fantastic!! I have always said with the combined knowledge of train operators, we could come up with our own electronics. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, it was to go along with my previous project, the Super-Chuffer.

It was introduced in this thread.

Super-Chuffer Smoke & Lighting Enhancement for O-Gauge Steamers


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I had thought about putting a Super-Chuffer in my Hudson, but I'm going to wait til York in October and look for a Legacy or TMCC streamer.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Go for it Denny, Super-Chuff away.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

If you get a TMCC steam engine, you'll want the Super Chuffer upgrade anyway 

And if you do that, then you might as well do his new chuff generator because the TMCC 2 chuffs per revolution just doesn't cut it


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

My thoughts too.


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