# The demise of the Legacy #990 command base and remote



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, It may be not such a rumor anymore. More like a forgone conclusion there will be no remote with the new system. Anyway, that's a non starter for me. Didn't like the DCS APP, won't be getting any system the forces me to use my phone to run trains.

With that said, anyone have experience repairing the #990 command base or remote? We don't know if Lionel will continue to repair these for free or at all going forward so it would be nice if someone in the community can share pointers on common problems and fixes.

I don't use my 990 command base for charging, I have the 993 for that which I think is a big plus for longevity of the command base.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I have opened both. Nothing much field repairable in either. My Cab2 just died. Lionel is still repairing them but no idea for how long.

Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

" More like a forgone conclusion there will be no remote with the new system. "

The cab-1L remote is going to be available going forward according to the leaked documents. The cab-2 (Legacy) won't be made but will function with the command base for the cab-3 system.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I have no experience with the cab-1L. It looks pretty simple/basic in comparison to the cab-2. For those of you who have used both, can you share your impressions? I use the cab-2 but I am a very basic user: throttle, horn/whistle, smoke on/off, couplers, etc. And I only run diesel engines. I'm wondering if the cab-1L might even be a better remote for a user like me...


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I'm definitely sticking with a remote regardless. Even the universal remote is preferable IMO. My biggest beef with the universal remote is the inability to turn the smoke off (and the inability to control non-BT/Atlas/3R).


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

beachhead2 said:


> I have no experience with the cab-1L. It looks pretty simple/basic in comparison to the cab-2. For those of you who have used both, can you share your impressions? I use the cab-2 but I am a very basic user: throttle, horn/whistle, smoke on/off, couplers, etc. And I only run diesel engines. I'm wondering if the cab-1L might even be a better remote for a user like me...


I use the CAB1L a lot of the time, but having the CAB2 around is nice. I prefer the CAB1L for visitors as if you drop a CAB2, it usually is very bad for it's health! I stocked up on remotes and even a spare command base for Legacy, and I have some spare TIU's and remotes as well. I figure I'll be able to ride out the storm of new stuff and phone links for some time...


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Projected MSRP for the cab-1L remote going forward is pretty reasonable at $170 or so according to what I've seen. So no need to rush out and spend $300+ on a used cab-2 unless you really want to.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I use the CAB1L a lot of the time, but having the CAB2 around is nice. I prefer the CAB1L for visitors as if you drop a CAB2, it usually is very bad for it's health! I stocked up on remotes and even a spare command base for Legacy, and I have some spare TIU's and remotes as well. I figure I'll be able to ride out the storm of new stuff and phone links for some time...


That's what I'm wondering, should I get a spare command base. I have two Cab2 and a Cab1L. decisions, decisions


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

So is the Cab1L a push button version where the Cab2 is LCD?


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Correct.
The why it matters is when you get into all the possible things you can control, say one of the legacy or TMCC cranes, the more advanced features of Legacy, to remember what button number corresponds to what function could be a problem. The super trick LCD icon button touchpanel that changes icons to match what you program for a specific car, engine, accessory, switch, or whatever makes it that much easier. But with anything tech- if you drop and damage that screen.
Example icons from the manual










So yes, I understand why people who do very little advanced functions and just run trains like the CAB-1L.
I'm not knocking it, heck, there are days at club I use the Cab-1L over the CAB2.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> That's what I'm wondering, should I get a spare command base. I have two Cab2 and a Cab1L. decisions, decisions


I was one of the individuals to be given a #990 system by Lionel when they first became available. A group of us were asked to evaluate the operation of the system. i kept it for a little while until the CAB1-L system became available.

i prefer the CAB1-L as it allows me to control most of the functions of both my steamer and diesels. I’ve never regretted getting rid of the #990. 

Also, I was able to buy the CAB1-L and an extra remote for $175 new which was another advantage I saw.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I typically just use my Cab1 most of the time. I think there are a few things a Cab2 can do that a Cab1L can’t like program different modes of an ERR system or Legacy itself. For ERR, R100 mode is preferable and when lashing up a TMCC version of the same Legacy engine programming that Legacy engine to TMCC mode works better. 
Two things existing systems won’t be able to do with the new engines is program more than 100 engines with unique IDs and initiate functions that will be added to the new engines. Not sure what they will be but a new N&W steam engine is supposed to have them.

Pete


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Cool. I'm going to pick-up a Cab1L.


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## KeithL (Mar 29, 2016)

Here's Lionel's official written announcement to dealers. (Someone on another forum posted it after it was shown to them at their LHS.)


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

IRV2 also. 😱


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm kinda amused how everyone was pissed that MTH discontinued the DCS remote because parts were hard to locate. Everyone thought they were lying. Now Lionel does the same thing and people somehow are less concerned. No idea why. But realistically it was bound to happen. I fully believe that components for the remote are obsolete and that designing a new one is cost prohibitive. Hopefully, in the future, there will at least be some kinda way to interface the app with a video game controller.

But it doesn't phase me. I still have a TMCC base and a spare, as well as a couple TIUs and remotes. I'll be fine.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

What might be interesting is the final functionality of CAB3.
Oh the fun begins- already deleting threads on the subject over yonder.

I've been trying to go over the leaked info.
Again, it's leaked info, so take this with a grain of salt, this is just a discussion.
Others said it and it does appear to be on the leaked pages, that you can control a Lionchief protocol engine with your existing Cab2 remote.
In order for that to happen, they would have to use Bridge code or functionality that mapped legacy and TMCC commands back to Lionchief protocol.
Further, it would mean the base was capable of bonding and pairing either bluetooth protocol or the proprietary Lionchief protocol directly to engines for this to happen.
The base would have to receive both 2.4Ghz proprietary CAB2/CAB-1L radio signal, and a separate Wifi transciever possible 2.4 and 5Ghz?
That's a heck of a lot of completely different radio transmission protocols, and then converting and transferring between each one.
The point is, isn't there prior art- working examples already in public domain of a legacy to lionchief bridge? First hit was 2016- but may be even earlier?





Anyway, the bulk of my thought was:
I find the claim to control lionchief from a legacy cab 2 dubious- as in the cab3 base.
I think what was more likely, was the iCab app or CAB3 app or whatever they call it, to be capable of controlling both via iCAB over WIFI and then bluetooth direct from the phone- which again leaves out early proprietary protocol Lionchief.

It's all speculation anyway. I'm just trying to wrap around what it actually is.
Also, the further leaked photos, didn't seem capable of charging a CAB2 remote.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Pretty sure with the new app, the screen changes when talking to Lionchief or Legacy to resemble their respective handhelds. I don’t think a Cab2 will control a Lionchief engine rather just the app on your phone. You will still be able to control Lionchief with your existing remotes, universal or dedicated. AFAIK Universal Lionchief remotes will still be available. No word yet of their demise.

Pete


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Isn’t technology grand? Lot of sarcasm there…


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I've got both the legacy base/hand controller and a bunch of LCS modules. I suppose it was inevitable legacy would be well "legacied" ... still if I ever put this stuff out again and the base or hand controller gives up the ghost -- I may just convert to DCC. But I've only got a handful of locomotives so it would not be too bad I think in terms of cost. And therein lies the problem.

On the fantasy end of the equation maybe this motivates someone to crack the base RF code and hand controller to base RF ... which I have a vague memory as being perhaps somewhat cracked by folks at one time? (there's a vid above which i didn't watch which suggests folks may still be at it..)

I know I had a fantasy about that myself and managed to capture some signal with one of those RF smart radio things at one time. But if I recall the base RF is very low wavelength whereas the handheld is near? to the cell network? Anyway -- it seemed it was hard to find a (cheap) smart radio that had the range. Well that was a couple of years ago. And then I said: "Wait a minute. I'm not being paid to do this -- who cares!?"

And put it aside...


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Severn said:


> …. I may just convert to DCC..


Many have done this.

Opinion-you’ll never look back. It’s very adaptable to technology changes, the standard system across all scales except in 3R (not casting stones). 

The support network is enormous. 

And though I like Lionel RS, the audio files in DCC are incredible, and, opinion, much better.

10-15 years, the new CAB 3 will be extinct. Then again, I could be too, haha.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Ok correction here. Jet was right in that it appears you will be able to control Lionchief engines with a Cab2. Expect a lot of buzz on new product Friday. Don’t ask, lips are sealed.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think my RR will do fine with the Legacy system and MTH DCS with the TIU. I can wait for this product to "mature" before considering it.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I have way to many years behind me to even think about dropping big bucks on another control system. My TMCC and DCS serves the purpose of running electric trains on my layout. Actually lately I have been running a lot more Postwar Lionel than I have for years.

Bill


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Actually I have dcc on my other scale unnamed. I would describe it as antiquated.

It's redeeming graces are: many vendors of dcc products, standard none own.

At this point it's so deeply lodged into the market I'm not sure how a replacement that's improved comes about.

But I wasn't arguing for you to change your Lionel or MTH items, I was just saying I might do it.


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

Severn said:


> Actually I have dcc on my other scale unnamed. I would describe it as antiquated.


DCC is just a standard. I agree that some vendors implementation leaves a bit to be desired but that is on them, not DCC. NCE has been stuck in the last century; Digitrax not far behind. Vendors could make a system that has an easy to use interface, but choose not to for cost or other reasons. Newer systems in Europe have advanced beyond NCE and Digitrax.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Not to bash but to gently criticize DCC. The codes are not standardized -- that's a key issue. And not separated from the track signaling. While generally the start, bell and horn are common -- the rest are not. And that's just by loose industry agreement. On the Lionel legacy handheld which I think is the better between them and MTH, all or most of the commands are mapped to buttons with an representative symbol (aka icon). The underlying commands are abstract-ish -- well this is all controlled by lionel -- but there's a bell command, a "whoosh" command and so forth -- more or less. In a way the commands are abstracted away from the implementation... whereas in DCC the commands are the codes. And this is tied intimately to the track signaling. This ties DCC forever to the track. Lionel has done something interesting by being able to move from Legacy which is this low freq RF, but move from that to the LCS serial line to also now the bluetooth. Pretty cool stuff. Meanwhile DCC is stuck with track signaling and I think its just about impossible to see a way out of it. It's true a few vendors sell their own wireless solution for example but we're back out of the standard again.

anyway i guess all that is what i mean by antiquated to me... On the plus side as I said, a lot of vendors of DCC and choices. Lot's of kind hand controllers, little vendor lock in. etc...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FYI...
Lionel BASE3 & CAB3.pdf


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## 3railbnsf (Apr 2, 2018)

KeithL said:


> Here's Lionel's official written announcement to dealers. (Someone on another forum posted it after it was shown to them at their LHS.)
> View attachment 574924


Odd, why wasn't the LCS WiFi module discontinued if the BASE3 has wifi built in?

Also, no DB9 port on the BASE3, is Lionel making sure those with a TIU will not be able to interface to the unit or will someone need to come up with a new cable for the USB port on the BASE3? Plus, no ethernet port for hardwiring it into your home network...


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

actually -- at least LCS continues. I have my modules and I've really wondered if it was popular enough to keep going. I got them because I wanted to program my engines to go this way or that... not really a product interest. I've not seen a big uptake and Lionel's probably made a little mistake in not just making the docs public domain. etc... although maybe they're probably trying to block total reverse engineering of their products.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Exactly what products are being discontinued.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

i think its the legacy base 990 and associated hand controller and IRV2 lcs module (maybe a few others) which is associated with sticking sensor track nodes i guess you might say in ross track or something of that nature. i have 1 of these I think in my pile on the shelf... I remember when that was announced a lot of people said "Ooooooh..."

anyway that hand controller with its nifty nobs and the pull down switches ... and symbols and all that, looks to be moving to a purely software app on your phone or some other supported computer device with a touch screen.

In theory with LCS someone could produce their own control device I believe.. originally Lionel supported the apple products and left the android products to the LCS partners, but I don't think that really took off that well.

But I admit I'm a little out of the loop these days.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see where they replaced the functionality of the IRV2 and the add-on sensor sleds. They just mention discontinuing them! In any case, this is a waiting game, it'll be months (years?) before this is really available.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

On their IRV2 and sleds as you call them. They just must not have sold that many, maybe. Considering how popular ross and gargraves are for example, I raised an eyebrow. But it may well be, no one is buying them but its part of their fastrack system -- so the sensor track stays there for now. If the new base supports LCS, then it must be something they want to continue for some reason.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Now I'm interested in pg 240 for LCS Product details!


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Seems to me that if you are not already into some form of command control it’s going to get rather expensive going forward.

The new base has rounded up a list price of $500 if you choose to run it with a physical remote one choice, at least for now, is the CAB-1L remote with a list price of $180. I don’t think at this time the CAB2 remote is available separately unless you buy a #993 expansion pac.

So if will cost $680 list price for a CAB3 base and a CAB1-L remote. The CAB2 option is even more expensive.

i think some people will revert to the secondary market to purchase some of the discontinued products.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Maybe it'll be discounted at the retailers a little but the pricing is reflective of just about a 1 vendor market in O... I mean MTH is defunct really. Atlas has some product, Williams which I think is pure DC -- and then you have the boutique guy or guys that produce maybe a small handful at a premium price. That's it. Lionel is owned by some kind of hedge fund I think. They're interesting in taking your money, that's about it.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

If I read the post correctly everything except the CAB1-L remote is being discontinued. Dave Olson stated elsewhere that the CAB1-L was in production but did not say wether it was the complete system or just the remote.

I guess by tomorrow everything will be explained.

BTW: Lionel has had component issues with the CAB2 for years but they were supposed to redesign it to incorporate some of the components from the CAB1-L. Guess that never happened.


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

Severn said:


> Not to bash but to gently criticize DCC. The codes are not standardized -- that's a key issue. And not separated from the track signaling.


I disagree with both those points but I don't want to derail this thread. Maybe in another thread!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

TJSmith said:


> If I read the post correctly everything except the CAB1-L remote is being discontinued. Dave Olson stated elsewhere that the CAB1-L was in production but did not say wether it was the complete system or just the remote.
> 
> I guess by tomorrow everything will be explained.
> 
> BTW: Lionel has had component issues with the CAB2 for years but they were supposed to redesign it to incorporate some of the components from the CAB1-L. Guess that never happened.


Just the remote. the 1L base is dead, Long live the 1L and Legacy command base.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Just the remote. the 1L base is dead, Long live the 1L and Legacy command base.


So, anyone who wants a CAB1-L system or CAB2 system should try to find them at a reasonable price. I did find a shop that listed on their website the #990. #993 and CAB1- L systems at some very good prices.

I sent an e-mail to them requesting a reply if this information was correct. Sometimes these websites are never updated promptly. If they have them in stock I’ll PM anyone interested.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> Just the remote. the 1L base is dead, Long live the 1L and Legacy command base.


The old Legacy command base will be no more, only this new monster. I'm wondering why the ISV2 and add-on is being discontinued?


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

I bought sealed, MIB, TMCC command base in the fall of 2018, which has been in regular use since. So my big question is how long will it last before I have to upgrade to this monster thing?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

lou1985 said:


> I bought sealed, MIB, TMCC command base in the fall of 2018, which has been in regular use since. So my big question is how long will it last before I have to upgrade to this monster thing?


My TMCC command base from 1999 is still going strong. Legacy command base no issues since I purchased but I hear a lot of units going back for repair. Mostly the charging circuit is the issue, hence I use the 993 for charging the remotes. Hope it last as long as I do but we all know how far Hope takes you.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

lou1985 said:


> I bought sealed, MIB, TMCC command base in the fall of 2018, which has been in regular use since. So my big question is how long will it last before I have to upgrade to this monster thing?


Hard to say how long that TMCC system will last. They were and still remain relatively bullet proof. 

At this point if you want to continue with a similar system, consider the CAB1-L base and remote. PM me and I will give you the website of a dealer who has the full CAB1-L systems in stock for $230 plus $11.00 shipping.

i already have the system but if it were me I’d consider upgrading.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

TJSmith said:


> Hard to say how long that TMCC system will last. They were and still remain relatively bullet proof.
> 
> At this point if you want to continue with a similar system, consider the CAB1-L base and remote. PM me and I will give you the website of a dealer who has the full CAB1-L systems in stock for $230 plus $11.00 shipping.
> 
> i already have the system but if it were me I’d consider upgrading.


In addition to the TMCC base on the layout I have another TMCC base on my workbench that I use for testing/tuning locomotives, so I think I'm good as far as a backup plan. I only have one Cab1, but I rarely use it. I have my TMCC base tied to my TIU with the MTH cable and just run DCS and TMCC locomotives with the DCS remote. I also have a separate DCS remote and TIU on my workbench, so I have backups of those as well.

I future proofed, just in case.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The Cab1s tended to fail in time. Usually related to the red dial giving no response. I think the late Dale Manquen reversed engineered these and would accept them for repair. I have a spare Cab1 and Cab2 but only one base for each.

Pete


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## FIS (Dec 31, 2017)

TJSmith said:


> So, anyone who wants a CAB1-L system or CAB2 system should try to find them at a reasonable price. I did find a shop that listed on their website the #990. #993 and CAB1- L systems at some very good prices.
> 
> I sent an e-mail to them requesting a reply if this information was correct. Sometimes these websites are never updated promptly. If they have them in stock I’ll PM anyone interested.


PM me if you find any info on any available cab2,


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I think it is time for Lionel to move on.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

I have my original 990 and it still work fine. Other than the initial upgrade it has never been back to Lionel. Since the Cab2 will work with the new Base3 I don't see me having a problem with remotes. One of the biggest issues I have with using the App is keeping it updated and supported. I'm a remote guy but I see the writing on the wall so I will do some transitioning to the app. Probably get a slightly larger device to use it on.

As far as size the unit isn't much bigger than the Legacy base although it's more landscape than portrait. I'll make the adjustment.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Does anyone think Lionel is making a mistake by not offering a CAB2 remote along with their new system?

I’m sure they did their homework but is there any data related to how many of their customers are using an app to control their trains.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm in no rush to buy this new BASE3, I don't know of anything substantial it'll bring to my party. I have no problem running my two LC+ 2.0 locomotives using my Legacy system, and I have no desire to run things with BT. Although I have the MTH and Lionel WiFi units installed, they're really for visitors as I use my trusty DCS and Legacy/TMCC remotes.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dave and Ryan have stated they have plenty of parts to fix these for years to come, so it will be a slow death of the Base/CAB2.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

TJSmith said:


> Does anyone think Lionel is making a mistake by not offering a CAB2 remote along with their new system?
> 
> I’m sure they did their homework but is there any data related to how many of their customers are using an app to control their trains.


It's probably components to make them more than anything.


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## MrGrinch (Sep 8, 2021)

Morning all, looking for some guidance. I have been slowly building up components for a new layout. Have power house and legacy power master. Next on my list was a controller. I plan on running legacy and conventional loco on my future layout. Based on the new CAB3 reveal, should I get a CAB1L/Base1L or a 990? Or will a 993 work with the CAB3?

thanks, B


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Well while I do not purport be be an expert except having used Lionel’s command systems since their initial introduction I’ll offer my opinion.

At this point it may be difficult to obtain a CAB1-L, #990 or #993 system at anywhere near MSRP. Even if you could find one. Lionel will discontinue all of them with the exception of the CAB1-L remote.

So, for about the same amount of money you can buy the CAB3 system along with a CAB1-L remote and you will have the most advanced system Lionel, so the say, has ever offered. I have not seen when the CAB3 base system will actually be available. So you may have a long wait.

I’m sure others will weigh in.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

MrGrinch said:


> Morning all, looking for some guidance. I have been slowly building up components for a new layout. Have power house and legacy power master. Next on my list was a controller. I plan on running legacy and conventional loco on my future layout. Based on the new CAB3 reveal, should I get a CAB1L/Base1L or a 990? Or will a 993 work with the CAB3?


The CAB2 remote will work with the BASE3, so you can plan on using that for the foreseeable future. The BASE3 is not in the shipping schedule until December, and that's very likely to slide into 2023, so you'll have a significant wait if you don't have a control system now. There was a #990 on eBay with about half an hour go to at $465, not too bad based on the other prices that ranged up to $800!


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## MrGrinch (Sep 8, 2021)

thanks ya’ll, for the inputs. waiting is not an issue as I cant start building anything until the Air Force moves me back to the states from Japan. So I’ve got a couple years to wait and just build up parts. 😁

I assume the Base3 will work with the powermaster to run conventional. Reading all the promo material it says it will work conventional just doesn’t say how.

Cheers, B


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

OK, so after reviewing the video demonstration with Dave, if I didn't want this thing before, I want it less now.




*Lionchief RF remote engines *(ones before bluetooth) *can only be used with CAB3 base IDs 2-9 
Also same for Bluetooth engines 2-9IDs*.

Paying $500 for 9 engine slot compatibility seems extra dumb IMO. You are taking away 9 slots (or however many you use up to 9) from the 98 available engine slots. Again, basic rules, TMCC IDs 1-98, because 99 is all engines. The new 4 digit addressing won't even be valid until you buy all new 4 digit engines not even released yet.



Only 9 engine ID slots for RF and Bluetooth that probably will not coordinate to physical cab number on the engine since restricted to IDs 2-9. At this point, doesn't that seem more of a gimmick than a polished feature?
You have to know if the engine is bluetooth or RF capable and choose the correct program switch on the base.
You need to have the base accessible- not mounted deep under the layout to access those switches.
You have to toggle them between run and program every time thus wear and tear on the slide switch, VS a momentary pushbutton to toggle into a temporary pairing mode with engine (the way the universal remote pairs).
*This will not solve range problems with RF or Bluetooth engines.*
CAB3 base is not a charging cradle for CAB2

*Keep in mind, a universal orange remote can control up to 3 bluetooth or RF engines at a time for only roughly $50 street price. *

Sure, that's not this one remote utopia, but a heck of a lot more practical and 1/10th of the cost.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

MrGrinch said:


> I assume the Base3 will work with the powermaster to run conventional. Reading all the promo material it says it will work conventional just doesn’t say how.
> 
> Cheers, B


Notes:
Original Powermaster works with the 27MHz radio signal from a CAB 1 or a Legacy Powermaster Bridge.
You would be better off getting the modern Legacy powermaster VS trying to get a bridge for an old one.
Kicker- the PowerMaster Bridge then requires an LCS SER2 and PDI cable to CAB3 because CAB3 does not have a serial port natively.
A TPC300 has a wired serial data input, and with the CAB3 base, that means buying a roughly $50 LCS SER2 module and another $9 PDI cable + still running the serial data wires out of the SER2 into the input of the TPC300

CAB3 really is a solution looking for a problem. Sadly, it's Lionels new only option creating more problems than it solves.

Again, relevant to the question- no, the CAB3 is just a base for sending command data, it does not in any way control track power. You need external add-on devices to control track power just as before.
TPC300 or TPC400- using a LCS SER2 module and PDI cable
Original Powermaster requires a Powermaster Bridge + LCS SER2 and PDI cable
Legacy Powermaster is a better choice.
ZW-C transformer is command capable but had some issue with Legacy signal unless upgraded. I would not recommend this option.
ZW-L is Lionels top of the line power source that is Legacy compatible.

The Big "L" is looking expensive these days!!
$500 CAB3 Base
Requires either a CAB1L remote, or CAB2 remote, or a tablet or smartphone running CAB3 app.
Most installs likely need an LCS SER2 and PDI cable, roughly $50+$9-$20 cable to give you a serial port for data connections that need serial command data. Either the old 2 wire format or 9 pin serial connector.
If you need to vary or control track power, some form of track power controlled device like a Legacy Powermaster or $700-$900 ZW-L. Yes, older devices like the original TPC300 or TPC400, and yes, the long road of adapters to even an original Powermaster is technically possible, but just doesn't make a lot of financial sense.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't see the point, if your Base2 is working just fine. I control my layout with a TPC300 connected to the Base2 via SER2 but I dont have any LC, LC+, or any bluetooth engines or will ever have. Like you said the four number address is for future releases, does nothing for everything already released. I don't have 98 engines, never will. Plus I have no desire to run my trains with my phone.

Yet we here people are pre-ordering this thing left and right, why? Is it we must have the latest and greatest? For me no thanks.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Agreed, and that's why I tried really hard to research my answers and comment to be as accurate as possible. Yes, Dave is trying to talk this thing up while explaining why they cannot build the previous Legacy systems due to components. The truth is, if those Legacy systems were being made, then the limited subset of users that would need the CAB3 base are somewhat limited. Because if you buy Legacy engines, especially a new $2100 Class A, and a $500 base, are you then really buying Lionchief engines? Worse, I get the one remote desire, but then you hand your grandson your now expensive CAB2 remote to control his Lionchief engine on your layout?

Also, let's talk about these limitations on address.
This is all just firmware stupidity. 
The firmware is what decides how an engine is displayed.
Yes, fully understand existing engines and a 98 engine limitation of valid ID slots of 1-98.
That said, could not a firmware in the remote, app, or base map a 4 digit ID and name to a 2 digit serial command data ID, and possibly multiple 4 digit IDs to one 2 digit command ID with different settings for each? Example you have 2 engines with 26 in the cab number, but one is a Legacy and one is a TMCC engine. If you set them both to TMCC radio ID of 26, the TMCC one will ignore Legacy commands because it cannot read them, and yes, in theory, the Legacy engine could read TMCC commands but just not run both engines at the same time.
Again, the Legacy base and even the new CAB3 base, the base holds this engine ID database.
We know firmware updates are happening for the CAB2, example 1.7.
The remote gets it display data from the base. We also know from the video, the base can even ID a Lionchief engine from it's internal database and then send name and cab number info to the CAB2 remote.

So the truth is, other than a firmware self induced limitation of the database, what is really holding back 4 digit address mapping? Sure, there could be some deep legacy backwards compatible reason, but again, I have to ask, why is not 4 digit display to 2 digit address mapping not a feature?


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Jetguy said:


> So the truth is, other than a firmware self induced limitation of the database, what is really holding back 4 digit address mapping? Sure, there could be some deep legacy backwards compatible reason, but again, I have to ask, why is not 4 digit display to 2 digit address mapping not a feature?


In fact the more I think about this, Lionel already created the problem- they just need to follow through with the solution(s).
Example, we do not know how they implemented 4 digit addressing other than saying the only engine capable is the new VL Class A.
This would imply the new database in the base is 4 digit capable. Does that also mean they need to update the computer side application Legacy System utility to then also correctly handle this new database?

Also, just the other day I grabbed the current iCAB app.* I distinctly remember getting a message that it had to UPDATE the base database* in my Legacy base since some engines were not yet named.
In other words- maybe that is the giant clue of how 4 digit addressing works?
Check this screenshot after I used the app to connect to my current legacy base.








*Suddenly, I'm noticing leading zeros on some but not all engine road numbers??*

Again, what happens in the future with a 4 digit capable engine?
New version of the LSU app?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you're bouncing off the walls prematurely in regard to the BASE3/CAB3. I choose to take a wait and see posture and watch how all this develops. Since I have several #990 sets and a number of Legacy CAB2's, I can afford to wait Lionel out. I personally think people are nuts to pre-order this thing until it's out and working on a bunch of layouts.

As far as the Bluetooth junk, I've made a conscious decision to ignore it's existence, I run Legacy, TMCC, DCS. All of those are tried-n-true and work great today and well into tomorrow.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

When is it's release date? Dec 2022 I think? Then you have a year or two of software upgrades to work the bugs out. Not to mention the APP issues that will come up.

So the question is what does the CAB3 get you over the Cab2 out of the box??? That's my only question. I'm sure someday I may upgrade due to a failure somewhere but not anytime soon. It was a decade before I got Legacy, and only after I purchased a legacy engine and my Cab1 were beginning to fail.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"CAB3 really is a solution looking for a problem. Sadly, it's Lionels new only option creating more problems than it solves."

Isn't the problem that the cab 2 and its Legacy base are no longer good long term solutions to operating Lionel Legacy and LionChief locomotives with one remote/app? It's not a solution to this week's problem but 2023 and later problems. Someone mentioned somewhere that the main problem is the cab2 handheld display screen, so discontinuing the base and the handheld may make sense. But I agree that not having a command base option between now and the Base 3 arrival this fall/winter is a serious problem for people who do not already have TMCC or Legacy. Yes we have no command bases .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm surprised they have a year's _limbo_ at least before they'll have a command system option!


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm surprised they have a year's _limbo_ at least before they'll have a command system option!


Agreed. I wonder if they were influenced by the assumption that MTH is no longer a serious competitor and, in any case, it is unlikely that they can provide DCS to anyone, anytime soon? If so, seems an unnecessarily risky assumption, even if the betting odds are considered long .


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I remember a discussion with Mike Regan when he was still with Lionel. The discussion took place in his office in Concord NC. It was the time that all of the #990 systems produced at that time by their Chinese supplier had major issues and were either recalled or not even sent to dealers.

Mike was on the phone with Bob Karas and I sitting in his office as he was negotiating the purchase of replacement components from a source in Europe. He found 2000 pieces and needed permission to put the charge on the Lionel issued credit card. The purchase was approved.

Mike said at the time that they were in the process of using some of the components from the new CAB1-L system in the next generation of the #990 system. Wether this happened or not I cannot say.

So, they continue to produce the #990/993 and CAB1-L systems.

Fast forward to 2022. The #990/993 systems along with the CAB1-L base are discontinued due to lack of components. They can still produce the CAB1-L remote. No mention of producing the CAB1-L base. 

Do they have the components to produce not just the #990 remote but also the CAB1-L base so they could offer a less expensive alternate to the forthcoming CAB3.

They will never answer that question because they want to sell their new system. I think they will turn off a number of potential customers who might have wanted a reasonable priced system.


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## JDaddy1225 (12 mo ago)

Honestly if they are not going to update the CAB 2 anymore and the CAB 3 is the next gen. than I am all in for tossing out the CAB 2. The LCD screen is dated, when the buttons are pressed multiple functions happen, it's hard to see the icons, and I'm tired of the out-of-range red LED flash. I am not paying more for a CAB 2 than the CAB3, so it's just time to move on. 
Remember when there was the announcement that Lionel would not produce the CAB 1 remote. Total mayhem... I just buy a dedicated IPAD for the layout and have it available on the layout fascia with MTH and the Lionel Apps.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

JDaddy1225 said:


> I just buy a dedicated IPAD for the layout and have it available on the layout fascia with MTH and the Lionel Apps.


That's a non-starter for me. Having a stationary control channel doesn't get it done, I want a walk-around remote. The iPad is too cumbersome to use as a remote. However, I have enough CAB2 and CAB1L remotes to see me through a lot of years.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Dave Olsen recently posted that you will be able to connect a TMCC Command Base to the Base3 so you can continue to use your Cab1 as you can now with a Legacy Base. Requires a null modem and 9 pin serial to USB adapter. A null modem is just a pair of DB9 male and female connectors with a few wires reversed.
I have no plans to get a Base3 as I have zero Lionchief engines and no need for Bluetooth but our modular club may be interested now.

Pete


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Sounds like the powers to be at Lionel have created a gigantic cluster something in their command control strategy. I will just keep plugging along with my DCS and TMCC systems.

Bill


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Jetguy said:


> OK, so after reviewing the video demonstration with Dave, if I didn't want this thing before, I want it less now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this 9 id slots really sucks for clubs


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

I picked up a spare 990 that was like new about 2 years ago for $200. Seeing the sky high prices now, so glad I got it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I never say never, but I sure won't be pre-ordering the BASE3. I'll let others sort out all the bugs and happily run my trains with the CAB2 and CAB1L talking to my Legacy command base.  If there comes a time when there's enough of a feature difference to change my mind, I'll consider the BASE3 at that time.


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## JDaddy1225 (12 mo ago)

I remember when the ZWL came out. Everyone said it would be plagued with issues, would be a flop, and would never sell. I have two now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've never owned a ZW-L. It's not that I think it's a bad transformer, it's just that I don't really have the need for variable power. 
All the power my layout tracks need...
For any occasional conventional running, I use the MTH TIU variable channels and the DCS remote.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I have a ZW-L and like it very much. It’s set to 18 volts for my two loops and I control it with my CAB1-L. 

The only thing I wish it had were Legacy PowerMasters instead of the conventional ones built into it. That would have given it much more ability to control MTH PS2/3 engines. Someone told me it was a programming issue and not a hardware issue but Lionel has never offered nor do I know how it could be upgraded.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've never owned a ZW-L. It's not that I think it's a bad transformer, it's just that I don't really have the need for variable power.
> All the power my layout tracks need...
> For any occasional conventional running, I use the MTH TIU variable channels and the DCS remote.
> 
> View attachment 576098


Question about the bricks, do they put out a constant voltage regardless of load or does the voltage output drop as the amperage draw increase? I use a Z-4000 to power my layout. I use all command control locomotives. I notice if I'm running a train with a high amperage draw (i.e. my incandescent lighted passenger cars) I have to adjust the transformer handle to try to keep the voltage between 17v and 20v. Just curious if the brick avoids that.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Prices on 990's are getting ridiculous. I saw a 990 on Ebay a couple of days ago for $935. I couldn't believe they were asking that much for it. Then this one popped up today. Sooooo glad I paid under $250 just the last couple of years for both the 990's I have.


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## RailNut (Sep 24, 2013)

Will the CAB1L controller work with the older cab1 base?


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

RailNut said:


> Will the CAB1L controller work with the older cab1 base?


No different frequencies


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## RailNut (Sep 24, 2013)

OK Thanks

Will the CAB1L work with the cab2 base?

Trying to come up with a back up plan for legacy locos. I have a cab1 that still works, a cab2 at Lionel for warranty. Just took delivery of a new Legacy Loco that has blue tooth and that was a unstable mess. Had hoped it would be more robust but its performance is limited to 5-8 ft or 1-2 minutes. Whichever limit you exceed first causes it to disconnect.


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## FIS (Dec 31, 2017)

RailNut said:


> OK Thanks
> 
> Will the CAB1L work with the cab2 base?
> 
> Trying to come up with a back up plan for legacy locos. I have a cab1 that still works, a cab2 at Lionel for warranty. Just took delivery of a new Legacy Loco that has blue tooth and that was a unstable mess. Had hoped it would be more robust but its performance is limited to 5-8 ft or 1-2 minutes. Whichever limit you exceed first causes it to disconnect.


Yes the Cab1L will work with the Legacy Base from what I understand.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Maxum said:


> Question about the bricks, do they put out a constant voltage regardless of load or does the voltage output drop as the amperage draw increase? I use a Z-4000 to power my layout. I use all command control locomotives. I notice if I'm running a train with a high amperage draw (i.e. my incandescent lighted passenger cars) I have to adjust the transformer handle to try to keep the voltage between 17v and 20v. Just curious if the brick avoids that.


Any transformer will have some voltage variance with load, and the bricks are no exception.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

RailNut said:


> OK Thanks
> 
> Will the CAB1L work with the cab2 base?
> 
> Trying to come up with a back up plan for legacy locos. I have a cab1 that still works, a cab2 at Lionel for warranty. Just took delivery of a new Legacy Loco that has blue tooth and that was a unstable mess. Had hoped it would be more robust but its performance is limited to 5-8 ft or 1-2 minutes. Whichever limit you exceed first causes it to disconnect.


Yes, the CAB1L will work with the BASE3, it's specifically mentioned as the only physical remote that Lionel is continuing except for the basic LC set remotes and the Universal LC remote. Your Legacy locomotive will work _*MUCH*_ better with any of the TMCC/Legacy command bases/remotes.


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## Realbstueck (8 mo ago)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I use the CAB1L a lot of the time, but having the CAB2 around is nice. I prefer the CAB1L for visitors as if you drop a CAB2, it usually is very bad for it's health! I stocked up on remotes and even a spare command base for Legacy, and I have some spare TIU's and remotes as well. I figure I'll be able to ride out the storm of new stuff and phone links for some time...


I've been in search of a base or cab 1l for a while now and was wondering if you'd be willing to sell one?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Realbstueck said:


> I've been in search of a base or cab 1l for a while now and was wondering if you'd be willing to sell one?


Nope, but I'll buy one if you have it.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Cab-1L is supposed to be produced by Lionel some time this year and is still catalogued. Charles Ro, for one, is still accepting back orders.


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## danrogjana (1 mo ago)

Will a CAB2 remote work with limited features using a CAB1L base? I ask this question because my CAB2 base has died and I have no way to control many thousands of dollars worth of Lionel Legacy and Vision Line Locos. My dilemma, Do I shelve my layout and wait for a Base3 miracle or get scalped for a used 990 set? I understand that engineering is a compromise between features reliability and cost and I view the CAB2 Legacy system as "near perfection". I am disappointed to learn that the term "Legacy" does actually refer to "old and obsolete". I do not view running my layout with a smart phone as progress! Lionel should have produced and improved the CAB2 remote and release same with the BASE3. And while doing so making CAB2 990 system hardware available.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

danrogjana said:


> Will a CAB2 remote work with limited features using a CAB1L base? I ask this question because my CAB2 base has died and I have no way to control many thousands of dollars worth of Lionel Legacy and Vision Line Locos. My dilemma, Do I shelve my layout and wait for a Base3 miracle or get scalped for a used 990 set? I understand that engineering is a compromise between features reliability and cost and I view the CAB2 Legacy system as "near perfection". I am disappointed to learn that the term "Legacy" does actually refer to "old and obsolete". I do not view running my layout with a smart phone as progress! Lionel should have produced and improved the CAB2 remote and release same with the BASE3. And while doing so making CAB2 990 system hardware available.


First off, send your base in for warranty repair- yes, THEY WILL DO IT.
Second no, buy a CAB1L remote as a backup, and wait for others to be the sucker on what is supposed to be CAB3.
Until it ships, until users actually have it, I'm done playing the BTO model, getting something years late, and then finding out I was over promised and paid for the "privilege" of another Lionel product.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Send your Legacy command base to Lionel for repair. They still have parts apparently, but not access to new production, which is why they are discontinuing the base 2, at least in part. I suspect costs are another factor. I would not pay sky high prices for a base 2 although perhaps you will find one for sale at a reasonable price. The cab 2 is the item most folks are interested in buying, since it will work with the Base 3. I don't know the answer to your question about the cab-1L base and cab 2 handheld. Lionel should know that answer.

This is a difficult time. MTH is in the act of fully disappearing at some point relatively soon (a handful of employees, all in their 60s or older, excepting Mike Reagan, who is parts only) and the availability of DCS in the next few years is uncertain. Lots of happy talk with no reality testing . Lionel is having difficulty sourcing parts and getting their next generation technology to market. Patience is about all one can counsel.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

At a local auction Saturday a sealed 990 system went for $605 including buyers premium. Not bad considering the high prices people seemly are getting.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

TJSmith said:


> At a local auction Saturday a sealed 990 system went for $605 including buyers premium. Not bad considering the high prices people seemly are getting.


Even then, that is almost 2X what the original price you could get a Legacy system for. I paid $350 for my original 990 set and the club got a deal for $315.
I'm just saying, the high prices have normalized the way people think and suddenly $600 is a good deal.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Jetguy said:


> Even then, that is almost 2X what the original price you could get a Legacy system for. I paid $350 for my original 990 set and the club got a deal for $315.
> I'm just saying, the high prices have normalized the way people think and suddenly $600 is a good deal.


Well what are people to do who want Command control/a real remote? Looks like the Cab3 is pushed to the end of 2023 or maybe beyond, who knows. No new TIU anytime soon. You are new to the hobby, want command to control those expensive engines and access all the features. You are stuck for at least a year or pay these high auction prices.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

neilblumberg said:


> This is a difficult time. MTH is in the act of fully disappearing at some point relatively soon (a handful of employees, all in their 60s or older, excepting Mike Reagan, who is parts only) and the availability of DCS in the next few years is uncertain. Lots of happy talk with no reality testing . Lionel is having difficulty sourcing parts and getting their next generation technology to market. Patience is about all one can counsel.


If MTH is disappearing relatively soon they certainly are releasing a lot of product almost daily. Either from the new MTH or from dealers that are adding their own creations to the company production runs.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

seayakbill said:


> If MTH is disappearing relatively soon they certainly are releasing a lot of product almost daily. Either from the new MTH or from dealers that are adding their own creations to the company production runs.


Product? They're releasing a lot of unique paint jobs on a small quantity of "product". As long as people don't get bored seeing the same locomotive or car painted in a hundred different roadnames, they'll survive. Personally, I'm tired of it already! 😕


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I was speaking a few years, not a few months. Say 5-10 tops. Mike Wolf says he is spending one hour a day on the company. Andy Edleman, the DCS team in Michigan, and Rich Foster are not going to work forever and when they retire, I'm guessing it's all over, pretty much. All of these folks are probably within a few years of retirement is my guess. Mike Reagan may be selling parts for 20 or even 30 years, but production of sets and track appear pretty much dead, and new tooling seems quite unlikely. We'll see, but for those who are thinking of a hobby for the next 20-30 years (not me ), MTH seems more than a little uncertain as a supplier. Just my take on reality.

I acknowledge that Lionel could disappear in a few years too. But that seems less likely, given their history and apparent current viability.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Product? They're releasing a lot of unique paint jobs on a small quantity of "product". As long as people don't get bored seeing the same locomotive or car painted in a hundred different roadnames, they'll survive. Personally, I'm tired of it already! 😕


Seems like a lot of folks are not tired of it John.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

seayakbill said:


> Seems like a lot of folks are not tired of it John.


Maybe not, but give them a little time. Not that I did say *I* was tired of it, I didn't say everyone. However, how many of one locomotive type can you stand, especially since many of them are actually fantasy schemes, roads that never had the engine in question.


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