# Miss My Trains



## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Well this is the first winter that we've stayed home in a very long time since I retired in 2006. My plan was to run trains & do scenery but unfortunately I didn't realize that the basement would get so cold. It's 2000 sq. feet and a balmy 52 degrees. I have a couple of small portable heaters that warm up my work bench area but do nothing for the rest of the area.
The house has forced hot air (which I hate) but that's a saga for another time. I'm going to have the furnace guys come up in the spring & see if the furnace is big enough to add a couple of trunks to it for the basement and help the temperature down there. I've looked in to those Mitsubishi heaters but they would have to drill into the sill or concrete and I dont want that,
Unfortunately I have no windows in the basement and therefore I can't add a window or two unit.
So that's my dilemma, Any other ideas??


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Does your furnace have hot water, or just air? We have forced air in portions of our house, but also in-floor heating in others, and since we have hot water we installed some radiant heat in the basement, which would help in your situation.

In-floor would be the best, but you probably don't want to jack up the floor


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

The hot water is separate which comes from a hot water electric heater.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Waaay back when I had a house in Chicago with a basement, insulating and drywalling the walls raised the basement temperature 10 degrees.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Spence said:


> The hot water is separate which comes from a hot water electric heater.


If the waters hot, why do you need to heat it?  Courtesy of George Carlin.

What I meant was does the furnace heat water, or just air? Our's heats water, which is then run through a heat exchanger to provide the forced air.... 

But, I understand that you don't have hot water from the furnance, and your domestic hot water comes from a water heater.... so radiant heat is out, unless you want to add more stuff.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd probably be looking at a solution that doesn't require you to use the main furnace as that will not allow independent control of the heat. FWIW, the ductless units you mention require one fairly small hole, is that really a major concern? If so, I'm curious why you think this is a problem?

FWIW, I went with a Carrier ductless heater, the same idea as the Mitsubishi unit you mention. I have independent control of the heat and A/C for the basement, which I think is mandatory IMO.

BTW, I think the idea of insulating the basement is sound, that makes a huge difference!


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

My basement is unheated.

For the winter, when it gets down to the mid 40's down there sometimes, I keep a small "oil filled" electric heater near the train layout (where I'm generally close to it). That takes the chill off.

I also put on my winter coat -- like I did when I worked "the big engines".

Works for me...


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Put a box fan at the top of the stairs leading to the basement. That will force the air from above into the basement. The temperature should stabilize in a couple hours. If you are able, even mount the fan into an opening you can cut in the door.

Dan


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

A separate heating unit is your only answer. You want to be able to heat that space when you're there, and turn it off when you're not, assuming it won't freeze in the winter. Otherwise you're heating everything all the time. And I doubt your existing furnace is large enough to add that many cubic feet to its load.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

John I can’t seem to find the square footage covered by one of those units and if so how many units (BTU’S) would I need?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

AmFlyer said:


> Waaay back when I had a house in Chicago with a basement, insulating and drywalling the walls raised the basement temperature 10 degrees.


+1. Another option are foam panels. Just use a construction adhesive to adhere to the wall. But they are pricey compared to fiberglass rolls. Also, you don't have to use sheet rock. You can just use studs and leave the exposed fiberglass paper backing. Or sheet rock another year ...

And the increase in temperature is free after installation costs. And no maintenance.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If it was 100* outside, a balmy 52 degrees would be nice down there. 

My basement is like that on a hot summer day, nice and cool.

I have a natural gas heater with vents in the basement. 
On real cold days it is cold down in the dungeon. I have an portable electric heater that puts out heat by the table area.

It warms up the area nice, but I prefer it to be a little colder then real hot anyway.

I never actually checked the temperature down there, I will have to see how cold it gets.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

radiant electric baseboard heating - no ducting to the outside is needed.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Big Ed said:


> ...
> 
> My basement is like that on a hot summer day, nice and cool.
> 
> ...


My 92 year-old, mostly finished basement is 2/3 below ground and has virtually no insulation. Just paneling on furring strips. It's nice and cool in the summer. And a back section getting my layout has the natural gas furnace for hot water baseboard heating. Though there's no radiators in that section it's more than comfortable in the winter.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

For a 2000 sq. ft. non-insulated basement in the Northeast, heating efficiently is difficult. In our house in Pennsylvania I had drywall and blown in insulation. The basement was about 1300 sq. ft. I had two forced hot air vents on each side of the basement. On really cold days the best I could get was 65 degrees. Mostly because once the upstairs was warm the heater would shut off. 

I supplemented that with one of those Amish built electric fireplace heaters in the center of the basement. That helped with raising the temperature a bit. 

In the summer, with the air conditioner running I had to close the vents. The temperature would stay around 65-68 degrees but most times I left them open to help control humidity along with a dehumidifier. Sometimes I did get condensation dripping from the ductwork above the drop ceiling. 

Spence, for the size of your basement, if you want to avoid construction mess and cost, a couple electric space heaters may help.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Spence said:


> John I can’t seem to find the square footage covered by one of those units and if so how many units (BTU’S) would I need?


My son recently bought a house, and it has those stand alone natural wall heaters in the living room and dining room. It keeps the house very toasty. He also has 1 unit in the basement. The basement wall are insulated,only 3 of them, and he keeps that thermostat set at around 60 degrees. That basement is TOASTY!!! You can go down in the basement with shorts and a t-shirt and be very comfortable..Here in upstate NY the units are around $1200, plus installation.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

flyernut said:


> My son recently bought a house, and it has those stand alone natural wall heaters in the living room and dining room.


What is a "natural wall heater", and what provides the actual heat?



Spence, clearly you'll probably need a lot of heat if you don't insulate the basement at all. Even minimal insulation like some 2" foam would be a major improvement.

FWIW, most of my basement is insulated and fully finished, but I have a back room workshop that does not have insulation. There is a pair of double doors that closes off the unfinished workshop area. I have a dual thermometer that measures right outside the door and inside the unfinished workshop area. The differential is 5-6 degrees, and the doors are not even close to sealed, there are gaps between them and at the bottom. I'm sure when I get around to sealing those doors better, the differential will be even greater.

Time to consider insulation.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What is a "natural wall heater", and what provides the actual heat?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Natural gas"....


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

A $15.00 box fan will solve your problem and save you thousands that you can spend on new train equipment.

Dan


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

flyernut said:


> "Natural gas"....


OK, "gas" was a noticeable omission!  Obviously that solution only works if he has natural gas to the house! He didn't mention gas, only forced hot air, so I figure we have to ask.



Panther said:


> A $15.00 box fan will solve your problem and save you thousands that you can spend on new train equipment.
> 
> Dan


Truthfully Dan, I'm not sure a fan is going to move enough heat down there without other measures. Trying to heat 2,000 sq/ft of uninsulated basement with a box fan isn't going to cut it, at least IMO.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Natural gas radiant heater(s)?


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I live out in the country. No natural gas. Well water and septic system.
It's going to be real tough to insulate because all of my bench work is nailed into the concrete with a 22 nail gun. I'm going to have to cut and fit it up to the 2x4's and seal those joints. Plus getting to that below the table is going to be tough what with shelves and all sorts of stuff on them but that's what i'm going to attempt to do before anything else is done.
If I have those Carrier units installed I don't knoe how there going to be able to get to a couple of walls but I'll cross that bridge later.
Thanks for all of the advice. I certainly wish I had thought of this when I was prepping the basement!!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Spence, insulation above the table will be the biggest benefit if the basement is mostly underground. Ground gets warmer as you go down, if you can put the foam at the top and also insulate inside where the joists meet the base plate, that will make a huge difference. Obviously, you only have to insulate the ceiling if there is unheated space above it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Spring will be here soon, Phil said so.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

You are doing the right thing by insulating. And I agree with John that it’s more important to insulate the part of the wall that is above ground level (or closer to ground level). Thermal conductivity of concrete can range from around .5 to 1 BTU/ (ft h F). For extruded polystyrene it’s about .04 to .06. Whatever you can do to reduce the uninsulated heat transfer surface will help. Pick the low hanging fruit first and see how that helps.

My layout is in the attic with about 700 square feet of heat transfer surface (through the roof and one gable end wall), but everything is insulated. Currently, at 39 degrees outside, it’s about 55 degrees in the attic. Using a 1500-watt space heater, I can get the train room comfortable on all but the coldest days. I generally set the heater to cycle at 72 degrees. Otherwise it would get too hot. Assuming your basement is more or less square, your walls are 8’ high and the floor above is heated space, your heat transfer surface through the walls is about 1400 square feet (about twice mine).


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ... and also insulate inside where the joists meet the base plate, that will make a huge difference. ...


In my 92 year-old house, that is where the most heat is lost in the basement - right at the base plate. I started stuffing the rolled insulation between the 1st floor rafters right at the base plate. That made a huge difference (but it's a leaky house).


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

All I see are expensive and timely solutions.
I suggested a simple very low cost solution that I know will work.

It is your money, so spend it as you see fit.

I will say one thing, If you go buy a 24" box fan at Walmart, set it at the top of the stairs to your basement. The door will need to be open. Check the temperature in the basement, after 2 hours or less if you do not see a significant increase in the temperature in your basement, I will send you the price you paid for the fan. Just keep the receipt.

Dan


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Panther said:


> All I see are expensive and timely solutions.
> I suggested a simple very low cost solution that I know will work.
> 
> It is your money, so spend it as you see fit.
> ...


No question about it. A box fan will move heated air into an unheated space. I sometimes use one in the winter to start things on their way to a comfortable temperature in the attic train room. I’ve also used one in the summer to blow air-conditioned air into the stupid hot attic when I just had to get something done.

But if you are going to spend appreciable time in the attic or basement, insulation is a good investment.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> No question about it. A box fan will move heated air into an unheated space. I sometimes use one in the winter to start things on their way to a comfortable temperature in the attic train room. I’ve also used one in the summer to blow air-conditioned air into the stupid hot attic when I just had to get something done.
> 
> But if you are going to spend appreciable time in the attic or basement, insulation is a good investment.


I agree, all of the above suggestions will work. I just happen to be thrifty. In some circles they call that cheap.

Dan


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Panther said:


> I agree, all of the above suggestions will work. I just happen to be thrifty. In some circles they call that cheap.
> 
> Dan


One could argue that you are possibly not saving any money in the long run. You're going to pay for that heated air, one way or the other. How long will it take to recoup the cost of the insulation, I do not know.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Panther said:


> I agree, all of the above suggestions will work. I just happen to be thrifty. In some circles they call that cheap.
> 
> Dan


Frugal works.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Panther said:


> I agree, all of the above suggestions will work. I just happen to be thrifty. In some circles they call that cheap.
> 
> Dan


I don't see that as "thrifty". You haven't addressed the basic reason the basement is cold! All you're doing, assuming it is even effective, is pouring heat into an uninsulated space. It might be "cheap", but I'd stop short of calling it "thrifty". 

Truthfully, I seriously doubt that a box fan at the top of the stairs blowing 70 degree air into a 2,000 sq/ft uninsulated basement is going to make a significant dent in the temperature.




Panther said:


> I will say one thing, If you go buy a 24" box fan at Walmart, set it at the top of the stairs to your basement. The door will need to be open. Check the temperature in the basement, after 2 hours or less if you do not see a significant increase in the temperature in your basement, I will send you the price you paid for the fan. Just keep the receipt.


Please define "significant". If you're talking about a couple of degrees, probably. If you're talking about raising the temperature from 52 degrees to the mid 60's, I'll have to call BS! He's already stated that a couple of space heaters don't do much for the whole space, and a typical 1500 watt space heater is putting out almost 5,000 BTU's of heat. So, 10,000 BTU's doesn't make a significant dent, there's no way I can imagine that trying to blow lukewarm air down the stairs is going to be more effective. What it will do is cool the rest of the house, probably an unintended side effect.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Spence said:


> I live out in the country. No natural gas. Well water and septic system.
> It's going to be real tough to insulate because all of my bench work is nailed into the concrete with a 22 nail gun. I'm going to have to cut and fit it up to the 2x4's and seal those joints. Plus getting to that below the table is going to be tough what with shelves and all sorts of stuff on them but that's what i'm going to attempt to do before anything else is done....


I see your problem from your videos, the layout spanning the walls. So I think your best bet is foam panel insulation.

The panels are easy to cut to fit around the existing infrastructure and you can paint them prior to installation (heck, you could create scenic backdrops on them).

At 1/2" to 2" thick they're thinner than a nominal 4" thick stud wall and can be shaved or shaped where train clearance is a problem.

They're light to maneuver into position and can be stuck to the wall with construction adhesive. That minimizes the ongoing "foot traffic" on the layout to install them. And they can be installed a bit at a time working around the existing, as is, bench work.

How ever you generate heat (oil, propane, electric), insulation is the key.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Spence, I had a similar situation in New Hampshire. I paid an insulation contractor to spray foam my rim joist around the entire perimeter of my basement. That was about 10 years ago. The basement was 60x26 or a little over 1500 square feet and it was $500. The spray foam was in his truck out in the driveway. He just snaked a hose through the house and down the stairs. It took no time at all.

The are a couple advantages to spray foam over fiberglass batts: 1) spray foam stops air movement. Fiberglass does not. And 2) rodents don't nest in it. The third advantage for me was *I didn't have do it*. 

There's a DIY version of this. You could buy many cans of Great Stuff spray foam and a few of 4x8 sheets of 3" thick XPS. Cut the XPS into rectangles that fit your bays between your floor joists. Then you spray a bunch of Great Stuff up against the rim joist and press your XPS rectangle up there. Voila!

That's a lot of time and effort and the materials aren't cheap. Last time I checked, 3" XPS was about $35/sheet at Home Depot. So I'd definitely look into having someone do it for you.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I have heating ducts in my basement that help a little and a electric floor heater that oscillates, when it really cold it's not much. My house is very old and there's no insulation in the basement.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Tom_C said:


> One could argue that you are possibly not saving any money in the long run. You're going to pay for that heated air, one way or the other. How long will it take to recoup the cost of the insulation, I do not know.


Last I recall, heat rises, exactly how will you get the heat into the basement ?

Dan


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Panther said:


> Last I recall, heat rises, exactly how will you get the heat into the basement ?
> 
> Dan


What exactly are you asking me? I'm indirectly talking about the cost of insulation.

ADDED: I'm also not saying the choice is either/or. I'm simply pointing out that the cost of the fan solution isn't just the cost of the fan.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Spence, you can figure about 15 BTU's per square foot of floor space to raise the temperature from 50 to 70. I would opt for an electric heat pump split system with two wall units in your space. The penetrations to outside would only have to be large enough to accommodate the refrigerant and electrical lines, connecting the two indoor units to the outdoor condenser.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

In addition to what Bob says, you would really only need one penetration, depending on where the outside unit is. You could run the lines for the second inside unit up in the joists of the unfinished basement. Two 18,000 BTU units would probably do the job well.

Here's where my split unit comes out, the line goes down and along the ground in a conduit over to the outside unit. There is another inside unit in the loft on the 3rd floor.


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## Elwood (Aug 3, 2019)

Spence
You mentioned your dislike of your forced air heating system..........Have you tried turning on the furnace fan full time? (Also known as "continuous air circulation") After a day or two, you will not notice the furnace running, and your house will feel much more comfortable (no more cold or warm spots). I have run our furnace fan for 30+ years, 24/7 365 days per year and it's great. Our house is both heated and cooled in Wisconsin. 
Along with this, a couple of air outlets in the basement, and a return air inlet to the furnace should greatly improve your basement conditions. A bonus is lowered humidity levels in the basement in the summer.
Insulation, certainly will help.
Robert


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## jta552 (Jan 20, 2015)

*Heaters*

You could go with a suspended heater like what is used in a garage. It would handle that much space with no problem but you need a gas line and a vent. They also make them in electric but they are not as economical to operate.


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## lorettospringfield (Feb 18, 2015)

I have a non insulated basement myself. The house has a furnace which is propane installed in the basement. All I did was cut the copper line coming in from the tank added a 3 way connector and run a separate line to another propane floor heater. The heater I bought is a 30,000 B.T.U'S the furnace in the house itself is 100,000 B.T.U'S. It has auto fan built in and I can go work on my layout and turn the furnace up and it will come on and warm up the basement nicely. I placed an old sleeping bag on the floor because the dogs like to come down and lay by the heater. When I am done working I just turned the stove back down and just keep the pilot light lit until next time, the fan will cut itself off. I would like to install a wood stove down there and run the pipe out one of the windows but for now this works.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Elwood said:


> Spence
> You mentioned your dislike of your forced air heating system..........Have you tried turning on the furnace fan full time? (Also known as "continuous air circulation") After a day or two, you will not notice the furnace running, and your house will feel much more comfortable (no more cold or warm spots). I have run our furnace fan for 30+ years, 24/7 365 days per year and it's great. Our house is both heated and cooled in Wisconsin.
> Along with this, a couple of air outlets in the basement, and a return air inlet to the furnace should greatly improve your basement conditions. A bonus is lowered humidity levels in the basement in the summer.
> Insulation, certainly will help.
> Robert


What Robert says is very true. In addition to his recommendations, if you decide to use them, here are some things you can do. 

If there are return air openings in your rooms throughout the house, close all interior doors. If you have ceiling fans, run them continuously. Add at least two additional supply air openings in the basement. Add one additional return air opening very near the furnace return air connection. This opening should be at least 12 x 6, and be in the duct ahead of the filter. Leave the door from the house to the basement open. The law of physics is that warmer air always migrates to colder air. In addition to this law, you are creating an airflow pattern of air traveling to the basement through the corridor of the house and basement stairwell. If you do not have return air openings in every room leave the interior doors open. The house will become a large plenum and the air will be drawn down the stairs warming the basment. 

The end result will be a constant draw of house air that has been heated and is still warmer than the basement air. It will also result in the basement being under a very slight negative pressure relative the remainder of the house. Within 24 hours, you should see a leveling out of the temperatures throughout your house, including your basement.

It will not require any large expenditures, just the cost of some 6" furnace pipe, some supply air registers and a return air grille, and perhaps some aviation snips if you don't already have any. 

This will work and your basement should become much more tolerable as far as temperature. You can also use some oil-filled electric resistance heaters (DeLonghi makes some rather nice ones) in the basement . I run one in my train room, year round, just to keep the basement a couple of degrees warmer. I run it on the lowest setting (650 watts) and it does a nice job. I run it in the summer to help with reducing the damp feeling. I also use a dehumidifier in the summer, but that is another discussion that we already have had more than once here. 

Okay, I know much of this stuff, because regulating and adjusting airflow from HVAC systems was my business, and temperature and humidity were a great part of that business.


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## NewTexan (Apr 29, 2012)

*BTUs*

To calculate BTUs you need to know the surface area of basement walls exposed to the outside air. The rest of the basement wall area and floor area will be exposed to a fairly constant temperature averaging about 45 to 50 degrees. Using 45 degrees and the area of the floor and walls not exposed to the outside air you do one BTU calculation. Then do a second BTU calculation for the wall area exposed to the outside air. Combine these and you will get the number of BTUs you need for the unit. Use a mean winter temperature for the outside air calculation. Here is the formula: Heat Loss (H) = Area (A) times Transmission factor (U) times Difference in temperature (dT). The R value for concrete is about 0.15 per inch of thickness. Walls are usually 8 inches thick giving an R of 1.2; floors about 4 inches thick have an R of about 0.6. The U value is the inverse of the R value or 1.67 for the floor and 0.83 for the walls. You can see why insulating your basement walls will make a huge difference in the size of the heating unit required.


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## NewTexan (Apr 29, 2012)

*BTUs one more note*

The soil temperature below the floor will average about 55 degrees so if you don't insulate the floor not much heat will be lost there in any event -- don't forget that heat rises! A simple indoor/outdoor carpet will keep your feet off the cold surface, you don't need anything more.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Excellent post NewTexan. Always enlightening to have numbers tell the story.

So 2" foam panels with an R value of 10 would cut the BTUs needed by a factor of 9.33 for the walls.

And Beachhead2's comment about insulation the at the sills is key - That's :"low hanging fruit" for correcting heat loss.


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

super easy heater, mount an old 1200 watt hairdryer on a tripod, moves an incredible amount of air and REALLY makes a difference in an unheated room.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BENZ TRAINZ said:


> super easy heater, mount an old 1200 watt hairdryer on a tripod, moves an incredible amount of air and REALLY makes a difference in an unheated room.


Well, it might make a difference in a small room, but in an unheated and uninsulated 2,000 sq/ft basement, it'll be like spit in the ocean! Also, since hair dryers are not made for continuous duty, it's probably a bit on the dangerous side as well.


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

john you seem to be an "expert" on everything anyone posts, you have no idea what your talking about...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ben, I post on issues that I do understand. 

If you think that putting 4,000 BTU of heat in a 2,000 sq/ft uninsulated basement is going to make a significant difference, I suggest that maybe I'm not the one that has no idea what they're talking about.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I don't see that as "thrifty". You haven't addressed the basic reason the basement is cold! All you're doing, assuming it is even effective, is pouring heat into an uninsulated space. It might be "cheap", but I'd stop short of calling it "thrifty".
> 
> Truthfully, I seriously doubt that a box fan at the top of the stairs blowing 70 degree air into a 2,000 sq/ft uninsulated basement is going to make a significant dent in the temperature.
> 
> ...


John;

Have you ever tried my solution ?

John with all due respect, all of the calculations, and theories are overthinking a simple problem.

There is a very simple and easy explanation for why space heaters do not work in that scenario.They are called space heaters for as reason. They heat SMALL SPACES.
The heat comes out of the heater and goes to the ceiling and dissipates in a large area. 
In a small area the heat fills from the top down to the floor area. The heat does not have time to completely dissipate before the entire say BATHROOM is heated. 
The box fan will blow and distribute the warm air into the entire room and mix it with the cold in the basement. Blending the air is what works, not just introducing warm air at the floor. Yes if you stand in close proximity to the space heater you will get warm, but 2 feet away you have cold air.

I find solution to common problems because I'm cheap. I mean I spend as little as possible.
Like I said, if the OP follows my instructions and if it does not work, I will pay him back for the fan. Can anyone else offer any form of guarantee ?

I offer a guarantee......

Dan


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I don't see that as "thrifty". You haven't addressed the basic reason the basement is cold! All you're doing, assuming it is even effective, is pouring heat into an uninsulated space. It might be "cheap", but I'd stop short of calling it "thrifty".
> 
> Truthfully, I seriously doubt that a box fan at the top of the stairs blowing 70 degree air into a 2,000 sq/ft uninsulated basement is going to make a significant dent in the temperature.
> 
> ...


I will say within 1 hour, the basement will be within 5 degrees of the area where the fan is pulling air from.

Dan


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

One more for the 10,0001 ways to use cloth tape book. 

Now if you had a 100 of those hair dryers going that should heat up the whole basement nicely.

One could walk around in their underwear to work on the trains.
Hmmm,
I guess with a 100 going, underwear would be optional.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

Spence, I think I'd be looking into either


a propane ductless wall heater or a more decrative propane log fireplace. 









or the mini split








I have a friend that comfortly heats his ranch house basement 34'X60' with the propane fireplace. He has insulated joist with drop ceiling tile.

But definately insulate where your joist sit on the sill.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Panther said:


> I will say within 1 hour, the basement will be within 5 degrees of the area where the fan is pulling air from.
> 
> Dan


I think you're approach would help if not solve the issue. Seems similar to adding air returns near the furnace to draw warm air down to the basement as Elwood suggested.

But that or any additional heating apparatus doesn't overcome the lack of insulation and the resulting inefficiency: the waste of energy and money. 

Newtexan's post detailing the numerical science of insulation demonstrated how important it is: approaching/exceeding an order of magnitude less energy required to keep heat in with proper insulation.

In Spence's situation - his extensive layout permanently attached to the concrete walls - I wouldn't want to start tearing it away from the walls. Moving the bench work is a huge undertaking. Restoring the train layout, scenery and all is a lifetime of work. 

So, as an engineer, if I were in Spence's dilemma, I'd implement a plan in stages, prioritizing improvements and ascertaining the results before moving on to the next stage. 

First stage: I liked Beachhead2's post suggesting foam at the sills for two reasons; sills are exposed to the cold outside air and wind. And they can be very leaky. They are likely the worst culprit in heat loss. In my similar situation, I cut and stuffed rolled pink insulation between the rafters at the sills. Did a world of good.

Next up (as GRG mentioned) is the upper walls. They are either exposed to cold air or are in the earth's freeze zone (Spence is located in CT after all). And for that I see foam panels glued to the concrete walls. They come in 1/2", 1", 2" and 3" thick varieties. Thicker panels on unobstructed walls and thinner panels where the existing layout has little clearance. Even a 1/2" foam panel will cut heat loss by ~ 4 fold. I'd paint them before installation to minimize traffic on the layout itself.

Lastly, insulating walls under the layout. But my guess is that won't be needed given some auxiliary heat source. 

If you pick and choose your battles wisely, you can obtain excellent results minimizing cost, effort and, most importantly, disruption to the layout.

BTW: After implementing a major stage, like insulating the sills, then I'd use Panther's box fan to ascertain results. I would wait to consider additional heating needs after insulation has shown it's worth.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Up where I am , the frost line can be as far down as eight feet, below the level of the basement floor ... In any case the walls and floor are insulated ,as the basement is finished and better than half is also carpeted ..


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## dbrodmerkel (Dec 28, 2015)

*Basement heat*



Panther said:


> I will say within 1 hour, the basement will be within 5 degrees of the area where the fan is pulling air from.
> 
> Dan


Electric baseboard heat with a well insulated floor and walls is the way to go.


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## dbrodmerkel (Dec 28, 2015)

Electric Baseboard heat is the best way to go after you well insulate the walls and floor. simple system with a control in the basement. it would require 220 volts most likely.


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