# First set. Norfolk Southern, where and how big?



## Area57 (Nov 8, 2015)

Hi. I have been wanting to build a train set for quite some time, so I finally went and bought the starter set yesterday. A basic N scale Bachmann NS diesel locomotive with a caboose and coal car and tank car.

I have a big basement with the possibility for good lighting. Space is not an issue, although I would rather have a really nice train set that was 4X6 than cover a room with an unfinished project.

I was thinking I would go to Home Depot today and get a rectangular piece of plywood and cover it with pink foam, then put terrain over that and then track. That can be my basic layout.

What size would you recommend? And where would you recommend? I have a map of where NS goes. I'm more of a northern person, so my first thoughts are either Pennsylvania or Ohio.

I was think it would go through a bit of country side, and maybe past one farm, than into a small town, where it loads the coal, but doesn't show any actual coal mining activity. 

The town could be pretty small, with maybe several houses, and a diner, gas station, hardware store etc. And the place to load the coal.

I'm thinking 1960's, maybe 1950's. Rolling hills but not mountains. Definitely a small river there somewhere with a little bridge for the train to cross. I'm also open to a tunnel on the back somewhere, although not a necessity.


What do you think? How big of a board should I get to make this on? What do you put the boards on? A card table or two? What is a good height to work on?

As far as the scenery goes, have any of you seen or made anything like this? Or neighboring states like Indiana Michigan or New York? I don't want to bite off more than I can chew with this attempt and keep it within my abilities, which aren't much. Thanks.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Questions*



Area57 said:


> Hi. I have been wanting to build a train set for quite some time, so I finally went and bought the starter set yesterday. A basic N scale Bachmann NS diesel locomotive with a caboose and coal car and tank car.
> 
> I have a big basement with the possibility for good lighting. Space is not an issue, although I would rather have a really nice train set that was 4X6 than cover a room with an unfinished project.
> 
> ...


Area57; 
Welcome to the forum, and back into the hobby! I will try to answer some of your many questions. I am also recommending an excellent book, which I think you will find very helpful.
The book is "Beginner's guide to N scale Model Railroading" It is available from www.kalmbach.com . It has chapters on Benchwork, that's what we put under the board, as card tables would be too weak and wobbly to support the railroad properly. 
Locomotives, cars , Laying track, wiring, scenery, and finally, step by step instructions on building an N scale model railroad. 
As for table size, I would start with a 4'x8' piece of plywood. Many railroads have been built in this size. Another option would be one, two, or more hollow core doors, laid out in a straight, L shaped, or C shaped, configuration; your choice. You may want to look online or at your local public library for track plans Kalmbach also publishes a book called "101 track plans". A train table should be built to fit the railroad, not the other way around; but that too is your choice. In fact everything in this hobby is a personnel choice. There is no "right", or "wrong way". It's your railroad and you can build it however you want. That includes table height, which varies a lot depending on the individual modeler's height, and weather they want to run it standing up, or while seated in a chair.
I don't know exactly where Norfolk Southern runs. From Southeast to northwest in general; a Google search, or a map, will tell that better than I can.
You mentioned a small town having "someplace to load the coal" The coal industry is Norfolk Southern biggest customer and the railroad has hundreds of hopper cars ("coal cars" to carry it from rural mines, where it is loaded, to power plants or port cities, and yes, an occasional car to small towns. Coal would be unloaded in town, not loaded, unless the town was built next to a coal mine. This did happen, as mining companies built "company(owned) houses for their workers. At one time every small town had a small local coal dealer where a hopper or two, might be pushed up onto a small trestle and dumped into storage bins, or dump trucks which would deliver it to homes and businesses that burned coal for heat. 
Norfolk Southern is a relatively modern railroad born of several mergers of other railroads.
The history of NS, and it's predecessors, should be available online. If you're modeling the 1950S, Norfolk Southern wouldn't exist yet. It would still be the Norfolk and Western, Southern Railway, Etc. 1960s? I'm not sure, again check the history.

Hope that helps you;hwell:

Traction Fan


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## Area57 (Nov 8, 2015)

Great reply.thanks! I checked the Barnes and noble and they didn't have a single book on model trains! I will look at the hobby store for the book. I haven't been in a long time but I think they have it.

Otherwise, no welcome BACK to the hobby, it's my first time ever. I have just always wanted a train set. But thanks for the welcome all the same!

I looked at a track map of NS and they have 22,000 miles over the 22 eastern states. So I can pretty much pick anyone of those. I have narrowed it down thusly. Not to criticize anyone's home state, it's just a quick list for train modeling purposes, not an actual critique of the states.

I'm not interested as much in the south except Florida. 
Delaware seems uninteresting
West Virginia too run down
Maryland in the western part is an option
Virginia is a high option. I really like Virginia.
New England I haven't been to enough to know enough about it.
Upstate New York and Pennsylvania are both about the same and huge options.
Illinois and Indiana I'm open too, but since they are flat and mostly farms probably not.
Michigan, I don't like Detroit so no.
Ohio is at the top. Especially the eastern part like the cuyahoga valley
Florida would be cool, but too flat.

I really appreciate the help on how trains don't load in small towns. I tend to really throw myself into new hobbies and I. Glad you told me that before I went out and bought a bunch of stuff that doesn't fit.

So how about my train just passes through a small town? Did trains sometimes do double duty? Like most of the train is coal but part of it supplies for the town? So it would,make a stop and load or unload a couple cars. Loading if say that town made shoes, so the train put the shoes in a couple cars and took it with the coal to a port to be shipped? Is that how it works? Do they ever mix people cars? I'm not against an all coal train, I just need to design the town right. 

And of course I could have two trains with a two rail "yard" where they switch. Also I could have a passing lane some where so I could run them at the same time and switch them on a straight section of track where two rails run parallel. I forget what that is called.

I'm also now wondering if I shouldn't build this bigger. I found an old table. But heavy and sturdy, like 100 pounds of old solid wood. It's an antique and it splits in the middle to change sizes, a dining room table. So I got a 2'x4' board tonight and I was going to lay it down and go crack tomorrow and get three, but that 6x4 and I guess that doesn't actually give me much room, especially this website calls it extra small http://www.scarm.info/layouts/track_plans.php?ltp=102

I have the room, I just want to make sure I don't get in over my head and get overwhelmed with a project I don't finish, that also why I wanted to do the separate boards. I can go back and add more later if I want too.

Let me know what you think.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The area you are describing was populated with the most well known
US railroads of the 50s and 60s. Norfolk and Western. Chesepeake and
Ohio, New York Central, Pennsylvania, Erie Lackawana. There were
others. There was no Norfolk Southern in those days.

Coal hauling was a major revenue stream for those roads, much of
it going to coastal cities where it was exported. But that area was also
where much of the heavy industry of the country was located. Everything
from steel, cars, radio and TV sets, major and minor appliances
and just about every other kind of product was made there. There was a type
of freight no longer used, Less than carload. LCL. Each railroad had
freight stations in each city where a small shipment is offloaded, then the car sent
on to the next city where shipments to it are take off and so on. So you
have a wide choice in the type of industries you can put on your layout.
You also can use both diesel and steam locos since both were still running
those rails in that period. And, of course, every freight train had a
caboose.

4 X 8 is an ideal size for N Scale. You can have a very nice continuous
running layout while at the same time providing a lot of good
switching operations. Check out the many layouts shown here on
the Forum as well as those you can find on-line. Then adapt what
you like to be more in line with the kind of layout you want.

And, remember, if you get stuck on some aspect of building your
layout, ask the guys here on the forum who have years of
experience to share with you.

Don


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## Florida RR (Oct 8, 2015)

If you want to haul coal, there is an entire web site devoted to modeling coal hauling railroads.

Appalachian Railroad Modeling.

Although I am from Florida, I am a big fan of Appalachia. It sounds like you want to model in and above Appalachia while I am modeling just below Appalachia in the Southeast. Nevertheless, there is some overlap with the railroads involved. I chose a rough target of 1970 since that's when I grew up watching trains. Although you want to model pre-1970, I have a link that may help:

The National Atlas of the United States of America 1970.

For any railroads that had not been merged out of existence by 1970, this atlas could be a very valuable resource for you. It has helped me a lot. South of Appalachia, it shows Seaboard Coast Line (my favorite) which was the primary railroad of Florida, formed from the merger of Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line. Florida also was served by Florida East Coast, which still exists. It also shows The Southern Railroad and Central of Georgia before there was a Norfolk Southern. North of Appalachia it shows Norfolk and Western. It also shows other railroads like Louisville and Nashville, Chesapeake and Ohio, etc. I love these maps. It should give you an idea of what was where in the 1960's leading up to the 1970 map. The track didn't change much even if the names did change through mergers. I am working with Seaboard Coast Line, Southern, and Central of Georgia. Southern and Central of Georgia are both predecessors of Norfolk Southern.

For more historical information, I have found this link useful as well:

American-Rails.com Fallen Flags.

Each fallen flag railroad has a basic map and some historical information that I have found very useful.

I hope these resources help. 

-Florida RR-


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## Florida RR (Oct 8, 2015)

Area57 said:


> I have the room, I just want to make sure I don't get in over my head and get overwhelmed with a project I don't finish, that also why I wanted to do the separate boards. I can go back and add more later if I want too.
> 
> Let me know what you think.


No model railroad is ever finished. There is always "I can add just one more thing" and "I could take this off and put this in its place" and "Given what I have learned I can make this area better" and on and on. 

When I had this dilemma over what size to begin with, and the space that I no longer have, I decided to use a modular approach. I figured that I could start with a 3' x 5' and then connect that to an additional 3' x 5' later on if I wanted. Personally I'm not a fan of 4 x 8' layouts because I find it difficult to reach across them, and I really would rather have length rather than width - say 3' x 6' or even 3' x 8' for nice long runs. Decide what your minimum acceptable radius is, and that sets the minimum width for your layout. The length of the layout has a lot to do with how long your trains can be, although techniques like sending them in and out of view can help make long trains on short layouts look more believable.

I have always thought that an inexpensive hollow core door with foam on top made a simple, convenient, cost effective, and sturdy starting point. There are lots of ideas online for door layouts.

-Florida RR-


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Great idea, but instead of thick foam why don't you consider using Sundeala board or Homosote as you call it in the US, been used for model railroads for more than fifty years. made from recycled paper, gives good soundproofing and accepts track pins easily, unlike foam which you'll need to stick. You'll more than likely make alterations to your track as you go along and pins are easier to remove.

Have fun!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So I've already given you a (perhaps too lengthy) reply on your other thread. I won't repeat myself.

Kalmbach publishing (publisher of Model Railroader, Trains, Classic Toy Trains, and several other hobbiyst magazines) has been a the forefront of our hobby's literature for 75 years. They have several good introductory books -- just keep in mind, like the Pirate Code: they're more guidelines than actual rules.

You also might want to check out Model Railroad Hobbyist, a free on-line model railroading magazine which is loaded with information and ideas. They have back issues available for download right back to their start in 2009. Some of what they publish may be too much information for a beginner, but lots of it will be right up your alley.

You also might want to pick up a copy of the Walthers catalog for N&Z scales. They are the largest distributor of model railroad stuff in North America and will list most of what is available. It's a great way to see the may options available to you. You can also just browse on their website (www.walthers.com), which is very user friendly and has a great search engine.


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## Florida RR (Oct 8, 2015)

Cycleops said:


> Great idea, but instead of thick foam why don't you consider using Sundeala board or Homosote as you call it in the US, been used for model railroads for more than fifty years.


I did use Homasote once. I really didn't like it. It's soft and crumbly. If not treated, it absorbs water. I switched to the sheets of foam from the local home improvement store, and I was so much happier. They are pretty dense and solid. They can be cut easily with a knife. They can be shaped with heat. They are very light. Layers can be stacked to form mountains and hills and tunnels and cuts. On my last layout, I glued cork roadbed directly to the foam using foam-safe construction adhesive. Springy Atlas flex track could then be held in place by spikes. I also ended up gluing the track permanently to the cork roadbed, removing the temporary spikes that were holding it, and then ballasting it. I know a lot of you are *cringing* right now. It worked for me last time, and I think I'm going to do it again. Glued track? Yes, and it worked. I won't use the springy ugly old Atlas flex track this time though. Back then it was all I knew. I bought Micro Engineering flex track this time. 

I suppose all of this is relevant to the current thread. EZ track is a good way to get started, but usually there comes a desire to do things that sectional track can't do. That's when it's time to start looking at a foundation like Homasote or foam on a table or door with separate roadbed and flex track. I wouldn't get too heavily invested in EZ track unless you are sure it will meet your needs long term. For some people, apparently it does, but not for me. I gave up on sectional track after my first layout.

-Florida RR-


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## Area57 (Nov 8, 2015)

Wow amazing advice! I am having some trouble with the darn EZ track. It is har to get the track to connect flat. Is that normal? Cars keep jumping. I am wishing I had just gone with buying separate now. I may take this back. I saw flex track and the more expensive individual cars nd they look loads better. Not that I'm complaining. For pretty cheap I got all the basics. In just not sure it as high quality as I would have liked now having seen the oth stuff. Ow. Flex track. Wow.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Always check the used train gear for values. I don't have a single brand
new car running on my layout and the count is nearing 100. Almost all have
come from estate sales and train shows. I have paid from 2.00 to 10.00
each with the most coming in at 4 and 5.00.

Look for knuckle couplers, possible damage, (usually loss of brake wheel
or corner step brackets) amount of fine details and to a minor degree metal wheels.
Plastic wheels can run good enough but metal wheels are best.
It's easy to replace plastic wheels if deemed needed.

You can also find true value in used flex track and turnouts. 

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Area57 said:


> Wow amazing advice! I am having some trouble with the darn EZ track. It is har to get the track to connect flat. Is that normal? Cars keep jumping. I am wishing I had just gone with buying separate now. I may take this back. I saw flex track and the more expensive individual cars nd they look loads better. Not that I'm complaining. For pretty cheap I got all the basics. In just not sure it as high quality as I would have liked now having seen the oth stuff. Ow. Flex track. Wow.


The EZ Track has a more-or-less standard rail joiner attached to it, one at one end and one at the other. When laying the track, you have to be careful that these line up, and the track slides into them as you join it, or you will get the bumps you describe.

You might as well learn to do it now. You're going to use some rail joiners no matter what type of track you end up using, and that issue is always going to be there. Lesson learned (DON'T forget this): bullet-proof trackwork is the surest way to make sure you spend your time running trains instead of rerailing them or pushing them to get started.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*More Q&A*



Area57 said:


> Great reply.thanks! I checked the Barnes and noble and they didn't have a single book on model trains! I will look at the hobby store for the book. I haven't been in a long time but I think they have it.
> 
> Otherwise, no welcome BACK to the hobby, it's my first time ever. I have just always wanted a train set. But thanks for the welcome all the same!
> 
> ...


Area57;

"Trains doing double duty"? I think you're referring to a mix of different types of freight cars in the same train. If so, the answer is yes. They were called, logically enough, mixed freights.(and a host of other names like locals, and peddlers,Etc.) This was actually the most common form of freight train in the 1950s) Some trains were dedicated to only one kind of freight, this was common with coal trains as they had huge quantities of coal to move from one, or several, mines; to a single destination. Usually this was to a seaport, or an electric power plant. Large industries like those already mentioned, might also be a destination for such a train. Today they are called "unit trains." This does not mean that a
mixed freight never pulled hopper cars, as part of their mix, they did. While a train typically might not load coal in most towns, they certainly did unload it at many towns. Remember those local coal dealers. They would need a hopper now and then.
A "passing lane" on a railroad is called a passing siding. They are used to let a faster train overtake and, yes pass, a slower train; exactly like a passing lane on a road. Sidings are also used to allow trains moving in opposite directions to "meet"(get by each other) without colliding head on.( In railroad worker's gallows humor this was called a "cornfield meet", meaning that the two trains "met", by crashing disastrously, in the middle of nowhere instead safely, at a siding.) Sidings, strictly speaking, have turnouts(rail switches) at both ends. Single turnout versions are called spurs. The terms are mixed freely and it's no big deal which one you use. Both sidings and spurs are used to serve the railroad's many customers. An appropriate type of car would be "spotted"(parked) on that customer's siding as needed. Loaded/unloaded cars, that the customer didn't need anymore, would be picked up; usually by the same train. Rail "yards" are simply a collection of two or more sidings,or spurs, in one location. They are used to store, clean,repair, and importantly sort cars into trains. Using sidings to do all these things is called switching, and is one of the most interesting aspects of the hobby. Try to include some switching in any track plans you draw.
I strongly recommend that you start small and simple. You can add on more later. If you try to do too much ,too soon, you're likely to end up frustrated and unhappy. Also building your railroad in sections, will help in many ways. My own N scale railroad is built in sections 4' long and 16" deep. This saved me from starting over , or quitting altogether, when I acquired some medical problems that make it difficult for me to stand more than 20 Min. or so. Now I can take one section to the workbench and work on it sitting down.
Sections also make you railroad easier to move. Mine has survived a house move, and been adaptable to the new location, because it could fit through doorways easily, and be reconfigured without major destruction of work already done. For this reason, I don't recommend using that 100Lb. dining table as a permanent base for your railroad.
If it's already in your basement, it will do fine as a temporary place to lay out your EZ track sections and try different arrangements. For the long haul though, I would go with hollow doors on sturdy wood legs and diagonal bracing, or purpose-built benchwork.
I would also consider switching from EZ track to sectional track without attached roadbed. Atlas makes a wide variety of curves, straights, turnouts, and crossings in their "code 55" track.(code55 just means the rail is a smaller, and much more realistic, height.) The problem with roadbed track, like EZ track, is that it only comes in very limited shapes. To some extent that's also true of the sectional track I just recommended, but they do have a lot more options than EZ track. You may want to buy some code55 flex track also/ instead. It can be bent to any curve, and is what most of us use, and you will probably end up using. Flex track is a little harder to experiment with than sectional, but by no means impossible. If you want to jump right in, skip directly to the flex track.

Hope that helps you 

Traction Fan

PS. The book I recommended can be bought directly from the publisher at www.kalmbachhobbystore.com or try www.amazon.com they may have a used copy cheaper.


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## Florida RR (Oct 8, 2015)

One word of warning on flex track - you need to solder it together. With that said, once flex track is laid properly and soldered together, it is fantastic. In 36" lengths it eliminates so many joints.

Someone mentioned used rolling stock. In the past 6 weeks I have bought about 30 pieces of rolling stock, almost none of which was new. A visit to FeeBay can turn up many hundreds of pieces of rolling stock from quality brands in used but like new condition. I haven't gotten a bad one yet.

-Florida RR-


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## Florida RR (Oct 8, 2015)

traction fan said:


> Area57;
> 
> "Trains doing double duty"? I think you're referring to a mix of different types of freight cars in the same train. If so, the answer is yes. They were called, logically enough, mixed freights.(and a host of other names like locals, and peddlers,Etc.) This was actually the most common form of freight train in the 1950s)


I have always wondered how to model mixed freight trains. Specifically, what "rules" did the railroads follow when hauling cars owned by another railroad? Most of the cars on a mixed freight would be from railroads in the same geographic region, wouldn't they?

-Florida RR-


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