# Adding a "keep alive"-type capacitor on a wire harness (red-black)



## GrapevineFlyer

Someone told me even if your decoder doesn't support a "keep alive" that you can connect one across the red and black wires (track) on your NMRA wire harness. Is this true? I understand the capacitor needs to be "bi-polar" to handle both polarities. If this is possible, I would like to try it. The current will be in the 16 volt range (DCC) in a loco with a 2 amp stall current. Can someone please give me some guidance (a link) on what to buy and how to integrate it. Thank you.


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## DonR

I use Peco Insulfrog turnourts 
and have 9 DCC locomotives but none of them
have a 'stay alive' capacitor, and none need it.

Have you noticed indications that you need one;
Flickering headlight or stuttering performance.

Usually, regular track and loco wheel cleaning
will make a 'stay alive' unnecessary. 

However, I can see one may be needed if you have a short
4 wheel loco or a loco that doesn't have 8 or 12
wheel power pickup.

Perhaps this link to one of the hobbie's DCC
experts will answer your questions.

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/part-sources/bi-polar-capacitors-sound

Don


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## ED-RRR

*Bipolar and Non-Polar Caps..*



GrapevineFlyer said:


> I understand the capacitor needs to be "bi-polar" to handle both polarities.


Sorry but you are forgetting the most important *"Factor"..*
*[DCC] *track voltage is* AC **(Alternating Current)..*

*"Keep Alive"* and *"Other Manufactures” *convert the *V-AC *track power to *V-DC * using *"Diodes"* to the *"Storage Capacitors"..*
......


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> Sorry but you are forgetting the most important *"Factor"..*
> *[DCC] *track voltage is* AC **(Alternating Current)..*
> 
> *"Keep Alive"* and *"Other Manufactures” *convert the *V-AC *track power to *V-DC * using *"Diodes"* to the *"Storage Capacitors"..*
> ......


*NO "HE" DIDN'T*

ThAt iS wHy "hE" mEnTiOnEd uSiNg a "BiPolAr" cApAcItOr.

*"you" HAVE been "MISSED"*


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, given that DCC is indeed AC, the capacitor won't store any energy, as it will be continually being discharged each cycle.

You need to use a capacitor later in the circuit where you only have DC of one polarity so you can actually store a charge.


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## johnfl68

Everything you wanted to know about the complexities of Keep Alive and decoders:

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility

I am sure someone will dispute, rehash, reformat, mark up in bold and red and blue, and suggest that he invented this as well.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Good one John, that's more information than the law allows.


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## wvgca

gunrunnerjohn is correct, a commercial [or home made] keep alive ties into the decoder after the rectifier diodes on board ... for a decoder than does not factory plug in points for a keep alive, most people use the blue [common positive] , and tie the ground into one of the negative sided of the on board rectifier diodes ..

I have made some 'home made' ones, cost is around three bucks

here is a site with some common decoder examples of where the keep alive will tie in ..
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm 

That site has clear photos, and if your decoder is not listed, you can see what the rectifier diodes look like, just need a multlmeter to determine possible tie in points 

// second time is easier 

edit .. a bipolar cap array across the track power inputs may work, but double the expense, and twice as bulky than 'normal' keep alive install .. in my opinion, it's easier to do it the 'standard' way, and putting caps on the track side _may_ possibly filter out the control signals in the waveform ,not sure, never tried it that way on DCC


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## ED-RRR

*Bipolar and Non-Polar Caps..*



fcwilt said:


> *
> NO "HE" DIDN'T*
> ThAt iS wHy "hE" mEnTiOnEd uSiNg a "BiPolAr" cApAcItOr.
> *"you" HAVE been "MISSED"*


This is a picture of an *AC *voltage capacitor !! 
They are *"Very" *large..









*Question: [fcwilt]*
Where can you purchase a *very *(very) *Small **AC *voltage *"Capacitor" ??*
......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: [fcwilt]*
> Where can you purchase a *very *(very) *Small **AC *voltage *"Capacitor" ??*
> ......


commonly used on many electronic devices, computers, etc ..
however, they are intended as a 'filter', and are not capable, nor intended for, more than minimal power storage ... in any case a bipolar or AC capacitor is generally twice the size of an equivalent DC version, and twice the cost


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## ED-RRR

*Home Made -->Keep Alive..*



wvgca said:


> I have made some '*home made'* ones, cost is around three bucks..


*[wvgca]*
Could you "*Please Prove" *post your *"Actual" *Home Made -->Keep Alive.. *Operating System ??*
......


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## higgsbosonman

When I recapped my oscilloscope, I bought lots of AC capacitors off of www.newark.com They were much smaller than the capacitors they replaced, and the largest AC cap was only around a three quarters of an inch square and a quarter inch deep, and it replaced a cap that was the size of my finger. Other replacements were the size of my fingernail or smaller. They were rated anywhere from 250-1000v, though. High voltage caps are going to be much larger than their low-voltage counterparts, and really any cap rated for 20-50v AC is going to be small, unless it has a huge capacity. The technology has really decreased in size. 

Most model railroaders are not going to need a 2000v microwave oven capacitor, so size is not an impossible hurdle, although it still exists.


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## fcwilt

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, given that DCC is indeed AC, the capacitor won't store any energy, as it will be continually being discharged each cycle.
> 
> You need to use a capacitor later in the circuit where you only have DC of one polarity so you can actually store a charge.


True - I was simply trying to be humorous in my reply to ED-RRR.


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]*
> Could you "*Please Prove" *post your *"Actual" *Home Made -->Keep Alive.. *Operating System ??*
> ......


uh.. it's not an operating system ..
just a simple cap array ..
three 5.5v double stack super caps in series ...
I use a 200 ohm current limiting charge resistor as my dcc system isn't a real high power one 
and a schottky 1A diode to feed back to the blue..
caps were from ebay, buck apiece [canadian even] including shipping ...


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## ED-RRR

*AC Capacitors..*



higgsbosonman said:


> .... AC cap was only around a three quarters of an inch square and a quarter inch deep, .


Thank You for your *"Update"..*
*- BUT-*
Isn't "Only" (x1) Capacitor a three quarters of an inch (3/4") square and a quarter inch (1/4") thick,
quite "Large" to install into a [N] scale -OR- [HO] scale locomotive ??








......


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> This is a picture of an *AC *voltage capacitor !!
> They are *"Very" *large..
> 
> View attachment 187362
> 
> 
> *Question: [fcwilt]*
> Where can you purchase a *very *(very) *Small **AC *voltage *"Capacitor" ??*
> ......


For your continued edification, an "A/C" capacitor is simply a non-polarized cap, nothing especially fancy about it. It's all about the ratings. There are many other factors that go into the size and usage of a bi-polar or non-polarized capacitor, depending on the intended usage. The motor start capacitor you posted is designed to have a low ESR and a longer life than typical capacitors. Many aluminum capacitors may have a lifetime as low as 1000 operating hours, that wouldn't do for a high reliability application.

This is also an "A/C" capacitor, it's very small. 










A suggestion. _Stop trying to prove you're smarter than everyone here, because you're not! Instead of the confrontational style you seem to enjoy so much, just stick to the facts. All of use have something to contribute, and you'll be shocked to know there are lots of really bright people here._


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## ED-RRR

*Humorous*



fcwilt said:


> .. I was simply trying to be *humorous* in my reply to ED-RRR.


*Question: [fcwilt] (#1)*
Why are you wasting time and space in this "Thread" ??
You have "No" actual "Technical Replies"..

*Question: [fcwilt] (#2)*
Why are you wasting time and space in this "Thread" ??
with useless information ??
......


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: [fcwilt] (#1)*
> Why are you wasting time and space in this "Thread" ??
> You have "No" actual "Technical Replies"..
> 
> *Question: [fcwilt] (#2)*
> Why are you wasting time and space in this "Thread" ??
> with useless information ??
> ......


Probably for the same reason you wasted time and space for this reply.


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## higgsbosonman

Yeah, I wasn't saying that the cap would go in an HO locomotive. You don't need a 1000v mylar cap in a model train (unless you do, in which case what are you doing to that poor train?). I was just saying that they get smaller, especially as we get newer technology. Others were much smaller and would be very easy to wedge inside an HO or even N scale engine. That is why I said "others were the size of my fingernail or smaller".


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## gunrunnerjohn

You can get pretty small supercaps nowadays, probably even small enough for N-scale.


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## ED-RRR

*"A/C" Capacitor..*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> For your continued edification, an "A/C" capacitor is simply a non-polarized cap, nothing especially fancy about it. It's all about the ratings. There are many other factors that go into the size and usage of a bi-polar or non-polarized capacitor, depending on the intended usage. The motor start capacitor you posted is designed to have a low ESR and a longer life than typical capacitors. Many aluminum capacitors may have a lifetime as low as 1000 operating hours, that wouldn't do for a high reliability application.
> 
> This is also an "A/C" capacitor, it's very small.


*Question: (#1) [gunrunnerjohn]*
The picture you are 'Posting" has a capacitor with (x2) different "Length" wire connections .. *(Direct Current)..*

*Question: (#2) [gunrunnerjohn]*
Where can an* "Anyone"* purchase a "Small" *AC-V *Capacitor ??
......


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## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#2) [gunrunnerjohn]*
> Where can an* "Anyone"* purchase a "Small" *AC-V *Capacitor ??
> ......



Newark element14
Allied Electronics
Digi-Key
Mouser Electronics

And so many more. Depends on what *exactly* you want, and who has it for the best price.

I often use Octopart to see who has the best prices when filling my BOM's.


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: [fcwilt] (#1)*
> Why are you wasting time and space in this "Thread" ??
> You have "No" actual "Technical Replies"..
> 
> *Question: [fcwilt] (#2)*
> Why are you wasting time and space in this "Thread" ??
> with useless information ??
> ......


You replied to him "Sorry but you are forgetting the most important "Factor"[DCC] track voltage is AC (Alternating Current).."

His mention of the need for a bi-polar capacitor because of the polarity issue shows he was aware of it.

You were wrong.


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#1) [gunrunnerjohn]*
> The picture you are 'Posting" has a capacitor with (x2) different "Length" wire connections .. *(Direct Current)..*.


*BUZZ, WRONG!* Thanks for playing. Do you want to compete in the bonus rounds where the prizes really add up? Capacitors are manufactured using the same lead frame, and bi-polar capacitors usually have the different length leads. Doesn't it get tiring to make these statements of "*F*a*C*t" and be constantly proven wrong?

UVP1V220MED









I'll save you some time and link the datasheet as you clearly don't understand the topic all that well.

*Standard bi-polarized series for entertainment electronics.PDF*



> *Question: (#2) [gunrunnerjohn]*
> Where can an* "Anyone"* purchase a "Small" *AC-V *Capacitor ??
> .....


Try Digikey or Mouser to start, it's where I get most of my common electronic parts.

Please, if you're going to contradict someone, try to put a little effort into the research, you're coming across pretty lame!

Like I suggested before, stop trying so hard to be a *know-it-all*, it's not working!


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## ED-RRR

*Bi-Polar Capacitors..*

*(#1)*
Yes, I stand *“Corrected”*, because I have never seen very small Bi-Polar (AC) *"Capacitors"..*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> bi-polar capacitors usually have the different length leads..


*(#2)*
Mark Gurries: (Electrical Engineer) and (NMRA DCC Clinic)..
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/part-sources/bi-polar-capacitors-sound

The following list of capacitors that are used by sound decoders where a Bi-Polar (Non polar) capacitor is wired in series with the speaker..
The terms *"Bi-Polar"* and *"Non Polar" *refer to the fact the capacitor has no DC polarity..
There is no "+" or "-" terminals or markings as such on the capacitor..
*You cannot hook it up backwards !!* *<-- Look..* <-- Look..
*You cannot hook it up backwards !!* *<-- Look..* <-- Look..
If you look at the picture on the left, the top one is marked *"N P"* for Non Polarized..

*Question: (#1)*
Why is ??
- "TCS" Keep Alive
- "NCE" Small No Halt
- "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper
Using *"Diodes"* to transfer from V-AC "Track Voltage" --> To V-DC for the [DCC] decoder ??

*Question: (#2)*
Why has no one showed how to "Connect" Bi-Polar (AC) "Capacitors" to a [DCC] system ??



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Doesn't it get tiring to make these statements of "FaCt" and be constantly proven wrong?


*Question: (#3)*
Where did I go "Wrong" *[gunrunnerjohn]* when it comes to [DCC] V-AC operations using ?? ..*"Capacitors"..*

*Question: (#4)*
Do you *[gunrunnerjohn]* have any *"Knowledge" * how *[DCC] * really functions/works ??
......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *(#1)*
> *Question: (#1)*
> Why is ??
> - "TCS" Keep Alive
> - "NCE" Small No Halt
> - "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper
> Using *"Diodes"* to transfer from V-AC "Track Voltage" --> To V-DC for the [DCC] decoder ??


Quite simply .. they don't ...
You seem to have how a decoder works, and a keep alive works .. confused..
There are diodes [either seperate or in a bridge package] on the decoder itself, to convert the square DCC waveform to a useable DC voltage ... 
In most keep alive circuits, there is ONE diode that is used to allow full current flow from the keep alive capacitors to the decoder when track power is interrupted, and a current limiting resistor to charge the keep alive when track power is in a normal state ..
No keep alive circuit designed to be added to a DCC decoder directly converts DCC track power ..
If in doubt of my opinion, feel free to purchase any of the above mentioned keep alive modules, take it apart, and see how they are assembled / designed ..


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *(#1)*
> Yes, I stand *“Corrected”*, because I have never seen very small Bi-Polar (AC) *"Capacitors"..*


Yet you keep advocating on using them in HO DCC applications, do you intend to have a large flatcar to haul your big capacitor? 



> *(#2)*
> Mark Gurries: (Electrical Engineer) and (NMRA DCC Clinic)..
> https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/part-sources/bi-polar-capacitors-sound
> 
> The following list of capacitors that are used by sound decoders where a Bi-Polar (Non polar) capacitor is wired in series with the speaker..
> The terms *"Bi-Polar"* and *"Non Polar" *refer to the fact the capacitor has no DC polarity..
> There is no "+" or "-" terminals or markings as such on the capacitor..
> *You cannot hook it up backwards !!* *<-- Look..* <-- Look..
> *You cannot hook it up backwards !!* *<-- Look..* <-- Look..
> If you look at the picture on the left, the top one is marked *"N P"* for Non Polarized..


If you actually read and comprehended what he was writing about, he was using them in a specific application, DC blocking for audio outputs. This has nothing to do with any keep-alive circuit.



> *Question: (#1)*
> Why is ??
> - "TCS" Keep Alive
> - "NCE" Small No Halt
> - "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper
> Using *"Diodes"* to transfer from V-AC "Track Voltage" --> To V-DC for the [DCC] decoder ??


Beats me, never looked at it. I'm am sure there are any number of different methods of implementing a keep-alive, it's simply a energy storage method to keep you running momentarly.



> *Question: (#2)*
> Why has no one showed how to "Connect" Bi-Polar (AC) "Capacitors" to a [DCC] system ??


I see someone beat me to this, quite simply, it's not an application for a bi-polar capacitor.



> *Question: (#3)*
> Where did I go "Wrong" *[gunrunnerjohn]* when it comes to [DCC] V-AC operations using ?? ..*"Capacitors"..*


You don't use bi-polar capacitors in the keep-alive circuit, that would be one place.



> *Question: (#4)*
> Do you *[gunrunnerjohn]* have any *"Knowledge" * how *[DCC] * really functions/works ??
> ......


No, I just post here to annoy you.


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## johnfl68

It's sad. I posted a link to tons of information on the subject of "keep alive" from Mark Gurries, the 6th post to this thread. But I am sure ED-RRR has me on ignore so he hasn't seen it.

If he would just actually read peoples replies, instead of trying to be a know-it-all all the time trying to prove everyone else is wrong, he might actually learn something.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yes John, you actually posted useful information. :thumbsup:


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## ED-RRR

*Bi-Polar Capacitors..*

*This is in the DCC Forum (Digital Command Control) section..*



GrapevineFlyer said:


> Someone told me even if your decoder doesn't support a "keep alive" that you can connect one across the red and black wires (track) on your NMRA wire harness.
> Is this true?
> I understand the capacitor needs to be "bi-polar" to handle both polarities.


Looking at using *"Bi-Polar Capacitors"* for a *[DCC] *operation....



johnfl68 said:


> It's sad. I posted a link to tons of information on the subject of "keep alive" from Mark Gurries,


*[johnfl68]:*
Your talking about "keep alive" from Mark Gurries..
Posted: 05-30-2016 *(May 30 / 2016)..*

This thread is about "Bi-Polar Capacitors"..



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yes John, you actually posted useful information.


*[gunrunnerjohn]..*
It is quite obvious that you forgot this *"Thread"* with all the required and included *"Instructions"..*
Prevent "All" [DCC] Track Shortages..(Add A Backup Power Supply = Internal Capacitor)
Posted: 01-31-2016 *(Jan. 31 / 2016)..*
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=68562



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yet you keep advocating on using them in HO DCC applications,


Is this not the DCC Forum (Digital Command Control) section ??



gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you actually read and comprehended what he was writing about, he was using them in a specific application, DC blocking for audio outputs.
> This has nothing to do with any keep-alive circuit.


This was to show that "Bi-Polar Capacitors" require special wire connections when using *V-DC..*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> I see someone beat me to this, quite simply, it's not an application for a bi-polar capacitor.


RE: Bi-Polar Capacitors.. [DCC]..



gunrunnerjohn said:


> You don't use bi-polar capacitors in the keep-alive circuit, that would be one place.


RE: Bi-Polar Capacitors.. [DCC]..

*=================*

Sorry, but here I go again..
Maybe learn something about bi-polar capacitors..

*Mark Gurries:*
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/part-sources/bi-polar-capacitors-sound

*Why a Bi-polar or Non Polarized capacitor?*
Normally capacitors do NOT have any polarization of any kind..
However, the common Aluminum Electrolytic (AL) type offers a lot more capacitance per volume at the lowest price than any other capacitor technology.
The consequence of AL capacitor is that it is polarized capacitor due to the physics/chemical properties involved inside the capacitor.
Fortunately most electrical circuit designs use DC power, in which case the polarized nature of a AL capacitor is NOT a disadvantage. 
So what happens if the circuit involves AC power such as found in Audio Circuits.
More specifically when working with speakers? 
It turns out that using those other types of capacitors, (Not AL), will result in a physically large and expensive capacitor. 
Enter the Bi-Polar AL capacitor.
This can be done with the use of a "circuit trick" of placing two polarized AL capacitors in a "BACK to BACK" series configuration.
The negative terminals of both capacitors are tied to each other and insulated leaving only the two positive terminals free for circuit connection.
Both capacitors must be EXACTLY the same make and model capacitor.
This is how these Bi-polar AL capacitors are built.
The manufacture simply puts these two capacitors inside one package giving it the appearance of a single capacitor.
......


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> This thread is about "Bi-Polar Capacitors"..


If you mean this thread that I am posting in right now it started with a question about the possibility of using a NP/BP capacitor on the DCC power input leads of a decoder to achieve "keep alive" behavior.

It has degenerated a bit.



ED-RRR said:


> This was to show that "Bi-Polar Capacitors" require special wire connections when using *V-DC..*


And how did you come to that conclusion?


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## wvgca

Just out of curiosity, has any body actually tried adding a bipolar cap to the input motor leads of a DCC decoder as the origional poster had asked?? 
I haven't, but in my opinion [for what it's worth], that configuration would not function as a type of 'stay alive' , but just act more as a filter , 
very similar to using a standard non polarized capacitor / resistor combination on the ends of long bus lines to reduce 'ringing' and DCC waveform / signal degredation, just being placed on the loco rather than on the ends of the bus lines ..


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## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> Just out of curiosity, has any body actually tried adding a bipolar cap to the input motor leads of a DCC decoder as the origional poster had asked??


You are correct - it would not work.


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## ED-RRR

*Bi-Polar Capacitors..*



fcwilt said:


> If you mean this thread that I am posting in right now it started with a question about the possibility of using a NP/BP capacitor
> on the DCC power input leads of a decoder to achieve "keep alive" behavior.


Sorry, but you are "Only" posting an unproven "Theory".. (Your Possibility) !!

*[ED-RRR] Quote:
Originally Posted by ED-RRR.. 
This was to show that "Bi-Polar Capacitors" require special wire connections when using V-DC..*



fcwilt said:


> And how did you come to that conclusion?


*Mark Gurries:*
https://sites.google.com/site/markgu...pacitors-sound
*"Bi-Polar Capacitors" *require special *(+)* and *(-)* wire connections when using *V-DC..*
......


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> Sorry, but you are "Only" posting an unproven "Theory".. (Your Possibility) !!


What are you talking about?

Here is the original post:

"Someone told me even if your decoder doesn't support a "keep alive" that you can connect one across the red and black wires (track) on your NMRA wire harness. Is this true? I understand the capacitor needs to be "bi-polar" to handle both polarities. If this is possible, I would like to try it. The current will be in the 16 volt range (DCC) in a loco with a 2 amp stall current. Can someone please give me some guidance (a link) on what to buy and how to integrate it. Thank you."

This is clearly a question about something he was told about implementing keep-alive functionality.

My first posts did not address the feasibility of this approach at all. Later in response to another poster's question I remarked that this approach will not work.



ED-RRR said:


> *Mark Gurries:*
> https://sites.google.com/site/markgu...pacitors-sound
> *"Bi-Polar Capacitors" *require special *(+)* and *(-)* wire connections when using *V-DC.. *


The link does not work so I cannot comment as to the specific issues mentioned.

However, in general, NP/BP capacitors do not require any "special connections" to work with DC.


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## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> This thread is about "Bi-Polar Capacitors"..


*WRONG!*

Title of Thread:
*Adding a "keep alive"-type capacitor on a wire harness (red-black)*

First sentence of thread:


> Someone told me even if your decoder doesn't support a "keep alive" that you can connect one across the red and black wires (track) on your NMRA wire harness. Is this true?


Both the OP and YOU are trying to understand more about "Keep-Alive" and what types of capacitors and circuits will work with DCC. There is plenty of information in regards to this in the article that I posted. Did you even bother reading it from beginning to end? I am guessing no.

Again, you can't bother taking the time to read and understand information that is easily obtained, and think you are the only one who knows anything about everything.


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## wvgca

ED-RRR , not sure how much spare time you have at present, I'm busy putting a crop in right now ...
but anyways, would you be willing to try the bi-polar capacitor on the track input leads on the decoder, as the origional poster had inquired about, and report your findings to the origional poster, and the forum in general ...
as far as I'm led to believe, you have a running DCC system that you can implement this on, and background to report the testing procedure and end conclusions??
If you are not willing to do this, or unable to install the capacitors, I can try this later on, but life / work / seeding is currently the priority for me right now ..


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## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> ED-RRR , not sure how much spare time you have at present, I'm busy putting a crop in right now ...
> but anyways, would you be willing to try the bi-polar capacitor on the track input leads on the decoder, as the origional poster had inquired about, and report your findings to the origional poster, and the forum in general ...
> as far as I'm led to believe, you have a running DCC system that you can implement this on, and background to report the testing procedure and end conclusions??
> If you are not willing to do this, or unable to install the capacitors, I can try this later on, but life / work / seeding is currently the priority for me right now ..


That should be interesting - looking forward to the results.


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## redman88

I have asked ERR to test things and he refuses.


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## fcwilt

redman88 said:


> I have asked ERR to test things and he refuses.


Hmm...

Perhaps he lacks the resources and/or ability.


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## gunrunnerjohn

fcwilt said:


> That should be interesting - looking forward to the results.


There will be no useful results in connecting a bi-polar cap across the track feed.


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## fcwilt

gunrunnerjohn said:


> There will be no useful results in connecting a bi-polar cap across the track feed.


Shh... I know but I got a private message... so I'm playing along... 

Don't tell you know who.

:sly:


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## DonR

just out of curiosity, I'm bringing up again the
question of why a Keep Alive is needed on an HO DCC
loco. I repeat that I have 9 that run through more
than 20 Peco Insulfrog turnouts. I never see even
a tiny flicker on the loco headlights and certainly
no pauses or stops. I run my track cleaning car maybe
once a month. I do have a climate controlled layout 
room.

What experiences are you guys having that causes
you to think a Keep Alive is needed?

Don


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## fcwilt

DonR said:


> What experiences are you guys having that causes
> you to think a Keep Alive is needed?
> Don


I use Peco ElectroFrog and have NO issues except with certain very short wheel base locos with flanges that are too large for code 83.


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## Lemonhawk

On sound decoders, a little spot of dirt on the track can cause the sound to restart, The keep alive prevents those slight glitches from affecting the sound. Sometimes a Keep -Alive can be annoying as the loco makes sounds for some time after the track power is off. I have a mix of ones with keepalive and ones without and I see/hear no difference other than when the layout powers down, but then all my frogs are powered.


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## wvgca

DonR said:


> just out of curiosity, I'm bringing up again the question of why a Keep Alive is needed on an HO DCC
> loco.
> 
> Don


I made a couple, just out of curiosity ...
and they wound up in a friends loco's ... he has minor issues with his track, the loco's didn't actually stop, but occasionally the lights would flicker, and he found that the one loco he has with sound would reset the sound sequence sometimes when the track power was momentarily interrupted ... and he found that quite annoying ..
he cleans his track quite often, but is also doing ballast and scenery now ..
he is happy now with sound staying 'normal' and says it runs better at low speed now, but I think he is imagining that part 
I don't have any installed on my loco's at present,


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## ED-RRR

*Back Up Power Supply (Capacitors).. (#1)..*



Lemonhawk said:


> On sound decoders, a little spot of dirt on the track can cause the sound to restart, The keep alive prevents those slight glitches from affecting the sound.
> 
> Sometimes a Keep -Alive can be annoying as the loco makes sounds for some time after the track power is off.
> I have a mix of ones with keepalive and ones without and I see/hear no difference other than when the layout powers down, but then all my frogs are powered.



*Many "Sound Decoders" use a "Capacitor" connected in series to prevent any "Sound Gaps"..*









*Here are pictures adding a "Capacitor" (Optional) in series to prevent any "Flickering Lights"..*










......


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## ED-RRR

*Back Up Power Supply (Capacitors) -->(Reply)..*



wvgca said:


> I made a couple, just out of curiosity and they wound up in a friends loco's ..
> He is happy now with sound staying 'normal' and says it runs better at low speed now, but I think he is *imagining* that part





wvgca said:


> I don't have any *installed* on my loco's at present,


*Holy Crap:*
Here is an individual *[wvgca] **"Posting" *and *"Building" * back Up power supply using *"Capacitors"..*

*Question to [wvgca]..*
How do you know the final *"Result" *of your designed *"Product",*
when *"Never"* use it ??
......


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *Many "Sound Decoders" use a "Capacitor" connected in series to prevent any "Sound Gaps"..*
> ......


"In series" - meaning what? 

What do you believe the capacitor is in series with?

And PLEASE enough with the quotes and the bolding and the colors - just plain old posts are all we want to see - and are SO much easier to read.


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## ED-RRR

*Back Up Power Supply (Capacitors).. (#2)..*

- "TCS" Keep Alive
- "NCE" Small No Halt
- "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper
Using a *"Commercial"* back up power supply *(Capacitors)* is not cheap ($'s)..
- "TCS" Keep Alive (KA1 US $$27.95)..
- "NCE" Small No Halt ($27.95)..
- "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper ($26.95)..

*BUT:*
These "*Commercial"* back up power supply *(Capacitors) *have added the required *(IC's)* to also function correctly..

I have a previous *"Thread"* where I went into great detail about *"Back Up Power Supply"* using capacitors..
Like usual, I was attacked on how I posted my *"Technical Information"..*

The *"Commercial"* back up power supply using *"Capacitors" *have this completely covered..
I will *"Not"* get into the proven electronic facts when using a *"Back Up Power Supply"* using capacitors..
You will "*Not"* believe me..

Do your own home work how (V-DC) back up power supply using *"Capacitors" *actually function.. 
When making your own back up power supply using *"Capacitors"* certain *"Procedures"* should be observed..
- Capacitor up loading charging.. 
- Capacitor down loading to decoder.. 

*Require:*
- (x1) Resistor..
- (x1) Diode..








......


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## gunrunnerjohn

Perhaps if you presented some of your own work that you have actually tested instead of cutting and pasting from the Internet, we'd be more impressed. Listing commercial product names and cutting-n-pasting from the Internet is not nearly as impressive.


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Question to [wvgca]..*
> How do you know the final *"Result" *of your designed *"Product",*
> when *"Never"* use it ??
> ......


I guess it wasn't specifically stated, but I installed them on friends loco's and tested them. he also confirmed his happiness with them ..

deleted: not relevant

edit: I guess you didn't read or understand the part where I said
"I don't have any installed on my loco's *at present*,"


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> - "TCS" Keep Alive
> - "NCE" Small No Halt
> - "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper
> Using a *"Commercial"* back up power supply *(Capacitors)* is not cheap ($'s)..
> - "TCS" Keep Alive (KA1 US $$27.95)..
> - "NCE" Small No Halt ($27.95)..
> - "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper ($26.95)..
> 
> *BUT:*
> These "*Commercial"* back up power supply *(Capacitors) *have added the required *(IC's)* to also function correctly..
> ......


the nce small no halt has no ic's on board ..
I even can attach a 'cut'n'paste' ..
The other two you mention come shrink wrapped, but no discernable outline of an IC


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## Mark R.

Ed - you ramble on about all this knowledge you seem to think you have .... yet, I have NEVER seen anything posted by you that is your actual work / design. You seem to live by the adage "if it's on the internet, it must be true".

Apparently you been challenged a few times to actually try something and report back your finding, but you continually refuse to do so. Rather you continue to copy and paste everything you find on the internet (which most of us have already seen).

Forums are about sharing information based on our own experiences. If you haven't personally experienced these topics, then you really don't have much to contribute.

Mark.


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## fcwilt

I think it is fairly safe to say Ed is a person with a smidgen of knowledge who truly believes he understands this stuff.

Many of his incorrect/confusing statements support this supposition.

Perhaps he means well but it's hard to say for sure.


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## gunrunnerjohn

One thing that does seem to come through with his postings...


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## Lemonhawk

Found that on the internet John?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Of course, isn't everything of value somewhere on the Internet?


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## ED-RRR

*Cutting and Pasting..*

*Question: (#1)*
Without actually cutting and pasting from the *"Internet"* (Proven Data),
*"How"* are the *"Beginners"* in *[DCC]* going to *"Learn" ??*

*Question: (#2)*
Do you have a better procedure without using *"Detailed Instructions" ??

*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> Perhaps if you presented some of your own work that you have actually tested instead of cutting and pasting from the Internet, we'd be more impressed.
> Listing commercial product names and cutting-n-pasting from the Internet is not nearly as impressive.


I do *"Not"* pretend to be an "*Electrical Engineer" *like some other *"Individuals" *do in this forum..
Why re-invent the wheel (DCC Project) when it is already *"Proven"* and *"Tested"..*
Even with *"Actual Proven"* data of an item posted, some *"Individuals" *still do *"Not"* beleive it.. 
That is why I have to use *"Actual" *data and pictures, being backed up by *"Professional*" electrical engineers.. 

Here are some *"Prime" *examples of "*False"* information posted..



fcwilt said:


> I think it is fairly safe to say Ed is a person with a smidgen of knowledge who truly believes he understands this stuff.
> *Many of his incorrect/confusing statements support this supposition.*
> Perhaps he means well but it's hard to say for sure.





wvgca said:


> the nce small no halt has no ic's on board ..
> The other two you mention come shrink wrapped, *but no discernable outline of an IC*


The *"SoundTraxx Current Keeper"* has an on-board *"Voltage Regulation" *and in-rush *"Current Protection" *circuitry.. 









Here are some more "*Examples"* of using a backup power supply (Capacitors)..
You will also note the extra required *"Electronic Components"..*









Home made back up power supply using a capacitor..
Uploading and downloading this V-DC power *"Storage Cell" *requires special wiring to insure *"Correct" *function..
Sorry but I am not an *"Electrical Engineer"..*
Sorry but I had to cut and paste the required *"Information"..*
How each *"Individual Capacitor"* is connected..









*Question: (#3)*
Why is *[gunrunnerjohn]* *"Attacking"* me ??
He has *"Absolutely"* no *"Knowledge"* when it comes to *[DCC].. *

*Question: (#4)*
Why is *[gunrunnerjohn] *even involved with this *[DCC] **“Thread” ??*
……


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## ED-RRR

*Back Up Power Supply (Capacitors).. (#2)..*

*[gunrunnerjohn]*
Has an old posting in this *"Forum".. *(http://www.modeltrainforum.com)..
-And-
Has a newer posting in *"Another Forum".. *(http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/)..

*[wvgca]*
You claim to have built and installed back up power supply *(Capacitors)* into a friends loco's and tested them..

==============

*Question: (#1)*
Does *[gunrunnerjohn]* have any actual *"Testing"* results when using *[O] gauge ??*

*Question: (#2)*
Does *[wvgca*] have any actual *"Testing"* results when using *[HO] gauge ??*

=============================

*[gunrunnerjohn]* and *[wvgca]..*
Go To "You Tube:
*SoundTraxx CurrentKeeper..*






Apply thin masking tape to both [DCC] track rails, a section 12" (x12) inches long..

*Question: (#3)*
The first (x1") inch travel = *"Inertia"..*
How *“Far”* did your *"Locomotive Travel"* --> *[gunrunnerjohn] *and* [wvgca] ??*
......


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## CTValleyRR

ED, I can't believe you still haven't learned your lesson.

Seeing as how you're on my "Ignore" list, I haven't actually read your posts (not that I can without considerable mental gymnastics) but it's obvious from other's responses that you're up to your old tricks.

Please take my advice and see a medical professional about your condition.

And for everyone else, since this isn't the only place ED is posting, perhaps we should make a concerted effort to review his other posts and make sure he's actually providing good information.


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR

1. As to "incorrect/confusing" information

You made a post referring to a capacitor being "in series". 

You were asked to explain what you meant - you have not. 

Perhaps it makes sense but without more information it is hard to tell. 

For any sort of device that is going to provide "backup" power that device is going to have to be in parallel with the load. 

Thus the "in series" remark is potentially incorrect and is clearly confusing.


2. "I am not an electrical engineer"

If you do not have reasonably extensive knowledge/education in these fields how do you know that what you are cutting and pasting is correct?

I was educated in digital circuit design and did much of that type of work for 22+ years.

I also was educated in computer programming and did even more of that type of work for 35+ years.

So my remarks about you and questions to you are not made out of ignorance.


Your approach to this forum is simply baffling. 

You make harsh accusations about other members and their intent/knowledge and then wonder why you are not well liked. 

You insist on formatting your posts in a style that makes them hard to read and yet you ignore/attack others who suggest you change your style.

I would be enjoy sharing with you my knowledge of the various things that are discussed here on this forum but you make that very hard.

As I said you may mean well but it is hard to be sure.


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]*
> You claim to have built and installed back up power supply *(Capacitors)* into a friends loco's and tested them..
> 
> *Question: (#2)*
> Does *[wvgca*] have any actual *"Testing"* results when using *[HO] gauge ??*
> ......


sure, rudimentary testing only ... lights didn't flicker, kept moving for a couple of inches extra [ over run length just on momentum / flywheels] after DCC track supply disconnected ... 
good enough, friend was happy .. 

As far as a youtube video, no interest in replicating some one else's results today .. it's raining, and I've got a non functional GPS autosteer to straighten out ..

oh, thanks for the image of the soundtraxx keep alive, I didn't have one to peel the shrink wrap off to see if there was more hidden under neath


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> I do *"Not"* pretend to be an "*Electrical Engineer" *like some other *"Individuals" *do in this forum.


I don't have to pretend. 



ED-RRR said:


> Here are some more "*Examples"* of using a backup power supply (Capacitors)..
> You will also note the extra required *"Electronic Components"..*


Do you have a clue as to what any of those "extra" components do? 



ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#1)*
> Does *[gunrunnerjohn]* have any actual *"Testing"* results when using *[O] gauge ??*


You're joking, right? I have products for O-gauge that I've designed and have sold hundreds of pieces, so clearly they've been pretty well tested. They've been mentioned here a number of times. Perhaps you didn't see any mention of this creation of mine, Super-Chuffer. And, or course, there's the Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit that's also been very popular.

I've posted countless diagrams of various upgrades and actual pictures of the locomotives that received the upgrades, but I suspect you didn't look that hard. You can check my videos on YouTube for some of the upgrades.

Have you ever posted any of your actual work?

I've also been involved in beta testing ERR products before they went to market to provide feedback for product improvements.

So far, all I've seen from you is Internet cut-n-paste.

If I were really attacking you, I can assure you that you'd know it.


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## fcwilt

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've also been involved in beta testing ERR products


Is that this company:

http://www.electricrr.com/

Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Correct, I did a beta test on the Cruise Commander Lite, my results were posted here in the forum. I managed to burn one up in the process because of a motor stall on a switch, that suggested to me the need for some motor stall protection. I haven't lost any more of them. 

I also had the Sound Converter for testing several years before it showed up on their site. There was a group of us that were collaborating with Jon Z. at Lionel on the idea. Once we settled on the capabilities, he had it out in a couple of weeks, he's an amazing guy! 

I've used the Sound Converter board for a couple of other projects as ERR released the source code under the GPL license for personal use.


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## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#1)*
> Without actually cutting and pasting from the *"Internet"* (Proven Data),
> *"How"* are the *"Beginners"* in *[DCC]* going to *"Learn" ??*


Any of the following:

searching Google and Bing
talking to local hobby shops and local clubs
going to local meets
reading Model Railroad Hobbyist and Model Railroader magazines
various forums
DCC Wiki and Wiring for DCC websites
talking to well known model railroad hobbyists that actually know what they are doing and are well respected
Just like they have been for years.

They are not going to learn much by reading your posts especially after they figure out how argumentative you get with anyone who suggests you posted incorrect information, or suggested a different or better way to do something, in which you seem to think you are the utmost expert of.


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## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#1)*
> Without actually cutting and pasting from the *"Internet"* (Proven Data),
> *"How"* are the *"Beginners"* in *[DCC]* going to *"Learn" ?…*


*

This statement just shows the extent of your ignorance. Have you ever heard the expression: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt." 

It's very easy to find things on the internet. What isn't so easy is separating out the GOOD data from the garbage posted by people who claim to be experts but have no idea what they're talking about. Or worse, misleading information posted by people trying to sell something.

Instead of contributing to the garbage, try helping to get rid of it. All you're achieving by posting this crap is to further undermine your credibility. If you want to get it back, quit trying so hard to prove yourself right when you aren't.*


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## ED-RRR

*LooK --> Adding a "Keep Alive" - Using Capacitors..*

There are presently 1,210 *"Different" *viewers in this *"Thread"..*
Only the *"Same"* few *"Individuals" *like to prove me *"Wrong"..*

I have *"Not"* read any previous *"Postings"..*
I will not *"Waste" *my time or space replying to *"Useless Quotes"..*

*Fact: (#1)*
I was the very *"First Individual"* that *"Proved" *that *"Bi-Polar" *capacitors could *"Not"* be used with *[DCC]* V-AC operations
--> In This *"Thread"..*
Other *"Individuals"* started to post that *"Bi-Polar" *capacitors can "*Not"* be used with *[DCC}.. **(Information Theft - No Credit To Me)..*

*Fact: (#2)*
- "TCS" Keep Alive
- "NCE" Small No Halt
- "SoundTraxx" Current Keeper
These *"Commercial"* backup power supply (Capacitors) that are *"Custom"* made for *[DCC]* *"Decoders"..*

*Fact: (#3)*
These *"Commercial"* backup power supply (Capacitors) are for *[DCC]* *"Operations"..*
They come with on-board *"Voltage Regulation" *and in-rush *"Current Protection" *circuitry.. 

*Question: (#1)*
Are you willing to add your *"Own" *(Home Made) back up power supply using (Capacitors)
that could/will *"Destroy" *your very costly ($,s) *[DCC]* decoder / decoders ??

*Question: (#2)*
*[fcwilt] *claims to be an *"Electrical Engineer"..*
Does he have any *"Knowledge"* when it comes to *[DCC] *operations ??
Is he a *"Registered Advisor"* for (N.M.R.A.) when it comes to *[DCC]* operations ??

*Question: (#3)*
Is there any *"Electrical Engineer"* member in this *"Forum",*
that is a *"Registered Adviser"* for (N.M.R.A.) when it comes to *[DCC]* operations ??
.....


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## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> There are presently 1,210 *"Different" *viewers in this *"Thread"..*


That is "views" not "viewers" - wrong again, but you have already proved that you can not read.

At 1210 views and 68 replies in the thread prior to your post, simple math makes approximately 18 viewers. 

It's a little more complicated than that, but having been administrator for several other forums for many years, experience tells me that taking into account repeat viewers, this is more likely to be around 10-12 actual people viewing this thread if that.

There are only about 200-300 active members a day, you really thing over 1000 people are viewing your threads??? :laugh:


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> I was the very *"First Individual"* that *"Proved" *that *"Bi-Polar" *capacitors could *"Not"* be used with *[DCC]* V-AC operations


Proved? How do you figure that?



ED-RRR said:


> *[fcwilt] *claims to be an *"Electrical Engineer"..*
> Does he have any *"Knowledge"* when it comes to *[DCC] *operations ??
> Is he a *"Registered Advisor"* for (N.M.R.A.) when it comes to *[DCC]* operations ??


1. Your reading skills need work.

2. I know a enough about DCC in particular and electronics in general that I could, if needs be, design and manufacture my own DCC decoders. 

I did design and build all new electronics/firmware/software for controlling my Walthers 130' Turntable because I did not like the 
electronics it came with.

3. Why would I want to spend my time being an "adviser"? I don't have enough time as it is for my own projects.


I'm not trying to be unkind here but compared to a number of folks here on this forum you are way over your head.

You may mean well but you have an odd way of showing it.

Frederick


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## gregc

ED-RRR said:


> fcwilt claims to be an "Electrical Engineer"..
> Does he have any Knowledge when it comes to DCC operations ??
> Is he a "Registered Advisor" for (N.M.R.A.) when it comes to DCC operations ??


I'm an EE and I believe fcwilt and john are making intelligent comments regarding DCC circuitry.

You don't need a diploma or to be a registered whatever to make intelligent comments nor to understand DCC theory nor to determine whether a circuit will work or not without testing.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm going to close this one now, I think we've beat it into the ground.


----------

