# Canadian 1960s frieght



## brandy (Feb 3, 2016)

Hi does anyone no what freight Canadian National or Pacific, would be pulling to New York.
1960s.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Well, neither railroad ran to New York city, but they did certainly run to the Ontario/New York state border at Niagara Falls and Fort Erie/Buffalo, interchanging just about any description of traffic to Lehigh Valley, New York Central, Norfolk & Western, Pennsylvania, etc.

Southern Ontario had and has a lot of manufacturing industry, including automotive, (lots of boxcars of all descriptions) and you'd also see a decent amount of paper (boxcars) and lumber (boxcars and flatcars) from northern Ontario or also western Canada and grain (in boxcars in the 1960s) from the central prairie provinces.

And of course all sorts of imports of American consumer & industrial goods into Canada.

So, basically almost anything appropriate for the era.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

There is also a lot of petrochemical industry in southern Ontario, which I don't know why I didn't mention in my first post since I live in a city with several oil refineries and chemical plants.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

It's not the answer to your question but in the 1960's the Delaware & Hudson had trackage from Montreal to Albany, NY. Passenger service between New York City and Montreal was done by transferring to New York Central at Albany.


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## brandy (Feb 3, 2016)

*Canadian freight*



cv_acr said:


> Well, neither railroad ran to New York city, but they did certainly run to the Ontario/New York state border at Niagara Falls and Fort Erie/Buffalo, interchanging just about any description of traffic to Lehigh Valley, New York Central, Norfolk & Western, Pennsylvania, etc.
> 
> Southern Ontario had and has a lot of manufacturing industry, including automotive, (lots of boxcars of all descriptions) and you'd also see a decent amount of paper (boxcars) and lumber (boxcars and flatcars) from northern Ontario or also western Canada and grain (in boxcars in the 1960s) from the central prairie provinces.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'm doing a new layout, was given an RS3 black with NYC logo on it. would they be seen together.


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## brandy (Feb 3, 2016)

Gramps said:


> It's not the answer to your question but in the 1960's the Delaware & Hudson had trackage from Montreal to Albany, NY. Passenger service between New York City and Montreal was done by transferring to New York Central at Albany.


Thanks for your help. May remove logos.


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## brandy (Feb 3, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> There is also a lot of petrochemical industry in southern Ontario, which I don't know why I didn't mention in my first post since I live in a city with several oil refineries and chemical plants.


Thanks for your help


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

It was common, especially in the 60's, when railroads had financial problems for one road to lease or purchase locos from another. If you are doing CN or CP you could keep your NYC loco in this matter.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

brandy said:


> Thanks I'm doing a new layout, was given an RS3 black with NYC logo on it. would they be seen together.


The Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo Ry. line from Hamilton to Niagara Falls was jointly owned by Canadian Pacific and NYC (trackage rights on CP between Toronto and Hamilton and NYC between Niagara and Buffalo). It wasn't unusual to have NYC (and later PC) power running through here.


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## brandy (Feb 3, 2016)

Gramps said:


> It was common, especially in the 60's, when railroads had financial problems for one road to lease or purchase locos from another. If you are doing CN or CP you could keep your NYC loco in this matter.[/QUO
> 
> 
> might just leave it boxed. Catcha.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"Grand Trunk Railway"..*



brandy said:


> Hi does anyone know what freight Canadian National or Pacific, would be pulling to New York..1960s..


[brandy]: Hello_:smilie_daumenpos:_
Sorry, I was unable to trace any Canadian Railways affiliated with New York Central (NYC)..

I was surprised that no-one mentioned the "Grand Trunk Railway"..
At one time this was a very huge railway operation..
You state that you are looking at the 60's era..

The Grand Trunk Railway (GT) was a railway system that operated:
Canadian Provinces:
- Quebec
- Ontario, 
American States:
- Connecticut
- Maine
- Michigan
- Massachusetts
- New Hampshire
- Vermont









GTW EMD SW 1200 yard switcher locomotive # 1515: 
- Durand Michigan on August/1967 <-- LooK .._
- 1950's era olive green 
- gold colors from the parent company Canadian National Railway..









Some green and gold GT locomotives rolled around in this color scheme in to the early 1970's..
The GTW began to replace this color scheme with a black with orange ends (Later Red) color scheme in 1961, 
with their "New Image" GT "Wet Noodle" logo, similar to the one used by the CN in the early 1960's..









......


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"RS3 Locomotive"..*



brandy said:


> Thanks I'm doing a new layout, was given an RS3 black with NYC logo on it. would they be seen together..


[brandy]: Hi Again..
What locomotive RS3 "Paint Scheme" do you have ??
Is it with -OR- without the "Lightning Stripe"..









If your RS3 does "Not" have the "Lightning Stripe", you can easilly modify this locomotive..
The model is all black plastic..
- Remove the painted on "New York Central" on both (x2) sides..
- Remove the painted on "NYC Emblems" on the front and back.. 
- Paint the (x2) ends "Orange"..
- Paint a light "Gray" around the bottom..
- Add "CN" -OR- "GT" wet noodle decales..








......


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ED-RRR said:


> [brandy]: Hello_:smilie_daumenpos:_
> Sorry, I was unable to trace any Canadian Railways affiliated with New York Central (NYC)..
> 
> I was surprised that no-one mentioned the "Grand Trunk Railway"..
> ...


Check your timeline.

Grand Trunk Railway become one of the constituent parts of Canadian National Railways in 1923. A few years before the 1960s.

Subsidiary Grand Trunk WESTERN (operating in Michigan and Illinois (into Chicago) only) remained in operation as a separate subsidiary of Canadian National. Central Vermont was another former GTR American subsidiary that remained separately operated after the CN merger.

GTW engines may have occasionally wandered into southern Ontario, but due to customs and import concerns, American and Canadian equipment was kept largely separate. They could cross the border, but had to return home within a certain amount of time to avoid duty or import charges.

Later free trade agreements either relaxed some of this or extended the time frames quite a bit, but import regulations are still a concern for international railways like CN and CP. Most modelers/railfans don't think of this.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Grand Trunk Railway Systems..*



brandy said:


> Hi does anyone know what freight Canadian National or Pacific, would be pulling to New York..
> *--> 1960's..*





cv_acr said:


> Check your timeline..
> Grand Trunk Railway become one of the constituent parts of Canadian National Railways in 1923..
> A few years before the 1960s..


I am not going to go through the complete history of Grand Trunk Railway Systems..
Who really cares ??_:dunno: _..
This "Thread" is "Only" in-regards of *[1960's]* freight between Canada and the United States..



cv_acr said:


> GTW engines may have occasionally wandered into southern Ontario, but due to customs and import concerns,
> American and Canadian equipment was kept largely separate..
> They could cross the border, but had to return home within a certain amount of time to avoid duty or import charges..
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this above *(Quote)* has absolutely nothing to do with model railroading..
My layout is “Late Steam” and “Early Diesel” [CN] & [GT] in Canada..
I have Canadian and United States freight cars.. 
Who really cares how long an individual can keep a [GT] [CV] U.S. locomotive operating on a Canadian Layout.._ :dunno: _.. 

Special Notes:
The more you dig into Grand Trunk Railways, the more confusing it will be..
There is also "Grand Trunk Western Railroad"..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Trunk_Western_Railroad
With the new corporation came a new autonomy for GTW from its parent CN. Grand Trunk Western had always shared equipment, 
color schemes and corporate logos with Canadian National..
It shared CN's herald styles with its own name on the previous "tilted herald" and "Maple Leaf" logos..
In 1960 when CN launched its new image GTW had its own initials incorporated into the "wet noodle" logo 
and followed with CN's black red/orange and gray locomotive color scheme. However, 
--> to show its new autonomy from CN in 1971 GTW began receiving its "New Locomotives" in its famous bright blue, red/orange and white scheme..

Grand Trunk Western Locomotives:
- Locomotive #5534 = 1977 (Chicago Illinois)..
- Locomotive #6223 = 2012 ..











brandy said:


> Hi does anyone know what freight Canadian National or Pacific, would be pulling to New York..
> *--> 1960s..*


Lets just keep it very simple.. (O.K.)..__..
I showed [brandy] what freight operated in the 1960's between Canada and the United States..(That He Had Requested)..
Fact:
During the *1960's *
- Canadian National [CN]
- Grand Trunk [GT]
- Grand Trunk Western [GT]
- Central Vermont [CV]
"All" had the same color schemes.. (1960’s)..
……


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

You missed the point entirely.

Yes, the topic is the 1960s, exactly. Grand Trunk Railway (not Grand Trunk Western) had been completely absorbed into CN for *40 years* at that point. So should absolutely not be on the list for 1960. That's why I said check your history...

My other point was that (due to international customs blah blah blah) the end result is there was very little mixing of GTW or CV and CN equipment in that time frame. Now, anyone can run whatever they want, but if you're asking the question "what actually did run" it *is* relevant.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ED-RRR said:


> [brandy]: Hello_:smilie_daumenpos:_
> Sorry, I was unable to trace any Canadian Railways affiliated with New York Central (NYC)..


Mentioned earlier, but NYC was the majority owner of the Toronto Hamilton & Buffalo Railway until their stake was sold to Canadian Pacific in the late 1970s.

Also, NYC operated clear across Ontario from Fort Erie to Windsor using the Canada Southern.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Me - I missed the point entirely..*



cv_acr said:


> You missed the point entirely..
> Yes, the topic is the 1960s, exactly. Grand Trunk Railway (not Grand Trunk Western) had been completely absorbed into CN for *40 years* at that point..
> So should absolutely not be on the list for 1960..
> That's why I said check your history...


This is where I "Only" get my information from..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Trunk_Railway

So I missed the point entirely..
Again, who really cares about operating a (100%) correct "Prototype" model train layout .. _ :dunno: _ 

Question: [cv_acr]
Is your model train layout operating system (100%) correct "Prototype" to the “Era” ?? _ _
……


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

ED-RRR said:


> Is your model train layout operating system (100%) correct "Prototype" to the “Era” ??


In my mind, yes, yes it is...

_throws another log on the fire_


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ED-RRR said:


> Is your model train layout operating system (100%) correct "Prototype" to the “Era” ??


Don't roll your eyes...

Nothing's ever 100% but with some research you can actually get reasonably close to representing the sort of traffic mix on a particular line or area.

I model a remote regional railway and I actually have a pretty darn good idea of the equipment, cargoes and operations of this railway. It can take a lot to acquire that sort of information, but its possible to put quite a lot together.

And again, I didn't say you have to go this way, but if one is asking "what operated here at this time" I assume they want to know, and sometimes the "whys" can be quite interesting and really informs what you see.

But, whatever...


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Possibly also somewhat related to the original question about NYC and freight from CN/CP from Canada, a good friend of mine is modeling a short piece of the PC line on the US side between Niagara Falls and Buffalo, which would have seen some traffic from Canada (off CP & THB) running over it.

The first post below has a map of the area relating some of the lines in the area, which may be of interest geographically to the original poster.

https://theniagarabranch.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/the-layout-concept-penn-centrals-caso-sort-of/
https://theniagarabranch.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/layout-concept-drawing-north-tonawanda-new-york/

He's done some good research on this area.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Also, check out this site for an amazing collection of information on NYC's Canada Southern subsidiary across Ontario:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/


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## SeaBlue52 (Mar 21, 2021)

This is assuredly a newby question, but I know I can get an answer from members of this forum. Would a 1960 or 1970 era Canadian National locomotive have a consist that includes CPRail freight, or vice versa? Do the railroads occasionally, or even regularly, combine freight?


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

SeaBlue52 said:


> This is assuredly a newby question, but I know I can get an answer from members of this forum. Would a 1960 or 1970 era Canadian National locomotive have a consist that includes CPRail freight, or vice versa? Do the railroads occasionally, or even regularly, combine freight?


North American railways connect and exchange or "interchange" cars so that cargoes can move across the country from a shipper served by one railroad, to a receiver on the other. So absolutely CP, as well as any US railroad equipment can end up on CN trains.


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## SeaBlue52 (Mar 21, 2021)

cv_acr said:


> North American railways connect and exchange or "interchange" cars so that cargoes can move across the country from a shipper served by one railroad, to a receiver on the other. So absolutely CP, as well as any US railroad equipment can end up on CN trains.


Thanks for the rapid reply. That makes sense, but there is much for me to learn.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

In fact, a good thumb rule, depending on the railroad, is that in any given train, about half the cars will be "home road", 40% will be from roads with direct interchange, and 10% will be from farther away. Mixing is definitely the rule rather than the exception.

I recently saw a Norfolk Southern train outside Pittsburgh with locos from 3 different railroads, and I counted at least a dozen different liveries on the cars.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The same has happened in Europe over the last several decades with cross-border operations a normal part of rail traffic today. Including locomotives. It is no longer strange to see an SBB locomotive on DB rails or an ÖBB locomotive traveling through Germany.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

All you really have to do to find out is to actually watch a train go by, and pay attention to the car road names.....you’ll immediately see that not all cars are the same home road name as the locomotives.....even the locomotives nowadays aren’t home road names.....


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## SeaBlue52 (Mar 21, 2021)

Old_Hobo said:


> All you really have to do to find out is to actually watch a train go by, and pay attention to the car road names.....you’ll immediately see that not all cars are the same home road name as the locomotives.....even the locomotives nowadays aren’t home road names.....





CTValleyRR said:


> In fact, a good thumb rule, depending on the railroad, is that in any given train, about half the cars will be "home road", 40% will be from roads with direct interchange, and 10% will be from farther away. Mixing is definitely the rule rather than the exception.
> 
> I recently saw a Norfolk Southern train outside Pittsburgh with locos from 3 different railroads, and I counted at least a dozen different liveries on the cars.


This is very helpful (and pretty specific).  Thank you ... I knew I would get good guidance on this forum.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

That rule of thumb doesn't always hold, but that's why it's only a "rule of thumb".

Considerations:

geography:
if you're modeling a "generic" line it works great. If you're modeling some actual line, geography plays in.
Over longer parallel routes (and CN and CP parallel each other across most of Canada) you won't see as much traffic from "competing" parallel lines vs. end-to-end connecting lines.
On dead-end "branch" lines, the only traffic you'll see is stuff originating or terminating there, with little "bridge" traffic. If it originates more traffic, you're more likely to see home-road cars. If all the traffic is inbound from elsewhere, you'll see higher percentages of "foreign" cars.
Some railways form a "bridge" route between two others, and will handle some "overhead" traffic between the two. This type of traffic would all be "foreign" cars.

ownership and fleet management:
the "rule of thumb" mentioned above applies to railroad-owned equipment. Also consider that a lot of equipment is privately-owned or leased by shippers. Private cars have reporting marks (initials in from of the car number) that end in "X" like UTLX for Union Tank Car etc.
most tank cars and other highly specialized cars (like covered hoppers for plastics, chemicals, and cement) are privately owned.
Sometimes the railroads themselves also lease cars with private owner "X" marks from major leasing companies
sometimes the cars leased to railways used railroad reporting marks "borrowed" under some agreement from various shortline railroads, which really adds to the variety of railroad marks out there. (The Northwestern Oklahoma RR (NOKL) operates only 5 miles of track, but their reporting marks show up on tens of thousands of freight cars, which are actually leased to various railways by Wells Fargo (formerly First Union)). This can really derail the "home road" percentage, since technically these are all operated by the home road

freight car "pools":
sometimes when some specially equipped cars are assigned to a dedicated service (for example, auto parts boxcars, which are never really "empty" because they return empty parts bins and racks to the parts factory) multiple railroads provide cars into a "pool" of cars dedicated for loading at that parts factory, usually based on their percentage of the miles the car travels from the parts factory to assembly plant. So even though the factory is on RR "A", cars from "B", "C" and "D" will all return empty to this plant for loading.
TTX/RailBox/RailGon - this is a nationwide pool of generic cars that freely travel over all/most of the North American railroads. For example the vast majority of auto carriers and trailer/container intermodal flatcars are owned by the TTX pool.

era:
this is important too, since you said 1960s. The whole "shortline reporting marks on leased cars" mentioned above wasn't really a thing in the sixties, and RailBox/RailGon didn't exist yet. That's a more post-1970s thing. You had far more generic cars and less specialization, although some boxcars were equipped with special features and specially equipped covered gondolas for coil steel transport were becoming more common. Auto parts and appliance boxcar pools were beginning to be a thing, and the earliest auto-rack flatcars were developed in the early 1960s (in the 1940s-50s autos were shipped in double door boxcars with specialized internal loading racks). Trailer- and container-on-flatcar (TOFC and COFC) were becoming more common at this point. TTX I believe was in it's infancy but the major Canadian railways were NOT members of this pool initially during the first several decades.

That's probably all far more "into the weeds", but Canadian railroading, especially period Canadian railroading has a tendency to up-end many of the tried and true rules of thumb, especially when border crossings, customs and import regulations come into play, which restricts how international cars move, and only having two major "Class I" true transcontinental railroad systems, vs. many smaller systems that at best only cover 1/4 to 1/2 of the country.


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