# New guy here...where do i start??



## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Hi everyone, been lurking around here for a while now, figured it was time to join up! Used to love playing with trains when i was a kid and i got a bunch of stuff from my grandfathers place when he passed a few years ago. Finally got it all moved into my own house this past weekend and i've found myself tinkering in the basement nearly everyday since!

I'm just wondering where you guys would suggest a newbie like me start. I'd really like to build my own layout, even got the board from the one i had as a kid. I've been cleaning track and tuning up locomotives all week, and trying to get my rolling stock in a bit better shape (everything is 30+ years old i would guess) but beyond that i'm not sure were to start my layout. I'm going to start taking all the old stuff off my board to start fresh, and i guess maybe try and come up with a plan of what i'd like to do for the layout. Comments and opinions are always welcome. Thanks!


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## IronManStark (Jan 15, 2017)

Wow! Nice start out !! 


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

It looks to be HO scale. How much room do you intend to allocate to the layout and is the floor damp? Does this need to be movable at sometime in the future?


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Yup HO scale. I was going to use the existing table, it's a bit smaller than 4x8. Then possibly add a smaller section to make an L shape. I'm limited to the room for now, if I decide I want bigger someday I'll have to move it someplace else I guess. Floor is concrete and usually dry, though there was a water issue last spring when the power went out overnight. Really want to include a Prairie style grain elevator, a tunnel, a bridge and a (small) port with freight yard in my layout...eventually


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Add some 1X4 for framework, it appears to be a little droopy with the 1/2" particleboard.


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## dee.and.dude (Oct 9, 2016)

Nice collection for a "start out" 


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks guys. Like I said, most of it came from my grandfather years ago. I've got a whole box of track that I haven't even looked at yet but probably needs cleaning. Is track all made equal? If not how do I tell the difference? Going to start taking all the old stuff off tonight so I have a clean slate.
Also, all my cars and locos have hook and horn couplers and alot are broken. is there anyway to update them with kadee ones or something?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Sounds like you are having fun. I bet most of your couplers are on the trucks. If you
want kadees, I would cut the old truck mounted coupler mounts off the truck. A dremel would be great for that. Then you would want to body mount the couplers. Many times
when you buy the kadees, they will come with the housing to mount the couplers. Next 
best thing to do might be to replace the trucks and get metal wheels. They roll so much better. I could spend all kinds of your money. Good looking locomotives you have. Have fun and welcome to the hobby. Be careful. It is very addictive.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Starting out*

dialed in;

I recommend starting with the book "Introduction to Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. You can get it through your hobby shop, or from https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/products/books 
This book covers many model railroad basic topics in easy text and photos. Also read the "beginner's Q&A" section of this forum, if you haven't already done so. It has a lot of good info on how to build a model railroad.
When it comes time to start building the table, I would suggest getting rid of the particle board that you have, and replacing it with a 4'x8' sheet of one half inch thick plywood. Particle board is very heavy and warps easily with moisture. You will be spraying water on your layout to attach ballast and other scenery. This, or even moisture in your basement could warp the 30yr. old particle board and make it pretty useless for laying smooth, flat track. Plywood is lighter, and does not warp as easily as particle board. Particle board is also difficult/impossible to drive small track nails into. The nails will bend, possibly damaging the track, and certainly frustrating the builder! (You)
Start fresh with a new, flat, sheet of plywood. Since you have already had water get into the basement once; it would be a good idea to paint the plywood as soon as you get it set up. Paint all sides with a dirt brown color of (ideally exterior, but interior will work) latex house paint. This will seal the plywood and serve as a good base coat for scenery later on. Often Home improvement stores have odd, unclaimed colors of house paint available cheap. It don't have to be pretty to seal out moisture! 
There is plenty more to learn, but take one step at a time, and enjoy!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## mjrfd99 (Jan 5, 2016)

traction fan said:


> dialed in;
> 
> I recommend starting with the book "Introduction to Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. You can get it through your hobby shop, or from https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/products/books
> This book covers many model railroad basic topics in easy text and photos. Also read the "beginner's Q&A" section of this forum, if you haven't already done so. It has a lot of good info on how to build a model railroad.
> ...


Agree 101% and will add -Room prep first. then a good base as Traction stated. We had a similar basement for our 3rd layout- water issues, do you have a sump pump? Think about a backup power source. 
Cracked block lets water in. Houses settle and cracks develop in the foundation We DRYLOCK'ed[ TM.] and used hydraulic cement to fill large cracks, did the floor and walls 100%. After that basement was nice and dry. This entailed grading property away from the house also. That helped keep water/rain away from the foundation big time. Hope our 2 cent helps


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

I know the feeling of getting started, I was away for 40 years and now that I am back I am loving it and as already stated it is very addictive, hope you have some self control.

To answer your question about track.
Your 30 year old track is probably brass which requires a lot of maintenance as far as keeping it clean, will be much worse being in a damp basement.
(I cleaned our Christmas layout which is almost all brass track and it was left in the garage until the following week, in that one week being in the unheated garage the brass track tarnished to the point the trains would not run.)
Steel track also requires a lot of cleaning/maintenance.
Today's track is Nickle/Silver and does not require as much maintenance and if it does tarnish it is usually still electrically conductive so you will not experience power loss.

My small layout is a mix of the 40 year old brass track I had and new Nickle/Silver track but it is indoors so I have had no issues although I do go over it with a track cleaning eraser and 91% rubbing alcohol every month or so.
I run my train for 2-3 hours Mon - Fri so when I see power loss I clean the track and wheels on the loco.

There are also track cleaning cars available to clean the track however I have never used one so I cannot tell you how well they work.

My local hobby shop has bulk boxes of N/S Atlas Snap Track for $1.55 per section so if you have a local hobby/train store they may have the same or you can look for deals online.

The main goal is to have fun...
Enjoy Your Trains!!!


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

After the advice from Bwells and TF looks like you're back to scratch regards your base! Not a bad thing as you need a good solid foundation as with building anything.

Track, buy the best you can afford, Peco's, Shinohara and others are good. Steer away from the built it trackbed, it will limit your track geonetry . some like Unitrack but its very expensive but good quality. 

Your thirty year old locos may be a problem to get working properly again. By all means try to work on them but today's loco products have come a long way since then. Buy just one current loco and see how it. compares with your own. At the budget end Bachmann are good so are the Walther's Trainman range. You can update your stock but again have a look at modern freight cars.

I'd go straight to DCC too as it will add so much enjoyment and the price difference is closing on DC.

Have fun.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

dialed in said:


> Thanks guys. Like I said, most of it came from my grandfather years ago. I've got a whole box of track that I haven't even looked at yet but probably needs cleaning. Is track all made equal? If not how do I tell the difference? Going to start taking all the old stuff off tonight so I have a clean slate.
> Also, all my cars and locos have hook and horn couplers and alot are broken. is there anyway to update them with kadee ones or something?


The upgrade to kadees is quite easy.

Clip off the old box for the horn hook coupler, Get some kadde couplers with draft boxes, and screw them on! You do have to get the height correct though. Oh, and put graphite on them!

Oh, +1 on going straight to DCC> you wont regret it.

this is the draft box.










If you are planning on upgrading your old cars, you'll probably be wanting metal wheels. Get your self a "Truck Tuner"
http://www.micromark.com/HO-Truck-T...Db5fQt-ihG0GaqO-LaMa2wHA70v5wYq05sxoCjT7w_wcB


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks for the tips guys! Basement is normally very dry, only issue last year was the mild winter and that late night power outage that caused my sump to quit. Going to fix it good this year with a bigger pit sunk into the floor and a disposable water alarm.

As far as my base, i was contemplating that yesterday while removing the old track, it has quite alot of flex when you're leaning on it all the way to the middle. I'm not 8yrs old anymore i guess! I think i'm going to build a good solid table in the shape i want so i can have the level changes i'd like to go with the scenery i have in mind.

As far as my locos and rolling stock go, i'm not going to put a ton of effort into the old stuff i dont think. The stuff i have now is in fairly good shape and i've been reading up on how much the models have come in the past 30yrs; so i think i will use what i have as is for now but focus more on slowly aquiring newer stuff the i can set up with DCC. I can always put the kadee couplers on one end of a few cars so i can run trains with both down the road.

I ordered a couple of books online this morning, thanks for the recommendations. I wish there were more hobby shops in my area where i could actually go and see things first hand (books, models, layouts etc) but unfortunately the closest ones i could find are 2+ hrs away. and the closest RR club is not much closer as well. so keep the tips coming fellas!


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## Tom17 (Jan 14, 2016)

You may need a dehumidifier for your basement.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

If you have a lot of cars with the old horn hook couplers, but can't really afford to change them all to Kadee's right now, make an adapter car. Put a Kadee on one end of one car, but leave the horn hook on the other end. Now all the cars with Kadee's can be on one side of the car, and all the cars with horn hooks can be on the other side. As you convert more cars to Kadee's, you simply change the position of the adapter car in the train.


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## IronManStark (Jan 15, 2017)

flyboy2610 said:


> If you have a lot of cars with the old horn hook couplers, but can't really afford to change them all to Kadee's right now, make an adapter car. Put a Kadee on one end of one car, but leave the horn hook on the other end. Now all the cars with Kadee's can be on one side of the car, and all the cars with horn hooks can be on the other side. As you convert more cars to Kadee's, you simply change the position of the adapter car in the train.




Here I thought I was the only one to do that because I'm broke most of the time from buying trains lol!! 


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## JimC (Jan 16, 2017)

Dialed In

I'm in exactly your position right now, though my stuff has a bit more........um, weathering. I've got a big box of random HO stuff that hasn't seen the light of day in 30+ years. 

Looks like a 12 year old me repainted the locos with a paint roller, the couplers are all broken, the track looks like it has been in a swamp, and someone wrote a bad word on the side of an F7B.

Guess I was hard on my toys. :goofball:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

IronManStark said:


> Here I thought I was the only one to do that because I'm broke most of the time from buying trains lol!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nah, that's pretty common. I did it.

I also had a DPDT switch to select between DC and DCC input while i converted all my locos to DCC.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Track choices*



dialed in said:


> Thanks guys. Like I said, most of it came from my grandfather years ago. I've got a whole box of track that I haven't even looked at yet but probably needs cleaning. Is track all made equal? If not how do I tell the difference? Going to start taking all the old stuff off tonight so I have a clean slate.
> Also, all my cars and locos have hook and horn couplers and alot are broken. is there anyway to update them with kadee ones or something?


dialed in;

No, all track is not made equal. That said, most track, including the old stuff you have, will work if it's cleaned up and has no obvious physical damage. If the rails on your old track look like a faded gold color, as opposed to a faded silver color, the rails are likely brass. Brass rail track requires more frequent cleaning than nickle silver, which is the preferred track of most modelers. That doesn't mean you can't use the brass stuff, just that it will require cleaning often. How to clean track? Well, if its been sitting in a box for thirty years, it's probably pretty dirty! If your track is all short (approx. 9" long) pieces then it likely has plastic ties, which is a good thing. If you have longer ( approx. 36" long and flex able, it may have plastic ties, or thin cardboard ties. Any cardboard tie track should go straight to the trash, as that's what it is. Any plastic tie track,long or short can be washed with water, a drop of household cleaner like 409 or fantastic, and an old toothbrush. This initial cleaning will get thirty years worth of crud off the ties and rails. The next cleaning stage would be to get the rail tops shiny. This can be done, (on the first cleaning in decades) with fine grit wet or dry sandpaper and alcohol. Subsequent cleanings won't need the sandpaper. Just wiping the rails with alcohol on a rag should be enough. There are several other methods of cleaning, but this is probably the simplest.
You mentioned "building a strong base table for your railroad. That's a good idea, but many modelers, especially new ones, go a bit crazy and overbuild the heck out of that table. They use 2x4 legs and sometimes 2x4 frames, and 3/4" thick plywood. This is not evil,or wrong, just very heavy when you have to move it, and somewhat more expensive for the oversized lumber. Remember it has to support model trains, not real trains. The "beginner's Q&A" section of the forum has some good directions for building a table. Another tip would be to mount large casters (preferably the kind with built-in brakes) on the bottoms of the legs. this will let you roll, rather than drag, the table out from the wall, when you need to. Trust me, if it's 4' across, and against a wall, you will need to move it!


Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

To make moving your layout around to get to all sides use these.
I have these under the legs of the table where my platform is, where my comouter/printer are and under the legs of my couch.
You can literally move heavy items with a finger.

The are made for carpeted and uncarpeted surfaces, come in different sizes and shapes and you can get them at any local store, Waltmart, Target, Home Depot, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001W6Q4V...t=&hvlocphy=9003849&hvtargid=pla-275669651671


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

thanks guys, i'll keep that in mind. Got some plywood and 1x3s yesterday to construct a good base out of. getting my room prepped as well, extra lighting and the like. Trying to put together a trackplan of what i want in a layout. Everytime i think i have it pretty much done or find a plan online that i like, i think of or find something better!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Layout design can get overwhelming.

Maybe it would help if you consider 'melding'
ideas. For example, you see a basic modified
oval you like, but you see in another layout a
switching situation that looks interesting. See if
you can't make them work together for you. Check all of
the on line track plans with that in mind. An idea here,
another there, and you've got your own layout.

Don


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks Don. I'm trying to do just that, but i'm finding figuring out the curve radius' hard. Some say 24" minimum for HO, others say can go as tight as 18" (which is what my old table has on it now). Last thing i read in the beginner q and a was go with flex track at 20". Here is what i'm leaning towards and space i've got set aside:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Go for as wide a radius as you can. You'll be glad
you did if you see one of those huge new 6 wheel
truck or big steamer that you want. Long passenger
and freight cars will look a lot better on the wide
curves also.

Am I seeing the possibility of a double reverse loop
in the upper area? That's good, you just need to
know how to wire it. Being able to turn your trains
around creates interesting operations.

Don

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Dialed --

There is no one curve radius that is "right" to go with. A lot depends on what you are running, equipment wise. If everything is short, in the 6-8" length range and with only two axles per truck, you can definitely use 18" radius curves. A good rule of thumb is radius = 2-1/2x the length of your longest equipment. Test your stuff to be certain. All else being equal, though, broader is better. Beyond that minimum, broader makes things look and, to a point, operate better (it's hard to couple / uncouple on an 18" curve, for instance).


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Furniture Sliders*



NAJ said:


> To make moving your layout around to get to all sides use these.
> I have these under the legs of the table where my platform is, where my comouter/printer are and under the legs of my couch.
> You can literally move heavy items with a finger.
> 
> ...


 Dialed in & NAJ;

Furniture sliders, like these that NAJ recommends are great for sliding heavy stuff with ease! I used them when I was repairing appliances for a living. Besides making it easy to move things, they also help protect the floor. This was a big consideration when I was moving some customer's stove, or refrigerator, across their expensive floor. 
Such sliders do have one downside when it comes to moving a model railroad however. Short of bending over, lifting one table leg at a time, and pulling the sliders completely out; there's no way of stopping them from sliding. If you happen to lean against the table to re-rail something, or clean track, the table will slide away from you. This is why, when suggesting casters, I recommended casters with brakes. You can set or release the brakes with your foot. No bending over. No lifting corners of the table, (likely with your back bent way over, which is very bad for your spine.) No tipping trains off the track while lifting table legs.

Sliders are good, in general, but for this particular job, I'd go with casters with built-in toe brakes.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Room Prep. And track planning*



dialed in said:


> thanks guys, i'll keep that in mind. Got some plywood and 1x3s yesterday to construct a good base out of. getting my room prepped as well, extra lighting and the like. Trying to put together a trackplan of what i want in a layout. Everytime i think i have it pretty much done or find a plan online that i like, i think of or find something better!


dialed in;

One other thing to think about when preparing the layout room. Electrical outlets. Typically basements don't have many. Usually just one or two near the washer and dryer. Model railroads not only run on electricity (even our "steam" locomotives! ) but they need places to plug in tools for construction and maintenance. (Soldering irons, lamps, saws, drills, Dremel tools, vacuum cleaners, Etc.) I mounted several plug strips to the front fascia of my layout. They allow me to plug in whatever I need, without dragging an extension cord around, or worse, over any part of the railroad.

As for track planning, have you looked at the "Layout Design" section of our forum? If not, you might want to look through it.

Track plans come in several types. Most beginners simply copy a published plan. That's certainly the easiest way to get something built quickly, which means you can run trains sooner, which helps keep you interested in the hobby. 
Old timers, like me, take a different approach. (Though we all built our first layouts from a simple, published, plan.) 
A model railroad (as opposed to a toy train setup.) is, by definition, an attempt to represent part of a real railroad in miniature. (The "real" railroad may be "freelanced" (imaginary) but it should still resemble a full-sized railroad enough to seem plausible.)
Real world railroads are vastly longer than they are wide. They may be a few miles long, or hundreds, even thousands of miles in length. A railroad's typical "Right-of-way" (the swath of land on which it is built) is seldom more than a hundred feet wide, though. 
That brings me to the venerable 4'x8' piece of plywood. It's a handy shape to try different track arrangements on, and it's often the largest continuous, rectangular, slab of "indoor real estate" that we can fit into our wives homes.
However, it doesn't even remotely resemble the extremely long, yet very narrow, shape of a railroad.
So what can a modeler do about this gross difference in shapes?
Well,like everything else in this hobby, that's up to the individual modeler. Some are content to do nothing about it. They are quite satisfied with running their trains around in loops that make it pretty obvious that the trains never get anywhere but around and around. There's nothing wrong with that.
Others visually divide their 4x8 with a scenery ridge, or double-sided backdrop, down the middle of the table.
With a Station/town on either side of the divider; this give a convincing impression that our train has actually gone from point "A" to point "B". 
Others physically divide their 4x8, with a saw, into two 2x8's, These can be set end to end, or end to edge, to form an "L" shape. In both cases the train travels twice as far, through a relatively long, and narrow, model world; that looks more like the real one. At some point though, many of us would like to have the train be able to turn around and go back. This can be done by attaching wider table sections, (like two 4'x4' pieces cut from a second 4'x8' sheet.) at each end of our railroad. these can support the wide turn-back loops needed for continuous running.
Other modelers dispense with the turn-back loops entirely and build what's called a "point-to point" railroad. This most closely replicates the real thing, as virtually all full-size railroads are laid out point-to-point. Trains are broken down, switched, and made up in yards, and locos are turned on turntables, or wyes, at one, or both, ends of the layout. 
Those are the main options you can choose from. None are "wrong" or "right" until YOU decide that one is "right" for you. 

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Well, I downloaded scarm today to help me try and get a plan together for my layout. Theres alot to it but i'm getting the hang of it. Just trying to select what track to go with in the program. Should i select the brand that i plan on getting specifically? I see that they have various stuff in each one, is any one brand better than the other iin terms of qualitiy and track selection? I'm leaning towards peco and shinohara; they seem to have the most stock in the online stores i frequent. Thanks for all your input thus far guys


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

DonR said:


> Go for as wide a radius as you can. You'll be glad
> you did if you see one of those huge new 6 wheel
> truck or big steamer that you want. Long passenger
> and freight cars will look a lot better on the wide
> ...


I had planned to do just a crossover, but i see the reverse loop now that you mention it! Are they difficult to wire?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you are running DCC the wiring is fairly simple.

In the case of your drawing, we would make much
of the upper left loop as an Isolated circuit. We would
make some of the trackwork coming down off of the crossing
to the right as an isolated section. It would require
2 reverse loop controllers. The wiring would be a pair
to the isolated section from the reverse controller in
each case. The input to the reverse controllers would
be your regular track buss. Then it's totally automatic.
You don't even know they are there when you run
your trains.

If you are running DC there would be several switches
and more complex wiring involved and you would
have to manually throw a series of switches each time a
train went through either isolated section. That would
limit continuous running somewhat in those areas.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

dialed in said:


> Well, I downloaded scarm today to help me try and get a plan together for my layout. Theres alot to it but i'm getting the hang of it. Just trying to select what track to go with in the program. Should i select the brand that i plan on getting specifically? I see that they have various stuff in each one, is any one brand better than the other iin terms of qualitiy and track selection? I'm leaning towards peco and shinohara; they seem to have the most stock in the online stores i frequent. Thanks for all your input thus far guys


The actual brand of track doesn't matter much, but you definitely need to use the exact turnouts you plan to use. Everyone's turnout geometry is a little different (usually the length of the legs), and they're not interchangeable without some re-jiggering of the surrounding track.


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

well, here is the rough sketch of what i'm envisioning/going to attempt to build. feel free to offer any opinions, improvement ideas etc. I need more practise using scarm before i'm going to be able to use it effectively i think, so if anyone sees anything with this that they dont think will work/is a bad idea let me know! I left the spurs on the very bottom and far left so that at some point i could add a section down the left to the bottom to make a big loop if i so desired.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Still an interesting layout.

Of most importance is the type of metal
used for the rails. Nickle/silver is the most
recommended for best electrical conductivity
and ease of maintenance. 

The track brand is only somewhat important.
More important is the design of the track.

Many of us advise avoiding any track attached
to roadbed. This track more or less limits you
to turnouts and accessories made by that brand.
It is quite incompatible with most other
brands. Your curve radius is limited to only
those offered by the maker.

You often will find that flex track is less costly
and easier to use. It comes as 3 ft sections that you bend to match your layout design. It is fully compatible between brands (except as noted above)
of standard track, turnouts, crossings and other track
accessories.


Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Suggestions aqnd a question for you*



dialed in said:


> well, here is the rough sketch of what i'm envisioning/going to attempt to build. feel free to offer any opinions, improvement ideas etc. I need more practise using scarm before i'm going to be able to use it effectively i think, so if anyone sees anything with this that they dont think will work/is a bad idea let me know! I left the spurs on the very bottom and far left so that at some point i could add a section down the left to the bottom to make a big loop if i so desired.


 dialed in;

Your track plan looks pretty good. One thing it doesn't show is the room around it. Will any side(s) of your table be butted up against walls? If not, and you can walk all the way around, then I don,t see any need to change the track plan. If one or more walls are against the table, then you may have some maintenance access problems. Ideally you would be able to get to any side of the table, without moving it. We don't always get that lucky. The next best option would be an easy-to-move table on casters equipped with brakes. The only caution for that would to install short Plexiglass "safety fences" along the layout's sides, to keep trains from rolling off the layout and falling to the floor, when the table is moved. (or any other time!) 
One other thing I would suggest is to cut/round off all the sharp 90 degree corners projecting out from the table. Moving around the table, sooner or later, you'll bash your hip against one, and it won't feel good! Possibly the cut off corners can be re-used to fill in the "inward corners" making them less obvious, and providing a bit more area for some of your curves. If you look at the aisle in the center area, you may see what I'm referring to.

Other than that, it looks like you have a good start!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Suggestions aqnd a question for you*



dialed in said:


> well, here is the rough sketch of what i'm envisioning/going to attempt to build. feel free to offer any opinions, improvement ideas etc. I need more practise using scarm before i'm going to be able to use it effectively i think, so if anyone sees anything with this that they dont think will work/is a bad idea let me know! I left the spurs on the very bottom and far left so that at some point i could add a section down the left to the bottom to make a big loop if i so desired.


 dialed in;

Your track plan looks pretty good. One thing it doesn't show is the room around it. Will any side(s) of your table be butted up against walls? If not, and you can walk all the way around, then I don,t see any need to change the track plan. If one or more walls are against the table, then you may have some maintenance access problems. Ideally you would be able to get to any side of the table, without moving it. We don't always get that lucky. The next best option would be an easy-to-move table on casters equipped with brakes. The only caution for that would to install short Plexiglass "safety fences" along the layout's sides, to keep trains from rolling off the layout and falling to the floor, when the table is moved. (or any other time!) 
One other thing I would suggest is to cut/round off all the sharp 90 degree corners projecting out from the table. Moving around the table, sooner or later, you'll bash your hip against one, and it won't feel good! Possibly the cut off corners can be re-used to fill in the "inward corners" making them less obvious, and providing a bit more area for some of your curves. If you look at the aisle in the center area, the curve connecting the river crossing to the "farm land" square section of table, at the upper left; you may see the two "inward corners" I'm referring to.

Other than that, it looks like you have a good start!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

The two long sides (top and right) will be against a wall, but i'm planing to build the table on castors as suggested to make access i bit easier. I like your idea of trimming the large triangular edges and fitting them into the inward corners. Might allow me more room to do a bit of scenery in front of the tracks at the top of the aisle.
Guess i'm going to start constructing my table this weekend. Some have suggested to layer it with 1-2" of foam board to make landscaping easier?


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

I WOULD USE THE FOAM. U WANT EXTRUDED FOAM NOT THE CHEAPER BEAD BOARD TYPE. AND DON'T GET ANYTHING THAT HAS A FOIL VAPER BARRIER ON IT.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

dialed in said:


> The two long sides (top and right) will be against a wall, but i'm planing to build the table on castors as suggested to make access i bit easier. I like your idea of trimming the large triangular edges and fitting them into the inward corners. Might allow me more room to do a bit of scenery in front of the tracks at the top of the aisle.
> Guess i'm going to start constructing my table this weekend. Some have suggested to layer it with 1-2" of foam board to make landscaping easier?


Is it safe to assume that you will have a double slip turnout next to the fuel tanks (or whatever those round things are -- I can't read the label). Otherwise your turntable is unreachable.

2 other comments / concerns:
1) No turning of trains. Once clockwise, always clockwise. You can turn the LOCO on your turntable, but not a whole train.

2) The over / under may create a difficult grade situation. Even at a 3% grade, which is on the steep side, you may not have enough room to create the necessary 3" vertical separation for the over / under without impacting your yards / passing tracks. Having these on a grade will be a major headache.

I would definitely use foam, especially because you have water features that you're certainly going to want well below track level. You don't even need plywood underneath. 2" foam on 18" joists is plenty strong enough. For you to crawl on, even.


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> Is it safe to assume that you will have a double slip turnout next to the fuel tanks (or whatever those round things are -- I can't read the label). Otherwise your turntable is unreachable.
> 
> 2 other comments / concerns:
> 1) No turning of trains. Once clockwise, always clockwise. You can turn the LOCO on your turntable, but not a whole train.
> ...


Yes, that will be a double slip turnout allowing access to the fuel tanks, car shop and the turntable.

1) i considered that i wont be able to turn complete trains-at least not yet. If i get this finished i can always add in the loop i left track access for on the bottom and the top left.

2) how much length is needed to get to 3" at, say a 3%? If i start it just after the tunnel entrance behind the roundhouse, i've got a good 5ft to get to the tunnel exit and my bridge, and close to the same on the opposite side coming down again


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

if someone has a better grasp than me of scarm or another program feel free to see if this would actually work or not. please dont feel obligated though!


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*New Layout designed ?*

Welcome back into the hobby!
Alot of excellent suggestions and Ideas so far!
I would like to add also.If at all possible try to put wheels with 
a brake on the bottom of the sturdy train table legs.(Fastened
with carriage bolts.)
I think that's a good way and helps in re-positioning your train
table in your train room.
It may also be wise to have it tested for radon gas if you have 
the Train table located in the basement.:dunno: :hah: RADON GAS:smilie_daumenneg: Regards,tr1
Good luck there with that!


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## thysell (Jun 8, 2013)

slope = (rise / run) * 100%

run = rise * 100% / slope

run = 3" * 100 % / 3 %

run = 100"

run = 8 feet 4 inches. 

Don't forget you need a lead in and lead out to go from level to 3% slope or low hanging stuff at the front or rear of locos or cars can ram into the track right at the change in slope. Couplers may separate too. I discovered this the hard way!

5 feet = 60 inches
slope = (3/60) * 100%

slope = 5%


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Extruded foam fo scenery*



dialed in said:


> The two long sides (top and right) will be against a wall, but i'm planing to build the table on castors as suggested to make access i bit easier. I like your idea of trimming the large triangular edges and fitting them into the inward corners. Might allow me more room to do a bit of scenery in front of the tracks at the top of the aisle.
> Guess i'm going to start constructing my table this weekend. Some have suggested to layer it with 1-2" of foam board to make landscaping easier?


 dialed in;

Yes, the suggestion of adding a sheet of extruded foam is a good one. This material is sold in 4'x8' sheets in home improvement stores. Its original purpose is home insulation, but it has been adopted by model railroaders as a new and neater method of making basic land forms such as mountains, valleys and hills. The foam is usually pink (made by Owens Corning) or blue( made by Dow) don't sweat the garish colors, it will all be painted and covered by dirt & grass, later. Avoid the white "bead board" often called Styrofoam. This is much cheaper but it is also much weaker, and infinitely messier! The beads go everywhere as soon as you cut the foam. 
Extruded foam can be cut with a sharp kitchen knife, an electric carving knife, a hot knife, and many kinds of small hand saws. There is also a special tool for this job called a hot wire foam cutter. It and the hot knife, melt their way through the foam, rather than actually cutting. Be sure to have plenty of ventilation, and wear a respirator when using either hot tool to melt the foam. Heated plastic produces nasty, and dangerous fumes. If you elect to use a hand saw, or non-heated knife, there won't be any fumes, but there will be a bit more mess. Like cutting wood, cutting foam produces dust. The dust is harmless unless you eat it or snort it :laugh: A shop vac will take care of the dust quickly and easily.

Happy building;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*No doubble slip & calculating grades*



dialed in said:


> Yes, that will be a double slip turnout allowing access to the fuel tanks, car shop and the turntable.
> 
> 1) i considered that i wont be able to turn complete trains-at least not yet. If i get this finished i can always add in the loop i left track access for on the bottom and the top left.
> 
> 2) how much length is needed to get to 3" at, say a 3%? If i start it just after the tunnel entrance behind the roundhouse, i've got a good 5ft to get to the tunnel exit and my bridge, and close to the same on the opposite side coming down again


 dialed in;

Double slip switches look neat, especially when visitors see them in operation, with all the routes. However they are a notorious maintenance headache, both in model and full size form. Prototype railroads avoid using them, preferring to use its more reliable, operational equivalent ; two turnouts in a row, one left and one right. The only place the real railroads used double slips switches was in congested areas where physical space obstacles, high real estate costs, or both, mandated it. They were often used in passenger stations because the could let a train onto any track, and made run around moves easier for locomotives. But even in stations, room permitting, they were not used.
In model form, there is another disadvantage. High cost. Double slips are not even available from some turnout manufacturers; and where they are, double slip switches are usually the most expensive type in the product line. 
You are just starting out. I strongly recommend that you not add unnecessary, potential problems to your layout. You will have plenty to deal with just in building, and running a fairly ambitious first layout.

Grade percentage is simply the amount of horizontal travel required to rise a certain amount vertically. In your question, you know the vertical rise-3", and you know the percentage you want 3%. 

The formula is:

__3(%)__ = _3_(inches)
100(%) X (inches)

3x=300

1x=100 (inches) of basic grade travel. But wait! (as they always say on the infomercials) there's more! 
In addition to the length of your 3% grade, you will also need extra track length for "vertical easements" at the top crest, and at both lower ends of the "up and over" track. So what the heck is a vertical easement? It's a length of milder grade (say 1.5%) at the beginning(s) and end of the main grade, that "ease" the train's transition from flat running to climbing a steep grade. This does several things. It helps the train get up the grade. It keeps the transitions from flat to 1.5% and from 1.5% to 3% milder. This means that the projecting front and back parts of a loco, like pilots, couplers, and such won't try to dig their way into the track bed, or "reach for the sky" and possibly uncouple from the next loco or car.
I would suggest adding three 1.5% sections of 25"-30" length each to the top, and both bottoms of the main grade. That extends the overall grade from 100" to 175"-190". Do you have that much track available, outside the yards, which need to be flat, so cars don't roll around.

If not, there are two other choices.

1) have the track below the crossover bridge lower. You can split the 3" separation "chore" between two grades. The bottom track has a grade going down, as the top track's grade goes up. 

2) use a crossing instead of a grade. There are a lot more places where two tracks, even if they belong to two different railroads, cross at grade (with a crossing) than overpasses. Track belonging to one railroad crossing over itself was pretty rare in the real world. Tehatchapi loop, and the spiral tunnels are two famous examples, and there are a few others. But this track arrangement is mostly found on model railroads, not much on real ones. 
Crossings of two different railroads offer a big operational advantage of interchange traffic. (cars shipped on railroad 'A' need to switch to railroad 'B' to reach their destination.) This was common as dirt in the steam era, and after. In fact, it continues today, although there are fewer railroad companies due to mergers.
Crossings also pose a challenge, and add operating interest, because they require signal protection to keep trains from colliding unless you're Gomez Addams in which case collisions would be considered a good thing!;
When signals are added, our crossing becomes an "Interlocking".
In "olden days", this is where those two-story, square, towers would go. They are called "interlocking towers" for that reason. Historically, the tower operator would control the signals, any turnouts, (for interchange tracks) and derails. These would make it impossible for more than one train to travel through the "interlocking plant" at the same time. Depending on era and construction date, the controls would be manual "Armstrong" levers, or electrical. in both cases they would be set up so that only one route could be used at a time. 

More stuff to decide!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

dialed in said:


> if someone has a better grasp than me of scarm or another program feel free to see if this would actually work or not. please dont feel obligated though!


I could, but I don't need to. Even at 4%, which in mynopinion is an unacceptable steep grade, you would need over 6 feet. Splitting the grade between the over and under may get you there, but if you're using any grade steeper than 2%, you should use an easement, and that needs even more room.

Unfortunately, grades aee one place where newcomers tend to blunder into trouble, underestimating the effects of steep grades, or not understanding how much space is required for gentle ones.


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Well looks like it will be a crossing for this cat...unless i make my layout even bigger!! Just kidding. A crossover will be fine for now, i was contemplating putting a dividing backer board somewhere anywhere to give the illusion of traveling some distance out to the grain elevator so maybe i can find a way to put it in there someplace to hit the crossover. I'll make it work.

On another note, after i finish upgrading my basement sump today and then getting the table set up this week, we've got some farm business to do this thurs/fri that is going to take me pretty close to a pretty big model train shop. Going to have to make a stop i think!


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

dialed in said:


> we've got some farm business to do this thurs/fri that is going to take me pretty close to a pretty big model train shop. Going to have to make a stop i think!


it's always fun to stop at a well stocked shop and put eyes on what's available.
Take along some smelling salts, sticker shock might get you.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I hope you at least get a loop of track down and enjoy running your neat old trains a bit before you go spending a bunch of money.
Several here run trains regularly as old or older than what you have, so if you need some help getting yours going PM me, I run a fleet of them and still use Horn hook couplers on everything.

To the MTF friends here:
Look at the OP, then read through this thread. Are you trying to terrify people away looking for simple advice? All things in good time. Help these guys get running first, then help them advance if need be. Its like a frontal assault every time somebody needs a bit of help. BTW, my basement seeps, I keep a fan running.


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

time warp said:


> I hope you at least get a loop of track down and enjoy running your neat old trains a bit before you go spending a bunch of money.
> Several here run trains regularly as old or older than what you have, so if you need some help getting yours going PM me, I run a fleet of them and still use Horn hook couplers on everything.


dont worry,i have been. have two of them tuned up pretty good now. going to see if they have any hook horn couplers so i can repair some of my old rolling stock and my old locos. Several of my locos are dead on the rails however though, alot of corrosion and rust under the hood. i dont have alot of hope for them. Same with the big box of track i have too, i'm finding alot of it is bent and ties broken, now to mention being covered in rust. I'll use what i can but i'm going to try and pick up a bit of flex track and some turnouts so i can at least start on my layout/play a bit.

They apparently have a big layout setup in shop so i'm sort of excited to how the newer stuff works and ask some questions. Really want to set up the new layout with dcc. Been reading about the digitrax zephyr, which has a port apparrently to allow for a single loco to run on dc which running dcc on others? Or did i interpret that incorrently? Would be handy...just in case i cant control myself and have to get a (moderately priced) new loco. Thanks for everything so far fellas. Having a blast :smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Most DCC systems have the capability of controlling
a DC loco on the DCC track.

However, you must be very careful. DCC track
is powered with a form of AC. A loco sitting idle
on that track would likely burn out it's DC motor.

If you have several DC locos and plan a DCC system
you would best keep a DC power pack and connect
it and your DCC controller to the track
through a double pole/double throw (DPDT) switch.
That would make possible running EITHER your
DC locos, OR your DCC locos. But you should have
a spur track with an on/off switch where you can
park your DC locos when running DCC.

Also important that you NEVER have DC and
DCC power on the track at the same time. You
would likely damage your DCC controller.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Rusty track?*



dialed in said:


> dont worry,i have been. have two of them tuned up pretty good now. going to see if they have any hook horn couplers so i can repair some of my old rolling stock and my old locos. Several of my locos are dead on the rails however though, alot of corrosion and rust under the hood. i dont have alot of hope for them. Same with the big box of track i have too, i'm finding alot of it is bent and ties broken, now to mention being covered in rust. I'll use what i can but i'm going to try and pick up a bit of flex track and some turnouts so i can at least start on my layout/play a bit.
> 
> They apparently have a big layout setup in shop so i'm sort of excited to how the newer stuff works and ask some questions. Really want to set up the new layout with dcc. Been reading about the digitrax zephyr, which has a port apparrently to allow for a single loco to run on dc which running dcc on others? Or did i interpret that incorrently? Would be handy...just in case i cant control myself and have to get a (moderately priced) new loco. Thanks for everything so far fellas. Having a blast :smilie_daumenpos:


dialed in;

If the rails of any of your old track are covered in actual rust(orange color not just dirty or tarnished gold color) then they are steel. A magnet can test this idea. If the magnet sticks to the rails, they're steel. Steel railed track was like the Edsel of model railroading. It was introduced, and promptly flopped as far as interest was concerned. It was also the most temperamental track, in terms of needing the most frequent cleaning. I would suggest junking any steel rail track.:smilie_daumenneg: 
When you visit that hobby shop they will have nickle/silver track, which is the standard used by most modelers. I would go with nickle/silver.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Back again! Been a crazy week getting ready for my little road trip tomorrow, excited to see this shop/layout on friday! Been playing with the sketch i posted several days ago, its changed a little bit to something with out grades, let me know what you think. Dont mind that turnout on the south side of the bridge, i'll clean it up, just didnt feel like redrawing the whole south yard. Let me know if you think there'll be any issues with this one...

Also, dont mind the juice stain, forgot to wipe the table when i sat down after supper :laugh:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think it's time to start building...


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

I'm back fellas....and I've been busy! Finished my second bench this afternoon and just finished gluing down the foam. Just gotta bolt it together and I can start laying track...as soon as it gets here in the mail. store I visited last week was awesome! I'm not sure how he fit so much into such a small building. Didn't have a layout there but he did have a small test track where I got to play with a couple of new dcc locos with sound. Pretty cool! After seeing the price on some of the new rolling stock he had, i left with a whole bunch of kadee couplers, gearboxes and metal wheels to convert all of my old rolling stock. And he was having a sale on locomotives too, so naturally i had to pick up one of them as well and a dcc controller. All in all i'm surprised how much self control i displayed! :laugh:

More updates as they come!


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Looks like you're off to a good start.
What kind of DCC did you get?

Nothing wrong with fixing up older cars, most of mine are old Athearn Blue Box cars 
and they do just fine with metal wheels and good couplers.

One thing though when you lay your track if you're gluing it use 
very little glue or chalk, you'll no doubt want to, or need to, make changes.


Magic


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Got the nce power cab...so easy to set up and use! Very very happy with it so far. I've read that less is best when using caulking to lay track so thats what i'll be shooting for. 

Not sure what the general opinion is around here but the owner of the shop sold me on the reliability of unitrack turnouts, and how easy they convert from manual to remote controlled. Any thoughts?


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I think Unitrack turnouts come with a remote control motor. You will need to run them through a accessory decoder (there are several on the market) then you give them an address, just like your loco and control them from your PowerCab.

Sure Unitrack is reliable but you are stuck with their geometry so if using a freelance plan you might struggle to find the bits to fit. I have seen people use a saw to put multiple cuts in the base which makes for a bit of flexibility. The other point to make is it's not cheap but I guess you know that already.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Unitrack is probably the best of the roadbed track, and it certainly comes with the most varieties (although it's metric measurements make it a little wonky for some of us).

That said, since you already have a workable design, I'm afraid I would have recommended that you go with flex track and commercial turnouts (Walthers, Peco, or MicroEngineering) instead. If the geometry of the pieces doesn't line up with what you've drawn, you may have a real headache on your hands.

And while I think most businessmen are fundamentally honest, never forget that he has a vested interest in selling you something off of his shelf rather than getting you to the absolute best product for your situation.


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