# American Flyer Hiawatha Tin Plate set



## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

While I'm restoring my Royal Blue set, I've been picking up pieces of prewar tinplate. So far I have a AF Hiawatha and tender, a #1205 & 1207 cars, a 119 tender and a 1218 Steeple cab.

The 1218 Steeple Cab has been previously restored and came with the coal tender. It may be missing the handrails but it does run. I'm going to give the motor a tuneup and see if I can get it to run better. The 119 coal tender has beautiful but scratched lithography.










The two mis matched cars. Some did a botched up job a long time ago of painting these cars including a hand painted clear coat on the litho. It is very likely that I will strip the litho and paint over these cars. 











The Hiawatha. It is bent, rusty, broken and it doesn't run. Isn't it a beauty?









.
.



Does anybody have any information on the Hiawatha? The model number and year?



.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

*The Hiawatha motor*

Here is the Hiawatha motor. It doesn't run and it shows a LOT of wear. I suspect a broken wire somewhere. It came with an air chugger. That's pretty cool.










So my first step to restoring this motor is replacing the wheels. The gears are shot on these wheels and I don't think I can fix the gear teeth with epoxy. Does anybody know where I can get replacement wheels?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sky,

Beautiful tinplate. Now I'm the jealous one. 

Why did the (Gorgeous!!!) elec loco come with a coal tender?

I like the toy-like look of that Hiawatha. For a moment, the pickups looked Marx to me, but I see the big AF on the front, of course. Did you try Port Lines for AF replacement parts (wheels, etc.). I got a Lionel prewar tinplate wheel set from Jeff Kane (Train Tender), in the off-chance that they might fit your loco, if you get in a jam finding true AF wheels. The gear teeth would have to match, of course.

Are you SURE you want to strip the litho passenger cars? They don't look to bad from these pics.

Cheers,

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks for the complements on the steeple cab. I wondered if anybody was going to catch the fact that the electric loco has a coal tender.

I've been looking for wheels for the Hiawatha for a couple weeks now and about all I can find are wheels that MIGHT fit. I don't want to randomly buy wheels in case they MIGHT fit. TJ, if you could shoot a picture of your "L" wheels with a ruler that would be great!

Yeah, I'm not SURE about the litho cars. One of the cars, the litho is crackled and the other car was hand painted with clear. 

What I DO want to do is paint a consist of cars in matching colors to match the Hiawatha. And these litho cars would be a great candidate.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Well, I'll be darned. The ebay seller that sold me the Hiawatha just put up the rest of the set and I scored it! Here's a picture from ebay.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Sky, did you take that motor apart, or get it that way?
The chugger has a gasket. I have the same motor for one of my AF 4?? engines. 
I'll look for the pics.
Jim


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sky,

Now THOSE red passenger cars you CAN strip.  Until your heart's content! Strip, strip, strip, strip ... strip away! (Imagine a little Talking Heads play on music here!)


I took some quick mic measurements of my Lionel Jr. wheels:

Front side:









A 1.430" diameter
B 1.325"
C 1.000"
D 0.380"
E 0.125"

On back side:










57 gear teeth per wheel.

Depth of wheel (in direction of axle) ...
Wheel with gear 0.430" (gear teeth depth approx 0.150")
Wheel without gear 0.300"

(Actually ... just looking closer now at the pics of your wheels ... not a good match ... big difference in the gear layout.)

Hope this helps,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have no source for prewar AF.:dunno:
I can ask at Port Line Hobbies, I plan on visiting them soon.
Have fun on the restoration!:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TJ how about hand painted black in between the spokes?
Leave just the spokes themselves red?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> TJ how about hand painted black in between the spokes?
> Leave just the spokes themselves red?


Are you offering? I'll send 'em to you next time! 

In reality, that'd be pretty tricky to do. Once I start brushing the paint on, it has a tendency to flow into the nooks and crannies of the wheels. It would be very painful to try to paint just the flats, without the spokes. Would look nice, but too crazy for me.

(Sky ... back to you and the Hiawatha ...)

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Are you offering? I'll send 'em to you next time!
> 
> In reality, that'd be pretty tricky to do. Once I start brushing the paint on, it has a tendency to flow into the nooks and crannies of the wheels. It would be very painful to try to paint just the flats, without the spokes. Would look nice, but too crazy for me.
> 
> ...


If you get a little brush and do it in a couple coats. 
Almost like dry painting.
You will need a steady hand.
Just a thought.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Mask them before you paint. It's not that hard to cut tape to match and mask them first.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Stillakid, Yeah, I took the motor apart. I wanted to know what the heck was that hanging off the front of the motor.

Next I gotta figure where the broken wire is.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

TJ, Thanks for taking the time to measure out your wheels. My wheels are 1.455" dia and the gear is 1.425 dia so no, those wheels will not work.

Your wheels look just fine to me.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

From another forum,



> Hi SkyArcher,
> 
> Welcome back. What you have is an example of one of Flyer's uncataloged engines. It is a Type XXIV (according to Greenberg's designation) sheet metal Hiawatha. It is most likely the #634 engine. It was cataloged in 1936 and 1937. It came in both a windup version and the electric version that you have here. The wind up version and the electric version each pulled freight or passenger sets. The engine with the rounded back is usually assigned to pull the streamlined passenger cars, while the square back version of the engine pulled a freight consist. Flyer did not stick strictly to that practice. The tender that you have is a 3192 Type X tender.
> 
> ...


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

OT BTW If I were to try to paint those wheels I would use a Testors paint pen or maybe even a Sharpie pen.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Motor Wiring............*

Sky, here's a couple of pictures that might help.
BTW, this motor is a PITA to work on!
The pick-up fiberboard on mine was so swollen and disfigured I had to take a safety razor to it to shave the inserts down so they would fit back in. I trimmed them on a bias so they'd slip back in, but now, unless I take the wheels off AGAIN, there's not enough flex to the frame to get it back in. Oh Well!!!:laugh:

When I got this, there were what appeared to be 2 humps of solder on the center rail pick-up. My guess is that one is for the motor(brush) and one for the headlamp. In the picture, hopefully you can see where the field is soldered to the frame. The other field wire goes to the other brush.

Also, you may need to shim up the armature plate. Mine was swollen & slightly bent and was binding the armature.

Good Luck with this and if you need more pics, let me know.

Regards,
Jim

View attachment 5974


View attachment 5975


View attachment 5976


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Hey Stillakid, thanks for the pictures! You're not using those wheels are you? lol

I spent a bit of time studying the motor last night and that motor was NOT designed to be rebuilt. As soon as I can find my drill, I'm going to drill out all the rivets and replace the standoffs with nuts and bolts. I want to get the armature out so that I can face off the commutator. Yeah my fiber board is swollen as well.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm confused ... 

The armature shaft runs side-to-side. The axle turns a gear on the sidecheek of the motor, which turns the gears embedded into the wheels. So ...

What's the work gear setup on the bottom of the motor do? Is that a P.T.O. for the chugger assembly ???

I've never seen something like that before. Nice pics, Jim ... I'm having a blast looking over your guys' shoulders.

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

The gear on the bottom has a cam on it that opens the valve that makes the chugging noise.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ahh ... I see the chugger up in the pics in Post #2 ... got it. Thanks!

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

While I was at Checker's Auto parts store (aka O'Reilly) I found this battery terminal puller for $3.99. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/OSS0/08515.oap?keyword=battery+puller 

A little Dremel work and a pin made from a broken drill bit and viola, a cheap wheel puller. 











I drilled out the rivets in the side plates and split the chassis. What I found wasn't pretty. The axle holes are oblong. It doesn't look like the chassis was lubed in 75 years. After I give it a good cleaning, I'll have to decide how to rebuild and rebush all of the bearings. I still haven't found a set of replacement wheels.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sky,

Very nice pinectomy on the wheel puller. Clever.

Pretty bold pulling/drilling the motor cheeks apart. You're "past the point of no return", I guess!

Is that bushings I'm seeing on the axle on the left, in the photo above? Were they normally press-fit into the motor cheeks?

Not an ideal option, but if you can't find replacement wheels, can you replace them with some other set ... along with a new (and mating) gear on the armature shaft, to make them all line up? Ahhh ... forget I said that ... not very authentic. Looks like some old AF ebay hunting is in your cards.

Did you have adequate health insurance coverage on this thing?!? Or life insurance coverage? 

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Sky,
> 
> Pretty bold pulling/drilling the motor cheeks apart. You're "past the point of no return", I guess!
> 
> ...


I plan to replace the rivets with nuts and bolts when I reassemble it. There are no bushings. I will have to buy or make new bushings for the axles. We'll see how it goes.

BTW the Life insurance expired on this Hiawatha. Let's see if I can bring it back to life....


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Found another motor. Tonight I plan to strip her...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sky,

That's good news.

So, do parts from A go into B, or parts from B go into A ?!? I ask that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but somewhat seriously, I guess. I've faced similar questions on a few motor and loco fix-it projects I've fiddled with.

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Don't tell anybody but I'm going to temporarily retrofit a Scout motor into the Hiawatha. It looks like it will fit without modifying the original shell and I'll be able to run the Hiawatha for Christmas.  Later after Christmas, I'll buckle down and see what I can do to the original motor.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

... what was that? Did I hear something? Hmmm ... all quiet now ... must have been my imagination ...

(Actually, I like the idea ... if it gets you running, and is un-doable ... seems like a perfect Christmas setup solution!)

Oh ... and a note to all of you AF guys out there ... take note: Lionel O steps in to save the day! 

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is a progress picture. Easy-Off took the lithography right off. I need to buff the parts out some more with my Scotchbrite pad mounted to my Dremel.

Here is a question, what does tin plating look like? Some of the parts have a blue coating. Some have a shiny chrome like coating and some of the parts have a black coating.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> ... what was that? Did I hear something? Hmmm ... all quiet now ... must have been my imagination ...
> 
> Oh ... and a note to all of you AF guys out there ... take note: Lionel O steps in to save the day!
> 
> TJ


Yeah:thumbsup:, I usually use that motor under my table leg to keep my table from wobbling while I'm running my American Flyer.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It' hard to keep up with you and Timboy!

First, the battery puller, for comparison I got one from E bay for 24 bucks. It had a machined end that flattened out over time. I ended up inserting an allen wrench shaft. The case is just too soft and warped. I have had some hard pullers but I don't reccommend it for expensive pristine wheels. It does mar them up. 

If it works for you go for it. I plan on getting a factory puller in the future.

The blue is probably gun blue finish. Lionel used it on frames and trucks. It appears to be a good idea I couldn't locate any yet. I guess my Wally stores are too high falootin city types to carry it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

SkyArcher said:


> Yeah:thumbsup:, I usually use that [O] motor under my table leg to keep my table from wobbling while I'm running my American Flyer.


 Good one! :laugh:

Re: tinplate stripping ... most of the stuff I've done gets down to virgin, shiny metal. However, occasionally I'll have a stamped section (sometimes just one piece out of a full loco set) where the metal in inherently a darker color, despite any stripping efforts. T-Man mentions metal blueing, which was done on some motor casings and trucks and the like. But I don't think that's what I've been finding on my end. For some reason, some metal tinplate parts are just inherently darker than others.

When I first started stripping (uhh ... on the trains ... we'll leave discussions of my extra cirricular income to another thread!), I started out very gingerly ... very soft brass brushes, soft buffing pads, etc. As my comfort level grew, and I realized I needed to expedite things a bit, I've slowly transitioned to using a spinning Dremel stainless steel brush as my primary workhorse tool (after EasyOff strip baths, of course). As long as I'm dealing with true tinplate shell parts (say, as opposed to chrome- or nickel-plated journal boxes, domes, handrails, etc.), I've found that the stainless brush makes quick work of removing nearly all traces of rust, and buffs the surface to a primer-ready finish. I can't think of a case where the stainless brush has done any damage to the underlying tinplate metal.

My methodology, anyway ...

Thanks for sharing these step-wise pics of the Hiawatha ... looking forward to the next steps.

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

The rest of the train set came in...I have to go pick it up now.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

TJ, I agree with you on the wire brushes. The reason I like Scotchbrite is mainly the cost. I can get about 30+ pads out of one sheet of Scotchbrite for about $3. The cars came today. I'll post pictures as soon as I finish dinner.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My Dremel tool is in constant use with the little wire wheel here. I buy them in quantity!


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

The rest of the cars came today. Now I have the complete set. 

Aren't they a beaut!!










Not even bent at all... much


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Brings new meaning to the term "train wreck"!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

SkyArcher said:


> TJ, I agree with you on the wire brushes. The reason I like Scotchbrite is mainly the cost. I can get about 30+ pads out of one sheet of Scotchbrite for about $3. The cars came today. I'll post pictures as soon as I finish dinner.


Sky,

I've been pissing away more $$$ than I care to count on my endless stash of Dremel brushes. They work, but they are not cheap, as you rightly say.

So ...

How do you mount your little cut Scotchbrite pads to your Dremel spindle? Can you post a pic and/or a description when you have some time? I'd love to see.

And, as far as the condition of the cars is concerned, I'm reminded of my wife's words when she came home looking a little pale after a drive to the grocery store ... "Hi, honey ... it's just a small scratch ..."

Dohh!

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is a picture of the Scotchbrite wheel that I use. I don't think that the mandrel is Dremel. Maybe RotoZip










The other side after I just used it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll have to give Scotch Brite a try on my Dremel, not a bad suggestion.

As for Dremel wire wheels, try this alternative: http://www.widgetsupply.com/mm5/mer...arch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high=


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

First coat of paint. Powder coated. The trim colors will likely be painted on. I'm really happy with the yellow color. It took a long time to figure out the color.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sky, Gunrunner,

Great tips!

Sky, unfortunately, that "back side" photo of the pad isn't showing up on my end, but I think I get the idea. It looks like you don't have to be too fussy in pre-cutting the pad to "pure round" when you start, huh?

Gun ... that brush is a lot cheaper. I think I've been paying around $3 for Dremel steel brushes, and $4 for the stainless steel ones. And I go through a LOT of brushes ... ka-ching, ka-ching 

These tips, guys, will certainly help ease the pain in my wallet. Thanks! :thumbsup:

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sky,

The yellow beauty just popped up on my screen. Looks fabulous. The shade of yellow looks just perfect.

Nice work, as usual!

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I like it! 

Now a song to stick in your mind all day!


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

I'll fix the picture tomorrow. The pad will round off as you use it. Thanks on the compliments on the color.

Thanks T-man...your fav song?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I bought a few of the Dremel wheels, but when the costs started adding up, I searched for a cheaper alternative. 

I have to lay in a new supply of Scotch-Brite and try that other trick.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

SkyArcher said:


> I'll fix the picture tomorrow. The pad will round off as you use it. Thanks on the compliments on the color.
> 
> Thanks T-man...your fav song?


I thought it was apppropriate. I have his greatest hits on LP. I found another version that will play.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

here is the picture that got lost.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Mmmmmm!!!! Nanners and trains!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Just got back from PepBoys buying some headlight bulbs for my wife's car. They had imitation Scotch-Brite for $10 for big bundle with 10 6x9 sheets, so I grabbed one of those. Now to find the mandrel that I was going to use to try this trick...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I like the scotch-brite on the dremel trick. Washers on both sides of the mandrel, huh? Simple. Neat.

Thanks, guys!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I got some larger mandrels from the supply place I posted previously for larger cutoff wheels, they seem like just the thing to put the Scotch-Brite on. I'm going to try that on old track, I have several hundred pieces to clean!


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Mmmmmm!!!! Nanners and trains!


What's a nanner?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

As in banana ... "nanner" ... (Go easy on Reck ... three syllable words are a bit difficult down in Kentucy! Or is that just "Tucky"?  )

(I just know I'm gonna get in trouble with that one ...)

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Okay, I get it now. Took me a couple hours and I was thinking that we're all bananas. 

Banana Yellow train engine. For y'alls information, the color is Cub Yellow.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> As in banana ... "nanner" ... (Go easy on Reck ... three syllable words are a bit difficult down in Kentucy! Or is that just "Tucky"?  )
> 
> (I just know I'm gonna get in trouble with that one ...)
> 
> TJ


Just K tuck..........................youuuuu allllllllllll know how them there southerners talk funny.

Nice yellow by the way.:thumbsup:


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is an update. This is as far as I got. Now that the Holidays are here and I'm going to have a house full guests for the next couple weeks, I'm going to have to stop here. Next year, I'll start painting the trim and decaling the engine and cars.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

SkyArcher said:


> Here is an update. This is as far as I got. Now that the Holidays are here and I'm going to have a house full guests for the next couple weeks, I'm going to have to stop here. Next year, I'll start painting the trim and decaling the engine and cars.



It looks great.:thumbsup:

We got to wait till next year?:laugh:

You and TJ ought to open a restoring RR shop.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Excellent start, progress so far looks outstanding!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> You and TJ ought to open a restoring RR shop.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


I'll take in the mail and clean the toilets ... I think Sky should be doing all of the restoration work.

Beautiful stuff ... looking forward to the detailing!

TJ


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> I'll take in the mail and clean the toilets ... I think Sky should be doing all of the restoration work.
> 
> Beautiful stuff ... looking forward to the detailing!
> 
> TJ


Thanks!

A restoration shop? Yikes!!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Truly beautiful work! When I win the lottery, I'm having you and TJ restore a real train for me!


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

That looks great! You just need to pick up the side labels that go on the locomotive and it will be complete


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Truly beautiful work! When I win the lottery, I'm having you and TJ restore a real train for me!


Why win the lottery if you're just going to give it all to me?

I've restored a few cars and motorcycles. The model trains are a piece of cake compared to cars and motorcycles. To do a real train engine would cost you the lottery winnings. If I were you, I'd just take my lottery winnings and buy more track and cars. Maybe that Big Boy that you've always wanted. Trust me, you'll be happier.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Boston&Maine said:


> That looks great! You just need to pick up the side labels that go on the locomotive and it will be complete


Thanks, I have two more colors to squirt on there before I start lettering.

Last night, I ran the Hiawatha around the Christmas tree. It looks and runs great!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

SkyArcher said:


> Last night, I ran the Hiawatha around the Christmas tree. It looks and runs great!


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is a picture.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Fabulous!!!


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Sky, have you checked here for prewar parts?

http://mytrainpartsusa.com/index.php


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Still, thanks for the link. I book marked it.

Anybody happen to know where I can get O scale Hiawatha Decals?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Decal Link

Found it with Google. 12.00 bucksfor the set

Sorry in HO scale


This one goes to an ebay link
11.00

sorry sold

Current

Not a complete set you can fo that on your printer.
Sorry No Luck Today


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks T-Man, I'm looking for decals like the HO set you linked to with the winged silver nose decal.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Copy and print.


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## SkyArcher (Oct 20, 2010)

My printer doesn't print in silver but I'm keeping that idea as plan "B".


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Sky, this site might have the wheels......Lots of prewar L & AF..........
http://www.smittystoytrainparts.com/05-afprewar.html


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I wonder if he ever finished this? Haven't seen him in a few months...


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## doberman (Oct 3, 2011)

SkyArcher said:


> Here is an update. This is as far as I got. Now that the Holidays are here and I'm going to have a house full guests for the next couple weeks, I'm going to have to stop here. Next year, I'll start painting the trim and decaling the engine and cars.


Big Ed did you ever finish these?? If so can we see a pic!!

Thanks Dan


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dan,

That was SkyArcher (not Big Ed) who was working on that Hiawatha set. Nice work, but we haven't seen him 'round these parts in a while.

Sky -- if you're "out there", ping us back with an update!

TJ


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## doberman (Oct 3, 2011)

*Have Hiawatha Set On the Way to Restore*

I just purchased the Hiawatha set with the 3 cars that will need to be restored maybe I'll start a new thread about it when I get it. Hope to see pictures of this set fully restored.

Thanks much!


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