# Lionel Prewar 1015 / 1035 & 1506L ... A Tale of Two Brothers ...



## tjcruiser

As I have (hopefully) put my Lionel prewar 1681 loco addiction to rest, I would like to say that I am moving on to bigger and better locos. Sadly, that's not the case ... rather, I'm being inexplicably drawn to smaller more mysterious prewar Lionel locos. I'm not quite sure where I'm heading, and I'm not quite sure where this thread will lead, but regardless, I'm happy to present:

*Lionel Prewar 1015 / 1035 and 1506L ... A Tale of Two (or Three?) Brothers*

The facts, as I know them, or perhaps, as I have convoluted them:

In 1932/32, Lionel produced a pair of MOTORIZED 0-4-0 locos tagged 1015 and 1035. As far as I have determined, there's very little difference between these. Perhaps (???) one was issued under Lionel's cheaper "Winner Lines" brand? Perhaps one had red frame trim and one had orange frame trim? I suspect that both were a carry over from Lionel's acquisition of Ives, and that these were really from Ives tooling. Regardless, here I will refer to the 1015 and the 1035 interchangeably. If anyone out there is aware of the specific differences, please chime in and let us know.

Here's a 1035 powered loco ... this one is NOT mine ... just a couple of 'net photos:



















I believe that the 1015 / 1035 was wired for forward-only operation ... no manual reverse switch or e-unit.

Shortly thereafter, in 1933/34, Lionel (or Winner?) produced a very similar looking loco but with a CLOCKWORK (windup) motor, here tagged the 1506L. (The "L" designation was for "light" ... the loco had a battery compartment that powered a headlamp. I believe there was also a 1506 without the "L" designation that was part of the Mickey Mouse set.)

Here's a 1506L clockwork (windup) loco ... this one is also NOT mine ... just a couple of 'net photos:



















As shown in the underside view, the half-round cutout in the cab frame is where a battery would have been held. There was a little toggle switch (of sorts) accessed through the open-ended cab back that would engage or disengage the battery, and turn the headlamp on or off. Also note the bell towards the front of the loco. I believe this was rung by a wheel-activated mechanical device (clapper) as the loco went down the track.

At first glance, the shells on these two "brother" locos (powered 1015/1035 vs. windup 1506L) appear identical. From the outside of the shell/cab, they essentially are. However, to accomodate the different motors (powered vs. windup), the red frames of each loco were cut/tooled differently. Also, the 1015/1035 had a closed-back cab, whereas the 1506L had an open-backed cab to accomodate the battery switch, as noted above.

So ... why am I interested / involved?

Well, I happen to have an empty 1015/1035 loco shell along with an empty 1506L shell. Both are in OK condition, but no original motor (powered or windup) for either. Here are the mysterious brothers that sit on my bench:


This pic shows the two brothers side-by-side. Though I'm missing a boiler front on the 1506L, the two otherwise look identical from the top.










However, it's the underside that reveals key differences. The motor-cutout in the frame of the 1506L is much smaller than that in the 1015/1035. The 1506L red frame has NO bracket-plates in the front or back to hold the windup motor. The 1015/1035, on the other hand, has a vertical motor bracket inside the steamchest, and a horizontal one below the cab.










Here's the closed-back of the 1015/1035 vs. the open-backed 1506L (for battery switch):










And, to put the tiny size of these loco-brothers into perspective, I've shown one here alongside one of my 1681's. If you thought the 1681 was small, let me introduce you to the 1015/1035/1506L!










Now, what do I have planned? I'm really not sure. I wish I could wave a magic wand and whisk up an original 1015/1035 powered motor, or maybe a 1506 windup motor. No such magical luck. However, I do have another Lionel Jr. motor (in parts) ... the same motor type you've seen used in my 1681, 1688, and 258 locos. The Lionel Jr. was NOT originally mated to the 1015/1035 ... it's motor casing is too long and tall in the back. Judging from the mount-tabs on the front of the motor, I also suspect that the Lionel Jr motor was wider cheek-to-cheek than the original 1015/1035 motor.










However, where would we all be without a little Frankenbashing?!? I am toying with the idea of cutting down my extra Lionel Jr motor to get it to fit inside my 1015/1035 loco shell. I think most of the surgery would be contained to the back/top of the motor sideplates. I may have to fiddle with the mount brackets that are integral with the loco shell frame. Before I decide anything, though, I think I'll make some "dummy" cardboard templates of the Lionel Jr motor, and then cut/fiddle with those to see how much I would have to hack away to create a happy ending for this little tale of two brothers ...

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it ... for now, at least!

(If any of you have any historical / technical details on the 1015 / 1035 / 1506L, please chime in. Thanks!)

TJ


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## Big Ed

For now TJ I can't even read the thread thoroughly as I got to go.

I just wanted to let you know.

I will dissect it more tomorrow. 
If I can.

I might not be able to till the weekend though.

Work, work, work ! :laugh:


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## tjcruiser

My threads/posts always make for good sleepy bedtime reading, Ed!

TJ


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## jreid

I am fairly new here, but your threads might be taxing on the wallet, I have a hankering for a 259E now, or something similar, I love that tinplate look.


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## T-Man

Neat little shell. If you have a problem with head clearance try reversing the motor. That's my first impression. Good Luck!


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## tjcruiser

*Down at the Chop Shop ...*

I've pushed ahead a bit with trying to fit (cram?) one of my Lionel Jr motors into my 1035 loco shell. The 1035 never had a Lionel Jr motor ... its motor was smaller, so I'm attempting a "shoehornectormy", so to speak!

In considering surgical options, there's two fundamental schools of thought:

1. Chop the loco shell as needed to accomodate the motor, or ...

2. Chop the motor as needed to accomoate the loco shell.

I've chosen the second option here, with the intent of leaving the 1035 loco shell as original (unmodified) as possible.

So ...

From the post above, this is where I started ... original 1035 loco shell; oversized Lionel Jr motor:










Next, I made a cardboard template of the motor (or, more precisely, the motor sideplate), and trimmed that as needed to fit with some sort of a bracket mount means into the loco shell. What we see below is the resulting chopped cardboard template placed on top of the yet-unaltered motor. The dark areas are what I need to chop away. 











In thinking about where, specifically, to chop the motor, I had to consider motor-to-shell mount options. I chose the chop-method shown for the following reasons:

a. It leaves intact the three principal rivetted cross-rods that lock the left/right motor sideplates together. The chopped motor will still be strong.

b. I can still use the tabs at the front to lock the motor into the shell's steamchest.

c. I can mount (screw) the back of the motor to the existing loco shell's rear mount bracket through and via the rear motor cross-rod.

d. I left a "bulge" at the top/front of the motor in way of where a headlamp socket might be mounted, in case I want to add a light to the loco.











I did have to trim the original mount-tabs on the front of the motor down in size a bit, such that they would fit into the 1035 steam chest area.


And here's how the chopped motor now fits into the shell. (This is a test fit, only ... the wheels are loose, the motor needs rewiring, etc.) The loco shell is unmodified.










So far, so good ...

TJ


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## servoguy

TJ, I don't want to sound critical, but it appears that the motor should go up inside the shell about another quarter of an inch. I don't know if that is possible or not. This is based on the pictures of the original loco.
BB


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## jreid

The old square peg in a round hole bit, got to give you points for ingenuity. I agreee it would look nice up inside the shell more, but I also like the idea of not messing with the shell. Some day a better answer might come along and the unchanged shell will be there.


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## tjcruiser

I have to say that I agree with you guys. After the test fit, I'm wondering if I can squeeze the motor up a bit, too.

Thinking is in the works ... stay tuned ...

TJ


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## T-Man

You may be able to make an insert between the frame and boiler.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

My problem is not clearance between the top of the motor and the underside of the boiler shell ... I'm tight, but generally OK there.

The problem I have is the vertical location of the wheel axles with respect to the steam chest and the drive rod linkage. In my first-fit attempt, the wheels are too low with respect to the steam chest. The drive rod would sit (on average) at a funny down angle.

So ...


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## tjcruiser

*Back To the Chopping Block ...*

Well, you guys were right ... My first test-fit of the motor had the loco shell and steam chest sitting too high with respect to the drive wheels. So, more chop-shop action needed ...

I cut down the motor assembly AGAIN, per the red lines shown here. This allows me to push the motor about 1/4" further up into the shell. Note, however, that I had to cut off the mount tabs on the front of the motor  ...











This is how the motor and wheels now look (second attempt, still test fit). Much more pleasing, I think. *What do you guys think? Better?*










I cut down the back "shelf" of the motor as much as possible ... right to the rear motor cross-rod. I even whacked into that a bit, filing off its top to a flat surface. This cross-rod will screw into the existing (and unmodified) mount bracket on the rear of the loco's frame. No problem with that ...










However, to drive the motor further up into the shell, I had to cut away the mount tabs on the front of the motor. As such, I currently have no way to secure the front of the motor securely to the "red vertical mount bracket" that's tucked between the loco's steam chest...










I'm sure I can improvise some sort of a fix. I'll have to fabricate and fasten on (screw on?) some new tabs to the motor that are positioned in the proper place to mate with the slots that are in the mount bracket on the loco frame.

However, I'm facing one other annoying issue. On my beloved 1681 locos, and on this 1035 loco, Lionel's design team screwed up. Blatantly. As we know, most Lionel motors have the motor assembly offset away from centerline to account for the fact that the drive wheels on one side have geared backs, and the drive wheels on the other do not. Since the wheels much be centered on the loco and the track, the one-side-gearing must push the motor assembly closer to the non-geared wheelset. In the case of 1681's and this 1035, the rear mount bracket and screwhole is offset to provide this skewed bias. However, Lionel screwed up in the front ... the "red vertical mount bracket" that's positioned inside the steam chest (or more specifically, the mount SLOTS on this bracket) has NO offset bias. As such, any motor on a 1681 (or presumably a 1035) sits a bit skewed in the loco ... biased to one side in the rear (as it should be), but without bias in the front. Accordingly, the front geared drive wheel sits "outboard" a bit too much, and it will likely rub awfully close (or too close) to the drive rod that's trying to squeek past the wheel on its way to the steamchest slot. Not good.

So, in my effort to create a new forward mount tabs on the motor being mated to this 1035 loco, I'm hoping I can (finally) add in that front-mount offset bias, and get the front wheels back to being properly centered on the loco's centerline.

That's the goal, anyway. Back to my head-scratching ...

TJ


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## Artieiii

That is SWEEET! Choo Choo will be jealous!
-Art


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## servoguy

TJ,
You should be able to make a U shaped bracket to fit between the motor side plates and fasten it in place with some 2-56 or 4-40 screws. You can bend the bracket to provide the necessary offset. In fact, it may be that the offset on the non-gear side will be about right and you will only need to bend the bracket on the gear side. You may need to notch the motor side place on the gear side to accomplish this. A proper notch on the gear side would keep the U shaped bracket from rotating about the screws. 
BB


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## servoguy

TJ,
Another thought: Cut off the motor side plates to clear the steam chest. Make to brackets, one for each side that have the tab to go into the steam chest slots. Mount one tab on the outside of the side plate on the gear side, and the other on the inside of the non-geared side. This should offset the motor about the right amount to get it near center.
BB


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## jreid

That looks much better, I am now envious of the Locomotive, a real charmer


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## tjcruiser

Bruce,

FYI, the sideplate-to-sideplate width of this Lionel Jr motor is a bit wider (by about 3/32") than the original electric motor for the 1035 loco. I can deduce that via the two slots that are in the front mount bracket of the loco frame.

That said, I'm fiddling with ideas on bracket options, generally along your suggestions. One alternative I'm considering, though, is for me to make new "tabs" via bent strong wire (somewhat similar to a paper clip), with the other end of the wire drilled and pressed through the motor sideplates.

A solution is possible, for sure ... I just need to find the easiest/best option and material.

I'll keep you guys posted. Might have to wait a few days, though ... I've gotta go dodge Irene!

J -- These little little locos keep growing on us, huh?!?

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Could you solder or braze the new tabs on?


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## jreid

Or could one drill and tap for a removable tab. One that slides in place once the motor is inside the shell?


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## T-Man

To stir the think tank, you can cut the front more and make new tabs. Either they fit directly or use an adapter. Another option is to buy some motor posts that have the tapped screw holes. Place ththem between the frames and regain some motor support. Maybe place a screw to it from the front somehow.

Look good so far.


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## servoguy

It would be difficult to solder the tabs in place as the motor side plates are steel. Brazing would require heating the side plates enough that a complete disassembly of the motor would be required. TIG welding could be used as it limits the heat. IMHO, bolting the tabs in place would be easiest and would allow some adjustment.
BB


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## tjcruiser

Good ideas, guys. Here's what I'm toying with. Simple ... just four small holes drilled in the motor sideplates. Looking for a strong (stainless) wire that can be crimped tightly ...










Maybe not, though ... I'll give this more thought next week. Gotta go dodge Irene.

TJ


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## servoguy

TJ,
I am in central Florida. We sent Irene up your way so you would have some understanding of what we deal with. 
BB


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## gunrunnerjohn

servoguy said:


> It would be difficult to solder the tabs in place as the motor side plates are steel. Brazing would require heating the side plates enough that a complete disassembly of the motor would be required. TIG welding could be used as it limits the heat. IMHO, bolting the tabs in place would be easiest and would allow some adjustment.
> BB


Soldering works fine on steel, I've done it many times. You'd have to remove any bluing, but as long as you have bare metal, it would be solid.


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## Big Ed

Darn TJ... I need a day to sit down and read this whole thread.
The longer I let it sit the longer it will get.
Your thread is like reading a novel.:laugh:

Maybe tomorrow I will get a chance to read it before the power goes off.

I just wanted to let you know before I log off. I am not ignoring it.

Been up since 2:30 am and am getting sleepy.hwell:


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## tjcruiser

No worries, Ed. I tend to babble on way too much, anyway. Sometimes I write these detailed post simply so that I can organize my own thinking and get things straight in my head. And we all know how mixed up the circuits in TJ's head can be!

Get some rest. Stay safe. Keep Irene at bay.

TJ


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## tjcruiser

John,

Re: soldering ... would it have to be steel to steel, or would brass to steel work?

TJ


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## servoguy

Brass to steel should work. You have copper to steel inside the 022 switches when the wires are soldered to the rails.


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## tjcruiser

Ahh ... that's right ... I'll try my skill on a test piece when I get back.

Cheers, guys.

TJ


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## Big Ed

I forgot to look at this today.hwell:

I just read the whole thing....but right now the only thing I can add is. 
Why?

I will continue watching.:thumbsup:


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## NIMT

Tj,
When you all get out of the duck and cover mode. Why not use T-man's favorite method of small steel repair, Epoxy the tabs to the frame? Saves the chance of anything going wrong with having to add a lot of heat to the motor in order to solder to the frame.
Mig or tig welding would be the best but without the equipment or knowledge it would be rather difficult, I have a tig and a mig welder and 2 sets of brazing torches and have tried projects like this and it can be extremely difficult. Some projects have met with success and some with failure!
Yes you can solder brass to steel, Acid core flux works the best for this, I use the solder and flux for copper pipes to get these kind of jobs done.
Per tin the steel and the brass then heat to mate.


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## servoguy

TJ,
Did you survive the hurricane?


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## tjcruiser

Just back online now ... Monday, 3 PM. All generally OK. Lost power / phone for 1.5 days, but back up and running. No siginficant damage to property/yard. Thankful to have come through OK; hopeful for all others more adversely affected.

TJ


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## T-Man

Welcome Back!

I took the liberty of doing a mock up. The piece is large but gets the point across. All you have to do is bolt it to the frame. I used tin snips and a vise grip.



















The bend is wide but the metal is thick and you can give up length to adjust the angle. The metal piece is a piece a flat stock found at Home Depot about 2 by 6 with holes. It is a flat brace. Stiff enought to give the support needed.


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## tjcruiser

*The Bracket Racket ...*

Hi guys,

I really appreciate your insight via posts above on ways to mount the motor to the frame. The brainstorming helped me make some decisions. In the end, I've gone with new left and right bolt-on "tab plates" fastened to the front of the motor. When the motor is mounted to the loco, these tabs engage into the exisitng (original) slots in the red loco frame.

(T-Man ... I proceeded down this road before seeing your post directly above. Same concept, but I didn't need the signifanct off-centerline offset. Details explained below ...)

I mentioned above the need to correct Lionel's original design flaw, by skewing the front of the motor further off of centerline to compensate for the geared wheels on one side. After mulling this over, I was able to bend the "red vertical mount bracket" on the motor frame slightly towards the right side of the loco's centerline. This biased offset got me about half-way to my desired position.

Next, I fabricated a pair of metal "tab plates" that get mounted on the left and right inside faces of the motor sideplates. Following the *T-Man "Prime Directive"* that one should never throw anything away D), I rumaged through my trash eek to dig out the steel pieces that I had previously cut away from the top-back corner of the motor's sideplates. It hit me that these metal pieces are exactly the right thickness to mate with the mount slots in the red loco frame. Further, the previously cut-away pieces already had a rectangular slot that once held a motor crossbar. With these scrap metal pieces in hand, I went to work ...










I machined down the scrap metal pieces into a new "tab plate" shape. The rectangular slot in each would prove to be helpful, as it provides a means for fine-tune vertical position adjustment once each tab plate was screwed to the motor sideplates. I drilled one small hole on each of the motor sideplates, and then used metric M3 screws to mount the new tab plates on the inside faces. Importantly, I shimmed the right tab plate slightly away from the motor sideplate using a washer as a spacer. This additional "bias" provides the second-half of the intended motor off-centerline shift. In the end, a simple implemented fix.

Here you can see the new tab plates fastened to the inside of the front of the motor:










I had to drill and tap one new hole into the existing red mount bracket on the back of the loco frame. I used a 4-36 tap, which matched the existing tapped hole in the round crossbar on the back of the motor. So, to mount the motor to the loco, slide the two new tabs into their slots, and simply fasten one screw in the back. Easy.

Here's the underside view with the motor fastened to the loco. (The motor currently has it's pickup plate removed. I still have to rewire the motor, and more permanently mount the wheels.) ...










This is the motor now mounted, showing how the loco will look:










And another view. Neat looking little loco, I think!










What do you guys think?

I suspect this loco shell will soon get a strip/repaint job. But before I go down that road, I had to convince myself that I could kludge some way to power the shell with one of my Lionel Jr motors. Happily, that's nearly done, and I can proceed with more restoration work here.

Cheers,

TJ


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## jreid

That turned out nicely, real good


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## T-Man

Lookin Good!

I offset the tabs to try to align it with the frame. 

Those shells are interesting I just haven't seen many around.


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## servoguy

Looking good, TJ


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> I offset the tabs to try to align it with the frame.


Thanks for the nice comments, guys ... much appreciated.

I'm not sure if I said it earlier, but I should clarify one point ...

The existing tab slots that are in the "red vertical mount bracket" of the loco frame are narrower center-to-center than the original tabs in any Lionel Jr motor. As such, this leads me to believe that the motor that was original to a 1035 loco (which was NOT a Lionel Jr motor) must have had a narrower width (sideplate to sideplate) than a Lionel Jr motor.

Because of this, I was able to mount my new "tab plates" on the inside faces of the Lionel Jr motor sideplates, and still get them to fit in the original mount slots. As explained earlier, I biased the tabs to the side a bit to shift the motor off centerline, compensating for the geared wheel width.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*Adding a light ...*

I'm not sure if the original 1015/1035 locos were wired with a headlamp. I do know that the windup 1506L loco did had a headlamp that was powered via an onboard battery. Regardless, I thought I might as well add a headlamp to my 1035 loco with its Frankenbashed Lionel Jr motor ...

Lionel Jr motors (like those in a 1681) have their light socket mounted on a rectangular-plate crossbar pressed into the top/front of the motor sideplates. You can see the corresponding rectangular holes in the remaining sideplates of my chopped-down motor. I don't have an extra crossbar/light assembly, though in the past, I've bought them from Jeff Kane for $4 ... he only has a very limited supply of these.

Since I've already 'bashed my motor, I don't need to be "purist" in fabricating a light source. Accordingly, I stopped by Radio Shack this morning and picked up a pack of these little standard light sockets ... around $2.80 for a box of four, I think:










They come with a side-mount arm, which is easily fastened (with a screw) to one of the motor sideplates:










I'm using a thick fiber washer to space the socket arm a bit away from the motor sideplate, such that the socket itself is positioned close to the loco's true centerline.

Unlike the original Lionel Jr light socket, this one from Radio Shack has the "can" insulated (electrically) from the side-mount arm. Accordingly, the socket has two solder-leads sticking out of it, and I'll have to run two wires ... one for the "hot" central lead, and one to ground the can to the motor frame. Easy enough.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*Delving In Deeper ...*

Hi guys,

Project update ...

I've rewired the motor, including power leads to the new lamp socket. Motor runs smoothly, though I have not yet cleaned, painted, and installed the wheels.

I've decided to go for a full strip/repaint of the loco shell. I disassembled the shell and gave the components an Easy Off Oven Cleaner strip bath today. Here's how the loco looks after the bath and a rinse/dry ... a bit grungy, but it's all simply surface muck. It'll clean up nicely with a Dremel brushdown ...










Here's a pic showing the loco shell parts disassembled. The boiler front and the boiler shell have been cleaned with a Dremel stainless steel brush. The cab and frame have not yet been cleaned ... I ran out of Dremel brushes ... dohhh! 










Cheers,

TJ


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## NIMT

Tj,
Well after you get done with the paint are you going to put the e unit, sound, smoke generator, and fire box lighting in it too???:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Excellent bashing job by the way!:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've been using the ScotchBrite on a mandrel for cleaning jobs, a lot cheaper than the brushes, and very effective.  I can also easily clean up the cast-off material, not like the needle wires the brushes throw off!


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## tjcruiser

Sean -- I'd love to add all of the "bells and whistles", but there's no room in this little guy. Thanks for the "atta boy" ... much appreciated.

John -- someone here (you?) turned me on to home-made Scotchbrite Dremel pads. I use them for "tight inside corner" work. Their flexibility is great for poking into tiny crevices. But for "outside surface" work, I really love the stainless brush. Yes, they're expensive (around $3.50 each). And yes, they throw endless needles of death everywhere ... I must have had 1000 of those things poke me in my feet by now. But for easy, brute-force cleaning power, nothing beats a stainless brush on these tinplate components. They'll take off surface oxidation, rust spider veins, and the like rather easily.

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I agree in some situations they're a bit faster, but I reserve them for special cases, I use a lot more of the Scotchbrite. I was running a little short, so I placed an order. :laugh:


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## jreid

personally, I liked the Black and red color scheme, I am sure that whatever happens it will be uber cool.

Very interesting idea on the scotchbrites cut down for the dremel, I am assuming the same mandrel that is for polishing mits or is it the cut off wheel mandrel?
I did the ovencleaner bit on an old Marx CV today, the thing looked like someone had dipped it in paint at one time. It took four doses of the oven cleaner but ir did end up being perfectly clean. I think the paint was so thick that it took more. I have another project and the oven cleaner should work fine, thanks for the tip, I always used to boil things in detergent which works as well, but uses more energy and heats the house up..


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## T-Man

TJ, you need to start using a magnet. I have a 6 inch one that sweeps the floor. I use a poly bag over it. When done, I invert the bag to clean the magnet off. It also cleans up the grinding I do. 


BTW Nice job! Magic Fingers.


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Sean -- I'd love to add all of the "bells and whistles", but there's no room in this little guy. Thanks for the "atta boy" ... much appreciated.
> 
> John -- someone here (you?) turned me on to home-made Scotchbrite Dremel pads. I use them for "tight inside corner" work. Their flexibility is great for poking into tiny crevices. But for "outside surface" work, I really love the stainless brush. Yes, they're expensive (around $3.50 each). And yes, they throw endless needles of death everywhere ... I must have had 1000 of those things poke me in my feet by now. But for easy, brute-force cleaning power, nothing beats a stainless brush on these tinplate components. They'll take off surface oxidation, rust spider veins, and the like rather easily.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ


Check out e bay for the stainless brushes something like these, $19.57 free ship, but they are 12 brass and 12 stainless.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-PCS-WIRE-BRUSH-SET-CUP-WHEEL-BRASS-STAINLESS-BRUSHES-/350443029075?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5198084253

Item #350443029075, I don't think the link is working. Or just search stainless wire brushes.

I picked up a box of 36 stainless brushes of different circumferences for $19.99 with the shipping.
If you ask me they are the same thing you get for $3.50 a brush in Sears.
They wear the same way as the $3.50 ones.

The link I provided has brass with the stainless. 
I have not used brass yet, my lot was all stainless and were from an estate sale. You probably won't find a deal like that. If you use the brass let me know how they work.

Look around, shop, wait for a deal.


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## servoguy

The brass will probably ignore the magnet. The stainless may also be non-magnetic, depending on the type of stainless. 

I do my wire brushing inside a box with the shaft nearly vertical to keep the broken wires inside the box. This keeps the wires out of my feet and clothes.


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## T-Man

Because of the non magnetc properties, I stick with steel.


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## Big Ed

servoguy said:


> The brass will probably ignore the magnet. The stainless may also be non-magnetic, depending on the type of stainless.
> 
> I do my wire brushing inside a box with the shaft nearly vertical to keep the broken wires inside the box. This keeps the wires out of my feet and clothes.





T-Man said:


> Because of the non magnetc properties, I stick with steel.



Still a good price compared to $3.50 a wheel.
They appear to be the same thing I buy in Sears.
They wear down the same too, I got tired of spending $3.50 a wire wheel.

The brass? I never used yet as the lot I got were all stainless.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man -- clever idea to use the bag over the big magnet. Easy throw-away cleanup. I don't have a big magnet, but I should get one. I have "needles" all over my basement workshop. Ouch. I really need to get out the Shop Vac and do a thorough cleaning.

John Reid -- same colors planned for the loco ... black with red frame. Yes, I use a standard Dremel mandrel for the home-made Scotchbrite pads. Except, I place a small washer either side of the pad (mandrel end, screw end) to increase the "grab area" on teh pad for extra holding power.

Gun John -- nice power purchase on the pads! I Amazon-bought a box of grey/fine Scotchbrite pads the other day, but I was a bit disappointed ... they are NOT as fine-grit as I was hoping for. I had a grey pad from somewhere that I used again and again to "rub down" primer coats prior to topcoat paint. The pad did a nice job of smoothing the primer without scratching through to the underlying metal. When I ordered the new box, I thought I was getting the same fine grit pads. But, apparently not. Any idea where one finds extra-fine Scotchbrite type pads? (This is what I bought, but it's not as fine as I had hoped ...)

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Automotive...6I7G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315152127&sr=8-1

Ed -- thanks for the leads on cheaper / bulk stainless brushes. I should find the time to follow through with that. As it is, I keep buying 2 or 3 dremel ones at a time. No big drain on the wallet for any one purchase, but in the end, it adds up to a lot. I must have gone through 70 or 80 brushes, I'd guess.

All -- I will tout agan how well the stainless brushes work on tinplate. Grime and rust don't stand a chance. The (mild) steel brushes only have a small fraction of the cleaning power, and I'd guess that brass would be even worse ... with quick brush degradation.

Thanks, guys!

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Getting CLEAN clean ...*

When I was young, my Mother drilled into my head: "If you're going to get something clean, then get it CLEAN clean ..."

Well, this one is for Mom ... my little 1035 loco shell, all CLEANED up ...










TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

jreid said:


> Very interesting idea on the scotchbrites cut down for the dremel, I am assuming the same mandrel that is for polishing mits or is it the cut off wheel mandrel?


I use the mandrels for cutting wheels, and I also use a set of washers on each side of the pad. I just cut a square about 1.25" square, punch a hole in the middle, and then mount it on the mandrel. I usually nip the corners off the square to start, then just let it beat itself to round. 

I bought half a dozen mandrels for us with the Scotchbrite polishing, I normally keep two or three ready with each of the Dremel tools.


----------



## tjcruiser

I squeezed in priming work today ... the weather was windy and a bit humid, so I didn't think topcoat painting was in order.

Krylon Gray Primer (for the parts that will be black), and Krylon Rudy Brown Primer (for the frame that will be red). I primed the boiler shell and the cab separately, and then tabbed them together after the primer dried. I will topcoat paint them black as one subassembly.










Forecast is for rain the next few days, so topcoat is likely on hold for a bit.

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, weather is turning ugly for a few days, time to kick back and run your trains.


----------



## Artieiii

TJ,
Now that's CLEAN!
-Art


----------



## Big Ed

Why not just all gray primer?


----------



## tjcruiser

big ed said:


> Why not just all gray primer?


I could have, for sure.

But I've found that the Rudy Brown primer is an easier base-boat for Red topcoat paint. It's a closer color match, so there's little bleed-through, requiring a thinner topcoat paint buildup.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> I could have, for sure.
> 
> But I've found that the Rudy Brown primer is an easier base-boat for Red topcoat paint. It's a closer color match, so there's little bleed-through, requiring a thinner topcoat paint buildup.
> 
> TJ


That sounds good, but it should not matter.
I would rather use the lighter gray, as you can see better how much your spraying.

But with the way the cans spray now, they shoot too heavy anyway.:thumbsdown:

I do know that for an Alien green florescent color you want to use a white primer.
Keep that in mind when you paint one of your tin trains Alien green.


----------



## tjcruiser

No Alien Green, Ed!

Nice weekend weather for topcoat painting of the little 1035 loco, though. Krylon Gloss Black and Krylon Gloss Banner Red (same as on a few of my 1681's) ...










Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

I know,Gray primer for the Cab and brownish primer for the frame.

Christmas is approaching Green and Red would look good too.:thumbsup:

Looking good, Doc.:thumbsup:


----------



## jreid

Lookin good


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys. Much appreciated!

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Boy that thing is small. Looking forward to the next step. :thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> Looking forward to the next step. :thumbsup:


Unfortunately, the next step is a minor step back. After letting the painted parts dry through the rest of the weekend, I noticed and was not happy with some bubbling/pitting in the paint on the top corners of steamchest component. I lightly sanded the area this morning, and resprayed with the same Krylon black, but the black paint quickly fogged up to a more greyish color as it began to dry. I've had this same thing happen with black in the past. I'm not sure if it's a temperature or humidity issue? I tried yet another topcoat, but the same fogging.

Frustrated, and annoyed that I've made a small, inconspicuous paint blemish now much worse, I tossed the steamchest part back into a tin lasagna pan, an am giving it a strip-down bath of Easy Off.

One step forward ... one step back ...



TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Bummer, but you're at least getting real good at stripping paint.


----------



## Artieiii

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Bummer, but you're at least getting real good at stripping paint.


I had a similar issue with my Ski Train. I painted the shell yellow the the paint would not dry (stayed tacky). I stripped the fresh paint with paint thinner and started over again. The second time I made sure to rinse the paint thinner with lots of soap and water so there was no residual on the shell the dried it with a hair drier. Not sure if it was the paint thinner or if I forgot the shake the can thoroughly. Second time worked out fine.
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

*The Little Engine That Could ...*

Hi guys,

I started this thread telling a tale of two orphaned brothers ... Lionel's prewar 1035 powered and 1506L windup locos. Both mysterious little guys, having left little evidence of their journey down the life's tracks. I tried to piece together a bit of their history. And, more ambitously, I tried to rebuild my 1035 shell (only) into a functional powered loco utilizing a chop-shopped Lionel Jr motor.

Well, I'm happy to report here that my 1035 shell is now proudly the Little Engine That Could. My modified Lionel Jr motor supplies the power to the otherwise unaltered 1035 shell. (I did add one new small tapped mount-hole on the frame's rear bracket.) The shell has been stripped and repainted, along with a new polish and clearcoat to all of the shiny trim parts. (My second-attempt repaint of the steamchest turned out OK.)

Like the original 1035 loco, this "TJ version" is wired for forward-only running. And he's itchin' to go. "I think I can. I think I can. I think I can ..."














































Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

Once again, TJ, you have done a beautiful job. Keep up the good work.


----------



## servoguy

Are you sure there isn't room for an E unit at the back of the motor?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Nice looking locomotive.


----------



## Artieiii

Very nice job. They should have made these. Cute little bugger!
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks for the nice comments, guys ... much appreciated.




servoguy said:


> Are you sure there isn't room for an E unit at the
> back of the motor?


Bruce, there probably is just barely enough room for an e-unit, but there's no slot on top of the boiler shell, of course. There is a vertical slot on the front face of the cab (on the left side). *Are there e-units that have their lever sticking out the rear?*

Another option would be to install a manual fwd/reverse switch, again trying to fit it to the existing cab slot. I have those "disc" style switches on my 1681 locos (the non-E ones). But, again, are there manual switch setups with the lever out the rear? I think the original 259's had something like that, right??? Does anyone have any pics of that sort of a setup?

That said, as far as I know, the original Lionel 1035 was a forward-only loco. (Though I'd be happy to have someone prove me wrong here.)

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man

TJ, it sounds like you are throwing me another stick. Let me dig that bone out of the field.


Ruff, Ruff


ebay engine









Ruff (link)

You need a square hole to mount it.
The picture was buried deep in the Motors of the Rue Morgue Thread.


----------



## lionellines

tjcruiser said:


> Bruce, there probably is just barely enough room for an e-unit, but there's no slot on top of the boiler shell, of course. There is a vertical slot on the front face of the cab (on the left side). *Are there e-units that have their lever sticking out the rear?*


The 2034's e-unit had the lever facing down as there was no slot in the shell.


----------



## T-Man

I got that too, good idea.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Of course, there's rarely a need to manipulate the E-unit lever anyway. FWIW, I've seen them with a bent lever sticking out through the cab, don't remember which locomotive had that.


----------



## servoguy

I was thinking about eliminating the lever altogether. I never use mine. I just leave them in the energized position.


----------



## tjcruiser

You know ... you guys are a real pain in the a**. Here I was thinking I was fully done with this latest loco project, and you all come along planting more seeds of tinkering and creativity in my mind. Can't a guy get some rest around here without you all kicking him back into action ?!? 

So ... after thinking a bit about your ideas above, here's what I'm thinking ...

I'm a little scared to conisider the idea of a standard e-unit on this 0-4-0 loco, especially as it would run on my 027 track and switches. This tinplate stuff has a tendency to bounce around when traversing the switches, and it's all too common for a loco to encounter a momentary short of power, which could inadvertently trip an e-unit reversal. Given that the 0-4-0 has no leading/trailing trucks to complete a ground circuit, the drive wheels themselves can be especially prone to encountering a short while driving across the 027 switches. (I know that Gun'John is twisting my arm to ditch all of the 027 stuff and make the jump to 031, which would likely bypass this problem. He's right, of course. But for now, I'm stuck with the 027.)

So, I think I've ruled out an e-unit in my mind. (Though I like your idea of wiring one permanently "engaged", foregoing the need for a lever.

Instead, I'm drawn to the idea of a manual fwd/reverse switch. My 1681's (without e-units) have a traditional Lionel "disc" style switch like this:

(Photo from Jeff Kane's website ...)









I could try to mount the disc with the axis running side-to-side, and the lever sticking out the slot in the cab wall. In looking at the space available in the loco, though, I think that would be extremely tight, and one would have to unscrew the lever handle to install/remove the motor.

But, that got me thinking further ...

There is a void and space in the aft region of the motor, and one can easily poke a finger up inside the motor just behind the lower pickup plate. So ...

Couldn't I install an off-the-shelf (Radio Shack) DPDT switch that would allow me to manually toggle forward or reverse? I'll have to stop by Radio Shack and see if that have a small DPDT switch that could fit (with the toggle access via the void on the underside of the motor). Assuming they do, can you guys check my logic of wiring? ...










I think that performs the same function as the original "disc" style Lionel manual switches.

What do you guys think of this concept?

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
The DPDT switch should work just fine.

I think the problem with the prewar engines and cars navigating an O-27 switch has to do with the diameter of the flanges. On prewar engines and cars, the flanges are larger than on the postwar stuff. You could use 1121 switches instead of 1122 switches and solve the problem, but you lose the non-derail feature. I found that there are two different O-31 crossings, but they have the same part number. One is prewar, the other post war.
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Sounds good to me, but I still favor a real E-unit. You do know that there are AC compatible electronic E-Units, right?


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

That was a fast response. Thanks! So, a DPDT could work as drawn.

Any recommendation on Amperage size in choosing a DPDT switch for an application like this?

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Sounds good to me, but I still favor a real E-unit. You do know that there are AC compatible electronic E-Units, right?


Yes, but available space is limited here. The way the motor mounts to the loco frame, the the two tabs at the front of the motor act like "pivots" for motor removal. Anything in the back/top of the motor gets swung througn an arc that has to clear the face of the cab front ... and there's very little clearance there.

How big are those electronic boards? And that wouldn't get around the 027 switch shortout problem (premature direction reversal), would it?

TJ


----------



## servoguy

You can use a bridge to convert the AC to DC and drive the E unit using the DC. Put a cap across the DC to slow down the E unit and eliminate false triggering. The cap shouldn't be more than an inch or two in diameter.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Gee, a miniature C&K 6A one would be more than sufficient for this task.

http://www.ck-components.com/7000/toggle,10598,en.html


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I like servoguy's suggestion, I should have thought of that.


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce -- I don't have any bridges on my layout! 
(I understand the rectifier part, but I have no idea what a "cap" does. I'm a very simply-minded tinkerer here ...)


John -- so something in the approx 6A range, right? I'll probably stop in at the local Shack ... I know I'll get ripped off on price ($4 or so), but I only need one, so it's a convenience thing ...

Thanks very much,

TJ

EDIT ... ohh ... CAPacitor! But you must be joking about the 1" diameter, right???????


----------



## servoguy

TJ, a bridge rectifier uses 4 diodes and converts AC in to full wave DC. 

Joking? about the size of the capacitor? Of course I was joking. Otherwise I couldn't use the smiley face. 

You might want to put a small resistor between the bridge and the cap to reduce the voltage a little bit. 50 ohms or so.


----------



## Big Ed

I know I am beginning to sound like a broken record but,

Looking good Tin Man, another excellent job.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


What do you think? 
One of Jeff's circle stick-on L's on the boiler up front would look good?
I don't think they would go on the cab well, because on the rivets.

You need a nice big shelf for all of your creations to rest on, while your not running them.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You need a capacitor in the 220-330uF range at 50 volts. They're not all that large.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks again, guys ... you've given me some great info to mull over. I'm heading out of town for a few days, but will delve into this further upon my return.

Ed -- a "circle L" on this? Hmmm ... I'm not with ya' on that one. I kind of wanted the loco to look as much like it's original version as possible. (Maybe on the _next_ one ...  )

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> TJ, it sounds like you are throwing me another stick. Let me dig that bone out of the field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need a square hole to mount it.


T-Man,

I'm looking at your photo in more detail. You nailed it ... that's the same Lionel "disc" manual switch that I have on my 1681's, but here mounted with the axis running side-to-side. And, it has a long, bent-metal lever (in contrast to the screw-in style lever I showed from Kane's site, above.)

Per my comments further above, I'd think about doing this on my 1035 loco, but I'm not sure I have the room ... especially in way of where the cab slot is located off of the loco centerline ... it's outside (further away from centerline) that the sideplates of the motor. Possible, perhaps, but the lever would have to have a few bends ... like your photo example.

Great reference ... thanks for digging this out and posting that. It's one of those rare Lionel treasures.

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*A REAL Lionel 1035 Motor ...*

Well ... this is either a happy, fortuitous coincidence, or perhaps a taunting opportunity lost ...

After performing some chop-shop surgery to squeeze a Lionel Jr motor into my empty 1035 loco shell, I happened to be surfing ebay today, and what did I find? An auction for an original Lionel (a.k.a. Winner Lines) 1035 powered motor. The auction continues for another couple of days. If the price stays low, I might bid. But regardless, I've "borrowed" the seller's photos of the motor to post here for expanded documentation of the 1035 loco. So ...

As far as I can tell, these are pics of a real motor for the Lionel (or Lionel's "Winner") 1035 loco:





































Some observations:

1. As we expected, the front of the motor mounts to the loco frame via those two "suspended" tabs.

2. To my surprise, it appears that the brush plate holder is actually rivetted to the motor sideplate! I wonder if that "seizing wire" that's passed through the outer ends of each brush can is authentic/original, to hold the brush/spring in place? Remove the wire, and then remove the brush/spring through the open end of the can???

3. The bottom view is rather revealing. Note the extra depth of the inside hubs on the non-geared wheels. This extra depth "balances" the distance off of motor centerline between the geared wheels and the non-geared wheels. As such (and contrary to my comments posted in my earlier posts above), this allows the motor to be positioned on the true centerline of the loco shell. No "biased offset" of the motor is needed. Interesting! (You'll note, too, that the motor sideplate-to-sideplate distance here on this 1035 motor is smaller than that on my Lionel Jr motor.)

4. The pickup shoe setup is interesting ... one appears to be inserted via the open (front) end of the pickup plate, but the other appears to be captive (perhaps) in an enclosed hole in the rear of the pickup plate.

5. As I had suspected (and written above), it appears that the motor is wired for forward-only operation.

Do any of you guys here on the forum have (or have fiddled with) a motor like this?

Ohh ... I'm going to eye this auction, but I am STILL on the hunt for an original Lionel windup motor to drop into my "brother" 1506L shell.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks like it needs a serious dose of the 'ol *TJ TLC treatment*.


----------



## Artieiii

*36 wire brushes for Dremel for $15.97*

I can't remember who uses the dremel wire brushes in this forum (TJ maybe). I stumbled on this link today. 36 Brass wire brushes for the dremel for $15.97.
Thought I would pass the info on.
-Art
http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/SFH3-SMB58


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I think TJ uses the stainless brushes. I've found the brass ones don't have the abrasive qualities of the SS brushes, so when I need a wire brush, I also use the SS ones. I have brass brushes, just don't use them much.


----------



## tjcruiser

Art ... thanks much for the tip, but John's right ... I use stainless steel brushes on my Dremel, and I go through LOTS of them. (Brass wouldn't have the cleaning power that I need with this tinplate stuff.) I'm sure I've p*ssed away more money on them than I should have ... I buy 2 or 3 Dremel-brand ones at a time, at $3.50 a pop. Not cheap. I really need to review posts here on the forum and track down a (non-Dremel) alternative source. I'm pretty sure Big Ed (?) had some great sources, and now that I've dialed-down my to-do list a bit, I should invest the time (to save some money) in following his advice.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

TJ, I know I've posted this before to one of your queries, maybe it'll take this time. 

Wheel Brush - Compare to Dremel 428 - Bulk - Our Price: $1.79

I think if you order a bunch, you even get a cheaper price.

Your tin restorations probably cost twice what they should using those Dremel brand brushes.


----------



## tjcruiser

John,

Many thanks! I'm an OLD DOG, so quite often, it takes a long time for things to get through my thick skull.

I will check out the heavily-discounted brushes ... seems like a great deal.

Much appreciated,

TJ

===

For Search hits:

cheap stainless steel brush
cheap stainless steel brushes
inexpensive stainless steel brush
inexpensive stainless steel brushes


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
You can use a larger fine wheel on a bench grinder. Years ago, I worked in a bicycle shop, and we repainted a lot of bicycles. A wire wheel was what we used to remove the old paint. It should be much faster than the small Dremel wire wheels.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I've used the larger wire wheel in my drill press to clean tubular track and sometimes for stuff like transformer bases that I'm painting. I don't have a really fine wire wheel that I'd use on rolling stock, but that's an interesting idea.


----------



## tjcruiser

In general, I'm not removing paint with the Dremel-mounted stainless brushes. I do that with the Easy Off Oven Cleaner baths. Rather, once the paint has been removed, I used the brushes to remove surface rust/crud from the tinplate metal, and polish them to shiny, clean, vigin metal, prior to prime and repaint.

Now on the outside surface of a boiler shell, perhaps I'd be more efficient working with a bench-grinder-mounted brush. However, so much of what I'm doing with the brush work is on INSIDE surfaces, inside corners, etc., that I need the SMALL SIZE of the Dremel brush to physically get to where I need to get. In face, I often use "worn down" Dremel brushes, simply because they are smaller in diameter, and allow me to reach into a tighter spot/corner.

How would one clean the inside of a steamchest, for example, with a bench grinder brush? It couldn't be done that way.

My two cents, anyway ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Good point on the small space.  OTOH, I can see where for some parts of the task the bench brush option might speed the task.


----------



## servoguy

I understand that there are many places that a large wire wheel could not reach. However, it might be that it could be used on a large portion of the pieces. Anyway, you choose the best way as it is your project.

Keep up the good work.
BB


----------



## tjcruiser

*Breathing a sigh of relief ...*

Well, I bid on the Lionel Winner motor (shown a few posts above) tonight. Even though I've refit my 1035 loco with a chop-shopped Lionel Jr motor, I thought it might be fun to have an original motor for that loco.

Fortunately ...

My $30 bid was outbid by $1 in the last few seconds.

Yes, friends ... there ARE angels out there ...

And with your prayers, my addiction will someday end ...



TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The old snipers got to you on that one.  Gixen is your friend for this kind of auction.


----------



## tjcruiser

*My Very Own Lionel 1506L Windup Loco*

Hi guys,

Past readers here will recall that this thread compares a few similar Lionel / Ives (transition era) prewar locos: the electric-motored 1015 and 1035 (identical except for trim color), and the similar-looking but windup (clockwork) powered 1506L. Earlier in this thread, I showed how I restored a 1035 loco by "squeezing" a Lionel Jr motor into it. Now, I have a new project on my plate. I've just acquired an all-original 1506L, and have taken it apart to see what's inside and how (and if) it works. To my delight, my little ebay find is fully mechanically intact and sound (as far as I can tell). It's missing its windup key, but I've justed ordered a repro one online.

At first fiddle, I was baffled as to how to remove the clockwork motor. No screws. Hmmm. With my 1035 experience at hand, I opted to "go through the back door" ... or top door, actually. I removed the boiler front, which is held on with two metal tabs, and then removed the boiler/cab shell from the frame (4 tabs in back). There, I saw that the motor is keyed into the front of the frame via two small slots, and held in the back of the frame via two tabs on the motor that are bent outward during original assembly. To remove the motor from the frame, I had to unbend those tabs on the back of the motor sideplates. (A bad design, in my opinion.)

The 1035 has an internal headlight. In contrast, the 1506L has a light that's mounted directly on the outside of the boiler front. As such, one of the photos below shows the 1035 on the left with a small boiler front bezel ring, and the 1506L on the right with a larger boiler front bezel ring with a threaded lamp socket directly behind that.

The windup stud is on the right side of the motor, between the wheels. The long lever off the back of the motor engages a finger into one of the lower gears to lock the wheels during the winding process or at idle. I cleaned quite a bit of crude and grime out of the clockwork mechanism (GooGone, etc.), and then gave it a good lube. To my delight, the motor is fully functioning! (I wound it up by rolling it backwards with some downward pressure.) As it chugs along, two little cams on one of the gears trip a plate spring that flexes into the bell ... Ring-Ring .... Ring-Ring ... Ring-Ring ... :thumbsup:

The drive rods on this loco are held in place by two tiny round-head nails (not screws). (In contrast, the drive rods on the Lionel Jr motors were peened in place.)

But ... we have ... A MYSTERY !!!  ...

The headlight operates off of a battery that was mounted in a round recess in the back of the loco frame. There's a lever at the top that one could turn to engage the upper positive-terminal of the battery, presumably turning the light on. There's another spring-plate that pushes against the side of the battery, helping to hold the battery in place, and presumably touching some negative-terminal of the battery. However, this is ON THE SIDE OF THE BATTERY ... not the bottom. The frame recess looks like it would be sized for a C-size battery, but that doesn't mesh with where the negative-terminal contact point is ... on the side. As such, I have no idea what style of battery was used in this loco. Does anyone have any ideas??? As a sidethought, I was thinking that the bottom of the springplate might be broken off (missing), and it was that that touched the negative terminal on a conventional C battery. However, I have this 1506L loco and one other 1506L empty shell, and they BOTH have no bottom "finger" on the springplate. Like I said ... a mystery ...

And so, without further ado, I present my little 1506L ...

TJ



















Here's the 1035 on the left, and the 1506L on the right. Note the larger boiler front bezel ring on the 1506L with it's threaded light socket ...


----------



## servoguy

I remember back in the old days, that some of the C and D cells had a cardboard cover that could be removed. The outside of the batteries was zinc, and the + connector was carbon, which is why they were called "carbon zinc batteries." Newer batteries usually have a steel outer casing which is not easily removed.

You could solder a piece of copper foil to the negative terminal of the battery and wrap it around the battery to make contact. 

If you haven't already, oil the spring very well. Any rust or corrosion on the spring will cause stress risers in the spring and could cause it to break. Even a tiny scratch on the spring will increase the local stresses by a factor of 9 which I am sure would be beyond the endurance of the spring material.

If there is corrosion on the spring, you might consider disassembling the motor and polishing the spring. Polish it lengthwise.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Bruce has the answer, in the olden days you could remove the cardboard from cells. Just run yourself a connection to your "modern" battery. 

You can forget soldering to the battery, it's stainless and you won't be able to solder it.


----------



## servoguy

I have soldered wires to alkaline batteries. They take solder OK. It takes a fair amount of heat.


----------



## servoguy

You can make copper foil with copper wire and a hammer.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I've observed that the wire comes loose much easier when trying to solder to a battery.


----------



## servoguy

I haven't tried a pull test.


----------



## tjcruiser

Interesting comments re: old batteries, guys. I had no idea that you could tear off a cardboard covering (to expose the negative outside) on old batteries. I'll bet that's exactly what they had here on this loco.

Sounds silly, but I don't actually have a modern-day C battery. I think it might fit in the round recess, but I wonder if old-fashioned C's were the same O.D. as modern C's? If not, I can use a padded-out AA, and rig a spring-clip extension to the bottom neg terminal.

Good thinking, guys.

Bruce, I did bathe the spring in oil for quite a while. It appears to be in reasonably good shape, with minimal (if any) oxidation. Lucky me! (Good think, too ... I'd be much to scared to attempt to remove the spring ...)

Thanks, guys!

TJ


----------



## servoguy

Any scratches showing on it? If so, you might want to polish them out. I see some marks on the top of the spring.


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

As I was cleaning the motor with GooGone and a Scotchbrite, I rubbed off a bit of the "gun blue" from the top of the spring ... that's what you're seeing, I think. I will re-blue that before everything gets put back together.

Do you have any experience pulling apart a windup motor? I have none, so the thought of pulling that spring out is a bit scary to me ...

TJ


----------



## servoguy

I have never pulled one apart. You can probably get some idea of the tension on the spring by seeing how much it will move on the pin that holds the end of it.

Unless you plan to use the loco a lot, disassembly is probably not a good idea. 

Microscopic scratches can be a problem, so examine the spring with an eye loupe.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> Do you have any experience pulling apart a windup motor? I have none, so the thought of pulling that spring out is a bit scary to me ...


It's not the pulling apart that you have to worry about, it's finding the parts after the spring unwinds and launches them all over the room! :laugh:


----------



## servoguy

John, sounds like the voice of experience


----------



## Ed2023

On the battery, do a search for "sub C" size battery. I vaguely remember as a kid in the late 40s and early 50s we had a flashlight using B size batteries that were no longer available. A lot of stuff was discontinued during WW2 by law for the war effort. I have a battery powered drill from the '70s and two dust busters for which batteries were smaller than C and much larger than AA, just the size a B cell would be. I found some nicad "sub C" at Radio Shack and rebuilt all three in the late 80s and I am still using them. I see that RS no longer carries that size, but a search shows a number of sites selling "sub C" rechargeable batteries and a quick look shows there may be different dimensions. You would need to jury rig a charger to make it work.

Your restoration efforts are fantastic, jobs well done. Ed G.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I have taken a few spring driven things a part, never a train. However, in a couple of cases, it was more like an explosion than a disassembly! :laugh:


----------



## Artieiii

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I have taken a few spring driven things a part, never a train. However, in a couple of cases, it was more like an explosion than a disassembly! :laugh:


Thats a good description. I took apart a chain saw to replace the pull cord and when the spring came out it "exploded" as well. Was able to get it back together but it took several hours of greasy hands to figure out the "trick" to doing it.
-Art


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, the chainsaw is one of those explosions. I was also able to get it back together, but I did have to hunt down one little part that took a longer flight than the rest.


----------



## tjcruiser

Ed G,

Thanks for the sub-C / B battery size info. Good to know. I still need to grab a standard C and see if its diameter fits the opening. I'm out of town for several days, so it will have to wait.

Thanks for the nice comment re: my restoration work ... I enjoy the challenge!

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Original Lionel / Winner 1035 Loco Motor*

I got lucky on ebay this past weekend. I spotted and won (for $18) an original Lionel / Winner 1035 loco motor in good running condition. First time I've ever held one of these in my hands. Tiny little thing. Some interesting (but frustrating) features:

The brush holder is rivetted to the motor frame ... no easy way to remove it or access the armature face.  I think wire holds the brush/spring in place in each brush can.

In seeing prior pics of these on ebay, I had always wondered why one of the pickup shoes looked "squished in". Turns out, there's only one pickup shoe, and its fully integral with the copper spring plate that the power lead is soldered to. See my diagram below for a cross-section explanation.

The drive rods were attached to the wheels with little friction-fit round-head nail studs. No screws. No rivets. Makes working on the wheels much easier, I think.

I'm not quite sure what I'll do with this motor. It's made to fit a 1035 loco, like the one I recently restored. But I had popped a modified Lionel Jr motor in that, and enjoyed the challenge. I don't know if I'll swap the motor around ... hmmm ...

Instead, I make ebay hunt for another 1035 shell. After all, it's ALWAYS train hunting season!

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

It's gonna' have problems with switches!


----------



## tjcruiser

True. I think these entry-level (inexpensive) Winner Line trains (from Lionel) were normally sold and run on simple oval tracks ... just a loop, no switches.

TJ


----------



## servoguy

It should work OK with the metal Marx switches and the Lionel 1121s.


----------



## servoguy

It will work best with the Marx metal switches as the single pickup will not have to traverse any gaps.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Source for Small Diameter Brush Spring ???*

Well, I delved into the motor a bit more last night. Started giving it a good clean. To my surprise/dismay, I discovered a minor problem. While I did have the motor running OK with test leads on the bench, as I started cleaning it, I discovered that one of the "brush cans" was running with just a spring touching the armature face ... no actual brush. M.I.A. The other "can" has a normal brush and spring, but boy ... these brushes and springs are tiny ... much smaller diameter than those that I have in my 1681 locos.

I experimented a bit last night with fabricating a new brush. I took a brand new brush from my Lionel 1681 parts bin and mounted it in the chuck of my drill, with the brush mostly sticking out of the chuck ... about 3/16" or so. The 1681 brushes have a "stepped down" end ... a smaller diameter lip where the spring attaches. Its this smaller diameter zone that's about the right (full) diameter required for this 1035 Lionel/Winner motor. So, with the 1681 brush spinning in the end of my drill, I took a fine flat file and "kissed" the face of the brush, essentially turning down its diameter. I used the existing "stepped down" zone as my target. To my delight, the file / drill process worked well, and I had a now-proper diameter brush pretty quickly. I trimmed it to length (only a tad over 1/8") with a Dremel cutoff wheel.

So ... here's my problem ... 

The original spring (from the can that had the missing brush) is basically toast. It had been over-extended, with a very distorted end. I cut away the bad part, but the remaining "good" length is a bit too short for an ideal fit.

I have extra 1681 loco springs, but these are too large in diameter to fit in the brush cans.

Where can I find suitably sized (small enough diameter) new springs? Is there any special material that I should look for? (Magnetic, non-magnetic, etc.)

T-Man ... any salvage source tips/ideas here?

The required diameter is smaller than your average ball-point pen spring.

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ, Skycraft (www.skycraftparts.com) has a huge selection of springs. You could call them 407-628-5634. If they can't take the time to search for what you want, let me know and I will find time to go check out what they have. They are about 20 minutes from my house. I want to go look for some panel meters, anyway. Give me the wire size, coil diameter, length, and number of turns. I will get you a selection of sizes as parts like this generally go for a nickel or so.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I would think that magnetic or non-magnetic would not be a factor, it's primarily the fit and function. How is the brush secured into the holder? Is it soldered?


----------



## servoguy

The other possibility is McMaster Carr. I think a steel spring should work OK. Make sure it is a little smaller than the brush holder as its diameter will increase when you compress it.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I have a large "spring" drawer that I toss any springs I come across into. If you supply what Bruce asked for, I'll dig through that to see what I have.


----------



## tjcruiser

Wow ... you guys are FABULOUS with the offers / ideas above. The cans/spring are at my office right now ... I'm at home. I'll check spring size on Monday, and get back to you. I really appreciate the offer.

Bruce -- good comment about spring diameter increasing with compression. I hadn't thought of that.

John -- the brush configuration (per original design) is rather crude. There are two brass tubular "cans" mounted rigidly to a brush holder plate. Open ends (holes) on the cans. Pop in the brushes (simple cylinders), pop in springs, and then a seizing wire is passed laterally through two tiny holes on the outer end of the brush can, essentially locking the spring in place. (On one brush can, the seizing wire is actually the power lead going to that brush.) You can see this setup if you look closely at my photos, above.

Thanks, guys ... I'll get back to you on Monday.

Much appreciated!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That sounds like a simple spring could work, I was wondering if it had to have something special to hold it in. I have a spring that's about 1/2" long and .110" diameter. It's a pretty light spring, and that's what I believe you need for brush springs, not too much tension.  I have others that are longer and .145" diameter. They're a bit "beefier", but not all that heavy. See if either of those do the trick for you.

Here's "Spring Central", this is where any spring I run across gets tossed.


----------



## tjcruiser

Looks like an X-ray of the inside of my head! 

These springs in question are (I think, from memory) smaller than 0.1" in diameter. I'll let you kow specific dims ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hard to imagine they're less than .1", the springs in a typical pen are about .165" diameter. Did you need something that much smaller than the pen spring? I do have a stiffer one that's .085" diameter.


----------



## T-Man

The smallest springs fit a scout motor. The plastic housings use very thin brushes. I wil insert a comparative shot here later.

The bagged brushes are for whistles I think.


----------



## servoguy

TJ, I just came home from Skycraft. They have some springs that should work for you. They have two types that are about 3/32 dia and one type that is 5/32 diameter. This is measured with a pocket tape measure. They feel soft enough for this job. The springs are 50 cents apiece, so I didn't buy any pending on information from you about diameter and wire size.

They have a bin of 4-36 x 3/8 machine screws, also. I have already bought my lifetime supply. They want 10 cents a dozen for them. Let me know if you want some. If the springs will work for you, I may be back to Skycraft soon.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Boy, at 10 cents a dozen for 4-36 screws, I'd grab a bunch of them in various lengths! :thumbsup:


----------



## servoguy

John, I already bought my lifetime supply. But the price is very good. I don't know if they will ship them to anyone or not. You could ask.


----------



## servoguy

They only have 3/8" long screws. I have no idea where they would have come from. 4-36 screws have been obsolete since WWII.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Do they have a website?


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

Thanks again ... very thoughtful of you.

First thing Monday morning I'll measure my remaining spring and the I.D. of the brush can.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

www.skycraftparts.com

They have a lot of stuff that is not on the web site. The parts bins are stacked to a height of about 7 feet. I don't know how the short guys deal with it. They have been in business for 37 years. I have been buying stuff from them for more than 25 years. It is a family business. During the time they have been in business, they have always been sorting stuff out and putting it in bins. 

BTW, did you find anything from McMaster Carr?


----------



## tjcruiser

*Brushing Up on Brushes ...*

Hi guys,

I measured the (remaining) brush, spring, and brush cans on my little 1035 motor, per the dialog above. Some interesting conclusions. In short:

YOU GUYS ARE BRILLIANT!!!

1. T-Man -- your suggestion to look at a Scout motor's brushes was genius. I would have never thought of that. Fortunately, I had an unused Scout motor sitting on my desk. I popped out the brushes and springs from that, and they ARE A PERFECT FIT for the Lionel / Winner 1035 motor. Perfect!!!

2. Which gets us to the question of dimensions. Here's what I measured of the _original_ 1035 brush setup with my plastic micrometer ...

Brush diameter approx 0.123"

Brush length approx 0.125" (a simple cylinder, with no end-recess for spring attachment)

Spring diameter approx 0.118"

Spring lenth approx 0.44"

Spring turns over full length, about 14

Brush can I.D. 0.128"

Brush can full length 0.44"

Brush can partial length, up to seizing wire holes (and termination of spring) 0.40"


3. John, you were right ... basic diameter larger than 0.1", per info above. However, still smaller than those on my 1681 Lionel Jr motors.

4. As a bonus, the Scout brushes have a little recessed back end where the spring attaches ... a cleaner fit. The original 1035 brush didn't have that.

5. For now, I'll simply "steal" the brush/spring set out of the Scout motor. It was just collecting dust, anyway. Next time I place an order from Jeff Kane, I'll get another set of brushes/springs for that, so I won't feel so guilty about my organ stealing.

Bruce -- thanks much for the offer to help track down suitable springs. Now that I know a standard Scout set will work in the 1035, I think I'm good to go.

Again ... you guys are the best. I'm glad you're on _my_ team!

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ, You might want to tell Jeff what you have discovered.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Glad you found a solution, sounds like it all worked out.


----------



## T-Man

Just so you know the Scout had large and small. I showed both. I think the small is for engines without reverse gears. TWo tubes are used on the top plate as in the 1060. It is the smallest I coud think of.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys. I will let Jeff know.

T-Man ... I did not know about the two different versions of the black-plastic Scout motor, but in looking at Olsens and Greenbergs, I see now what you're talking about...

One version like on the 1060 has NO built-in reverse unit drums. As such, the brushes and springs are held in place (in lieu of the missing pair of drums) by a pair of tubes that are mounted to the back face of the cover plate. That's what you're talking about.

However ...

The #246 loco Scout motor that I had (and the one where I pulled the brushes/spring that fit the 1035) is a motor WITH the pair of reverse drums. There, each drum has an integral brush can (open inwards), with the brush & spring fitting inside that. *It looks like the tech library (Greenbergs) lists the brush as # 246-245 and the spring as # 246-212.*

Just out of curiosity, can you clarify which is larger diameter ... the set that fits within the reverse drums, or the set that fits in the cover plate tubes (with no reverse drums)???

To confuse Scout things a bit further, the Greenberg book shows _another_ Scout motor for loco 1001. This has the reverse drums, too, but is presumably (???) and older version Scout? Here, the brush is # 1001M-46 and the spring is # 1001M-47. I wonder how these differ from the 246- versions ... again, just out of curiosity ?

(Oh ... as a sidenote, Greenbergs says that the later-generation Scout motor -- like the 246 -- are distinguished by a serrated black plastic bottom.)

Regards,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

I have now cleaned up and serviced my little Lionel/Winner motor that fit locos 1015, 1035, and perhaps others. I added new brushes/springs (borrowed from a postwar Scout, per T-Man's suggestion/dialog, above), done a general degunk and lube, polished some bits, and gave the wheels a fresh coat of red paint. The motor is wired for forward direction, only (as it was originally produced). The single-shoe pickup is not very switch friendly, but boy, the little motor kicks right along on the straight track.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

TJ, Very nice. Should I send you my junk box so you can restore the junk in it?


----------



## T-Man

Off the top of my head the tubes are small and the gears are large but not all of them, some are small. 

Lookin good! :thumbsup:

The 60's had small brushes, the 1060, 1061,1062. The 1664 engine of John's was 50's with large brushes.


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys ... the battle continues!

T-Man ... interestingly, the pinion, mid, and wheel gears on this little motor are the same as on the Lionel Jr 1681 motors. The middle gear is marked AM-70.

The wheels themselves are very similar to those on the Lionel Jr 1681 motors (same diameter, same gearing, same number of spokes). However, the big difference is that the non-geared wheels on the right side of the motor have an extended hub length on the inner side of the wheels. This extra length compensates for the narrow width of the motor itself. Or, put equivalently in other words ...

This Lionel/Winner motor is narrow in design (sideplate-to-sideplate). The non-geared wheels have an inner hub that's equivalent in depth to the gear depth of the geared wheels. As such, the assemble motor is "symmetrical", of sorts, and rides truly centered down the middle rail.

However ...

In contrast, the Lionel Jr motor (1681, etc.) is wider from sideplate-to-sideplate. The non-geared wheels do NOT have an extended-depth inner hub. As such, the assembled motor is "asymmetrical", and rides down the track with the motor positioned off-track-center, biased over to the non-geared wheel side.

You'll note that the bottom fiber contact plate and pickup shoes on the Lionel Jr motor compensate for this asymmetry, with an offset of the shoes back to true centerline / middle rail position.

Sorry for the detail here, guys. For some strange, demented reason, my mixed-up mind finds stuff like this intriguing!

:retard: :retard: :retard:

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks like new, great restoration!


----------



## tjcruiser

*Lionel 1506L Windup Motor*

Up above I showed my cleaned-up electric motor for a Lionel 1015/1035 loco. In contrast, here's my now cleaned-up windup motor for the look-alike "cousin" 1506L loco ... I'm thrilled that the mechanics are in great shape. I added a fresh coat of red paint to the wheels to dress them up a bit.

I hope to do a full strip / repaint of the 1506L shell in the springtime, and them pop this puppy in!

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Ohh! It even has a bell!


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Ohh! It even has a bell!



I don't see how it rings?

Where is the bell clapper TJ?

What year is the engine from...around....mid 30's?

Is that bar on the one side the clapper?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I didn't say it rung, but that sure looks like a bell. 

Maybe it's manually controlled, you take the shell off and whack it.


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I didn't say it rung, but that sure looks like a bell.
> 
> Maybe it's manually controlled, you take the shell off and whack it.



See the one side? Not the spring stop lever side the other side, there is another lever, that might be the clapper. 
It might run off a gear?


----------



## tjcruiser

big ed said:


> It might run off a gear?


BINGO !

Exactly right. Gear-driven automated bell. As one of the small gears spins around, the face of the gear has two little bumps at say 12:00 and 3:00. These bumps each hit a little flat-plate spring, which flexes to ring the bell. Because of the bump stagger on the gear, the sound is a pleasing "Ring ring ..... ring ring ... ring ring ..."

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I figured there had to be a way to ring it.


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> BINGO !
> 
> Exactly right. Gear-driven automated bell. As one of the small gears spins around, the face of the gear has two little bumps at say 12:00 and 3:00. These bumps each hit a little flat-plate spring, which flexes to ring the bell. Because of the bump stagger on the gear, the sound is a pleasing "Ring ring ..... ring ring ... ring ring ..."
> 
> TJ


A telephone goes ring...ring...ring.
I thought maybe ding....ding....ding.
For sure not ding....dong.......ding.

Drum roll..........and what is the year, do you know?


----------



## tjcruiser

Ohh ... I forgot to look in my book. It's early 1930's ... 1933/34, I think, based upon what I wrote in Post 1 of this thread.


----------



## tjcruiser

*Mystery Motor ...*

More of our tale of little Lionel 1015/1035 powered locos ...

In posts 94 and 153 of this thread, we saw example of the powered (electric) motor that Lionel put in its little 1015 and 1035 locos. (Same loco, really, just different trim paint colors.) Single shoe pickup, rivetted brush plate holder, wired for single-direction, only, etc.

Well, I've just picked up a similar-looking eBay motor ... a rusty relic ... or should I say "pre-weathered"?!? At first glance, this looks like the same basic motor. Essentially, it is, except ...

The fiber contact plate on the bottom is tagged "IVES" rather than "WINNER". You may recall that Lionel bought out Ives in the late 1920's. They continued with the Ives name for a bit, then created the "Winner Line" for smaller/cheaper products, then eventually switched over to "Lionel" or "Lionel Jr.". So, with the "Ives" tag, this motor must predate the Winner/Lionel motors and 1015/1035 shown earlier in this thread.

Also, this "new" motor has the same 8-spoke wheels, but there is NO crank pin hole for a drive rod on the rear wheels. Whatever loco this went to, it was running with no drive rods.

So, I'm putting this motor here as a "mystery motor". Clearly, a close cousin or brother to our other 1015/1035 motor, but not quite exactly the same. Hmmm ...

Can anyone shed some light ???

TJ

*UPDATE, 11 NOV 2018 --

Teledoc and I have been delving into the Ives, Lionel (and Winner Lines) transition era. As we now believe, Ives first produced an electric-powered small loco using the basic 1015/1035 shell (before those actually existed). Ives tagged the loco "1815" and used this motor shown here with "The Ives Corp / Irvington, NJ" printed on the collector plate.

Then, during the Ives to Lionel transition (with Lionel's Winner Lines thrown into the mix), Lionel re-issued the loco under the Winner Lines brand name as the 1015 electric-powered loco (black with orange frame) and also the 1035 electric powered loco (black with red frame). In both, they used essentially this same motor, but instead with "The Winner Toy Corp. / New York" printed on the collector plate.

So, we now believe that this motor shown below was for the earlier IVES 1815 loco, as a precursor clone to the later 1015/1035 locos.*


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> More of our tale of little Lionel 1015/1035 powered locos ...
> 
> In posts 94 and 153 of this thread, we saw example of the powered (electric) motor that Lionel put in its little 1015 and 1035 locos. (Same loco, really, just different trim paint colors.) Single shoe pickup, rivetted brush plate holder, wired for single-direction, only, etc.
> 
> Well, I've just picked up a similar-looking eBay motor ... a rusty relic ... or should I say "pre-weathered"?!? At first glance, this looks like the same basic motor. Essentially, it is, except ...
> 
> The fiber contact plate on the bottom is tagged "IVES" rather than



The fiber contact plate on the bottom is tagged "IVES" rather than............ Lionel?

Well now you can rebuild an Ives engine. Maybe retrofit it in the Lionel?

Take it and make a custom inspection car?


----------



## tjcruiser

I hate to admit it, but I my bash the thing for its wheels. I need an 8-spoked set for a 1661 loco (ives/lionel, but different motor) ... repros are $40 for a wheelset ... I paid $8 for this rusty motor ...

Hmmm ...

I'm feeling guilty already ...


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I guess in the 1920's they weren't into the realism of having actual moving rods to the wheels.


----------



## tjcruiser

Or there's some chance this could have been on an electric (not steam) Ives loco.


----------



## tjcruiser

*1506L In the Buff ...*

I'm jumping back in with some more work on my Lionel 1506L ... the little 0-4-0 prewar loco with a windup (clockwork) motor.

I disassembled the and stripped off the old paint with oven cleaner. Following T-Man's tip, I've used the Walmart yellow-label heavy duty cleaner, rather than the Easy Off Heavy Duty cleaner, which I've used in the past. After reading the product labels, they both contain the same chemical (lye). The Walmart version is $3 a can, compared to the Easy Off at $5 a can. And, in fact, I'd have to say that the Walmart cleaner sprays with a nicer foam than the Easy Off. I'm sold. Walmart heavy duty oven cleaner for me. Thanks, T!











After the strip job, I cleaned / buffed all components with a Dremel stainless steel brush.










Here we see all the individual shell components.











You can see the battery terminal / holder in this photo more clearly. I finaly got around to measuring the diameter of the battery "compartment" ... 1.0" diameter, or a hair over 25 mm. Wiki lists a modern C battery is 26.2 mm ... a bit too big for the compartment. That said, the link below lists C's at slightly smaller ... 25.5 mm diameter. The same link lists old B batteries at 20.1 mm diameter, but also quite long (tall).

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/battery_packaging_a_look_at_old_and_new_systems

One other criteria ... the height of the battery on the loco compartment is limited by a flange that sticks out the bottom/rear of the motor. Total available height is about 46 mm, not including additional room for the positive-terminal bump on top of the battery.

So, it's still a bit of a mystery to me as to what battery was originally used in this loco. My current thinking is that it may have been an old-school C battery ... one where you could peel off the outer wrapper to expose the negative terminal on the SIDE of the battery ... reducing the diameter a bit in the process, and allowing the battery neg terminal to make contact with the side pickup. Fuzzy thinking here, though.

Oh ... I just found some modern "sub-C" battery sizes ...

http://sub-c-cell-size.rambobattery.com/

Regards,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I just took a Ray-O-Vac alkaline C-cell out of my drawer and measured it. The diameter is .990" and the height including the "bump" is 49.5mm. It sounds like it would fit in that compartment.

---

C Battery Dimensions
C Battery Size
C Battery Diameter Height


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, John ... surprisingly, I didn't have a C on hand to do the same. A tight squeeze, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

(The guy in the other recent thread -- Lionel 1508 -- was saying that there was no way a C would fit that loco. I'm reasonably sure the compartments are similar. Misinformation on his part?)

I appreciate the info!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

What can I say, I actually measured the battery. If you exclude the positive bump on the top, the total size of the battery is 47.7mm, including the bump, it's 50mm tall. I mis-stated the diameter slightly, it's actually .999" or 25.37mm in diameter. I missed one 9 in the previous post. Still looks like it might squeeze in there.


----------



## T-Man

Have you thought of a power supply converted from the track. A bridge and voltage regulator some caps and resistors for voltage settings. It should fit.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I hadn't thought about that. It's possible, I guess. Remember, though, that the 1506L in question is a windup loco ... no pickup shoes, etc. Left/right wheels are not insulated from each other, either.

I'm trying to stay reasonably faithful to the original on this restoration project. I think I'll see if a C batt would fit, or maybe pad out a AA with some wrappings. My only non-original task will be to have a bottom-of-battery negative-terminal pickup, rather than the original side-of-battery setup.

Regards,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*New Suit Fitting ...*

Nice painting weather here in RI these past few days. Added a "new suit" of paint to my 1506L loco parts. Krlyon gloss Black and Banner Red ...

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Wind Me Up !!!*

I put the pieces of my little Lionel 1506L prewar windup loco back together earlier today. Re-assembly went fairly smooth ... one or two tiny touch-up spots in way of the re-tab assembly.

The windup motor on this loco gets tabbed into position with a pair of tab "ears" on the rear sideplates of the motor. A crazy design, in my opinion ... Lionel should have provided a screw-mount, rather than the tabs. For now, the motor is just sitting loose in the shell ... I have NOT bent the motor tabs back into "locked" position. I think I'll wait to see what I end up doing with my 1511 windup loco ... I may use this motor on that shell.

Anyway, BEFORE and AFTER pics follow, along with a comparison of this windup 1506L loco alongside its 1035 electric-motor cousin.

TJ


*BEFORE*











*AFTER*











*BEFORE*











*AFTER*









































*That's the 1506L windup in the foreground, and the 1035 electric (with my modified Lionel Jr motor) in the background.*


----------



## Big Ed

Wow the difference is like night & day.:thumbsup:

Nice shiny key too.


Is the electric train shorter then the windup?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

WOW, I'll take the after result! :thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks for the thumbs-up, guys!

Ed, the 1506L and the 1035 share essentially the same shell. Almost. Everything looks the same from the outside, except for the boiler-front bezel rings ... the one on the 1506L is larger to accept the bulb socket. Inside the shell, the cutouts for the motor mount in the red frame are different between the two locos, too.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Paternal twins then.


----------



## tjcruiser

I like these little locos. I've just picked up a 1015 on ebay. The 1015 has an electric motor and an orange frame (as opposed to the 1035 that has the red frame).

Here's a couple of ebay pics ... seems all there, with exception of a motor mount screw. (The top dome is squished, but that can be fixed.)

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Tha't back when basic was REALLY basic!  Looks to be very restore-able Tin Man.


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## servoguy

I sometimes contemplate the joy that a little loco like this must have brought some kid when it was new. Even though we look on this one as being very basic, there weren't many toys for kids when this loco was new.


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## Handyandy

TJ, you do awesome work!

I got into 3-rail post-war O-27 a few years ago after a burnout on scale model railroading, and I'm enjoying the more toy-like side of electric trains. FInding old clunkers and getting them going again is part of what I find fun with the old stuff. Recently I got bit by the tin bug and got hooked on Marx 3/16" scale O-gauge tin stuff. After seeing this and other similar posts by you, I'm begining to think pre-war tin would be a fun addition to my hobby.


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## tjcruiser

John -- likely restorable, as you said. I'm thinking of leaving this on in original paint, though ... will know more when I have it in my hands.

Bruce -- Lionel's very inexpensive "Winner Lines" brought model train fun to the common man/boy.

Andy -- Go for it! I got the tinplate bug a while back, and have enjoyed the ride ever since!

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*Lionel 1015 Loco -- Rehab in a day ...*

My Lionel 1015 ebay-find loco arrived over the weekend. I was pleasantly surprised ... in reasonably good condition, given its age, though covered in years of grime and gunk. Mechanically, all the pieces were there (with the exception of a motor mount screw), though the copper dome on top was heavily dented.

Despite the gunk and grime, the paint seemed salvagable ... especially the black boiler / cab.

Initially, I tried using GooGone to degunk the paint. Slow going. The grime was really deep. So, I pulled a bottle of auto clear-coat descratcher polish off of my shelf and gave that a shot. Worked better ... I rubbed in in with a flannel cloth, buffed out, repeat ... After a while, the old paint began to shine up a bit.

The motor was D.O.A. I removed the wheels, brushes/springs, and gave a a good GooGone douse with pipe cleaner degunk. A multimeter told me I had OK conductivity through the field coil and armature windings, so I simply cleaned the ends of the copper wire running to each, put the brushes/springs back, and gave the thing another shot. Bingo! It ran like a charm.

While I had the wheels off, I buffed up the stainless (?) motor sideplates on my burnishing wheel. Ditto for the drive rods.

I removed the dome and smokestack for some rehab. I left the copper handrails and bell installed, but buffed them up with a stainless Dremel brush while having the nearby paint protected with a plastic hotel key cushion.

When I was a kid (60's/70's), I wreaked havoc by burning little plastic green army men into balls of melted goo. I suspect that kids in the 1930's wreaked havoc by whacking domes on Lionel locos with a ball peen hammer! That's my only explanation as to what may have happened to this dome, as found.

Luckily, I've gotten pretty good at repairing domes using my simple, amazing wonder tool ... a spare door hinge pin. Its head is convex with soft edges. I place a dented dome on a wood block on my vise anvil, and then simply tap down on the hinge pin, moving it around a bit to all areas of the (back side) of the dome. In a matter of a minute or two, the dents all but disappear. I'm always amazed at how good these battle-scarred domes look afterwards. I clear-coated the copper dome, smokestack, bell, handrails with airplane dope.

While you guys usually find me doing a full strip and repaint restoration job, I was keen to leave this little loco in as near-original condition as possible. A few hours invested on a Sunday breathed some new life into the old loco, I think. There's a few scratches and worn edges on the paint, but perhaps they help tell the story of this little loco (but with the evil hammer-whacking kid part left out!). 

Cheers,

TJ




























Here's the dented dome, as found ...










Here's the same dome, all smoothed out. How 'bout that paint, too? Cleaned up nicely, huh?










Here's the spare door-hinge pin that I used as my "wonder tool" to peen dented domes back into shape ...











Dome upside down, sitting on a wood block on anvil ... gentle taps (with hammer) on the pin ... move the pin around inside the dome a bit ... tap tap ... and bingo ... dents vanish!


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## gunrunnerjohn

That looks almost like a full restoration, great job!  I concur with your decision to leave it "stock" as much as possible, looks great.

I'm guessing the domes get beat up by just falling on them, but who knows...


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## T-Man

A door hinge! Why didn't I think of that. Very clever ! :thumbsup:

The engine looks great!


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## servoguy

Great job, TJ. I agree. Don't repaint. It looks really good as it is. I think John is correct in that the domes are relatively soft and thin, and so could be damaged in many ways.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks for the nice comments, guys.

Surprisingly, with the dome damaged the way it was, the original paint on the top of the boiler barely had a scratch. I wonder if the dome took a hit when the loco was packed away in a box, with something heavy put on top? We'll never know, I guess!

T-Man ... the key, I found, is to use a door hinge pin with a curved/cambered shape. It fits the inside contour of the dome nicely. (You'll appreciate that I discovered this little gem while rummaging through my junk draw, looking for some clever gizmo to jump out at me!)

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed

Nice job without painting it.:thumbsup:

I wonder if the orange is original?
I have never seen one painted like that.

But then again, I never went out of my way to look for them.
Have you seen others colored like that one?


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## tjcruiser

Ed,

This thread is about a trio of brother/cousin locos ...

1015 -- electric 0-4-0, black with orange frame
1035 -- electric 0-4-0, black with red fame (otherwise identical to the above)
1506L -- windup 0-4-0, black with red frame (visually similar to the above)

The 1015 and the 1035 were produced / tagged with Lionel's inexpensive "Winner Lines" branding.

Regards,

TJ


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## Guest

Handyandy said:


> TJ, you do awesome work!
> 
> I got into 3-rail post-war O-27 a few years ago after a burnout on scale model railroading, and I'm enjoying the more toy-like side of electric trains. FInding old clunkers and getting them going again is part of what I find fun with the old stuff. Recently I got bit by the tin bug and got hooked on Marx 3/16" scale O-gauge tin stuff. After seeing this and other similar posts by you, I'm begining to think pre-war tin would be a fun addition to my hobby.


MANY years ago, while running at a 3-day Thanksgiving event, jumping between the 3-rail modules and the 2-rail 0 modules, I talked to a guy I had known for a while running on the 2-rail module.
He was running beautiful scale, painted, brass equipment.
He looked wistfully over to the 3-rail module and said, boy, I wish I hadn't gotten out of 3-rail. Those guys have fun.

I do both....the three rail is "HiRail", semi-scaled, the 2-rail is "vintage", all US made, steamers are sand-cast bronze, don't think there is any plastic on the trains. But, I use the old nmra coupler height (higher), ,145 wheels, and .172 rail, all powered (when I get the 2-rail done) with Marn-0-Stats.
A lot of them.
Dave


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## tjcruiser

No true-scale rivet-counters on these tinplate toys!


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## Big Ed

So.......Then I am guessing ALL the 1015's have the orange?


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## tjcruiser

Yup! Black/orange 1015's ...

They came with a tender (black/orange, too) that looked like this ... (not mine ... just an ebay example) ...










The tender shell is essentially the same as the 1661-T tender that's mated to my 1681 locos, albeit here with a smaller draw-bar hole opening and a different paint scheme with "Winner Lines" graphics.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Handyandy

tjcruiser said:


> No true-scale rivet-counters on these tinplate toys!


There's like what, two rivets on tinplate? One to attach each truck?


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## tjcruiser

*Lionel 1506 (in contrast to 1506L)*

We saw above how I restored a windup Lionel 1506L, along with the similar-looking electric-motored 1015 and 1035 locos.

I've just "discovered" (I think???) that Lionel had another similar-looking windup loco offered in 1935, the 1506 ... but here, all red, and with no battery-power light. Interestingly, (I think??), the boiler front was BLANK ... no bezel ring headlamp.

Can anyone confirm that this was the case?

These are pics from an ebay example ... not my loco ...

TJ


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## Hellgate

Here is the picture from the ad in the 1935 catalog.... Not a lot of info
In the reference book I have it says the following:

1506 0-4-0 with headlight, bell and brake, no whistle, with a 4-wh 1509 "Mickey Mouse" stoker tender, light red, sets only, 7 1/4" 1935
1506L 0-4-0 same as 1506 but with 4-wh 1502 tender, black 1933-34


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## gunrunnerjohn

$1.25 for the set, the price is right.  Gosh, that's only $21.18 in 2013 dollars, still a pretty good deal!


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## tjcruiser

Hellgate,

Thanks very much for the info / catalog pic. Much appreciated.

Where did you see that the 1506 had a "headlight" ???

TJ


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## Hellgate

Apparently they were made by Ives. After Lionel took over Ives they then appeared in the catalog. I do not know what the difference between the Ives and Lionel were... They might be the exact same..
Anyways here is more info. The book I got the info from is the 1st pic


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, Hellgate ... wonderful historic info! Much appreciated.

TJ


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## Hellgate

No problem!


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## sjm9911

Tj I was looking for these at the train show, I did not see any. Just figured I'd let you know.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks VERY much!

I was eyeing the red 1506 shown in the pics above on ebay. It sold last night for $63 ... plus another $22 for shipping from Canada. Nice little loco, but too steep for my pockets.

TJ


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## tjcruiser

For any of you with a soft spot for these little prewar locos, I learned an interesting tidbit from member LtCoyle a few weeks back (as I was lost in life's abyss) ...

I had thought that the primary difference between a 1015 and a 1035 was the trim color.
1015 was black with orange trim; 1035 was black with red trim. LtCoyle suggests another distinguishing feature: though they both shared the Winner Lines motor, the 1035's had a functioning headlight, and the 1015's did not.

I believe he's right about this.

Thanks, LtCoyle, for adding another clue to the old puzzle!

TJ


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## tjcruiser

I happened to spot this Lionel / Winner motor on ebay. This one has the light bracket / socket that I mentioned above. (I don't think this was used on a 1035, as there are no drive rod pin holes on the rear wheels.)


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## eljefe

Nice to see TJ is back in action!


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## tjcruiser

*The One That Got Away ...*

As life has pulled me in other directions, my workbench has been collecting dust, and screaming out for a project. I spotted a neat little 1506 windup loco on eBay last week, and in early bidding, I thought I was a shoe-in for giving it a new home. First bids were around $10 ... I jumped in with a $50, thinking I'd block out all takers.

Or so I thought ... final bidding (beyond my wallet) went up to $171 for this little relic (and one lacking it's wind-up motor core, too).

I thought I'd post the tale here in this thread for documentation.

I'm still in the hunt, though!

TJ


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## sjm9911

I had know idea they went for that much! I'll keep my eye out tj.


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## servoguy

TJ, it is good to have you back. We miss you when you are not with us.


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## Big Ed

I don't think it was worth what it sold for.:dunno:
It didn't even have a motor? No tender to mate to it?

What were you going to do for a motor if you had won?


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys. I'm always here in spirit, ServoGuy!

I was shocked with the price, too, Ed. As for a motor if I had won, probably nothing ... more of a shelf loco, along with my other collection of misfits!


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## Big Ed

This might be nice for you knowing a little about the nautical part of you. 
It would look nice on the mantle? And they will hold it's value.

Lionel #43 boat. I have been bidding, at least putting bids in for over a year now. Like my 442 diner. http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=4127 
I am not willing to pay what they go for.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Craf...008275?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19f34bb853

I am watching this one, it needs a lot of work and a lot of pieces are missing.
But I am watching.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prewar-Lion...249593?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2ed78406f9











What I am really wanting is this one, Lionel #44, it rarely comes on the market, they are out there but not for what I want to pay. I went up to $375 for one that was in great shape but it went well over $500 in the end. 
I would like to get both for the mantle.:smilie_daumenpos:

This is a Lionel Train company boat called Lionel Craft. It's all metal, made in 1935 and a windup motor. 
This particular boat is a reproduction from 1989.









You have to do some research on these if you do want one, and watch out there are many reproduction boats and parts. I have seen the original people for the #43 go for over $500 bucks! Crazy! Must be nice to have that kind of dough to throw away on something like that! I might have the money but I still can't see the crazy price some of these get. 
As I am unwilling to blow a lot for one of these. Maybe one will come to me like my 442 diner did. Took me over a year for that, and I didn't even have to do nothing but clean it up.

I am hoping I see one of these from somewhere like an estate sale. A lot of times those people don't know what they got.


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## gunrunnerjohn

My goodness TJ, that's pretty pricy for that little loco! I had no idea they'd go for that either.


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## Yukon Jack

Great thread! It helped me to identify my little mystery loco as a Lionel 1035. I picked it up thinking it was a Joy Line. I turned down a set of brushes for it, and it runs now. 



This is the only pic I have taken, but can take more if it would add to what is already known.


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## tjcruiser

Ed -- good luck with the boat hunt. Cool tinplate. I hope your diner winning streak continues!

Jack -- Welcome to the club!!! Though a bit dusty, your little 1035 looks to be in nice shape ... intact wheels, drive rods, etc. I love these little locos!

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*Back to it ...*

I think some mushy corner of my brain is addicted to these little locos. Every time a get a whiff of one, the adrenaline starts flowing. It's been some time since I had a real "fix", so I figured a quick hit wouldn't do my brain too much more damage ...

A while back, I had restored a Lionel Winner motor that I had nabbed on ebay. It's the type of motor that would have been used in the 1015 and 1035 locos. It's been sitting on my shelf for the past couple of years, feeling lonely, with no shell to cozy up all snugly like.

Well, I spied a 1015 shell on ebay the other day. It was erroneously listed as American Flyer. I picked it up for around $20. I haven't touched or cleaned it, yet, but I might give it a full strip down / repaint when the weather warms.



















Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser

Earlier in this thread, I talked about the acquisition and restoration of my little 1506L windup loco with battery-powered headlamp. In our earlier dialog, we talked about what type of battery may have originally been used.

Here's my initial questioning ...



tjcruiser said:


> Past readers here will recall that this thread compares a few similar Lionel / Ives (transition era) prewar locos: the electric-motored 1015 and 1035 (identical except for trim color), and the similar-looking but windup (clockwork) powered 1506L.
> 
> The 1035 has an internal headlight. In contrast, the 1506L has a light that's mounted directly on the outside of the boiler front.
> 
> But ... we have ... A MYSTERY !!!  ...
> 
> The headlight operates off of a battery that was mounted in a round recess in the back of the loco frame. There's a lever at the top that one could turn to engage the upper positive-terminal of the battery, presumably turning the light on. There's another spring-plate that pushes against the side of the battery, helping to hold the battery in place, and presumably touching some negative-terminal of the battery. However, this is ON THE SIDE OF THE BATTERY ... not the bottom. The frame recess looks like it would be sized for a C-size battery, but that doesn't mesh with where the negative-terminal contact point is ... on the side. As such, I have no idea what style of battery was used in this loco. Does anyone have any ideas??? As a sidethought, I was thinking that the bottom of the springplate might be broken off (missing), and it was that that touched the negative terminal on a conventional C battery. However, I have this 1506L loco and one other 1506L empty shell, and they BOTH have no bottom "finger" on the springplate. Like I said ... a mystery ...


Well, there's an active 1506L set listing on ebay, and the seller posted a photo of the actual battery instructions from Lionel:










The instructions say:

*"If you desire to illuminate this Locomotive, procure a small flash light Cell (Eveready No. 935 type). Remove paper jacket and slide Battery into position under rear of Cab. Remove battery when exhausted otherwise it may damage this toy. The Lionel Corporation, New York"*

Cool ... right from source!

TJ


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## tjcruiser

Per the above post, I gotta tip my hat to Servoguy Bruce, who had the jump many posts back on how one had to remove the paper jacket on old fashioned batteries ...



servoguy said:


> I remember back in the old days, that some of the C and D cells had a cardboard cover that could be removed. The outside of the batteries was zinc, and the + connector was carbon, which is why they were called "carbon zinc batteries." Newer batteries usually have a steel outer casing which is not easily removed.


TJ


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## tjcruiser

*It's a Winner !!!*

Normally, I buy rusted / dented train relics for $25 or so, and tinker a bit to fix them up. That said, I spotted this all-original 1015 loco and 1016 tender on ebay recently, and couldn't resist drooling over what great condition they're in, especially the loco. Very little track usage (as evidenced by the intact pickup contact), near-pristine orange paint, super clean motor (and nameplate), shiny copper ... drool ... drool ... drool ...

I reached into my wallet a bit more than usual, and now this little, all-original loco has a new place to call home.

Smiles all around, I think.

TJ


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## sjm9911

Nice Tj. It does look to good for ya! Send it my way. Don't get started on these too, you'll run out of room soon. Hows the front ph shoe? It looks a bit flat? Otherwise its an A plus.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Looks like TJ's back, the "Tin Man" is reaching deeper into the wallet!


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys.

These Lionel "Winner" motors have only one flexible pickup shoe in the back. The copper in the front is part of the same plate, but it's not intended to work at a pickup. Further, the shoe itself is not replaceable. Most Winner motors have a slot (gap) worn into the shoe, where it's been riding around on the center track rail.

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*That Annoying Friend ...*

We all have one ... that annoying friend who always finds a way to hang out with you and your "in" crowd, despite that fact that he's a bit goofy and awkward.

Well, my little 1015 loco shell is one of those guys. A couple of his 1501 loco buddies where heading over to the Strip Club, and wouldn't you know it ... 1015 tailed along for the wild fun. Go figure ...

 

(Interestingly, when this shell was stripped down, I realized that the steel metal was a lot more "blackened" than what I've seen before with Lionel ... almost as if it had a gun-blue treatment. Nothing wrong with that, but just ... different. Again, that goofy friend!)

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*I guess he got lucky, too ...*

Buffed and shined ...


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## Big Ed

You missed a spot. :smilie_daumenpos:

What flavor will it be? *************?:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

Flavor? Good question. Believe it or not, I'm going to turn this 1015 into a 1035. They are essentially the same, except the 1015 (original here) has an ORANGE frame, whereas the 1035 has a RED frame.

I already have two other orange-frame 1015's. I also have a red-frame 1035 that I restored with a Frankenbash-fit Lionel Jr motor (not original), and a similar-looking 1506L windup version. But, I never had a true 1035 ... until now ... with a little repaint action in the works.

TJ


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## tjcruiser

My 1015 (soon to be 1035) is still hanging out with his 1501 buddies. They all had some fun in the outdoor spray booth (a plywood sheet on my back lawn) this weekend, in great painting weather.

Lookin' good, so far!

TJ


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## sjm9911

sjm9911 said:


> Nice Tj. It does look to good for ya! Send it my way. Don't get started on these too, you'll run out of room soon. Hows the front ph shoe? It looks a bit flat? Otherwise its an A plus.


I warned ya! still not too late to get rid of them! They do look nice.


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## tjcruiser

I haven't worked on the copper shiny bits, yet, but I think they'll add some extra sparkle.

Thanks for the nice comments guys!


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## tjcruiser

*Metamorphisis ...*

I've nearly finished the restoration of my little 1015 loco, and in the process, switched the loco frame from orange to red ... creating a 1035 loco. A little metamorphisis ... not quite purist, but it makes me happy, and fills in a missing hole in my prewar tinplate collection.

So ... debuting here on Model Train Forum for the very first time, I present TJ's "new" 1035 loco with an original Lionel / Winner Lines electric motor ...

TJ

PS -- I should note that member Teledoc has graciously offered to contribute a new repro set of drive rods to the restoration. Coming soon! (Thanks, Jerry!!!)


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## teledoc

All new ORPHANS need to be fully adorned, and new side rods will ship Tuesday, when I get back home. That looks pretty spiffy TJ.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, Doc ... MUCH appreciated!!!


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## sjm9911

Dam nice Tj!


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## teledoc

TJ, gotta ask how you get the motor frames so clean and shiny, and the wheels also. They come out looking like they are factory fresh.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, guys.

I used LOTS of stainless steel Dremel wire brushes (which spit out nasty needles), but the cleaning power is great. After that I used a burnishing wheel mounted to a bench grinder. We have a thread here somewhere that talks about the wheel. I think under the topic of cleaning up old tubular track.


----------



## tjcruiser

My 1015 (ex. 1035) loco restoration project is now sporting some new (repro) drive rods, courtesy of Teledoc Jerry. Thanks, Doc!!!! They look great!

In the "things are never as easy as you think" department, though ...

The predrilled holes in these 1681 drive rods are too big for the heads of the brads that held the original drive rods (long lost) on this loco. So, I had to machine down the shank of some other brads with bigger heads, to fit the existing bore (with friction) that's in the wheel studs.

A little extra work, but worth it!

TJ


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## teledoc

Now that's what we're talking about....looks gorgeous as usual. Orphans onl need a little TLC, and see what you get!


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## Big Ed

:smilie_daumenpos:
Now you have to go and redo some passenger cars (or whatever they came with) for the locomotives to pull around.
I know you have some, but I am guessing not enough?


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## tjcruiser

I have very few passenger cars, Ed. My only are a 610 / 612 set that I redid a while back ... red with silver roofs. But they are twice the size of these little Winner Lines locos (and the windup locos). I think it'd be a case of the Little Engine that Couldn't!

For now (at least), I'm on a loco restoration kick. Buy 'em cheap, fix 'em, display 'em. All in a row on a desktop in my living room. Nice and shiny, too. Makes me smile! 

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

At least let's add some tenders! Those coal powered locomotives don't go far without water and coal!


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## tjcruiser

I agree, John. Some tenders are hanging out in my graveyard, awaiting a little rehab. Someday soon ...


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## gunrunnerjohn

You need to dig them up and match them with the deserving locomotives.


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## tjcruiser

*For the first time in life ...*

I got lucky with two recent eBay finds that, coincidentally, worked perfectly with each other ...

I nabbed a Lionel Winner prewar motor ... in tired shape, with a missing / broken brush holder, but ... with solid and clean wheels, and OK windings. The Winner brush holders are riveted to the frame, and I didn't have a spare, so ... I drilled off the broken holder, and mounted a Lionel Jr brush holder via tapped holes with screws. Brush spacing is identical, so a relatively easy swap-over. I then spent a bit of time cleaning up motor, and re-soldered a wire from the field coil to the brush can.

Meanwhile ...

I spied and nabbed (!) what appeared to be an unused, New Old Stock Lionel 1015 shell on eBay. It was listed as a repaint, but the photos showed otherwise. All original paint (except for some small chip touch-ups), and, as far as I could tell, a shell that had never seen a motor or run-time.

So ...

Motor, meet shell. Shell, meet motor. And it is love thereafter!

(Now, purists will say that this motor isn't quite right for the 1015. A real 1015 would have drive rods and wheels with red-painted spokes. My motor here has no drive rods, and bare wheels. But ... we'll keep that hush, hush, for now ...)

The little thing runs like a charm! For the first time in life!!!

TJ


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## sjm9911

Nice tj, what's up with the pu clips? I'm surprised the wheels reach the track!


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## T-Man

Looking Good! I like the colors,


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, T.

SJM -- on this little motor, the front copper "pickup" isn't really one; rather, it's flat against the black underplate. The back pickup is an integral spring plate (it flexes up and down), but (unfortunately), it's rather thin, and not replaceable. It's common that you'll see it worn through from rubbing on the center rail, as shown here. With that, I had to bend it outward a bit so that it touches the track. (Remember, it does flex up and down with any pressure.)

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc

TJ, I am currently eyeballing the same motor, as a possible addition to the ever growing Prewar stable. Have added a few new items in the past year. It's all your fault.!!!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn

I wonder if you could retrofit roller(s) to that motor?


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## tjcruiser

Anything's possible, I guess. You can see on the underside-forward a rivet where that thin copper plate attaches.

It was a bit nuts that Lionel-Winner built these without a replaceable or durable pickup. But, then again, it was their bargain-priced entry line ... so cost-production savings were key, I guess.

(Thanks, by the way, for all of your tireless Forum management work, John ... much appreciated!)

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> Anything's possible, I guess. You can see on the underside-forward a rivet where that thin copper plate attaches.
> 
> It was a bit nuts that Lionel-Winner built these without a replaceable or durable pickup. But, then again, it was their bargain-priced entry line ... so cost-production savings were key, I guess.


I was thinking of something hanging out to the side. Of course, it really depends on how much it gets run.  I suppose a simple "bandaid" would be soldering a copper strip across the gap and just forming the old piece so it didn't project quite as much.


> (Thanks, by the way, for all of your tireless Forum management work, John ... much appreciated!)


I am glad to see you back, you can pick up some of the slack.


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## tjcruiser

I've seen many Winner locos with the pickup "wear hole" filled in with some thin copper and solder, just like you're describing, John ... a common, logical fix.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Glad to know some of my logical brain cells are still functioning, there's hope for us old geezers yet!


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## T-Man

Try to find a cheep flash light, They have thin copper banding that could be a replacement.


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## tjcruiser

That's a good idea, T-man ... likely just about the right width, too.

Thanks!



TJ


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## tjcruiser

*For the first time, ever ...*

I got lucky with this one ...

I eBay spotted a Lionel Winner motor ... no wheels, and listed as non-functioning. The seller said that the middle gear would not turn a full turn, and that the motor did not run when hooked up to power.

But ... surprisingly, based on the listing photos, everything that was there showed little if any wear.

So, I bought the thing, and took a chance ...

Upon arrival, as I looked at the motor, I saw zero signs of any wear or run time. Everything was super crisp.  Perfect "THE WINNER ..." stamp on the bottom. Zero abrasion on the pickup. Hmmm .... OK ... now to investigate further ...

The non-rotation problem was easily identified. There was a small metal glob in one gear tooth that prevented the large (middle) gear from rotating a full turn. I flicked it out with a needle, and that solved that problem. Motor now spun by hand OK.

With hopes, I hooked up some power, and figured she might now run OK.

Not. The armature consistently did a 1/3 turn, then stopped cold. No coaxing, oiling, etc. would get it passed that. It must be something screwy with the armature, windings, etc.

The frustrating thing on the Winner motors is that the brushplate holder was riveted in place. No easy way to get to the armature face to investigate. So, with some reluctance, I filed the rivets free, and pulled off the brushplate holder. Not much gunk at all. Actually, rather clean in there.

And then, I saw the problem ... the armature face has three copper segments. There should be a little gap between each of these. On this motor, two segments were actually touching each other ... essentially shorting out the electromagnet so that the motor would only spin 1/3 turn, as observed.

With a little flat-head screwdriver, I coaxed the two copper segments apart from each other. Then, a quick clean, oil, and re-assemble. (I re-attached the brushplate holder with 4-36 screws tapped into the motor frame.)

I cross my finger, and fired the thing up. Whirr!!! She spins like a charm! And literally, for the first time, EVER, I suspect. I think this must have been a factory defect motor that got tossed into a spare bin, and never used or fiddle with ... until me and now.

Welcome to life, little motor!

Now, I've got to find some wheels and figure out what I'm going to do with this little thing ...

Hmmm ...

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

It certainly looks brand new! Looks like you need axles and wheels. Henning's is doing a lot of pre-war wheels, the old Model Engineering product line, they might have the wheels.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, John. Truth is, I've done enough of these little Winner and Junior loco / motor projects that I have a little collection of orphaned wheels. I haven't actually looked yet, but I think I can pull out a full set (w/ and w/o gears; w/ and w/o drive rod studs).

And ... I just might swap this "new" motor into the 1015 NOS loco shell I cleaned up a couple of weeks ago ... the one with the worn-hole pickup shoe. New with the new, so to speak ... just 85 years later!


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## gunrunnerjohn

tjcruiser said:


> And ... I just might swap this "new" motor into the 1015 NOS loco shell I cleaned up a couple of weeks ago ... the one with the worn-hole pickup shoe. New with the new, so to speak ... just 85 years later!


Well TJ, that would be a... *Winner*!


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## teledoc

*Lionel 1681*

This is an old thread, but looking at the photo comparison of the “1681”, and the Windup locos, i realized that the loco labeled 1681 is actually the earlier 1661. The two locos share the same body, but the motors are different. The way to tell the 1661 is “Copper/Brass” trim. The 1681 came with Nickel trim. The trim is the telltale sign, of which loco you have. The 1661 came in Black, with red frame only, whereas the 1681 had a second color scheme of of all red.


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## tjcruiser

*UPDATE, 11 NOV 2018 --

Teledoc and I have been delving into the Ives, Lionel (and Winner Lines) transition era. As we now believe, Ives first produced an electric-powered small loco using the basic 1015/1035 shell (before those actually existed). Ives tagged the loco "1815" and used this motor shown in Post 167 with "The Ives Corp / Irvington, NJ" printed on the collector plate.

Then, during the Ives to Lionel transition (with Lionel's Winner Lines thrown into the mix), Lionel re-issued the loco under the Winner Lines brand name as the 1015 electric-powered loco (black with orange frame) and also the 1035 electric powered loco (black with red frame). In both, they used essentially this same motor, but instead with "The Winner Toy Corp. / New York" printed on the collector plate.

So, we now believe that this motor shown in Post 167 was for the earlier IVES 1815 loco, as a precursor clone to the later 1015/1035 locos.

TJ

*


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## tjcruiser

Expanding further, Teledoc pinged an Ives historian buddy, and he sent the following photos of a TRUE Ives 1815 loco (precursor to the 1015/1035, but with "The Ives Corp / Irvington, NJ" printed on the collector plate. Here, too, the loco is shown mated to the 1507 tender, in both freight and passenger sets.

Excellent research by Teledoc!

Outstanding question, though: TJ's Ives motor (via collector plate tag) had 8-spoke wheels with NO drive rod crank. However, the motor from the 1815 Ives loco shown below DOES have drive rods. So ... what does TJ's motor come from? Another version of the 1815 without drive rods???

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*1506L Battery Adaptor*

We've commented here previously that the Lionel 1506L loco (and also the Lionel 1508 Vanderbilt-style loco) had a windup motor but also an electric headlight powered by an onboard DC battery. The old-school battery intended was just slightly smaller than a modern-day C, but with its negative (-) terminal as the outside shell of the battery (exposed originally by peeling away the battery wrap paper). We're not aware that anyone makes a battery like this today.

Teledoc and I have chatted about making a little adapter that would house a modern AA battery, and transfer the (-) terminal from the bottom of the battery to the side of the adapter/battery combo.

Here's a photo of an original (old) battery installed, along with some photos of a creative ADAPTER that I just saw posted via a current eBay listing. This is NOT my adapter, but rather simply one of like-minded thinking. It looks to me like the adapter was made out of machined Lucite (or similar), with a simple brass bar for the terminal transfer. 'Doc was thinking one could use a piece of PVC pipe. Either way, the concept is similar.

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc

TJ, I see that you did find the adapted battery holder, that I suggested in an earlier PM. I think that you, being able to see, from my descriipton, that it should be easy to come up with a workable solution. My choice of battery was using a 123A camera battery, along with making an outer sleeve from PVC. I will wait and see what the "Mad Scientist" comes up with. 

I recently posted my latest acquistion, which is the Battery operated headlight 1508 shell. The race is on, as to who gets the modification done first.


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## tjcruiser

'Doc, I had a quick-and-dirty trial run with an adapter. I used 1/16" soft craft foam wrapped around an AA battery (like a roll of paper towel), along with a simple terminal strip made from a thin brass bar. The foam is nice because it offers a nice friction fit inside the loco shell holder.

In concept, I was on the right track. However, I realized that all of my thread-socket bulbs are for 14V ... too much resistance to light with just 1.5V from an AA battery. I'll need to pick up a flashlight bulb to try things out.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Lee Willis

Fantastic project. Great story.

Thanks for posting this. And good luck with that additional quarter inch!


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## T-Man

No room for a 9 volt?


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## teledoc

Bob, Trying to adapt a 9 volt battery would require some major modification to the battery area. The way that the switch is located, to pick up the + side, and making the - side connection, would destroy the battery cavity. The best solution, to retain the existing battery holder, is to make an adaptive battery, close to the original design, that keeps the original dimensions. TJ, will probably try the solution before I do, and knowing how meticulous he is, it should come out fine. My choice of battery, would be a 123A, camera battery, with nominal 3 volts.


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