# not looking good for MTH command system



## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

watch this video and see if you feel the same


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Thread title caught my eye, but i don't feel like watching for an hour or so. Is there a time in the video that speaks to DCS?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They are talking about early next year for the "new" WTIU due to parts shortages. I can say that I see how that would be possible, I've had all sorts of issues getting very common parts for some of my stuff. I've had to substitute parts for several board orders in order to get them made. My major concern with MTH is there are only a handful of people in all their "divisions" trying to make it look like a big company.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> Thread title caught my eye, but i don't feel like watching for an hour or so. Is there a time in the video that speaks to DCS?


yes 36:30


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks. Just sounded to me like the new WTIU is delayed because they can't get parts. Like everything else these days. It will come out eventually, but I won't buy one...unless both of my TIUs die.
I also think they said that the WTIU will work with a hand-held if it is tethered. And maybe eventually they will make it so it does not need to be tethered. That is a good thing,


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> Thanks. Just sounded to me like the new WTIU is delayed because they can't get parts. Like everything else these days. It will come out eventually, but I won't buy one...unless both of my TIUs die.
> I also think they said that the WTIU will work with a hand-held if it is tethered. And maybe eventually they will make it so it does not need to be tethered. That is a good thing,


tethered is not good for clubs or large layouts


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I would love to know the story about why they only did it tethered! Even Lionel was smart enough to make their upcoming BASE3 compatible with the Legacy CAB2 and CAB1L as well as their phone apps. Having a tethered only option makes the DCS remote 98% useless for anyone with more than a small layout.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

If I heard correctly, there are plans to eventually make it so the hand-held remote does not need to be tethered.

The discussion was interesting. Both Andy and Rich were pushing use of a smart phone just like Mike did a few years ago at York. Was also interesting that the older Ken preferred the hand-held while Ken Jr liked the smart phone.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I doubt I will ever have to use a phone or tablet but it wouldn't be a big deal if I did. I found the app just as easy to use on my tablet as the handheld and it was certainly easier to see. All the primary functions are on the first screen. Startup, speed, horn, bell, couplers. How much do you use the other buttons when running trains?
The only concern is hearing that the app hasn’t been upgraded in years and sometimes fail to communicate letting trains run amok. That has to fixed but actual user interface is not a problem.

Pete


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

I think the DIY community has been working on some form of solution to wireless the tether.

That said, I'm going to pitch another approach to MTH and the community at large. 
OK, fine, so Its are delayed. They are still selling trains and still selling trains with whistle steam. They want to promote the app and while that's not my preferred choice, a compromise can be made. There are still folks out there with DCS Explorers from starter sets. It's effectively a single channel TIU with Wifi. One of the huge complaints is that not only is single fixed channel limited to about 5A (input says 6A, but the fuse is rated at 5A), and it cannot be used in passive mode. But the real kicker in the teeth is he software limitations. They limit to 3 locos, no advanced functions- not even whistle steam. So let me get this right, you start off, you buy MTH starter set. You then get deeper into the hobby and buy a whistle steam equipped engine, no TIUs are available to buy, you have DCS via the explorer, but you are crippled by a software limitation. MTH sells upgrade app licenses but they ONLY work when used with a TIU and WIU, not the explorer. MTH already has the billing model in place for upgrade licenses. They have the hardware out there. 

What I'm proposing is another upgrade license for the DCS Explorer in which you unlock some of the hidden features and key ones like whistle steam. It just seems to me this tiering of the system, facing the starter set user to buy a TIU that you cannot even make or build is counter productive to overall sales. 
Again, this simple, create an upgrade license or new version of the app that unlocks the DCS Explorer with some features so you can keep selling high end trains and not cripple your customer base with a control system that you cannot even build.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I think the more ominous long term signal is the lack of production of starter sets (never a big seller, perhaps, but important to bring people into the hobby with your technology) and lack of production of track. Basically limited runs of a few locos and a range of rolling stock (freight only). This approach is not a sustainable one for many present DCS and all future DCS users is my thought. Are you going to buy an MTH locomotive now unless you plan to operate it in conventional? If you are interested in command, are you going to buy an MTH loco if DCS components are not widely and readily available? This will be a more obvious to the new consumer issue once Lionel manages to get its base 3 on the market and starts shipping cab-1L's again.

Basically, we are in the Twilight Zone here for the future of this segment of the hobby. Lots of vaporware . But Lionel's vaporware seems more likely to become reality at this point.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What is Lionel's vaporware? While some stuff never makes it out of the catalog, that's been happening for decades, it's nothing new. If you're talking about the BASE3, I'd bet money and give you long odds that it'll be produced. The only question is when, and that's dependent on the availability of components. I can assure you, the component shortages are real, I see them a lot!


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"What is Lionel's vaporware? "

I was trying to be fair. Right now Lionel does not have for sale any command base or handheld remotes. Neither does MTH. That's reality. Is Lionel's promise to provide cab-1Ls and Base 3s more likely to be reliable than MTH's promise to develop a new remote and continue development of DCS? I'd say yes, but right now, those are promises, not products. I'm known as a Lionel fan. I own MTH rolling stock and continue to purchase same. Do I think MTH's current business model is sustainable for years, much less decades (I'm not likely good for more than another one or two of these)? Heck no. 

If I was someone in their 20-60s entering the hobby, I'd be buying Lionel sets, locos and command equipment and largely ignoring MTH locos and command equipment as being unlikely to be around for the coming years and decades. But I could be completely wrong. MTH is in the "prove it" stage of their evolution, as far as I can see. Lionel is likely here to stay for decades. Time will tell. Right now, it is frustrating for those who want to purchase either MTH or Lionel command equipment. Hence, my use of the term vaporware.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, unless something significantly changes at MTH, I don't see them being around at all in a few years. I don't understand the current business model at all, and I doubt many business people would. It appears they're thinking they can just produce the product, toss it over the wall, and disavow any responsibility for long term support. Once enough people get screwed by not having any parts or support, the word will get out and the buyers will go away. If I buy a $1500 Premier steam engine and two years later I can't get parts to keep it running, that would really sour me on MTH products!

Lionel is far from perfect for long term support, but it's way better than what we have right now from MTH. There is a whole shelf of MTH stuff in for repair at the store waiting on boards that may never appear.

I do agree that it was stupid for Lionel to discontinue all their command systems before there was a replacement, that decision defies logic. However, I think the current delays are most likely more about parts procurement than a lack of a working design.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't know much about the modern electronics that are in just about everything manufactured these days. Intel's decision to build a 20 Billion dollar chip manufacturing center just outside Columbus Ohio must mean the current manufacturing process which is mostly done off shore has issues. I would think that a corporation like Ford that can't get the electronic gizmos to operate their vehicles has become a serious manufacturing problem not just for Ford but every other company also. Its going to be a few years before the gigantic Intel facility is operational so it looks like there will be continued delays, especially for the smaller users of electronic gizmos.

Bill


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Good reason why I’m having my MTH engines converted to Legacy. Lionel electronics are still in stock, and should be for awhile


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

superwarp1 said:


> Good reason why I’m having my MTH engines converted to Legacy. Lionel electronics are still in stock, and should be for awhile


You say that, but recently, and I'm not sure when, all the LCP2 board listings disappeared.





Search results for "lcp2"







www.lionelsupport.com





Oh sure, they have the boards, will they sell them? Or is this all part of it must come to them for support?

I bought this board last year, but you cannot find it today on Lionel Parts.

691LCP2003LCP2 / REV B / LCM4 / 0-6-0 / BETH STEEL 2032030$150.00


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

To fair, I'm guessing you meant Lionel RCMC/RCMD series, and Railsounds lite boards when doing conversions.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Jetguy said:


> To fair, I'm guessing you meant Lionel RCMC/RCMD series, and Railsounds lite boards when doing conversions.


Yep


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## Mooner (Jun 20, 2018)

I sold 2 MTH Rev L TIUs and a WiFi last year for a surprising amount of money. I then bought a MTH DCS Commander for $150 to run the 1 scale MTH engine we have and put in an order for the $350 TIU/WiFi unit yet to be produced. Could have ordered a 2nd and still been ahead on the sale. I'm all in on using an app v remote so the decision was easy. I had the TIUs because we have a dozen Rail King engines but are slowly selling those off as we move to scale using mostly Atlas and Lionel engines. We have Cab2 to run both Legacy and TMCC. The Lionel system is so easy to set up with the 1 wire connection and it works great. The DCS Commander is very different from the full TIU, but it bridges the gap until the new TIU is produced. Fully aware that even the end of year projection might not be realistic, still, I can wait. And if it never comes, that 1 scale engine becomes conventional. It's a different story if your collection is built on MTH, but otherwise, there's gold in them there TIUs...at least for now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a lot of Lionel and MTH locomotives, most all my stuff is command. I also have several spare TIU's, and I can fix then as they develop problems. Ditto for the Legacy systems. I have the Lionel and MTH WiFi boxes on the layout, and I have a spare for each of those. 

_I'm all in on using the dedicated remote vs the app, so I want spares of all this stuff. _ The WiFi stuff is usually for visitors that prefer the app over the remote.


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

When the 2 Premier Pacifics that I have ordered come in (hopefully in a few weeks), I don't see myself making any future purchases of new MTH product. If someone else were making the Pacifics I ordered, I would've bought from them. I think MTH's decision to discontinue a designated remote is very short-sighted.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

superwarp1 said:


> Good reason why I’m having my MTH engines converted to Legacy. Lionel electronics are still in stock, and should be for awhile


Do you have first hand knowledge of this? I'm guessing Lionel has some decent stock of Legacy boards, but they can't run from the parts shortage forever either.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I'm not sure of the O-scale model train market's size. But compared to consumer goods it has to small, a niche market especially for the number two producer . Add to that the development and production costs of lower volume items like the command system and handhelds and it has to be tough to make a good profit on those items.

Believing that to be true, I think it was a mistake for MTH to come out with their DCS system. Had they chosen to be DCC compatible, they could rebranded control systems and electronics from a myriad of producers in the higher volume HO market. And their loco's would be compatible with many aftermarket electronics making them more serviceable with the ability to upgrade ... more valuable in the long term. Not an issue for the original owner that got out but a huge issue for the remaining "company(s) as more modelers shy away from their products thinking they're a dead end.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Millstonemike said:


> I think it was a mistake for MTH to come out with their DCS system. Had they chosen to be DCC compatible, they could rebranded control systems and electronics from a myriad of producers in the higher volume HO market. And their loco's would be compatible with many aftermarket electronics making them more serviceable with the ability to upgrade ... more valuable in the long term.


MTH is DCC compatible with all their stuff from the last ten years. The sticking point is the big dog in O-gauge is not DCC compatible and won't run with DCC stuff on the tracks. Also, in 2000 when the DCS system came out, if they had instead gone for DCC with 3-rail O-gauge, IMO they would have fell flat on their face! One of the big calling cards for DCS was it would run on the same tracks at the same time with TMCC, that still applies.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

doesn't there have to be a switch on the engine for dcc to work?

what about installing dcc and a switch to turn off dcc when running tmcc/legacy?

could you have dcc if you have 4 separate lines?


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## Mooner (Jun 20, 2018)

[QUOTE="gunrunnerjohn, post: 2640895, member: 3481"

_I'm all in on using the dedicated remote vs the app, so I want spares of all this stuff. _ The WiFi stuff is usually for visitors that prefer the app over the remote.
[/QUOTE]

You probably have this right....stack up on the old technology for as many years as you think you have left on this earth. I did the same thing with Sony Betamax. Seriously, happy for you and just as happy with what I did. _<mod edit: removed profanity>_. Thought someone might be interested without getting into _ITALICS._


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My main problem with the phone apps is it's a two-handed affair. The other gripe, especially with the Lionel remote app is the lousy throttle control.


Mooner said:


> [QUOTE="gunrunnerjohn, post: 2640895, member: 3481"
> 
> _I'm all in on using the dedicated remote vs the app, so I want spares of all this stuff. _ The WiFi stuff is usually for visitors that prefer the app over the remote.


Thought someone might be interested without getting into _ITALICS._
[/QUOTE]I guess you don't understand emoticons...


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## Mooner (Jun 20, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My main problem with the phone apps is it's a two-handed affair. The other gripe, especially with the Lionel remote app is the lousy throttle control.
> 
> Thought someone might be interested without getting into _ITALICS._


I guess you don't understand emoticons... 
[/QUOTE]
My bad. With Covid local community college courses cancelled. I'll enroll and get more hip! Sorry for sarcasm...the Betamax reference was pretty good though, yes?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> MTH is DCC compatible with all their stuff from the last ten years. The sticking point is the big dog in O-gauge is not DCC compatible and won't run with DCC stuff on the tracks. Also, in 2000 when the DCS system came out, if they had instead gone for DCC with 3-rail O-gauge, IMO they would have fell flat on their face! One of the big calling cards for DCS was it would run on the same tracks at the same time with TMCC, that still applies.


All that proprietary system work to run two different mfg.'s models on the same track at the same time. I run conventional. So I wouldn't know how important that is, and, what's the size of that market sub-segment that needs that. I'm say that presuming a simple switch can alternate between the two control systems on a single track (loop). Reinventing the wheel had to cost them and the buyer both in terms of dollars and functionality.

On another note, if the newer models can run DCC, wouldn't there be off-the-shelf (i.e., non MTH) replacement solutions for the control system - handhelds, et. al.? Or is the problem modelers have older non-DCC Loco.'s.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

Millstonemike said:


> On another note, if the newer models can run DCC, wouldn't there be off-the-shelf (i.e., non MTH) replacement solutions for the control system - handhelds, et. al.? Or is the problem modelers have older non-DCC Loco.'s.


The older locos, and I think if you have any TMCC/Legacy locos they won’t work either.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

I run mostly Lionel legacy with my cab 1. I refuse to buy the new cab3 and remote for the price they want. I can do anything I want with cab 1 for me. Yes there is a few things that the cab 1 won't work like the whistle steam and steam chest smoke I believe but then I don't used smoke. So no issue for me. Everything I would do with my trains I can do with cab one. I have a couple so I'm set for the future. . I don't want any type of WiFi and have to use the phone. I have used Cab1 since 1995 and it still works. 
As far as mth I will buy no more engines, I have been selling off what I have and in the near future it will be all Lionel legacy.

Dave


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Dave, whistle steam should work with a Cab1. if you don’t see the steam either the switch is in the off position or the smoke pipe has an air bubble in it.

Pete


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks Pete, I don't really use smoke and I didn't think the cab1 would trigger the whistle steam sorry for the confusion.

Dave


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## RotarySirloin (10 mo ago)

I'm a bit concerned that the MTH crew is planning to drop the current app and create a new app to replace the old one. This is what it seemed like from their talk with TrainWorld. I'm really hoping it's just another free update to those that already purchased the premium app. If this crew just implemented the remaining features from the legacy protocol, they would already have an advantage over the Cab 3 and Base 3.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm not holding my breath, for what ever happens. How old is DCS? over twenty now with no major changes, just slight improvements and add ons. Even the app hasn't changed since release, they sure haven't fixed the bugs I keep experiencing with it hence I don't use it anymore. Just a backup in case my remote dies.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

We use DCS and are at the point of connecting a second TIU and transformer, both of which we have along with two spare AIUs. We have 3-4 remotes and also run Legacy with 3 remotes. The layout has @ 35 turnouts and everything works okay BUT we are concerned with the future and what appears to be a lack of depth at MTH.

Has anyone considered changing from DCS to Legacy. And info would be appreciated as we know very little about the Lionel control system. Switching would involve selling or upgrading 10-12 MTH engines and who knows what else.

Thanks for the assistance.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

If the new MTH DCS company doesn't come through and goes out of business, I would expect some third party to make a box that emulates DCS signals operable through the Lionel Base 3 down the road. In this scenario, it's even possible that Lionel would make such an emulator, perhaps licensed from the remnant MTH company. So don't worry, be happy for now.

You can alter PS2 and PS3 locos to TMCC for about $100-200 each (if you do the work yourself) using ERR modules. Cost increases if you want digital sound.

This is a changing market in terms of costs, of course, with everything on the increase. Personally, I'd just keep using the DCS system until it dies or replacements are available. If the replacements don't reach the market, then make the decisions that work best for you.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks. Kinda of what our thoughts have been on locomotives. Handling the turnouts, track power, etc is a big concern and could be expensive. We can always do that with a control board, manual switches Fairly easily.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I just looked at swapping out ERR components in a diesel and the cost is exactly $289.90 to-the-door (from Sunset). So if you're adept at doing that yourself, then $289.90 for each engine is probably the bare minimum. I'm not a steam guy but I presume it only goes up from there. So yeah, I'm just rolling along. We'll see.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

superwarp1 said:


> I'm not holding my breath, for what ever happens. How old is DCS? over twenty now with no major changes, just slight improvements and add ons. Even the app hasn't changed since release, they sure haven't fixed the bugs I keep experiencing with it hence I don't use it anymore. Just a backup in case my remote dies.


I'm not sure what age has got to do with it. TMCC is nearly 30 years old and Legacy (which was really just a rebranding with minor improvements) is over 15. DCC was released in like 1987 so that makes it like 35 years old.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

beachhead2 said:


> I just looked at swapping out ERR components in a diesel and the cost is exactly $289.90 to-the-door (from Sunset). So if you're adept at doing that yourself, then $289.90 for each engine is probably the bare minimum. I'm not a steam guy but I presume it only goes up from there. So yeah, I'm just rolling along. We'll see.


You can usually buy ERR from a dealer and save a few bucks, but the diesel cost is still close to $250 for the ERR Cruise Commander and ERR RailSounds Commander you need for a full upgrade. Also, PS/2 or PS/3 upgrades you'd need a pair of couplers, $10/ea. The good news is, you can probably sell the working PS/2 3V boards or PS/3 boards for at least $100, maybe $50-$75 for the older 5V boards.

Steam will run up the parts cost around $100 for full function with complete smoke control. Right now you can get a premium for the PS/3 steam electronics as they're not available from MTH, and likely won't be for some time.


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## RotarySirloin (10 mo ago)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The good news is, you can probably sell the working PS/2 3V boards or PS/3 boards for at least $100, maybe $50-$75 for the older 5V boards.


Really? I'm interested in this!

It seems like in some cases a Lionchief upgrade seems like a decent choice. Sure it's not command, but at least you'd get some unique control and sound with it, especially some of the later boards. A board from Lionel + universal remote not a bad deal. Though, you'd run into some range issues with the 4.0 boards!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The problem with doing a LC upgrade is you have to make all the cables, that will either take considerable time or expense. With the ERR upgrades, there is clear documentation and minimal custom cables, it's a really simple install for the most part.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

So bottom line "baby" your DCS system, or better yet invest in another DCS system or pieces because soon enough MTH will itself be "vaporware" and everyone will be stuck running conventional or converting their $1500 engine to plain DC motor operation. Aren't I just a ray of sunshine!!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

rrman987 said:


> So bottom line "baby" your DCS system, or better yet invest in another DCS system or pieces because soon enough MTH will itself be "vaporware" and everyone will be stuck running conventional or converting their $1500 engine to plain DC motor operation. Aren't I just a ray of sunshine!!


Does that mean if MTH shut down completely tomorrow all MTH locos equipped with DCS would stop operating under DCS tomorrow ? 

Why convert a completely excellent running MTH DCS loco to a lesser ERR system if there is no reason to ? 

Bill


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Steam will run up the parts cost around $100 for full function with complete smoke control. Right now you can get a premium for the PS/3 steam electronics as they're not available from MTH, and likely won't be for some time.


What do the steam specific boards get you over the diesel ones?


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

seayakbill said:


> Does that mean if MTH shut down completely tomorrow all MTH locos equipped with DCS would stop operating under DCS tomorrow ?
> 
> Why convert a completely excellent running MTH DCS loco to a lesser ERR system if there is no reason to ?
> 
> Bill


No, what I meant is with chip shortages and the fact that specialized chips may be unavailable, maybe in far future your engine or accessory with cease operation but there are no parts for repair. Consider if the TIU fails and some exotic surface mount part is no longer available you now are dead in the water. I am sure GRJ has seen this already in repairs.
Case in point, a special phone I have for hearing impaired suddenly stopped working. Contacted the manufacturer who said they stopped making this model and no repair parts available. So now I have to look for an equivalent. Worst case, engines could be converted to at least work on variable track voltage.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

This will be my process, I am 75 years old. I have 50 plus Lionel TMCC or Legacy locos, and 50 plus MTH PS-2 or PS-3 locos. I started with TMCC when first released so for approx 30 years 2 locos bit the dust. I started with DCS when first released so approx 20 years and 2 locos also have bit the dust. I am pretty sure I will bite the dust before all my locos do so I will not be losing one minute of sleep over everyones the sky is falling theories.

For the last 2 years I have been in my second childhood and purchasing more Postwar than modern locomotives and enjoying the heck out of running these locos that are as old as I am.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

PRR1361 said:


> What do the steam specific boards get you over the diesel ones?


The big difference is for a steam upgrade of the MTH locomotive is you have to manage the smoke unit and provide a chuff switch. I use the Chuff-Generator and the Super-Chuffer II for those functions. With these units, in addition to the smoke unit control functions, you also get a Rule-17 LED headlight and automatic cab light control. Also, the Chuff-Generator provides automatic control of optional ground lights.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

So the diesels boards won't make the smoke unit chuff even with a steam sound/chain file?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

PRR1361 said:


> So the diesels boards won't make the smoke unit chuff even with a steam sound/chain file?


We're talking about TMCC upgrades, not DCS upgrades.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> We're talking about TMCC upgrades, not DCS upgrades.


Oh I thought you were saying the DCS steam boards would fetch extra money.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

He would be taking the DCS boards out and installing the ERR boards. Hence, he would have DCS boards to sell.

Gotta' read the whole conversation.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> He would be taking the DCS boards out and installing the ERR boards. Hence, he would have DCS boards to sell.
> 
> Gotta' read the whole conversation.


Ok, so I followed that part, so thats why I asked why the MTH steam electronics fetch more money. Like, how are they different than the MTH diesel boards?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

PRR1361 said:


> Ok, so I followed that part, so thats why I asked why the MTH steam electronics fetch more money. Like, how are they different than the MTH diesel boards?


Oh, that. Well, the diesel boards were sporadically available from MTH at times, but we haven't seen steam tender boards for well over a year. I'm developing quite a pile of locomotives for repair that are waiting on tender boards. I still have PS/3 diesel boards, but I used my last PS/3 tender board a long time ago.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

Couldn't a PS3 diesel board be used in the boiler and then just send +/- for LED markers, +/- for speaker, and then hot/common (6 wires total) back to the tender?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

PRR1361 said:


> Couldn't a PS3 diesel board be used in the boiler and then just send +/- for LED markers, +/- for speaker, and then hot/common (6 wires total) back to the tender?


Not even close! The PS/3 steam files assume a two-piece setup and the tender board tries to talk to the boiler board. If it doesn't find it, epic fail! There are methods of using the PS/3 diesel board for steam using PS/2 sound files. However, to totally cobble up a steam engine to retrofit the diesel board would run the cost of repair up several hundred dollars, I doubt most folks would be happy with that idea.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Not even close! The PS/3 steam files assume a two-piece setup and the tender board tries to talk to the boiler board. If it doesn't find it, epic fail! There are methods of using the PS/3 diesel board for steam using PS/2 sound files. However, to totally cobble up a steam engine to retrofit the diesel board would run the cost of repair up several hundred dollars, I doubt most folks would be happy with that idea.


I was thinking for something like a retrofit on a non-command engine… like early Sunset/3rd Rail or Weaver and Williams brass, etc.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

PRR1361 said:


> I was thinking for something like a retrofit on a non-command engine… like early Sunset/3rd Rail or Weaver and Williams brass, etc.


I have heard of people doing an upgrade of the Shay with a diesel board and a multi-wire tether, so with the board in the locomotive, it could probably be done. Like I said, it would be a totally custom wiring job, and given the tiny pins in the 1mm pitch diesel board connector, a really fun time building the harnesses.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

PRR1361 said:


> I was thinking for something like a retrofit on a non-command engine… like early Sunset/3rd Rail or Weaver and Williams brass, etc.


You can load a PS3 steam sound file (not the chain file) into a PS3 diesel board without issue. I've done it for fun just to see if it worked and there wasn't a problem.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

lou1985 said:


> You can load a PS3 steam sound file (not the chain file) into a PS3 diesel board without issue. I've done it for fun just to see if it worked and there wasn't a problem.


Correct, you can load the sound file. The chain file selection will probably determine what works, lights, chuffing, etc. I confess, though I have heard of it done, I have never done it myself. I don't know how difficult it would be to find a correct chain file that would work in concert with the sound file to allow all the lights and action to work properly.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Correct, you can load the sound file. The chain file selection will probably determine what works, lights, chuffing, etc. I confess, though I have heard of it done, I have never done it myself. I don't know how difficult it would be to find a correct chain file that would work in concert with the sound file to allow all the lights and action to work properly.


When I did it with a Premier PS3 Alco PA I loaded a Premier PS3 GS4 Northern sound file into it just to see what it would do. It actually chuffed smoke fine and the headlight/reverse light worked correctly, however all the other lighting was wonky and turned on and of depending on direction.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

lou1985 said:


> When I did it with a Premier PS3 Alco PA I loaded a Premier PS3 GS4 Northern sound file into it just to see what it would do. It actually chuffed smoke fine and the headlight/reverse light worked correctly, however all the other lighting was wonky and turned on and of depending on direction.


Kinda' what I would expect. I do know there is some combination of sound and chain files that will work, at least I've been told that. If the issue ever comes up for me, I'll track down the source. 😅 

I would expect the major features would probably work, front and rear lights, smoke, couplers. However, stuff like markers, MARS lights, beacons, firebox flicker, probably would be iffy.

You might have better luck loading the PS32 chain file for steam, the PS32 board is really just a diesel board with a slightly different layout. I believe that's what was done for the Shay board replacement I mentioned.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Kinda' what I would expect. I do know there is some combination of sound and chain files that will work, at least I've been told that. If the issue ever comes up for me, I'll track down the source. 😅
> 
> I would expect the major features would probably work, front and rear lights, smoke, couplers. However, stuff like markers, MARS lights, beacons, firebox flicker, probably would be iffy.
> 
> You might have better luck loading the PS32 chain file for steam, the PS32 board is really just a diesel board with a slightly different layout. I believe that's what was done for the Shay board replacement I mentioned.


The PS32 chain file might make the lighting functions work correctly, but I'd rather try that with a spare PS3 diesel board than one of my locomotives. Not that I think it'll brick it, but I'd rather not run that risk. Unfortunately I don't have any spare PS3 diesel boards, just a couple PS32 boards for some projects I have to finish up.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The experiment was a success and the patient lived! I took a stock diesel PS/3 board and cooked the PS32 steam chain files into it and then loaded a PS/2 steam file. It acted just like a steam engine, lights, couplers, sounds, and smoke.

I even had to load the special chain file for missing chuffs for the PS32 board for one of the sound files. It acted just like a PS32 board as near as I could see. The GS4 strobe worked as it should, I think this is a viable way to go if you have some diesel boards floating around and are good with really tiny 1mm pitch connector pins.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ... and are good with really tiny 1mm pitch connector pins.


For many here, It might easier to splice wires with assembled pigtails. If they're the 1mm JST-SH connectors, pigtails are a few bucks for a half dozen on eBay, et al. Free shipping on "The slow boat from China."


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The experiment was a success and the patient lived! I took a stock diesel PS/3 board and cooked the PS32 steam chain files into it and then loaded a PS/2 steam file. It acted just like a steam engine, lights, couplers, sounds, and smoke.
> 
> I even had to load the special chain file for missing chuffs for the PS32 board for one of the sound files. It acted just like a PS32 board as near as I could see. The GS4 strobe worked as it should, I think this is a viable way to go if you have some diesel boards floating around and are good with really tiny 1mm pitch connector pins.


Did you try a PS3 steam file? I run PS3 steam sound files with the PS32 chain file in PS32 boards in all my steam PS3 upgrades with no issues. I'm curious how the lighting would work. I know the couplers, smoke, front/rear lights will work fine, but I'm curious how all the other lighting behaves.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

This is cool. Maybe a new viable upgrade path for older non-command steam locomotives.

Thanks for the research GRJ!


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

Millstonemike said:


> For many here, It might easier to splice wires with assembled pigtails. If they're the 1mm JST-SH connectors, pigtails are a few bucks for a half dozen on eBay, et al. Free shipping on "The slow boat from China."


They're available on Digikey's website too.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I note that the Z4000 is going to be available for the first time in a long while. Probably a good sign that MTH's remnant company isn't circling the drain as yet.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Millstonemike said:


> For many here, It might easier to splice wires with assembled pigtails. If they're the 1mm JST-SH connectors, pigtails are a few bucks for a half dozen on eBay, et al. Free shipping on "The slow boat from China."


They're not JST connectors, they're JS-1253 Chyao Shiunn connectors. There are many similar pitch connector parts, but subtle variations in the contact design make it mandatory to use the correct pins, especially at these small sizes.


lou1985 said:


> Did you try a PS3 steam file? I run PS3 steam sound files with the PS32 chain file in PS32 boards in all my steam PS3 upgrades with no issues. I'm curious how the lighting would work. I know the couplers, smoke, front/rear lights will work fine, but I'm curious how all the other lighting behaves.


No, but It should work exactly like it would with the PS32 board. Since they take longer to load, and I already spent enough time on the experiment, that is left as an exercise for the student.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

neilblumberg said:


> I note that the Z4000 is going to be available for the first time in a long while. Probably a good sign that MTH's remnant company isn't circling the drain as yet.


and you have a link to this


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

bigdodgetrain said:


> and you have a link to this







__





Scheduled Arrivals Thru December 15, 2022 - Dealer | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS







www.mthtrains.com












and then scroll down


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