# New to Model trains



## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hey all, 
My name is John, Im 30 years old and have decided to start to get into model train forums. The room size that i currently have to work with is 12' x 15' but am going to start with a smaller 4' x 8' layout then will add some turnouts to be able to expand along the walls later. 

I have a couple of questions about DCC systems. I was wondering if it is imperative that i wire up every track piece to the system or can i skip a few tracks? I have ordered my tracks and they are on the way. I do have a layout in mind for the track but it will be a figure out what i really want for scenery as i go. 
Here are a couple other questions i have as well,

1. Will 2" of foam be enough to make a decent river with a bridge over it?
2. When I go to secure the track to the foam, how hard is it to pull up old track and then add risers to make tunnels and what not?
3. Im looking at this command station.. http://www.digitrax.com/products/starter-sets/zepx/ Anyone use this and if so, do you have your turnouts wired to this or do you have them on 3 way momentary switches... If they are on the momentary switches, do the turnouts take ac or dc voltage and how would you go about powering them from another source besides the command station?

lots of questions and ive been googling and looking for answers without any good results and the guy at the model shop is an idiot.

Thanks,

John


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

Most DCC systems do not power anything but the track. Other things are usually powered by separate power sources. However, there are decoders that can run other things besides locos and they may or may not be powered by the DCC track power. An example is a Digitrax DS52 Dual Stationary Decoder for Snap Switches or Slow Motion Machines.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Hi John and welcome to the wide world of model railroading.
I noted your comment about starting with a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I would recommend starting out with the bench layout along the wall and use the plywood for the road bed. Reason for: a table in the center of the room takes up more room but limits the radii of your curves. You can't get much of a backdrop on the table were a wall is limitless. You get longer runs of track on the bench layout vs short run and tight curves on the table. Your industries can have longer sidings on a bench layout vs short stubby sidings on the table. Cost wise, the bench layout isn't that much more in wood but provides tons more potential for a layout. Wiring is easier on the bench layout vs having to crawl under the table. You can vary the depth of the bench layout from the wall out to 3 feet or as far as you want to reach.
If you go with the bench layout, consider rounding your corners so it isn't such a deep reach back there. You will have much more room for your work bench/table were ya build your models. Power cords aren't laying on the floor with a bench layout.
As far as power to your tracks, a buss wire is recommended with power drops going up to the track through the benchwork. Once the wood has settled in and stopped expanding and contracting, you can solder some of your track joints. For the long run, don't rely on the track joiners for power connectors. Corrosion builds up and you will have dead track sections.
For turnouts, with a bench layout you can use the longer turnouts, i.e. #8 or #10 instead of the short #6 or #4. The longer turnout looks so much better.
Track wise, consider code 83. About the same price as code 100 and it looks so much better. Code 100 is a hold over from the days of large flange wheels on the more toy like models. Larger flanges were necessary to keep the trains on the track when they were run at scale 200mph. Today's models run at a more conservative scale speed of 70 - 80mph and they look better doing that.
Most of all, have fun in the hobby. Get out and meet other modelers through club activity or at the local trains shows.
Here is a link to a video of my layout. Been building on this one for 4 years now.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Welcome John*



littlejohn2458 said:


> Hey all,
> My name is John, Im 30 years old and have decided to start to get into model train forums. The room size that i currently have to work with is 12' x 15' but am going to start with a smaller 4' x 8' layout then will add some turnouts to be able to expand along the walls later.
> 
> I have a couple of questions about DCC systems. I was wondering if it is imperative that i wire up every track piece to the system or can i skip a few tracks? I have ordered my tracks and they are on the way. I do have a layout in mind for the track but it will be a figure out what i really want for scenery as i go.
> ...


 John; 
Welcome to the forum! I will try to answer some of your questions.
1) Yes. 2" of foam is plenty. If you measure that in HO scale feet,(about 1/8"= a scale foot)
then 2" translates top 16 feet of depth.

2) Normally there would be some sort of roadbed between the track and the foam. Cork roadbed is very popular. The cork can be glued to the foam with white glue, like Elmer's glue,
or with latex caulk. The caulk can also be used to fasten the track to the cork, but use small dabs of caulk spaced a foot or two apart. That will hold the track well enough to add ballast.(the crushed rock that supports railroad track). The ballast can be fastened with white glue diluted with water. If you need to take the track up later, spray it with water, let the water soak the ballast about 30 Min. then use a putty knife to gently pry the track up.

3) Several questions! First, yes the Digitrax starter DCC system would be a good way to go.
Another good brand is NCE, and there are others as well. All send the same standardized signals through the rails. This means that the Digitrax controller can operate an NCE or other brand of decoder. As for controlling turnouts, some modelers do use their DCC systems to operate stationary decoders, which then operate a turnout motor(like Tortoise brand) or the coils that are mounted to the side of some turnouts. This gets very expensive, very fast, so many of us use a separate power supply and some form of electrical switch to operate our turnouts. What type of switch, and weather you use AC or DC, depends on what type of switch machine/motor you are using. Slow speed motors, like tortoise, require DC. Twin coil machines, like those on Atlas "snap switch" turnouts can use either DC or AC. The separate power supply can be an old power pack's accessory terminals(AC) or on some packs fixed DC. Folks have also used doorbell transformers(with a rectifier, if you need DC) or those little "wall wart" power units that recharge cell phones. Another popular way of controlling turnouts is to use Caboose Industries ground throws. These are strictly mechanical. No electricity is needed to operate them. They are also relatively cheap, and duplicate the way many real railroads throw their turnouts.


Hope that helps you;

Traction Fan

PS. I agree with the preceding post, by D&J railroad, that a shelf layout would be better than a 4'x8' one.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hi, John, and welcome to the worlds greatest hobby!

You've gotten good advice so far, so I'll try not to repeat, except to further the recommendation that you think outside the 4x8 box. Sure, it's convenient, but there's just so much more you can do when not limited by that geometry.

As far as your river goes, your modeled water will only be about 1/8" deep. The illusion of depth is created by clever painting (you can delve into that more later). So, if you want your railroad to span a 120' deep chasm on a trestle, then you'll need more terrain relief than 2" of foam will give you. Likewise if you're simulating a major river crossing with enough clearance for big freighters. Otherwise, 2" is fine. That's all I have.

Any more questions? Let 'em rip!


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

Thank you all so much for the help. I had the 4x8 already built and was starting to take it apart. The wifey got a little upset when I told her I was gonna make shelving around the room. (Happy wife happy life I guess). That being said she said I can put it along the short wall in the back of the room but there is a closet there where she doesn't want it obstructed... this left me with a 5 for shelf layout. She will come around but her thing was I haven't even started anything and doesn't want me to dump all my money into something I will end up not using.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

littlejohn2458 said:


> Thank you all so much for the help. I had the 4x8 already built and was starting to take it apart. The wifey got a little upset when I told her I was gonna make shelving around the room. (Happy wife happy life I guess). That being said she said I can put it along the short wall in the back of the room but there is a closet there where she doesn't want it obstructed... this left me with a 5 for shelf layout. She will come around but her thing was I haven't even started anything and doesn't want me to dump all my money into something I will end up not using.


Dang, you didn't say you hadn't obtained right of way authorization yet.


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

She doesn't care about the 4x8 but I don't know what she is thinking when I say a wall unit. She will come around. I'll have to update her craft room if I want this full room 

I'm just waiting for track that I ordered to come the I will get pics up.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Yeah, it's always a good idea to have SWMBO's (She Who Must Be Obeyed) buy in before you start a major project. Mine is like yours, apparently: always objects strongly when the idea is first broached, then warms to it later,

BTW, she may not want you dumping all your money into something you won't use; what about dumping all your money into something you ARE using. That kind of thing happens in this hobby.

It's also okay do build a "proof of concept" 4x8, to make sure you really are into the hobby, before you embark on the "real" layout. Many of us, me included, do just that. My experiment ended up lasting almost 5 years before I tore it down and started over.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Shelf rairoad*



littlejohn2458 said:


> Thank you all so much for the help. I had the 4x8 already built and was starting to take it apart. The wifey got a little upset when I told her I was gonna make shelving around the room. (Happy wife happy life I guess). That being said she said I can put it along the short wall in the back of the room but there is a closet there where she doesn't want it obstructed... this left me with a 5 for shelf layout. She will come around but her thing was I haven't even started anything and doesn't want me to dump all my money into something I will end up not using.


 One possible, "wife persuader" would be a shelf that can be used for something besides your railroad. I have a "book shelf railroad", based on an old Model Railroader Magazine article. It has the railroad on one level and book(or whatever) storage on top. Since it is supported by the wall, there are no legs. Therefore the space below the railroad is available too. My 4' long sections are 16" deep, but I model in N scale. The original bookshelf railroad, in the article, was built in Ho scale. The only difference was depth, he may have used 18"-24" , I don't remember.
You will need wider sections at the ends for loops that will let your trains double back, and run continuously. This is optional. Many railroads, including virtually all real railroads, do not loop, but run from one point to another. In the hobby, such a layout is called "point to point". 
Now some points to consider, before you commit to a bookshelf design.

1) As already mentioned, like anything else a married man does, or even thinks about doing, it requires wifely approval in advance. You might find this easier to obtain, if you start drawing to scale(1/8th" to a foot worked well for me) on paper, and once you have decided on the final shape make a scale model of the room, with the railroad in it, to show her, how much space it will/will not take up. The model need not be elaborate. A cardboard box with railroad, and furniture, represented by shapes cut from index cards, and scotch taped together will work.
2) You say you are just starting out. I would definitely not classify my layout, or any bookshelf one, as a simple beginner's layout. It requires some moderate woodworking skill;
a whole bunch of construction time, and a commitment to one particular shape.(*sort of)

On the other hand, you will need approval, woodworking skills, construction time, and commitment to a shape(like 4'x8') for any railroad you build.
Sectional railroads, like mine, also have an additional advantage. *They can, with some work, change shape. I had to do this when we moved to a different city/house. Because of its sectional design, My railroad was able to change to the new shaped space with minimal destruction. This may be true with an island type 4'x8' table, provided the new home has a space to put it. Most "permanent" layouts, however, end up being destroyed when the owner has to move. He then has to start over at square one, at the new house.

Think it over. Below are some photos of parts of my layout.

Traction Fan


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

traction fan said:


> One possible, "wife persuader" would be a shelf that can be used for something besides your railroad. I have a "book shelf railroad", based on an old Model Railroader Magazine article. It has the railroad on one level and book(or whatever) storage on top. Since it is supported by the wall, there are no legs. Therefore the space below the railroad is available too. My 4' long sections are 16" deep, but I model in N scale. The original bookshelf railroad, in the article, was built in Ho scale. The only difference was depth, he may have used 18"-24" , I don't remember.
> You will need wider sections at the ends for loops that will let your trains double back, and run continuously. This is optional. Many railroads, including virtually all real railroads, do not loop, but run from one point to another. In the hobby, such a layout is called "point to point".
> Now some points to consider, before you commit to a bookshelf design.
> 
> ...


I like the bridges they are really cool looking. 

Also I just had the wrench thrown in with the whole thing. It's disappointing but she told me to wait as she didn't realize how much it will cost. I advised her it was a hobby and it's not something that I was gonna go out and throw thousands right away but slowly over time. she was mad that the track I got cost $200.00. Thank for yall time. 
John


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

$200 ? Geez, wait till she finds out ya bought a Broadway Limited Big Boy.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, I warned ya 'bout that, didn't I?

Sounds like a tookie mistake to me. Now you need to spend thst much on dinner, flowers, or some such.

Don't throw in the towel just yet, but I'd sure discuss it with her before going any further.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

traction fan said:


> 1) As already mentioned, like anything else a married man does, or even thinks about doing, it requires wifely approval in advance.
> 
> View attachment 127353



I suppose I got lucky, in fact I KNOW I got lucky when I married my wife, we designed the house and had it built with the understanding that the attic was mine for trains, pre-approvial in advance. 

The other point is that when a RR bridge crosses another set of tracks it usually uses a through truss or through girder to provide extra clearance, "just in case".


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

littlejohn2458 said:


> I like the bridges they are really cool looking.
> 
> Also I just had the wrench thrown in with the whole thing. It's disappointing but she told me to wait as she didn't realize how much it will cost. I advised her it was a hobby and it's not something that I was gonna go out and throw thousands right away but slowly over time. she was mad that the track I got cost $200.00. Thank for yall time.
> John



If there are no children, I would seriously think about a new wife. She doesn't sound like a keeper, or does she have you "whipped" already. I knew someone with a wife like that, but he had kids.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

D&J Railroad said:


> $200 ? Geez, wait till she finds out ya bought a Broadway Limited Big Boy.


Or even an AHM Big Boy. 

Make sure every engine you buy is the same color, and hope that she can't tell the difference, then just tell her that the "New Engine" you just bought, is one that you had before, but only have as many out and running as she thinks you have.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Traction fan.. Those bridges look great. Mind if I ask how big your lay out is?


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Go to 7:20 where the married guy is talking about his own marriage, he seems to have a realistic view of marriage. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_7qS-Y5iKA


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## mjrfd99 (Jan 5, 2016)

When we were starting out I told my wife a girlfriend would cost me more. She hasn't complained since LOL
She's happy I'm here and not on "those" sites too


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## RH1 (Jan 4, 2016)

traction fan said:


> One possible, "wife persuader" would be a shelf that can be used for something besides your railroad. I have a "book shelf railroad", based on an old Model Railroader Magazine article. It has the railroad on one level and book(or whatever) storage on top. Since it is supported by the wall, there are no legs. Therefore the space below the railroad is available too.


The trick, as I have found, is to plan ahead... Of course, I had a few pieces of HO equipment, and a pile of old brass track from when I was a kid. When my son was old enough to start having an interest in trains - and I had three daughters younger than him - I suggested to my wife that I would fix up the large basement area as a playroom. That was an easy sell. I then built shelves all around the room from particle board I got from somewhere for free. Those shelves were for kids toys. Again, an easy sell.

Now, what would we do with the top of the shelves? Setting up the trains I already had only made sense! Over the next few years it grew - but no complaints as I was spending hours in the playroom with the kids. They even ran the trains once in a while.

Eventually, we moved, and it all got packed up. Now, 12 years later, we decided to try to clean up our basement. One of my daughters commented at how many boxes we had labelled "train Stuff", and that the only way we could get rid of the boxes would be if I set them up again. The rest of the family agreed... I had no choice but to start building a layout.

Again, a shelf layout, with "family" storage area below. Planning is everything.


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

Good news. I got the go ahead. I am going to slowly add As i go. After a lot of research and looking at various layouts, I'm gonna do a refinery and then an oil field. I have the 4x8 already built and will be adding on a yard in the future. I have another question though. I posted in the beginner section on how to power turnouts, but I guess I'm confused on what to get as I don't really want a whole dc system just to have an ac feed for my turnouts. Can someone show me a link as to what the others were talking about for an electric powersupply? I am very electrically inclined it comes to wiring and troubleshooting. (I'm a marine mechanic and do a lot of DC electrical)


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Powering turnout motors is very simple.

If you want to use AC you must use 
the twin coil motors by Atlas or Peco for example.

If you have a typical HO or N power pack it will
have a pair of accessories terminals. They provide
about 14 volts AC, Ideal for the twin coil units.

You can also use a wall wart for your source AC.
Here is a typical one but there are many available
at flea markets for less.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...qmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_2aa9rjaf4d_b

You will find 3 terminals on each turnout motor.
Typically, the middle one is COMMON to which you
attach a black wire which goes direct to one
of the accessories terminals. You can connect the
commons of all turnouts together. 

Then one turnout terminal
will be for STRAIGHT points. Usually we use a green wire
that goes to your control panel. It connect to
one side of a Normally open push button switch.
The other side of the switch goes to the 2nd
accessories terminal. 

The third turnout terminal is for DIVERTING points.
We use a red wire that goes to another normally open
push button on the panel. The buttons other tab can
be connected to the inp;ut tab of button for the Straight. 

You follow that circuit for each turnout.

It is recommended that you use a capacitor discharge
unit to feed your panel. It protects those twin coils
from burnout due to stuck button or one pushed too long.

If you use Tortoise stall motor turnout you must
have about 14 volts DC. Only 2 wires go from each
turnout to a double pole double throw switch
on your control panel. The turnout wire connects
to the middle tabs. The DC source power goes to
tabs on one end of the switch, then you flip the
DC source and connect that to the other end tabs.
That lets you send continuous DC to the motor, right
wire positive with switch one way, right wire negative
with switch the other way.

Don


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

ok. makes sense now.

Thank you!


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

https://youtu.be/etPv9TI3e5s

Here is my layout so far. Just a video. I know I'll probably get criticized bit just keep in mind I'm a beginner. 

After I build out around the edges l, I'm going to put some clear plexiglass on the edges so if I derail the train won't fall to the floor.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Very nice start.

If I may make a suggestion...you have a nice passing siding on the
left side of the layout but then use it to feed a crossover to the inside
oval. My thought is to keep the passing siding free of turnouts and
make the crossover from outer to inner oval either side of
the siding. I also would make the passing siding a bit longer, you
seem to have the room. You want it long enough to hold a typical
train. 

Keep us posted on your progress.

Don


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

DonR said:


> Very nice start.
> 
> If I may make a suggestion...you have a nice passing siding on the
> left side of the layout but then use it to feed a crossover to the inside
> ...


It's fully you say that. I already soldered all that togethe . How hard is it to remove the solder from tracks? I got the roadbed down and the track tacked down. I also got a train car and it's smooth rolling over all the tracc so that is good. Next I'm going to look into getting a wall wart, I have box of them somewhere I think one from an old router I have will work well. Also, on dcc layouts, how important is it to have blocks in this track? It's not huge and all I do have soldered together so far is just st the turnouts and the crossing. I know I'll be adding power feeder wires at the track connectors but do I need it to every single one? 

Thanks again in afvance. I'll get pics of the track bed and track here soon.


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

Sorry I'm using my phone I'll try to proof read before I post


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## redman88 (Nov 25, 2015)

littlejohn2458 said:


> It's fully you say that. I already soldered all that togethe . How hard is it to remove the solder from tracks? I got the roadbed down and the track tacked down. I also got a train car and it's smooth rolling over all the tracc so that is good. Next I'm going to look into getting a wall wart, I have box of them somewhere I think one from an old router I have will work well. Also, on dcc layouts, how important is it to have blocks in this track? It's not huge and all I do have soldered together so far is just st the turnouts and the crossing. I know I'll be adding power feeder wires at the track connectors but do I need it to every single one?
> 
> Thanks again in afvance. I'll get pics of the track bed and track here soon.


your router walwart is most likely going to be 9v's not enough for anything other then LED lights, and only a few of them as it is also going to be 1 amp or less.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You going to do a refinery?
How about a siding going into the plant to push some tankers in?

I see a nice big garage that would house a nice big RR. :thumbsup:


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

https://youtu.be/Sbi_hPtc79E

Track bed laid and explanation of the crossing.


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## littlejohn2458 (Dec 31, 2015)

That would be sewwt ed. I know down by my house at the real refinery the loading tank is actually on an incline and then the just release the cars to the stockyard by gravity. It's pretty cool to watch. Only issue is its on the side of a highway.


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