# Received the 322 WOW!



## Defender (9 mo ago)

Got the 322, WOW, I think it is in incredible shape, Cleaned the e unit and it took off. Put a bulb in the front, but smoke doesn't work, added oil and sprayed some WD-40. So have to replace, I guess. My dilemma is I have never taken down a 322 and where I thought should be 2 screws there isn't. Any advice on how to take her apart? I




















































am posting pics so hopefully the area in question about screws missing shows. Looks like small rivets???


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

That is a nice loco.The very first thing you do during dis-assembly is to remove the brass smoke-stack inside the chimney. I then cut the wires going to the boiler face, or you can un-solder them. Remove the linkages, but take a picture of both sides, then remove the cow-catcher and steam chest. Unscrew the jack panel and you're almost there. There are 2 screws holding the chassis to the shell, unscrew them.. Now, the chassis will be able to slide forward and disengage those little locking tabs/rear motor mounts. Sometimes the chassis will give you a little trouble but it will come out. That's the reason you first remove the brass smoke stack, it will be next to impossible to get the chassis out of the shell with it in the smoke unit.Usually, if the unit has the red plastic tube, you'll break it if you don't remove it first.


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

flyernut said:


> That is a nice loco.The very first thing you do during dis-assembly is to remove the brass smoke-stack inside the chimney. I then cut the wires going to the boiler face, or you can un-solder them. Remove the linkages, but take a picture of both sides, then remove the cow-catcher and steam chest. Unscrew the jack panel and you're almost there. There are 2 screws holding the chassis to the shell, unscrew them.. Now, the chassis will be able to slide forward and disengage those little locking tabs/rear motor mounts. Sometimes the chassis will give you a little trouble but it will come out. That's the reason you first remove the brass smoke stack, it will be next to impossible to get the chassis out of the shell with it in the smoke unit.Usually, if the unit has the red plastic tube, you'll break it if you don't remove it first.


Thank you so much, I_ would have broken probably alot of it had you not given me a heads up on this. THANK YOU!!!_


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Looks like a nice Hudson Defender. Looks complete. Once you learn to take this one apart you will be able to take any of them apart. flyernut is so correct in saying take that brass smoke stack out. It screws in. Use a flat screwdriver to remove. Notice how the motor mount plates are holding the rear of chassis. Loosen them some. Your new one has what I look for, nice white whitewalls. I bought me a 312AC couple nights ago. Might be here tomorrow. Needs a little work, but has great cab numbers and graphics. Paint is good not perfect. I only had one
K5 locomotive so got me another. Have fun with your new one. Do not force anything. If having trouble just ask here.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Nice addition, the Hudson looks great. It is a 1948 model. Some early 1948 engines have slotted brushes, later ones have the updated shoulder style brushes. The slotted brushes work well but are a little trickier to service and replace.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I saw a brass weight coupler and thought it might be a 1948. My other K5 is a 1948. Has the slotted
brushes. My only engine with those brushes.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> Looks like a nice Hudson Defender. Looks complete. Once you learn to take this one apart you will be able to take any of them apart. flyernut is so correct in saying take that brass smoke stack out. It screws in. Use a flat screwdriver to remove. Notice how the motor mount plates are holding the rear of chassis. Loosen them some. Your new one has what I look for, nice white whitewalls. I bought me a 312AC couple nights ago. Might be here tomorrow. Needs a little work, but has great cab numbers and graphics. Paint is good not perfect. I only had one
> K5 locomotive so got me another. Have fun with your new one. Do not force anything. If having trouble just ask here.


Some engines have those rear motor mounts staked in, I believe the plastic ones are screwed on.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I just checked one of my Hudsons at random. It is either a very late 1948 or early 1949. Tender has brass coupler weight and AFL on the tender but stamped 322AC on the cab. Unfortunately the date stamp is not visible with the chassis in the engine.
In any event, the rear motor mounts are staked, no screws.


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

Well, I got it apart with many pictures taken. I really had a hard time with the smoke unit. Broke three screws. The two that hold it in and one on the bottom of the smoke unit. Was able to get the remaining pieces out with a needle nose vise grip. It was entirely coated with what I assume was old smoke oil. I do not think this was ever opened up previously. I was able to clean it up with spray carburetor cleaner, uffda. As far as the brushes. The black piece that holds them in, if I remove it does everything fly???? Does it have to be re-aligned to re-install it??? Doesn't the armature come out then too? You guys talked about different brushes. I can't find a date on the inside of the loco. Sorry about all the question, but it is such a nice piece I don't want to cause damage or more pocketbook expense. I did get the new wick in, and it works great. Now need to tackle the brushes and armature. Thanks all..


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

If you have coil springs pushing down on the brushes, they should be the newer style, shoulder brushes. If you have the springs that look like safety pins, they're the older style, and take slotted style brushes.. That black thing is called the "brush bracket assembly", and yes, if you don't put your finger over the brass clips, everything will fly across the room, (brush springs). Smoke oil will turn into a very nice glue after all the years. You were right in using carb cleaner to loosen the screws, I use CRC tuner cleaner, and have never had a screw I couldn't remove. Be sure to check all the white insulators on the wheels to see if they are loose. If so, CA,(super glue), is the correct fix. I'm just about finished with your 312, just working on the tender shell, got it yesterday. Still have to test drive everything.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have a Northern with the staked motor mounts. I was running it one day and it started to waddle down the track.
I was concerned but found a motor mount beside the track. How do you repair a staked motor mount. My stake broke
off clean at the top of stake hole.

Train Tender has those little screws for smoke plates. I have broke one or two of them.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> I have a Northern with the staked motor mounts. I was running it one day and it started to waddle down the track.
> I was concerned but found a motor mount beside the track. How do you repair a staked motor mount. My stake broke
> off clean at the top of stake hole.
> 
> Train Tender has those little screws for smoke plates. I have broke one or two of them.


You can grind off the remaining piece of material, and drill and tap for a 4-40 screw.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Good info. Thats what I was going to do. Thanks.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Defender said:


> Well, I got it apart with many pictures taken. I really had a hard time with the smoke unit. Broke three screws. The two that hold it in and one on the bottom of the smoke unit. Was able to get the remaining pieces out with a needle nose vise grip. It was entirely coated with what I assume was old smoke oil. I do not think this was ever opened up previously. I was able to clean it up with spray carburetor cleaner, uffda. As far as the brushes. The black piece that holds them in, if I remove it does everything fly???? Does it have to be re-aligned to re-install it??? Doesn't the armature come out then too? You guys talked about different brushes. I can't find a date on the inside of the loco. Sorry about all the question, but it is such a nice piece I don't want to cause damage or more pocketbook expense. I did get the new wick in, and it works great. Now need to tackle the brushes and armature. Thanks all..


Because you're having a small amount of trouble with PM's, (private messages), I'll give you the dope on your engine here...Mailed out this morning @10:28am, tracking # 9505515183512147364968, enjoy.. This is a nice engine, I ran it over 1200', forward and backwards.


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!! Yes I am not good at this navigation stuff. WORSE YET, I lost two of the screws for my 322 putting it back together for the linkages on the side of the loco. I hope I can find some somewhere. Thanks so Much Loren, I appreciate it a lot.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Defender said:


> THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!! Yes I am not good at this navigation stuff. WORSE YET, I lost two of the screws for my 322 putting it back together for the linkages on the side of the loco. I hope I can find some somewhere. Thanks so Much Loren, I appreciate it a lot.


Ah, I wish I had known before I shipped out you engine!! I have many spares..What ones do you need?? The small ones holding the linkages on, or the shoulder screws that hold the connecting rod to the wheels??


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

Thanks Flyernut. I was able to find some one Ebay, I ordered 4 of each. figured with my shakes, will need them all eventually. I do have a problem with the 342AC. The bracket one the back that holds the tender is loose and bent. It isn't held in place with screws but looks like studs of some sorts, dang


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Defender said:


> Thanks Flyernut. I was able to find some one Ebay, I ordered 4 of each. figured with my shakes, will need them all eventually. I do have a problem with the 342AC. The bracket one the back that holds the tender is loose and bent. It isn't held in place with screws but looks like studs of some sorts, dang


I bought mine from Jeff Kane for around .50 cents apiece. They're cheaper in bulk so the cost is even lower. You can JB Weld the bracket back on, or drill and tap a hole for a 4-40 screw. I've done both ways, but drilling and tapping is the preferred way. Just grind off the protruding piece of stud, and drill away.


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

Well after further looking, the bracket on the back of the 342AC is bent and also the left housing of the engineer's cab. It obviously has been dropped. I was able to straighten it to my satisfaction, so will leave it. It runs, but the e unit is all green. Sprayed with contact cleaner but still crap there enough to see the fingers aren't lined up right. Tried to take the e unit off and they soldered the wires from underneath and there is no wiggle room, they are VERY short. All four wires are old cloth wound as well as the protective sheath, so can't tell which wire goes where. Should I just scrap the old harness and re-wire it with a new plug for the loco? I am kind of an originality type so hate to just cut and go. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for one of these units? Plus, how are the wires hooked to the plug that goes to the loco? Mine looks like just a touch of solder on the end. Thanks all.
Flyernut, am so looking forward to getting mu 312 back. YEAH!!! PS: I found the damn screws. I put all my parts in small magnetic dishes from Harbor Freight and close the tops with painters tape so I mark them to where the pieces go and I found out the screws are not magnetic and they stuck to the tape. Embarrassing to the max.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Wiring diagrams are in color at www.rfgco.com, and in black and white at www.portlines.com. Repro cloth covered wiring harnesses are available in either precut or in bulk lengths.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AmFlyer said:


> Wiring diagrams are in color at www.rfgco.com, and in black and white at www.portlines.com. Repro cloth covered wiring harnesses are available in either precut or in bulk lengths.


I've been using the PortLines wiring diagrams for years. For me, the diagrams from RFG are confusing.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Defender said:


> Well after further looking, the bracket on the back of the 342AC is bent and also the left housing of the engineer's cab. It obviously has been dropped. I was able to straighten it to my satisfaction, so will leave it. It runs, but the e unit is all green. Sprayed with contact cleaner but still crap there enough to see the fingers aren't lined up right. Tried to take the e unit off and they soldered the wires from underneath and there is no wiggle room, they are VERY short. All four wires are old cloth wound as well as the protective sheath, so can't tell which wire goes where. Should I just scrap the old harness and re-wire it with a new plug for the loco? I am kind of an originality type so hate to just cut and go. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for one of these units? Plus, how are the wires hooked to the plug that goes to the loco? Mine looks like just a touch of solder on the end. Thanks all.
> Flyernut, am so looking forward to getting mu 312 back. YEAH!!! PS: I found the damn screws. I put all my parts in small magnetic dishes from Harbor Freight and close the tops with painters tape so I mark them to where the pieces go and I found out the screws are not magnetic and they stuck to the tape. Embarrassing to the max.


Like Tom says, you can buy the pre-maid wiring harnesses on ebay, or you can make your own. They do sell the 4 wire, cloth-covered harness in bulk, I buy 12' at a time as I do quite a few locos. It's also cheaper that way. When I work on the male jack plugs, I heat up the metal ends until the solder melts, and then pull out the left-over wire. I do this on all 4 posts. I then re-visit the male ends, heat up the metal prongs, and fill them with solder.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Defender said:


> Well after further looking, the bracket on the back of the 342AC is bent and also the left housing of the engineer's cab. It obviously has been dropped. I was able to straighten it to my satisfaction, so will leave it. It runs, but the e unit is all green. Sprayed with contact cleaner but still crap there enough to see the fingers aren't lined up right. Tried to take the e unit off and they soldered the wires from underneath and there is no wiggle room, they are VERY short. All four wires are old cloth wound as well as the protective sheath, so can't tell which wire goes where. Should I just scrap the old harness and re-wire it with a new plug for the loco? I am kind of an originality type so hate to just cut and go. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for one of these units? Plus, how are the wires hooked to the plug that goes to the loco? Mine looks like just a touch of solder on the end. Thanks all.
> Flyernut, am so looking forward to getting mu 312 back. YEAH!!! PS: I found the damn screws. I put all my parts in small magnetic dishes from Harbor Freight and close the tops with painters tape so I mark them to where the pieces go and I found out the screws are not magnetic and they stuck to the tape. Embarrassing to the max.


I've straighten out many bent cab corners, cow catchers, and the like using either a plumbers torch, or one of those small, hand held torches that are refillable with butane. The plumbers torches work quicker..


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

Ok, I have to be without a doubt the dumbest person on earth, but I cannot find wiring diagrams on portlines.com. Maybe it is my brouser?


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## Tyrell54 (Jun 14, 2021)

Defender said:


> Ok, I have to be without a doubt the dumbest person on earth, but I cannot find wiring diagrams on portlines.com. Maybe it is my brouser?


Click on repair clinics on the homepage, they are in there


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Defender said:


> Ok, I have to be without a doubt the dumbest person on earth, but I cannot find wiring diagrams on portlines.com. Maybe it is my brouser?


Not to worry, I also couldn't find them at first.


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## Defender (9 mo ago)

Thanks everyone, I never thought of looking there and then to find it where I did. I suppose I should follow the 4 pin drawing since the 342AC is not directly listed. Question about oil. I have a 1oz. bottle of oil bought online called Liberty oil products. They said it was for S scale, but I can't get the needle down to where I need it between the wheels and chassis on almost everything I have. Does anyone have a thinner needle so there is not such a mess because oil is everywhere? I see Portlines.com has 2 listed. Any thoughts on which one? I have an order for them ready tomorrow, could add that before then.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have an assortment pack of HobELube oils and greases. I use their white lithium grease. For an oil I am using Labelle 107, which is a medium oil. I find the light oil too thin to be long term effective. Medium is similar to the old 3 in One oil. I also have Bachmann Conductive oil for axles and wipers that conduct electricity. I use Challenger smoke fluid but have not tried their lubricants. the Labelle applicator works fine.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The oil containers with that long thin needle is a must for oiling steamer axles.

I think my bottle of oil is Liberty also but it came with the long thin metal needle.
The oil is automotive synthetic oil. Works good for me. I also use white lithium
grease. Lionel is recommending white lithium for their trains.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I use Hob-b-lube oil in the needle oiler, a medium oil which I like. Because I'm a pack-rat and save everything, I have 3 needle oilers here at home, you're welcome to one..however.. I don't know if it would be cost-effective for you to pay for the shipping, and then have to pay for some oil.


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

AmFlyer said:


> I have an assortment pack of HobELube oils and greases. I use their white lithium grease. For an oil I am using Labelle 107, which is a medium oil. I find the light oil too thin to be long term effective. Medium is similar to the old 3 in One oil. I also have Bachmann Conductive oil for axles and wipers that conduct electricity. I use Challenger smoke fluid but have not tried their lubricants. the Labelle applicator works fine.
> 
> View attachment 583715


Doesn't Labelle advertise the 107 oil can be used on electrical points, even to the point of applying it directly to commutators? Does anyone here have experience with this?


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Labelle states in their advertising it is ok to use 107 directly on motor bearings and brushes. Its two big advantages are first, 107 is a medium weight oil, good for postwar AF engines, and second, it is plastic safe. No problem using it on motor and truck bearings. I recommend against using any lubricant on the motor brushes. First, none is necessary, just keep the commutator face clean and polished. A medium non-conductive oil will cause the motor to spin faster for a while. In the long run it causes a conductive gunk to build up between the commutator segments. Without oil, just carbon dust accumulates in the commutator gaps, it is easy to clean out. With oil, the carbon and oil combine into a conductive gunk that fills in the gaps. The only thing I put on the commutator face is electrical contact spray cleaner.
Here is another oil I use, but sparingly and carefully. This is an ultra light conductive oil. It can be used on the brass axle wipers on the Gilbert steam engines to improve performance. Used incorrectly this can cause short circuits and is not easy to clean out.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

flyernut said:


> If you have coil springs pushing down on the brushes, they should be the newer style, shoulder brushes. If you have the springs that look like safety pins, they're the older style, and take slotted style brushes.. That black thing is called the "brush bracket assembly", and yes, if you don't put your finger over the brass clips, everything will fly across the room, (brush springs). Smoke oil will turn into a very nice glue after all the years. You were right in using carb cleaner to loosen the screws, I use CRC tuner cleaner, and have never had a screw I couldn't remove. Be sure to check all the white insulators on the wheels to see if they are loose. If so, CA,(super glue), is the correct fix. I'm just about finished with your 312, just working on the tender shell, got it yesterday. Still have to test drive everything.


Hate those old style safety pin style brush springs even though the shoulder slotted brushes and springs can be tricky if you are not paying attention. Don't ask how I know. That is why I keep lots of spare parts on hand.

Kenny


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