# 259e Help, Please.



## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

I've been reading as much of the prewar posts as possible. This is my first post, and I've added pics. of my recent Ebay purchase. Can she be saved?








































There was only one pic. on the Ebay listing to go by. Its not as good as I thought it looked, but oh well live and learn. This is my first tinplate. 
Thanks in advance for any help or encouraging words
--Dan


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Your screen width is out of site????
If you can pull wheels and change the center pickup than have at it!


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Hi T-man, thanks for replying. I was hoping you would.
Sorry about the screen width, I realized afterwards what I
did wrong loading the pics. Can I change that? So tthe pics 
displayed on top of each other?
In order to change the pick-ups, does the side plates
have to be pressed apart? Also, can the dents be taken out by hand
or should I just leave them? I would like to get it stripped and
give it a Rustoleum paint job.
--Dan


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Hi Dan!
On screen width just hit the enter key after the picture.
I use Photobucket for some pictures.That way nonmembers can see it otherwise they have to sign in. To me a 600 pixel width is large enough and I go smaller. I use the 600 for detail, rarely.

I mentionsed those two because they are the hardest. Out of three center plates I have installed two have broken tabs. For wheels you need a puller and then press them back in the right orientation for the rods to work.

When I did my 259e I had done all of that work before. I had done motor work before and repainted come coaches. Here, I am the third member to do a 259e. I just did it with more detail and real time as I went.

I will say those parts are a pain to strip. The two tone is not easy.You have to paint each part separate, then join them. I found that to be impossible to do without scratching paint.

Considering the engine was inexpensive. It had bad wheels and e unit but it did run and had no rods or trailing wheels. Did you notice it took me 9 months?

The first thing I did was to make sure the motor ran.
Are both rollers there? I see one in a picture.

From the first look at yours. The wheels are misaligned and your missing the front and hopefully both rollers are there.
It can be saved. If you take your time and view it as a course of learning experience and the cost with be more than the value of the engine.
With those words of wisdom good luck!


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Well said T-man. I'm definitely going to treat this as a learning project
and it's ok if it's less than perfect. I've always wanted a prewar train. 
Theres just something to be said about an object, with so many small moving parts, thats 70-80 yrs. old. 

I think I'm gonna start a new thread wth properly sized photos. Also, I realized I left out many parts, front trucks, rear trucks, boiler front etc....
and i have a tender 1689t, and 3 cars 804 807 and 831.
--Dan


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The last thing I want to do is lead you astray. You can resubmit the pictures for smaller ones .I shrink them down using windows paint. I think you are going to find the 800 cars too large for the 259e. I use those for the 249e which is larger. 

After checking the old catalogs I did learn that the four wheel 8oo cars were sold with the 259e.I am more farmiliar wit the large 8 wheel 800 cars. ALso the 2000 series cars were sold with the later model 259e in 39 using the Scout type tender.

You can start another thread to show your progress and use this one for suggestions and long winded discussions . I like that idea. I find it difficult to discuss something with out prior knowledge, so I guess you surprised me with "Look what I bought!" 

You will find the wheel nuts at 17/32 inch and the rear engine nut at 1/4 inch.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Tin refresher: tabs and dents*

Tabs.... be kind to them. I use a very small precision screwdriver ( eye glass size) or a hobby knife to start lifting tabs. The I go to a small screwdriver or small pliers. At this time I do not bend them all the way but pry the piece away . The less movement the better with tabs.

Dents. well a smalll ball peen hammer is ok with the flat of a vise. I have ground puches and chisels round to get those curve areas back again. Especially domes the round pin works great. I used the same ones for the rivet of the center plate on my 259e.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

daniel828 said:


> Well said T-man. I'm definitely going to treat this as a learning project
> and it's ok if it's less than perfect. I've always wanted a prewar train.
> Theres just something to be said about an object, with so many small moving parts, thats 70-80 yrs. old.
> 
> ...


You got more parts? that is good.
You have a tender and cars too?
Sweet
Show them to us?

There are more here looking at the post then the T man.

check out TJ's threads too
here is one,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3748

he has more beautiful paint jobs search his threads.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

I hear ya loud and clear big ed, I like to look at pics too.I will be posting the "set" soon. I have them all staged waiting for their photo to be taken, but my 16 month old boy takes presidence After he goes to bed I'll get the rest of the pics up. 
Is there a way to tell the exact year of my 259e? Or is it more of a guesstimate?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

daniel828 said:


> I hear ya loud and clear big ed, I like to look at pics too.I will be posting the "set" soon. I have them all staged waiting for their photo to be taken, but my 16 month old boy takes presidence After he goes to bed I'll get the rest of the pics up.
> Is there a way to tell the exact year of my 259e? Or is it more of a guesstimate?



did you click the link I posted above? 
I think TJ or T man might know, might be the wheels?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Black wheel drivers are later so are the chrome domes. Red spokes and copper were earlier. So it's between 1934 and 38.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks for the dates T-man. Here are a few more pics. Lets see if I got my sizing right.








My disfunctional new family.








Yes T-man, both rollers are here but they are bent and tweaked. 
More pics. of the cars to come.
--Dan


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Good, the pics look to be the proper size. Heres more.








Front and rear, and front boiler cover. The rear truck axle looks to be too long or the wheels are too close to each other? Or thats how they are supposed to look? This is my first prewar, Im new at this, I have alot of questions.








Again, are the wheels supposed to have this much slop? Should they fit tighter to the rail?(close up of the drivers)


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Good shape*

I looked at the 1936 catalog and saw the same cars there but they were listed as 600 series. You said yours were 800 which are earlier 32-34 and four wheels not eight.

It is good to see that you have most or all the parts. I think the slop is ok and the rollers are best if left alone. 

The 800 did not go with the box tender but with the one I have a 259t. Still I think it is a good find.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

I will take your advice ,T-man, about that pickup ***'y. Ive been studying it and it looks like a difficult replacement.
The cars.








The 807








The 804








The 813








The tender.
Maybe I'll have to be on the look out for a 249e to go with these?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is a box tender like a Scout. The 249 takes one with a checker pattern on top. Plus it has rear handrails.
WHen igot the 249e it came with a box tender. I did get the right one but I don't have a picture at hand. I will have to search for it.


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

daniel828 said:


> Should they fit tighter to the rail?(close up of the drivers)


No, because then it would derail on corners...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

the cars look in good shape.:thumbsup:

I like them....tanker especially :thumbsup:

I wonder if they were the original logs?
they look more like dowels?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*The Track Slop Question*



> Front and rear, and front boiler cover. The rear truck axle looks to be too long or the wheels are too close to each other? Or thats how they are supposed to look? This is my first prewar, Im new at this, I have alot of questions


The answer is in the gears. They need to be lined up so the slack in the axle has to be minimal to keep the gear contact.









This axle has very little play.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

You know, Big Ed, I was thinking the same thing about the logs!! 

Two of the cars are in good shape, the paint on the frames (tank and log car) is still shiney. The tank itself is a little rough, the domes are shiney but dented. The brass bits are tarnished as well. I think I'm just going to clean up the plated pieces, the couplers, and wheels. I'm toying with the idea of leaving the original "patina" look on the engine and tender and just focusing on having the engine and cars mechanically sound and run well. I've been so indecisive lately, blame it on the cabin fever I'm suffering from because of the snow we've had here in NJ. And besides I can't paint anything now until the weather breaks, anyway.

Tomorrow I'm going to buy some Lionel O track from the LHS. I have an idea for my ceiling layout, so I'm gonna start on that.

Thanks for the input on the axle/wheel issues Boston&Maine and T-man.

What should I use to clean the E-unit and motor with? Electronics spay of some sort?


--Dan


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have never tried a contact spray. If you use the plastic tip and keep it away from the coil it sounds good. BE careful not to bend the finger contacts. I have cleaned it with an eraser and Q tip, just the drum.

I agree on the patina look. Normally I only restore when rust is an issue. You can wait and decide. Try to get it working first. You may like the "rat look".
That was a good haul. Are the cars all four wheels? I can't tell from the picture.

That spray is what I needed for the Marx e unit. You couldn't get at it unless it was dismantled.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Did you dip the Q-tip in any kind of cleaner or something? What about the armature? And, the gears should be "greased"? or "oiled"?

While I'm at it, and have your attention there T-man. Let me give you a quick back story. I haven't had my train stuff out in a long time. everything was stored at my parents house, when they moved to Fla. somethings got tossed accicdently, track mostly and some old R.C. stuff. The only piece of track I had to test my 259e was rusty O-27 de-coupler segment. When i powered it up the only thing that worked was the light. It wanted to move forward and it kinda did with a little help from me pushing it.Probably just needs good track and some cleaning/rust removal?
Probably should have started my post with this question. haha.

Oh, by the way all of the cars are indeed four wheel units. The tender is eight wheel. This "haul" as you call it (good description) set me back less than $100 bucks from e-bay with shipping. Not to brag, I'm just letting readers know that there are good deals, I think.

Thanks
--Dan


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> I wonder if they were the original logs?
> they look more like dowels?


Well, the current "logs" that come with log dumpers look like dowels too.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Daniel,

Just back from a Christmas break, catching up on threads. Great to see another 259 project in the works. I had lots of fun (and learned a lot) with my 259E restoration ... essentially the same version / vintage as yours. Big Ed gave the link to my project thread in Post #8, above.

As for thoughts on your loco ...

At first glance, it appears that you have most parts... a good thing. Where needed, repro parts are readily available for this loco ... Jeff Kane at the Train Tender (www.ttender.com) is a great source.

T-Man mentions the care required with the tinplate tabs. Your loco cab is separated badly. Are the tabs all there ... both for the boiler shell, and for the frame? Maybe post some pics of that area.

I had just a quick read of all the comments above, but have you had a chance to see if the motor is showing signs of life? Maybe some pics of the motor with the shell removed?

Forum member Reckers has posted some nice tips about removing dents with a range of sizes of ball peen hammers, using some thick leather as a backing / working surface.

I did a full strip / repaint on my loco ... Easy Off oven cleaner for the main strip, followed by lots of cleanup/detailing with a Dremel stainless steel wire brush. Rustoleum primer and paint on individual (untabbed) pieces. All doable ... nothing to complicated. I mention a few words about the part reassembly sequence in my project thread.

Great to have you onboard here. Keep us posted, ask questions, and have fun!

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It won't run away o track. The q tip had goo gone, paint thinner heck I used alcohol too and even ATF car fluid. A small eraser is just fine.
To lube you don't want a squeak so oil is fine for now but get rid of all the dirt and dust. Wipe the brush off, a fine drag on cardboard just enough to wipe the surface. Show a picture of the armature. try an eraser to start and with wires from the transformer try a bench test. one terminal to the frame, one to a brush. A jumper wire from the other brush to the hot terminal on the e unit. It should work. The hot terminal is on the side and has the feed wire from the center rail attached to it.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Hi TJ, welcome back from break. I was wondering why you hadn't replied, now I know.

T-man, I tried your bench test. I connected a wire from my my transformer to one brush and the other wire to the frame. The motor started to spin forwards the transformer was on a little bit, so ai advanved and the she spun faster(nice!). But, the e-unit wasn't jumped out of the circuit. When I put a wire from the other brush to the e-unit, the motor stopped. I pulled the e-unit and cycled the drum by hand and I got nuetral and reverse, without the jumper from the brush to the e-unit. Any ideas??
--Dan


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

EXCELLLANT! That means the eunit works TOO! That is good news. Or at least the electrical connections are.
Try taking the lead from the brush to the bottom center roller and the other to the frame.

When you do test it the lever must touch the rivet for the coil to work.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dan,

Just to make sure, the e-unit plunger is gravity-dependent (to drop back down with power-down). Make sure your bench-test is done with the motor (and e-unit) in an upright position.

Do you see the e-unit plunger (inside the solenoid) rise when you apply power to the center-rail contact and the motor frame ground?

TJ


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks for the quick replies, guys!! TJ, I did have the motor upside down to do the testing. I was thinking that was the problem.
Don't have time right now.I'm going to New Years dinner with the family now, I'll post later. Happy New Years everyone!!!
--Dan


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Well, I got her running.Transformer jumped to frame, and jumped to center roller. E-unit cycled thru, forward, neut., and reverse. All I need to do now is clean her up, buy one side rod, and a headlight bezel. 

I also have a problem to fix. One of the drive wheels (the one without the gear on it) is loose on the axle. I can almost slide it off by hand, but the last few millimeters it sticks fast. So, when the motor is running the rotation causes the wheel to try and travel off the axle. Which in turn makes the wheel with the gear lose conact with the other gears. I was thinking of a small amount of marine tex (I think thats what its called). A set of new wheels costs 40 bucks. And I'm not even sure if its the wheel bore thats too large or if the axle is worn. 
--Dan


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you can get enough glue into the area to hold. 
Is the gear part of the wheel or a different metal and pressed on?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I've used a drop or two of Zap-A-Gap CA glue to tighten a couple of drive wheels on my little 1681's. It's holding OK, though I can't say I'm pulling much with those little locos.

You might also try a drop of LockTite threadlocker.

Worth a shot, maybe?

TJ


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

Pull the wheel all the way off. Put it down flat on a hard surface. Take a small ballpeen hammer (ball end), rounded punch, or the like, and set it in the axle hole. Take another hammer and give it a sharp whack or two. Turn the wheel over and repeat. With any luck, you will have created enough of a lip around the edge of the hole to hold the wheel on the axle.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Now you are talking, using a hammer! Just to add to the options. I would take a cold chisel and mar the axle lengthwise. The tolerance is close. So a wheel tap or glue will work. 
Just thinking about the wheel tap. The outer rim sometimes does not touch the axle. The inside is critical. Remember the axle has to pass the inside rim.
If you mar the axle you can leave the end free to get the axle started in the wheel. The you can file down a taper if it won't go in.
The downside is you have to be careful not to mare the bushing section. THe other driver will have to come off too to feed the axle shaft from the other end into the frame

SECOND Thought. Use a vise grip, it is wide enough and keep a file handy.


One idea leads to another.

Looking back to my bad wheels. The owner grounded the axles square and used something like fiberglass to file the void.

For a new driver you can check the part number to a Scout . I don't have your kind of wheels/drivers to compare.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Not one mention of epoxy?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My favorite concoction is JB Weld for little issues like this.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

I've been busy the last couple of days installing my liitle ceiling layout.
I'm going to try loading a video of it running the just the motor unit out of my 259.
Here it goes, fingers crossed.




Sweet, it worked


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Daniel,

Looks great! How many individual pieces of plywood make up the oval "deck"? If more than one, how to you joined the butt-joints?

Thanks,

TJ


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks for the compliments TJ. That vid. was for you:thumbsup:

The deck is comprised of four pieces.Two straights and two curves.
I bought two 2x4 3/4 sheets of oak plywood from Lowes. They are about 11 bucks each. And, each sheet yielded one curve and one straight. The faces of the deck are high grade so I might stain them and paint the hardware black. Not sure yet. 


I used Stanley "T" brackets.They serve a dual purpose to join the sections and act as ears where the threaded rod bolts to. The other end of the threaded rod bolts to the beams via side beam supports used to normally support pipes. I thought it would be an easy layout to install but the house is 100 years old and nothing is straight, level, or plumb. So, I just eyeballed the levelness. It seems to work well. 

My order from Olsens arrived so I'm anxoius to get back to repairing the engine.
--Dan


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the details / explanations re: the deck ... smart thinking.

Have fun with the Olsens bits!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I recommend The Train Tender if you're looking for parts, great guy.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks for the recommendation Gunrunner. This is my first prewar piece, so I've never ordered parts before. 
I will try Train Tender next time. It seems I'm in the market for a new e-unit as mine is sluggish and no amount of oil will loosen it up. Probably a weak field?
--Dan


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Rather than oil, try something like electronic contact cleaner to remove all the sticky stuff, especially in the solenoid coil. I don't oil those units.


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## daniel828 (Dec 13, 2010)

Thats exactly it John, it's the sticky stuff in there!! It's making the plunger on the solenoid to move slowly, and erraticly.The drum spins nicely, so i know it's not that, but one of the teeth is more worn than the others. Sometimes when that one tooth is line up the solenoid misses it, but I can live with it.I just cycle the direction button a couple of times and it eventually catches.
--Dan


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use contact cleaner spray on solenoids in E-Units and switches, it works great for flushing the oil and grease out, and it even cleans the contacts! . I think I'd clean up the E-unit before I start shopping for a new one. You can also buy a new drum for the E-unit, but T-Man will tell you, you need 27 fingers to put it in.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dan, etc.,

Jeff Kane at the Train Tender is a stand-up guy. Great parts source, in my opinion.

I've dripped a few drops of GooGone into the solenoid plunger of e-units to help free them up ... works nicely to degunk. I blotted up any excess with cotton / q-tips afterwards.

T-Man offered a good tip the other day about using Mod Podge to add some protective clearcoat to the old/brittle paper on the e-units coil windings. I've never tried that, but it's on my list.

I griped about needing 27 fingers in one of my other threads, though I've done a few drum replacements now, and am kinda getting the hang of it. It is doable, for anyone with a bit of patience, some good lighting, good close-up eyesight, and a psychiatrist on retainer!

Actually, getting the drum in/out is easy ... getting the little fiber plates with the contact fingers in and properly positioned (while being careful about the wire soldered on to the contacts) takes a little care.

Cheers!

TJ


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