# river questions



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

Is there a general guide line as to how deep i need to make my river or ponds?

Is 1 1/2 too little to make room for river? I didnt think so but i want to be sure before i start carving rivers and such into my layout? 
Im guessing if the river or a body of water will be going under the tracks it should probably be deeper then 1 1/2 to fit a bridge under the tracks?

I do have foam down under my roadbed but its only 1 1/2 inches thick
If i need to go deeper that shouldnt be a problem i can just cut out where i want my river to go, if i have to cut through the foam and plywood, no biggy, i could just box it in with some wood.

Basically im just trying to figure out what i need to do to get a bridge and a river scene on my layout, it should be fun 

Btw- this is ho scale if this matters


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Actually the river is close to zero in depth. Some black paint, brown on the edges and 1/4 inch of acrylic pond. It's the deco on the banks.

Maybe this thread will help.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Exactly what T-man said. Your foam will be dictating the "top of water" level. To get the depth in water you get progressively darker/lighter with paint in the riverbed. Once you put the clear Envirotex (or whatever) over the top, the colors underneath will give it depth.


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

See now i thought i had to have a bottom layer that would be like a base for the water and bridge piers then maybe have around 1 1/2-2 inches or so of foam above this to give the riverbanks sufficient height for a river crossing


----------



## dablaze (Apr 17, 2012)

Deeper banks and shallower water is often very prototypical and cool. Lots of people want more water, but I like the less is more, maybe time to take a photo trip near some bridges.

Craig


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

All depends. I've got one area that will be a deep gorge (about 80 scale feet.) but the "water" itself will only be about 1/8" deep in the bottom of the gorge, when you look at it though - it will look deeper.

Sometimes a small concrete culvert allows enough waterflow, othertimes you need a large bridge - it all depends on what you've got room for and what you're envisioning. Just remember that the foam will dictate the top of the water and the overall river width (that's where you'll pour your water material) Then build up the banks as high as you want.

I plan on putting actual rocks, etc in the riverbed and make the Envirotex "flow" around them with eddys and wakes, etc to show flow.


----------



## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Mine is flat...just some paint and gloss coat...



















I've never been happy with any one product or technique and so, simply settled for the one with the best results from as little fuss as possible.


----------



## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey shaygetz nice clean job on that water I must say one of the best I've seen! Jim


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

shay very nice job.. ive always been impressed with your layout. It looks like you have 3-4 inches from the base of your water to the top of track


----------



## sawgunner (Mar 3, 2012)

Awesome job on the river shaygetz!! 

when i do my rivers i will be using sand and other things of different colors and textures to form my river bed. It will also come in handy if you plan on doing dry river beds. best stuff i can think of to use and best part is it's free and right out side!


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

Do you guys have any good ideas for doing a curved bridge? Im guessing it will have to look like concrete or plate girder style for it to look like a real curved bridge and not (toy like). Im modeling modern day so a trestle will not work for me. And of course they dont sell curved bridges only trestle type bridges i can find. 

I remember tankist had a similar problem on his layout with 2 curved track areas that required bridges. Does anyone know if he worked his problem out?


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

The Micro engineering bridges are pretty versatile and can be built down to a curvature of 24" radius. It's a tall bent viaduct type bridge, but you could do something similar with a plate girder bridge.










You basically make a template of the shape you want, then make the sections and miter them to have nice corners. The track would then install on top of the bridge supports and curve smoothly. Curved bridges are actually built with numerous small straight sections. Too expensive/difficult to make curved girders accurately.

If there is interest I'll do a detailed thread on building this kit into a curved bridge. Half of it will be straight and the other half curved, with bents varying from 1 to 3 stories.

Steel bridges like this replaced old wooden trestles to span deep gorges/rivers.


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

awesome scott!

How much does that kit cost, sounds like im buying one of those.

Heck yeah make a detailed thread build please, im sure im not the only one that has or will run into this situation.

So your making half straight and the other half curved on your layout? get cracking  i cant wait to see some pictures


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

It was about $50 for the kit. They have them in a couple different tower designs (light or heavy-weight....the HW towers are 4 beams where the LW are 2 beams as pictured) I found mine at modeltrainstuff.com

Here's the lightweight - 7 - 30' spans and 6 towers

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Micro-Engineering-HO-75-550-Tall-Steel-Viaduct-210-p/mec-75-550.htm

Here's the heavyweight - I believe it is (3) 50' spans and (4) 30' spans with (2) large 4-beam towers and (2) lightweight 2-beam bents.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Micro-Engineering-HO-75-515-Tall-Steel-Viaduct-210-p/mec-75-515.htm

I plan on making a really big bridge with the heavyweight kit some day on the large layout expansion (probably will buy 2 kits and do a height addition to a 4th story - maybe a 500-600ft long bridge.) The bridge will go around most of a 5' diameter peninsula end.


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

lol, unbelievable scott, only you  

So these are the only bridge kits that can be curved slightly? id hate to get one of these and only use half of the kit, my river might only be 10 inches wide if that


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You can modify just about anything if you want to. These are specifically designed to made either straight or curves and come with some pretty detailed instructions on how to build it in different ways.

You can always use the other pieces for other bridges. With the kit I bought you've got 7 spans and 6 bents. That can easily be 2 different bridges (at least). The bents can be built 1, 2 or 3-stories tall.


----------



## powersteamguy1790 (Mar 26, 2012)

I use Future Floor Wax and Modge Podge to create rivers, lakes and moving water. This is a very easy and inexpensive technique.


----------



## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

Powersteam guy that is great too, wow love to see your whole layout, nice job on everything. This is by far the best site I've ever joined information that I just don't get any place else, nice job all of ya's. Jim


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

You got that right rangerover!

I actually just realized there is a wooden trestle type bridge 15 mins from my housr and they still run heavy freight across it daily. I will take pictures of it on my way home from work. This bridge isnt curved but its still cool to look at. I was trying to avoid wooden bridges because i thought they are pretty much a dying breed. There can not be too many wooden bridges still alive today.


----------



## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

joed2323 said:


> You got that right rangerover!
> 
> I actually just realized there is a wooden trestle type bridge 15 mins from my housr and they still run heavy freight across it daily. I will take pictures of it on my way home from work. This bridge isnt curved but its still cool to look at. I was trying to avoid wooden bridges because i thought they are pretty much a dying breed. There can not be too many wooden bridges still alive today.


Oh boy I live in West Virginia and just gonna mention 2 wooden bridges out of well,
a great number of them still in use. One is the covered wooden bridge going into the city of Phillipi. It's the main road to the city but used by auto traffic. Built before the Civil War, used by both Union and Confederate soldiers and near it is a site of one of the earliest battles of the Civil War. I always think of that era when I cross it, the same bridge they used we still use today. Another is a railroad bridge made from timber in the City of Clarksburg, those big heavy trains still cross it today for a distance of about 75 yards, it's huge with wooden timers down to the river and the top is open and the track on the wooden timbers under it. I got to get some pics of that when a train is going over it, makes ya wonder! Jim


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

ok i dont know if this is considered a trestle type bridge? what is it experts?


















































I found another one crossing a river where i always take my kids to play, just never realized it  I will walk out on the bridge and take some pictures, just gotta listen for that train coming, haha


----------



## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Looks like a hybrid to me. Over all it is a beam bridge but it is using steel and wood. The style would be open deck girder using wood trestles. 

My thoughts at least


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

That's a cool bridge. You should try to model that road crossing on your layout.


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

i thought so too, but i didnt want to be like hey its this kind of bridge when i dont even know 

I kinda like the way it looks, its got some old and some new mixed together, maybe i should try and model this


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2012)

I think you mean how deep your ravine should be...???...that would depend on the depth of your base (foam, wood, whatever). The fake water can be 1/4" or less, depending on what technique you use. I have some material from Hancock Fabrics that makes great water, when layered with a shiny mesh. It is less than 1m thick. Most HO scale boats are waterline models, which means that they do not penetrate the surface, rather, they simply sit on top of the water.


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

ok then, with what was just suggested about the waterline, and the depth of the ravine, what would happen if i want to put a bridge on a part of my layout where i have a straight section and all i have is woodland scenics roadbed over plywood?

Obviously i would have to cut out a section of plywood where i would want my river/ravine to go underneath my track. On other parts of my layout i used 1 1/2 foam over plywood, where it would require a curved bridge if i put in a river over the foam section, but i do have a nice straight section where it would probably be a better spot for a river because it could seperate a town scene and a yard scene. But at this location its just plywood, so how far down would you guys suggest i cut out a section and kind of make like a square box of some sort so i can have river banks and what not? I couldnt make this out of 2 inch blue foam could I? the stuff i use to make water, would it penetrate through the foam?


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Rangerover said:


> Powersteam guy that is great too, wow love to see your whole layout, nice job on everything. This is by far the best site I've ever joined information that I just don't get any place else, nice job all of ya's. Jim



Ditto powersteam nice work.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2012)

This is a portable traveling HO layout that a church in St Jo, MO takes to shows. The boat is about 15" long. It is docked at a freight pier. This is one of my favorite uses of water; not over or under, but alongside.









Here is the opposite corner of the same rig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L0LBtv0DdY

Them Missouri Baptists bring a big train...


----------



## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

joed2323 said:


> ok then, with what was just suggested about the waterline, and the depth of the ravine, what would happen if i want to put a bridge on a part of my layout where i have a straight section and all i have is woodland scenics roadbed over plywood?
> 
> Obviously i would have to cut out a section of plywood where i would want my river/ravine to go underneath my track. On other parts of my layout i used 1 1/2 foam over plywood, where it would require a curved bridge if i put in a river over the foam section, but i do have a nice straight section where it would probably be a better spot for a river because it could seperate a town scene and a yard scene. But at this location its just plywood, so how far down would you guys suggest i cut out a section and kind of make like a square box of some sort so i can have river banks and what not? I couldnt make this out of 2 inch blue foam could I? the stuff i use to make water, would it penetrate through the foam?


Joe I can think of a couple of things for plywood. 
1) just chisel out a trench between a 1/4 and 3/8 and shape it with plaster cloth to about 1/8 or 1/4.
2) build an embankment for the track to give a little clearance over the stream.
3) build up the surrounding area with plaster cloth and build a pond with a dike running into a swallow steam carved into the ply wood. 
Foam is porous and most likely will leak through depending on how thin your water mixture is. Plaster cloth sealed with plaster or spackle will make a water tight stream/ pond.


----------



## joed2323 (Oct 17, 2010)

thank you xnats... either way if i was going to make my river over foam or wood and i will cover it with plaster cloth before i pour my water


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

joed2323 said:


> ok then, with what was just suggested about the waterline, and the depth of the ravine, what would happen if i want to put a bridge on a part of my layout where i have a straight section and all i have is woodland scenics roadbed over plywood?
> 
> Obviously i would have to cut out a section of plywood where i would want my river/ravine to go underneath my track. On other parts of my layout i used 1 1/2 foam over plywood, where it would require a curved bridge if i put in a river over the foam section, but i do have a nice straight section where it would probably be a better spot for a river because it could seperate a town scene and a yard scene. But at this location its just plywood, so how far down would you guys suggest i cut out a section and kind of make like a square box of some sort so i can have river banks and what not? I couldnt make this out of 2 inch blue foam could I? the stuff i use to make water, would it penetrate through the foam?


You could easily turn that small section of plywood into a plate style bridge with a ballasted deck. 

Just pick up some plate bridge girders (the side pieces) I know you can pick them up as loads pretty cheap. Cut the plywood down to the width of the bridge and glue the girders along each side of the plywood to make the sides of the bridge. Snug some abutments under the ends of the plates and you're good to go.

If you want to get real fancy, put bridge ties across that section of track (tighter spacing) and add a Code 83 or 70 inner guard rail.


----------



## powersteamguy1790 (Mar 26, 2012)

big ed said:


> Ditto powersteam nice work.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Thanks Big Ed


----------

