# Sidings question



## rva1945 (Feb 11, 2016)

Hi guys:

Still designing my layout. It is basically a 5x2.5-meter dogbone. I'm using SCARM software, and I took these two snapshots of different designs relative to the sidings.

I dont' know if any is correct, I mean, if they have to do with the real thing.

I'd appreciate any help, regards.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So, I think I recall from other threads that your philosophy is that, while you understand that you can do whatever you want on your own layout, you would prefer to follow the prototype practice as much as possible.

So with that in mind, let's take a step back and look at this. You are making the rookie mistake of laying track wherever it fits. Real railroads don't do that. Land is expensive (you have to buy it and pay tax on it), and track is expensive to lay and maintain. Real railroads lay track to connect things to be able to haul cargos and make money, and to enable them to sort, organize, and maintain equipment. No track arrangment is unprototypical (wrong) if it meets those criteria. Likewise, no track arrangement can be "right" if it serves no purpose.

What you have drawn are examples of the latter. Why are those tracks there? They look kind of like a loading track arrangement, but there is no room for anything to be loaded. Storage tracks or sorting tracks would be parallel (to save space) and almost always have access to both ends.

Return loops as you have included are necessarily artificial, as real trains don't run around in circles. Since they are a necessary evil, try to disguise them by building an industry with it's associated siding in the center, or incorporate a prominent terrain feature, or even a partial backdrop (or a combination).

Assuming you're trying to build a yard area on the right, separate them from the mainline (use structures to reinforce the "not really right next to one another" idea), make them parallel both to the main and each other, and tie them back in to the main at the top. This will give you a track configuration that makes sense operationally and provides a greater illusion of reality.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

You have a nice long main run, but any yard tracks need to at least come off of a passing track.
Also you might include Areas where the track will separate somewhat to allow some scenic elements that will add visual interest.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You have a basic single track mainline. However, you don't
have a single passing siding, you should have 3. That lack would prevent 2 trains running on the same track one clockwise, the other counterclockwise as is possible with DCC.

I would suggest that you also plan for more sidings on the
top and left end of your layout so that you can do more
switching which can be fun and at times challenging.

The return loop on the upper left appears to be a nice
radius maybe 22", but the return loop, lower right, seems to be
a much tighter radius. Can you increase that to also
be a minimum of 22". A tight radius limits the size and
type of locos you can run.

Don


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

When you have industrial sidings, you would usually need a staging track. The road switchers will only deliver a cut of cars to an industrial area such as you have laid out there. They will leave the cut of cars on a staging track and an industrial switcher will move the empty cars to the appropriate loading area and the loaded cars back out to the staging track.
In the picture below, the track on the left is the staging track for the three industries that will be in this industrial area. The turnout at the bottom of the picture leads to the mainline, track on the left, and the track on the right leads to the industrial switcher parking area and access to the closest siding.
Once the scenery is finished over the gaping hole on the right, the industries will be planted and business will be open.
The staging track can be used by nearby industries as well. In the second picture of the same area with the mountain applied, you can see an industrial siding on the far left of the mainline near the bottom of the picture. An industrial switcher can move a couple of cars from this siding to the staging track of the larger industrial area. This is all worked out in the operating sessions.


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## rva1945 (Feb 11, 2016)

I understand your advices, you're right. Those returning loops don't look like the real thing. But appart from playing with operations, I want the trains to run in "auto mode". If instead I add two terminus stations at both ends, I don't think it will be easy to program the uncouplings, changing locos, and so.

The attached pictures show an example of a return loop behind what look like a yard (is it called a yard?) I saw a couple of years ago in an exhibition, I could do something like that.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

What they are saying about a staging track is to be able to get a train off of the
main. The idea is to never block the main. You can call it a staging track or a siding
and then your yard tracks come off of it not the main. With DCC you could have a train running on the main while you use another loco to move cars around the yard tracks. You can do it with DC, just easier with DCC.
Either to break a train up or to put one together. I would make more sidings on the left side that run to some sort of a industry. I would also do away with that loop on the left side and just have the main run near the edge all the way around. Leave room for buildings or something between track and the edge. It will look better than having track right a the edge. Hope some of this makes sense.


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## rva1945 (Feb 11, 2016)

As for the radius, I will use 18" and stick to that. 4 axles locos will run fine (in fact my EMD9 can turn in 14", though not recommended).

I didn't spend too much time with SCARM so the drawings are aproximate, that's the reason why some turns look so tight.

Regards,
R.


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## rva1945 (Feb 11, 2016)

Excuse me guys if I make stupid questions. I'm learning on a daily basis. Or, I should say by the minute!

In case of a siding, do I need 4 switches, as seen in the attachment?


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Rva, 6 axle will generally handle 18", I've got one that'll stand 15". We run our trains nearly constantly and don't have trouble.
There is an "ideal radius" which is as large a curve as you can design in. 
Then there is the" forced radius" which is very often 18" for many of us.
I'd rather see ANYONE, ANYTIME, running trains. Whatever it takes to get it done!


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I know I'm not seeing the whole picture of your layout, but what little of it you have depicted presents a twinned track, probably a main line, and two opposing crossovers. The real trains often prefer this arrangement and not the gee-whiz arrangement of a double-crossover such as that $60 monstrosity that Walthers/Shinohara makes.

A real siding only requires two things...access, whether double-ended with two turnouts or single access as a stub, and that it be a few inches lower than the main so that no rolling stock parked on it will be inclined (ha ha) to roll toward the frog and foul the main line.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

mopac said:


> What they are saying about a staging track is to be able to get a train off of the
> main. The idea is to never block the main. You can call it a staging track or a siding
> and then your yard tracks come off of it not the main. With DCC you could have a train running on the main while you use another loco to move cars around the yard tracks. You can do it with DC, just easier with DCC.
> Either to break a train up or to put one together. I would make more sidings on the left side that run to some sort of a industry. I would also do away with that loop on the left side and just have the main run near the edge all the way around. Leave room for buildings or something between track and the edge. It will look better than having track right a the edge. Hope some of this makes sense.


Actually the staging track is just to hold the cut of cars for the industries. I run trains of 50 cars or more and a cut that would fit in here is only about 9 or 10. I haven't measured yet. Instead of the whole train blocking the main while the loco is switching cars into the individual loading spots, he can just drop the whole string for those industries and pick up the outbound cars then move on to the next industrial complex. The local switcher will do the time consuming spotting of cars. That way, you have two assignments going at the same time for four operators. An engineer and a brakeman for each loco. Engineer drives the loco and the brakeman throws the turnouts and figures out the moves.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

rva1945 said:


> I understand your advices, you're right. Those returning loops don't look like the real thing. But appart from playing with operations, I want the trains to run in "auto mode". If instead I add two terminus stations at both ends, I don't think it will be easy to program the uncouplings, changing locos, and so.
> 
> The attached pictures show an example of a return loop behind what look like a yard (is it called a yard?) I saw a couple of years ago in an exhibition, I could do something like that.


I'm not saying "don't use return loops." For most of us, they are a necessary evil if you're not going to go completely around the room. I have them on my own (planned) layout. The point is to try to disguise them in some way.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mesenteria said:


> ...not the gee-whiz arrangement of a double-crossover such as that $60 monstrosity that Walthers/Shinohara makes.


Not to get off topic, but try $100: https://www.walthers.com/code-83-nickel-silver-dcc-friendly-6-turnout-double-crossover


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

rva1945 said:


> Excuse me guys if I make stupid questions. I'm learning on a daily basis. Or, I should say by the minute!
> 
> In case of a siding, do I need 4 switches, as seen in the attachment?


A simple siding, such as one intended to drop cuts of cars or allow passing, would just be two turnouts, and cover the area only between S3 and S4 (which would be curved track, not turnouts). You can take an additional spur line off of this section to serve a specific industry.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

rva

Back to the discussion of curve radius. While it's true
some locos will be happy on an 18" radius, some of
the longer cars will not. A typical North American
rail passenger car is 85' long. If you tried us use
these cars on 18" curves the ends will seriously
protrude out from the rails and may pull each other
off the track. Some of the current special freight
cars are near that long also.

You posted pics and asked about the return loop track placed 'around' an engine house with turntable and other tracks.
That is an ideal way to hid the fact that it is a return loop.
You can do the same 'around a mountain' or by going into
a tunnel.

Don


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Not to get off topic, but try $100: https://www.walthers.com/code-83-nickel-silver-dcc-friendly-6-turnout-double-crossover


Wow, that's quite steep. I'd shop around. I purchased one from internettrains.com in early 2012 for $74.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mesenteria said:


> Wow, that's quite steep. I'd shop around. I purchased one from internettrains.com in early 2012 for $74.


Yeah, I've seen them for around $80, but that's quite a chunk to pay for a non-prototypical track arrangement that is tough to wire and outfit with remote controllers.


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