# New Member and question3



## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

I just bought a Broadway Limited Paragon 3 Light Mikado from an authorized dealer--see below,

5575 USRA Light Mikado, PRR #9627, Paragon3 Sound/DC/DCC, HO (broadway-limited.com)

This is my first model railroad and I liked the attention to detail and I intend to run the Pennsylvania Line circa 1937 in my layout. 

The deficiencies of this company that I've read about now terrify me-should I return this immediately while I still have time? 

Thank you and I will formally introduce myself in a later thread! Excited to be here!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, welcome. That's quite the introduction...

I don't personally have any BLI products, but I've heard both good and bad about their locomotives. I've never heard anything bad about the company itself that was a reasonable complaint. Always remember to take anything you read on-line with a grain -- heck, an entire mine -- of salt. Happy customers don't complain, most of them don't take the time to rebut negative I formation, etc, etc. People who are unhappy, for one reason or another, usually have an axe to grind and will go out of their way to cause trouble. I generally trust my own experience over that of others; and want to verify for myself the truth of any wild claims. I tend to use the legal standard of "a preponderance of evidence", not head right to the worst case scenario. Perhaps if you shared some specifics about what you've heard / read, and why it would "terrify" you, someone could offer an opinion as to how accurate it is. Plenty of people here have BLI locos; we probably even have some haters among our members, so be careful trusting our opinions too fully, either. 

I mean, the worst possible outcome is that you have paid a good chunk of change for a locomotive that is completely non-functional, and the company refuses to pr can't do anything about it. Frustrating and annoying, sure, but hardly a life-changing event.

At the end of the day, a model locomotive is a pretty simple machine, and pretty much anything that is wrong with it could be set right with some time and money. Annoying? Sure. A disaster? Not really?

I guess the question is, does the locomotive run? If not, we can probably help you get it running.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm not sure what you mean by "deficiencies", although there have been some recent complaints over running issues.
Have you tried to run it yet? Have you experienced a problem, or are you just afraid you'll have one in the future?
If the locomotive runs smoothly, and the sounds are okay, and it responds to commands, it's likely a good one.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

LateStarter said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "deficiencies", although there have been some recent complaints over running issues.
> Have you tried to run it yet? Have you experienced a problem, or are you just afraid you'll have one in the future?
> If the locomotive runs smoothly, and the sounds are okay, and it responds to commands, it's likely a good one.


Thanks for taking the time to respond-I bought it new for 230$-I am within warranty for a year. I was just talking to a member of the railroad club here in Pittsburgh and he said "Broadway limited" is bad news stay away-so that panicked me. Specially that they short and the paragon 3 comes with a bad engine. 

I just completed the woodwork on my platform build and won't have anything running for at least 6 months. I suppose I can go test it somewhere?

I will be asking many many questions and I appreciate all of your potential help and guidance. I took an entire 21 by 7 1/2 foot room for my first HO platform.......


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Yes, you should definitely try to find a test track somewhere to run it on... if for nothing else but to calm your anxieties.
Or, you could simply set up a circle of powered track somewhere, and check it out that way (unless you haven't obtained a DCC controller yet).


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

LateStarter said:


> Yes, you should definitely try to find a test track somewhere to run it on... if for nothing else but to calm your anxieties.
> Or, you could simply set up a circle of powered track somewhere, and check it out that way (unless you haven't obtained a DCC controller yet).


I do not yet have a DCC controller system- I'll go back up and test it at the hobby-shop I bought it


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Good idea. 
Keep us posted.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Welcome! 

I am new as well (joined with the bug in December 2020). I am in planning mode for my layout but did buy enoough Atlas True Track for a temp doubled oval. 

I received a BLI P3 Mikado for christmas present. Shorted (or some type of failure) on my DC layout at a turnout that was giving me some trouble. This was within the 30 day return window to the online seller (Modeltrainstuff.com) so I returned it - no questions asked - for full refund. Then bought one to replace at LHS which runs nice. I had since upgraded to DCC (Digitrax Zephyr). No complaints. 

Yes, I'd try to give it a good run somewhere; if that goes well, then remember CT's advice and weigh other's opinions against own experience. 

****** GO ahead and ask lots of questions. I certainly do! Pretty good group of collective wisdom types here. *****

Steve


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Stejones82 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> I am new as well (joined with the bug in December 2020). I am in planning mode for my layout but did buy enoough Atlas True Track for a temp doubled oval.
> 
> ...


I intend to give it a try on Thursday just to see how it goes. I was gonna grab two K4's from my LHS as well but now I am hesitating after reading the online reviews. Granted, it seems as though BL has good customer service so I will give it a go with this engine and slowly add to it. 

The problem is this is the only company that still seems to service the engine and era I desire. I guess I will try and obtain Paragon 2 units. 

Thank you I will have plenty of questions and I will get a work in process shot in a couple days!!!


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

I can get my hands on a brand new broadway limited paragon2 prr k4s .... based upon reviews it appears this is more reliable than the paragon 3


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

repman66 said:


> I do not yet have a DCC controller system- I'll go back up and test it at the hobby-shop I bought it


Take it back to the club and give it a run there. But it really doesn't take much to get a small test track set up.

That guy at the club, thoug, is exactly the kind of person whose opinion I would take with a huge doss of skepticism. He may have had a bad experience, or he may have some other issue. Tough to say.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Take it back to the club and give it a run there. But it really doesn't take much to get a small test track set up.
> 
> That guy at the club, thoug, is exactly the kind of person whose opinion I would take with a huge doss of skepticism. He may have had a bad experience, or he may have some other issue. Tough to say.


I am not actually a member yet-my friend is. I just started on this project after having HO's and Lionels as a kid. Just finished woodworking and now laying out the track. 

I called the Hobby Store and I am picking up more track tomorrow and will give the engine a test. 

THANK YOU ALL and I will update you. In reading more about the purported problems of this engine I don't believe that will be an issue-I am running several independent lines and will not need to set this engine to share a track with another-at least not that I plan on it! 

Thank you!


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## Billy 2 Wolves (May 22, 2018)

repman66 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond-I bought it new for 230$-I am within warranty for a year. I was just talking to a member of the railroad club here in Pittsburgh and he said "Broadway limited" is bad news stay away-so that panicked me. Specially that they short and the paragon 3 comes with a bad engine.
> 
> I just completed the woodwork on my platform build and won't have anything running for at least 6 months. I suppose I can go test it somewhere?
> 
> I will be asking many many questions and I appreciate all of your potential help and guidance. I took an entire 21 by 7 1/2 foot room for my first HO platform.......


There are those who have had a bad experience with a particular brand & will not buy anything of that brand if it were being given away free. I'd do more research into the company: Maybe ask some different modelers (maybe at a different club). Sometimes the problem with a particular product is merely an individual's personal opinion.
Like others have said here: Find a test track (the local club you mentioned my very well have one. A club near me does) give it a test run & see what happens


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Billy 2 Wolves said:


> There are those who have had a bad experience with a particular brand & will not buy anything of that brand if it were being given away free. I'd do more research into the company: Maybe ask some different modelers (maybe at a different club). Sometimes the problem with a particular product is merely an individual's personal opinion.
> Like others have said here: Find a test track (the local club you mentioned my very well have one. A club near me does) give it a test run & see what happens


Well I called another hobbystore and they said that company has a quality issue..... I took it up to try it and IT WORKED. So we will see I'll keep an open mind. I attached my woodwork-I know I suck it is my first time..... My room is 21 feet by 7 feet 5 inches.... I think it is big enough to run a couple lines. I am trying to create a quality track plan...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Does the hobby store that said they have quality issues sell BLI? If not, that's a common sales tactic to get you to buy something from HIS store...

So, a couple of issues. One is that OSB is cheap, but not very dimensionally stable. It may give you problems with expansion and contraction. 

Second, you should have a pretty good idea what your track plan is going to look like before you put your benchwork together. As it stands, you have limited what you can do in the space.

Lastly, can you reach that heater? Or anything else back in that area? It doesn't look like it from the photos.

You're probably not real keen to rip all this out and start over, but I'm afraid you'll end up there. Slow down and figure out where your trying to go before you start heading there.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Does the hobby store that said they have quality issues sell BLI? If not, that's a common sales tactic to get you to buy something from HIS store...
> 
> So, a couple of issues. One is that OSB is cheap, but not very dimensionally stable. It may give you problems with expansion and contraction.
> 
> ...


The Hobby store I called did carry Paragon 3-recommended Paragon 2 to me as he said it has a better engine, more quality, and doesnt have the DCC issues to the extend paragon 3 had-oh and new its cheaper. 

The OSB is 1 inch thick and used for roofing. Plus I have it reinforced to the wall and with 4 by 4s with 2 by 4 every 3 feet. I can jump on it at any spot... I am working from the back to the front ---once I have the mountain set up I was going to cut the corners away for an access point...
I plan on having hills as such marked in red with blue track and the green is the end of the board...


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

I realize, after reading about 10 model railroader books, that I build this thing a bit "different" .....


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Could be an interesting track plan, or an unworkable nightmare done the way you are going. That's a fair amount of trackage, will it all fit? will you be able to keep curve radius large enough for the rolling stock you plan on running? Will the aisles be wide enough? I would highly suggest you take a step back, sit down at a computer screen with accurate room dimensions and a decent track planning program and plan it out in scale. I use and recommend xtrkcad. It's free, runs on everything other than a cell phone, and has a fairly shallow learning curve. You can work in any scale from G to Z. using actual accurately dimensioned branded components. You can set it up to include easements into curves (highly recommended for realistic looking track work and operation) warn you if you have a track section exception (too tight a radius, too much elevation change, etc). 
Also consider your scenery and operation as part of the layout plan and add it in as you go. The worst mistake first timers make is using what I call "around the xmas tree" track plan with no thought given to creating scenes and operations. Just having the trains running around and around gets boring in a hurry. Whyat is the purpose of your railroad? What industries, businesses, etc. does it serve? Where will you model those businesses/industries/interchanges on your layout?
For example, you sketch includes a turntable. All well and good. What is your railroad's purpose for having a turn table, why is it where you have put it, what else might be happening around a turntable (additional trackage, sorting yard, storage tracks, a locomotive and or railcar service facility/yard, supporting businesses and homes for the workers??? How will the locomotives reach the turntable from the mainline, how will they exit (long distance backing up, especially onto the main should be avoided)? Where will they leave the cars? Once a locomotive has been turned will it still have a way to get back to the turn table from the other direction to be turned again? Do this type analysis for each major section of the layout and transition scenes in between, and you'll soon be building a model layout rather than playing with toy trains.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Yes-the top two lines will be passenger trains, the rest will be coal, timber, and industry. The loop on the right will be inside a steel mill with the community rising gently. The left will be the alleghenies with trains coming from tunnels loaded with coal and raw materials for the mill. The turnout is right where the mill ends. That's the plan anyway. My turn radius, with the exception of the small mill train, are at least 18 degrees - I think.

Lastly, I have most of the coal and timber trains turning around under mountains and hills to similate their arrive fully loaded from the mines and timber fields. Trying to keep as much visible track looking like actual "lines". 


Thanks for the recommendation as to xtrkcad. I tried another program and I couldn't make sense of it at all!


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## Homeless by Choice (Apr 15, 2016)

repman66 said:


> Yes-the top two lines will be passenger trains, the rest will be ...
> That's the plan anyway. My turn radius, with the exception of the small mill train, are at least 18 *degrees* - I think. ...


 I am following this discussion about your plans and layout. I noticed that you made reference to HO in one of your comments above so I am wondering if the word "degrees" above was auto-corrected from "inches" to "degrees" by the spellchecker. I believe that 18 degrees would be about a 44" radius in HO scale.

Keep up the good work and I will continue to follow.

LeRoy


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Homeless by Choice said:


> I am following this discussion about your plans and layout. I noticed that you made reference to HO in one of your comments above so I am wondering if the word "degrees" above was auto-corrected from "inches" to "degrees" by the spellchecker. I believe that 18 degrees would be about a 44" radius in HO scale.
> 
> Keep up the good work and I will continue to follow.
> 
> LeRoy


Thank you! 18 degree curve is the smallest I intend to use. Each side has 89 inches for curves. I plan to hide the two main freight liners each way under the hills and turn them around- the two passenger will be around the outside and higher up-traveling along the hills and valleys. 

My dad worked at Pullman Standard in Butler PA so I am trying to model that and a Steel Mill. 

One of the Passenger trains will cross the valley over the Mill-much as the old train bridge did in Homestead. 

I am trying to put an old growth forest with a logging camp and mining town on the left. 

I am laying out track now- if I need to make platform modifications I will do that before I start tiering the railroad lines. I shouldn't have made it so sturdy and unmovable but, hey, we all have to learn!


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

xtrkcad has a large following and is updated regularly. you can get a lot of help. Don't give up on it all cad programs have a fairly heavy learning curve at the beginning, especially if you have never used a cad program before, Follow the tutorial videos and demos. Start by laying out your room size in layer 1 (be accurate, the program is accurate to 0.0001"+!), then set up your basic bench work on layer 2. (by doing layers, you can change what's on that layer without changing the entire plan) now make a layer for each level if doing more than one, a mainline layer, as many different layers as you want to work with separately. Think of layers as sheets of transparent paper stacked up with a section or level drawn on each. Now pick the track system you want to use for your turnouts and special track from the parameters library. you can mix brands, sectional with flex, anything you can do in real life. Now startlaying out your main line by making it the working layer. I'd start by placing a few turnouts where you might want them, remember nothing is set in stone, drag off the selection bar and drop where you want it, move and rotate all you want. now start connecting the turnouts. I use mostly flex track so I select add cornu curve, and click on the ends I want connected. The program will select what it thinks is the best connection, but you can always change it. Think of what you are doing as virtually laying track on your board, but you don't have to rip it up, or recut anything! Soon you will be doing "what if..."s! I am planning a new two level n scale layout 8'x18' with > 60 turnouts and . 100 structures in xtrkcad. If you run into questions, how do I's, or want to see what I'm doing, I'll be glad to assist you. send me your email so we can take it off line.

PS: I think you mean inch radius, not degrees. inch radius is how tight the curve is, degrees is what portion of a circle (360 degrees in a circle no matter how big it is) is being used. Or to use a common example: Inch radius is how *big* of a pie you bought, degrees is the *angle *between the two cuts that made the slice you ate. If you cut 90 degrees out you ate 1/4 of the pie no matter how big it was to start with.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> xtrkcad has a large following and is updated regularly. you can get a lot of help. Don't give up on it all cad programs have a fairly heavy learning curve at the beginning, especially if you have never used a cad program before, Follow the tutorial videos and demos. Start by laying out your room size in layer 1 (be accurate, the program is accurate to 0.0001"+!), then set up your basic bench work on layer 2. (by doing layers, you can change what's on that layer without changing the entire plan) now make a layer for each level if doing more than one, a mainline layer, as many different layers as you want to work with separately. Think of layers as sheets of transparent paper stacked up with a section or level drawn on each. Now pick the track system you want to use for your turnouts and special track from the parameters library. you can mix brands, sectional with flex, anything you can do in real life. Now startlaying out your main line by making it the working layer. I'd start by placing a few turnouts where you might want them, remember nothing is set in stone, drag off the selection bar and drop where you want it, move and rotate all you want. now start connecting the turnouts. I use mostly flex track so I select add cornu curve, and click on the ends I want connected. The program will select what it thinks is the best connection, but you can always change it. Think of what you are doing as virtually laying track on your board, but you don't have to rip it up, or recut anything! Soon you will be doing "what if..."s! I am planning a new two level n scale layout 8'x18' with > 60 turnouts and . 100 structures in xtrkcad. If you run into questions, how do I's, or want to see what I'm doing, I'll be glad to assist you. send me your email so we can take it off line.
> 
> PS: I think you mean inch radius, not degrees. inch radius is how tight the curve is, degrees is what portion of a circle (360 degrees in a circle no matter how big it is) is being used. Or to use a common example: Inch radius is how *big* of a pie you bought, degrees is the *angle *between the two cuts that made the slice you ate. If you cut 90 degrees out you ate 1/4 of the pie no matter how big it was to start with.


Yes indeed sorry- it was 18 inch radius on the packaging. I have a lot to learn .... I appreciate the help-I have a rough sketch in my head and was gonna simply ""lay it all out" ... this way does seem better just to correct what I am doing

Thank you!


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Not a problem, terminology is just one of those things that you just have to learn, it's like a RRers subset of english, It just helps to communicate and get useful answers to questions if you use the right terminology. It's been some time since I did HO, but I believe 18" is the minimum radius recommended. If so it should be reserved for spurs and yards. Mainlines should use as large a radius as will fit, especially if long cars like passenger coaches and larger locomotives will be used. Even if they will operate on the minimum, they will look awkward with all the overhang and may hit passing cars, bridges, signals, and tunnels. I really recommend using flex track over sectional track wherever possible to avoid electrical gremlins (especially with DCC) due to so many joints, a lot of soldering and a multitude of drops to the buss. A large layout of sectional track can look like a mad spiderweb of wires underneath.
Also xtrkcad will help you plan easements (decrease in curve radius as it transitions into straight, much more prototypical, less toy train like) in flex track and increased parallel track spacing in curves automatically calculated by radius.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

repman66 said:


> Yes-the top two lines will be passenger trains, the rest will be coal, timber, and industry. The loop on the right will be inside a steel mill with the community rising gently. The left will be the alleghenies with trains coming from tunnels loaded with coal and raw materials for the mill. The turnout is right where the mill ends. That's the plan anyway. My turn radius, with the exception of the small mill train, are at least 18 degrees - I think.
> 
> Lastly, I have most of the coal and timber trains turning around under mountains and hills to similate their arrive fully loaded from the mines and timber fields. Trying to keep as much visible track looking like actual "lines".
> 
> ...


I don't know which other program you tried, but XtrakCAD has a pretty steep learning curve. I use and would recommend AnyRail, which has a much shallower learning curve. None of these programs is going to make much sense out of the box if you have no previous experience with CAD, or at least computer drawing / painting programs. You'll need to spend some time and figure it out.

I love your ideas for a layout! Unfortunately, I think they are about to have an unpleasant collision with reality. You seem pretty eager to charge ahead and get things done, which is a refreshing change from people who go into paralysis by analysis and / or are afraid to try something because they're not sure it will be perfect.

I would urge you to slow down a bit and get some preliminary planning and design done before you put too much more effort into your layout. Frustration with things not working is one of the main reasons newcomers quit the hobby, and I'd hate to see you go down that path. Specifically, you need to make sure that you have room for everything you want to fit on your layout (from the sketch you provided, it doesn't look like it will, unless you have no plans for any scenery or structures. You also need to look at access. While you can crawl on the layout surface to build things you can't reach from the aisle, that's not a practical way to run a layout. If you have a derailment that's beyond your reach, it can be a major headache.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> I don't know which other program you tried, but XtrakCAD has a pretty steep learning curve. I use and would recommend AnyRail, which has a much shallower learning curve. None of these programs is going to make much sense out of the box if you have no previous experience with CAD, or at least computer drawing / painting programs. You'll need to spend some time and figure it out.
> 
> I love your ideas for a layout! Unfortunately, I think they are about to have an unpleasant collision with reality. You seem pretty eager to charge ahead and get things done, which is a refreshing change from people who go into paralysis by analysis and / or are afraid to try something because they're not sure it will be perfect.
> 
> I would urge you to slow down a bit and get some preliminary planning and design done before you put too much more effort into your layout. Frustration with things not working is one of the main reasons newcomers quit the hobby, and I'd hate to see you go down that path. Specifically, you need to make sure that you have room for everything you want to fit on your layout (from the sketch you provided, it doesn't look like it will, unless you have no plans for any scenery or structures. You also need to look at access. While you can crawl on the layout surface to build things you can't reach from the aisle, that's not a practical way to run a layout. If you have a derailment that's beyond your reach, it can be a major headache.


Thank you-I am perfectly willing to try things and redo-its a learning curve. I will get the mountains up and I plan on cutting access points in three of the corners incase a train derails under the mountains. 

I am actually, after talking to a buddy from the club, going to move the roundhouse and such to the left side of the layout and model a small town after Altoona. The steel mill and rising city will be on a 9 x 7.5 block-which I think will be sufficient. I took measurements from models and with the river there is plenty of space for a mill. 

My main interest is scenery-I love things looking perfect. Once the track has been mapped out I can begin to fool with the points of interest. 

Honestly the two areas I haven't solved are: if I can get a train from the valley floor to the main line because the line would have to rise two feet from the mainline. Also, bridging-lionel makes a removable bridge for the doorway which I don't believe HO does (I was told I could power the bridge itself and have it as a trap door per say. Next, is I will have to lay a bridge on a turn which I don't think is made and will have to be customizable. ..

But, we can meet these challenges as they arise!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Making a bridge from scratch isn't terribly hard. Aluminum channel will span a 3-4' gap with no sagging. Suitably braced dimensional lumber is also an option.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Making a bridge from scratch isn't terribly hard. Aluminum channel will span a 3-4' gap with no sagging. Suitably braced dimensional lumber is also an option.












My bridge has to be 21 inches.... I found a steel 1906 double bridge kit that is 27 inches which will do. Was thinking of running 3 lines though.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

yes, 30" is about the maximum you can reach, and 24" the maximum extended time working distance from the fascia or standing upright access hole without climbing onto the layout/destroying scenery.
Your benchwork showing the wide closed in corner really worries me, plus it seems rather low, especially since you mentioned multilevel. I like my main level at about 44-48" above the floor. That's closer to eye level (like looking out a second story window) which make a much more realistic view. At 36" all you see are rooftops, like standing on a 10-15 story building looking down. (even highly detailed, roofs aren't really THAT interesting) you can't really appreciate any of the structure faces or street level detail. At 30" it like looking down from an airplane. Plus at the higher level it makes working under the layout much more pleasant.
One more suggestion: Paint the underside of your benchwork semi-gloss white before starting your wiring, and run some inexpensive led rope lights around the edges behind the fascia wired thru a dedicated switch. You'll thank me a hundred times when working or troubleshooting under there. Also you can't have too many 110V outlets all around the walls underneath the layout A 4 outlet gang every 3 feet of running wall is minimum to avoid cords on the floor, extension cords, and/or octopuses plugged in. You don't have to wire them in the wall, you can use metal wiring chase and plug sections screwed to the bottom edge of the benchwork.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Bridging a doorway is pretty easy, the bridge itself is just cosmetic not structural Use whatever bridging you like You could make a lift out, hinged lift, or swing "bridge", depends on how many times it needs to be opened, how much room you have, and who will be opening it. Let me know when you get to that point in the planning, and I'll help you with the mechanical part, alignment, electrical etc.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

My bench is at 38 inches-I have three inches of foam to lay. The lowest part of the valley will be at 41 inches. Most of the town will be from 43-55 inches. My main lines on the edges will be running at a height of 50 inches roughly


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

scenicsRme said:


> Bridging a doorway is pretty easy, the bridge itself is just cosmetic not structural Use whatever bridging you like You could make a lift out, hinged lift, or swing "bridge", depends on how many times it needs to be opened, how much room you have, and who will be opening it. Let me know when you get to that point in the planning, and I'll help you with the mechanical part, alignment, electrical etc.


Thank you so much-I just measured- with foam the lowest points will be 39 inches. A little low but the town and mill will be higher


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

OK, sounds good. I really would like to see you do some to scale track planning to be sure everything will fit and crossings and elevation changes are doable. Depending on your loco and the number of cars you want to haul, ~ 3% or less grade is about the workable max to shoot for, 2.5% over long distances or around turns is better..That means you need 100 linear inches of track to move up 3" (I don't know how much clearance is needed in HO, but the height of the roadbed, the track bottom of ties to the top of the rail, and any support under the ties of the overpassing track needs to be added to that minimum.) Do you have an NMRA clearance gauge? A worthwhile investment, you can check a lot of important measurements with one.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

repman66 said:


> Thank you-I am perfectly willing to try things and redo-its a learning curve. I will get the mountains up and I plan on cutting access points in three of the corners incase a train derails under the mountains.
> 
> I am actually, after talking to a buddy from the club, going to move the roundhouse and such to the left side of the layout and model a small town after Altoona. The steel mill and rising city will be on a 9 x 7.5 block-which I think will be sufficient. I took measurements from models and with the river there is plenty of space for a mill.
> 
> ...


The access needs to be not only into the mountain , but thru the mountain (a volcano crater if you will!) so you can stand up and work on the outside of the mountain face and stuff in front of it that you can't reach from the fascia. If you don't like the idea of an open hole, you can bring it up above eye level of the tallest spectator or make the peak a removable plug.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

That is quite an ambitious track plan. It is very difficult to 'read' it clearly, but it appears
to include several 'reverse loops' plus the turntable. Each would require a 'reverse loop'
controller. Also, it is very important that your curves be 22" radius or better if you plan
running any of the modern 6 axle locos or large steamers. 80 ft. passenger cars also need
the wide radius curves else the car ends would hang out over the track and possibly pull each
other off the track.

In the space that you have, I would create a single track main with several passing sidings
a yard or two and a number of industrial spurs. That would make possible the wide radius curves
suggested. It is strongly recommended that any slopes be limited to 2% raise...else your trains
would be limited to just a few cars.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

repman66 said:


> I am not actually a member yet-my friend is. I just started on this project after having HO's and Lionels as a kid. Just finished woodworking and now laying out the track.
> 
> I called the Hobby Store and I am picking up more track tomorrow and will give the engine a test.
> 
> ...


repman66;

This is strictly a theoretical example. based on reply #8 from stejones.
The Atlas "True Track" he mentioned is Atlas "Snap Track" sectional track, with a roadbed piece on the bottom. The "turnout" (track switch) where the short circuit occurred would therefore be an Atlas "Snap Switch" turnout, a type that has some history of shorts between the two rails exiting the frog. My point is that it's possible (though unlikely in this particular case*) that the short was caused by the Atlas turnout, not the BLI locomotive. Assuming, temporarily, and solely for the sake of illustration, that this were true*, the subsequent assumption that "BLI locomotives are plagued with short circuit problems, and should be avoided" would then be based on false, and grossly insufficient data. The fact that one short circuit occurred, does not prove that even that one particular BLI locomotive was at fault, let alone that most, or all, BLI locomotives are prone to short circuits, and therefore not to be trusted. That's a leap of faith, and away from logic, so wide that Evil Knievel might balk at trying it. 😄
Since you're new, its going to take time, and experience, to learn enough about this hobby to judge the truth of claims that one brand is good, and another bad. You'll find out that such claims are usually subjective at best. Meanwhile, take CTValley's wise advice, and take any claims you hear with plenty of salt. Then go digging for more input from the most reliable sources, trying things out for yourself, and also getting multiple opinions from experienced people. Your test at the hobby shop is a good example of the first one. This forum is a good place to get the second.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂 

* stejones sent the loco back and got a replacement which did not have the short problem. That tends to shoot the theory that the turnout was causing the short, since presumably, the second locomotive made it across the same turnout with out shorting.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

repman66 said:


> The Hobby store I called did carry Paragon 3-recommended Paragon 2 to me as he said it has a better engine, more quality, and doesnt have the DCC issues to the extend paragon 3 had-oh and new its cheaper.
> 
> The OSB is 1 inch thick and used for roofing. Plus I have it reinforced to the wall and with 4 by 4s with 2 by 4 every 3 feet. I can jump on it at any spot... I am working from the back to the front ---once I have the mountain set up I was going to cut the corners away for an access point...
> I plan on having hills as such marked in red with blue track and the green is the end of the board...
> ...


repman;

We have a saying here, "Your railroad, your rules." It means that you can build your layout anyway you want. For what it's worth, I think you are making several very common rookie mistakes. How would I know? Simply because, like a lot of other forum members, I've been a model railroader for several decades, and in that time, I, and others here, have made most of the same mistakes. Now there is a school of thought that a new model railroader needs to make a lot of the same mistakes on his/her first railroad that the rest of us did, in order to lean what not to do on the next layout. Well, there is certainly some truth in that, but it is incredibly costly in terms of both money, and time. If you're OK with that, and want to build your first, large, complicated, expensive, immoveable, layout as strictly a learning exercise, then carry on. Your railroad, your rules.

On the other hand, if you want to keep some of your money, time and effort, and build something that is more realistic, operates somewhat like a real railroad does, and that you can take with you if you ever have to move, then you might want to take some advice from people who have "Been there, Done that, and not follow blindly along in our first fumbling footsteps toward layouts we later abandoned, but rather jump ahead to some of our more recent, and much improved, efforts as a guide.

So what mistakes am I talking about?

1) Building the table before the track plan is done. Model railroad benchwork should be built to fit a track plan that has been carefully thought out , drawn out, and typically revised several times, before any benchwork construction is started. Otherwise, inevitably, the railroad will be shaped to fit the benchwork, rather than the benchwork shaped to fit the track plan.

2) Grossly overbuilding the table, possibly in hopes of preventing warping. There are lighter, and more effective, ways. Model railroad benchwork needs to be strong and rigid enough to support the weight of model trains, not real trains, or even jumping people. It can be both strong, and rigid, without being heavy. Strength and rigidity often overlap, but are actually separate qualities. For example, a parachute needs to be strong. Your life depends on it holding together. However, its not the least bit rigid, it can be folded up and put it back into its pack.

3) Track, track, everywhere, with hardly any "model world" in between tracks. Cramming a lot of track onto a layout, is very expensive when you add up the cost of dozens of "turnouts" (track switches) and the switch machines to operate them. This also makes things more complicated to build, more complicated to wire, more complicated to run, and more complicated to maintain. 90% of all derailments on model railroads occur at turnouts, so the more turnouts you have, the more derailments you are likely to have to deal with. Choosing a reliable turnout brand, like Peco, can help reduce the derailments a lot, but keeping things simple never hurts either.

4) Consider the amount of time involved. Even a fairly simple model railroad typically takes months, or often years, to complete. In fact, many are never completed, since during construction, you will likely decide you want to heavily modify the original design, or start over from scratch. This is where research of the prototype, and extensive, lengthy, careful, planning in advance pays off.

Now there is no particular reason why you, have to accept any of this. Your railroad, your rules. However, if you should choose to explore any of these points further, the files below explain them in detail.

In any case, Good Luck & Have Fun with whatever you choose to build;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

repman66 said:


> The OSB is 1 inch thick and used for roofing. Plus I have it reinforced to the wall and with 4 by 4s with 2 by 4 every 3 feet. I can jump on it at any spot... I am working from the back to the front ---once I have the mountain set up I was going to cut the corners away for an access point...


You're making a common rookie mistake here: you're mistaking "sturdy" for "dimensionally stable". The way you're building this thing, you're going to be able to use it as a bomb shelter. Our railroads are actually very light for the space they occupy, even if you're using plaster for terrain. 2" foamboard supported on 18" joists is plenty sturdy for our purposes. 1/2" plywood, suitably braced, likewise. 1x3 boards are more than solid enough, especially if paired with a 1x2 joined perpendicularly in a T or L shape.

Your layout will certainly be able to resist any tornados or hurricanes that occur in your layout room! Your roof may not be perfectly flat under the shingles, and that's not going to be a problem. But if your layout is doing this under your trains, it will be a nightmare. Each of those little chunks of wood is prone to expanding and contracting independently, creating a washboard surface that is not conducive to running trains. If you're planning to cover this with several inches of foam, you may be OK with the OSB under everything... although unless you're planning to dig in deep to create canyons or streambeds, it's a waste of money and material.

As Traction Fan says, you're perfectly free to build your layout in whatever way seems best to you. Your layout, your rules. I hope you don't think we're trying to tell you what to do. But as he says, those of us who have been around the hobby a few years have made many of these mistakes ourselves, and we've seen plenty of other people make them too. We're just trying to help you make the most of your hobby time and budget, and not to get frustrated and quit along the way.


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## Yoppeh7J-UPmp954 (Nov 23, 2014)

repman66 said:


> I just bought a Broadway Limited Paragon 3 Light Mikado from an authorized dealer--see below,
> 
> 5575 USRA Light Mikado, PRR #9627, Paragon3 Sound/DC/DCC, HO (broadway-limited.com)
> 
> ...


This was pre pandemic so they may still have problem related to that .
I bought a BLI Big Boy on eBay and It had a broken drawbar that I was able to piece back together but would be noticeable. I emailed them and they answered the next day said at the moment they did not have the drawbar but would soon and it came not long after. Since it was not under a warranty I think they would be better under warranty.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Thank you for the responses- 

1)The railroads I have been exposed with here-my uncles and their friends as well as my older neighbors, have always been built in these funky little rooms that are so common in pittsburgh basements. Where you'd have to use a snake handler to catch a derailment... I built the platform before I obtained modern literature and methods-My uncles room stayed up for 50 years (with many changes). 

2) Track plan: I originally had a three line O gauge track plan but when figuring out the curves realized I couldn't run the trains I wanted and, more importantly, I couldn't create the scale and scenery I desired. 

3) I already purchased 4 sheets of owens 1 inch insolation and 4 sheets of 2 inch-I plan on having 3 inches above the platform at all levels.



I think I am going to slow down construction a bit though-I am the type of person who just works and works on what he likes blasting forward. My buddy from the club sent me Youtube videos how to lay track and ease into turns which I think is important-I want to get the main lines constructed before summer. Then I will carve the rivers and the creeks and lay out the valley track.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

I was thinking of cutting the platform as so-especially in the left corner covered by the mountain to gain access..... this might work better.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Had a buddy help with this-I am still going to change the right corner regarding the main line but I Set up a station right up from have my roundhouse and engine warehouse to the right


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Have you resolved all of the several 'reverse loop' situations?

Don


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

DonR said:


> Have you resolved all of the several 'reverse loop' situations?
> 
> Don


He was explaining I have to put a dpdt toggle -gonna make an turn around in the back corner


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

repman66 said:


> He was explaining I have to put a dpdt toggle -gonna make an turn around in the back corner


 Or use an automated reverse loop controller in DCC. Throwing that manual switch fast enough not to get a short gets old fast.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A layout as complex and as large as yours appears
to be surely will use a DCC system. If so, each 'reverse loop'
will require an automatic 'reverse loop controller'. Yes, you
can use DPDT switches, several of them in your case, but
you would be flipping switches continuously...ans still end up
with shorts when one switch didn't throw. The reverse
controllers are totally automatic and once installed you never
see them again.

Don


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