# What does 4301 on a locomotive stand for?



## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Googled it and cant find an answer. Thought it was a Tyco only thing, but have seen it on other makes as well. Just curious to what it actually stands for.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Its a cab number of a locomotive. Probably one that s preserved somewhere.
Do a search "engine 4301".


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I did the search and it kinda is a Tyco thing.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

I'm assuming you mean a number printed on the cab or body of the locomotive.

Every piece if railroad equipment has an identifying number so that the railroad's operations folks can track where things are, what loads are being carried by what cars, what engines are assigned to pull what trains, etc. The railroad's initials (reporting marks) + the car/engine's number are unique. (Though over time and history, previous numbers that are no longer in use may be re-used by new equipment.)

For example, here is engine CN 2990:



Canadian Freight Railcar Gallery - CN 2990



Every engine has a unique initial+number combination. There is only one CN 2990. Other engines of the same type are CN 2991, 2992, etc.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

TYCO however, being the cheapest of toy trains out there, the actual numbers used on the "model" may not have any sort of relation to the number(s) used on the real train.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Its on the upper forward part of the cab and its usually lit up on Tyco's and its on the side of some of them. My Athearns CSX DCC loco has these same numbers on the side of the cab below the window. So I'm guessing there is some kind of meaning to it.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Tigger said:


> Its on the upper forward part of the cab and its usually lit up on Tyco's and its on the side of some of them. My Athearns CSX DCC loco has these same numbers on the side of the cab below the window. So I'm guessing there is some kind of meaning to it.


See what I wrote above. Every engine has an ID number so that equipment can be tracked and managed, and also engine numbers are important for identifying trains on the railroad. Orders will be given to, and specifically reference the "lead" engine numbers on trains.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Its on the upper forward part of the cab and its usually lit up on Tyco's and its on the side of some of them. My Athearns CSX DCC loco has these same numbers on the side of the cab below the window. So I'm guessing there is some kind of meaning to it.


how about a picture?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I’d believe Athearns number is correct for the locomotive it’s on, rather than the Tyco version….


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

CSXT 4301 (model GP39-2):






Pictures of CSX 4301


Pictures of CSX 4301, Model: GP39-2



www.rrpicturearchives.net










HO GP39-2, CSX #4301 (ATHG65535): Athearn Trains







www.athearn.com


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Rock Island's 4301 is a GP 38-2
Soo Line 4301 is a GP 30C
Chessie System had a GP 40-2
Santa Fe, Illinois Central, Virginian, Grand Trunk, Burlington Northern did not have locomotive number 4301.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

We need to know which railroad the OP is talking about…


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Okay, here we go. Tyco used these numbers on all of their loco's with the same body/chassis. They also used 5628 on a shorter version with a longer nose and all of those were were numbered to that chassis/body only. What I'm asking is why did the newer Athearns CSX come with those exact numbers. The first set is 4301 Tyco. 2nd pic is 5628 Tyco. 3rd pic is the Athearns DCC model which mimics the 5628 but uses the 4301 numbers. I've read all the responses above and I'm still a little confused.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

For comparison, 5628 in front and the longer 4301 behind it.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

The Athearn model, as alluded to above, is a realistic depiction of the ACTUAL CSX 4301, which was a GP39-2.

The Tyco models are just Tyco being Tyco, and just applying some number to all the models regardless of reality. All the Tyco 4301s appear to be a version of a C630, the 5628s are a representation of a GP20.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Do not take Tyco as being anywhere near prototypical…..they were built as toys, and thus not realistic in numbering or even road names….


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

As previously stated by other responders, railroads assign numbers to locomotives so that they can be identified and tracked (both for maintenance and movement). Often, they were sequentially assigned to a batch of identical locos purchased together. Numbers were unique to a railroad, but nothing prevented several railroads from using the same number.

Also as previously stated, manufacturers who make realistic models use numbers and paint schemes that the real railroad used. That doesn't stop manufacturers of cheap locos, who don't give a crap about realism, from slapping whatever paint scheme and / or road number on a loco that they feel like, or even from giving them all the same number. You will only find ONE CSX#4301 from Athearn (or any other quality manufacturer), although you could still find it on another railroad's loco _if the real railroad had one with that number._ Since Tyco is not such a company, it wouldn't surprise me if they had several different locos with that number on them.


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

Santa Fe 5628 was an SD45-2 (six axle diesel)
Chattanooga and Rock Island never had locomotives numbered 5628.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Alright, that makes sense. I'm using the numbers 4301 for the long address on the NCE Power Cab for the Athearn's CSX unit. I have 2 new loco's coming this week. 1 is another Athearns,( Soo Line) so I hope it has different numbers on the side. Probably going to sell most of the Tyco stuff. Keeping 1 or 2 only. My first train was the Spirit of 76 so I thought I'd keep that one and maybe Virginian.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Are you planning on trying to install a decoder in the Tyco's? Good luck with that. If not, you won't be able to run it with an NCE Powercab. Even if you could, you have to be VERY careful running a DC locomotive on a DCC system. You can't let it sit on the track not running. It will burn out the motor.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Absolutely not. I have one dedicate DC loop on the very outside of the layout. Well actually 2, but the inner loop is being changed over to DCC. Once I programmed a DCC unit successfully, I knew the DC models weren't going to be used very much. The one thing very noticeable is that the DC trains are 3 to 4 times faster than the DCC CSX unit I have. Not a huge problem, but that CSX unit is a slow poke.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Alright, that makes sense. I'm using the numbers 4301 for the long address on the NCE Power Cab for the Athearn's CSX unit. I have 2 new loco's coming this week. 1 is another Athearns,( Soo Line) so I hope it has different numbers on the side. Probably going to sell most of the Tyco stuff. Keeping 1 or 2 only. My first train was the Spirit of 76 so I thought I'd keep that one and maybe Virginian.


Unless you ordered another copy of the Athearn CSX 4301, it will have a different number on it. You're aware that retailer listings for locomotives actually show the engine's number, right? 









That's 3 different locomotives, with 3 different road numbers, 6656, 6655, and 6653. You order the road number you want. There's no hoping it has a different number -- you make sure it does when you order it.

And for what it's worth, it's common practice to put the loco road number as the DCC address.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Yes, the Soo Line should read 4407 I believe. This model train hobby is very enjoyable and a whole ton more sophisticated than the last time I put them away. Around 1980.


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

Tigger said:


> The one thing very noticeable is that the DC trains are 3 to 4 times faster than the DCC CSX unit I have. Not a huge problem, but that CSX unit is a slow poke.


You do know you can adjust the speed steps on that DCC loco with your Powercab, right? You might want to look up the operating speeds of the prototype first, though. Road switchers aren't noted for being speed demons, especially in freight service.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

In the early days of running DC trains around the xmas tree, loco top speed was not a concern, if it ran too fast to stay on the track, you just turned down the power pack voltage. Today's models and modelers are much more sophisticated. They want realistic operations with their DCC locos, which use a digital sequence to determine speed, not voltage, with it's attending ability to be speed matched for consisting (coupling more than one loco together to replicate prototype practices) and running at lower more prototypical speeds. Most full size trains actually run at 10 - 45 mph which when scaled down is quite slow, so top speed bragging rights is now left for the slotcar racers. Manufacturers are using much higher quality motors than the typical cheap can motors used in the past and are gearing the final drive ratios so the loco can run and pull a train at much lower speeds for extended times without jittering, being noisy, or overheating. The decoders also use programing tricks to help slow speed running.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I did not know about the speed steps, but its nice to know it is adjustable. This particular engine is very slow. I just programmed 2 more engines yesterday and 1 is basically the same model as the slow one and the top speed on that one is fine. The other is a Rivet Counter unit and top speed is decent but a little more would be nice. I dont need the speed of the DC units, they go too fast to be realistic. I really like DCC. I agree, these can creep along and barely move, which makes coupling very easy. Now I have more research to do with the speed steps. The rivet counter has ditch lights and on you tube there is a video of the exact same model and his ditch lights blink/alternate back and forth, mine just stay on. I didnt have time to figure that out but I'm sure I'll get it. I have so much to figure out with DCC, but its fun. I'd be totally lost without the help of the members here. Thanks to all.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

They can run extremely slow...


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

In the video the front green train running left to right is about full prototypical speed in US, trains in Europe and Japan run much much faster. The blue train is what is called one tie (sleeper) at a time speed.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

IIRC, the Br.151 was running about 35 MPH. Through this station area and the curve, as well as the small size of the layout even Euro train's speed is kept low. It just doesn't look realistic to run any faster.

Sometimes I might have the Re/420 or Br.120 pulling at 45 MPH, but that is the upper limit. The Br.120 pulling the RegioExpress and the Swiss Re/420 pulling the Gotthard Express run a little faster than the rest.

If I had 30' straight sections with 40" curves I would be running them at about 70 MPH.

In contrast the RhB average speed is about 25 MPH on the actual line, but I keep speeds to a max of 20-25 MPH. Especially on the Arosa Bahn.


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

Tigger, (great name, BTW) your Powercab came with a very thorough and easy to understand manual that describes all the different adjustments you can make to your locomotive's decoder through your Powercab. If you're not used to this stuff you might want to read it over several times and write yourself a checklist to help get comfortable with the process. It involves using numbers in ways folks are generally not in the habit of doing. Once you get used to it you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.
Y'all have fun now, y'hear?


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Usually that number is part of a series, railroad X buys 300 engines and they would get numbered in a series, say 4200 through 4499. And with railroad X they may have a larger range, say 4000 through 4999 to refer to all road engines. If an engine is sold/given to another railroad, that railroad would most likely renumber it to fit their numbering scheme.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

I was getting into shape by running up and down the stairs going to the computer ( you tube video's) and back into the basement to program the power cab. Finally my wife sez, why dont you bring the laptop down stairs with you? . I felt like an idiot for not remembering we've had one for about 6 months now. Between that and the manual, I'm becoming more comfortable with it. So far I've programmed 4 engines. What I mean by programmed is the engines respond to the cab and they have address's. I have not done any "special" programming yet. Between the decoder websites such as soundtrax and you tube, I'll make some progress this afternoon. I've been gun shy trying to do it because of a BLi engine that I thought I goofed up. Come to find out it was a BLi problem and it is being taken care of. I spent hours trying to program that Broadway Limited imports steam engine that had a goofed up decoder.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Back to the 4300 series numbering. My neighbor worked for Chessie System / CSX for over 40 years. He spends the winters in Florida. I was planning on asking him what the numbering system meant but unfortunately he passed away a few weeks ago. 88 years young. Great guy, easy smooth talker. I could listen to him for hours. Met him ( Gary) years ago when we did a tour of the local rail yard in Grand Rapids, Mi. I was a firefighter for 31 years for GR. Our hazmat team had to be educated on chemical tanker cars etc. Best part was a tour of the engine. I was planning on showing him my CSX/Chessie System layout this year, he would have gotten a kick out of it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

My condolences on your friend's passing. 

Unlike the designations for military hardware, or even the model number of a particular type of locomotive, the numbering system generally doesn't "mean" anything. It's just a unique identifier for the locomotive. There is some logic to it on most railroads, but there isn't a code to be broken. Locomotives with sequential numbers are generally the same model of locomotive and were usually purchased on the same contract / purchase order. 

Here is a link to the 4000-series numbers owned by CSX Transportation: CSXT 4000-4999 - RailroadfanWiki

As you can see, similar groups are numbered sequentially, usually starting with the next round number; and locomotives get redesignated fairly frequently. If sold to another railroad, they are usually renumbered in the new railroad's numbering scheme.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

There's nothing too complicated about engine numbers.
They're just... numbers.
Different engines were numbered in different series.

On Conrail, B23-7's were the 1900's.
GP38's were 7700's all the way up into the 8200's (they had a lot of them).
GP40's were 3100's, 3200's, etc.
Six axle engines were given 6xxx numbers, such as:
SD40's were 6200-6300's.
SD50's were 6700's.

SW1500 switchers were 9500's.

On models, some manufacturers (usually in older days) would put ANY number on an engine, with no relationship to number on the "real engine".
These days, they're more particular, and almost always get the numbers right.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

My avatar GN 333, (an SDP45) was renumbered twice: once after the merger that created Burlington Northern, and again when BN converted its newer passenger locomotives to freight with the creation of Amtrak. It didn't survive to see the BNSF merger.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

The CSX Athearns GP39-2 ( slow poke) somehow woke up. It is about as fast as the other new engines now. Didnt have to do anything to it. I'm having a difficult time trying to get the ditch lights to come on with this engine. Tsunami 2 decoder. It's supposed to be F24 on the power cab but it dont respond. Back to you tube for that. The other new unit, Rivet Counter, I figured out the ditch lights yesterday. Spent the afternoon on the computer and reading the power cab manual again. It's still greek to me, but it's slowly starting to make sense.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Locomotive numbers really serve the purpose of license plates on cars, to identify the locomotive/vehicle…..just think of CN 5501, as an example, as its license number…..


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

What I have sometimes thought about is freight car numbering. Some railroads had 5 and 6 digit numbers on their cars, eg; could the NYC have had over 100,000 box cars or the SR over 100,000 gondolas? I'm sure there was a method to the numbering but it's always made me mildly curious.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Gramps said:


> What I have sometimes thought about is freight car numbering. Some railroads had 5 and 6 digit numbers on their cars, eg; could the NYC have had over 100,000 box cars or the SR over 100,000 gondolas? I'm sure there was a method to the numbering but it's always made me mildly curious.


The "method" is entirely up to each railroad to determine their own system. All that matters is that the initial + number is unique.

Some railroads added car series more or less somewhat sequentially. Others used a numbering system that grouped similar types of cars into a common numbering range. For example:

CN's number system after the mid 1960s was
1-9999 - locomotives and passenger cars
10000-99999 - caboose, MofW, and company service equipment
100000-199999 - gondolas
200000-299999 - refrigerators and insulated cars
300000-399999 - open and covered hoppers
400000-599999 - boxcars
600000-699999 - flatcars
700000-799999 - automotive related (auto racks and auto parts boxcars)
800000-899999 - livestock cars, woodchip cars

That doesn't mean that they ever actually had anything approaching 100,000 cars in any particular group.

Also sometimes the numbering policy changes over the years. As noted, the above CN logic was introduced in the mid 1960s, and there was a major renumbering program to change the existing numbers of a lot of groups of existing cars into the new numbering system. In more recent years, a lot of covered hoppers that were formerly owned by the Canadian Government and supplied to CN and CP for grain use (those iconic red "Canada" cars etc.) were transferred to CN and had their initials changed to CN keeping the original numbers in the 100000-112999 number range. Since then, CN has been acquiring brand new covered hoppers, numbering them above the former "Canada" cars in the 113000-115999 series, which no longer follows the strict system created in the sixties.

Canadian Pacific's system since the mid 20th century looked something like
1-9999 - locomotives and passenger cars
10000-99999 - boxcars
100000-199999 - insulated boxcars
200000-299999 - boxcars and refrigerators
300000-399999 - flatcars (other than intermodal), gondolas, open and covered hoppers
400000-499999 - cabooses and company service
500000-599999 - intermodal and autoracks

"1000-1099" was a popular number series for a lot of small railroads that acquired single groups of boxcars during the boxcar building craze of the late 1970s. Sometimes when smaller railroads acquired secondhand cars from other railroads they'd keep the original numbers and just change the initials (reporting marks) for the change in ownership.

Eventually when number series "empty out" due to sale or retirement of older equipment, they can be re-used. So "CN 113000" in 1950 would be a very different car than "CN 113000" in 2020, but at any single point in time there can only be at most one "CN 113000" in operation. There can however be a CP 113000, BNSF 113000, KCS 113000, UP 133000, CSXT 113000, etc. There's no unified system other than that the reporting mark + number must be unique. The reporting marks are registered with the AAR so that they are unique to each railroad, but each railroad assigns the number as they see fit.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

For example, here's two engines with the same number - 2210 - but different reporting marks - LLPX (for Locomotive Leasing Partners) and RLK (for RaiLink/Rail America) working together:





__





The world of trains according to David Graham - 20041203.3764.Guelph.jpg Image






railfan.ca





LLPX 2210 is a GP38
RLK 2210 is a GP35 (they later renumbered it 2211 to eliminate confusion from having two 2210s on the same property)


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> The "method" is entirely up to each railroad to determine their own system. All that matters is that the initial + number is unique.
> 
> Some railroads added car series more or less somewhat sequentially. Others used a numbering system that grouped similar types of cars into a common numbering range. For example:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. I understand unique reporting marks for each railroad, it just strikes me as odd that they choose to use 6 digit numbers but, their railroad, their rules.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Gramps said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I understand unique reporting marks for each railroad, it just strikes me as odd that they choose to use 6 digit numbers but, their railroad, their rules.


Well on a big railroad like CN, or UP, or CSX, if you want to use the first few digits to organize your system by car type you can "run out" of numbers in a particular block. Like if 30,000-39,999 is your range for boxcars of all types, you can only have 10,000 total cars and the series is completely full. And makes it harder to divide into distinct groupings of different cars. Six numbers provides another 900,000 or so slots, and you can use the groupings to really categorize things if you want. There are several single orders of large batches of grain service covered hoppers of 1000+ cars on some of the big roads.

Smaller roads tend to use smaller numbers like 3 and 4 digits.

And you can create distinct "classes" and categorization based on the first few numbers.

Like, looking at a CN roster source, I see some of these groupings for assigned-service auto parts boxcars:

790000-790001 
791000-791020 
791021-791041 
792000-792011 
793000-793005 
794000-794004
795000-795041

That's not cherry picking either, that's entirely sequential. CN's 79xxxx range were assigned service parts cars. The third digit breaks down further similar groupings, with some of those groups only using 2-5 numbers out of the possible 1000 car range. While you could fit all these cars into 790000-790999, that doesn't really distinguish them much. (Which is easier now with computerized tracking vs. looking up equipment characteristics in a paper register book.)

My modeled railroad was a smaller shortline, so most #s were 3 and 4 digit.

1 and 2 digit numbers had been used on older steam locomotives (and again, they were broken into different classes like the 50, 60, and 70 classes. 50 class only had two units, but they were different from any other class of unit the RR had, so they got their own number group). When they got diesels the diesels were all in the 100 series, and later hit the 200 series. Passenger cars were in the 300 (baggage), 400 (coach), and 500 (diner/cafe and private cars), and freight cars were mostly 4-digit but some gondolas were in the 601-999 range (not completely filling that). Cabooses were 95xx (older wood caboose series) and 96xx (modern steel cabs) and 10xxx was work equipment.

The overall roster (except for MofW equipment) looked something like this in the year I model:








1985 Locomotive Roster


In 1985, Algoma Central rostered the following units: Number Type HP Builder Date Note 100 GP7L-m 1500 GMDD 1978 Remanufactured by GMDD from AC 162 101 GP7L-m 1500 GMDD 1978 Remanufactured by GMDD ...



vanderheide.ca












1985 Passenger Equipment Roster


Roster listing of passenger equipment in service on the Algoma Central in 1985. See also this link for the full detailed ACR passenger equipment roster and history. Number Type Builder Lineage Note...



vanderheide.ca












1984 Freight Roster


Roster listing of Algoma Central freight equipment taken from a 1984 listing reproduced in Dale Wilson's "Algoma Central Railway Story". Numbers in brackets under quantity column show differences i...



vanderheide.ca


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

Another twist: Great Northern non--revenue cars like cabooses and MOW have a number that ends with X.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

And of course, you meant begins with X….


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> Well on a big railroad like CN, or UP, or CSX, if you want to use the first few digits to organize your system by car type you can "run out" of numbers in a particular block. Like if 30,000-39,999 is your range for boxcars of all types, you can only have 10,000 total cars and the series is completely full. And makes it harder to divide into distinct groupings of different cars. Six numbers provides another 900,000 or so slots, and you can use the groupings to really categorize things if you want. There are several single orders of large batches of grain service covered hoppers of 1000+ cars on some of the big roads.
> 
> Smaller roads tend to use smaller numbers like 3 and 4 digits.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain all this, it's appreciated.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

Yes, you're right.


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

Tigger said:


> Its on the upper forward part of the cab and its usually lit up on Tyco's and its on the side of some of them. My Athearns CSX DCC loco has these same numbers on the side of the cab below the window. So I'm guessing there is some kind of meaning to it.


It's called the road number, and yes it's unique to each individual loco or peice of rolling stock(freight cars) some rail model manufacturers use real numbers in use by the corporate road they're modeling. KATO does this.


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