# Sure could use some ideas...



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I am returning to model trains (HO) after being out for awhile.
I got out right as DCC and sound were coming in. I have a decent 
roster of locos. Like 80 to 90 of them. All pre DCC. Athearns, rivarossi,
spectrums, protos, and such. Decent enough locos I don't want to have to
replace. I am planning a new and fairly large layout. So the ease of wiring
in DCC appeals to me. At first I was just going to stay DC. I can do the DC wiring but like I said the DCC appeals to me. I know I can add decoders
to my engines. But I am thinking it will cost a small fortune to convert all
my engines. I like all my engines and would like to be able to run any of them. 
Will I be able to program say 80 different locos with DCC? Do to the cost
should I stay DC? I think you have the picture. Lets hear some ideas. Thanks.
Oh, can I run DC locos on a DCC set up? Thanks for any ideas. And yes 
money is a factor.

Not long ago I bought a BLI paragon DC/DCC sd40-2 with sound. I got a 
control module to use with DC that lets you do alot with the sound and change cv values for the motor. Problem is this control module will not work with all the other decoders. I have had fun with this decoder.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

This is just my opinion, but I'd go full on DCC. I started out using Bachmann's EZ-Command ($100 on ebay with factory installed DCC) and the Digitrax DH123 decoders (less than $20 on ebay). I quickly outgrew the EZ-Command, but it got me started and got the kids used to running multiple locos at one time. With most systems though, you can program as many locos as you can think up numbers for (most folks use the road number) and you can run one DC loco at a time on a DCC setup, but you cant let it sit idle or you'll burn up the motor. I'm now working on swapping out my DH123's for sound decoders, but it'll take some time.

I'd say start small and build up the fleet. Try to find a DCC system that will expand as you do and look for features that you like. Alot of folks here like NCE, I personally like Digitrax for expandibility and Bachmann for simplicity, but I dont know much about NCE. I really know nothing about BLI, so again, I'm of little to no help.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Quote - Try to find a DCC system that will expand as you do and look for features that you like.

Quote - I personally like Digitrax for expandibility 

Thanks for the response cabledawg. I am lost already.
What does "expand" mean in DCC. What does it entail?


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## Artieiii (Apr 25, 2011)

mopac said:


> Quote - Try to find a DCC system that will expand as you do and look for features that you like.
> 
> Quote - I personally like Digitrax for expandibility
> 
> ...


Mopac,
Expand means that you don't have to buy a new system as your needs/desires grow. I have an NCE power cab on order. If I want to go wireless I can make an extra purchase to do that in the future. The power cab only has enough power for up to 3 trans so If needed I can purchase a power booster add on. If I want to add computer control (JMRI) I can purchase a USB computer interface in the future. Most in the RR forums suggest either Digitrax or NCE for future expandability. You will see quickly that those who have a system stand by their choice. I used this page and others to make my choice:
http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCbrandecisions.htm
HTH
-Art


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

"expand " means buy couple more decoders each month. eventually you will get them all


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

Wow thats a ton of DC locos! I would stay DC if I was you. Do some "block" wiring to run multiples. I went DCC and it kinda killed the hobby for me. THis is just me though. Also I would go Digitrax. I tried the NCE and didn't really like it. I dunno? Keep it simple if you wanna have fun! 

My layout was big and the trains ran slow after I "upgraded". The NCE is only 2v and needs a booster for a large layout. Digitrax is 3v. I should have kept my layout wired in blocks. I bet I would still have it!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks guys. One thing I have learned is I never hear anyone
regret going DCC. I don't think I have heard anyone go from
DCC back to DC. That says alot. I have heard of guys smoking 
decoders installing them in DC engines. Thats a little scary. I have been known to take new engines apart just to see how to do it and how it works, so adding decoders should not be to difficult. A couple more questions if I may. Will I need more power boosters say
with a 24 ft long layout and I guess I will not be using my current power supplies. I see
that they sell turnouts for DCC. I guess that is for just the switching. Will my old Mark 4s
work with DCC, I know DCC will not throw the switches.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

unless you creatively wired your mark 4's (i assume atlas customline mark4) you should be fine - they are DCC friendly

nice read about DCC friendly vs non friendly turnouts and what it really means for modeler. it is not that big of a deal (unfriendly does not mean uncompatible).
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had conventional stuff, and when I discovered command/control, I never looked back! I've sold most of the conventional locomotives, but I have about 25 command/control engines of various flavors.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

actually i agree with John there. i as well sold off some DC locomotives after moving to digital, keeping only the gems (well, gems in my opinion). reduced the collection size but IMHO gained in quality. 


PS 
and then eventually restored and even surpassed on the size, lol
this is a long term hobby.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks again guys. Deep down (not that deep) and for the long haul
I will enjoy DCC better. Correct me if I am wrong but I am catching a
drift that maybe I shouldn't try to add decoders to my locos and buy
factory DCC engines, as a couple of you said you sold your DC engines 
and bought DCC ready locos. I don't have a clue and would rather not 
make too many mistakes. I do have that BLI and it will work fine with
DC or DCC. It was nice to just take it out of the box and have sound 
ready to go.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, I'd consider the upgrades on a case by case basis, some engines will be easier than others to convert. I'd start by looking at your favorite locomotives and seeing what you can do with those first.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I can imagine that there is just not much room to
put a decoder and a speaker in some (many) of them.
Can speaker be mounted in tender on a steamer?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You can mount the whole shooting match in a tender if you have the desire.  Many O-scale TMCC installations are done that way.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I am going to both add and clarify some things that others have said as well as add my own. 

First off DCC is really your best option nowadays if running multiple locos at once especially 80 of them. As for the right DCC system I love ESU but they come with one side effect that I don't know if exists or not. I know with the Bachmann Dynamis it has a single stop button that cuts all track power. This works fine with all other decoders except Soundtraxx Tsunamis. The thing is to trigger the engine startup and shutdown the decoder requires a two phase emergency stop which the Dynamis does not have. Now ESU's actual products might but they have not replied to me yet. I find they have the best displays, handhelds, and expandability out of them all.
Here is an example of their flagship DCC system.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digitale-steuerung/ecos-50200-dcc-system/

Its a magnificant system but that one runs you close to 600 just like the Digitrax Super Chief Extra but you get so much more. Now here is the one I am planning on getting.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digitale-steuerung/navigator/

This system only runs 300 and is a 2.5 amp system which should run 5 trains easy. It is exactly the same as the Dynamis because ESU built the Dynamis system so the handheld is just as nice. This system comes with a nice addon as it is already wireless without needing to spend an extra 100 for it like Digitrax. I am only getting the ESU system if it does have a two phase Emergency stop or else I am going to go NCE as they have the second best handheld out their in my opinion. 

Now for a large layout it does not matter your amps you just have to run more feeders. The actual Amp part comes in with the number of engines you run because the voltage never changes. So for running 80 trains with 1 amp powering two normally you would need 40 total amps or 8 5 amp boosters. Now if you want to run 80 locomotives at once that is your call but most DCC systems can only recognize 40 engines and their names so some will have to have the same road and model for them and use the same address or else the other 40 will not be recognized by the command station. Adding DCC is one thing. It is difficult to get right on the first or second install but after that it gets farely easy. Now adding sound to that is a real pain in the you know what. The space requirements are very demanding for locomotives as most were designed to use really thin one layer PCBs with maybe one or two resistors and that it so the most of it is weight that has to be removed to house the new decoder. I have a thread about how to do all types of DCC installs on all types of locomotives with all types of decoders and offer to install the DCC or DCC and sound decoders into them for you if you don't think it can be done by you. Here it is.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5603
Yes decoders are going to cost you a nice fortune for 80 locomotives but depending on what ones you get it makes a big difference. I prefer Digitrax decoders mainly the DH123D's for my DCC only installs and QSI or Soundtraxx Tsunami for my DCC and sound. Now QSI currently does not make aftermarket add in DCC and sound decoders so you are stuck with Tsunami but they have the best sound out of them all from what I have found. The Digitrax soundbugs might be good to but they require a 100 dollar programmer to change and add sound files.

All DCC and sound locomotives have their decoders and speakers mounted in the tender. I know of no locomotives that have had their speakers and decoders installed in the engine itself. All tenders even those of 4-4-0s have enough space for sound decoders so you are good on that part. 

Another thing you will want to consider is DCC block detection and signal detection. This si a nice thing to add as it has working signals that change as a train enters and exits a block. A very neat thing but also a hard thing to do properly. I will let someone else chime in on that aspect. 

Hope that helps with it all and the actual speed loss from DC to DCC is not the system is is the voltage that the DC system uses compared to the DCC system which is made to run at a more prototypical speed and not at a slot car speed.


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## heyjoojoo (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm just getting back into model trains and have really considered going with a starter DCC set such as Digitrax Zephyr one. But I've heard that this DZ seems to experience "memory loss" issues. I'm a little torn but many people seem to recommend this one over others...


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

The Digitrax Zephyer has had some issues with its memory being wiped by accident or not even intended and happening. It is not in any way a handheld, it is just like the standard DC controllers in terms of what it is. It is just a little bigger. I think the actaul using of features and controls on the Digitrax Zephyer are a pain so I would recomend to either go with a system that comes with a wireless controller or has a tethered one.


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

I guess one could argue forever which system is the best - I went with the Digitrax Super Chief Extra myself - but what it all boils down to is what you're comfortable with. I was in the same boat you are in. I'm a steam engine freak and have lots of DC engines that I've collected over the years without any regard as to what I would do with them. I know once I played around with DCC for awhile I was hooked; and sound - well that's like bread and butter. I gotta have sound. There's nothing better than tooling down the track with a Big Boy or a 4-8-4. Anyway, most DC HO scale locos that can run on American track can be converted to DCC - if you're creative enough. In its basic form you' re looking at four wires; red and black to the track and gray and orange to the motor. The other wires are for FX (lights). I've done a bunch of them. However, sometimes it's just not worth the effort. Either the motor can not be easily isolated, there's just no room for the wires and / or decoder, or the loco itself is so light and cheaply made it can't get out of it's own way. So the first step is to go through your collection and weed out the wall hangers. The next step is pick out a simple loco with a big empty tender. A "simple loco" means one that is held together with a few easy to get at screws and doesn't have complex drive rods and lots of add on details. Look it over carefully to plan where the decoder and wires will go, then have at it. Once you have a few of these simple conversions under your belt, you'll know what to look for. You'll be able to tell right off if a loco is worth converting.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks for all the info. I have pretty much well for sure decided to
leave DC behind and go DCC. It just makes too much sense. My big 
layout is not built yet. And no I don't plan to run 80 engines at once.
It won't be that big of a layout. Some good ideas guys. I am sure out
of that 80 engines some will not be converted. I would like to be able 
to run 12 to 15 engines at once, 4 consists. Like I said I have been reading.
2 or 3 amp system will not run that, and I actually understand what was
in the last few posts. Thanks again. I was choking on what a 5 amp
system costs and then to go duplex or wireless. Yikes. I am going to bite
the bullet, save a little money up and do it. Wife even said get what you
want the first time. Leaning right now towards the super chief. Will look
the ESU stuff over also. I have had trains on and off for over 20 years so
its not a passing fancy. I know everyone likes the NCE throttle. No doubt
it is nice also. I think digitrax has gotten a little easier to program engines.
And yes, after I do a few converts it will be much easier. I think I will start
with an athearn. Plenty of instructions here and on youtube videos. Looking
forward to it all. Only $20.00 more for an 8 amp system over the 5amp. Power
supply will be more then. It never ends.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Oh, and sound. Yes, getting hooked on that also. This year I bought a
BLI diesel with QSI sound and it is cool. I have a control module that lets
me change cv values and volume for the diesel engine, bell, horn, start-
up and shutdown, and other sounds all on DC. With the control module
I can turn cab lights on or off, Front or rear headlight on or off. I can get 
an oral speed readout. It will do STC or RTC. I can do a disconnect and
run sound and no power to motor (neutral). And DCC is supposed to get
even more out of the model. Woo Hoo !!!


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Yup, that's what got me looking at diesels too. I'm a steam guy. Diesels look all the same to me. Once I heard the sound of a BLI AC6000 diesel with QSI sound I just had to have one. It's the sound that got me.


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## victory12 (Nov 12, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I had conventional stuff, and when I discovered command/control, I never looked back! I've sold most of the conventional locomotives, but I have about 25 command/control engines of various flavors.


actually i agree with John there. i as well sold off some DC locomotives after moving to digital, keeping only the gems (well, gems in my opinion). reduced the collection size but IMHO gained in quality.


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