# New Guy, Need Layout Feedback



## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

I am completely new to N scale and pretty much model railroading. I had some Lionel and HO sets when I was a kid but this is my first dive into this as an adult and building something that is permanent or semi-permanent.

I did some research starting out and decided to go with the n-trak module standard. I did it mainly for the flexibility. If I need to move the layout I wanted something that could be easily transported. I also wanted to make it so if I want to expand I can. There are a few local clubs that do n-trak and if I decide to be part of that I will have a module(s) that can fit into their layouts.

I started by snagging what I could cheap of Craigslist and E-Bay by buying up people forgotten projects. Got a ton of track, cork, buildings, scenery materials plus 4 locomotives and some rolling stock. 

I got three module bases built, a standard 2x4 module and then two loopback modules for the ends. I used the Atlas track planner software to layout my track plan. I think I have a layout that will work. I attached a picture of it. Looking for any feedback on the layout and if I missed anything or something wouldn't work the way I have it. I have a bunch of flextrack so the final curves and layout might change slightly. The drawing just uses standard Atlas tracks.

assuming my plans are good, I am at the point to start building ramps and laying some track. Was thinking of putting a 1/2" or 1/4" layer of foam over the whole base. Just to give some flexibility for any water features or anything like that. I have adjustable legs on the bottom and will still be n-trak height compliant if I add the foam. I know some use foam, some don't and there are varying opinions. Should I do it?

BTW, I think I am going to go old school and not do DCC. I know you have more control, easier to wire and can have cool sounds and lights but I want to learn how to do the old wiring techniques and then possible upgrade later.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. Let me know what you think before I start permanently gluing it down.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

What I see so far is Darn nice.
Dan


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## Schwinn68 (Dec 22, 2016)

looks good to me! It seems a lot of people like the 2" thick foam so they can have deeper water features. I like how much interest you managed to pack into that space. Kinda makes me think I might like the smaller scale for my own.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Nice looking track plan but I think I see a reversing loop on the right side inner track.
To check this follow the track around all routs and see if you come back onto a track going the other way.
The #1 track goes around the inner loop and you can come back to #1 going the other way.

If so this will require some special wiring, not too difficult in DCC but might be a challenge in DC. I'm not a DC guy. 

I used one inch foam on my layout and really like it.

Have fun with it and keep us posted on progress.

Magic


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## Tony35 (Mar 18, 2016)

You are off to a good start :smilie_daumenpos:

I will toss in my DCC .02 here, if you are even thinking about going that route someday wire it up now then the switch is easy peasy down the road
Another DCC plus is if you want to consist multiple locos together you can speed match them 
And one more DCC plus is you can have trains going different directions on the same track 
You can be working the yard and have the outside loops running without effecting direction
JM.02 of course

Keep up the good work


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## 89Suburban (Jan 4, 2017)

Welcome, looking good.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I trust you have not yet fired up your layout.

If you had, you likely would find a magnificent
short circuit. You do have 2 reverse loop
situations. They are created by the crossovers
in your middle straightaways. 

Crossovers are mostly used to move a train
from one parallel track to another. In your
case, you are crossing from one 'side' of your
oval to the other and that creates an
electrical short.

As mentioned, if you redraw your tracks using
a red and a black (or other 2 colors) pen you'll see
that when the crossover points are set to cross
you have a red touching a black...in several
places. If you plan to keep this layout I can tell
you how to wire it, but it is going to be fairly
complex for a DC system. In addition it will
be somewhat awkward to use. But, a piece of cake if you
go DCC. It's fully automatic, you won't even
know it's there.

DCC wiring in general is utterly simple, basically,
two wires to the track and no switches to monkey
with. You can run 2, 3 or more trains at the
same time with individual control of each. For DC you'll
likely have several isolated blocks, 2 or more power packs that must go thru several panel switches, and
a rats nest of wiring. Then you'll have to switch
all that back and forth so you can run more than
one train at a time. 

You can convert your locos for about 20.00 
or less, each. But you would need a main
DCC controller...they're available used also...
probably for less than 100.00. And if you
keep the layout shown you'd need a pair
of DCC reverse loop controllers, about 40.00 
or less each. 

DCC is so much easier to operate than DC.
If you can use a TV remote you can be a pro
right out of the box.

As to foam: Yes, you should have some type
as a cover over your wood. If you plan any
'lower' areas such as a creek, ditch, or pond
you would be wise to use the 1 or 2 inch type.
If not, you could use the 1/4" paper covered foam
sheets from Walmart craft section. It comes in
White, useful for painting prior to landscaping,
or Black, which I use under yard tracks. It has
a smooth surface you can use for streets,
roads and platforms. A nice base for scenic effects.

Don


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Don makes some good points, if you go DC you'll just makes things harder going. DCC just has so much more to offer and one thing is simplified wiring and you'll enjoy the added features it offers. The problem you might have is if the stuff you've bought is old some might not be easy to convert unless you have a lathe or access to one.

Whatever you decide good luck.


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

I hear what you guys are saying about the DC vs DCC. I laid out how I think the blocks would be for a DC setup. See picture below. The middle and right modules, B and C are pretty straight forward. Not really too complicated. It will take a little switching but not too bad. The center section is fixed on how it has to be wired to be N-Trak compliant. There are 5 separate lines, 4 main lines and a siding. Would still require 5 power supplies??? Where this gets tricky is on the rail yard on the left. I simplified a few things but it is still complex. Would be much simpler with DCC, probably cheaper too but I like a challenge. I think it would be fun to get this all wired up and working. Build a cool control panel. I think it would work good too. You could be building trains on the blue and red lines while running trains on the green and yellow. There are a couple spots where things can get congested and overlap but it can be dealt with. That is where expansion and additional modules would come in.

Here is the block layout I came up with. The white circles are where I would isolated the rails. Next thing I will work on is an actual wiring diagram.


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

Here are the locomotives I have acquired. From left to right they are a Kato, Bachmann, Spectrum and Atlas. They all run pretty good except the Bachmann is a bit sluggish. I am guessing it might be out of a cheap set or something. Not sure how hard it would be to convert these to DCC if I went that route. I have watched several videos on doing the conversion and its mostly about fitting it in there.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Atlas turnouts on N-track?*



thompsondl said:


> Here are the locomotives I have acquired. From left to right they are a Kato, Bachmann, Spectrum and Atlas. They all run pretty good except the Bachmann is a bit sluggish. I am guessing it might be out of a cheap set or something. Not sure how hard it would be to convert these to DCC if I went that route. I have watched several videos on doing the conversion and its mostly about fitting it in there.


thompsondl;

One possible problem, that has not been mentioned yet, is your use of Atlas turnouts on an N-track module. You might want to get an N-track manual, if you don't already have one. N-track does not like turnouts in their show layouts. They discourage turnouts in general, and state that "any turnouts should be of the Peco type". Atlas turnouts are no where near as reliable as Peco ones. Another N-track rule is "The second time it fails, it gets pulled out." So if you plan to exhibit your N-track module, you may want to research their requirements, and possibly make some changes.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree, you have a very interesting layout with lots of
continuous running possibilities but also offering
good switching operations. 

I don't know what N-trak specifications might include,
but I do know that the middle section of your layout
with the 3 main lines
connected by crossovers is not going to operate
as you anticipate...those crossovers are creating
short circuits. (Reverse loops).

Before you even begin planning your wiring please
do yourself a favor, draw out that center section
main lines and also the left and right outer
loops using Red for the right rail and Black for the other. 
You are going to see that 1 or 2 right rails are red and the
others are black. Any time
that a red rail touches a black rail you have a
short circuit. You will see that that happens when
the points of your crossovers are set to cross.

It may make the problem more clear if you draw a
simple oval, using Red for the outside rail, black
for the inner. Now connect the top track of the
oval with the bottom track using 2 turnouts. See how
the red rail runs into the black. This in a more
complex track design is what you have in your
center section.

The way around this problem, I suspect, will be 
contrary to N-trak specs since, I assume, they
are intended to make all N-trak modules
compatible with all others. To make it work the
right rail of all three main line tracks in the
center section must be Red. That would not
be good for N-trak. What are N-trak
specs regarding the crossovers? If we
eliminated one or more the problem the
would be lessened.

There are, of course, other wiring considerations
but this center section is the main concern.

Check this out and let us know what you think.

Don


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

Either I'm not understanding something or maybe I wasn't clear in my description of my block diagram. Where I have the white circles I will use the plastic, non-conducting rail joiners to keep the blocks isolated from each other. The colors denote one continuous section. Going by that there are actually no complete loops at all. In order to complete a loop you would have to cross over onto another block controlled by a different power supply. 

After I just typed that, maybe i understand the problem. Is it typical to have the same power supply/cab control the train from block to block and you just flip a switch to direct the power to the block you are on? If that is the case I will need to rethink this.

The n-trak specification calls for each of the three main lines to be electronically isolated. For cross overs you use the plastic rail joiners as I described. Or at least how I think they are saying.

Like I said I am new to this I might be completely confused.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

It looks like you have put non conductive joiners on the spur tracks, you only need them on the crossovers, so you won't get power on those spurs.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, you need the capability of one power pack to
power each train through the DC layout. Your control
panel would need the correct switches to do this.
If you have only 2 power packs, DPDT switches
for each block would suffice. If you have 3 or more
power packs a rotary (or similar) switch for each block would be
needed. Depending on the number of blocks you
isolate, you'll have a number of switches and a lot
of wire. (keep in mind you'll also have a ton of
wire for all those turnouts).

Using insulated joiners at turnouts in your three mains,
isolated by N-truk specs,
will be fine as long as the two mains connected by
the turnouts are the same polarization when a train
runs through them. You will have to flip switches
ahead of the loco to keep it going.

While you could set the various switches and
turnouts to permit continuous running there is
a great probability that one will be wrong and
the train stops.

Using your layout drawing let a finger be a
train going around it. Each time you come to
a new isolated section, you are going to have
to flip a switch. That could work if only one
train was running...but if you had two going...
you would be flipping switches ahead of each.
That's going to keep you pretty busy.

You are going to have a good investment in this
quite complex layout. I fear that you are going
to be frustrated when it comes to actually running
trains. As several of us who have been
through all of this before have advised, 
you should go the one step that will
resolve all of this discussion...use a DCC system.
That does away with most of the 'blocks',
multiple power packs, all those
switches, the reverse loop problems, and tons of
wiring. It would give you individual control of several
trains. You could have continuous running, while
doing switching.

Even with DCC though, that center section is
going to be the electrical trouble spot considering
N-trak specs.

Don


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

Ok, I agree. Once I started laying out the blocks and the wiring it became too complicated. I am also worried about the center cross overs and all the switching that will be required. So I will redesign. 

My plan will be to take the green line on the right C module and connect it to the red line. Also on the C module loop the yellow line back to the blue line. I will take out all the cross overs on the center module. That will create two independent loops that will not short, not require any return loop wiring and can have two trains running continuously without interruption. I will move all the switching to the yard on the left. I will design it so I can extend it onto another module if I want to have longer storage tracks. The center main lines will be separate blocks so I can switch them to the yard and use them to build trains. I will still do it DC at first but i should be able to do it with only 2 power supplies or 3 if I want to have one for the yard. That should also make my center module more n-trak compatible. 

Should have a new design in a few days.


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

Also. Thanks for all the feedback. Exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for and definitely will lead to a better layout.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The changes you propose do seem to have eliminated
all of the problems we have discussed. I was genuinely
afraid that you were going to have an unworkable
layout for a while there.

Looking forward to seeing the revised track drawing.

Don


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

ok, made some changes. I have two continuous loops now. I get rid of all the crossovers in the center module. It's pretty clean now. I added a couple crossovers between the two loops on the left module. I have a reversing loop on the right module. I also have a connector that reverses back between the loops.

So I should be able to run both loops simultaneously. If I want to go from one loop to the other I can and I can also reverse direction on either loop. There will still be quite a bit of switching to do if I want to reverse direction but its only an option that is available.

Now the cons. The right module looks like spaghetti. But I think once I have the elevations in there and scenery it will look ok. Plus my diagram I have some of the parallel tracks spaced kind of wide. I can tighten them up and make it look a little better. Some of my grades a pretty steep to get the clearances. They are in the 4% range. I'm using a minimum of 2" for any track clearance. I have some 9" radiuses. Not a huge problem but I wish I could go larger but can't really get around it on the narrow layout bases.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I got dizzy trying to follow the mains around
the layout. I'm not at all clear. but I think I am
seeing more than one reverse loop, maybe 3. Because of
the tracks 'changing colors' it's difficult to see the
two continuous run 'ovals' you mention.

Can you change so that continuous 'oval' A is one
color and 'oval' B is another?

Since your yard is in the middle and an extension of
the middle module you necessarily would have crossovers.
Are they not there?

But, again, you still should draw this out using
the Red for Right and Black for left rails. That's
the best guide to correct wiring.

I'll let the N scalers comment of the curve radii, but
you may have spinning wheels on your locos with a
4% grade.

Don


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

traction fan said:


> thompsondl;
> 
> One possible problem, that has not been mentioned yet, is your use of Atlas turnouts on an N-track module. You might want to get an N-track manual, if you don't already have one. N-track does not like turnouts in their show layouts. They discourage turnouts in general, and state that "any turnouts should be of the Peco type". Atlas turnouts are no where near as reliable as Peco ones. Another N-track rule is "The second time it fails, it gets pulled out." So if you plan to exhibit your N-track module, you may want to research their requirements, and possibly make some changes.
> 
> Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


+1 on that... I'd skip atlas turnouts.

Also, It seems like you have actually ADDED more reverse loops in your second draft.

and a 4% grade may be too much for N scale. make sure you try it first, before you nail/glue anything..


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## thompsondl (Dec 9, 2016)

I cleaned it up, not sure if it is any easier to follow, but I have it colored so there is a blue loop and a green loop. I was able to eliminate all the 4% grades. There are a couple 3% left but I might be able to tweak those and get them further down. I think my latest design looks pretty good. Doesn't look as crowded anymore.

I put together a diagram that simplifies the track so you don't have to trace out all the loops. I also added the track polarity and wiring so I could see where I have issues. I am sure it could be significantly simplified. I put two DPDT on each block so I could switch cabs and polarity. Most of the polarity switches are over kill. I traced out a few difference scenarios and only found that maybe half would be useful. 

By keeping it segmented for N-Trak it adds a lot more blocks. I could just join them together but I like having all the options. With the new design I can just set all the switches and run 2 trains without having to touch anything or I could get crazy and route trains all over the place and flip a ton of switches.

I got it with the Peco turnouts. I have a bunch of the atlas turnouts. Don't have a lot invested in them but I have more than required to complete this layout. What I will probably do is buy a couple Peco turnouts for the center N-Trak module and then use the Atlas on the end loop back modules. They will just be my personal use with no plans to use in any N-Trak show display so if they fail it will just be me getting frustrated.

I think before I start actually permanently attaching anything I will go to the local N-Trak club meeting next month and find out what their requirements are.

(There might be some errors on that wiring diagram. My first time laying something out like. I will check and double check to make sure I didn't miss anything or screw something up.)


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You have certainly put in some work on your
layout and wiring. Very nice drawings.

I see the stock price of the switch and wire making companies
hitting record high levels though. 

Maybe one day we will sell you on DCC which would
eliminate all those switches. You'd need only one controller,
a 2 wire buss powering all of the tracks and automatic
reverse loop controllers to maintain phase (polarity). Then
you could run any number of trains, each individually
controlled.

Don


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Taking a step back, first definitely get rid of the atlas snap switch turnouts, all of them! They were garbage from day 1 and ever since. Unload them for whatever you can get for them and say a prayer for the next poor sucker that ends up with them. They are nothing but frustration and headaches and can easily damage your trains and power system. It's not a case of if, but how quickly... I understand you would like to see trains run, but there is good reason they are not allowed in N track modules.
Why so stubborn about DCC? What you are proposing to invest in parts, materials, more controllers etc not to mention time and frustration trying to get it all working reliably and the sore fingers from flipping switches in time will certainly diminish the satisfaction of watching trains run.
I highly recommend (and use) you invest in an NCE Power cab system. Everything you need in one box for about discounted 170.00. Adding up the individual prices of all you will need for your DC setup will quickly surpass that figure. The NCE Power cab is the second most popular system with plenty of users and help, should you ever need it available online. Digitrax, the #1 system is far more complex, you have to buy everything piecemeal, and is far less trouble free. They just got a head start by being the first US company to offer all the components from one source, and then used a brilliant marketing strategy of giving free systems to established clubs and offering their members below cost pricing on home systems to build a large user base. Fortunately most clubs had an electronics wizard or two to set it up and trouble shoot it for all. NCE is a "Johnny come lately" with a far better system , and the user base has grown exponentially because of word of mouth of satisfied users (like me), not give aways, until they are nipping at Digitrax's heels. 
I had my system up and running (and easily programming) trains in less than 20 minutes, and I only have a self taught basic electronics background, I just followed their simple to understand single page instructions!

PS: definitely add at least a 1" layer of extruded foam (the pink or blue stuff, NOT the white crumbly stuff to your module tops. It will quiet the wooden drums you have now, will give some (shallow) depth to develop contours below track level, and a good base to lay track on directly (for yards etc) or to glue roadbed to.
Since you have used the Atlas track planning software, try downloading the free Xtrackcad track planning software version for your operating system. Much more versatile than the atlas, doesn't restrict you to one brand of track and allows use of flex track, set grade and radius limits. reads elevation and crossing clearances, set structures and build basic scenery, and very importantlycreates real life transitional easement blends between curves and straights that removes that toy like amusement park ride effect where the train "snaps or whips" into a curve. Again a very satisfied user, and always willing to help. Here is my current layout 18x 8' N scale done in xtrack. The lower level contains 2 helixes, a large staging and classification yard and a reverse loop.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The guy hasn't posted in over four years. I doubt he reads your post.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

DMAN it! I hate when these old posts get dredged up.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

I assume that it's the "Recommended Reading" feature that causes this . . .


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

GNfan said:


> I assume that it's the "Recommended Reading" feature that causes this . . .


Most likely.

That and the fact that, unlike many other forums, this one displays no warning when you try to post on an overages thread. That would be one nice feature to see implemented (Xenforo software has it -- some other sites I visit that use Xenforo software have the feature).


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Not really too much trouble to glance at the posted date before diving in…..


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Old_Hobo said:


> Not really too much trouble to glance at the posted date before diving in…..


Too easy to miss, until you get burned once or twice. 

And that's why it happens all the time, especially with low-time posters.


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