# Beginner here....question about Woodland Scenics Grand Valley Layout



## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

Was thinking about buying and building this kit as a beginner. Trying to determine what train might match that layout. Does that layout represent a certain era/railroad/location?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Not really. The layout could be set anywhere from the late 19th century to the present day, and really just about anywhere in North America except the great plains or the desert southwest. This is especially true if you buy and install your own structures rather than the package sold for it.

The layout uses 18" radius curves, sharp turnouts, and some tight clearances, so you would need to use shorter locomotives and rolling stock: 4 axle diesels, steamers with 6 or fewer drivers, and rolling stock under 50 scale feet in length. 

I have only two objections to those kits, and neither of these things may matter a fig to you: there isn't any room for your own creativity and imagination, and you're locked in to using their materials and methods, which you may find less to your taste and ability than other techniques. And it's a big chunk of change to drop all at once, especially with the track, structures, and small details sold separately, but I guess you know that.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

As a 'one box solution' I guess it could be seen as a good idea. Don't forget you'll need track, a control system and of course a train and stock. If you like the idea of a 'rabbit warren' layout with trains poping in and out of tunnels its fine but with about half of it covered there's not much left for operational use. This is the meat and potatoes of model railroading once youre done with building. There doesn't seem to be any access to the covered track to deal with derails and cleaning.

I know you didn't ask for a critique and sorry to sound out the negative side but I thought as a beginner you should maybe consider other alternatives before settling for this.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

if you want to use big steam engines, i would NOT buy this layout.


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## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks for the advice guys. Yeah, I've looked at the pros and cons of building one of these layout kits. I just like how that layout looks, and I believe it will be something good for a beginner to just get the feel of how to do things. And I would think it would be cheaper to buy the kit than to buy the items individually to build a similar layout. And I plan to use a smaller diesel engine that will handle the 18" turns.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The Grand Valley layout is attractive, neat and
interesting looking.

It would be useful if you wanted to own a layout
for display in a store or some such. But it leaves
out much of what model railroading is about.

This layout is basically intended for continuous
running trains. Consider, how long are you going
to be happy just sitting there watching a train go
around and around. A truly enjoyable layout does
have tracks that trains can run on, but also, provide
more switching action capabilities. The more you
interact with your layout, the more you are going
to enjoy it.

To me, paying that much money for a rigid design
leaves out much of what the hobby is about. Many
of us enjoy designing and building the benchwork
then adding our own layout design. 

You might want to study the layouts in the Layout
Design Forum, many are shown in the various threads.
Look at them as 'idea starters'. You might like 
a main line idea from layout A, but switching or
other features from layouts B & C. Create your own
design. 

Don


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## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks DonR. Since I'm limited on space, a 4x8 layout is as big as I can go. Do you have a 4X8 layout that you would recommend for a beginner that would also provide the capability that you talk about?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Because of the easy availability of plywood sheets in
the 4 X 8 size, there are any number of layouts designed
for it in the Layout design forum. 

One suggestion, because the 4' width limits your 
curve radius, could you spare the space to make it
5 X 8 or 10 or ??. Those added inches enable you to
have 26" radius and the ability to run most any loco
on the market. Also, maybe an L shaped, or U
shaped layout, all depending on space available.
But each offers new ways to run your tracks.

Even if you start out with a simple oval following the
edge of the benchwork, you can find interesting 
ways to serve industries and install a yard as parts
of some posted layouts in the Design Forum. I like
to see spur tracks going through a crossing off the
main line. You can also create a passing siding with
spurs off each end to serve industries. 

To make your trackwork easier, think flex track. With
it's ability to bend to your design you have greater
freedom in your layout design. Sectional and proprietary
tracks on roadbed limit you to what they make only, and
it's not compatible with most other makes of track
and turnouts.

Don


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

My advice is, if you like the Woodland Scenics layout, build it from scratch.
1.) Your layout will show your individuality.
2.) Yo're not limited to a "cookie-cutter" looking layout.
3.) You will save a big chunk of change, W.S. ain't cheap.
4.)You will be so proud of your own work, you 'll be glad you didn't go with them.

A 4 x 8 is a really good start. That's what most model railroaders go with.
Yes, your radii is limited, but not you ideas.
You can Google HO model railroads 4 x 8, and not get any sleep the next night from all the layouts that pop up.

EDIT: just read Don's suggestion to go with a 5 x 9. Great idea! That opens so many more possibilities.


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## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks guys. Those are great suggestions. Maybe I can spare another foot or two, or i guess i could consider N scale.


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## Rock022 (Jan 2, 2017)

mlf I had the exact same question, but had not asked. Thanks.

Also, thank you all for the advice.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mlf said:


> Thanks DonR. Since I'm limited on space, a 4x8 layout is as big as I can go. Do you have a 4X8 layout that you would recommend for a beginner that would also provide the capability that you talk about?


You might want to think out of the box (or rectangle) a little. If you have a 4x8 with a 2 foot wide aisle all around, you have 32 square feet of layout in 96 square feet. Building a two foot wide donut shaped layout in that same area gives you 62 square feet of layout space, with room to selectively make it wider and therefore even more area, in that same 96 square feet of space.

You still have a loop, but now you have plenty of space to add sidings so that your trains actually have something to do.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mlf said:


> And I would think it would be cheaper to buy the kit than to buy the items individually to build a similar layout.


Well, sort of. Buying the kit is much cheaper than buying all of the items from Woodland Scenics individually, yes. But there are alternatives to the WS products and methods that are much cheaper (the amount of landscaping you can do with one $30 2" extruded foam insulation panel is quite impressive, for instance), and for some, easier to use.

Additionally, going a la carte enables you to buy things when you're ready for them, as opposed to dropping a huge chunk of change all at once, which gives you a better cash flow position, if not a better total spend.

Don't get me wrong, I like WS products. I just want to make sure you really HAVE thought through the alternatives.


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## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

That's great advice CTValley. I'm definitely still doing some research. The last thing I want to do is rush into the hobby, get frustrated or bored, and wind up not liking the hobby. I've kinda got bitten by the bug right now, and definitely think this is a hobby I would really enjoy.

I guess I would pretty much be limited to one of the smaller 4-axle diesels if my layout has 18" radius curves with the grand valley huh? Will most all ho diesel loco's handle 22" radius curves? Do you have any loco manufacturers you prefer? Atlas? Walthers?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, 18" curves will pretty much limit you to 4 wheel
truck diesels and smaller steamers. 

Some of the larger locos are claimed to negotiate
such curves but there's another factor. On tight
curves of this nature the loco and car ends jut outward
and the middle of the loco or car hangs over awkwardly.
It just does not look right. That upgrade to 22" will
mean a lot if you can go with it.

Today, most any new locos you find on the market
are quite good. Some of us have favorite brands but when
you get down to the nitty gritty, they're all about
the same good quality. In general, if you like the
looks of a certain loco, and accept the price, go for it. The pricier locos are usually more highly detailed. Most of the makes back their products with warranty.

Used locos made in the last 15 or so, likely will also
be a worthwhile purchase usually at quite a bit
less than new ones. But it's always a good
idea to test them before buying.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Research now, buy & build later.*



mlf said:


> That's great advice CTValley. I'm definitely still doing some research. The last thing I want to do is rush into the hobby, get frustrated or bored, and wind up not liking the hobby. I've kinda got bitten by the bug right now, and definitely think this is a hobby I would really enjoy.
> 
> I guess I would pretty much be limited to one of the smaller 4-axle diesels if my layout has 18" radius curves with the grand valley huh? Will most all ho diesel loco's handle 22" radius curves? Do you have any loco manufacturers you prefer? Atlas? Walthers?


mlf;

I advise doing a lot more research before you spend your money, and definitely before you start construction. The book "Introduction to Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson, would be a good place to start. It covers all the basics in easy text and photos. You can order it from https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/products/books 
You asked about plans for a 4'x8' Layout. The same company publishes a book called "101 track plans". several are for 4'x8' tables.
As for going to N-scale, there are two ways of looking at that.
1) I can fit(cram) twice as much track into that 4'x8' space.
2) I can go easy on the track, and have a more realistic model railroad in which the mountains really are higher than the trains. There is room for sidings so I can do some switching. I can use 18" radius curves and run anything I want, because in N-scale, 18" is a wide, generous curve that will handle any N-scale locomotive made.
CTValley; has an excellent point about Re-thinking the 4'x8' idea. A model railroad is supposed to resemble a real railroad just scaled down to a small size. Real railroads are very long (5-1000+miles) but not very wide 100 feet would be typical. This super long very skinny item does not fit a shape who's length is only twice its width. Cutting the 4x8 into a pair of 2x8s gives it a new length that is eight times its new, narrower width. That's going to be a better shape to represent the real thing in. Of course, you may want to widen the table at both ends. This will let you build the loops needed to have continuous running.
You don't have to do that though. Many fine model railroads, and virtually all real railroads, run point-to-point. The trains are broken up and switched at each end. The locomotives can be turned on a turntable, or wye. Using such a layout of narrow shelves, it's often possible to use the train room for a second purpose. My N-scale layout is shaped this way. It occupies two walls of my garage. We can still park a car in it and use it as a workshop. If you build a shelf style layout in a room, it may be able to go around all four walls. Using a fold down section across the door would allow continuous running without loops, or wide sections at all.
So, you see, there's more than one way to build a model railroad! Do some reading, and some thinking, and some drawing, to figure out what way is best for you. 

Welcome to the forum and to a great hobby;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Shadow001 (Dec 15, 2016)

Mlf,

I asked my wife in November to buy me a beginner set. I still only have track sitting on a couple pieces of plywood sitting on sawhorses. Part of the reason is I had to clean out part of the garage before I could start building my bench work. 
I watch as many video's and read as much as I can in my spare time. I read as much as I can on this forum everyday. I have probably changed my mind on something, about what I am going to do, everyday. Somethings are constant and now that I have decided how I am going to do my bench work, I will just go from there. I don't think you have to have every thing figured out before you start. Although it would probably be easier if you had all your layout figured out. Soon I hope to have enough track to start laying it out and be able to make those decisions. But I can guarantee that will change. :laugh:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Well, you have to start somewhere.*



Shadow001 said:


> Mlf,
> 
> I asked my wife in November to buy me a beginner set. I still only have track sitting on a couple pieces of plywood sitting on sawhorses. Part of the reason is I had to clean out part of the garage before I could start building my bench work.
> I watch as many video's and read as much as I can in my spare time. I read as much as I can on this forum everyday. I have probably changed my mind on something, about what I am going to do, everyday. Somethings are constant and now that I have decided how I am going to do my bench work, I will just go from there. I don't think you have to have every thing figured out before you start. Although it would probably be easier if you had all your layout figured out. Soon I hope to have enough track to start laying it out and be able to make those decisions. But I can guarantee that will change. :laugh:


Shadow001;

You're right. At some point each of us has to just start something and be ready to make changes as we go along. Hopefully we do some research, and track plans drawn to scale, first. Ideally, benchwork should be built to follow the path of the railroad, instead of trying to fit the railroad into some arbitrary size/shape benchwork; but in real life, things are seldom ideal. The benchwork, and the whole railroad, have to fit in the space we have available. What, and how much, space you can use for a railroad varies wildly with the home you have, and your marital status!:laugh:
If you are building your benchwork to fit your situation, it's a good idea to keep the benchwork as easy to modify as possible. A set of light, simple, frame sections; held together with bolts, and topped with foam, is about as good as it gets.
Don't worry about changing your mind about what you want to build. That's a very natural part of the learning process. Which must mean I've been "learning"
for about the last forty years, because I keep changing stuff!

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

Well, you guys have talked me out of building the grand valley layout kit. I've decided I'm going to attempt the Virginian layout from Model Railroader. Anyone here attempted that layout? Are the videos on model railroader detailed and thorough? Any suggestions on the build would be welcome. Plan to start the benchwork this weekend. My carpenter skills are really good so i should have no problem with that.


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## Shadow001 (Dec 15, 2016)

Not sure if anyone was really trying to talk you out of the grand valley layout kit, I think everyone was just trying to let you know some of the pros and cons. It is your layout make sure you are doing what you want to do.


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## mlf (Dec 30, 2016)

Yeah, i realize no one was trying to talk me out of anything. I just thought about all the comments everyone made and decided i would prefer a layout that allowed the train(s) to actually do something.


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## Shadow001 (Dec 15, 2016)

:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mlf said:


> Yeah, i realize no one was trying to talk me out of anything. I just thought about all the comments everyone made and decided i would prefer a layout that allowed the train(s) to actually do something.


I think you will be happier with that decision. Most people get tired of just watching a train go around and around. It's usually better if you don't have to actually build a layout to figure that out.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mlf said:


> Well, you guys have talked me out of building the grand valley layout kit. I've decided I'm going to attempt the Virginian layout from Model Railroader. Anyone here attempted that layout? Are the videos on model railroader detailed and thorough? Any suggestions on the build would be welcome. Plan to start the benchwork this weekend. My carpenter skills are really good so i should have no problem with that.


THEY built it. I think you will find lots of "how to" articles and videos on their website.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

One of my earlier layouts was simulare in design to that on a 4x8 with a 4x 6 L off of it. They were connected with two turnouts. This allowed continuous running on one part while switching in another. It was my design though. If you like that kit I see no reason you could not build it with a modification for future expansion to an L. It will take time to learn. One advantage to this kit for a new person is that the parts are there. I made all of my own parts and spent both time and money on ideas / mistakes that had to be rebuilt due to my own poor design. I did eventually get it right though.


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