# American Flyer #283 not running.



## drooplug

I have this American Flyer 203 that I am trying to get running. I'm not experienced with model trains or electric motors. I did some poking around and I tried cleaning things up a bit but it still doesn't seem to rotate. I'm not even sure if the motor is ac or dc. I would appreciate some direction.


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## Big Ed

I think most of the Flyer people are away for the holiday. :dunno:

Here is a 283 thread to read.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=15450&highlight=american+flyer+283


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## Big Ed

another,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=13499&highlight=american+flyer+283


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## Big Ed

I found this for your AC or DC question.
I never really fooled with flyers.

A copy and paste,
Most American Flyer "S" and "O" engines were designed to run on AC or Alternating Current. Although, the motors are what is referred to as "series wound", so they can also operated on DC or Direct Current. Maximum voltage is 15 to 17 volts.

American Flyer engines also were made that would only run on DC, those engines have a "DC" after the engine number. Engines that have an "AC", after the engine number will run on both.

All American Flyer Transformers are AC. The DC versions are called Rectaformers.

Early American Flyer "HO" engines ran on AC, while later versions run on DC. In general the power units for the HO are called DC power packs.


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## Big Ed

There is a lot of help for you here till the Flyer members come back,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2567


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## drooplug

Thanks for the links. I think I've pretty much tried everything. I know the E-unit needs new fingers. I've been testing the motor by applying current directly. It spins a bit and stops. I can spin it by hand no problem. I added a touch of silicone lube to the gearing just in case it needed it, but I don't think it did. I sanded the commutator and cleaned it and the brushes. Maybe the motor is burned up. I don't know. I'll wait and see what others have to say.


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## Big Ed

drooplug said:


> Thanks for the links. I think I've pretty much tried everything. I know the E-unit needs new fingers. I've been testing the motor by applying current directly. It spins a bit and stops. I can spin it by hand no problem. I added a touch of silicone lube to the gearing just in case it needed it, but I don't think it did. I sanded the commutator and cleaned it and the brushes. Maybe the motor is burned up. I don't know. I'll wait and see what others have to say.



Have you tried to bypass the e unit to rule that out? Try it with the e unit disconnected completely? It might be the e unit, the fingers have to be just right.

You should not sand the commutator unless it is a real, real fine grit, like a wet sandpaper.
Some say use an eraser but I recently read that if you use an eraser it breaks down onto the commutator and pieces get everywhere and when things get hot the eraser pieces sort of melt gumming things up.
I use solvent and a bright boy.

Try isolating the e unit all together.


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## drooplug

I did bypass the e-unit. I touched the wires directly to the motor. I can see the fingers have holes in them, so there is an issue there.

I used 600 grit on the commutator with a wood block.. That's the finest I have on hand. I saw other people recommending 2000. The instruction manual for the train just says to use a "fine" paper.


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## Big Ed

Wait for the Flyer crew to get here.
I never fooled with Flyers, maybe they will have some ideals.


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## Strummer

You might try this.
As you look at the back of the engine, run a short wire between the two middle posts in the fiber board that the tender wires would plug into,then run wires from your transformer to the two out side posts.
That should enable you to test the motor.
Mark in Oregon


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## drooplug

I'm not sure what you mean. Here are two pics of what I have: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjNm1x5R

The only fiber board on the engine is up front for the smoker and light. Did you mean making these connections on the e-unit? To test the motor, I have been touching the wires from my transformer to where the brushes are located.


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## Strummer

I see...it looks to be hard-wired to the tender,in which case I'm afraid I can't make any suggestions. Hopefully one of the knowledgeable folks will be chiming in soon to help you out.
Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut

Yep, on 283's, the e-unit is hard-wired to the motor.The first thing I would do is to make sure all your wiring is good, solder points are not broken, and that the wires from each truck are supplying power to the e-unit. I would definitely replace both sets of fingers before going too far with anything. just keep back- tracking with a test light, making sure power is going to where it's supposed to go. If all else fails, ship it to me and I'll get it going for you for the cost of mailing and/or parts....Loren


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## drooplug

Well, right now I am bypassing the e-unit altogether and putting power directly to the motor and having trouble.


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## Strummer

drooplug said:


> I did bypass the e-unit. I touched the wires directly to the motor.


I'm not sure, but I don't think you can do that. AF engines have field-wound motors,not permanent magnet motors, so hopefully someone will be able to tell you exactly where the wires from your transformer should go to test the unit...

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut

Strummer said:


> I'm not sure, but I don't think you can do that. AF engines have field-wound motors,not permanent magnet motors, so hopefully someone will be able to tell you exactly where the wires from your transformer should go to test the unit...
> 
> Mark in Oregon


You're right...On a 283 it's a little hard because of the direct wire-in from the tender to the motor. You have 4 wires coming from the tender to the motor.I'd much rather mess with the type of engine/tender combo with a jack and jack panel.. What problems are you having now??? I'll try to stay up on this tonight but no promises. I want to watch the Giants game.Are you getting power from the trucks to the e-unit??.... e-unit to the motor???? If the brushes are that bad, I would stop and replace them before going any farther.


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## drooplug

I don't think the brushes are bad at all. If putting power directly to the brushes is not the right way to test it, then that could be my problem. I know the fingers on the e-unit are toast. So I need to test the motor by bypassing the e-unit. 

The electromagnet on the e-unit does activate so I know I am getting power from the trucks to the e-unit. As I said, the fingers are toast, so power from the e-unit to the motor is questionable for sure.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> I don't think the brushes are bad at all. If putting power directly to the brushes is not the right way to test it, then that could be my problem. I know the fingers on the e-unit are toast. So I need to test the motor by bypassing the e-unit.
> 
> The electromagnet on the e-unit does activate so I know I am getting power from the trucks to the e-unit. As I said, the fingers are toast, so power from the e-unit to the motor is questionable for sure.


Replace the fingers.


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## drooplug

Where is a good place to get new fingers?


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## daveh219

It sounds like you've "torn" down the engine parts. I would not use that 600 grit rather try some plain ol 91% alcohol on a cue tip swab. IF the fingers have holes in them they need to be replaced. They are cheap...can be found on ebay and others. Some have tried to solder the holes but i found replacing is easier. There are wiring pics in some of those web sites that Ed suggested. I have two 283 and really enjoy their durability. Take it one step at a time...


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## drooplug

The first thing I did was clean the e-unit with denatured alcohol. I did spy some holes in the fingers so they need to replaced. I will take a look on getting new ones.


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## flyernut

When you get your new fingers, get some new brushes and brush springs. They are cheap, and it can't hurt. Go to PortLines to get your parts. I have 3 283's and they're great runners.


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## drooplug

How do I tell if the smoker is working?


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## drooplug

Hmm. I tried to pop off the cover plate of the smoke unit. It was either already damaged or I damaged it. The wick appears to be broken. I only see part numbers for the cover plate and the smoke unit in the manual. I guess I would have to replace the whole unit to get it working.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> Hmm. I tried to pop off the cover plate of the smoke unit. It was either already damaged or I damaged it. The wick appears to be broken. I only see part numbers for the cover plate and the smoke unit in the manual. I guess I would have to replace the whole unit to get it working.


PortLines can sell you the wick and nichrome wire for your smoke unit. You probably damaged the unit when you popped open the top plate.If the unit works, I don't touch it.So if I'm following you right, you'll need 2 brushes, a set of fingers, top and bottom, new brush springs, a top plate gasket, wick, and a length of nichrome wire.Also, if you didn't remove the red smokestack from the top of the smoke unit before dis-assembly, you probably broke that also, but also available through PortLines.


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## drooplug

The red smoke stack is missing. I'll need a new one of those.


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## drooplug

How exactly do I fix the smoker? It seems the wick is anchored into the bottom. Then the wire is solder to the top but wraps around the wick. The wire appears to be still intack on my smoker, but the wick is broken.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> How exactly do I fix the smoker? It seems the wick is anchored into the bottom. Then the wire is solder to the top but wraps around the wick. The wire appears to be still intack on my smoker, but the wick is broken.


Your smoke unit is the newer style, that is there's no bottom plate. The older style with a bottom plate is much easier to repair than the newer style, in my opinion, but I haven't repaired a newer style. All my 283's have always been great smokers. I don't know what the insides look like, but I'll have a go. You thread the ends of the wick into the 2 small holes in the smoke unit, and just keep pushing more wick into the lower chamber. You must, however, wrap the nichrome wire around the wick before you do this. Wrap it around 12 times, making sure the wire doesn't touch itself or the side of the chamber. When you get everything into the chamber, you run the ends of the wire through the lugs on the top plate, and wrap them around the lug, about twice. Solder will not adhere to the nichrome wire, so you must embed the wire in solder..Screw the top plate back on and add some smoke fluid. Attach 2 leads coming from the transformer,track power, to the lugs. Give it about 1/4 throttle, and gently blow air into the piston area of the smoke chamber. You should see smoke coming out of the hole of the top plate.


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## drooplug

Yay! I managed to power the motor. I figured out the connections I need to make and it moves.

My smoker has a plate on the bottom. The process sounds like a delicate operation. I think I'll wait for another time to make those repairs. I took some pics of the smoker and added them to the rest: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjNm1x5R


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> Yay! I managed to power the motor. I figured out the connections I need to make and it moves.
> 
> My smoker has a plate on the bottom. The process sounds like a delicate operation. I think I'll wait for another time to make those repairs. I took some pics of the smoker and added them to the rest: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjNm1x5R


You have the early version, and it's easy to repair. You can get a "kit", with the wire already wrapped around the wick, or buy the materials yourself and do your own wrapping.. Great news on your engine!!


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## drooplug

Ok. Placed my order for parts. I decided to get what I needed for the smoker. It will blow the kids minds if I can get it up and running. Here's my order:

Order:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
1 PA9612-BRP STEAMERS: GENERAL (ID: 1003) FINGERS: LOWER, E-U 1.50
1 PA9612-CRP STEAMERS: GENERAL (ID: 1005) FINGERS: UPPER, E-U 1.50
1 PA8999 BULBS (ID: 277) BULB: 1449/455 CLEAR 1.00
1 PA10757 MOTOR PARTS (ID: 591) BRUSH-SPRING, pair: 1.00
1 PA9603 MOTOR PARTS (ID: 568) BRUSH (round shoulde 2.00
1 PA12190 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1707) SMOKESTACK, red pla 1.50
1 PA10835 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1677) SMOKE-FUNNEL. 1.50
1 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1720) SMOKE-WICK KIT ; pr 5.00
1 PA10525 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1717) SMOKE-UNIT LOWER GA 2.50
1 PA10521 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1718) SMOKE-UNIT UPPER GA 2.50
1 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 457) SMOKE WICK THREADING 3.50
1 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1676) SMOKE-FLUID: Supers 8.50


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## Strummer

drooplug said:


> Yay! I managed to power the motor. I figured out the connections I need to make and it moves.
> 
> Good show! These Flyers can be tricky,but they are also almost indestructible. You just gotta stick with 'em; they can usually be made to run again...
> 
> Mark in Oregon


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Hi Droo -- We can help you get that baby running again. We've done it time and time again for others here. You and the kids will love it. Keep posting your progress and don't be afraid to ask anything. Good Luck !!


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> Ok. Placed my order for parts. I decided to get what I needed for the smoker. It will blow the kids minds if I can get it up and running. Here's my order:
> 
> Order:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1 PA9612-BRP STEAMERS: GENERAL (ID: 1003) FINGERS: LOWER, E-U 1.50
> 1 PA9612-CRP STEAMERS: GENERAL (ID: 1005) FINGERS: UPPER, E-U 1.50
> 1 PA8999 BULBS (ID: 277) BULB: 1449/455 CLEAR 1.00
> 1 PA10757 MOTOR PARTS (ID: 591) BRUSH-SPRING, pair: 1.00
> 1 PA9603 MOTOR PARTS (ID: 568) BRUSH (round shoulde 2.00
> 1 PA12190 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1707) SMOKESTACK, red pla 1.50
> 1 PA10835 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1677) SMOKE-FUNNEL. 1.50
> 1 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1720) SMOKE-WICK KIT ; pr 5.00
> 1 PA10525 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1717) SMOKE-UNIT LOWER GA 2.50
> 1 PA10521 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1718) SMOKE-UNIT UPPER GA 2.50
> 1 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 457) SMOKE WICK THREADING 3.50
> 1 SMOKE UNITS (ID: 1676) SMOKE-FLUID: Supers 8.50


Exactly correct on all parts.. Your off to the races buddy. The smoke unit rebuild is a fun(?) project, and it will build up your confidence. You don't really need the wick threading thing-a-bob. I just wet the ends of the wick in my mouth and stick them into the holes. After I get it all threaded through, I just cut off about an inch. The wick is going to be longer than you really need.Just be careful that nichrome wire is not resting on the sides of the smoke unit. You'll short it out......The only part you didn't buy and may not need is the smoke unit insulator.It's the little cardboard-like thing that is inside the wick chamber, and the wick passes through it first, then through the body of the unit. Like I said, you may not need it, just be careful while removing it. If you need one, let me know. I think I have a few in my parts bin, and it will save you on postage.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

While you're waiting for your parts, you might want to spend a little time reviewing the links located in the first posted topic in the Forum S-Scale section named "Sticky". There's a bunch of helpful and informative links that will help you better understand and familiarize you with your Gilbert products.


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## drooplug

Blah. It sure is taking forever for them to send parts out. I just notice that the USPS received them today. Hopefully will have them by Tuesday.

Will any smoke fluid work with this train, or do I need something designed for this particular unit? I have one coming from Port Lines, but I was at the local hobby shop today and saw a wide assortment of smoke fluid made by MTH.


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## Strummer

drooplug said:


> Blah. It sure is taking forever for them to send parts out. I just notice that the USPS received them today. Hopefully will have them by Tuesday.
> Will any smoke fluid work with this train, or do I need something designed for this particular unit? I have one coming from Port Lines, but I was at the local hobby shop today and saw a wide assortment of smoke fluid made by MTH.


Didn't you just place the order last Monday? I would think a week (give or take) is pretty good.

I think pretty much any brand will work; I use the "ANormal1" fluid, because it works well, I like the smell and it's made here in Oregon...

Mark in Oregon


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## drooplug

I placed it Monday night after hours. Most things ship out within 2 business days. It's taken them 5. Now that it is shipped, it won't take long.



> I think pretty much any brand will work; I use the "ANormal1" fluid, because it works well, I like the smell and it's made here in Oregon...


Awesome. They have a wide range of odors and it's local so I won't have to spend money on shipping. If things go well, maybe we can expand our odors.


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## flyernut

I have original formula, black licorice, pumpkin spice, cinnamon roll, coffee,and one more that I can't of the name.


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## drooplug

I saw they had bacon and eggs at the hobby shop.  If it doesn't smell exactly like bacon and eggs, it will smell awful.

I have balsam on the way from Port Lines. We put up a fake balsam for xmas and I figured that might make the most sense. We will see.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> I saw they had bacon and eggs at the hobby shop.  If it doesn't smell exactly like bacon and eggs, it will smell awful.
> 
> I have balsam on the way from Port Lines. We put up a fake balsam for xmas and I figured that might make the most sense. We will see.


The wife doesn't care for the original formula so I bought a bunch of different flavors that I know she like. I also have vanilla, and it smells like cookies baking.


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## kix662003

Flyernut.... I thought you used Spiced Pumpkin. Was that just your Thanksgiving flavor? Thanks for repairing and refurbishing my old 303. It's been a real joy to have a "new" locomotive again! Of course your livelihood requires an eye for details, which you clearly have. I should thank Nuttin But Flyer too, who found the American Flyer parts that I couldn't buy new.


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## drooplug

I should get my parts tomorrow. I was looking over the train and noticed that part of the old smokestack was stuck in the cover plate for the smoker. Where these things originally pressed in, or did they glue them?


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> I should get my parts tomorrow. I was looking over the train and noticed that part of the old smokestack was stuck in the cover plate for the smoker. Where these things originally pressed in, or did they glue them?


They screw in and screw out. Just put a flat screw driver blade into the broken stack and simply screw it out.The stack is the first thing you remove when dis-assembling the shell from the chassis, and the last thing you put on.


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## flyernut

kix662003 said:


> Flyernut.... I thought you used Spiced Pumpkin. Was that just your Thanksgiving flavor? Thanks for repairing and refurbishing my old 303. It's been a real joy to have a "new" locomotive again! Of course your livelihood requires an eye for details, which you clearly have. I should thank Nuttin But Flyer too, who found the American Flyer parts that I couldn't buy new.


You're right buddy!! I forgot that one.. I'm glad your 303 is still ticking along. It should last another 40 years, way after both you and myself are gone,lol.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Port Lines also sells repro smoke stack inserts should you need one. However, if you want to shorten the time between ordering and shipping, I am sure I have what you need in my inventory. Just let me know if you need one and I can fire it off to you.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Port Lines also sells repro smoke stack inserts should you need one. However, if you want to shorten the time between ordering and shipping, I am sure I have what you need in my inventory. Just let me know if you need one and I can fire it off to you.


I think I used my last one on a project...


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## drooplug

I got the fingers in. Really didn't give it a good test because I still need to get the smoke unit fixed. I'm having a bit of a time with it. I think I finally got the wire wrapped around the wick right. Got it pull through the holes and what not. I removed the old gasket from the top cover plate. I think this may have been a mistake. The solder lugs riveted the gasket on. So now the new gasket sits on top of the lugs. How should I handle this situation?


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> I got the fingers in. Really didn't give it a good test because I still need to get the smoke unit fixed. I'm having a bit of a time with it. I think I finally got the wire wrapped around the wick right. Got it pull through the holes and what not. I removed the old gasket from the top cover plate. I think this may have been a mistake. The solder lugs riveted the gasket on. So now the new gasket sits on top of the lugs. How should I handle this situation?


Either cut holes for the lugs or get new lugs.. I really don't know as I never ran into this. I believe you can turn the lugs a little also.


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## drooplug

It looks like I have been met with some success. The motor spins and the smoker smokes! Looks like I need to clean the track and see if I can get that in working order. The other problem is the E-unit not shifting. From what I can tell, when the magnet pushes the brass lever up into the gear on the cylinder, the brass lever gets pushed sideways out of the side of the e-unit. The lever then becomes stuck and doesn't drop down to reset itself. I can't really see a way to tighten up the tolerance at the pin. Any ideas?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Be sure you are holding the reverse unit level -- without the use of gravity it won't drop correctly. They usually need a bit of adjustment with a needle nosed pliers to bend it just the right way. Also be sure it is completely cleaned of gunk and dirt -- use a plastic-safe contact cleaner spray and douse it repeatedly while using Q-tips or paper towels to wipe it. A miniscule drop of light oil will be more than enough to lube the pivoting points once it is clean and adjusted.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Be sure you are holding the reverse unit level -- without the use of gravity it won't drop correctly. They usually need a bit of adjustment with a needle nosed pliers to bend it just the right way. Also be sure it is completely cleaned of gunk and dirt -- use a plastic-safe contact cleaner spray and douse it repeatedly while using Q-tips or paper towels to wipe it. A miniscule drop of light oil will be more than enough to lube the pivoting points once it is clean and adjusted.


Can't say it any better.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I get it from you......


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## drooplug

I messed around with the e-unit and just couldn't get it to function properly. I did get everything set up and running though. http://flic.kr/p/ijHPQC It sure throws off a lot of smoke! I had to open the window.  It also doesn't move until about 30% power. Not sure if that is a problem or not.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> I messed around with the e-unit and just couldn't get it to function properly. I did get everything set up and running though. http://flic.kr/p/ijHPQC It sure throws off a lot of smoke! I had to open the window.  It also doesn't move until about 30% power. Not sure if that is a problem or not.


Looks ok to me, but I see/hear you have a growler,lol. Of the 3 283's I have, one also makes that noise. Yours smokes just right.. Nice...


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> I get it from you......


If you're hinting around for a Christmas present, it ain't going to work....lol


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## drooplug

I also had this part in the track where the front wheels would derail. It was strange. I couldn't quiet tell if there was something amiss with the track or what. I wonder if a new spring on the front wheels would be of any help.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> I also had this part in the track where the front wheels would derail. It was strange. I couldn't quiet tell if there was something amiss with the track or what. I wonder if a new spring on the front wheels would be of any help.


Can't hurt


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## Strummer

drooplug said:


> I also had this part in the track where the front wheels would derail. It was strange. I couldn't quiet tell if there was something amiss with the track or what. I wonder if a new spring on the front wheels would be of any help.



If you aren't having derailing issues elsewhere,then I would guess it's an issue with the track in that spot...

Mark in Oregon


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## Kwikster

I agree with Mark. A derailment in one spot usually relates to track. Have you tried running both ways around. As in turn the engine around, not just reverse. Sometimes you can see the suspect area better that way. You could even make a gauge block, a scrap of wood a saw and careful measurements the scoot the gauge around looking for irregularities.

Carl


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## drooplug

Hmm. Good tips on the derailment issue. I had it set up on the carpet, so I thought that could have part of the problem. I did inspect the area and it didn't seem like anything was wrong. I didn't exhaust all possibilities at the time. Some parts of the track do have issues at the ends where the pins are. The best way to describe what was occurring is that the engine was lifting way up in the front and leaning over as if it was going to fast around the curve. It happened at super low speeds. I'll just have to give it a better look the next time I am setup.


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## AF-Doc'

Greetings Droo,
I have just referbed my childhood 283 smoker and a 303 smoker as well. Doug at Port Lines is one of the best resources for parts and don't over look his " On-Line American Flyer Repair Clinics " page. Top left on the home page. It is a wealth of information. Best Regards
Doc'


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Well said, Doug. He is the best source I have found for parts and info.


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## AF-Doc'

*283 wake up issues*

Hi Droo, for derailment issue you might check the not only the top of the track connections but the insides as well. some times at the track connector the track will get distorted sideways when the track is taken apart. this will cause the wheels to jump when they hit the inside of the track at the connection. In addition get a good wheel gauge or make one from measurements of a good section of track and then check the wheels on everything. A little 100% synthetic oil on the truck bearing will help as well, again just a little. Regarding the E Unit and its ability to switch from forward to reverse I have found that with my 17B Gilbert supply the output voltage was just a little to high, current 120 volt ac supply from the power company is a little high here in SC, and it caused the E Unit to switch when running the 283 around 12 volts ac. I found a fix which I have added to the 283 and the 303 as well. It involves getting a small spring, small is the word, and then drill a small hole in the rear tit of the plate that E Unit coil pull up. I then solder the spring to the rivet that holds the forward only leaver to the E Unit. Fit the other end of the spring in the drilled hole and with a few tweaks to the spring length it will hold the plate in the down direction and allow for smoother direction control. You still need to pulse the E Unit, Off to Max and Off again to get the E Unit to switch with your transformer. Once the direction is changed and the engine starts to move I set the transformer back to Off to allow the spring to pull the plate back down and now I speed up to run the train. My engines take about 8 vac to start moving based on the number of cars on the train. I will disassemble the tender on the 283 and try to post some pictures of the E Unit mods.
Doc'


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## drooplug

Doug Oconnor said:


> You still need to pulse the E Unit, Off to Max and Off again to get the E Unit to switch with your transformer. Once the direction is changed and the engine starts to move I set the transformer back to Off to allow the spring to pull the plate back down and now I speed up to run the train. My engines take about 8 vac to start moving based on the number of cars on the train. I will disassemble the tender on the 283 and try to post some pictures of the E Unit mods.
> Doc'


The last time I set up the track, I didn't have the derailment issue. I think part of it was the placement on the carpet. And perhaps the trouble piece of track was located in a more suitable position to not cause an issue. 

Great information on the E-unit mod. I am curious about the proper way to operate the e-unit. You need to go to 100% to make it switch?


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> The last time I set up the track, I didn't have the derailment issue. I think part of it was the placement on the carpet. And perhaps the trouble piece of track was located in a more suitable position to not cause an issue.
> 
> Great information on the E-unit mod. I am curious about the proper way to operate the e-unit. You need to go to 100% to make it switch?


No to your question about the e-unit. All you should have to do is introduce power to the track at any level to operate the coil.


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## AF-Doc'

*E Units Switching*

Hi Droo, I hope the attached files make it as I still have some I.O. problems. I have found on my E-Units here that it takes about 14 vac to energize the coil. After it is energized it will hold in until the voltage drops below about 7 vac. My 17B supply will very between 5.5 and 17 vac. With that in mind I need to raise the track voltage to about 14 volt to get the coil to energize and then below 7 to drop out. Although there are several ways to switch the E Unit I do mine like this. With the 283 or the 303 engine stopped I raise the voltage to 14 or above, when the E Unit engages I reduce the voltage to below 7 where the relay drops out. I then repeat the cycle again and the engine will be moving in the reverse direction. I then lower the voltage to below 7 and the relay drops out, as well as the engine stops, I then raise the track voltage to the speed that I want to run the engine. If I raise the track voltage above 14 volts the relay will trip again and the engine will stop until I repeat the cycle mentioned above. Here is a different method I have wired a momentary switch from the aux 17 volt of the B17 supply to the variable, 5.5 to 17, track output post NOT the BASE post. With the engine speed set to "0" I can press the momentary switch which will pulse the track with 17 volts and that will energize the E Unit relay. When I pulse it again the relay will change it direction and then using the speed control I can set the speed of the engine. Use caution with this set up as it will cause the engine to jump if you hold the momentary switch on for more that a pulse. Once again there are other methods that could work but this is what works on my AF engines. The pix show the spring modifications to the E Unit relay.
Doc'


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## drooplug

Thanks for the pictures. They are worth a thousand words.  Where did you source that spring? Looks like maybe I could use one out of a pen.


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## flyernut

drooplug said:


> Thanks for the pictures. They are worth a thousand words.  Where did you source that spring? Looks like maybe I could use one out of a pen.


Any good hardware store will carry springs. My local store has any spring I could ask for..But I don't think that's a proper cure for a e-unit. There's something else amiss with the unit if the plunger fails to return to it's rightful place.Crud or a bind could be the problem. All my e-units works flawlessly without the spring.. But if it works for someone else, so be it, but I would look for a binding/cleanliness issue. JMO..


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## AF-Doc'

Re Hi, I must admit that the E Units should function without any additional parts. They worked fine in 1954 and have been cleaned and re fingered. I have not be able to find any tweak that would allow the relay to drop out at any voltage setting short of lifting the tender off the track. I'm wondering now if the 60 year old coil could have changed value? Does anyone have a resistive value for the coil or additions adjustments that could help? It could be just worn out. The spring came for the front truck of an old Rivarossi steam engine.


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## drooplug

With my train, what I believe is happening is that the coil is de-energized, but the mechanism has been pushed up so far that it is stuck. I can lightly touch the brass lever from the side and it will drop out.


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## AF-Doc'

same here and I could not find any adjustment for the brass lever that would let the coil plate drop down. I removed the contact cam and checked for anything that would restrict the lever from dropping off ... no luck... maybe I stopped trying to soon or the E Unit could just be worn out. I see that Doug at Portlines has new ones for $30. ID # 1442. I think now I'll buy a new one as see if that is the real fix. The spring is just a patch and was cheaper.


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## drooplug

That lever just goes off to the side too far. I tried bending it, but nothing seemed to improve. This was my father's train and I am happy enough to get it up and running without a working e-unit. If it only goes forward, that's fine by me.


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## flyernut

Doug Oconnor said:


> Re Hi, I must admit that the E Units should function without any additional parts. They worked fine in 1954 and have been cleaned and re fingered. I have not be able to find any tweak that would allow the relay to drop out at any voltage setting short of lifting the tender off the track. I'm wondering now if the 60 year old coil could have changed value? Does anyone have a resistive value for the coil or additions adjustments that could help? It could be just worn out. The spring came for the front truck of an old Rivarossi steam engine.


I noticed a bit of brown "whatever" on the side of your e-unit.The e-unit should perform without any or VERY little oil on it. What I do with my units when I rebuild them is to completely tear down the e-unit, removing the fingers and drum.. Clean up everything with alcohol, and buff the insides of the unit with a red or green scotch-brite pad. I then use a piece of 2000 grit paper rolled up very tightly, and sand the insides of the holes where the drum pivots. The hole is so small that a very minute piece of rust can cause a problem, or a build-up of dirt/oil/grease. So far, all my units are at 100%.


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## AF-Doc'

What a great tip about sanding the drum pivot holes and in addition the holes that the coil plate pivots in. I spent time yesterday going over the E unit again and removed all of the oil and re-cleaned but did not buff the holes. I noticed that when the coil turns on and lifts the plate the drum rotates fine, then when the voltage is lowered the coil seems to stay energized just enough to hold the plate a slight bit of down pressure on the arm lets it drop out. I'm off to buff the holes and try again. Thanks for the tip. Doc'


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## flyernut

Doug Oconnor said:


> What a great tip about sanding the drum pivot holes and in addition the holes that the coil plate pivots in. I spent time yesterday going over the E unit again and removed all of the oil and re-cleaned but did not buff the holes. I noticed that when the coil turns on and lifts the plate the drum rotates fine, then when the voltage is lowered the coil seems to stay energized just enough to hold the plate a slight bit of down pressure on the arm lets it drop out. I'm off to buff the holes and try again. Thanks for the tip. Doc'


I've found out that if you move that plate up and down WITHOUT the drum and fingers in place, that it will indeed stick. It will work better assembled. There are 5 places where I oil on the e-unit. The 2 coil plate holes, the 2 drum pivot holes, and the small brass rivet on the unit's arm that's located inside the e-unit. When I say oil, I mean VERY LITTLE, like half a drop. I have several needle oilers that I use, and you can get a very small drop with them, and you have better control on where you want to put that drop of oil. Works great om trucks too.


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## AF-Doc'

Greetings, What an E Unit morning... I completely disassembled the relay assembly and cleaned and checked for burrs, wear, and what ever else I could find. I then followed your tips and added new fingers as well. When I completed the tasks I installed on the test track and found that although I have a very clean E Unit it still will not de energize with the power supply at its lowest setting...5.56 vac. When I press down on the tab at the back of the lift plate I can feel the coil still pulling up. Once I press it down the relay will re engage at around 7 volts and everything runs fine until I try to change directions. I measured the coil at 16.3 ohms. With the power off the relay and drum cycle just perfect. I did add contact lub on the fingers and a whisper of oil on the brass rivet at the lift plate. I have attached several pix. The one on the track is with the power supply set to "0" ( 5.56 vac ) and the coil is still energized. Maybe its time to re test with a different power supply and then maybe a new E Unit....? thoughts ?
Doc'


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## flyernut

Maybe this isn't it but.... Picture #5...Your wiring does not look correct to me. The rear truck wire should not be going to the e-unit, but to the top fingers.The front truck wire should be going to the spot on the e-unit where you have the rear truck wire going to.Maybe because of the wiring, something is still energized?? It doesn't sound right to me either,lol, but I would look at your wiring diagram again.. I don't think it has anything to do with the problem, but I would make the wiring right first.


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## flyernut

Maybe the coil plate has become magnetized over the years, and should De-magnitized??? Just grabbing at straws here.


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## flyernut

If you're feeling some resistance at a minimal voltage, that would seem right to me. All of my loco's, including my diesels, seem to operate,( forward-nuetral-reverse-etc), correctly when the track voltage is turned down to zero,(off), and then powered back up to the next position. (We're talking about the e-unit). Try a different transformer.. I just bought a 30B and I wasn't sure of the operation. With the throttle control at zero, dead mans stick still engaged, there's still voltage going to the track, and that's correct. That's so you can power back up and still be in forward, if that's where you were when you powered down. So the coil plate SHOULD still be energized with the power set at zero, but dead mans stick engaged. Try another transformer, and I believe you should see a difference.


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## flyernut

I stand corrected about the wiring issue.. After checking with one of my diagrams, it looks ok to me.. Sorry, my apologies.


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## AF-Doc'

:eyes: It always best if there are several eyes looking. No issues...All is good. I'm going to see my brother as he as the original AF transformer that came with the trains back in the day. That might put some light on the operation. He has the other 283 and a 282 and I just sent his 17B back... I'm expecting a phone call about some engine switching issue. LOL. I've seen the top wiring of the E Unit on my engines a little different on each one but the circuit is the same although the wiring cable is different colors and some times the front light is wired all the way back to the E Unit top plate ?? Third shift ? I'll chat back after the next round of transformer checks. And Thanks. Side question: How do you change your name that comes up with the posts. Editing the profile has had little effect so far, although I did get the avatar to up load. Thanks again regards.
Doc'


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## AF-Doc'

Re Hi Flyernut, I just had to switch the wires reversed from the # 5 picture. The results were the same...when a thought go by sometimes its best to act on it...thanks again for checking.
Doc'


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## flyernut

Doug Oconnor said:


> Re Hi Flyernut, I just had to switch the wires reversed from the # 5 picture. The results were the same...when a thought go by sometimes its best to act on it...thanks again for checking.
> Doc'


I thought all flyer engines,locos, were wired the same..Boy was I wrong...It's funny, my nickname is also Doc!!


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## flyernut

Doug Oconnor said:


> :eyes: It always best if there are several eyes looking. No issues...All is good. I'm going to see my brother as he as the original AF transformer that came with the trains back in the day. That might put some light on the operation. He has the other 283 and a 282 and I just sent his 17B back... I'm expecting a phone call about some engine switching issue. LOL. I've seen the top wiring of the E Unit on my engines a little different on each one but the circuit is the same although the wiring cable is different colors and some times the front light is wired all the way back to the E Unit top plate ?? Third shift ? I'll chat back after the next round of transformer checks. And Thanks. Side question: How do you change your name that comes up with the posts. Editing the profile has had little effect so far, although I did get the avatar to up load. Thanks again regards.
> Doc'


You're right about that wire going to the e-unit.303 and 283 have the wiring harness all one piece, that is to say, you can't separate the tender from the engine.It's one of my pet peeves about those 2 engines.


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## amer/flyer

I have the same problem. did you check the wires, make sure that they are all soldered in the correct places. I believe there are 2 screws in the front, unscrew them, be carefull. I have a 282 American flyer with the similar problem. Let me know how it goes.


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## AF-Doc'

Greetings all.. Well I have tried the E Unit switching with the original 50 watt supply that came with the train set. Again there was no difference with the relay operation. In addition I tested it with a Lionel CW-80 transformer and had the better results on all three of the engines a 303, 307 and 283. I checked the CW-80 voltage and the lo value was @ 1.83 vac. At that voltage the relay will drop out and with an increase of voltage the relay will cycle and reverse the direction. I should note that the 303 does not have the spring modification that the 307 & 283 have. I wonder now if I have a good understanding of how the relay cycles correctly? I have checked all the wiring noted in the service manual and that all look correct although the solder location may differ on the fingers the circuit is still the same. I did check for a magnetized lift place as well as the coil mount. It was not. I'm going to contact Doug at Portlines and see if he have a ohm value for the coil or could it be that the old transformers are sensitive to the 123 vac line voltage here at the house. This sure is proving to be an adventure. Doc'


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## AF-Doc'

Ooops, I not sure if anyone has been to this site yet http://myflyertrains.org but they have the complete Factory Service Manual Online now. What a service, the link to the Manual is on the main page. Doc'


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