# Lionel Legacy USRA Light Mountain Missouri Pacific



## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Hey guys. Check out the tender on my new $1100 engine...
:smilie_daumenneg:


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm guessing the large gap between the words Pacific and Lines? or something else?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

That's not how you spell "Missouri"


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

beachhead2 said:


> That's not how you spell "Missouri"


Oh darn didn't even see that. Yep another great quality by Lionel print shop over in China. That can be fixed if you have steady hands and good with transfers. Should be easy to remove also but sadly you shouldn't have to.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

And I won't. I'm sending it back.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

The vendor is checking their remaining inventory. I suspect they'll find them all in error but fingers crossed. A simple exchange would be nice. I was dreading this engine because of Lionel's problems. Little did I know it would never even hit the track. They're just a joke.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Oh my!!! 

I suppose I should not say this, but given they are all going to be like this, you could say that "Missiouri loves company."


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lee Willis said:


> Oh my!!!
> 
> I suppose I should not say this, but given they are all going to be like this, you could say that "Missiouri loves company."


Good one Lee, good one.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

Pathetic! 

That's how they spell it in China. :goofball:


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Now back in the post-war days up through perhaps the 1980's, this kind of factory error would be considered a collector's item and carry a price PREMIUM on the secondary market. But nowadays, it's just a sad sign of the times. Lionel is an outright embarrassment -- especially with these empty-suited warehouse quality stickers which seem to imply NOTHING.  

Dealer pre-order deadlines have come and gone this week for Lionel's 2019 Volume 2 catalog, and I decided it wasn't worth pre-ordering ANYTHING -- not even the small stuff. I've lost complete confidence in Lionel's ability to deliver on what they catalog. I still have a Hudson and Christmas Shay on pre-order from the prior catalog, but that's the last of my pre-orders with Lionel. I'm REALLY hoping they don't screw anything up on the Hudson and Shay. But the way things are looking, that may be VERY wishful thinking.  If they're not right, I'm refusing delivery -- like I did with the Challenger.

It'll be interesting if your MOPAC tender IS a one-off error, or if the entire MOPAC production run was produced this way. I have a feeling it might be the latter, but do keep us posted. Even if it's a one-off error, I'd return it. Since Lionel is producing so much junk these days, there's no consumer appreciation for these factory error "collectibles" anymore. 

Funny how the pendulum has swung completely from these factory errors perceived as highly desirable collectibles to undesirable junk in a matter of several decades.  But Lionel has nobody to blame but themselves. They're simply producing too much product, and nobody is monitoring the factories. And don't let them tell you otherwise.

David


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks for including the photo of the QA sticker. It says a lot.

Makes me glad to be an MTH guy.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

That is just a shame after you wait for the item and it arrives with problems.
Lee: your puns are killing me.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Missiouri is a suburb of St Louis at the confluence of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. 

I can empathize with your frustration. My RS11 is getting its memory restored as I write.
No more NEW Lionel engines for me. 

Pete


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

beachhead2 said:


> That's not how you spell "Missouri"


Lionel has become quite the gaffe machine.:thumbsdown:

BTW, the spelling error is in the catalog picture too.

Lionel is making the “gang that can’t shoot straight” look like marksman!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You can’t make this stuff up, and it keeps on coming, and the sheeple keep buying!


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Craignor said:


> You can’t make this stuff up, and it keeps on coming, and the sheeple keep buying!


I'll only say this in my defense: I just got into O Gauge trains Christmas of 2017. When this catalog came out, I was a newbie and knew nothing of Lionel's poor quality. I ordered four Legacy engines from this 2018 catalog. So far I have received three. All three of them have problems. If you want to look on the bright side, Lionel is batting 1.000! :smilie_auslachen:


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Lehigh74 said:


> Thanks for including the photo of the QA sticker. It says a lot.
> 
> Makes me glad to be an MTH guy.


Yes, that was meant in jest. I'm quickly morphing into an MTH guy.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

beachhead2 said:


> Yes, that was meant in jest. I'm quickly morphing into an MTH guy.


Not blaming you friend, actually you came in just as Lionel started circling the bowl. Not your fault.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Craignor said:


> Not blaming you friend, actually you came in just as Lionel started circling the bowl. Not your fault.


Poor timing!


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Spellcheck?

I stopped buying Lionel after I got the VL GG, 12/20/16. It was loaded with problems. It’s been back to Lionel three times. The first two years it was in the shop the entire time. 

Now it’s mostly ok, except the rear pantograph stopped working a few weeks ago. I won’t send it back just for that, liable to get damaged. I will just run it in reverse for now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That really boggles the mind, how do you miss something simple like that?


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Craignor said:


> BTW, the spelling error is in the catalog picture too.


Hard to believe that no one spotted it!


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Lionel has screwed the pooch more times than Jeffrey Epstein.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It was pointed out on OGR that its spelled wrong in the Catalog (2018 Vol2). i just checked and it is. Can't blame China for that. 
Garbage in, garbage out.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> It was pointed out on OGR that its spelled wrong in the Catalog (2018 Vol2). i just checked and it is. Can't blame China for that.
> Garbage in, garbage out.
> 
> ...


That's what I mean, Pete.... Lionel is just producing far too many products, and nobody is minding the store at various stages along the way. Production reviews seem non-existent. Somebody should have signed off on a decorated production sample, correct? Or is Lionel just signing off on an undecorated engineering sample, and then praying all the decoration is done properly? Lionel manages the problems as consumers take delivery of product. So now what are they gonna do with MOPAC customers? Have them all ship these engines back to NC to be redecorated? And what about stock still out in the distribution channels? Will they only "fix" those if the customer complains and ships the locomotive back to Lionel? Or will they call them all back?

You just can't make up this nonsense.  We're unfortunately now at the point where we can't even imagine what's gonna go wrong in the next product delivery. And there are plenty of $1000+ big-ticket items still to be delivered this year yet. 

David


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

David,

“And what about stock still out in the distribution channels? Will they only "fix" those if the customer complains and ships the locomotive back to Lionel? Or will they call them all back?”

You know the answer to that question.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

At least at MTF we are free to discuss the issues, and warn each other of defects, without having our threads altered, deleted, or moderated to cover for the manufacturer. 

And we can have a few laughs in the process.:laugh:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am curious if someone did a poll of those who ordered this engine how many, if any, noticed the mispelling in the catalog. If any said yes, did any bring it to Lionel's attention? Obviously its Lionel's responsibilty but it illustrates how this error could have been overlooked if no one noticed it.

Pete


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Norton said:


> I am curious if someone did a poll of those who ordered this engine how many, if any, noticed the mispelling in the catalog. If any said yes, did any bring it to Lionel's attention? Obviously its Lionel's responsibilty but it illustrates how this error could have been overlooked if no one noticed it.
> 
> Pete


Pete,

I went back and looked at my 2018 Vol. 2 print catalog. The MoPac USRA Light Mountain engine in question (the one I took delivery of today: 1931070) is not a very high resolution picture. I looked at it with a loupe to determine if Missouri is mispelled. It appears as though it is mispelled but no one is determining that with the naked eye.

HOWEVER, the new 2019 Vol. 2 catalog is a different story. There is a picture of a MoPac 4-8-4S in that catalog (2031230) that clearly shows the same "Missiouri" mispelling on the tender.

So I guess I should complete the Lee Willis joke series. I'll order that one so they have company!


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I went back and stole this pic from my own catalog post earlier this summer. You can zoom in and clearly see the mispelled tender. Again, this is an engine which hasn't been made yet. 

With this much head's up, and with the current USRA Lt. Mountain mistake, it will actually be hilarious if they _still _deliver it this way.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I usually give my catalogs to the local train clubs so checked out the online version. You can zoom in the illustration and see the extra i.
One of the auction sites has a New Haven TMCC 4-8-2 with a start price 381. Engines like this is what I look for these days. Big Pittman motors and few problems. Those that do crop up are easily remedied. Maybe it only has two chuffs or the smoke output is weak or the road name is wrong. Fixes for these are available and you don't have to rely on Lionel.

Pete


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Too many great puns to list each one - laughing through the thread (except for the fellows receiving the sub-par goods)

On a different note, here's the 1996 campus entrance sign for the newly named "The College of New Jersey".

Like USC requiring SAT scores above 1200 ... "TCNJ is a selective institution, with a stated mission to keep New Jersey's most talented students in-state for higher education." Wikipedia

Glad I didn't "pay" to have my kids attend". Worse yet, it's specialty is educating future teachers.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

One more thing. Here is a picture of the box. Note where these were made...


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Korea? North or South?

I just received my new Lionel NYC Mikado. Some thing about it just doesn't look right...

Tom


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)




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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Krieglok said:


> Korea? North or South?
> 
> I just received my new Lionel NYC Mikado. Some thing about it just doesn't look right...
> 
> Tom


The tender is derailed.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Made in Korea is a good omen for those who ordered the NYC J3s. The original ones were made there as well and are solid engines. The satin paint looks better too than the recent high gloss paint jobs on some of the recent steam Lionel has made.

Pete


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Craignor said:


> The tender is derailed.


Hah! I never noticed that until you mentioned it!

Seriously though, great that the new product was made in Korea, an old labor market being utilized once again. Hopefully a new trend...Nice to see!

Tom


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Made in Korea is a good omen for those who ordered the NYC J3s. The original ones were made there as well and are solid engines. The satin paint looks better too than the recent high gloss paint jobs on some of the recent steam Lionel has made.
> 
> Pete


Good to here, one reason I like weathering is to get ride of the high gloss


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

The artist rendering of the 2019 Volume 2 catalog with the MOPAC 4-8-4 has the same thing. Missouri has that extra vowel between S and O.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well we can’t complain that Lionel didn’t give us what they cataloged lol


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Well we can’t complain that Lionel didn’t give us what they cataloged lol


Thats their mantra. Once in the catalog its written in stone. 
I wonder what they would have done if a forum member pointed it out before it went into production? Didn't make any difference in the case of the J3a class lights. If its in the catalog thats, what you'll get. 

Pete


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

This doesn't apply to this engine but I bought a Reading and Northern sound passenger car this summer and the lettering on one side is up side down. WOW


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Makes me feel better about passing on all the N and W/NS stuff. Regrets had been creeping in but no more.

Like David, zero from volume 2.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Thats their mantra. Once in the catalog its written in stone.
> I wonder what they would have done if a forum member pointed it out before it went into production? Didn't make any difference in the case of the J3a class lights. If its in the catalog thats, what you'll get.
> 
> Pete


Hence the reason I went with Mr Muffins special run Hudson. But, even with the marker lights the sheep pre ordered them up.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I'm looking for some advice from you guys regarding this engine.

I called Lionel today to get an RA on a different engine. While I was on the phone, I asked about the "Missiouri" tender. I was told that it will be a "a week or two" before they know but they're looking for an answer, perhaps new tender shells. I also called the store that sold it to me. They're willing to accept a return. I'm on the fence about what to do.

I have no history with Lionel (beyond the three engines I've received from this catalog which have all been a mess). I don't want to get caught in a vortex of waiting. I'm tempted to return the Mountain and wash my hands of this mess. However, I also have the MoPac heavyweights coming from the same vendor. So my preference is to keep it.

Do you think it's a safe play to wait on new tender shells? Thanks.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lionel has been pretty good on replacing shells in the past. Just a few weeks ago they announced a couple of new shells for some F3s.
If push came to shove they could be easily relettered. The old lettering can be removed completely in a few seconds with lacquer thinner and decals or transfers or stick on vinyl could be used.
If Lionel does agree to replace these expect about a 6 month wait so patience is needed.
I they were mine I would just reletter them myself.

Pete


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Mike,

If it were me I would return it, get my money back, and be done with it.

Vote with your wallet.



beachhead2 said:


> I'm looking for some advice from you guys regarding this engine.
> 
> I called Lionel today to get an RA on a different engine. While I was on the phone, I asked about the "Missiouri" tender. I was told that it will be a "a week or two" before they know but they're looking for an answer, perhaps new tender shells. I also called the store that sold it to me. They're willing to accept a return. I'm on the fence about what to do.
> 
> ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm with Craig, I've had to fix enough "new" stuff from Lionel already, my patience is wearing thin about all the QC issues with new stuff coming in! I'd send it back, maybe eventually when it hits the bottom line, Lionel will start checking before the stuff ships and not let the customer do the QC.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Should we start a list now on all the engines that will be on sale "AS IS" during the Nov warehouse sale?

I'll ad the first one.

1. Moguls LOL


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## michrr714 (Oct 1, 2015)

The sad part to me is they claim they have QC people in China. I don't see how that can be given the continued issues one after the other. I would have loved one of the Soo Line Mountains, but I'm done buying from them until I see a marked improvement in the product.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> Should we start a list now on all the engines that will be on sale "AS IS" during the Nov warehouse sale?
> 
> I'll ad the first one.
> 
> 1. Moguls LOL


I just got one of the conventional Moguls in for a TMCC upgrade. Although it's a tight fit, I think I can squeeze everything in. It'll be way more reliable than the Legacy version, and it'll have all the features as well. After seeing this one, I may look for a conventional Mogul for my own collection to upgrade, after all, I'll have the practice on this one.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I just got one of the conventional Moguls in for a TMCC upgrade. Although it's a tight fit, I think I can squeeze everything in. It'll be way more reliable than the Legacy version, and it'll have all the features as well. After seeing this one, I may look for a conventional Mogul for my own collection to upgrade, after all, I'll have the practice on this one.


The TMCC version has a small Pittman motor and even with Odyssey is smooth runner. A cam swap gives 4 chuffs and puffs and pretty easy to do as the axles are held in place with with a plate.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> The TMCC version has a small Pittman motor and even with Odyssey is smooth runner. A cam swap gives 4 chuffs and puffs and pretty easy to do as the axles are held in place with with a plate.
> 
> Pete


I'll be looking for one at York.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> The TMCC version has a small Pittman motor and even with Odyssey is smooth runner. A cam swap gives 4 chuffs and puffs and pretty easy to do as the axles are held in place with with a plate.
> 
> Pete


Pete, the one I have here actually has a 4-lobe cam in it, I was going to put in the Chuff-Generator, but it turns out I already have 4-chuffs! I was a bit surprised, not something I expected to find in a TMCC locomotive. I pulled the switch and the cam isn't a home-brew, it looks like a factory part. 

Just for future reference, how did you go about swapping the cam? Are you talking about pulling a wheel and doing a swap with a factory cam or a roll your own model?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

> Just for future reference, how did you go about swapping the cam? Are you talking about pulling a wheel and doing a swap with a factory cam or a roll your own model?


I was thinking of asking the very same thing.:appl:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I scribe a witness mark on one wheel and axle, then pull the wheel off. Not being on the frame your flywheel puller will work. The nylon two lobe cam comes off easily. Fitting the new cam takes a bit of trial and error as the axle diameter falls between drill bit sizes and the hole is too small to use a boring bar so i drill the next size larger then slightly squeeze the cam for a press fit. Thats the only fiddely part. If its right no CA or loctite needed.

Here is a before and after. If you find one for your yourself before York we can just do a wheelset swap at York.









BTW the wheels are square on the axle, lens aberration makes them look skewed.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm guessing that cam is your own creation? I like this option for the Mogul as it's more compact than sticking in the Chuff-Generator. Not a lot of room in these for upgrades. The conventional Mogul I'm upgrading is a pretty new model, it has the single board conventional RailSounds in the tender, so maybe that's why it had the 4-chuff cam. I was hoping the RS board would be command capable, but it just goes nuts when it sees serial data, so obviously they didn't want it to be used for command operation.

Not too likely I'll find one before York, but I figured York was a good place to see if I ran across one.  I looked on eBay, but not many have changed hands in quite a spell, so apparently they're in demand.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Guys, I'm glad we can speak candidly here on MTF, because this is precisely the kind of post that would get severely edited or deleted over at the other place.

The bottom line is this. We who buy Lionel products are model train enthusiasts. Unfortunately, the guys calling the shots at Lionel these days could just as well run a company that builds widgets. They simply have zero train enthusiasm in their blood, so they -- for all practical purposes -- speak a different language than their most loyal client base. And there language is one of widgets, dollars and cents. Period. So until they SEE the effect on the bottom line that comes from low pre-orders or high rates of return due to poor quality product, they're just not gonna give a hoot. They're not bad people, per se. But they're far from the ideal management team Lionel needs now.

At this point, all we can conclude is the quality issues aren't yet "bad enough" for the executives to do anything different or change the way things get done. They're still managing through the quality exceptions -- case by case, while keeping their customer service department here in NC much busier than they wanna be. I've said this before, and it bears repeating here... Lionel is producing WAY TOO MUCH PRODUCT for the market, and nobody is minding the store. I suppose they're probably monitoring customer service for returns to see just how much they can play the roulette wheel by continuing to churn out mediocre or troublesome products until the CS department cries "uncle". 

Result: For the first time since I ran remember, I pre-ordered NOTHING from Lionel's latest catalog: zilch, zero, nadda thing. Because THAT's the language their executives will understand. Sure... there were a couple of goodies in the catalog that caught my eye, but I'm OK waiting to see what gets delivered. And if something I really want happens to be sold-out, then so be it.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm guessing that cam is your own creation? I like this option for the Mogul as it's more compact than sticking in the Chuff-Generator. Not a lot of room in these for upgrades. The conventional Mogul I'm upgrading is a pretty new model, it has the single board conventional RailSounds in the tender, so maybe that's why it had the 4-chuff cam. I was hoping the RS board would be command capable, but it just goes nuts when it sees serial data, so obviously they didn't want it to be used for command operation.
> 
> Not too likely I'll find one before York, but I figured York was a good place to see if I ran across one.  I looked on eBay, but not many have changed hands in quite a spell, so apparently they're in demand.


Thats interesting. You are right the conventional one has a four lobe cam and the TMCC one only two lobes (different part number). Wonder why they did that? In that case its not worth fabricating cams, just buy the wheelset for the conventional engine.

I did fabricate the cam. Not a big deal on the mill but still takes a few minutes.
Even though I can make these I am in the camp that says if you can buy it, buy it because you can't make it as cheaply......in most cases.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Thats interesting. You are right the conventional one has a four lobe cam and the TMCC one only two lobes (different part number). Wonder why they did that? In that case its not worth fabricating cams, just buy the wheelset for the conventional engine.
> 
> I did fabricate the cam. Not a big deal on the mill but still takes a few minutes.
> Even though I can make these I am in the camp that says if you can buy it, buy it because you can't make it as cheaply......in most cases.
> ...


Looks like Lionel has stock of the convention wheel/axle and the pic looks like it's lob for four chuffs. P/N 6101268052


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, it escapes me why they made the TMCC one 2-chuffs and the conventional one 4-chuffs. That truly makes no sense!


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Guys, I'm glad we can speak candidly here on MTF, because this is precisely the kind of post that would get severely edited or deleted over at the other place.


Indeed. Well, I slept on it and decided I'm returning my "Missiouri" Pacific Mountain. In fact, I already did return it. I dropped it at FedEx a couple hours ago.

Here's my Lionel scorecard:

Time in hobby: 1 year 9 months

Legacy engines purchased: 4

-1 engine not yet delivered
-1 engine exchanged and new engine is operational
-1 RA at Lionel in NC for repair
-1 engine returned for refund

:smilie_daumenneg:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Not exactly a stellar batting record, that's for sure.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Not exactly a stellar batting record, that's for sure.


Yeah, it has been awful. I suspect if this "Missiouri" tender was my only issue with Lionel, I would have kept it.

But in my experience Lionel engines are a disaster. I'd rather cut bait while I have the chance. I still have the MoPac Sunshine Special cars on preorder. I might need to re-letter an engine to go with them but so be it. It will be a damn sight cheaper than $1100 too.

Time to turn the page and start dreading the delivery of my final pre-ordered Lionel engine (SD40-2). And when I say "final", I mean forever.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have stopped preordering stuff, I'll wait until they hit the market and then decide if I want it. As others have said, if I miss something, there's always the next time.


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## rgs455 (Sep 19, 2015)

This has been quite a journey for you!


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## JDaddy (Jun 8, 2011)

With 6-8 weeks waiting list, I am not even returning the stuff yet. I have a set of UP PA's that need to go back and I am going to wait and see if they can even repair them correctly.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> Here's my Lionel scorecard:
> 
> Time in hobby: 1 year 9 months
> 
> ...


I'm digging up my old thread to put a finishing touch on my Lionel saga. 

I received my final preordered Lionel engine from the 2018 Vol 2 catalog. It's a Burlington Northern SD40-2 (1933081). The front coupler will not fire. I received an RA and it's back at Lionel. So...

Time in hobby: 1 year 11 months

Legacy engines purchased: 4

-1 engine exchanged and new engine is operational
-2 RA at Lionel in NC for repair
-1 engine returned for refund


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If it weren't for bad luck, you'd have no luck at all.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If it weren't for bad luck, you'd have no luck at all.


Amen. If I ever get a new Lionel engine that actually works, I should race out and buy a lottery ticket.

Sad to say though, it will be a long, long time before I get that chance. They taught this newbie an expensive lesson (for them!). 

I haven't preordered since and I never will. And I won't buy Lionel period until they develop a reputation of "giving a xxxx". I won't hold my breath.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll still buy Lionel, but I'm a see it before I buy it kind of guy.


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