# The Decline of Hobby Shops



## retrolvr

As all of you have noticed your local hobby shops are in decline. It's sad. It is a fun place that not only can you purchase your favorite hobby items such as trains but you can speak live to person that shares the same interests as you. There are many reasons for this. One in perticular reason is very upsetting. No longer will you be able to walk in and buy your favorite A. brand engine or rolling stock while you enjoy the hobby shop expierence. It seems that the current owners/distributors want to make their product only available for sale on their website and not offer to the hobby shops at wholesale. Sounds like that company that begins with the letter H wants their cake and eat it too! What happened to the federal anti trust laws? I will miss it when all the hobby shops are gone. Ir's just not the same buying on line.


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## pookybear

Depends on the location I guess more than anything. I have been close to shops before that are just great to spend hours looking and buying.However the hobby 
shop here in town, the owner has a the personality of a stump! Right when you
walk into the door it is the "you are bothering me look". Needless to say he is
not open much anymore.

Pookybear


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## retrolvr

*Hobby Shops*

You bring up a good point. Like any retail business it's a people business and if you don't like helping the customers you should'nt be there in the first place. The good hobby shops need support not only from their customers but their suppliers as well. The one we have is great with a full line staff that is willing to help you with anything because they are in the hobbies themselves.

retrolvr


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## raleets

While on a Thanksgiving trip to visit my daughter near Indianapolis, IN, I had a few spare hours to go visit some LHS in the area. One was strictly TRAINS, and had been at the same location for nearly 40 years!
The guy who now owns it (for the past 11 years) was the friendliest cuss you'll ever want to meet and VERY knowlegeable about trains. He just loved shootin' the breeze about trains with NO pressure to buy a danged thing!
How cool was that???
I walked out of the store $50 lighter, but sure enjoyed spending every cent!
Bob


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## retrolvr

*Hobby Shops*

That's an awesome story, Bob


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## Conductorjoe

Two problems with the industry have made shops that way.
Model RR came into its own a few decades back and "hobby shops" have a difficult time keeping up with all the new products.

Train stores are cool........However unless one has a very large bankroll it is Impossible to stock everything of every scale and era.

The "special run syndrom" Has ruined the hobby in my opinion. N scale it has got to the point that ALL decent products are special release. They make it they sell it they move on to the next item, if your lucky they might make it again next year.
Many products are offered in June with a delivery of December. They only make what has been ordered.
I know this game very well. Try finding modern N scale Vehicles for example. Very difficult at times.
I hate it but nothing can be done about so you just learn to deal with it.


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## erkenbrand

We seem to be lucky around here. We have a couple of great hobby shops dedicated to trains. Prices are sometimes a bit high on the 'collectible' stuff, but the store is a blast. Packed to the rafters with boxes and bits shoved everywhere. You can find deals if you're willing to dig and willing to do a bit of repair and clean up.


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## jzrouterman

I agree. Hobbyshops used to be a great and fun place to go. But the key words here, for the most part are "USED TO." With this in mind, what I DON'T care about some of the hobbyshops of today is that when you go in to buy something simple like a track erasor of a track hammer, and you're told they no longer have this item in stock. So, you basically have to stand there and deal with it. And the fun afternoon that you had planned working on your railroad is suddenly gone all because somebody didn't order enough of a certain item. That gets real old, real fast. 

On the other hand, the great thing about the internet is if you know what you want, it's a wonderland of selection. If one store doesn't have what you want, then usually five others will! If you don't quite agree with an online store's prices, CLICK!! with the push of a button, in a matter of seconds you'll be shopping at another store where the prices are a little more agreeable. Not to mention that the vast selection of products is almost endless.

For one thing, most hobbyshops today no longer have the type of people working in them as they once did. I agree totally with Pooky Bear's accessment. Besides, most hobbyshops don't have the vast inventory to select from that some of their big online competitors do.

They ususally stock what they think is going to sell. So, you as a customer have a choice to either buy what they have on their shelves or walk out empty handed. Sure they can usually order an item for you. But depending on who their supplier is, will usually largely determine how fast you'll get it and how much you'll have to pay for it. I don't like surprizes. And I don't like having to buy what someone else thinks is good all because that's all what's available. 

Case in point. I don't like being faced with having to buy a particular road name of engine because the one in the showcase is all there is and because of their suppliers, they can't get anything else. Or if I'm wanting to purchase some code 100 track, I don't want to have to instead purchase code 83 because that's all there is or because the clerk is trying to sell me on the idea that code 83 would suit me better. 

So in the final analysis, for the reasons I given above, I welcome the internet. Because from it I've been able to purchase exactly what I wanted, when I wanted it, at the prices I wanted, and I knew exactly when to expect my purchase to arrive at my front door. Not only this, but at the time I order my merchandise, I have the option of either ordering it from my computor or calling the site up on the phone and ordering it from a live person. Either way, my choice. I like that.

Routerman


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## jonyb

I agree with most of the above, but a VERY big reason that the local hobby shops don't exist anymore is because of the internet - Amazon and ebay. I own a small business, and the only way it can survive is because I have a full-time job that has benefits that I wouldn't be able to afford by trying to make a living off of the business. You can buy the same product off of Amazon, ebay, or any of those other hack shops for the same exact dollar that it costs me as a retailer. Then I have to try to turn it around and make a few bucks to cover the astronomical shipping fees, plus enough to cover the light bill. There's almost no profit in something that can be bought from the internet.

And about these local shops not having the little things you want: There's way too much out there for 1 shop (that's trying to make a living) to invest in every single thing out there. 

I'll admit, I do buy a lot from the net, that's because the only shop close to me is an hour away. I drive down there once every couple weeks in my diesel truck, burning $4/gallon fuel, and pay 10% less then retail, PLUS sales tax. I spend a lot of money to support this person and his shop, but it's only because I know what he's faced with - expenses from insurance, taxes, rent, and all the other crap that the government is shoving up his _____ .

Not only do you not get customer service from the internet sites, you don't get much of a warranty. At my shop, if you've bought from me and have a problem with a product, I swap it out on the spot. Local hobby shops probably do that too, good luck with that on ebay.


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## xrunner

I have 2 local shops and only one has an operating layout, the other simply has a straight piece of test track to test engines. To me they need to at least have a small oval with a complete train with DCC/sound. It's just basic marketing to me. Why let prospective new modellers come in and not try to hook them on the hobby? 

I also think they have devoted way too much space to things that don't sell well such as the expensive little painted people (they admit to me they don't sell many) we had a thread about those a while back. They also have a display case with items that I know by asking have been in there for 10 years. hwell:

Most of the time I talk to the guy there about how to avoid buying those expensive items, and discuss how to make items from things at Hobby lobby, Home Depot, etc. He's totally with me on this, but it's not his shop, it belongs to the crabby old lady. She's so backwards they still hand-write down every item you buy with paper and pencil.


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## raleets

I only have one "local" hobby shop that stocks trains and accessories. That would be Rider's, and it's in a strip mall 25 miles round trip from my house. The clerks are friendly, knowledgeable, and helpful BUT their prices are out of this world!  :thumbsdown:
I fully realize it's all about their huge overhead, payroll, etc.
There's another TERRIFIC all-train store about 45 minutes away with pretty good prices. That's the good news. The bad news is that it's 80 miles round trip at 18mpg on my TrailBlazer at $3.25 (now) per gallon. Roughly $14.50 in gas to make the trip. That, my friends, pays for a lot of shipping on an internet order!
I make that trip about once a month because I enjoy the "hands on" browsing that you don't get on-line. I always make sure I buy a few things just to (in my feable mind) make the trip "worthwhile".
In the final analysis, I typically only use the "local" shops when I need something right now and am not willing to wait the typical week for an internet order to hit my porch.
Life is full of choices.
Bob


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## jonyb

I like old-fashioned in a certain sense. The shop I spoke of still writes out paper tickets. He also doesn't have email or internet, but a phone and a list of open hours that he commits to, that's convenient for everybody. He does, however, have a large 16X5 layout in the middle of his store that he operates frequently for customers and children. He kept my 3 year old entertained for 2 hours.... 

People just aren't like they used to be. The hobby shop people that you guys are talking about couldn't care any less if they had a job. They're the type that want to occupy something, or think they are entitled to certain jobs. The days of taking ownership for the newer generation of adults is non-existent.


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## MacDaddy55

*Differentiate between the two!*

Hey Guys, Very valid points on the decline of the LHS. I have two main shops in different locals that have totally different attitudes toward product availability and customer service. Green Bay's Enginehouse Services is a model train only shop that carries a wide selection of products(either in store or via special order) DCC installment, 2 service people for repairs, and 4-5 sales people on the floor. These people are extremely knowledgeable and customer friendly...they make this operation work. The owner has made it a point to make sure EVERY customer is given 100% by his employees. They also have a data bank for EVERYONE who makes a purchase...heck they know my name when I walk in:thumbsup: Those are my boys. St. Paul's Scale Model supply is large Train N-O heavily stocked store that has the feel of an old time establishment. They can special order items that they don't have in stock...but here's the kicker...your gonna pay through the butt for it. They are a little higher in price than EHS but are double the size (they have Scale Airplanes,car,warship,airplane models...and
the "Elephants Graveyard of Trains"(because they are half a city block long!!). Customer service means if they know you...they will sing like Birds...if they don't you feel like your really infringing on their time(I've spent a couple hundred dollars there and they KNOW I'm from Wisconsin) for whatever they do(and its not that they are THAT busy to come out from behind the counter). Kinda Big Store vs. Little Store!! I hope you guys that are looking for YOUR Train Shop find one...because its "You" who keep these small businesses viable so that they can provide customer service,satisfaction, and loyalty!:thumbsup:


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## jonyb

MacDaddy55 said:


> because its "You" who keep these small businesses viable so that they can provide customer service,satisfaction, and loyalty!:thumbsup:


Just wanted to stress that.


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## flyboy2610

raleets said:


> In the final analysis, I typically only use the "local" shops when I need something right now and am not willing to wait the typical week for an internet order to hit my porch.
> Life is full of choices.
> Bob


And if nobody buys the 'big' stuff, before long they won't *BE* there with the little stuff.


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## flyvemaskin

*My local hobbyshop*

I live in Tempe, AZ, and we have a great hobby shop, Roy's Train World, and the guys there are really nice, I can go in and talk trains, buy what I need and they have a great selection. I've had them order stuff I needed and they gladly did that. Tim, the owner is a great guy, and because of this they are a busy store. Sure, I can buy cheaper off the internet, but it's a lot more fun going to my local Hobby Shop. I know they have to charge more to pay the bills, and because of who and what they are, I'll pay the difference gladly. They;re also only a short distance from my home. I do buy off ebay as I can't always afford new equipment for my N scale RR.


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## Big Mike

you all have good points , and after reading some of this I cant help feeling lucky,I live way down in the deep south where model trains dont seem very popular,but we have one train store that sells every scale or gage,lots of accys,ect. and what he dont have he will get it for me off e-bay or where ever he can find it,but the thing that I hate with all manufacture is you see what you would like to have ,but it might come out in dec.2012 if it comes out at all or it's no longer available,made only in limited production............ O well I can allways wait and go to York Pa.

mike


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## oldSmokey

*local hobbyshops ??*

Well all I can say, you guys who live in the States have it pretty good.
My closest hobby shop is about 35 mins away, the guy who owns the place gets
everything from Walthers, I needed a couple of couplers so I asked hime if he could 
get them for me, he said that he would put it on his next order and required a deposit
so I paid him a deposit and got my receipt, 4 weeks later I had not heard from him
so I was passing one day and dropped in to see if they were there, he said no they haven't
arrived as yet, 3 Months later I still have not heard from him, so I went in, he told me that 
he had to have $5000 to put an order in, and he didn't have enough to place the order
well needless to say, I got my deposit back and that was the end of that hobby shop for me.
Walthers is not a cheap place to buy from, and when he puts his 100% markup on, 
he charges like a wounded bull.
Living on the Central Coast of NSW in Australia doesn't lend itself to much in the way of
hobby shops close by.
If I go North there is a hobby shop about 1 hour away, if I go South there is a larger
one 1 1/2hrs away, making for a 3 hour trip there and back, well I thought that I would
be smart and Ring them up before I wasted 3 hours, yes I was told that they had it in stock
and I asked them to put it away for me, gave them my name and phone number and said
that I would head straight down there, well guess what, when I got there and asked about
the item for me, I was told that they haven't had that for about 6 months, I said it was
put away for me and told them my name, the manager assured me that they did not have
this item for about 6 months, he checked on the computer and he was right in what he said.
So I thought that while I was there I would get some fine ballast, at least I could
get on with something, the only ballast they had you could use on a real railroad,
so Strike number two hobby shop off my list.
The next week I went North, well this hobby shop had flexitrack on cheap so I bought a heap of that
and some points, they had very little of anything else, just a few Hornby locos and
that's about it, they sell mostle radio controlled cars and plastic kits.
So now I am left without a hobby shop to go to, Problem Solver!!
Buy Online, I have bought everything Online from the States, All my DCC components, scenery, Loco's
Everything, in the last 2 years I have spent close to $10,000 all in the good old USA.
The prices are good, (way better than here) also a much bigger range of items, and I find
most places if you ask about cheaper shipping they will help you out, the only place
that I find expensive in regards to freight is LANTZ HOBBY out of NY.
One place in PA where I buy from is really really great, I have ordered from him
on our Thursday (Wednesday USA) and I have had it by the next Thursday, Can't beat that.


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## tjcruiser

oldSmokey said:


> Everything, in the last 2 years I have spent close to $10,000 all in the good old USA.
> The prices are good, (way better than here) also a much bigger range of items ...


Thanks for helping to tip our US trade deficit slightly back in our favor! :thumbsup:

Sorry to hear of your LHS woes. I have a couple of (not so specialized) shops near me, but I enjoy bargain hunting online. Gotta pay for shipping, but often no tax.

Best regards,

TJ


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## mr_x_ite_ment

I just visited the one hobby shop for trains that remains in my neck of the woods (about 80 miles from me). I was SHOCKED to see how expensive the railcars and locos had gotten! I would say that the prices on a lot of railcars have almost doubled from what they were 4 or 5 years ago. I know they are roughly 70% higher from what they were in the said time frame. I have no problem with supporting a local store, but with the increase in prices, it is making it harder to do so. There is no denying that you get much better deals online.

I would agree that with the internet shopping that is available, and the convenience of delivery right to your front door, LHS's may not exist for too much longer!

Chad


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## mapper65

This topic has been on my mind for a long time and I'm finally glad to see other people's thoughts on it. I'll apologize ahead of time for what I expect may be quite a lengthy post.

The internet has definitely been the largest demise of the local hobby shop. Let's just say that I feel that I'm very slightly above middle age and was probably finishing high school just before we started to see real computers in the home and about 10 years before the internet as we know it today. Many of the older model railroaders which I hope remain with us for many years to come just don't want anything to do with buying online. That is a foreign concept to them because of how they grew up, and that's ok. Myself, I have a hard time buying digital music online because I want something to show for my money, something I can hold in my hand and put in the cd player. That's the way I grew up. You handed somebody money and they handed you something in return. I buy 90% of my train items online.

If you are reading this and as they say are "In Your Golden Years" and you have embraced the internet and what it brings to the hobby, good for you! There will always be exceptions to the rule.

As some of these older non-internet savvy guys start to leave us, hobby stores are going to see even more of a decline. With manufacturer's websites, forums like this and You Tube videos, we are quickly losing that notion that's been engrained in us all of our lives and that is that we have to hold something in our hands prior to buying it. But now, we can see and hear it run, read people's reviews on the product and shop all over the world from the comfort of our own home not to mention without using a drop of gas.

I'm all for buying products and services locally but I don't think there are too many people that will deny the fact that if you can save money on what you are buying you are in most cases going to go with the option that yields the best overall price. With the ability to buy something online for less money, no sales tax, minimal or free shipping costs, it's almost a "no brainer" as they say to buy online. Sure, you may buy something that needs to be returned and you can't just walk back into the store and get a replacement the same day but for the quantity of items that I have purchased online over the years and the minimal number that I have had to return, I see that as a non-issue. The savings over the years has well outweighed the occasional return shipping charge.

I have to admit that I love going to train and hobby stores. I think partially it's for the camaraderie with others in the hobby. Even if you are not personally engaging in conversation with others that are buying in the store on a particular day, it kind of brings some justification to my addiction to the hobby knowing that there are other people out there with the same interest. Even though I don't have many pieces of O gauge items, I still find myself pretty much window shopping from time to time in stores that are mainly all O gauge. I find it kind of fascinating as to what collectors of O gauge have available to them and I'm open minded enough to enjoy everything about the hobby regardless of scale. Will I miss that if train and hobby stores go away.....maybe a little. I believe that same interaction can be achieved on probably a stronger level though model railroad clubs which I expect will always be with us.

I live near Pittsburgh, PA and about a half hour away is one of the few train only stores in our area still in existence. They have a business model that I feel works very well and if a train/hobby store is going to survive in this world, they should be following what these guys are doing. 

Besides the brick and mortar store they have a couple of guys there that maintain an eBay store. Their actual physical store is always changing. It seems like they take in a lot of trades and buy estate collections. I try to stop there at least once a month. I have bought a lot of used items from them along with some new stuff. They are strongest in O gauge which I do not collect but I've bought G, On30 & HO items from them, both new and used. In many cases they were willing to work with me on prices for their used items. I feel that I've gotten some really good deals and left the store where both myself and the store were probably pretty happy. I don't know too much about their eBay store as far as pricing and selection goes because it mainly appears to be a lot of O gauge items which has not been my main focus. I should also mention that I see these guys at all of the local train shows. All of what I just said about them shows me that they truly have a hold on what is going on in the industry and probably have the best chance at surviving in today's market.

I can probably just group most of the area's remaining train & hobby stores into one opinion. I have bought from all of these guys and I end up frequenting these places throughout the year so my observations I believe are up to date and valid. 

These guys have some dusty products sitting on their shelves that they bought prior to online sites taking off and now they are now stuck holding the bag or maybe “holding the box” is a better way to say it. Had online sites not taken off we would have been less intelligent as consumers because hobby shops are not a prevalent as Walmart and back then we didn't have the information available to us that we do today. Back then, we didn’t have an easy way to compare prices. Now that we have the world at our fingertips, these stores buying and pricing habits have been exposed. It's not too hard to find list pricing online and if you dig a little deeper you can pretty much figure out a very close ballpark as to what the dealer is paying. I feel that when you compare an online business with a brick and mortar store, you're not comparing apples to apples. Yes, the physical stores offer that hands on experience but that's quickly going away as people realize that we don't need to touch things anymore before we buy them. When you get the information together and are able to figure out what a physical store of a certain size is paying for their products, they are just paying too much for the items to sell them in today's market or are just unable to keep their doors open selling for less margin. I can't see how they are ever going to get their money out of some of those items when you can get some of that stuff for 40%-50% less online. A few times I have asked a store if they were wiling to take a price that was at or slightly above what I could buy for online and they refused. That tells me that they are paying too much or are just not able to work from a reasonable markup. I guess there is always that chance that if an item sits there long enough someone that's not serious about the hobby will unknowingly buy the item at the wrong price. If it were me, I would try and at least sell some of that old stuff off at cost or just above so that they can make room for something else that's moving a little better. What they paid to keep the lights on for people to see those products on their shelves now has completely ate up any of the profit that they were planning on making when they bought the item and some of the cost of what they paid for the item has also been eaten away. Some people just can't see what's coming and stores that dabble in trains rather than it being their main products will be the first to go, at least as far as the train inventory of their business goes. They can't buy at the right price because their volume isn't high enough because people are buying online and they are slowly losing business to educated consumers that are truly dedicated to the hobby and not just buying a train for Christmas. Being that they aren't selling anything, buying items to put on the shelf is also out of the question so like I said, they are out of business and just don't realize it.

The local hobby shops only hope when it comes to trains and what a grim hope it is will be that a Dad or Mom who knows nothing about trains wants to buy little Bobby or Sally their first train. They will be the kind of person that needs to go in and touch the item and ask questions before buying the train. That's understandable but this type of consumer probably falls into little or no chance of repeat business. Unfortunately for the store is that if Bobby or Sally grows up with a continued or rediscovered interest in trains, they will more than likely be online shoppers at the point in time that they are spending their own money.


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## flyvemaskin

I think I agree with you in some respects, but I grew up and lived in a small town of 2500 people, no hobby shop within 250 miles here in AZ, so I have shopped on-line for years. No one loves a good hobby shop more than do I, but when one is not available, you deal with it, and I have. I'm retiring, and moving to a town of 199 souls, which means shopping online again, hours from a hobbyshop. I realise few of us are in this situation, but neccessity makes it necessary.


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## flyboy2610

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> I would say that the prices on a lot of railcars have almost doubled from what they were 4 or 5 years ago. I know they are roughly 70% higher from what they were in the said time frame.
> Chad


A good share of that has to do with the price of oil. Remember, plastic is a petroleum product. The plant that makes the cars has to pass the cost along. Then they get shipped by truck or rail, both of which use diesel, another petroleum product. The cost of shipping gets passed along as well. Actually, the cost of oil is a significant factor in why almost everything has gone up in price.


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## tjcruiser

That's a good post, Mapper ... insightful thinking. Sad, in some respects ... (fading Mom/Pop shops, etc.), but a reality in today's tech world.

TJ


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## Snape

*Online is not as much fun*

I agree with the views expressed in the post. I feel saddened to see the Hobby Shops go on the decline. It was so much fun few years ago to go to these shops and share your experience with the people who shared the same interest as you. Online buying wouldnt ever be able to match up to that experience.


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## ricjus001

I see both sides of the argument of LHS vs Internet. In my area, Maine the nearest hobby shop is 1 hour away and in a move to appease many carries primarily R/C and then a lite mix of train, ships, planes/armor, and whatever else. This shop originally a grand LHS that we all think back to, but the son bough it out and his specialty is R/C. Some of my fonder memories in this hobby are going to the old location and just looking for about an hour, and then spending maybe $10 on one car (equivalent to $100 for a 10-12year old in 1992). This was how I also discovered model ship building and a passion for naval history.
Now almost 20 years later, and eight years after taking down my train set my granddad built for me in the 80s I am finally at a point and in a location where I am getting back into trains. My brother-in-law I have managed to hook along at a decent level. I am finishing up a 3x6 temp table for the holidays with him that we are both itching to see our kids reactions. I say all that because if it weren't for the LHS I remember, a lot of this would not be possible.
I also remember swap meets/train shows being a great alternative, those are few and far between now.
The flip side.....
My brother-in-law and I will not have the luxury of taking our kids to the LHS's we both remember, in all likelihood. Financially it is unlikely that I would/will be able to afford to build my layout exclusively through an LHS as my grandfather did 30 years ago.
My reality is that rebuilding my memories and starting a new layout will rely almost exclusively on the internet. I am scouring Craigslist and forums for used lots. In reality these avenues are the train shows of today and the future for most or many people.
So after all this I ask this; what is the goal for all hobbyists talking here? To keep the hobby going and satisfy our needs. That being said is it beyond thought to take the reigns our selves and effectively become the De-facto LHS's for the next generation(s)? Yeah it sucks we dont have the LHSs we long for, but we foster the memories for others and in that the LHS that are disappearing live on.

Sorry to go on, but it just hit me;
Justin,
Naples, ME


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## mapper65

This afternoon I had a primary example of my earlier post in this thread.

Today I stopped at one of the hobby shops here in Pittsburgh. This shop is probably one of the largest, if not the largest in the area. They are a full service hobby store with RC cars, trains and various other paint and hobby supplies. It seems like a pretty equal amount of attention is giving to each hobby as far inventory goes.

I stopped there kind of as a follow up to some items that the store had at a local Greenberg train show a few weeks ago. They were really trying to make some deals at the show but still weren't at the price that I thought they should be for the items to sell. They had a bunch of On30 stuff which makes up about 35% of my train collection. I was looking at a Climax and a Shay at the show. The guys at the show said "We need to sell this stuff and we're willing to give you a great price that you can't pass up". They best they would do at the show was $100 each. Keep in mind that these were DCC ready with no decoder or sound installed at the factory. If you guys are familiar with www.thefavoritespot.com you know that they are hard to beat. You have to bounce between their eBay store and their main website to see what the best price is for what you are looking for but they sell those same engines on their eBay store with DCC & sound for anywhere between $112 to $125 plus a minimal amount of shipping. It just depends on what you can win the auction at. I asked the guys at the show if they would take $75 each. They said they couldn't go that low. Being that I'll get them someday and will probably just buy them from The Favorite Spot, I walked.

When I stopped by their store today low an behold on the shelf was about 25 On30 boxes. I asked a different guy that didn't work the show if those were the ones from the show. He said that they were and they probably still had a Shay & Climax. I asked what the best price he would take for them would be being that they were making deals at the show and they still didn't sell. He said "Those list for $275 but I would sell them to you for $150 each". I said "those guys wanted $100 at the show and I thought that was a little high being that I can buy the same engines with sound and DCC for $125". He said that didn't sound right so I pulled up a few completed eBay auctions on my iPhone and showed him the $112-$125 price range plus shipping. He said "those guys are taking a loss at that price or they may be hot because he was paying $125 each for the ones without sound and DCC. The Favorite Spot has been around for a good number of years and I highly doubt that a company like that would be able get get their hand on that much "hot" product. I just think they have found the right way to buy and sell and that's reflected in their price.

I told him that the most I could pay was $75 each and at that price I would probably only put DCC in and not worry about sound because if I was adding $100 sound decoder then I might as well buy them for $125 fully equipped. He said he understood but couldn't let them go for that price. I told him that I understood his side also and I said "Don't take this the wrong way but I'm really starting to think that we are at that point in time that online retailers and manufacturers are putting brick and mortar stores out of business". He politely asked what I meant by that. I said "I can only believe that you are telling me the truth about what you pay for those items and if that's the case, you are paying more than I can buy the same engine fully equipped with sound and DCC and buy a quantity of 1 with no minimum order where your supplier probably has a minimum order". I had an item in my hand that I was going to buy and continued to walk around the store a little while longer to see if anything struck my interest. This was an item that I could have bought online but it wasn't very expensive and being that it was only a couple dollar item, I wasn't really losing anything buying it at their store. 

When I started to leave his area, for lack of better terms, he kind of had that look on his face like his dog just died. Now we had a polite conversation but I think maybe this guy may have understood what I was getting at and this was the first time he had come to the realization of what is about to happen to the brick and mortar store.

I really think that quantity rules and companies like Bachmann are really able to offer online retailers the best price because they are able to move a lot of product. Obviously Bachmann wants to sell trains and an online retailer can really sell at a much lower markup being that they can rent some warehouse space that doesn't have to look pretty but needs to be just functional enough to be able to stock and ship items from a place that the buyer will never see. There is no way a brick and mortar store can compete with that.

It's a sad situation for the physical stores but a harsh reality. I just don't see anyway around it because they are in a catch 22. If they drop their price to be competitive and get their buying power up, they can't make enough money to keep their lights on, pay their rent, mortgage, taxes on their property along with a few shifts on employees. Probably even more important is that I would be surprised if some of those hobby stores only get 50 potential customer's in the store during the amount of time they are open each day and if they are lucky, 50%-60% buy something. The online store will get customers 24 hours a day even when there is nobody there. The online customer doesn't require someone being at the online store to make a purchase and as long as the customer entered their information properly, the next morning they box the stuff up and ship the items out. The only additional work that the online store has to do is purchase inventory and maintain the website.

As a consumer we have such a great upper hand when buying but unfortunately it's at the expense of the higher priced companies and at this point, that's the physical stores. There may be some kind of hope for those guys but I just can't see what it may be. I was originally going to say that it's not like we are buying shoes that we need to go into a store and try on but then again, zappos.com and amazon.com have great return policies and I've bought multiple pairs of shoes from one of them with great success and have not purchased from the other one although I know that they sell shoes.


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## xrunner

Good post Mapper. 

Last weekend I was going back to one of the 2 LHS, the one with lots of N scale rolling stock, because I wanted another centerbeam flatcar. I was looking at the stuff and also listening to a conversation that the owner, a sortof grumpy old lady, was having with a guy and his son. They needed some sort piece of track and weren't sure if it was one of two pieces that the store had there. 

He said " Can I buy both pieces and bring back the one that we don't need?"

She quipped "Well, I'd prefer that you find out what piece you need and buy just that piece."

LOL. I'm like, lady, you have no clue ...

To me, they should have a small oval track with a small train equipped with DCC and sound running slowly all the time somewhere in the store. Maybe N scale or even Z scale (they do have some of that). This to really hook and inspire new customers. I think many people just don't know what these trains are capable of now, and seeing something move and make noise I think really would help sales. Sometimes it's like they just expect the product to fly off the shelves without any work on their part. Now, the guy that helps her isn't too bad, but I've asked him about this and some other things, like the fact _she hasa to have every single item on every purchase written out with pencil and paper_, another LOL. He can't get her to change. Man, I hope he buys the shop if she decides to retire for good.


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## norgale

Mapper I like your reasoning but you are avoiding the addition of shipping and handling for online purchases. It used to be that postage was a couple of bucks for just about anything but now the S&H is very much a part of the deal. Walthers doesn't care what you buy and the minimum S&H is $10. There's a guy on here that just won an ebay auction for a pretty good bunch of trains at $36 and thought he had a great deal. Well the S&H was another $35 so that makes the deal a little more costly. True he still got a good deal but S&H can't be ignored anymore. I bought an engine direct from Atlas a few months ago. I could have bought it cheaper at other online places but it wasn't in stock yet and I wanted to be sure I got this particular engine. The shipping was $14 and I think that's a lot.
No doubt online buying is crushing the numbers on B&M stores and that's why the B&M stores are getting an extra 12% off from the distributors. Then the stores go online to sell the product and the online guys get kicked in the butt.
Lots of not so fair practices going on in this industry but money talks and BS walks. The more you can spend the less you will pay. You go back to that hobby store and tell the guy you'll buy four engines at $75 and I'll bet he'll give that some serious thought. Pete


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## Hellgate

The part that scares me has been touched on several times. If it is more cost effective to buy online (which it is), and the LHS fades away, so will the hobby. I am 31 and I got into it because of my father. However I am the 1% of my generation. Not too many people my age even know what Lionel Trains are. That scares me. I went into Toys R Us the other day to see if they carried any Lionel stuff, and the girl never heard of it. There needs to be a marketing and advertising campaign from Lionel that is similar to their campaign in the 30's and 40's. Lionel needs to attract the younger community or else there are going to be a lot of "Box of Trains from attic" on Ebay in 20 years.
That is my thoughts on the reality of it all


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## Hellgate

More.....
As a marketing major, it drives me nuts. If Lionel put on a marketing campaign to attract the youth of today, while their parents/grandparents know about Lionel trains, it would be successful and there would be a hope for the future. It just seems to me that Lionel is hanging on to the fading generation. I don't mean to offend anyone on here, I know everyone wants to see this great hobby continue. I just don't understand why Lionel isn't doing anything about it. If they wait too long, a campaign launch will not be successful. It just drives me nuts


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## mapper65

norgale said:


> Mapper I like your reasoning but you are avoiding the addition of shipping and handling for online purchases. It used to be that postage was a couple of bucks for just about anything but now the S&H is very much a part of the deal. Pete


I kind of disagree with that and I'll tell you why. A buyer needs to be smart enough not to get themselves taken by grossly being overcharged for shipping and handling. I see sites all over the web that are just completely unfair with what they are charging. Yes, shipping is part of the deal but as a savvy buyer you need to take that into consideration before entering your credit card and making your purchase.

I just saw someone buy a g scale engine on eBay at a price of $550 which was a pretty good deal for the item that he was buying but then the shipping was $75 which after adding that to the selling price could have turned it into a bad deal. In this case the guy made a good move. He was overcharged for the shipping by $50 but he was buying something that wasn't made for the last 15 years and will probably never be made again. The collectable value of the item was well above what he paid and he could probably re-list it and make a couple of bucks. Had he been buying an item still in production and paid the $75 shipping fee, he would have been much better off waiting for the right deal to come around. You still need to consider all of the costs involved and 80% of the time, without trying very hard, you'll get a better deal online. That's just a bad move if a buyer doesn't consider shipping charges in the overall price of what he is buying.

If you compare a lower online price and no sales tax with a reasonable amount of shipping then you will be well ahead of the game. I had mentioned that I buy from www.thefavoritespot.com either direct on their website or from their eBay store. They always combine shipping so you may pay $12 for the first item and a dollar or two for the next few items. If you were buying one $120 item from them which will more than likely be well below your local retailer's price along with $12 shipping, you would have paid more at the brick and mortar store and in most cases 7% sales tax along with the gas to and from the store, that just doesn't make sense to buy it locally. I would think you could easily have $140 into the item + gas for the item purchased locally.

In a way I feel bad cutting these local guys out but times have changed.

Hellgate had mentioned "The part that scares me has been touched on several times. If it is more cost effective to buy online (which it is), and the LHS fades away, so will the hobby."

I really think that online buying will strengthen the hobby. As a buyer, I am able to by more items at better prices than ever before. The supply chain used to be.........manufacturer, distributer, hobby store, consumer. It took a long time for the manufacturer to see if a product that was sitting on the shelf at the hobby store was going to be well accepted. Now, some of these online sellers are having items drop shipped directly from the manufacturer and the item is going from the manufacturer to the end user, people like us. Those sales aren't mystery sale being that the hobby store didn't buy it and leave it sit on their shelves and wait what could be years to see if it's going to sell. The manufacturer knows that I'm buying an item from an online retailer and that item is going right on my track, not sit at a hobby store and wait for someone to buy it. They can easily see the demands of the industry and have better, more suited product offerings to target what people are buying.


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## raleets

mapper65,
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the simple math of buying local vs. buying online.
I always factor in 1) gasoline, 2) sales tax, 3) my time.
There nearest LHS is 28 miles round trip. My ride gets 18 mpg around town. Gas is currently $3.30 here in Flint. The State sales tax is 6%. Those costs incurred by shopping the LHS generally are higher than S&H online.
That's why I only buy from the LHS when I absolutely need it NOW.
Furthermore, the LHS is Riders and the help there is BAD, BAD, BAD, so I don't much care about helping them stay in business.
Just my .02 on this subject,
Bob


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## sstlaure

Not to mention that some online shops offer free shipping if you order enough (Walthers ships free if your order is >$150) If I need something from them, I give my Dad a call to see if he needs somethings as well, we can usually piece together enough stuff to make the minimum, if not, I just wait a couple months on things that aren't needed immediately. For those things I need right now (turnouts, joiners, etc) I go to the LHS (or in my case many different shops - there are 3 shops within a 30 mile round trip, and a couple more if I open the range to 60 miles round trip.) I try to avoid a dedicated trip to the store, but I rarely pass up a chance to stop in when I'm already in the area for something else (I have to pass 2 of the shops on my daily commute home, so there is plenty of opportunity for me to get anything I need.)


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## mapper65

raleets said:


> mapper65,
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the simple math of buying local vs. buying online.
> Bob


You couldn't have said it any better. My detailed explanation was simply responding to norgale's statement of "Mapper I like your reasoning but you are avoiding the addition of shipping and handling for online purchases." 

It all has to do with looking into that before you make that online purchase. I don't disagree with him that shipping can make online purchasing a bad deal but that's only if you haven't spent the time finding the right deal rather than just giving in to buying online without the proper research.

I see people on eBay that will get into a bidding war with other people on an item when there is a listing for the exact same item that's listed as Buy it Now for less money than what they are currently bidding back and forth at. For example, I've seen an item listed at Buy it Now for $55.00 + $9 shipping. A little further eBay search will show the exact same item where a few people are biding against each other and the item's final ending auction price ends up being $68 + the $9 shipping. If they just would have taken their time looking on eBay, once they were outbid by someone, they could have just did the Buy it Now on the item that was listed at $55. I just can't understand why they don't do their homework. There is no pressure sitting in the chair at night watching tv scouring the web for the best price let alone eBay which will let you put your searches in order by lowest price including shipping. 

I sometimes question people's rationality when I see them at a LHS walking out with some big ticket item(s) that I'm positive they could have done better by buying online. I would love to just stop them and ask them if they shopped the price online. I often wonder if their purchase plays into the "have to have it now" syndrome.


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## mr_x_ite_ment

One area where a local hobby shop is nice is when you need just a few couplers, or wheelsets, etc. The shipping would make these items more expensive buying online. On a high-dollar item, I think buying online is obviously better, even with the shipping figured in. Sadly, I don't really have any LHS's to choose from anymore, except the one that is about 80 miles away. 

Chad


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## norgale

Look up "The Family Hobby Center" in Naples,Florida. This store is all by itself for maybe a hundred miles with no competition what so ever. Every price on the site is full retail and the store has been there for over 40 years. I've been in this store but admittedly not for many years now. It's tiny compared to most hobby shops and there's no way the guy has all the stuff on the site in stock. But he's still there and doing business everyday and has outlasted three hobby shops in Naples over the last twenty years and they are all gone.
but him. Must be doing something right. Pete


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## mapper65

We have one of those shops here in Pittsburgh. They have positioned themselves in a fairly wealthy community, their prices range from a little too high to extremely out of line but people still buy there. I think it's mostly because of the "I want it now rationality". 

I looked The Family Hobby Center up online out of curiosity and they are doing what many other small mom & pop companies are doing. They are selling through a virtual store front listed as hobbyshopnow.com which is owned by Horizon Hobby out of Champlain, IL. I don't know all of the details but they either lease software to let these guys sell online or it pulls from Horizon Hobby's inventory in exchange for commission paid to mom & pop hobby store. Obviously its probably not very cost effective to the consumer but from the mom & pop hobby store standpoint, there is probably little risk, low maintenance and they may even make some money without trying very hard. 

If you look at these links starting with The Family Hobby Center you will see the similarities between the sites. They all look the same except the header at the top of the screen. The last link is the who is record on hobbyshopnow.com showing that these sites are owned by Horizon Hobby.

http://h1071720.hobbyshopnow.com/ 

http://h1072147.hobbyshopnow.com/ 

http://h1070145.hobbyshopnow.com/ 

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/hobbyshopnow.com 

When I get some time, I want to research pricing between all of these sites along with Horizon Hobby's main site. I'm curious if there is any price difference. Surely Horizon Hobby is not competing with these small spinoff sites but we'll have to see.


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## bombardiermike

I agree! Ordering online is convenient, but the LHS just really seems to suit me well. I even like the smell there! (probably comes from the woodland scenics stuff) Although shipping is usually fast, I still don't like paying 7 bucks for it and waiting the 3-4 days. Also seeing the shelves full of trains makes me really happy. I am lucky that there is still a big hobby shop full of trains that is still open not to far away.


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## Carl

The economy and the move of manufacturing the China has put a cloud over the local hobby shop. What is see is the economy causing many to rethink their spending due to uncertainty in what the future will bring. The LHS is seeing less traffic coming through his door and the shops I visit in Houston, Austin and Dallas are reporting more "tire-kickers" than buyers.

It seems that the manufactures are seeing a double-edge sword. The buyers of their products are not there in the number they have seen in the past. So, what we see today is "PRE-ORDER"(the manufacture is saying he can not guess at how much to make and that his past info. source (the LHS network) is in the dark also. The other side of the sword was the moving of manufacturing to a county with low-cost labor. Now the workers in that country are demanding better wages, so the manufactures have backed away.

As the economy improves, we should see improvement.

I believe strongly in the dealer network. The LHS is a great place to go to see and touch what is new, to talk about the hobby, read the many magazines he has on display, and get help.


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## Razorfish

Sadly, we have the exact same discussion at the RC planes forums for all the same reasons.


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## ICRR Junkie

Does anyone have any hobby shops in Illinois they can recommend? I dont know of any good ones near me, and I do like road trips. Any help?


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## wolfeinmane

pookybear said:


> Depends on the location I guess more than anything. I have been close to shops before that are just great to spend hours looking and buying.However the hobby
> shop here in town, the owner has a the personality of a stump! Right when you
> walk into the door it is the "you are bothering me look". Needless to say he is
> not open much anymore.
> 
> Pookybear


You hit the nail right on the head Pooky. I have tried striking up conversations with most of the employees/owners of my closest local rail shop, and even the next closest shop, and I might as well be talking to myself. The sideways nasty comments are used all too often ie., "Maybe you didn't hear me sir, we don't give any information on DCC!" "We are all DC modelers here!"

The one shop has been there a long time, and it's still being run VERY old school. They allowed smoking in the store for many years and the left over nicotine stench is really bad, and I smoke! And I always get, "Oh you are going to use a debit card, sigh, I will have to write a receipt." I'm sorry did my business get in the way of your sitting on your butt all day?

They are constantly shaking their heads and muttering how sales are 'way' down. You go to look at their presense on the internet and their website could have been done by a 3 year old, no a 3 year old could have done better. They have no affiliations with local train clubs, (when I lived in Indiana, the shops would give discounts to club members), and all their prices are top of the line retail. The only time I go in there now is to buy one piece of flex track or something small like glue, and get out pronto.

I shed zero tears for these two shops...


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## Gansett

It's difficult for a LHS to compete with the on-line big guys in price but at the very least they should treat a customer with just a little courtesy, just say hello when you walk in. Both shops local to me would let you wander aimlessly until they told you it was closing time, get out. You have to stand in front of them at the counter to get their attention waiting on them to finish their game of solitaire or finish chatting with their buddy on the phone.
I truthfully don't know how they stay open, there's never any cars in the parking lots.


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## gofisher2

JackC said:


> It's difficult for a LHS to compete with the on-line big guys in price but at the very least they should treat a customer with just a little courtesy, just say hello when you walk in. Both shops local to me would let you wander aimlessly until they told you it was closing time, get out. You have to stand in front of them at the counter to get their attention waiting on them to finish their game of solitaire or finish chatting with their buddy on the phone.
> I truthfully don't know how they stay open, there's never any cars in the parking lots.


There are some great hobby shops around. Unfortunately, the ones I ran acccross with great inventory were in California, and had been well established, and I now live in DC. But I will share what a guy told me oher rdy in a shop in Maryland. I asked about HO (seams every shop around here has Lionel and only a smal smattering of HO and N) and he told me there was so much HO available he didn't know what to order (he was a lionel guy). He was a small shop. I must say most shops I've been in are friendly and like the guy in Maryland, are willing to order whatever you need. It takes a lot of up front cash to start any business dependent on having lots of inventory. When you do run accross someone good, they deserve your business. Even if you need to purchase the Walthers catalogue so you can order from them.


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## brylerjunction

wolfeinmane said:


> You hit the nail right on the head Pooky. I have tried striking up conversations with most of the employees/owners of my closest local rail shop, and even the next closest shop, and I might as well be talking to myself. The sideways nasty comments are used all too often ie., "Maybe you didn't hear me sir, we don't give any information on DCC!" "We are all DC modelers here!"
> 
> The one shop has been there a long time, and it's still being run VERY old school. They allowed smoking in the store for many years and the left over nicotine stench is really bad, and I smoke! And I always get, "Oh you are going to use a debit card, sigh, I will have to write a receipt." I'm sorry did my business get in the way of your sitting on your butt all day?
> 
> They are constantly shaking their heads and muttering how sales are 'way' down. You go to look at their presense on the internet and their website could have been done by a 3 year old, no a 3 year old could have done better. They have no affiliations with local train clubs, (when I lived in Indiana, the shops would give discounts to club members), and all their prices are top of the line retail. The only time I go in there now is to buy one piece of flex track or something small like glue, and get out pronto.
> 
> I shed zero tears for these two shops...





JackC said:


> It's difficult for a LHS to compete with the on-line big guys in price but at the very least they should treat a customer with just a little courtesy, just say hello when you walk in. Both shops local to me would let you wander aimlessly until they told you it was closing time, get out. You have to stand in front of them at the counter to get their attention waiting on them to finish their game of solitaire or finish chatting with their buddy on the phone.
> I truthfully don't know how they stay open, there's never any cars in the parking lots.





gofisher2 said:


> There are some great hobby shops around. Unfortunately, the ones I ran acccross with great inventory were in California, and had been well established, and I now live in DC. But I will share what a guy told me oher rdy in a shop in Maryland. I asked about HO (seams every shop around here has Lionel and only a smal smattering of HO and N) and he told me there was so much HO available he didn't know what to order (he was a lionel guy). He was a small shop. I must say most shops I've been in are friendly and like the guy in Maryland, are willing to order whatever you need. It takes a lot of up front cash to start any business dependent on having lots of inventory. When you do run accross someone good, they deserve your business. Even if you need to purchase the Walthers catalogue so you can order from them.




I wish you guys would relay some of the messages to the manufacturers/distributors that think if you dont have a hobby shop then you are scum.
We do shows (and I mean A LOT of shows) we talk to everyone that comes to the table and we know the customers at the shows so well that we know what railroads they model and stuff like that. We answer questions and provide suggestions even if it doesnt make a sale. We also carry parts and stuff that many hobby shops refuse to carry because "they dont want to be bothered" with a "$2.00 sale" I actually had another dealer at a show tell me I was wasting time as we have one - two tables set up with books that have only HO and N parts in them, he said I need to sell more DCC Engines and other high end items. At the end of the show he was complaining to me that he sold 2 engines the entire show and people were cheap. Meanwhile I was complaining because I only had 3-4 days to scramble around to my part sources to fill up my books because of the amount of stuff I had sold.
My bottom line is show dealers are becoming more of a need now that the LHS is going away but yet many manufacturers just dont get it...


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## NIMT

We are just a small on-line / phone / email business and We like it that way. We been doing it for a few years now.
I work very hard to form a friendly and helpful relationship with all our customers regardless if it’s a single small sale or a whole fleet being refitted with DCC and sound.

I understand why distributors and manufactures don’t give just anyone dealership options, because everyone would become a dealer. It also helps in keeping the riff raff out of the business.

We supply materials for all aspects of the hobby to all over the world. We specialize in the DCC supplies and materials for installs.

We are in an area that even if we were to have a store front I might get 2 to 3 visitors a year!


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## New Berlin RR

I see it like this, I do my math on local VS ebay/online and 90% of the time I always wind up going to the LHS, heck $4 - $5 for a car for my trains? Ill take the 10 min drive, best part is when there Ill just go over to my friends place and run trains with him....

also if you guys and gals ever stop in Louisville be sure to hit up roundhouse electric trains (closed sonday and tuesday), great people there, they will let you wonder aimlessly as long as you want, don't care if you are just looking, they help you no matter what!!!


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## gofisher2

New Berlin RR said:


> I see it like this, I do my math on local VS ebay/online and 90% of the time I always wind up going to the LHS, heck $4 - $5 for a car for my trains? Ill take the 10 min drive, best part is when there Ill just go over to my friends place and run trains with him....
> 
> also if you guys and gals ever stop in Louisville be sure to hit up roundhouse electric trains (closed sonday and tuesday), great people there, they will let you wonder aimlessly as long as you want, don't care if you are just looking, they help you no matter what!!!


I've been there, great store and people, unfortunately, I'm not in SOKY anymore.

I go to train shows, shop at local train shops and not so local stores, and shop on line. My wife and I enjoy exploring train shops in the cities we visit. I even buy from e-bay now and again. This hobby is like everywhere else, lots of people from every walk of life and personality enjoy it. I've met people in clubs that are great and others I would not associate with. I've been a member of a club that treated each other terrably and it went under. Stores are no different. Some owners should just be hobbiest and not own a store. I stopped complaining and focus on whats good about our hobby and there is a lot of things and people that are great. When I run accross a store that is not friendly, I vote with my feet and they are not worth even a second of thought.


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## BigTank216

Heck i just wish i had more than 2 stores to choose from here where im at.... Depotland store is a house lol and az for hobby town usa here they ack like u go steal sumin their .. but good ole days of a friendly store is gone... now it all about money and for u to get outttttttt


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## New Berlin RR

Heck yea they are, I even gone to the L&N Trains and things, they are ok but I prefer Roundhouse more, simply because Roundhouse has a bigger selection of HO scale things and along with other scales, they also have people always talking to ya, and I know the guy there who does the DCC things!



gofisher2 said:


> I've been there, great store and people, unfortunately, I'm not in SOKY anymore.
> 
> I go to train shows, shop at local train shops and not so local stores, and shop on line. My wife and I enjoy exploring train shops in the cities we visit. I even buy from e-bay now and again. This hobby is like everywhere else, lots of people from every walk of life and personality enjoy it. I've met people in clubs that are great and others I would not associate with. I've been a member of a club that treated each other terrably and it went under. Stores are no different. Some owners should just be hobbiest and not own a store. I stopped complaining and focus on whats good about our hobby and there is a lot of things and people that are great. When I run accross a store that is not friendly, I vote with my feet and they are not worth even a second of thought.


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## Reckers

NB, I'd like to echo your opinion of The Roundhouse. Those guys are the best I've ever run across and like nothing better than to have someone wandering the store just looking at stuff and chatting with them.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Luke 221

Went to the Big Hobby store two towns over today. You know the kind, large, tons of R/C cars, Airsoft guns, slot cars, model kits, and yes trains. So I walk to the HO section and Im looking for some self tapping screws to attach trucks to an old MDC boxcar kit. First they tell me to look for the screws in the "airplane" section. Then I ask for a train specific salesperson and of course that person is a female (not anything wrong with that per se) but I asked her if she owns any trains at home... Big surprise-- she said NO!! 
Ok so I ask about the screws, and she tells me to go to Home Depot. Last I checked, Home Depot is not a "hobby shop"... Before I leave, I check out the O gauge section, and they have lots of old n.o.s. MPC/ Lionel freight cars from the 70's and 80's. Can you say sticker shock!! $70.00 for a tank car.. I mean who is buying this stuff at those prices. Any wonder why the young people are not into trains these days?


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## bombardiermike

Luke 221 said:


> Went to the Big Hobby store two towns over today. You know the kind, large, tons of R/C cars, Airsoft guns, slot cars, model kits, and yes trains. So I walk to the HO section and Im looking for some self tapping screws to attach trucks to an old MDC boxcar kit. First they tell me to look for the screws in the "airplane" section. Then I ask for a train specific salesperson and of course that person is a female (not anything wrong with that per se) but I asked her if she owns any trains at home... Big surprise-- she said NO!!
> Ok so I ask about the screws, and she tells me to go to Home Depot. Last I checked, Home Depot is not a "hobby shop"... Before I leave, I check out the O gauge section, and they have lots of old n.o.s. MPC/ Lionel freight cars from the 70's and 80's. Can you say sticker shock!! $70.00 for a tank car.. I mean who is buying this stuff at those prices. Any wonder why the young people are not into trains these days?


That's a great story :appl: but what really caught me was your signature! It sums up what is wrong with model trains these days (especially modern equipment), and why young people like me have just given up trains altogether! Now I design and build 3D printed model cars, which is awesome because it's cheap, simple, and I can make whatever the heck I want! It feels great not being at the mercy of Kato, Athearn, Atlas etc, but I wish the same could be said for trains :rippedhand:


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## Luke 221

Here are some observations; 

1) People buying 90% of their locomotives and rolling stock second hand at train shows.
2) Local Hobby stores closing due to decrease in customers (i.e. high prices)
3) Big Hobby stores fill their shelves with overpriced Bachman and wont support the actual hobbyists. (said Bachman boxes have two or three layers of price stickers indicating that they have been re-priced several times and still are unsold)
4) Online retailers are price gouging and raise their prices yearly based on mathematical formulations (i.e. Walthers)
5) People "hoarded" old Athearn blue box due to a perception that they wont be able to afford the hobby in the future. 
6) People switching to N scale because it is the only "affordable" scale left.
7) 3D printed models will be made by someone in their basement and offered for sale on e-bay at much lower costs. 
8) Scratchbuilding may make a come-back

Lets see, If your model train company sells locomotives (HO) for $300, an average hobbyist will only acquire one or two over a course of say 5 years. Total sale $600/5 yrs -- *not a viable business sales model. *
Pre-order or built to order sales gimmick used by others ( O gauge) has already given the hobby a perception of the "rich man's" hobby.
There has to be a backlash at some point to the $1800 O Gauge engines, $300 HO scale diesels annd $50 HO scale boxcars.


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## Chet

This is a subject that I am in the dark about because I have no hobby shops at all in my area. I have to buy almost everything on the internet. I do like that you can have quite a savings over full retail price, but I would much rather see the products in person. 

We do travel frequently and when ever we are in the area of a decent hobby shop I will make a point of stopping in. 

Years ago, in the 80's I did have a dealership with a number of suppliers such as Walthers and others and couldn't stock a lot because I had a limited market. I was selling to members of a model railroad club almost 200 miles away as well as a couple of local modelers. Everything was special order, but I wasn't looking to make money, just selling at cost plus shipping. This way I could leep purchasing in order to keep the dealership active. 

There are so many more products available today than there was back then and I can easily see how it is impossible for any shop to be able to keep even a percentage of what is available on hand. 

I have noticed that a couple of the hobby shops that I would stop and visit on my travels have closed. Keeping inventory at the price of some of todays locomotives and freight cars for instance would be quite an investment. 

Many hobby shops that are successful are now on the internet also. I know that if it weren't for the internet I wouldn't be able to buy much at all.


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## norgale

I see the new trains as expensive but way better quality than what we had to buy 30 years ago. You want sound you pay for sound. Same for DCC compatible and all that detail somebody has to pay for. I have engines I bought thirty years ago that run just fine but I have two I bought two years ago that run wayyyyyyy better. Thirty years ago I paid twenty to thirty bucks for a loco. The new ones were $160 new and $50 used. On line sales are your best bet and the classifieds here on the forum is excellent for good buys. It does pay to shop around.
One thing that gripes me is the way the distributors give their customers discounts. My distributor gives me 40% because I'm mail order. A brick and mortar shop gets an additional 12% to help with the rent and other expenses of running a store. However the B&M stores have all gone to the internet too so there is a big discrepancy of 12% that the internet only shops have to pay. That 12% usually gets eaten up by freight but I have to take the freight out of my 40%. Big disadvantage there.


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## Gansett

Luke.
I'm sure people do buy at train shows but 90% seems extremely high. I've bought off Craigs but never at a show.
There's many factors why hobby shops are closing. How's the economy where you are? Still not the greatest here in the northeast. Two internet friends are employed in the oil bidness equipment maintenance in Texas and are barely hanging on. 

I bought a brand new truck in 1972, $2,100.00, my last new truck in '05 had a sticker of $30,000. I'm looking around and see trucks that cost more than my first house! 39k Is GM gouging me?


[


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## norgale

If you buy new you pay top dollar. Personally I've had great luck with used trucks with 25k or so miles on them. Any defects have been fixed by then and I save the initial depreciation which is generally about 25%.


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## Old_Hobo

JackC said:


> 39k Is GM gouging me?


That's what "made in America" now costs.....

Same is true with trains.....that's why everything is made in China....cheaper than being made in the U.S.A......


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## Lehigh74

I'm glad I live in SE PA. There are at least 3 train stores within 40 minutes of me and they are all staffed by friendly people that like trains.


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## Cycleops

Just about every one of Luke221's supposed reason hobby shops are failing can't be substantiated. Bachmann overpriced? Come on. People buy blue box because they like them. What's the use of buying n scale if your eye sight can't deal with them. Most enthusiasts are advanced in years. How do you know someone will only buy two $300 locos over five years? Silver buyers often have more disposable cash than younger people. Buying secondhand? This has always happened. And so on.
I used to run a model shop and I can tell you high rents are one reason they're going. They need to adapt to new areas of interest if they're going to survive. You need to be very big or to specialise, offer good prices and service, this may not be possible with a shopfront, which is why many have gone on line.


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## monsterram1500

*train land in long island ny*

This was my yelp review of this place. Please excuese the cussing as i was very angry and upset when i wrote it, which was the same day i visited this shop. There is sister store in n Brooklyn which is better, but not by much. 

Let me start off by saying that the store in Brooklyn is much better in customer service than the one in Lynbrook. It has the worst customer service I have ever experienced. I have gone to this store twice in hopes that my first bad experience was due to people having a bad day, but that was not the case. The employees working there are a bunch of unhappy assholes. Helpful? No, they are bunch of grumpy, unhappy, angry assholes who treat you like you are asking for their first born child. I asked simple questions about landscape. I told the guy I wanted to do a desert scenery. He fucking questioned me as if I were a certified geologist. Does it look like I have a fucking sign around my neck that says "geologist"? NO! You're better off getting your questions answered online from people who love the hobby unlike these idiots. They act like they are better than you.
Every question I asked, he treated me like I was unholy and I didn't belong in the hobby. If you don't like your job, then fucking move on. These people will not get my business; I'd rather spend my money with Walther's trains online and pay more, than fucking return to that hell hole. I was trying to convert some of my old train cars to fit the knuckle couplers. When I was mentioning the idea I had to make the conversion work, this guy told me to throw out my cars, they are not worth upgrading. REALLY!?!?!?! I am working within a budget. It's not like I can ask Donald Trump to loan me a million dollars so I can buy the **** you want to sell me because what I own is not the holy grail of train cars! Just like electronics's, with trains your paying for the name as well. Every time I asked the guy for a certain product, he huffed his breath, as if I was asking him to fucking preform such a hard task. Are you fucking kidding me! They have no concept of customer service, OH! that's right I as not some old fart that been in the business long enough to know everything, they made me feel like I was an idiot for asking any questions at all and not knowing everything to begin with. They were extremely rude and unprofessional and did not know how to treat customers!


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## CTValleyRR

Luke 221 said:


> Here are some observations;
> 
> 1) People buying 90% of their locomotives and rolling stock second hand at train shows.
> 2) Local Hobby stores closing due to decrease in customers (i.e. high prices)
> 3) Big Hobby stores fill their shelves with overpriced Bachman and wont support the actual hobbyists. (said Bachman boxes have two or three layers of price stickers indicating that they have been re-priced several times and still are unsold)
> 4) Online retailers are price gouging and raise their prices yearly based on mathematical formulations (i.e. Walthers)
> 5) People "hoarded" old Athearn blue box due to a perception that they wont be able to afford the hobby in the future.
> 6) People switching to N scale because it is the only "affordable" scale left.
> 7) 3D printed models will be made by someone in their basement and offered for sale on e-bay at much lower costs.
> 8) Scratchbuilding may make a come-back
> 
> Lets see, If your model train company sells locomotives (HO) for $300, an average hobbyist will only acquire one or two over a course of say 5 years. Total sale $600/5 yrs -- *not a viable business sales model. *
> Pre-order or built to order sales gimmick used by others ( O gauge) has already given the hobby a perception of the "rich man's" hobby.
> There has to be a backlash at some point to the $1800 O Gauge engines, $300 HO scale diesels annd $50 HO scale boxcars.


Honestly, I'm not really sure what good will come of dredging up this 3+ year old thread and rehashing the worn-out doom and gloom discussion, but at least Luke added some new fodder in the form of... well, I'm not sure what.

My take:
1) I'd like to see the source of this "fact". In my experience, most of what is selling at train shows is NEW, not used. Local swap meets may excel in the used market, but that's kind of their purpose.
2) Well, yes, local hobby shops are closing, but it's a lot more complicated than this simplistic reasoning.
3) Can't say on this one... I've never been to a big hobby store. But yes, stores do re-price shelf-worn merchandise. If they know what they're doing, they mark it down, not up, but if they're using LIFO inventory accounting, they may re-price all stock when they get new items. Anyway, really big stores rarely mark prices directly on merchandise; they put it on the shelf and use a computer to control prices.
4) If by price gouging, you mean "charging high prices", then I guess I agree that prices do seem to go up. Back when I went to business school, that was called "inflation" and it happens everywhere in market economies. The US CPI goes up about 2% per year, so something that cost $20 back when I got into the hobby would cost $42.50 now, all else being equal. And all else isn't equal. It's another very complex issue that defies simple explanations. And oh, BTW, if you want to give your workers a raise, and maintain profit margins (margin is one of those annoying mathematical relationships that you refer to), then you have to raise your prices. Walthers is a really bad example, BTW, because they deliberately DON'T sell anything for less than MSRP so as not to undercut their dealers. The only products they control the pricing on is their own branded (and LifeLike) merchandise.
5) Ok, I'll bite: where did that "fact" come from?
6) Not me. I have too much invested in HO. So does everyone else I know (in whatever scale they have). Besides, as others have pointed out, even HO is a little small for my eyes. Forget N or Z. I also reject your basic assertion that N is cheaper than HO.
7) I hope so. I'm all for progress.
8) Again, I hope so. It's a skill every modeler should have. But not essential to enjoyment of the hobby.

On second thought, if this is what we're getting, perhaps this dead horse should be permitted to rest in peace.


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## CTValleyRR

Monstertram, I have dealt with Trainworld in Brooklyn for years, mostly by phone (in the early days) and now on-line, but I did make a few trips there when I was at Columbia U.

I found them busy, without a lot of time for pleasant chit-chat, but no more surly and mean than I find New Yorkers in general.


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## monsterram1500

:dunno:7


CTValleyRR said:


> Monstertram, I have dealt with Trainworld in Brooklyn for years, mostly by phone (in the early days) and now on-line, but I did make a few trips there when I was at Columbia U.
> 
> I found them busy, without a lot of time for pleasant chit-chat, but no more surly and mean than I find New Yorkers in general.


They are the cheapest i know of. My local guy in white plains ny is awesome but only open 4 days of the week (tues-sat) i don't have weekends off. I'm on the hunt for a new hobbie shop, but in the mean time i will probably buy online. The one in brooklyn helps to an extent. I don't bother with small talk, i do my research on line and then go buy.


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## JNXT 7707

While I complain long and loud about the state of new model train prices (don't see that ending, BTW  ) I have a sense that the hobby is in pretty good shape - and that my own perception of prices is grounded in an earlier time and I still think those prices should be the same!
Yes it could be called a "rich man's hobby" if one did all their buying at the LHS or the pre-order route online. But hasn't that always been the case?
I buy almost exclusively (except for some parts/paint supplies) at train shows and ebay. Not only out of necessity but also because it is fun! Never know what treasure you will find and all that. And, because I like to rebuild the old stuff and bring it "up to speed". 
Now if they would only bring back the Blue Box line....


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## Old_Hobo

I don't think we will ever see the Blue Box line come back, but my LHS has a ton of mint in-the-box Blue Box kits for sale....he buys train collections, and lately has happened upon a collector that bought 4 of every kit he could find back then, and never built them!

He's selling them for $10 (cdn) apiece......


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## JNXT 7707

Old_Hobo said:


> I don't think we will ever see the Blue Box line come back, but my LHS has a ton of mint in-the-box Blue Box kits for sale....he buys train collections, and lately has happened upon a collector that bought 4 of every kit he could find back then, and never built them!
> 
> He's selling them for $10 (cdn) apiece......


Well hobo I was just being wishful and nostalgic concerning the BBs. In fact they are quite plentiful at train shows and yes, as you point out even some enterprising LHS has them at times. Thank goodness Athearn made a few tons of them!

The only drawback at train shows is going through the boxes of boxes of them when other treasures are on out tables calling out to me and time is limited.


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## Old_Hobo

That is true....whereas I can spend literally hours at my LHS going through them....


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## Luke 221

Cycleops said:


> Just about every one of Luke221's supposed reason hobby shops are failing can't be substantiated. Bachmann overpriced? Come on. People buy blue box because they like them. What's the use of buying n scale if your eye sight can't deal with them. Most enthusiasts are advanced in years. How do you know someone will only buy two $300 locos over five years? Silver buyers often have more disposable cash than younger people. Buying secondhand? This has always happened. And so on.
> I used to run a model shop and I can tell you high rents are one reason they're going. They need to adapt to new areas of interest if they're going to survive. You need to be very big or to specialise, offer good prices and service, this may not be possible with a shopfront, which is why many have gone on line.



Let me just say this. Paying $10 dollars for a hot dog at the baseball game is a lesson in supply and demand. Paying $10 dollars for a hot dog at your local gas station is robbery.

In regards to the bachmann. I have a box full of old bachmann that was bought maybe 10 yrs ago and they are exact same molds used for the stuff today. To that I will add, that this Hobby store had old stock Bachmann in the Box with Horn Hooks mind you at $18 a car and new Bachmann at $25 a car. They bought out a collection once and put almost retail on everything. That to me is overpriced and price gouging. I dont have a problem with the $25 dollar car so long as it was not made 10 years ago and has sat on the shelf the entire time. 

The screws that I wanted to purchase were little self tapping size #2 and yes I bought the airplane screws and cut them down with the dremel tool. Now if you think that Home Depot has that tiny of a size, well best of luck to you


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## Gansett

Excuse me for asking but have you ever paid rent or a mortgage on a commercial property? Paid utilities, insurance, wages for employees and the required tax burden they impose. 
Don't forget a few thousand dollars in inventory sitting on the shelf collecting dust. 

Maybe you need a different hobby. One that doesn't require any cash outlay.


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## Lee Willis

I have mixed emotions and conflicted opinions about "the decline" of hobby shops in the last fifty years. I view it more as change, mostly for the good, but also a bad element.

My local, and favorite, hobby shop closed about two years ago. I bought all my pre-ordered locos, MTH, Lionel and WBB, etc., through them, paying higher prices (only 7% discount) compared to the internet, because they were there for me with scratch-building supplies and such when I needed them, and it was truly enjoyable to go by once or twice a week just because. 

But I cannot deny, and I gain benefit every week, from the rise of the internet retailers. Today I have the biggest, best, and lowest-price train store in the world at my fingertips, and it really helps. Twenty years ago, I used to shop M. B. Klein's store in downtown Baltimore once a month - when I was there on business: it was one of the better stores that could get me stuff I needed, etc. Now I shop their internet warehouse (modeltrainstuff.com) any time I want - availability is better, inventory much, much bigger, and prices (even when considering shipping) lower. Hard to argue with that, plus there is Nassauhobbies and Patstrains and Mr. Muffin and . . . 

All in all, I like it like it is today much better than thirty years ago, before the internet. But I do long for my now-closed local store, and if it was still here, I'd still be giving them all the business I could just because . . . but they aren't.


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## Old_Hobo

And they likely aren't there now because of the internet.....a Catch-22 indeed.....


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## CTValleyRR

One example does not a trend make. From my perspective, the ballpark is doing the price gouging, not your local 7-11. You basically have no choice but to buy the ballpark's hot dog if you want one. If you don't like the price at 7-11, you can always drive down to Cumberland Farms in search of a cheaper hot dog.

Same thing goes for hobby stores: you have lots of options. Either the store will realize that its prices are too high because it can't turn inventory, or it will lose business to someone who will sell cheaper.


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## AFGP9

This discussion of whether to buy on eBay or local hobby store (if you have one), cuts both ways. Where I live I have a store 25 miles south, one 50 miles west, and one 65 miles north. All have there little selling quirks. The one thing they all have in common is they must charge shipping same as an eBay purchase. Plus they all charge sales tax. You have a fuel bill to get there which should figure into the cost of what it is you are wanting. 
With eBay you are still paying shipping, and hoping the shipper does not over charge, (as a seller on eBay who knows rates, I see this done a lot). So it is a toss up. Yes eBay pricing is usually cheaper but you must figure shipping cost into the final price when bidding and know when to stop bidding, let go and wait for another time. 
Like other people on here I too like the train/hobby store atmosphere where you can talk trains with guys and the owner. But since I am an American Flyer collector there isn't anything I can buy except supplies and listen to the conversation. Yes I know Lionel/Flyer is there but I buy 1948-1966 AF. So when I do go to any of theses stores I am in the vicinity for another reason and either need something or just stop to soak up the atmosphere and pick any information. The store 25 miles from me, which I consider my local store, has a great multi scale layout. Jerry tells me it has made him a great many sales. As Jerry tells it, getting products from suppliers has been a problem because they are watching their cash flow as well. Getting something ordered and the getting it in a timely manner isn't always the stores fault.
That is another reason driving eBay sales. Supply. In summary, I guess when you live a few miles away it's eBay for convenience or the train store for the fun. I suppose eBay might have played a part in the demise of some brick and mortar stores but I also think customer service from the owner or worker comes into play as well. 

I almost forgot. I came across a old train store about 50 miles northwest of me that has been in business for 50+ years. He has shelf after shelf of Athern blue box stuff and even wooden car kits. There are hundreds. The owner and his dog are run the place. All the shelves 1x6 wooden shelves, the boxes are covered in dust, the floor probably saw a broom once or twice in it's life. The guy knows every thing there is to know about HO from the past to present. He attends all the big wholesale shows to keep informed and it seems he knows every manufacture. The guy is pure entertainment. If I were into HO we would be best friends and I would be buying since his prices unbelievably cheap. As he told me, "I got no overhead, the building was paid for when I bought it, and I built my own shelves back then". He uses an old hand crank adding machine and writes all tickets with pencil and paper. All orders are done over a land line corded telephone.
What a trip the old boy is.


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## Cycleops

The 'one man and his dog' shops are virtually extinct now. That guys place sounds like a real find. It's virtually impossible to run a shop single handed these days, and when he and his like goes that will be it. You certainly don't get the entertainment value shopping on eBay.


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## Lehigh74

There is one in the Frazer / Malvern PA area called Trains R Fun. A man, his dog and cigar. Sells mostly MTH and Lionel O gauge. Decent prices. Some lightly used. He is also an interesting guy.


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## DJTrains

No one has probably mentioned this yet (hahaha) but, one usually gets a much better deal online. Our area hobby shop went south several years ago. I'm glad. They were unfriendly and their prices sky-high.

The decline I'm concerned about most is the decline of the hobby in general. We need more Polar Express movies!


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## Mr.Buchholz

Tough call both ways. There is a model train only store near where I used to live. I moved an hour north a year ago, and cannot get there as much. Went yesterday and picked up a couple of things. In the year I've been away from the store, his prices have gone up a wee bit, and his selection on used stuff and lots gone down. He also stopped carrying a brand of HO vehicles that I am fond of.

Up here where I live now, we have one hobby shop in town, but his train stuff is minimal (he can order things, mind you). As much as I love hobby stores, I can find more specific things on eBay for a decent price (except for the shipping, sometimes). I also like to go to the local train show every February (which is now 10mins from my place), and a bigger national show about 45mins north in the spring.

It's a roll of the dice either way.

-J.


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## gunrunnerjohn

For O-gauge stuff, think about a trip to York, you'll suffer *Hobby Shop Overload*!


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## CTValleyRR

gunrunnerjohn said:


> *Hobby Shop Overload*!


No such thing! You can never have too much train stuff. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn

Not too much train stuff, just sensory overload.


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## blackz28

I'm lucky a new hobbyshop opened up last nov & its expanding to take up 2 stores in 
ft myers www.metrotrains.com:thumbsup::thumbsup: my son dropped 700 bucks on locos
when he came down to visit last week so they love him


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## DJTrains

I'd be more into local hobby shops I guess if I bought the new stuff. I just can't get over the vintage Lionel 0 goodies. Pretty much ebay rules in this field.


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## thedoc

DJTrains said:


> I'd be more into local hobby shops I guess if I bought the new stuff. I just can't get over the vintage Lionel 0 goodies. Pretty much ebay rules in this field.



In the past I have found that if I was careful, there were some items I could buy on EBay and sell at York, and then there were other items that was just the opposite. Knowing the market was very important.


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## thedoc

I owned a hobby shop that sold trains for awhile and one of the first questions a supplier would ask was "Is it a sole-proprietorship or a partnership?" It seems they had problems with Partnerships.


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## Gansett

It's not just hobby shops. The place my wife buys yarn from is close to being gone, they can't buy yarn for what places on the internet sell it for with free shipping. Automotive speed shops are also disappearing. Mom and Pop auto parts stores are all but gone locally. Walk into any chain auto parts store to get a part and there's a very good chance you'll hear ''We have it at the warehouse, it'll be here tomorrow.''
It's rare to find a retailer of any kind with a substantial inventory. Wave of the future.


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## thedoc

There are still some people who want to pick up and hold the item before they buy it, and here is where a hobby shop or a train show have the advantage over mail-order. 

With auto parts, my daughter learned the hard way to buy genuine parts for her car. She had 4 oxygen sensors and didn't know which ones needed replaced. So she ordered 2 from amazon, but they were generic and not specific, the car didn't like them. She finally went to the dealer and got the exact replacement items and when I replaced all 4 the car was fine.


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## thedoc

Speed shops are disappearing because it is getting more difficult to modify your car from mfg. specs. I used to be able to go to a dealer and get very specific information about parts, now they only have the part number of the OEM replacement.


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## CTValleyRR

The problem is, inventory costs money. Anyone with any training in retail will tell you that the important thing is to turn inventory. IOW, bring it in, put it on the shelves, sell it and restock. To improve inventory availability without increasing costs as much, many chains have adopted a centralized warehouse model, where one warehouse will support several stores, so they can reasonably meet demand / inventory turn, but keep lower quantities of slower-moving items.


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## Cycleops

Its true, when I managed a model shop in the UK my branch was part of half a dozen. There was a central warehouse which also distributed their goods to other independent shops. This allowed me to keep high stock levels and provide a good service. If I didn't have it and another shop did I could have it the next day. Because of the sound financial footing of the group I could also order reasonable amounts of popular items from other distributors.
Smaller independent shops won't be in such a strong position which is why they cant carry so much stock. The way around this would be to operate from home with an online service.


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## Old_Hobo

> The way around this would be to operate from home with an online service


Which is the exact reason local hobby shops are disappearing........

Like I said, it's a Catch-22.....


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## Gansett

I have two shops less that 5 miles from my home.
Here is the web site of one

http://www.hobbyri.com/

the other

http://aahobbies.com/

AA did have a web site up and running until several years ago. Some sort of disagreement occurred and no more web site.

I honestly don't know how either pays the light bill. I'm going to go ''off the rails'' for a moment and while I do like to see and hold what I'm buying I'm doing more and more on-line purchases of all sorts. Simple economics. For some saving a few bucks may not be a big deal but if I can wait a few days, hey I'm nor ordering a kidney on-line, and save a few $ especially with NO SALES TAX and free shipping it becomes a easy decision..


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## raleets

At least 80% of my layout was purchased online, either from eBay of other online merchants. About 10% was bought at train shows, leaving only 10% that cost me top dollar at the local brick and mortar joint.
The wife and I also buy most everything for the household online, usually with free shipping and NO 6% Michigan sales tax. We also try to use Sam's Club for printer ink, etc.....it always makes me sleep better when I score a good deal online. 
Bob


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## Gansett

The twins will be 19 months old in 2 days. Twins aren't twice as expensive they're 4 times expensive when we as grandparents babysit. 4 bassinets (sp?), two for their house and two for here, 4 minicribs, 4 full size cribs. Just purchased 4 toddler beds. 4 Gracco car seats @ $299.00 ea,

Not a single item purchased at a local brick and mortar store <edit.. that includes hobby related items also.> as the same items could be purchased on-line for less plus free shipping and in most cases no sales tax.

Doing more and more buying on-line than ever before.


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## Old_Hobo

But Jack, those purchases don't put train hobby shops out of business, so that's ok....:laugh:


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## norgale

Me too Jack. I hate to go shopping if I can avoid it. Groceries I have to have but anything that can be bought on line I get. You ought to get a quantity discount. Ha!


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## Gansett

Just added a comment about hobby related items, skipped my mind at the moment. The boys received a wooden Thomas set up and then a powered one. Both were bought on-line from Amazon.


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## raleets

For awhile I thought Amazon prices couldn't be beat, but lately I've been doing some more careful online comparison shopping and have scored several deals at lower prices than offered by Amazon. Not many, but a few, and it was worth the extra effort.
Bob


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## Gansett

I check for availability at Amazon, Kohl's, Target, Baby's-R-Us, Toys-R-Us and yes even Wal-Mart. Sometimes you'll find the manufacture's web site offers items for sale directly to you.
Now if it's an apples to apples comparison why pay more than you need too? No sales tax is a benefit and of course the free shipping helps. 

btw I've been using RockAuto for car parts. Needed a a/c compressor for the kids car, dealer said 7-800 bucks, NAPA was almost 600. Rock sent it with free shipping and it was here in 3 days. $500 and it was in the manufactures' packaging.


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## raleets

I have found shopping via computer saves LOTS of time, gas, shoe leather, frustration, and $$$$$$.  
Unless I need something NOW I'll shop for it online and wait a few days for it to hit the porch.
Bob


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## DJTrains

raleets said:


> For awhile I thought Amazon prices couldn't be beat, but lately I've been doing some more careful online comparison shopping and have scored several deals at lower prices than offered by Amazon. Not many, but a few, and it was worth the extra effort.
> Bob


Almost always ebay will be lower cost than Amazon. Amazon has to cover their free return shipping coverage. 

When it comes to non-railroad stuff, I've often found Walmart's online offerings cheaper than both Amazon and ebay. Online they offer a lot more than they stock in their stores and online purchase shipping is free to a local Walmart store. And too, returns are much easier. I just purchased a rifle scope via online Walmart and saved a good $10 over the others.


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## CBirnley

As long as I can buy the experience, insight, and friendship of the local hobby shop online - I'll shop online - oh wait...


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## DJTrains

raleets said:


> I have found shopping via computer saves LOTS of time, gas, shoe leather, frustration, and $$$$$$.
> Unless I need something NOW I'll shop for it online and wait a few days for it to hit the porch.
> Bob


I agree 100%, Bob :thumbsup:


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## CBirnley

I'll assume those who shop online do not ask for local tech support from their LHS.


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## CTValleyRR

DJTrains said:


> Almost always ebay will be lower cost than Amazon. Amazon has to cover their free return shipping coverage.
> 
> When it comes to non-railroad stuff, I've often found Walmart's online offerings cheaper than both Amazon and ebay. Online they offer a lot more than they stock in their stores and online purchase shipping is free to a local Walmart store. And too, returns are much easier. I just purchased a rifle scope via online Walmart and saved a good $10 over the others.


Personally, I would pay good money NOT to have to go to my local Walmart...


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## CTValleyRR

CBirnley said:


> I'll assume those who shop online do not ask for local tech support from their LHS.


Nope. Most of them come here.


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## thedoc

It might be worth noting that some hobby shop owners just get fed up with dealing with dishonest customers who will lie and cheat, and then there is the "over-helpful" customer who will spoil a sale before you can get to it.


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## CBirnley

CT...that's funny right there. My personal favorite is when they walk in and they're mad because they bought something off the Internet that doesn't work, but, they got a really good deal on it! I appreciate the Internet on commodities, especially if it takes from the "Dirt-Marts" of the world, but it really ticks me off when I see people walking in and just want to use the local shop owner for his or her knowledge.


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## raleets

CBirnley said:


> CT...that's funny right there. My personal favorite is when they walk in and they're mad because they bought something off the Internet that doesn't work, but, they got a really good deal on it! I appreciate the Internet on commodities, especially if it takes from the "Dirt-Marts" of the world, but it really ticks me off when I see people walking in and just want to use the local shop owner for his or her knowledge.


CBirnley,
Did you ever wallop a sore spot  ......my wife is a degreed Naturopathic Doctor (ND) with a wealth of knowledge in non-pharmaceutical, herbal medications. She also owns and operates a brick and mortar herb shop called The Center for Natural Health.
At least twice a week she gets visits from folks who have bought el cheapo crappy vitamins, supplements, etc., etc. from Sam's Club, Wally Mart, and the corner Dollar Store. They actually have the nerve to carry them into her store, which sells ONLY top-shelf quality goods, and then ask her if "this is any good" or "can you match the price"..........you get the picture......she, being very kind and sympathetic to their needs, will often spend upwards of an hour informing them of what they really need to address their health issues only to have them mutter a feeble "thanks" and walk out the door without spending a dime.
Every night she comes home with another one of those stories my BP hits the gong, but I guess the world is filthy rich with free loaders, right? :smilie_daumenneg:
Moral of the story.......if you want it on the cheap do some up front research so you have half a clue about what you're buying. Then, if it doesn't pan out, bite the bullet and SHUT UP!
End of rant,
Bob


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## thedoc

I once had a woman come in with her son and some trains and track that she had bought, complaining about the trains bouncing off the track. I explained how both rails of the Bachmann EZ-Track had to be in the joiners, and she yelled, that was too complicated for her son to do. He was not very bright, and she wasn't much smarter.


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## thedoc

raleets said:


> CBirnley,
> Did you ever wallop a sore spot  ......my wife is a degreed Naturopathic Doctor (ND) with a wealth of knowledge in non-pharmaceutical, herbal medications. She also owns and operates a brick and mortar herb shop called The Center for Natural Health.
> At least twice a week she gets visits from folks who have bought el cheapo crappy vitamins, supplements, etc., etc. from Sam's Club, Wally Mart, and the corner Dollar Store. They actually have the nerve to carry them into her store, which sells ONLY top-shelf quality goods, and then ask her if "this is any good" or "can you match the price"..........you get the picture......she, being very kind and sympathetic to their needs, will often spend upwards of an hour informing them of what they really need to address their health issues only to have them mutter a feeble "thanks" and walk out the door without spending a dime.
> Every night she comes home with another one of those stories my BP hits the gong, but I guess the world is filthy rich with free loaders, right? :smilie_daumenneg:
> Moral of the story.......if you want it on the cheap do some up front research so you have half a clue about what you're buying. Then, if it doesn't pan out, bite the bullet and SHUT UP!
> End of rant,
> Bob


Bob, it happens with trains too, but not very often.


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## Florida RR

Conductorjoe said:


> The "special run syndrom" Has ruined the hobby in my opinion. N scale it has got to the point that ALL decent products are special release. They make it they sell it they move on to the next item, if your lucky they might make it again next year.
> Many products are offered in June with a delivery of December. They only make what has been ordered.


I went all the way back to the beginning of this thread and I found the above.

I have to agree. I really don't like it when "a major manufacturer" (which shall remain nameless) now sells in N scale only that which is ordered 6 months in advance and only within a 4-5 week time period, after which you are out of luck. I understand that they have to control costs, but there has to be a better way.

As for the LHS, they have all disappeared where I live. There is one small one left an hour away, but a trip there 2 weeks ago revealed that they have virtually nothing in stock. We used to have several, including one big one devoted solely to trains. It's sad really. In 1999 I visited several hobby shops on a trip around Florida, and I picked up an Amtrak car or two at each one. By the end of my travels I had a complete train. These days, just log on to FeeBay, and there are 10,000 pieces of rolling stock for sale shipped to your door. Yes, it's convenient, but somehow it's not as fun as my adventure to different shops collecting whatever cars they had in the display case.

I can see first hand one problem facing many LHS. I see new old stock locomotives that are listed at their online shops as old as 1997. You can't make money if your stock is sitting on the shelf that long. Add to that the fact that every piece of Micro Trains rolling stock ever made will eventually end up on eBay used at drastically reduced prices, and we have a second major problem. I have bought roughly 30 pieces of rolling stock in the past 6 weeks, and all of it was bought used. It's not that I wouldn't have bought some new stuff at the LHS, but I no longer have that option.

I don't see that we have much choice, at last not where I live. FeeBay and the online mega stores seem to be the new normal and service after the sale is not an option.

-Florida RR-


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## CBirnley

thedoc said:


> I once had a woman come in with her son and some trains and track that she had bought, complaining about the trains bouncing off the track. I explained how both rails of the Bachmann EZ-Track had to be in the joiners, and she yelled, that was too complicated for her son to do. He was not very bright, and she wasn't much smarter.


...the "Apple and tree" phenomenon. You are a saint for dealing w folks like this.


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## CBirnley

raleets said:


> CBirnley,
> Did you ever wallop a sore spot  ......my wife is a degreed Naturopathic Doctor (ND) with a wealth of knowledge in non-pharmaceutical, herbal medications. She also owns and operates a brick and mortar herb shop called The Center for Natural Health.
> At least twice a week she gets visits from folks who have bought el cheapo crappy vitamins, supplements, etc., etc. from Sam's Club, Wally Mart, and the corner Dollar Store. They actually have the nerve to carry them into her store, which sells ONLY top-shelf quality goods, and then ask her if "this is any good" or "can you match the price"..........you get the picture......she, being very kind and sympathetic to their needs, will often spend upwards of an hour informing them of what they really need to address their health issues only to have them mutter a feeble "thanks" and walk out the door without spending a dime.
> Every night she comes home with another one of those stories my BP hits the gong, but I guess the world is filthy rich with free loaders, right? :smilie_daumenneg:
> Moral of the story.......if you want it on the cheap do some up front research so you have half a clue about what you're buying. Then, if it doesn't pan out, bite the bullet and SHUT UP!
> End of rant,
> Bob


Bob, I feel bad for your bride, but can understand her wanting to do the right thing for these folks. I have just recently gotten interested in model railroading. I have been frequenting a local hobby shop and gaining a tremendous amount of insight from the proprietor. While he knows I am new and will be slow to take off, he has been incredibly generous with his experience and insight. While I do not have any track or even benchwork put together as of yet, I did purchase an engine from him. I felt it was the right thing to do to show him that I am committed to using his store and appreciate all that he offers. Well, that and it was a preeeeety machine! Kudos to your bride for investing in a potential new client...I sure as heck would not have the patience!


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## blackz28

norgale said:


> Me too Jack. I hate to go shopping if I can avoid it. Groceries I have to have but anything that can be bought on line I get. You ought to get a quantity discount. Ha!


lol you should still take a ride to metro trains love those guys :appl::thumbsup:


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## Cycleops

thedoc said:


> I once had a woman come in with her son and some trains and track that she had bought, complaining about the trains bouncing off the track. I explained how both rails of the Bachmann EZ-Track had to be in the joiners, and she yelled, that was too complicated for her son to do. He was not very bright, and she wasn't much smarter.


Yes, you do get some real thickos for want of a better word. I once had a guy who wanted a refund on his purchase. When I said he could only change it for something else he informed me I had to do it as it was 'The law'!


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## thedoc

CBirnley said:


> ...the "Apple and tree" phenomenon. You are a saint for dealing w folks like this.


I just sighed, and took the stuff back. Better to loose a customer like that, than to have it happen again. I was wrong about that.


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## thedoc

Cycleops said:


> Yes, you do get some real thickos for want of a better word. I once had a guy who wanted a refund on his purchase. When I said he could only change it for something else he informed me I had to do it as it was 'The law'!


Yes, and some people think that "the customer is always right" is some kind of law.


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## Old_Hobo

I think it all depends on what side of the counter you're on......


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## raleets

Old_Hobo said:


> I think it all depends on what side of the counter you're on......


So very true......however, respect for a person's knowledge, time, and professionalism should (IMHO) always be rewarded whether they're a degreed Doctor, hobby shop owner, or waiter.
Common sense and common courtesy go a LONG way. Sadly, that's very lacking in today's society!
Bob


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## norgale

blackz28 said:


> lol you should still take a ride to metro trains love those guys :appl::thumbsup:


I see their web site and look through it all the time but they never post any prices and that kinda scares me a little. They just finished enlarging the store so there will be a lot of new stuff in there soon I would think. Some day I'll go up there for something and stop into the store.


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## Gansett

Of course it has to be realized our on-line purchasing contributes to local brick and mortar stores closing, putting people out of work and loss of tax revenue. 

Same as the big box stores did to local merchants. Friend had to close his store because he could not buy washers, dryers, stoves etc for what Lowe's and HD sold them for.

Tasca Ford was a huge Ford dealer. Now it's Tasca Ford, Lincoln, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, RAM trucks, Mazda, Nissan, Volvo. The old man has to be spinning because now there's a Tasca Buick, GMC dealership. Gone are the small auto dealerships.

This is progress.........


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## gunrunnerjohn

Let me see if I have the concept.

We should still be using the horse and buggy because going to the automobile put the buggy whip makers and blacksmiths out of work? Yep, that makes perfect sense!


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## CBirnley

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Let me see if I have the concept.
> 
> We should still be using the horse and buggy because going to the automobile put the buggy whip makers and blacksmiths out of work? Yep, that makes perfect sense!


So the experienced LHS is selling a lesser quality product than the importer/exporter who knows nothing about trains, other than selling on volume?


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## gunrunnerjohn

The basic principle of "free choice" is you get to choose. If the importer is selling an inferior product, you are free to shop elsewhere. By the same token, if the LHS is not competitive, you're free to ship elsewhere.

Note that the LHS does have some possible advantages as well, sometimes price is not the only determining factor, service after the sale is also very important. 

If the LHS is selling a lesser quality product as you state, I'd buy from the importer/exporter that "knows nothing about trains", because he obviously knows about quality.


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## raleets

GRJohn,
And what's your learned advice for the PROFESSIONAL brick and mortar shop owner who is asked for FREE commentary on competitive merchandise purchased elsewhere, either online or at the corner discount store?
Bob


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## CTValleyRR

raleets said:


> GRJohn,
> And what's your learned advice for the PROFESSIONAL brick and mortar shop owner who is asked for FREE commentary on competitive merchandise purchased elsewhere, either online or at the corner discount store?
> Bob


From my retail experience: keep doing it. That personalized customer service is the one advantage that the internet can never have over your brick and mortar location.


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## Old_Hobo

gunrunnerjohn said:


> We should still be using the horse and buggy because going to the automobile put the buggy whip makers and blacksmiths out of work? Yep, that makes perfect sense!


Yep, very similar to why (almost) all of our train stuff is now made in China (which people complain about), nobody wanted to pay the high U.S. prices for the product, so they moved it off continent so it could be made for less.....

Same thing happened to car manufacturing......everybody wants to be paid top dollar to build them, but nobody wants to buy the product because it's too expensive....so now the cars are made in Mexico, Canada, Korea, etc.......

Cutting off your noses to spite your faces.....


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## Florida RR

I predict that trains will go the same way that RC helicopters went a few years ago, and that is moving not only away from the LHS but away from US importers, distributors, and retailers period. That means consumers ordering directly from China. Many people are not aware that this is happening, but it sure is. Shipping from China to the US has become cheap and quick, removing the physical barrier to trade. Importing now does not have to occur by the container load in cargo ships. Like my RC helicopters, the N scale locomotives that I bought recently are all manufactured in China. There is no reason why China can't ship them directly to US consumers just like they do with RC helicopters, completely cutting out the entire import and distribution chain, including the LHS. People make the argument all the time that you get better service from a LHS and/or US distributor. That hasn't been my experience. On occasions when I have had problems with RC helicopters, the problem always has been resolved to my satisfaction. FeeBay and AliExpress go out of their way to make sure any disputes are resolved fairly. Furthermore, these days if you are up at the right time of night you can have a live chat with a seller in China. I have done it several times with RC helicopter sellers in China, and last year I wanted a tent for camping that simply was not available in the US. I had an online chat with a seller from AliExpress, and he was more attentive to my needs and gave me better advice than any local sporting goods shop in my area. The tent arrived at my door 7 days later. Last month, I needed a new light for my aquarium. My local aquarium shop has some nice ones, but they are not what I needed. So I got online. I found exactly what I needed, complete with YouTube demo videos from the seller in China, and I also had a live chat with them (I was up at 2 AM). Not only did they have a fantastic product that fit my needs, for an additional $20 they unsoldered and replaced some of the LEDs per my specifications. Try that at the local aquarium shop - it's not going to happen. So, when ordering direct from China rises to this level, consumers more and more will just buy direct. People complain about big box stores and online retailers. The next thing people will be complaining about is direct overseas sales. Like it or not, buying overseas direct is here to stay, and there isn't any reason why sellers in China can't do with model railroad products what they have done in other hobbies. I already see some N scale scenery and signal products on AliExpress and FeeBay, but I haven't ordered anything. Locomotives and rolling stock will show up next as online overseas direct offerings, and like RC helicopters, they will be produced on the same assembly lines in China that produce the brands that we buy now. This is what happens when you move your manufacturing overseas - you lose control over your brand and your product distribution.

I'm not an advocate of overseas direct sales. I do think it is where we all will end up, like it or not.

-Florida RR-


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## gunrunnerjohn

raleets said:


> GRJohn,
> And what's your learned advice for the PROFESSIONAL brick and mortar shop owner who is asked for FREE commentary on competitive merchandise purchased elsewhere, either online or at the corner discount store?
> Bob


When I'm at the store, I freely give advice to people on stuff purchased elsewhere. It's an investment in the future. Obviously, if someone comes in time after time and asks for help and advice and never buys anything, I might change that stance. However, that hasn't been an issue so far.


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## raleets

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When I'm at the store, I freely give advice to people on stuff purchased elsewhere. It's an investment in the future. Obviously, if someone comes in time after time and asks for help and advice and never buys anything, I might change that stance. However, that hasn't been an issue so far.


John,
You've been fortunate! 
My wife is regularly victimized by cheapskate dumb butts who drain her brain for professional information and then go to big box stores and buy crap for less.
She, because she's such a sweet thing, puts up with it. Frankly, it infuriates her husband! 
Bob


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## Gansett

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When I'm at the store, I freely give advice to people on stuff purchased elsewhere whether they ask for advice or not. I do the same on forums too because I am special antagonist wizard extraordinaire, just ask me and I'll tell you. People just can't get enough of me.:eyes:


There, fixed it for you...


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## Old_Hobo

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## raleets

Jack,
I knew it wasn't a matter of 'if', just 'when'. :appl:
Bob


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## Florida RR

Ok that was funny. 

-Florida RR-


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## gunrunnerjohn

Jack has nothing constructive to say, so he resorts to distorting what others say. :stroke:


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## bruette

*MB Klein/Model Train Stuff is My Favorite LHS!*

My local train store, MB Klein/model train stuff has always been my favorite spot. 

When I was 11 years old I went into several other shops because they were much closer to me. I had to take 2 buses to get to MB Klein or like I usually did, take 1 and walk the rest of the way to save the transfer fee.

The shops close to me treated me like a pain in the butt. They were either rude or indifferent to me. I seldom had more then $5 to spend, usually less and I came at Christmas time. MB Klein always treated me good and they would find something to give me for free even if it was just a catalog or a sticker. I felt like they were happy to see me and to help me.

When I finally built a year round Lionel layout it was a no brainer for me on where I would spend my money. 

Most of the other shops had gone out of business and I say good riddance! On the other hand MB Klein had moved to a much larger location and their business continues to expand.

I agree its a tough market, but good customer service pays off. Low prices and internet store fronts are a must. MB Klein's store is only a fraction of their total sales, but thanks to their business practices I can still go to my favorite hobby shop.

Now that my health is not what it use to be I can just give them a call or write them an email if I have a question and can't make it to the store. 

I still enjoy going to the store when I am up to it. They pull out a stool for me and tell me all about some new things. They even give me a catalog or 2.


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## gunrunnerjohn

That's exactly my point. If the LHS treats you good, many times eventually you will reap the rewards. If they treat you like a PITA, they will also usually reap the rewards.


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## Ricky Tanner

IF I had a _decent_ train shop in my neck of the woods,I would support it-regardless of the prices. IF the the owner had a positive,friendly attitude. I travel all of the US and the world.I've been to a LOT of great shops,big and small. I always buy something. I do run across some shops where I've been ignored,I've been in shops where the owner/employee is grumpy and even one where I was insulted for the way I dressed(I wasn't shown a 3rd rail brass locomotive because I was told I couldn't afford it). There's a shop in a neighboring town,it's not a well stocked shop as far as trains but he has a lot of scenery material,paint and so on. The problem I have is that he's rude and hateful to anyone not in his little circle. I've tried to give the place some business and I always buy something but the guy is just not a friendly person.He's alienated or insulted everyone in our O gauge club.It's a wonder he stays in business. I could be a LHS's dream customer as I spend 20-30K a year on trains. Go figure. I wish I had a shop like Henning's around here.


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## bruette

Ricky Tanner said:


> IF I had a _decent_ train shop in my neck of the woods, I would support; I spend 20-30K a year on trains. Go figure. I wish I had a shop like Henning's around here.


If I open an internet store front , would you buy from me  ; I'm just joking. Forgive me for paraphrasing.



Ricky Tanner said:


> ..I wasn't shown a 3rd rail brass locomotive because I was told I couldn't afford it...


My wife so often told me not to dress like I am homeless, I finally got the message.


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## Ricky Tanner

bruette said:


> If I open an internet store front , would you buy from me  ; I'm just joking. Forgive me for paraphrasing.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife so often told me not to dress like I am homeless, I finally got the message.



Oh,I showed them how much I couldn't afford when I ended up buying THAT locomotive they were hesitant to show me AND two other 3rd rail steam locomotives they had and paid I cash for all three. I had been inspecting a pipeline project nearby and was dressed in proper outdoor attire (Overalls and workboots).


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's always a mistake to judge people by appearance, sometimes you can be unpleasantly surprised.


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## bruette

Ricky Tanner said:


> Oh,I showed them how much I couldn't afford when I ended up buying THAT locomotive they were hesitant to show me AND two other 3rd rail steam locomotives they had and paid I cash for all three. I had been inspecting a pipeline project nearby and was dressed in proper outdoor attire.


From my experience in sales you can never judge a persons intention to buy or the limits of their spending, It is a mistake to try. 

I also noticed a professional tradesmen is the best customer. A white color worker tends to be more frugal, that was my experience and not in any way scientific.


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## Gansett

If you saw my friend on the street you'd point him to a soup kitchen. Fact is he's now retired but still owns two very successful commercial fishing boats. He doesn't have more money than God but God sometimes comes to him for payday loans on occasion to carry him over... 

I just read something here that I'm going to put in practice immediately, I will now frequent only merchants who treat me right and never again buy anything at a merchant who treats me like a PITA. Who'da thunk? Sometimes the brilliance displayed in posts here is just dazzling. :eyes:


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## norgale

Reminds me of when I went shopping for a new truck back in 06. Early Saturday morning I pulled into the GMC dealership with my 86 GMC pickup and went looking around at the new trucks. The old GMC was kinda ragged out but it ran well and the AC worked so I drove it mostly for work. A sales man came out of the office and walked toward me while I leaned on the side of the truck waiting for him. He walked up, looked at me and the truck and kept on walking. Never even said good morning or anything. It took me thirty minutes to get down to Naples Dodge where I was greeted by a salesman,walked with my dog all around the new trucks and later into the office for the sale, dog and all
. I drove home in a new Dodge pickup and was home in time for lunch. Naples Dodge have sold me three vehicles since then and GMC has sold me squat.


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## raleets

That'll teach 'em!


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## Cycleops

JackC said:


> I just read something here that I'm going to put in practice immediately, I will now frequent only merchants who treat me right and never again buy anything at a merchant who treats me like a PITA. :


Even PITAs have money to spend sometimes!


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