# Lionel 2046 Hudson



## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

I just received my 1951 2046 Hudson today. It is in beautiful shape. It runs good and smokes too. The only thing I'm not sure about is that is seems to buzz pretty loud when it's sitting with power. I'm just wondering if this is normal since it is 60 years old. I'm hoping so because it appears to be a beautiful piece. Keep in mind the only thing I have to compare it to is the chinese made polar express engine I bought this year.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The buzz is from the reversing device, the e unit. The coil is on and pulling the pawl. The noise is dependent on the throttle position. It is normal.


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## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

After running for about 15 minutes it quit and hasn't really seemed to want to go after that. Any ideas why?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The drum in the e unit breaks at the end and doesn't turn. The short can fry your motor. Check that first.
The motor could use a cleaning or a rod nut on the side got loose and jammed a wheel. The wheels should turn freely if not check the rods. AFter running the heat may have spread too much oil on the armature. Old and gooey doesn't help. If you remove any screws or nuts try not to break them since you have never taken the engine apart. The first time is always the worst. People like to overtighten.


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## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

I'm probably going to send this back to the seller as it was supposed to be in good to excellent condition and run good. I have not yet had the experience of working on one of these and don't really know how yet. I don't think I should have to be putting more money into it already as I just received it today. Honestly I don't even know how to take off the body or what the e-unit looks like.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

the e unit prob. just went bad. these are old engines. if it ran for you fine for a little while, i think it was in good working condition when you got it. 

just my opinion.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you want old trains you gotta dance too. They do need maintenance. These were at one time kids toys. The 2046 is a nice engine but not very rare or highly valuable. You can get something else to learn too. The 2026 is common enough. Too bad you don't have a mentor in the neighbor.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

T-Man said:


> If you want old trains you gotta dance too. They do need maintenance. These were at one time kids toys. The 2046 is a nice engine but not very rare or highly valuable. You can get something else to learn too. The 2026 is common enough. Too bad you don't have a mentor in the neighbor.



x2

there are enough people on this forum that know how to work on these , you should be able to get answers pretty quick...

if you use the search feature , there are all kinds of threads created here showing you how to replace/repair e units.


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## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

I understand that things can go wrong but for what I paid for this unit I don't really want to spend alot on repairs 15 minutes after I got it. I have no idea how to replace an e-unit and I really don't want to learn on a piece that cost me this much because it was in such good working order when it was sold.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

cjkoz1975 said:


> I understand that things can go wrong but for what I paid for this unit I don't really want to spend alot on repairs 15 minutes after I got it. I have no idea how to replace an e-unit and I really don't want to learn on a piece that cost me this much because it was in such good working order when it was sold.



well, good luck either way. i buy and sell on ebay all the time and all my items are as i describe them. with that being said, i wouldn't want to sell a perfectly good working item for someone to send it back to me and say it broke after they tried to run it.

email the guy and let us know what he says about it, if he is understanding and doesn't have a issue then go for it.


hope u get it worked out one way or another


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cjkoz1975 said:


> After running for about 15 minutes it quit and hasn't really seemed to want to go after that. Any ideas why?



was it running fine and just quit all of the sudden?
was it running for the 15 mins and gradually getting slower?

did you move the e unit lever back and forth a few times?

try cleaning the wheels and contact rollers?

oil the gears a little?

did you try another train?

check the power your getting to the rails?

All trains new or old will need some maintenance at some point.

we can show you how to pop the shell off to take a look, maybe it just needs a little cleaning. (maintenance)


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## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

I did talk to him and he is very understanding. He stated he would pay to have it shipped back to him but offered up some possible solutions. I tried it again and the same thing happened it worked and then slowed down and eventually came to a stop. He suggested that my transformer may not be strong enough to support the engine. All I have is the 80w transformer that came with the polar express set. I cleaned the track and it ran good for a few minutes then the green light on the transformer started blinking once the train stopped. It was hard to get it started also. If this is just a transformer issue than I can live with that as I don't really want to return the engine. Is that a possiblity?


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

is it the cw-80 transformer? i had the same issue with my old gray transformer. they are not made to run the older lionel engines. but i got a cw-80 and it fixed all my issues.


i'm thinking the motor armature/brushes need cleaned off and it needs oiled around the bushings.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've had about 95% success with eBay purchases. In about 5% of the cases, the purchase is far enough from the description and/or pictures that I go back to the seller for either an adjustment or a return. I've only had a couple of times where I had to go through eBay to get satisfaction. Most of the time, the seller is eager to make it right if you have a genuine complaint.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you need a better transformer. The blinking light is telling you it's in overload.

Consider the KW, I see them all the time on eBay. They're probably the best bang for the buck right now in transformers.

I did a search for "kw transformer" on eBay, and tons of them show up. You can use my favorite sniping tool and just put a conditional bid on a bunch of them, the bids are canceled when you win one. The tool is Gixen, very useful eBay tool.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think you need a better transformer. The blinking light is telling you it's in overload.
> 
> Consider the KW, I see them all the time on eBay. They're probably the best bang for the buck right now in transformers.
> 
> I did a search for "kw transformer" on eBay, and tons of them show up. You can use my favorite sniping tool and just put a conditional bid on a bunch of them, the bids are canceled when you win one. The tool is Gixen, very useful eBay tool.



if he has the cw80 i'm pretty sure it good enough to push that engine. it prob. needs cleaned.

i have a cw80 i run a 1055 texas special and lionel 2055 hudson with. however, the older gray model kept tripping out.










tender whistles too. transformer handles both.



please ignore the fact one of the wheels is off the track.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Did you try it with all the wires disconnected? Plug in the transformer, and turn up the throttle with all the wires disconnected, if you still get the flashing green light, then it is the transformer that is defective. 

If the green light stays steady, hook up the wires to the track without any trains on it, do you get the blinking? if you do, something is shorting in the track, if not, put just the locomotive on the track and try again. 

If the locomotive runs fine at this point, add one car at a time until you figure out just what is shorting out. 

It could be something besides the transformer, such as something metal shorting the tracks, a defective wire rubbing on the frame of the locomotive or a bad piece of track.

It might be the transformer is just telling you that something else is causing a short, and that there is actually nothing wrong with the transformer itself.

That is what the blinking light is for.


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## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

I have been running it with 5 polar express cars, all of which have lights in them. I just tried taking all of them and the tender off. The engine ran better but still seemed to bog down here and there. I already cleaned all the track tonight. It never stopped running this time. It slowed down but then she got up and went again. It slowed down from time to time. I think the transformer just isn't cutting it. Maybe it needs to be cleaned and lubed also. That will be my next little project as I'm a little afraid to take it apart. I really appreciate all the help you guys provide me. I'm really getting into this hobby and all the help I can the better. I'm hoping buy the end of the year to have the tmcc controller as I'm going to purchase a tmcc diesel locomotive as well. These things are amazing and I really want to expand but it is going to take some time as it is a bit pricey. I'm only a fireman so it will be a slow process. It is nice to know that I can come here to get help with any questions I have. Thank you again and I hope I get this completely figured out tomorrow. I am going to a model train show tomorrow to look for a transformer. Any suggestions one that will work for me for a long time?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Be mindful of switches ... especially switches on 027 track ... often these leading/trailing trucks on these older locos will bounce going through switch frogs, causing a center-to-outer rail short, causing the CW-80 light to blink.

As far as the loco and e-unit not working ... is it possible that a wire in the motor simply broke loose from a soldered connection?

Cheers,

TJ


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## cjkoz1975 (Dec 30, 2010)

I don't have any swithches yet. I don't think there are any loose wires as it did run better without the polar express cars on it. Hopefully by next year I will have this thing running top notch. I paid $150.00 for the loco and I have to say it looks great. Now all I have to do is get it running like it's supposed to. It smokes good to. Alot better than that polar express loco.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Be mindful of switches ... especially switches on 027 track ... often these leading/trailing trucks on these older locos will bounce going through switch frogs, causing a center-to-outer rail short, causing the CW-80 light to blink.
> 
> As far as the loco and e-unit not working ... is it possible that a wire in the motor simply broke loose from a soldered connection?
> 
> ...



i have a few of these locos with the older motors, it's kinda normal for them to slow down after they get warm. they need to be lubricated often. with that being said,


i may retract something i said previously earlier. t-man may need to jump in on this one. is a cw-80 enough to power that engine with several lighted passenger cars? i use mine with a whistling tender, old ac loco, and a lighted/smoking caboose.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

cj, is there any chance you can get us a video if it running with a digital camera, cell phone, or video camera?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Meet the twin*

The 2056 is a twin to the 2045.










Look at the red markThat is the drum if it is not square it is broken, causing the short to the transformer. 









These side rods will slip if lose and jam.









Link to the diagram
You do what you have to do.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think it might just need a little cleaning of the engine. (The motor itself)
A little lube does wonders.

T man did you take any pictures of how to remove the shell?

Run it without the cars for a while and vary the speed fast, slow, fast, slow.
Engines that have sat for a while, benefit from running them.

But it should be properly cleaned and lubed first.

The cw80 should power the engine. But a bigger transformer is nice too.
More watts- more power.

What year is the transformer? They had problems with some of the early cw80's.

Edit,
A copy and paste.
C;80 8;WATT TRANSFORMER Basic starter set or post-starter set power supply. Features two pairs of banana-plug connections for track power and accessory power. The accessory line output can be set to a variety of wattages – a particularly nice feature. The initial versions of this 80-watt transformer had a few quirks. A num- ber of early CW-80s were made with the power/ground posts wired back- ward. This isn’t a problem when you’re running a railroad with just the CW-80 providing the power, but operators ran into difficulties when trying to wire early production CW-80s in series with other transformers. The wiring issue was corrected, and newer CW- 80s are fairly trouble-free performers. These transformers are fan-cooled, a major plus, and 80 watts is a good size for a new railroader who needs a little extra capacity.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

sounds like the motor really needs lubed bad. don't get any oil on the armature/brushes just bushings


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd clean the armature of the motor and the pickups and wheels.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Actually, you can lube the commutator and brushes with 5W-20 motor oil. I have done it for 2 years and it works fine. However, if there is dirt in the commutator slots, the oil will loosen it up and you will have to remove the brush plate to clean it off. Oiling the commutator sounds like it won't work but I have done several engines, and it works fine. It does not interfere with the conduction of electricity. Don't forget that the electricity goes through the axle bearings, and they have oil on them, and also through the pickup rollers which are also oiled. The brushes are the cause of most of the motor friction. 
BB


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Actually, you can lube the commutator and brushes with 5W-20 motor oil. I have done it for 2 years and it works fine. However, if there is dirt in the commutator slots, the oil will loosen it up and you will have to remove the brush plate to clean it off. Oiling the commutator sounds like it won't work but I have done several engines, and it works fine. It does not interfere with the conduction of electricity. Don't forget that the electricity goes through the axle bearings, and they have oil on them, and also through the pickup rollers which are also oiled. The brushes are the cause of most of the motor friction.
> BB


i dunno bout ac, but in dc you won't dare get oil on the commutator in a ho scale engine, it will melt the springs and commutator.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't run HO, so I have no experience with it. I have run Lionel off and on for 60 years.
BB


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll have to try oiling the commutator on one of my cheap engines and see how it works.


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## Buster77 (Dec 7, 2010)

cjkoz1975 said:


> I don't have any swithches yet. I don't think there are any loose wires as it did run better without the polar express cars on it. Hopefully by next year I will have this thing running top notch. I paid $150.00 for the loco and I have to say it looks great. Now all I have to do is get it running like it's supposed to. It smokes good to. Alot better than that polar express loco.


Next year is a long way off, so it shouldn't take that long.....
With a little help from these guys, you'll have it running top notch in no time.
Good luck.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i don't think oiling the comutator is a good idea. even though people have gotten away with it, i know from experience adding oil between the brushes creates extra heat. i would not recomend this at all. ever.

the ac engines have larger wires, larger commutator and larger springs than n or ho stuff. therfor, yes i can see you getting away with it. but... i can guarentee you it adds extra heat to the armature and would never recommend this. please take my word for it.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I ran the engines for 1.5 years this way with no problem. If something is going to get hot, it is the oil, and there was never a sign of burnt oil on the commutator. Where did you get your data from that showed more heat being generated when the commutator was oiled? Some of the guys reported problems when 3 in 1 oil was used to oil the commutator, and I believe this might be true. I never tried 3 in 1 oil as I have had only bad experiences with it getting gummy. The problem of oil evaporating and leaving behind a gummy mess or leaving behind hardened grease is why I chose motor oil. It has a very low vapor pressure and doesn't evaporate very fast. I have one engine that was in a box for 45 years. It had been oiled with 20W-40 Valvoline back in the 60s, and I did not have to clean out a gummy mess when I put into operation recently. I have also discussed this with a friend who is an engineer and expert on lubricants, and he suggested a synthetic oil would be even better. He also suggested turbine oil, but the motor oil is easier to get. I was also discussing oiling the commutator with another engineer friend who also has a huge train collection. He related a story about brush wear problems in the early days of DC motors. He says the engineers discovered they should impregnate the brushes with oil. They heated up the brushes after the impregnation to drive off the lighter ends of the oil leaving the heavier oils behind. 
BB


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, if I still had the old Mercedes I used to have that had Bosch alternators, I would probably rig up some kind of oil wick to keep dirt off of the slip rings and keep things lubed. These alternators were terrible on brush wear. I learned to turn the slip rings with the edge of a large flat file to remove the grit that had impregnated itself into the slip rings. This grit would wear the brushes out in a hurry. This is a trick for another time.
BTW again, I have considered oiling the carbon rollers inside my KWs and ZWs to reduce the roller wear. Haven't done it yet, though.
BB


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

servoguy said:


> I ran the engines for 1.5 years this way with no problem. If something is going to get hot, it is the oil, and there was never a sign of burnt oil on the commutator. Where did you get your data from that showed more heat being generated when the commutator was oiled? Some of the guys reported problems when 3 in 1 oil was used to oil the commutator, and I believe this might be true. I never tried 3 in 1 oil as I have had only bad experiences with it getting gummy. The problem of oil evaporating and leaving behind a gummy mess or leaving behind hardened grease is why I chose motor oil. It has a very low vapor pressure and doesn't evaporate very fast. I have one engine that was in a box for 45 years. It had been oiled with 20W-40 Valvoline back in the 60s, and I did not have to clean out a gummy mess when I put into operation recently. I have also discussed this with a friend who is an engineer and expert on lubricants, and he suggested a synthetic oil would be even better. He also suggested turbine oil, but the motor oil is easier to get. I was also discussing oiling the commutator with another engineer friend who also has a huge train collection. He related a story about brush wear problems in the early days of DC motors. He says the engineers discovered they should impregnate the brushes with oil. They heated up the brushes after the impregnation to drive off the lighter ends of the oil leaving the heavier oils behind.
> BB



my data comes from personal experience throughout the years burning up prob. lots and lots of motors getting oil on the commutator. i will admit, these were all dc locos mostly ho and n scale. however, if the oil is going to cause heat and burn those up i imagine it will cause heat on 027 as well. 

if you have a cheap dc loco you don't care to burn up, try oiling the commutator and get back to me i will bet my life it will burn the loco up. now you can argue with me on the differences between ho and 027 all you want. but if it is causing heat to burn up a ho loco i'm sure it's causing heat on the ac locos as well. dc locos also slow down when the commutator gets oiled, that's a sign they are about to burn up.


last thing i will add to this is, i never used automotive oil. mostly 3 in 1 OR MODEL TRAIN OIL. made for lubricating them. i had the same outcome with both. you have to understand, a ac loco has much larger commutator ,much larger wire, much larger brushes and larger springs, it may not effect them as quick or as bad.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

What kind of oil were you using? It probably makes a big difference. There are some odds that motor oil has something in it to make in conductive. Other oils like 3 in 1 wouldn't have this additive. I do have some HO stuff but no track but it shouldn't be difficult to find some track for little or nothing. When I get a chance I will try it.
BB


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

servoguy said:


> What kind of oil were you using? It probably makes a big difference. There are some odds that motor oil has something in it to make in conductive. Other oils like 3 in 1 wouldn't have this additive. I do have some HO stuff but no track but it shouldn't be difficult to find some track for little or nothing. When I get a chance I will try it.
> BB




you don't need track, get a dc transformer, wire 2 wires to the transformer directly to the motor, with it running, oil the brushes/springs/commutator you will hear it slow then watch it smoke.

i edited the last post showing what kinda oil i used, model train oil and 3 in 1 oil both.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You still haven't told me what kind of oil you were using. It makes a difference.
BB


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i posted it twice, hobby store model train oil. i don't know what kind, just stuff they sold for model trains and 3 in 1 oil. i had the same outcome with both.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a DC power supply that should have enough current capacity to drive a motor. I will try to find time to do it soon.
BB


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

servoguy said:


> I have a DC power supply that should have enough current capacity to drive a motor. I will try to find time to do it soon.
> BB



just about anything that provides dc power will work. i mess with rc cars as well, i at one point had created a case that a n scale loco came in. it would hold a 7.2 volt battery pack for rc car. i drilled a hole in the case, put a push button switch in it, put a charge jack and wire that would plug straight into it. i also ran 2 wires with plugs that would plug into the track out of it. i used to bring it with me everywhere to run dc locos, just charge the battery when it went dead. i couldn't regulate the speed though : /


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Sorry I missed your statement about using oil purchased in a hobby shop. I think the results you got were predictable as the oils are much lighter than motor oil, and I am almost sure the motor oil has something in it to make it conductive. I will try to get more data on this and post it.
BB


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Sorry I missed your statement about using oil purchased in a hobby shop. I think the results you got were predictable as the oils are much lighter than motor oil, and I am almost sure the motor oil has something in it to make it conductive. I will try to get more data on this and post it.
> BB



anything conductive is going to cause issues. i think you ment the car motor oil you use is not conductive. i've never used motor oil, so i wouldn't know.


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