# engine randomly stops



## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

I apologize if this question has been covered before. I've googled it several times without luck. The few suggestions that I've found, I've tried, but no luck yet. Maybe I'm using the wrong keywords.

Anyhow, I have an old Lionel 675 that I've wanted to get up and running. I've oiled all of the wheels on the different cars, had the transformer fixed, and had the engine greased and cleaned up inside by a train hobby shop. I took all of the old track (original O, not fastrack) and cleaned the rust off with a power drill and a wire brush attachment. I crimped down the track around the pins wherever it seemed needed and tried to push the rails together as close as possible, although there are small gaps here and there. I layed the track down over a gravel road bed that I made on a 4x6 board and screwed it into the board; I adjusted the screws to make it as level as possible. It's just a big oval, with two switches and a smaller circle inside; the layout is 3.5 x 5. 

My problem is that the train stops pretty frequently. It runs great when it's running, but it just keeps stopping after two or three laps. Sometimes at the same point, and I'll try replacing the track. Sometime at random points. Where it stops seems to change with how many cars are attached. So I'm constantly going to the transformer to press the switch and start it back up again. I'd really like to just let it run, and have it go without stopping. I've thought about just replacing all of the old track with new, but I know people sell and buy old track and I see a lot of suggestions for cleaning up old track, so I'm assuming it can be used without being so much of a problem; I'd like to use what I've got if I can. I was just hoping that someone might be willing to offer some suggestions for why this might be occurring, some troubleshooting tips for how to narrow down the problem and maybe fix it?

Thanx! - scott


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Scott,

Are you sure that the problem lies with conductivity of the track itself, rather than a problem with the e-unit (auto reverse switch) within the loco? What happens when you cycle the direction to forward, then move the e-unit lever on the top of the loco over to the "e-unit off" position? Does the loco still stop randomly at different places on the track?

How about the wire leads from the transformer to the track? Sound? What about the connection to the track at the LockOn clip (or equivalent)?

TJ


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

These are great ideas, thx! I will check them out and post back


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

dipdog said:


> These are great ideas, thx! I will check them out and post back


Check the paper insulators under the center rail, if one is bad it will do that.

The same spot? Are you sure you did not put a plastic pin instead of a metal pin in? 

Try running another wire connection to that spot with another lockon, it all depends on how big your layout is you might need to put some more power to the rail.

Turn the Loco over and examine the gears for foreign objects, maybe you picked up something. Look for missing teeth on the gears as long as your looking.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Make sure the wheels on the loco turn easily. If there is any binding, something is wrong. If you put the loco on the track and push it without putting downward pressure on it, the wheels should turn. If they don't, the lube job was not good.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If screws are loose on the eccentric rod ( center wheel)it will jamb erratically.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

T, I think this is a turbine. It doesn't have valve gear, although some of them had a small rod off the first driver which is an automatic oiler in the real loco.


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

I had been assuming all along that the problem was with the track, so I'm curious to see what comes of this. When I had the engine serviced, they mentioned that the e-unit switch was very loose. I thought they said that it couldn't be easily fixed, but when I had the smoke unit replaced about a week or two later, the e-unit switch seemed much tighter when I got it back (?). So, not sure if that's related to the problem or not. I'm going to try playing with it tonight
The track is just a simple oval with two switches and a circle inside, only 3' x 5.5' altogether. However, it does slow down a lot when it comes to the turn that's on the opposite side of the lock-on. Does that seem normal? I didn't expect it to lose so much current on such a small layout. And that is one of the places where it frequently stops. It stops randomly in other places too, some closer to the lock-on, but it stops pretty consistently at that spot, even when it's going at a pretty good speed
The only plastic pins are the two pins on each switch. The engine always stopped on one of the switches, so I replaced it. The other original switch just burned out (it kept drifting into the wrong position, then humming, then smoking). I was going to replace it too, but maybe there's something else going on?
By bad insulation, did you mean missing insulation? Or can a piece of insulation that's in place on the center tie go bad? If so, how could you tell?
I'll also check out the engine wheels tonight, although I believe they're pretty smooth. Thank again for all the advice!


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

You know, I should mention too, it's all original pins too. And I didn't sand down the pins. Can a rusted pin on a center track be bad? And do the ties need to be close enough to be touching, or can you have small gaps in between two connected ties (bridged by the pin of course)


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You should clean any surface rust on the tops of the rails and the connecting pins with a ScotchBrite pad. Pin connections should be snug. You can bend the center pin and one outer pin in opposing directions a bit ... that will help induce friction for a better electrical joint.

Track to track connection don't need to be fully "pulled together", as long as the pins are tight. No need to have cross ties touch.

The insulation in question is the little piece of cardboard that isolates the center rail from each crosstie. This needs to be intact at all ties, making sure that there's no flow of electricity between the center and ties / outer rails (other than through the loco motor, itself).

If your e-unit switch (lever, really) is loose, you can make a thin shim to slide under its rivet. See here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=57260&postcount=18

I don't think you answered my prior question ... Does the loco still stop randomly when the e-unit lever is disengaged? I.e., when the e-unit is toggled to be non-functioning, and the loco left in a forward-only condition?

TJ


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

I didn't get a chance last nite. I'm going to check tonite, and will post back. Thx


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The pins need to be clean. As TJ said, you can clean them with a Scotchbrite pad, or you can clean them with a wire wheel. Then I recommend that you bend one of the outer rails to the left where the pin is installed, and the center rail to the right where the pin is installed. Bend the rail so the pin is displaced about half of the diameter of the pin. When you connect two track sections together, the offset of the pins will make a good tight connection. And, the track sections will go together easily, and also come apart easily, and you won't have to bend the track again. Grab the rail with a pair of pliers where the pin is installed when you bend it.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

My mistake. It is not a turbine (671) but a 2-6-2 steamer. 

Dog, if you did not clean all the rust off of the pins of the track, there will not be a good connection between track sections. You can clean the pins with a Scotchbrite pad or a wire wheel.


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Okay. I got stuck late at work, so may be even a few days before I can try all these suggestions out, but I will post as soon as I do. Thanks again for all your help!


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

I tried the easiest suggestion first, flipped the e-unit switch off, and it kept going and going and going. Wow! That seriously just saved me some sanity. Never would have guessed that it could be something other than the tracks. I was just about to disassemble the entire thing.. again!

Anyhow, thanks again for everyone's help; I really appreciate it. Hopefully this thread might help someone else in the future. 

Just one other question. Could you explain to me what this means about the e-unit? Does it sound like a recognizable problem, anything easy to fix or have fixed?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It sounds like your track is dirty and the power to the E unit is therefore somewhat intermittant. The E units are very quick to respond to lack of power and will sequence from forward to neutral. Clean the track with a Scotchbrite pad and see how it works after that. With the E unit locked in forward, the loco will coast over the dirty places on the track. DO NOT USE STEEL WOOL OR SANDPAPER to clean anything around a train.


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Oh, darn. I was hoping I was off the hook with the track  Okay, I'll give it a shot. I feel a little skeptical though, cause I really went over the track pretty thoroughly with the power drill an wire brush, which ought to be more abrasive than the pad. I thought I read once that if your track isn't perfectly smooth and electro-plated like new, that the small pits and imperfections in the track can pick up dirt and grime pretty easily and require frequent cleaning. Could that be what I'm looking at? Is this a typical problem with the e-unit on old track?


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Eh, let me say that differently, cause I don't know anything about this. What will the scotchbrite do that the wire brush didn't? Or, did I make a mistake using the wire brush in the first place? Can that scratch up the track too much? It was just really rusted up and dirty, so i figured that was the easiest way to get the job done.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I use a lot of old track. I clean the tops of the rails with a wire brush or a ScotchBrite pad. If the rail is shiny, it should work OK.

I just checked pictures of 675 locos on eBay. They have roller pickups. I was concerned that you might have sliding pickups on your loco. The sliding pickups are sometimes more of a problem than the rollers. Are the rollers clean? Are the screws that hold the eccentric cranks on the 2nd driver tight?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I make sure the rollers are very clean, and I also use DeoxIT D5 to improve the contact between the roller and it's axle. I fixed two picky locomotives with that treatment.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When the loco stops, what do you do to get it running again?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

If it runs fine with the e-unit disengaged, I'd not be looking at the track at this point.

I suspect that the problems lies with one (or more) of the little contact fingers in the e-unit ... it sounds like one (or more) is barely making contact with the drum, and that a bumpy ride (around the track) might be enough to flex it (or the drum) just enough to loose electrical contact. Remember that one full-turn of the drum has 2 forward positions, and 2 reverse positions. So, the problem with the fingers could be occuring on one of the forward positions, but not the other. Hence, Scott found one of the settings (the good one) where the loco kept running and running with the e-unit disengaged.

Scott, per Post 10, make sure that the e-unit toggle lever is reasonably tight. When it's "engaged", it should make good elec contact with the metal nub on the top fiber plate.

After that, can you run the motor with the loco shell removed? If so, when the motor stalls, use a toothpick to poke each of the tiny e-unit contact fingers. You might find that pushing one of them in a tiny fraction is just enough to make proper elec contact with the e-unit drum. If so, then that contact finger needs to be bent (flexed) a small bit to induce more pressure/spring against the drum.

It might sound a bit scary, but take a look at this two-part video when you have time ... it'll help calm the mysteries of e-units quite a bit ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6131

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dipdog,

I was typing the post above yesterday when the forum went down. I'm simply now giving the thread here a "bump", just in case you missed the dialog from yesterday.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, if dipdog will answer my question, we will have a good clue as to what is wrong. I think that dirty track or some intermittent connection to the E unit. As you know, the E units will respond rather quickly to loss of power. If he would tell us that cycling the E unit one time puts the loco in reverse, we could conclude that the E unit had lost power.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Agreed :thumbsup:


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Sorry 'bout the delay. Between work and the kids, any me-time comes in starts and fits nowadays. 
To answer post 10, there's a switch on my transformer. If I press it up, it controls the whistle. If I press it down, it controls the e-unit. When it's going forward, if I press down once it goes into neutral, then reverse, then neutral again, then forward. When it stalls, I usually press the switch on the transformer (either once or twice), and it goes into reverse. Then I press it again a couple times, and it goes into neutral and back into forward. 
When I took the engine in for servicing, it seemed like the e-unit switch was looser when it came back. I mentioned this to the shop, and they said that it was loose when I dropped it off. They seemed to indicate that this might be a problem and that it wouldn't be any easy repair. Then, after I dropped it off to have the smoke element replaced, it seemed much tighter when I got it back. 
Anyhow, don't know if any of this info is significant? I haven't opened up the engine by myself before, but Ill watch the video and give it a shot
Thanks again for all your help and, again sorry for the delay


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Oh, by the way. When you say the toggle switch on the engine should make "good elec contact with the metal nub on the top fiber plate"..... Is that something I can see w/o the cover taken off? Ie. are the metal nub and the fiber plate on the inside or the outside of the engine?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Inside the engine. You need to take the shell off. The e-unit lever that sticks out of the top of the engine is essentially an L-shaped metal bar. The "knuckle" of the L is on a rivetted pivot. When you rotate the top (exposed) part of the L, the lower part of the L pivots to either touch or not touch a small electrical contact point that's on a fiber plate on the top/back of the e-unit (inside the loco shell).

Sometimes, the rivet loosens up ... to the point where when you rotate the E-unit lever (the L-shaped bar) into an "engaged" postion, there's not enough tension (due to the loose rivet) to hold the bottom part of the L into proper electrical contact (touching firmly) with the mating point on the fiber plate.

If your careful, you can fabricate and slide a thin shim (out of thin plastic, perhaps) underneath the serrated washer at the rivet. This will "tighten the gap", so to speak, and help to eliminate the loose fit of the rivet and e-unit "L" lever.

TJ


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Ok, I'm going to give it a shot. May be a few days tho. Wife's sick, kids teething  
I'll post back as soon as I do


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The lever gets loose because the circuit board it is mounted on bends over time. I have fixed several by rotating the lever to a position where I could get a hold of the contact end of the lever with pliers. I then bend the end a little so it contacts the hollow rivet that it makes contact with more tension. You do not need to remove the E unit in most cases to make this repair. When you bend it, put your thumb over the rivet that the lever pivots and put pressure on the arm so you don't pull the rivet apart. I have fixed several and not had a rivet come apart. You don't need to bend the rivet very much to accomplish this repair. Very quick and easy.


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

I've got a couple quick questions, if I can.

Servoguy mentioned cleaning the rollers. What's the best way to do that? Also, you said to check if "the screws that hold the eccentric cranks on the 2nd driver are tight?". What is that/those?

Gunrunnerjohn suggested Deoxit d5. I was just wondering if there any sprays that might be a little less expensive. (don't want to be cheap and wouldn't mind spending the money for it, but would hate to have it wasted if that doesn't turn out to be a/the problem)

Do I have to disassemble the e-unit to get at the contact fingers? That's probably going to be beyond my comfort range (already getting nervous with all the brittle old wires!), and I might just turn it back into the shop for that.

Now, as I'm writing this, I'm reading servoguy's last comment, and that's actually what I was just getting ready to say. The rivet seems relatively tight, there is some tension... not totally loose. But as it passes over the contact, there is a bit of a separation, as though either the board or the level are a little bent/warped at the end. The lever's also fairly corroded; don't know if that makes a difference? 

Anyhow, I was going to ask if I could try putting a shim under the fiber board, as opposed to under the rivet (I think it would be easier, and maybe more practical since it seems to be tight at the center, but not laying flat at the end of the lever). However, I think I'll try bending the lever first. But I want to make sure I understand correctly. The lever seems like pretty stiff metal. I'm a little worried about putting too much pressure on the rivet. You're talking about moving the small arm of the e-unit lever past the fiber board, grabbing the arm and the metal frame that the fiber boards attached to in a pair of pliers and applying pressure until the small arm bends a little. Is that correct?

I took a pretty decent close-up photo of the gap between the arm and the contact. I'd attach it, but I've never quite figured out how to link photos to these forums


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

By the way, when I say that either the lever or the board is a little bent, I mean very very little. I can't really see it just looking at it. But when I put the camera lens on macro and used the flash, it was a little easier to see a bit of a gap


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The center philips screw needs to be tight. The Position is critical so It will not jamb. If lose it will. To clean the drum a q tip will work or even an eraser. 

Pictures will help. Set up a photobucket if you have a problem. Something we can view.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If it has not been run a lot, stopping is normal. The electrical conections are not clean, which is every point from the track through the whole motor.


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

If this worked, this is a photo of what looks like a gap between the e-unit arm and the contact. Doesn't look this dramatic by eyeball. But, appears to be a gap when I use the macro lens and flash on camera. Is this the kind of loose connection that you're talking about?


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Actually, guess it doesn't look "dramatic" in the photo either  but it does look like a bit of a gap?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Dog, move the lever so you can see the end where it contacts the hollow rivet. Make sure both the rivet and lever are clean. You could clean them with a ScotchBrite pad or wire wheel on a Dremel tool. The lever looks very dirty.

To test the connection between the lever and the hollow rivet, see if the lever will move back and forth a little when it is in contact with the hollow rivet. If it moves, then the connection is loose and the lever needs to be shimmed or bent.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

As servoguy suggests, use a wirebrush wheel to clean both the lever and contact, not forgetting to clean the backside of the lever that makes contact with the hollow rivet. Also, unscrew the e-unit from the frame (1 screw) and make sure there is no rust or corrosion where the e-unit gets screwed to the frame. 
As long as the lever makes a good connection with the contact, you are OK. You should feel the lever "snap" into place when moved over the contact. If you do not feel resistance when moving the lever over the contact, then it is too loose.

Larry


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

I'll take a shot at cleaning it. Looks like its going to be a challenge to get anything into that small space (ie under the lever arm). I was wondering if I could work a little piece of sandpaper under there?
The rivet is tight enough that I don't think the lever would move by itself in any position. I guess my concern, from the photo, was if the rounded part of the lever arm needs to be seated correctly over the hollow contact? In the photo, it looks like they are angling away from each other, so that only one end of the arm is touching the contact? I was wondering if that would be enough of a problem to cause the loss of electrical contact. 
When I move the lever from e-unit off to e-unit on, I don't feel the "snap". If I continue to move the arm past that point, then I feel the snap. I feel the snap as I push it back towards the contact, but I don't feel the snap if I move it off the contact back towards e-unit off. If that makes sense.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

A piece of fine sandpaper slipped under the lever will work. Move the lever back and forth on the sandpaper to clean it. Clean the rivet contact and the rest of the e-unit with the wire brush wheel. Make sure to clean everything of any residue when you are done. As long as the lever makes good physical and electrical contact with the rivet contact, the e-unit will function properly.

Larry


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I wouldn't use sandpaper. The lever is plated, and you will remove the plating. Move the lever until the contact is clear of the fiber plate it is mounted on. Then you can easily clean it and the hollow rivet. If this job takes you more than 5 minutes, you are doggin' it (pun intended).


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You will have to remove the E unit from the motor frame to do this.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

dipdog said:


> However, I think I'll try bending the lever first. But I want to make sure I understand correctly. The lever seems like pretty stiff metal. I'm a little worried about putting too much pressure on the rivet. You're talking about moving the small arm of the e-unit lever past the fiber board, grabbing the arm and the metal frame that the fiber boards attached to in a pair of pliers and applying pressure until the small arm bends a little. Is that correct?


Essentially ... YES.

(This has been discussed indirectly in the posts just above, but I wanted to answer your question explicitly.)

Be careful about not applying any undue pressure on the fiber board. They are relatively brittle, and can snap with a misplaced bump.

Dog, did you get a chance to view the e-unit service videos per link in post 22?

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Put your thumb on the pivot for the lever and keep pressure on it. When you bend the arm, put torque on the pliers not a linear force. That will minimize the force on the insulator board and the lever pivot.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the rounded contact that moves to enable/disable the e-Unit isn't tight against the fixed contact, that's what Bruce is suggesting you fix. Holding the rivet, try to bend the end of the lever so that it is tight against that contact when the e-Unit is switched on.

The DeoxIT D5 I mentioned is best for stuff like the axles of the pickups, it's hard to get inside those and clean them with conventional methods.


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

ok, will do. I didn't realize that the e-unit would be unattached during the cleaning, but I can see where that would make it much easier. I did watch the videos, but had hoped not to get that far into it. Mostly just nervous about pulling one of the wires loose or messing up the copper coil. If it's just one screw attaching it though, hopefully won't be too difficult. And, given what you said about the fiber board becoming brittle, I can see where it would be better to bend the lever arm as opposed to putting a wedge under the fiber board. Probably be a few days, but I'll post when finished. Thanks again for everything!


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## dipdog (Jan 8, 2012)

Worked like a charm!

Gotta admit, I didn't enjoy it  Still made me nervous. I've taken apart a couple of cars and the wiring just fell apart. I expected that to happen in the engine too, but it didn't. It was actually pretty sturdy. I did remove the e-unit, although for what little I did it probably wasn't necessary. I moved the short arm of the lever until it was perpendicular to the long end of the fiber board. That's the position where most of the arm is exposed. I pulled some scotchbrite pad underneath and rubbed back and forth until it was clean. And then I put the pliers around the top of the short arm and the inside of the e-unit frame, and squeezed. In that position, it bent into shape pretty easily. I think Servoguys earlier comment is what best matched my situation. The lever arm was straight, but the fiber board had warped away from it a little. So I bent the arm back into contact with the fiber board.

Anyhow, running great now. Engine seems to be more responsive to e-unit switch on the transformer now too. Thanks again for all the help! You guys were great.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

HMMMMM you used pliers? The whole secret of the e unit is to spread the walls out from that large center pin, not bend them. It is much easier than bending. Then it snaps back together.

You tube time.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

T, go back and read the posts. We are not taking the E unit apart. We are fixing the switch lever.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

At least he didn't have to pull the coil off! He will be ready to rebuild now

My definition of loose is the handle/lever moves when you take a turn. Also it will not stay on the rivet when placed.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Dipdog,

Very happy to hear the news! You'll be performing e-unit surgery routinely in no time! Now that you have your Surgeon's Certificate, and all that!

Well done,

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

This problem of the circuit board bending is very common. I have fixed 3 or 4 locos.


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