# Help Identifying Chassis



## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

I need an expert to chime in and tell me what body this chassis may potentially belong to:


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## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

I have no idea, but it looks like a nice chassis. I'm guessing based on it's size and vintage, it's 1 gauge, or perhaps a larger gauge (2,3,4 or 5). Or it's perhaps an old Lionel "Standard" gauge chassis, which everyone else (Bing, Ives, American Flyer, Dorfan and Boucher) called it "wide" gauge. 

To help identify it, what is the actual gauge of those wheels? Do you have any track for it? 

To help you identify it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_transport_modelling_scale_standards


No 1 gauge was standardised, according to Model Railways and Locomotive magazine of August 1909 at 1.75 in (44.45 mm). The distance between the wheel tyres was set at 1 17⁄32 in (38.894 mm) and between the centre of the track 48 mm (no inch equivalent suggesting it was metric users requirement only). The wheel width was set at 19⁄64 in (7.541 mm).
(This is almost the exact same as the modern LGB G scale/gauge track of 45mm).

2 gauge (also called II gauge) is a model railway gauge originally 64 mm (2 1⁄2 in),[1] then standardised in 1909 at 2 in (50.8 mm), a 20% reduction and a change in definition: from mm to inch.

Wide gauge has a track gauge of 2 1⁄8 in (53.975 mm). Called Standard Gauge by Lionel, who trademarked the name. Other manufacturers used the same gauge and called it Wide Gauge.

Number 3 has a gauge track of 63.5 mm wide. 

Lionel also for a few years, made some trains in a 2 7/8 inch gauge line, starting in 1900 or 1901 and ending in 1905 or 1906. That is very rare now to find.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

I just measured with my digital calipers, and I am getting 48mm between the insides of the wheels, and roughly 53mm from outside edge of wheel lip to wheel lip.


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## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

Since you are getting roughly 53mm from outside edge of wheel lip to wheel lip (meaning the inside edge of the flange to flange), then your chassis was designed for what Lionel called "Standard" gauge, and it's competitors called "Wide" gauge because of the copyrighted name. 

Standard gauge is measured as 2-1/8 inch (53.975 mm) gauge between the two outside rails. 

Four American competitors adopted Lionel's gauge: Ives in 1921, Boucher in 1922, Dorfan in 1924, and American Flyer in 1925. According to wikepedia, Lionel began Standard Gauge production in 1906 or 1907, and continued making it until about 1940. 

There were a few companies after 1940 that made reproductions of the old trains, including McCoy Manufacturing in the 1950's, Williams Electric Trains starting in the 1970's, and nowadays it's produced and marketed by MTH Electric Trains. 

For more information about Standard gauge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Gauge_%28toy_trains%29

Howard


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow.

I believe that may very well be off of an early (1910's, early 1920's) Lionel steam engine ... likely a type 5, type 6, type 7, or type 51.

The wheel spokes and nearly-touching wheel flanges are the tell-tale indication.

Some of those locos are very rare. You should consider getting in touch with TCA about this.

If you can get your hands on a copy of The Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900 - 1942, look at the loco pics on pages 27 thru 31.

TJ

PS -- you have the "thick rimmed" drive wheels, as opposed to some other Lionel motors that had thinned rimmed drive wheels. Could help in narrowing down the I.D.


Does it run? Be gentle with any investigation. Looks like a simple manual reversing switch on the frame, huh?


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

Great information, guys. I don't know if it runs, but I can certainly put it on the track and find out. The wheels spin very freely. I sent the TCA an email and attached the pictures. Hopefully, they will be able to get back to me about something.

Yes, it is a simple reversing switch on the frame, there is no roller pick-up; only a sled, and it only has one drive gear.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's a Lionel 5 loco ... Perhaps via your motor, as noted ...










TJ


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

Wow, that sure looks damn close to what I have.

I have been having a hard time finding much of anything on the 1910s Lionel stuff online. I did find one of those auction sites an it had some pretty good pictures of the 5 Model. This underside shot shows some differences from mine, but not much.










It is one of those "Sign up to see the full listing" sites, so I don't know what year that locomotive is. There could have been design changes between the years to account for the differences.

I also checked and it does not run. Looking at it a little more closely, it looks like there is nothing connecting the pickup to the pickup wire, so that would pose as a problem. The pickup connection actually looks like it has some knob and tube design going on.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

I spoke too soon on not finding anything. This is a very informative read:

http://www.easterntca.org/greenberg4.pdf


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Go to www.liveauctoineers.com

Search for "Lionel 5", "Lionel 6", "Lionel 7", "Lionel 51" ... but click on the grey box near the top to show SOLD items. Scroll down on each item to see photos.

If you hunt, you may narrow the i.d. match.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Initially, I wasn't thinking an electric-style loco ... the connecting rods threw me. However, the early Lionel 53 electric loco had connecting rods, and perhaps others, too. I wouldn't rule those out just yet.

See Olsens ... http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/001214.pdf

TJ


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

Possibly the No. 38, as well. However, this picture doesn't have the extra cross braces that mine has:


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

This picture of the 53 doesn't, either.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

This No. 5 loco, however, does appear to have those braces:










Again, I don't know if those braces were added over time for the later models or not.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

There is a good chance that it a #6, as a picture from "Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942" by David Doyle show a #6 version/type VIII, that looks very close to your photo.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks like one of the wheels has been JB welded or something to hold it on?









Where did you find it?
What will you do with it?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thuggs,

The brackets on the pictured #5 face toward the reverse switch, whereas on yours, they face away. Not sure if that's significant.

TJ


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

big ed said:


> Looks like one of the wheels has been JB welded or something to hold it on?
> 
> View attachment 39737
> 
> ...


I don't think one has been JB Welded or anything like that. I'd have to look more closely, but everything seems solid. 
It was with my grandfather's stuff like the 400E, Hellgate, and the No. 8 I am refurbishing. 



tjcruiser said:


> Thuggs,
> 
> The brackets on the pictured #5 face toward the reverse switch, whereas on yours, they face away. Not sure if that's significant.
> 
> TJ


Good catch. Again, I don't know if stuff was added later on or how strict the quality control was back then.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

Just as an update, this is the response I received from TCA:



> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Your chassis is a circa 1918 early Lionel motor. The design of this motor changed over the years as the company attempted to improve it. I do have more information on it but would have to charge to send it in the mail.
> 
> ...


In other news, the No. 8 I just refurbished is running like a champ. The wheels need to be straightened a bit on the axles, but she runs.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

Looks like it is a bit older, and good call on the electric loco, TJ.



> According to the 2014 Greenberg’s Guide to Lionel Trains , Standard & 2 7/8 “ Gauge it is a Type 2 motor which was used in medium size, early electric locomotives: Nos. 1911, 38, 50 and 62. According to this book it was introduced in 1910 and used until 1915 rather than 1918 as I was told.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

MuhThugga said:


> ... running like a champ.


Yeehaaa!!!!


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