# Shelf train build log



## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

Hey guys, 
I am going to start a thread here to post progress and pictures and such on this project and hopefully get some good feedback along the way. 
The goal is this:

- Shelf layout across the top of the windows and doors.
- Go through the walls to span across 3 bedrooms and through the closets.
- Turnouts set up so the train can be routed through just son's room, son's and sister's room, or all three rooms including mine.
- Parallel siding section for switching between 2 trains.
- Hopefully automate the train switch every loop using some relays and reed switches. (My other thread on auto-train switching) 
- House all the controls in a nice in-wall mounted box.

Thus far, I have collected all the track, both trains, and am currently staining shelves and should start installation very soon. I am using MTH Realtrax track and turnouts.

I am pretty much a total newbie to O scale (and model trains in general). So I am learning a lot as I go. Feel free to point out obvious things that may not be so obvious to me. 

Thanks.
Rob


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## rob_campbell[email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

OK, so here is the starting point. This is the layout I have generated using the MTH track layout software I got with my set.

The truss bridge shown is right next to my son's pillow as he is up on a bunk bed. This should keep him from accidentally knocking the train off track when he's up there.










Let me know what you think. Do you think I need to have a straight section between the two turnouts butting each other at the siding entrance, or do these do a good enough job of keeping the train on track?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You have me thinking about block control and running two trains.
You have plenty to do now but you could run them both without DCC.
With magnets and reed switches Each train would be a left magnet or a right. You can control the switches with two reeds. One train could circle the bedroom and the other, the outer loop of the two other rooms.The outer loop only enters at two switches so a block delay would be needed there to stop the inner train. Just a thought. I am still trying to make a circle collision proof.

Not to mess with your plans but do you have room to make two separate loops? Only two walls and a corner would have to be expanded. One wall already has two tracks for a crossover if wanted.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Excellent idea. Postings like yours are a great deal of help to anyone starting off. If I can make a request, include discussion of any mistakes you make. For the person coming behind you, it could spare him/her doing the same if you explain what you did wrong and why it was wrong.
Thanks!


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

T-Man said:


> You have me thinking about block control and running two trains.
> You have plenty to do now but you could run them both without DCC.
> With magnets and reed switches Each train would be a left magnet or a right. You can control the switches with two reeds. One train could circle the bedroom and the other, the outer loop of the two other rooms.The outer loop only enters at two switches so a block delay would be needed there to stop the inner train. Just a thought. I am still trying to make a circle collision proof.
> 
> Not to mess with your plans but do you have room to make two separate loops? Only two walls and a corner would have to be expanded. One wall already has two tracks for a crossover if wanted.


Not sure I can see what you are thinking...do you mean adding an extra section of track on the 4th wall of the lower bedroom in the pic? If you could mark up the picture to indicate what you mean that would be great. I am still open to any ideas. Thanks!


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

Reckers said:


> Excellent idea. Postings like yours are a great deal of help to anyone starting off. If I can make a request, include discussion of any mistakes you make. For the person coming behind you, it could spare him/her doing the same if you explain what you did wrong and why it was wrong.
> Thanks!


I'd like to post my mistakes for others, but since I have everything thought out in advance, everything will go exactly as planned. :laugh: Yah, sure, that's the way it will go.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Tman brings very interesting idea. from what you wrote it seems like you will be pre selecting a "current route" for a train and then running it.

suggested is automated route control. assuming clockwise running, train A leaves the station and continues straight into right top room, completes the circle and stops in his siding. train B leaves the station and taking a diverging route and instead going through the bottom room.

As Tman suggests train detection for route control can be accomplished with pair of reed switches (for every turnout, facing AND trailing) positioned on sides of track and each train having the magnet mounted on different side tripping corresponding switch.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

tankist said:


> Tman brings very interesting idea. from what you wrote it seems like you will be pre selecting a "current route" for a train and then running it.
> 
> suggested is automated route control. assuming clockwise running, train A leaves the station and continues straight into right top room, completes the circle and stops in his siding. train B leaves the station and taking a diverging route and instead going through the bottom room.
> 
> As Tman suggests train detection for route control can be accomplished with pair of reed switches (for every turnout, facing AND trailing) positioned on sides of track and each train having the magnet mounted on different side tripping corresponding switch.



These are some interesting ideas. I will have to do some more thinking on this. I am still trying to understand how this block control / train detection works that you are talking about. Are you envisioning using this to have both trains out on the track at one time ever? 

As far as my current plan, yes I was planning on setting a static "current" route, mainly to be able to bypass the little one's room for nap times, etc, and still allow the boy to run the train through his room. (Son's room is the middle one, daughter's is the one on the right, ours is the bottom). For the siding section, I want to use the reed switches to simply alternate 2 trains running this static route. One pulls in, trips the switch, cuts power, and the other pulls out and runs. I could then also have one of them run clockwise and one CCW for a little variety. Also I want to have an override for this to keep the auto-switch from happening. Then I will be able to run a longer train than the siding can handle at times.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

one train at a time (to make sure the faster one doesn't rear end the slower one)


[email protected] said:


> I am still trying to understand how this block control / train detection works that you are talking about.


when train A passes by ie the left reed is tripped. train B trips the right reed. based on this input systems determines how to position the turnout.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am glad you like the idea. I don't have time to digest what you replied.
But my last idea solves the the block problem, by creating two loops.

You eliminate the black switches. Add the rest. Keep the blue.










Two more things. This will take a large transformer, three rooms is a lot of track.
With a reed switch they are not momentary so two magnets will be needed. One to activate the switch and the second to reset the reed.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

T-Man said:


> I am glad you like the idea. I don't have time to digest what you replied.
> But my last idea solves the the block problem, by creating two loops.
> 
> You eliminate the black switches. Add the rest. Keep the blue.
> ...



I have the Z1000 transformer (100 watt) that came with my MTH set. The dude at the train store said that it this should be plenty sufficient as long as I daisy chain several lock-ons throughout the track. He said to place them about every 10 feet of track to be safe. Is this not the case? 

Are you using a different type of reed switch? I got a couple and they are momentary. The reed springs back when the magnet is removed. Do you use some sort of a latching reed switch or something? 

I will do some thinking on your drawing. Thanks. Some good ideas coming on this thread already. Much appreciated.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Are you using a different type of reed switch? I got a couple and they are momentary. The reed springs back when the magnet is removed. Do you use some sort of a latching reed switch or something?


rob i don't think you will need anything like that. it is only short pulse that is required to discharge a CDU throgh turnout coil. no need of anything other then momentary switches


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

tankist said:


> rob i don't think you will need anything like that. it is only short pulse that is required to discharge a CDU throgh turnout coil. no need of anything other then momentary switches


That's what I thought about those.

So, what is the verdict on the transformer? Is it correct that I can use my Z1000 as long as I wire multiple lock-ons throughout the track? I am hoping this is the case. Seems logical to me.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

*Brilliant!*

T-man! I didn't really realize how nice your solution was until I mapped it out in the MTH software. This is the PERFECT layout! 
It gives me many more options and is actually much cleaner. 










Pros:
1. It eliminates 2 of the switches entirely. 
2. It puts all the switches on a single wall, which will be nicer to wire and monitor.
3. Gives me the option to run 2 trains at the same time, one on the inner loop and one on the outer. (And the occasional side-by-side drive by )
4. Still will allow me to create the optional auto-switching scenario I was thinking of. 
5. The only loss of space is a little bit in the edge of the closets, out of the way.

Cons:
1. I have to buy 2 more O42 turnouts and sell or return my 4 O31 switches. 

Seriously, thanks a lot for this idea. This is for sure the way I will be setting it up. :thumbsup:

Enough for now, I have some shelves that need building.

-Rob


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am glad you like the idea. It is better to plan it out now than later.
The Z1000 may be small. It has to supply three rooms and how many feet of track?To make it work the wire is going to have to be a heavy gage. Normallly it's 18 but 16 would be better .Have any heavy speaker wire around? Then again everthing you have is new. I run the old stuff.
Just a thought.
I know of reed switches but have never used them.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

T-Man said:


> I am glad you like the idea. It is better to plan it out now than later.
> The Z1000 may be small. It has to supply three rooms and how many feet of track?To make it work the wire is going to have to be a heavy gage. Normallly it's 18 but 16 would be better .Have any heavy speaker wire around? Then again everthing you have is new. I run the old stuff.
> Just a thought.
> I know of reed switches but have never used them.


I bought a big spool of 16 gauge speaker wire to wire this all up, so that hopefully will be sufficient to get the juice to the other end of the track. I am going to set up a super long snake track in the rec room this weekend just to play around with track power on a long run. I have enough curves to probably snake a 80-100 feet of track back and forth.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

*Long test track setup*

I set up a test track in the rec room which snakes back and forth for about 80 feet to test the "new" diesel train and cars out. The guy at the hobby store said to put lockons every 10-15 feet, but I just used 2 for the whole track and it worked fine. For the final install, I will probably put them every 20 feet or so for good measure.

The train ran fine and we kept adding cars. Now we are running with all the cars (15) and it is having no problem keeping up the load. Even with a bunch of O31 180s it is chugging along nicely. Here are a couple pictures and video of the test track setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTFMAC0We3o


















Hacked up the Z1000 controller so I will be able to remotely mount the controls in a nice box in the wall eventually. Looks a little ghetto for now, but it works.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

*Roadbed for sound deadening?*

Since this will be running on 3/4" wood shelves high up on the wall, I assume it is going to be a little noisy. I assume something like a cork roadbed will help this a little, along with screwing the track securely to the surface. Where do you folks get your O scale cork roadbed for a decent price? I looked at home depot and their rolls of cork are still pretty small for the price. Or would you suggest a different material if aesthetics are not a concern? (IE : the roadbed will not be visible over the edge of the shelf.) I have appx 140 feet of track, so I'd like to get something cost-effective.

Thanks!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

You might try a plumbing-supplies wholesaler and look for cork that's used to wrap water pipe to insulate it. A good rule of thumb is that an item that's used in construction is cheaper than a similar item used for decor.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I was going to say that one hookup for every 10 foot is over kill.

Once you get it all set up if you happen to have a weak spot just add another to it.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Really Relays*

I was reading up on BLock Signals and found these relays boards. Should provide good reading. they give a nice explaination of each board. I can't make the boards at their prices.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

T-Man said:


> I was reading up on BLock Signals and found these relays boards. Should provide good reading.


Wow, that is a good find. So I looked at the "Automatic train XChange" circuit board, and it describes to a T what I was trying to accomplish. Well, I have a little reading to do! 

Thanks again for the great info!


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

OK, just trying to understand a few things here, forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I don't know so much bout that there 'lectricity stuff! 
In my layout here, we now have an inner and outer loop, separated by a crossover section. 










I assume the point is to run the inner and outer loops off of separate transformers, correct? If that is the case, I would need to insulate the joints where the switches come together on the crossover right? To keep them both separately powered? OK, so if that's how it gets hooked up, what happens when I flip the switches to do a crossover? The train will obviously at some point be bridging the gap between both loops, and therefor picking up current from both transformers. What happens then? Is this something that will short-circuit something? 

Or do I need to have an unpowered gap between the crossover that the train can coats through and then pick up current from the other loop?

The other option is to run the whole shebang off of a single transformer, right? The problem here is that I then don't have any control over the discrete speeds of both trains.

Any thoughts on how this will play out? I am having a hard time ironing it out in my head.

Thanks folks!
Rob


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I've been toying with similar multi-transformer arrangements, in my head. I'm going to tell you what I believe will work for my AF outfit; you may find it does or doesn't for yours, since my e-unit is electro-mechanical and slower to change direction.
1. Make sure the polarity on both transformers is matched.
2. You're right, you need to isolate the two sections of track from one another. Plastic/nylon pins will accomplish this.
3. The idea is to roll through the change-up zone fast, so the momentum of the armature as it spins continues through the brief interruption in current.

Problem areas for others more qualified than I to discuss are my ac vs your dc, your more modern electronics, and whether I'm just a blathering idiot who should sit down, be quiet, and let his betters answer the question.
Best of luck with it, because I'm planning a 3-transformer setup later this year and want to hear what is said!


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

Reckers said:


> I've been toying with similar multi-transformer arrangements, in my head. I'm going to tell you what I believe will work for my AF outfit; you may find it does or doesn't for yours, since my e-unit is electro-mechanical and slower to change direction.
> 1. Make sure the polarity on both transformers is matched.
> 2. You're right, you need to isolate the two sections of track from one another. Plastic/nylon pins will accomplish this.
> 3. The idea is to roll through the change-up zone fast, so the momentum of the armature as it spins continues through the brief interruption in current.
> ...


One quick response that may help others in answering...my trains are also AC, not DC. They are both MTH engines, one older diesel, and a modern PS2 steam loco.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Ac will unquestionably work in your favor. How do your e-units work? On my old stuff, an electric coil creates a magnetic field that keeps the e-unit from cycling. For it to cycle, the field has to relax long enough for a metal plate to fall and rotate the cylinder. If the power loss is brief, it won't cycle and the field will re-establish itself as the plate is dropping, yanking it back up: no direction change. The key is to cross the dead zone at speed.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Yes, you can use two. Both must be isolated. You can connect the common terminals of each one. Make sure the direction is the same when crossing. Try to keep the same throttle or lower. You could have it off and just start it up after it crosses.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks T and Reck,
I am not sure what you mean about connecting the common terminals of each. You mean I only have to isolate the outside rail and not the center rail?
Also, on the transition, is my assumption correct that I need to have a connector section long enough so that the engine does not bridge the gap between the 2 different powered sections with it's front/back pickups? Or does this not matter? I'm a little confused about what happens if I have front wheels on one transformer and rears on the second. If they are both running say 14V, will the engine pick up a spike of 28V? Like I said, 'lectricals ain't me specialty 

Thanks again folks, you are a huge help!

I have my swiss-cheese walls done and 1/3 of my shelves hung, so I will possibly be laying track up there this weekend. very excited to get to the next step. I have been spending a week shellacing shelves and the smell is melting my brain!





T-Man said:


> Yes, you can use two. Both must be isolated. You can connect the common terminals of each one. Make sure the direction is the same when crossing. Try to keep the same throttle or lower. You could have it off and just start it up after it crosses.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Connect the U terminals and keep them on the outside rail. In phase you will not get 24 volts. All modern transformers are phased with the silly big prong for a plug unless you filed it down. You do not need a mid section. You do not show enough room to have one anyway. If you want a safe dead zone have it a length that when the engine is on it only one contact is touching a powered rail from one side.


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

*Interesting transformer issue*

So last night I set up the test track of the inner/outer loop that I will be installing up on the shelf layout. I wanted to try out running the loops on separate transformers. I insulated a couple 3.5" sections to go between switches at the crossover point, so the train will only be bridging the gap on both XFormers for a second. Everything seems to go smoothly there.

I ran into an interesting issue though, on the second of my transformers, which is an MTH Z750 from about 10 years ago. On the loop powered by this one, I had my voltmeter hooked up, and when trains get to a certain area of the loop, it spikes voltage and speeds the train up, and the lockon lanterns flicker brighter. So I would be cruising it around 7V, and then for a few seconds it would make random spikes to 12-14V...not a steady spike either, but a jumpy up-down spike. Weird. 

So I then switched transformers to check that out, and sure enough it happened on the other loop with this transformer too, but now in a different area.

I kept observing for a while. It doesn't always do it, I would say on about 1 out of 3 loops it would happen. Also, it does not seem to ever spike if there is no train on the track, just stays steady where I set it.

Do you folks have any ideas what would make this happen?

Thanks!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Check your wiring and remove a section of track between the loops. Also is the increase near your power connections to the transformer?


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

T-Man said:


> Check your wiring and remove a section of track between the loops. Also is the increase near your power connections to the transformer?


I had checked voltages and even disconnected the other transformer while I was testing this, so I don't think there is any connection between loops causing this. And actually, the increase seems to be around the farthest point away from the transformer, but it continues for a while after it spikes. Its very erratic, so I think it might just be some bad component in the transformer. Weird.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I had to brood over this one.

I came up with a theory. First I think your wires are reversed. Modern engines with sound need the correct pulse/phase. 

I think you are feeding power from the outer rails. At the farthest point, both rails may feed the motor and it jumps. So one rail, supplies, then both then the other. Your engine is sophisticated than an old Lionel. It is the only story I could come up with. 

So switch the terminal feeds to the track. Did you read your directions?

Another plan is to totally isolate the inner rail at the far end, when you are feeding the center and outer.See what happens.

Good Idea?


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

Hi T-Man,
I will check into this. Everything is set up according to the directions. I am powering the track on the inner rails in only one spot. I still am planning on at least one more lock-on at the far end of the loop. Maybe that will normalize things. I will also try sending power to the outer rails instead and see what happens. 
I am still thinking that it must have something to do with the transformer, although I only see a difference in wattage between the two of them (75W vs 100W), and everything else looks the same. I am hoping I don't need to buy a new Z1000 transformer to make this work right.

On other fronts, I spent all day today getting the trim on the train shelves so they are cosmetically complete now. All thats left is to trim the holes through the walls and take some pics and video. Looks good, and so much fun!

Thanks,
Rob



T-Man said:


> I had to brood over this one.
> 
> I came up with a theory. First I think your wires are reversed. Modern engines with sound need the correct pulse/phase.
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Dec 8, 2009)

*Finished!!*

Finally put the finishing touches on this weekend, and it's looking pretty good. I posted a thread in 'Member Layouts' with all the pictures and video of it:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2995

The auto-crossover circuit will have to wait for a while, but I can do the crossover manually for now.


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