# How to tell what scale and gauge a box car is.



## FleetingMoments (Oct 26, 2021)

I really do not know much about model trains. I have gotten several boxes of vintage box cars and some locomotives from my parents who want me to sell them. I think many of them used to be my uncle's who passed a few years back. So far I have been doing ok selling on Ebay just putting the scale the box says the box car is. Now Ebay wants us to put the gauge in. I have no clue how to determine the gauge. I have put the length, width, and height of the train in the listing. 

I sold a Lionel box car that I listed as O scale, and someone contacted me that it was O gauge. I would like to be able to know or tell that for myself.

From my research the scale is the size of the train compared to life size. The gauge is the width of the track. Do I need to measure the wheels from inside to inside. I haven't found a chart or anything so far that makes sense to me as to this measurement is this gauge. 

Posting an example. The top one, I have seen others post this as an HO, and my husband said was also HO. The next two have HO on the box. The bottom one is noticeably smaller than the other two. I'm thinking the difference is the gauge.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Show that the folks at EBAY are pretty ignorant of model trains. HO is a scale (1/87th), but it's also a gauge -- standard gauge (4'8-1/2") scales down to 16.5mm gauge track. 3 foot gauge would be notated HOn3, and uses 10.5mm gauge rails. 

Personally, I would just say "standard gauge" to avoid confusion.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

The reason the bottom one is smaller is that it represents equipment from the Civil War to the early 1900s, the others are closer to the 1920s thru 1970s. They are all 1:87 HO scale.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

As shaygetz points out, just as in real life, things of the same type can vary in dimensions. Rail cars, like ships, have grown a bit larger in width and height, but they've become a lot longer over time. So, any HO scale box car from the pre-1900 era will look quite a bit shorter between the two swiveling trucks below the frame than a post-WW II boxcar will. Passenger cars prior to 1900 were about half the length of those used in the 1920's and beyond. The largest passenger cars in early times might have weighed near 30 tons, but by the 30's the largest diners came in near 90 tons....quite a difference. All still 'standard gauge' because their wheel flanges are the same distance apart on each axle.

What matters is the distance between the two flanges. At the end of each axle is a wheel, and each wheel has a blade running around the inner edge, a flange. There are hobby gauges to measure this, but any decent ruler will do, or a caliper. Assuming the wheels are actually 'in gauge', each gauge will have a defined distance between flanges. 

You can also tell by the diameter of the wheels themselves. An N scale item will have wheels near 5/16" in diameter, give or take, while rolling stock in HO will have wheels closer to 1/2" in diameter. Generally, you can lay an N scale item across your palm and it will just come to both edges. Generally, an HO item will extend well beyond the edges of your palms (longer passenger cars confound this guesstimate).


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## FleetingMoments (Oct 26, 2021)

*CTValleyRR - I believe there are Ebay sellers who are knowledgeable about model trains. Unfortunately I'm not. Neither my dad nor my uncle taught me anything about them. I wish my dad could help me learn. I wish I could use standard gauge. For sellers Ebay has an item specifics they want us to fill out. Being required soon is gauge for model trains, and they have listed every gauge ever made standard and non-standard. Just for Ho they have HO, HOj, HOn2, HOn21/2/HOn30/HOne, HOn3, HOn31/2/HOm, HOp, HOz/HOi/HOf. This gets me nervous. I haven't even heard of some of them. If I select HO when it is a HOn2, it sets me for an item not as described and a negative feedback. I use to think all track was the same for the HO scale. Now I know HOn2 is narrower than HO.

Shaygetz - Thank you for the history, and a very good simple explanation.

Mesenteria - Thank you. This helps me a little more. I should be measuring from one flange to the other flange on the wheel, because that would basically be the width of the track it goes on. If I find a loose car, that would help a hobbyist determine what track the car would fit on.

Knowing hobbyists are way more knowledgeable, I already have the length, width, and height of the train car in the description hoping it would help them. I haven't seen others do that. At least I'm trying to learn even though I doubt I'll buy train items to resell myself. I have about 10 large boxes to go through. A lot of track, controllers, and other display items. I'll make another thread about the Train engines.

Any more help and explanations will be much appreciated. Please explain this. when Ebay lists the N gauge, N, Narrow Gauge, Nn2/Ne, Nn3/Nm, No. 1, No. 1n3, No. 2, No.3. I thought the n2 meant it was a narrow gauge representing a two foot wide track, and n3 was a narrow gauge representing a 3 foot wide track. Why would they just have narrow gauge? What does the No in No. 1 stand for?*


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

No. 1 (number = No.) is 1:32 scale run on LGB G scale track as standard gauge. 1:24 scale runs on G track as three foot gauge and 1:22.5 runs on the same track as meter gauge. You are correct noting the various "n" gauges as narrow.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The most common track gauge for HO scale and N scale is just plain old HO and N. Narrow gauge equipment is not as common, it usually pricier than standard, and somewhat more difficult to find at the local hobby shop. In some areas of the world it is much more common, but not in the States.

If your rolling stock is all in boxes as in your three photos above, it will say HO right on the box and relieve you of having to measure each and every car. You will also know by sight, after a while, if it is anything other than HO from the wheel spacing on the axles of the truck. 

Don't confuse scale and gauge. Your research into scale is correct. Gauge can be more confusing as you have found out.

_Scale can consist of multiple *gauges*_, but the rolling stock and locomotives are all the same scale within a scale. They may be smaller or larger in physical size, but they are true to size of the actual prototype.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The feedback you got on your O scale listing is mostly unique to O gauge. Someone pointed out that in O gauge the scale is not always the same, plus referring to O scale almost always means two rail rather than three rail equipment. The scale of cars and engines used in O gauge can vary from 1/64 to 1/43 even though they all run on O gauge track. Many postwar Lionel items have a different scale for each of the thee dimensions.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Defininitions:

*Gauge:* the distance between the rails.
*Scale:* the size ratio of the model to the original. e.g. 1:87, 1:160, etc.

Specific model railroad scales have names. "N Scale" is 1:160. "HO Scale" is 1:87. "O scale" is 1:48. ("HO" scale actually gets its name from "Half O" BTW)

Now..... this is where things get messy... there are "O gauge" toy trains that are not modelled to any particularly accurate scale, but run on standard O gauge tracks. And standard O-gauge track may not be exactly to 1:48 O scale... (Read up on "Proto48" standards if you want to go down this rabbit hole.) So while "(X) scale" and "(X) gauge" are normally sort-of interchangeable, there can be a semantic difference between "O scale" and "O gauge". Generally though if someone is going to hassle you on the difference they're being pedantic, but it IS a mess.

There are also "narrow gauge" trains; when modeling this, it's often denoted by adding an "n" followed by the (scale) track gauge after the regular scale name. For example, if you have an HO scale model, but it's a model of a 3' narrow gauge train, it would be labelled as "HOn3". While the track gauge is narrow, this is still HO scale though. Narrow gauge engines and cars tend to be much smaller than standard gauge (particularly since narrow-gauge railways in north America tended to be older, historic operations, running through very twisty terrain) but everything else in the world is the same size.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

FleetingMoments said:


> *What does the No in No. 1 stand for?*


Like shay mentioned above, "No. 1" or "#1" or "1" gauge is a specific scale/gauge.

"O scale/gauge" is actually originally "0" (zero) gauge, but the zero eventually changed to an oh.

"HO" scale, is actually originally named "H0" (half zero)


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

There is a lot more good information above. The challenge with O and to some extent in S is that the term "scale" has evolved to a very specific configuration. If something is called O scale, that has come to mean it operates on two rail O gauge track. If something is called S scale then that usually means it will operate on Code100 or smaller rail.


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## FleetingMoments (Oct 26, 2021)

Thanks everyone, all of you have given me a good head start. I'll keep digging into model trains, and learn what I can. I have a feeling I still won't be done learning when I sell the last train car and track. I have a bunch of loose track, controllers, and other items. Anyhow. I haven't run across any loose train cars as of yet. I still have about 10 boxes to look through. Most boxes are marked, some are not, and some have missing information due to missing flaps. I do have kits mostly built. I have run across one car in the wrong box. I'm waiting to see if I come across the correct box. I'm listing the easy items right now, and will list the harder items later on as I learn more. Thanks again. 

Any more advise is always welcome. I'll keep an eye on this thread.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

So how about a link to your ebay profile so we can see what your selling?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hi Fleeting Moments,

HO-gauge track measures 16.5 mm, or just a fuzz over 5/8", between the rails. 3-rail O-gauge track measures 1-1/4" between the outside rails.

Based on the few clues you have posted thus far, I'd say chances are *pretty good* that everything you have in your possession is either going to be either standard HO-scale (and thus plain old HO-gauge) or else plain old O-gauge.

If you find something that doesn't fit on either of those two track sizes, post some pictures and any one of us can undoubtedly help you figure out what you got.


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## FleetingMoments (Oct 26, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> So how about a link to your ebay profile so we can see what your selling?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


This will take you to my store category. I don't have much up right now though. Suzys Emporium


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks, a lot of your target audience is on this forum. I'm sure I won't be the only one watching. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## FleetingMoments (Oct 26, 2021)

Mixed Freight said:


> Hi Fleeting Moments,
> 
> HO-gauge track measures 16.5 mm, or just a fuzz over 5/8", between the rails. 3-rail O-gauge track measures 1-1/4" between the outside rails.
> 
> ...


I have an N gauge bridge listed. I have a 00 gauge engine to list. The thing with the engines my dad had everything running and working before he put them in storage. They have been in storage for quite some time. I don't know if I would have everything to test them, and I don't have the knowledge to set up track and make sure everything is still working. I don't want to mess up an engine if something needs to be done with them before trying to run them. I think I'm going to have to sell them as untested. Maybe someone might buy it knowing they can fix it if it doesn't run, or buy as a display piece.


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## tiggersbounce98_1265 (Oct 15, 2021)

The three example photos you posted are all HO. The Athearn car would be worth the most (but not a lot). It's their Ready-to-Roll line, which is slightly better than the old "blue Box." Athearn Genesis is their top of the line. 

The Bachmann is worth less, how much less depends on whether the couplers are truck-mounted or frame mounted. Any cars with truck-mounted couplers are worth a lot less. The AHM will have truck-mounted couplers, the Athearn will have frame-mounted. I can't tell from the Bachmann photo; they originally had truck-mounted, but went to frame mounted. I can give you rough value by brand (not specific amounts, but general amounts) if you have other manufacturers. What you pictured aren't worth a lot, but who knows, you may have some diamonds in the rough among the entire collection.


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