# Considering n scale



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

We currently have a 4x12 HO layout that my son and I enjoy. However, we have a counter top in the play room that measures 30" x 30' that is begging for a train. With only 30" wide is pretty much limited to n scale or smaller. It also has a small tunnel through the wall that leads to a counter top in the adjacent room. It would be really fun to run a train through that. And if I understand correct, 30" should be wide enough for most any rolling stock in n scale. Maybe a double loop with r11 and 12-3/4"?

Our HO is laid with flex track and atlas switches I got on the cheap... yes I have issues with them. So for this I'm considering kato unitrack. Seems it is better quality/ reliability, has lots of options and readily available. I need to do side measuring and play with a track planning software to see if it will do what I need, but the plan would be to start with just an oval abs add to it. Since the counter is solid wood and has drawers under it, I would use foam as a base so I could push trees, lights etc into it and run wire under it where necessary. Turnouts would be manual or surface mount. This leaves the counter untouched should we move. 

So talk me out of it. Is unitrack a bad idea? I don't rant want the hassle of flex track and ballisting etc. Keeping it kinda simple. Plop it down and run trains. 

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Too small for me to work with. Detail lacking compared to HO and larger scales. Fiddly track, lightweight cars. Difficult to work on due to small size and aging eyes. Cost is about the same as HO for equipment. Selection of equipment smaller than that of HO.

There are positives, but you wanted to be talked out of N scale so I won't mention those.

Use that 30"x30' countertop for a point-to-point railroad with yard switching, or a staging yard or a passenger terminal. With 30' available, you could use realistically long passenger trains without fear of running out of room.

There is also narrow gauge to consider. You could build a very nice mountainous narrow gauge layout for logging, mining, or tourism. Or all three.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Good arguments! We prefer continuous running. And I don't think HO will fit through the tunnel. Thoughts to consider though

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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

If you don't want the hassle of flex track and ballasting, but just want to plop it down and run trains, then Kato N-scale Unitrack is the ONLY way to go. Extremely good track and reliable track system, except for their #4 turnouts and double cross-overs. These can be problematic.

If you enjoy running modern-era trains, then you would be amazed at the detail and the quality of your better N-scale manufacturers. A lot of new N-scale equipment rivals, or even exceeds, the detail of HO equipment from back in the 70's and 80's. Yeah, modern day N-scale locos or rolling stock costs about the same as HO equipment, but you can have bigger trains in the same space as you could with HO. While the selection of N-scale equipment isn't as great as HO, you'd be surprised at what has been produced in the last 20 years. Some things have been out of production for awhile, so you would have to shop for such items on the second-hand market. But even so, these items are generally not too hard to find.

Got a local hobby shop that carries N-scale? Stop in and ask to look at some of their better quality stuff. I think you would be impressed. Got any train shows with layouts scheduled sometime in the near future? Stop in and check out any N-scale layouts that might be set up and running. These guys will always be running quality stuff, and most are more than willing to answer any questions you may have.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

vette-kid said:


> So talk me out of it...


Not into it.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> Not into it.


Wrong forum for us to talk him out of N scale. 😁


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

You can always do HO and N scale....


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Steve Rothstein said:


> Wrong forum for us to talk him out of N scale.


I'll take both sides! I've already kind of talked myself into it. In fact, I placed an offer on a lot on ebay, for some reason he ended it shortly after, unsold. So still don't have anything, but almost!

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

shaygetz said:


> You can always do HO and N scale....
> View attachment 556613


Hard to tell in that pic, you have both in that layout?

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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

vette-kid said:


> Hard to tell in that pic, you have both in that layout?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


HO on top, N scale on full extension glides below. In the first picture is a switch module in HO scale against the wall to the upper left.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

That's a cool trick!


And I do plan to keep the HO layout. I'll try to get pics of the space tomorrow


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> I'll take both sides! I've already kind of talked myself into it. In fact, I placed an offer on a lot on ebay, for some reason he ended it shortly after, unsold. So still don't have anything, but almost!


Well, I think you have a good idea. 30 inches wide would let you make the turns in N as you mentioned. I would probably go to the next size up from what you mentioned as some of the longer cars and locomotives might have a little trouble on the 11" curve. If you buy the curves separately, you could get 13.75 and 12.375 inch radius curves. I could see a long oval with maybe a small switching yard in the center of it. With 30 feet, you would have enough length to do a figure eight with proper elevation on one side and crossing in the middle, with a small switching yard in each half of the 8 off the lower level track. 

I want a long layout like that because I like to run long trains. On my 4x8 layout, I have a couple trains that look like they cover half the layout if I use all of the cars I have for them. Fortunately, it doesn't hurt to have extra cars on the shelf to change out once in a while.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

This is a VERY rough concept of what I'm going for. The solid line is a wall with a tunnel already there.









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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> This is a VERY rough concept of what I'm going for. The solid line is a wall with a tunnel already there.


I can see a lot of possibilities for that layout. I saw you were going to use foam as a base so you did not damage the countertop and put a little scenery in it. That should work well in N scale.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Obviously not to scale, it's 30' long so room for a yard and considering a double loop. I want to minimize turnouts, so it will be a small yard. Maybe a siding for passenger terminal. 

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## Aqualungs (Jan 25, 2021)

Steve Rothstein said:


> I can see a lot of possibilities for that layout. I saw you were going to use foam as a base so you did not damage the countertop and put a little scenery in it. That should work well in N scale.


Also if you use clear Elmer's school glue it will easily come off everything. It holds nice and pops up easy

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## Aqualungs (Jan 25, 2021)

N or HO, like Michael said 30" x 30' could give you a nice straight route, but you'd need ro open up the tunnel right!?
I think you said you bit on some N scale? You could do alor wirh that space! Look forward to seeing it unfold

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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> Obviously not to scale, it's 30' long so room for a yard and considering a double loop. I want to minimize turnouts, so it will be a small yard. Maybe a siding for passenger terminal.


When I saw the drawing, my first thought was that the short loop on the other side of the tunnel would make a nice city area with a siding for the passenger area. You could make a small freight/yard area as it comes out of the tunnel on the long side and then just make the long loop. I like the fact that you drew it with the long side being curved instead of just straight lines. It would be a nice scenic layout that isn't boring that way.


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

N scale is hard to see with these old eyes. Um, well, that's about all I got against it. I really enjoyed mine when I had it.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Chaostrain said:


> N scale is hard to see with these old eyes. Um, well, that's about all I got against it. I really enjoyed mine when I had it.


Well, my eyes are pretty good thankfully. 

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

And finally, pics of the proposed location. Excuse the toys!

First is the HO layout and a view of that end of the room. N scale would go opposite side. Of the projection wall. This is the long view of the shelf, then the tunnel with an HO Loco for reference and last is the other side of the tunnel. That side would not get any scenery, just a turn around.






























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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Too small for me to work with. Detail lacking compared to HO and larger scales. Fiddly track, lightweight cars. Difficult to work on due to small size and aging eyes. Cost is about the same as HO for equipment. Selection of equipment smaller than that of HO.
> 
> There are positives, but you wanted to be talked out of N scale so I won't mention those.
> 
> ...


vettekid;

All of the the first part of MichaelE's response is based on bull"feathers", and personal preference. I have a lot of respect, and admiration, for Michael's fine work, and I'm a little surprised, & quite disappointed, to see him regurgitate the same old nonsense about N-scale that I've been fighting against for decades. Perhaps he's just being funny and overtrying to meet your "talk me out of it" request, I don't know. Reality check. N-scale is just that, a modeling scale, period.

No, N-scale is not harder to work with than HO-scale, unless you happen to be used to HO-scale and are just switching to N-scale. Then its a simple matter of trying out the new scale, giving it a fair chance, and getting used to it. (I should know, I've modeled in O-scale, HO scale, and now N-scale.)
Yes, some individual modelers may have personal medical issues with their eyesight, and/or manual dexterity, that make N-scale modeling impractical for them, but that doesn't make N-scale impractical for everybody, or even for most people, but only for those few individuals.
I'm a couple months shy of my 73rd birthday, have three different powers of eyeglasses, a permanently bent damaged forefinger, arthritis, and intermittently shaky hands. Yet I model in N-scale just fine thanks. If I got to the point where I couldn't function in N-scale, I don't know that switching to HO-scale would necessarily be enough. I think, at that point, O-scale, or G-scale, might be a better fit. By the way, in the forty-odd years I've been an N-scaler, I don't recall ever getting any static from O-scale, S-scale, or G-scale modelers. It always seems to come from an HO-scale modeler. I don't know why.

Interestingly, all the same criticisms were made before about the, "ridiculously tiny, hard to work with, toy like, won't stay on the track, etc. blah blah blah ad infinitum" scale. long ago.
They were made by folks using the, then dominant, O-scale, about the "silly little" new HO-scale, way back when it was new. They weren't true of HO-scale then, and they are not true of N-scale now.

I have seen, and scratchbuilt, some very well detailed models in N-scale. A couple of which are shown below.

The N-scale track is just track. Does the fact that HO-scale track is half the size of O-scale track make it "fiddly" too? Or is it just somewhat smaller track, that works as well as any other size track? I've seen comments here contending that N-scale track had to be fitted with near-microscopic perfection, since a 1/6" gap between rails was approximately a foot gap on the prototype, and yet "only" a six inch gap in HO-scale. 
So just when was the last time you saw a prototype train jump over a six inch gap between rail ends?
By the way, good trackwork is equally necessary in all modeling scales, and the track laying process is the same across the scale spectrum.

Yes, N-scale commercial cars are indeed, lighter than the NMRA recommended standards. But golly gosh, so are HO-scale commercial cars. That's why modelers in both these scales add weight to their cars.

Yes, there is less selection in N-scale than in HO-scale. However there is far more available in N-scale than you could ever afford to buy, let alone fit on your proposed small layout. There is also more available in HO scale than in G-scale, O-scale, S-scale, TT scale, Z-scale, or live steam scales, for that matter, but I don't see any stampede of modelers from any of those scales to recognize " the error of their ways" and migrate to the one and only "good" scale. 

Yes, Kato Unitrack is well made, and simple to hook up. It should work well for your small layout.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> We currently have a 4x12 HO layout that my son and I enjoy. However, we have a counter top in the play room that measures 30" x 30' that is begging for a train. With only 30" wide is pretty much limited to n scale or smaller. It also has a small tunnel through the wall that leads to a counter top in the adjacent room. It would be really fun to run a train through that. And if I understand correct, 30" should be wide enough for most any rolling stock in n scale. Maybe a double loop with r11 and 12-3/4"?
> 
> Our HO is laid with flex track and atlas switches I got on the cheap... yes I have issues with them. So for this I'm considering kato unitrack. Seems it is better quality/ reliability, has lots of options and readily available. I need to do side measuring and play with a track planning software to see if it will do what I need, but the plan would be to start with just an oval abs add to it. Since the counter is solid wood and has drawers under it, I would use foam as a base so I could push trees, lights etc into it and run wire under it where necessary. Turnouts would be manual or surface mount. This leaves the counter untouched should we move.
> 
> ...


vette_kid;

If you want to have fewer "issues" with your Atlas turnouts, this may help.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks TF. I believe he was just trying to comply with my "talk me out of it" request. I appreciate the feedback on N scale. 

I should have went with unitrack or something for HO scale as well. The turnouts work, but I do get a few derailment and shorts. If we run trains for an hour we might get 3-4 of each. I honestly just hadn't had the time to dissect the turnouts per your paper. Thus the desire for unitrack. I'm going for an easier setup and less frustrating time if im gone. 

I'm still trying to find a good deal on some track and some cars to play with a bit. 

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Well, here we go. Got a deal on some unitrack and a bullet train (Hayabusa), so let the adventure begin! The Hayabusa is DC only, but if it works out I'll try and convert it. 

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## Railtwister (Nov 5, 2015)

vette-kid said:


> We currently have a 4x12 HO layout that my son and I enjoy. However, we have a counter top in the play room that measures 30" x 30' that is begging for a train. With only 30" wide is pretty much limited to n scale or smaller. It also has a small tunnel through the wall that leads to a counter top in the adjacent room. It would be really fun to run a train through that. And if I understand correct, 30" should be wide enough for most any rolling stock in n scale. Maybe a double loop with r11 and 12-3/4"?
> 
> Our HO is laid with flex track and atlas switches I got on the cheap... yes I have issues with them. So for this I'm considering kato unitrack. Seems it is better quality/ reliability, has lots of options and readily available. I need to do side measuring and play with a track planning software to see if it will do what I need, but the plan would be to start with just an oval abs add to it. Since the counter is solid wood and has drawers under it, I would use foam as a base so I could push trees, lights etc into it and run wire under it where necessary. Turnouts would be manual or surface mount. This leaves the counter untouched should we move.
> 
> ...





vette-kid said:


> We currently have a 4x12 HO layout that my son and I enjoy. However, we have a counter top in the play room that measures 30" x 30' that is begging for a train. With only 30" wide is pretty much limited to n scale or smaller. It also has a small tunnel through the wall that leads to a counter top in the adjacent room. It would be really fun to run a train through that. And if I understand correct, 30" should be wide enough for most any rolling stock in n scale. Maybe a double loop with r11 and 12-3/4"?
> 
> Our HO is laid with flex track and atlas switches I got on the cheap... yes I have issues with them. So for this I'm considering kato unitrack. Seems it is better quality/ reliability, has lots of options and readily available. I need to do side measuring and play with a track planning software to see if it will do what I need, but the plan would be to start with just an oval abs add to it. Since the counter is solid wood and has drawers under it, I would use foam as a base so I could push trees, lights etc into it and run wire under it where necessary. Turnouts would be manual or surface mount. This leaves the counter untouched should we move.
> 
> ...


UniTrack is great, but is a bit visually challenged. But operationally, it’s the best. With the counter space you have available, I would make T-TRAK modules. You could start with just a few to begin with, then add more as you go along. Google T-TRAK for more info, the smallest modules’ footprint is about the size of a sheet of paper, and the modules are very lightweight and user friendly. Once your have the corners or end loops, you can expand with as little as two 12” modules at a time.

Bill in FtL


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

I Turned 75 a week ago and am building an all new 7x18' 2 level N scale layout. I love tiny detail and am very impressed with the newer N scale offerings, even sound! Eyesight can be aided with many of the magnifiers on the market. I have been using Optivisors in my jewelry business for the last 40 years. Then add some good positionable LED lighting at your bench. If dexterity or lack of desire is the motivation, you can buy excellent scenery and structures ready made and just run trains. The Kato track is excellent chuice for layouts that can be pulled up and changed till your heart's content. Tack it down to 1" foam (the blue, yellow or pink EPS, NOT the white styrofoam! with a drop of white glue or cheap latex caulk under each end, or pin down with T pins run at a shallow angle through small drilled holes near the bottom of the roadbed. Run the T head parallel to the track and dab with a little grey paint to nearly disappear. A little static grass or ground cover will hide them completely. You have plenty of room through that tunnel for the foam, track and the tallest N scale stock.
Oh, almost all N scale equipment with handle 11" radius curves and most will do fine on 9.75" radius. In Europe and Japan, N scale layouts with 7" and tighter curves are not uncommon with shorter rolling stock.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Got some track and the Hayabusa yesterday. Going to play around with it this weekend. Also working a deal for some amtrak cars. 

I'm hoping I can fit two tracks side by side through the tunnel and avoid turnouts there. 

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Got some track and the Hayabusa yesterday. Going to play around with it this weekend. Also working a deal for some amtrak cars.
> 
> I'm hoping I can fit two tracks side by side through the tunnel and avoid turnouts there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


vette_kid;

Avoiding installing turnouts in a tunnel is very sensible. I fact, on the sensibility scale, its right up there with not walking off a cliff! 
Turnouts in tunnels have caused a whole lot of grief to many model railroaders. The only way it can work out reasonably well is if the tunnel is removeable. Turnouts are the most complicated form of track on any railroad. They need cleaning and maintenance, which can only be done effectively if you have the same access to the turnout inside the tunnel as you would to a turnout outside the tunnel.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

If you have about 2.25" width or more and straight track thru the tunnel you can put 2 tracks side by side through it. Since you are using Unitrack, just lay two pieces side by side inside the mouth of the tunnel if they fit you're all set. Unitrack double straights are narrower since they remove the adjoining tapered portion of the roadbed between the two tracks. You could do the same yourself with a course file or some off the outsides if you so desired. Curves require widening the spacing depending on the radius of the curve so the overhang of longer cars and locos don't hit a passing train or trackside obstructions. that's one of the features of the free software xtrack cad that I like, it will figure adjusted double track spacing on curves and easements between straights and curves for you. Easements are the increasing radius of the end of a curve into a straight or vice versa that are used in the real world trackage, highways, etc. that makes the transition smoother and more flowing than suddenly turning like the whip or wild mouse ride at an amusement park. Hard to do with sectional track tho unless the manufacturer offers transition sections.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

traction fan said:


> vette_kid;
> 
> Avoiding installing turnouts in a tunnel is very sensible. I fact, on the sensibility scale, its right up there with not walking off a cliff!
> Turnouts in tunnels have caused a whole lot of grief to many model railroaders. The only way it can work out reasonably well is if the tunnel is removeable. Turnouts are the most complicated form of track on any railroad. They need cleaning and maintenance, which can only be done effectively if you have the same access to the turnout inside the tunnel as you would to a turnout outside the tunnel.
> ...


The "tunnel" is talky only a few inches deep and opens into another room on the other side. So it would be really easily accessible. But I do want to minimize the number of turnouts. One, for simplicity, two for cost. 

I will have some, I'm thinking of a train station and maybe an intermodal of some kind. I have a fascination with autoracks and my HO layout is a little tight for them, so I'm already working on a long train of those. 

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I'm starting to feel like this was made for n scale trains! The surface is a bit uneven, so I'll have to work that out but overall the concept works.






























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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> I'm starting to feel like this was made for n scale trains! The surface is a bit uneven, so I'll have to work that out but overall the concept works.


Looks like you have the room to lay a sheet of foam down and still clear the tunnel in the wall. That would help smooth out the surface, especially if you notch it just right for the rough surface at the wall (if I am seeing the surface correctly).


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Steve Rothstein said:


> Looks like you have the room to lay a sheet of foam down and still clear the tunnel in the wall. That would help smooth out the surface, especially if you notch it just right for the rough surface at the wall (if I am seeing the surface correctly).


Yup, you are seeing correct. The challenge is that is not just the notch. The surface on the other side is shaky a bit lower. That's not a total show stopper, it just needs a smooth transition. Or slightly thicker foam

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

The height difference between counter tops is about 9/16". 1/2" insulation board is available locally and actually measures close to 5/8". So two layers on the low top and one layer on the rest will get is to within 1/16". I think we can Mahe that work!

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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> Got some track and the Hayabusa yesterday. Going to play around with it this weekend. Also working a deal for some amtrak cars.


If you are still interested in some Amtrak cars, I happen to have 4 cars that I ended up with duplicates of. They are phase 1 paint scheme, Kato single level cars. I think it is set 106-8011, but I would need to check the road numbers on them to be sure. When I get the numbers checked, I will confirm which Kato set it is. If you think they would work for you, I am sure we can come up with a mutually agreeable price for them.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I'm sure they would work, I have a deal pending on some amtrak cars right now. But the seller isn't responding. I'm going to give it a few more days and might consider it dead. 

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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

vette-kid said:


> I'm sure they would work, I have a deal pending on some amtrak cars right now. But the seller isn't responding. I'm going to give it a few more days and might consider it dead.


Well, given you went with the bullet train option, you might not still be interested in this but I did verify that it is Kato bookcase set 106-8011. If you did not get your other deal, I can send this to you if you are interested. The list price is $125 but I always figure half price for used. I do not remember how much of a discount I got, so I figure $50 plus shipping would be a fair price. If you are not interested, I will probably take it into my LHS for their consignment case.


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