# HELP! Identify this if you can.



## Big Ed

I won this car in a lot on E-Bay.
Are there any O gaugers here that know what this is?

It Has Small Kadee Os5-3 Couplers. ( goes around the track hooked to regular sized couplers)
Trucks are screwed to wood frame.
Real springs in the trucks.
Wood bottom with metal wire.
Brass steps all the way around. Brake wheel too.
I think the top is wood I know the cat walk is.
The four hatches may be wood also.
Plastic sides though. (I believe, as they sound like plastic)
I didn't want to scrape anything.
I'm trying to identify it. 
Anyone know the manufacturer of this car? Year?
Nice old from a kit car?
More pictures in Members Gallery,
big ed's album,
Under Miscellaneous.

Tanks for helping.


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## Reckers

Try looking here:

http://www.chiptin.com/schlitz/reefers2.htm

They list a Pabst car. I don't know anything about them, but it looks promising. Best of luck!


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## Reckers

Also here:

http://www.shopwiki.com/Pabst+40'+Wood+Reefer


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## Big Ed

Reckers said:


> Also here:
> 
> http://www.shopwiki.com/Pabst+40'+Wood+Reefer



That one is HO. This car is a little bigger then O/27


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## Big Ed

Reckers said:


> Try looking here:
> 
> http://www.chiptin.com/schlitz/reefers2.htm
> 
> They list a Pabst car. I don't know anything about them, but it looks promising. Best of luck!



This one I believe is HO too.


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## Boston&Maine

Just by looking at it the car screams "kit," which is an area that I know nothing about...


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## T-Man

My guess is an Aristo Craft kit. Compare this to what you have.
Yours could be out of production. Nice looking car though.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> My guess is an Arista Craft kit. Compare this to what you have.


That sure looks close to what I got T-man. But those have the large couplers. Mine has small Kadee OS5-3 couplers.
My doors an hatches don't open. Mine has a wood top and bottom, not sure about the sides. I will have to test it. Could be an all wood kit.

Why did they use the Small Kadee couplers on these?
The couplers do hook up to my O gauge (O/27) couplers but look funny. And not really secured right. I will take a picture of the difference in size.
I have been thinking about fitting it with regular O sized couplers. What do you think?

The car is just a bit bigger then an O gauge car.

I tried finding what year Aristo-Craft was founded but couldn't dig anything up.
Anyone know?


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## Boston&Maine

big ed said:


> Why did they use the Small Kadee couplers on these?
> The couplers do hook up to my O gauge (O/27) couplers but look funny. And not really secured right. I will take a picture of the difference in size.
> I have been thinking about fitting it with regular O sized couplers. What do you think?


Whoever was running this on their layout must have been using a 2-rail O scale setup...


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## Big Ed

Boston&Maine said:


> Whoever was running this on their layout must have been using a 2-rail O scale setup...



I never got into anything about two rail O gauge. 
They run those small Kadee couplers?
Guess I will have to do a little Two Rail researching.


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## T-Man

The small coupler could be to scale? With plastic the kit must be within 35 years. It's a mystery for now.


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## Boston&Maine

Yea, 2-rail O uses accurately scaled couplers while 3-rail O uses the oversized ones...


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## Big Ed

I got this tender and can't find any info on it.

The shell is a #1130-27 and the frame says 90-8302-T03

The wheel on it contacts the center rail and when it goes around it has balls in it to make a sound.
It was advertised as sounding "like a can of beans" lol

It sounds more like a baby rattle to me.

Anyone know the year they made these? or any more info on them?
I never saw one before.

It has a repainted (?) Jersey Central shell. The inside is the blue color Lionel had for them. Though the letters don't look like a heat stamp,or a decal.

It came with an #8632 loco posted in the Anything New thread.


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## T-Man

Ed, it goes with an 8903 also.It should be in the early Lionel supplements. My sons 8903 is strickly a DC Set.
My son has the 8632 it was in an 8644 set. The engine part list is in supplemental 32 page a63 and page 22 by Adobe reader. The electric diagram is on page 12,by adobe reader and in supplement 21.

I cannot find the tender in 1 thru 15 supps. I could look in the MPC era disc but that is the 1-9 I think.
I t goes to the 70's maybe even earlier.

You got a good deal. That's the book value but I have seen dealers sell the engine for 40 to 60.


The Tender is mechanical it is on page 175 adobe, in the 1-9 supplementals or page 4-4. The description is small round tender top. BUt extra parts are needed for the mechanical version. It first came out with the 8302 engine. It is also decsribed as SOS, SOund of Steam, I have the electronic version. It actually runs on AC.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> Ed, it goes with an 8903 also.It should be in the early Lionel supplements. My sons 8903 is strickly a DC Set.
> My son has the 8632 it was in an 8644 set. The engine part list is in supplemental 32 page a63 and page 22 by Adobe reader. The electric diagram is on page 12,by adobe reader and in supplement 21.
> 
> I cannot find the tender in 1 thru 15 supps. I could look in the MPC era disc but that is the 1-9 I think.
> I t goes to the 70's maybe even earlier.
> 
> You got a good deal. That's the book value but I have seen dealers sell the engine for 40 to 60.
> 
> 
> The Tender is mechanical it is on page 175 adobe, in the 1-9 supplementals or page 4-4. The description is small round tender top. BUt extra parts are needed for the mechanical version. It first came out with the 8302 engine. It is also decsribed as SOS, SOund of Steam, I have the electronic version. It actually runs on AC.



Is the engine #8632 strictly DC then?
I tried it with AC and it ran backwards for a moment. Then nothing?
It's got an on/off switch but it doesn't say what it is for. 

The engine part list is in supplemental 32 page a63 and page 22 by Adobe reader. The electric diagram is on page 12,by adobe reader and in supplement 21.

Where do I find all this? You got a link?


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## T-Man

The 8632 is a DC motor with the Electronic e unit. The off switch locks it into netral forward or reverse. Lionel Service document link

The best way to find a page is to go by the adobe reader. The pages given are for the manuals but to find it again I go bythe the adobe page.

BTW there are 44 supplements and you have to search to find something. Nothing is easy here.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> The 8632 is a DC motor with the Electronic e unit. The off switch locks it into netral forward or reverse. Lionel Service document link
> 
> The best way to find a page is to go by the adobe reader. The pages given are for the manuals but to find it again I go bythe the adobe page.
> 
> BTW there are 44 supplements and you have to search to find something. Nothing is easy here.


thanks T:thumbsup:


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## T-Man

That is the only place I have reference to that tender. This was the set I gave my son that we found with cat hair at a yard sale for 5.00. The tender is a Rio Grande . It dates to the 70's. I have a video of the sound AC sound system that replaced the wheel.


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## Big Ed

Heres one for you.

Anyone know what they use this for?

I found it in a tanker rail yard.

Take a guess I will tell later.


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## tjcruiser

Just a guess on my part ...

Looks like some sort of a service platform, like for working on the inner roof of an underpass or tunnel?

Is that an air compressor tank?


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## tjcruiser

Oh, and T-Man ...

I'm quite honored to see one of Rhode Island's proudest citizens in your Rio Grande photo!

TJ


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## Reckers

Would that be Mr. PotatoHead? I thought he was an Idaho native! As for the car, you've got me. TJ's guess was better than any I came up with.


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## T-Man

Mr. P is a Hasbro product from RI I believe. He is a recent addition. I need to find a matching Mrs. I may make him honorary mayor. He has the keen eyes and the starch to stick with the job.

The car must be some type of inspection platform. WIthout getting arrested try for another angle if possible.


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## Reckers

he's a great mayoral candidate: no half-baked ideas, and easy to butter up. Might get creamed in the election, though.


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## tjcruiser

Some years ago, Hasbro made a series of 6' tall Mr. Potato Head statues, each one uniquely dressed/decorated. They were placed around the state (RI) in high-profile public places.

One day, the newspaper headlines were ablaze ... one of the infamous Mr. P statues had been kidnapped. The ransom note left a few cryptic clues.

Days passed ... the public was shocked and restless. (You have to understand ... this is Rhode Island ... big news, here.)

Then, a few days later, I happened to be looking out at the big public field behind our house. Sirens. One police car ... then another ... and another. Flashing lights ... detectives ... CSI squad ... you name it.

Murder scene? Major drug bust? Jimmy Hoffa? Nope ...

They had found the infamous Mr. P in the field ... looking quite dishevelled, but otherwise not too badly scarred, given the traumatic experience.

(True story.)

I'll never look at Mr. P again, without shedding a tear for all of the horror that he's been through.

TJ


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## Big Ed

No body is right yet. 
I will let it sit another day.

Maybe someone will know. 
It amazed me when I found out what it was used for.:thumbsup:

Thats the only picture I got right now.
I had to shoot and run as they frown upon taking pictures in the rail yard. 

Maybe someone will know.


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## Reckers

I think it's a platform for filming a train's run: a train's view of the journey.


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## tjcruiser

Re: Mr. Potato Head ...



Reckers said:


> he's a great mayoral candidate: no half-baked ideas, and easy to butter up. Might get creamed in the election, though.


Now there ya' go ... making me laugh so hard that I'm slobbering all over my computer screen again. Who's going to clean up the mess, I say ... Who's going to clean up the mess ?!?


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## Big Ed

No one is right yet.

I will let it sit for another day.
I thought I would get more guesses.

Come on all don't be bashful take a guess.

I thought for sure some one would know out of all the experts we have here.

I was amazed when I was told what it was. 
I never knew they had such a thing.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

I'm grasping here, now ...

Not some sort of a de-icer thingy?


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> I'm grasping here, now ...
> 
> Not some sort of a de-icer thingy?


No..............


hint......> think high tech.


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## tjcruiser

You're killing us here, Big Ed ... not much in the way of clues!

Ok ... high tech ... hmmm ... some sort of antenna device ... military? (Though there's no military markings.)


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## Big Ed

I would like to get more guesses.

I thought Shaygetz would know.

How about B&m?

Bob? Tank?


OK I will tell tonight. I got to go there to load today. I will try to sneek a better picture of it.


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## T-Man

Because it's tamker cars I am guessing an end of train car since it is equipped with horns. So id you are reversing tankers this car is a buffer and warning.


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## Big Ed

Nope T.

Heres another shot I got today. Dark day the flash even went off.


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## Boston&Maine

It allows locomotives to be controlled remotely... It is like a full size model train :laugh:

Yes, I cheated: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=18900


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## Big Ed

Boston&Maine said:


> It allows locomotives to be controlled remotely... It is like a full size model train :laugh:
> 
> Yes, I cheated: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=18900




You win!:thumbsup:

I will send you a Big Mac with fries.:laugh:

I never knew such a thing existed.

That hooks to the engine and a guy with a control pack walks around switching the tanker cars. Wears it on his chest.
It eliminates the need for an engineer to run the Loco. All they need is two guys one to spot and one to control it.

Did you ever hear of these before? Has anyone?
I guess not since no one knew what it was.


I should have blocked out the numbers.


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## tjcruiser

DCC ... all JUMBO like!

Cool. I had no idea. Ya' got most of us.

I hope the thing operates on it's own special / dedicated frequency ... NOT something shared with the automatic garage door opener down the street! Dohh!

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> DCC ... all JUMBO like!
> 
> Cool. I had no idea. Ya' got most of us.
> 
> I hope the thing operates on it's own special / dedicated frequency ... NOT something shared with the automatic garage door opener down the street! Dohh!
> 
> TJ



I was thinking the same thing!
It could do some damage if it decided to go haywire!:laugh:

The rail yard is full of Flammable,corrosive, poison and peroxide cars! Plus non hazardous cars, but gooey, oily products.


B&M cheated.........I should have blocked the Numbers.

But Tanks for the link B&M.:thumbsup:


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## Big Ed

I ran across an old box of odds and ends.
These were saved from the dumps. my Bro in law rescued them.


This ones for the Tin Men.:thumbsup:

These have no number markings just says Lionel Lines on them.
All metal no aluminum.

Any info on them? Lionel numbers?


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## T-Man

Ed, you don't like junk. Just send them to me.


Is the back one yellow? It's a rare color for a 1700E.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> Ed, you don't like junk. Just send them to me.


The orange ones look like these, but all I find are listed as red I can't find anything on orange ones.

1700e set













The other red passenger cars, I can't find anything similar, Look at the rear cars back.
Both sets all metal, no plastic and no aluminum.


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## T-Man

Your picture shows the Lionel Jr motor clearly.


I'll take the red set before TJ sees it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes it did come in all orange and yellow is rare. 1936. It is a Lionel JR . Does it have the motor.??? I am still looking there are a few variations. 



The red are two 1674 Pullmans and a 1675 observation. They go to a Penssy Torpedo style engine numbe 1588? .I thought it would be 1688 but it looks like 1588. The red pieces are not listed in Doyles.


Very Nice Find Ed, :thumbsup::thumbsup:

The orange engine is the value for the set. Starts at 100 for very good condition. The cars start at 20 for very good.


The Orange vestibule and frames make it a 1816 engine with 1817 Coaches and an 1818 observation. 1935


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> Your picture shows the Lionel Jr motor clearly.
> 
> 
> I'll take the red set before TJ sees it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Yes it did come in all orange and yellow is rare. 1936. It is a Lionel JR . Does it have the motor.??? I am still looking there are a few variations.
> 
> 
> 
> The red are two 1674 Pullmans and a 1675 observation. They go to a Penssy Torpedo style engine numbe 1588? .I thought it would be 1688 but it looks like 1588. The red pieces are not listed in Doyles.
> 
> 
> Very Nice Find Ed, :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> The orange engine is the value for the set. Starts at 100 for very good condition. The cars start at 20 for very good.
> 
> 
> The Orange vestibule and frames make it a 1816 engine with 1817 Coaches and an 1818 observation. 1935



I thought that is what the red ones were. 1673/74/75 came with the windup engine? I do have the tender for that set but no engine. They say the 4 wheeled tender is hard to find.

The orange ones I don't have the engine.

Not bad for stuff someone tossed.

Thanks T.


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## T-Man

Yes the red ones came with a wind up 1588 engine and the 1588t four wheel tender. The page says Mechanical engine . The orange had a whistle too!!

I DIDN'T CATCH THE SPRING THING.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> Your picture shows the Lionel Jr motor clearly.
> 
> I'll take the red set before TJ sees it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dohhh! 6:49 PM EST, and I guess I'm 2 hours and 6 minutes too late! 

Ed, those are REALLY NICE dumpster saves. I see these listed on ebay quite frequently, so I don't think they're too rare, though they appear to be highly collectible.

Yes, they have a Lionel Jr. motor, but one with a couple of its own features: I believe a mount finial pin on the top of the motor that pokes through the loco shell for motor mounting, and, I'm not sure if they did or didn't come with an e-unit.

I saw a Lionel Jr motor for one of these (with the mount finial pin) go for sale on ebay a few weeks back for around $120 !!!

I hope you can clean these up and get 'em running again, Ed ... at first glance, they appear to be quite servicable.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser

*Ed's dumpster streamliners ... TJ's confused ???*



big ed said:


> I ran across an old box of odds and ends.
> These were saved from the dumps. my Bro in law rescued them.
> 
> This ones for the Tin Men.:thumbsup:
> 
> These have no number markings just says Lionel Lines on them.
> All metal no aluminum.
> 
> Any info on them? Lionel numbers?


OK, guys ... I'm confused. As I look at my Doyle prewar book, I see that the orange-and-silver streamliner is clearly a 1700E without its lead car. However, I'm confused as to what the red streamliner actually is ...

The 1700 cars each have 6 windows and 1 door. The tail (observation) car has a very rounded back face with several windows.

That's not the case with the red one ...

The red cars each have 7 windows and 2 (!!!) doors. The tail (assuming that's what I'm looking at, rather than the lead loco) here has a much more squared-off profile, with only 2 windows.

WHAT IS THAT RED STREAMLINER ???

T-Man ... you say it could be 1673/74/75, but I don't even see those listed in Doyle's book. 

Help! I can't sleep ... this is gonna drive me nuts!

TJ


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## T-Man

TJ. If you have the service disk, I find them by year. The red ones are pulled by the 1588 a spring torpedo engine. The number I read from the 1936 catalog and are not in the Doyle book.

The 1700 were all orange so I went with the 1817 engine etc, in Doyle.
Also the 1700 were part red and silver. That's what I came up with.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, T-Man!

Per a tip or two in thread this week, I just ordered one of the 1902-86 service / catalog discs on DVD ... looking forward to all of the goodies and info packed inside!

I looked through original hard-copy catalogs from 1934 and 1935 that I have, and didn't see anything there that exactly matched Ed's red streamliner. For my own interest, when I get the DVD, I'll have a look at the 1936 stuff to find the match that you indicate above.

Interestingly, my 1935 hard-copy catalog shows windup (clockwork) locos pulling streamliner cars that have only 4 wheels each, not 8.

I really appreciate you guys sharing info here ... I find it quite fun to delve into the past like this!

TJ


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## T-Man

They were "mechanical" engines page 42 or so in the 36 catalog. I may have the 34 they skip a few years in the index.

It was orange not red. Red was the other example he found online.

Interesting enough there were more sets with vestibules. The Yankee Clipper being the most common.

I like the red coaches, A good ole 1688 is just what it needs.


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## Stillakid

*Lionel 1588 on eBay......*

big ed, considering what all those "Treasures" cost you, why not splurge on this...................
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-1588-ENG...598622?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20b761e11e


View attachment 8015


View attachment 8016


View attachment 8017


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## tjcruiser

Nice. $102, huh? Fair, I guess, but I've seen them go for less on occassion.

I've been intrigued about the clockwork locos, but have yet to dive into one. Could be quite fun, though, to tinker with the mechanism. Some nice Ives clockwork locos out there, too.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed

I was watching that Jim.

I have the tender, I don't want to "buy" a wind up.

I rather hook a powered engine to them.

My bro in law told the guys at the dump to be on the lookout for trains since he is not there no more.:thumbsup: 
He still guzzles beer with them every day after they get off work. After 35 years some habits are hard to break.

Maybe one will come my way as the others did.


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## Big Ed

Here are some of his other saves.
First one is the 4 wheel tender that goes with the red passenger cars. They say that is hard to come by.
Though it looks to large to me to go with them.
I would like to know what the shiny banged up windup is. It has cast ends.
Somewhere there are 2 or 3 more passenger cars for that one.

I think the orange Pullman I got in a junk lot off e bay.

One mans junk is an others mans treasure.:thumbsup:
Plus I love the price......I feed him beer!:laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn

You are for sure the *Tin Man*!


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You are for sure the *Tin Man*!



I am more like the Junk man.:laugh:

TJ is the Tin Man!:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

OK, the *Tin Junk Man*.


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## tjcruiser

Hey ... Fred Sanford ...  ...

Is that shiny streamliner windup a Lionel, or might it be a Marx, Ives, etc.? Any I.D. at all?

Cheers,

TJ

Ohh ... and I see you have one of "my" little Lionel Jr. "Lionel Lines" tenders, too. Nice! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Hey ... Fred Sanford ...  ...
> 
> Is that shiny streamliner windup a Lionel, or might it be a Marx, Ives, etc.? Any I.D. at all?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ
> 
> Ohh ... and I see you have one of "my" little Lionel Jr. "Lionel Lines" tenders, too. Nice! :thumbsup::thumbsup:



I answered my own question,
It is a Hafner...found this,

Your engine appears to be in average condition. If the wind up motor is still running the current value is $ 75-90. These were made starting in 1937. this was the M1000 set and cam in several variations. The engine shown with port hole in the side is one of the more collectible units. 











I see that I am missing the back cast piece to the engine. Though it might be in another box...somewhere.


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## Big Ed

Here is the other windup,


*** Moderator Edit ...

Ed, I deleted your link ... it was flagged as a virus threat on my end ... I don't want anyone else to have any problems.

TJ


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## T-Man

Nice Haul Ed!, hang on to those dump bins!


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## Big Ed

big ed said:


> Here is the other windup,
> 
> 
> *** Moderator Edit ...
> 
> Ed, I deleted your link ... it was flagged as a virus threat on my end ... I don't want anyone else to have any problems.
> 
> TJ



Hmmm that was from an auction house. what virus was it?
there is something in this site my security last week was flagging a blacktool kit kept coming up.

I never click on the ads on this site, I think some of them are the cause. 

The next day it wasn't the blacktool kit but some other kit I forgot the name.

I think they ought to run a check on the site itself.
Since they added 300,000 ads and pop ups and all the other stuff.
I never click on them.


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## tjcruiser

big ed said:


> Hmmm that was from an auction house. what virus was it?


I didn't hang around to find out. When I clicked on the link, my security software (MS Security Essentials) started blinking red with a warning, and I shut down IE right away. It may not have been a virus, but some other threat/risk.

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> I didn't hang around to find out. When I clicked on the link, my security software (MS Security Essentials) started blinking red with a warning, and I shut down IE right away. It may not have been a virus, but some other threat/risk.
> 
> TJ



It got your blood pumping huh?

It was not an auction house it was this,


Worthopedia™ - Premier Price Guide
Value your items by searching millions of prices from past sales and auctions. 

Maybe it was a cookie?

When ever my security catches some thing I open it up and check out what it is catching. 
your just blink red and sounds a siren?:laugh:

it doesn't tell you what it is?


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## tjcruiser

I was too scared to look.  ... Seriously. The computer started doing some sort of a weird scan something-or-other ... but I don't think it was via my own security software, but rather via something on the weblink that was designed (in a devious way) to look like normal scan software. Whatever it was, it gave me the spooks. I shut it down, and got out of Dodge City...

TJ


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## T-Man

My avast detected a Trojan at the site. I remember that it was this thread and that link. Thanks! TJ!


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## gunrunnerjohn

There is a new thread running around, I just removed it from the third computer in a couple of weeks, *XP (or Vista/Win7) Security 2011*, it's a rogue AV application. I just got a call from someone else that appears to have the same one, so the count may be 4 before the week is out.


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## tjcruiser

Ed,

FYI ... I happened to see an ebay auction that offers a 1588 wind-up streamliner loco teamed with the same 3-car red streamliner passenger set that you have ... the one with the squarish back end ...

$321, 21 bids, and 30 minutes left to go in auction ... quite the collectible item ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-40s-LIONE...388184?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19c54dbb58

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Ed,
> 
> FYI ... I happened to see an ebay auction that offers a 1588 wind-up streamliner loco teamed with the same 3-car red streamliner passenger set that you have ... the one with the squarish back end ...
> 
> $321, 21 bids, and 30 minutes left to go in auction ... quite the collectible item ...
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/1930s-40s-LIONEL-UNUSUAL-1588-WIND-UP-TRAIN-SET-/110684388184?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19c54dbb58
> 
> TJ


Wow I am in Z land by the time you posted.

Been hitting the sack 700 pm this week, getting up at 2 am.

Got 2100 miles on this week and another 550 tomorrow.


Mine doesn't look like them, mine has the natural weathered look to them.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> Nice Haul Ed!, hang on to those dump bins!



A T man creation???

check it out,




http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-O-MONGREL-2-MOTOR-12-WHEEL-ENGINE-2-COMPLETE-/200613480215?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2eb57ec717


edit,

I am adding a description because soon the picture will be gone......for all whom might read this in the future.

LIONEL O MONGREL 2 MOTOR 12 WHEEL ENGINE 2 COMPLETE
CUSTOM BUILT ENGINE WITH 2 MOTOR UNITS PRESENT, BOTH ARE WIRED. SHELL IS THE FRONT AND BACK OF 2 ENGINES. MODIFICATION AT BOILER AND SMOKE STACK. NO FRONT OR REAR TRUCKS. COW CATCHER IS MISSING ONE STEP.

It was 2 O gauge steam engines morphed into 1.


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## tjcruiser

Funky ... looks like a Siamese Twin!


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Funky ... looks like a Siamese Twin!



Made by Dr Frankenstein.


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## T-Man

It does look like my work, but no. Since someone else did it, I will just have to connect three engines. Keep it on a strait track and use the reverse unit to run it.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> It does look like my work, but no. Since someone else did it, I will just have to connect three engines. Keep it on a strait track and use the reverse unit to run it.



Don't look nothing like what you would do.


It is the wrong color epoxy.:laugh::thumbsup:

T mans epoxy has a different look. That stuff looks like wood putty.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

big ed said:


> I am adding a description because soon the picture will be gone......for all whom might read this in the future.
> 
> LIONEL O MONGREL 2 MOTOR 12 WHEEL ENGINE 2 COMPLETE
> CUSTOM BUILT ENGINE WITH 2 MOTOR UNITS PRESENT, BOTH ARE WIRED. SHELL IS THE FRONT AND BACK OF 2 ENGINES. MODIFICATION AT BOILER AND SMOKE STACK. NO FRONT OR REAR TRUCKS. COW CATCHER IS MISSING ONE STEP.
> 
> It was 2 O gauge steam engines morphed into 1.


Be creative Ed, save the picture.

I'll bet that sucker needs O100 curves to run!


----------



## Big Ed

How did you save the picture?
I am used to just picking save image but that doesn't work with e bay stuff.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I cheated and used a screen capture program after opening the large picture in the eBay gallery. I personally use Snag-It here, but there are many screen capture utilities. You can even just hit PrtScr and then paste it into Windows Paint and trim it, no need for any extra programs.


----------



## T-Man

I printed that picture! 

I normally right click and save.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You can't right click and save on the eBay gallery, that's what Ed was talking about.


----------



## T-Man

I don't have that problem. Are you talking about the listing for each subject?
The little pictures? I still can save em. When the item lising is shown and the picture is on the left, Right click will not work until you click the picture and a new window apprears. You should be able to get any picture??????


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'm talking about when you expand them to get a decent sized picture. I know you can grab the little ones.


----------



## Big Ed

Someone asked me about his train set his mom dug out of the attic.
From the eighties? He estimated the age.

Anyone know the year they first made it and the worth?

Box is a little messed up but the trains are like new. (he says)

I asked for a set number but he did not supply one.hwell:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Railsounds in the 80's? Did they have it that early?


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Railsounds in the 80's? Did they have it that early?




Well, he estimated his set by his age. He is around 40 and he got it when he was 10 or 11. so that makes it in the 80's.
I am text messaging now, I asked him to look on the box for a number.


----------



## Big Ed

Lionel # 6-31914 set. any info?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, it was offered until 2002 according to Lionel.

http://www.lionel.com/products/find...ywords=&CategoryID=497&RailLineID=&CatalogId=


----------



## Big Ed

OK John you are right, I found that this was made in 2001- 2002 worth is $170 in mint shape.

I guess he was wrong on his age or when he got it?hwell:


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, it was offered until 2002 according to Lionel.
> 
> http://www.lionel.com/products/find...ywords=&CategoryID=497&RailLineID=&CatalogId=



Hmmm, the worth is only $170 in Greenberg's 2010 guide?

We were both posting at the same time.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

No, I was posting 16 minutes in front of you.


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> No, I was posting 16 minutes in front of you.


It took me that long to post it as I was researching at the same time and messaging him too.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

big ed said:


> It took me that long to post it as I was researching at the same time and messaging him too.


Sounds like a pretty thin excuse.  :laugh:


----------



## T-Man

Doyle has the 8602 from 1976 to 78 Tender was Denver and Rio Grande. Most of the the other 86oo's in close numbers were NY Central. Thoufg made much later in the 90's Rarity only a 2 and worth and worth 15 tops. SO the trainsounds must be worth about 120 on your set.

Dealers woud never sell that cheep I would say at least 30.

My trolley is an 8604, same shell I think from the early 90's.


----------



## Big Ed

OK another find.
$9 bucks plus $10 to ship, no one wanted it but me, no bidders.


It measures 27" long 6" wide 6" center height and 5" high at the end beam.

Who do you think made it?

Also it looks like someone had at one time hand laid rail on it. The 2 center anti-derailer rails (?) are wired? And you see the clips sticking out on the side? What were these for?

It looks like it was for 2 rail? Rail to rail is approximately 1 1/2".

S MEN?
I wonder if it was made to run American Flyer's? 
Do you think it is a American Flyer bridge?

A good find to add to my bridge collection.:thumbsup:

Just look at the patina on it!:thumbsup:


































What do you think paint it or just clear coat it?
Some spend a lot of time trying to make it looked "weathered" like this one.:laugh:


----------



## T-Man

I don't know any commercial bridge that was made with wires. The AF bridge was only 18 inches long and had a house or beacon on top.

Maybe Standard gage AF?

It's not Marx either. I have two of them.

It may be home made, but expertly done.

Maybe a HS sheet metal class??

A good find and a nice looking bridge!:thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> I don't know any commercial bridge that was made with wires. The AF bridge was only 18 inches long and had a house or beacon on top.
> 
> Maybe Standard gage AF?
> 
> It's not Marx either. I have two of them.
> 
> It may be home made, but expertly done.
> 
> Maybe a HS sheet metal class??
> 
> A good find and a nice looking bridge!:thumbsup:


Thanks for the reply T.

What is HS sheet metal class?
HS = Hobby store?

I have seen these bridges before. 
The bottom is open it used to have, on the bottom 2 metal strips at the ends and 2 near the middle. (side to side)
You can see where he took the 2 middle out and cut the 2 end strips and whoever did it added a board instead.
Must have sat outside some too. The board has a nice patina to it too.:thumbsup:

My question was more for what was run on the rail?
Whoever did it then added the rail himself. 2 rail.
See the center rails ( derailers?), I wonder why they were wired,what purpose did they serve? And those little squares sticking up off the timbers look like they were for electric too.

I am guessing S gauge?


----------



## T-Man

High School.
I had a class in junior high.
A bridge would be beter than a clothes hanger.


----------



## servoguy

With a rail separation of 2", it obviously was not built for O gauge. The two stands on the ties look like support for outside 3rd rail. I have no idea why the inside rails would be wired.


----------



## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> High School.
> I had a class in junior high.
> A bridge would be beter than a clothes hanger.


OH, 
I have seen these bridges before, but no one selling them actually knows who made them. 



servoguy said:


> With a rail separation of 2", it obviously was not built for O gauge. The two stands on the ties look like support for outside 3rd rail. I have no idea why the inside rails would be wired.


It is a 1 1/2" separation.
Those are de-railers I guess.
I never saw any wired like that.


----------



## T-Man

The extra rails look like a UCS uncoupler or actuator. Something the shoe on the truck can connect too.


----------



## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> The extra rails look like a UCS uncoupler or actuator. Something the shoe on the truck can connect too.




I guess it will remain a mystery.

Maybe someday someone will come upon this post and know what is was for.

I was thinking S but I guess not.
What is the distance between the rails for S track?


----------



## servoguy

The extra rails look like rails the real RRs add to bridges to strengthen the bridge.
BB


----------



## Big Ed

OK I got another bridge. 

No markings on it, 2 red lights on top.
26 1/2" long, 5 1/2" wide, 5" to the bottom of the arch

I couldn't resist.

Anyone know the manufacturer?
Anyone ever see one like this?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Don't know who made it, but it needs paint!


----------



## Artieiii

Hmm never saw one of those. I am guessing the red lights come on when your cookies are done LOL. Sorry for the sarcasm. Maybe it's scratch built. 
-Art


----------



## tjcruiser

Ed,

Nice suspension bridge. No clue as to mfr.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Artieiii said:


> Hmm never saw one of those. I am guessing the red lights come on when your cookies are done LOL. Sorry for the sarcasm. Maybe it's scratch built.
> -Art



It is kind of funny the way they mounted the lights.

I am going to add something to them. 
Don't know what yet.

I never saw any like these for sale, maybe it is home made?

Paint John? Alien green?

What about the great patina it has?


----------



## jreid

Didnt MArx market something like that?


----------



## Big Ed

Was doing a little organizing and came across this motor in a parts lot box.

It runs! 

What did it come off?
Anyone know?

Notice the custom cutting someone did on the wheels, both sides.


----------



## T-Man

That is an older Lionel Scout. 1654 -4-2 Columbia Loco. 1946 Same e unit as the 221 .

Olsen link


----------



## tjcruiser

Ed,

Fuzzy recollection guess, but I'm thinking prewar 2nd-generation style 1688 streamliner. (My early-generation 1688's have the Lionel Jr. style motor.) Late 1930's, I think.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> That is an older Lionel Scout. 1654 -4-2 Columbia Loco. 1946 Same e unit as the 221 .
> 
> Olsen link





tjcruiser said:


> Ed,
> 
> Fuzzy recollection guess, but I'm thinking prewar 2nd-generation style 1688 streamliner. (My early-generation 1688's have the Lionel Jr. style motor.) Late 1930's, I think.
> 
> TJ



Thanks
I wonder why they cut the wheels?

I wonder if somehow I can make a custom track car out of it?

Check out a bunch of different ones?
They have pictures of ones I never saw.:thumbsup:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/10/cool-road-rail-vehicles.html


----------



## T-Man

The rods were pinned in. So they cut to remove them?


----------



## Big Ed

I found these poles. 
I never saw anything like this before, I think they are prewar.

I placed one backwards so you can see the back, they are all tin they have no markings anywhere. The back of the upright part of the pole is opened.

Anyone ever see these before?
The manufacturer who made them?
What do you think?

They are around 7" high. And were said to have come off an old 1940's Lionel train set. But like I said there are no markings on them.

I thought they were maybe an interesting piece of model train history to have in my collection. They are old.
And I never saw any like these before.
Whoever had them had a real thin copper wire stringing them together as the power lines.


----------



## tjcruiser

Those are nice, Ed ... I agree ... looks prewar to me. Not Lionel, as far as I know, but maybe Ives? The base (bottom square, then cube plinth) looks very similar to those on Lionel 069 signal, 068 signal, and 62 semaphore.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Those are nice, Ed ... I agree ... looks prewar to me. Not Lionel, as far as I know, but maybe Ives? The base (bottom square, then cube plinth) looks very similar to those on Lionel 069 signal, 068 signal, and 62 semaphore.
> 
> TJ


A little BUMP.

He listed as coming off a 1940's train layout that was his Grand dads.
I think prewar, but I have never seen any and I been searching all the RR makers. No markings anywhere. They are kind of cool looking on the layout I wish he had a dozen more.

One note is that they don't look homemade, someone, somewhere, somehow, at one time produced/sold these.

They would fit right in on a prewar layout, but look good on mine too.:thumbsup:

I was thinking Marx maybe?


----------



## tjcruiser

Did you look at pics of the bases of the Lionel signals from my post above? So very similar ... that makes me think Ives for yours ... with a merging of tooling, perhaps, after Lionel bought out Ives and merged equipment, tooling.

Just a theory, anyway ...

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Maybe I am going to keep my eyes open for more.
But till now I never seen poles like theses.
And in all my searches I can't find a single one.hwell:


----------



## tjcruiser

I'll certainly keep my eyes open too, Ed. They really are nice looking ... in a cool old-school way!

TJ


----------



## T-Man

ED, those stand bases are Lionel. The same used in the 145 Gateman Except the base is inside the Platform just look at my signs.










The closest is the telegraph pole number 60. except you have a double pole. Orange was an early color starting in 1926.


----------



## Big Ed

They sure look like the same base.

I wonder why I can't find anything, anywhere, a picture or listing, something?

Got to hit the sack.
Tanks T man.

What does your base measure?

I will check back tomorrow.


----------



## eljefe

I found several examples of these on auction sites, but no one seems to agree on the manufacturer.

This one says American Flyer. However, I doubt it since AF pieces seem to have circular bases.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5591563

This one says Lionel.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9150958

Lionel also had other telegraph posts with a similar base but with different post style that probably came later (#60).

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/lionel-prewar-60-telegraph-posts-114343414

This one shows a very similar but not quite identical telegraph associated with Ives.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6464979

Here is an auction for a Lionel set that includes the same telegraphs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Jr-1...-Cars-Tender-6-Signs-Gate-Track-/130793616974


----------



## T-Man

Two inches by two inches with a 5/8ths base.


----------



## Big Ed

eljefe
Thanks I could not find any.

Live auctioneers go with either to be safe, their just like a weather report.

Thanks T I will measure mine.

I will say prewar Lionel until proven otherwise.


----------



## eljefe

Based on all I've seen, I agree with TJ that they are most likely Lionel and possibly inherited from Ives.


----------



## tjcruiser

T, Elj -- nice research info above, guys ... good detective work!

Only theories at this point, but good ones!

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Hey ED I found some more! I saw two or three at an antique shop. Didn't have a camera. They are the same size as the sign post.


----------



## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> Hey ED I found some more! I saw two or three at an antique shop. Didn't have a camera. They are the same size as the sign post.


I am guessing Lionel prewar.


----------



## Big Ed

Ed is finally starting to clean up and organize his trains. It might take a few years but there is work in progress.

I went out and bought 4 storage shelves to put my trains on, (6' H x 3' W x 18" deep) mainly I have all my Lionel's in big boxes on pallets, so when I want to use something I have to dig through the boxes. So I bought the shelves to stock items on in just their original boxes, so when I go to use them I don't have to dig through boxes to find them.

Anyway, I found a couple of old bottles.
Here is one,

























The only bottle I can find in a search like it is this one, but it says Colber smoke on it.









How about some of you Old Timers? 
Ever see any of these in your youth?
Anyone ever hear of Loco-Smoke Inc., Brooklyn, NY?
My bottle has a dropper on it but the squeeze top is gone from age it still has the tube inside and a few drops of liquid.

This was in an old HO junk box I came across. I guessamate it is from the 50's?

I got a spot on my shelf for it, unless anyone wants to give me a $100 bucks for it.:thumbsup:
Maybe the Pickers would?

Anyone ever see one like this?
Can a search specialist find some info on the company or bottle?


----------



## Big Ed

I guess no one ever saw the Loco-fluid?
Over a 100 lookers.
I guess my price just went up to $200 bucks.

OK, How about this one?
Still has about a half a bottle left.


----------



## tjcruiser

I think that's 150-proof moonshine with a fancy label! 

Not much I can add on the smoke fluid ...never heard of that company before.

TJ


----------



## Handyandy

Judging by the Lionel General set in the background you must be buying that stuff in three litre bottles!!! :laugh:


----------



## Kwikster

I'd never heard of Colber either, not much information on them. I did find this:
"COLBER
Founders Antony Collett and William Burke initially started in the appliance business in New York, NY, and later began repairing trains as a Lionel service station. In 1946 Trains became their primary business as they became the Train Center of America, and grew to be the largest Lionel distributor in the East. Unable to stock trains fast enough to meet demand, they began making low price versions of Lionel accessories in 1948 as Colber Manufacturing Company. Their versions included beacon and floodlight towers, watchman's shanty, street lights, and wig-wag signal.

Colber received a stern warning from Lionel concerning their packaging in 1950, concerning that it was a near copy of Lionel's, which led to its modification. During 1951-54 Colber supplied Flyer with several accessories in addition to its own line by using different nameplates and plastic colors. By 1954 Flyer no longer needed Colber's help and the toy train market was shrinking so Colber decided to leave the market. They sold their dies to Marx, who primarily wanted them out of the market, and switched to electronic components, which it still makes today. "

http://www.spikesys.com/Modelrr/faq1.html Last updated in 2002 sadly.

Carl


----------



## tjcruiser

Nice historical info, Carl.

I hadn't seen that link/site before. Quite a bit of helpful knowledge there.

TJ


----------



## eljefe

Nothing turned up on the Loco-Smoke but Life-Like Products was easy to find:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Like


----------



## Kwikster

Thanks for the fix TJ. Musta been having a "senior" moment :laugh: I hadn't heard of Corbel until this, very little information on them.

Carl


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> I think that's 150-proof moonshine with a fancy label!
> 
> Not much I can add on the smoke fluid ...never heard of that company before.
> 
> TJ


I am running an analysis on it.



Handyandy said:


> Judging by the Lionel General set in the background you must be buying that stuff in three litre bottles!!! :laugh:


That is the new Hallmarks ornaments.



Kwikster said:


> I'd never heard of Colber either, not much information on them. I did find this:
> "COLBER
> Founders Antony Collett and William Burke initially started in the appliance business in New York, NY, and later began repairing trains as a Lionel service station. In 1946 Trains became their primary business as they became the Train Center of America, and grew to be the largest Lionel distributor in the East. Unable to stock trains fast enough to meet demand, they began making low price versions of Lionel accessories in 1948 as Colber Manufacturing Company. Their versions included beacon and floodlight towers, watchman's shanty, street lights, and wig-wag signal.
> 
> Colber received a stern warning from Lionel concerning their packaging in 1950, concerning that it was a near copy of Lionel's, which led to its modification. During 1951-54 Colber supplied Flyer with several accessories in addition to its own line by using different nameplates and plastic colors. By 1954 Flyer no longer needed Colber's help and the toy train market was shrinking so Colber decided to leave the market. They sold their dies to Marx, who primarily wanted them out of the market, and switched to electronic components, which it still makes today. "
> 
> http://www.spikesys.com/Modelrr/faq1.html Last updated in 2002 sadly.
> 
> Carl


Thanks Carl we had a discussion on Colber here,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8263



eljefe said:


> Nothing turned up on the Loco-Smoke but Life-Like Products was easy to find:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Like


Thanks,
I know about Life like, I was looking for a year on the bottles, I think they look like they would be from the 50's.

I though someone might recognize them.


----------



## sjm9911

Colber corp as there lable says was in irvington nj the next town over from me. I belive lionel had factories in newark and hillside the two towns surrounding irvington. Just thought it was intresting after reading that they were copying lionel stuff and the factories were so close.


----------



## Big Ed

All Brass, what do you think 3 rail or two rail?

Do I see one center rail pickup? If that is what it is.


----------



## sjm9911

Cool looking Ed, and it has your name too!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks like it has one powered truck, but I have no idea what it's called.


----------



## Big Ed

I was watching it sit on e bay with a $45 bid for a while.

It said it was a O Gauge Brass Electric Locomotive #ED144.
It ran forward and reverse.

I am guessing it was 3 rail by the pickup on the bottom.
It went for $162.50 at the last second.

Most of the brass trains even junk goes for a good buck.
I thought that would be interesting to own but my pocketbook won't open wide enough.


----------



## sjm9911

I wanted to see if any one knew who made this tunnel? I got it cheap and repainted it( I did not strip it just a light sanding and paint) it looks old and I was just curious if anyone knew anything about it.


----------



## sjm9911

Allright worse pictures, but smaller!


----------



## Big Ed

No offence, but it sort of looks like a mail box made into a tunnel.
Maybe homemade? 
I never saw one that looked like that before.

You should move the light towards the middle?
That sort of looks like a Lionel house light fixture.


----------



## sjm9911

Leave my, mailbox/ tunnel alone!. The light was originally supposed to go behind the tunnel as a back light. I put it there temporarily and never moved it. I belive the tunnel thing is copper or brass originally. It could be home made as I never saw one before. I paid 5.50$ shipped on the bay.
6 1/2 inches high 9 1/2 inches long. The rivets look machine made, but you never know. It could be a cut down mailbox.


----------



## Big Ed

sjm9911 said:


> Leave my, mailbox/ tunnel alone!. The light was originally supposed to go behind the tunnel as a back light. I put it there temporarily and never moved it. I belive the tunnel thing is copper or brass originally. It could be home made as I never saw one before. I paid 5.50$ shipped on the bay.
> 6 1/2 inches high 9 1/2 inches long. The rivets look machine made, but you never know. It could be a cut down mailbox.


It is worth more then that in a scrap price if it is copper or brass.
It doesn't look bad, I think it is homemade but I could be wrong.

Did you add the light? 
Is that an old Lionel house light fixture?


----------



## sjm9911

I added the light, I bought a few dozen of those house light things, for back lighting etc.. I also did the sharpie subway tile.


----------



## Big Ed

OK, Lionel made some from the 50's, I thought that those looked too new.

Here are some, they were used in Plasticville buildings.


----------



## sjm9911

Yea, I wanted the porcelain ones but they were too much scratch.


----------



## Big Ed

I won these for $2.24 & $4.47 to ship.
They were listed as "1920's Louis Marx train lead toy 1-1/2" road signs" HO scale.

Well I knew that they were not HO scale but closer to O.
They are all lead and old, anyone know if they would be Marx? Think they are from the 20's?

An interesting part to these are that they came from the estate of the late Van Patrick, play-by-play announcer for the NFL Detroit Lions.

Maybe some of you guys out that way know of him?
I found a wiki on Van, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Patrick


----------



## sjm9911

Ed, I don't have any but have seen them once or twice but never more then one or two. Never the whole set(maybe?). Good price, they are nice looking.


----------



## Big Ed

sjm9911 said:


> Ed, I don't have any but have seen them once or twice but never more then one or two. Never the whole set(maybe?). Good price, they are nice looking.


I picked these up a couple of weeks ago $3.99 + $5.85 to ship. $9.84 total. 









These are some kind of metal too, I know the others are lead I don't know about these. These have a square base. These signs might be die cast. 
The large based crossing sign I think is a Lionel 301, there are 2 lots of 6 each listed as Lionel 301 signs. He is asking $29.99 + $5.60 to ship. These are more to scale for O. I am unwilling to pay that price.

This seller, I have bought from him before.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131113002706?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I am wondering on how old the lead signs are, I guess no one knows.


----------



## sjm9911

Yea ed, much different. I had lead figures on my family's layout(if you could call it that) as a kid. I'm thinking 1920-1935. Just a gustamite. I'll ask some people in the next few days. They might know. Sad part is, living in this area, so close to where the older stuff was made. I talk to people now all the time and when I mention trains there father or grandfather worked for Lionel. They tell me You should have seen the stuff before we sold it after he died. They used to take all the misprints, etc home. Very sad. A few still have some rarer stuff. They have yet to let me see it, even though it's boxed up in an attic, they think. They don't even know where they stored it!


----------



## Big Ed

I have some old lead figures too. 
I like the old metal/lead RR signs better then the plastic ones.

Tell them to dig out what they got, you might find some old hidden treasure among them.
Don't get too excited when you see something nice. 
Just act like, hmm nice, would you take a few bucks for them. 

Play it like Cool Hand Luke would. :smokin:

I think the reason I got the old lead signs was that it was listed in HO scale, I knew they were O scale.
No one was bidding against me.


----------



## larry g

Very cool looking car


----------



## larry g

(did not mean to comment here- sorry)


----------



## Big Ed

larry g said:


> (did not mean to comment here- sorry)


Aw, you got me all excited I thought you knew something about the signs. 

No problem Larry, if anything you bumped the thread.:smokin:
When I post something I really don't expect answers anyway. :dunno:

I am used to it here. hwell:


----------



## Big Ed

I doubt it but maybe?

I took my monthly trip to the hobby store to pickup a few things and to see if anyone brought in any good "junk". 
I picked up a few items I needed and as always I have to walk around and look at everything. O HO N it doesn't matter.
The last shelf by the checkout counter had this laying on it.

I took 3 pictures on my phone but only one took? I never take pictures on my phone.
I asked him how much? I offered $20 bucks, but he said the guy who owns it just wants to ID it for now.

I never saw one before, and the hobby shop has been there since the middle 30's. Most who work there have been around trains for a very long time.

No one could ID it.

How about it? Anyone know?
The only markings on it is MADE IN GERMANY.
Tell me what you think. It is tin. To me it looks like Standard gauge? But I guess it could be O?
Thanks in advance.









The red arrow points to the bell clanger, I forgot to put it back up by the bell after I examined it.
The blue arrow points to a crank that works the signal on the side and makes the clapper ring the bell.


Man....I would like a 5 min FREE shopping trip in the old hobby shop! 
Back in the parts room too!:thumbsup:

Teledoc......no whistle parts to be found there, though he said his repair guy might have some at his shop.


----------



## teledoc

Big Ed, The Bloodhound is on the trail, and has the scent picked out......Going back to post #150, The bases on those signs are round, and not squared off, so that makes them Prewar #308 signs, Type III. The 308 set came in three versions. Ver. I painted white, black letters, with the bases painted green, and artificial grass added. Ver. II white, black letters, rectangular bases. Ver. III same but round bases. All made die cast, never lead. The Prewar's were offered in 1940-41, and reissued after the War for short period of time.

The most recent post with the full mix of signs is both Prewar and Postwar, but confused with checking both books with what appear as Prewar (Round) and having signage that only was offered in Postwar, with different lettering. The Postwar came in a 309 set box. Any value to either is having the original box, in excellent condition, but if they are being used on a layout, value doesn't matter (Only for Collectors)

Also, I think it was around Post #109 with the motor that resembles a 1654 motor. It's not a 1654 Postwar motor. It is the THIRD version motor that was used in the 1688 torpedo. TJ's comment was second version, but it is actually third version. Someone ground off the hubs from the one set of wheels, which is the telltale that it is the 1688 "plastic" motor. Plastic meaning the collector assembly was slotted and screwed into the bottom of the motor.

Everyone thinks that the 1688/1688E only had two different motors, but it actually had three, and ironically, TJ does own the 2nd version. I can blow your head off with the Lionel Loewy Torpedo shell, and motors. I am actually writing it all up, to list the variations. The body or shell was used for the 1588 wind up, 1688/1688E and the 1668/1668E locos. I have come up (all three loco castings) with 13 variations, and possibly a 14th.:smokin:


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## Big Ed

OK Thanks. I am not worried about the value or having a box. 
I look for these die cast or lead things and will buy them if the price is right. I buy them just for my enjoyment.
I like the old Marx tin RR signs too, I don't believe what some bid on those!:goofball:

I have lost many of auctions as I am unwilling to pay what some of the crazies do.

So the ones on the #150 post, mine have no green just what you see.
What version do you think?

All the signs in both pictures are metal/lead?/pewter whatever.
I thought they made some of the early ones in lead....like the figures you can get.
I have a few of those too, I don't think I ever showed them here.


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## teledoc

Ed, The round base would be Prewar version III, by Doyle's book. The signs are die cast, and Lionel didn't make lead signs, ever. As I have been doing a lot of research with the Torpedo shells, and also the die cast process, I have found some very interesting things,(all of which will be added to my Roll-a-Dex I call my brain. 

Lionel produced stamped steel trains, plated with tin, from their first train (as other manufacturers did the same), hence the name "Tinplate". Die casting started near the end of the 1920's, using a zinc alloy. The alloy became known as ZAMAK or ZAMAC, and the most common used was ZAMAK-3. One company New Jersey Zinc Company, Sussex, N.J., started to produce these alloys, in 1929. Lionel, being in Livingston, N.J., by this time, wanted to try and produce trains with greater detail, and the only way was by high pressure injection molding. Lionel started to line up a whole new series, using these methods, and started Die Cast molded shells in 1936 inventory.
The dreaded "Zinc Pest" was from impure alloys, which is what you see on a lot of real old die cast. Another contributing factor to Zinc Pest was humidity. So Lionel only used ZAMAK/ZAMAC for die casting, and never used lead for any production items. If it is lead, it was made by someone else.

ZAMAK is Zinc, Aluminum, Magnesium, & Kupfer (German word for copper), and ZAMAC is same but all English translation, with last letter being Copper. 

I have to go out for a few hours, but if you want to know more about what I have been coming up with, just ask...I am amazing myself with what I have been finding. The Roll-A-Dex reference earlier, is from my kids, when they were younger....You must have a Roll-A-Dex full of useless information running around in your head.....If we played Trivial Pursuit, I have played 6 against one... namely me being the one. ROFLMAO!!!!


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## Big Ed

Thanks, I never knew that. 
Though they say ALL the first trains that they made (the pull trains) were made of lead.

Where are you finding all the info like this?


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## teledoc

Ed, I have become fixated with the 1688E, and especially the one with the forward open windows. I read an article on the CTT forum, about these rare versions. I had to see if I could actually find one, because the article mentioned they don't know how many or few that were made, compared to what they refer to as common issued 1688's. I now own 3 of the open window versions, but while searching eBay mostly, I kept seeing little noticeable differences. I have since bought a few more shells, with some of the differences, to have side by side comparisons. I also noticed that the 1668E looked the same, but was a 2-6-2 arrangement, vs. the 2-4-2 of the 1688E. In fact, after looking through my books, they used the torpedo shell of the 027 locos on the 1588 wind up, 1688E, and the 1668E. They all came from the original mold.

I bought more books dealing with Prewar, to help reference and understand the many variations. No single book has every single variation mentioned, so I had to flip, book by book. That lead me to start searching Google/Bing and read the history of Lionel, Ives, & A/Flyer. I also found a TCA site that lists all the more well known manufacturers, and read what I needed from Lionel, Ives, and American Flyer. The reading was very interesting, to the point of also understanding Lionel's transition from "Tinplate" to Die Casting. All the U.S. Makers made tinplate from their first train until 1935. Lionel wanted to have trains with more detail, and die casting, as a new process was the only way to accomplish it. 1936 was the year that Lionel started making die cast bodies, with finer details, and another New Jesey company (New Jersey Zinc Company) was Lionel's supplier. The die casting that they used was a zinc alloy, with the ZAMAK/ZAMAC-3 being the choice. I explained the ZAMAK in previous post.

The 1688/1688E has a minimum of 8, & possible 9 variations in the body. The 1588 wind up has two known variations, and the 1668/1668E has 3 variations. This lone casting, with various mods throughout the years produced, makes it the most used and changed of anything that Lionel made. I am bidding on another body as of today, to add to what I have. I got it really bad!!!!!!!!! Addiction to 1688/1588/1668 torpedo.

As far as the comment of LEAD trains, I haven't found any evidence at all to say that Lionel ever made a train of LEAD. They were either tinplate or die cast. Other makers probably did use lead, but not Lionel. Tinplate is actually steel, plated with tin, and the bodies were stamped to make each different shaped shell.


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## teledoc

*Lionel Lead Items*

To answer the question of anything that Lionel made from lead, is that the only item found that was sold, were the 550 Set of figures, and each separate character of 551 through 556 figures. They were NOT made by Lionel, but were made in England by John Hill Co, in Islington, England, and made of cast lead, and painted. The company was also known as Johillco. Nothing else was ever offered by Lionel that was made of lead. The road signs from the early 1940's that are metal, are all die cast products. Some people often refer to this type of die cast as "Pot Metal", but is actually the Zinc Alloy that many toy makers used.

If you want to learn about this stuff, just start searching, and reading what is published. It provides some really interesting reading, and if it is found on the internet, follow the links provided. You soon learn the production of model trains, and all the changes that took place over the years.


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## Don F

Did you contact the seller for info? Are the wheels scale or fast angle flanges? It's most likely a kit, could even be Atlas from the 70's. 
Don


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## CW Burfle

Since the subject of ZAMAC has been raised, I thought some folks might find the web page I've linked below to be of interest. It describes different formulas and characteristics of ZAMAC.

ZAMAC alloys


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## Ricky Tanner

CW Burfle said:


> Since the subject of ZAMAC has been raised, I thought some folks might find the web page I've linked below to be of interest. It describes different formulas and characteristics of ZAMAC.
> 
> ZAMAC alloys


That's good information CW. As you know,I've tried to explain this many times on the other (OGR) forum. Good to see you here and welcome. I'm known as "Boomer" over there.


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## teledoc

CW, Excellent link to add in regard to ZAMAC. I'm the type of person that likes to delve into the WHY'S and WHEREFORE's of this amazing hobby. It is the older trains that prove to be the most interesting, as you see all the subtle changes that Lionel made, to keep something popular. Thanks for adding the link.


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## Big Ed

When I got my N scale off my Nephew he added a lot of other things. Ed's N Scale

These were in with them, anyone know what they are made for?
I just found them when opening some boxes looking for something.


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## sjm9911

They almost look like jewler pliers, to open rings. Or chains.


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## MichaelE

They are. MicroMark sells a pair of those. I have a cheap pair from Chinamart for looping catenary wire before soldering to the registration arms.


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## Old_Hobo

Nice try, but those pliers are made by Kadee (#237) for bending/adjusting the coupler “hoses” on Kadee couplers....


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## Big Ed

Old_Hobo said:


> Nice try, but those pliers are made by Kadee (#237) for bending/adjusting the coupler “hoses” on Kadee couplers....
> 
> View attachment 552862


Thank you, yep they are it.
Much easier and better then using a needle nose plier.
Into my train tools it will go.


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## Big Ed

MichaelE said:


> They are. MicroMark sells a pair of those. I have a cheap pair from Chinamart for looping catenary wire before soldering to the registration arms.


Looks like you found another use for them.


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## Big Ed

sjm9911 said:


> They almost look like jewler pliers, to open rings. Or chains.


I never worked on jewelry, but maybe they would come in handy?
I don't know.


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## Old_Hobo

As with most tools, I guess there is always another use for them, other than their intended.....


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## Big Ed

Old_Hobo said:


> As with most tools, I guess there is always another use for them, other than their intended.....


Might be good for pulling a tooth too.


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## Old_Hobo

Could save a bundle in dentist fees!


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