# The cost of new stuff



## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm looking through my latest issue of MR which is July. Strange that,it's still only May. Oh well.
I am flabergasted at the prices of the new locos,cars and structures that are advertised in this issue. Locos start at $150 and most are at $180 and that's with out DCC. With DCC they are starting at $250. The Blue Ridge Coal Company is $130 plus $13 shipping. A gondola car is $45 plus $7 shipping. Walthers Penn passenger cars are $65 each.These are all HO. A Z scale gondola is $35 and finally the Walthers Santa Fe El Capitan in HO,the standard dc F-7A and B are $330 EACH. The cars are $70 to $80 each car.
How the heck is anybody suppose to get started in this hobby anymore?
Sleazebay looks better and better everyday. Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Try pricing the new Legacy or MTH PS3 stuff for O-scale!


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

"O"ooooooooooo no. Not me. I can hardly afford the trains I have and I bought them thirty years ago. Ha!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I have been amazed over and over again when I look back at an old magazine I have from back in 2002-3 and the engines that are DCC ready are sitting around 60-90 dollars and I look at the prices online (as they are always cheaper then in store or a magazine) and a DCC ready engine is sitting around 140. A DCC equipped sits around 180-200 and those sound engines sit right around 250 and for the BLI and similar around 300-350. I have already adjusted to this "inflation" and while i still buy trains I buy maybe one or two engines at a time maybe twice a year. As for the rolling stock I don't really buy more then 5 cars at most with a car not even fully detailed running around 30 dollars. I must say my biggest savior has been Ebay. I have gotten many a DCC and DCC & Sound engines off of there for cheap. Like my steam engines i got for 66 dollars and 120 dollars one with DCC and one with DCC & sound. Another example is my two Atlas QSI sound equipped engines both emensly detailed. My MP15DC costing me 180 I think and my dash8 something running me only 120 dollars. Another great place to avoid these insane prices is train shows. I have bought a lot of rolling stock for around 5 dollars thier. I have also bought a good amount of engines from their for cheap as well. So what if its not new, if it runs good and looks good to me I am fine with it. The only new things I spend money on would be engines or some of the really nice "I must have this now!" train cars.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

I haven't bought new in years...I always pointed out to my fellow club members that I would be able to buy their latest toy 10 years from now from the junk box at a train show. It's amazing how close to true that is as I lovingly fondle my Atlas Master Model Dash 8 with dual mode DCC on board that I got for $10 NIB...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm with Shay and the other trash-day hunters on this one. The majority of my growing O collection are old junkers I bought on ebay $25 locos, $50 sets, and the like. A little elbow grease, some t.l.c., and a few extra bucks for parts, and most of them look and run quite nicely.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

While most of the time I'm a bottom feeder on used stuff. Just got these 7 cars for $20.50 off ebay today... 










...but every once in a while I'll come up to the surface to strike at something if it's really high quality. And since it's always small and never DCC, the prices never get out of hand.

(begin rant... )

Tha *value* of trains is *not* going up...

...the *value* of the dollars used to buy trains is going *down*.

My favorite example is that in 1913 you could buy a Colt 1911 for one ounce of gold ($20)... and today you can buy a Colt 1911 for one ounce of gold ($1,500).

What is the *only* variable in this equation... the *value* of the dollar.

Anyone who can change how they think about money will never get hammered by currency devaluations. On the other hand... whoever is foolish enough to use dollars as their store of wealth, which are only backed by an unproductive bankrupt deadbeat debtor bureaucracy, they're getting exactly what they deserve.

(end of rant... )

Greg


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

(Begin bigger rant )
what you say makes a good bit of sense but there is also some fallacy in it as well. A standard DC engine used to cost at most 40 dollars and yes with the value of the dollar going down and inflation it would make it cost more to buy but with the introduction of DCC and DCC& Sound the prices to make it rises a good bit compared to if it was just a DC engine. Now one thing that so many people overlook in the price of the sound engines is that those sounds must be recorded in real life. That means sending a crew of about 5 out to a railyard or museum and doing all the recording. Now for the Dash8-9 and SD60-70 most of thsoe are only found on Class 1's or straight from GM or GE. QSI, Soundtraxx, etc have to pay said company's a rather large sum of money just to be allowed to use those engine and operateing sounds in their decoders and require a good bit of track and situations to do it. That raises the cost up even more. Then thier is the millions spent on development and research for it. The actuall production of the decoders cost fairly little but all that go's into it before hand costs a lot which is why the sound engines and the DCC engines have costed so much more. Now with the most recent price increase in that magazine i would have to say that is solley inflation and the dollar value falling. I understand why the new DCC engine and the ones with sound cost so much more then a simple DC engine. not as much money and research has to be put into them as the new age technology. Someday these DCC and Sound engine will be a lot cheap because the technology will have been perfected. Some engines cost more then others even if they seem compareable in every aspect and this is because a lot more research has to be put into say finding a suitable engine to make the same sounds as a non existent G3 Pacific. So their are two factors to this thread.
(end rant )

Shay how on earth did you get a DCC equipped atlas master for ten dollars. I had to pay around 70ish for mine at a train show just last year and it is exactly as you described with the little 8-pin plug you have to move to go from DC to DCC. Of course mine was custom weathered but it really didn't look like a 50 dollar weathering job. He only had some dirt on the front and sides. Last time I pay for an Atlas Master engine for 70 if the only difference between that and a ten dollar one is a little bit of weathering. Heck I could have had a fleet of 7 engines for the price of ten if it really was just the weathering that or the train show I go to has some crazy un-knowing of price vendors.
(End of rant 2)


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## jzrouterman (Nov 27, 2010)

My RANT!!  I will agree that because of the dollar falling, the prices are going up. But at the same time, I DON'T have to completely contend with it, not on everything. Like track nails. I can buy the same size nail at Lowes for a fraction of what they'll want at a hobbyshop or on line. Sure, the ones sold at a hobbyshop are black. My track is not black, so I'd have to paint the nails anyway, no matter where I bought them at. And painting only takes about five minutes. So... I'll get them at Lowes and save. 

Same way with the metal they put on railcars for weights. You can buy this same metal at the same width as what they sell in a small bag from a hobby shop at either Home Depot, Lowes and Ace Hardware. The only difference is that the ones at these places are sold in four foot lengths. But it's nothing that a metal cutting blade on a radial saw can't handle. And it costs a heck of a lot less. 

These are just two examples. But a little savings here, and a little savings there add up. Besides the fact that the dollar is falling, model railroading merchandise has a real supply and demand issue with a lot of it. A good example of this is, look at the Athearn "plain blue" Santa FE GP35. It lists for $99.98. The Athearn "war bonnet" Santa Fe GP38-2 lists for $79.98. One would think that because the GP38 is bigger, has a better drive train than does the GP35, and that painting on a war bonnet would use extra paint, that the GP38 would cost more. But it's just the opposite. Why? Supply and demand. More people want the GP35 as do the GP38. So they raise the price and make money. 

I mean, have you noticed when the fuel prices go up, the cost of groceries goes up with it? You say it's because it cost more to ship with higher fuel prices. Really? Then why when the fuel prices go back down, the grocery prices stay up? End of my rant. Sorry if I hijacked this thread a little. I didn't mean to.

Routerman


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

jzrouterman said:


> I mean, have you noticed when the fuel prices go up, the cost of groceries goes up with it? You say it's because it cost more to ship with higher fuel prices. Really? Then why when the fuel prices go back down, the grocery prices stay up?


I believe that other factors besides the cost of fuel also affect the price of food... like weather's devastating effect on crops.

There is a simple solution to all of this... 

Simply *own* your own business production pipeline so that you are able to operate on *both* sides of the ledger at the *same* time. 

That way your earnings will always retain *parity* with your expenditures...

...and you will *float* on the rising tide of inflation instead of *drowning* in it.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Some really good observations here and I hadn't thought about the devaluation of the dollar. Still I just paid $150 for an Atlas plain Jane dash 8 and it's not even at the factory to be shipped yet. It's the new engine with the Seminole Gulf livery that I just had to have because that's the local railroad around here and nobody has ever modeled it before. It should look great with my $20 engines that will surround it.
You would think that somebody in this country could make these engines better than the Japs and not have to pay all the shipping but that doesn't seem to be the case. These model trains all come from foreign countries and here we are with rampant unemployment and not making much of anything here anymore. On the other hand if we didn't buy this stuff the mfg's would have to lower the prices or go out of business. It seems to be a vicious circle.
Wonder where it will all end? Pete


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

gc53dfgc said:


> Shay how on earth did you get a DCC equipped atlas master for ten dollars. I had to pay around 70ish for mine at a train show just last year and it is exactly as you described with the little 8-pin plug you have to move to go from DC to DCC. Of course mine was custom weathered but it really didn't look like a 50 dollar weathering job. He only had some dirt on the front and sides. Last time I pay for an Atlas Master engine for 70 if the only difference between that and a ten dollar one is a little bit of weathering. Heck I could have had a fleet of 7 engines for the price of ten if it really was just the weathering that or the train show I go to has some crazy un-knowing of price vendors.
> (End of rant 2)


I bought a box lot of NIB locos and cars for one price. After selling off what I did not want, I had 3 NIB Atlas engines and one NIB car for $10, including that one. Soooooo...doing the math, I actually only paid $2.50 for it....

Yes...my friends at the club hate me....

What really helps me is that I don't mind what road name it has or if they're undecorated---they just look like a lease unit then. The prototype box really can beat you up, the paint job of a popular railroad easily adds up to 50% to the price in an auction.


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## juststartingout (Jan 2, 2011)

MY rant.........Send me some money.................!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> I haven't bought new in years...I always pointed out to my fellow club members that I would be able to buy their latest toy 10 years from now from the junk box at a train show. It's amazing how close to true that is as I lovingly fondle my Atlas Master Model Dash 8 with dual mode DCC on board that I got for $10 NIB...


$10!  Now, I'd like to find some deals like that! :thumbsup:


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Gad, I'm going to sound like my dad and grandfather. I bought a brand new '71 Chevy pickemup truck for just over $2,000, my 05 stickered at 30k. My wife bought a new 1973 Toyota Clelica ST for $2,600, what's a new one cost today? 

It's all relative IMHO, look what we made then compared to today. For us vintage gents, ever think you'd be living in, and be able to afford to live in a 200k+ home? My Dad flipped when I bought my first house, $370 a month, taxes and insurance included "how are you going to pay for it"? It was a nice house too.

Now specialty items, like the track nails for example, is where they get you. Go buy a stainless steel fastener, cost you x dollars. Now have "marine grade" put on the box and it's XX dollars. Same with aviation or racing items.

Boils down to this, you want to play, you have to pay


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

JackC said:


> Boils down to this, you want to play, you have to pay


Amen, Jack. 

If you want to consume more products and services... simply produce more wealth. 

Over time, the constantly fluctuating number of dollars used for both processes remains in parity. 

Greg


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Plastic is a petroleum product. Seen the price of a barrel of oil lately?
When I was driving OTR back in 03-04, diesel was around $1.50 gallon. It's over $4 now. The cost of raw materials has gone through the roof.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Oops, Double post.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

flyboy2610 said:


> Plastic is a petroleum product. Seen the price of a barrel of oil lately?
> When I was driving OTR back in 03-04, diesel was around $1.50 gallon. It's over $4 now. The cost of raw materials has gone through the roof.


At least one major cause that raw material prices have gone through the roof is that the value of the dollar has gone through the floor. The dollar used to be a symbol of productivity, now it's a symbol of debt.

Greg


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Guys of "Seniority",
One of my buddies told me to stop talking about the "good old days" and be happy that we're old, but still have "good days". :thumbsup:
Makes perfect sense to me. 
Bob


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

I agree, Bob. 
All the days are good because I don't use dollars as a store of wealth, and only use them as a transient medium of exchange.

Greg


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

choo choo said:


> At least one major cause that raw material prices have gone through the roof is that the value of the dollar has gone through the floor. The dollar used to be a symbol of productivity, now it's a symbol of debt.
> 
> Greg


I wonder if the 'brain trust" in DC have anything to do with that? 14 Trillion and counting. And they want to raise the debt (borrow) ceiling even more.

Unfrigginbelieveable ...

I've never bought anything in my life that I didn't have a way to pay for. I'd rather sell my own blood before I'd ever ask anyone for a dime. But, that's just me ...

The majority of our illustrious gang of DC politicians don't quite follow that same philosophy. Sadly.

TJ


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## Littlefoot14 (Sep 3, 2010)

My opinions regarding prices and model trains are to buy the best deals for the things you need/want. Case in point, I just pre-ordered both of the Walthers/Athearn P42s, retail is over $220, ill be paying about $160. How about an Athearn Genesis SD70ACe for $100 MIB? I just bought 2 Athearn Genesis 60ft Gunderson Boxcars, retail was probably over $30, i paid $10/each for MIB. The deals are out there, you just have to look.

Search sites like HOYardSale and find a friend whose a representative/dealer if youd like to save money. I have no problem with used stuff either, and it gets me lots of deals.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> I wonder if the 'brain trust" in DC have anything to do with that? 14 Trillion and counting. And they want to raise the debt (borrow) ceiling even more.


I'm content to let them take their government bus over the cliff because I'm not in it. 



> Unfrigginbelieveable ...
> 
> I've never bought anything in my life that I didn't have a way to pay for. I'd rather sell my own blood before I'd ever ask anyone for a dime. But, that's just me ...


Same here, tj...
Solvency is the very finest quality of protection from external economic forces. 



> The majority of our illustrious gang of DC politicians don't quite follow that same philosophy. Sadly.
> 
> 
> TJ


They're getting exactly the government they deserve...

...and as long as you don't make the government they deserve the government you deserve, you'll be just fine.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Littlefoot14 said:


> My opinions regarding prices and model trains are to buy the best deals for the things you need/want. Case in point, I just pre-ordered both of the Walthers/Athearn P42s, retail is over $220, ill be paying about $160. How about an Athearn Genesis SD70ACe for $100 MIB? I just bought 2 Athearn Genesis 60ft Gunderson Boxcars, retail was probably over $30, i paid $10/each for MIB. The deals are out there, you just have to look.
> 
> Search sites like HOYardSale and find a friend whose a representative/dealer if youd like to save money. I have no problem with used stuff either, and it gets me lots of deals.


I totally agree. Smart shoppers can find the good deals. 

Greg


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

I dont know if I would call what I am about to type a rant or a gripe. Maybe it is both, but here goes my take on the model train industry.

(begin rant/gripe now!)

I really wish I could buy the model I want when I want or have the money to buy it. I do not like the fact that manufacturers make limited runs of something to keep from having to warehouse the items for a few months while they sell the stock off. This helps drive the price up due to the supply and demand, and also the manufacturers need to recoup the production costs faster which means a few more $$$ out of our pockets per unit to help with the offset. This is why back 10-20 years ago you could see the same model on the shelves of your favorite hobby store for more than just a few months, and buy that model when you were ready to. Most companies today are too shortsided to plan ahead and give their customers the products they really want. We have become a society of instant gratification and if you ask me instant gratification is usless because it is too slow, for most people.

I really want to add the UP heritage series of engines to my collection, hell I dont even model UP and up to a few years ago I didnt even like the company enough to even download pics of their engines off the net. But this is a nice set of engines, it was a great idea to honor the fallen flags that make up the UP system as it is today, but I dont have $250+ per month to spend on new engines. I can get a new one at that price in about 2 months from now, and another in another 2 or 3 months but by that time the whole set will be released and I will have waited too long to buy the engines I want.

Atlas, Athearn, Kato, BLI, Bachmann, Walthers, MTH, LGB, and any other manufacturer out there could benifit by increasing the production runs, spreading out the production costs, and lowering the prices of their products. How would they benifit? First off new prostpects into the hobby would not be so put off by the price of the products they want to buy, Us old guys that have been here for a few years can buy what we want when we want and possibly more than one to make up that nice consist that we have been dreaming of. How many of us can afford 2 or 3 $250 engines at the same time? Yea I thought so. How many of us can afford 2 or 3 $250 engines a year... just about all of us. So now you have people that would normally only end up buying one engine now buying 2 or 3 or more because they can buy at their leasure. I tell you what I tend to spend more money where there is no pressure to buy. Ask any car dealer that has pushed me. 

I hate to say it but I think that manufacturers today are going to start struggling here really soon if they are not already unless they start looking deeper into the future of the hobby and start planning farther ahead than the next run of 10000 units. Instant gratification needs to stay out of this hobby. 

Massey


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

The Hobby Manufactuerers Association released the results of a 2009 study by the University of Louisville School of Business estimating the size of the US hobby industry at $1.47 billion dollars. Of that model railroading accounts for $424 million. That doesn't sound like much to me but at the end they say that only 39% of the HMA menbers responded. Not all make RR stuff.
Not much of a survey if only 39% responded to it. Must be a lot more business out there that nobody knows about.
My point is that for less than half a million bucks worth of business the mfgs can't afford to have product laying around hoping somebody will decide to buy it. They are going to put their money where they can get the quickest return on it and that means turning the inventory fast. A 'sold out' item is a 'paid for' item and the profit is in the bank.
Also since all the engines ect. are made overseas and no doubt there is a minimum order and you have to take a whole container to get the stuff here,I figure there ain't no way to order a second batch right away of something that sells out fast. If you don't fill the container you pay the same as a full one for shipping. I0,000 little engines in boxes won't come anywhere near filling even a half container. 
The problem is that we don't make any of this stuff in the USA anymore. Too bad about that. Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Doesn't sound like much? 29% of the total hobby industry is model railroading! There are a lot of other hobbies, right?


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Check these prices--1976-- only a few years ago it seems. Pete


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

norgale said:


> Check these prices--1976-- only a few years ago it seems. Pete


That seems like a really long time ago for someone born in 95:laugh: You can't really use it as a fair comparison to cars made today though. Those cars used not as reliable/prototypical horn hooks which were easy to make compared to knuckles. The wheels and trucks were also made out of plastic which is almost unheard of all all new rolling stock that it equipped with metal wheels and they have greatly increased the ease of rolling on the trucks to as well as making major improvements to the plastic shell castings. Now yes cars are still really expensive today IMHO except for the Bachmann line but they all have improvements over older/cheaper cars so some of it is justifiable. Now with inflation if you were to inflate that price from 76 to current it would come somewhat close to present but their is still the problem with the dollar losing value and employers not increaseing the pay to componsate liket hey have done in the past. It is a very unstable system and their are advantages to paying workers more and disadvantages as well. It is finding the way to equalize it that is hard.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

No way can you compare prices and quality from "back then" to today. Prices today have far exceded income as a percentage.
In high school I figured after college if I got a job making 10-12 grand a year I'd be rich!
But it makes me chuckle looking back.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

I know it's a long shot to compare prices from so far back but the point is prices have gone up a whole lot and except for the things like the trucks and wheels it's still the same car. 1976 was about the time I started buying HO stuff and built my first layout. Lots of track and trains running everywhere but no scenery except for a few buildings. The house was a JIm Walter stilt house with room downstairs for the trains. It cost me $29k lock stock and barrel. The RV I live in now cost $56k and is about 1/8th the size of the old house but costs a whole lot less to live in.The sticker shock is huge for me as you can imagine in getting back into the hobby right now. I can't believe I just paid $150 for one engine. Could have gotten 5 for that price way back when. Ha! Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, comparing an RV to a stick built house is hardly a realistic comparison. You can't drive away in the stick built house.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

A place to live is a place to live with or without wheels. The old house would be worth about 150k today if the idiot to whom I sold it hadn't burned the darned place down. It was a decent home on Marco Island but the trailer is a heap cheaper to live in than the house was. Plus I can hook up and go down the road anytime I want and I like that although the trailer hasn't moved in 15 years.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's like saying a room at the Waldorf or Motel-8 are the same.  Just because it's a place to live, doesn't make the price comparable.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

heh heh heh!


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

norgale said:


> Check these prices--1976-- only a few years ago it seems. Pete


In 1976, gold averaged about $125 an ounce. 

Now it's over $1,500 an ounce. 

So the parity price of a $2.25 box car today would be $27.

See? 

The *ONLY *real variable over time is the *DECLINING VALUE* of paper dollars.

Greg


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Last I knew gold was $32 and the dollar was worth a dollar. What happened to that? Oh ya! I remember,President Johnson happened. Now look what we have. Pete


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