# TMCC versus DCC



## BHR301

Simple question, I'm just looking for pros and cons. Before you reply please think about the following:

1. I have only have postwar (47 thru 60) Flyer.
2. I'm NOT a collector, I am a runner (after all they were made to be played with)
3. My last Flyer layout was all DC and I was thinking that TMCC or DCC would improve operation.
4. I'm not interested in sound so that's not a factor.
5. All my engines will have can DC motors to start with.

Like I said I just looking for ideas, no arguments please!


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## mopac

I really doubt there would be arguments here. I am not going to be of any help to you. 
I use DCC on my HO and N. I have never used TMCC so can't compare. I run conventional
on S gauge. I use a lionel ZW. It goes much lower volts than a AF transformer. Decent
slow speed operation. Hope someone can help you.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, either would work, it really depends on which way you'll go in the future. If you are intending to buy some newer stuff like Lionel Legacy Flyer stuff, then TMCC would make sense. However, if you don't see this happening, or would rather go the MTH way with any new stuff, then DCC seems appropriate.


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## BHR301

Thanks mopac,
I've tried DCC on HO before and liked it...just want to get some input before I go to all the work of setting up my engines one way and then find the other would have been better.

Thanks gunrunnerjohn,
Not really interested in adding any Flyonel ...I'm just interested in improving operation.
Bill


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## AmFlyer

My layout is all Legacy controlled with a mix of new Lionel Flyer Legacy/TMCC engines and American Models engines converted to TMCC. I can easily operate original Gilbert engines because the Legacy Cab 2 hand held will control track voltage (all the way down to 0V if using a ZW-L).
The big issue for your layout is most TMCC boards really want AC track power. Since you will have DC can motors retrofitted in Gilbert engines I would think that DCC would be the choice for you. There is no fleet of new Legacy engines planned for your layout. 
I recommend you visit the tuveson.com website to see what is involved in TMCC retrofits of various engines.
DCC also offers control of other aspects of the layout such as turnouts and reverse loops. Legacy also offers this functionality with the Lionel Layout Control System. I use the LCS. The LCS is more expensive and possibly more complex to set up than DCC but the iPad based mimic control panels really are nice.
Based on your wants and don't wants I say use DCC. DCC controlled engines will run better than DC and possibly better at very low speeds than TMCC.


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## BHR301

Thanks Tom

I don't have a problem with powering my layout with AC...ERR has decoders for TMCC that convert AC to DC so the can motors are no problem. I'm using can motors because they are about a 100% improvement over old AF motors. It's just which system will work better for me. To be honest I can't really see much difference between the two operating systems...

Bill


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## 2genflyers

Question for AmFlyer. 

What is the size of the TMCC modules? Smaller is generally better, all other things being equal, as it provides more flexibility when installing. Some DCC decoders (HO) can handle the power requirements of AF, and some can not. Of course HO decoders are quite small and SUPER easy to install. On the other hand, higher power DCC decoders (Soundtraxx ECO-400 etc) are quite a bit larger. I've always managed to find a way to get the larger DCC decoders installed in AF but it _is_ more challenging.
Not sure about the size of the TMCC modules.

BHR
Another consideration...unless you've already completed the can motor conversions, I have found the Timko motors to draw less power (amps) than the SNS. Both run extremely smoothly. My experience with amperage draw could just be a matter of sample size, but if in fact the Timko motors _DO_ draw less power by design.... then you might be able to go FULLY HO decoders. In that case now you are REALLY talking less $$$$ especially if you don't care about sound. 

PS - plan on adding a current keeper (keep-alive) to ALL your AF.


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## 2genflyers

BHR,

Check out this thread. I made a comment about optimizing the power draw on can motors. This is not an issue in ANY other scale as the decoders/TMCC are designed specifically for their respective scales. But the world of American Flyer is a bit like the "Shire"...middle earth. Stuck between two realms, therefore optimizing your power draw can pay HUGE dividends.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=161729


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## BHR301

2genflyers 

Thanks for the replies. I didn't know about the current draw difference in the two brands, something else I'll have to look into. I am really interested in the "slow speed" motors that Port Lines Hobbies sells. If I go with DCC I'm planning on using Digitrax DH465 decoders and if I go with TMCC I planned on using ERR decoders. I think all the information on TMCC decoders you might be interested in can be found here www.electricrr.com.

Bill


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## AmFlyer

Bill, the ERR boards will fit in almost all the Gilbert engines. You are not planning to add sounds (Railsounds boards and speaker) so space should be fine. The Gilbert 3 pole open frame motors draw a lot more current than any of the modern can motor retrofits available. The tuveson.com site has pictures of Carl's installations.
The can motor retrofits are available with half speed worm gears for some but not all engines.
All of my retrofits of TMCC have been into American Models engines which have modern DC can motors. Space can be a challenge in some of the diesels when sound is included. The solution was to tether two engines together. For some of the AM diesels significant milling of the chassis was required.


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## 2genflyers

Those Digitrax DH465 decoders look like a smart choice if you decide on DCC. 4 Amp continuous is a TON of juice. Even the least efficient can motor (scaled for AF) will catch fire LONG before it reaches 4 amps. And the size fits nicely also.


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## Chuck7612

I recommend you talk to David Horn of precisionflyerrepairs.com. He is an expert at both TMCC and DCC installations in S scale engines, including Gilbert AF. He would be happy to share his views.

Personally, I came in to the hobby 2 years ago and chose TMCC/Legacy for a few reasons...super easy to research and operate, far less intimidating for someone who knows nothing about this stuff, super cool Flyonel Legacy engines, ability to operate my turnouts with a hand held remote or smart phone, ease of switching between running command control engines and conventional.


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## BHR301

Update: I have decided to go with a basic TMCC Cab-1 system with ERR decoders. It's simple, low cost and will do everything I want it to do.

Thanks for all the help everybody.

Bill


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## Chuck7612

Good luck and let me know if you need any help.


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## BHR301

Thank you Chuck7612.


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## Chuck7612

Regarding size, it is dependent on which ERR board you want to use. The Cruise Lite is the best because you get cruise control on turns and grades, but it is much larger than the Mini Commander II. For steam, you can definitely fit the Cruise Lite in the tender of a Northern, Hudson, or a Pacific. I have not tried it with my Atlantic or 0-8-0, and I don't have a K-5.

I have not done any Flyer Diesels and I don't own any to be able to check the space available. But for the PA's, I am sure you could fit a Mini II. You might be able to get a Cruise Lite in as I have done with large diesels like AM's E8. For smaller diesels like AM's FP-7 or F40, I have done either, as Tom said, a tether to a dummy B unit to fit a Cruise Lite or just use a Mini II.


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## BHR301

Update and change of plans...looks like I'll be using DCC when I get around to upgrading my Flyer. Not my idea but when you can't buy decoders for TMCC, the system is pretty useless. Found the following notice on the home page of ERR "Based on business decisions Lionel has decided to no longer support The Electric Railroad Company. We will officially be shutting down all sales of Electric RR related products on May 15th."

Bill


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## mopac

I think you will be very happy with DCC. After you do DC can motor conversions to your
old flyer steamers. Should work fine.


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## 2genflyers

Bill, congrats on making your decision...which is often the most difficult part of any project. I have converted several S trains to DCC recently, about half are post-war AF and the remainder are American Models. All with sound. Although I am certainly no expert here are a few nuggets I wish I had known before I started.

1. It is expensive to convert to sound.
2. It is expensive to convert to sound.
3. Seeing a pattern?
4. I purchased a few of Soundtraxx's ECO-400 decoders which have a LOT of power headroom. I've learned that with a little fine-tuning of any drive-train you can get significant reductions in power-draw, which allows you to go to an HO scale decoder. (see cost). I am now running three of those (HO) with great success. A bonus...they are much easier to install.
5. I have decoders from both Soundtraxx and Digitrax. Both provide excellent motor control, but the sound quality from the Soundtraxx decoder (even their "ECO") models is FAR superior. If you are planning on going the non-sound route then I don't see the cost/value benefit in going with a "premium" decoder.

Hope that helps.

PS - get a "current-keeper" (keep-alive) for each of your post-war AF's. Running an old AF without one, even on excellent track-work will reveal how many power breaks there actually are! Gets frustrating.


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## mopac

Getting "current keeper" also called "keep alive" is a good idea for any DCC install.


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## gsmittle

BHR301 said:


> Update and change of plans...looks like I'll be using DCC when I get around to upgrading my Flyer. Not my idea but when you can't buy decoders for TMCC, the system is pretty useless. Found the following notice on the home page of ERR "Based on business decisions Lionel has decided to no longer support The Electric Railroad Company. We will officially be shutting down all sales of Electric RR related products on May 15th."
> 
> Bill


From the ERR site:

Welcome Our Valued ERR and 3rd Rail Customers and Dealers:

We at Sunset Models / 3rd Rail are proud to announce that we are now OFFICALLY licensed by Lionel LLC. to produce, sell and support a line of ERR products as of May 15, 2018. We call this line of products "ERR by 3rd Rail".

All future orders will be billed by and fulfilled by Sunset Models Inc. / 3rd Rail. (ERR by 3rd Rail). Currently we are accepting reservations for the first shipment expected in October of 2018.

Looks like ERR lives…

Smit


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## gunrunnerjohn

Smit, they don't offer the Cruise Commander Lite or the Mini Commander II yet, those are the ones that are likely of most use to the S-scale folks.


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## gsmittle

OK. I don't use TMCC or DCC (pretty fuzzy on how to implement either, actually). Also, I don't have a layout yet; I inherited some AF trains and track and just moved, so I haven't set anything up yet.

Smit


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## mopac

I just use a transformer for AF trains. So far I am satisfied with that. I have DCC for
my HO trains. These AF trains are so old its just nostalgic to just use a transformer.


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## AFGP9

I have never dealt with DCC so can't give you a fair comparison. Since I have adapted TMCC using a Lionel ZW transformer for track power I can tell you I couldn't be more pleased. However, all but 2 of my locomotives are AC so I really can't compare this to DC since I have never ran my DC engines. Plus I have no can motors. All my engines are original 1946-1960 engines. The biggest advantage, and why I converted to TMCC, is that I have a walk around hand held control instead of being bound to a single transformer location. I don't need the full TMCC capabilities. Just engine track power control. With the ZW, I have excellent slow speed control as well. 
Hope this is a little help.


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