# And now it begins! AF336 rebuild



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I received my new Northern today. It is just as it looked In the EBay photos. A bit of rust and corrosion on the Hogshead's side. A missing hand rail but that can easily be fabricated. I think that I can clean it up fairly easy. The big problem is that it appears that it may have been dropped. I was able to bend the road numbers back to original position. 
I applied power to the tender wheel axles and the eunit clicked but nothing. So now I will tear it down and go from there...hwell: The life of an AF addicted fool goes on!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

More corrosion on the inside then I wanted to see. Got most disassembled and cleaned the chassis. Applied power to the motor and it acted like it wanted to turn but started smoking.:thumbsdown: Took the motor apart, cleaned everything, replaced the brushes and lubricated all. Applied power again and the armature started to lightly smoke! Immediately cut power. Now I am thinking that the armature may be bad. Checked my supply of parts but only have spare armatures for the small engine. This is a American Flyer Super Motor. Went online looking for parts but got shell shock as to prices where I could find them.:thumbsdown: Unless some one here has any suggestions, I will try to rewind the armature. I have done it in the past but didn't like doing it.:smilie_daumenneg: But boy am I having fun!!!:hah::hah::hah:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Make sure armature turns easily with your fingers before applying any more power.

I did have a bad armature on my 282 but I think that is rare. I still do not know what is wrong with my armature. I switched one out of a parts chassis and all is well. My bad
armature ran, did not smoke, but got very hot running. Hope you got a good deal on
the northern. You probably should have bought one that seller says runs good. Good luck. You know flyernut will help you.

Yes, the big motor parts are expensive. I have seen just the big motor go for 200.00.

If you bought your northern untested I might have to smack you. LOL.

Just thought of something. You can put the small motor in that thing. flyernut has a northern with small motor and
he says he can't tell much difference.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Make sure armature turns easily with your fingers before applying any more power.
> 
> I did have a bad armature on my 282 but I think that is rare. I still do not know what is wrong with my armature. I switched one out of a parts chassis and all is well. My bad
> armature ran, did not smoke, but got very hot running. Hope you got a good deal on
> ...


Stand in line for smacking me Mopac. "She who must be obeyed" has been very supportive up until I told her how much a new (old) motor or armature is. I am still trying to figure out what the problem is. I wonder if there is too much play with the commutator shaft. There were two thrust washers on the gear side but nothing at the brush end. There is about 1/16 inch play fore and aft. It doesn't look right to me. I will tear it down again later and try to adjust out some play. We will see. :dunno:


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## Jwh2000 (Dec 4, 2017)

*can motor*

What about an SNS can motor?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, I think I would have at least one shim on each end of armature. I don't think a little slop is that big of deal. I have a 302 that has a bunch of slop. Maybe not a quarter
inch but a bunch. I tried to shim it and it barely would run. It likes a lot of slop. I am
thinking the worm gear and the axle gear have a bunch of wear. But it runs good so what the heck.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Jwh2000 said:


> What about an SNS can motor?


Very interesting suggestion. But, as good as they sound, it would take me down another path I don't want to go. I would need a larger layout, another DCC system, bookoo decoders, new house and a new wife. But after 54 years, I am too old for a new wife!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The can motors are not that involved Broke. Could use DCC but don't have to.
Along with can motor install an electronic E unit. You can feed it AC or DC and it will
send DC to can motor. When my 282 motor was bad I thought about a can motor.
I myself like to use original motor. Just because, LOL.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Sorry to hear of your 336 woes.. If all else fails, you can just use the smaller motor. Be sure you use the correct armature, field, and brush assembly. There's a seller on ebay named bbiggameboy, or something like that, and the AF stuff he sells is 100%. I've bought from him many times, and his stuff is great.. My 332 and K335 both have the small motor, and like MOPAC says, I can't tell the difference.. And if all else fails, you know where you can send it,lol.. Make sure when you dis-assemble the engine you take MANY pictures of the linkages, etc. The linkages have to be "quartered also, and these linkages can get complicated quite quickly on a Northern. Luckily, I have 3 of them, so I can compare them to each other.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have bought from biggameboy also. That's where my parts chassis came from.
It was as described. I agree, if the large motor has problems install a small motor to get it running.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

If you decide to re-wind the armature yourself maybe you'll get lucky and find the break close to the end. You could always send the core to Portlines and get a re-wound exchange armature (around $95.00). Saves a lot of headaches and it's guaranteed. On a completely different note, Happy Birthday mopac!!!:appl::appl::appl:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks cramden.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Happy birthday Mopac! :appl: You brought me luck today! :thumbsup: I got the 336 to run and smoke! It was a lot of grime, oil and gunk in both the boiler and tender. I was surprised to find a speaker and capacitor in the tender as well as some pickup shoes instead of the middle axle. I know nothing about this nor how the whistle works.:dunno: 
Just more clean up and corrosion repair plus either buying a red plastic or fabricating a copper a smoke tube. Also, maybe a whistle controller. But I am not sure if I would like the sound. I am quite happy with the progress. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
What are you doing to celebrate your birthday?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks Broke. Pretty normal day for my birthday. Lost about 2 northerns at the casino. 

I am getting better about staying away from casino but not good enough yet.

Glad you got your beast running. When I got my northern it needed a new harness from

tender to engine. The whistle crap was in my way. I removed the speaker and capacitor and all. I kept the parts but I would bet I will not install them again. That whistle sounds like junk. They all do. Not one of AF's better ideas. I bet you were glad to get your 336 running and will not need motor parts.


I still have a decent looking Hudson that does not run and I have not worked on it at all.

I call it my winter project. Sorry for all the double spacing. Not sure what that is about.

I think the Hudson will have a whistle speaker in tender. I want to get a couple of lionel
Railsounds boxcars to run behind some of my steamers. Now that has a nice whistle sound. Keep us posted on your northern.

Buy a red plastic smoke tube. The glowing red smoke stack looks nice on a northern. Best bet is to buy 4 to 8 of them.
You will need them. For other locos.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

My euphoria didn't last tool long. At first run, the smoke was there howbeit faint. Now nothing. I suppose I will get some experience in rewiring the smoker heater wire.. I bought a kit last year when Mopac rewired one. We will see how this goes.hwell: But the motor runs strong, steady and fast after rebuilding it.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Soon I'll be taking lessons from you guys.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, I have not done an armature. I rewired a field coil. That is still working fine.

Sorry to hear 336 not running again. Sounds like you may have smoked it this time.

Put a small motor in it. Then when you run across large motor parts, you can jump.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

mopac said:


> Broke, I have not done an armature. I rewired a field coil. That is still working fine.
> 
> Sorry to hear 336 not running again. Sounds like you may have smoked it this time.
> 
> Put a small motor in it. Then when you run across large motor parts, you can jump.


Everything is fine except that it isn't smoking now. So far out of ten eBay locomotives they all smoked. This one did at first and then nutting! Probably I burnt it out because the wick was dried out from sitting so long. Anyway I have always wanted to see the insides of the smoke unit.:laugh:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Good deal B.C.:thumbsup: Might have been lots of oil and gunk burning off when the armature was smoking. Soak the wick overnight and see if it comes back before you do any surgery, sometimes it works and other times the element just burns out the first few times in years that it gets hot. Glad you didn't have to repair or replace the motor. If it's still apart then maybe go ahead and rebuild the smoke unit. You might want to order a few spares just to have, never know when another one will quit.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, my northern has quit smoking. Was a good smoker. I have done 3 smoke units.
2 are working fine. The first one I did lasted about 2 seconds. LOL, there was a flash of
light and then nothing. I had wound the wick myself. Must have crossed some wire and it shorted. From now on I will buy prewound wicks.

So your large motor is doing fine?


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I've said this before, and it's worth repeating.. Whenever you acquire a new to you loco, ALWAYS add smoke fluid to the unit BEFORE you apply any power.The 2 engines I got last week both smoked AFTER I added smoke fluid, following my own advice. The 290 is still smoking like a 60's hippie, but the 302AC will smoke at only full throttle, and then just a little. I have around 5 smoke units on hand, already rebuilt, and just swapped it out for a "new" one.Problem solved.. I get between 4-5 pre-wound kits from Jeff Kane at the Train Tender, and they have never failed me.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

flyernut said:


> I've said this before, and it's worth repeating.. Whenever you acquire a new to you loco, ALWAYS add smoke fluid to the unit BEFORE you apply any power.The 2 engines I got last week both smoked AFTER I added smoke fluid, following my own advice. The 290 is still smoking like a 60's hippie, but the 302AC will smoke at only full throttle, and then just a little. I have around 5 smoke units on hand, already rebuilt, and just swapped it out for a "new" one.Problem solved.. I get between 4-5 pre-wound kits from Jeff Kane at the Train Tender, and they have never failed me.


Advice which I knew and failed to follow!hwell: Thanks Flyernut!:thumbsup:


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Advice which I knew and failed to follow!hwell: Thanks Flyernut!:thumbsup:


We all have brain farts, my dear friend...with me it's more like a LIQUID fart,lol!!!!:laugh:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Portlines says "If you have an ohmmeter, check the resistance across the two ends of the winding before you install it. It is likely that it has too many windings, which results in high resistance and low smoke output. I recall one that I checked had about 75 ohms resistance......almost double what it should be ! I had to remove about five windings from each end of the coil in order to get the resistance close to 40 ohms, an appropriate amount to produce a good volume of smoke even at slow speeds. Less windings results in more smoke output, but it also reduces the life of the wick slightly. " 
Do all agree with this statement? My kit reads 75 ohms. I am inclined to believe it but I am hesitant in unwinding some of the coil. But I like Smoke!, the more the better!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I agree with the 40 ohms statement. I always test mine. Here is the rub with that.
I get a different reading with uninstalled wick and installed wick. I can't remember
if it gets higher or lower installed. I doubt you can mess with old wick. I would get a new wick kit. Then you will be good for awhile.


Seller of my northern said it measured 40 ohms. It smoked great when I got it. Smoked good at low speed.

Like I said earlier my northern has quit smoking. I don't know how old my wick was.

I did put fluid in it before I ran it.

I bought a new O scale steamer this morning. Its a MTH premiere. Should be nice. N&W J class #611. I have the passenger cars for it. Its from 1997 but suppose to be brand new in box. I will have to service it.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Portlines says "If you have an ohmmeter, check the resistance across the two ends of the winding before you install it. It is likely that it has too many windings, which results in high resistance and low smoke output. I recall one that I checked had about 75 ohms resistance......almost double what it should be ! I had to remove about five windings from each end of the coil in order to get the resistance close to 40 ohms, an appropriate amount to produce a good volume of smoke even at slow speeds. Less windings results in more smoke output, but it also reduces the life of the wick slightly. "
> Do all agree with this statement? My kit reads 75 ohms. I am inclined to believe it but I am hesitant in unwinding some of the coil. But I like Smoke!, the more the better!


I agree with your statement. I always unwind about 5-7 loops of wire, and I get great smoke.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Well after getting excited that my 336 started to run, the smoke unit burnt out. Easy fix, says I! And it was easy to replace the wick and wire. Now after finishing that small distraction, the motor doesn't run!:smilie_daumenneg: I was very careful in not disturbing any of the motors wiring. This now acts just like it did when I first tried it and after a while it started running great. I am suspicious of the field winding but I can't prove that. Maybe the armature? So here is my question:
If I replace the large AF motor with a can motor and a Dalee unit, how will it effect the value. Also, if I remove the speaker and capacitor, will that degrade the value? I paid $234.50 for it initially. What to do? :dunno:


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't think it matters since the can motor and Dallee unit don't require any permanent modification of the engine. If you save all of the original parts it can be changed back along with the speaker and capacitor. I would check the harness wiring, acts like a bad connection or wire if it worked and now it doesn't. Also if it's a 5 wire and you unplugged the harness, make sure it's plugged in correctly. It can be plugged in either way but the wiring doesn't match. It should have a red paint mark on the plug and the board to align it correctly. I've never seen a broken field wire work sporadically. Same with a bad armature. Having said that, I haven't seen everything there is so it could be possible, but not likely IMHO. I have had bad harness connections that work for 10 minutes and then quit. Gently wiggling the wires sometimes will restart the engine. If the harness is the original cloth covered kind the wire inside can fray and loose connectivity at the slightest movement. Still having fun? I would pin the exact problem down before investing in any new parts.


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