# Need help in laying out a small HO layout



## Bkubiak

I have a table, 3/4 plywood 72 inch by 42 inch and have lots and lots of track, 5 turnouts and a 90 degree cross track need some advice in getting the most I can from this size.

Doing this in HO Gauge


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## Big Ed

You won't need too much track to fill it.
That is not that much space to work with you know?

Maybe that is why no one said anything yet?


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## DonR

We love to critisize a layout, or make suggestions to improve it,
but It's a tough assignment for us to design a layout for you.

If you have any paper that you can scale try drawing out ovals
with turnouts to create spur tracks. Try to keep your curves
with a 22" minimum radius. Just a rough draft will get
you started. 

Or better yet, get a copy of the Free SCARM, that
lets you design a layout on your computer. It can be downloaded
from a site listed in the product promotions forum.

When you get something going post it and you'll hear from
several of our members.

Don


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## Big Ed

Is it possible to make the table a little larger?

What kind of train operation are you looking for?
Point to point running, switching, or just running around a loop with a few sidings? 
Or I guess you want to use the 90 crossing too?


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## CTValleyRR

DonR said:


> We love to critisize a layout, or make suggestions to improve it,
> but It's a tough assignment for us to design a layout for you.
> 
> If you have any paper that you can scale try drawing out ovals
> with turnouts to create spur tracks. Try to keep your curves
> with a 22" minimum radius. Just a rough draft will get
> you started.
> 
> Or better yet, get a copy of the Free SCARM, that
> lets you design a layout on your computer. It can be downloaded
> from a site listed in the product promotions forum.
> 
> When you get something going post it and you'll hear from
> several of our members.
> 
> Don


We also love to criticize our members who aren't paying attention. You can't put a 180 curve with 22" radius on a 42" piece of plywood.

For the OP: You've really got a whole lot of nothing there. A table, at 30" nominal height, is much shorter than most of us would recommend. Depending on how tall you are, 48" to 54" is much easier on the back, and it just looks better when the trains are closer to eye level. Have you considered making your own benchwork? Your piece of plywood is very small, only 6 x 3-1/2 feet. This pretty much restricts you to a loop of track with a siding or two, and 18" curves, which won't handle long passenger cars or big locos. Since you've only got 6' to work with, to get a siding of any length you will have to put turnouts very close to your curves, which is asking for trouble. If you go for a figure eight, that's about all you'll be able to fit on that board.

My best advice to you is to rip that plywood down the middle and butt the ends together, making a 21" by 12' table, then invest in a few more turnouts and make a switching layout.


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## DonR

Your're So right CTValley.

I saw 42" but my 'mind' read 48".

Don


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## D&J Railroad

I would cut the plywood down the middle lengthwise, put the two pieces end to end and make it a switching layout.


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## Big Ed

Bkubiak said:


> I have a table, 3/4 plywood 72 inch by 42 inch and have lots and lots of track, 5 turnouts and a 90 degree cross track need some advice in getting the most I can from this size.
> 
> Doing this in HO Gauge





CTValleyRR said:


> We also love to criticize our members who aren't paying attention. You can't put a 180 curve with 22" radius on a 42" piece of plywood.
> 
> For the OP: You've really got a whole lot of nothing there. A table, at 30" nominal height, is much shorter than most of us would recommend. Depending on how tall you are, 48" to 54" is much easier on the back, and it just looks better when the trains are closer to eye level. Have you considered making your own benchwork?


The OP's first post is above.
I am paying attention and I am not criticizing......yet. 
CTV, May I ask how you came up with a 30" height on his table? 
I can't find any reference to the height, all I see is the width,length and thickness?
Though you are right about a 30" height, I agree with that. 
I am just wondering how you came up with the 30".


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## CTValleyRR

big ed said:


> The OP's first post is above.
> I am paying attention and I am not criticizing......yet.
> CTV, May I ask how you came up with a 30" height on his table
> I can't find any reference to the height, all I see is the width,length and thickness?
> Though you are right about a 30" height, I agree with that.
> I am just wondering how you came up with the 30".


Ask away. My other hobby is carpentry. The typical height for a table is 30"(with the exception of formal dining tables). I'm assuming (yes, I know what happens...) that he has an old piece of furniture that he is repurposing for his layout. If it's something he built, why comment on the piece of plywood separately?

But don't worry about it. I've been wrong before, and will be again. Probably sooner rather than later.


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## CTValleyRR

DonR said:


> Your're So right CTValley.
> 
> I saw 42" but my 'mind' read 48".
> 
> Don


That's okay. If you search these forums, you will find where I said that a yardstick could not be used to lay out a curve with an 18" radius.


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## Big Ed

Ok, I was just wondering if I missed something. Or sometimes one will say things in another thread and somehow they get carried over to the new thread.
I do agree, 30" is almost on the floor.

30" would be fine...........if your only 48" tall.


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## RT_Coker

If you like to sit on a low bench to work and like to involve your young kids or grandkids, ~30” is a good height. Not a recommendation, just a different point of reference.
Bob


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## DonR

The peskiest problem with a low table height is that you
will have to crawl under it for wiring. For most men, a
height of around 40 inches will afford a more comfortable
sitting position while under the table. Even higher if
you are quite tall. I measured myself in a sitting
position to determine my height, 38 inches.

Don


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## RT_Coker

Don,
The nice thing about DCC is that you do not have to do a lot of wiring. I prewired for the switches through hollow-core-doors. However, I did have to crawl under to bolt the doors together and connect the plugs and tape over the access holes. 
“Not a recommendation, just a different point of reference.”
Bob


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## DonR

Bob

Bob, tis true that DCC has taken away much of the wiring
chores. I haven't had to mess with my buss or or drops
in quite a while.

But, I have had to crawl under my layout often even after I think
everything is done. Then an idea pops into my head for a building
that will have lights and on my knees again. Or the ballast gets
into a joiner and it fails to conduct track current...that means a new
drop to the buss. 

Tis, sad, or glad, as the effect may be, but a modeller's work is
never done.

Don


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## CTValleyRR

RT_Coker said:


> If you like to sit on a low bench to work and like to involve your young kids or grandkids, ~30” is a good height. Not a recommendation, just a different point of reference.
> Bob


I would say much better to build (or invest in) a couple of step stools or bar stools and build your layout higher. No matter how you operate it, you're going to want it up about chest height when you're working on it... or under it.


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## CTValleyRR

RT_Coker said:


> Don,
> The nice thing about DCC is that you do not have to do a lot of wiring. I prewired for the switches through hollow-core-doors. However, I did have to crawl under to bolt the doors together and connect the plugs and tape over the access holes.
> “Not a recommendation, just a different point of reference.”
> Bob


I have a bus wire and a feeder every 6-8 feet. That's not a lot, I agree. However, I am in the process of installing Tam Valley servos to control my turnouts. I'm spending A LOT of time under the layout and running wires every which way. I'd be a mental case (or more of one) were my layout any shorter than it is.


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## Big Ed

CTValleyRR said:


> I would say much better to build (or invest in) a couple of step stools or bar stools and build your layout higher. No matter how you operate it, you're going to want it up about chest height when you're working on it... or under it.


Well chest high on me is like 56/57"?
I would not want mine that high, I just measured mine and it is not that far from 30" high.

Mine is 36" from the floor to the top. I thought it was higher. My one section is 96"x96".
(8x8) and I have no access hole on it. I find mine comfortable to work on, but must admit I have to stretch to reach the middle. I stand at 6'4". 
So 30" for someone a bit shorter is not that bad.

Find a height that is comfortable to you to work on.
Don't worry about the kids they grow quickly and there are stools for them to stand on.


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## Big Ed

I guess his question does not matter anyway as the OP never came back'
Not a peep from him? :dunno:


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## CTValleyRR

big ed said:


> Well chest high on me is like 56/57"?
> I would not want mine that high, I just measured mine and it is not that far from 30" high.
> 
> Mine is 36" from the floor to the top. I thought it was higher. My one section is 96"x96".
> (8x8) and I have no access hole on it. I find mine comfortable to work on, but must admit I have to stretch to reach the middle. I stand at 6'4".
> So 30" for someone a bit shorter is not that bad.
> 
> Find a height that is comfortable to you to work on.
> Don't worry about the kids they grow quickly and there are stools for them to stand on.


Mine is 48" and I'm 6'1". My first one was ipon a tabletop at 30" and always gave me a back ache. Shorter probably works for you because it sounds like you have long raches. My longest is about 30" (no track there, only scenery).


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## CTValleyRR

big ed said:


> I guess his question does not matter anyway as the OP never came back'
> Not a peep from him? :dunno:


He's active on several other threads....


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## Big Ed

CTValleyRR said:


> Mine is 48" and I'm 6'1". My first one was ipon a tabletop at 30" and always gave me a back ache. Shorter probably works for you because it sounds like you have long raches. My longest is about 30" (no track there, only scenery).


I just ran down and measured again, 36" sounds low but it is 36". I measured 48" and it seemed like that would be a bit too high for me. At 48" I would have to stretch more to reach the middle. I got the round house in the middle, I rarely have to reach there now. I do use a stool when I go in there. 



CTValleyRR said:


> He's active on several other threads....


Yes I see that, maybe he forgot about this one?


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## CTValleyRR

Maybe this thread is a victim of the "enthusiastic beginner derailed by bruising collision with reality" syndrome.


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## Bkubiak

big ed said:


> I guess his question does not matter anyway as the OP never came back'
> Not a peep from him? :dunno:


hey I am still here lurking and smirking and reading all that is/was said, I never gave a table height but it is 33 inch and I am 5'7" and I can almost reach across. Sits on two sawhorses.

Gonna get a sheet of 4 x 8 and cut about 4-5 inch off along the length and splice a piece of that to each end of the board. MY issue is width, the table is near a door and interferes with going in and out and the two outside corners I will have to round off.

I was thinking about a figure 8 with an outside loop but the whole thing would run as one continuous track with no turnouts, I could have a couple turnouts inside the figure 8 to park stock. The table would be about 106 inch long by 43 give or take an inch

I was, still am, hoping people will post pictures of their small layouts to give me ideas. Right now I am running a loop around with an inner loop but using four turnouts and the constant derailing or uncoupling are annoying as hell. I have my Santa Fe 3500 Diesel pulling 15 cars around and it amuses the hell out of me to sit and watch it while sipping a coffee, but the up and down to recouple or rerail is annoying and I have three retailers on it but it always seems to derail no where near a rerailer


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## Bkubiak

I learned another new term today too
OP I assume means Original poster
OB I found means in original Box when looking at ads on craigs list or ebay
Turnout is the proper name on here for a switch track

Now I am considering a deal on a couple box's of HO and G gauge stuff across the great state of Florida, I have no use for the G stuff and have no idea what is there until I take the drive over


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## CTValleyRR

33" is going to kill your back when you start making scenery.

You have hit the frustration point where a lot of new folks decide this hobby isn't for them. Trains not running right is very discouraging. The most common cause of uncoupling and derailments is shoddy trackwork, followed by defective equipment. Since this isn't your permanent layout, you may not want to waste a whole lot of time fixing track issues, but you want to check and make sure all your wheelsets and track pieces are in gauge, especially if you plan to use it again. Do you have a standards gauge? If not, that's a good first purchase.

A good rule of thumb is that if everything derails or uncouples at the same spot, it's a track issue, otjerwise it's an equipment issue. Do you have any grades on your layout? And what kind of couplers do you have?

Two final notes: 1) books of track plans are readily available. I would buy one and choose one that appeals to you. 2) Yes, OP in this context means Original Poster.


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## RT_Coker

Bkubiak said:


> I am running a loop around with an inner loop but using four turnouts and the constant derailing or uncoupling are annoying as hell.


Check that the coupler pins are not snagging on the rails in the center of the turn-outs. In order to fix my Bachmann products I had to put a slight downward pressure on the couplers when checking the pin height above the rails.
Bob


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## Bkubiak

I want to try to stay on track layout on this thread as best I can, but all your recent posts got me to looking close at my rolling stock.
Horn Hook is what I have for all my couplers
Only two cars have the couplers attached to the frame, the rest are attached to the trucks
Only the same two cars have what appears to me to be a better quality truck attached with a screw and one of them has sprung trucks
Three of the cars have trucks that appear to be held in by a plastic plug
All the rest are pop in deals
some have metal axles, the rest are all plastic
I also noticed that couplers are at different heights measured coupler to coupler on a track
Some of the cars are incredibly detailed especially the bottom and some are plain
I think I have to first get a layout design that works for me


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## DonR

Yes, the layout design comes first. You're gonna be drawing and
changing a lot. So the car wheels and couplers can wait unless
you run across a really good deal. 

Many of us like to chop off those truck mounted couplers when replacing
the horn hooks with Kadee, preferably the # 148 with 'whisker'
centering spring.

Truck mounted couplers at times will derail when backing up a
long train due to the coupler pressing the wheels against the
rails.

When you do begin replacing couplers do get a PLASTIC Kadee coupler
height gauge. It will help you get them vertically aligned
so they don't uncouple at odd places. You want the
plastic model because it sits across the rails and the
metal version would short out your system.

There are several different designs that hold the trucks on
the car bodies. You've mentioned some. One,
at first glance, will throw you. There isn't
a plug or screw. These are held in by a barb on a shaft. To
remove those trucks you simply pull them off gently but
firmly.

Be very careful removing the trucks with the plastic plug to
avoid breaking it. A small flat blade screwdriver gently
prying around the shaft will get them out safely.

Don


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## CTValleyRR

I agree that you need to prioritize you track plan. However, the two issues are linked. IIRC, you have a lot of older stuff that has been in storage for a while. You need to make sure it's in useable shape before you incorporate it into a layout.

if your track is all brass, I strongly recomment that you get rid of it and invest in nickel silver. You will save yourself a lot of aggravation. If you're going to use older track, inspect it carefully. Make sure it's in gauge, and make sure that the rails are still firmly attached. As you're finding out, track issues will rapidlysuck all the fun out of the hobby.

Again, the two things I would buy immediately if I were you are a book of track plans and an HO standards gauge.


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## Bkubiak

Guys I was really looking for layout suggestions on basically a sheet of plywood, The nearest train hobby store to me is 30 plus miles away, I am not about to run out and buy new track or invest in new couplers at this point.
I have discovered that perhaps I am trying to pull too many cars and the ones that uncouple and or derail are a frame mount coupler to a truck mount coupler and it seems to do it on a turn. When I reduced the amount of cars down to pulling 5 or 6 it ran and ran and ran with no issues.
As far as my track I just have them clipped together and some of the clips or connectors are not very tight and sometimes when I bump the table I see the track move, I am just trying to find a nice twice around layout with a few turnouts to park cars on to get me started, once I am happy with the layout I will nail the track down. I have already figured that I will need to power to track in two places because I noticed the further the train gets from the power rail the slower it goes and I do have another power rail. Just do not have the right size wire yet and what size shall I get when I visit HD tomorrow.
I am feeling some negative vibes from some posts, and as we said in my misguided youth please do not harsh my mellow.
Please help to get the best track layout I can get and by the way I have lots and lots of track but I know I will need to get some of that 3 ft long flex track to make the layout work. When I was a kid in the 50's that was all the track that was available we bent it to fit and cut it to size


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## CTValleyRR

The problem is that we can't design a layout in a vacuum. So far, you've thrown out only the vaguest of suggestions on what you really want. So lets start with the basics. Please give a concrete answer to all questions-- the only wrong answer is not to be decisive. You can always change your mind later.
1) Do you want to perform switching operations (picking up and dropping off cars), or just a variety of ways to watch your trains go around one or more loops?
2) Do you have a particular era in mind, or are you just going to run whatever equipment suits your fancy?
3) What is the longest piece of equipment you will run?
4) Do you want realistic scenery or not?
5) Do you want to put structures on your layout?
6) Are you going to run DC or DCC? 
7) Do you want to be able to store cars and / or locos on the layout?
8) Are there any specific design elements you know you want? Examples would be tunnels, trestles, over / under crossovers, multiple levels, etc.
9) Do you want to use only your existing track pieces (a layout can be done using only sectional pieces; you do not need flextrack)? If so, please indicate what size turnouts, curve radii, crossovers, etc., you already have.
10) Are there any physical constraints in the layout area (poles, walla, doors) that affect access or placement? A scale drawing of your available area would be very helpful.
11) Are you willing to undertake the work involved in cutting the plywood and using a configuration other than a rectangle? Can you add more wood to the base if needed?

Believe it or not, all these things affect what can be done in your track plan. So, if you can provide some guidance and decisions, we'll get you a track plan in short order.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> The problem is that we can't design a layout in a vacuum. So far, you've thrown out only the vaguest of suggestions on what you really want. So lets start with the basics. Please give a concrete answer to all questions-- the only wrong answer is not to be decisive. You can always change your mind later.
> 1) Do you want to perform switching operations (picking up and dropping off cars), or just a variety of ways to watch your trains go around one or more loops?
> 2) Do you have a particular era in mind, or are you just going to run whatever equipment suits your fancy?
> 3) What is the longest piece of equipment you will run?
> 4) Do you want realistic scenery or not?
> 5) Do you want to put structures on your layout?
> 6) Are you going to run DC or DCC?
> 7) Do you want to be able to store cars and / or locos on the layout?
> 8) Are there any specific design elements you know you want? Examples would be tunnels, trestles, over / under crossovers, multiple levels, etc.
> 9) Do you want to use only your existing track pieces (a layout can be done using only sectional pieces; you do not need flextrack)? If so, please indicate what size turnouts, curve radii, crossovers, etc., you already have.
> 10) Are there any physical constraints in the layout area (poles, walla, doors) that affect access or placement? A scale drawing of your available area would be very helpful.
> 11) Are you willing to undertake the work involved in cutting the plywood and using a configuration other than a rectangle? Can you add more wood to the base if needed?
> 
> Believe it or not, all these things affect what can be done in your track plan. So, if you can provide some guidance and decisions, we'll get you a track plan in short order.


Thank you so much for taking your time to help me out, I really appreciate it.
I think I have mentioned what I am looking for and that is a twice around with a figure 8 and not using any up and over if possible. I want the ability to take the table down and lean it against a wall when we need the space and putting trestles on makes that difficult at best. The table size will be 43 inch wide by either 96 or 106 long depending on how it works out on my back porch room. The extra 10 inch will allow me to have an extra straight track to make a longer run since the straights are 9 inch long.
NOW To answer your questions
1. switching operations yes, sidings to park cars, the twice around layout would give me a long main line run
2. Just gonna run what I have for now which is 60's and 70's stuff
3. By longest piece I think you mean the longest car and that is 7 inch long
4. Scenery, no decision on that yet, was just gonna put a grass mat down for now
5. Structures, I have a few was thinking to make them none permanent at this time
6. DC
7. Yes I want to store cars and locos on track on the layout
8. I have a couple bridges, and one 90 degree cross track
9. Gonna use what I got but I may need some flex here and there to make a twice around work
10.It is gonna be against a wall but two sides and the front will be open, was thinking to make 
the legs on lockable casters so I could move it if needed, plus that will raise it a few inches 
too.
11.Only have space for a rectangle and yes I can add 10-12 inch to the length 

I hope all this helps, I plan to pick up a sheet of plywood today along with some wire, but I need to know the basic size wire to get. I guess we use solid core. There is a model store nearby but he only deals in O gauge stuff, he probably has the wire I need in spools, I would imagine two colors unless they have double wire available. The guy that owns the store is a rather cantankerous wealthy guy that told me he opened the store to get away from his wife during the day and he does not care if he sells anything or not, the place is plied high with cast model cars almost from floor to 6 ft high and you walk around in alley ways between the stuff. If you can name a car and the year he has one. He had one or more of every car I ever owned or wanted to own. He has a small table set up with an MTH and a Lionel set on it and stacks of train sets piled all around, there is a locked showcase with old locos of all kinds and most are not for sale, he also has a corner for parts and you have to wait for him to go in that corner to look around. He has all kinds of older Lionel stuff in showcases and is reluctant to show it to you unless you say you want to buy it, looking at it and touching it seems to be taboo. He opens the store when he feels like it, closes for lunch when he feels like it and goes home when when he feels like it. kinda weird, I asked for some traction tires for my Lionel 027 Loco I run around the christmas tree and I had to bring it in to get the tires and then he charged me .25 cents for two of them, and offered to install them for me for free which he did. You never know what his mood is when you go there. He is a giant of a man, at least 6' 6 " and is around 75 years old and looks like he could pound me to dust if I pissed him off.

There is a store called ready to run trains up in North Miami with 5 giant set ups in 5 diff gauges, they are very friendly and willing to help as much as they can but it is difficult to get there and the area is industrial with crappy parking if you can find any and if you can name it they have it.
They demonstrated a DCC MTH train to me and I was awe struck at how it worked, he was showing me two trains on the same track running around about three feet apart and he could control their speeds with a handheld device and operate turnouts and other things with this device and how all it costs was lots and lots of money 

Sorry to ramble, got three cups of coffee in me and did not have breakfast yet, hope the info I gave you helps you to help me


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## DonR

Ramble on...the more you say the more we can help.

So glad that you got to see the DCC demonstration. It is a
major improvement over plain old DC. It lets you do all sorts
of things that DC is incapable of, for example, running two
trains in opposite directions on the same track, or doing
back and forth switching operations while running a train around your layout.

It would sure be a big help if you could someway post a
drawing of the layout you want. You mention a double
oval and a figure 8. This raised a red flag that a
'reverse loop' might result. A reverse loop is when a loco
can go into it clockwise and return to the same track
running counter clockwise. In other words, it can turn around.
The reason this is a concern is that this creates an electrical
short circuit because at some point Rail A is connected
to rail B. In DC this requires some DPDT switches and
complex wiring. You must actually throw these
switches each time the loco goes into the loop.
With DCC there is a reverse loop
controller that does it automatically. It requires 
isolated track sections be it DC or DCC.

Don


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## Bkubiak

DonR said:


> Ramble on...the more you say the more we can help.
> 
> So glad that you got to see the DCC demonstration. It is a
> major improvement over plain old DC. It lets you do all sorts
> of things that DC is incapable of, for example, running two
> trains in opposite directions on the same track, or doing
> back and forth switching operations while running a train around your layout.
> 
> It would sure be a big help if you could someway post a
> drawing of the layout you want. You mention a double
> oval and a figure 8. This raised a red flag that a
> 'reverse loop' might result. A reverse loop is when a loco
> can go into it clockwise and return to the same track
> running counter clockwise. In other words, it can turn around.
> The reason this is a concern is that this creates an electrical
> short circuit because at some point Rail A is connected
> to rail B. In DC this requires some DPDT switches and
> complex wiring. You must actually throw these
> switches each time the loco goes into the loop.
> With DCC there is a reverse loop
> controller that does it automatically. It requires
> isolated track sections be it DC or DCC.
> 
> Don


 Attached is hand drawing of something I saw somewhere, it is a continuous loop, the one I saw had elevated track going over and under and I was thinking to do it with two crossovers if possible. from that I could work in some turnouts and side tracks, I hope the picture comes thru


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## CTValleyRR

So, I'm at work right now, but I'll try to sit down and throw something together this evening. Notice that you still gave a couple of "maybe this, maybe that" answers, so I'll make some assumptions. The biggest issue is that, if you need space for scenery and structures, that's very limiting on the amount and location of track. I will leave them out for now, but recognize that adding them later will probably result in a re-design. I will also design for shorter equipment (tighter curves), so adding anything longer may cause problems.

I will use Atlas sectional track where possible, but recognize that on a double figure 8, this will involve some huge compromises to optimal operating standards (by locating turnouts next to curves, for example).

As far as wire, you should be fine with one feeder -- a 4x8 usually is. For my 12x15, I use 12AWG for the bus wire and 16AWG for feeders. Either solid or stranded works. You may be better served by the flexibility of stranded if you may be moving the layout.


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## CTValleyRR

DCC is great, isn't it? I'm no expert, but when you decide to take the plunge, do some research. MTH went their own way, and their systems have only limited compatibility / interchangeability with stuff (especially decoders) from other manufacturers. The other big players (Digitrax, Lenz, MRC, NCE, TCS) all use an NMRA standard and are fully compatible. I use an MRC Prodigy Wireless system with mostly Digitrax and TCS decoders.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> So, I'm at work right now, but I'll try to sit down and throw something together this evening. Notice that you still gave a couple of "maybe this, maybe that" answers, so I'll make some assumptions. The biggest issue is that, if you need space for scenery and structures, that's very limiting on the amount and location of track. I will leave them out for now, but recognize that adding them later will probably result in a re-design. I will also design for shorter equipment (tighter curves), so adding anything longer may cause problems.
> 
> I will use Atlas sectional track where possible, but recognize that on a double figure 8, this will involve some huge compromises to optimal operating standards (by locating turnouts next to curves, for example).
> 
> As far as wire, you should be fine with one feeder -- a 4x8 usually is. For my 12x15, I use 12AWG for the bus wire and 16AWG for feeders. Either solid or stranded works. You may be better served by the flexibility of stranded if you may be moving the layout.


Did you see the sketch I made? Almost all my trac is atlas snap track 18R curves, gonna see my neighbor to get his PU to go and get the plywood soon


----------



## Bkubiak

Got my new sheet of plywood and started to fool around with it just laying down tracks, getting a feeling that a figure 8 will not work at least it does appear that way


----------



## Big Ed

OP is the kid that was in The Andy Griffith show. 
Just a quick reply as I did not read through everything yet.

You do know that you don't have to go to the "Giants" store to buy wire right?
Home depot or Lowes or whatever you have down there has wire.
By your description of him, it sounds like I wouldn't want to go to his place anyway.

There are a lot of internet places to buy everything you need, wire and train stuff.
Someone here might have stuff for sale too, keep your eyes open.

I will go back and read it all when I get the chance, I did notice the size.
If you could squeeze in a 5'x9' it would be better.

How about posting a diagram of the room? Note windows and doors & closets. Maybe you can do something else then a rectangle.


----------



## Bkubiak

big ed said:


> OP is the kid that was in The Andy Griffith show.
> Just a quick reply as I did not read through everything yet.
> 
> You do know that you don't have to go to the "Giants" store to buy wire right?
> Home depot or Lowes or whatever you have down there has wire.
> By your description of him, it sounds like I wouldn't want to go to his place anyway.
> 
> There are a lot of internet places to buy everything you need, wire and train stuff.
> Someone here might have stuff for sale too, keep your eyes open.
> 
> I will go back and read it all when I get the chance, I did notice the size.
> If you could squeeze in a 5'x9' it would be better.
> 
> How about posting a diagram of the room? Note windows and doors & closets. Maybe you can do something else then a rectangle.


At the moment it is the only spot, got two bikes, three motorcycles, air compressor, picnic table and 4 chairs and a hammond organ. yes 5' x 9' would be better but it looks like it will end up 3 ft 6 inch x 9 ft


----------



## Bkubiak

I went to the "Giants" store today to get a spool of wire, he did not have any, so I asked about grass mat, he did not have any of that either, I mentioned that I was doing it in HO and he said I have a few cars in the back, I followed him into his store room and he had box's and box's of model cars and Lionel stuff from floor to ceiling and he pulled out a little box with about 10 HO Cabooses in it, 2.00 bucks each, so I looked to see if any were lighted, nope, but one had the coupler frame mounted so I bought it and it had metal axles, all the rest were plastic, it rolls easier then the one I have. I see ads for trucks saying the metal axles are on bearings, what kind of bearings could they have?
We talked a little about DCC and he said that Lionel has it all over everyone else with what their stuff does especially with the better steamers and their stuff is compatable and MTH is nice but it is not compatible, I nodded my head like I knew what he was talking about but I did not have a clue, what is he talking about this compatibility stuff.


----------



## MtRR75

Bkubiak said:


> At the moment it is the only spot, got two bikes, three motorcycles, air compressor, picnic table and 4 chairs and a hammond organ. yes 5' x 9' would be better but it looks like it will end up 3 ft 6 inch x 9 ft


Layouts do not have to be rectangular. If you could stretch the width near the ends a few more inches (and leave the center at 3 ft 6 inches), you will have more options for turn arounds at the ends.. You can also round the corners without sacrificing layout options.


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## Big Ed

Bkubiak said:


> At the moment it is the only spot, got two bikes, three motorcycles, air compressor, picnic table and 4 chairs and a hammond organ. yes 5' x 9' would be better but it looks like it will end up 3 ft 6 inch x 9 ft


Let me see if I have this right, you have that ALL on a porch? Where the trains are going to be?

If so, what you need is a nice shed for all of them, then it sounds like you would have a ton of room for the trains.


Sell the organ.
The picnic table and 4 chairs are for out in the yard?
The 3 scooters and 2 bicycles and air compressor go in the new shed. 

Look at all the room I got you, and with the organ gone you have all that money for the RR!:thumbsup:


----------



## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> I went to the "Giants" store today to get a spool of wire, he did not have any, so I asked about grass mat, he did not have any of that either, I mentioned that I was doing it in HO and he said I have a few cars in the back, I followed him into his store room and he had box's and box's of model cars and Lionel stuff from floor to ceiling and he pulled out a little box with about 10 HO Cabooses in it, 2.00 bucks each, so I looked to see if any were lighted, nope, but one had the coupler frame mounted so I bought it and it had metal axles, all the rest were plastic, it rolls easier then the one I have. I see ads for trucks saying the metal axles are on bearings, what kind of bearings could they have?
> We talked a little about DCC and he said that Lionel has it all over everyone else with what their stuff does especially with the better steamers and their stuff is compatable and MTH is nice but it is not compatible, I nodded my head like I knew what he was talking about but I did not have a clue, what is he talking about this compatibility stuff.


As I said before, I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like he just wants to sell you what he has in the store. See my earlier post for a discussion of the compatibility issue.


----------



## Bkubiak

big ed said:


> Let me see if I have this right, you have that ALL on a porch? Where the trains are going to be?
> 
> If so, what you need is a nice shed for all of them, then it sounds like you would have a ton of room for the trains.
> 
> 
> Sell the organ.
> The picnic table and 4 chairs are for out in the yard?
> The 3 scooters and 2 bicycles and air compressor go in the new shed.
> 
> Look at all the room I got you, and with the organ gone you have all that money for the RR!:thumbsup:


The organ is KAPUT I paid 6K for it 30 years ago, the wood cabinet is nice, real cherry wood, thinking to tear it apart for the wood. my wife thinks I could cut it up and make a bench for the foot of the bed. Screw that gonna try to sell the good parts of the organ like the speakers or just give the damn thing away to anyone that wants to come and haul it off. Got a shed and it is full of crap like mowers and generators and boat stuff, do need another one, and then can get the scooters and bikes out, the table and chairs stay, as you northerners say, it is a 3 season room, except we don't use it in the summer, too damn hot, don't know why the compressed is there it is normally in the shed, almost forgot the pressure washer is there too and it belongs in the shed.


----------



## Big Ed

Your wife is right, you ought to try to save the wood.

One thing I was going to mention is what effect the weather down there will have on the trains out there.
But I didn't want to pop any bubbles. 

Extreme heat and the humidity are really not good for the train layouts.


----------



## MtRR75

Bkubiak said:


> The organ is KAPUT I paid 6K for it 30 years ago, the wood cabinet is nice, real cherry wood, thinking to tear it apart for the wood. my wife thinks I could cut it up and make a bench for the foot of the bed. Screw that gonna try to sell the good parts of the organ like the speakers or just give the damn thing away to anyone that wants to come and haul it off.


This is definitely off-topic, but I can't resist.

Our small church has a hammond organ that is over 40 years old, and my wife is one of our organists. Recently the organ started acting up. We found an organ-repair guy who said that old Hammond organs are built like tanks -- and relatively easy to repair. The electronic parts are relatively simple. The value of Hammonds is the sound generating mechanisms, which are all mechanical. He has been troubleshooting our organ and replacing capacitors and resisters, and it sounds like new. He has made two trips (from an hour away) and parts and labor have cost us around $500 to $600.

My point is. If you really want a working organ, it may not be that expensive to repair. If not, you might be able to sell it for significant bucks -- to someone who knows the value of old Hammond organs.


----------



## Big Ed

As long as we are side tracked, What model do you have?
I found this,
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Hammond-Org...-Value-And-How-Much-/10000000014736202/g.html


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## CTValleyRR

OK, let's start the party!

Here is what you were talking about. The green rectangle is your plywood. Grid is 1' square.










With 18" sectional curves, it doesn't fit. Nor does it with 15" Radius curves: 










Although you COULD squeeze that in on a standard 4x8 sheet of plywood, I would not recommend 15" radius curves to anyone.

Now... using a little design license with the information you gave, how about something like this:










You can run continuously, and there is room for some industries by rearranging all the spur tracks to suit. As drawn, you would need to put plexiglass guard rails on the long edges to keep equipment from falling off, because the tracks are too close to the edge. Or you could shorten it by eliminating the 9" sections marked with the red X's, and it would fit on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Now, the blue line down the middle is a scenic backdrop, enabling you to divide the layout into two independent sections and put different scenery on each side, creating a lot more interest on the layout. You could build this layout as drawn, but it was really just a 2 hour SWAG, and it requires a bunch of little pieces of track to make everything come out right (some of the joints are fudged slightly, but you can get away with this with sectional track (my software prevents too much fudging). You could cut small pieces of flex track to get it just so. I used remote control snap switches, so you could wire them to be operated from a panel so you didn't have to chase your train around to line switches. Also, any of the stub leads could be isolated so you could store a loco or two on the track without having to derail it to keep it from moving when you were operating another one (in DCC, the isolation is not required).

Obviously, this is far from perfect, but it might get the ideas flowing.


----------



## Bkubiak

big ed said:


> As long as we are side tracked, What model do you have?
> I found this,
> http://www.ebay.com/gds/Hammond-Org...-Value-And-How-Much-/10000000014736202/g.html


It's an aurora classic, it is an lsi Large scale integrated circuits and the main power board go shorted out by of all things a Lizard was in the wrong place at the right time when it was turned on and bzzzzzzzzzzzzz he and the boated got died.
It is beautiful and I kept it as a nice piece of furniture for 15 years. now it has to go


----------



## Bkubiak

Bkubiak said:


> It's an aurora classic, it is an lsi Large scale integrated circuits and the main power board go shorted out by of all things a Lizard was in the wrong place at the right time when it was turned on and bzzzzzzzzzzzzz he and the boated got died.
> It is beautiful and I kept it as a nice piece of furniture for 15 years. now it has to go


I am starting to hate auto correct, will you look at that english 

I wrote (he and the board got fried)


----------



## Bkubiak

Finally figured I cannot build a continuous twice around track with a figure 8 inside the main loop using cross tracks because of all the wiring issues and turnout use etc. So I decided to raise part of the track on a trestle and run it elevated for a while so track can pass under in two places before it comes down. Now the issue is what is the best and sturdiest trestle set to look for other then spending the time to build one my self. Being elevated will also allow me to run several spur tracks some length under the over pass.
I went to RTR store today and bought what many of you suggested, an HO track gauge, track nails, two switch control box's, assorted pieces of track and track connectors, wire, and a grass mat, now I just got the track sorta laying out on the table the way I think it will work, I am temp running trains on the outer loop. I thought that the graduated ready to go trestle set would be a quick way to go but I don't see any elevated sets once I get it up in the air to run for 5 feet or so before it comes back down, any ideas?


----------



## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> OK, let's start the party!
> 
> Here is what you were talking about. The green rectangle is your plywood. Grid is 1' square.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With 18" sectional curves, it doesn't fit. Nor does it with 15" Radius curves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although you COULD squeeze that in on a standard 4x8 sheet of plywood, I would not recommend 15" radius curves to anyone.
> 
> Now... using a little design license with the information you gave, how about something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can run continuously, and there is room for some industries by rearranging all the spur tracks to suit. As drawn, you would need to put plexiglass guard rails on the long edges to keep equipment from falling off, because the tracks are too close to the edge. Or you could shorten it by eliminating the 9" sections marked with the red X's, and it would fit on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Now, the blue line down the middle is a scenic backdrop, enabling you to divide the layout into two independent sections and put different scenery on each side, creating a lot more interest on the layout. You could build this layout as drawn, but it was really just a 2 hour SWAG, and it requires a bunch of little pieces of track to make everything come out right (some of the joints are fudged slightly, but you can get away with this with sectional track (my software prevents too much fudging). You could cut small pieces of flex track to get it just so. I used remote control snap switches, so you could wire them to be operated from a panel so you didn't have to chase your train around to line switches. Also, any of the stub leads could be isolated so you could store a loco or two on the track without having to derail it to keep it from moving when you were operating another one (in DCC, the isolation is not required).
> 
> Obviously, this is far from perfect, but it might get the ideas flowing.


This stuff is great how didid you do that? I downloaded a track program called SCRAM and I can not get it to work right, things don't move around the way I would like them too, I figured out a layout and tomorrow I will clip it all together but it requires a two level setup, one continuous track twice around about 35 foot of track and it will fit on a 4 x 8 board. I actually came up with two ways to do it, one with a figure 8 and one without, I'm sorta liking the one without.


----------



## MtRR75

I've been looking at CTValleyRR's suggested layout. As for running trains, it gives you options. If you don't allow trains to cross over from one loop to the other at the double turnouts (at the bottom right), you can run the full double loop as a long mainline. If you want a challenge, use the double turnouts as a crossover and then run two trains at once -- one on the inner loop and one on the outer loop. The challenge will be to keep them from running into each other at either of the crossovers. I actually like those kinds of challenges.

However, both of these scenarios require you to keep switching turnouts. If you want an unattended train running a loop, you can run either the inner loop train or the outer loop train by itself.


----------



## Big Ed

It's an aurora classic, it is an lsi Large scale integrated circuits and the main power board go shorted out by of all things a Lizard was in the wrong place at the right time when it was turned on and bzzzzzzzzzzzzz he and the boated got died.
It is beautiful and I kept it as a nice piece of furniture for 15 years. now it has to go





Bkubiak said:


> I am starting to hate auto correct, will you look at that english
> 
> I wrote (he and the board got fried)


Does make you sound kind of strange. 

A lizard?


----------



## Bkubiak

MtRR75 said:


> I've been looking at CTValleyRR's suggested layout. As for running trains, it gives you options. If you don't allow trains to cross over from one loop to the other at the double turnouts (at the bottom right), you can run the full double loop as a long mainline. If you want a challenge, use the double turnouts as a crossover and then run two trains at once -- one on the inner loop and one on the outer loop. The challenge will be to keep them from running into each other at either of the crossovers. I actually like those kinds of challenges.
> 
> However, both of these scenarios require you to keep switching turnouts. If you want an unattended train running a loop, you can run either the inner loop train or the outer loop train by itself.


I mocked up what I was wanting and slapped it together just to see if I could make it work and YES it works. I used all 9 inch straights, (Almost) also 3ea 6 inch and 1 3 inch and all the turns were 18R snap track It is all fitting nicely on my new sheet of 4 x 8.
here is two cell phone pictures. 
I made my temp trestle from some foam I had laying around which I cut with an electric knife and sized it on a table saw, I cut some roadbed for the straights out of door skin which I also had. Gonna have to make some door skin roadbed to support the track in the long curve, I will have to cut that with my jigsaw.
There is plenty of room for several turnouts to sidings to park cars. I think this layout will allow for making a hill or something with a tunnel in the corner opposite the transformer


----------



## Big Ed

Go back click edit, then click advanced edit, then up top click the white smile face, then click insert all.
Your pictures will show as a picture instead of a clickable link.
Easier for all to have a look, especially if the thread gets long and you have a lot of pictures.

You only have a few hours to edit the post.

Colorful keys on the organ.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bkubiak

big ed said:


> Go back click edit, then click advanced edit, then up top click the white smile face, then click insert all.
> Your pictures will show as a picture instead of a clickable link.
> Easier for all to have a look, especially if the thread gets long and you have a lot of pictures.
> 
> You only have a few hours to edit the post.
> 
> Colorful keys on the organ.:thumbsup:


Thanks for the tip, I did not know how to post the pic, I tried stuff I do on other forums but it did not work, I guess every forum has it's own quirks.

When folks see the pics I am hoping to get some ideas about that elevated circle, gonna look on e bay for a nice set of trestles to raise and lower the track so it will look better then foam blocks. I am goona try to put that layout on that SCARM program I have, so I can remember where everything goes once I break this down, still gotta reinforce the bottom of the table and get taller legs on it


----------



## MtRR75

First of all, you are where I was a number of years ago, when my kids wanted trains. They had no patience for constructing a layout with permanently attached track and scenery. They just wanted to run trains on track --- and change the layout from time to time. So we set up a 4x8 sheet of plywood for just that purpose. They got a trestle set and set up something very similar to what you are doing. The pre-made trestle sets have some drawback -- at least ours did. You might be able to find a better set, but let me outline the problems – so that you can anticipate them.

1. Our trestle set was designed to hook directly onto the track ties. That requires you to have a trestle at each sectional track junction. If you don’t support the junctions, they will sag badly and cars will derail and the loco may even lose its power contact.

2. On curved sections, when the loco went over the section, the weight caused the track to twist and sag. We had to add “in between-height” trestles (made from blocks of wood) to support the curve.

3. Our trestle set was designed to raise each section by the same amount – meaning that there was sudden transition from flat to a constant slope at the bottom and top ends of the trestle. This also caused loco contact issues. You need an easement – a gradually transition from flat to sloped. (We inserted layers of cardboard under the junctions that were approaching the trestle.)

4. With no way to nail the track to the trestle, the sectional track gradually separated, and had to be constantly shoved back together.

In your situation, the foam blocks are probably your best bet. Get a piece of sheet foam insulation from Home Depot – Two inch thick is probably best. Make each trestle piece thick enough that you can nail both pieces of track to the trestle. This will hold the track together and the trestle to the track. You can paint the Styrofoam gray to look like concrete to improve the appearance.

You can also improve your trestle significantly by using some kind of roadbed material – such as 1/4 inch plywood strips attached to the top of the trestles. This would support your track junctions, eliminate the need for extra trestles on curves. It would also enable you to adjust the spacing of your trestles (e.g. spread them out for a more gradual grade).

Speaking of grade, your trestle looks like it has pretty steep grade. How steep is too steep? Too steep is when your train can not climb the trestle or does so with rapidly spinning loco wheels. Long trains and heavy cars need more gradual slopes. And curves add resistance, so the slope on a curve should be a little less than on the straight parts.

If the top of the trestle is at one end of the table and the bottom at the other end (like yours), you can raise the end of the table with the low track a small distance. Now the trestle has a slightly lower slope, but the “level” track is no longer level, but slightly sloped in the other direction. If you don’t’ make too big of a change, nobody will notice, unless they notice that your “level” trains run a little faster in one direction than in the other.


----------



## Bkubiak

MtRR75 said:


> First of all, you are where I was a number of years ago, when my kids wanted trains. They had no patience for constructing a layout with permanently attached track and scenery. They just wanted to run trains on track --- and change the layout from time to time. So we set up a 4x8 sheet of plywood for just that purpose. They got a trestle set and set up something very similar to what you are doing. The pre-made trestle sets have some drawback -- at least ours did. You might be able to find a better set, but let me outline the problems – so that you can anticipate them.
> 
> 1. Our trestle set was designed to hook directly onto the track ties. That requires you to have a trestle at each sectional track junction. If you don’t support the junctions, they will sag badly and cars will derail and the loco may even lose its power contact.
> 
> 2. On curved sections, when the loco went over the section, the weight caused the track to twist and sag. We had to add “in between-height” trestles (made from blocks of wood) to support the curve.
> 
> 3. Our trestle set was designed to raise each section by the same amount – meaning that there was sudden transition from flat to a constant slope at the bottom and top ends of the trestle. This also caused loco contact issues. You need an easement – a gradually transition from flat to sloped. (We inserted layers of cardboard under the junctions that were approaching the trestle.)
> 
> 4. With no way to nail the track to the trestle, the sectional track gradually separated, and had to be constantly shoved back together.
> 
> In your situation, the foam blocks are probably your best bet. Get a piece of sheet foam insulation from Home Depot – Two inch thick is probably best. Make each trestle piece thick enough that you can nail both pieces of track to the trestle. This will hold the track together and the trestle to the track. You can paint the Styrofoam gray to look like concrete to improve the appearance.
> 
> You can also improve your trestle significantly by using some kind of roadbed material – such as 1/4 inch plywood strips attached to the top of the trestles. This would support your track junctions, eliminate the need for extra trestles on curves. It would also enable you to adjust the spacing of your trestles (e.g. spread them out for a more gradual grade).
> 
> Speaking of grade, your trestle looks like it has pretty steep grade. How steep is too steep? Too steep is when your train can not climb the trestle or does so with rapidly spinning loco wheels. Long trains and heavy cars need more gradual slopes. And curves add resistance, so the slope on a curve should be a little less than on the straight parts.
> 
> If the top of the trestle is at one end of the table and the bottom at the other end (like yours), you can raise the end of the table with the low track a small distance. Now the trestle has a slightly lower slope, but the “level” track is no longer level, but slightly sloped in the other direction. If you don’t’ make too big of a change, nobody will notice, unless they notice that your “level” trains run a little faster in one direction than in the other.


I anticipated many of the issues you mentioned and I did make some road bed from 1/8 door skin plywood. The length of each rise and fall is in 8 standard track lengths or a rise of 3 inch in 72 inch of track. I did not seem to steep to me, I ran my loco very slow and it went up and down with no problems. I made the height of the road 3 inch which gives me a little over a half inch clearance for the train to pass under. It will be a little less when the cork is down. I want to have it so the loco is down on the table before it hits a turn. I think a descending turn is a disaster waiting to happen. I was wondering if any particular manufactured trestle set can have my thin plywood used as a bed with cork roadbed on it and the track on that. I do not want the track separating or flexing anywhere. I would also want a trestle set that has feet that can be screwed down to the table. I was looking at different sets but the descriptions leave a lot to be desired. In the top picture the rise or drop starts right at the overpass and the other drop or rise start just before the overpass near the loco, you can also see the plywood roadbed I made just temp hanging on by it's fingernails, I wanted to see the darn thing work before I take it all apart. I am trying to put it all on that SCARM program so I can remember where all the shorter 6 inch and 3 inch pieces go


----------



## MtRR75

1/8" door plywood should be fine -- more flexible than 1/4" for easements.

Your rise calculates out to a little over 4%, which is pretty steep. The question is not whether loco can get up the hill, but will the loco be able to pull the train up the hill? If not, you can try adjusting your consist -- lighter weight cars, cars with the least rolling resistance. Or you could do what real railroads to -- buy another, similar loco and double-head the train.

Your point about derailments is well taken. It is one of the many corollaries of Murphy's Law that a train will always derail in the worst place possible (edge of the layout, inside a tunnel, in an unreachable back corner, etc.)

I currently have a 4 x 8 layout with track very near the sides. I put 3" wide strips of clear acrylic plastic (like Plexiglas) around the whole table. With mounting, it only sticks up about 2" above the side, but it is enough to catch anything that jumps the rails, while still allowing for an unobstructed view of the layout


----------



## Bkubiak

MtRR75 said:


> 1/8" door plywood should be fine -- more flexible than 1/4" for easements.
> 
> Your rise calculates out to a little over 4%, which is pretty steep. The question is not whether loco can get up the hill, but will the loco be able to pull the train up the hill? If not, you can try adjusting your consist -- lighter weight cars, cars with the least rolling resistance. Or you could do what real railroads to -- buy another, similar loco and double-head the train.
> 
> Your point about derailments is well taken. It is one of the many corollaries of Murphy's Law that a train will always derail in the worst place possible (edge of the layout, inside a tunnel, in an unreachable back corner, etc.)
> 
> I currently have a 4 x 8 layout with track very near the sides. I put 3" wide strips of clear acrylic plastic (like Plexiglas) around the whole table. With mounting, it only sticks up about 2" above the side, but it is enough to catch anything that jumps the rails, while still allowing for an unobstructed view of the layout


I actually have another exact loco, I was given two non runners by a member here and managed to get one running, had to install new drive gears, traction tires, change trucks so I could have couplers at each end resolder broken wires and damn I connected the pick up wires diff, each train wants to run opposite the other, Murphy again, it was a real bear getting those motors back together maybe I can resolder the red and blue wires without melting any plastic so they run in the same direction.


----------



## Bkubiak

I cannot make the layout work on this SCARM program. when choosing atlas snap track which is what I have they give me two choices of 18" radius track one is 18" 30 degrees and the other is 18" 15 degrees which one should I use?


----------



## CTValleyRR

Hi, everyone. I've been off camping witht the Boy Scouts and have missed a few days. I'll try to catch up.

I did my layouts using a commercial software product called Anyrail, available at www.anyrail.com for $60. It's like SCARM, but much better, although SCARM should work for what you're trying to do. The 18"30 degree segments are the 1/12th of a circle, the appoximately 9" long standard curves. The 15 degree ones are half that length. You probably have the 30's.

It looks like you're making progress, which is good. Inclines like you are doing are fraught with problems, as MtRR says. Most of us have learned the hard way to avoid 4% grades like the plague, but you're going to have to use them to do what you're attempting. 3" of clearance in HO is adequate for almost everything.

I recommend you look at Woodland Scenics incline starters and risers. They are pricey, but will enable you to make smooth inclines which fully support your track. They are not trestles, but actual slopes, and you need to cut out sections for tracks to pass under. They don't really work with track nails. Trace outlines and glue them to your plywood, glue the roadbed to the foam, and the track to the roadbed.

If you listen to Woodland Scenics, you will think you need all kinds of special tools and adhesives, which they conveniently happen to sell. You don't. Anything that will cut foam (pretty much anything) and any adhesive that is safe for foam, including hot glues, will work fine.


----------



## Bkubiak

Woodland scenics, thanks that's a new one for me, I'll check it out.

Now that I have the track layout I want I am moving over to the buildings and structures thread to see what ideas I can get there

Thanks for all the help here


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## CTValleyRR

I lose track of the recommendations sometimes. Have we told you to get a Walthers Sourcebook (catalog)? Walthers is the largest distributor of model railroading stuff in North America. While they don't carry every brand or manufacturer, a look through their sourcebook, which is the size of the phone book for a small city, will give you a much better ideal of what is available. They cost $15, and many hobby shops carry them (or you can oder online direct at www.walthers.com . The 2015 edition should be out any day now.

EDIT: Apparently they now call it the Reference Book.


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## MtRR75

CTValleyRR said:


> I recommend you look at Woodland Scenics incline starters and risers. They are pricey, but will enable you to make smooth inclines which fully support your track. They are not trestles, but actual slopes, and you need to cut out sections for tracks to pass under.


Just to add to what CTValleyRR said about Woodland Scenics risers. As you will see from their website, their risers are not meant to be seen, but to be covered (on the sides) with plaster cloth or other material that is then painted to look like rock or soil -- sometimes covered with vegetation. This may be more than you want to get into regarding scenery.

One shortcut you might consider would be to wrap the side walls of the Woodland Scenics risers with poster board, then paint the board gray to mimic concrete. You could add some cracks and a few weeds growing out of the cracks for realism. Then instead of a long trestle, your train would be riding on elevated soil and rock held together by a retaining wall.


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## Bkubiak

MtRR75 said:


> Just to add to what CTValleyRR said about Woodland Scenics risers. As you will see from their website, their risers are not meant to be seen, but to be covered (on the sides) with plaster cloth or other material that is then painted to look like rock or soil -- sometimes covered with vegetation. This may be more than you want to get into regarding scenery.
> 
> One shortcut you might consider would be to wrap the side walls of the Woodland Scenics risers with poster board, then paint the board gray to mimic concrete. You could add some cracks and a few weeds growing out of the cracks for realism. Then instead of a long trestle, your train would be riding on elevated soil and rock held together by a retaining wall.


I down loaded their catalog and they have exactly what I what for the inclines, risers, track bed, and the corner hill with a tunnel that I had in mind but had no clue how to build, they even had videos showing me how to do it all. Don't need all their special tools and special glues, I have a hot glue gun and know which adhesive caulk to get from HD for glueing foam.
Since I want a 3 inch rise I have to get their 4 inch risers and the 3 degree inclines and declines, the risers I can cut on the table saw to 3 inch height and the 3 degree incline is 8 ft long to rise 4 inch, it is in two food increments so at 6 ft is rises to 3 inch perfect for what I want to do and I can uses the extra sections cut to 3 inch in case the riser sections are not long enough for my turn.


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## CTValleyRR

I'm not sure I follow you, but I think you missed something somewhere. For the risers, to get a three inch height, you simply stack a 1" and a 2". They used to have a product called Incline Starters. You do the slope up to 2" height, then use a riser underneath a second starter piece, which you would cut off when the height reached 1". No cutting required on the tops of the inclines. I don't think a table saw would cut foam very well, although you're welcome to try it and let me know what happens (if you still have enough fingers to type, that is).

Your incline percent is rise over run, so with a 4% slope, you require 50 linear inches to achieve 2" of elevation; 75" for the full 3" (that's measuring the track, not the straight line distance), at 3 degrees, you need 100 inches, plus another 100 to go back down. That's 200", or 16' 8" (more than the distance up and back on your plywood). I think if you check your measurements, you need the 4% inclines. If Woodland Scenics is saying their 3 degree risers rise 4" in 8x (96"), they're wrong (or the slope is more like 4.1%).

Also, if you're going to use a slope that steep, a best practice is to use an easement, that is, start and end the slope with an more gradual incline.


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## Magic

I wouldn't even think about cutting WS risers on a table saw, you'll never keep it straight and end up with an uneven track bed that will cause all kinds of problems later. I know I tried cutting them and it just didn't work and that was with a hot foam cutter and a jig. It doesn't take much of a hump to mess up your track. Especially on a turn. 

CTValleyRR's one and two inch risers with starter inclines is a much better idea. 

You might be able to take your lower level track and rise it one inch and slop down to zero at the crossover point and using a grade from one inch to two inches for the upper level.
That will give you three inches at the crossover and hopefully not such a steep grade. Biggest problem with that is any turnouts need to be flat for several inches on either side of the turnout. 
Turnouts don't work to good of they are not very flat. Also makes scenery such as track side buildings a problem as well.

Magic


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## Bkubiak

Magic said:


> I wouldn't even think about cutting WS risers on a table saw, you'll never keep it straight and end up with an uneven track bed that will cause all kinds of problems later. I know I tried cutting them and it just didn't work and that was with a hot foam cutter and a jig. It doesn't take much of a hump to mess up your track. Especially on a turn.
> 
> CTValleyRR's one and two inch risers with starter inclines is a much better idea.
> 
> You might be able to take your lower level track and rise it one inch and slop down to zero at the crossover point and using a grade from one inch to two inches for the upper level.
> That will give you three inches at the crossover and hopefully not such a steep grade. Biggest problem with that is any turnouts need to be flat for several inches on either side of the turnout.
> Turnouts don't work to good of they are not very flat. Also makes scenery such as track side buildings a problem as well.
> 
> Magic


I will look again at the diagrams of the risers and inclines, but from memory the 3 degree incline rises in two ft sections from zero to 4.5 inch. There is one section which ends at 3 inch which is the height I want, the risers are available in 1-2 or 4 inch heights and also come in sections of two feet long. It will be a cinch for me to cut the 4 inch down perfectly straight on my table saw with a fine plywood blade to 3 inch. I would need to buy two inclines of 3 degrees and one 4 inch riser section. The two feet section of each incline that I will not use rise from 3 inch to 4 inch and I can cut easily cut them to 3 inch also, that would give me about 8 feet of 3 inch riser and two each 6 ft long inclines, which should work out. I have to go back to that woodland site and look at the diagrams again and print them all out to be sure of the measurements before I order them.

Once I get the table all sorted out and right side up I guess I have to once again lay out all the track and then I think I will have to trace out in pencil on the plywood all the tracks. I have to glue the foam inclines and risers to the wood. Not sure but I think the foam parts are 2.5 inch wide so I have to allow for that and find a centerline or outside lines to guide me in glueing that down so the track will lay out correctly on it. Woodland also has rolls of track bedding that are about the same cost as cork but according to them easier to work with, has anyone used that at all.


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## CTValleyRR

Dude, I'm not disparaging your woodworking skills, by any means, but it will NOT be a cinch. Wood is rigid, and for the most part stays put while you rip it. Not so styrofoam. The risers are designed to be flexible side to side, and even if you put a piece of lumber on top of them to minimize that, your plywood blade with what 120 teeth or so, and spinning at a couple of thousand rpm will rip huge chunks out of that foam, and probably break it as well (even a razor saw with that many teeth per INCH and maybe 20 "rpms" takes out some chunks). You're quibbling about what, $9, for a second set of risers? Your time and peace of mind have value too. This isn't the place to go cheap. Buy the risers.

Percent incline is a math drill, and WS fudges their numbers a little. See my previous post. 2 feet at a 4% incline gives you a rise of a little less than an inch; WS fudges the incline to about 4.06 to give you an even ratio of 2' run for 1" rise. Likewise with the 3% inclines, which are 3/4" over 24" (3.125%)

If you want to use the incline set instead of the starters and risers (which are more versatile but cost a little more), simply don't use the final two pieces of the incline set, so that your elevation is at 3" (3/4" per 2' of incline). Your cost would be $40 at MSRP for the two incline sets, and yes, you would have some left over (the highest two pieces of each set). You also need something to hold your track at the 3" height, so you can either buy 1 set of 1" risers and one set of 2" risers ($20) or 1 set of 4" for $12 and risk disaster trying to cut them (thus risking $12 to save $9). An alternative to the risers would be to get a 2'x8' extruded foam insulation board at your home improvement store, 1 each in 2" and 1" thicknesses will give you that same 3" thickness, for about $45, but you'd have a lot of leftover material, and this stuff is terrific for building scenery.

The width of the risers and inclines will be about 1/2" on either side of your track. Trace the track onto your plywood, and mark the extra width of the risers in tic marks every foot of so. The design of the inclines / risers will help you make nice, smooth curves between them. You can also tack the inclines down with their pins, or any other small nail (I use small brads tapped in about 1/8"). Lay your track on top of that, and when you're happy trace one side of the incline / riser and use that for a guide.

The WS foam roadbed is generally my go-to product for under track, as I much prefer it to cork, but many people will disagree with me on that. This is one of those Ford vs. Chevy arguments, and you really just have to try it and see for yourself.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Dude, I'm not disparaging your woodworking skills, by any means, but it will NOT be a cinch. Wood is rigid, and for the most part stays put while you rip it. Not so styrofoam. The risers are designed to be flexible side to side, and even if you put a piece of lumber on top of them to minimize that, your plywood blade with what 120 teeth or so, and spinning at a couple of thousand rpm will rip huge chunks out of that foam, and probably break it as well (even a razor saw with that many teeth per INCH and maybe 20 "rpms" takes out some chunks). You're quibbling about what, $9, for a second set of risers? Your time and peace of mind have value too. This isn't the place to go cheap. Buy the risers.
> 
> Percent incline is a math drill, and WS fudges their numbers a little. See my previous post. 2 feet at a 4% incline gives you a rise of a little less than an inch; WS fudges the incline to about 4.06 to give you an even ratio of 2' run for 1" rise. Likewise with the 3% inclines, which are 3/4" over 24" (3.125%)
> 
> If you want to use the incline set instead of the starters and risers (which are more versatile but cost a little more), simply don't use the final two pieces of the incline set, so that your elevation is at 3" (3/4" per 2' of incline). Your cost would be $40 at MSRP for the two incline sets, and yes, you would have some left over (the highest two pieces of each set). You also need something to hold your track at the 3" height, so you can either buy 1 set of 1" risers and one set of 2" risers ($20) or 1 set of 4" for $12 and risk disaster trying to cut them (thus risking $12 to save $9). An alternative to the risers would be to get a 2'x8' extruded foam insulation board at your home improvement store, 1 each in 2" and 1" thicknesses will give you that same 3" thickness, for about $45, but you'd have a lot of leftover material, and this stuff is terrific for building scenery.
> 
> The width of the risers and inclines will be about 1/2" on either side of your track. Trace the track onto your plywood, and mark the extra width of the risers in tic marks every foot of so. The design of the inclines / risers will help you make nice, smooth curves between them. You can also tack the inclines down with their pins, or any other small nail (I use small brads tapped in about 1/8"). Lay your track on top of that, and when you're happy trace one side of the incline / riser and use that for a guide.
> 
> The WS foam roadbed is generally my go-to product for under track, as I much prefer it to cork, but many people will disagree with me on that. This is one of those Ford vs. Chevy arguments, and you really just have to try it and see for yourself.


If you look close at the pictures of foam blocks on post # 61 especially the tops you will see how smoothly my table saw cuts thru foam. That foam was packing from an automatic paper towel dispenser my wife just had to have. You hold your hand up to the dispenser and it spits out paper towels. Really cool. 

Anyway, I cut it up into sheets that were usable and then cut them into blocks all 3 inch tall except the incline ones. Those I whacked 3/16 off each next one until it got too close for comfort. If I had used one of those so call thin plywood blades it shreds foam into pieces. I know I tried it a few times.

I checked every video on that WS web site and then every video on You Tube on how to install the risers, inclines, track bedding and finally track and it seems that everything glues down, even the track, using DAP or any foam adhesive caulk or their low heat glue gun. I assume that someone somewhere has some decorative facing I can glue up on those risers and inclines to finish them off.

Once I finish the table I have to mock it all up again with the track and draw on the plywood with a pencil where everything goes. Have you any idea how many holes I punched in my thumb installing those new track connectors? while trying to push them on the track I discovered the other end was pushing into my thumb


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## CTValleyRR

The WS risers are not a solid block, but kind of a block z pattern. They don't have any rigidity in the direction you'd be cutting. Never the less, I've said my piece. I'll take an "I told you so" card on that subject.

Get a Walthers' Resource Book. It will really open your eyes to what's out there. I could rattle off a dozen options for covering the risers off the top of my head. It all depends on how much effort you're willing to put in, how much you want to pay, and how realistic you want it.

Use a small pair of needle nose pliers to install rail joiners if you want to have fingers left when you're done. A pair of nitrile work gloves (10 for $10 at HD) also works well.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> The WS risers are not a solid block, but kind of a block z pattern. They don't have any rigidity in the direction you'd be cutting. Never the less, I've said my piece. I'll take an "I told you so" card on that subject.
> 
> Get a Walthers' Resource Book. It will really open your eyes to what's out there. I could rattle off a dozen options for covering the risers off the top of my head. It all depends on how much effort you're willing to put in, how much you want to pay, and how realistic you want it.
> 
> Use a small pair of needle nose pliers to install rail joiners if you want to have fingers left when you're done. A pair of nitrile work gloves (10 for $10 at HD) also works well.


I would like to cover the risers and inclines with something easy, something cheap, something that looks like stonework, very little effort, I was liking that plaster cloth they have, pin it in place and wet it, let it dry. The video on that stuff was very interesting.

As far as foam, I have actually been cutting it for years, fitting it in wall insulation on block walls between 1 x 2's and fitting it in walls on RV repairs, built in insulated beer coolers on fishing boats. Those cheap 120 tooth plywood blades set up a sort of a dynamic wobble as they spin, you cannot get a real good cut with them even on thin plywood, you gotta use a 60 tooth carbide precision blade, boocoo bucks and you cannot force it past the blade, like you do with wood, you gotta go slow and let the blade do the work, but every now and then I manage to turn something to dust. You never use those blades for heavy cutting, like 2 x 4's or 3/4 inch PT plywood. 
Even today I managed to hurt myself cutting a small piece of 1/2 plywood about 6 inch long by 3 inch wide, I was halving it long way and when is was thru I hit the stop switch and backed off watching the blade spin down against that one piece between the blade and the fence and all of a sudden the blade grabbed it and threw it back, it hit the wall behind me and bounced back hitting me in the back of my arm producing a small painful cut. On a table saw pain normally means blood. 

The 3 degree incline to a 3 inch rise I want requires 8 ft and as you say there is two sections left over which I can use as risers or use as rocks or something


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## CTValleyRR

Ouch! And it was only a rebound off the wall! The only thing that scares me more than my table saw is my router table! A chunk of wood once flew off mine, narrowly missing my son, and shattered on the concrete wall 8 feet away. I don't want to think what would have happened if it had hit him.

Plaster cloth is a great construction material. You can get the same stuff more cheaply at craft stores, and at school and medical supply companies for even less (although sometimes you have to buy a lot from those places).

You might look at a couple of other options. Foam or rubber rock faces, wall cards, or hydrocal retaining walls. The ultimate cheapo option is to find a stonework picture or pattern that appeals to you, print it on cardstock, and glue it to the risers / inclines. There are plenty of free pictures of stonework on-line.


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## Bkubiak

Bkubiak said:


> I would like to cover the risers and inclines with something easy, something cheap, something that looks like stonework, very little effort, I was liking that plaster cloth they have, pin it in place and wet it, let it dry. The video on that stuff was very interesting.
> 
> As far as foam, I have actually been cutting it for years, fitting it in wall insulation on block walls between 1 x 2's and fitting it in walls on RV repairs, built in insulated beer coolers on fishing boats. Those cheap 120 tooth plywood blades set up a sort of a dynamic wobble as they spin, you cannot get a real good cut with them even on thin plywood, you gotta use a 60 tooth carbide precision blade, boocoo bucks and you cannot force it past the blade, like you do with wood, you gotta go slow and let the blade do the work, but every now and then I manage to turn something to dust. You never use those blades for heavy cutting, like 2 x 4's or 3/4 inch PT plywood.
> Even today I managed to hurt myself cutting a small piece of 1/2 plywood about 6 inch long by 3 inch wide, I was halving it long way and when is was thru I hit the stop switch and backed off watching the blade spin down against that one piece between the blade and the fence and all of a sudden the blade grabbed it and threw it back, it hit the wall behind me and bounced back hitting me in the back of my arm producing a small painful cut. On a table saw pain normally means blood.
> 
> The 3 degree incline to a 3 inch rise I want requires 8 ft and as you say there is two sections left over which I can use as risers or use as rocks or something


The question of wether or not the foam inclines and risers can be cut on a table saw is now answered. I ordered from Woodland Scenics two each 3 degree inclines and two each 4 inch riser sets and they arrived today. So naturally I wanted to know if the sections I will not be using could be cut down to 3 inch risers. There are 6 two foot sections to to up 4 inch and I was gonna use 4 sections which terminate at 3 inch and wondered if I could cut the remaining two sections down to 3 inch. I Could and I did and I ended up with 4 feet of three inch risers and another 4 feet of incline starters rising from zero to one and a half inch in four feet and when I cut down the second set of inclines I will gain another 4 feet of 3 inch risers and another incline set which I will probably find a use for


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## CTValleyRR

Looks like you're making good progress. I'm glad you were able to cut the risers, even though i would have just spent a little more to have them pre-cut. Good luck cleaning up that mess, BTW. You'll be finding styrofoam dust on things you cut 3 months from now.

Are those turnouts in the middle part of the layout? One of them has a misaligned track joint, which is clearly visible in the 3rd photo.

I also see what looks like a cardstock structure in the bottom photo. Care to enlighten us on where you're heading?


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Looks like you're making good progress. I'm glad you were able to cut the risers, even though i would have just spent a little more to have them pre-cut. Good luck cleaning up that mess, BTW. You'll be finding styrofoam dust on things you cut 3 months from now.
> 
> Are those turnouts in the middle part of the layout? One of them has a misaligned track joint, which is clearly visible in the 3rd photo.
> 
> I also see what looks like a cardstock structure in the bottom photo. Care to enlighten us on where you're heading?


The turnouts in the middle are just a thought at this time, I was thinking of a turn out and turn back in along the center part, the card stock I think you are referring to is a house I saw somewhere that you print out and glue to stiff stock and then glue it together. a possibility for inexpensive buildings,

Where and I going, holy crap I am not sure, I want a small mountain in the corner with a cutout for the track on the riser section and a tunnel on the table level section, I threw a few things together to get an idea you can see in the following photos, I wanted the back of the tunnel open so I can re-rail any derails. I am wondering why to do with the two inclines I will have when the foam cutting is done, they are each about three feet long with a one and a half inch rise.


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## CTValleyRR

Save the risers for your next layout. Or chuck them. No law says you have to use every ounce of everything you buy.

And now you see why I wanted you to answer all those questions and look at a full layout design. Saves do-overs later. You definitely need to work in a siding or two. Me personally, while I like the option to run trains in a circle sometimes, most of the time it bores me silly. Depending on what kind of switches you have, the diverging leg should be an 18" radius curve. They will also replace a 9"straight track. See if you can work one in to your basic design, then branch off two or three more sidings from there.

There are lots of decent cardstock buildings out there. I have several on my layout. If nothing else, a cheapie will serve as a stand in until you get a better model there.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Save the risers for your next layout. Or chuck them. No law says you have to use every ounce of everything you buy.
> 
> And now you see why I wanted you to answer all those questions and look at a full layout design. Saves do-overs later. You definitely need to work in a siding or two. Me personally, while I like the option to run trains in a circle sometimes, most of the time it bores me silly. Depending on what kind of switches you have, the diverging leg should be an 18" radius curve. They will also replace a 9"straight track. See if you can work one in to your basic design, then branch off two or three more sidings from there.
> 
> There are lots of decent cardstock buildings out there. I have several on my layout. If nothing else, a cheapie will serve as a stand in until you get a better model there.


I had planned to trace out layout this morning and then glue all the foam pieces in place but the more I stared at it I started to see a small flaw I am gonna correct. The outside loop with the long straight incline ended up much lower then the inside loop of the figure 8 and the track in the curve was much lower. Since I have a one foot section of riser left unused I decided to just move the incline back that one foot rising the outside loop track a tad so it is not so much lower in the turn, see picture following you will see what I mean.

I did work in two side rails with a turn out and then turn back in. When I am installing the foam track bed should I just run it across the bridge in the center of the 8 to keep all the track level.


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## Bkubiak

The last photo I posted was NOT a good representation of what happened. I forgot that as I was setting up the down incline across the figure 8 I started the incline about a foot before the bridge thinking I had sufficient room under it for the trains to pass, what I forgot to figure in was the foam track bed thickness and as a result the loco hit the bridge. When I added a foot more of riser and started the down incline just after the bridge it moved the whole incline back I foot in the inside turn almost hiding the outside turn. This morning I added the left over foot of riser to upper end the long straight incline moving that incline back a foot and raising it just the right amount, now both tracks rise at similar rates.
There is a lot more to laying out tracks then there was when they were all on a flat piece of plywood. I can see where some of you folks with really big layouts must spend months planning and building your layouts and getting them to run properly before you even get into the scenery and landscaping.


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## MtRR75

Bkubiak said:


> I can see where some of you folks with really big layouts must spend months planning and building your layouts and getting them to run properly before you even get into the scenery and landscaping.


Months???. Don't I wish... How about years?

Of course I still have a full time job, other hobbies, and on-going family issues.


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## CTValleyRR

MtRR75 said:


> Months???. Don't I wish... How about years?
> 
> Of course I still have a full time job, other hobbies, and on-going family issues.


Yup. When I first got back into the hobby about 12 years ago, I spent several months just reading and researchingbefore deciding on a pre- designed track plan. That layout, which took about 2 years to complete, was an experiment, to see what I liked and what I didn't, what worked well and what needed improvement.

Then I designed my own, bigger layout, and am still working on that one (the better parts of the first were salvaged and incorporated into this one. I also have a huge one on the drawing board, ready for when I have the funds, time, and space.

Model railroads do not reward rushing into things.

And BTW, make sure your trackwork is as flawless as you can get it. And you need a minimum of 3" vertical clearance in HO. We mentioned that a few times early on.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Yup. When I first got back into the hobby about 12 years ago, I spent several months just reading and researchingbefore deciding on a pre- designed track plan. That layout, which took about 2 years to complete, was an experiment, to see what I liked and what I didn't, what worked well and what needed improvement.
> 
> Then I designed my own, bigger layout, and am still working on that one (the better parts of the first were salvaged and incorporated into this one. I also have a huge one on the drawing board, ready for when I have the funds, time, and space.
> 
> Model railroads do not reward rushing into things.
> 
> And BTW, make sure your trackwork is as flawless as you can get it. And you need a minimum of 3" vertical clearance in HO. We mentioned that a few times early on.


If I do this again I think I will use those 3 ft sections of flex track everywhere I can, as a matter of fact I am considering that for this layout before I actually glue the track down. 

I was having issues here and there adjusting track only to discover that by making sure one a section in one spot was good and tight only to discover a section at the other end of the table came apart. I ended up pinning track in place with those big foam pins I got from woodland scenics. I do have the 3 inch clearance you mentioned

My favorite loco derailed in turns from time to time and I could not figure out why until my wife was watching it closely and she saw that the front truck coupler housing was striking the side of it's opening making it derail. I plan to sand that opening a little bit wider. I did some measurements and discovered the rear truck opening was actually 1/16 wider then the front. It is amazing how such a small thing can cause such a big issue, it only did that in left hand turns. It was the life like Santa Fe 3500 diesel

I did some checking and the "Model Train Stuff" web store has 10 pieces of 3 ft Super Flex Track code 100 NS at 36.61 with free shipping, gonna order that along with a hobby saw

CT what size table is your current layout on?


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## CTValleyRR

My current layout is 5 x 10.

Model Train Stuff is generally my go-to source for supplies and equioment.


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## DonR

You'll get a lot of encouragement here on the Forum for you
to go with ALL flex track before you start glue work.
By doing so you dramatically reduce the number
of track joints where electrical and derailing problems occur.

The work so far looks fantastic.

Don


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## Bkubiak

DonR said:


> You'll get a lot of encouragement here on the Forum for you
> to go with ALL flex track before you start glue work.
> By doing so you dramatically reduce the number
> of track joints where electrical and derailing problems occur.
> 
> The work so far looks fantastic.
> 
> Don


Thank you, just placed the order for the flex track.

I asked on the train discussion thread but I will ask here too, what is the best way to glue grass mat to the table?


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## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> Thank you, just placed the order for the flex track.
> 
> I asked on the train discussion thread but I will ask here too, what is the best way to glue grass mat to the table?


How about glue? 

Seriously, never used a grass mat, so I can't help you, although Titebond should work.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> How about glue?
> 
> Seriously, never used a grass mat, so I can't help you, although Titebond should work.


I was wondering about wallpaper paste

Just reading the instructions and waddyaknow it is made woodland scenics and they recommend their mat adhesive


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## CTValleyRR

Wallpaper paste would probably work fine.

Always remenber one thing about Woodland Scenics: they make some nice products, but they're also shameless hucksters. They tell you to buy everything with their label on ot, even though half of it is common craft stuff you can buy elsewhere at half the price.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Wallpaper paste would probably work fine.
> 
> Always remenber one thing about Woodland Scenics: they make some nice products, but they're also shameless hucksters. They tell you to buy everything with their label on ot, even though half of it is common craft stuff you can buy elsewhere at half the price.


Woodland is saying that their mat adhesive is permanent yet it never really dries and that allows you to easily remove the grass mat if you want to do something else.
I sat thru almost all their videos and I learned a lot, but I also learned a lot that was very expensive stuff to buy. 
They did show a lot of tricks that can be done with plaster cloth. Gotta go to Walgreens later to pick up a Px, gonna see if they sell that plaster cloth that docs use to make Plaster casts.


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## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> Woodland is saying that their mat adhesive is permanent yet it never really dries and that allows you to easily remove the grass mat if you want to do something else.
> I sat thru almost all their videos and I learned a lot, but I also learned a lot that was very expensive stuff to buy.
> They did show a lot of tricks that can be done with plaster cloth. Gotta go to Walgreens later to pick up a Px, gonna see if they sell that plaster cloth that docs use to make Plaster casts.


Probably not, because that's not really a do-it yourself treatment, but it can't hurt to look.

If you have a Learning Center store or a Michaels / AC Moore nearby, those would be better bets. We have a dedicated medical supply company here, which is where I get mine. You may want to pick up the yellow pages and see what's near you.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Probably not, because that's not really a do-it yourself treatment, but it can't hurt to look.
> 
> If you have a Learning Center store or a Michaels / AC Moore nearby, those would be better bets. We have a dedicated medical supply company here, which is where I get mine. You may want to pick up the yellow pages and see what's near you.


We have a Michaels nearby. I found we had a small tub of wallpaper paste mixed in with all the cans of paint and what not, gave it a stir and here is a pic of the first piece of grass mat, we are removing all the bumps using a caulking tube as a roller, it worked pretty good, gonna let each section dry before we move on.


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## CTValleyRR

Why not wait to put the rest down until you decide what to do with the sides of your risers? That may change what you want / need to do with the mat.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Why not wait to put the rest down until you decide what to do with the sides of your risers? That may change what you want / need to do with the mat.


Sorry but after 35 odd years of commercial flying old habits are hard to break, We were taught to always think way ahead of the airplane and never wait until something happens to look for a way out. From my very first lesson we were taught to always be looking for a suitable place to make a landing, just in case. After many hours I did that without even thinking about it.
I was thinking what to do after all the grass mat is down, woodland suggests to get the plaster cloth over the risers prior to installing the roadbed, they do have some great How To Video's using plaster cloth


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## CTValleyRR

It's funny that you reponded like that. From my perpective, you're doing exactly the opposite. It looks to me like you're saying, "This is my next step, and I don't want to think about anything else until I'm done with it." So it sounds like you're going to put down the mat come hell or high water, then maybe put down plaster cloth and cover some of the grass mat up. I'm wondering why you don't consider maybe putting down the plaster cloth, then putting the grass mat OVER that.

To keep with your analogy, it sounds to me like you're taking off before you've filed the flight plan.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> It's funny that you reponded like that. From my perpective, you're doing exactly the opposite. It looks to me like you're saying, "This is my next step, and I don't want to think about anything else until I'm done with it." So it sounds like you're going to put down the mat come hell or high water, then maybe put down plaster cloth and cover some of the grass mat up. I'm wondering why you don't consider maybe putting down the plaster cloth, then putting the grass mat OVER that.
> 
> To keep with your analogy, it sounds to me like you're taking off before you've filed the flight plan.


I used to air file most of the time, both in the states and especially in the Bahamas. When I was flying out there it was the only way, they had no phones and cell phones were not around yet.

Woodland has some great video's of how to this and that, it takes several hours to see them all which I did. I plan to run the plaster cloth just over the edge of the mat and cover the seam with foliage.

Please stop scolding me and just follow what I am trying to do and add your suggestions, many of them I have already used, you are very knowledgeable. It is much easier to work with plaster cloth then it is with this grass mat, the mat has a stiff vinyl backing, is difficult to trim and once it is down woodland shows you how to put the plaster cloth over it. you can even put a rock under it and by using a heat gun conform the mat to take the shape of the rock, I am not gonna do that. My goal is to have a simple clean layout that I can sit back with a rum and coke and watch the train go around without derailing or falling off. BTW My wife and her sister are Crafting Nuts and cannot wait for me to get my part done so they can paint, stain and do their thing to what I build.


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## Bkubiak

BTW the wallpaper paste is not working out, since the mat has a vinyl backing it is not sticking to that very well. We are gonna take a ride over to Michael's later today and see what they have. Woodland's stuff is made to secure the grass mat, might be worth the 8 bucks, but perhaps the craft store has something for less.


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## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> I used to air file most of the time, both in the states and especially in the Bahamas. When I was flying out there it was the only way, they had no phones and cell phones were not around yet.
> 
> Woodland has some great video's of how to this and that, it takes several hours to see them all which I did. I plan to run the plaster cloth just over the edge of the mat and cover the seam with foliage.
> 
> Please stop scolding me and just follow what I am trying to do and add your suggestions, many of them I have already used, you are very knowledgeable. It is much easier to work with plaster cloth then it is with this grass mat, the mat has a stiff vinyl backing, is difficult to trim and once it is down woodland shows you how to put the plaster cloth over it. you can even put a rock under it and by using a heat gun conform the mat to take the shape of the rock, I am not gonna do that. My goal is to have a simple clean layout that I can sit back with a rum and coke and watch the train go around without derailing or falling off. BTW My wife and her sister are Crafting Nuts and cannot wait for me to get my part done so they can paint, stain and do their thing to what I build.


Good grief. Disagreeing with you is not scolding you. You are a big boy and can do exactly as you please, but for my money, why come to a website and ask for help and recommendations if all you want is reinforcement of what you are already doing? Everything I say here is just that: a recommendation or a suggestion. They're potentially worth exactly what you paid for them. When I say that my perception of your actions is different than the way you're describing them, it's a statement of fact. That's how I perceived it, nothing more. 

I am aware that you are not trying to create a detailed layout, and most of the things that I've recommended to you I wouldn't dream of doing on my own layout. On the other hand, much of what I suggest (the height of your table, for example) comes from my own hard won experience (much of the time confirmed by conversations with other modelers). Part of the joy of participating in forums like this come from the pleasure of helping newcomers avoid a crash landing.

But if you think it will be helpful, I will stop doing anything more than answering specific how-to questions, and then only with reference to the exact issue at hand, rather than trying to anticipate how you might save time, money, and aggrevation on the next step.


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## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> BTW the wallpaper paste is not working out, since the mat has a vinyl backing it is not sticking to that very well. We are gonna take a ride over to Michael's later today and see what they have. Woodland's stuff is made to secure the grass mat, might be worth the 8 bucks, but perhaps the craft store has something for less.


OK. Now we know wallpaper paste is not a good option for grass mats. 

Basically, what you're looking for will probably be called "contact cement", and will probably be advertised as remaining tacky, or "repositionable".

Try the scrapbooking section.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> But if you think it will be helpful, I will stop doing anything more than answering specific how-to questions, and then only with reference to the exact issue at hand, rather than trying to anticipate how you might save time, money, and aggrevation on the next step.


Great, thank you very much


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Why not wait to put the rest down until you decide what to do with the sides of your risers? That may change what you want / need to do with the mat.


You are right about waiting with the grass mat and doing the riser/inclines sides and covers first.
I made a small model with a piece of leftover riser some rolled up newspaper and a couple pieces of plaster cloth. It is a little messy and if anything got on the grass mat I think it would be difficult to clean up. I did a step by step of what I did, I will post it two pics at time. The first pic is with some rolled up paper taped down the way Woodland says to do it. The second pic is just showing the piece of plaster cloth before I dipped it in water. Note: I am not using Woodlands plaster cloth


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## CTValleyRR

See, I do know what I'm talking about from time to time (just not as often as I'd like to think). 

That cloth doesn't look noticably less "plastery" than the WS stuff (although I confess I haven't used it in about 6 years).

I found spreading a flat sheet or two of newspaper over the "pillows" and wetting it with a spray bottle made for a smoother surface.

Also, try to avoid creases and lumps on the top of your risers. A 1/8" lump on your layout is a foot high bump for your trains.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> See, I do know what I'm talking about from time to time (just not as often as I'd like to think).
> 
> That cloth doesn't look noticably less "plastery" than the WS stuff (although I confess I haven't used it in about 6 years).
> 
> I found spreading a flat sheet or two of newspaper over the "pillows" and wetting it with a spray bottle made for a smoother surface.
> 
> Also, try to avoid creases and lumps on the top of your risers. A 1/8" lump on your layout is a foot high bump for your trains.


When I was in the store I was holding WS plaster roll in one hand and the two other rolls in my right hand and the one WS was much heavier then both.

Anyway here is three more pictures of my experiment, the first is right after I applied two layers of cloth, one verticality and one horizontally, the second i mixed up some joint compound with water to thin it to a paste and painted it on to fill in the holes, the third was when it was almost dry I took a very wet brush and just painted over to smooth it out and get rid of ugly rough spots, I think for a first try it came out nice and is giving me the confidence to have at it and do what is in my mind to do


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## CTValleyRR

That looks very good. Exactly what you want: to hide the artificial cross hatch pattern. You don't need to do the top, where the roadbed will be, although there's no harm in doing it.

I read what you said about the weight, but a lot of things can affect that (type of plaster, gauze thickness, and moisture content, for instance). As I said in earlier post, it doesn't really matter, because you still need to put more plaster (or joint compound) on top of it.

I'd say go slap it on your layout.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> That looks very good. Exactly what you want: to hide the artificial cross hatch pattern. You don't need to do the top, where the roadbed will be, although there's no harm in doing it.
> 
> I read what you said about the weight, but a lot of things can affect that (type of plaster, gauze thickness, and moisture content, for instance). As I said in earlier post, it doesn't really matter, because you still need to put more plaster (or joint compound) on top of it.
> 
> I'd say go slap it on your layout.


Just came across some bubble wrap, might be able to use that under the plaster cloth, gotta speriment a little, also gotta get a better brush that does not shed


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## DonR

About the plaster cloth.

I've experienced the 'open cell' result and found that if
you use your wet fingers and rub the cloth a bit many of those
cells will close. There still is a 'mesh' look to the finish tho
and the added dry wall paste does do a nice job of
smoothing out the surface.

Don


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## Bkubiak

DonR said:


> About the plaster cloth.
> 
> I've experienced the 'open cell' result and found that if
> you use your wet fingers and rub the cloth a bit many of those
> cells will close. There still is a 'mesh' look to the finish tho
> and the added dry wall paste does do a nice job of
> smoothing out the surface.
> 
> Don


Ok I got started and I discovered a few things, I used the wet finger to smooth out the overlaps and then I mixed up the dry wall joint compound to mush and painted it on, that filled all the holes, plus when it dries the dry wall joint compound can be sanded if needed. As the mix I made started to dry it got a little lumpy and started to look like little stones or pebbles and I left it.
Here is a pic as far as I got so far, the bubble rock under the mesh kinda looks like some big rocks


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## CTValleyRR

Nice progress. Bumps / lumps and grain texture is fine. It will look natural with a little fake vegetation on top of it. It's the regular straight lines of the plaster cloth that you don't want showing. I see some lines in the photo, but I think that's just where the plaster is thicker.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Nice progress. Bumps / lumps and grain texture is fine. It will look natural with a little fake vegetation on top of it. It's the regular straight lines of the plaster cloth that you don't want showing. I see some lines in the photo, but I think that's just where the plaster is thicker.



Thanks, I see the lines too, not too worried about the ones on top, the foam track bed covers them and I plan to first paint the top with a flat black before I install the track bed, I can give the sides more joint compound mix to cover anything. 
I used up my first roll of plaster cloth and did not get all then way around the turn and it is just getting taller, don't think my second roll with go as far
What a mess, good thing I pulled that grass mat outa there


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Nice progress. Bumps / lumps and grain texture is fine. It will look natural with a little fake vegetation on top of it. It's the regular straight lines of the plaster cloth that you don't want showing. I see some lines in the photo, but I think that's just where the plaster is thicker.


Well I have used up my two rolls of plaster tape and had to go and buy more. I decided to buy one roll of WS 8 inch wide and another roll of the 4 inch I have been using and while at Michaels I picked up a tub of plaster of paris.
Following is two photos and I think What I have done so far is not too shabby, in the back corner I made the space between the two rails one of which is an up incline and the other a down incline a creek bed with two small waterfalls which will run into a pond in that useless space in the corner of the figure 8. The other picture is just one of what I did attempting to be creative and I cleaned up the holes in the plaster cloth. I ended up making a watery mixture of plaster of paris and dabbing it on, but the watery mix started to harden in about 6 or 7 minutes so I had to hustle, I only mixed up a little at a time. In that one corner I plan to make a small hill and put a small house on it, you can see it in the picture, it will take up that dead space on the table 
I have found that the more I work with plaster cloth the better I get at it and the more ideas that pop into my mind, like adding that little hill with a house. 
Tomorrow I will be getting into that big corner where there will be a raised track and a track in a tunnel on grade, I want the raised track to look like the track area was cut out of the side of the hill I plan to build, I have some ideas but am looking for better ideas then mine.

For a first timer making hills and rocks waddayathink????


ATTACH]38318[/ATTACH]


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## CTValleyRR

Still looks kind of white to me, dude!

Just kidding. Good work so far. Do you plan to add some scenery materials or just paint it?


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Still looks kind of white to me, dude!
> 
> Just kidding.  Good work so far. Do you plan to add some scenery materials or just paint it?


First paint, scenery stuff later, what is a good base color for all those hills a tan, brown ??

I was thinking a dark color where the track foam base goes

gotta get the messy stuff done before I put that grass mat down


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## CTValleyRR

Yeah, something that looks like dirt. I use Glidden Nutmeg Brown.

Unless you're worried about sealing it, you don't have to paint where the roadbed is going to be at all. The roadbed will hide it. Or use the same brown you use for the rest.


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Yeah, something that looks like dirt. I use Glidden Nutmeg Brown.
> 
> Unless you're worried about sealing it, you don't have to paint where the roadbed is going to be at all. The roadbed will hide it. Or use the same brown you use for the rest.


Next time I am at the HD I will check out that color, lazy day today, can't seem to get my heard screwed on right, anyway what do you guys think about this idea for a tunnel entrance? The train enters, or exits at an angle and not straight in..


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## Bkubiak

CTValleyRR said:


> Yeah, something that looks like dirt. I use Glidden Nutmeg Brown.
> 
> Unless you're worried about sealing it, you don't have to paint where the roadbed is going to be at all. The roadbed will hide it. Or use the same brown you use for the rest.


I was the HD and I found a Glidden color called Ground Nutmeg, is that the same color, it looks kinds dark. I think dirt in Conn is diff then dirt in Miami, the dirt I see around here is a dark grey with lighter sandy spots in it. I like your color dirt better


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## Bkubiak

I am finding that the more I work with plaster cloth the more creative I am getting with it. I am almost finished with all the inclines and most of the risers working my way slowly to the corner where the large hill with a tunnel at grade and a raised track going across it, both tracks will be making almost a 180 degree turn.
It is presenting me with a few issues to solve, 
1. how to make it look right, 
2. how to secure the track in the tunnel and protect it while making a mess.
I would like the upper track to look like it is running on a ledge that was cut into the side of the hill. Does anyone have any pictures of how they did something similar?


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## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> I was the HD and I found a Glidden color called Ground Nutmeg, is that the same color, it looks kinds dark. I think dirt in Conn is diff then dirt in Miami, the dirt I see around here is a dark grey with lighter sandy spots in it. I like your color dirt better


I actually looked at the top of the can this morning for the first time in who knows how many years, and indeed it is Ground Nutmeg. It's a pretty close match for the dirt here, which has a lot of iron and clay in it. When I picked it, I took a Ziploc bag of dirt with me and said, "match this". They did. When I paint it on, I don't try very hard to get good, even coverage, just to hide the white. Lighter and darker spots looks more realistic.

You only like our dirt better because you haven't tried to dig in the crap. That and the fact thst every cubic foot of dirt is about 30% rock makes things interesting.


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## CTValleyRR

Bkubiak said:


> I am finding that the more I work with plaster cloth the more creative I am getting with it. I am almost finished with all the inclines and most of the risers working my way slowly to the corner where the large hill with a tunnel at grade and a raised track going across it, both tracks will be making almost a 180 degree turn.
> It is presenting me with a few issues to solve,
> 1. how to make it look right,
> 2. how to secure the track in the tunnel and protect it while making a mess.
> I would like the upper track to look like it is running on a ledge that was cut into the side of the hill. Does anyone have any pictures of how they did something similar?


You can protect your track with a strip of 2" painters or masking tape over it.

As far as the rest (and this will answer you painting question, too), the best thing to do is to start poking through the gallery here and on other sites. You can also use google images to get ideas. From here out, it gets a little trick to give specific recommendations because the degree of realism you desire is probably different from mine.

For most of us, the plaster cloth isn't the topmost layer, and we only worry about "believable" at this point, not realistic.


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