# Lionel's New F-Series Locomotives: A closer look...



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hi folks,

As a follow-up to the other MTF thread here discussing Lionel's latest F3/F7 locomotives, I thought I'd show a few photos and a bonus video of my Great Northern ABBA configuration running its maiden voyage on my Allegheny & Pacific Railway last night.

Unlike the Santa Fe units that were somewhat of a disappointment for me (i.e., due to a poorly fit roof-top panel on the powered B-unit, as well as Lionel's less-than-expected implementation of reflective steel-plating effects on the locomotive's side-panels), these Great Northern units are spot-on. Lionel's choice of dark olive green and pale orange Great Northern colors are as good a match with GN prototype as I can recall Lionel ever producing. And the silver trucks, also true-to-form with the prototype, really highlight the detail level exquisitely (as opposed to models that have black trucks). Great Northern enthusiasts should be very happy. I know I am.  

*Photo1:*








*Photo2:*








*Photo3:*








*Photo4:*









Now truth be told... the Great Northern Empire Builder has always been one of my favorite western railroad color schemes. And I do hope to visit Glacier National Park some day, which has some magnificent scenery where the real Great Northern Empire Builder train traveled decades ago. So I splurged a bit, and 3rd Rail's (Golden Gate Depot's) 9-car set of Empire Builder cars (including the magnificent Great Dome car in brass) are enroute as we speak. However, I couldn't wait for its arrival before testing out these new Lionel F3's and giving them a chance to stretch their legs on my layout. 

So without further ado, here's a short teaser-video of these terrific F3 units pulling a nighttime California Zephyr train on my Allegheny & Pacific Railway. Enjoy!!!

*VIDEO*
https://vimeo.com/287965290/baddbabd25



For those of you planning to purchase Lionel's new F3 locomotives, here are a couple of tips when configuring them in your Legacy environment. The instruction guide isn't 100% clear on this, so hopefully these tips will save you some grief down the road.

*First up is configuring the locomotive ID's.* After playing around with different configuration possibilities, I would suggest that you configure the AA-set, the powered B-unit, and the Super-Bass B-unit all to the same locomotive ID. This is very different than I have ever done with other MU configurations, where I've typically created a Legacy lash-up consisting of individually powered units. But if you take the lash-up approach with these, then Legacy activates sounds on only the lead locomotive... which defeats the purpose of having Legacy Railsounds in not only the lead A-unit, but also the trailing powered B-unit(s) and the Super-Bass B-unit as well.

So by configuring ALL units to the same locomotive ID, you're not really running a "formal" Legacy lash-up per se... but rather all units simply respond as a "set" with the same ENGINE NUMBER. This allows sound to emanate from ALL units, which is a really cool effect -- especially since the Super-Bass B-unit has a slightly different horn tone than the powered A/B units, making for a "chord" effect as opposed to a single-note sound when the horn is sounded. This results in what I would admittedly say is Lionel's best implementation of an F-series horn to date. Whether it's prototypical or not may be up for debate, but I like it. And that's all that counts (for me) in this case, because the former F-series horns were always a bit of a sore spot with me in terms of sound quality.

*Next up are a couple of sound settings that were also new to me.* So here's a photo of switches located under one of the roof-top panels on both the powered B-unit and the Super-Bass B-unit, which allow users to configure sound effects to their liking:

*Photo5:*








The two slide-switches located to the right in the above photo are key to getting the sounds the way you like them. I set the SIGNALS switch to ON, which means Railsounds will be activated on that particular locomotive unit. Setting it this way allows sounds to emanate from the entire locomotive set, which results in a nice, multidimensional sound effect with tons of presence. However, I set the CREW switch to OFF, because I only wanted Crewtalk/Towercom dialogs to emate from the lead A-unit of the locomotive set. (I initially had this switch set to ON; however, it creates too much of an echo effect to the dialogues when you activate the Crewtalk or Towercom buttons on the Legacy CAB-2 remote.)

The Railsounds folks at Lionel have really done their homework with these latest F-series locomotives. At this point, the only area of improvement would be for Lionel to get rid of their bean-counters, and allow the Railsounds folks to implement roadname/roadnumber Crewtalk/Towercom dialogues again as they did several years ago. Unfortunately, that feature is now reserved only for VisionLine products at super-premium prices. So I guess Lionel's brilliant management team has forgotten that VisionLine features were supposed to percolate DOWN through the company's products -- not have features that were once part of the regular product line percolate UP to VisionLine-only status. Come on guys.... get with the program, PLEASE???  These generic dialogs tend to get old rather quickly, whereas the roadname/roadnumber-specific dialogs provide greater interest -- especially when multiple trains are in operation on the layout. Aside from that annoyance, these units are now arguably the best-sounding O-Gauge F3/F7-units on the market IMHO. Paired with 3rd Rail's Empire Builder 21" aluminum cars, these locomotive units should help create a state-of-the-art Empire Builder train that I can't wait to share with everyone! Stay tuned for a full follow-up video soon!!!

David


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Very nice review. I'm glad your happy with your new purchase. It's nice to see something positive written about Lionel finally.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2018)

They look excellent, terrific review David.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2018)

Excellent review of beautiful locomotives. Thanks David.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Terrific looking set of the Great Northern ABBA's. Great info in the review.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess everything Lionel produces doesn't suffer from QC issues, just most of it! 

I'm glad you got one of the good sets Dave.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Very nice review, ENJOY!!!!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“First up is configuring the locomotive ID's. After playing around with different configuration possibilities, I would suggest that you configure the AA-set, the powered B-unit, and the Super-Bass B-unit all to the same locomotive ID. This is very different than I have ever done with other MU configurations, where I've typically created a Legacy lash-up consisting of individually powered units. But if you take the lash-up approach with these, then Legacy activates sounds on only the lead locomotive... which defeats the purpose of having Legacy Railsounds in not only the lead A-unit, but also the trailing powered B-unit(s) and the Super-Bass B-unit as well.”

David, I assigned each unit a unique ID and built a lash up as I normally do and had sound from all three sound capable units. When a lashup is used, the sound switches on the B units are ignored: signal and crew sounds are off.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Legacy railsounds rocks. I love your solution of having all units as one engine ID. Lashup really does defeat the purpose of sounds in each unit


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

David, thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us. Beautiful engines! I too have always loved the GN color scheme. I thought the horn sounded a little different than in another video of Lionel's new Santa Fe F units, but it may just be me. 

Art


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> ...
> David, I assigned each unit a unique ID and built a lash up as I normally do and had sound from all three sound capable units. When a lashup is used, the sound switches on the B units are ignored: signal and crew sounds are off.


Interesting, Forrest.  Which sounds did you hear from multiple units? I can swear that when I programmed the individual units as a Legacy lash-up with sequential engine ID's, I lost the multidimensional horn sound. And only the lead-unit sounded the horn/bell. The difference was like night-and-day.

I've encountered similar experiences when I've lashed up different locomotive units... for example, on my video of the California Zephyr, I have 3 different SD70ACe locomotives up front, but only towercom/crewtalk and horn/bell sounds from the lead unit. Are you suggesting that Legacy allows horn/bell sounds from multiple units in a lash-up? That would be a nice feature. Perhaps I've been doing something wrong. 

David


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> David, I assigned each unit a unique ID and built a lash up as I normally do and had sound from all three sound capable units. When a lashup is used, the sound switches on the B units are ignored: signal and crew sounds are off.


I've always understood that that is how it is supposed to work - and does on the few Legacy lash-ups I have configured. But I can see how David's solution would work.

First class review, for which many thanks. :appl: GN is not a railroad I model although I have been tempted. 

Above all else, I am glad you got a set you are happy with. I lucked out too recently with my UP Excursion cars. But it should not be so hit and miss as that.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

No. In a lashup only the lead unit has signal (horn/bell) and crew/tower dialogs. What you do get is independent, but coordinated prime mover and brake sounds from all sound capable units. The sounds from my A, powered B (while I had it) and superbass B are all a little different, but react to speed changes together. 

I can understand why you might like horn sounds from all units, but it ain’t correct. .


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Very interesting... when you folks say you have "sounds" in all units of a lash-up, is it possible you're referring to the diesel roar sounds? I suppose that's possible. But I'm 99.9% sure I didn't hear horn/bell sounds in the trailing B-units when I created the Legacy lash-up. In fact, I'm 110% sure that was the case, because the multi-dimensional horn effect was lost completely in the lash-up. And if that's the case, then what's the point of the Super-Bass B-unit being in the locomotive consist? I'm confused. 

David


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Very interesting... when you folks say you have "sounds" in all units of a lash-up, is it possible you're referring to the diesel roar sounds? I suppose that's possible. But I'm 99.9% sure I didn't hear horn/bell sounds in the trailing B-units when I created the Legacy lash-up. In fact, I'm 110% sure that was the case, because the multi-dimensional horn effect was lost completely in the lash-up. And if that's the case, then what's the point of the Super-Bass B-unit being in the locomotive consist? I'm confused.
> 
> David


In a lashup all trailing units should only have engine revs or chuffing for steam engines. The bell and whistles should be off. I like the sound of all the whistles/horns going off all at the same time. Plan on trying that if I ever order 3rdrails NYC F3.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“And if that's the case, then what's the point of the Super-Bass B-unit being in the locomotive consist? I'm confused. “

For the engine sounds with a deeper note. Multidimensional engine sounds.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I only have one sound board in all my E, F, and PA consists so can't try this but would think you could make the super bass unit the lead engine and the rest like a B unit so the super bass makes all the sounds and the rest only engine sounds.

Never mind, that would mess up the directional lighting.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your points of clarification! I think we're now all on the same page in terms of which sounds we are or aren't hearing in the lash-up vs. independent units within a "set". I guess it's nice that Lionel gives us the option to configure things to our own personal preference. Some of this flexibility may come as part of Lionel's attempts to support running these locomotives in both conventional AND command-control environments. Nonetheless, I like the flexibility it provides us. 

The other nice thing about treating all powered units as the same engine ID within a set is we don't burn through as many engine ID's as quickly. They go quick enough!!! I really like running lash-ups, but I'd hate to use 3 or 4 engine ID's unnecessarily if I had an ABBBA configuration with multiple powered/sound units!  After all, we're never gonna run those B-units on their own, and there's seldom any need to address them individually anyway. So why waste unique engine ID's on them, right? 

OK... back to enjoying the trains. 

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Also, in a lashup, the lights and couplers work correctly.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> Also, in a lashup, the lights and couplers work correctly.


As is the case with the "single engine-ID" solution as well, Forrest. Just requires a few correct switch settings. If you look at Photo5 in my first post, you'll notice there's also a COUPLER slide-switch on the B-units which I have set to OFF on both B-units. So everything works as expected, with the trailing A-unit's rear coupler firing when the "R" coupler button is pressed on the Cab-2. If somebody were so inclined to run an ABB configuration only, then they'd set the COUPLER slide-switch to ON for the trailing B-unit, and life would be good there too.

Again, I'm sure some of this all comes from Lionel's support of conventional control environments, but the flexibility carries over to those of us running in command-control environments too. But the instruction guides aren't real clear on this. So I guess it all comes from hands-on experience. 

David


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

PS. Nice looking units! I expect another vid when the cars arrive.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> PS. Nice looking units! I expect another vid when the cars arrive.


Thanks for the kind words everybody. I hope to receive the 3rd Rail Empire Builder cars in the vicinity of 9/10. So I'm really excited to have such a nice Empire Builder train consisting of Lionel ABBA units up front, and 9 GGD (3rd Rail) 21" aluminum passenger cars in tow. So stay tuned for that video later this month.  

The only thing I might add down the road would be a Lionel StationSounds car, if they ever offer their Empire Builder passenger cars. Rumor has it Lionel may offer a few more 21" passenger car liveries in the 2019 Volume 1 "Big Book" Catalog. But the factory that makes their passenger cars is the one that closed a couple of months ago. So we'll need to see how long it takes Lionel to line up a new factory and get 21" passenger car production going again. They still have already-catalog'd passenger cars to deliver yet (i.e., the Theatre car, and the full-dome StationSounds diners to name a few). So we'll need to watch that space carefully. I'd love it if Lionel would offer a Great Northern StationSounds car as a 21" full-dome car, like the one they announced for the Reading, Blue Mountain & Northern livery (catalog'd in the 2018 Big Book).

One can always hope, right??? 

David


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## Pebo (Sep 27, 2015)

Here are the Conrail F7s.....

































They look great!
Will run them soon....

Peter


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Just an update for those folks waiting on a video... here's the latest on my Empire Builder set. All 9 of my Golden Gate Depot cars arrived, and I've oiled the truck journals to help the cars roll more freely. These jewels are HEFTY!!! I also found some bonus cars recently too: 3 Great Northern 21" aluminum passenger cars produced under the K-Line by Lionel... done up in the Blue Sky color-scheme.

So right now... in addition to a varying configuration of Lionel F3 A and B units, my Empire Builder train includes 2 MTH R50b express reefers, 9 Golden Gate Depot 21" aluminum passenger cars, and 3 Lionel 21" aluminum passenger cars. Overall, a very impressive passenger train!

Now since I introduced some different colors into the train by adding the 3 Lionel blue cars -- something that was done on the prototype in later years, I though I'd take a chance at grabbing the Burlington Northern StationSounds car that Lionel released earlier this year. THAT's when my luck ran out in terms of quality. If you recall, there were LOTS of issues with Lionel's 21" passenger cars from that production run, and it looks like my StationSounds is one of them -- making a hi-pitch tone behind all the vocal announcements.  So I hope to exchange it for another this week with the folks at Nicholas Smith Trains where I purchased it. 

I love these StationSounds cars and I hope Lionel eventually produces one for the _Empire Builder._ The Burlington Northern car I purchased makes "station announcements" for _The North Coast Limited_. Wish it would have been _Empire Builder,_ but I suspect Lionel will produce a set of _Empire Builder_ cars eventually... and my wish will be granted.  Until then, the Burlington Northern StationSounds car will do some duty on both my GGD/Lionel _Empire Builder_ train as well as the MTH Northern Pacific _North Coast Limited_ train (consisting of 17" Premier Line ABS passenger cars).

By the way... I did trip over what appears to be a Legacy "gremlin" with the approach I'm taking running all powered units as the same Engine ID. Things seem to work fine when I address these locomotives as Engine 35 (i.e., my chosen Legacy/TMCC Engine ID). However, when I introduce a StationSounds car into the mix with an ID of 55, the StationSounds user manual suggests creating a TRain "lash-up" that includes the locomotive ID's and the StationSounds dining car. By doing this, it allows the CAB-2's "TRAINLINK" button to toggle the CAB-2's control buttons between engine control and the StationSounds announcements. But I ran into two glitches:


Normally, when we create multiple engine lash-ups, we assign a unique ID# to each locomotive unit. If you recall from my earlier posts, when I did this, I lost the horn-sounds in the follow-on powered B-units. And I really liked the effect of multiple horn effects from different B-units. It made for LOTS of terrific dimensional presence. So I decided to run all powered units with the same Engine ID, and just turn off the crew sounds using the DIP switch on the B-units. Unfortunately, when building lash-ups, Legacy doesn't allow you to define 3 or 4 powered units with the same Engine ID. So I just defined ONE Engine #35 (even though I had 3 powered units on the track) plus the StationSounds diner ID. The entire train responded just fine, HOWEVER, TowerCom and Crewtalk announcements were emitted from ALL the powered units -- even though the crew sounds DIP switch was set to off on the B-units!  So all the Towercom/Crewtalk announcements have an echo-effect to them, since they're now coming from all powered units a few milliseconds apart. I'm gonna call Lionel about this, and see what their tech support folks say. Seems the setting of the crew-sounds DIP switch is being overridden. Anybody here have any ideas?


The alternative is for me to do away with the Legacy lash-up TRain definition, and just address the locomotive set as Engine #35 and the StationSounds diner as Engine #55 directly when "toggling" between locomotive control and StationSounds announcements. That seems to work OK, but it defeats the use of the TRAINLINK button on the CAB-2 remote, which is more of an elegant way to flip between locomotive control and StationSounds announcements in the same train.
 

Oh well.... nobody said this stuff was always gonna be easy. In any event, stay tuned for a full video soon!!!

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You should be able to toggle the horn on for the following units in the consist for Legacy.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

I have the Penny set. They are very nice. The powered B unit had a screw missing in 1 motor and had an extra screw in the AA set but not the motor screw I needed. Love them they are pulling my MTH army 4 car tank sets, 8 flat cars of tanks very cool. Waiting on the Army caboose.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bob, I'm sure I have a screw that will fit your motor.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

John
Thanks anyway, the threads are stripped out in chassis so I put longer one in with lock nut. Everyone is right all units talk and blow horn at the same time put out of sink a little. All units programmed to #26. Sorry it is a Reading set not Pennsy.


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