# layout environment



## Wickerdave (Feb 16, 2017)

Another newbie question,

I wahe a 30 x 20 workshop in my back yard, my intent is to clear about half of it for an HO scale layout. The worksho has finished insulated walls and the ceiling will be finished before I start the layout. It has no constant heat, I use a large torpedo heater in the winter when I need it. {winters are very damp and sometimes cold here in Oregon} Does the lack of constant heat have an effect on the layout and equipment.


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

I have my layout in my basement. Now that our kids are grown, the only room used in the basement is the train room. I usually don't turn on the heat unless I am in the train room. In the dead of winter, the temps can get down into the mid 40's in th train room and I haven't had any problems, but we do not have the moisture problem that you could have in Oregon.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Wickerdave said:


> Another newbie question,
> 
> ... Does the lack of constant heat have an effect on the layout and equipment.


It's not quite that simple. If you build with wood, and have other related materials used for your roadbed to support your rails, wood is an organic material, cellular, that responds only somewhat to temperatures. It responds more to changes in relative humidity. If you read or hear about tracks buckling during seasonal changes, or a week after a thunder storm, it's because of humidity changes. While more humidity makes wood swell across the grain, drying conditions for several days make it shrink. Any gaps in the rails will close and once they're taken up, something's gotta give; the tracks bow and joints kink.

The metal rails will change in length when they get substantially warmer, say during the summer. That act closes gaps as well. If humidity is high those months as well, the wood wants to swell, thus expanding the gaps. They cancel each other out. Code 100 rail expands only 1/4" along a full 100' of contiguous length with a change in temps of 30 deg Fahrenheit. Three gaps will take care of that. None of us have 50' of contiguous rail let alone 100, because we cut tracks to length and use joiners that leave small gaps. Each of those gaps that is NOT soldered, say on curves, takes up some of that problem.

It's a long way of getting to my answer: if you can keep your finished garage/layout space within a range of about 40-60% humidity, and not go from 20 deg in winter to 108 in late July, you will be okay. If you can't, or won't, control humidity with a dehumidifier always left plugged in and on, and don't want to air condition a partitioned space (to keep your costs down), you will probably have some problems in any one year or season.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Protection against humidity change*



Wickerdave said:


> Another newbie question,
> 
> I wahe a 30 x 20 workshop in my back yard, my intent is to clear about half of it for an HO scale layout. The worksho has finished insulated walls and the ceiling will be finished before I start the layout. It has no constant heat, I use a large torpedo heater in the winter when I need it. {winters are very damp and sometimes cold here in Oregon} Does the lack of constant heat have an effect on the layout and equipment.


Wickerdave;

mesenteria has covered the effects quite well. I just want to recommend some measures that I use to keep swelling under control. First, I build all the wood sub-roadbed, that supports my track, in the form of a channel; rather than just flat plywood. The sub-roadbed I make has the normal plywood top, but has continuous, vertical, wood bracing along both sides. The bracing is 1" x 1/4" pine and is held to the bottom edges of the plywood with water-resistant carpenter's glue. The end result is equivalent to a continuous deck girder bridge and is extremely rigid.
Second every last bit of my benchwork, sub-roadbed, and roadbed (made from 1/8" Luan plywood) is painted to seal the wood. You could go one step further by using exterior deck sealer instead of paint, if you choose.
My bookshelf style, around the walls layout is in my garage. Even here in the San Diego area, we get frost in the winter and 100+ degree temperatures in summer. The temp can easily change 40 degrees in the same day. California is nowhere near as, ("damp" that's putting it mildly:laugh as Oregon. My younger daughter lives in Portland,OR. and I have gotten quite "damp" in some of your torrential downpours! So I don't have the humidity changes you're likely to. Still, I feel it's worth the extra effort to keep things stable. I've seen wood benchwork, and sub-roadbed, turn model rail lines into a series of scale speed bumps, and I don't want that on mine.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

ps. These photos show the white painted bottom of one section of my layout, and an end-on view of the same section.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

My attic layout can get as low as 25 degrees in the winter and over 100 degrees in the summer. There are also times when the humidity is 90 %. I keep all my trains in the attic except pre-war locos. I use an electric space heater when I run trains in the winter and I run a dehumidifier when it gets too humid. The only problem I have had is with an F7. When it got too cold, the plastic shell shrunk more than the metal grill and the metal grill bowed out. I’ve never had a problem with the plywood platform due to temperature or humidity extremes, but then I used ¾” plywood.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The guys have covered the issue pretty well, although I come up with a slightly higher number than mesenteria for the expansion of your rails with temperature changes, the point is that for your track, temperature by itself really isn't an issue. Where temp CAN matter is increasing the air's ability to hold moisture.

As the guys have pointed out, unless your benchworkmis well sealed, that humidity can wreak havoc in your layout.

In extreme temps, plastics can warp and become brittle, lubricants can gel or become too liquid, and electronics can overheat and malfunction. As long as you control the humidity and the temperature swings inside the workshop aren't too severe, you should be ok.


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## Wickerdave (Feb 16, 2017)

Thank you,
My daughter lives in San Diego, Navy family, I was just ther two weeks ago. They introduced me to Bucca Di Peppo, OMG what a great resturant. Tried to go to the model railroad museum but ran out of time after doing the zoo with my twin 3 year old grandsons.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

You did the zoo instead of the Model Railroad Museum? Oh good lord did you miss out.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Since I'm going to be in a similar boat, I have a couple ideas to throw out, please let me know if these are feasible?

For the framework, I was thinking of using a minwax oil-based penetrating stain. I would think the stain would help keep out the moisture over the years? On previous projects, after the stain has dried I have finished pieces off with a couple coats of polyurethane. Not only does the poly make a tough final coat, but I think it would also do a good job of keeping out the moisture?

For the track bed, I plan on doing an open cookie-cutter layout. I was thinking of using the 1/4" masonite (the dark brown hard-board stuff). I would think this should be sealed too, but I'm not quite sure with what -- because of the different nature of this board I'm thinking a latex paint might be better than an oil-based product? There will be some fixed platforms for the building structures to sit on, but I will use wire cloth to bridge the gap between these bases and the track bed, allowing for plenty of expansion there. I believe the only fixed points along the track bed should be the vertical risers setting the altitude of the track, but for maximum flexibility the track bed should 'float' over the rest of the frame with no rigid horizontal supports except maybe some wire attachments.

Does that sound about right?


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Has anybody tried vinyl lumber or composite deck structure for framework?


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Since I'm going to be in a similar boat, I have a couple ideas to throw out, please let me know if these are feasible?
> 
> For the framework, I was thinking of using a minwax oil-based penetrating stain. I would think the stain would help keep out the moisture over the years? On previous projects, after the stain has dried I have finished pieces off with a couple coats of polyurethane. Not only does the poly make a tough final coat, but I think it would also do a good job of keeping out the moisture?
> 
> ...


Urethane applied thoroughly and liberally, and allowed to penetrate and to cure over several days, will probably do a good job for you. The minwax...not so confident because, like grease, the volatiles dissipate with time and then you're left with stained wood, not moisture impermeable wood. I am not claiming that minwax won't do a decent job, even over a decade, but I don't honestly know if it will do that up to a decade. In fact, I'm not confident latex and acrylics will do a good enough job.

Thinking a bit further, how long does the average hobbyist keep any one layout? A few, maybe 20%, of us keep one for up to ten years. Most of us are lucky to get six out of them before we move, get tired of the track plan and scenery and rebuild, or need to reclaim the space. I can't see organics losing all their volatiles over those short time periods, unless in an out-building where temps in the summer are permitted to soar into the very hot range.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

time warp said:


> Has anybody tried vinyl lumber or composite deck structure for framework?


I haven't seen it reported, but I know at least one gentlemen on the MR forum, tomikawaTT, who has constructed his entire layout out of metal framing materials. He says he loves it.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

@mesenteria -- The idea was to put down the minwax stain first, then cover it completely with the polyurethane. I'm not sure how the oils could dissipate if they are sealed inside? I have some pine that was treated this way around 2010. True, they have been inside the house the entire time, but I think unless they were exposed to direct UV there is no reason to think the finish won't last for quite a number of years.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Basically, the more you can seal your wood, the better. Latex paints do provide more of a vapor barrier than oil-based ones do (and they're easier on you as well). Polyurethane does a fine job of sealing, although in practice, you have to get the ends of the boards (the part that will rest on the ground) too, and people often neglect that. End grain will soak up a lot of paint or stain.

Any wood-related product (Masonite, Homasote, OSB, MDF, etc.) will react similarly to moisture, so yeah, you gotta seal that too. Doesn't do any good to seal your benchwork and lay track on unsealed roadbed. That's one reason that I don't use a plywood base for my layout -- extruded foam is much more dimensionally stable.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

My layout "lives" in a 30'X40' insulated and heated garage in my backyard.
The temp NEVER goes below 45 degrees in winter or over 80 degrees in summer and the humidity stays low because I don't have any windows and never leave the doors open. No air conditioner is needed because the 4" concrete floor keeps the place cool in the summer. The walls have "pink panther" rolled insulation behind painted drywall, so no humidity issues.
The actual layout is 10'X10', built on a sub base of 3/4" exterior plywood, covered with sheets of 1" pink foam.
The foam is NOT glued to the plywood. Therefore, if the plywood shrinks or expands, it doesn't affect the foam.
My Bachmann EZ track is NOT glued to the foam since gravity does a fine job of keeping it in place. All of the buildings, etc. are glued to the foam and haven't shifted one bit in six years.
Bottom line......garage layouts, even in Michigan, are compatible with model railroads as long as certain parameters are met.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

raleets said:


> Bottom line......garage layouts, even in Michigan, are compatible with model railroads as long as certain parameters are met.


I think a lot of this depends on how you define "garage". How do you maintain temperature and humidity control when you are pulling your cars into the garage? How do you maintain dust control when you are using power tools in your garage?

In my opinion, if you're not using a garage for it's intended utilitarian purposes, but rather keeping it closed up year round, then I would define that as a 'shed' rather than a garage. It may seem like a petty nit-picking of words, but in this sort of discussion it really makes a huge difference as to what conditions you expect your layout to be exposed to. And the only thing that could make my conditions much worse would be if my garage was not attached to the house.


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## Wickerdave (Feb 16, 2017)

frame and base, what do you lay the sheets of pink foam on? Do they just lay on the top of the frame work, which sheet thickness? Here's a question, has anyone ever tried or considered welding up framework from angle iron vs. cross bracing and frame work with 1x4s


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I think a lot of this depends on how you define "garage". How do you maintain temperature and humidity control when you are pulling your cars into the garage? How do you maintain dust control when you are using power tools in your garage?
> 
> In my opinion, if you're not using a garage for it's intended utilitarian purposes, but rather keeping it closed up year round, then I would define that as a 'shed' rather than a garage. It may seem like a petty nit-picking of words, but in this sort of discussion it really makes a huge difference as to what conditions you expect your layout to be exposed to. And the only thing that could make my conditions much worse would be if my garage was not attached to the house.


My "garage", which it is, was built 21 years ago with the express purpose of housing my three collectible Buick show cars, along with an extensive petroliana collection.
That is the reason there are no windows, and the doors are opened only to pull out or drive in one of the show cars. The driveway into the garage is blacktop, therefore no dust.
A little over six years ago the model train hobby bit hard and the cars politely agreed to share their pampered housing with trains.
Now you know the rest of the story, and I'm stickin' too it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Some just glue the 2" foam right on the cross members.

I have found that there are times when I've had to
crawl up on the benchwork to do some chore. There
are other times I've had to put much of my body
weight on the layout as I lean over to do some work.
For those reasons I prefer at least a 1/4" plywood
top to support the foam.

There are devices that you may want to attach under
the top such as turnout motors and cable hangers.
A good wood top is ideal for screwing these on.

Just about every material has been used over the
years to build benchwork. Steel among them. Most
of us, however stick to the tried and true 1X3 or
1X4 construction. It is sturdy enough to support
even the occasional crawl on yet light if you want
to move the layout.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Masonite "cookie cutter" sub roadbed*



Shdwdrgn said:


> Since I'm going to be in a similar boat, I have a couple ideas to throw out, please let me know if these are feasible?
> 
> For the framework, I was thinking of using a minwax oil-based penetrating stain. I would think the stain would help keep out the moisture over the years? On previous projects, after the stain has dried I have finished pieces off with a couple coats of polyurethane. Not only does the poly make a tough final coat, but I think it would also do a good job of keeping out the moisture?
> 
> ...


Shdwdrgn;

I think you may have problems with the Masonite supporting your track. Masonite, and MDF (medium density fiberboard),and pressed wood (AKA. Particle board) are all "manufactured wood products." This means they are made from recaptured sawdust at the lumber mill. The dust particles are glued together and compressed. The resulting material just loves to absorb moisture, and is fairly notorious for warping. Granted, you are planning to use the "best of the bunch", in terms of moisture absorption, the dark, hard, Masonite; but its a pretty poor bunch! 
My old HO layout used Masonite, supported every two inches by pine risers, as roadbed. It warped, and the track developed dips and bumps because of that warping. 
By contrast, plywood has the advantage of having the multiple plys set in different directions. This helps it resist warping to some extent, though the main purpose of this ply arrangement is strength. However, Plywood still can, and does, warp.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "having the track bed float". I recommend firmly attaching the track bed to not only the vertical risers, but to continuous horizontal 1/4" x 1" beams all along both edges. The risers should be screwed to the grid cross-members of your layout's framework. People often make their layouts too strong, and heavy by using oversized lumber to build them. But I don't think you can build whatever supports the track that must stay flat, too rigid.

I would recommend three things.

1) Use 1/4" Luan plywood instead of the Masonite. Though it is smaller and lighter than other plywood, it still has that stronger cross ply construction.

2) Use the "deck girder bridge" construction I mentioned in my prior post, and showed in the first photo. Reinforcing the roadbed in this manner makes it very strong, rigid, and resistant to warping.

3) Paint, or seal, every bit of wood on the layout. My current N-scale layout is well over 20yrs. old; and has had no warping problems.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Plastic lumber*



time warp said:


> Has anybody tried vinyl lumber or composite deck structure for framework?


time warp;

I have not used it, nor have I heard of it being used, but it sounds like it could be a good idea.:thumbsup:

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Very cool info so far, thanks to all the replies. I'm half hoping to build the general framework this Summer, but still a long ways off from starting on any track bed. Plenty of time to plan though.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> time warp;
> 
> I have not used it, nor have I heard of it being used, but it sounds like it could be a good idea.:thumbsup:
> 
> Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


It's primary drawback is that it is significantly more expensive than untreated lumber and some paint.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

time warp said:


> Has anybody tried vinyl lumber or composite deck structure for framework?


I'm not familiar with all material, but PVC type fake wood trim is very flexible, so that stuff may not be good for support. Perhaps the deck material is sturdier.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

traction fan said:


> time warp;
> 
> I have not used it, nor have I heard of it being used, but it sounds like it could be a good idea.:thumbsup:
> 
> Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


 Might be the way to go in some environments, just a thought.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The PVC fake wood trim may replace the Masonite strips holding the track. Less dust,but may not bend like masonite.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Hmm this gave me an idea. It would take a lot of work to build, but then there would be no concerns about humidity...

I've done several projects using PVC pipe as a source for material. For thicker pieces you can stick it in the oven at about 225F to flatten it out. Thinwall pipe can be worked with a regular heat gun. So let's say for an HO layout you take some 2" pipe, split it in half on a table saw, then drop one half along a 2x4 board and use the heat gun to flatten the center but leave the edges curved. Now you have a straight channel to lay your roadbed on, and once mounted to the framework vertical supports it shouldn't ever twist.

Taking this one step further, you'll also need to fit curves. Use a band saw and cut slits less than half way through on alternating sides, then the slits will allow you to bend the PVC to follow your track plan (and should automatically create easements the same way as flex track). Each piece of pipe comes in 10 foot lengths, and since you're splitting the pipe in half you get 20 feet of track out of each pipe. You would have to get fancy at crossings and turnouts, but PVC is really easy to work with.

I'm not quite sure about the expansion characteristics of regular track, but I bet a PVC bed would be a lot closer match than wood, and you would never have to worry about getting cracks in a the sealing paint over the years.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Now we're getting somewhere! May or may not be the perfect idea but certainly interesting.
Another idea might be to use the vinyl 1x2 or 1x3 in a spline fashion. Lay up 3 or 4 lengths edge wise, establish the curve, and then shoot screws through from the side. There would be great strength and stability in the multi piece roadbed. Wide or straight sections could be made up of the wider 1x6 material. Incorporate the pipe as well, maybe for uprights?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Splines, that's what I was thinking, just could not come up with the name. Making 2" strips of masonite is messy, using something precut like plastic molding would be a lot easier. I can see it bending and making curves, I just wonder about how it works on vertical easements. It would be ideal to put road bed on like milled homasote. I've also thought about using drywall for roadbed but that may bring in a lot of mess compared to milled homasote. I just not far enough along in designing my around the bedroom layout to actually try this so hopefully someone will experiment. I seem to recall Joe Fugate MRH magazine mentioning something something about this.


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