# Circuit Breakers



## icolectto (Nov 28, 2012)

I found a YouTube video on adding circuit breakers on the power lines coming from my Lionel ZW transformer. He mentioned Eaton miniature circuit breakers WMZS1C03. In going to the recommended supplier, I found that they have been discontinued.
Can anyone tell me a suitable substitute?

Thanks


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Basically you want a 3 amp circuit breaker. By Google I found a ZE 700 found on ebay at 4 or 3 amps for $4.99. Amazon had it for thirty! Some one like Digikey may be cheeper. If you need just one ebay is okay.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

You want magnetic breakers they respond instantly. Most breakers are thermal and for modern engines they don't pop fast enough when there's a short.
.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

if your running postwar stuff i would just get some auto reset automotive cb's and inline blade fuse holders from autozone, o'reilys, etc.

i use 7.5 amp.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

If you are protecting modern engines, the fastest thing is a fuse. They are a pain to replace every time there is a short, but much less of a pain (and expense) than replacing a PC board.

I started out with 10 amp mini automotive fuses, then I added 10 amp magnetic hydraulic breakers. The fuses always beat the breakers. I switched the fuses to 15 amp and the breakers usually opened first, but not always as fast as I would have liked so I switched back to 10 amp fuses. 

I should have bought these 5 amp breakers and that’s the one I would recommend if you go with breakers.
http://www.digikey.com/product-deta...-airpax/PP11-2-5.00A-XX-V/723-1267-ND/2781056

But fuses are cheap and as I said they are fast.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/littelfuse-inc/0297010.WXNV/F991-ND/146591


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Lehigh74 said:


> If you are protecting modern engines, the fastest thing is a fuse. They are a pain to replace every time there is a short, but much less of a pain (and expense) than replacing a PC board.
> 
> I started out with 10 amp mini automotive fuses, then I added 10 amp magnetic hydraulic breakers. The fuses always beat the breakers. I switched the fuses to 15 amp and the breakers usually opened first, but not always as fast as I would have liked so I switched back to 10 amp fuses.
> 
> ...


When I had my PW ZW, I used 10A fuses between the transformer and the track. (I think I said this in another thread)  The local stereo store/Radio Shack would sell me the fuses for $.75 a piece. I tried 10A car breakers, but they didn't react as fast as the fuses. I was about to try 5A breakers, but I ended up trading in my PW ZW for a ZW-C that has fast acting breakers and now I use a Powermaster that is powered by a 180w brick with my Cab1-L TMCC and it works great in command mode and conventional.


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## icolectto (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks to all. I appreciate the help and will follow through.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Many PW layouts use PTC devices as shown here. One for each block. They are cheap and easy to use.They reset automatically and trip quickly.

The devices shown are 4 amp hold, 8 amp trip. RUEF 400


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

I first bought circuit breakers for my post war ZW from Scott's Odds and Ends, they were expensive compared to the next set of circuit breakers I bought from Mouser Electronics. I am now using 7 amp 120 volt breakers from www.mouserelectronics.com They cost around 3 to 4 dollars each.

Lee Fritz


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## icolectto (Nov 28, 2012)

Thank you for the additional help.


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

icolectto said:


> Thank you for the additional help.


If you are looking to protect newer engines with electronics and using an older transformer then a TVS(transient voltage suppressor) should be used as most older transformers have a very high amp breaker in them. Also a 7 or 8 amp fast acting circuit breaker would help in addition to the TVS unit.

Lee Fritz


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## icolectto (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks again. Parts have been ordered and hope to get started soon.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

rkenney said:


> Many PW layouts use PTC devices as shown here. One for each block. They are cheap and easy to use.They reset automatically and trip quickly.
> 
> The devices shown are 4 amp hold, 8 amp trip. RUEF 400
> 
> View attachment 274314


These look interesting. I am currently running PW locos with a ZW but would like to better protection as I am interested in adding some more modern locos. How are these incorporated..... neatly? Are they better than a 3 or 4 amp circuit breaker?

Ken


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A PTC does not trip anywhere near as fast as a magnetic circuit breaker! It doesn't trip any faster than the commonly available thermal breakers.

RUEF400 Specification Sheet

Note below, it can take up to 12.7 seconds for the PTC to trip at 20 amps! This is slower than the cheap thermal circuit breakers. Note that this is a maximum time, but it'll still take a long time for it to trip on an overload.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

What timing! I’ve been going through fuses like crazy while dialing in my O27/Gargraves “streets” track. So, I’ve been thinking once again about getting some breakers. On another thread (which I couldn’t find) someone said they had been using Eaton FAZ series thermal magnetic breakers. I’m thinking about using FAZ-B3-1-SP breakers (link and chart attached). They look like they will open at between 9 and 12 amps in .005 to 2 seconds. T-Man recommended a 3 amp breaker 3 years ago, but I’m not sure if that will work for me. I sometimes run postwar, but more often run modern locos. Most of my passenger cars have been converted to LED lighting, but I do still have some with incandescent lights. A PW two motor loco uses about 30 watts.

Anyone know what a modern 2 motor diesel or one motor steamer draws (with smoke on)? How about a modern passenger car with incandescent lights?

https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...3-1-SP&categoryId=0&TxnNumber=-1&searchqty=10


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

So I guess PTC is out then. John I assume then that a magnetic breaker would be the way to go. Given the ZW I am using and that I am electronically challenged, what would your recommendation be as to a breaker?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Correct, if you want a fast acting circuit breaker, the magnetic ones are typically the fastest. Here's a 10A one that's suitable for your situation, it'll be much faster acting than any of the thermal alternatives.

10A Magnetic Breaker for $10.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Correct, if you want a fast acting circuit breaker, the magnetic ones are typically the fastest. Here's a 10A one that's suitable for your situation, it'll be much faster acting than any of the thermal alternatives.
> 
> 10A Magnetic Breaker for $10.


John,

What do you think of the 3 amp version of that FAZ that I am considering? Do you think that would trip when running say two modern locos with 2 motors each, smoke on and 5 or 6 passenger cars with incandescent lights?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bob, I suspect with dual diesels with smoke and six incandescent passenger cars, you would be knocking on the door to kicking a 3A breaker. Usually, a dual diesel will be pulling around an amp or a bit more with smoke with a light load, and incandescent passenger cars are in the .3 to .4 amp range each. I noticed they didn't have anything between 3A and 10A on that site. What you're really worried about is a short circuit on a derailment or the like, right? Why not just use the 10A model?


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Bob, I suspect with dual diesels with smoke and six incandescent passenger cars, you would be knocking on the door to kicking a 3A breaker. Usually, a dual diesel will be pulling around an amp or a bit more with smoke with a light load, and incandescent passenger cars are in the .3 to .4 amp range each. I noticed they didn't have anything between 3A and 10A on that site. What you're really worried about is a short circuit on a derailment or the like, right? Why not just use the 10A model?


I have 10A Snapak magnetic hydraulics now, but the 10A mini fuses nearly always beat them.

They do have the FAZ breakers sized between 3 and 10 amps at automation direct. I just pulled up B4, B5 and B6 and they are all in stock.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Fast blow fuses will beat most circuit breakers with the exception of truly 100% electronic circuit protection.

For your circumstance, the 5A one should work, and you might even get away with the 4A looking closely at the trip curves. It really depends on what actual power you pull. You can pull up to around 2X the rating for 30 seconds with the Type B breaker. However, if that persists for a long period or is continuous, the breaker will trip at some point in the near future, the long term overload curve tapers down to around 120% of the rating of the breaker.

However, IMO, there's no reason to skate that close to the edge. If you have something that protects against shorts, I personally wouldn't want it to be on the hairy edge and trip if an extra passenger car rolls into the power district.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I think I’ll try the 4 amp breakers and see how that goes. If the 10 amp fuses still beat those breakers, I’ll switch the fuses to 15 amp and/or try 3 amp breakers. I want to make sure I don’t blow the fuses in my TIU.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I got a couple of 3 amp FAZ breakers and a few 4 amp. So far (2 out of 2 derailments on the streets loop), the 3 amp breaker beats the 10 amp mini fuse.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

Lehigh74 said:


> I got a couple of 3 amp FAZ breakers and a few 4 amp. So far (2 out of 2 derailments on the streets loop), the 3 amp breaker beats the 10 amp mini fuse.


Good to know Bob. I ordered some as well but have not gotten around to installing them them out yet. 
How did you mount/orientate them?

Ken


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I bought 2 meters of the 35mm DIN rail from Automation Direct when I got my breakers even though I only needed a few inches. I mounted them inside a 5 X 7 X 3 box that I had bought back when I got my last set of breakers but never used.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

Looks great. I may do something similar.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bob, where did you get the panel? Is that made for the breakers or just one you cut out to fit them?


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Bob, where did you get the panel? Is that made for the breakers or just one you cut out to fit them?


I got the box from Digi-Key a few years ago. I cut the lid to fit the breakers with a sabre saw.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks, just curious.


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

instant breaker


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> I got a couple of 3 amp FAZ breakers and a few 4 amp. So far (2 out of 2 derailments on the streets loop), the 3 amp breaker beats the 10 amp mini fuse.


The 4 amp Eaton FAZ type B breaker also beats the fuses. And it didn’t trip when running three trains: MTH Premier Pioneer Zephyr (with incandescent lighting), Williams GG1 (converted to DCS PS3) pulling 7 passenger cars (4 LED lighted), MTH PRR G-5s pulling 8 loaded military flat cars and one lighted caboose.


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## ERIE610 (Jan 19, 2015)

*MARX TRANSFORMERS*

In response to BENZ TRAINS posting of a You Tube video showing a Marx #1209 transformer with a separate circuit breaker added. I thought that the 50 watt Marx 1209 looked very very familiar. To make a long story short. Recently I purchased a large storage tub containing a good bit of tubular 054 curves & straight track & HO items plus transformers at a local Antique Mall for cheap. One of the transformers was a 50 watt Marx #1239. The #1239 is just a #1209 with a built in circuit breaker. They look the same at first glance but the #1239 has a red reset button just above the output terminals. The transformer works like a champ but I have not had the occasion to see if the circuit breaker even works let alone it's response time to a direct short. 

I DO HOPE THAT THIS TIDBIT IS HELP FULL.

INTERNET AQUIRED PHOTOS SHOWN


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Lehigh74 said:


> The 4 amp Eaton FAZ type B breaker also beats the fuses. And it didn’t trip when running three trains: MTH Premier Pioneer Zephyr (with incandescent lighting), Williams GG1 (converted to DCS PS3) pulling 7 passenger cars (4 LED lighted), MTH PRR G-5s pulling 8 loaded military flat cars and one lighted caboose.



Wouldn't you expect that - A 3 amp breaker tripping before 10 amp fuse blows? And what type of fuse, slow blow, fast blow ...


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Yes. That was my expectation, but I wasn’t positive till I tested it. As I noted above (two years ago), the 10 amp automotive mini fuse beat a 10 amp magnetic hydraulic breaker, but a 15 amp mini fuse also beat the 10 amp breaker sometimes.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Well, I think I found the limit of the 4-amp Eaton FAZ breaker. I recently got another 5-car set of PRR (incandescent lighted) Madison passenger cars. I added them to my 7 cars (2 baggage with no lights and 5 with LED lighting) being pulled by a Williams GG1. After about 80 feet, the breaker opened. I put 3 of the new coaches on an unpowered siding, tried again and the train ran fine. Added one of the coaches back into the consist and the breaker opened in about 80 feet. There was also a lighted caboose on a siding. These MTH Madison passenger cars are heavy so I suspect the load of 10 to 12 cars on the GG1 and the incandescent lights made the breaker very unhappy.

Also, I may have broken the breaker. When I power up now, the lighted cars don’t come on for a few seconds, then I hear a snap at the breaker and the lights come on. Doesn’t SEEM to affect the watchdog (the locos on that circuit don’t startup in conventional).

Looks like I’ll be getting a few 5-amp breakers. I think I will also be getting some LED lighting regulators.


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