# Smoke generator lionel scout post war



## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

I have a lionel scout engine and a Pennsylvania loco that do not have smoke generator. Can one be installed?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Engine numbers would help.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's more of a question of "how much do you want to spend?". However, Mike is correct, first step is to tell us the model you have.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

I'll get numbers tonight and share them. Sorry


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Heres the two locos I'm referring to.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The 246 is one of a series of similar Scout locos with identical motors. Some had smoke. Are you sure your's doesn't have the generator - just not working" If not, Might be easiest to find a non-working (e.g., cheap) loco in the series and transplant the smoke generator. Here's *Olsen's 246 Service Manual* excerpt below.

I doubt the Penny is worth adding smoke. WIth patience and diligence, you might be able to score an entire loco for the price/effort of adding smoke to Pennsy.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Ok, thank you! It looks like the smoke generator just plugs into where bulb is. This would make sense since i look at my loco and it has the light, but a ton of room in there for a generator. I'll look for one! Thank you!!


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Millstonemike said:


> The 246 is one of a series of similar Scout locos with identical motors. Some had smoke. Are you sure your's doesn't have the generator - just not working" If not, Might be easiest to find a non-working (e.g., cheap) loco in the series and transplant the smoke generator. Here's *Olsen's 246 Service Manual* excerpt below.
> 
> I doubt the Penny is worth adding smoke. WIth patience and diligence, you might be able to score an entire loco for the price/effort of adding smoke to Pennsy.
> 
> View attachment 548843


Found this one , mike. Will it work?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Looks to be the one.

Larry


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

On page 44 of Greenberg's Repair and Operating Manual it states smoke generator No 236-50 can be installed in any non smoking loco of this type -page 42 
Smoke generator 233-50 is the same as above with only difference being the ohm resistance inside it. So also can be used.
Loco No.
246
245
236233
235
the no 233 and 236 engines came with the smoke gen.

Your 250 engine has a better more easily maintained motor where as the brushplate is outside not inside its motor and also a 2 position e-unit and can be converted to a 3 position lever down e-unit compared to the above scout engines.
Hope this helps.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Forgot to add your 250 just not positive if the smoke gen will fit but if the casting is the same it just may.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Thank you, 
Mine is actually a 246 not 250, so it should work according to the referenced repair manual correct?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

cbishop said:


> Thank you,
> Mine is actually a 246 not 250, so it should work according to the referenced repair manual correct?


Yes it will fit yours and ones below according to Greenbergs.

Loco No. Year made Motor number Magnets Smoke
246 1959 246-200 1 low power No
245 1959 245-200 2 low power No
236 1961 236-100 1 high power No
233 1961 233-100 2 high power Yes ALSO came with whistle tender 233W
235 1961 236-100 1 high power No
Still have a few packed away they can be a pain in the backside those plastic side motors , took one apart long ago and never got it back together if memory serves correct when opened everything went flying out of such as springs and brushes.
Believe it or not some scout motors had 1 or 2 magnets for grades just they could not pull a lot of cars but who would have thought. ' )


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Dieseler said:


> Yes it will fit yours and ones below according to Greenbergs.
> 
> Loco No. Year made Motor number Magnets Smoke
> 246 1959 246-200 1 low power No
> ...


Does this 236-50 use smoke fluid? Got it installed, however no smoke. The light works. Also, on the wiring, do i put the lead that was used for the light on the screw with the lead for the smoker? Or just the one for smoker. Wondering if has something to do with it. 
Also in the pic of the one i bought above there is a purple wire, not sure what its purpose would be?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes smoke fluid , usually one wire lead has a something on its end like a solder lug which goes to front truck bracket screw as your ground the other goes to hot side such as pickup roller etc.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The center rail is connected to the reverse unit and it also connected to the left side of the smoke unit to power the resistor and light. The right side the light and resistor are connected to the frame lug.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Dieseler said:


> Yes smoke fluid , usually one wire lead has a something on its end like a solder lug which goes to front truck bracket screw as your ground the other goes to hot side such as pickup roller etc.


Ok, that makes sense. How do i access a "hot side" pick up roller,? I'm assuming that will be inside motor?


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Where would o solder the hot wire for the smoke generator?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

The smoke unit has a pointy piece that should be inserted into the top hole of motor as shown in this diagram and presses against a metal strip thats where it gets its power.
Your post #5 picture attachment shows smoke unit, that pointy piece i refer to is on back of smoke unit toward the top back and should have a eyelet at its end to make its hot contact when placed as shown below into hole in motor. and the ground lug connected to front metal wheel brackets screw.
Some scouts without factory smoke unit just had a bulb in that hole in motor that lit up when power was applied.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Ok, perfect! Secondly, i know I'm throwing a lot out there. I so appreciate the help!! 

One more thing, 
I am wanting to make this a forward only motor, i have no need for reversing as it is on its own elevated continuous loop track, also to make quieter. Could i just not attach the lever? Or is there another way? As always, thank you!!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I would reassemble it as stock. Then lock the motor in forward using the reverse lever to lock out the E-unit.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You may have another problem. The smoke unit sits on the steam chest assembly. It needs to have a hole for the smoke generator. Take a look at the diagram again and check out the square hole for the front truck Assy.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Dieseler said:


> The smoke unit has a pointy piece that should be inserted into the top hole of motor as shown in this diagram and presses against a metal strip thats where it gets its power.
> Your post #5 picture attachment shows smoke unit, that pointy piece i refer to is on back of smoke unit toward the top back and should have a eyelet at its end to make its hot contact when placed as shown below into hole in motor. and the ground lug connected to front metal wheel brackets screw.
> Some scouts without factory smoke unit just had a bulb in that hole in motor that lit up when power was applied.
> View attachment 549016


I have the pointy piece into the hole on top, which powers the light. I figured this would power the whole thing as well, however only the light is working. It seems that i need to solder that purple wire somewhere for power to generate smoke?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

If the light works, then, (obviously) it is getting power from the outside and center rails. The purple wire does not look original. Either replaced a broken wire or added - perhaps to control the smoke unit with an on/off switch.

This *eBay link* shows the smoke unit from several angles. Perhaps that will enable you to discern the proper wiring.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

cbishop said:


> I have the pointy piece into the hole on top, which powers the light. I figured this would power the whole thing as well, however only the light is working. It seems that i need to solder that purple wire somewhere for power to generate smoke?


Take a few pictures of your actual smoke unit perhaps that will help us here.
Also It is quite possible the smoke element is burnt out but lets see the smoke unit and all its wires.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Just test it. Two wires from the transformer on each side of the smoke unit. Add smoke and throttle up. Then use the puffer mech.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

T-Man has the best way to simply test if your smoke element is good with transformer leads and no need to connect to motor to test it.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

I tested it and nothing.......seller said working, hopefully can get refund, unless anyone has a fix? Attached are requested pics.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

If not working return it. That purple wire is not original to that 236-50 smoke unit.
Lionel parts dot com appears to have a new old stock one at 20.00 plus 9.00 to ship it part # 236-50
Be careful when looking for another because there are some that are similar such as a part # 236-50X which would not work with your motor.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Thanks! I returned it. 

Any suggestions on eliminating the reverse function? Only want forward function.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

cbishop said:


> Thanks! I returned it.
> 
> Any suggestions on eliminating the reverse function? Only want forward function.


I posted same before ... why not reassemble as original (with reverse) and then use the reverse lever to lock the loco into forward. You never know what the future may hold.

It's easy to do: Power the loco on and off until the loco is running in forward. Then power off and then switch the reverse lever position, The loco will now be locked in forward.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Millstonemike said:


> I posted same before ... why not reassemble as original (with reverse) and then use the reverse lever to lock the loco into forward. You never know what the future may hold.
> 
> It's easy to do: Power the loco on and off until the loco is running in forward. Then power off and then switch the reverse lever position, The loco will now be locked in forward.


Ok, that makes sense. Honestly I'm nervous to reassemble the reverse unit in motor. I see the spring, and the gold lever, etc. But not sure how to put back together. The picture i attached above is how it came apart, does that little wire spring attach to the plastic direction switch? 

Also, does the relation/orientation of the brushes and brush springs on the brush plate matter? 

Thank you


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The attached diagram has the exploded view of the motor in it. You should be able to see the relation of the various parts and how they all fit together.
The brushes fit into the case first, with the springs pointing out and fitting into the drum and brush holder, per the diagram.

Truthfully, these Scout motors are a real pain to put back together, and you will find you need 3 hands to do so.


Larry


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Can't help with that motor. Just one point: The the reverse lever's sole function is switching power to the E-unit. When the lever position connects power to the E-unit, the E-unit will cycle each time track power is applied. When the lever disconnects power to the E-unit, the E-unit will remain in it's last position. That's how to lock it into forward, as before.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

So is the motor exposed or do just have to reinstall the drums? Splitting the frame exposed the lever and spring. It is something that just doesn't fit together. I could not find any specific threads on it.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Go to page 3 in Larry's attachment. Post # 33.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

All the parts will fit together properly when installed properly. These motors are a bear to work on and reassemble, and most people get very frustrated doing so. I did. There is a very specific sequence that must be followed to reassemble these motors, or you have parts popping out all over, and the stress level starts to rise very quickly.

Follow the diagram carefully and be patient, especially when getting the case halves together when everything wants to fly out. It will take multiple tries to get all the parts in place and the case halves together, but it will go together.

Most technicians will not attempt repairs on the Scout locos with this motor; they consider them ''disposable''.


Larry


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I know I'll never work on another one of these, what a PITA!


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Well, this is encouraging . Wish i wouldn't have messed with it now 😉


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Seriously though
Can i just not hook the reverse unit up , make it forward only and it be a hell of a lot easier to reassemble??


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You can leave the lever and spring out, but you have to stop the gear rotation. That is what changes the direction.
Maybe a piece of wood stuck in there may work.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Ok, so im on hour two, screw it. Tired of trying to get it back together. 

Gonna buy new motor. Should i search by engine #?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Searching -Yes you can but i would not risk getting a erratic motor as i recall when i had those scouts some would be running fine and then deiced to go the other way a common thing plus as you found out they are a real pain to fix.

Unless a family heirloom and dear to you i personally would not fuss with it. ; )
Something similar but with a better motor and easy to maintain such as a Lionel 247 engine has liquid smoke unit there are a few others and even diecast ones.

Years back i got rid of the scouts 242, 246 etc and bought a few 2-4-2 wheel configurations 247 etc and there decent runners easy to maintain.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That locomotive was one of Lionel's mistakes, and it was a big one.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Does the lionel1060 have the smoke function? 

Having hard time finding 247.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

The 1050 and 1060 did not have smoke units and no reverse with similar scout motor .
Engine #
233 - smoke - scout type motor
235 smoke - scout type motor
236 smoke - scout type motor
237 smoke- scout type motor
238 smoke -scout type motor
239 die cast -smoke -scout type motor - when in for repair in upgraded to metal sided easy to maintain motor -lionel bulletin
240 smoke part of sears space set expensive 
241 smoke scout type motor
242 no smoke scout type motor
243 smoke better metal sided motor
244 smoke better metal sided motor
245 no smoke scout type motor
246 no smoke scout type motor
247 smoke better metal sided motor
248 no smoke no light better metal sided motor
249 no smoke no light better metal sided motor 
250 no smoke better metal sided motor 
251 expensive

Many can be found on bay auction site when buying smoking engine careful some were removed not working etc
Did see yesterday a nice 247 with nice blue stripe better metal motor with smoke unit seen on underside picture in listing for buy it now 20.00 +10 to ship quickly sold

There are some decent buys if one is patient in their quest . ; )


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The 1060 has no smoke, although it could be retrofitted. It has the same plastic motor as the 246, but with the reversing mechanism removed so it is a forward-only locomotive.

The 247 locomotive has smoke and a more standard electro-mechanical reverse unit.


Larry


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Dieseler said:


> The 1050 and 1060 did not have smoke units and no reverse with similar scout motor .
> Engine #
> 233 - smoke - scout type motor
> 235 smoke - scout type motor
> ...


Dangit! I searched a lot yesterday, but didn't see that one. I woulda jumped on it for sure! Thank you very much! Your like a train encyclopedia 😂


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The 1130 and the 2034 have similar shells. The motors are much better. For what you are going to pay for a motor you may want to check out these engines.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

cbishop said:


> Dangit! I searched a lot yesterday, but didn't see that one. I woulda jumped on it for sure! Thank you very much! Your like a train encyclopedia 😂


The book has helped me thruout the years its so worn being held together with clear reinforced tape.
T-Man has a great point about the 1130 and 2034 there diecast and have the better metal sided motor its the same motor as some in list above but with a different part number all its gears, wheels, brushplate armature all have the same part number its one of Lionels better little motors of its time motor and easy to work on
The e-unit is also better in them some had 2 position some had 3 position with lever pointed downwards.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Dieseler said:


> The book has helped me thruout the years its so worn being held together with clear reinforced tape.
> T-Man has a great point about the 1130 and 2034 there diecast and have the better metal sided motor its the same motor as some in list above but with a different part number all its gears, wheels, brushplate armature all have the same part number its one of Lionels better little motors of its time motor and easy to work on
> The e-unit is also better in them some had 2 position some had 3 position with lever pointed downwards.


Found quite a few nice 247's. One question i have, how hard to install a new smoke generator? And are they readily available? 
One's I've seen have them, but are unsure if they work. Is it the same unit that goes in the scout?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The smoke unit in the 247 (no picture available - #247-8) is different from the smoke unit (#236-50) in the 246 loco.

Larry


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

The 247 smoke unit is not the same it has a plastic bracket on the side and attaches to the metal sided motor with screw.
Part # 247-8
Are they readily available? - they come up for auction once in a while after all they were made like 60 years ago like the engine itself.
One can rebuild one with a new smoke element if up to the task and can solder and expoxy things.


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## cbishop (Nov 26, 2018)

Does the 244 use the same generator 247-8?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Not sure only several smoke units for scouts listed.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

The 244 loco uses the 247-8 smoke unit also.

Larry


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