# What is up with Lionel's crappy smoke units?



## cboisits (Nov 22, 2015)

I just bought a BRAND NEW 2003 Nickel Plate Berkshire off of eBay and it is beautiful. When I first started running it, I couldn't believe it, it was actually puffing smoke and that made me so happy because my lionmaster challenger sucks at puffing smoke. But all of a sudden it stopped puffing out plumes of smoke. Why? There is a train show by me today. Do you think it would be wise to take it the train show and have one of the many vendors have a look at it. I tried a TMCC reset but that didn't work. Lionel has to get their act together and build a better smoke unit. Alright, I'm done ranting. Any words of wisdom? I appreciate your help.
-Christian


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Is the cab light blinking? Is so it could mean a stalled fan motor. If not, just try blowing into the stack. Many times the smoke fluid will form a bubble blocking the stack.

Pete


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I have a Lionel and it barely puffed any smoke from the day it was new and that only lasted less than a day, after that, nothing. Disappointing for sure.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Christian - In some of those older units there are some modifications you can make. You will have to pop the shell and take a look.

Here's a Lionel video. IMHO the 3 keys are:

1) Removing the "sock" from the resistor. Just don't nick, cut the wires on the resistor.

2) Open up the air inlet to the smoke unit. in the video.

3) Add new batting. If the batting in there is hard it cannot hold the smoke fluid and is essentially worthless.

Good Luck and let us know what you find.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> Is the cab light blinking?


That's only for Legacy with the RCMC, this is a 2003 TMCC model.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

cboisits said:


> I just bought a BRAND NEW 2003 Nickel Plate Berkshire off of eBay and it is beautiful...snip...


How about the exact Lionel product number, that will help us help you?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

cboisits said:


> But all of a sudden it stopped puffing out plumes of smoke. Why? . . . I tried a TMCC reset but that didn't work. Lionel has to get their act together and build a better smoke unit. Alright, I'm done ranting. Any words of wisdom? I appreciate your help.
> -Christian


I imagine Lionel might answer that they have indeed already built a better smoke unit since 2003, i.e. the various Legacy versions which post-date TMCC. Subject to knowing the product number I'd guess the unit you have is probably of the kind the video linked in a previous post explains. It might be a mechanical (piston) puffer unit but I can't recall Lionel issuing a NPR engine of this kind with that gear.

Sudden and total stoppage of smoke output is not necessarily a sign of a defective smoke unit. You don't mention re-filling it with smoke fluid but if you did it might take a while for one of these older units to start cranking out the smoke. With the engine powered up do you feel any heat coming out of the stack or any exhaust from it while the engine is running? If one of these older fan driven units (if that's what it is) actually fries you can usually tell by the smell of burned circuit board.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

*T*

I wouldn't say they got better over the years. They seem to be more problematic. The smoke units themselves are essentially all the same. You have a 3-5v dc motor turning a fan and a resistor with smoke batting. What differs is the control circuitry. Some of the early ones had a 27 ohm resistor powered off the tracks and a simple 5v regulator for the motor. Then they started using AC regulators to drive the smoke resistors. They wrap them in shrink wrap and don't screw them to a heat sink. Now the Legacy ones monitor motor current and shut the engine down when that current falls out of range.
When I do upgrades now I get the simplest units I can find usually from early 2000s and drive a 22-24 ohm resistor directly from the radio board and pulse the fan with my own circuitry or on one occasion John's chuffer.

Pete


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

cboisits said:


> I just bought a BRAND NEW 2003 Nickel Plate Berkshire off of eBay and it is beautiful. When I first started running it, I couldn't believe it, it was actually puffing smoke and that made me so happy because my lionmaster challenger sucks at puffing smoke. But all of a sudden it stopped puffing out plumes of smoke. Why? There is a train show by me today. Do you think it would be wise to take it the train show and have one of the many vendors have a look at it. I tried a TMCC reset but that didn't work. Lionel has to get their act together and build a better smoke unit. Alright, I'm done ranting. Any words of wisdom? I appreciate your help.
> -Christian


My LionMaster Big boy is a dud also when it comes to smoke out-put.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Norton said:


> I wouldn't say they got better over the years. They seem to be more problematic. The smoke units themselves are essentially all the same . . .
> When I do upgrades now I get the simplest units I can find usually from early 2000s and drive a 22-24 ohm resistor directly from the radio board and pulse the fan with my own circuitry or on one occasion John's chuffer.
> 
> Pete


Both Lionel and MTH seem to have gone for more prototypical smoke output (as in varying according to the theoretical load the engine is under) whereas users like me were used to Low-Medium-High adjustments and the occasional boost. I don't think that either of the manufacturers were very interested in telling the consumer a great deal about the why's and wherefore's of this. Well, so be it but I certainly agree that these more recent things are more problematic. 

I have got used to the recent Legacy settings including EFX but they are not a patch on my earlier (c. 2008) Legacy units, in particular the FEF-3 steamer and GE Evo diesel. :smokin:

The OP's problem must be different as he's either got an older fan driven unit with that annoying sleeve on the resistor or a piston-puffer unit. As GRJ says a model number would help.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Smoke units, by the very nature of the beast, are going to be more maintenance intensive than something like a can drive motor or sound board. It's pretty unrealistic to expect no maintenance on them over the long haul.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A smoke unit that works for 13 years is good in my book. Would you expect a smoke unit in storage for 13 years to work?


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

T-Man said:


> A smoke unit that works for 13 years is good in my book. Would you expect a smoke unit in storage for 13 years to work?


Many of my flyer engines still have the original wick in them, and they smoke up a storm.. And that's from the early 50's, late 40's.


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## MuhThugga (Apr 2, 2013)

The smoke unit in my Legacy Blue Comet worked properly for all of three days when I first got it in 2012. I had it repaired under warranty and it crapped out again in three days.

My entry level 8617 that I have had for 25 years, however, still smokes like a champ. Go figure.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Mine cropped out, out of the box. Oh the very first time if you got the side of your face on the floor, had your butt hiked up in the air, adjusted the lighting just right, crossed your eyes, and ripped one off - you'd swear you saw some smoke, but could definitely smell something in the air - so something was working. 

But seriously, it did puff a very faint stream of some a time or two.


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## cboisits (Nov 22, 2015)

Model # is 6-38050


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That locomotive uses a regulator, those are a fairly common trouble spot. Let's try something first.

When powered up and you have selected the smoke on from the remote, (AUX1, 9), then do this key sequence.

AUX1, AUX2, 9, H, then AUX2 again to save the setting. This sets the smoke volume to high. 

The L,M,H, buttons are the momentum buttons under the cover of the CAB1, they also select smoke volume.


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## cboisits (Nov 22, 2015)

I just tried it and it didn't work. You know when the smoke on and you press and hold "9" and you here the fan spin to put out some extra smoke? I don't hear that noise anymore. Even when I have the railsounds off and I just let the engine crawl at a low speed usually I hear that high pitched whir sound. Not anymore. I'm appreciating your help, please advise more. Thank you.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the smoke switch is verified on, and you have turned on the smoke from the remote with AUX1, 9, then you have a problem with the motor or the circuit driving it. Can you feed any heat or smell any fluid at the stack? Just wondering if the heater is working.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

The only smoke unit I'm having problems with is on my Legacy. The most expensive engine has the smoke unit problem while the cheaper engines work great. It was fixed once now it's acting up again. I can live without smoke.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

My controller does not have a smoke button, just a Direction, Whistle, and Bell and the Bell button don't work, never did. The loco has a smoke switch on the bottom.


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## cboisits (Nov 22, 2015)

John- I do smell smoke. Their is a little smoke being made but it just lingers in the stack and I even see some coming out from underneath the locomotive. As for heat, I'll get back to you in an hour or so as to whether or not I feel heat.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Just a thought: I don't think any Lionel smoke units of this vintage actually produce smoke at idle - the engine has to be moving for the fan to run and all you see at idle is some smoke being generated because the resistor is being kept heated to produce smoke when movement starts. If what you have is smoke coming out from under the engine when it's running that might suggest a fan motor problem or misalignment of the smoke output on top of the unit with the stack. Try running it slowly and see if you can hear the fan spinning or feel any air being pushed out of the stack. I would not be surprised if the fan motor has failed.

The only other thing I can think of based on my own experience is that units of this kind have a kind of U- or C-shaped gasket between the fan housing and the bowl where the resistor and wadding are located. It's part 3 in the exploded parts view below. If that gets misaligned or even if it's missing the fan won't be pushing air into the bowl correctly.


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## cboisits (Nov 22, 2015)

Yes. There is heat. The front of the engine is warm. I don't feel too much heat coming out of the smoke stack though. I was just running it and it was producing smoke but it was just falling out to the sides and lingering. I hope this helps. I appreciate it.
-Chris


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You have a fan issue. It's probably either the motor or the little regulator on the smoke unit, those are the top choices and the most frequent failures.


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## cboisits (Nov 22, 2015)

I often run my locomotive silent because its around the tree in the living room and I don't want the sound to annoy anyone. So when I lay down and watch my locomotive pass in front of my face I hear, or heard rather, a cyclical whine. That whine that you here when you press AUX-1, and 9 to get a boost of smoke. That sound is GONE. It just stopped the 2nd day out of the box. I agree that it is the fan. Is this a relatively easy fix?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Probably easy for me, I do this stuff all day.  It's hard to say, but I suspect you'll need some parts. I see a lot of failed motors, but I also see that little regulator crapping out with some regularity.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

You have to first determine if its the fan or regulator. Take the shell off and follow the two wires from the motor up to the circuit board. With power applied to the track, address the engine and hit AUX1 9 to make sure the smoke is on. Then measure across the terminals that the motor is connected to. If it reads ~5V then then regulator is OK and the problem is the motor. If no 5V then its either the regulator or power is not getting to the circuit board. If you have heat then you have power to the board.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, that's close, but I see shorted motors as well, and they'll drag the regulator down into current limiting, so that's not a sure-fire test. To test the regulator, unplug the motor connector.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

cboisits said:


> I often run my locomotive silent because its around the tree in the living room and I don't want the sound to annoy anyone. So when I lay down and watch my locomotive pass in front of my face I hear, or heard rather, a cyclical whine. That whine that you here when you press AUX-1, and 9 to get a boost of smoke. That sound is GONE. It just stopped the 2nd day out of the box. I agree that it is the fan. Is this a relatively easy fix?


I was going to ask if you can hear a chuffing sound when you run the engine; a "cyclical whine" might be the fan motor pulsing to produce smoke output in time with the driver rotation. If there's no boost that puzzles me (but then I'm no expert like others who have responded). If any sound of the fan spinning is gone then I'd suspect a fan motor or regulator issue. 

Replacing that motor and indeed the voltage regulator if it has blown is not a complicated job if you've worked on an engine of this kind before. You need the parts from Lionel and the wiring of a new motor/regulator is a little finicky. More generally, although I stand to be corrected on this, in my experience when the regulator goes it will typically be preceded by a huge smoke output as the unit is getting full track voltage and the resistor ultimately burns out. If you are still getting some smoke volume but it's not being expelled through the stack it strikes me that it's motor/alignment issues of the kind I've described in my last post.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, the regulator fails open more often than shorted, and I'm thankful for that. I've seen a couple of shorted failures, and there will be no mistake when that happens! You suddenly get 40-50 watts being dissipated in a 1/2 cubic inch space, the results are, shall we say, spectacular! You will also smell the strong smell of burnt circuit boards, the smoke PCB rarely survives the shorted current. I saw one shorted regulator in person at our club, it was impressive. The poor guy that owned the locomotive was very impressed with the smoke output until I hit the kill switch. I was too slow anyway, new regulator, new smoke PCB, nasty smell for a few months even after replacing all the parts.


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