# What's wrong with my wiring of switches?



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

I need a little assistance from the forum. I am trying to figure out why I am getting shorts when the locomotives run across these two switches. I'm not sure if you can see the wiring (in at work, so I can take better shots later), but it's only happening on these two.

I'm not sure if it's because they are old switches (they're at least 20 years old), or it's my wiring. I am new to switching on dcc, so I wired the outer to positive and negative to inner, like the main bus.

Can someone possibly shed some light?









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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I would recheck the wiring. Sounds like polarity is reversed at or near switch (turnout).


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

mopac said:


> I would recheck the wiring. Sounds like polarity is reversed at or near switch (turnout).


Wait.. So the way I have them wired is that it's right after the rail joiners. So I shouldn't have voltage going anywhere near the actual switch (turnout.. I need to start calling them turnouts)? I will take some pictures later closer to the actual switch also for clarity. But thank you so much! 

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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

MatroxD said:


> Wait.. So the way I have them wired is that it's right after the rail joiners. So I shouldn't have voltage going anywhere near the actual switch


they look like atlas turnouts that require no special wiring. Of course the turnout rails should have voltage.

Do you have any plastic rail joiners or gaps? if so, is the rail voltage polarity the same on both sides of the plastic rail joiner? unless you have a reverse section (does look like it from photo).


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There is no difference in wiring polarities in DC vs
DCC. If it works DC it will work DCC. Electrically,
the main difference is DC vs the AC voltage of DCC.

I can't see your wiring well enough to determine
whether right or not.

The turnouts appear to be Atlas which have
plastic frogs.

There are a couple of possibilities causing your
turnout shorting.

One could be that you have the 'red' wire on the
right rail of the main line and the 'black' wire on
the right rail of the straight. When the loco wheels span this situation there is a short circuit. You can test this with your
multimeter set to AC volts. Place one probe on the
right rail of the divert and the other probe on the
right rail of the straight. If you get voltage in the
range of 14 to 18 volts you have one of your track
drops backwards. When it's right you should get
the same reading using probes on both divert rails and
also on both straight rails.

A second possibility is that the loco wheels have a wide
tread and cause a short in the frog. This can be
corrected by using a tiny dab of clear fingernail
polish where the two rails near each other in the frog.

Don


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

gregc said:


> they look like atlas turnouts that require no special wiring. Of course the turnout rails should have voltage.
> 
> Do you have any plastic rail joiners or gaps? if so, is the rail voltage polarity the same on both sides of the plastic rail joiner? unless you have a reverse section (does look like it from photo).


Hi Greg,

No I don't have any plastic joiners or gaps. And talking to someone about it at work, I'm thinking that may be my problem. I am completely green with the turnouts. And from what I did, I wired the polarity same on both sides (say the outside rail on both sides is positive and the inside trail on both sides are negative). If it is the plastic joiners, where exactly do I install them in the turnouts? Like do they go on the insides or outsides, or both? Completely need advice on how to redo this, and learn from the experience.. 

My work buddy mentioned also, that for me never messing with turnouts, me building one leading into another was asking for an issue.. Lol 

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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

DonR said:


> There is no difference in wiring polarities in DC vs
> DCC. If it works DC it will work DCC. Electrically,
> the main difference is DC vs the AC voltage of DCC.
> 
> ...


Don! Heya!

Lol, ok I'm going to have to take some pictures when I get home and maybe you guys can illustrate for me, because I'm confused (it's not you all, it's me with this). And I think I need like pictures with annotations to hand walk me through how to correct this.. Because the wiring is clear as day upon close up of I take some better pictures.. I'll be home in a couple hours so just, if you guys can, pontificate on it for me, and hopefully I won't have to rip track up. But if I do, now is the time... 



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## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

on my kato track if i got the wire crossed up then i get shorts IE blue wire on right rail and white wire on left rail now after the switch i had white wire on left rail and blue wire on left there for i had a short. your problem sounds like mine was. crossed feeders if you have them. i aalso get short if i dont switch my turn outs before a loco run into them IE switch thrown for other side of track when its supposed to be thrown for straight run.


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

sid said:


> on my kato track if i got the wire crossed up then i get shorts IE blue wire on right rail and white wire on left rail now after the switch i had white wire on left rail and blue wire on left there for i had a short. your problem sounds like mine was. crossed feeders if you have them. i aalso get short if i dont switch my turn outs before a loco run into them IE switch thrown for other side of track when its supposed to be thrown for straight run.


Hi sid,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure, now that everyone has asked. I called myself wiring off a diagram(the top one), but only sending to the outside of the switch. But, with one switch going into the other, it's possible the I did something backwards. That and maybe the insulated joiners. I'm not sure. I'll let the experts with this, look at the wiring(I can't wait for this 45 minutes to pass) and let me know.. And advise me how to avoid this in the future..










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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The two drawings you show us are the wiring
diagrams for a powered frog which you do not
have.

Note the blue and red 'rails' in the drawings.
That is how your wiring should be connected to
the turnouts.

Unless you have a reverse loop or some isolated
blocks you do not need any insulated joiners.

We'll be better able to find your problem once
we see the wiring better.

Don


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Ok, sorry it took so long guys. Migraine has hit me.. I hope you all can see the wiring in these and find out what you think I did incorrectly.

I hope it can be made out with the paint that didn't adhere well over my caulk..

Thank you all extremely much.. And the copper wire is the positive..









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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

I took a few more with the wire pulled out more. Hopefully these are better.. And just thinking about it more, do I even need them wired, as each turnout lane has its own feed from the bus? 










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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

*read the OP post slowy*

"...I am getting shorts when the locomotives run across these two switches...."

So, this implies NO SHORTS when just powering the track right?
This implies NO SHORTS when switches are switch if no locomotive is on the switch right?

I'll bet there are some 'fat' locomotive wheels shorting out the frog.

Does every LOCO short out or just the steamers?


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

what is the position of the loco on the turnouts when there is a short?

straddling the points, the frog, approaching from the points or the diverging rails, which turnout?


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Dennis461 said:


> "...I am getting shorts when the locomotives run across these two switches...."
> 
> So, this implies NO SHORTS when just powering the track right?
> This implies NO SHORTS when switches are switch if no locomotive is on the switch right?
> ...


No, no shorts when I run. It only happens actually when running across the second switch.. And yes, all locos. And it's like the picture attached.. No matter which direction.. And I only am running diesels(am Alco S3 and GP40) 

And just to eliminate everything,i disconnected everything around the turnouts. So it's got to be something with running two of them back to back possibly?

Whenever it hits this switch, in this position..









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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

gregc said:


> what is the position of the loco on the turnouts when there is a short?
> 
> straddling the points, the frog, approaching from the points or the diverging rails, which turnout?


Hi again Greg, see the latest pictures, and yes, I yes, when any Loco is straddling this frog.. It's the second one in from the outside main line..









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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

MatroxD said:


>


while i see the frog is under the loco, i don't think the rear wheels have even reached the turnout.

does a shorter loco cause a short in the same position (front, rear, middle)?

i would guess that if it's the turnout the problem is related to the wheels contacting the point rails (that move). I would check the voltage on the point and main rails 

with the loco causing the short, i would lift the front wheels off the rails and then the rear wheel to see which cause the short. (could be the wheel without pickups)


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Ok, did that to test, and it's exactly at this position, on the rear wheels.. When it's on the frog... And ok, just to experiment, I was able to install a plastic rail joiner on one of the inside trails, and make a tiny bit of a cut in the other inner rail.. Does no good... Maybe the wheel base is a bit too short on these engines for this switch? 

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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Take a look here.
Check for voltage at the red and green circles. All red should be the same, all green the same(opposite) polarity.

Connect your multimeter about a foot down the mainline.
Next, in the yellow circle, put some water based paint on rails, dry it with a hair dryer.
Carefully scrape paint off top of rails, then run a loco through.


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Ok, lol, this just gets better and better.. It's only happening going to one side of the turnout.. I just backed up into the other lane without any problem..

Ok, I think I isolated it. It's only happening when the switch is in this position(picture attached) and it goes into the inner track. I'm gonna try some clear nail polish between the rail and switch side to see if it eliminates it..









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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

MatroxD said:


>


is it the frog in this picture?

so the front wheels cross the frog without a problem, it's the rear wheels of the loco? does it short if the loco runs backwards, rear wheels first, in the same direction across the turnout?

what happens if you run a freight truck with metal wheels across these rails?


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

those points look bent, buy a new turnout.


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

gregc said:


> is it the frog in this picture?
> 
> so the front wheels cross the frog without a problem, it's the rear wheels of the loco? does it short if the loco runs backwards, rear wheels first, in the same direction across the turnout?
> 
> what happens if you run a freight truck with metal wheels across these rails?


Yes it is that one.. And I just noticed the "v" in the center versus the other ones. The others are coated in black plastic. This one has the metal exposed. I'm going to try the little nail polish on that also (I read this somewhere when I was trying to figure out this initially)..

I will probably end up replacing it, but before I spend that money, and rip up the track, I want to make sure of what it is.. 

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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Omg! Hilarious! Wife's fingernail polish to the rescue! Problem solved.... Ha ha ha ha I wonder how long it will last.. Hmmnnn.... 

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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Thank you all tremendously! I appreciate the time and effort in doing this for me.. I really do.. I'm just shocked and tickled at the same time..


Thanks guys once again! 

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## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

yeeeeee its fixed good job figgering that out.


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

sid said:


> yeeeeee its fixed good job figgering that out.


Yes, I messed with it quite a bit last night, with both locos and cards to make sure there were no issues.. I'm thrilled! It will work for the moment for sure..

Thank you for your suggestions and help! I never would have gotten it working without you folks.. 

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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The fingernail polish will work for quite a while. You'll
know to replace it when shorts appear again. You could
also FILE down ONE of the frog rails where you put
the nail polish. If it's too low for loco wheel to touch it,
it can't short.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, I just decided I had the time to process all this and weigh in, only to find you had already corrected the problem.

Don is right -- nail polish will actually hold up quite well, as long as you keep acetone away from it (that is, don't use it to clean your rails). Longer term, though, I agree with Dennis461: invest in some higher quality turnouts. Yes, you will have to realign your track a little, but you'll be money ahead in the long run.


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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

DonR said:


> The fingernail polish will work for quite a while. You'll
> know to replace it when shorts appear again. You could
> also FILE down ONE of the frog rails where you put
> the nail polish. If it's too low for loco wheel to touch it,
> ...


Cool.. And honestly, with the way I'm going, I'll be at least working on this again next year (some good of expansion). But yes, that is true. I'm pretty good with the dremel, so I may just try that..

Thanks a million Don! Your help is always appreciated and thank you for your time and efforts! 

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## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

CTValleyRR said:


> Well, I just decided I had the time to process all this and weigh in, only to find you had already corrected the problem.
> 
> Don is right -- nail polish will actually hold up quite well, as long as you keep acetone away from it (that is, don't use it to clean your rails). Longer term, though, I agree with Dennis461: invest in some higher quality turnouts. Yes, you will have to realign your track a little, but you'll be money ahead in the long run.


Lol, it was quite a PITA! But it's resolved for now. And I probably will at some point replace it (actually all of the older ones, but as indicated, there's emotional value tied to them(there's very little of that collection left that I received from the person) . So I'm not as quick to just replace them..

But sooner or later, I know I will have to.. 

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