# Rewiring lamp on Lionel 224



## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I have a Lionel 224 locomotive that is missing the front truck and lamp assembly. I purchased a new truck/lamp, but can't figure out how to wire it. The wiring on mine is not the same as the diagram in my Greenberg's book. That diagram shows black wires coming from either side of the E-unit, coming together across the top of the motor. One wire is designated "black wire to field" and the other says "black wire to shoe" but unfortunately, the diagram doesn't show exactly where the two black wires are attached. Any advice? Thanks. H


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hermione said:


> I have a Lionel 224 locomotive that is missing the front truck and lamp assembly. I purchased a new truck/lamp, but can't figure out how to wire it. The wiring on mine is not the same as the diagram in my Greenberg's book. That diagram shows black wires coming from either side of the E-unit, coming together across the top of the motor. One wire is designated "black wire to field" and the other says "black wire to shoe" but unfortunately, the diagram doesn't show exactly where the two black wires are attached. Any advice? Thanks. H


Just one wire goes to the light. One goes to the field and is tied in with the other that goes to the shoe.

That comes from the picture in my manual. 

Wait till T man comes on he will explain better I'm sure.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I have added pics showing both sides of the motor.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*224*

Thanks Ed for the intro . Is your last name McMahon? I feel like Johnny Carson.

Congrats on getting the engine apart H . I don't do it often. So I took pictures.
Ed is right about one wire. The wire from the center roller goes to the eunit on the left side facing the lever. This is hot, the restof the frame is ground so no second wire is necessary. The bulb connects to this point. That's it. 
I'll load pictures. The steam chest is ruined on my demo.
I could go on about the 224 with Baildwin wheels the square back is the older version. On parr with the 675. You got some real nice pieces.










THe left shows the solder point of hot. The wire goes from there to the base of the bulb. The right shows how to feed the wire. Around the back of the eunit and then low forward to stay away from the lever.








Be careful when placing the motor in. The wire has to be clear of the long screw.
I have more pictures under 24 in my photobucket-Pail Full link.
Any thing else? DId the trucks get straightened out?

A departing picture of the linkage.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

You are right; it is not easy to take apart; it took me awhile to figure it all out. If I understand correctly, I should solder the lamp wire to the front of the e-unit at the soldering point on the left side. It looks like the wire was broken off there. I'm guessing I should solder the wire there and then put the motor back onto the body, and then wire the loose end of the lamp wire to the lamp socket and finally put the front truck on. Does that sound right? Yes, I have found some nice pieces, including the 224, a 624 switcher and a Santa Fe diesel 2333 (the horn unit died because the battery was left in place and not discovered until 30 years later...). The switcher needed a motor cleaning, but the others all run pretty well, which is amazing considering their age. I took the opportunity to clean the brushes and commutator when I disassembled the 224, but it was running pretty well without a long load. I think it was designed to pull the very lightweight tin passenger cars.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

Just saw your pics. Very helpful and confirms what I posted. On the passenger car, I ended up taking off the coupler from an extra truck and that worked perfectly! Thanks!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I do need something from you. When you work on the F-3 2333 ( no rush please) I need to know how the wires are connected to the relay for the horn.I never had a horn and I need specifics on the wiring on the side. Ah post number 27 on this older thread. The purple lead ? The others I think are right.












Wow You do have a nice collection . I do no have a 624 switcher but I am guessing it is much older than my MKT 600.

Your plan sounds good. Make sure that wire doesn't ground out to the frame.

Thanks for the question. It will amaze others.

When you are ready for the 2333 post some prior pictures. It should clean up, if not ebay has frames. Wire brush the area and baking soda or tooth paste should neutrailize the acid.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

"Thanks Ed for the intro . Is your last name McMahon? I feel like Johnny Carson."

No problem lol glad to be of service

AND HERE'S T-MAN! LOL:laugh:

I KNEW YOU WOULD HAVE SOME PICTURES OF IT TO HELP OUT.
I don't, just my manual and it doesn't really show where to hook them.


edit..........
by the way T where did you see his collection I couldn't find any pictures.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I must report only partial success. When I first put everything back together, the locomotive ran for about 1.5 seconds, complete with light, and then stopped; no light. Power from the transformer only solicited a very slight buzz from the engine. I figured I might have shorted something out when I wired in the lamp, so I took it all apart again, checking the solder points and taping them to be sure they weren't touching anything they shouldn't. The engine ran fine without the body, although the lamp did not light. But when I put the motor back on the body and hooked up the front trucks to the lamp, no power again. No light. So I removed the front truck and taped the lamp. It did not light but the engine ran fine. The wiring goes from the solder point on the E-unit to the lamp, which is grounded by the clamp on the truck. Looks like the photos, as far as I can tell. Where did I go astray?

I notice from the photos that I am also missing the rail and pins that hold it in place.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I think I figured it out. Took another look at the existing wiring and found the place where the lamp wire should be spliced into the other black wires. It had been disconnected and covered with insulation. So I took the wire off where I had soldered it and spliced it into the other black wires, as indicated in the book diagram. The motor runs great now, and the light works, too! Thanks to all for advice and photos!!


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

One more comment: the engine doesn't seem to be working as well as before I disassembled it. It was able to pull the tender and a few cars. When I had it disassembled, I cleaned the commutator and brushes, but I also have some notes from the late 80s that the brushes need to be replaced. Maybe that is the problem; I can't think that the light would draw so much power as to weaken the pulling power significantly. Where can I get new brushes?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Just run it!!! After a cleaning the working surfaces need to work with the brushes. Either, that or you oiled it too much. Your brushes are the same as used in the whistle tender. Ebay may sell them in groups of ten. There are all sorts of parts dealers online. You may get lucky if you have a service center that has been around a long time. They would have it. It all depends where you live. THe parts thread was here. I found two. Also Hobby surplus in Conn. Just google Lionel Parts and they flow out of the woodwork.
Old Quote
":Favoring NJ, ED, I bought parts from East Coast train Parts who attended a local train show. There are many parts people, you may find one closer. A Stan Orr out of NY and DR Tinker in Mass if he hasn't retired.Then Jeff from the traintender is the CTT favorite. The Olsen's in Michigan too. Google and you will find it."


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hermione said:


> One more comment: the engine doesn't seem to be working as well as before I disassembled it. It was able to pull the tender and a few cars. When I had it disassembled, I cleaned the commutator and brushes, but I also have some notes from the late 80s that the brushes need to be replaced. Maybe that is the problem; I can't think that the light would draw so much power as to weaken the pulling power significantly. Where can I get new brushes?



try this too. back off of the brush plate screws a hair and try it. if it runs better you have to much tension on the brushes. and you can try to adjust the brush springs


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The plate does have cans for the brushes. Did you use a Q tip inside? Ed may be right they could be sticking.

Can I reassemble mine now? Are we finished?


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

Back to the 224 after holiday distractions ;-) It seems that although the 224 is running and the lamp works, the engine is now slower and weaker than it was. I'm wondering if a problem with the lamp is why the front truck/lamp assembly were missing in the first place. Is there something in this assembly that could cause a slow-down?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Only if the wire is cracked and shorting out. See if both your roller pickups work. Electrical contacts sometimes improve with use. You may want to clean up the drive wheels too.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Make sure your pickup roller and your track are clean, too. Oil dripping from the recent cleaning will dirty both, then you get a bad connection.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I cleaned the contact rollers, but they are also significantly grooved with wear. Perhaps they need to be replaced? Also checked transformer voltage at track and posts. Both show 12 volts wide open; should be 16. Would that make a difference?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

What's the transformer?
I think mine read 8 volts on the track. There is a voltage drop. Iam not sure if the posts reading means anything.
Rollers can be replaced.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I have a 1033, with leads to A-U, 5-16 V. I read volts on the track at 12, and checked 12V on the posts on the transformer, just to be sure I was not losing voltage from transformer to track due to long wire, etc. Will replacing rollers give a boost?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I do not think it has rollers. The KW and ZW do.
Did you shine your wheels up?


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

Sorry; didn't mean rollers for the transformer. Meant the contact rollers for the locomotive. I cleaned up the wheels early on. I suspect there is still old gunked up grease in the gears, but those are hard to get to.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

Also, the reason I checked voltage at the posts as well as at the track was to determine if the length of wire from the transformer to the track was causing a drop in voltage. It wasn't. All the trains run really well except this one, so I think it must be something in the locomotive, not the track. Also, it seemed to run better before I put the new lamp/truck on.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A small wire wheel on the rollers will help.
If you suspect the light disconnect it. As I said it could be old and cracked and shorting. Replace the wire too. Try running the engine with no shell. You will have to remove the rods. Be careful not no break a screw and never over tighten when torquing on nut/screws.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A small wire wheel on the rollers will help.
If you suspect the light disconnect it. As I said it could be old and cracked and shorting. Replace the wire too. Try running the engine with no shell. You will have to remove the rods. Be careful not no break a screw and never over tighten when torquing on nut/screws.

Now we suspect the engine and not the track. The e unit finger contact could be poor also. The drum nmay be dirty. Not a fun job the fingers don't like movement and takes some finesse to get them right. 

WHen running the engine look for shorts along the wires. You will see sparks.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> Just one wire goes to the light. One goes to the field and is tied in with the other that goes to the shoe.
> 
> That comes from the picture in my manual.
> 
> Wait till T man comes on he will explain better I'm sure.




Do you have this?
I pulled out the old manual to post on a different thread.
Maybe it will help you a little?


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I have the Greenburg's book with those same pages, thanks. Tried taking the lamp out of the socket; now the engine won't run at all, just buzzes. Does the lamp complete the circuit and so must be there? Or did I wire it incorrectly?


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

The drum nmay be dirty. Not a fun job the fingers don't like movement and takes some finesse to get them right. 

WHen running the engine look for shorts along the wires. You will see sparks.

What is the drum you refer to above? There are sparks along where the contact touches the track when it runs, but all my engines do that, so I thought that was normal...


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The lever on top is the e unit. If you look at the device it has a rotating drum.
The buzzing is from this unit. Hold it upright and cycle the power/ A click ound tell you the drum is rotating. The light has nothing to do with it. The drum is under those wires. Sorry for the big picture.












The drum is green. The silver thing is the pawl. When you hear a click the pawl is rotating the drum.










One thing we haven't looked at is the condition of the springs that hold the brushes down.
Between the older brushes worn down and the old springs both may cause a lack of contact and a lack of power. A worn armature surface doesn't help.


You can clean up the surface with 400 grit/crocus cloth. Be careful of the soldered points.


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## hermione (Dec 19, 2009)

I disconnected the lamp and wired the motor back the way it was when I found it, without the lamp or the front truck. The engine works MUCH better and will pull the tender now, although it's still kinda slow. This would seem to indicate that the lamp was causing the slowdown, but I guess I assumed that if the lamp were wired incorrectly, the engine would not run at all. I will post photos to show how I wired it. Maybe you guys can spot what I did wrong? Thanks.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

After you run it check the heat on the engine. If it is very hot, The windings may be going bad with age. After all, it is 60 + in age.

Also cycle the eunit and go forward and reverse. If this gives you trouble then those connection are bad. The last thing is that the soldered joints have to be good. Poor job is a poor connection. Make sure the iron is top hot heat for best results.


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