# I know nothing



## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Well actually I have been reading a lot of threads and now know just enough to get me in trouble. I too have many questions as many do coming into this hobby. I would like to model in HO on a 4x8 for now just to get my feet wet but want to expand later. The theme would be from around 1930's to 1960's and I will be running a steamer. I want to start out DC because I am dumber than a box of rocks when it comes to electronics but from what I have read DCC is the way to go, just don't know if I have the aptitude to do the DCC. After seeing some of the wiring that goes on in DCC through the threads I have seen scares the fool out of me.:retard: 
I would like to get a 2-8-2 or similar.(pre war) Are the BLI Locos better than the Bachmann as far as perfomance or is there no difference? What does PRR mean? Would I be able to get two main lines on a 4x8 layout? Can someone point me to a good quality steamer?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

dirtpusher said:


> Well actually I have been reading a lot of threads and now know just enough to get me in trouble. I too have many questions as many do coming into this hobby. I would like to model in HO on a 4x8 for now just to get my feet wet but want to expand later. The theme would be from around 1930's to 1960's and I will be running a steamer. I want to start out DC because I am dumber than a box of rocks when it comes to electronics but from what I have read DCC is the way to go, just don't know if I have the aptitude to do the DCC. After seeing some of the wiring that goes on in DCC through the threads I have seen scares the fool out of me.:retard:
> I would like to get a 2-8-2 or similar.(pre war) Are the BLI Locos better than the Bachmann as far as perfomance or is there no difference? What does PRR mean? Would I be able to get two main lines on a 4x8 layout? Can someone point me to a good quality steamer?


They say DCC is easier then DC to wire.
I would start a layout in the most amount of space that you can afford. As it always seems like you feel the need to expand at a later date. You don't have to use it all at once but it is easier then adding on later. ( I think)
PRR= Pennsylvania Railroad.

You can't go wrong with Kato locomotives.:smilie_daumenpos:
http://www.katousa.com/


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Here site with a lot of RR abbreviation names,


http://www.abbreviations.com/acronyms/RAILROADS

There are more, but this one has a lot and you can search by the letter.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks for the reply and the sites Big Ed. kato don't seem to carry a steamer unless I missed something. I have a 12x 16 area that will be dedicated to the layout so I can expand at any time. Can you do a basic layout using the DCC without all the bells and whistles (no pun intended) until I can get more familiar with everything?


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## Dwight Ennis (Oct 8, 2013)

DCC is no more complicated to wire than straight DC, and far less complicated if you want to run more than one train at a time. Two main buss wires with feeders running to the track and connected to the DCC system. If the layout is small, or if you just want to get running in a hurry, the DCC system can initially be connected directly to the track just like a small power pack, but that method is vulnerable to the same problems regardless of whether you're using straight DC or DCC. Feeders are recommended in either case to eliminate dead spots, stalling, etc.

Walthers also makes some very good steam locomotives in their Proto 2000 Heritage line.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Whoa Nellie...

...as a famed network sportscaster used to remark.

Dirtpusher, you've been seeing some the super high tech
computer related DCC stuff that
some of our very advanced members have been posting. They
are to be admired for their knowledge and creativity...
but don't let their postings affect your judgement of DCC.

The facts are...

...that of us are just down to earth guys who enjoy running
trains. We do DCC the simple way. Connect the controller's 2
wires to the track, turn it on and run trains. That's all there is to
DCC. There is no complicated wiring unless you have a very
large layout, and even then, it is simply broken up into blocks
with special circuit breakers, similar to the way your house
or vehicle is wired.

You must observe ordinary electrical rules on a
DC layout, and the same applies to DCC, but without all
of the complexity of isolated sections and dual power packs
to control more than one train at a time.

Your video recorder or Satellite remote control is more complex
than a DCC controller. So, if you can push a couple of
buttons to get the latest news, you can run DCC trains.

The best way to understand the simplicity is to see a
DCC layout in operation.

Don


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

you built that bulldozer and your worried about DCC. 

take it from me, (ho since 1954) and RC semis since 2003 you can handle the DCC.

i went from DC to DCC in two minutes. excluding the shipping time to get the DCC here.
it took more time taking the insulating joiners out of the spurs.

like some of the above said. two wires to the track, red to one side black to the other ( or what ever color you like). and your running. the hardest thing you'll have is when you get the second loco and you have to give it an address. and that is all explained in the books you get with the DCC equipment. 

forgot, another hard part, which system to buy.

skip.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks for the info guys. So I guess the next question is what DCC unit to buy? I'm starting with 4x8 and expand as my money and knowledge increase. My plan is to later make a U shape layout in the 12x16' area so will I need a bigger DCC at that time or does it just depend on the amount of trains I'm running? 

Wingnut, I thought I seen that name on the rc forum didn't know if it was you or not. Going to be picking your brain more than likely. I can fabricate and do the mechanics it's the electronics that will be the problem. The dozer and scraper (so everyone will know what were talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIs3vi7iC5c ) were fairly easy till I got to the electric part.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

What part of East Tx are you? I'm towards Greenville.

Now, DCC. I use an NCE Powercab for my display table. I used a Digitrax Super Chief for all other stuff including programming.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm in Nacogdoches. Will the NCE Powercab do what I need to do? I'll look it up.


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

DCC is cool, but I'd skip it for now. The size of your layout will really under utilize it's potential. I'd suggest picking up some different second hand track so you can see and hear the differences, find a nice engine, and some better ebayed rolling stock as a first step.

This will give you what you need to explore the hobby and find what you want to do.

HTH


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

I have found my sons old train with Atlas track (code 100) and there is some rolling stock with it. The loco is DC. My deal is that I'm going to buy a steamer for my permanent set up so I need to go DCC now don't I?

"so you can see and hear the differences" Not sure what you mean???


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

dirtpusher said:


> I'm in Nacogdoches. Will the NCE Powercab do what I need to do? I'll look it up.


Yeah!! SFA Party Town! I went to school at ETSU. Would travel to SFA for the parties once a month...the good ole' days!

Yes, the NCE will do what you are wanting, but it cannot run a DC operated locomotive.  The Digitrax can.

DCC does have sound decoders for locomotives and lights and motion. Once you go DCC, you do not go back. Once the you get bitten by the sound bug, well it's all over then.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Well I'm steadily schooling myself on the NCE Power cab and seems I might be able to handle it. Now, is still the question of the best steamer to buy. Someone recommended the Kato but I didn't see that they sell a steamer. These are the ones I'm looking at.

http://factorydirecttrains.com/12-2165usralightmikado2-8-2cn3423wparagon2sounddcdccho.aspx

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bachmann-51...team-Loco-ATSF-Santa-Fe-SF-9446-/181270520811

Would like to get the professionals opinion on these weather there worth it or is there some better locos with this configuration?
Do the tenders come with the loco usually?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I was thinking N scale for Kato. 
Diesels, I still say you can't go wrong with Kato.

If you go with Bachmann, the Spectrum line is better, higher quality.

Read through this,
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/model/HO-steam.php


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks Big Ed, I found that link yesterday when doing some research and still I'm undecided.


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## Dwight Ennis (Oct 8, 2013)

It's just as easy to start with DCC now as it is to start with a power pack and convert to DCC later.

I have a Digitrax Zepyr, and I bought one of their wireless utility throttles to go with it. Wasn't real happy with the performance of the utility throttle. I also have a Prodigy Wireless which I'm quite happy with, and a great beginner's DCC system.

Last week I bought an NEC Power Pro system. I should get it this coming Friday. My friend, a DCC Guru (compared to me anyway), swears by NEC. Supposedly it combines the capability of Digitrax with the "ease of use" of the Prodigy. 

I'll let you know.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

dirtpusher said:


> Are the BLI Locos better than the Bachmann as far as perfomance or is there no difference?



Yes there is a very big difference, BLI is way better than Bachmann.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Southern said:


> Yes there is a very big difference, BLI is way better than Bachmann.


Thank you sir. I was leaning that way I'm glad that you confirmed it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I wonder why Kato doesn't make any HO steam locomotives?
They make them in N scale don't they? :dunno:
But I completely missed about your wanting steam locomotives.

I like the Kato's I have in N scale. Though they are all diesels.:smokin::thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I guess they Kato did make them at one time?
I see them on e bay, but in N scale.

I guess it is too much work making the steam locomotives? :dunno:


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

I have read good things about the Kato locomotives but I better stick with HO because my eyesight is bad enough, not real sure I can model in HO yet. Want to scratch build a lot of my buildings and houses and such if it's possible. I hope to start with this loco, have read mixed reviews on it but it still seems better than most that are in my price range.

http://factorydirecttrains.com/12-2165usralightmikado2-8-2cn3423wparagon2sounddcdccho.aspx


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

yes its me.

i switched to DCC and i am glad i did before i started my new lay out. when i switched i had a ping pong table set up just to get my DC locos running since they were in a flood.
found about DCC (some thing i knew nothing about since its been over 20 years away from trains). the set up was wired for DC, with insulating yard ETC. when i switched and found out the all that wiring was not needed i wished i had found this sight/info before i built the lay out. a 4x8 will only need to have a few (drops) track wiring to feed power to the trains. one thing, when buying turn outs (switches) make sure you get DCC friendly ones. 

i bought the digitrax zephyr xtra. was told it was the easy est to expand. and the digitrax will run what you want. i bought a second cab (controller/power pack) with two more cabs (since you need a cab for each loco), plugged it in and i run three trains from the unit.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

The more i read the better and easier it sounds but still not sure on wiring turnout and switches or are these the same thing? Forgive my ignorance but what is a cab? Is it the controller you hold in your hand?


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## BK R (Dec 8, 2012)

I've got one of those BLI locos...they are great, they run sweetly and the sound is spot on.


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

dirtpusher said:


> The more i read the better and easier it sounds but still not sure on wiring turnout and switches or are these the same thing? Forgive my ignorance but what is a cab? Is it the controller you hold in your hand?


i answered most of your questions in the post above yours.

if you buy switches (turnouts) that are DCC friendly you do not have to wire them!!!

"cab" what you would call a power pack or controller, turn knob, train goes!


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

BK R said:


> I've got one of those BLI locos...they are great, they run sweetly and the sound is spot on.


BK, I'm excited about getting one, Thanks


Wingnut, I apologize for over looking some of the info in your post. I have read so much the last week or two on this stuff I over looked it. It may be time to get off of this puter for a while and just watch a movie.  Thanks for all the help.


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## Dwight Ennis (Oct 8, 2013)

In the old (pre-DCC) days, a "cab" was a power pack/throttle that could control one train/locomotive. A layout was divided into "blocks" (electrically isolated sections of track) and each "cab" connected to each block via a switch of some type (toggle, rotary, etc.). One person could operate one train via their "cab" and needed to keep track of where their train was, "turning on" the blocks they were approaching (throwing the switch to connect their cab to that block), and "turning off" each block as they left it (throwing the switch to disconnect their cab from that block). This was far more essential if multiple people were running at the same time. As one can imagine, the wiring was fairly extensive and complex.

DCC changed all that, as any number of trains can be run on the same electrical section of track. While the definition of a "cab" remains essentially the same (a throttle/control unit designed to operate one train), each locomotive responds ONLY to commands sent to that locomotive's "address" (usually the number on the loco's cab). A user selects the loco number they wish to control from their cab/control unit, and away they go. Blocks are essentially eliminated. DCC also offers wireless walk-around operation, so each person isn't physically tied to one section of the layout regardless of where their train is.

It's still advisable to divide the layout into blocks, but only for the purpose of locating shorts, and each block need not be wired to every cab, but rather merely wired to the main buss. This greatly simplifies wiring.

DCC can also be used to control turnouts and other accessories by using "stationary decoders" (decoder units mounted under the layout used to control switch machines, structure lights, etc.). Myself, I prefer to still wire switch machines to toggles on a local control panel, but that's just me. I also prefer to wire my turnout frogs, but again, that's just me. Besides, turnout control via DCC doesn't result in "greatly simplified" turnout wiring, but 'somewhat simplified" turnout wiring - at least in my experience. One need not wire the turnout to a toggle switch on a panel, true. But you still need power wires from the switch machine to the DCC stationary decoder, and you still need to wire the frogs (if you choose). You still need power from the track or a separate power supply to the stationary decoder. My feeling is that the advantage of turnout wiring is canceled out by the increased complexity of operating the turnouts, but again, that's just me.

Either way, the wiring of a layout for multi-person control is greatly simplified using DCC. Turnout wiring may be somewhat simplified.

Hope this is clear and helps answer your questions.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Dwight is correct. but cab is sometimes used to mean caboose, or even the place were the engineer and conductor ride in the locomotive.


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## Dwight Ennis (Oct 8, 2013)

I forgot to mention... where wireless isn't used, DCC also offers multiple "receptacles" around the layout. These provide the ability to unplug a cab, move to a new location, and plug the cab back in at that new location. The train maintains the same speed and direction while the cab is unplugged. Again, each person isn't physically tied to a single location, and is instead free to move around the layout with their train.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Must people refer to the Walk-around controller as a throttle. And use "cab" to describe a throttle command station and power supply all in one.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Dwight and Southern, I appreciate the help clearing some of this up very much. A couple questions still remain. I'm go to use the Atlas flex track.

What is considered a block? 

Will each piece of track need to be wired to the cab or does the DCC eliminate that wiring?

Does the throttle need to be plugged in all the time on the NCE Power cab, because I didn't see that when I looked it up?

I'm sure there are more questions that I will have later. Thanks again.


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## Dwight Ennis (Oct 8, 2013)

> What is considered a block?


A block is simply an electrically isolated section of track. Example: You have a circle of track. You place insulated rail joiners at 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock. You now have four "blocks."



> Will each piece of track need to be wired to the cab or does the DCC eliminate that wiring?


Within limits, that's a matter of choice. You can connect the PowerCab to the track at one place only and rely on the rail joiners to make your track connections. Depending upon your track and rail joiners, it's entirely possible it will run just fine... for a while. But rail joiners eventually loosen up leading to dead sections and stalls. Recommend running two #12 or #14 gauge wires the length of the layout to form a "main buss." Solder #22 or #24 rail feeders to each rail of each track section, drill a small hole next to the rail/feeders so thay can pass through the roadbed and benchwork, and solder the other end of each feeder to each side of the main buss. Mind the polarity when doing so, and keep the length of the feeder under a couple of feet.

You may not need to do that right away, but at some point before things get too far along. Definitely before adding scenery or ballast. You'll definitely need at least one set of feeders minimum to each block you may have.



> Does the throttle need to be plugged in all the time on the NCE Power cab, because I didn't see that when I looked it up?


Yes.


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## thysell (Jun 8, 2013)

Hi DirtPusher

I just got back into model railroading after 20 years. I got the NCE power cab pro. My test lay out was a 3 foot section of flex track. I could control two engines on it. I have since expanded my layout and I am using an NCE 5 amp supply with both the power cab and another NCE pro cab. I've got two grandsons and each wants to control his own train. I still use the power cab pro and it's two amp power supply to program the engines off the main line. 

Here is what I expanded too after starting with the Power Cab Pro.

NC-524-214 NCE DCC Accessory - 12' RJ12 Straight Cable

NC-524-207 NCE DCC Accessory- UTP - Cab Bus Panel

NC-524-010 NCE DCC Pro-Cab Digital Handheld "Wired" Throttle

NC-524-027 NCE DCC SB5 "Smart" Booster For Use With Power Cab System To Add Up To 6 Operators At 5 Amp - Comes With Power Supply 

Hope this helps

Thysell


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

Thanks for all the help guys you help me considerably now I understand it better.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I recommend still wiring in blocks. This will help you to isolate any shorts in the system to a specific section of track (rather than having to debug the whole layout.)

One random strand of wire or a tool across the rails a small wiring issue or a mis-wired turnout and you'll have a short and sometimes it's a bugger to figure out where the problem is.


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## Dwight Ennis (Oct 8, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> I recommend still wiring in blocks. This will help you to isolate any shorts in the system to a specific section of track (rather than having to debug the whole layout.)
> 
> One random strand of wire or a tool across the rails a small wiring issue or a mis-wired turnout and you'll have a short and sometimes it's a bugger to figure out where the problem is.


I heartily concur!! Been there, done that.


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## dirtpusher (Nov 25, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> I recommend still wiring in blocks. This will help you to isolate any shorts in the system to a specific section of track (rather than having to debug the whole layout.)
> 
> One random strand of wire or a tool across the rails a small wiring issue or a mis-wired turnout and you'll have a short and sometimes it's a bugger to figure out where the problem is.


 Will do thanks again.


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