# block detection and power cut off.



## wc3026 (Aug 20, 2012)

In the next few months I'm going to be starting to build a new whole house layout. I'm looking for the easiest way to have block detection (maybe with true signaling) but also so if need be the power cut to the tracks automatically by said system as train 1 comes to stop and so on down the line in each block. Dcc is my system.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

not sure if you asking about automatic train control or a simple stopping block that cuts power to the rails.

a stopping block is a short block near a signal at the end of a larger block. A circuit cuts power to the stopping block if a train enters it when a stop signal is active. Power to the rails is restored when the stop signal changes. This may not work with locomotives having keep alives

automatic train control generates DCC signals to control train speed and could slow a train down to a stop if it enters a stopping block when a stop signal is active.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Along with the hardware boards to make this happen you will need software too. JMRI has that feature and Railroad Company offers it in their TrainController package, I think only the Silver and Gold version.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

D&J Railroad said:


> Along with the hardware biards to make thus happen you will need software too.


i'm not sure that's true.

a circuit can control a relay (or some other device) to cut power and latches if the signal is stop AND occupancy is detected. The circuit clears when the signal is no longer stop.

another approach might be to just cut power to the stopping section whenever the signal is stop.

the less simpler approach could also alert something that a train proceeded despite the stop signal


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

gregc said:


> i'm not sure that's true.


of course this can be accomplished by hardware only solution. this will not be to complicated of a circuit to custom design and solder. BUT this will be the worst way to solve this in long term.

as D&J said JMRI is the most optimal solution since OP is also interested in signaling. 
so in the long run instead of making different devices JMRI will be a central point accepting all the inputs (block detection, turnout position, user buttons) and driving all the outputs (signaling, turnouts, perhaps block power) via programmable Automation rules


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

tankist said:


> as D&J said JMRI is the most optimal solution since OP is also interested in signaling.


optimal?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

To provide the most useful information on the 
subject of automatic train control we must know
whether you plan a DC or DCC power system.

The responses are drastically different for each system
as the previous posts indicate.

Don


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## wc3026 (Aug 20, 2012)

So a friend of mine has a system on his n scale massive layout. I know it has photo eyes and what not that does the detection but in order to do that it's about 100 or more for each block. An engine crosses the eye just prior to the signal and if the next block ahead is clear it will turn on that block and turn off the block it was just on. There is about a6-8 inch section between blocks that actually slows the train before the next block so it don't slam the train to a stop or jerk it to a start. Now he is running dc still and like my op I'm dcc.

I want something like that but don't know if i want to spend that much per block. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Digitrax new BXP modules offer circuit breaker, detection and transponding all in one simple unit.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes, Optimal. With all digital layout, detection (probably both block ocupancy and optical spot from what it sounds) and signalling calls for a centralized solution if you ask me. On a complex "whole house" large layout Managing ever growing number of discrete devices with separate logic on each will quickly become a hadache. JMRI will serve as Central point, scaling nicely as new hardware incorporated into the layout 



BXP is indeed interesting module. Almost makes me want to incorporate transponding . While its a very good idea to have short circuit protection for sepatate power districts it's not what the OP is asking for. 

And to OP, in my opinion in your scenario shutting down power is not the way to go. I would set it up in JMRI using the LogiX. a condition can be created that checks occupancy of next block when current block occupancy toggles to on (or any other sensor, current or optical triggers). If true action is triggered - I'm guessing sending Stop command (or perhaps E-Stop since the exact address of engine might not be known) command to the affected block. To be honest the JMRI automated train run is functionality that I didn't explore, but based on documents I'm 99% sure that functionality is there. And if all fails you still can implement power shutoff with relays controlled by JMRI output. 

Good news that you don't have to wait finish building layout to test whether this solution will work . In JMRI you can create virtual sensors and on screen indicators, so nothing really stops you from creating some LogiX rules and trying it out.

Good luck, share your findings


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Viessmann is also an alternative. It is used on many of the largest model railways in Europe.

You can investigate this further on their website or through their 188 page book on Viessmann signalling systems. Product #5299.

Website is available in English.

https://viessmann-modell.com/en


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## wc3026 (Aug 20, 2012)

Well maybe I'm just going to run it old school cause everything I'm seeing is way too expensive and too complicated so back to running then individually. 

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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

wc3026 said:


> everything I'm seeing is way too expensive and too complicated so back to running then individually.


are you a DIYer?

you could build your own detectors and some crude signals to experiment with until you know what you'd like

both of the following work on DCC which has a constant alternating voltage on the track that detect occupancy when a current flows between the rails.

i've bought a handful of pulse transformer and built some inductive open-collector block detectors.

another approach uses bridge rectifier and opto-isolators for block detection (look for the design using the NEC2506).

you can also build some crude signals with small LEDs and balsa which is what i did to test what i'm working on and until I can find Banjo signals.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

You said "whole house layout". This pretty much dictates digital. 

There are several ways to accomplish your requirement , each solution will be of different cost/skill level. Today in the age of sub 5$ programmable controllers great things can be achieved at fraction of budget. The only question how much effort you willing to out in. 

"Nothing that's worthwhile is ever easy." Don't give up


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