# After wheel adjustment car is stiff



## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

So i adjusted all my wheelsets to NMRA width, and now my rolling stock wont roll down a 2% grade. Before adjustment, all 7 of these Kato passenger cars would roll themselves down this grade, one by one or lashed together. Now they wont. Even a nudge to get it moving only lets it roll about a car length down the hill. What gives? I don't have any other rolling stock to try. The wheelsets are just not freerolling anymore, even if i flip the bugger over and spin the wheels by hand. 

https://vimeo.com/200448381

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Squeezed the wheels together again to factory condition and it rolls fine https://vimeo.com/200449256

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

If they run that way I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes things are best left alone!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Quite likely that when you set the width, you may have moved only one side of the wheel set, and that side is rubbing inside the truck frame ..
Check to see that there are equal amounts of axle sticking out of the wheel on each side when you try to set width again .. You may have to adjust each side several times to get it properly centered ..
When you adjust the wheel spacing width,the axle length isn't changed, so it won't be the axle itself binding ..


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

wvgca said:


> Quite likely that when you set the width, you may have moved only one side of the wheel set, and that side is rubbing inside the truck frame ..
> Check to see that there are equal amounts of axle sticking out of the wheel on each side when you try to set width again .. You may have to adjust each side several times to get it properly centered ..
> When you adjust the wheel spacing width,the axle length isn't changed, so it won't be the axle itself binding ..


Thanks for this suggestion. Kato wheelsets are a bit different though. It appears the wheels are firm mounted to a half of an axle. Each half axle slides in the little spacer shaft. Boy was I surprised when I found this out, as the wheel/halfshaft combo went flying across my layout. I guess I shouldn't try to adjust these mini parts while my dexterity is impaired.  

Eastern Plains - Holyoke, Idalia and Towner (EPHIT) Branch build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

irontodd said:


> Thanks for this suggestion. Kato wheelsets are a bit different though. It appears the wheels are firm mounted to a half of an axle. Each half axle slides in the little spacer shaft. Boy was I surprised when I found this out, as the wheel/halfshaft combo went flying across my layout. I guess I shouldn't try to adjust these mini parts while my dexterity is impaired.


aHHH .. I don't have any Kato rolling stock, so I stand corrected ..In this case adjusting the wheels apart would also lengthen the axle itself it seems ..
Other than being a little narrow, do they actually give any problems during operation??


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

When they are out of gauge too narrow at their factory width the axles cause shorts on my turnouts, at proper gage they offer significant rolling resistance as demonstrated above.

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I only see two options ..
1] Space them at proper gauge, and ream out trucks to fit over length axle
2] Replace with other wheel sets, either plastic or metal as you choose

Are these power pickup trucks for lights for the passenger cars??


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

My guess would be that the trucks are also too narrow, and now the axles are binding to the insides of the trucks. Reaming out the bearing surfaces on the trucks will probably help, although you may have to do more work with a file or hobby knife.

The narrow axles may have been done on purpose to assist in cornering, so it may need some work to set it straight.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

wvgca said:


> I only see two options ..
> 1] Space them at proper gauge, and ream out trucks to fit over length axle
> 2] Replace with other wheel sets, either plastic or metal as you choose
> 
> Are these power pickup trucks for lights for the passenger cars??


These are not power pickups for lights yet but I have plans for that. There are copper bridges between the front and rear axles that have an armature that ascends into the passenger compartment.


CTValleyRR said:


> My guess would be that the trucks are also too narrow, and now the axles are binding to the insides of the trucks. Reaming out the bearing surfaces on the trucks will probably help, although you may have to do more work with a file or hobby knife.
> 
> The narrow axles may have been done on purpose to assist in cornering, so it may need some work to set it straight.


Are you suggesting to possibly file down the flat portion inside of the truck that might be causing friction on the outboard (visible) portion of the wheel itself? Not that I'm going to just go buck wild with a file right away I just want to make sure I understand what you're suggesting to look at.

As far as reaming the truck is that to mean widen the hole/dimple that the tip of the axle sits in?

Thank you so much for your help guys I appreciate it.

Eastern Plains - Holyoke, Idalia and Towner (EPHIT) Branch build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

irontodd said:


> Are you suggesting to possibly file down the flat portion inside of the truck that might be causing friction on the outboard (visible) portion of the wheel itself? Not that I'm going to just go buck wild with a file right away I just want to make sure I understand what you're suggesting to look at.
> 
> As far as reaming the truck is that to mean widen the hole/dimple that the tip of the axle sits in?
> 
> Thank you so much for your help guys I appreciate it.


Yep. Exactly right. Caution is definitely indicated.

I would work on reaming the trucks first. Assuming the axles end in standard needle points, there is a tool you can buy called a truck tuner that is designed for that job, and really works wonders. You can get one here: http://www.micromark.com/ho-truck-tuner,8241.html


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Now if only they had one in N scale...  

Eastern Plains - Holyoke, Idalia and Towner (EPHIT) Branch build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Shorts at turnouts*



irontodd said:


> When they are out of gauge too narrow at their factory width the axles cause shorts on my turnouts, at proper gage they offer significant rolling resistance as demonstrated above.
> 
> mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


 irontodd;

Kato is a Japanese company and the NMRA is an American organization. Their standards are slightly different. As I understand it, the reason you adjusted the wheels in the first place was that they shorted at the turnouts. I'm curious about those turnouts. What brand are they? Do they have plastic frogs or metal ones? When the wheels were widened to NMRA width, did the turnout shorts go away?
On one car, try setting the wheels to NMRA standards again. If they bind, and won't spin with your finger, they may be rubbing against the truck frame. I have had similar problems with wheels not spinning freely. Nearly always it's because the truck's side frames are rubbing against the side of the wheels, and acting as "brakes". My solution was to very gently spread out the side frames until the wheels could spin freely. Spreading the frames too forcefully can break them. Be careful.
If you find that spreading the side frames, to accommodate the wider wheel setting, works; you may want to put a single drop of super glue on each "half axle" to keep things in place. I noticed the electrical wiper contacts built into the trucks. Sometimes certain contacts can cause drag, and keep the car from rolling freely. Since these contacts were in place during the Kato free rolling test, I'm discounting them as "brakes",

Hope that helps you. Good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I was wondering if you could upload a picture of a wheel set dis-assembled ??
I think I know what it should look like,but not sure ..
Just want to verify that possible axle length increases when you space the wheels out with the NMRA gauge


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Good point about the japanese standards. Never crossed my mind! Yes i checked the wheel gauge due to the shorting on my Atlas customline turnouts. These have plastic frogs. The short was happening at the narrow end of the closure rails, where theres that little gap between the right diverging rail and the left thru rail (on a left hand turnout) right before the plastic frog begins.

Spreading the wheels made the short cease to occur. So i think we indeed have friction that i introduced by spreading the wheels.

I think im going to get a feeler gauge in there and find the clearance with the narrow axle and then the standard axle. Since were talking only probably .0025 inch difference on each end of the axle maybe a light drag of sandpaper on the inside of the plastic truck or the electric puckup will allow me to remove the wheel to truck friction. 



mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

wvgca said:


> I was wondering if you could upload a picture of a wheel set dis-assembled ??
> I think I know what it should look like,but not sure ..
> Just want to verify that possible axle length increases when you space the wheels out with the NMRA gauge


somehow I didn't see this until now. must have crossed paths we posted close to the same time last weekend. I'll try to remember to take some pix this evening.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

irontodd said:


> somehow I didn't see this until now. must have crossed paths we posted close to the same time last weekend. I'll try to remember to take some pix this evening.




pics may help ..
basically if you measure the 'point to point' length of the axle in factory position, and then again in nmra wheel width position, I ~think~ the nmra position would show a longer axle length, and that's probably why they bind ...
At this point it's just a guess,I have no kato cars to do the check myself..the wheels that I have are solid axle, and when a wheel is moved the axle length doesn't change


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Confirmed the tips do get spread out a little bit
Factory length









Nmra gauged wheels, axle length









Since i have the axle out i took out the bridge. Below is the inside of the axle seats. Probably could use a cleaning but there is less side to side play in a properly gauged wheelset. We are talking .005" here so not much difference. Guesstimate, not actual measurement 










mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

There are probably fixes for the Atlas frog problem. I seem to recall paint or tape being one. Perhaps the rails need to be filed down a little to keep the wheels up on the plastic.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Lost post*



Lemonhawk said:


> There are probably fixes for the Atlas frog problem. I seem to recall paint or tape being one. Perhaps the rails need to be filed down a little to keep the wheels up on the plastic.


 It looks like my reply suggesting paint, or nail polish on the frog tip of the Atlas turnout got lost in cyber space. Weird, but no biggie. Lemonhawk is referring to the same fix for the same problem, above. This shorting at the frog problem has apparently been around for many years. I remember reading it in a Kalmbach book about "X# of tips to improve your railroad", or something like that.

There is another approach which may last longer than a little paint on the tip of the frog. Atlas turnouts do not meet NMRA standards for flangeways, The flangeways at both the frog, and the guard rails are too wide. You might measure them with your NMRA gauge. If you find the guard rails are too wide, a strip of styrene glued inside the guard rail will put them in spec. This, in turn may keep the wheel on the frog side from meandering over where it shorts. I don't know, but it might be worth a try. My old post, "Atlas turnouts" shows this being done in photos. Its a couple pages back in the :General Model Train Discussion" section. You can find it with the search function. Just type in "Atlas turnouts" and click on the "Go" button. Once you find it scroll down to
pages 9 & 10 for the relivant photos and text.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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