# Thinking of a partial???? blow up



## GTW son (12 mo ago)

My current N scale layout is built on an old hardwood door I built probably 20 years ago out of track and switches I cobbled together to make a lay out that was functional, maybe not perfect but functional.
Mistakes were made, corners were cut, things were fit were but far from a perfect fit.
Looking at it today I'm seeing things that go from making me laugh to what the hell was I thinking to darn right embarrassment.
Luckily Its very sparse in the old scenery department so not a big deal there.
Now decision time, do I tear probably three quarters of this layout apart for an improvement/refit or live with it.
Or do I start on a whole new layout which I really don't have room for.
Cost is always an issue depending on what I may need, time is far from an issue as I am retired.
Decisions....Decisions....


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

What track do you currently have? Not sure I'd be in a hurry to salvage something that was already "cobbled together" unless it's in pretty good condition.

I have a lot of older Bachmann EZ-track and Atlas Snap-Track pieces, and have considered building a second, smaller layout using a lot of this extra track I have.

Perhaps you can source some used track to augment your salvaged track from your existing layout.

I'd start over if I was in your shoes, but I really enjoy building more than I enjoy running trains.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Its all Atlas track and cobbled may be the wrong word to use, it was all brand new track and switches.
Just some of the decisions made were questionable at best in getting the most out of this door edge to edge and side to side.
Think your right, I'm leaning to starting all over again.


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

If I was restricted to the same size, I would leave the old one as is, for now. I would then start brand new with a blank slate to design what I want for a new layout. Once the design is complete, I'd tear down the old layout to the bare benchwork and start building the new layout, using what stuff I can from the old one and adding in any new stuff.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

GTW son said:


> Its all Atlas track and cobbled may be the wrong word to use, it was all brand new track and switches.
> Just some of the decisions made were questionable at best in getting the most out of this door edge to edge and side to side.
> Think your right, I'm leaning to starting all over again.


GTW son;

I would start over, (in fact, I have, several times) but that's just me, and not necessarily you.

Atlas sectional "Snap Track" and especially their "Snap Switches" may not be worth salvaging, depending on just how limited your budget is. Most model railroad products, especially locomotives, but including track & "turnouts" (model railroader's preferred term for track switches) have improved a lot in the last 20 years. They have also gotten more expensive though.
So, if you elect to start over, you might look at the price of Peco turnouts, flex track, and current production locomotives.

Twenty year old N-scale locos were pretty bad runners. To move at all, they usually had to be run at much higher speed than switching moves required. Quite often, they needed a hand push to get going.
New locomotives can crawl reliably at very slow speed. That old N-scale equipment probably has the "giant square hook" Rapido couplers. They make switching cars very difficult as they don't uncouple except on a fixed ramp, and then won't stay uncoupled if you want to push the car into a siding. Today's Micro-Trains couplers look like the real thing, and allow uncoupled cars to be pushed without re-coupling.
All this only matters if you are interested in switching. If you just want to run trains around the various loops of a layout, then your old cars will do that fine.

So, what do you want in a new model railroad, that your present layout does not have? 
Its quite possible to make major improvement in realistic looks, and operation, by going into new products, but it will also cost money. Only you can decide if its worth your time and money to upgrade.

Traction Fan

The files below have more information.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Most of my Loco's are newer Atlas or Kato units, rolling stock is newer MTL or Intermountain.
Do have a few old Life Like loco's with Rapido's and 99% of older rolling stock has had MTL couplers/trucks swapped on for Rapido's so I'm not too badly off they're. 1% of stock has a Rapido at one end and MTL at the other for older loco's.
I tried to maximize all the width and length of the door when I built this layout so there are 1/2", 1", 1 1/2" pieces of track utilized.
Know I look at that and wonder... why?
Why was that 1/2" of width so important....or that 1" of length
I do like my layout and maybe I'm just being too critical but something about its symmetry, if that's the right word, got to me the other day.
Still on the fence.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Can we get some photos? Not just to see what sort of restrictions may exist, but maybecwe can share in some of those laughs? A number of new members may benefit from a “don’t do this or that” type thing.

Having said that…

I say do both: keep the old one as is, for the time being at least, and start over too. Unless you’ve got an angled ceiling or wood stove exhaust kind of restriction, I bet it wouldn’t take much to utilize vertical space above the existing layout. Ultimately you could toss the old one and move the new one lower, keep both, or re-track the old one later on down the road. It could be considered two layouts, or one with different divisions of RR that interchange via 0-5-0 or something. The helix is hidden in your elbows.
Point being, same foot print. Add upward instead of outward.

That’s how Seventies Salvation went from single deck plan, to double, then to triple deck. Tripled the layout size without increasing layout dimension by so much as 1mm.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)




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## GTW son (12 mo ago)




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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Above are a few random pics with the offending 1/2" track inserts.
The switches are two lengths but at least they're both on the same side
There are two lengths of flex track used on the siding of different lengths.
The one length of unfinished track I just added thinking of doing a triple loop at the one end.
So am I crazy in the head for changing this or be thankful for what I have and leave it alone.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

View attachment 590373
Nmmmmmmmmgm
View attachment 590374

View attachment 590372


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I see nothing wring with it, aside from my personal preferences. All the spurs being oriented the same would bore me, but my tastes aren’t important.

I don’t see why the shorty sections would be problematic, but I’d in all likelihood solder feeders to rail joiners, and probably solder the joiners to the rail as well.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Perhaps your comment of, it would bore me, are at the heart of my problem....I'm getting bored with it.
Going to spin it so the spurs are at the front of the layout and more accessible then call it a day on this one.
Start collecting for a new layout, something L or U shaped with elevations mixed in.
Thank you for your input.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

GTW son said:


> Above are a few random pics with the offending 1/2" track inserts.
> The switches are two lengths but at least they're both on the same side
> There are two lengths of flex track used on the siding of different lengths.
> The one length of unfinished track I just added thinking of doing a triple loop at the one end.
> So am I crazy in the head for changing this or be thankful for what I have and leave it alone.


GTWson;

Werther you change anything or not depends entirely on what YOU want to accomplish with the prospective change.
Do you want more realistic looks? Or realistic operation? Some scenery? More details? 
A different track plan? More structures? DCC control with sound? Make yourself a list of what you want, if anything. If you're quite happy with your present layout, you may want to just add some scenery & structures to it. 

I see your track is not ballasted. That will make it easier to take up should you decide to do so. The Atlas track nails must have been hard to drive into a solid hardwood door, if that's what it is. That type of door would also make your layout very heavy. I don't know if that's an issue for you though. To pull the track nails up, I have found a pair of miniature diagonal cutting pliers to be very handy. The sharp jaws can usually get under the head of the track nail and the pliers can be gently used to lever the track nail up by using the tops of the rails as a fulcrum. You can also lay a thin metal shim across the tops of the rails to make a stronger fulcrum. If you decide to re-lay your Atlas track on a new layout, I recommend laying cork roadbed under the track. I also suggest you fasten the cork to the layout base, and next the track to the cork roadbed, with dots of latex caulk, instead of nails.

Ultimately Its your decision to make. As I said before, there are many new products available that can make your present, or next, layout look better. You can get better looking track. The Atlas code 80 track you have now is quite OK operationally, but does not look realistic. The ties are too short, and too far apart, and the rails are way too high. Newer Code 55 flex track is available from Atlas, Micro Engineering, and Peco, brands. All are good quality, and all look better with longer ties, spaced correctly, under rails that are closer to scale size. I don't know if this much improved appearance will matter enough to you to be worth the expense involved in replacing your track.
Replacing your "turnouts"(track switches) with the much better quality Peco, or Micro-Engineering, turnouts will be expensive. Probably $18-$30 for each turnout. Atlas turnouts, especially the "Snap Switch" type that you have, are prone to causing derailments*, and don't look anything like as realistic as Micro-Engineering turnouts do. They are also not as reliable as either Peco, or Micro-Engineering, turnouts. are. However, if you're not having derailments on your Atlas turnouts, and you don't care all that much about realistic appearance, is it worth the extra cost to you?

One area where you may not need to change anything, is your rolling stock.
You say your locomotives are Kato, or newer Atlas, (some of which are made by Kato) That sounds very good to me. Kato locomotives are excellent. You also said you have some Micro-Trains cars, and most of your cars have Micro-Trains couplers. Also good. Micro-Trains cars and couplers are the best made.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan

* If you are having derailments on your Atlas turnouts, the files I sent you last time tell how to improve them.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

GTW son said:


> Perhaps your comment of, it would bore me, are at the heart of my problem....I'm getting bored with it.
> Going to spin it so the spurs are at the front of the layout and more accessible then call it a day on this one.
> Start collecting for a new layout, something L or U shaped with elevations mixed in.
> Thank you for your input.



GTWson;

If you have decided to save toward a new layout, with a different shape, the info in the files below may help.

Traction Fan


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## Berrychon (4 mo ago)

Your layout looks great for me.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

One other thing I would add this this door should have been on a cold cellar our builder did not get done during building, the damn things a real nut buster.
I can't move it by myself so movability/portability is a must in the next layout.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

When I lived in Pensacola, Florida, where they don't generally build houses with basements, because of a high water table, I* built a layout on a 36-inch hollow door. I stored it under my queen-sized bed, and it was fairly easy to move. I ran wiring through the hollow door. I ran trains on Kato track, Kato turnouts. I enjoyed this layout immensely. I am considering doing this again, and even building it with two or three doors together to get enough length of track for my LED-lighted passenger trains. Two good things about Tecumseh, MI, low crime and basements.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

So here’s some creative & planning thoughts for both the existing & future layouts:

Alter the spurs so they face different directions. BUT, to save money, forego any run around trackage. This forces you to use two locals, arriving at the switching area from different directions, to switch training point TOs, or to work as a team effort.
Kicking them on angles instead of everything following the standard oval design may help visually/mentally. A simple track rearrangement can rejuvenate things like painting a bedroom can.
None of that would cost a dime.

Future build:
I see 3 concepts of benchwork: permanent, portable, and relocatable. By relocatable I mean the layout is designed to be relocated, but not every month. More like should you buy a different house etc. I have no problem getting a U-Haul for 3x6 scenery pieces, but 2x4 scenic sections would fit in just about any vehicle backseat. This makes the pieces much easier for one person to manage. So I’d definitely suggest sort of planning construction in 2x4 sections, to butt together however you wish. 4 can make a 4x8.
Portable is akin to exhibition layouts IMO.

The way I’m building mine is the benchwork is modular, and I align track ends with scenic “module” ends. Although the scenery will not have a seam unless/until I ever relocate; the track is wired and aligned from the start should that day ever arrive. I’ll just slice the scenery, detach the L girders from the legs, disconnect my EMD style -2 track bus (modular electrics) and it all lifts off.

Track planning, the other kind:
I’m using risers to support sub roadbed. The risers are an L shape wood bracket of 1x4 screwed & glued to make 90 degree pieces. Wood sub roadbed will sit atop these, screwed from below. I like this for a few reasons; it saves on material costs, is lighter to move, and much more versatile in a few ways. Wood only exists where track will be. By using different riser heights, you can build, and even adjust grades at any time before or after scenery is started. And you can use a variety of thicknesses for sub roadbed. As an example, I’ve got most of the curved plywood pieces drawn out on 1/2” thick plywood. But for straighter sections I’ll be using 1x12s left over, cut to width. The difference in thickness doesn’t matter; the risers just get secured 1/4 inch lower than those under the curve. I could even repurpose spare 2x4s if I wanted. I won’t, but I could.
I also align board ends with the potential future separation seams of course.
Another good point of doing “sections” in 4 or 6 ft lengths is pre-cut board lengths, for any straight track areas, require no cutting. Single track fits on a 1x3. Double fits on a 1x6 (in HO). Buy it, screw it to the risers, lay track. It’s THAT simple.

Wiring: I try to keep as much wiring near the fascia as possible, in an EMD -2 modular style. Each section has a terminal strip for disconnection of the bus, which runs a few inches behind the fascia. For feeders that would be 12-24” long, I keep 26awg short around 8” and crimp connectors between them and 14awg feeder extensions which hook to the terminal strips. The bus is also 14awg. This was all connections I’ll ever need to adjust are within 4 inches of the fascia, all are screw connections no soldering, and it’s life in easy street from there on out. No crawling, no reaching, thou shalt not bang thy head, and no soldering on your back.
I do a dedicated lighting bus too for structures etc.
I color code all wiring to match decoder wiring. So TO motors, TT motors etc are gray/orange, track red/black, lighting blue/yellow/white (different voltages).

I keep structures removable on their own “concrete foundation” and hills/mountains are removable too. So if I ever need to relocate the layout, 80% of any cuts in the scenery at the seams will not be visible after things like hills etc are put back in proper place. Seams can also be hidden in plain sight by aligning a road and sidewalk where two sections meet, or a drainage ditch with the “water” piece just sitting on top of the seam.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

pmcgurin said:


> When I lived in Pensacola, Florida, where they don't generally build houses with basements, because of a high water table, I* built a layout on a 36-inch hollow door. I stored it under my queen-sized bed, and it was fairly easy to move. I ran wiring through the hollow door. I ran trains on Kato track, Kato turnouts. I enjoyed this layout immensely. I am considering doing this again, and even building it with two or three doors together to get enough length of track for my LED-lighted passenger trains. Two good things about Tecumseh, MI, low crime and basements.


That’s a nice area there, not bad proximity to A2 but not the daily congestion. I don’t know if it’s still in business but there used to be a huge huge N scale store somewheres south of Jackson. I might ask around at the Lansing show if that store still exists. With my luck I’ll wind up asking the owner himself without knowing it. Lol


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

So I finally got off my butt and with the help of my son lugged it up stairs with minimal damage to home and our backs.
Gotta case of the tear it ups today and added a second inner loop on the left end. Loco is tracking on it fine, haven't tried running any rolling stock over it yet.
Playing with buildings now so I get some scenery started.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

So in my own way here I'm sorta getting to a point where I ca get some scenery happening here.
Added a second inner loop and added curcex to two on the sidings to get away from the squareness of the layout.
Still a work in progress.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)




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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

I like what you are doing.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Thank you.
I dunno, I sit and I look, maybe stare then get up the guts to do something....
Still not completely happy with the inner loop on the right side.
Trying to think of how to improve that otherwise I'm good, still have to run rolling stock around to see it reacts to the changes.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Been running a coal consist thru the new inner loop with no problems, well first time didn't have one switch open....big pile up....other than that she's good.
Decided to leave the on siding on the left side alone, sometimes less is more.
Still working on building placement, probably for another several years.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)




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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

GTW son said:


> [snip]
> Still working on building placement, probably for another several years.


I had to apologize to the people sitting outside my office. I just belly laughed at that! 

All that stuff you have printed yourself looks really good!

That last picture is really sharp with the closeup of your loco


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)




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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Glad I could brighten up your day ☺ 
Coupla more pics
The siding is pretty much staying
The corn bin is a point of contention I know it belongs but where
My Loco maintainence shop has now become a CAT dealership. 
The bigger 3d items I agree can hold they're own but look at the difference between the Cat plastic excavators and the 3d printed dozers.
Did my best painting them but the finish just isn't there.
One good thing about this hobby, accuracy is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Browneye (4 mo ago)

I might suggest to start by painting the open areas with some dirt-colored latex. $10 for a custom-color at HD. Then some kind of back-drop, even if it's just sky. It sucks you in for more involvement and interest, gets creative juices flowing. 

If the layout is running well and you like the track plan, then keep working on it. I started an HO about a month ago and it's progressing nicely - the new track components work just fantastic - Peco track and switches, etc. I'm just wiring up 9 blocks and a mainline now. So if you wanted to start over there's nothing wrong with that either - you might find something a that interests you more. 

Next I would do some diorama type scenic-ing to get your feet wet. Pick one scene and develop it, then move to the next, etc.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Thats my intention at some time but still toying as far as building placement.
Found back drops at local hobby shop only to find out the maker retired.
Roughly 12 years into this now, like a fine whiskey, its mellowing.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

GTW son said:


> Thats my intention at some time but still toying as far as building placement.
> Found back drops at local hobby shop only to find out the maker retired.
> Roughly 12 years into this now, like a fine whiskey, its mellowing.


A simple blue sky & a few clouds is easy to paint yourself. Zero artistic ability needed. Buy some sky blue and some white acrylic house paint, or, if you only need one small backdrop get some medium blue, and some white, acrylic craft paint at Walmart. Craft paints are quite inexpensive. You will need a couple of 2" wide trim brushes from the paint department. Also pick up a couple of foam rubber brushes. Those make cloud painting easy. You can get foam-filled poster board from the arts & crafts section of Walmart next to the craft paints. The poser board can be used for practice or even for the finished backdrop.

Start by painting blue down from the top, using broad horizontal strokes, all the way across the backdrop. Next do the same with white paint, but starting from the bottom. When the two colors meet somewhere in the middle, continue each color part way into the other color's territory. This overlap will blend the white & blue into a lighter blue shade. You can also blend in a little bit of tap water which will thin the paint. What we're doing with this procedure is simulating the look of the real sky, and distance. The sky typically looks deep blue as you look up further. Along the horizon it looks lighter, fading out to almost white. Let your sky dry overnight. The next morning you can add some clouds, using a tiny bit of white paint and more water, on the foam brush. Swirling with the soft foam brush, draw a "hump"-shaped white blob with a flat base at the "bottom of the cloud". Next, decide which way the sun is shining from, the left or the right. Either works, as long as you use the same direction on all the clouds (& anything else you add) The "sunny" side needs to be whiter than the "shady side" or the bottom layer of the cloud. You can put a tiny amount of full-strength white paint on the tip of the brush and then poke gently at the "sunny" parts of the cloud. I usually add a little light gray along the bottom of my clouds, but a bit of water to wash out some of the white over the blue works well too.

Look at the backdrop in the photo below. I hand painted it and its only the second "landscape" I have ever painted. I have no art training either. Ignore the entire foreground, the forest, hills and of course the 3D model steel trestle. Just look at the sky and the clouds. You can do that. Anyone, who's just willing to try, can.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## N/360 (7 mo ago)

traction fan said:


> A simple blue sky & a few clouds is easy to paint yourself. Zero artistic ability needed. Buy some sky blue and some white acrylic house paint, or, if you only need one small backdrop get some medium blue, and some white, acrylic craft paint at Walmart. Craft paints are quite inexpensive. You will need a couple of 2" wide trim brushes from the paint department. Also pick up a couple of foam rubber brushes. Those make cloud painting easy. You can get foam-filled poster board from the arts & crafts section of Walmart next to the craft paints. The poser board can be used for practice or even for the finished backdrop.
> 
> Start by painting blue down from the top, using broad horizontal strokes, all the way across the backdrop. Next do the same with white paint, but starting from the bottom. When the two colors meet somewhere in the middle, continue each color part way into the other color's territory. This overlap will blend the white & blue into a lighter blue shade. You can also blend in a little bit of tap water which will thin the paint. What we're doing with this procedure is simulating the look of the real sky, and distance. The sky typically looks deep blue as you look up further. Along the horizon it looks lighter, fading out to almost white. Let your sky dry overnight. The next morning you can add some clouds, using a tiny bit of white paint and more water, on the foam brush. Swirling with the soft foam brush, draw a "hump"-shaped white blob with a flat base at the "bottom of the cloud". Next, decide which way the sun is shining from, the left or the right. Either works, as long as you use the same direction on all the clouds (& anything else you add) The "sunny" side needs to be whiter than the "shady side" or the bottom layer of the cloud. You can put a tiny amount of full-strength white paint on the tip of the brush and then poke gently at the "sunny" parts of the cloud. I usually add a little light gray along the bottom of my clouds, but a bit of water to wash out some of the white over the blue works well too. Look at the backdrop in the photo below. I hand painted it and its only the second "landscape" I have ever painted. I have no art training either. Ignore the entire foreground, the forest, hills and of course the 3D model steel trestle. Just look at the sky and the clouds. You can do that. Anyone, who's just willing to try, can.
> 
> ...



Sir
Was looking exactly at this post. Thanks much!

And GTW son, great setup youre building. Have fun, keep postin pics!


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