# Solder joints or track joiners



## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Now that I'm nearly ready to lay track, I'm curious if you experts can advise me the best way to join track. I plan to use atlas flex track. Track joiners seem quicker and easier, especially the ones with the wires attached verses soldering wires. Is there a big advantage to soldering the joints?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Just using rail joiners to make an electrical contact is not the best, and the reason why a lot of us solder the joints. If you just don't want to mess with soldering then you can cut the risk by using the joiners with the wires every other joint. I use PC ties and solder the drops the the PC ties then the ties to the rail, that keeps the wires completely hidden, but its a time consuming process. If you don't want to solder then just use lots of those joiners with the drops attached.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

I have no problem with soldering. I'm just trying to do this correctly and asking what's best? I've seen some you tube videos of people using joiners and also soldering the joiners in place, I've also seen people use joiners only every other section, then "butt soldering" other ends together without joiners.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

As always, "best" is an absolute term which can't be applied, because the right solution for you might not be the one that suits someone else.

One of the biggest problems beginners have with flex track is getting abrupt kinks where the segments join. The biggest reason this happens is that they rely on the flimsy metal rail joiners to provide the strength to keep the rails in alignment. As in any system, failure occurs at the weakest point. Soldering segments together prevents this from happening. You can also prevent it by relying on adhesive or nails / pins to keep your joints straight as you lay track -- but that's a very exacting process.

Electrical connectivity is another good reason to solder joints. Sure, you can use power feed joiners at every joint, but do you really want to get into the expense and effort of installing a feeder every 3' or less? A 4x8 layout with soldered joints really only needs one set of feeders.

This isn't a hard and fast rule. On your own layout, you must do what you think is best. I use soldered joints and a feeder every 6-8 feet of track (joints between these sections are not soldered to handle expansion / contraction). Sometimes, in complicated track configurations, I go twice that or more without a feeder. For me, this is the best compromise between reliability, ease of installation, and expense (the old Project Management triangle of Cost/Schedule/Quality again).


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

On my empire, I have every piece of rail hard soldered to the buss. Just part of the things I have learned over the years to never trust a compression connection, including the suitcase connectors or track joiners. Without the chemical flow of solder into the microscopic nooks and crannies of the wire, you asking for problems later on. 
Ya don't mind having to bang the table to get your trains to move when they stall, just us the one rail joiner connector for your electrical connection.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Well what I believe is best for me is to learn from those of you who have done this many times. I'm a beginner and would like to avoid mistakes by asking what the recommended procedures are. 

So I understand there may be several correct ways of going about this. 

You mentioned un soldered joints for allowing expansion. Does this mean you use only slide on joiners in those spots? You're not just gluing track ends up against each other with nothing holding them together are you? 
You bring up another question with the amount of space between feeders. Is 6 to 8 feet between standard distance, or usually closer? 

Sorry if I'm asking alot of questions.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

D&J Railroad said:


> On my empire, I have every piece of rail hard soldered to the buss. Just part of the things I have learned over the years to never trust a compression connection, including the suitcase connectors or track joiners. Without the chemical flow of solder into the microscopic nooks and crannies of the wire, you asking for problems later on.
> Ya don't mind having to bang the table to get your trains to move when they stall, just us the one rail joiner connector for your electrical connection.


OK so by reading your suggestion It sounds like you can't have too many feeders. Every section is what you're doing?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Mattsn said:


> Well what I believe is best for me is to learn from those of you who have done this many times. I'm a beginner and would like to avoid mistakes by asking what the recommended procedures are.
> 
> So I understand there may be several correct ways of going about this.
> 
> ...


The only stupid question is the one you don't ask (unless you're asking the same one repeatedly because you're not listening to or don't like the answer).

The last sentence of my post above is key, so I'll reiterate the concept.

In Project Management (I am a Certified Program Manager), there is the concept of the project triangle. Imagine an equilateral triangle with "lowest cost" at one corner, and at the others "shortest schedule" and "highest quality" at the other two. The three ways you can "optimize" a project. As you shorten the schedule, you add cost and risk lower quality work. As you reduce cost, you expand the schedule and add risk of lower quality. To guarantee the highest quality, you add both cost and schedule to the project.

Every project -- and constructing a model railroad is no different -- has a sweet spot (or sweet area) within which these three conflicting goals are balanced to the needs of the customer or end-user.

Putting feeders at every track joint virtually guarantees good power at every spot on the layout, but takes a long time to do, and adds cost. What level of "risk" can you tolerate? Unsoldered joiners make track go together much faster, but at the risk of unacceptable track quality. How much does the prospect of rework bother you?

That said, paralysis by analysis is the #1 enemy of successful projects. When discussing the failure of a space probe, a NASA project manager once said, "Insisting upon perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." Our STANDARD can be perfect performance, but to expect it every time is unrealistic. The human brain learns best by trail and error, and to expect to never put a foot wrong in a new endeavor like a hobby is also unrealistic.

Don't let the fear that you might make a mistake and have to go back and redo something paralyze you -- let it energize you ("If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!"). Make your best judgment call according to your best information (at hand, don't seek perfect information), and move forward.

Sorry for the lecture...

Feeders every 6-8 feet seemed to me like the "sweet spot". I know people who have 12 drops on a 4x8 layout, and I know people who have 4 on their basement spanning empire (well, one person). It works for me, that's why I use it. I'm willing to bet most folks are in that ballpark, plus or minus a foot or two.

All my joints between pieces have a rail joiner (some soldered, some not). Again, you don't NEED it, but the amount of effort necessary to align joints without is just too much for me. Also, I solder flex track together with the segments straight, then bend them around the curve. This helps minimize the kinks, but you have to pull out a few more ties to do it. Again, it's the right combination of effort and quality assurance for me.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

I don't think that building your layout as though it where a budgeted project would be a good way to go, at least from the soldering joints or drops are concerned.
In the world of projects, the trade off for the solid gold version is a less than solid gold and the balance is in the life cycle logistics. You can build your layout with just a couple of electrical drops at the start, but plan your work so you can add drops later on when you have the time or inclination to do so. We all want to get trains running as soon as possible and we sacrifice the quality of the work in order to do so. Instead of a solid benchwork design, we scrimp on construction materiel and end up with a table that wobbles on it's four, 1"X3" unbraced legs when someone leans against it or the 1/8" plywood surface begins warping, creating plywood waves. Those problems begin to detract from running trains and eventually, the table becomes a catch all and ends up being torn down with lack of interest in something that doesn't work to well.
If planned out properly, you can avoid a lot of the heartburn that others have gone through. If you really need to run some trains right away, build yourself a shelf layout for the interim while you build the layout.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You're reading too much into it.

It's not a question of creating a budgeted project, but of looking at it in the same terms: a series of tradeoffs. That thought process is exactly what you describe, even if you don't realize it. The beginner who doesn't add leg braces in the interest of saving cost is, whether consciously or not, sacrificing quality for lower cost and speed of construction. It doesn't have to be a gruesome, drawn-out analysis, just an awareness of the tradeoffs. When something seems to violate the principle, ask why?

Whether you realize it or not, you do have a budget, it terms of both available time, available funding, and previously purchased supplies.

Anyway, this is becoming something of a thread hijack, so I'll continue the discussion elsewhere if desired.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

CT Valley, I am not certain if in your previous post, your first paragraph you are suggesting that I am not listening. I most certainly am. I also absolutely understand "project management" I tear cars and motorcycles down to thier last bolt and rebuild them. Project management is most certainly important and something I understand fully. Also, I am not fearful to make a mistake nor would I ever become paralyzed if I were to make one. I am simply attempting to avoid as many mistakes as possible By learning from those who have already made them. I know i will make mistakes in the long run. However making un necessary mistakes because I did not ask someone who already knows, seems to be a waste of time as well. 

I asked one question and have received multiple answers from multiple members and I appreciate each one. I plan to form my best plan from the information I'm given .


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

D&J Railroad said:


> I don't think that building your layout as though it where a budgeted project would be a good way to go, at least from the soldering joints or drops are concerned.
> In the world of projects, the trade off for the solid gold version is a less than solid gold and the balance is in the life cycle logistics. You can build your layout with just a couple of electrical drops at the start, but plan your work so you can add drops later on when you have the time or inclination to do so. We all want to get trains running as soon as possible and we sacrifice the quality of the work in order to do so. Instead of a solid benchwork design, we scrimp on construction materiel and end up with a table that wobbles on it's four, 1"X3" unbraced legs when someone leans against it or the 1/8" plywood surface begins warping, creating plywood waves. Those problems begin to detract from running trains and eventually, the table becomes a catch all and ends up being torn down with lack of interest in something that doesn't work to well.
> If planned out properly, you can avoid a lot of the heartburn that others have gone through. If you really need to run some trains right away, build yourself a shelf layout for the interim while you build the layout.



I absolutely agree with this. I have no budget and I am in no hurry at all. In fact this is meant as a long term project. 

I think you suggestion of making a couple of electrical drops at first but making provisions to add more later hits the nail On the head, and is basically what I was figuring on doing based off of the knowledge from the multiple ideas suggested. 

Thanks


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Mattsn said:


> Well what I believe is best for me is to learn from those of you who have done this many times. I'm a beginner and would like to avoid mistakes by asking what the recommended procedures are.
> 
> So I understand there may be several correct ways of going about this.
> 
> ...


I will give you my best shot at advice, now on my fourth build, but only the third using flex track (the first was with Bachmann's EZ-Track, but still with the metal joiners they use).

I have read forum members on several forums discuss this topic ad nauseum. All the obviously experienced guys said to ensure every contiguous length of rail gets its own power, even if shared with another length of track. IOW, direct contact between the power bus and that length of rail. Further, they ALL cautioned about relying on the integrity of the merely slid joiner to maintain electrical connectivity over time. For one thing, there is the problem with dissimilar metals conducting electricity...modern building codes forbid aluminium and copper to be used in the same system for a reason. There is dirt, paints, and glues that get into that joint between the rail surface and the inner metal surface of the joiners, corrupting the mechanical purchase that must also double as an electrical connection.

So here is what I advise: use the joiners, and solder a feeder wire to every second joiner. Schematically, it looks like this:

=====X==============O===============X=============O

The X is a joiner into which a flattened 20-22 gauge bared copper wire is inserted, after which the entire joint is filled with a good hot solder. The O's are merely joined with the joiner, but left to slide to accommodate the changes that take place with varying levels of humidity and temperature in your train room. [Humidity is going to account for about 85% of any problems with your wooden structure and under-frame changing dimensions, thus causing buckling in your tracks if you fail to leave some tiny gaps or non-soldered joiners in place here and there.]

This arrangement, as should be rather obvious, ensures a highly reliable power transmission two ways from the soldered joint, which is what you want. You don't care about the integrity of the power transfer across the non-soldered joiners because the soldered joint after that is looking after power down the next length of rail.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Mattsn said:


> CT Valley, I am not certain if in your previous post, your first paragraph you are suggesting that I am not listening. I most certainly am. I also absolutely understand "project management" I tear cars and motorcycles down to thier last bolt and rebuild them. Project management is most certainly important and something I understand fully. Also, I am not fearful to make a mistake nor would I ever become paralyzed if I were to make one. I am simply attempting to avoid as many mistakes as possible By learning from those who have already made them. I know i will make mistakes in the long run. However making un necessary mistakes because I did not ask someone who already knows, seems to be a waste of time as well.
> 
> I asked one question and have received multiple answers from multiple members and I appreciate each one. I plan to form my best plan from the information I'm given .


Quite the contrary. I was attempting to reassure you that you were doing fine asking your questions, and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.

It did seem to me that you were a concerned that there was one right answer and you weren't going to proceed until you found it. Believe me, I've seen that way too many times. I'm glad that's not true in your case. I hope no permanent harm was done by me jumping to conclusions!


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Quite the contrary. I was attempting to reassure you that you were doing fine asking your questions, and I'm sorry I wasn't clearer.
> 
> It did seem to me that you were a concerned that there was one right answer and you weren't going to proceed until you found it. Believe me, I've seen that way too many times. I'm glad that's not true in your case. I hope no permanent harm was done by me jumping to conclusions!



No harm done at all.


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## bristolman2012 (Mar 4, 2012)

Mattsn said:


> Now that I'm nearly ready to lay track, I'm curious if you experts can advise me the best way to join track. I plan to use atlas flex track. Track joiners seem quicker and easier, especially the ones with the wires attached verses soldering wires. Is there a big advantage to soldering the joints?


just my two cents . I'm a beginner and after all the reading and still haven't done enough of that , I'm not soldering my first layout . I'm going to do a lot of experimenting and eventually hope to come across a layout I have to do . with me its become a budget thing where you would love to have a layout with a dozen turnouts but the cost of that dozen ? 
mike


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

bristolman2012 said:


> just my two cents . I'm a beginner and after all the reading and still haven't done enough of that , I'm not soldering my first layout . I'm going to do a lot of experimenting and eventually hope to come across a layout I have to do . with me its become a budget thing where you would love to have a layout with a dozen turnouts but the cost of that dozen ?
> mike


Man I hear ya. Although I have no budget it looks like it will cost more than I expected. I found an old turnout still in its package, left over from when I was a kid. (I'm 40 now) the price on that turnout was just more than a dollar I don t remember exactly. I could post a pic. But things have seriously inflated


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

This thread is what I am looking for, regarding soldering the flex-tracks together. I do not like the idea of using the joiners to be used to hold them together because it would make it harder to put the ties under these ends. It would look funny and unrealistic in my opinion.

Lesson learned: do not solder both sides at same place where the end of the tracks meet. They will not flex very well, just bent out of the place! "#$#%^@"


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Some have experienced expansion and contraction
problems when making a solid connection with
flex track. 

The correct way to prepare your track for joiners is to
under cut the rail so that the ties are loose from it but
still attached to the sprue. 

When cutting flex track you usually end
up with a pile of extra ties. Cut or file the plates and
spikes from them and simply slip them under the rails
where you have missing ties. A tiny dab of glue will
hold them in place.

Don


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

My layout is all 027 tubular rail. This may not suit your particular need, Mattsn, but may help others.
I found sometimes, the steel rail did not hold solder well.

What I did is take small pieces of braided copper wire.
I flux it, the lay it between the joints.
I then proceed to solder the connection.

It seems to stick better to the steel that just bare solder.
And you also have an expandable solid electrical connection between the rails.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I used joiners to alIgn the track, and then soldered them to make sure they stay that way ... and feeders roughly in the middle of each three foot piece of flex ...

many differring views on this, but that's what I did on mine


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

For the flex tracks, does it matter if the track is to be flexed one way or the other way, inward or outward?

What I mean is that there are ties on one side that are not connected between every two ties, is that side to be compressed together as flexed inward or to be spreaded apart as being flexed outward. Just wondering...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

when i did mine, it seemed initially that it was easier to have the flex on the 'squeezed' side, easier to cut ... but eventually decided to run the loose side to the outside of the radius.. my reason was that while the fixed side had even spacing, i wanted fewer ties on the outside of the curve as it was more appropriate for my old time era layout ...
no real big reason other than final appearance


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

I think that the smaller radii, the flex track is to be flexed outward, while boarder radii, the flex track is to be flexed inward, to make them look more even.

I am sure that there is no golden rule for this.


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