# What are HO toy trains?



## time warp

Generally speaking there are really 2 kinds of HO railroaders, or so it seems. There are many who truly are HO SCALE modelers; high levels of detail, advanced performance, close to scale size rail and so forth. Work worthy of admiration to be sure. Things like wide curves, modeling prototype equipment and locations and even operations are very impressive.
The other end of the spectrum would be the HO toy train modelers; code 100 track, typically tight curves, crude detail and bright paint, truck mounted couplers, "train set" type equipment. doesn't mean they don't run well, or that there isn't skill and effort put forth in track work and operating them.
A person could easily say that an Athearn or Atlas locomotive, for example, would be associated with HO scale where a Tyco or Model Power locomotive might be considered more a toy. 
Question is, what do you call them? I was thinking maybe some input here would help.
I am in the latter group, by choice. I am capable of highly detailed HO modeling and have done much of it over the years, but I find myself enjoying the memories of my youth in my railroading now. I like my toy trains. For me it's not about realism or even accurate scale. Its about the 12 year old me unwrapping AHM trains at Christmas that came from the local Woolworth, Birthdays receiving structure kits and things shared with my family indelibly etched in my happiest memories.
I call them HO HI- Rail, which may be somewhat incorrect. I've heard them labled as "Nickel plate" also. Doesn't seem to fit.
I can see by the threads I've read through that there are a lot of us from both ends of the spectrum. Doesn't matter whether you got started with a PFM brass Russian decapod or a Lionel HO Burlington 181, or anything in between, good to know you!


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## FOURTEEN

I like to get the cheaper ones right now, I can 4 for the price of one of the new RTR, and upgrade them and still be cheaper. The $30-40 are nice granted, but I find it hard one afford one and also cant bring myself to modify or weather one of them.


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## gregc

time warp said:


> View attachment 180610
> Generally speaking there are really 2 kinds of HO railroaders, or so it seems.


there are those who are more interested with "modeling" the operation of a railroad rather than its appearance. I think it's Boomer Pete in "How to Run a Model Railroad" that talks about modelers having a layout setup on the floor or short bench-work which they step over to operate their trains. They're not interested it appearance.

i believe there are many different type of "model railroaders".


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## CTValleyRR

This is a dangerous precedent. I left a previous forum because too many threads degenerated into "You're not a model railroader if... (or unless)".

This is a tremendous hobby, and there is room for all tastes and styles under the broad umbrella of "model railroading". Greater detail or operational fidelity does not make one more or less of a model railroader.

My uncle had an enormous HO scale layout, with absolutely no scenery, no unified theme (European and US locos and rolling stock side by side, even intermingled) and no pretention to realistic operations, just a basement sized series of interconnected loops. Yet I wouldn't call that a toy, by any means.

A train set -- no matter how detailed -- which is intended as a child's plaything would be a toy. A set, or layout, no matter how detailed or prototypically accurate, which is intended as an entertaining diversion for someone who is mature enough to respect it, preserve it, and expand it, is a model railroad, no matter how toy like the appearance.

Just my $0.05...


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## NAJ

My three 6 year old Grandson's each have a small layout with homemade items and store bought items on the layout, some are to scale, others are not and they do not care, it is all about having fun with them.

It was because of them and their interest in trains that got me interested and back into HO trains again after 40 years.
The layout I have built has no rhyme or reason to it, is not prototypical of anything in particular, has rolling stock that is diversified and in real life would probably not be seen together, some pieces may not be exactly to scale such as the telephone lines but...
It is enjoyable to me and makes me happy so if it is classified as a toy then who really cares...Not Me.


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## MacDaddy55

*Gotta start somewhere!!*

Well...if it wasn't for the Toy HO...we would never get to the Real HO. Whether your a just run em for fun or real scale modeler its a great hobby that isn't just an exclusive club. Go to a Train show and see where it starts with kids and families and FUN!!:thumbsup Have a Blast from the Past!!


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## raleets

My layout was started over five years ago as a means to entertain myself during the long, cold Michigan winters. 
There was no initial plan whatsoever and just took on a life of it's own as it grew from the original 4'X8' into the present 10'X10' size.
For the most part, it's a journey thru my lifetime with the downtown main drag modeled after the small town where I grew up in the 1950's.....with residential homes to fit that same era....
with a lake and a river where I used to do a lot of fishing back in the day.....with a small oil depot like the one where I worked as a teenager.....with a small farm meadow like the one my grandparents had.....with a busy passenger depot like the one in my hometown.....with a couple of campgrounds like the ones we used to visit years ago.....with a small Army base in honor of my Grandson, a West Point graduate and now a 1Lt in the USArmy.....with several flashing billboards like the ones that dotted the area where I grew up....
You get the picture. It's become a fun-filled hobby full of nostalgia for yours truly and I'm loving every minute I can spend messing around with my model railroad.  
Bob


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## Homeless by Choice

Why label the train layout types? What starts out simple, many times gets expanded as interests develop in one area or another and time and money becomes available. Pretty soon a theme develops: switching and operation, prototypical operation/location, or a combination of both as time permits. A mix-match of motive power and cars is still a railroad in the owners mind. As long as He or She is the proud Railroad Executive, it is a wonderful model railroad for all to enjoy.

LeRoy


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## TheDragonslayer

I wanted a train set when I was a kid, I am 56, my mom said no, that I had too many hobbies as it was. This March 26th I got a train set with over 30 feet of track, switches, turnout, re railer, a locomotive, a diesel engine, 8 cars, a caboose and power supply, for $3.95 from a local thrift store, everything works, the engines only needed a light cleaning and took off as if they were running yesterday. The release dates for the loco and diesel are 1967 and 1971, the set is a Tyco from the red box era with Mantua motors, finer detail and metal accents instead of plastic. This started out as a toy, to fulfill that inner childs want for a train set, but it has turned into a model railroad world, or will be. I have already built a trestle, made hand made trees, built two different table layouts that will merge and have a design worthy of a model railroad. About a month ago I purchased a box full of HO cars and four engines, one engine is an Athern, but all four engines need major work, one is really a wreck, but I got nine cars completely functional. Toy or Model railroad, matters not, I am having fun, meeting like minded people and broadening my horizons. Three months ago, if someone told me there were bents in a trestle, my response would have been , now I know how one is built.


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## JNXT 7707

CTValleyRR said:


> This is a dangerous precedent. I left a previous forum because too many threads degenerated into "You're not a model railroader if... (or unless)".
> 
> This is a tremendous hobby, and there is room for all tastes and styles under the broad umbrella of "model railroading". Greater detail or operational fidelity does not make one more or less of a model railroader.
> 
> My uncle had an enormous HO scale layout, with absolutely no scenery, no unified theme (European and US locos and rolling stock side by side, even intermingled) and no pretention to realistic operations, just a basement sized series of interconnected loops. Yet I wouldn't call that a toy, by any means.
> 
> A train set -- no matter how detailed -- which is intended as a child's plaything would be a toy. A set, or layout, no matter how detailed or prototypically accurate, which is intended as an entertaining diversion for someone who is mature enough to respect it, preserve it, and expand it, is a model railroad, no matter how toy like the appearance.
> 
> Just my $0.05...


Well said, and yes it is a dangerous precedent in my opinion. One person's toy is another's scale model. And vice versa. The last time I got into a thread here concerning who or what constituted who a "real modeler" was I exited stage left - life is too short, you know? Just makes my blood boil.


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## MtRR75

From dictionary.com...

Toy = a representation, generally in miniature, to show the construction or appearance of something.

Model = an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with.

So it seems to me that every "model railroad train" is a "toy train" that we play with. The only difference is how prototypical our toy trains are. And within all of our layouts, there is a continuum from totally non-prototypical to as prototypical as possible. (No model train is ever a 100% prototypically correct.) And all that variety is one of the things that makes model railroading fascinating.

... my $0.02.


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## alaska railroad

Congratulations to you all. You all put smiles on my face, for the reason you model. Expensive, or cheap locos.scenery, or no scenery, as long as we are having fun, and running locos on our track, than I'd say we are modelers. 
Happy railing to us all. 🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃


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## mesenteria

MtRR75 said:


> From dictionary.com...
> 
> Toy = a representation, generally in miniature, to show the construction or appearance of something.
> 
> Model = an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with.
> 
> So it seems to me that every "model railroad train" is a "toy train" that we play with. The only difference is how prototypical our toy trains are. And within all of our layouts, there is a continuum from totally non-prototypical to as prototypical as possible. (No model train is ever a 100% prototypically correct.) And all that variety is one of the things that makes model railroading fascinating.
> 
> ... my $0.02.


Well said. I happen to believe what you posted, and was about to say essentially the same until I saw your post. They're ALL toys....period. Unless they are really hauling a commodity and sending real invoices, and paying taxes and wages, they're really all just toys.

What draws the toys into a more narrow range of appreciation of the prototype they represent is how faithfully the modeler/toy player does just that...faithfully represent a real place and show realistic operations taking place with a reasonable level of detectable details. What reasonable means, as a defined term, is always open to argument, sometimes ugly argument.

Fortunately, the playbook for the hobby doesn't require every one of us to participate in the modeling component to the same extent. It leaves room for people with all skill levels and interests to have fun as they define having fun. I hope it never changes.


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## davidone

In the end all trains are toys. Some just look more real then others.

I like trains that look more like the real thing? My layout is set up to run trains thru nice scenery. I don't like operations but running a train and watching is what makes me happy.

If you like running trains that have fantasy schemes are oversize or whatever please keep doing it. I fully support the way you like trains.


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## time warp

I'm impressed with the responses here! I thought maybe I was odd man out, but you've all proved me wrong. Thanks! I Didn't intend any negativity though. Definitely proud to be part of this group.


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## D&J Railroad

Would you give a 4 year old child a Broadway Limited J9000 to play with in the sand box?
Would you hold a open house for the local NMRA meet to see a loop of snap track on your basement floor next to the pile of laundry with a Tyco loco running at 150 scale mph pulling 4 colorful Micky Mouse and Donald Duck freight cars?
Yeah, there is a difference between toys and models and it's not just the price. There are two perspectives here. 1) the owner and 2) the general model railroader community. While the owner may see their loop of Disney character trains as a depiction of a class A railroad while it is only he who is running it, he should realize it would really piss someone off to drive half way across a state and miss other true model railroads on the open house circuit to see someone's toy that was billed as a must see.


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## Genetk44

Does it all really matter? We all have our different likes and desires within the hobby and one mans idea of " model" or "prototypical" will be another mans " toy". I happen to like weathered rollingstock with "scale" Kadee couplers, that brings a model alive to me and makes it believable while a die-hard rivet-counter would be appalled because the engine louvres were vertical instead of horizontal. Chip built a huge layout without any scenery or realistic trackplan, bought masses of rollingstock and higher-end locos, cut the steps off his bigger locos so they could get around his curves and he made no bones about the fact that he was playing with toy-trains. Yet in a sense we were and are both model-railroaders just with differing interests in the hobby.


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## time warp

I wrote about" work worthy of admiration" in my first post.So you are correct in that sense. However, that's not really the point here. I was writing about MY personal experience over the years, not speaking for others . It has changed my point of view regarding my own modeling, thanks to the opinions in this thread. I'd love to visit your layout sometime. Never had a " showpiece" myself, but I've certainly helped build them.


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## Shdwdrgn

Personally I would say it all comes down to intent...

A 'toy' is something you take out of the box, set up and play with for a bit, then put it away again, and that's it.

A 'model' is something where you have put your own creative thought into it. This could be as simple as buying specific locos and cars to fit a theme, or as complex as setting up a permanent layout or adding custom details. You're no longer content with the items that came with the store purchase and you've done something to personalize it.

Frankly I would consider anyone on the forum to be a serious modeler, regardless of the size of their layout or whether or not it is permanent, simply because you have taken enough interest in model trains to reach out and try to learn more about some aspect of the hobby. Even if you're still content to watch your train go around in circles, your curiosity has brought you here to learn what the boxcar data means, or how the track signals work, or even just ideas on stringing wires on telephone poles -- you are here to learn something, and you are no long just 'playing with toys'.


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## time warp

*Sincere apologies*









JNXT 7707 said:


> Well said, and yes it is a dangerous precedent in my opinion. One person's toy is another's scale model. And vice versa. The last time I got into a thread here concerning who or what constituted who a "real modeler" was I exited stage left - life is too short, you know? Just makes my blood boil.


I feel like I need to issue an apology to some of you regarding my initial post. My intent was and is not to label or judge anyone's preference or talent or promote division. I was merely trying to open a discussion on whether some preferred one kind of model trains or another, period.
I posted the pictures of the sharks to help make the point, they're mine, not someone else's.(The Midnight specials are an interesting story in themselves)
I went back and re read my comments several times , and I thought it was clear, but some of you took it a little differently than was intended. That is my fault, I believe.
I'm very sincere about being a help instead of a hindrance. To paraphrase the bible: He that gathereth not, scattereth.
For credibility I'm posting this grainy photo of my model railroading efforts, circa 1984. the PA and its train were hand striped by me, and ran on Chet Carters layout for the NMRA layout tour that same year. In the background you can see a kitbashed FM Erie built on the point of that way long freight drag.
Fast forward to today; grass mat on 4 x8, still having a great time. Thanks to all of you.[/ATTACH]


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## 3.8TransAM

Here's my take.

In the Transformers forum they are action figures/robots, however you want to call it. At the end of the day most of the people there are grown *** adults playing with toys. Some are incredibly detailed and even to scale now as well

In the "model train" world they are called model trains/scale train, whatever you wish to call it. At the end of the day most of the people here are more than grown adults playing with toys. Some are incredibly detailed and even to scale now as well

Oh wait I typed the same thing twice.....:appl:


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## JNXT 7707

Timewarp - no apology necessary! I have become hyper-sensitive about the question and as it turned out the thread was actually very enjoyable to read hwell:
Enjoyed your blast from the past photos too! 
Carry on and keep playing/modeling :laugh::smilie_daumenpos:


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## Ace

This is an interesting discussion.

When I started out to build my own HO railroad as a teenager, I recognized Athearn and MDC cars and locos as a "minimum standard" to maintain on my layout. I wanted RP25 wheels, Kadee couplers, no truck-mounted couplers.

Over the last 10 or 15 years I've been given miscellaneous "train set" items (often needing repair) which don't meet my original standards. But I'm not throwing them out. Instead I've built some "side show" small layouts to use my "substandard" equipment, which still rate as fun items. I have modified/upgraded some "train set" items to use on my main HO layout, if they have features I like such as different road names and reasonable detail.

I've also branched out into "semi-scale" O-gauge trains and tinplate. They are all fun in different ways. I get tired of rivet-counter snobs who have to have strict proto-typical expensive super-detailed everything. For me, model trains and toy trains are a fun hobby, not a contest or obligation to meet someone else's standards of "correct" modelling.

I like to push the limits of minimum radius standards with my "side-show" layouts, to make conveniently portable small layouts. This one is an HO figure-8 with 8" minimum curves on a 22" x 44" platform. A Kato NW2 handles the tight curves just fine (different loco in photo, my 2-dollar 4-wheel loco balks on the crossing). Cars up to 4" long look OK on curves this sharp. I've populated my small layouts with various inexpensive second-hand structures to expediently achieve "good enough" scenery.









I'm acquiring a definite surplus of HO items. I have an idea to build a long narrow freight yard on a shelf for static display of batches of cars. Or I might make it an operable addition to my main layout.


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## time warp

JNXT 7707 said:


> Timewarp - no apology necessary! I have become hyper-sensitive about the question and as it turned out the thread was actually very enjoyable to read hwell:
> Enjoyed your blast from the past photos too!
> Carry on and keep playing/modeling :laugh::smilie_daumenpos:


Thanks, you made my day. I had to toss in the current photo of the old Erie built. I built it 33 years ago from pieces of 3 or 4 AHM C- liner shells and an Athearn PA chassis. I sold it 25 years ago and managed to get it back last year in rough shape. Needs side ladders put back on and some other work, but it is running again now.


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## NAJ

I collect Atlas/Marvel Silver Age Comic Books and Memorabilia including Action Figures, some are loose, some are MIP.
When one of my 6 year old Grandson's gets new Action Figures or the like I kid him and say, "Don't open that, it's a collectible".
His response is, "It's Not a collectible, it's a Toy and I am going to open it and play with it".

By that definition Model Trains that run are "toy's"


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## JNXT 7707

time warp said:


> Thanks, you made my day. I had to toss in the current photo of the old Erie built. I built it 33 years ago from pieces of 3 or 4 AHM C- liner shells and an Athearn PA chassis. I sold it 25 years ago and managed to get it back last year in rough shape. Needs side ladders put back on and some other work, but it is running again now.


That thing is a work of art! Was looking at it and though I had missed something from Athearn history. Nice that you got it back!


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## RonthePirate

I'm a O scale guy, but my interest was peaked at this thread.

I go eclectic. Down-to-every-detail here, but oh so tinplate O scale there.
And you know what? It looks good together! (At least to me)
I know there's some hard-core detail modelers out there. And I applaud you for keeping such great standards.
But time is short here on Earth. why not just do what YOU think looks good.
And yes, toy scale is a lot less expensive that total detail.
I live on our retirement checks. Easier on the wallet to get the "toy" version.


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## CTValleyRR

time warp said:


> I'm impressed with the responses here! I thought maybe I was odd man out, but you've all proved me wrong. Thanks! I Didn't intend any negativity though. Definitely proud to be part of this group.


I didn't intend to imply you were being negative, but there are definitely some who would take you to task over it. Like Jerry, I'm probably overly sensitive to implications that one person's layout is less of a "model railroad" than another's.

Thanks to the folks who commented on having fun. The second part of my first post was an attempt to qualify what we're doing with our hobby -- because it IS playing. To see how I feel about that, check out my signature! Maybe it's the transient nature of the plaything that makes it a toy rather than a model.


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## CTValleyRR

D&J Railroad said:


> Would you give a 4 year old child a Broadway Limited J9000 to play with in the sand box?
> Would you hold a open house for the local NMRA meet to see a loop of snap track on your basement floor next to the pile of laundry with a Tyco loco running at 150 scale mph pulling 4 colorful Micky Mouse and Donald Duck freight cars?
> Yeah, there is a difference between toys and models and it's not just the price. There are two perspectives here. 1) the owner and 2) the general model railroader community. While the owner may see their loop of Disney character trains as a depiction of a class A railroad while it is only he who is running it, he should realize it would really piss someone off to drive half way across a state and miss other true model railroads on the open house circuit to see someone's toy that was billed as a must see.


Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but I think this misses the point. Just because one's "model" railroad is not sufficiently complex or detailed that it's worth a convention tourist stop does not make that person's railroad a toy rather than a hobby. 

I don't think there are very many hobbyists who delude themselves into thinking that their loop of track with Disney character trains is a "must see" (and certainly, it's hard to imagine any convention official including it on any list). Take the more complicated example of my uncle's layout -- no scenery, no theme, but extraordinarily complex, signals, over / under routes, block control, remotely wired and operated turnouts. Would THAT be worth driving across the state to see? I certainly thought it was impressive as heck. Even today (though my memory probably exaggerates) I remember it as an awesome layout. HE was very proud of it.

Or, take our local artist Steve Cryan, who maintains two layouts at a local pizza joint (in an old NH RR station). His track plans are very simplistic (being designed for trains to run loops unattended), but his structure and detail work is exquisite and very whimsical, but nothing like realistic (Godzilla appears on one layout). Is THAT worth a drive to see? Most people I know think so.


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## JNXT 7707

D&J Railroad said:


> Would you give a 4 year old child a Broadway Limited J9000 to play with in the sand box?
> Would you hold a open house for the local NMRA meet to see a loop of snap track on your basement floor next to the pile of laundry with a Tyco loco running at 150 scale mph pulling 4 colorful Micky Mouse and Donald Duck freight cars?
> Yeah, there is a difference between toys and models and it's not just the price. There are two perspectives here. 1) the owner and 2) the general model railroader community. While the owner may see their loop of Disney character trains as a depiction of a class A railroad while it is only he who is running it, he should realize it would really piss someone off to drive half way across a state and miss other true model railroads on the open house circuit to see someone's toy that was billed as a must see.


You're illustrating my first reaction, D&J. 
Here we go again with the tiresome term "true model railroads" and the always favorite reference to Tyco. 

In the first place I wouldn't give any electric powered train to a kid in a sandbox. Would you?

Some of us modelers don't have the discretionary $$$ to throw at BLI. But we do have the skills and ingenuity to take a Tyco and have something that looks pretty close. 

And some us like boxcars with cartoon characters on them. That would piss you off? Umm...do you have any fun at all with model railroading?

:dunno:


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## Shdwdrgn

D&J Railroad said:


> ...it would really piss someone off to drive half way across a state and miss other true model railroads on the open house circuit to see someone's toy that was billed as a must see.


I have seen some rather impressive LEGO trains at the train shows I've gone to, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find out that some people have driven half way across the state to see the show. While most people will always consider LEGOs nothing more than a toy, what I have seen at these shows is an incredible work of art, and yes, I would also bill it as a must-see item. It doesn't matter what you are working with, when you put that much effort into something, it is no longer just a toy.


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## time warp

After the last few posts I'm convinced that most are getting the point of this discussion. I don't understand the anger, to me this is like sitting around at the coffee shop sharing stories. If you don't like the topic or comments, don't read it. No one is forcing anyone else to participate here. I would love to be able to meet each one of you and look at your work. And no, I don't care if your just a "buyer" or a " builder" or something in between. I personally can't enjoy my hobby any other way than I do now, can't see well, losing dexterity, and away from home with my work . I stay in hotels more than 200 nights a year. That's where I build, paint- whatever. The small amount of time I do have is shared at home with little guy. So no, No ballasting or plaster work, were running trains. Together. I've got TYCO,AHM, Athearn, model power, Charmerz, IHC, Walthers, life like, Roco, and Revell. We run em, don't care who makes em!


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## mesenteria

I can't imagine anyone posting here, or who calls themselves a model railroader, is in it for their health. In fact, I suggest it would be unhealthy to even dabble in a pursuit which holds, or which promises, no prospect of excitement, pleasure, or personal development. As I have stated often over the years to this question, there is room on this looong bench for many backsides. They don't all have to wear the same uniform, clothing, style, or accessories to sit on it either.


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## 3.8TransAM

We had this discussion today, when I went to the club minus the 6yr old side kick. 

Damn things are toys, some are detailed to an insane level, but they are toys. Go play, have fun.

I wouldn't let the 6 or 3 yr old play with their Trackmaster Thomas in the sandbox either. They learn to take care of their toys or they get none.

Last night at the club with the 6 yr old I set up the Genesis Northen FEF-3. He put both scale trains box cars on the track along with the Walthers mainline passenger cars 6 in total. then he turned on the phone and hooked to the router and acquired the engine pretty much by himself.

I'm 39, not old fart status yet and hope never to be, but some people go too far. Run, have fun, break it, fix it, rinse and repeat. I don't build my cars to stare at them either, I'm going to run it so I might as well not hide behind "it's not a toy" or "its worth too much".

Most of our fleet is Branchline, Proto stuff, Athearn(RTR and Genesis) along with some Walthers that I've hunted on ebay for deals or waited for sales online and at the local hobby shops. I make pretty good money but I still can't stomach $70 a pop passenger cars and a $200 locomotives every time I pick one up.......

My only splurge too date is I did make a deposit on a Scale Trains Big Blow I could not pass that one up. It will be run and odds are great at some point he will be the one putting it on the tracks So I expect some level of knocked off detail parts on everything eventually at some point and some I've already done myself.

Ya get pissed and you get over it. Its a hobby, its supposed to be fun, so walk away and come back later.

Lego trains are awesome, we have built layouts with them stretching from room to room along with over and under bridges to boot. Train Tech form on Eurobricks has some amazing builders as well.


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## time warp

CTValleyRR said:


> I didn't intend to imply you were being negative, but there are definitely some who would take you to task over it. Like Jerry, I'm probably overly sensitive to implications that one person's layout is less of a "model railroad" than another's.
> 
> Thanks to the folks who commented on having fun. The second part of my first post was an attempt to qualify what we're doing with our hobby -- because it IS playing. To see how I feel about that, check out my signature! Maybe it's the transient nature of the plaything that makes it a toy rather than a model.


 Thanks, I understood perfectly your post, got me to thinking actually. Ive seen your comments in other threads, so I knew your comments were genuine. Bearing in mind that I'm new around here, are you running EP 5's?


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## D&J Railroad

Shdwdrgn said:


> Personally I would say it all comes down to intent...
> 
> A 'toy' is something you take out of the box, set up and play with for a bit, then put it away again, and that's it.


So when I get a new BLI Big Boy loco, take it outa the box, run it for a bit then put it back in the box for storage, that's a toy?


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## time warp

D&J Railroad said:


> So when I get a new BLI Big Boy loco, take it outa the box, run it for a bit then put it back in the box for storage, that's a toy?


Does it matter? Stunning locomotive for sure, but if you think of it as a model, its a model. If you consider it a toy, its a toy. The point of this discussion is really how YOU feel about YOUR trains. We've all been commenting on the hobby in general from each individual perspective. Were not litigating here. Really nice stuff you've got I'm sure.


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## D&J Railroad

time warp said:


> Does it matter? Stunning locomotive for sure, but if you think of it as a model, its a model. If you consider it a toy, its a toy. The point of this discussion is really how YOU feel about YOUR trains. We've all been commenting on the hobby in general from each individual perspective. Were not litigating here. Really nice stuff you've got I'm sure.


The thread seemed to be what individuals thought of their trains vs. how they represented those same things to others. That's the point I was getting at in my earlier post about listing your loop of track as a must see for model railroaders on a layout tour of an NMRA meet.


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## time warp

Like one-upmanship? Kinda see what you mean , but I havn't read any posts that would lead me that way. I think everyone here deserves a little more credit. I went back and re- read all the posts earlier and found a few things I missed, made me feel better about this subject. Worst thing about text or postings like this is that you can't convey thoughts like you can in normal conversation, some times they can be taken the wrong way. Good to know you, can you post some shots of your hogs? Would like to see some of em.


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## PhillipL

If you really think about it, all model trains are really toys for adults. The difference between the different types is the amount of details and the time. What people often refer to as "toy trains" today would be considered detailed models when compared to many of the models available in the 1960s or earlier. I am in no way trying to dismiss the model railroad hobby but when you really think about, how many times have each of said "Oh I was just playing with my trains" at some point. I have often heard my wife say, "He is in there playing with his trains". Just a thought...


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## mesenteria

Some shots of my work (two layouts ago).


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## time warp

VERY, VERY nice! I think I could achieve that level of artistry if I had Oh, a hundred years maybe!


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## 3.8TransAM

Well done toys up there


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## NAJ

I feel I have not grown up considering my hobbies/interests so to put this in perspective from the eyes of a 6 year old (another one of my Grandson's) who is really into trains...

Here is how the conversation went.
Tucker: Pops, did you finish your train platform
Pops (Me): I am still stinging wires on my telephone poles.
Tucker:When are you going to do that on my telephone poles?
Pops:It takes time to do that,we cannot do that in one day, I have been working on mine for over a month.
Tucker:A month?!, all you do is wrap the wire around one pole one time, go the next pole, wrap it around one time, and then the next pole and then you are done.

We as adults take everything to seriously, which is fine if that is what you want to do but isn't the object to HAVE FUN???
That's what the kids do and I am just a big kid.

Another instance of doing what you like and having fun doing it.
When we (me and my three 6 year old Grandson's) were at the local train show back in March Cooper wanted people for his small layout and all we could find was O gauge figures and he is running HO.
I kept telling him "they are not to scale, they are too big for your trains".
He kept bugging me so I got them for him.
When we got home and he put them on his platform he said...
"Next time I can get what I want even if if you say they are not the right size, they are my trains and I can do it however I want".

Kids do not care about detail or scale, for them trains are FUN!


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## time warp

Amen!


----------



## Genetk44

mesenteria said:


> Some shots of my work (two layouts ago).



Beautiful job!:smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos:


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## mesenteria

Thanks, everyone. I got lucky in several ways on that layout. I learned how to make decent scenery, how to lay splined sub-roadbed, and how to light and to image a scene using a decent digital camera. Finally, and later, how to do stacked focus processing so that the final image looked like the viewer was not really a point-and-shoot camera that showed unfocused rails and details nearest the lens. 

The lucky part? Finding informative threads hosted and populated by well-meaning modellers who shared their techniques.


----------



## Ace

NAJ said:


> ... Cooper wanted people for his small layout and all we could find was O gauge figures and he is running HO.
> I kept telling him "they are not to scale, they are too big for your trains".
> He kept bugging me so I got them for him.
> When we got home and he put them on his platform he said...
> "Next time I can get what I want even if if you say they are not the right size, they are my trains and I can do it however I want".
> 
> Kids do not care about detail or scale, for them trains are FUN!


That is classic. I like to think of it this way:

We are big people modelling small trains. Imagine if we had really BIG trains at 50% of real size. Then we would be like O-scale people on an HO layout. Wouldn't that be cool?


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## NAJ

time warp said:


> Amen!





Ace said:


> That is classic. I like to think of it this way:
> 
> We are big people modelling small trains. Imagine if we had really BIG trains at 50% of real size. Then we would be like O-scale people on an HO layout. Wouldn't that be cool?


At this point in my life when everyday things start to get to me and I start to loose perspective on what is important and how to relax and have fun I just spend time with my Grandkids (every weekend) and it all falls back into place.

That also includes when I start getting too serious or upset about my Model ("Toy") Trains and Layout.


----------



## Kelly Wood

CTValleyRR said:


> This is a dangerous precedent. I left a previous forum because too many threads degenerated into "You're not a model railroader if... (or unless)".
> 
> This is a tremendous hobby, and there is room for all tastes and styles under the broad umbrella of "model railroading". Greater detail or operational fidelity does not make one more or less of a model railroader.
> 
> My uncle had an enormous HO scale layout, with absolutely no scenery, no unified theme (European and US locos and rolling stock side by side, even intermingled) and no pretention to realistic operations, just a basement sized series of interconnected loops. Yet I wouldn't call that a toy, by any means.
> 
> A train set -- no matter how detailed -- which is intended as a child's plaything would be a toy. A set, or layout, no matter how detailed or prototypically accurate, which is intended as an entertaining diversion for someone who is mature enough to respect it, preserve it, and expand it, is a model railroad, no matter how toy like the appearance.
> 
> Just my $0.05...


I'll agree with this. :appl:


----------



## time warp

Kelly Wood said:


> I'll agree with this. :appl:


Welcome! This has been a very interesting thread with many thought provoking posts. I'm hoping that everyone that responds takes the time to read through it. Good to have you here!


----------



## TheDragonslayer

I have enjoyed this thread. I am part of a discussion on a Facebook page for the county I live in that is about railroads and trestles. Tomorrow night I am going to the Eureka model railroad club for the Saturday night meeting and am taking my trestle to show them. When I got the set running after I got it in March, I was fine with it being a toy, but I started setting up my table, then built a trestle, next is a covered bridge of which I will be doing local photo trips to see the ones near me. The set I got was just a toy, a Tyco set from the red box era. Now it is a hobby and I am enjoying it.


----------



## NAJ

TheDragonslayer said:


> I have enjoyed this thread. I am part of a discussion on a Facebook page for the county I live in that is about railroads and trestles. Tomorrow night I am going to the Eureka model railroad club for the Saturday night meeting and am taking my trestle to show them. When I got the set running after I got it in March, I was fine with it being a toy, but I started setting up my table, then built a trestle, next is a covered bridge of which I will be doing local photo trips to see the ones near me. The set I got was just a toy, a Tyco set from the red box era. Now it is a hobby and I am enjoying it.


And your last sentence is the one that is key.


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## CTValleyRR

NAJ said:


> Another instance of doing what you like and having fun doing it.
> When we (me and my three 6 year old Grandson's) were at the local train show back in March Cooper wanted people for his small layout and all we could find was O gauge figures and he is running HO.
> I kept telling him "they are not to scale, they are too big for your trains".
> He kept bugging me so I got them for him.
> When we got home and he put them on his platform he said...
> "Next time I can get what I want even if if you say they are not the right size, they are my trains and I can do it however I want".
> 
> Kids do not care about detail or scale, for them trains are FUN!


This brings back a great memory. When my son, at 4-1/2 years, decided he wanted a layout of his own, we got him HO Thomas stuff, with it's oversized figures, and he added some 1/72 scale vehicles, had cows on buildings, all kinds of crazy stuff, and it was all good! Now, 9 years later, he has ditched all the oversized stuff and has an expanded track plan with a unified (Conrail 1970's) theme... but he still loves the occasional silly bit: a cow in the supermarket, a burning building while the fire department struggles to get a cat out of a tree, a WWII Pzkfw Mk IV being driven down the street with the cops in hot pursuit. That's how our interests grow and develop. Who knows what the future will bring on that layout (if he's like me, cars, girls, college, military service, building a career and family, and a 20 year break in his modeling interests, but that's another story).


----------



## Ace

This looks like a fun HO "toy train" that would appeal to a modern child of any age. Someone want to tell us the story behind these? It is unfamiliar to me.








_I want one._


----------



## time warp

TYCO turbo train, I don't know much but I just got a controller and track for one in a box of stuff I bought


----------



## Ace

Wow, this high-speed Tyco Turbo-train holds the curves really well ...





I think the Tyco Turbo Train first appeared in their 1986 catalog.
http://hoseeker.net/tyco.htm









These might rely on magnets and steel rail to hold the track at speed?
Cool commercial:


----------



## Kelly Wood

time warp said:


> Welcome! This has been a very interesting thread with many thought provoking posts. I'm hoping that everyone that responds takes the time to read through it. Good to have you here!


Thanks again. I look at it one way. It's a hobby and it keeps my mind at peace.


----------



## time warp

gregc said:


> there are those who are more interested with "modeling" the operation of a railroad rather than its appearance. I think it's Boomer Pete in "How to Run a Model Railroad" that talks about modelers having a layout setup on the floor or short bench-work which they step over to operate their trains. They're not interested it appearance.
> 
> i believe there are many different type of "model railroaders".


In re- reading your post I was reminded of a couple of articles I saw years ago. The first was a layout feature in RMC I think, showing an incredible HO layout with NO scenery. It had a working hump, signaling, card order and you name it. It ran as close to prototype as possible. The second was a feature in MR by Westcott. Showed round Robin type model railroading in Japan. No one had a layout, they would gather various places and put all their stuff together on the floor to run trains for a few hours. Everybody counted on everybody. 
My late friend Al Bastein had a no scenery Lionel layout in his basement, built on hand made sheet metal tables. Working hump and ran great. Only layout I've seen with steel ground cover! Yes, there are many types of model railroaders.


----------



## santafealltheway

Ace said:


> Wow, this high-speed Tyco Turbo-train holds the curves really well ...
> https://youtu.be/Zqr5TNFPBpo
> 
> I think the Tyco Turbo Train first appeared in their 1986 catalog.
> http://hoseeker.net/tyco.htm
> 
> View attachment 182257
> 
> 
> These might rely on magnets and steel rail to hold the track at speed?
> Cool commercial: https://youtu.be/-C1htkDLhvg


Yup, magnets in the cars and steel rails


----------



## greenwizard88

D&J Railroad said:


> So when I get a new BLI Big Boy loco, take it outa the box, run it for a bit then put it back in the box for storage, that's a toy?


It's no different than when my 2 year old gets her Barbie doll out of the toy chest, plays with it for a bit, then puts it back in the box for storage. Actually, as her income is the few coins she finds that fall out of my pocket, the Barbie doll represents a greater percent of her gross income than the BLI Big Boy does for you. So yes, it's a toy. That's also why I'm quite happy letting my Rapido F40's pull Life-Like passenger cars I got at Toys 'R' Us when I was 10.


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## doneuald

I PLAY WITH TOY TRAINS! THEY ARE NOT REAL!
Am I a model railroader - hmmm no I'm not.
do I have well made model trains - yes
do I hang out with a bunch of guys with similar interest - yes (and sometimes we get work done!)
I love BIG locomotives and new technology - yes and no they don't all match my local RR
I've also heard in conversation "I you don't scratch build your RR cars and building your NOT a model railroader!" - I can live with that but I still have fun with the guys I hang with, the people on this forum and if I'm not the 10 out of 10 person it's my choice but still can appreciate the people who are 10/10 but don't discount the 1 through 9 guys because they are not detailing everything to the max!
It comes down to if you enjoy what you are doing then you do it more!
I say for the guy who has a loop of track on a table in the basement if thats what your happy with great, if you have a layout thats detailed to the smallest snail great, me, I'm like trying to engineer less expensive ways to do things like using cat5 network cable on my MRC DCC system and getting 6 guys around the table each moving a locomotive with their smartphones ( these guys are not used to this level of technology) BUT we all had fun doing it.
sorry if this came off as a rant, it's not just a statement of how I feel about this hobby.
Don


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## Big Ed

doneuald said:


> I PLAY WITH TOY TRAINS! THEY ARE NOT REAL!
> Am I a model railroader - hmmm no I'm not.
> do I have well made model trains - yes
> do I hang out with a bunch of guys with similar interest - yes (and sometimes we get work done!)
> I love BIG locomotives and new technology - yes and no they don't all match my local RR
> I've also heard in conversation "I you don't scratch build your RR cars and building your NOT a model railroader!" - I can live with that but I still have fun with the guys I hang with, the people on this forum and if I'm not the 10 out of 10 person it's my choice but still can appreciate the people who are 10/10 but don't discount the 1 through 9 guys because they are not detailing everything to the max!
> It comes down to if you enjoy what you are doing then you do it more!
> I say for the guy who has a loop of track on a table in the basement if thats what your happy with great, if you have a layout thats* detailed to the smallest snail *great, me, I'm like trying to engineer less expensive ways to do things like using cat5 network cable on my MRC DCC system and getting 6 guys around the table each moving a locomotive with their smartphones ( these guys are not used to this level of technology) BUT we all had fun doing it.
> sorry if this came off as a rant, it's not just a statement of how I feel about this hobby.
> Don


* "detailed to the smallest snail" Ha Ha ha :laugh:

Like I always say, no matter what scale you model they are all just toys!
But a lot will not agree with this. :smokin:
*


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## time warp

Main thing is to have fun! If your models/ toys/ train set/ layout/ pike/ Railroad/ whatever can't be ENJOYED you are involved in the wrong hobby!


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## doneuald

I have an actual retired engineer in my group and he's got some n scale stuf, when i brought out my HO scale with DCC and sound he started to get the real itch to make a layout and get a new engine with DCC and sound


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## JNXT 7707

doneuald said:


> I've also heard in conversation "I you don't scratch build your RR cars and building your NOT a model railroader!"


That's my trigger phrase. Drives me right up the wall :laugh:

How about if you scratch build all your railroad cars but they aren't all in the same era? Back to just toys?


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## mopac

I don't know how I missed this thread but just found it. I have read every post.
I enjoyed them. Sure got me thinking how I view my trains. Funny thing is I am
not sure about them. Yes they are toys, but I never call them that. I would bet
not many of us use the phrase "toy trains". Mostly people that use that phrase
seem to not be into trains at all. My wife would have called them toy trains. Kids
have toys, adults have hobbies. I need to get my new layout going. When I get it
running good, I will be happy. Scenery may or may not come later. I am a runner.
I like to watch them run. I will get to the scenery and want to do it well. But I want
to run first. I have very cheap trains to very expensive trains. I like them all. I don't even call my cheap trains toys. But you know what, after reading the posts, everybody
is a little different. Fine with me.


----------



## tr1

*Name calling in 1/87th scale*

If you want to know my friend,I think the preferred name calling would be"model trains" or "model railroading." everything on a layout is a model or a representation of some object found out in nature.Hence "the model train layout"
with scenery,that part, is difficult to call it "completed" at anyone time.Regards,tr1


----------



## time warp

tr1 said:


> If you want to know my friend,I think the preferred name calling would be"model trains" or "model railroading." everything on a layout is a model or a representation of some object found out in nature.Hence "the model train layout"
> with scenery,that part, is difficult to call it "completed" at anyone time.Regards,tr1


Go back and read post #20
I am impressed by the responses here, as I stated before. In the opening post I wrote about the fact that I considered MY trains to be toys, and being new to this forum I wondered what " category" I fit into. And frankly, having seen the kind of work being accomplished by many here, I found myself hesitant and a little embarrassed to share much about my little HO world.
But thanks to the various comments I began to see things differently. 
Yes, I still think I have toy trains, but what you or I call them doesn't matter. The fact that we all enjoy them is what matters and I'm glad to be part of it.


----------



## CTValleyRR

JNXT 7707 said:


> That's my trigger phrase. Drives me right up the wall :laugh:


I agree! It's a form of snobbery that I just can't abide.

In Mystic Seaport in SE CT, there is a scale model of the early development of the town. Complete with a railroad. Now, the guy who built that is not a model railroader, he's a professional.

For the rest of us, no matter how simple or complicated, it's a hobby, and there's plenty of room for everyone. What thrills you may bore the heck out of me, and vice versa. You may derive deep satisfaction from a detailed depiction of a real place, I may find a Disneyesque fantasy more entertaining. And it's all OK. And it's all model railroading.

And if you wonder what I think about playing with toys at my age, well, see my signature block!


----------



## Old_Hobo

"Toys" are what you want them to be.....my friends who are "car nuts" refer to their prized possessions as toys....they have no problems accepting people calling them their "toys', and they are full size, *REAL *cars....


----------



## CTValleyRR

Old_Hobo said:


> "Toys" are what you want them to be.....my friends who are "car nuts" refer to their prized possessions as toys....they have no problems accepting people calling them their "toys', and they are full size, *REAL *cars....


No, they're not *REAL* cars unless....

Oh. Never mind!


----------



## time warp

You know, I've mentioned my personal situation here and how it has pleasantly influenced my current enjoyment of this hobby. Namely the involvement of my young son.
But as we started building our layout right after Thanksgiving day, Things have slowly evolved. Yes, our layout and scenery is very simplistic, but now We have built about 6 structure kits together, He helps me de bug locomotives and trackwork, and now He's getting acquainted with operations and how our interchange track works.
We've got 2 loops with a passing siding and around the outer edge there is a point to point branch. I figured He'd run trains around the loops and ignore the branch. To my surprise He loves the branch, calls it the " back and forth" train.
Who would have guessed? It's turning in to a model railroad! We run our toy trains on it!


----------



## Shdwdrgn

The whole debate of scale models all being toys made me think of my previous hobby -- trebuchets. My treb is 20 feet long and stands 12 feet tall (the top of the arm reaches almost 30 feet). We threw bowling balls around 700-900 feet using a counterweight of up to 1400 pounds. At best, this is only a 1/2 to 1/4 scale model of the actual machines used in war. And since it is nothing more than a scale model, that makes this a "toy", right?

Let's be honest here. I probably spent more time building and fine-tuning my treb than anyone in war time ever did. And there was never any doubt that if we weren't careful, this thing could KILL you. And yet, it still qualifies as a toy. I didn't build it to do any real work, to tear down castle walls or hurl dead cattle. It was built for my entertainment.

You could easily argue that anything built for amusement is a toy. You could argue that anything which you have put time and effort into is no longer a toy. But I very strongly believe that you CANNOT argue is that one man's model railroad is any more or less a toy because they put more research or detail into building it, their model is more prototypical or looks like a disneyland ride, and you certainly can't judge by a monetary value. No matter how you build your railroad, this is still a "hobby" to everyone, and personal value is the only thing that matters.


----------



## Big Ed

time warp said:


> Who would have guessed? It's turning in to a model railroad! We run our toy trains on it!


There you go, Toy trains on a model railroad. :thumbsup:


----------



## time warp

Shdwdrgn said:


> The whole debate of scale models all being toys made me think of my previous hobby -- trebuchets. My treb is 20 feet long and stands 12 feet tall (the top of the arm reaches almost 30 feet). We threw bowling balls around 700-900 feet using a counterweight of up to 1400 pounds. At best, this is only a 1/2 to 1/4 scale model of the actual machines used in war. And since it is nothing more than a scale model, that makes this a "toy", right?
> 
> Let's be honest here. I probably spent more time building and fine-tuning my treb than anyone in war time ever did. And there was never any doubt that if we weren't careful, this thing could KILL you. And yet, it still qualifies as a toy. I didn't build it to do any real work, to tear down castle walls or hurl dead cattle. It was built for my entertainment.
> 
> You could easily argue that anything built for amusement is a toy. You could argue that anything which you have put time and effort into is no longer a toy. But I very strongly believe that you CANNOT argue is that one man's model railroad is any more or less a toy because they put more research or detail into building it, their model is more prototypical or looks like a disneyland ride, and you certainly can't judge by a monetary value. No matter how you build your railroad, this is still a "hobby" to everyone, and personal value is the only thing that matters.


 Imagine a layout with a treb. A munitions plant for the projectiles ( hoppers in, gondolas out), troop trains and freight for the support of the treb, and then a salvage line laid into " ground zero" for the salvage clean up. Of course you could run passenger specials for the inspecting dignitaries. Be a perfect concept for a narrow gauge line.


----------



## JNXT 7707

Old_Hobo said:


> "Toys" are what you want them to be.....my friends who are "car nuts" refer to their prized possessions as toys....they have no problems accepting people calling them their "toys', and they are full size, *REAL *cars....


EXACTLY! I have said that myself. 
And I did so because the car I was referring to as my "toy" was basically a non-necessary vehicle that was driven purely for fun!
As it turns out, I finally sold the car because I was focusing all my 'fun' time on my model (toy?) trains, and the car was sitting in the garage rather than being driven and enjoyed.


----------



## Old_Hobo

It has been said: "The difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys"......


----------



## Shdwdrgn

time warp said:


> Imagine a layout with a treb. A munitions plant for the projectiles ( hoppers in, gondolas out), troop trains and freight for the support of the treb, and then a salvage line laid into " ground zero" for the salvage clean up. Of course you could run passenger specials for the inspecting dignitaries. Be a perfect concept for a narrow gauge line.


I'm trying to add a video camera to my arduino controller so I can have live video from each loco. With that in mind, I have a mountain pass which will be somewhat hidden from normal view. I want to make a dragon poke his head out of a cave on one side of the track, then have a trebuchet fire at him from the other side of the track. I'm thinking that would be an awesome easter-egg to see from the camera view.


----------



## time warp

Cool!


----------



## SD90

I love this hobby, it's fun, and can take on whatever route you wish, running trains, operations, super detailing, scratch building, painting whatever interests you, it's all great! It's supposed to be fun, that's what a hobby is! If you're having fun, your doing it right!


----------



## time warp

In case no one has said it, welcome to the forum SD90!


----------



## SBRacing

So I'll be moving soon and ill be able to create my dream layout. Most of it will be highly detailed and scale correct. However I will have a toyish section in the corner of the layout. As much as I love the detailed and realistic looking stuff my O gauge layout will be a toy style layout.

Love both type and both can look great if done correctly.


----------



## TheDragonslayer

Shdwdrgn said:


> I'm trying to add a video camera to my arduino controller so I can have live video from each loco. With that in mind, I have a mountain pass which will be somewhat hidden from normal view. I want to make a dragon poke his head out of a cave on one side of the track, then have a trebuchet fire at him from the other side of the track. I'm thinking that would be an awesome easter-egg to see from the camera view.


I saw this small video camera online. It is small enough to put on an HO train or car, it is wireless and charges off your phone or computer, it is 12 megapixel and supports a 32 gig tf card. Best part is they are under $40. I want to get one to put on my train set or one of my dogs.

http://www.gearbest.com/car-dvr/pp_...m=fb_ads&utm_campaign=GBII&utm_content=123916


----------



## time warp

At that price you should really get one for each of us,!:laugh:


----------



## time warp

My LHS has a Lionel railscope set up in the original box, it's a trifle more than $40.00.


----------



## SD90

time warp said:


> In case no one has said it, welcome to the forum SD90!


Thank you!


----------



## Shdwdrgn

TheDragonslayer said:


> I saw this small video camera online. It is small enough to put on an HO train or car, it is wireless and charges off your phone or computer, it is 12 megapixel and supports a 32 gig tf card. Best part is they are under $40. I want to get one to put on my train set or one of my dogs.
> 
> http://www.gearbest.com/car-dvr/pp_...m=fb_ads&utm_campaign=GBII&utm_content=123916


Nice little camera, but I don't think that would work for any of us. It saves video to a memory card, but I don't see that it outputs a live stream of video any way except through an RCA jack... So it wouldn't provide a live view of the train on a computer screen. What I'm looking for needs to interface directly with an arduino. Thanks anyway though.


----------



## Smokinapankake

So I go strolling into the local hobby shop with my oh-so-patient wife to look at some trains and stuff... 
After looking around on her own for about 10 minutes while I discussed something with the proprietor, she comes over to me and says "So this is how men play Barbies". 

Her intention was to illustrate to me the way that train guys (or RC modelers, or comic book collectors, or Lego maniacs, or whatever) escape the everyday doldrums of life into a world of imagination and pretense, just like she did as a child playing with her Barbies. 

Toys vs. scale models vs. collectibles: Irrelevant. I enjoy them for what they are: an escape from the pressures of everyday life, and an outlet for my own creative instincts. A way to create rather than destroy, play rather than work, be active rather than vegetate, and generally add some quotient of value to my life. 

All that said, I prefer Athearn blue box with knuckle couplers, but am too intimidated/lazy to build scenery and would rather spend my limited money on trains rather than buildings and people. I operate in that I turn 'em on and watch them chase their tails until I decide to change up the consist. 

But most of all, I just have fun.....


----------



## CTValleyRR

Smokinapankake said:


> So I go strolling into the local hobby shop with my oh-so-patient wife to look at some trains and stuff...
> After looking around on her own for about 10 minutes while I discussed something with the proprietor, she comes over to me and says "So this is how men play Barbies".
> 
> Her intention was to illustrate to me the way that train guys (or RC modelers, or comic book collectors, or Lego maniacs, or whatever) escape the everyday doldrums of life into a world of imagination and pretense, just like she did as a child playing with her Barbies.
> 
> Toys vs. scale models vs. collectibles: Irrelevant. I enjoy them for what they are: an escape from the pressures of everyday life, and an outlet for my own creative instincts. A way to create rather than destroy, play rather than work, be active rather than vegetate, and generally add some quotient of value to my life.
> 
> All that said, I prefer Athearn blue box with knuckle couplers, but am too intimidated/lazy to build scenery and would rather spend my limited money on trains rather than buildings and people. I operate in that I turn 'em on and watch them chase their tails until I decide to change up the consist.
> 
> But most of all, I just have fun.....


You sound like my uncle. He had tons of trains and track everywhere, but no scenery and only a very few structures. No vehicles or people either.


----------



## Lester Perry

TheDragonslayer said:


> I saw this small video camera online. It is small enough to put on an HO train or car, it is wireless and charges off your phone or computer, it is 12 megapixel and supports a 32 gig tf card. Best part is they are under $40. I want to get one to put on my train set or one of my dogs.
> 
> http://www.gearbest.com/car-dvr/pp_...m=fb_ads&utm_campaign=GBII&utm_content=123916


may I inquire as to what, where, when, ect


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## CTValleyRR

Lester Perry said:


> may I inquire as to what, where, when, ect


Click on the link at the bottom of his post.


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## time warp

Smokinapankake said:


> So I go strolling into the local hobby shop with my oh-so-patient wife to look at some trains and stuff...
> After looking around on her own for about 10 minutes while I discussed something with the proprietor, she comes over to me and says "So this is how men play Barbies".
> 
> Her intention was to illustrate to me the way that train guys (or RC modelers, or comic book collectors, or Lego maniacs, or whatever) escape the everyday doldrums of life into a world of imagination and pretense, just like she did as a child playing with her Barbies.
> 
> Toys vs. scale models vs. collectibles: Irrelevant. I enjoy them for what they are: an escape from the pressures of everyday life, and an outlet for my own creative instincts. A way to create rather than destroy, play rather than work, be active rather than vegetate, and generally add some quotient of value to my life.
> 
> All that said, I prefer Athearn blue box with knuckle couplers, but am too intimidated/lazy to build scenery and would rather spend my limited money on trains rather than buildings and people. I operate in that I turn 'em on and watch them chase their tails until I decide to change up the consist.
> 
> But most of all, I just have fun.....


Rail Therapy.:thumbsup:
Model trains should be happy things


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## time warp

I still see comments being posted by newcomers regarding criticism for their type or choice of railroading. I had some reservations when I first joined MTF, thinking I wouldn't fit in around here. Boy, was I wrong! The comments throughout this thread showed me that there is a great crowd here. And the time since has proven that over and over. :thumbsup:


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## thedoc

time warp said:


> I still see comments being posted by newcomers regarding criticism for their type or choice of railroading. I had some reservations when I first joined MTF, thinking I wouldn't fit in around here. Boy, was I wrong! The comments throughout this thread showed me that there is a great crowd here. And the time since has proven that over and over. :thumbsup:


One of the great things about Model Railroading is the variety of ways it can be enjoyed. Smokin' mentioned Toy trains, scale models, and collecting, is should also be noted that some get their enjoyment out of telling others how wrong they are for doing it differently. You can always just listen politely and let them finish, and then go back to doing it the way that is fun for you. It's only when they try to make you do it their way, that you need to put your foot down, preferably on top of theirs, and tell them to go away. Perhaps that is why I play with trains by myself, I tried clubs but always got a bad feeling about the club doing things in a way that didn't suit me, I didn't always think they were wrong, I just didn't like it.


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## NAJ

When I get home from work I make coffee, turn on the computer and start the train running.
I can only see 1/4 of the layout from where I am sitting but I can here the train running and it relaxes me.


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## JNXT 7707

thedoc said:


> Perhaps that is why I play with trains by myself, I tried clubs but always got a bad feeling about the club doing things in a way that didn't suit me, I didn't always think they were wrong, I just didn't like it.


This is my feeling as well, I was invited once to the local club but it never appealed to me - I enjoy working by myself on my trains and layout ... and yes, playing by myself too. I'm not real big on collaborative efforts


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## time warp

I think some aspects of this hobby are very personal. What railroads you like, colors, certain sounds and whatever else it is that a person enjoys. It's hard if not impossible to share that sometimes, it's individuality. I have deliberate wide gaps in some of my track because I want to hear the train wheels clicking past, Certain locomotives I love the sound of, my son has a boxcar that wobbles as it rolls along and he likes it that way. 
It would be easy for things like this to get lost in a group setting, at least for me.
I was part of a club years ago and I enjoyed it very much, but chiefly the social aspect. Friends for life I made then. But not so much running or operating trains, I did that at home.


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## Cycleops

thedoc said:


> Perhaps that is why I play with trains by myself, I tried clubs but always got a bad feeling about the club doing things in a way that didn't suit me, I didn't always think they were wrong, I just didn't like it.


You've hit the nail on the head. When at home by yourself you can do exactly what you want and you don't have to abide by anyone else's rules. It's perhaps for the non conformists like you, me and many others. Some like being part of a group and that's also fine. Like Groucho Marx once said' I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member'.


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## CTValleyRR

thedoc said:


> One of the great things about Model Railroading is the variety of ways it can be enjoyed. Smokin' mentioned Toy trains, scale models, and collecting, is should also be noted that some get their enjoyment out of telling others how wrong they are for doing it differently. You can always just listen politely and let them finish, and then go back to doing it the way that is fun for you. It's only when they try to make you do it their way, that you need to put your foot down, preferably on top of theirs, and tell them to go away. Perhaps that is why I play with trains by myself, I tried clubs but always got a bad feeling about the club doing things in a way that didn't suit me, I didn't always think they were wrong, I just didn't like it.


I agree with you -- I've visited a couple of clubs, and I much prefer home, where it's "My Layout, My Rules".

Note that one of the members who enjoyed telling others that he (and he alone) was right is no longer with us. It's interesting that in his final post, he asked if I was a member of a club, as if that is a prerequisite for participation in the hobby or something.


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## santafealltheway

Yup.. as long as you like your trains, you're doing it right lol.


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## PhillipL

I have been doing model railroading since 1992 (I also loved it when I was a kid form around 1967 to 1978). When I restarted in 1992, I really emphasized on detailed locomotives and rolling stock (mostly European), I started moving towards US trains around 2005 again with an emphasis on detailed models. Over the last six years I have changed to more middle of road detailing such as Atlas Trainman, Walthers Mainline, Athearn RTR and some Bachmann. I got tired to accidentally damaging super detailed models and decided I had more fun just running my trains. I really believe that the most important part of this hobby is doing what you enjoy; if that means exact prototypical modeling or just running trains for fun so be it. Just have fun!


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## Mr.Buchholz

I always refer to everything as my model railroad, but I really believe that it's up to the individual to call it what they like. If it makes you happy to call them toy trains, then do so. I won't argue with anyone over something like this. The main thing is that you have a railroad/train set and it brings you happiness. If it puts a smile on your face, whether you've spent thousands or under 100 bucks, then it's all good. The minute we start micromanaging the hobby is when we start sliding down a slippery slope.

-J.


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## CTValleyRR

Call it what you like. I do it because 1) it's fun, and 2) it's very satisfying to build something and see the results.


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## Dalebaker

CTValleyRR said:


> Call it what you like. I do it because 1) it's fun, and 2) it's very satisfying to build something and see the results.


A Men:appl:

I feel the same way. I would hardly call super detailing, weathering, layout building, wiring, ect a toy. We all have different skills and do what we do best.


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## time warp

What it all comes down to, I think, is not so much how someone enjoys the hobby. But rather that you're able to enjoy and share with others despite having different ways of model railroading.
I play with toy trains some days. Brightly painted diesels with shiny paint pulling kooky boxcars. Other days I'm running a scale railroad, shuffling hoppers and running coal trains on a schedule. Either way I'm good. I just wish more could be that way.


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## davidone

I'm with you guys. My layout is mostly steam and I run what I like. I have used prebuilt building from Menards and others to the chagrin of some freinds. 

I don't do operations but I like running my trains thru the scenery I made. I think everybody should run their trains the way they want. Also run the kind of trains you want, be it Athearn, BLI, Tyco etc. By all means have fun.

Dave


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## 3.8TransAM

PhillipL said:


> I have been doing model railroading since 1992 (I also loved it when I was a kid form around 1967 to 1978). When I restarted in 1992, I really emphasized on detailed locomotives and rolling stock (mostly European), I started moving towards US trains around 2005 again with an emphasis on detailed models. Over the last six years I have changed to more middle of road detailing such as Atlas Trainman, Walthers Mainline, Athearn RTR and some Bachmann. I got tired to accidentally damaging super detailed models and decided I had more fun just running my trains. I really believe that the most important part of this hobby is doing what you enjoy; if that means exact prototypical modeling or just running trains for fun so be it. Just have fun!


We think alike!

As of yet, no place to run at the house, so everything goes to the club to run with my 6 yr old.

Too much detail does me no good.....................

I've also learned when mainline running or working the yard, you can't see that detail either

Our next project will be weathering our stuff.

Man, do I love the Branchline Yardmaster stuff/Atlas Trainman box car kits.......................


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## Chip

WHEW! I'm so thankful for this forum, it really helps to know this particular brand of insanity is not just MY problem! It's all good, I like to "play" with em WHILE trying to "run a railroad"! Roundy-round is all well and good but even "Mr Nonproto" me needs to see em "doing" SOMETHING to justify paying the overtime hours those little crewman put in! 

No loafing on "company time"! LOL!


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## JNXT 7707

Dalebaker said:


> A Men:appl:
> 
> I feel the same way. I would hardly call super detailing, weathering, layout building, wiring, ect a toy. We all have different skills and do what we do best.


Maybe the secondary question for this thread should be: What is a toy? The term "toy trains" seems to suggest something a 5-year old would play with....so what would a 50-year old play with? 

You are enjoying super detailing, building the layout, wiring, and all the rest that goes with it. I would call that a more advanced form of 'play', because you are (I hope!) having fun.

Play naturally involves toys...but the term "toy" doesn't isn't confined to day-glow molded plastic with bright blue wheels


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## thedoc

FYI, I use the term "Toy Train" only to differentiate the manner in which a hobbyist plays with trains. Some like to build a railroad that simulates a transportation system from one place to another, others like to collect as many different trains, and run them, as they can. Either way can provide enjoyment, and that is OK, it's just that I have seen a lot of people who collect and run "Toy Trains" at the show I attend. I am just trying ti differentiate the different approaches to the hobby. If you feel that I am demeaning your way of playing with trains, that's your problem, not mine.


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## Chip

thedoc said:


> FYI, I use the term "Toy Train" only to differentiate the manner in which a hobbyist plays with trains. Some like to build a railroad that simulates a transportation system from one place to another, others like to collect as many different trains, and run them, as they can. Either way can provide enjoyment, and that is OK, it's just that I have seen a lot of people who collect and run "Toy Trains" at the show I attend. I am just trying ti differentiate the different approaches to the hobby. If you feel that I am demeaning your way of playing with trains, that's your problem, not mine.


LOL! You speakn TRUTH! Like "the MAN" said, "your road, your rules"!

There are as many ways to "play" with our "toy trains" as there are layouts to run on! I call em "toys" because of the size NOT because of the PRICE, My first REAL car back in the 70's was a Maveric and cost me transfer of title, only about four bucks. 

My Riv "Big Boy" was near 600 bucks and the BLI steamers I got aint far behind! 2-3 hundred was a LOW average and closer to four was the price of my "gotta haves".

I still call em "toys".

I tried to join a forum but it was "BRASS ONLY" and if you were not running 1000+ dollar loco's off the table for fun cause they were "cheap trash" they would not even TALK to you! 

"Deities with disabilities!" This can get expensive!


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## Old_Hobo

How does the saying go?

"The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys".......?

Don't know if that's true anymore.....


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## time warp

Set up a circle of track on your swap table and start running SOMETHING on it, cheapie whatever to high dollar, and watch how many people watch it.
I'm good if it runs, that's all. Little wheels on rails.

My little one has the best take, "Isn't it beautiful, Dad!"
They're trains, period.


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## mjrfd99

Some call 'em toys some call them model railroads. we call em FUN!
Wife likes to say the guys are "playing with trains" 
My now SIL was surprised when he came here the first time and my daughter took him to the basement to "play" with the slots and trains. The Train/slot room is SRO at the annual Christmas Eve party, wife has to drag em from the room for dinner. I get as much enjoyment watching the grown kids back at it like when they were small as I did when they first started. 
My dad- to me- to my kids and now the grandkids- all enjoying the hobby for almost 100 years


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## Shdwdrgn

time warp said:


> Set up a circle of track on your swap table and start running SOMETHING on it, cheapie whatever to high dollar, and watch how many people watch it.


You know, this got me thinking... Maybe we could narrow down the definition between a toy and a model to a single aspect... "Do you like to share?" Time warp's comment made me think of kids, how they don't like to share their toys. And before anyone gets on me about "I don't share my models with others," ask yourself, do you like it when other people look at your layout? Do you like when they spot small details or comment on the work you've put into it? "Sharing" doesn't mean you let others run your trains, it just means you enjoy others seeing what you've built.

Of course this is just another opinion, and naturally based around my own motives. I build a lot of different things entirely by myself, but everything feels like a 'toy' until someone else has appreciated my work.


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## DougL

1. The ones you got 10 years ago and can't bear to part with although you have newer, more detailed versions. 

2. The ones you let other family members play with.


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## Chip

I never considered it when starting out until one of my first visitors was down here and all of a sudden in the back of my mind I was hearing "NNYyaaaa! DON'T touch!" The urge to "keep it to myself" was STRONG!
But the PURE JOY of the "little ones" and those few "big" ones in the family that enjoy it overpowered that and I got over it quickly. Now I've gone the other way! Sometimes I've had to TELL people to pick up a throttle, punch in a number and ROLL EM for god's sake and quit STARING! I already broke one so "have at it!"


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## raleets

Sadly, my 13 and 11 year old grandkids only get to visit once or twice a year.
However, within minutes after arrival (sometimes before they take off their coats) they are asking to "go see the trains".
My layout is in a 30' X 40' building in the backyard about 75' from the house. On more than one occasion they were willing to wade thru over a foot of snow to "go see the trains".
Just goes to show how cool those "toys" can be.
Bob


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## Chip

raleets said:


> Sadly, my 13 and 11 year old grandkids only get to visit once or twice a year.
> However, within minutes after arrival (sometimes before they take off their coats) they are asking to "go see the trains".
> My layout is in a 30' X 40' building in the backyard about 75' from the house. On more than one occasion they were willing to wade thru over a foot of snow to "go see the trains".
> Just goes to show how cool those "toys" can be.
> Bob


I know the feeling. I only get to show off the layout a couple times a year, it puts a little pressure on to have something a bit different each time but it's a good "spur" to keep me busy and it helps keep the layout "fresh".


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## time warp

Every few posts I gain a little more insight to not only how others regard this hobby, but also the enjoyment to be had.
I'm getting older, but never want that little boy inside me to die. There are still a precious few things that stir up that feeling of child - like wonder, and my trains are one of them.


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## 3.8TransAM

time warp said:


> Every few posts I gain a little more insight to not only how others regard this hobby, but also the enjoyment to be had.
> I'm getting older, but never want that little boy inside me to die. There are still a precious few things that stir up that feeling of child - like wonder, and my trains are one of them.




I hear you Time warp! What you do is nothing like what I would do, but I still crack a smile and laugh when I see what you have built and I remember a ton of it from my childhood. Wish I was on here when I did a clean out at my folks when I grabbed my old stuff, I would have sent a god chunk your way. 

Everyone has their own thing and the more you see of how others do it, the more you can decide on what is right for you to do on your own layout.


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## LateStarter

I still have most of the train set I got for Christmas as an 8 year-old.
The only changes I've made are Kadees, a Truck Tuner job, and good wheels... no weathering.
One remains a 'leaner' no matter what I do, but they're all a source of nostalgic wonderment for me, and will roll on my layout when it's railed and powered.


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## Mr.Buchholz

My original railroad or "train set" was an accumulation of HO stuffs my dad dad bought for me when I was a kid. We never really set it all up fully until my grandparents had bought a new house in 1991. A year after, my grandfather picked up some plywood and such, and we had something like a 10 X 8 layout in the basement. My 1/87 scale army truck collection and plastic army men were used, and we had the train going around with snipers on the flat cars. My grandfather even made a tunnel out of cement or something for the train to hide in when the other troops advanced!

So much fun that was. Unfortunately, I never found out what became of all that HO stuff. That original set had some cool stuff in it. I always said that if possible, I'd start a new railroad. And I did. 

-J.


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## ExONRcarman

ive read all thirteen pages of posts now, and ill tell you how i feel about my trains.they are my trains. i dont care who thinks they are toys. i dont care who thinks that it is a model. those who think its all just a pile of crap and a waste of time better get the hell outta my house. they are mine. they are an extension of me in some way.

From what ive read, most of you feel the same.

i enjoy your set ups, i hope you enjoy mine.

I know a guy, has a set up thatll blow your mind.no word of a lie, miles of track, up to fifteen wide in spots. has all locos custom made in germany, switches worth more than my entire stash, but in the center of it all is a home made tomato can water tower his brother made for him when he was young. that is no toy. way beyond any model. That water tower prooves that it is an extension of him. you tell him its a waste of time and money, he would throw you out too, because of the same reasons i would. not the money. not the time. it would be a personal attack on his, yours, or my mental well being.

thats how i feel about my trains. I suspect you guys do too.


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## NAJ

Toys or not, I love my trains and they run 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 hours every night Monday - Friday and just listening to them run relaxes me and helps me unwind.


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## tankcarsrule

I'm a rivet counter, big deal! This hobby is all about what the individual enjoys.
The more folks in the hobby the better. As MR use to say,"model railroading is fun". And your definition of fun is all that counts!

Regards, Bobby


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## time warp

tankcarsrule said:


> I'm a rivet counter, big deal! This hobby is all about what the individual enjoys.
> The more folks in the hobby the better. As MR use to say,"model railroading is fun". And your definition of fun is all that counts!
> 
> Regards, Bobby


 Good attitude, Bobby!
The remarks made in the many pages of this thread are testimony to the spirit of this forum.
I myself am a rivet counter. I love quoting data and the justification of freight movements, and the correct reasoning for what motive power should be used and when. But I'm old now, poor health, and bad eyes. My modeling reflects my inabilities and limitations, but those things have also liberated me from the frustration of fretting over correctness.
Although I have a tremendous respect and admiration for the talented modelers, I'm just having happy days with my trains, and I'm not looking back. Spent too many years fussing over them, now I just run them.


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## Ace

Pages of dialogue ... I'd like to offer a summation.

As a general rule, toy trains are for kids. Generally cheaper and made for kid play value.

Model trains are for somewhat older people who care about realism and scale fidelity. These can get real expensive, not what you would give a young child to play with.

Lots of middle ground and overlap in between with different levels of quality. I used to get annoyed if someone insinuated that my "model trains" are "toy trains", but now I'm old enough I don't give a crap about what other people might think. Different people have different perceptions about what is a model, what is a toy.

Here's some irony: I used to think that "toy trains" like old Lionel were undignified. Three rails, crude features, not true scale etc. Well surprise, I've ended up with a bunch of old Lionel and Marx and tinplate 3-rail O-gauge stuff over the last few years. It's fun, I like it for the heft and mechanical durability and historical background and ... play value. I mostly buy old broken-down O-gauge stuff cheap and repair it.

I've also been given batches of older HO "train set" items, often needing repair. Stuff that isn't up to my original HO standards but I'm finding uses for it on small "side show" layouts with different themes and trial track plans.

I still have my original HO scale trains and some N and HOn30 and misc items. It's all fun and I like the variety of operable models and toys. I try not to overthink it, I don't have to justify my hobby to others.


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