# Help me figure out what I bought and what I need to get it working...



## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

Hi everyone, first post here. I did a bit of HO stuff with my father when I was a kid, but nothing since. The other day I was going to a few garage sales and picked up a box of model train stuff pretty cheap and figured it'd make a fun project with my four year old to get it cleaned and set-up. After a bit of research, it looks like it's all O27. Biggest problem was that the locomotive in it was taken apart and after looking at it, I don't think it's repairable - it's missing a gear between the motor and the wheels, and the body is cracked so I don't think I'd be able to remount it in any case. It's number 8902 and the transformer that came in the box has DC for the track and AC for the accessories. The tender and caboose are lettered 'Atlantic Coast' and everything is plastic, so I'm assuming it's a pretty new set-up.

This past weekend was a flea market and managed to find another plastic bodied locomotive and tender, #1060. Made a deal and brought it home hoping for the best. Put it on the track and it would go for a bit, stutter, and then keep going. It never really got momentum. After messing around with cleaning up the track, I gave up on the track and decided to try it straight on the transformer with the same results.

After a bit more research, I saw that DC was a bit unique and most things actually run on AC. Hooked up the 1060 to the AC 'accessory' side of the transformer and it actually seemed to run much better. The front light was also a lot brighter than when I was trying it with DC. However, after about a minute, the transformer cut out for about thirty seconds before it would start again. It was pretty warm, so I think there may have some internal thermal switch getting tripped.

So I think that I'm getting myself confused between AC and DC. Is there anyway to tell if an engine is one or the other (or did the 1060 only come one way)? It's a bit odd that it 'worked' with both.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide. I can provide pictures of anything you guys are interested in, but I figured that a plastic ready to run set wasn't all that special. :thumbsup:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I belive your first assessment was correct from what I could find. The 8902 looks to be dc only and the 1060 looks to be ac. Some Lionel stuff is able to run on ac or dc but I don't think that is the case with the 1060. It is a forward only running engine and has a light. Made around 1960? That is if they didn't reissue that number train. The problem you have is 1) the transformer which needs to be ac and the engines preformence. The transformer you have may have a problem, that could account for the poor performance. I can't be sure. If the transformer is good the the engine should get a bit of a cleaning, oiling and check/ clean the brush plate, brushes. That's the first step.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Welcome to the site,

A copy and paste,
Motors: O/O27 trains are also known as "electric trains" because they are powered by low-voltage motors. O/O27 runs primarily on AC current. Most motors are pure AC. Some use a DC motor. Thanks to a rectifier, AC track current is converted to DC by an electrical piece inside the engine. The power is still AC and you could not really run the locomotive on DC-powered track. It is important to know if the motor inside the loco is pure AC or a DC can that receives converted electricity. Some accessories such as sound boards and electronic reversing units use the same juice that goes directly to the motor. They are either AC or DC, and your choice depends on the motor itself.

Years ago, it was impossible to use a DC motor in an AC locomotive. Thanks to smaller, cheaper rectifiers, however, the AC can be converted to DC.

That is from here, go to the bottom of the page to go back. There is a bunch of info for the new trainman.
http://www.thortrains.net/needful1.html

The 1060 was produced as "cheap" promotional sets basically it is the same as the 1050. Yours is AC.
They were made between 1960 until 1962.
They have a plastic engine as building them were "cheaper". There is some work you can perform on them but if it runs just clean it up and lube the gears, use a small drop of 5/30 or 520 motor oil.
Clean the wheels, and the center rails contact.
Goo be gone is good if you have any with a green kitchen scotch brite pad, then wipe it down with Rubbing alcohol to get it all nice and clean. Clean the rail the same way.
Clean rail and clean wheels make her run better. Try that and see how it runs, let it run for a while it should run better with time after you clean it.
Stay away from using steel wool on anything, you will pick up pieces of it in your motor.

Here is another site for you to ID locomotives and a lot of other post war trains items,
http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_1060_loco.htm

Bottom of the page click home.

Don't be afraid to ask here if you need to know by all means ask.
I am adding the links as there may be things of interest in them to you.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The AC motors had to work with DC. The DC pulse from the whistle controller activated the whistle. If it didn't the motor would stop. Still todat the track is still AC except the motors are a Can styoe DC and protected by the reverse unit.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ditto.

A "traditional" Lionel locomotive would normally run on AC power, though the motor will also work on DC.

However, you would NOT want to run a DC motor (one without the rectifyer that's mentioned above) on AC power ... it would fry the motor.

Quick timeline ...

Pre- and Post-war era of Lionel trains: AC motors running on AC power. (Will run on DC, too, though some features like e-units and whistles won't function.)

Relatively short "bad" era of Lionel (1970's / early 1980's) ... DC motors running on true DC track power. Do NOT try to run these on AC track power.

Modern Lionel era: DC motors running on AC track power, but with onboard rectifiers that convert the AC power to DC as it feeds to the "can style" DC motor.

TJ


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

Thank you guys. I didn't realize the 1060 was considered postwar, I figured since it was plastic it was the same age as the one that it came with it. It looks like my choices are to pick up an AC transformer or find a DC engine (it doesn't look like it's cost effective to try and convert the locomotive into a DC unit as suggested). There's enough extra track in here and a remote switch so it's probably a better idea to go with the a newer transformer for future expansion.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TheOnlyMonte said:


> Thank you guys. I didn't realize the 1060 was considered postwar, I figured since it was plastic it was the same age as the one that it came with it. It looks like my choices are to pick up an AC transformer or find a DC engine (it doesn't look like it's cost effective to try and convert the locomotive into a DC unit as suggested). There's enough extra track in here and a remote switch so it's probably a better idea to go with the a newer transformer for future expansion.


Postwar to 1970, then starts modern.
Plastic started way earlier then you think.
1948 was the first year Lionel made plastic locomotives.

All depends on how big your going with your layout to how big your transformer should be. But the biggest you can afford should take care of the future.
If you are going to have lights and accessories you can power them with another transformer.
How big of layout do you think it will turn out to be? Then you can plan on the transformer. What transformer do you have now?

Gunrunner John normally has good deals on transformers, John?


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

The transformer is marked 4065 and the output is marked as 0-18V DC, 19V AC. Multimeter confirms that it was putting out 19V AC, but with the locomotive on the track it was down to 8.8V. It registered 2.5 amps. Math says that should be 50W?

Running it on AC tonight it did okay, but after a while (10 mins) it gradually slowed and then the transformer warmed up and shut itself off and went into the cycle of on/off. Voltmeter confirmed it's the transformer shutting down (0 output) and not the locomotive. Also wasn't able to do more than pull it's tender towards the end. I might be abusing the A/C output on this transformer (which is marked accessory) with a locomotive though.

I'm just running it on an oval on the floor right now. The box came with a 45 crossing and two switches, I have to look at some layouts and see what I can do with it. I think I counted around 16 curves, 20 short straights, 6 long straights. I don't think I'll do anything past using what's in the box unless the kids really get into it.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Did you lube the loco yet? Lube will reduce the current requirement of the loco substantially.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

2.5 amps is to much for that loco. lube it and try again. The 2.5 amps is why you are only getting 8.8 out. With full throttle that loco should fly off the track. Don


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Monte,

Here's a nice bio on postwar Lionel transformers. You could certainly pick up a used 1033 or maybe a KW in good condition relatively cheaply ... both very durable. (The former for a mid-sized layout, the latter for a large-sized layout.)

http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lioneltransformers.htm

Regards,

TJ


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

TheOnlyMonte said:


> The transformer is marked 4065 and the output is marked as 0-18V DC, 19V AC. Multimeter confirms that it was putting out 19V AC, but with the locomotive on the track it was down to 8.8V. It registered 2.5 amps. Math says that should be 50W?
> 
> Running it on AC tonight it did okay, but after a while (10 mins) it gradually slowed and then the transformer warmed up and shut itself off and went into the cycle of on/off. Voltmeter confirmed it's the transformer shutting down (0 output) and not the locomotive. Also wasn't able to do more than pull it's tender towards the end. I might be abusing the A/C output on this transformer (which is marked accessory) with a locomotive though.
> 
> I'm just running it on an oval on the floor right now. The box came with a 45 crossing and two switches, I have to look at some layouts and see what I can do with it. I think I counted around 16 curves, 20 short straights, 6 long straights. I don't think I'll do anything past using what's in the box unless the kids really get into it.


that's a good amount of track to do something with!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I thought that John would have said something by now, maybe he has no more.
But compared to e bay he would give you a good deal and you can trust the quality of the transformer from John.
Maybe PM him if your looking for a transformer.

I can't find the number your listing, maybe a picture would help.
I am thinking it is just a little toy transformer, (that is what they called them) nothing to talk about.
And it could be a problem with the transformer itself.

Try cleaning and adding a few drops of motor oil to the locomotive.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Oil anything that turns or slides. Oil the armature bearings. Oil the gears and the shafts the gears turn on. Oil the bearings for the axles that have the wheels.


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

I'll try to lube the locomotive and see how much of a difference it makes, but I'm going to go ahead and try to get a different transformer since I have no throttle using the accessory side. Since pictures make any thread better, here's a few pictures of what I've got.

Switches and transformer








Cars








Busted loco








1060
















Box o track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice set, just enough to get hooked. The track looks good just, a bit of touch up on the engine and you've got yourself a new set! If you only want to run what you have the little 40-50 watt transformers are fine. You can probably get one on the bay or at your flea market cheap. Anything more than what you have will require more power.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

If you can try running without the rods that connect the front and rear wheels. If they are not correct it could case your problem.
I would not it much drawing 2.5 amps. It is hard on the motor. Don


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

There are no rods connecting the front and rear wheels.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If you look at the picture that is posted servoguy is right, the rod you see just goes to the one wheel.
I got one in my hand right now.

Tell me the switch on the transformer, what does it say?
Forward and reverse? 

Or on and off?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, I don't think it matters what the transformer is because it's dc. He can't use it, right?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Ed, I don't think it matters what the transformer is because it's dc. He can't use it, right?


That is a DC ? 
So it says forward and reverse, you won't find that on an AC transformer.

Then I would say yes, he needs an AC transformer.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

PW trains will run on DC, you lose the revering function along with whistle control. You can't use a DC loco with AC power without rectifying it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Kwikster said:


> PW trains will run on DC, you lose the revering function along with whistle control. You can't use a DC loco with AC power without rectifying it.


Hmmm, well his did not come with either a reversing unit or whistle. So that doesn't matter anyway.

I still say get a better AC transformer.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

DC will run post war trains just fine. The "AC" motor in the post war trains is actually a universal motor which will run on either DC or AC. The trains that are designed for DC will run only on DC unless you install a bridge rectifier ahead of the motor. 

Whistle tenders and diesel horns will operate all the time on DC or on 25 cycle AC.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, I did mention some stuff could run on both. I did not know all post war stuff could. There still could be a problem with his transformer as it is used, how would you check it? And what voltage dc would be used for that type of layout? Basically is it the right transformer for the job.


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

Let's see if I can run down some of the questions.



> There are no rods connecting the front and rear wheels.


That is correct, the rods go into a bracket in the front and don't actually appear to do anything. They only attach to the rear wheels in one location.



> Tell me the switch on the transformer, what does it say?
> Forward and reverse?
> 
> Or on and off?


Forward/reverse.



> That is a DC ?
> So it says forward and reverse, you won't find that on an AC transformer.
> 
> Then I would say yes, he needs an AC transformer.


There are two sets of outputs on it - one is labeled TRACK (DC) and the other ACCESSORY (AC). The throttle has no effect on the ACCESSORY output, just the TRACK output.



> DC will run post war trains just fine. The "AC" motor in the post war trains is actually a universal motor which will run on either DC or AC. The trains that are designed for DC will run only on DC unless you install a bridge rectifier ahead of the motor.


It appeared to me that the 1060 locomotive ran much better on the AC output (marked accessory) than when I was trying it on the DC output. When I tried the DC output, it would run about one section of track before stuttering and moving to the next. With AC, it tore around the oval for a while (5 minutes?) and gradually slowed down until the transformer heated up and shut itself down.

Right now I'm looking around for a 1033 transformer as suggested earlier.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

We're nothing if not systematic here, leave no stone unturned and such!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TheOnlyMonte said:


> Let's see if I can run down some of the questions.
> 
> 
> That is correct, the rods go into a bracket in the front and don't actually appear to do anything. They only attach to the rear wheels in one location.
> ...


PM the gunrunner add a link to this post, I am surprised he did not say anything more as to my telling you he might have one for sale.
And you would know that if he says it works good it will work good.
John puts a fair price tag on too. :thumbsup:
You get one off e bay and you don't know what your getting. :smokin:

You do know how to PM right? PM = private message.

PM him and see what he says.


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

big ed said:


> PM the gunrunner add a link to this post, I am surprised he did not say anything more as to my telling you he might have one for sale.
> And you would know that if he says it works good it will work good.
> John puts a fair price tag on too. :thumbsup:
> You get one off e bay and you don't know what your getting. :smokin:
> ...


I did and he offered me a great deal on a transformer that was larger than what I need. He didn't have any extra 1033s right now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TheOnlyMonte said:


> There's enough extra track in here and a remote switch so it's probably a better idea to go with the a newer transformer for future expansion.





TheOnlyMonte said:


> I did and he offered me a great deal on a transformer that was larger than what I need. He didn't have any extra 1033s right now.


OK, I was thinking about this statement about the future.

I don't know what he offered but it was probably a good deal. 

The bigger the better, especially if you start adding accessories and lights.
It is the bells and whistles that keep the kids (and you)  interested. 

And in the end you should be able to get your money back for it if you decide to get rid of the trains.

If you decide that you could list it here too.
What was it a KW?


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

big ed said:


> OK, I was thinking about this statement about the future.


I'm thinking if they really get into it I'll probably move into HO. I like the O right now because of the size for the boys to see and play with, but I'm already cramped for space around here.



> I don't know what he offered but it was probably a good deal.
> 
> The bigger the better, especially if you start adding accessories and lights.
> It is the bells and whistles that keep the kids (and you)  interested.
> ...


I'd suggesting PM'ing him for the details if you're interested, I don't want to make a for sale ad for him.

To continue on the topic of what should I buy, is there a reason that RWs are cheaper than 1033s? I have only one place local to check out this weekend, I'm hoping for the best.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TheOnlyMonte said:


> I'd suggesting PM'ing him for the details if you're interested, I don't want to make a for sale ad for him.


No, I was only interested in helping you out.
I have a bunch of different transformers that work and a box of others that I picked up throughout the years that need some work if I need more.

You can keep it a secret, John likes secrets too. :smokin:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Me, not a secret anywhere in sight! 

Well, that's because they're "secrets", so they're hidden.


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

I just wanted to tell everyone thank you. I couldn't find anything locally, so I stalked eBay for a few weeks and got a 1033 with a wrong handle that the seller replaced before sending to me for a few more bucks. I also picked up a whistling tender the same night (6-16673) complete with the box.

Manged to get an oval set up this morning to test everything and my 2 and 4 year couldn't get in the room fast enough when it started whistling. They watched it go around for almost two hours! The locomotive had no problem pulling the cars and the transformer didn't overheat once, so that fixed all of my issues.

Two more quick questions
1) The tender came with a sound activation toggle for the bell. I tried to wire it in using the two green wires that came with it on both sides (A and U) and both times the locomotive wouldn't even go. There's a set of screw terminals on top, I haven't tried those yet. Does anyone know if this tender even has the bell?
2) The handle drags on the transformer information plate. Is there a simple fix to lift the post up a bit or would it be better just to trim the handle?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I can only find this with that number, http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-6673-251.pdf

That is not yours right?



That came from this site,
http://www.lionel.com/CustomerServi...oAction=search&product=6-16673&productNumber=


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## TheOnlyMonte (Jun 2, 2013)

big ed said:


> I can only find this with that number, http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-6673-251.pdf
> 
> That is not yours right?


That switch looks just like the one I have. I was trying to follow the instructions here:
http://www.lionel.com/ForTheHobbyist/GeneralTipsAndFAQs/SoundButton.pdf

That seems to indicate to me that it's more of an off/on switch than a bell/whistle toggle and I don't actually need it since the transformer's whistle button works fine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That tender has only a whistle, so the standard transformer whistle button is all you need. It was supplied with the sound activation button for folks that had old transformers with no whistle capability.


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