# Ives, Winner Lines, Lionel, Lionel-Ives-- Tiny Tinplate Tenders



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

As our Tinplate Gang has gotten into photo and descriptive documentation of the variants of various locos, I thought I'd add something extra to the mix ...

A photo discussion of the variants of the "Tiny Tinplate Tenders" offered under the Ives, Winner Lines, and Lionel badges. 

By my count, there are five variants that share the same basic size / components / tinplate stampings. However, upon closer look, there are subtle difference that distinguish one from the other (in addition to the decorate paint differences, of course).

In the series of photos below, the tenders are shown consistently from top to bottom, and from left to right, in the order of the descriptive text give here:

•	"IVES R.R. LINES", Identified as 1661T, 1932 issue.
o	Small hole in front for loco pin
o	3-piece assembly
o	High slot in back for latch coupler
o	Mated to Ives 1661 electric-powered loco​

•	"1507 IVES R.R. LINES 1507", Identified as 1507, 1931-32 issue.
o	Small hole in front for loco pin
o	3-piece assembly
o	Narrow, low slot in back for older Ives style coupler
o	Mated to black-boiler/red-frame 1506 windup locos​

•	"1016 WINNER LINES 1016", Identified as 1016, 1931-32 issue.
o	Small hole in front for loco pin
o	3-piece assembly
o	Narrow, low slot in back for older Ives style coupler
o	Mated to Winner Lines (by Lionel) 1015 electric-powered locos​

•	"LIONEL LINES", Identified as 1661T (presumably a SECOND TYPE), 1934 issue.
o	Large, elongated hole in front for loco pin
o	3-piece assembly
o	High slot in back for latch coupler
o	Mated to the Lionel 1681 electric-powered loco​

•	Red, Unmarked Tender, Identified as 1516T, 1933-34 issue.
o	Raised plinth in front with elongated hole for INTEGRAL draw bar
o	2-piece assembly, with OPEN TOP, exposed insides
o	Narrow, WIDE slot in back for older Ives style coupler
o	Mated to RED 1506 windup loco and also to Lionel 1511 (Vanderbilt style) windup loco with whistle/chugger.​
Note that the 1508 (Vanderbilt Style) windup loco with battery-powered headlight was only paired with the 1509T, Mickey Mouse Stoker tender.

Of course, there were other tinplate tenders beyond this list: the Mickey Stoker; the super-tiny 1502 tender mated to the Ives 1501 windup loco. But the series of FIVE tenders shown here all share the same basic design, albeit with the subtle differences noted above.

OK, guys ... critique me and shed some extra light!

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I recently acquired a book, by Richard T. Claus, about "Lionel Mechanical Trains 1931-1937, while I was at York. I found one very unique tender for the Mickey Mouse Stoker #1509T. The author was and still an avid collector of the Mechanical trains, and has done very extensive study of the same. He has a collection, that others can only Dream about, and is well versed with the many variations, from the Ives, Lionel-Ives, & Lionel during this time span. The typical "Stoker" tender with Mickey, had a totally RED body, which is what you will see in auctions, or other books. There was another issue of the same tender, which had a BLACK frame, and a RED body, with the lithographed journals on the sides. I never knew that this variation even existed, until I started looking through the pages of this book. When I get the chance I will have to post a photo of the typical RED 1509T, which I own. It was first one that was complete, and in what I would consider Very Good condition.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The examples in the first post are later issues, with 5” floor/frames, and date to 1933 & later. The early Ives tenders (although actually made by Lionel), had shorter 4” floors, from 1931-32. The “Winner” tenders were from 1932-33.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Is this the 4" tender style that you're referring to, Jerry? This same basic style also came in a red version tagged "1502 Ives R.R. Lines 1502" ...This tender dates to 1934, as the 1502T. The previous year had shiny wheels.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's that Ives version ...The pictured tender is from 1931-1932, and listed as 1502, from Ives. (Although Lionel actually owned the Ives line, after 1929.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The dimensions I listed were from the bottom frame (floor pan). The new book references just the body, so the 1502 is listed at 3 1/4”, for the sides, front to back. The others were 4 1/2” bodies, not counting the frame. The list shown as 3 piece, are considered “coal tenders”.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Mickey Mouse "Stoker" #1509T*

Here are the photos of the Mickey Mouse tender, which is hard to come by, in complete working condition.









































The three sided body measures 2 3/8", on a 4" frame. It was first issued in 1935, and there was another version that had the Red body, on a Black frame, also dated to 1935.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I like this thread. Good info added, Jerry!

Question:

Of the 5 tenders shown in the original post, I know that at least one type is referred to as 1661T, presumably first mated to the Ives 1661 loco. My question is which? I'd assume the first in the photos (with "Ives R.R. Lines" on the side, and a small loco pin hole). 

However, is the 4th tender in the photos (with "Lionel Lines" on the side, and an elongated loco pin hole) also known as a 1661T tender?

Can you clarify that for us, by chance, Jerry? The two are close, but not identical ... different painted side names; different loco pin holes. And yet, they share the same I.D. as 1661T ???

Thanks!

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*1661T tender*

TJ, The first tender was issued in 1933, and mated to the 1661 Lionel Ives loco. The lettering was Ives RR Lines,, to distinguish it was the 1661 tender. The 4th tender was issued in 1934, and used with the Lionel 1681 loco. My guess is the elongated hole for the loco pin, makes it the latter issue, and not to be confused with the 1933 issue. I did a small edit to the descriptions in the first post.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Jerry,

Uhh ... wait a minute.

I'm reading your post directly above, and then looking at your edits to my original post. Your info is not consistent between the two posts. Can you cross check, please?

You added "1507" to the first tender, which is not correct. I believe this is a 1661T (for the 1661 loco). So, year is 1933 or 1931? Read your edits carefully ... something doesn't mesh. Can you review / fix?

Thanks!

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I need to make a correction, that the top photo is in fact a 1661T, and has nothing to do with the 1507 number.

Ives was bought out by Lionel, late 1929, so theoretically anything made from 1930-1937 was actually a Lionel product. With regard to the tenders, you have to look at the timeline, and the ‘Branding’ of the names that are lithographed. The branding timeline is::

Ives R.R. Lines—1931-1932.

Lionel-Ives— 1933

Winner Lines—1931-1932

Lionel Lines—1934-1937

That puts the 1st pictured tender in 1933, the same year of the 1661 loco, being issued, with Lionel-Ives on the loco collector plate.

The 1661T, with just “Lionel Lines”in the panel, was used with the 1681E loco, from 1934. The 1661 & 1681 look similar, but the 1681 was the Lionel Lines 1934 issue.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Jerry. (I tweaked the edits just a bit ... cleaned up the wording a touch.)

So ... TWO different version of the 1661T ... different names on side, and different loco-pin holes.

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Looks like we can finally agree... I posted 1661T, in parts of some posts, to denote we were referring to the tender. I haven’t noticed any mention as a 1661T, in all the books I have searched. I would leave the descriptions as they are, so that it is a tender reference. There are the other Ives tenders, that were mates of the 1501, 1503, & 1506 windups.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jerry, I see that the 1661 loco and the 1661T (actually named as that) were listed in the 1932 Ives catalog ...

So ... "1661T" designation did exist. And issue year looks like one year earlier ... 1932, vs. 1933 ...

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I looked through my catalogs of Ives 1931&1932, and you are correct that the 1661E w/1661T, came out in 1932. I corrected the year in the first post, to reflect 1932. There were no Ives catalogs after 1932. The overlap for 1931-1932 was the Winner Lines, by Lionel. The 1932 Lionel catalog did not offer any 027 trains. The 1933 Lionel catalog listed the 1661E w/1661T tender, marked Lionel-Ives. The 1934 Lionel catalog listed the 1681E w/1661T tender with Lionel Lines markings.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Noooo ...

Where have you ever seen a tender marked "Lionel -Ives" on the side?!?!? Do tell! Keep your eye out for Sasquatch, too!

  

Kidding aside, I think the book reference is incorrect. Early issue was marked "Ives R.R. Lines", I believe, per the tender top of the stack in the photos.

Am I wrong?

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

TJ, Do you have a 1933 Lionel catalog?? On page 15, Outfit #’s 1051E & 1052E, shows the 1661 loco, followed by a 1661T coal car (Lionel’s description, not tender), branded/marked “LIONEL-IVES”. This only appears in 1933, for the one year. I think we can both agree that what is shown in a catalog, may not appear as the finished product. Does a Lionel-Ives labeled tender exist, and sold as a 1661T? Right now, I don’t know. The one common factor with your listed tenders, is they all shared the same 3 sided body. The frames maybe different, and the same goes to the color schemes and labeling, as differences.

I think the listing in your initial post, is correct, as it stands.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Just to add a little twist to this thread. Ives produced an 1815 loco, mated with the 1815T tender. The body and frame are the same design, as the list shown in the 1st post. The 1815/1815T combination, appears to be a very Rare combination. According to the Ives Society listings, they are from 1931-32 era. The labeling would read “Lionel R.R. Lines”. The photo of the 1815 loco, (from Ives Society web page, the tender would have been a 1507T or an 1815T. There are no examples of the 1815T to be found, to prove if it does exist.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

teledoc said:


> TJ, Do you have a 1933 Lionel catalog?? On page 15, Outfit #’s 1051E & 1052E, shows the 1661 loco, followed by a 1661T coal car (Lionel’s description, not tender), branded/marked “LIONEL-IVES”. This only appears in 1933, for the one year. I think we can both agree that what is shown in a catalog, may not appear as the finished product. Does a Lionel-Ives labeled tender exist, and sold as a 1661T? Right now, I don’t know. The one common factor with your listed tenders, is they all shared the same 3 sided body. The frames maybe different, and the same goes to the color schemes and labeling, as differences.
> 
> I think the listing in your initial post, is correct, as it stands.


Jerry, good catch on the 1933 catalog. 1661T tender shown in their graphic with "Lionel-Ives" printed on the side. However, as you've said, this was very much during the Ives-to-Lionel transition (with Ives fadeout), and I'd suspect that the tender graphics were a proposed marketing idea that never materialized. As far as I know or have seen, this "Lionel-Ives" tender never existed. If it did, it must be a very rare beast.

Graphic from the 1933 catalog below, as you note.

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If I ever see that tender marked Lionel-Ives, you can be guaranteed I’ll jump on it. That gap from 1931-1934 is the hardest to document. I’ll hit you with a question about the 1661E & 1681E locomotive bodies. How do you tell which is which, if you only have the body, minus the motor???


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

teledoc said:


> Just to add a little twist to this thread. Ives produced a 1815 loco, mated with the 1815T tender. The body and frame are the same design, as the list shown in the 1st post. The 1815/1815T combination, appears to be a very Rare combination. According to the Ives Society listings, they are from 1931-32 era. The labeling would read “Lionel R.R. Lines”. The photo of the 1815 loco, (from Ives Society web page, the tender would have been a 1507T or an 1815T. There are no examples of the 1815T to be found, to prove if it does exist.


Another good post.

My best guess is that the 1815T and the early-generation 1661T (with "Ives R.R. Lines" printed on the side) are essentially the same physical tender.

I'd suppose that Lionel management (and PR marketing) were morphing and merging the Ives numbering system into Lionel's numbering system (with whatever twisted logic they used).

You (Jerry) and I believe that the "elusive" 1815 loco is really just a black-with-red-frame electric-powered 1035 loco under a prior Ives numbering name. No physical differences between the locos. (Note, for reference, that the 1035 shares the same shell as the 1506 mechanical powered loco, but with different cutouts in the frame ... one type for electric motors, another type for mechanical motors.)

And, if that's true, then I'd believe that any 1815T tender would be exactly the same as the early-issue 1661T tender, both with "Ives R.R. Lines" printed on the side.

The Ives 1932 catalog shows an 1815 loco with an 1815T tender, with features as noted above. They were bundles in SETS 1802, 1803, and offered individually as a 1815/1815T mated pair.

By 1933, Ives (via Lionel and their "Winner Lines") had "renamed" the loco to 1035 (or 1015? same, but different paint scheme) Later in the '33 catalog, a 1815 loco is shown with graphics of nameplates (red circles below) depicting a loco that I believe was never produced, and a 1507 tender (by name), but the nameplate graphics for that again (red circle) show something that was likely never produced. As you and I have previously suggested, this is a case of the marketing PR guys getting ahead of the design/production guys. Stuff shown in the catalog that was never really produced. If a kid (or dad) did order a set, they likely ended up with the 1506 loco and the 1507 tender (marked "1507 ...") and never thought twice about it. As long as it ran on the track and went around the tree, everyone was happy!

Good theories? I suspect you and I agree on pretty much all counts here.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm cross-posting the same information here on this photo study thread that I just posted on the Tale of Two Brothers thread ...

Teledoc and I have been delving more into the lineage of the 1506 windup locos (various versions) and the 1015/1035 electric powered versions. We've come to learn that Ives (under Lionel ownership) first produced an electric powered version of this loco sold as "1815", and that it had "The Ives Corp / Irvington, NJ" printed on the collector plate. Later, Lionel would offer (under it's Winner Lines brand) the 1015/1035 electric powered locos ... essentially identical to the 1815, but now with "The Winner Toy Corp. / New York" printed on the collector plates.

Teledoc pinged an Ives historian buddy, and he sent the following photos of a TRUE Ives 1815 loco. Here, too, the loco is shown mated to the 1507 tender, in both freight and passenger sets.

Excellent research by Teledoc!

Outstanding question, though: TJ has an Ives motor (via collector plate tag) with 8-spoke wheels with NO drive rod crank. However, the motor from the 1815 Ives loco shown below DOES have drive rods. So ... what does TJ's motor come from? Another version of the 1815 without drive rods??? Or were there two versions of the 1815 ... one with drive rods, and one without???

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sorry TJ, but my brain just exploded!!!!!!!

Seriously though, I would guess it was just assembled that way, and just a one of a kind. The chance of it being another variation, is very slim, at best. The grouping, all had side rods. That one motor is 85+ years old, and was either made that way originally by mistake, or the previous owner replaced the Hubbed set of wheels, for a specific use.

Let’s leave it at that!!!!!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I finally hunted down a little 1502 Ives tender (circa 1931 / 1932) to go with my 1501 and 1503 locos. The eBay seller stupidly packed the thing in a tiny box surrounded by 2 or 3 sections of the NY Times ... squished all together. I was not a happy camper opening the box. But, it prompted me to disassemble things and do a top-surface repaint on the frame (leaving the litho on the sides). All back together, nicely, and mated to a long-lost friend!

TJ


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