# Bachmann unveiled bluetooth wireless trains at iHobby



## Gigasaurus

This weekend at iHobby in Chicago Bachmann unveiled their new line of bluetooth controlled wireless trains:

http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/ihobby2014/html5/index.html?page=1

Its called the E-Z App wireless train control system.

You just put them on any powered track, download the app onto your iDevice and run them. No configuration or setup.

They are not DCC, but can be run on a DCC layout as well (alongside your DCC trains).

They have an app for iPhones/iPads/iPods and will be putting out an Android app.

They are also creating a version of the board that can plug into 8-pin connectors (so you can run your older trains with bluetooth).

They will be available early 2015.


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## BeardedLumberjack

It's about time. I was wondering when model train manufacturers were gonna catch on to the whole wireless app/iPhone thing. mini RC helicopters have them. why not trains?

John


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## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus said:


> ...You just put them on any powered track...


Pulsed-DC could be a problem, and might require the throttle to be turned by all the way. Bob


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## CTValleyRR

Meh. I'm underwhelmed. I already have a wireless DCC system that works perfectly well. Show me thst this system provides measurable improvements over what I have and I'll be impressed, not before.

I have a smartphone, and it does a lot of nifty things, but I don't need it to ru my layout, too.


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## RT_Coker

CTValleyRR said:


> Meh. I'm underwhelmed. I already have a wireless DCC system that works perfectly well. Show me thst this system provides measurable improvements over what I have and I'll be impressed, not before.
> 
> I have a smartphone, and it does a lot of nifty things, but I don't need it to ru my layout, too.


Given the greatly improved communications of Bluetooth over DCC, it is only a matter of time.

I am glad to see something my grandkids could get excited about. I hope it brings more new people (and younger people) into the hobby, so that it will flourish for many years to come.
Bob


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## BeardedLumberjack

CTValleyRR said:


> Show me thst this system provides measurable improvements over what I have and I'll be impressed


I think the biggest difference would be the ability to run it on any layout - DC or DCC. and if you're one to bring your trains to a lot of different layouts and places, (like me) it's kind of a nice thing to have

John


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## Gigasaurus

Another thing I think will be fun about these trains is the potential for apps that can offer new ways to control and enjoy your train. Things like voice control, gesture control, and control over the web, in addition to simulated gameplay, downloadable sound enhancements and controller skins etc. There are a lot of interesting options when you connect your train to a smartphone or tablet.


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## fcwilt

CTValleyRR said:


> Meh. I'm underwhelmed. I already have a wireless DCC system that works perfectly well. Show me thst this system provides measurable improvements over what I have and I'll be impressed, not before.


One potential benefit of this approach (or other wireless) is higher bandwidth and bi-directional communication.

While there is a bi-directional "standard" for DCC it is not widely used.


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## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus said:


> Another thing I think will be fun about these trains is the potential for apps that can offer new ways to control and enjoy your train. Things like voice control, gesture control, and control over the web, in addition to simulated gameplay, downloadable sound enhancements and controller skins etc. There are a lot of interesting options when you connect your train to a smartphone or tablet.


Now you have gotten my hopes up that there will be a version that has an open-Bluetooth-interface, and maybe even the ability to download different firmware to the board (can be done through Bluetooth). And, while I am at it, an extra-plug for the unused-processor-ports, and maybe even a tachometer counter input. It would be nice to see an explosion of ideas at the locomotive as well as the iDevice.
Bob


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## blackz28

Now its gonna get interesting


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## CTValleyRR

I'm glad to see that most people seem to be excited about this. I predict that it will go the way of digital audio tape.

I can see why the OP would be interested in this, given that his website sells equipment for it.


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## Old_Hobo

Very interesting! Now I'm glad I did't invest heavily in DDC........if it works as intended, we could eventually see DDC go the way of the Dodo......

Let's see how this plays out.....


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## fcwilt

I don't see DCC disappearing anytime soon.

There have been other posts about a WiFi based system. When I asked the poster if Bluetooth had been considered the response was basically that Bluetooth wasn't up to the task.

The 1st gen. boards are rather large - not so much of a problem for new designs but tougher to retrofit.

Time will tell.


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## RT_Coker

CTValleyRR said:


> I can see why the OP would be interested in this, given that his website sells equipment for it.


My understanding is the OP has a financial interest in this, but is not yet selling (and my never) sell from the BlueRail Trains site.

And I have no financial interest in this.
Bob


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## tkruger

I am still using DC. I may be interested in this if it worked on Android (not buying an iPhone / iPod / iPad just for this). It would be nice to retrofit a few of my existing engines to run sound etc. I have no interest in buying any of the locomotives they showed. I have a large fleet of blue box engines including F units.


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## RT_Coker

fcwilt said:


> There have been other posts about a WiFi based system. When I asked the poster if Bluetooth had been considered the response was basically that Bluetooth wasn't up to the task.


Pretty vague!
Maybe Bluetooth was not “up to the task” because it costs so much less to implement than WiFi (when more costs also means more prophet).

For those that would like the “Fast Facts” about Bluetooth, look here: http://www.bluetooth.com/Pages/Fast-Facts.aspx
Or here in the “Specification” section for the older version: http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/...-data-communications-in-industrial-automation
Bob


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## DonR

BeardedLumberjack said:


> I think the biggest difference would be the ability to run it on any layout - DC or DCC. and if you're one to bring your trains to a lot of different layouts and places, (like me) it's kind of a nice thing to have
> 
> John


As a old fashioned type who still has a genuine Western Electric
rotary dial phone in use along with a flip Cell phone,
you may be surprised that I
agree that this development is likely to be very popular
with modelers, especially the younger guys and DC
modelers.

As John says, it makes it possible for an owner to run his
locos on almost any HO layout. That is going to make
it a boon for the guys who have yet to convert to DC.
They can run their favorite DC locos and add any new
loco with the Blue Ray decoder without making any
electrical changes. And for DCC modelers, the blue
ray phone app just becomes an additional loco controller,
as he continues to run his DCC locos.

A very interesting new product.

Don


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## fcwilt

RT_Coker said:


> Pretty vague!
> Maybe Bluetooth was not “up to the task” because it costs so much less to implement than WiFi (when more costs also means more prophet).
> Bob


I wasn't suggesting that I agreed with him - just passing along information.

BTW: prophet -> profit


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## RT_Coker

fcwilt said:


> I wasn't suggesting that I agreed with him - just passing along information.
> 
> BTW: prophet -> profit


Can’t say that I disagree with what was posted somewhere. At one time there probably were some very good reasons for not developing Direct-Bluetooth-Locomotive-Control. There will also be some good reasons for not using it. I think for one reason or other existing decoder manufacturers have missed the boat. 
Thanks for the spelling help! I am a poor speller even with the computer’s help.
Bob


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## fcwilt

RT_Coker said:


> At one time there probably were some very good reasons for not developing Direct-Bluetooth-Locomotive-Control.
> Bob


Both Bluetooth and DCC appeared in the early 1990s - so it wasn't simply a case of DCC being first out of the gate.


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## RT_Coker

For a look at how small Bluetooth can be try searching something like “Bluetooth earbuds” on one of the major shopping sites.
Bob


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## gator do 65

I for one, see it as what DCC was to DC year's ago! It's new and will be a great attraction for the next generation's interest in our hobby! Personally I'm sort of glad I haven't gone to DCC as I feel this will surpass the ability's of DCC very quick and with the cost of Bluetooth already low, app's are cheap/free etc....

Can't wait for the plug-in stuff!


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## RT_Coker

gator do 65 said:


> ... app's are cheap/free etc....


Cheep and free iDevice apps are usually associated with an open-interface(s) (one that is not proprietary). We have yet to see where Bachmann/BlueRail is going with this. Typically this kind of Bluetooth item would come with a free minimal app, and most of the business potential would be in the sophisticated apps that would follow.

Just for the record, I am highly biased toward an open-interface approach.
Bob


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## tkruger

One thing that would concern me about investing in this is that the controller is a device that has a very short lifespan before it is considered obsolete. If you convert now in 5 years will there be a comparable IPad to run the trains with? Will iOS version XYZ run the app to run the trains in 5 years? Does this require me to constantly upgrade something else to run the trains that I have run on DC without the need to upgrade for how many years?


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## Bone1977

Krug makes a good point. If this does not take off as Bachmann hopes what happens to those early investors? Android is a bit more forgiving in that they tend to be much more backwards friendly and you can do much more with them in terms of code and what apps you can run. I devices... not so much. Apple loves making their own products obsolete. I would be much more interested if there was a PC version as well, I have older machines I keep around for some simple tasks and have no issues getting a dedicated laptop or something for the purposes of controlling my stuff. A good cheap ultrabook would suffice.


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## fcwilt

I wouldn't "invest" in this technology until there were 3 or more vendors making compatible equipment.

I might buy a setup to experiment but that would be all.


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## DonR

I'm one who usually sits back and let others plow into
a new technolgy. So I'm not jumping in...I don't even
have a 'smart' phone...I still have an antique flip phone.
And I love my DCC layout.

However, this seems to be the very thing for the folks
who have a large DC layout yet to be converted to DCC.
The Bachmann blue ray decoders run on either 
DC or DCC. Thus one could control individual blue ray
locos while regular DC locos continue to run.

Don


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## fcwilt

DonR said:


> However, this seems to be the very thing for the folks
> who have a large DC layout yet to be converted to DCC.
> The Bachmann blue ray decoders run on either
> DC or DCC. Thus one could control individual blue ray
> locos while regular DC locos continue to run.
> 
> Don


Assuming the DC layout was setup for block control yes it appears you could.

You would still have to throw the block power switches I think.

I doubt that any such system would make sharing the same block with a DC loco a viable proposition. 

To stop the DC loco you turn the DC power down to zero. Right?

Then there would be no power for the "wireless" loco - unless it ran on batteries.


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## RT_Coker

I do not have an iDevice. I have a ~$100 refurbished Android tablet coming that had good user reviews. I intend to use it for direct-locomotive-control. I have a not-so-good Win32 program that runs on Bluetooth-PCs (had to buy the Bluetooth Dongle), called “BlueCommand” that I am using to control the firmware in the locomotive called “BlueTrain”. The jerry-rigged hardware is not finished, and has been a big problem for me. If I can ever get the hardware finished, I will have an open-source demonstration version in a steam engine. 

These Bluetooth locomotives should run on non-pulsed-DC, provided a minimum voltage (~7 volts?) is present. Pulsed-DC will probably need to be at full power. 
Bob


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## RT_Coker

Another interesting thing about Bluetooth technology is that it already has the capability to send sounds form the iDevice to a properly designed Bluetooth-locomotive in real time.

In fact you could probably hide a Bluetooth-ear-bud in a car and have a cheap way to create sounds from an iDevice.
Bob


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## Old_Hobo

I've always wondered if (and when) somebody will come up with model trains that run like real ones....with power, fuel (batteries?) and receiver/controller chip on-board.....no power in the track at all, the track's only purpose is to sit there for the trains to run on. Or power running thru the track only for constantly charging the on-board batteries......?

Then it would be easy to have wireless/Bluetooth control for each locomotive.....no block wiring, heck, no wiring at all!

In reality, I figure there's probably a dozen reasons why it can't be done...or someone would have done it by now.....

But think of all the head-on crashes you could have! :laugh:


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## BeardedLumberjack

Old_Hobo said:


> I've always wondered if (and when) somebody will come up with model trains that run like real ones....with power, fuel (batteries?) and receiver/controller chip on-board.....no power in the track at all, the track's only purpose is to sit there for the trains to run on. Or power running thru the track only for constantly charging the on-board batteries......?


I've been kinda wondering the same thing… only with an on board brake system somehow - not a simulated brake. That would be cool

John


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## RT_Coker

Old_Hobo said:


> I've always wondered if (and when) somebody will come up with model trains that run like real ones....with power, fuel (batteries?) and receiver/controller chip on-board.....no power in the track at all, the track's only purpose is to sit there for the trains to run on. Or power running thru the track only for constantly charging the on-board batteries......?
> 
> Then it would be easy to have wireless/Bluetooth control for each locomotive.....no block wiring, heck, no wiring at all!
> 
> In reality, I figure there's probably a dozen reasons why it can't be done...or someone would have done it by now.....
> 
> But think of all the head-on crashes you could have! :laugh:


If you can run 2 wires from the Bluetooth-Locomotive’s DCC track connections to the tender or to an empty trailing locomotive, all you have to do is put the (~12 volt) battery in the trailing unit and connect it up. Because DCC power is bipolar, you do not even have to get the polarity right. Just make sure that you are not on a power track (or disconnect the connections to the wheels)!
Bob


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## Gigasaurus

The trains just require constant power. You wouldn't need to have "blocks" anymore with these sorts of trains. Each loco operates independently and can have its own speed or direction.


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## Gigasaurus

These boards are Bluetooth4 (or BluetoothLE) which has become a very established standard in medical devices and the health field - so bluetoothLE is not going to go away. It differs from classic bluetooth in that it is designed to send tiny packets of data (very low bandwidth) so you can easily connect, disconnect, and connect to multiple. Classic bluetooth is designed for streaming audio.

iOS and Android 4.3 and above support (and _always will support_) BluetoothLE.

Bluetooth developers always release an iOS version first (because you only have to support 5 screen resolutions). For Android you have a good number of screen resolutions you need your interface to work on ( 5 samsung, LG, Nexus, Motorola ... ). It takes a few months work to test and support all those interfaces, so Android development always lags behind by a couple of months.

But you can be sure these BluetoothLE boards are not going to become obsolete soon, considering that our hospitals are FULL of BluetoothLE smart devices now. The health industry has committed to BLE, and its now spreading everywhere else.


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## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus said:


> Bluetooth4 (or BluetoothLE)


For what I have read about Bluetooth, this is the smart choose! This lowly experimenter has to use the old Bluetooth technology for now.
Bob


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## RT_Coker

**** This whole post is just one person’s opinion! ****

*** This whole post is just one person’s opinion! ***

Apparently nobody is openly posting about what is probably one of the most interesting aspects of this announcement. “...Wireless Train Control, patent pending”. I fully support the right for someone(s) to protect their investment in (and profit from) a new and novel idea(s) that are patentable.

But the parse “patent pending” seriously discourages others form working to provide similar capabilities until they can identify and assess the pending patent(s). It is an unknown until its number(s) are disclosed. Which in the USA, means that they typically have to wait until the item sells?

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this, as long as the process is not abused for the purpose of delaying competition. A patent can be pending even if it is not really a patentable idea, or the pending patent can be for a less-than-significant part of the item. I have no reason to believe this is the case. However, I am asking the Hobby community to hold Bachmann/BlueRail accountable if this is turns out to be case in your individual opinion.

*** This whole post is just one person’s opinion! ***
Bob


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## fcwilt

Patent certainly can serve a useful purpose.

Unfortunately the US Patent Office does seem to bother to research prior art any longer. 

Just approve the patent and let the lawsuits begin.


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## Ron McF

The Bachmann/BlueRailTrains system uses bluetooth for communication between the smart device and the control board, so the best that they could protect would be the proprietary application itself. That would not preclude other manufacturers from developing their own proprietary systems, or from someone such as NMRA developing a 'standard' much as it did with DCC when the various DCC manufacturers looked like taking their own paths.

I see this offering great benefits for people with smaller layouts, and even for beginners, who'd like the advantages of DCC without the upfront cost of a full-blown DCC system. For example, a manufacturer such as Bachmann could sell beginners' sets with locos equipped with a harness socket, to people who want to build that first layout and use their smart device to control it rather than mess around with block wiring or low cost (poor quality) transformer/controllers.

Regards,
Ron


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## CTValleyRR

Interesting discussion, but probably not for the reasons most would expect.

Now granted, for me, this thread got off on the wrong foot because the OP has a financial interest (and failed to disclose it). Also the fact that he sort of spammed it around a couple of other message boards. Notice how he's not participating... just throw the chicken into the gator pen and watch the fun.

I've seen a lot of "what ifs" and "wouldn't it be cool ifs", but no real reason for me to get interested. The only thing that's made sense to me has been the portability argument, and since I don't belong to a club, it doesn't hold any advantages. For me, I just don't see any advantages over my current wireless setup. Why would I want sounds to come from my handheld device when they already, much more realistically, come from the loco. Why would I want to wave my arms like a monkey, argue with imperfect voice recognition technology, or deal with the vagaries of a toch screen when I already have a cab that reponds perfectly to my every input. Do I want to pantomime moving a throttle or throwing a switch? No, I want to sit in my bar stool, poke buttons and turn dials to control my locos, and press buttons on my control panel to route trains like the lazy old fart I am.

I also agree that for this to really grab hold, it needs to be open source and competitive. A patent will stifle innovation and make it hard to break in against the established technology.

So, I'll let you starry-eyed dreamers be the early adopters, and I'll stick with DCC. And for those of you yammering about tje permanence of Bluetooth, well, 15 years ago we were well on the way to a PC on every desk and in every home. Now even laptops are endangered by the waves of smartphones and tablets. And PCs? Well, we still need doorstops.


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## RT_Coker

CTValleyRR said:


> ...Notice how he's not participating... just throw the chicken into the gator pen and watch the fun. ...


Look again, the OP is posting! 
I would not expect him to respond without taking time to carefully think things through and do the necessary coordination.
Bob


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## Ron McF

.....


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## CTValleyRR

RT_Coker said:


> Look again, the OP is posting!
> I would not expect him to respond without taking time to carefully think things through and do the necessary coordination.
> Bob


You're right... I was confusing this with another set of message boards.

I would hope he would not respond with an answer that is not thought out and coordinated... which leads back to the question: is he excited about the concept or excited about the business opportunity?


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## RT_Coker

CTValleyRR said:


> ... is he excited about the concept or excited about the business opportunity?


Maybe a less aggressive-personal tone will help the OP to be more inclined to post more responses.
Bob


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## Old_Hobo

When did "General Model Train Discussion" turn into "Union Station"? :laugh:


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## DonR

My enthusiasm is somewhat less than my earlier post. I've been using
DCC so long that I just didn't think straight about how the 
voltage varies up and down, and at times reverse polarity
on a DC layout.

That would make the Bluetooth unit much less useful for those who have yet
to convert to DCC unless, as suggested, you power the
blue tooth loco with a battery. That battery would have to
have the juice, tho, to run not just the blue tooth decoder
but also the loco's motor, lights and sound. Now it's possible
that the battery could take power from the DC or DCC track and
charge itself through some special circuit as the loco runs.

Don


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## RT_Coker

Don,
The only two restrictions on running these on DC should be:
1)	Pulsed & Non-pulsed-DC: Minimum power will probably have to be >= ~7 volts.
2)	Pulsed-DC: TBD (The throttle will probably need to be turned up all the way up.)

Polarity should not matter, just like a dual-mode DCC decoder running on DC.
The best DC setup for running these will probably be one with a dual-DC-throttle with its typical bock control switches.
Bob


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## Ron McF

DonR said:


> That would make the Bluetooth unit much less useful for those who have yet to convert to DCC


I do not agree. Well, not entirely, anyway.

Someone who already has a large DC/block control layout may be faced with having to convert a large number of locos, and acquiring a bunch of smart devices to control them. Until we see the costs, it's not possible to say whether it would be cheaper to just invest in a wireless DCC system instead. Keep in mind however that smart phones are already cheaper than wireless DCC throttles, and can even be had for free. (I have two from friends who've upgraded and gave me their old ones.)

*On the other hand,* consider the novices who start with a simple oval and single train and want to expand their layout. Sooner or later they will have to make the choice between DC/block control or DCC. The forums regularly contain questions from people faced with that dilemma.

Bluetooth systems like this will give them a third choice for expansion that avoids the complexity of both systems. There's no need to think about block boundaries, or to spend a small fortune on control panel switches. And they can obtain many of the advantages of DCC without the upfront cost. If their locos came with a wiring harness (as Bachmann appears to be contemplating) then they will also have a very easy upgrade path to DCC should they eventually decide to go in that direction. Thanks to WiThrottle, even their smart device can continue to be used on the layout.

Personally, I think this is potentially one of the best things to happen to model railroading for a long time. 

Regards,
Ron


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## CTValleyRR

RT_Coker said:


> Maybe a less aggressive-personal tone will help the OP to be more inclined to post more responses.
> Bob


Right. Because we wouldn't want to push back against overly enthusiastic group think, nor should we dare question anyone's motives. After all, no one would dream of using an Internet forum to subtly promote his business.

I'm done now. Enjoy the discussion.


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## Ron McF

CTValleyRR said:


> I'm done now.


We can only hope!

You've told us that as you already have a wireless DCC system, you see no advantage in this for you. In itself, that's a fair comment that could have warranted a single post, especially if you had posed the question "What can it do for me?". 

But then you went on in multiple posts to attack the OP and belittle those who do find it interesting, or see it as offering benefits to others.

Yes, the OP appears to have a financial interest in this development, and it would have been correct to have stated it up front. But he didn't try to hide that fact (just look at his profile), and frankly, I don't care. His post was not an exhortation for us to buy this product, but simply an announcement that it will soon be available. Most of the subsequent discussion was about bluetooth train control in general, not the particular implementation.

Okay - you've told us that you can see no advantages _*for you*_ with bluetooth train control. Now move along, unless you have something ON TOPIC to contribute to the discussion.


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## RT_Coker

Ron McF said:


> The Bachmann/BlueRailTrains system uses bluetooth for communication between the smart device and the control board, so the best that they could protect would be the proprietary application itself. That would not preclude other manufacturers from developing their own proprietary systems, or from someone such as NMRA developing a 'standard' much as it did with DCC when the various DCC manufacturers looked like taking their own paths.
> ...
> Ron


Ron,
I believe your assessment is probably correct.

However, I have communicated with one DCC-decoder-designer-or-manufacturer and they are concerned about possible “patent pending” issues! (The added expense of researching and resolving such issues can be significant.)

Is there a DCC-decoder-designer-or-manufacturer that is possibly interested in producing open-source Direct-Bluetooth-Locomotive-Control-Hardware? I would like to hear from you!

Is either NMRA, JMRI, or ... interested in open-source Direct-Bluetooth-Locomotive-Control? I (and maybe we) would like to hear from you!

I have also started privately researching Bachmann past used of “patent pending” on their DCC products (as this relates to the current use of “patent pending”).
Bob


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## Ron McF

Hi Bob. I will PM you.


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## gator do 65

*Just another form*

I've looked at what Bachmann is going to be offering and all I see is a different form of DCC. With the only difference being the method of delivering commands, one is wired and one is not! Beyond that they will do the same thing's!

With that said, there is one thing still unknown. What form of power, straight DC, DCC, etc.? I know there was comment about being able to hop from layout to layout, but what is the base power supply?

Just think about this, if the NMRA does sets standards for this and requires it to plug into the 8 pin connector. Would this not be a true dual mode decoder? I can also see a JMRI type interface being very possible. JMHO!


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## Gigasaurus

I am the original poster, and I guess I should apologize for not stating I am involved in the project when I posted the link. I didn't think to do that - I'll know better next time. I cannot comment directly on the Bachmann project (I'll leave that up to Bachmann) but I am happy to discuss the boards we've been working on at BlueRail Trains and talk about the technology in general.

We're actually just a small group of guys very passionate about trains, with a background in hardware/software development in toys, robotics, and software/game development. 

Our BlueRail boards require constant power, so it doesn't matter if the track is dcc or dc. Bob Coker (who has an awesome blog you should check out http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/blog.php?28125-RT_Coker) mentioned pulse-DC - so I'm checking on how our boards handle that now. If you are on a standard DC track, turn the transformer all the way up (and leave it there).

The spirit of BlueRail was to create an affordable, easy-to-use, highly-functional circuitboard class that works with the latest technology. Compatibility is important, so we made sure it works whether you have dcc or an old school train set. It is not intended to replace DCC - just another option you can use with it (or elsewhere).

Our BlueRail boards use bluetooth smart (or bluetooth "low energy") which is NOT the same bluetooth used in earpieces, speakers, or cars (with a typical 20-30 ft range). Bluetooth Smart is found in the Apple Watch, Ideal Total Control Racing, NIKE wearables and has a much greater range and is designed to handle multiple connections simultaneously.

Apple and Android (as of 4.3) both fully support Bluetooth Smart, and it is the standard in the health industry, so this isn't a fleeting technology (that will go away in a few years).

I know model railroading's faithful fanbase (like me) is made up of DCC users, and we're very conscious of that and have made great effort to ensure our BlueRail boards are compatible with that world, and not in anyway an attempt to replace that technology.


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## DonR

Gigasaurus said:


> I am the original poster, and I guess I should apologize for not stating I am involved in the project when I posted the link. I didn't think to do that - I'll know better next time. I cannot comment directly on the Bachmann project (I'll leave that up to Bachmann) but I am happy to discuss the boards we've been working on at BlueRail Trains and talk about the technology in general.
> 
> We're actually just a small group of guys very passionate about trains, with a background in hardware/software development in toys, robotics, and software/game development.
> 
> Our BlueRail boards require constant power, so it doesn't matter if the track is dcc or dc. Bob Coker (who has an awesome blog you should check out http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/blog.php?28125-RT_Coker) mentioned pulse-DC - so I'm checking on how our boards handle that now. If you are on a standard DC track, turn the transformer all the way up (and leave it there).
> 
> The spirit of BlueRail was to create an affordable, easy-to-use, highly-functional circuitboard class that works with the latest technology. Compatibility is important, so we made sure it works whether you have dcc or an old school train set. It is not intended to replace DCC - just another option you can use with it (or elsewhere).
> 
> Our BlueRail boards use bluetooth smart (or bluetooth "low energy") which is NOT the same bluetooth used in earpieces, speakers, or cars (with a typical 20-30 ft range). Bluetooth Smart is found in the Apple Watch, Ideal Total Control Racing, NIKE wearables and has a much greater range and is designed to handle multiple connections simultaneously.
> 
> Apple and Android (as of 4.3) both fully support Bluetooth Smart, and it is the standard in the health industry, so this isn't a fleeting technology (that will go away in a few years).
> 
> I know model railroading's faithful fanbase (like me) is made up of DCC users, and we're very conscious of that and have made great effort to ensure our BlueRail boards are compatible with that world, and not in anyway an attempt to replace that technology.


Possible battery power has been mentioned so that the Bluerail loco can actually
operate alongside operating DC locomotives on a DC layout and be unaffected by
the varied DC track voltages and and polarity. I realize the battery would need to
be substantial to power the decoder and the motor but thought there could be
a 'recharging' capability thru wheel power pickup. As one of the developers and
thus knowledgeable about it's capabilities what say ye?

Don


----------



## Gigasaurus

At BlueRail we have definitely discussed and made plans for variations with both super capacitors and batteries. These can also be useful in outdoor Garden trains or situations where power is undependable.


----------



## James Stoker

I did not slog through all of the posts on this thread, but from what I read I did not see mention of Layout IoE (Internet of Everything), which is a new company producing WiFi control for model locomotives, including a fancy battery setup that can charge from any rail power source. They have produced the first units, and the rest of the other boards are forthcoming soon. You can check out their site by clicking here.










P.S: The Layout IoE developer has a thread going on MRF. You can ask him directly about anything you are curious about. Click here to go to the Layout IoE thread on MRF


----------



## RT_Coker

James Stoker said:


> I did not slog through all of the posts on this thread, but from what I read I did not see mention of Layout IoE (Internet of Everything), which is a new company producing WiFi control for model locomotives, including a fancy battery setup that can charge from any rail power source. They have produced the first units, and the rest of the other boards are forthcoming soon. You can check out their site by clicking here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S: The Layout IoE developer has a thread going on MRF. You can ask him directly about anything you are curious about. Click here to go to the Layout IoE thread on MRF


I am glad that another similar approach is so far along. 

Given the differences between WiFi and Bluetooth, I am going to suggest that you ASAP start a new tread to discuss this approach and that posters use it to discuss the WiFi approach. 

May be someone will start a tread on comparing the two approaches. 

To have both approaches discussed on the same thread is going end up being very confusing.

Thank You!
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus said:


> ... I know model railroading's faithful fanbase (like me) ...


Gigasaurus,
Because it is fairly easy to create a factious “identity” on a web site and in forums, it would be helpful if you would connect with a hobby-poster you trust and who is better known in the hobby, and then have him/her post here to that effect. 
Or some other way you choose.

(Not me, I have been too involved in this thread.) 
(This is in no way meant to be a reflection on Gigasaurus!) 
Thank You!
Bob


----------



## kcjones

I'm a techie by nature, and will observe this with interest. But I already control my entire layout wirelessly with tablets and smartphones via jmri...including not just trains, but turnouts, routes, cameras in hidden staging, etc. Granted it still eventually goes through wires to the loco from my command station. But the net effect is pretty much the same. I hit an icon on my phone, pick a loco, and away we go...


----------



## kcjones

What I'd be much more interested in would be standard DCC sound decoders that used Bluetooth to send audio out, e.g. to an under-layout subwoofer, so I can augment the higher frequency, directional sound from the loco with low frequency non-directional "rumble" through the sub. Gimme that Bachmann (or whomever) and I'll be right on it!


----------



## RT_Coker

kcjones said:


> I'm a techie by nature, and will observe this with interest. But I already control my entire layout wirelessly with tablets and smartphones via jmri...including not just trains, but turnouts, routes, cameras in hidden staging, etc. Granted it still eventually goes through wires to the loco from my command station. But the net effect is pretty much the same. I hit an icon on my phone, pick a loco, and away we go...


Yes, But the thing Bluetooth (or WiFi) will do that DCC can’t is provide (~140 times) more information bandwidth & reliable 2 way communications to the locomotive. For one simple example, how about simply selecting your on locomotive sounds on the iDevice (or PC) for real-time play on the locomotive. Even ones you have recorded elsewhere.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

kcjones said:


> What I'd be much more interested in would be standard DCC sound decoders that used Bluetooth to send audio out, e.g. to an under-layout subwoofer, so I can augment the higher frequency, directional sound from the loco with low frequency non-directional "rumble" through the sub. Gimme that Bachmann (or whomever) and I'll be right on it!


Great Idea! And the inexpensive Bluetooth units to do this already exist.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

I am up late at night; can’t sleep! Frankly I am tired of trying to encourage an alternate OPEN-SOURCE Bluetooth approach that I believe would be a benefit to the entire hobby. OK, maybe a few manufactures would lose some (or all) of their part of the pie (which will probable happen anyway); but the pie can be made much larger and last a lot longer. If the existing powers that be do nothing there is certainly nothing more that I can do to help. 

Much thanks to the few that are listening and recognize that new and significantly different locomotive(s) are coming down the track.
Bob


----------



## kcjones

RT_Coker said:


> Yes, But the thing Bluetooth (or WiFi) will do that DCC can’t is provide (~140 times) more information bandwidth & reliable 2 way communications to the locomotive. For one simple example, how about simply selecting your on locomotive sounds on the iDevice (or PC) for real-time play on the locomotive. Even ones you have recorded elsewhere.
> Bob


Yes, the capabilities are intriguing. For myself it is such things as you mention that would push me toward it, not just "wireless app version of dcc" to operate a loco. And the portability thing is okay, though my roster doesn't travel anyway. 

But it's... 20+ years since the practical advent of dcc as a standard, and more like 30 since Lenz started it as a propriety initiative. And I'm guessing it's still solidly under 50% adoption rate overall, just based on how much board chatter is about dc, folks who say they won't switch, folks planning to switch eventually, etc.

So I myself tend to be an early adopter. I'd probably try out one of these things early-ish... i.e. once they're available as 8 pin plug ins suitable for one of my steamers and not stupid expensive. But it would probably be a matter of years to a decade before I switched over my whole roster, even if I like it. Heck, I've still got a few locos without dcc in them! And that's me being a tech geek who really likes running by wire off my tablet, etc. 

So basically in about 20 years, we can have this same discussion: someone will announce pint-sized fusion reactors for locos or something, and then everyone can say "but I haven't even finished switching to Bluetooth yet! " etc.

And I bet you a few will still say "Nah. DC works fine for me. "


----------



## kcjones

RT_Coker said:


> Great Idea! And the inexpensive Bluetooth units to do this already exist.
> Bob


I wish i were just a bit more savvy about electronics then, 'cuz if be trying to whip one up.


----------



## kcjones

RT_Coker said:


> I am up late at night; can’t sleep! Frankly I am tired of trying to encourage an alternate OPEN-SOURCE Bluetooth approach that I believe would be a benefit to the entire hobby. OK, maybe a few manufactures would lose some (or all) of their part of the pie (which will probable happen anyway); but the pie can be made much larger and last a lot longer. If the existing powers that be do nothing there is certainly nothing more that I can do to help.
> 
> Much thanks to the few that are listening and recognize that new and significantly different locomotive(s) are coming down the track.
> Bob


Fellow insomniac here... 

As to open source bt advocacy, keep at it. I'm an open source fan myself. I use jmri to run my pike, OpenOffice to do docs and spreadsheets, and my son is learning to code by creating minecraft mods.


----------



## RT_Coker

RT_Coker said:


> Gigasaurus,
> Because it is fairly easy to create a factious “identity” on a web site and in forums, it would be helpful if you would connect with a hobby-poster you trust and who is better known in the hobby, and then have him/her post here to that effect.
> Or some other way you choose.
> 
> (Not me, I have been too involved in this thread.)
> (This is in no way meant to be a reflection on Gigasaurus!)
> Thank You!
> Bob


Here is another idea have someone you know take the locomotive (or similar one) to a train club in San Diego and show it to some of the members and let one of them take and post a YouTube video.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

kcjones said:


> Fellow insomniac here...
> 
> As to open source bt advocacy, keep at it. I'm an open source fan myself. I use jmri to run my pike, OpenOffice to do docs and spreadsheets, and my son is learning to code by creating minecraft mods.


Thanks, but no thanks!
Been banging my head against a reinforced concrete wall for almost a year now (see here: http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine...th-Locomotive-Transceiver&highlight=Bluetooth).
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

*Here is a door that Bluetooth-Locomotives open:*

“Nokia has focused on and promoted the Nokia High Accuracy Indoor Positioning (HAIP) Solution, using a modified new generation, low energy feature of the Bluetooth® 4.0 specification, that allows for an accuracy of one metre. The technology can also be extended to an accuracy of 20cm with additional changes.” (BIG $ are going into this technology!)

Detailed information here: http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/08/23/new-alliance-helps-you-find-needle-in-a-haystack/

And Check out Bluetooth IBeacons here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBeacon

When 20cm accuracy becomes available, and a track layout with strategically placed fixed-iBeacons that is known to your iDevice (or PC) the Bluetooth-Locomotive could send information to you iDevice that would allow the iDevice to calculate its location on the track to at least 8 inches. 

Even with 1 meter accuracy, by just placing a single iBeacon at a strategic location, the Bluetooth-Locomotive could tell the iDevice that is had just pasted the location within accuracy of a few inches (the point is identified by the power received from the iBeacon going form decreasing to increasing).

And if the IBeacons are placed in the rolling stock (or some of it), ... Dream a little, it can be fun.

I guess that in promoting Bluetooth-Locomotives, I am effectively promoting Bachmann products. [Sometimes you just have to live with the bad to get to good.] 
Bob


----------



## SRV1

I just unboxed a RailPro system today by Ring Engineering. I don't have an Iphone or Ipad but even if I did, I'd still much rather use the RailPro system. The controller is friggin awesome. Color touch screen, wireless with a knob to adjust everything. So user friendly.

Everything they make communicates wirelessly between each other. You can line up 2, 5, 10, 20+ locos in a consist from 20 different manufacturers (all different motors, doesn't matter) select the lead and trailing on the screen and pick how each one is oriented and you're done. It will automatically split the load between however many engines you consist together. Forget speed matching. It can also be run on any layout that has power going to the rails. 

The conveniently sized and designed power supply detects faults and disconnects power itself. If you have a short, it will stay off until the short is removed, then will turn back on. The LM2S sound boards that plug in are very small. The controller will also control accessories and switches wirelessly. I really don't know how it could become any more user friendly than this system. 

The HC2 controller is rechargeable and you download updates from the web including actual photos of your locos to use on screen. Customize sounds, download whatever horn you want.

I hate to be the wet blanket but Apple will take 10 years to discover what these guys are offering right now. I have this system right now. A friend of mine had it two years ago. 

I'd say in 5 years people won't want to deal with DCC anymore. It's just not as user friendly and is actually more finicky than direct wireless communication. The new 2nd generation RailPro sound boards have huge storage space in a smaller package with unbelievable customization options and I'm sure subsequent versions will have even more. 

For modern running with consists, this is hands down the way to go. It's just awesome. I strongly urge everyone to check out this review. (Keep in mind this review is 2 years old! The HC-2 is out now.) He shows how easy it is to do a 6 engine consist towards the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGx7lQC2-0Y


----------



## fcwilt

I'm glad you are happy with the system. Good luck.


----------



## RT_Coker

SRV1 said:


> I just unboxed a RailPro system today by Ring Engineering. I don't have an Iphone or Ipad but even if I did, I'd still much rather use the RailPro system. The controller is friggin awesome. Color touch screen, wireless with a knob to adjust everything. So user friendly.
> 
> Everything they make communicates wirelessly between each other. You can line up 2, 5, 10, 20+ locos in a consist from 20 different manufacturers (all different motors, doesn't matter) select the lead and trailing on the screen and pick how each one is oriented and you're done. It will automatically split the load between however many engines you consist together. Forget speed matching. It can also be run on any layout that has power going to the rails.
> 
> The conveniently sized and designed power supply detects faults and disconnects power itself. If you have a short, it will stay off until the short is removed, then will turn back on. The LM2S sound boards that plug in are very small. The controller will also control accessories and switches wirelessly. I really don't know how it could become any more user friendly than this system.
> 
> The HC2 controller is rechargeable and you download updates from the web including actual photos of your locos to use on screen. Customize sounds, download whatever horn you want.
> 
> I hate to be the wet blanket but Apple will take 10 years to discover what these guys are offering right now. I have this system right now. A friend of mine had it two years ago.
> 
> I'd say in 5 years people won't want to deal with DCC anymore. It's just not as user friendly and is actually more finicky than direct wireless communication. The new 2nd generation RailPro sound boards have huge storage space in a smaller package with unbelievable customization options and I'm sure subsequent versions will have even more.
> 
> For modern running with consists, this is hands down the way to go. It's just awesome. I strongly urge everyone to check out this review. (Keep in mind this review is 2 years old! The HC-2 is out now.) He shows how easy it is to do a 6 engine consist towards the end.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGx7lQC2-0Y


They are definitely moving the hobby forward, and I personally commend them! Maybe they will offer a Bluetooth version with an open interface in the future? But that is hard to do when you can sell $300 train controllers. My $100 iDevice just arrived and, it has a 10” screen, and it is capable of communicating with open-source JMRI. 

[Another advantage of Bluetooth, many different controllers and controller applications for the many different users.] 
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

RT_Coker said:


> “Nokia has focused on and promoted the Nokia High Accuracy Indoor Positioning (HAIP) Solution, using a modified new generation, low energy feature of the Bluetooth® 4.0 specification, that allows for an accuracy of one metre. The technology can also be extended to an accuracy of 20cm with additional changes.” (BIG $ are going into this technology!)
> 
> Detailed information here: http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/08/23/new-alliance-helps-you-find-needle-in-a-haystack/
> 
> And Check out Bluetooth IBeacons here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBeacon
> 
> When 20cm accuracy becomes available, and a track layout with strategically placed fixed-iBeacons that is known to your iDevice (or PC) the Bluetooth-Locomotive could send information to you iDevice that would allow the iDevice to calculate its location on the track to at least 8 inches.
> 
> Even with 1 meter accuracy, by just placing a single iBeacon at a strategic location, the Bluetooth-Locomotive could tell the iDevice that is had just pasted the location within accuracy of a few inches (the point is identified by the power received from the iBeacon going form decreasing to increasing).
> 
> And if the IBeacons are placed in the rolling stock (or some of it), ... Dream a little, it can be fun.
> 
> I guess that in promoting Bluetooth-Locomotives, I am effectively promoting Bachmann products. [Sometimes you just have to live with the bad to get to good.]
> Bob


Or you could do what I am in the process of doing. Put a tachometer on the motor and a way of stopping the locomotive at known-spots. Now when the locomotive reports that it is stopped at a known-spot you know where it is within ~1 scale-foot, and as it reports distance travelled in scale-feet you know where it is on the layout. [The iDevice (or PC) also knows the turn-out positions.] 
[Just one of the advantage of a “smart” Bluetooth-Locomotive.]
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Anybody know what Bachmann/BlueRail actually showed at 2014-iHobby-Chicago? My web searches do not turn up anything except Bachmann’s brochure.

And the currently “extensive” (that is 4 short posts) discussion on Bachmann’s USA forum.

And looks like MR Insider will be showing something this week. Found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AExd-HQZUIE
[I guess I am more interested in Bluetooth than Bachmann or BlueRail, one of them should be providing this information!]
Bob


----------



## DonR

Bob

With that 'GPS like' capability all sorts of things could happen. Activating
crossing signals, control panel train tracking, derail free turnout control,
signal control, and collision avoidance. The mind boggles at what 
today's high tech guys can do.

Don


----------



## RT_Coker

**** We Users Need To Be Watchful! ****

Don, 
The powers that be (existing manufactures and open-sources) are (in my option) trying to hold the tied back. I would probably be doing the same thing in their position. 

My concern is that when the dike finally gives way the unaware are subject to being washed away in the flood. 
I do not believe anybody knows when this will happen for sure or when it will happen.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus said:


> Our BlueRail boards use bluetooth smart (or bluetooth "low energy") which is NOT the same bluetooth used in earpieces, speakers, or cars (with a typical 20-30 ft range).


I have no experience with “bluetooth used in earpieces, speakers, or cars”, so I know nothing about their range. 

My loop-back tests with the old (2.3) Bluetooth technology in the >$10 device I am using, were good to 40 feet before I ran out of room! And the signal-strength at 40 feet indicated that it would go a good bit further!
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

**** Attention Sound Decoder Manufactures ****

There is a bit more information on the Bachmann announcement here: http://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/new-products/2014/10/2014-ihobby-expo-show-report
“Sounds are broadcast through Bluetooth-supported smart device.” 

Is that that “broadcast” through the air or “broadcast” through RF (Bluetooth to the Bluetooth-Locomotive, a very easy thing to do)? Hopefully “Model Railroader” or somebody will provide more information soon?

Any sound decoder manufactures care to comment?
Bob


----------



## DonR

Bob

I scanned and clicked all over that MR link and could find
only a reference in a video that I could not see since I'm
not a MR subscriber. Did I miss something?

Don


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Somehow, sounds coming from my phone and not the train doesn't sound all that appealing.


----------



## RT_Coker

DonR said:


> Bob
> 
> I scanned and clicked all over that MR link and could find
> only a reference in a video that I could not see since I'm
> not a MR subscriber. Did I miss something?
> 
> Don


For the a prior post here: Found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AExd-HQZUIE

It is real quick! Stop the video at about 33 seconds.

Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Somehow, sounds coming from my phone and not the train doesn't sound all that appealing.


I agree John! I think they may envision this as a new generation thing (head-phones-on, face in the iDevice doing all kinds of things, and basically ignoring everybody around them).

However, if the sound is on the iDevice, then a Bluetooth-Speaker can be put in a box car or disguised on a flat car. The iDevice connected (Bluetooth-paired) to it, and the sounds moved down to the train. Assuming their ?non?-open-interface-app(s) allow it.

:laugh:I have seen posts about being annoyed by loud train sounds at clubs. Maybe they can take up a collection and get one with ear-phones for the offending party?:laugh:
Bob


----------



## kcjones

Well again, my main gripe with sound is the tinny nature of tiny speaker sound. Irrelevant if it's coming from a tender, sound car, or idevice. My 'killer app' for Bluetooth is one that lets me send sound to a Bluetooth connected subwoofer to fill in the low frequencies, which aren't directional anyway, while leaving high end in the loco for directional sense. I've actually been digging about digikey and such for a bt micro transmitter i can wire to a standard sound decoder as an experiment.


----------



## RT_Coker

kcjones said:


> Well again, my main gripe with sound is the tinny nature of tiny speaker sound. Irrelevant if it's coming from a tender, sound car, or idevice. My 'killer app' for Bluetooth is one that lets me send sound to a Bluetooth connected subwoofer to fill in the low frequencies, which aren't directional anyway, while leaving high end in the loco for directional sense. I've actually been digging about digikey and such for a bt micro transmitter i can wire to a standard sound decoder as an experiment.


Here is one way to get under layout bass.
Use this (or something like it): http://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics®-T...3061142&sr=8-1&keywords=bluetooth+transmitter.

Connect it to the speaker wires of the sound-decoder through a large resistor (~~10Kohms), and get a bass Bluetooth-speaker.

You can even connect the charging cable to +5 volts from the decoder.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

The following 6 October information from someone call “gigasaurus” can be seen here: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/238725/2663353.aspx
****************
The Bluetooth4 spec supports an unlimited number of connections. If there is any limitation it comes from the iPhone itself. Apple does not document that there is any limit in iOS, but in practice, people have connected to 20 bluetooth accessories at the same time. 

Available locos appear on your app screen - you touch the one(s) you want to connect to, and control them. It is much simpler than regular bluetooth (where you have to "pair" your phone to something)
*****************

The following information is from a page called “Video: IHobby Expo 2014 special report”, here: http://mrr.trains.com/sitecore/content/home/articles/2014/10/video-ihobby-expo-2014-special-report
*****************
Bachmann Trains' Jack Lynch (right) demonstrates the firm's new E-Z App wireless train control for Model Railroader associate editor Cody Grivno.
*****************
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus,

According to the manufacture’s web site, my recently purchased 10” tablet only as up to “Bluetooth V3.0+EDR +A2DP”. So for people who cannot afford or do not want to purchase a Bluetooth V4.x, it will take more than just moving the Bachmann/BlueRail app from Bluetooth V4.x on Apple iDevices to Android iDevices!

The official list of Bluetooth 4.x consumer products is here: http://www.bluetooth.com/Pages/Bluetooth-Smart-Devices-List.aspx.

Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

BlueRail with sounds here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPTdrusp1-MXxZESyaARnig

My best guess is the sound is coming from the iDevice. I believe I see a speaker location without the speaker.
Bob


----------



## DonR

Bob

Why wouldn't BlueRail have the ability to power loco on board
speakers as does DCC decoders?

Don


----------



## SRV1

What happens when youre running trains and you get a phone call? Does everything stop? Ill stick with RailPro.


----------



## RT_Coker

DonR said:


> Bob
> 
> Why wouldn't BlueRail have the ability to power loco on board
> speakers as does DCC decoders?
> 
> Don


Don,
No, reason that I know about. With Bluetooth capabilities is makes more sense to create the sounds on the iDevice and send them to the train than to create them on the train.
Bob


----------



## fcwilt

SRV1 said:


> What happens when youre running trains and you get a phone call? Does everything stop? Ill stick with RailPro.


Why would you think that could even happen????


----------



## SRV1

I was under the impression we were talking about a cell phones bluetooth capabilities running trains. ???

If im doing any activity on my cell phone and a call comes in, the call takes priority until its answered or hung up. Alot could happen in that amount of time on some layouts.


----------



## RT_Coker

SRV1 said:


> I was under the impression we were talking about a cell phones bluetooth capabilities running trains. ???
> 
> If im doing any activity on my cell phone and a call comes in, the call takes priority until its answered or hung up. Alot could happen in that amount of time on some layouts.


Actually, the call would automatically be sent to the train!:laugh:

That’s why I recently acquired a ~$100 10” iTablet with no phone capability. Not all iDevices have a phone capability.

If the Application that is running the train is done correctly, it would automatically bring the train to a stop. Sort of like the Dynamis does when the IR link is lost. 
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Is this what is the “Bachmann/BlueRail” “patent pending” is all about?
Certainly raises more questions than answers!
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Very very active thread on subject here: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/williams-by-bachman-big-game-changer-byod?reply=36484918165880446 , and they are not HO!
Bob

Strangely no talk (that I could find) of sound coming from the locomotive or iDevice. Maybe someone who is also on this O Gauge forum could pop the sound question?
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

From BlueRail by way of another forum:

"How does sound work in these trains?
For our initial board release, train sounds will play within your smartphone/tablet and can also be played through AirPlay speakers on your layout. Our current control app contains realistic sounds that synch with operation. We have plans to support loco-specific sound packs within the app. We have further ambitions to allow for the triggering of sound modules within the locomotives - so check back for that."

I was hoping that they had put a remote Bluetooth speaker in the locomotive (a relatively easy thing to do). There demo HO locomotive appeared to have been designed for a speaker.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Here is some good information on Bluetooth 2.x and 4.x: http://www.medicalelectronicsdesign...ose-best-wireless-technology-your-application.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Interesting video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W3MGlaRgfwE.

Any other Bachmann DCC customers care to share your impressions of this message from Bachmann? I would share mine, but I may already be “biased”.
Bob


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

They were pushing this package at York, this is their presentation.


----------



## DavefromMD

So let's see - with an iphone I can make calls, text, surf the internet, buy things on the internet, listen to music, watch TV, pay for things in stores (ipay) so I don't need to carry a wallet, contol appliances, lights, and heating/AC in my house, and now RUN MY TRAINS.

So if I lose it I can no longer do any of those things.

OK, I can get by for a bit with most of that stuff, but I won't be able to take NOT RUNNING MY TRAINS!!!!!!!


----------



## RT_Coker

*False Myths about Bluetooth-Train-Control*

That the main advantage of the application of Bluetooth technology to model trains will be how the trains are controlled.

That you will have to use an iDevice touch screen. (That Bluetooth controllers with knobs and buttons will not be available.)

That it is difficult to send train sounds from the Bluetooth-Controller to the Bluetooth Locomotive.

That Bachmann/BlueRail have “proprietary” control of Bluetooth train hardware.

That you get more range with the newer Bluetooth technologies (4.x) than you do with (2.x or 3.x).

That the neat follow-on iDevice apps will not cost much, because the initial app is free.

That the use of Bluetooth 4.x will not eliminate the use of most current iDevice’s as controllers.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

New TrainWorldTV video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMdeUPESBJU.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

Some Large scale discussion here: http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/22427/bluetooth-anyone/view/post_id/261006.
Open-Interface-Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

*“Sold Out” Already?*

Here: http://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=258_966.:sold:
Not really! Apparently just another little slipup, like the now infamous news anchor.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

*150' DBTC Range Test*

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmAQ0P9IfIk&feature=youtu.be.
I would not assume that the brass locomotive demo is applies to most installations of DBTC in brass. But the frequency-hopping that Bluetooth uses can do some very neat things.
Bob


----------



## RT_Coker

*at WGH show in Edison NJ in March*

Bach Man says that their Bluetooth system will be at WGH show in Edison NJ in March! If any of you are going would you please check it out, and then post what you think about the system here.
Thank you!
Bob


----------



## ggnlars

The reality is there is electronic noise that is naturally occurring in the power signal in the track. To rely on sending a signal amongst that noise is unsettling. Much like when you hit two keys on the key board simultaneously, unpredictable results can and do happen. 

Separating the control and power path will open a number of opportunities. Most beyond what we can imagine at this time.

As I understand the situation, the power is set at the maximum 16 volts DC. The card and the control define the speed step and the pulse. The pulse only travels from the card to the motor. In that regard it is like DCC. The big difference is the card is not trying to interpret information from the track, only getting electric power, for now. Sounds intriguing.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## CrazySpence

If they release a Chessie or CPR i'll buy one just to check it out and there's never anything wrong with more choices

My club layout has a very good DC block system, for my temporary floor layouts I have a decent basic DCC system and now there's an option for bluetooth which can turn our mobile phone, computers, anything....(eventually) into a throttle 

Keep it rollin


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## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus (FYI, if your here?)
From a post on a manufactures forum: “I just got my first E-Z App loco (a PRR Alco RS3) today and set it up on a test track on the dining room table for a trial run. I used an old MRC Tech II 2400 with the throttle knob set at about 3/4 power for the test. The first thing I noticed is that the loco would sit for a short time on powered track, but would eventually start moving if there is no BlueTooth signal.”

To me this sounds like “pulsed-DC” power from the “MRC Tech II 2400” confusing the firmware.
Bob


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## Gigasaurus

*Why E-Z App trains roll when first used*

The Bachmann E-Z App trains default to "DC Mode" out of the box (meaning the loco rolls when given power). Once you connect to the loco with an app, it switches to "bluetooth mode". This rolling when power is initially applied is expected.


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## RT_Coker

Gigasaurus said:


> The Bachmann E-Z App trains default to "DC Mode" out of the box (meaning the loco rolls when given power). Once you connect to the loco with an app, it switches to "bluetooth mode". This rolling when power is initially applied is expected.


If you “DC mode” is like the ones in some DCC-decoders, then the motor can overheat while sitting on a DCC powered track. You may want to reconsider the default to “DC mode” in your next firmware upgrade, or at least make it a configuration setting if it isn’t already.
Bob


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## Mr.Buchholz

Keep cell phones away from the hobby. Too much technology is not necessarily a good thing. If kids get into model trains in the near future only because it works with their phone, then what's the point? Where is the challenge and the fun derived from it?

-J.


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## RT_Coker

Mr.Buchholz said:


> Keep cell phones away from the hobby.


Too late! Cell phones have been in the hobby for some time now. 

Direct-Bluetooth-Train-Control (DBTC) is fundamentally a simpler system than either DC, DCC, or ... (This assumes that we are not taking about running trains around a loop, or a fundamentally more expensive custom-wireless-system.) DBTC is not just for phones, it can use almost any Bluetooth enabled control device (phone, iThing, tablet, computer, or custom-controller).
Bob


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## nealt

Remember you don't need to use a smartphone for these devices a less expensive tablet or iPod touch will also work. Maybe someone will come out with an inexpensive tablet-like controller.


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## Mr.Buchholz

RT_Coker said:


> Direct-Bluetooth-Train-Control (DBTC) is fundamentally a simpler system than DC


Easier than DC? Here are the steps to me using my DC set up:

1) I turn the dial, train moves.

The end.

-J.


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## RT_Coker

Mr.Buchholz said:


> Easier than DC? Here are the steps to me using my DC set up:
> 
> 1) I turn the dial, train moves.
> 
> The end.
> 
> -J.


-J.
You seem to have truncated "your" quotation of me, conveniently leaving off a qualifying assumption. If you really care for a response from me, you need to correct your mistake.
Bob


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## Mr.Buchholz

RT_Coker said:


> You seem to have truncated "your" quotation of me, conveniently leaving off a qualifying assumption.


I truncated the quotation, because most of it didn't apply to me (the DCC or other section).



RT_Coker said:


> If you really care for a response from me, you need to correct your mistake.


You're assuming I'm as bent as you are over this little thing, which I am not. You may respond if you see fit, and if you don't, it's no big deal.

-J.


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## RT_Coker

All (but –J.),
For the record this is the relevant part the quoted post:


RT_Coker said:


> ... Direct-Bluetooth-Train-Control (DBTC) is fundamentally a simpler system than either DC, DCC, or ... (This assumes that we are not taking about running trains around a loop, or a fundamentally more expensive custom-wireless-system.) ... Bob


And this is how it was quoted (or miss-quoted) without the qualifying assumptions (judge for yourself):


RT_Coker said:


> Direct-Bluetooth-Train-Control (DBTC) is fundamentally a simpler system than DC


Bob


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## weirdtolkienishfigure

RT_Coker said:


> Given the greatly improved communications of Bluetooth over DCC, it is only a matter of time.
> 
> I am glad to see something my grandkids could get excited about. I hope it brings more new people (and younger people) into the hobby, so that it will flourish for many years to come.
> Bob


Be careful what you wish for. I know people who have been flying model planes and helicopters for years, possibly wishing the same thing. Now drones have taken off, are all over the news (with many negative stories and idiots doing stupid things with them), and are now the target of heavy regulation by the FAA.

Now they will have to register their hobby with the federal government.


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## gator do 65

weirdtolkienishfigure said:


> Be careful what you wish for. I know people who have been flying model planes and helicopters for years, possibly wishing the same thing. Now drones have taken off, are all over the news (with many negative stories and idiots doing stupid things with them), and are now the target of heavy regulation by the FAA.
> 
> Now they will have to register their hobby with the federal government.


My hobby's in no way should regulated by the government and they sure as he!! will never be registered! That includes all of them...


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