# Need Help with Postwar Lionel 726RR



## L0stS0ul

A few weeks ago I found my fathers 1952 Lionel train set and it was not in the best condition. The engine was seized up and the tender didn't function. All of the insulation on every single wire was cracking and falling off. It has seen better days that is for sure. My father had a 180 watt transformer but the wires had been cut at some point and the handles are broken so I opted for a new transformer. I purchased a MTH Z-1000 as I had read good things about it.

I took the engine and tender to a local lionel repair center and they were able to repair it but it took 3 weeks. From what I understand they had to order some parts, rebuild the e-unit, and do a complete cleanup and lube. When I got it back last Sunday it was working great for several days but I did notice a lot of arching as it ran from the engine and the tender. Here's a video of how it was working

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCiDmw-ch40

The night that I took that video it started requiring more juice to keep going and eventually just stopped. The train now doesn't seem to want to go into gear. It doesn't matter how I have the e-unit switch set it just will not run forward or reverse. I have tried cleaning the track and that did nothing. I have checked the lubrication and it all looks to be good accept for some of the gear box grease coming out one of the wheels. I also checked the voltage off the new Z-1000. I get 14v on the nose from the accessory ports and the variable 0 - 18.5 volts from the controller. This all looks correct to me. I have not yet checked the voltage on the track all the way around. I ran the caboose around it that has a light and there were no parts of the track where the light flickered so it looked good to me.

I have also tried minimizing the track down to just 3 links of straight brand new 0 gauge tube track. It still will not function. On top of all of that the tender has also stopped working. It clicks but the motor does not engage.

Today I went to a train show and found an old 90's costal limited set for under $100 which seemed like a good deal for all I was getting. Figured it would help me diagnose the issue and get a few more pieces to fill out the set. 








It was complete but did look like it had been run. I figured I could use a lot of the pieces and have another nice looking engine and tender even though I can't use the track. Maybe I could do an inner loop or something. 

I got the train home and tested it out on the track. It went 5 times around the track then came to a stop and made a horrible plastic burning smell. It too will not run on the track now. I pulled the new engine apart and checked the circuit board and nothing is burnt up. The motor still turns smoothly and everything seems nice and loose. I re-lubed all of the spots recommended in the manual with 3-in-1 oil. It looks like the plastic burning was coming from a wire going into the smoke unit as it looks like some melted plastic around there but nothing to bad. The train won't run though. I even tried it on the o-27 track it came with and the 40 watt transformer it came with. That thing is variable from 0.6-18 volts and seems to be working ok. 

I'm completely at a loss here. I have now replaced almost all of the old 1950's track with brand new track from the train store, I'm using a lionel lockon for the connection. I guess it's possible both trains are having the same problem but it really seems like it's the track.

The train shop that fixed the berkshire told me to bring everything in and they will help figure out what is going on but they can't look at it until tuesday or wed. It's really getting to me so I'm hoping one of you might have an idea. I don't know what else to try.


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## servoguy

Don't use 3 in 1 oil. It dries out and gets gummy. Use only motor oil. Motor oil will never evaporate or get gummy. Some of the guys use a grease called Red n Tacky by Lucas. I cannot vouch for this grease as I cannot find data on it specifying the vapor pressure. 

I believe your problem is poor lubrication. This will cause sparking as the current is higher than it should be due to the poor lubrication. You can take the shell off of the 726 by removing only 3 screws: One in the front and two in the rear. You do not have to disassemble the connecting rods. I suggest you learn to do your own maintenance as you can get a lot of help from this forum. I have three 736 locos and they all run just fine. One of them was locked up when I got it and I just used motor oil to soften the grease and I didn't spend any great amount of time cleaning it. 

Oil everything that rotates or slides. Oil the axle bearings of the drivers. Oil the motor and the drive shaft that turns the wheels. Oil the worm gears. Oil the side rods as the inner two sets of drivers are driven through the side rods. Oil the front truck and the rear truck. You should be able to rotate the wheels by using your thumb. If they don't rotate easily, something is dry of oil.


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## Big Ed

Might just be coincidental. 

Your new locomotive,
Some locomotives will have a switch to turn the smoke unit off. Some smoke units have to have fluid in them or be turned off when you run them. If they don't they will burn out.
Does yours have a switch? Did you have fluid in it?
Could have been a bad wire too?
The 726,
When you have the 726 shell off look at the worm gear and wheel gear, take a picture of it.
Maybe the repair shop "forgot" to clean it and re-lube? Some repair shops are not really that good to bring your train to. Not saying yours is one of them. 

Servoguy forgot to state that back when the train was new Lionel used a grease the after a few years would harden like cement. 
He is saying to get as much as you can out and use motor oil instead. What little grease that is left will be broke down by the motor oil. He uses motor oil on everything, a lot here do the same but for the worm gears use a more grease like product.


2 repair manuals here, you should get one?
They are both basically the same thing, prices vary greatly for each.
The blue one I have seen go for a hundred bucks!

















There is not much difference in the books. The K line is hard covered the other is not.
This store is asking $25, if you shop around you might get one for less. The same info is in each book.
http://www.kalmbachstore.com/10-8160.html
These won't really get into get technical detail but does have a lot of info on post war trains. Engine and operating cars. Now it won't have that new locomotive but you can apply a lot of the basic info to it.

Here is a link for the 726, http://www.olsenstoy.com/726-47.htm
click on the diagrams to enlarge.

What you see here is some of what are in the books. Note that the 726 was made in different years, try to find out what year yours is from. I picked a page there that had the pictures. There are ways to ID them.

Don't be afraid to ask here too, once you learn how it is easy to work on trains.:smokin:

Oh....welcome to the site.


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## Big Ed

You have the 726 RR, then it was from 1952,

http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_726rr_loco.htm


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. It is the 1952 726RR. My father told me the year he got it so I'm pretty sure about that one. 

For the motor oil, something like the 10w40 that I put in the car? 

I'm surprised that the 726 could need lube as it just came back from the Lionel repair place. It's the only one in the Northern Virginia area as far as Lionel's website states and they have been really nice so far. I have been giving them a lot of $$. We have only run the train for maybe a total of 2 hours since I got it back from the repair place. I would have thought a lube up would have lasted longer. I have never used the 3 in 1 on the old train and now I'm glad I didn't :smilie_daumenpos: Thanks for the warning

Attached are some pictures of the vitals of the 726RR. I've attached a picture of what looks like the grease coming out of the wheel along with closeups of the drive gears. It looks like that has a good amount of grease in it. I don't know enough to know if those brushes are worn or not but the motor looks a little rough to me. Finally I've attached pictures of the e-unit. I think those are all of the items you all were asking for. It doesn't look like there would be binding anywhere.

Thank you so much. You have no idea how frustrating this has been. If it wasn't my dad's old train and my 4 year old son was so jazzed up about it I probably would have given up a long time ago. Although last night he did ask me to go run the train and I told him it wasn't working right now and we said to me "ugh not again". Kids 

I've done a lot of research on the train but I am scared to touch it and break it or destroy the value. I guess I gotta get over that or I'll be spending a ton of $$

I'll take apart the other train next and get some detailed pictures in the next post.


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## Big Ed

One thing you should do is go back and click edit
then advanced edit
the look up top and click the paper clip
when that opens click insert all

all your pictures will then show as pictures, when the thread gets large and you have a lot of pictures it is easier for all to look at.

You only have a little time to edit, 24 hrs I think it is, might be 48??
Go back and try it.

One thing I see is this e unit, the way the lever is set the train won't run right?
See the top first red arrow? That part is supposed to be down on the rivet to run properly.








The gears looks like they serviced them.

I will go back and look again, go back and try the edit. It is easy.
Just find the paper clip (by the white smile face) in the advanced edit. And click, then click insert all.


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## Big Ed

What did you do edit as I was typing?
They are all showing now?


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## Big Ed

Yes, the motor oil you put in the car most will use a 5/20 weight.

Don't over oil, just a little will do otherwise you make a mess on the tracks.


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## L0stS0ul

Sorry about that, I didn't know you could insert them. I looked but didn't see that. They are all inserted now. I edited it after seeing your post  I'm quick hehe

The way the lever is set it is not running. When I have it set within the divit it is supposed to cycle reverse - neutral - forward - neutral. When it is in that mode sometimes it will move if I give it a ton of juice. It seems to go backwards a little easier than forwards. When it is in the current position I believe it is supposed to be set to always go in whatever the last run mode from other position. I could not find a lot of documentation on how that lever works but that is how it was working. Now when it is not in the divit it does not even try to run.


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## Big Ed

I just noticed your video.
You should really screw the track down to secure it.

Are you using that track piece with the red button for powering the rail?

You should be using what is called a lockon, this one has a light the older ones don't.
Shown are both,
















You could just bring the wires up from the bottom and insert them into the tubes and solder them to. Some will do that as they don't like the look of the lockons.

What are you using to power the tracks from the transformer?


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## Big Ed

This piece could be a little cleaner, take a green scotch brite pad (the kind you use in a kitchen) they sell packs of it |Lowes or HD has them, don't use sandpaper or an emery cloth OR STEEL WOOL. Make that whole top nice and shiny.










Where the brushes ride clean out the holes they sit in, they need to ride up and down.
See the picture of the one brush top? It has a slot in it, does the other have a slot? Are they the same length? Or is one shorter then the other? Clean those up too. Make sure you put them back in the right way, the slot mates with the little spring.


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## L0stS0ul

I'm using a lockon like in the second picture you attached. It's underneath the tunnel and I have 18 gauge speaker wire going to it from the Z-1000 controller. 

That piece of track is an old uncoupler and accessory track piece and runs off of track power.

I have several screws in the straight sections. I took the ones out of the turns because the train was derailing a lot. Without the screws I have to have it really hauling to derail. This is just a temporary setup. I have some switch tracks coming that I plan to do 2 loops that can be switched between. This setup is really just to test everything out.


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## L0stS0ul

One brush is a little shorter than the other but they both have the slots in them. In the picture above the shorter one is on the right. I'll try cleaning all of that stuff up. I'm about to head to home depot to see if they have some grease and car oil and will pick up some of those pads while I'm there. Thanks.


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## Big Ed

A second look looks like your using that track for power.
No good, that is for uncoupling cars there is a magnet when you push a button it pulls on the cars button underneath and uncouples the car. Your might have a dump function too.

Unhook that and just stick the 2 wires in the tubes underneath for now and try it.

The center rail is the hot one either of the outside rails will work for the ground wire.
Hot to the center
Ground to the outside.

Here is a good site for someone who needs to know some of the basics,
http://thortrains.net/manualx.htm

But like I said (I think I said) don't be afraid to ask here if you have a question.
I say that so much I can't remember to who I have said it to.


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## Big Ed

OK..........you hid the lockon! 

Try unhooking the remote section, maybe that is bad?
It might heat up after a while and be causing problems?

Easy to take it out and put a straight in there to see.


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## L0stS0ul

Ok, I'll pull the uncoupling track out as well. It was also repaired by the lionel guys. I didn't even know what it was until a few days ago. It does work so I don't think it's shorted out or anything.

I just got this in the mail from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EYTM8M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I was reading on one of the sites that this stuff is recommended to clean the track and the contacts on the trains. Hopefully that stuff is good to use.


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## Dano

Try cycling the E-unit by hand. If the lever is touching the connection but not properly engaged it will act like a loose wire and totally screw up your running. It has to be completely in contact or completely out of contact. With the engine trying to move forward move the lever out of contact and let it run and it will always run forward.


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## Big Ed

That is fine.
When you run out of it just go to the drug store and pickup a bottle of rubbing alcohol. 91% or if you can find it 99%. That is the stuff they use in a hospital to wash you up. It won't harm you unless you drink it.

Cheaper then that stuff I think.
I haul chemicals I get all my liquids for free.

Some use a petroleum naphtha, I use the IPA 99%.
They tell me 99% is hard to get, I don't know.

I got stuff to do be back later.

I should think someone else should jump into the thread too?


I don't know, a lot just argue about the government, taxes, environment etc or whatever.
They are too busy to talk trains.......on a train site.:smokin:

Learn how to take care of the trains yourself, spend the $$$ you are throwing away on the trains.
It is not that hard to do.
Later.

edit, there you go....hello Dano.
I am out of here for now.


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## BWA

Looking at the pic of the comutator, and brushes, they are both arc etched/burned.

Having pulled apart dozens of Lionel motors, I have never seen a com with that much arc damage. Something is pretty wrong here. In some point in that Locomotives life (maybe recent), it must have looked like an arc welder blazing away inside the motor while it was running.

Also, that wheel with all the grease oozing, may indicate that the wheel is loose on the axle. This could cause binding, poor running, serious load on the motor, and, possibly is the cause of all that arcing.......... 

On the other hand, none of the above may be true, but, from the pics, and, your description of what is happening, that would be my best guess.


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## servoguy

There is an oil hole for the motor bearings on the top of the motor. Can you tell if it had oil put into it? You didn't show it in the pictures.


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## servoguy

The burn marks on the commutator and the pits on the pickup rollers indicate the motor is drawing too much current. Don't try to run it until you have fixed this problem as you may damage the motor. The motor should turn freely when it is installed on the loco frame.


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## servoguy

It is possible that the motor bearings are worn out and the armature is hitting the field. Check for slop in the motor bearings by moving the armature side to side. Also check for score marks on the armature. 

When the motor is fastened to the frame, it should turn freely, and you should be able to rotate the drivers and backdrive the motor. If the motor won't backdrive, you have a lubrication or adjustment problem somewhere.

Were the axles that carry the drivers lubricated? Can't tell from your pictures.

The burn marks on the commutator and the pits on the pickup rollers indicate the motor is drawing way too much current. It is normal for the pickup rollers to spark a little, but the drivers should not spark.


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## servoguy

Post war locos don't have a switch to turn the smoke off unless someone has modified the loco and smoke generator. Post war locos use smoke pills, not liquid smoke.


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## L0stS0ul

If the wheel is loose how do you go about fixing that? I did check the side to side motion and the rear one matches the other three. 

Neither locomotives have a switch for the smoke unit. The guys at the lionel shop told me that I can use the liquid smoke in place of the pellets and sold me some smoke liquid. It's seemed to be working fine. 

It's hard to tell if the axles were lubricated. The rear ones have the grease from the gear box on them. With the motor in place the axle turns freely both directions with the wheels. I will pull it apart now and check the for score marks on the armature and for oil. I didn't know that is what the hole is for.


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## Big Ed

servoguy said:


> Post war locos don't have a switch to turn the smoke off unless someone has modified the loco and smoke generator. Post war locos use smoke pills, not liquid smoke.


I was talking about the "new" train he purchased not the 726.


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## L0stS0ul

I pulled the motor off and took a look at the play. There is no left or right play but there is a little up and down play. It looks like the c-clip may not be seated all the way or something. I couldn't move it when I tried. I don't think I have a tool that can take it off cleanly. The motor spins very freely forward and backward when attached to the train. I don't hear any grinding or anything coming from the back. 

It's really hard to tell what, if anything, on the motor was oiled. Since I can't get the c-clip off. There is a ton of grime on it though and the things that hold the brushes were really nasty. It took a lot of work with a q-tip to clean both of those out. I ran the scotch bright across the back but it's not cleaning it up at all as far as I can tell. The whole train is still pretty nasty with old grease and oil.


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## L0stS0ul

*The New Train...*

Here's a couple of pics of the new train. I think this on just needs a really good cleaning after talking to you all. The smoke unit I am still freaked out a bit. It was really smoking a lot and we could smell plastic inside of the smell. The smoke fluid I have is some hickory firewood smell or something. 









This area was really gunked up. I cleaned it up with the scotch bright pad but it's still sticky. The whole train feels sticky everywhere. It's going to take some work to clean it up.








The gear area doesn't look warn out at all but it is very sticky and covered in gunk.
















As are areas like this one








This is where I think the plastic melted. I'm guessing because of the gunk it drew to much current and caused this to overheat. It seems to work still so I don't know if this is something to worry about. The smell stunk up the house like nothing else. I did have smoke fluid in it.








The circuit board doesn't look to have anything fried on it. The train still moves a little when I put it on the track but it won't go around a curve. I'll retest once I clean it out.


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## Dano

It looks to me like you are now doing what the guy at the shop said he did! 
Considering the track though, I recently had a problem of continuity where I have a pressure activated semaphore. The movement of the track could not be cured and I had to solder connecting wires between sections to fix it. The curved sections of your system have a lot of movement similar to what mine were doing in that area. I was having to use more juice than necessary to get things running.


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## servoguy

Danao, the loco shows signs of too much current.


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## servoguy

Lost Soul, If you take the motor apart, you may discover it has ball bearing thrust bearings. The balls may fall out and get lost. You shouldn't need to take the motor apart.


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## T-Man

Well, you did buy another engine. A 2026 would be more practical and give you some confidence on repair. A 2016,2018, 2037 are all basically alike. 


Now your 726. has worn rollers and will arc until they clean up a little. My guess is the fast speed and tight corners offset your center rollers and caused a short. They may not have any insulating washers. SO far it had happened to me on a 2332 and a 671. The same set up. If you had a meter you can check for a short . It all starts with a man, a manual, a meter and a Lionel Machine.:smokin:


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks for all of the help. The train shop said I had a warranty on the repair so I might have to take them up on that with the 726. Looks like a few issues there that might be easier for them to troubleshoot. Given that one has some serious issues I decided to tackle the new smaller train.

I spent the last 3 hours cleaning and lubing the new train. I also cleaned the track with the track cleaner and cleaned all of the contacts. The new train did the exact same thing. It didn't even get half way around the track. I just don't get it. I got this one on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDH41lbZ4Z4

It this point I just don't know what else to do. That new train is completely cleaned up. The track is all new accept for 2 straight pieces. I have tried the Z1000 and the 40 watt one that came with the new kit and the exact same things happen. I'm stumped

I knew this new train was not identical or even close to the old one. I just wanted something that looked nice and could run around the track as well and wasn't expensive since fixing up this old train has already cost me over $400 including new track, new transformer, parts, and repair of the 726 and tender. $100 for this train with the extra cars, transformer, and scenery items put it in my mind less than $50 for the loco and tender.


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## Big Ed

I was just hitting the sack.

You have a short, I suspect it has something to do with that smoke unit?

Can you disconnect it and isolate that wire?
Try it then.

Somewhere you have a direct short.

Look for wires somewhere hitting the frame too.
There should be a wire running down to the pickup rollers from the e unit, make sure that is not shorting out on the frame.

Later, off to ZZzzz land now. Early to bed and earlier to rise.:smokin:


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## Big Ed

Just saw your pictures, it has to have something to do with that melted wire?

Later got to hit the sack.

edit is the light bulb working?
That wire goes to the bulb too?

Is the bulb good?
How does it look inside the bulbs socket?

Poof, gone.


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## rkenney

T-Man said:


> It all starts with a man, a manual, a meter and a Lionel Machine.:smokin:


That's really catchy!! A brilliant marketing slogan!! :thumbsup:

Just can't figure which your sellin'. The manual, the meter, or the Lionel? :laugh:


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## servoguy

Lost Soul,
Give us a list of what you lubricated and what you lubed with. My guess is that you missed something. Do it for both locos. I don't see any lube at all on the pictures of your new loco.


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## T-Man

I tracked the 8633 engine number. It is modern made in 2007. Here is http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/70-8616-250.pdf

The manual shows the switches. Try shutting off the smoke generator. The last picture it appears to be burned out.


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## L0stS0ul

The new train is from the Costal Limited set from 1993 I believe. This is a similar set to the one I purchased at the train show this weekend. 

http://www.collector-modeltrains.com/dash/universe/catalog_item/MT-0314523/

The manual inside has 1993 on it. It does have a switch but the switch is not for the smoke. It is for the e-unit to switch between the back - neutral - forward - neutral and the last setting from the other mode. I found the manual on lionel.com and that's what it said at least.

I never lubed the 726. That was done by the lionel repair place. I was told it was all completely overhauled and cleaned up. It looks like some spots were missed. The pictures I have shown so far in this thread are as the trains stands now. I've not really touched it other than to take the pictures. 

I pulled everything off the other train. I've not taken any pictures of it since cleaning it up. The video shows it about as best as I can show right now. I took the motor out and sprayed it with electrical cleaner I use on servos and other motors. I took all of the arms and stuff out and scrubbed them down with goo gone and scotch bright (and a screw driver to pry off the really nasty stuff). I then washed all of them down and lubed them up with 5w30 oil once the gunk was all off. I pulled off and cleaned the gears that I could with a toothbrush and then put a small amount of red and tacky grease on them and turned them by hand quite a bit. I then wiped off the excess. I cleaned up and lubed every swing arm thing with the scotchbright and then lubed them with the 5w30. The internal axels of the main wheels also got some 5w30 on them. I used the track cleaner to clean the contacts on the rollers as well as the wheels. 

I pulled off the smoke unit completely from the train and set it aside and put it back together. The light bulb was still working and looks clean. It does look like the smoke unit shorted out and is causing the problem. The train ran with no mechanical issues for about 15 minutes after removing the smoke unit. My guess is putting it on the track without cleaning it up caused it to draw way to much current which in turn caused the smoke unit to over heat and short itself out. Had I just cleaned the train before running it I probably would not need a new smoke/light unit. I hope it's not too expensive. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TwiloUIPWo

This test proves that it's not the track or the transformer. It is just a really strange coincidence that both trains are showing the same symptom but very different causes. I can't thank you all enough for the help. My son will be bouncing around tomorrow that we have one train running even if there is no smoke. I got a little video of it running. I think it looks correct now

One, hopefully, last question on this little train. The traction thing that is around one of the wheels keeps slipping off. Is there any good way to keep it on the train and is it really needed? The old train doesn't have anything like that on it.

Since the shop said they will warrenty the work on the 726 I'll be taking that back in along with the tender and will let them know what you all have told me. Hopefully they can get to the bottom of what's going on with that train.

You all are awesome! Big Ed, thanks so much.


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## Dano

servoguy said:


> Danao, the loco shows signs of too much current.


I agree, I was just pointing out a potential problem with the track bouncing like it was.


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## Dano

Your traction tire has gotten stretched and loosened up. Some people super glue them on in the short term but it should eventually be replaced.


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## L0stS0ul

I'm just learning about all of this stuff. It's it normal to have a traction tire on just one side or should they be on both sides? Are they needed? I don't believe my dad's train had these things.


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## sjm9911

They are cheap, order a few. You can see a track for it on the metal wheel. I think that model has only one. Might not be needed but will run better with them.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks, I was looking through the box and there was a new one in with the smoke fluid that came with the kit so I put that one on. I will look into getting some new ones. I'm sure my train store has them. The train has been running great all night. I hooked all 9 of the cars that I have up to it and it is pulling that load just fine. I found a replacement for the entire smoke unit for around $13. I'll be checking with the train shop to see if they can get it in as well as shipping would be cheaper to them. 

Thanks for all of the help today. Honestly, I was at the end of my rope earlier and about to pack it all back up for some other generation to deal with. I'm glad I got one engine running and watching it go around the track tonight felt really good.


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## servoguy

The 726 does not have traction tires. Traction tires didn't come along for several years after the 726 was made.


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## L0stS0ul

I took the trains back to the train shop today and they are going to take a look at the 726 again. I let them know all of the info you all came up with. It will be interesting to hear what is ultimately wrong with it.

They had a replacement smoke unit for the new train. Tonight I soldered it in and gave it a test. It seems to work pretty well but it smells horrible. There is a hint of burning plastic. I know this thing is mostly plastic but is it normal, the first time a smoke unit like this is used, for it to smell pretty bad? Based off the look on my wife's face if it doesn't stop smelling like burning plastic soon I'll have to disconnect the new one. This is the smoke unit

http://www.trainz.com/p-299730-lionel-8041-50-smoke-unit-complete.aspx

Here is some video of the new smoke unit working. I did notice when I installed it there was this red gunk on the plastic where the wire leads went in. I'm wondering if that was the smell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrmpBXpjIxs


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## rkenney

I watched the video and I couldn't smell a thing! :laugh:


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## L0stS0ul

I hope Google starts using smellavision soon.


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## L0stS0ul

I got the 726 back from the train depot yesterday. They figured out what was wrong. It turned out to be the same problem as the new train. Apparently there is a wire shorting out on the case. Their fix wasn't very pretty, they basically wrapped the motor cap with electrical tape, but the train runs fine now. I'm going to take it back apart and replace the grease with some new grease and clean the motor up really well. I'll also re-solder the motor wires and this time I'll put some heat shrink on them to get rid of the electrical tape.


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## L0stS0ul

Here's a little video on the new layout






It doesn't seem to be arching as much on the curves or straight sections but it's really sparking on those k-line switch tracks. I'm also still seeing quite a bit of arching inside the motor. I'll get that cleaned up and hopefully that will reduce it. 

The whistle tender is the original one that came with it. It's really loud as you can hear in the video. I've added a little oil to the motor shaft and cleaned it up really well. It's working consistently but quite noisy. Is that how loud they normally are or should I keep working at it?

One of the k-line switch tracks didn't work out of the box. I had to take it apart and re-seat the gears inside of it before it would work. Glad I caught that before they stripped. I had already modded it for old tube track.


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## L0stS0ul

Well, I'm glad I took it apart to look. Wrapping the back of the train with electrical tape to fix a short is pretty lame but opening it up this guy was just rushing to get it out the door. He used a wrong screw for one of the body mounts. It's way to small so that was working it's way out. He also removed the batting for the smoke unit. I didn't look before running the train so now there is fluid all over the inside of the train. His solder connections are horrible. No wonder they are hitting the body. 

I just wanted to do it up right and have my dad's old train restored by a pro so I don't mess it up. $95 bucks down the tube.


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## servoguy

And why are you taking your trains to an "expert" for repair? It appears you know more about repair than this so called "pro" does.


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## L0stS0ul

I didn't know anything when I took it to them January 4th. I had just found the train in a box and I've never done model trains before. I was clueless when I first posted this thread and mostly frustrated after getting the train back and it stopped working. At that point I was not in a position to repair the train. I was afraid I would destroy any value in it. Now, after reading through this site and all of the help you all gave me in this thread I could repair it but it was not my intention to learn how to repair old trains  Practicing on a newer train I didn't care about also helped give confidence. But I did pay $100 so thought the pro's should get it working. Now I really don't want them to touch it again.


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## sjm9911

Unfortunately , thats why most here choose to fix there own stuff. I had the same experience once, only once!


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## servoguy

I got my first train in 1950 when I was 9. I never took it to a LHS because the nearest shop was in Kansas City 110 miles away. I even repaired an E unit back in those days that had the stub shaft of the drum missing.


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## Big Ed

big ed said:


> I was just hitting the sack.
> 
> You have a short, I suspect it has something to do with that smoke unit?
> 
> Can you disconnect it and isolate that wire?
> Try it then.
> 
> Somewhere you have a direct short.
> 
> *Look for wires somewhere hitting the frame too.*
> There should be a wire running down to the pickup rollers from the e unit, make sure that is not shorting out on the frame.
> 
> Later, off to ZZzzz land now. Early to bed and earlier to rise.:smokin:





L0stS0ul said:


> I got the 726 back from the train depot yesterday. They figured out what was wrong. It turned out to be the same problem as the new train. Apparently there is a wire shorting out on the case. Their fix wasn't very pretty, they basically wrapped the motor cap with electrical tape, but the train runs fine now. I'm going to take it back apart and replace the grease with some new grease and clean the motor up really well. I'll also re-solder the motor wires and this time I'll put some heat shrink on them to get rid of the electrical tape.


That is why I told you way back in this thread to look, you could have fixed that.


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## L0stS0ul

I thought you were talking about the new train in that post. I missed those wires in the back that are causing the problem. You were right  Now that I know its clear. Even looking back at the pictures I posted in this thread I can see the issue. I do think there are some other issues still. I'll take it apart and clean and lube it again once I get the parts back.


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## L0stS0ul

Hopefully this will be my last request for help on this train. The company felt bad about what had happened with the shorting issue and missing parts so they took the train back and had a new guy redo the solder connections and they replaced all of the parts. I am glad about that but... I got the train home today and stuck it on the track and after about 5 minutes the train just stopped. I could hear the e-unit cycling but it would not move. 

It was definitely acting like there was no voltage getting to the motor to power it but I could hear the e-unit and it would move forward and backward on the track by pushing it. It was stuck in this state until I touched my voltage meter to it and then it shot off and ran fine for another 5-10 minutes with the shell off. Then it stopped again and I could not get it to run no matter what I did.

So I pulled the train apart and took a look. The motor is free and moves backward and forward easily. I don't see anything locked up there. I cleaned up the motor really well while I had it apart and it's nice and shiny now.

As I pulled the e-unit out of the train most of the lower parts fell out pretty easily. It does not look like it was put back together correctly. I could see that the e-unit sides were bent a bit and never straightened. As I look closer I can see that some of the insulation on that spur contact thing is now melted and I think that is causing a short which is now tripping my transformer.









Can an e-unit issue cause the finger to melt the insulation like that? Clearly it was not put back together well but I'm not sure if that was the cause the melting. 

I've decided I'm not dealing with this repair place anymore and need to fix this myself. I can get a new e-unit but not sure if that is the only issue. Not sure how to figure out what else could be wrong.

While I was putting the e-unit back together and unsticking that finger one of the original wires to the collectors broke off. I'm guessing it connects to this tab in the picture but I just want to verify that.









Thanks for the help. This thing is royally frustrating.


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## sjm9911

Here is some e unit stuff for you. http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=288701&postcount=4


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks. That was really helpful

It looks like I need to replace the drum thing at a minimum. The e-unit frame is really bent but it does cycle cleanly and I think I have it together nice and snug now. The big question is why did that finger get hot enough to melt the insulation. Can the e-unit cause that if it's binding a little?

I think the next task is to pull all the linkages and check the wheels for any binding. They all seem to move smoothly with everything connected but taking it apart I can clean everything really well.


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## Big Ed

Did you see these in there?
2 good videos on rebuilding the e unit, part one and part two.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=283976&postcount=6


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## Dano

I feel your pain. I never go beyond cleaning E units in situ. My fear is causing unknown havoc with it!


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## L0stS0ul

Those will be very helpful. Thanks

I think I have found the cause of the train drawing too much current. One of the wheels looks to be bent pretty badly. It does not look like the axle is bent but the wheel itself. Is there any way to fix this? I don't think I've seen replacement wheels and axles for sale anywhere.


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## Dano

That front driver is seriously out of alignment. It may have been pressed on crooked or the axle could have been bent right at the wheel as a result of a fall. You should take it out so that you can see any damage. You will probably have to remove the wheel in any case and remount it.


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## sjm9911

Take a picture of the side of the wheel please. That shouldn't cause the short. You might be able to press the wheel back on and add a bit of glue, epoxy to keep it even if the hub is worn out. Otherwise Jeff at the train tender will have replacements.


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## sjm9911

How were the wires on the eunit, was the solder job sloppy? Did wires just fall out?


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## L0stS0ul

The wires on the e-unit didn't look too bad but the connections from the collectors were quite bad. I think the short might have occurred when the finger melted through the insulation maybe. Not sure if that could cause a short or not. The e-unit did fall apart when I pulled it out the first time. The 2 finger board and the drum fell out.

I don't think the wheel alignment is causing a short but I think it could be been causing the friction that is causing the high current draw. That could possibly be the root cause of all the issues? Or maybe this train has a few issues  Either way it's completely apart now and it's going to get the TLC it needs. 

I'll try and pull the wheel to inspect the hub. Any suggestions on how to do that? I don't have a puller that could do it.


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## L0stS0ul

I think both of the main axles are bent a little bit. I was able to use a wood mallet to straighten the wheel quite a bit. It's not perfect but it seems to be quite smooth now as I push it around the track and I'm not seeing it hit the frame or the other wheel. Is this good enough or am I just creating a situation where I'm going to have a much larger issue later on down the road?

I've not been able to get any of the wheels off the axles. They are not budging at all


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## servoguy

I would advise against trying to pull the wheels. Your wooden mallet sounds like a good idea. I have used a large pair of pliers and gripped the rim of the wheel and bent some of them back.


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## Dano

Looks a lot better than it was!


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks, I've managed to improve it some more than that but I think I've reached the point where it's not going to get any better. At least it's not hitting the other wheels or the frame anymore. That should be a huge improvement. I found a wheel puller but it's nearly $200 just for the tool so I don't think I'll be going down the path of replacing the wheels unless I can find a shop that can do it (other than the one I've already been to). That would be the only thing I would have the shop do.

I have a new e-unit on order as this one is really bent up and the drum is damaged. . The place I got it from said I can do an exchange for the old one so it won't cost me a ton to replace. 

I picked up a few other parts that were either missing or needing to be replaced. Things like a new brush plate and brushes. I am pretty sure the shop broke the brush plate so I'm just replacing it with a new one as well as the collectors. Those are really worn. I'm going to convert the smoke unit to fluid while I'm at it. That shop gave me some bad advice on the fluid. 1 or 2 drops max is what I should have been doing but they told me 5-7 drops which is way to much. 

Live and learn  Hopefully the parts will come in middle of the week and I can get to reassembling it. In the mean time I'm giving the entire train a really good cleaning and proper lube.


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## rkenney

L0stS0ul said:


> Live and learn


Now you know why a good many of us will simply not allow someone else to work on our stuff. Don't think for a minute it's because we think we know more, it's simply because we want to figure it out on our own and may have to despite someone else.

Pride of accomplishment. Carry on! :smokin:


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## L0stS0ul

I tell ya, finding this old train in a box over Christmas has dramatically changed how I thought my new year was going to start  I would not have guessed I'd be working on an old train like this that's for sure.


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## L0stS0ul

That right front wheel is very loose on the axle. I can move it with my hand up and down but I can't get it off. I added a dab of CA but I don't think it's going to hold very long. Hopefully long enough to show my dad the train working if I can't find a place that can press the wheel. I think I need a new shaft and possibly a new wheel for the long run. I looked online and the wheel pullers are expensive and apparently there is also a wheel press. I don't have anything that could press it. Hopefully one of the other train shops around here has the ability to do it. Probably cheaper than buying the tools.


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## teledoc

If you make the decision that you want to replace the axle and wheel/s, by all means do not go to the original repair facility you started with. Check around to find another Lionel Repair Station, and ask if they can pull the wheels, and if they have a wheel press, to do the job CORRECTLY. If you find another Repair station, call them first, before taking your engine in.

I'm in a situation myself, that I need a set of wheels pressed onto a 2020 Turbine, and there are no facilities close to me, that has a wheel press. So, for now, it is sitting in a box, waiting until I come up with a solution.


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## rkenney

teledoc said:


> I'm in a situation myself, that I need a set of wheels pressed onto a 2020 Turbine, and there are no facilities close to me, that has a wheel press. So, for now, it is sitting in a box, waiting until I come up with a solution.


With a degree of care you can press the wheels on Lionel locomotives with a 4" vise.

The basic process is to get the one side assembled first so that when the linkage is installed the wheels will rotate without binding. You then have to press the opposite wheel on so that its linkage will align with adjacent wheels on that side. 

Where there is a will, there is a way! I wouldn't want to do it that way in a shop, but for a one off or occasional procedure it works just fine.


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## teledoc

Rkenney, Thanks for the suggestion of using a bench vise. I have contemplated doing just that remedy. The 2020 is kind of sitting on the back burner for now. I actually have two 2020 and one 671 turbine that are complete, but the one with the wheel issue is my original from 1953. My trains were given to my Uncle, for his two sons, when I hit my teens, and had lost interest in trains. I thought that they were gone forever, but a year ago, my youngest cousin contacted me and asked if I wanted my trains back. We finally got together to retrieve my stuff, along with all the trains he had from his childhood. The 2020 that was mine, had 3 badly chipped wheels. I pulled the wheels, got a new complete set to put back on. I checked with two of the closest Hobby shop (Lionel Svc. Stations), but neither has a wheel press. So, now I just put that 2020 aside for the time being, and will eventually get to it.

One of the items that my cousin gave me, not one of MY trains, was a "Hoge 900 Streamline, ca. 1935, which was complete set, minus a Set Box. I posted pictures in the Gallery. He also gave me a little rare 235 Steam engine and found out I have the complete Uncatalogued Set #X-648 (no set box though). I made out on the deal, when he gave me everything that he had kept for 45 years. I am definitely one happy camper!!!


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## servoguy

You can also use a drill press as a press. It will not generate the force that a vise or arbor press will, but I have used it for pressing things together. I think rkenney's advice on using a bench vise is good. With care, it should work OK.

Loctite has products for filling in gaps like the one you have between the wheel and axle. You might search their web site for something more suitable than super glue. You could also make a bushing to fix the wheel.

You can probably get the wheel off using a flat end punch and hammer. Take the side rods off of both sides. Since the wheel is loose, it shouldn't take much to get the wheel off.


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## L0stS0ul

I don't have a drill press. I should probably get one eventually. That's one of those tools I've always wanted. 

I have found 2 repair shops that claim to have the wheel puller and the proper wheel press but both will be quite a drive. I believe both of the middle wheels will have to come off in order to get off the end wheels as the end wheels have that flange. I wish I could just borrow the puller and press and do it myself lol. 

Neither of the new places are certified lionel repair places. Only the one I originally took it to is around here.


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## L0stS0ul

I got the engine back from the repair place today. They were able to fix the existing shaft and apparently it's a good thing too. They could not find a replacement shaft (I couldn't either) as that specific shaft has a thing on it to pump the smoke unit which makes getting it off the frame very difficult. They were able to respline the shaft or something in order to get the wheel on. It looks really clean and really snug on there now. All of the wheels look straight and are moving really really smooth. 

Now to put the train back together and get it going. I'll take some pictures as I do it since it's completely apart right now and I wanna remember this . I've got it cleaned up really nice as well. 

One thing I have been debating on is upgrading the smoke unit to fluid. I bought the conversion kit but from what I understand you have to run the train with fluid after the conversion. I've read a lot of pros and cons on this site about it so still debating. I guess if I don't like it I can always convert it back.


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## teledoc

Glad to hear that you got it back in good condition. Actually the axle is part # 671-21, which is swaged in the center of the axle to hold the smoke cam in place. The smoke cam is part # 671-182, and both parts are available from Jeff Kane (ToyTrainTender), Brasseurs, & Trainz.com. What you can't find from most of the suppliers of parts, are the wheels themselves. They are a hard item to find, when searching to replacements.

Good luck with the re-assembly.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks Teledoc, I didn't know those were the part numbers. I was looking at the parts list on olsenstoy and I guess it's not quite right. http://www.olsenstoy.com//cd/locos/loc726d2.pdf

I guess they repair place was just not comfortable replacing the shaft or their supplier couldn't find it. It does look like they fixed it well but I will be watching it for a while


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## L0stS0ul

*It's Alive.. Thank you*

It took most of the night but the train is up and running. :smilie_daumenpos:

I ran into a shorting issue which was tough to trace down. It ended up being the front light. I guess that original guy replaced all of the wires and did a horrible job on the light as well and it could short out on it's own casing when going around turns. I cut the wire down and resoldered it and now it's all working great. Here are the pics from the rebuild

I cleaned the base up as best as I could. It was super dirty but now it's nice and clean















Putting the frame back together started with the smoke unit. I cleaned up the wood insert and got it all put back together















Next I started in on the new collector I bought. It's no longer heavily worn and it was missing one of the spacers before which I replaced.






















Next I worked on converting the smoke unit. It was pretty easy with the conversion kit from JustTrains.com. Dennis was a huge help finding the parts I needed and diagnosing the train. First I took apart the old one and cleaned the base really well. Then it was simply inserting the new insert and soldering it. Very simple.






















Next I started in on the engine. I purchased a new brush plate because the original one (on the right) had some cracks in the mid section along with a huge chip out of the side. I also picked up some new brushes while I was at it. Finally I cleaned up the commutator as best as I could. 








Next I started in on the soldering of the new e-unit and the rest of the connections. I took lots of pictures of how it was connected before and just replicated it.






























I soldered the ground for the new smoke unit to the base plate for the smoker. Seemed like as good a spot to ground it as any.








Finally back together and working. So happy 






















That new smoke unit is working really well too once it gets going!


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## teledoc

Excellent job on the rebuild. Although it took time, it was well worth it. Speaking of Olsens, if you look in their Library section, it has the breakdown Photo's of the different parts. That is where the part numbers came from. I have the Kline service manual, which is an abridged version of the original manuals, and the part numbers were what I sent you. An abridged version is not a 100% complete reprint, but highlights the most popular items. Glad you got it running it great shape.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks! Hopefully I won't need a service manual again but if I do I'll make sure to pick up the kline one. Thanks for all of the help.


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## Dano

That was a long haul, congratulations!


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## sjm9911

Yes, looks like new. Great job and save the old parts , ya never know if youll need something.


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## L0stS0ul

Thanks :smilie_daumenpos: It's been running great these last few days and I've redone the layout to have less corners which is much kinder on this old train. Now that the restoration is over we're finally looking at what we can do to enhance the layout  We're having a lot of fun with it. I'll make sure to store those parts away in a safe place. Thanks for all of the help and advice!


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## L0stS0ul

Here's a quick video of the new layout. Both trains are much happier on this layout. I have 2 more switches on the way to make a little train yard. So much more space to put buildings and stuff on this size table. Plus my son loves that we have a bridge now


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## L0stS0ul

*Upgrading the headlight to LED*

Well... I have one final upgrade to this little guy. It's been running great now for 3 months and it gets a lot of track time. It's one of my most reliable trains and I love how it smokes with the updated smoke unit. One thing I've been not so happy about was the headlight. Something that guy at the shop did seemed to really dim it to the point where it was useless. I recently upgraded my J class to an LED light so I decided to do the same for this old fella. I know the purists might hate this but I've already upgraded the smoke unit to liquid and this train will stay in my family forever so why not. :smilie_daumenpos: I did keep the old light should I ever need to put it back

It's a pretty simple setup (thanks to gunrunnerjohn)

5mm warm-white LED -> 1N4001 diode -> 470 ohm 1/4W resistor -> track power. 









And it's working and looks great  I even can see the headlight beaming in the smoke with the lights on. Previously you could barely see the headlight when the lights were off.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Looks great, I love to see them running in the dark. :thumbsup:

The reason I like LED upgraded headlights is just what you mention, the headlight actually looks like a real headlight and not a nightlight.


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## L0stS0ul

You are right, it looks so much better with the LED. Thanks for the suggestion


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