# DC and DCC working together



## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Say I want to keep the functionality of my present DC layout intact and add DCC and swap between the two systems. I have a great many DC locos, and not to many DCC locos. Presently I run three blocks and five reverse loops, four of which are within a figure 8. (Don't ask me how.)

Can I maintain my present all Atlas controllers and selectors and place the switches in the center neutral position, place the block switches in either the A or B position and wire in a switched DCC system and run it that way?

And, oh by the way which DCC system would be best for my application. I see they run between $150 and $500. Quite a spread.

















I appreciate any comments, I'm lost when it comes to DCC.

Thanks


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Well, for trains only it is a simple task. Disconnect the DC controller, completely, connect the DCC. Reverse the process. Take locos off layout.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think the blocks and reverse loops might present a problem though.

But even if not, what about an independent isolated track for the dcc. Maybe kinda over it in some kind of risers...?

An outer loop also appeals to me that's dcc only but I'm not sure there's room.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Not quite that easy as you have a reverse loop. The bigger problem is inadvertently leaving a DC locomotive on the track when you switch from DC to DCC. That would overheat the DC motor armature on the locomotive. The reverse loop may work manually like it does now with you controlling the phase, but its unlikely. Which means you need some way to disconnect the reverse loops from the DC wiring and switch in a DCC reverse loop controller, it can be done but its again asking for something to go wrong and equipment to be destroyed. DC and DCC signals cannot be mixed. I do think that all your block control and turnout control can be preserved if you convert to DCC, but you will not need the dual cab capability nor the reverse loop control you currently use. 

The other possibility is to completely isolate one of your loops and dedicate it to running DC with all the rest of the layout converted to DCC. Isolating to a single loop running DC could be simplified to a single DC throttle (power Pack). Isolation means no connecting turnouts. Your outer loop fits this with the removal of the 2 places where you can transfer to the inner loops. 

No easy decision here. My guess is you enjoy running DCC more than DC and just eliminating any DC trackage would be the way to go, but its your call here.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Dennis it totally correct, but let me add explanations.

First, a quick primer on DCC.
DCC puts around 14 volts modified AC on the track at
all times. There is no need for blocks or isolated
sections except in the case of a reverse loop.
Your loco lights stay on. The controller sends
a digital signal thru the track to a decoder in each loco.
That decoder has a 2 or 4 digit 'address', often we use
the loco road number. The DCC controller will let you
run 2, 3 or more locos at the same time with individual
control of each. The controller is similar to a TV remote.
You change locos not TV channels with the buttons.

You would use your DC power pack
accessory terminals for your turnouts, lights and
other accessories. The DCC controller power goes
only to the track.

Because the DCC track is AC,
If a DC loco is left to idle on the track the motor
would likely be damaged. When you run DCC it is
best to remove all DC locos from the track. DCC locos can stay
on the track whether DCC or DC. Some may
operate on the DC power.

At no time can the DC power pack be connected to
the track when the DCC controller is also connected.
The controller would likely be damaged.

The recommendation for a layout such as yours is
to have a Double Pole, Double Throw (DPDT) Switch that one
way feeds DCC to the track, the other way throws DC.
But you also must feed the DCC with all block switches
thrown to provide the DCC power to all sections.

I think I see 2 or 3 reverse loops. Each would need a
reverse loop controller. They are automaticd. You never again
have to operate switches for a loco to continue thru a 
reverse loop.
If you have a manual reverse loop
switch set up for your DC it may work when running DCC would still require you
to do the toggle switching.

We'll be glad to help you when you decide to
convert.

Don


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks, so polarity is still in play here regarding the reverse loops? because 12 VDC (or there about) is still applied to the rails? Told you I know nothing about DCC. 

The white switch on the controller controls the direction of the locomotive within the reverse loops. All reverse loops are blocked (isolated) with insulators on all rails. As long as the switch is in the center neutral position there is nothing going on there. If I ran DCC and left that switch neutral I should have no conflicting problem running DCC. 










I have thought seriously about adding 6 inches all around the layout and laying 24" r there as a block or with a single switch to access the mainline. 

Any suggestions regarding a DCC system?


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Dennis461 said:


> Well, for trains only it is a simple task. Disconnect the DC controller, completely, connect the DCC. Reverse the process. Take locos off layout.


Thanks Dennis, I would just add a SPDT switch selecting DC or DCC ensuring both could not be connected at the same time. Think it would work?


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

It's "phase" in dcc land. The wave form is like a bunch of square waves and this is mirrored on the other rail. You still have the reverse loop problem. They sell auto reversers or you could throw a dptd switch etc ...

I built my own base from the dcc++ open source project. However if you wanted commercial a lot of folks seem to like the nce products. Having said that I don't think there's an actual bad product. I'll let others now tell me I'm completely wrong and it should be a *_* system.


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks Don, Ah, so DCC is AC? Ha, contradiction.  I did not know that. Reason for removing DC only locos from the track. Your right, DPDT switch would be best.

Any recommendations about a DCC system. I'm serious about this thing.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

It's not really ac. It has a digital wave form basically so it's similar. But ac is analog. But but that's possibly not that important from a practical point of view. The practical side is you plug the dcc together and connect it on the track and it's at a kind of "on".

The system or base encodes commands on the track using the wave form. And the engine gets the command through the wave form and does something. (Go forward, speed up, slow down, etc...)

Where as with dc you vary the voltage to make the engine do things.


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## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Might it be easier simply to convert your DC locomotives to DCC? The decoders will cost some more money, but it probably would be worth it.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Severn,* Hi again.
Some constants: AC and DC are analog. DCC is digital; employing analog to the motor while giving instructions to to the loco, through the rails [or by radio], digitally..
Next: I will assume you mean only one type at a time, DC engines removed/isolated from system when running DCC trains, and vise versa..If so:
Merely make a fail-safe circuit mentally as well as electronically which permits only one type at a time..The two are each connected with their 2 wires to the rails,.anywhere..
~ When running *DCC *make sure DC power is off. Preset all your blocks to 'closed' or live, so that all the rails have DCC, with block control now irrelevant. At this time all DC locos are removed or in isolated tracks from system.
When running *DC*, make sure DCC power is turned off, DCC engines now iscolated...
Reversing loops are entirely dealt with the same way in either mode. So, with little comprehension of the means to your madness, all I can say is both to consider simplifying that, and to use physical DPDT 6 legged toggle switches for that [can describe wiring if needed]..
Digital loop reversers such as a HexFrogJuicer will only work during DCC sessions..Analog toggle switches work for both systems..
What I've done and many like you have done is to bite the bullet, mothball the old stuff and juzz go all DCC and fuggeddaboudit !!!
You can then try your hand at adding decoders if you like..I never did. I got lots a old DC from the mid 1950s on out.. When DCC came in I went right to new stuff, owning only 3 steam, 1 diesel HO, DCCSound, Bmann/ NCE PowerCab throttle..
~ As your friend, I think you're making the hobby more difficult than need be to get a sense of RRing...
Or, maybe I'm failing to grasp your viewpoint of it all. I'm guilty of having done that before. *M*


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think you might be into what he was thinking maybe. I was just thinking keep it simple and start with an isolated track of dcc.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*Oh my stars !! Mea Culpa !*! I mixed up the *OPer* with *Severn* in my post #12 !!
*Sorry bout dat ! *I should have directed it toward *rsv1ho* !!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

IMO, this is a disaster waiting to happen. You'll need to create and run a checklist before you even plug anything in.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Remember Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. Maybe not next week, or even next month.....but....

*The Big Thing is to never apply DC and DCC power to the rails concurrently.* After that, you can minimize any unwanted/unfortunate results by being vigilant and cutting off one power and fixing things.

Your locomotive's can motor needs DC current only. That's the decoder's job. If you put a DC only locomotive, sans decoder, on DCC-powered rails, the alternating current will make the can motor sing, squeal, groan, and moan, which is terrible. It was for me when I tried it. Just the once. But that's not the worst of it. The worst of it is that the can motor is heating up with the frequency of zeros and ones embedded in the DCC signal because it takes the juice, but it can't do anything with it. It just vibrates, and vibrating = heat.

For DC, it's polarity. For DCC, it's phase. DCC IS VERY MUCH an AC current. It happens to be digital and have 'zero stretching', which is what gives the decoder its marching orders. It isn't a sinusoidal waveform, such as you might expect to see on an oscilloscope. Instead, it's vertical cliffs and rises, but with varying gaps between those.

There is no variable DC in DCC. It's full-time, full force, and meant to be in a very narrow range of voltage. Where the DC becomes variable is when the DCC AC is rectified by the decoder and when the decoder metes out variable voltage to the can motor and to the lights and sound amplifier. So, yes, there actually is variable DC, but only as outputs from the decoder. Not from the rails, or dialed by you at the throttle.

You MUST switch between the two types of power using a DPDT. It must be center off to prevent problems. See my bold print at top.

The spread in DCC systems comes from two characteristics: expandability and power handling. Well, maybe also address memory. Each decoder gets a 'name'. For almost everyone, we have locomotives with unique cab numbers decaled on them. We use those and programme those cab numbers as names for each decoder. The more expensive systems will remember more names, but also be able to run more of them at one time by providing more power throughput to the rails. As well, the more expensive systems tend to be more expandable by adding components. The basic units are often 'dead-end'...not expandable.

You should get at least 2.5 amps from your power supply (included or a separate purchase...CHECK!) so that you can safely run at least two sound-equipped locomotives, or two sets of 'consisted' sound locomotives, each towing more than four or five cars.


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks everybody, great discussion and your filling in my blanks regarding DCC.

But to illustrate my problem:

































































There is no way that I'm ever going to convert all those to DCC, hence the need for a dual system. Add to that four drawers of hangar queens and better grade locomotives. Amazing though several of those American 4-4-0's have decoders stuck in them. They all get ran, several a day. I keep a log.










How about this? - Picture snatched from an ebay ad.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

*OP:*

My opinion is:
*You DON'T want to try this.*
Simply too much trouble.

I'll guess that 80-90% of the DC locos you have probably are NOT "convertible" to dcc without A LOT of time and trouble, and expense.

Again, you can really mess things up getting DC power crossed with dcc.

Options that you might consider:

Convert the existing railroad to dcc (in its entirety), and build a _SEPARATE small railroad_ for your DC stuff.
Leave the existing railroad as DC, and build a separate railroad for your dcc stuff.
Convert the existing railroad to dcc, but SEPARATE and ISOLATE a small section of it for the DC equipment. The two systems "should never meet" -- no crossovers, etc. No interchange of equipment.

With all the DC stuff you have, it might be best to just "stay DC" for good.
Or.. sell "the stuff"...


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

What an amazing collection!. Wow! I have maybe 26 locomotives, and am slowing considerably. But, I started when DCC was rising rapidly in popularity, so all I have is DCC/sound.

I tend to look at this as a triage problem. I believe you like all of your locomotives and would like to have full use of them, ideally converted and run either DC or DCC as you wish. As you know by now, the dual nature of modern decoders allows you to do that. But not DC-only locomotives on DCCtracks generally, and never to mix the two systems active at any one time on any one railroad.

The received wisdom to which I have been a part when reading and offering advice is generally what you were offered by JAlbert above. At some point, you have to tell some of the locomotives that they were right all along and that only some of them were your favourites. The others, not so much. What you should do is take a representative sample of your favourite types, pick the ones that run well, and convert them as and when you are able. The rest should stay DC and run on a separate layout or on one that can be switched. 

If you take an old favourite that current runs poorly, it will very likely do much worse under the direction of a decoder. Not necessarily, but it happens so often that it is one of those 'received wisdoms' in the hobby.

If you elect to convert even 1/4 of your current stable, you have enough work to last you the rest of your life if you still want to continue to improve your layout, or build another, or build some structure kits, or just play trains as well.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

If my collection were that large, I would likely pick a dozen or so of my very favorite locomotives and buy them new as DCC sound on-board models. The detail and running quality of today's models are way above what standards were in the 80's and early 90's.

There were only two locomotives in my past collection that I would consider converting to DCC because they are no longer available, and those were two Green Diamond Illinois Central GP-35's. That would be quite a novelty running a double header GP-35 on a European railway.

The rest of the collection would have been sold off or spent the rest of their lives on a shelf as yours are doing.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are several popular DCC systems on the market.
NCE as you have found, MRC, and Digitrax are the most popular.
Any one would be suitable for your layout. The way the
different controls operate is the factor you would want to
consider. Check them all out and see which feels 'right'
in your hand.

The 'white' switch on your panel changes the polarity of
the isolated section, the same as your FW/REV switch.
Are you saying that one switch controls
the various 'isolated reverse loops' polarity at the same time? 
I doubt that system could be used for DCC. Here's how the DCC automatic
reverse loop controller works: 
When loco front wheels cross the insulated joiner entering an isolated
section there is a 'short' circuit. The controller senses this and
rapidly flips the phase (polarity) of the iso section, thus
matching the phase of the main track. The loco
continues without pause or blink of it's light. When it reaches
the 'exit' of the iso section, the wheels again cause a short when
they cross the insulated joiners and again the controller flips the
phase of the iso section to match the main track. Thus the loco continues it's travel. You
do nothing, it's all automatic. However, you must have one controller for each
iso section.

I am sure that most of our members stare in AWE at your
collection of locomotives. I have never seen so many in
one place, even at very large club layouts. Needless to
say, converting them all to DCC would be a massive
undertaking. Your layout is very complex, from an electrical
standpoint. The several
'reverse' loops and fleet of DC locos that you have may
make it advisable, as others have suggested,
that you consider an entirely separate layout for a DCC operation
and save the present one to run your DC locos.

Whatever your decision, we'll all be glad to help you in any
way we can.

Don


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks all, each of you has given me food for thought and I would like to acknowledge each one individually, but let me just condense.

Regarding my collection. Many, perhaps half were non-running or ill running locomotives bought on the cheap. It's what I do, buy fixer-uppers and repair them. Really not very difficult as you all know, clean the wheels and commutators and you have an operational engine. It's those steamer drives - valve gears, quartering, side rods that give headaches. 

The layout. I'm pretty sure that I can make DC and DCC work together but ya definitely not simultaneously. Seems like it would be quite easy to separate each system if properly switched. So far I haven't fried anything after a life-time in electronics and electricity. But, yes, you never know until you cut and try.

Thanks for the reverse loop lesson regards DCC. But, if I do do this I won't include the reverse loops. Just block off the two outer main lines and make that DC/DCC. I still may add some acreage to the layout and dedicate it DCC. Still planning. 

So, no one has chimed in with your DCC systems, I like this one because...............


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It is very important that with a redesign of your layout that there can
be no way that the DC and DCC systems can 'touch'. For example,
a loco running on DC oval A, runs thru a turnout onto DCC oval B. The
loco wheels and power pickups would short the two systems 
together. There are other ways that an electrical mishap could
occur. That is the reason we strongly suggest a DCC OR DC
DPDT switch so that both systems are not on at the
same time.

Don


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks Don, J Albert and all.

Could it be so simple as just leaving the power switches off on my DC systems..........My preferred method would be to switch off each DC power supply at the line track level interface along with wiring to each block totally isolating one from the other while keeping the existing track wiring in place. It would be the equivalent of just physically removing each DC power supply. I will have to schematic it out on paper first.

Presently, all of my Bachmann Spectrum engines are DC/DCC plus a few others I have acquired over time. Also I just bought this DC/DCC Bachmann Prairie which is lost in the mail somewhere between me and the seller. So, the ship is launched.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Don't forget the operating checklist you'll need before each session.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Deleted by me


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

rsv1ho said:


> Could it be so simple...





DonR said:


> That is the reason we strongly suggest a DCC OR DC
> DPDT switch so that both systems are not on at the
> same time.


That's as simple as it gets. 

The main breaker box in my house can be fed by a generator. The breaker box has a "lockout" switch that only allows it to get power from the power company _OR_ the generator. There is _NO WAY_ it can get power from both. That's what you have to do, IMO. 

Internal combustion or electric... no hybrids.

Still, as others have said, when you throw the switch all locos should be derailed.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Well... I admit I thought of just *one more* thing for the OPer.
~ Obtain/set up a 2 socket only, 110v AC metal fuse box with the modern auto-flip switches in it..
One fuse is wired to the *DC* *power pack's* 110v plug..the other to the *DCC's power source AC plug*..Mount box in a convenient, safely insulated from any human shock potential, place near your throttles..
THEN: Visually you will always want to see *one switch up (on)*, and *one switch down (off)* in the fuse box...Have the power to the fuse box come from a power strip with a *red-lit* on/off switch [into wall socket of course]..If both 'fuses' are in up position ('on') you *do not* turn power strip 'on' until either one is in down position (*off*)..
~ But I still say go all DCC with a simplified plan and cut your emotional losses, your attachment to the old stuff....


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The problem with that analogy is that everything in the house can operate on either grid power or standby power. The same cannot be said for DC and DCC locomotives.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think MichaelE has the best advice. Quite simply, what it sounds like you're trying to "preserve" in DCC is part of the basic functionality. You don't need the blocks or switches on your reverse loop.

But here's the thing. I see all of those locos... and I see a track plan that can accommodate maybe a half dozen or so simultaneously. Yes, you HAVE a lot of locos, but how often do you actually run 99% of them? Add in the risk of cooking something (either a DC loco or a DCC system) if you accidentally mix power supplies, and I don't think you have a choice. Either stick with DC, or convert to DCC and convert your favorites. What you're really trying to hang on to is the possibility that you might some day want to run one of those that isn't DCC, despite the fact that you probably never will.

As far as DCC sets -- any of the basic ones from the Big 3 would be fine for that size layout -- MRC Prodigy Express2, Digitrax Zephyr, or NCE Power Cab. Any of those provide enough power and functions to run a layout like yours.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> The problem with that analogy is that everything in the house can operate on either grid power or standby power. The same cannot be said for DC and DCC locomotives.


True. But my point was... the "lockout" switch.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

With dual throttles, even a DPDT switch is not enough, it would take a 4PDT switch and a lot of wiring. It would certainly be a wiring challenge to do it all safely. But still leaving just one DC only loco on the track when you switch to DCC stands a good chance to wiping out the loco and you may not be lucky enough to hear is "sing" only get to see it release the magic smoke!


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Regarding which DCC system - I suggest you go online and look at the manuals for each of the 3 main starter systems - NCE, MRC, and Digitrax and see which manual is easiest for you to understand. There is a bit of a learning curve going from DC to DCC. I found the NCE easiest to understand and use. It may be different for you.


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## mrmustang1933 (Mar 30, 2015)

rsv1ho said:


> Say I want to keep the functionality of my present DC layout intact and add DCC and swap between the two systems. I have a great many DC locos, and not to many DCC locos. Presently I run three blocks and five reverse loops, four of which are within a figure 8. (Don't ask me how.)
> 
> Can I maintain my present all Atlas controllers and selectors and place the switches in the center neutral position, place the block switches in either the A or B position and wire in a switched DCC system and run it that way?
> 
> ...





rsv1ho said:


> Say I want to keep the functionality of my present DC layout intact and add DCC and swap between the two systems. I have a great many DC locos, and not to many DCC locos. Presently I run three blocks and five reverse loops, four of which are within a figure 8. (Don't ask me how.)
> 
> Can I maintain my present all Atlas controllers and selectors and place the switches in the center neutral position, place the block switches in either the A or B position and wire in a switched DCC system and run it that way?
> 
> ...


Find a MRC AD 150 DCC system... Find 1 on EBAY as they don't make them new anymore... I have 2 of these systems... You can run DC and DCC with this system all at the same time. PLUS... When you run DC engines ( No decoder), you can run 3-4 locos in consists... As the AD150 system computer adjusts for the increased voltage needed... 
THANX


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks, looked into it. Parts/pieces of it are on ebay presently, looks like a controller and a power supply. Got a list of what I would need? Is it compatible with my existing Bachmann DCC systems?

Thanks - Bob


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

rsv1ho said:


> Thanks, looked into it. Parts/pieces of it are on ebay presently, looks like a controller and a power supply. Got a list of what I would need? Is it compatible with my existing Bachmann DCC systems?
> 
> Thanks - Bob


You did mention you have years of experience in electronics? How about relay logic? Suppose you were to use a center off DPDT switch to control a bank of relays (off one pole) and power to your DC and DCC control cabs (off the other). The relays would control the various points on the layout that need to be changed from DC to DCC configuration, such as reverse loop controllers, etc. If you're into 'trons, you probably are aware of the concept of PWM (Pulse Width Modulation). Apparently nobody's mentioned it here, but that's how DCC actually works. DC pulses of varying widths are read by the decoder as 0s and 1s, which then converts the power developed in the pulsed DC (it's not actually AC) into an analog DC the motor can consume without indigestion at a voltage level determined by the digitally encoded signal from the controller. I concur with others here that checklists are MANDATORY, as well as accurate and cross checked drawings of your relay board wiring.
You sound like you're mechanically and electronically adept, so you probably wouldn't find installing simple (no sound) DCC decoders in HO sized locos difficult or challenging. Plenty of YouTube videos on the topic. Still, you need to make some choices and not waste your time on marginal runners or ancient open frame motors. Remember, we're looking for really precise control of loco behavior here, so kludgy motors won't do.
DCC systems? I went with an NCE Power Cab after much head scratching vs Digitax. The good folks at Tony's Train Exchange gave me an hour of free consultation over the phone, and I feel I made the right choice, though if I were planning a huge rail empire, I might revisit that decision. I'm now embarking on DIY DCC++, which is much more compact and affordable, and can be run on Wifi or Bluetooth. If you're electronically adept, you might consider that as an option, but do your homework first! Again, lots of YouTube out there, which gets deployed faster and more up to date than text media. Sounds like you have quite an adventure coming down the pike.
Y'all have fun now, hear?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

While a bank of relays with the right wiring would work, think of the damage one miss firing relay would do, it might take out the DCC control station. Also both DC and DCC system would need to off/disconnected before any switch to prevent any momentary connection between the 2 as relays do not operate instantaneously. Separate is the only safe way.


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Yes, relay logic we British guy guys use them in our vintage MG's to keep the systems from frying.

20 years in the Navy maintaining and instructing using flight and shipboard trainers I learned a lot. Started out with ball/disk-wheel/disk integrators the size of refrigerators ended up with a chip performing all the functions.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Back when Army surplus stores actually had surplus gear, I bought a couple of "Air Data" computers, lots of gears and a ball and disk integrator!


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Well, the DC/DCC Bachmann finally made it, snail mail USPS. 

All happy I ran it on my DC only track. A disappointment would be an understatement. Yes, there is engine noise and a bell both anemic in volume and clarity. But at least the sound travels with the locomotive unlike the fixed under track stereo speaker I use with my dated MRC "Sound and Power" system. But that will blow your ears off if turned up loud enough and with a more authentic chuff, chuff sound. 

. Additionally the DCC locomotive is balky, not smooth and the pilot truck derails with the slightest provocation. My other three DC only Bachmann's show no such tendency. Maybe the new one just has to be broken in and a DCC system will fix the low volume/clarity problem.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

> a DCC system will fix the low volume/clarity problem


Yes, with a DCC system you can adjust volume. On the Bachmann's you can adjust the volume of the bell, whistle, chuff sound individually as well as adjust the overall volume.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

While there may be specific reasons for your
new loco's poor operations, it is true that 
some do seem to smooth out after some
run time. 

If the derails are at the same 'spots' every time
there could be a kink or uneven track. If the
derails are just anywhere, check the support
of the pilot truck...does it swivel smoothly?
Can you add a small weight to it?

Don


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks all.

I put it back in the box until I get a system that will utilize all of it's capabilities. But, I decided to get out some of my other DC/DCC locomotives and run them again, mostly Bachmann Spectrums. I believe these are older DCC locomotives that I bought NIB a couple of years ago. They all run nicely and do not lose their pilot trucks like the one I just received. Perhaps the tracks width is slightly off, or I might have to weight it a bit. Love to run those Spectrums, they all run extremely well and the fit and finish is first rate, the pictures don't do them justice.



















Love this little 4-4-0.


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## SB2016 (Nov 13, 2021)

rsv1ho said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> I put it back in the box until I get a system that will utilize all of it's capabilities. But, I decided to get out some of my other DC/DCC locomotives and run them again, mostly Bachmann Spectrums. I believe these are older DCC locomotives that I bought NIB a couple of years ago. They all run nicely and do not lose their pilot trucks like the one I just received. Perhaps the tracks width is slightly off, or I might have to weight it a bit. Love to run those Spectrums, they all run extremely well and the fit and finish is first rate, the pictures don't do them justice.
> 
> ...


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks for that. With winter coming up signaling - Train Time - I will be getting back into it. Nice set-up that you have there.

Bob


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Hello Bob (rsv1ho),

I'll share with you my set up on my layout. I have an N-scale modular layout, 6' x 23' overall. It consists of an outer main, an inner main, and a yard on the near side of the layout. Basically 3 separate blocks, and 3 separate bus lines, insulated from each other, but still connected with crossover turnouts (outer to inner, and inner to yard). Originally powered with 3 separate DC throttles (one for each line), I was planning on going with DCC in the near future, back at that time. And of course, I did.

After purchasing an NCE wireless setup, I built a new control panel for the throttles. Adding the new DCC throttle, I reduced the 3 DC throttles down to just one. With the magic of Double-Pole Double-Throw Center-Off electrical switches (as a few others have already alluded to), I can select either DCC power for any of the 3 lines, or DC power for any of the same three lines. I chose to reduce down to one DC throttle, because as I slowly converted locos to DCC, any additional DC throttles would seem redundant.

Here's a few pics to illustrate.......................








On the left is my NCE system. On the right is a GML DC throttle.









The upper center of my panel has a regular on/off electrical switch w/indicator light that lights up when the power is on. In the lower center are my 3 DPDTCO switches. One for the yard, one for the inner main, and one for the outer main. Flip any one of them to the left to select DCC, or any one of them to the right to select straight DC. Since I now have most of my N-scale fleet decoderized, I rarely run DC anymore on this layout. But it's nice to have the capability to run it if I so desire.

My layout doesn't have any reverse loops, so I didn't have to deal with that. But auto-reversers make short work of that task when going with DCC. Since they work automatically, you can run your trains seamlessly without even thinking about the reverse loops anymore. However, just as in DC, just make sure your entire train fits within the reverse loop.

You may wish to revamp and simplify your wiring and control panel similar to mine and others if you start converting to DCC. I'd like to say that simplified wiring makes wiring problems much easier to trace, but I haven't had a bit of problems in the last 10 years or so that my current panel has been operational. So I can't really say at this point if they are easier to trace or not. But rest assured, if a problem ever does pop up someday, I'll let you know.


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

rsv1ho said:


> Yes, relay logic we British guy guys use them in our vintage MG's to keep the systems from frying.
> 
> 20 years in the Navy maintaining and instructing using flight and shipboard trainers I learned a lot. Started out with ball/disk-wheel/disk integrators the size of refrigerators ended up with a chip performing all the functions.


Ahoy, shipmate!
Missed this post back in the day. I did four years three months twelve days and four hours in the USN as a TD (TraDevMan) Training Device Technician, mostly running (and repairing) a radar interception trainer for the F4 Phantom. Ancient vaccum tube analog antique with the occasional updated board boasting a transistor or two. Meanwhile the birds were flying the digital AWG-10 radar.
Congratulations on your Power Cab system. Piece of cake, ain't it? How's your decoderizing coming along? HO is easy, but N scale can be challenging. I have some of both. When are you going to jump into DCC++? Aren't Arduinos fun? Amazing stuff. Run your trains from your phone or tablet via WiFi or Bluetooth. Have fun!


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks Paul, Beautiful control board, nicely laid out. Gives me something to reference this winter when I start on this. Love the exposed fuse. Spare or live? 

And VTGuy, yes shipmates, TraDevMan here also. Enlisted in 1956, retired in 1975. NAS Pensacola, NAS Jacksonville, Memphis, NWC Newport, NAS Oceana, NATC Patuxent River and a few places inbetween. Came in with vaccum tubes, and the 2F23 flight simulator, left with chips and six degrees of freedom. Retired to Federal Civil Service and continued doing the same thing. Model trains and planes just a continuation. 

Spent a couple of years up there.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

rsv1ho said:


> Thanks Paul, Beautiful control board, nicely laid out. Gives me something to reference this winter when I start on this. Love the exposed fuse. Spare or live?


Thanks, glad you like it. 

Live fuse. Started out behind the panel, but then relocated it to the front. Got tired of getting down on the floor and crawling behind the panel to replace it. And that was back in the days when it was actually easy to do!


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

rsv1ho said:


> And VTGuy, yes shipmates, TraDevMan here also. Enlisted in 1956, retired in 1975. NAS Pensacola, NAS Jacksonville, Memphis, NWC Newport, NAS Oceana, NATC Patuxent River and a few places inbetween. Came in with vaccum tubes, and the 2F23 flight simulator, left with chips and six degrees of freedom.


Ahh, the 2F23. When I went through TD "A" in 1970, it was still the main course in the banquet. Then FASOTRAGRULANT Key West and an old tired 15C4A radar trainer in support of VF101's ACM training detachment. The instructors were all Top Gun grads and they did their best to run the RAG as if it were "Top Gun East". By the time my EAOS rolled around, I had my commercial pilot license and multi engine rating, courtesy of the Memphis and Key West flying clubs, and was hot to fly for a living, so making a career in the Nav was not too appealing. Fly, I did, but never hit the big time. Lot of fun, but not much prosperity. Been dabbling with model railroading off and on since my eyes took me out of flying. Mostly fooling around with the technical stuff, as I'm kind of limited for space to build a layout. Been exploring DCC++ and having fun.
Awesome collection you have there, and clearly has absorbed a lot of TLC. Bravo Zulu, Chief!


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## old-timer (11 mo ago)

Yes, you can. I have two concentric loops, an interchange track, and a program siding test track. I too have DC locomotives that I continue to use. I spent some time developing a fail-safe interchange system made of simple parts and simple electrical logic that works based on the characteristics of both DC & DCC. Isolation is the key, and the interchange is the answer. It's strictly a DIY project if you're up to it.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the DC portion and the the DCC portion either need to be seperated, as in no electrical connection ..
or
run one at a time with DPDT switch [preferably centre off] or similar


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