# 4-8-4 "Operates on 22" curves"...yeah right..



## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

So I am now having problems again with my 4-8-4's. The issue this time is that the locomotives derail on my 22" radius curves for no reason. I made sure that the track was nice and smooth and level (that is, if I was using EZ track, that the rail joiners did not slip under the rails or over and if it was power-lock, that he track pieces were properly connected). 

So do 4-8-4's really "operate" under 22" radius curves or is this a lie? Or maybe they CAN, but at low speeds? The manufacturers never make it clear what we have to do to have these locos run properly on said curves.


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## ssgt (Jan 8, 2013)

are all the drivers flanged? or are the center sets blind?


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

i dont understand what you're asking me. ill just take a pic of the loco's wheel sets and show you so you can tell what it is and what not


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## ssgt (Jan 8, 2013)

The flanges are the raised parts of the wheels that keep the train on the rails.Blind drivers are drive wheels without flanges.On most large locomotives the center set or 2 center sets of wheels are blind drivers.


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## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

I have a Beckmann Norfolk & Western Class J 4-8-4. Its drive wheels bind on 22” EZ track. I went to 26” track on the main loop. I suspect that 24” track would have worked.
Bob


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

So here's one of the loco's. My GS4 4-8-4 War Baby (or is it a GS6? Idk lol)


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

What is the general recommendation for 4-8-4's? Because CLEARLY 22" radius ain't cutting it, Bachmann! (liars!)


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

ssgt said:


> The flanges are the raised parts of the wheels that keep the train on the rails.Blind drivers are drive wheels without flanges.On most large locomotives the center set or 2 center sets of wheels are blind drivers.


They have a small flange on all the drive wheels.


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## ssgt (Jan 8, 2013)

jjb727 said:


> They have a small flange on all the drive wheels.


That is probably why you're having the problems on the 22" radius.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I can clearly see your problem in the last picture!
Get the trains off the carpet!


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

why? is that?


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

Also, further observation shows that these flanged drivers seemed to jump off the track for no reason (and if there is a reason, I dont know much about it to understand it yet). Ill record a video of the situation and post it here.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

HO, N trains + Carpet = RIP


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

I don't have any other surface besides carpet. BTW, why is carpet such a problem for steam locomotives? Ill test it again tomorrow night, but first I'll post the pictures of the wheels so that you can see how they look.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

Ok, so here are the pictures of the first locomotive im testing. 

GS4 (or GS6?) War Baby by Bachmann (Dual Mode Chip running on DC or DCC)


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

NIMT said:


> HO, N trains + Carpet = RIP



lmao wow, nice response lol


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## D1566 (Jun 8, 2012)

jjb727 said:


> I don't have any other surface besides carpet. BTW, why is carpet such a problem for steam locomotives?


Bits of carpet fibres end up wound around axles and valve gear, it will end in tears


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

The big problem I have is that this apartment is completely filled with nothing but carpet. Very few areas are actually tile or concrete. The outside I may be able to do, but its way too cold over here (southern California) for me to be outside. 


Diesels are not affect by carpet though, I can always run those whenever I want.


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## wsorfan4003 (Jan 14, 2013)

NIMT said:


> HO, N trains + Carpet = RIP


It's very true, I have seen one of my friend's trains totally consumed by the clutches of carpet, totally wound up in there...


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

but i just looked at the wheels. nothing on'em


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Ya better look closer Because I can see it in almost every picture!
Diesel or Steam it doesn't matter, both die from lint!


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

jjb727 said:


> So I am now having problems again with my 4-8-4's. The issue this time is that the locomotives derail on my 22" radius curves for no reason. I made sure that the track was nice and smooth and level (that is, if I was using EZ track, that the rail joiners did not slip under the rails or over and if it was power-lock, that he track pieces were properly connected).
> 
> So do 4-8-4's really "operate" under 22" radius curves or is this a lie? Or maybe they CAN, but at low speeds? The manufacturers never make it clear what we have to do to have these locos run properly on said curves.



You have my sympathy, last year i bought a Bachmann GS-4 item # 50201 with DCC. Well, it too derailed on 22" because the pilot truck was faulty. Then it suddenly stopped running before i could fix the derailing problem. It ran great on straightaways for it's 2 hour life span but i'll never buy more Bachmann products. I'm in no hurry to fix mine pretty much junk anyway.

good luck with it.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

damn...my vision sucks! O__O


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

oh i should mention that i have 2 other Bachmann GS-4s i bought almost 20 years ago. One is sounding pretty raspy the other seems to still be alright and neither ever had derailment problems even on 18". So this makes me think that with Bachmann it's a hit or miss. the new one i bought last year cost $160 not worth it IMO.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

ATHEARNFAN said:


> You have my sympathy, last year i bought a Bachmann GS-4 item # 50201 with DCC. Well, it too derailed on 22" because the pilot truck was faulty. Then it suddenly stopped running before i could fix the derailing problem. It ran great on straightaways for it's 2 hour life span but i'll never buy more Bachmann products. I'm in no hurry to fix mine pretty much junk anyway.
> 
> good luck with it.


i think they gave up on those units rather than improving them. I'm losing faith on bachmann.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

ATHEARNFAN said:


> oh i should mention that i have 2 other Bachmann GS-4s i bought almost 20 years ago. One is sounding pretty raspy the other seems to still be alright and neither ever had derailment problems even on 18". So this makes me think that with Bachmann it's a hit or miss. the new one i bought last year cost $160 not worth it IMO.


Well I want one of the Niagara's they made before they're completely gone. I don't have money to be buying top of the line "Paragon 5" units from Broadway Limited (yeah, only Paragon 3, but im sarcastic lol). What's the most affordable manufacturer to buy 4-8-4's from?


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

jjb727 said:


> Well I want one of the Niagara's they made before they're completely gone. I don't have money to be buying top of the line "Paragon 5" units from Broadway Limited (yeah, only Paragon 3, but im sarcastic lol). What's the most affordable manufacturer to buy 4-8-4's from?



If it's too affordable then it's more than likely junk (bachmann). you'll just have to shop around. I like the Genesis line i doubt it's the most affordable though and i really don't know what's available now.


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

*Bachmann Yea or Nay!!*

Sorry jjb about your 4-8-4 problem. Yeah the carpet, as Sean has stated, is the deathnel for any diesel or steam locomotive...even if you can't see it its there!! I have 2 4-8-4's that don't get a great deal of run time because they just don't perform to standards. Though cosmetically they look great, they don't pull for doodoo, look sluggish going through both 18-22 radius curves....why do I still have them...cuz they look damn good...that is until you look inside of them...WOW!! Pancake motors suck big time and Bowser motor upgrades are no longer available on ebay. I know you have DCC but even those don't seem to have the pedigree of Genesis or even old AHM/Rivarossi. You pay that much money for a Loco, you expect it to run forever!! Bachmann does it again!!:thumbsdown:


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## D1566 (Jun 8, 2012)

I have a Bachmann GS-4, Sound fitted, it seems to run pretty smoothly ... in straight lines, doesn't like curves or switches too much though - the leading truck seems to be very lightly sprung? Its on my list of things to do to fix it.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

At least Bachmann has a good warranty program. 

As much as MTH, BLI, Athearn, Proto, etc. costs, why can't they have a lifetime warranty?


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

ATHEARNFAN said:


> You have my sympathy, last year i bought a Bachmann GS-4 item # 50201 with DCC. Well, it too derailed on 22" because the pilot truck was faulty. Then it suddenly stopped running before i could fix the derailing problem. It ran great on straightaways for it's 2 hour life span but i'll never buy more Bachmann products. I'm in no hurry to fix mine pretty much junk anyway.
> 
> good luck with it.


Have you contacted them to get it replaced?



jjb727 said:


> I don't have any other surface besides carpet. BTW, why is carpet such a problem for steam locomotives? Ill test it again tomorrow night, but first I'll post the pictures of the wheels so that you can see how they look.


You can get a sheet of blue or pink foam board 4x8 from Lowe's for cheap. Paint it black or green and bam you have a smooth flat surface that's lightweight yet reasonably sturdy.


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## Midnight85 (Jun 2, 2012)

I wish I had seen this thread earlier. I just bought a NOS Bachmann 2-10-4 steamer and my curves are 22".


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

I currently have a Bachmann 2-6-0, a 2-6-2, a 2-8-4, a 2-8-0, a 4-8-4, and a Spectrum 4-6-2. Aside from an issue with the smoke unit on the 2-6-2, I've never had any troubles at all with any of them, or any of my Bachmann diesels, either, for that matter. All of them run perfectly well on 22" radius curves, even the big Northern, which is the Santa Fe 3784, and it absolutely dwarfs all my other locos except my Big Boy and Challengers. Hell, If I'm careful, I can get that Northern around 18" curves and turnouts, even with the two eight-wheel bogies on the tender.


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## Midnight85 (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks, that eases my mind.


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## union pacific 844 (Jan 29, 2013)

i have that 4-8-4 in the aft version i had the same thing happen i loosened the leading and trailing truck screws a little run fine on 22" curves and 18"curves now full speed to and trains hate Capet get it off the floor! run bachmann 4-8-4s all the time i have 4 of them im in the market for more bachmann 4-8-4s =)


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

ATHEARNFAN said:


> If it's too affordable then it's more than likely junk (bachmann). you'll just have to shop around. I like the Genesis line i doubt it's the most affordable though and i really don't know what's available now.


Well, Im not talking "pennies" affordable, I'm talking affordable to the point where I dont have to spend over $250 for an engine.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

rrgrassi said:


> At least Bachmann has a good warranty program.
> 
> As much as MTH, BLI, Athearn, Proto, etc. costs, why can't they have a lifetime warranty?


coz that would make too much sense -______-


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

union pacific 844 said:


> i have that 4-8-4 in the aft version i had the same thing happen i loosened the leading and trailing truck screws a little run fine on 22" curves and 18"curves now full speed to and trains hate Capet get it off the floor! run bachmann 4-8-4s all the time i have 4 of them im in the market for more bachmann 4-8-4s =)


Damn, never thought about doing that! I'll try loosening the lead and rear trucks a bit. The only problem i have sometimes is that the drawbar sometimes makes the loco get lifted up from the lead truck. Also, it seems that the lead truck continuously derails itself after a straight re-railer track and for NO REASON.


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## union pacific 844 (Jan 29, 2013)

it does that when its to tight bachmann tights leading and trailing truck screws a little two much some times


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

well then it could be that this one is having that problem. ill untighten the screws a bit. but it needs weight


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

jjb727 said:


> Well, Im not talking "pennies" affordable, I'm talking affordable to the point where I dont have to spend over $250 for an engine.



I recomend finding one at a show/swapmeet and take your chances. Nowdays you can get super good deals and vendors are more than happy to cooperate. I always see lots of all kinds of Bachmanns new and used. 4-8-4s in decent shape for about $50-$75. New Spectrums are more ofcourse.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

yea. ill try an indoor swapmeet


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

jjb727 said:


> yea. ill try an indoor swapmeet


I don't think I.H.C. makes a 4-8-4 but for the money they are great. I have several from the mountain to the camelback to the modern american some are over 15 years old and all still run smooth and strong like brand new.
Mine were made in Slovenia i don't know if they are still made there or made in China now.
good luck


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

I actually wanted an unpainted Berkshire so that I can make my own railroad. I already have the designs of the text in my head. I also need an unpainted caboose.


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

i have a undecorated Berk it's a rivarossi needs a moter gonna make it a NKP


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

nice loco!


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## ATHEARNFAN (Oct 13, 2011)

thanks i bought it used at a swapmeet about 20 yrs ago only $60 ran great until recently  too bad it finnally went kaput


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## union pacific 844 (Jan 29, 2013)

any luck with your gs4 war baby 4-8-4?


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

i havent played with my trains today, but ill let you know. thanks for the concern!


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## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

RT_Coker said:


> I have a Beckmann Norfolk & Western Class J 4-8-4. Its drive wheels bind on 22” EZ track. I went to 26” track on the main loop. I suspect that 24” track would have worked.
> Bob


Update just for the record. I can now run my 4-8-4 on 22” EZ track. It apparently needed a lot of break in time to loosen up.
Bob


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

JJ look at your rails where they join. If one is not perfectly square with the next one the flange on the wheel can hook onto the edge of the rail and climb. This is where the derailment can happen. Run your fingers along the sides of the rails to see if anything catches your skin. Pete


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

It happens on mostly on the terminal track, right as its about to end.The lead truck has not yet left the terminal piece and it STILL derails -_-)


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## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

I run both of my Bachmann 4-8-4's on 22 curves, no issues. I've even ran a 2-10-2 through one! My suggestion, only if you have a small file, is to run it and hold it upside down, and file drivers on axles 2 and 3. Just run it at slow speed and check often as possible. Make sure it is in forward.


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## jjb727 (Apr 13, 2012)

THE TYCO MAN said:


> I run both of my Bachmann 4-8-4's on 22 curves, no issues. I've even ran a 2-10-2 through one! My suggestion, only if you have a small file, is to run it and hold it upside down, and file drivers on axles 2 and 3. Just run it at slow speed and check often as possible. Make sure it is in forward.


You mean that I have to file down the flanges of the two middle wheels on both sides, correct?


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been noticing that alot of my engines & cars (steam & diesel) make some serious noise as their going through the black bridges, the rerailers & some of the switches, diesels seen to make it through fine but still noisy, but the steamers loose the front or rear truck(mostly front) & some of the cars derail.
Been playing with my bachmann 4-8-4 that shim on the rear truck seems to have done the job, front truck is still an issue, even just putting it on the track it's just so loose get the front wheels on the rears pop off????? 
It seems to roll the 22" curves just fine. Rich.


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