# Heat Kinks help please



## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

I have been doing much reading on Sticky threads here. A post I came across asked about building layout in garage. The poster asked about heat extremes of 90 degrees. He was answered that one could get "heat kinks". I had not thought of this.
The shed I am building my layout in can get well over 100 degrees in summer. 
So far I only have layout on wood 48 inches by 144 inches with 1 inch foam. The track I plan on is Atlas code 100 HO scale on cork.
Should I not glue cork? Should I not glue track to cork? 
What is heat kink and am I in danger of damaging track?
Thanks


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

If you google "hot weather train rails", you will find images of extreme conditions.

Basically, if your track is nailed down with no gaps between sections, and it heats up, it expands with no place to go lengthwise. SO it pushes sideways.

Two ways to avoid it.
Build layout on hottest day, or
leave some gaps in the rails.
Not giant gaps, just about 1/16" to 1/8".


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Some members from down under call it a shed.
Some of their sheds can be really huge, like 20' x 40' and over.

I see your not from there.
Tell me more about your shed.
So, how big is yours?
Wood? Aluminum?
Is there a window in it? 2?
Is there enough room to work in it with the door closed?

By adding an exhaust fan you can reduce that 100* some.
They do sell small AC units too.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Sure Ed. My shed is ten feet wide by 14 feet deep. Stick built (2x4). I built it in 2011. Gamble roof. No windows. Double swing doors about 6 feet wide. Not insulated nor wallboard.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Tried to post picture. I like the exhaust fan idea. Had not thought about that. I wasn't sure how much of a problem heat is or might be.
Thanks


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Andy57 said:


> Tried to post picture. I like the exhaust fan idea. Had not thought about that. I wasn't sure how much of a problem heat is or might be.
> Thanks


Here is a man from down under I think. Edit, yes he is.
See what he did if you want.

A 100* is HOT ! Anyway you can reduce that some would be nice. Unless you like hot, some do, I don't. 

In this video he said in his shed is 110*? I think he said that, or it was 101*? Either way look at him I see the hot on him!
Now what he did might work, though some may not like the visual effects on their layouts.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks for the video. The heat pulled his nails. I like how he used screws on curves to allow for movement, but I don't like the look of screws in the timbers. Many things to consider.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Another attempt at photo of shed.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Andy57 said:


> Another attempt at photo of shed.


My copy and paste for pictures.

What I do to post a picture,
1,When your typing your thread, look up top & click on the paper clip.

2,That opens a box then click browse.

3,That will open another box find your picture where ever it is in your computer. (say downloads,camera,files wherever your picture is.)
When you find the picture click on it then click open, it will then be in your box where you clicked browse.

4, Then click upload, wait to make sure it uploads. The minimize that upload box.

5, After it uploads go back to your post box where you are typing and click the paper clip again and click insert attachments.
(if you forget to go back your pictures will just show as a clickable link instead of a picture in the post. Go back and click the paper clip again after you upload and click insert all or if you only have one picture click on the link there a second time.)
Note, if the picture won't upload most likely it is too big.

Your picture should be in the thread.

If you don't see the paper clip let me know.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Shed


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks Big Ed.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

2 windows would help a lot, you can create a cross breeze with it.
If you don't want windows some kind of vents on the roof would help pull the heat out.
A exhaust fan with an on/off switch should help?
I think there are some vents that work off solar power?
Exhaust fans too? But I am only thinking about you working out there.

But anyway you look at it a 100* is hot.
And in the winter it will be colder then cold.

For the trains,
Insulate, wallboard, add AC and heat with climate control for all year round and you will be set.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have electric running out to there?


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Electric running out there is 20 Amp on 120 volts. Was for battery tender on tractor.
I have vent in back wall up high in peak. I think it is 4 by 12 inches. A small exhaust fan I think would do wonders.
Much like our mate in the video you posted, I also am not wanting to throw that much funds to heat and cool the shed.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

In summer, it's gonna get pretty *HOT* in that shed. Particularly with no ventilation.

You need some way to either:
- cool it (air conditioner)
_or_
- ventilate it, get air "moving through" it.

Kansas winters are gonna be tough on it, too...


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Some things to consider:

Nickel silver rail expands only 5 mm over 30 contiguous meters with a rise in temps of about 15 deg C. That's nothing, and can easily be handled with several 1.5mm gaps here and there, and letting the joiners slide...no soldering.

I'm not going to say that expansion isn't going to be a problem...it might be the deal breaker, so to speak. But the chances are much greater that it is dimensional lumber shrinking across the grain due to dryness...reduced humidity. Or, if your joints get much wider, it's that humidity has increased and expanded across the grain, pulling your rail joints apart some.

By all means, control temps to the extent you can, either with a shading material or ventilation. But the biggest concern should be swings in humidity inside the train room outside of 35% at the lowest and over 66% at the highest. If you've cut and assembled near one of those limits, then the other limit will impose a great strain on your benchwork and rails.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I wouldn't worry about thermal expansion. As Mesenteria said, the track is not going to expand too much. And any curves will ameliorate any problems due to expansion.

A real railroad with miles of straight track can have problems due to thermal expansion and will sometimes give slow orders on hot days, but a model railroad with straights no longer than 14' won't be a problem.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Thanks mesenteria, I had no plans of soldering track. What a day to talk about humidity. Right now humidity is 84%. We got 1/4 inch rain last night and have a 70% chance of rain forecast over night tonight. Here in tornado alley this time of year humidity can and will change a great deal.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Lehigh74 said:


> I wouldn't worry about thermal expansion. As Mesenteria said, the track is not going to expand too much. And any curves will ameliorate any problems due to expansion.
> 
> A real railroad with miles of straight track can have problems due to thermal expansion and will sometimes give slow orders on hot days, but a model railroad with straights no longer than 14' won't be a problem.


Thanks. 
My railroad will be built. I guess if it buckles or kinks I will just go from there..
Thanks all of you.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

So, you can expect the buckling if your shed temps rise some, but your humidity drops below about 45% in the early fall. But, not if you leave several joiners free to slide, mostly on tangents.

I mentioned soldering because soldering helps in two ways:

a. it stiffens the joint so that you don't get kinks at those places when you go to curve the tracks. Joiners will allow kinks, and it's worse the tighter the curvature; and

b. soldering provides positive electrical transmission between track elements. Joiners, by themselves, are notoriously poor at anything but mechanical alignment, and then only along very shallow curves and tangents. They are terrible over the long term for electrical connectivity due to glues, paints, dust, corrosion, etc., inside them. Those who dislike/are terrible at soldering must eventually solder feeders to the web or to the underside of the rail foot if they want a guaranteed electrical connectivity across all rails. If you solder_ every other_ pair of joiners, you only need to solder one pair of feeders with the joints soldered and you get full connectivity for 3' in both directions. All the other joiners can be left to slide and do what they do best; align the rail tips where they meet.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Andy, looking at your shed; if the sun eventually gets nice 'n high where you live, then a top shade, even of 1/4" plywood, suspended above the topmost panels, will provide a great deal of heat relief. They will need to be supported by about 8" of 2X2 legs to allow a thermal break of air to pass between them and the roof proper, but it'll reduce the temps to ambient air, and not to about 120 deg. If you are concerned with thermal winds during the day, or worse, maybe a couple of those dog corkscrew thingies to tie a dog into the lawn, and a come-along strap over the plywood, near the legs to keep the straps from bending the ply, will hold them in place.

It's a bit of expense, and a bit of bother, but either that or you'll have to get used to playing trains at 0600.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

You will need a small roof over the door to keep rain out.
And, since it is not on a concrete foundation, you can expect the floor and wall bottom edges to rot away.

Plan the layout for disassembly!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

if it makes much difference ... the linear thermal expansion between plywood, and nickel silver track is quite similar ...
it won't matter much on the temperature, not like dirt to steel on the prototype ..


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

mesenteria, as per your paragraph 2, I am now considering soldering as stated.
As per building a shade over shed, as I understand what you typed, I don't think so. To build it to stand up to the wind here I would be forever repairing it. But thanks.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

Dennis461. thanks. Doors are about 3 inches thick. I will take photo of open doors later today. I have never gotten rain in shed. If I put exhaust fan above horseshoe I will probably put some kind of rain protection over that. Can't be seen in photo above but shed is on concrete. There is an 8x8 concrete slab old canning shed built on. Canning shed taken by tornado. Concrete runs coming off 8x8 to 14 feet. Shed is built on treated 4x4's setting on concrete. Joists are treated 2x4 on 12 inch centers, floor is treated 3/4 plywood. Roof has tornado clips.
Thanks


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

wgvca, thanks. I am not much worried about the kinks anymore. If it happens, I will deal with it then. I may install exhaust fan if I get to hot playing trains. Reading the sticky thread heat kinks were mentioned and then never spoken of again in thread. I just got worried.
Thanks everybody, I have learned much reading of these forums.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If it gets too hot I find that a small fan blowing air on you helps a lot.
If I am working on one of my vehicles outside in the hot I always have a box fan trained on me. Where ever I lay or sit it follows me. 
In the hot garage the same.
Having some air blown on you helps a lot in the heat.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Repairing kinks can be as simple as scraping clean the fish plate and spike head details and using CA or epoxy to adhere the rails back in gauge. If you're lucky you may be able to press the rails back into place without breaking the spike heads, but don't bet on it.

When I see a rail bent out of its spike heads, I use a Dremel and a thin cut-off disk and try to make a very thin slice through the affected rail at the apex of its curve. That will provide permanent relief, although you'll need to join the two end, maybe dress them with a needle file so that the cut-off remnants don't make wheels hop over the joint, or just align the joint carefully, fixed with a dab of two-part epoxy, and make sure there's power right up to both ends of the gap.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Coming a little bit late to the party, but I have to ask: are YOU ok with temps above 100? I wouldn't be. Your electronics might not be either.

If it were me, I would line the inside with extruded foam insulating panels and install a small air conditioner. Otherwise I wouldn't find it bearable being in the train room.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Coming a little bit late to the party, but I have to ask: are YOU ok with temps above 100? I wouldn't be. Your electronics might not be either.
> 
> If it were me, I would line the inside with extruded foam insulating panels and install a small air conditioner. Otherwise I wouldn't find it bearable being in the train room.


I am going to answer your question, yes. Although I might not be able to take it as long as I could a couple years ago.
Read that as big change in health and most of why I retired at 62. For the last five years of my employment I was in a refinery for most summers. FR clothing and all skin covered except face. Shade and 100 degrees is where one went to cool off. I priced fiberglass insulation at $200 for just the walls. Did not price foam. The 100 degree tempts will only be for a few hours a day, but most days it may no t get that high. I was more worried about ruining track than about myself. My wife does NOT like heat, she is from South Dakota. So I know if I get too hot I can go inside the house where the wife will have the A/C set on 'arctic winter'. LOL
Thanks


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

The extruded foam insulation will be almost three times what the bats are worth retail. At least, in the PNW where I live, the foam is very costly.


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