# Under-tree platform



## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So, I rigged up what I think is a very nice layout for going under the Christmas tree, my oldest kid being age 5 and the youngest age 1, I see the next 10+ years as being prime for having a rig under the tree.

This layout is for a mix of pre- and post-war Lionel loc's, the largest probably being the FM Trainmaster (curves to tight to run my No.763-E 4-6-4 loc.). Accessories to include log loader, coal elevator, several light towers, etc.

We usually buy a 10' tall x 6' diameter tree, and what I've come to realize after already putting too much work into this layout, is that I'm probably heading into something that isn't going to work. We usually set up a 6' or 10' stepladder to string lights around the tree, and hang ornaments, angel, etc. I fear the train layout is going to be right in the way of getting at the tree for decorating, and given the size and weight of the tree, there's simply no way to practically move it onto the layout after decorating (unless I set up a hoist from the ceiling! :laugh.

Layout as shown below. Tree was to go on elevated platform in center, the perimeter of the platform being decorated as either hillside or stone wall, with tunnel entrances for inner loop of track. The platform is temporary use, this would be transferred to a dedicated sheet of plywood with decor and wiring embedded below.

Thoughts? I do have room next to the tree for a 30" x perhaps 6' layout, but with only 30" width to use, it's going to be tight and not very interesting. I really liked this layout, with the high density of switches, operating tracks (four planned), two loaders, and possibly a few street crossings.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Buy a smaller tree, incorporate the layout into x mass. Snow , carolers, etc. They have some ice skaters on a pond. Or just make it yourself, with some of those old lead figurines. You'll still have a nice tree, but with a Christmas theme around it. Put some lit up winter houses etc. Decorate your whole town for Christmas. Also check into some Christmas rolling stock, or search for robes Christmas cars.( he made some nice ones) .


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=21416&highlight=Christmas
Link to robes' cars.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

NICE! That's a lot of lay out for under a tree.

Hope it doesn't interfere with Santa. He might not want to leave once he starts runnin' the trains.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

lol... rkenney.

I don't think we want to skimp too much on the tree. I'd probably still be looking at a 9 footer, just due to the elevated stand height.

Just wondering how others have done it. I could build a simply gantry to hoist the tree after decorated, and slide the platform under. Or, set the tree stand on two 2x6's supported by ends far enough apart, that I can slide the platform under, and then block down onto the platform. Not the most difficult thing in the world, but a little bit of a hassle. Might be easier to have the layout come apart around the tree, but that means a lot of wiring connections across the joints.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Move it to the other side, you got room! Have the log loader move candy cains , the trains will fit right in!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I like the idea, sjm. It's a big room, but that photo was taken back when we first moved in, and didn't have furniture yet! It's fairly full, now.

Here's that same space, more recently. The tree goes where the blue cupboard is in the dinner photo, or that little child's black rocking chair is in the second photo.

The trouble with O-guage train platforms is they take up so darn much space! :laugh:


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Like your Nativity figures. Looks like I've got the same.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Smaller tree, build the track on a table. Cut the bottom branches off. Put the tree on the table. You'll get the height and the tree. Presents for the family go under the table!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

If you slide the platform around the tree, as long as the track joints are close and no switches on the joint it should work like a modular layout. You could make bus bars on each side so you only have to connect a few wires. Depending on if you use all of the the zw . At most 10 connections. One ground per side ,and one power from each of the zw outputs , 4 each side. 10 total. You could run the feeds through the side or top of the table and have the hook ups close to the zw. Use a screw terminal. Probably easier then it sounds.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

sjm... I was just thinking of doing exactly that, a modular style platform, two or three pieces. I use a lot of Phoenix Combicon connectors at work, and they might be the ticket for connecting the platform sections. I like the idea of doing the table platform, and it would definitely be more practical, but I like the look of a big tree! I know the wife likes a big tree, too.

rkenney... I think your figures are nicer than ours!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You say you may have another 30" by 6' is the yellow arrow pointing to that?

The ZW should power all of that with only needing one lockon.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi Ed,

Nope... that platform is just an old carpeted platform I had laying around, not the intended platform for this set. So, the blue taped area is what I'm trying to fit in. The aforementioned additional 30" wide x 6' long space would be jutting out of the right corner (where the ZW and switch controllers are sitting), toward the bottom of the photo. Not very useful space, but just dictated by the room layout. I plan to try sticking to the blue taped 72" side x 66" long space shown, if I can.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> Nope... that platform is just an old carpeted platform I had laying around, not the intended platform for this set. So, the blue taped area is what I'm trying to fit in. The aforementioned additional 30" wide x 6' long space would be jutting out of the right corner (where the ZW and switch controllers are sitting), toward the bottom of the photo. Not very useful space, but just dictated by the room layout. I plan to try sticking to the blue taped 72" side x 66" long space shown, if I can.


When you said this, and what I've come to realize after already putting too much work into this layout I thought that you were going to use that. What work have you done then? (no offense meant)

The only way I see it is somehow you will have to piece in the woodwork. Then after you get the tree all done is to slip in the layout.

Or another way is to just set up the track on the floor, after you put some kind of rug/mat down to protect the floor. A white rug type mat would work and help the track stay in place. No shag type rugs/mats, no good for the trains. Then buy some cotton for placement all around as it makes nice snow.
Something that size wouldn't take that long to set up.

The problem I see that your going to have piecing 2 boards together is where the switches are.









I almost see a line that if you cut what you have most of the track will mate up. (yellow lines) But the 2 pieces wont be the same size. Then slide the 2 pieces together. (red arrows) One piece will be wider then the other side. Just cut out the area where the tree stand will be.

Now, if you can work in the extra 30" x 6' for two sidings ( I am still trying to see where that is) you could add the sidings there instead of on the inside and make your 2 loops around the tree larger. The loop in the middle is pretty small, do you think the FM will run around in there?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi Ed,

Actually, most of the work has been cleaning up and putting various controllers and accessories back into working order (that ZW was a real mess, along with the coal elevator), so it's not really time lost. All of the "work" I did on this layout was CAD work on the computer... not an entire waste, but definitely some hours of playing with layout options.

Here's what we have now, the gaps in the track being places where I need to cut a custom length:










The yellow line is where the track breaks land, and I could handle this one of three ways, in order of probable preference:

1. Just cut a straight line in the plywood, allow the natural track breaks to overhang as they may. It'll all come together fine. (preferred)

2. Zig-zag plywood cut to make plywood cut line up with natural track breaks.

3. Make a lot of short track pieces, so all breaks land in a straight line (not preferred!).

In any case, the possible extra space would be like the following photo, but it would really kill all Santa's space for leaving presents by the tree, and make it more difficult to load my wood stove (3x per day, every day!).


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Here's another interesting option, in fact I could move some accessories here, and get away from having to elevate the tree a foot to have the lower branches clear the coal elevator, but it does eliminate my only good spot (given other stuff in the room) for the controls. Also, the two switches circled in yellow don't really fit, and I'm maxed out on space between wall (baseboard heaters) and fireplace, already.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

rkenney said:


> NICE! That's a lot of lay out for under a tree.
> 
> Hope it doesn't interfere with Santa. He might not want to leave once he starts runnin' the trains.


True :dunno:
Are you sure you can't divide it into two sections then put it back together, like what the thread about planning modules to make the layout portable is thinking of? Either way, the trains are ESSENTIAL :sly:
Too many people today forget to put trains under the tree 
I mean... How is that Christmas?!!?!?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Lol... 400E. I agree, completely. I don't care if they drive the dogs nuts, there will be trains under the tree!


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

If I were doing something like that I think I'd consider a protective overlay of some sort to put in place while decorating the tree. A couple screws keeps it secure while bumping around a 9' tree and is quick and easy to remove once the tree is done. I'd prefer a single solid base board over an assembled later under the tree approach mostly due to my klutziness.

YM and bruises MV.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I really like that suggestion, New Guy. Although I've sort of grown into the idea of splitting the layout, too. Might make storage and transport easier. Then again, if I made it strong enough to stand on (eg. 3/4" plywood with support blocks in key locations), your overlay could actually make a storage cover. I've thought I might store this hoisted to the rafters in one of our attics or basement ceiling, in the off season.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Got the track quickly screwed down to the temp platform. Didn't bother cleaning the 60 year old bullets or track, which I'll do at time of transfer to final platform, but just wanted to see quickly how the layout works. I like it, with just a couple exceptions:

1. I wish I could put uncoupling tracks in curves so I could have one right at the entrance to each of my sidings. I suspect re-coupling won't work in a curve, tho (coupler alignment).
2. I need to make the siding with the log loader into a closed loop by adding a switch into the adjacent curve at the end of that siding. It just doesn't make sense to have the log loader right at the end of a siding, and due to the switch bodies on my multiple 022's, I can't slide it much to the right in the views shown.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Uh oh... ran into some trouble with my idea to close the loop. The log loader is so long, there's just no room between the curve to the left and the 022 switch to the right of the loader. I can't flip the witch around without changing the spacing between the ovals, dictated by the relative placements of four other switches. Seems this loader may just have to be in a dead-end siding, after all?


















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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The switch motor is reversible. If you unscrew it and turn it around it might fit on the other side. Hard to tell but worth a try. If it doesn't fit maybe you could create the room by adding a small straight peice to move the inner loop just a tad.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

FM Trainmaster said:


> I wish I could put uncoupling tracks in curves so I could have one right at the entrance to each of my sidings. I suspect re-coupling won't work in a curve, tho (coupler alignment).


As you know coupling doesn't work on curves for alignment reasons. It is unlikely though that any of us have all the uncoupling track in all the right places.

If you have any of the older switchers or care to convert your present couplers back to electro-magnetic couplers the whistle relay can be used to uncouple cars anywhere on the track.:smokin:


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Sjm, already tried both. I can flip the switch motor, and if I remove or shave one track tie, it JUST squeezed in next to the inner loop track. Unfortunately trucks won't clear it, I think, with it right up against the outer rail. Also don't think I can move inner loop with double switches I have on two "corners" of inner loop, but I'll try that. I already know I can't expand outer (middle) loop any, fit to o31 cornering lower right already coming in right at lower edge of platform.

Rkenney, not sure if it matters, but all my trains are 1920's (gpop's) and ca.1950 (dad's), so they're already older style couplings. The older ones have a pickup shoe and solenoid pushing up the keeper on a pre-war style coupling. The stuff from ca.1950 has magnetically operated post-war couplings.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Wait... I just had an idea. I have a third dimension to consider. I could elevate the log loader above the adjacent switch, and that would allow me to slide the log loader to the right.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Quick concept verification. The track can actually flex to climb 1.5" in two o31 turns, as shown. Although, to limit incline, a better plan would be to elevate the pair of switches on the right, which feed this turn out by three-quarter inch, and split the difference. Climbing up 3/4" to the log loader and sloping down 3/4" to the pair of switches to the inner loop.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Oops... Forgot the photos.


















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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The 'flying' shoe that connects the early post war electro-magnetic couplers remains connected when you use the horn relay method thereby retaining the original method of uncoupling in addition to the horn relay.

I am not really familiar with many pre-war couplers, by all accounts Lionel had a lot of different couplers before the development of the current knuckle coupler, but if they use track voltage to operate then they are suitable candidates for horn relay uncoupling. Again wiring will just be in parallel to the original method. 

If this is your coupler (4f developed 1939) it will work with the horn relay:


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

cool. Might be worth playing with, if alignment isn't preventing me from re-couplingin the curve.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Good idea! And the trucks rkenny posted are on my pre war stuff. I never really use the couplers though. Nice coal loader, I might need somepictures of the underside. Ive got a beat up one with half a base. Its in the to do pile. ( which is bigger then the working good pile!)


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Sometimes you just need to walk away for a few hours to realize the obvious solution. I was able to just add 1" extensions before the turns into the lower siding where the log loader sits, and make room for the loader. I had to move the entire layout back on my platform (as simple as moving the taped boundaries on this temporary oversized platform), but that's no problem.

I'll post some photos of that coal elevator in the next day or two, so you have them when you're ready to dig into things, sjm. I also have a huge pile of stuff to re-work, given all of my train stuff is hand-me-downs from my father, grandfather, and one uncle. In fact, that coal elevator was recently in that pile.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm still trying to figure if the train can actually make the leap back to the lower track next to the log loader!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Good eye! I'm not trying it, tho!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I just realized I could put another switch at the end of my only remaining dead-end siding, and create an alternate outer loop. That wasn't my goal, I was actually trying to solve the problem of having to back out of the log loader siding loop, as well as the coal elevator dead-end siding, but it serves both purposes. Thoughts? I'm talking about the single switch added at the top right corner of the platform. I added the switch at the lower left corner (converting log loader siding from dead-end to loop) just the other day.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you ever think your trying to put in too much for under the tree?
You do know that Christmas is right around the corner?

I like the added switch, you will have more running options.

What ever you decide you better start making the hard copy.

Christmas is a coming.
As I write this there are only 47 days, 16 hrs, 40 mins, and 38 seconds left to go!

Look,
An official Christmas countdown clock for you. 

http://www.xmasclock.com/


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Hah... I like it, Ed! I'm not worried about getting this done for putting under the tree THIS year. That would be nice, but considering it's only 4 weeks 'till we drag home a tree, I don't see it happening. I already have the track screwed down to the temporary platform, as photo'd above, so we can start playing with it now, as I work on making the permanent platform. I would be happy to spend some of my time off this Christmas doing the final decorating on the finished platform with my 5-year old.

I think I'll add the switch shown. It's actually a shame the switch bodies on these 022's are so much larger than the 042's. I would be able to rotate that switch 45-deg clockwise and make that rear siding longer, if the 022 switch body didn't end up hitting the transition between inner and outer loops in that orientation. I can't flip the switch, or it'd be hanging off the edge of the platform / into the baseboard heater in the intended location.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Wow. I bet that software is a must have for layout designs. I just kinda went for it lol. But great progress love the postwar accessories.cant wait to see this thing in action


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just do the track this year, after Christmas add the accessories stc. Then you can tweak as necessary. Each year add something with the family, new car, new scene, etc. They'll look forward to it and you'll create a new/old tradition!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

That's exactly what I'm thinking, sjm. Already bought my son a Lionchief Thomas the tank engine set last year (actually splurged and also bought him several trucks and some scale people figures), and I have a Lionchief Percy (Thomas's friend) on order for this year. I just set the track to a constant voltage (using the ZW or other transformer), and let him drive those trains via the remote, and he gets a real kick out of it. He's too young to appreciate the real fun of model railroading... building and fixing stuff!

Like I said, the track may or may not make it under the tree this year. No biggie, tho. It's a big house, and I have a half dozen other places I could lay this platform for him to use. It will be used this Christmas, just maybe not under the tree!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I got the lioncheif Thomas for my daughter last year, she just turned 3 last week. Thats our under the tree train.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Cool! I think I remember you mentioning it last Christmas, when I was having some quality problems with Lionel. I purchased THREE of those Lionchief Thomas sets, before I could assemble one working set. Ended up keeping the loco from the first set, with the remote from the second... can't remember what the third set brought.

I put power to the tracks tonight, and popped the breaker in the ZW. Should've checked for shorts first, but this is all track I've used before, and I didn't expect a short. I traced it down to actually several refurb'd 022 switches I bought last year. Every one of them had a short between center rail and one of the outer rails. I guess the guy who rebuilds and sells them on ebay doesn't know what he's doing (won't mention the name, but he does a lot of these). Opened up one of the switches and found the ground tie strap that connects one of the outer rails across the switch on the top side of the bakelite was shorted to the center rail tie strap under the switch. He must've had them all apart for cleaning, and missed a few things when he put them back together, because these are also missing all of the little mechanical bowties at the tabs that hold the ends of the tracks down to the housing. Will post pictures momentarily.

Fixed the first switch, but it was getting late and I had other things to do, so I decided to tackle the rest another day.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

"Refurbished" switch on left, one of dad's old 022's on right. Is paper from factory, or a mod from my father at age 10?









Dad's switch showing little tie straps on tabs holding ends of track down, versus ebay refurb switch showing those pieces missing. Did Lionel stop installing these, or did ebay seller just lose them during cleaning?
















Attempt to show short circuit. It's under that center rail tie strap, where the outer rail tie strap on top side of track comes back down thru hole in bakelite and gets bent over. This guy forgot to bend the tab up, so it's shorted against the center rail. Ohmmeter shows he did that on all of the switches I purchased from him.










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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The paper is stock, the 022 switches came with fishpaper insulation between the bottom plate and the track.


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