# 583A Elecromagnetic Crane Problem



## Old feller (Mar 30, 2012)

Greetings all,

My crane only wants to move in one direction. I suspect it may be wired wrong, when I was probably 8 or 10. 
I cannot find an "internal" wiring diagram on line.
I have provided a picture to see if someone could compare it with one that is working for me.

The Black, and Green wires from the control box are originals, the orange wire is attached to the original red wire.

Thanks


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

The only diagram I have show the yellow wire from control box to the 15 volt post on tranny, and the black wire from the from the control box to the base post on the tranny..Sorry.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I haven't found any internal diagram either on line. Here is a picture of the bottom of the switch on mine that you can double check with yours. Unfortunately you can't see where the wires connect at the motor since they go up over the motor when installed in the crane. Sorry I can't be more helpful.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

This reply really will not help because I have never seen an internal wiring diagram for the 583A nor disassembled one. I can confirm from the first picture that the crane will rotate and the magnet will energize when the red button is pressed. It appears that one side of the field is permanently connected to one side of the armature (where the green wire is connected) by the factory wiring. Given this nothing will happen when the green button is pressed. 
I am assuming this motor is meant to be a series motor with a single field. The only way I can think this motor as wired could reverse is if the field has a center tap. When I get home Wednesday I will check an electrical book I have of all the Gilbert motors and solenoids and see if this helps. I will let you know.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

AmFlyer said:


> This reply really will not help because I have never seen an internal wiring diagram for the 583A nor disassembled one. I can confirm from the first picture that the crane will rotate and the magnet will energize when the red button is pressed. It appears that one side of the field is permanently connected to one side of the armature (where the green wire is connected) by the factory wiring. Given this nothing will happen when the green button is pressed.
> I am assuming this motor is meant to be a series motor with a single field. The only way I can think this motor as wired could reverse is if the field has a center tap. When I get home Wednesday I will check an electrical book I have of all the Gilbert motors and solenoids and see if this helps. I will let you know.


 I can verify that this uses a double wound motor based on reading in the K-line complete service manual. The red button rotates the motor one way and the green button reverses the direction, the magnet is energized until the buttons are released. I can't see were the wires are attached due to fact they run up and over the top of the motor when installed. I'm not an E.E. but hopefully Tom can figure where the 3 wires from the button attach to the motor.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

That would explain it. The question then is where is the third field lead. I wonder if it is on the tab that protrudes to the left of the field? I would also guess that the “center tap” connection is the black insulated wire coming over the top of the field that connects to the brush bracket on the left side. We need to know if these 2 assumptions are correct. 
I have never taken one of the control buttons apart but it looks like all it does is connect the yellow wire (15V Post) to either the green or red wire depending on which button is pushed. 
If all these assumptions are correct it would be wired per my “sketch” below.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I'm curious why the OP's picture shows 2 wires going out towards the magnet. Looking at mine there is 1 cloth covered wire from right brush clip running under the motor out to the magnet. All of the other wires are spliced into cloth wires at the motor making them hard to trace. I'm not sure what the other wire spliced into the field wire is for. Sorry I'm not much help here as reading electrical schematics is not in my wheelhouse.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I read oldfellers post to say he rewired it when he was 8 or 10. Since Cramden confirmed this is a double wound field there are several thing wrong with the wiring beginning with the lack of a connection to one end of the second field winding. 
A wire from the right brush clip to the magnet would match the sketch I drew.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Guess things are at a standstill for now. Tomorrow I'll see if I can take mine apart enough to confirm where all the wires are supposed to be attached and hopefully we can get oldfeller's crane working again.


----------



## Old feller (Mar 30, 2012)

Hey friends thanks for the responses. 

Cramden, as I understand it then , what a double wound field would mean is that there should be 3 leads coming from the field coil, and thus the 3 connections show in AmFlyer's schematic.
I put on all my cheaters and lights and looked for anything that looked like where a 3rd lead would have originated.... to no avail.

Regarding the two wires to the e magnet: I would think that the electromagnet would need at least two wires to function, ie to complete the circuit. When testing the motor when I do get it to run the e magnet also worked, with its two wires.

Ok, what I found out tonight: AC motors confuse me but I looked at it as if it were a DC motor and got the green button to work! My thinking, actions and results follow so while looking at the motor and it's wiring:

The red button pushed, supplies current to the R side of the field, the current then flows out the left side, down to the left brush cap, through the armature and out the R brush cap to the “Base” (Ground) on the Trans. The armature spins clockwise real nice.

The green button pushed supplies current to the L brush cap which supplies current to the armature and to the L side of the field coil. The current would flow through the armature and out the R brush cap to the Base (ground) of the transformer thus completing it's circuit. The current from the L brush cap to the L side of the field would flow through the field and exit the R side, which is connected to the Red wire from the red button which not being pushed makes no sensible connection to the Base (ground) of the transformer. So in this case the field is not energized, thus the armature jumps but has no electromagnetic field to motivate it, so no spin. So I shorted the two wires leading to the electromagnet and lo! And behold! The armature spun in a counter clockwise direction! Assumably using the e magnet wires to complete the field's circuit allowing the current to return to the "Base", thus providing the armature a magnetic field for it to spin in. 

But:

When the red button was alternatively pushed all just hummed. Seems I just reversed the problem. 
Easiest solution at this point is to find or create an internal wiring diagram by looking at a working crane maybe with mirrors see how many wires and where they go.
Still open to any more ideas or comment to fix my thinking and / or motor. 
Sorry for the long dissertation, but that happens when I think someone listens. 

Cramden, I was composing all this when you added your reply. I hate to have you disassemble your crane for this. You know the old saying: If it ain't broke don't mess with it. If you do make sure it is the 2 button kind.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Right, it can be permanently wired to go either direction but not both directions with only two Field leads. When I get a look at my reference book on Gilbert motors I will se if it indicates where the 3rd lead from the coil should be.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Just got out of surgery on the crane, this is what we have. Its a little hard tracing all of the wires since they are all cloth covered and fraying at the ends. Hope my crude drawing makes sense.


----------



## Old feller (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow, thanks Cramden,
I still have daylight here, so got to stay on the outdoor projects for another couple of hours, but will get to it night, and let you know. 
So, I shall be looking for a third wire as suspected somewhere coming out of the field, and rearrange the wiring to match yours. 
Thanks for the schematic, if it works you should publish it. I will keep it on file and share any royalties with you.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

On looking again at the motor it appears that the wires from the coils in the fields protrude out about an inch at their ends after what looks like they go through holes in the tiny plates and then are cloth covered that looks to have been slid over to insulate the wires and then the wires from the switch are tied in. Interesting that it looks like masking tape was used to wrap the connections. The field wire at the left rear is longer and is soldered directly to the left brush cap.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here comes everything you wish you did not need to know about the 583A motor. But first a note for information. 
Since you have an operating crane finding the 3rd field lead is a nice to do but not a must do. With one field winding the crane can be wired just like a 4 wire steamer. Bring back separately the 2 armature brush wires and the 2 field wires. Use a DPDT switch in place of a reverse unit and any standard push button, like an uncoupler to activate. Parallel the magnet across the armature. 

Here are the tech data sheets. 










Per the note above if late production the following specs apply to the field.


----------



## Old feller (Mar 30, 2012)

Yup, there it was. The reclusive 3rd wire broke off just inside the hole in the frame. I teased it out and had apx. 1/16 of an inch to work with. I soldered a lead to it, got continuity, and epoxied it. I figured I'd get one chance to get a connection so the epoxy. I will rewire it tomorrow, and see what happens. I am taking pictures, so if it works I'll share them. If not I will probably go the DPDT switch method.

I also would like to replace the wires that go to the magnet with something like the two conductor, cloth covered, flexible wires like was used originally. Any suggestions on this would be very much appreciated also.

Thanks so much guys, with all your help, maybe someday I'll get promoted from Hobo to ....?


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You have steady hands and patience to work with such a short piece. As long as the enamel was cleaned off the end of the wire prior to soldering you should be ok. 
Several train vendors sell ultra flexible wire but not as pairs in cloth sheathing.
Good news! At 50 posts you will be hired by the railroad as a Gang Labourer, graduating from the freeloading Hobo you are now.


----------



## Old feller (Mar 30, 2012)

Free loader! What can I say? Other than thanks guys! The crane motor works like a charm! If I get it together w/o breaking something else I will see if I can post a short video. (don't know if possible, but will find out.) 
Thanks again guys, you helped save another cool AF accessory from the scrap heap.
Next project, a granddaughter wants me to tackle the coal loader.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You are experienced now! The hardest part of a coal loader is restringing it.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

I'm glad we were able to help you get it going again and save it from the scrapper. Hopefully, when I put mine back together I didn't break any wires in the process.


----------

