# N or HO?



## Subsailor (Mar 9, 2017)

Hi all, 
New to this group, so a little about me. I have been retired for a few years, still have my American Flyer set from when I was a child, and have the HO stuff I purchased for my children. Mainly track, buildings, and minimal loco and rolling stock.

My question is which size should I go with? I have ample space for either but when I draw up a layout I have a tendency to lean toward N scale vs HO. My uncertainty is mainly the small size of N and the availability of scenery items, buildings etc., in addition to ones ability to assemble structures etc. I would appreciate any info you can provide to sway me one way or the other.

Thanks in advance,
An old submarine sailor.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Scale choice*



Subsailor said:


> Hi all,
> New to this group, so a little about me. I have been retired for a few years, still have my American Flyer set from when I was a child, and have the HO stuff I purchased for my children. Mainly track, buildings, and minimal loco and rolling stock.
> 
> My question is which size should I go with? I have ample space for either but when I draw up a layout I have a tendency to lean toward N scale vs HO. My uncertainty is mainly the small size of N and the availability of scenery items, buildings etc., in addition to ones ability to assemble structures etc. I would appreciate any info you can provide to sway me one way or the other.
> ...


Subsailor;

Welcome to the forum, and back to model railroading. Unless you have pretty serious difficulty handling small objects, you should be able to build a good layout in either HO-scale, or N-scale. Those are the two most popular scales in the country and each of them has more structures, scenery items and accessories available than a non-millionaire could ever afford to buy. Ho has more modelers, and available stuff than N but not enough to make any practical difference. 
The advantage of N-scale in a large space is that you can have a realistically longer main line. On that main line you can run realistically long trains with more cars than in a larger scale, using the same space. The model "world you create will also have a more realistic size ratio between trains and the hills, trees, rivers, towns, etc. that surround the trains. 
HO-scale might be better for you if seeing the small details on individual cars and locomotives is a major plus in your book. There are wonderfully detailed products available in both those scales, but the HO cars are bigger than the N cars. If you have the space, and are really into small detail, you might want to look at O-scale. It is the third most popular scale and has a fair amount of products available, though not close to the variety of n, or HO. O-scale also tends to be more expensive per item than Ho or N. The cost difference between HO and N isn't all that much, but when you price Z-scale, S-scale, O-scale, and G-scale, you will notice a pretty sharp price jump. 
So it's really down to "Which scale do you like best?" That's all that really matters anyhow. If you haven't already done so, you might want to read through the "Beginner's Q&A" section of this forum. There is a lot of good info available there. My own experience is Marx tinplate as a kid, HO-scale as a teenager, and N-scale as an adult. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:
An old aircraft carrier sailor


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

Subsailor said:


> Hi all,
> New to this group, so a little about me. I have been retired for a few years, still have my American Flyer set from when I was a child, and have the HO stuff I purchased for my children. Mainly track, buildings, and minimal loco and rolling stock.
> 
> My question is which size should I go with? I have ample space for either but when I draw up a layout I have a tendency to lean toward N scale vs HO. My uncertainty is mainly the small size of N and the availability of scenery items, buildings etc., in addition to ones ability to assemble structures etc. I would appreciate any info you can provide to sway me one way or the other.
> ...



Well, I'm 26, and I find N scale is too small and fiddly for me to mess with. I already have glasses and fat fingers, so It's a no go for me haha.

I haven't had any problems with ho, i think the fiddly-est thing is getting the little tiny springs back on to a coupler when they go flying. decoder installs are generally easy with ample space.

I know some older guys who do N though. I would say, Order some unpainted N scale people figures, and try to paint them. That should tell you if you want to mess with it lol.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Spring Pick*



santafealltheway said:


> Well, I'm 26, and I find N scale is too small and fiddly for me to mess with. I already have glasses and fat fingers, so It's a no go for me haha.
> 
> I haven't had any problems with ho, i think the fiddly-est thing is getting the little tiny springs back on to a coupler when they go flying. decoder installs are generally easy with ample space.
> 
> I know some older guys who do N though. I would say, Order some unpainted N scale people figures, and try to paint them. That should tell you if you want to mess with it lol.


 santafealltheway;

If you're having trouble with coupler springs, here are two suggestions that might help you.
1) Work on a white hand towel. The terrycloth texture of the towel will help corral those springs and keep them from rolling off the table. The white color makes the copper colored springs easier to see. Note: be sure to put weights on the corners of the towel so the towel itself doesn't slide off the table. I had that happen and lost some parts and my temper
2) Kadee makes a special tool specifically for the "fiddly" job of putting springs in their couplers. It's called a "spring pick." The tool has a metal tip with tiny dimples projecting from either side. These dimples stick in between the spring's coils, and retain the spring. The spring pick makes inserting springs much easier. 


Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A couple tips about Kadee coupler springs.

First, before running any new car, place a tiny dab
of CA gel on the bottom nub. That will prevent
the spring from flying to the wild blue yonder.

Second, when you replace one, again, put a
tiny dab of CA on the bottom nub when you
place the spring...let it set...then use your
tweezers or whatever, to do top end nub.

Take care that no glue gets on the movable
parts.

Take these precautions and you won't lose another
spring.

Don


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## kevinh (Jan 26, 2015)

_De gustibus non est disputandum_ - I would say that it's very much a matter of taste and balancing your own interests, preferences, capabilities, and resources in a way that makes you happiest. I offer a few thoughts below, but your mileage may vary.

The local hobby shop often has more HO stuff on its shelves, but N is often fairly well represented too, these days. (And to be fair, you can fit more N-scale stuff in a smaller shelf....) If you're hoping to do a lot of your buying in-person then it's worth visiting your local shops to see what sort of stock they have. If you're not averse to online buying (or waiting for your local shop to mail order on your behalf), then there's a comprehensive world of N-scale equipment and accessories.

If you want to run larger locos and longer railcars, it's easier to fit them in in N-scale--the same radius of curve can be cramped or weird-looking in HO and comfortable in N. Maintaining realistic - or at least tolerable - grades can be easier in N, if you want to let one track pass over another.

N-scale is a little over half the size of HO, so in a given space you get nearly twice as many scale track miles...and almost _four times_ the scale area. This can be a blessing or a curse, depending on your inclinations. You can fit three or four times as many buildings in...but to do that then you have to assemble and paint three or four times as many buildings. A four-inch tree is over fifty scale feet in N, but just under thirty feet in HO; sometimes it's easier to build a railroad that is part of the landscape in N, whereas HO trains may dominate their surroundings. The ratio of scenery-to-rails just tends to be a bit different in N versus HO.

I grew up around HO equipment, and relatively recently got back into the hobby by dipping a toe into N. I remember the first time I picked up an N-scale railcar, and thinking how tiny it was. Now when I browse the local hobby shop I look at the HO gear and think, "Man, those things are huge." If you have a little extra dough, pick up an N-scale boxcar, a little bit of track, maybe a small building, and just see if your fingers and eyes are happy working with N. Good light and trays/towels to contain small bits make a world of difference. If you're nearsighted, you can take your glasses off and elevate the work surface (or lower your chair) to bring parts right up to your nose.

Finally, you're asking this question in the N-scale part of the forum...so what answer are you hoping to get?


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## Fifer (Apr 21, 2011)

Not that I would have any bias , but N Scale is simply the best.
IMHO
Mike


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## Subsailor (Mar 9, 2017)

*Thanks for the feedback*

Thank you to all who responded. While I really like the ability to model N scale, today my less than nimble fingers informed me that HO will be the better option. This was verified when I dropped a tiny screw several times and crawling around on my hands and knees searching for the allusive little one.


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## Zug (May 4, 2012)

N scale will let you do a lot more with your space. But ask yourself how good your eye sight is and how well your hands work. I run N scale myself, but it's harder now that I have cataracts and problems with my right hand from an injury in a freak accident a few years ago that left me thumb and first two fingers feeling part asleep all the time.. (i'm 50 btw)

honestly, if I had a big space and the money I'd be tempted to start over in HO... but I am on disability and live in a 1 bedroom apartment where I share my bedroom with my trains.. So I'll stay with N scale, wear magnifying glasses, and just put up with the hand problem.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Small screws*



Subsailor said:


> Thank you to all who responded. While I really like the ability to model N scale, today my less than nimble fingers informed me that HO will be the better option. This was verified when I dropped a tiny screw several times and crawling around on my hands and knees searching for the allusive little one.


Subsailor;

If you are choosing HO-scale because you think the &^%$#@ screws, and other tiny parts, will be easy to find; I have to burst your bubble. Both scales, all scales for that matter, have parts that are small enough to disappear when they hit the floor. Yes some HO screws might well be a bit bigger than N screws, but not big enough, I sorry to say. The best way to avoid the "Crawl of Despair" is to corral the little buggers so they don't get to the floor. I have a "parts catcher" attached to the front of my workbench. It has saved many parts, and probably a good chunk of my sanity!:laugh: The parts catcher is just a piece of cloth hanging in a loose "gutter" shape across the bench. I have also used a white terrycloth hand towel to work on such :hah:"entertaining" tasks as assembling Z-scale couplers. The white color makes parts easier to see. The towel's texture keeps things from flying away. Be sure to secure the towel with weights, or clips. I once had a towel full of parts slide off the bench! Absolutely no fun at all!:smilie_auslachen:
On the other hand, if you choose HO-scale because you just like it better, good! Enjoy! 

Regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Subsailor (Mar 9, 2017)

*Still no commitment*

I am still toying with which avenue to pursue, but am now leaning back toward N scale. I have assembled a couple of cardboard buildings and am waiting on UPS to delivery a couple of N scale kit buildings. My thoughts are: if I can easily assemble these 2 kits as well as paint and distress them, then N scale is the viable option. Also I have been designing layouts in both scales. I like the small space taken by N vs HO, and the amount of scenery etc that can be amassed in the smaller space, so I may still be a convert. Till later, again thanks all for your responses.:dunno:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Scale "Mindset"*



Subsailor said:


> I am still toying with which avenue to pursue, but am now leaning back toward N scale. I have assembled a couple of cardboard buildings and am waiting on UPS to delivery a couple of N scale kit buildings. My thoughts are: if I can easily assemble these 2 kits as well as paint and distress them, then N scale is the viable option. Also I have been designing layouts in both scales. I like the small space taken by N vs HO, and the amount of scenery etc that can be amassed in the smaller space, so I may still be a convert. Till later, again thanks all for your responses.:dunno:


Subsailor;

As one who has worked in both HO-scale, and now N-scale, I can say that there is a transition period when you switch. At first everything does seem terribly small, but with time and practice you get used to the new scale. Now HO-scale seems huge to me, since I have spent enough years in N-scale for it to become my new "normal." I suspect the same thing would happen with any change in scales. Whatever you choose will be the "right" scale for you.

Good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*HO+N=HOn2.5?*

SubSailor;

I just thought of another possible solution/complication for your scale choice dilemma. If you like narrow gauge railroads, you might like HOn-3 which is a popular modeling rendition of the three foot narrow gauge railroads built in Colorado, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and other places. There is also a scale/gauge combination called HOn-2-1/2. This is a compromise between those three foot gauge railroads and the two foot railroads of Maine. Modelers use HO-scale bodies on N-scale mechanisms. The advantage is that N-scale track, turnouts etc. can be used, but the figures, structures, etc. are HO-scale. I don't know if Narrow gauge is something you are interested in, or not. FYI the Lower case "n" in HOn-3, and HOn-2-1/2, has nothing to do with N-scale. It's just the way that "narrow gauge" is indicated.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Subsailor (Mar 9, 2017)

*I might be committed- Your critique Please.*

Well it appears that I am leaning heavily toward N scale. I have downloaded and built a couple of cardboard buildings and currently have "The Corner Apothecary" by Landmark Structures under construction. Copies attached. I have also suing SCARM designed an N Scale layout. Overall I am fairly satisfied with the design with the exception of the lower right corner just above the yard tracks. Not sure what to do with this space. I appreciate your comments on the layout and any recommendations you may have


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*What is the better scale to choose from(IMO)*

I believe you would be more satisfied with the "ho" scale not only it's a larger scale, it has more
options for detailing.There is so much you can do in the 1/87 scale it's really almost astronomical.
One option that caught my attention was operating crossing signals at grade crossings.
And there are a whole lot of accessories available that can be added.
So I would go with the "ho" scale, The ho size, is tolerable to work with and you have a larger library to choose from.
Good luck with your choice now!
Regard's,tr1


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Very interesting layout design.

The way I read it you have two separate railroads
with interchanges, the yellow route and the blue route.

You might build a mountain and let the blue line run
in a tunnel in that space above the lower yard. The yellow
line is already curving around the mountain it seems.

I see at least 2 reverse loops that will have to be isolated
and the turntable is another. Many turntables, however,
have built in reverse controllers.

There are many crossovers including between the two
different mains. See if you can draw out your mains
including where they meet using RED for right rail and
BLACK for left rail to ensure no other potential problems.

That beautiful big yard is screaming for the diode matrix
turnout control system. One button push sets all points
for the route you select. You would need to use twin
coil turnout motors to utilize the system.

Don


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

tr1 said:


> The ho size, is tolerable to work with and you have a larger library to choose from.


Yeah, that was why HO was very tempting, for me, but I just don't feel I would get enough stuff in the small space I feel I can use.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Why the reverse curve?*



Subsailor said:


> Well it appears that I am leaning heavily toward N scale. I have downloaded and built a couple of cardboard buildings and currently have "The Corner Apothecary" by Landmark Structures under construction. Copies attached. I have also suing SCARM designed an N Scale layout. Overall I am fairly satisfied with the design with the exception of the lower right corner just above the yard tracks. Not sure what to do with this space. I appreciate your comments on the layout and any recommendations you may have


 Subsailor;

Welcome to N-scale! As for the "You would be better off, happier with, ho" comment; well that's your decision. Different people like different scales. That's why there's more than one scale in the first place. The fact is, you can do anything in one scale that you can in another, given the space to build in. Apparently you have decided on N-scale, and you also seem to have a good track plan. You asked for comments on the lower right corner of your plan. What is the purpose of the winding, reverse curve in that area? Reverse curves in general are possible derailment causing track arrangements, particularly if you ever have to back a train through them. Its a good practice to include enough straight track between a left, and a right curve to hold your longest loco, or car. This effectively transforms a reverse curve into two separate curves divided by the straight track. This is a lot easier on trains, The only other comment I have is that your overall track plan has a lot of track, and maybe not enough room in between for scenery, towns, etc. However that's just my opinion and each modeler feels differently about how much space they want to devote to track, and how much to everything else. I happen to favor realistically lonely track amid a larger landscape. However this approach has its downside, less continuous running. Many prefer to have multiple trains running at the same time and that requires more track. It's simply a matter of personal choice, like which scale to pick, and a thousand other decisions each of us has to make for our individual railroad. 
Overall, it looks good, and that's a nice job on the brick structure. Well done!

Regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Ko Improbable (Mar 15, 2017)

traction fan said:


> As for the "You would be better off, happier with, ho" comment; well that's your decision.


Agreed, and there's more than one source of happiness. In my own example, I want industrial switching opportunities. I would need a *much* larger layout to have "enough" of those with HO.


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## Subsailor (Mar 9, 2017)

*close to being final*

After using SCARM to design an N scale layout that I liked I attempted to duplicate it in HO scale. Unfortunately I do not have enough room for and HO layout, so I guess i will be going with N scale. I am also going to have to get a lighted magnifier to see the small details on buildings, either that or have people stand way back when they look at them. 

Anyway, I would like to thank all who provided feedback on my earlier revision of my layout and have tried to incorporate the suggestions into what I hope to be the final or close to final revision. So if you do not mind spending a few minutes to critique I would appreciate your input.
View attachment SCARM - N scale Rail yard no wye.pdf


Thanks again for your input.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

One alternative to the lighted magnifier: I have a pair of +4x magnifiers that clip on to my reading glasses (themselves +2.5), and a camping headlamp for light. Cheaper and just as effective as an Optivisor or equivalent, and I can use the headlamp when I go camping as well.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

That's going to be one heck of a layout. 

Magic


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

In the mid to late 70's I had an N scale layout with over 11 scale miles of main line track. Unfortunately, at that time, the N scale locomotives we crude compared to what N scale has to offer today.

I tore out the layout and moved to HO scale. I have been working on the layout for over 30 years and am glad that I did move to HO scale. The old eyeballs aren't as good as they used to be and HO scale is easier for me to work with. 

Locally, there is a group of N scale modelers who set up a modular layout around the area in a mall, library and so on. When I see those time locomotives I can't believe that I actually worked with them. I will say that the locomotives are great running locomotives, but the size and my eyes don't work together. 

I will say that there is more structures and detail items available in HO scale compared to N scale and HO scale should be easier to work with. 

I have all of the track down finally and scenery is probably about 95% complete and I am now enjoying putting finer details into the layout with little mini scenes. This is where I think HO scale is the winner. 

Space. This is probably what is the deciding factor. You can put a lot more layout into the same area compared to HO scale. What kind of a railroad do you want to have? Do you want to see long trains run continuously around the layout, or are you interested in perhaps a switching layout? 

I chose a switching layout although I did have to room for a much larger layout but enjoy the switching activity.


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