# Strange track problem



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Forgive me if there is an obvious answer. Honestly I'm hoping there is. Yesterday was my big guys 7th birthday. He absolutely loves the trains he got. Two pancake motor engines and one Athern, all with loco genies installed. He loves the remotes and the fact that dad can play with him at the same time. He even Ivan's to get mom involved!

They work ok for our purposes. However, we have an issue with one turnout. Nearly everytime one of them first through that turnout, there while track momentarily loses power and all the trains shutdown. When running DC only trains were didn't notice this problem. The power loss is momentary and they all come back on in a second or so. 

Track is all Atlas with custom line turnouts. One power drop at the start of the rail, nothing fancy. Any ideas what might be causing this? 

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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

My guess is that the locomotive wheels are bridging the insulated frog rails and causing a momentary short that causes the DCC controller to shutdown for a bit. I’ve not had this problem myself, but I’ve seen it come up regularly here on the forum. I can‘t recall specifics on how best to solve this, so I expect some others will jump in with direct experience. I seem to remember using nail polish to slightly increase the insulated area of the frog to prevent the short.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

vette-kid said:


> When running DC only trains were didn't notice this problem.


The problem was always there, it's just that DC locomotives and power packs are not as sensitive to momentary short circuits as DCC systems are. It sounds like the point rails are not in gauge.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

flyboy2610 said:


> The problem was always there, it's just that DC locomotives and power packs are not as sensitive to momentary short circuits as DCC systems are. It sounds like the point rails are not in gauge.


I was kind of assuming that to be the case. 

Can you explain what you by the point rails not being in Guage? Point rails are the rails that actually move on the turnout, correct?

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> My guess is that the locomotive wheels are bridging the insulated frog rails and causing a momentary short that causes the DCC controller to shutdown for a bit. I’ve not had this problem myself, but I’ve seen it come up regularly here on the forum. I can‘t recall specifics on how best to solve this, so I expect some others will jump in with direct experience. I seem to remember using nail polish to slightly increase the insulated area of the frog to prevent the short.


Thank you, I'll look into that. I do have other turnouts I could swap in there and see if that fixes it.

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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A temporary solution, that often becomes permanent, for wide wheel shorting
on frogs, is to 'paint' ONE of the frog rails where they come together with
clear nail polish. Not more than 1/8" or so, less if possible.
This prevents the wheel from electrically spanning
the frog rails and shorting. I had this situation, did the painting, and it
lasted for years.

Don


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Do not paint the top of rail.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

There are several possibilities. Yes, a metal tire might be making contact momentarily with both frog rails (those are the two inner rails that converge at the frog from the 'fat end' of the turnout). It happens at the black plastic spacer/insulator, but just beyond it where the two rails are still close together. One solution is to put a dab of clear nail polish on ONE OF those two frog rails immediately after the black insulator. You're extending it further on one of the two rails, but only by 1/8".

However, you might also be getting contact at the flanges between the closure rails. Those are the other two converging rails on the other side of the frog, the two that flare wide to make the frog guards.

By far the easiest solution is to check the gauge of the tire sets on your rolling stock, locomotives and cars. A more involved solution is to place thin styrene plastic covers on the wide guards opposite the frogs. You glue the shims onto the flange-guiding face of the guard rails, between the guards and the stock rails. This forces the entire axle closer to the stock rails, and helps to prevent the metal tires from bridging the two rails at the 'bottle necks' near the frog.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Forgive me if there is an obvious answer. Honestly I'm hoping there is. Yesterday was my big guys 7th birthday. He absolutely loves the trains he got. Two pancake motor engines and one Athern, all with loco genies installed. He loves the remotes and the fact that dad can play with him at the same time. He even Ivan's to get mom involved!
> 
> They work ok for our purposes. However, we have an issue with one turnout. Nearly everytime one of them first through that turnout, there while track momentarily loses power and all the trains shutdown. When running DC only trains were didn't notice this problem. The power loss is momentary and they all come back on in a second or so.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

I think the others may be assuming that you have Atlas "Snap Switch" turnouts with a plastic frog. That's the turnout that the nail polish solution works on. However, in your thread starter, you said you were using Atlas "Custom Line" turnouts. Those have metal frogs that have the option to be powered. Please check to see if the frogs on your turnouts are metal, or plastic. I think Mark's idea of a brief short circuit is correct, since it would produce the exact scenario you have described. If you are getting a brief short, then it's likely that your turnouts have plastic frogs, and that's where the short is happening. The two short rails exiting the frog are very close together at the frog end. They are also of opposite electrical polarities from each other. If a metal wheel does contact both rails it will cause a short and adding some nail polish on one of the rails will extend the insulated area a bit. If you really have the metal frog, "Custom Line" turnouts, that would be a different matter, and nail polish won't fix it.

Yes, you're right, the point rails are the two rails that move side-to-side with the throwbar. " Point rails (or any rails) being in gauge" means that they are the correct distance from each other, as measured with An NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) standards gauge, like those in the photo. All the wheels, on all the locomotives and cars, and every inch of track on the layout, including turnouts, need to be in correct gauge to keep things running well. Out of gauge wheels or track, can cause derailments, potentially this short circuit, and other problems.
If you don't have an NMRA gauge, I strongly recommend you get one. Besides measuring the gauge of wheels and track, it also measures several critical items on turnouts. The gauge come with printed directions. The attached file, "Improving Atlas turnouts" has photos of an NMRA gauge being used to check an Atlas turnout. It also has photos of the thin styrene strips (mesenteria called them "covers" in his excellent response.) being added to the guardrails to get the space between each guard rail, and its nearby running rail, (called a "flangeway" because the wheel flanges pass through it) to meet the standards of the gauge.

All of this is more complicated to describe verbally here, than it is to actually do. Adjusting wheels, and track, and especially turnouts, to meet the specs of the gauge prevents derailments, and may also help with your short circuit. An NMRA gauge costs $12, and you can order one from www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com 

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks for all the info. I'm not questioning if this turnout is a custom line or not. Most were, but this was a used lot of items and I'm not familiar enough with this stuff yet. If it helps, here is a picture of the turnout in question. I do believe the customs say custom line on the back. 


I have a Guage, but not that one. I will look into it though.









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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I don't know if Custom Line was ever made in brass. That looks like a #4 snap switch to me.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

A suggestion (not sure if it will work, but easy to try):
Install INSULATED rail joiners_ at the two locations shown here:_








You may need to also install additional power feeds (on the track beyond the insulated joints)...


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Thanks for all the info. I'm not questioning if this turnout is a custom line or not. Most were, but this was a used lot of items and I'm not familiar enough with this stuff yet. If it helps, here is a picture of the turnout in question. I do believe the customs say custom line on the back.
> 
> 
> I have a Guage, but not that one. I will look into it though.
> ...


vette-kid;

No, that is not an Atlas "custom line" turnout. It has a plastic frog, which is one definite indicator of an Atlas "snap switch" turnout. It also has one straight route, and one curved route. That configuration is unique to the snap switch. Also, as MichaelE says, It's doubtful that Atlas custom line turnouts were made with brass rails Possible though.
.
Atlas makes two completely different lines of turnouts. The snap switches are their low end turnouts, and the custom line turnouts are their better quality ones. Custom line turnouts can be recognised by their metal (not plastic) frogs, and their two straight routes, with no curved route. 
Atlas labeling can be confusing too. I have seen some Atlas turnouts with the words "custom line" printed on the package, and even stamped into the bottom of the plastic tie strip, which were identical to snap switches. In fact, they actually were snap switches, plastic frog, curved route, and all, just labeled wrong.

So, now that we know which kind of turnout we're dealing with, the nail polish fix should be tried. I think it may solve your problem. Also, when you get your NMRA gauge, use the info in the "Improving Atlas turnouts" file to make your Atlas snap switch turnouts quite reliable.
I notice that there is no Atlas "switch machine" attached to the side of the turnout in your photo. Do you have it disconnected from the turnout for some reason, or did it not come with the used turnout?
The absence of a switch machine can cause stalling on the point rails, since there is nothing to hold the point rail against the main running rail. There is a current path (of sorts) through those rivets, and a metal plate, between the point rail and the closure rail that it connects to. However, that current path is quite unreliable. This is another problem addressed in the "Improving Atlas turnouts" file.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Well that explains some of it. There are several switches labeled custom line and are new in the package. I think there is probably a mix of both. I have started reading your documents, I’ll dive deeper. The only derailment issues have been from running through incorrectly positioned turnouts.

Re the machine, it’s just not hooked up yet. I plan to use mighty mite machines for the accessory contacts ability to run signal lights through the switch. This seems like the simplest solution to user friendly turnouts with indicators. With this method the signal will accurately indicate the position of the switch machine which should be a high accuracy indication of actual turnouts position. Other methods seem to leave the possibility that the switch did not throw properly, but the indication will, leading to erroneous information. 


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Ok, I'm a little confused as to what I'm painting with the polish?

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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

See the red circled area in the picture below:









The two rails that diverge from this point have opposite polarity. If a metal wheel makes contact with both metal rails at the same time, it will cause a short. There should be a plastic frog creating a sharp point here that insulates the two rails. But sometimes the metal wheel is wide enough or the plastic frog isn't quite large enough to prevent the wheel from making contact with both rails. So the proposal is to apply a very thin and small amount of nail polish onto the metal rails to in effect extend the electrical insulation a bit beyond where the plastic frog stops. As one of the other members said, you probably only need 1/8" or less spot of nail polish.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Ok, I'm tracking now. Thanks for clearing it up.

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It fixed up my Peco #8 turnout just fine. I have a TRIX Br.187 with wide wheels that bridges that gap. The nail polish fix it.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

The other thread for reference... Peco #8 Turnout

That trick has worked on two of my turnouts. I have more to do because it seems every locomotive picks a different turnout to short.  I like the PECO turnouts an track, but I can't help but wonder if I'd have less of this problem with a different brand.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Stumpy said:


> The other thread for reference... Peco #8 Turnout
> 
> That trick has worked on two of my turnouts. I have more to do because it seems every locomotive picks a different turnout to short.  I like the PECO turnouts and track, but I can't help but wonder if I'd have less of this problem with a different brand.


Stumpy;

The other part of the problem is that the metal wheel should not be able to get far enough over to short those two rails. The fact that it can and, as you have experienced, does, is due to one, or perhaps two, things.
First, and most likely, is that the flangeways of nearly every brand of commercial turnouts, (including Peco) are too wide. (Micro Engineering turnouts are the exception. They have very slightly too narrow flangeways) This excess width lets the entire "wheelset" (two wheels on the same axle) move sideways at random, far enough to let the frog-side wheel get across those two rails, and cause the short.
The cure for this problem is to glue plastic shims to the inside surface of the guard rail, which narrows the flangeway to meet the specs of an NMRA gauge.
While you're at it, you might want to shim the bottom of the frog's flangeways to just touch the bottom of the "flangeways" tab on the NMRA gauge. This has no effect on short circuits, but it prevents the annoying vertical "drop-and-bounce-back-up" behavior of wheels traveling through the frog.

The other possible problem is that the wheels are out of gauge, or the wheels "treads" (the part that actually rides along the top of the rail) are too wide. Both can be checked with the NMRA gauge. The wheel flanges should fit into the "wheels" notches on the side of the gauge, and ideally the entire wheel should fit into the larger notch on the gauge.
You can usually adjust the wheel gauge by twisting one wheel clockwise and the other wheel counter-clockwise, while pulling the wheels further apart, or pushing them closer together, as needed, until they match the gauge. The only practical cure for too-wide treads is to replace the wheels with better quality aftermarket wheelsets. These usually have narrower treads. (While It is possible to turn down wheel treads, but it's an awful lot of work.) 

A turnout with the "DCC friendly" configuration will completely eliminate any possibility of this short, and also another one, a short between the point rail and the stock rail. 
DCC friendly turnouts have metal, "isolated" frogs. This means that the frog is electrically insulated from every other rail in the turnout. They also have each point rail, and its nearby "stock" (running) rail, jumpered together, with both at the same polarity, rather than opposite polarities.
Since the entire frog is one metal piece, there are no closely positioned rails of opposite polarity in the frog, to be shorted. If you run short, switcher type, locos with very few wheels that pickup power, you may need to power the metal frog, and use a frog juicer, or micro-switch contacts, to change the polarity of the frog. If your locomotives have all-wheel pickup, that may not be necessary. 
Micro Engineering, Peco Unifrog, and Atlas code 55 N-scale, turnouts come with the DCC friendly configuration from the factory. There are probably others too, and I think the Peco Electrofrog turnouts have this option, but I'm not sure.

The files below explain more about DCC friendly turnouts, how to add shims to flangeways, and turnouts in general. Note that the adding shims procedure in the "Improving Atlas turnouts" file can be used on any brand turnout, not just Atlas.

Good luck & have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Well that explains some of it. There are several switches labeled custom line and are new in the package. I think there is probably a mix of both. I have started reading your documents, I’ll dive deeper. The only derailment issues have been from running through incorrectly positioned turnouts.
> 
> Re the machine, it’s just not hooked up yet. I plan to use mighty mite machines for the accessory contacts ability to run signal lights through the switch. This seems like the simplest solution to user friendly turnouts with indicators. With this method the signal will accurately indicate the position of the switch machine which should be a high accuracy indication of actual turnouts position. Other methods seem to leave the possibility that the switch did not throw properly, but the indication will, leading to erroneous information.
> 
> ...


Vette-kid;

I suggest you start your reading with "Improving Atlas turnouts" and then "All about turnouts." I've sent you a lot more, and of course you're welcome to read them, but many don't apply to the little layout you have now. They might be helpful for a future layout.
I'm glad you're not having derailments. You're lucky, many have.
I'm not familiar with the "mighty mite" switch machine. Do you have any info on it that you can send me? 
As for your turnouts; if it doesn't have a metal frog, and two straight routes, it's not a custom line turnout, no matter what the package says. It doesn't really matter all that much. You will do OK with snap switch, custom line, or a mix.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks TF. I read through those two documents last night with more homework to come. A lot didn't apply directly to this situation, but it helps to understand the turnouts in general.

Mighty mite are old machines. The best I can do is an eBay link. I can pay up a picture of the instructions later if that helps. They seem quite powerful and work well so far. I just have to get them wired into the layout.









Tru-Scale HO Scale Mighty Mite Switch Machine NOS x4 | eBay


Tru-Scale HO Scale Mighty Mite Switch Machine NOS x4; THIS INCLUDES 4 OF THESE; ONE MAY NOT INCLUDE INSTRUCTIONS.



www.ebay.com






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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Here is a better listing with pictures. He's asking too much









Tru-Scale Mighty Mite Switch Motor MIB, for HO Train Layouts | eBay


Here up for sale is oneTrue-Scale brand Mighty Mite switch motor, mint in box. Contains switch motor, a slightly over 2.5" length of stiff wire, and instruction sheet. Sheet recommends to use these with an auxiliary transformer of 6 to 24 volts AC, and also states that the coils are wound for...



www.ebay.com






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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Here is a better listing with pictures. He's asking too much
> 
> 
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

Thanks for the info on "Mighty Mite switch machines". They are indeed old. They look like some ancient Tenshodo twin-coil machines I had about 40-45 years ago, but with a box wrapped around the mechanism. Those are not the easiest machines to install, or adjust. They are quite powerful, and do have contacts. However, a Tortoise machine is at least as powerful, and has enclosed micro switches that are resistant to dust and very reliable. The same is not always true for leaf type semi-exposed contacts like those on the Mighty Mite. I'm not trying to tell you they won't work, just that they can be a bit high maintenance at times. The old Tenshodo machines I had tended to shake themselves apart over time. The slam bang of the heavy duty snap-action mechanism would loosen the screws that held the thing together. I ended up reworking mine extensively to keep them together.
I also used a CDU (Capacitive Discharge Unit) to keep them from burning out. I suggest you reconsider buying mighty mites.

In my opinion, Tortoise, or Switchmaster, motors, or Caboose Industries ground throws, would all be better options. The Tortoise comes with two built-in micro-switches standard. The Caboose industries ground throws are available with optional contacts, and while the Switchmaster comes without contacts, It wouldn't be all that difficult to mount a micro-switch that would be triggered by a Switchmaster motor. There is also a super-simple low cost alternative. An ordinary electrical slide switch with a hole drilled through the plastic handle, can be mounted next to the throwbar of a turnout. Link the slide switch to the turnout's throwbar with a piece of brass wire, music wire, or even an unwound paper clip. Setting the slide switch also sets the turnout. Only two moving parts,(the switch handle and the wire.) The switch contacts will operate your signals.
The problem you might have with the Tortoise, or Switchmaster, is clearance. Both are designed to mount below the table, and you don't have a lot of room down under your layout.
I think your young son would have fun with the Caboose Industries ground throws. He could "Throw the switch" (aka turnout) just like the real thing on a full-size railroad.The model with contacts factory-installed would operate your signals.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'll add an alternative to the Tortoise motors: servo controls by Tam Valley Depot (my personal choice) or the very similar Walthers switch machines. I find both more intuitive to set up than the Tortoises.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

traction fan said:


> Stumpy;
> 
> The other part of the problem is that the metal wheel should not be able to get far enough over to short those two rails. The fact that it can and, as you have experienced, does, is due to one, or perhaps two, things.
> First, and most likely, is that the flangeways of nearly every brand of commercial turnouts, (including Peco) are too wide. This excess width lets the entire "wheelset" (two wheels on the same axle) move sideways at random, far enough to let the frog-side wheel get across those two rails, and cause the short.
> The cure for this problem is to glue plastic shims to the inside surface of the guard rail, which narrows the flangeway to meet the specs of an NMRA gauge.


I'll have to check that out. Seems it would be a more permanent solution than nail polish. Thanks.

BTW... all turnouts are insulfrogs, so the frog is plastic.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> I'll add an alternative to the Tortoise motors: servo controls by Tam Valley Depot (my personal choice) or the very similar Walthers switch machines. I find both more intuitive to set up than the Tortoises.


Can either be mounted on top of the table?

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Thanks for the suggestions. I was about convinced to go with the ground throws, but there's two problems.

First, the Chief conductor wants buttons! Second, while those would work great for the turnouts on the front of the layout, there will be a years accessed from the back which is to far to reach for a ground throw. Those will have to be remote.

Also, I am able to get the front turnouts under the table, but three or for in the back will have to bed on top. Even if there was room to fit one, access to install it on another issue. I could raise the table by using 2x4 instead of 2x2, but I would have to disassemble the table completely to install them. That isn't going to happen. So those need to be remote, surface mount machines. 

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Back to the turnouts for a minute. The comment about custom line being mislabeled got new curious, so I had a look. Here are three different turnouts I have. Two came out of a box as pictured, still wrapped. All three are different and the only one labeled "custom line" on the turnout is the middle one that clearly had a plastic frog. Note they are all brass as indicated in the box. So they must have made them in brass. They say "custom line supreme", not sure if there is a difference. Just kind of interesting, guess you never know what you've got until you open the box and inspect. I'm my case, I didn't know anyway, but oh well. 

And in A drawer full of nail polish, my wife and daughter do not have ANY clear! I'll just try and replace it later with a different one.

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You could also use any other color. At least you'll know where the bad spots are from the color coding on the rail.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

MichaelE said:


> You could also use any other color. At least you'll know where the bad spots are from the color coding on the rail.


I have my limits! 

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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I wouldn't worry about it matching your shoes...


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Note the price tag on the box? I really miss those days. The last time I had a train that was the typical price for an Atlas turnout. Fast-forward to a few years ago when I got back in the hobby, and the typical price was closer to $40. Talk about sticker shock!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Can either be mounted on top of the table?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vette-kid;

Yes, it would be physically possible to mount either a Tortoise motor, or a servo, on top of the table. They would work fine, but both, particularly the Tortoise, are bulky, and many would consider them ugy additions to a scene. It might be possible to disguise them by putting a building, or hill, over them; just make sure whatever hides them is removable for maintenance.

The Atlas switch machines you already have are functional, if not great, switch machines, and of course, they are already mounted on the surface. They are also controlled by buttons.*
Caboose Industries ground throws needn't necessarily be restricted only to turnouts within reach, neither does the electrical slide switch I suggested. Either can be mounted up front, and connected to a distant turnout by a very simple mechanical linkage. I do this on my own layout because I'm old, and partially disabled. I can't really get under the layout easily (to put it mildly!) So all my turnout motors are mounted in front, and use a rod-inside-a-tube linkage to move the points of the turnout. Now I'm well aware that the day has not dawned when you have any interest in duplicating the complex arrangement shown in the 1rst photo! 😄
However, the actual linkage is very simple. (see second photo) The 1/8" dia. brass tubes shown have .047" music wire rods inside them. Pushing or pulling on the rod moves the points of the turnout. The linkage can be mounted below even your low clearance layout, or it can be on top. If you do surface mount linkages, smaller (1/16") tube and rod can be used, and more easily disguised.
I use motors for "route control" but a simple lever, or push/pull button will work fine for setting individual turnouts. (see photos 3 & 4) Whether your "conductor in chief" will consider this kind of button acceptable is another matter.
A micro-switch can be hooked to such a mechanical linkage to operate signals if you choose, I have micro-switches attached to my linkages for frog polarity and other purposes. Atlas switch machines use buttons, and Tortoise & servos use toggle switches. I'm guessing any of those control devices would fit his requirements.

* One important difference, considering the age of the operator, is that holding the Atlas button down for more than 2 seconds, can burn out the coils in the Atlas switch machine. 
Using a simple circuit called a Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU) prevents coil such burnout no matter how long the button is held down. Since the "blue button" controls that come with Atlas turnouts are themselves somewhat prone to shorting out, here is a better alternative. The Stapleton 751D turnout control is both much higher quality than the Atlas blue button, and also has a CDU built right into it. If you elect to use the Atlas switch machines, I highly recommend using Stapleton 751D controls to operate them. The Tortoise, and servo, are a different story. The toggle switch that controls them can be left on indefinitely without harm.

So, you have lots of options for controlling turnouts. Any should work. You two guys just need to pick your favorite.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Can either be mounted on top of the table?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Nope. The machine itself goes under the table. There is a pushbutton actuator which is typically mounted on the fascia or a dispatcher's panel, but it could be mounted next to the turnout if you wanted to. I personally prefer my layout surface uncluttered and my turnout motors invisible.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

TF, thanks again for all the information. Your tight, I have no interest in that top photo... You got a lot going on there! 

I like the 751, my only hesitation and why the mighty mite is attractive is that it virtually eliminates the chance of an out of sync signal. If the machine or turnout doesn't throw all the way for some reason, the light will not change. With the 751, and other options, if the machine doesn't throw properly, the signal can still change giving a false indication. 

I've only tested the mighty mite on my work bench, but it was reliable in that environment. But yes, VERY difficult to adjust. I probably fiddled with that one for over an hour just getting it in a position it would throw the bar correctly and then it was discreet further away than I'd like. But you can hold down the button all night and not hurt it (I tried holding it down for 20 seconds and had no issues, it stops after the initial movement). 

751 pros are the toggles are a cleaner, easier switch than the Atlas plastic. Allows surface mount machines and signal control. Also allows for manual control in the event of failure. Cons are the chance of a false signal (signal indicates switch position only). I have an email out to them.

I was almost there on the ground throws, but it looks like several would have to be remote mounted and that causes some difficulty with my table setup. They will not fit between parallel track.

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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Not having to worry about things fitting between parallel tracks is another argument in favor of the under table arrangement.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Not having to worry about things fitting between parallel tracks is another argument in favor of the under table arrangement.


I'd agree with you in most circumstances. It just isn't feasible. Chief of household is not going to allow a table type layout. This area is our only real option, or a counter top that would have similar issues. It's just an obstacle to overcome. 

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> TF, thanks again for all the information. Your tight, I have no interest in that top photo... You got a lot going on there!
> 
> I like the 751, my only hesitation and why the mighty mite is attractive is that it virtually eliminates the chance of an out of sync signal. If the machine or turnout doesn't throw all the way for some reason, the light will not change. With the 751, and other options, if the machine doesn't throw properly, the signal can still change giving a false indication.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

The choice is yours, of course, but I want to address some of the concerns you mentioned, and, first, to comment on the mighty might's ability to survive long button pushes. Those old Tenshodo twin-coil machines I had (and the mighty mite's innards appear identical) could be wired to cut off the 16- 20 volts or so of AC current often used to throw them, with one of of their three sets of contacts. This worked by routing the operating current to the coils through a set of contacts. When the burst of power came along, the coil was energized briefly and the contacts were opened when the switch machine changed position. The other coil was now set up to receive current by other contacts. Flip a toggle switch on the control panel, the coil fires, and the switch machine changes back to the original position. Using this "less than spectacularly reliable design" allowed our model railroading ancestors to use SPDT (CONSTANT ON) toggle switches to operate the turnouts. You may see the catch coming. Absolutely everything, including whether the switch machine would work at all, and signal indications, and route control, and whatever else they wired into them, depended on those contacts working flawlessly. ......................They didn't.
Instead, the contacts got dirty, or corroded, or out of alignment because the screws holding them in place were loosened by the vibration of the switch machine's own operation, or the contacts got (literally) "bent out of shape" by the heat of the often heavy current passing through them.

Now I'm speaking in terms of the ancient Tenshodos that I wrestled with for years before getting smart enough to replace them with something more reliable. (stall motors)
The mighty mite"s contacts may be held in place better, your signals aren't going to draw any real current, and the mighty mite does have a cover (which I hope is removable) that will provide some protection against dirt build-up, but none against moisture & corrosion. So, mighty mights are not necessarily "Those old # $#@^& Tenshodos in a box" as I'm guessing, but they certainly look like it to me.

I get what your saying about the Stapleton's signal indication capability. A commonly used system employs a DPDT toggle switch mounted on the control panel with one set of its contacts wired to indicator lights/signals, either on that panel, or out on the layout.
These lights tell you which way the toggle switch is thrown. Something that should be blatantly obvious by just looking at the switch itself. They don't tell you diddly squat about what position the turnout is in. Neither, really, do the contacts in a mighty mite, or the Micro-switches in a Tortoise. They do get you one step closer to the information you need, but they are really only telling you what the contacts/ micro-switches/switch machines are doing, not the actual turnouts. and if the contacts are bent, dirty, corroded, whatever, not even that.
You indicated, (I think) that sometimes the points didn't throw all the way during your mighty mite tests. (It came out of auto correct, "it was discrete further away than I would like" ???) Contacts might, or might not, tell you whether the points were thrown all the way.
The only way to know for certain would be to mount a micro-switch, or other sensor, at either end of the throwbar's travel, and apart from that being a major pain to install, even it wouldn't be foolproof.

Remote control of turnouts with layout edge or control panel mounted ground throws, or slide switches, should not interfere with your track, or track spacing, at all. The turnout-operating end of the linkage connected back to the ground throw is shown below. Click on the photo's title, "Switch machine green points JPG" to enlarge the photo. As you can see, this end of the linkage is very small, and mounted between the rails of one track, not between two parallel tracks.
The ground throw's contacts are, of course, in the ground throw, so it (sort of) has the same limitation as the Stapleton, but since the linkage is super-simple, and therefore super-reliable, it would give an accurate indication of turnout position 95% + of the time, which, I think, makes it at least equal to, if not superior to, the assumed reliability of the mighty mite.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Sorry about my lack of proof reading. The mighty mite has shown to be very reliable, at least in terms of contact position matching switch position. I've yet to see it throw the contact without moving the switch. but I had to mount it a few inches away from the turnout to get it to work properly. That's not ideal. Ideally it would be right next to it.

The answer is, there is no perfect answer probably for any situation. For now I'm going to order the 751Ds and use the Atlas machines. I can still use the mighty mite as well with the 751. I think you had recommended it earlier in another post as well. I had some of the mighty mite on hand so they seemed like an easy solution... They are not. 

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Sorry about my lack of proof reading. The mighty mite has shown to be very reliable, at least in terms of contact position matching switch position. I've yet to see it throw the contact without moving the switch. but I had to mount it a few inches away from the turnout to get it to work properly. That's not ideal. Ideally it would be right next to it.
> 
> The answer is, there is no perfect answer probably for any situation. For now I'm going to order the 751Ds and use the Atlas machines. I can still use the mighty mite as well with the 751. I think you had recommended it earlier in another post as well. I had some of the mighty mite on hand so they seemed like an easy solution... They are not.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vette-kid;

It sounds like you have a workable plan there. Good luck & have fun.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I'm actually having a blast. I love trying to work through these puzzles.

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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> I'd agree with you in most circumstances. It just isn't feasible. Chief of household is not going to allow a table type layout. This area is our only real option, or a counter top that would have similar issues. It's just an obstacle to overcome.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Make your layout out of 2 layers of 1" foam. Cut a hole in the bottom layer under where the turnout will be and mount the switch machine inside of it. The bottom of the lower layer will sit on your benchwork / counter / whatever, and the turnout machine won't be visible or interfere with the positioning or level of the layout.

As TF said, do what you want, but really, Henry Ford was right: "If you think you can do something, or think you can't do something, you're right." Almost everything is possible; you just have to figure out how.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

CT Valley, I certainly appreciate all the advice I've gotten from you, traction fan and others on here. And there just certainly is a way, several. I just don't want to gain the height for now. If the Atlas machines give me headaches, we may look at switching to something else and take more drastic changes to the layout.

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> CT Valley, I certainly appreciate all the advice I've gotten from you, traction fan and others on here. And there just certainly is a way, several. I just don't want to gain the height for now. If the Atlas machines give me headaches, we may look at switching to something else and take more drastic changes to the layout.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


 vette-kid;

If you operate those Atlas switch machines with the CDU included in your Stapleton 751D controller, you should not have any serious problems with them. Their biggest deficiencies ares their weak throw, and coil burnout. The Atlas turnouts are made with very easy to move points which helps compensate for the weak switch machine. Also a CDU will fire a quick, powerful burst of electricity, which helps to move the points reliably. A CDU will also make coil burnout impossible, and it does so electronically, not with electro-mechanical contacts like the mighty mite. So, again, I think you have a workable system. Enjoy it. BTW I gave my 5-year old grandson his first model train today, he loves it!

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Ok, making progress. I painted all of the plastic frog turnouts and have greatly reduced the number of shorts. Virtually no existent with all trains but the Athern. I got a short today on this turnout. As soon as the first wheel hit the frog (low speed) it shorted with a nice spark. 

I'm going to keep watching it to see if it repeats, but if there anything obvious here? 

Septate note, you've convinced me to go under table for at least most of the machines. I have a handful of PL10s that I forgot about. Back turnouts will remain surface mount for now.










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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

vette-kid
that frog appears to be insulated and totally un-connected to any power source, is that correct? Or are you powering the frog somehow?


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

0.566-0.575 is the NMRA spec for distance between the insides of HO wheel flanges. Out of curiosity, what does the Athearn check at?
S-4.2 Scale Wheels <Link


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

cid said:


> vette-kid
> that frog appears to be insulated and totally un-connected to any power source, is that correct? Or are you powering the frog somehow?


I have not powered them. I will take measurements and get back. My garage hasn't arrived yet, but I do have calipers

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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

OK good. What I am thinking is, that if the frog has no connection whatsoever, that any wheel touching it cannot cause a short without also touching two rails.
Maybe check with a meter to ensure there is no power on the frog, possibly from a compromised internal jumper connection under the frog.
The other possibility is that a wheel set is too close together, causing a wheel to bridge both rails at the frog entry. I'm not saying that either of these is common
but either could explain the short. Only the wheelset would be associated with only one loco and not the others. It;s very puzzling. A gentleman on modelrairoader forum recently identified an internally shorted atlas switch which was a little difficult to track down, being one out of 44 installed switches/turnouts.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If all the other engines do not have a problem then it seems their is something unusual about just that engine. It also seems it would have problems at almost all the turnouts. Conflicting evidence here. Are you sure the points were set right?


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Ok, my Guage came in today. But I don't understand what I'm supposed to be looking at. Yes, I read the instructions.

Also, the frog is powered. I did not realize that it was, I have not done anything to wire it... Just connected the rail joiners. I'm learning here. These turnouts are a little more complicated than I have them credit for.

As to the loco, I'm not sure. We did get s few shorts with the f7 on other turnouts before the nail polish trick. But this send to be there only loco doing it on this turnout. This one is not polished, but probably will be soon.










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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> Ok, making progress. I painted all of the plastic frog turnouts and have greatly reduced the number of shorts. Virtually no existent with all trains but the Athern. I got a short today on this turnout. As soon as the first wheel hit the frog (low speed) it shorted with a nice spark.
> 
> I'm going to keep watching it to see if it repeats, but if there anything obvious here?
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

UPDATE: You made your most recent post while I was still composing this response. I'm glad you got your NMRA gauge. Later in this response I'll ask you to check some things with it. Also my "Improving Atlas turnouts" shows photos of the gauge being used on a turnout, starting on page eight. 
The metal frog on this turnout should not have power on it now. Since it does, there must be a connection to one, or more, of the rails in the turnout. There may be metal jumpers to the frog under the tie strip. If there are any, they should be removed, so that the frog is not powered. You should not paint the frog. It shouldn't be necessary if the frog can be electrically disconnected from the rails. Painting a metal frog also negates its big advantage. A metal frog can be powered which helps locos with few power pickups get through the turnout, but the electrical polarity needs to change with the route. Read on please.

First, The Turnout;

The turnout in your photo actually is an Atlas "Custom Line" turnout with a metal frog. The frog is, or at least appears to be, "isolated." If true, that's a very good thing. Use a multimeter set for ohms of resistance, to check if there is any connection between the frog, and any other rail in the turnout. An isolated frog should be just that, electrically isolated from every other rail in the turnout. Since this is a mass production, commercial, turnout though, I wouldn't be surprised if one, or more, rails are connected to the frog with metal jumper straps under the plastic tie strip. So, what's so good about an isolated frog? It means the frog can be powered, and have its electrical polarity changed to match the route. This, electrically, makes the frog into just one more piece of rail powered for the selected route. There will be no opposite polarity rails to short to, no nail polish needed, and even locomotives that have few wheels picking up power should pass smoothly through the turnout.
An Isolated frog is also part of the DCC friendly configuration. So are the point/closure rails insulated from each other, which are normal on an Atlas turnout. If you ever go to DCC, the only remaining modification to make this turnout DCC friendly, is to add jumpers between each point rail, and the stock rail nearest to it. Considering the age of this brass-rail turnout, Atlas must have been pretty forward looking as DCC was not even thought of, much less invented, back when this turnout was made! 😄

Now, The Athearn Locomotive;

Since you are getting sparks and shorts from only one locomotive, (presumably on the same turnout) then it stands to reason that something must be different about that particular locomotive.
Since you now have your NMRA gauge, use it to check both the "wheel gauge," (The distance between the two wheels on each axle.) and the "tread width." (The thickness of the part of each wheel that rides along the top of the rail.)
If the wheel gauge is off spec. adjust it. You may need to either push the wheels inward, or pull them outward, on each axle, until the wheel flanges fit into the "wheels" slots on the gauge. If your locomotive is new, the tread width is probably OK. You check it on the NMRA gauge with the large slot right next to the two small "wheels" slots. The entire wheel should fit into this large slot. If the tread is too wide, that may be causing the short. Unless you were to completely disassemble the locomotive and turn the wheel treads narrower on a lathe, there's nothing you can do about the tread. Somehow, I don't see you doing that! 😄

You can, however, do some things to the turnout to help remedy the short.

(1) Glue plastic shims in the guard rail flangeways. (See my "improving Atlas turnouts" file, starting on page 8.) While this modification is usually done to remedy derailments, It also affects shorts between the rails in a plastic frog. The entire "wheelset" (two wheels on the same axle) is forced outward, away from the frog, a bit, and this may move the wheel that goes through the frog over far enough not to hit the other rail.
Since the turnout in your photo has a metal frog, this may not apply, but in any case it's a good thing to do, in terms of preventing derailments. (I know, you never have any) Still, It's very simple to do, and it certainly can't hurt anything.

(2) Remove any jumpers that connect the metal frog of your turnout to any other rail. This should create a "dead" (not powered at all) frog. Try the Athearn Locomotive again with the dead frog. It may work better and not short. Ultimately, you can connect a wire to the frog and use a product called a "Frog Juicer" to change the frog's polarity. Then, as described earlier, the frog will become just another piece of correctly powered rail, with no shorts.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I forgot to mention, it does change polarity with the turnout position. Here is a picture of the underside of a different piece. They appear identical from the top, as do the remainder of the metal frog turnouts I checked so far. I have a handful of these left. 

The wheels appear in Guage, I'll recheck when I get a chance. I'll have to reread you paper and digest some more.










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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> I forgot to mention, it does change polarity with the turnout position. Here is a picture of the underside of a different piece. They appear identical from the top, as do the remainder of the metal frog turnouts I checked so far. I have a handful of these left.
> 
> The wheels appear in Guage, I'll recheck when I get a chance. I'll have to reread you paper and digest some more.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

Well, if it's consistently changing polarity with the route, then you shouldn't have a short, or even the possibility of a short, from two rails being bridged by a wheel. Nail polish won't fix it either, at least I don't think it would. In a plastic frog you have two opposite polarity rails very close together. The one piece metal frog simply isn't set up that way. You may possibly be getting a short between the point and stock rails, or elsewhere in the turnout. It's also possible that the polarity changing hardware is malfunctioning, and the frog would then be of opposite polarity from the rail. Where did you see the spark?

Traction Fan


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

In my picture of the turnout in question, it's happening with the train going left to right as soon as the first wheel hits the frog section.

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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

vette-kid said:


> In my picture of the turnout in question, it's happening with the train going left to right as soon as the first wheel hits the frog section.


Is it happening with both branches of the turnout or only one of them?


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Is it happening with both branches of the turnout or only one of them?


Hmm, I'll have to test that a few times and get back to you

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> In my picture of the turnout in question, it's happening with the train going left to right as soon as the first wheel hits the frog section.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vett-kid;

For the spark to occur as the wheel bridges the gap between the rail and the frog, the frog would have to be a different polarity than the rail. If they were the same polarity, as they are supposed to be, there would be no difference in polarity to cause the spark. That leads me to think that your frog is not always changing polarity when it should. This is not too surprising, since whatever polarity switching contacts Atlas is using are very old, probably brass, and probably corroded.
The Atlas "Custom Line" is out of my line since they don't make custom line turnouts in N-scale. Several forum members, including telltale, I think, are long time users of Atlas custom line turnouts. Maybe they can help. Personally, if this turnout were on my layout, I'd rip out the original Atlas jumpers, make sure the frog is isolated, and install a frog juicer. 

Good Luck with it;

Traction Fan


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I was thinking of that possibility, I just don't understand how. Looks like it's a simple mechanical operation. If the points are moving then the contact should as well. I may dissect one this weekend. The locos all seem to do fine on the plastic frog turnouts with the nail polish, so I suppose I could just disconnect power from these frogs as well. 

If I go DCC, how would that change anything? We are mostly running the loco genies now, which is essentially like DCC using regular DC current and signals are sent wirelessly instead of through the rails. Point being, you run full power to the rails and they don't like power hiccups. They seem fine on this setup once we got past the initial issues. 

I'll have about a week on my own coming up, so I hope to have time to actually investigate and read further.

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> I was thinking of that possibility, I just don't understand how. Looks like it's a simple mechanical operation. If the points are moving then the contact should as well. I may dissect one this weekend. The locos all seem to do fine on the plastic frog turnouts with the nail polish, so I suppose I could just disconnect power from these frogs as well.
> 
> If I go DCC, how would that change anything? We are mostly running the loco genies now, which is essentially like DCC using regular DC current and signals are sent wirelessly instead of through the rails. Point being, you run full power to the rails and they don't like power hiccups. They seem fine on this setup once we got past the initial issues.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

Yes, as I suggested earlier, you could just remove the metal jumpers feeding power to the frog, and carry on with a "dead" frog. If that doesn't work well with all your locomotives, you could always install a Frog Juicer. Since it is a purely electronic device, with no electromechanical contacts to get dirty, it would be very reliable.

Going to DCC wouldn't fix your short circuit at that frog. It would only give you better slow speed performance and the possibility of having sounds come out of your locomotives. If you're happy with loco genies, and given the small size & simplicity of your layout, I would think you can do without DCC, at least for now. 

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The frog appears to be electrically connected to the points (check that with a multimeter) both points should be connected together and to the frog. Of course that does not explain what you see happening. Don't leave us hanging it you find out what the problem was


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

traction fan said:


> vette-kid;
> 
> Yes, as I suggested earlier, you could just remove the metal jumpers feeding power to the frog, and carry on with a "dead" frog. If that doesn't work well with all your locomotives, you could always install a Frog Juicer. Since it is a purely electronic device, with no electromechanical contacts to get dirty, it would be very reliable.
> 
> ...


"should" being a key word there. My son loves the loco genie, what kid doesn't love anything with a remote control?! I have aquired several locomotives, some DCC ready, but all DC only for now. After having a taste of the remote control and sound, he is hesitant to play with the DC models. Understandable. I'd like to upgrade some of my locos with DCC and that way he can use his along with mine (loco genie equipped trains can operate in either system). I may try a genie in one of them, but I'd like to experiment with other decoders and see if the performance is better. 

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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> "should" being a key word there. My son loves the loco genie, what kid doesn't love anything with a remote control?! I have aquired several locomotives, some DCC ready, but all DC only for now. After having a taste of the remote control and sound, he is hesitant to play with the DC models. Understandable. I'd like to upgrade some of my locos with DCC and that way he can use his along with mine (loco genie equipped trains can operate in either system). I may try a genie in one of them, but I'd like to experiment with other decoders and see if the performance is better.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


vette-kid;

Whatever you and your son want, that works, is automatically the best option for you guys. Perhaps I used the wrong word regarding the frog juicer option. "Will", rather than "should." There are hundreds, if not thousands, of frog juicers in use, and they do work very reliably. Frog juicers are made for the specific purpose of changing the polarity of a frog. (Though they can also be used with reverse loops.) They change what kind of electrical "juice" goes to the frog, hence the name. They actually work because of the type of short circuit you are experiencing. The frog juicer senses the short and instantly reverses the polarity. Whether you use one, or stick with the original Atlas contacts is strictly your choice. If you take the turnout apart, you may find the actual contacts, and cleaning them may solve your problem. I hope so, and I would be curious to see a photo of what's actually in there.
As I said before, I have zero experience with Atlas "Custom Line" turnouts, since they're not made in N-scale. The only Atlas turnouts I do have experience with are the "Snap Switch", plastic frog, variety. Back in the distant past I used some HO-scale "Snap Switches" with brass rail, about the same vintage as yours. Later I had experience (mostly bad) with the N-scale "Snap Switches."

I don't know anything about loco genie. I didn't even know that it existed until you first mentioned it. Now you say you have sound with it? That's good. Your son probably loves it! What kid doesn't like a toy that makes noise?

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Ok, started having troubles with turnout A again. I THINK I figured out what going on. Maybe I painted the wrong end of the rails, the plastic on the inside of this rail is worn off and I'm getting contact here. I'll paint that and try again.

Side note,I hooked up the home built DCC and ran the loco genies with it. Works great and my son prefers using his tablet! So now I have a few DCC/sound decoders to install on some other trains and we are off!

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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Well I tried to upload pics but I seen to have reached my monthly limit.

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