# dcc equipment



## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

Being a newbie, i am coming to a close on my research of a dcc system. gotta save, but i think im going to try a Digitrax system. I have to choose between two different systems they offer. one of the differences is cost of course. One of the other is amps. 

Here's where i need your experience. The three amp system is cheaper of course. but, how many trains can you run at once before you start to notice power loss on a three amp system?

Is there any other stats that are important that i may have overlooked in my newbie-izm? 

Also, no manufacturer that i have read upon says if there are decoders in kit. (starter kits are what ive been looking at)Are they usually separate?

I have chosen this system thus far because of it easy to use, up-gradable, and seems to have lots of tech support. including online manuals even for the out dated models.

How am i doing?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Sounds like you have been doing some home work. I have digitrax and very happy. 
Some have NCE and they are happy.
Starter DCC systems do not come with any decoders.
Now, how many will 3 amps run. It does depend on what locomotives you run. If you run old locos, they draw more amps than newer ones. You are pretty safe figuring 1/2 amp
draw from locomotives. At that 6 would be the answer. But many draw less, like maybe 1/4 amp. So maybe 8 or more. Sound decoders draw more than non sound. But here is my opinion. Your command station will get warmer or hotter running at or near max draw.
The more you draw the harder the unit runs. Creates heat. Some guys put a cooling fan
on back of their command station.
I am going to guess the other digitrax system you are looking at is a 5 amp system. I wanted to run maybe 12 powered locos. I bought a 8 amp system. It is over kill but
they don't get hot. Electronics do not like heat. Here is what I found out when I bought mine 3 years ago. The 8 amp was less than $25.00 more than the 5 amp. Cheap 3 amps.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

That's a thoughtful reply by MOPAC.

Work = Heat. Not only in your command station, but in the tiny motor covered with thin plastic (boiler or shell of the locomotive), and also the decoder, itself. If the decoder barely fits and is very close to plastic, they'll both get very warm as the decoder puts close to its maximum rated amperage through itself and beyond to the drive system. We normally try to avoid working things close to their limits, especially when there are no transmission coolers, oil coolers, radiators, or fans as we have on our 1:1 cars and trains.

Most modern decoders are rated for a stall current near 1.5-2 amps. But, with normal running, pulling 20 freeish-rolling cars on mostly flat terrain, your decoder will be using near 0.5 amps, maybe closer to 0.8 amps with sound. Full volume, as you get them sent from the factory, somewhat more...mebbe. I turn my Master Volume down to about 50-60% normally, so that cuts down on the heat the poor decoder must endure. Add more grade, or more cars, or more resistance in the turning axles, or all of those, you could see the amps ramping up to near 1 full amp, still well below what the decoder is rated for. Still...your experience and preferences will vary, so think along those lines.

I think most of us on 50 square foot layouts operating a couple of lashups, say four sound-equipped modern locomotives, will come to about 2 amps if they're pulling long trains. That still leaves a lot of room on your Zephyr.

Later, you can add a booster someplace if/or as your layout grows, or your appetite for power grows. Your Zephyr will still be your command station.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

ok, min 5amp. decoders separate. minimize the work load to reduce heat, but at the same time bigger amps will do the same. 

Keep feeding my sponge boys!

Do I have to purchase digitrax decoders? or will other manufacturers work?


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

omg! decoders! sound or not?snap in, plug in, wire in????? AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
If you guys will suffer another question, forget the sound option for now, the type of decoder... based on the system i buy or personal preference on how i want to wire it in?
eg.... digitrax are snap in, bachman are wire in, and ntc are plug in???


This stuff giving me a headache. going to bed. Why is there so much secrecy about this stuff? they are trying to sell a beginner package, give the beginner the info they need to make a successful purchase. would be a good start to brand loyalty, no?


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## FzCruzer (Dec 24, 2016)

Disclaimer, I am a noob.

All decoders can operate across all DCC systems. If you have Digitrax and go to a club or buddy that uses NEC your engine will work in their layout if using their throttle.

DCC ready locomotives mainly means they have a standard size plug, (8 pin?) that a decoder can be plugged into.

If converting a DC loco to DCC then you would or could hardware the decoder in after properly doing the wiring changes.

Some decoders give smoother slow speed control than others, cheap versus more expensive. Some decoders also have more functions than others.

Hope this help until a more experienced member can help.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

ExONRcarman said:


> omg! decoders! sound or not?snap in, plug in, wire in????? AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
> If you guys will suffer another question, forget the sound option for now, the type of decoder... based on the system i buy or personal preference on how i want to wire it in?
> eg.... digitrax are snap in, bachman are wire in, and ntc are plug in???
> 
> ...


Fortunately, the original purveyors of DCC, the Lenz Corporation, were both visionary and generous. They soon opened their engineering to the HO world and beyond, and soon after the North American Model Railroading Association (NMRA) adopted those standards. Soon, other brands of decoders and control systems were being marketed, and we haven't looked back. One caution: Mike's Train House (MTH) sells their unique decoders and the proprietary control system for them called DC, for Digital Control System ...I believe. If you go DCC, your system will not be able to operate the MTH decoders fully, but you'll still be able to program some of the variables and get the locomotive to move.

Decoders made by X, if NMRA-compliant, will be fully controllable by Systems A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. All of them that are DCC. Same for decoders from B Corp, C Corp, and so on. It's just the DCS decoders you have to be aware of, those from MTH. Decoders from Digitrax, Lens, Model Rectifier Corp (MRC), Train Control Systems (TCS), and Soundtraxx (the Tsunami variants), and all others that meet NMRA guidelines and rules, can be fully controlled on any modern DCC system. U pick 'em, they go.

It's ironic you use the word 'secrecy'. The fact is, and you should now understand the irony based on the paragraphs above, is that DCC is wide open. Anyone can make a DCC decoder and sell it. Anyone can bring their own brand of controller to market. If it sells, it means it works as the buyers expected it to and you have been getting attaboys on line. It is only DCS from Mike's Train House that are secretive and proprietary. 

I didn't say it isn't a learning experience. Decoders vary, but so do the locomotives into which you hope to insert them. Every manufacturer designs different frames and drive arrangements. Meaning, some decoders will fit under the plastic shell and some won't. Some won't withstand the amperage draw of a particular drive mechanism, some will easily handle the amperage and the associated heat. Some sell trains where all it takes is lifting the shell, pulling out a jumper or circuit board, inserting the decoder, attaching a quick connector, often just a six or eight pin plug, tuck it all in with tape, restore the shell, and test it on a low voltage track. Some older stock, you'll actually have to solder connections. Some, you'll have to re-mill parts of the metal frame if you want to get the best decoder into there (that's fortunately rare unless you really are trying to mate a large decoder with an older, pre-2005 frame).

There are many decent how-to's on youtube. Or, ask someone on this and other forums to talk you through it who knows how to do it with your locomotives.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

If you want my advice if you're a beginner get a beginner package, NCE PowerCab, Digitrax Zephyr, whatever. You really don't need 5amps for starters. They will run whatever you are starting with and all are upgradable should you feel the need later. If deciding what spec to go for is giving you a headache please get one that you can understand it's operation as well as the manual, it will save you much frustration. You should be able to read them on line.

Regarding decoders any loco with a eight pin plug is simplicity itself to install, if its older it will need hard wiring which is rather more time consuming but is possible with time and patience and a soldering iron. All makes offer plug in, wire in or direct plug(no wires) decoders. As FzCruzer says you can use any decoder but some are better than others especially if you value smooth operation. I'd recommend Lenz, ESU and Zimo. Bit more than the others but worth the extra imho.

I would call mesenteria to account for saying most decoders are rated at 1.5-2amps, most, in my experience are rated at 1-1.2amp but that shouldn't bother you unless you are running older motors and you can always do a stall test. I'd agree that sound decoders need turing down, they are set far too high from the factory, I run some of mine at 10% of max.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

Thanks guys, i realize now i could have asked my question better, but your thoughtfulness and patient answers i did get the answer i was looking for.

I think i better explain my situation a little before you guys get tired of me, lol. Get your google map open, i think everyone knows where the great lakes are, or at least they are easy to find. North side of lake superior you should find a city of thunder bay. from there follow the number 11 hwy north till that hwy turns directly south. You have found the town of cochrane. Hello. thats me.

I have no hobby shops here. No clubs for a minimum 8 hour round trip, if its still there. There are some fellow enthusiasts next city over, 3 hour round trip. 

You guys are all i got. Thank you from the bottom of my soul for your help.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Here's a real life example of power draw. I posted this on a thread of its own some time ago. I have and NCE Power Cab.

When I'm running a Bachmann 2-6-0 with sound, a Bachmann GP38 with sound, and a Walthers F40PH without sound pulling 4 passenger cars, 2 with incandescent lights (power from axle wipers so it adds friction), it draws .5 amps max. It runs between .4 to
.5 amps. This is running the steamer at 5/28, GP38 @ 10/28, AND F40PH at max. Sounding the horn/whistle or ringing the bell has little effect on the current draw. 

So that's 2 sound locomotives and one non sound pulling incandescent lighted high rolling resistance passenger coaches drawing .5 amp max.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

Thank you dave. That give me more perspective.
How large is your lay out?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

ExONRcarman said:


> Thanks guys, i realize now i could have asked my question better, but your thoughtfulness and patient answers i did get the answer i was looking for.
> 
> I think i better explain my situation a little before you guys get tired of me, lol. Get your google map open, i think everyone knows where the great lakes are, or at least they are easy to find. North side of lake superior you should find a city of thunder bay. from there follow the number 11 hwy north till that hwy turns directly south. You have found the town of cochrane. Hello. thats me.
> 
> ...


Well, an easier way to find it is to go to Google Maps and search for Cochrane, ON. Nice location. Presumably you get packages by pony express or stage coach a couple of times a month?

OK, kidding. I've been on several canoeing trips to Algonquin Park, and I love it up there, even with mosquitos the size of a small bird.

Here's my take, basically simplifying the input you've received so far.

1) As a general rule, everything between the wall socket and the rails should be from the same manufacturer (although boosters, reverse loop controllers and the like are interchangeable).

2) Decoders from any NMRA-compliant manufacturer are fair game. Look for features, warranty, and price. I have used decoders from Lenz, NCE, Digitrax, TCS, Bachmann, and MRC. I have had some problems with the last two (although in fairness, I haven't tried an MRC decoder in about 7 years, so they may have upped their game). Bachmann ones work ok, but they buzz, which bugs the heck out of me. This is why the manufacturers don't include decoders in their DCC sets. You also have a choice of sound or not. Personally, I don't like sound, so none of my locos have it.

3) As far as the connector you need, you're going about it bass ackwards. Pop the shell on the loco and look at it. What kind of a connector is in there -- 8 pin, 9 pin, 21 pin, or nothing? You need a decoder with the same connector (obviously, if it's an old loco with no connector, then you'll need to wire everything yourself, and maybe isolate the motor as well). I confess, I don't like wiring much; if a loco doesn't have a connector, it take it to the local hobby shop, and they will install it for $10 plus the price of the decoder. I know you don't have a hobby shop, but there are places that will do it by mail order. More and more, locos are being sold as DCC-Ready, with the motor already isolated and a plug pre-wired, but sometimes you have to put in a resistor for the lighting.

4) Do you need a wiring harness, and how long? Depends on how far from the plug you need to mount your decoder. I've used everything from a hard plug to a 3" harness (decoder at one end of the shell, plug at the other).

Hope that helps.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

> Thank you dave. That give me more perspective.
> How large is your lay out?


4x8 HO
2 main ovals, 1 spur inside, 4 sidings off the spur. Junction between inner and outer oval. I have 3 power connections to each oval and 2 to the spur. It's Atlas sectional track and snap switches. No soldering of joints. Have no problems.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Cycleops said:


> ...
> 
> I would call mesenteria to account for saying most decoders are rated at 1.5-2amps, most, in my experience are rated at 1-1.2amp but that shouldn't bother you unless you are running older motors and you can always do a stall test...


It could be that some/most/all non-sound decoders are rated that low (and I should have mentioned this), but the QSI Titan, as an example of a sound decoder is rated slightly higher than 2 amps.

http://store.actionhobbieskingsville.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=QSITITANA

The Soundtraxx Tsunami 1000 is rated at 1 amp:

http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/tsunami/

The Econami installed in Bachmann locomotives the past few years has a stall current at 2 amps:

http://www.traintekllc.com/soundtraxx-882002-econami-eco-200-sound-decoder-diesel/

The TCS Wow has a 2 amp "peak" for stall, so that's its max rating:

http://www.traintekllc.com/tcs-train-control-systems-1533-wow101-ka-diesel-sound-decoder/


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> Well, an easier way to find it is to go to Google Maps and search for Cochrane, ON. Nice location. Presumably you get packages by pony express or stage coach a couple of times a month?
> 
> Nope. dog sled. worst part of living up here is the neighbors reindeer keep crapping in my yard. That red nosed one in particular.
> 
> Thank you ctvalley. that fine tuned my thinking very well. thanks to all of you. eternally grateful for info given and of the info to come.


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Hi there ExONR,

Just wanted to let you know, i feel your pain living in an area with no shops, clubs, fellow enthusiasts etc for hours in any direction. I'm not so far north, just a little NE of Algonquin park, but i might as well be in Cochrane. Haven't been around here long but the crew here is definitely as you say, an invaluable resource. Thanks for putting up with us newbies guys!

Anyway, just wanted to toss out my opinion on DCC starter kits. I've had an NCE power cab for a couple of weeks now and it is great. Super easy to install program and use. You wont be disappointed. I've also wired in a couple of digitrax auto reversers now too, also easy as long as you have the proper wiring tools and can read the simple instructions. No experience with decoders however, both of my locos came with them installed. Happy modelling!


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

dialed in! my new chum! at least we in the same province. if you dont mind can i ask where you are?


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## dialed in (Jan 20, 2017)

Hey there! I live in a little farm community not far from Petawawa; not quite the great white north like you, but limited in model train resources all the same! What are you modelling, and how long have you been at it?


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

Petawawa? been trough there often enough if memory serves me correctly. I have ho scale, and i'm a newbie, definitly not afraid to show it either. lol


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I served as the Base Military Psychologist at Pet for just over four years. Left there to go to NDHQ in Ottawa in 2003.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

hi again guys. so im just snooping around looking at different dcc stuff on evil bay. digitrax. 
Are the table controls interchangeable with the hand held type?
What is A signal decoder or aculite break out boards? should these not be built in already?
Auto reverser? again not built in?
inferred receiver?

I was happy,before i started snooping more, why did i have to snoop more?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

You were probably that kid that ruined his own Christmas snooping around the
house for hidden presents.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The acculite breakout boards make it easier to connect up things like the PM42. Beats soldering to an edge connector which come with the PM42.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

PM42 huh? whats that? more research

so the aculite and pm are for larger layouts then?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The PM42 divides the rail signal into 4 separate signals, sort of like blocks. The separate sections have short circuit protection and can be set up as auto reversers. By dividing things up, a short in one area does not shut down the entire layout.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Do you have a decent reference book on DCC? I'd recommend that you get one.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

no i dont. which do you recommend? what book store is it available at?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

There is always the The Digitrax Big Book of DCC by John Palmer (1999, Paperback) used at half.com for $12.48. It's a little dated, but it still has about everything in it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

In DCC systems you often have a main
controller into which you can connect a hand
held controller. This can be wired or wireless.
Both the main and any hand held, and there can
be several, must be of the same make.

An Auto reverser is generally thought to
indicate a DCC reverse loop controller. A reverse
loop is any track design that permits a train
to go in one direction and come out in the
opposite direction on the same track. This
section must be isolated because the result
is an electrical short circuit. The automatic
reverser flips the phase (polarity) of the rails
overcoming that problem.

When a layout has 2 or more reverse loops,
as many displayed here on the forum do,
You can use a Digitrax PM42 to control
them. It can control 4 loops and thus
is less costly than buying individual
controllers.

There is another type of automatic reverser
that is often used for a streetcar display. The
device reverses the direction of the streetcar
when it gets to the end of the line and
sends it back to where it came from
and does it repeatedly. 

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Kalmbach Publishing (publisher of Model Railroader magazine) has a couple of good ones: DCC Made Easy (which is getting a little long in the tooth); the DCC Guide; and DCC Projects and Applications. I listed these in order of complexity. They are available at hobby shops and some bookstores, on Amazon.com, and direct from Kalmbach (www.kalmbachstore.com).

Another source you might try is the Mr. DCC University (www.mrdccu.com). This is the website of Bruce Petrarca, a recognized expert, and it's pretty easy to navigate around and find what all this stuff is. You can get as technical or simple as you want.


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## ExONRcarman (Feb 7, 2017)

Thanks now i know what to look for


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