# Need help planning and creating a HO scale layout



## Trainfan1

Hi everybody,
I am going to be planning and building my first Ho scale layout. My first question is should I use a 8x4 space or a 8x6 space? I know that if I use a 8x6 area I will probably need to make a space in the middle incase anything happens to the back of the layout, which would be against a wall. I want a more modern looking layout with some scenery, but not overloaded. I would appreciate any recommendations and help I can get. 
Thanks,
Mat.


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## DonR

The 8 X 6 will make possible those wider radius curves that you
need for the big locos and long cars. I wonder if the 'reach'
issue could be solved by cutting into the middle of the front side to a degree
where you can get to the farthest point.

Don


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## CTValleyRR

Even an 8x4 with the long edge against the wall will be unreachable in the middle. Can you make a "c" shape?

Normally, what I would do here is have you sketch your available space (to scale), and give us some thoughts on what kind of trains / rolling stock / locos you want to run, what industries you would like, andany significamt terrain features.


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## Trainfan1

I can make a C shape, my only concern is that if I do that there may not be enough room to turn. My only limits for shape is what am capable of building. The space I will be building has no obstructions, 3 walls on the sides of both, then open space. I want to try and run 2 passenger trains and maybe one freight, I want to make it more modern looking, with mixed commercial and residential and maybe a factory, kind of like Worcester Massachusetts, probably 2 tracks running parallel to eachother for the most part, I might make a tunnel, and I would have space under the table if I want to make a hidden part for parking or railing trains when not in use, I would like to make a small river & bridge but I am not sure if the that will happen. Also CTVALLEYRR I will definitely stop by your both if I am at the train show, I didn't feel like sending a pm if it was just that so that's why I didn't reply.


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## CTValleyRR

Trust me, if you have no space limitations, room to turn won't be a problem. What I need to know is how long the one wall is (the wall with a wall on either side of it), and how far out into the open space you're allowed to go. Since I assume you're living with someone, is he / she / they REALLY ok with you making a more or less permanent addition to that space. Let's confirm that before we make plans that are doomed to have a harsh collision with reality. I feel like playing around with Anyrail tonight, so if you can get me those dimensions (don' guess, measure), I'll throw something together.


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## Trainfan1

The exact dimensions with the trim are a little more than 7'10" by a little over 6. It is in my basement, it is finished but it can get moist, and it is right under a window, the window does not leak, but if it ever does I would like to be able to move the set, so I would like to make like 3 tables that I could ideally move it away. My family doesn't really care what I do as long as I don't destroy a wall or repaint it out of the paint scheme. I am allowed the space inside those boundaries, I can make a few screw holes in the wall if necessary.


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## CTValleyRR

OK, that's a little more limiting than I was envisioning, but not a disaster.

"My family doesn't really care what I do..." is famous last words. They don't care until they do. But that's your headache.

How you mount and fasten (or not) this layout will be up to you. Check back in about an hour.


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## Trainfan1

I guess I should have worded that better, they just don't want me messing up the walls because there are water pipes going through them, I do know how to find a stud so I'm not afraid of messing up anything like that, but I'm sure they won't be happy if I put a couple hundred screws in the wall. I do want something semi permanent, but can be moved if need be, so probably 3 separate tables that I could fasten together would be best, I can't mount anything to the floor really, but some mounts in the wall are ok. I do have some experience with anyrail, but it is only basic knowledge from when I designed a simple layout for my model railroading merit badge 2 or 3 years ago. I may not be on later because I have a midterm tommorow, but I will try and check back in the morning.


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## CTValleyRR

OK, so this is more about the space than it is about the track plan. I went with Atlas Code 83 sectional track, #6 turnouts, and 22" radius curves, because your looking for modern stuff, which tends to be on the long side. A good rule of thumb is to have your curves minimum radius at least twice the length of anything that will use them.

Because your space isn't that big, I'd use a couple of curved turnouts to make crossovers and add additional tracks, because with 6' to work with and your curves requiring almost 4 of that just to go around, you don't have much space to work between them. 

At the bottom, what I've drawn would be a removable section of track, bridging the gap. You could also do this as a moveable gate (vertical or horizontal), or fixed permanently with a duckunder.

This is a jpeg exported from Anyrail, a commercial model railroad design program that is well worth the $60 it costs. If you decide to purchase it, I will send you the file. Otherwise, you should be able to mock up the same thing in SCARM or similar freeware. You would place sidings and industries at the sides and across the back. Note that I limited it to a 30" reach (although the top right and left corners are a little over -- I would round them off with a backdrop if I were building this).


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## Trainfan1

I have the free trial of anyrail on my desktop, so I could use the file, I know at model train shows you see the bridges that go up and down to allow people to pass through, I too was thinking about making something like that but I did not know if I could work it out because I assumed it was complex and also I know you need a complete circut for the track to be powered, so I assumed it was a bad idea. Tomorrow I might be busy so I may not get much of anything done, but I have been looking for people selling their old collections around me, so I will be on the lookout for track.


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## CTValleyRR

The only problem with the free version of Anyrail is that you're limited to 50 pieces, and this already has 39, counting the extra 6" segment I left in there by accident, the ruler, and the outside wall. By using flex track, you could reduce the number of pieces, but then your materials list wouldn't be accurate.

You will probably want to build your layout on benchwork with legs, so it doesn't really need to be fastened to anything. You're young and agile, so a duckunder wouldn't be that rough for you, but us older folks avoid them. Bridges and gates are not that hard, and your track does not need to connect across the gap electrically -- just physically. Each rail is powered, but the circuit is made by the locomotive touching both rails. Many layouts are linear, with no loops at all, and they work just fine.

Don't worry about the speed. This is a journey of discovery, not a race. Come back when you feel like it. The point is to have fun, not stress yourself out.


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## DonR

I agree with CTvalley. A bridge is not that difficult, and tho you may be
young, doing a crawl under is very annoying. There is always one
more thing that you need, and to have to crawl under each time
gets old pretty quick. I have one. aaaargh!

If you end up with a plan that could be a bridge you can get
all kinds of help designing it. There are 3 basic methods. Raise
it UP, lower it, or remove it entirely. 

Don


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## Trainfan1

I will try out making a similar layout with scarm tommorow, I have access to lots of drafting software so I am going to try designing a table probably next week, then I will try and finalize the track plan, I find linear layouts boring, so if I can afford it I will probably make a loop. Also does anyone know of a track design software that I could make a multilevel design, and maybe has a 3d view?


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## Trainfan1

Got the baseboard planned out, and a general oval loop, but I keep getting stuck on adding a second line through switches. I found out how to do 3d rendering and 2 levels with scarm so that above question can be ignored. I will keep working and keep you guys posted
Edit: I was able to make a simple double track plan, I will be adding to it possibly, its not my dream design, but its a start, I attached a pic.






]







Edit 2:I made a new design, a bit better, but not great. If anyone has a cool plan less than 8x6 I would love to see it.


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## CTValleyRR

Do you mean adding a 3rd line? It looks to me like you already have 2. Use the turnout as you have it, and add some more. You can even have turnouts coming off of these turnouts.

You mentioned that you find linear layouts boring. I suspect you will find that just watching trains go around and around will get boring pretty quick, too. The more sidings you have, the more there will be for your trains to do. If you want a passenger station, put in the long straigtaway at the top. If you can find a platform to put between the tracks, so much the better.


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## Trainfan1

Never mind about all those questions, I seem to have got the hang of it. I tried some layouts with linear lines, loops, and tracks with 1, 2, or 3 mainlines, I got the hang of the switches and curves. I have some pics of the new layout and baseboard design I made, any recommendations?


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## DonR

That's a nice layout for continuous running, especially, since it is partly
single track main, if you plan on DCC.

However, it isn't long after watching trains run around the track that
one gets itchy for something else to do. Switching cars can be that something
else. You have a few what appear to be spur tracks where industries
could be located. But you also need a yard for car storage. If you find
this aspect appealing you might see what changes you can make
to build it in.

Don


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## CTValleyRR

You have some space to work with on the left. Stick in some more short straight segments on the top and bottom and slide the tracks closer to the left edge. You treat turnouts as a once and done, but you can get quite a bit more track in if you daisy chain a few. Take that center track on the left and see if you can't squeeze 3-4 tracks into the lower left by using consecutive turnouts to create something that resembles tree branches. Try replacing one of those straight segments in the lower right with another turnout and curve that one up the right side. Also, that stub track with the bumper next to the right edge of the bridge isn't long enough to achieve anything. Replace the turnout that leads to it with a curve.


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## jesteck

Trainfan1, you have come a very long way in a very short time. The few suggestions I have to your work in progress: make the bridge a double-track by joining the unusable spur on the lower right to the outer spur on the left, giving you a double track loop to play with. Take your road to nowhere back off the layout somewhere on the right instead of trapping it in the middle. Side roads and access roads off it are good, if justifiable. Don't forget about flex track; SCARM likes to work with a single manufacturer's sectional track and accessories. Use it as much as you want for basic design, but as you can see, the sectional track approach causes an obvious misalignment of the rerailers on the left if you want to use them as street crossings. Flex can fix that misalignment. Same with curves- sectional track curve pieces dictate your track placement if using the same radius throughout. This can create a lot of unusable or wasted space. Use the program for the general idea, make a printout, and woek out the detailed track plan from there on graph paper. Good luck!


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## Trainfan1

I made another new layout, this time with a better yard and different heights, it came out OK, I am bad with yards and also I am a bit skeptical with them because switches are a little expensive. While I haven't been working on the layout I built a New haven baggage car, a undecorated boxcar and tried making a station platform from cardboard. I attached some pictures of the layout, I am going to try and make the final layout have 2 or more levels because I think this one looked nice. I did make one of the grades 4% and the other one about 2%, so I know I will be told to make the 4% grade a 2% grade if I want to run longer trains. If anyone wants the layout design file show me something I could do that is hard to explain I can upload those too.


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## Trainfan1

I finally made what I think is a good plan. This new plan has a elevated passenger line and a freight line, a decent yard, and I have an idea of where I could put scenery. I attached a nice labeled picture, I do have some more work to do but I feel like this is getting closer to the final product. I have grades of about 2% to 2.4%, with the exception of a short 5.8 grade to get to switch level, but it should be short enough that the locomotive can power right through it. If anyone has anything that I should consider changing please inform, I may have to do some more work on the engine house area if I am going to get one to fit, but other than that I feel like I did a good job. I am rethinking the modern theme a bit now because of the high cost for modern structures and trains, I do have a near complete new haven passenger train that I will probably run, I will also probably be looking for an amtrak and a freight train, but I think my model will be based around the 70's, as the trains I will be running are from around then.


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## DonR

Looking good.

Any particular reason you used a single cross over
between your two ovals at the bottom? A double cross over 
would make moving from one to the other less
complex at times.

Don


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## Trainfan1

The reason I used a single crossover was because I felt like it would be a bad idea to elevate a switch.


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## Bwells

DonR mentioned a DOUBLE crossover and I agree. You will be able to do it before the incline or maybe even two single crossovers. Your going to need a big hole in the center for access. Looks good!


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## jesteck

Trainfan1 said:


> I have the free trial of anyrail on my desktop, so I could use the file, I know at model train shows you see the bridges that go up and down to allow people to pass through, I too was thinking about making something like that but I did not know if I could work it out because I assumed it was complex and also I know you need a complete circut for the track to be powered, so I assumed it was a bad idea. Tomorrow I might be busy so I may not get much of anything done, but I have been looking for people selling their old collections around me, so I will be on the lookout for track.


Trainfan, the biggest challenge with lift-ups and drop-downs isn't completing the circuit to power the track; that can be done easily enough with flexible (i.e., stranded) jumper wires on the hinged side. The bigger problem is creating a method of keeping the tracks perfectly aligned AFTER it has been raised or lowered. This is usually done with some type of "V" shaped guide for the rails on the stationary sides of the movable piece; and yes, both sides.


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## CTValleyRR

Elevating a switch isn't an issue, provided that you support it well. Having one that isn't in one plane with the surrounding track will cause you endless nightmares. It isn't obvious to me where your 5.8% grade is. Have you eliminated it? If not, do so immediately. It isn't a question of "powering through", but of physics. Part of your loco will be on the grade while part of it isn't. At the top, any sideways mothing will derail your locomotive as the front wheels come off the track. At the bottom, your locos will have a tendency to plow their noses into the grade before the front wheels begin to climb. And in the worst case, the belly of your loco will become stranded.

other than that, doesn't look bad. I'd recommend a double crossover, too. BTW, don't let the price of turnouts deter you from using them. Turnouts are what gives your locos something to do other than travel in a circle.


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## Trainfan1

Sorry about the time between and quality of my responses lately, I have been on mobile. I will try some modifications to the previous layout plan and post them up tomorrow if possible.


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## Trainfan1

This would probably be the hole I end up making in the layout, but I know I will not be able to reach the passenger yard, I could have the side with the passenger yard to the front, but that is the elevated side so it might look a bit silly. I have been busy lately, so my responses will probably be infrequent until Tuesday.


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## CTValleyRR

I don't think it would look silly, but even if it did, it would look even sillier with a derailed train in the passenger yard that you couldn't reach. You do what you have to do to make everything work out.

Don't worry about keeping a schedule or regular updates. This has to be fun, and if you start worrying about deadlines, or progressing at a certain rate, it will become not fun very quickly. I started my current (operational) layout in 2002 and haven't really finished it. I began work on my dream layout 18 months ago, then almost immediately put it on hold for a major redesign. It will be done when it gets done. Or not. But I won't stop having fun!


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## dasB&M2-6-0

Time MAY be more "friendly" if/when you're retired....(or NOT!!)
But I'm setting out the entire Winter JUST to build my 4X8 table and map my track plan(s)...There WILL be revisions!! I'm not even expecting to START laying actual bed/track 'til Spring.....!!
Lots of time to save $$ and collect parts to put it all together....SOMEDAY!!
Hobbies of ANY kind are meant for ENJOYMENT....NOT STRESS!!

May your freight ALWAYS roll smoothly....and ON TIME!!


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## Trainfan1

Hi all, I think I almost have my final plan, I am trying to find some good used or cheap track at the moment. I am thinking of making track layout on boards on the floor instead of building a table first then adding legs, that will allow me to plan the cutout a bit better. This is a bit off topic for this thread but one of my locomotives couplers is slanting down and sagging, making it decouple often, does anyone know why that might be. If I don't post until after Christmas Merry Christmas everyone!


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## dasB&M2-6-0

Trainfan1.....
The initial stages of my build will be done at floor-level -- table top assembly, and mapping out the track/bed plan...THEN I plan to add legs (4"X4"X48" pressure-treated w/adjustable leg levelers....!) and do the actual layout work at ~ chest height...
Thinking maybe the legs could be a BIT shorter, but I need some room UNDER the table to move around without ending up looking (and feeling...!) like a pretzel!!!
Good luck with your project!! Trains in my yard won't be rolling until Spring at the earliest...I'm taking the build in small "bites", as my budget allows on a fixed income....!

May your freight ALWAYS roll smoothly...and ON TIME!!


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## CTValleyRR

dasB&M2-6-0 said:


> Trainfan1.....
> The initial stages of my build will be done at floor-level -- table top assembly, and mapping out the track/bed plan...THEN I plan to add legs (4"X4"X48" pressure-treated w/adjustable leg levelers....!) and do the actual layout work at ~ chest height...
> Thinking maybe the legs could be a BIT shorter, but I need some room UNDER the table to move around without ending up looking (and feeling...!) like a pretzel!!!
> Good luck with your project!! Trains in my yard won't be rolling until Spring at the earliest...I'm taking the build in small "bites", as my budget allows on a fixed income....!
> 
> May your freight ALWAYS roll smoothly...and ON TIME!!


My knees are so creaky that this wouldn't work for me. I build the benchwork up, put the foundation on it, and lay track etc in a nearly upright position.

You are, of course, free to build in whatever way suits you, but 2x4 lumber is sufficient to hold up a house. It is way overkill for a model railroad. 4x4's are just way over the top, and extremely heavy as well. 2x2 is sufficient for legs, and has enough area to hold casters. Personally, mine are made of 1x2 lumber and 1x3 lumber fastened in an L shape, one leg every 4-ish feet. Pressure treated is also an unnecessary expense, unless this really is going int your back yard. Again, do what you want, I just don't want you to get into ipunneeded materials and expense because you're building much more than you need to.


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## CTValleyRR

Sagging couplers are a drag (pun intended). Check to make sure the mounting screw is fully tightened. Then, check to make sure that the coupler itself isn't broken or bent. If not, you will need to add some shims or washers inside the coupler mount to hold it steady. Do you have either a coupler height gauge or an NMRA Standards gauge? If not, and you intend to seriously pursue the hobby, pick up a standards gauge and use it to make sure the coupler is at the correct height.


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## DonR

Trainfan

About your sagging loco coupler. 

What make and model loco is it?

There may be a variety of methods to
correct the situation depending on
that information.

I have a Bachmann Spectrum GP30 that has
a sagging coupler on the rear. The unique
chassis design of this loco prevents
replacing the draft box. I have tried shims
but have decided that an offset coupler shank to
raise it will be the permanent solution.

Either or the above might resolve your
problem.

Don


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## Trainfan1

I ended up fixing the coupler, there was some glue on the mount that was preventing the cover to fit correctly. Over Christmas break I am going to try and go to a few different hobby shops to get some supplies and maybe order some stuff online. I also found some plaster cloth so I might try making a tunnel or some scenery. If anyone has any tricks to make things easier I would love to hear it, I had to make a sculpture with the stuff in my art class a few years ago and it did not come out great. I got a Lionel O scale maintenance kit, will that be any good for Ho scale or should I return it?


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## DonR

The Lionel maintenance kit will work fine for your HO tracks and
trains. It includes the items that you need to clean the
track aa well as lubricate your locos.

Don


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## Trainfan1

Should I use the multipurpose lubricant or the oil on the locomotives, I am going down to my local hobby shop tomorrow with my brother to return a kit he got, so we may buy some track so we can start the layout over break.


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## Trainfan1

I went to the hobby shop on Friday and everything they had was junk, so I have a 60 dollar credit that I can use when I figure out what I need. I found a fellow selling some train stuff around me so I am going to see if its any good. After looking around at the Scarm website I found a cool layout that I might build. It has tight turns but it is small enough where it wouldn't need to be on a table so I might build it on a board to slide under my bed or something. It was tracked with Piko so I had to convert everything but the switches to atlas flex. I am going to see if I can find those switches and then if I can go from there, I would do some restyling and maybe make it a mine or something, but I like the overall plan and size. I attached it and the original file in a zip so if anyone can help me out with replacing the switches with ones easy to find America that would be great.


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## jesteck

Trainfan, be sure of what you are looking at. PIKO is a German company that deals mainly with G-scale stuff, with some offerings in HO, N, and TT. Peco, on the other hand, is based in Great Britain, and has an extensive range of HO track and turnouts that are widely stocked by several U.S. distributors, both retail and online, including Walthers and most of the other names you see mentioned frequently in this forum. Their turnouts are 100% compatible with Atlas or any other flex track and are better designed and built than most others, especially Atlas snap switches- which I consider "toy train" grade in both appearance and operation. Personal opinion, of course, but based on experience. Best value for your hard-earned buck; I have some that are over 25 years old, have been relocated several times, and still perform flawlessly.


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## CTValleyRR

If you intend to stay in HO scale. Recognize that anything that can be put under a bed is very limiting, unless you have a double bed or larger which is unusually long and high. A 4x8 will not fit under the average bed.


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## Trainfan1

I'm not talking about a 4x8, im talking about a 5'9"x3'9". I think I may want to wait until spring to start a large layout, and this would give me a great opportunity to get familiar with flex, conventional track, switches, and scenery. Although it is limited it is in my budget, and scheduled. I am going to be very busy building a robot for the next 7 weeks, so starting a table layout may be a lot for now. A guy near me is selling a bunch of locomotives, cars, display cases. They are also all local lines, so I may have found myself my fleet for now. The only problem is that there are 10 gigantic boxes full, so it may be a hassle to store, and I may drop a pretty penny on all of it. I will keep you guys updated, I was also looking around at switches online, I found some replacements for the piko stuff, I may need to edit the layout a bit, but it seems to be OK. I think I am going in favor of remote switches, the manual and snaps seem to be more trouble that they are worth. I have 2 powerloc remote's and they are junk, they only respond 10% of the time, so I hope to avoid the problems with a good manufacturer.


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## Trainfan1

I have home doing research all day, I have decided in favor of DCC for the large layout when I do get to it, but when I make the tiny layout I will be limited to DC because I am not going to drop 80 dollars for a DCC controller for it. I read Regme's Reg Layout thread and learned about using DC for different speeds on different connected lines, so I will do that on the small layout. I also may just use sectional track instead of flex, or a combination. Using it for the entire layout will probably cost me a lot because I will definitely mess up a lot, so I may going to try converting it to sectional. I also am going to try and make a good yard. Also happy new year everyone!


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## CTValleyRR

It's a very good idea to make a small, "practice" layoit before embarking on something bigger andmore complicated.

Remember, though, that most of your stuff will not be "used up" by being used on your practice layout. Much of it, including track and powerpacks, will be reused. DCC won'tbe necessary for this small layout, but it won't be wasted either. It can be reused on your bigger layout.


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## DonR

Trainfan

That neighbor's old train may be just what you need to get your
feet wet. Likely it will be DC and include lots of track, turnouts
and power gear in addition to locos and cars.

I wouldn't buy anything until checking it out. But keep in mind,
the track could be brass, not a good thing, and likely the power
packs and locos would be DC. Many of those can be converted
with a decoder when you go DCC later.

If it was a large layout it likely would include flex track. That
would give you the opportunity to experiment with it. It it
by far the better way to build a layout.

Don


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## Trainfan1

I know I can reuse lots of stuff, I might blow my entire budget on locomotives and rolling stock, the guy I found selling his trains has 35 engines alone, all almost brand new, and 6 gigantic boxes of rolling stock, then some odds and ends. I am going to figure out if they have dcc equipped, and prioritize buying those, and some rolling stock. I will buy the track for the small layout at my local hobby shop with the 60 dollar credit. I will start as soon as I get the board.


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## Trainfan1

It looks like I am getting some B&M, Guilford, MEC and maybe NS locomotives and freight, effectively replacing my current stock, which is probably a good thing, none are DCC equipped but they are all easy to install DCC on. I have not started my layout yet as I don't have the board, I am waiting for my grandfather to get a big enough spare piece from his job as a contractor to use, saving me a few bucks to spend on tracks or scenery. I don't see me having much time to work on the layout for at least the next 5 weeks, I was busy all day over both days on the weekend, and that is what my next 5 weeks look like, so I will be limited to 2 days a week after school to work on it, so it will not be finished any time soon. I will update you guys when I get the new locomotives and rolling stock.


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