# Whistle probelems with my 1937 Lionel 616 Flying Yankee



## Cfergu22 (Dec 4, 2012)

The whistle is in the engine car, I have a Lionel no.60 whistle controller. 

The whistle blows if I take the train off the tracks and touch a wire to the wheel and a wire to the electric pickups on the bottom of the motor. It will not blow when the car is on the tracks whether e car is moving or not. 

I've tried to clean the whistle motor and brushes multiple times. I'm new to trains as I just received this train from my grandfather a few weeks ago. I had to work pretty hard with the e unit to get the train to function properly and everything's now working good except the whistle.

Any ideas? If there's any other information that anyone would find helpful to solve this problem let me know and I'll provide it. 

Thank you very much


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

I am no expert but try swiching the wires to the track. The power is AC but thesound isstarted by a DC signal on the track. It has to be the correct polarity. Don


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## Cfergu22 (Dec 4, 2012)

Just tried it, no luck


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

When you get the whistle running with the loco off the tracks (presumably in your hands), is the loco upright, or tilted on its side?

The relay in the whistle that turns the whistle on/off is gravity-dependent. It's operated by a DC voltage that's superimposed into the normal AC power track. If the relay isn't working, the whistle won't turn on. However, if you tilt the loco on its side, that may be enough to pivot the relay into "on" position, allowing normal track AC power to run the whistle motor itself.

Initial thinking, anyway.

How about some pics?

TJ


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## Cfergu22 (Dec 4, 2012)

You're right. I held the train upright and the whistle didnt work when I touched the wires to it. I'll try to take some pictures or a video tomorrow. I guess I just have to try to fix that relay. 

Is there a web site that has a diagram of the whistle wiring?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Well ... yes ... and no ...

The Olsens site had a fantastic online Lionel tech / service library. But they've been down / offline since hurricane Sandy, and speculation that the family might not be so enthused to get things back up and running.

T-Man sketched his own diagram, here ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=31599&postcount=13

Chances are, the little relay plate simply needs to be cleaned, have its pivot lubricated, etc.

Or ... it's possible that your controller is not kicking out sufficient (or enough) DC voltage to power the relay solenoid that electro-magnetically lifts the relay plate. 

Get some pics, and we can coach you through some debug options.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Olsen's claims they'll be back up at some point, hopefully that will be soon.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The relay may need adjustment. Can't help you there. CTT had an article on it. I plan on replacing one with new electronics in the future.

You whistle controller is old try an updated version.


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## Cfergu22 (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm still working on the pictures, I'm doing this all on my phone and I can't figure out how to attach them to my post.

But this is what I've uncovered since yesterday.

On the whistle there a solenoid that has a metal plate on the bottom of it. When that metal plate is drawn up towards the solenoid by pressing the button on the whistle controller it makes the whistle blow. 

The problem with mine is that when the motor is upright the solenoid won't pull up that plate. Once you tilt it past about 45 degrees the plate will be pulled up and the whistle blows. There doesn't seem to be anything that needs cleared and I don't see anything that needs lubrication.

I don't really know where to go from here. I'll see if I can make a video of it and put it on YouTube.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if you can't clean otherwise fix the horn relay, you may need a replacement for it.

Have you tried this locomotive with more than one transformer?


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## Cfergu22 (Dec 4, 2012)

No, I don't have another transformer or whistle controller. 

I might try to just mount the whistle on it's side in the car, then I can just ground it with a wire.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

As an experiment, try putting about 1.5V DC to the whistle ... you can use a D battery. See if that lifts the relay plate up.

I forget off the top of my head if the polarity of the DC is important here. Try it both ways, but there may be only one way that works. John, T-Man, etc. ... help me out here ...

(I'm trying to narrow down the problem ... either your relay solenoid isn't working, or the controller is not putting out proper DC voltage. Hence, force-feed DC to the relay and see what happens.)

Make sure the plate pivots freely ... no gunk in pivot points.

Regards,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The whistle relay will work with either polarity.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks. (True for postwar stuff, but not modern stuff, right? I thought more modern whistles are +DC sensitive?)

I know we've had this conversation before ... just one of those things that can't quite get drilled into my head ... :retard:

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Modern electronic whistles are indeed polarity sensitive, but the old mechanical whistle relay just uses the reluctance of a copper disk to be able to detect DC on the track. It doesn't care which polarity the DC offset is.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ...but the old mechanical whistle relay just uses the reluctance of a copper disk to be able to detect DC on the track.


So the relay solenoid is something other than a simple electromagnet / solenoid? It must differ from an e-unit solenoid, I guess, but how, specifically???

(My EE brain synapses are lacking here! :retard: ) 

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There is a copper core that changes the characteristics so that AC doesn't activate it. I used to have a good description of how it works, but I can't find it now.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Oh ... copper core ... interesting. I didn't know that ...

I always wondered what made an e-unit solenoid and a whistle relay solenoid different.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The copper core blocks the AC magnetic field from the armature, but the DC isn't affected by the copper core, so it attracts the armature. The reason for the two-stage transformer switch was to generate enough magnetic force to pick the relay, then drop the DC component with the parallel resistor to just hold the relay. If you apply too much DC offset to the whistle relay, it'll overheat.

No DC, not magnetic attraction.  The copper washers act like a transformer and don't allow the magnetic field to escape to the armature. That's also why too much DC will overheat it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks!

Very clever guys at the Lionel think tank, way back when ... !!!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I am not familiar with the no. 60 whistle controller. However, you problem sounds like a problem with the controller and not the whistle relay. The post war transformers like the 1033, KW, and ZW have two positions for the whistle controller. The first position puts a few volts of DC on the rails, and the second position reduces the DC to less than a volt and increases the AC level to power both the loco and the whistle motor. The low voltage in the second position will hold the relay in but will not pick up the armature if the relay is open. You can check this with a meter (Harbor Freight $8). While you have the tender open, lube the motor using 5W-20/30 motor oil. There are two bearings on the motor, one on each end of the armature.


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## Crazeejay (Jan 11, 2021)

Cfergu22 said:


> The whistle is in the engine car, I have a Lionel no.60 whistle controller. The whistle blows if I take the train off the tracks and touch a wire to the wheel and a wire to the electric pickups on the bottom of the motor. It will not blow when the car is on the tracks whether e car is moving or not. I've tried to clean the whistle motor and brushes multiple times. I'm new to trains as I just received this train from my grandfather a few weeks ago. I had to work pretty hard with the e unit to get the train to function properly and everything's now working good except the whistle. Any ideas? If there's any other information that anyone would find helpful to solve this problem let me know and I'll provide it. Thank you very much


 I can use the wiring diagram for the whistle to the motor to have something to look at to make sure everything is hooked up correctly


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Crazeejay said:


> I can use the wiring diagram for the whistle to the motor to have something to look at to make sure everything is hooked up correctly


This is a really old thread, some may not be here anymore.
Give your other thread a chance someone should chime in shortly.

Your other thread.








Lionel Flying Yankee


Hey everyone I’m trying to find a running engine for my Flying Yankee any ideas




www.modeltrainforum.com


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll close this one to encourage participation in the current thread.


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