# All Aboard!!! Welcome to Knollwood!



## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Hello all of my Forum Friends!

The time has finally come! My wife and I moved into our "Forever Home" and I have a dedicated train room. I have had some temporary layouts before, but this will be my first permanent layout. 
This thread will fill many purposes. 
1. It will be a way for me to think out loud about ideas and projects along the way.
2. It will be a way for me to track my progress along the way.
3. The most important, I will need your help through expertise and/or opinions!

This will be a journey, a long journey! I will be depending on all of you to chime in, and I will do my best to update my progress with pictures 

Mark


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

My dedicated Train Room is a finished room in the basement. The ceilings 8.5' tall and the room is about 12' x 13'. I don't think my layout will be as large as I wanted it to originally be. the problem is the electrical panel is in the room, and I don't really want to block it. Also, I have to allow the doors to open and I need a walkway through the room.
I have attached a sketch of the room to give you some sort of idea of what I am working with.
Also, I am thinking about paint. The walls are already sky blue, which is nice. I have been thinking about painting the ceiling a flat black. 
What do you think? 
Has anyone on here done that?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Now I know where you're been! Good luck with the house! I'm not crazy about the black ceiling idea, it might be great but I was thinking how about extending the sky blue onto the celling and painting clouds. It would make the room look much bigger and you definitely have the height! Also in addition to the table how about an around the room track too? Might as well go big! And it will give you additional layout space. The sant fe would look nice cruising around the room going through a mountain backdrop. Add some tunnles for depth. Hell , the hellgate bridge would look good up in the air too!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for the 1st response! 
Hopefully people that have black ceilings will chime in. I originally wasn't crazy about the idea, but from what I have heard, it is something to look into. 
When you say, around the room, do you mean up top near the ceiling? It would have to go above the door frames.
As far as the bridge, there will definitely be a Hellgate Bridge somewhere on the layout!
:smilie_daumenpos:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea I was thinking around the ceiling over the doors. Bump it out in front of the electrical panel. You can then have it go down a slope and up again over the layout. You could widen it at that point to add some mountains, tunnels, or lights and houses. Whatever you want. Or make it yard to store some trains. Wide enough where you have space for three tracks and a running loop. Just aome ideas. Might be cool and add to the whole train room experience. Who am I kidding, more trains , more fun.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I remember a cousin who painted his whole room black, back in the hippie days.
He added fluorescent stars with fishnet hanging from the ceiling and fluorescent posters on the wall, the only lights he had were black lights. It looked good back in the hippie days. Jimi Hendrix would have loved it. 

I wouldn't paint them black, since your in a basement it will only add to the darkness.
Unless you have a whole bunch of lights. Then it might work.

If you want to paint it darker just go a few darker shades of the blue that you have on the walls.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

What scale are you going to do?
Your standard gauge?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ed! Good to hear from you!
Nothing wrong with a little Jimi...
I am going to do a mix of O gauge and standard gauge. Point taken with the black ceiling.... Maybe I can try a dark fabric as a temporary trial run.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

When ed says cousin, he actually means himself!


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## golfermd (Apr 19, 2013)

Man, I am in your shoes. I am moving in with my partner in her new house in a few weeks and she has given me a large part of her basement for my layout. Still have some negotiation about size and location. But it's nice to have the space to have one now.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So, maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but don't do a black ceiling. We did it in one of my son's rooms, because he loved astronomy and wanted to project stars on the ceiling. Believe me when I say that it has the immediate effect of making the whole area appear dark and gloomy. Furthermore, it tricks thr eye into believing that the ceiling is much lower, inducing a claustrophobic atmosphere. Our black ceiling lasted about 6 months, and required primer and 3 coats of paint to restore to a reasonable shade. Similarly, avoid Navy blue or any other dark color.

Now, on the rest of your layout, are BOTH doors entrance doors, or is one a closet? If a closet, you could remove the door and create layout space. If an access door, you could permanently block one (unless it is the only access to another area of your house, like a workshop or utility room).

Otherwise, though, the two broad walkways are really robbing you of layout space. If you don't want to block doors (and you certainly can't block your breaker box), consider some meandering aisles and use the duckunder / liftout to access the doors and breaker box to get to them, rather than to the center of your layout. If the breaker box isn't floor to ceiling, you could have a narrow shelf under it and still be able to reach in.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

CTV,
Thanks for the informative post!
I really wanted to hear from someone that actually tried the black ceiling thing.
Thank you for that!
The door that is across from the electrical panel leads to the main family room in the basement. The other door leads into an unfinished part that has the HVAC/storage/train repair center. 
Part of me wants to expand out as much as I can, but then the practical side of me looks at it this way:
My wife and I just moved into our forever house. We want to start having kids soon. I want to make life as easy as possible and blocking doors and having to crawl under a table to flip a breaker (or worse yet, my wife) isn't ideal.
Rarely does someone say my layout is big enough. So no matter how much I cram into one space, I wonder if I will be more satisfied than if I have a smaller layout, but easy access to move around.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hellgate:

I understand about kids and other things -- for the first few years, that will be a hobby-killer. I know all about that, too. 

So, I sketched this up before I read your last post, but it's purpose is to stimulate some curvy, rather than square, thinking. I was thinking that you might want to walk into your layout from your family room (fortunately, I seem to have guessed right on where your main entrance was). It does leave you with a duckunder to access the electric panel and the utility room, but I wasn't too worried because you had one in your original sketch. For me, I go to the layout far more often than I do the utility room or my breaker box. BTW, your breaker box is huge... is all of that space really in use?

So have a look at this rendering (it's an Anyrail file, so if you have that program or want to buy it, I can send you the file). I tried to keep all the reaches at under 24" from some point in the aisles, but there are a couple of longer ones, although nothing which is unattainable. The gap in the lower right is small, but my guess was that you could open the door to gain space to stand. You could also widen the layout area in the upper right a little bit without causing a huge reach.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

WOW! That is interesting! My mind doesn't think in that creative kind of way. That is why I love this forum!
I will take a picture of the room and post when I get home tonight. The electrical panel is in a recessed part of the room. ( I am assuming the panel was first, the finished basement was second.) There is one of the folding closet like doors that covers it.

I do have the full version of AnyRail. My only and biggest gripe with Any Rail is they do not have Standard Gauge. they have Disney's Monorail (Which I have  ) but they do not have good old Standard Gauge. Baffles me


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hellgate said:


> WOW! That is interesting! My mind doesn't think in that creative kind of way. That is why I love this forum!
> I will take a picture of the room and post when I get home tonight. The electrical panel is in a recessed part of the room. ( I am assuming the panel was first, the finished basement was second.) There is one of the folding closet like doors that covers it.
> 
> I do have the full version of AnyRail. My only and biggest gripe with Any Rail is they do not have Standard Gauge. they have Disney's Monorail (Which I have  ) but they do not have good old Standard Gauge. Baffles me


Send them an e-mail and ask for it. I asked for LEGO track, and now it's there. I'm sure I wasn't the only one requesting it, but still.

For the breaker box, I allowed enough room to open a door that has two halves that meet in the middle (like mine). An accordion door may allow you a little more space.

PM me if you want the Anyrail file. You can tweak it and send it back if you want. I love playing with creative layout ideas in Anyrail.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I sent them a request about 2 years ago. I inquire every now and then, but still nothing.
I think I am going to switch over to RR-Track. They not only have Std Gauge, but that have all the accessories and even Plasticville houses!
The downside is that it costs $139.
I wish I could sell my Anyrail Account to someone because I will probably never use it again if I buy RR-Track. However I am told I am not allowed hwell:


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Here are 2 pics of the new train room


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hellgate said:


> I sent them a request about 2 years ago. I inquire every now and then, but still nothing.
> I think I am going to switch over to RR-Track. They not only have Std Gauge, but that have all the accessories and even Plasticville houses!
> The downside is that it costs $139.
> I wish I could sell my Anyrail Account to someone because I will probably never use it again if I buy RR-Track. However I am told I am not allowed hwell:


Yeah, generally when you buy a piece of software, you're stuck with it.The lack of structures in Anyrail does't bother me. Mostly because if I need it, there is usually some downloadable content that you can get for free. Or you can just draw a rectangle of the appropriate dimensions. I guess if what you want to do with the software is to create layout pictures like you see in the magazines, than Anyrail would have limitations. I use it for designing layouts, and ensuring that I'm not fudging when I do it.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance here, but I don't understand the reference to "standard", beyond the obvious prototypical one, of course. Anyrail is otherwise so comprehensive in it's track libraries, it's odd that they'd leave anything on the table like that.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So in these photos, am I looking at the "top" wall, and the "bottom" wall, as the drawing is oriented?
It also looks like I see some benchwork from a previous layout there.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I have been in touch with David from Anyrail.
He said the problem is that they are oversees and Lionel is completely unknown to them.
Standard Gauge was the size that Lionel First came out with in 1906 until 1933. There are much larger than their O counterparts.
Over the past 25 years, Lionel and MTH have brought back STD Gauge into the train world.

Here is some more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Gauge_(toy_trains)

As far as the pics go, you are correct. The 1st pic is showing the top wall with the breaker box.
The 2nd pic was taken inside the breaker box to show the 2 doors.

There are 2 different piles of wood. The one is from my old layout in my old house.
The other neater pile is Mianne Benchwork that I bought off of Craigslist.
That is what I will be using to construct the new layout. It is really good stuff!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Excellent! I learned something today! I guess that means I can go home, now!

The issue with Anyrail is probably that they don't have a reference (either a catalog or a full set of track to use to build a reference for their software. Probably due to age, more than anything. I don't buy the "we're overseas" excuse, -- they have lots of stuff from US manufacturers.

I have heard good things about the prefab benchwork companies. Since one of my other hobbies is woodworking, I enjoy the challenge of building benchwork, so it's not something I would ever buy. But I can understand how someone without good carpentry skills and tools would like it. I'm glad you found it on Craigslist, though, because it appears to be fairly pricey.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Alright,
I have been thinking about my original drawing for the layout and the one that CTValleyRR (what's your name?) drew up for me.

I liked the fluidity of CTV's layout, but I didn't like not having easy access to move around the room. Also, I wanted a space on the wall where I could put up shelving for my spare trains that were not currently on the layout.

So this sketch is kind of like a hybrid between the 2 sketches.

What do you think?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Just a thought.

You don't really need the electric box in a closet? Rip out the box closet?
And the box is high enough that you can add something like a 2 foot section underneath it to run the trains by.
You still would have plenty of room to work in the box and you wouldn't be blocking it.

Saw this in e bay, it has been relisted, asking too much?
Standard gauge this is the first one I have seen. I was thinking about offering him less, to add to my collection. But the more I thought about it the less I needed it.
Though you might be interested even though it needs some TLC.

Have you seen these come up before, I never did, rare?
LIONEL PRE WAR STANDARD GAUGE STREET LIGHT WITH RINGING BELL
http://www.ebay.com/itm/32149455420...l?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=321494554203&_rdc=1


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ed,
Interesting piece. It was made by the The Gong Bell Manafacturing Company.
Not a Lionel piece though
This one sold for $80
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5858142

I hear what you are saying. I could remove the "closet"
However I am a very grateful Husband that his Wife allowed him to have a room for his trains.
I am not going to push my luck by destroying a perfectly good breaker panel closet. 
Big Ed, you get to hide inside the forum...... I share a bed with her..... well that is if I don't take a sledge hammer to our new house :smokin:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hellgate said:


> Ed,
> Interesting piece. It was made by the The Gong Bell Manafacturing Company.
> Not a Lionel piece though
> This one sold for $80
> ...


That explains why I never saw one before.

You could rip the bottom half out, make it a half closet then run some trains underneath it.
I don't see why a closet for the box is needed. It is just there for the aesthetics. Rip the closet down and make a nice Oak door panel for it instead. 

I hide in the forum???
Anything I say here I would tell "her". I am not wussy whipped. I am THE KING OF MY DUNGEON and garage & den. She has been awarded the rest, and I also gave her a generous share of the basement for her laundry room and to store some of her junk. 
But like I said it was only a thought. 
It would give you more running room?

All you need is a buzz all saw, no need to hammer.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

You're absolutely right!
When I get home I'm gonna set things straight!
Down with the closet!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You have a cot down there right?
You can get a good nights sleep then.

A half closet would work? Top half.
You can't really store anything in it.

Or else you could get the hammer out and punch out a portal hole on each side and run the trains through the closet. Get some nice portals and it wouldn't look bad?
Make it double portals, run 2 lines through it?

Just another thought.

That is all the thoughts your going to get from me tonight.
Got to get some ZZZzzzz's now, if I "dream' of anything else I will pass it on to you.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Hellgate said:


> Alright,
> I have been thinking about my original drawing for the layout and the one that CTValleyRR (what's your name?) drew up for me.
> 
> I liked the fluidity of CTV's layout, but I didn't like not having easy access to move around the room. Also, I wanted a space on the wall where I could put up shelving for my spare trains that were not currently on the layout.
> ...


Well, I was trying to maximize the amount of space you have for your layout, especially since you're in O, you need all you can get.

Keep in mind that you don't need my approval. I'm just trying to help. The only person's approval you really need is SWMBO.

I understand the desire to be able to walk around. I hate duckunders myself. In place of a liftout, I would consider a gate or bridge. While harder to make, you always know where it is and where it goes. I would rethink your walkway to the breaker box. How often do you go there? I only need to get to mine about once every 3-4 months, so I have no problem making it harder to access. The wall at the bottom could then be used for your shelving. Although if you use Dcc and some staging, locos not in use can rest on the layout, in staging.

And my given name is Ben, although I'm often called other things, many of them not flattering!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

I had a Eureka moment today!
I want 2 things:
1. A walkway so I can move around
2. Maximum train space
Solution... Hinges!
I can have a 2-2.5 foot wide table top that hinges down. I would of course have to secure whatever I put on those sections and doing it would require more work, but I will have the best of both worlds.
When I am running trains, I have the panels up. When I need the walkway to get to a part on the layout or to the panel, I fold them down.
What do you think?

Oh and nice to meet you Ben! The main reason for me posting this thread on this forum is to be challenged with ideas..... So I appreciate all of it!


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

I'm with Ed--lose the closet! It will require a little drywall repair and paint but it will really add to you space.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Can't tell dimensions on your table drawing, but the inner
walkway does look suspiciously narrow. I made the mistake
of pushing to get too much trackage in a small space and
ended up with one walkway a foot and a few inches wide. I'm not a big
guy but, even so, my shirts brush against buildings and
scenery by it. And I can't turn around in it. Give yourself
ample space.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So, the concept of a hinged gate or folding panel is a good one. You just need to be aware that everything you place on these must be securely fastened down, lest gravity do its thing and ruin your hard work.

Obviously, you need to figure out a support / latching mechanism (folding leg, folding brace, etc.) as well as an interlock to make sure you don't accidentally run a train off the edge of the world.

You could monkey with the closet for the electrical panel, but in my opinion, the real space robber isn't the panel itself, but the clear walkway to get up to it.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice so far!
As I mentioned before, I am using used Mianne Benchwork.
I had some spare time last night so I started to put some together to see how everything would work. It was getting late, so I had to call it quits, but I have attached some pics on the progress.
I have also attached the Mianne paperwork on the benchwork I bought.
Suprisingly, If I mirror-imaged the plans, it is similar to how I planned it.
Pics of the progress



















Mianne Plans










Mirror-imaged


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

It has been a while since I posted an update so here we go!
I went to York and came back with some much needed Mianne benchwork.
Below is what my benchwork currently looks like. ( Hard to take an overall pic)

















I have come to some hard truths. 
The space that I am using for my layout is not as large as I would like it to be.
This means that I have to set my priorities and focus on building a layout that speaks to that.
My Priorities:
To be able to run Standard and O Gauges
To have O-72 curves, so I dont have to worry about restrictions as much
To involve as many accessories as possible

The one thing I don't need is realistic train operations.

My favorite part of the hobby is to tinker in my repair room. 
The layout will be a place to run my trains, but my focus will be on building a layout (Scenery, mountains, towns etc.) and not so much on the track layout.
I hope that makes some sense.

Anyways I have been messing around with RR Track. I really like this software in designing a layout. This is what I have come up with so far.
1st Level









2nd Level









The inner black colored track on the 1st floor is Std Gauge.
On the 2nd level to the left, that oval is O-27
The rest is Fastrack O

As always, suggestions and comments are much appreciated! :thumbsup:
Thanks!
Mark


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Your two levels don't connect, right?

My only comment is that some of your track on the upper level is going to be perilously close to the edge of your benchwork.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I looked at it yesterday for a bit, I understand your layout,( I'm all for that) but I was trying to get a little action in somewhere. What if the standard gauge was the second level, you could make 2 loops on the bottom with switches so you could go from outer to inner track? Just an idea! I'm still thinking on it!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

My problem with the std gauge up top is the radius is about 43 inches.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Ct I will probably put a guardrail up


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I see, extensions?! I'm still thinking, it might take a while!


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Haha no worries! I appreciate the help! I am trying to avoid the 2nd level to overshadow the 1st


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I like the woodwork, looks like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. 

That must be costly?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

It is when you buy it from mianne. Good deals on the secondary market if you have patience though


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yes I just found this,
http://www.miannebenchwork.com/atr_kits.htm

Though it is convenient, it takes away the planning part and cutting all the wood.
Just put her together.
How are the instructions? I guess it came with instructions?


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

You are right it does take the fun away by not cutting things. But there isn't really instructions when you buy it on the secondary market. It's like a bunch of legos without direction. Fun in its own right


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well it does look nice and neat.:thumbsup:

I am trying to imagine what it will look like when all together.
I guess it is a duck under?
No way to make a lift out or lift up section, huh?

Don't you have a larger room?
Make it in the living room and make that room the living room. 
Or make it in the bedroom and make that the bedroom? 

Hurry up I want to see some big trains running. :thumbsup:


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