# Lionel 255E lights up, doesn't run



## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I finally got everything I thought I needed to get my old 255E going but have a problem. I purchased used O gauge track and a used 1033 transformer. I hooked it up to U/A with 22 ga. wire, and turned it on, nothing happened. I decided to clean up two straight pieces of track with steel wool, hooked it up with the engine only on those two tracks, the light under the engine came on when I turned the lever all the way but the engine only humms, then I tried the tender whistle, same thing, only humms.

Can anyong tell me what to do from here or am I doing something wrong? Any tests or breakers I should know about. Also, there is a slide lever on top of the 255E, what position should that be in? As a beginner, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You could be in neutral. Move the lever and try again. you want to hear the e unit operate and turn the drum. You may have to remove the shell. Normally you do all the tests before a teack run. WHich are have the motor run and the e unit cycles by spiining the drum. Two leads from a transformer does the trick.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

hudson said:


> I decided to clean up two straight pieces of track with steel wool, hooked it up with the engine only on those two tracks


As a rule, steel wool is a last resort to clean with. Those metal fibers can and do get picked up by magnetic train parts with potential bad results. I'd use only green or white scotch-brite pads, they work just as well and are much safer around trains.

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

NO STEEL WOOL! Carl is right, very bad thing to use anywhere close to your trains!


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Okay on the steel wool, won't use it anymore. As far as testing can you give me a better idea on how exactly to do that or where I can find instructions? Also, do you think that the 22 ga. wire is not allowing enough current through? 

Thanks again,

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hudson said:


> Okay on the steel wool, won't use it anymore. As far as testing can you give me a better idea on how exactly to do that or where I can find instructions? Also, do you think that the 22 ga. wire is not allowing enough current through?
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Nick


Did you work the lever back and forth with power applied?

14 gauge wire won't hurt if you want to try.

Look up in the gears real well make sure one tooth is not missing and make sure nothing is making it jam, 
like steel wool or something.:thumbsdown:

try cleaning the wheels and rollers, rubbing alcohol (Isopropanol 99%) will work, with cotton swabs/ Q tips.

If you never had it apart it probably needs some lube and brush cleaning.

Are you sure the transformer is putting out full power and the wires are hooked right?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

It could be a simple short in the motor wiring.

Any chance you can remove the motor from the shell, and post some pics?

Do the wheels spin freely in your hand?

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It could be nothing more than grease turned to concrete. As TJ says, do the wheels turn freely? Did you lube the engine? and the whistle?


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm going to get some heavier wire today and try some of your tips if I can figure them out. I'll let you know what happens. I never took a motor from the shell. I have two of these engines and they are both doing the same thing.

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Are you sure you have the wires hooked right from the 1033 to the tracks?
I never had a 1033 but the wires hookup different.
This I found....copy and paste,
The 1033/1034 is kind of an odd duck. It wires in reverse of the more common transformers. The U is the center rail and A is the Outside rail. 
From this thread, 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=12608&highlight=lionel+1033

You still can get a heavier hookup wire. I use 14 gauge.
22 is fine for most accessories.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have a multimeter tester?

Something like this?









And do you know how to use one?
There are videos on using them if you need one.

A used transformer? Maybe it needs some work?

You say you have 2 trains that do the same thing?
Are they both the same engine?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Light is coming on so thats good. Can you turn the wheels by hand? Make sure the wheels turn smoothly as the side rods sometimes jam and prevent turning. Your e unit could be stuck in neutral. Flip the e-unit control lever back and forth. There should be a 'buzz' sound in one position. If thats not it you'll have to remove the engine from the shell to troubleshoot I'm afraid.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Here's where I am. First, I do have a votage tester but it's not a home so I'll have to go get it.

I put the 14 ga. wire on, A to the outside, it really brightened up the lights, before only the headlight on one would turn on now both the headlight and the undercarriage light turn on however, the engines still only humm, but humm louder. I oiled everything on both engines that I could see moving, they are both identical 255E engines, one I got as a gift from the original owner that had not used it in 50 years, the other I purchased on e-bay and it was supposedly tested. The wheels do turn freely on both of them. Here's another strange thing that happened. As mentioned before I cleaned one section of straight track to see if it would work on just that track and it only turns on the lights, I tried putting the track back in the circle to make a complete track circle and then tried the power and the lights WOULD NOT come on, took the straight track from the circle and tried it alone again and the lights CAME ON. Since the same thing happens with two identical engines, do you think it could be not enough power from the transformer? I would attempt to take the engines apart if someone could tell me if it's only the screws that need to be taken off or is there more to it than that?

If it seem like I dont know what I'm talking about, I don't. I'm going to go to my other place a see if I can find my voltage tester now, I hope to see a couple more suggestions when I get back, lilke what to do with it when I get it home. Also, is there another way to test the engine while not being on the tracks?


Thanks again,

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hudson said:


> Here's where I am. First, I do have a votage tester but it's not a home so I'll have to go get it.
> 
> I put the 14 ga. wire on, A to the outside, it really brightened up the lights, before only the headlight on one would turn on now both the headlight and the undercarriage light turn on however, the engines still only humm, but humm louder. I oiled everything on both engines that I could see moving, they are both identical 255E engines, one I got as a gift from the original owner that had not used it in 50 years, the other I purchased on e-bay and it was supposedly tested. The wheels do turn freely on both of them. Here's another strange thing that happened. As mentioned before I cleaned one section of straight track to see if it would work on just that track and it only turns on the lights, I tried putting the track back in the circle to make a complete track circle and then tried the power and the lights WOULD NOT come on, took the straight track from the circle and tried it alone again and the lights CAME ON. Since the same thing happens with two identical engines, do you think it could be not enough power from the transformer? I would attempt to take the engines apart if someone could tell me if it's only the screws that need to be taken off or is there more to it than that?
> 
> ...


Yes there is a way, jump the engine off the transformer, no track.
T man told you how to check the e unit, that is the thing with the lever.
Though he did not explain it very well.

Get 2 wires (put alligator clips on if you have some), if not touch the ground to your frame and the hot wire to the center of the engine. Where it would hit the center rail. Some have rollers some just have a pickup clip. I am not sure what yours has.
Do this with the engine upside down.

Hot wire to the center and the other (ground) to the frame. See what happens.

Work that reversing lever back and forth too with power applied. Did you try that?

Try some other tracks maybe you have a bad insulator that is the cardboard/ rubber looking things under the center rail.

Check out the transformer with your tester too, see what you are getting.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I found my tester and I think the problem is the transformer. On A/U it bounces around and settles down at .7 volts, on B/U it's .4 volts. I tried it on my computer power source which is 19 volts and it showed 19.3 volts so if my thinking is correct, the tester is good and the transformer is bad.

I have thre final questions on this:

Am I testing it correctly at the posts and turning the power all the way up?

Is .7 volts enough to turn on the lights as it does?

Should I replace the transformer or is there a way it can be repaired or reset?

Thanks,

Nick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Is the transformer completely disconnected when you perform this test? .7 volts would not turn on the lights bright enough to see I would imagine. The transformer should put out from 16 to 17 volts AC at full throttle.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

If a light is coming on, you must have a decent amount of voltage. A Lionel light is usually a 12, 14, or 18 volt rated incandescent bulb, and they will barely glow until they get within a few volts of their rating. I'm guessing you had your meter set to DC, which is what you'd need for your computer power supply, but Lionel transformers output AC electricity. I suspect your transformer is fine, but you can test it again making sure to set your meter to AC.

As others have said, I really recommend playing around with the E-Unit lever on the locomotive while applying and taking away power, trying to get it to switch through the gears. As for why the light goes out when you complete your track, you might have a short somewhere in the track itself. Traditional tubular track uses insulation under the rails on each tie to isolate the center rail from the two outer rails, so even if the insulation is missing or worn through in one tiny spot it could cause a short. Or, the track pieces are just losing connection when they get bent around together and need to be tightened.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Right again forum. I put it on AC and got 15.11. I suspended one train from two supports, front and rear and applied power as mentioned above, the humming got louder and then the wheels started turning on one of the engines, but not the other. I put the one that was turning back up and now it won't turn, I did slide the lever back and forth a few times it didn't do anything. I'll keep messing with the lever, if you have any other suggestions, please fire away as I now know it's not the transformer.

Thanks,

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hudson said:


> Right again forum. I put it on AC and got 15.11. I suspended one train from two supports, front and rear and applied power as mentioned above, the humming got louder and then the wheels started turning on one of the engines, but not the other. I put the one that was turning back up and now it won't turn, I did slide the lever back and forth a few times it didn't do anything. I'll keep messing with the lever, if you have any other suggestions, please fire away as I now know it's not the transformer.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nick


You got to take the shell off so you/we can see the engine.
Pictures, do you have a camera?

The shell should come off with a few screws taken off.
You might have a wire touching/rubbed hitting metal somewhere or maybe a loose connection. Might need a little cleaning and lube with the shell off.
the brushes might need replacing and it's parts cleaned up.

If you get the shell off and take good pictures maybe we can see something.

Some e unit threads courtesy of our T-man, (the e unit is the piece with the lever it reverses the engine.)

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6748

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3040

This might be the same thread as above though it might have more info then the other, I don't know why T has it listed twice? (I think it is the same one)
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3040

Here is a schematic of an e unit.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=54283&postcount=51

I never had your engine, if I had some side and bottom pictures I could probably tell you which screws to remove so the shell comes off, then we can get to work.


Put some pictures here.


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## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

When you are playing with the E-Unit lever, be sure to turn the throttle on the transformer all the way down, then back up, and repeat as this is what makes the E-Unit cycle. You should hear it click through the gears each time.

If you are testing with wire leads run directly to the locomotive, maybe play around with the connection to the locomotive frame as it can be a somewhat intermittent depending on where it's connected, in my experience. Since you got one of the engines to run, even if only for a short time, I'm hopeful that you're on the right track. Sometimes these old locomotives just need a little patience and finesse.

Beyond that, you might need to get into checking internal wiring, cleaning commutator, brushes, or E-Unit servicing.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

And he logs off?

Maybe went to take some pictures?

Hudson, if you study the underside of the engine you should be able to figure out what screws hold the body on.
Once you unscrew them the body will come right off.
I don't have that engine or else I would post some pictures of the process.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think it's time to take the shell off and do some basic lub and cleaning first.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I logged of as I had to leave. I'm really getting confused with this and am afraid if I take them apart I won't get them back together. I know nothing about replacing brushes so I think I'll leave it to a professional. I found a local model train store that is an authorized Lionel service person, he's not open every day so I'll call and see if he'll take a look at them. I truly appreciate all of the replies and suggestions but I don't think I can do it. While they're in the shop, I'll check and clean the tracks the way you have suggested and get ready to set it up. I'll post photos on here after I get them back.

Thanks again

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hudson said:


> I logged of as I had to leave. I'm really getting confused with this and am afraid if I take them apart I won't get them back together. I know nothing about replacing brushes so I think I'll leave it to a professional. I found a local model train store that is an authorized Lionel service person, he's not open every day so I'll call and see if he'll take a look at them. I truly appreciate all of the replies and suggestions but I don't think I can do it. While they're in the shop, I'll check and clean the tracks the way you have suggested and get ready to set it up. I'll post photos on here after I get them back.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Nick



See reply here, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=9130


Post #*46* there.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

These locos don't usually have a problem with bad wiring. And since the light is on, the loco is getting power. What is left is the E unit. If it is stuck in neutral, the loco won't run. Hudson, put the loco on the track and turn the transformer up almost all the way. Then move the reverse lever back and forth and see if anything happens. If you don't hear any clicks or buzzes, it is most likely that the E unit is stuck. If it is stuck, then the loco will need disassembly to clean the E unit. It is also possible that the E unit lever is not making good contact and this is keeping the E unit from cycling. You have two locos, test them both and report back.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nick,

Do you do Skype with video? If so, I'd be happy to have a look-see (via Skype) sometime later this week.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Okay, as I seem to have this going on two topics, I'll only post here from now on. I don't have Skype, but I do have a camera. I have decided to go ahead and give taking it apart a try. I'll start with one and used the other as a diagram if I need it. I'll post my results or more quetions here. I won't be albe to start until later today, keep your fingers crossed.

Nick


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Here is the 255e info.

SInce it is a tinplate, the engine is frame mounted . The steel shell sits in the frame with tabs.
The motor has two screws attached from the bottom to the frame. DOn't have one, so your out of luck with pictures.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I'm a little nervous about getting it back together but I have the motor out of one engine. I'm going to attempt to add 3 photos, please let me know what to do from here. As you can see, there are wires attached to the lights and I don't know how to get them off so I hope I can just leave them attached. Before taking them apart, I tested my tracks and found one bad one, replaced it, tried the engines, the overnight oil must have worked as both of them are somewhat working. The one I have apart went only in reverse, the other went only forward, I tried moving the E lever back and forth and it really didn't do anything. On the photo of the E control, you can see there really is nothing to adjust there so I don't know what to do at this point. I think I'll get out some alcohol and start cleaning while waitng for a reply or two. I hope the photos come out OK as the last one I tried are not on here. I don't know what I'm doing so please let me know what to do before I try putting it back together.

Nick


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

By using the + and - The drum should turn. Clean the drum(1) connections and be careful the contacts are fragile. Remove all that oil and grease way too much.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nick,

I'd shy away from the alcohol. Instead, I'd recommend using GooGone via pipe cleaners, Q-tips, and a very soft toothbrush to degrease / degunk. GooGone is available at any hardware store.

The fact that both motors are running is a very good sign. That means that the wiring in the armature and field coil are OK. If each is running in only one direction, that points to some (likely fixable) hiccups with the e-unit.

If you follow my cleaning suggestions below, be VERY careful to NOT disturb soldered wire end-connections in the process, especially the wire that runs to the back/inside of the pickup roller plate on the bottom of the motor.

But first ... degunk. You definitely need to unscrew the brush plate holder from the side of the motor, remove that carefully -- being especially careful to understand the positioning of theplate and the "paper clip like" brush springs, and make sure that those and the brushes (little solid-metal cylinders) don't fly away across the room in the process.

Clean the brushes in a small cup of GooGone. With the brush plate holder and brushes removed, you should be able to remove the armature ... that's the 3-pole cylinder thingy with all of the copper wirings around it. Note the 3-segmented copper face ... that's called the commutator. You're will likely be blackened with crud and age.

Clean the commutator (copper face) with GooGone, toothbrush, and a rubber pencil eraser. You should work until the 3-segment copper plates are nice and shiny.

Back on the motor frame itself, remove the gear holder plate from the other side of the motor. Use GooGone with a toothbrush to degunk all of the gearing. Then, use GooGone and pipe cleaners to degunk the wheel axles and the bearings where they pass through the sideplates of the motor.

Clean the two pickup rollers on the bottom of the motor.

Reassemble the armature, brushplate holder (with brushes and springs), and gear holder plate.

Add a small drop of 5W-20 or 5W-30 motor oil to all moving/spinning parts/bearings.

Give the motor a whirl, and see how it runs. 

(This will likely not fix the fwd/reverse issue, but I think you'll find the the motor will run much faster/easier in the operational direction.)

You can power the motor with one (hot) jumper lead to one of the pickup rollers, and another (ground) to anywhere on the motor frame. The motor and e-unit need to be upright for the e-unit to work/cycle properly ... the e-unit solenoid is gravity-dependent.

We'll coach you through e-unit issues next.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

T-Man, I cleaned up the oil and grease before I received your photo. I put it back together and tried it. It went forward, I stopped it, tried again, and it wouldn't go, tried again and it went in reverse, this is without touching the E lever. I think that I accidently discovered the 1033 transformer switches gears by turning the power on and off unless you think its working wrong. The orange handle says change directions but it doesn't do anything. If you can let me know on the transformer reversing it, that problem wil be solved. The other engine I'm going to let sit until tomorrow or the next day as I'm running out of time and energy. 

One problem in putting it back together, I can't get the little round clip back on to hold the rear wheels on, the front one snapped right on but this one is giving me fits, any suggestions there, and the headlight goes on an off.

Last question, how do I clean and/or lubricate the whistle in the 263W tender, it makes a sound but nothing like a whistle?

Thanks again,

Nick


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

TJ, I cleaned it pretty good but not as good as you described. However, when I do the other engine I'll do more of what you suggest and can always go back to the first one and do it again. It is running pretty good with the exceptions of my above post. I do have goo gone in the garage but never thought about using it, somewhere on here there was a post to use 90% rubbing alcohol and it did seem to do a good job, I oiled everything with 3 in 1 household oil. Any advice on the whistle?

Nick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

hudson said:


> T-Man, I cleaned up the oil and grease before I received your photo. I put it back together and tried it. It went forward, I stopped it, tried again, and it wouldn't go, tried again and it went in reverse, this is without touching the E lever. I think that I accidently discovered the 1033 transformer switches gears by turning the power on and off unless you think its working wrong.


It sounds like it's working correctly, your first repair is well on it's way!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, the directions you got were to use 5W-20/30 motor oil. 3 in 1 oil will get gummy in a few years as it evaporates and leaves a gummy residue behind. Get some motor oil and lube the loco again. The motor oil will probably keep the 3 in 1 from getting gummy.

Do you understand that the E unit cycles through forward, neutral, reverse, neutral, forward, etc? The E unit cycles each time you turn off the power. The orange lever on the transformer should turn off the power when it is moved to the "direction" position. 

The whistle motor needs to be lubed to make it work properly. Motor oil again. Not 3 in 1 or grease or Lionel Lube. Motor oil and only motor oil. Oil the gears on the locos also.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Servoguy, I used the 3 in 1 before I read the post about using motor oil, will re-do with motor oil. I did not understand the workings of the E unit, nor did I know how to operate the orange lever until I just read your latest post.

Looking at the tender, there are two forward flat screws, and rear of center two smaller rounded screws that appear to be holding a part to the base. Do you know if I should reomove all 4 or just the front ones to take it apart for cleaning and oiling.?

Thanks,

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, to tell you how to get the tender apart, I need some pictures. Lionel used many methods to hold the shells on.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

*Tender Photos*

I'll tried to add the photos here and they failed. I have to leave for a couple hours and I'll try again later.

Nick


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Make sure the photos aren't too big in pixel size.

That's a 263W tender you have, right? The Vanderbilt style. I've never fiddled with one, but I'd guess that the middle screws hold the whistle motor/fan assembly to the frame. You likely do NOT have to remove those to remove the shell ... try removing only the other screws.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The tender could have screws in the 4 corners on the underside, or a screw front and rear, or a screw in the front and a tab in the back, etc. Two screws would be unusual if they are on the underside. Should be four if they are on the underside.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

*tender photos*

I'll try attaching the tender photos one more time. The photo showing the screws, there are actually two on the left end one is hidden under the wheel.

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, can you take photos of the ends and sides of the tender?

The two round head screws in the center probably hold the whistle in place. Don't remove them. The two screws near the front of the tender probably are holding the shell on, but there must be something else holding the shell, also. Look for some screws on the rear of the tender or tabs.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, look for a single screw in the rear under the coupler. It should match the two in the front.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

There are no other screws but there are two tabs under the rear wheels. I think I feel safe in taking out the two front screws and then the two tabs. I'll get photos of the inside once I get it opened and post them here for instructions, this time I'll ask first before I start on it as I have no idea what to expect inside of it.

Nick


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

*Inside tender photos*

Here are two photos of the inside. I can say that this has never been opened before as there were no scratches whatsoever on the tabs, also I did have to take out the other two screws. It is bone dry inside and a some rust here and there, hopefully someone can tell me what to do.

Thanks,

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

When you had your engine apart did you take off the brush plate?
And clean what probably was black? (the commutator ) that is under the brush plate and should be shiny after it is cleaned. you have to clean the grooves out to as they will be filled with stuff, most likely.

The whistles motor works the same way with brushes.
This whistle is not yours but I want to show you what is under a brush plate.

I kind of think you were afraid take the brush plate off of the engine?
Did you?

Pop that plate off and clean up all the parts and you should see a big difference in running.
The engine and whistle both have brushes you should clean them.

See the center piece with the pin sticking up, the piece with the grooves that should be nice and shiny when cleaned, clean out the groves too, you got to do the engine also.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

You're right I didn't take the brush plate off, I'll attempt that on the second engine and if it works out I'll go back and do it to the first one as I have to re-oil it with motor oil, for now it runs very well, it actually goes way too fast even at half throttle with all of the cars attached. The whistle motor, etc. looks like it would be quite a job to get out of the tender, again, I'm not sure I want to attempt taking it further apart but I'll sleep on it tonight and see how it looks again in the morning. There is nothing inside to wipe off except a little dry rust as there is no grease or oil anywhere in there. Would hitting it with motor oil in spots do any good at all?

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You have the whistle motor far enough apart. Don't try to remove the armature. There are two bearings on the motor. You can see one of them. The other one is below the armature. Both need oil. You can reach the lower one with a toothpick or bent paper clip with a drop of oil on it. I would give the lower bearing two drops of oil. Oil the upper bearing and oil the wick. If you get oil on the commutator, don't worry about it. It makes the motor run better. I always oil the commutators on my motors. Use motor oil for this motor.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Per Ed (and perhaps in contrast to Servoguy), I would recommend exposing and cleaning the commutator on the tender armature.

The photo of Ed's whistle shows a little rectangular wick reservoir mounted in way of the upper armature bearing. Nick, if you're tender has one of those, put a few good drops of the motor oil in that wick. That's what it's there for.

You should also clean and check the functionality of the whistle's relay control. If you look at the exposed whistle, there's the motor (armature spinning in field coil) that drive the fan impeller, along with an electromagnet relay device that acts like a switch to turn the whistle on/off. This relay engages when a pulse of DC power is superimposed on the normal AC track power. When the relay is activated (with DC power), the electromagnet is energized, and a little pivoting plate below the relay "jumps up" into the magnet, essentially turning the switch "on". When this happens, AC power can now flow into the fan impeller motor, running the whistle.

So, with that, put power to the whistle (both AC along with DC via your transformer whistle button"), and see if the relay plate jumps up as it should. Put a drop of oil on each side of its pivot. (Like an e-unit, the relay and pivot plate must be upright during testing ... gravity dependent.)

You should be able to see the actual electrical contacts on the pivot plate. Clean those with a pipe cleaner, or even a quick / soft rub with some fine emery cloth. You want a good, clean electrical connection there.

Regards,

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

*more photos*

TJ, I really don't understand your post as I don't know what all of those parts are that you mentioned. I took it apart further and am including the photos, there should be 3. #1 I believe is the whistle fan, I took it out, cleaned and oiled it, put it back in and it spun freely but would not turn when power was added, you can see the outside of the round "thing" that it turns within is somewhat rusty and I don't know how to get it clean. #2 is the part where the whistle fan sits in, you can see two little brass/copper pins that move in and out, they go in and out if I push on them. #3 is the balance of the internal workings of the car. I don't see where I can take it apart any further, so what should I do with what I have lying around in pieces? I can't find a reservoir and I have no idea what you mean by a pivot. I'm open to try whatever you all suggest but please use terminology that a non-electrical person could understand, even if it sounds childish to you it would probably make it easier for me. I'm going to be leaving here shortly for the rest of the day and evening but look forward to finding more advice on here in the morning. Sorry I'm making this so hard but I really don't know what I'm doing. I just noticed the second photo wouldn't work so you will find on here only #1 and #3, I'll try to redo it and send it with another post.

Nick


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

*Trying the other photo*

I'll attempt to attach the #2 photo here.

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, you are doing well. Keep it up.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, back away with the camera to get better focus.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nick I think the T man has a thread about all the parts you are working with now. So when we say armature or brush plate, wick reservoir etc, so you will know what we are talking about.
He I think has one with pictures so you can see the names.

I looked but could not find it, I put in a message to T man asking.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

FOr parts see the Train Tender Picture list. Motor, armature, brush, e unit are all there.

Motors of the RUe Morgue covers some basics. The motors may vary but they all operate the same.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nick,

Read through my post again, and try to follow my logic about how the whistle works. Then, read this document ... it's a "must" for your understanding ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=708

Here's your pics with I.D. tags ...

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

*Back again*

I just got back on this and attached is a clearer photo, hope it comes out okay. I'll now read the attachements you have sent and re-read the posts and see if I can get it back together and going.

Nick


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

The insulation on the wires that run from the frame's center pickup roller to the whistle, and from the whistle back to the frame (ground) looks pretty dry, brittle, and chewed up. (A common ailment for this vintage stuff.) You'll likely want to replace those wires.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I was thinking the same thing, interior or inside insulation isn't bare yet so I think it's okay for testing puposes but I will get my soldering gun home and re-do the wires after I figure out what I'm doing., or should I hold off going any further until I replace the wires? The attachements you guys have included are great and should be all I need. However, I can't get them to print out, do any of you know the trick involved in printing them? Also, can you tell me how to print your posts. My computer is not near my work area so I have to keep running back and forth to look at the pictures and your instructions. If I can't print them, can you figure out a way to e-mail them to me, especially the ones regarding the tender from Olsen Toys. My e-mail address is [email protected]

Thanks,

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

While your in your whistle see my pictures mine had hornets living in it.
The second picture you see the hole in the side of the whistle housing after I removed the mud? Take some air and blow out both sides of the whistle housing.
One slot/hole is for air intake and the other side expels the whistle/air.
You might as well blow it out as long as it is apart.
A can of air will work if you don't have a compressor.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Ed, I would never have guessed that the slots ( I found them) were anything to do with the whistle, I'll blow them out as part of the clean up.

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hudson said:


> Ed, I would never have guessed that the slots ( I found them) were anything to do with the whistle, I'll blow them out as part of the clean up.
> 
> Nick



When it is together and the impeller spins it sucks in air from one side and expels it through the other to make the whistle sound.
You might as well, mine was solid with microscopic hornets and mud.
I guess the were baby hornets.
You might have a dead spider, dust or something in there.

Sorry I can't help you on your other questions right now.
I got 47 hours in at work in 4 days and one more work day to go.
Just a normal 5 day 60 hour plus work week, sucks I would welcome a 8 hr day sometimes.
Then they ask if I want to work Saturday! Yeah right I tell them.
I told them many of times don't even bother asking me.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I understand.

Nick


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nick,

To print a post, highlight (with your cursor) the text in a post, and then <Ctrl>-<C> copy it to your computer's clipboard. Then, go to some other program like Word or Wordpad, and <Ctrl>-<V> past the content there. You should be able to print from that.

You can also right-click here to pull up a menu which will allow you to print all posts.

You can also right click and Ctrl-C on a photo to copy it to the clipboard, then Ctrl-V paste it to Paint or similar for printing.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Another way is to left-click the post # in the upper right of each post, that will give you a page to print with just that post on it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Cool ... I like that trick.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm going to be off this project for the holiday weekend, it will give me time to have my daughter come over and figure out how to copy this stuff ( yes, I'm bad with computers also), I can get my wire, solder, etc. found as I haven't used it in years, clean up my mess and get ready to put this thing back together. I'll post my progress next week. Have a good holiday.

Nick


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

hudson said:


> I'm going to be off this project for the holiday weekend, it will give me time to have my daughter come over and figure out how to copy this stuff ( yes, I'm bad with computers also), I can get my wire, solder, etc. found as I haven't used it in years, clean up my mess and get ready to put this thing back together. I'll post my progress next week. Have a good holiday.
> 
> Nick


What is the hurry?
Just keep all the parts in a box, they won't run away.

Buy one of these not bad for $25. Increase your knowledge and it has pictures.
There is another, a blue book, if you search but basically it is the same book.
I got one of each.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Greenbergs-Repair-and-Operating-Manual-for-Lionel-Trains-1945-1969-Seventh-ed-/120971423467?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c2a756eeb

Edit,

Though it might not have your engine the motors run on the same principals. A lot of info can pertain to your motor.
There is a ton of info on other stuff too, nice to have.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> What is the hurry?
> Just keep all the parts in a box, they won't run away.
> 
> Buy one of these not bad for $25. Increase your knowledge and it has pictures.
> ...



Edit again in case the link is not working here is the item #
120971423467 search on e bay and it will come up.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I did manage to print off some of this stuff, found my solder, flux, and gun and some wire. Also found that my gun doesn't work so I'll try to buy a new one tomorrow. I'm glad I have a lot of time before the holidays.

I'll be back,

Nick


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Patience for the patient!


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I made some progress. Blew out the whistle, soldered two new wires on, put it back together and it only clicked. Found that the pivoting plate was not making contact so I bent the upper contact down slightly, put power to it and the impeller motor is running. It "does not" make a whistle sound, I can feel the air coming out the end but all I can hear is the motor running. I beleive I followed everyones instructions but I might have missed something, where do I go from here, is there something inside the whistle that might be stuck?

Thanks,

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Did you lube both of the motor bearings? There is an upper and lower bearing. If you didn't lube them, the motor can will not run fast enough to make the whistle work.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Well, you're most of the way there. That's the good news.

Ditto to Bruce.

Also, I believe you had the impeller out in one photo. Are the blades intact and undamaged? Is there any cracking / broken pieces on the plastic fan housing box? Either could affect sound quality.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I found nothing broken on the fan housing. I re-oiled the top bearing and the hole the impeller/armature shaft sits in between the brushes. Still doing the same. Three more clues that might help. #1 the wind is coming out through the whistle body cover plate seam, don't know if there is a gasket in there or if it's supposed to come out through the seam, if not, where is the exit point of the air? #2 using the 1033 transformer, the motor runs at 3/4 throttle (orange lever) but if I go any further it stops running, is that normal? #3 the brushes have blue sparks, is that normal?

Getting close,

Nick


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I taped off the seams around the body and it does now make a whistle sound so I would assume there is a bad gasket or something but there are no screws to take it apart. The whistle however is not a variable pitch and the motor has sort of a rough sound and is louder than the whistle??? Also still need some advice on the above three questions , not rushing just don't want that post to get buried. I'll be logging off soon but will check back tomorrow.

Nick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The orange lever on the 1033 is usually the direction/whistle control, not the throttle.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nick,

I think you cleaned the copper 3-segment armature face, right? Also, did you clean the little tiny cylindrical brushes that sit in the "cans"? GooGone, eraser, etc.

I'm wondering if your brush springs are in OK shape. Sometimes, these get compressed where they don't push the brushes with enough pressure towards the armature face.

Just a though.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I do know that the orange lever is the whistle control, I gues I should have stated that it cuts out after 3/4 power instead of 3/4 throttle, sorry.

I did clean the armature face, but the instructions mentioned something about cleaning out the fine lines and I don't know what that meant, and should I sand inside the body? I had the brushes out but I did not clean them, that I can do, the springs seem to work freely and have good strength. Is there a way to get the bearings out to check them, I really didn't see a lower bearing between the brushes, just a hole that the shaft sits in. Also, any advice on the air leaking around the body?

Nick


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

The "commutator" armature face is composed of 3 even pie-shaped copper segments. Clean the small groove between each segments with a toothpick and some GooGone. You want to make sure there's no crud that would cause a spark / current flow between the segments.

Clean the contact face of the brushes for conductivity, and the cylinder-outside of the brushes to make sure they "float" in / out of the brush cans OK.

How long are your brushes? These do wear down in length over time, and must be replaced.

Lionel whistles vary, but several do require a gasket in the whistle box. Usually part WS-60. Not sure about your specific whistle, though. A good seal around the body is important. You could try a small bead of clear silicone.

As a sanity check, are you sure your whistle motor is wired to turn the correct way? The motor should run in a counter-clockwise direction when viewed from the brushplate side.

Some whistles have a bearing cylinder (WS-107) with a tiny ball bearing (WS-106) for the lower bearing point.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

TJ,

Thanks, I'll go through your list this afternoon and see what I can find and do.

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you whistle controller doesn't work when you move the lever all the way, this is probably what is causing your whistle to work poorly. The whistle controller has two positions: The first position adds a 2-3 volt DC signal onto the normal AC power that powers the loco and whistle motor. This pulls the whistle relay in. The second position reduces the DC signal to a few tenths of a volt and increases the power to the track to account for the power necessary to run the whistle motor in addition to the loco. If your whistle controller doesn't supply power to the track when the lever is moved all the way, then apparently you have a problem with the whistle control circuit in the transformer. Try operating the whistle control without the tender on the track and see if the loco speeds up when the whistle control is moved all the way in the whistle position. If the loco doesn't speed up, your transformer has a problem.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I tried the locomotive alone and it does speed up. Prior to this I had been putting only the tender on the tracks and it wouldn't take full power. After trying the locomotive alone, I attached the tender to it and it will now take full power. I taped the seams of the body again and tried it with the locomotive and it does whistle. The motor still seams a little rough/loud so I'm going to go through your other sugestions now and see if I can quiet it down a bit, I'll also try silicone caulk on the seams but knowing how many times I went to the store for this project I'm going to guess that I don't have any silicone lying around. The more I work on this the more familiar I'm getting with the various parts and the workings of the unit for which I thank you all.

I'll be back later,

Nick


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Okay, cleaned the armature groove, there is only the top bearing, on the bottom the shaft goes straight through, the impeller is spinning in the correct direction,the brushes are a heavy 5/16" long, I cleaned them and the springs, they go in and out very easily, and I cleaned the cans, now I have one last question. The brushes are narrower on one end and I can't remember which way they were before I took them out, does the narrow end go into the cans which would put the tip inside the springs, or does the wider end go in the cans and push down around the outside edge of the springs? I put the wider end in the cans to test the springs. After I hear which way to place them for sure, I'll put it all back together and caulk the seams and let it dry good overnight.

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The narrow end goes into the can and into the end of the spring. 

There are two bearings for the motor. One is the obvious one that is in the brushplate. The other one is somewhere on the other side of the armature. From the pictures it appears to be at the very end of the shaft. If you put it all together without oiling the 2nd bearing, you need to take it apart and oil the 2nd bearing. Without oil, the friction will be very high and the motor won't run very well. All motors have two bearings to support the shaft.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Now I'm getting confused, I will reverse the brushes from where I have them. As far as the bearing in the brush plate, if you look at my photo, the one where you circled the cans, the hole between the cans is where the shaft seats, you can look through the hole to the other side. If there are bearings in there they have be be mighty small as the hole itself is only the diameter of a cocktail toothpick. The other end that is sealed is where I assumed the bearing is. Also on the attachment that you sent to me, the page showing the armature only shows the one bearing??? I'm going to go back and look at those diagrams again.

Do you think something could have fallen out of the hole between the cans? I laid out everything on a white cloth and I just looked again and there are no extra parts on it.

Nick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's some brushes, the small end actually gets stuffed into the spring.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Nick, the hole in the brush plate is the bearing. 

What about the bearing on the other end of the shaft? Where is it? You are not looking for a ball bearing or roller bearing, just the hole that the motor shaft turns in, similar to the hole in the brush plate.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Okay, now I understand. The bearing for the other end of the shaft is attached to the cover plate and the shaft clicks tightly into it and it spins very freely by hand. So I think/hope that part of the project is settled. Gunrunner, thanks for the photo I will reverse them before I put power to it tomorrow (I'm letting the caulk on the body seams dry tonight). I'm assuming that the 5/16" length of the brushes is correct?
I think everything is cleaned, and oiled, the reservoir you told me to oil was caked with what looked like heavy orange grease so I cleaned it out and put fresh oil in it, I hope I was supposed to do that. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow after reversing the brushes and hooking it up. Hopefully by the end of the week I can post a photo of the whole set up. If all goes well with the tender, next week I'll start working on the second 255E, I already know that I have some questions on that one.

Thanks again,

Nick


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

OK, you found the bearing. Did you lube it?


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, I had already oiled that earlier today.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Had a little time so I reversed the brushes, double checked everything for cleaning and oiling, hooked it up and it worked just about the same as when the brushes were in the wrong way. One problem I now have is that the magnetic plate that make the switch contact doesn't close everytime I hit the lever, most of the time it does but not always so I don't want to put the cover back on until I figure that out. I also can't allow the whistle to blow very long as it make the loco go too fast for the layout I have and at a lower speed, the enging cuts out so I guess I'll have to make a larger layout. What I have now is sort of a rectangle using two 031 curved tracks at each corner, one straight track at each end and two straight tracks on each side and I'm afraid that at a higher speed it will flip off at the curves.

Nick


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Try to isolate whistle car issue from transformer / whistle controller issues ...

The whistle relay switch (magnetic plate gizmo, in your terms) is activated with a DC power signal ... about 1.5 volts DC to initialize (close), and about 0.5 to 1.0 volts DC to hold the magnetic plate closed. Try powering the whistle with a 1.5V DC battery ... it won't run the whistle fan motor itself, but it should reliably close the relay.

Then, manually close the relay, and put some AC power to the whistle ... the fan motor should run OK.

TJ


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

I think it was some of the track as it doesn't work correctly only on certain sections. I'm going out of state tomorrow and will clean everything up over the upcoming weekend and see how it goes.

Nick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

hudson said:


> I think it was some of the track as it doesn't work correctly only on certain sections.


Well, that's a giant red flag!


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

What do you mean?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I mean that if it fails only on certain sections of the layout, that's a red flag that indicates you have track power feed issues. If it works on a track section close to the transformer connection, I'd be looking at track joints and extra power drops for the layout.


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## hudson (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I got it finished, put back together, cleaned the tracks and all is well. Thank you to everyone that walked me through this. I'm going to attempt to attach two photos of the finished product. One photo shows the second 255E that will be my next project after doing things around the house that I've neglected while working on the tender.

Thanks again,

Nick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

We love success stories.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

They look good on the shiny table.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Nick,

That's FABULOUS news! Very glad to hear that the loco, tender, and track are all up and running. They look pristine ... really crisp / original paintwork. What nice treasures!

Enjoy,

TJ


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