# Turnouts - Switches Issues



## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

Howdy All, lately I've been having some issues with my HO scale turnouts/switches that has become very frustrating for me. I learned decades ago that when you become frustrated in this hobby, simply walk away & come back later then things typically work out however, this time it doesn't seem to be the case?

I have switches/turnouts made by Peco, Bachmann, Atlas, Atlas Custom-Line & a company known as Casadio from Italy & all of these seem to have the same issues. Is it that the newer stuff is just junk or have I lost the touch??? I'm not new to this as I'm sixty years old & have been playing with trains since I was ten. Here's my issues:

Either I'm having problems with power getting thru the switches or I keep having derailment issues. Typically I can tweak or file down the rough spots to prevent derailments & I've recently learned that many of the older switches/turnouts are NOT DCC friendly so, I've learned to wire them in a way that they eventually work but lately, it's been one problem after another with power and/or derailments. Any insight, tips, tricks, etc... would be greatly appreciated.

Now, much of my stock is NOS but is still new, just older stuff. It seems I can get the older stuff to work properly but, this new stuff just doesn't cut it. What am I doing wrong??? The ones I have the best luck with are the older Atlas Custom-Line switches/turnouts, where I just connect them & all is fine. I'm thinking maybe of going with ALL Atlas Custom-Line & tossing everything else. Help!

Thanks in advance pards.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I am now using Peco Insulfrog turnouts with the Pl10 twin coil
machine. Other than the need to possibly add a power drop from the
two frog rails I have had no problem whatever with them.
There just are not derails on Pecos.

We can probably help on your turnout ailments. Let's take
'em one at a time til we get 'em all running smooth.

Fire at Will. (He's the one with the bullet proof vest).

Don


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

My favorite turnouts to use are the Atlas Custom-Line because they are built well. I've been able to get the power issue cleared up with those but, I keep having derailment issues? I've sanded the edges that were rough, tweaked the inside thin rails so they lined up properly & still my trains jump the rails?

The Pecos I had worked beautiful with no derailing but I couldn't get the power issues fixed? The train would stop every time & I would just bump it by hand until it grabbed power again until I got tired of that. Those are my issues Don.

Thanks, Bo.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Peco turnouts are pretty bulletproof, I'm just starting with them but have no issues at all.

Peco makes two different types of turnouts/switches, one had an insulated frog and one is a powered frog. 

This is a insulated frog. This works good for DCC as well as DC. You can see the two black insulators cutting the the rails coming into the frog and the insulated frog point.







You don't need any special wiring here just power to all rails 


This is a powered frog. You can see the difference in the two.
To run this one you need to put insulating rail joiners on the two diverging rails coming off the frog and power to all rails after the insulators. 






Put insulators on both center rails on this side.

If this doesn't do it tell us what type turnout/switch you are using and DonR will figuer it all out, he's very good at that.  :smilie_daumenpos:


Atlas Custonline turnouts are all right but derailing issues will get worse as time goes on, I'm not to hot on them vs Pecos. 
Magic


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## mikek (Dec 29, 2013)

You say the older stock navigates the turnouts better. Maybe they have deeper flanges on the wheels..? Or maybe they are heavier, or something like that.


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

mikek said:


> You say the older stock navigates the turnouts better. Maybe they have deeper flanges on the wheels..? Or maybe they are heavier, or something like that.


Pretty much ALL of my turnouts are 25+ years old or possibly older? They are still new in the boxes because I bought a case of mixed brands years ago when a train shop was going out of business in West Virginia. I was back there talking a course at a university & I ran into the shop by pure luck. I still have new rolling stock & about a dozen DC locomotives that are brand new in the boxes. I don't think the Pecos are that old but I haven't purchased any turnouts in at least 15 years so, they are definitely not newer products. That may be my problem as well? Was DCC real big 15 years ago? I do know the older stuff is heavier & built much better than this junk we get today!


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

Magic said:


> Peco turnouts are pretty bulletproof, I'm just starting with them but have no issues at all.
> 
> Peco makes two different types of turnouts/switches, one had an insulated frog and one is a powered frog.
> 
> ...


The Pecos I have look like the ones in your top photograph. Once I went DCC, one of the fellows down at the local train club told me I needed to wire ALL rails on my Pecos or they wouldn't work properly so that's what I did. They have never worked properly since? I have no derailments on those but, it's the power issue that became so frustrating. Now, my Pecos are about 15+ years old because it's been that long since I purchased any turnouts of any kind so, perhaps that's the issue?

The older NOS Atlas Custom-Line turnouts are built very well & are much heavier than the ones we get today but, I have the derailment issues with those. I've tweaked the thin parts of the rails to make them line up properly with the solid rails, then I would file or sand the rough edges thinking that was causing the derailments & that helped for a while, then the same issue began happening? It's really frustrating because I would love to have a nice train yard where I could do a lot of switching & moving rolling stock around but, the headaches haven't been worth it to me. I currently have two Atlas Custom-Line turnouts, the longer ones (they made two sizes) that I'm using on the new layout & those work perfectly every single time, power-wise & tracking-wise. Now why I can't get the others to be like those two is simply mind boggling to me???


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

for the derailment issues.

have you checked for expansion, contraction, or warping on the platform? i thought i remembered some posts where u were building or adding too the layout.

if some of the turnouts are existing that did work and now don't it seems that something has physically changed.:dunno:

good luck. somebody here should figure it out.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Couple questions about your Peco turnouts:

Since you say they are years old, it maybe
that the points are not making good contact
with the fixed rails due to corrosion or gunk.

Does the loco that paused on the turnouts
have all wheel power pickup? I had the
pause or stop issue on one loco and found that a wire had broken
off of a truck power pickup wiper. Another time, I was
working on a loco for a friend. It had power pickup
on one truck only. It paused or stopped on
turnouts. I added wipers to the non power truck
and all was fine thereafter.

On the Peco Insulfrog, as shown in Magic's first
picture is power routing. The power is ON only
for the direction of the points. The other frog rail
will be dead.

Don


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

DonR said:


> Couple questions about your Peco turnouts:
> 
> Since you say they are years old, it maybe
> that the points are not making good contact
> ...


Well Don, here's what I've learned so far after I saw cole226's comment late last night. I spent two ours going over all of my turnouts & found several expanded once I put the old NMRA's standards gauge to the rails. I must have tweaked several of them when I pulled them up to dismantle the old layout but, I'm typically real careful with that sort of thing so... who knows?

Another thing that caught my eye which one would think after so many years in this hobby it would have been a "no-brainer" but, my turnouts are both code 83 & code 100 which is odd because I've always used code 100 in my modeling? I must have grabbed the others by mistake or the person who sold them to me failed to mention they were code 83 but, it's been so long since I bought all of those I just can't be sure how I wound up with so many code 83 turnouts? Now, ALL of my turnouts are brass rail but that wouldn't make a difference correct?

I did notice one of the Peco turnouts has one of the little rivets missing which I had not noticed before so I'm sure that's a problem when it comes to power & tracking both because, when I pushed down lightly on that rail with the missing rivet, it tweaked off to one side. Keep in mind that while all my turnouts are old, they were still new items in the factory packaging when I first used them.

All I know is I have really bad luck with turnouts for whatever reason & I want lots of turnouts on my layout which is what makes this so frustrating for me! So, with what I've posted here, what do you guys think? Any suggestions as to how I should continue from this point? Should I just toss all those & buy new or what? Thanks again in advance guys, I truly do appreciate all the help & insight, Bo.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Peco makes a short transition piece to switch from code 100 to code 83 track. But it might be simpler to just put some thin cardboard shims under the code 83 turnouts to raise them up so that the tops of the rails match the code 100 track.

The main disadvantage of brass rail is that it oxidizes, which reduces the conductivity, which makes your trains run slower or with speeds that vary (with the same throttle setting). If you clean it FREQUENTLY it will work fine.

Turnouts are not cheap. If you want lots and want to save money, go through the turnouts and start with those that are in spec and seem to be fully functional. Then go through the others one by one and try to identify what its problem is. If you can be specific for each turnout, we can try and help.


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> Peco makes a short transition piece to switch from code 100 to code 83 track. But it might be simpler to just put some thin cardboard shims under the code 83 turnouts to raise them up so that the tops of the rails match the code 100 track.
> 
> The main disadvantage of brass rail is that it oxidizes, which reduces the conductivity, which makes your trains run slower or with speeds that vary (with the same throttle setting). If you clean it FREQUENTLY it will work fine.
> 
> Turnouts are not cheap. If you want lots and want to save money, go through the turnouts and start with those that are in spec and seem to be fully functional. Then go through the others one by one and try to identify what its problem is. If you can be specific for each turnout, we can try and help.


OK, this sounds like a plan so, I'm going to sit down today (all day) going thru my turnouts to locate each & every flaw I find, The ones that don't appear to have issues, I will set up a temporary mini layout using both DC & DCC, both steam & diesel power units & we'll go from there! It's funny you would mention the conductivity issue because way back when I was buying tons of track & turnouts, the "old timers" at that time (mid-70's) told me to be sure I purchased ONLY brass rail because it was the better conductor of DC power! I was told that by several old times so, it wasn't like I took one guy's word for it? At the moment I have like 5 huge boxes of brass rail, code 100, straights in all sizes, curves in 15", 18" & 22", I have several wyes, power connector tracks, coupler release tracks & countless cross-overs in all sizes which all told probably comes to more than a thousand feet or more of brass track?

Now my current layout & the previous one is all nickel-plated track (Flex-track) less the turnouts which are ALL brass. You're absolutely correct when you say these turnouts are not cheap, especially by today's pricing! If I had to replace all the turnouts I have now with new ones, I would go broke just replacing the turnouts! So, just for my own benefit, you're saying I'm losing some power at the brass turnouts compared to my regular track which is nickel-plates stainless or whatever they use today, lol?


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

My layout was inherited as an old, all brass layout. I have replaced some of the track with nickel-silver. If I keep the brass polished, I don't see much difference in speed between them. BUT, I am using DC. DCC may be another story -- I don't know -- I am clueless on DCC.

Before nickel-silver track became common, brass was advertised as better than steel. If you have any steel track, get rid of it.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*mixng rail codes/metals*

It's been possible to mix metals and codes. The later, special rail joiners are used.
Regard's,tr1


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

OK gentlemen, this is a copy/paste from another thread I just answered concerning a response on my "Layout" thread when a member brought up the turnouts. With things being what they are with my situation, I figured it was much better to copy & paste it over here to explain what I think I've been doing wrong all this time with my turnouts. Understand this is from fooling around with this whole idea ALL day & this is what I discovered about the turnouts & about myself! I apologize for it being a bit long winded but it was the only way I could think of explaining it so all would understand? My original post below:
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I think I've learned a valuable lesson today when it comes to my layouts that I obviously was doing wrong? My neighbor came over today to assist me in setting up a work are so I could spend an entire day messing with my turnouts. I have one of those 3'x8' folding tables like you see at these train shows or convention halls, etc. So, I had him set that up for me, then I had him place an old glass door (I had from one of those old entertainment centers that use to have the glass doors to keep the dust down) on the table top because that makes for an excellent work bench. The glass door is that smoked glass about 1/4" thick with the nice smooth edges & it's roughly 20" W x 36" L & makes a great work surface!

The first thing I noticed when I set 8 of the turnouts on the bench all but one did not sit flat on the surface? They were all bowed on the bottom of the plastic ties & the 8th one was twisted, also not sitting flat on the bench. Well, this is definitely a problem. It seems that I may have caused the ties to bow from tightening the screws too much to hold the track down causing the plastic rails to bow. Well, that would cause the rails to bow-in which would explain the derailments! I've always been a stickler for my track being well mounted & it seems I may have gone overboard on my turnouts?

You see, I don't just use the tiny factory holes in the plastic ties to pound those tiny nails in, rather I've always used tiny screws & drilling more holes in the plastic ties to make sure my track was perfectly mounted flat. I put a screw like every 6" on the flex-track & plenty on turnouts, crossings, etc. Looks like I may have been over-doing it a bit, lol.

Now the power issues? I think I misunderstood long ago on how to wire those because I've always soldered wires to every rail on the turnout & I think that was my problem? Tonight I soldered wiring only to the outside rails & one wire just past the plastic frog on each inner rail & they are working beautifully now. But, this is with 4 NEW turnouts that I hadn't used before that were still new in the box. I think I have finally figured out what I've been doing wrong all these years & I feel like a complete putz!

I have 4 NOS turnouts along with 8 sections of flex-track mounted to this folding table with double-sided tape to hold everything perfectly flat & well attached. Using gator-clip wiring for DC & DCC both, I ran 4 DC locomotives with a few pieces of rolling stock, then I did the same with 4 DCC locomotives w/rolling stock & not one single problem! I was so tickled that I became angry at myself for being so stupid all these years with over-doing it on mounting my turnouts & improper wiring. The fix was so easy I feel like a complete fool.

Now, if I can get this to work on the layout, I will be so ecstatic I might have to take a Valium to calm myself, lol. Thanks everyone for all your input & encouragement or I probably would never have pursued this & just done without turnouts. Now I feel like a serious model railroader who finally knows what he's doing??? ;-)


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> My layout was inherited as an old, all brass layout. I have replaced some of the track with nickel-silver. If I keep the brass polished, I don't see much difference in speed between them. BUT, I am using DC. DCC may be another story -- I don't know -- I am clueless on DCC.
> 
> Before nickel-silver track became common, brass was advertised as better than steel. If you have any steel track, get rid of it.


Oh yeah, I tossed all my old steel rail long ago!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

MtRR75 said:


> My layout was inherited as an old, all brass layout. I have replaced some of the track with nickel-silver. If I keep the brass polished, I don't see much difference in speed between them. BUT, I am using DC. DCC may be another story -- I don't know -- I am clueless on DCC.
> 
> Before nickel-silver track became common, brass was advertised as better than steel. If you have any steel track, get rid of it.


DCC doesn't care what kind of material your track is made of, but it does
need good clean conductive surfaces so the loco doesn't lose power.
The complaint on brass track is that it needs more cleaning than
N/S.

Don


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

The steel track I use to have was pretty old & looked it as well. Much of it was covered with black tarnish marks & none of it had a shine any longer so I just figured it saw better days & away it went to the trash man. I might have only had one full box, maybe the size of a breadbox so, it wasn't like I tossed tons of it out.

I'm just wondering now if I can repair these tweaked turnouts or if I should just toss them in a box for parts for repairs later down the road should I need to make some repairs. I've always set them up to be manual use anyway & somewhere I have a box of all the power sections of the turnouts I never used. I don't think those would be worth much do any of you? If anyone is interested in them, I'm sure we can work it out cuz I will never go power on any of my turnouts... I like the little manual throws by Caboose Industries! That's part of the fun to me. ;-)


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Glad to see you got the turnout problems solved, :thumbsup: part of the reason I'm rebuilding my layout is turnouts not laying flat, so I see where you're coming from and your not the only one. 

Magic

PS: Like the new avatar. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Texas Hi-Railer said:


> The first thing I noticed when I set 8 of the turnouts on the bench all but one did not sit flat on the surface? They were all bowed on the bottom of the plastic ties & the 8th one was twisted, also not sitting flat on the bench. Well, this is definitely a problem. It seems that I may have caused the ties to bow from tightening the screws too much to hold the track down causing the plastic rails to bow. Well, that would cause the rails to bow-in which would explain the derailments! I've always been a stickler for my track being well mounted & it seems I may have gone overboard on my turnouts?
> 
> You see, I don't just use the tiny factory holes in the plastic ties to pound those tiny nails in, rather I've always used tiny screws & drilling more holes in the plastic ties to make sure my track was perfectly mounted flat. I put a screw like every 6" on the flex-track & plenty on turnouts, crossings, etc. Looks like I may have been over-doing it a bit, lol.


You did not need that many screws, but the extra ones should not cause any problems. You are correct that tightening the screws too much can cause warping of the ties and shifting of the rails. The only thing I can think of is to try and bend them back to level. How? I have an idea which may or may not work.

Flip the turnout over on a flat wooden board. Get some longer screws of the same diameter and pitch as the short ones you used before. Screw them in from the bottom through the tie and into the wood until they get snug. Then tighten them a little more. Then get a hair drier and heat the ties with it. Keep adding a little more twist and more heat. If you get the ties back to level without breaking them, let the assembly sit for at least a day before removing the screws. Don't know if this will work, but it is worth a try to save a turnout.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

all my turnouts [except for one #4] are atlas custom line #6, and have worked well, before installation the only prep work that was done was to hard wire the stock rails to the point rails so that they did not solely rely on firm physical contact for power feed, none of the frogs are live but work acceptably with short old time steam locos.. after installation the only change was to add thin [i think 0.012] styrene shims in the narrow end of the frog .. i use [mostly] intermountain metal wheelsets and like the ckickety clack, but didn't care for the clunk when they dropped down a bit at the narrow end of the frog ..i did have other brands [and codes] of turnouts but atlas was the only one where i had enough of one brand / style to do all the turnouts .. i remember that the shinohara were much better looking but after checking prices i just used what i had lots of ..


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Texas Hi-Railer said:


> You see, I don't just use the tiny factory holes in the plastic ties to pound those tiny nails in, rather I've always used tiny screws & drilling more holes in the plastic ties to make sure my track was perfectly mounted flat. I put a screw like every 6" on the flex-track & plenty on turnouts, crossings, etc. Looks like I may have been over-doing it a bit, lol.


One other idea came to mind. If the only ties that are bent are those that you screwed down, and the other ties are still in good shape, try cutting out all of the bent ties. Then see if you can flatten out the turnouts. If this works, then mount the turnouts using new holes in the remaining ties. Then remove some ties from an unwanted piece of track. Trim off the little bumps that hold onto the rail. Then slide the ties under the track in place of the removed ties and glue them to the roadbed. The replacement ties will not hold the rails in spec, but they will support the weight. I suggest that you glue the ties down with diluted white glue. That makes it easy to remove them if necessary -- just soak them in a few drops of water and wait a few minutes.


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## Texas Hi-Railer (Jan 28, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> One other idea came to mind. If the only ties that are bent are those that you screwed down, and the other ties are still in good shape, try cutting out all of the bent ties. Then see if you can flatten out the turnouts. If this works, then mount the turnouts using new holes in the remaining ties. Then remove some ties from an unwanted piece of track. Trim off the little bumps that hold onto the rail. Then slide the ties under the track in place of the removed ties and glue them to the roadbed. The replacement ties will not hold the rails in spec, but they will support the weight. I suggest that you glue the ties down with diluted white glue. That makes it easy to remove them if necessary -- just soak them in a few drops of water and wait a few minutes.


I like both of your posts with those ideas & I think I'm going to try those before sacking the turnouts. I have the 4 new ones I just used the other night & I have about 8 more NOS Atlas Custom-Line (which are actually my favorites) turnouts that I'm going to use as well & now that I know where I was going wrong, it's going to be a lot more fun now!

Yes, I think I'm going to just glue the turnouts down this time without nails or screws & see how that works first & if need be, I'll add a few screws but be extra careful this time when I tighten them down. No more tweaking turnouts because they're too darn expensive!

I'm like wvgca where I really like the Atlas Custom-Line turnouts because they're really well made, especially the older ones. The Peco turnouts are nice too but, I only have 4 of those left still new & I want to be sure I've got it down this time before I damage those! Once I see I finally got it, I'll use all the new ones fist, then the older ones that have been redone. I think your ideas will work so I'm definitely going to give those a shot!


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