# American Flyer 24425 Bangor & Aroostook refrigerator car with ATC symbol



## Train Girl

Hello everyone... I am wondering if anyone has seen the American Flyer 24425 car with an ATC symbol on the side... it says Accurate Temperature Control... the cars I see online do not have this emblem..;. appreciate some feedback... thank you so much... your input is much appreciated... Train Girl


----------



## flyernut

Sorry I can't help but welcome!!!


----------



## mopac

I don't know of the car. Never seen it.
Gilbert did make variations. A pic would help,
I think you need 5 posts before you can post a pic.


----------



## Train Girl

flyernut said:


> Sorry I can't help but welcome!!!





flyernut said:


> Sorry I can't help but welcome!!!


Thank you so much for the welcome...smile...


----------



## Train Girl

mopac said:


> I don't know of the car. Never seen it.
> Gilbert did make variations. A pic would help,
> I think you need 5 posts before you can post a pic.


Thank you for posting... smile... will see if I can post photo... appreciate any thoughts...notice that when I look for same car online, none of them seem to have the ATC symbol...


----------



## alaft61ri

Cant help but welcome i am new kind of all most a year these guys ar really good . they will help and lots of knowledge. 

Al


----------



## AmFlyer

Train Girl, welcome to the MTF! Unfortunately my 24425 is somewhere in storage and not as easy to locate as I wish. I have one NIB and it is the plastic box as you pictured. I do not recall seeing the ATC symbol on it. For comparison here is the re release By Lionel of the 24425 that is on my layout. Note it does not have the ATC symbol. In my experience the Lionel rereleases of these high value Gilbert cars were accurately decorated. That leads me to think the ATC symbol was not on the general run of these cars. Were that a factory production line stamp I think it would have been brighter with better definition consistent with all the other stamps on your car which appears to be in new condition.


----------



## AmFlyer

I did some additional looking through the old reference books. The 24425 is pictured in three of them and the source is three different collections so the pictures are not of the same car. They are Volume I of the Greenberg guide, the Doyle Guide and the Bubek/Garrigues Rarity Guide. Its rarity is 4+, which means it is rare. None of the three cars has that additional stamp. There were at least two production runs of the 24425, one with KC's and one with Pikemaster trucks/couplers. Both styles are documented w/o the ATC stamp. It is unlikely based on a 4+rarity that more than two runs were made. Assuming the stamping was done by Gilbert it would likely be a preproduction sample. Not sure about 1960 but in earlier years Gilbert would make 12 of these after a hand decorated sample or two for approval of the design was completed. Not sure there is a definitive way to be sure at this point.


----------



## mopac

I like the car. Not one in my stable.


----------



## AmFlyer

Mopac, I bet you could find a 48316 version from Lionel (the one I posted) for $4.99 plus shipping! You seem to be good at that. There are no 1960 originals at that price. You do not want to know what my original, new in the Kleerpack Box cost.


----------



## mopac

I have seen the Lionel version. I bet your original was in the 200.00 range.
Being NIB maybe more.


----------



## AmFlyer

Not even close! Just the original Kleerpack box with the correct ends for that car can sell for $150.


----------



## AmFlyer

I bought it at the 2002 Fall York from Gary and Laura, the purveyors of NOS Gilbert items for $650. I decided this was the one. On the other hand I have never seen another one in new condition in an unopened box. I also bought the LN condition 500 series silver passenger cars at the same time from them as well. I posted pictures of the passenger cars about three months ago. I must have left my common sense at home that trip to York.


----------



## mopac

LOL, you didn't leave your wallet. I was way off on that car. But it is a very cool car.
I hope you carry some heavy insurance on your collection.

I do not have a single original Gilbert car in anywhere near new condition.
LOL, I do have some Lionel new cars. Some I have paid as high as 14.99 for. LOL.


----------



## AmFlyer

Mopac the 24425 BAR Reefer is a rare and sought after car. The fact that it was packaged in a Kleerpack for separate sale makes them even more valuable. I apologize for the earlier typo, the price was $630. I did not need my wallet, my wife was with me so she paid for the purchases while I went on to the next table. Did I point out it is red?


----------



## AFGP9

To be honest, I have never heard of this 24425 before now. In all the shows in all the years I have gone to countless train shows, I never saw one. Tom if your friends Gary and Laura were the people I met at the Milwaukee S Fest I attended years back with all those NIB boxed cars on 4 8' tables, they may have had one and I just didn't notice. I do remember there were Kleerpacks displayed. On the other hand, had I seen one I doubt I would have paid that price. My other BAR Reefers don't need that high priced of a companion. I checked my handy dandy copy of David Doyle's American Flyer Trains and the one shown there has no ATC marking on it. The Gilbert Gallery 24425 shown has no ATC marking on it either. It is listed as a 1960.

The new Greenberg American Flyer 1946-2021 Pocket Price Guide has that 24425 listed as a 1960 also. The listed value for the KC car is $620. The Pike Master is listed as $473. In the 1946-2019 price guide the 24425 is listed at $639 for the KC but the Pike Master was the same price. That car has held it's value. 
I just got this price guide. It is printed on cheaper paper than the old ones were and not as thick. I haven't taken time to see what's missing. 

Tom it looks like your answer to the ATC marking sounds logical and makes sense. By the way, where did you find a wife that pays for your train purchases? My late wife offered to pay for something I found at the Indianapolis Fair Grounds show one year. I said no, that wasn't necessary. She never offered again. 

Kenny


----------



## AmFlyer

Kenny, keep in mind the guide prices are for Ex (7) cars with no box. A 9 or 10 car in its original Kleerpack can bring up to double the guide price. I think the guide price is high, the originals dropped in value a bit when the Lionel reissue came out.
I forgot about the Gilbert Gallery, that makes four photo documented 24425's w/o the added stamp. I am going to look for mine later today, I THINK I MIGHT know where it is.
Regarding payment, in our household there is only one account so it does not matter who does the transaction, its all the same source of funds. And remember my earlier story about my wife telling John Heck we were buying his LN Circus set in the OB without even a discussion of the price.
Regarding the 24425, somewhere I have a listing of all car numbers that were sold in Kleerpacks. I believe the BAR was the only reefer sold in that style box, another reason they are expensive with the OB. Kleerpacks were only used in 1960 and 1961.


----------



## AmFlyer

Looked, it was not the 24425 but I will post what it was in the Photo of The Day Thread.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> I did some additional looking through the old reference books. The 24425 is pictured in three of them and the source is three different collections so the pictures are not of the same car. They are Volume I of the Greenberg guide, the Doyle Guide and the Bubek/Garrigues Rarity Guide. Its rarity is 4+, which means it is rare. None of the three cars has that additional stamp. There were at least two production runs of the 24425, one with KC's and one with Pikemaster trucks/couplers. Both styles are documented w/o the ATC stamp. It is unlikely based on a 4+rarity that more than two runs were made. Assuming the stamping was done by Gilbert it would likely be a preproduction sample. Not sure about 1960 but in earlier years Gilbert would make 12 of these after a hand decorated sample or two for approval of the design was completed. Not sure there is a definitive way to be sure at this point.


Hi Tom... thank you so much...smile... this car also has American Flyer and Gilbert on the bottom... actually was part of my dad's collection...long time collector... smile... I have it on ebay right now... I assumed they all had the symbol until someone asked about it... and then when I looked online... and in books my dad had... cannot find this car with a symbol...very curious about it... if someone had not asked about it... I would never have thought about it...smile... there are been quite a few different comments... and all are appreciated... trying to figure out why this one has the emblem when the others do not...am wondering if it is extremely rare...smile...any ideas? TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

Train Girl, the car is definitely a factory original Gilbert car. There is one thing I cannot tell from the picture, are those Pikemaster trucks or the sintered iron with KC trucks. If it has KC's then there is a possibility it is one of the factory pre production cars, if they had the ATC stamp on them. If the car has Pikemaster trucks then my opinion is the stamp was added after production. I am leaning toward a post purchase modification because the stamp is not centered between the vertical rows of rivets like the other stampings and it is fainter than the others.
Too bad Gilbert did not put that stamp on all the 24425's.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> I did some additional looking through the old reference books. The 24425 is pictured in three of them and the source is three different collections so the pictures are not of the same car. They are Volume I of the Greenberg guide, the Doyle Guide and the Bubek/Garrigues Rarity Guide. Its rarity is 4+, which means it is rare. None of the three cars has that additional stamp. There were at least two production runs of the 24425, one with KC's and one with Pikemaster trucks/couplers. Both styles are documented w/o the ATC stamp. It is unlikely based on a 4+rarity that more than two runs were made. Assuming the stamping was done by Gilbert it would likely be a preproduction sample. Not sure about 1960 but in earlier years Gilbert would make 12 of these after a hand decorated sample or two for approval of the design was completed. Not sure there is a definitive way to be sure at this point.
> 
> 
> Train Girl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Tom... thank you so much...smile... this car also has American Flyer and Gilbert on the bottom... actually was part of my dad's collection...long time collector... smile... I have it on ebay right now... I assumed they all had the symbol until someone asked about it... and then when I looked online... and in books my dad had... cannot find this car with a symbol...very curious about it... if someone had not asked about it... I would never have thought about it...smile... there are been quite a few different comments... and all are appreciated... trying to figure out why this one has the emblem when the others do not...am wondering if it is extremely rare...smile...any ideas? TrainGirl
> 
> 
> 
> I am rereading your posts...both of them...smile... have pulled from ebay as want to find out more...smile...thank you...TrainGirl...
Click to expand...


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, the car is definitely a factory original Gilbert car. There is one thing I cannot tell from the picture, are those Pikemaster trucks or the sintered iron with KC trucks. If it has KC's then there is a possibility it is one of the factory pre production cars, if they had the ATC stamp on them. If the car has Pikemaster trucks then my opinion is the stamp was added after production. I am leaning toward a post purchase modification because the stamp is not centered between the vertical rows of rivets like the other stampings and it is fainter than the others.
> Too bad Gilbert did not put that stamp on all the 24425's.


Thank you so much for the information Tom...smile... it has the KC's...how would we find out more to authenticate? do not know that is the word...smile...that it was pre-production? appreciate your thoughts and help on this...smile...it is much appreciated...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

TrainGirl, I did one more thing. I opened your picture on my large iPad and blew up the picture on it. The ATC is definitely a stamp, not a decal and the trucks look like KC's. I find it hard to believe someone found this stamp and used it on the car and got results this good. Stamping at home is almost impossible to do right. I wish I could be definitive but I have never heard of this before and its too good to be done by most owners.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, the car is definitely a factory original Gilbert car. There is one thing I cannot tell from the picture, are those Pikemaster trucks or the sintered iron with KC trucks. If it has KC's then there is a possibility it is one of the factory pre production cars, if they had the ATC stamp on them. If the car has Pikemaster trucks then my opinion is the stamp was added after production. I am leaning toward a post purchase modification because the stamp is not centered between the vertical rows of rivets like the other stampings and it is fainter than the others.
> Too bad Gilbert did not put that stamp on all the 24425's.


Hi Tom... they are KC's... is there a way to do research on this to find out more about what you just mentioned? appreciate your insight...smile...thank you...TrainGirl


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> TrainGirl, I did one more thing. I opened your picture on my large iPad and blew up the picture on it. The ATC is definitely a stamp, not a decal and the trucks look like KC's. I find it hard to believe someone found this stamp and used it on the car and got results this good. Stamping at home is almost impossible to do right. I wish I could be definitive but I have never heard of this before and its too good to be done by most owners.


Hmmm...interesting... I agree think it would be difficult for someone to do... so what are your thoughts?? thank you...TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

Train Girl, there are long time Gilbert collectors who are more knowledgeable than I am on obscure variations. One that comes to mind is Bob Bubeck, the coauthor of the S Gauge price and rarity guide. Bob does not post here but does once in a while in the S gauge section of The OGR Forum. Were this my car I would ask Bob but not post it on OGR. What happens over there is a bunch of O gauge "experts" who never held a Gilbert car try to be helpful and the info gets lost in the noise. You could email Bob directly, hes screen email is [email protected]


----------



## AFGP9

AmFlyer said:


> Kenny, keep in mind the guide prices are for Ex (7) cars with no box. A 9 or 10 car in its original Kleerpack can bring up to double the guide price. I think the guide price is high, the originals dropped in value a bit when the Lionel reissue came out.
> I forgot about the Gilbert Gallery, that makes four photo documented 24425's w/o the added stamp. I am going to look for mine later today, I THINK I MIGHT know where it is.
> Regarding payment, in our household there is only one account so it does not matter who does the transaction, its all the same source of funds. And remember my earlier story about my wife telling John Heck we were buying his LN Circus set in the OB without even a discussion of the price.
> Regarding the 24425, somewhere I have a listing of all car numbers that were sold in Kleerpacks. I believe the BAR was the only reefer sold in that style box, another reason they are expensive with the OB. Kleerpacks were only used in 1960 and 1961.


Tom I recall that in an issue of S Gaugian, who knows how long ago, Don Heimburger ran an article about those Klearpack cars. I have every issue of that publication so maybe I can find it. The only problem there is finding the time. After reading that article, I kept an eye out for them when attending bigger shows. I remember seeing a few at Du Page but more so at the Tinley Park S Fests and at the few Milwaukee S Fest I attended not to mention the November show near St Louis. I don't remember when that was since it was so long ago. My point is, I do know of them and very quickly realized I probably wouldn't be buying them. I just never paid attention as to what cars were in that Klearpack series.
I never take any price as gospel in those price guides. As the name implies, they are "price guides". Yes I do know those values are for "Exc" items. It has always been my practice to add the "Good" figure and the "Exc" value and divide by 2. In this case, the "Good" is $175 and "Exc" value is $620, divided by 2 and now the value comes to $379.50 w/o a box of course. At train shows my method has worked most of the time. As we know, any NIB item is always higher but at least I have a starting value point. The few NIB cars I have were all purchased at or pretty near the Guide's "Exc" 7 number.
Once again it looks like your investigative methods have paid off with a logical explanation regarding that ATC stamping. 

Kenny


----------



## AmFlyer

I do not have an original Keystone, just the Lionel reissue. I have two crates that have "high value" items supposedly in them. I found one of those but the BAR was not in it. The other one is not where I thought it was. I have 75 storage crates for the Gilbert items plus a large number of items too big for the crates. About half are on racks up against the ceiling of the 11' garage bays. The other half are in the house attic in a large floored storage area with sloped ceilings. Invariably I need to remove four crates to access one at the back or bottom. It is not fun. I know it is not lost, just elusive. Also some of the storage crates in the garage require two people to lift out and lower because of the 11' height and the weight. Unless my son comes up from San Diego all I can do is work around those.
I was originally thinking that article was in CTT or the Train Collectors Quarterly. You could be right that it was the S Gaugian. Let me know if you find it.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, there are long time Gilbert collectors who are more knowledgeable than I am on obscure variations. One that comes to mind is Bob Bubeck, the coauthor of the S Gauge price and rarity guide. Bob does not post here but does once in a while in the S gauge section of The OGR Forum. Were this my car I would ask Bob but not post it on OGR. What happens over there is a bunch of O gauge "experts" who never held a Gilbert car try to be helpful and the info gets lost in the noise. You could email Bob directly, hes screen email is [email protected]


Thank you so much Tom...smile...it is so much appreciated...have a wonderful weekend and take care...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

TaDaaa!!! Tom’s 24425 has reappeared after decades in secure storage! Note it does not have an ATC stamp and it is an early KC version.
I will post more over in the Photo of the Day.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> TaDaaa!!! Tom’s 24425 has reappeared after decades in secure storage! Note it does not have an ATC stamp and it is an early KC version.
> I will post more over in the Photo of the Day.
> 
> 
> View attachment 546164


How nice of you to get yours out...smile... it looks like it is in wonderful condition...smile....


----------



## AFGP9

AmFlyer said:


> TaDaaa!!! Tom’s 24425 has reappeared after decades in secure storage! Note it does not have an ATC stamp and it is an early KC version.
> I will post more over in the Photo of the Day.
> 
> It looks like the misplaced has been found. Nice 24425 Tom. After the description of how you have your collection stored I didn't expect you would find it for years.
> 
> Kenny
> 
> View attachment 546164


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, there are long time Gilbert collectors who are more knowledgeable than I am on obscure variations. One that comes to mind is Bob Bubeck, the coauthor of the S Gauge price and rarity guide. Bob does not post here but does once in a while in the S gauge section of The OGR Forum. Were this my car I would ask Bob but not post it on OGR. What happens over there is a bunch of O gauge "experts" who never held a Gilbert car try to be helpful and the info gets lost in the noise. You could email Bob directly, hes screen email is [email protected]


Hi Tom... I wanted to thank you so much for Bob's info... He was kind enough to respond... his thought was that it is early production and the ATC stamping was deleted to save a step and reduce costs slightly for the subsequent 24425's made and sold by Gilbert.... so now of course I wonder how that affects value...smile...thoughts??...or how would I find out? is there a formula for unusual items?...smile... I also would like to say that I have found this forum enlightening about trains...smile... I may visit here often...smile...it has been fun...smile... TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

Train Girl, we hope you continue to contribute to the MTF. I think Bob's opinion is plausible given the pictures you posted. I have another person in mind who maybe could corroborate Bob's view on the car. I will post tomorrow if I have contact info. Without some kind of independent authenticity it might be worth 10% more. If there is a way some respected collectors can authenticate the car as factory then it could be as much as 10X the standard car. If any one of the top collectors or researchers had seen a car with this stamp I would expected it to be listed in the guides as "NRS". (No reported Sale)


----------



## AFGP9

Train Girl, however your 24425 and the ATC stamping came to be, it has made for a most intriguing story. It just proves once again that Gilbert did a lot of odd, unexplained production changes with no recorded reasons found. 

Kenny


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, we hope you continue to contribute to the MTF. I think Bob's opinion is plausible given the pictures you posted. I have another person in mind who maybe could corroborate Bob's view on the car. I will post tomorrow if I have contact info. Without some kind of independent authenticity it might be worth 10% more. If there is a way some respected collectors can authenticate the car as factory then it could be as much as 10X the standard car. If any one of the top collectors or researchers had seen a car with this stamp I would expected it to be listed in the guides as "NRS". (No reported Sale)


Thank you so much Tom...smile... it is much appreciated....smile...TrainGirl


----------



## Train Girl

AFGP9 said:


> Train Girl, however your 24425 and the ATC stamping came to be, it has made for a most intriguing story. It just proves once again that Gilbert did a lot of odd, unexplained production changes with no recorded reasons found.
> 
> Kenny


Thank you for your comment Kenny...smile... I just assumed they were all the same until someone asked about the emblem...so interesting...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## AFGP9

I hope you will continue to contribute to the forum. I'm pretty sure most would welcome a female contributor since most AF train collectors are guys. Most unusual to meet a female collector. Please share with the members your back ground in collecting American Flyer, what pieces you have, and your opinions. We are a friendly bunch and always willing to help a fellow Gilbert American Flyer collector. 

Kenny


----------



## AmFlyer

Train Girl, it turns out I do not have an email for Joe Deger, the person I thing might have some thoughts on this. He is the author of many of the S gauge reference books. I am working on a way to get his contact info. Unfortunately I think it will not lead to a decisive answer. If Joe had seen or heard about one of these he would have listed it in one of the books as a known variation with "no reported sale" after it.
If you have any information that supports the provenance of the car as original Gilbert that would be your best option. An original sales receipt or a statement from your dad of where and when he purchased it would help.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, it turns out I do not have an email for Joe Deger, the person I thing might have some thoughts on this. He is the author of many of the S gauge reference books. I am working on a way to get his contact info. Unfortunately I think it will not lead to a decisive answer. If Joe had seen or heard about one of these he would have listed it in one of the books as a known variation with "no reported sale" after it.
> If you have any information that supports the provenance of the car as original Gilbert that would be your best option. An original sales receipt or a statement from your dad of where and when he purchased it would help.


Thank you so much Tom...smile... I will check with my brother...smile...and let you know if we have more info on this car... and appreciate his name... if it is that unusual... would like to have more info on it...maybe it belongs in a special place... or at least some of the train places like GilbertGallery.org (have seen their site) might be interested in at least knowing about it...smile... if you happen to get info on Joe mentioned above... appreciate you letting me know...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## Train Girl

AFGP9 said:


> I hope you will continue to contribute to the forum. I'm pretty sure most would welcome a female contributor since most AF train collectors are guys. Most unusual to meet a female collector. Please share with the members your back ground in collecting American Flyer, what pieces you have, and your opinions. We are a friendly bunch and always willing to help a fellow Gilbert American Flyer collector.
> 
> Kenny


Hi Kenny...thank you for your message...smile... I guess I am a inherited collector...smile...my dad started collecting when I was 9 (I am a senior now...smile...) when my grandmother purchased an American Flyer train for us to go around our Christmas Tree...think it was called the Bullet?...and that it was silver... do not really remember... we had a train board under my dad's tree until my mom started going downhill...anyway, my dad liked to tinker... and started collecting...he loved American Flyer and Gilbert...smile... I have 3 brothers... all great guys... my brothers of course have more knowledge than I about trains... even though we grew up around trains, we do not have the knowledge my dad had... wish I could ask my dad questions...smile...although I know he is with me and watching over me...so is my mom...smile...anyway, he collected until my mom started going downhill...they used to go around to all of the train shows around the country...smile...am guessing 50 to 60 years... I am the eBay Girl who lists items to sell...smile... we decided to sell his collection online to honor him and his legacy... so I am sure I will have lots more questions... he was a long time and very large collector in my area...smile... probably more than you really wanted to know...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## Train Girl

Train Girl said:


> Hi Kenny...thank you for your message...smile... I guess I am a inherited collector...smile...my dad started collecting when I was 9 (I am a senior now...smile...) when my grandmother purchased an American Flyer train for us to go around our Christmas Tree...think it was called the Bullet?...and that it was silver... do not really remember... we had a train board under my dad's tree until my mom started going downhill...anyway, my dad liked to tinker... and started collecting...he loved American Flyer and Gilbert...smile... I have 3 brothers... all great guys... my brothers of course have more knowledge than I about trains... even though we grew up around trains, we do not have the knowledge my dad had... wish I could ask my dad questions...smile...although I know he is with me and watching over me...so is my mom...smile...anyway, he collected until my mom started going downhill...they used to go around to all of the train shows around the country...smile...am guessing 50 to 60 years... I am the eBay Girl who lists items to sell...smile... we decided to sell his collection online to honor him and his legacy... so I am sure I will have lots more questions... he was a long time and very large collector in my area...smile... probably more than you really wanted to know...smile...TrainGirl


I might add that even though I am a girl...I have always loved trains and if you are traveling and see a gal alongside the road taking a photo of a train it might be me...smile..this one was taken when I was in the Mt Rushmore Crazy Horse area recently...smile...probably more than you would like to know...smile...


----------



## AFGP9

Train Girl said:


> Hi Kenny...thank you for your message...smile... I guess I am a inherited collector...smile...my dad started collecting when I was 9 (I am a senior now...smile...) when my grandmother purchased an American Flyer train for us to go around our Christmas Tree...think it was called the Bullet?...and that it was silver... do not really remember... we had a train board under my dad's tree until my mom started going downhill...anyway, my dad liked to tinker... and started collecting...he loved American Flyer and Gilbert...smile... I have 3 brothers... all great guys... my brothers of course have more knowledge than I about trains... even though we grew up around trains, we do not have the knowledge my dad had... wish I could ask my dad questions...smile...although I know he is with me and watching over me...so is my mom...smile...anyway, he collected until my mom started going downhill...they used to go around to all of the train shows around the country...smile...am guessing 50 to 60 years... I am the eBay Girl who lists items to sell...smile... we decided to sell his collection online to honor him and his legacy... so I am sure I will have lots more questions... he was a long time and very large collector in my area...smile... probably more than you really wanted to know...smile...TrainGirl


I have seen eBay sales postings from a lady. Sounds like it is you. Don't you want to keep part of the collection for yourself if for no other reason than as a reminder and memory? Of course the #1 thing I would keep is that special 24455 car. You could keep an engine, a few of the best cars and the best caboose and some track. Maybe a couple accessories and buildings. That way you could at least set up a Christmas scene. That would be a nice memory. The best thing though would be able to assemble a set as Gilbert sold it. If there are any old catalogs from the 50's for KC cars or from the late 40's to early 50's for link cars, you could look there for a picture of a set and set number to find the components and check to see if you have the correct engine and cars to assemble a set. If you don't have any catalogs, they are on eBay but aren't cheap. Just buy the one that matches what you have in the collection. 

Nice picture of the BNSF 9006. 

Kenny


----------



## AmFlyer

Train Girl, your memory is good. There were several Silver Bullet sets. The link coupler 356 was made in 1953 and is chrome plated. The knuckle coupler 354 was made in 1954 and is silver painted.
Let me know if your brothers can remember any details about the purchase or timing of the purchase for the 24455.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, your memory is good. There were several Silver Bullet sets. The link coupler 356 was made in 1953 and is chrome plated. The knuckle coupler 354 was made in 1954 and is silver painted.
> Let me know if your brothers can remember any details about the purchase or timing of the purchase for the 24455.


I will have to ask my brothers...smile... they might say it was a totally different set around the tree...smile... but will and let you know... 24455? you mean the 24425...smile... will let you know...smile...


----------



## Train Girl

AFGP9 said:


> I have seen eBay sales postings from a lady. Sounds like it is you. Don't you want to keep part of the collection for yourself if for no other reason than as a reminder and memory? Of course the #1 thing I would keep is that special 24455 car. You could keep an engine, a few of the best cars and the best caboose and some track. Maybe a couple accessories and buildings. That way you could at least set up a Christmas scene. That would be a nice memory. The best thing though would be able to assemble a set as Gilbert sold it. If there are any old catalogs from the 50's for KC cars or from the late 40's to early 50's for link cars, you could look there for a picture of a set and set number to find the components and check to see if you have the correct engine and cars to assemble a set. If you don't have any catalogs, they are on eBay but aren't cheap. Just buy the one that matches what you have in the collection.
> 
> Nice picture of the BNSF 9006.
> 
> Kenny


Thank you for the thoughts Kenny...smile... we all have taken a few things home... am sure there will be more...smile...my dad put a set together for me years ago...not an expensive one...smile...which I have boxed up someplace...smile... I do have lots of old catalogs...I am totally amazed at all of the good train stuff we have...smile...and thanks for the compliment on the BNSF... after I posted I wondered if it was okay to post photos that were not model train related...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## mopac

Seeing pics of the 24425 car made me want one. LOL, I always want what the big boys on the forum have.
I won't pay 600.00 for one, but I will pay 18.57 for a reproduction. Got one on ebay tonight. LN condition with
LN box. Not a 24425 but a 29425. Looks just like a real one. Sweet looking car. will show pics when I get it.


----------



## AmFlyer

That is less than I paid for my 29425. Mopac, you have the right touch to find all these ebay bargains.


----------



## mopac

I spend too much time cruising ebay. Its a nice looking car. I knew you had one. I bought it from trainz. They are usually
high on stuff, I bought 3 cars. Also got 2 covered hoppers. Again LN. B&O and a NKP. 6 something for the B&O and
10 something for the NKP. Trainz shipping is high but his combine shipping for the 3 items was not terrible. 6 bucks each on shipping. I have a few LIONEL cars coming. Can't remember what it is but I won a new one for 2 something. I am a sucker for cheap.


----------



## AFGP9

mopac, whatever you are doing on eBay and getting these bargains that turn out to be nice cars, keep doing it. That wouldn't be my result based on my history. I admit to not being an eBay regular cruiser. When the mood strikes or when I want to see what a particular item is selling for I will check, then will search around. I would never buy a locomotive from Trainz because I have noticed they grade theirs way too high. They will describe the locomotives then list several defects then give the item a TCA rating way of 6 or 7. Their most annoying words are "does not run" after describing other defects. Of course the selling price reflects the grading. To their credit, they do post good pictures of the item so you can see the condition. 

Kenny


----------



## flyernut

AFGP9 said:


> mopac, whatever you are doing on eBay and getting these bargains that turn out to be nice cars, keep doing it. That wouldn't be my result based on my history. I admit to not being an eBay regular cruiser. When the mood strikes or when I want to see what a particular item is selling for I will check, then will search around. I would never buy a locomotive from Trainz because I have noticed they grade theirs way too high. They will describe the locomotives then list several defects then give the item a TCA rating way of 6 or 7. Their most annoying words are "does not run" after describing other defects. Of course the selling price reflects the grading. To their credit, they do post good pictures of the item so you can see the condition.
> 
> Kenny


Got to be careful of Trainz.


----------



## mopac

I do not like their grading either. Probably would not buy an engine from them.
I think these Lionel cars will be fine.


----------



## AFGP9

It seems most of the time Trainz's cars sell at a decent price on Buy It Now sales. Never having bought any from them I can't attest to the accuracy of their description versus the asking price and grading. Mopac, I hope you get good cars. 

Kenny


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, your memory is good. There were several Silver Bullet sets. The link coupler 356 was made in 1953 and is chrome plated. The knuckle coupler 354 was made in 1954 and is silver painted.
> Let me know if your brothers can remember any details about the purchase or timing of the purchase for the 24455.


Hi Tom... checked with my brothers...they remember running mostly a Santa Fe with Blue and Yellow Stripes... and it looks like we have a handful of Silver Bullets...although do not know which one was the one I thought my grandmother purchased...and my brothers are younger and have no memory...smile... have been looking for more info on the 24425...smile...


----------



## AmFlyer

The blue and yellow Santa Fe diesels are on many collectors lists. The three digit versions run better but the 5 digit versions are sought after by collectors.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> The blue and yellow Santa Fe diesels are on many collectors lists. The three digit versions run better but the 5 digit versions are sought after by collectors.


Thank you so much for that information... is so good to know...will let me brother know...smile... I have another question related to the 24425 and the ATC (Accurate Temperature Control ) symbol... are you aware that any of the railroads used this symbol? or is anyone out there...all you train guys...smile... appreciate some insight... I tried googling and did not really see anything...seems like AF used symbols and such that were in use somewhere...smile...appreciate any thoughts...smile... have a wonderful day...


----------



## Train Girl

Train Girl said:


> Thank you so much for that information... is so good to know...will let me brother know...smile... I have another question related to the 24425 and the ATC (Accurate Temperature Control ) symbol... are you aware that any of the railroads used this symbol? or is anyone out there...all you train guys...smile... appreciate some insight... I tried googling and did not really see anything...seems like AF used symbols and such that were in use somewhere...smile...appreciate any thoughts...smile... have a wonderful day...


I forgot to mention that I have the 21910/21910-1/21910-2 on ebay right now...smile...


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> The blue and yellow Santa Fe diesels are on many collectors lists. The three digit versions run better but the 5 digit versions are sought after by collectors.


We actually have a 21910/21910-1/21910-2 on eBay right now... blue with gold stripe if I remember...smile... is interesting that the 3 digit ones would run better and yet the 55 digit are more sought after...smile... maybe they are more rare?? not as plentiful I should say??


----------



## AmFlyer

I have never noticed that ATC mark on any reefer but I am not a student of the prototype. I can say I have never seen that mark on any model of the red BAR reefer in any scale.
The 5 digit 21910 3 engine set is more rare than the 3 digit predecessor. The difference in operation would be a 2 position vs 4 position reverse unit.


----------



## AmFlyer

I searched for the listing but only found some 3 digit listings.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> I searched for the listing but only found some 3 digit listings.


Not sure how to post...smile... was incorrect on coloring...blue and gold though...smile... here is the link if that helps...smile... if you are interesting in looking at it...smile...https://www.ebay.com/itm/184415848479


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> I have never noticed that ATC mark on any reefer but I am not a student of the prototype. I can say I have never seen that mark on any model of the red BAR reefer in any scale.
> The 5 digit 21910 3 engine set is more rare than the 3 digit predecessor. The difference in operation would be a 2 position vs 4 position reverse unit.


Thank you for the info...smile...hope you do not mind all my questions...smile... have to wonder if there were any real railroads that had that emblem... like BNSE? have no idea what railroads were around back when the 24425 car was made...? will let me brother know about the difference on the 21910 set...smile... your input is greatly appreciaed...have a good evening...smile...


----------



## Train Girl

Train Girl said:


> Thank you for the info...smile...hope you do not mind all my questions...smile... have to wonder if there were any real railroads that had that emblem... like BNSE? have no idea what railroads were around back when the 24425 car was made...? will let me brother know about the difference on the 21910 set...smile... your input is greatly appreciaed...have a good evening...smile...


Hi Tom… thank you for providing Joe’s name… and thank you for your valuable information and thoughts…smile… I reached out to the librarian at the TCA who was kind enough to contact him for me… he was not familiar with an ATC symbol on the 24425 car or on any Gilbert car. Looking at the picture, he thought it appeared to be a production run car (all lettering clear and sharp, paper label, etc.) Without seeing the car and being able to study the symbol, it would be hard to tell from a picture if it was painted on as the rest of the lettering or applied later. He did not see any decal film around the symbol when he looked at the picture, but it could possibly be a dry transfer that was added later by an owner of the car. He said that one way to tell if the ATC symbol is dry transfer is to lightly run your finger over the symbol. A dry transfer will be slightly raised (you can feel the ridges of the lettering) whereas the paint (or heat-stamped lettering would not be slightly raised. You would not be able to feel any ridges of lettering if it is painted or heat-stamped. He was of the opinion that Gilbert would have only used a symbol such as this on a car if it was used and recognized in the railroad world.

This weekend I met with a couple of family members and we have mixed feelings… I think it feels slightly different but not necessarily raised…smile… so not sure of my next step to try to find out about this car…smile…happen to have a railroad museum in the area…thinking of checking with them…smile… hope all is well everyone…smile…TrainGirl…


----------



## AmFlyer

That was very nice of the TCA Librarian to contact Joe for you. Joe Deger and Bob Bubek are the two best collectors I can think of to ask about the originality of the stamp. I will be curious what the railroad museum might say about prototype use of that stamp. I thought the origin of the stamp could be one of the refrigeration equipment suppliers. I searched around but did not see any evidence of the logo there either. 
I am as certain as one can be that is not a dry transfer. A dry transfer would not have light and dark variations in the white markings as that car does. Plus, who would have invested in making dies to cut the dry transfers for this logo?


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> That was very nice of the TCA Librarian to contact Joe for you. Joe Deger and Bob Bubek are the two best collectors I can think of to ask about the originality of the stamp. I will be curious what the railroad museum might say about prototype use of that stamp. I thought the origin of the stamp could be one of the refrigeration equipment suppliers. I searched around but did not see any evidence of the logo there either.
> I am as certain as one can be that is not a dry transfer. A dry transfer would not have light and dark variations in the white markings as that car does. Plus, who would have invested in making dies to cut the dry transfers for this logo?


Yes, I thought it was really nice of her to contact Joe too...smile... and appreciate the names...have seen them in the books my dad had...smile...appreciate you checking some...and am very appreciative of your thoughts...smile... I also looked online some and did not really see anything...and I have no knowledge of dry transfer or heat stamp... I know what a decal is though...although have no idea of what they might look like on a car like that... I ran my finger over some of my dad's other car symbols and this car felt the same to me...smile...learning a lot though...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## mopac

Train Girl, how did you find out what A T C stood for.


----------



## AmFlyer

ATC is Automatic Temperature Control. Several manufacturers of these systems supplied them to the mechanical reefer car constructors. That is what caused me to search the system suppliers to see if one of them had trademarked the stamp on TrainGirl's 24425 . I did not find any evidence of that.


----------



## mopac

I looked around some last night also. Found nothing. I have no doubt that ATC is automatic temperature control.
I was just wondering how she came up with that.


----------



## AmFlyer

Those are the three words in the annular space of the stamping. I opened the picture on my 13" iPad then expanded the image to read it. It is fuzzy but barely legible.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> ATC is Automatic Temperature Control. Several manufacturers of these systems supplied them to the mechanical reefer car constructors. That is what caused me to search the system suppliers to see if one of them had trademarked the stamp on TrainGirl's 24425 . I did not find any evidence of that.


Such interesting info...smile... hate to ask stupid? questions as you have been so wonderful and are so knowledgeable... so mechanical reefer car constructors are companies that may have used that symbol and if they did they would have trademarked it? Geez... smile...


----------



## AmFlyer

When reefers transitioned from ice to mechanical cooling, the systems were designed and supplied to the car builders by several refrigeration firms. It was just a wild idea I had that the ATC symbol belonged to one of the manufacturers. I could not find any evidence of that.


----------



## AFGP9

I too have been looking around for the meaning of ATC and found nothing. I tried looking at some UP reefers and none had that insignia. Automatic Temperature Control makes sense to me. 

Kenny


----------



## Train Girl

Hi guys...thank you so much...smile... I have not had a chance to check with the train museum yet... and am headed out of town for a couple of weeks...smile... so would like to wish everyone a wonderful holiday weekend...be safe out there and take care...TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

Thank you, I hope you have a great trip.


----------



## Train Girl

Hi everyone... just a note to let you know I am back in town...actually back a couple of days now...smile... I did call the Train Museum in our area and they were kind enough to provide a number of someone they thought would offer some help... so will let you know when I know more on that...smile...

I have another question (this time about a 48T set and value) and am thinking it is better to start another thread? or post? or both? all of you have been great... Tom especially has been so helpful...it is much appreciated...smile...thanks you ... have a great day...TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

Welcome back! Please start a new thread for the 48T set, this thread has a lot of unique information.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Welcome back! Please start a new thread for the 48T set, this thread has a lot of unique information.


Thank you Tom...smile... I was thinking that was best...smile...hope all is well with you...smile...TrainGirl


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, the car is definitely a factory original Gilbert car. There is one thing I cannot tell from the picture, are those Pikemaster trucks or the sintered iron with KC trucks. If it has KC's then there is a possibility it is one of the factory pre production cars, if they had the ATC stamp on them. If the car has Pikemaster trucks then my opinion is the stamp was added after production. I am leaning toward a post purchase modification because the stamp is not centered between the vertical rows of rivets like the other stampings and it is fainter than the others.
> Too bad Gilbert did not put that stamp on all the 24425's.


Hi guys… with regard to the 24425 car with the ATC symbol, I wanted to update you… I had contacted one museum in the area two to three times and no one got back with me… smile… there is another smaller museum… and I took it there as it is open on weekends…smile… the gentleman there that looked at it is more of a Lionel guy… however in looking at it (he did not even take it out of the KleerPak), he was of the opinion it was not dry transfer or decal… that it was done at the factory… his suggestion was to have it TCA certified… I mentioned the value might only be 10 percent more, his thought was that it could be 100 percent more… and he really felt we should check into it…smile… so now I wonder about that process… suggestions…smile… thank you…TrainGirl


----------



## AmFlyer

I agree with him that it is an ink stamp and if it is possible to determine and certify it is factory it should at least double the value. I am not sure how someone at TCA could certify the stamp as factory. Most of these type of certifications were either done from memory by Maury Romer or by inspecting previously unopened boxes containing cars or sets. Would not hurt to ask. Easiest way may be to contact the TCA Museum/Business office and have them give you a contact.


----------



## Train Girl

AmFlyer said:


> I agree with him that it is an ink stamp and if it is possible to determine and certify it is factory it should at least double the value. I am not sure how someone at TCA could certify the stamp as factory. Most of these type of certifications were either done from memory by Maury Romer or by inspecting previously unopened boxes containing cars or sets. Would not hurt to ask. Easiest way may be to contact the TCA Museum/Business office and have them give you a contact.


Thank you...smile...


----------

