# My preliminary 4x8 HO/OO design using Peco code 100 track



## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

It's not perfectly lined up, Will it still fit together? There is still a little give in track, right? Especially straight sections? Well, tell me what you think, and if it needs some fixing.... First time using SCARM. I would love to connect the two lines, but am under the impression that I cannot run two DC trains at once if I do.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Resist the temptation to fudge the track. Small kinks in your trackwork can mean big headaches when you try to run. Use some flextrack, and you can make it work.

You are under a misapprehension here. I'm obviously not doing a good job of explaining the issues. You can freely connect the two lines in one DC layout. What you CAN'T do is run two DC trains at two different speeds at the same time. To do that, you need electrically isolated blocks with a separate DC controller for each. If you connect them, you can't make one DC and the other DCC, unless you electrically isolate them, and even then you run the risk of frying something if your train bridges the gap between the two systems.

What is your plan to operate trains? What trains will be on which tracks?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

well, you may be able to connect the two loops together, and run two seperate DC trains at the same time ... if you use an isolated joiner section, at least as long as your powered loco, say a foot or so minimum, and use insulated [plastic] joiners on both ends ... a switch [DPDT] will decide which power pack [two needed] will drive the isolated section ...if you have enough room on your layout plan for an additional piece of track to join the two loops..it's pretty tight to get more track between them


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

If you have not designed a plan before you may want to get your hands on one of the many track plan books available and go with a proven plan.

Also the position of the trailing point turnout in the lower left is really going to limit what you can use that siding for.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Resist the temptation to fudge the track. Small kinks in your trackwork can mean big headaches when you try to run. Use some flextrack, and you can make it work.
> 
> You are under a misapprehension here. I'm obviously not doing a good job of explaining the issues. You can freely connect the two lines in one DC layout. What you CAN'T do is run two DC trains at two different speeds at the same time. To do that, you need electrically isolated blocks with a separate DC controller for each. If you connect them, you can't make one DC and the other DCC, unless you electrically isolate them, and even then you run the risk of frying something if your train bridges the gap between the two systems.
> 
> What is your plan to operate trains? What trains will be on which tracks?


It has to be two independent controls. One for my son and one for myself, so that we may each drive a train together. Isolated block sounds complicated, I may not be ready for that yet, will keep it in mind for future though.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

fcwilt said:


> If you have not designed a plan before you may want to get your hands on one of the many track plan books available and go with a proven plan.
> 
> Also the position of the trailing point turnout in the lower left is really going to limit what you can use that siding for.


The siding in the lower left is not very big, but is specifically placed there for expansion. I have designed in the past, on paper, and built with my father as a child. It has been 15 years, but all the principles are there. The straights are flex track I believe, or will be when I purchase them, so the slight misalignment is of no issue. This is my first railroad design using CAD, although I have done extensive Architectural and electrical CAD in my life.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you've done electric work using cad you
understand phase (polarity), insulation and Double pole,
double throw (DPDT) switches. Nothing at all complicated about
placing plastic insulated joiners instead of the brass ones.
That way you can use 2 turnouts to connect the two ovals.
You power each oval through a DPDT switch. Thrown one
way power pack A would power that oval, thrown the other
power pack B would.

This arrangement would allow son to run one oval, you the
other, each individually controlled. But when you want to
move a train from one oval to the other you throw the
DPDTs so that both ovals are powered by the SAME 
power pack. 

Operationally, you would isolate with plastic joiners, one of the spur tracks connected
through an on/off switch. When you want to move a train
from one oval to the other, send the other train to that spur
and turn it off. Then you can move the operating train all around the
entire layout. Using only one power pack.

Your layout would give you a lot more interesting ways to
run trains wired this way.

Don


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

DonR said:


> If you've done electric work using cad you
> understand phase (polarity), insulation and Double pole,
> double throw (DPDT) switches. Nothing at all complicated about
> placing plastic insulated joiners instead of the brass ones.
> ...


Don, that makes a lot of sense actually. I will have to look into that. Thanks!


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Well, I did something unprecedented and read the instructions of SCARM. I switched all the track to flextrack and lined everything up. Saved over $200 in material by not using the straights and curves. I am changing the turnouts to the electrofrog instead of insulfrog, so I can wire them up later and control them with switches. Modified the turnout going to the dock so there was more room for water on the other side of the bridge, and showed that the sheds would be built into the mountain. Hope you all like!

Edit: Ignore the radi. They should be 20 & 22.5 radi, I will have measuring tools when I actually lay the track.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Wolferz said:


> Well, I did something unprecedented and read the instructions of SCARM. I switched all the track to flextrack and lined everything up. Saved over $200 in material by not using the straights and curves. I am changing the turnouts to the electrofrog instead of insulfrog, so I can wire them up later and control them with switches. Modified the turnout going to the dock so there was more room for water on the other side of the bridge, and showed that the sheds would be built into the mountain. Hope you all like!
> 
> Edit: Ignore the radi. They should be 20 & 22.5 radi, I will have measuring tools when I actually lay the track.


Be careful using SCARM for anything more then simple designs - it does not enforce any design rules and you can end up with a plan that cannot be easily built and/or may not perform as desired.

SCARM has one feature which seems to appeal to a lot of folk - it is free - but other then that...


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

fcwilt said:


> Be careful using SCARM for anything more then simple designs - it does not enforce any design rules and you can end up with a plan that cannot be easily built and/or may not perform as desired.
> 
> SCARM has one feature which seems to appeal to a lot of folk - it is free - but other then that...


I am sure that SCARM has a lot of features that are conducive to designing a layout properly, but I only skimmed the directions. There are track elevation tools and all sorts of things, but it is just a preliminary. I'll be able to create the layout better once I have the materials in front of me.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Wolferz said:


> I am sure that SCARM has a lot of features that are conducive to designing a layout properly


It would be nice if that were true.

If you ever have some spare time and are curious as to what a truly powerful design tool looks like you could download the trial of 3rdPlanIt.

http://www.eldoradosoft.com/index.htm

Power, as you might expect, comes at a price. For this program you really need to work through the tutorials first.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

fcwilt said:


> It would be nice if that were true.
> 
> If you ever have some spare time and are curious as to what a truly powerful design tool looks like you could download the trial of 3rdPlanIt.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the suggestion, I have xtrkCAD. I just have no clue how to use it. Using Linux, I have to be sure that the software is compatible with running inside wine. SCARM was free so worth the risk of installing. Buying a program and not knowing if everything would work is not something I am keen on doing. I can always do it the old fashion way, by hand, but wanted to give CAD a try.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

*Electrical*

I have updated the layout using flextrack and turnouts, I have decided on insulfrog points, and know how to wire the point motor, But I'v no idea how to power the point motor! Do I plug all the point motors into the positive and negative side of a dcc controller? If so, then I would need a splice before the DPDT switches to power only accessories like point motors and gates. But here is the electrical layout so far. I have to research if I can motorize the turntable and how, and how to power the point motors of the turnouts so that they will function.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Point motors require a separate power supply from DCC.
(or was that a typo, you meant DC?)

If you are, in fact, going to run DC you can
power the point motors with the accessories terminals
on the DC power packs. The type motor you will use
will determine how you would wire them.

I couldn't read your track power wiring
in the drawing. Here
is the way it should be:

Center tabs of each DPDT switch goes to the
track it is to control.

DC power pack 1 train power goes to the tabs
on one end, DC power pack 2 train power goes to
the tabs on the opposite end. Both DPDTs wired
this way. Make no connection to a DCC controller
if that is what you show in your drawing. 

If you are going to run DCC you could totally
ignore the the contents of my 8-23 3:03PM post. 

Incidentally, Peco Insulfrog turnouts are power routing.
That means the position of the points determines which
track, straight or diverting is powered. Saying this another 
way, when your turnouts are set for the main, the power
will be turned off in the dead end spur tracks.

Don


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

DonR said:


> Point motors require a separate power supply from DCC.
> (or was that a typo, you meant DC?)
> 
> If you are, in fact, going to run DC you can
> ...


Don, there are two DC and one DCC controllers, the DCC goes to one end off each of the two DPDT switches, each DC controller goes to the other end. The DPDT switches have center off. Each DPDT switch powers one mainline and all its sidings. That is how the manufacturer recommends running both DC and DCC layouts, with only one or the other being able to power the track. (Watched the tutorial video). The reason I choose insulfrog instead of electrofrog is that I did not wish to risk shorting, and the reverse polarity always of the frog seemed tedious. As I am running power through a switch to each siding with insulated connectors to the switch, the insulfrog not providing power doesn't matter. I just, a few minutes ago, talked to a Peco dealer, and he told me an accessory leg from the DCC controller could power all the point motors without any risk to the track, whichever power I am running there. Only thing left to do is figure out how to power roundtable.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Most DCC controllers do not have an 'accessory leg'.
The Peco dealer must have been thinking of your
DC power packs that do. 

Will you be using DCC stationary decoders on your turnout motors?

With them you could use the DCC power, but if you are using
twin coil turnout motors without decoders you should use the accessory terminals
of one of your DC power packs. The DCC power should be
reserved for the tracks.

You are right about how you are controlling the DCC vs DC power.
I failed to notice that you were planning to have both.

I agree that Peco Insulfrog turnouts are the best for you. You'll
have smooth running trains with few derails at turnouts.

Be sure your turntable has a built in polarity matching system, else
you may have to add a DPDT switch in it's track circuitry. Any
time a loco can turn around and go the opposite direction on
the same track there is an polarity matching problem which some
turntable makes handle.

A word of caution: Be sure to get your DC locos onto a spur or in
the roundhouse with the power off when the layout is powered
by DCC. Some do run DC locos on DCC power but it
is risky. Keep in mind the DCC track is powered at all times with a modified
AC thus the alternating polarity. You can quickly burn up a DC
motor trying to go both clockwise and counterclockwise at
the same time.

Don


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Don, I am not that familiar with the DCC controllers or the new powered accessories. The dealer may have assumed that I would use a decoder though I don't know anything about them. The point motors will probably be Peco 10e, and the turntable is Peco lk-55. I want to power it but don't know with what, or if it is powered already. All sidings will have a switch, and be insulated from the turnout. I don't want to melt my old Mantua frame motors! I do wonder though, seeing lighted carriages in videos, if my vintage DC carriages would stay lit on DCC or short out.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The Peco PL 10 E are very good twin solenoid coil
turnout motors. They should be powered by the
Accessories terminals on one of your DC power packs.
The other one's accessories terminals would be good
for powering lights and perhaps your turntable depending
on it's specifications. The Peco turntable instructions
should tell you exactly what power to use .AC or DC? Likely to use
around 12 to 14 volts.

I found this very good review of your turntable. The writer
has some helpful hints. He recommends that you
use a DC power pack's variable voltage (track). That
way you can control the speed of revolution.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,2615841

I would suggest that you power the PL10s through
a Capacitor Discharge Unit. The reason is, it it far
too easy to push a turnout button too long and burn
out a PL 10 coil. Especially with anxious kids.
The CDU prevents this. When you
push a turnout button it discharges the cap and
there is no more power to burn out a coil. When
the button is released it recharges automatically.
These are available commercially or you can build
one for about 10.00 with parts from an electronics
store.

Your DCC controller will put from 12 to 14 volts of
modified AC on the track at all times. Your lighted
passenger cars should do well with it. 

You'll like that the cars brightness will stay the
same regardless of the train speed, and they won't
go out when the train stops as they do
on a DC layout. To me it's one big advantage of DCC.

Don


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

Very helpful tips. Thanks so much!


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Wolferz said:


> There are two DC and one DCC controllers, the DCC goes to one end off each of the two DPDT switches, each DC controller goes to the other end. The DPDT switches have center off. Each DPDT switch powers one mainline and all its sidings. That is how the manufacturer recommends running both DC and DCC layouts, with only one or the other being able to power the track.


Wolfers: It may seem like I am resurrecting a very old thread, but I just saw your more recent post showing your track plan (with wiring) in the "Collection of Layouts" thread -- where we are not supposed to have conversations. So I tracked down this thread, where you were were discussing your layout...









My concern is the TWO DPDT switches that flip from DC to DCC. It looks perfectly wired to me, BUT if you screw up, and accidentally flip ONLY 1 switch from DC to DCC, you could wind up with one rail on DC and the other on DCC. I am not an electronics expert, so I don't know exactly what would happen, but I am sure that it would not be good.

I also have a layout that flips from DC to DCC. I used one switch -- a DPTT-center off (that is double pole, triple throw) switch to flip from DC to DCC.

Two of the throws act just like your DPDT-1 switch -- switching from DC-A to DCC. The third throw is wired on the DC side to the + wire from the DC-B power source. (The – wire for the DC-B power source bypasses this switch.) On the DCC side, the third throw is not wired to anything.

So the effect is that when the switch is flipped from DCC to DC, the track leads are flipped from the DCC source to the DC-A source. Simultaneously, the DC-B power source is disconnected. This means that for DCC to run, all block switches must be switched to "A".

The center-off position is used when I don't want any power to the tracks.

With this system, there is absolutely no way that I can accidentally run both DC and DCC power to the tracks.


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## Wolferz (Aug 20, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> Wolfers: It may seem like I am resurrecting a very old thread, but I just saw your more recent post showing your track plan (with wiring) in the "Collection of Layouts" thread -- where we are not supposed to have conversations. So I tracked down this thread, where you were were discussing your layout...
> 
> View attachment 256329
> 
> ...


Hi! Thanks for the reply. As I understood dpdt switches, both leads go to one side of the switch while the second power sources both leads went to the other. Then two wires were output to the track. My design has two dc controllers going to two switches and a single dcc going to both switches. Then leads to each line and all its sidings from the two sep switches. All sidings are insulated with switches to park trains on and the connection between the two lines also insulated. I've not built it or bought the switches yet so I may be wrong... But it is a sound principle to start with.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I would refrain from making the layout switchable between DC and DCC. The concern is that if you a DC loco on the track and its running DCC you have the potential to destroy the engine. The engine could be setting there from the last run and then later you prepare to run a different mode and the engine is still there but now you've switched to DCC and done notice the engine until it starts making noise or smoke. You could dedicate one loop for DC and one loop for DCC, but I think you will be much happier with all DCC and a slow conversion of older engines to DCC. And you can then put some crossovers in.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The cautions related to DC and DCC on the same tracks
by Mtrr and Lemonhawk are important. If the two
power sources touch you would likely fry your
DCC controller.

There could be other ways to handle the power
switching that would be safer for your equipment.

It's not clear to some of us how you plan to run your
trains. For example do you plan to have a DC train
on one oval while a DCC train runs on the other at times?

Would you likely have both ovals set to DC powered
by the two separate DC power packs sometimes?

Would you have both ovals set to DCC at times?

Your answers could bring a different way to wire
the power source switches that offers more protection..

In any event, the warning about a DC loco parked
on a DCC powered track is also very important.
You should always end a DC session with all locos
on a spur that has been depowered. Remember
that DCC puts around 14 volts of modified AC on
the tracks. DC motors sitting idle would likely
soon burn out.

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Lemonhawk said:


> I would refrain from making the layout switchable between DC and DCC. The concern is that if you a DC loco on the track and its running DCC you have the potential to destroy the engine


Converting to DCC will take a long time for some of us, due to budgetary constraints. This is why I wired my layout as I described in Post #21. There is no way that I can have both systems sending current to the layout at the same time. I am not sure that Wolferz's diagram offers that level of protection.

As for leaving locos on the track, Lemonhawk makes an important point. The potential for disaster is there. But I have planned my operations carefully to avoid disaster.

(1) I am the only operator of my layout. (Friends and relatives think it's cool, but they only want to watch, not participate.) I have about six trains that I can run. But, I can only run 2 trains at one time on my small layout, and I have no room for a staging area a this time. So when I want to run, I have to either run the same trains as last time, or remove them and replace them with two new trains. I always select either 2 DC locos or 2 DCC locos.

(2) When I finish running, I always flip the DC/DCC switch to the center-off position. The next time that I run, I check to see what trains are on the track before I flip the master switch to DC or DCC.


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