# Stubborn Reverse Unit



## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

OK gang, I'm sure this one's been re-hashed over and over but:

I have a tender from a 302AC. If I give it power, (using an MRC Tech-ll A C pack)the drum rotates as it's supposed to, the "fingers" are making contact, everything's been cleaned, and I re-wired it 'cuz I thought it might be a bad wire, but no luck. When I hook it up to the engine, nothing happens. (I know the engine's ok;I checked it with another tender.)

What could I possibly have over-looked?

Mark in Oregon


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Are the insulated wheels on the correct side and are the truck insulated from the frame?

Does the coil work when you apply power wth two leads?


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

T-Man

Yes to both.

Mark in Oregon


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Do you have something wired incorrectly?

Is the e-unit upright? They are gravity-dependent.

TJ


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Check your wiring again.Make sure the fingers are contacting the drum. Use a toothpick to push on the fingers while you give power.Check your 4 prong connector to be sure the solder joints are ok.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Go to the PortLines website and print out the wiring diagram and check it against yours. I use this diagram exclusively for all my flyer engines.


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

I've done all those things,including using the wiring diagram. Can I check the 4 prongs with a voltmeter,and,if so,which prongs do I read within the sequence of forward-nutural,etc,and what would the values be?
(I hope that question made sense!)
Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> I've done all those things,including using the wiring diagram. Can I check the 4 prongs with a voltmeter,and,if so,which prongs do I read within the sequence of forward-nutural,etc,and what would the values be?
> (I hope that question made sense!)
> Mark in Oregon


It makes sense but I don't have an answer.Maybe someone else can chime in here.


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## ChopperCharles (Jan 3, 2012)

Had this same problem. Some of the locos have the chassis hot. If you swap the wires in the tender, it should work fine. Right now you're making a dead short, which is why the reverse unit does nothing and the loco won't move.

Charles.


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok I'll try that,although when I said "the drum rotates as it's supposed to", what I meant was that everything seems to function when power is applied. The unit will do its 4 step process each time I apply juice. It's just that when I then connect it to a loco that I know works the loco won't (work). That's why I was hoping I could somehow test the "leads" to make sure I wired it correctly...

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

When you put the plug into the jack panel, are you flip-flopping it? That is swapping ends?I may sound like a broken record, but check your wiring again, or try the tender with another loco, (other than the one you used already)..


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

I guess that's my key question: is there a way to actually check the voltage coming from the tender, through the wires and to the locomotive plug? Since there are 4 wires, which ones do I check, the 2 "outer" ones, the 2 "inner" ones, or a combination of one-and-one? And at which step in the sequence? I've never seen this addressed in all the on-line hunting I've been doing...

Mark in Oregon


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

You could set your multimeter for resistance and check each of the leads from their start point to the male plug side of the jack panel plug. If you have zero resistance, the connection, solder and wiring are good. Sorry to sound like th erest, but double-check the wiring diagram. I had this issue and that's what it was.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> I guess that's my key question: is there a way to actually check the voltage coming from the tender, through the wires and to the locomotive plug? Since there are 4 wires, which ones do I check, the 2 "outer" ones, the 2 "inner" ones, or a combination of one-and-one? And at which step in the sequence? I've never seen this addressed in all the on-line hunting I've been doing...
> 
> Mark in Oregon


I answered this another thread. Excuse, I'm, getting old.lol.I tore into a 302 and tested the circuits with a test light.Looking at the jack panel, #1 and #4 are reverse, and #1 and #2 are forward.


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

flyernut said:


> I answered this another thread. Excuse, I'm, getting old.lol.I tore into a 302 and tested the circuits with a test light.Looking at the jack panel, #1 and #4 are reverse, and #1 and #2 are forward.


That may be helpful,thanks.

Is it then logical to assume that that applies to all 4-wire engines?

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> That may be helpful,thanks.
> 
> Is it then logical to assume that that applies to all 4-wire engines?
> 
> Mark in Oregon


I would think so.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Strummer -- I just sent a color wiring diagram for a 4-wire steam loco to another Forum member this morning. It is very clear and concise unlike some others I've seen. If you like, I'll gladly send a copy to you too. Just need a home email so I can attach it and send. Private message me with the email address -- left click my username and select 'send private message' - use it just like email to send your message/email to me.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

How did you make out?????


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

Don M.

Got the diagram;it is the same one as I've been using, but I appreciate it just the same.

Flyernut

Haven't had a chance to re-check in a while; will try to get to it today.

To review the wiring diagram:

The blue wire from the rear truck goes to the left-hand upper terminal,along with a short jumper from the rear of the unit:it then goes from the lower right terminal to the #4 plug on the loco.
The red connects the (upper) left rear of the unit with the front truck,then on to the#2 plug.
The yellow goes from the upper front terminal straight to the #1 plug.
The black runs from the lower left terminal to the #3 plug.
Have I read the diagram correctly?
Once again, I know the wires from the plug to the engine are ok, as I can run it with a different tender.

Mark in Oregon


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

OK guys

I checked and re-checked everything yesterday, and still no luck. Is it possible that I just might have to replace this unit? I mean, I know it's "possible", but I hate to give up on it...

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> OK guys
> 
> I checked and re-checked everything yesterday, and still no luck. Is it possible that I just might have to replace this unit? I mean, I know it's "possible", but I hate to give up on it...
> 
> Mark in Oregon


Looks like you might have to replace the unit, or give another one a try to be sure.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

I don't know what to tell you. I would suggest direct connection to the engine to see if it runs, but you already stated it ran with another tender attached. Maybe check the wiring from that tender with the one you are attempting to repair, just to be sure the wiring is the same?? I'm running out of suggestions here -- sorry.

If you wish to try direct connection to the engine I can offer the wiring connections to do that -- let me know.


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

By "direct connection" do you mean where I do the "jumper cable" thing between posts 2 and 3, and run wires from the power pack to #'s 1 and 4? If so, won't that only verify that the loco works?
BTW, I appreciate you guys hanging with me on this....

Mark in Oregon


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Yep, that's what I am getting at. Obviously, I'm running out of ideas. Just wanted to verify that the problem is not with the loco itself. You can also reverse the connections to get it to run in reverse while direct connected -- not that it would show anything different either. Just throwing it out there to try.....


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Yep, that's what I am getting at. Obviously, I'm running out of ideas. Just wanted to verify that the problem is not with the loco itself. You can also reverse the connections to get it to run in reverse while direct connected -- not that it would show anything different either. Just throwing it out there to try.....


I believe he already said he tried another tender and everything works.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Yes, I know he said that.....told you I was running out of ideas. 

You know how it is when your kids don't listen to what you say....you say it again and again, louder each time.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Yes, I know he said that.....told you I was running out of ideas.
> 
> You know how it is when your kids don't listen to what you say....you say it again and again, louder each time.


Oh yes!!


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

I figured if I keep saying it, eventually his engine will work.....worth a try.


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> I figured if I keep saying it, eventually his engine will work.....worth a try.


Well, guess what: it worked! (kinda)

I was reading the thread about the armature re-wind, and saw the link to the repair manual with the video. I watched said video, saw how to remove the upper "finger board" to get to and PROPERLY clean the drum. I did that and now it works! 

The reverse mech. itself is a little "sticky", (any fixes for that?), but it does work.

Now, I read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that if you wire the smoke unit directly to the tender (by-passing the motor), it will smoke better. Would that mean running the smoke wires to the #1 and 2 posts, or...?

Anyway, thanks for bearing with me on the reverse unit issue; I appreciate the input.

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Well, it looks like we all over-thunk this one,lol.. I'm only guessing, but I think we all ASSUMED you took off the upper and lower fingers and removed the drum..I know one of us addressed the removal and cleaning of the drum, but maybe not here on this thread.... To help with the stickyness, what I do is disassemble the unit completely, removing both sets of fingers and drum. I then use a scotch-brite pad and scrub the insides of the unit where the drum lives. I also roll up a tiny piece of sandpaper and run it through the holes where the drum sets in the unit.Also lube very lightly the brass finger on the arm that actually moves the drum.. Make sure all moving parts are free. Sometimes the drum sits very tightly inside the unit and what I do, but only as a last resort, I bend the sides apart a little, giving the drum a little more room. When you re-install the upper and lower fingers, you'll return the sides to the proper width, but that little bend sometimes help..


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

flyernut said:


> Well, it looks like we all over-thunk this one,lol.. I'm only guessing, but I think we all ASSUMED you took off the upper and lower fingers and removed the drum..I know one of us addressed the removal and cleaning of the drum, but maybe not here on this thread...


I'd be embarrassed by this over-sight if I wasn't so relieved. I've been in the hobby since the early 70's,(in all scales except "G" and "Z"), but this one really had me stumped.

Now on to a #290 re-build;please expect more questions...

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> I'd be embarrassed by this over-sight if I wasn't so relieved. I've been in the hobby since the early 70's,(in all scales except "G" and "Z"), but this one really had me stumped.
> 
> Now on to a #290 re-build;please expect more questions...
> 
> Mark in Oregon


No more questions!!!!...... Of course, I'm kidding,lol.. Ask away, I have a 290 that I stripped to bare metal, painted, and lettered. I'll post a picture.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Here ya go.. She's a hot-rod...


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

Very nice indeed. Did you re-letter with decals, or dry-transfers?

Mark in Oregon


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> Very nice indeed. Did you re-letter with decals, or dry-transfers?
> 
> Mark in Oregon


Dry transfers are the ONLY way to go.. It takes a little patience and set-up before actually applying them but I think they work great!! Some restorers will spray a coat of "dul-coat" over them to protect them but sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Running a little test I guess you could call it.i


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## Strummer (Jan 6, 2013)

flyernut said:


> Dry transfers are the ONLY way to go..


Source?

Mark in Oregon


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

I bet he gets them from Port Lines Hobby online.....

http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/cgi-b...ts.html/SID=3170025756/category=Dry Transfers


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Strummer said:


> Source?
> 
> Mark in Oregon


I have bought them at PortLines but there was a on-line seller who also sold them. I believe his "handle" or sellers name was "yoder" on ebay.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Could "yoder" be a pseudonym for Flyernut's Top Secret Area 51 AF parts location??


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Could "yoder" be a pseudonym for Flyernut's Top Secret Area 51 AF parts location??


Nope!!!


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Eventually enough clues will come forth and we will be able to deduce the secret location....someday.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Eventually enough clues will come forth and we will be able to deduce the secret location....someday.


"In a galaxy, far,far away"


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