# Lionel UP Challenger Passenger Cars-Now With Better Pictures



## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

See page two!


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2018)

No, I have given up on the Lionel Lightweight plastic passenger cars. Bought one set that were a disaster. NO MORE.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hi Aaron,

Good timing. Long story short, I decided to assemble my own UP consist of sorts in my own somewhat unconventional way... so bear with me on this.

The short answer is "yes", I will have some UP Challenger passenger car photos today or tonight... but it won't be the 4-pack -- just the 2-pack and the StationSounds diner. I had already purchased the UP Theatre Car. And I really liked the UP flag car, so I purchased that 2-pack from the Excursion Series.

The longer story is... I'll have a blend of UP Excursion and Challenger cars, which I've been told have matching paints. So we'll see how everything looks. The UP Theatre Car came A-OK from a cosmetics standpoint, which is more than can be said for folks who purchased the Excursion cars earlier in 2018. 

My goal was to create a train similar to the real one that came through Pennsylvania this past Summer for the Harriman special event in upstate NY. And since that train had the trailing threatre car, I wanted one of those -- so opted not to get the 4-pack which had another observation car in it.

Please stay tuned, Aaron...

David

P.S. BTW, has anyone noticed that the Lionel website shows another UP Challenger passenger car 2-pack which they refer to as an "expansion pack". The SKU is 1927060, so it's one of the newer SKU's after Lionel reworked it product numbering scheme. But none of the dealers seem to be taking orders for it -- nor do they know much about it yet. I spoke to Charlie Ro today, and they don't even have the SKU in their system yet. So I'm thinking it might be part of the 2019 Volume 1 catalog that leaked onto Lionel's website when the 2018 Vol 2 catalog was being released?  We shall see.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> No, I have given up on the Lionel Lightweight plastic passenger cars. Bought one set that were a disaster. NO MORE.


Brian, I know how you feel. That's why I didn't buy the Challenger set after the Excursion car mess arrived at my door step...in addition to the original shipping, it cost me $100 in extra FDX charges to exchange. And, that was at my discount rate! 

I'll buy Lionel again when the QC issue is fixed. It'll take more than a few rounds of consistent deliveries to convince me though.



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> ...UP Challenger passenger car photos today or tonight...just the 2-pack and the StationSounds diner. I had already purchased the UP Theatre Car....
> 
> ...


David,
Look forward to the photos! Rumor has it your handy with a camera 

Please post the Theatre Car too! Looking for a good picture of the Challenger car ends. Curious if they match the catalog or they are simply Excursion cars. And, I appreciate it!

I saw the 'expansion pack' also on the site. I think Lionel had planned on these sets and then the factory closed. So, we'll see what's in the future.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Folks,

Here are some very quick iPhone pics of the UP 21" cars I purchased recently. As I mentioned above, this was all a bit of a last-minute -- dare I say impulse  -- purchase on my part, because I wanted to assemble a UP train similar to NS066 which I observed passing through the Lehigh Valley this Summer on the way to the special Harriman event in upstate NY.

To that end, I purchased a 2-pack from the Excursion series of cars, which included the baggage car w/flag -- a car I really wanted to include in this UP consist. I had already pre-ordered the UP Theatre car which arrived with my NS Theatre car about a week ago. (I was gonna just use that with other UP passenger cars anyway, but I'll use it with this train instead now.)

I should note at this point that the vestibule on one end of the UP Theatre car matches those of Lionel's UP Excursion series cars delivered earlier in 2018 (i.e., no diaphragms). However, the newer and more recent UP Challenger series cars have rubber diaphragms extending from the vestibules. So these cars are indeed a bit different in that respect from the earlier Excursion series cars. Other than that, I saw no huge difference between the cars, and the colors of the Excursion, Challenger and Theatre cars all match. And all cars have the bright silver wheelsets, which is a nice touch -- much preferable to the dull gray wheelsets sometimes found on UP equipment.

Cosmetically, the only issue I encountered seemed minor: one of the rubber diaphragms had partly broken away from the vestibule on a car from the Challenger 2-pack. That should be fixable with a little patience, so I'm not gonna make a big issue of it. But it prevented this from being a "perfect" cosmetic experience. Given the mess we encountered earlier this year with these 21" cars, life could have been much, much worse.  I guess I just felt lucky this time and gambled. 

Speaking of which, when I picked up the UP Excursion series 2-pack at the LHS today, the owner reminded me that they sent a bunch of those back to Lionel earlier in the year. But the ones I purchased had been checked. And indeed, they seemed A-OK in that regard.

Please understand: my comments here are STRICTLY on cosmetic terms. One of the issues I had with my Penn Central passenger cars earlier this year centered around poor coupler performance, and I wound up placing wire-ties around ALL of my PC couplers to ensure they wouldn't open unexpectedly during operating sessions -- leaving stray cars on the track.  I've yet to evaluate these newer UP Challenger series cars, so hopefully that issue has been addressed. Stay tuned....

The other good thing I noticed with the UP Challenger StationSounds Diner is the factory crew DID install the plastic wall that hides the internal electronics. This wall was installed in some StationSounds diners and missed on others from the production runs earlier this year. From what I experienced, the American Freedom Train StationSounds diner did NOT have that wall installed, so the electronics can be seen inside the car.  Sloppy craftsmanship on the part of the factory crew who assembled those cars. But again, the newer UP Challenger cars don't seem to have that problem -- at least not the one I received.

All in all, I'm OK with what I have thus far -- unless I run into any serious operational issues. Cosmetically, I'll need to decide about a uniform look with the vestibules/diaphragms. I like the look WITH the diaphragms on the Challenger cars, so I'll probably try to find those "parts" to see if they can be installed on the Excursion cars. But whether any spare parts even exist for these cars remains to be seen. Much too early in the game at this point. So we'll see what Lionel's party line is this time around. As for the ease or difficulty accessing the interiors of the UP Challenger cars to install passengers? That remains to be seen as well. But that's for another day.

Anyway, I'll let these quick iPhone pics do the talking now. Enjoy!!!


*Photo1:* All UP cars pictured (Excursion & Theatre [top row], and Challenger 2-pack [bottom row]) have matching colors and silver wheelsets!










*Photo2:* Close-up view of UP Challenger series diaphragms.










*Photo3:* Close-up view of UP cars w/o diaphragms.










*Photo4:* Close-up view of the one diaphragm separated from the vestibule -- should be an easy fix.










*Photo5:* Comparison of UP passenger cars with/without rubber diaphragms.










*Photo6:* Close-up view of the UP Theatre Cars observation window.










Best of luck to any of you venturing into the Lionel 21" passenger car waters this time. At least on the surface, the experience this time appears to be a MUCH more pleasant one compared to what MANY of us encountered earlier this year. After hearing the comment tonight from the LHS where I purchased the Excursion 2-pack, it reinforced the fact that my first-look reviews earlier this year were spot on -- regardless of OGR management's concern that those kind of comments on "their" forum were harming their money relationship with Lionel. So be it.

Now getting back to the UP consist I'm planning to assemble... so far so good. All I need now is Lionel's "Spirit of the Union Pacific" SD70ACe -- which is due to arrive any week now -- to head up what should be a beautiful train. And should Lionel decide to offer that other UP Challenger "expansion pack" that I mentioned in my earlier post, that will be a bonus too! 

David


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

David,

Thanks for the pictures! Well done!

Very pleased to see the Challenger cars received the diaphragms as Lionel depicted in the catalog. And, as an added bonus, seems they may have addressed a few of the quality issues the Excursion cars had.

The cars look very nice!

Hope they make the expansion pack in the future. I'm sure you'll enjoy those also.

Again, thanks for the pictures,

Aaron


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

David the cars are beautiful. I hope that they run as well as they look and they should.

Art


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Anyone buy the 4 pack? Would like to see the observation car...


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I was able to see the Challenger cars first hand today. They're very nice. I took a lot of pictures, but had a setting wrong on the camera, very few turned out. Of course, I didn't realize until I uploaded them on the computer. 

Here's the observation:


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I should note at this point that the vestibule on one end of the UP Theatre car matches those of Lionel's UP Excursion series cars delivered earlier in 2018 (i.e., no diaphragms). However, the newer and more recent UP Challenger series cars have rubber diaphragms extending from the vestibules.
> 
> Cosmetically, I'll need to decide about a uniform look with the vestibules/diaphragms. I like the look WITH the diaphragms on the Challenger cars, so I'll probably try to find those "parts" to see if they can be installed on the Excursion cars.


Just an observation, but your excursion cars do indeed have diaphragms that are prototypical to the modern era the cars are modeled after. I believe most, if not all, passenger cars in service today have that newer style rubber tube type diaphragm between the cars. On the model, the gap between the car is so out of scale that they're a mile apart.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

santafe158 said:


> Just an observation, but your excursion cars do indeed have diaphragms that are prototypical to the modern era the cars are modeled after. ....


Correct! I should have used the phrase "rubber diaphragms" more consistently.... the point being the Excursion cars to not have rubber diaphragms extending from the car body.

Thanks for clarifying.

David


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)




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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks to my friend for letting me photograph these!


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> I was able to see the Challenger cars first hand today . . . Here's the observation:
> 
> View attachment 475030
> 
> ...


Looks like the observation car has the same end details as in the Excursion set i.e. not a rubber/bellows-shaped diaphragm but the more modern tubular one. I imagine that’s prototypical but have not been able to confirm from the usual sources. 

Does the car have a name or road number on it? (P.S. I originally posted this before seeing the above additional photos. The car is numbered 9002 and that has an interesting history including being dubbed the “Popemobile” at one stage: http://trainweb.org/railnewspb/U/! Whether it was ever part of the Challenger train consist I cannot determine.)

In the Lionel catalog image it is shown as having a bellows diaphragm at the front and a flat end:


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> No, I have given up on the Lionel Lightweight plastic passenger cars. Bought one set that were a disaster. NO MORE.


Brian and others:
As a relative newcomer, not sure what this means. All the rolling stock including passenger sets I have ever seen are plastic so you must be referring to the thickness of the mold, quality of the mold rather than metal v plastic. 

As a Granger road collector I will be adding U.P. Passenger sets. Right now I have the $600 4 car Rock Island set that I purchased 2 years ago (never out of the box except once to admire.) I have some Southern Pacific Daylight items picked up at auctions and flea shops. 

I am not a purchaser of the passenger cars with "fake" people images on the windows, I go right past those. I want more realism in the interiors, which is why I purchased the R.I. set. Are these "lightweight" plastic molds? 

I will start purchasing my U.P. sets later in 2019 as I need to focus on getting the track/layout done. But while my family and I were out in Cheyenne Wy I scored some NOS The Challenger serving pieces. That led me to research and I see The Challenger was the low price variant of the overland travel options. Streamliner # 1 as I understand it. 

I figured "price" dictated quality and I was able to view and see the R.I. set I purchased for $600 in action and for me - was impressed. 

The photos I see in this thread - to my novice eye - show nice looking passenger cars.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Those cars are nice. Maybe Lionel will think of guys with smaller layouts someday.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Harbor,
Challenger cars have rubber diaphragms. Different from Excursion cars.

Bryan,

Lionel QC has left a lot to be desired lately. Plagued by one mess after another.

Here’s the UP Excursion car thread:
https://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=67458&page=34

You only need to look at the last few pages to get an idea. If you’re buying UP cars in the future, I strongly recommend you get a used set that has been ran, not a NIB set. 

With that said, the quality of the Challenger set is much improved. All the cars I photographed were defect free, at least cosmetically. I never applied power to check for functionality as they don’t belong to me.

Good luck,


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> Brian and others:
> As a relative newcomer, not sure what this means. All the rolling stock including passenger sets I have ever seen are plastic so you must be referring to the thickness of the mold, quality of the mold rather than metal v plastic.
> 
> The photos I see in this thread - to my novice eye - show nice looking passenger cars.


Sorry, you are wrong about plastic v. metal i.e. aluminum. Lionel, K-Line and Golden Gate Depot have produced significant runs of streamliner cars made of extruded aluminum. Lionel has stopped doing so in favor of ABS plastic, K-Line is off the scene and I don't think MTH has offered any aluminum cars for years (if ever). Don't know about what Weaver has offered in the past but I think of major O scale importers, only Golden Gate Depot now offers any passenger cars in metal (being aluminum or, for certain very high end cars, brass). 

Challenger cars do look good but they were preceded by the most troublesome run of passenger cars (from any manufacturer) ever. It was pot luck that my UP Excursion cars all arrived with no cosmetic (or other) defects.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I made new diaphragms closer to the prototype with I beam supports and also moved the couplers inboard about 1/4".

Before:









After:









New diaphragms on the right.









New kinematic coupler location. Original mounting holes near the end. This required drilling and tapping 4 new 2mm holes for each coupler assembly and replacing the spring with a shorter one.










FWIW, I know folks dislike thumb tack couplers for their appearance but they are so much easier to relocate than the hidden uncoupling types which Lionel typically have sticking out an extra 6 scale feet. Plus the thumb tack is easily removed if you don't need them for switching operations which passenger cars are rarely involved in.
Pete


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## Guest (Jun 21, 2019)

Very nice conversion, Pete.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Pete,
Awesome job, they look so much better closely coupled. I already added this to my “must do” list. Thanks for sharing, now I won’t need to “reinvent the wheel” as I update stuff!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Its not too hard of a job but my hand was getting tired. 88 holes to tap and I just got two more Excursion cars to do including the Council Bluffs. At the end I had down to about 30 minutes a car. Thats it until they make the Kenefick car.

Pete


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