# Flying Yankee not flying.



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

The motor alone on the track barely moves at low voltage and does move decently at high voltage. Now put the motor in the engine and add a car this thing crawls at 22 volts. The motor has been cleaned, oiled, brushes checked and turns very freely. Anybody have any idea what's happening ?

B


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I'd stop feeding it 22 volts, that can't be the solution!

Did you clean the commutator in the motor? Given the symptoms, that would be the first place I'd look.


----------



## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

inxy,

Lots of things pop to mind on this one. Start like gnjohn stated and clean
the commutator also if you have an extra set of new brushes put them into
the motor. Sometimes the brushes depending on style can soak up oil even
if they look like they can not.

Check all wire connections and the E-unit fingers and drum for clean 
connections if equipted with such. Also the Rollers on the pickup plate can
cause this symptom. Make sure that their is only a small ohm drop over the
whole motor from pick to frame it should only be 2 to 3 ohms. 

Not engine problems will fall under a bad lock on, replace with a spare if you
can. Also undersized wires from the transformer to the lock on. Should
be at least a 14 guage wire and 12 is better.

And Gunrunnerjohn,

I have an old model K at 150 watts what puts out 31 volts on the highest
setting. =o Lets just say it moves anything!

Pookybear


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No way I'd put 31 volts on anything I own here!


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

The e-unit and commutator have been cleaned. Temporarily using 16 ga wire trans to track which runs other streams/diesels. Planning on 12 ga for final wiring and trans to buss bars for lighting and switches and soldering to track in half a dozen places. Lockon was cleaned. No extra brushes but will try other set from a different engine and check resistance. Have a compressor and blew all the crap out of the motor so supposedly no extraneous oil. If I had 32 volts I'd give it a shot. The wife says supper time.

B


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, 32V isn't a solution, the engine should haul a bunch of cars with 18-20V.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The engine should run at about 7 volts. Obviously, there is a serious voltage drop somewhere.

Does the motor run freely if you push it on the track?

Don't worry about oil on the commutator. I oil the commutators on my engines with 5W-20 and they run better that way. The brushes are impregnated with oil when they are made. 

BB


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

The engine doesn't think of moving until it gets 14 volts. For the hell of it pulled the brushes and armature this am. Ran emery cloth on an already clean commutator, brushes look ok and wiring on armature seems to be okay. Motor turns extremely free. Resistance between pickup and frame is near zero. Break's over, back to yard work.....


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm starting to think maybe there's a shorted turn in either the armature or field coils. I wonder what kind of current the motor is pulling when it tries to start?


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

I'll try out my spiffy new multimeter in the morning. There is not much left to check. Ran thru normal checks and a few other before posting. Call for help time. Put my F3 on the track just to see what it does under the same voltage. At 22 volts it runs fast enough to fly off on the turns. Concrete city at that speed. Track runs at the edge of layout at several places. Time for couple of guard rails.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I still say something's not right. I can't get any conventional engine anywhere close to the 20V max of my KW before it rolls off the track.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Finally got to check current pull. The F3 diesel pulls more than the Flying Yankee. Will play with some more - had a busy 3-4 days and got nothing done on the trains..

B


----------



## Gerard (Dec 26, 2010)

I'm a newbie so take all of this with a grain of salt, but I'd double check every wire/solder and maybe even replace wiring and bypass the E-Unit as a last resort before ruling that the motor is shorted. Just seems to me that electricity loss due to a bad connection would fit the symptoms. A cold solder joint put my 1688 out of service until I happened to find it and fix it, and it's been running like a champ since. Both of my pre-war locomotives run with about 7-9 volts and would fly off the track before reaching the 16 volts max from my 1033.

Hope you can get it running right; the Flying Yankee is one of my favorites.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The fact that it doesn't draw a lot of current suggests that Gerard is probably correct, it's a poor connection somewhere.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Simple way to find the problem:

Put the loco on the track with the shell removed. Put about 10 volts on the track. Take a clip lead and attach the black lead from the meter to the outside rail. Put the meter on 20 volts AC. Take the red lead from the meter and touch the center rail. Verify that you have 10 volts. Then take the red lead and start going from point to point of the wiring inside the loco. Start with the power terminal on the E unit. Then go to the brush holders and then to the field winding. Write down the voltages you measure. Somewhere you are going to find a terminal with 10 volts and the next terminal in line will have near zero volts. For example, if one brush has 10 volts and the other has 0 volts, the brushes are not making contact with the commutator. Ditto the two ends of the field coil. If the E unit is not in neutral, one of the wires coming from the E unit should have 10 volts on it. 

BB


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you can't figure out what is wrong, post the voltage measurements and we will try to help you.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

So far I get a 2.8v voltage drop from the brush with track voltage to the other brush. A 2v drop at field feed wire. Also took the e-unit part - all is well here.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

In addition I'm getting 25 ohms between the brushes. At 10.6 metered volts the motor only will try to turn, no more than a 1/4 - 1/2 rev.

B


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

25 ohms between the brushes seems like a lot! I just pulled the shell of my track cleaning car (easiest one to get to the engine), and measured across the brushes. I get around 2 ohms! I have no reason to expect that a larger engine of the same design would get more resistance, probably less.

If you're getting 25 ohms, they're making LOUSY connection, which is the issue. I'd remove the brushes and using #600 emery paper, clean the surface that contacts the armature. I'd also clean the armature with Scotchbrite until it shines.


----------



## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

inxy said:


> In addition I'm getting 25 ohms between the brushes. At 10.6 metered volts the motor only will try to turn, no more than a 1/4 - 1/2 rev.
> 
> B


I thought this was covered on page 1. Anyways, while your in there cleaning
brushes and the commutator you can also check the the leads from the 
windings to the commutator as well. Make sure all are sodered and the leads
from each of the windings should also be sodered together. Check the brushes
themselves again. No heavy oils or grease fouling the brushes.

Once again over the whole system from roller to ground on the wheel there
should be 2 to 3 ohms and like 4 ohms max. 

However, it seems that you have found the main source of your problems.

Pookybear


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When you clean the brushes, clean the ends that contact the commutator and also clean the sides of the brushes. Then make sure the brush holders in the brush plates where the brushes are installed are also clean as the brushes make contact with the brush holders. You can use brake clean or WD-40 to clean everything. I would recommend using a ScotchBrite pad to clean the commutator and the ends of the brushes. 

Pookybear's recommendation to check the solder where the wires are soldered to the commutator segments is a good one. Also check the solder on the wires that connect to the brush holders. Make sure the brushes are free to move when they are installed in the brush holders.

When you get the resistance across the brushes down to 2 ohms or so, the motor will probably run OK.

BB


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

I did the clean - resistance across brushes, ie.,, brush to brush is 2.5 ohms. Brush holder to brush holder about 7/8 ohms after cleaning both brushes and inside of holders. We do have an improvement. Previously the engine would not pull two cars at 17.5 v which is max for my ZW. Now it will pull all slowly with a little manual help. Using my type R transformer which puts out 20 volts at the track the whole train runs nicely at 18.5 volts. Next time apart (this afternoon) I'll check wires to brush holders which is a screw connection. Solder joint on wires to commutator are solid and shiny. Not sure who is getting more tired of dealing with this, you people with trouble shooting or me carry out the suggestions. We are making progress. It's "Bud Time".


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There's still high resistance there. The measurement I gave you for my little track cleaner motor was on the brush connections, so that included the brushes and armature. You're on the right track, but something is still causing high resistance there.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I just measured the point to point resistances on a 2023. From one commutator segment to anther measures about 0.75 ohms. From brush to brush, slightly higher, maybe 0.78 ohms. From brush holder to brush holder it can be somewhat higher depending on how good the contact is between the brushes and the brush holders. From one end of the field coil to the other was also about 0.75 ohms. This loco has one end of the field coil grounded to the powered truck. From the grounded end of the field coil to the wheel on the powered truck, the resistance was high, about 4 ohms. But to the wheel on the unpowered truck in was about 0.2 ohms. From the pickup roller to one of the brush holders it was also about 0.2 ohms. 

Do you see any corrosion anywhere? Like on the inside of the brush holders?

One thing you can do is run the loco for a few minutes and then carefully touch various places. Something is going to be HOT. Don't burn your fingers.
BB


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I figured the values I posted would be lower for a larger motor, the motor in the track cleaning car is pretty small, obviously pretty low current and higher resistance.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

After a ten minute run the brush area is the hottest followed by the armature and field coil and front end of frame last. Hot enough that one does not hang on to it. The brush plate heats up first courtesy of other checks. I'll do the resistance checks you suggested after supper. I have no corrosion, rust, etc. anywhere on the motor, rather amazing considering the motor is 75 years old and spent the 50 years sitting on sheds and garages. The gears have been lightly oiled and everything turns very freely with little effort.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the brush area is getting hot, there's where the resistance is! It could be the brushes should be replaced, that's one thing I'd certainly consider at this point.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Here we go:
commutator segment to segment 1.8/1.9
Field to Ground 2.0 field coil is grounded on one end on this engine so reading is thru coil.
PU roller to brush holder 0.2 for one the other infinite


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, if both of the brushes were shorted to the PU roller, you'd have a big problem! 

I'm betting on the brushes or their connection to the brush holder.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

How about the resistance between the brushes? The problem appears to be with the brushes or brush holder. The brushes have to make contact with the brush holders and also with the commutator. At one of these two places, you have a poor contact. 

Are the brush springs OK? Not bent? When you put the brushes in the brush holder, do they move in and out freely and do the springs provide some pressure on them? A weak brush spring would cause this problem.
BB


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

GRJ,
Depending on where the E unit drum is, there should be no continuity between the pickup roller and the brush holder, or there should be 0.2 ohms to one brush holder and about 2-2.5 ohms to the other one. 

BB


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Round 23 and counting. OK, took brushes from a 41 Switcher and placed in Yankee, same old thing. So Yankee brushes are good. Resistance brush to brush is 1.9/2.0 which is consistent with com seg to seg which is 1.8/1.9. Brush holder to brush holder at the screw connection is 8.0 ( Measuring at the screw connection is the only place on the holder that I get a stable reading.) On the 41 switcher I get .2/.3 on resistance from com seg to com seg, a lot lower than the Yankee. Faulty armature on Yankee? Brushes move freely, single wire type spring appears to exert downward force on the brush as the brush moves with the lateral slop in the armature. For round 24 I will bend the springs to increase pressure and see what happens. On the 41 Switcher which did not run, cleaned the commutator and now running-more cleaning on the way. Servoguy, I think I ran across somewhere in a post that your first name is Bruce, so is mine. Not that common of a name. Back to the work bench.

B


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, between the brush holder and the screw connection, you have a problem.

A picture or two of what we're talking about would go a long ways here.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Yes, it does appear that there is a problem between the brush holder and the screw connection. If you get consistent readings between the 3 commutator segments, the armature is likely OK. I assume the coils on the armature do not appear burned or damaged.

Since the brushes are a little loose in the brush holders, it may not be easy to get consistent readings on the brush holder to brush holder resistance.

Bruce Baker


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Pics are attached. Cleaned screw brush holder are again. Resistance now 6.5 between holders.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Guys,

I realize I'm "joining the party late" here, but in that 3rd photo, are you SURE that the brush holder plate is put on that way? Why am I thinking that it's mounted backwards? The brush holder "brackets" go on the outside of the brush holder plate as mounted, right?

Maybe not ... I've never fiddled with this specific motor. But on my postwar 249 loco, which has a somewhat similar brush plate, the brush brackets go on the outside.

If you mount the plate with the holders on the inside, aren't they potentially rubbing up against the commutator plate ???

Maybe? Maybe not???

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Update ...

I guess NOT:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/001126.pdf

However, are you sure that as you have it mounted, there's not some part of the brush holder brackets and/or the wires soldered to them that's inadvertently touching and causing a short with the commutator?

TJ


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Picture (pdf) does not really show it . The bottom of the brush holder is in a fixed position of about 1/8" above the commutator with the brushes sticking out to make contact with the commutator.

Impossible to put the brush plate on incorrectly (?) as it is odd shaped and mounting points accordingly. The mounting posts are set up like the cross pieces on a e-unit. The two wires coming from the brush holders are attached high enough to avoid contact with the commutator. Be nice if it was something simple !


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It looks to me like the brush plate is mounted correctly. There appears to be only one way to mount it with the hole for the armature shaft in the correct position.
BB


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

I did not run the motor after the last clean/check out of disgust. So this afternoon thru the motor on the tract and it moves at 12 volts, all right hook up the whole thing. Amazing it runs, not like fast but fast enough that I can live with. New problem - certain areas of tract the wheels loose traction and spin, more power, more spin. Shut down and restart same location, wheels just spin. What do I do to gain traction - rough up the wheels, add weight ? At last this a problem that I an enjoy. On 41 Switcher cleaned e-unit and now have forward and revere. Imagine that !


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Make sure the track and wheels are clean of oil. I use rubbing alcohol to clean the track. I attach a pad of paper towels to the underside of a heavy car, put some alcohol on the paper towels. and tow it around the track a few times. You might be surprised how much oil & dirt shows up on the pad. This will clean the wheels of the engine, also.

I have one loco, a 2025 with nickel or stainless rims on the wheels, and it is very greasy. It doesn't pull well no matter what. I have another 2025 without the fancy rims, and it pulls good. ?????

Once again I suggest you spray WD-40 on the brushes of the Flying Yankee motor and see what happens. Can't hurt anything, and it may solve the problem.

Bruce Baker


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Also, make sure the wheels on the cars are lubed and spin freely.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, adding weight is a time honored method of getting more traction. There's always Bullfrog Snot as another method.

I'd start by thoroughly cleaning the track and making sure there is NO oil or other contaminants on it. Ditto for the wheels.


----------



## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i would try finding some rubber traction tires that would fit it first, i'd prob. put them both on 2 wheels on one side of the engine, the side you didn't have any contact from the track clip.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Traction tires do not work well with non-derailing switches. Unfortunately.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Traction tires also won't work on this engine, since it doesn't have the wheels with the grooves for the traction tire. They'd spin off in about three-four feet!


----------



## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

i think his problem all along was the springs/tension on the brushes.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, from all the measurements, I'd have to agree that it's in the brush area.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, you see, the resistance from brush to brush is OK, indicating that the brushes are making good contact with the commutator. The measurement from one brush holder to the other is too high indicating a problem with the contact between the brushes and the brush holders. That is why I suggest he spray it down with WD-40. 

Bruce Baker


----------



## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Well, you see, the resistance from brush to brush is OK, indicating that the brushes are making good contact with the commutator. The measurement from one brush holder to the other is too high indicating a problem with the contact between the brushes and the brush holders. That is why I suggest he spray it down with WD-40.
> 
> Bruce Baker


he could be getting a good resistance from one brush to the other because he's pushing the pins on ohm tester against the brushes causing a good connection between the brushes and commutator. if theres pressure on them hes doing the same thing that the springs do. the brushes don't take much pressure, by pushing on them to check the ohms it's gonna make a good connection.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I suggest that he check from a brush holder to the brush. That would eliminate any confusion about the brush holder to brush resistance.


----------



## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

it's going to be the springs.



put it on the track without the body turn the power on, push on the brushes and see if it speeds up, it if does clean the springs and bend them so theres more tension.


----------



## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

A general post. Surprisingly with a very clean motor I WD'd the hell out of the brush area and it make a little more improvement. So I can run the fall train at 17.5/18 volts at a reasonable speed. The spring is a piece of wire 3/4" long with a long end and a short end with a loop between. Very thin wire, like thin enough if I bend it it may snap. It appear that the spring is putting some pressure on the brush but very little. Time to see if the parts man has a new set of springs. Per: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123\001115.pdf the spring is a #1-48 and were selling for $1.10/set eight years go. Probably a week to get and we'll go from there. As always many many thanks for the help and thoughts.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It is unlikely that you will break the springs if you bend them. After x_doug_x suggested it was the brushes, I thought about it and came to the conclusion that he was probably right. The brush plate and brushes got hot due to the high resistance, and that caused the springs to lose their temper. You probably should replace them, but it wouldn't hurt to try bending them. If they bend easily, and then bend back when you install the brushes, they are probably no good.

Bruce Baker


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The fact that they were getting hot screams out high resistance, so the springs are the top suspect.


----------

