# just starting,



## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

hi all

So, I have plans for a 4x8 in the garage, wife would prefer it's on pulleys, so I can park. I've seen some posts here of people doing it, wonder if they are happy with how it works. I'm planning on a steam era with hills, woods.

DCC,
is it something that goes on locomotives? 
are only some models good for it? 
is it only for sound?

brands for steam, 
some better than others? 
are small 4-4-0 only capable of pulling just a couple cars? 
what would it take to pull maybe 10 or 20?

I saw some tomix thomas the train with 4 in radius online, serious 4 in? would a 4-4-0 make that tight a turn? 
or 2-6-0?

if I put a sloped curve in, will it angle inwards to much?

other than appearances, how much slope is to much? 
I'd expect my engine to slow down with grade increasing.

does it matter what brand of track I buy? 
should my curves be flex or the pre radius ones?

and I'm sure all these have been answered somewhere else, lol, but finding them all blow my organic computer over my shoulders, ^_^ 

oh, and what do I NOT do? 

thanks


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Mr. D,

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have some fun plans in the works.

We have a Search tool on the main menu bar of the forum. Try a Seach for "pulley layout", "suspended layout" and the like. We have a few threads that show some nice examples. Have a peek there, and then ping us with more specific questions.

We get questions about track grade a lot. It depends on the strength of the engine, number of cars in tow, realism to a real RR, etc. That said, here's a rough rule of thumb ...

1.5% grade ... pretty easy
2% grade ... common
3% grade ... common, but getting up there
4% grade ... pretty steep, though used on small overpass layouts with short consists (few train cars in tow).

Grade is simply the rise (vertical height delta) divided by the runway (horizontal distace) to get there. A 2" rise in 100" of runway is a 2% grade.

If you have a grade along a curve, the track might angle inwards a tiny bit, but this is generally OK. In fact, real RR track is often "banked" like that, to help counteract a trains centrifigul force.

DCC requires a "decoder" in the loco, and a controller to generate the coded electrical signals. Here's a quick intro to DCC ...

http://loystoys.com/info/how-dcc-works.html

Most guys love flex track. Very versatile. But, before you decide whether that's your best option, you really should think about what track layout plan you hope to build. There's several track planning computer software programs (including some free ones) that can help. Also, this site has some layout ideas:

http://www.thortrains.net/

Good luck!

TJ


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

that decoder stuff was really great, thanks loads, our garage now looks to be a remodel into a family room so it got even nice, now who could ask for a better wife than that, trains to the left, sewing to the right. but now i've one more question. it seems most layouts hug the wall with spurs jutting out. so i put a couple 4x8 in arrangements wondering which you think makes for a better layout. being in ignorance, i can't say i've a favorite. now though i can see large curves with big engines, ahhh, logging now comes to mind living up here in the seattle area. with those water chutes, and totem poles. and are roundhouse/revolver needed that much? how often do you turn locomotives around?


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

I use my turntable and roundhouse just for parking engines not in use at the time


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

If it's going to be against a wall, you won't want it to be 4' deep. You won't be able to reach anything along the back wall. Try to limit reach in to 30", 36" at the MOST if the table is low enough or you're pretty tall. 

If you want continuous running you'll have a loop on each end. If you run smaller cars (40-50') then you can get away with tighter radii (18-22") as a minimum and you'll need a 4x4 circle to complete the loop (22" radius + a couple inches clearance from the edge of the table) If you want to run the larger cars/engines you may want to keep the minimum radius 24" which allows you to run just about anything, but you'll need more room in the loops (54-60" total diameter) to complete a turnaround loop. 

Don't limit yourself to the shape of a 4x8, a layout can be just about any shape you want (take a look at my layout build thread below for an example.)

My 2-6-2 Prarie can pull 5 heavy cars up my helix which is set at ~2.4%. If you can add weight to an engine that increases pulling power (more tractive effort available) or if you run lighter cars you can get longer trains. Heavier cars tend to track better and derail less often (my cars rarely derail, usually only when one of my kids bumps the table hard.)

Roundhouses are nice for storing locomotives - you won't have just one, trust me on this one. These things are like potato chips. You gotta have a bunch. Too many different types to choose from to stick with only one. 

You can use a turntable to turn engines around or you can have a wye track to turn them around (think a triangle of track using 3 turnouts) Wyes require special wiring to avoid short circuits (not that difficult, just a little different.)

DCC opens up a whole new realm of operating when compared to DC. I recommend it to anyone looking to do more than just a basic oval, and I think anyone getting into the hobby today would be foolish to not go DCC. (Just my opinion)

Go to a hobby shop and look for the magazines that have layout plans in them to get an idea of the huge variety of shapes that layouts can be made into. These things aren't really all that hard to design/build. If you've got a jigsaw and a power drill you can build almost anything. A nice chop saw makes cuts more accurate/faster.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> Roundhouses are nice for storing locomotives - you won't have just one, trust me on this one. These things are like potato chips. You gotta have a bunch.


At the local hobby shop last weekend I was looking at the new Locomotives. The guy said "Come on, which one do you want today - you know you want another one"

"I said LOL, well maybe, but not today, how many do you have?"

"I have enough to buy a brand new BMW if I sold them all"

"What! How many is that - a thousand?"

"Well it's in the thousands anyway"


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Mr. Duane,

Welcome to the forum! I noticed something in your original post that seemed to have been overlooked and might make your decisions on the layout much easier. Essentially, it's the need to take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Some things can be attractive features initially, but overcomplicate the layout and make it a whole lot more trouble and work than it has to be. So, before you get into all that planning with pulleys and such, let me ask you something: do you actually need that wife? If you took that facet out of your layout, I believe you'd find it would go more smoothly, assemble faster, and result in a more satisfactory layout. 

Best wishes with it,


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

the two 4x8 "L" shape was going to be away from the wall so I can walk around it. compared to the "U" shape with the wall behind the 30 inch connector piece. the third choice would be an "E" shape up against the wall only with thinner track areas (30"). the whole point is it better, (ya, loaded statement) to have a thicker plot of land or a thinner one? what works best? I've no clue as to what works better for railroading. i'm thinking of 12" radii, i understand that works for all steam locomotives, looks are nice enough, but i don't want the end of an area to be a tight semicircle pushed to the edge.

my personal preference is a nice long continuous loop for the grandkid to watch, and then some spurs for switching, or smaller loops for off shoots.

which begs the question, are reverse loops a pain with dcc or can i ignore even thinking about them when the engine heads back down the line.

and are switches operated by dcc or the control panel or manually, i've not seen dcc and switch in the same sentence. 

the layout thought is a couple townish areas for wife to see a passenger train go back and forth, and then my hills lumberjack areas headed down one of the towns lumber mill.

so, it's not on pulleys anymore, but a floor model.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Bwaaaahaha....watchout.....reckers will get you in trouble


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Are you looking at N scale or HO? 12" radius is too small for HO (unless you're like choo choo who runs micro sized rolling stock.)

DCC can run just about anything, the more stuff you want to control, the more the investment in various electronic devices to send the signals. You can control switches directly from a DCC throttle if desired.

My opinion is that manually controlled reverse loops in DC are a pain (you have to throw switches to reverse the polarity of the mainline every time you go through the loop.) but this is only the case if your track doubles back on itself. If you have essentially a double mainline through the middle of the track and a loop at each end, so long as the track doesn't go back on itself you don't have any reverse loops to deal with.

With an 8x15' area to work with you can have a pretty nice layout, plenty of room to do all kinds of neat things.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

N scale here, ^_^, and i'll keep the wife. lol. (shhh, you never know when she's watching)

so, what kind of layout would 'you' put in a 8x15? N scale?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

8x15 would give you a nice sized HO layout or a REAL nice N scale layout (you'd need 16x30 for HO to do the same you could do with N)

For reference, mine is HO scale 14x16'

Virtually no limit on what you would be able to do with 8'x15' in N scale. The only limit would be your imagination.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> The only limit would be your imagination.


dang, lol


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

I,m building a 3ft x 35ft layout against the basement wall


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

ruben123321 said:


> I,m building a 3ft x 35ft layout against the basement wall


Hey....another Michigan guy :thumbsup:


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

just moved back from iowa...starting my new layout


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Just tryin' to help...*rubbing my toe in the dirt*


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Welcome to the forum! I noticed something in your original post that seemed to have been overlooked and might make your decisions on the layout much easier. Essentially, it's the need to take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Some things can be attractive features initially, but overcomplicate the layout and make it a whole lot more trouble and work than it has to be. So, before you get into all that planning with pulleys and such, let me ask you something: do you actually need that wife? If you took that facet out of your layout, I believe you'd find it would go more smoothly, assemble faster, and result in a more satisfactory layout.


:laugh:

Just saw that subtle little comment now. Too funny, Reck!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

How about keeping the wife but moving the sewing room somewhere else?

Just imagine what you could do with all that extra space!:laugh:


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Just saw that subtle little comment now. Too funny, Reck!
> 
> TJ




It kinds sneaks up on ya, TJ.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

big ed said:


> How about keeping the wife but moving the sewing room somewhere else?
> 
> Just imagine what you could do with all that extra space!:laugh:




You know, Ed, a lot of people buy a dog for the kids and then, within a year or so, the kids lose interest in the dog. Some will decide it needs a better home than that and will meticulously search for a family that would like to have the pup and would make it part of the family. (Before I go further, I'm the kind that feels that when you adopt a dog, it's a lifetime commitment you don't go back on.)
Anyway, if he could find another family that would treasure her and give her a nice, warm sewing room of her own....


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

ruben123321 said:


> I,m building a 3ft x 35ft layout against the basement wall


Welcome back---show us some pics!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

sstlaure said:


> Bwaaaahaha....watchout.....reckers will get you in trouble


I have no shame, Scott.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

sooo, Reckers, you do S scale, but wander into N scale? needing a change? and Sstlaure, a HO guy here also? I smell converts in the wings, haha. so, since I've not layed any track yet, and Tjcruiser & BIG ED doing several kinds of track, given that I have a bit more room, is N actually the best bet for me. I do like the idea of vastness you can get from N. what are the advantages of the larger scales?


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Mr. D,

I see that you have a dream, and I'd not take that away from you...but, the likelihood of my leaving S scale for any of the lesser gauges is remote. I simply saw you were building a layout, and this site is based on helping each other. I freely admit I knew nothing about trains when I arrived here, and the true gurus of the site taught me everything I know.:worshippy:

That acknowledged, I'd also point out N has always appeared to me to be a great size to run either when space is limited or when you have the appetite for a realistic, high-density layout. The accuracy of the cars is limited by their size, but that same factor enhances the amount of detail that can be included in a layout.

S scale is a tinkerer's scale---you'll note "scale" rather than "gauge". Most manufacturer's start with gauge---the space between the inner, vertical faces of the track rails---and build trains to fit on them. S scale is a little different: it began with a desire to accurately downsize the locomotive or car with as much detail as possible, then to match the track to the scaled-down consist. In size, it's about halfway between O and HO. It's big enough for old eyes and fingers to work with, and most of it's appeal is that it's golden years were in the 1940's and 1950's. American Flyer was the primary manufacturer, and they built these little darlings to last forever. The fact that I'm running 60-year old trains and have no trouble maintaining them gives you an idea of the quality of the workmanship. It's a scale that demands a lot of hands-on creativity if you want to run it, as there's not much available for the I'll-just-buy-myself-a-layout person---if you want a pretty tunnel entrance, you build it from scratch. S scalers tend to be parts hoarders, but also tend to be generous about sharing what we have. It sort of a religion centered on keeping the stuff working to pass on to the next generation.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Looking at your space available and your desired track layout ideas of keeping away from the edge would make doing it in HO rather difficult without a fair amount of compromise on the radius of your curves. With the amount of space that you have, N will give you a grand layout! You really will only be limited by your imagination and $$$.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I just like to help regardless of the scale being used. I just a fan of trains in general in all their forms :thumbsup:


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

train room


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

recycling lumber


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

recycled lumber


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

ruben123321,
No trying to be a jeck, but it's generally bad form to poach or derail someone else's tread. Start your own thread and you'll get alot more feed back directed to you, your layout, and progress.:thumbsup:
Sorry to derail MrDuane, yes we are all good about doing that here!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

sstlaure said:


> I just like to help regardless of the scale being used. I just a fan of trains in general in all their forms :thumbsup:


Agreed--they're all great. Even O gauge, though I admit I take pleasure in riding those guys.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

MrDuane said:


> sooo, Reckers, you do S scale, but wander into N scale? needing a change? and Sstlaure, a HO guy here also? I smell converts in the wings, haha. so, since I've not layed any track yet, and Tjcruiser & BIG ED doing several kinds of track, given that I have a bit more room, is N actually the best bet for me. I do like the idea of vastness you can get from N. what are the advantages of the larger scales?



The main difference with a larger scale is, you can see it.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

to BIG ED, i have bifocals, so i can see fine, er, wait a sec, <squints> dang i got a Z scale engine.

so it's either epic layout or detailed layout, gaah, choices, choices,

or I could try TT or HON3 or something like that. for a medium.


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

NIMT said:


> ruben123321,
> No trying to be a jeck, but it's generally bad form to poach or derail someone else's tread. Start your own thread and you'll get alot more feed back directed to you, your layout, and progress.:thumbsup:
> Sorry to derail MrDuane, yes we are all good about doing that here!


not trying to derail MrDuane..we were just talking about Getting Started


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## ruben123321 (Sep 27, 2011)

and after reading it all who is derailing MrDuanes threrad? He just wants Answers about Nscale and you guys fly off the handle about O0 thru Z ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Play nice guys.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

Oh, I'm sure I can derail myself plenty, I just noticed that they didn't do N scale and commented on it. I had thought that only N scalers would post in here. Am TOTALLY glad for all the comments. brain pickin is always good. best to put this to rest here though, the pulley system is totally out of the scene now, ^_^


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