# Bad seller warning



## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

Someone contacted me about my request for O42 switches and curves. He said he remembered my asking a while back and that he had just bought some from another person. He notified me by starting a conversation and he has now deleted it. Hmm, whatever could that mean?

The person he referred me to is
Robert Patrick [email protected]

Who then asked me to Paypal the account of Maurice Ondiek [email protected]

Well he has my money and I have nothing. There were warnings but I ignored them. Paypal will not help so I have my financial institution involved. 

I figure if Paypal won't protect me I'm going to drop them after this is all resolved. The customer service is not at all good.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The warning signs were there and you chose to ignore them?

Now it's up to Paypal to bail you out? Because it's their fault, right?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think hes saying, that looking back there was warning signs he missed. But now looking at how things worked out were obvious.


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Regardless. The mistake does not fall on paypal as responsible for repayment. 
To cancel an account with them due to refund refusal is childish move. 
That will only accomplish limited purchase options in the future. 
Getting the bank involved is the correct move at this point. 
They can reverse the funds much quicker and, flag that suspect on future payments from their institution.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

The title is “Bad Seller Warning”….that is true, the seller was bad, but it’s not PayPal’s fault…..


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

sjm9911 said:


> I think hes saying, that looking back there was warning signs he missed. But now looking at how things worked out were obvious.


He did say that he ignored the warning signs but did he only realize that in hindsight?


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

The old adage "Let the buyer beware" so rings true in ANYTHING world wide web related.
I do think Paypal can be soooo easy to send your money away but it does have the "send" button.
They aren't policeing the internet...we all wish there was a internet police though, don't we.
I try to consider the world wide web as the wild west of the 1800's, because it really is!!!
No police, totally lawless, few security measures...it stinks.
It is even worse that so many people rely on it to buy goods and services, you are almost have to use it if you want a specific item you can't find locally anymore. 
So don't feel to bad about it all, we all have been through it, we all risk our hard earn income to take that chance we can buy what otherwise would be unobtainium...but it does stink to high heaven.
So wish there was a better way. And, I do not see it EVER getting better.
I like linking my discover card to my paypal account as they are pretty good at resolving these type of issues.
Wishing you "All The Best" at resolving this terrible situation about internet sales....No fun!


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I had a similar situation recently with an internet company, ecrater, who is some type of third party seller. I did a search for a Lionel 990 set and they came up with a fantastic price. I should hav known. Anyway, i did order the set and used my credit card. The transaction went through PayPal. 

I do not have a PayPal account but I’ve had these types of transactions before and there were no problems. In fact I just ordered something from a dealer for pick up at York paid by credit card and the transaction went through PayPal.

So, the first transaction turned out to be a fraud after looking up the supposed hobby shop in Ohio, mosblack, I found out they were no longer in business.

I immediately disputed the charge with my credit car company and got a temporary credit. The merchant has 60 days to respond and then I’ll get a permanent credit on y account. At this point it’s between Visa and PayPal.

However, if they send me the new 990 set for the $399 plus $9.00 shipping I’ll reverse the dispute. Yea, that’s gonna happen.

Anyway, watch out for third party sellers. Most of them are based in China even if they seem to have a US address.

I don’t have nor will I ever have PayPal even thoughI know so many thousands swear by it. I feel safer with my credit card company.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

Bank is a good move. It might be recoverable as a fraudulent transaction, which my credit union did for me, once. It is aggravating, to be sure. Shipping by either USPS Priority or UPS insured has become so bad that I print a disclaimer that buyer selects shipping, but I cannot file a claim for them or guarantee safe delivery. Fully 10% of everything I mail ends up lost, crushed, or with tire tracks (more than once). Once sent a locomotive: the engine arrived, but the tender had vanished. Another out of pocket refund.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I’ve never had a problem with PayPal, but I make sure to check all the boxes before I hit go….


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## MohawkMike (Jan 29, 2018)

I thought that one of the selling points of using PayPal was that they would help you out and return your money in the event that you received a bad, wrong, or NO product. 

If NOT, then what is the advantage to using PayPal? Can somebody tell me?

OP - if nothing else, you have learned from your mistake......


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I thought they did something also. When I do use pay pal I get an email that states this
"You authorized a transaction to eBay Commerce Inc.. Money won't leave your account until eBay Commerce Inc. processes your order."

What that means however, I have no idea, but It does make me feel as if they check on something.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

if you used paypal 'friends and family' there are no handling charges, nor is there any protection in case of a problem ...
did the op use 'friends and family' ??


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## MidwestMikeGT (Jan 4, 2021)

@ftauss, the point that @wvgca brings up is a very good one. I have used PayPal's "Goods and Services" mode and when I did not receive the goods, PayPal refunded me the full amount. This was about 18 months ago when I purchased something and it never arrived. I simply made a report with the post office and the police department. I then provided PayPal with the report number and they refunded me the full amount.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I used a credit card for my purchase from e-crater. They ran it through PayPal. I got an e-mail from PayPal, I don’t know how they got my E-mail address, asking me to respond to the dispute I lodged over the transaction. My credit card company said they would handle it as it is a bank to bank issue.

I was informed that the merchant has two billing cycles to respond but since the merchant is out of business I don’t know how they can respond.

I’ve done a lot of searches for hard to find items. In many instances some of these merchants use third party internet sellers. A case in point; I was also looking for a Lionel 993 system to have an extra remote should I decide to buy a Lionel CAB3 and sell my 990 system.

The seller came up as the Train Depot in Chantilly VA. But the transaction was being handled by a Market Place Internet Service. After looking up the Train Depot, they did exist and were in business. So, I began the order process until I got to the payment part and it mentioned that the transaction would go through PayPal.

I decided to do some checking and found out the Market Place seller was in China although they had a California address. I got out of the site without going any further. Then I started to get e-mails from them saying I had not completed the order and I still had the item in my cart.

I responded that I was going to go to the store myself and pick up the item. This resulted in a number of other e-mails with instructions on how to resolve before and after purchase issues. I ignored them. “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me”

I waited a couple of weeks and after doing the same search the hobby shop Train Depot still showed up. I decided to call to see if they had the 993 in stock. I spoke to a gentleman at the store and he told me they have not had any 990/993 systems for almost a year. He went on to say they have been getting a lot of phone calls and are attempting to get the listing taken down. They have not used this service and are attempting to get their information taken down.

So, do your do diligence and if the third party is in any foreign country beware.

Lastly, why do merchants run the credit card purchase through Papal in the first place.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

One of 2 issues I had with paypal was an out of stock item. It was an interior part for my 78 Trans Am. Cant remember the seller but they've been around for years. Paypal's policy is that after so many days ( 30?) without the transaction taking place, the order gets canceled. The part was backordered for 6 to 8 months. Had I known that, I never would have ordered it. During the virus days, some parts were hard to get. I could not find this part anywhere so I put my search on the back burner for months. 2 weeks ago a small box arrives and it's that part I ordered. How can that be? that order was supposed to be canceled. In this ordeal, everything turned out okay. But it now has me questioning paypal again. A call to paypal a couple years ago about the payment method they wanted associated/ tied to my account. They did not want a credit card as a preferred payment. They wanted my checking account as the payment. I told them to close my account. They finally accepted the credit card method. I'm going to dump them now, I'm hearing too much negative stuff about them. One other practice I use is not to order anything using my phone. Computer only. Maybe I'm being over cautious. Scammers are always thinking of new ways to steal from us. If you get a call about car warranty and the area code is the same as yours, ask them what city they are in. (If you want to mess with them and waste their time) They usually say Los Angeles although they have an accent from Timbuctoo. I usually say, Hey thats where I live, what street are you located on? I'm 1500 miles for LA. They usually hang up and I block their number.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

TJSmith said:


> Lastly, why do merchants run the credit card purchase through Papal in the first place.


All credit card purchases must be run through a processor. The processor is the one who actually has connections to the banking system. The processor charges the store a fee for this service, usually based on a percentage of the sale with a small flat fee added. Figure it is something like 25 cents plus 3% of the amount, up to some maximum fee. If you ever see someone using a small white plastic device attached to their cell phone (a lot of vendors at shows do this), they are using a service call "Square" to allow them to accept credit cards.

Paypal is a large bank (legally) and it offers this service as well as financing options. This enables businesses to make more sales by being more convenient to the customer.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, it's not like that particular scammer isn't well known: Scammer Alert.

Any time someone isn't selling something himself, but is directing you to a second party, who in turn wants you to pay a third party.... well, if something inside you isn't yelling, "Warning, Warning, Danger, Will Robinson!", then you're going to get taken, every time.

People who are trying to get around PayPal, eBay etc. fees are also a sure sign that you're dealing with someone who is more concerned with making money than doing the right thing. That's another huge red flag in my book.

Bottom line is that on-line purchasing and PayPal are perfectly safe IF you exercise due diligence and common sense. Most people are honest and helpful, but there are bad actors out there. If you go into every transaction looking for signs of those bad actors, you will not get burned. Yes, you might miss out on a legitimate sale, but you'll never miss out on your hard-earned cash. 

There is a reason that our grandparents had advice like, "A fool and his money are soon parted," or "You can cheat an honest man, but you cannot make a fool of him."


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> People who are trying to get around PayPal, eBay etc. fees are also a sure sign that you're dealing with someone who is more concerned with making money than doing the right thing. That's another huge red flag in my book.


I agree with this. If the person is trying to rip off PayPal, why would they not also rip you off?


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

There have been fake paypal "links" as well. Never use a link, especially one that a seller provided, go directly to the site, or paypal direct if possible.


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## daveo228i (10 mo ago)

Policing of and on the internet is done by Twitter , on Twitter. To ignore any warning sign is your responsibility, not PayPal’s. They are only intermediaries. When I scan the internet for something I need, I first check the seller, not the article.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

What an interesting topic and a coincidence. I posted that I wanted to buy a Weaver Reading and Northern Caboose and within minutes I get a PM from someone referring me to his father who just happens to have one for sale.

This guy just joined the MTF on April 13, 2022 and has only one posting. The post to me.

Now maybe this is legitimate but who knows. I’m going to sit on it for a few days before I respond if at all.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Don't fall for the scam. This has been going on here for months. Other internet forms are experiencing this too.

The best thing you can do is report the post as a scam and those people will disappear quickly.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

The best thing you can do is report the post as a scam and those people will disappear quickly.
[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t a post but a conversation. Any way to forward it to one of the administrators.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Top of the page on the right are 3 dots next to your user name. Click on that and then on "members". Staff members is at the bottom of the page.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm trying to get the board software "adjusted" to not allow "conversations" if you don't have any public posts.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

2


TJSmith said:


> What an interesting topic and a coincidence. I posted that I wanted to buy a Weaver Reading and Northern Caboose and within minutes I get a PM from someone referring me to his father who just happens to have one for sale.
> 
> This guy just joined the MTF on April 13, 2022 and has only one posting. The post to me.
> 
> Now maybe this is legitimate but who knows. I’m going to sit on it for a few days before I respond if at all.


I'll bet my next 3 paychecks that it's not legit. I also suspect that if you WERE to respond, you would find that the "father's" e-mail is "[email protected]"

The fact that the person who contacts you doesn't have one himself, but just happens to know someone, is an immediate red flag.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm trying to get the board software "adjusted" to not allow "conversations" if you don't have any public posts.


 Can I forward the conversation to you. I did not respond to the e-mail in the conversation since I noticed that the person had just joined. The caboose I’m looking for is very hard to find.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

TJSmith said:


> The caboose I’m looking for is very hard to find.


All the more reason to be doubly suspicious of anyone who claims to have one. Scammers prey on that desire for wish fulfilment.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Sent copy of the conversation to gunrunner and he banned the guy.

i’ve had a lot of transactions that went very well. There were some issues on another forum with the same thing happening. Most feel confident if the individual is a member of the TCA, LCCA or other organizations. Not that guarantees a good transaction but it’s something.

Recently I made a trade that went very well. We exchanged e-mails and he was a long time member of the forum so I felt confident. All went well. He got the needed items and so did I.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

MohawkMike said:


> I thought that one of the selling points of using PayPal was that they would help you out and return your money in the event that you received a bad, wrong, or NO product.
> 
> If NOT, then what is the advantage to using PayPal? Can somebody tell me?
> 
> OP - if nothing else, you have learned from your mistake......



Actually they are just a go between for payment. Would you want to give your cc info to just anybody?


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## jta552 (Jan 20, 2015)

Like others have said "Beware of Paypal Friends and Family". Only use it when you know the seller personally or you have purchased from them in the past. 
When selling I don't care for Ebays' fees but there are protections for buyers and sellers. I occasionally sell things on Facebook Marketplace. No fees is nice but I have had a buyer attempt to scam me plus there are numerous selling scams on there. I listed an AB Locomotive set for $160. A buyer (who happened to be female) wanted it and said she was local but out of town at the moment so asked if her sister could pick it up. That was fine but the buyer insisted she had to use Zelle to pay me because for some obscure reason she could not get cash to her sister. She said she sent a Zelle payment and I had an email, supposedly from Zelle acknowledging the transaction but no payment showed up in my bank account. The buyer said that payments over $150 had to be sent to an upgraded Zelle account and the only way to upgrade the account was for her to send me a minimum of $300 which would upgrade my account and I had to send her a refund of $140. Another acknowledgment arrived in email for the $300 but nothing showed again in my bank Zelle account and of course she wanted the refund right away. The whole thing just screamed "Scam" so I told the buyer the only way the transaction was going to happen was for her to send cash with her sister. After another feeble attempt by her to explain the "confusion" no actual payment ever arrived and of course she stopped messaging. Moral of the story is that both buyers and sellers need to be cautious.


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

Similar situation a few years ago , I was selling an outboard motor on craigs list. "I'm buying this for my son who is out of town" and we'll being paying with a money order" I believe they used the name "Mrs. Benson", and they ended the message with a "and god bless". I said fine, go cash the money order and get back with me. They insisted it was a good money order, yada yada yada. etc. I told him, not her, to show up with that fake money order and I'd give them the outboard motor, "but you better bring a small zip lock baggie to put your teeth in" oh and by the way, god bless". Strange, I never heard from them again.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I have been getting a number of offers to buy a Weaver caboose that I have been looking for. I posted in the WTB forum.

The reply’s sent as a conversation all come from individuals who just joined and have only one post, the conversation. Gunrunner has banned them but they keep coming back under different names.

So, beware of anyone responding to a WTB posting especially if they have just joined or have never posted on the forum.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's basically Whack-A-Mole with these guys, best thing to do is simply ignore any such offers. I would especially be careful with offers that refer you to some "other" individual that has the item, that seems to be a common theme.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

TJSmith said:


> I have been getting a number of offers to buy a Weaver caboose that I have been looking for. I posted in the WTB forum.
> 
> The reply’s sent as a conversation all come from individuals who just joined and have only one post, the conversation. Gunrunner has banned them but they keep coming back under different names.
> 
> So, beware of anyone responding to a WTB posting especially if they have just joined or have never posted on the forum.


Well, yes, that's what we've been saying all along: the fact that the people are ONLY popping up in the WTB area, especially with a FOAF (that's friend of a friend) product, should be a HUGE red flag. You know a Weaver caboose is a rare thing. Does it pass the common sense test on any level that so many people suddenly have one to sell?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

daveo228i said:


> Policing of and on the internet is done by Twitter , on Twitter.


 gee, thats news to me, all done by twatter you say ?


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## Tigger (Dec 19, 2021)

The amount of posts a person has can be a very helpful sign. 1 post,( or very few) huge warning. 1000's of posts, not a problem. Im an administrator on an ATV, Snowmobile forum since 2003. Arctic Chat. Everyday we get spammers, scam attempts, etc. The new system we have which is the same one used here, catches 95% of these people. They get put on a query for the moderators/admin's approval or denial. Once in awhile a few slip between the cracks. Some are people who join to promote their business. i.e. selling products or a service for sleds or atv's. We dont allow free advertising either. They are directed to become a paying site sponsor and set as invisible to the members, until they pay their advertising fee. Usually we never here from them again. I just received private conversation from someone who has 3 posts and wants to sell me a DC Master analog control module from a third party on this site. Thanks but no thanks. I didnt reply and I wont. Hit the "report" option if you're not sure.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

daveo228i said:


> Policing of and on the internet is done by Twitter , on Twitter. To ignore any warning sign is your responsibility, not PayPal’s. They are only intermediaries. When I scan the internet for something I need, I first check the seller, not the article.


What in the world are you talking about? Twitter has absolutely nothing to do with this site. I am not now, nor will I ever be, a user of Twitter.


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## scott7891 (10 mo ago)

TJSmith said:


> I have been getting a number of offers to buy a Weaver caboose that I have been looking for. I posted in the WTB forum.
> 
> The reply’s sent as a conversation all come from individuals who just joined and have only one post, the conversation. Gunrunner has banned them but they keep coming back under different names.
> 
> So, beware of anyone responding to a WTB posting especially if they have just joined or have never posted on the forum.


At this point I would cut your losses and look at eBay, a train show, or a ma and pa type hobby shop. That or wait for someone in this forum to post what you are looking to buy.


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