# Lionel 2025 2-6-4



## mojotrain (Jul 24, 2012)

I recently Joined Train Minder to keep a accurate inventory of my trains. To be as accurate as possible in regard to the information on each piece I find I spend more time searching publications for details than I spend with the trains. My passion within the post war era has been the 6464 box car series.

My first question to this forum pertains to a common old 2025 2-6-4 Lionel steam engine. 

I'm determined by the wheel configuration to call it a type 5 built in 1952. The problem is it has nickle rimmed Baldwin disc drive wheels. David Doyles information in the publication "Lionel Trains 1945-1968" second edition indicates in 1952 the Baldwin style wheels were dropped and that sintered iron wheels were used.

Would someone tell me if before this engine came into my posession that the original iron wheels were replaced with Baldwin disc.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

There are 2 versions of the 2025 Pacific's made by Lionel. It would only be possible to make such a swap, easier if the motor unit was changed. However a 4 wheeled tailing truck may have bee swapped on later, a much easier swap to make. Per Tandem Associates "Variation E: This variation is similar to Variation A but would boast a redesigned pilot with a simulated front coupler and has a BLACK smoke stack that is considerable smaller than the SILVER aluminum ones." http://tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2025_loco.htm
The first from 1947-1949 used Baldwin drivers.









The second made in 1952 used the plainer "spoked" drivers.









The 6464 box cars are an interesting lot, especially the 6464-150 MoPac Eagle cars, I've seen version of that one going for as much as 2k.

Carl


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## mojotrain (Jul 24, 2012)

*ref*



Kwikster said:


> There are 2 versions of the 2025 Pacific's made by Lionel. It would only be possible to make such a swap, easier if the motor unit was changed. However a 4 wheeled tailing truck may have bee swapped on later, a much easier swap to make. Per Tandem Associates "Variation E: This variation is similar to Variation A but would boast a redesigned pilot with a simulated front coupler and has a BLACK smoke stack that is considerable smaller than the SILVER aluminum ones." http://tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2025_loco.htm
> The first from 1947-1949 used Baldwin drivers.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Carl, my 2025 looks the same as the lower of the two examples except for the Baldwin drive wheels. I guess I'll list it as modified with Train Minder.

I'm sitting here with a 6464 150 three feet from my nose with it's buzz saw herald placed in the first panel to the left of the door. I had no idea what I was buying and the seller had no idea what they were selling. One popped up on e-bay a few years back. I looked up at mine and my jaw dropped. The e-bay unit sold for 1,600.00. This car is not at all representative of the rest of my trains.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You never know. The shell may have been changed too. If it was dropped. Here is my version a custom put together.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Based on your description, it sounds like your 2025 is a close match to mine except for the trailing truck. I've determined mine is a 1948-1949 "Variation E" (using the terminology from the Tandem Associates site).

The pilot and trailing trucks are often lost from locomotives, so perhaps someone replaced the truck on yours with the twin axle version. Those are very common parts, used on the 2037 for example.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The 2-6-2 version of the 2025 should say O gauge on the name plate on the bottom. The 2-6-4 version should say O-27. The later version also has magnetraction, and the earlier version 2-6-2 does not. I have one of each.

The plated rims on the 2-6-2 are also very slippery, and the engine doesn't pull well.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Unless Tandem is wrong:
"This locomotive did not have Magnetraction and early versions of this locomotive came with "Baldwin Discs" that had nickel rims for the driving wheels." and "Variation F: This variation’s most notable feature is that it has spoked drivers instead of the Baldwin discs featured on all of the other variations. Issued during the Korean War when magnetic material was at a premium, this locomotive does not have Magnetraction." http://tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2025_loco.htm

The 2025, was always an O-27 piece, usually signified by the 4-digit road number on their steamers. "The 2025 is a mid-size steam engine. Lionel classified it as an 027 gauge item."It's cousin the 675 was classified as an O gauge.

But, then again Lionel had a habit of doing things different than published.

Carl


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I bought my 2025s a very long time ago from the guys that bought them from Lionel. I am positive about the 2-6-2 model being O gauge and the 2-6-4 being O-27. I am not so positive about the 2-6-4 having magnetraction. It is buried in a box somewhere. When I get time, I may try to find it to discover the truth about the magnetraction.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

I can confirm that my 2-6-2 2025 says "O Gauge" on the bottom plate. My identical 675 doesn't say anything about the gauge.


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## mojotrain (Jul 24, 2012)

*ref*

 Comparing my 2025 to my 675. Both have Baldwin disc wheels, they have the same drive rod configuration, they are of the same length, neither has magnatraction, the only difference I see on the top of the body is the top of the larger domes and the smoke stacks look to be of different metals. The 675 is a 2-6-2 has the 675 either rubber stamped or heat stamped on the keystone. The 2025 2-6-4 arrangment and there is a red and gold 5690 decal on the keystone. Both have nameplates on the bottom between the pickup rollers and neither plate define they are for O gauge or 0-27 gauge.

The more I read the more I believe both of these units are loaded with one or more ill matched parts. 

Your efforts in helping me try and solve the problem have been outstanding. So I thank each of you.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Mojo, in truth they are identical. The ONLY difference being the 675 was sold with O gauge sets, and the 2025 with O-27. The both use exactly the same parts, including the shell. Their only difference lies in the number. There was a change between the 1947 and 1948-49 versions, being the smoke stack and pilot were changed, the stack became black, and the pilot got a "simulated coupler". Those two features carried over to later versions on both the 675 and 2025. Quoting Tandem's 675 page "Although the three digit number of this engine designates it for use with O Gauge track, it will also run on O27 radius curves."

Carl


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