# Digital Panel Meter



## Patrick1544

I am looking at Digital Combo Panel mount Volt/Ammeters . I want to monitor my AC volt and Amps from my ZW. The only meters I see on Ebay are stating " Measuring Range 80-300Volt AC". Am I correct in thinking that they are not calibrated to read _below_ 80 vac? Im assuming that they will _not_ work, to measure _18VAc_ from my ZW?


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## gunrunnerjohn

You are correct, you need a lower voltage meter. There are not many combo meters in that range at a decent price.


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## Patrick1544

Your're correct, John, there are thousands. I found _one_ that reads .1-100vac and .1-100Amps. Guess that's the one I'll get. There are plenty of DC combos there. 

Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for the verification.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Got a link for that one? I like the sound of those specifications!


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## johnfl68

May have been overlooked as it is a DCC product, but the *RRampMeter* also does AC and DC Volts/Amps:

http://dccspecialties.com/products/rrampmeter.htm

It can be purchased as just the basic board for panel mounting (about $60), or with a case (about $85).

It may be of interest.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm guessing more likely it was overlooked because of this specification!

*List: from $69.95*


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## Patrick1544

Here you go, John. I did make an error in the list. Its 10A not 100A. Still useful for O 3 rail Model RR
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201327760604?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Patrick1544

Thanks for the info johnfl68, I'll look that one up, also.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Great, thanks. I have been asked more than once for a suitable meter, this one looks good.


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## Patrick1544

I dont know if it needs an external shunt. How can I tell?


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's hard to say from the description, I'll look closely when I get mine, I ordered a couple of them.


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## Patrick1544

Ok. Appreciate that. I ordered a few also. Only thing, no hookup instructions. Maybe you could get me a wiring diagram when you get them also?


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## wvgca

that meter should come with a built in ten amp shunt on board, I have a few of those already .. it does need a minimum of 4.5 volt DC to make it light up ... a 9v battery or small wall wart will work, or a bridge off the output, but with that no lights until voltage is over 4.5 volt..the the two small red / black wires, power the circuit itself, large red [the way i hooked it up for dc measuring] goes to positive ... the ground is broken and supply ground is black, and load ground is yellow


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## Patrick1544

wvgca,
I'll try that wiring when I receive them. 
Thanks


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## wvgca

i was wrong .. the meters i have are the dc version .. not ac ...the two small wires are the same, but the the three larger ones are different colors on mine ..hookup may be different on those three ... slightly confused on the front panel though, the indicators under the V and A are straight/ dashed lines which normally indicate DC, AC is usually represented by a sine wave symbol?? I was curious enough to order one, worked out to 7.13 Canadian for me ..


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## Patrick1544

Icons as I understand is the ___ straight line is DC and ---- dashed is AC. Hope I got it right.


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## Patrick1544

Just got more info. ~ Ac as we know already. Straight over dashed is DC, Straight over squiggle is AC or DC.


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## wvgca

well, we will find out when they show up.... at least they are pretty cheap, lol


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## gunrunnerjohn

I use a small separate power module to power this design of meter, eliminates any issues with conflict between the measured voltage and the meter power.

I suspect it might have the shunt on-board, but I'm not sure, so when they come I'll know.


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## Patrick1544

yes. I plan on a seperate power supply for meters, signal, switch machines...


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## Patrick1544

GRJ and wvgca,

Has your combo meter order shipped yet? I am seeing a tracking number that is not giving me any information. I contacted the seller and he says he'll check the tracking number again. All the other items I got from China always give me a return on the search. Wondering if either of you have the same issue with this order?


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## wvgca

i got an email showing shipped nov 28, but tracking number shows china post with no scan of item yet ....


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## Patrick1544

Didn't get an email, just an inactive tracking numb with no information. Strange. I usually have no problem with China purchases.


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## gunrunnerjohn

This is my status...


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## Patrick1544

Here's mine...


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## gunrunnerjohn

That's never a good sign, last time that happened to me, I never got the item. After a month I demanded my money back and got it.


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## Patrick1544

Been in touch with the seller. Assures me he'll refund if I don't get it in 25-30 days.


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## wvgca

so far it looks like john's is the only one to be physically scanned by china post so far ...
I am curious to see it, a lot of digital display AC meters shown but this is the only one that seems to be able to read under 80v minimum, but it does show DC logo on the front panel?? I will spend the same money right away downtown at Robins , for a coffee and a couple of slices of pizza, at least I know how that will turn out in 24hrs!, lol


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have bought them in the past, not combo meters, individual voltmeters. I have a pair in my voltage measuring car. I believe they were 0-30VAC, and they did require a separate isolated supply, I had to build a special isolated supply for them.


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## Patrick1544

wvgca,
I see it. I was in touch with the seller. I told him if I do not see any action in the tracking by the end of this week, I want another shipment prepared and mailed. He agreed with no question, Seems very nice.


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## Patrick1544

John,
That looks very good. Does vary much as it travels through the layout, finding voltage drops?


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## gunrunnerjohn

It jumps around a bit due to track conditions, but it works pretty well for finding bad track. One thing I've been meaning to add is an internal load, that would probably make the readings more accurate. Now I pull it right behind a locomotive that's supplying the load.


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## Patrick1544

Great idea, John. I'm sure it has helped out at your club many times in finding a bad section.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I should have had it last night, we were fighting DCS issues again.  We had a couple bad connectors, and a bad TIU channel. Finally, I think the DCS is sort of working.


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## Patrick1544

Great, glad you resolved the issue. I'm sure you would rather be running trains at the club instead.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You ain't wrong!


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## Patrick1544

Well, it's been a week since ordering these and no activity on the tracking number. several emails to and from the seller. Keeps telling me to be patient. I told him, it's lost. Re-send the package. Supposedly he seems very agreeable and will be sending another package out. If I don't get that in 2-3 weeks I'll be requesting a refund. How are you guys doing with your shipping progress?


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## wvgca

mine shows that china post has received shipping information, probably electronically, but has not physically scanned the item, so it's not really shipped as of today ... probably another seller that doesn't order product until after he has a buyer for it ...


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## Patrick1544

First seller from China I've had a problem with. They've been good so far.


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## gunrunnerjohn




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## Patrick1544

You got lucky, John. wvgca and I are stuck in nowhereville. Let us know how they work.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I suspect it'll still be some time before I see them, they usually languish in customs for some time.


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## wvgca

it's a bit odd , to say the least ... the seller has indicated [to ebay, and myself] that the package has been shipped ... however the ebay order details page shows no delivery scan at origin post office [china post] .. and the supposed tracking number is not a valid china post tracking number format ... for mine anyways, johns tracking number is a valid format but the china post web site shows no record of his number ...curious .. it may show up, things are a little, well, less formal over there I think, lol


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## Patrick1544

I have the same details as you. The track usually starts with LK. And ends with CN. I think the guy made up his own tracking numbers. LOL.


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## highvoltage

Patrick1544 said:


> I have the same details as you. The track usually starts with LK. And ends with CN. I think the guy made up his own tracking numbers. LOL.


CN is the two letter country code for China. So that part makes sense. Not sure about the rest.


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## gunrunnerjohn

wvgca said:


> johns tracking number is a valid format but the china post web site shows no record of his number ...curious .. it may show up, things are a little, well, less formal over there I think, lol


USPS seems to have no problem with the number I got, they have the package in their system.


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## wvgca

i think usps is just bit more organized, lol


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## Patrick1544

Here's what I see today.









Did get an email also, supposedly he's sending it again today by a _faster_ method, he says.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Odd tracking number, but it sounds like they're in the process of shipping it.


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## Patrick1544

I don't know. LOL. Could be.


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## Cycleops

Sounds like a lot of hassle. Why on earth do people buy all this stuff direct from China? If they can poison babies with contaminated formula baby milk I'm sure they wont be worried about conning a few unsuspecting modellers.


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## wvgca

you are both doing better than me, lol ....mine still shows same as first day, just shipping info recieved ...


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## gunrunnerjohn

Cycleops said:


> Sounds like a lot of hassle. Why on earth do people buy all this stuff direct from China? If they can poison babies with contaminated formula baby milk I'm sure they wont be worried about conning a few unsuspecting modellers.


Maybe because nothing like it is available anywhere else for anything close to the price?

You buy a ton of stuff from China in case you haven't checked!


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## Cycleops

I do but if you read I did say direct.


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## Patrick1544

Cycleops,
I personally would rather wait and in this case only, I have never had a problem directly from China. The savings far outweigh the wait. These items and many others I have bought directly, have saved a big bundle. And it's good quality circuits. I have gotten 12 buck circuits for the cost of 1 purchased from a US reseller. He gets them from China anyway, so why not do it myself and save? I'm on a fixed income and that alone is an important issue for me.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Cycleops said:


> I do but if you read I did say direct.


Same answer. Please fine me this item anywhere in the US where I can buy it, even at inflated prices. Just curious, since you don't have a dog in this fight, why bother to inject negative commentary?

FWIW, I buy tons of stuff direct from the Far East with minimal issues and at unbeatable prices.


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## wvgca

unfortunately the US [and canada as well] have priced themselves out of many markets, especially electronics .. a large majority of my ebay purchases [since 1998] have been from china, and no I have not gotten all of them, and some were basically junk, but overall the far east has made it possible for me to make things easier, and fits better in my budget ...I am more than willing to pay a premium for 'local' purchases, and also for 'canadian made;, unfortunately it's seldom possible.. a local shop owner recently berated me for [in his words] 'feeding the yellow peril', but he had no reasonable justification for the same item in his shop, clearly marked made in china, for four times the 'far east' price ..
and life goes on


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## Patrick1544

Exactly my sentiments, wvgca!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the jury is in, and there's no need to be in a rush to get your meters. 

They're really DC meters, I've already send in a complaint and a request for a refund.


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## wvgca

So you have received your meter and looked at it and the documentation??? if so, that was pretty quick compared to most shipments from china


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, there is no documentation with it, so I connected a power supply to the obvious power supply leads and it lit up. Then I popped it out of the plastic case and observed how the ammeter shunt worked (yes, it does have the 10A shunt), that gave me enough information to connect to measure voltage and current. An 8 ohm resistor provided the load and I was off to the races. I, of course, first tried to measure AC, which was a complete bust, didn't get any current reading and only a small voltage reading that seemed to wander all around.

So, I decided to try DC, and what do you know, the readings matched the meters on my bench supplies that were feeding the load, just like a DC meter would do. However, since I don't really need a DC meter, that wasn't all that gratifying. 

I'm guessing they'll probably not have an AC meter, too bad as this was a perfect match for the requirements.


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## Lemonhawk

You could put some bridge rectifiers in the circuit. easy to do for the voltage input but getting in between the shut pickoff to the voltmeter may be a bit difficult.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bridge rectifiers would do a lousy job of accurate AC->DC conversion, been there, done that. You really have to design the circuitry for an AC meter totally different.


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## Patrick1544

Bummer. Didn't get mine yet. They're still in transit but I guess they'll have to be used for DC measurement.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I'm going to attempt to get my money back, I don't need more DC meters.


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## Patrick1544

I'm sure the money will be refunded. The question is returning the item to China for a refund. It may cost more to send it back, than the original purchase cost.


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## Cycleops

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, the jury is in, and there's no need to be in a rush to get your meters.
> 
> They're really DC meters, I've already send in a complaint and a request for a refund.


Sorry, but I had to chuckle.


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## Patrick1544

Its actually none of your concern is it?


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## Cycleops

Well I guess you could say that about any post on here, need to be so touchy Patrick, just enjoying a bit of schadenfreude.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Patrick1544 said:


> I'm sure the money will be refunded. The question is returning the item to China for a refund. It may cost more to send it back, than the original purchase cost.


The usual solution is to just refund the money. I had one Chinese outfit that tried to get me to accept half refund, I said no dice. If they send me the correct product, I'm happy. If they send the wrong thing, I don't want to pay for their mistakes!


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## Patrick1544

Exactly. I think its more of a nuisance to return it. Hopefully, just a refund is in order. I had a similar instance a while ago and the guy refunded the money and told me to keep the item, too!


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've had a number of things that are wrong or broken, so far it's never been an issue to get a refund, though a couple of times it took a bit of jawboning.


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## Patrick1544

GRJ and wvgca,
Got the meters. They are DC. Going to keep them though, I need DC's also. Thought I would get Anaolg Needle Meters for AC Volts and AC Amps. They would look good with the ZW's, anyway.
Do they need external shunts?


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## gunrunnerjohn

The meters have the 10A shunt as part of the package. I complained to the seller and he's "supposed" to be sending me the proper meters. At the worst, I'll have four DC meters for the price of two, we'll see.


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## Patrick1544

I just sent him a complaint email too. LOL. He's getting bombed from the US.


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## gunrunnerjohn

If he sent the proper product, he wouldn't get the hate mail.


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## Patrick1544

Exactly!


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## Patrick1544

John,
Did you ever get the AC replacement meter from them?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Nope, I finally got a full refund and I now have a pair of DC meters that I don't really have a use for. I may have to refurb my bench power supply with digital meters.


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## Patrick1544

Yes, why not. I'm trying to get at least half back from them, even though Ill use a few of them anyway.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I just asked for a refund after clearly explaining that I needed AC meters. I got a full refund and moved on.


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## Patrick1544

They are breaking chops about giving me _half_ back. Don't want to send them all back. Will cost me more than what I paid for them. Hey, that's Ebay, I understand. No big deal .


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## wvgca

I got mine a couple of weeks ago, and no surprise DC meter, and contacted seller, but he made a strong point of me having to give him a positive feedback as a condition of refund, I got annoyed and left negative feedback, wrote off the purchase, just had no desire to deal any further for $7.20 Canadian,


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## gunrunnerjohn

I only got two, and I guess they could tell I wouldn't accept half.  I had one vendor that sent me 15 remote transmitters, but didn't send the matching receivers! He wanted to give me peanuts back, so I went through eBay and asked for a return shipping label to ship them back so I could get a full refund. Suddenly he decided to simply refund them as he obviously couldn't supply the receivers. I don't know what possessed them to send only half of the package! I'm guessing they know full well that you can't ship stuff back!


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## Patrick1544

I'll wait a few more days, then negative feedback, also.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've only had to resort to negative feedback once in the last few years. After posting it, the guy suddenly got religion and issued a refund and asked me to revise the feedback.


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## ED-RRR

*Special Meters Are Required --> For [DCC] !!*

Please do "Not" kill the "Messenger"..
- There was "Absolutely Nothing" wrong with the "Meter" you purchased !!
- The Ebay seller is selling the "Correct" meter for the required "Application"..
- You "Fautley" accused this Ebay seller for selling a "Correct" functional meter..

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201327760604?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649
Enduring AC Digital Ammeter Voltmeter Panel Amp Volt Meter Red LED Display TBUS 

- Sorry, but you "All" got it "Wrong"..:thumbsdown:
- This is "Not" a RMS meter for [DCC] applications !!

Fact:
To measure [DCC] Volts/Amps requires a RMS (Root Mean Square) meter/meters..
"Thread" 
--> DCC Forum (Digital Command Control) 
--> [DCC] Meters.. (Required Specifications).. 
......


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## gunrunnerjohn

The seller advertised the meter as an AC meter, and delivered a DC meter. On what planet is that "correct"?

Sorry "Messenger", but you're all wet. This meter was intended for use with a standard AC transformer running on 60hz, you are comparing apples to oranges, I'm not trying to measure DCC track voltage. I know the difference between 60hz AC and DCC track voltages.

Perhaps a more careful reading of the topic would be in order?


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## rboatertoo

Any suggestion on where to find the right meter?? I wasn't thinking about getting one, but after reading this my interest in having one is peaked.


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## gunrunnerjohn

There used to be a bunch of AC digital meters on eBay Jim, nowadays I have trouble finding them. That's why I liked this one when I saw it, figured I'd finally scored!


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## Patrick1544

roabertoo,

I decided to use Analog needle AC meters , since I can't find a digital AC meter with a lower than 80VAC input.


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## ED-RRR

*AC Digital Meters..*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> There used to be a bunch of AC digital meters on eBay Jim, nowadays I have trouble finding them. That's why I liked this one when I saw it, figured I'd finally scored!


I totally agree..
But there is "Only" (x1) Ebay seller (Worldwide) selling an AC "Volt" and AC "Amp" meter combo "Without" a "Label" or "Instructions" !!!! 

I could "Not" find any other "Low" AC --> "Voltage" digital meters..:dunno:
......


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, the ones I bought some time back seem to have disappeared from eBay. I used them in this unit. These were 0-30V, perfect for the application.


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## highvoltage

GRJ, do you use that to test track voltages around your loop?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, just drag it around and check what you see. It has meters on both sides. I wanted the K-Line Voltage Monitoring car, but after seeing what they sold for I decided to build this one.


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## highvoltage

I don't see any decals that you talked about when you built it.


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## rboatertoo

I found this one today:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Motorcy...727388?hash=item2107bcb11c:g:S1oAAOSwHPlWglpK


The title says ac, but the description says dc.


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## ED-RRR

*"Analog Meters"*



Patrick1544 said:


> roabertoo,
> I decided to use Analog needle AC meters , since I can't find a digital AC meter with a lower than 80VAC input.


I am presently "Only" looking to "Update" this project when you "Posted" going to "Analog" meters..

Also going "Analog" is so much easier..
Also "No" auxiliary power supply (V-DC) is required.. 

Question:
Why not modify a "ZW" power supply --> to a ZW-L (P/N 6-37921) power supply ??







This project will "Require" (x2) AC "Volt" meters..
This project will "Require" (x2) AC "Amp" meters..
It is "Not" easy to find (x4) "Matching" looking meters..








(#1) = (x2 AC "Volt" meters)
Go to Ebay and search 0-20 V-AC..(0-25 V-AC = Very Costly).. 
Search --> AC 0-20 analog volt meter ...... (Price + Shipping Cheapest)..

(#2) = (x2 AC "Amp" meters)
Go to Ebay and search 0-10 AC.
Search --> AC 0-10 analog amp meter ...... (Price + Shipping Cheapest)..

Warning:
I found all (x4) "Matching" same style meters..
-BUT-
The Amp meters (x2) "Will" each require a (10 Amp) "Shunt" each..







......


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## gunrunnerjohn

highvoltage said:


> I don't see any decals that you talked about when you built it.


That's because they're not there. 



rboatertoo said:


> I found this one today:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Motorcy...727388?hash=item2107bcb11c:g:S1oAAOSwHPlWglpK
> 
> 
> The title says ac, but the description says dc.


It's a DC meter, apparently there's a lot of the Chinese vendors that don't know the difference between AC and DC. Maybe they're getting so many requests for AC meters that they think they can get away with something.


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## ED-RRR

*"Analog Meters" ..*

Sorry - Repeated Subject ..


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## ED-RRR

*AC --> Track Volt Meter*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, the ones I bought some time back seem to have disappeared from eBay. I used them in this unit. These were 0-30V, perfect for the application..











You have connected a V-AC digital LED "meter" to the side of a freight car..(Excellent Track Testing Procedure) ..

My Only Question:
Will this work the "Same" for Direct Command Control [DCC] power tracks ??








......


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## gunrunnerjohn

As you so astutely pointed out previously, measuring DCC voltages is not the same as measuring 60hz AC voltages. 

I suspect that you'd probably have to rectify the track voltage and maybe figure out what corrective divider you install to reflect something near the actual track voltage. Since I've never been faced with that scenario, I didn't think about it too much. I will say that I tried using DC meters first with a bridge rectifier and voltage divider, but I couldn't get even close to the RMS value displayed on the meters over even a fairly narrow voltage range.


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## ED-RRR

*[DCC Meters]*

Where I got "Confused" ..:dunno:
You are talking about "Oranges" and I am talking about "Apples"..
Not till now did I realize that you are talking about the Lionel "ZW" power controller.. [O] Gauge..(AC Track Power)..
I also believe that "Many" of the other 2,700 + readers may have also got very "Confused" just like myself..



gunrunnerjohn said:


> As you so astutely pointed out previously, measuring DCC voltages is not the same as measuring 60hz AC voltages.
> .


My apologies..
That is why I asked you this "Question" to verify that this is "Not" a [DCC] "Thread" regarding "Meters"..
This may/will help many others looking for the "Correct" required "Meters"..







......


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## Patrick1544

Got a full refund through Ebay resolution center. And kept the items. Seller wouldn't pay for return shipping.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, they were clearly labeled incorrectly as AC meters. Too bad, they'd have been perfect if they were AC meters.


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## Patrick1544

I got AC analog meters from China. Ammeters and Voltmeters. They look and work well.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have some analog meters, I just figured the volt/amp meter would be cool, but maybe they'll go into a bench power supply.


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## Patrick1544

Well, yes, I thought so too. However the analogs will give a panel that nostalgic 50's look. I like it. Just figured out how to interface the old Lionel 1122c controllers to fire off a Tortoise. Another nostalgia for me. Love those old controllers.


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## wvgca

sigh .. just got another message from the AC meter vendor, as he was disappointed that I left negative feedback , and has offered a very clear 'conditional' refund .. 

"And I am also so depressed with your negative feedback.
It really hurt me a lot.
So I think I can give you fully money back,and you can just keep that item for compensation.
But I really hope you can revise your negative feedback into positive feedback with all 5 star seller performance.That is very important.
If you agree with me,I will send your money to your paypal account" ..

thought about it for less than a second, he can kiss my butt... in general I think I'm pretty mellow and tolerant .. and according to the listing he has sold 47 of these, and they are still listed as available ...


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## Patrick1544

Ha.

I just got the *exact* same message this morning. Although I got the refund through Ebay Resolution center. Computer generated? Really strange...They are still listed as AC meters!


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## gunrunnerjohn

I got a full refund. In compensation, I didn't leave any feedback. If I had gotten that message, he'd have gotten negative feedback as well, that total garbage!


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## peterbilt379

I looked at those same meters on evil-bay also. Sorry you guys had a bad experience. I want to change all my analog meters to digital LED meters. E.i. 0-30 VAC and 0-20A AC. Doesnt anyone in the good ole USA make any decent ones? Anyone here have any they would recommend? Thanks....Rob


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## Patrick1544

I couldn't find any digital Combo AC meters anywhere, except the one in this thread and that was DC. I decided to use digital meters for DC, because they are available. For AC I went with good old Analog needle type meters. This is what I bought.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

Patrick, do you know of an wiring diagrams for the digital meter in your post? I am not sure how to wire it. I believe that the small red/black wires are for the voltmeter. I am not sure about the ammeter wiring however. Thanks!


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## Patrick1544

Broke,
Here,s what accompanies the meter on their listing. 
The thin Red and Black wires are the power for the meter itself.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

*Voltmeter/Ammeter*

Thanks Patrick. I was able to find a similar diagram but it shows a shunt. Do you think that one is needed?


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

*Voltmeter/Ammeter*

I just went back and read the entire thread. Sorry for the additional post. I should have read all before as my questions were answered. Thanks all for the info!


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## Patrick1544

This particular meter has the shunt built in.


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