# Thomas and Friends O-gauge



## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So, to bring my 4-year old into model railroading, I'm thinking of merging my O-gauge gear with his first love: Thomas and Friends.

I started looking for loco's and cars, and find that Thomas is usually only sold as part of a set. Not bad, as I probably won't be getting started on setting up my platform with the ZW until Christmas break, and I could set up one of these little Thomas sets much more quickly. Also, it looks like the kits come with FastTrack, and are sized at 40" x 50", so presumably O-36 radii. Might be fun to test some of my bigger loco's on this radius, since all of my stock is O-31 or O-27.

I see they offer two kits, distinguished mostly by the controller. I'm really only familiar with the WW2 vintage controllers, so this is all Greek to me. Can you guys check these out, and tell me which kit you'd buy? Money is not really a factor, as the price difference is only $40 list, and less retail.

http://www.lionel.com/products/finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-30069

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-30190

Thanks!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Oh! Just found this (couldn't find him separately before):

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-18741

Of course, then you have to buy his coaches separately.


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

You may want to look at this also.

http://www.billstrains.com/home.php?cat=331


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

We got my granddaughter Thomas and a bunch of his cars to run on our layout. Got them all off of ebay, Thomas, Clarabelle and Annie, a mining car, troublesome trucks and S.C.Ruffy. 

There are a couple of different versions of the thomas engine. One has no horn and doesn't move eyes, the other does.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Oh! Just found this (couldn't find him separately before):
> 
> http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-18741
> 
> Of course, then you have to buy his coaches separately.


Check ebay. we got him cheaper than that.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> So, to bring my 4-year old into model railroading, I'm thinking of merging my O-gauge gear with his first love: Thomas and Friends.
> 
> I started looking for loco's and cars, and find that Thomas is usually only sold as part of a set. Not bad, as I probably won't be getting started on setting up my platform with the ZW until Christmas break, and I could set up one of these little Thomas sets much more quickly. Also, it looks like the kits come with FastTrack, and are sized at 40" x 50", so presumably O-36 radii. Might be fun to test some of my bigger loco's on this radius, since all of my stock is O-31 or O-27.
> 
> ...


The sets aren't really a bad idea. I played with the LionChief Thomas at the LCCA convention.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks, guys! Yep... saw that some sets have moving eyes and changeable faces, others don't. Do the moving eyes work off track power with a "dumb" old ZW transformer, or is some more advanced com needed?

With regard to the sets, I guess the difference between the two I posted is primarily the LionChief controller. What can you tell me about this? Good? Bad? Junk? I think the long-term solution will be running this off my vintage ZW. I might be best off just buying without track and transformer, but I was hoping to get Annie and Clarabell with Thomas, and the set might be the cheapest route to that.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Thanks, guys! Yep... saw that some sets have moving eyes and changeable faces, others don't. Do the moving eyes work off track power with a "dumb" old ZW transformer, or is some more advanced com needed?
> 
> With regard to the sets, I guess the difference between the two I posted is primarily the LionChief controller. What can you tell me about this? Good? Bad? Junk? I think the long-term solution will be running this off my vintage ZW. I might be best off just buying without track and transformer, but I was hoping to get Annie and Clarabell with Thomas, and the set might be the cheapest route to that.


Nothing special for the eyes to work! 

The LionChief controller is a great starter for remote control. it is engine specific. It is very responsive and user friendly and let's Thomas do some other sounds. You can take Thomas and put him on an old fashion setup and use that remote to control Thomas. 

I don't think you can beat this price on ebay!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LionChief-R...238112?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4acc4de9e0


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Here's every Thomas engine or kit I could find on the Lionel site. Prices are list, better deals can be had.

6-18741 ($120) – Thomas (engine only) Sounds
6-21925 ($160) – Thomas O-27 set with Annie, Clarabell, Harold flatbed
6-30069 ($240) – Thomas Sounds FastTrack set
6-30162 ($200) – Thomas Christmas RailSounds LionChief & FastTrack set
6-30190 ($200) – Thomas Sounds LionChief & FastTrack set
6-31956 ($169) – Thomas PowerMax & FastTrack set

My final setup will be traditional three-tie O-31 postwar track, using a ZW transformer, so I suspect the RailSounds and LionChief stuff is a waste. The 31956 might be the one for me, as it comes with just a simple PowerMax transformer, some O-36 FastTrack for temporary setup (and experimenting with my engines), moving eyes, three faces, Annie and Clarabell coaches, and some figures.

I'm still not sure what the difference between "Sounds" and "RailSounds" is, but it appears I need to go TMCC to access most of the RailSounds. I'm still not sure what TMCC really is. :laugh:


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

KarenORichmond said:


> Nothing special for the eyes to work!
> 
> The LionChief controller is a great starter for remote control. it is engine specific. It is very responsive and user friendly and let's Thomas do some other sounds. You can take Thomas and put him on an old fashion setup and use that remote to control Thomas.
> 
> ...


Hmm... you have me re-thinking things, Karen. Do you have kids, and have you tried the LionChief system? When I was a kid, nothing in the world was more exciting than twisting the big levers on the old ZW, and watching the red/green lights on those 022 remote switch controllers. Then again, I could easily derail a train with the ZW. I imagine that with the LionChief, I just set the ZW to something like 12 volts (to limit speed), and let the kid have at it with the LC remote?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd recommend the LionChief over the plain conventional sets. Modern kids thing everything should have remote control.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Here's every Thomas engine or kit I could find on the Lionel site. Prices are list, better deals can be had.
> 
> 6-18741 ($120) – Thomas (engine only) Sounds
> 6-21925 ($160) – Thomas O-27 set with Annie, Clarabell, Harold flatbed
> ...


railsounds is just a conventional engine that makes sounds while running around the track. I have the Coca Cola Anniversary train (essentially The General) running on an oval tube track around what Ed on here calls Coca Cola World and that particular independent oval is powered by the CW80. My mainline is DCC. It sounds like an engine running running. LionChief is a remote that is for only one engine and can be used for that engine on any track you chose to put it on. It has some buttons for making other sounds than just the railsounds. It is really neat as a kid's set or a starter set. If you get hooked on this hobby then you are eventually going to want and get either TMCC, DCC or use a combination of both.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Hmm... you have me re-thinking things, Karen. Do you have kids, and have you tried the LionChief system? When I was a kid, nothing in the world was more exciting than twisting the big levers on the old ZW, and watching the red/green lights on those 022 remote switch controllers. Then again, I could easily derail a train with the ZW. I imagine that with the LionChief, I just set the ZW to something like 12 volts (to limit speed), and let the kid have at it with the LC remote?



yes, I have kids...3 grown and a 3-year-old grandchild who LOVES my trains. She has wooden trains, Lionel Little Lines and wants to take over on my big layout. 

I got to play with the LionChief at the LCCA convention this summer. I was very impressed with it for what it is --a kid's set or a starter set. I intend to get the Christmas engine when it comes out as it will play various Christmas sounds and be great on my Christmas layout!

Didn't you say your layout won't be operational for a bit? 

If you are asking my opinion, I would get a LionChief starter set for a child who is getting into the hobby. You can't go wrong with what you are getting in the set --engine, cars, track and kid's LOVE the remote. Hey, John, correct me if I am wrong here, but I think the LionChief engine can be run with just an old fashioned transformer and throttle, too, right?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'd recommend the LionChief over the plain conventional sets. Modern kids thing everything should have remote control.


I agree. Shelby wants the remote when she is here but I don't trust her with the DCC one yet  Even her Little Lines has remotes! And she likes it at Christmas when I have that layout out with the bottom line MTH remote (the real botton line one that does the conventional engines, forgot model number of it) so she can run them with the remote.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Okay, I'm just about convinced. If John responds that the LionChief engine can also be run directly from the ZW, I'm sold.

My layout is going to be intentionally vintage. All post-war O-27 three-tie tubular track, vintage 022 switches and controllers, the big old ZW, and my mix of pre-war and post-war trains. I want it to look like something my dad would've had under his tree in the 1940's.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Okay, I'm just about convinced. If John responds that the LionChief engine can also be run directly from the ZW, I'm sold.
> 
> My layout is going to be intentionally vintage. All post-war O-27 three-tie tubular track, vintage 022 switches and controllers, the big old ZW, and my mix of pre-war and post-war trains. I want it to look like something my dad would've had under his tree in the 1940's.


My layout is half and half on the track. Main line is about 2/3 O27, then it transitions to FasTrack. The Coca Cola line is O27. I have an elevated line that is FastRack.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you buy the new LionChief + sets, they will also run conventional. The first generation ones would only run with the remote. However, you can certainly power either version with the ZW.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I really thought at the convention they said they would run like that.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know what they said at the convention, but the original LionChief remote does not run in conventional. The new LionChief Plus sets that are in the current catalog will operate in conventional mode.

Perhaps they're looking ahead to the new stuff.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Very possibly!


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

*Thomas and kids fit like gloves*

My kids love trains, period. They love Lionel and all my stuff downstairs, but they have an especially soft spot for Thomas. I've got the good engine with moving eyes and horn (why the heck don't they put smoke in these? - Any kid knows the steamers of Sodor smoke, so what the hey?). Anyway, they go back and forth between Thomas and my nicer stuff (with my devoted attention to avoid destructive ideas emanating from the non-drinking set).

It's a fact that most kids under say, fifteen or so have cut their train teeth on Thomas and Friends, so it's a great avenue into more prototype trains for them.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ishmael, the pictures are adorable! I just started acquiring the wooden thomas stuff for my 2 yo. Now I'm going to have to get these?!?! At least for the price you get a good train, those wooden ones are expensive!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So, I'm seeing a lot of links, videos, reviews... pointing at Bachman being superior to Lionel, on these Thomas and Friends trains. I've never owned anything but Lionel brand in my o-gauge gear, but that's all 1950's and earlier, and I'm ready to admit they're not the same company they once were.

Any opinions on Bachman Thomas o-gauge trains and kits, as opposed to Lionel?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're a conventional operator, the Bachmann Williams stuff is quite robust. They don't offer any TMCC command control products.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Totally bummed. Watched the videos again, and decided Bachmann is definitely the way to go. Went to buy it, and found they don't make O-gauge! They only make "large scale" (looks like American Flyer) and HO... no 3-rail.

Oh well...


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Honesly I think you would do great to get him a LionChief set. Kids love remote controls and he will be able to run it when you get your layout up and going. In the meantine you can setup the oval it comes with to play with


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My grandson was playing with a LionChief Polar Express at the train store yesterday, he was very impressed. This is a kid that is used to using the Legacy and DCS remotes, so that's saying something.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My grandson was playing with a LionChief Polar Express at the train store yesterday, he was very impressed. This is a kid that is used to using the Legacy and DCS remotes, so that's saying something.


How old is he?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

He's 8 years old. This is a kid that can show his mom and grandmom how to use their cell phones, he's pretty tech-savvy.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> He's 8 years old. This is a kid that can show his mom and grandmom how to use their cell phones, he's pretty tech-savvy.


they catch on quick!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

He reads and does math at a 4th grade level, and he's in 2nd grade. His recreational reading is Harry Potter books, they're pretty tough sledding for an 8 year old, he has no problems.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> He reads and does math at a 4th grade level, and he's in 2nd grade. His recreational reading is Harry Potter books, they're pretty tough sledding for an 8 year old, he has no problems.



My youngest was that way (although he isn't interested in the trains!) with the reading way above grade level and math and such. It became quite a challenge to keep him busy enough and challegened enough at school until high school when there was more options for more advanced classes and such. 

Is he real interested in trains?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

He likes the trains, but I don't think they're his "first love". He loves the computer and video games, typical kid.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So, I did a bit more reading on this, and learned about operating LionChief sets on conventional control. The "old" vs. "new" LionChief that had been mentioned in earlier posts are simply "LionChief" vs. "LionChief Plus".

LionChief is NOT designed to be conventionally controlled. It can be operated using the remote from any track powered at a constant 18 volts, whether that power comes from a wallpack or a conventional transformer, but the remote remains the instrument of control.

LionChief Plus indicates the addition of a switch to the locomotive, by which the LionChief system can be bypassed, and the engine controlled conventionally. Unfortunately, the Thomas and Friends engines are not available with the LionChief Plus system, nor is most of Lionel's current catalog.

For anyone still interested, I bought the special Christmas edition of the LionChief Thomas set. I hesitated on going LionChief, knowing it can not be controlled directly from my ZW transformer (must set transformer to constant 18V and use remote), but then I saw that all of the other engines in the Thomas and Friends collection are ONLY available with the LionChief system. There is no conventional control options for any Thomas and Friends engine, other than Thomas himself. So, if I plan to get the kid another engine from that collection for each of the next few years, I'm going to have to live with the LionChief system.

Hopefully they'll re-release these in LionChief Plus, before next year... but we'll see. My track sidings were going to be powered thru momentary switches, but now I think I'll have to add a hidden toggle switch to each of these sidings, so it's easier to use the layout with the LionChief engines.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> For anyone still interested, I bought the special Christmas edition of the LionChief Thomas set. I hesitated on going LionChief, knowing it can not be controlled directly from my ZW transformer (must set transformer to constant 18V and use remote), but then I saw that all of the other engines in the Thomas and Friends collection are ONLY available with the LionChief system. There is no conventional control options for any Thomas and Friends engine, other than Thomas himself. So, if I plan to get the kid another engine from that collection for each of the next few years, I'm going to have to live with the LionChief system.
> .



Maybe I am reading this wrong, but yes you can get Thomas and his friends as conventional (non LionChief remote)engines.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

KarenORichmond said:


> Maybe I am reading this wrong, but yes you can get Thomas and his friends as conventional (non LionChief remote)engines.


Are you sure about that, Karen? The current Lionel site seems to have only Thomas in conventional, not his friends. Percy, James, Diesel... all only available with LionChief, unless I missed something.

Thanks!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Now you good me looking for thomas trains! I almost bought a g scale one off of the bay. Thanks for giving me more ideas! ( hopefully that came across sarcasticly!)


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

The pages for James, Percy, Iron 'Arry and Iron Bert on the Lionel website say "Transformer controlled forward, neutral and reverse operation"

http://www.lionel.com/products/find...Keywords=&CategoryID=0&RailLineID=&CatalogId=


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

mnp13 said:


> The pages for James, Percy, Iron 'Arry and Iron Bert on the Lionel website say "Transformer controlled forward, neutral and reverse operation"
> 
> http://www.lionel.com/products/find...Keywords=&CategoryID=0&RailLineID=&CatalogId=


Waitaminnit... what the hell? It's in their catalog, but not in their shop? Here's the full listing of what's available at the Lionel store. As you can see, all LionChief, except Thomas, himself.

http://www.lionelstore.com/thomas-friends?limit=all

Are you sure that conventional Percy can be purchased today?


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

I'm not sure of anything. I just looked it up on the website.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They're all from the 2012 catalog, so you'd have to find dealer stock somewhere.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Ahh... okay. I suspect I still made the right choice, then. I might be able to find conventional engines squirreled away in some small shop, but these seem to be pretty popular, so NOS is not plentiful. Likewise, there's ebay, but that's sometimes a sketchy way to go for buying a kid a Christmas gift.

I really hope they offer these as LC+ models, before next year. I figure I'll get him an engine per year, for as long as he stays interested in Thomas.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Here is a James on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Thom...599403?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20dbeb876b

I didn't search for the other ones. I bought Shelby's Thomas off ebay for less than $40 and a bunch of the cars pretty cheap, too. 

In fact, I thought they had some Thomas and friends sets at the one and only shop we have here. You could check out any train shows/sales nearby as well.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Are you trying to talk me out of going LionChief, now?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Are you trying to talk me out of going LionChief, now?


Not at all, I think it is great starter sets/engines for kids. In fact, I plan on getting the silver bells one for me for my Christmas train next year (or maybe catch it cheaper on ebay after the holidays). I like the extra sounds it makes. 

If when you get yours setup and you want him to run engines with the throttle you could pick up Thomas and his friends on ebay pretty cheap to run that way.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So, my new Thomas and Friends set came today, and I just finished unpacking and setting it up. I put the batteries in the LionChief controller... and it's dead! The track has power, and Thomas is sitting there chuffing quite happily, but the controller is DOA. No lights, no sounds, etc.

Another oddity is that Thomas won't stop chuffing. There's a switch in the cab, and the directions state that if you move that switch to OFF, remove track power for a few seconds and restore, that the chuffing will be disabled. I tried this several times, but he won't stop chuffing.

Back to Amazon he goes.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

That sucks ! I was looking at the same one.


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## TundraBoy (Nov 5, 2012)

Bummer. I'm following this thread closely since I am thinking of doing the same for the grand kids.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've seen several of these at the LHS, they all worked fine. You must have gotten a Monday morning model.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Maybe they send the good ones to LHS, and the duds to customers.

Actually, the remote in the box does not match the one for the Xmas edition on their site, so maybe someone at the vendor swapped a dead remote into this box , and took the good one.

I have some thoughts on Lionel's difficult place in the business world, but will save them for when I'm not typing on a phone,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Maybe they send the good ones to LHS, and the duds to customers.
> 
> Actually, the remote in the box does not match the one for the Xmas edition on their site, so maybe someone at the vendor swapped a dead remote into this box , and took the good one.
> 
> ...



If it is a wrong remote then it isn't necessarily dead since they are engine specific, but you still need the right one. You said you got it from Amazon right?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Well, I'm not sure it's the wrong one, just that it is the color of the standard thomas remote, not the Christmas edition remote shown on the Lionel site. Things are subject to change, etc. either way, I'd expect the LED on the remote to light, even if it's the wrong one for this train.

Yep, Amazon. Should have the replacement tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Allright I just ordered one, we will see what happens. My daughter loves thomas and this was the cheapest set around. I've been bidding on some auction sites but the remote has me sold. It beats her working over my zws. I almost lost a handle today!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Cool! I'll let you know what happens with mine, when it arrives tomorrow.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Wow... you guys aren't going to believe this. The courier delivered the replacement set from Amazon today, delivered without a shipping box (they just slapped a shipping label right on the Thomas product box), and my 4-year old was standing at the door when the delivery man brought it up to the door step. Lucky, mom was there to whisk him away, and we don't think he saw it.

I get home tonight, open the box up, put batteries in the new remote... and it's DEAD! Just like the first one, which this was to replace. Out frustration, I whack it on my palm a few times, and it comes to life! Then, I flip it over and tap it the other direction, and it goes dead again. Something loose inside, I guess. I tap it on my hand in the "good" direction again, it comes to life, and I can drive the train! After a few times flipping the remote back and forth, whacking it on my palm to make it go on and off, she stays on. I play with the train a while and think, maybe I'll actually keep this thing. I set the remote down on the floor with the train running, and start packing up the original kit to be returned, when the train just stops on its own. I look over, and the remote is dead again. Pick it up and give it a whack, and she's back on.

Two shipments, two bad remotes. I suspect a third will be the same, at this point. I guess it's time to call Lionel, and ask them to send me a tested and functional remote, as a replacement. Does anyone have a good number to contact Lionel direct?

Also, I tried running the loco in each kit, and found one runs nicely while the other is jittery and weak at all powers below maybe 3/4 throttle. Lionel's quality is really horrible, but they seem to be still charging a premium for these trains. I wonder how their prices today compare to the prices of their much higher quality kits of the 1930's - 1950's, adjusted for inflation.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Did you try the Lionel Contact Us! page on their site?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks, John. I hadn't gotten that far, and also didn't know if the number on their site would be one where you could actually reach a warm-blooded human being. I'll give it a try over my lunch break!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Lionel doesn't have any in stock, and won't until after Christmas. They did not state it directly, but implied that they're seeing a LOT of these with dead LionChief controllers.

By stating they "don't have any yet" / they're "waiting for them to come in 2 - 3 weeks", I guess they're manufacturing them remotely (China?). Oh, what a disgrace this company's quality has become.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

FM Trainmaster said:


> I wonder how their prices today compare to the prices of their much higher quality kits of the 1930's - 1950's, adjusted for inflation.


Using minimum wage as a guide...

In 1952, the 3472 Automatic Refrigerated Milk Car Set cost $10.50. Minimum wage was $0.75. Making the car worth about 14 hours of work. (http://wd4eui.com/Lionel_Toy_Train.html)

According to the Lionel website, current milk cars range from $129 - $174. Minimum wage is currently $7.25, so that's 17-24 hours of work. Lionel Site

And, quite frankly, I kind of doubt that the modern cars will be running in 60 years. So, they are now considerably more expensive for something that likely won't last as long.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

mnp13 said:


> Using minimum wage as a guide...
> 
> In 1952, the 3472 Automatic Refrigerated Milk Car Set cost $10.50. Minimum wage was $0.75. Making the car worth about 14 hours of work. (http://wd4eui.com/Lionel_Toy_Train.html)
> 
> ...


Excellent work, Michelle! This is exactly as I suspected. Their sales volume is likely way down, as more kids probably want iPads than electric trains, these days. However, their profit margin is probably higher than any other time in the company history, with cheap manufacturing of poor quality product in China. They're ruining the company name and reputation, in the process. This is nothing new, though... they're following a well-traveled path.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Excellent work, Michelle! This is exactly as I suspected. Their sales volume is likely way down, as more kids probably want iPads than electric trains, these days. However, their profit margin is probably higher than any other time in the company history, with cheap manufacturing of poor quality product in China. They're ruining the company name and reputation, in the process. This is nothing new, though... they're following a well-traveled path.


No problem... 

That is the reasoning behind my general "don't buy anything new" philosophy. I have a 75 year old stove for a reason! lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

They had( maybe still have) production problems with there legacy system. Sometimes the cheapest manufacturer is just what you get. Yea, not many kids have train sets. Years ago you had one TVin the house and no cable. almost every family had a train set. It was family entertainment.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

LOL

We still have one tv in the house and no cable!!!

(But I'm not telling how many computers...)


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lionel actually rejected the Legacy systems from the Chinese manufacturer in September, they're still working on getting them back in stock. Apparently, the manufacturer decided to use sub-standard parts and Lionel called them on it. While it's a bummer that they're not available, it's a sign of good management that they wouldn't just let them go out in the pipeline to be problems later on.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> While it's a bummer that they're not available, it's a sign of good management that they wouldn't just let them go out in the pipeline to be problems later on.


Perhaps, but it's a sign of bad management that they let themselves get into that difficult position in the first place.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess you're not familiar with overseas manufacturing.  You don't always have a choice, sometimes things happen outside your control.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm Director of Design in a manufacturing company that sells $50M in custom engineered product per year. There is nothing outside your control, you have to evaluate and monitor your risks in every venture. In that particular case, they evaluated and/or audited their supplier poorly. It happens to the best of us, sometimes!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

My father is a process inspector (or something like that) for a number of different industries you'd be amazed at some of the stuff that gets by in production - or maybe you wouldn't! lol


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Saw plenty of LionChief sets today including the Silver Bells one that I want, in fact, it was running in a shop on a layout and the Chattanooga one and the Scout. I asked the shop owner and he said no one has come back saying any issues with them and he has had no issues with them. Not sure what to say happened with Thomas.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

So, the third set came, put in the batteries... nothing. So, I started digging. I figured out the problem, and it's with the battery connections inside the remotes. I can wiggle the batteries one way in their holder, and the remote comes to life. Wiggle 'em the other way, and the remote goes dead. I did not open up the remote to find if it was a bad solder connection, or what, but the problem with the last two is definitely in the same battery terminal within the second and third remotes. The first remote was different, in that no amount of tapping, wiggling, spinning of batteries would make it come alive.

... and before anyone asks, yes I did try it with multiple different sets of brand new batteries. Two different brands (Energizer & Duracell), in fact. There is definitely a problem with this one battery terminal (top right as you face the back of the remote) in two of the three remotes I received.

I'm just going to keep one of the kits, at this point. I find that if I spin the batteries to make the remote work, then put on the rear cover, they seem to maintain. If it eventually craps out, I'll either seek warranty replacement or just repair it myself.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Uggg! I missed my ups delivery twice. I'll let you know when, if, I get mine what shape it's in.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok agreed the remote is a POS. The train is not to bad. The sounds, reverse, forward, work well and are easy enough for my 2 yo to handle. The problem is the remote, works intermittently. Without your advice to play with the batteries it wouldn't work at all. I'lltry to take some ppictures tonight or in the am. I definitely want another remote buy my daughter allready saw the train, she found out how to open doors!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The remote in question. As you can see the connection points for the batteries are slightly bent. Not a problem for the contacts with the springs but the other ones had to be bent in to make contact with the batteries. The pictures are after I bent them in. The bars were bent worse beforehand. Also the battery compartment was missing the tab to release it, I needed to wedge a screwdriver in to get it open. Hopefully, after I straighten out the battery connections, it will work consistently. Time will tell. The unit is lightweight, not much else to it? It feels like a cheap toy. Actually, I have a lot of cheap toys that feel sturdier then this remote! But when it works it's pretty good. My daughter got the hang of the buttons very fast. The speed control is adequate. I like that at full speed thomas doesn't fly off the track. Thomas, and the cars so far seem Ok, sound, etc is good at this price range and entertaining for the kids. Stopping is another issue, the dial has to be centered. Easy enough for me (sometimes). It would have been nice to have the dial stop midstream or something.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Pop ups are killing me trying to post pictures!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Awesome post, sjm! I'll try playing with the battery terminals on mine, too. Right now, it's hiding in the back room of our very chilly 1770's basement, though!

I have lots of cheap toys here, too. Trouble is, this is the only one that lists for $200. Thankfully, Amazon honored their price reduction to $120, as I originally bought at $178.

I like your idea of a center detent on the fwd/rev speed control. Lionel should read this thread.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Oh, and I forgot to say. Your battery cover release tab is not broken. It's just a sh*tty design. All three I have are that way, and the instruction manual says you must jam a screwdriver in there to release it. Trouble is, it's difficult to do that more than 2x or 3x, without breaking it off. I actually cracked the tab on the first one I returned.

All other toys these days have a screw-on battery cover, without a thumb-release tab, and I assume this is due to some current safety law. This includes $3 toys from China. For some reason, Lionel decided to just remove the thumb tab, but keep and old-school compression latch, and ask you to use a screwdriver to pop it instead. It's a bad design, destined to break after a few uses.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Figures, I was going to write them for a new cover. Someone sure dropped the ball on that one! Now I think an email with some pictures and a link to this thread are appropriate! My daughter does love it, and the controller, even with its flaws, is easier for her to use then a transformer.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I would sum this one up as brilliant in concept, but a complete failure in execution. Their marketing team should be praised for bringing Thomas and Friends into the mix, and making it child-friendly, but this Product Manager should be fired. I hope they take into account the number of units requiring warranty service and/or returned, when they calculate the revenue on this particular product group.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Here's the picture of the battery tab, I through some trains photos in too, thomas, and Annie with her top off carrying baby thomas.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

didn't think about putting a mini Thomas in there! Shelby always asks me why the passenger cars are empty!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

I have some cast lead figures that would look great in there!! lol ;-)


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I've got some beep people from China, probably same amount of lead as yours!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I think we bought the same painted plastic people.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think I fried thomas. I wanted to try him out on the big layout. His tall body hit a light and he derailed, I immediately turned off the transformer. I put him on the track and got nothing. He smells of burnt wiring. II'lllet him cool off for a bit and see if he works later. Whooops! I thought I should be able to run him at 16 volts from a regular transformer. And i do have fast acting circuit protection on the tracks! ? This shouldn't have happened, right? Or am I missing something?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The LionChief Thomas should run on a track with 16-18 VAC properly. Hard to say what happened here, but it's not because of the track voltage. Obviously, derailments sometimes break things, nature of the beast.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Still fried, I guess when a get some time I'll take it apart. I'll post ppictures, if the fix isn't obvious I'm in over my head!


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I assume you have a warranty?

I've observed switching power supplies that exhibit a significant voltage spike as they transition out of current limit mode. What type of transformer were you running?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

My old school zw, I'm going to drag my new one out of storage soon. Off the rail for a second, just jumped one wheel.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

In the case of a ZW, I really don't see how damage could be caused by the choice of transformer. Some switching DC supplies will exhibit a voltage spike on their way back out of current limit mode, but AC transformers don't do this.

What's scary about this is that I'm also running our Thomas on vintage CW's and a ZW.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Could have been a fluke, as I do have those fast acting breakers on the track lines? I ddon't know? The only other thing I can think of was it was shipped ups, abc news showed a cell phone video of the ups guy throwing packages out of his big truck on into a parking lot to be distributed to smaller trucks in mu town! Who knows?


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