# Atlas Susquehanna Line



## ntrainman (Dec 30, 2017)

I've got a long story to tell that covers approximately 35 years. I started on an Atlas N scale model railroad per the Atlas plan, got it working but never landscaped it. It is an analog system that uses 4 cabs. Hopefully I can upload the layout and wiring diagrams. I actually got it working. Then came the landscape disaster. I glued down gravel in the rail beds and unfortunately in the switches. This glued the switches shut solid. In order to get the switches out I had to rip up a lot of the track. I got the switches freed up and everything is put back down. BUT. Somewhere I have a short or cross wire. I have the left terminal of the DC side of the cabs set to - and the right terminal +. The wires going to the track terminal switches are all +. I have decided to use terminal blocks for all of the connections from the cabs to the track terminals. The issue is the wires from Cab A and Cab B to the C1 and C2 track terminals. There is also an intersecting wire from the Upper Railroad Controller C2 switch to the C2 Terminal Wire. At this point I only have track terminal 1 hooked up. When the track terminal switch 1 is up the track section should be live; and it is. When the switch is down the track section should be dead. BUT IT IS NOT. There is still power. I have checked and triple/quadruple checked the C1 and C2 terminals on the track and they are on the correct side of the track. The same goes for all the wires coming from the track terminal switches to the track sections. Any advice would be helpful.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Divide and conquer*



ntrainman said:


> I've got a long story to tell that covers approximately 35 years. I started on an Atlas N scale model railroad per the Atlas plan, got it working but never landscaped it. It is an analog system that uses 4 cabs. Hopefully I can upload the layout and wiring diagrams. I actually got it working. Then came the landscape disaster. I glued down gravel in the rail beds and unfortunately in the switches. This glued the switches shut solid. In order to get the switches out I had to rip up a lot of the track. I got the switches freed up and everything is put back down. BUT. Somewhere I have a short or cross wire. I have the left terminal of the DC side of the cabs set to - and the right terminal +. The wires going to the track terminal switches are all +. I have decided to use terminal blocks for all of the connections from the cabs to the track terminals. The issue is the wires from Cab A and Cab B to the C1 and C2 track terminals. There is also an intersecting wire from the Upper Railroad Controller C2 switch to the C2 Terminal Wire. At this point I only have track terminal 1 hooked up. When the track terminal switch 1 is up the track section should be live; and it is. When the switch is down the track section should be dead. BUT IT IS NOT. There is still power. I have checked and triple/quadruple checked the C1 and C2 terminals on the track and they are on the correct side of the track. The same goes for all the wires coming from the track terminal switches to the track sections. Any advice would be helpful.


ntrainman;

Finding electrical problems is no fun, and all the frustration you can handle! (Sometimes more!:laugh I should know, I spent about 40 years doing that for a living! Solving your electrical problem for you online is extremely unlikely. The method that always worked best for me was to "Divide and conquer." In other words, electrically break things down into smaller, more manageable pieces. Your layout has so much track, that troubleshooting the whole thing, as a unit, is nearly hopeless. First make a written list of what works, and what dosen't. Start with the portion of the layout that dosen't work, and cut rail gaps and/or remove feeder wires, until that section is not connected to the rest of the railroad. Try the problem section again separately. Does it still have the same problem? If it does, you have a problem in that section, and you may need to divide it into two smaller pieces. Then test those two to see which one dosn't work. Now you have narrowed it down. continue dividing and testing, until you find the problem.
On the other hand, what if, when you first divided the problematic section from everything else, it started working right. Well that means "trouble my friends, right here in River City." 
Some interaction between the removed section, and the remaining layout, is causing the short that keeps power on that track, when it should be gone. This is a lot harder, but again, we can divide and conquer. Separate another section, the one just beyond the first one. (with the problem track in it) Make this second section as small, and as simple, as you can. Then join only this small, second, section to the first. Does the problem come back?
If it does, then the problem is likely within that second section. If the problem does not appear, with those two sections joined, then add another small section. Check each time you add another, and see how much you can put back together that works properly. Sooner or later, you will find a section that causes things to go bad, and within it, you will find your problem. 
I had to find an electrical problem today, on my own layout. One of the many wires I'd just soldered into a complicated wiring harness, didn't work. By checking what did work, and what didn't I was able to find two problems with the same wire. First was a bad solder joint within a multi-pin plug. The second was an offset of that particular wire to the wrong pin. Repaired those two things and now it works. 
Now a question for you. Do you have a multimeter? If you don't you should get one. They are a great toll for finding all those little electric gremlins that haunt model railroads. You can get one for $5-10 at www.harborfreighttools.com 

This photo shows one of their meters.








good luck

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Viperjim1 (Mar 19, 2015)

I know your pain! And start at all the track you removed, and a few sections further each way and get out you layout book and go 1 by 1 every terminal connection and make sure it's in the right spot , being insulated joiner or powered and to the right switch and so on and so forth, and each one you check put a mark next to it so you know it's done , so you don't keep going over the same point over and over again. And good luck and take your time , it is a fun layout and allot of action .


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## ntrainman (Dec 30, 2017)

Traction Fan,
Thank you for the quick reply and your advice. As I stated in my post I have only the 1st section of track on the lower level wired. All the other sections have been undone. I will unhook section 1 and activate section 2, etc. etc. etc. to see if any section works correctly in isolation. If not then I am at a loss. I can't believe they would all be bad. That's why I think it has something to do with the C1 and C2 wiring. Its a common wire joined from Cab A & B to C1 and then it splits off to C2 with the controller switch wired into the C2 wire. The pre-split wire to C1 goes into a terminal block where I wire in the split to C2 and the controller switch comes into the terminal block at the same place. Then the wires to C1 & C2 go from the terminal block to the rail joiners. Do you anticipate any problem with doing that?

At this time I have none of the switches wired up. But they all run off the AC side of the cabs. So I take it that should not be a problem. I do have a multimeter. I use it to see that there is power running through the rails; negative on one and positive on the other. But I don't look at the voltage level that closely. Is there a better way to use it?


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## Viperjim1 (Mar 19, 2015)

If I remember correctly all the control switches have to be in the correct order for it to run. I’ll have to get my book out and double vheck


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ntrainman

Ordinarily I look forward to electrical problem solving.
I printed out the two pages of your layout and wiring
diagram. I thought this ought to be simple. NOT.

You have presented the best reason to go to DCC that
I have ever seen.

You have a complex and interesting layout offering
good continuous running and interesting switching
operations. But the DC control system to run it would
drive most of us to crocheting dish rags. You have
four power packs (cabs), seven track terminal
panels, with 4 selectors each, and an 'interchange' whatever that is. And all with the further complication of 'common rail'.

Do you realize that if your layout were DCC you would have
ONE controller and NO track terminal switches or
'Interchanges'. You would have 2 bus wires from the
controller feeding track drops every 6 feet or so. THAT'S
IT. All that rats nest of selector panels, wires and cabs
would be gone. Your one DCC controller would run 4 or more 
trains individually controlled on your two levels. 

However, it is for us to help you solve your problem.
Tractionfan and ViperJim have the right idea. Break
down the layout into smaller sections. If rechecking
your track drops in the sections you removed doesn't
solve anything, I would unhook the plus feed to all those track/cab selectors beyond the first one. Disconnect
all cabs except A.
Get the section of track the first panel controls
working then try connecting cab B. If it is still working then move to the second panel and so on.
Be especially careful to check the 'common rail' 
track connections in the areas that you ripped up.
If it got connected to the wrong rail it is the problem.

Best of luck on a tedious task.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*C1 & C2? I'm confused*



ntrainman said:


> Traction Fan,
> Thank you for the quick reply and your advice. As I stated in my post I have only the 1st section of track on the lower level wired. All the other sections have been undone. I will unhook section 1 and activate section 2, etc. etc. etc. to see if any section works correctly in isolation. If not then I am at a loss. I can't believe they would all be bad. That's why I think it has something to do with the C1 and C2 wiring. Its a common wire joined from Cab A & B to C1 and then it splits off to C2 with the controller switch wired into the C2 wire. The pre-split wire to C1 goes into a terminal block where I wire in the split to C2 and the controller switch comes into the terminal block at the same place. Then the wires to C1 & C2 go from the terminal block to the rail joiners. Do you anticipate any problem with doing that?
> 
> At this time I have none of the switches wired up. But they all run off the AC side of the cabs. So I take it that should not be a problem. I do have a multimeter. I use it to see that there is power running through the rails; negative on one and positive on the other. But I don't look at the voltage level that closely. Is there a better way to use it?


ntrainman; 

I don't really understand what you are referring to by C1 and C2. Looking at your track diagram, I see the C1 & C2 labels OK. They appear to be pointing at the two rails of one piece of track. Do I have that right? Do you have a short between those two rails? I Know what common rail is, I even used it in the past, but I don't have Atlas's controllers at hand, to know what they are in normal electric terms. Is the Atlas controller the one with four slide switches? Can you post a photo of the controller and your wiring?
Now, after bombarding you with questions, I think I agree with you that the problem may be in the C1, C2, wiring, rather than a section of track. I also agree that all the sections having the same problem simultaneously, is highly unlikely. The way to find out what's going on is to go back to basics. Forget all the fancy wiring for now. Hook one power pack's two variable DC (sometimes labeled "Track.") output terminals to one section of your already divided layout. Run a locomotive on that section. 
If it works, try the same test with the power pack connected to the second section. Continue this until you have verified that each, and every one of your layout sections work this way. 
This procedure may sound silly, but there is a point to it. What you're doing is checking for a short, or other fault, in the track, rather than in the complex wiring you have just left behind. I suspect that you will end up finding that all the track is OK. However there are some gremlins that could be in the track. One of the more sinister ones is a short between two rails in the frog of a turnout. 
If, as you, and I, both suspect; the track is all good, then you have verified your theory regarding the problem being in the C1- C2 wiring, or at least somewhere in that gaggle of Atlas control wiring and switches. 
Assuming that proves true, I need to ask you another question before moving on. Please don't be offended. I don't know you, or how much you may know. My question is, "How much/little do you know about general electricity?"
Before I switched my own layout over to DCC control, I had it wired with an old, but simple system called "tower control." In that system, the track is divided into blocks with insulating rail joiners in both rails. One power pack is permanently attached to each block. The trains pass from one block to the next, and are controlled from the new block's power pack. Simple, reliable, system, but limited in what it can do. Now that I have gone DCC, I strongly agree with DonR's reply. DCC's wiring hook up to even a layout with as much track as yours, consists of two wires! One wire to the outer rail, and one to the inside rail. That's it! No controllers, no common rail, practically no wiring as far as train operation is concerned. (You do still have wiring; for turnout control, lighting, and accessories.) 
I realize that this isn't the answer you were looking for, but it might be something to seriously consider before you go further into wiring, which in the future you may end up not wanting or using. That doesn't mean I won't keep trying to help you with fixing your present control system. It's just some thing to think about. 
Let me know your test results, and we can go on from there.
By the way, there are many ways to use a multimeter. I'm glad you have one. If you have the instructions for it, they will explain, better than I can here, how to use all it's various functions.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Viperjim1 (Mar 19, 2015)

Well did you get it figured out. I finally found my layout book.


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