# Multiple trains - O/O27 scale



## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

So, I've been reading a lot about getting multiple O trains (3 track O27) to run on the same track - If I understand correctly, I can't use blocks (don't exist for 3 track) with multiple transformers and have to go digital or run separate track (which I don't have enough of or enough space).

Since all my trains are older, it sounds like digital is going to be a hefty expense and significant learning curve to add the electronics - which I am not prepared to learn or spend at the moment.

Am I correct?

If so, looks like I'm going to instead add a few manual switches (since I'm out of auto switches) to emulate my switching sections.

Is there a way to make manual switches auto by adding the guts of an Auto switch?

Thanks as always in advance.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, it'll be far cheaper to just buy remote switches than trying to make manual switches into remote switches. If this is for O27, I have a small pile of excellent and NIB O27 switches sitting in the corner. 

You can do blocks with 3-rail track, but running multiple trains on a single track using analog control will keep you busier than a one-armed paperhanger! 

IMO, the only practical way to run multiple trains on the same track is using TMCC or DCS.


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, it'll be far cheaper to just buy remote switches than trying to make manual switches into remote switches. If this is for O27, I have a small pile of excellent and NIB O27 switches sitting in the corner.
> 
> You can do blocks with 3-rail track, but running multiple trains on a single track using analog control will keep you busier than a one-armed paperhanger!
> 
> IMO, the only practical way to run multiple trains on the same track is using TMCC or DCS.


Thanks GRJ - TMCC and DCS are very expensive - way beyond my budget at the moment 

O27 switches you say? Hmm 

Is there a guide how to do blocks with 3 track? I wasn't able to find anything and my wiring book only talks about 2 rail track.

There is only 1 area at the moment where I need to run 2 loco's at once - it's where the freight train comes into the yard for an engine switch while a passenger train leaves from one of the stations.

At least that's what I've been thinking


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I appear to have two 1122 right hand ones and four 1122 left hand ones. Most are the 65131/65132 models which seem identical to the older part number, I have one 6-5121 left hand. All are the classic O27 switch with the controller, like this:










Send me a PM if you want some or all. 

Here's the link to the sale ad I posted some time back: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6391


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Track blocks with 3-rail O are conceptually the same as track blocks with 2-rail HO. Think of the 3-rail O as a "hot" central rail, and the outer rails joined together (electrially) as one common ground. As you establish blocks, you can tie all of the outer rails together for a common ground, and isolate sections of inner "hot" rail via single-pole or double-pole switches. ("Switch" here is an electronic switch ... not to be confused with a track "turnout" type of switch.)

You can buy plastic rail-joiner pins that will allow you to join your middle railes together mechanically, but leave the sections isolated electrically.

Regards,

TJ


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I appear to have two 1122 right hand ones and four 1122 left hand ones. Most are the 65131/65132 models which seem identical to the older part number, I have one 6-5121 left hand. All are the classic O27 switch with the controller, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks GRJ - I need to let my budget refill for a bit, but I am interested in the switches.


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks for the response TJ, however...



tjcruiser said:


> Track blocks with 3-rail O are conceptually the same as track blocks with 2-rail HO. Think of the 3-rail O as a "hot" central rail, and the outer rails joined together (electrially) as one common ground. As you establish blocks, you can tie all of the outer rails together for a common ground, and isolate sections of inner "hot" rail via single-pole or double-pole switches. ("Switch" here is an electronic switch ... not to be confused with a track "turnout" type of switch.)
> 
> You can buy plastic rail-joiner pins that will allow you to join your middle railes together mechanically, but leave the sections isolated electrically.
> 
> ...


Hoo boy, a bit over my head there -> "single-pole or double-pole switches", um... Say what?

I have the plastic joiners (another thread you guys helped me with when I first came and my O trains weren't running very well).

The rest is a bit jibberish to me 

The book I read was jibberisjh also 

I don't understand electricity at all - I understand positive and negative and that's it as long as there's a + and - to hook up the wires.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The plastic insulating pins will do the trick, you just have to power the individual sections with switches to select which transformer is powering them.

You'll also want to check the phasing of multiple transformers when you create sections, you'll get interesting fireworks if they're out of phase!


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The plastic insulating pins will do the trick, you just have to power the individual sections with switches to select which transformer is powering them.
> 
> You'll also want to check the phasing of multiple transformers when you create sections, you'll get interesting fireworks if they're out of phase!


By switches you mean - just regular toggle/on off switches, not track switches, yes?

Phasing? Um ok.... What's that?


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

Hmm, reversing a plug changes the phase? Didn't know you could do that with the plugs since one side is larger.

Also, I didn't know that the numbers on a throttle on a transformer were related to Volts!

Sheesh, the things you learn here


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, in the old days, phasing was indeed just swapping the plug around. If they have polarized plugs, they "should" be correctly phased, but that's not always true. Lionel specifically had several instances of phasing issues with their Powerhouse transformers, as well as their new ZW.

Yes, I'm talking about powering the individual sections with a switch. Some folks use a rotary switch for each section so they can select which transformer controls each section.

*Phasing your transformers*

Make sure you identify the common of all of the transformers. Connect all the commons together. Note that for transformers like the 1033, the common is NOT the U, however for the KW or ZW, it is the U.

Set all the transformers to roughly the same voltage. If you have a multimeter, use that to set them all to say 12 VAC. Connect a bulb to the hot lead of one transformer, then connect the other side to each of the other transformer outputs. If the bulb lights up brightly, you have a phasing issue. If it's really dim or doesn't light for all the transformers, all is well.


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

Common = Ground yes?

This is the transformer I have, is the U the common?:




















> Set all the transformers to roughly the same voltage.


How do you do that, with the throttle?



> If you have a multimeter, use that to set them all to say 12 VAC.


With the throttle?



> Connect a bulb to the hot lead of one transformer


Which part of the bulb, the screw part or the nub at the bottom?



> then connect the other side to each of the other transformer outputs.


Red or black?

Sorry, but I am completely in the dark when it comes to electronics.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Is that transformer the one that uses that Powerhouse? I would assume yes, since I have no idea what you'd do with a fixed voltage Powerhouse if not.

What is the other transformer you're going to use?


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, it's a powerhouse 80w - all I have except the one below that does AC.

This is the only other AC one I have


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nov,

Simply put, a single pole switch is a simple on-off toggle ... like a basic light switch.

A double pole switch directs power to either one of two pathways.

There are lots of size/shape variations, with a toggle design being one of the most basic.

I posted a thread a while back that shows the block setup I used on my very simple (VERY simple) O layout. A loop with a bypass and two dead end spurs. You can see how I used the toggle switches and a power distribution terminal strip to wire each section of track to one common transformer. I can throw any (or all) of the toggle switches to make each track section "live". Extremely simple, but a good basic example, perhaps. Look at the photos showing the underside of the drawer with the switches.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3469

Regards,

TJ


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks for the link TJ - looks similar to what I want to accomplish - I'm going to read the thread and post some questions if I have any about the wiring.

I can see most of where it goes, but some of the wires are not clear - I'll read first post later.

So, Single Pole - on and off, double pole - On 1, On 2, Off?

I can use any kind of switch, not just a toggle?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's some basic info/diagrams on toggle switches ...

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/switch.htm

I should clarify/correct what I said earlier ...

A double-THROW switch redirects power to one of two pathways.

A doulbe-POLE switch is like two simple switches mechanically fastened together with one toggle.

If you want a switch that would be Path A / Path B, that would be a Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT).

If you want a switch that would be Path A / Off (center position) / Path B, that would be a Single Pole Double Throw Center Off.

The link explains things (with diagrams) more clearly.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you want multiple segments, a rotary switch is probably what you're looking for.

As far as phasing the transformers, are you sure that little 15VA transformer is up to the task of running the trains?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Good point on that 15VA. Better left for accessories, lighting, etc., perhaps.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

toggle switch,


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If you want multiple segments, a rotary switch is probably what you're looking for.
> 
> As far as phasing the transformers, are you sure that little 15VA transformer is up to the task of running the trains?


I set up 2 test tracks - 1 O and 1 HO and the little guy is pretty powerful.

All I'm going to use it for is switching locos and moving a train on to the main track.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Since HO is DC, I'm not sure how you're using that transformer for that...


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## novice (Feb 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Since HO is DC, I'm not sure how you're using that transformer for that...


No, No sorry - I was just saying I set up 2 test tracks for testing stuff.

I hooked up the transformer to the O test track and the trains took off pretty quick


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, that makes a bit more sense. 

As long as it works for your equipment, that's all that counts.


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