# Lionchief vs. Legacy



## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Saw this recent Trainworld video with Lionel explaining the new Lionchief line. 






These locomotives appear to be half the cost of Legacy locomotives. So I'm wondering what the difference is? It seems that they are not compatible with Legacy in that you cannot control them with your Legacy controller however they include their own controllers so how can they be priced so low?

Thoughts?


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

From the video they appear to have cruise control and start at around $360.00. 
If they were cheaper it would be great but at that price you can get started in TMCC (bare bones, used)but not Legacy. Don


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They are night and day different from Legacy or TMCC. They have a very basic remote that communicates directly with the locomotive that it's shipped with. So, if you had a dozen of those locomotives, you'd have a dozen remotes, kinda' like the grouping on the coffee table for the TV/DVR/DVD/VHS/cable box remotes that seem to multiply like rabbits. 

They do not have cruise or other advanced features.

These are starter sets made basically for first time buyers to get them hooked on remote control. They're not bad, but don't expect great details and performance from these sets.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

In the video the Lionel guy made a statment that led me to think they havebsome type of cruise. Don


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They might have added it for the LionChief Plus, the original had no speed control of any kind. I checked the video, and they sure did say that. I played with the original LionChief set and I wasn't all that impressed.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

Sounds like a high dollar rc train to me. I supose someone who only wanted one train ( no one on this site!) May have use for it. Don


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

It is a great starter set. Great for kids ready to move up from Little lines and wooden trains. I played with one at the LCCA convention and for what it is I liked it. In fact, I would like to have the christmas one to use on my Chritmas layout under the tree because of some of the sound features on it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's exactly what it is, a starter set. Nothing wrong with that, but for someone that plans on having a number of command locomotives, it's not a good choice.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm thinking from a cost of goods how/why can these Lionchief engines sell for $300 when the Legacy equivalent sells for $500-$1,000? The tooling and electronics are very close to each other in terms of net cost.

Since Lionel owns legacy why not make operation with an existing legacy system an available option? it should have added next to nothing to the price. Instead were left with a screwy one-off marketing move to put the same electronics into these engines but leave out this part of the code to discourage serious Legacy users from purchasing these. 

Someone at Lionel needs to explain why they would want to eliminate a significant portion of their base to offer these lower priced feature-rich locomotives. Not all of us want to spend $1,000 for a locomotive.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

More customers, The lower the price the more potential customers. There are a lot of people who will not consider $1000 plus to run a toy train but may be willing to pend $300 plus . Don


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, for one, the Legacy equipment generally has much better detailing than the LionChief stuff. I got to see a lot of them side by side at York, and the difference is usually pretty obvious.

Don it right, it's a simple system for the entry level user. I see it filling a useful role, we have to get people in the door and hooked on the idea before sinking them into the deep end of the pond. 

There is a significant difference between the electronics package in a Legacy locomotive and the LionChief. I have no idea how much more it would cost to equip them with Legacy, I personally like the idea, but obviously Lionel has other ideas.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

The actual cost of the electronics is negligible. I was a development engineer in charge of sourcing for years when I worked in the Pinball business. I know first hand the cost of producing circuit boards. The cost of the actual board made in China is pennies. For something like Legacy or Lionchief it's all in the development and the software. Since Lionel is using stock sounds and existing technology with I can only assume the difference is next to nothing. In fact Lionel could have increased the production order for Legacy boards thus actually lowering their cost per unit.

This brings me back to my original rant. Yes, I agree that a lower entry point will sell more locomotives, but a simple change making these engines compatible with Legacy would have increased their sales even more. As it is they will sell engines to entry level buyers but they could have sold even more to byers like me with a simple net zero cost enhancement.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I guess you'll just have to visit Lionel and set them straight on their business model.


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## chadou23 (Nov 1, 2013)

I have been reading over the threads trying to gain some insight on whether I should purchase the new Lionchief Polar Express set or the set that utilizes the CW-80 transformer. I am completely new to model trains, but wanted something nice to have around our tree come Christmas time. My wife and I just gave birth to a baby boy and I thought it would be a great tradition every Christmas to bring out this set and add a new car/accessories every year. 

I called Lionel to find out why the price difference in the Lionchief (less expensive) set and the traditional O gauge set (more expensive). They stated the only difference is the use of a remote and the use of the transformer. They also stated that you get better sounds and smoke with the Lionchief. They said absolutely no difference in the quality of the design of the locomotive or cars.

So what are your thoughts? Do I go with the new Lionchief set or the traditional set? It will more than likely just be a christmas tree set that we will expand on. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd go with the LionChief if picking between those two options. There's no real downside, and it's operationally much cooler than the conventional sets.

In my personal case, I opt for the full command models, but they're more expensive and require the full command system. Since I already have both major command systems, it minimizes the impact.


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## captaincog (Oct 7, 2012)

chadou23 said:


> I have been reading over the threads trying to gain some insight on whether I should purchase the new Lionchief Polar Express set or the set that utilizes the CW-80 transformer. I am completely new to model trains, but wanted something nice to have around our tree come Christmas time. My wife and I just gave birth to a baby boy and I thought it would be a great tradition every Christmas to bring out this set and add a new car/accessories every year.
> 
> I called Lionel to find out why the price difference in the Lionchief (less expensive) set and the traditional O gauge set (more expensive). They stated the only difference is the use of a remote and the use of the transformer. They also stated that you get better sounds and smoke with the Lionchief. They said absolutely no difference in the quality of the design of the locomotive or cars.
> 
> So what are your thoughts? Do I go with the new Lionchief set or the traditional set? It will more than likely just be a christmas tree set that we will expand on. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!


I agree for your needs go with the Lionchief and enjoy. The other posts on this thread concerning if someone has the Legacy system already is there a benefit or reason for them to buy a Lionchief system. I would say yes there are reason for the Lionchief items say if one is running a train at a show you do not have to bring your Legacy system. I would think though it would be nice if you could end up running a Lionchief unit on your Legacy. Anyways, buy the Lionchief and run some trains. You will enjoy them.


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## chadou23 (Nov 1, 2013)

Thank you both for your suggestions. I am looking forward to getting more involved in this wonderful hobby!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

One thing with the LionChief products, they're going to be the lower end stuff. Usually not true O-scale, and less detailing than the other product lines like Legacy. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's nice to know before you buy.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

In this latest video from Trainworld Lionel reps demo and explain Lionchief a bit further. They kind of gloss over the fact if you have 24 engines you will have 24 remotes like that's a cool thing.

Interestingly, at around the 5:22 mark of the video, Rich Grutzmacher of Lionel throws out a snippet that these engines can be controlled with Legacy but no further explanation is given.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

areizman said:


> Interestingly, at around the 5:22 mark of the video, Rich Grutzmacher of Lionel throws out a snippet that these engines can be controlled with Legacy but no further explanation is given.


Well, that's a bald-faced lie, or at least a gross misrepresentation of the facts! I can assure you that you can't control those from the Legacy system, I've played with the LionChief at Henning's. You can run it on the same tracks with a Legacy locomotive, but you have to use the specific remote that came with that locomotive. That's pretty much chiseled in granite for these sets.


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## seang86s (Dec 14, 2013)

Perhaps he meant the LionChief Plus models which supposedly allow you to use conventional controls by flipping a switch. At least that's what I've gathered from Lionel's website.

I'm new to all this, never having owned any O gauge trains until recently when I picked up the Lionchief Polar Express from the sale Amazon had a couple of weeks back. Figured it would be great for around the Christmas tree. My wife loves it but we decided our 2.5 year old would wreck it this year so we'll put it out next year so he can operate it with supervision.

In fact, my wife likes it so much she asked me if I can put it around his room, hanging from the ceiling. We seen a setup like that at a store not too long ago. So here I am doing some research. I have a year to figure all this out, because we think he's a little too young yet. Anyway, I'll start a new thread for this project later.

I do have a question about the LionChief models, however. It doesn't look like you can create some of the more complex layouts using these engines like having multiple trains running at the same time with blocks to prevent collisions, etc. One would need to stick to TMCC or Legacy engines to do so?


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> They have a very basic remote that communicates directly with the locomotive that it's shipped with. So, if you had a dozen of those locomotives, you'd have a dozen remotes, kinda' like the grouping on the coffee table for the TV/DVR/DVD/VHS/cable box remotes that seem to multiply like rabbits.


I can only speak to the Lionel Thomas and Friends LionChief kits, but those do not have unique remotes. The Thomas remote will operate all Thomas trains, the James remote will operate all James trains, etc. So, if you have two kids with two Thomas's, you're sort of screwed, as each will be controlling each other's train in addition to their own.



gunrunnerjohn said:


> I played with the original LionChief set and I wasn't all that impressed.


Ditto. Again, only in reference to the Thomas and Friends LionChief stuff, they're cheap junk. See the recent thread, in which two of us have been thru several of these.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Engines of the same type probably have the same remote. The Thomas and Percy sets have different remotes, I've seen them running at the same time individually controlled.

If you're going for a "more complex" layout, I recommend you not consider these starter sets.


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## fbicknel (Dec 24, 2020)

This is an old thread I stumbled into, but I still have questions.  The LC clearly has the 1:1 remote:train issue. And I have one, so I happen to know it runs on 18 VDC. I recently purchased an Erie Lackawanna PA-1 A-A set (on a whim) and now I have something that's NOT LC. (But I don't know exactly what it is.)

I've seen the terms Legacy and TMCC (Trainmaster Command Control). A little research dug up a whole bunch of other standards: TMCC, Legacy, LionChief/LionChief+ and DCC. (Digital Control Control). Wow. Someone in the standards division apparently went on vacation that year. 

Anyway, not here to judge. I'm just trying to figure out these systems. I've seen transformers that produce variable 0-18 VAC. Surely those can't exist on the same track system with 18VDC, yet the claim is that all of the systems mentioned above can run on the same track. Does LC also run on AC? And what if that transformer is set to a voltage lower than 18V? That LC is going to stop regardless of what remote is controlling it.

Signed, 
Confused.


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## batstang2000 (Oct 26, 2015)

fbicknel said:


> Anyway, not here to judge. I'm just trying to figure out these systems. I've seen transformers that produce variable 0-18 VAC. Surely those can't exist on the same track system with 18VDC, yet the claim is that all of the systems mentioned above can run on the same track. Does LC also run on AC? And what if that transformer is set to a voltage lower than 18V? That LC is going to stop regardless of what remote is controlling it.
> 
> Signed,
> Confused.


Can't help you on the loco you mentioned, but LC does and will run on AC. In fact, all of my LC engines run on AC from a separate transformer. I usually set it to around 13-14 volts and they all run just fine. I'm sure someone will respond with more technical details.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

LC & LC+ run fine on either AC or DC. Obviously, LC+ will have "interesting" problems if you switch them to conventional on DC, the whistle or bell will run continuously. LC+ 2.0 can only use DC for BlueTooth control, for conventional or TMCC operation, it needs AC power.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

fbicknel said:


> This is an old thread I stumbled into, but I still have questions.  The LC clearly has the 1:1 remote:train issue. And I have one, so I happen to know it runs on 18 VDC. I recently purchased an Erie Lackawanna PA-1 A-A set (on a whim) and now I have something that's NOT LC. (But I don't know exactly what it is.)
> 
> I've seen the terms Legacy and TMCC (Trainmaster Command Control). A little research dug up a whole bunch of other standards: TMCC, Legacy, LionChief/LionChief+ and DCC. (Digital Control Control). Wow. Someone in the standards division apparently went on vacation that year.
> 
> ...



DCC = digital command control

DCS = digital control system

legacy is basically TMCC 2


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