# Need your opinion



## 611Railman (Feb 28, 2014)

I am a novice to be sure and I would like some input from more experienced railroaders.

I have a brand new Lionel Polar Express Lion Chief and an older Lionel tubular rail steam set. I am somewhat enamored by the sound effects of the Lion Chief and also by the Proto Sounds of the MTH sets.

I am also observing that it would be easier and less expensive to build using the older systems that have little or no sound effects. 

I am just not sure which way to go, newer more expensive electronic outfits or older more reliable systems. In reality the sounds are annoying after a while and the layout becomes more important than noise.

I would appreciate any views you may care to share.

Thanks for your time.


----------



## carinofranco (Aug 1, 2012)

It is all a matter of personal preference. I like the post war Marx, Lionel, and American Flyer trains mostly because of nostalgia and I just think they are cool and fun to work on. I also have some of the more modern MTH with Protosounds. But, the sounds can become routine after a while. Note, you can turn off the sounds or lower the volume. Whatever your preference, you cannot deny that it is all good.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Why limit yourself? You can run conventional, old stuff, newer Lionel, and your lion chief on the same layout. Maybe not all at once but you can run them. First, pick a track, next pick what you want out of your layout, running, switching, a little of both. Then see how much room you have to build. The hardest part is the planning! None of it will be cheap, you'll add lights, accessories, buildings, etc. Pick a power supply. Thks depends on what you are running and what you'll expand into. It's not an all or nothing endeavor. Stuff you buy now ,say an undersized transformer can run all your lights later as you upgrade. As long as the layout is thought out, yon can add control systems later. I love the old school stuff but will soon hook up my legacy stuff. My old transformer will power lights, accessories , etc. I still like some of the cheapest stuff , I paint them in different colors for my firefighter train, or Christmas train etc. Ill leave you with this, buy what you like, you can find a way to run it all. It just takes a bit of time!


----------



## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

It is just a matter of taste.

I have all postwar and modern trains. I collect just one line and go from there.

The sounds of crew chatter doesn't do a lot for me. I prefer to keep my layout simple from an operational point. No programming etc. I turn the lever on my 1033 and away it goes, just as it did when I was a boy.

I had a MTH loco with speed control and crew chatter for a day or two. It just didn't do it for me.

It's my railroad and I'll do as I please.


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

I think it's a personal thing, based on what you like. 


I currently only have a single 3 rail O gauge locomotive, a postwar Marx steam engine and a small Lionel transformer (50 watts). Nothing fancy, but they work fine. 

But about 15 years ago, I bought my first Lionel train set. It came with a oval of O-27 track and Southern Pacific RS-3 Diesel Engine, the common 40 watt transformer from that era, and a few freight cars. It was okay, but It was not a very powerful locomotive. I also did not like all the plastic (such as plastic couplers, plastic gears, side frames, etc). In effect, I was not impressed with that set, so I sold it. I no longer have it.

I have also have owned a MTH switcher in the past (either the MP15AC or SW 1500, don't remember anymore). I no longer have that either. The Proto couplers did not work good for me, half the time they refused to operate. And the ProtoSounds did not work good on my Lionel 40 watt transformer.

At the time, I was still a total beginner in O scale, having been in HO scale all my life, up to that point. 

I basically like simple and reliable products, which are rugged. And while I'm also somewhat enamored by the latest technology (such as ProtoSounds, TMCC, DCS), I still value dependable trains more. I want something easy to fix. I can buy Marx engines quite cheaply, and also the lower end Post war Lionel. I like my trains with metal couplers, wheels and gears. And I don't have to worry about electronics being damaged, because there are none.

In the future when I'm able, I plan on building a layout for mostly post war trains. Partly for nostalgic reasons, and partly for the reliability. 

But that is just a plan for now. I might change it.

Howard


----------



## 611Railman (Feb 28, 2014)

Now this has been a good discussion. I appreciate your opinions and will be taking them into consideration as I move forward. I see value in each type but like some of you I am a bit concerned about the electronic stuff and what it will cost if it has to be repaired. I am not able to afford a hobby that will rack up a lot of maintenance costs on things not working well. Of course I am a bit fanatical about things working as they were designed to work and not having to "baling wire" things together.
I found the green board for a layout interesting too. I just happen to have a green board without having to paint one. Thanks for the insights.


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

611Railman said:


> Now this has been a good discussion. I appreciate your opinions and will be taking them into consideration as I move forward. I see value in each type but like some of you I am a bit concerned about the electronic stuff and what it will cost if it has to be repaired. I am not able to afford a hobby that will rack up a lot of maintenance costs on things not working well. Of course I am a bit fanatical about things working as they were designed to work and not having to "baling wire" things together.
> I found the green board for a layout interesting too. I just happen to have a green board without having to paint one. Thanks for the insights.


I agree with you, you make some good observations. I don't have lot's of money, and I don't want the aggravation and frustration of expensive repairs. I like simple and reliable. While I like some of the features of the latest and greatest, I also read the posts at this (and other forums) where people are having problems with a brand new defective locomotive. It's often the electronic components which cause problems. 

Naturally the old style locomotives can also develop problems, but it's often easier to diagnose and repair 50 year old technology. Those old trains have been running for the past 50 years, some are 100 years old. With proper maintenance, they will be running for another 100 years. The biggest enemies are usually rust, lot's of dried lubrication, old cloth on the wires deteriorating, zinc-pest (a form of intercrystalline corrosion) on some of the prewar trains, and similar. Those are all obvious problems, usually easy enough to recognize. 

The problem with the electronic circuit boards in the modern trains, they basically look the same, no matter if it's working or not. Once in a while you can see visual damage on a circuit board, which has been fried. But a lot of the time, it looks perfectly fine. 

And the crazy thing is, I like computers, and love to build them. But there is a big difference between a normal computer sitting on a desk (like mine), and a model train. A model train can derail and create a short circuit, when the metal wheels on a Lionel type train are touching both the outside and middle rails (at the same time). That short circuit (especially on TMCC or DCS) can damage the electronics in less then one second. 

In the old days, with the old transformers and trains (like 50 years ago) when a train derails, sure there is still the short circuit (when metal wheels are touching both middle and outside rails at same time). But there is rarely any instant permanent damage. You normally notice the train has derailed and turn off the power anyway, and put the train back on the track. Usually there is no damage at all. The post war (and prewar) trains never had any delicate electronics. Just a motor or two, mechanical reversing unit, light bulb, and some wires to connect everything together. Of course the higher end postwar locomotives had a whistle or horn. 

Now the locomotives have an electronic reversing unit and sounds, or a full command control system. Many have electro-couplers, smoke units, speed control, etc. 

If I had a lot of money, I would happily buy the latest DCS and TMCC/Legacy locomotives. I think they are cool looking, and have lot's of interesting features. I would love to have a wireless walk around controller, and be able to run many locomotives on a single track.

But I don't have lot's of money, so I need to be frugal with my purchases. I believe I get more value for my money, if I buy reliable and rugged trains I can repair myself. Plus there is no doubt, a rugged Marx engine is far cheaper then a modern MTH Proto-Sound or Lionel TMCC engine. Plus I can buy cheap freight cars (that collectors don't want), and modify or repaint and decal them if desired. 

So it's really about your priorities, and what your goals are. Besides it's a hobby, it should be enjoyable. No one can tell you what to buy, or what to do. It's 100 percent your choice, your decision, based on your wants and needs. 

Whatever you decide to do, follow your heart. Do whatever you want. And enjoy yourself.

Howard


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm in the modern command & control camp. I have pretty exclusively modern command locomotives from Lionel and MTH. I also have converted many locomotives from conventional operation to command.

While it may be more expensive, I have the benefit of being able to fix my own stuff, so that keeps the costs down.


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm in the modern command & control camp. I have pretty exclusively modern command locomotives from Lionel and MTH. I also have converted many locomotives from conventional operation to command.
> 
> While it may be more expensive, I have the benefit of being able to fix my own stuff, so that keeps the costs down.


That is very true, you have the skills to fix your own stuff, being a train technician. I myself have done some training to be a computer technician, fixing regular PC's from modern Microsoft Windows to vintage MS-DOS. I have no problems upgrading, building and fixing computers. I have experience installing the operating system and software, removing viruses, and replacing parts (motherboard, CPU, hard drive, memory, video card, etc) when needed. 

Usually when I'm fixing a computer, someone else (the owner) is paying for parts and my labor. 

So I could certainly learn how to fix modern locomotives, by testing them and replacing defective parts when needed. 

But right now, I'm concerned with the extra costs of fixing my own trains, so I tend to stay with cheaper products. But I admit, I love some of the modern trains. But it's cheaper to fix postwar Marx, American Flyer and Lionel trains. 

When I have more money saved up, I will probably get myself both the MTH DCS and Lionel legacy systems, and a few nice diesels. Perhaps in the near future, I will be able to afford it. I have no problems with working on electronics, when I can afford replacement parts.


But right now I can't. 


Howard


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When you get good at repairs, you can finance the hobby by doing repairs. I do repairs for a local train shop, that's what is going to pay for my new Lionel Vision Line Big Boy.


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When you get good at repairs, you can finance the hobby by doing repairs. I do repairs for a local train shop, that's what is going to pay for my new Lionel Vision Line Big Boy.


That is quite true, I could maybe do something like that; doing repairs for other people, to finance the hobby. 

It's nice you are able to pay for your purchases, doing that.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I agree that this is a personal choice. My trains are from 1946 to present day.
I do like whistles, horns and bells but the other sounds can get irritating.
Non model railroading visitors to my layout like the other sounds so I use them 
when I have visitors. IMHO kids especially like the sounds.


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

Me also, I basically like the whistles, horns and bells. I don't need most of the other sounds. I admit they are nice once in a while, but I would not want to hear it all the time. Especially if I had many trains operating at the same time. It just becomes a bunch of noise to me. 

I can see how visitors and especially kids would be excited to hear the sounds.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

If all the extra sounds will help bring young people into the hobby I am
all for them. I don't have to use them.


----------



## 611Railman (Feb 28, 2014)

Howard 1975 stated, _"If I had a lot of money, I would happily buy the latest DCS and TMCC/Legacy locomotives. I think they are cool looking, and have lot's of interesting features. I would love to have a wireless walk around controller, and be able to run many locomotives on a single track."_
I have a Lionel Polar Express that I was able to get for around $200.00 that has the remote control. However I am beginning to question if I would have been better off to get the one with the transformer control. I understand what you are wanting to do but I still am not convinced I made the best choice for me.
With the Lionel Lion Chief system you can run multiple trains using different controls on the same track. The track is charged at all times and the control gives the commands to the engine.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I like hands on the throttle, screw the new electronic stuff. 

It is nice if (when) it works, but expensive to initially buy and then repair. Even if you repair it yourself parts are not cheap. I say at sometime they will need repair.
Like mentioned you can turn down or off the sounds? At least the few I have you can.

Search through all the threads here asking about problems people with the electronic trains and layouts.

Give me prewar or post war trains any day. :thumbsup:

John didn't tell you that he has the use of a big club layout with all the bells and whistles to use. And has not put out the money to build one at home........yet. 
( I been waiting for years now to see it develop, I stopped asking him.:dunno

The cost factor is less when your building old school layouts.:smokin:


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

Too be honest, I like the traditional controls more. In fact I recently bought a MRC ControlMaster XI power pack for my HO and N trains. It's an older unit from the 1960's or 1970's, with the gold/copper colored metal finish. The Controlmaster XI has a 5 position brake, both volt and amp meters, as well as adjustable pulse and momentum controls. It's a transistor output so it works quite good with modern can motors, as well as older open frame motors. I have tried it with a few different locomotives, and it works great. I used a few older Athearn diesels to test open frame motors, and some modern N scale diesels also, to test modern can motors. 

When I do eventually build myself a Lionel layout (I just have a carpet layout at this time, with a MARX steamer), I'll get myself a few bigger postwar Lionel transformers. Perhaps a few LW 125 watt transformers, or the 190 watt KW, or the 275 watt ZW (if I find a good bargain on that). 

I already know I want to build myself a postwar layout, and also run some prewar trains, and Marx. Not sure of the track yet. Maybe I'll choose Lionel tubular (with prewar switches which can handle the fat wheels on prewar locomotives), or maybe Gargraves track (and make my own switches, to handle fat wheels). 

And I know I can get reliable locomotives from Williams, if I want some more modern diesels, like today on BNSF, UP, NS, CSX. 

I know I don't need the modern trains with DCS/TMCC/Legacy. I know the electronics can be more problems (compared to postwar), and it's more expensive to purchase initially, and more expensive to repair. 

Right now, I need to stay with cheap, rugged and reliable.


----------



## Howard1975 (Jan 6, 2014)

611Railman said:


> Howard 1975 stated, _"If I had a lot of money, I would happily buy the latest DCS and TMCC/Legacy locomotives. I think they are cool looking, and have lot's of interesting features. I would love to have a wireless walk around controller, and be able to run many locomotives on a single track."_
> I have a Lionel Polar Express that I was able to get for around $200.00 that has the remote control. However I am beginning to question if I would have been better off to get the one with the transformer control. I understand what you are wanting to do but I still am not convinced I made the best choice for me.
> With the Lionel Lion Chief system you can run multiple trains using different controls on the same track. The track is charged at all times and the control gives the commands to the engine.



The key words are, "If I had the money". I don't have the money right now, at this stage in my life. I can only dream about the modern systems. 

Postwar is cheaper to purchase, and to repair. So I'll stay with it.


----------

