# It Starts...Riv Cab Forward Re-motoring



## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I just started this project today...

Scroll down for pictures, so far.

The Riv Cab Forward I have does not use the spring clip to hold in the front driver set. The front and rear are held in by screws. 

I am using the Faulhaber 2224sr motor. This motor is coreless and its power connections are isolated from the motor's body. Good news for DCC!!!

The motor is not a drop in replacement. It is too long. So, I had to cut out the original motor's cast in mounting and grind out some metal.

I also noted that the original set up, the motor shaft is 5mm from the frame. I had to make a new motor mount out of 1/8 in angle aluminum. I need to do some finish work on it then mount it on the frame. I will also need to either shorten the drive shaft and grind and flat spot on the new motor, or use Grabbem's fuel line and aluminum tube trick for the this section. I will probably go with Grabbem's set up to avoid grit and filing getting into the motor.

The motor uses 2mm screws, but is is a 6 bolt patterns instead of a 4 or 8. a 4 or 8 pattern would be better for easier clocking. I do have it test fitted in the angle aluminum. I also need to drill a bigger hole so that the motor can sit flush against its new mount.

I measured 5mm from the edge of the angle aluminum to get the mount height correct. It will be mounted to the frame.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Wanna borrow my mig welder?????????? 
Good work so far, nothins ever easy!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Looks good and don't feel bad the new 4-6-4 is being a pita compared to the other model..some things are just unexpected and unexplainable.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

MIG welder....YEAH!!! I do need to learn how to weld!!

Grabbem, what are you trying to re-motor? BB Athearns are easy.

I think once I get this Cab Forward done, it will be worth it.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

No arhearn and yes too easy

I got another 4-6-4 and since it was nicer I swapped everything from one 4-6-4 to this one

Now I got a true comparison between motors and I will admit there is a huge difference


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I can't wait to get the Cab Forward running. I am going to use your way to make a drive shaft. Luckily there is an R/C store about 15 miles away where I can get fuel line and metal tubing. I live in the boonies.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well I got mine figured out and it seems I have terrible luck with rear trucks lol!

No more tight radius turns till I figure out what's hitting what

I put truck on the other one and all is fine so I'm concluding it's the tender drop bar it hits the rear truck and makes anything under 16* radius to hang up


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Well, I got the motor mounted, and I used the original drive shaft, but cut it to fit and drilled a hole in the center to mount on the motor.

It's a hair off, as the slotted side binds a bit. I think the hole was not centered real good to attach to the motor. I'll post pictures tomorrow.

Grabbem, on the slotted metal shaft, did your rubber and aluminum one fit well? On the Cab Forward, there is only the slotted end that sticks out from the gear assembly.

Oh, all my Rivs will take an 18" radius curve, but will not negotiate anything smaller like the 16" radius.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

I kept tweaking the drop bar and the rear truck pivot bracket and I only got a smidgen of hang up... Mote like a snag but I'm stopping there till I got 100% good contact between tender and engine so I'm going to run a wire directly to the motor so i know my direct contact isn't lost on the bar

Now my driveshaft slips onto both round/motor and transmission slot style very tight with no play or modifications 

The tubing I got now is a little big so I'm kinda out unless I can shrink it


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I could not find the fuel line you have or the sizing. I did find "small" silicone fuel line and 3/16 x 0.14 aluminum piping. The fuel line fits very tight on the new motor, but not so much on the slotted end of the Riv driveshaft. 

The silcone was also some what loose in the aluminum pipe, by itself. What I did was take a 256 size pin about 1/4 inch long and worked it into the silicone tube and then pulled the tube and pin to make a tight fit. Then I crimped the end onto the slotted drive shaft.

For the motor end, I made a 1/4 in long outer sleeve and slid it on the silcone fuel line, installed the RIV drive assembly, then slid the silicone line onto the motor shaft. Then I slid the outer sleeve over the motor shaft and fuel line, making it a very tight fit.

Then I tested the assembly. It was very quite and smooth. I did test fit the fame and the upper and lower shell, and it fit without issues. Now I need to solder up the wiring, install and LED for the headlight and then re-assemble. 

Here are the pictures...


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Nice work, now I'm getting the bug to open up the sunset brass engine to see if I can make a new driveshaft.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Thanks, Cuda!!!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

When I Run into one of my buddies at I'll get 2ft from him and make 5 inch drafts and send it you guys and let you cut it down to size

Btw my new replacement 4-6-4 is flawless! The trailing truck bracket was tweaked

So it's dcc time!!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

YAY!!! To everything!

Good news on the 4-6-4.

I'm saving up to get the Soundtraxx decoder for the Cab Forward.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ok I got another crafty idea which is available everywhere!

Since my first hobby is r/c racing I figured I'd check an old antenna from an analog receiver (car receiver not radio) would work guess what? Perfect snug fit even on the rivarossi motor!

These are like 25 cents or a dollar?? Wouldn't no since all my stuff is digital.

Find the metal tubing that fits over the antenna BAM! Driveshaft!

If you can't find any jlmk and I'll send some


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## blackz28 (Jan 6, 2013)

i have an old cabforward hanging around so im watching closely


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## dannyrandomstate (Jan 1, 2012)

blackz28 said:


> i have an old cabforward hanging around so im watching closely


Glad I wasn't the only one!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

What is the most cars without struggling can those pull?

Really curious because I just added weight in the nose of this 4-6-4 Hudson and pulled 26 cars without breaking her down!

I bet this motor could pull 5-6lbs if traction wasn't an issue!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Grabbem88 said:


> Ok I got another crafty idea which is available everywhere!
> 
> Since my first hobby is r/c racing I figured I'd check an old antenna from an analog receiver (car receiver not radio) would work guess what? Perfect snug fit even on the rivarossi motor!
> 
> ...


Sounds Great!!!

Address PM'd. 

How does it fit on the Falhaber?


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Tight as well I slipped the driveshaft on the faulhaber first then slipped through hole to tranny and it's very snug 

I got your pm and how much length do you need?

I will keep both antenna and tube separate and I would coat the antenna with some silicone I'm using the tube as a brace to stop the flex plastic creates when spun at 5000 rpm..


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

About two inches is all. Thanks Grabbem!

I did test run it on my portable layout this weekend. That one motor is strong enough to spin the wheels even with the traction bands. Had a Bachmann car with the knuckle couplers grab on to the cross rail of a switch. It runs a bit slow, but the torque is amazing. Besides a Cab Forward was not built speed!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ok I'll have 3 cut to be safe sent out when I got off work in the morning.

Yeah the speed drastically slowed down but it will pull as many cars traction permits at the slowest speed possible


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Thanks Grabbem!!!

I did test the amp draw when stalled at full power, it was 0.2 amps. So no worries on blowing out a decoder!

That Faulhaber motor has some serious grunt to it.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Did you see my video???

Given the traction/weight provided things will break before the motor bogs lol


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Btw I'm trying to find that darn SP key chain the wide made


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Yes, I did see the videos! They were great! I saw the wheels slipping...pretty amazing!

SP key chain huh? I have a real SP MOW Fairmont A4 I need to restore so it can go back on the rails.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

I chunked weight all over that thing and this thing unfortunately won't pull more than 10 passenger cars so that super slow speed is really going to pay off.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Yes it will! I do know if I installed a geared magnifier, it kill the torque.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Man I don't know did you test the motor and try to stop the shaft?

Fingers got pretty hot lol!

Your can over must be geared high?

Oh crap I almost forgot the shaft you made might be putting a bog to it?

My first shaft covered both shafts completely and when bolted tight pushed on the bearing..

Loosen the screws a half turn and see if loco speeds up?

I left a 2mm gap on both ends because of this


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I did try to stop the shaft from spinning...I had the same hot fingers, and the shaft did not stop! 

The old can motor has a higher RPM at full voltage. I'll take a slower, more powerful locomotive though.

I did the same adjustments you did, and it's easy to turn manually. I had to even loosen the RIV gear box a bit, as fully tightend, it was harder to spin manually even with the drive shaft disconnected.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ok just wanted to make sure cause I over looked that when you was talking about speed.

I say my top speed is equal to one of my proto s1's or even my kato rs11's 

I think my kato sd45 and sd40-2's are the only ones that can pull as many cars that my 4-6-4 with same amount of slippage since my hand jumped the gun on the throttle lol!

So if that gives anyone reading this a clue low voltage and tq the 40 bucks is worth the money


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I agree, it is totally worth the $40. Now to get rid of the Rivarossi Wobble on the curves.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Wobble the weight in behind the light in the front stopped mine

I think the springs are too stiff?? Well mine has them


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm glad I finally got a post that bennifitted somebody else and managed to be worthy


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

The others are just as worthy, you'd be surprised how many people are taking notes, this time someone did it instantly.
I'm still sittin on the decals for the New Haven switcher, maybe one nice cold winter nite this year!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Man send that sucker to me and I'll have it done and sent out before the weeks end..

Seriously 

Spray dullcote gloss 2-3 Coates 

Apply decals let dry over night

Spray dullcote satin or whatever the lowest stage is

And it will look almost factory


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Mine wobbles in time with the drivers. I had it fixed once before...and now I remember how to fix it. Make sure the drive rods are not sync together in timing 90 to 180 degrees off is better.

Grabbem, I read all the posts, but pay attention to anything that improves operation, like remotoring, etc. I'm glad you posted what you did, and I had the extra coin at the time.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

So you are my other mecho guy here considering your mounting plate you did great! 

I got some 1/18 scale motors from my mini rock crawlers when I upgraded them to brushless I tossed these in my junk good box 

Same size and maybe length too 

I will lmao if these work as well 

No more victims to try it on now selling other to recoupe some of my investment 

The motor is a losi micro with a 2mm shaft with little to no noise


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I had the 1/8 in angle aluminum left over from building the portable train board. I used it as bracing. Thanks for the compliment! I had to make two of them because the first got messed up by my carelessness. Learn as you go!

It will be interesting to see if the old motors you have work. I would be game to trying one in a Riv GG1.

When I brought the Faulhaber to the hobby shop, the R/C guys were drooling on it.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yep I figured as much it would be a great scaler motor for those too real looking trucks lol


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

It is a good little motor!


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ok your d/s will be sent out today when wife gets done with what she has to do.

Only advice mock your length with Rc antenna 

Then take tube measure get it exact then take 1/8th off so antenna lips out on either end.

This is so when you push everything together the over hang can be used for fine tuning not the tube


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Ok, cool! Thanks for the info, the drive shaft, and the instructions!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Here are pics of the front all assembled.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Hey Grabbem!! Guess what arrived today...

THANKS!!!!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Interesting...I just found out that my Faulhaber motor is a 24 volt, not a 12 volt. That would explain why the Cab Forward runs so slow...this info came from the supplier.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Got room for a step up transformer in there? 
Was that a mistake, do they make a 12 volt ?


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

They shipped me the 24 volt. No room for a step up transformer...but I do have a 12 volt one coming in. I need to change the headlight to an LED anyway...yeah!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I should have the 12v motor on Wednesday...

YAY!


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I just installed the 12V motor. What a difference in speed! The 12 volt motor has the same low speed grunt as the 24v. 

I did see a difference in the numbering to designate a 12v VS. a 24v.

The 12v number is 2224UO12S

The 24v number is 2224UO24S

Grabbem, look at the number on the back or your motor. That will tell you what you have.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

:thumbsup: So I gather it was an easy switch, everything lined up the same! :thumbsup:


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's a 12v.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

So how ya like my driveshaft??


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Rich, yes, it was a direct fit!!!

Grabbem, the DS is WONDERFUL!!! I'm going to do a slight mod to the Riv driveshaft...JB Weld the flat spots.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

I think it makes the motor swap look proffessional and clean


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Yes, it does! No crimping needed!


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

RRgrassi,

May I check with you after re motoring with a brute manbuchi motor,

What might be the possible causes for a rivarossi big boy to stall. Sometime I need to nudge the loco a bit to start. my other proto 2k engines run fine on the sections (even during DCC ops

it always stall at the same section of track before a switch frog and also anoth section of curve...

The only way I can pass that curve and that switch is to run at FULL speed and the train will bash through it...anything at 1/2 speed will stall the train 

What is the likely cause of problem from your experience in remotoring cab forwards (both structure are a lot similar)

A) weak motor? (The mabuchi is 12v and use to automate a door

B) drive shaft problems (but my plastic tube didnt buckle)

C) must the drive shaft be aligned straight? you see, the mabuchi is real fat, the motor shaft does not align wih the rivarossi DS, the plastic tube is flexible to bend but did not buckle. 


E) electrical pickup problems? 

F) powerpack? I am using a v powerful MRC tech 4

Sorry to hijack your thread but I really hope to hear from your experience

Thanks 
Musicwerks


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

I can answer that for ya

Where are your power pick-ups at?

If only one set of drivers has contacts when it gets on or just past the frog the frog has no power running though it therefore additional contacts are required on either the driver trucks or trailing and sometimes the front runners to keep the loco running


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

Hmm Art...interesting question. I am also wondering myself where the pickups are at...unlike roundhouse MDC and bachmann, I can't seem to find wipers hidden behind the wheels. 

I have been looking at the driver wheels for nights, I am still unsure. I know that the front 2 bogies have metal contacts so it must pickup some current.


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

You might have to add some bud


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi Art,

I managed to figure it out using my multimeter, doing a continuity test on the driver wheels on opposite ends.

I read on-line and hear many griping about that Rivarossi Big Boys have very horrible pickups- info from the websites I read indicated that there are only 2 wheels of the 16 wheels that are picking up power located at the first wheel and last wheel...hence the poor performance of Rivarossi big boys.

After my continuity test, I found the the pickups are the 1st and 3rd wheels of each articulated unit. The 2nd and 4th are not picking up. There are also wipers in the rear end bogies which must be touch the metal axle of the bogie wheels.

Mystery solved. My Rivarossi rear bogie pickup wipers are NOT touching the wheel axles, and after bending them to the axles, I was very surprised that the train performed really well (what a difference a rear bogie wiper makes!!)

Thank you so much for your encouragement and help, and RRgrassi too for his inputs and help too. I have finally re-motored my Rivarossi Big boy successfully.

Now it runs like a hornby/ bachman over the dead frog point and curves too(22" curves, tight)...minus all the old Rivarossi motor noise.

Cheers
Musicwerks 
Kiong


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Glad we all could help.. I felt obligated to you and rrgassi since I was the one that started this motor upgrade and I wouldn't have pushed this if I didn't feel it was worth the work


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

The Tender Bogies can get you! Also, when you do your maintenance, make sure that cleaning the tender wheels and electrical pick-ups are on the list.

Art, when I get Riv Big Boy, guess what is getting a new motor and drive shaft...for me, milling the frame was the hardest par, as all I have a is a Dremel.

Musicwerks, Glad we could all help out!


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## blackz28 (Jan 6, 2013)

rrgrassi said:


> The Tender Bogies can get you! Also, when you do your maintenance, make sure that cleaning the tender wheels and electrical pick-ups are on the list.
> 
> Art, when I get Riv Big Boy, guess what is getting a new motor and drive shaft...for me, milling the frame was the hardest par, as all I have a is a Dremel.
> 
> Musicwerks, Glad we could all help out!


good so i guess we can expect a full write up with pics :appl::appl::appl:
cause then im gonna buy up all the old big boys & go to town :smokin:


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

Now I have starting to dcc the loco...

More challenges now. I cut the metal weight frame into 2 using a hack saw (no Dremel)

Cables are all isolated now.

Things went south again but I shall not be daunted.

The loco stutters when on dcc 

A) I resoldered every joint to ensure conductivity 

B) RV pick up problems? The loco runs well when I flipped it over and touch with wires on the pick up drivers/wheels...the loco runs well even at low speed...

C) I hear a soft humming sound when dcc current applied but no movement when placed on tracks

I suspect it seems to a motor problem, it can't get enough current in dcc....

Only way is to wait for faulhaber to arrive to verify this


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi blackz,

U can refer to my thread

'Finally I own a big boy, re motoring help needed' in general discussion forum

It did a reflection with pictures. It runs well IMHO in DC now...not dcc yet


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Musicwerks, are you using a decoder yet? Mine works fine in on DC. If you are not using a decoder, then the motor does have a high pitched hum, and that is because of the square wave AC power getting to it. The Cab Forward did run, but not as well as on DC power. That will change when I install my decoder. I still have to order it.


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi regrassi,

Mine runs good in DC until I convert to dcc.

I am using Digitrax DH123D which I felt was really reliable as I have dcc all my rivarossi GG-1 and they run really well.

Now, as I study the loco with the decoder, I noticed 2 things.

A) the mabuchi motor seems weaker now in DCC, less torque which needed for smooth operation,

B) driverwheel poor pickup. When I press the loco down, the motor will run faster than when pressure is not applied.

I have applied lots of lead weight to the body still can't increase the downward pressure to increase conductivity.

In short, a combination of poor motor performance and mostly pickup problem


C) anyone has anyway to improve/ increase the wheels/ driver pickup of rivarossi?

Kiong


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Musicwerks,

Usually adding more weight does help with the electrical pick up. Find out what the NMRA recommended weight is a HO Big Boy is. I have a Mantua Pacific that out weighs my Cab Forward. 

There should be other wheels in the driver set that also picks up current. 

The problem with the motor and current to the motor should be able to be programmed, like starting voltage, etc. I do not have many Digitrax decoders.


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## musicwerks (Jan 4, 2012)

Thanks RRgrassi.

I know why my pick-up initally was bad. I missed out 1 wire to the pickup

There are 2 to track connections (kind of fail-safe to improve pickup) on the fireman side, which leads to the drivers.

Once I re-soldered the 2 track connections together the red of decoder, the pickup becomes instantly better (quite very good in fact). 

Now I am struggling to put the shell in with all the wires and decoder (DH123D) and without pressing on the universals.

Noted, once I get the Big Boy to run on DCC, I will programme it in my JMRI. 

Things seems to be looking brighter as the hours pass by.

Cheers


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

It always gets better!!! I'm glad for you that things are looking up!


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