# Dehumidifiers and AC



## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

Can a dehumidifier and a air conditioner help me with Florida's infamous humidity? I have a decent shed that's dry and allows room for a 4'X10' layout. Its the table I don't want warping up into a pretzel! In the winter time, would a heater help any or just worthless? I know the table will shrink in winter and expand in summer. I want a HO layout badly and have no room for it here in my rented room! I plan on silling the 2 end vents up to where the AC ain't trying to cool off outside air! What's y'all's thought on this set up?


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

The bigger question here is why not use the "shed" for an around-the-walls layout?? Probably MUCH more sq footage and track length. 'Course, duckunders and/or swingouts may factor into your plans...

Imma quite sure that climate-conditioning the interior will make u and ur layout a LOT more comfortable, and that it's not a waste of money.:sold:


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## Northern Route (May 12, 2014)

A/C and a dehumidifier will help quit a lot. I also agree that you might think about an around the room layout, but that is another matter. Another thing to do when building the layout is to paint all of the bench work with a good paint to keep the wood from absorbing the moisture in the air. There may be other techniques out there that will help with the humidity.

Curtis


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## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

No room for around the walls. Have stuff stored in there. Would be nice though.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Is the building just a storage shed, with no insulation? If so, you will probably need to put up some insulation before AC will do any good. A dehumidifier will definitely help, and it's the humidity that really causes warping. Be careful trying to seal the ceiling vents. They are there for a reason. Any sealed space is at risk of having the wrong mix of gasses to support life (too much CO2, CO, or too little oxygen). More importantly, oxygen degrades into ozone at high temps, and that will make your little train shed uncomfortable.

Another thing to consider -- while AC may make you more comfortable while you're in there, you'll need to provide some level of temperature control 24/7 to keep your electronics from cooking and plastic from deforming.


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## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

No insulation. Just a storage shed.


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> ...More importantly, oxygen degrades into ozone at high temps...


I would love, love the science on that one.




THE TYCO MAN said:


> No insulation. Just a storage shed.


That's a sucker bet. My unsolicited advice is choose a scale for layout purposes, and display the rest until you have more room, a slightly better situation, or both.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Tyco

You might check around to see what it would cost to put foam
or bat insulation in the ceiling and walls. It'll pay for itself
in comfort and JEA bills. You might also watch Craigslist
for a used A/C or better yet, a window heat pump. There's
probably others to be found at the multitudes of Pawn
shops here in Jax. There's 5 or 6 of 'em on Blanding Bv.
between Roosevelt and Orange Park.

I have a 10 X 10 yard shed, but I sure would not want
to spend any time in it without something to cool it off.

Unless you have yard and other tools hanging on the walls,
You could do a semi shelf type around the walls layout
by building it above the stored items.

Don


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

I plan on using my attic and definitely will have AC and a portable heater in winter. A dehumidifier should really help you in FL.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Disclaimer, I dont live in Florida! But ,as stated seal all sides of the table , im thinking a marine grade varnish. Put foam down on the table, that dosent absorbe moisture. Build layout. Just leave a little wiggle room when attaching your track. Kinda like vinal sidding. If it expands a bit the whole track will at the same rate. If its to snug , the track might warp. A bit loose your in the green. The woodwork, if sealed will not expand. The dehumidifier will help with surface rust etc. The ac will make it barable to run the trains. An ac works like a dehumidifier when on. Thats why they need lines or a window to get rid of condensate. Good to go! Have fun . Ment to put spar varnish , like they use on boats.


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## SRV1 (Nov 14, 2010)

I wouldn't spend a penny on electricity for climate control before you insulate the place. Are you prepared for the extra cost added to your electric bill for 24/7 cooling? It could be 20 to $30/month or more. Especially with the dehumidifier and AC unit running. These are pretty much the worst energy hogs there is.

I run central air, dehumidify an old basement, have a fridge, a chest freezer, and run a window AC upstairs at night because the central air doesn't cool the upstairs adequately in this old house when it's hot. Our electric bill surges drastically in the summer months.

A little known trick that could help you out with this is balancing your electrical load. Your breaker box has A phase and B phase sides. The utility company is only able to read/charge you for one side which is the highest usage. So technically everything on one side is free. 
Put your AC on one circuit and dehumidifier on the other. Then when they're both running, ones running for free. Even when its intermittent, one's cancelling the other out. If you put them on the same 'leg' or phase, say both on A, then you're charged fully for both, whether they're running independently or at the same time. 

If the outlets are already installed, you can shut off breakers and test what goes to what so you can pick which ones you want to plug into. Would help to have a second person and a cell phone. You could also buy some romex and run a conduit out. Put the wires into any breaker you want to make it work. 
It all depends on how much of a long term commitment you think this will be. I have a hard enough time keeping an insulated house cool in northern IL. I can't imagine what it would take to keep a shed comfortable in FL.


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

SRV1 said:


> A little known trick that could help you out with this is balancing your electrical load. Your breaker box has A phase and B phase sides. The utility company is only able to read/charge you for one side which is the highest usage. So technically everything on one side is free.


That is complete nonsense.


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## SRV1 (Nov 14, 2010)

The New Guy said:


> That is complete nonsense.


25 year union electrician/civil engineer explained this concept and was verified by another electrician in the family. Can you elaborate on your opinion? Maybe it is non-sense.

http://electrical.about.com/od/appliances/qt/Balancing-Electrical-Loads.htm


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

SRV1 said:


> 25 year union electrician/civil engineer explained this concept and was verified by another electrician in the family. Can you elaborate on your opinion? Maybe it is non-sense.
> 
> http://electrical.about.com/od/appliances/qt/Balancing-Electrical-Loads.htm


Balancing the loads doesn't mean that the utility csn't see, meter, and bill you for loading on one side of your system. As your electrical demand increases, you may begin to show high peak power consumption, which results in a higher rate per kwh, or a surcharge. It is this peak demand which is measured off one side of your system (the one with the highest usage). If all your heavy loads are on one side, you may be paying too much for your electricity, even for kwh usage on the low demand side. Trust me, the utilities bill you for every nanowatt you use.

Load balancing is a good way to save on your electric bill (heck, my local utility actually explained it to me), but not by getting free electricity.

If your electrician buddies don't know the difference between measuring / estimating peak demand and metering consumption, you should find another electrician ASAP.


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## SRV1 (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok. They read the peak usage. It doesnt matter which side it ends up being.

Balancing the load as close to 50/50 as possible will cause you to be charged less than loading everything up on one side. Running the same equipment the same amount of time!!!!! I guess the terminology of "free" isnt appropriate in making the comparison for some. 

Thanks for setting me straight!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The New Guy said:


> I would love, love the science on that one.


My bad. I had that one bass ackwards. Heat actually accelerates the coversion of ozone into regular oxygen.

Regardless, it's not a good idea to seal a small space like a shed, especially if any chemicals are stored there.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

SRV1 said:


> Ok. They read the peak usage. It doesnt matter which side it ends up being.
> 
> Balancing the load as close to 50/50 as possible will cause you to be charged less than loading everything up on one side. Running the same equipment the same amount of time!!!!! I guess the terminology of "free" isnt appropriate in making the comparison for some.
> 
> Thanks for setting me straight!


No worries. FWIW, I just got my conservation assessment from CT Light and Power today. 8 months of the year, I'm in the 80th percentile (meaning I use less electricity than 80% of my neighbors). In the summer, with 3 window AC units, a dehumidifier, and 4-5 fans, I drop to the 20th percentile. And my electric bill more than doubles. Ouch.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok , were a bit off track now. No biggie. I never heard of load balancing before. Im not an electrician. Ive installed many electrical panels in my lifetime. All the high load stuff gets distributed across both bars anyway? Makes a bit of sense , in that you dont want to overload one leg of the system. But nowadays everything is a lot more efficient. My fridge , while a high energy hog , is nothing compared to the friges in the past. I had an old refrigerator in the basement for water, etc. I cut my bill by 1/3 by unpluging it. I have three newer window acs(2 )12 or 14 thousand btu and one 8 thousand btu) , I run them constantly. My bill is only 50$ more a month.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For single phase residential power, you are not charged for an imbalanced load. Since your home power is single phase, the transformer sorts out the imbalance on the power company side of the fence. The meter measures the current in the two hot lines, it doesn't care if there is neutral current. You are still charged for the actual power used, balanced or imbalanced.

For industrial 3-phase power service, you will be charged for imbalanced loads, and load balancing is obviously important there. Industrial power service also reflects charges for low power factor loads if they exist.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

I lived in Miami for a few years. No doubt the heat and humidity in Fla or down south in general can be brutal. But I think the talk of humidity rendering wood useless is over the top. Yes I do know high humidity can and does affect wood dimensionally. But plywood is for all practical purposes dimensionally stable. For years it was used for layouts, track may have been nailed,screwed, glued directly to it or cork road bed. Then there's the Homasote discussion about stability.
Useless you're using 16d nails every 4 inches or lag bolts I doubt you'll have a problem with track kinks if you leave a small gap between track sections every few feet. My 2¢


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

When I was doing woodworking in my workshop I tried to run a dehumidifier once.

Mine was like an air conditioner.
Cooled air came out the front and HOT air came out the back.
It would drop the humidity some however, it raise the temperature in the workshop and the air conditioner had to work harder to over come the extra heat from the dehumidifier.

I found that an air conditioner worked as well if left running , on a lowered setting when not working, all the time.

I also found that 50% humidity was OK for wood that was going to be in a house or a controlled space.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, unless you vent it outside (in which case it's an air-conditioner), all the electrical energy used by the dehumidifier will be turned into heat.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JackC said:


> I lived in Miami for a few years. No doubt the heat and humidity in Fla or down south in general can be brutal. But I think the talk of humidity rendering wood useless is over the top. Yes I do know high humidity can and does affect wood dimensionally. But plywood is for all practical purposes dimensionally stable. For years it was used for layouts, track may have been nailed,screwed, glued directly to it or cork road bed. Then there's the Homasote discussion about stability.
> Useless you're using 16d nails every 4 inches or lag bolts I doubt you'll have a problem with track kinks if you leave a small gap between track sections every few feet. My 2¢


Wood useless? Yes, that's pushing it a bit. Plywood is not, however so dimensionally stable as to be immune to humidity. One look at the scrap lumber in my garage will demonstrate that. The thicker sheets are less susceptible to warping, and hardwood is more stable than softwood. Better to seal the plywood with paint to be sure.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure what is considered "practically" dimensionally stable.

I had some fir posts that were used in my garage to support the second floor office above the garage, that's what they used when the house was built 25 years ago. They changed size with the seasons enough to cause plaster cracking in a number of places along the wall above. I estimated they were moving close to 1/2" at the extreme, too much for the walls above. I finally replaced them with steel columns, no more movement of the floor and cracking of the walls.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Grj, a lot can account for that. Moisture content of the wood, how it was fastened etc. While I'm sure it happened , the problem of finding the exact cause is harder.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Steel has it's own issues. For one thing, heat can cause significant expansion. This is why rails on the prototype get heat kinks in them (which is really cool, if you're not in that railroad's Operations department).


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Hundreds or thousands of feet of steel (RR tracks) will react quite a lot longitudinally to environmental temperature extremes. House construction lengths of steel will move at the same rate under those same conditions, but their short length makes the difference negligible. I'm just thinking GRJ found his problem with the wood and corrected it with steel.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> Hundreds or thousands of feet of steel (RR tracks) will react quite a lot longitudinally to environmental temperature extremes. House construction lengths of steel will move at the same rate under those same conditions, but their short length makes the difference negligible. I'm just thinking GRJ found his problem with the wood and corrected it with steel.


I agree. I wasn't saying he was going to have an issue with his repairs -- and if you read his post, he obiously doesn't. Besides, the temperatures necessary to make big changes usually require direct sunlight. But it does have a noticeable affect, even at household sizes: my casement door opens very easily in the winter, but on hot summer days, they jam closed and require a strong shove to open.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> I agree. I wasn't saying he was going to have an issue with his repairs -- and if you read his post, he obiously doesn't. Besides, the temperatures necessary to make big changes usually require direct sunlight. But it does have a noticeable affect, even at household sizes: my casement door opens very easily in the winter, but on hot summer days, they jam closed and require a strong shove to open.


By golly, you're right! I've found aluminum screen doors do that too. Obviously the clearance between door and frame is inadequate. Thanks for correcting me! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Since the steel posts have been in for a few years now, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to give me issues. I don't know if they're moving at all, but I do know that any movement would have to be measured with a micrometer, it totally cured the problem.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> By golly, you're right! I've found aluminum screen doors do that too. Obviously the clearance between door and frame is inadequate. Thanks for correcting me! :smilie_daumenpos:


Well, a lot of things in my house are inadequate. Darned builder was a scumbag. Can you say, "By what stretch of the imagination does this meet code?" Must have been giving kickbacks to the building inspector.

If I wasn't spending so much time, effort and money on my hobbies, I'd have rebuilt half the house by now.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Since the steel posts have been in for a few years now, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to give me issues. I don't know if they're moving at all, but I do know that any movement would have to be measured with a micrometer, it totally cured the problem.


Yep. No argument. Got that two posts ago!


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