# I hate diesels



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Did I mention I hate diesels!!!! Been working on a customer/friends 377 for a no-run condition now for at least 4-6 weeks, and finally have figured it out!!!!.. First I replaced the broken field coil with a new one, and that didn't help. Checked the wiring at least 6 times, all was correct. Put in a new armature, that didn't do anything. Kept getting a short, and some smoking.. After MANY attempts at correcting the problem, I noticed the field wires were touching the brass holder/sling,( they don't give you much room). Fixed that and the motor came to life..Ran perfect on the bench but wouldn't run at all on the lay-out. Took it out this morning and test ran it on my friends lay-out, same thing.It would run about 3 inches, then go into reverse, then forward.I saw it was a intermittent power loss causing the problem, and pulled off the sintered pick-up wheel on the powered truck and replaced it with a NOS steel wheel.....The sucker took off, ran 816' without any stops, put it in reverse, and it ran over 750'.... I believe I fixed it, after all those weeks.. Now I have to come up with some type of labor charge, I can't charge the guy what I actually have in it... Parts bill is easy, labor not so much.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

At long last, persistence prevails, even over a Gilbert diesel!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Just look at what you learned! The brass holder, mmmm.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

T-Man said:


> Just look at what you learned! The brass holder, mmmm.


The 2 big gobs of solder were touching the brass sling, shorting it.


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## alaft61ri (Oct 11, 2019)

I new you could do it so the next one will be a breeze. Lol
Al


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

We are learning along with you. You can help all of us by doing all the work we hate and giving us solutions!!


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Kelpieflyer said:


> We are learning along with you. You can help all of us by doing all the work we hate and giving us solutions!!


I mean, I hate diesels, but I'll always give one a look for the heck of it. I repaired a dual motor diesel for a guy, and he was so happy it ran, he told me to just keep it!!!


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Now, if only you were an auto mechanic..... 😁


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Old_Hobo said:


> Now, if only you were an auto mechanic..... 😁


I used to be, but not with the new stuff..I still do all my own work on my 3 antique cars, and I was just in the junk yard yesterday to get parts for my 2002 Impala, and repaired it last night.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Flyernut, all you have been through and documented gives me hope that I may get my 370 with kc's running now. Like you, no matter what I tried nothing worked so I gave up and put the thing in a box and forgot about it. I had too many steamers that needed attention and I knew I could fix. Thanks for your detailed documentation. 

Kenny


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AFGP9 said:


> Flyernut, all you have been through and documented gives me hope that I may get my 370 with kc's running now. Like you, no matter what I tried nothing worked so I gave up and put the thing in a box and forgot about it. I had too many steamers that needed attention and I knew I could fix. Thanks for your detailed documentation.
> 
> Kenny


For you, I'll look at it....


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks for the offer flyernut. I think I will tackle it myself based off your information. If that leads to more frustration then I'll take you up on your offer. It will be a while because I gotta go help a buddy who has a 327 street rod that he wants to make a camshaft change in. I'll have to degree the cam and retime the cam timing to 4 degrees advanced. He doesn't know how to do that "fancy stuff" as he calls it. He doesn't have the degree wheel and the dial indicator to do it any way. That car runs super good now but more is better. After the cam change I will need to test drive it some you know. That's mandatory. At least 10 miles or so I think.

Kenny


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Are engines still built up with cams advanced 4 deg? When I rebuilt my 1969 442 back in 1993 I put in a factory W34 cam from a 1970 455. Tried it a zero, then put it in at plus 4 degrees. It made a big difference. Modern cams are ground to max performance straight up with the specified valves, rocker ratio, and compression. Advancing even these new cams can increase torque in a low RPM engine but if the engine spins to 6,000 rpm or higher it kills the top end. Its better to change the LSA spec on the cam grind to get the low end torque than advance a modern cam.
In any event I hope you enjoy the work, at least we now have some warm weather. Better you than me, I quit doing those kind of projects a decade ago. Don't even need to open the hood to check the oil, just bring it up in the Instrument cluster display. Ditto for the tire pressures, but I do have a compressor in the garage to keep the pressures correct.
I also have a non running 370, it is my original engine. After a cursory check I think it is a failed winding so I am ignoring it.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tom I haven't seen the cam spec sheet. My friend called and talked to a consultant and gave him all the engines' details. I built that engine originally. It doesn't have the standard 1.5 ratio rockers. The exhaust rockers are 1.6 ratio, with intakes still 1.5 ratio. It also has 6" connecting rods in it. It actually is pretty radical for a street engine. The heads are Mondello. It works just fine in his 2800 lb. car with a 4:11 gear. I do agree that advancing 4 degrees will normally limit the useable high rpms but that was the way I installed the original cam and he liked it. As it now sits, the present cam is a torque all in at 2800 rpm so it has good low end torque from idle and 7000 rpm max but it is shifted at 6500 to avoid going over the nose of the cam's 7000 useable rpms. That 2800 rpm torque, 4:11, and the 3.28 first gear ratio in the Muncie M22 Rock Crusher 4 speed seems to work just fine. Shifting into second is right away. Since the gears are all side cut as Muncie made them, you can't baby shift that Muncie. So back to your thoughts on the 4 degree advance, I will have to make a judgement call on why he even wants to change the camshaft. We've talked and I tried to talk him out of it. He has started drag racing at an 1/8th mile drag strip. I got a feeling he has been talking to some of the racers. By the way, this car is a real street driven car, wheelie bars and all. I wouldn't even think about it. That M22 shifting alone would get old real quick.
Do I enjoy this? Not like I used to but with the front clip off there is nothing in the way to bend over. Pull the radiator and there is the engine.
Until flyernut got to working on his project and posted his adventures, as I mentioned, I too ignored my 370. Maybe now?


Kenny


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Kenny, you got me curious so I pulled out the specs on my 1969's. I had never heard of an M22 with a 3.28 first gear. The Olds M20 had a 2.52 1st gear, that was the tranny I had. The Olds M22 used a 2.20 1st gear, with the remaining ratio's of 1.64, 1.28 and 1.0. For 1/8th mile racing wouldn'd the better choice be to put in a 4.56 rear end ratio? Then try both the straight up and 4 deg advance to see which gives the quickest times. Have fun!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

flyernut said:


> Did I mention I hate diesels!!!!


Ahhh, the smell of diesel in the morning. 
I love Diesels.
Give me a 600 plus horse Caterpillar any day. The more speeds the better, s crew automatics!
Roll down the road, & up the hills with 80,000 lbs like your empty.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Big Ed said:


> Ahhh, the smell of diesel in the morning.
> I love Diesels.
> Give me a 600 plus horse Caterpillar any day. The more speeds the better, s crew automatics!
> Roll down the road, & up the hills with 80,000 lbs like your empty.


I know what you mean, I was mentioning AF diesels,lol!!!. I loved the big diesels we had in the Service.We used to prank the turtles,(new guys)..Most of our diesels had the exhaust routed between the rear duals. We would take the trucks to the wash rack after a hard and dusty day, and we would fill the exhaust system with water. We would then call over a new guy and had him stand directly at the exhaust. We would then have a co-conspirator fire up the engine, and the rush of funky water would soak the poor guy to the bone,lol!!!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I put a brand new M22 tranny in my '65 GTO. It got stole (the tranny) that same night, never got to drive it.
Must have been a good friend. LOL


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

flyernut said:


> I know what you mean, I was mentioning AF diesels,lol!!!. I loved the big diesels we had in the Service.We used to prank the turtles,(new guys)..Most of our diesels had the exhaust routed between the rear duals. We would take the trucks to the wash rack after a hard and dusty day, and we would fill the exhaust system with water. We would then call over a new guy and had him stand directly at the exhaust. We would then have a co-conspirator fire up the engine, and the rush of funky water would soak the poor guy to the bone,lol!!!


Ha Ha Ha, I was just yanking your chain. 
That sounds like payback to me. Any of them ever get revenge?


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Big Ed said:


> Ha Ha Ha, I was just yanking your chain.
> That sounds like payback to me. Any of them ever get revenge?


Nope, only on another new guy....


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

AmFlyer said:


> Kenny, you got me curious so I pulled out the specs on my 1969's. I had never heard of an M22 with a 3.28 first gear. The Olds M20 had a 2.52 1st gear, that was the tranny I had. The Olds M22 used a 2.20 1st gear, with the remaining ratio's of 1.64, 1.28 and 1.0. For 1/8th mile racing wouldn'd the better choice be to put in a 4.56 rear end ratio? Then try both the straight up and 4 deg advance to see which gives the quickest times. Have fun!


As a follow up to our Muncie discussion, all Muncie 4 speeds whether M20, M21, or M22 had the same gear ratios you listed. The M22 had less helix, straighter angles, on the gears to reduce thrust loading on the gears which reduced heat and therefore cut down on horse power loss. Plus all the M22 gears were shot peened. Of course they had bigger everything inside. Also because of the reduction in gear helix cut there was the notorious whine which could only be heard in a stock production car. You certainly never heard it in a drag race car. I also misspoke on the 1st gear ratio. It was a 2.78 first gear. This M22 was custom built so the first 3 gears are all different from the factory. I had a Doug Nash 5 speed in the Pro Stocker. It had a 3.28 1st gear. That is where I got that number from. Too many numbers, and too little memory. Sorry about the confusion. Somewhere I have a complete gear break down of the Doug Nash. I changed gears in it at the race track more than once. It was no big deal because of the way the transmission was designed strictly for racing although I'm sure somebody has used on the street. 

Kenny


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Kenny, I do remember the whine in a M22. I liked it. You knew it was something different.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The M22's had an audible whine. I also recall they required at least a 3.91 ratio differential be ordered so the result was not an economy car.
When I read the post above an old memory, maybe faulty, surfaced. I think the standard wide ratio 4 speed in the 442 with the 2.52 1st gear was a Saginaw, not a Muncie. The later Doug Nash 5spd's were the ones to retrofit. The 442 also used the older B-O-P rear ends with the bolt in rear axles. They were HiPo versions with thicker axles and stronger splines. That is why the axle ratios are slightly different from the Chevy's with 12 bolt rear ends and C clip axles. 3.42 vs 3.55 as an example.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Loved that whine!! My buddy's 65 tri-power GTO had that wonderful whine, as well as the 67 GTO we street raced.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Back to trains, I still hate diesels. I've been working on a customers diesel chassis now for almost 2 months, and I sent him a note and said..."I QUIT"..first one in 30 years that beat me!!!!!!!!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I clean the commutators and adjust the brushes. Beyond that simple maintenance they are permanently parked if they stop running.


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