# Lionel Legacy Bluetooth?



## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Am I understanding correctly that the Bluetooth-enabled locomotives from Lionel can run directly from an app without any additional hardware? For example, MTH locos require the WIU and TIU to run from the app. Has Lionel bypassed spending the extra money? Obviously I’ll need to run power to the track, but other than that is it just locomotive and the app?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Correct, you just load up the app and find the locomotive. I'll be testing that when my H10 comes in.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I ordered a SD70ACE and was hoping that is the case. That was a major factor that pulled me from going with the MTH...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, I think Lionel slipped one in on MTH with the BT addition. It remains to be seen how well it works, I'll be able to do some testing in a few weeks, the H10's are supposed to be "on the water" now.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I don’t think mine is supposed to come in until mid-December.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

the only issue some folks in san digeo have found is the distant from the phone to the engine. if more then about 6 to 8 feet the engine stops because the Bluetooth does not have any more distance then that. if you follow the engine around no issue. our layout is 42 x 44 feet.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Hopefully that isn’t the case... Lol, I’d hate to have to put my phone on a flatcar and let it ride with my train. I guess MTH may not be out of the game yet.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

I don't think you get all bells and whistles with Blue tooth like Legacy. As far as distance I'll have to check that on my new Scale Polar Express engine.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Please share what you find, Bob.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Like you I have some Legacy engines with Bluetooth on order. But I also have 2 LionChief+ engines with Bluetooth. I wish I had a problem like a 40'+ layout! However, I use the app all the time and with the LC+ engines I've never had a single instance of it losing signal. I just experimented by stepping back as far as I could on the opposite side of the room while my engine was on the far side of the layout. That's approximately 25 feet. No effect. I think GRJ is right. I expect this is a game changer and MTH was caught napping. Time will tell.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I’m really glad to hear that, beachhead. Thanks for sharing and putting me a bit at ease. I wonder if large layouts running a bunch of accessories on different levels may also factor in? I remember watching one of Eric Segal’s videos about large layouts on varying levels needing to run an extra grounded wire between levels to get rid of interference. Maybe that would affect distance? I’m just guessing here.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you only get 6-8 feet, my guess is you have some signal interference. Even early BT could do better than that.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I will stay with the CAB2 (the grandkids like using it) and the iCab app.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Fabforrest said:


> I will stay with the CAB2 (the grandkids like using it) and the iCab app.


What's this? I'm a newbie.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's the full Legacy command control system, the CAB2 is the remote.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Thanks, gunrunner. I've read a lot about that vs. the MTH system. I guess I just wasn't up on the names. So many components to getting a layout going!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

My main experience with bluetooth is with motorcycle headsets. They transmit well over a 1/4er mile so its not the technology that is limiting distance. Interference or shielding I suspect could be the problem.

Pete


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2018)

I just tried running my LionChief Plus Berkshire with my smartphone. My train room is 10'9" x 20'4" and I had no problem controlling the locomotive. I went outside the room to see how far I could go before I lost contact with the locomotive. I was about 20' from the train room when I lost contact. I don't know if bluetooth is affected by walls and electrical wiring but there was a wall with wires in it between me and the locomotive.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

All this talk is making me want my engine to get here sooner. Going to be a long few weeks for me haha


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Runnikee, which Lionel model # are you waiting on?


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

SD70ACE. I wouldn’t mind an ES44 either. Norfolk Southern black and white standard colors.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Gotcha. Which Lionel Model # is the SD70ACe? There are a couple NS in this year's catalog: 6-85055 & 6-85056. Is it one of those?


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2018)

I wonder if it will be possible to retrofit legacy, TMCC and Conventional engines of the past, with today's Bluetooth technology without it costing an arm and a leg. Anyone have a sense of this possibility?

Emile


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

TheBigCrabCake said:


> Anyone have a sense of this possibility?
> 
> Emile


I don't but I'd love to know too. That would be fantastic.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Well if they do enjoy, I'll stay with my Cab2.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I was hoping to try it with my Vision Niagara but I don't find the app for my old iPad. I find Lionel LCS but not Lionchief. Can anyone confirm if the app works on an iPad? If so I assume my iOs is just too old. 

Pete


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

beachhead2 said:


> Gotcha. Which Lionel Model # is the SD70ACe? There are a couple NS in this year's catalog: 6-85055 & 6-85056. Is it one of those?


Lionel 6-85055 is the one I’m waiting on. Like I said, I’d go for an ES44 too, but the dealer said they weren’t getting any of those.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Norton said:


> I was hoping to try it with my Vision Niagara but I don't find the app for my old iPad. I find Lionel LCS but not Lionchief. Can anyone confirm if the app works on an iPad? If so I assume my iOs is just too old.
> 
> Pete


Pete, it does work with the iPad. I checked mine and the iOS version is 12.0.1. Is that what you have?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Its an iPad 3 running 9.3.5. I can't update to a newer version. At least I know the problem but for you smart device fans this is going to be an issue. Having to replace your device every few years to use the latest software.

Pete


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Most smart devices are garbage and aren’t designed to last more than a few years, so they’ll probably be replaced anyhow unfortunately. I know my new iPad isn’t built as my old one.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Norton said:


> Its an iPad 3 running 9.3.5. I can't update to a newer version. At least I know the problem but for you smart device fans this is going to be an issue. Having to replace your device every few years to use the latest software.
> 
> Pete


Yeah, that stinks. After using both, I've decided that dedicated remotes are better than phones/tablets. I'm still bullish on Bluetooth but I want a remote. Probably because 99% of what I do is very basic: speed, volume, smoke, bell, horn. A simple remote like the LC+ is better for that IMO.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

They look nice but I can't justify the price.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

Well I tried the bluetooth legacy engine with the universal remote and it ran just fine. Signal seemed to be good for 25 feet. Only thing is if you run with universal remote and you go to legacy remote it will respond to both.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

TheBigCrabCake said:


> I wonder if it will be possible to retrofit legacy, TMCC and Conventional engines of the past, with today's Bluetooth technology without it costing an arm and a leg. Anyone have a sense of this possibility?
> 
> Emile





beachhead2 said:


> I don't but I'd love to know too. That would be fantastic.


Based on what Howard Hitchcock said on the most recent Notch 6 podcast (at the time of the LCCA meet), the possibility of adding Bluetooth to older models is pretty much zip, nada, nil. I hope this isn't unfair but I get the impression Lionel isn't interested.  Might a third party be? Might depend on how far they need to tap into Lionel's existing technology, which I don't imagine would be an easy matter.

Maybe more to the point were his comments about maintaining the existing Legacy control system or porting it to a new set of controls in an era of increased cost/scarcity of the relevant parts for the remote/base. They are working on it, he said, but no guarantees. That definitely didn't leave me feeling very reassured.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Based on what Howard Hitchcock said on the most recent Notch 6 podcast (at the time of the LCCA meet), the possibility of adding Bluetooth to older models is pretty much zip, nada, nil. I hope this isn't unfair but I get the impression Lionel isn't interested.  Might a third party be? Might depend on how far they need to tap into Lionel's existing technology, which I don't imagine would be an easy matter.
> 
> Maybe more to the point were his comments about maintaining the existing Legacy control system or porting it to a new set of controls in an era of increased cost/scarcity of the relevant parts for the remote/base. They are working on it, he said, but no guarantees. That definitely didn't leave me feeling very reassured.


This looks interesting...

http://www.tinyosshop.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=666


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Volphin said:


> This looks interesting...
> 
> http://www.tinyosshop.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=666


Pair that with a DPDT relay (8 amp contact rating?) and you can create a reversing unit for AC motors on older engines (field winding / brushes connections ala E-unit) using one motor output. The second motor output could be used to control a whistle or smoke. Such relays are avaiable at Digikey for <$10 (and their shipping is reasable on small parts <$4).

One question; what is the start-up state on the outputs?


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

So the legacy with Bluetooth cost quite a bit and you can run them with the lionchief universal remote and the lionchief app but you need to have a legacy setup to use all of the functionality of the locomotive. Is that right?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

That's right


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> So the legacy with Bluetooth cost quite a bit and you can run them with the lionchief universal remote and the lionchief app but you need to have a legacy setup to use all of the functionality of the locomotive. Is that right?


What is a “Legacy setup”? I was under the impression that I just needed the app and a power supply to run the Bluetooth locos.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2018)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> So the legacy with Bluetooth cost quite a bit and you can run them with the lionchief universal remote and the lionchief app but you need to have a legacy setup to use all of the functionality of the locomotive. Is that right?


As I understand it, yes, you only get the basic sounds though the LionChief app may eventually offer more. I have DCS and LionChief Plus. I find that I only use the basic sounds that LC+ offers even though PS3 has so much more available. I use the diesel roar or steam chuff, the horn/whistle and the bell. I don't bother with the rest of the sounds.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Runnikee said:


> What is a “Legacy setup”? I was under the impression that I just needed the app and a power supply to run the Bluetooth locos.


That's correct too. All you need is the app and power supply to operate the engine. It will do everything the app does via Bluetooth. So you can turn the smoke on/off, volume up/down, etc. But in order to use the _Legacy _features, you must have the Legacy system.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I think the basics will be enough for me at this point. Do any of you happen to know which diesels are available with the Bluetooth capabilities? Not really asking for roadnames, but SD70, SD90, etc.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I guess I’m not sure what the Legacy features are. Just more dialogue?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Runnikee said:


> I think the basics will be enough for me at this point. Do any of you happen to know which diesels are available with the Bluetooth capabilities? Not really asking for roadnames, but SD70, SD90, etc.


Not offhand. But you can go to Lionel's website and look at the last couple catalogs. I think the two from this year and also 2017 Vol. 2 are the only catalogs that feature Bluetooth engines. Last year, it was just being introduced so not all of them have it. As of this year, they all do.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Runnikee said:


> I think the basics will be enough for me at this point. Do any of you happen to know which diesels are available with the Bluetooth capabilities? Not really asking for roadnames, but SD70, SD90, etc.


I have a SD40-2 preordered so I know that's available. It's on page 34 of the latest catalog, 2018 Big Book Vol. 2. The next page of that catalog features the C44-9W and the Norfolk Southern red-flame paint scheme.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

So if you are going to be staying basic, I also do the same thing, might as well go lionchief plus with Bluetooth and save some money for more locomotives.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> So if you are going to be staying basic, I also do the same thing, might as well go lionchief plus with Bluetooth and save some money for more locomotives.


I think so. I'm pretty roadname specific so if it's only available in Legacy, I'll still pull the trigger. But the LC+ engines do everything I want.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Are there any differences in details between Lionchief Plus and Legacy?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Runnikee said:


> Are there any differences in details between Lionchief Plus and Legacy?


Essentially, LC+ is just remote control engines. Legacy and the Legacy remote allows you to control Legacy engines and TMCC engines manufactured back into the 1990's. It allows you to do multi-engines lashups, and you can control switches and accessories on your layout. All from the Legacy remote.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Runnikee said:


> Are there any differences in details between Lionchief Plus and Legacy?


Sorry, are you talking about the details of the models? Yes, I think so. As far as I know, the LC+ SD60M was the only LC+ engines (so far) that they offered in scale. It was the exact same model as the Legacy version but only with LC+ guts.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

Interesting. I learn something new from you guys on here every day.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Runnikee said:


> What is a “Legacy setup”? I was under the impression that I just needed the app and a power supply to run the Bluetooth locos.


That's correct, you can do the common functions with just the BT or the LC Universal remote. For all the Legacy features, you need the full Legacy system.

Most of the common stuff you'd use is available with any of the environments.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I'm just kind of lost on what the "Legacy stuff" is that I'd be missing out on.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The features that you wouldn't be able to access are locomotive dependent, some of the new locomotives use key sequences that aren't available on the alternative control methods.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

My Legacy reading F3 with BT doesn't have much volume for engine rev up sound as compared to on Legacy.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

I'm feeling like what I'd be missing out on are things I probably wouldn't use that often anyhow.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

Runnikee said:


> I'm feeling like what I'd be missing out on are things I probably wouldn't use that often anyhow.


do you have a train club near you who could demonstrate all the legacy features?


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2018)

Runnikee said:


> I'm feeling like what I'd be missing out on are things I probably wouldn't use that often anyhow.


I personally find all the advanced sounds (MTH PS3) to be annoying and never use them but others may disagree. I don't even like the crew talk. When I'm watching a real train all I hear is the diesel engine and the horn. I can't hear the engineer talking to the dispatcher on the radio or even hear him talking to the conductor so I don't see the point of playing these kinds of sounds.

If you decide that you would like to access all the Legacy features you can always add a Legacy system in the future but you can run your engine and enjoy the basic sounds right now without spending the extra money.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

bigdodgetrain said:


> do you have a train club near you who could demonstrate all the legacy features?


Not one that I know of. Unfortunately, everything I see and hear comes from YouTube.


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

That’s true, Country Joe.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

I've been using the Monocacy Trains Bluetooth module for about a year now, it works pretty well...….

All my stuff is old prewar/postwar. With a couple of 70s/80s DC motored conventional locos.

At 40 bucks a crack, it's pretty cheap to convert, plus, it works on AC or DC....

Haven't seen any range issues with the one 80s DC motored loco I converted, also converted it to battery power, so, no more contact problems when crawling slowly over switches. 

Basically, I am running Dead Rail, with no power to the track at all. Good way to eliminate ALL track wiring issues, as, there is no wiring at all...…. It's pretty cool....


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## Runnikee (Oct 17, 2018)

That’s pretty awesome. Are the conversions complicated?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Conversion is dead simple, two wires to the track (one to the chassis, the other to the centre pickup), two wires to the motor.

If going battery power, the two wires go to the battery, either in the tender if it fits, or, in a car behind the tender...…

Battery would fit inside many diesels I think.....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BWA said:


> I've been using the Monocacy Trains Bluetooth module for about a year now, it works pretty well...…..


I only see very small modules for HO and N gauge.









I can't imagine this pulling much for O-gauge. I see this on their home page...

_Modules available for popular gauges including *O*, S-scale, and HO . There is no limit on the number of locomotives that can be operating using the Monocacy Trains system._

The problem is, I don't see anything but the one HO/N module for sale.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

That's the one I'm using John, seems to work fine.....

I'll be getting a few more in the next few weeks, and, will check them further in different Locos...…..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What's the one you're using? What is it going into? What kind of load is it pulling?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

The one you showed, I think it's the only one they make so far.....

This guy right here...…...









It's on my re motored 8142, easily pulls 20 cars


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm guessing it's working pretty hard to pull much of a load.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

BWA, just be clear you have only used this on your DC O gauge engines, not on your pre or post war engines. 

Pete


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Tested it last night on a postwar Alco, running full AC, and, it worked just fine...…

1: Disconnected the Hot wire from the centre pickups at Reversing unit, and, hooked that up to the Red wire on the board.

2: Connect the Black wire from the board to Chassis (ground)..

3: Disconnected both wires going to the Brush Terminals...

4: Connected one Brush Terminal to the Motor Coil Tap...

5: Connected Grey wire from board to Motor Coil Tap....

6: Connected the Orange wire from board to other Brush Terminal.....

Hey presto, it works...…

But, no reverse, but, that's an easy fix, just wire in one of Lionel's handy dandy little 00-0103-00 AC electronic reverse units. I think that will work, hafta test it out...


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

The Monocacy BT Module Marketing/Info *LINK*.

DC only. But it's "easy" to add components to wire a traditional AC loco. In theory, I would add:

A bridge rectifier and substantial Cap (50V, 3000 uf) in front of a buck regulator module ($1 from Aliexpress) set to 6 V to power the BT module. Then use the DC motor output to control two relays: a DPDT 6-8 A, 6 V dual coil latching relay ($7 @ Digikey) to control the AC motor direction (replaces E unit) and a simple SPST NO relay (~1$ at Digikey) to control on / off power to the DPDT relay's contacts and ultimately control the motor on /off. Plus a small balck PCB board to mount the relay. These additional components would add some ~$15 to the cost.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I amazed that little module can put out enough current to run a Post War AC motor. If it can do that it should handle any modern DC engine including twin motored diesels.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll believe it when I see it running a PW AC motor without external components.  That's also assuming you run it with a decent sized consist as well...


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