# 4684 American Flyer Train Set



## Ed Gonzalez

I found a train set recently in a Florida. It is an American Flyer S-gauge train with track and transformer. I am just getting started in collecting and really like prewar trains. Can you tell me what is a fair value for a set in this condition. I am told that the train runs well. Can anyone help?


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## mopac

I have no idea of the value. But, I do know that is not S scale, it is O scale. I would bet the track you got is 3 rail track.
American Flyer did not make prewar S scale trains. They started S scale in 1946. You have a neat set there. Good luck
with it.


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## Ed Gonzalez

mopac said:


> I have no idea of the value. But, I do know that is not S scale, it is O scale. I would bet the track you got is 3 rail track.
> American Flyer did not make prewar S scale trains. They started S scale in 1946. You have a neat set there. Good luck
> with it.


You correct it is three rail track.


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## mopac

For value, I always refer people to ebay. They are the largest market place in the world. Look in completed auctions.
I did a quick search and did find a couple 4684. There were 2 but they were restored (repainted). Seems your train is from around 1927. Your train seems to be complete and
in good condition except the paint. I doubt the rust will clean off it. Unrestored would be better than restored.

And welcome to the train forum.


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## AmFlyer

That engine and passenger car set is not O gauge, it is wide gauge. The set is possibly a 1927 production based on passenger car details. If you want a ballpark guess for the three pieces given the condition I would guess $250 to $300. There are some prewar AF collectors here that will know a lot more about these than I do.


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## AmFlyer

Mopac mentioned an important point, it is hard to find complete originals, many have been "restored." This one is an untouched original and all the bits and pieces appear to be present.


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## Ed Gonzalez

mopac said:


> For value, I always refer people to ebay. They are the largest market place in the world. Look in completed auctions.
> I did a quick search and did find a couple 4684. There were 2 but they were restored (repainted). Seems your train is from around 1927. Your train seems to be complete and
> in good condition except the paint. I doubt the rust will clean off it. Unrestored would be better than restored.
> 
> And welcome to the train forum.


Thank you for the info


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## Ed Gonzalez

AmFlyer said:


> Mopac mentioned an important point, it is hard to find complete originals, many have been "restored." This one is an untouched original and all the bits and pieces appear to be present.


Thanks


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## Streamliner

The train cars are lithographed, a process that actually printed the details on the sheet metal. It is virtually impossible to restore, which makes prime condition lithographed cars highly sought after. You can easily paint the roofs, but the sides with that heavy rust are, in my honest opinion, way beyond help.


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## Ed Gonzalez

Streamliner said:


> The train cars are lithographed, a process that actually printed the details on the sheet metal. It is virtually impossible to restore, which makes prime condition lithographed cars highly sought after. You can easily paint the roofs, but the sides with that heavy rust are, in my honest opinion, way beyond help.


Under those circumstances what is a fair price for the set including transformer and tracks?


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## Streamliner

If the loco wheels are in good condition and they are not grown or warped, if the motor is complete and can be made to run fairly easily and all the loco trim pieces are there, I would take a guess and say about $100.00 for the loco and maybe $25.00 each for the cars, but if these are going to be sold online, shipping will be an issue. These number are strictly guesstimates on my part. YMMV.


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## Ed Gonzalez

Ed Gonzalez said:


> Under those circumstances what is a fair price for the set including transformer and tracks?


I haven’t bought the set but am still considering it and don’t want to pay way over market value. I am a newcomer just feeling my way and my emotional attraction to these trains tends to override my good judgement.


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## Streamliner

I do not wish to offend anyone, but this set has been ridden hard and put away wet. Unless you can get this for an absolute bargain price, like around $100.00, I would pass and look for a better one. These old trains are becoming more and more available for cheaper prices, as the old guys who collected them, go on to that big roundhouse in the sky. The virus has bumped prices up a bit this last year, as so many folks had nothing to do, but I see prices going the other way on this type of stuff, as soon as we get back to normal, if that ever happens. Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Ed Gonzalez

Streamliner said:


> I do not wish to offend anyone, but this set has been ridden hard and put away wet. Unless you can get this for an absolute bargain price, like around $100.00, I would pass and look for a better one. These old trains are becoming more and more available for cheaper prices, as the old guys who collected them, go on to that big roundhouse in the sky. The virus has bumped prices up a bit this last year, as so many folks had nothing to do, but I see prices going the other way on this type of stuff, as soon as we get back to normal, if that ever happens. Of course, this is just my opinion.


I appreciate the advice. I don’t know much about the subject and a trying to learn as I go with as few bump and bruises as possible


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## Streamliner

Ed Gonzalez said:


> I appreciate the advice. I don’t know much about the subject and a trying to learn as I go with as few bump and bruises as possible


I started to seriously collect pre-war trains around 1974. I quickly found that there were way more trains for sale than I could ever buy, so I decided to try and buy only nice, original examples. This really limited me, as really nice pieces were few and far between. At any rate, unless you really have a passion for taking on major restoration projects—and many folks do really enjoy that—try and find nicer pieces. They don’t need to be like brand new, but rusty lithographed pieces will pretty much never look nice again, so I would suggest that you pass those buy. Personally, I much prefer having one really nice piece than a bunch of junkers. Quality over quantity, but that’s just me. Good luck to you, however you decide to start off in this wonderful hobby. A photo of one of my great finds:


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## flyernut

The tag on the engine says "$795".Absolutely crazy price, I think the guy is fishing, hoping to find a buyer who has no idea of what it's worth, no offence intended.I have my Dad's standard gauge Lionel set from 1927, all the original boxes are included, engine, passenger cars,track, locks, and rheostat.. It's in beautiful condition and runs like a scalded dog. Value is somewhere around $300 -$450.


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## mopac

flyernut, something that old and in great condition should bring more money. But they don't.


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## Ed Gonzalez

Streamliner said:


> I started to seriously collect pre-war trains around 1974. I quickly found that there were way more trains for sale than I could ever buy, so I decided to try and buy only nice, original examples. This really limited me, as really nice pieces were few and far between. At any rate, unless you really have a passion for taking on major restoration projects—and many folks do really enjoy that—try and find nicer pieces. They don’t need to be like brand new, but rusty lithographed pieces will pretty much never look nice again, so I would suggest that you pass those buy. Personally, I much prefer having one really nice piece than a bunch of junkers. Quality over quantity, but that’s just me. Good luck to you, however you decide to start off in this wonderful hobby. A photo of one of my great finds:
> 
> View attachment 556388


Thanks I have to be patience and wait until something better comes along. It is difficult because all these prewar trains are so cool when you see them your first impulse is I have to have that one.


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## Ed Gonzalez

flyernut said:


> The tag on the engine says "$795".Absolutely crazy price, I think the guy is fishing, hoping to find a buyer who has no idea of what it's worth, no offence intended.I have my Dad's standard gauge Lionel set from 1927, all the original boxes are included, engine, passenger cars,track, locks, and rheostat.. It's in beautiful condition and runs like a scalded dog. Value is somewhere around $300 -$450.


Thanks that is why I joined the forum to have people who know about the hobby that can talk me off the ledge before jumping and buying something I willl regret


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## mopac

Ed, that thinking is fine if the item can be bought at a good price. I understand the want factor.
Trains in general are not a good investment. Not sure why. The best you can do is buy stuff
that some day you can get close to your money back. Thats what I try to do. If it is not close to a
bargain I pass. Sometimes the want factor gets in the way. Things can change in the future but
probably won't. Things have changed for my son. 10 to 15 years ago he made some great investments
that he could not imagine at the time. He started buying old baseball cards. Really old but nice.
There are 2 professional grading services that card collectors use. With a certain grade you know what
you are getting. He bought medium grade cards. He was paying around 600.00 each for the stars.
I was a little worried he was buying too much. These are all from 1900 to 1950 year cards. 600.00 is about
the most he paid for them each. Some only 200.00. Their value has blossomed. He bought a
Jackie Robinson rookie card for 600.00. 2 of them sold on ebay this week for over 28,000.00 each.
Same grade as his. And he has around 50 of these old cards. He did not buy these for investment, he bought
them on the want factor. All of his cards will bring over 1000.00 each. He got lucky. He has over 10
Mickey Mantle cards. But sadly not a rookie card. That would be in the millions, yep millions. He has 4 real Babe Ruth cards. Nice collection.


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## Streamliner

As someone who was a collector, then made the hobby my career and it is now my hobby again, the reason that _MOST old toy _trains are no longer a good investment is fairly simple: They made millions of them and they are mostly collected by guys who lusted after them as kids. With the pre-war trains, all those guys are really on in years now. Collections are hitting the market every day, so it is a buyer’s market. Only the absolute highest grade examples, of harder to find models, in nice, clean, original boxes are still commanding top dollar and are items I would call decent investments. Just my opinion. Another photo of one of my great finds:


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## Ed Gonzalez

mopac said:


> Ed, that thinking is fine if the item can be bought at a good price. I understand the want factor.
> Trains in general are not a good investment. Not sure why. The best you can do is buy stuff
> that some day you can get close to your money back. Thats what I try to do. If it is not close to a
> bargain I pass. Sometimes the want factor gets in the way. Things can change in the future but
> probably won't. Things have changed for my son. 10 to 15 years ago he made some great investments
> that he could not imagine at the time. He started buying old baseball cards. Really old but nice.
> There are 2 professional grading services that card collectors use. With a certain grade you know what
> you are getting. He bought medium grade cards. He was paying around 600.00 each for the stars.
> I was a little worried he was buying too much. These are all from 1900 to 1950 year cards. 600.00 is about
> the most he paid for them each. Some only 200.00. Their value has blossomed. He bought a
> Jackie Robinson rookie card for 600.00. 2 of them sold on ebay this week for over 28,000.00 each.
> Same grade as his. And he has around 50 of these old cards. He did not buy these for investment, he bought
> them on the want factor. All of his cards will bring over 1000.00 each. He got lucky. He has over 10
> Mickey Mantle cards. But sadly not a rookie card. That would be in the millions, yep millions. He has 4 real Babe Ruth cards. Nice collection.


Understood I am getting into this just to collect and satisfy an itch I have had since childhood that I never satisfied. I would also like to pass on to grandchildren when I am gone so that maybe they will have an appreciation for craftsmanship of things that were made to last. Not into it as investment.


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## Streamliner

Ed Gonzalez said:


> Understood I am getting into this just to collect and satisfy an itch I have had since childhood that I never satisfied. I would also like to pass on to grandchildren when I am gone so that maybe they will have an appreciation for craftsmanship of things that were made to last. Not into it as investment.


Perfect. Might I ask, do you have ANY items so far? I only ask, because you might wish to decide if you want to go with Standard Gauge (called “Wide Gauge by American Flyer) or “O” Gauge. Standard is nice, but is is BIG. “O” is smaller, but still good size and generally, more available.


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## AmFlyer

There are many collectors who acquired an eclectic mix of gauges, manufacturers and era's. I was not one of those, I stuck with postwar and modern S gauge. I have been fortunate to visit the homes of some of these collectors over the years. The one thing collectors of diverse train items had in common was they all bought the best examples of each item they could find. You can stay with one gauge or collect multiple gauges. Given the stated objective of leaving something behind for grandchildren makes quality and appearance of the trains of high importance.
It is relatively easy to find quality items when collecting postwar trains. Prewar, especially AF wide gauge, is much harder and may take years to find good items that also run. 
Streamliner has likely bought and sold more trains in a year than all the rest of us combined have in a lifetime, we are fortunate to have his expertise here.
Back to the wide gauge set first posted. I find that set of interest because it appears to have all its original parts and it has the 1927 only brass journal boxes and air tanks. Unfortunately it is at best a C5 condition. Were I a collector of AF wide gauge I would likely try to buy this set because it may be years until a 1927 version in C7 or better condition was available to buy. I would not buy it were I just trying to acquire some items for the future. It seems to me there is a lot more Lionel standard gauge available in C7 condition than there is AF wide gauge. As far as the price of that set, I think Allen's $100 is a wholesale number, a retail collector looking for that set would probably be willing to pay more, but not a lot more even in that condition.


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## Ed Gonzalez

Streamliner said:


> Perfect. Might I ask, do you have ANY items so far? I only ask, because you might wish to decide if you want to go with Standard Gauge (called “Wide Gauge by American Flyer) or “O” Gauge. Standard is nice, but is is BIG. “O” is smaller, but still good size and generally, more available.


No not yet been looking at O Gauge on EBay


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## AFGP9

Mopac, I have a friend who has been into sports trading cards of all types most of his life. He has a collection so big that half of his double car garage is taken up by his storage cases. Yes the garage is heated and humidity controlled. He has several Michael Jordon rookie NBA cards. He is into the buying, trading and selling cards big time. Large dollars. So big that a few years back he sold 4 of his Jordon rookie cards for enough money to buy himself a new Chevy Suburban. He still has 10 of those cards. Besides being Michel Jordan rookie cards, these are some kind of special series cards printed back then. I have no idea what "special series" means. I've never met a guy who can spot a future super star player of any sport the way he can and then the card buying begins. or should I say investing. Kind of like playing the stock market. He buys and holds futures. He watches a lot of sports games not to mention college basketball and football to see which players are up and coming potential super star pros. He has way more time than I do. But then he is also a professional sports bettor so it is kind of his business to know the players. 
I'll stick to Gilbert trains. 

Kenny


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## AFGP9

I have always admired the Gilbert Wide Gauge and Lionel Standard gauge trains. I never got into buying simply because I would want at least C8 or better. Way beyond my means. When I first discovered them I was well into my racing career and spending enough money that today I could have had a nice collection of those trains. Can't have both. Besides, those trains didn't go fast enough by comparison. lol 

Kenny


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## mopac

If you know what you are doing there is big bucks in cards. I have one bedroom closet full of cards. I probably could not
get 200.00 for all of them. Big time loser for me.

Who would think a piece of cardboard can be worth much more than a beautiful diecast old locomotive. Put one of those pieces of cardboard on a track and see how it runs. LOL.


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## AFGP9

You are so right mopac. Bottom line, I would rather have trains than cardboard. As I always say, I am not a carboard collector, cards or train boxes. 
Yes you do need to know what you are doing in the card collecting business. I once had a nice baseball and Green Bay Packers card collection. They made great sounds stuck in my bicycle spokes. I often wonder today how many of those cards are now valuable. Remember, that would have been in the early to middle 50's. 

Kenny


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## alaft61ri

Would these be wide gauge


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## mopac

I think O gauge but I do not know. Tom will have to tell you. You will love this, American Flyer also
had "Standard Gauge".


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## flyernut

I have at least 20-25 magazines, tuff stuff,etc," with all sorts of cards in them, mostly un-cut sheets. I wonder if they have any worth??


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## AmFlyer

Al, the 401 is an O gauge engine, made in 1939 and 1940 as a carryover of the old AF line of trains purchased from W. O. Coleman. All AF wide gauge engines had four digit numbers.


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## mopac

Loren, I have seen the cards in the magazines. I doubt they have alot of value.
But I do not know for sure. You can look them up on ebay just like trains.
Brand, year and who the player is.

Kenny, I also did the cards in the spokes of my bike in the 1950s.
I ask kids about that today and give me a funny look. So I guess
they do not do it today. I thought it was cool.


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## AmFlyer

I put cards in the bicycle spokes a few times but never my baseball cards, I used my parents older playing cards. Those baseball cards are long gone but I doubt they would be worth a new suburban, likely not even a used Vega. The only childhood toys still with me are the trains and the AMT 1/24th scale race car set.


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## alaft61ri

Ok thankyou for the info on the wide gage.
Al


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## AFGP9

AmFlyer said:


> I put cards in the bicycle spokes a few times but never my baseball cards, I used my parents older playing cards. Those baseball cards are long gone but I doubt they would be worth a new suburban, likely not even a used Vega. The only childhood toys still with me are the trains and the AMT 1/24th scale race car set.


I was smart enough to not put any of my favorite player's cards in my bicycle spokes. Just "everyday players". Then again how many of those cards were of players who went on to become superstars and I wasn't smart enough to know it?
I still have a 1/64th Arora race set after all these years. 

Kenny


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