# Harbor Water Scene Help



## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I have a large rectangular 39x84-inch harbor scene on my layout. I am looking for suggestions on how to model the water. 

I am thinking if two methods. 

A large continuous sheet of 1/4 or 3/8 inch plexiglass painted underneath and then ripple effects applied on top. Rippling would simulate wind blown patterns of calm water in a closed harbor (only one side open with a two-track swing bridge at the layout edge).

Or

Poured colored resin with ripple effects applied on top.

The positive I like by using plexiglass is that I can remove it if I need to access anywhere around the scene. Not likely but adds flexibility if needed. May have to attach the plexiglass to 1/4-inch plywood.

Can anyone lease share their experiences with a large harbor scene?

Thanks.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

No personal experience, but the method of using toilet paper to me looks superior to anything else .

https://youtu.be/2TwpB7sVMn8


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I used the TP method posted in the above video to model Schitz Creek and it came out great. Very simple.


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## Stephenreef1! (Jan 9, 2018)

*Mod Podge*

Mod Podge - Dave Frary (great modeler popular in the 80's and 90's) has some great videos on YouTube on the method. I've used it and it's great


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I use acrylic gloss medium. Pour a layer about 1/8" thick on a painted, waterproof surface and let dry. Then use acrylic gloss gel to add the ripples.

The TP method looks good too, although I've never tried it. Check out posts by user "martin t". He posted a great how-to video here a while back.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm pretty sure the "Martin T" video is the one linked in post #2. I did it and it works.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Painted water and Modge podge*




























bonez said:


> I have a large rectangular 39x84-inch harbor scene on my layout. I am looking for suggestions on how to model the water.
> 
> I am thinking if two methods.
> 
> ...


bonez;

Either of those methods might work. I used a simple method to make the water in these photos. The base is plain wood, painted with a mixture of blue and green model paint. The bow wave and wake ripples are made with Elmer's wood filler, but plaster, or Drywall mud would work too. After painting the wakes with white model paint, I applied a coat of Modge Podge to make the water shiny. Modge Podge is a craft product sold at Walmart.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Gramps said:


> I'm pretty sure the "Martin T" video is the one linked in post #2. I did it and it works.


Could be. I can't see videos on my work computer, so I can't check.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Stephenreef1! said:


> Mod Podge - Dave Frary (great modeler popular in the 80's and 90's) has some great videos on YouTube on the method. I've used it and it's great


I'm not familiar with Frary's videos but Mod Podge is also used in the TP method.


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks for all the tips.

I am going to make 1-sqft samples of a few methods. 

Method 1 - I found the YouTube video of Frary using Mod Podge over acrylic painted hardboard.

Method 2 - I also read the water section in the Waterfront Terminals and Operations book by Bernard Kempinski where he paints black/blue/green base colors top coated with 15-layers of gloss polyurethane.

These two methods yielded the calm surface look I want for an enclosed harbor. I will add two moored waterline boats in the scene.

I am also thinking of making the water area on a stiff board so I can carefully remove it if I need to get access to the surrounding areas. It will also make it easier to create on my workbench rather than on the platform.

I'll post results when I make progress.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

While 15 layers of polyurethane would definitely make a nice, smooth surface, is it really worth it to invest that much time and effort when there are much simpler methods available? Only you can say whether it's right for you, but you wouldn't find me doing it.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Another idea for a large water scene.

https://www.mckenziesp.com/AW10032-P14098.aspx


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

CTValleyRR - what do you use for your recommended acrylic gloss medium?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Acrylic gloss mediumn is an artists product to mix with artists acrylics. Michaels / AC Moore / Dick Blicks all carry it. So does Amazon. Liquitex is a widely available brand.

Maybe I'm a snob, but I trust the artists product more than the "craft" product (Mod Podge).


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks. I can get a gallon of Liquitex Gloss Medium for $60. I'll try a smaller sample before I select the final product.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

bonez said:


> Thanks. I can get a gallon of Liquitex Gloss Medium for $60. I'll try a smaller sample before I select the final product.


A gallon? Wow. I doubt I've even used a quart in the 15 years since I returned to the hobby. You only need a thin layer -- it's the paint that provides the illusion of depth.


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

For my area I would need about a gallon to yield a 0.08-inch layer of clear. So a little over a 1/16-inch thickness. 

I'll make some samples to get the look I desire that then determines thickness.


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

*Bubbles*

Mod Podge and acrylic medium users - how do you apply a thick coat without bubbles?

I am using a mop brush and it leaves bubbles. I can remove some of them with a heat gun when wet but is there a better way during the application process?


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## flyerrich (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't see anyone mention Woodland Scenics "Realistic Water".
Has anyone used it and how does it compare to the ModgePoge. Do you get any yellowing over time with any of these products?


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I would use realistic water or other resin type materials for smaller areas. WS Realistic Water would cost a lot for may large harbor. Hence, my desire to make Mod Podge or shellac work.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

flyerrich said:


> I don't see anyone mention Woodland Scenics "Realistic Water".
> Has anyone used it and how does it compare to the ModgePoge. Do you get any yellowing over time with any of these products?


I used it. It went down ok, but it was too viscous and had to be teased into areas around rocks, deadfall, etc.

Other problems: it never truly hardens. Objects left on it make an indentation, and dust sticks to it, making it hard to clean. Also it stinks to high heaven, making your train room unbearable for hours afterwaard

Mine is about 8 years old now, and shows no signs of yellowing.

I much prefer gloss medium. I find it much easier to work with, faster drying, no odors and easier to tint if desired (it's designed for diluting paint, after all). Gloss medium is permanent: it neither loses its shine nor changes colors.

Don't know about Mod Podge.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

bonez said:


> Mod Podge and acrylic medium users - how do you apply a thick coat without bubbles?
> 
> I am using a mop brush and it leaves bubbles. I can remove some of them with a heat gun when wet but is there a better way during the application process?


Don't brush it on. Pour it and let it self-level. I'm not sure what a mop brush is, but anything with thick bristles or strands is going to make bubbles. If you must brush it, use a very soft synthetic fiber or red sable brush.

After pouring, a craft stick or toothpick can be used if it needs a little coaxing into tight spots. You will still get a few small bubbles, even if you pour carefully. Let these rise to the surface for about 5 minutes. Most of them will pop on their own. Pop the rest with a toothpick.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

bonez said:


> Mod Podge and acrylic medium users - how do you apply a thick coat without bubbles?
> 
> I am using a mop brush and it leaves bubbles. I can remove some of them with a heat gun when wet but is there a better way during the application process?


I never used acrylic medium but I never had bubbles with Modpodge and I used a brush with circular bristles as opposed to a flat brush.


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Gramps - I think we are using the same type brush. It is circular with the bristles fanned out from the base. What is your technique?


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

bonez said:


> Gramps - I think we are using the same type brush. It is circular with the bristles fanned out from the base. What is your technique?


I used the same technique as the TP video in post #2. No problems.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*No bubles*



bonez said:


> Mod Podge and acrylic medium users - how do you apply a thick coat without bubbles?
> 
> I am using a mop brush and it leaves bubbles. I can remove some of them with a heat gun when wet but is there a better way during the application process?


bonez:

You don't need a thick layer. Modge Podge can, and should, be brushed on in thin layers. I used an ordinary flat, house painting trim type brush. If you look at the tugboat/rail barge photos in my earlier response the water is just blue and green model paint covered with a thin layer of Modge Podge. (The "wakes" of the boats, and the "waves" in the "ocean" photo below, are made with wood filler before painting. Modge Podge works like clear lacquer or shellac. It just puts a clear, reflective, very shiny, very thin, coating over the painted surface.

May I ask why you want a thick layer? Do you want to show rocks, logs, trash, etc. lying on the bottom of a river? If so, you can half-bury them in the "bottom mud" material (plaster, wood filler, etc.) paint the water color over that and then use a thin layer of Modge Podge to put a reflective shine on top. The river, and ocean, scenes in the photos below were made this way, with wood filler, and Modge Podge. If you look carefully at the river photo, you can see logs and tree branches on the bottom. 

An alternate method is to use clear casting resin. It can be applied in somewhat thicker layers (approx 1/16"-1/8" ea.) The layers can be gradually built up until the desired bottom debris is literally submerged in the resin. Bubbles can appear when using resin. Sometimes waving an electric heat gun, hair dryer, or propane torch above, (never on!), the surface of the resin can draw the bubbles up and out of the resin. Heat can also create ripples in the surface of the resin "water" if desired. I have not used resin, only read about it. The closest I have come is using "Liquid Plastic" a varnish substitute, in several layers; each layer allowed to dry overnight. This works well, but is somewhat expensive and very smelly!

Once I discovered Modge Podge, I have used it exclusively ever since. It is inexpensive, easy to use, doesn't stink up the place. and gives excellent results.

Good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*"Realistic water" unreal pricing!*



flyerrich said:


> I don't see anyone mention Woodland Scenics "Realistic Water".
> Has anyone used it and how does it compare to the ModgePoge. Do you get any yellowing over time with any of these products?


 flyerrrich;

I can't answer your "does it yellow" question because I've not used the product. Woodland Senics generally makes good quality products and then sells them at very high prices. Just about any of the other, quite good, methods discussed in this thread would be immensely cheaper, per unit, than Woodland Senics "Realistic Water." This is especially true of Mod Podge, which is available at Walmart for about three bucks a jar. One jar has made all the water on my whole layout. 
There have been other threads here where the modeler used "Realistic Water" and got good results. In those cases nothing bigger than a small pond, or stream, was modeled. The OP in this thread wants to model a good-sized chunk of harbor. Doing that with "Realistic Water" would cost a small fortune.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

All the water in these photos was made with Mod Podge.


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

My thought on thickness was based on the Frary video where he stated he used at least ten coats. And the scene he did shows a very nice surface texture and depth that I desire for my harbor scene.

My harbor is a three sided rectangular area (39x72-inch) that has a crane dock on one long side and structures on the other two sides. Then it goes off the platform under a double track swing bridge. I have a Sylvan Tramp Steamer and a Walthers Tug Boat that I will place in the harbor. I think it will look awesome if I do it correctly. 

I think I am mistakenly applying the Mod Podge in coats too thick. 

So after reading these comments I am now starting new samples that I will use thinner coats. I also built up some toilet paper and tissue paper samples to evaluate that method. 

All the the comments are greatly appreciated.

Lastly, I will have another large pond scene that I will want depth. Wifey wants me to model a mafia hit job (I am Sicilian and have mafia in my family so they will get a kick from this) where a body is submerged and a police car is on the scene. So this scene will use resin to get a reasonable depth(probably 0.5-0.75 inch).


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Used a modified TP technique. I really like the way it came out.

Many thanks for the help.

BTW you can see overall progress on my Big Project Status thread.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

:thumbsup:It looks great, glad it worked out. I was very happy with the TP method.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

Here's my two cents: I used Clear Gorilla Glue. Unlike resins, it doesn't run all over the place and doesn't bubble (butane torch suggested to pop the bubbles, good luck with that). Ounce for ounce, it is about the same price as a bottle of WS resin, which I've used many times, and found harder to control. 

The Clear Gorilla Glue, by contrast, set up faster than the WS resin, and rippled over the surface of the river bed, creating an active water flow. That was a happy accident; I anticipated it drying flat as a mill pond. 

Nikola put me on to Modge Podge, which was used for gluing the dirt cover. I really like working with MP as it doesn't attack Styrofoam and allowed ample time to work the textures I was looking for. 

A question regarding Modge Podge, it seems to come in about half a dozen varieties. Not knowing which to use, I grabbed the most generic one, and it works superbly for the matte. What do the other variations of Modge Podge do?


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

bonez said:


> Used a modified TP technique. I really like the way it came out.
> 
> Many thanks for the help.
> 
> BTW you can see overall progress on my Big Project Status thread.


That is the most realistic 'chop' I've ever seen.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Chops said:


> View attachment 484148
> 
> 
> Here's my two cents: I used Clear Gorilla Glue. Unlike resins, it doesn't run all over the place and doesn't bubble (butane torch suggested to pop the bubbles, good luck with that). Ounce for ounce, it is about the same price as a bottle of WS resin, which I've used many times, and found harder to control.
> ...


I only have experience with white Gorilla Glue. It expands like cray cray and turns bubbly white. I have no experience with the clear; does it just sit there without expanding?


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks for the complements. 

I must have made twenty samples using different techniques before I committed the scene. Fortunately the final application was the best. 

I too like the chop pattern. I really worked the paint brush into the softened TP to get that look. It was a race against time to ensure it was consistent over the large area before the glue dried and stiffened.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

bonez, wonderful layout, really liking that harbor scene. Is that swing bridge a kit or did you build it. I need a swing bridge for my harbor scene.
Thanks
Joe


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

Swing bridge is a Walthers kit. So are the girder spans that connect to the abutments. The abutments are also from Walthers.

All integrated quite well for the scene.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2019)

I too have been looking at many ways of creating water. Lots of pics and vids. Saw the Charmin method from start to finish on YouTube last week. Consisted of shoreline and a small harbour. Very realistic. Yours looks fantastic! I must check out your thread to see more of your layout. looks great.

Regards,

Gary.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

*Clear Gorilla Glue*

No, unlike the traditional GG, CLEAR Gorilla Glue does not foam or expand. I don't have any use for the traditional GG. 

In this murky photo, the sparkles of light appear to look like bubbles, but they are not, just little crests that sparkle in the light. 

It comes out clear and does not foam. It does set up pretty fast on contact with air, like ten minutes or so, requiring one to work quickly. 

Unlike resins, it doesn't dribble so badly. It was thought, initially, it would be necessary to dam the river at the layout edges, but it holds its place rather nicely and does not dissolve Styrofoam. 

Costs about $10 for a bottle, which is roughly half of many resin products. 

It will adhere in three dimensions to surface contours, so if you want a mill pond surface, you might prefer resin, or make sure that your surface contour is meticulously flat. For myself, I was happy to have a rippled surface, which the Rio Grande does after a good rain.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks bonez, for the reply.


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