# layout begins, layout ideas



## joed2323

ok guys i finally have pictures up...

layout idea i like 
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3383-1329010692947.jpg

overview of my layout, plus homemade cardboard track templates to get a idea of what i sort of like

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2934-1329010807038.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3394-1329010783736.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-7974-1329010757719.jpg
wye would feed the yard

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-1896-1329010771501.jpg

westsection where yard goes
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3521-1328978039370.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3538-1328978088870.jpg
south end of yard

ok guys let me know what is bad, what is ugly, what just wont work!

Yes some curves on the drawing look tight, but i have them mapped out as nothing smaller then 22 radius, mostly 24-30 radius is what i like and want for curves, but obviously some wont be that big.

Thanks guys

btw im getting backdrop done this week before i move on


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## Xnats

I really like it :thumbsup: It's got a healthy yard, a nice long mainline and there is plenty of room for scenery. How do engines get into the engine shed, back in, your running clockwise mostly? Just asking to make your I followed everything correct.


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## joed2323

wow im surprised you like it.

Which picture do you like the hand drawing or the pictures of my layout with my the cardboard cutouts on top?

On the hand drawing the mainline track only goes around the east section once, my cardboard templates i made, i have it going around the layout once like around room style, plus theres a oval on the east section also.

Is the oval inside the outer loop on east section too much, it also has a wye to turn locos/cars around, good or bad? was wondering if i did this if i would have enuf room for structures, etc?

rip it apart guys, this is what i want, i need to know, hey (joe) your putting too much track on your design with cardboard templates or you should use the idea with the hand drawing, less track is better... 

Dont be afraid to be bashful, this is how i learn and become a better modeler ps: you can be nice if you want to


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## Big Ed

You want us to rip up your plans?
It doesn't look bad to me.

What is going in all the empty spot in the middle, a town?
Maybe add a siding going in there?
The one side looks close to the edge?

Most use cork for a roadbed.
The bridge won't work in cardboard.

Clean up the floor before you take more pictures!

What is all the gray goop on the foam board?
( I never used foam yet.)


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## joed2323

yes i will be using road bed since i have a bunch of it already...

yes the track looks close to the edge, did that so i get get 28-30 radius curves, that can be fixed so track isnt on edge.

the big empty spot in middle, i was thinking maybe a town with industries. or whatever works, yes i want siding going in feeding town/industry

the gray poop, is just caulk i used to to seal up, make it flush between foam board ends, no big deal, that will either be carved down for land, it will be painted over with brown paint, before road bed/track goes down.

the cardboard over the gap, a bridge is going there, im making hinged lift up section, it will hinge up on the west section....

Out of the crappy hand drawing i have made up, which do you guys like more that one or the cardboard track templates with the wye, thats on the top of layout now???? even if you dont like both let me know please


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## Big Ed

I will go with the cardboard.

With another siding (or 2) into the town area for industry or Passenger station. What ever you are planning for the big empty spot.

OK, I never did a layout with foam yet.
Taking notes.
Is that special calk for foam board?


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## joed2323

Im not running passenger cars, so no need for a station.

Also, everything you see on my layout, wood/foam/paint/caulk anything and everything was stuff i had around my house/garage. Everything was pretty much free, i didnt spend any money on construction of the layout bench work or backdrop

The gray caulk you see is called sikaflex. its really good caulk it expands and contracts, it stays flexible after it cures. This was extra stuff i was able to have from my work. it pays when your the shop foreman of a trucking company. We use the sikaflex for caulking trailers, etc.

I used foam because it gives me wiggle room,1 1/2 to carve down or to make it not completely flat. 

Yes i could use help planning the town/industry area, where the sidings should go. need some pointers for this area, im kinda stumped on how i should do the east section.

Also, staging, i would like it so it looks like my trains/cars come from somewhere. i dont know where to put staging...
I was thinking maybe how i have that outside loop around the whole layout, on the east section, where it crosses over from west to east section/bridge, on south side i could make it go off the layout next to it, dropping elevation so it would follow the table but on the outside and maybe it could go under the layout as it reaches the wall.

So staging would go off layout and under layout... is this a good idea, or should i just simplify things and make it go behind a tall building or in some mountain?


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## Big Ed

joed2323 said:


> The gray caulk you see is called sikaflex. its really good caulk it expands and contracts, it stays flexible after it cures. This was extra stuff i was able to have from my work. it pays when your the shop foreman of a trucking company. We use the sikaflex for caulking trailers, etc.



You STOLE it?

I will have to check it out.

I haul chemicals in a tanker.
I never buy chemicals, the milk man takes home milk, the bread man takes home bread, the chemical man takes home chemicals.

When I moved from a rent a house into my own house, I was amazed at the chemicals I had stock piled.
It would have made a nice explosion if there was a fire!

Now I just bring it home in labeled 16oz bottles.
I got a gallon of Odorless minerals spirits that always come in handy.

Instead of having a lot, I just have around 10, 16oz bottles of various chemicals. 
I can replenish my stock anytime.

You have to figure out what your going to do in the middle to get suggestions.


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## joed2323

i want a paper mill, always wanted one. but dont know how i could compress it to make it fit my layout, i could always add a section or two to my layout 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2387-1329061277364.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-14598-1329061295135.jpg

Those pictures are of paper mill ideas, thats the number one industry i wanted, but was thinking of not doing it because of size of plant, and of size of my layout.

Any ideas how i could get those to fit on my layout, or would i have to add a section say, 2x4 or 2x6 to my layout to make that fit.


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## Xnats

I thought your cardboard was following your hand sketch. I did not look at the following pics in detail. Yes I liked the drawing  it something different then the everyday loop. I don't like the cardboard set up, the standard oval is blahh, imho. Those mills are nice. You can scale them down a bit, to fit your needs. No one will laugh to hard if you have a part-time paper mill :laugh:


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## Big Ed

If you really want the mill won't that fit in the empty spot you have?

Plan for the mill then put the tracks in accordingly?

Don't forget if you have a mill then you need the river by it.
All mills I have ever been to have a river along side of it.
Not to say that there is a mill with no river by it, all the ones I have been to have one.

How big is the mill that you pictured?

Edit,

What scale are we talking about?
HO? N?
I might have missed it if you posted.


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## joed2323

10x10
ho scale

yes im trying to squeeze to much in what i have. i know exactly with the river and mill, there is 3 paper mill near my house 

i dont just want a paper mill, so i may have to scratch that idea for now.

I could always add a addition and go bigger to add the paper mill idea...

I like the cardboard set up idea, but i think -xnats- is right its just a boring oval, bla bla.. i like having a wye idea tho


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## joed2323

new ideas, it was slow at work today so i drew these up quick....

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3402-1329168161376.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2392-1329168176128.jpg

Each is slightly different. sorry guys i know you guys dont like pencil drawings  

its just rough sketch, my computer is messed up, i have anyrail but it doesnt work right now, so im stuck with pencil drawings


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## Xnats

Lol Joe, is it a butterfly? Wait no, I found Waldo, someone changed the game 

You would make a great psychologist; here are 3 tracks plans are they the same or different and why do you think that? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I'm all studied up and pick B, the one with the river. The wye and river neutralize the oval :thumbsup: That is a road switcher dream layout


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## joed2323

Xnats- lol...

Im not sure if your being sarcastic and pickin on me or being serious.

I never said i could design a layout that works, its all trial and error. I honestly dont know what im doing and im sure it shows.

I really dont know whats the best way of running tracks on the big section thats a little bigger then 4.5 x 10 feet.

If you guys have some pointers or advice i would greatly appreciate it


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## Xnats

joed2323 said:


> Xnats- lol...
> 
> Im not sure if your being sarcastic and pickin on me or being serious.


Hold on, is the answer C :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: but I like B because it is easier to spell 

I really do like the layout. It might help if you draw in what the middle will be. Woods, a town or both, this will help with the short little sidings you have. If you can't find a good thing to build next to them, ditch them. The way it is set up you have one train in operation running the outside. A road switcher can start in the the yard and does local pickups/ drop offs. To me that is a fun layout. All engine types get used this way. You have constant action the way it should be :thumbsup:


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> new ideas, it was slow at work today so i drew these up quick....
> 
> http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3402-1329168161376.jpg
> 
> http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2392-1329168176128.jpg
> 
> Each is slightly different. sorry guys i know you guys dont like pencil drawings
> 
> its just rough sketch, my computer is messed up, i have anyrail but it doesnt work right now, so im stuck with pencil drawings


I like pencil drawings just fine....it's all I use.


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## joed2323

xnats- thanks... helps my confidence alittle bit knowing im atleast making a little progress. glad you actually like one of my fiddle diddles... 

i will admit those sidings do look pretty short, i just stuck them here and there to give a idea. 

scott- yes i actually use graph paper that seems to help also. i seem to like using pencil drawings, but i understand that alot of things may not fit well when it comes down to transfering it to the table. trial and error.

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-11093-1329181618453.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2202-1329181704921.jpg
heres a view of all the crap cleaned off the top of table. planning on getting some blue on the backdrop tmrw also, 
btw backdrop is only 24 inches tall, but layout is 50 inches from floor so it works for me


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## Big Ed

In stead of blue, why don't you just get a backdrop scene of your liking?


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## joed2323

ed, paints cheaper then backdrop scenes. i would need atleast 20 feet of it


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## Xnats

Joe what are all the table dimensions? I started duplicating your layout on XCad and am running into problems hwell: I need the width for the front (yard, walk-in and main section) and depth of the walk-in. How many #4 and #6 do you have of each? Hopefully I'll get to work on it again today after work.


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## joed2323

Xnats- thanks bud.

Overall size is 10x10

The left section or west is 10 feet long by 2 feet deep.
The north section as when you walk in pit looking straight ahead is 10 feet by 2 feet.
The big section or east section is just over 4.5 feet by 10 feet.
the lift up hinge secion isnt made just yet, i was plannng on having that probably no more then 6-12 inches wide, more like 6 inches.

Im not sure of actuall pit size im at work right now but i thought it was around 33 inches wide?? Dont go by 33inches until i measure, if possible go by the dimensions of the table sections... i also have tringle pieces on both west and east sections of the pit attached to the north section, im not sure of the actual word of this, but it gives me more room since it makes the sections more roundish instead os square. You can see what im talking about in my recent pictures.

Im not using any #4 turnouts im trying to stay bigger then #4, since all i bought and have a bunch of #6 and #8 turnouts. But i think the wye turnout from atlas might be a #4, it doesnt say on package, looks smaller then #8 #6

I wanted to stay #8 on the mainline if possible.

Again, thanks alot,, youve been a great help.

Hopefully you can come up with the layout or something similar to this on your program


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## joed2323

I just had my girlfriend msasure the opening of pit and she says its 3 feet and 3 inches.

So my east section/big table is just under 5 feet wide

Walk in pit would be 8 feet deep then


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## Xnats

Ok - sectional track is out of the question in most places. I used all #6 turnouts, 24" on the outer loop and 22" inside. I need to play with AnyRail and try different stuff but I only have the free version myself. This what I stopped at. I could not duplicate the top right corner and the yard gets worse using 8's. Your drawing is using #2 switches, lol.


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## sstlaure

My personal opinion is that so long as your trains are operating at yard speeds, #4 switches work just fine in the yards. A #8 turnout is about 2x as long as a #4. I operate 6axle diesels on the #4's in my yards without any problems. Unless you've got a really good amount of track length/space to deal with, I think the #8's will cause more trouble than they solve.


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## joed2323

All im using is flextrack..

The yard can go smaller if need be. But i do want a 2stall engine garage no matter what.
The yard looks bigger then what i had drawn out?
How can we/i make this not so crammed w ith track... go bigger on layout or delete some track here and there?

You changed the track design alittle bit seems like you added more then what i had drawn out. Unless what i had wouldnt work?

My drawing was similar to masseys design and he did that in a 9.5x9.5 space.

Can you take the wye and connect it to the second inner loop/track up north section, and condense the yard down?

I like the wye for turning trains but if thats what is messing with the rest of layout plan then maybe i should scrap the wye

Thank you very much for taking the time to make that and to take the time to help me


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## Xnats

Ok I got your sketch to work with AnyRail, except the yard. I could not get the wye to work with sectional pieces on XCad. Never mind the red flex in the pic, I have to stay under 50 pieces, so stuff is over extended, lol. Flex diffidently solved the problem. You should be able to build off your sketch, that is what I really started to check( the build-able part). Never mind the yard here either, it had a 2nd main across your bridge, which I turned into a duck under :laugh: Scott is right about the #4. I know you bought #6s so that is all I used. I'm personally a fan of 6's too. The yard really needs some thought about a useful design. 2 feet is plenty wide but 10 feet is to short to match the sketch. I was playing more then anything on the first pic. The nice thing about about the Cad software is you can run trains. I was adding stuff, because it seemed to need it  The wye worked nice but a reverse loop seemed to help alot and a double-main is always nice  I had more in there but it looked to crowded.


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## joed2323

stan- awesome job, i cant thank you enough for helping me out 

I really like that design it works and looks like something i can get to work.
did you run trains on this design on your cad software?

Yes i would really like using all #6, but it would make me even happier if i can get a few #8s in there, since those were almost 20 bucks a peice... i know i dont have much room, but ****, i bought a bunch of #8s thinking and reading what people say about bigger turnouts for modern locos and what not.. as i want to run modern day 

Atleast i bought alot of flextrack that i can use. do you think a double mainline would really be nice or?
You stated you tried a reverse loop, and maybe a double mainline, what did those look like?

i guess i just took one in the *** hey, spending all the money on #8 turnouts that i probably cant get to use or work, even if i could modify or lose some track here and there to get #8s to work would almost be ok with me but if i dont have the room then i dont have the room, i will save them for my next layout when i take over the basement, haha 

I agree the yard i came up with and the yard you made for me needs work, if we can work the yard out, then i think i have a layout to start building
I think from the mainline between the wye tracks of the yard we could keep that and almost get rid of the rest and clean it up a bit, what do you think?

im getting excited, thanks everyone and thank you stan for helping me with the new design


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## Xnats

You should be able to use some #8s on the main section/ right side. Going into the Wye I would triple check first. The yard all #6s imho. I tried an idea for the yard using 2 cross-overs, just as an idea. The green things are the engine house, well the best I could find in the general size. It sure is a chore getting there :laugh: Might be fun with a switcher shunting freight


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## joed2323

do you think i need to have the yard lead at all? or where its at? i honestly dont like the way the yard is layed out, no offense, part of it is my fault.

i was thinking like 3-4 yard tracks tops and tracks going to the engine house, i would like a rip track also. Would a compound straight ladder help my space?

why does the yard look more complexed? or is that just how it has to be because of space restraints?

what do you think of this layout idea? its in a smaller foot print
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3387-1329357202738.jpg


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## Xnats

joed2323 said:


> my space?
> 
> why does the yard look more complexed? or is that just how it has to be because of space restraints?
> 
> what do you think of this layout idea? its in a smaller foot print
> http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3387-1329357202738.jpg


rofl, I was trying to fill the width so there was some storage/ parking :laugh: I was just pushing it to the max 
After looking at a professional drawing, I like that one better :laugh: It is nice when roads and buildings are in place, it gives a better perspective of things. If I ever do a real layout I'm going to build the highways system, stake out building lots, then run tracks through some how and hope for the best :laugh:


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## joed2323

I was thinking maybe connect the wye to the mainline instead of running into yard?

Do you think having the loop on the right section is a waste of space? Could i make the right section more useful if i eliminated that loop and went with a double main instead, and used that space for spurs/ industries?

I know the yard would look/work better with say 3-4 tracks. Save the extra room with erasing the other yard tracks.


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## joed2323

For whoever who might care -

Ive messed around on my yard section of my layout and its roughly laid out at 7-8 feet longest track is 6feet long plus a #6 turnout. Its a tight space with trying to get tracks around yard going to the other sections of layout.

Im thinking of adding a 8 foot section on the west section against the wall on layout to free up more space. Also to give me more of a around room style longer mainline run.

So i have a 10x10 now, im thinking of adding another 2 foot by 8 foot section dedicated for just a yard and the rest of layout i can have more room for other stuff.

I guess im rdy to go bigger because my space is tight for a dedicated yard plus everything else i want. Btw i have a nce power cab on its way from modeltrainstuff.com, i payed 164.88 shipped, cant wait


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## Xnats

A 2x18 section, boy that is nice, the yard will fit now :laugh: DCC  there is no turning back back now:thumbsup:


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## joed2323

The yard better fit now with 2x18. It frees up alot of room.

I still want a wye, trying ro figure out where the best spot for that is? At the same spot i have planned before or down near the new section by yard?

Theres no turning back now, cant wait to get my power cab

I shouldnt have to cram the track plan into a 10x10, i just have to add a section here a nd there to get the space i need 

I need to get some staging/interchange in my track plan as well, any ideas?


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## sstlaure

OK....Now I want to see a drawing of the overall area available and any doors/windows in the room. If you've got an 18' length somewhere in it, I'd like to sketch out some ideas.


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## joed2323

Thanks scott please do...

Are you guys not reading what i type. Ive stated no doors or objects to avoid.
Its a open square basement no rooms,walls, door ways that i cant block. Its all open and ready for me to use.

Im guessing its atleast 40x80? I know its 1500sq feet
Picture a big open basement the size of a square with only walls around the foundation, thats what my basement looks like.


That design im looking at making looks like a P

Anyone that wants to sketch or help out a plan i will very appreciate your help, thanks.

Btw it doesnt have to have a wye it could have a reverse loop or even a turntable


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## sstlaure

I'm reading what you type, just sometimes it's hard to follow all of the "help with planning my layout" threads going at the same time.

I'm just trying to get a feel for the overall shape/size desired, any support poles (it is in the basement, right), desired entrances, etc that would work. 

So you want to add a 2'x18' section, where do you want that added? Can it have a 4'x4' square section at the end of the 18' length? I saw in your earlier pics that your current 10x10 is up against 2 walls.....So it's completely open on the other 2 walls?


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## joed2323

Scott- thank u once again

Yes the only 2 walls are the left side/west and north side. The botton/south and right/east is open.

I do have support poles, thats only object in basement. But those support poles are dead center of basement:thumbsdown:. The only pole that is near my layout is one and its probably 3-4 feet to the right of that big 5x10 section.

There isnt anyother poles on the left side of basement, my layout is on leftside of basement and poles are in middle they dont come close and wont be a issue thats why i left that part out.

What are you thinking with the 4x4 section you have in mind? Are you thinking of a dogbone with a loop on that end of 2x18 section?

Let me know what you have in mind since your a excellent layout designer.
im very impressed with the layout you have 

I have a 10x10 dougnut style now and i was trying to squeeze a decent yard on the left side against wall and its just too tight. So im thinking of adding a 2x8 section to the already existing 2x10 section thats there now giving me a total of 2x18.


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## sstlaure

AHHHH. I got it now. My thought was to make the staging yard flow through (so you could have continuous running.) The 4x4 at the end would allow a turn-around loop at the head end of staging.

Is this what you're talking?


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## joed2323

Scott- petfect...
thats what i have now and what im probably adding on this afternoon when i get home from work


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## joed2323

Scott you have me all excited now. Lets see what you have for ideas


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## Xnats

Scott does have an excellent idea with the yard end, you could still have your lift up section too.


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## joed2323

Stan correct. Im thinking of keeping the left up section unless scott has something better without the use of a liftout section


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## sstlaure

Are you up for a separate layer for staging? I could maximize the "on table" layout and still provide nice staging if you are. You'd just set the staging level at the height you're at (or lower the whole table a little bit) and build up from there. 

My staging level is about 14" different in height from my main level (roadbed to roadbed), you could squeeze the height together probably a couple more inches to reduce the climb necessary.

My thoughts are:

- 3-4 staging tracks and a run-around (for continuous running)
- Paper mill (I believe this was one major industry you wanted, correct?)
- If you're doing a paper mill, maybe a logging area to get pulpwood from
- Smaller on-layout yard with drive through Arrival/Departure track and single ended 3 track fiddle yard, you also wanted a 2 stall engine shed I believe.

I'll start with this and play around with the basic shape. Would you be up for rebuilding some of the benchwork you currently have? I can bend/loop the track in ways to open up operating room and give a nice flow to the trackwork.

I'd either keep the lift-up section, and most likely the track going across it will end up entering a tunnel which will go under the main yard along the 18' wall and back down to staging.

Or, the main layout will be loops at both ends....gotta put thoughts to paper and move stuff around.

Watch out though....I can get creative (but I'm willing to give you help on how to make the benchwork if needed)

Overall the trains would start in staging, come out onto the layout from one direction or the other, go around the layout, then go back to staging. They could do continuous running and would be out of site for the time to go around the layout an extra loop. The staging level wouldn't go across the lift-out section.


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## joed2323

Lol lets see it. Im open for ideas. Im willing to change things if i like how it all flows together.

Im kewl with a second deck for staging lower then the rest of layout, or however it may turn out scott.

How am i going to go from each separate level, nolix?

Im excited to see this monster scott.

Yes i want to model paper mill since i live near 3 of them. And there is logging all around me so yes im kewl with all your ideas


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## sstlaure

Could do a nolix around the perimeter or If the 4x4 could be a 5x5 I could do a helix w/an outer loop climbing from staging and inner loop decending back into staging. (extra width needed to get a decent grade on the inner loop - 24 radius inner, 27" outer loops. Similar to mine I'd hide the helix under a mountain.

You could then have a turnaround loop on the bottom level if you wanted to reverse the direction of any trains.


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## joed2323

Draw me up an idea of what your thnking. Id rather do a nolix then helix. Please when you get a chance

I will think about the helix idea


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## sstlaure

OK....I'll see what I can figure out either way. 

The nice thing about the helix is you keep the major climbs all in the same area, freeing up space elsewhere on the layout.


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## joed2323

Ok scott hope you have time to draw your plan out tnt? On my way up to home depot to get some extra lumber. Do you recommend a type of plywood for making curves for helix and what not, or can i make osb plywood work being cheap?

Just picked up my 8 footers for the new 2x8 extension. We can go 2x4 4x4 or 5x5 at the end scott. I have enuf wood to do either way


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## sstlaure

I used 1/2" thick plyboard for my decking. I'll try to figure out at least a mainline tonight. Probably will be later though.


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## joed2323

Thanks scott much appreciated. 

Atleast i can get my 2x8 addition up tonight hopefully as long as my 4 year old and 2 year old cooperate.

Its tough making progress with my kiddos sometimes


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## sstlaure

Alright....give this a gander. Each square is 6"x6"

First the main level....











Yard with 2 stall engine house (room for more)
A/D track
3 sorting tracks
A couple of passing sidings arranged so that long trains can pass each other on the run (in case you go DCC) Room for the paper mill at the first siding.
logging area near the end of the mainline run which goes upgrade from the mainline as the mainline descends.
I maintained a minimum radius of 24" so you can run ANYTHING
Dotted lines are where the track goes into a tunnel and descends into staging.


Then the staging level....










Each end descends from the main level, goes around a single 360 degree loop (add an extra 360 loop if you want more vertical separation of staging/main level) then out into the staging body tracks. 

I gave you 4 staging tracks and 1 run-around track.


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## joed2323

i actually like it, its different from what you see all the time. Awesome job scott. You should design train layouts for a living 

what are the dimensions im guessing the longest part is 18 feet long then, sorry i know you said each square is 6x6 its just tough to see those lines

Im going to be running dcc, im waiting for my nce power cab to arrive next week 

I have one lil problem

I dont really want to lower my layout or take down what i have up now to build it lower. I dont mind adding on as i just about have the 2x8 new extension up tonight.

my layout height is sitting at about 50 inches, i wanted it high. so i have 2 options. i can either build a deck under the layout i have now, or build on top of the 50 inch from floor deck i have now, what would you do, and im sure you would tare down and start over but im not, im sorry.

I like all your ideas. im sure we can work out my slight problem with the height. i didnt want a helicopter view layout so thats why i went 50 inches with this one.

I think the simple thing to do would be do build the staging level under neath my existing layout? Would building a second level over my 50 inch high layout be like looking in the sky lol ?

How much of a distance is there between each level? 

What do you have between your current layout masterpeice you have?


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## sstlaure

Overall layout drawn above is 18' along the longest dimension, 10' along the others.

My staging is at 33", main level is at 44" and the upper yard is at 53"

Each 360 turn around the helix loops is a drop of 4", you can go as many revolutions as you need to get the drop you want (on both ends.) About the minimum I would go is about 9" separation (roadbed to roadbed distance.) This will still give you some room to get your hands in over the top of the cars/engines in staging.

Biggest problem you'll get into trying to descend through benchwork you already have is tracks intersecting with benchwork braces that are already in-place.

Can't you take some height off of the legs of the benchwork already there? Building underneath existing benchwork would be a PAIN.


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## joed2323

how would you suggest i go about cutting the legs in place already? just take a hand saw and cut one leg down and somehow just move around to the different legs and cut them down???

Im glad i have a cordless circular saw also, that is one of the most handy tools, one think i do have is lots of different tools.

Im trying to figure a way to go about doing this.

what size turnouts did you use in this plan? i have a bunch of #6 and #8s, if i need #4s thats ok. also, seems like a bit of flextrack needed, i have 25-30 peices now, ballpark guess, how many more would you think i will need? 

To be honest i almost was thinking i could build above my current layout, yes it will be high, but it will be eye level, the best sight to view trains honestly. 5 feet high isnt really too high right? if i can keep highest level around/under 60 inches it should be ok ?

i have a meeting at 8am, when i get home around 10am i will see whats the best way to attack this, i will see how the braces under my layout will be in way if i try to go under current layout, i might just be able to cut the braces that are in the way and relocate them to a different spot?? or see if i can just build above my layout.
am i thinking wrong because it wont be too high for me but may be high for others like my kids, but i was planing on building the kids a wooden step stool box so the can see what im seeing

also, do you think i really need 4 staging tracks? i guess i would if i have a paper mill, because there is a big flow of different cars around the clock to supply the mill. 

also i love the yard, how long is this btw? i need to wear my glasses maybe i could see those 6x6 squares

how would we hide the 360 loops, in a mountain, or should they be able to be seen?


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## sstlaure

Sorry it's so hard to see. I don't have a scanner at home, so I had to take a pic of the piece of paper. I'll scan in on Monday so you can view it easier.

Take a look at my build thread, you can see where my helix is hidden (I was thinking something similar on yours)

Tracks in the yard are 6-7ft long, but you could probably lengthen them if you wanted to.

I really tried to just layout the mainline and the yard, and leave tons of room for adding spur tracks whereever you wanted them. These things evolve, so I think it's best to go with an overall rough concept, build out the mainline (just tack it down),. then start to layout spurs, etc.

I tried to drawthe turnouts around a #6, but I think with as open as I left the space, you may want to just start connecting your turnouts on the table so that you can understand how much room the different groupings of turnouts take. You could probably lay out staging with the #8's, depending on what angle you want them set at.

As far as the staging tracks, if you want fewer, go for it (it's your layout afterall). I just used 4 to give you 2 northbound and 2 southbound train capacity.

If you wanted to make things easier, you could just make the 18' long wall (I'll call it West) and the North wall sides a little deeper and just hid the staging behind a removable backdrop for access. I'd only do maybe 2 staging tracks wide if that's what you'd want to do. (although you could probably still get 4 staging tracks in there, just in 2 pairs of 2 tracks. You'd simply connect the dotted lines at either end of the layout.

No reason you couldn't just go up a little more in height if you're comfortable with that. (don't know how tall you are - I'm 5'9" so anything higher than the 53" I'm at starts to make things difficult to work on (leaning over layout, etc.) If you don't like it, you can always take a saw to it later. I always use 2x2 for my legs and insert a nut-sert/bolt into the bottom of the leg to level it. (threaded insert that goes into a hole and you can insert a large bolt into it and it won't spin.)

If you did want to drop the height, you could make a set of temp legs that you could just screw into the layout to hold it up while you remove 1 leg at a time and take it to the new desired height.

Heck....if you want to, just ramp UP to staging rather than down and run the staging tracks on a small shelf along the back edge. A low backdrop could hide them from view.


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## joed2323

Scott again thanks so much for your design and helping me i cant thank you enough.

This layout is awrsome. The more and more i look at this, there is so many different ways i could use this or alter it to my likings. I like the main level especially how it divides into 2 different scenes on the 6x10 area where it would go into staging  logging on one side paper mill on the other.

I gotta decide if i want staging underneath or above main level like a ramp up like you suggested. After looking at this stagging is a must, i dont think i could get away with stagging, and stagging is needed.

Just trying to figure out if i need #4 turnouts or not because im sending the wifey to the hobby store today to pick up some extra turnouts/flextrack that i may need.

I think the yard length is perfect. Alot of what you designed is perfect.


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## sstlaure

I'm glad you like it. I tried to leave areas where you could add/expand industries, etc.

I'd lay out the shape of the large combinations of turnouts on your table and see how much room you have or if you need to go the smaller turnouts. Also count the total # of turnouts already in the plan and those that you will add (spurs, etc) to see if you already have areas where you need some more and can get the #4's where needed.

When I did my first layout I bought a bunch of #8's as well, but they took up so much linear space on the mainline that they caused corners to get bunched up and undersized. If you run your trains at more prototypical speeds, the smaller turnouts aren't an issue (they're typically in the yard where movements are much slower.)

You could futher divide the scenes (making transition from one scene to another easier) by adding in viewblocks at the ends of the scenes. You can see where I did this on my layout between the mountain/yard sections.


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## sstlaure

I just used a scale set at 1' increments and went around the layout

I'd guess about 90' of flex track currently on the main level.

Staging can eat up track pretty quick. I measured about 115' of track descending from the mainline to staging, through the 5 yard tracks (4 stage and 1 runaround) and back ascending to the mainline at the other side of the layout (assumed each "helix" was only 1-360 degree loop on either end of the layout.

Each trip around a 360 loop of the helix is little under 14' of track.


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## joed2323

wow thats quite a bit of track. i may try and cut down on some of that staging track if possible.

im looking at my table and the supports now, and what im looking at doesnt look like there should be much problem with supports being in the way if i go with staging underneath. all my supports are at the outside, away from where track should go. 

so those 360 loops are 24 inch radius curves or 48inchew around total

Ive been waiting for the wifey to say wtf, this train table wasnt that big before, it seems to keep growing in size haha  so far so good.


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## sstlaure

The helix curves are 26" radius or 52" in diameter. The tighter you get the more the grade of the track inside the helix. I know the 26" works as that's what I'm using and any single engine can pull a whole train up the grade no problem (length of train dictated by shortest passing siding.)

Adding a second level is just like building an additional layout, but even more from a track standpoint because you have to get to/from staging as well adding even more track.

Go with 2 staging tracks and a run-around for now and add them later if you find you want/need them.


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## joed2323

Sounds like a plan. 

Are u suggesting the one level with the staging behind backdrop like u suggested or the 2 tracks under main level?


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## sstlaure

Either....keeping them on the same level and putting them behind a backdrop is easier, but a separate level gives you TONS of room for further expansion in the future, and there isn't any reason you NEED to have a bunch of staging tracks, but as you get more and more rolling stock, it's nice to have a place to put it.

All depends on what you're going for. I fully plan on building mine for the next 40 or so years, expanding as I go, so I try to make it flexiblie with an eye towards the future.

What I'd do is figure out how far you want to go with this, then just build the main table section mainline, as well as the mainline to go down and back up from staging and the single run-around track (this will give you continuous running), then add the staging tracks as you see a need for them.


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## joed2323

i want a layout i can work on and add on also, and not have it finished in 6 months saying i should have made it bigger now im bored...

Quick question scott. could i get away with making the blobs for the 360 loop, 5 feet, or would that be cutting it close around the edges? i think that would be somewhere around 4 inches from track to edge? 

Im making the blobs now so im trying to decide if 6 feet is overkill or will 5 feet work?

Im not sure if we discussed the size of the one 360 loop on the end of that 18foot run, how far does that jet out from wall, and would you know the size of that triangle peice? 

Im just thinking of reach issues i may have?


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## sstlaure

5 feet (60") diameter is what I drew them at. 26" radius gives you 52" diameter at the centerline, leaving about 4" outside of the tracks all around for edge protection. The peninsula is also 5 feet wide and the 2 tracks there are 24" radius inner and 27" radius outer. The 3" track spacing should allow enough clearance for any car between tracks.

On my layout I also run edge protectors (about 1.5" tall) along the edges of the hidden tracks to prevent anything spilling onto the floor. The visible part of the layout will eventually get lexan (clear) edge protectors.

I tried to keep the reach-in around 24" maximum, that's one reason I angled the yard the way I did (tucks the engine house closer to the edge in the loop.) You'd need to reach in for derailments, uncoupling cars and throwing turnouts.

The triangle would be 3' on each of the short sides with 90/45/45 degree corners.


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## joed2323

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-1689-1329612164636.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2922-1329612151975.jpg 
the new part i just added 

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2924-1329612188350.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2868-1329612204815.jpg

that cardboard circle is 54 inches in diameter on that blob end

I still have to add that corner peice coming off the 360 loop


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## sstlaure

Looks good.


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## JohnAP

Nice work. I can't wait to get back above sea level so I can have an awesome basement layout too!


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## joed2323

Finishing up the benchwork and the simple backdrop for now, need to get some clouds painted on the wall somehow, ive watched people make clouds with stencils, im gonna have to get some.

I put my 4 year old son to work. Glad hes into this
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2046-1329674748619.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3164-1329674774993.jpg

finished mainlevel
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2393-1329687558175.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2940-1329687584576.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2286-1329687616322.jpg

And heres 2 different paper mill ideas i like, which do you guys prefer? 1 or 2
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-14598-1329061295135.jpg

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2387-1329061277364.jpg


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## Xnats

Looking good Joe, nice to see family teamwork. Scott really has you hooked up on the layout. 
I vote 1 on the Mill, seems more fun on the switching side of things.


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## Conductorjoe

Benchwork looks good. :thumbsup:
Great to see the little one giving a hand. I can see the Thomas the Tank Loco pulling out of the Paper Mill now.


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## THE TYCO MAN

Hey Joe! Copy and paste the image code (it'll say IMG Code, click on it) and paste the code and it will appear!Hope it helps!


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## THE TYCO MAN

I like paper mill one idea better honestly. Won't take up as much real estate as mill #2.


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## sstlaure

I actually like #2. 

You could bend the de-barker, etc. round the corner between the north wall and the LH side of the backdrop on the peninsula. If you get creative with hills on the other side of the layout, you can use partial building fronts set at an angle to create the buildings and have the cars going into the buildings pass through the backdrop and under the hills on the other side.


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## joed2323

Scott- not exactly sure what you mean i have a idea.

Do you mean going behind the backdrop on the north wall or thru the divider on he peninsula. Separateing the peninsula? I cant quite get a picture in my head?


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## sstlaure

Through the divider on the peninsula. You could have the debarker, etc parallel to the North wall, the other facility would sit at a 45 degree angle like shown in your example against LHS of the scenic divider....then cut a car sized hole through the scenic divider on the peninsula behind/inside the building. 

Then you make the hills on the RH side of the divider high enough that cars (2-3) could be slid into the building doors and pass through the divider, hiding them under the hills on the other side. You need a minimum of ~3.5" clearance

You'll get a low-relief building that takes up little space on the layout, is still useful from a car movement/storage standpoint, and should give a nice visual impact to the scene.

I'd probably thrift out some of the tracks in either of the paper mill designs to compress it a little as well.


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## joed2323

Thanks scott. So helpful like always


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## joed2323

scott- with my given space for the yard im trying to figure out the length of the a/d tracks, how long should they be to be useful, also the length of each yard track how long is a safe length.

I dont want to make them too small, nor to i want them too big, as in wasting space.

Thanks. just trying to get my tracks layed down on the layout so i can hopefully see how they all fit, so then i can lay some roadbed and get soldering


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## sstlaure

The way I designed mine was like this.

I determined how long of a train I wanted to run (around 10 cars for me), then I made sure my A/D tracks and passing sidings were at least that long. 

You want a train to be able to pull into the yard, leave however many cars it needs to and depart without fouling the mainline (having cars sticking into mainline traffic)

Does that help? There really isn't any one right answer, it all depends on what you want.


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## sstlaure

Not sure if I mentioned this or not. "Track Planning for Realistic Operations" is an excellent reference on how to lay this stuff out and make these kinds of decisions.


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## joed2323

Lol. I have this book. I guess i should read it hey! Instead of looking at the pictures and glancing through it


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## sstlaure

I've read it cover to cover many times. You catch onto different ideas each time. Great reference.


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## joed2323

thanks scott, yea i even take it to work and look at this book. your right i do learn alittle more every time i look at it, theres alot of good info in that book.

Im trying to figure how many cars i could run at once on the layout you designed for me,and im guessing 8-12 max 

So im trying to get a rough idea on how many feet that would be in my head, since i dont have all my cars yet, they are in the mail, im awaiting arrival of my nce power cab and some cars.

I guess its just hard to figure how long i need to make things when i dont even know how long a gondula, box car, hopper, etc measures, around 9 inches i thought per car, but i cant use 9 inches since each car has a different measurement


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## joed2323

i guess im trying to get the ball rolling before i have all my trains... remember im starting fresh with nothing so i lost all my old trains/cars from when i was young. 

what would 10 cars measure length wise on your layout? i know that wont really be the same for me, but it gives me a idea


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## sstlaure

60 ft boxcar is about 8.5" long (60*12)/87 with couplers. 10 cars is about 85" or ~7 ft.


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## joed2323

Thanks scott you have been awesome with helping me out and answering all my dumb questions.

This is the best model train forum on the web, it has the nicest people on this forum who are willing to help a stranger who is learning the skills it takes to become a model railroader.

Once again thanks to you guys that go the extra mile to help each other out. Glad im a member of this forum


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## sstlaure

No problem at all.....It will be neat to see something I designed come to life (without me actually building it for once  )


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## joed2323

Scott what number turnouts did you use for your layout in the yard?

Im thinking of buying #4 turnouts for my yard instead of using #6 or even the #8s i have pyled up.

I have to add a little to my bench coming out of the 360 loop on the west side near the isle. Im having a problem getting the a/d tracks to fit without makiing the tracks too curved. Im trying to keep those tracks around 7 feet so i can park the train without fowling the mainline. Even the mainline is hugging the isle ready to fall off bench, so i either have add width at that spot on bench or see what a #4 turnout might change my problem.
"
Im thinking if i use #4 turnouts for the yard turnouts i might be able to get all my tracks to fit better? 

What do you think? Is #4 to sharp for any locos like a sd70 for example?
I dont want to spend 100 bucks on #4 turnouts if they are to tight or any othet problems
I may face.

I can get #6 turnouts to work its just i need to add alittle width to the bench to get the tracks to fit without them being sharp after the turnouts.

Should i spend the money for #4s or just add width to my bench to make the tracks flow better?


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## sstlaure

I used #4's on mine.


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## mr_x_ite_ment

I use #4's as well. They seem to take up less room, and any loco I have (even the longer 6-axle ones) seem to go through them just fine. Usually there is not a high rate of speed when traveling through a yard anyway. 

Chad


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## joed2323

You guys even use #4s coming off the main into the yard lead? 

I can fit #6s i got them to fit now, im just wonder how much land or room i would save using #4s over #6s in general.

I had to add just a tad to my bench to fit it all though.

I can cut a little off the turnouts to make them fit better? Ive heard this before 

Would it justify going out and buying atleast 6 more #4 turnouts? I ordered a few from modeltrainstuff.com last night along with more flextrack.
Making my yard just ate up a bunch of flex, i cant get my order fast enough


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## sstlaure

The secret to #4's working reliably is keeping the engine speed down when going onto the diverging route. #4's will work right off the mainline, you just need to slow the engine down to yard speeds to enter the yard. Trains continuing down the mainline won't care if it's a 4,6,or 8 if they are going straight through the turnout.


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## mr_x_ite_ment

I agree with Scott...I use #6's on the mainline, but would agree that if the loco is slowed down enough, a #4 would likely work just fine. 

Chad


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## NIMT

I use #6's or #8's on passing sidings and crossovers, #8 into and out of passanger stations, #6's off main to the siding to get to the yard, #4's off the main to spur tracks, and #4's in the yards.


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## joed2323

scott- back to yard questions. 

On your design, when im building a train or taking one apart on the a/d tracks, wouldnt i be fowling the main, because i would have to pull/push cars into the yard tracks from the a/d tracks, pulling out on the main and the back into the yard tracks...

Is this a good idea? what do you think about this,


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## sstlaure

Mine does foul the main when I'm pulling a cut of cars, but in the real world, this also happens. This is why they establish yard limits along the mainline outside of the yard.

Ideally you would want a yard lead that the switcher and cars could pull into, but from a modelling standpoint it all depends on the amount of traffic you're going to have on your layout.


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## joed2323

ok sounds right.

i doubt id have a train waiting to get thru if i was blocking the main, even so i could pull in to the a/d track and let it pass, no biggie i guess, just want to make sure before i get to far and have to back track my work...

I probably could fit a yard yead if i wanted to hey, but i dont think i really need one

btw, ive fitted my yard tracks with #6 turnouts, and coming off the main ive managed to make #8s work.. Figured id try and make those #8s i have stock pyled and use some up instead of wasting money...


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## sstlaure

Bigger is better if you can fit it without compromising on the corner radii. Sounds like you're making good progress.....any pics? We really like pics.


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## joed2323

Progress has been slow lately. My kids and of course the old lady seem to want my attention as soon as i feel like im starting to make some head way.

Its tough my daughter is 2 and my son is 4. So they all want equal attention. 

I go to work for 5am so i can really only stay up late on the weekends.

But i got my track planned out good i feel so now i can finally start to see some progress. 

I will start a my layout thread and keep the pics coming of my progress/questions.

I got my nce power cab today  next week my athearn genesis sd70m-2 will be here along with more flextrack and turnouts


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## kursplat

joed2323 said:


> Progress has been slow lately. My kids and of course the old lady seem to want my attention as soon as i feel like im starting to make some head way.
> 
> Its tough my daughter is 2 and my son is 4. So they all want equal attention.
> 
> I go to work for 5am so i can really only stay up late on the weekends.


i know you weren't asking but i'm feeling pontificle...:laugh:
enjoy it. 
my kids are 18 and 22 and i've been married 24 years. i'm still lucky enough to have them all happy to see me when i come home and they still want some of my time 
over the years, you'll find _lots_ of time for projects. just remember the next time your watching t.v. by yourself, you could be doing something instead :thumbsup:


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## sstlaure

My boys are 5 and 8, so I know how you feel.


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## joed2323

Scott- with your layout and all the flex you used, its all im using also, btw how far apart did you leave rail joiners un soldered? Like some every couple of feet or? 

I dont want to solder every joint and have my track standing up and playing kink games.. even though soldering is fun and as much as i want to go solder happy i wont


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## joed2323

Do you use that same glue for gluing track and roadbed? What about hot glue? Works and dries quick, can lay it faster using hot glue no?


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## sstlaure

I didn't solder any of my joiners, I run power drops on every track section (a bit overkill, but I wanted it to be reliable)

I used Alene's tacky glue for both the roadbed and the track. It doesn't dry all that quick, but I'd just tack it down with large thumbtacks and let it dry overnight. I've also used construction adhesive in a couple spots (mainly for the large cork pads in my main yard.) It sets up quicker than the tacky glue.

Hotmelt might work fine as well - I haven't used it, but I think I remember others on here who have.


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## joed2323

I also plan on running power drops atleast every 3 foot section, i have plenty of wire, might as well use it to insure i have reliable power connections throughout my track.

Question: it doesnt matter if i but turnouts next to each other correct? In a line one right after another, i dont need to have say 3 inches between each turnout, is there a wrong way to lay turnouts? 

Thats my biggest prroblem that holds me from proceeding, i cant stop second guessin my track work, im constantly thinking to myself "is this the right way"

Curves i dont second guess, but placement of turnouts makes me think...


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## sstlaure

Many of mine butt right together. 

Secret is.....there is no "one right way". 

In many cases, if I doubted what I was doing would work, I'd hook the parts together and run a set of temp power feeds to the track (alligator clips) and would run my worst case engine or cars through it to see how it would work.


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## joed2323

Good, as long as there isnt a wrong way, i should be ok


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## gunrunnerjohn

I can tell you with O-scale that I have three switches right in a row for a dual loop and they seem to work fine. Trains look kinda' funny snaking through there, but I don't have any issues with operation.  I have one locomotive that has a problem with two switches in a row, but it even has issues on one switch on occasion.

It is recommended you have a section between switches.


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## joed2323

If its recommended then how long a 9 inch section? Or more like 3 inches? 

Lots of you guys seem to have no sections between switches so im going to do the same.

Only problem i will have is with transitioning the road bed down after the switch from my main into the yard. I have switches right after the switch coming off the main so its going to be tricky on how to taper the roadbed down to flat table top in yard.

This is where i could understand to use a section of track after the switch coming off main feeding other yard switches. But i really dont have to much room adding a peice of track unless its small.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I take such recommendations with a grain of salt, as long as it works for you...


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## joed2323

Scott- did you use the same glue for cork sheets in yard? Just spread it out and tack it down? This should help my transition some from mainline into yard with these cork roll/sheet i picked up at home depot


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## kursplat

i'd think you might want to add some weight to a whole sheet to evenly hold it down until dry. large books would work good


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## joed2323

Thanks. I have alenes tacky glue. But im thinking im using my hot glue /gun to adhere the cork sheet


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## sstlaure

You still want cork under the track in the yard, just get some of the large yard pads (they make them in 12"x36" pads) You can hide the edges of the large pads by building up the surrounding terrain.

Much easier than having a sloped section of turnouts.

I used construction adhesive applied with a caulk gun for the large pads. I covered them in heavy books and full paint cans to get them flat. If you can use a dough roller to spread out the glue evenly.


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## joed2323

Scott-

Or whoever-

If im running feeders every 3-6 feet or to every flex section. I really dont need to solder any track joiners just need to solder feeders and thats it correct?

I think it may make sense to solder on curves so my curves stay nice at each section.

Why do people like to solder each section? I wouldnt rely on those ity bity rail joiners to carry current


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## joed2323

Btw- the hot glue gun is the way to go.

I can glue say an inch or two at a time lay it down. Roll it out with my roller. Then lift it back up hot glue another inch or two roll flat and repeat.

Instead of glueing a section with aleenes tacky glue and putting weight ontop intil dries. Im trying both methods.


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## sstlaure

Your benchwork with "breath" with changing temps/humidity. By not soldering the rail joiners you can allow the track to slide at the joiners. Don't butt the tracks directly against each other, leave a small gap for expansion.


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## joed2323

Ok

See now i thought the track was suppose to be butted up or derailments may occur?
Ard we talking like a 1/16th gap?


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## sstlaure

I did too when I was laying my track, but I've had some buckling in areas that I have been fixing.

I'm thinking maybe 0.5mm would be good. Then just keep an eye on it to see if it closes up completely. You don't want to go too big of a gap as the track contracts sometimes too opening up gaps.

If you see any buckling in the future you can fix it with the dremel and a cut-off wheel to even it up.


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## joed2323

scott, i cant decide if i like having the 2 stall engine garage area across the main on the west, north west corner near the start of the yard.

Or should i/we keep it where you designed it to be, near the 360 loop and in the center of yard/ a/d tracks?

Does it matter where thats located? i would think it should be in the yard area, other wise im messing with other potential scenes?? what are your thoughts

btw, i have pictures to share, just waiting for them to transfer from my droid razr to photobucket, seems like its taking forever


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## sstlaure

You can put it wherever you want, I certainly won't take offense at changes to the design. It's your layout. It should fit in either space, I just put it in the loop because there was more real estate there to work with.


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## joed2323

scott- should the a/d tracks be yard track height, or should they be as high as the mainline with roadbed under the a/d tracks?


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## sstlaure

All of mine are the same height (mainline, A/D and yard.)


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## joed2323

Thought you used cork sheets for yard? They are thinner then the cork road bed and foam rd bead? Unlesa you cut the cork sheets into strips?


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## sstlaure

My yard cork and roadbed cork is the same thickness.m (Both made by Midwest) I'll simply transition the land up to conceal the yard cork. The track appears raised sitting on the tapered roadbed material, then it butts into the large 12x36 cork sheets.


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## joed2323

Scott, im thinking either climbing up out of the 360 loop instead of going down. I think its easier looking at the way my bench work has support beams, its not impossible going down in level but going up seems easier at the moment.

Would it be stupid to have staging above main level?

Also if i dont go up a level and just keep it one level til im ready to expand coming out of both 360 loops where the track would run up against the wall, should that run be concealed so i can only see one track running thru each scene. 

Or should i make it open? I think the general rule is no closer then 3 inches next to backdrop otherwise its hard to add scenery between track and backdrop.

Sorry fo all the questions
But you are the brains behind this operation 

So basically if i keep one level for now, what do you suggest is the best way to do that track next to backdrop. Hide it in a mountain or etc. Or leave is viewable?


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## sstlaure

Go with 2 staging tracks along the back edge, you should be able to do that within a 4" width strip. That will give you a couple tracks of staging. Personally I'd hide them inside buildings if they are going along the backside of a yard or industry. (You'd cut portals through the backs of the buildings and place them against the backdrop....trains would go around a corner and appear to go behind the buildings when viewed from the tableside of the layout.) 

In the future there wouldn't be any tear-up needed and you could still use those hidden tracks to simulate a connection with another rail company should you decide for additional staging on a separate level.


Or you could just do a short backdrop that you can reach over/remove if necessary (maybe 12" tall)


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## joed2323

Great advice  thank you

Thought track spacing was suppose to be near 1 3/4-2 inches on straights and around 2 1/4- 2 1/8 on curves?

I guess it does sound/look better if i hide those staging tracks vs being able to see a continuous loop on my layout top, spoils each scene if theres 2 tracks going through each scene.

I should in some way make the staging accessible for any problems i may encounter?


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## sstlaure

You are correct on spacing, that's center to center to allow clearance between tracks, you can get away with a little less on the outboard sides where another car won't be passing. 2 tracks wide is 2" center to center + ~1" on either outboard side for a total of 4" (A little more helps in placing cars if you can get the room.)

Definitely make the staging accessible. If you go inside buildings, glue all of the bldg sidewalls together so that it can be lifted out in 1 piece. Put black paper or paint the insides of the windows so that you don't see the trains passing through the building. If you want to get really fancy, you could have occupation lights on a panel that shows which tracks have trains on them.

You could still get 4 staging tracks with only 2 deep if you go with 2 sets of 2 spread along the length of the backedge of the table (both the 18' and 10' walls)

Want me to fiddle with the track plan a little and see what I can come up with? If you wanted one I could work in a return loop to change train direction as well.


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## joed2323

Scott- please do. Please fiddle with the plan
Yes changing directions would be awesome. 

Im just not sure how i could but buildings one after another in a row and make it not look like a city.

Im trying to keep it looking somewhat like the up of michigan.


Btw, cant wait to see what you draw up

Add a interchange track somewhere if do able please


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## sstlaure

Hmmm.....If I butt the buildings it will look like a city. I'll try to make some time tonight to think something up....


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## joed2323

Geterdone done...  thanks scott.

Unless u can make it look like a up michigan town with industries.

Whatever you come up with im sure i will like it 

Probably hide alot of ot behind trees and such


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## joed2323

If you have ideas for buildings and such like you suggested i more then happy to see what you have in mind for the staging area.

Cant wait to see what you are doodling


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## sstlaure

If you like the UP....then I'm thinking trying Marquette. (Buildings big enough to hide trains and hills as well.)

I didn't have time last night to work on it, I'll try again tonight.


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## joed2323

Awesome that will work. Thanks, i appreciate all your help


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## sstlaure

Is all of the base benchwork built as previously drawn? (Just so I know of any limitations.)


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## joed2323

Yes sir. Bench work is exactly how ur design is.
my yard area is pretty much laid out how i like, its pretty much identical to what you designed. But its not glued down so i can tweek it if need be.

No limitations.


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## joed2323

Hoping we get alot of snow tonight so i can stay home tomorrow and work on your design your hopefully tweeking for me


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## sstlaure

OK....so I really re-arranged things. Putting the staging along the back edge behind a low backdrop painted blue to match the high backdrop that runs behind the whole layout. Having both painted sky blue should allow them to blend together. Red lines are the backdrops. I'll scan this at work in the morning (had to take a pic of it tonight to let you see it.)

I moved the logging and mill areas further apart and put the yard between them. To fit the yard like this did require a few curved turnouts (2 RH curved and 1 LH curved.) They allow turnouts to happen in the middle of a curve rather than having to wait until a straightaway.

I did increase the depth of the north wall by 6" to 30" deep rather than 24" to help in fitting the staging tracks. With staging set-up the way I have it you can have 2 trains staged and still have continuous running around the layout.

I theory you could have a return loop come off the end of the 18' long peninsula and intersect back with the mainline where I have the mill spur identified.

Whaddya think?


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## joed2323

I like it. I looked at it last night for like a hour.

Things im unsure about..
Having curved yard tracks, i have very slight curved yard tracks now, but it looks in the picture that i may have coupling and uncoupling problems at those sharp corners?

I dont really like having to spend atleast 28 bucks on one curved turnout let alone 3  
Do you know where to find curved turnouts cheaper?
I do alot of my shopping from modeltrainstuff.com

Things i do like.
I like how it seperates the mill area from say the logging.
i like how there is run between the two.

I actually already have extra backdrop sections painted blue, so i could make that low backdrop for pennies.

Im not saying im el cheapo, i like to be cheap if i can to save money for the other model railroad things i desperatly need.

What are your thoughts on the new yard area? Do you think im overthinking the yard?

I just got the old yard layed how i liked last night. Darn hey.
atleast i didnt glue it down.

Also- does it look like the new yard takes up more space then the old yard?

What are your thoughts on old design and new design pros and cons.

Im guessing you like the new one better since its an improvement?
I need your thoughts to help me realize things

Once again thank you for the time youve spent helping me and taking time out of your day to design these


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## joed2323

Whats the radius of the yard tracks/ main at north section?

Looking at both designs, i can still have 2 track staging even on the old design.

I just need to decide which is better for what i have to work with

Having a snowday from work today is helping since im stuck in the basement, just need to get the driveway plowed out eventually, jeeze we have alot of snow and itsstill flying..

Maybe one day in the near future you can add a second level to this design, maybe we can put logging or whatever up on second level, to free up more space and to maybe get a longer mainline run, what are your thoughts to a top deck


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## sstlaure

The innermost curve (mainline) is 24" and all the curves have a common centerpoint increasing in radius by the track spacing.

So if you went with 2.25" spacing

Mainline 24"
A/D 26.25"
Yard1 28.5"
Yard2 30.75"
Yard3 33"

The yard did get a little bigger, but I was trying to give you good straights in the yard tracks for coupling/uncoupling. You'd just be pulling/pushing cars through the curves. The curved turnouts aren't cheap, and I try to avoid them, but working in that corner it was the only way to get the yard ladder length and still have decent length yard tracks. I was trying to take some depth away from the yard along the 18' wall.

With your yard tracks together in Design #1, how much room do you have from the rearmost track to the wall? Maybe just run the staging tracks from Design #2 behind the main layout of Design #1?

I could even get rid of the backdrop on the 10' peninsula and twist the track back over itself in a flyover (bridge)

I don't have a preference either way, just trying to put a variety of options on the table to help spurn your own thoughts on what you like.

If you can get another 5x5 area that you could put a helix in you could easily add both an upper and a lower deck.

The 10' North wall.....are you up for making that longer or are you at the limits of what the committee would be tolerant of (I know the feeling.....) More length on that wall and it opens up more options.


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## joed2323

Yes and no.

This is my part of the basement the committee can have the rest 

The only slight problen is a breaker panel on the right side of my layout against wall om north side. Somehow if i add on that has to be accessible.
im up for a helix if it works out.

Your right scott, you do have me thinking now with the options you put on the table, thank you for giving me options.

So we would have to add a 5x5 for helix? Would putting helix on one of the 360 blobs eat up my space for other things we previously designed?

I have 8 inches at the tightest spot on my yard track to backdrop. I have as much as 11-15 inches in spots


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## sstlaure

You could easily build a free-standing helix 5x5, you'd start at the lowest height desired and build up from there to avoid any overhead obstructions. Only real downside to a helix is they eat up a ton of track.

Another thought I have is make this a loop to loop style track, but stack an extra loop at one end for some staging tracks. You could have the mainline climb 2" and the staging spur drop 2" to gain the vertical height needed to stack the loops. You'd just have the trains descend off the mainline onto the staging spur and into a tunnel.


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## joed2323

Im not sure what ur talking about with a loop to loop. I like the tunnel sounds cool

Could we squeeze a nolix instead of a helix to gain a top deck or not enough room?

You may have go make a quick picture of your loop to loop idea, you have me wondering....


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## sstlaure

There's not enough running length to gain the height necessary for a second level with a nolix. Figure you'd need to gain at least 16" of separation and you've got ~24 feet of run to achieve the climb. That's a 5.5% climb (16"/288")

I'll draw up the loop to loop idea tonight. With the freezing rain we're getting right now I probably won't have to work Ski Patrol duty tonight and I should have some free time.


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## tjcruiser

joed2323 said:


> Could we squeeze a *nolix* instead of a helix to gain a top deck or not enough room?


Fist time I heard that term ... had to Google it ... From Atlasrr.com forum: 

"Typically, but not necessarily, a nolix is a ramp around the perimeter of the room to get to the next level. Often where you have two distinct, flat levels, the nolix is a ramp along the wall behind the lower level that rises to the upper level."

N-O-L-I-X ... "nolix" ...

Got it! :thumbsup:

TJ


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## sstlaure

OK.....so here's a loop to loop arrangement.

Trains start in the staging loops (3 of them) in the SE corner, they enter the layout at a height of 0", stay visible for a period at that height then go into a tunnel with a vertical retaining wall along the edge of the track to separate it from the yard above.

While in the tunnel the train begins a ~2.5% climb, exits the tunnel and continues around the curve in the climb and enters the yard (at a height of 4") You need 3.5" clearance between levels minimum to clear the tallest cars like double-stack intermodals and tri-level car carriers.

You've got a nice long A/D track that the switcher can enter and get most of the cars into without fouling the mainline, and there is enough room to play with additional industry spurs, etc.

Once out of the yard, the train goes over a bridge which crosses the staging exit/entrance and goes around a loop. Again, there is room for industry spurs, etc in this area and could be a good spot for a second small town.

The 2nd pic is what the top level would look like on the 5x10 peninsula over the top of staging. You could continue the climb out of the yard and get a little more clearance between the staging/main level, but I think you'd want to build the train in the yard, then just drive it into staging and park it. You won't have a ton of hand clearance between the tops of the cars and the bottom of the upper level. 

This design does require a couple of reverse loops, but if you're going DCC, they're really easy to control/wire up. With DC power it can get old having to throw polarity switches to reverse the power once your train goes through the loop and wants to re-enter the mainline.


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## sstlaure

tjcruiser said:


> Fist time I heard that term ... had to Google it ... From Atlasrr.com forum:
> 
> "Typically, but not necessarily, a nolix is a ramp around the perimeter of the room to get to the next level. Often where you have two distinct, flat levels, the nolix is a ramp along the wall behind the lower level that rises to the upper level."
> 
> N-O-L-I-X ... "nolix" ...
> 
> Got it! :thumbsup:
> 
> TJ


To make a Nolix work you really need a TON of running length. Let's say you want to not exceed 2% grade and want 16" of separation between them (bare minimum in HO IMO), you would need 800" of run (66 feet) to achieve this.....much easier to stack that length on top of each other into a 5x5 space.


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## joed2323

Yea was hoping for a nolix cause that equals less track to buy, but thank goodness i have a bundle of flextrack coming ups tomorrow since im running low.

Scott- i like your new design but i dont like having to buy 3 curved turnouts, ouch my pocket hurts.

So as of now im leaning towards first design mainly because i have all the required turnouts and flextrack. Only if there was a way to do the new design without curved turnouts i would jump all over the new design

But maybe your next design tonight will change things.


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## sstlaure

There aren't any curved turnouts in #3 that I just put up....

Nolix or helix, you still have to cover the same length of track for an equal grade between levels. Either way if you make a second level, you are effectively doubling (or more) the amount of track needed as each level is essentially it's own layout.


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## joed2323

Another awesome design.

I guess the problem im having is visualizing it, yea i see the tracks on the paper but i cant get it in my head.

Your other 2 designs i could visualize. I dont know if its the loops throwing me off or what?

To me it just seems like i cant picture where structures will go, almost like its more track then i like im not saying it seems like spegetti noodles. I guess the tracks going over one another is what throws me a curveball.

I like the other 2 designs better.
i do like the bridge section and the hidden staging in the loop though.
i know elevation and sepetation is good for a layout then just flat. I guess i just dont understand the 3rd design well.


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## joed2323

Ok ive been looking at design 3 and now i understand it more.

I like how i dont have to pull into stagiing if i dont want to.
Its just a big long loop folded over itself
Decisions decisions


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## sstlaure

Basically anything that is a dotted line is hidden underneath hills or a ground level above it.

I didn't draw both of the levels on the 5x10 peninsula on the same drawing because the lines would be too confusing. Take the smaller 5x10 drawing and place it on top of the hidden staging.

Terrain would get hilly along the north end (those squiggly lines are the terrain sloping from the top track to the lower track. Everything between the yard/mainline and the backdrop would sit about 4" higher than the staging loops and the one mainline track running along the front edge of the 18' peninsula. The layer above the staging would be maybe 5" separation between levels, but you could put terrain, buildings, anywhere on that area. I gave it a passing siding/industry spur where you could put buildings along the inside edge and have trains pass on the outer line.

I wanted to stack the loops at either end of the layout. (Trains come from a loop, traverse the length of the layout, go through the yard, enter the other loop, turnaround and return back the way they came.)

For future expansion you can add diverging lines in a couple spots should you want to branch out.


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## sstlaure

You'd always come/go from staging, but if you only stage 2 trains in there and leave 1 track open, you've got continuous running from loop to loop with room for trains to pass at the mid-point or at the yard.


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## sstlaure

It wouldn't be that hard to make #3 a double-track mainline with no reverse loops either.


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## joed2323

Lol ok, it makes sense now. Now you have 3 designs in my head ... thanks alot


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## sstlaure

I feel bad because I know I can slice this area up a number of different ways, but it's tough to have the time to put them all down on paper. It's a great sized area you've got to work with.

All of this work has me seriously considering a side job in professional layout design.


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## joed2323

How? Unfold the loops?

Yes you definitely have talent and a skill not many people can throw together quick like you can


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## sstlaure

Where the return loops are, instead of them merging back into 1 mainline, one side (call it eastbound) would enter the loop and once the train comes around the loop it would now be on the westbound line. Run doubletrack from there all the way back to staging and do the same thing on the staging loops.

Imagine if you laid out a rubber band on a table and squeezed the middle together so there is a loop on each end and 2 thickness of rubber down the middle. Then fold the end loops around on top of each other. That's basically what this layout would be.


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> The only slight problen is a breaker panel on the right side of my layout against wall om north side. Somehow if i add on that has to be accessible.


I plan on painting the fuse panel door on my wall sky blue like the backdrop. I think to your eye it would just blend in.


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## joed2323

Finally got more lights above my layout table.

Whats up scott. Is there not a way to add a helix on one of the 360 loops? How many times would i need to loop around to gain a narrow second level maybe 1 foot wide level?

If i said i could add on to the east side what would this do for me?
Are you thinking just a helix added on east section or are you talking more mainline run?

Lol, everytime the wife comes home the layout grows in size. If i went up what could she say right? Haha atleast im not expanding outward yet just going up (,

I like plan one with the added staging tracks for continuous run and for a staging track, so i need atleast 2 tracks to do this.

There is things i like from each design that i might be able to peice a little of each into one concept.

I like plan 2 except for curved turnouts. I like how this plan seperates the main industries.

I like plan 3 also. Ah decisions decisions

Whatever design i go with i want to make sure its easily expandable so when time comes i can go this way or that way and take over the basement...

I think the right decision for now is to stay with one of these awesome designs and get the track layed. Im itching to get the track down.
Then at a later date i can add a helix and go up or down


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## sstlaure

Would you want the top level continuous running as well?

You could certainly add a helix onto either large blob at the ends of the peninsulas. Just remember, if you go up, you have to give the trains a way to get back down.

A foot wide shelf up top is totally do-able if it's a single-ended branch line. At the end of the line you'd just have a siding for the engine to move to the other end of the train. You could even run double engined and have them tail to tail so that the engine in front is always pointed the right direction. You could move your logging operation up top and have a nice branch line, then bring the lumber down to the mill. Go really hilly on the top level and add a mine while you're at it.

If you wanted the train to loop back you'd need more width than a 1ft shelf affords.

I can doodle something up with a single helix branch line if you'd like.

I'd think you'd want at least 16" vertical space between layers, which is 4 revolutions up a helix. (4"/rev) You could put up a small shelf above what you have and plop some buildings in to see how you like it.


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## joed2323

I may be wrong. But i thought. Double track mains are better suited for bigger layouts. I dont consider my layout size big compared to alot of others out there. So i dont think plan 3 with a double main would work with my size. Just my 2 cents


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## joed2323

Scott i like your idea. Exactly what i was thinking with the logging operation up top. Im not fixed on a foot wide shelf, i only said that so the bottom level is viewable. We can go wider if you feel we should.

I think we should x plan 3 from the list i like. So the next design you doodle up will be plan 3. Sorry i dont like 3. I like alot of things on 3 but i just cant see me building it, not because i cant.


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## sstlaure

Your layout.....

Ski Patrol is cancelled for tonight due to rain, so I'll try to work something up with the branch line up top and continuous running on the bottom.

I could tuck staging underneath the top shelf? Interested?

So if your bottom level is at 50", I'm thinking a 16-20" climb for the branch line (4-5 revolutions. so your upper level would be at 68-70"....is this too high?


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## joed2323

I think anything over 65-68 would be to high
For me eye level is in the 65-68 inch range
im 6 foot 2 inch tall.

Yes will want continuous on main level and top point to point.

If you have the spare time could you please try and design that idea?

The only way to get train continuous run on top level is to make another helix, i dont want 2


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## sstlaure

Put up a test shelf and see what kind of depth/height you'd want for the top level without interfering with viewing of the bottom level. It looks weird when the top level is too close to the lower one, so that's why I set my lowest level at 33" (staging).

I'm thinking the narrow top shelf could just be supported with L shaped shelf brackets, just paint them blue to match the backdrop, or mount them and cover them with a backdrop to hide them on the lower level.


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## joed2323

I already beat you to the brackets.

I was bored the other day working in the shop so i fab brackets just in case this idea came up. Im going in basement now to support a temp shelf for me to see what i like keep you posited


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## sstlaure

Okey dokey


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## joed2323

I honestly think it looks good set at around 64-67nches. It looks perfect to me.

I made a temp looking shelf 16 inches above 50. Looks perfect. It was only 10 inches wide though, we can go alittle wider


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## sstlaure

OK...To make the bottom level continuous running requires a track connecting the NE corner to the SW corner. (Like on Design #2) Would you want this to be staging as I planned in D2, or would you want a single track just connecting the ends.

My plan is to put the helix at the end of the 18' peninsula and go 12" wide on the upper shelf going down the 18' leg, across the 10' leg until it hits the other peninsula, then out onto the peninsula.

You'd have a backdrop to separate the 2 sides of the main level on the 5x10 peninsula, but I'm planning on a solid platform maybe 2' wide for the top level of that peninsula centered so that it's spaced in on both sides and doesn't impinge on the lower level viewing.


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## joed2323

Sounds good to me. I like how staging is on #2. Probably just keep staging that way unless you have better idea


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## sstlaure

OK...so main level trackwork/yard like D1, staging from D2, but add a helix at the end of the 18' wall and run a branchline around the perimeter at 16" above the main deck.


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## joed2323

I guess so hopefully it works out for all the effort you put into this.

Its been awhile now. Had my bench built awhile ago. Its just starting to get to me, i still cant make up my mind on a layout design! 

Everyone you designed so far is workable layouts
Im just starting to loose my patience, ive thought along time ago that id have my track layed and that i would be much farther then this.

It just feels like im stuck going nowhere.

Youve been nothing but absolutely helpful, if it wasnt for you scott id probably go get my chainsaw and saw this mother f-er in peices 

Im disappointed that i keep waiting for the perfect layout design to fall out of the sky.

Im thinking i just need to pick one of these great layouts and just give her, and get going.
Yeah i know whats the hurry right?


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## sstlaure

No sweat man....I'm a "saw the mother f-er" kind of guy myself (I prefer my Stihl should it come to that  )

A little extra time up front getting a plan you like will give you much more enjoyment later on. Get the basics right and the details will come with time. 

I'm going to get working on this thing.....


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## sstlaure

OK....Here's what I worked up for the main level. Blue lines are backdrops. Left tons of room for you to develop the industry spurs (2 real nice areas available on this level for industries.)










I'll start working on the upper level now.


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## joed2323

Ok, now were talking 

That is my kind that i like

I like it all scott. Not one thing for mr to cry about this time, ha.

Also, where can we stick a interchange track at?

Canadian national and escanaba and lake superior use same tracks around where i live, i want to incorporate both locos on my layout

You are a genius. Everytime you design a new one, im just blown away.

Atleast you wont need to draw anymore designs. Im more then satisfied


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## sstlaure

Here's the start of the upper level. I didn't put any tracks in because I'm not sure what you'd want. I would envision the train meandering around hills with a logging spur in one spot and I was thinking a mine on the end of the peninsula.

The shaded red area and tracks are what would be visible directly below the upper level (wanted to give you an idea of how the upper level would "fit" with the lower.


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## joed2323

Awesome. I like it all better then previous designs.

I like how the second level is, i wouldnt change nothing..

Hows the helix work? Whats outside main radius? Is the helix track still 26 going up the loop? Is it 3-4 loops?

Wonder how hard it would be to name a wye at the end of the top deck? Kind of like a interchange track for turning loco, i dont have to have a wye, its just a thought.. i can just back down helix


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> Ok, now were talking
> 
> That is my kind that i like
> 
> I like it all scott. Not one thing for mr to cry about this time, ha.
> 
> Also, where can we stick a interchange track at?
> 
> Canadian national and escanaba and lake superior use same tracks around where i live, i want to incorporate both locos on my layout
> 
> You are a genius. Everytime you design a new one, im just blown away.
> 
> Atleast you wont need to draw anymore designs. Im more then satisfied


Great....glad to hear it. Frankly this is one of my favorite parts of the layout process. I've got stacks of designs I've drawn up for all kinds of rooms (I haven't finished my basement yet, but have permission from the committee to basically take the whole thing over so long as I leave room for our storage needs.)

These things need to evolve and I've found (just like you did) that you like parts of each design, which triggers other ideas on how to combine the different "elements" you want to have within the layout.

Now....You'll notice that I curved the front edge of the layout rather than having a 45 degree corner at the West wall (18') 5x5 blob. I did this to allow a nice smooth curve, tight to the front edge, for the mainline while still allowing the A/D track to start before the corner (important for that track to be as long as possible) 

Easiest way to make this modification to your benchwork would be to screw in some 1x4 blocks onto the faces of the inside corners where it transitions from the blob to the west wall (this will create surfaces for a piece of plyboard to be screwed down.) Make a template for the curve out of cardboard, then just trace it onto the plyboard and cut with a jigsaw. If you need a pic of what I'm talking about I did this in one spot on my layout and can get a close-up if needed.

Improvements:

I wouldn't do anything to the lower level other than add detail to the industrial spurs (how many tracks, how you want to switch them, etc.)
You can easily add a little depth to the upper level benchwork (probably wouldn't go over 16")
You could also add width to the branchline peninsula (more room for the mine to have multiple tracks. I'm thinking the New River Mining kit by Walther's - BTW it's on sale right now for $33) http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3017 
I could probably put a wye in the NE corner of the upper level if you didn't want to do the run-around move I described earlier.


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> Awesome. I like it all better then previous designs.
> 
> I like how the second level is, i wouldnt change nothing..
> 
> Hows the helix work? Whats outside main radius? Is the helix track still 26 going up the loop? Is it 3-4 loops?
> 
> Wonder how hard it would be to name a wye at the end of the top deck? Kind of like a interchange track for turning loco, i dont have to have a wye, its just a thought.. i can just back down helix


That's funny, as I was typing suggesting a wye you were typing the same thing.


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## sstlaure

Radius of the track going around the helix is as big as you can make it (28-9" maybe), the helix is a little better than 24", although I'd go as big as you can while maintaining clearance for the outer track (You could probably get 26" out of it)

Trains going to the helix would need to be travelling in the clockwise rotation. (If you bring freight in from the other direction and want it to go up the helix, drop it in the yard and build a separate local train to run it up the hill) There is a turnout right at the backdrop (use a double track tunnel portal), if you take the left track you run back to staging, take the right track and you head up the helix.

You're looking at either 3.5 or 4.5 revolutions through the helix (the 1/2 is because you enter the helix towards the front of the benchwork, but exit at the backdrop.) Each revolution is 4", so you're either looking at 14" or 18" of climb. With a 24" radius you're looking at a grade of 2.65%, get it up to 26" radius and it drops to 2.45%.


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## sstlaure

OK....so I put some track down on the upper level and came up with a wye.

You ready to get building????


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## joed2323

Scott i cant thank you enough, the design is flawless in my eyes.
It doesnt look like spegetti noodles either 

Can you shoot me a picture of what your talking about for the bench work with the 1x4 and plywood?

If all i gotta do is make the section off the blob rounded instead of corners, i understand.

I wont be second guessing myself anymore, i have a awesome design to build up thanks to you, the design is perfect.

Where should i stick a interchange at?


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## sstlaure

I'll take a picture of that part of by benchwork when I get home.

As far as an interchange, the easiest thing to do would be to pretend that the interchange is off-layout and use your staging for each road (use the west wall staging tracks for CN and the North wall ones for E&LS) 

I meant to draw in a cross-over about halfway through the staging tracks to essentially give you 4 staging tracks (2 sets of 2), but in reality, you could only have 2 of the 4 tracks occupied if you wanted to run continuous.


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## joed2323

How many sections of flex is needed for the helix? Im guessing 20-25? 75 feet of track?


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> How many sections of flex is needed for the helix? Im guessing 20-25? 75 feet of track?


Each 26" radius 360 degree loop would be 163.4" (13.6ft) of track. If you go with 3.5 loops, that's 571.9" - about 48 feet.


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## sstlaure

I'd love to here some feedback from other members on this layout design.


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## mr_x_ite_ment

Scott...it looks like you have a good handle on what Joe wants to do. I haven't really followed the thread all that closely, but what I see looks good. Having two levels really will make the train seem like it is going somewhere, and doubles what would otherwise be a relatively small space. I can't comment a lot on the helix, as I haven't had any experience with one, but I know you have and I would trust your judgment. It will be fun to see your ideas come to life through Joe's work! 

Chad


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## joed2323

Kewl . So going with 3 loops i will have a grade of 2.45% having 3 loops?
And it would bump up to 2.65% with. 24 degree radius?

Those grades are manageable. I shouldnt have any problems making it up the grade.

Whats the easiest way to make the curves scott? I have templates already made.
Just trace them out on some plywood?

Also how do i figure out how to block each loop up correctly?
I have a rough idea on how to get up to 14 or 18 inches but im not sure if i will affect the grade.

So i just gotta make sure that each loop end goes up 4 inches, then i can go back down and shim up below each 4 inches so i dont throw the grade off?


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## sstlaure

OK....So here's how I made my helix.

The way I have you drawn up and with your current benchwork, you're going to want open access to the train from the outside of the helix (no outer obstructions.)

Make a roadbed surface that is 5" wide with the centerline being your desired radius. I use a yardstick with a hole in one end then simply hold a Sharpie permanent marker on the radius I want and draw it. I'd draw the inner radius (23.5), the middle (26) and the outer (28.5) and make as large of an arc as you can in 1 piece on a sheet of 4x8 plywood.

You can see in this pic my bottom loop which will set the grade of the entire helix.










You'll need to gain 4" with each revolution, so put blocks, spaced 90 degrees apart around the circle at 1", 2" & 3" height with the very start of the helix set at 0 (benchwork level) This will allow the lower ramp to gain 1" every 90 degrees in a level manner. (This is using 1/2" thick plyboard, it's important to not use anything thicker than 1/2" inside the helix and I'll show you why.)

The clearance inside the helix will be set by 1x4 wood blocks cut to approximately 5" long (exact length doesn't matter, this is a great use for scraps) You use the dimensional width of the wood (3.5") to use as a vertical spacer for the layers. You will always have 3.5" spacing wood to wood throughout the helix without having to make precise cuts. 

Here's a pic of mine after I got through the 3rd rotation. You just space the blocks about every 12-15" or so. Where you have 2 pieces of plywood subroadbed that need to be joined, just have the block span the gap between the pieces.



















The 2nd pic shows clearance for the tallest cars (doublestack intermodals and tri-level car carriers.)

Make sure to pre-drill your holes and I use deck screws (no glue) I wanted access from the inside because my helix is buried under a mountain, so I put my blocks on the outside edge to leave the inside open. For you, I'd put the blocks on the inside edge to leave the outside open. Then to prevent trains from falling off the track I made 1.5" tall edge guards out of 1/8" thick hardboard that I just screwed into the edge of the plyboard (again...pre-drill the holes) 

You can see the edge guards on the lower track in this pic.


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## sstlaure

Oh yeah....the helix would be 1 big block. Just make sure to lay the cork, track and do the wiring AS you are building the helix. Once a layer is over another, it's very difficult to work with placing track, drilling holes, etc. so work from the bottom up.

In most benchwork, your wiring runs underneath the sub-roadbed, but in a helix you need the vertical clearance. I'd just keep the wires running visibly alongside the track next to the cork rather than route it underneath the roadbed. You can see the wires running alongside the track in the helix in this pic. If you want both wires on 1 side of the track, just remove the little nibs that connect the ties together to create a small channel for the wire to pass from one side of the track to the other under the rails.


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> Can you shoot me a picture of what your talking about for the bench work with the 1x4 and plywood?
> 
> If all i gotta do is make the section off the blob rounded instead of corners, i understand.


Here's a pic below the benchwork showing how I create the smooth inside corners. In your case you'd put (2) 1x4 blocks, one on either side to give the inner corner filler something to screw down into. When you're ready to finish off the benchwork, you just attach 1/8" hardboard along the front edge of the layout by screwing it into the plyboard.


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## mr_x_ite_ment

Scott, that is a very good tutorial on building a helix! You did a very neat job on yours! I would love to give it a whirl sometime to build one, but I doubt I could make one as nice as yours!

Chad


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## sstlaure

They're really not that hard. I was surprised how fast/smooth it went together once I figured out how to build it.

My next one will be 4 tracks wide.......That should be fun.


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## joed2323

Scott thats excellent advice, thank you very much for all the explanations with pictures, that will come in very handy.
Im excited now for building the helix. Do i dont need access to inside of helix? I can do what i need to do from outside like you suggested.

Should i have to main level built and track etc finished before i add the top level?
Should i have the top level up before the helix or get helix built then add top level?

Good the helix is going to use less flextrack then i originally thought.

Cant wait to get started so i can hook up my nce power cab and get running trains, but i know thats awhile before that can happen.

Whats the best way to support the top level on the peninsula? I know we discussed using brackets for top level.


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## sstlaure

I would frame up the peninsula divider just like you would a wall (perimeter framed, then stringers @ 16" on center vertically to provide stiffness, I'd frame the perimeter with 2x2, then use 2x4 for the stringers, make it so that the "wall" is 1.5" thick) Screw this frame down into the main level, then also attach it vertically at the wall.
You can then screw your L-shaped shelf brackets on either side of 2x4's in the framework creating a T-support for the upper deck.

I'd build the main level, then the helix, then the upper level. That way you will just dictate the final height of the upper deck by wherever the helix ends up rather than trying to fiddle with shimming the helix up or down to fit between the levels.

You want to have access to the tracks inside the helix in case anything derails or you need to do maintenance. I don't think it matters whether it's inside or outside so long as you have access. You already had decking down on you main level so I figured on outside access.


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## joed2323

Awesome advice on supporting upper deck at peninsula.

Atleast im not worried about running into road blocks, you pretty much smoothed out all rough edges i had.

Hey quick question of subject. What kind of layout does your father have? It must be a monster just like yours?

Also, could i get half sheets of plywood for making radius for helix or will i need a full sheets to do this


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## sstlaure

HA....Here's the funny part. He's been collecting HO Scale trains for easily 40 years, has hundreds of cars and dozens of engines, shelves FILLED with kits........

.....but the only layout he has is a 4' diameter test circle. (At home anyway.)

He mainly plays at the Lansing Model RR Club.




As for the helix. A full sheet will yield you almost a 270 degree swing around a single loop. I personally wanted to minimize the number of joints that occurred within the helix, so I used 3 full sheets and cut my biggest possible arc out of them getting the 2.5 turns I needed for my climb. I draw the biggest arc first (28.5" radius) and make it as long of an arc as possible.

You can get many arcs out of a single piece of plyboard, but the length of the section you get will get progressively shorter and you'll have more joints to deal with.


Oh yeah....you've got kids, right? I'd cut access into the inside of the helix....It's one of my boys favorite places to watch the trains.


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## joed2323

Can i get 3 1/2 loops out of one sheet or do i need two


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## sstlaure

You'll need at least 2 sheets - maybe 3. Figure you'll get 1.5 revs in the first 2 arcs, then you're going to be splicing together a bunch of <90 degree arcs to get the rest. You do end up with a fair bit of scrap.


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## joed2323

Yes my kids would like to be in the middle of the helix too.

How high does the fake backdrop need to be that hides staging? Just as tall as my tallest train ? Trying to figure out if i have enough backdrop material..

Should i just use plwood for the decking on top level like i used for main level? Or should i put the top level together using pine 1x4 l girder style?

Making another run to home depot


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## sstlaure

If you use 1x4 girder, you're adding thickness to the top level which will either:
1) reduce the spacing between levels or
2) make the top level higher

If you don't want a ton of rivers (i.e. features that are below grade level), etc on the top level, you can get away with simple plyboard. Even with plyboard on the top, you can still do some below grade features with a couple tricks I've learned 

I'd just do plyboard shelving and brackets for the top level.

As far as staging, you could have it visible if you want to, or if you want it to blend in, put a train at the farthest back location, then view it at your typical depth (standing at the benchwork), so long as the top goes out of view, you're good. If both the lower and rearmost backdrops are painted the same color, your eye probably won't even see the gap. I'd think 6-8" would be high enough to serve as an effective viewblock as the strip for staging is drawn at 6" wide.


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## sstlaure

How thick is the plyboard you have down already on your base benchwork? 

You could start your helix through the first revolution by drawing the pattern onto that plyboard and cutting it out with a jigsaw (assuming it's thin enough to flex up once cut. Then just shim it up to height for that start ramp and screw in risers underneath the roadbed.


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## joed2323

Half inch. 
What did you use on sides of ur helix curves, hardboard?


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## sstlaure

Perfect. I'd just the starting grade for the helix out of what you've got on the table. Mark it, trace it on and drill holes at the corners, cut out the shape with a jigsaw and pop that piece up (keep the "end" of that loop square when you cut it off (End cut of each section should be done in the direction of the centerpoint of the radius of the curve.)

All of my fascias and guards are 1/8" thick hardboard cut into 1.5" tall strips. Use smooth side out (should paint up nice and not really absorb the paint I plan on applying)


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## joed2323

Let me get this straight.

Im cutting a 5 inch peice on my table where the helix will start.
pulling it up a 1/2 inch so then i can take the 1/2 plywood loop i cut out from sheet of ply abd butt it up against the peice i pryed up from layout table to make a flush rise starting from the layout table? Hope that makes sense to u


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## sstlaure

No....you're cutting almost a full 360 degree strip 5" wide out of the plyboard that is on your layout, cutting it only on 3 sides. (inside radius, outside radius, and the top end of the curve) From where the helix will start it's climb, you'll then start to lift this strip up off of the base height by 1" every 90 degrees.


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## joed2323

Let me get this straight.

Im cutting a 5 inch peice on my table where the helix will start.
pulling it up a 1/2 inch so then i can take the 1/2 plywood loop i cut out from sheet of ply abd butt it up against the peice i pryed up from layout table to make a flush rise starting from the layout table? Hope that makes sense to u

What do you mean end cut of each section to the centerpoint of the curve, im lost here?


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## sstlaure

You will be butting these radius pieces against each other to make a continuous looping curve. To make sure the radius stays constant, you cut the ends of each piece flat....i.e. across the 5" width perpendicular to the edge of the curve. (Imagine drawing a line from the centerpoint of the 26" radius outwards, the line would cross the roadbed straight across the track.)


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## sstlaure

Does this help?










Basically you're just cutting a ramp out of the wood you have in place and leaving everything else, but you leave the ramp connected at the bottom end to create a nice smooth transition into the grade


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## mr_x_ite_ment

Scott, you are explaining very well how to make a helix...I am tempted to try one myself. The way you describe it makes it seem pretty easy! I realize there would be a fair amount of waste, but the end product might be worth it. Again, I really like the one you made!

Chad


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## joed2323

You are the master  ive learned so much you its crazy
I owe you alot for all the time you put into this project and me


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## sstlaure

No sweat.....out of curiosity (and not that I'm looking for payment.) What do you think you'd be willing to pay for the kinds of services rendered. (Basic designwork and a little tech support.)

I'm trying to come up with a business model for custom RR stuff. (layout design, custom modelling, etc.) I'm trying to figure out what the market may bear.


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## joed2323

I think maybe a flat rate to start out included a layout design to a persons
Liking. Then somehow charge per additional information
Lol. Darn i thought this was free website... shoot


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## sstlaure

You can pay me by getting your layout up and running so I can see the fruits of my labor.


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## joed2323

Thats a promise.

I plan to work hard on it this weekend. I want to stay up late and get up early and work on layout getting trackwork done on main level


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## sstlaure

My overall recommendation is to get the main level up and running first, then branch upwards to the second level. (Put the helix in-place and connected to the rest of the layout, but get your continuous running loop going so you can have some fun with this thing.)

It's really easy to get wrapped up in the building of something, only to lose interest because it's all work and no fun.


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## joed2323

I agree with getting the main level up and running first.

Also you said i could leave the staging open or visible, wouldnt that be hard to make believeable not seeing trains (disappear)

If i do make hidden, how do you suggest i fasten or secure low backdrop to layout or wall?

Also, how would u go about making the scene divider, youve suggested how, i underattand that part. But am i suppose to leave the divider alone until i get helix built so then i know how tall to make the divider on peninsula to set the height for top level?

Was thinking of doing the divider/ framed up 2x2s today but i think i have to wait to get helix built so i know how high to make the divider.

Im unsure about how to go about the hidden backdrop and divider on peninsula.


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## sstlaure

I'd wait on the peninsula divider until you've got the 2nd level height set.

For the low backdrop, you could cut slots into your plyboard and just have tabs along the bottom of the backdrop board (just cut the shapes of the tab when you cut the hardboard.) The backdrop tabs would sit into the slots and it would be easily removeable. Plant trees and put buildings in front of it to disguise the edge.


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## joed2323

How important is it to have a yard lead? Because im banging my head with this.

I can only push cars into the yard tracks. Yes i have a a/d track but i still have to either add a crossover or two so maybe i can pull a whole train into one yard track and have the loco escape.

Do you think its a big deal that i would have to use part of main to pull cars out of yard tracks and assemble trains onto a/d track?

I just dont want people to say (hey your fowling your mainline) i know that 

Nevermind, id only fowl the main for a few seconds id need be and let a train 
Pass if need be. (Yard limit rules)


Btw i managed to squeeze a turnout to make a lead but then i end up with short yard tracks so forget that idea.


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## sstlaure

I classify cars on the yard tracks (stub ended), then once I have a train made up, I pull it out onto the mainline then into the A/D track. The engine then comes out of the service area (fuel, sand, etc) attaches itself to the proper end of the train and departs.


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## joed2323

ok makes sense, i dont really need a yard lead anyway, only way to do this would be to make it start on the peninsula and travel over to west section, but my layout will only really be used by me or maybe someone else, so its not like i will be in the way of someone else.

i also added the slight curve coming off the 360 bench work, this curve did alot for me scott, thanks for that advice
btw- i have my outer loop set at 28 degree radius on west section, so i think i can make the helix loops 26 radius.
how much of a space do i need between the outer loop and the inside helix loops? i have to cut 5inch width, so do i need to leave like a inch between the 28 radius or how much of a gap is needed?


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## sstlaure

The 26" radius should be going up the ramp into the helix and the other should be going around the outside of the helix staying at the 0" elevation of the base benchwork.

The 26" should go right up the middle of the 5" strip.

Can you take and post a pic of what you're working on?


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## joed2323

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3483-1330890442253.jpg
looking south into the helix area
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3231-1330890428116.jpg
looking north at yard tracks
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2985-1330890416669.jpg
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2614-1330890455752.jpg
got the curve in
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-1931-1330890465133.jpg
the outer loop is 28, then the inside track will eventually turn into helix, just got to figure out how much space to leave between outside loop??
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-2172-1330890477045.jpg
helix area/outside mainline
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3412-1330890490574.jpg
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/joed2323/photobucket-3117-1330890541935.jpg

i wanted 3 tracks for pikestuff engine garage area, 2 going into garage, and one aux track, thats why there is 3
the a/d track looks short, its just a tad under 7 feet long
there is previous road bed thats getting ripped up near the wall, dont mind that, i changed alot around once i decided i was going with a helix
Im cutting the middle out where helix goes, i like how you had yours open, gotta have room for the kids to watch the trains climb up


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## joed2323

only thing i was worried about is where the inside track goes off that turnout headed to start of helix, that turnout has to be that far down, or i end up with a shorter a/d track, its shorter then id like already


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## sstlaure

I don't think the location of that turnout is a problem. You could gain a little length on that A/D if you swap in #4's at each end.

So the centerline of the outer radius track is 28"? If you give yourself 1.25" clearance from the centerline I'd think you would be fine (1.5" would for sure be fine)

You can still run the helix track more toward the outboard edge to keep the radius nice and large.

Looks like you set up the Pikestuff engine house just like I did.


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## joed2323

Correct. Outside track is set on 28.

I was thinking once i climbed up in height i could loop over the outside track to gain a little more radius? Dont know if this would effect the grade percentage

Engine house area, needs 3 tracks to be effective imop. I wanted to use the pikestuff (the shop) but i think it may look too tight in that area

Im not sure if how i setup the diesel service tracks coming off the last turnout in yard was the right way to do this but i really didnt have too much room like i once thought i had
I want a diesel fueling facility and that last track would work good for this im thinking?


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## sstlaure

joed2323 said:


> Correct. Outside track is set on 28.
> 
> I was thinking once i climbed up in height i could loop over the outside track to gain a little more radius? Dont know if this would effect the grade percentage


That's a great idea....wish I had thought of it! Just make it a nice smooth transition to the larger curve and keep using the 3.5" dimension of the spacers. By going with the bigger radius you'll lessen the grade and make it more reliable.



joed2323 said:


> Engine house area, needs 3 tracks to be effective imop. I wanted to use the pikestuff (the shop) but i think it may look too tight in that area
> 
> Im not sure if how i setup the diesel service tracks coming off the last turnout in yard was the right way to do this but i really didnt have too much room like i once thought i had
> I want a diesel fueling facility and that last track would work good for this im thinking?


Here's a pic of mine. I ran the tracks out the back of the shop and will have an industrial crane across the 2 tracks. (for lifting of locomotives for service.) Out the front of the shop I'm going to have a small fueling facility and sanding towers. I'm kit-bashing the fuel/sanding racks from a kit to make them very small single station units that can serve multiple tracks


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## joed2323

Wow. Scott everytime i look at your layout it inspires me.
if i can make my layout half as good as yours i will be happy.b
One day i can see your layout in a modelrailroader magazine!!

What do you have track length wise in back of your engine garage? Im guessing around a foot.

Im excited to get my trackwork done on peninsula in the next day or so hopefully.
Want to get my track runnable so i can get started on my helix and move on up 

I hoping i can squezze plywood in my old ladies trailblazer? It may have to hang out a bit, cold ride home if that happens._

I almost picked up 4x4 Sheets, can fit that no problem. Had 3 sheets worth of 4x4 ply ready to purchase the other day but ended up walking out of menards. All i could think about was what you said of having alot of splices.

Hopefully its not snowing this week to allow me to get full sheets of 1/2 ply.

One more thing- 1/4 inch plywood is too small correct?
I have enuf 1/4 plywood to to a helix and then some but figured its to narrow?


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## joed2323

Wow. Scott everytime i look at your layout it inspires me.
if i can make my layout half as good as yours i will be happy.b
One day i can see your layout in a modelrailroader magazine!!

What do you have track length wise in back of your engine garage? Im guessing around a foot.

Im excited to get my trackwork done on peninsula in the next day or so hopefully.
Want to get my track runnable so i can get started on my helix and move on up 

I hoping i can squezze plywood in my old ladies trailblazer? It may have to hang out a bit, cold ride home if that happens._

I almost picked up 4x4 Sheets, can fit that no problem. Had 3 sheets worth of 4x4 ply ready to purchase the other day but ended up walking out of menards. All i could think about was what you said of having alot of splices.

Hopefully its not snowing this week to allow me to get full sheets of 1/2 ply.

One more thing- 1/4 inch plywood is too small correct?
I have enuf 1/4 plywood to to a helix and then some but figured its to narrow?


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## sstlaure

I'd stick with the 1/2" ply for the helix. You don't want it warping up on you.

Tracks behind the shop were just long enough for my SD60i to clear the building before hitting the bumper. About a foot would be close.

You really need the 4x8 to get the most arc. Given that you've got a 28" R track around the outside of the helix, that the outermost arc of the ramp would be 26.5"R which would be 53" wide. To draw that arc you have to make a centerpoint off the side of the 8' length of the board and trace it onto the wood. (just use a 12x12 piece of plyboard held under your knee to give you somewhere to push in a thumbtack to anchor the yard stick) 

Actually, the plyboard on your current benchwork should get you back to where you can go with the larger radius and begin to loop the track over the outer track. So if the centerline is 28", the outer radius to cut would be 30.5 or 61" diameter. (check the depth of your blob on the end of the 18' length, you don't want the outer diameter of the helix to exceed the depth of the table and hang out over the end.

You can see on a 48"x96" sheet of ply, you need the 96 dimension to maximize the arc you can get in one piece.


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## joed2323

I see. Full sheets of plywood are only around 6-8 bucks anyway for osb plywood, can i get osb to work for helix roadbed, i see you didnt use osb, but one side of the osb is smooth and flat.

So you really thinking climbing in height maybe halfway through first loop whetever i can get enough clearance that looping over outside mainline is a good idea?

Either way i will have big enough radius where i do not need to worry about the grade. Do you really think there is that big of a difference from say 25-26 to 28 degrees


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## sstlaure

It's a great idea.....Any decrease in the grade will help you, especially on a curve. At those radii, you won't have any problem gaining enough height, just use the 1x4 on their side to set the spacing between the layers and you'll be fine. You're not changing the spacing to achieve this, you're just opening up the radius to make the helix travel from the start of the 2nd loop up at 28" centerline vs 25 or 26". At 28" radius, the grade drops to 2.27% vs 2.45% for the 26" or 2.65% for the 24".

If I had the room, I'd make it as big as possible.


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## joed2323

Scott you prefer aleens tacky glue for gluing track down or caulk?
I have both readily available, not sure what one to go with, both seem like they are commonly used

Im moving right along with my track work, almost finished with the peninsula track work. Just trying to figure out if i can get another turnout here and there besides the two spurs on peninsula.?

Quick question, sidings and spurs are always lower then mainline track height right? I beleive so, gonna gave to make trip to Lhs to get more roadbed eventually.

I know we discussed getting lower level running first but i have a itch to get the helix going might have to start that this weekend

Its just fun building things and seeing the trackwork evolve


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## sstlaure

You're right, they're used interchangably. I've found with the Alene's that if I need to tear something up I can re-use the cork roadbed by hitting it with some 40 grit sandpaper to knock the dried up glue off of the top/bottom surface. Not sure if caulk would be the same way.

Caulk is probably quicker as it would set fairly fast.


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## joed2323

Scott how many 1x4s did you end up using on your helix?

Im thinkin 4 4x8 osb plywood should be plenty since i believe i can get a full 360 loop from one sheet.
Can i use osb plywood, since its cheaper then the plywood sheeting that you used on your helix??

Im going lumber shoppn after work so im trying to get everything i may need with one trip!


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## sstlaure

Hard to say how many 1x4's I used. The base benchwork was already built (one of the (4) modular sections from my old layout) and I simply modified it to get the hole up the middle. With as much as I was building, I just picked up a dozen of them and had them in a pile for when I needed them. 

I've got 5-6" pieces spaced about 15" apart around the outside perimeter, so figure I used 11 pieces for each loop (168" per revolution/15"), so each revolution used about 6' of 1x4 for the spacers.

My local HD & Lowes accept lumber that hasn't been used, so I always buy a little more than necessary and just make sure to save the receipts should I need to bring a handful back.

4 sheets should be enough.

This is approximately how you would lay out the curves to maximize the material use and minimize joints within the helix. Your centerpoint for the big piece will be well off the edge of the plyboard.


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## joed2323

scott- im all setup to start cutting arcs in my plywood i have purchased, the demon in me couldnt wait to finish bottom level.  im almost there for the bottom level, just gotta wire and glue track down. 

me and my son hooked up my nce power cab to a little test track and got out my canadian national sd70 w/sound running the other night. i was grinning from ear to ear  my son would not leave the horn button alone, i can see it now he will be loving that horn button, hearing that train run gave me some motivation boost to get the track wired on bottom level 

i believe you suggested i cut my arcs 5 inch wide? that seems a bit wide no? i thought you cut 4 inch wide arcs for your helix? 

is there a reason behind making wide arcs? only reason i can see is that it gives the track some wiggle room for me to adjust the radius a tad if need be??? or if a car derails it doesnt take a plunge ??
i guess 5 inches will give me more room for bracing versus 4 inches


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## sstlaure

I barely had enough room for the bracing with 4" and had to limit my bracing to only on the outside radius and I ran my track a little to the inside to get enough clearance. 

If I had it to do over again I would go 5" wide to leave room on either side of the roadbed for any bracing between sections needed and allow me to run the track right up the middle. 

You got DCC running before I did....congrats. Mine is still all packed in boxes.


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