# Catenary how-to?



## Rock022

Hello everyone. 

Is there a how-to, working with catenary? I have zero knowledge about this system, or how I would build it. I have seen the poles for it online, that is all I know.

The train I have runs without the catenary. I am just looking for a how to build the catenary system. Video would be preferred.

God Bless.


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## DonR

Maybe you can get some help from this link:

http://www.modelmemories.com/jan99mrreview.htm

It should be fairly simple to build a catenary for
pantographs. They simply rub along the bottom of
the 'wire'. You would not need the hardware used
for streetcar pole type overhead where the pole must
follow through frogs similar to flangeways in turnouts.

Shop around on line and you'll find several sources for
the right 'wire' to use. One or two of our members
are into electric traction. Maybe they could guide you
to the current sources.

I faked insulators using 'Indian' beads

Don


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## Rock022

Thank you Don. That is a great start, lots of great info.


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## CTValleyRR

You might consider just installing the towers without the actual wire itself. That's an incredibly fiddly process that may well end up being an exercise in frustration.


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## Rock022

I can see how that can happen. I hope that I can manage, whenever I try to do it.


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## Cycleops

Sommerfeldt are the acknowledged experts in catenary systems. They have a US distributor, you might their site interesting: http://www.tee-usa.com/store/sommerfeldt-catalog.html
I assume you're working in DC.
Regarding CTVs point about the wires, I've seen fine stretch cotton type material used for that.


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## Rock022

Awesome Cycleops. My first train is a Swiss train, and that site has Swiss Catenary system. 

The train I got is a SBB CFF FFS.


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## Gramps

Rock022 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Is there a how-to, working with catenary? I have zero knowledge about this system, or how I would build it. I have seen the poles for it online, that is all I know.
> 
> The train I have runs without the catenary. I am just looking for a how to build the catenary system. Video would be preferred.
> 
> God Bless.


It's not clear to me if you are looking to just model the catenary or actually want to run the loco from it, which can be done but will be more involved.


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## J.C.

tichy has a good looking insulator for a not bad price #8158 also have it in bulk.


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## Rock022

Gramps said:


> It's not clear to me if you are looking to just model the catenary or actually want to run the loco from it, which can be done but will be more involved.


I could not find the right words Gramps, thanks for clearing that. I want to model Catenary. The loco does not need a functioning catenary.


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## Cycleops

You might be interested in this layout called 'Margaaz' a Swiss layout in HOm. It featured in the August 2011 edition of Continental Modeller from Peco Publications. Its available in digital format on line. Here's a couple of pics from it, the catenary is from Sommerfeldt.

You need a crocodile on that layout of yours!


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## Rock022

Yes. That is sort of how I imagine it. But I do not know how to find that specific publication.


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## Chet

Twenty plus years ago I helped a friend who modeled the Mountain Division of the Milwaukee Road. It was quite an undertaking. We made matching jigs for the catenary poles which were used over a six month period to assemble over 350 poles. The Milwaukee Road catenary are extremely simple compared to what the Penny or New Haven used. 

A few months later, the wife and I took a trip to my friends place to start installing the poled and catenary. His layout occupied a good portion of a 2,000 sq ft basement. It took a couple of days just to install the poles and then another couple of days to install the catenary. We did also have another model railroader helping us. 

After five very full days of work we finally got all of the catenary installed and operational. There was no DCC back then and he did have his scratch built Boc Cabs and Brass Little Joes powered by the catenary and could also run diesels on the rails at the same time. 

His electric locomotives had an internal switch that he used to take power from the catenary or from the rails. It was an outstanding layout to watch operate. He, like I couldn't get over watching electric locomotives run with the pantographs up and without catenary. 

When I was a kid, I spent many hours riding with some of my relatives in box cabs and Little Joes on the Milwaukee road and it was great to see my friends layout with the overhead wire. Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago.


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## Rock022

Wow Chet, That must be a very impressive layout. Do you have pics?


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## Chet

Rock022 said:


> Wow Chet, That must be a very impressive layout. Do you have pics?


I do have some color prints, somewhere. I would love to scan and post them. When I find them, I will post.


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## DonR

Rock

Give it a try. Take pride in having what is fairly
rare her in the US now, an operating catenary
railroad. You wouldn't have to do your whole layout,
but perhaps only a single loop. 

Once you get your support stable, hanging the wire
should not be that difficult. Then raise the panto and
watch it spark as the train draws from the wire.

If I could make an operating streetcar system work using
trolley poles going thru overhead frogs you should
be able to get a comparatively simple catenary going.

Don


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## Cycleops

Rock022 said:


> Yes. That is sort of how I imagine it. But I do not know how to find that specific publication.


http://www.pecopublications.co.uk/continental-modeller.html
If you're having trouble pm me and I'll chop it out of my mag and mail it to you. Its a lovely layout.

If you want the catenary to be working you'll have to do it on DC, its not recommenced in DCC as I think you get surges as the pick up momentarily loses and makes contact which will smoke the decoder.


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## traction fan

*Making Catenary*



Rock022 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Is there a how-to, working with catenary? I have zero knowledge about this system, or how I would build it. I have seen the poles for it online, that is all I know.
> 
> The train I have runs without the catenary. I am just looking for a how to build the catenary system. Video would be preferred.
> 
> God Bless.


 Rock022;

I model a small bit of the Milwaukee Road's coast division. My little section runs from Seattle to Hyak, Washington. The Milwaukee had hundreds of miles of catenary on their Rocky Mountain, and Coast, divisions. They built their electrification system in the early twentieth century. It lasted until the 1970s. 
My model railroad is N-scale, and I make my own catenary from phosphor/bronze wire, using simple jigs consisting of wood planks with Atlas track nails, and a couple of screws in them. I make it because, as far as I know, Milwaukee style catenary is not commercially available in N-scale. What little catenary is sold commercially is mostly European prototype, HO-scale, and quite expensive when you add up all the pieces needed for any significant length of track. I am posting below the only photo I presently have of my catenary. It's a section atop "Garrison Creek" trestle on my layout. The trestle is typical of many large steel trestles the Milwaukee built for their Pacific extension. In the photo the catenary is loose because it's not attached and tensioned properly. It doesn't look its best! This morning I took more photos of my model catenary under construction, the wire I use, and the wood jig I use to string the wire into the proper shape to be soldered into a panel of catenary. This afternoon I took photos of our local light rail system, "The San Diego Trolley". It uses cars and catenary equipment made in Germany, by Siemens Corp. There are no U.S. makers of electric trolley cars anymore. The Siemens catenary is similar to that used in Europe. and several other American cities. I think, from reading through this thread, that this may be closer to what you want than my Milwaukee stuff. Regardless, I'm happy to welcome another electric railroad enthusiast to the forum. Making your own catenary, whether it is used to run the trains or not, Isn't tremendously difficult. It simply takes lots of time and patience. Before I went over to DCC, I had planned to actually have the catenary "live" where It could operate the electric helper locomotives. Since DCC lets me control each loco separately, "live overhead wire is no longer necessary. I also had the same concern Cycleops mentioned about possible higher current sparks from DCC. Then another forum member posted that he had been using live overhead, with DCC, successfully for some time. He was doing HO-scale, though, and did not reveal what type/size wire he was using. My concern centered on potential damage to the tiny wire I was using. I didn't think about decoder damage. Thanks Cycleops! This illustrates one of the great advantages of this forum. You get the collective wisdom of many people. I was, at that pre-DCC time, using .006" steel music wire. That does not solder well, so I tried copper wire. It solders just fine, but is too weak physically for catenary use. Someone on here suggested Phosphor/bronze wire. I'd heard of it, it's been used by trolley modelers for years, but I didn't know where to get it. Amazon.com to the rescue! The.013" P/B wire I bought there is both easy to solder, and strong. When I have gotten the other photos on my computer, I'll post them. In the meantime, here's the one I have. 

Welcome fellow traction modeler!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan

*Making Catenary*



Rock022 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Is there a how-to, working with catenary? I have zero knowledge about this system, or how I would build it. I have seen the poles for it online, that is all I know.
> 
> The train I have runs without the catenary. I am just looking for a how to build the catenary system. Video would be preferred.
> 
> God Bless.


 Rock022;

I model a small bit of the Milwaukee Road's coast division. My little section runs from Seattle to Hyak, Washington. The Milwaukee had hundreds of miles of catenary on their Rocky Mountain, and Coast divisions. They built their electrification system in the early twentieth century. It lasted until the 1970s. 
My model railroad is N-scale, and I make my own catenary from phosphor/bronze wire, using simple jigs consisting of wood planks with Atlas track nails, and a couple of screws in them. I make it because, as far as I know, Milwaukee style catenary is not commercially available in N-scale. What little catenary is sold commercially is mostly European prototype, HO-scale, and quite expensive when you add up all the pieces needed for any significant length of track. I am posting below the only photo I presently have of my catenary. It's a section atop "Garrison Creek" trestle on my layout. The trestle is typical of many large steel trestles the Milwaukee built for their Pacific extension. In the photo the catenary is loose because it's not attached and tensioned properly. It doesn't look its best! This morning I took more photos of my model catenary under construction, the wire I use, and the wood jig I use to string the wire into the proper shape to be soldered into a panel of catenary. This afternoon I took photos of our local light rail system, "The San Diego Trolley". It uses cars and catenary equipment made in Germany, by Siemens Corp. There are no U.S. makers of electric trolley cars anymore. The Siemens catenary is similar to that used in Europe. and several other American cities. I think, from reading through this thread, that this may be closer to what you want than my Milwaukee stuff. Regardless, I'm happy to welcome another electric railroad enthusiast to the forum. Making your own catenary, whether it is used to run the trains or not, Isn't tremendously difficult. It simply takes lots of time and patience. Before I went over to DCC, I had planned to actually have the catenary "live" where It could operate the electric helper locomotives. Since DCC lets me control each loco separately, "live" overhead wire is no longer necessary. I also had the same concern Cycleops mentioned about possible higher current sparks from DCC. Then another forum member posted that he had been using live overhead, with DCC, successfully for some time. He was doing HO-scale, though, and did not reveal what type/size wire he was using. My concern centered on potential damage to the tiny wire I was using. I didn't think about decoder damage. Thanks Cycleops! This illustrates one of the great advantages of this forum. You get the collective wisdom of many people. I was, at that pre-DCC time, using .006" steel music wire. That does not solder well, so I tried copper wire. It solders just fine, but is too weak physically for catenary use. Someone on here suggested Phosphor/bronze wire. I'd heard of it, it's been used by trolley modelers for years, but I didn't know where to get it. Amazon.com to the rescue! The.013" P/B wire I bought there is both easy to solder, and strong. When I have gotten the other photos on my computer, I'll post them. In the meantime, here's the one I have. 

Welcome fellow traction modeler!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan

*Oops!*

Rock022;

Sorry about the double postings. I have been without a computer long enough (It had a hard drive failure) and I'm senile and digitally challenged enough to have forgotten how to attach a photo.:smilie_auslachen: I also found another view, of the same scene, that's better lit.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Gramps

:thumbsup: Great photo Traction. Many years ago I started to model the PC-Amtrak Northeast corridor but never got around to the catenary. I agree with you about watching heavy electrics under wire.


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## Rock022

Nice set up Traction. I am looking forward to having a nice catenary system. I will be modeling European HO. Yes when I add them up, the price escalates immediately for a short section.


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## traction fan

*Catenary cost*



Rock022 said:


> Nice set up Traction. I am looking forward to having a nice catenary system. I will be modeling European HO. Yes when I add them up, the price escalates immediately for a short section.


 Rock022;

You may want to cover only a short section of track. I don't know about a European example, but there were several here in the states. Great Northern electrified their cascade tunnel. The rest of the railroad was steam/diesel. Baltimore and Ohio also had a tunnel only short electrification. New York Central, New Haven, The Long Island RR. and anyone else entering New York's Grand Central Station had to electrify the last few miles of track into the city because of a smoke ordinance that banned steam locomotives in that area. Perhaps there is some equivalent short stretch of catenary on a European railway. (Not my field.)
The other option would be to make your own. The catenary I make is not all that strictly Milwaukee; due to the practical limits of making it. It could easily stand in for the modern,German-made, catenary used here in San Diego.

I'll send more photos when I can. You can judge from them whether this will work for you.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR

Outside of NYC, Philadelphia and DC, about the only
catenary installation now is the former Illinois Central
Electric suburban trains that are now Chicago Metra. Metra has
also taken control of the former South Shore to
South Bend. It originally used trolley poles but now
seems to be pantagraph powered.

I think of the apparently highly popular San Diego
system as more of a streetcar/light rail installation.
When I rode it some years back the overhead seemed
more like the typical streetcar power system.

Don


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## traction fan

*SD trolley*



DonR said:


> Outside of NYC, Philadelphia and DC, about the only
> catenary installation now is the former Illinois Central
> Electric suburban trains that are now Chicago Metra. Metra has
> also taken control of the former South Shore to
> South Bend. It originally used trolley poles but now
> seems to be pantagraph powered.
> 
> I think of the apparently highly popular San Diego
> system as more of a streetcar/light rail installation.
> When I rode it some years back the overhead seemed
> more like the typical streetcar power system.
> 
> Don


 Don, 

The San Diego Trolley (its official name) is indeed a light rail system. On 'C' street in downtown San Diego it actually does have trolley wire strung over that small section. All the rest of the system mileage is under catenary, of the modern, European type. The cars have modern, fairly type, pantographs, and no trolley poles. Downtown is the only area where there is any street running. Most of the original route was purchased from the old Arizona & Eastern freight railroad.
It has expanded several times adding new routes. These are built on separate right of way, often parallel to. but not in , streets and freeways. 
San Diego did have a real trolley system, with lots of street running, in the past. I don't know when it was plowed under, in favor of buses and autos. Perhaps you rode on the older system?

Regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR

TF

It was in the 90s that I took Amtrak for a one
day trip to San Diego from LA for the express
purpose of riding the fairly new, then, San Diego
trollies. There was only the one line down to the
border at that time.

The PCC cars that ran on San Diego tracks from
1937 until around 1950 were sold mainly to
El Paso, Tx. where they ran the only international
trolley route in North America crossing the River
to Mexico on a regular basis. When El Paso shut
down those PCCs in the 60s they were stored in the desert.
Six of them have be sent to be completely restored and
will go back into operation in El Paso soon. Those
ex San Diego PCCs will be the oldest regularly scheduled
operating streetcars in the country outside of the
famed St. Charles Perly Thomas cars in New Orleans.

I only wish Amtrak would restore Sunset Limited
train service to Jacksonville so I could travel down
there and ride those beautiful 1937 PCCs.

Don


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## prrfan

A few years ago I saw a video of one very fine layout featuring exquisitely done PRR catenary. (I have tried locating the video but cannot find it. Perhaps someone here remembers it. Believe it was HO.)
The interesting thing about it was that the modeler ran the locomotives with pantographs up but did not allow them to touch the wire. His reasoning for this was that it took many hours of labor to build it and one snag would instantly rip a good portion of it down. 
I had not considered that and seemed reasonable to me. I tend to go with what we usually say on here; his layout, his rules.
Some of the commenters apparently did not see it that way and engaged in a somewhat heated exchange over it. 
It may be a point to consider if one is contemplating catenary.


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## DonR

I suppose that some years back the modelers did not
have the resources we do now so an accident on the
overhead might have been more likely.

The way I look at it though, part of the satisfaction
of operating a true overhead power system is seeing
it actually work. Today's pantographs and catenary systems
should be all but trouble free.

It's a lot more work and potential problems with
trolley poles. You have to have correctly engineered
frogs in the overhead because they will actually guide
the trolley pole. There are no movable points. The
exact location above a turnout is a major factor. The
car must have turned thus 'pulling' the pole to one
side so it follows the right path through the wire frog.
If all is done right it is amazing to see the pole follow the
car through a turnout without a dewire.

The pantograph's wide collectors simply run along
under the wire and need no frogs.

Several years ago I had an HO streetcar model of the St. Louis
downtown using overhead power. 
There were PCC streetcars that ran on
two routes but, as they did in St. Louis, used a common
round the block section at the end of the line. This
meant they had to go through several turnouts and
wire frogs. Not only that, it was DC, so there was a
separate power pack for each of the two lines so
you had to switch the power source to follow the
trolleys as you threw the turnouts. It was a fun
challenge to keep the two lines working without
collision and without stopping.

Don


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