# What will be in the next generation of model train electronics?



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I have an idea but I want to know if anyone else has thought about it. What's the next jump after DCC. All technology advances, so what do you think would be the next advancement in model train control - it might include the engine, the couplers (remote control of individual couplers?), etc.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Yes, we'll have a huge advancement in the hobby, but it wont be with engines, couplers, etc.

The next DCC revolution will be where you can put a decoder chip in your wife, and then program her to willingly approve all family expenditures on expanding the model train collection / layout. And if for any reason, she doesn't do so willingly, you can send a Reset code which will reinitialize the programming sequence.

What d'ya' think? Big seller?!?



TJ


----------



## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Can ya program her to fetch beer and sammiches?
What about nocturnal activies?

I saw a clip,maybe on youtube, of remote control couplers. I think that might be next. How much more can be done with DCC??


----------



## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm thinking servo control like on a RC plane/car/boat. And I'm not talking about open/close type control, but have use the throttle to manipulate a device such as a coal loading chute or better yet a gantry crane. All with a DCC controller. Infact, one could use motor control with gear reduction for most of the functions on a gantry crane. You'd just need multiple addresses for the functions, eg address 12 is the pivot, address 13 is the boom up/down, address 14 is the winch line in/out, etc. Hmmmmm, maybe that'll be my next project. I have enough LEGO's, just need to buy a few more motors......................


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I'm going to use a model airplane serve for an O-Scale Tie-Jector car to activate the mechanism, so am I way ahead of the curve here? 

Speaking of cranes, there already is one that does that, here's mine.  You can raise and lower either hook or the boom, rotate the cab, and even turn the lights on/off. You can also deploy the outriggers for stability.


----------



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

What if the engine knew how long it's train was?

What if each car had an ID telling what kind it was and how long it was?

What if the system controller knew how long each spur or siding was and how long each train was, and where each train was?

What if each train was aware of all the other trains on the layout?

I think this will be achievable soon.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure what use some of that would be for a model guy. I'm not sure I want to have an ID for each car, or more importantly, pay for it. 

I'd like to have stuff like electrocouplers for each car, that would make it so you could run a real prototypical yard. The location on the layout would be nice too, but that's going to be layout specific.


----------



## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Arrrr...give me open frame motors, MRC Golden Throttle Packs, brass rail, scenery done with asbestoes powder and locomotives painted with stove black...aye...the old days when you could do battle soldering with an iron the size of a small boy, when switch machines could run bare naked on top of the layout and the little plastic peoples need not toss their cast on pedestals to the wind...where wheel flanges could cut deep dish pizzas and Mantua hook/loop couplers made horn/hooks look down right prototypical. ARRRRRrrrr...gimme the scent of lichen covered mountains, of dyed sawdust covered hills greener than a Granny Smith apple...when your biggest worry was whether that dead short would weld your favorite loco to the rails and kitty litter made great ballast...aye, those were the days....


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

xrunner, 
They already can do most of what you ask, It's called transponding. As far as the length of the train, it's location, direction and speed.
That system is getting better all the time.
They are designing DCC lighting modules that can also do transponding.
I heard rummer that there might be a Fred coming out that has transponding too!
If you take to transponding engines put one on the front and one on the rear you will know all of what you need to know.
The cars all get resistors on the axles for the controller/computer to sense where they are.


Cabledawg, 
They already make them for fixed use, servo switch controllers, it just a matter of time!
I can tell you how to do it with a 8 function mobile DCC controller and miniature gear reduction motors! I've got all the parts here!


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

xrunner said:


> What if each car had an ID telling what kind it was and how long it was?


And how much are you going to spend to put all sorts of electronics in every freight car?

And how are you phyically going to do that with a flatcar, gondola or open hopper?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

cv_acr said:


> And how much are you going to spend to put all sorts of electronics in every freight car?
> 
> And how are you phyically going to do that with a flatcar, gondola or open hopper?


I don't think the size is an issue, but I agree on the costs. Some of the stuff would cost more than it's worth to most folks.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2012)

Rail Gun?


----------



## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Rail Gun?


Now that would be cool...a model of the Schwerer Gustav or the Dora German rail guns would be sweet...:thumbsup:


----------



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

cv_acr said:


> And how much are you going to spend to put all sorts of electronics in every freight car?
> 
> And how are you phyically going to do that with a flatcar, gondola or open hopper?


The answer - RFID chips. The price isn't low enough yet, but it will be one day. When it gets down to 5 cents or less a chip all kinds of things are possible. It's a miniscule chip so it can be embedded in the plastic, they could make every car with one embedded telling the system all the info of the car - length, type, number, etc. It doesn't require a battery either, since they are powered from the RF signal that comes from the reader.

New systems would come with an RFID reader as standard equipment. Once you get all the cars with these chips, imagine what you could do with a more powerful controller that knew the track dimensions, where the turnouts are, etc.

Wow!


----------



## JohnAP (May 4, 2011)

I'm still working on installing DCC decoders, making operational crossbuck railroad crossing signs using photocell detection, and playing around with working stop signal lights, not to mention train signal lights, building/street lights etc....My next big project will be setting up routes. I have a bunch of google earth photos of Norfolk International Marine Terminal, i want to simulate a train pulling out across Hampton boulevard and have the route set to go during rush hour traffic....just like real life!


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

The problem with RFID's is the distance and time to read them.
I have seen them in action, all of our rescues get one. The readers are not cheap and they are not fast if you have 2 chips anywhere within a 1 to 3 foot span it reads both of them.
They may get it to do a little better but I don't think you will see it anytime soon!


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I think the simple installing of a resistor like Sean said to make it a transponding car, Using a program like Train Controller in conjunction with some of Digitrax's nice components, and then ESU's nice wireless handheld and I can't think of anything else that would be needed. 

That would give you complete computer control, operating signals, real time info of train location, pre-programmed routes with automated train control, as well as an easy to use DCC interface controller. The only thing missing would be DCC controlled couplers on every car to make it the utmost in realness but even then the simple wand models are fine by me but I would like to see DCC controlled couplers just not at the expensive price they will sell at. 

Also, MTH HO scale engines all come with Electro couplers and I believe even BLI has an engine or two now with electro-couplers.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ugh! Resistors say contacts, and as they get dirty, the wheels fall off.


----------



## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

Remote DCC couplers have been the craze with MTH engines and yes, in N scale (I'll say that again) N scale, Kato has them on there 2-8-2's. Maybe it'll be on cars. What about DCC controlled animatronics not seen on trains or cars and with motors getting smaller and smaller, maybe we'll finally have operating cranes and vehicles, maybe figures too!


----------



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> The problem with RFID's is the distance and time to read them.
> I have seen them in action, all of our rescues get one. The readers are not cheap and they are not fast if you have 2 chips anywhere within a 1 to 3 foot span it reads both of them.
> They may get it to do a little better but I don't think you will see it anytime soon!


Probably no time soon, true, but I'm talking about _next_ gen stuff - resistors and the like don't interest me as far as next gen, that's old gen.

The other thing is the handheld controller, such as the Digitrax DT402. Sure it was fine for what it is, but I think a re-design with color LCD screen showing much more info should be on the plate, a touch screen such as an iPhone has. Now that would be sweet! It also needs a proper rechargeable battery that will last for a good long while.


----------



## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

No problem CV. The receiver on each car will be the size of a period.(........)
Just stick 'em on the car somewhere and off ya go. I was always thinking about running the trains so they were all automatic and would go like a real RR.Now you can do that with the help of a computer.Remote control engines--got that. remote control and automatic turnouts---got that. Multiple engines running at the same time on the same track---got that. bells,horns,whistles and engine sounds----got that. Lights anywhere you want them with RC on and off----- got that. Little people to actually run the RR----- working on it prolly. What the heck else could you want?
All I need now is bullet proof track laying and no derailments. Pete


----------



## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Um, Apparently my constant mentioning of ESU controls has not gotten through to some. They offer Full color touch screen DCC command stations as well as a portable version to smart phones so they have all of the covered.


----------



## MarklinMan (Feb 29, 2012)

Since we are talking progress here, someone please tell me:
With digital control, do you now have the possibility of starting/stopping trains at a completely realistic "crawl speed" where there is none of the sudden "model jerk" at the beginning or end of moves?
Keep in mind I am coming from the dark ages of the 70es, so I know progress has been made, but how far has speed/motor control gotten?

MM.


----------



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

MarklinMan said:


> With digital control, do you now have the possibility of starting/stopping trains at a completely realistic "crawl speed" where there is none of the sudden "model jerk" at the beginning or end of moves?


Yes, that's what is achievable with my N scale locos, at least, with DCC.


----------



## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

*I don't know about you guys but....*

Part of the attraction of MRR and DCC is that all the parts are there now for almost everything that's been discussed (Including the rail gun  ), and I get to figure out how to make it all do what I want!! :thumbsup:

Everything from a decoder install in a loco to transponding and automation....its all there.


----------



## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

MarklinMan said:


> Since we are talking progress here, someone please tell me:
> With digital control, do you now have the possibility of starting/stopping trains at a completely realistic "crawl speed" where there is none of the sudden "model jerk" at the beginning or end of moves?
> Keep in mind I am coming from the dark ages of the 70es, so I know progress has been made, but how far has speed/motor control gotten?
> 
> MM.


Hi Marklin,

Short answer is pretty much yes! There are functions (I forget what they're called) that allow you to simulate a loaded train so that, when you increase the throttle....it starts to creep, then slowly builds speed (you can regulate this too). You get the same controls for deceleration too.

Jim


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

MarklinMan said:


> Since we are talking progress here, someone please tell me:
> With digital control, do you now have the possibility of starting/stopping trains at a completely realistic "crawl speed" where there is none of the sudden "model jerk" at the beginning or end of moves?
> Keep in mind I am coming from the dark ages of the 70es, so I know progress has been made, but how far has speed/motor control gotten?
> 
> MM.


Try looking at around 0.45 in this video for a typical startup sequence of a Legacy locomotive.


----------



## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Try looking at around 0.45 in this video for a typical startup sequence of a Legacy locomotive.


SWeeeeet video John! Kinda makes we want to reconsider my decision to model diesel only!

Jim


----------



## MarklinMan (Feb 29, 2012)

Re: video.

Impressive and real-looking...a far cry from my 70es transformer functions 

MM.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The modern command/control, whether it's TMCC, DCS, or DCC all have advanced the realism of operation a huge amount. Almost all the locomotives I have are equipped with cruise control so I can have that kind of operation from them. It's nice to have the train hgh-iballing around the tracks at times, but it's also nice to have prototypical slow operation.


----------



## MidwestMikeGT (Jan 4, 2021)

Imagine a layout which is NOT dependent on power from the rails but rather wireless power (read 5G). The rails would not need to be metal (although it would be nice) and the motors will be actuated wirelessly and remotely. RFID technology employed for near-range sensors to know where each train engine was and direction of travel. 

In addition, vehicular traffic which are microprocessor and motor equipped to similarly be actuated and travel pseudo-autonomously along pre-defined roads (sensing UV markers).

Just a dream but who knows down the road?


----------



## Chops124 (Dec 23, 2015)

A lot of interesting foresight, particularly with improved RFID chips. But how to get new modelers into the game and get them away from plug 'n play computers? Computer gaming has done to model trains what the IHS did to railroads. 

Train sets into the hands of newbies leads to a lot of disappointment as the two gremlins of grime and oxide have their way. Attention needs to be drawing young folk into the herd, and reliability is key, but where is the demographic? Most of us here are probably over 50.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, a very old thread, but perhaps worth revisiting given the advance of technology.

I am in my late 50's, but I'm still excited by new technologies and ideas. What DOESN'T excite me is tech for the sake of technology. Let me explain -- look at a Tesla: everything is controlled from a large touchscreen display on the center of the dashboard... which looks really slick, but it is exponentially harder to control and much more distracting to the driver than a more conventional control layout. The high tech interface adds nothing to the experience, and in fact makes it harder to do simple things. In my opinion, touchscreen controls for a model railroad fall into the same category -- making you have to wrestle with an interface rather than driving trains (although in fairness, I know at least a few people do not agree with me on that score). It boils down to this: "Just because you can doesn't mean that you should."

Model railroading fits into that category. DCC hasn't totally replaced basic DC, despite simplification of wiring, the potential to control / run several trains from the same controller at the same time, and the ability to tweak the performance of locomotives. So while I can theorize all day about the amazing things that COULD be done with technology, until you show me a qualitative superiority of wireless operation over DCC, my response will always be "meh". Good engineering works backwards from a goal: how do I do X faster, or more simply, or even when I couldn't do it before. It apples technology to solve problems. Tech that doesn't do that is just expensive bells and whistles.

So far, the only advantage that dead rail and other "advances" have been able to come up with is avoiding dirty track, and many of them come with a different set of drawbacks or limitations than electrified rails. But ever since I learned about using non-polar solvents to clean track and inhibit oxidizing, this really isn't an issue for me. I spend less than 15 minutes, once a month cleaning track, and that's out of habit, not because it really needs it. Give me a true advance in capabilities, and I'll get excited, not before. And BTW, rails are SUPPOSED to be metal. 'Nuff said on that.

And to Chops' point: I think "computer games" is a convenient bogeyman for later generations to blame the problems of youth. I think the real reason kids aren't interested in model trains is the relative absence of REAL trains in their lives. Kids who are interested in trains ARE interested in model railroading (you can't just shove a starter set into a kid's hands and expect him to take to it -- it's a fairly complicated hobby). I have 2 different train simulators and Railroad Tycoon on my computer, and I still return to the layout.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

MarklinMan said:


> Since we are talking progress here, someone please tell me:
> With digital control, do you now have the possibility of starting/stopping trains at a completely realistic "crawl speed" where there is none of the sudden "model jerk" at the beginning or end of moves?
> Keep in mind I am coming from the dark ages of the 70es, so I know progress has been made, but how far has speed/motor control gotten?
> 
> MM.


----------



## MidwestMikeGT (Jan 4, 2021)

Great points, @CTValleyRR! Yes, the rails could (and maybe should) still be metal and yes, you are correct. Wireless power would remove the need for cleaning the tracks. It would also reduce/eliminate the need to actually run wires under the layout, making it much simpler. The chances of a short circuit caused by derailment (and smoking controllers, etc.) would/could be significantly reduced, I postulate. Maybe the advent of wireless power will allow older DC engines to be converted easily, I don't know. 

Of course, there would be need significant AI development in sensing and avoiding potential collisions (much like the collision detection and avoidance systems within computer networks) on train networks and at traffic junctions, where wheeled traffic will cross track traffic. 

In theory, it will still be doable and it will certain pique the interest of children (and adults) who get into the hobby. Of course, this is only my theory and imagination at work. I, too, am in my VERY late 50s and will be 60 soon


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Newbie HO Train chap said:


> Great points, @CTValleyRR! Yes, the rails could (and maybe should) still be metal and yes, you are correct. Wireless power would remove the need for cleaning the tracks. It would also reduce/eliminate the need to actually run wires under the layout, making it much simpler. The chances of a short circuit caused by derailment (and smoking controllers, etc.) would/could be significantly reduced, I postulate. Maybe the advent of wireless power will allow older DC engines to be converted easily, I don't know.


Wireless power does not, and never will remove the need for track cleaning completely, as long as there is gunk around that can get up into the running gear of your locos. And since wiring is generally "once and done", not really a reason to get excited about saving time there. I'll grant the reduced chance of a short, but serious ones are so uncommon that isn't really a selling point for an upgrade. It's like some of these scare stories running around the internet... yes, something bad COULD happen, but is it really likely enough to waste time, energy and money avoiding it?


----------



## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

tjcruiser said:


> Yes, we'll have a huge advancement in the hobby, but it wont be with engines, couplers, etc.
> 
> The next DCC revolution will be where you can put a decoder chip in your wife, and then program her to willingly approve all family expenditures on expanding the model train collection / layout. And if for any reason, she doesn't do so willingly, you can send a Reset code which will reinitialize the programming sequence.
> 
> ...


I mentioned this idea to a friend. He would like two of those systems please. One for his wife, the other for his girl friend because they're always fighting. He would try to program them to agree all the time.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, DCC is only one of several control systems standards for model railroading, and not the one I use, but all of them probalby evolve, all rather predictably. There is an entire science of technology growth forecasting that I was lucky enough to run into just after leaving grad school, and learn early. The father of it is a guy named Joseph P. Martino who text is still one of the main ones in the field. I used that science to good measure in nearly 50 years career in electrical engineering and product development management, and it was an immense help, and in broad sense, very correct it its predictions.

With O-Gauge we recently saw some real growth, all to the good, as Lionel's somewhat clunky TMCC.Legacy recently morphed beautifully into its new Bluetooth Legacy, easier to use and less hassle and equipment to set up and more choices of how you control the locos, all to the good. Yet, Bluetooth Legacy still runs all the old Lionel control systems, fully comptiable and capable of running with the oldest TMCC controllers and locos, or the somewhat newer-but-still-now-going-obsolete Legacy, too, and even going back further to conventional (just push the power supply "throttle." up to go faster, etc.). The electronics do it all. And I would expect anything evolving to be able to do that, and avoid it if it could not. 

More generally the principles of technological and product forecasting probably apply to model train electronics as much as anywhere else. One predictable trend in technological forecasting is to expect more variation of things that could not or were not varied in the past, and more automated/coordinated action done by the sysytems themselves. A just-recently-introducted feature from Lionel in its high-end products is a perfect example. The force coupler is a very cool innovation and sure to cat ch on. It was introduced in Lionel's as on the recent high-end ($2200, definately high end) brass-hyrbid model GS-1 through GS-4 locomotives, that were released earlier this year. As always the loco chuffing of diesel noise varies as it should with speed, but with the force coupler the sound varies in another way, too: the coupler between loco-tender measures the amount of pull - force - the loco is exerting to move the train behind it and varies the synthesized chuffing (or diesel) sound, when its is pulling hard the engine sound because deep and labored, when it is not working as hard the sound is much lighter. And when the train slows you get a wonder "crunch" sound as Lionel calls it - the sound of couplers crunching together as the train cars bunch up behind a decelerating loco. 
There are other recent examples of this improvement principle such as a coupler that varies the distance between cars, keepin them coupler short so they look good (real) on straights but allowing the coupler to stretch out a bit farther when the cars go into a curve so that the model train can make it around sharper curves. In both cases - the lengthing coupler and force-leads-to-a-change-in-synthesized sound, the improvement was to vary something that had been fixed in the past, to get better "performance" than in the past. This will probably continue with other variations (you can set assenger car doors to open when at the station, and . . . who knows?)


----------



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

What about a camera or cameras taking constant video of your layout, digesting the data into train manifests and speeds then plugging that data into a computer program that you use to tell the trains where to go.


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Voice recognition, "F7 STOP, g d it"


----------

