# Homemade under-the-table switch machine???



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Hey guys, I really want to have under the table switch machines, but I don't want to buy anything expensive. I have become good friends with my local RadioShack guy since I have been in and out of there so many times lately. Wanted to see if anyone had an ideas.... Thanks guy! Ur always a huge help!


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Reliable and cheap and simple turnout controls*

Aminnich;

If you don't mind mechanical, as opposed to electric, switch machines, there are several possibilities. It depends on how many functions you want the thing to do. For instance, if all you want is to throw the points of the turnout, either clothes pins(the kind with a spring), or hairpins will work. Simply mount one under each turnout so that its spring action holds the points over in one direction. Using a simple string, or better yet a picture hanging wire cable you can pull the device in the other direction. If you attach a lever(3-4 Popsicle sticks glued together), moving in a notched plate, to hold the tension on the cable. This would keep the turnout's points in that position until you move the lever. 
If you want to change frog polarity, a micro switch can be set to operate when the spring tension pushes the points back into position. A friend of mine used slide switches(Radio Shack?) mounted under the table. The handle of each slide switch was drilled and a rod put in the hole. A simple push/pull rod of music wire, with a glued on wood knob, operated the slide switch and points.

Hope that gets you thinking of how you want to do it.

Traction Fan


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

As for functions, I'm hoping to run LEDs from the switch. I want to use a motor/servo, i don't really want a switch at the turnout, I'd rather it be remote controlled type of thing. Also I'm not running all my turnouts through the dcc control panel. I'm having the turnouts on a seperate control panel. I'll prob use toggle switches for the control panel.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*I don't understand*



Aminnich said:


> Hey guys, I really want to have under the table switch machines, but I don't want to buy anything expensive. I have become good friends with my local RadioShack guy since I have been in and out of there so many times lately. Wanted to see if anyone had an ideas.... Thanks guy! Ur always a huge help!



Aminnich;

I guess I didn't understand the question. Servos were never mentioned. Nor was DCC; although that doesn't apply unless you were planning to operate turnouts with your DCC system. Your reply says you don't want to. The switch at the turnout has nothing to do with moving the turnout's points. It is only for frog polarity. You could, if you wish, also use one for your LEDs,to show, back at the control panel, which way the turnout was thrown.
Servos have been used, successfully, as switch machines. Many modelers have done so.
I have not, personally, but I've never heard anything bad about them. These guys used commercially available servos that they bought assembled. Were you planning to make your own servos at home?
If your plan was to buy servos, why did you ask about something inexpensive, and,at least by implication,
assembled at home, from some Radio Shack parts? 

Traction Fan


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Sorry I didn't word the first post very well. I want to make the mechanism for the switch machine using a motor or something. I want it to be run from a control panel with an LED saying which say the switch is going, and even if I could run signal lights on the layout through the turnout wiring somehow, Idk. I don't want to have to buy 30 something tortoise switch machines. I'd rather buy 30+ servos and make the switch machine myself. Sorry, I hope this clears some things up a bit. Thanks for all your help lately tho, It is greatly appreciated!!!!


----------



## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*verticle switch machine under the table plastic mounting bracket.*

I saw recently brackets that hold an Atlas turn out controller (switch machine) vertically
under the table. where a larger hole is required for the throw arm to move the points back
and forth.(straight or diverging routes).Maybe, they may be able to help you in this instance,
for the short term? Regard's, tr1


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Small under-table switch machines are available for this purpose. I bought four of them at a model train show and swap meeting, at our fairgrounds, for about $6 a piece. Hard to beat that - probably impossible to beat for price making your own. 

Making your own could be fun, though, and is an opportunity to learn a good deal. But if you aren't experienced with electro-mechanical stuff like this, expect to have to go through several iterations of failure before getting it to work. You can use of a motor of solenoids (how i would do it unless I was hell-bent on having a slow (as in the real world) movement of the switch points.


----------



## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

Check out Iowa Scaled Engineering:

www.iascaled.com


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Servos are going to cost around $5 so if you can buy purpose made switches for the same money there's little point in making your own.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Cycleops said:


> Servos are going to cost around $5 so if you can buy purpose made switches for the same money there's little point in making your own.


This makes some sense, i haven't found a switch machine for $10 let alone $5. Anyway, I think I'm going to look into the atlas bracket to hold it vertical, this might do the trick, and if it does, it would be cheaper than the servos. I did a ton of research late last night, and found u have to do programming to the servo for it to work for a turnout. This being said, servos would b quite expensive, since u have to buy the servos, the programming board, and what not, so next I'm looking into the tatlas bracket.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you use the tortoise type of stall motor for your turnouts you
would want to use DPDT switches for your panel controls. One
side of it would control your turnout motor, the other side would
set the RED/GREEN LED to match the points position. The LED
power and setting could also be used in a two transitor circuit to
set block signals that show if a 'main' has a clear route, for example.

Don


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I think I'm going to try something like this..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xg8vIsoXPFY


----------



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

on my old layout i used standard atlas switch machines designed for top mounting, but modified the plastic arm with a 90 degree bend, and hot glued them UNDER the turnout.. worked okay, and looked clean but if a solenoid switch died the turnout would have to come out,, i got lucky and they lasted okay ...not sure if i have any left .. another older atlas switch machine was made to mount on either side of a turnout [had tabs on both sides] and those had a long thin wire rather than plastic, and those could be mounted underneath in some cases with a simple piece of aluminum angle, or flat with the wire bent into a 90 angle, think i might have a dozen of those ... my current layout uses caboose ground throws only..


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

If I get the deluxe under the table switch machine, can I hook up LEDs for on the layout, LEDs for the control panel, and a sdpt Toggle switch all to the unit??


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Adam,

Before you get too far down the path here, check out the offering from Tam Valley Depot (www.tamvalleydepot.com). They have servos, several flavors of controllers with LED's (bi-color or single color), and controller cards for the whole setup. I have been using them for years, and they work wonderfully.

As Don said, they are not expensive, even if you buy them pre-wired and assembled. You can save some money if you buy the parts and assemble your own. Servo cables can be found very cheaply on eBay or Amazon. The only expensive part is the controller card, at $35-ish each, but each one can control up to 8 servos.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Making your own*

Aminnich;

Now I think I understand what you want. Some sort of electric motor for each turnout that will move the points and operate contacts to handle LED directional indicators on your control panel, possibly signals on the layout, and possibly frog polarity. Do I have that right? 

If the info above is correct, I have a few other questions for you.

1) What brand, type of turnouts? (ie. Atlas snap track, Atlas custom line, Peco electrofrog,
Peco insulfrog, or other.) 

2) Are the frogs of these turnouts plastic or metal?

3) How many turnouts are you going to have on the layout.

4) do you want slow motion movement of the points, or are you OK with fast snap action?

Once I have your answers to these questions, I may be able to help you further.

Incidentally, I'm not a big fan of the Atlas snap action switch machine. I've seen the N scale versions literally shake themselves to pieces.( the HO ones may be sturdier, I don't know.) Also, in any scale, you will probably end up wanting a capacitive discharge system to operate them. (this prevents otherwise all-too-frequent burnouts.)
If you can solder, and are acquainted with basic electronics, you can easily make your own.

Regards;
Traction Fan


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Aminnich said:


> Sorry I didn't word the first post very well. I want to make the mechanism for the switch machine using a motor or something. I want it to be run from a control panel with an LED saying which say the switch is going, and even if I could run signal lights on the layout through the turnout wiring somehow, Idk. I don't want to have to buy 30 something tortoise switch machines. I'd rather buy 30+ servos and make the switch machine myself. Sorry, I hope this clears some things up a bit. Thanks for all your help lately tho, It is greatly appreciated!!!!


 Is this message for me, "Traction Fan?"


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I'm using old brass snap track. I would have about 30 turnouts, I believe they r metal, and I'd rather a slow motion. I'm talking with ctvalleyrr right now about tam valley depot switch machine systems. So maybe u will ave a different idea, thanks


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Which machine?*



Aminnich said:


> If I get the deluxe under the table switch machine, can I hook up LEDs for on the layout, LEDs for the control panel, and a sdpt Toggle switch all to the unit??


Aminnich;

Short answer, yes, probably.
Are you asking about tortoise machines or some other, "delux under the table" commercial model railroad product?

Traction Fan


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Aminnich said:


> I think I'm going to try something like this..
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xg8vIsoXPFY


Nothing wrong with that. Clever idea to avoid the hassle of aligning
the turnout motor by crawling around under the layout. That is a plain
old Atlas twin coil switch motor. You can probably get them used
for very little money.

They do require a pulse of current to throw the points.
A momentary push button is usually used in the panel for this, 2
for each turnout.

However, they do not have a built in switch to control your panel
LEDs. When you use a twin coil machine and want to control panel
LEDs you would need to attach a micro switch to that machine, or
do it the awkward, but easy way. Use a DPDT switch for each turnout
controlled by the panel. One side controls the location of the points through
a ONLY ONE momentary push button, the other side controls the LEDs. The downside
of this circuit is that if you fail to push the button the points and the LEDs
will not agree.

I always advise powering twin coil turnout motors with a Capacitor Discharge
unit. It will prevent the burnout of the turnout motor coils from a stuck
button or carelessly long button pushes. One unit will power the entire
layout.

Don


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

@DonR- I would get the deluxe version so I could connect the signal and switches to the control panel with leds.

@traction fan- right now im looking for ideas of what I could use, I have the ability to make the switch machine from different components from RadioShack or some place.


----------



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the atlas 66 deluxe machines are basically a combination of the 65 under table switch machine and the 200 snap relay, yes they will power leds, or frogs, or both .. [six connections] two sets of three ...however unless you get a real good buy used they are the same general price as a tortoise, which has the benefit of slower [more realistic] motion .. the atlas switch machines require a combination spdt / momentary switch, as they are momentary powered


----------



## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*indicator lights would be nice.$*

making the turnout controller to report back to the control panel consistently. May be difficult
to achieve, however.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I not sure what I should do here. I like the tortoise machines, but the tam valley depot switches seem like a great buy as well.

I want something that can do everything I want it to, and it sounds like the deluxe atlas switches can't do that


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Will your decision be based to the cost per turnout, or
some other factor.

To throw the turnouts, and also have panel, and future block signal
LED control you have several choices that have been outlined in
this thread.

l. The Tortoise with the built in DPDT switch to control your
LED panel lights that would need only
an SPDT toggle switch on your panel for each turnout.. T

2. The somewhat similar Tam system that seems to use a special
panel control.

3. The Atlas twin coil machine with attached relay to control
your LED panel lights. These could
be controlled on the panel by 2 momentary push buttons for
each turnout..

4. The Atlast twin coil machines without the relay (cheaper) but
controlled, as I outlined, using a DPDT panel switch and a single
momentary push button for each turnout. The DPDT would control
turnout motor and LEDs.

If you go with the Atlas machines I would install them as the
link you posted showed. 

Don


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Thanks for wrapping all of that up don, as of right now i comparing prices between the tortoise and the tam valley. They seem like the same thing, but I have to look into both of them deeper. As for how im making my decision, it will b determined by the cost and how much it can do, even if I do use the function right away, I could use it in the future.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Ok.... So I did some calculations. For the tam valley depot I did 40 turnouts and for tortoise I did 36 turnouts. I did this only because it was easier, I have a unit price for each machine set up tho. So for the tam valley depot, I got a total price of $803.10, which is change over $20 and setup. For the tortoise, it would cost $718.60 for 36 for everything needed. Which is change under $20 each. 

$20 for each doesn't seem that bad, but for a larger layout that gets crazy expensive, I don't know u guys do it! Honestly, I think I would pay the extra pennies for the tam valley depot stuff.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Decision?*

Aminnich;

Sounds like you have a lot to think over. If you want it, I can give you info on how to make your own switch machines. I have done so in the past. Now I use Hankscraft brand, slow geared motors and my own homemade linkages. However if you have decided on Tortoise, or Tam Valley that info won't be needed. You seem to be very concerned about cost. I don't blame you! Commercial switch machines are quite expensive when you need a lot of them. Making your own will be cheaper in money, but demand much more of your time. That's the trade off ;time vs. money.
Only you can make that decision. If I can help you any further, let me know.

Traction Fan hwell:


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

I sent you a pm traction fan


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Brass track frogs*



Aminnich said:


> I'm using old brass snap track. I would have about 30 turnouts, I believe they r metal, and I'd rather a slow motion. I'm talking with ctvalleyrr right now about tam valley depot switch machine systems. So maybe u will ave a different idea, thanks


Aminnich;

If you are using brass rail turnouts, they most likely have black plastic frogs with 4 metal(brass) rails running into them. This can be good or bad. Since you plan on using DCC, an all metal frog, electrically isolated from the rest of the track is desirable. That doesn't mean you can't use DCC with plastic frogs, many have done so. The only difference would be whether they are wired or not. That's something that can wait; and it can be worked out. Right now you have other things to decide.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think you need to check your numbers again. 40 Turnouts (and I'm not sure I understand why you're comparing this price to 36 Tortoises) worth of stuff from Tam Valley (5 Octo III's, 40 servo machines w/mounts, 40 fascia controllers, plus optional power supply, remote alignment tool, and centering tool) comes to $743.60, a pro-rated unit cost of $18.59 each. Did you maybe forget to take quantity discounts?

True, I haven't included cabling -- but 66 feet of servo cable on Amazon will only run you $15.50; $0.39 per turnout, still keeping the unit cost under $19.

Granted, that's still a lot of money, but you don't have to buy it all at once from TV. You can take the price break on the number you will plan to buy... on the honor system.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

$700+ just to nicely switch your turnouts is crazy, sure it is great and I'm sure I'm not going to be using 40 turnouts, but still.


I don't have much track laid out right now anyway, I just a general idea of what I want, but I haven't had the time to really work on the layout for an extended amount of time


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

This isn't a cheap hobby, and no one is going to say it is. The acquisition of all the parts for the next version of my layout -- not counting structures or benchwork -- is going to run me close to $1800, when all is said and done (and note that I've saved everything I can from the previous layout, so that's the incremental cost of expansion). Buried somewhere in there is about $350 for the additional Tam Valley stuff.

Just remember Rome wasn't built in a day, and you can't eat an elephant in one bite. I have been gradually acquiring the stuff I need for the expansion for almost 3 years now, on a budget of $50 a payday (for ALL my hobby expenses), because college ain't cheap either, and I'm paying for one now with two more on the way. Still, "expensive" is a relative term. Everyone's pain threshold is different.

Part of what's killing you is volume. Even at the cheapest price I can find for an SG90 servo, you're going to pay $150-ish to motorize 40 turnouts, and that's not counting wires, cables, switches, or mounting... never mind trying to do an automated dispatcher panel.

There are several ways to create hand-operated turnouts using dowels, piano wire, brass tubing, thread spools, and many other creative ideas. You can wire mechanical contacts to activate small light bulbs or LED's on a dispatcher's panel. Obviously, this approach is cheaper than automated turnouts, but doesn't have the same sense of running a railroad from the dispatcher's board. Unfortunately, though, if you really want cheap, the only solution is to use the manual levers that come with the turnouts.

Spend some more time thinking about what you really want to do. There are people here who can give you some guidance no matter what you decide.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Im going to slowly start squiring the thugs that I need for my layout. Im sure I wont b using 40 turnouts, it isn't some huge layout. I really want to use the tan valley depot stuff, it seems great. So I think I'm just going to buy the minimal to get the cheaper price for the stuff (the bulk price). Im going to college in the fall and I don't want to spent all this money when I have huge tuition bills on the way... I'll just take a train loan out hahaha jk!!


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Aminnich said:


> Im going to slowly start squiring the thugs that I need for my layout.


Be careful, those thugs could get nasty😃


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Haha, I type too fast. I will start AQUIRING THINGS that I need for my layout


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Know what you mean, my iOS spellchecker can be infuriating!


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

My autocorrect helps about 55% of the time... the rest of the time it screws me up.

Remember, Tam Valley will let you take the volume discount for the number you ULTIMATELY plan to buy, on the honor system, even if it takes you several years. You can take the price break on everything, even if you buy in ones and twos.

And BTW, kudos to you for helping pay for your own education (my deal with my boys is I pay tuition & housing, they pay living expenses and books). This is a great time for you -- going off to college is one of the biggest events of your life. Savor it.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Im debating on tam valley or making my own right now. But tam valley would b a ton easier.... 

Btw not to get too off subject, the final deciding factor for which school I choose was.... The model train club... Hahaha


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Aminnich said:


> Im debating on tam valley or making my own right now. But tam valley would b a ton easier....
> 
> Btw not to get too off subject, the final deciding factor for which school I choose was.... The model train club... Hahaha


Well, it's not like you can hijack your own thread...

Where are you going? Penn State / University Park?

I would buy one Octo III, a couple of servos, and a couple of controllers. Exapand a few at a time until you hit 8, then buy another Octo, and so on. I have over $500 worth of stuff, but I bought it over about 3 years.

Keep using the manual throws until you convert them. Start with the ones that are hardest to reach.


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Im going to penn state, yes. I think that is what im going to do. But one Octo, and an equal nber of servos to controllers


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

Im not sure if this was talked about, but do u have turnout signals on your layout??


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Aminnich said:


> Im not sure if this was talked about, but do u have turnout signals on your layout??



The only indicators I have for turnout position are the LEDs on
the control panel. There are no signals at the turnouts. I notice
fewer and fewer of these on the real rail roads also. I remember
back in the 30s, 40s and maybe 50s there was a switch stand
about 6 or 7 feet tall at each
turnout with an oil lamp at it's top. It had green and red lens
to indicate points position. In passenger yards there were 
trackside mini signals.

The original Lionel and Marx 0 gauge turnouts had lighted
signals, but I can't recall ever seeing them on today's HO
or N scale layouts.

I do have a signal bridge over one section of main that has four
turnouts in it. The LED is green if ALL 4 are set for a through
route, It goes red if ANY one of the turnouts is diverting.

Don


----------



## Aminnich (Nov 17, 2014)

If the signals are not ised that often on the RR, then im not going to include them on my layout and it will make things much much easier.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

TVD has a plug in that can be used with a Y cable to control signals. I have never bothered.


----------

