# New Lionel Legacy #990/993 systems?



## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Has Lionel begun shipping the new Legacy systems yet? If so how can one tell if it is the new systems?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lionel shipped many new systems about a year ago, don't know of yet another batch.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Lionel shipped many new systems about a year ago, don't know of yet another batch.


I thought they were on the shipping schedule. Patric's trains posted that they just got a new shipment. A lot of dealers were out of stock or so I thought.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I haven't heard there is anything different about this year's sets than last year's shipments. The previous lack of stock was due to an issue with obsolete parts, then there was a production issue where sub-standard parts were used at the factory and Lionel rejected the lot. That ended up taking a long time to resolve, but now they have a pipeline, and I think until there's a reason to change it, they'll be the same as last year's.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

don't know how many they have but the site says in stock.
http://www.charlesro.com/store/merc...e=CRSC&Product_Code=L14295&Category_Code=OLTP


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I haven't heard there is anything different about this year's sets than last year's shipments. The previous lack of stock was due to an issue with obsolete parts, then there was a production issue where sub-standard parts were used at the factory and Lionel rejected the lot. That ended up taking a long time to resolve, but now they have a pipeline, and I think until there's a reason to change it, they'll be the same as last year's.


I think the components are still obsolete unless they found a source. After all the system design is ten or more years old and should be due for an upgrade given all the issues. Seems like the Cab1L system is more reliable due to upgraded components. Although you do give up some features.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I know that Mike Reagan stated at last fall's York that the new Legacy systems were using parts that are current, I'm not sure what exactly that means. He also spoke of the issues with the rejection of the whole lot for QC issues that pushed them back many more months.

I confess that I've never actually opened up an old and new one to see what the difference is. The functionality, as near as I can tell, is identical. I have the older Legacy units, and after getting the charging circuit fixed, they've all worked perfectly, so I'm not complaining.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I know that Mike Reagan stated at last fall's York that the new Legacy systems were using parts that are current, I'm not sure what exactly that means. He also spoke of the issues with the rejection of the whole lot for QC issues that pushed them back many more months.
> 
> I confess that I've never actually opened up an old and new one to see what the difference is. The functionality, as near as I can tell, is identical. I have the older Legacy units, and after getting the charging circuit fixed, they've all worked perfectly, so I'm not complaining.


There were some rumors that they were going to make some major hardware changes in order to ensure that they could continue to produce the product and not be strapped by obsolete components. The platform that they considered is the one found in the CAB1L.

The QC issues that interrupted the supply had to do with a component that the china contractor substituted for one that was obsolete. Unfortunately the component they chose caused a major failure and Lionel had to search the globe to find the correct part. They found a thousand of the parts in Germany but I don't know where they found the additional ones to make the necessary repairs to the IC boards.

Again, I think they are in the process of some type of upgrade so that they will not be at the mercy of obsolete parts. They want to have a ready supply for at least another ten years.

Even if they do an upgrade to the hardware I doubt if they would announce that fact. They don't want any current inventory at their dealers to be affected.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I confess as to not really knowing what's actually happening at Lionel in regard to the Legacy system. Mike Reagan certainly didn't suggest there was any major redesign when he talked, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. I know they also had an issue with the LCD panels, the makers don't want to make the little panels anymore.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I confess as to not really knowing what's actually happening at Lionel in regard to the Legacy system. Mike Reagan certainly didn't suggest there was any major redesign when he talked, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. I know they also had an issue with the LCD panels, the makers don't want to make the little panels anymore.


I think they have realized that certain components which are obsolete do not have a readily available alternative. The glass on the screen is a liability and could easily be replaced with Gorilla glass which is unbreakable. The CAB1L system has a much longer range than does #990 why I don't know.

All you really need to do, and I know that you have since you account for the majority of answers on the other forum, is to read all the problems people seem to have. Now operator error is certainly an issue but that can't account for all the issues.

Do you really think that MR will talk about a future updated product? That would spell the death for the sales of the current product. That would be like saying they will be introducing Legacy II control in all upcoming engines. Every pre-order would be cancelled.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I see issues with Legacy, but then I see plenty of issues with MTH as well. I'm currently waiting on parts to fix two MTH TIU's, one lost DCS on a channel, the other one ate all it's FETs in one of the variable channel.

Assuming there is a new Legacy in the pipeline, I suspect it'll still be compatible with what exists, they're building the whole LCS framework based on the Legacy system.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I see issues with Legacy, but then I see plenty of issues with MTH as well. I'm currently waiting on parts to fix two MTH TIU's, one lost DCS on a channel, the other one ate all it's FETs in one of the variable channel.
> 
> Assuming there is a new Legacy in the pipeline, I suspect it'll still be compatible with what exists, they're building the whole LCS framework based on the Legacy system.


There will not be any major changes to the Legacy system as a whole but Lionel does need to insure that they have a supply of compatible components so they avoid the issues they had with supply last year. It caused a major spike in the aftermarket sales of the system with people paying upwards of $500 or more on the major auction sites.

As far as the LCD display is concerned one of the issues of supply has more to do with the quantity needed rather than availability. Lionel may want to order say 2000 for current production while other manufacturers of say cell phones that use them may order ten times as many. If you can place a huge order someone will make them for you.

I remember a couple of years ago a component for TMCC used by Atlas, Weaver and 3rd Rail was going to be in short supply and ultimately discontinued. However if a company was willing to order 20,000 of them the supplier would produce them. Not sure how that worked out or if there was a substitute but I doubt if any company order that number.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's not uncommon in the parts world. Working in aerospace for many years, we built products that had a service life of 20-30 years, so we had to insure that we could produce them for many years, and support them for even more years. A number of times we had to make a "last time buy" of a large quantity of an obsolete part, and just warehouse them in case. A few times we even commissioned a custom part to replace a part that we could no longer get. The good side was, given that technology was moving on, it's usually pretty easy to duplicate the functionality of an older part with newer technology in the same form factor. The hard part was certifying that the part actually did duplicate the functionality, that sometimes got very expensive! The must difficult parts was stuff like microprocessors, we just had to make sure we had a lifetime supply before they stopped producing them. As for restarting production of an obsolete part, we had to do that once. Analog Devices discontinued a DAC we used in several products, and there was no good replacement. It came down to redesigning the boards for the products and going through the full qualification process or getting AD to make a custom run of the DAC. We had to buy 10,000 of them to restart the process, I'm sure they still have a shelf full of them somewhere.


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## milehighxr (Dec 22, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Assuming there is a new Legacy in the pipeline, I suspect it'll still be compatible with what exists, they're building the whole LCS framework based on the Legacy system.


You nailed the most logical upgrade path right there John. LCS I think would(could) just replace Legacy completely at sometime in the future. 

Now if they were to introduce engines that could not be run with the Legacy system, but only with LCS, then I could see where a lot of folks simply wouldn't buy the newer stuff, or if they did they just wouldn't be able to have all the neat features, without LCS. I know my dad and I have pieces(mostly some MTH stuff of his) that we can't take full advantage of because we don't have MTH DCS.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Whatever transpires, I guess we'll just live with it.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

As far as Lionel ordering large quantities of any component to insure a steady supply I don't think that is feasible. The part that they needed is simply not available. They got lucky. So, a revision is the way to go.

I doubt that they would make LCS engines only would be far fetched. I do remember MR saying that they were banking on all the new remote control options to increase interest in the hobby from the younger generation of computer savvy kids. How or when that stradgey will work to enhance the hobby remains to be seen.


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