# What I am tackling



## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

This is some what of a repost from 2 years ago on here, but I wanted to share what I am up against. I am trying to re-create this layout for my son who's grandpa built this layout years ago. The grandpa died over 26 years ago way before my son was born or unfortunatly before I ever met him. My wife was very little the last time she ever saw this train equipment and upon her mother dying a couple of years ago, we found this in the attic. I have had some toy trains when I was little but never a nice set up as this appears to once have been. My goal will be to re-create what this once was and repair or replace anything in the process. I dont have anyone to ask but on here and 2 years ago I got some good advice, but didnt have the time to seriously tackle this project yet. Now I am making it a priority to at least get things up and running with a few neat scenes so my son can ejoy it. I want to tackle the things in progressive order so I dont want to have to go back and re-do anything. Here are some pictures of the controller with the orginal layout nicely shown on the diagram plus the cars and other items that we found with it. Most everything needs cleaning including the track surfaces. My plans are logically to 
1) First lay it all out on plywood to see what works and what does not
2) Fix anything such as turnouts or ?? that does not work
3) Lay ground cover and effects/ automobile roadways/lakes/ponds/mountains etc
4) Perminantly lay the track on bedding and make the set up a perminant fixture in our basement.
I will need lots of advice. I dont have anyone with any model train knowledge I can ask. Thanks for your help in advance. Let me know if you think my steps 1-4 sound reasonable with this. Here are some pictues again of what I have to work with:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Switch #3 and #4 and you should be good to go. Do scenery last once track and
everything is in place. You got a lot there to get started with.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

That is a very interesting and complex layout based on the control panel
diagram. It appears to be HO. Is that correct?
The track was obviously broken up into electricaly isolated blocks which
is why the switches located in the several sections of track. I would assume,
(you would have to verify) that these are double pole double throw switches
possibly with a center 'off' so you could choose from either of 2 power packs). 
For them to work you
would use plastic insulated joiners in the track where shown on the panel.

I also notice that the turnouts are controlled by the switch/buttons along
the bottom and all neatly numbered. Are the wires attached?

Is all of this wiring intact or will you be starting over?

Most likely the track, turnouts and other parts are brass. This will
require continual attention to assure electrical contact with the loco
wheels. Most layouts today are nickle silver. That avoids the
brass corrosion problem.

You are at the right place to get advice on how to do whatever puzzles
you. The first step along that way is to tell us what exists. Is the track
laid on a base? (show in pic) Is it in short sections or flex track? Are the wires intact?
Have you tested the locos to see
that they run? You can do this by connecting wires to the track
terminals of the power pack and touching the loco wheels. 
Some wheels may not be power pickup but at least 2 on each loco
truck should be.

Fill us in on the facts and we'll be off to the races.

Don


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks Don here are my answers to your questions that I can answer today:

1) It appears to be HO. Is that correct? Answer: Yes it is all an HO guage.

2) The track was obviously broken up into electricaly isolated blocks which
is why the switches located in the several sections of track. I would assume,
(you would have to verify) that these are double pole double throw switches
possibly with a center 'off' so you could choose from either of 2 power packs). 
For them to work you would use plastic insulated joiners in the track where shown on the panel. 
Answer: Im not sure about the switches, but of the several sections of track I found there were plastic connectors which I assumed isolated sections of the track for possibly running 2 engines at the same time off of the 2 controllers??? Is my assumptions correct there you think???

3)I also notice that the turnouts are controlled by the switch/buttons along
the bottom and all neatly numbered. Are the wires attached? 

Answer: The wires are attached to the back of the neatly set up control box, however its a "Rats" nest of little thin "telephone wire". There are no numbers, I will have to trace each one. I will take a picture tonight and post one. Obviously there are no wires connected to any of the track portions at this time so I will have to figure out where everything goes??

4) Is all of this wiring intact or will you be starting over? 

Answer: It appears all the wiring on the controller box is there but after that, there are no wires to the table or track??

5) Most likely the track, turnouts and other parts are brass. This will
require continual attention to assure electrical contact with the loco
wheels. Most layouts today are nickle silver. That avoids the
brass corrosion problem. 

Answer: Yes, all of the track appears to be brass. Some of it has corrosion obviously on it from sitting up in an attic for 30 years or more?? will regular brass cleaner help this? I did find some actual "track cleaner" in the lot of train stuff we found.

6) Is the track laid on a base? (show in pic) Is it in short sections or flex track? Are the wires intact? 

Answer: No the track is not on a base, the track is all in a box for now. These are all short sections of track. Some of the track/connectors appear to have been soldered at one time. There are no wires intact on any of the track. We do have a small train set up that has some of the "EZ-track" which shows up in some of my pictures above, but this came with my son's new train, not the layout that was his grandfathers. I do not intend to use the EZ track as it does not fit well with the older brass track. Should I use the EZ track as well in combination with the brass?

7) Have you tested the locos to see that they run? 


Answer: I have tested all the loco's. All but one or 2 run well. The 2 that do not run well need some sort of cleaning attention as they go around the track with the help of your hand given them a nudge every now and then.



Thanks for your help everyone!! :appl:


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

DonR is spot on as usual. The 2 switches on the bottom lower left and right, what is it labeled? These may be for the reversing loops. Your wife's dad did a great job on this panel considering it is 26+ years ago, he knew his stuff! Check if the block switches are DPDT center off, 3 clicks. I am sure they are as it appears he did things right. Can you do a pic from the back of the panel?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Reliability man
First your project sounds great. You will make that boy very happy.
All the info from Don R was good.( as usual)
I read your message, and the replies to his questions, with interest. Rather than cover any of the same ground; I am going to offer a couple of suggestions for you to consider.
1) Rather than trying to clean and re-use the old brass track; replace it with new nickel-silver track. This will make the whole layout more reliable and require less cleaning. Resulting in less frustration, and a happier kid. Brass rail needs constant cleaning. That's why the manufactures got away from it. You mentioned having "brass cleaner; and finding "track cleaner." If the brass cleaner is Brasso, or a similar product i would not use it on the track. It's very toxic and will gum up the track and wheels.
What kind of track cleaner did you find? Liquid, abrasive block, or what?
2) We on this forum are glad to help; but a good book can help a lot too.I'm an N-scaler and I usually recommend "guide to N-scale model railroading" I'm going to ask The HO modelers out there to suggest Their favorite HO equivalent to this excellent beginner's book.
3) If (and only if) you have to replace any wiring; replace the telephone wire with a bigger size. 18ga.- 20ga. If you have to do the work, you might as well build in an extra bit of reliability. 
What amount of room will be available around the layout?
Will the track layout, as shown reduced on the control panel, fit in full size on a 4'x8' sheet of plywood?


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Bwells said:


> DonR is spot on as usual. The 2 switches on the bottom lower left and right, what is it labeled? These may be for the reversing loops. Your wife's dad did a great job on this panel considering it is 26+ years ago, he knew his stuff! Check if the block switches are DPDT center off, 3 clicks. I am sure they are as it appears he did things right. Can you do a pic from the back of the panel?


Here are some pictures of the switches of the lower left and lower right. Between your comments and Don's I believe I am starting to figure out this set up. The toggel switches on the board have 3 positions the way my father in law made this. These positions are Left, Middle and Right. I am assuming when the switch is to either the left or right, this is providing power to the section of track shown on the board from either the left or right controller and the middle position is a "neutral" where no power is being provided to the section of track in question. The "up and down" switches at the bottom of the track correlate to the turn outs numbered on the board. Depending on what turn out you whant switched to the desired position you would flip the switch at the bottom of the control board. What do you think the lower 2 switches you are mentioning do for the operation? I have taken several pictures of the switches you have pointed out (both front and back of the switches) the back of the overall board and the labeling job he did for the turnouts on the back of the board. What do you think of how this worked?? Thanks


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

traction fan said:


> Reliability man
> First your project sounds great. You will make that boy very happy.
> All the info from Don R was good.( as usual)
> I read your message, and the replies to his questions, with interest. Rather than cover any of the same ground; I am going to offer a couple of suggestions for you to consider.
> ...


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

ThHe corrosion on the bridge piece looks more like that particular piece is steel rail. Brass usually corrodes with a somewhat greenish/blackish color. Steel rail is the worst for corrosion and requires more cleaning than brass. (I could be wrong on this - just my observation from what I see in the picture).

You can make brass work. I used it for years without too many issues. Just a periodic wipedown with isopropyl alcohol - 90%. How often? When I noticed my locomotives were starting to not run smoothly.

That said, I do think you will need to remove and maybe replace the rail joiners. They tend to corrode also , and if corroded will not conduct electricity well or maybe not at all.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

By chance, did he work for the phone company?


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

If you are going to live up to your name then as others have said junk the existing old track and get some nickel silver laid. It will save you hours of frustration. The locos might not run too well either being in the attic for forty years but you might be able to achieve some succes by dismantling and cleaning. Standards have changed immeasurably in that time frame so running and detail won't be up to current standards, but if you're prepared to put up with that's fine. Couplings look like the old horn hook type so won't get remote coupling like the current crop. It will be an interesting project so good luck.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

The 2 connectors in the upper right and left (1/2x3") are amphenols used in the telecommunications industry and have a cable with 25 pairs of wires (24 to 26 gauge). This is how he connected the panel to the table is my guess.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DavefromMD said:


> ThHe corrosion on the bridge piece looks more like that particular piece is steel rail. Brass usually corrodes with a somewhat greenish/blackish color. Steel rail is the worst for corrosion and requires more cleaning than brass. (I could be wrong on this - just my observation from what I see in the picture).
> 
> You can make brass work. I used it for years without too many issues. Just a periodic wipedown with isopropyl alcohol - 90%. How often? When I noticed my locomotives were starting to not run smoothly.
> 
> That said, I do think you will need to remove and maybe replace the rail joiners. They tend to corrode also , and if corroded will not conduct electricity well or maybe not at all.


Brass is a lot more trouble to clean than nickel silver, but that doesn't make it unworkable. Steel track, in my opinion, isn't worth it -- although at least one person on these boards disagrees with me on that.

Corroded joiners may or may not be an issue. If they were soldered, they're probably still fine. If not, sometimes a shot of contact cleaner will make them good as new.


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Bwells said:


> By chance, did he work for the phone company?


No he was a Civil Engineer. Although he sure had a lot of old phone stuff around like he collected it or torn a building down with a lot of it in it??????


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Cycleops said:


> If you are going to live up to your name then as others have said junk the existing old track and get some nickel silver laid. It will save you hours of frustration. The locos might not run too well either being in the attic for forty years but you might be able to achieve some succes by dismantling and cleaning. Standards have changed immeasurably in that time frame so running and detail won't be up to current standards, but if you're prepared to put up with that's fine. Couplings look like the old horn hook type so won't get remote coupling like the current crop. It will be an interesting project so good luck.


Yes they are the horn type couplings. I do have my sons newer train that has the more realistic looking couplings. I have found that the 2 style of couplers do not work well together.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

More likely than not he had access to abandoned telco key system cables in
an office. I wired an old N scale layout using these wires simply
because they were available. i would not do that again. The single
strands broke easily.

I'm very glad to see the terminal boards on the back of the panel.
That is going to make rewiring so much easier.

It may cost a few $ but you would be doing yourself a favor
by replacing the teleco wires with new. You might start looking
to see if there is an electrical supply store close by where you can
get rolls of Red, Green, Black, (for turnouts) and several other colors (for
track busses) in 20 gauge or preferably less. Stranded if possible, solid if not,

Inspect the back of the panel and make certain that each switch
is wired to a terminal board on the back. If so then the thing to
do is undo all of the telco wires that formerly went to the layout
leaving the existing switch to terminals wiring in tact.

You have verified that the panel switches do have a middle off and
the left or right do control which power pack is assigned to that track
'block'. The purpose is to be able to control two separate
trains running at the same time. But it is hectic to use.
It's a shame you are not going DCC. 99% of these would
be eliminated if you were.

The plastic rail joiners are indeed intended to electrically isolate the
various track 'blocks' powered through those panel switches.

I'm have never used the buttons across the bottom that he used for
turnout control. So I don't know how you access the terminals
in them. You'll want to remove the telco wires from these
also, Leave the heavier 'buss' wires connected.

The two lower switches, as mentioned, do appear to be his
'reverse loop' controls. Will have to recheck the layout for the
reverse loop. That is a section of track that would turn a loco
around to go the opposite direction on the same track. Have you
seen such?

When you rewire you'll want to use cable ties to make cables of
the wires so you won't have the traditional 'rats nest' of wires.

Your next step is to decide whether you will use the old brass
track. If you keep it you'll want to clean it as the guys have suggested. You'll
need to solder 'drops' thru a hole in the table for each isolated
section. This would be connected to a pair back to the terminal
board indicated for that particular section. Work your way around
the layout until all are connected to the terminal blocks. Test the
conductivity after each one is connected. This should get you up and 
running for loco testing.

But if you decide to do as recommend, replace it all with new
nickle silver, you would want code 100 flex track that is much
easier to work with than the sections and afford much better
and smoother train operation and electrical conductivity.

Then we'll tackle the turnout connections. What make are the
turnouts? Is the 'motor' connected on the side of the turnout or
under the table?

Maybe after you get the layout running you'll want to
convert the couplers on the older cars to Kadee knuckle
couplers so your sons cars and the old cars are
compatible. That is a good project for a cold rainy
day.

Don


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

The barrier strips across the back are for the track power which feeds the upper right telco connector and the upper left telco connector (loose) is for the turnout power.
Do you intend to use this panel as it is track specific? If so it can be done but I see some extraneous components that are not needed. Is this the track plan you want?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm not big on liquid track cleaners. If the cleaner you found dates back several years it might have gone bad, contain harmful toxic solvents, or not been all that good to start with. My recommendation would be to discard it and the brass rail track; which WILL be a major pain to keep clean and reliable. You would not be "wasting" anything by getting rid of
something that is unreliable and replacing it with something more reliable.Are you, "reliability" man?
A better track cleaning method would be to use an abrasive block made specifically for cleaning track. They are sold under the name "bright boy" at train shops and @ walthers.com. They have gotten pricey, but you only need one, and if you clean the block, it should last for years.Good investment and very popular in the hobby.
Clean the block with a silicone, grease less, and electrically conductive, spray lubricant called LPS-1. It comes in a spray can with a long tube, as does WD-40. However don't substitute WD-40 as it is greasy (kerosene) and can goop up your track. Also don't substitute LPS-2 or LPS-3(from the same Co.) as these last two do not conduct electricity. ( nor will the track with the wrong type stuff on it.)
LPS-1 can also be applied to the track by spraying a little bit on a clean rag and wiping said rag on the track. It also works with track cleaning cars, that drag a Masonite block attached to the bottom. LPS-1 leaves a very thin coating on the rails which helps the trains run better and resists corrosion. A good source for LPS-1 is Grainger.com.
Lastly, fine grit( 200-400gt) can be used to LIGHTLY sand the rail tops and remove any deposits.

Good luck! 

P.S. I envy you for having so much space! I live in California, where basements are a scarce as honest lawyers.
Have fun!


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Cleaning the track is not the problem. It is brass and needs to be put in the trash. The turnouts are "snap" switches which were designed to replace the 18" radius curves with no easement and probably a frog angle of 2 or 3 and the twin coil switch machines will not work on the newer Atlas turnouts. I think it is time to look at the layout and not the panel or the track. The "plan" is what I have in mind. With some quick calculations, this is big in order to get the height required to clear the crossings My guess is that we are looking at a 5x9 maybe 12 layout.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

This is a classic DC set up. I wonder if it was actually fully set up at one time. Probably was until the gentleman passed. I know that was the case with my father when he died around the same time. In those days, most track was sectional and the majority was brass. There are a lot of ways to keep brass track clean. So just because it is brass is not the reason to change it. The other thing to keep in mind is that he built this before the internet. In those days, wire was expensive on a relative basis. It was common to scavenge most anything you could find. 

The rolling stock in the picture looks to be a mix of Athearn, Mantua and TYCO. Athearn and Mantua were comparable to the best you could buy short of brass rolling stock. 

In those days the horn hook coupler was the NMRA sponsored coupler. Kadee's were around, but not widely used. Knuckle(modern) and horn hook couplers are not compatible. 

The way to start is to convert a few cars to transition cars. In this case you have a knuckle on one end and a horn hook on the other. That way you don't have to convert all the rolling stock to run all the trains.

In the case of the rolling stock, clean is a relative statement. The wheels on most of the cars will be plastic, so the time will not have had much impact on them. The engines are where the time will have the most impact. The grease and oils may have turned into a hard sludge material. That is what needs to be cleaned and redone with appropriate materials.

Your plan and goals are good. Because it is apart, the first thing I would do is make sure the old layout fits your current location. 

Layout design styles are a bit different today. A large table takes up a lot of space in a room. It may have to be modular to keep it in its present form. So it can be moved out of the way so to speak. The other issue with tables is reach, for construction, operation and maintenance. The foundation or bench work is one of the first things you do on a layout, so what it needs to be is a first consideration.

I would put two other things high on the list. The track needs to be made usable. Cleaned and made electrically acceptable. This includes the turnouts as well as the track. Unless your going to buy new engines, replacing the track will be the largest cost item. There is no getting around the cost of NS track. Especially the turnouts. What track can't be salvaged will have to be replaced. The current track is code 100. You would want to stick with that size. You can mix sizes, but it usually means a whole segment is one size or the other with the size change occurring at one point. The other issue will be the color differences. Even if you paint the track, the rail tops will be bare metal, either brass or silver. Brass track is no longer made, but you can still find it on e-bay and other places. You will have to make that choice when you know how much you need. 

The other item is the wiring. This is where I would tend to say you need to replace most of it. Because it is apart and you have to figure out what to connect any way. I would visit the NMRA a web site and study the wiring techniques, both DC and DCC. I expect you to be DC initially, but the wiring is actually quite similar and the NMRA has recommended colors for wires on a layout. You will be ahead if you use their guide and techniques. All layouts have electrical issues that require maintenance. Using the standard will minimize your headaches in the long run. Wire is relatively cheap on the internet. It is a good investment any way. 

Time has probably not been kind to the control switches or the power supplies, those will have to be worked like the track.

I'm sure it will be a fun project.
Good luck,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

DonR said:


> .
> 
> You have verified that the panel switches do have a middle off and
> the left or right do control which power pack is assigned to that track
> ...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

To take the easy question: DCC is Digital Command Control. It is a recent technology which uses a microprocessor on a circuit board installed in the locomotive to control the motor, direction, and functions (lights, horn, etc.). Because control comes from an electronic instructions packet generated by the command station, rather than controlling the voltage and polarity of the track, multiple locomotive operation and complicated wiring is greatly simplified.

If you are not familiar with it, I recommend that you read up on it before deciding not to use it.


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's replys so far. I have learned a lot. Im very new to this so I appreciate all the expertise given.:appl: I had no idea of the issues with the brass track. Thanks for the heads up with this. I have read around about how most are using the NS track and a few guys have given good tips on keeping brass track going. I don't know what to do at this point. It seems such a shame to scarp all that brass track, but from what I have read corrosion seems to be a big problem. I dont want to constantly have to maintain this track, my life is busy enough as it is. I am going to try to lay out what I have in the existing configuration to see what I have, then try to see how much it would cost to replace the brass with NS.:thumbsup:


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> To take the easy question: DCC is Digital Command Control. It is a recent technology which uses a microprocessor on a circuit board installed in the locomotive to control the motor, direction, and functions (lights, horn, etc.). Because control comes from an electronic instructions packet generated by the command station, rather than controlling the voltage and polarity of the track, multiple locomotive operation and complicated wiring is greatly simplified.
> 
> If you are not familiar with it, I recommend that you read up on it before deciding not to use it.


Thanks I will check into it, but for simplistic sake, can you convert most any older train engine over to DCC or is it relative for only new engines. In other words are my vintage 60's engines too old for DCC?

Thanks


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Relative to converting old engines to DCC. the simple answer is yes. you can. DCC will not make them run better, if they run rough or poorly on DC they will do the same with DCC. Some of the older Athearn motors have a stall current in excess of 3 amps. Decoders for that type model are no longer available that I aware of. They used to be. The others are doable. You have to have some soldering capabilities with older engines. The newer ones come with plugs and it is really a simple unplug plug board switch. This is something that can be decided a bit later. As has been indicated, the key is to wire the set up properly. This is true for DC as well as DCC. 

The issue is that engines with DCC decoders will run on DC, some better than others. DC engines will not run on DCC. There are some other control type systems either on the market or soon to be on the market that use DC power and wireless control. They still require a control card to be installed in the engine, but the power supply is DC in either case. obviously more to think about. Any sysyem beyond what you have will involve a fair cost, so it warrents some consideration based on what you want, when and at what expense.

Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

ggnlars said:


> Relative to converting old engines to DCC. the simple answer is yes. you can. DCC will not make them run better, if they run rough or poorly on DC they will do the same with DCC. Some of the older Athearn motors have a stall current in excess of 3 amps. Decoders for that type model are no longer available that I aware of. They used to be. The others are doable. You have to have some soldering capabilities with older engines. The newer ones come with plugs and it is really a simple unplug plug board switch. This is something that can be decided a bit later. As has been indicated, the key is to wire the set up properly. This is true for DC as well as DCC.
> 
> The issue is that engines with DCC decoders will run on DC, some better than others. DC engines will not run on DCC. There are some other control type systems either on the market or soon to be on the market that use DC power and wireless control. They still require a control card to be installed in the engine, but the power supply is DC in either case. obviously more to think about. Any sysyem beyond what you have will involve a fair cost, so it warrents some consideration based on what you want, when and at what expense.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the schooling. I would figure that technology would have advanced in the model train world but I had no idea?? That is very interesting. First thing is first, I guess I will contemplate what to do after I look at things closer. The brass track issue has me taken aback a bit. The controller set up had me scratching my head, but after all the input on here that mystery seems less obscure.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

The controller ( panel) can be broken down into 3 segments. First, 110 VAC across the top, 2nd track power and third turnout control. Don't worry about this yet. Your idea of laying out the track and turnouts first is good. You should have 14 short curved pieces of track (3") that are the extensions to the diverging rails on the turnouts. Start there and just lay out the track following the panel picture as best you can but you will need to adjust as you go. In one pic it looks like you have a ping pong table which is usually 5x9 so start on that. Most of the track will be 18" radii and some with a radius of 22, those will be for the outer loop I think. No need to join the track now, just lay it out as best you can and get a picture and post it. I'm real interested in how big this lays out to be. Brian


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

I dug through all the track and layed it out as best as possible. It appears to be WAY bigger than a 4x8 piece of plywood. I have layed it out on our ping pong table. The neon green line taped on the table represents a 4x8 piece of plywood. It does fit nicely on a 5x9 board. I dont necessarily have the curves or straight peices of track in their correct positions when this board was running, however I believe I have the basic layout down minus a few short pieces that need adjusting. Now that the layout is mostly laid down here are a few questions if I plan to convert to Code 100 track:

1) Would you use flex track on any portion of this layout?
2) Can flex track be cut to length?
3) Im not sure how the bridge and bridge supports connect? 
4) I dont know what he did for incline approach for the 3 inch risers? I see they make that twisty foam material for this now -Anny suggestions? Obviously a klenex box and books do not look very good!
5) Where is the best place online to purchase track?

Any other helpful comments are welcome!!


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Also another question that I had was the turnouts have atlas motors on them, can the motors be used on a code 100 turnout. I see atlas sells the whole sha-bang, (motor, turnout, switch wires etc for around $17). 

I have also noticed a large difference in track manufactures as far as pricing goes. What brand of track do people suggest? I would also assume that its not good to mix track manufuactures or not?

Thanks


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Do you have the room space so you can build that layout? It would be
fairly simple to build a wider frame work and lay another piece of plywood
to equal the size of your ping pong table.

You would do well to replace the brass track with N/S Flex. Likely, the most
economical would be code 100 Atlas flex. It is well made and is probably
the most used of all. 

Yes, you cut and bend flex track
to match your layout. The sections are joined the same as the precut
sections you have, with brass joiners. You would also need a small package
of insulated joiners to create the isolated 'blocks'. (which you would not
need if you went DCC). Code 100 track of one brand can usually be
used with other brands but staying with one would be best. Bachmann
EZ track must be adapted to work with non Bachmann track. It is also
more expensive. Model Train Stuff and Favorite Spot are two highly
recommended on line dealers but you would do well to check several
to get the best prices. The same with turnouts and other track
accessories. Prices do vary. The large Walther's sells the Shinohara
brand of track and turnouts that many of our members like. You should
check them also. My preference for turnouts is Peco Insulfrog. They are well
engineered and made so that you just do not have derailments with
them. They can use either the Peco twin coil motor or the slow motion
Torrtioise motor. Both recommended.

You can cut flex with a special 'nipper' from the hobby store, A Dremel
cutting wheel or a razor saw. You would also need a small file to 'dress'
the cuts. There are special techniques for joining flex on curves that we
can discuss when and if you go with it.

I do see the 'reverse loop' that the 2 switches in lower left of your panel control.
It is formed by the turnout on the middle right going into the loop under the
bridge and returning to the same track again on the right. This loop would have
to be isolated by insulated joiners whether DC or DCC. Without them the track would
be a short circuit. That section would be powered through that panel switch,
not from the buss feeding the rest of the layout. The reason for this is that
when you have a loop like this the 'right' rail of the 'top' turnout joins the
'left' rail at the bottom turnout, thus a short. The panel switches reverse the
polarity in the track so that they match.

In general, most Atlas turnout motors will fit any Atlas turnout. So you could
move those. I am concerned tho, usually you can see the screw terminals
where wires fasten to Atlas motors, yours do not show. Do these turnouts say
Atlas on them? Are the wired screws visible on the bottom? A pic of a complete
turnout would help.

Woodland Scenics makes a foam riser kit that you mention. You could use it
to connect the base track with that on the bridge. You can see how it works on this:

http://www.trainsetsonly.com/page/T...P9hsjbBieS4QM_SAw7x1P7bj1VGbDeistkaAj1a8P8HAQ

Don


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Don, I think I see 2 reverse loops in this plan. Brian


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I would use flex track for all of it. I've always used Peco track which is very good so I can't comment on others. It can be cut and joined as required. I think you can buy it in boxes of 24 which saves a little, each length is 3ft. The old point motors might work but I don't know if they'll fit on Peco points, but they're llikely to be a bit iffy in operation due to age. You can mix track/point manufactures as long as you stick to the same code profile. IMO Peco code 83 would be the most accurate for the U.S. scene, but no reason you couldn't use code 100.

That's quite a project but not too onerous if you tackle it bit by bit. Good luck.


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

DonR said:


> Do you have the room space so you can build that layout? Answere: The wife gave me approval so Im half way there!!
> 
> There are special techniques for joining flex on curves that we
> can discuss when and if you go with it.
> ...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Bwells said:


> Don, I think I see 2 reverse loops in this plan. Brian


It is kinda hard to follow in those pics and my old eyesight may
be playing tricks but so far I don't see the 2nd reverse loop. Point
me to it.

Don


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

In post #1 with the panel, I see a reverse loop thru block 16. 2nd reverse loop is from turnout 14 thru block 17 over the bridges and thru blocks 2, 8, and 13. Assuming the 2 switches in the lower left are for cab a and the 2 switches in the lower right are for cab b, I don't see how he controlled both loops. It seems both sides need another switch for the second loop. Not a big deal yet though. I just love this panel stuff, trying to figure out someone had in mind is fun!


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Reliabilityman: Read this post and it explains the difference between snap switch and the customline. The customline will change your dimensions alot where as the snap switch would be equal to what you have. You are already wide with 5 feet width and the Mark IV customline turnouts will require more room but offer more reliability and looks.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?19364-Atlas-Switches-Differences


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Your question about what to do about the elevation change would be to use the "cookie cutter" method and this picture is better than I can explain it.

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/D...iew-cookie.jpg
The idea is to make cuts in your plywood and raise parts of it on wood risers. By leaving portions of the plywood connected to the main sheet, you naturally get fairly smooth transitions. You can also use the cookie-cutter method with extruded foam, as I did with my layout:


This was posted by jdetray on modelrailroadforum, He did a nice job.


Okay, the link did not work, let me try again
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?32047-first-layout/page2


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

*Turnouts front and back*

For Don and Bwells, I snapped some pictures of the turnouts both front and back for this layout. As it turns out (pun intended) I have 3 different manufactures of turnouts in this collection. Don was spot on when I said I had an Atlas turnout and it tunrs out it really wasnt. The 3 manufactures are 1) Casadto (Made in Italy) 2) AMH (Made in italy) and finally 3) Atlas (made back in the good ol USA) . Most of what I have are atlas however here are front and back pitures of the 3 in order. Can you guys tell me what model of turnout I would have to replace these with such as a #6 etc? Thanks Bwells for the information on turnouts but the other link you have on the incline does not work.


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

*More turnouts*

Here is the rear of the atlas and a comparison picture with a ruler. I noticed the one turnout has a curved section of track (the Casdto Italy turnout). What would be a replacement for this one? Thanks I am learning a lot from you all!!:appl::thumbsup:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Turnout #2 is a 22" outside radius curve.

There are two with the # 6 on them.

The AHM appears to be #4 or similar.

The long Atlas might be a # 6.

Don


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Bwells

You are right. Turnout 14 does begin a 2nd
reverse loop. I had to draw it out using red and black
pencils to 'see' it.

Looking again at the panel. I think the controls for these
two reverse loops are bottom left and bottom right.

The power pack selection is done by the DPDT center off
switches in each block.

Me oh my! I do hope for a DCC decision. That would make
the operation of this layout so much simpler, to say nothing
of the wiring simplicity.

Don


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Don, okay, I think I see it now. I was thinking of the left/right being cab and not loops. How about cab A DC and cab B DCC, that should gum up the works! That is what I did as I have a lot of old DC junk that I like to run and don't want to convert it.

Reliability: sorry the link on the incline didn't work but goggle model railroad cookie cutter and you will find the way to do it. I think it is better than the foam risers as it forms it's own transition from level to grade. Try a search on this website as well.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Rely: You were a busy man this past weekend and did a superb job of laying out the track. I knew it had to be larger than a 4x8 but not by how much, excellent work and photos.

Crunch time now. Is this the plan you want and if so do you want to use the track/turnouts you have or go with nickel silver? The latter will be somewhere around 500 bucks for turnouts, switch machines, flex and cork if you go that route.

I do have a few suggestions on the track plan as a lot of people do but do you foresee DCC in your future? NCE Power cab for $150 but your old locos go in the trash and new ones are $100. 

A lot to think about so you would be starting from scratch as opposed to using what you have. Not quite sure how much you are into this train **** so think it thru and weigh the numbers and the time it will take to do.

Brian


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Try this on your brass track and maybe it will work and save you a lot of cash. It is not abrasive like sand paper but if it brings a shine to the tops that's good.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-4-875...um-Grit-Drywall-Sanding-Sponge-9095/100321145


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

I think I am going to buy all new NS Code 100 track and turnouts. This old brass stuff is pretty corroded. I may not buy the bumpers though since an engine usually dosent sit at the end of a bumper, not that it will save me much money. The boy got excited and started to populate the psuedo layout with all the stuff we found. Check out the pictures. In the above string I was not sure if anyone confirmed the # of the track turnout so I posted a better picture. If you know what # design of turnout I should order with this atlas let me know? Is is a #4, #6 etc.

Thanks


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Reliabilityman said:


> I think I am going to buy all new NS Code 100 track and turnouts. This old brass stuff is pretty corroded. I


''I've seen the light!' much like that scene with John Belushi and James Brown in The Blues Brothers! I'm so pleased you've made that decision. You won't regret it! Seriously you've saved yourself hours of frustration.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

It should say on the back. If it says snap switch it is a #3 and have a lot sharper angle on the diverging rails than a #4. It is no way a #6. Take a section of the curved track and lay it on the turnout. if the contours match it is a snap switch.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you are going to replace the brass track with nickle silver do
go with flex track. You can bend or cut it as your layout dictates
and that will help you align with replacement turnouts that may
not be exactly the same dimensions as the old ones. It will also
do away with a lot of the joiners and provide a better 
electrical conductivity.

Don


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Yep, totally agree with Don, flex everywhere.

Here is something I found and not my words,

A snap switch is made so the diverging track has a constant radius through the turnout including beyond the frog. Until recently that was 18", but Atlas now has some nickel silver one in 22" as well. All the older brass will be 18". The switch is a drop in replacement for an Atlas 18" curve piece or for an Atlas 9" straight piece. You can lay an 18" curve on top and it will line up with the curved leg.

#4 switches have curves in the part of the turnout that is thrown, but both legs are straight beyond the frog. An Atlas #4 is actually a 4 1/2. It is not a drop in replacement for any Atlas curve.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

The one you show is definitely a #4 Snap switch and as Bwells said the newer Atlas switches have a different turn radius so the layout will come out a little different than what you have now. Flex track would take care of most of the differences. Even the Atlas custom line turnouts are different. 

Atlas has a track planner download that you can use to recreate, as close as possible, what your dad had and it's free. It will tell you just what you need for track. It will be in sectional track but you will have an idea of what you need and can still use flex track for most of the layout. Atlas flex track is very easy to use. There are templates available to help with keeping curves at the right radius.

Magic


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I shouldn't bother with any track planners, just get stuck in and lay track, turnouts first until it looks right. Don't worry about slight differences in turnout radii , and has been said the disparity will be taken care of by the flex track.


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

AH-HA! Thanks Fellas. I checked the back of the Atlas turnout and BAM! Back of the ties in small print it says "SNAP SWITCH". All along I was looking at the back of the motor mount-DUH!!


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Keep in mind a Snap Switch is different than a #4. You probably should replace like for like or your track geometry may not work.
Also, just a suggestion, is to eliminate the reverse loop through block 16. Keep turnout #10 and loose #7 and stop the loop before the crossover. Use it as a siding to some kind of industry but it will let block 17 and 2 decrease in grade a lot better. The grade from turnout 14 to block 17 is going to be tough but I think I have a plan.


Did you research the Cookie-cutter method"?





Edit: Scratch the idea of eliminating block 16 as you wouldn't be able to turn the train back around, sorry.


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Bwells said:


> Keep in mind a Snap Switch is different than a #4. You probably should replace like for like or your track geometry may not work. ---Thanks
> 
> 
> Did you research the Cookie-cutter method"? Yes I did. I saw some nice designs, however, Im not so sure I would be good with cutting the table up like that. I might use the ideas for some ponds or construction holes in the bottom of the table for scenery. ?????
> ...


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## Smokinapankake (Sep 8, 2011)

That layout looks suspiciously like the "HO Railroad that grows", as featured in a book of the same name by Kalmbach Publishing. Think it was a series that ran in the magazine in the late 50's, early 60's. Find the book and you should have all the information you need to build it.. 

Hope someone else hasn't already said this - I just saw the first picture and thought "Eureka! I'm pretty sure I know what that track plan is!"


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

:appl:By gosh, you hit it on the head!

http://s658.photobucket.com/user/Charly921/media/Avatars/HORailroadthatGrowsWScenery.jpg.html


:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Reliabilityman (Jul 10, 2012)

Smokinapankake said:


> That layout looks suspiciously like the "HO Railroad that grows", as featured in a book of the same name by Kalmbach Publishing. Think it was a series that ran in the magazine in the late 50's, early 60's. Find the book and you should have all the information you need to build it..
> 
> Hope someone else hasn't already said this - I just saw the first picture and thought "Eureka! I'm pretty sure I know what that track plan is!"


Yes that is what it is alright. I have bought the book thanks to guys off this forum. It was published back in the 60's so the technology has changed for sure. Im getting some good advice from these guys on here how to build something slightly more modern using the existing layout. I did not get the table built this past weekend. Almost though.


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