# Lionel Diesel Switchers?



## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

I always wanted a diesel switcher. There'a a black 1960s Santa Fe (might be an A.T. & S.F.?) and a black 1970s Pennsy for sale. I don't have the model numbers. Both were cleaned up and are ready to run. Any idea how these stack up against one another? Any specs on them? I'm not having much luck with my internet searches. Thanks!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I have 3 diesel switchers, 2 from the era you mention.

But without the numbers, I can't be certain and don't want to stear you wrong.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The diesel switchers have a single motor and most of them have magnetraction. They will pull 10 post war cars ok if the cars are lubed. Model numbers would help.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As Bruce says, model numbers would be key to figuring out what the capabilities are.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

As for postwar, Lionel switchers from the early 50s tend to be better performers. As time went on the switcher was where a lot of 'cheapening' was done. By the 1960s the switcher was often the poorest quality most feature weak item in the catalog. This dearth of quality continued through the MPC era and with K-Line and Williams products.

Since the mid 2000s Lionel has begun to offer some uber expensive high quality (READ: HIGH PRICED) switchers.


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## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

areizman said:


> As for postwar, Lionel switchers from the early 50s tend to be better performers. As time went on the switcher was where a lot of 'cheapening' was done. By the 1960s the switcher was often the poorest quality most feature weak item in the catalog. This dearth of quality continued through the MPC era and with K-Line and Williams products.
> 
> Since the mid 2000s Lionel has begun to offer some uber expensive high quality (READ: HIGH PRICED) switchers.


I still have to get the numbers, BUT, thanks, for how complex can this be?
There are a few S.F. 1950s' switchers listed in one of my Doyle books. And, I'm sure there are only a few Pennsy 1970s' switchers but I do not have the Doyle book for the 1970s. Sounds like the older switcher is the way to go though I'd really like to have a Pennsy roadname.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess complex is in the eyes of the beholder. It's a lot easier for folks to help you with accurate information. If there are "only a few" switchers listed for the roadname, which one of those is it?


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## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

Ok, I've got one of the numbers. It's a Lionel #8471 Pennsy switcher. My two books stop at 1969. Is this a good engine? Does it have a horn or bell? Is it know for any problems? It must be 1970s. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!
DavyR


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's a locomotive from the mid-70's. It's a single PulMore motor, no horn or bell. The maintenance information is in the Lionel Supplement 1-9 here, page 1-43. 

Lionel Maintenance Supplements

Use the pull-down menu and select the first one.

It's probably a decent locomotive, but it's going to be fairly light and have limited pulling power. No MagnaTraction or traction tires.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

MPC era, circa 1973-74. Reported in my Greenberg book as being hard to find. No horn or bell. A simple switcher. As Lisa Simpson would say, "Meh."


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## PW_Lionel_Collector (Jul 13, 2009)

Hello Davy - 

As stated above the Lionel #8471 Pennsylvania switcher were made in the MPC era during 1973-74. This switcher has (Operating Headlights, Illuminated Markers, Pullmor motor, Remote forward/neutral/reverse, Self centering couplers and die cast trucks/wheels). This switcher will be dramatically lighter than any similar Postwar era switcher and therefore won't be able to pull as much. The color of this switcher is actually a dark green (Olive color). There isn't any horn, etc. Since there aren't any traction tires (I believe) the cost of maintenance should be the same. The Postwar Lionel 6220 A.T & S.F. NW2 switcher will be more pricey due to the fact it has more of a collector market and rarer. These switchers were made between 1949-1950. It has a bell ringing sound, that is command control. Overall I believe the Postwar switcher would give a greater return. It carries more cars, heavier, less likely to break.

Please note that I'm bias for Postwar Lionel trains and that's basically all I collect.

- Hope this helps

- Jason

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-8471...l_RR_Trains&hash=item2319030f27#ht_500wt_1263

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-Post...l_RR_Trains&hash=item1e6a58efed#ht_500wt_1263

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-623-...l_RR_Trains&hash=item4ab33d1307#ht_500wt_1263

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-SANT...l_RR_Trains&hash=item3cc1420a9a#ht_600wt_1248


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the bell ringer is a LOT more expensive that this one, that's a factor.


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## ADCX_ROB (Jan 27, 2012)

DavyR said:


> I always wanted a diesel switcher. There'a a black 1960s Santa Fe (might be an A.T. & S.F.?) and a black 1970s Pennsy for sale. I don't have the model numbers. Both were cleaned up and are ready to run. Any idea how these stack up against one another? Any specs on them? I'm not having much luck with my internet searches. Thanks!


The 8471 is a fine running loco and does, in fact, have traction tires. No horn, no bell.










It is mechanically nearly identical to the 1960's black & white versions of this type switcher offered in ATSF markings:

616:










617:










Both of these have MagneTraction and horn. The weak part of their design is the construction of the stamped aluminum motor frame, it loosens up over time causing(repairable) operational issues. They are somewhat better runners than the ATSF 633 & 634 switchers cataloged in the same time frame.


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## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks for all the info. I'm learning. I'm going to go with the Pennsy 8471. The Sante Fe sold whatever number it was. Being from Pittsburgh the Pennsy roadname will remind me of the old days when I used to see these running around the railroad yards that I used to observe. I need to go out and see if there are still any in service despite the loss of so much industry here. Would be very cool to have a horn but I can live without it for now. Thanks again! Happy railroading to yinz!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

DavyR said:


> Thanks for all the info. I'm learning. I'm going to go with the Pennsy 8471. The Sante Fe sold whatever number it was. Being from Pittsburgh the Pennsy roadname will remind me of the old days when I used to see these running around the railroad yards that I used to observe. I need to go out and see if there are still any in service despite the loss of so much industry here. Would be very cool to have a horn but I can live without it for now. Thanks again! Happy railroading to yinz!


I search for them while I work.

I captured some Diesels,

in my road train thread...,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5388&page=2http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5388
I would like to capture an old steam loco for the thread.
One that has been sitting around hidden away in an old train house somewhere.:thumbsup:


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## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

big ed said:


> I search for them while I work.
> 
> I captured some Diesels,
> 
> ...


Great stuff! Love the scrap gondola that's just about scrap itself! And, the tracks crossing each other exiting the yard at about 75 degrees.


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## MD4310 (Feb 11, 2012)

*Getting an 8471*



DavyR said:


> Thanks for all the info. I'm learning. I'm going to go with the Pennsy 8471. The Sante Fe sold whatever number it was. Being from Pittsburgh the Pennsy roadname will remind me of the old days when I used to see these running around the railroad yards that I used to observe. I need to go out and see if there are still any in service despite the loss of so much industry here. Would be very cool to have a horn but I can live without it for now. Thanks again! Happy railroading to yinz!


How do you like your 8471 switcher? I have one on the way, and I'm told it has one working headlight, and you have to take the shell off to move the e-unit to change directions. These sound like mechanical problems that I'm hoping won't be hard to fix.


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## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

MD4310 said:


> How do you like your 8471 switcher? I have one on the way, and I'm told it has one working headlight, and you have to take the shell off to move the e-unit to change directions. These sound like mechanical problems that I'm hoping won't be hard to fix.


It has one headlight on the end opposite the cab. The E-unit works the same (3 positions) as any other loco but I don't see a lever to bypass it for forward only, if that's what you mean. (If not, you may have an E-unit problem.) It seems to have decent pulling power but I haven't tested it fully. Has a nice 'power noise' to it just like the 'big boys'. LOL! I'm a Pennsy fan! Looks great pulling my Pennsy boxcar. This boxcar, that I bought at a show years ago, must have been someone's creation for I don't believe Lionel ever made one.


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## MD4310 (Feb 11, 2012)

This link (http://www.postwarlionel.com/boxcar.html) has descriptions of several PRR boxcars if you want to add some. I like the looks of another: 27291.


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## ADCX_ROB (Jan 27, 2012)

DavyR said:


> ...The E-unit works the same (3 positions) as any other loco but I don't see a lever to bypass it for forward only, if that's what you mean. (If not, you may have an E-unit problem.)...


The 8471 is supposed to have a lever-down 100-4 E-unit with the lever easily accessible between the trucks in the area of the fuel tank.


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## MD4310 (Feb 11, 2012)

*The big switch*

The mystery begins to clear. It looks like someone took the trucks and working couplers off the 8471 switcher I bought and replaced them with some trucks and nonworking couplers from a model like the 8010 Santa Fe or 8153 Reading switchers. The 8471 motor is shown as a 3-position "E" unit, and the motor on the 8010/8111/8153/8182/8460/8472/8473/8569/8770 models is listed as "Manual and 2-position Reverse," whatever that means. In addition to the fixed couplers, the most visible evidence of the swap is that the rear trucks are plastic, not die-cast. I haven't run the switcher yet, but I took the shell off to look at the top of the motor and saw a switch lever that was folded over (since there's no slot in the top of the 8471 shell). This may explain the seller's comment that "to change direction of the unit you have to take the shell off to move the e-unit." It looks like I'll be looking for an 8354-15 truck assembly and 8354-100 motor truck assembly to restore the 8471 to its original condition. Live and learn.


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## ADCX_ROB (Jan 27, 2012)

The entire chassis has been swapped for a 8010/8111 chassis. It would be a lot easier to get another entire engine for the correct chassis as opposed to changing out the trucks and E-unit. 

The 8010/8111 came with both a manual lever reverse or a 2 position reverse. A 3 position E-unit can be installed on the same bracket if desired, wiring just one of the 2 field coils into the circuit for normal F-N-R operation.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

My old 249 postwar Scout is like that ... a 2-position e-unit. ADCX is correct ... the field has double windings, and the e-unit flips direction (F-R) by toggling which winding (direction) is used in the field. You can put in a conventional e-unit (f-n-r-n), and simply use just one of the field windings.


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## MD4310 (Feb 11, 2012)

*Sounds like a plan*

Thanks, guys. I'll go to the next train show with a list of model numbers of engines with the 3-position E-unit and see what I can find -- and I'll see if the train repairman who helps me has a 3-position E-unit he can install. I can't see much use for a switcher that can't reverse directions easily.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

MD4310 said:


> I haven't run the switcher yet, but I took the shell off to look at the top of the motor and saw a switch lever that was folded over (since there's no slot in the top of the 8471 shell). This may explain the seller's comment that "to change direction of the unit you have to take the shell off to move the e-unit."


Perhaps I'm asking the obvious, but can you simply unbend (straighten) the bent-over lever that's there, and then operate the loco with its existing 2-position e-unit (fwd-rev) ??? You won't have a neutral, but the thing would still reverse OK.

???

TJ


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## MD4310 (Feb 11, 2012)

From what I can tell by browsing online, nine switchers (8010 Santa Fe, 8111 DT&I, 8153 Reading, 8182 NIBCO Express, 8460 MKT, 8472 Coke, 8473 Coca-Cola, 8569 Soo, 8770 EMD) all had slots in the top of the shell so the lever on the 2-position unit could be operated manually. I imagine the chassis on my 8471 came from one of those. There isn't a slot on the 8471's shell, and so the lever was just bent over.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Oh.

I'd be revvin' up the ol' Dremel right about then ...

:thumbsup:

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The lever should be through the bottom. I checked the diagram. It is just like the 600 series postwar switchers. Interesting that you have a mix match of parts. I find it rare for a modern type engine. At least you got it figured out.

The 3 position e unit wit the arm down is the 100-4.

On the other hand maybe the shell was "switched"


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## DavyR (Jan 6, 2012)

MD4310 said:


> This link (http://www.postwarlionel.com/boxcar.html) has descriptions of several PRR boxcars if you want to add some. I like the looks of another: 27291.


Opps! Finally getting back to this. 
The body of this Pennsy Box Car with sliding doors of mine looks TOO new and clean as opposed to it's all-metal frame/trucks. The brownish body has the following in white along with other fine print CAPY, LDLMT, etc.:
*PENNSYLVANIA
PRR
26125*

And, the frame has:
*00-6464-009 LIONEL * stamped in it.

Must be a home made thing where they took an older Box Car and did a great new paint job on it.


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