# Advice please



## ianb26

Hi there,

I hope this is in the right forum. I am building/have built a 6' x 4' (1800mm x 1200mm) layout. At the moment it is connected to DC for testing purposes - inclines, curves, etc., - which is now almost complete except for tunnels scenery and other bits & pieces. I have a Digitrax DCS50 ready to go when I have completed my control panel - signals, points (as we call them here in Australia), and scenery lighting - to run DCC.
Now I need some help/advice. I have attached a jpg of my layout along with text to explain the volt readings at the track joints with circled numbers.

At the moment the running direction is anti-clockwise, but by using the crossovers at *PM 5 - PM 8*, direction can be reversed. This part of the layout is my dilemma as the polarity reverses on that section when going from straight running, through the crossovers to the other tracks. What do I now have to do to correct this "imbalance"? I do have some knowledge of DC, albeit 55 - 60 years ago when I was an apprentice electrician, (the brain cells aren't as good now as back then!) but am trying to come to grips with DCC. Once the crossovers are used I can institute reverse running, then back to normal. Also note in the layout jpg, there is a long station platform where points *PM 2 to PM4* are located. The platform ends just past the temporary power supply location. This platform is the common starting point.

What I would like to know - and I think this is correct - I need at least one auto-reversing unit at the crossover. Also where and how many droppers do I need to connect to the DCC Bus? Also do I need insulated rail joiners anywhere - (hopefully not!!). 

Sorry for such a long post, but I want to get moving on sorting out the electricals before doing the scenery and tunnels. (Upper tunnel on left end of layout at the points.) Only the first part of the left hand end of the crossovers are in the tunnel.


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## Cycleops

You don't say if the crossover is a self contained unit or made from four turnouts. No matter, you won't need any auto reversing units, but you will need insulated joiners at points 1, 2, 3 & 4. Sorry I've just seen its made from sectional track. And also on the straight sections between PM 6 & 7 and PM 5 & 8 plus one at 5. As for power feeds these would need to be at PMs 5, 6, 7, 8 & PM3 at the bottom. This should be enough to supply the whole layout. That's how I see it unless I've gone wrong somewhere!
You will also need an insulated joiner at R600 near PM4.


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## ianb26

Thanks Cycleops.

Would I require insulated joiners on both rails, or just one? Or better still, - if it's not too much trouble - would you be able to copy the attachment and mark the position of the joiners and send via PM? Also I thought of adding feed droppers at all the points where I have "+" & "-" marked. Would that be "overkill"?

At my age - 70's - I have forgotten a lot of my electrical theory, as I have been retired for about 15 years.  Therefore that is why I have posted this thread.

Thanks again for your reply.


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## Cycleops

No problem, I'll try to copy it and make some notes on the plan and pm you. I've had another look at it and your power feeds are all fine, except you have a few too many.


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## ianb26

Ok, thanks Cycleops.

Just cross out the power feeds I don't need.  They were where I measured the polarity and voltage on the joints. I assume the insulated joiners will prevent any shorts - if there are any? 

Those polarity and voltages: note on the 3 tracks on the left, 2 are "+" & "-" and 1 is "-" & "+".


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## JerryH

Since you have already discovered the polarity conflicts causing your shorts, you will need auto reversers or manual DPDT switches to avoid the shorts while running trains. The insulated joiners will prevent the shorts on the powered static track, but when the trains cross them, the short is made again.


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## mopac

If your layout is working fine with DC, it will work just fine with DCC.
A short is a short. If no short in DC you won't have any with DCC.
I don't think you can have too many feeders. I hope to have feeders
to each piece of track on my new layout. It might be overkill, but won't hurt a thing.


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## ianb26

Thanks Mopac for your reply.

If you refer to the 2 attachments in my original post, you will see in the second attachment where I state the main voltmeter drops from 15.9V to 4V indicating a short.


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## mopac

I must admit I did not look at the 2nd one. Volts all looked good on first and
I made my post. Maybe I am missing something but I don't know how you
could take measurements with a short. My DC transformer's circuit breaker
would blow with a short and shut off. Yes you have a voltage drop but I don't 
know if it is a short. Looking at the diagram of your layout I don't see a short.
I don't claim to be an expert though.


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## DonR

We had a very similar reverse loop problem to this on another layout
a few weeks ago involving a double crossover. 

I drew out your layout using red for 'left' rail and black for 'right'.
You should do the same. It would guide your track drop wiring.

The designers of a double crossover assumed it would connect
two parallel 'mainline' tracks. Thus it is internally connected
electrically to that end. Thus when a double crossover is
involved in a reverse loop situation all 4 tracks it is connected
to must be left rail RED right rail BLACK.

Thus when you connect your tracks in the 'parallel' manner
I suggest, the track design then creates TWO different sections that
would need to be isolated and use a reverse loop controller. 

#1 would be from the PM4 lower right turnout up into the 'figure 8'.
It would require insulated joiners between that turnout and
the track and again a 'trains length' within the 'eight'.

#2 would be from the PM2 lower left turnout up to the exit from the
'figure 8'. It would require insulated joiners to the left of
the lower left turnout and a 'trains length' toward the
eight exit.

I use the term trains length because if you have lighted passenger
cars you want them to be clear of the insulated joint when the
loco is crossing the next one else you would have a short again.

This would require two reverse loop controllers. I have seen Digitrax
AR-1's on Amazon for around 30.00 each.

The reverse loop controllers would take power from your main DCC buss.
The output of each would go to the isolated section associated with
it. They are fully automatic, usually placed under the table and once
installed you never bother with them again.

A short primer on how they work. When the loco wheels span
the insulated joiners a short circuit is created. The RL controller
senses that and very quickly reverses phase (polarity) of the isolated
section to match the main. The loco continues without pause and
when it spans the 'exit' insulated joiners another short is detected
by the controller and it again reverses the phase and the loco
continues on it way. Obviously this will work with DCC only else
the loco would reverse as polarity changed.

The crossing in the 'figure 8' would not require any
special insulated joiners or wiring. Track A current
does not connect to the rails of track B crossing it.

The slight voltage variations you are show are not of concern.
If they were greater you may want to increase the number of
track drops, or solder joints. 

On this layout I would have drops adjacent to the double crossover
in both tracks and also the main at the bottom. The isolated sections
would get their power thru the RL controller. It should get it's power
from the main buss.

Don


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## RT_Coker

This is one way to do the reverse-track-section (denoted in red). The thick-red-lines denote double-isolation-gaps. The bottom two double-isolation-gaps could be move back on their reverse-track-sections to suit your purposes. This all assumes that I have not misunderstood your layout.
Bob


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## DonR

Bob

I know you are pretty sbarp on these situations, but,
are you saying that the ONE isolated 'reverse loop' section is
the entire track shown in RED on your drawing?

Pretty long isolated section. 
Wouldn't that be open to more than one loco entering it
from any of the various turnouts? That could be quite an
electrical short. It is usually recommend that an isolated
section be no longer than the longest passenger train with
lighted cabooses, with only the two ends as open to entry.

Don


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## ianb26

Thanks for all your replies. I'm starting to get a bit overwhelmed now. 

Remember, *I am testing with DC, but the finished article will be DCC*.  So I realise that obviously I may be a bit off with those volt readings. As I said in reply to Cycleops, I have been retired from the electrical industry for 15 - 20 years, and the old brain cells aren't what they used to be. 

All I want to do is get things running properly and start on the scenery, etc. I eventually will suspend the layout from the ceiling of the garage, by ropes/wire and pulleys connected to a hand operated boat winch. "She who knows best" is pushing for this to happen. I want to get my car back in the garage to keep her's company. It's been on its lonesome for about 6 months now!!

In response to Mopac's reply, my DC controller is one I built myself from a kit. Using an input transformer of 240V AC to secondary of 6/9/12/15V then thru a bridge rectifier from the 12V AC for the DC, using the 15V AC for accessories.

Thanks again guys.


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## RT_Coker

Don,


DonR said:


> but,are you saying that the ONE isolated 'reverse loop' section is
> the entire track shown in RED on your drawing?


Yes!



DonR said:


> Pretty long isolated section.
> Wouldn't that be open to more than one loco entering it
> from any of the various turnouts? That could be quite an
> electrical short. It is usually recommend that an isolated
> section be no longer than the longest passenger train with
> lighted cabooses, with only the two ends as open to entry.


In my understanding this is always a problem (except for simple one-turnout-reverse-loop). The user (OP) is really the only one that can decide what suits his needs. I would have trouble controlling more than train-unit at a time on this layout, so I suggest the referenced solution. The “reverse-track-section” could be made into two reverse-track-sections by adding another double-isolation-gap” at the double-crossover. I also previously suggested the following to the OP, “”The bottom two double-isolation-gaps could be move back on their reverse-track-sections to suit your purposes.”, thus shortening the “reverse-track-section”.
Bob


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## ianb26

RT_Coker said:


> Don,
> 
> In my understanding this is always a problem (except for simple one-turnout-reverse-loop). The user (OP) is really the only one that can decide what suits his needs. I would have trouble controlling more than train-unit at a time on this layout, so I suggest the referenced solution. The “reverse-track-section” could be made into two reverse-track-sections by adding another double-isolation-gap” at the double-crossover. I also previously suggested the following to the OP, “”The bottom two double-isolation-gaps could be move back on their reverse-track-sections to suit your purposes.”, thus shortening the “reverse-track-section”.
> Bob


Now you've got me more confused than when I started.


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## ianb26

RT_Coker said:


> Don,
> 
> In my understanding this is always a problem (except for simple one-turnout-reverse-loop). The user (OP) is really the only one that can decide what suits his needs. I would have trouble controlling more than train-unit at a time on this layout, so I suggest the referenced solution. The “reverse-track-section” could be made into two reverse-track-sections by adding another double-isolation-gap” at the double-crossover. I also previously suggested the following to the OP, “”The bottom two double-isolation-gaps could be move back on their reverse-track-sections to suit your purposes.”, thus shortening the “reverse-track-section”.
> Bob


Now you've got me more confused than when I started. 

All I want to do, (and my grandson), is start at the bottom, round the outer track, straight through at the top - through points, oops sorry turnouts  then down the middle track through PM 1 & PM 3, then to the left at PM 4, through the X crossing then straight through PM 6 & PM 7 to the X crossing again down to lower tunnel, through PM 2, Then PM 3 and straight through PM 4 to PM 5, then through the crossover to PM 6, round the figure 8, back to PM 4, through PM 3 and PM 2 and to terminate at the original start. I will probably form another route using PM 8 & PM 7.


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## DonR

We understand that you wanted a continuous running layout
with some interesting routing. But you have a 'reverse loop'
situation that must be electrically correct or you will have
a short circuit.

I can understand your confusion when you read the discussion
of Bob and me. We both have a solution to your electrical
problem, either would work, but you will have to decide which
would work better for you.

Since you have had electrical experience you should have no
problem understanding the circuits. Think of the rails
as a 2 wire pair; that is the way the function.

Again, I suggest you
draw your layout Starting from the double crossover. Use
Red for one rail, and black for the other. You will then see
where a short circuit exists when a turnout is thrown.

It won't matter whether you test with DC or DCC. The short
will be there unless something is done.

But again to Bob, it seems to me that this layout would lend itself
well for more than one train running at the same time. It will
be DCC per the OP and thus both locos would be fully under
control of the operator. For that reason, I still prefer my
solution.

Don


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## tr1

*The letter"r"helps denote thecolor code and polarityof wires of main buss.*

DonR, I don't want to be a nit picker here, but I believe, you may have your color combinations
reversed. I think the NMRA recommended practices calls for the Right rail to be Red in color.
And the Left rail to be black in color. That is due to the layout started out most likely with dc
voltage. And was later converted to DCC. The color code for dc voltage is red =(+) and
black=(-). An easy way to remember this is with the letters that make up the word with an "r"
where the letter "r" can stand for right, and also the color red. That is how I keep the color code correct. Regard's,tr1


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## ianb26

tr1 said:


> NMRA recommended practices calls for the Right rail to be Red in color.
> And the Left rail to be black in color.


I looked on the NMRA web site and after a bit of digging, I discovered that is correct.



DonR said:


> Again, I suggest you
> draw your layout Starting from the double crossover. Use
> Red for one rail, and black for the other.


I'm about to do that tonight. I will attach to a later post.

Thanks


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## DonR

tr1 said:


> DonR, I don't want to be a nit picker here, but I believe, you may have your color combinations
> reversed. I think the NMRA recommended practices calls for the Right rail to be Red in color.
> And the Left rail to be black in color. That is due to the layout started out most likely with dc
> voltage. And was later converted to DCC. The color code for dc voltage is red =(+) and
> black=(-). An easy way to remember this is with the letters that make up the word with an "r"
> where the letter "r" can stand for right, and also the color red. That is how I keep the color code correct. Regard's,tr1


I just was not thinking of the NMRA, I most certainly defer to their
standards. The important thing tho is drawing out the rails as if they
were electrical wires. That always shows up the problems.

Don


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## MtRR75

tr1 said:


> NMRA recommended practices calls for the Right rail to be Red in color.
> And the Left rail to be black in color.


OK, I'm confused.

If there are no trains on the track, which rail is the right rail?
If I have an oval and run a train clockwise, then the right rail is the inside rail.
But if turn the train around, and run it counter-clockwise, then the right rail is the outside rail.

I suppose that this recommended practice makes sense for those who do not have reversing loops or Ys or turntables in their layout. But if you do have any of these things, it seems rather arbitrary which rail is the red rail -- as long as you are consistent throughout the layout.

Tell me if I am wrong and missed something.

By the way, I do have a reversing diagonal on my DC double loop layout. I wired the reversing diagonal with green and white wire (as opposed to red and black wire for the rest of the layout). This helped keep the reversing section straight in my head while running wires.

P.S. I also labelled my reversing switches on my control panel as Clockwise vs. Counter-clockwise (actually I used circular arrows). I find this easier to use than Forward vs. Reverse, since my trains can run in both directions.


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## tr1

*Polarity and direction of travel can be used as referances.*

Ok,I'm no expert by the way. In my opinion;however,the "right" rail is determined by the owner operator. Once that is determined.Maybe Through clock wise direction, Lets say .>facing north or what ever. Polarity(+)and (-).It's important to stay consistent.throghout the rails on the layout. You can use pushpins along with an ohm meter to help determine this. Or a traced drawing of your layout in two colors. Staying consistent is the owner operators responsibility in this instance. I hope this helps you, and good luck!
Also, you have to remember the layout may have started out as a "dc" layout.The dc color code is:
red wire=(+)black wire=(-).I hope this gives you a clue. Todd


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## DonR

MtRR75 said:


> OK, I'm confused.
> 
> If there are no trains on the track, which rail is the right rail?
> If I have an oval and run a train clockwise, then the right rail is the inside rail.
> But if turn the train around, and run it counter-clockwise, then the right rail is the outside rail.
> 
> I suppose that this recommended practice makes sense for those who do not have reversing loops or Ys or turntables in their layout. But if you do have any of these things, it seems rather arbitrary which rail is the red rail -- as long as you are consistent throughout the layout.
> 
> Tell me if I am wrong and missed something.
> 
> By the way, I do have a reversing diagonal on my DC double loop layout. I wired the reversing diagonal with green and white wire (as opposed to red and black wire for the rest of the layout). This helped keep the reversing section straight in my head while running wires.
> 
> P.S. I also labelled my reversing switches on my control panel as Clockwise vs. Counter-clockwise (actually I used circular arrows). I find this easier to use than Forward vs. Reverse, since my trains can run in both directions.


Yes some of this stuff can get confusing when we get too involved with
rules. The right/left rail identification is determined by
looking straight down onto a track running N/S. You
then follow it around using the selected colors.
The NMRA standard is good to follow, but there is no harm done
in using green and purple colors, or orange and brown. The two colors
are used simply to represent the two wires (track rails) in an electrical
circuit when there is an unusual situation such as this layout using 
a double crossover and a semi figure 8. When one of the rails, we'll say green, runs into or connect to one represented 
by purple, there is a short circuit. That's all it amounts to. We then figure out how to change
the wiring to make the layout work. That's where the isolated track
sections and the reverse loop controller enters in the picture.

You would need those switch identifications for a DC layout. The DCC
layout reverse loop controller is fully automatic and never needs
attention. If is usually located under the table near the track section
it will power.

Don


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## ianb26

DonR said:


> Yes some of this stuff can get confusing when we get too involved with rules.
> The two colors are used simply to represent the two wires (track rails) in an electrical
> circuit when there is an unusual situation such as this layout using a double crossover and a semi figure 8.
> The DCC layout reverse loop controller is fully automatic and never needs
> attention. If is usually located under the table near the track section
> it will power.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

I have marked up my layout with alternative routes. (Anti-clockwise & clockwise running with combinations of both). Would you mind looking at them for me and suggest where to put droppers, auto-reverser/s and, if required, insulated joiners.

Would you prefer the attachments posted here or in a PM?

Thanks.


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## DonR

I'll be glad to see your drawings and
help any way I can.

By all means post your track drawings here on this
thread. That way, members
can join in and make suggestions. Also, the discussions help
other modellers with their track designing.

Reverse loop problems are always of interest to the
members. The solutions vary widely and all profit by
discussing them.

Don


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## ianb26

OK Don,

Attached are 6 jpg's. 5 of them are the different routes I have traced out, and the 6th is the text for each of the routes. I hope they are readable. you will notice that there are Red & Black dots. Most of them are where I took voltmeter readings. I was thinking of using them as dropper points.

If you, or anyone else, has any comments to make, such as if I have gone "overboard" with dropper points, by marking on the layouts which ones should be deleted and where the auto-reverse unit/s and insulated joiners should be, it would be most appreciated.

Once I have all the electricals sorted out, then I can start enclosing the upper tunnel, and doing the scenery and villages. Then maybe my 9 y/o grandson can get to run some trains properly instead of in test mode. 

Thanks again.


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## DonR

Ian

If you have decided to use my suggestion to resolve your
reverse loop situation this is what you would do:

1. Place insulated joiners just to the left of turnout PM2, lower left.
2. Place insulated joiners just to the left of where the track comes 
out of the 'figure eight' in upper left.
3. Place insulated joiners just to the diverting right of turnout PM 4 where
the lead to the 'figure eight' begins.
4. Place insulated joiners somewhere near where the crossing
is in the right end of the 'figure eight'

This will create TWO isolated sections or reverse loops, each requiring a reverse loop
controller which is totally automatic therefore no problem for your
youngin.

5. You must wire the tracks through the double crossover as if
they are parallel. So. The top rail of each will be 'plus' and
the bottom rail of each will be 'negative' (the track is actually
modified AC the polarity terms are used for clarity only) Doing
this permits the trains to change tracks without creating a
short as you have now.


6. I would suggest track drops as follows:

A. Just to the left of the double crossover in both tracks.
B. In the 'figure eight' track half way between the crossing 
and the insulated joiners.
C. Between turnouts PM 2 and PM 4 at the bottom of the layout.
D. Track feed from reverse loop controller X should be
half way into the isolated section on the LEFT side of the
layout. The reverse loop controller INPUT for that would
come from the buss going to ABC above.
E. Track feed from reverse loop controller Y should be half
half way in the isolated section on the RIGHT end of the
'figure eight'. The reverse loop controller INPUT for that
would again come from the buss going to ABC above.

Note: You don't have to be concerned about the polarity
of the connections in D and E above. The controllers
will take care of that.

It is important that you connect the track drops to the buss maintaining
'phasing' (polarity). Thus, if the top rail of both double crossover tracks
is 'plus' you follow that around and you find the bottom rail has become
'plus' on the lower side of the layout. The connection of the B 'figure
eight' track drop would be bottom rail 'plus'.


With those connections you can run any route you or your grandson
want with as many locos as you want without having to worry about
polarity switching. It will all be automatic.

I assume you have already worked out the grade where your tracks
go up and over each other. It does take fairly long track length to
maintain around a 2 % grade. I didn't attempt to work that out.

Let us know how this all turns out for you.

Don


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## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I assume you have already worked out the grade where your tracks
> go up and over each other. It does take fairly long track length to
> maintain around a 2 % grade. I didn't attempt to work that out.
> 
> Let us know how this all turns out for you.
> 
> Don


Thanks for that.

I am attaching the latest photos of my layout. (The top tunnel is not yet enclosed).
Hope you like them. They show the inclines and part of the buildings on the layout and the ones yet to come.

I will study your suggestions and mark them up on a clean copy of the layout later.

Thanks again.


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## DonR

I'm anxious to see more than one train zipping through the many
routes they can take. Very interesting continuous running
layout.

I had to do a double take, tho, when I saw the highway
arrow markings, until i noted that you were in Austraiia.


Don


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## ianb26

DonR:473273 said:


> Ian
> 
> If you have decided to use my suggestion to resolve your
> reverse loop situation this is what you would do:
> 
> 1. Place insulated joiners just to the left of turnout PM2, lower left.
> 2. Place insulated joiners just to the left of where the track comes
> out of the 'figure eight' in upper left.
> 3. Place insulated joiners just to the diverting right of turnout PM 4 where
> the lead to the 'figure eight' begins.
> 4. Place insulated joiners somewhere near where the crossing
> is in the right end of the 'figure eight'
> 
> This will create TWO isolated sections or reverse loops, each requiring a reverse loop
> controller which is totally automatic therefore no problem for your
> youngin.
> 
> 5. You must wire the tracks through the double crossover as if
> they are parallel. So. The top rail of each will be 'plus' and
> the bottom rail of each will be 'negative' (the track is actually
> modified AC the polarity terms are used for clarity only) Doing
> this permits the trains to change tracks without creating a
> short as you have now.
> 
> 
> 6. I would suggest track drops as follows:
> 
> A. Just to the left of the double crossover in both tracks.
> B. In the 'figure eight' track half way between the crossing
> and the insulated joiners.
> C. Between turnouts PM 2 and PM 4 at the bottom of the layout.
> D. Track feed from reverse loop controller X should be
> half way into the isolated section on the LEFT side of the
> layout. The reverse loop controller INPUT for that would
> come from the buss going to ABC above.
> E. Track feed from reverse loop controller Y should be half
> half way in the isolated section on the RIGHT end of the
> 'figure eight'. The reverse loop controller INPUT for that
> would again come from the buss going to ABC above.
> 
> Note: You don't have to be concerned about the polarity
> of the connections in D and E above. The controllers
> will take care of that.
> 
> It is important that you connect the track drops to the buss maintaining
> 'phasing' (polarity). Thus, if the top rail of both double crossover tracks
> is 'plus' you follow that around and you find the bottom rail has become
> 'plus' on the lower side of the layout. The connection of the B 'figure
> eight' track drop would be bottom rail 'plus'.
> 
> 
> With those connections you can run any route you or your grandson
> want with as many locos as you want without having to worry about
> polarity switching. It will all be automatic.
> 
> I assume you have already worked out the grade where your tracks
> go up and over each other. It does take fairly long track length to
> maintain around a 2 % grade. I didn't attempt to work that out.
> 
> Let us know how this all turns out for you.
> 
> Don


Hi Don, 
Thank you for your help so far. I have marked up a diagram with your suggestions for 1-4 above, and am attaching it to this post. If you require to print a copy, I could email it to you if you would like to provide your email in a PM. 

#5. I have marked the tracks as you suggested and followed them around.

Not sure re #6 A-E, and the location & polarity of droppers as I have followed the "+" & "-" around but I seem to get confused when they appear reversed, that is why I am asking if you could complete that section for me. Even though I was a "sparky" for about 40 years, (been retired from the industry for about 23 years), some DC circuits were not my strong point.  I mainly worked on 415/240v AC and also in the vicinity of High Voltage equipment, 22KV - 500KV.

On the attached drawing I have pasted on images of Digitrax AR1. As I said, I'm not sure of the connections for those.

Also your last post.


DonR:472641 said:


> I'm anxious to see more than one train zipping through the many
> routes they can take. Very interesting continuous running
> layout.
> 
> *I had to do a double take, tho, when I saw the highway
> arrow markings, until I noted that you were in Australia.*


I thought that may come to someone's attention!! 

Again, thank you for your help so far.


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## DonR

Ian

You drawing is very clear. Your high voltage experience should do you well
with the layout, it is a modified AC but only around 14 to 16 volts. You
just don't let the Red touch the Black.

You've got it right. As to A: The red/black droppers you show on the
drawing are correct at the double crossover. They are also correct
where you show them at the bottom of the drawing.

E: relates to the Ar1 reverse loop controller connections. Their terminal labeling is odd.
The wiring, tho is very simple. You connect the INPUT to each AR 1 to your
main track buss. They label this as track A and track B for some reason. I
don't see any need for polarity concern since the units will self align the
phasing (polarity) but Digitrax may have a reason, so consider track A to be
your Red buss and track B to be the black. The connections to the isolated track
section actually have no polarity since it is changed by the AR1.

The output of each AR 1 will go to the isolated track it controls.
The unites are usually attached to the underside of
the layout near the section they control. Each drop should be at about
the half way point between insulated joiners of the isolated sections.

Now as to where you have marked the INSULATED JOINERs on the
drawing. My concern is that the isolated sections seem overly
long. Is the track drawing
to scale or is the actual layout much larger than shown? The reason I ask is
that we want each isolated section to be just over the length of your longest
LIGHTED passenger train, but not much longer. You place your insulators
at PM 2 and measure 'away' from the turnout the train length and place a
set of insulated joiners at that point. You place your insulated joiners
where the 'figure 8' leaves PM 4 and measure the train length away from
there and place the other insulated joiners at that point. No insulated joiners
need be at the crossing unless your measurements take you there. Crossings
are wired so that each track is isolated from the other so you don't have
to isolate them.

Now I have used the term 'insulated joiners'. Since you have your track
already laid you may prefer to simply cut the rails with a razor knife
or Dremel cutting wheel instead. The cuts should be at the same place
in both rails, not staggered.

I hope I haven't rattled too long to make the points.

Don


----------



## RT_Coker

DonR said:


> Ian
> ...
> The reason I ask is that we want each isolated section to be just over the length of your longest LIGHTED passenger train, but not much longer.
> ...
> Don


Don,
You may need to discuss the train-cars-with-metal-wheels-on-reverse-loops problem, before the best length for the reverse-loop is decided.
Bob


----------



## DonR

Ian

Bob does bring up another factor in choosing what length each of
your isolated track sections should be. That is metal wheels on
your freight cars or a lighted caboose.

What length trains do you anticipate running? Have you noticed
the type of wheels on your freight cars, metal or plastic?

If all are plastic there is no reason to be concerned. If metal we'll
want to make each isolated section (again) longer than your
longest train.

The reason the metal wheels is a factor is that the loco has caused
the AR 1 to reverse the phase in the isolated section. If a pair of
metal wheels on a car in a long train 
spans the insulated joiner it will make an electrical
connection and cause either a short or another phase reverse.
There are ways to over come this problem, tho. One way is to
place a sliver of plastic that is slightly higher than the rail. This
will prevent a metal wheel from touching both rails at the
same time. Another way is to put a tiny drop of clear finger
nail polish on the end of one rail. 

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> Bob does bring up another factor in choosing what length each of
> your isolated track sections should be. That is metal wheels on
> your freight cars or a lighted caboose.
> 
> What length trains do you anticipate running? Have you noticed
> the type of wheels on your freight cars, metal or plastic?
> 
> If all are plastic there is no reason to be concerned. If metal we'll
> want to make each isolated section (again) longer than your
> longest train.
> 
> The reason the metal wheels is a factor is that the loco has caused
> the AR 1 to reverse the phase in the isolated section. If a pair of
> metal wheels on a car in a long train
> spans the insulated joiner it will make an electrical
> connection and cause either a short or another phase reverse.
> There are ways to over come this problem, tho. One way is to
> place a sliver of plastic that is slightly higher than the rail. This
> will prevent a metal wheel from touching both rails at the
> same time. Another way is to put a tiny drop of clear finger
> nail polish on the end of one rail.
> 
> Don


Hi Don & Bob.

Thanks Don for both of your replies.

To answer the comments in the first post. The layout is 1800mm x 1200mm (6' x 4' approx.). (We are Metric here). With the 60 degree crossing it is situated with its centre approximately halfway on both dimensions, give or take a few mm. As I am more a passenger train person than freight, most of the trains will be passenger consists of loco plus 2 or 3 cars. I am building them from kits. For examples of the real things see the following links.

http://www.pjv101.net/cd/pages/c062m.htm 

http://www.pjv101.net/cd/pages/c328m.htm

Also these links to Guards Vans. I think they are similar to your cabooses. The only example now run on preserved sets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_Z_vans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_Z_vans#/media/File:Victorian_Railways_ZD_van.jpg

If I apply lighting to the coaches, it will probably be the button battery type and not through the rails. I haven't yet made a final decision on that.
I think the insulated sections are OK length wise. I have placed them where I can get at the current joiners with just a few slight problems such as on the flex track.

Also the wheelsets that come with the kits are metal with a brass axle rod, but the wheel centres are insulated from the axle.

The diverging track from right of PM 4 is connected to a Hornby (yes i have a mixture of Hornby & Atlas) R600 and then flex track to the X crossing. And from the left of PM 2 back to the continuation of the same direction from PM 4 (does that make sense?) of the X crossing.

I think I forgot to add connection points to Controllers "X" & "Y" Out to Reversing Sections. For "X" would I add them on the yellow section where the flex joins the 15"/15 degree track, and for the "Y" in the vicinity of where the 18"/30degree Atlas joins the Hornby R600 on the outer track?

I will attach a couple of photos of my main locos. In Pic 069 the main locos are the green/yellow - the national freight carrier, or one of them anyway - at the front, and the second blue one along - a single ended Victorian Railways "S" class.

Well I think I have added what I need to at this stage. Once again thanks for your help.


----------



## RT_Coker

ianb26 said:


> Also the wheelsets that come with the kits are metal with a brass axle rod, but the wheel centres are insulated from the axle.


Ian,
If the part of the wheel that touches the rail is metal (a conductor) then it can cause problems with the DCC-auto-reverser. I found out the hard way when I happen to hear my DCC-auto-reverser chattering itself to death. Even if the gaps are good enough to prevent the metal-wheel-problem now, they have a tendency not to stay that way. 
Bob


----------



## DonR

I was a bit confused by what you were saying about where your
insulated joiners are so let me say where 
the should be considering that your layout is not larger than
6 X 4. (It looks larger than that in the photos).

On the right side, joiners where PM 4 joins the figure 8. The other end
of this isolated section should be somewhere BEFORE it joins the crossing.

On the left side, insulated joiners where PM 2 connects to the track
going to the figure 8. The other end also be BEFORE it joins the
crossing. (you have a pair of insulated joiners showing on your drawing
on the bottom side of the crossing. These should be eliminated.

You would connect the power output from the X & Y AR 1s about midway between
the two points where there are insulated joiners in each of the isolated sections.
The input to these comes from your DCC track buss.

If you have no more than 3 or 4 passenger cars on a train it doesn't appear the metal
wheels will be a concern. If they do cause trouble, we can solve it with
easily, either with clear nail polish or a plastic insert.

Those are interesting Locos. They appear to be similar to the familiar EMD (Gen. Mtrs)
F or E locomotives run on almost all US railroads from the 30s to the 70s
and possibly 80s. Some are still running as tourist train power here.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Those are interesting Locos. They appear to be similar to the familiar EMD (Gen. Mtrs)
> F or E locomotives run on almost all US railroads from the 30s to the 70s
> and possibly 80s. Some are still running as tourist train power here.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

The Blue & Gold one - S315 - was one of a set of single ended types of this class used on - at the time - one of Australia's premier interstate trains that ran from Melbourne to Sydney named the "Spirit of Progress", from 1937 - 1986 in various guises. See the 2 attached links below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Progress

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_S_class_(diesel)

I'll check out the rest of your post later today.


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> On the right side, joiners where PM 4 joins the figure 8. The other end of this isolated section should be somewhere BEFORE it joins the crossing. *DONE*
> 
> On the left side, insulated joiners where PM 2 connects to the track
> going to the figure 8. The other end also be BEFORE it joins the
> crossing. (you have a pair of insulated joiners showing on your drawing
> on the bottom side of the crossing. These should be eliminated. *DONE*
> 
> You would connect the power output from the X & Y AR 1s about midway between
> the two points where there are insulated joiners in each of the isolated sections. *DONE*
> The input to these comes from your DCC track buss.
> 
> Don




Hi Don,

Attached revised dropper & AR1's diagram. I don't need any more droppers???

Hope the links on my previous post were of interest to you (or anyone else that looked at them  )

The locos were built by Clyde Engineering in Sydney, NSW. I assume under licence from GM. I think I am correct in saying that Clyde built a lot of GM designs for the Australian Railways. One thing you may or may not know is that in Victoria the local and Intrastate gauge is 5'3" and NSW is Standard gauge (4'8 1/2"), Queensland, Sth Australia and I think Western Australia are 3'6" A standard gauge now links Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth. Also from Adelaide to Alice Springs & Darwin (Northern Territory). I hope my "geography lesson" was helpful.


----------



## DonR

Ian

I have long been fascinated with your country. I have actually known
only one or two Aussies, but a good friend has his ex wife and sons
living there. It has always seemed to have many similarities to
the U. S lifestyle. Any information on the country would be most
welcome.

It looks like you are ready to run some of those interesting locos.

I don't think you'll need any additional track drops. However, If you notice
your train slowing (on the main sections) at any certain area you
may want to add a drop there.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I have long been fascinated with your country. I have actually known
> only one or two Aussies, but a good friend has his ex wife and sons
> living there. It has always seemed to have many similarities to
> the U. S lifestyle. Any information on the country would be most
> welcome.
> 
> It looks like you are ready to run some of those interesting locos.
> 
> I don't think you'll need any additional track drops. However, If you notice
> your train slowing (on the main sections) at any certain area you
> may want to add a drop there.
> 
> Don


Whew! Finally I can now make some more progress. It maybe a few weeks or even a couple of months before DCC is available, as being on limited, fixed income (Seniors age  ) I have to watch my spending. Ebay is handy for local stuff, but if what I want is only available in USA, postage is usually the killer. One item I looked at recently was about $US25 on one listing, and postage was about $US15. The same item on another was about $US23 but the postages was about $US30. I think some eBay dealers are rip off merchants as far as postage goes on items. No offence to the US dealers in general.

Once everything is OK I will make a video and post it to my web site. I am in the process of adding my hobby (one of them) to it. There I can document the layout from planning to the current progress. It maybe a few more weeks before that happens. 

If you are interested, my layout is based - albeit smaller in length and with the crossover at top - on a layout by a guy in Canada who is fully OK with me using his ideas. Being shorter than his, I couldn't add the turntable which he has. The link is here:
http://tysmodelrailroad.blogspot.com.au/p/about-me.html

Once again, thanks for your help. Much appreciated, and I will keep you up to speed with what is happening.

PS. The background on my layout is a panorama of the view from the front of our house. My son took about 5 shots and made them into a panorama, which I then split back to close to the originals, and printed them on A4 photo paper and glued them to the backboard matching up the joins. I think it looks quite good.  I thought I would try and attach it here along with alternative one. I had to resize them to fit here as both are about 15Mb in their original size.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Those background photos are a work of art. That is magnificient scenery.

I had thought you would be DCC from the Start. I'm afraid those AR 1
reverse loop controllers won't work on DC. If that is what you intend
let me know we'll have to work out a manual switching system to use until
DCC arrives. The AR 1s would have to be disconnected when DC.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> Those background photos are a work of art. That is magnificient scenery.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

That's what we see every day. Very nice, especially in Summer, except when the HOT North wind blows. Not the best at the moment though, we are still in Winter here. Less than 2 weeks and it will be Spring. 



> _ I had thought you would be DCC from the Start. I'm afraid those AR 1
> reverse loop controllers won't work on DC. If that is what you intend
> let me know we'll have to work out a manual switching system to use until
> DCC arrives. The AR 1s would have to be disconnected when DC._


Now that the electrics are sorted out I will be going to DCC soon. I will now proceed to attach all the droppers including those for the AR1's. Also signal droppers. I am going to work out my ceiling fixings so I can get the layout suspended and make it easy to do the wiring and connections (solder or otherwise). Besides I need to get *my* car back in the garage.  As I have to get up in the ceiling, I might just fix a light that is not working, which will make the other half happy and get her off my back. 

Thanks again for your help. Keep looking here for updates - and any other problems I may have.

In between the wiring, I will be making progress on the carriage kits.


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I have long been fascinated with your country. I have actually known
> only one or two Aussies, but a good friend has his ex wife and sons
> living there. It has always seemed to have many similarities to
> the U. S lifestyle. *Any information on the country would be most
> welcome.*
> 
> Don


Hi Don.

I thought you might be interested in the following Youtube video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5eeJiJsB0
It is from one of the big model railway clubs' exhibition. (I don't know why they included a couple of quick UK clips in their intro, when their layout/s are all Australian).
At 5:17 is the streamlined steam version of what was once one of Australia's premier overnight trains from Melbourne to Sydney, "The Spirit of Progress". This was back in the days when that rail link had 2 separate rail gauges. Melbourne to Wodonga/Albury in NSW at 5'3" (Broad gauge) and Albury to Sydney at 4'8 1/2", (Standard guage). Wodonga is in Victoria and Albury is in NSW, however there was a broad gauge link into NSW from Wodonga to Albury (a matter of a few KMs (Miles)). Passengers had to change trains at Albury at about midnight to continue onto Sydney arriving about 8:00 am.
Then at 9:56, 10:51 are a couple of passenger trains with coaches the same as I am building at the moment. At 13:35 is another later set of coaches of the same design with curved roofs, then at 16:28 with the latest type of coaches. At 18:49 is a set called "The Overland". This is an overnight service that used to run 7 nights a week, but is now down to 2 or 3 nights, between Melbourne and Adelaide, in South Australia, on broad gauge tracks between to the 2 capitals. 

South Australia has *3* systems, broad, standard and narrow - (3'6") Ihope this post hasn't been to long, and hope you enjoy the video.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Very interesting video. And what a beautifully done layout.
Fascinating combination of car types from the 4 wheel small
cars I relate to European railroads to the giant freight cars
of today. Some look larger that what runs on US rails.

I notice that the club uses US type Kadee knuckle couplers. What
coupling system does Australian railroads use? A year or so ago, There were
several videos here on the Forum showing restored Aussie trains
but the couplers were never clearly visible.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> Very interesting video. And what a beautifully done layout.
> Fascinating combination of car types from the 4 wheel small
> cars I relate to European railroads to the giant freight cars
> of today. Some look larger that what runs on US rails.
> 
> I notice that the club uses US type Kadee knuckle couplers. What
> coupling system does Australian railroads use? A year or so ago, *There were
> several videos here on the Forum showing restored Aussie trains
> but the couplers were never clearly visible.*
> Don


Hi Don,

Originally here in Victoria the couplings were like the old British ones, that is a hook type with turnbuckle, However that has all changed. See the following 2 links which brings us into line with rest of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_coupling_conversion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_coupling#Scharfenberg_coupler

The second link is what is used on commuter trains. Most long distance and goods (freight) trains use the first type.

Hope this helps you to understand the Aussie systems.


----------



## DonR

Interesting that you are now using the Janney (US type
knuckle coupler upon which the Kadee was based.

I see also that the 'heritage' trains use the older type
coupler. The videos I mentioned were vintage so that's
why I did not recognize the coupler.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi all,

Back again for more advice! 

Layout progressing well. Have started on my control panel. The trouble with doing things "on the run" means things are forgotten and/or not thought out properley.  I'm attaching a photo of my panel. The cutout on the left is where the Digitrax DCS50 sits. I have placed 16 switches for current and future use as controls for my signals, plus 4 master switches (2 more to purchase) for signal, points (turnouts for those in US  ), buildings and street lighting.

On the track diagram section, I have drilled my holes for the point motor switches and holes for LED indication for which track is set. I am going to be using DPDT Mom Centre Off (mom-off-mom). DPDT because I can't get SPDT at my local kit store.  I will be using Bi LEDs - Red/Green. 

A few hours ago I realised that setup won't work for the LEDs as they will only light when the point is switched and not after it! The attached photo shows the location of the DPDT switches circled in *RED*, and the location of the LEDs circled in *BLUE*.

Any suggestions please! I can't afford to spend to much as the panel is costing more than I thought.  and she who knows best says "This is taking a long time". I said "Yes" but she doesn't know what I've outlayed so far. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Magic

There is a very simple solution to this problem but "She who knows best" will not be happy. 
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/751D.HTM

There was a thread posted not long ago about this same problem and the answers were not very satisfactory in my opinion. 
A lot of tricky circuitry involved.

Here is the link to that thread.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=36746

Magic


----------



## DonR

I am with Magic on this one.

If you can do it, use the KStapleton turnout control
switches that he shows a link to. They work with twin coil machines but
also control panel or track side LEDs.

On my layout I am using the circuits described in
his 2nd link to a thread here on the Forum.
It uses a DPDT switch, one side of which controls
the LEDs and the other side determines which
way the points will throw AFTER you push a
momentary button. The circuit is shown in
that thread.

That system works, but awkwardly. You throw
the switch which then sets the Red or Green LED,
but the polnts are not thrown until you push
the button. If you fail to push the button the LED
is giving an incorrect indication of point position
and likely you'll have a derail. Had I known of
the KStapleton unit I would have used it instead.
You need one for each turnout.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

I think I have worked out want I want. I think I will go with the attached diagram - with modifications - from the link that Magic posted. It's not ideal, but budget wise it appears best to suit my needs. I will have to slightly modify my mimic panel. I will use Bi LEDs (Red/Green) for indication. I have a mixture of Hornby & Peco Turnouts - there I said Turnouts instead of Points  , which means I have to be careful of the wiring as the Hornby connections are different from Peco. On Hornby the common is black, whereas on Peco - off the top of my head - I think it is green!


----------



## DonR

The Peco PL 10 twin coil motors actually have only solder tabs.
So you can run whatever color wire you want to
them. Most of us use black for common, red for
divert and green for straight through. But a lovely
powder blue and pink would do just as well, tho maybe
you would get odd looks from your guests.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> The Peco PL 10 twin coil motors actually have only solder tabs.
> So you can run whatever color wire you want to
> them. Most of us use black for common, red for
> divert and green for straight through. But a lovely
> powder blue and pink would do just as well, tho maybe
> you would get odd looks from your guests.
> 
> Don


OOPS 
I should have mentioned that the motors were surface mounted type. This had to be done as I had 40mm x 19mm braces on the board right where I had to put an underboard type! Same with a couple of Hornby ones as well.

I also have this problem with the double crossover going into upper the tunnel as a couple of them would foul any trains going into the lower tunnel. Also the other end of the crossover can't be accessed from underneath so 4 Peco surface mounts are required!

Sorry about that.


----------



## DonR

Haven't used or seen the surface mount Peco motors.

How are they wired? Do they have affixed wires
or terminals? What are the wire colors?

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Haven't used or seen the surface mount Peco motors.
> 
> How are they wired? Do they have affixed wires
> or terminals? What are the wire colors?
> 
> Don


They are PL-11 Side Mounted Turnout Motor. I have attached 3 files showing information & instructions, they include an extract of the wiring diagram.

Also I was pondering the switching of some bipolar LEDs, switched by a DPDT switch. They are the 2 leg type. I think I have wired it correctly. The wiring diagram is also attached. I'm not sure as yet what size resistor to add (R1). Wired from 15vDC.

EDIT
Also attached, pic of PL-11


----------



## ianb26

Hi there,

This may not be in the right forum, so let me know if it isn't. 

I have a full rectifier circuit for 12vAC to 12vDC. Would the same circuit work for 15vAC to 15vDC. If not, does anyone know of a 15vAC to 15vDC circuit?

Thanks.


----------



## DonR

Ian, usually, the voltage limiter will be a capacitor.

Check the voltage rating on the capacitor in the
rectifier. Most likely it will be 25, 35 or 50 volts.
Or there may be no capacitor.
In either case, the 3 volt difference will not matter.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Thanks Don,

It's a 25V 470uF capacitor.

BTW Did the info re Peco side mount motor help?

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

You should have no problem with that unit on a 15 volt source.

Yes, now I know what they are doing with the PL11 wiring.
As you mentioned, the green wire is common. Tho it isn't
clear which is which, Red is likely divert, and Black is
straight through, but those could be reversed. Try hooking
the output of your source to the green, and touch the
other wire to the Red then the black and see which way
it works and do your wiring accordingly.

The way I control my Peco twin coil turnout motors and LED
panel lights is using one side of a DPDT switch to control
the point setting after a push of a normally open push button
that takes the output of the CDU to operate the points.
Connect the power source in series with the push button
to the middle tab, and the red
to one end tab and black to the other end tab.

The other side of the DPDT switch controls the LEDs.
Connect the source power to the middle tab, and the Red
to the divert side tab, and the Green to the straight thru
side tab. I have my voltage limiting resistor before the
buss to all of the DPDTs. You might try a 1k resistor, but
if the LEDs are too dim drop down to a 470.

As I have mentioned, this provides for awkward operating.
You have to throw the switch, then push the button to
move the points. If you don't push the button the LEDs
will have an incorrect indication.

The Kstapleton 751D switch is a better system, tho more
expensive. You need only the switch to send it's own CDU
pulse to the twin coil motors and does control the panel or
track side LEDs.

Don


----------



## ianb26

OK, thanks Don.

I'll work on your suggestions and get back to you. I'll try and draw up a diagram and check with you to see if it's OK.

Ian


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

Attached is my circuit layout. I think I may have made some mistakes on it. Feel free to download it and make any alterations as necessary.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

I have drawn the circuit that I use but am having difficulty 
getting my printer to scan it right. Give me a little time
to figure out why.

What you pictured would not do what you want done.

Don


----------



## DonR

This is twin coil PL11 circuit with control of 3 wire red/green panel or
trackside LEDs. You would install the voltage limiting resistor
in series with the LED source + which then feeds the
LED buss to the DPDT switches. You don't need a separate
resistor for each LED.

Sorry it's turned wrong.

View attachment Turnout panel switch circuit_20151019_0002.pdf


I note your circuit used 2 wire LEDs, I would have to try to figure out
how to integrate them into this circuit.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I note your circuit used 2 wire LEDs, I would have to try to figure out
> how to integrate them into this circuit.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

I'm going to try and get 3 leg bi colour LEDs. The 2 leg ones confuse me. 

I'll keep you informed.

Ian


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I note your circuit used 2 wire LEDs, I would have to try to figure out
> how to integrate them into this circuit.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

Purchased 3 leg Bicolour LEDs today. I have attached a couple of print screens for them. Also some photos of the control panel with DPDT and momentary push buttons, front & rear views. The push buttons are red and black, with the black to have green dots on them. Green will be straight through and Red diverge.

The 4 groups of switches on the right are the switches for the signals. (On left in rear view). With their corresponding colours, GREEN above and RED below the switches. On the rear view you can see that all 16 switches are supplied from a Master switch on the right of the bottom row of the 2 groups of 2 switches. Do I need to place a resistor on each LED to the switches (that would be 32 resistors!) or just one resistor between the master and the first switch?

On the rear view, the Red DPDT switches on the bottom of the panel and the 2 switches top right are the switches for the points/direction LEDs and the black round switches are the push buttons. There are 2 more pushbuttons to add to the bank at the bottom.

Likewise the bicolour LEDs, do they need resistors on the longer leg of each LED or just one master resistor. Have you managed to sort your printer out?
Sorry about the wiring queries, but I've been retired from the industry since 1992 (voluntary redundancy), besides DC circuits were not my strong point as I was more involved with AC, Low voltage, Medium voltage and High Voltage.

I will try and produce a wiring diagram from the control panel to all the signals, points and other accessories.

Ian
*EDIT*
The first LED image has Green as the shorter of the 2 outside legs, the second image has Red as the shorter. Mine are the first image connections.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Some very nice, neat work on that panel.

Yes, the red/green LEDs that I used have
the LONG wire as red, center is common, and
the third wire is green.

I use only one resister for my entire panel. Mine
is in series with the positive feed to my panel LED
buss. 

I am confused at the red and black (with green dot) buttons.
With the circuit in the PDF file the DPDT switch determines
whether the PL11 will throw points straight or divert. A single
button then sends the pulse to actually move the points.

You would use the red and black buttons if you were throwing
them direct without the DPDT switch, but you would not
have the power for the LEDs.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I use only one resister for my entire panel. Mine
> is in series with the positive feed to my panel LED
> buss.
> 
> I am confused at the red and black (with green dot) buttons.
> *With the circuit in the PDF file *the DPDT switch determines
> whether the PL11 will throw points straight or divert. A single
> button then sends the pulse to actually move the points.


Did you actually send a PDF file?

I'll have to make an effort now and get the electrics finished!  I am about to make up my 12vAC to 12vDC rectifier board (and maybe also 15vAC to 15vDC). Along with a couple of passenger cars from kits.

Ian

*EDIT*

Adding 12vAC to 12vDC rectifier circuit


----------



## DonR

Ian

Yes, PDF file showing my DPDT turnout control circuit is in my
post 62 in this thread. It is substantially different from the
circuit you posted.

Don


----------



## ianb26

OK Don,

My PDF reader has been doing weird things. When I originally opened that link, it gave me a page from North Raleigh Model Railroad Club about electronics for accessories powered by 15VAC accessory Bus!!!!!!

I have just reinstalled Adobe Reader and it works fine. I see where I went wrong with my circuit.  I misread your instructions originally! That makes more sense. Looks like I have to plug some holes on control panel.  

I have completed my 12vAC to 12vDC rectifier and it works perfectly. Now to do a 15vAC to 15vDC version. Same circuit different voltage rectifier.

Thanks for your help. 

*EDIT*
Where did/do you put the resistor/s for the LEDs?


----------



## DonR

Ian

I have one voltage limiting resistor in my panel LED circuits.
It is in the positive lead from the power supply. 

No need for a resistor at each individual LED.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I have one voltage limiting resistor in my panel LED circuits.
> It is in the positive lead from the power supply.
> 
> No need for a resistor at each individual LED.
> 
> Don


OK Don,

Can I ask what value resistor/s would be best? I had intended to put resistors in ALL 16 signal circuits (1 resistor per red and 1 per green), but reading your advice, I'm thinking that is now not necessary. 

Over the weekend I'm going to attempt to draw up the signal circuit diagram. Hoping it won't take to long!! So I will keep you posted.

Ian


----------



## DonR

There is a formula to determine the resistor value based on
supply voltage, LED voltage and amperage draw. But since
you'll have many LEDs running on it, I would get a few
resistors, 470 up to 1,000 ohms and do a trial and error.
Have them lighted as they would be in operation so you'll
get it right. Start with the 1,000 and work your way
down. Use the one that gives you the brightness you
like.

Use a 1 watt size since it'll have all of the LEDs on it.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hello all,

Seems I've been silent for about a week, so here is an update.
The 2 Digitrax AR1's I ordered arrived yesterday. YAY!!!! I will get them hooked up in the next few days or so. Also need to install insulated rail joiners. Just starting to install some signals. Had the posts made up using drinking straws, but when I installed them they moved all over the place, so going to replace the straws with 6mm (1/4") aluminium tubing. Should have done that in the first place. Will post photos of them at a later date.

I have run some 4 core telephone cables to the signal positions from the control panel. Below are some photos taken under the layout as well as the inside of the control panel.
Photo 0107: Ar1's (!!YAY!!)
0099:Underboard power
0100:Underboard wiring
0101:Resistor PCB for the panel and signal lights. Also cables for signals.
0102 & 0103:More underboard wiring
0104:AC to DC inverter PCB - 12vAC & 15vAC to 12v DC & 15vDC, with CDU for my points -oopps turnout for USA  - just visible in background.
0105:Back of control panel
0106:Front of control panel.

I have to now decide which loco is going to be the first to have decoder installed. Any ideas which Digitrax decoder to use, that is reasonably priced? Not to expensive, then again not to cheap! 

Well I think that is all for now.


----------



## DavefromMD

This will tell you the recommended decoder for a locomotive.
http://www.digitrax.com/products/engine-matrix/decoder/


----------



## Cycleops

You can use a Digitrax decoder by all means but fwiw the Lenz ones are far superior and not much more money.


----------



## DonR

Since the motors of some older locomotives draw more
current than the newer ones, I would suggest that your
first decoder installations be your favorites of the newest
group.

The Digitrax decoder chart to match specific locos may help. Many
locos are not listed though.

Most any Digitrax decoder of 1 amp rating would be suitable.
However, note that some come with color coded wires only,
and some come with plugs.

If any of your locos are DCC READY they will have a jack
that a decoder can plug into. Check to see the number of
prongs it takes, some have a different count. Order a
decoder with a plug that matches.

If your locos are not DCC READY then order the decoder
that has the color coded wires only, no plug.

Another consideration may be size of the decoder. If there
is little space in the shell of a loco you may have to use
one designed for N or even Z scale as I had to do on one
of mine. Those are about the size of a narrow postage stamp.
Just make certain it can handle 1 amp or better. The
typical normal decoder will be about 1 inch long, maybe
a half inch wide and maybe an 1/8th inch thick.

Before installing a decoder in any older locos it is best to
do a stall test. You'll need a DC track and a multimeter
set to AMPS. (on some meters you must move the
prong plugs) Put the meter in series with one lead from power
pack to track. Put loco on the track, turn up the speed
control to about 75% as you hold the loco from moving.
Slowly press down on the loco until the wheels stall. Note
the amperage reading. If it is anywhere near 1 amp you
may need a heavier duty decoder. Sometimes you may
have to replace the motor of the older locos.

It is important that the motor is insulated from the frame. A piece
of tape usually is sufficient. Also
carefully note the motor wire that connects to the right side track
pickup (looking down from the top). Your decoder instructions
will tell you which color coded wire to connect to that. This is
to ensure the loco goes forward when told to do so by the
controller.

Note also, for your loco lights, the blue decoder wire is
'common' but it is also POSITIVE DC for use by LEDs or
incandescent. If there are diodes in the original board
controlling the lights they may need a bypass. The decoder
instructions will cover that.

You'll find the decoder instructions clear and easy to follow.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DavefromMD said:


> This will tell you the recommended decoder for a locomotive.
> http://www.digitrax.com/products/engine-matrix/decoder/


The problem with that link is that it doesn't include Australian manufactured models, which is the first one I want to do. I also have a couple of Hornby/Triang models as well.



DonR said:


> Before installing a decoder in any older locos it is best to
> do a stall test. You'll need a DC track and a multimeter
> set to AMPS.


Don, If I remember rightly, I sent a report on that a few weeks back.

Thanks again.


----------



## DonR

Ian

I looked back. As far as I can tell, you sent several pics of your locos. We discussed
how closely the resemble the EMD F and E units universal on US
railroads. We didn't discuss their electrical factors.

If those locos are of recent manufacture, say in the last 10
years they most likely will have efficient motors easily
updated with a decoder. If DCC 'ready' there should be
markings to that effect on the bottom.

Any much older should have a stall test to make sure they
won't blow a Decoder. 

The shell of those locos appear in the pics to have plenty of room
for a decoder unless unseen interior weights take up
most of the space.

I don't recall if we mentioned it before, but a DC loco should
not be left idle on a live DCC track. The modified AC of the
track will quickly burn out a DC motor. Most DCC controllers
claim to be able to run a DC loco but you would have to
be very careful to not let them stand still. 

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I looked back. As far as I can tell, you sent several pics of your locos. We discussed
> how closely the resemble the EMD F and E units universal on US
> railroads. We didn't discuss their electrical factors.
> 
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

It was a post/s in this forum: - http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=45706&page=2 - posts 14 &15.

I want to do my green and yellow loco first. I emailed the manufacturer asking what decoder is best for that particular model - Australian Made - and they suggested NCE D13SRJ. Would that be compatible with Digitrax DCS50?

Thanks,

Ian


----------



## DonR

Oh yes. That decoder would be fine.
You can use Digitrax and NCE decoders interchangeably
under NMRA standards. 

I had overlooked those posts. They reminded me.
But the loco mfgr. recommended the decoder and
you can't do better than that.

I'm like an old computer hard drive, My memory
is mostly used up.

Don


----------



## Cycleops

If the manufacturer of your loco is recommending a D13SRJ it needs to be hard wired. Should be fairly straightforward. Have a look on youtube for some vids on how its done. You might find some on the Digitrax site too.


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I'm like an old computer hard drive, My memory
> is mostly used up.
> 
> Don


How true, how true. Know how you feel!!! :laugh:

Ian


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> There is a formula to determine the resistor value based on
> supply voltage, LED voltage and amperage draw. But since
> you'll have many LEDs running on it, I would get a few
> resistors, 470 up to 1,000 ohms and do a trial and error.
> Have them lighted as they would be in operation so you'll
> get it right. Start with the 1,000 and work your way
> down. Use the one that gives you the brightness you
> like.
> 
> Use a 1 watt size since it'll have all of the LEDs on it.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

I have completed - I hope - my schematic for the signal LEDs, total number of LEDs is 68! This includes the number on the control panel - 16 switches with Red & Green LEDs as well as the 16 signals x 2 - and 4 more for indication that the master switches are on. As far as I can work out they are all in parallel.

I tried 3 different online calculators, but 2 would only go to a maximum of 32 LEDs, but the 3rd one was the one I actually needed as it had unlimited numbers. The result I got is as follows:
V in: *12V*, Voltdrop across LED: *2.3V*, LED current *20mA*, number in parallel: *68,* Limiting resistor: *7.1324Ohms*, Calculated resistor wattage *13.192 Watts*. 

So I have a choice of 4 resistors - all 10 watt wirewound - 5.6Ohms, 6.8, 8.2, and 10.
I am attaching a jpg of the schematic for you to look at. Also a couple of photos of my signal gantry, but minus the signals as I am waiting on some rolls of wire from China. Should have arrived yesterday!

The last photo of the gantry is NOT at an angle, it was taken while the layout was in the air and I was on a ladder leaning slightly to the left! 

Thanks,

Ian

PS: How do I attach photos one at a time with captions? On another post in one of the other forums, Gunrunner John converted 5 attachments to show the photo in the actual post.


----------



## Cycleops

ianb26 said:


> So I have a choice of 4 resistors - all 10 watt wirewound - 5.6Ohms, 6.8, 8.2, and 10.
> I am attaching a jpg of the schematic for you to look at. Also a couple of photos of my signal gantry, but minus the signals as I am waiting on some rolls of wire from China. Should have arrived yesterday!.


I hope you haven't given your credit card details to a Chinese supplier. That will never end in a good way!


----------



## DonR

Ian

Maybe an easier way of providing power for the panel 68 LEDs and
their needed voltage limiting resistor would be to break up the
Positive buss so that it feeds several 'blocks' of 'say 6 or 7 LEDs each, 
with a resistor for that group only. That way you would be able to get a 
better calculation
of resistor and also lower it's wattage to approximately 1/4 or 1/2
watt. Keep in mind, tho, that one one of the two colors will
be lighted on each LED, so you don't want to count it twice.
If you have 34 turnouts, you would calculate for 34 LEDs,
or however many you put into each group.
68 Would be a heavy load on one resistor.

The easy way to post a group of pics with captions is to first
post the pics using the Paper clip in the upper header. Then
select your pics as usual with the Browzers in the new screen. When you have
uploaded all of them, you again go to the paper clip and click
on the line across the bottom of the new screen. It will place
and display your pics. You then use your mouse to scroll between
them and type your captions. The first pic will go where you last
had your cursor and the rest will fall in place after. You are free
to move among them to add text.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Cycleops said:


> I hope you haven't given your credit card details to a Chinese supplier. That will never end in a good way!


I have dealt with this supplier before. It's all done through eBay and PayPal.


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> Keep in mind, tho, that one one of the two colors will
> be lighted on each LED, so you don't want to count it twice.
> If you have 34 turnouts, you would calculate for 34 LEDs,
> or however many you put into each group.
> 68 Would be a heavy load on one resistor.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

The only dual colour LEDs are on my points - oopps turnouts - all the others are single colours. I'm going to calculate the resistor size for the signals as I go along, for testing purposes. 32 indicators plus the group of 6 signal heads I have at the moment. If that fails I may try and split them up to 4 groups of 4 as shown on the schematic diagram.

What is the best line to put the resistor in? Most diagrams I have seen have the resistor in the "*+*" lead, whereas I have mine in the "*-*" lead.

I'll try some resistor values, hopefully, today with my current setup.

Thanks again,

Ian


----------



## DonR

I have my resistors in the positive side of the LED circuits but I've seen
other circuits with it in the negative. The positive side seems more
apt to me.

Hey, Points is good. We use the term 'turnout' simply to distinguish the
track diverting device from
any kind of electrical switch. In North America they are switches
controlled by switchmen but you often see and hear a reference to
points.

Don


----------



## Lemonhawk

Since the resistor is used for current limiting it makes no difference whether its connected to the + or - terminal of the LED. It just has to be in the serial loop.


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I have my resistors in the positive side of the LED circuits but I've seen other circuits with it in the negative. The positive side seems more apt to me.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

I've redesigned my circuitry on the control panel. I now have a 470Ohm resistor in EVERY LED, including the ones in the signal heads. I have taken a couple of photos of them alight. The RED ones have an over bright one in the lower right corner. I googled for a fix and it looks like I can use a 100K trimpot to fix the problem. 

I have attached the photos normally as I couldn't use your suggestion, as I couldn't see a paper clip anywhere.


----------



## DonR

I see what you mean about that one overbright LED. It may possibly burn out
from overvoltage. Recheck the resistor for it. It may have been
mis marked or shorted thus sending full voltage to
the LED. That LED should be the same brightness as the others if
you use the same resistance in it's circuit. You shouldn't need a
variable control for it. I'd just pull the existing resistor and replace
it with one identical to that used on the other LEDs.

Panel looks good.

the paper clip is right next to the white 'smiley face' in the header above
the text field. After uploading your pics, you click on it and you'll see
a small screen. Click the bottom line and it will place the pic files in
the text and when you click submit reply after completing your post,
the pictures will automatically display. You can use your cursor to move
about among the pics to place captions or other data.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I see what you mean about that one overbright LED.
> 
> The paper clip is right next to the white 'smiley face' in the header above
> the text field. After uploading your pics, you click on it and you'll see
> a small screen. Click the bottom line and it will place the pic files in
> the text and when you click submit reply after completing your post,
> the pictures will automatically display. You can use your cursor to move
> about among the pics to place captions or other data.
> 
> Don


My reply screen must be different as I can't see a white smiley face.  Attached is what I get when replying.

Re the bright LED, it may be a faulty LED, as I have a larger resistor in it and it is still bright. I have to get some more red LEDs so I'll get some extras. The original red ones came with the signal heads, from China, so what I can get at the electronic store may not be the same specs.
Ian


----------



## DonR

There are two screens you can use to
reply. The best one, that does include
the white smiley face and the paper clip
is immediately to the left. It is a BLUE
'button' with the words POST REPLY.

There is below that a second reply capability
labelled Quick Reply. It's text
screen does not have the white smiley
or the paper clip.

I'm concerned about that super bright LED.
Use your multimeter on DC and check the
voltage AT THE NORMAL LEDs after their resistor, and 
note the voltage. Then do the same with the
brighter one. I suspect you'll find higher voltage
for some reason. A shorted resister would likely
pass full voltage. You should be able to tame
that LED by using a resistor of higher ohms, might
have to expriement, going higher.

There are 'super bright' LEDs. Each is usually
shown with an amp rating. If different from
the other normally bright LEDs you would likely
need a higher ohm resistor. 

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> xxxlklash shtrfojd


Uhhhhh ?????????

Ian


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

That screen shot I sent is the "Post Reply" screen. Could there be a setting in my profile that is not turned on?

I just noticed something!  Well 2 "somethings" actually. I see there is white smiley face when I edit a post, and also in quick reply screen! But no paper clip.

Ian


----------



## DonR

ianb26 said:


> Uhhhhh ?????????
> 
> Ian


I'm not sure that post should be on a family forum. Actually
I'm referring to MY TYPOS exposed by Ian.

Truthfully, I don't know when or where it happened,
but then, when it comes to my typing, KLUTZ is the
word.

I notice that GunrunnerJohn has mentioned that the
Forum has in the past not delivered the Icons as we 
have been discussing due to some malfunction of
a member's browser settings. I'm experiencing a
similar problem where some Youtube videos linked
here on the Forum FREEZE my screen and I must log
off to recover.

Don


----------



## ianb26

It appears to be an IE problem, as Google Chrome is OK. Anyone know how to fix it?

Ian.


----------



## CTValleyRR

ianb26 said:


> It appears to be an IE problem, as Google Chrome is OK. Anyone know how to fix it?
> 
> Ian.


Piece of cake: don't use IE!


----------



## Cycleops

I've got Edge, its replacement on my phone and its even worse!


----------



## ianb26

H there,

I think my last post may have "gone off the rails" with my query about posting photos. 

Now to get back "on track". I ordered 4 Peco PL-11 about a week ago and received them on Saturday. I am now having problems setting them up, either the throwbar is too high or too low or the units are not quite parallel with the tracks.  

Hopefully I will get it sorted. The reason for this post is the instructions that come with them say 16vAC, and I am using 15vDC which will eventually be through a CDU. Using 15vDC - in my opinion anyway - instead of 16vAC shouldn't really affect the operation of these units. Am I correct?

Thanks.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Glad to see you back. Missed you.

In the past I faced that alignment problem
of motor to turnout. That's why I went to
the PL10 mounted to the Peco turnouts.

I use about 18v DC to drive my CDU that
powers my turnouts. They are solenoids 
and get only a short burst of power so
either AC or DC will suffice.

Are you not using those Stapleton 751D turnout
control switches? Each of those has it's own
CDU and you would power them per their manual.
What does it call for? AC or DC?

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> Are you not using those Stapleton 751D turnout
> control switches? Each of those has it's own
> CDU and you would power them per their manual.
> What does it call for? AC or DC?
> 
> Don


I looked at those initially, but at the time finances were tight so I put it on the back burner. Besides my control panel has already been altered once insitu and I don't want to alter it again as there is too much on it. The only way around that problem is to incorporate any alterations into a secondary panel I am creating that will have switches for scenery layout. (Lights in buildings etc.) In the meantime I will hook up to the CDU and see what happens running at 15vDC.


----------



## martink

A typical CDU doesn't care whether you feed it AC or DC - it will store the power and send it to your points in either case.

However.... how much oomph it will deliver, and whether that is enough to correctly throw the points, is another question entirely. The problem is that there are two basic types of DC, and you usually have to infer which one applies. The irritating thing is that manufacturers very rarely specify what sort of DC they produce or want. Sometimes it simply doesn't matter, but for the rest it is simply assumed that you already know or can figure it out for yourself.

An AC voltage is a series of pulses. The 16V figure always refers to the average voltage, with the actual peaks being about 40% higher, around 22V. The CDU stores these peaks (minus a couple of volts for internal losses) and so pumps 20V out to your point motors giving them a good, solid, hefty thump. And yes, that is perfectly safe for the motors.

One type of DC is known as full-wave DC. This is derived directly from the AC and retains the same pulses and peaks and so will have the same effect on your point motors. This is the sort of DC you get from putting a rectifier on an AC supply, or what you get from a typical model railway controller's DC accessory output.

The other type of DC is known variously as regulated, pure, smooth, filtered, etc. (slight differences, but not relevant here). This is a steady voltage, so that 15V is exactly what it sounds like, and is primarily used for powering delicate electronic equipment. This is what you get from a computer power supply or typical DC wall-wart. The problem is that the CDU doesn't get the pulses with those nice high peaks, so can only store and deliver about 13V to the point motors, which may or may mot be enough to throw your points reliably.

Anyway, the net result is that using your 15V DC supply is harmless, but depending on its type may or may not do the job. If it doesn't, then get hold of a 15 or 16V AC supply with at least a 1A rating.


----------



## ianb26

martink said:


> The other type of DC is known variously as regulated, pure, smooth, filtered, etc. (slight differences, but not relevant here). This is a steady voltage, so that 15V is exactly what it sounds like, and is primarily used for powering delicate electronic equipment. This is what you get from a computer power supply or typical DC wall-wart. The problem is that the CDU doesn't get the pulses with those nice high peaks, so can only store and deliver about 13V to the point motors, which may or may mot be enough to throw your points reliably.
> 
> Anyway, the net result is that using your 15V DC supply is harmless, but depending on its type may or may not do the job. If it doesn't, then get hold of a 15 or 16V AC supply with at least a 1A rating.


That's what I noticed. I measured the input to the CDU which was about 15vDC, but the output was only about 12.4vDC.

I'm now putting 15vAC into the CDU which helped a lot. 

Thanks for your reply.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Since you are not using the 751s, are you then using a DPDT switch
and a push button to operate your turnout points and also provide
LED panel and track side point indication?

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> Since you are not using the 751s, are you then using a DPDT switch
> and a push button to operate your turnout points and also provide
> LED panel and track side point indication?
> 
> Don


Sure will be.  Panel is laid out to do that. At the moment, while I am installing the side mounted motors, I am using a momentary switch to test everything. I need to get this done ASAP as I want to enclose the tunnels - I have 2 sets of points just inside the upper tunnel. I realise some people get picky about points in tunnels. I can't see the problem. What about all the underground rail systems in the world? (That was probably a bit off topic.  )

I will keep you posted on the progress.


----------



## Cycleops

ianb26 said:


> I have 2 sets of points just inside the upper tunnel. I realise some people get picky about points in tunnels. I can't see the problem. What about all the underground rail systems in the world? (That was probably a bit off topic.  )
> .


Not at all! 1:1 people are rather better at getting into 1:1 tunnels than model train ones!&#55357;&#56842;


----------



## DonR

Ian

Likely the aversion to use of turnouts in tunnels is that
there are guys, like me, who manage to fail in
positive turnout operating. A turnout set wrong, is a train
off the track...and in a tunnel you pretty much have to
pull it out into open air to right it unless you have a totally open
side.

Sounds like you are getting closer and closer to the time
we will see those interesting locos plying that layout.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> ...and in a tunnel you pretty much have to
> pull it out into open air to right it unless you have a totally open
> side.
> 
> Sounds like you are getting closer and closer to the time
> we will see those interesting locos plying that layout.
> 
> Don


I will have access to the tunnels via a door on the back of the layout.

Hopefully it won't be to long before there is action. I took 2 locos in to have decoders added on Wednesday. The AR1's have been installed, and I have now to put the insulated rail joiners in place. Programming track is made, now have to make the leads to it. The anticipated "launch" date was before Christmas, but I don't think it will happen, but you never know. 

Also have to replace one of the turnouts in the tunnel with a new one. The original was one I got off eBay and it had a broken post on the throw bar. I thought I could get around it by placing the motor on the curved side of the track but it didn't work, so had to buy a new one. 
I have just designed a secondary switch panel for control of street, station & building lights. I was going to put in traffic lights, but that is a long way off - if ever. Once the turnouts in the tunnel are working to my satisfaction, I can start to enclose the tunnels.  Also start on scenery.

That's all on this "long-winded" post for now

Ian


----------



## ianb26

Well I'm back again. just when I thought I had most problems sorted out, I find that I am having trouble with the 4 turnouts leading into the upper tunnel. I am using 4 Peco turnouts on each end of the double crossover. Due to position of the turnouts, I *HAVE* to use Peco PL11 surface mounted motors. Out of the 4 motors, only one is working as it should. The other three throw one way but can't/won't go the other. They "push" the throwbar but can't/won't "pull" it. I have tried increasing/decreasing the height of the motors to the track sleepers, but to no avail. 

Anyone have any suggestions. I have read that removing the spring can help, but is this wise?

I am attaching photos of the position of the motors. I hope they are clear enough. The one with the blue tape on it is the one that works OK.

Photos 0117 & 0118 are the same motors from different positions, as are the others at the other end of the double crossover.


----------



## JerryH

It looks like "vertical binding" may be the culprit. If the turnout is not lying flat or bent vertically, the movement of the points will take more force to operate.


----------



## DonR

As Jerry says it sounds like binding, Ian. Alignment can
be frustrating. Did you test the motors
before installation to make certain they are working as they should?
Do you hear the coil buzz as it tries to throw?

Pecos are designed to 'snap' and lock the points. Without the spring
the points could 'wander' and cause derail but it would be worth a
try if all else fails. Some dry lube such as graphite may help also.

I think I recall that you said you are powering them with a CDU
at 15 volts DC. That should be adequate.

Don


----------



## Cycleops

JerryH said:


> It looks like "vertical binding" may be the culprit. If the turnout is not lying flat or bent vertically, the movement of the points will take more force to operate.


Don't you mean horizontal?


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Did you test the motors
> before installation to make certain they are working as they should?
> Do you hear the coil buzz as it tries to throw?
> 
> Don


Yes, motors work OK on test. Coil buzzes.



DonR said:


> I think I recall that you said you are powering them with a CDU
> at 15 volts DC. That should be adequate.


I have one concern with my CDU. It is a kit that I built and had tested by the person I bought it from as it was not working properly. (Dry joint on one of the components.  ) It has a green LED built into the circuit, but I'm not sure what the LED does.  Whether it should be on all the time or only when it operates the motor. I will have to email him and check that out.

I better go as I have things to do.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. FWIW I don't believe in Political Correctness. 

Ian


----------



## DonR

My guess is that the LED would light when you press a panel button
but, of course, it could merely be an indication the unit is on.

Set your meter to DC volts and check the output voltage of the CDU.
It should be a short burst at least 12 volts but anything more would be better.
Peco suggests running their turnouts on AC, I found mine were
far more dependable on DC thru the CDU. I am using an 18 v home door
bell transformer as source for my CDU. I need the extra ooomph because my diode matrix
yard system throw 3 or 4 turnouts at the same time.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi there,

Thought I would share what Santa left me!  (#2 Son to be precise.) It is a Limited Edition. Under the Athearn brand.

Travelled behind this in August 2014.

Have a Happy New Year

Regards,
Ian


----------



## DonR

Very nice...

But what will the neighbors think?...that US power lurking
among all that genuine Australian locomotive fleet.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> But what will the neighbors think?...that US power lurking
> among all that genuine Australian locomotive fleet.


No problem.   :laugh:

I'll have to check and see if the hobby shop has completed the conversion of the other 2 locos. Then get the chip for Rocky Mountaineer. (It's DCC Ready) Then get the circuitry checked out on the layout. (Still have to install the insulated joiners.)

Ian


----------



## ianb26

Hi there all.

Don, I might modify the diagram you sent me for the route indicators when switching turnouts. I had a reply to a query I posted on Model Railway Forum UK (I think it is the European arm of this forum). The reply is as follows:

_"Use cheap lever style micro switches positioned on the opposite side of the point to the motor and the micro switches lever is worked by the points moving stretcher (Tie) bar. These are fairly cheap at £0.40p each 5 for £1.99... ebay micro switches I would use the 13mm lever type. Then via the contacts on the micro switch feed the LED indications."_

I thought I might do this instead of the DPDT switches. Your thoughts please. The reply comes from a query I had re problems with Peco PL11 surface mounted point motors. I was having trouble with the motors only going one way, and not working at all when trying to use 2 motors at the same time. It turned out it was voltage drop even though I was using a CDU. The wiring I was using was to small - 7/0.012 or thereabouts - so I installed 24/0.2 wiring and they now work perfectly. I am going to run a single black under the layout for the return and red & green to each motor. I have to check if these switches will fit in the space that they would be used in. They are - in metric measurement - 20mm x 6mm x10mm, The link is here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-Ultra...hash=item3cf26db0cc:m:mkwvCbMZKmVI9ToKQG7WT_w

I await your thoughts.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

I remember we discussed using the Stapleton 751D panel switch
that has a built in CDU that throws the points and connections
for panel/track side LEDs. Did you dismiss that idea?

I agree, since I use the DPDT + momentary button on my panels,
that it is an awkward way to do the job. In the hustle of
running a couple trains at the same time it's easy to forget
to push the button and a derail rusults. Had I known of the
Stapleton switch when I built my panels I would have used them.

The SPDT microswitches would work, but won't they be
visible with your PL11 turnout motors. Alignment of them
could be fussy. And you would have to run 2 more wires back
to your panel from each turnout.

The total cost of all would seem to be as much as the
cost of the Stapleton device.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> 
> The SPDT microswitches would work, but won't they be
> visible with your PL11 turnout motors. Alignment of them
> could be fussy. And you would have to run 2 more wires back
> to your panel from each turnout.
> 
> The total cost of all would seem to be as much as the
> cost of the Stapleton device.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

I will look into the Stapleton device again, but I think, considering the size of my layout, that doesn't bother me. I've ordered 5 of the micro switches - 5 for $AUD1.96 - from China (again), so until they arrive I can't do much more. I'm going to put the insulated rail joiners in this week, so in the meantime I will concentrate on that. I will keep you posted.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Sure sounds like a very good price.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi all,

Just completed the wiring to all my point (turnout) motors. Photos attached. Also there are a couple of photos of the Digitrax AR1 auto reversers. Now I have to wire the point motors into the control panel. Photo/s to follow later for that part. I am going to hook up the outgoing connections from the terminal block. 

Then comes the big test. This will be done with my "specially built" momentary on switch. If everything is ok then they will be wired into the control panel permanently along with the micro switches mentioned in my last post, that are due at the end of the month. Roll on end of January, early February.

That's all for now. Report on the outcome of the testing in another post.

Ian


----------



## DonR

You do a good job Ian. That is a very neat wiring system.
I would be embarrassed to show mine the way it is now.
It started neat and organized but as this or that new
wire went it the rats had a new nest.

Looking forward to the big test.
'
Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> You do a good job Ian. That is a very neat wiring system.
> I would be embarrassed to show mine the way it is now.
> It started neat and organized but as this or that new
> wire went it the rats had a new nest.
> 
> Looking forward to the big test.
> '
> Don


Hi Don,

The neatness stems from my days as a sparkie. Especially wiring behind switchboards.

Ian


----------



## DonR

ianb26 said:


> Hi Don,
> 
> The neatness stems from my days as a sparkie. Especially wiring behind switchboards.
> 
> Ian


Would a sparkie be an electrician? The Switchboard...High voltage or
Telephone?

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Would a sparkie be an electrician? The Switchboard...High voltage or
> Telephone?
> 
> Don


Hi Don,

Yes a sparkie is an electrician. Switchboard wiring was, in my field, - in Australian terms - 415volt/240 volt.

415 volt is 3 phase industrial & commercial and 240 volt is domestic and small commercial single phase. I don't know what the North American equivalent of 415 volt is, but our 240 volt is equivalent to your 110 volt.

Hope that explains it for you.

Ian

EDIT. Also our frequency is 50 Hertz compared to your 60 Hertz.


----------



## DonR

Most US homes have a 3 wire 240/120 volt 200 amp service. The 240 is used
for a/c, water heating, clothes dryer and electric ranges. The 120 is the US standard
voltage for ceiling fixtures and wall outlets for lamps, TVs and other small accessories.
Our wall outlets take 2 flat parallel prongs for the 120 v current with a 3rd round prong
as Ground. I see that your's have angled current prongs, possibly to prevent
an erroneous 120 V plug from being inserted.

I don't know the high current user voltages. The larger businesses
take the street lines which I think may be 2,400 volts to an in house
step down transformer.

I've often wondered why most of the world seems to be using the 240 volt
standard, while it seems that most of the Americas use the 120 volt.

Don


----------



## redman88

Lower amperage needed with 240. So they can get away with thinner wire most of time.


----------



## Lemonhawk

Less copper means a the wire is a lot cheaper, and based on my summer job back in the 60's a smaller gauge wire is a lot easier to work with. Is there a safety concern with 120 vs 240. I've taken lots of hits from 120, never any from 240.


----------



## ianb26

Lemonhawk said:


> Less copper means a the wire is a lot cheaper, and based on my summer job back in the 60's a smaller gauge wire is a lot easier to work with. Is there a safety concern with 120 vs 240. I've taken lots of hits from 120, never any from 240.


Lemonhawk to answer your question. In 32 years working with the one employer - they were the state owned electricity producer and distributor until they were privatised (the state needed the money!) - I only had about 4 or 5 "tickles" from 240 volt, but did manage to "short out" 415v phase to phase a couple of times.  Also had shorts on *240Volt DC*!!

Ian


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Most US homes have a 3 wire 240/120 volt 200 amp service. The 240 is used
> for a/c, water heating, clothes dryer and electric ranges. The 120 is the US standard
> voltage for ceiling fixtures and wall outlets for lamps, TVs and other small accessories.
> Our wall outlets take 2 flat parallel prongs for the 120 v current with a 3rd round prong
> as Ground. I see that your's have angled current prongs, possibly to prevent
> an erroneous 120 V plug from being inserted.
> 
> I don't know the high current user voltages. The larger businesses
> take the street lines which I think may be 2,400 volts to an in house
> step down transformer.
> 
> I've often wondered why most of the world seems to be using the 240 volt
> standard, while it seems that most of the Americas use the 120 volt.
> 
> Don


Hi Don,
The employer I worked with (see my reply to Lemonhawk) generated the power as well as distributing it. I worked around up to 500,000 volts, but mainly in terminal stations where the highest most of the time was either 330,000 or 220,000 volts. From there it was sent at 66,000 or 22,000 volts to substations where it was then distributed at 11,000 to pole transformers to then be distributed to domestic at 240 volts at anything from 80 to 100amps. Anything over that to homes was usually a 2 phase 415volts supply (2 phases & neutral). All premises had an earthing (grounding in your part of the world) system.

Now that we appear to be off topic , I'll get back on track.

Well, setup 2 of my locos today - the Rocky Mountaineer loco and the EMD - F7 I think - Australian "S" class single ended loco. It doesn't run properly yet, I think I'll have to clean the wheels, but Rocky Mountaineer runs like a dream!!  I have to tweak part of the layout as it is keeps hitting things, as the layout was built using the other locos, and RM is ever so slightly wider than my other locos, so have to adjust clearances.

I also appear to have a few dead spots on the track so I have added extra droppers. Also I have not adjusted the "AR 1's" yet. I am attaching the latest track layout with the insulated rail joiners marked. They are near enough to the positions you suggested. Also if you can print the attachment and mark where the leads to and from both AR1's go it would be most appreciated. I have a DCC bus under the layout. I have wired them in but not sure if they are right, as when I set PM5 & PM6 to crossover , the Digitrax was showing a short. As I said, I have not adjusted them yet, so that could be the problem.

Let me know if you have trouble marking up the attachment, and I could probably send it to you by email or Private Message.

Thanks again for your ongoing help,

Ian

PS, FWIW - or you may already know - terminals 1 & 2 are the reversing terminals, & 4 & 5 are the DCC bus terminals.


----------



## DonR

Ian

I suppose I have a program on my Windows 7 that would enable
me to mark your drawing but I'm not with it.

However, I can easily tell you what to do.

1. Where you show the green insulated joiners is correct.

2. The input to the AR 1s connected to your DCC under table Buss.

3. The output of AR 1 connects to the track on the extreme left midway
between the insulated joints. There
need be no concern with polarity. The output of the 2nd AR1 would
Connect to the Inner loop that connect to PM1 midway between
the insulated joints. It's input to the under
table DCC buss.

4. I see the reason you are shorting on your double crossover. You must
Connect track drop wire Red to the top rail of both paralell tracks, wire Black to the
bottom rail of both tracks. No drop needed
to the crossover itself. You also would connect your track drops at
other points in the layout (except isolated sections) the same way. 
In otherwords, you would flip the red and black track drops on the
inner oval and crossing,

Let me know if I explained it right, I could draw your layout in color and
scan it to send back to you if not.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

Thanks for that. Points 1 & 2 - no problems.

Point 3, First part ok (AR1 "X") second part (AR1 "Y") shouldn't the reference to PM1 be to PM4?

Point 4, I have numbered all the droppers on attached jpeg, 1 - 10. Numbers 1 - 4 are the original droppers, which appear as though I have to alter on the inner tracks. 5 - 10 are additional droppers due to inconsistent voltages on those section of tracks. This is caused by using short sections of flex track that are not making proper contact with the rail joiners due to my cutting of those sections with a Dremel. I have since worked out how to get proper cuts by using the flexible attachment on the Dremel. There are too many joiners to solder, so I thought I would add extra droppers.

I think you have explained it right to me.  

I will add some photos of the short sections of flex track. IMG1611b & IMG1613b are the short sections. IMG1612b is where the flex track meets one of the bridges.

Original layout.jpg is how the layout was wired and Modified layout.jpg is with extra droppers.

Maybe produce a coloured version for me. 

Thanks again,

Ian


----------



## DonR

Nope...sorry...The drops for the 'inner' loop and it's track in
the crossover must be reversed. As it is you would get a short
when you set the points to cross.

So the following drops must be flipped:
2, 6, 7, and 10. 

To simplify, at the double crossover the top rail
of the top track is Red. The top rail of the
bottom track must also be red. That way
when the points are to to cross you will be
connecting red rail to red rail. 

I may have got the turnout numbers wrong so here again
is where to connect the reverse loop controllers:

Connect #A to the mid point of the yellow track between the
crossing and PM2,

Connect #B to the mid point of white loop from the crossing to PM 4

That should get your going without a problem.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

Back again. Have done some testing with Rocky Mountaineer loco and my 2 Australian locos. Apart from dirty wheels - what's the best way to clean them manually - on my Australian "S Class" loco things seem OK.

I have installed micro NC/NO switches on most of my points - have to change a Hornby left hand point and its surface mounted motor with a Peco ST241 and Peco PL11 motor - and they seem to work fine. More photos on those later as I have a problem installing a micro on one of the motor positions

I am attaching a schematic of part of my control panel layout with the double crossover section with its indication LEDs - Bi-colour 3 prong LEDs. I'm not sure but I think I may have too many LEDs, and yet to work out connecting the LEDs correctly. 

The notes I think are self explanatory. What is your take on what I need?
FWIW I am using Green for straight through and Red on diverge indication and vice-versa. (Does that make sense?)

Thanks,

Ian


----------



## ianb26

Sorry, but I have another question to ask. I was to late to add to the previous post before I was timed out. (Couple of hours). 

Which is better for changing CVs, the programming track or on the main track?

Thanks.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

I agree. I would change to fewer panel LEDs at the Double Crossover.

Have one in the outer track between the turnouts, likewise one
in lower track between the turnouts. When points are set straight
the LEDs would be GREEN. RED when the points are set for divert.

Then you would have one LED in the croossover left to right track,
and one in the crossover right to Left. It would be RED when the
points are straight, GREEN when points set to divert.

Now, if all four of your turnouts throw with ONE switch you could
even have only ONE LED in the panel where the X crosses. It would
be RED when the points are straight, GREEN when set to cross.

I feel that the fewer LEDs the easier to see how the points are set.

My Bachmann EZ DCC controller does not have the capability of
setting CVs, but from the suggestions of those who have NCE or
Digitrax systems, I understand that it is desirable to have a program
track where you set the CVs. I understand that there is a separate
feed from the controller to the program track. Any of the NCE or
Digitrax guys should correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't understand the 'time out'. i'm not aware that you
have any limits. You can now edit up to 10 days after 
original post I'm told.

Don


----------



## Cycleops

There is no 'better' for decoder programming.. Its a good idea to have a separate programming track isolated from the rest of your track and controlled with a DPDT switch. You can also programme 'on the main' which allows you to programme a particular loco without shutting down the whole track but some decoders don't support it, NCE do.

If you have a NCE system you can use their auto SW module which allows you to set your programme track on and the Main will be off.


----------



## ianb26

Cycleops said:


> If you have a NCE system you can use their auto SW module which allows you to set your programme track on and the Main will be off.


Thanks. I have a Digitrax DCS50. I also have a completely isolated length of programming track. It is my original DC test track. Its on a strip of timber about a metre long, with provision for clipping it to the Digitrax programming mode.

Don, I will reply to you separately.

Ian


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I agree. I would change to fewer panel LEDs at the Double Crossover.
> 
> Have one in the outer track between the turnouts, likewise one
> in lower track between the turnouts. When points are set straight
> the LEDs would be GREEN. RED when the points are set for divert.
> 
> 
> I don't understand the 'time out'. i'm not aware that you
> have any limits. You can now edit up to 10 days after
> original post I'm told.
> 
> Don


That's what I was originally going to do. (See attachment)
Do you agree with the link wiring of the LEDs - Red to Green & Green to Red?

Once again, sorry to be a "PIA". 

Re the "time out". When I login I just tend to stay logged in, don't bother logging out, but after a certain time the system logs me out.


----------



## DonR

Ian

The wiring you show for your crossover LEDs look good to me.
I am assuming that you will connect PM6 and PM5 so their
points will throw at the same time. Same with PM8 and PM7.

If you connected ALL four together you could have just one LED in
the center of the panel X and one in each track. That would work because when
either pair is set to diverge both tracks would be tied up.

I didn't know the Forum un logs a person. :dunno: I seldom log out and
I haven't encountered a system log off. You don't suppose
it is discriminating against Aussies...gasp. Might be that
mean ole GunrunnerJohn.  He gets rough every once in a while.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> The wiring you show for your crossover LEDs look good to me.
> I am assuming that you will connect PM6 and PM5 so their
> points will throw at the same time. Same with PM8 and PM7.
> 
> 
> Don


Hi Don, 
That's exactly how it is setup. 

I'm in the process of wiring in the micro switches at the moment. Point PM4 is a problem ATM as the Hornby surface mounted motor won't allow me to use the microswitch as the pressure on the switch won't allow the point to stay in one position. I've ordered a Peco ST241 left hand point and Peco PL11 surface mounted motor. The Peco combination seems to take the pressure of the microswitch OK.

PM2 is giving me grief at the moment as there is nowhere close to mount the microswitch. I may have to consider some type of link between the throwbar and the switch under the board some where.

I have attached a couple of photos of PM4 and the limited space with PM2. Also more photos of control panel wiring.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Kudos Ian

Your wiring is fine work. It's so easy for so many cables and wires
to grow into a rats nest but you have it all under control.

'Fraid I'm not well versed in levers that would solve your
micro switch location problem. Would it be too late to
change to an under table PL10 machine with Peco's optional
switches added for that unusually close turnout? Or perhaps
simpleyuse a piano wire attached to the PL10 throw bar
to trip the micro switch.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Kudos Ian
> 
> Your wiring is fine work. It's so easy for so many cables and wires
> to grow into a rats nest but you have it all under control.
> 
> 'Fraid I'm not well versed in levers that would solve your
> micro switch location problem. Would it be too late to
> change to an under table PL10 machine with Peco's optional
> switches added for that unusually close turnout? Or perhaps
> simpleyuse a piano wire attached to the PL10 throw bar
> to trip the micro switch.
> 
> Don


Thanks for the comment, much appreciated.

Re changing to PL10 & PL13. It can be done, but it is a big hassle to do it, because of the location of the point. I'll give it some thought over the weekend. It means I would have to cut a hole in the board and I think I have a cross brace directly beneath it!

The LED indications for the crossover work fine! :thumbsup: 

Ian.


----------



## ianb26

Well, I think I have solved the problem of the location of the micro switch for that point. My first attempt was not successful as I made a strip of 3mm wide by 2mm thick from an Evergreen styrene sheet and put a 90 degree twist in it. It was good in theory but it was too flexible and wouldn't work properly. My 2nd and successful attempt was a strip of aluminium 80mm by 3mm by 1.5mm with a slight bend (2 to be precise) to lower the height from the cross bar towards the board.

I thought its closeness towards the rail may have impeded the locos going past it, but no problems.  Everything seems to be ok. I have attached 2 photos of the setup, one depicts straight through and the other in the diverge position.

One other question. What is the best way to clean the rails. One loco has trouble moving, one won't move at all and the third one - Rocky Mountaineer - seems to be OK. I was thinking of using a Peco track rubber. Also the best way to clean the wheels on the other 2 locos. 

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

The members will offer several different ways to clean the rail heads.

I use a plain kitchen sink scrubber, followed by a wipe with a
rag with some alcohol on it. I have a track cleaning car also.
It has a felt pad that is soaked in alcohol which I run about
once a month. In my climate controlled room that's all that
is needed.

The easy way to clean loco wheels is to place a paper towel on the
track, pour a few drops of alcohol where it's over the rails, then
run the loco front wheels up onto the alcohol soaked paper, Hold
the loco with your hand and run up the speed to spin the wheels on the
paper. Then put the paper behind the loco and repeat.

Anxious to see the layout in operation.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> I have a track cleaning car also.
> 
> Anxious to see the layout in operation.
> 
> Don


I have an old Hornby track cleaning car, but I have to change the couplings to Kadee's, or make a transition car from a 4 wheel wagon. I have 2 Hornby 4 wheel wagons. One I am going to use as a camera wagon.

Here is a link to the review of the cam I am thinking of getting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wmIyD1fM4M&index=8&list=PLAA9D2B991DFB89B8

A video of the layout is still some way off yet, as I am still in the process of making up the passenger wagon kits. Must get on and spray the colour this weekend, hopefully. At the moment I am only running locos on their own, and need to adjust the Digitrax AR1's as in one section the locos seem to want to stop. The problem with adjusting them is I have to raise the layout to get to them, which means I have to stand on a ladder to run the controller, then go under the head height position of the layout to do most of the adjustments.

So a bit of a drag at the moment.

As an aside, what should the average volts be on the track. I appear to be getting only 11.5 to 12 volts (DCC system)

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

I think that is the mini camera my brother got to do cab view
videos of his layout. I'm looking forward to seeing it when I
visit Illinois in April. The videos he has sent me are very good
indeed. I found the perspective to be amazing. The locos and
freight cars sitting on sidings as we passed were amazingly life like.

My Bachmann EZ DCC controller is putting 19 volts on my layout
even with 9 decoders, 3 lighted cabooses and 4 lighted passenger
cars pulling current. I grant the reading is from a plain cheap
multimeter, so is not giving an accurate reading of the square
wave AC. However, on your layout, 12 volts does seem low,
is there any kind of device
between your controller output and the track? Other's have
had readings from 14 to 16.7 volts. The low voltage could affect
the sensitivity of the AR1. Is the locomotive stopping due to a short
circuit because the device is not changing phase? If it is stopping
after going into the isolated section, with the light off, I would say the AR1 is not 
getting power to the isolated section, or it may not be getting power
from your DCC buss.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Don,

There is no problems with anything extra causing volt drop on tracks. I disconnected the track bus from the Digitrax DCS50 and I had 12 - 13 volts, but after a while it went to 13 - 14 volts, so I don't know if there is a problem with the Digitrax unit. I bought it secondhand about 8 or 9 months ago at a train show. 

I am attaching marked up layout and explanation sheet of voltage readings. I think they are self explanatory. 

It appears I may have to add another set of droppers at reading point 13 (lower left hand corner). If you can, have a look and see what you - or anyone else - thinks.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

From what you describe that turnout may be power routing and 
when set to straight it cuts power to the divert. The insulated
joiners just a short distance away prevents power from the 
other droppers. Just a drop from the divert frog rail should
restore power on a continuous basis.

I just perused the Digitrax web site. As far as I can tell your DCS50
should be putting around 15 volts on the track. I think I've seen
other members mention that the track voltage goes up slightly
with controller warm up. I have not checked that on my system.
If yours gets to 14 volts I would think that sufficient. Check the AR1
instructions to see if they specify a minimum operating voltage.

I was just reading posts to another website regarding the timing
of the AR1 as related to solid state circuit breakers. It seems
that the 'mechanical' (relay) of the AR1 is slower to react to
the 'short' when the wheels span the insulators and the solid
state breaker tripped. The AR1 has been a mainstay for
some time, but some are now recommending solid state
reverse controllers such as the PSX-AR. The reason, Ian,
that I mention this is that I still don't know why your
loco stopped at the one isolated section, and this could be
it.

Don


----------



## Cycleops

ianb26 said:


> Don,
> 
> There is no problems with anything extra causing volt drop on tracks. I disconnected the track bus from the Digitrax DCS50 and I had 12 - 13 volts, but after a while it went to 13 - 14 volts, so I don't know if there is a problem with the Digitrax unit. I bought it secondhand about 8 or 9 months ago at a train show.
> 
> I am attaching marked up layout and explanation sheet of voltage readings. I think they are self explanatory.
> 
> It appears I may have to add another set of droppers at reading point 13 (lower left hand corner). If you can, have a look and see what you - or anyone else - thinks.
> 
> Ian


I understand it is not possible to accurately measure DCC output with a conventional multimeter.


----------



## DonR

True, it takes a more sophisticated device to
accurately read the DCC power, but you do get a relative reading with an
ordinary meter that can be used for the more mundane needs of
the model layout. 

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi all, back again.

Just an update on proceedings. I am currently doing final checks on all the track, with just one loco at the moment, my Christmas present Rocky Mountaineer, I have found that in a couple of spots I have had to put in a check rail - or a short small piece of styrene on one side only as the loco wanted to leave the tracks.  Also in other spots I found that if I put a camber on the track on curves it also helped to keep the loco on the tracks. All I have to do now is run the loco the other way. Then do the same thing with the current other 2 locos.

Initial direction is anti-clockwise, so now to try it out clockwise. 

One other thing I am contemplating is building a shed/train room on the back of the house. I don't have much room out back, but I have figured I can put a 3 metre x 2 metre against the back wall. *BUT* I have one obstacle to overcome in building of this project! On initially suggesting this to *SWKB*, it went over like a lead balloon. 

But I will keep pushing the idea. 

With the 3 metres in length I can add extra track. Making a section with a turntable and some fiddle tracks. This would come off at right angles to the main board. I am attaching the main layout pic with the position of where the extension would be added highlighted in BLUE (left hand lower corner) and the pic of the extension layout. I have marked where I intend to put droppers for the track feeds. Also where the extension ties into the main layout in PURPLE. I think I may have "overkill" with amount of droppers I have marked in. Maybe this is a query for Don R. 

Also, I think, correct me if I am wrong, I will have to put in another AR1, but not sure where to put it and if so where would be the best place to put insulated joiners.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Glad to see you back. Sounds like another
big 'possible' project.

I guess you are asking about an AR1 for
the turntable. That depends on the
turntable. Some accomodate the phasing
shifts in their internal wiring, some don't.
Check the manual that came with yours.

If yours doesn't you would need another
AR1 that would control the turntable track.
So no additional insulated joiners would
be required. You would wire the engine house
tracks to the main buss. 

You could also control the turntable track
with a DPDT switch with the center tabs
feeding the turntable track, the main buss
connected to one end tabs, then a X from
that to the other end tabs.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> Ian
> 
> 
> I guess you are asking about an AR1 for
> the turntable. That depends on the
> turntable. Some accomodate the phasing
> shifts in their internal wiring, some don't.
> Check the manual that came with yours.
> 
> 
> Don


Thanks Don.

I don't have the turntable yet. But the one I have used in the planning is the Atlas #305. I will have a look on the Atlas website and see if I can get the manual. I don't want to buy one if I can't go ahead with this. (Depends on *SWKB*  ) Ok, on with testing!


----------



## ianb26

I looked up the Atlas web site and got details of the turntable, which has 21 "entries", but on the instruction sheet it states _"Notice also that track positions around your turntable are indentified by the letters A & B. There are six A and five B positions." _With position 1 being on the right hand side of the "control" housing. I will be using positions 2 & 8. How does that work as it appears that only every other position is used.

I hope that is clear enough.


----------



## DonR

I read the electrical portion of the Atlas turntable manual.
It claims to adjust
the phasing (polarity) so you most likely would
not need to do any special wiring or insulated
joiners. No need for another AR1.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi there again,

As I mentioned in my last posts, I was thinking of adding a room/shed to the back of the house for my layout and its extension, but that went over like a "lead balloon" with SWKB! She was adamant that it "ain't gonna happen". :smilie_daumenneg:

So my Option B is to extend the layout - should have done that when I first started. 

Anyway I have designed the extension - not the same as the pic I added previously - and joined it to the main layout at right angles. It now includes 3 dead end platform faces and the turntable. There are 3 tracks between platforms 1 & 3. The centre track acts as a shunting track to take the locos off the trains and connect again at the other end. Depending which locos I use, they will be turned on the turntable. Anyway I am attaching a further pic of the final layout. 

The quality of the print is not perfect as I am having trouble with my printer. On standard setting with ordinary paper it prints with dark & light bands as can be seen on my previous post, but if I set to Photo printing and high quality - which the attachment is - it does not print the bands, but gives a more blurry print, weird!


----------



## DonR

The drawing is perfect, Ian. Very sharp and clear.

Your addition looks interesting. i see you are using
a 3 way turnout. Very nice.

I assume the terminal tracks are longer than
the drawing shows, as a passenger train can grow 
to great lengths.

The plan makes for interesting loco moves. The train
goes in loco first, you uncouple it, and shunt it to
the rear of the train, ready to return to the main line.
Or send it to the service area and bring out a new one.

I watched a video the other day on how Amtrak moves
locos in the Washington DC Union Station. Amtrak routes
are all electric from Washington, through Baltimore,
Philadelphis, Newark, Penn Station in New York City and
on to Boston. South and West of Washington, however, there is
no electrification. So Amtrak must change locos in
the station trackage.

You could also work out a 'change of locos' for your
terminal.

Don


----------



## ianb26

DonR said:


> I see you are using
> a 3 way turnout. Very nice.
> 
> Don


Yes, although I may change it to a "Y" turnout. Not sure yet.
FWIW All turnouts (points  ) are Peco. Either Settrack or Streamline.



DonR said:


> I assume the terminal tracks are longer than
> the drawing shows, as a passenger train can grow
> to great lengths.
> 
> Don


The trains will be no longer than 3 cars, 2 passenger and - what we call in Australia - a Guards Van, same length as the passenger cars. I will try and find some photos of them and send in a later post.


----------



## ianb26

Hi there,

Another update on the extension. Showed grandson the layout for the update and he came up with a brilliant suggestion and I agreed with him. He suggested we put extra tracks leading off the turntable. So I went back into SCARM and added the section circled as well as the stubs on the left end.

The frame work for the extension sheet of ply has been manufactured - just waiting for the glue to dry - so it will be bolted on to the main layout tomorrow. Received sheets of cork in the mail today for the roadbed. Have most of the track pieces. Have to get the points over the next 3 or 4 weeks as the money situation dictates. 

The pic of the layout is attached.


----------



## DonR

Your grandson is pretty sharp. Good idea.
One or more of the added tracks off the turntable could
be for locomotive servicing. You could have diesel fueling
and also a sand tower. I forget if you have any steamers.
If so, you could add a water tower and coaling tower.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Getting on with the extension. Done it a bit differently to the original layout with the roadbed. Using cork still, but I got a bundle of about (a little bit smaller) A4 size sheets on ebay, and taped them to the board. Laid down the full scale printouts of the layout, temporarily pinned the turnouts and track sections over the printed area, then started to cut round the printouts and remove the paper, then proceeded to take the cork off that is not required. 

When all the track sections of cork are cut I will outline the cork on the board with a marker then glue the cork down.

However I am in 2 minds whether to remove ALL the cork not required or just some of it. I have attached the latest photos. The last 2 - 0149a & 0150a I have VERY roughly hatched in 3 areas in *RED*, *GREEN*, and *YELLOW*. *RED* is between the first 2 tracks from the bottom where there is no platform. I wasn't sure whether to remove this or not as there will be ballast laid between the tracks which may spill over to this area. *GREEN* is the platform areas, so the cork will be removed from these areas anyway. *YELLOW* is the larger areas in which I *MAY* add trees, bushes and buildings at a later time.

I was wondering what the general consensus would be.


----------



## DonR

Always nice to see good work workmanship. I'm the
klutzy make it do type.

I think you are talking about the foam 'roadbed', and if
so there are varying 'minds' on that.

I like my yard and spur tracks lie flat onto the table top
and let the ballast, dirt, weeds and assorted junk even
cover some of the ties. But a lot of guys like the
neat cleanly ballasted look. This will be what you like
best.

Always good to see more yard and spur tracks. It is
surprising how quickly they all fill with cars and locos.
I don't have any more yard room for cars. Makes me 
feel kinda out of the game when I go to train shows.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted for a while, so an update on what is happening. I have completed track layout for extension, and added in platforms, bridge between platforms and general modifications as well as a turntable and 3 tracks branching off. (No photos yet, but they will appear over the coming weeks). But I have a request. I'm adding new signals on the extension, but instead of using 2 aspect red/green, I'm going to use single head with 2 colour tri lead red/green LEDs. I used this setup on my control panel with SPDT and DPDT switches for direction indicators. But what I want to do with the single head signal is also use the red/green combination to produce yellow/amber/orange signal, but not sure of the wiring to produce the third colour. 

I don't want any "fancy"  electronic circuit, just a toggle or slide switch, possibly 3PDT or even a (if such a thing exists) SP3THROW or DP3THROW switch. Any help with a circuit would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## DonR

Ian

Good to see you back. Worried about you.

I use the 3 wire tri color LEDs.

You have the middle conductor as common.

The Long wire is RED the short wire is Green.

I seem to recall that to change the color to yellow, you simply feed power to both red and green.

I would think a simple SPST switch that effectively
connects both red and green would give you the
yellow when either red or green is lighted and
switch is 'ON".

You can test this by simply shorting between the
red and green leads when the LED is lighted
either color.

Put the resistor on the common lead.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

That's what I thought, which was my plan B. I was hoping to use only one switch per signal, but it looks like I have to use 2. It's no big deal. I have to go to the electronics shop later this afternoon, so I'll get a couple of switches and test it out.

Ian


----------



## ianb26

ianb26 said:


> That's what I thought, which was my plan B.


Well plan B doesn't work. I have attached a wiring diagram I thought would work *BUT NO* When the SPDT switch is set to *either* *RED* or *GREEN*, the LED lights up as *ORANGE* even when the SP Rocker Switch is OPEN.

When the SPDT is set to CENTRE OFF, and the SP Rocker switch is closed the LED lights *ORANGE*, which it is supposed to do. It seems I have to isolate the RED & GREEN colours some way.

Any one have any suggestions?

I await any comments.

Ian.


----------



## redman88

Get rid of the dotted lines. And the blue


----------



## ianb26

redman88 said:


> Get rid of the dotted lines. And the blue


Hi redman88,

The blue line is the 12V AC/DC supply to the SP rocker switch. I think you may have misinterpreted my problem. I am using 3 lead LED's in a single head signal system. The *RED* and *GREEN* colours from the single LED work ok. When the *RED* *and* *GREEN* colours are joined together they give the *ORANGE* colour.

So I need to be able to control the *ORANGE* colour by the SP rocker switch.

Ian


----------



## redman88

Regular diode in line on the dotted lines


----------



## wvgca

ianb26 said:


> So I need to be able to control the *ORANGE* colour by the SP rocker switch.
> 
> Ian


delete the blue power feed, in normal operation you will already have power to one or the other led's ..

use the rocker to join positive sides of each led for orange [one to EACH side],

right now you have them permanently joined together at the bottom of the switch as shown in your image, so always orange even if rocker off

try it


----------



## redman88

wvgca said:


> delete the blue power feed, in normal operation you will already have power to one or the other led's ..
> 
> use the rocker to join positive sides of each led for orange [one to EACH side],
> 
> right now you have them permanently joined together at the bottom of the switch as shown in your image, so always orange even if rocker off
> 
> try it



Quicker and easier then the diode.


----------



## ianb26

wvgca said:


> delete the blue power feed, in normal operation you will already have power to one or the other led's ..
> use the rocker to join positive sides of each led for orange [one to EACH side],
> try it


Thanks, works perfectly. I have been testing them on 3V, so I'll now add 560 ohm resistors to each colour and test them on 12V.

Thanks again for help.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

Glad you got good advice. I went to a train show
yesterday so missed out on a lot of the Forum.

Good to see you making progress.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi there,

Long time since I was on. I have been making steady progress with the extension section. I have one more query. I am adding a DPDT switch with centre off for the turntable control. My initial plan was to add 2 LEDs - (blue and orange) - to show the direction of travel for the turntable - but I'm not sure of the circuitry. My first go had both LEDs on instead of the one needed at the time. I THINK I need to insert a diode/s somewhere in the circuit. If this is the case please advise me what sort, e.g., 1N004, and how many would be required..

Can anyone advise me of the correct way to do it. My electronics knowledge has deserted me over the years.

Thanks in advance for any help


----------



## DonR

Ian

So good to see you back. It's been a while.

Do you have the layout operating?

On the DPDT center off switch the turntable motor wires would
be connected to the 2 center tabs. The DC input to
the tabs on one end with the X to the other 2 tabs
as you have in the drawing.

I would connect the LEDs through limiting resistors across the
motor leads. They would light ONLY when you
were operating the motor. I would prefer to
use a blocking diode in each LED circuit (but that
may not be needed) wired so that 'red' LED lighted
when clockwise, 'green' lights when counterclockwise.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Thanks Don, 

Been busy with babysitting grandchildren, and I was laid low for a few days with an "angry" throat, but OK now. Thanks for your reply. With regards to a running session, nothing happening until I get derailment problems sorted out, but I have given you a link to my Youtube update, which may help to show what I have done.






Enjoy.

Ian

EDIT: Don, just tried a hookup with what you suggested, but no go. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Could you do a markup on my drawing, or a rough drawing yourself. Sorry if "I know understand"  , but as I said my electronics knowledge seems to be fading as the years go by. hwell:


----------



## DonR

Ian

I'm hobbled by a low computer tech brain so I've had
to do narrations when talking wiring.

You would wire your turntable motor per your
drawing in post 176. It's a very simple and
straight forward hookup.

Try that without the LEDs. It should work if your
connections are solid. 

If it doesn't, use your multimeter on DC and check where
you are losing power. 

Once, you have the motor responding to the switch,
put a resistor in series with an LED and while running
the motor touch the wires across the motor leads.
If it doesn't light, reverse the LED wires on the motor
leads. Then do the same with the other LED while
you reverse the motor. You should end up with
Red lighting when turntable runs clockwise, and green
when counter clockwise (or vs vs).

Very impressive work you've done Ian. The layout is larger
than I had remembered. Looking forward to seeing the
first loco roll around the main.

Don

Don


----------



## ianb26

Thanks Don,

That worked fine, albeit with only 3 volts. So now I will find the right resistors, and check it with 12 volts. I have to go to the electronics shop this afternoon for some more parts, so will recheck it then. 

Ian

EDIT: OK, working good, resistors @ 12 volts. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## ianb26

Back again!!! 

Just a "heads up" on progress. As you may have read on a previous reply to this post, I was sorting out a derailment problem. It was caused by to steep an incline exiting/entering a tunnel. I ripped out the section of track containing the problem and started again.

I used 2 lengths of flex track (1&1/2 to be exact) to relay this section. The original had a joint just prior to entering the tunnel and this was the start of my problem. The section consisted of a mixture of straight, curved and flex which didn't help.

By using the 2 flex tracks -joints pre-soldered before shaping - from the bottom of the incline to top and into the tunnel where a new joint has been created gave me the correct incline, then measured the gaps from the bottom of the sleepers, (I think you call them ties in Nth America), to the top of the original incline less 6mm for cork roadbed.

I used leftover Woodland Scenics inclines to build up to the correct height. Joined the bottom end to original track and anchored the top with a clamp to the original section there. I then hand moved my 3 main locos to check for derailment issues, and this appeared to have fixed the problem. I was going to lay a glue to the cork and the track and stick down as I couldn't use track nails because of the foam of the inclines.

So I cut the top end of the track to match up with the original. Being on a curve the joints are staggered. As I had the new flex laying on top of the original to mark it for cutting, one side was ok, but I mistook the end of the original track and it was about 3mm short so I now have a gap which I will fill with solder. Consequently I now can't anchor the track the way I wanted to. So, after all my rambling above, how can I glue the track without lifting it. Is there an easy way to do this? 

I have attached some photos.
0170a, 0171b - Original track & details.
0178 - Closeup of original track
0179, 0179a - New track & details
0180, 0180a - Closeup of new track & details.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Good to see your progress, Ian. It's been a while
since your last post. 

Looking good.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi there, back again  It has been nearly 3 months since I was last here. I sorted out the incline OK. 2 photos attached, 0179a & 0180a. Just when I thought everything was OK, more problems popped up. 
The track leading from the bridge - see photo 079 - to the trestle was causing problems, so some re-engineering of the track took place and it is now right. I had a mixture of part curve, straight, and flex track, so I got rid of the curve and straight and realigned the flex starting at the bridge and making a gentler curve over the trestle. This now works OK.

I now have trouble with the turntable, Atlas 305. When the loco enters the turntable from the main line a short occurs. I am using 4 positions on the turntable and it occurs on all 4 most of the time, except that occasionally #4 position is OK. The loco is not picking up volts on the turntable. There is 12.5 volts on tracks at entry to turntable, but the tracks on the turntable are only about 1.5 volts, even thought the voltage at the back of the turntable is 12.5 volts. Seems as thought the sliprings are not working properly. Photos tt1, tt2, tt3 and tt4 show all connections

What am I doing to cause the short as soon as the bogies make contact with the turntable. Would the addition of a Digitrax AR1 solve the problem? If so, where would it wire to?

Thanks for persevering with this long winded post.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

Sure has been a long time, no see.

I checked the on line manual of the 305.
It shows a dual switch that controls the
motor and the turntable track phase.

If you don't use that switch you'll need an AR1 or a DPDT switch
in the feed to the turntable track. I would wire 
all of the individual storage tracks to be in phase to your
main coming in. The phase of the track on the turntable
would be controlled by the AR1 or a DPDT switch. If you
set the turntable track to the same phase as the main
coming in by the DPDT then as long as you don't reverse
the loco on the turntable, the phase of the turntable
track will match the storage tracks. If you use the
turntable to reverse the loco you would use the DPDT
to change the phase of the turntable track to match the
main and the storage tracks. Obviously,
the AR1 would take away all the guessing and switch
fiddling. The input of the AR1 would be your main
DCC bus the output goes to the turntable track.

If you use the DPDT switch, the DCC bus will connect
to the terminals on one end, then an X wire reverse
from that end to the other. The feed to the turntable
track would be the 2 center terminals. That way the
turntable will get bus phase in one position, and a
reversed phase in the other.

Hope that gets you going.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

Thanks for your comments. I think I will go with the AR1. I've emailed my local online train store to see if he has any in stock. I would rather pay local postages than the exorbitant rates that some ebay sellers in the USA charge. I found 2 instances of an AR1 for $US31.00 and $US35.00 (in round figures), one wanted about $US30.00 and the other one about $US40.00 for postage to Australia!!!! Would I need isolating rail joiners on the main track, as there is a joint about 100mm - oops I mean 4 inches - from the turntable. See attachment. 

I also need to try and examine the sliprings on the turntable to see what is causing the low voltage, but can't find how to check them out. Like dismantling the table. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Ian.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen

You don't need any isolation of the tracks leading up to the turntable. Its only the rotating section of track directly on the turntable that has to be isolated and that should happen naturally due to the gaps between the turntable track and the leads into it.

Can't help you with diagnosing the turntable voltage issue. Probably dirty contacts as you've surmised.

Mark


----------



## ianb26

Hi all,

Back again. Finally getting things sorted out - not before time - but I still have the problem with the turntable connections. I replaced the second hand turntable with a new one. Much quieter now.

But need to insert a Digitrax AR1, but not sure of the connections, I'm assuming one side will go to "input" of the AR1 and the "output" will go to the turntable. I have attached the turntable portion of the track layout, with the current droppers location.

Thanks in advance for any help.


----------



## CTValleyRR

You are correct. The reversing unit needs to be wired to the bridge tracks of the turntable.


----------



## DonR

Ian

Glad to see you are back on the job.

CTvalley is correct as usual but I'd like to amplify
his post.

Your DCC bus is connected to the INPUT of 
your AR1. The OUTPUT of the AR1 is connected
to the turntable track. Ignore phase.

All of the tracks serving the turntable will have
drops to your DCC bus...they all should be the
same phase as the lead in track.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Thanks CTvalley & Don R,

I thought that was the correct connections, but I wanted to make sure.


----------



## ianb26

Hi all, back again. Getting all the derailing problems sorted out. Replacing a small amount of flex track with 18" curves. I have found that a lot of my problems with the wagon kits derailing was the flange depth on the supplied wheels. There is *VERY* small flange depth on them and this part of the problem.

I only discovered this when I was using a transition wagon with some old Hornby carriages. The wagon I used - attached photo - has one of the Horny D couplers replaced with a Kadee #5. The wheels on the wagon have a slightly deeper flange depth, as do some old Horny carriages.

The question now is, looking at the wheels on the wagon, where can I get wheel sets similar to the wagon. The wheels on the kits have axles with pin points approximately 25mm point to point. The prototype wheels are 36" or 38" diameter which equates to about 10mm plus 
or minus 2mm for the 36" and 11.1 mm for the 38". I am having trouble sourcing these in Australia. Could anyone help me out re sourcing in USA or maybe even in Europe.

Thanks in advance for any help. Also I am including a link to my Youtube channel latest post:


----------



## DonR

Here is a selection of wheel sets including 36 and 38"
from a respected dealer. You can opt the number
of wheel sets you want.

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?cat_s=URI&tag0_i=955

Hope that solves your derailing problems.

Don


----------



## ianb26

Well, here we are again.

I have been doing some modifications lately, particularly with my switch panel for the Structures and Scenics lighting. I originally had a panel 230mm (9 inches) x 160mm (6.25 inches) but I found that I did not have enough switches - 6 x 5v, 9 x 9v and 9 x 12v. I have now expanded the panel to 570mm (10 3/8 inches) x 160mm (6,25 inches).

It now contains 9 x 5v, 15 x 9v and 21 x 12v. The original panel meant I started to double up on switches instead of them single. I have also added a DC amp meter, DC voltmeter, 3 LEDs, for voltage indicator, and 2, rotary 3 pole switches to select the positive and negative voltage and amps loading for each voltage. I am attaching a copy of the wiring of meter end of the panel.

This is where I have found a problem with the wiring, which I thought was OK when I originally drew up the wiring, but that is not the case. The switches have the 3 voltages going to the centre terminals of both the positive and negative switches and with corresponding outputs to LEDs and to a special little fast acting fuse board I made up to wire in the meters.

When I select both positive and negative rotaries to 5v position,* BOTH 5v & 12v LEDs light - instead of just 5v* - voltage reads 5v. In the 9v position 9v LED lights *BUT there is no reading on the voltmeter*. The strange part now is if I set the negative rotary to 12v and positive rotary to 9v *BOTH 5v & 12v LEDs light but there is a 9v reading on the voltmeter.* Finally both rotaries set at 12v there is no LEDs or volts. In the top right of the drawing is the special fuse board for the meters.

Sorry to be a pain, but can someone tell me what is wrong with the wiring. I was an electrician in my younger days, but the brain doesn't function as well these days. 

If any more information is required please let me know. ..... Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

Good to see that you are still active.

I'll let those with better knowledge of wheel
flanges help you with that question.

However, we have the good luck of having the
brain of my son who is an electric engineer to
solve your panel problem. 

We made a blowup of your wiring diagram and we
think that your mysterious LED lighting is caused by
the three positive and also negative leads tied together
at the fuse block. This allows voltage to feed back to
the various LEDs and light them. You can solve that
by using diodes in each of the six wires before connecting
them together. The diodes will block feedback voltage
and only the selected LED will light.

It's not clear why you are switching your layout lights.
And I wonder why the three different power sources.

Could you not have only one power source and use
a simple ON/OFF switch for each light bus?

Don


----------



## Lemonhawk

The current meter and voltmeter are in series with a load that I can't identify other than the LED's. The current meter needs to be in series with the load, but the voltmeter needs to be connected to + and - as if across the power supply output. Where or want is the load?


----------



## ianb26

Hi DonR,

Thank you - and your son - for the reply. As my post was quite long, I omitted the reasons for the 3 voltage supplies. 1). I found that when I was doing my investigations into how I would do the lighting, I saw that some areas were too bright, and others were quite dull. To fix this, I experimented and found that by using different voltages I could acquire the effect I wanted. Being a dabbler in electronics, I made 3 voltage converters, 240AC to 5/6v DC, 9v DC, and 12v DC. I also did 240vAC to 16v DC for point motors but abanoded that in preference to 16v AC. Note that I was using a multitap 240v AC transformer to 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15v AC.

2). I subscribe to a lot of model railway Youtube channels and one from a channel in the US in particular gave me the idea to completely use independent power supplies. I purchased 2 power supplies - 240v AC to 12v DC 30amps. This one has 3 12v DC outputs. I'm using 1 output @ 12vDC for my signalling circuits, 1 for the 12v DC on the scenics and 1 from 12v DC to 9v DC for part of the remaining scenics. The other is a 240v AC to 5v DC the other part of the remaining scenics.

I hope that explains why I went to separate power supplies. Also there are very finite readings on the ammeter, I think this is caused by the meter being 0 - 5A. I have the option of using 0 - 1A, 0 - 50uA, or 0 - 1mA. Which would you - or your son - suggest. Also would 1N4004 diodes be the go? I have drawn up a rough circuit with diodes. It is attached.

Sorry, I didn't intend this reply to go on for so long, but it gives an indication of what I am trying to do. Other comments from others as well would be welcome, and any alterations to my circuitry would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ian.

*EDIT:* I have also attached a copy of the complete wiring layout, unfortunately it is very small (28% of original to fit as one) so you will have to enlarge to understand it all.

Thanks


----------



## ianb26

Lemonhawk,

I hope the extra information may help you understand what I need.

Ian


----------



## DonR

Ian

Yep, the diodes you have in your new schematic should do the trick. 

You sure do have the power supplies.

I have one 12 volt supply for my building and
street lighting which is a mix of tiny incandescent
bubs and the strip type LEDs for most of my
building lighting. I also have a 18 volt doorbell
transformer with a rectifier that powers
my twin coil turnouts thru a CDU to
protect the coils from burnout.


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don, 

Thanks for that. 1 query - I think I have the polarity of the diodes the wrong way round. Could you confirm this please. *I have now attached a new wiring diagram with the diodes polarities reversed.
*
Thanks.

Ian


----------



## ianb26

Hi Don,

Problem seems to have been fixed by using the diodes. There is one minor problem. I used 1N4004 diodes. The voltage readings on the meter are showing approx. 1volt less than the input. I have 0 - 1A ammeter that is not showing any movement of the needle. Is this normal for LEDs? I have about 4 incandescent lamps as well which are going to be replaced with LEDs which don't even move the meter.

Would a 0 - 1mA or 0 - 50uA be a better meter to use. FYI I am attaching a revised drawing of the PCB along with a photo of the finished article.

Ian


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## DonR

Glad you got the diodes 'heading' right. 

I haven't measured the voltage drop of the diodes but
I suspect that is the reason for your loss of a volt. In my
diode matrix yard turnout controls I do have a voltage
drop.

To measure amps the meter needs to be in series with
one lead of the load. I'm not familiar with the specs
of ammeters so can't advise on that. My engineer
son has returned to California so I no longer have his help.

To measure volts the meter needs to be across the two
leads.

In your drawing the two meters seem to be in series.

Don


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## ianb26

DonR said:


> To measure volts the meter needs to be across the two
> leads.
> 
> In your drawing the two meters seem to be in series.
> 
> Don


Hi Don (and others that may be able to help)

I realise that, I know that normally the voltmeter goes across the output, but in this case the setup is only for measuring the incoming voltage from the 3 inputs. It appears to be doing that job, apart from the volts being about 1 volt less than the input probably due to the diodes, but not sure about the ammeter as I swapped a 0-5volt DC meter for a 0-1volt.

Would a 0-1mA or even a 0-50uA, be a better proposition?

Any help would be appreciated as the brain doesn't appear to function as well as 40 - 50 years ago. 

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

Your measuring the current required by the voltmeter, which is tiny. You need to have the current meter in series with the load and the voltmeter across the load, that why you need to specify where the load is. At the moment it's the voltmeter and it should never be the load!


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## DonR

Ian

What amp reading do you get when you connect
your present meter in series with the load? From
your description of the lighting I would guess you
probably are not drawing much more than 
two or three amps depending on the number of incandescent
bulbs that are in the circuit. The LEDs are very low
draw, but the incandescents can run up the current.

I don't have the knowledge to advise on the
proper ammeter.

Don

Don


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## ianb26

Thanks guys for your replies.

I have modified the circuitry, but I think I am still at square one. See attached circuit.

Re number of incandescent bulbs, there are a total of 11, to be relaced with LEDs.

Currently I don't get any readings on the ammeter in its original position.

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

In the diagram above the only load is the voltmeter, which will be a very high impedance load (megaOHMs) so you will not read much of anything on the ammeter. I assume that you will be connecting other things to the same connection as the voltmeter, As you connect more "load" you might see something on the ammeter.


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## ianb26

Lemonhawk, thanks for your reply.

I'll try to explain, the background to what I am trying to achieve. I originally had PCB circuits converting 6v, 9v, and 12v AC to the 6, 9 & 12v DC. I found that the conversion component started to get hot when the incandescent lamps were on. The output was rated at about 0.5 to 1 Amp. A friend on YouTube stated he had installed a 240VAC to 12VDC power unit and it worked good. I have since purchased a 240VAC to 12VDC 30 amp supply. there are 3 outputs on the unit. I am using 1 output for 12v lighting, the second output for my signal controls and the third stepped down to 9v. I then purchased a 240VAC to 5VDC unit and am using that for the 5v supplies. I originally tried to stepup this unit to 6v but couldn't find a cost effective circuit for that purpose so I stuck with the 5v. All I wanted to do was monitor the amps and volts on those voltages, by using selector switches to control each voltage input through the meters, hence there is, per se, no load for the volt meter to connect across. I thought the way I did it would be easy. Bad mistake. 

It's probably me trying to be "too perfect". 

If you go back to my earlier post where I posted a wiring layout, and enlarge it, you will see the 3 lighting supplies - 5v, 9v, and 12v. The reason for the 3 voltages is that when I was setting up my structure and street lighting, I experimented with different voltages. Some of my structures - haven't started street - lighting was either to bright or to dark, so I tried different voltages. One particular structure has all 3 voltages as I couldn't achieve the desired effect with just one voltage.

Hence the selector switches for the 3 voltages. As some of the lights are incandescent, but most are LEDs, the power supply unit's fan kicks in. That's why I wanted to monitor amps and volts.

This post has gone on for longer than I anticipated, but I hope you can see what I am trying to do. It appears the "sticking point" is the "invisible" output for the volt meter. If you, or anyone else out there, can steer me in the right direction, I would be most appreciative. The thing that embarrasses me the most is that I was an electrician for about 30 - 40 years, but since retiring in 1992, the brain has now gone "fuzzy". (I am in my mid 70s).

Sorry for the long rant.

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

Well, Ian I'm a 74 year old retired Electrical Engineer also. I was a little worried about the 240 Vac, but I see your from Australia so that part is OK. On your diagram, I see the 3 voltages coming in from the selector switch, and you have diode protection so which ever voltage you selected will not go back thru some other voltage. My guess is that the lights and whatever else you have are connected to the specific voltages before this circuit. And if so then you will never see the current going thru the to the lights. You have to get that ammeter in series with the load (the lights and such) to see the current draw. Which means 3 ammeters not just one or you make the switching more complicated.


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## ianb26

Thanks Lemonhawk,

I can see where you are coming from. I just had another thought, and to back it up, I went to ebay. I'm thinking 3 of the meters in the attached jpg, could solve my problem. I could then eliminate the selector switches.

What is your take on that suggestion?

FWIW I was only a "lowly electrician", not an Electrical Engineer. Working on - I'm not sure of your equivalent in USA - 415/240 volt supplies. (?/110)

I await your reply, and any further comments. Also I may attempt to "pick your brain" if you don't mind.   

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

That would be my pick. You could look at Banggood.com and see what the price is direct from China (it takes a few weeks) but I think eliminating the switching is a great idea. I also spent a few summers as an electrician. But never on the commercial side or on voltages higher than 240v.


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## ianb26

Thanks Lemonhawk,

Those meters come from Hong Kong, $AU7.70 each for 3 or more. Would a shunt be required for any of them? 

Ian.


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## ianb26

Hi all,

Well after considering my options, I have decided to replace the analogue panel meters with digital volt/ammeters.

I have attached some pics of the meters I have just received. I am going to install 3 meters - for 5V, 9V, & 12VDC. Most of the meters on ebay have the leads that come with the meter as being thick RED & BLACK leads, and RED, YELLOW, & BLACK thin leads.

However the meters I have are all thin wires, but instead of R, Y, & BLK leads, mine are YELLOW, GREEN, & BLUE. What are the equivalents of the Y, G, & BLUE compared to the R, Y, BLK?

With attached thumbnails volt-ammeter 6.jpg, I won't be using the shunt, so where do the YELLOW & GREEN wires go? The load will be the 5V, 9V & 12V master switches which supply the respective voltages to the scenic & structures lighting. I will most likely use the wiring as shown in attached thumbnails vameter2.jpg, once I can find the equivalent colours to the usual R, Y, BLK. Does that make sense? 

Ian


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## DonR

Ian

Looks like great hi tech meters. But I'm a $4.99 (some times
free) Harbor Freight analog Volt/ohmeter guy. Red and black
probes. I hope one of our members has used
those fawncy devices and can help you.

Don


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## Lemonhawk

Well the red and black wires are to power the voltmeter and its display, it appears it can take a wide range of voltages and would need to be from a seperate power supply if the power supply that is going to run things is lower than 5 volts or is a variable power supply. Note that the upper red goes to the negative power supply terminal and the plack goes to the positive (+). A little concerned here about red being - on the upper 2 and + on the red for the lower 3 and is all connected in common to the power supply and the load. There is probably a low current shunt internally so the Green wire goes to the negative (ground /- ) terminal on the power supply and the yellow wire is then the negative terminal that you connect your load up to. Hopefully others will come to the same conclusion.


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## ianb26

Thanks Don and Lemonhawk.

Lemonhawk, which wiring diagram are you referring to, the first one or the second one?

As I won't be using anything higher than 12 volt, I intend to use the first one.

I have a further question, but I will wait until I receive your supply.

Thanks, Ian

*EDIT:*



Lemonhawk said:


> Hopefully others will come to the same conclusion.


Lemonhawk, no offence to you, I hope so too. As I am in Australia and about 15 - 18 hours ahead of USA, it could be tomorrow (Thursday, Aussie time) before I have reply from Lemonhawk, so if anybody is reading this - it is 12:28pm Wednesday Aussie time - it would be most appreciated as I need to get this wired soon.

Thanks again, 

Ian


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## ianb26

Just a quick question. As the maximum volts will be 12vDC and hopefully<10 amps and the 2nd wiring diagram having the same colour scheme as mine, I was thinking of using that diagram but *WITHOUT* the shunt.

The question is, by removing the shunt, where do the green and yellow wires connect to?

Thanks in advance,

Ian


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## ianb26

Hi there again,

Well, I have "bitten the bullet" and, after looking at YouTube, I decided to go with a circuit that suit my needs. *EXCEPT* that the 3 wire plug on the circuit I have gone with - which is the first one on my previous post - is RED, YELLOW, & BLACK, whereas mine are YELLOW, GREEN & BLUE. I think I have made the correct colour matches.

I have attached my wiring diagram, so if there are any mistakes or queries please let me know.

Thanks,

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

I was using the lower diagram, as I thought it was the same as the color code on the units you bought. And you don't need a shunt if you stay under 30 amps. The plug with 2 wires supplies the power to run the meters electronics and display. In your case all 3 of your power supplies have enough voltage (and current) to run the meters electronics so you don't need a seperate power supply to run the meter. 
I would first connect the Positive output of your power supply to the black wire and the negative output of the power supply to the red wire and see if the meter at least turns on. I'm a little bothered by the red being negative and the black positive, but that's what the diagram says. If the meter lights up, then connect the black and blue wires together and connect them to positive (+) terminal of the power supply and the positive side of your 2 pole switch. Then connect the red and green wires together and connect them to the negative (-) side of your power supply. The yellow wire then goes to the negative pole of your 2 pole switch and out to power your layout.


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## ianb26

Thanks, Lemonhawk.

I was in the process of testing one of the meters yesterday, but ran out of time as we had to go out. I will continue with the test today, and see how my circuit goes. If I have problems, I will try your suggestions. FWIW, the only reason I didn't use the 2nd one was because of the shunt.

Thanks for your help with this. As I have mentioned a few times before, when the 70s are reached the brain tends to go fuzzy. When I was an apprentice and then a tradie, digital meters were not even around. Spending all my working life on AC supplies I didn't get to work on DC supplies, except for the first couple of years in my apprenticeship.

Ian

*EDIT:*It is now some hours later and I *NEARLY* blew the meter up! The only damage done was the Green & Black wires overheated and partly melted the insulation! I used MY circuit diagram so there could be a problem with the way I drew it up. I will use the suggestions you gave me. 

I found a website that shows the connections with my colours and the common colours in brackets.
It is here: http://hamguyparts.com/files/Download/Chinese DVA.pdf

Also screen shot of the circuit with the colours on my meters is attached. NOTE they designated the Black & Red wires correctly (-) & (+).


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## ianb26

Hi, again,



Lemonhawk said:


> I would first connect the Positive output of your power supply to the black wire and the negative output of the power supply to the red wire and see if the meter at least turns on. I'm a little bothered by the red being negative and the black positive, but that's what the diagram says. If the meter lights up, then connect the black and blue wires together and connect them to positive (+) terminal of the power supply and the positive side of your 2 pole switch. Then connect the red and green wires together and connect them to the negative (-) side of your power supply. The yellow wire then goes to the negative pole of your 2 pole switch and out to power your layout.


Well, have redesigned the circuit, and SUCCESS!!!! Due to your concerns with positive & negative, I rechecked the web site, and found that the designation should have been the other way around, i.e. Red + and Black -, so connected red to red and black to black, blue to red & green to black. Yellow to -ve of the switch.

I made up a test load of DP switch and 6V globe powered by my test box which has 3,6,9 & 12v outputs - common -ve - selector switch and 4 AA batteries. The volts read about 5.75v (due to draining batteries) and ammeter reads 0.00 when switch is off (no load) but reads 100 when load applied (globe doesn't come on). That 100 reading has me slightly perturbed though. 

I won't know for sure until the proper power supply is applied. I'll set that up and see what happens. Thanks again, Lemonhawk, you have been most helpful.

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

Yes!!! Good job! Especially finding the power leads to the the meter were reversed was even better! My meters were ones with small gauge black and red wires with black negative, which is why I was concerned about them being reversed. You obviously have them right now - it works!


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## ianb26

Yes, I am quite pleased with myself, thanks to your help. 

Now to fix the burnt insulation on the black and green cables, and hook up the meters to their normal supply. On redoing the circuitry I found where the problem was, I had a dead short between +ve & -ve! 

I'll post again when all meters are connected and tested.

Ian


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## ianb26

*UPDATE*

All hooked up, no burnt insulation this time. 

But I do have a problem when switching the load *ON*, as can be seen with Load Test figures. Note the voltage at the load source - when the master switches are turned *ON* - is well down. Could there be a mix up with the colours from the meters?

Note the *NO LOAD* & *LOAD* amps.

As none of the structures lighting is working because of the low voltages, I'm not sure where to go from here.

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

I think the problem is that the loads share a common negative (common ground). For these meters to work, the loads need to be independent. That's my best guess. Since the shunt (internal or external) is on the negative side, they cannot have a common ground. With the switches in the OFF position, check to see if there is any resistance between any 2 of the 3 negative load terminals. I you can't isolate the negative sid of the loads, you won't be able to use these meter.


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## ianb26

Lemonhawk said:


> I think the problem is that the loads share a common negative (common ground). For these meters to work, the loads need to be independent. That's my best guess.


The 5V supply is completely independent from the 9V & 12V. It is a 240v AC to 5v DC power supply. The 9v and 12v are from a 240vAC to 12vDC rated @30 amps power supply. It has 3x12v outputs, I am using a stepdown converter to get the 9v from one of the 12v supply, a second 12v for the 12v supply and the third 12v supply powers the signals. So I would think that would rule out why the 5v is not doing what it should.



> With the switches in the OFF position, check to see if there is any resistance between any 2 of the 3 negative load terminals. If you can't isolate the negative side of the loads, you won't be able to use these meter.


I measured between the 9v & 12v negative loads and got a reading of about 4Mohms, but I had to hold the probes with my fingers for that to happen. 

Looks like I am back to square one. 

Any one, please, have any further comments to make? I am starting to get desperate now.

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

Well that sure shoots down a common "ground" issue. The 4 megs is probably your resistance, as you thought. I would not think a common ground on the power supplies would cause a problem. Did it work when you tried this with just one power supple connected?


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## Lemonhawk

Another thought is that the meter does not have an internal shunt. That would explain your results also. You could just use a wire as a shunt, connected between yellow an green and see if you can then at least power your load and read the right voltage. The current would not read right but at least we would know that its a missing shunt!


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## ianb26

Lemonhawk said:


> Did it work when you tried this with just one power supple connected?


I got exactly the same results with the test setup. The globe did not illuminate. To make sure the globe wasn't faulty I directly connected it to the supply and it was OK.



Lemonhawk said:


> Another thought is that the meter does not have an internal shunt. That would explain your results also. You could just use a wire as a shunt, connected between yellow an green and see if you can then at least power your load and read the right voltage. The current would not read right but at least we would know that its a missing shunt!


Will try that later today when I have some free time, as we are looking after the grandkids today! Does size matter as far as the wire is concerned?

Ian

*EDIT:*Would the resistor/s in the attachment be suitable?


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## Lemonhawk

Since we don't know the resistance of the shut that is required, to test this out just use whatever wire you have as a shunt. Hopefully that will make it all work (with an erroneous current reading) and we can go from there, but at least it might be working.


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## ianb26

Lemonhawk said:


> Since we don't know the resistance of the shut that is required, to test this out just use whatever wire you have as a shunt. Hopefully that will make it all work (with an erroneous current reading) and we can go from there, but at least it might be working.


I have confirmed that there is no shunt incorporated into the meters. I have discovered a circuit with the same colours as mine, but it has a separate load power 0-100V, 0-50.0 Amp. I have emailed the person concerned asking if he can give me a revised version without the load power.

Also I have found shunts that will most likely do I what I want, they come in 10A, 20A, 30A, 50A, & 100A versions. I was thinking either the 20A or 30A. The only problem is they won't arrive from China till about the middle of January. 

Ian


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## Lemonhawk

I would still put a temporary shunt in by using a short wire between the yellow and green leads (where a shunt is installed) that way you can at least see the voltage. The current is sensed by the unit measuring the voltage across the shunt, then essentially scaling by I=V/R do using a wire as a shunt will not result in the correct current reading it may read something. Use the same gauge wire as you used to power the load.


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## ianb26

I'm back again! I'm doing some tweaking on the layout as well as building models for scenery. I have also bought a bargain on ebay. There was a Bachmann Santa Fe Red & Silver F7, road #307 on ebay in Australia for $AU20! Also an extra one for spares, it doesn't have bogies on the front. Both locos have the Bachmann hook coupler on the front, but no coupler on the rear.

Not sure what year they were manufactured, could be pre 2000. On the bottom of both it says Bachmann, China.

I intend to put a decoder in the good one, and I think it looks quite easy compared to a couple of other locos I have done.

Attached are some photos with one detailing the current connections to/from the pickups and headlight. I intend to mount the decoder on the weight - with insulation of course between decoder and weight.

Decoder Red and Black to pickups front and rear.
Decoder Orange & Grey to motor.
Decoder Blue to headlight Red.
Decoder Green to headlight Green.

I stand to be corrected on those. Any comments most appreciated.

Ian 
*PS* I will need to replace couplers. Would Kadee #5 be suitable or is there another Kadee that would best suit the job?
The screw holding the front coupler on is a very fine screw. It looks to be about a 1mm hole in the rear coupling holder. I'm sorry that the photo of the current coupler is not very clear.


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## ianb26

Hi there,

Technically speaking this is not a post for the DCC forum, but as a huge majority of my posts here are DCC, and my layout is DCC, I'm hoping that my question here will be accepted. To the Moderator if it is off topic, I don't mind it being shifted to the relevant forum.

I am attaching a photo of the terminus end of my layout with its 3 platforms - 1 single sided and 1 doubled sided - for clarity.

I want to scratchbuild a platforms overall canopy. At the moment my plan intends it to be the complete distance and width of the main platform and adjusted for the length & width of the shorter island platform. I intend to base it - very loosely - on the Peco LK-20X. Does anyone have any suggestions or photos/drawings of a layout for it. I want to make it a curved roofline with the highest point about 140mm to 150mm from the base. I am anticipating a shallow curve on the roof. Any suggestions would be most helpful. The distance from the base to the top of the signal gantry is 130mm - platform to the top of gantry is 104mm. The overbridge is not a problem, as the top is lower than the top of the signal gantry.

Construction materials will be Evergreen products, and clear acetate or plastic sheets,










Thanks


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## CTValleyRR

The problem with posting it here isn't really whether it will be accepted, or whether you have broken some rule or other, but whether the right people to give you advice will see it and respond. The folks who are good with DCC aren't necessarily the same ones who are good with scratchbuilding structures. And those who are may not even open a thread entitled "Advice Please" in the DCC area. You would probably do better putting that previous post and any responses in a new thread in the Structures section.

Anyway, I'm not sure I'm fully grasping the concept of what you intend to do. It sounds like you want two different canopies, one over each platform, and which would be higher than both the signal pantries and the pedestrian bridge, and would leave the tracks essentially uncovered. Do you really want both of those structures under the canopy? Are you thinking a cantelivered canopy, or an arched one? Glass or solid?

And you're looking for actual plans, not just inspiration (which I think is probably a long shot, but you never know)?


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## ianb26

CTValleyRR said:


> You would probably do better putting that previous post and any responses in a new thread in the Structures section.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure I'm fully grasping the concept of what you intend to do. It sounds like you want two different canopies, one over each platform, and which would be higher than both the signal pantries and the pedestrian bridge, and would leave the tracks essentially uncovered. Do you really want both of those structures under the canopy? Are you thinking a cantelivered canopy, or an arched one? Glass or solid?
> 
> And you're looking for actual plans, not just inspiration (which I think is probably a long shot, but you never know)?


Thanks CTValley,

I will do as you suggest and shift to Structures. I want the canopy to span ALL the tracks. A glass arched one. It will probably end up as 2 structures. A complete structure up to the incoming end of the island platform then a smaller one to cover the tracks and incoming end of the single platform.

Thanks again for your suggestions.


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