# Lionel 616 Flying Yankee (1935?) parts/repair?



## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

I have what I believe (from web searches) is a 1935 Lionel 616 Flying Yankee. The 2 driven wheels are missing (the ones with the gears,) the 2 axles and wheels on the opposite side are still there. I am guessing the wheels can be replaced by themselves if they are available. 

I realize there are lots of parts places listed in the forums, but being so old (the train ... well me too) I thought it might be better to ask to home in on how to proceed.

1. Is this something I can replace myself and if so where is the best place to get those parts? Looks like the part number is 616DW ?

2. If I can't do it myself (not sure why that would be) who would you recommend for repairs?

3. The power supply has many voltages available. Does the train use the variable 11-16v or the 17-22v connection? I'd like to see if the motor works before moving ahead with parts/repairs.

Thanks.

What happened to the wheels? Train last ran in the late 60s when gears on the wheels stripped. They were removed and my father and I went to local hobby stores but we couldn't find the parts and no one was able to help. The wheels never got put away with the train so ... there you go.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Very nice looking unit.

It appears that Lionel is now making a reproduction unit, so Lionel is probably your best source for parts.

Here is their new owners manual. The transformer recommendations chart on page 8 is probably similar to what you need, although your exact transformer may not be listed.

Wheels can be pressed onto their axles with a suitably sized vise. Good luck.

View attachment 616_flying_yankee.pdf


View attachment 616Motor.pdf


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Thanks Bob. 

I have the transformer, but it has 4 binding post and different combinations provided different voltages. I assume the fixed voltages are for the accessories (more questions on those later) and one of the variable ones is for the train. I don't know if it is the 11-16v or the 17-22v. I would guess the higher voltage range, but I not willing to act on that guess and burn something up.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The transformer chart in the manual shows recommended operating voltages for that motor. You could just start with the 11-16 v and see how that worked.

I found this source for your wheels. Not cheap!

It does have some information regarding part nos. and changes.

Lionel 752M-51-52 Wheel Set (2) Gear (2) Plain


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The problem of finding wheels is they are only sold as a complete 4 wheel set, and not offered as single wheels. This brings the price up, as seen by Rkenney has shown. The chance of finding a suitable donor through auction sites, is slim to none, and time consuming. I have a similar situation with 1688 wheel sets. I would need to buy a set of 4 to just replace a single damaged wheel. The frustrations of restoring these old relics!!!!


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Here's a much more reasonably priced wheel set at Hennings.

http://henningstrains.lightspeedwebstore.com/752m-51-52-wheel-set-for-lionel-o-streamliners-4pcs/dp/755

Remember these wheels are for 1937 up. Your 1935 wheels are not available. The difference appears to be something with the axles, so you will have to modify as shown in the original link. Here's what they say:

"The 752M-51 plain wheels and 752M-52 gear wheels are used on the prewar motors for the 616 Flying Yankee, 636 City of Denver and the 752 City of Portland Streamliners. It should be noted that Lionel used two different wheel sets for these motor. Motor manufactured before 1937 used the 752M-12 plain wheel and the 752M-28 geared wheel. Motors manufactured in 1937 and thereafter used the 752M-51 plain wheel and the 752M-52 geared wheel as shown above. The difference between the two wheel sets is at the inner axle hub. The hub on the early wheels is extended outward approximately .030 as the axle bearing had a flat face. Later motors used an axle bearing that had s shoulder, therefore the later wheels do not have this extended hub. To use the later wheels on an early motor, you need to either (1) change the axle bearings or (2) add a brass spacer between the hub of the wheel and the wheel bearing."


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Thanks for the help. Can anyone (or how would I) verify that mine is a 1935? That was just my best guess from comparing pictures.

I need to find out how much this is even worth before spending money on it. Would having replacement wheels (non-original) decrease the value of the train much?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I have the majority of the books and catalogs for Prewar Lionel, and to date your Flying Yankee, if it is Black and chrome, it would be 1935 issue. From 1936-1941, the color changed to Dark Gunmetal Gray, for that entire run. The value in Good condition (2001 guide book) is listed as $225, with Excellent condition up to $750. If the photo above is yours, it appears to be in the Very Good to Excellent range, with what I can see of the chrome finish. The 616; 636; & the 752 wheels look quite alike, from the photos I have seen. But as stated in an earlier post, to get the wheels you would need, you have to buy the complete set of 4. Any seller who does carry the correct wheels, will only sell them as a set,which bumps the price of the set up.

It might be worth your while to look for a "junker" on eBay that has a complete motor, that may need some minor repair, but has a bad body. I would restore what you have. Good luck in your decision.:smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos:


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Thanks teledoc. That is a picture of mine, plus I have the other cars that are in good shape also. The worst problem (besides the wheels) is the scratches on the black top that can be seen in the photos.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

rwkeating said:


> Thanks for the help. Can anyone (or how would I) verify that mine is a 1935? That was just my best guess from comparing pictures.
> 
> I need to find out how much this is even worth before spending money on it. Would having replacement wheels (non-original) decrease the value of the train much?


Hard to imagine its worth much of anything with missing parts and non operational. It's value now is simply for parts!

It's worth more if you fix it. It will never be 'all original.'


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Great news. I cleaned the brushes with electrical contact cleaner and lubricate a few friction points and the engine works! The forward/reverse switching works too. Next step, order the wheels from Hennings Trains and try the local hardware store for some brass washers to act as spacers.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That's great that you got it running. Your question about the scratches in the paint, means you need to make a decision. Do you want to keep it with the scratches, as the original character of all the years it survived, OR do you want to restore it????

You can possibly do a slight sanding to feather the edges of the scratches so they are smooth, and repainted with a gloss black. You can also strip all,the paint and repainted it. That is your decision. Good luck with what you chose to do. Restoring and reviving these old trains is a lot of fun, and gives you gratification of keeping it running after 60+ years.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

teledoc, I need to sell it and just want to get it working prior to that. I really value old things and the "guardians" of those things. Since I don't know anything about model trains, I hope to be able to sell it to someone that can make the best decisions for it, enjoy it and preserve it for future generations.


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

It works! I had to wait for parts. I ended un also needing an axle, so I replaced 3 wheels and an axle. Next to clean up the track (at least for electrical reasons,) set up the full set and take a video.

I wish I knew what voltages the train and additional things take. The power supply has these voltage; 6, 12, 5-10, 11-16 and 17-22. I ran the train on 5-10 to be safe, but I think it would be happier getting moving with more. I'll see if cleaning the track helps.

Thanks to all for your help. I'll probably be asking for more when it comes time to sell


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Congratulations on getting it fixed, and running again. The voltage it would most likely work best at would be the 11-16 volt range of the transformer. I wouldn't try the 17-22 range unless you had a longer consist of cars behind the engine. 

Go to eBay, and type in 616 Flying Yankee, to see what others are selling their's for, and look at the upper right of the page, where you will see "ADVANCED" search term. Click on that, and look for the "SOLD" option, and you can see what others have actually SOLD for to give you a ballpark figure of what to ask, when you decide to sell it. You can also Google a few Auction Houses such as Stout Auctions, and do the same thing with getting a ballpark figure of sold items of the 616. Condition is actually the Key for price. If you have the time, you may want to sand and repaint the black painted sections, for appearance. Good Luck!!!


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Here is a video of the train in action.






In the center of the track is the rest of the "stuff" I have. Not obvious how or if that stuff works. 

There are a total of 5 lights on the train. The first 2 work. The other bulbs are good, but the pickup piece that runs between the wheels is missing. If I would have realized that at the time I would have got them with the other parts. I am just going to sell it as is.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Nice video, so glad you fixed it!:thumbsup:


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Here is the link to the eBay sale. I have a new video showing all the lights working now. I also have a link to a shared directory that shows more pictures than ebay allows. Thanks for everyones help! http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Lionel-616-Flying-Yankee-O-Gauge-Train-Set-4-cars/252788778637


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

I bought a 616 Flying Yankee as well, at the First Frost train meet, and I'm not sure how to fix it. I needed wheels for it so I bought a set of four but I guess they're for the other model because they can easily slip on and off the axle. The version I have is the one with a black roof on the cab and silver paint. The motor also doesn't seem to be working but I'm not sure what's wrong with it. I cleaned the commutator and brushes with alcohol, tried powering on the transformer and touching the wires to the pickup and axles but nothing happened. I tried touching the wires to the brush tubes directly as well but the motor still didn't move. The light socket wire is disconnected, there's a wire coming out of the "block" that holds the motor and the light socket is attached to some kind of contact but there's no second wire connecting to the light.


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

Bellow are links for where I got the axles and wheels. The third link describes using a spacer with the wheels. Mine were very tight and could only be pressed on. They aren't going anywhere except around and around  

Axles
http://store.justtrains.com/Lionel-Prewar-SL-77-O-Gauge-Locomotive-Axles-Pair_p_2132.html

Wheels
http://henningstrains.lightspeedweb...eel-set-for-lionel-o-streamliners-4pcs/dp/755

Wheel spacer explanation at bottom of this page: 
http://store.justtrains.com/752M-51-52-Wheel-Set-2-Gear-2-Plain_p_1790.html

Does your train have the "E-Unit"? If so, check the position of that switch. If turned too far, the switch on mine would short out the motor. Check for continuity between the motor pickups and ground. There should NOT be any! If there is, move the E-Unit lever and see if that makes it go away. If that isn't the problem, check any wires that may have shorted to ground where they are next to metal. Mine didn't have that problem but those wires are old so it is worth checking.

I don't have it apart now, but I don't think the light had 2 wires. It just has one hot wire and then ground is made through the light socket and metal pivot bar.

Make sure the wheels/axles are lubricated well. If they aren't the motor wont have enough torque to turn them. I have a manual here that shows the lubrication points. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B8KSOGP4U2yDOV9ZeG1Cb1A2X0E

Good luck.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

rwkeating said:


> Bellow are links for where I got the axles and wheels. The third link describes using a spacer with the wheels. Mine were very tight and could only be pressed on. They aren't going anywhere except around and around
> 
> Axles
> http://store.justtrains.com/Lionel-Prewar-SL-77-O-Gauge-Locomotive-Axles-Pair_p_2132.html
> ...


It has an E-unit, but I'm not sure which positions are which. It can rotate all the way around, its rotations aren't limited and it doesn't have "positions". The light is socket is still on the metal piece and pivot bar but the hot wire is disconnected from the socket, I'll try to post pictures. Is there any way to tell which model wheels and which model axles I have? The axles I'm using are ones that came with the train but the wheels I'm trying to put on I bought since the old ones were crumbling and one was missing, the old ones seemed to easily come on and off and spin around the axle too. For some reason there were pieces of solder on the ends of the axles that I had to remove to take out the axles and old wheels, probably to stop the wheels from sliding off.


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## rwkeating (Jan 16, 2017)

You just have to look at the E-unit lever to see where it "should" be. For example, it is obvious when it contacts metal.

Is your train exactly like mine (just the top of the engine is black?) If so, then the links I posted point to the correct wheels and axles. If in doubt, you can also call those places, tell them what you have and they can look up the parts for you.


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