# Ceiling layout



## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Greetings! First post here. I had an extensive N scale layout years ago but am looking to do an HO on a shelf around my son's room near the ceiling. I'd really love 2 (or more) trains moving in opposite directions. It's a good sized room so each run could be 50' or more. I know this could get expensive and am wondering if there's a good set to start out with. I had a Bachman N scale engine that was total junk so I'm hesitant to buy anything from them. There's a Walther's trainline set that is DCC equipped that looks decent. Anyone have experience with this set? Any others you'd reccommend? Will the power supply be enough for so much track? The room is about 12x14. What is the quality of the brands in order of best to worst? I don't want to go broke but don't want to buy junk either.
Thanks!!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'll leave the train set recommendations to others since
I'm all Bachmann. Seven DCC locomotives and the only
problems have been where I'm to blame.

Your question, would the starter DCC controller be sufficient
for the length of your Tracks. Yes, but you will want to
run a good gauge buss with a couple drops to it on each
wall. Were you thinking a double track layout with two
trains? If so you'd need to have the drops from both sets
of rails.

Don


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

How high up are you talking about? HO can be difficult to see close to the ceiling.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Maximum height will be 7' to get over the doorway and I'll slope it down as low as I can before it has to climb up again. I want the loops to interconnect so the trains can change lines(hence my interest in DCC), and at the lowest point I'll widen it out for a siding and whatever scenery I can fit. 
Question on the bus for power: won't the power decay through the wire as much as it does through the rails? I ask because the farthest run of wire would be about 30' away from the transformer...
As for Bachmann, perhaps I gave them a bad rap. The engine in question was from a set and just never ran smoothly. I bought a separate Atlas engine which ran awesome even at very low speeds. Do your Bachmanns run well at low speed? Should I just avoid the engines in sets in general? I'm just trying to save money with a set, but if they come with toy grade engines maybe it's not worth it....


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Bachmann Spectrum stuff is good quality. Buss with feeders is the way to go. You can also use a DCC power booster if needed. Power decays in the rail side of things quicker because of the connector, dust, dirt, etc.

Toy grade stuff is not worth the hassle.

Since you will be bringing the track down from the door, it should be fine. Now you get to calculate the grade.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Yeah, the grade will be fun! I've read that 2-3% is maximum from a scale standpoint, but what's the actual maximum the average engine will handle? I don't mind if it looks a little out of scale if it gets me down to a more viewable height...


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Any other opinions out there on the Walther's DCC set? Modeltrainstuff has it for $170 which seems like a good deal if it can handle what I'm trying to do. The DCC starter sets alone can cost more than that and of course don't come with tracks and cars...


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Demus,
I've only been in the hobby for 3 years, but have built a sizable 10'X10' layout with four separate DC circuits. (loops)
All of my locos are Bachmann Spectrums and they've performed flawlessly with little or no maintenance.
One of my loops is a figure-8 with around 20 total feet of track and only one DC drop.
Two of the loops are ovals (one within the other) and each has only one DC drop.
The fourth loop is 33 total feet with four drops. I'm running dual locos on this loop.
I have NO hesitation on any of the loops from any of the locos.
All of my power comes from MRC Tech 4 units. They are smooth as silk.
All of my buss lines from the transformers are #14 wire.
Hope this helps,
Bob


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Thanks Bob, it does help. Did you happen to see the set from Walther's I was looking at buying? Do you think the DCC unit will work well?
http://cdn3.volusion.com/ztna9.tft5b/v/vspfiles/photos/931-890-2.jpg?1373869292


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## spoil9 (Dec 24, 2008)

Personally I would skip the set and pick up what I need piece by piece. Sets are compromises between quality and price, in my opinion.

Keep the grade at 2% max to ensure all future engines can handle it as well.

Voltage will drop a lot less through wire than it will through rail.
Go to a local hobby shop (lhs) and look at the DCC controllers. Each is designed a little different and may or may not feel "right" in your hands. You need to be comfortable with the controller as much as it needs to be able to perform. Example, Im going NEC because i can use it one handed and Im able to eadily adjust speed and options with just the one hand.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

No, can't say that I'm familiar with that set. I'm also not qualified to discuss DCC. My layout is old school DC all the way and more than likely will stay that way since I'm really not into switching, crossovers, and all that other cool stuff. My boring layout just has trains going 'round and 'round and 'round until you get dizzy watching them! 
Our resident DCC expert, far and away, is NIMT. He has probably forgotten more about DCC than most guys will ever know. 
While I do enjoy running my trains, my primary "kick" in this hobby is creating scenery and other cool "real life" scenarios. My layout is a jam-packed smorgasboard of mini-scenes and cities from my personal past and present life.
Keep us posted on your progress and good luck,
Bob


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

spoil9 said:


> Personally I would skip the set and pick up what I need piece by piece. Sets are compromises between quality and price, in my opinion.
> 
> Keep the grade at 2% max to ensure all future engines can handle it as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. But at $170 I was thinking the Walther's kit might be of decent quality. How much did you pay for your NEC controller?


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## 93firebird (Dec 25, 2011)

Imho 170 is a starting price for decent quality dcc locomotive by it self.

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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

93firebird said:


> Imho 170 is a starting price for decent quality dcc locomotive by it self.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


So a $80 engine is junk? What's a $170 engine do that an $80 one can't?


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## 93firebird (Dec 25, 2011)

Durability, quality of the gearing which affects smoothness of operation, unwanted noises from said gearing...need I say more?

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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

93firebird said:


> Durability, quality of the gearing which affects smoothness of operation, unwanted noises from said gearing...need I say more?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


Please do. I'm new to this and would really like to know the best and worst manufacturers. And NOT just the most expensive. I know from other pursuits that the most expensive isn't always the best. I'm sure someone makes a solid, "good bang for your buck" brand that offers good performance at a fair price. Who comes to mind along those lines?


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## 93firebird (Dec 25, 2011)

Bachman spectrums are nice. Proto 2000, atlas

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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Even the less expensive Atlas?


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## 93firebird (Dec 25, 2011)

Not sure on the low end. I'm just trying to stear you away from entry level which is not going to last very long.

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## spoil9 (Dec 24, 2008)

I havent picked up my DCC kit yet. Still in planning stages.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

spoil9 said:


> I havent picked up my DCC kit yet. Still in planning stages.


Which ones are you considering?


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I have a Digitrax set up and an NCE Power cab. I prefer the Digitrax, but the NCE is good for my portable set up. I bought the NCE for $170 including shipping on Fee Pay.


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## spoil9 (Dec 24, 2008)

To be honest, I dont remmber which ones I was looking at. I know I wanted to have 1 handed operations, and be able to run 4-5 trains at once with out paying a lot of money. Also wanted options and acc to expand in the future if i so chose to do so.
I thought that NCE Power Cab fit my requirements best when I went to Train Fest in Milwaukee this year and was able to see/ handle a bunch of different controllers and talk to the reps from the companies. But thats my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree. When I finally do get to builing my layout I'll go to NIMT and order my kit though.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

Going through NIMT is an excellent choice, IMHO. 

You do need to find the DCC choice that fits you best. You will need more throttles to run more trains and have power boosters. The Digitrax 400 series can run two trains per throttle as can the NCE.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

What's NIMT?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

spoil9 said:


> Example, Im going NEC because i can use it one handed and Im able to eadily adjust speed and options with just the one hand.


I can control 100 engines with my set up all with a 3 fingers... A computer mouse. :cheeky4:

Demus, NIMT is me and it is also North Idaho Model Trains! 
I personal would recommend the Walthers set, here is why.

#1 It has a fully expandable DCC Controller that is made by Digitrax (one of the 2 tops), that get you right in the big DCC game (not like a Bachmann EZ DCC, very limited expandability and no control) and also allows you to add any feature that Digitrax has to offer, more power, handheld and wireless throttles, turnout control, computer control, really unlimited expandability. 

#2 It will get you in a starter loco and a few cars but it's also expandable. :smilie_daumenpos:

#3 On the bad side the track that it comes with this is junk, steel track isn't any good, period, use nickel silver track or nothing. :smilie_daumenneg:


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Awesome, thanks. And it comes w a decent engine? Walthers is good quality?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

It's on the cheaper side but they run well.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Cool I got it today and it seems to run well on the provided EZ track. I imagine it will run better on 36" sections of nickel silver that I'll use for the permanent installation. 
Questions:
-the power pack seems awfully small; I think 1800 maH output. Can this power two locos around the entire room?
-if not can more than one be used or do I just have to replace it with a bigger power pack?
-the sound comes from speakers in the DCC controller; can this be used for on board speakers as well? Will my DCC controller be able to activate the on board sounds?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Demus said:


> Cool I got it today and it seems to run well on the provided EZ track. I imagine it will run better on 36" sections of nickel silver that I'll use for the permanent installation.
> Questions:
> -the power pack seems awfully small; I think 1800 maH output. Can this power two locos around the entire room?
> -if not can more than one be used or do I just have to replace it with a bigger power pack?
> -the sound comes from speakers in the DCC controller; can this be used for on board speakers as well? Will my DCC controller be able to activate the on board sounds?


You will need to add a DCC Sound decoder and speaker to the engine to get sound out of the engine, you just can't add a speaker.
You will have to add a booster to the DCC system, not just change the power pack. 
You probably won't be able to power the engine around an entire room and especially if you run 2 engines, also if you do a DCC Sound decoded engine it will require even more power than a standard DCC decoder.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm pretty new to this. When you say I'll need a booster to get all the way around the room, do you mean another power pack? Do you just wire them in parallel with each other?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

DCC does not use "power packs (power packs power the rails directly from the pack and provide a variable voltage)" that a DC term. Edit: The geniuses at Digitrax call the supply for your DCC unit a "Power pack", but it's not because it not variable, can Be very confusing!
DCC uses a Power Supply that powers the DCC command station and booster stations.
And no Increasing the Power Supply will not up the available power to the rails, the Command station limits that factor, the more money you spend on the command station or boosters the larger the amperage available on the rails. 
The DCC command unit not only passes power to the rails it also encodes a DCC signal on the rails to talk to the decoder.
Boosters are units that power the rails and passes on the DCC signal.
You set blocks or sections for each Command station or booster to power, but they are isolated from each other.
On the back of your DCC command station is a Port that looks like a Phone (4 contacts) or ether net jack (8 contacts) it's actually called a Loco net port (6 contacts), and that will tie into another booster or throttle or ... the list goes on, that's what makes your DCC command station expandable.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Scroll threw these pages and it might help in some answers.

http://www.digitrax.com/products/command-stations-boosters/wtl12/


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

Ok. I think I'm getting there. So if my command station doesn't have the power to get around 50' of track, I need a booster station. Does this have to be another command station or simply a boost of the power? Can I just run jumpers at say 10' intervals and get away with the one command station?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

A booster is just like a command station it just doesn't make the original DCC commands, it just passes them along.
Note: A Booster will also need it's own power supply to supply it power to work.

With DCC the standard is #14 bus wires all around the layout and drops feeding the rails every 3 feet or less, so no 10 feet is too long! Proper bus lines and drops will help lessen the loss of power from the command station but will not eliminate power loss or drain.


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## Demus (Jan 27, 2014)

So if I do #14 bus lines and drops every 3' (using 3' flex track so perfect) can I get by with just the one command station? I'll only be running 2 locos...


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