# Metal wheels



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Everyone says to replace the plastic wheels with metal wheels and I would like to do that, but went I went to various sites I am confronted with all kinds and I think, sizes of metal wheels, where is the best place to buy metal wheels that are more to less universal and in quantity?


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> Everyone says to replace the plastic wheels with metal wheels and I would like to do that, but went I went to various sites I am confronted with all kinds and I think, sizes of metal wheels, where is the best place to buy metal wheels that are more to less universal and in quantity?


Two brands come to mind that I use - Kadee and Intermountain. Don't think you can go wrong with either. And two common sizes - 33" and 36". Both brands are very good. "Generally speaking" (always exceptions) 33" is for freight cars and 36" for most passenger. In practice it doesn't always come out that way, and there are always different proponents/critics of each. 
For example there are many modern freight cars that use 36" wheels, and 33" wheels may work better in certain applications of passenger cars. 
So take this info as a very general guide and go from there. With experience you'll get a feel for all the different applications.
Also - if you are replacing plastic wheelsets and retaining the trucks, a tiny tool worth it's weight in gold is a "truck tuner". it basically 'reams' the truck journals to a proper angle so the metal wheels will spin freely - sometimes they will not, because they are not always an exact match. 
But you'll get more info/opinions on this question for sure!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Wait, when did MicroMark get the truck tuners in again? What happened to that whole "email me when this item is back in stock"? And holy crap did they raise the price!

In addition to wheel diameter, there's also the width to consider. Code 88 wheels are more true to prototype, but you're only talking about a difference of 0.022". A casual observer would never notice this, but you can see the difference if you're doing close-up photography.

I've been using the kadee wheels because they carry the ribbed-back in black. What I like about the black wheels is that you can do a quick rust job on the sides, then use a wire wheel in a dremmel to clean up the running surface.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

BKubiak

As mentioned, generally an HO freight car will have 33" wheels, and
passenger cars 36".

The heavier, longer and larger freight cars, such as high cube, auto haulers, 
intermodal cars and the like, usually showing a wt of 80,000 # or more, will use 36". However, if you plan to replace wheels and are uncertain which
to order, compare each set with a set from
an older smaller freight car. If the wheels are larger, they'll likely
be 36".

The reason you want to be concerned is that the wrong size wheel
will affect the vertical alignment of couplers, and if larger than
the truck was designed for, possibly drag against the truck or car body.

You also have a choice, smooth back or ribbed. Ribbed if there
is no car lighting, smooth back if the car has power pickup wipers that rub on
the wheel backs.

I have used both Kadee and Intermountain. Both are excellent.

Trucks can warp somewhat, at times, squeezing the axle points.
There is a 'truck tuner' that can be use to deepen and clean out
the axle pits in the trucks to ensure that the wheels turn freely.
I've used the point of a hobby knife to do the same thing.

Don


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

This is all great info, I wish the suppliers would explain what all the differences are rather then just the item and the ptice


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## SBRacing (Mar 11, 2015)

RonR is correct, because I have a five piece Atheran Intermodel set that the end cars had different size wheels than the center cars and I didnt know till I boght metal wheels and plced them on. 

Does and one know who makes a good insulating wheel?


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

SBRacing said:


> Does and one know who makes a good insulating wheel?


I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean one of the wheels is insulated from the axle to prevent short circuits? If so, all metal wheelsets are insulated on one wheel. Just look closely at the back of the wheelset and you will see a black circle on one side that insulates the wheel from the axle.


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## SBRacing (Mar 11, 2015)

correct, so I can attaché lights in my passenger cars


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

SBRacing said:


> correct, so I can attaché lights in my passenger cars


Speaking of lights in passenger cars, do the light kits come with whatever you need to pick up power from the track to light the lights


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i have never actually 'bought' a light kit, just made them up from strips of phosphor bronze onto the back of intermountain metal wheels, glued to the bottom of the truck, fairly easy .. and placed a small bridge rectifier and capacitor inside whatever I'm lighting ... with dcc, for dc operation an added 7805 voltage regulator works well so that lights come on as it starts moving ... for the few kadee ribbed back wheelsets that I have I used wipers on the axle, just have to remember to alternate the insulated side .. by the way, i use leds, for incandescent the bridge or cap isn't really needed, but leds look and work better for me


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Some light kits come with the truck parts and some don't. You have to dig into what is included.

Not all insulated wheels actually are. The best metal wheels today are Intermountain, IMO. But I have had several where they would short the track. 

To use metal wheels is the real question. Older metal wheels had weight that was in a very good location, low on the car. Clearly that was good. The wheel surfaces were true to the axle and rolled well. Today, metal wheel sets are a composite. The outside is metal, but it is not entirely metal the result is that today's metal wheels weigh about the same as BB metal axle plastic wheel sets. 

If there is no current transfer from rail to wheel, then the impact on rail crude is the same.
They both will pick up you dirt about the same. A replacement set of metal wheels start around $3.50 per car, pretty pricy for marginal benefit.

For lighted or sound cars they are required, make sure they are the same metal as your track.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Wait, when did MicroMark get the truck tuners in again? What happened to that whole "email me when this item is back in stock"? And holy crap did they raise the price!


MicroMark is a retailer, not a manufacturer. Whoever makes it (Rix?) probably jacked the price up on them. I paid $5-ish for mine, a long time ago. For it's ability to smooth out crummy trucks, though, it's priceless.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

DonR said:


> BKubiak
> 
> As mentioned, generally an HO freight car will have 33" wheels, and
> passenger cars 36".
> ...


I looked around on Ebay and found a seller offering 12 pair of NIB Kadee metal wheels #520 33 inch diameter freight car wheels for 7.99 plus 2.95 shipping and any additional items were shipped free so I bought some other stuff too and at very reasonable prices.
Wadda they mean by nonmagnetic?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Bkubiak said:


> Wadda they mean by nonmagnetic?


Some of the older metal wheels were made of steel. When you have decoupling magnets in your track, the steel wheels would cause problems, and a strong electromagnet could potentially even pull a lightweight car off the track. The newer metals are non-magnetic to eliminate any interference.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Some of the older metal wheels were made of steel. When you have decoupling magnets in your track, the steel wheels would cause problems, and a strong electromagnet could potentially even pull a lightweight car off the track. The newer metals are non-magnetic to eliminate any interference.


Ahh, I see, I see, I see, said the blind man


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

Have always preferred steel axles vs plastic because too much chance w/ bending the axles when putting them in the trucks. If the axles are bent you may get car wobbling. Problem w/ Kadees is the black paint on the treads wears off and left all over the roadbed. Reboxx also makes a truck truer. Either one will greatly improve rolling!
FYI the old oil/grease journal trucks usually ended up black all over, but roller bearing trucks are usually a rusty color because they don't leak oil.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

ggnlars said:


> .........To use metal wheels is the real question. Older metal wheels had weight that was in a very good location, low on the car. Clearly that was good. The wheel surfaces were true to the axle and rolled well. Today, metal wheel sets are a composite. The outside is metal, but it is not entirely metal the result is that today's metal wheels weigh about the same as BB metal axle plastic wheel sets.
> 
> If there is no current transfer from rail to wheel, then the impact on rail crude is the same.
> They both will pick up you dirt about the same. A replacement set of metal wheels start around $3.50 per car, pretty pricy for marginal benefit.
> ...


I used to be obsessive that everything on my railroad had to have metal wheels. I've kind of backed off from that over time. The question is - does it roll fine with the plastic? if so, then I ask myself why I am spending money when I don't have to. On the other hand, I like the sound the wheels make, and it looks/feels more realistic. 

Larry, you mentioned that today's metal wheels are composite? Could you elaborate on that? If not entirely metal, what are the other components in the mix? Sounds interesting.

And why is it important to use the same metal for the wheels as the track?


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

JNXT 7707 said:


> I used to be obsessive that everything on my railroad had to have metal wheels. I've kind of backed off from that over time. The question is - does it roll fine with the plastic? if so, then I ask myself why I am spending money when I don't have to. On the other hand, I like the sound the wheels make, and it looks/feels more realistic.
> 
> Larry, you mentioned that today's metal wheels are composite? Could you elaborate on that? If not entirely metal, what are the other components in the mix? Sounds interesting.
> 
> And why is it important to use the same metal for the wheels as the track?


Is he saying
brass track use brass wheels and nickel silver track use nickel silver wheels
HMMMM
I have a lighted caboose that lights on either track and I have two layouts one in brass and one in nickel silver, it flickers no matter which one it is one


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> Is he saying
> brass track use brass wheels and nickel silver track use nickel silver wheels
> HMMMM
> I have a lighted caboose that lights on either track and I have two layouts one in brass and one in nickel silver, it flickers no matter which one it is one


Yes it sounds like it. 
I have some Tyco/Mantua lighted passenger cars with brass wheels that work fine on my NS track.
AFAIK there are brass wipers moving over NS wheels in some of my locos.
So I am interested to learn the rationale.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

I knew a fellow modeler in Indiana who had a long train with Kadee wheel sets and it was hard to pull them. Kadee wheel sets have plastic/nylon axles. He changed them out with metal axle wheelsets and found there was far less drag on the train. I've heard many others also find Kadee's falling out of favor with them too, perhaps for the same reason.

These days Inermountain, ExactRail, Rebox are the top sellers. Proto 2000 wheel sets are now sold by Walthers who have changed the manufacturer so I don't think you can find the same old Proto 2000 wheel sets for sale anymore - unless a storehas some in stock.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

riogrande said:


> These days Inermountain, ExactRail, Rebox are the top sellers. Proto 2000 wheel sets are now sold by Walthers who have changed the manufacturer so I don't think you can find the same old Proto 2000 wheel sets for sale anymore - unless a storehas some in stock.


So are you saying the new Proto2000 wheelsets are no good? I have about a dozen of the older ones in the parts drawer, and probably would have reordered from Walthers when I ran out.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

riogrande said:


> I knew a fellow modeler in Indiana who had a long train with Kadee wheel sets and it was hard to pull them. Kadee wheel sets have plastic/nylon axles. He changed them out with metal axle wheelsets and found there was far less drag on the train. I've heard many others also find Kadee's falling out of favor with them too, perhaps for the same reason.
> 
> These days Inermountain, ExactRail, Rebox are the top sellers. Proto 2000 wheel sets are now sold by Walthers who have changed the manufacturer so I don't think you can find the same old Proto 2000 wheel sets for sale anymore - unless a storehas some in stock.


DO I understand you correctly, are you saying that the wheel sets I just bought that are Kadee metal wheels do not also have metal axles.?? I will find out for sure next week when they get here.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

Bkubiak said:


> DO I understand you correctly, are you saying that the wheel sets I just bought that are Kadee metal wheels do not also have metal axles.?? I will find out for sure next week when they get here.


Yes Kadee wheelsets have plastic axles. Besides that the black paint on the wheel treads 
wears off all over the roadbed. But why paint them black since wheel treads are supposed to be shiny!


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

From what I'm reading, the Proto 2000 wheel sets we used to get from Life Like won't be available anymore. Walthers will be having them made by another company so Proto 2000 wheel sets will be different that the old ones. I have a a few of the Life Like Proto 2000 wheel sets and they seemed ok, but it doesn't seem like I'll be able to get any more from what I'm reading. I'll use the few I have but like I said, it doesn't look like I'll I'll be able to get anymore. Walthers will offer Proto 2000 wheelsets in the futture but they will be of a different design - and assuredly more expensive.

As for Kadee, I have a few but based on my friends results, I don't think I"ll get any more. They seemed to not roll as freely as those with metal axles.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

at one time many trucks had metal side frames, and the kadee wheels with plastic axles did reduce rolling resistance ... now most truck side plates are plastic or on some cases delrin, the tichy arch bar trucks i use have little nylon ? inserts, and metal axles work better inside plastic ... the kadee wheels themselves are chemically colored zinc castings, and are slightly porous if you look with a magnifying glass .. not the best for electrical pickup, but you can use wipers on the rear face of the flat back wheels


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I love Proto 2000 metal wheels. I have stocked up over the years, and have enough to change out any cars I get for the next 2 years. You can't get them anymore (the ones on the light blue cards), but I have a secret supplier if I need more.....

Now, I have seen the new Walthers Proto wheels (with trucks), and they were $14.99 a pair CDN.......haven't seen the wheel sets separately yet, but I imagine they will be $14.99 a dozen......


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

riogrande said:


> From what I'm reading, the Proto 2000 wheel sets we used to get from Life Like won't be available anymore. Walthers will be having them made by another company so Proto 2000 wheel sets will be different that the old ones. I have a a few of the Life Like Proto 2000 wheel sets and they seemed ok, but it doesn't seem like I'll be able to get any more from what I'm reading. I'll use the few I have but like I said, it doesn't look like I'll I'll be able to get anymore. Walthers will offer Proto 2000 wheelsets in the futture but they will be of a different design - and assuredly more expensive.
> 
> As for Kadee, I have a few but based on my friends results, I don't think I"ll get any more. They seemed to not roll as freely as those with metal axles.


Walthers has changed manufacturers on everything that used to be "LifeLike" brand, including all the Proto2000 (now Walthers Proto) and Proto1000 (now Walthers Mainline). That doesn't necessarily mean the quality is worse. I think I'll gamble on some new ones and see for myself.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

It seems that the wheels that have come on the new Walthers Proto cars I have recently acquired are just as good as the Proto 2000 version...if, in fact, the wheels on the new cars are the new Walther proto versions....they look the same....


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> Walthers has changed manufacturers on everything that used to be "LifeLike" brand, including all the Proto2000 (now Walthers Proto) and Proto1000 (now Walthers Mainline). That doesn't necessarily mean the quality is worse. I think I'll gamble on some new ones and see for myself.


The quality is most likely better on all of the products. However, the price will be substantially higher too, and there is the rub. If there was anything nice about the old Life Like Proto 2000 wheel sets is that they were a little easier on the wallet than the other brands. Probably not so now.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Absent technology changes, prices tend to rise over time. This is a fact of life in a free market economy. The US Economy is expected to experience inflation of 1-3% per year; at 2%, the average price increase will be 22% in 10 years.


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## Mr. SP (Jan 7, 2015)

*Wheels*

Most of my rolling stock has Kadee trucks that are correct for the car. A archbar truck wouldn't go under a modern boxcar. Some cabooses have Kadee wheelsets in them since Kadee doesn't make caboose trucks.
My Athearn passenger cars have Kadee 36 inch smooth back wheel sets. I've also used Walthers Proto wheelsets and they work good too.
Metal wheels are for the most part turned instead of cast so are actually round.
Plastic wheels in addition to not being truly round attract crud that builds up on the tread of the wheel which can lead to derailment problems.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> Absent technology changes, prices tend to rise over time. This is a fact of life in a free market economy. The US Economy is expected to experience inflation of 1-3% per year; at 2%, the average price increase will be 22% in 10 years.


In general that's true and goes without saying. The reason I was drawn to the Life Like Proto 2000 wheel sets is that they were a couple dollars cheaper than the competitors at the time they were available to me, so naturally if they were decent quality I like the fact that they were a little cheaper.

Walthers prices OTOH, tend to be, on the average higher than the competitors I've noticed. Now that Walthers has taken over Proto 2000, the price advantage may have evaporated so there are many brands of wheelsets which are just as good or perhaps better. Any of which are probably fine.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> The US Economy is expected to experience inflation of 1-3% per year; at 2%, the average price increase will be 22% in 10 years


That's IF (and that's a big word) the market doesn't correct itself, and there's a big one comin'......later this year!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> That's IF (and that's a big word) the market doesn't correct itself, and there's a big one comin'......later this year!


That "correction" actually refers to the financial markets, where growth has greatly outpaced growth in the broader economy. These often do not affect prices of retail goods, only of stocks, bonds, and things tied to them. But yeah, there's a big one brewing.


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## ggnlars (Aug 6, 2013)

Sorry I've been away from the site for several days. While I'm not sure exactly what is going on with the metal wheels, I can and do measure a weight difference. I believe they are Using a NS or brass out side ring with a less dense matrial inside. It still conducts electricity, but it just doesn't weight as much. 

The better metal wheels also have metal axles. As I remember P2K and Kadee axles are a plastic type material. In some applicati0ns it is hard to install them because the axles deform and can not be straightened. 

Most of the "dirty" track issues have to do with the electrlysis process that occures when current is pass through connecting materials of different alloys of metal. This process leaves a black deposit on both surfaces, in this case the rail and the wheel. This does not occure when no current is passing. So for lighted or sound cars that are picking up electrical power through the wheels the wheel material should be the same as your track. The same is true for engines. Most recent metal wheels are a brass alloy. The track is NS. Athearn for instance is plating their wheels with a layer of NS material. 

Of course, another approach to deal with this "dirty" track issue is to us a very light coating of graphite on the track. 2B is the right hardness. A lot of people have demonstrated that it really works. Be careful, because a very thin layer is all you need. The word is if you can see it you have too much. 
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation Larry. 

I'm going to have to look further into the graphite treatment you wrote about, I have not heard that before.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

My #520 code 110 Metal wheels from Kadee arrived today. I chose an Athern box car with metal axles and plastic wheels to swap with. First I spun the old wheels and they gave about three of four turns and stopped and the axles had some rust on them, I noticed that the wheels did not seem to be perfectly round
I installed the kadee wheels, same test, WOW they spun and spun about 9 or 10 turns before they stopped and there was no axle wobble and they looked to be perfectly round.

I was eyeballing them closely with my Mark III 10x jewelers loupe

The instruction said something about giving it a puff of some lube they have and to NEVER use oil on the wheels??????


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> The instruction said something about giving it a puff of some lube they have and to NEVER use oil on the wheels??????


Correct - use Kadee "Grease 'em" or a powdered lube by Labelle. I wouldn't use oil on them. Don't know if it could actually hurt them or not, but it would attract crud.
Normally if the wheels are spinning freely I don't use any lubricant at all.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JNXT 7707 said:


> Correct - use Kadee "Grease 'em" or a powdered lube by Labelle. I wouldn't use oil on them. Don't know if it could actually hurt them or not, but it would attract crud.
> Normally if the wheels are spinning freely I don't use any lubricant at all.


Woodland Scenics distributes powdered graphite / molybdenum lubricants under their PineCar brand. Available at most hobby shops.


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