# Yet another benchwork thread



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Ok, I see that the opinions are all over the board on bench work. And there is way too much to sort thru to form a decision for my question. So I am starting another benchwork thread and asking it here.

1) On various layout builds on youtube videos I have seen people build the framing of the benchwork, then cut the plywood to the width needed for the track in the shape of the track path and raise that off the bench 2 inches. Then lay the cork and track on the plywood path. It looks like then they cover the remaining area of the benchwork with foam board which ends up level with the ply or what ever effect that they are going for.

2) Then there are those who build the frame work, cover it with 1/4 or 1/3 plywood, cover that with foam (normally 1 inch), and then lay the cork and track on the foam.

3) And of course there are those who build the frame work, lay plywood down, and lay the cork and track on that.

What are the various reasons for the different methods. Why would I want to choose one over the other? I could see option 1 being used for elevation change. But in the whole layout like I have seen on the videos?

_flood gates opened_
John


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

A follow up to my above question.

My L shape layout is based on several sections in various sizes...
1ft by 8ft
4ft by 8ft
3ft by 6.5ft (two)
2ft by 6ft (two)


As I am cutting down larger lumber to make my 1x4s which I am doing from 6x4 and 12x4, with out assistance its impossible to resaw lumber that size alone. Is there any reason I would not be able to build no section larger than I could do with a 4ft long 1x4?










John


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Revision to above post...
As I am cutting down larger lumber to make my 1x4s which I am doing from 6x4 and 12x4, with out assistance its impossible to resaw lumber that size alone *in 8ft length and longer*. Is there any reason I would not be able to build no section larger than I could do with a 4ft long 1x4?


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Benchwork choices depend on a number of factors. L girder is lighter than 2X4 and usually straighter. Putting plywood only in areas that will have track is lighter than laying a sheet of plywood over the whole bench, but it limits what you can change (or makes it harder to change things later).

If I understand correctly, you have 4X6 and 4X12 lumber (actual size 3.5” X 5.5” and 3.5” X 11.25”). Seems like way too much work to resaw those into 1X4s. You can use 4’ long 1x4s on your longer sections if you put a leg under the joint, but I would go with longer lumber.

Your overall layout is 8’ X 14’ so you will need pop ups/lift outs. That kind of points to method one at least for some of the layout.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Really, you've just scratched the surface on possible ways of doing your benchwork. It isn't even necessary to have ANY surface at all on the top of your benchwork, especially if you use the so-called "cookie cutter method" (#1 above). All you need is a firm surface directly under your track (called subroadbed). Wood splines is another method you haven't considered that was very popular, and maybe still is.

As with everything else, there is no definitive answer, otherwise everyone would do it. There is only what works for you.

There are 4 factors to consider: cost, ease of construction, stability, and weight.
1) Cost: plywood is more expensive than foam. The more of it you use, the greater the difference. If you use the cookie cutter method, most people would just leave the rest of the sheet of plywood as the "base" of the layout. If you just cut the roadbed, you waste a lot of plywood.
2) Ease of construction: Foam is easier to cut and shape than plywood. This is especially a consideration when building terrain features below track level. Foam is usually attached with adhesive rather than screws or nails. Spline subroadbed is exceptionally sturdy, but takes a lot of repetitive cuts on a table or band saw to make the splines. Spline and pure cookie cutter (without a tabletop) also means you have to use screen, cardboard web, etc, to define your terrain shape.
3) Stability: it's easier to make a sturdy frame / surface out of wood, although extruded foam panels are pretty strong. Foam is more susceptible to damage due to physical impact.
4) Weight. Plywood, especially 3/4" plywood is heavy. If you're going to be moving modules, you probably want them as light as possible. If your tables are going to be arrancpged as shown, you will have to either move them or cut access hatches to get to the middle.

I'm not sure what you mean by descriptions of lumber. Plywood comes in various thicknesses, and is described in LxW terms. Dimensional lumber is usually described by the cross section (2×4, etc.) times its length (8', 12', etc).

There is really no restriction on how you can build it. It is certainly possible to construct a series of 1' or 2' by 4' modules and bolt them together. While it's possible to suspend a module by bolting it to the adjacent ones, generally each module will have two or more legs under it. More modules means more legs, and more wood, so more cost. The other factor to consider here is that every piece of structure under your subroadbed is a potential obstruction when placing switch machines. Legs and braces interfere with storing things under the layout.

My real advice, though, is that it's definitely possible to go into paralysis by analysis on this one. Rather than assemble a compendium of benchwork advice, decide what you want to do (and it kind of sounds like you have already), check the pros and cons, and proceed.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Lehigh74 said:


> Benchwork choices depend on a number of factors. .... That kind of points to method one at least for some of the layout.


Hey bob, thanks for the reply. To elaborate on some items. One of the reasons for building it in in the above shown sections is my hope of getting into a club and being able to move this layout in pieces to a exhibit at times such as when the train show is at the fairgrounds. Breaking it into smaller sections is so that I can work with the resawing of the lumber alone... lol

As to why I am resawing my lumber, there was a thread here recently where a new builder went to the lumber store and bought a bunch of 1x4's and when he looked closer to them at home, he found that over half were unusable as a result of not being straight. I have found the same and have opted to cut my own 1x4s (yes 3/4 by 3.5) with my own tools (up right band saw and a 15 inch cutting width thickness planer). I have done this in the past and found that its worked alot better with the projects I have done. To the point that I am buying a bandsaw saw mill the next chance I get.

I have never heard of L-Girder construction till you brought it up. As a result, I looked it up. As much as I like the idea of that. I am still faced with the same issue. Poor quality starting lumber or just cutting my own. My layout I bought which I am working with now is one large shape built with 2x4 construction and 3/4 inch plywood and weighs in at almost 250 pounds with no structures and only a plaster mountain on it.


----------



## Dave NYC 1962 (Oct 17, 2020)

johnfm3 said:


> Revision to above post...
> As I am cutting down larger lumber to make my 1x4s which I am doing from 6x4 and 12x4, with out assistance its impossible to resaw lumber that size alone *in 8ft length and longer*. Is there any reason I would not be able to build no section larger than I could do with a 4ft long 1x4?


You are going to ripsaw 8 ft+ 6”x4” into 1”x4”s? That is a serious saw you have.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> ...My real advice, though, is that it's definitely possible to go into paralysis by analysis on this one. Rather than assemble a compendium of benchwork advice (or get everyone else to do your research for you) decide what you want to do (and it kind of sounds like you have already), check the pros and cons, and proceed.


I am asking the question as I am seeking others opinions on the pros and cons of each. And asking for feedback as to what people with more experiance than I believe so I can make a better decision for my layout.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Dave NYC 1962 said:


> You are going to ripsaw 8 ft+ 6”x4” into 1”x4”s? That is a serious saw you have.


Thanks for the compliment. Yes it is. And it does a great job. I must say that a good blade goes along way to helping the saw. I have invested alot in to my wood working tools so I can do stuff like this as I have a passion for wood working as a hobby.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Mine is cookie cutter design because there are three levels of track. This also allows for much varied scenery elevations. Some, but not all of the plywood was removed after cutting the sub-roadbed. This was for reasons of access to the far corners of the layout. These areas would have been impossible to otherwise reach without crawling over and destroying the scenery.

The trackplan and elevations plus the height at which the layout is built effectively minimizes the visibility of the access points in the benchwork.

There is no foam on my layout, nor is my track or roadbed glued.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

MichaelE said:


> Mine is cookie cutter design because there are three levels of track.


Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Three tracks cross one another at different elevations. Two HO dual mainlines and an HOm narrow guage spur over both HO main lines.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

johnfm3 said:


> As to why I am resawing my lumber, there was a thread here recently where a new builder went to the lumber store and bought a bunch of 1x4's and when he looked closer to them at home, he found that over half were unusable as a result of not being straight. I have found the same and have opted to cut my own 1x4s (yes 3/4 by 3.5) with my own tools (up right band saw and a 15 inch cutting width thickness planer). I have done this in the past and found that its worked alot better with the projects I have done. To the point that I am buying a bandsaw saw mill the next chance I get.


Interesting that you and many others find only lousy lumber at the big box stores. To be sure, there is definitely some low grade lumber out there. I have cherry picked lumber that was straight in the store, but warped as soon as I got it home. If the lumber isn’t too terrible, it can be made straight by making it into L girders. There is also some good lumber at the big bow stores. I have had good luck cherry picking grade No. 1 1Xs. I use Radiata 1X material for drawer sides and cabinets. I also get Burrill 2X4s on occasion. Both Radiata and Burrill are available at Home Depot at a somewhat higher price than standard lumber.

Be honest now John. You are mainly resawing the lumber so you can play with your bandsaw.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Lehigh74 said:


> Interesting that you and many others find only lousy lumber at the big box stores. To be sure, there is definitely some low grade lumber out there. I have cherry picked lumber that was straight in the store, but warped as soon as I got it home. If the lumber isn’t too terrible, it can be made straight by making it into L girders. There is also some good lumber at the big bow stores. I have had good luck cherry picking grade No. 1 1Xs. I use Radiata 1X material for drawer sides and cabinets. I also get Burrill 2X4s on occasion. Both Radiata and Burrill are available at Home Depot at a somewhat higher price than standard lumber.
> 
> Be honest now John. You are mainly resawing the lumber so you can play with your bandsaw.


I am sure part of the lumber selection is based on location. I live in the Pacific North West where we dont tan, we rust. lol I live in the cascade mountain foot hills in the Tacoma Seattle area in Washington. I only buy my lumber from Home Depot as they do much better than Lowes.

Of course yeah, I do like working with my tools...  Which is a added bonus to resawing. The bandsaw is only half the equation. The lumber has to bounce between the bandsaw and the thickness planer to ensure the lumber remains flat and true. This added work means more exercise for me which is part of my weight loss program as well.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think it's as much about people heading for the cheap lumber and finding.... cheap lumber. Quality costs a little more.

I buy from my local lumber yard. For one thing, it's a local, business, but for another, I don t mind paying a few cents more per board foot if it means I can use 95% of what I bring home.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> ...I don t mind paying a few cents more per board foot if it means I can use 95% of what I bring home.


i dont believe that 95% of the 1x4s in the complete size at home depot are straight enough for a RR layout... lol You really have to cherry pick to get straight lumber unless you want to pay the prime price which is often almost 3 times as much.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I didn't have to do a lot of picking at Menards. It all looked pretty good from the skid I selected from.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Bringing this thread back to the original point of it. After time spent researching, I have come to a few different methods as to how to build the layout bench work. And I have started this thread to discuss the pro's and con's of those above listed methods so that I can make a sound decision on how to proceed with my next layout bench work.

At this time I have never built a layout, only bought the one I have which I believe is way over kill built with 2x4s with a 18 inch center and 3/4 inch ply. All good if building a floor. Probably a bit over kill for a train layout.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Very much overkill.

Well, since you are an accomplished woodworker I would give strong consideration to the cookie cutter and L girder methods. This gives much more latitude in shaping your landscape to match what your mind is imagining.

I have exactly the layout I wanted with the cookie cutter approach.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

MichaelE said:


> Very much overkill.
> 
> Well, since you are an accomplished woodworker I would give strong consideration to the cookie cutter and L girder methods. This gives much more latitude in shaping your landscape to match what your mind is imagining.
> 
> I have exactly the layout I wanted with the cookie cutter approach.


So all the modules are built the same, and you just oriented them the way you wanted to fit the track layout you wanted?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Pretty much.

After my three tables were finished, 1/2" plywood sheet was laid out on the table frames and temporarily fastened to the benchwork.

The entire full size layout was then drawn onto the plywood with margins for roadbed and then cut with a sabre saw.

This is what you end up with:


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

johnfm3 said:


> Hey bob, thanks for the reply. To elaborate on some items. One of the reasons for building it in in the above shown sections is my hope of getting into a club and being able to move this layout in pieces to a exhibit at times such as when the train show is at the fairgrounds. Breaking it into smaller sections is so that I can work with the resawing of the lumber alone... lol
> 
> As to why I am resawing my lumber, there was a thread here recently where a new builder went to the lumber store and bought a bunch of 1x4's and when he looked closer to them at home, he found that over half were unusable as a result of not being straight. I have found the same and have opted to cut my own 1x4s (yes 3/4 by 3.5) with my own tools (up right band saw and a 15 inch cutting width thickness planer). I have done this in the past and found that its worked alot better with the projects I have done. To the point that I am buying a bandsaw saw mill the next chance I get.
> 
> I have never heard of L-Girder construction till you brought it up. As a result, I looked it up. As much as I like the idea of that. I am still faced with the same issue. Poor quality starting lumber or just cutting my own. My layout I bought which I am working with now is one large shape built with 2x4 construction and 3/4 inch plywood and weighs in at almost 250 pounds with no structures and only a plaster mountain on it.


johnfm3;

That's what happens when you ask a question on the forum, you get a bunch of answers, and they often have different opinions in them. Not too surprising, since they come from different people. 

L-girder construction simply uses two pieces of lumber (typically a 1 x 3 and a 1x 2) screwed and glued to each other to form an 'L' shape when viewed from the end. (see photos) In building the girder it's not too difficult to straighten out some warps in the lumber that forms it. Once screwed and glued, it can be straight. After the glue dries, the screws can be removed, and the girder will not change shape.
The 'L'-girder system of benchwork was invented by Linn Westcott in the 1960s. It used two long L-girder beams on 2 x 2 legs set back 1/5th of the length of the beam from the end. This was the point where the overall support was equalized on either side of the leg, but it kept the legs away from the edge of the layout.
The two main girders had 1 x 3 or 1 x 4 "joists" or "stringers", set at approx. 16-20" from each other. The 'L' beam was installed upside down, and screws could be driven up through the flange of the 'L' girder and into the joists. All screw heads were accessible from under the layout. This meant that if a joist was in the way of that river you decided to install, you could unscrew it from below, and move it.

'L'-girder benchwork was used long before extruded foam insulation board started to be used as a scenery material. The scenery then was typically "hard shell" a thin layer of overlapping paper towels soaked in "Hydrocal" a very strong plaster. The towels were temporarily supported by wads of newspaper. Once the plaster had set up, the newspaper could be removed, leaving a self supporting shell of scenery. Sometimes chicken wire, or window screen, were used as permanent support under the plaster. 
This system isn't used much today, but the key element, the 'L'-girder can still be used with other forms of benchwork. An 'L'-girder is virtually warp proof, which might be a consideration for you since you live in an area that gets plenty of rain and probably interior moisture. I use the 'L'-girder principle on a much smaller scale. My sub-roadbed is cut to the shape of the track route and consists of 1/4" Luan plywood with 1" x 1/8" beams glued under, and along each edge of the plywood. This gives excellent, very rigid support, won't warp, and is still very lightweight.

Traction Fan 🙂


----------



## Djsfantasi (Mar 19, 2019)

johnfm3 said:


> I have never heard of L-Girder construction till you brought it up. As a result, I looked it up. As much as I like the idea of that. I am still faced with the same issue. Poor quality starting lumber


One of the advantages of L girder benchwork is that it’s extremely forgiving of poor quality lumber. Unless a board looks like a hockey stick, it can be used for L girder construction. A straight board is not required. Unless it is pick full of knots, the technique will adjust to the lumber you have. My largest layout (20’x24’) was built with L girder and I never checked that a board was straight. Hence, it can be cheaper to use.


----------



## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Djsfantasi said:


> ...My largest layout (20’x24’) was built with L girder and I never checked that a board was straight. Hence, it can be cheaper to use.


Thats an interesting concept. I will look into this further. Thanks ~ John


----------



## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

If crooked 1x4 lumber for benchwork is a problem, the solution is to not use solid lumber! simply set your table saw up for ripping 3.5" wide strips off the 8' side of good quality 5 or more ply cabinet grade 3/4" birch plywood. Cheaper than same quantity of straight solid lumber and will stay straight. If you don't have a table saw up to the task, you can buy an 8+' long guide bar or press into service the edge of another sheet of plywood and a few drywall screws to guide a circular saw. Use a good quality carbide tipped ATB hollow ground blade and adjust the cutting depth so that, as my wood design professor was fond of chanting: "The tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth..." extends past the other side of the wood for glass smooth cuts. If you want perfectly flat and true L girders, cut some 1.75 wide strips off the same ply and attach with biscuit joiners, screws, and glue. You'll be able to stand on the 8' girders with negligible deflection. Just take the time to verify that the saw's guide shoe is truly parallel and square to the blade, many are not, don't trust the built in stops or markings on the saw. Install the girders in a 3'x3' grid for S gauge or larger, a 4'x4' grid for HO gauge or smaller layout, and if you ever get tired of the layout cover the top with 3/4" ply and use if for a bridge across a stream! LOL!


----------

