# 3rd revision of layout plans



## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

Well, I've got done my 3rd revision of my layout. 
I am going to go with HO scale so that I can run my trains on my dad's layout and he could his on mine. 
The top is going to be 1" to 1.5" rigid foam. 
I am going with the NCE DCC system.
I will probably be sticking to 4 axle locomotives, but I might buy 1 or 2 six axle.
In the closet I am going to put a staging yard, which I currently have at 5 feet long, but might just increase to the full 7.5 feet length.
I am 6 feet tall so will probably make the top of the layout at between 44-48 inches.
Eventually I might add a second layer, but haven't thought that far ahead yet.

I have three ideas on areas for the layout currently, still have 4 areas to decide what to model. I am not modelling any one railroad area/line or one time period, sort of free form I guess you would call it. I will probably be using CP and CN for the most part as I am in Canada, but might buy others as well.

The image shows my current revision of my layout idea. The track lines are just a general idea and are not to scale.


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

johnvosh said:


> Well, I've got done my 3rd revision of my layout.
> I am going to go with HO scale so that I can run my trains on my dad's layout and he could his on mine.
> The top is going to be 1" to 1.5" rigid foam.
> I am going with the NCE DCC system.
> ...


 is that yard going to be behind a wall? Will you be able to see it from the controls?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

When you have a yard and also sidings and spurs
you are going to need a passing siding. The siding
makes it possible to run 'around' a car. That would
enable a loco to push a car forward into a siding...or
shove a car backward. I note that you have one
at the top of the layout. It would be helpful to have
one in the bottom area.

Will you be having a hinged lift bridge at both 'doorways'
or just one?

Don


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## gardena_shortline (Dec 5, 2019)

Looks like a fun setup. 

You might take a look at the storage yard as I think the number of tracks you'll be able to fit is too ambitious. Turnout ladders take up a lot of length. Each turnout is around a foot long usually.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

gardena_shortline said:


> Looks like a fun setup.
> 
> You might take a look at the storage yard as I think the number of tracks you'll be able to fit is too ambitious. Turnout ladders take up a lot of length. Each turnout is around a foot long usually.


That's one advantage to layout planning software: the program keeps you honest. For the OP, you don't need software, but to make sure that plan works as designed, you'll have to be a little more accurate with your track geometry on the drawing.

Another issue down in that area is that the yard is stub ended. Any loco that pulls a train in there is buried. It takes a long and convoluted backup move to run a loco around a train (during which time, it will block either one of the mains, or the yard lead) to avoid this.

I see two, not one segments of track the could be used (upper right and lower left) for passing / runaround, but they're long sections of mainline, not passing sidings.


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## gardena_shortline (Dec 5, 2019)

CTValleyRR said:


> Another issue down in that area is that the yard is stub ended. Any loco that pulls a train in there is buried.


I don't think that's too big of an issue. I have a 3 track stub yard on my layout. I just use it for staging trains using my 0-5-0 switcher. And then I get more length since I don't need to have a second ladder at the far end.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

In my five track stub yard, if a head-in locomotive needs to visit the shop after dropping the train, a switch locomotive on a separate parking track ahead of the yard lead is available to push the train in while the locomotive visits the shops.

For a tail-in train, of course the locomotive can just drop the train and proceed to the locomotive shop.

I have three trains that operate in one direction on the main and three trains that operate in the opposite direction on the other main. 

That means three of those trains will be tail-in and the other three will be head-in when they are staged.

I agree about the yard ladder though. That drawing has an extremely compressed yard ladder which is going to be much longer than you think. That doesn't leave a lot of length for storage on the yards tracks at the end of the ladder.

You can save some space with #4 turnouts instead of #6 if you won't be switching a lot of 80'-85' coaches. They don't like the sharp turnouts much.

This is a five track yard using #6 Peco turnouts. Number 6 was used because of all the passenger coach traffic my yard sees.

The length of the ladder from first turnout to last is 40". That only leaves a little over three feet for the last track. That isn't used much as yard space but as a lead for the engine service facility. It can be used for staging a short train, but it is mostly for locomotives awaiting their turn for service.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

johnvosh said:


> In the closet I am going to put a staging yard, which I currently have at 5 feet long, but might just increase to the full 7.5 feet length.
> 
> I have three ideas on areas for the layout currently, still have 4 areas to decide what to model. I am not modelling any one railroad area/line or one time period, sort of free form I guess you would call it. I will probably be using CP and CN for the most part as I am in Canada, but might buy others as well.
> 
> The image shows my current revision of my layout idea. The track lines are just a general idea and are not to scale.


My fellow Canadian. I grew up in Edmonton and moved to Kelowna 10 years ago. But I digress.

You'll want to use up the full length of the closet for your staging yard. My staging yard is just over 8 feet long. 









The turnouts to go from the single main to 6 staging tracks is 3 feet alone.









I model CP only. It's a good choice!









My layout is based on freight so I have a few intermodal containers, tanker cars, and boxcars.

















Have fun!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You need a beer fridge next to the cabinet. It looks lonely.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Oh Michael Michael Michael ...











PS - sorry to hijack this thread


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

Love the Saturn V and umblical tower.

You might be interested in this. I've studied the F1 extensively. As can be imagined, it's quite a bit more involved than Minuteman solid fuel boosters.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150509173846/http://agentdc.uah.edu/homepages/dcfiles/USSRC/F1EngiFamiTraiManu%20Section%201_072308152849.pdf


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

DonR said:


> When you have a yard and also sidings and spurs you are going to need a passing siding. The siding makes it possible to run 'around' a car. That would enable a loco to push a car forward into a siding...or shove a car backward. I note that you have one at the top of the layout. It would be helpful to have one in the bottom area.
> 
> Will you be having a hinged lift bridge at both 'doorways'
> or just one?
> ...


I thought there was two passing sidings on this setup? I looked at it, and it looks like there is the main track on the bottom and then a siding off of that. And then at the top, there is a similar setup. I am probably wrong as I am still learning.

Yes, there will be a hinged area at both doors, just hadn't drawn it at the top one.



Cousin Eddie said:


> is that yard going to be behind a wall? Will you be able to see it from the controls?


Yes, but I will be able to see it standing at the bridge area fairly easy.



gardena_shortline said:


> Looks like a fun setup.
> 
> You might take a look at the storage yard as I think the number of tracks you'll be able to fit is too ambitious. Turnout ladders take up a lot of length. Each turnout is around a foot long usually.


I wasn't sure how many I would actually be able to fit in there, so I just drew a bunch of lines. After looking at other replies, I will probably take it down to 6-7 tracks and the full length of the room.



CTValleyRR said:


> That's one advantage to layout planning software: the program keeps you honest. For the OP, you don't need software, but to make sure that plan works as designed, you'll have to be a little more accurate with your track geometry on the drawing.


Looking at the scale example of the layout that I am getting ideas from, it looks like most of the turnouts are #6 and then a couple #4's, and then there is also 3 re-railers.



Thank you for all the help and ideas, they help a lot.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
> 
> Love the Saturn V and umblical tower.
> 
> ...


You are my new BFF! I think we have some common interests. I love everything about past and current space stuff ever since I was a young kid. I love technical documents especially when it comes to space.

Here's my office ...









Again sorry to hijack this thread johnvosh!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I started building and flying model rockets as a boy. I ended up working on the Minuteman II ICBM in the Air Force.

That F1 manual is a fascinating read.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> I started building and flying model rockets as a boy. I ended up working on the Minuteman II ICBM in the Air Force.
> 
> That F1 manual is a fascinating read.


I had model rockets too. Estes Hercules, Space Shuttle, Blackbird, just to name a few. I wish I still had them. 

I still have a Tamiya RC buggy that I play with every now and my DJI Spark drone.

I'm hitting 50 in a few years but still a kid at heart!

I'm reading the F1 technical document right now.


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

MichaelE said:


> I agree about the yard ladder though. That drawing has an extremely compressed yard ladder which is going to be much longer than you think. That doesn't leave a lot of length for storage on the yards tracks at the end of the ladder.
> 
> You can save some space with #4 turnouts instead of #6 if you won't be switching a lot of 80'-85' coaches. They don't like the sharp turnouts much.
> 
> ...


In one of my other posts, it was suggested that I use a hinged track selector, can't think of the name, that would pivot at one end and then I can line it up with multiple 



deedub35 said:


> My fellow Canadian. I grew up in Edmonton and moved to Kelowna 10 years ago. But I digress.
> 
> You'll want to use up the full length of the closet for your staging yard. My staging yard is just over 8 feet long.
> 
> ...


I grew up in Invermere/Radium BC and have been in Edmonton area for the past 12 years now. Grew up with a CP Rail line, so that is what I most remember seeing and then once I moved up here, there is CN and CP.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

We grew up in Castledowns and dad still lives there. I come back to E once a year to visit dad. During the drive along HWY 1 we’ll always be on the lookout for trains - lots of intermodal trains which piques my interest. While in E We’ll always stop by the CP tracks on Gateway Blvd and the CN Calder yards on 127 Ave to railfan for a bit.


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

deedub35 said:


> We grew up in Castledowns and dad still lives there. I come back to E once a year to visit dad. During the drive along HWY 1 we’ll always be on the lookout for trains - lots of intermodal trains which piques my interest. While in E We’ll always stop by the CP tracks on Gateway Blvd and the CN Calder yards on 127 Ave to railfan for a bit.


I work in Spruce Grove and our yard is right against the tracks. I am not in that part of the yard often, but lots of trains go past every day. See it all from intermodal's to grain to boxcars to vehicle carriers to LPG tankers (why are LPG tankers so expensive compared to other rolling stock???)


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Tanker cars and container well cars are pricey I agree. Maybe all the detail? Containers are expensive too - if I can’t buy a rectangular piece of plastic for less than $15 then I pass on it.

Oh and I’ll always make a trip to Hobby Wholesale on Gateway Blvd. Love that store.

There are a lot more train shops in Calgary though.


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

deedub35 said:


> Tanker cars and container well cars are pricey I agree. Maybe all the detail? Containers are expensive too - if I can’t buy a rectangular piece of plastic for less than $15 then I pass on it.
> 
> Oh and I’ll always make a trip to Hobby Wholesale on Gateway Blvd. Love that store.
> 
> There are a lot more train shops in Calgary though.


 That is the truth! I wanted to have a container yard with a crane and bunch of cars and tractors trailers in it but the cost was crazy for those things! Can’t believe how much the containers go for in any scale they seem to cost the same. I gave up on that idea real quick!


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

Cousin Eddie said:


> That is the truth! I wanted to have a container yard with a crane and bunch of cars and tractors trailers in it but the cost was crazy for those things! Can’t believe how much the containers go for in any scale they seem to cost the same. I gave up on that idea real quick!


I just had a look on ebay and the LPG cars are going for roughly C$50 - C$80+ each, plus it is about C$30 for shipping from the US. I'm sorry, but they aren't worth that. I'd pay at most C$37/each with no shipping cost.

I was wanting to have a little propane setup on my layout, but not with the prices of the cars I'm not. Maybe I'll find some at the April swap meet


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

deedub35 said:


> Tanker cars and container well cars are pricey I agree. Maybe all the detail? Containers are expensive too - if I can’t buy a rectangular piece of plastic for less than $15 then I pass on it.
> 
> Oh and I’ll always make a trip to Hobby Wholesale on Gateway Blvd. Love that store.
> 
> There are a lot more train shops in Calgary though.


They aren't worth over C$50 each though. If they were more reasonable around C$37 each it wouldn't be so bad.

Yup, Hobby Wholesale, the only hobby store in the entire metro area that sells model train stuff. 3-4 years ago we had at least 6-8 hobby stores, now we are down to just a couple. It sucks though, because it means HW can charge a premium for the stock because they basically have a monopoly. It is also amazing how much that store has expanded over the past couple of years too


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

This is the plan that I am basing my layout on, but putting my own scenery and stuff in and expanding the length and width. It has all the turn out #'s and the radius. I am hoping that I should be able to use this for my radius size and everything correct?


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Nice plan. I like it.

I’m always looking at eBay, kijiji, craigslist, and out here castanet for deals. Look long enough and there are deals to be had. The key is to find stuff in Canada so shipping doesn’t kill you although I have bought some from the US as long as the total price is palatable. I have bought some things retail too.

Most of my locomotives were off eBay so including shipping I didn’t want to spend more than $125 CAN for a DC loco as I needed to get a DCC decoder too.

My four green Procor tanker cars (my favorite) were about $150 CAN shipped.

I picked up a few lots of containers over the years - some ended up being like $10 CAN each inc shipping!

The four 5-car Thrall were retail like $100 per pop.

Look around and be patient and over time you’ll build up a good fleet of pulling power and have some nice rolling stock.


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

johnvosh said:


> Cousin Eddie said:
> 
> 
> > That is the truth! I wanted to have a container yard with a crane and bunch of cars and tractors trailers in it but the cost was crazy for those things! Can’t believe how much the containers go for in any scale they seem to cost the same. I gave up on that idea real quick!
> ...


 Yeah the prices on some stuff is crazy I watch eBay every day to find deals. Sometimes I get lucky. I go to as many train shows as I can because I hate paying shipping but those are totally hit and miss.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Cousin Eddie said:


> Yeah the prices on some stuff is crazy I watch eBay every day to find deals. Sometimes I get lucky. I go to as many train shows as I can because I hate paying shipping but those are totally hit and miss.


Yeah - sometimes the price of the item and what they want for shipping is outrageous. Some sellers need to give their heads a shake.


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## Jackets (Jan 24, 2020)

Ramblings (in short shipping makes money.)


Spoiler



Shipping is to pad profits, I used to work for a online car parts place. We'd import the parts and pack ship it out to save customers the hassle customs and brokerage. 

we bought from mainly restoration parts from sellers similar to Summit Racing, prices were converted to CAD(from list not cost), then 30% was added. Shipping on small items was chart based and i never shipped anything out that was under quoted for shipping even on the flat rate chart. If it was LTL i had to pack and quote, then add 30% charge it and send it. (all orders received to us was free shipping) 

A simple 60's dash cigarette lighter listed at $15usd, CAD $18.75+30% so $24.38 (cost would of been $15.93cad) shipping was charged flat rate at $15cad, cost would of been about $8.75 unless it was headed to the Yukon lol. So it was a $14.70 Gross profit on that item.

I think the only thing i didn't pack and ship was an engine, and that only because we didn't want the hassle. 

Anyways enough Rambling.



Prices can be shocking, when hunting things. Any retailer i find i drop into my bookmarks "Stores" folder and run though them hunting prices and comparing shipping.

Pricing seems to vary widely on some items like locomotives. 

Cheers,
Joe


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

johnvosh said:


> This is the plan that I am basing my layout on, but putting my own scenery and stuff in and expanding the length and width. It has all the turn out #'s and the radius. I am hoping that I should be able to use this for my radius size and everything correct?


John, that's a tried and true plan. I think you will like it. Have you thought about how you will get into the center?


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> John, that's a tried and true plan. I think you will like it. Have you thought about how you will get into the center?


Here is Rev 4 sketch of my layout, showing the track. I have basically extended the layout in the above example to 10 feet by 10.5 feet and am putting a 2' X 7.5' staging area in the closet with a tunnel thru the wall. And I have made it 2' wide instead of just 1', to give me more room to work with scenery.

I plan on having a hinged lift up at the main door, which I have removed and then a hinged lift up going into the closet. The area going into the closet will have a double bridge and a nice river flowing under it.

I have also added a second mainline and another track along the 32" wide section.

This sketch is to scale, as I copied most of the track from the original layout and extended it. I think it will look good once it is all built!


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

> I have also added a second mainline and another track along the 32" wide section.


32" against the wall is awfully deep reach. those few extra inches add aggravation exponentially. I have 30" shelf , reaching last 6" doing trackwork is pain , once the front gets scenery it will be even worse. 
I would strongly advice not going more then 24" deep

good luck


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

Well, I am up to revision 6 now... probably 1-2 more revisions until final!


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

*Revision 7 final*

Getting the wood at work this weekend and then building it, can't wait. I am maximizing the space of the layout in the room and will leave the peninsula until the very end before installing it.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

I would 45 degree the jut outs when you enter the room so you don't hit your hip on those sharp corners.

I'm not sure with the peninsula though. My preference would be to have the middle of the room open so if you have a friend in there running another train you're not bumping into each other. But it's your layout so your rules!

Now start cutting wood!


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## johnvosh (Feb 2, 2020)

deedub35 said:


> I would 45 degree the jut outs when you enter the room so you don't hit your hip on those sharp corners.


Thank you for the reminder on that, I thought of it after I had put the tape on the floor.


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