# humidity-proofing old track and trains for storage



## phreaddy (Jan 1, 2011)

I live in Houston Texas, and am planning to put away my postwar Lionels for storage, as my kids are losing interest. I'm from the Northeast, where all this stuff was in storage for decades, with no rust at all. But not here. Should I spray the track liberally with WD-40? What about the engines' internal motors, the trucks of the rest of the cars, and the transformers?


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

If possible store them in a temperate controlled environment and styrofoam is your worst enemy.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I was thinking of some storage options myself for the seasonal trains. I was thinking of how they store food long term in sealed buckets and then use thoose silic? Packs that absorbe moisture. Its just an idea, I have not tested it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Silica gel (or similar) packets can help, for sure, with the train(s) in a sealed container, if possible.

Perhaps put a light coat of oil on track tops and motor parts ... 5W-20 or 5W-30 motor oil.

When I put my trains in storage, I wrap them up in 1'x1' microfiber towels ... the kind you buy at Walmart in a bundle in the auto-supply section. They're soft/gentle on the trains, offer some cushion, and might (?) help to wick away any surface moisture. I store the trains in snap-lid plastic containers.

TJ


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

TJ,.... are the big Rubbermaid tubs, with the locking lids, considered "sealed" in your experience? That is what I have been using....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You will need lots of silica gel, more than you might imagine, and you need to make sure the containers are 100% sealed.

Try this site to calculate the correct amounts.

*How much Silica Gel do I need?*


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

The combo of all three should do the trick.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Robes said:


> TJ,.... are the big Rubbermaid tubs, with the locking lids, considered "sealed" in your experience? That is what I have been using....


"Seal" is a bit of a nebulous word. Quick answer to your question is probably "No", but it's somewhat of a relative thing.

What kind of room are you planning to store the trains in? One with heat and/or air conditioning? Something with no heat, exposed fully to winter cold, summer humidity?

Per John's comment above (on quantity of silica gel), perhaps check out some of the capacity/rating info on these DampRid products ...

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cat...=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=Search+All

Cheers,

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just looked up silica gel on the web. Some people say that tidy cat cat litter with silica works just as well. They put it in an old sock, stocking, (something that breathes) . I never tried it but worth a shot. The people who recomended this used it for ammo storage.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

IMO, you stick with proven technology, not Internet wisdom.  I'd use the recommend amount of silica gel in a truly sealed container. Lack of 100% sealing negates the effectiveness of any storage medium.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

If I didn't trust some internet wisdom I wouldn't be on this forum! (Which has been very helpful.) I do agree that it isn't pure silica but clay cat litter is basicly speedy dry. Its used to absorbe spills and oders. Mix that with silica , a cheap price and a large quantity of it. It could have potential. Could be woth a shot. Obviously a controlled environment would be best. Just putting forth some ideas. And by the way gunrunner your old posts have been very helpful. I recently found something from a few years ago. I actually found out how to navigate the Lionel site! Thanks.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I agree with GRJ. Be careful using someone's opinion from the Internet. You need hard test data as the trains are likely going to be in storage for a long while. 

My experience in Florida is that trains must be stored in an air conditioned building, and that the AC must not be run at a temp above about 76 or 78 deg or it doesn't get the humidity low enough.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I once received a "new" Legacy locomotive from an eBay sale. It was indeed in a sealed Lionel shipping carton, never been out at all. When I removed it, it was HOPELESSLY mildewed to the point that the manual in the plastic bag was just a black blob of goo! Of course, the locomotive and tender were ugly as well. Needless to say, I returned it, but there's a lesson here. Even though there was silica gel packets in the box, it obviously wasn't nearly enough. Also, the factory packaging, while pretty good, was also obviously not 100% sealed.

If they're stored in a humid environment, or one that will experience large temperature swings, there is absolutely no substitute to proper packaging. At the top of the list is a 100% sealed environment. You also need sufficient drying agent or the container filled with 100% nitrogen to insure long term integrity. 

While I can't say that kitty litter won't work, I can assure you if I store my trains in such an environment, I won't be doing it with kitty litter.


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## Hellgate (Nov 9, 2011)

Do you have any friends/family members back in the Northeast? If so maybe they can store your trains so you won't worry. It seems like most anything else is risky.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hellgate said:


> Do you have any friends/family members back in the Northeast? If so maybe they can store your trains so you won't worry. It seems like most anything else is risky.


I'll take 'em!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can store them in air-conditioned comfort. And, they'll get some exercise from time to time.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, the problem with the new Lionel set most probably was caused by porosity of the packaging material. Water will diffuse through plastic which is why freezer bags are different than plastic bags to use in the refrigerator. When we design gimbals, we usually use a desiccant canister to keep the inside of the gimbal dry. The canister has an indicator on it to tell you when to replace it. The gimbal is sealed, but the water diffuses through the windows, O rings, etc.

You can make containers that are hermetically sealed, but they are made from metal and welded shut. Not the ideal thing for toy trains.

For a plastic container, thicker is better. Plastic bags are probably worthless if the humidity is high.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I realize that Bruce. My point is that if you want to protect something with a drying agent, you have to have a properly sealed container or you'll only be fooling yourself. For aerospace instruments, many of them were sealed with dry nitrogen to insure they stayed moisture-free.

A properly sealed plastic container should keep them for an extended period with sufficient drying agent. The key words here are *sufficient drying agent*. The more porous the container is, the more drying agent you need and/or you need to replace it more frequently.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm surprised the humidity here in the Northeast didn't wreak havoc on your trains in storage.

Many woodworkers in the South use Boesheild to protect their tools. http://boeshield.com/

I used to buy a Cool Whip like tub of "stuff" from Bliss Marine that absorbed moisture in the cabin of my boat. 

Good luck


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't know that you're going to want to coat your trains with BioShield, so I'm not sure that's an option.


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## phreaddy (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm gonna agree with GRJ that there's no practical way to hermetically seal everything. So again, Boeshield, WD40? What's your pleasure? Is there anything I shouldn't coat?


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

Why not sell the track, and only worry about storing the engines?

Maybe keep the switches, unless you're sure you can pick them up again for a reasonable price / you want to upgrade the raduis for the next layout.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The only real way to keep them from getting ruined is in a temperature controlled environment.

How many trains we talking about?
A few boxes? Or a ton?
Where are you thinking of storing them? The heat in an attic or storage unit will affect them also. Do you have room in a closet?

Speaking of humidity, low humidity is almost as bad as high humidity you know.
Stay away from wrapping in newspaper,clothes and bubble wrap. 
Get yourself some sheets of acid-free tissue paper with a few silica gel sacks in each of the boxes.

But like my first sentence says that is the best way to store them.


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## phreaddy (Jan 1, 2011)

I'll be storing them in bedroom closets... we keep the AC at about 86 when we're not home and 80 when we are. 86 is the warmest we can keep it and not get mildew problems. In the winter (and Houston is just as damp in the winter as it is humid in the summer) we just turn the heat off completely at night and away from home. In the two years that I've had my trains here, out and and set up on a layout, the tracks have rusted more than they did in the multiple decades up north.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

phreaddy said:


> I'll be storing them in bedroom closets... we keep the AC at about 86 when we're not home and 80 when we are. 86 is the warmest we can keep it and not get mildew problems. In the winter (and Houston is just as damp in the winter as it is humid in the summer) we just turn the heat off completely at night and away from home. In the two years that I've had my trains here, out and and set up on a layout, the tracks have rusted more than they did in the multiple decades up north.



80! Mine is set at -20 in the summer here up in Jersey.

Did you ever clean the track with sand paper at one time?
You might have took the protective layer off if you did.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Houston's humidity is worse than Florida's. I wouldn't dream of storing trains with the temp set to 86. You will not get the humidity low enough.

I have stored trains in my air conditioned house in Florida for years with the temp set at 76 or lower. I am not having trouble with them rusting or being damaged by humidity with two exceptions: I have a die cast box car from the '40s that has the ends swelling up, and I have a GG1 from Williams that is a TCA 25th anniversary set. Some of the trucks have a little corrosion on them. I haven't inspected the loco to see if there is other damage. I have a Lionel GG1 that is about 35 years old, stored in the same cabinet that does not show any damage. I also have some track with home made pins that are made from copper plated welding rod. The ends are bare steel. Last time I checked, they were not showing any corrosion.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There are "practical" ways to store them, but it's going to take a little effort.

If you really want them to remain dry and free of corrosion, I'd buy one of the plastic bag sealers they sell for freezer stuff. Put the silica gel in the correct amount in with the item(s) and hermetically seal the bag. As long as the plastic is a decent quality, that will keep them safe for years. There's nothing that will keep them safe forever. if you're trying to do that, just sell them.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

How about those vacuum bags that you take a 5' pile of clothes and after you suck the air out it is a 3" pile?
After you suck all the air out there will be no atmosphere to work on the metal.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They would have to be 100% air-tight, I have no idea if they are. In any case, you still need a sufficient quantity of a drying agent to bring the humidity level down and to keep it there for any residual leakage.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I'll say it again. The water will diffuse through the bag. Having a perfect seal is important but not sufficient to keep water out of the bag. Another example: Car air conditioners lose their refrigerant because it diffuses through the rubber hoses. The only thing you can make a hermetically sealed container is to make it out of metal and weld it shut. If you use an O ring seal, the water will diffuse through the O ring.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bruce, you'll note that I really agree with you. You can have extended time storage with the proper amount of drying agent, but it won't last forever. Using the proper materials, you'll get at least years of protection, but certainly not forever. Steel is good, but maybe not practical for the average Joe.


While car A/C loses it's charge, it takes it a long time, in the case of my Jaguar, it took it about 15 years.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

In our area, The Container Store has large totes sold as waterproof. They would probably be a good bet.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, "waterproof" and "hermetically sealed" are separated by a very wide margin! Your car is waterproof, but it's hardly hermetically sealed.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok one last thought for you guys to ponder. While this does not solve eternal storage. We all agree on a air tight as possable container and some sort of water absorbtion method. How about adding oxygen displacement to the mix. No oxygen no rust. Any thoughts. ?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you could keep the container full of dry nitrogen and keep a slight positive pressure inside, you could probably keep the water out forever. If you remember in years past, the telephone company used lead sheath cable and the wires inside used paper for insulation. It was imperative that they kept the water out, and so they pressurized the cable with dry nitrogen. It shouldn't take more than a psi or two above ambient to keep the water out.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, my experience with car air conditioners is that the compressor oil somehow leaves with the refrigerant, and that you should put about a half a can of oil in when you recharge the system. Otherwise, the AC shop probably is going to sell you a new compressor.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, since I don't recharge my A/C, that's not an issue. For the old Jag, I had to have the compressor upgraded anyway, the old Freon 12 is no longer going to be available, so they converted it to the 134.


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

*humidity proofing old track and trains*

I have been storing a lot of tubular O gauge track in a climate controlled storage locker for three years now. Shorter sections are in plastic totes whose lids are not a perfect seal. 40" pieces are wrapped in heavy plastic. Before I stored it, I cleaned all of the track as thoroughly as possible. After cleaning I sprayed it with a rust blocker (93692). I put a small rust prevention strip (91016) in each tote. http:www.theruststore.com/Bull-Frog-C22.aspx

Each year I check each package and put in a new rust strip (they last one year). The track has held up perfectly so far.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

With that kind of prep and environment, I have no doubt that the track would be OK!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Bill,

I'll be sending you my track for storage, too!

You've got quite the system!

TJ


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

*humidity proofing old track*

I wipe down track with a citris cleaner like goop. I clean track as needed with a bright boy, or use fine emery paper (sparingly) if necessary. Then apply the rust prevention.

The track is stored in the north at a climate controlled public storage locker. Heated in the winter and cooled in the summer. Opened many of the totes holding the trains recently and all was well. 

Track and train also has silicon gel packs. 

Bill


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, in years past, I changed many ACs to R-134A. I put in a can of polyolester oil with an O ring conditioner and filled up the system with R-134A. No change to the compressor or anything else. I never opened up the system. These worked for years.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I only changed the compressor on the Jag because it croaked, and they wouldn't fix it without the changeover.


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## ShockControl (Feb 17, 2009)

I am going to be storing a large amount of rolling stock, track, and scenery in large plastic tubs in a shed. I am keeping my engines and electrical equipment in a climate controlled environment, but everything else will be in tubs in the shed.

It can get pretty hot in the summer and not too cold in the winter. (I live in the U.S. south.)

So how much silica gel is recommended for either the 27 quart/26 litre or 5.6 quart or 52.9 litre plastic containers?

EDIT: I see that this in in the O gauge forum; I have HO, but I guess in principle it is all the same.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The problem is that the plastic is porous and the humidity will diffuse through it. You will have to change the silica gel periodically. I suggest you put a humidity sensor in the plastic tubs.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've never seen a plastic tub that is airtight, so there really isn't any way that the desiccant will last for any significant length of time. It's only effective in a sealed container.

The small packets included in new train boxes are just a placebo, they're not nearly enough to actually do significant good.


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## erkenbrand (Dec 6, 2010)

There are the large silica containers they sell for gun safes / fire proof safes that may help. Those are reusable. Over time they suck up all the moisture they can, and then you pop them in your oven for a few hours to dry back out.

But, they are made for sealed environments, and, as GRJ said, they probably won't last for any significant amount of time in plastic bins.


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## ShockControl (Feb 17, 2009)

I should add at this point that I have been storing the trains and accessories, wrapped in bubble wrap, in the boxes (if I have them) and in the plastic containers in the shed for some time. I no longer have a layout and take them out only at Christmas. I have never noticed a problem, but because I keep buying new stuff, some things have been stored for more years than others. I have never had any problems, functionally or aesthetically. I do keep the engines and other electrical pieces inside.


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