# Thoughts About the New Lionel Brass Hybrid 4-4-0s



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I looked at the seventeen minute long Facebook video, and studied the 4-4-0 American page Lionel put on their website. Interesting. 

All these locos and the cars are VERY much like the Lincoln Funeral Train loco - same size and look like many of the same parts (and the very same tender - no doubt there). 

The passenger cars all look like derivatives/variations on the cars for the Lincoln Funeral Train. Major difference is this has Legacy installed - whereas the LFT loco had a F-R switch and no electronics at all. 

Like that loco, these locos have no sound. You have to get a sound car. I'd be concerned about the Legacy board in the tiny tender, too: I recall the problems I had with my three TMCC equipped track inspection vehicles. All three boards overheated and died. Never got them fixed - why, they would just overheat and die again. 

Below you see my LFT engine before and after I repainted it in "19th century basic black" and got rid of the big cinder-trap stack. I bought a set of six LFT passenger cars, removed the funeral bunting and repainted them, adding "normal" interiors, including making two sleepers and a lounge car and diner (not sure they had them back then, but I do) and converting one to a baggage car. I made one freight (covered load of flatcar) and one passenger car that have sound.

I'm going to pass on these latest: a combination of price, similarity to what I have now, and concerns about quality are my reasons. I would be much more likely to buy if: 1) the two Golden spike versions came with a train of cars like those used during the building of the track - worker dorms and food car, equipment cars, etc. But anyway. I would really like to find a few nice 1880-ish steam locos, but these aren't them.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I found this photo, which makes the point about just how tiny (and delicate) these locos are. They don't weigh much and they don't pull but three or four cars even on level track.


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## Guest (May 10, 2019)

Absolutely not interested in this latest offering. I take a big pass.

Thanks for your observations, Lee. Much appreciated.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Looks like these locos are more for the display case and not the layout.

Bill


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

I have no interest in these either; however, as you already stated Lee, quality has to be a concern for anyone that may have interest. It's all new tooling which can have problems. No sound or smoke in the engine will cause some to say no immediately. 

It looks like for dealers offering these for preorder there is no discounted pricing. The price is the same across the board weather you order it directly from Lionel or a dealer. 

It will be interesting to see if Lionel will get enough orders on these to have them manufactured. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Charles Ro just posted on OGR to call for pre order pricing. 
In the past Lionel told dealers MAP price was no lower than 10% off but last catalog said dealers could sell for any price as long as the price didn't appear in public print, in other words price given over phones or in person. 

Pete


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

sorry I cannot justify the high price of them. I also have an mth version it moves so slow an ant can outrun it. but to each there own.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Lee Willis said:


> They don't weigh much and they don't pull but three or four cars even on level track.


To be fair, the real ones only weighed probably between 25 tons and 35 tons. Three or four passenger cars are probably about all the real thing could handle. I work on a 25 ton 4-4-0 at work and it can really only handle around four of our open tourist cars without a lot of grief.


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## JoeSaggese (Aug 17, 2018)

I love 4-4-0s. Unfortunately after reading to many instances where preordering turns into a nightmare I'll pass.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

They look nice but $2200 nice for the two engines, I think not.

Dave


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

at least it does not cost as much as the lgb set.

https://www.lgb.com/fileadmin/media/lgb/Nord_Amerika/Prospekt_Golden_Spike_EN_Online.pdf

$9999.99


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I guess folks will buy them, but not me.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

I think lots of enthusiasts will be disappointed at how small these 4-4-0 scale locomotives will be in-person. For $1,099 it's just a terrible price/performer. So I'll pass without even thinking twice about it.

Better to shop around for an MTH Climax logging locomotive, if you're in the mood for a little jewel of a steamer. You can do MUCH better on street-pricing too -- well below the $750 price-point.... not to mention that those Climaxes are quite a unique locomotive.

But each to their own.

David


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## Guest (May 11, 2019)

Lee, thanks for your insight into these new offerings. One rhetorical question, I'm not expecting an answer, if sound and DCC can be put into N scale engines why can't these locos come with these features? HO locos are smaller than these locos and not only have sound and DCC but also smoke. If an HO diesel has room for sound, DCC and smoke why are these locos too small for these features?

I won't be ordering any of these for a few reasons. First, I don't pre-order. Second, I don't think there is any toy train that is worth $1000. Third, I have no confidence in Lionel's quality control. And finally, I have no interest in these trains.

So, for me, this big announcement is :smilie_daumenneg:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

MTH has done both the Jupiter and 119 many times. Even in Railking they have smoke and sound. List price on the pair is less than a single Lionel engine. The tender is oversize but not sure many would care. They would still make a colorful display piece.

Pete


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

A "General" is on my list of trains that I want eventually but not this one. It will be a railking version.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

No go here. I’ll buy the stamps at the Post Office and look at them instead of the high prices little models that have NO SOUND.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have an MTH General, and these don't really interest me. First off, they're not running with the real Legacy electronics, they're using the BEMF module (aka ERR Cruise Commander). Remember the grumbling about the BEMF module with the LionMaster Class A, and keep that in mind.  After that fiasco, Lionel brass assured us that they'd never use the BEMF module in any Legacy offering again. So much for that promise!

For the price, I can't imagine why they can't have smoke and sound. MTH manages to get smoke and sound into their HO offerings, surely these aren't smaller than an HO locomotive!

This is all about capitalizing on the Golden Spike Anniversary, but it's a miss IMO.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Spence said:


> A "General" is on my list of trains that I want eventually but not this one. It will be a railking version.


I have 5 or 6 General locomotives, 1 MTH diecast and the remainder are Lionel plastic. The problem with General type locomotives is that they are really like a fish out of water when running on the layout. Unless you designed your layout for the 1800's or very early 1900's nothing on the layout fits into that era.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's why I just have one. It's cool as a conversation piece, but it doesn't fit into my era.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Negativity galore, bad vibes around. While these are interesting and the the 19th century is under represented. I hope these are a success. Don’t think Lionel will go to the well again if these are a failure, second year in a row after they picked the K2 that didn’t get reservations.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That's why I just have one. It's cool as a conversation piece, but it doesn't fit into my era.


Yep, Generals running past my NASA space center just does not compute to any degree of reality.

Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

seayakbill said:


> Yep, Generals running past my NASA space center just does not compute to any degree of reality.
> 
> Bill


That is a hilarious image, seayakbill, and part of the problem with these locos that many model railroaders have: not much else that is mid-late 19th century. I struggle with that too, when I try to set up my layout for the late 1800s.
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superwarp1 said:


> Negativity galore, bad vibes around. While these are interesting and the the 19th century is under represented. I hope these are a success. Don’t think Lionel will go to the well again if these are a failure, second year in a row after they picked the K2 that didn’t get reservations.



I looked up the pricing of the Lincoln Funeral Train (2013 catalog). That loco, tender, and cars are very nearly identical to these golden spike offerings. The LFT loco and its special eight axle casket car were priced at $1140, and a two car add-onset of normal passenger cars (with funeral bunting) was $300. 

Assuming that casket car was worth $200, that means the loco+tender cost about $940. So the current prices are, respectively, 16.6 and 17% more than Lionel listed the LFT trains for in its 2013 catalog. Six years --> 17% price increases not quite 3% a year. Not unreasonable. 

What worries me is that this offering seems mighty ambitious for a company that has shown it has "bandwidth" problems managing complex offerings well (e.g., its quality issues, the failed hybrid). This time, they are offering EIGHT loco offerings, if you count the two-loco set, each of those offered individually, each offered as an unpainted pilot, and then the Leviathan, York, and PRR versions. And FIVE different two-car sets. A total of 13 new, very special, very high-priced products.

That said, I think it likely Lionel will end up thinking this is a success: in that it will make them money. The LFT apparently was, and this is really just more of the same and all BTO, so it is hard for them to fail to make money on it. Whether buyers like what they get - that will be an entirely different matter. The LFT loco is okay - quaiity assembly and detail and paint, but delicate, nice looking but really only a display model (won't pull much, no sound or smoke). The passenger cars, are frankly, not that great. I bought seven and have taken apparent, repainted, and installed interiors in six of them. I was not that impressed. Not really poor products, but no great shakes - they struck me as way overpriced at $150/each in 2013 - I bought them because there were no other really good scale 1800 century cars available. There still aren't, so if you want some you have little other choice, but I think the quality will disappoint some, considering the price.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Negativity galore, bad vibes around. While these are interesting and the the 19th century is under represented. I hope these are a success. Don’t think Lionel will go to the well again if these are a failure, second year in a row after they picked the K2 that didn’t get reservations.


Even though, I have no interest in these engines, I hope Lionel does well on these for the sake of future engine offerings. I think you are corect in saying that if this offering is failure for Lionel there might not be any future Hybrid engines. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Guest (May 12, 2019)

seayakbill said:


> Yep, Generals running past my NASA space center just does not compute to any degree of reality.
> 
> Bill


The General, or any old time locomotive, can run as an excursion train. Something old can fit into a later era but something modern could never work in an earlier period.

When I was a teenager there was an old fella who drove Model A or a Model T, I don't remember which. He had bought the car 40+ years earlier and still drove it in the 1960s.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I was thinking a bit more about these engines. The price, I think is initially shocking but then SMR engines are way more than double the price. I am sure if 3rd Rail did these it would be at least as much. Their last 0-6-0 cost over 1500 bucks.

It sounds like Lionel wants to make them as detailed as possible. A die cast boiler without added details can match a brass boiler before the detals are added.
I believe also there are many who could add a smoke unit to them maybe even one commercially available like one for HO. If not they are simple devices that could be fabricated to fit.

I don't need any more engines nor projects but am intrigued by the challenge.

BTW thanks to HG Wells and his time machine the NYC was able to celebrate its own titatium spike ceremony. 999 in its former livery was able to meet is present day self. Likewise discovered in an old warehouse a J3a Hudson meets up with a K5 Pacific.











Pete


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Norton said:


> I was thinking a bit more about these engines. The price, I think is initially shocking but then SMR engines are way more than double the price. I am sure if 3rd Rail did these it would be at least as much. Their last 0-6-0 cost over 1500 bucks.
> 
> Pete


When compared to the brands you mentioned, these seem a little more intriguing. I believe the SMR engines only had manual forward/reverse capabilities as well for such a high price. Older DC only Brass HO scale models regularly sell for more than I've paid for most O gauge command locomotives. Lionel did a pretty nice job with the brass Mikado they did a few years ago.

Seeing as I work on 19th century steam locomotives, I'm still on the fence about these. I've got my eye on the Jupiter as I've always sort of liked that color scheme. It would by far be the most expensive locomotive I'd ever purchased if I do go for it.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Jake, I am guessing you work at the Henry Ford Museum?
You may want to give Charles Ro a call. He is the only one who posted so far that you have to contact them to get their price. I haven't seen anyone else imply a lower price though some may.

Pete


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Norton said:


> Jake, I am guessing you work at the Henry Ford Museum?
> You may want to give Charles Ro a call. He is the only one who posted so far that you have to contact them to get their price. I haven't seen anyone else imply a lower price though some may.
> 
> Pete


I do indeed. I’m considering calling them tomorrow about the price since I haven’t seen anybody else with a similar lower price hint. If done well these will be pretty neat locomotives. I saw mention in the preview video they did that the Stephenson valve gear will actually move, which I don’t believe I’ve seen in o gauge in more than a couple locomotives.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I couldn’t care less. 

I am not interested in having this set, or engines from this time period. If I was I would be turned off that the engines have no smoke or sound, unless I planned on just displaying them on a shelf, but I am sure shelf queens can be had much cheaper.

Plus, with all the screwups from Lionel over the last few years, they are off my buy list for now.

Not sure who this set is for.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Craignor said:


> I couldn’t care less.
> 
> I am not interested in having this set, or engines from this time period. If I was I would be turned off that the engines have no smoke or sound, unless I planned on just displaying them on a shelf, but I am sure shelf queens can be had much cheaper.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of the above. But I am convinced, rightly or wrongly, that Lionel thinks there's a market for these engines as what GRJ has described as "conversation pieces" or display items. I think there are quite a few people who buy engines, unbox them, run them around the track a few times and then either put them on display or back in the box. I've met a few collectors of 2 rail fine scale stuff who never even unbox it. (But they can tell you its got Worthington this or that and many rivets.)

Anyway, having seen Norton's nice photos I thought I'd share these, which are of no more than conversation pieces in a part of a display cabinet devoted to the Civil War period. Behind, a scale (not O) model of the Union ironclad Monitor, with a cutaway of the turret to show the cannons, and in front O scale models of the Texas and the General, which were involved in the Great Locomotive Chase of 1862:









I got these many years ago from SMR, which as I believe I have said on another thread was forced out of business because of inability to maintain a bank credit line after some mindless federal bank regulation laws were introduced. They are O scale 3 rail. No sound in the engines; there is a sound set in a trailing boxcar. Below them is a JLC GG1 and an MTH Little Joe, which gives some idea of the tiny size of these models. Each loco is about 7.5" long, each tender 4.5".

I can't match Norton's nose-to-nose snapshot but here's each one:
















I think that these were made at different times and the General has a plastic wood load on the tender whereas the Texas has real, er, twigs. Each has a Seuthe smoke unit in the stack but I have never used them. 

Lionel's hybrid models are definitely not for me - I have my 19th century locos and absolutely no interest in expanding into something more. I do wish Lionel well in this effort but having got hooked on command control models with many operating features I really don't see the point of models that lack play value. And above all else Lionel's recent QC history leaves me cold.

But I did succumb to these display pieces. A long time ago.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

It's pretty obvious these are not for everyone. I do think they'll do ok with these. I understand the smoke and sound issue folks are having but if you look at the comparison Dave did between the standard issue General and this one size wise it does present, at least to my eyes, a problem of getting all that into the space available.










I also do not think the BMF in this engine will hurt it either. It's doubtful any of these will me MU'd and some software tweaks could help the speed curve.

I'm sure Lionel is fully aware of their recent issues. I suspect they know they'll be put to task on any issues with these as well. 

For now, they are not my cup of tea either but I hope they have a success here. I'd rather see them succeed then hope for their demise.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

BEMF will run together with engines of the same wheel diameter and gear ratio so if you you get more than one if the 4-4-0s they will run together. BEMF is just a Cruise M in a different package that reads Legacy code as well as TMCC.
H.B.'s pics show that scale doesn't really matter for display pieces. They are scale but just not 1/48. Likely the only ones who may be aware of the fact they are not 1/48 are you and few train guys who model 19th Century.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> BEMF will run together with engines of the same wheel diameter and gear ratio so if you you get more than one if the 4-4-0s they will run together. BEMF is just a Cruise M in a different package that reads Legacy code as well as TMCC.
> H.B.'s pics show that scale doesn't really matter for display pieces. They are scale but just not 1/48. Likely the only ones who may be aware of the fact they are not 1/48 are you and few train guys who model 19th Century.
> 
> Pete


Long as the firmware is done right, unlike that last batch of 0-8-0 switchers that go warp speed after a quarter turn of the big red knob


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Nice that we can discuss this offering freely on MTF, without being shouted down and quickly deleted.:loser:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The issue with the BEMF is that it's not compatible with the rest of the Legacy stuff if you do a lash-up. Of course, with these, you're not likely to be doing that anyway. Like Gary says, the last couple of outings of the BEMF module were not all that stellar, hopefully they did a better job with the firmware. However, not that Jon Z. is no longer there, I wonder how the software will be...

I bear no malice toward people that buy these, I'm sure they'll be a neat looking set. I just think they're overpriced for what you get.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Craignor said:


> I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.


The PS3 versions of NYC 999 4-4-0 list at 700 bucks. Street price closer to 600. It has everything except whiste steam. No doubt the 1860 engines are smaller but MTH already has HO smoke units. The PS3 electronics do not fill the tender. Its pretty small already but could be smaller assuming the 1860 tenders are smaller than this one.

Pete


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

Norton said:


> The PS3 versions of NYC 999 4-4-0 list at 700 bucks. Street price closer to 600. It has everything except whiste steam. No doubt the 1860 engines are smaller but MTH already has HO smoke units. The PS3 electronics do not bfill the tender. Its pretty small already but could be smaller assuming the 1860 tenders are smaller than this one.
> 
> Pete


Pete,

Thanks, it’s good to know MTH could do it....I guess it’s just a matter of there being enough of a market to make money selling 19th century locos.

Maybe MTH is watching Lionel and seeing how they do with this offering.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think it would be a lot easier for MTH to do the scale model than Lionel. Of course, Lionel could do it if they really wanted to, but I suspect they think they'll make money taking the shortcut.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think it would be a lot easier for MTH to do the scale model than Lionel. Of course, Lionel could do it if they really wanted to, but I suspect they think they'll make money taking the shortcut.


1) I'd really love to have an MTH model(s) of locos and rolling stock from the 1875 to 1890 period. They would be awesome, I know. 

2) There were some really interesting locos made in that period. The Americans (4-4-0) were actually some of the least interesting - they are iconic, and I'd buy a few because of that, but some of the 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s and other locos made back then - particularly in the period when the industry went from wood to coal, were far more interesting. Those, and some good rolling stock. I'd probably stock up a whole lot on the last quarter of the 19th century, if MTH built it.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just to add another data point. Bachmann makes On30 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s with DCC w/o sound for 150 bucks. Their sound module is around 80 bucks. The 4-4-0 actually looks smaller than Lionel's proposed models. I don't know much about them. I think they are plastic but must have some weight to them if they are able to pull a few cars. The chasm seems very wide between 150 bucks and 1100 bucks.

Pete


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

MTH has actually been making 19th century locos for years:

http://mthtrains.com/20-3595-1

I might be a buyer if they would lose the “wireless tether”


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Craignor said:


> MTH has actually been making 19th century locos for years:
> 
> http://mthtrains.com/20-3595-1
> 
> I might be a buyer if they would lose the “wireless tether”


I have both of the small locos they make and love them. I'd buy more, too, only if . . . they made more.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

It's really a stretch calling this a brass hybrid. Most of it is die cast. There will be later offerings with this mold for sure, at lower price points. I'm not into the 1800s all that much, but hey, some other RR guys really dig it.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Volphin said:


> It's really a stretch calling this a brass hybrid. Most of it is die cast. There will be later offerings with this mold for sure, at lower price points. I'm not into the 1800s all that much, but hey, some other RR guys really dig it.


Well, yes, except I understand much of the brass is cast, so . . .

anyway, I think we know about what it is . . . or will be. Sort of. Kinda. Maybe.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I ordered the full set from Lionel today as well as the two packs with sound for both locomotives from Charles Ro. While feature-wise they're probably not worth the money, when compared to older HO scale brass locomotives of a similar style which are selling at half the cost I don't think they're too terrible. They're definitely the most expensive train items I've ever purchased, but I look forward to owning model locomotives from the same era as the full size locomotives I work on. A pretty tough thing to find in 3 rail O gauge.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Norton said:


> Just to add another data point. Bachmann makes On30 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, 2-8-0s with DCC w/o sound for 150 bucks. Their sound module is around 80 bucks. The 4-4-0 actually looks smaller than Lionel's proposed models. I don't know much about them. I think they are plastic but must have some weight to them if they are able to pull a few cars. The chasm seems very wide between 150 bucks and 1100 bucks.
> 
> Pete


The Bachmann On30 locomotives probably are pretty similar in size, but are mostly plastic as you mentioned. They look nice, but are built similarly to their HO scale products. Again, most of the electronics come straight from their HO line which is something Lionel currently isn't a huge manufacturer of. If they were to spend the time engineering the smaller electronics, the price on these probably would have been far greater.


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