# Passenger Operations in a Spare Bedroom - Critiques Requested



## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Here are some incompatible objectives - big HO scale passenger operations in a room 11x13 feet. But, that's exactly the problem I've been trying to solve for the last few weeks. 

Below is the track plan I've come up with. Besides my objective of having big passenger operations (long passenger trains, at least 7 or 8 cars at a minimum, as well as a big station throat), I also wanted to have at lest a respectable mainline run. I don't want to just have a big station running straight into staging. I'd also like at least a respectable coach yard, with some mail and REA switching as well. I have also included a train elevator (in the upper left) in order to allow me to run trains to staging. The setting is transition-era, so there would be both heavyweight and lightweight cars and steam locomotives.









The size of each square is about 8 inches.

I can already see some problems with it, of course. Notably, I only have two other stations besides the 'big one' which sort of limits my ability for passenger operations beside the large station. The main way this can be solved is by getting rid, or making smaller, the coach yard and/or the engine servicing facility.

What do you guys think? Do you see any problems with this plan that I've missed? Do you have any potential improvements?

One question I have is the necessity of a wye. I know that it's necessary for observation cars to be turned round, but will the length of the tail track (about 3 feet in this case) be a problem for doing so?


Thanks for any replies,

Dreadnought


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## 1905dave (Sep 18, 2016)

Scale?


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

HO, sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## 1905dave (Sep 18, 2016)

Wow, I was certain it was N scale. You have way too much track and way too short of tracks for what you want. many of the stub end tracks look to be only 2 cars long. Some of the curves are 16", maybe 18" radius. A number 6 switch in HO is about a foot long, some place you have drawn 2 switches in a foot.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Yeah, I suppose so. I usually draw at a slightly larger scale than I did here so I was probably trying to attempt too much in too little space. I'll definitely have to scale it back. Thanks, dave.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You may have to go back to the drawing board.
As noted, I don't think you can get all that track
on the space you have to work with.

An important factor to keep in mind when running
passenger trains is the length of the cars. The old
heavy weights were generally 80 feet long. So were
some of the streamliners of that era. This places a
heavy demand for curves of at least 22" radius preferably
greater. Not only would there be likely derailing on curves, but
the car ends jut away from the track and don't look 
good on tight radius curves.

I have a 'spare bedroom' size HO layout, also with
a peninsula such as yours. Your room appears to
be about the same size as mine. The aisles are not
of comfortable width. It appears you will have to do
as I, sidle into and out of the narrow one.

Like your plans, my single track main line follows the
walls around. That means you will need a 'lift or swing
out' bridge to afford access to the inner aisles. Mine
is a crawl under. It is awkward to use. Plan on a
movable bridge.

I agree that you would want the ability to turn around
locos and observation cars. But I fear the tight radius
of your WYE won't serve well.

You probably will need to limit your 'Grand Station' to
only 3 or 4 tracks. I had to cut back to only 2.
But even with that limit you still would have plenty
of switching opportunity for RPOs, REA, and other
servicing areas. You ample yards and spurs make
that possible.

I'm not at all sure what to make of the 'NOOSE' in
the middle of the peninsula. Is that where you
plan to HANG OUT? 

Don


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Very funny, Don! That's supposed to be a curved backdrop, but I can see the resemblance now!

Here's my first revision. The biggest difference is probably that I'm going to make this a double-deck layout in order to allow me to have some good mainline running in addition to terminal switching. This will be accomplished through a helix. I've tried my best to allow enough space for the helix in the drawing below, but I must admit I'm not at all sure that the size provided is large enough for a double-track helix. 










I haven't drawn the second deck yet, as it will be relatively simple in comparison to the bottom deck, at least in track layout. Basically, for that level, there will be several smaller stations, as well as a medium-sized station that will act as a junction for a branchline. This area will allow more express operations, as well as diner, coach and sleeper set-outs and pick-ups, another operation I enjoy. There will also be some more room for freight operations, which are relatively neglected on the bottom deck (there is some relatively empty space that might be able to accommodate an industry or two, but freight will be a secondary operation on this layout). I might try to accommodate a small freight yard on that level, as well. 

Further, I eliminated the turntable and roundhouse in this plan. Rather, engines will be turned on the wye and go to the small engine servicing facility that is adjacent to the coach yard. It only has minimal capacity for inspection, refueling, water, etc. as well as an outbound engine track, and a middle track for removing ash and resupplying the coaling tower.

I tried to draw the turnouts and turns better on this revision. Most of the turnouts are No. 6 or the curved turnout equivalent, with a few No. 8s as well. Every square on this plan is one foot, which is the scale I'm more used to drawing in. 

The 'big' station is about the same size as above, but I drew it at a rather bad angle meaning that it cannot accommodate very long trains as drawn. That will be a relatively simple fix, requiring only an adjustment of the angle at which the tracks are at. I'm trying to aim for at least seven or eight car trains on most of the tracks. 

I have retained the train elevator in the top left. It is about 5 feet in length, so it may not be able to handle complete trains all at once, but the operational capacity is adds is worth it in my opinion.

What do you guys think of this revision? I will add the second level when I get the time. Sorry for the rather poor image, I'm traveling at the moment so it is difficult to take a good quality image.

Dreadnought


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

If you can you should try downloading SCRAM software, it's free and pretty easy to use. 
You can learn to use it in the time it takes you to draw one of those plans.
Just use sectional track and it will give you a much better idea of what will fit in that room.
Big locos and long passenger cars need big radius curves, 22" or bigger, the bigger the better.

If that's the door on the lower left I think I would flip the plan over and have the big yard on the other side.
You'll want a minimum of track at the door if you use a movable bridge, Which I would recommend. 
Having to duck under every time you need to enter or leave the train room gets old in a hurry.

My layout is in a 13x13 room and you can get quite a bit of RR in it. 
Some track planning software will help get the most out of the room you have and it should run as expected.

Good luck with whatever you do, looks like an interesting plan you're working on.
Magic


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## Eusjim (Dec 16, 2014)

Looks crowded. How will you walk in the aisles? Also, consider reach. Don't think the lower right hand corner to be reachable. Try some mock ups for reachability and walk thru. Also, get some software. I use railroader pro. A year ago I moved from HO to N to get what I wanted in my constrained space. In HO I even tried a pop up door, an I see you have a small access hole, but was no fun moving/crawling about. You have some great ideas, but going to be short trains.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The helix seems to be a very tight radius. That
combined with the slope will make it difficult for a
loco to pull a train of likely 3 axle truck passenger
cars. See if you can expand the radius to be at
least 22". You might also want to consider making
it a single track. That would afford a little more
space for wider radius.

The same with the lower left curve of the Wye. It would
be difficult for any loco or 80 ft passenger car to
negotiate.

One suggestion that might help you with the radius
work, get a couple 3 ft pieces of flex track. You can
then manipulate it to match what you want to do in
the space you have. That way you can easily tell
if your locos and cars will work on it.

Don


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Any chance you could rehang that door to swing out instead of in?
An around the walls layout would allow for broader curves. You could make the tables 24" deep, and perhaps have a gradual climb to the second level.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Could you remove the door or,though more work,turn it around so that it opens in the other room?That would improve your useable space.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I was reminded of an interesting option this morning: pocket doors and barn doors. A pocket door slides into the wall, a barn door slides on a track parallel to the wall. If you can install a steel or aluminum rail level on a wall, you can convert to a barn door.


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## Eusjim (Dec 16, 2014)

Sounds like a good idea.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks for all the responses! It really means a lot. I should probably clarify my philosophy behind this particular design at this point though.

I am not currently living at the location where I will be building this layout. I will be moving into a new apartment in about a year and a half, which is where I will build this layout. Unfortunately, I am not 100% sure _where_ that apartment will be, and, therefore, I do not have the floorplan on hand for me to design a layout around.

Looking at the likely candidates for the move leaves me with the impression that the absolute worst-case scenario in terms of space for this layout will be an approximately 11x13 room with a 3-foot door that opens onto the inside. Since I will only be renting the apartment, I am not sure what the landlord will think about me reversing his door. I may remove it but that may cause other problems, such as my dog wanting to go into that room - dust is a big enough problem, never mind fur! I may find a better solution, of course, if that happens to occur, but, as of now, I will be planning for having to incorporate an inward-swinging door into the plan.

Of course, it would be great to find a place with a larger spare room for me to build the layout in. A few places also have closets in the spare rooms, which would make a good place to put the tail track of the wye or something like that.

Therefore, for this plan, I'm using the smallest possible space I can and trying to see what I can cram in. Already it seems I can at least have a terminal and a big coach yard, which are already major pluses. The major sticking points right now seem to be curves, especially on the wye in the coach yard, access (I'm a pretty tall guy but I've never worked on a double-deck layout so it will probably be a bigger problem then I'm supposing it will be) and crew space. I want to be able to run small operating sessions on this layout, but that's going to be a big problem with the access I have in the plan right now. I figure a layout of this size with the type of operations I'm planning will be able to occupy upwards of five or six people running trains: a station pilot to jostle around the coaches and switch the express tracks, someone to run 'foreign' roads (since I plan it to be a 'union' station there will be foreign power on the road, coming from staging below the layout), a person to run the hot-shot limited, a person or two to run the locals and commuter trains, and a person or two for freight operations. Obviously, fitting 6-8 people in a bedroom not crowded by a double-deck layout is already a challenge. The dispatcher will definitely have to be in another room. Therefore, the next revisions of this plan will probably try to make the aisles wider. I'm designing this layout for operation above all else, but I can already see the problems that it's going to cause in the space I'm providing for it. 

What I'm thinking for the next revision is to flip the whole thing 180 degrees with relation to the room, so that the wye will be in the position the elevator currently occupies. This will allow the wye to extend into a closet if one exists (since they are typically around that area), but, if nothing else, it will allow me a bit more space for the wye since the radius is giving me problems. 

I've downloaded SCARM but it's quite a lot to figure out. Currently I'm trying to see how much space I can put the wye in, since it's my biggest 'problem area'. Here's what I've got currently, with no. 6 turnouts and a radius of at least 23":









The 64" question: how much space does it fit in?

Well, it's about 5 feet wide and 7 feet long. That means I'll have to do some major redesigning on the coach yard since, if the wye is put in its current place, the coach yard will have to be pushed out into the aisle, which is already narrow enough. 

I'll try and put up a redesign as soon as I can, I've just returned to my main computer from traveling.

Thanks again for all the responses! 

Dreadnought


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## 1905dave (Sep 18, 2016)

Neither of your plans have any chance of fitting in HO scale. For 80' passenger cars you need 24" radius and #6 switches. A 7 car train with 2 units is about 8 ft long (or longer). A number 6 switch is a foot long. A single track that can hold 1 train is about 10 ft long. Put a 24" curve on either end and you have 14 ft. That means you don't have enough room to put a single siding long enough to hold a train along your longest wall. Any track that has to hold a train will have to go around a corner of the room.

A helix will have to be at least about 24" radius (about 2.6 %) and just under 5 ft in diameter (including the second track and clearance around the tracks). The room is only 10 ft wide. The helix will take up one half the width of the room and over a third the length. A HUGE foot print in that room. 

If you want two levels then forget about a peninsula, you will need wider aisles to see the lower level or really narrow shelves (8-12").


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Dave, thanks for the critique. You will notice, though, that none of the really lengthy tracks on my plan are flat against the wall, providing just a little bit extra room that might allow me to run trains of that length. This is true for both the big station and the coach yard, though it only really matters in the station. I will have to adjust the plan for the size of the helix, and, after that, see if I can still have a peninsula. I may not be able to, but if it means having two levels then I'm glad to give it up. The peninsula isn't a necessary part of the plan. Hopefully, if I have a closet available, I can stick the helix in there.

I will say that the 7-8 car trains will be the maximum length of train so most trains will not be that length. That will just be the maximum length that I would like. I'm willing to get rid of a few cars if it means better operations, but I feel like I can make it fit. We'll just have to see.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

After fiddling around in SCARM, I drew up the latest revision by hand. Here it is:









The first difference is that I decided to get rid of the wye and replace it with a reversing loop. The main reason for this was the problems with the wye's tail tracks: they take up too much space, and it's quite difficult to bend them around corners. Since the yard has been flipped to the other side of the room in this plan, the reversing loop can be installed more easily. Further, it allows a good access hole in the middle to get at the other side of the coach yard.

I've added a small storage area and a commissary spur near the storage hatch as well. The reversing loop is also to be used for engine movements, and the engine servicing area has been moved between the reversing loop and the station. The station is in relatively the same spot as in earlier renditions, but the tracks are now longer. From my calculations, the longest track has a usable platform length of 7 feet. This can accommodate a 7 car train of 80 foot cars (on the platform) with some room to spare, and, since trains aren't made of purely 80 foot cars, it is a very comfortable length with relation to train size, in my opinion. The shorter tracks can, naturally, only handle shorter trains. 

Another major change was moving the helix out of the room entirely. My plan here is to have lift-out sections that can be placed in to allow tracks to extend out of the room to a closet across the hall, or something similar, and put the helix in there. Either that, or expand the layout into another room, or something of that manner. The important part is that those tracks that lead out of the room go to the rest of the layout.

The bridge going from the big station to the loop which leads to the helix will be a lift-out or a swing gate. This will make access to the layout a lot easier (thanks for the advice, Magic!).

The train elevator has been retained and lengthened to six feet, as has the peninsula, though the peninsula has been designed to accommodate multi-deck operation. The area with the dotted line will have the ability to fold down out of the way if major operations are going on the second deck, allowing quite a lot of space in the middle of the room for operations on that deck. The second deck will probably have an equivalent space above it. On the peninsula is a very small branch line that exits from the main in the bottom right. There will probably be an industrial switching area there for some freight activity, as well as a small passenger train. This will allow there to be a place for locals and commuter trains to originate from and a place to setout coaches for at the big station.

What do you guys think? Compared to my previous renditions, I feel this one is pretty sound. I can already tell that the helix-out-of-the-room idea is a bit unusual, but I feel like it can work fine especially if the helix is on castors or something like that so it can be moved into and out of position. The only problems will be having to make those long lift-out portions to reach it, but that shouldn't be too difficult.

Besides that, the curves (especially the reversing loop) are drawn a lot better in this one, in my opinion, thanks to the help of SCARM. I've tried to improve the access situation as much as I can by providing at least good-sized access holes in problem areas, as well as making the aisles a lot wider to allow for multiple operators. With the peninsula folded down, the main aisle will be more than five feet wide at its widest point, which is quite good for a bedroom-sized layout. 


Dreadnought


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Dreadnought. It's a good looking plan, and it MIGHT work, but my chief concern right now would be that the freehand drawing has allowed you to fudge just enough, and things probably won't work in reality as well as you've drawn them. In particular, I think you have some curves of non-uniform radius, and aisles that will be impossibly skinny (maybe 18" in spots), and that the helix, with it's support structure won't work as you've drawn.

It really doesn't matter how wide you can get the aisles or where you can move the helix when you're NOT operating. Do you really think a layout plan where you have to sidle out of the room to turn around and watch your train run on the opposite side is going last long without frustrating the heck out of you? Never mind not being able to back up enough to see the lower level.

While your optimism and ingenuity is a great thing, I still think it's going to have a rough and heartbreaking encounter with reality. Don't let that stop you, though, just prepare yourself for the fact that you may have to scale back your dreams significantly. 

After you've been doing this for a while, you develop a feel for what fits in a given space and what doesn't, and my gut tells me you're headed for trouble. What I would encourage you to do is figure out SCARM and convert your concept plan into a detailed one where the software won't allow you to fudge. See if it really does work as you imagine. If it does, that's awesome, but be prepared to make some cutbacks.

As far as the door goes, i didn't realize you'd be renting. Take the door off, and buy a baby gate which fits in the door frame to keep the dog out.


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## 1905dave (Sep 18, 2016)

As long as you are building it in N scale you will be OK. If you are building it in HO you will never get passenger trains around either of those loops, if you are still using the 8" to a square, the loops appear to only be in 16 to 18 inch radius range.

On the yard that runs diagonally across the room, it is about 8 tracks wide, that's at least 18", you have it drawn in about 10" (and that assumes no platforms). At the top end of that yard is a route that has 5 switches in it and you have drawn it in about 40", while in reality it will be at least 60" long.

Just for giggles, but a L and R hand switch of your preferred brand and a couple pieces of flex track. You might even want to buy a circle of 22" radius sectional track. Make photo copies of the switches, then cut out the photo copies.

Then in a room in your house mark off a 10 ft wide area using masking tape. Assemble the 22 in radius curve and lay it on the floor, see how big it is in relationship to the width of the room. Use the switch templates to lay out some of the switch arrangements and see how long they are.

You will find you have room for about 2/3 to 1/2 the track you have drawn.

The helix on casters is an interesting idea, just remember that a helix will be about 50" wide (assuming there is no structural supports on the outside), a standard door is 30" wide and "wide" door is 36". Hallways are in the 36-48" wide range. While you can roll it around, it will be trapped in whatever room its in and can't be placed in a hallway.

Reality sucks, doesn't it?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Good point about N scale --- Being an HO guy, my brain just defaults to that naturally. Moving to N would alleviate many of the issues. Aisles would still be a huge concern, though.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks for the interest, guys. This plan and this layout are definitely going to fall under the category of 'may not work' simply because my objectives and my means are quite incompatible, which is the reason I started off the thread as I did. Doing this planning has actually quite surprised me since I thought that I would never be able to fit a coach yard and a big station in a bedroom. Numerous iterations of the plan have proven to me that, even if I am only able to get the coach yard and station bit in and nothing else, I would be quite pleased. Those fit quite comfortably in the bedroom space, and I would be a very happy guy on the operations side even if that is all I can manage.

Now that I know that will fit, I suppose all the other features of the layout can be called 'wishful thinking'. I've little experience with double-deck layouts, so I'm not sure how much the aisle issue will be a problem in a space like this. Based on commentary I've gotten, it seems like it will be a pretty major problem. So, I may have to abandon the double-deck approach. I wasn't very keen on it in the first place, but now it may just have to be abandoned.

dave, I have actually moved to drawing 12" squares rather than 8". As for moving to N scale, it's not a bad idea but I've already committed quite heavily to HO Scale with regards to models. I understand it would still be possible to make the switch, but N scale doesn't hold too much appeal for me. It's just too small for me to see the details, which is something I really enjoy in this hobby.

Oh, also, the room is 11' x 13', not 10' - you've brought up that number multiple times. That number (11' x 13'), as I've said before, is sort of a 'minimum clearance' thing. The majority of apartments that I'm considering have a spare room at least that size, but a good amount of them have it a little bigger (such as 11' x 14' etc.) and quite a few have a closet or a walk-in closet attached to the spare room. That would be a great place to extend the layout, but, as I've said, I'm not planning on having that in case I don't. 

Another idea I've been tossing around is running the layout around the corner into a corner of the living room. This would not have the same area as a second deck, but it would at least allow the trains to have some place to go besides staging. However, since all the floor plans have different relationships between their spare rooms and the living room, I'm not crossing my fingers on this one either. 


However, if all else fails, I'll be happy with a coach yard and a terminal to make up and break down trains. That's already more than I thought I could get away with in this space. I'm prepared to scale back what I want, but I feel like the coach yard and terminal could be a bare minimum for a layout I would be very happy with. 

Just out of curiosity, if I were to start reconsidering a second deck, how high would each deck have to be in relation to each other, and how much (additional) clearance would you need? I've been using Armstrong's 'Track Planning for Realistic Operation' to establish how wide the aisles should be (at minimum). He comments that 18" is wide enough for areas for one person to view the layout at a time. The 24" wide bridge would be an acceptable bottleneck considering it is quite short, but the area around the major yard and terminal could be problematic. I might use that access hole in the reversing loop as a location for the terminal switcher to sit, though if whoever is taking that job isn't particularly acrobatic he may not enjoy his working area..

Thanks again,

Dreadnought


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## 1905dave (Sep 18, 2016)

Dreadnought said:


> Oh, also, the room is 11' x 13', not 10' - you've brought up that number multiple times. That number (11' x 13'), as I've said before, is sort of a 'minimum clearance' thing.


One risk with a complicated plan like you have drawn is what happens when the room is slightly different than what you have drawn. For example if the entry door and the closet are on the same wall rather than adjoining wall. What happens if there is a 6" step in in one wall or window where you hadn't planned.

The point is make it as simple and generic as possible so you have a better chance to fit it into a slightly different footprint.

I have often thought the best plan would be two "L's" each about 6-7 ft long on a side. The "important" track fits on those and then there are filler pieces with "scenery" and no critical operation between in the other two corners. That way the critical parts can fit into just about any room and the fillers can be adjusted to fit any room.



> Just out of curiosity, if I were to start reconsidering a second deck, how high would each deck have to be in relation to each other, and how much (additional) clearance would you need?


I've always used the depth of the overhang should equal the viewing opening (or at least the separation). Typically the decks are in the 15-18" apart range. A lot depends on construction and deck thickness.



> I've been using Armstrong's 'Track Planning for Realistic Operation' to establish how wide the aisles should be (at minimum). He comments that 18" is wide enough for areas for one person to view the layout at a time. The 24" wide bridge would be an acceptable bottleneck considering it is quite short, but the area around the major yard and terminal could be problematic.


A person can generally fit through a 18" wide aisle. BUT, you can't have anything sticking out from the fascia (controls, throttle cords, paperwork boxes, etc. You will not be able to turn around in that area and on a double deck layout, unless the upper deck is very shallow , you will never see the lower deck.

It will "work" but you won't repeat it on any layout you build after that.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Some factors to consider when trying to determine
how high your 2nd deck should be in relation to
the first.

First is the clearance you would need for first deck
trains to run unobstructed.

Trains have a knack for derailing. You would need
the ability to rerail those on the first deck wherever
the event happens. 

The upper deck tracks, turnouts and other accessories
will require wiring. This will have to be supported 
in such a way that it is not visible and doesn't
interfere with first deck trains.

You'll probably want some sort of lighting of the
first deck so you can see your trains.

Then comes the major factor: You'll need a Helix with
wide enough radius and a grade that will permit your
locos to smoothly pull a heavy passenger train to
the higher level.

How will second deck affect whatever buildings or
other scenic effects on the first level? In most multi
level layouts the levels usually are not on top of
one another but rather use scenic effects to mate
the levels...hill sides, bridges, tunnels et al.

Don


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