# The case against OIL!



## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Don't try this at home!






:smokin:


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Clean it, and very lightly oil, if any.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

What kind of oil did you use?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

servoguy said:


> What kind of oil did you use?


I didn't use any. Nor would I, it's not needed. I acquired it that way. Whatever it is it gums up pretty good!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The only oil that I use is motor oil because it never gets gummy. 3 in 1 oil will get gummy rather quickly. In any event, if you don't know what kind of oil was used, your results are meaningless. I recommend oiling the drum of an E unit and oiling the stub shafts that the drum rotates on. Don't oil the solenoid plunger.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

servoguy said:


> In any event, if you don't know what kind of oil was used, your results are meaningless.


The results are pretty clear! The second is dry and works just fine!



> Don't oil the solenoid plunger.


Wasn't that the part that was sticking? Did you pay any attention in class?

E units do not need oil. Any kind. Period!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

rkenny, I have a BS mathematics and a MSEE. I have 52 years of experience doing engineering. Apparently you don't know what it a valid test is. Because the E unit you tested works better clean than gummed up with dried oil doesn't prove anything except cleaning out the gummy oil makes the E unit work better. This is no surprise. I have advised people on the forums for several years to avoid 3 in 1 oil, light machine oil, sewing machine oil, etc. You just validated my advice about bad oils. Now take a 4 position E unit with the drum and prove that oiling it as I have advised is a bad idea.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Servoguy I am not impressed. As a WWII vet friend of mine says, "You know how many degrees there are on a rectal thermometer?"

You don't specify what type of engineering you've done, but your degrees indicate you're not an authority on chemical engineering. So you have neither experience or education in the opinion you offer. The fallacy of logic your promoting is called Appeal to Authority. 

I don't know that any claims were made for anything other than it works better without oil. So your input is totally superfluous, and unnecessary.

Anybody on the internet can claim to be anything, and they do. What makes you different?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Now Now

I don't profess to know anything about trains except what I have experienced.

Yes, I have oiled e units. BUT I put the smallest amount of light oil wherever there may be friction. Usually, I oil e units the same way I oil my clocks. I put a drop of oil or two into a pill bottle top. I dip a nail into the oil and touch the oil to the area to be oiled (I copied this from my WWII combat vet father's rifle oiler). Then, I touch a q tip to the oiled area. It leaves the smallest amount of oil on the area.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

rkenney, I have been making gyro stabilized gimbals for the military for the last 40 years. You want to try this? It is very high technology. You can't design and/or build gyro stabilized gimbals because you apparently have no education. Do you know what vapor pressure is and how it is measured? The vapor pressure of lubricants is important. If the vapor pressure is high, the lubricant evaporated and leaves behind either the clay from grease or a gummy mess from oil. You are trying to impress us that cleaning a gummy residue out of an E unit made it work better. Of course it did. What else would you expect? I have started lubricating my E units with motor oil because I know that motor oil will not evaporate in 40 years. It has a vapor pressure at 100C of 10^-2 torr and at room temperature it has a vapor pressure of 10^-5 torr. This is very low vapor pressure. The vapor pressure is very important as it determines the evaporation rate of the oil. I have worked on vacuum chambers where the pressure inside the chamber was 10^-6 torr. Any lubricants used in a vacuum chamber or space applications must have a very low vapor pressure or they will evaporate very quickly. With toy trains we have a similar problem. We want to use lubricants that have a low vapor pressure so they don't evaporate and leave a gummy residue in a few years. I am not eager to disassemble my locos and clean out a gummy residue every few years. That is why I use motor oil.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Servoguy, you need to get over yourself.

You have no idea what I can do, or my level of education. You alone are the braggart here.

As for toy trains, they are just that, toy trains. This is not rocket science. All your education is worthless here. Any child with a modicum of mechanical ability and common sense can service them. You obviously lack at least one of those.:smokin:


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

As I said, without any knowledge of anything, a clean e-unit will/should function perfectly, with an absolute miniscule amount of oil. I use a needle oiler, and just barely touch the end of the axle on the drum, and then wipe anything off.I was told to never oil or very lightly/slightly oil the axle ends of the drum, by a toy train expert with over 70 years experience in Lionel, Marx, and Flyer. And thank the good Lord, he's still with us..And come on guys, a p+ssing contest is not needed here. Remember, you're just arguing with a computer.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)




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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

flyernut said:


> Remember, you're just arguing with a computer.


You mean there aren't any real people out there!

Pass the popcorn, Ed.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I never oil the solenoid cylinder of an E-Unit, that's a sure recipe for failure in all my experience. I use spray contact cleaner to flush out any oil or dirt up there if I'm not taking it totally apart. I've been known to put a tiny drop of oil on the ends of the drum, that can't hurt anything, at least IMO.

I'm not a Chemical Engineer, nor to I play one on TV.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

rkenney, sonny boy, I used to deal with guys like you when I worked at Martin Marietta in the '70s. I got them fired. You have demonstrated clearly that you don't know much. To make a big deal out of cleaning the gummy mess off an E unit and using a headline "The Case against oil" clearly shows your lack of knowledge and experience. I have been servicing and repairing my Lionel trains since I got my first one in 1950. I have also repaired car engines and manual and automatic transmissions. I have done all the repair work on my own cars since 1957.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, rkenney, do you know what a LaPlace transform is?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

So pathetic! 

You are so consumed by self.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

servoguy said:


> BTW, rkenney, do you know what a LaPlace transform is?



I learned that in Grammar school, didn't everyone?
Simply put,
The Laplace transform is a widely used integral transform in mathematics and electrical engineering named after Pierre-Simon Laplace (/ləˈplɑːs/) that transforms a function of time into a function of complex frequency. The inverse Laplace transform takes a complex frequency domain function and yields a function defined in the time domain. 

The Laplace transform is related to the Fourier transform, but whereas the Fourier transform expresses a function or signal as a superposition of sinusoids, the Laplace transform expresses a function, more generally, as a superposition of moments. 

So basically...:smokin:

Given a simple mathematical or functional description of an input or output to a system, the Laplace transform provides an alternative functional description that often simplifies the process of analyzing the behavior of the system, or in synthesizing a new system based on a set of specifications. 

So, for example, Laplace transformation from the time domain to the frequency domain transforms differential equations into algebraic equations and convolution into multiplication.


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## sanepilot (Mar 11, 2012)

*oil*

Big ED,u da man... score one for Big Ed:smilie_daumenpos:


We need a 101 on niceness. I`d like to buy people for what theyre worth and sell them for what they think theyre worth. I go visit Pete in floridaSanepilot


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

All this over OIL?

Had enough popcorn, we need some






now.

With a few cold ones








Ed's buying. :smokin:


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## namvet67 (Dec 7, 2013)

Big ed: make mine heineken please!!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

OK, kids. Time to kiss and make up, please. Seriously ... Let's play nicely and respectfully.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

This sounds like a argument Sheldon and Leonard would have on the "Big Bang Theory".


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## Yukon Jack (Feb 1, 2014)

I have serviced and rebuilt a few Marx reverse units (that the one in the video) and I have never ever used any kind of lubrication. Left dry, it is one of the most reliable e units ever built. Contact cleaner gets things going 99% of the time. 

I rebuilt two of this week. The problem with both was totally unrelated to lubrication or the lack thereof - it was damage caused by uninformed "repair" attempts and user abuse.


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## wsboyette (Jan 25, 2014)

The very best solution is to remove the old clunky E-unit from the locomotive, throw it into the trash, and replace it with a much more reliable electronic reversing unit. Or better yet, a Lionel Command decoder with built-in reversing circuit.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

wsboyette said:


> The very best solution is to remove the old clunky E-unit from the locomotive, throw it into the trash, and replace it with a much more reliable electronic reversing unit. Or better yet, a Lionel Command decoder with built-in reversing circuit.


Can you send me all those clunky old e units that you throw in the trash?


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

See I've got something to look forward to when I'm in my 80's. I can just state my opinion as fact and if anyone argues tell them I've been around longer than them so I'm right.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

look i love trains as much as the next guy but come on! who cares about educations and whose smartest. the 22 year old is saying enough with this pissing contest to the older gentleman.


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

OK let's get productive.

I have 2 1681 engines. Both cleaned , rebuilt, new brushes, comintators clean and they run pretty well. Both have a ``screach`` which I have tracked to the armiture at the drive gear end. Both do it with the wheels removed and one continued doing it after the wheels went back on. If I flood the armiture at that area with my labelle oil, it will quiet down for 5 minutes and start again. Suggestions?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Chances are the armature is scraping the field lamination as it rotates.

Obviously something is scraping. Use a black sharpie to coat suspected areas and retest. Unwanted contact will be visible as having rubbed off the black coating.

You should really start a new thread for this problem in order to get the most views/replies.:smokin:


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Did you oil both ends of the armature? there are bearings on both ends of the shaft. If you use motor oil, you do not need to worry about getting oil on the commutator. I have been oiling the commutators on my engines for about 7 years with no problems. It reduces the motor friction. 

Did you oil all the bearings and gears? Anything that rotates or slides should be lubed.

I recommend 5W-20 motor oil because it never dries out or gets gummy. Motor oil has a vapor pressure of 10^-2 torr at 100 C which is very low. I can't find vapor pressure data for LaBelle products or for any greases. I don't use the following products because I know from experience they evaporate rather quickly: 3 in 1 oil, light machine oil, sewing machine oil, Lionel Lube, white lithium grease. I don't use Red n Tacky or any other grease because I cannot find vapor pressure data for them. 

Anyone who thinks vapor pressure is not important is not thinking rationally. I bought a 2343 a few years ago, and the gear boxes were filled with solidified grease. I repaired home appliances in 1958 and had experience with white lithium grease that had become hard and caused the gears to strip in kitchen mixers. If you are not concerned about damage to your locos, use whatever you want to use. Some of the worst damage I have seen to locos was caused by poor lubrication.


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

Yea. Everthing lubed like all my other engines. It's just these 2 that are giving me problems. 1681 #1 is the one that has the new wheels on. It throws sparks everwhere, ever out the little holes at the end of the brush tubes and off the wheels when it goes through the 022 switches. 1681 #3 is not assembled yet and not a sparker. 1681 #2 is a rebuild and runs like it came from the factory. I will load up a needle oiled with 5-40 and see what happens.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The only possible way it can throw sparks is if metal is striking metal. This is your screaching noise.

No amount of lubrication will solve that. You need to correct the metal to metal contact.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

servoguy said:


> Did you oil both ends of the armature? there are bearings on both ends of the shaft. If you use motor oil, you do not need to worry about getting oil on the commutator. I have been oiling the commutators on my engines for about 7 years with no problems. It reduces the motor friction.
> 
> Did you oil all the bearings and gears? Anything that rotates or slides should be lubed.
> 
> ...


Bruce, just because you don't have "published" torr factors does not add validity to your justifications. In your automobile would you use grease or motor oil on your chassis parts i.e. ball joints or grease? I know my answer which has been formed via 30+ years of real world practical application and testing. Do you also take into account shear factor? The ability to maintain surface tension? The ability to stay put without running off? 

Do NOT get me wrong, motor oil in most spots on a model train is fine. For the one reason you state, it hold it's viscous state for a long time. Greases on the other hand have many more varied formulations, additive packages, base materials, thickeners etc to alter their performance. Greases and oils differ in how they measure certain aspects including the ones I've listed. However, they use differing measures, terminology, and resulting conclusions. Can you tell me the drop point of oils? Mean hertz loading? The use of science while good, can also be a detriment as a perfectly useful item may be excluded because it doesn't reflect numbers or results you base your factors of determination on.

You base much of your decision around not wanting to service your items. I based mine around a planned amount of inclusive maintenance as an expected part of operation. Much as if you store a car for 20 years, you'll have to do a certain amount of work to restore it's operation, the same can and should be part of owning and operating a model train. The best you can do is minimize the amount of effort needed.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I oiled a 2025 loco in 1965, ran it for a while, and put it in a box in the closet. I took it out of the box about 5 years ago, and it did not need to be lubed. I had oiled it with Valvolene 20W-40 because that is what I was using in my cars at the time and it is what I had in the oil can. That convinced me that motor oil was perhaps the best lube to use for toy trains. I did a little looking on the Internet to find the vapor pressure for motor oil, and found it was 10^-2 torr at 100C. I couldn't find the vapor pressure for motor oil at room temperature, but I found some curves for similar fluids which indicated that the vapor pressure at room temperature was probably between 10^-5 and 10^-6 torr. This is extremely low. This makes sense because if you store a car in a garage for 20 years and don't use it, the oil doesn't evaporate. Similarly, if you drive a car for 6000 miles between oil changes, you will not notice any evaporative loss of the oil. 

The vapor pressure and viscosity of grease is determined by the oil the grease is made from. Just because the grease is thick doesn't mean the vapor pressure is low. 

I did some vacuum chamber work about 25 years ago, and you would be surprised how fast lubricants evaporate in a vacuum chamber at 10^-3 torr. Most are gone in a matter of seconds. 

I have more than a hundred engines, 125 022 switches, 30 711 switches, 20 AF prewar O gauge switches, and about 300 cars. I am not interested in servicing all that stuff every few years. I got my first batch of 022 switches about 7 years ago, and they all still work just fine without any additional service. I service the stuff when it needs it. I have two locos with brushes stuck and have a whistle tender that had a stuck brush. First time I ever had a stuck brush in a motor. Easy to fix. Just clean everything well. I use Brake Clean and a small wire brush for the brush holder. I have never put new brushes in a toy train motor. I have put them in Bosch alternators and starters. I do oil the commutators of my toy trains as it makes the motors run better and it may (not sure yet) make the brushes last longer. 

My company makes machines that use industrial gear motors from Nord. The gear boxes come with a synthetic 90 weight oil. The application does not result in the gear boxes getting hot, so we recommend the customer not change the oil as the oil doesn't need changing. I have the same experience with oil in the differentials of my cars. Some have gone to the grave at >300,000 miles with the original oil in the differential. Most of these cars also went to the grave with the original calipers and master cylinders. I change the brake fluid from DOT 3 to DOT 5 which doesn't absorb water and damage the seals. The wizards that made the cars put a vent hole in the master cylinder cap and here in Florida, that allows water to get into the brake fluid. Can you say "stupid design?" A few years ago, I disassembled the ABS for one of these cars because it was partially plugged up. What I found in side was tiny pieces of rubber that came from the master cylinder seals. The seals deteriorated due to the water getting into the system. The ABS unit was fine after it was cleaned out. The parts wholesaler wanted $1700 for a new ABS unit, and the car wasn't worth that much, so I fixed it. 

This is my approach to maintenance of toy trains and cars.

I have two engineering friends that have years of experience with lubricants for defense and aerospace applications. I have discussed the toy train lube issues with them and they agree with what I am doing.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

servoguy said:


> I oiled a 2025 loco in 1965, ran it for a while, and put it in a box in the closet. I took it out of the box about 5 years ago, and it did not need to be lubed. I had oiled it with Valvolene 20W-40 because that is what I was using in my cars at the time and it is what I had in the oil can. That convinced me that motor oil was perhaps the best lube to use for toy trains. I did a little looking on the Internet to find the vapor pressure for motor oil, and found it was 10^-2 torr at 100C. I couldn't find the vapor pressure for motor oil at room temperature, but I found some curves for similar fluids which indicated that the vapor pressure at room temperature was probably between 10^-5 and 10^-6 torr. This is extremely low. This makes sense because if you store a car in a garage for 20 years and don't use it, the oil doesn't evaporate. Similarly, if you drive a car for 6000 miles between oil changes, you will not notice any evaporative loss of the oil.
> 
> The vapor pressure and viscosity of grease is determined by the oil the grease is made from. Just because the grease is thick doesn't mean the vapor pressure is low.
> 
> ...


Ok, Bruce. Oil, a FLUID is dependent upon an outside object acting upon it to move it to the necessary place, such as your cars oil pump or in the case of a rear axle, splash method. The analogy to the braking system is a stretch, and beyond you so here's a simple break down in laymans terminology. As the brake pads wear the calipers piston move a fraction of an inch every time, thus fluid in the master cylinder is lowered. Ok so far? Now as the fluid is displaced a fully sealed master cylinder cap would not allow this to take place. So, the vent on the cap is on the atmospheric side, not the fluid side. Rendering your statement null and void. As to changing from DOT3 to DOT5 that change is a minor one really. Over time all fluids degrade, evaporate and otherwise change states, so last longer.

Your work with grease and oil is limited to testing in a vacuum, not a realistic state where I use them. Funny part is, there are a great many greases used in the aerospace industry, so if grease is as horrid as you make it sound why does NASA use it? My point is you tout torr as the end all be all of determining which lubricant is best. Based on a test condition most of us will never see.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You misunderstand the problem with DOT 3 brake fluid and the atmospheric vent. First, as the atmospheric pressure changes, the vent breathes and with the high humidity here in Florida, it only takes about a year to contaminate the brake fluid. Many manufacturers use a bellows under the cap of the master cylinder to accommodate pressure changes. The cap is sealed to the atmosphere and so there is no contamination of the brake fluid. My statements are not null and void. The DOT 5 fluid is silicone and does not degrade with time. Remember, I have direct experience with this stuff over a time of 50+ years.

I have experience with lubricants in a vacuum which just makes the evaporation happen much faster than it does at atmospheric pressure. If you check on which lubricants are used for aircraft and space satellites, you will find that lubricants are a serious problem and there are experts like my two friends who have an elaborate knowledge of lubricants. I saw a documentary about a crash of an Alaskan Air 737 caused by seizure of the ball screw that trims the stabilizer. The grease had evaporated or somehow had disappeared, and the ball screw seized up and broke. IMHO, the wrong grease was used because if the correct grease was used, it would not have evaporated. Remember, a 737 flies above 30,000 feet where the atmospheric pressure is very low, and lubricants evaporate much faster than at sea level. 

All greases are not the same. What is used for space has a very low vapor pressure or it would evaporate very fast. The pressure in space is about the same as the vacuum chamber I worked on 25 years ago. You cannot buy lubricants for space at a hardware store or auto parts store.

As for chassis grease, it appears that most chassis greases, like Valvolene MoS2 grease has a low vapor pressure, but I cannot find data on it and I don't feel the need to use it. If someone wants to use it, I could recommend it over any other grease because of the MoS2. I have had an open container of it in my tool box for 20+ years, and I have not seen any evaporation. 

If you oil the bearings for the drivers and leading truck and trailing truck, the oil will stay on there for a good long time. I don't think it is possible to grease the bearings for the drivers. I have a 2353 that I bought 40 years ago, I oiled the gears and bearings when I got it, and they have stayed oiled. I may have oiled it again 20 years ago, I don't remember. I don't find the oil running off and getting on the rails or on the carpet.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Jeeeesh.....


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Time to move along, people ... time to move along ...

TJ (speaking with a Moderator's voice here)


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Time to move along, people ... time to move along ...
> 
> TJ (speaking with a Moderator's voice here)


Really!:appl:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Move along little doggies, just move along now.


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