# Blood in the Water????? Can Menard's be a Bigger Player????



## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

We have all heard of the expression *"blood in the water"*. In some quarters of our hobby, it appears to me that there may be a lot of *blood in the water*. Take for example the many quality issues that are now rearing their ugly head. Not hard to figure out that when someone stumbles, there easily can be someone in the wings to take up the slack. Seems to me that we could well be at a point when there is indeed more than a little slack. 

We all know how Menard's has now dominated the low-cost rolling stock business. What if they sniff the *blood in the water* and decide to go after the low-cost starter set business. They surely have the connections to get this done. What would that do to a giant we all know?????? I personally see opportunity knocking. Will Menard's open this door?????

Do you see *blood in the water* as well????


----------



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I see Menard's as an early Kline, or Weaver. Yes they can be a player. I'm hoping as they mature, and offer better scale/detailed cars I'll jump in and buy. As of right now they are not their yet but have progress big time since their first offerings.

Now the question is what's Menard's end game? What's their plan for the future or are they just a side note to the o gauge history?


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

No. Lionel has problems, Menards has better leadership and business management. But that alone. No, I don't see "blood in the water." 

What I will observe however is "the planets aligning." This is a long-shot but:
1) Rumor has in Mike W. might be in a mood to sell MTH and retire. (I can certainly understand).
2) Menards could easily digest the purchase, and would move up to being a serious player - _the _serious player, in the O-Gauge field, even in HO, too. 
Both companies are privately held, I believe. Makes it very easy and fast to execute

This is my dream for 2019.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Until Menards makes engines they are an afterthought for me. I don't need a hundred pieces of inexpensive rolling stock.


----------



## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

No. Menards has had multiple quality problems of their own. Their market is the lower-end of the hobby, and I don't see them getting out of that anytime soon. Almost every release has been problematic for them. From using other's building designs in the beginning, trucks that don't work properly, cars that can't handle curves, led light failures, loose track pins and flaking plating on track, and some very unusual paint/font designs. Most of these issues have been resolved, but they have a dismal "first-offering" track record. I can only guess they get away with it because of their price point.

Again, most of the problems get resolved in future runs.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Lee Willis said:


> No. Lionel has problems, Menards has better leadership and business management. But that alone. No, I don't see "blood in the water."
> 
> What I will observe however is "the planets aligning." This is a long-shot but:
> 1) Rumor has in Mike W. might be in a mood to sell MTH and retire. (I can certainly understand).
> ...


Lee
The key here is that Menards is diversified. They are not a one and done model train manufacturer like Lionel and MTH, and likely Atlas and Williams. 

If Lionel or MTH has a particularly bad year, their margins are not strong enough to absorb that bad year. They will continue, I guess, but that next catalog may have less product, less diversity and more anxiety. 

But at Menards, they dwarf Lionel and MTH in terms of annual sales of a fully diversified retail market. Home improvement is as American as any retail business and even a strong model railroad year from Menards would still account for .005 % of their sales. 

Not saying they only want to break even but if they go "all in" they could easily withstand smaller margins than the traditional manufacturers. 

Right now they are 100% a niche market. As I mentioned around Christmas I saw more HO at Menards than O so personally I don't see Menards going further, just new products of rolling stock and buildings.


----------



## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

c.midland said:


> No. Menards has had multiple quality problems of their own. .. and some very unusual paint/font designs.


This is my issue. I basically dollar cost average my rolling stock purchases. I spend about $300 on rolling stock a month, give or take. 

I can purchase 5 $60 cars (ouch!) or 2 Menards cars for $40, and 5-7 higher detailed cars from Atlas or others. BUT - the Union Pacific yellow on the couple of box cars is not proto from what I can tell, it's too bright. And detail isn't there on some of the other cars. 

I would rather have a Menards Premium line for $29.99. Let's face it, that's still half or LESS than some of the Lionel and MTH rolling stock. 

But right now I look at the lack of detail on the Menard's $19.99 and buy sparingly.


----------



## Hasek23 (Dec 25, 2018)

Hmmm, seems to me in the 60's and 70's you couldn't get luxuries from Toyota or Datsun/Nissan like you could from the big 3. Today it's a new ballgame from then. Same with Hyundai and Kia which started in the U.S. not too long ago. Look at them now.

Come into the market at a basic level, get a foot hold, and grow from there. Let's hope Menard's does the same. Competition is good for the consumer


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Menards is very interesting, but no major competition for Lionel at this time in my view. I agree with the others that Menards quality issues make Lionel look excellent by comparison. Menards makes sense on price only to me. I won't buy any of their rolling stock for my layout. Too small, too far from realistic, and just a cheap imitation at this point. I bought two flat cars with the REA cars on them and plan to just give away the flat cars.

Art


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

What I get a kick out of, is Lionel Traditional rolling stock that is listed for $50 to $60. This is all about the Lionel faithful bending over and grabbing their ankles, here comes the shaft. I am guessing that Lionel Traditional rolling stock costs no more to manufacture than Menards rolling stock, maybe even less since they probably order larger quantities.

Bill


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

Brian, I do see blood in the water. The big L is hurting. Only time will tell whether or not it's a mortal wound. If that wound is mortal Menards could step up and take their place, it's possible.

I have found Menards quality to be quite good and a great value for the money. Menards quality has improved dramatically. Consider that various items have sold out. They must be made in rather large quantities to allow the low price (and freebie giveaways) and various train items are sold out. Sales must be very strong.

As Gary said, consider K-Line. At first all they made was O27. They specialized in cheaper alternatives to Lionel O gauge trains. We all know the rest of the story and the very high quality trains they went on to make.

The high end 3 rail O scale market is very small. Lionel went to BTO because Legacy engines don't sell well. There is a reason why Legacy is BTO and LC+, train sets, traditional rolling stock and accessories aren't BTO. Mike Wolf has said that Railking outsells Premier by a lot and that's where MTH makes it's money, just as Lionel makes it's money from train sets and traditional trains and accessories. 

Consider the catalogues of the two companies. MTH has their biggest seller, Railking first. That's what I and most hobbyists are interested in. Then comes Premier and finally European scale trains. Then look at a Lionel catalogue. First up is Legacy BTO. Then LC+, rolling stock, train sets, etc. It's the opposite of MTH as well at Lionel catalogues from their golden age when the less expensive sets were the first things in the catalogue. It was smart marketing. 

We don't know how Lionel's traditional and train set quality is or exactly how many they sell. If that end of their business is strong they will survive the high end quality failures. But if the quality issues extend to their bread and butter items they are in big trouble and the door is open for a competitor to take their place as the big dog in O gauge.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

With all the carping about Menard's quality issues, and the lack of detail, one point is missed. While I like the big-buck scale stuff with lots of detail as much as the next guy, the Menard's product fits a great niche. I can pack up a bunch of Menard's boxcars or hoppers for a modular show and not worry that the detail will be broken by handling. No way I'd consider taking my stock of Lionel PFE Reefers to the modular show, just too fragile! The paint detail on the Menard's cars are better than average, and the quality of the trucks are improving as well. I recently bought 24 Reading hoppers, of the 24, I had issues with three of them, one required a new truck which Menard's promptly sent. I've had higher failure rates from Lionel stuff right out of the box, so I'm not seeing where Menard's is doing anything wrong.

In any case, anyone that's buying rolling stock for 1/3 the price of the high priced spread shouldn't really be expecting the same level of detail, that's simply not realistic. Could Menard's improve in some areas? Sure! I would argue that they have improved in some areas, the most recent cars not only had more reliable trucks, but they also had some lettering on the ends, that's fairly recent.

I will also note that some fairly knowledgeable model train folks have commented favorably about my Menard's stuff at the modular shows. Really, when a string of boxcars or hoppers is rolling by, exactly how much detail are you really picking up? For all the carping, did anyone notice the extra rail on all our track? Come on guys, we have to have some suspension of belief when we look at this stuff, it's not as realistic as the prototypes.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

The thrust of my thread addresses the inexpensive starter sets sold primarily during the Christmas season at the big box stores. *In no way was I referring to the higher end product market.* 

Menard's has become the master at offering low-cost rolling stock with freebies attached to their sales. Their current or new suppliers could be more than competent to produce a low-cost engine and combine it with rolling stock to make a train set. They already produce track. How difficult would that be? A transformer and a box and they are ready to go. Not a big investment in the big picture.

*The question is if Menard's jumps into the starter set business, what impact would that have on the Big L. I think it would set off earthquakes. *

I spent the last part of my career in sales management. I see a huge opportunity for Menard's to enlarge their footprint in the O-Gauge market. If I was part of their sales team, I would be jumping up and down at this one. What an opportunity Menard's would have to approach the big box buyers with starter sets at super competitive pricing. That could offer the big box stores a significant opportunity for them to increase the number of seasonal sales for train sets. 

To go further, if my suppositions are correct, Menard's could become a much larger player by simply expanding to a new line of starter sets with the same quality as their rolling stock now is. This presents another question is do they really want to expand their O-Gauge market?

So, back to my original question, *WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS WOULD MEAN TO OUR HOBBY AS A WHOLE a**nd in particular, Menard's?????*


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

*"Until Menards makes engines they are an afterthought for me. I don't need a hundred pieces of inexpensive rolling stock."*

Not the market I am talking about, Jeff. This thread addresses the question that if Menard's produces a LOW COST starter set, what impact would that have on our hobby as a whole and the Big L in particular.

In order to do this, they would indeed have to produce a low cost engine that most of us may not be interested in other than as part of a set for a gift item. 

The market I am talking about is the seasonal buyer or perhaps the first time train set buyer.

I hope his clarifies it.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Brian - I think this audience is well past the starter set consumer. What would it do to Lionel?? They certainly have to be watching. Beyond that in their current state I wouldn't have a clue.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

*"Their market is the lower-end of the hobby, and I don't see them getting out of that anytime soon."*

I agree c.midland, and my thread *DID NOT* suggest that they leave this market. Just expand it to low-cost seasonal train sets, similar to what they already produce.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

*"Menards is very interesting, but no major competition for Lionel at this time in my view. I agree with the others that Menards quality issues make Lionel look excellent by comparison. Menards makes sense on price only to me. I won't buy any of their rolling stock for my layout. Too small, too far from realistic, and just a cheap imitation at this point. I bought two flat cars with the REA cars on them and plan to just give away the flat cars.

Art"*

I agree, Art. The current Menard's market is not targeted at the high end train consumer. But consider this, *IF* seasonal sales of inexpensive train sets makes up a large portion of BIg L's business, and a BIG competitor offered comparable starter sets at a much lower cost to the consumer, what do you thing the impact would be?????? How would the big box stores react to bringing in train sets at a lower?????


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

*"Brian - I think this audience is well past the starter set consumer."*

Absolutely, this thread in no way was intended at us as the potential large market for starter sets. The market I am talking about is seasonal train set buyers and parents or loved ones who are buying their first train set for a child.

Having said that, our MTF members do have a good perspective on such subjects because we are the folks who love this hobby and follow it closely.

The more comments, the better. Maybe Mark the *Menard's Guy* is reading our posts and we may spark an idea (if they have not already thought about it).


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

If Lionel lost a major share of their starter set business it would be lights out for the big L. That is Lionel's bread & butter cover all other costs side of business.

Bill


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

Thanks, Bill. Your comment is exactly what this thread was looking for. The impact if *Menrad's* were to enter the starter set business.


----------



## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

this article does not mention it but John Menard is into trains and wanted an easy way to get rolling stock.
John Robert Menard Jr. (born January 22, 1940) is an American entrepreneur, philanthropist, and billionaire who is the founder and owner of Menards, a Midwestern chain of home improvement stores. He is also a former INDYCAR racing team owner. He is also the father of Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series driver Paul Menard. He is the 136th-richest person in the world, and the 68th-richest person in the United States. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Menard_Jr.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Menards had some of the fastest cars when they were running the IRL series in the mid 90's.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

Bigdodgetrain, thanks for the information about John. It serves to make this thread more interesting in many ways. Besides, he has an outstanding birthday.


----------



## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

As far as getting an edge on the starter set market? I think people will still go for the Lionel name. Reason is because that is what they grew up with or because someone has told them to buy Lionel. Menards on the other hand if they would get into the starter set market, would have to have a product that is bulletproof. Lionel has the facilities to deal with returns and the technicians to work on them. I don't know if Menards would have all this or invest monies to do so.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2019)

*"Lionel has the facilities to deal with returns and the technicians to work on them."*

If the returns continue to stack up, this could turn out to be a big problem. Maybe all right if the folks are in no rush.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I was always surprised that RMT did not get into the basic starter sets years ago when they started up the business.. They have the tooling for 4 different locos, could have come out with a 4 car set at a very attractive price.

Bill


----------



## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

Yep, I don't see Menards get into anything with locomotives. That means dealing with returns, keeping a parts inventory., developing a control system. It's not in the cards.

I think their next step might be to buy some structure or scenery companies. Maybe Woodland Scenics or Scenic Express? Or maybe a diecast company. Or maybe even Lemax. Either way, I think they keep anything they might be a subsidiary that runs as is. Menard's doesn't have time to devote so much attention to a fickle hobby-based business.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't see Menards in the train business for the long haul. They will continue on for a few more years then shut it down. Probably a better margin in their bird seed business than the toy train business.

Bill


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2019)

Brian, I think that if Menards made train sets or even a locomotive or two it would hurt Lionel but I don't think it would knock them out. It might be the wake up call they need, or might motivate the current owners to sell the company to someone who knows what he/she is doing.

I don't see why Menards would get out of the train business as long as it's profitable, even after John Menard retires. I don't know whether or not his heirs would have the same passion for trains that he does but we shall see.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Lionel was well known when I was a kid and was still well known when ny kids were kids.
They were in the Sears and Wards catalogs, department stores and various types of specialty and hardware stores. Where do you regularly see Lionel trains today? I don't
think most "kids" under 30 ever heard of Lionel.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

rogruth said:


> Lionel was well known when I was a kid and was still well known when ny kids were kids.
> They were in the Sears and Wards catalogs, department stores and various types of specialty and hardware stores. Where do you regularly see Lionel trains today? I don't
> think most "kids" under 30 ever heard of Lionel.


Yep, ask any 20 something to 30 something youngster what they think about Lionel and they will tell you that they either like or don't like his music.

Bill


----------



## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

I don't see Menard's becoming a major force in the RTR starter segment of this business as they sine they're regional and lack the pipeline necessary for national distribution for such sets. While they do have an e-commerce online presence, I suspect the majority of such rtr sets are impulse buys done at brick and mortar stores where family members see such sets and can take them home with them. By being a regional chain in a minority of this country's 50 states they'd be missing a significant percentage of the prospective rtr starter set buying public.


----------



## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

seayakbill said:


> I don't see Menards in the train business for the long haul. They will continue on for a few more years then shut it down. Probably a better margin in their bird seed business than the toy train business.
> 
> Bill


I agree. Not to be crass about it but being a family owned business with Menard's owner nearing 80 years old, I wonder if when he passes, whether other family members will have the desire and expertise to continue with this segment of Menard's business, especially if the profits generated by it aren't that significant to the company's bottom line and making it worth the effort needed to both carry on and continue being innovative. For the current owner, I'd guess this is a labor of love rather than a major money maker for his company.


----------



## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I wouldn't be surprised if Menards has concerned Lionel, but I doubt it has wounded them. Lionel's biggest problem is them selves. Our best hope is that they will be taken over by some genuine train people before it is too late.

Art


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

seayakbill said:


> Yep, ask any 20 something to 30 something youngster what they think about Lionel and they will tell you that they either like or don't like his music.


They might also tell you he's a great soccer player.


----------



## Midnight Goat (Dec 19, 2017)

I think they certainly have the potential to be if the interest is there. Heck even if they moved into more accessories they could make a dent. If they came out with a cheaper form of fast track that would be a huge hit. I just got my first menards train (a santa fe gondola) and am very happy with it. It's for a track cleaner project I'm working on and was a painless buy. The light up hummer was a nice bonus too! I think having a half decent starter set in the 150-200 range would get a lot of people off the fence and give the hobby a try. Heck that could even be good news for Lionel once they get hooked and want better equipment.


----------



## ed&bingo (Sep 20, 2015)

Lee, Don't start rumors about Mike Wolf. Mike is not thinking about retiring.


----------



## ed&bingo (Sep 20, 2015)

Brian, I didn't get a Christmas card from you guy's. hope you are doing well.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

ed&bingo said:


> Lee, Don't start rumors about Mike Wolf. Mike is not thinking about retiring.


I didn't start it. I read it here in another thread.


----------



## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

menards is chicken crap for not selling to California!


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

bigdodgetrain said:


> menards is chicken crap for not selling to California!


LOL, could be Menards thinks the idiotic regulation in Calif that is driving this is chicken crap also.

Bill


----------



## Guest (Jan 11, 2019)

"Brian, I didn't get a Christmas card from you guy's. hope you are doing well."

Sent our cars out in early December, Ed???????


----------



## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

seayakbill said:


> LOL, could be Menards thinks the idiotic regulation in Calif that is driving this is chicken crap also.
> 
> Bill


everyone else follows the rule. menards believes they have to have their product TESTED when in FACT they do not.
all menards has to do is put the notice on their website and on invoices. what menards did took more time then if they would have put the notice on their website. fyi what menards did was program their computer with ALL of the zip codes in calif that now denies product shipping to calif. would have been easier to program said computers to show the notice.


----------



## CSXJOE (Aug 13, 2018)

Did any of you seers predict Menards entering the model train business ? It appears based on their past performance Menards holds their decisions close to the chest and announces when ready to go all in.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I was at Menards yesterday and was looking at what was still on the shelf. There are some nice tank cars, but on closer inspection I could see that trucks will not turn fully because the latter is blocking them. This is a issue they need to address. The tank cars I have purchased in the past did not have this problem.


----------



## CPinMI (Dec 11, 2018)

Menards trains seem to be targeted toward the novice, "around-the-tree" layouts and not for serious hobbyists. That being said, some of their stock could provide a decent base for custom painting and such. 

As for their buildings, most are comical - the LED lights are either too big, too small, or too bright. The cardboard photo interiors of buildings is cheap looking. And, the gigantic plugs on the rear of the buildings is the final nail in the coffin. The only one I find remotely interesting is the burned-out engine shed. But, it's not in the era I'm planning on modeling, so I won't be buying it.


----------



## CPinMI (Dec 11, 2018)

rogruth said:


> Lionel was well known when I was a kid and was still well known when ny kids were kids.
> They were in the Sears and Wards catalogs, department stores and various types of specialty and hardware stores. Where do you regularly see Lionel trains today? I don't
> think most "kids" under 30 ever heard of Lionel.


I think you just hit the nail on the head. Most kids know about PlayStations, XBoxes, and iPhones. How many kids are playing with trains? The generations of train fanatics are growing older and that love isn't being passed down (for various reasons, some, but not all of which are our fault). It's like any other hobby. If it isn't passed down, it becomes lost to new ones.


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

DennyM said:


> I was at Menards yesterday and was looking at what was still on the shelf. There are some nice tank cars, but on closer inspection I could see that trucks will not turn fully because the latter is blocking them. This is a issue they need to address. The tank cars I have purchased in the past did not have this problem.


Denny, I picked up the Frisco tank car and there is a lot of clearance between wheels and stirrups. Been running it for a week or so on the layout with zero problems. Might be an issue on 027 curves, don't know about that, all my curves are 072 or 081.

Bill


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

CPinMI said:


> Menards trains seem to be targeted toward the novice, "around-the-tree" layouts and not for serious hobbyists. That being said, some of their stock could provide a decent base for custom painting and such.
> 
> As for their buildings, most are comical - the LED lights are either too big, too small, or too bright. The cardboard photo interiors of buildings is cheap looking. And, the gigantic plugs on the rear of the buildings is the final nail in the coffin. The only one I find remotely interesting is the burned-out engine shed. But, it's not in the era I'm planning on modeling, so I won't be buying it.


interesting analysis, so whose buildings do you purchase ?

Bill


----------



## CPinMI (Dec 11, 2018)

seayakbill said:


> interesting analysis, so whose buildings do you purchase ?
> 
> Bill


I haven't dabbled in O for decades. Now, I'm getting back into HO. But, I used to buy plastic kits (Lifelike?) and build them (not very well - too impatient as a kid). Now, I plan to either scratch build or kit bash when I get to that point. Just bought a new house and working on getting the basement ready for trains!


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

CPinMI said:


> I haven't dabbled in O for decades. Now, I'm getting back into HO. But, I used to buy plastic kits (Lifelike?) and build them (not very well - too impatient as a kid). Now, I plan to either scratch build or kit bash when I get to that point. Just bought a new house and working on getting the basement ready for trains!


You would have to be a heck of a scale modeler to produce a building equal to the following Menards buildings:

*Herman's Sauerkraut facility
Chippewa Valley Farm Supply
Vetter Sash & Door
*
Check em out on Menards web site.

Bill


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

IF Menards got into the starter set business and IF they did extensive advertising and IF they kept their prices low, I think they would put a big time hit on Lionel.

That’s three big IFs.

I do think the Lionel name is well known, even to young folks. The Menards name, not so much. At the Oaks show, the Lionel booth was packed with kids and parents looking at starter sets. At that show as well as others (even at TCA meets) I see Menards cars priced at twice their on-line price. That wouldn’t happen if people knew about Menards. And I do think kids are into trains. When kids visit my layout, I see the same enthusiasm as when we were kids and saw trains.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Bob,
Why do some sellers think they can get double the price for Menards cars?
Even with shipping most are under $25.00.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I think they do get twice the MSRP. Otherwise I wouldn't keep seeing them priced that high. And I think they get away with it because people don't know about Menards. They don't know what they are buying.


----------



## Guest (Jan 14, 2019)

I believe it is all about the $$$$$$$$$. If Menard's were to get into the starter set business, and their was a big enough price difference (as there is on their rolling stock), I don't care what name was on the competitor's box, they would blow the market away.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I've seen dealers with Menards cars that they jacked the price over double what Menards charges. Since there is no Menards in the East, people don't know their paying too much.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Why doesn't somebody just email Mark the Menards Guy and ask?

I'm sure he'll give "us" their business plan!


----------



## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

CPinMI said:


> I think you just hit the nail on the head. Most kids know about PlayStations, XBoxes, and iPhones. How many kids are playing with trains? The generations of train fanatics are growing older and that love isn't being passed down (for various reasons, some, but not all of which are our fault). It's like any other hobby. If it isn't passed down, it becomes lost to new ones.


Sorry, but I have to object. It is nobody’s fault if this hobby dies. If our kids or grandchildren are not interested so be it. Not our fault... but their choice.

Forty years ago there were many more golfers and bowlers. Is it our parents fault there are fewer now? I think not.

Fewer stamp collectors, fewer coin collectors so shall we blame our grandparents?


----------



## Guest (Jan 15, 2019)

I have been an exhibitor at train shows with my clubs for at least 15 years and probably more. I see many kids who love trains and have trains at home. My club in NY has junior members who love trains.

For boys who grew up in the late 40s and 50s trains were the high tech toys that almost every boy wanted. That is not the case today but it's a big mistake to think that there aren't boys and girls today who love trains. Some of them will be lifelong hobbyists. 

The hobby is in much better shape and has a brighter future than many people think. The sky is not falling.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Joe, there were plenty of kids that were really interested in the trains at the WGHS this weekend at Oaks.


----------



## Guest (Jan 15, 2019)

John, that's what I've been seeing. I know some of those kids will outgrow the hobby but some of them will stick with it and some will give it up for a while and return when they grow up.


----------



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Joe, there were plenty of kids that were really interested in the trains at the WGHS this weekend at Oaks.


It might be because it is the one time a year many of these kids see trains run.


----------



## Rich883 (Jul 15, 2015)

I think we may be giving menards way too much credit for their ability to impact the broader market. They have just over 300 stores, yes they sell on line but not to all states. So if you don’t read train magazines or live near one you are unlikley know they sell trains.

Their distribution is simply too small to really impact the market with starter sets. Think about all the major retailers you have seen Lionel in, how do they get that type of distribution. How many major retailers are going to buy from a competitor?

Do I think they have done a good job with the products they have launched, sure, but a big difference between selling structures and inexpensive rolling stock, and selling starter sets to the mass market.


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2019)

Rich, the topic addresses what, if any, impact would occur if Menard's enters the starter set Christmas related business at the *big box stores*. Train magazines would have little to no effect. I also think the stores they operate would be an asset, but they would need a nationwide approach that could be done if they wanted to.

Is all about the $$$$$$$$ and if they want to expand where they currently are with the model train business.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Rich883 said:


> I think we may be giving menards way too much credit for their ability to impact the broader market. They have just over 300 stores, yes they sell on line but not to all states.


Well, I think they sell to most states, just CA seems to want to insure that they don't sell there.


----------



## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Menards, at least from my point of view, had a very poor holiday train season. Yes they offered some interesting buildings and scenes. They also had tube track and roiling stock. But that was about it.
They had only a couple of sets that looked like leftover stock from past years. Nothing new or interesting like the polar express or Mickey Mouse sets. They only sell tube track so if you did buy a set you could not expand it easily.
The buildings are nice but very expensive. Can't see a Millennial dad stopping in and grabbing a $100 building with a stack of tube track, 
To be honest I think it's time to get off the Menards bandwagon. There just isn't enough product in their catalog to warrant the attention they are getting.
Menards needs to start offering a more creative and imaginative lineup to be taken seriously.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Menards is never likely to be offering stuff like the Polar Express, that requires an expensive license.


----------



## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

What I mean is they do not sell the most popular or newer Lionel offerings. Never had the Polar Express although they had Harry Potter a few years ago. It looks like they have not received any new inventory from Lionel for 2-3 years.

If you walked up to the Menards train isle there is not enough merchandise selection to put together a holiday around the tree layout.

There is a bunch of assorted cars but the tooling is really sub standard and nothing they sell really matches up with what Lionel has. And the tube track doesn't match up with FasTrack even if they did offer an up to date set selection. :smilie_daumenneg:


----------



## Rich883 (Jul 15, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Rich, the topic addresses what, if any, impact would occur if Menard's enters the starter set Christmas related business at the *big box stores*. Train magazines would have little to no effect. I also think the stores they operate would be an asset, but they would need a nationwide approach that could be done if they wanted to.
> 
> Is all about the $$$$$$$$ and if they want to expand where they currently are with the model train business.


Brian, I think maybe I didnt make my point well.

I believe that menards has much too small a retail footprint, only in 14 states, and don’t sell to all states to have the reach to make an impact them selves. 

Nor do they have a brand for model trains. Big box retailers need a known brand for niche items like trains, commodity items like trash bags and such they may simply use their house brand. 

In addition I don’t believe other retailers would look to carry a menards brand in their stores. Would target really offer menards?

The other point is menards makes the price point work because they don’t keep margin for distribution, they go from China via their own stores and website to the market. If they wanted to go through a big box, they would need say 50% margin for the big box, on top of their current margin. Unless they hire a sales staff, they need some % margin for the rep group that gets products in to major retailers. This reality of distribution would significantly change the economics of the price to the consumer.

Now if they bought say MTH or Lionel, then perhaps they could gain economies and leverage from their core business and make a large impact on the train hobby with a solid brand.


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Also the trains are on the seasonal isle. So whatever is left will go upstairs where they keep the off season merchandise.


----------



## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, I think they sell to most states, just CA seems to want to insure that they don't sell there.



calif is NOT the problem here Menards is!!!


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

The thing you have to realize is Menards is a big box home improvement store. Selling trains will not make or break them. If they were to stop selling trains tomorrow they would still be a home improvement store. So it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Losing train business will not affect them. The only reason they even sell trains is the owner runs O gauge.


----------



## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Nothing against the good people at Menards, but with their limited selection of rolling stock types I wonder how long they’ll be offering model trains. Unless they start producing more than just box cars and hoppers, the blood in the water may be their own. 

I do hope they expand and become a major player. It would be great for the hobby. No one really expected Williams or K-Line in their infancy to grow like they did. That and get over having to slap on a label to ship to California. Most other major businesses do.


----------



## Guest (Jan 17, 2019)

*"calif is NOT the problem here Menards is!!!"*

:smilie_auslachen:


----------



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Say over the past 10 years Menards has sold 250,000 pieces of rolling stock and 10,000 buildings. Thats a whole bunch of bread & butter removed from the other importers bottom line. Undoubtedly traditional type rolling stock is one of the biggest profit makers for Lionel & MTH, more so for Lionel.

For Menards to sell a traditional boxcar for $20 shows that it does not cost an arm & leg to manufacture and ship those guys.

Bill


----------



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Guys your still missing the point. Menards is a home improvement store first. By the end of February all their trains will be off the floor and on the second floor with the off season merchandise. You can still buy it, but mostly online. They won't put anything new out.


----------



## Matt_GNo27 (Feb 7, 2016)

bigdodgetrain said:


> calif is NOT the problem here Menards is!!!


Right, at least in this scenario. Menards's position is baffling.


----------



## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

bigdodgetrain said:


> calif is NOT the problem here Menards is!!!


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: *No.*


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

bigdodgetrain said:


> calif is NOT the problem here Menards is!!!


Well, that's your opinion, but I suspect it's not shared by Menard's management.


----------

