# Turnout Signal Question



## spikedrivingblues (Dec 11, 2018)

I'm asking this question very prematurely as I am a long way from installing turnout signals. However, I'm curious. I've looked online a lot but haven't got clarification.

I'm building my first layout and I think I want to add signals of some kind. I did not so far build the layout for block detection but I would like to do the following because, firstly it would be cool and secondly I believe it would be somewhat prototypical.

-have a two aspect signal showing trains from the trailing 
switch direction red if the turnout is not lined and green if it is

-and maybe a signal showing trains from the facing switch 
direction green for the straight route and green, yellow for the 
siding or crossover

I use Peco PL-10 snap switch machines and NCE Switch-It stationary decoders. I'm hoping products exist that can be integrated with the products I'm using so the signaling is automatic.

I'd love to hear any thoughts from those of you with more DCC experience than I on this idea! Thanks


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I wouldn't know how to wire an aspect using the Peco switch machines.

I use the Walthers with built in lever snap switches and decoders to control my signal aspects. They are servo operated and the snap switches are activated by a cam on the servo that opens and closes the lever on the switch. 

They use track power for the decoder and turnouts are controlled by the NCE hand held Powercab.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Here is a video of signals controlled by the Train Controller Silver software. It's sold by Railroad Co. out of Germany. It works on Windows based computers and interfaces with the Digitrax SE8C and BDL168 boards. It provides block occupancy and turnout setting sensing. It works with any turnout because it only senses what the SE8C is doing which is the controller board for the turnout.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

signals are normally used to indicate whether the next or following blocks are occupied by a train. Red (stop) if the next block is occupied and yellow (approach) if the following block is occupied.

two headed signals might be used to indicate a speed through one or more (diverging) turnouts.

it's not obvious to me that there are two signals at the end of a siding, each for a particular siding track and dependent on whether the turnout is aligned for that track or no. (if the turnout is not lined for that track, a train is probably expected coming from the opposite direction and the signal red for that reason).

i have red/green LEDs embedded in the facial of my layouts indicating the turnout position based on the polarity of the frog and each rail. I think this may be more along the lines of what you're trying to use the signals for.

but it's your layout.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

layout is DCC and as far as I read it seems block detection is planned.

To drive signals some sort of logic device is needed. In most simple form this device can be a switch that detects position of the turnout. A more involved device will receive input of turnout positions and occupancy of blocks and apply whatever rules are to display the signal aspects. 
This logic device can be an intricate diode matrix (let's not do it in 2019), a dedicated off-the-shelf signal controller, Arduino-like DIY controller or a full blown PC running Rocrail or JMRI.
I'm going for PC controlled (in my case Raspberry Pi) with all DIY stuff. If you like programming and soldering you will enjoy the process a lot 

If you prefer off-the-shelf solution without computers and such look at team digital SIC24AD controllers. Drives 24 signal heads based on 8 inputs . There are several ways to set it up for standalone logic computation: a quick/simple one, detailed that provides all kinds of signaling flexibility at expense of quite complicated programming, and a direct input/output - can be driven from the PC at which point it provides 24 outputs and 8 detectors. I happen to be selling a pair of these controllers I don't plan to reuse (since I'm going all Arduino based DIY stuff)


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

spikedrivingblues said:


> I'm building my first layout and I think I want to add signals of some kind. I did not so far build the layout for block detection but I would like to do the following because, firstly it would be cool and secondly I believe it would be somewhat prototypical.
> 
> -have a two aspect signal showing trains from the trailing
> switch direction red if the turnout is not lined and green if it is
> ...


This wouldn't be strictly prototypical, as that gets a bit more complicated, but this sounds like a decent basic switch-position indicator.

Not proto, but may work well for your layout.


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## ncrc5315 (Jan 25, 2014)

cv_acr said:


> This wouldn't be strictly prototypical, as that gets a bit more complicated, but this sounds like a decent basic switch-position indicator.
> 
> Not proto, but may work well for your layout.


On the Nebraska Central, they have radio controlled switches, with a two head mast, green for the main, yellow for the industry. This would be a prototypical example of switch indication.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It seems unusual that the NCE stationary decoders do not
have terminals to control signal and panel LEDs. Considering
the cost of these devices you would think they would have
that ability.

Looks like you'll have to add microswitches to
the turnouts to control your signals.

Don


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## spikedrivingblues (Dec 11, 2018)

Sorry I haven't replied at all until now. Just got settled after work. I just read all the replies. Firstly, thanks for all the info, it gives me a lot to look into.

Don, I'm not sure it the NCE Switch-It decoders have outputs for signals or not...I do know that they have outputs to go to a control panel toggle, maybe that could help me?

Thanks again, all


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## Yoppeh7J-UPmp954 (Nov 23, 2014)

With the Peco PL 10 use Peco PL-13 Accessory Switches. I just used DCC track power to power the signals along with the frogs.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

DonR said:


> It seems unusual that the NCE stationary decoders do not have terminals to control signal and panel LEDs.


i don't see a need for a turnout controller to have extra outputs to control both the turnout and something else (e.g. panel indicator, signal). why not just use the signal used to control the turnout?

it's more conventional to use switches physically connected to the turnout (e.g. tortoise contacts, PL-13 accessory switch) for that purpose. They would indicate the actual position of the turnout (feedback) not what a control signal (feedforward) is trying to do. what if the electrical connection to the turnout motor is broken?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If its a light to indicate the turnout position, I use a two color 2 lead LED in series with the stall motor.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

how would you add LEDs with a Peco switch machines? Do Peco's require a momentary pulse?


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## Yoppeh7J-UPmp954 (Nov 23, 2014)

gregc use a Peco PL 13 which fits on the opposite end of the Peco PL 10 from the mounting pins. I used DCC track power Which also powers the frogs. I just did 3 Walthers Shinohara, double crossovers with peco PL10s surface mounted on the PL 12 adapter base and the PL 13's on top. The signals work changing from red to green and etc as the PL 10's move .
I'm 75 with only a GED I got taking tests during basic training in March , April of 1966 to get my high school diploma before I spent 18 months overseas in Lindon Johnson's Southeast Asian War Games so I have a hard time explaining it to people. It works google the parts.


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## spikedrivingblues (Dec 11, 2018)

Thanks for all the input, all. I think the PL 13 sounds like it work well for me. After searching the web I am still unclear how I would wire this. I don't think I would consider my stationary decoder in the wiring because it does not supply constant power and the signal lights would need that. It sounds like I cant power the PL 13 from my track bus (is that right?). Also, I'm wondering if I need to add resistors or if the signal will already have them wired in.

If anyone could take the time to draw a schematic showing my specific components I would be very grateful! Again, I use Peco Electrofrog turnouts w/ PL 10 switch machines powered by NCE Switch-It decoders and I plan to use two aspect signals to show point position. 

Sorry but I've never built a model RR before and I've never been good with electrical stuff. Thanks for all the help


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

there's a diagram ~halfway down on this page, Turnout Indicator Lights with Peco Switch Machines

this forum will not display the image directly. ?)


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Someone makes a switch just for solenoid operations, and I can't remember who, but some one will, as I see them recommended all the time. They have a build in capacitive discharge system, which avoids burning out the solenoids, and has contacts to run indicator LED's. Looked like the safest way to go to me, especially the CD system, I just can't remember the name. You can use Digitrax DS-64's also, but the CD switches look about a 1000 times easier to install.


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## Yoppeh7J-UPmp954 (Nov 23, 2014)

Lemonhawak I think you are thinking about DCC Concepts AD-S2 fx, AD-S8 fx which have been superseded by the AD-S2sx and AD-S8sx. They will power more than on Peco solenoid as I use one unit to change 2 peco point motors on double crossovers at the same time. In addition to that you can operate them with your DCC controller and/or push button switches and they can power the frogs and power LED's.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I think Lemonhawk is referring to the Stapleton 751 series
turnout control switches. The twin coil version does have
a built in Capacitor Discharge Unit and does have
terminals to power panel and trackside signals.

Don


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## spikedrivingblues (Dec 11, 2018)

gregc said:


> there's a diagram ~halfway down on this page, Turnout Indicator Lights with Peco Switch Machines
> 
> this forum will not display the image directly. ?)


Thanks. That doesn't look difficult 

If I decide to do this I thought maybe I could use the bus line for power but that's AC so I will just need a DC power source


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