# Polar Express and O27?



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

My son currently has the Lionel Polar Express fastrack set and the Thomas fastrack set. I started building a 4' x 8' layout for Christmas with the intent that he can use it year round. The attached track layout is what I was planning (it seems like a really fun layout). I made a trip to the local hobby shop for the O27 track and he told me that the Polar Express would not run on O27 track because it is too tight of a turning radius. Needless to say I was bummed. I want to do this for my son, and I choose O27 because it is a fraction of the cost of Fastrack and I would be able to do more within my budget as opposed to just simply making an oval.

When I got home, I did a bit of research on the Polar Express running on O27. And all of the literature that I have found states that the Polar Express WILL run on O27. http://www.lionelstore.com/the-polar-express/the-polar-express-tm-o-gauge.html Can anyone confirm that the Polar Express will run on O27? Or if the layout that I have chosen will cause any problems with the Polar Express set?

Thank you in advance!


----------



## seabilliau (Dec 12, 2011)

Here is my PE running on my 4x4 O-27 layout. Runs just fine on 27.


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

It should run on O-27 with no problems. Another option is a slightly larger curve radius, such as O-31. Still cheaper than fastrack, but not as dangerous if you accidentally go too fast around a curve. It should also fit all right on your 4x8 table still.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

santafe158 said:


> It should run on O-27 with no problems. Another option is a slightly larger curve radius, such as O-31. Still cheaper than fastrack, but not as dangerous if you accidentally go too fast around a curve. It should also fit all right on your 4x8 table still.



I said this in another thread today.
O/27 is the smallest curve in the O/27 track which is 7/16" high.
O/31 is the smallest curve for O gauge track which is 11/16" high.

So you are telling him to mix O/27 and O track?

The 2 track don't mate because of the pin size and the height of the track.
You can fabricate up some pins and shim the O/27 track to the O.

a copy and paste,
tinplate track in O-27 profile is a very popular choice for smaller O-gauge layouts. The O27 series track dates from 1930s. The principal difference between the O27 and the regular O track is the diameter of the smallest curve: nominally 27 inches for O27 and 31 inches for regular O (in reality about 30 inches across the outside rails).


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I know the difference (I have been an O gauger for the past 14 years  ). I really meant to go with regular O gauge track with O-31 curves, not to mix the two. Sounds like he hasn't purchased anything yet, so it might work better in the long run.

Not sure how old your son is, but I know when I was young my dad had to buy me O-54 curves for my first set because I was always running it too fast for the O-27 and derailed it many times.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

santafe158 said:


> I know the difference (I have been an O gauger for the past 14 years  ). I really meant to go with regular O gauge track with O-31 curves, not to mix the two. Sounds like he hasn't purchased anything yet, so it might work better in the long run.
> 
> Not sure how old your son is, but I know when I was young my dad had to buy me O-54 curves for my first set because I was always running it too fast for the O-27 and derailed it many times.


You can mate the 2 if you fabricate up some pins and shim the O/27 up some. But the O/27 tube is a bit narrower then the O.

But you do know that you can get O/54 in the O/27 (7/16" high) style tube track?

They also make O/54 in the higher O style tube track (11/16" high), but O/54 is the largest curve in the O/27 (7/16" high) style tube track.

I agree if he has nothing go with the O. (11/16" high tube track)

There has been some confusion on this subject lately, O/27 and O/31 are 2 different heights.hwell:


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

big ed said:


> But you do know that you can get O/54 in the O/27 (7/16" high) style tube track?


Yeah, that's actually what I have for my first set. Not so sure you can fit a 54" curve on a 4' table though :laugh: That's why I recommended going with the regular O gauge track at 31", which would still leave some room around the perimeter in case of a derailment. Locomotives falling off a table is never a good thing (personal experience).

That being said, I'd also recommend putting a guard rail around the edge of the layout just to be safe.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

santafe158 said:


> Yeah, that's actually what I have for my first set. Not so sure you can fit a 54" curve on a 4' table though :laugh: That's why I recommended going with the regular O gauge track at 31", which would still leave some room around the perimeter in case of a derailment. Locomotives falling off a table is never a good thing (personal experience).
> 
> That being said, I'd also recommend putting a guard rail around the edge of the layout just to be safe.



No, 54" is 6" too big, O/42 would fit and be better. 3" to spare on either side.


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

big ed said:


> No, 54" is 6" too big, O/42 would fit and be better. 3" to spare on either side.


Yeah, O-42 would work great. 

I was thinking fastrack sizes, where O-48 is the first size bigger than O-36 and would be too big for a 4x8 table. Oops


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

santafe158 said:


> Yeah, O-42 would work great.
> 
> I was thinking fastrack sizes, where O-48 is the first size bigger than O-36 and would be too big for a 4x8 table. Oops



If you look at sea's first picture it will run on the O/27 curve but look at the car when it is going through the curve, it doesn't look right because of the tightness of the curve.
I think that is why they recommend a larger curve.

Even though it runs on the O/27 curve, the over hang looks funny.
Also I wonder if the cars would make it through the O/27 curved part of the switch OK? Or hit the side of it.


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

seabilliau said:


> Here is my PE running on my 4x4 O-27 layout. Runs just fine on 27.


Excellent! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> If you look at sea's first picture it will run on the O/27 curve but look at the car when it is going through the curve, it doesn't look right because of the tightness of the curve.
> I think that is why they recommend a larger curve.


I see your point and personally do not think that it is that bad, but the salesman explicitly said that the train would derail around the curve. 



big ed said:


> Even though it runs on the O/27 curve, the over hang looks funny.
> Also I wonder if the cars would make it through the O/27 curved part of the switch OK? Or hit the side of it.


I have an old O27 switch track from when I was a kid. I'll have to set it up and give a quick test. I'm not sure if I have enough for a complete loop though. Let's see what happens!


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> No, 54" is 6" too big, O/42 would fit and be better. 3" to spare on either side.


Great feedback! Thanks! I have to go back to the design and see what track to use. I'm now thinking O42, but I have to read up more on the track options between O and O27. If anyone can share any links, it would save me some time on my side! Thanks again all!


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

JoeFletch said:


> Great feedback! Thanks! I have to go back to the design and see what track to use. I'm now thinking O42, but I have to read up more on the track options between O and O27. If anyone can share any links, it would save me some time on my side! Thanks again all!



Check out this site it has a ton of info.
http://thortrains.hypermart.net/

It does have an excellent small track plans section too.
You would be surprised at what you could fit on an 4x8 board.

See if this works, a direct link to the 4x8 plans.
http://www.thortrains.net/marx/kdlay27a.html

By all means if you have something to ask feel free to ask here. There are no stupid questions. ( well almost none.)
Edit,
Yes the link works it goes directly to the small track page, but look around the site it does have some smaller plans and also some holiday plans.

Now that link is for the O/27 track if your thinking O track there is another page for that as with the O you will need a little more room for it.
This is the O page plan link,

 http://www.thortrains.net/marx/kdlay0a.html


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Many times the limitations on curve sizes ends up being the engine or cars hit switch machine motors on the curves. This is a problem with older Lionel switches with the big boxes on the side, not so much with stuff like Fastrack or Atlas switches that have no projections.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

SeaB --

That's the first time I'm seeing your "PE" painted logo on the face of your layout ... looks GREAT ... what a fun setup!

TJ


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> Check out this site it has a ton of info.
> http://thortrains.hypermart.net/
> 
> It does have an excellent small track plans section too.
> ...


I have been on the http://thortrains.hypermart.net/ a bit but I have never came across those links! Thanks again for sharing! More to think about!


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Many times the limitations on curve sizes ends up being the engine or cars hit switch machine motors on the curves. This is a problem with older Lionel switches with the big boxes on the side, not so much with stuff like Fastrack or Atlas switches that have no projections.


Good point. Would the following switches be safer to use since they appear to be missing the big control box on the side?

http://www.lionel.com/products/finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-14062

http://www.lionel.com/products/finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-14063


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, those are the classic Model 022 switch, just later cheapened versions. They have that large black box on the side, and the lantern sticks out of it. Those have the same issues as the O27 switches as far as hitting the switch machine, those black boxes stick up about an inch.

Oh, and those are O-31 profile rail, they do not work with O-27 track.


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually, those are the classic Model 022 switch, just later cheapened versions. They have that large black box on the side, and the lantern sticks out of it. Those have the same issues as the O27 switches as far as hitting the switch machine, those black boxes stick up about an inch.


Cheapened version? Why? Are they not reliable? These switches are expensive! (I still have not accepted that this is an expensive hobby!)



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Oh, and those are O-31 profile rail, they do not work with O-27 track.


Understood! I'm still going back and forth between the two types. I also noticed that O/27 is referenced as both 027 (the number zero) and O27 (the letter 'O'). Which is technically correct? I think that they are used interchangeably.

Any suggestions to online retailers that people use regularly for good prices and reliable shipping times?


----------



## seabilliau (Dec 12, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> SeaB --
> 
> That's the first time I'm seeing your "PE" painted logo on the face of your layout ... looks GREAT ... what a fun setup!
> 
> TJ


TJ,
Thanks. I've been working on it for a while and wanted to "show" it off after T-Day. I'll have more picks later after I take more pictures. I really wanted to get some more action ahots with figures and the train in different poses. Its a great little layout size (4'x4'), especially for a theme like Polar Express.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Edit, whoops I thought you were showing the O/72 switch.


Hey Joe if you don't have any track you might consider Fast track or Atlas like John said.
What your looking at is O gauge and they are fairly big.

Go do a search for Fast track and look at their switch sizes.

Here is fast track, notice it doesn't have the big part on it.
These are both an O/36 switch.













this is the same in Atlas,









The ones you show,
They take up a lot of room.

There is someone selling a pair of the O/72 switches you show, and other switches here on the site. He was.
But he flipped out here on the site and he might have put them on e bay by now. He is getting nothing for selling them and they are his mothers in law who is driving him nuts plus he had some problems here as he can't seem to grasp our rules for selling.
He won't put links to eBay I asked him to around 5 times. :dunno:

But I will vouch for him, as the stuff I got was like new and he shipped them out real quick. And I did get a good deal.:thumbsup:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

JoeFletch said:


> Cheapened version? Why? Are they not reliable? These switches are expensive! (I still have not accepted that this is an expensive hobby!)


First step is to accept this is an expensive hobby!  It's not as expensive as airplanes and boats, but it's still not cheap. One reason why a majority of my stuff comes used, I don't feel like paying new prices for this stuff!

As far as those particular switches, I prefer the older models, they were much more robust. 



> Understood! I'm still going back and forth between the two types. I also noticed that O/27 is referenced as both 027 (the number zero) and O27 (the letter 'O'). Which is technically correct? I think that they are used interchangeably.


Technically, the letter O is correct. However these particular switches in the 31" curve are model 022, that's with a zero.



> Any suggestions to online retailers that people use regularly for good prices and reliable shipping times?


There are many retailers, it really depends on what you're specifically buying. I think you need to develop a plan and a parts list for what you want. The 022 switches, for instance, can be had in the $40-50 a pair ballpark on the used market, a much better deal than the Lionel list prices for the new ones.


----------



## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> One reason why a majority of my stuff comes used, I don't feel like paying new prices for this stuff!


Same here. I bought an $900 Lionel JLC GG1 for $475 last year, barely used. In fact, I haven't bought a brand new locomotive since 2007 when I started adding to my O gauge collection :laugh:


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> Hey Joe if you don't have any track you might consider Fast track or Atlas like John said.
> What your looking at is O gauge and they are fairly big.
> 
> Go do a search for Fast track and look at their switch sizes.
> ...


I wanted to stay away from Fastrack because of the price point and my budget. I figured that I could get more for my money with regular O or O27 track.

I also want to keep the Fastrack that I have for dynamic floor layouts around the Christmas Tree!

Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

O-27 is dirt cheap, so you can get a lot for your money, that's for sure.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> O-27 is dirt cheap, so you can get a lot for your money, that's for sure.



Dirt is not so cheap anymore.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> Dirt is not so cheap anymore.


You want some? I can get dirt on anyone.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yes, I need around 10 cubes of top soil, delivered and spread out please.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's pickup only, but for $110/hr I deliver and spread.


----------



## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

big ed said:


> If you look at sea's first picture it will run on the O/27 curve but look at the car when it is going through the curve, it doesn't look right because of the tightness of the curve.
> I think that is why they recommend a larger curve.
> 
> Even though it runs on the O/27 curve, the over hang looks funny.
> Also I wonder if the cars would make it through the O/27 curved part of the switch OK? Or hit the side of it.


I have a couple of cars that are longer and can't do my inner loop on the O27 due to hitting the switch housing... actually if you watch carefully they just barely hit it and I have considered shaving it just slightly so they could make it.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's the most common issue.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> I have a couple of cars that are longer and can't do my inner loop on the O27 due to hitting the switch housing... actually if you watch carefully they just barely hit it and I have considered shaving it just slightly so they could make it.



I considered that too, it wouldn't take much shaving.
Then ask the TMan for some epoxy and fill it in smooth but rounded.

You wonder why they didn't mold them like that, I don't think there is anything under it there they would effect the operation of the switch.


----------



## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

Build a bigger table!


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

stevetil said:


> Build a bigger table!


A bigger table would not cure the problem of trains clearing the O/27 switches in a turn.
Unless you would be more specific. 
I know what your leading too.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, it might, you could put a strait section in to minimize the overhang at the switch.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, it might, you could put a strait section in to minimize the overhang at the switch.


HUH? 
A straight section would do nothing?

You would still have to negotiate going through the curve of the switch. And the piece of the switch where you hit will still be the same no matter what kind of track you hook up to it.
Nothing you do is going to minimize the switch. An O/27 switch is an O/27 switch.
That is why they recommend not using certain trains on the O/27 track, mainly because of the overhang going around curves and not being able to go through the curve of the O/27 switch without hitting the piece that sticks out. The straight section of the switch won't matter it is just the curved section you will have a problem.

What he was getting at is building a bigger table so you could use all O track and switches.:smokin:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, that's not true Ed. A long car could easily be off the end of the switch on the straight and it wouldn't have as much overhang. Try it.

I just tried it with Fastrack O36 (I have no O27), and even with a shorter car, a 12" passenger car, it makes a noticeable difference how far it hangs out. For O27, the difference would be much more pronounced.


----------



## stevetil (Sep 6, 2011)

big ed said:


> ... be more specific.
> I know what your leading to.


I was unable to copy the image in the original post on page 1.
It shows a traditional loop with figure 8 built in.
With 0-27 track and no straights in the turn back loops
it is only a little over 27" wide although almost 8 feet long.

He says he has a 4' x 8' table which could accommodate 0-42
curves and switches in width if it was closer to 10 feet long.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

stevetil said:


> I was unable to copy the image in the original post on page 1.
> It shows a traditional loop with figure 8 built in.
> With 0-27 track and no straights in the turn back loops
> it is only a little over 27" wide although almost 8 feet long.
> ...



I just went to the image and right clicked and picked copy image and came back here and pasted it.

I thought you meant go with all O?
With your explanation that is what you meant huh?

John, a straight would not matter with the O/27 switch, the car would still have to clear the switch? If the car is too long it will hit.

But next time I have my switch box out I will test your theory out.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John's theory is correct.


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

I wound up using 042 curve track with 4 022 switches and a cross. See attached picture.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nice! Track screwed down?

TJ


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Nice! Track screwed down?
> 
> TJ


Yes. I screwed the track down.

Tomorrow is my son's birthday. I can't wait to see how he reacts to this. He is used to running the trains in a simple loop during Christmas time. Now there are switches and the ability to reverse the train on this loop. Fun!


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

That's gonna be on happy kid!!!

Did you wire the criss-cross section on a "block" such that you can toggle power there on/off ... leave a loco parked there, while running one on the outer loop? Just curious.

TJ


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> That's gonna be on happy kid!!!


You bet!



tjcruiser said:


> Did you wire the criss-cross section on a "block" such that you can toggle power there on/off ... leave a loco parked there, while running one on the outer loop? Just curious.


No, I am not aware of this functionality. It does sounds interesting. Could you share a wiring link? But would that work properly? For example, if I have a loco in the outer loop and one in the cross section without power, then I turn power on in the cross section, will my transformer be able to power both trains safely? I guess if there is enough wattage available, but I am not sure.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Just a thought for you.

If you ever get some extra money and want more action, it looks like you could add an upper level fairly easy if you ever want to.
On Lionel trestles or better yet build your own overhead trestles.

Just something to think about while your detailing your layout with what ever your going to put on it.

Check out what the t man built, his table is 8x8 but you could do something like it on yours if you want.
Here is a link ,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=1672

The one upper level was all hand made out of wood, I think he has a thread on building them if you want I can look for it. Or maybe he will add it.

Just a thought for you to think about.


----------



## JoeFletch (Nov 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> Just a thought for you.
> 
> If you ever get some extra money and want more action, it looks like you could add an upper level fairly easy if you ever want to.
> On Lionel trestles or better yet build your own overhead trestles.
> ...


Wow! That is such a dense layout! There are some great ideas there! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

JoeFletch said:


> You bet!
> 
> 
> 
> No, I am not aware of this functionality. It does sounds interesting. Could you share a wiring link? But would that work properly? For example, if I have a loco in the outer loop and one in the cross section without power, then I turn power on in the cross section, will my transformer be able to power both trains safely? I guess if there is enough wattage available, but I am not sure.


Basically, yes, but with your track layout, I think the functionality would best allow turning a track section off (so you could have a loco parked), but allow you to run a train on the remainder. You could run a train 'round the figure-8, with a (short) train parked on the straight-section between a pair of switches, too.

To wire something like this, you need insulating pins (rather than metal pins) on the middle rail between each intended "block" section. The outer rails can be common and connected throughout the layout, and connected back directly to the transformer. Power to each block's middle rail is lead from the transformer (then typically to a terminal strip), to a simple on/off toggle switch (one for each block), and then to that block's center rail.

Here's an example of the blocks I set up on my very simple O layout:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3469

Cheers,

TJ


----------

