# If coal use disappears ?



## 65446

Coal use is becoming less and less due to environmental laws. 
industries are finding new ways to power up..
Will this lead to the demise or near demise of freight trains and maybe even passenger lines ? Unless I'm wrong I believe coal is the #1 commodity that trains haul..I hope I'm wrong...M


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## wvgca

Coal is still used a lot in power generation ...and it's expensive to replace the generating plants ..


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## Dennis461

40% reduction in past 10 years. Cheap gas (not gasoline) has cut deeply into electricity generation by coal and nuclear.

And new generating plants, although expensive are considered capital improvements, as opposed to maintenance, so cost is born by customers directly.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/planetpolicy/2019/01/16/why-theres-no-bringing-coal-back/


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## rogruth

A lot of coal is shipped out of this country so coal trains will probably be around for awhile.


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## bigdodgetrain

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/clean-coal.htm


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## rogruth

bigdodgetrain said:


> https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/clean-coal.htm


The anti fossil fuels groups do not want to admit this.


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## Chaostrain

Here's more information the anti fossil fuels groups don't want to admit.

https://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/construction/materials/fly-ash-concrete.htm


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## 65446

Guys, your replies are nice. But I'm just asking: Will the lowering use of coal prove to be the lowered use of trains ? Hypothetically, if coal became completely useless will it affect RRs to a point of demise ? Or, is coal not as big a piece of the pie as I think ?


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## rogruth

I have not done research on this, just personal observation, but it may depend on the part
of the country that they are in.


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## Lehigh74

telltale said:


> Guys, your replies are nice. But I'm just asking: Will the lowering use of coal prove to be the lowered use of trains ? Hypothetically, if coal became completely useless will it affect RRs to a point of demise ? Or, is coal not as big a piece of the pie as I think ?


Reduction in coal use has and will affect the railroads. Some more than others. But I don’t think coal will disappear. And while reduction in coal use may have a significant impact on some short lines that haul mainly coal, it won’t lead to the demise of any class 1 railroads. They haul other freight such as intermodal which is increasing. Trains mag did an article recently on the changing percentages of various types of freight.

Not sure why you included passenger lines in the question. I think the interstate highway system and government subsidies of airports pretty much did them in years ago.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Here's what one would presume is a fairly accurate statement of coal shipments.

Coal In Decline: The Impact on Railroads


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## Lehigh74

The Trains article was a bit less pessimistic. But then, the NRLC looks like it's function is to give the railroads a better bargaining position in labor negotiations.


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## Fire21

telltale said:


> Hypothetically, if coal became completely useless will it affect RRs to a point of demise ? Or, is coal not as big a piece of the pie as I think ?


 Coal is a huge piece of the pie, but isn't the whole pie. RRs still will be hauling manufactured goods, grains, ores, military, passengers, building materials, and more. Certainly some RRs will be severely affected. Likely we'd see another round of buy-outs and mergers. But the RR industry would survive, in my opinion.

And the less freight traffic, the more time and space for passenger trains!


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## rogruth

My opinion. If less freight trains the prices of transported goods will rise.
Americans, people who live in the U.S., have little interest in rail travel outside the big city areas and even less interest in long distance rail travel.

I really like rail travel but don't use it because it does not go where I want to go.


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## 65446

Lehigh74 said:


> Reduction in coal use has and will affect the railroads. Some more than others. But I don’t think coal will disappear. And while reduction in coal use may have a significant impact on some short lines that haul mainly coal, it won’t lead to the demise of any class 1 railroads. They haul other freight such as intermodal which is increasing. Trains mag did an article recently on the changing percentages of various types of freight.
> 
> Not sure why you included passenger lines in the question. I think the interstate highway system and government subsidies of airports pretty much did them in years ago.


Bob, reason is, since coal haulage is the main income for US RRs, then passenger lines may not be able to survive the impact of that. 
Please refer to 'gunrunnerjohn's 'Coal in Decline' (above) 6:57 AM.. This is what I'm worried about.


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## Severn

No they be shipping liquified natural gas.


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## J.Albert1949

"Coal use" isn't going to disappear, despite the best effort of the greenies to eradicate it.

It's just too vital a component of the power-generation system.

Nuclear is no longer commercially viable nor publicly "acceptable", particularly after the Japanese disaster. Few if any new-construction nuclear plants are going to happen in our lifetimes.

Natural gas seems to be working for now, but eventually the gas fields will "play out". What supplies remain will eventually be needed more for residential and commercial/industrial applications.

Solar and wind?
That's laughable.
Both of these industries have to be heavily subsidized by the government, and both require some kind of "fossil fuel backups" to keep electricity online when the wind ain't blowin' and the sun ain't shinin'.

That leaves coal.
There's at least 400-500 years of it "in the ground".
It's become technically possible to reduce most (I said "most", not "all") of the emissions during power generation.
It's easily accessible, transportable, and -- unlike natural gas -- it can be stockpiled by utilities if necessary.

Coal ain't goin' nowhere.


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## Severn

the problem is solar cell efficiency keeps going up ... it's nearish 20% efficient right now in commercial panels. it may then just be very much cheaper to build solar panels for example than strip mine, etc... certainly if one imagines the efficiency will continue to improve, at some point it will be cheaper.


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## Jscullans

I can say I think I’ve seen a handful of coal trains on the bnsf main line that’s behind my house in the last few years. Granted I don’t see every single train but the trains are primarily intermodal here other than the couple locals that run through here and the few trains on the Norfolk southern interchange but those are primarily crude oil unit trains or mixed freights. My town gets an average of 200 trains daily so I severely doubt it will slow down traffic near my house if coal mining completely ceased. I hope this answers your question. Coal may be the most shipped item but the big class 1 roads will always have other work


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## tbarber1027

*Coal use is becoming less and less...*



telltale said:


> Coal use is becoming less and less due to environmental laws.
> industries are finding new ways to power up..
> Will this lead to the demise or near demise of freight trains and maybe even passenger lines ? Unless I'm wrong I believe coal is the #1 commodity that trains haul..I hope I'm wrong...M


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The planet and the atmosphere benefit from reduced coal use. Model RR people win because we will still have clean air to breathe. The evolution of technology affects every industry and product on the planet. This is normal and natural. There are MANY things for freight trains to ship worldwide even without coal shipments. Passenger trains seem to be in a whole different category.


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## Waddy

Without the fly ash produced by coal burning good luck making asphalt.


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## tbarber1027

Waddy said:


> Without the fly ash produced by coal burning good luck making asphalt.


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The smart chemical engineers will have to come up with a solution for us, as they did with the catalytic converter for cars that turns poisonous gas into water vapor!


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## lorettospringfield

I think the President took that off and opened the coal industry back up. I fish the Ohio River it used to be dead along the river but not anymore the coal is being barged up and down. The electric plant at Kosmodale is again running using coal. I watched them unload a barge and they had several lined up, it makes for some good fishing around those. Needless to say I was happy to see the plant and the industry booming again it was beautiful at night the whole river was lit up didn't even need a night light.


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## wvgca

Waddy said:


> Without the fly ash produced by coal burning good luck making asphalt.



As well as concrete, it's a rather important part of either one ...


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## tbarber1027

*a pic in your profile?*



wvgca said:


> As well as concrete, it's a rather important part of either one ...


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How did you get a pic in your profile?


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## gunrunnerjohn

tbarber1027 said:


> -----
> How did you get a pic in your profile?


Click on the UserCP link in the bar at the top of the page. On the left side, click on the Edit Profile Picture.

_*Note: The maximum size of your custom image is 100 by 100 pixels or 64.0 KB (whichever is smaller). *_


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## rkenney

Chaostrain said:


> Here's more information the anti fossil fuels groups don't want to admit.
> 
> https://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/construction/materials/fly-ash-concrete.htm


Interesting article. Back when coal was King we had another byproduct construction material. Cinder-block. I still see it from time to time in 1930-1950 era homes. Coal cinders occured from steam locomotive operation and coal furnaces that heated most of urban America.

I still hear people refer to concrete block as cinder block but its obvious the material to create cinder block is no more in the quantities needed.


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## 65446

Very very belated thanks for all the replies....M


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