# N gauge analog layout short



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

I have one power pack and three DPDT switches. one DPDT for the main line and the other tow for reverse loops. The simple reverse loop is fine but the main and the other reverse loop show a short. Any suggestions to fix?

DM K


----------



## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Well, for starters, is the offending reverse loop properly insulated, in the proper places, from the main line?

A pic. or diagram of your track plan might help to diagnose.


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

Please note that the main line is also shorting.


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Could be caused by power routing turnouts if you are using power feeders on all tracks. I ran into that issue. I am using Peco Insulfrogs which are power routing, but using DCC, I wanted all tracks powered all the time. I had to gap the frog rails to eliminate the short.


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> Could be caused by power routing turnouts if you are using power feeders on all tracks. I ran into that issue. I am using Peco Insulfrogs which are power routing, but using DCC, I wanted all tracks powered all the time. I had to gap the frog rails to eliminate the short.


I am using atlas turnouts, plastic insulators and mostly Atlas flex 80 track

DMK


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Atlas Code 80.. That's N scale, correct? I believe Atlas N scale turnouts are power routing (but not really sure). Try removing or disconnecting the power feeders to your diverging tracks and see if the short goes away.


----------



## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Dave Kitch said:


> Please note that the main line is also shorting.


If your insulated track joiners are not in the proper places on the reverse loop that's shorting out, it goes without saying that it is shorting out with the main line. Which means of course, that the main line is also shorting out. This is but one possibility of several that could be causing the short.

That's why a picture, sketch, or diagram of your layout, showing the insulated track joiner locations, could come in handy. I believe that's what the guy in post #2 was trying to get at.

Since you have successfully got one reverse loop wired up to a DPDT electrical switch, it is assumed that you properly wired up the other two electrical switches, which is why that guy in post #2 didn't mention it. However, if you didn't wire them properly, this could be another possibility for your electrical short.

Regardless, that's why a picture, sketch, or diagram of your layout, showing the insulated track joiner locations, could come in handy. I believe that's what the guy in post #2 was trying to get at.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A late blooming echo...we need your track plan showing
where you have insulated joiners. Also, show
us how you have wired your DPDT toggles and where
you connect them to the tracks. Reverse loops can
be tricky, and awkward in DC. 

Don


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

DonR said:


> A late blooming echo...we need your track plan showing
> where you have insulated joiners. Also, show
> us how you have wired your DPDT toggles and where
> you connect them to the tracks. Reverse loops can
> ...


I checked all of the plastic insulated joiner sections and behold: The reverse loop that is working is properly insulated. However, many other joints insulated with the Atlas insulated joiners are not insulating thus causing the shorts. I will try to fix this with the insulated rail joiners, checking for insulation as I go.

DMK


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

Dave Kitch said:


> I checked all of the plastic insulated joiner sections and behold: The reverse loop that is working is properly insulated. However, many other joints insulated with the Atlas insulated joiners are not insulating thus causing the shorts. I will try to fix this with the insulated rail joiners, checking for insulation as I go.
> 
> DMK


What is confusing me is that I used a DVM to check continuity in the rail before the insulated joiner and the resistance is the same. Pictures of the rails below. The one reverse loop that is working has both sets of insulated joiners working.
DMK


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I notice that only the diverging frog rail is insulated. You have both rails of the diverging route insulated, which is great if that point marks the beginning of the loop you want to isolate. But the straight route may also need its frog rail insulated also. That route may be the source of a short depending on what's down stream of that junction.


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> I notice that only the diverging frog rail is insulated. You have both rails of the diverging route insulated, which is great if that point marks the beginning of the loop you want to isolate. But the straight route may also need its frog rail insulated also. That route may be the source of a short depending on what's down stream of that junction.



Thanks but why then am I getting the same resistance reading across an insulated joint?

DMK


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Because the short is track-wide. I think you are fixating on the insulated joiners not working, but the short could be caused at a different point.

Try disconnecting the through route from your turnouts one at a time and see if the short goes away. This can also be accomplished by disconnecting the feeder wires from the bus.

Question: Do you have sidings like this? Doesn't have to be on a curve, just a siding where a train can pull off the main line, then merge back onto it.









With power routing turnouts, you can get a short if you 1) have a power feeder anywhere along either route between the turnouts, and 2) don't insulate both frog rails on each turnout.

Edit to add: For me, it was simpler to add a feeder on every side of every turnout, and insulate both frog rails on all turnouts.... It was simpler than trying to figure out exactly which ones actually needed insulated. It took a little time, but it was worth it in the long run.

In the illustration above, if you follow each rail as black or red, you can see the conflict at the frog when either turnout is set to put the train on the diverging route.


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> Because the short is track-wide. I think you are fixating on the insulated joiners not working, but the short could be caused at a different point.
> 
> Try disconnecting the through route from your turnouts one at a time and see if the short goes away. This can also be accomplished by disconnecting the feeder wires from the bus.
> 
> ...



Jeff,
I have these kind of sidings. Will check your comment.

Thanks,
DMK


----------



## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I hope it works. I had the issue I describe, and it took me a good week or 2 to figure it out. It's possible that this isn't the cause of your short, but it could well be.


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

JeffHurl said:


> I hope it works. I had the issue I describe, and it took me a good week or 2 to figure it out. It's possible that this isn't the cause of your short, but it could well be.


Jeff,
Thanks
DMK


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Atlas Code 80.. That's N scale, correct? I believe Atlas N scale turnouts are power routing (but not really sure). Try removing or disconnecting the power feeders to your diverging tracks and see if the short goes away.





JeffHurl said:


> Atlas Code 80.. That's N scale, correct? I believe Atlas N scale turnouts are power routing (but not really sure). Try removing or disconnecting the power feeders to your diverging tracks and see if the short goes away.


Jeff;

Atlas N-scale turnouts are not power routing.

Traction Fan 🙂


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

Jeff,

Traction fan is correct. Standard Atlas code 80 turnouts are not power routing. Frogs are insulated. I assume that negates your comments?

DMK


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

if you are still experiencing shorts please
show us your track plan and how you have
the reverse loops wired to DPDT toggles.

Don


----------



## Dave Kitch (Apr 20, 2021)

DonR said:


> if you are still experiencing shorts please
> show us your track plan and how you have
> the reverse loops wired to DPDT toggles.
> 
> Don


I fixed my problem. one of the main line feeds had the wires reversed. 

Thanks,
DMK


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Dave Kitch said:


> I fixed my problem. one of the main line feeds had the wires reversed.
> 
> Thanks,
> DMK


Dave;
Glad to hear you fixed the problem. 

Traction Fan 🙂


----------

