# Curved turnout question



## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Do they make an extension like they do for the straight switches for these curved turnouts,to move the machine away from the tracks? 
If I could use one going into the steam yard it would tighten up the entry, move it back more & lengthen all my sidings, a lot of benefits, I might even remove the machine & make it manual somehow, I think it would be worth it.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

K, took it apart, even manual will need some kind of throw bar added to flip it.
Took out an under the board machine for a right hand switch(only have right side machines) Don't see why right or left matters it looks like you set it under the center of the throw bar anyway.
Will wait till I see if they actually make an extension piece before I booger it up!  Rich.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Under table dose not make any difference for left and right.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Are they different then the machine I just showed?
Got a link to someone who shows atlas parts I could peruse? Rich.


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

The picture your showing is an under table switch machine, left or right does not matter. I have quite a few in my layout. Just mark the center of your track and center of movement on the turnout, mark it, drill (I used) a 7/16 or 1/2" hole at that point, center the turnout with a toothpick, small pieces of plastic just something to hold it centered, line up your machine under the table, temp fasten it in place, check for full movement on turnout and fasten it down, wire it up and your set.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

OK, all 3 I have are marked right hand, didn't make sense to me if it's centered, might have to wire backwards to get your direction other than that it shouldn't matter? 
Thanks for the confermation, simce the switch is already in place I have to make it work! Rich.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

OK another problem, seems the curved turnouts all work on the black wire side , but won't switch back, tried 3 diffferent machines, two different controls & jumping directly to a hot & ground . I must be doing something wrong I can't believe all 3 would be bad & have the same problem??


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## thetramp (Dec 14, 2012)

That is the same problem I have with one of my switches. It works fine for a while than won't switch back to the straight position. I put a dab of oil in the slot and it helped but it is back to the same thing. I tried different push button controllers without solving the problem. I want to change the switch machine.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

That is one of the resones that I am switching to Peco.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Prolly the solenoid inside the switch machine. I'd spray WD-40 into the machine and if that didn't work I'd throw the damned thing out and get a new one. Pete


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

I managed to tweek the tracks again & get the one on the outter loop off the table, the one to the steam yard will be the under the table machine, so I have one left in the freight yard, if the under the table thing works I'll do that one two, problem solved(I hope) 
I'll try wd, but there's no hum, no click, I think the problems electrical.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Took out the 4th curved turnout, same thing, I'm gonna see if i can pop one open & see what makes it NOT tic!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Rusty

If your actual turnout has no binding, you
may have one burned out coil on your switch machine...easy to
do with those Atlases...if you have a multi meter, set it to read resistance
and check from the center terminal to each of the sides...no reading on one side
means your coil went pffft. Hope you are using capacitor discharge to
power your turnouts. They protect those delicate coils.

Don


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## thetramp (Dec 14, 2012)

What is a capacitor discharge and where do up put it?


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

Rusty, just a question but are you using the Peco curved turnouts with the spring in them? If you are the atlas switch maybe working and just bending the plastic rod. The rod is not strong enough to over come the spring. I had that problem on one of mine. I had to switch to Peco PL-10E switches and to get the two curved turnouts I have working correctly.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Really don't know, but even off the track it switches one way but will not go back, funny that all four have broken the exact same way, gonna test with the meter again, last time I got feed back black to red, but not either to green, which also seemed odd to me.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Better check on a few things before going further. You may be burning out the coils! 

These are not very strudry and burn out ptetty easy. CAUTION!!! 

Don't want to seem to be rude but can we check some things? In the interest of saving you money, I have some questions. 

What kind of power source are you using and how are you switching it? The power needs to be applied just for a short time, not full time like some switch machines. If the power is too strong or left on for a little too long, the tiny wire in the machine can heat and burn in two.


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't think thats the problem, all my straight turnouts work fine, using the atlas controls, slide & press.
It's on the accessory terminals of the hogger.


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

RUSTY Cuda said:


> Really don't know, but even off the track it switches one way but will not go back, funny that all four have broken the exact same way, gonna test with the meter again, last time I got feed back black to red, but not either to green, which also seemed odd to me.


I've had problems with switches like this before. I have found that the pieces of rail in the switch that moves is binding with the piece of rail that is stationary. It moves very little, almost invisibly.
There is a square piece of metal attached to the end of the movable rail with a square end on it. It is this end that is riveted to the base. The edge of the square end runs under the stationary rail.
This is where the problem is. the square plate pushes up into the bottom of the stationary rail causing it to bind and act as a spring.
You need to take a punch and lightly punch the square end pushing it down ever so slightly and moving it away from underside of the stationary rail. This should free up the switch so it will turn freely in both directions.

Ray


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The Tramp

A capacitor discharge circuit provides a momentary
burst of power to your switch machine coils. It then
recharges awaiting your next turnout operation. This
momentary pulse protects the coils in the switch
machines from burnout due to a stuck button or accidentally pushing
it too long. It uses a couple diodes, a transistor, a capacitor and a
resistor, inexpensive parts from Radio Shack. GunrunnerJohn
or NIMT could post the FAST RECHARGE schematic for you. I have it
but too computer dumb to know how to post it.

Don


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

Ktcards, I took the machine off the track, still does the same thing.
I installed the under table machine & it works, so at least I can use the 2 that are still on the board, I'm still gonna mess with those machines, want to know what went bad , just curious now! Rich.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

My way to go would be to take the switch machine off the switch and look at it moving by itself. That will tell you if you have a switch binding or a switch machine problem. Could be either. 
One of the reasons I no longer use electrical switching when I can avoid it is the number of problems like this that are just a drag when they come up over and over. Once I got into adding scenery and all the goop that involves, it became a nuisance that I wanted to move away from where I can. I now use manual Caboose Industries ground throws as I like the feel and operation of actually moving to the switch and throwing it as if I were the switchman. 
The capacitive discharge is a good move for anybody into that sort of thing. I think of a capacitor being somewhat like a balloon. You pump it up and then when it gets the right move, it releases the current as a short burst and then refills. This short burst can have a lot more "grunt" to move the switch but still not overheat the coil. One cap system will do for most layouts for all the switches. It wires in between the power supply and the switches which control the switch machines.
Stall motor type machines are great but they can also get quite expensive and do have their own special little problems.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

When you tear it down, you might want to look at where the tiny little wires connect to the screw terminals. If the terminal is loose in the plastic, it can turn just enough to break the wire. That can sometimes be fixed by reattaching the wire--- With luck!!


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

DonR said:


> The Tramp
> 
> A capacitor discharge circuit provides a momentary
> burst of power to your switch machine coils. It then
> ...


A switch machine is a accessory. Accessories are generally designed to be run from the A.C. side of the transformer. I have been using an old Marx A.C. transformer to power my switches and have been able to reduce the voltage to 5 volts with no noticeable loss in performance.

Ray


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ray

Yes...the Atlas switch machines can run on AC...but a stuck
AC button will burn out a coil also...the Capacitor discharge
circuit uses the accessory AC and converts it to a DC
pulse to operate the machine, which discharges the
capacitor. When the button is released it immediately
recharges for the next turnout operation. It is like
taking out insurance on a valuable...you don't need it
until you do. It's cheap and simple to build...one unit
will power all of your turnouts.

Don


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

This is beyond my skill level, got it apart I can't get readings anywhere, one spot on the circuit board shows continuity.
even if I touch the opposite ends of the coils, nothin, poked around in there a while, but only the one side will work.
Now tell me how can they have all 4 wires to the coils run together in that one bay, are those little copper wires actually coated with insulaton?


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

DonR said:


> Ray
> 
> Yes...the Atlas switch machines can run on AC...but a stuck
> AC button will burn out a coil also...the Capacitor discharge
> ...


I am interested in seeing how this works.
My A.C. circuit is only 5 volts, just enough to activate the switch, and I have my switches wired in pairs on the mail line.
Your capacitor discharge circuit is based on a rectifier which puts out D.C. + no matter how it is hooked up. The capacitor charges up and maintains full power as long as it is hooked to a power source (The rectifier) and will slowly lose it when disconnected.
The capacitor needs the rectifier since if you reverse the voltage on a capacitor you will destroy it.
I use this circuit to for the headlights on my engines It powers a LED which doesn't flicker when rolling across switches and bad spots on the track and comes on at full power before the engine starts to move.

Ray


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

RUSTY Cuda said:


> This is beyond my skill level, got it apart I can't get readings anywhere, one spot on the circuit board shows continuity.
> even if I touch the opposite ends of the coils, nothin, poked around in there a while, but only the one side will work.
> Now tell me how can they have all 4 wires to the coils run together in that one bay, are those little copper wires actually coated with insulaton?


The wires are insulated (Painted) so your meter wouldn't have much chance of picking up any readings. The only place you could get a reading is the three wires connecting it to the power source (the red black and green wires).

Ray


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ray

Not sure you are understanding the cap discharge circuit.

Source power is AC (from accessory on power pack)..the diodes pass current only in one direction thus the capacitor only sees DC. It is always
'connected'. When you push a turnout button you release the
capacitors charge to the switch machine. It's a short
pulse. When you release the button the
capacitor recharges ready for the next operation. Many
of the guys have used cap discharge for years to protect
their switch machines.

5 volts is kinda low but if your machines operate 
that's all you need.

Don


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## ktcards (Sep 22, 2012)

DonR said:


> Ray
> 
> Not sure you are understanding the cap discharge circuit.
> 
> ...


The circuits that I have been using use a bridge rectifier in place of the diode. A bridge rectifier is four diodes pre-wired into a bridge. The advantage is that it is pre-wired in one unit and the input can be A.C., D.C.+ or D.C.- and it will convert all of them into D.C.+. This protects the capacitor by always providing the proper polarity for the capacitor no matter what the power source.

When you charge a capacitor, whether by a diode or a bridge rectifier, the function of the capacitor is to smooth out the power flow and to fill in any gaps in the power supply. It acts like a little rechargeable battery.

My question is where do you wire the turnout switch into the circuit? If it draws it power from the wires running between the bridge rectifier and the capacitor it would be running at full power all the time. If it was leading into the diode or bridge rectifier, momentarily energizing the circuit, the capacitor would only be energized while the turnout switch was pressed and would continue to provide power for several seconds after the turnout switch is released.

You would need a circuit that would connect to the capacitor, energize it, disconnect from the capacitor, and wait from the turnout switch to be pressed to discharge the capacitor and then connect back to the power source to recharge the capacitor.

Ray


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ray

We ought to start a different thread...kinda horned in on
Rusty's turnout mechanical/electrical problems...

But I'm feeling kinda horny, so plying ahead.

For the DC powering of the turnouts you don't need
a full bridge rectifier...the schematic I use from a Model
Railroad electronics book (Kalmbach) it's what they call
the fast recharge using a transistor. However there 
is a simple circuit. One side of AC goes to a
diode in series with a 470 ohm resistor to which the + a 2,200 uF 25v
capacitor is connected. It's negative is to common for all of the
turnout motors and one side of AC input. The turnout pushbuttons
are all connected to the circuit at + side of the capacitor. 

Wish I had the computer brains to post the schematic.
Thot it was on the forum but a search doesn't find it.

Don


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## RUSTY Cuda (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm pretty much done here , the only thing I think I could try is taking the coils out of a straight turnout & seeing if they fit, BUT I only have one spare machine, don't want to waste it or even worse ruin both, I think I'll just go with the under table machines & leave it at that! 
So hyjack away we'll turn it into the capacitor post !


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