# Tray ceiling layout and safety concerns



## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

Hi,
I am a new forum member from Vermont, just wrote a brief post to the new member introduction.

My wife wants to have a train going around the weird "tray ceiling" (I think that's what it's called) of our bedroom. The trim is wide enough, except that I would have to come up with some support for the curves in the corners. My initial thought was that O scale would be about right. It would give me an excuse to finally buy some Lionel stuff. 

But I worry about safety. What if the heavy die cast steam engine derails and comes crashing down onto us? What are the chances of this ever happening? Well, the latter probably depends a lot on how flat the track is, how well the rounded corners are supported etc. Is this a realistic concern? Even if I buy all plastic stuff (Diesel locomotives, passenger commuters etc.) the trains still weigh quite a bit, no? Any way to catch the trains to keep them from from falling? Would it be better to stick with HO for safety reasons?

Thanks in advance,
Wolfgang


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

O Guage? I understand O Guage and O scale are two very different things, I'm not knowledgeable on it though. 

I would think HO would be a tight fit for those curves, anything larger would be worse. 

As to the train falling...I would try and incorporate some sort of fence or railing for it. 

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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

It is certainly do-able because I’ve seen restaurants do the same with G scale. 

I would suggest, as per what I’ve seen done mentioned already; use nice hardwood boards as they are less likely to warp. Staining them nicely reduces that further. You can do 90 degree turns using a high quality plywood layered to match needed thickness, or segments of straight board with dowels in the ends.
I’ve seen them supported with wooden brackets, stained also. You don’t have much room below, so the brackets would have to have an orientation such as L instead of F. 
A clear plastic barrier would work well as a derail guard. Sheet acrylic in the 16ths measurement range. 1/8th would be too thick to bend.

Your concerns about securing things is unfounded. That soffit is made from 2x4s. All you need to do is mark where the studs are and mount the brackets to the studs. You can find them (find the drywall screws rather) by dragging a magnet along the drywall until it sticks. A refrigerator magnet probably won’t do the job. Use a rare earth magnet. As the soffit is cosmetic and not structural, the studs may not be exactly 16” or 24” spacing. So I would not assume their locations from finding one. I.e. They could be 16-16-16-24. Or 16-16-18-16.

All that is elementary dear Watson. The real question is how to get power from the controller up to the tracks without fouling up that nice ambience in the bedroom? A wireless method might work. The receiver would need power though I believe. I’ve never used wirelesscontrol but someone here who does will be able to fill in those blanks. I would figure out theplan to control things before building anything, as you may need one corner to be a solid shelf to the corner for things to sit. Alternatively if you can get into the attic, it’s a cinch to install a 120v duplex up there powered by a wall switch. With train speed controls set, you just turn the train on/off that way… Unless you have some desire to speed up and slow down. That would be the nicest, cleanest way, just like turning on a light.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The photo of your tray ceiling looks a lot like the avatar of another forum member with a ceiling layout. Here are links to a few of his threads. You can also do an advanced search for “ceiling” and select O gauge. There are many threads on the subject. I think if there are no switches, the cars are of the proper weight and the track is laid well, there is little chance of a derailment. In my opinion, O gauge is less likely to derail than HO.

Are All Diesels Lightweight? | Model Train Forum

Airstreaming The Rails with Big Boy 4020 | Model Train Forum


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> It is certainly do-able because I’ve seen restaurants do the same with G scale.
> 
> I would suggest, as per what I’ve seen done mentioned already; use nice hardwood boards as they are less likely to warp. Staining them nicely reduces that further. You can do 90 degree turns using a high quality plywood layered to match needed thickness, or segments of straight board with dowels in the ends.
> I’ve seen them supported with wooden brackets, stained also. You don’t have much room below, so the brackets would have to have an orientation such as L instead of F.
> ...


Thank you. As a matter of fact, there is already an outlet up there, controlled by a wall switch. The previous owners had an LED light string in place. A small enough transformer can be hidden. So it should be doable to have a clean looking installation.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

And correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t some Lionel equipment have wheels that have a weak magnetic bond to the rails? Between HO and O, in this case I agree O is the way to go.

One other thing I might suggest, due to the soffit & ceiling, cork roadbed or a felt under layment will be a good idea. Sound is going to bounce off those surfaces, making it louder than it would be otherwise. Sound deadening will be extra important under the circumstances.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I don't think Magne-Traction is going to prevent derailments. If you keep the speed reasonable, you should be OK with or without Magne-Traction. If you get them going too fast, they will fly off the curves.
As for sound, do *NOT* use Fastrack.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> And correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t some Lionel equipment have wheels that have a weak magnetic bond to the rails? Between HO and O, in this case I agree O is the way to go.
> 
> One other thing I might suggest, due to the soffit & ceiling, cork roadbed or a felt under layment will be a good idea. Sound is going to bounce off those surfaces, making it louder than it would be otherwise. Sound deadening will be extra important under the circumstances.


That's a great idea. I am also thinking of going with regular metal track rather than Fasttrack(sp?) because I read that the latter is much louder. Noise could indeed be an issue with the framing and drywall up there.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

hogges said:


> That's a great idea. I am also thinking of going with regular metal track rather than Fasttrack(sp?) because I read that the latter is much louder. Noise could indeed be an issue with the framing and drywall up there.


You going to be running dcc or DC?

If you are running dcc you coukd run a cab bus down the wall so you have a plug in where ever you want. Or if you have telephone wires from the room if your not using and they go up to tortoises attic u could just tap into that.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

Conductorkev said:


> You going to be running dcc or DC?
> 
> If you are running dcc you coukd run a cab bus down the wall so you have a plug in where ever you want. Or if you have telephone wires from the room if your not using and they go up to tortoises attic u could just tap into that.


This is where I have to show the full extent of my ignorance: I don't know what DC and DCC stand for. Some kind of digital control? 

All my trains (Z, HO and G gauge) so far require the turn of a knob to start, stop or change the speed. For this setup, I assumed that it's either going to just run when I flick the wall switch, or I use the LionChief remote controls coming with the newer engines.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

hogges said:


> This is where I have to show the full extent of my ignorance: I don't know what DC and DCC stand for. Some kind of digital control?
> 
> All my trains (Z, HO and G gauge) so far require the turn of a knob to start, stop or change the speed. For this setup, I assumed that it's either going to just run when I flick the wall switch, or I use the LionChief remote controls coming with the newer engines.



DC is with the knoob controls. Dcc is like you said digital control which from what you are wanting to do with the layout wouldn't be necessary unless you wanted multiple trains going plus it would be costly since you do not own one of the systems that run dcc.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Yeah, I agree. For what you are looking for, I would stick with the traditional DC system... turn the knob to control speed, push a button to change direction.

I originally got into N scale back in the early 90's because I was going to do a ceiling layout kind of like you are thinking about. At the time, our Family room had trim like yours and we had a bunch of Cat's Meow buildings as a border. We were going to have the train run in front of all those buildings. But, kids came along and my priorities changed, lol


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> Yeah, I agree. For what you are looking for, I would stick with the traditional DC system... turn the knob to control speed, push a button to change direction.
> 
> I originally got into N scale back in the early 90's because I was going to do a ceiling layout kind of like you are thinking about. At the time, our Family room had trim like yours and we had a bunch of Cat's Meow buildings as a border. We were going to have the train run in front of all those buildings. But, kids came along and my priorities changed, lol


Yes, I'll support that as well. For what you want, DCC is an unnecessary expense that would add nothing to your layout.

This kind of thing is not new, as others have pointed out. Someone mentioned that HO is more likely to derail than O, which I think is mistaken (although the heavier a train is, the more likely it is to stay on the rails.

While I appreciate your concern about a heavy object that high up, I really don't think it is a huge risk. If the shelf doesn't already have a lip, create about a 2" high one out of lexan or other clear acrylics. Since "plexiglass" shields are fairly common these days, you could probably find someplace that would make you one fairly cheaply. Unless you're planning on running things at super high speeds, this "fence" will keep things up there. You may want to create clear shelves for the corners, too.

Two other issues you will have are cleanliness and power. You can run a cable conduit up the wall to hide your wires to the power pack. Personally, I would run a pair of 14 gauge bus wires from the power pack around the walls, and place 16 or 18 gauge feeders from that to your actual track every 8 to 10 feet or so. 

And you will have to keep it clean up there (especially if that is a real fireplace and you burn wood). Dirt is the enemy of electric trains. Have an idea for how you're going to manage that before you install anything.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Next to G-scale, O-gauge trains would be the easiest to see from anywhere in the room. If you can't really see the track, then good ol' Lionel-type tubular track is probably the least expensive and quietest option. Using some cork roadbed or similar would also help lend to quietness.

I would imagine your "tray ceiling trim" (or whatever it's called) should be more adequately attached to the walls, as it PROBABLY was designed to carry a small load of knick-knacks or anything else a person may want to set on it as decorations around the room. However, you would need to confirm this yourself, just to be safe.

O-gauge trains have deep flanges, so staying on the rails is relatively easy for them. Two things you need for reliable operation are good track work (so the train stays on the rails) and good couplers on all the equipment (so the train doesn't break apart while running).


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Yes, I'll support that as well. For what you want, DCC is an unnecessary expense that would add nothing to your layout.
> 
> This kind of thing is not new, as others have pointed out. Someone mentioned that HO is more likely to derail than O, which I think is mistaken (although the heavier a train is, the more likely it is to stay on the rails.
> 
> ...



Does the higher gauges have track cleaning cars like ho does? If so that would probably be worth investing in sure would save hours upon hours of cleaning by hand up that high lol.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

hogges said:


> That's a great idea. I am also thinking of going with regular metal track rather than Fasttrack(sp?) because I read that the latter is much louder. Noise could indeed be an issue with the framing and drywall up there.


Once the boards are cut, test fitted & stained… use a silicone adhesive to secure felt or thin rubber to the bottom of the metal ties. Tool box liner would work perfectly. Then use the same silicone adhesive to secure the rubber-footed track to the boards. Then the only sound will be the metal on metal wheels on rails.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

hogges said:


> Hi,
> I am a new forum member from Vermont, just wrote a brief post to the new member introduction.
> 
> My wife wants to have a train going around the weird "tray ceiling" (I think that's what it's called) of our bedroom. The trim is wide enough, except that I would have to come up with some support for the curves in the corners. My initial thought was that O scale would be about right. It would give me an excuse to finally buy some Lionel stuff.
> ...


Wolfgang;

Welcome to the forum!

You have a nice long space there for running a train.
One problem with ceiling layouts is that the trains can be hard to see up on top of a shelf. What you see is mostly the bottom of the shelf unless you're viewing it from across the room. Even on the clear plexiglass shelf layouts I've seen, you often see the bottom of the train, rather than the side.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is a battery-powered, radio-controlled train, something like the Bachmann "Big Hauler" G-scale train. This system would eliminate need for clean track or wheels, to a large extent. You also wouldn't have to run any wiring, either up the walls, or down from the attic.
All this works fine for a train that runs on the DC (Direct Current) that batteries supply, but those Lionel trains you want run on AC. (alternating Current)
There are O-scale trains that run on DC. They run on two-rail track, rather than the three-rail track used by Lionel.
While two-rail O-scale trains normally get their DC power from the rails, just like HO-scale, N-scale, & Z-scale, they would be adaptable to battery power, and radio control, since their large, O-scale, bodies could hold the necessary batteries & electronics. There may even be some sold with battery power, and radio control, factory-installed. I don't know as I'm an N-scaler not very familiar with O-scale matters. The folks on our O-scale forum would know worlds more than I do.
Certainly there are G-scale train sets that have these features included. I have one for my own Christmas train.
The general concept of battery powered & remote controlled trains is called "Dead Rail" in the hobby press. You might google "Dead Rail" and see if its something that you would be interested in.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## Toy train hobby (Aug 3, 2019)

Anything is possible... I have a wall-mounted O-scale layout in a bedroom (8' ceiling) and it can be seen quite well. It's a 2-track (031 & 042) and the track nearest the wall is slightly raised, for better viewing. The G-scale is mounted from the ceiling (away from the walls) and that method is an option to consider, as well.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

OilValleyRy said:


> Once the boards are cut, test fitted & stained… use a silicone adhesive to secure felt or thin rubber to the bottom of the metal ties. Tool box liner would work perfectly. Then use the same silicone adhesive to secure the rubber-footed track to the boards. Then the only sound will be the metal on metal wheels on rails.


Why would he need to cut, fit and stain boards? The shelf is there already. He's just looking to put a train on it.

The rest of your idea is good, though.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

Thanks everybody!

I just ordered a Lionchief train set, Polar Express. I am a big fan of freight cars, but up on the ceiling I envision that a fully lit passenger train will look great. I will have some pretty decent length straight sections, and with the Polar Express line offering more cars I can make it nice and long. The Lionel legacy locomotives look even better, but that's for another time.

Can't wait for the NWV show in March here in Vermont to get more ideas!

110V AC power is already available up at the trim, and even though I am not enamored with remote controls laying around my house, it just seems like it will be practical in this case. I will not us the Fastrack but instead get Menards tubular track. Surprised how inexpensive it is, actually.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Why would he need to cut, fit and stain boards? The shelf is there already. He's just looking to put a train on it.
> 
> The rest of your idea is good, though.


That’s crown molding, not a shelf.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> That’s crown molding, not a shelf.


The two dimensional photo is misleading. The crown molding is in front of the actual wall corner. So there is about a 3.5" shelf there. But I wonder how close to the wall I can be without the passenger cars swinging out in the turns above the trucks and hitting the wall. This might be another reason not to go with the tightest radius turns. The set comes with 36" curves, so 31" might be a bit extreme for the long Polar Express cars..


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

hogges said:


> The two dimensional photo is misleading. The crown molding is in front of the actual wall corner. So there is about a 3.5" shelf there. But I wonder how close to the wall I can be without the passenger cars swinging out in the turns above the trucks and hitting the wall. This might be another reason not to go with the tightest radius turns. The set comes with 36" curves, so 31" might be a bit extreme for the long Polar Express cars..


I understand the photos. There is a soffit, with crown molding just above the bottom edge. Crown molding is not a suitable shelf bracket for various reasons. The main two reasons are it is cosmetic, and hung accordingly. Meaning the nails holding it up are not large and may only penetrate the stud 1/4th of an inch, because it’s not intended to support any weight. Crown molding is open on top, so you’d be balancing track on a 1/2 or 5/8th wide top edge. Once you get up there on a ladder you’ll see what I mean. They may have installed some triangular blocking, but generally that is only done for large heavy molding, and it eliminates the trough which defeats the point in the case of mood lighting. Crown molding is designed generally to be against the ceiling. People hang it lower in order to provide a trough for mood lighting which is ok, but rope lights don’t weight much and are visibly obscured sitting in the trough.

The second and equally important reason is that shelf brackets are supposed to be 2/3rd the depth of the shelf. So a 9 inch deep shelf requires a 6 inch deep bracket. Even if the molding was secured with the intention of supporting a shelf, the maximum you’d get is 6 inches or so.

The photos posted by Toy train hobby are exactly what you need, including similar brackets.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> I understand the photos. There is a soffit, with crown molding just above the bottom edge. Crown molding is not a suitable shelf bracket for various reasons. The main two reasons are it is cosmetic, and hung accordingly. Meaning the nails holding it up are not large and may only penetrate the stud 1/4th of an inch, because it’s not intended to support any weight. Crown molding is open on top, so you’d be balancing track on a 1/2 or 5/8th wide top edge. Once you get up there on a ladder you’ll see what I mean. They may have installed some triangular blocking, but generally that is only done for large heavy molding, and it eliminates the trough which defeats the point in the case of mood lighting. Crown molding is designed generally to be against the ceiling. People hang it lower in order to provide a trough for mood lighting which is ok, but rope lights don’t weight much and are visibly obscured sitting in the trough.
> 
> The second and equally important reason is that shelf brackets are supposed to be 2/3rd the depth of the shelf. So a 9 inch deep shelf requires a 6 inch deep bracket. Even if the molding was secured with the intention of supporting a shelf, the maximum you’d get is 6 inches or so.
> 
> The photos posted by Toy train hobby are exactly what you need, including similar brackets.


Ok, understood. I’ll evaluate the sturdiness carefully. If this is all just held up by 16 gauge finish nails then it may indeed need some extra help.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

hogges said:


> Ok, understood. I’ll evaluate the sturdiness carefully. If this is all just held up by 16 gauge finish nails then it may indeed need some extra help.


Unfortunately, Oilvalley is showing his limited experience. By all means, evaluate the strength of the shelf, but obviously Oilvalley has never seen upper wall shelving like that. It's fairly common in the Northeast in houses built in the immediate post-war period up to about the mid-seventies, and was used for potted plants, knickknacks, books, artwork, and even unused dishes. If that's what it is, which both your description and photos seem to suggest, it will be plenty strong enough.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Any developments on this, Hogges? I was trying to think of a way you could temp things in to see how much the noise bounces around, but haven’t had anything viable come to mind.

With all due respect CT, that’s a soffit. I’ve only built 50 or so over the years both commercial & residential. They’ve fallen out of favored style since the early 1990s. You can tell by the perspective of the vertical corner, they don’t line up. The soffit vertical corner (upper) is set towards the center of the room more than the wall corner. Hogges identified it as a tray, or “pan” ceiling.


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## hogges (Dec 3, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> Any developments on this, Hogges? I was trying to think of a way you could temp things in to see how much the noise bounces around, but haven’t had anything viable come to mind.
> 
> With all due respect CT, that’s a soffit. I’ve only built 50 or so over the years both commercial & residential. They’ve fallen out of favored style since the early 1990s. You can tell by the perspective of the vertical corner, they don’t line up. The soffit vertical corner (upper) is set towards the center of the room more than the wall corner. Hogges identified it as a tray, or “pan” ceiling.


I really wanted to finish this for the holiday but it’s still unfinished. I ran into problems when test fitting the lumber that I had prepared:

- There is a vertical support piece in the back but it is slightly higher than the trim in the front. So the 1x4 finger jointed pine I am using as the base for the track would be slightly angled towards the room. Not good. I need to trim the track piece to make it thinner in the back to end up with a flat surface. 

- The corners aren’t perfectly square, so I need to cut the back side of the corner pieces (19.75” square with rounded cutouts for a 36” diameter curve) so that they fit properly. I knew from years of various home remodeling projects that sheetrocked corners are never perfect 90 degrees but didn’t really think about that in this case when preparing the wood. 

- The corners also need to be thinned in the back, same as the long pieces.


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