# NCE wiring questions



## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

The questions I have are all about wiring the tortoise up to the system.
I want red/green to signal which way switch is thrown.i also want to make a control panel to be able to manually throw the switches.

So I don't have to power the frogs so I'll just be using slot 1 and 8 on the tortoise. Slot 1 will go straight to the switch 8. Slot 8 I should run a series on the two leds.

It would go out from Slot 8 split one going to the + on the red and the other going to the - on the green. . The other sides ( red - and green + would get wired together to the switch 8


Is that correct so far?
Now I'm going to power the unit using the power cord I have for my nce booster that I won't need on this layout. I would put toggle switch to DC power. Also would have two wires going to the bus.

Hopefully I'm good so far. The next part for the switch board I'm pretty confused on.

My understanding is that I can use a mini panel for thus. I would wires the switchs trying to keep the same ports u wired th to the switch 8.
I would wire mini panel to the cab line.

After that I would have to program the mini panel so that when I throw switch 1 it would activate that tortoise. Correct?

From what I am seeing there will be no wires going from the switch 8 to the mini panel right?

My last question would be is there any way to have a second set of LEDs to signal the turnouts position? The other ones I plan on having a signal light on the layout but would also like a set for the control board with the toggle switches.
How would I wire those LEDs??


Thanks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You do NOT connect the Tortoise turnout motors to
your DCC controller. You must have a separate DC
power supply of around 12 or so volts. This will also
be the power for your panel and track side signals
controlled by the Tortoise motor.

It is very simple to wire the Tortoise to control panel or
track side signals along with the points. See figure 2
of the attached manual.



http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/ins/800-6000ins.pdf



1. Tortoise terminals 1 and 8 are the feed to the motor from 
a DPDT toggle switch on your panel.
2. Tortoise terminals 2 and 3 go to the Red and Green 
signals you will use. Terminal 4 is the Positive DC that
the 2 and 4 control. Your DC negative will go direct to
the panel/track side signals.
3. Tortoise terminals 6 and 7 are a second set of switched
current. They also could be used for panel or track side lights.
4. You use a DPDT toggle switch on the panel to throw the
points which then control the signal lights. 

If you use LEDs you would need a 460 ohm or better resistor
on to terminal 4 to drop the DC voltage. 

I could not follow your text, but I think you may be using a
different way of controlling your signals using the
polariized current to the motor. It would work but
it is not as desirable as the above. 

Don


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

DonR said:


> You do NOT connect the Tortoise turnout motors to
> your DCC controller. You must have a separate DC
> power supply of around 12 or so volts. This will also
> be the power for your panel and track side signals
> ...


The way I listed above would (I believe) allow me either to throw the switch with my wireless controller or by the switch. The tortoise would be powered by a seperate supply and the only reason it connects to the bus is for informational purposes


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> The way I listed above would (I believe) allow me either to throw the switch with my wireless controller or by the switch. The tortoise would be powered by a seperate supply and the only reason it connects to the bus is for informational purposes


A Tortoise would still not connect directly to the bus "for informational purposes" ( I'm assuming you mean the digital signals carried on the bus wires.)
The Tortoise, and most other switch machines, require a stationary DCC decoder between the Tortoise's Plain DC input, and the digital signals from the DCC system, carried by the bus wires. Do you have a stationary decoder? If you are using the Snail switch machine, rather than the Tortoise, that's different. The Snail has its own built-in DCC decoder.

Traction Fan


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

My answer assumes you are using a DPDT switch to operate the Tortoise.
Take your red and green LED's, solder the anode of one LED to the cathode of the other, and the cathode of one to the anode of the other. Now solder this in line with one of the wires going out from the DPDT switch to the Tortoise. It doesn't matter if it's the wire going to terminal #1 or terminal #8. You may want to temporarily connect the LED assembly with jumper wires until you know that it will light the way you want with the Tortoise in a particular position. The DPDT switch will reverse the polarity of the wires going to the Tortoise so no matter which way the switch is thrown only one of the LED's will be lit at a time. And you do not need to add additional resistors as the Tortoise motor will function as a resistor.
Basically, as long as the LED assembly is wired in line with one of the power wires leading to the Tortoise motor AFTER THE SWITCH, it will function and light one or the other LED. If the wrong LED lights, just turn the LED assembly around and the other one will light. This is exactly how I power the panel LED's on my layout.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

traction fan said:


> A Tortoise would still not connect directly to the bus "for informational purposes" ( I'm assuming you mean the digital signals carried on the bus wires.)
> The Tortoise, and most other switch machines, require a stationary DCC decoder between the Tortoise's Plain DC input, and the digital signals from the DCC system, carried by the bus wires. Do you have a stationary decoder? If you are using the Snail switch machine, rather than the Tortoise, that's different. The Snail has its own built-in DCC decoder.
> 
> Traction Fan



That's the switch 8. 









NCE Switch8-MK2 Switch Machine Decoder


Check out the deal on NCE Switch8-MK2 Switch Machine Decoder at Train Sets Only




www.trainsetsonly.com





I'm going to use a power plug to it and it also connects to the bus. Up to 8 tortoises can connect to it. I have used it before. I haven't put optional push buttons tho which Is the reason I am asking here just in case I am wrong.

The switch 8 doesn't appear to go to a mini panel. So was going to hook up toggles to the mini panel. Information would go from the tortoise to the switch 8. Would go thru the drop to the main unit. The bud ( the wire that runs thru a telephone like cord) to the mni panel which hooks up the toggle switches. 

I might have the wire names wrong as I'm at work atm and tired as heck lol. Might have bus mixed up with the main track wire...


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

flyboy2610 said:


> My answer assumes you are using a DPDT switch to operate the Tortoise.
> Take your red and green LED's, solder the anode of one LED to the cathode of the other, and the cathode of one to the anode of the other. Now solder this in line with one of the wires going out from the DPDT switch to the Tortoise. It doesn't matter if it's the wire going to terminal #1 or terminal #8. You may want to temporarily connect the LED assembly with jumper wires until you know that it will light the way you want with the Tortoise in a particular position. The DPDT switch will reverse the polarity of the wires going to the Tortoise so no matter which way the switch is thrown only one of the LED's will be lit at a time. And you do not need to add additional resistors as the Tortoise motor will function as a resistor.
> Basically, as long as the LED assembly is wired in line with one of the power wires leading to the Tortoise motor AFTER THE SWITCH, it will function and light one or the other LED. If the wrong LED lights, just turn the LED assembly around and the other one will light. This is exactly how I power the panel LED's on my layout.



Yes the switch 8 is the decoder it supports up to 8 tortious machines. For the LEDs I dunno the names for each side of it but that is how I figured it was going to go. However I would like two of each so two green and two red. Can I continue with the series and jumper another green (same way the other green goes) and another red same way the other went of course?

Then I also would like to confirm if I am going yo be wiring the mini panel to the toggles will be right. I haven't had a chance to use a mini panel since I got it. I also wasn't sure if I needed the second set of LEDS needed to be coded thru the mini panel as I'm under the impression that they can be somehow.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Your 'Switch 8'' manual should show you how to connect
a DPDT toggle for each turnout on your control panel.

Don


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

DonR said:


> Your 'Switch 8'' manual should show you how to connect
> a DPDT toggle for each turnout on your control panel.
> 
> Don



Not exactly. I know I can buy another panel board which can run toggles or push buttons however I do not have one. I'm almost positive I can program buttons to the mini panel which would tell the switch 8 what turnout to throw.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

sounds like you want to be able to control the tortoise switch machines both using dcc and manually. 

why couldn't you wire a DPDT reversing switch between the Switch 8 and switch machine to manually reverse the position of the machine? 

is this what you're sugesting?


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

gregc said:


> sounds like you want to be able to control the tortoise switch machines both using dcc and manually.
> 
> why couldn't you wire a DPDT reversing switch between the Switch 8 and switch machine to manually reverse the position of the machine?
> 
> is this what you're sugesting?


Yes I want both. Instead of buying I was just going to program toggles to throw the turnout using macros from the mini panel that I have.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Conductorkev said:


> Yes the switch 8 is the decoder it supports up to 8 tortious machines. For the LEDs I dunno the names for each side of it but that is how I figured it was going to go. However I would like two of each so two green and two red. Can I continue with the series and jumper another green (same way the other green goes) and another red same way the other went of course?


Yes, you can add another series of LED's. But be aware that each series of LED's will decrease the voltage to the Tortoise by 2 volts. That's from the Tortoise instruction sheet.
The terms anode and cathode denote the different sides of the LED. One leg will be longer than the other. You want to solder the long leg of one LED to the short leg of the other, and vice versa.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Got 3 of my tortoise hooked up to the switch 8 not working right none of them. Have not added the mini panel wired two leds in series .
When I started up all the switches went to proper location ( instructions tell you to start it up with the tortoise in the middle.)
The lights on switch 8 is correct and I get the lines saying it's reading through dcc signal. I try to use the power cab to make the switch I hear a small click and lights (both red and green) come on. Try again and they go off.
I did wire the short end of the green to long of the red.
Tried rebooting nothing.
So tried to get to each of the 3 decoders thru programming. I get nothing. When I hit the program button on switch 8 it does as the instruction says however when I try to pull it up by accessory it goes to which way to switch the r/w screen when it supposed to go into asking you if you to make a address or some such.
Tonight I'll probably try a different tortoise on a different switch 8 both I know are new never used from my last layout I could never finish. But if there is anything that u guys can think of please say


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Dug out my second switch 8 hooked up a brand new tortoise hooked it all up and it worked. Took wires from one of the non working tortoise would not work.
The problem lies somewhere in the LEDS. Could I have accidently put too much heat on each of them when soldering? Not sure if thst would cause problem....


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Did you wire in the LED's after the Switch 8? They need to be wired inline just before the Tortoise? I've never used a Switch 8 so I can't help much on that score.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

flyboy2610 said:


> Did you wire in the LED's after the Switch 8? They need to be wired inline just before the Tortoise? I've never used a Switch 8 so I can't help much on that score.


Ya in between the switch 8 and thr tortoise. It felt like they were taking all the power so there wasn't enough left for the tortoise. But they are just tiny LED's not able to use that much. I would hear the machine trying to switch but would not. It is working now without the LED's. Might try to see about lights when I install the mini panel so I can make switches and macro switches. (This area has 4 switches somewhat like a crossover between two mains. So I want buttons to also make the turnouts be a certain way.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Conductorkev said:


> It felt like they were taking all the power so there wasn't enough left for the tortoise.


the LEDs should be in "series" with the tortoise machine so that all the "current" flowing thru the tortoise machines has to flow thru the LEDs. Two LEDs need to be wired in parallel but opposite polarity so that current flow thru one when polarity it "+" and the other LED when "-".










with one end of the parallel pair of LEDs connect to one end of the tortoise machine, the other ends of the tortoise and LEDs are connected to the DPDT reversing switch and the other two wires from the reversing switch to the Switch-8, similar to below where the power supply is the Switch-8 and tortoise/LEDs the motor


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

gregc said:


> the LEDs should be in "series" with the tortoise machine so that all the "current" flowing thru the tortoise machines has to flow thru the LEDs. Two LEDs need to be wired in parallel but opposite polarity so that current flow thru one when polarity it "+" and the other LED when "-".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is not how the instructions for the switch 8 mk2 had it






NCE Switch-It Mk2 Quick Start Manual (Page 5 of 6) | ManualsLib







www.manualslib.com






I ran the LED's in series from the switch 8 to the Tortoise machine as per the instructions.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Conductorkev said:


> I ran the LED's in series from the switch 8 to the Tortoise machine as per the instructions.


yes but he also wants to manually be able to toggle the tortoise machines


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

gregc said:


> yes but he also wants to manually be able to toggle the tortoise machines



Think u meant me. Yes I do but the way I'm going to setup the switches is going to be different I'm going to use a mini panel to send commands to the switch 8 to make the switch. Reason I want to use the mini panel is for two reasons. I have a mini panel and not the 60$ addon for the switch 8. And also because I would like to have a switch that will make sure the turnouts are the right way.
However when wiring the tortoise it would not work. Both lights came on one way I would hear tge tortoise tryingvto move but it would not.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Your manual and gregc's diagram are identical. If both LED's turned on then either the switch 8 is outputting an A/C signal, as if for solenoid operation ,or you LED's are no wired correctly. If the switch 8 has a solenoid mode it may have damaged the stall motor.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> Your manual and gregc's diagram are identical. If both LED's turned on then either the switch 8 is outputting an A/C signal, as if for solenoid operation ,or you LED's are no wired correctly. If the switch 8 has a solenoid mode it may have damaged the stall motor.



The motor worked when I took out the LEDs. I was hooking the short end to the long end on the LEDs. If it was just one that it happened to then I would suspect wiring wrong but to 4 can't believe that. Even if they were wired wrong in terms of the LED leads the tortoise would have still worked properly.

I do have one question that might give the answer from the pics in the instructions the LEDs looked to be hooked up on last post if you are looking at the silver side(iron side) of tge tortoise. So I did that for all 4. Could that be the reason?


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

How much voltage is the Switch 8 putting out to the Tortoise? The LED will decrease the voltage to the Tortoise by 2 volts. If the Switch 8 isn't putting out enough voltage, the LED will drop the remaining voltage to the point where there isn't enough power to operate the Tortoise. 
Wiring the long leg of the LED to the short leg is the proper way to wire them.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

flyboy2610 said:


> How much voltage is the Switch 8 putting out to the Tortoise? The LED will decrease the voltage to the Tortoise by 2 volts. If the Switch 8 isn't putting out enough voltage, the LED will drop the remaining voltage to the point where there isn't enough power to operate the Tortoise.
> Wiring the long leg of the LED to the short leg is the proper way to wire them.


Did not test it however I did try one wired up on a brand new switch 8 same thing.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You can also use 2 lead 2 color LED's. These LED's are nice for making a track test light as they show yellow when looing at DCC and red or green when looing at DC. Less messing around solder the LED's together and only one hole needed to mount them.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

So I decided to revisit this problem I had since I am redoing the portion of my layout that has most of my turnouts. I am not going to use any switch and will just use my power cab to throw the switch. So I took a tortoise hooked a wire from port 1 to the long side of a red led. I then ran a wire from the short of the red to the long of a green led. I then ran another wire from the short side of the green led to my switch 8. I get the same problem....


I turn on my nce system. The Tortoise goes to a thrown position since your supposed to start it up in the middle.
I Brin up the address and throw the turnout. I hear it trying go but it doesn't changd positions. In one position both leds will be on the other I get no lights. The Tortoise won't throw the turnout but tge cab things utvx


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

You need to look up how to connect the red and green LED's to get them to work so current in one direction turns on one color and current in the other direction turns on the other color. You have them wired so no current can get thru. the LED's should be wired short to long ,then the torti motor goes to one of the short to long connections and the torti driver goes to the other.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> You need to look up how to connect the red and green LED's to get them to work so current in one direction turns on one color and current in the other direction turns on the other color. You have them wired so no current can get thru. the LED's should be wired short to long ,then the torti motor goes to one of the short to long connections and the torti driver goes to the other.
> View attachment 575762



I think I see where I am going wrong. The wire from the tortoise splits and goes to long of one and short of other then comes off the opposite to form another 3 way to the switch 8.


I was wiring the tortoise to one side of a LED then tying that LED other side to the opposite side of the other LED.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The LED structure needs to be in series with the torti motor. All the current going to the motor needs to go through the LED circuit. Makes no difference which lead to the motor you chose. If the red and green are the opposite of what you want then reverse the LED circuit connections.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> The LED structure needs to be in series with the torti motor. All the current going to the motor needs to go through the LED circuit. Makes no difference which lead to the motor you chose. If the red and green are the opposite of what you want then reverse the LED circuit connections.



I'll have to try but is the proper way to wire it is by splittingvthr wire from tortoise one going to let's say the red short end and tgr other going to green long end. Then the other sides ofvttr LED'S come together and go to the decoder?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The torti has 2 contacts that go to its motor, the stationary decoder has 2 output contacts that go to the torti motor. you run wires between these to get the torti to operate. To get LED's to signal which way the torti is set, remove a wire from one of these 4 contacts and put that wire on the LED assembly contact (the the junction between the long and sort leads of the LEDs) and run another wire from the other contact on the LED assembly to the contact you removed the wire from. Thus putting the LED assembly in series with the torti motor. That way when the tori is powered, the current going one way will light the green LED and when going the other way will light the Red LED.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> The torti has 2 contacts that go to its motor, the stationary decoder has 2 output contacts that go to the torti motor. you run wires between these to get the torti to operate. To get LED's to signal which way the torti is set, remove a wire from one of these 4 contacts and put that wire on the LED assembly contact (the the junction between the long and sort leads of the LEDs) and run another wire from the other contact on the LED assembly to the contact you removed the wire from. Thus putting the LED assembly in series with the torti motor. That way when the tori is powered, the current going one way will light the green LED and when going the other way will light the Red LED.



Ya got it now going to try later on. What I did was put wire from tortoise to one of tge leads on led the other on that led I ran to the opposite of tge other led then the other side I ran to the decoder.


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