# Lionel F3 2333-20 frames Shells ?



## Trimix (May 27, 2017)

Hi,

I have two F3 frames both marked 2333-20.

The power has horizontal engines with no horn, the dummy engine is also marked 2333-20 and has only a horn in it. 

Can anyone tell me what shells go on these frames.

Trimix


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm thinking more then likely Santa Fe.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The only F-3's that put the horn in the dummy unit with horizontal motors are the 2344, 2345, 2353, or 2355. The road name would be a matter of which one you prefer. That would include Santa Fe, New York Central, Western PAcific, etc. Pick one.


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## Trimix (May 27, 2017)

Wouldn't the Santa fe have a silver frame? Did the Santa Fa come in black frame? I own a 2344 NYC and horn is in the power unit. The western pacific has the horn in the power unit and is a silver frame. I own one of them too. Here is a photo. 

So the question is which lionel F3 had a black frame horizontal motors with the horn in the dummy unit. 

Trimix


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I do not own any diesels, so I used Olsen's Library to look at their list of F-3's that used horizontal motors. The ones I listed, fit that criteria, and I didn't take the frame color into consideration. I looked at all four of the diagrams, which showed the horns located in the dummy units. If you look at those diagrams very closely, near the center of the frames, you can see the number on the frame is 2333-20, which is shared by all 4 of my listing. Remember that the "Trimmed" number listed, is for a specific 'Road Number', and NOT the actual frame or body number, used by Lionel. (The 671/681/682/2020 loco bodies are 671-3 castings, as an example). The N.Y.C. F-3 has a Black frame, so your specific frame would most likely need that shell.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Why is one shell longer then the other? I don't remember them putting battery compartments in if no battery was needed? Could it be a mix of 2 different Alcos?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

You have a screw indentation in the powered unit where the horn relay would have been. Since its not painted, it looks as if it had a horn at one point. The non powered horn unit probably came from Alcos that had the horns in the rear.


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## Trimix (May 27, 2017)

They are identical in size it was just the way i shot the picture.

It could have been modified i do not have the history of the unit.

Did Lionel make a Black framed F3 with the horn in the dummy?

Both have 2333-20 markings. 

I own NYC F3 horn is not in the dummy.

Trimix


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think they made an alco with a horn in the dummy, but the power unit was 1 engine, not 2, and i think that it wouldn't have a cover for a battery. I think all the 2 motor ones had the horn in the power unit. I did not come across any of these frames in black, I did check a lot of pictures. It could have, but I can't find one. Usually the frame is painted to the same color as the alco.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Trimix, With your BLACK FRAME, the only loco body that would go with it, is a N.Y.C., and no other loco. All the other Road Names, of Santa Fe, and such have different color frames (Silver). There are actually 7 different locos, with horizontal motors, that all use the 2333-20 frame assemblies for both the power and dummy units. The listing in Olsen's library, of those 7 locos, all show the same frame number, but the trimmed version of a N.Y.C. frame has the number 2334-8 (power) and 2334-11 (dummy). I think it all comes down to what year, that would have the horn, mounted in the dummy unit, and not in the power unit. Bottom line is your frame would make it a N.Y.C. diesel.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

My NYC has a gray frame. It looks black in most pic. From e bay.


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## Trimix (May 27, 2017)

The only one i could find with the horn mounted in the dummy was the Santa Fe when it went from 2343 to the 2353 . The only problem is my frames are black. It could have been rewire possibly?

So there is no Black framed F3 with the horn in the dummy?

Here are pictures of my NYC F3 note the horn in the power unit.


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## Trimix (May 27, 2017)

This is a NYC 2344.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think the horn was in the power unit, then someone left the battery in, moving the horn 2 the b unit, and possibly repainted the frame. I really don't know for sure.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Trimix & sjm9911, Come on guys, get with the program!!!! The ONLY BLACK FRAME is the N.Y.C. bodies, as ALL OTHERS have Silver, Gray frames. So it comes down to those frames belong as a N.Y.C loco, period.

The discussion of the horn location is a MOOT POINT, as the loco was produced during the whole year, and not on ONE DAY, nor a one week run. So it would come down to the timeframe of production, who assembled it, as easily as possible. Those on the assembly line could have found it a easier to put the horn in the dummy, and not the power unit. *****Think about it*****

I'm done!!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Doc, I do respect every piece of knowledge you research I do own 2 aba NYC, yes the number is the same but I have yet to find a black frame. This leads to finding a black frame for me, I did , like you , look at tons of stuff and actually came up with a black frame in the 2356 southern! It still doesn't make sense that the horn was put in the dummy for me. Yes we all know they did do some weird stuff when using up old stock, or even when just making stuff. But for me the screw being unpainted, and the fact it has a battery door , leads me to believe the horn was taken out and and replaced in the dummy or a new one was added. Those doors are hard to put on!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Pic


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, if we stick with the frame being BLACK, then the 2356 is the ONLY one that would make sense. The NYC locos had Dark Gray, and not black. The Power and Dummy units both use the 2333-20 chassis, and that part number is found on ALL the chassis. The section where the battery door is located, on the powered unit, does not have the door, or screws, to attach the door, on a NORMAL frame. Will you agree with that statement???

Now I will give you a scenario, from my research with the elustrious 1688/1688E locos. As I found roughly 18 body variations, there were things that made me wonder about Lionel's Casting process, and how the differences came to be. A lot of the variations were the E unit slot location; motor mounting screw location; railing stanchion holes, etc. It would be almost impossible to have those holes, to be part of the casting, from the mold they used. The body of a 1588 windup loco, a 1668 & 1688, all used the same basic mold. The holes for all the separate items, would have been done AFTER the bodies were cast, and came out of the mold. 

If you know that the frames of the 2300 series locos, had the 2333-20 part number, then the DUMMY unit would need the hole for the battery door, opened up, and holes drilled & tapped for the door. That opening would be done, AFTER the basic frame came out of the mold!!! I can give you other examples of the basic MOLD, and the FINISHED product, of other locos, with the same original part numbers. 

The location of the horn in the dummy unit, is not what is considered NORMAL. Whoever assembled this set of frames, may have justed decided to put the horn, separately into that frame. The POWERED unit has the Battery door, which wasn't normal. The person that assembled THIS loco, probably grabbed that frame, (with the battery door), and assembled the the finished product. The frame being Black, would make the choice of body, the 2356, and not the NYC body.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ill give that to you who really knows what they did back then , and mistakes or cost cutting measures were done. Tandem ***. Also states this run was made up of parts from other runs, so it could be the battery doors were all ready assembled, or that some one was having some fun.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The previous post (quite lengthy) explaining the MOLDING process, and the end result of components, to a finished process, took a lot of thinking on my part. It was something that I thought made the most sense, with the different locos from both Prewar & Postwar, that I have. I used the Turbine from Postwar as a classic example. The 671/681/682/2020 bodies all have the 671-3 casting, from the 1946 model, all the way to end of production. The '46 version had no E unit slot, but the rest did, so the slot as drilled or machined AFTER the basic casting was done. The "Torpedoes" from Prewar, (1588,1668,1688) all started with the basic casting. The E unit slot location moved from year to year, or specific model, but the basic casting stayed the same. The mold couldn't accommodate for The variation, so the different holes were done AFTER.

It is something that would seem stupid, to others. I wanted to understand how the factory did things, and did a lot of research into the process. The CTT group posted a few videos, of factory workers, and how Postwar items were made & assembled & tested. The video is quick, and jumps from all the things happening every day. There is one short clip, of GG-1's coming out of the molds, and the worker unloading the mold, throwing the castings into a bin, for others to finish. The castings are ROUGH out of the mold, so the flashing needs to be removed, and various hole drilled for trim, done AFTER the initial cast. 

This was something that 99.9999% wouldn't think about, BUT I did!!!


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## Togatown (Nov 29, 2013)

teledoc said:


> Okay, if we stick with the frame being BLACK, then the 2356 is the ONLY one that would make sense. The NYC locos had Dark Gray, and not black. The Power and Dummy units both use the 2333-20 chassis, and that part number is found on ALL the chassis. The section where the battery door is located, on the powered unit, does not have the door, or screws, to attach the door, on a NORMAL frame. Will you agree with that statement???
> 
> 
> If you know that the frames of the 2300 series locos, had the 2333-20 part number, then the DUMMY unit would need the hole for the battery door, opened up, and holes drilled & tapped for the door. That opening would be done, AFTER the basic frame came out of the mold!!! I can give you other examples of the basic MOLD, and the FINISHED product, of other locos, with the same original part numbers.
> ...


I totally agree with the observation that this is from a 2356 Southern set, I have 2344's and can say without a doubt, they are Gray frames, and definitely not Black. The Southern is a much scarcer set and the only F3 with a black frame. 
The 2333-20 frames were used extensively throughout the F3 line. You can make a battery door out of the blank frame by punching out the blank, and adding a door with a self tapping screw.

In this example, the set is basically Frankensteined, as it has one old style motor ( screw type brushes ) mixed with one newer brush style motor. Also, they just used two of the same frames for both the Dummy and Power. As a result, it might not even have been black originally, and could have been repainted.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Togatown, Great observation with the motors. As I never owned, nor have I ever worked on the twin motor F3's, I totally missed the two different motors. You are correct, that the whole line of F3 locos used the same frame, but were painted different colors, to fit a specific roadname, and color scheme of that line, i.e. Santa Fe's, Western Pacific. As far as a repaint, it doesn't appear that way, from the photos, so it probably was from the 2356 Southern. The nit-picking about the horn location, doesn't mean anything, knowing that Lionel did some strange things, at the factory. If he wants to put a body on the frames, then go with the Southern, and black frames.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I missed the motor part too! I wonder how it runs? They say if the motors are not in sync it will derail as the faster motor will push the slower one off the tracks. I've never encountered it happen.


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