# Big Problem?



## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

So my son and I were running our 2344 Diesel and it came to a grinding halt. Literally. Nothing was broken down or lubricated at the shop like we thought. When I heard the binding sound I immediately killed the power and have my fingers crossed no damage was done. It has sounded dry to me lubrication wise and I could use some help guys. Is there a thread I can follow as a newbie with step by step instructions on breaking everything down and lubricating after 60 years? She started slowing down and not knowing the proper terminology for everything has us stuck...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the shell is very easy to remove on those, there will be either four or six screws spaced around the frame.

After a long layoff, I'd probably want to cleanout and lube the drive gears on the motors, as well as the truck gears. Do you have the Greenberg's Lionel repair book? It has a good section on that locomotive.

I see Olsen's is back up, here's a section on your locomotive: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2344p.htm


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

What are the trucks exactly? The wheel platforms I assume? As for the motor drive gears I should be able to spot them. Should I try and brak down the motors for cleaning as well? Do they get lubricated too?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The "trucks" are the things the wheels are mounted on.  There are gears in there, and they all should be lubricated. It has horizontal motors, and the gears in the motor housing should have grease, and they shouldn't be dry. The motor bearings probably need oil as well.

If it moves, lube it!


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Ok, truck #1 FRONT. Dry? Worm gear shaft very rusty in the center....Should I break it down further as to lubricate the axles somehow? What should I be using to lubricate everything just oil?


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

One of the wheels was wabbling arount like crazy. When I flipped the truck it fell right off! No idea how to address this...



















Front motor partly dissassembled. Not sure what to clean and where to lubricate with the exception of the gears on the opposite side...


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Do you have the Greenberg's Lionel repair book?


On order John. Haven't received it yet.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

You can take a scotchbright pad to the top of the armature, the peice the brushes cone in contact with. I would clean the worm drive with wd 40 to break down the grease and use a brass wire brush on it. Never use any metels that are magnetic around trains. Then wipe with alcohol. As for the rest someone will hknow better then i .. I am just learning this stuff too. This will get you started.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I also clean the brushes with the scotchbrite pad. And clean the wound wire with a cotten swab with alcohol. I then clean the holes where the brushes go in with a brass pipe cleaner and wipe with an alcohol cotten swab. And take the rust off of any of the moter parts with the scotchbrite pad or a dremel with a brass wire wheel. I dont know if this is correct but so far has worked for me. Make sure to let the alcohol evaperate before running the train.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks sjm. I cleaned the top of the armature and the brushes. Used Q-tips to clean the brush holes with alcohol as well as the contacts and wires. Cleaned the worm gear and removed the rust. Main issue now is the worn Drive wheel. As far as I can tell the axle is fine. Looks like the sleeve in the wheel itself just wore down and gave out. That would explain the grinding sound as the axle ground out what was left within the sleeve. Still have to consider the possiblilty that the axle is worn as well.














































I just got done looking for a drive wheel and no luck. Any idea where I can get a replacement or am I looking at replacing the whole powered truck assembly? I get the feeling this is going to be tough to find. I don't want to waste any time on the truck if a new drive wheel and/or axle can't be had. Regardless, I'm in this far so I'll be going through the whole chassis front to back.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Man that thing was dirty!
What the heck did the guy who worked on it do?

I thought you said someone was in it? If that someone was in it and didn't recommend that you service that I would not use that someone again!

Call Jeff here, http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html
Explain what you need most likely he will have it or a replacement wheel. 
But if you order look around for anything else you might need to save on the shipping. 


I would have emptied a can of brake cleaner before I started servicing that.
Clean the slots out on the armature too, use a toothpick.

This is why I recommend that everyone should pop the shell off to see what they have under it.
It is OK to see if it has some life showing but after you find out you should inspect and service before running.
That certainly was in need of some TLC.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

These are engines are complicated. I fixed one and never got it run well with two motors so I stuck with one. One problem is I never had one that ran well to compare it to. It is so quiet with one motor and I am not hung up on pulling long trains. 

You can read up on my 2333 in a tag search. 

It took me over 20 years to get mine to work.

The biggest question is Are the parts worn out? The axles do not wear out the bushings do. It is not fun replacing a gear on an axle.

The axle has ferrels. Line them up on the wheel and decide if the wheel can be pressed in. The magnetic wheel should be easy since it has a shoulder to stop the wheel. You wil lneed extra hands and a vise to do it. Plus spacers. Try not to break the rims or flanges on the wheels . They are brittle. That is why I had to replace one. While removing a wheel I broke one. I changed all my bushings out with ball bearings. It took about 6 months to get it right.

A replacement wheel will have to be used. I got one that was different and had to go back to get another one. It may look right but not fit.

You may have to get a junk truck for parts. Read the link John gave you.

I will guarantee you won't save anything on time. Being in NY you should find a train show with a local guy who does repairs. Your engine set is worth 300 or more so servicing may be a more logical way to go.

I have my concerns about this one.

Pressing a wheel has it quirks. You want one wheel to press on without moving the second wheel, the axle or the gear on the axle. These are all lined up. You will have to have homemade spacers to keep them in place.

You can visit ctt forum and read up on 2333 and 2334 engines. That's what I did .


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Ed, I paid $90.00 for a "Full Service". He soldered one wire and oiled here and there without breaking anything down. I'm not happy about it. I'll try Jeff at the train tender. 

As for pressing on a new wheel I definitely have concerns. I noticed a bit of play in the armature shaft bushings on the front motor as well. If I could buy brand new unused nos trucks I'd do it in a heartbeat. Who's the best source for paint?

Thanks for your input T-Man. I'm a bit intimidated knowing you had difficulties. There seems to be nothing you can't do from what I've read in your posts. There is a tiny bit of play in the axle bearings too. I can only assume the rear truck and motor are no different. She's got some miles on her for sure. I need to explore my options here. If I do decide to send it out for restoration who do you guys recommend?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Just catching up on this thread ...

Boy, that motor was gunked. Trucks, too. 'Hound, you didn't show an "after" pic of the brushplate holder, but I assume you degunked all of that, the brushes, etc.?

Why not try to mount the wheel back on the axle with a bit of JB Weld?

For paint, try these:

http://www.trainenamel.com/index.htm

http://www.hobbyhorseproducts.com/paint.html

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> Ed, I paid $90.00 for a "Full Service". He soldered one wire and oiled here and there without breaking anything down. I'm not happy about it. I'll try Jeff at the train tender.
> 
> As for pressing on a new wheel I definitely have concerns. I noticed a bit of play in the armature shaft bushings on the front motor as well. If I could buy brand new unused nos trucks I'd do it in a heartbeat. Who's the best source for paint?
> 
> Thanks for your input T-Man. I'm a bit intimidated knowing you had difficulties. There seems to be nothing you can't do from what I've read in your posts. There is a tiny bit of play in the axle bearings too. I can only assume the rear truck and motor are no different. She's got some miles on her for sure. I need to explore my options here. If I do decide to send it out for restoration who do you guys recommend?



Well If it took the T Man 20 years! It shouldn't take you more then 40.:laugh:
6 months just to get the ball bearings right, now that is what I call dedication T Man.
I never got into one of those, from the sound of it I never want to.

$90 bucks! 
That guy should be on the wall of shame!:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Just talked to Jeff at the train tender. Ordered 1 original wheel and one modern wheel along with some paint. I'm going to give this a shot as I'll have over $100.00 into this engine. Time for some at home restoration work and for me to get my hands dirty. Love it!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> Just talked to Jeff at the train tender. Ordered 1 original wheel and one modern wheel along with some paint. I'm going to give this a shot as I'll have over $100.00 into this engine. Time for some at home restoration work and for me to get my hands dirty. Love it!



Did you ask about the light bulb cover for the transformer? There is a cover lens in the middle, right?

Did you look at his parts list there are other things that you might need in the future that you could get now to save on the shipping.

Horseshoe clips come in handy for cars as most don't work right after taking them off. there is a 671m-23 along with a 671m-22 clips that work on a lot of different trains, one of those is a thin washer. Along with the 480-18b and 480-18n horse shoe clips too, they are both the same clip one is steel and one is black. There are a few more clips I won't list. it seems these are used on a lot of trains.
Some spare bulbs?
How about some new brushes? How bad are the old ones?
Bushings?

It sucks when say you order the wheel and then get it, just to find out you need another item shipped the next week.

There are more parts that come in handy to have also.
Just stick them all in one of those organizer containers for the future.

But, that is what I do to save on shipping you don't have to.
You should see my parts boxes.:thumbsup:

Did he give you a part number for the wheel? I couldn't find it on his site.
Is it a reproduced wheel or original?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Maybe it's just me, but when I think I ordered everything I need the nex day I need something else!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Bloodhound said:


> Just talked to Jeff at the train tender. Ordered 1 original wheel and one modern wheel along with some paint.


Jeff has *paint*?!? I did not know that. Jar/can, or spray?


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Hey TJ. I'll post more pictures soon. As for JB weld forget it. The hole is oblong and completely rounded out on the drive wheel. As for the brushes clips etc they are fine. I bought a lens for the LW last week. Jeff sells paint by the 1/2 pint non aerosol. He had an original wheel and a newer wheel. Bought one of each as rear truck wheels are fine. I have an airbrush I'll be using for the paintwork. I'm going to do a complete teardown of the chassis, clean and lubricate both motors, go through the trucks and strip and repaint before reassembly. As for pressing on the new wheel I'm going to head up to Aurora rails and have him press it on as he is equipped for it and experienced as he's done it in the past.

I see used trucks on ebay for outragious prices and with my luck I'd just be buying more problems. I'm going to work with what I have for the time being.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Play in the axles is the first sign. Once loose the brass gear wears out. This is where I started. ALso I had one engine missing a throw bearing. It has been years since I worked it too. NOS, dream on, you will pay dearly as these are probably the most popular diesels.
This is what you are up against. The wheel bearings cost me 18 vice a buck per bushing.

My rivets were shot that held the engine together. I ended up bolting them together. Screw (replaced) the original .

DOn't mess up the engines they are a pair. They need to be treated equally. If one is off it wil be difficult to get one that matches. You may have to buy two as a set. That is my opinion from what I have read. AFter al you are not messing around with a scout motor.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks all.


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## larry g (Oct 8, 2012)

*Traintender*

I am just a hobo, but Jeff at the traintender.com seems to have absolutely everything, great prices and amazing service. He almost always answers the phone or will call you right back. If your Greenbergs book comes in, open to the page and he will do the same to be sure you are ordering the part you need. He will even mail it immediately before you pay for it. He is an anachronism in this age of big box stores. And He probably has what you need.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks Larry. He's got me covered. 

I've decided to completely break down the F3 chassis and trucks for refurbishing. This has opened up pandora's box. All axle bearings excessively worn front and rear. 

I've ordered everything needed to break down and completely refurbish both trucks. I'll be replacing the wheels, axles, bushings, bearings, worm gear shafts & bearings, pickup etc.etc.

Phase one of the breakdown...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Pandora's happy!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Are you going to oil it while it is apart?


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Pandora's happy!


She should be! LOL


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

big ed said:


> Are you going to oil it while it is apart?


Yeah Ed, right after I get done recharging the flux capacitor!  Just finished the LW...........How do you like that!?!?! 

*OWNED!*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aiAdL8yy1Q


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You've been busy today.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Good thing you took lots of pics, they will help later for assembly. This loco has the one area I would ever recommend grease on, the worm gears and mating spurs, use white lithium grease there. Be somewhat generous, but not overly so. Oil on them won't hold up, causing pre-mature wear from a few things I've read. Once completed you'll be happy with them. 

The overall chassis looks to be in good shape, no corrosion in the battery compartment, usually happens when the battery gets forgotten for a long time. Keep us posted.

Carl


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Ok Carl. In all honesty I was planning on using a VERY expensive high temp grease we use in auto applications similiar to wheel bearing grease. If it calls for white lithium then I'll use that and oil for the axle bearings.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> Yeah Ed, right after I get done recharging the flux capacitor!  Just finished the LW...........How do you like that!?!?


:laugh: OK But did you know,
The input for the FLUX CAPACITOR is the annotation of a reference transcriptome and reads fromRNAseq technologies aligned to the genome. From the reference annotation, splicing graphs are produced and reads are mapped to corresponding edges in these graphs according to the position where they align in the genomic sequence. The resulting graph with edges labelled by the number of reads can be interpreted as a flow network where each transcript representing a transportation path from its start to its end and consequently each edge a possibly shared segment of transportation along which a certain number of reads per nucleotide -- i.e., a flux -- is observed. Given a density function of reads along a transcript, the expected participation of each transcript in an edge under consideration can be estimated. The basic idea is to cast back from these latter participations and the observed number of reads - allowing for a certain amount of noise - to the original transcript abundancies. To do so, a linear constraint is formalized for each edge, and an optimal solution for the complete set of constraints is found by a standard linear program solver. 







 *The basic problem addressed by the FLUX CAPACITOR*. The exonic structure of two spliceforms (labeled as "SF A" and "SF B") is shown, with aligned reads from by RNAseq methods (top) . Those reads mapped to the edges of a splicing graph (bottom) represent a signal, measured as the FLUX - the relative coverage along an exonic stretch. Where transcripts overlap in exons, their respective flux is combined. Given the information from all edges in a locus, signal separation is achieved by decomposition across a flow network.


Want to see it in action?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Looks like what I call a fun project. Its coming along nicely. Good info on the train tender. I assumed if they didn't list a part they wouldent have it. Now I know I can call.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I hope you realize, that YOU are the one doing the step by step. My engine is already done.

When you get to wheel removal, you can use a puller or find some flat stock like metal banding. The wider the better. I then suspend it usng the vise and punch out the axle. The wheel are brittle and wil break along the edge. So the key is getting under close to the center.

Your 2334 is about the same as my 2333 except for the brush holder.

You cannot have any play with the engine rivets. The armature will drag or jamb.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I got this T-Man. If I get in a bind I'll just use a shotty bomb casing filled with used pinball machine parts! Voltmeter says 1.21 jigawatts and I'm good to go!


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Maybe,... you should enlist the help of ....."Him"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVl2CWK-6cA


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

We don't like to talk about "Him". :laugh: Problem with "Him" is he spends money like its going out of style!!!!! On order...

2343-33 flanged solid back wheel new LIONEL 8 2.00 16.00
2344-PDG NYC F3 dark gray pint 1/2 pint can 1 9.00 9.00 
2353-29 magnetic axle assy knurled 4 5.00 20.00 
2333-44 worm shaft assembly 2 10.00 20.00 
2333-65 worm shaft bearing reproduction 4 2.00 8.00 
2343-79 axle bearing for magnetic axles 8 0.75 6.00 
2343-37 brass worm gear fits mag axle 4 2.50 10.00 
2333-25 window shell F3 clear 1 2.00 2.00 
480-18B black horseshoe washer 4 0.20 0.80 
622-121 slotted diesel/steam mtr brush each 4 0.60 2.40


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

Oh,....HIM needs to be punished!!! ;-P


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

By the time you get done you could have bought a new one.


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

big ed said:


> By the time you get done you could have bought a new one.


But there is no fun in that!!!!:thumbsup:


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

big ed said:


> By the time you get done you could have bought a new one.


It's a family heirloom! Whatever it costs its not enough! 

Besides, what the ol lady don't know won't hurt her.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have yet, seen anyone else use ball bearings instead of bushings. I even posted that at CTT trains too. Didn't even draw a comment.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

You definitely took things to the next level with the ball bearings T-Man. You paid what was it $19.00 a piece or for a set? I have nothing against improving something. Do it with disc brakes on the classic cars all the time. I saw you posted it took some time to get them right. Well done. 

This is new territory for me so I'm going to apply my approach and what I know. The plan is to press out the old axle bushings, strip the truck frames and repaint and rebuild from there. Same goes for the F3 frame, wheel guards etc. I plan on enjoying every step. 

If successful, I'd like my own forum section to be opened so I can offer to do rebuilds under the name "ED SAID" Restorations. You Green? :laugh:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The set of 10. Duratrax makes them. My axles are not magnetration so I do not know if they will fit. They have plenty of sizes, metric too. Since they are bearings they posed two more items on the shaft to line up. One was loctited in, on the truck side. I was determined to minimize the axle slop. Two of them are still around I just can't find them.

The hard part was to press on the lower/inner part of the bearing and not pressure the outer side. I got them all. I have no desire to try it again.

I updated a link in the F-3 thread. FOr some reason I could not get them in the hobbyllnc search. That is where I bought them. My new linc is to another store.

The brass worm gears are not press fit ready. I had to file some , it was off center but worked fine. SOmething for you to look forward too.

Ed is an instigator, I try to ease up on the crazy stuff.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Got a link to the F3 thread T-man?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Classic F-3

It's an old one, a three digit ID number.

Just remember it is tagged as 2333.

A few other threads show up more, if you search 2343.

The brass worm drive wheels show wear by rounding out at the top. I have the old ones to show you.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bloodhound said:


> If successful, I'd like my own forum section to be opened so I can offer to do rebuilds under the name "ED SAID" Restorations. You Green? :laugh:





T-Man said:


> Ed is an instigator, I try to ease up on the crazy stuff.


What Ed are you two talking about? 
Me? :dunno:

Try to help and this is what I get in return?
No respect...No respect. 


The way he tore that locomotive down it looks like he has done it before.
I think he is just testing us. :smokin:


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks for the Link Mr T!



big ed said:


> The way he tore that locomotive down it looks like he has done it before. I think he is just testing us. :smokin:


I'll take that as a compliment Big Ed!  Like anything else you don't join a forum and start braggin about what you can and can't do. Why? Someone can always do better. Without your help and the help of the folks here we'd be going a hell of allot slower. My son and I more than appreciate the help being offered. I can fix just about anything but I'm smart enough to know that arming yourself with knowledge makes for an easier and more precise effort.

I built this from the ground up and I'm finishing up a 2 door hardtop Fury that came with 2 4's factory in 58. Fixing up the old and bringing back the new is a form of time travel for me. God knows I'd loved to have lived in what was a simpler and better time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvTsVm86mY

Now if someone can tell me how these trucks were originally blackened it'd be much appreciated. Looks chemical. Black Oxide?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Its a lot cheaper to fix up trains . The cars a bute. A few years before my era but history restored is history that will will be passed on . It would have taken up less space if you collected cars though.!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A great product for blacking metal on your trains is cold blue that is normally used for gun repairs. I've done a couple of pieces that looked pretty rough and they come out great.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

"Gun blue", I think, John ... not "cold blue".

Birchwood Casey's has good stuff ... their Super Blue works nice.

http://sport.birchwoodcasey.com/Fin...roductID=2eea6f1b-7376-423e-9fb2-ccacffc80906

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's called "cold blue" to distinguish it from the "hot blue" method. Hot bluing involves tanks and heating the solution to treat the metal. Cold blue is intended primarily to be a touch-up bluing that is applied cold by a much simpler process.

Many folks make the cold blue compound, Birchwood Casey is just one of those makers.

With a name like mine, do you think I'd screw up that terminology?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I should have know ... you are the gun-man, of course! :thumbsup:


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

I may be wrong, but, I think gun blueing only works on iron and steel. I don't think it would work on die cast parts.

Maybe, maybe not, what the heck do I know.


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

I purchased an eastwood metal blackening kit awhile back. $39.99 Works great....


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BWA said:


> I may be wrong, but, I think gun blueing only works on iron and steel. I don't think it would work on die cast parts.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not, what the heck do I know.


Actually, I did the pilot of a 2026 with it, it worked great.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ditto for me ... works on cast steel. I'd guess it depends upon the specific type of steel, though.

Stainless steels generally do NOT seem to take the gun blue black.

TJ


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## Bloodhound (Dec 2, 2012)

How much of a gloss affect does the cold blue have John?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Stainless will indeed not take bluing. 

As far as the gloss, there are various brands, and the amount of gloss will largely depend on the finish of the underlying surface. If it's very smooth, it'll probably be pretty glossy, but if it's a satin or mat finish, that's what you'll end up with.


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