# Passenger Operations can be Interesting and Fun - An Inspiration Thread



## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Hey there! I'm starting this thread so I can throw up my collected ideas and insights about passenger operations for everyone to see, and hopefully be inspired by. I'm doing this because all too often it seems passenger operations take a distinct second place to freight on most modeler's layout. This is surely understandable for those of us who are size constrained (and, indeed, who isn't?) but I've seen layouts quadruple the size of what I could get away with who still follow the same policy. The main problem, of course, is that passenger trains take up a lot of space and follow a different playbook than freight. Some people simply don't like waiting at stations. But, I hope this thread will show you that, no matter what size or scale your layout is, you can incorporate at least some meaningful - and fun! - passenger operations.

Many modelers from the newer generation do not realize just how much traffic railroads carried in the age before automobile and air travel became popular. Every self-respecting town had a railroad depot, and you could take the train to almost anywhere from almost anywhere. You could board a train in Galveston, Texas, and get to New York without ever stepping off railroad property. Therefore, passenger operations are often secondary in most modelers mind, when, indeed, they took up a good share of a railroad's traffic. 

To start with, the following examples I have cooked up for my own layout. My layout is planned to be built in a spare bedroom, and will be focused mostly on passenger operations. Here is my (admittedly poorly) drawn track plan for the layout, just so you can get an idea of the relative locations of the towns mentioned. 








Most of what I'll be saying will therefore apply to layouts of this size or above, but even a 4x8 layout can apply these principles. You will simply have to adjust train length and car size for your respective layout sizes. Most of what I am saying applies to 20th century railroading, as well.

*How to Make Passenger Operations on Your Layout More Fun and More Realistic*​
I would recommend you try to figure these things out before building your passenger fleet. However, it is still quite possible to apply these principles to a passenger fleet which has already been built. 

*One: Put Your Layout in a Specific Place and Time* 
Many modelers have already done this step. An important part of knowing how best to model passenger operations on your layout is to know when and where your layout is set. If you're modeling a specific prototype, what part of the prototype is it? If you're modeling a freelanced road, what is your location in relation to major cities? Is your road between, say, New York and Chicago (and therefore sees a lot of luxury passenger service) or in backwoods Tennessee? This point specifically is very important to figuring out how best to model passenger operations on your layout. Besides this, the era of your layout is very important. If your layout is set before the '60's, you can safely say that any passenger traffic is reasonably frequent and profitable, for most lines. If your layout is set after, then you may have trouble financially justifying minor trains like locals. Do your research for the passenger service in your area in your time period for specifics.

My layout is set between the towns of Greensboro and Chapel Hill, North Carolina, in the transition era between 1950 and 1960. Therefore, trains going West to Asheville (a reasonably popular resort town in Western NC in the time I'm modeling), South to Charlotte, North to Washington, DC, East to Raleigh, the capital, and Northwest to Cincinnati and Chicago pass through the town regularly. My layout is a freelanced road but is generally similar to the Southern Railway in scope. 

*Two: Research Service Demand*
After deciding when and where your layout is, the next important step is to decide what kind of service your road provides to points on, and beyond, the layout. In passenger service, points beyond the layout, if your layout is not quite large, are often even more important than points on it. Unless you've been given space to model the mainline between New York and Washington, DC, in its entirety, then it is quite likely that you only have one major city (or even major town, as in my case) on your layout. Therefore, the long-distance heavy passenger trains will almost always be going to a point that's off your layout, rather than on it. This makes figuring out _where_ passenger trains will be going off the layout is almost more important than figuring out where they will go on it.

If you are familiar with the area you're modeling, this step can be as easy as looking at Google Maps and figuring out where your road goes, and how many trains or cars will be going to a certain destination. In general, the number of cars you assign to go to a specific location should go like this, with first having the most cars sent to it:
1. Major Cities (New York, Chicago, Washington)
2. Regional Major Cities (Atlanta, Boston, Cincinnati)
3. Regional Capitals (Tallahassee, Austin)
4. Popular Tourist Towns (Las Vegas (in Transition Era), Niagara Falls)
5. Major Towns (Too many to name specific examples, but Greensboro and Chapel Hill fall under this designation on my layout)
6. Towns (ditto, Burlington and Hillsborough on my layout)
7. Everywhere else (Carrboro and Swepsonville on my Layout)
This should only be a starting point. Some locations may defy the guidelines for traffic, and you should not let them bind you. If a town would see a lot of traffic for any reason, then that should be accurately reflected. This is just to serve as a starting point for your layout.

For an example on my layout, a large number of cars will be going South to Charlotte (the largest city in North Carolina) and, from there, to Atlanta, as well as North to Washington, DC, and New York. Besides that, a number of cars will head west to Asheville, a tourist town, and northwest (via the N&W) to Cincinnati and Chicago. A similar number will head east to Raleigh, the state capital.

*Three: Connecting Railroads*
As important as where your own road provides service is where roads you connect with do. It was quite common in the pre-Amtrak days for railroads to provide connection service through other railroads. This can be seen in trains themselves that had foreign road's cars in their consists. This can be used to provide a lot of operational interest on your road, as well as allowing you to run the cars of other roads over your own. This will probably require you to have at least a rough spatial idea of what foreign roads were in your road's vicinity, and how your road interacted with the foreign road. 

An example on my layout is an Norfolk & Western connection at Winston-Salem, NC, to points to the Northwest, such as Cincinnati and Chicago. This connection (which, I may add, is strictly theoretical and not modeled physically) will allow me to run sleepers on Westbound trains that are bound for Chicago or Cincinnati, as well as run Norfolk & Western equipment on Eastbound trains (Greensboro is to the East of Winston-Salem). Of course, this will depend entirely on what time and type of layout you are modeling. A narrow gauge line will, naturally, be quite unlikely to have any foreign equipment on its rails since most narrow-gauge lines did not connect with other narrow gauge lines. However, if you are modeling something like a bridge route, it could be quite common to have foreign cars on your passenger trains.

*Four: Equipment*
Now that you know where cars will be going, you need to find what equipment to put on your trains. This will, of course, depend on how far whatever train you're putting the equipment on is going, though there is even some variation in this. Generally, long-distance trains will have sleepers, while shorter-distance trains will not. However, some long-distance trains were coach trains, while some short-distance trains carried sleepers which connected with other trains. The equipment placed on a train will also vary based on the level of luxury of the train. Top-of-the-line trains will have all the amenities: private rooms for first-class passengers, lounges for relaxation, dome cars for seeing the scenery, and similar equipment was placed on first-class trains, such as the Broadway Limited and the Super Chief. Secondary trains will get older equipment and less amenities. 

I will go through the train from front to back with tips for equipment on various trains. Of course, the best source for this sort of information is prototypical consists, which can be found in books and at websites such as http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/consists2.htm . 

Power - Generally, most roads wanted to put diesel power on their streamliners after WWII since they were more modern and clean. Before the war, streamliners were the first to receive diesel power, but only a few streamliners were able to get it before the war started. Other than that, all power on passenger trains before WWII was steam, including some streamlined steam. Some roads, such as the N&W, used streamlined steam after the war, but a majority of modern passenger trains after the war used diesel. As diesel replaced steam power, they were relegated to secondary trains and eventually to commuter and local trains before being phased out entirely. Research your specific road to find out their policy on power, including specific models.

Head-End Cars - Top of the line trains generally carried few, if any, head-end cars, besides an RPO. Rather, secondary trains which followed the same route as the top-of-the-line trains, but made more stops and had slower schedules, would carry most of the head-end traffic. Some trains were composed entirely of head-end traffic (think Mail and Express trains). Generally, a train that traveled on a route that would warrant it would have at least a baggage car (or a section of another car) for checked passenger baggage, as well as an area for mail storage. Some roads used express boxcars or other specialized cars for head-end traffic that did not need to be handled enroute, such as express produce. A baggage car would be used for mail storage because that mail might have to be accessed during the trip. 

It was rather common for the transition car between the head-end section and the passenger section to be a combination car of some type. This could be a combination baggage and passenger car, though it was more likely that, on sleeper trains, it would be a baggage-dormitory (or some combination similar; the B&O had baggage-dormitory-lounge cars, for instance) since the crew would need somewhere to sleep on the trip. Other types of combination cars were very common as well, such as baggage-RPOs. 

Coaches - These were not present on all trains. Generally, the coach section, if present, would have coaches seated based on destination. All the passengers going to one location would be in one coach, and the coaches would be arranged based on where they would have to be cut out of the train (if at all). If that never occurred, then passengers sat in whatever coach they wanted, though the coaches were still ostensibly provided for a certain passenger going to a certain place, since the train needed to have a certain seating capacity to meet demand. For example, if a ticket agent told the railway they had sold 56 coach seats to go to a certain location, then the train would have to have at least 56 seats going to that location. Since 56 seats is quite a lot, it is likely that, unless the train was not already filled, another coach would be added into the consist. More on that later. The important thing to take from the coach section is providing enough seats for demand, since most coaches were of approximately the same quality.

Diner - Again, this was not present on all trains. Generally, higher quality day trains and most sleeper trains provided a dining service. This would usually be located in the middle of the train so coach passengers didn’t have to walk through sleepers to get to it. The dining car was usually a self-contained unit, though especially large trains may have both a kitchen and a dining car, or multiple dining cars. Some dining cars were special, such as SP’s articulated dining-kitchen car, or domed cars. These would generally be run on top-of-the-line trains only.

Lounges, Parlors, Taverns, Club Cars - These cars were usually only provided on high-end trains, whether day or night. The theme of high-end leisure space was explored in many different ways, such as Union Pacific’s club cars, but the general theme was to provide a place for passengers to relax outside of their private cabins on long-distance journeys. This, of course, could take many forms, but generally a parlor car where passengers could stretch out their feet or a tavern (or coffee shop or similar) where a passenger could get refreshment short of a full meal were common, where so provided.

Sleepers - Sleepers could take many different forms. Before the 1930s, it was common for ‘sections’ - open areas split up by curtains - to be provided for lower-paying passengers and tourists, while more premium accommodation meant private rooms. The trend towards all customers getting private rooms began in earnest in the 1930s, and few streamlined cars had sections. The myriad number of sleeper types is too much to list here, but, in general, know that sections meant the lowest level of comfort, while compartments were next up the list, followed by drawing rooms and bedrooms and so on. It helps to do research into specific types of cars in order to ascertain what you should equip your train with. Here is a resource for researching Pullman room interiors: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/CARdwgs4.html . The general trend was for sleepers to be placed as far away from the noise and smoke of the engine as possible, though there were exceptions to the rule. Sleepers were also placed at the rear of the train to allow them to be easily set out and picked up at stations en-route, which was a relatively common occurrence. 

Observations - In general, by the transition era, most trains didn’t have an observation car. It was difficult to turn the car at the end of each journey, and you weren’t allowed to go out onto the open vestibule of the observation car while it was moving. However, many of the new streamliners of the late ‘30’s and ‘40’s had an observation since it made a satisfying end to the train, and was popular with passengers for observing the scenery. Therefore, you should be careful with equipping lower-level trains with observation cars, since it was not a common practice. Many popular high-level streamliners had them, but lesser trains probably would not. In trains so equipped, observation cars could take on several forms. Many had some form of sleeper accommodation in them, as well as a lounge area for observing the scenery. Some had domed areas as well, and some took the form of tavern or snack cars. 

Rear-End Cars - Besides Head-End cars, it was also common to see cars tacked onto the end of trains that allowed them to be easily set out while out on the line. This could take the form of an express boxcar or a baggage car. 


For more on equipment, research your specific road to find out what kind of cars they used and for what. The site I listed earlier for consists is very helpful in this regard. If you are doing a freelanced road, research roads which are similar to the one you are modeling, since many regions had specific needs common to only them. One example of this was separated coaches on Southeastern roads, which had to have separate sections for black and white patrons in order to conform to segregation laws. Not every coach was like this, but some were. This type of fact can only be found through research.

There is always the urge to run long passenger trains, but, remember, the main thing limiting how long your passenger train can be is the capacity of your station tracks, and the capacity of your passing sidings (if your layout has a single-track mainline). It might be possible to run a train that is longer than your passing sidings if all the others aren't, but do not try to run multiple trains exceeding your passenger siding length at once.

*Five: Putting Together a (Basic) Timetable*
The next important step, after you've decided what trains you should run, and where they are going, is fitting them together in a way that makes sense. This will depend entirely on how big your layout is, and how many people you expect to see when operating the layout. 

Now, there are many ways to organize a timetable. I will simply go over the basics. The first thing you should look into when organizing a timetable is a basic idea of when which train will leave and arrive at each station. Remember that all trains do not need to stop at all stations. Once you have a basic idea of this, then the next thing you should organize is how trains will get past each other, if that ever needs to occur. This means finding where you can have meets. This should probably be the first thing you figure out for your timetable. In order to find where trains are likely to meet, run the trains at the (approximate) starting times for each and see where they physically meet. Hopefully, this will occur at or near passing sidings. If it doesn't, then you will ave to have one train wait 'in the hole' while the other one passes. Also use this opportunity to see how long it takes a typical train to go around the layout, taking into account the times for station stops, switching, etc. After you have done this, then, if you need to, space out (or condense) when the trains start. Now, you have at least a basic timetable together, and you can start operating your passenger trains. 

Your timetable should be refined over time as you operate the layout. If there is a constant problem with one train getting stuck in a place for a long time, or one train not being able to get past another, the problem may just lay in the timetable. Be prepared to change it, until it works well. 

*Six: Basic Operations for Passenger Trains*
There are a few basic types of operations which can be performed by passenger trains. It is, of course, possible to run a few different types of trains, notably limiteds (which only stop at a few stations), locals (which stop at all stations) and commuter trains, but I will be notating some ideas that are not often considered when running passenger trains.

*Servicing locomotives.* Besides the standard fare of refueling locomotives at end points, and turning them on turntables for runs back to the other end of the line, locomotives can be serviced at intermediate stations by water standpipes on the platform (in the case of steam). In the case of diesel, it is possible to add more power onto the train in order to get over a difficult, mountainous part of the line. All these operations add interest to a simple station stop.

On my layout, there is a relatively small locomotive servicing area at Greensboro, including a turntable for turning locomotives and cars. This is still enough to add a good amount of operational interest, however.

*Servicing cars.* Unlike freight cars, railroads wanted passenger cars to look their best for when passengers were to board them. For that reason, passenger cars were not only switched in or out of trains but they were always washed at coach yards, right before being sent to the platform, so they would be freshly cleaned. There were exceptions to this rule, of course. RPOs were usually not cleaned for weeks at a time and noticeably dirtier than other cars. 

Besides being cleaned, passenger cars also had to have their linens changed and cleaned and diners had to be resupplied at commissaries. This can make for some interesting operations at terminals big enough to support them. 

On my layout, Greensboro features a reasonably large coach yard and a commissary for resupplying dining cars.

*Mail and express operations.* For decades, railroad's most important passenger cargo was not the passengers themselves but rather mail and express traffic, which helped to make up for the losses incurred by expensive passenger service. Many trains were maintained through the post-war years simply because their mail and express contracts were so profitable. Further, the Railway Express Agency (REA) was one of the most popular ways to ship packages long distances before the advent of Federal Express and UPS. Almost every small town had an REA office, and many towns - even relatively minor ones - would regularly see REA cars set out and picked up by the railroad.

Mail and express cars are varied, but relatively short, so they do not require especially large radii curves to operate well. Besides baggage cars, mail and express was also shipped in express boxcars and express reefers - both similar to their normal, freight counterparts, except for an improved braking system, improved trucks, and steam and signal lines. 

Adding mail and express operations to your layout is quite simple, as it only takes a car or two to be added to each train in order to replicate it. In addition, it is a good idea to have an REA building and/or a post office annex near major stations. The REA building would receive express boxcars and baggage cars, while the post office annex would receive the RPOs and other mail cars. 

Not only can mail and express operations be interesting at terminals, but they can also be replicated on almost any size layout and at almost any size station. Even small stations would regularly see REA traffic. This can be replicated by having an express boxcar or baggage car at the front of your train. Or, you can have a train that regularly sets out and picks up an express car. It is also possible to run trains whose whole consist is mail and express traffic. These mail-and-express trains would run on first-class schedules, but would not have any passengers on them except for a rider coach on the end for railroad employees. Their station stops would be relatively long to allow mail and express to be exchanged wherever they stopped. 

I highly recommend the book Express, Mail & Merchandise Service by Jeff Wilson if you're more interested in this subject: https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12802

On may layout, Greensboro features a sizable REA building, as well as a post-office annex. The REA building is below the coach yard, while the post office annex is located directly next to the station tracks. 

*Setting out and picking up cars.* This was actually a common occurrence, though most common for head-end cars and sleepers. One train would leave a car in a siding or station track for another to take on to a further station. This could be performed by any train, but it was generally common for certain trains to be designated ‘feeder trains’ for larger trains, and to have the sole purpose of bringing passengers to connect to that train. This was often done by cutting in an additional car rather than having the passengers re-board the connecting train. It was also common for a train to leave a sleeper in a siding for passengers to board in the evening, and then for the train they are connecting with to pick up the sleeper (gently) during the night.

*Running special trains.* This topic is subject to infinite variation, but I will list a few ideas. Trains that brought people to special events (sports games, conventions, etc.) were very common when trains were the main form of intercity travel. A few ideas of trains you can run:

Extras - You don't only have to run those trains on the schedule. Perhaps a company has hired an extra train to take its employees to a special location, or something of that nature. The ideas are endless. The important point is that trying to fit in an extra train with others is a very interesting operational obstacle.

Big Game Specials - Perhaps one of the towns on your layout has a popular sports team. Special trains run for sports games could be very long indeed, and, depending on how big the game was, dozens of trains could be run for it alone. On my layout, Chapel Hill has a relatively popular sports team and so many of this type of train could be run. 

Political Campaign Train - This type of train would be best run on a layout set in the transition era or before, due to the rise of air travel. This type of train would be run with equipment that corresponds to the importance of the political candidate; a candidate for president would get a better train than one running for governor. These trains would be the absolute top of the line in terms of importance, and every other train would have to get out of their way. While great for the candidate, these trains were a headache for the railroads. 

*Seven: Advanced Operational Techniques*

*Modeling variable demand.* NOTE: The following idea has been inspired by Bill Darnaby’s article in the October 1993 Model Railroader, ‘Card-order Operation for Passenger Trains’. Credit for it goes to him.

One interesting way to increase operational variety is to model variable loads for different situations. For example, during the Christmas travel time, more passengers will be traveling on all trains. Rather than running your passenger trains as if nothing had changed, it is more operationally interesting to reflect the increased demand placed on them. This can be done with a system similar to the waybill system popularly used for freight cars. The way this system works is that all passenger cars have a car card listing their capacity. Coaches will list their number of seats, and sleepers list their number and type of beds, etc. Then, for a certain train, a number of ‘Demand cards’ are assigned. If the demand cars exceed the combined seating or sleeping capacity of the train, then more cars will have to be cut in to make up for the demand. In this way, the size and makeup of your trains can be varied daily rather than staying the same at all times.

Demand cards will be taken into account when the train is first made up, as well as at all stations it stops at. At the start of its journey, the operator who is making up the train will look at his demand cards and see if the seating or sleeping capacity of the train will be enough to handle the demand for that day. If it is, then he sends the train on its way in its normal configuration. If not, then he will have to add more cars. As the train gets down the line, the next major place where it stops will also look at its demand cars. If more passengers are boarding at a certain location than are getting off, and this causes them to exceed the seating or sleeping capacity of the train, then they will have to cut in more cars.

Let's take an example from the Oak City Limited below. The train normally runs with a consist of a baggage car, a baggage-RPO, two coaches, a diner, and at least a couple of sleepers of various kinds. Let's say that the coaches have 56 seats each, so the train has a capacity of 112 coach passengers on a typical day. 

Now, let's say that the ticket agent at Greensboro sold 57 coach tickets for the Oak City Limited on a weekend, heading for Asheville. There are already 95 coach passengers on the train when it pulls into Greensboro. Referencing the demand cards, 20 of those 95 passengers will be getting off the train. This means that there will be a deficit of 20 coach seats. This means that a new car will have to be cut into the train. Therefore, when the train stops in Greensboro, a switcher will have to add another coach to its consist to handle the increased demand.

This concept does not only have to apply to passenger cars. It can apply to baggage, mail and express traffic as well. Every car card for an express or baggage car could have a capacity for a certain number of parcels or shipments. Then, wherever the train stops, parcels could be 'exchanged' by switching out the waybill cards with those that are already at the station. In this way, a train can feel like its picking up and setting out parcels and mail rather than just pretending to.

I strongly recommend you read the October 1993 Model Railroader article on Page 74 which I took inspiration for this idea from. It explains in very well and makes it very easy to add this operation to your layout.

*En-route mail pickup.* An interesting model opportunity is afforded in having mail pick-ups while the train is moving. This was a very common occurrence in prototypical trains; a postal clerk in the RPO would lean the arm for catching mail bags out of the window of the RPO, which would then pick up a fresh bag of mail without the train having to stop. Then, the mail could be sorted while the train continued on.

This can be modeled on your layout by installing mail cranes at stations. Perhaps, if using the card-order operation idea above, you could have a waybill with the mail that was picked up at the station from which you are picking up mail - another way to add operational variety. This can be done at the smallest stations since all that is required is a mail crane. 

*Seven: Case Studies*
Here are a few different trains which I have made up for my own layout, and which hopefully can inspire your own trains. 

*Oak City Limited* - #17 Westbound, #18 Eastbound - Raleigh to Winston-Salem [Here is the name of the train and its number going both East and Westbound, as well as its origin and destination cities.]

Feeder train to the Empire Limited at Raleigh, with service to the Northwest part of the state, including Greensboro and Winston-Salem. Mostly a coach train with sleepers attached as need demands. Offers through service to Columbus and Cincinnati through Norfolk & Western’s Pocahontas, and thus carries a N&W sleeper Eastbound on some trips and a through sleeper Westbound. Also offers through sleeper service to Asheville and points beyond. 
[Here is a description of the train’s purpose and a brief list of its connections, as well as an insight into what cars are carried on it.]

At Greensboro, this train makes a half hour stop. A baggage car or RPO heading north or south is sometimes swapped out for one heading west or east (depending on the train) and it is quite common for there to be a ‘College coach’ for students travelling to or from UNC Greensboro or North Carolina A&T (in the latter case, a separated coach) attached to either train during school breaks or at the start of terms. 
[Here is a look into what the train will do on the layout (Greensboro is the only town modeled that the train stops at) as well as more insight into what cars will be placed onto the train, and why.]

Typical Consist
[This section shows two ‘typical’ consists of the train, going both East and West. The train may not actually be modeled with this number of cars, but it gives an idea for what cars will be placed onto the train and where they are going.] 

#17 Westbound leaving Greensboro
F-8a class 4-8-2 #3041 
[The cars are listed by their type, number, origin, and destination.]
Streamlined Baggage #1155 - from Raleigh to Winston-Salem 
Heavyweight Baggage Messenger #824 - from Charlotte via Greensboro to Winston-Salem
Streamlined Baggage-Mail #2004 - from Raleigh to Asheville
Streamlined Coach #5000 - from Raleigh to Asheville
Streamlined Coach #5015 - from Raleigh to Winston-Salem
Separated ‘College’ Heavyweight Coach #4854 - from Greensboro to Asheville
Streamlined Diner #2735 - from Raleigh to Asheville
Heavyweight 10-6 Sleeper #6879 - from Raleigh to Cincinnati via N&W
Heavyweight 4-Compartment-Lounge-Observation #9006 - from Raleigh to Asheville

#18 Eastbound entering Greensboro
F-2 class 4-6-2 #483
Streamlined Baggage #1155 - from Winston-Salem, terminate Greensboro
Streamlined Baggage-Mail #2003 - ditto
Streamlined Coach #5000 - from Winston-Salem to Raleigh
Streamlined Coach #5024 - from Charlotte via Winston-Salem to Raleigh
Heavyweight Diner #2455 - from Asheville, terminate Greensboro
Streamlined Lounge #5978 - from Knoxville to Raleigh
Heavyweight 8-5 Sleeper #6902 ‘Mount Craig’ - from Asheville to Raleigh
N&W 10-6 Sleeper - from Cincinnati to Raleigh

Additional Cars:
[This section lists ideas for additional cars to be added onto the train at random. How often these cars are put onto the train is indicated by the first letters - O stands for often, SO stands for somewhat often, ST stands for sometimes, and R stands for rarely. CT stands for ‘Certain Times’, and is followed by what times those are. Following this designation is a brief description of the purpose of each car that might be placed onto the train.]
SO - Switch North or Southbound Baggage Car for East or Westbound Baggage/Express/Mail Car
CT: School Breaks - Add Heavyweight or Separated Heavyweight car to either train for college students on break or returning from it
SO - Add or remove Diner (or similar) from train heading to Asheville via Winston-Salem
SO - Add or remove Lounge car from train heading to Asheville via Winston-Salem
ST - Add sleeper bound for Cincinnati, Cleveland, or Chicago via N&W connection at Winston-Salem from Charlotte
R - Add business car, upscale sleeper (6-3) or upscale observation (4-Compartment-Lounge-Observation) to train for Chicago or Asheville

As you can see, the Oak City Limited’s cars now all have a clear purpose and destination. Rather than simply running around my layout and then going back to storage, the cars now all seems to have a better reason for being run than that they look nice, or that they add an obstacle for freight operation. In addition, if I ever want to add cars to the train, or replace them, ideas for what cars could be added are already readily available, adding infinite variation to every train.

*No. 105/106 Limited* - #105 Westbound, #106 Eastbound - Raleigh-Winston-Salem
A secondary train which follows the same route as the superior Oak City Limited, but stops at more stations and provides more connections. Also sees more significant head-end traffic than the Oak City Limited. Mostly a coach train, similar to the Oak City Limited, though it does haul the occasional sleeper.

The train first makes a stop at Burlington after coming from Raleigh. At Burlington, the train sometimes picks up a coach or sleeper brought from Chapel Hill. After stopping in Burlington, the train makes a stop in Greensboro to set out and pick up head-end traffic, as well as pick up any sleepers or coaches which could not be put onto the Oak City Limited.

Typical Consist

#105 Westbound leaving Burlington
K-8b class 4-6-2 #3238
Heavyweight Baggage #922 - from Raleigh to Winston-Salem
Express Boxcar #7454 - from Raleigh to Greensboro
Heavyweight Baggage-Mail #1765 - from Raleigh to Greensboro
Heavyweight Baggage-Coach #2366 - from Raleigh to High Point via Greensboro
Streamlined Coach #4979 - from Raleigh to Winston-Salem
Heavyweight Coach #4682 - from Raleigh to Asheville
Heavyweight 14-Section Tourist Sleeper #6865 - from High Point via Burlington to Asheville

#106 Eastbound leaving Greensboro
K-8b class 4-6-2 #3238
Express Boxcar #7458 - from High Point via Greensboro to Durham
Express Boxcar #7454 - from High Point via Greensboro to Raleigh
Heavyweight Baggage #920 - from Winston-Salem to Raleigh
Heavyweight RPO #1723 - ditto
Streamlined Coach #5001 - ditto
Streamlined Coach #5005 - from Charlotte via Greensboro to Durham
Heavyweight Coach #4666 - from Winston-Salem to Raleigh
Heavyweight Baggage-Mail #1765 - from Asheville via Burlington to Chapel Hill

An oft-neglected modeling opportunity is the long-range secondary train. These trains ran on the same routes as higher quality, luxury trains, but made more stops and had slower schedules. Generally, these trains carried a lot of head-end traffic since the highest level trains carried almost none. Since my layout will not include any top-of-the-line trains (the Oak City Limited, a feeder train, is about as plush as it gets) my secondary train is not quite as heavily loaded with head-end cars as some might be.


*Please note* this thread is not complete yet. I will be adding more ideas and case studies as I can. 

Thank you for reading! I hope I have inspired you to have more realistic and more exciting passenger operations on your pike. 

If you have any questions, please ask!

Happy Modeling!

Dreadnought


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Just going to reserve this post in case I run out of space in the first one.

Dreadnought


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## IronManStark (Jan 15, 2017)

I have to admit. My layout is 80% passenger trains! I love the way they look. I can see freight trains anytime, anywhere. I never got to see the old heavyweight cars running the tracks. I have only seen am track run through my neighborhood once. So for me I love to watch my collection of passenger trains run in circles 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks for posting, very informative and interesting.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Very interesting and well researched article.

Many of us likely have never thought much of the
possibility of switching action when running
passenger trains. Your descriptions do present
ideas that could offer a lot of interesting moves
in the passenger station yard.

I feel sure that more than a few of our younger
members would have no idea of the extensive
passenger train operations that happened in
the U.S. Your writing will be a real eye opener
for them.

I am familiar with the facilities of St. Louis Union
Station, once one of the nation's busiest, now only what's
left of a failing tourist attraction. Trains arrived from all
of the East Coast and some of the West Coast as well
as the Midwest and South. It's tracks were a complex
that enabled any train to depart for either East or
West destinations connecting to North and South
routes. In addition to the huge
main back in train station there was adjacent, a large Railway
Express Agency building, and tunnels to the huge
St. Louis main post office across the street. 

Here's what wikipedia says about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Station_(St._Louis)

It would be an ideal prototype for anyone who wanted
to model a big city Union Station.

Don


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Thanks for the inspiration*

I've spent today researching the Great Northern "Cascadian" - the Seattle-to-Spokane "milk run". As you noted, it was more a "mail train" than passenger train, and was discontinued shortly after the Post Office discontinued mail sorting on trains


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Interesting, what sites are you using to research that, GN? I'd love some more references.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Make this post a "sticky."*

Dreadnought;

Excellent post! This info should be kept easily available for the long term. In effect, you are creating a reference book of Passenger train information. Many modelers, both now, and later, will want to look something up here. Ask admin. if your post can be made a "sticky" post, so that it stays available.

Great job!

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*How about some heavyweights?*

Dreadnought;

I'm also a passenger train fan, but model an earlier era. (1920s) Could you post equivalent info for heavyweight cars? That would help me, and others, a lot.

Thanks;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*My sources (so far)*

1) There is a Wikipedia article titled "Cascadian - (train). I didn't paste in the link because this site tends to mangle links that end in ). There is a description of the cars and a consist listing. The NW5 is "cute"; but this uses boring-old (and readily available) F7A's.
2) The idea that the loss of mail-sorting caused the train's demise came from the newspaper article in the Wikipedia article's references - I also found this idea more generally in the book I have: "The Great Northern Railway: A History" by Hidy, Hidy and Scott
3) http://www.gngoat.org/cascadian.htm is a GN brochure for the Cascadian from 1939. This contains an interesting comment about the food available - my book shows a 17-item food and drink "menu" from the same era showing everything from a "meat sandwich" (doesn't specify what kind!) for 15 cents to a "Wenatchee Apple" for 5 cents. More broadly, this is (to me) a nice little insight on food service in coach class before café cars like the later "ranch car".

And I'm not done looking. I know of two other GN historical websites I haven't looked at yet, and I also want to know if the Northern Pacific had a similar train.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

traction fan said:


> Dreadnought;
> 
> I'm also a passenger train fan, but model an earlier era. (1920s) Could you post equivalent info for heavyweight cars? That would help me, and others, a lot.
> 
> ...


Most, if not all of the information I referred to applied to both heavy and lightweight cars. What type of information did you mean?


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Well, apparently you can only edit your posts for a certain amount of time after creating them unless you contact an admin. I'll try doing so, but here's what I _was_ going to put up:

*An In-Depth Look at Passenger Equipment*​
Many modelers have only a vague understanding of the intricacies of passenger train equipment. While most people understand that there passenger trains had baggage cars, coaches, and sleepers, few understand the code behind what a 10-6 sleeper was, or the difference between a lounge car and a coach, and other distinctions. Here, I will have an in-depth look into different types of passenger cars, and their many distinctions.

*Sleepers*​Sleepers were an innovation in passenger train travel since they allowed passengers to stay on a train overnight without having to try and sleep in uncomfortable coach chairs. This allowed longer-distance and more comfortable journeys, which was very important for a growing country like the United States. 

Sleepers are some of the most varied of car types, with the Pullman company, Budd and ACF fielding many different types of sleepers over many years. 

*Heavyweight Sleepers*​The Pullman was the original sleeping car, and it evolved directly into the heavyweight sleeper. Heavyweight cars varied, from the most luxurious, top-of-the-line accommodation to the lowly 16 section sleeper.

12-1 Sleeper​








A model of a Pennsylvania Railroad 12-1 Sleeper in HO Scale.
The 12-1 Sleeper (standing for 12-section, 1 drawing room) were the first steel passenger cars. They were also extremely popular, with almost 4,000 being produced. The 12 sections in the car were the cheapest type of accommodation available. The only form of privacy available for the passenger in a section was a curtain. The section was mainly used by tourists and others traveling on tight budgets, and cars like the 12-1 were built for maximum occupancy since sleeping cars carried relatively few people in them normally. 

The somewhat odd pairing of the low quality section with the high quality drawing room can be explained by the fact the drawing room was intended for families. Well-to-do patrons preferred cars with all private rooms. 

This type of car was used on all types of trains, though as the heavyweight era faded they became a staple of secondary trains. High-end trains of the '30's and '40's always had better accommodation than could be provided by a 12-1 sleeper, and it was rare to see a heavyweight car on a top-of-the-line lightweight train in any event. Many of these cars were later turned into other types of cars, which differed so markedly from the 12-1 that modeling one with a 12-1 is quite difficult. 

In the 1930's, many 12-1 sleepers, like all Pullmans, received air conditioning upgrades. Exactly what type of air conditioning was received (there were electro-mechanical, steam ejector and ice-based types) depended on the specific road involved.

Modeling the 12-1​Being extremely popular, the 12-1 is widely available in the two most popular scales for modeling passenger operations, HO and N. Several different manufacturers produce this type of car. In HO Scale, Walthers produces a 12-1 sleeper available in many road names, while the Branchline series of kits (now discontinued) included a plethora of 12-1 sleepers. Bethlehem Car Works produces a 12-1 kit currently, and IHC also made a 12-1 sleeper. In N scale, Micro-Trains produces a 12-1 sleeper available in several road names.

Using the 12-1 on your Layout​If you are modeling the heavyweight era, the 12-1 is your friend if you want to quickly build up a heavyweight sleeper fleet. This type of car would be ubiquitous on sleeper trains, though as the era ended they became more rare on better trains. If you run any type of secondary train in the heavyweight or transition era, a 12-1 sleeper would probably be on it. As the focus shifted to lightweight cars, 12-1 sleepers became even more common on secondary trains. If you are modeling a post-war period, the 12-1 should probably only be seen on lower class trains to reflect its poor accommodations. Many 12-1 sleepers were later converted into other types of car, such as lounges or all room cars, to make up for the fact that the section was no longer in high demand. This means that, by the lightweight era, many 12-1s would no longer be 12-1s (and therefore that they should not be extremely common on lightweight-era layouts).


10-1-2 Sleeper​








A model of a Pullman pool sleeper with a New York Central style livery in HO Scale. This sleeper has received an air conditioning upgrade.
The 10-1-2 sleeper was also a very common arrangement. This car had 10 open sections, a drawing room, and 2 compartments. Basically, this car was a slightly adjusted 12-1 sleeper with slightly better arrangements. It was still primarily a section car, since railroads preferred open sections (since they brought in more passengers and, therefore, more revenue). 

In comparison to the lowly section and the top-of-the-line drawing room, the compartment was a middle of the road arrangement that was meant for travelers who weren't desperate for cash but also unable to pay for expensive single rooms. Compartments had two beds in the same room, and are generally the counterpart to double-bed rooms in hotels today.

The 10-1-2 sleepers were converted in great numbers to air-conditioned sleepers to reflect their versatility. Few (if any) Pullmans which remained in sleeper service did not receive air conditioning. The HO Scale Walthers model reflects this fact, as it is a model of a car which has received an air conditioning upgrade.

Modeling the 10-1-2​In HO Scale, Walthers and Branchline kits are both available in the form of 10-1-2 sleepers, both in several road names. In general, the 10-1-2 and the 12-1 (and the 8-1-2, for that matter) had similar, if not identical roof arrangements, meaning it is only a matter of changing the window arrangements to convert a 12-1 to a 10-1-2, or an 8-1-2. In N scale, Micro-Trains produces a 10-1-2 model in several road names.

Using the 10-1-2 on your Layout​The 10-1-2 and the 12-1 have generally similar uses, though the 10-1-2 would have held onto top-of-the-line placement longer than the 12-1 did. The 10-1-2 is quite a versatile car, as it has accommodations for every budget level. This means that you can comfortably place a 10-1-2 on almost any train, though, remember, high-end trains in the late era would probably only have one 10-1-2 (or none at all) to maintain their air of exclusivity. 

Later in the era, 10-1-2s were not converted in as large numbers as the 12-1 since they at least had a decent amount of non-section space. There were also less 10-1-2s, however. 


I'll work on it.

Dreadnought


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Was that the type of information you were looking for, Traction? I'm currently trying to see if I can get a new thread started on this same topic when I am able to fully combine all of my research together, since it's not possible to edit your posts after a certain period of time.


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*A weekend spent "Armchair Model Railroading"*

After studying the 1955 GN timetable that's the first reference to the Wikipedia article about GN's "Cascadian", I realized why it existed in the first place: Both the Empire Builder and Western Star crossed the state of Washington in the middle of the night. But having spent this weekend reading further, I've come to the conclusion that if one really wanted to model a GN passenger train of the 1950's up to the BN merger, the answer is literally in my back yard. Four times a day there would have been a train of GN passenger cars headed by Spokane, Portland and Seattle Alco PA's between Spokane and Pasco, WA. SP&S had their own track between Spokane and Pasco, and had a real "thing" for Alco power. Westbound, Empire Builder cars headed for Portland, OR would hook up with NP North Coast Limited cars headed for Portland at Pasco (or Western Star cars with NP's Mainstreeter cars); and the process would reverse eastbound. 

But for me, it's some plan for a future layout. Right now, my plans for a passenger train are my Bachmann Full Domes, a GN dummy Con-Cor RDC I've had for 25 years (Alaska Railroad did it), and a suitable locomotive; probably a Kato Amtrak F40PH.


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Sounds good GN, I've been doing a lot of 'Armchair Model Railroading' myself and unfortunately will continue having to for at least another year until I can get some space together to model something. I might be able to throw up a small layout in the Fall but we'll have to see. So right now I'm doing more passenger car research. I've just ordered some of Robert J. Wayner's excellent books on the subject and I'll be sharing my knowledge with all of you once it gets here. I'll probably make a new thread to do so.

Cheers,

Dreadnought


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Dept. Of Corrections*

In my previous post I implied that the SP&S used Alco PA's for passenger operations. I have found this to be incorrect - SP&S used EMD locomotives for passenger service. In 1947-1948 they purchased three F3A's and an E7A. They would go on to purchase four F7A's and four GP9's with steam generators. hwell:


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Nice thread, but I'm crushed that of all the towns in NC, you leave out my town, CARY, with its cool new train station (which I use a lot). CARY gets no respect it seems, due to its acronymic interpretation (Containment Area for Relocated Yankees), but is really a nice place to live, with its draconian restrictions on billboards and commercial signs and esthetics, 31 clean and tidy little city parks, walling trails and wide-streets poilcies, and interesting local politics. And our new train station, which I use a lot, is great!


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Lee; you keep publicising your town & you'll have all us yankees moving down there.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2017)

Lots of good text and research used to create this thread. The author has a good plan to meet his goal of realistic passenger train operations. 

Count me in the column of those who exclusively run passenger trains. My wife and I are building a new O-Gauge layout that will embrace the best of passenger trains that graced our rails. In my opinion, you just can't beat beautiful passenger trains on a layout compared to anything else.

Thanks for a very informative thread. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks for the great feedback, guys. 

I'd love to have included Cary but it's too close to Raleigh! I would like to have Raleigh if I'm going to have a town like Cary, and I don't think I can fit a good representation of Raleigh in a bedroom... I suppose if Cary is the 'containment zone' everywhere else is 'uncontained?' The way people drive down here certainly makes it seem so...


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Thanks for the info*



Dreadnought said:


> Was that the type of information you were looking for, Traction? I'm currently trying to see if I can get a new thread started on this same topic when I am able to fully combine all of my research together, since it's not possible to edit your posts after a certain period of time.


Dreadnought;

Yes. This info is what I was asking for. Thank you. Have you asked admin. about getting your passenger car info thread made into a sticky thread? I think it would be useful to many modelers and shouldn't just get thrown on the pile of old threads. Great job!:appl: Looking forward to more.

regards:

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn intimated to me that it is against policy to sticky every 'good' thread, but said that I might put it under that sticky for threads on 'How-to, etc'. I may do that.

Anyway, I've been working on something similar but different. Here's a little sneak peek:








Arriving soon, hopefully..

Cheers,

Dreadnought


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*See what you started?*

In 1947 the Spokane, Portland and Seattle bought three F7A's equipped with steam generators for their Spokane-Pasco-Portland operation with GN and NP - and promptly decided the "stock" steam generators were inadequate and replaced them. Why? In 1948 they added a single E7A. Why? Did the F3's have big enough water tanks for the bigger steam generators . . . or did they follow parent NP's practice of having water tanks in baggage cars? For that matter, was that peculiar to the NP or was it common practice? I aim to find out.

Glad to see you back online - I thought about "that passenger car guy in NC" when I saw reports of the flooding this week


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## Dreadnought (Apr 19, 2016)

Yeah, luckily the middle part of the state where Charlotte is doesn't see much flooding. It's mostly the east and west.

Something the Southern found out the hard way in the 1916 Asheville flood..









Glad you're keeping up your research though :thumbsup:


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*SP&S passenger locomotives*

What I came up with surprised me . . . prior to the E7A and F3A's (I mistakenly said they were F7A's in my last post); the SP&S had three oil-burning 4-8-4 Baldwin "Northerns" purchased new in 1938, which were used to pull the Empire Builder/North Coast Limited cars from Spokane to Portland and back. With the coming of the diesels, the Baldwins were relegated to the Western Star/ Mainstreeter service, where they lasted until the mid-1950's. One of them (#700) survived and is apparently in operable condition


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