# Lionel's new Warranty policy in regards to service stations



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Warranty Repairs Notice | Lionel


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionel.com





Read and comment below.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually very happy to see this. Solves all the problem of begging them for warranty reimbursement! Now I can just fix them and bill the customer.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

That still doesn't solve the out of warranty repair issue where there are no parts diagrams listed on Lionel's website.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

lou1985 said:


> That still doesn't solve the out of warranty repair issue where there are no parts diagrams listed on Lionel's website.


A question I'm going to ask Ryan when I see them in a couple of weeks.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

They only paid SS $35.00 to make repairs under warranty anyway. Should be interesting.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Like John, I prefer the new system. Much red tape with the current setup. As far as parts diagrams for newer engines, what few they have put up show most items not available anyway.
The idea that the factory won’t supply Lionel parts vs using whole engines is nuts. I’ll be curious to know where the MTH engines Lionel is acquiring will be made. Hopefully still in Korea where parts can be had without having to bring in complete items.

Pete


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

Norton said:


> Like John, I prefer the new system. Much red tape with the current setup. As far as parts diagrams for newer engines, what few they have put up show most items not available anyway.
> The idea that the factory won’t supply Lionel parts vs using whole engines is nuts. I’ll be curious to know where the MTH engines Lionel is acquiring will be made. Hopefully still in Korea where parts can be had without having to bring in complete items.
> 
> Pete


At this point even part numbers for boards and smoke units would be fine by me, as those are what usually need replacement anyway.


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## 3railbnsf (Apr 2, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually very happy to see this. Solves all the problem of begging them for warranty reimbursement! Now I can just fix them and bill the customer.


Wouldn't this also give them reason to cancel future training classes for technicians. If so you may need to modify your signature line!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

They ”canceled” service training after Mike was moved to NC. Thats a big part of the problem. There has been no formal training since the introduction of the RCMC and Railsounds lite boards.
For those that have training we can rely on reading the markings on the board to figure out what signals should be there along with an enterprising individual who has done some of the legwork here.
As its now almost impossible to repair to component level, repair is down to board swapping. Not much skill required there.

Pete


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Just curious, and I wonder, would they be willing to let the average capable owner remove defective part and send in for a replacement part, as opposed to sending in the whole blasted unit?


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"Just curious, and I wonder, would they be willing to let the average capable owner remove defective part and send in for a replacement part, as opposed to sending in the whole blasted unit?"

Suspect not although there may be case by case exceptions. You send them a picture of the damaged part and proof of purchase for the warranty and they send you the part. But I'm guessing this will be the exception, not the rule. Too many things to go wrong. If you are personal friends with Ryan Kunkle or Dave Olson, maybe.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

They don’t want old boards any more. If you are sure which one is bad you can just order it. Early on you had to return a RCMC to get a replacement but no more. At service school they actually made it a point they don’t want anyone repairing to component level as it takes too much time. Its still possible though in some cases.

Pete


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## 3railbnsf (Apr 2, 2018)

So Lionel won't repair out of warranty items and they aren't training anyone outside of the corporate walls how to repair anything, how do I have out of warranty products repaired 5, 10 or 20 years from now when all the guys who do it now are gone?


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

3railbnsf said:


> So Lionel won't repair out of warranty items and they aren't training anyone outside of the corporate walls how to repair anything, how do I have out of warranty products repaired 5, 10 or 20 years from now when all the guys who do it now are gone?


That's getting off the subject. We're talking "warranty" repair here, and not "out-of-warranty" repair.

I'm sure there will be plenty of privateer repairmen in the future that will be adequately able to repair non-warranty issues.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Makes sense to me . . .


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> They don’t want old boards any more. If you are sure which one is bad you can just order it. Early on you had to return a RCMC to get a replacement but no more. At service school they actually made it a point they don’t want anyone repairing to component level as it takes too much time. Its still possible though in some cases.
> 
> Pete


You can send in RCMC and get them reprogramed. Did that for my J3a Hudson with five chuffs just last summer.

While I really don't care either way as I have no service stations near me, I hope Lionel has the man power for the increase in work.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Well, kick in the teeth, I discovered last night while running trains the club's CAB2 remote had the dreaded blank line vertically through the LCD number touchpad area. We previously had sent it in so this is round 2 for this remote. So double whammy- between the policy and concern of Lionel having the parts to fix it, opening up the RMA today.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Brings home the point that these do fail and what happens when they run out of parts? Mine is off to repair as I type this.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Brings home the point that these do fail and what happens when they run out of parts? Mine is off to repair as I type this.
> 
> Pete


😱 😱😱😱😱😱

I've never looked but there's no parts diagram for these on Lionel's website? Maybe it's time since these will be considered out of warranty, to release a parts list. Figure they would want this off their hands sooner than later anyway. Some good techs out there that could repair these, a few on this forum.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

There is essentially just one board in there. A couple of tiny daughter boards but really little anyone could repair other than the LCDs.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

3railbnsf said:


> Wouldn't this also give them reason to cancel future training classes for technicians. If so you may need to modify your signature line!


Why do I have to modify my signature? Nothing about my status is changing.


Mixed Freight said:


> Just curious, and I wonder, would they be willing to let the average capable owner remove defective part and send in for a replacement part, as opposed to sending in the whole blasted unit?


And exactly how do they identify that "average capable owner"? Offering that option open's Pandora's Box to anyone that thinks they're capable. When you've been in the repair game for a while, you'll get to see a lot of ugly stuff that was done by "average capable owners"!


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I assume that Lionel will continue to at some point train repair folks on all their products, just not for warranty service, which will be at the mother ship only. It's in their best interest to have post-warranty service available from "Factory Authorized Service Stations" such as Hennings and similar expert dealers. If they don't, this is a serious oversight for the long run. Probably worth asking Lionel leadership about this soon.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lionel has stated that local repair will continue for out of warranty work. Service Stations can opt out of service altogether though I am not sure why they would. There was never any money to be made on warranty work. Given the time spent on the actual repair, plus parts ordering and paper work you were working below minimum wage these days.

Pete


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## 3railbnsf (Apr 2, 2018)

I guess what I am saying John is how are you renewing your certification with Lionel as a repair tech. My LHS has a "Factory Autherized Lionel Service Technician" but he got that title in the early 90's and never returned for any follow up training. I'm not exactly willing to let him open up some $2000+ loco when his creditials are basically as good as an "average capable owner". I would gladdly take the class if Lionel offered it but maybe this is only offered to authorized service centers?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

You are putting too much value on Lionel’s training program. They were aimed at folks with little or no electronics backgrounds. If you could use a multimeter and paid attention you could pass the test.
On the other hand many have degrees in electronics and computer science. If need be, new boards can be reverse engineered. Lionel could help a lot if they would just release documents describing the new boards rather than making one of us do that.
I was repairing trains for many years before taking any Lionel classes and I am in no way unique among those fixing trains today.

Pete


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm not factory authorized in anything, but I repair stuff better than most factory authorized techs .


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

An amusing thread. I’ve been sending my Lionel out-of-warranty repairs up to authorized Lionel Service Station repair tech, Jim Sandman in Ogden, Utah, just 35 miles away. On several repairs over the years, he’s had the items back to me within a week, perfectly repaired.

My newest engine is a 2012 Lionel Legacy GP30, which has been trouble-free. I don’t buy new Lionel and have never done a BTO, due to Lionel’s on-going quality control issues over the past several years. It works for me. 😉


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

3railbnsf said:


> I guess what I am saying John is how are you renewing your certification with Lionel as a repair tech. My LHS has a "Factory Autherized Lionel Service Technician" but he got that title in the early 90's and never returned for any follow up training. I'm not exactly willing to let him open up some $2000+ loco when his creditials are basically as good as an "average capable owner". I would gladdly take the class if Lionel offered it but maybe this is only offered to authorized service centers?


I don't expect any future training from Lionel as far as my certification is concerned. It's been many years since Lionel has trained anyone, I don't remember when the last training classes were held. As for repairing modern electronics, I actually don't think I'm behind the 8-ball on that score. Having spent a ton of time designing flight critical avionics for commercial and military aircraft, I think I'm pretty well equipped to deal with model train electronics. 

It's not additional training I need, what I need is the basic service information on the modern locomotives and boards. Simple stuff like board pin-out diagrams and locomotive wiring diagrams and I'm all set for the electronic end. FWIW, many people have already trusted me with their $2,000 locomotives, and I expect many more will. Although I still do quite a lot of board level repairs, the whole industry has been moving to non-repairable boards. When you look at the modern boards in the Lionel or MTH locomotives, there are less and less repairs possible on them. I know of very few train techs that are equipped to deal with a lot of the surface mount technology that is currently in use. As parts shrink, the equipment to service the boards becomes more specialized, and way more expensive! My equipment for board repairs stops at my hot air rework tool, the next step up the ladder is getting way too expensive!

Incidentally, I also develop electronics specifically for model train upgrades...


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Very well-stated, John. Those newer boards are another reason why I stay away from the newer Lionel locomotives.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yellowstone Special said:


> Very well-stated, John. Those newer boards are another reason why I stay away from the newer Lionel locomotives.


Well, you have to stay away with anything that has electronics if you want to avoid the non-repairable stuff.  I remember well when I could repair almost any board, first with thru-hole components, and even when we went to the early surface mount stuff. It was all large enough to deal with using common tools. If you've ever opened up a cell phone, you'll see most of the components are actually too small to identify without magnification! Most of the resistor and small caps there are 0.2mm x 0.4mm, think about trying to solder one of those in! 

Like I said, as in everything else, we've become a throw-away society, nothing is made to be repaired nowadays. Add to the fact that most products have a very limited lifespan, and you get lots of piles of trash!


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Seems that Lionel has deleted the listing of Authorized and Independent Service Stations. They just list their dealer network with that information.

They used to list my friend Bob Karas from Southampton NJ, who passed away a couple of years ago, along with others as Independent Authorized Service Stations. Those individuals attended the training sessions that Mike Regan held and were able to do Lionel warranty work.

Many of these individuals in fact performed the Lionel warranty and out of warranty work for those dealers listed as service stations. Nicholas Smith Trains was a good example of one of those dealers who used those individuals. NS and others in the area used Bob.

So apparently there are no longer any Independent individuals who are Authorized Service Stations just those dealers that are listed as Service Stations. 

An individual who has a relationship with a dealer, who is a Service Station, may be able to do Lionel service, but unless they attended the training sessions they were not authorized to do independent warranty work nor are they Authorized Lionel Service Stations.

In fact a number of those dealers who were Service Stations decided to sponsor an individual rather than sending one of their employees to the training session. 

A notable exception to the training rule is Alex M, who posts extensively elsewhere. He petitioned Mike Regan to become an Independent Service Station and Mike agreed that with his extensive experience with Lionel electronics that he should become one. I think another factor was there were no other individuals in the area where he lives. There may be others.

The thing that I don’t understand with the new policy is they established an extensive network of individuals able to do warranty work because Lionel did not have the man power. So, what is the difference now. I know a number of dealers who are service stations were willing to do warranty work but only for their own customers It will be interesting to see how it all works out.


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

The thing people and Lionel are NOT talking about. The wait time for in house service has been an ongoing complaint. Will they bring in new techs? Probably not, as that would increase their costs. So, I guess if you can wait 6 months for a new dishwasher, you can wait that long or longer to get a repaired unit back 

MTH goes away, Lionel prices take a huge jump, warranty service goes to all in house with no mention of what will be done to improve turn around. Isn't a lack of competition just wonderful?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

TJSmith said:


> So apparently there are no longer any Independent individuals who are Authorized Service Stations just those dealers that are listed as Service Stations.


And exactly where did you come up with this "fact"? It's news to me, and Lionel has not communicated with me to tell me I'm no longer an Authorized Service Station.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Bob Karas, who I mentioned passed away, was an Independent Lionel Service Station and was listed as same on Lionels website. There were several others that I am aware of including Alex M, don’t know his last name, and Joe Mania also like Bob from NJ.

When you clicked on the “Service Station Locator’ their names along with others were there along with their contact information. They were identified as Independent Service Stations meaning they could accept and do Lionel Warranty Service independent of a dealer or hobby shop. Now when you click on the locator what comes up is a listing of the Lionel Dealer network which also identifies those dealers as service stations.

In order to become an Independent Service Station you needed to be sponsored by a dealer and attend the training school and pass a test. Not every Dealer sent someone to the training deciding to sponsor someone instead. Those individuals who did go were responsible for their own expenses hence one of the reasons dealers went the sponsoring route.

There are no longer any Independent Service Stations listed on Lionels locator. If you or anyone else can find them please post a screen shot. 

Independent service stations were required to accept warranty work regardless of where the product was purchased as long as they could provide a receipt for an Authorized Lionel Dealer.

There are still Service Stations just no longer any Independent ones listed.

Again as I stated in my original post and responded to by another poster why break up a nice network to take the warranty work in house. They only paid the independents $35 to do the work and the provided parts. The only other incentive was they could purchase parts at a 50% discount.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Existing Service Stations will remain that if they are listed by Lionel or not. They will have the option to opt out if listed or not. If they choose to not opt out they still get parts at a discount. Doesn’t make sense as a business model to be unable to have a train repaired once its out of warranty.
Besides if the goal is to increase profits all they have to do is raise the price of parts like they are doing now. Radio boards used to list at 40 bucks, 20 bucks to dealers. Now they are 75 bucks, or 37.50 to dealers.
Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, I can't see any reason Lionel would change things, and I've heard nothing about it. As you say Pete, they can tinker with the prices all they want with the stroke of a pen.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

According to Joe Mania, an Independent Lionel Service Station, the program is dead in February 2022. Actual Service Stations based at their Dealer Network are not affected. They just can no longer offer warranty service.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

TJ, Joe needs to reread the notice sent out to all registered Service Stations and Dealers. It states that REGISTERED Service Stations will continue to be offered parts at a discount and they will keep them on a list unless they decide to leave the system. Maybe Joe has heard something different since but I have yet to see that announcement. I one received was dated the 13th.

Pete


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## jimsandman333 (Dec 22, 2021)

TJSmith said:


> Bob Karas, who I mentioned passed away, was an Independent Lionel Service Station and was listed as same on Lionels website. There were several others that I am aware of including Alex M, don’t know his last name, and Joe Mania also like Bob from NJ.
> 
> When you clicked on the “Service Station Locator’ their names along with others were there along with their contact information. They were identified as Independent Service Stations meaning they could accept and do Lionel Warranty Service independent of a dealer or hobby shop. Now when you click on the locator what comes up is a listing of the Lionel Dealer network which also identifies those dealers as service stations.
> 
> ...



Us Independent service stations where NEVER REQUIRED to accept warranty work, its just that we could accept warranty work. I declined some Lionel warranty work - such as when they first came out with the HO Polar Express. There was no parts listed, thus no way for myself to fix the defective part - made that customer send to Lionel. There has also been other rare instances as well.

Jim


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> TJ, Joe needs to reread the notice sent out to all registered Service Stations and Dealers. It states that REGISTERED Service Stations will continue to be offered parts at a discount and they will keep them on a list unless they decide to leave the system. Maybe Joe has heard something different since but I have yet to see that announcement. I one received was dated the 13th.
> 
> Pete


Pete, can you post a copy of what you got here? I haven't gotten anything yet.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Hennings has a copy. No confidential stuff here.

Pete


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Norton said:


> TJ, Joe needs to reread the notice sent out to all registered Service Stations and Dealers. It states that REGISTERED Service Stations will continue to be offered parts at a discount and they will keep them on a list unless they decide to leave the system. Maybe Joe has heard something different since but I have yet to see that announcement. I one received was dated the 13th.
> 
> Pete


Yes,

You are right. After I re-read the message he did say that they could continue to do out of warranty or other repairs and purchase parts at a discount.

However without a listing on Lionels website how would anyone find these former Independent Service Stations. The only Dealer service stations are listed.

Joe did say that he haas not done any repairs on new stuff for over six months due to lack of parts.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

He is right about parts for new releases are not listed other than electronic boards and those are usually not listed until after the warranty period. Typically you have to call Lionel during that period to get those parts.
As for not being listed as a service station I understood that they will send out an email requesting you confirm you want to remain listed or not and even if you request not to be listed they will still recognize you as a service station unless you tell them you no longer want to do service.
Thats my understanding but we know things change for no apparent reason.

Pete


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Mixed Freight said:


> Just curious, and I wonder, would they be willing to let the average capable owner remove defective part and send in for a replacement part, as opposed to sending in the whole blasted unit?


Nope. I asked this very question about my new Legacy USRA Pacific I got a few weeks ago that had a bad smoke fan. I had to send it back to NC after I had it all of a day. Hopefully Fedex is delivering it back to me tomorrow.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Incidentally, I also develop electronics specifically for model train upgrades...


I'll vouch for John and his electronic upgrades. I purchased a Lionel signal buffer from him and it has worked great. Cured my signal issue.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

This parts issues has been an ongoing problem. Bob used to complain that even if he called Lionel, although most orders were over the internet, he had a hard time getting parts. I remember being in his workshop and there were numerous engines from a number of shops waiting for parts so he could repair them. Some in warranty and some out of warranty.

Many times he had to give his customers the bad news that parts are not and will not be available for recent production especially some of the least expensive engines. These owners basically have nothing more than an expensive door stop.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've had an easier time getting Lionel parts than MTH parts.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I’m not sure what Lionel will call the newly listed repair centers. If they attended and passed (hic) the test they got listed as “Independent Service Centers” capable of doing warranty work if they wanted to.

Now what are they, “Service Center‘s ” or just factory authorized, I’ll contact them tomorrow to find out who is factory authorized and where I can find their listed contact information.


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