# Sticky  Is It Time For A New MTF Graphic?



## gunrunnerjohn

Recent discussions indicate many people would like to consider a new graphic for the banner of the forum. The question is, who is in favor of changing it, keeping it, or just don't care? The poll will run for 30 days and we'll see where we are at that time.

If we decide we'd like to change it, the next challenge is coming up with a quality graphic with the following characteristics.

*JPG image 750 x 125 pixels*


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## Spence

We need to definitely change it. It's older than me.


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## T-Man

A new banner would add a nice touch.


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## cole226

Yes, time for a change.


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## Big Ed

Thanks John for starting the poll.










My choice. 
The good old CNJ.
Nice and weathered too.:thumbsup:

But one of his 4014 would look nice too.

Like tworail mentioned, a rotating picture of a few different ones would be nice if that could be done.

But that will come later if enough vote to change. 
Thank :smokin:


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## ogaugeguy

We do need to update and freshen up this site.


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## Fire21

I think the real questions are: What should we change it to? How do we decide that question (majority vote?) How willingly will the losers accept the decision?

After the birthday brouhaha, I just don't know!


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> I think the real questions are: What should we change it to? How do we decide that question (majority vote?) How willingly will the losers accept the decision?
> 
> After the birthday brouhaha, I just don't know!


As John said, the real question here is should we change it.
The rest comes later. 

That is what the poll is for, yes/ no/ or don't care. :smokin:


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## traction fan

*Yes change it.*

John;

I think it's time for a baner change. While we're on the subject of changing things on the forum, how about updating the printed descriptions attached to the scale sections. The N-scale section still says it includes discussion of "Gram Farish" trains! Really, they went out of business years ago. I don't think "Minitrix" or "Life-Like" are particularly representative of current N-scale either. Kato is a major N-scale brand that is conspicuously absent. Things have advanced just a wee bit in N-scale since the 1970's! 

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## mesenteria

I wouldn't mind a change, although it's a great image.

I would recommend an ever-changing image from a set of arguably 'superior' proto and model images that their authors would give permission to use. That is, from a pool of available images, whether 20 or 2000, they should perhaps appear once per visit, or change every 10 seconds on a marquee as happens at other hobby sites.


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## Old_Hobo

C.N. deserves equal time on this Canadian owned site....


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## CTValleyRR

Personally, I don't notice it. I like it the way it is, because without really seeing it, I know I'm on the correct website.


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## Big Ed

CTValleyRR said:


> Personally, I don't notice it. I like it the way it is, because without really seeing it, I know I'm on the correct website.



HA ha ha


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## gunrunnerjohn

Old_Hobo said:


> C.N. deserves equal time on this Canadian owned site....


They've been represented for years, time for a change.


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## bigdodgetrain

maybe each thread from the main page can have a different train.

that would create 36 different train pictures.

just a thought.

lets explore every possibility.

but definitely change the main picture.

I would like to see the 4014 bigboy a model or the real one.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I believe we discussed the rotating graphic previously and it was decided that would be too complicated to get done.


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## Old_Hobo

gunrunnerjohn said:


> They've been represented for years, time for a change.


Uh, no, that is a CP switcher now, not CN....


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## Dennis461

The poll is inaccurate.

30 votes.
275 views
The "I don't care" group is in the overwhelming silent majority!


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## Spence

Dennis461 said:


> The poll is inaccurate.
> 
> 30 votes.
> 275 views
> The "I don't care" group is in the overwhelming silent majority!


That isn't necessarily true. A lot of those views are probably visitors who cannot vote.


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## Big Ed

Dennis461 said:


> The poll is inaccurate.
> 
> 30 votes.
> 275 views
> The "I don't care" group is in the overwhelming silent majority!


Inaccurate?> !

292 views now, don't you know that after some vote they check back to see how the poll is going?> !
Therefor the view counts goes up.> !

Silent majority?> ! 
Look like they are making a statement when they voted?> ! 
Plus some, even you, voted there but added a comment here so how is that silent? !

You think all the extra views are I don't cares?> ?........! > !


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## gunrunnerjohn

The silent majority doesn't have a voice in the poll, just like any other vote. If you don't care enough to vote, you live with whatever is voted in. 

Ed is right about views, every time you view the thread, the views go up. So, you come back to check replies, and it's another view.



Old_Hobo said:


> Uh, no, that is a CP switcher now, not CN....


CP, CN, what's the difference? They all foreign railroads.


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## Severn

I like idea of a rotating graphic. How about this variation. Let folks submit a proposed new graphic from time to time. Perhaps in a secret vote by the heads of state or some other means, select a winner for that time period... The winner gets you know whatever they want out of that... and the graphic rotates.


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## Dennis461

Big Ed said:


> Inaccurate?> !
> 
> 292 views now, don't you know that after some vote they check back to see how the poll is going?> !
> Therefor the view counts goes up.> !
> 
> Silent majority?> !
> Look like they are making a statement when they voted?> !
> Plus some, even you, voted there but added a comment here so how is that silent? !
> 
> You think all the extra views are I don't cares?> ?........! > !


OOps my math was off. (pun intended.)
I forgot to count the "Members: 21,838"


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## Big Ed

Dennis461 said:


> OOps my math was off. (pun intended.)
> I forgot to count the "Members: 21,838"



Still off 

That total has many, many who either quit running trains or stopped coming to the site.
I would guess around 5000 just came for one question and when they got their answer never came back.
That total goes back to the start of the site, more then 10 years ago.
Read through the members list and see the posts counts, a lot have none or just a few. Then pooof disappeared.

By the way, the way I see it the I don't care votes will tally in with the I want a change votes. 

If you don't care you are agreeing to a change. 
Because you don't care. :smokin:

That is a nice picture.


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## IronManStark

I would not mind seeing a new banner. However if we keep the old that it ok too! 
I guess I am in the I don’t care side, sooo.... change it is lol !!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Panther

Why not have a Semi annual poll, where anyone can post a suggested Header photo. The group votes and that becomes the new photo for 6 months, or a year whatever.

Dan


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## Old_Hobo

gunrunnerjohn said:


> CP, CN, what's the difference? They all foreign railroads.


With that logic, you're posting on this foreign forum as well.....so leave if you must......:laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn

With my hand on the throttle, they're both foreign railroads.


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## Old_Hobo

......both of which own thousands of miles of trackage in the United States.....:laugh:


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## Big Ed

Old_Hobo said:


> ......both of which own thousands of miles of trackage in the United States.....:laugh:


Quit your crying already..................:cheeky4:


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## Big Ed

BUMP.

A few more days till this poll will close. :smokin:


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## bigdodgetrain

so what ever happened to this??


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## gunrunnerjohn

bigdodgetrain said:


> so what ever happened to this??


As you can see, not much.


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## bigdodgetrain

why not?
I expected an answer like, working on it, can't be done, owners don't want change.

not the obvious.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You're free to take the lead on the project.

*Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!*


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## Big Ed

Now we need some impute on the picture to replace the old one.
Everyone submit your photo. ( if you want to) :smokin:
Remember the size limit.

My replacement photo, :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn

Sorry Ed, I'm holding out for steam.


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## Fire21

How about a picture of both steam and diesel? Then all we have to decide is which ones! hwell:


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## bigdodgetrain

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You're free to take the lead on the project.
> 
> *Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!*


I asked to be a moderator while you were gone and was turned down.

anyway I vote for a picture of the bigboy


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> How about a picture of both steam and diesel? Then all we have to decide is which ones! hwell:



Well post one. :dunno:


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## Big Ed

bigdodgetrain said:


> I asked to be a moderator while you were gone and was turned down.
> 
> anyway I vote for a picture of the bigboy



Well post one. :dunno:


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Sorry Ed, I'm holding out for steam.



Well post one. :dunno:


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## Old_Hobo

Looks like most people don't care.......hwell:


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## gunrunnerjohn

To be perfectly honest, trying to come up with a graphic that everyone will agree on was an exercise in futility the last time, so I personally have no burning desire to spent time trying the exercise again. I'll be glad to get it posted if someone comes up with a nice graphic that we can agree on, or at least a majority can agree on.


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## Tom_C

Well. There could be a rotating image with different scenes. OK, I'll shut up.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Apparently, a rotating image is not that easy to get working in vB software, we discussed that before.


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## wvgca

okay, if it's steam, then fine ..
what type of steam though ?? geared steam, small steam [0-6-0 or something], or large steam, like the big boy currently enjoying some popularity ??


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## Tom_C

No animated gif, either?


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## bigdodgetrain

this one is mine.


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## Big Ed

Sh"oo"T........close the thread, all of this was just wasted time!

No one wants to add their choice, we have been thru all of this BS years ago! :smilie_daumenneg:

At least Hobo will be happy.


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## Fire21

Everyone seems to have their favorite railroad name and logo. From the interest generated in the unveiling of the rebuilt 4014, I wonder if we all could agree that 4014 would be a good representative of this forum? But I think it should be a picture of a model of the Big Boy, since we are a model forum.

I do love that photo of her pulling the passenger cars, though!!


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## Big Ed

Thanks bigdodgetrain, you restored my faith a little.

If shrunk down we would have to cut off a little of something I think. Maybe part of the locomotive and back of the train?
This is a hair crooked but I shrunk it down some real quick. And I think this is too large.











But something will be wrong with it anyway, same as years ago.:smokin:


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> Everyone seems to have their favorite railroad name and logo. From the interest generated in the unveiling of the rebuilt 4014, I wonder if we all could agree that 4014 would be a good representative of this forum? But I think it should be a picture of a model of the Big Boy, since we are a model forum.
> 
> I do love that photo of her pulling the passenger cars, though!!


Fine with me, but like I said something will be wrong with it.

bigdodgetrain.........is this your personal picture? Or did you find it on the internet??


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## Tom_C

I don't have a scenic layout so can't offer any pic, but I do think is should be of model trains... if that pic from bigdodgetrain is a model then it's impressive!


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## wvgca

how about something like this one .. it's in brass, so it's easily a model ..it's off pinterest, and i have no idea of copyrights ..


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## Fire21

Personally, I prefer it in "natural" black. :laugh:


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## Old_Hobo

Big Ed said:


> Sh"oo"T........close the thread, all of this was just wasted time!
> 
> No one wants to add their choice, we have been thru all of this BS years ago! :smilie_daumenneg:
> 
> At least Hobo will be happy.


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## bigdodgetrain

it is not a model but the real thing.


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## Big Ed

bigdodgetrain said:


> it is not a model but the real thing.



I will ask again,


bigdodgetrain.........is this your personal picture? Or did you find it on the internet??


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## bigdodgetrain

Big Ed said:


> I will ask again,
> 
> 
> bigdodgetrain.........is this your personal picture? Or did you find it on the internet??


mine.
and so what if this is a model train forum.
models are based on the real thing!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Who is the "they"? We need to be specific as to the source if we were to consider using anything that's not a personal picture, the copyright wolves are out in force everywhere.


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## SDIV Tim

Aren’t we the Model Train Forum and should our photo be about Model Trains?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gunrunnerjohn

Maybe I could work this in. If only the background were a little better, I like the picture.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

Nice take from the Expo.
https://www.facebook.com/intermount...LEntEpjUlDEC2XqroonmD2M06K3Lj4ZQa_AfM&__xts__[0]=68.ARCLKEnAw_Ad2XCdvvEAVisInoicDdZqFH0cenu4UwxOjTdT_6CJbaIwokWYERPhoeh3pg7YyqIjyXq-0mMsYqSVFv6Byc7u3BVq8vnLlJP97Ewq7f089ngDGTUE-o6PLyYpkpBVXrdjBSTCN3NysZJBl1MMB1ERrPLAB2QfaRIXk8F1sWRgwwfDsxZ3osqtj_IaOPk_bk0rbyh6NH1aRj45uxt88KmYb7EeQ7nvFaNA1wDzx_vB9eG0SxlG1c5i6ePmUtkWTQ3U8sQYHMQqsM5cWxebIZwK6hiAnxMouYVr_GofcdIrfh5FYZVtmANniw


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## bigdodgetrain

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Who is the "they"? We need to be specific as to the source if we were to consider using anything that's not a personal picture, the copyright wolves are out in force everywhere.


fixed it.


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## Chaostrain

bigdodgetrain said:


> .
> models are based on the real thing!


Not always.


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## Big Ed

bigdodgetrain said:


> mine.
> and so what if this is a model train forum.
> models are based on the real thing!



Well now it is yours after you changed it.


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Maybe I could work this in. If only the background were a little better, I like the picture.
> 
> View attachment 520740


And it needs some smoke coming out of the stack. 
I think a model of a big boy locomotive would be better.

Or some nice prewar trains? Post war?

It does not matter as it seems that no one wants to submit anything anyway. :smokin:


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## Lehigh74

I haven't looked at this thread in a while. Maybe no one has submitted any suggestions because the thread is asking *IF* we should change it.

Why not start a new thread with an appropriate title asking people to submit their own photo as candidates for the new graphic. Set a time limit or number of submissions limit when entries will be closed.

Then start another thread to select which photo is selected. Selection could be made using a single poll or by elimination rounds (like our friend Emile did last March).

I could run with it if you want John or maybe someone who voted to change the graphic could pick up the ball.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Big Ed said:


> And it needs some smoke coming out of the stack.


Yep, I stopped it on the bridge to take a picture.


> I think a model of a big boy locomotive would be better.


That would be cool, I'll give you that.


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## Bwells

So what is the verdict? Looks like 58% are ready for a change.


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## Old_Hobo

Well, 58 members are, out of those who voted......

The other 22,042 members either don't want to, or don't care......not bothering to vote is a vote for don't care....:

That makes it 0.126 % of the membership want a new graphic....

But I guess poor voter turnout has done worse things......


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## Fire21

In a democratic "democracy", it's not the majority, but the majority of those who voted.


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## Old_Hobo

I guess that's why the rest are called "the silent majority".....


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## ErnestHouse

"Non-votes" do not count as "Don't care". They are whatever the majority voted. In this case it is Yes, it's time for a new graphic. I think a graphic of a model train in an expertly crafted layout would be better than a real train ... given the name of the forum.


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## Bwells

John, how about changing the banner to whatever fits the size. Is it a big job to do or just a click and drag? I’m sure you have something that will suffice.


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## highvoltage

Old_Hobo said:


> ...The other 22,042 members either don't want to, or don't care...


Or haven't been online in a while.


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## ErnestHouse

Banners a tricky as they take such a small slice of the photo. If you want a nice one, consider it a graphic design/photographer job. You want a quality photo from the right perspective and distance. This is a quick hack of GRJ's photo. It's not what you want but you can see there really wasn't enough width in the photo so that it could be scaled down for more of the loco to be featured.


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## Bwells

The one Big Ed posted in post 5 looks good, a little dirty maybe but colorful. I’m partial to steam but I’ll take anything that will fit.


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## wvgca

it's too bad that it's not easy to run a rotating graphic, that way could please most anyone , other forums do have it though, have to look at what they run for board software .. must -apparantly- be different ??


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## Severn

i was trying to find a photo with multiple scales & kinds & countries but failed.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The VS folks would have to do any mods for a rotating graphic, they have the keys to that castle.


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## Bwells

How about a non rotating one?


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## ErnestHouse

Personally I despise pages and websites with jumping and flashing stuff. Annoying. But if you are going to pursue ....there are various was to "rotate" images. Some involve coding in the webpage. An animated GIF should not require coding and may be an easy customization in the site ADMIN pages. 

To do it "correctly", the forum title should be in the same position on each graphic and not jump around but here's a hacked up animated GIF you could try before investing in the graphical editing. PM me if you need some help.


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## Severn

I like the "middle one" actually. that is the non-steam, non-cp rail one. that'd be a pretty nice change. keep it for a few weeks and try something new again.


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## Lee Willis

ErnestHouse said:


> Personally I despise pages and websites with jumping and flashing stuff. Annoying. .


Me too.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, that ain't happening here! If we did have a rotating graphic, it would be changed at a minimum by hours or days.


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## Fire21

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, that ain't happening here! If we did have a rotating graphic, it would be changed at a minimum by hours or days.


That would be my vote too.

But in reality, I'm familiar enough with the site that I don't look at the graphic anymore. I just go to "New Posts" and start reading.


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> That would be my vote too.
> 
> But in reality, I'm familiar enough with the site that I don't look at the graphic anymore. I just go to "New Posts" and start reading.


Well, you voted I don't care.
So you get no vote.


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## Old_Hobo

All members get a vote......


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## Big Ed

Old_Hobo said:


> All members get a vote......


You don't get one either, you already stated that you like the one we have.


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## Bwells

It doesn’t matter as it isn’t going to happen. We’ll wait another 3 years and do it again.


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## Big Ed

Bwells said:


> It doesn’t matter as it isn’t going to happen. We’ll wait another 3 years and do it again.


Yep, everything brought up, gets blown down. :smokin:


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## 65446

Yeah. I think it's time..It's been there long as I have been a member. It's kind of dull.
Right off the bat I'm thinking Golden Spike ceremony at Promontory Point, Utah. 
Another could be the famous pic of the SF F7 Warbonnet (is it ?); it's nose, dangling truck, and cab having busted through the concrete wall at Los Angeles Union Station with sidewalk and street below, circa 1949-ish..color////ized :sly:


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## Fire21

Gosh Old Hobo, you and I don't get to vote...Big Ed says so. Wonder who made him chairman of the moderators? :laugh:


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> Gosh Old Hobo, you and I don't get to vote...Big Ed says so. Wonder who made him chairman of the moderators? :laugh:



You already voted.
You,
I Really Don't Care!

Hobo,
No, I Like The Current Graphic!

Or did you forget?
Go back and look. :smokin:


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## Fire21

Big Ed said:


> You already voted.
> You,
> I Really Don't Care!
> 
> Hobo,
> No, I Like The Current Graphic!
> 
> Or did you forget?
> Go back and look. :smokin:


:cheeky4: :laugh: :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> :cheeky4: :laugh: :smilie_daumenpos:


Mail me a C note and I will set you right up. 
Hobo has to send 5 C notes. :smokin:


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## Fire21

Allow me to restate my position: I don't care if the graphic changes. However, *IF* it goes to a rotating picture, I prefer (not vote) to see it slowly rotating, as GRJ suggested. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Big Ed

Fire21 said:


> Allow me to restate my position: I don't care if the graphic changes. However, *IF* it goes to a rotating picture, I prefer (not vote) to see it slowly rotating, as GRJ suggested. :smilie_daumenpos:


But you said>>>>>>>copy and paste,
But in reality, I'm familiar enough with the site that I don't look at the graphic anymore. I just go to "New Posts" and start reading. 




https://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=2495194&postcount=88


I have been reading all your comments in this poll thread.
It seems like you really should have voted different.:dunno:


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## gunrunnerjohn

And you guys wonder why we don't get a new graphic.


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## Old_Hobo

Big Ed said:


> You already voted.
> You,
> I Really Don't Care!
> 
> Hobo,
> No, I Like The Current Graphic!
> 
> Or did you forget?
> Go back and look. :smokin:


All members get a vote, if they chose to do so....which we already did/had.....

I have noticed that no one has voted for a long time now....those results are about 2 months old now.....so obviously, nobody (except the 28 who voted for change) really cares enough, one way or the other.....:laugh:

To me, people who don't vote obviously don't care......


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## Old_Hobo

gunrunnerjohn said:


> And you guys wonder why we don't get a new graphic.


Don't blame us.....it's Big Ed's fault! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Tom_C

Just change the pic, who cares? Or, who doesn't care? So what? Change it, the forum is here for the input, not the pics!


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## Big Ed

Tom_C said:


> Just change the pic, who cares? Or, who doesn't care? So what? Change it, the forum is here for the input, not the pics!



Not true we all like pictures. 
:ttiwwop:


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## Fire21

Maybe if the picture changed I'd look at it now and then. But remember!...I don't care!  

How ya doin' Ed? I've enjoyed this back and forth banter. 

:hah: you & me


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## Lee Willis

Thar Bard wrote about this many, many years ago.

Much Ado About Nothing


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## Old_Hobo

Really....hwell:


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## Big Ed

Old_Hobo said:


> All members get a vote, if they chose to do so....which we already did/had.....
> 
> I have noticed that no one has voted for a long time now....those results are about 2 months old now.....so obviously, nobody (except the 28 who voted for change) really cares enough, one way or the other.....:laugh:
> 
> To me, people who don't vote obviously don't care......


You noticed no one has voted for a long time now? :goofball:
DUH........the poll has been closed for a long time now.
No one can vote if the poll is closed.>>>>>>> :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:<<<<<<<<
:smokin:


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## ErnestHouse

This thread is a waste of energy. 

Change the graphic according to the laws of plurality voting or lock the thread saying "Without the funds to pay for a web developer to implement a rotating banner, the current banner will remain." 

Make a decision.


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## Big Ed

ErnestHouse said:


> This thread is a waste of energy.
> 
> Change the graphic according to the laws of plurality voting or lock the thread saying "Without the funds to pay for a web developer to implement a rotating banner, the current banner will remain."
> 
> Make a decision.


Waste of energy? ha ha ha
I guess your right, typing takes a lot of energy. 

Or forget the rotating banner and just replace the one that has outlived it's life. :smokin:


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## Dennis461

Move the thread to the HO forum, we need to get the count up!


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## wvgca

I didn't mean that the ONLY banner that would be acceptable would be a rotating banner, I just mentioned that IMO it would be preferable, if the ability to do it on this software exists ..
Failing that, 58% of those who voted agreed that it was time for a change ..let the mods choose another banner, and good enough ..


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## Big Ed

wvgca said:


> I didn't mean that the ONLY banner that would be acceptable would be a rotating banner, I just mentioned that IMO it would be preferable, if the ability to do it on this software exists ..
> Failing that, 58% of those who voted agreed that it was time for a change ..let the mods choose another banner, and good enough ..


Seems to be only 1 mod/admin left active.
All the rest are MIA's.


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## Old_Hobo

Even the mods don't care......:laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn

Old_Hobo said:


> Even the mods don't care......:laugh:


Correct, I don't come to the forum to view the banner.


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## T-Man

Banner? Like the Hulk?

The hard part is getting one made.


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## Stumpy

I guess this can be un-pinned and locked.


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## Big Ed

For now I guess, better then the old stale banner.


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## Old_Hobo

Big Ed said:


> For now I guess, better then the old stale banner.


Oh, I hope it's not just "for now"....I like the change, good old OO scale with British/European cars and engine......


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## MacDaddy55

To correct my Illustrious friend from the Great State of Canada...OOOPPPSS country of Canada....those are not Cars but Wagons.....as so I've noticed from some members from the European Continent!!🤣🤣🤣 Yep, I've become THAT Guy!!😀


Old_Hobo said:


> Oh, I hope it's not just "for now"....I like the change, good old OO scale with British/European cars and engine......


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## Old_Hobo

MacDaddy55 said:


> To correct my Illustrious friend from the Great State of Canada...OOOPPPSS country of Canada....those are not Cars but Wagons.....as so I've noticed from some members from the European Continent!!🤣🤣🤣 Yep, I've become THAT Guy!!😀


So correct everything then.....it's a locomtive, not an engine.......

I used the word car because most northern American train modellers are familiar with car and not wagon.....wouldn't want to cause confusion, you know....


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## gunrunnerjohn

If they're going to use that logo, at least they could not chop off the top and bottom!


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## Fire21

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If they're going to use that logo, at least they could not chop off the top and bottom!


Agree!


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## Old_Hobo

You just have to figure out why you come to this forum.....for the banner.....or the banter?

When you figure that out, you will know what's more important to you.....


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## CTValleyRR

And I agree with Old Hobo. It's been years since I even noticed the banner. I could give a rat's behind what picture is there. I spend my time reading and posting.


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## Big Ed

Old_Hobo said:


> So correct everything then.....it's a locomtive, not an engine.......
> 
> I used the word car because most northern American train modellers are familiar with car and not wagon.....wouldn't want to cause confusion, you know....


A car is what you drive down the highway or on a road.🥴
Rolling stock is correct.
But I could give a rat's a s s what you call it !


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## Old_Hobo

Well you must care....you took the time to post about it.....


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## CTValleyRR

My debate professor would say "Non sequitur" -- or in English, "your conclusion does not follow the ideas previously presented."


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## DennyM

Change is good.


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## MichaelE

Maybe a Br.01 or Br.44 this time.


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## highvoltage

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If they're going to use that logo, at least they could not chop off the top and bottom!


It's that way with VerticalScope forums. I'm on three of their forums, two car forums and this one. All three have chopped banners.


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