# DCC Layout Problems



## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Hello I am fairly new to model railroading especially with DCC. So I have around a 5x12 table that I just have a large oval on. ( I am also a guy that likes to build model fairground scenes using the faller kits so thats whats in the middle). Anyways the table was designed for the fairground scene and then I later decided to add a train that goes around the layout and possibly a small yard off to the side. 

So this is basically what my layout consists of. 

I said above that the table is a 5x12 so I would estimate there is around 40 feet of track because it goes around the outer edge and the yard mentioned above is not built basically because I cannot get the oval to work well. Originally I tried to use flex track for the curves but had problems with getting the radius right because I already had constraints with the fairground scene already being set so I used sectional track for the curves to make sure I had a close to perfect radius. (By the way all track is atlas code 83). After laying all the track I immediately realized that I should have designed and laid out the track before I did anything else on the table. But this is not a permanent layout so I figured this would be my test run at making a DCC system. 

So that is basically everything you need to know about the configuration and track. Now for supplying the voltage to the track. 

Since I didn't really know how far I would get into the model railroading field I decided to go with a Digitrax Zephyr command control system. (That seemed like a good choice for someone that is just testing the waters). So I read a lot about people using bus wires and stuff but i really assumed that was for huge tracks such as over 100' of track but I still wanted a little practice with wiring feeder wires to a track so if I wanted to go bigger I would have experience. I am an HVAC technician so I have plenty of thermostat wire so I decided that I would have 3 feeder points and thought that would be plenty for this track. I soldered the thermostat wires directly to the track at those points and ran all of them straight back to the Digitrax Zephyr. (I feel like this could be the source of my problems but I am curious to see what you guys think). So I ran the thermostat wires directly to the Zephyr with no bus wires. After this it seemed like I was still having some voltage problems so I went ahead and soldered all the track joiners together as well. So the track should be completely connected without any continuity problems except for the one turnout I have on the layout for the possible expansion for a yard. 

Now for the problem i am having. 

So I currently only have some of old DC trains that I had when I was younger that should be early 2000s models but the instructions for the Zephyr said they should work fine. Well when running the DC locomotive around the track there is one part of the track that the train skips on and sometimes completely stops on the track.(This is on flex track I used for straightaways) Now I have a feeder wire at no more than maybe an inch away from this spot and there is no breaks in the rails between the feeder wire and the dead spot. Also around the entire layout the DC train does not do well at all if you try to slow it down very much and at full speed it does not seem to go very fast at all. I know if the DC train does not work well then there probably is not much need to get a fancy DCC train until I get my layout working properly. 

So I would really appreciate it if somebody could give me some tips or tell me where I went wrong. I am very curious to know if using thermostat wires and running all of them back to the Zephyr was a bad idea and I should really use a 14 gauge bus wire and connect terminal joiners that you can get online to the track? Is it possible that the track at the dead spot is just bad? Like I said this is my first attempt at a custom layout and I don't have much experience with DCC system besides the research I did online.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Thermostat wire is 18 gauge and with only about 8' runs (controller in the center) it should work just fine. You might try 16 gauge wire the next time. You could try cleaning the track and also the wheels of the loco where they pick up power. Old engines then to have hard grease in them so that's another place to consider doing a little over haul. Look carefully at how the wiper pickups are and are they clean and making good contact. you could also set the loco upside down and see if it works by using test leads to the wheels ( better if you have some bachrus test stand rollers, but test leads will do.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm inclined to suspect the locomotive, not the track. My son is running an 8x12 double oval on a single pair of AWG22 feeders. Give your track a good cleaning, because DCC is much more sensitive to dirty track than DC is. But beyond that, with all you've done, as long as you don't have a polarity issue with one of your sets of feeders (i.e. you kept the right and left rail connections consistent), I don't think electricity is the problem.

I know Digitrax is supposed to be able to run a lone DC loco, but I've heard conflicting reports of how well it actually does. Can you borrow (or purchase ) a true DCC loco to test your track with?

Track itself doesn't go bad, although it could be out of gauge. If you have an NMRA standards gauge, check the track gauge in the bad spot. If you don't have one, well, I'd recommend you get one and test it. If the track is out of gauge, the wheels may be binding.

Be patient -- this may take some time to sort out. The best method is to methodically eliminate possible causes, one at a time, without guessing.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

One simple test is to take a metal object and short the trackage at different spots.The Zephyr's built-in breaker should trip instantly.If it fails to trip or has even a slight hesitation to do so,you have a resistance issue.

Tracks are known to be resistive wich increases proportionally to length,thus the use of feeders.Modellers usually install feeders every four to six feet of track,using 20-22 ga. wire for them.Then the feeders are connected to a buss wire (16 ga. or bigger) that run the length of the layout.

Reading your post,my feeling is that your wiring is too small for the distance it has to reach.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Lemonhawk has very good suggestions.
Gunk on wheels can cause a lot of
electrical pickup problems. After cleaning
the wheels go around the track with a sink
cleaning pad and alcohol.

While your DCC controller claims to run DC locos
they just won't do as well as would a loco with
the decoder in it.

However, there still may be problems with your
track. Sometimes the joiners do not make
good electrical conductitivity.

Use your multimeter set to AC (for DCC track) and
measure the voltage where the controller is connected
to the track. Note the reading. Then use the probes
on each section of track around the layout. When you
notice a change in voltage you'll find a joiner that
needs tweaking.

Don


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Digitrax allows the use of a DC locomotive using address "00". It works. I have done it. But the problem most encounter, at least with the older and cruder, or worn, drives is that they squeal and groan. Loudly!!! It sounds like an animal in pain. The information on the digital signal imparted to the rails via DCC makes the motor run in a pulsed mode, but so rapidly cycled that it makes the entire locomotive act like a guitar sound box. The decoders parse out the information and send DC current to the can motors. This works smoothly and well. The AC square wave is pitched, and that pitch is evident by making the non-decoder locomotive vibrate in concert. That's what the DC drive experiences...cycled and square wave current that has not been interpreted and metered by a decoder.

So, while it 'can' be done, most learn after a couple of stabs at it that maybe it shouldn't be done. Get a decoder and use that to run the loco instead.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Thanks for the replies guys I will start checking some of the problems you guys have listed. What would you guys recommend cleaning the track with?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

atrbigred95 said:


> Thanks for the replies guys I will start checking some of the problems you guys have listed. What would you guys recommend cleaning the track with?


Use an ordinary sink scrub pad soaked with 
Alcohol. Don't use rubbing alcohol tho.

To easily clean the loco wheels, place a paper towel
with alcohol over the track. Run the front wheels of
the loco onto the alcohol spot. Hold the loco by hand
and run up the speed. The spinning wheels in the
alcohol will make 'em nice a shiny. Do the same with
the rear Wheels.

Don


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. Not related to your problem but:
Be warned when running a DC locomotive on a DCC setup. When it sits still you will hear a hum. Do not let it sit still for a long time. The motor will get burned out. That hum is power going to the motor and it is rapidly changing polarity. Essentially it is similiar to putting it on a DC track and holding it in place while you turn on the power.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DavefromMD said:


> I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet. Not related to your problem but:
> Be warned when running a DC locomotive on a DCC setup. When it sits still you will hear a hum. Do not let it sit still for a long time. The motor will get burned out. That hum is power going to the motor and it is rapidly changing polarity. Essentially it is similiar to putting it on a DC track and holding it in place while you turn on the power.


Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but you're right.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

DonR said:


> Use an ordinary sink scrub pad soaked with
> Alcohol. Don't use rubbing alcohol tho.
> 
> To easily clean the loco wheels, place a paper towel
> ...


Rubbing alcohol as distinct from isopropyl alcohol. While isopropyl alcohol is the main ingredient in rubbing alcohol, rubbing alcohol often has oils and fragrances that can leave unwanted residue on the tracks / wheels.

Pure (or 91%) isopropyl alcohol works fine.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Bill's CSX said:


> If CTValleyRR reads this article and is actually using AWG #22 track feeder wires,
> he should note that AWG #22 track feeder wires can only handle up to 0.92 Amps.
> These track feeder wires are not functioning correctly for his requirements.


You really have trouble with this concept, don't you? Your last sentence there is totally incorrect. 

I will grant that I have not actually checked the gauge of the wires in question, but am going solely off what was marked on the package.

That said, my track feeders (my son's actually) allow us to do exactly what we want to do: operate 3-4 non-sound locos at the same time, at moderate speeds. Are we overloading the wires and risking a fire? Perhaps, but in a couple hundred hours of operation there has been no issue. Not even any noticeable overheating. Ergo, they are functioning correctly for my requirements.

So the engineering and techno-babble is wonderful, but it fails to take observed reality into account. And that's the trouble with book learning versus experience. When we started building the layout, I asked my son whether he wanted to do a bus and feeders. He said no. I asked if he was sure, and he said yes. So we did it his way, although I made sure the wires were easily accessed, in case we did have trouble. Now we're four years down the road, with never a hiccup.

So, you can provide all the theory you want, and it might help if someone is trying to plan a layout and determine what size wire to use, but to say that my wiring doesn't meet my needs, in clear contradiction to observed facts, is patently ridiculous.

More to the point, pretty much everyone here (even you) agrees that the OP's issue is most likely to be the locomotive or track gauge, not electrical connectivity, so what is the purpose of your post except to muddy the waters and cause confusion and delay.


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## higgsbosonman (Nov 17, 2014)

Bill, is the 0.92 amps from this page?

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

It seems a bit conservative.

Assuming a wire run of around 10 feet, the use of copper wire, and 22 gauge, and 12 volts DC, that means a 0.32 volt drop over that wire. Volts times Amps equals watts, so that means that 10 foot wire is absorbing 0.32 volts at 1 amp so 0.32 watts. ten feet of copper wire will have no problem dissipating that kind of heat, even if it is wrapped in the plastic insulation.

In a DCC system, it's AC. if we want to get into power factors and stuff, that's for an electrical engineer and overkill in my opinion. Either way, even if the power dissipation in the wire was 25% more, its still not very much. I'll just assume a power factor of 1. The biggest problem is voltage drop, and with the DCC system pumping out 20v AC (approx) max, power usage will stay about the same (that is the advantage of increasing the voltage; with the same amount of wattage the amps go down and that makes power transmission more efficient). At 20v AC and 0.6 amps, our voltage drop is only 0.19 volts, or less than 1%. The heat dissipated is around 0.2 x 0.6 = 0.12 watts.

I used this online calculator: http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.htm

So a 10 foot run in DC is 0.3 watts and in AC is a third of that. I assume the calculator is only one way, so the ground coming back doubles the run. That means 0.6 watts or 0.2 watts and double the voltage drop across double the wire. 

I would say that the problem is probably not in the wiring, although its still worth looking into it. Maybe use a voltmeter and measure the voltage applied around the layout? see if there are any drops caused by poor rail joiners? This doesn't take into account mechanical joints, which can have high resistances if not put together right. Is the DC engine good? I know my DC athearn engines ran like poop on DCC.

I'm building a railroad right now using 22 awg wire. I thought it shouldn't be much of a problem. If my math is totally wrong, then I'd love to know since I haven't started wiring yet and now is the time to change.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Not disputing that you can read or quote technical specs.

But you obviously can't evaluate their relevance to real-life situations. I have given you a situation in which your warnings and all your specs don't seem to apply. Am I miraculously lucky, or are the specs overly conservative? Or a set of generic guidelines which have to be evaluated in the real world application. As Higgsbosunman stated.

Instead of engaging in a valuable discussion, which might actually be of use to someone, all you can do is thump your chest and tell everyone how right you are. You are an old dog, and although you can fake your ID, you obviously can't learn a new trick.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bill is gone, he's learned to use a proxy server to hide his identity, but he can't learn to control his impulse to copy-n-paste without understanding any of the content.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Hey guys so I went and bought a DCC locomotive. The one I had been looking at was a Bachman Baldwin 4-6-0 with sound. So of course I have some problems. 

So I put the train on the track and punched in 3 to get to the loco and it automatically had sound all the bells and whistles worked except it won't move. If I put the control in forward and turn the speed up I can hear it start to hum but won't do anything. I would think it was not getting power but with it humming and all the sounds working flawlessly I don't know what is going on. 

I went online and tried to do the reset thing and even changed the decoder number to match the train number and it still just does the sounds and won't move. If you guys could help me out it would be awesome. lol This is getting really aggravating.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Is the brake released?F11 should be off.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Brakeman Jake said:


> Is the brake released?F11 should be off.


The book for the loco does not mention anything about a break as function 11. Anyways I press the Func+10 button on the zephyr then hit 1 which I would assume is function 11 and do not get any response and the train still does the same thing.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have had bachmanns do that but a reset always worked to get it going. Make sure you have acquired the engine and set cv8 to 08. If that don't work, take it back. bummer.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

mopac said:


> I have had bachmanns do that but a reset always worked to get it going. Make sure you have acquired the engine and set cv8 to 08. If that don't work, take it back. bummer.


Yea I have already put the train on a program track and did the CV8 thing to 8 twice with still the same results.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

I actually did the CV8 thing and programmed it to 8 and I know it reset the loco because now you have to acquire name 3 to get the sounds to work again. If the train is a bust I must really have some bad luck. lol :dunno:


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

One last question. Does anyone know how to get to the decoder and how to just get to the inside of the loco? I read on another forum that a poor connection from the wires from the tinder to the engine can cause sound but no movement. I unplugged the little harness and plugged it back in but still no improvement I just figured if I could get in there a little deeper I might get some better results or see a problem.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

If your Bachmann loco has a Sound Value decoder made by Soundtraxx,it may have the brake feature.However it doesn't seem to be your problem in this case.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Brakeman Jake said:


> If your Bachmann loco has a Sound Value decoder made by Soundtraxx,it may have the brake feature.However it doesn't seem to be your problem in this case.


It does have the DCC value sound decoder on it at least thats what the box says.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

There are only two possibilities in this scenario where you get sound, including the ones you activate using your throttle (bell, whistle, coupler crash, hisses, coal shovel, etc.), but no motion control:

The tether plug is not properly seated. This is a frequent complaint from BLI steam users....if they don't firmly seat the plug from the tender into the receptacle on the back of the steamer, you often get sound, but no amount of throttle activity; or

Your decoder is defective. Return the item with permission, previously secured, from the importer.

Sorry...it's just those two possibilities*.

* Assuming a wire isn't broken, or a solder is a cold one, or a few wipers aren't making good contact on the backs of metal drivers.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Take it back. If you bought it at a local hobby shop maybe they can test it. Do not be taking a brand new loco apart. You might break something and then them not take it back. TAKE IT BACK and get another. Then problem solved. Don't aggrevate yourself.
Why would you hesitate on taking it back. Is there something you need to tell us?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Mopac, he probably doesn't want to take it back because he's frustrated and just wants his trains to run.

I was half kidding when i suggested the OP get a new loco, because a known good one is better for troubleshooting. Had i known he was going to do it (and i don't blame him -- I'll take any excuse to buy a new loco  ), i would have recommended a smaller diesel.

Another possibility is that the tie rods on one or both sides are binding. I have had this happen on a Bachmann 2-6-2 Prairie. Anyway, a new loco that won't run should be returned. Monkeying around with it yourself risks voiding the warrantee, even if you know what you are doing.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Bill is gone, he's learned to use a proxy server to hide his identity, but he can't learn to control his impulse to copy-n-paste without understanding any of the content.


That Bill sounds a bit familiar.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

mesenteria, man are you right about those BLI steamers and their plugs. On advice from BLI, I had to send a brand new BLI steamer in for repairs. Took 6 weeks and they called me and told me the problem was I just was not pushing the plug all the way in. I thought I had but it took more pressure to get plug all the way in. I didn't want to break the plug but that's what it took. Engine runs like a champ now.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

It was deja-vu all over again!

And i was just thinking that it was about time for Ed to reappear in a new incarnation! About once every 10-14 days is the frequency. I would welcome his contributions to a good give and take discussion, but he is just hell bent on demonstrating how smart and knowledgeable he is, and in saving us from our own ignorance and error (in his perception, at least).


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Hey guys so the reason I really would have rather not sent it back is because I bought it from Walthers online. (Unfortunately I live in a small town with with no nice hobby shop anywhere close by) I really wanted to get the track going and if I had to send it back, with the holiday coming up, I'm sure I probably wont get a new one back until about 3 weeks. 

Anyways to the one guy that said you weren't trying to push me to get a new train I actually had been looking at this train for a long time and I am not really going for the new school layout I'm going for more a throwback theme and sense I am based in North Carolina there is a lot of history with the old baldwin 4-6-0 steam engines. So don't worry you didn't push me to get one I already had planned on getting one you just gave me the extra incentive to go ahead and get it. lol 

So I have already contacted Walthers and they have already given me the information I need to send it back (and may I mention so far they have had great customer service) so hopefully in a few weeks I will be on here to let you guys know how it went but for now thanks to all you guys that have commented and helped me try to get my layout working. :appl::smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I didn't think i had pushed you into a new loco purchase, but a diesel does have fewer things that can go wrong.

I think you might be surprised at how quickly things get turned around. Walthers and the shipping companies will all work every day except the actual holidays, and shiiping companies are in high gear to handle the expected volume. I have heard some people complain about Walthers customer service, but i have ordered tons of stuff over the years and never had anything but the best from them.

Good luck! We'll be waiting to hear what happens.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Sorry to hear you have to send it back. That's a bummer. I have been there before.
That's what I figured would need to be done. If a reset doesn't fix it, there is a problem.
Let us know when you get it back and running. I have a little 0-4-0, maybe its a 2-4-0
Bachmann with sound and I love it. It will all work out. I thought you bought yours locally. Now I see why you didn't want to return it. And you are probably out the shipping
cost back to them.


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## atrbigred95 (Dec 15, 2016)

Hey guys so I received the new locomotive from Walthers today and got around to trying it out. 

Good News. It worked perfect except for a few places where the the front wheels wanted to hop off the track but thats a fix that shouldn't take much. 

I just wanted to say thank you to guys for helping me out with this because this has definitely been an interesting experience. I now know that DC trains just are not made for DCC layouts because this train as far as power goes works flawless while the DC train skips all over the layout. Also thats no just one DC train thats all 4 of the DC trains I tried so I figured I would add this just in case you guys wanted to use this for future reference for helping other people. 

So thanks guys for all the help if it won't for you guys I probably would have got extremely frustrated and just ripping all the track up and trying to restart. I am sure I will be back to ask more questions once I get to expanding the layout. :smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos::appl::appl:


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Glad you got it sorted, these issues can be very frustrating. 

Can imagine why you only have problems with the DC locos, it shouldn't be the case, very odd. The front wheels skipping off the track is going to be track related, possibly in relation to the radius, but as you say that should be an easy fix.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Now it's time to think about which of the DC trains
you want to convert to DCC first. The typical DCC
decoder can be found for less than 20.00. Do one
now, another in a month or so and before long
you've got a fleet of DCC trains.

The conversion can be a good 'chore' for a cold
rainy day. Unless you break something, it'll take
you about 2 hours or so typically.

Don


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