# turnouts?



## John Olson (Jan 14, 2016)

I am re-entering the hobby after a L-O-N-G layoff and have been busy researching the new features and products that have appeared since I tore down my last layout (e.g. affordable DCC, static grass, and laser cut kit parts). This is perhaps a Chevy vs. Ford question, but it appears to me that there is a large preference among today's modelers for Peco turnouts over Shinohara and/or other brands. Is this based on quality, price, or some other factor that is not apparent to me. Thanks for helping helping out...........John


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

John

You've got it right. Chevy vs Ford.

I'm a Peco Insulfrog fan, and find them so well assembled that
I have no turnout caused derails. I have 20 of them
in use.

There are many Shinohara fans on the forum and they
seem totally satisfied.

I feel certain that you would be pleased with either brand.
The main comparison is with Atlas. They are inferior, in
my opinion, to both Peco and Shinohara. Atlas flex
track, on the other hand is as good as you can buy.

There are factors to consider:

Pecos come as Insulfrog or Electrofrog.

The Insulfrog version has plastic frogs and
are power routing; Power to a spur would go off
when points are set straight. Most newer
locomotives with all wheel power pickup will
not pause or stop on Insulfrogs. Older 4 wheel
or locos with only 4 wheel power pickup do
have problems.

The Electofrog metal frog switches phase (polarity)
so you must use an insulated joiner in both frog
rails to avoid short circuits.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

John, welcome back!

We have been discussing essentially the same thing over in the HO Scale area. I have reproduced the relevant part of my comments here :

"So many people like to take this down to a Peco vs. Atlas debate. Those are simply the two brands you're most likely to find on the shelf at your LHS. It's really much broader than that. 

I would direct you this way: 
EZ-Track / PowerLoc: sharp curves and blunt points. Avoid if possible.
Atlas Snap Switch: Serviceable but prone to problems. Cheapest and easiest to find.
Atlas Custom Line: A step up in quality, but still only fair to middling.
Peco: Top Quality, both powered and insulated frogs, centering spring.
Walthers / Shinohara: Top Quality, powered frogs getting hard to find, no centering spring.
MicroEngineering: Top Quality, metal frogs, no centering spring.

Any of the last 3 suppliers' turnouts will perform well, depending on your own preference for features, price, track configuration, etc. Use of other turnouts may save money, but you will probably just invest time later in dealing with issues.

Also, none of them are directly interchangeable -- each manufacture uses a slightly different geometry (usually, the length of the tail and legs), thus some extra fitting may be involved to retrofit existing turnouts."

Hope that helps.


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## John Olson (Jan 14, 2016)

Thanks for your help in sorting out turnout preferences. Shinohara and Peco "Insulfrog" turnouts are both said to be DCC friendly because the frog is electrically isolated. What is the reason and/or advantage for using live frogs anywhere in a DCC layout? I have some 1980-1990's brass locos that I will need to be repowered and updated. In the meantime I will probably buy a modern DCC equipped GP 7 or SW 1 for interim use, which I presume will run OK through isolated frog turnouts. Thanks............John


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

John

'DCC friendly' turnouts is a promotional claim. It's total nonsense.
Any turnout that you can buy will be just as good from a DCC standpoint
as any other. If it works on a DC layout, it'll work on a DCC layout.

What usually the turnout people are saying is that metal frogs that
switch polarity offer better electrical contacts for locos, especially
the short 4 wheel switchers or those with only 4 wheel power
pickup. If you intend to run locos of that nature you would
want ELECTROFROG turnouts, otherwise you can use the
easier to install Insulfrogs. I say easier, since you must use
insulated joiners on Electrofrog frog rails.

I have over 20 Peco Insulfrog turnouts and 9 Diesel DCC
locomotives. I never have a pause or stall on a turnout,
even tho the frogs are plastic and are not powered.

Any contemporary loco, such as the ones you
mention, are usually is all wheel powered. They
will be perfectly happy slowly crawling through
your Insulfrog turnouts with not a blink or a stutter.

Don


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

DCC friendly has two principal qualities, and they can be show-stoppers if they don't work well. Those two show stoppers are: firstly, the problem with long frogs that are dead electrically, and that can be a problem with the tinier/older teakettle steamers such as docksiders; and, secondly frogs that are dead, but their frog rails are set so close together where they abut the insulated frog that metal tires from rolling stock, which tend to be quite a bit wider in scale than the prototype (about three times!) will bridge over to the other rail and cause a short, because those two rails are out of phase.

Generally, there are few problems of that kind, especially with the modern locomotives, even the tinier ones. They have very good pickup. However, you are likely to have one engine, or one car, maybe several, where the metal tires briefly touch both frog rail ends where they get closest, and your system will instantly shut down to protect decoders. It's a royal pain.

You have two options, not including resorting to electrified frogs: sever one of the two frog rails about 3/8" further out from the frog than the insulator is between the rails (thus rendering that bit dead electrically and incapable of being bridged so as to cause that dreaded short), or do what many do...use clear nail polish to coat one of the two rails for about the same distance away from that insulator. Note that the first option, severing one of the two frog rails a bit further out, has the net effect of lengthening your already dead frog. That, in itself, can be a showstopper for one of your tiny engines. In that case, really you should be using electrofrogs turnouts.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Here is more info than you probably need:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm


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## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

The only problem I'm having with the Atlas turnouts is the frogs stick up above the level of the rails. Once I sand or grind em down a bit they have given me good service. I'd like to upgrade on all subsequent purchases for sure but I'll take Atlas if that's all I can get or if I find em at a sale. They just need a little work and they are ok.


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## John Olson (Jan 14, 2016)

Thanks for all the helpful replies. This forum is a great "support group" for an old-timer like me. I think I have my current issues resolved, although many more will likely pop up as my layout progresses.........John


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Chip said:


> The only problem I'm having with the Atlas turnouts is the frogs stick up above the level of the rails. Once I sand or grind em down a bit they have given me good service.


That is interesting. Some of my Atlas turnouts had the opposite problem. The frog-rail transition was flat, but there was a very slight dip in the center of the frog. When the first pick-up wheel runs into the dip, sometimes the following wheels are lifted off of the rail momentarily causing a loss of power. Apparently, there are some lax quality control issues at Atlas.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*[DCC] "Friendly Switch Tracks"..*



DonR said:


> 'DCC friendly' turnouts is a promotional claim. It's total nonsense.
> 
> Any turnout that you can buy will be just as good from a DCC standpoint as any other..
> If it works on a DC layout, it'll work on a DCC layout..
> ...


Sorry, but I have to disagree in part..
Especially when you are using the Peco "InsulFrog" switch tracks.._:thumbsup:_

The Peco "ElectroFrog", "Shinohara" and some other switch tracks, only get track power 
from the (x2) moving track point rails..
For improved switch track performance, a (Frog = Power Routed) system is required..









With minor modifications, the "InsulFrog" switch tracks will have (Frog = Power Routed) built in system..
The Peco "InsulFrog" switch tracks are excellent ..

==============================

Go to the following "Thread" --> For complete detailed information

Threads in Forum : Technical Model Train Forum
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=74393
......


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ed

I very much agree. I have 20 or so Peco Insulfrog turnouts.
They are power routing so if the modeller wants either connected track 
to always have power he'll want to add drops from each frog rail.

However, I am unconvinced that a turnout can be 'DCC friendly' or
not. Apparently the only factor they cite for this claim is a
powered frog. That is desirable if running a small 4 wheel power
pickup loco. But this would be a problem for DC as well as DCC
locos. Otherwise, all wheel power pickup locos have no
problem whatever with Insulfrog turnouts. 

I did encounter the frog 'shorting' situation you showed. Wider than
normal wheel treads can indeed span the tiny plastic insulator
and cause a spark or even short. There are easy solutions:
Carefully file ONE side of the frog so a wheel cannot touch both
rails. Or simply put a tiny dab of clear fingernail polish on
one. That's what I did and it continues to work years later.

The main reason to buy Peco whether Insulfrog or Electrofrog
is that you no longer will have turnout caused derails. They
are a quality product.

Don


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Don the so called DCC friendly Walthers turnouts are insulated frogs and can be used with no special wiring DCC or DC.

Their older turnouts were powered frogs and would require insulators on the two frog rails. 
I don't think they make powered frogs anymore. 

Walthers turnouts are not power routing, both tracks have power at all times.
I have a half a dozen dead end spurs that only get power from the turnout and both tracks have power all the time. 
There are jumpers under the turnout that supply power to the all the rails and the little tabs on the point rails only align the point rails to the stock rail heights. 
I don't think they transmit power at all. Just put a turnout into a neutral position and the points had power with the tabs not touching any rails.

As far as it goes I have 20+ Walthers turnouts and I never have derailments because of the turnout. Operator error yes.
Also have 10 Picos and love them, do like the spring loaded points.

Magic


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*[DCC] "Friendly Switch Tracks"..*

[DonR]..Thanks for your assistance for others.._:smilie_daumenpos:_

In (x2) different "Threads" I had to inform individuals to use "Insulated" track connectors at the (x2) "Frog" tracks..
There seems to be a lot of confusion with switch tracks..
I have asked for assistance since I use Shinohara switch tracks, Tortoise switch machines, with power routed "Frogs"..
I myself was confused that [DCC] "Freindly" switch track is now manufactured..

I do like what Peco did with the "Insul-Frog" switch track..
Adding the Option #1 and Option #2 jumper wires will insure that the (x2) "Point Rails" and track to the "Frog" is always "Powered"..









Special Notes: (#1)
I also noticed that Peco "Insul-Frog" switch tracks have (x2) "Different Versions"..
- Old Version = Long Plastic Frog
- New Version = All Metal

Special Notes: (#2)
It looks like when Peco "Insul-Frog" went from the "Old Version" to the "New Version", track shortages could occur..
That is why there are minor now (Optional) modifications required to prevent track shortages..











Magic said:


> Don the so called DCC friendly Walthers turnouts are insulated frogs and can be used with no special wiring DCC or DC..


Thanks for bringing this subject up..
The "Only" Walthers Shinohara Track that is [DCC] "Friendly" only comes in --> Track Code 83..
Walthers Shinohara switch tracks.. 
https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?ssrc=search&category=track











Magic said:


> As far as it goes I have 20+ Walthers turnouts and I never have derailments because of the turnout. Operator error yes.
> Also have 10 Picos and love them, do like the spring loaded points..


[Magic]..Thanks for your assistance for others.._:smilie_daumenpos:_

Question: (#1)
What type (x10) of Peco switch tracks are you using, "InsulFrog" or "ElectroFrog" ??

Question: (#2) 
You are using (x20+) Walthers Shinohara and (x10+) Peco switch tracks..
If you had to "Rebuild" your layout, what switch tracks would you use ??
......


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Why I Hate Some "Threads"..*

There are (x2) different "Threads" discussing the "Same" subject matter
- But-
In (x2) different directions..

Keep Your Eyes Posted Onto These (x2) "Threads"..

turnouts?
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=71810

Electrical problem
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=74393
......


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

As a matter of fact I'm rebuilding the Magic RR right now.

My old layout was all Walthers code 83 turnouts and track.
I'm still using the turnouts and they are all insulated frogs (DCC friendly)
These are all in my yards and spurs. 
I did have two powered frog turnouts but they are gone now had to put insulators on the two frog rails.

Don't care much for Pico code 83 turnouts mixed with Atlas or Walthers flex track, bad connection for the rail joiners, 
The Picos have a much smaller lower rail flange and the Atlas joiners just do not fit, must solder the joint right away. 
Not just my option but Model Railroader magazine as well, current addition.

I like to be able to test run things for a long time before I start soldering joints. 
If you're using Pico or Mirco Engineering track no problem just can't use Atlas rail joiners.

Decided to go with code 100 for the new mains and am using Pico Insulfrog turnouts and Atlas flex track. Work great together, no rail joiner problems here.

The smallest diesels I run are GE 70 ton switchers. Only have one steamer a 4-6-2 Pacific so no problems with stalling on turnouts, hence no special wiring needed.

Both Pico and Walters are fine turnouts and I see no real difference in them.
Very happy with both of them.

Magic


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