# DCC starter kit but upgradable



## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

Ok so first is first.. I did read, and read a LOT... just want to confirm a few things that I was thinking...

I am going to go DCC definitely. I have about 11 trains already that are DC. One says 2007 on it so possibly dcc ready? cant figure out how to open it.. HAH...

anyway.. I spent a ton of time reading and see all the costs, etc...
and as they all say.. its about preference and how many trains, etc...

so the house I was looking at got an offer, well above what I am going to give, thus I am moving on and staying in my home. With that I have to keep it small so a 4x8 dual O so like {O} ….

I want to run 2 trains as there will be 2 tracks. May do a 3rd elevated but will see... 
since DCC can tie a few trains together, I may even take my two Santa Fe and put one in front/back in tandem...

still with that, I read you can consider each train a half amp.

My current thoughts and choice seems simple...

nce power cab
Pro:

up to 4 trains at once as its 2a
Everything included in starter kit to run it
Expandable with SB5 adding 5a for more trains???

Con:

I am not sure about the throttle
Not wireless - I think


so I maybe just fine with this unit. How do all of you feel about the throttle? I prefer a slider or knob that you can move easier and not that little scroll wheel...

may not need the SB5 but nice to know that I can add if I get to a need for a larger environment.

Wifi - I read the ProCab and Power Pro units are Wifi but read someone had issues with people loosing control of changes in Wifi so Wifi isn't all that great. At home for home networking I am a wired guy. some things are wifi but I prefer wired.. so I wont miss it..

does my analasys seem right?

my goal is 2 simple loops... 
use an Atlas 305 with motor turntable and 10 side tracks that eventually will have 10 dcc trains (11 but will use a Y when that time comes)


now I also want to ask this. Read up a bit on DCC Decoders. People say that some of the cheaper ones make a hum, some for sound don't sound good, etc...
But what if you have a train that you do not want sound. just be able to control and maybe lights if it has it...

I see ebay with DCC Decoders from $12-$40 then I see ones from $40-$80 with sound and other bells and whistles...

if you do not require sound and a ton of options... are the cheaper ones ok?
that should get us started...


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

mods can you move this to the DCC forum please...


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The motion/lights only decoders are fine. Sounds costs more. Half of my locomotives have sound, the other half don't. Those that do are ESU sound files or Henning Sound. Both sources are outstanding compared with videos of the actual locomotive's sound.

Buy a quality decoder. I don't have any experience with American brands so I can't recommend any. I'm using ESU and Zimo and one other brand who's name escapes now. It's installed in a TRIX Br.187 so it's probably something Märklin uses.

The Powercab scroll wheel may fail if too much pressure is applied. The decoder the wheel is attached to may also fail as mine has. I never liked that wheel much and I use the buttons to control speed. Can't say anything about the booster or wireless. Nowhere on my layout is farther away than the included cord will reach. The control panel is mounted about in the center of the layout fascia and it's a seven foot cord, so I have a 14' radius to move about in and the layout is only 11'x13'.

You can operate up to _six_ trains with the Powercab and I've done it. It's a lot to keep track of though and I do not have automatic block control, so I usually limit operation to three or four trains at a time. Mostly four. You are able to store up to six addresses in memory to scroll through (with a button) to select the locomotive for control. If you have more than six, you can also manually call up the locomotive by the address numbers.

I've never heard a decoder hum before. I guess ESU and Zimo don't. Locomotive motors hum though.

I like the throttle other than what I've mentioned. I do wish the case was made of aluminum instead of the cheap plastic they use. It seems sturdy enough though as long as you aren't going to drop it every session.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

MichaelE said:


> The motion/lights only decoders are fine. Sounds costs more. Half of my locomotives have sound, the other half don't. Those that do are ESU sound files or Henning Sound. Both sources are outstanding compared with videos of the actual locomotive's sound.
> 
> Buy a quality decoder. I don't have any experience with American brands so I can't recommend any. I'm using ESU and Zimo and one other brand who's name escapes now. It's installed in a TRIX Br.187 so it's probably something Märklin uses.
> 
> ...



thx for the reply. So you are agreeing with my assumptions about the scroll wheel...
so that got me thinking and im liking this thought.
for $50 you can get 
https://tonystrains.com/news/using-jmri-with-nce-power-cab-sb5-and-ph-power-pro/

and use an android tablet or cell phone and swipe for throttle. 

could integrate an android tablet or ipad into the control panel


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Another advantage of the PowerCab is that if you eventually build a larger layout and replace the starter kit with a full NCE system (or visit a friend who has a full system), the PowerCab throttle can be used as a regular throttle on the full NCE system.

And you can still use the hookup part that comes with the PowerCab to run an isolated test track on the workbench if needed. So you have both a standalone system as well as a throttle for the full system.

I don't think most other systems upgrade in quite the same way.

(I mean yes, in this scenario the upgrade is buying a new "full system" but your existing PowerCab throttle is still used as a regular throttle with the full system.)

Edit - I just saw the SB5 "Smart Booster" - that's an interesting upgrade path for the PowerCab, and can still be upgraded to a full PowerPro system and be used as a standard booster in the full system. I like NCE's upgrade path of being able to always reuse the original pieces in the full system.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Riggzie said:


> thx for the reply. So you are agreeing with my assumptions about the scroll wheel...
> so that got me thinking and im liking this thought.
> for $50 you can get
> https://tonystrains.com/news/using-jmri-with-nce-power-cab-sb5-and-ph-power-pro/
> ...


Yeah, using JMRI, Wifi connection and throttle app, you can use a phone or other mobile device as a throttle, but personally I prefer the throttle with physical buttons. Once you're used to the throttle and its layout you can operate with one hand not even looking at it. The operating buttons like the speed wheel and buttons, and reverse, etc. are all right where your thumb is when holding the throttle.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A 4 X 8 HO layout is going to seriously limit the
locos that you can run. 22" radius curves would
go right to the edge of the top, but you need that
for any of the new large diesels and most steamers.
I would suggest adding a foot to the width and 
thus be able to have suitable curves safely. Further,
a 2 track main would mean the inside track would
necessarily have tighter very limiting radii.

You might consider a single track main with 2 or
3 passing sidings. DCC makes it possible to run
train A clockwise while train B is going counter
clockwise. As you can imagine this offers all sorts
of operating fun.

Any of the currently available DCC systems would
provide sufficient power to run 3, 4 or more
non sound locos at the same time. At the low
speeds that look the best on a layout the per 
loco amp draw is closer to .2 or .3 amps, not .5
A DCC booster would not be needed unless you
are running several sound locos...sound does soak
up power.

You can depend on loco decoders from Both
Digitrax and NCE. The non sound versions run
around 20.00 or less. Most can pass 1/5 amps
for the loco motors. That makes them suitable
for older less efficient motors. Further, they 
replace free any defective decoder, even if you
accidentally damage it.

Adding DCC to a loco is a pleasant 2 or 3 hour chore.
Each decoder comes with clear instructions to
show you where each of the color coded wires
go. Most are about the size of a fat postage stamp
so they'll fit in most locos.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm with Don about the restrictions of what you can do in a 4x8 layout. Not really too many options there. You're definitely not going to have room for a turntable and roundhouse or a wye, so I'm guessing those are future expansions.

I'll also echo CV-ACR's sentiments about the advantages of physical buttons and knobs. Might not bother you, though. A tablet, in my opinion, is just too big to make a good throttle.

As far as decoders, it's not the price per se. There are plenty of perfectly good, inexpensive, non-sound decoders out there. Just stick with name brands: Digitrax, NCE and TCS are good. MRC are hit or miss. Bachmann, to be nice, stink. They buzz... objectionably loudly to my ears.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Sorry, but I can't get my head around all this..
You have a layout. It's DCC. You have an NCE system, PowerCab or larger (I have the PCab)..You have locos and cars..You turn power on.. You run your railroad.... 
All these other gadgets are a mystery.. I mean, why ?? It's all there on the NCE keypad and screen. No offense meant to those into all this, but I can't get why I'd want to hold a cellphone in my hand or have this I-pad mini interface doodah ..
I can see these components being used by a dispatcher in a large club.. But to run a home layout, sorry, I just don't get it...You have the throttle. You walk along either wireless or plugging in/out of fascia panels and run your trains.. 
What am I missing about the significance or necessity of all this other tech stuff just to move trains down the track ? M


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

telltale said:


> Sorry, but I can't get my head around all this..
> You have a layout. It's DCC. You have an NCE system, PowerCab or larger (I have the PCab)..You have locos and cars..You turn power on.. You run your railroad....
> All these other gadgets are a mystery.. I mean, why ?? It's all there on the NCE keypad and screen. No offense meant to those into all this, but I can't get why I'd want to hold a cellphone in my hand or have this I-pad mini interface doodah ..
> I can see these components being used by a dispatcher in a large club.. But to run a home layout, sorry, I just don't get it...You have the throttle. You walk along either wireless or plugging in/out of fascia panels and run your trains..
> What am I missing about the significance or necessity of all this other tech stuff just to move trains down the track ? M



its cool... lol.... 
why not.
dc works.. dcc is more complicated but why not?


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

DCC is actually less complicated than DC. No need for blocks on your trackage. Just connect the power to the track and you are set to run and control as many locomotives as the system will support.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

telltale said:


> What am I missing about the significance or necessity of all this other tech stuff just to move trains down the track ? M


There's absolutely no necessity - but it is an option and some people like being able to use the throttle app on a phone. Personally I prefer buttons because I can use them without looking.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

CTValleyRR said:


> A tablet, in my opinion, is just too big to make a good throttle.


Absolutely, that's just a no go on so many levels for me.

However a phone is actually a perfect size.... but I still prefer buttons for reasons noted above.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

You will want to "inventory" your current loco fleet to ascertain which are "dcc ready" (have a plug in which to connect decoder), and which aren't. Some may have 8-pin sockets, some may have 9-pin, 21-pin, etc. Others may have no socket at all -- for some of these, "the job" involved in getting them to dcc may not be worth it.

You'll want to decide whether you want sound or not.
Some folks live for this.
I found that (for me) sound is not that important -- but smooth loco control is (that's where the non-sound dcc really shines).

You'll want to decide on what kind of dcc control system you want.
Either a "pushbutton system" (such as NCE), or perhaps a wifi system such as the Roco z21 or the digikeijs controller (which works with the z21 app).

The wifi control systems can be run from a smartphone or tablet (iOS or Android).

Some folks want the pushbuttons.
Others prefer the "buttonless" interface offered by the wifi systems (I fall into this group).


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

Thanks all. Much for me to toy with.
I just ordered track to get something going. I know many are saying a 4x8 is not big enough but this layout is what i want...






and I will add a turntable. Albeit my current turntable is the Atlas 305 with motor udded. I tested it last night and wow is it noisy. Really really noisy and too noisy.. so stuff to work on for that too.

I was going to do a 6x9 for O and 4x8 off to another wall but I am thinking the O will take a back burner as it is just too big. This will allow me to use that space 6x9 for HO.

giving me a bit more to play with and more to do. will see as track isnt going to be here for at least another week. 

this gives me time to get all the xmas stuff put away, box up the O, cleanup the basement and start a table.

more to come...
thx..


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

You're going to have a lot of issues with that particular layout. I'm assuming the outer loop goes up and over the two inner loops? The grade shouldn't be too terrible if you put both the outer and inner loops on slopes (so the front of the layout where the loops join is actually at a middle height).

The double S-curves near the top-left are really going to be an issue. I would suggest using some flex track and simply smooth out the curves there (eliminate the S's and just create a gradual curve up to the turnouts).

Near the bottom-left it looks like there is a curved turnout that is then forced in the opposite direction to meet up to the next turnout. The easiest thing here would be to try and cut off the length of the curved turnout so that it more naturally matches the angle of the turnout it is supposed to join to. You might also move the curved turnout further back into the long curve so you have more room to massage the track into the connecting turnout. Again, flex track might save you here.

The yard looks like it could provide a lot of functionality, however it would work even better with a run-around. Here I would suggest taking that top spur that goes off by itself, and bringing it back into the top yard track with another turnout. The idea is that you could move a few cars onto the right-hand diagonal track, disconnect your loco and 'run-around' the cars on the left-hang diagonal, then grab the cars from the other end. This makes it easier to have a switcher in your yard moving the cars around and getting them stacked up for a mainline loco to come pick up.

I can't read what radius the inner loop curves are supposed to be -- hopefully they are 18" and not 15"? If you are running HO scale then you shouldn't go with less than 18", however if you are planning to build this as On30 then 15" curves could be appropriate for an old mining layout.

Honestly if you're not dead-set on using sectional track, most of this layout could be built with flex track which would give you greater freedom to smooth out some kinks and allow for easements in some of the curves. Plus with fewer track joints, it should be more reliable overall.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I like the track plan but those inside curves are too sharp for nearly any locomotive besides 0-4-0. That could be problematic since one of them is your yard lead.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Honestly if you're not dead-set on using sectional track, most of this layout could be built with flex track which would give you greater freedom to smooth out some kinks and allow for easements in some of the curves. Plus with fewer track joints, it should be more reliable overall.


nope.. i plan on using all flex track... i tried copying that into AnyRail but as you said, hard to read so I couldnt. Tried with flex track but its a tad hard to figure out in AnyRail.. so Ill wing it.

figure when the track comes in (only 5x 36")... I plan on just getting a loop setup and test each train out. See how they run as I have NEVER fired them up and got them over 15y ago...


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

MichaelE said:


> I like the track plan but those inside curves are too sharp for nearly any locomotive besides 0-4-0. That could be problematic since one of them is your yard lead.


This is the one thing I have yet to read up and learn. You say 0-4-0 and I have no clue what that means! hah... once the track comes in, I will try and copy that inner loop and see how things run. like I was mentioning.. i guess i could go 6' wide vs 4 which will give more room... and 9' long...vs 8..


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

5x9 makes a big difference over 4x8. You really don't want any 15" radius curves!


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I have digitrax on my layout and the WiFi set up for that was quite literally plug and play. You have a lot to chew on with what has been previously stated but maybe my 2 cents will be worth a little bit. My digitrax system is the empire builder set. I bought it for $200 at the train show a few months ago. I bought the pr4 and the lnwi to add onto it and I can use my telephone to run it and have jmri now. As far as decoders go I personally like the digitrax decoders since they’re smaller in length and width but I primarily run them in steam where height isn’t much of an issue due to them being in the tender. I prefer the digitrax throttle over the nce but once again personal opinion. I haven’t had any issues with it. I know the club I used to belong to was running primarily dc but had a track set up for dcc using a power cab and you couldn’t run mu with diesels that have sound because it would eat up too much power. Something to keep in mind. I think they were walthers gp40s? Anyway it’s neither here nor there. They’re both good systems but if you plan on running multiple sound locos you may want to think of a bigger system


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Riggzie said:


> nope.. i plan on using all flex track... i tried copying that into AnyRail but as you said, hard to read so I couldnt. Tried with flex track but its a tad hard to figure out in AnyRail.. so Ill wing it.
> 
> figure when the track comes in (only 5x 36")... I plan on just getting a loop setup and test each train out. See how they run as I have NEVER fired them up and got them over 15y ago...


You should be able to locate the part numbers in the Anyrail track library.

Flex track in Anyrail is extremely simple. Drop a piece on the layout. Right click on it. You can select straight or curved (or easement, but that's a little trickier) and identify the length you want (up to 36"), or how many degrees of arc at what radius for smooth curves. The make odd shapes, just connect the ends. Each end of the flextrack has a little plus sigh connected to it by a line. Change the shape of your piece by dragging those around (just experiment -- that's easier than me trying to explain it).

That layout design, though is a good indicator of one truism: you can draw just about anything, but whether a real train can run on it is a different question entirely. Unless you're running only short switchers and trolleys, forget that one. The curves are too tight, and the sidings / yard tracks are to short to put many (in some cases, ANY) cars on. While you might make a turntable physically fit, you wouldn't be able to use it because there isn't enough room for tracks leading off of it.

Now if you can expand it to 6x9 (10 or 11 would be better), you might make it work , although with that size you will probably have a reach issue into the middle.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

cv_acr said:


> There's absolutely no necessity - but it is an option and some people like being able to use the throttle app on a phone. Personally I prefer buttons because I can use them without looking.


Especially when backing or shunting cars in a yard, checking height clearances etc. You don't want to have to be looking down while maneuvering a train or locomotive.

You also can't have your finger 'on the button' waiting to use it on a phone or pad. 

Might be fine once the trains are rolling on the main, but I can't see using a surface with absolutely no tactile feel at all for delicate or required slow speed operations.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

I have two UT4s and a few iPhones used exclusively for wifi throttles using the withrottle app. I have absolutely no issues using either for precision operations in a yard or switching. I have my thumb resting on the screen and slide it up and down accordingly. The throttle bar is a couple inches tall so throttle response is precise and immediate. It’s just like scrolling a page on a website. You don’t need to lift your thumb up.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Looking at the plan you posted in #15 above...

The "inner curves" look to be very sharp (15" ??). This is going to limit your locomotive size and car lengths -- probably to 40' cars and 4-axle engines with relatively short frames.

6x9 (for HO) would change things and possibly give you more freedom with engines and cars due to broader curves (with a minimum of, say 18", or even 22").


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I did a quick layout to check, and yes those inner loops are definitely 15" radius. Not a good way to start, you'll be highly disappointed with the results.

Since the idea of a 5x9 was thrown out, I went ahead and worked up a layout for you based on your video, but with some extra ideas thrown in. This was done in xtrkcad, and you can use this link if you want to grab the file to work with it yourself. The smallest curve here has a 20.5" radius. The mainline is spaced at 2.5" apart and uses Peco medium turnouts for the crossovers. The yard has tracks spaced at 2.125" apart based on the usage of Microengineering yard ladder turnouts. Everything else is flex track. For the outer loop, given a clearance of 3" over the inner loops all of the grades are less than 1.6%. I also threw in an idea for the turntable you mentioned and added some easements to the outer loop. I also changed the crossover tracks at the bottom to avoid hard S-curves, so you should be able to get smooth operations forwards and backwards. Hope you like it.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

That's a nice "rework" by Shdwdrgn in post 26 above.

Keep in mind you would need access to the "back" of the layout (the crossovers at the top of the diagram)...


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I did a quick layout to check, and yes those inner loops are definitely 15" radius. Not a good way to start, you'll be highly disappointed with the results.
> 
> Since the idea of a 5x9 was thrown out, I went ahead and worked up a layout for you based on your video, but with some extra ideas thrown in. This was done in xtrkcad, and you can use this link if you want to grab the file to work with it yourself. The smallest curve here has a 20.5" radius. The mainline is spaced at 2.5" apart and uses Peco medium turnouts for the crossovers. The yard has tracks spaced at 2.125" apart based on the usage of Microengineering yard ladder turnouts. Everything else is flex track. For the outer loop, given a clearance of 3" over the inner loops all of the grades are less than 1.6%. I also threw in an idea for the turntable you mentioned and added some easements to the outer loop. I also changed the crossover tracks at the bottom to avoid hard S-curves, so you should be able to get smooth operations forwards and backwards. Hope you like it.



WOW THANKS!!!! love that!!!!!

fwiw.. 5x9 wasn't thrown out... 

just talked to the wife and threw out there that I am going to grab a section of the 3rd bedroom (our son moved out) and I am going to use a big chunk to do a square (could do an L but why... I get the reach point but im 47.. still can get up on the table.. hah.... thus the O gauge will go upstairs, freeing up the spot in the basement.

the basement spot is a 6x9 that was going to be used for the O giving me only a 4x8 on the other wall.. now I can open up a bit.

so you like that software over anyrail? I was going to buy anyrail but will have to check yours out now!!!!! :thumbsup:

could you take a 6x9 and see if that would get a better layout?


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

J.Albert1949 said:


> That's a nice "rework" by Shdwdrgn in post 26 above.
> 
> Keep in mind you would need access to the "back" of the layout (the crossovers at the top of the diagram)...


id do remote so I wouldn't have to manually flip them... at least that's what im thinking


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

CTValleyRR said:


> You should be able to locate the part numbers in the Anyrail track library.
> 
> Flex track in Anyrail is extremely simple. Drop a piece on the layout. Right click on it. You can select straight or curved (or easement, but that's a little trickier) and identify the length you want (up to 36"), or how many degrees of arc at what radius for smooth curves. The make odd shapes, just connect the ends. Each end of the flextrack has a little plus sigh connected to it by a line. Change the shape of your piece by dragging those around (just experiment -- that's easier than me trying to explain it).
> 
> ...


wow I didn't see that in right click. will have to check again. yes just dropping it and trying to curve it by hand is a PITA...


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

What I meant by "5x9 was thrown out" was that the idea was suggested rather than a 4x8. 

The reason you would want access to the back is because trains derail, and there's an even higher chance of it with all the turnouts back there. You'll notice I didn't extend the tunnels on the right to allow the overhead track to cross -- that's because you don't want turnouts inside a tunnel unless you can remove the side of the tunnel for access (again because of derailments and the finicky nature of turnouts). I was thinking it would give a good spot for a nice bridge just after the trains came out of the tunnels (I myself am partial to trestle bridges), I'll update the picture and build file to show how a bridge would fit there. Ideally this layout would be placed in the middle of a room with full walk-around access. It would allow some mountains on either side and towards the back, with a valley in the center for a small town or industrial area. It's still not large enough for 80' passenger cars but I think you could do 50' passengers and freight on here.

Xtrkcad is free, so it has *that* going for it. I've been working with it for several years so it doesn't take much for me to lay out an idea these days, but I will warn you that it's not exactly the most intuitive to work with. A lot of features require the combination of holding the shift key while left- or right-clicking. They do have a nice 'getting started' page on their wiki, I highly suggest working through that before getting started with the software. Having this layout to get you started will also be a big help as you can click on different tracks to see lengths and radius.

Expanding this layout to 5x10 would actually be better, as it would allow for a little lower grades and longer yard tracks, plus it would solve the problem at the back with the overhead track trying to cross the turnouts. Let me know if that would work for you, or what you actually have room for, and I'll see what I can do with it.

Also note there is quite a lot of space to work around the turntable. I added one extra track as a service area, but if you run steam you could have another track for an ash pit and cool-down, you could have a separate building as a workshop, or you could have two lines going to the turntable to process incoming and outgoing locos. In fact you don't even need to have a 'round' engine house. Before you actually start laying down track I suggest doing some research to figure out what you might want to model as there are a LOT of interesting possibilities. It also helps if you get a general idea of what time period you want to model.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

10x5 will be tough as im already on a wall where I would be putting this in-between crawl space door and under stairs kids toy storage area... 
but yea.. I think I could pull 10x5.... 
appreciate it!

gotta clean up this space and lay it out on the floor to show wife how much I will be eating up.. hah...

and im not planning on any scenery, tunnels, etc... at least not for now. I am just wanting to get it setup and play with my 13y old... 

wife will go crazy I guess.. as I do this here and then gonna do O in the 3rd bedroom.. hah...


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Well let me know when you've measured what size you actually want to work with, and keep it mind it doesn't have to be exactly 1-foot increments.  You probably don't want to increase it to 6' wide because it will make it difficult to reach across the center if/when you decide to start adding scenery. I was 13 when I had my last layout and I remember it being a stretch to reach to the center of the 4x8 that I had. I also don't think it will add anything useful to the layout.

I did have another idea to fix that back-right corner though... I could drop the outer loop a little, then it'll cross the inner loops further back from the turnouts even within the 5x9 space.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

at family party. wife overheard me. vetoed upstairs. ill let u know. lol


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

"Loose lips sink ships", or in this case trains.

Magic


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## SteamEngineDan (Dec 23, 2019)

*DCC Controllers*



DavefromMD said:


> DCC is actually less complicated than DC. No need for blocks on your trackage. Just connect the power to the track and you are set to run and control as many locomotives as the system will support.


What is the best controller to buy if a person wants to control multiple trains? Does the track style make a difference? I am in the beginning stages of putting together a 4 X 8 track layout.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

SteamEngineDan said:


> What is the best controller to buy if a person wants to control multiple trains? Does the track style make a difference? I am in the beginning stages of putting together a 4 X 8 track layout.


DCC is the easy way to control multiple trains at once. No additional wiring is required to do so.

Not sure what you mean by track style, but the DCC unit doesn't care what type of track you use or what it's made of.

For a 4x8, you don't need anything fancy, because the layout space will limit you more than a DCC unit will. For a small layout like that, I would look at an MRC Prodigy Explorer or Bachmann EZ Command. Both are limited function units that will offer you the ability to control multiple trains, but little else. The advantage to the MRC unit is that, if you do move up to a bigger layout, some of the components will still be useable with s full,-fledged system from MRC; with the Bachmann you'd have to buy a new unit.

For a full function unit, any of the MRC, Digitrax, NCE, or Rocco systems will be fine. Overkill for your small layout, though. The difference between these systems are in the "human engineering", in other words, how the user interacts with the unit. This is really a matter of personal preference as to which you prefer. There is no "best".


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## wiley2012 (Dec 8, 2012)

Yes, I got into DCC with Bachmann E-Z Command back in spring 2014 when I was building my previous 8x8 L-shape layout. I went for the package Bachmann used to make that includes a decoder-equipped locomotive with the control unit...








It's too bad they don't offer a package like this anymore, because this was a great way to upgrade to DCC if you already had track and rolling stock and everything, like I did; my layout was already built with the track laid in an analog/single-train mode, so I was able to easily hook up the E-Z Command unit to the existing layout!








Since I needed AC output to operate my remote turnouts and accessories and E-Z Command didn't have anything like that, I just pulled out an old TYCO power pack for that purpose.









Almost seven years and another new layout since then, I still use E-Z Command, though I also have it hooked up to the 5-amp power booster unit, especially since this is a large 11x8 L-shape layout and I usually have three trains on the layout, with normally two running at the same time (one long freight, one passenger, and one really short freight). 
The downside is, it's not an upgradable system. So maybe someday I'll move up to a more upscale, but less-complicated DCC system...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Except the the EZ Command isn't upgradeable. It's a good unit, but it doesn't meet the OP's criteria.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

my local hobby shop still sells the Bachmann E-Z Command...
he was demoing it for me.
was pretty slick.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

I use the ez-command to RUN my trains, but I just do a small layout. I program with a NCE powercab. You can run with the powercab, but it's easier for my situation with the ez-command.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I did a quick layout to check, and yes those inner loops are definitely 15" radius. Not a good way to start, you'll be highly disappointed with the results.
> 
> Since the idea of a 5x9 was thrown out, I went ahead and worked up a layout for you based on your video, but with some extra ideas thrown in. This was done in xtrkcad, and you can use this link if you want to grab the file to work with it yourself. The smallest curve here has a 20.5" radius. The mainline is spaced at 2.5" apart and uses Peco medium turnouts for the crossovers. The yard has tracks spaced at 2.125" apart based on the usage of Microengineering yard ladder turnouts. Everything else is flex track. For the outer loop, given a clearance of 3" over the inner loops all of the grades are less than 1.6%. I also threw in an idea for the turntable you mentioned and added some easements to the outer loop. I also changed the crossover tracks at the bottom to avoid hard S-curves, so you should be able to get smooth operations forwards and backwards. Hope you like it.


so im bored.. with a thumping root canal that was very deep. Garage isn't clean, and this is where this is going...

so I decided to throw it together in AnyRail with the 50 piece limitation. Since I am using flextrack… I could get a good portion done.
I didn't know how to do the elevation and twist so I just did it as 3 ovals... hah


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Slopes in AnyRail (from memory, but hopefully I haven't yet lost enough brain cells that I' m way off):

Right click on the joint between two track pieces where you want the slope to start and select "set height", enter "0" then "lock height". If there isn't a joint where you want it, right click on that spot and say "cut flex here" (you don't actually have to make a cut when you build it -- it's just how the software handles it). You may have to reconnect the pieces -- and remember, since you're using the free version, that this will add a piece to your count. Go to where you want the slope to end and repeat the process, this time setting the height at 3" (or whatever -- 3" is the minimum vertical clearance for HO). Then hold down the "shift" key and left click on each piece of track in the section that will be sloped. This should select all of them. Now click on the "Create Slope" button in the tool bar at the top. Click on the check box to display slope (also in the toolbar). You should have a nice, smooth slope from 0 to 3" or whatever height you set. If it's greater than 2%, consider lengthening the sloped section (you will have to unlock the heights to do it); if it's greater than 3% you'll probably want to add an easement (a short section of more gradual slope at the beginning and end. You do this in the same way: lock the height of the end points and create a slope.


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I did a quick layout to check, and yes those inner loops are definitely 15" radius. Not a good way to start, you'll be highly disappointed with the results.
> 
> Since the idea of a 5x9 was thrown out, I went ahead and worked up a layout for you based on your video, but with some extra ideas thrown in. This was done in xtrkcad, and you can use this link if you want to grab the file to work with it yourself. The smallest curve here has a 20.5" radius. The mainline is spaced at 2.5" apart and uses Peco medium turnouts for the crossovers. The yard has tracks spaced at 2.125" apart based on the usage of Microengineering yard ladder turnouts. Everything else is flex track. For the outer loop, given a clearance of 3" over the inner loops all of the grades are less than 1.6%. I also threw in an idea for the turntable you mentioned and added some easements to the outer loop. I also changed the crossover tracks at the bottom to avoid hard S-curves, so you should be able to get smooth operations forwards and backwards. Hope you like it.


I have the outer loop done but not exactly like that... 
how do I know where to start going up and the sort?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The track joint at the left side of the turnout in the lower left. You don't want that turnout on a grade.

You would have to hit 3" of elevation at the joint tight before the upper track crosses over. Back down the same way. This is going to give you about a 3.5% grade, which is going to be problematic without additional space to ease it.

What I would do is put the section with the crossovers at an elevation of 1" to 1.5". Then you can use the inner track to absorb some of your height change, and make the slope of them outer track acceptable.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

That's about how I laid it out as well. The bottom area where the two outer loops join is sitting at 1.375". This allows the back of the outer loop to rise to 3", and the two inner loops to drop to 0" at the back. Keep the inner loop flat at 0" so your entire yard is also flat. Also keep all of the turnouts flat.

Basically what you're doing here is splitting the difference between the various loops so that no single loop has to rise the entire 3". As CTValley said, you would have impossible grades if you tried to do that. By splitting the grade, your outer loop will be the steepest at 1.7%, which isn't bad for a single loco and a handful of cars.

I forget, was there a reason why you specifically needed a 3" rise? If you dropped that only 1/4", down to 2.75" clearance, it would bring all of your grades evenly to about 1.5%. You might want to play with the height of that outer loop and see what your trains can easily climb before making the layout permanent.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

Riggzie,
As someone who uses JMRI on NCE, I will say I love it.
Note: I am a noob to the hobby in my mind. I have been reading, and watching videos for the last 5 yrs. I am also a IT System Admin, so JMRI was something I would totally geek out over.

Regarding NCE, I am trashing my nce system and going to DigiTrax due to NCE's poor customer service. Completely ignored my request for a phone call to discuss some questions I had. MRC and DigiTrax spent 30 min each without a problem. In the end I found DigiTrax to meet my needs/wants.

My recommendations is to make sure your happy with the level of Customer Service provided.


I have a 11 by 6 L shaped HO layout.
1) I have a dedicated Mac mini setup running JMRI which I can program my decoders via nice gui. 
2) I can speed match with ease using said gui.
3) I can Program on the main or if I had a programming track, select that.
Read decoder default settings, save them in a config file which I store incase of serious issue.
4) I have a tablet which has a minimal throttle slide time with + / - button and control upto 6 loco's, key word being "UPTO" meaning I can reduce that number to my desired with with out having to buy new hardware.
5) Cell phone acting as a throttle is really nice. Perfect fit in my had for a single loco (or a jmri controlled consit) with all the function controls in the order I want.
6) Lets not forget you dont have to remember what function number does what for each decoder such as for Loksound F8 is engine start / stop and for Tsunami2 F8 is Notch down (I believe ~ I re programmed my Tsunami) The functions are labeled what ever YOU want to call them.
7) Lets not even get into the Consisting. Its done via JMRI. On the cell phone, acquire a loco. Then add a second or third loco. And its done. No CV values to worry about. JMRI does all the controlling for you. Including loco direction.

And there are many many more advantages to the system.

If your interested and have skype, I would be willing to setup a conference call over the internet and let you see my setup.

Youtube has a lot of people showing off JMRI from the very basic usage to the more advanced.

Good Luck


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## Riggzie (Dec 24, 2019)

johnfm3 said:


> Riggzie,
> As someone who uses JMRI on NCE, I will say I love it.
> Note: I am a noob to the hobby in my mind. I have been reading, and watching videos for the last 5 yrs. I am also a IT System Admin, so JMRI was something I would totally geek out over.
> 
> ...


sweet..thx for all of that!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I forget, was there a reason why you specifically needed a 3" rise? If you dropped that only 1/4", down to 2.75" clearance, it would bring all of your grades evenly to about 1.5%. You might want to play with the height of that outer loop and see what your trains can easily climb before making the layout permanent.


I may have thrown that out. It's a good rule of thumb for vertical clearance in HO. It allows for roadbed etc under the lower track and some structure below the upper.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

I would like to add my 2 cents on the layout. Riggzie, did I miss the reason for 3 loops? As dcc can control multiple trains on 1 loop doing different things, having a upper and lower loop with a section of track to change elevation would still be really cool. And if it was done so that a train could go around the lower loop, elevate to the upper loop and return back down to the lower loop, that would still make for a lot of travel. And the variety of having trains stay above and below. If the reason is because you want a full 2 loops down below, thats cool. I was just curious.

Hope you caught my PM.

John


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## scottmac99 (Dec 3, 2019)

I've had this for a number years, and am quite happy with it. It's not supposed to allow you to change any of the CV values, except for turning the lights on and setting the forward/reverse direction of the locos. But .... somehow I have managed to modify the momentum setting on my On30 Bachmann Forney, and I have no idea how I did it. I would like to know, so that I can change it back to the standard setting again. I _think_ it was by holding the function key and pushing one of the buttons a few times quickly. Anyone have any ideas?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Lemonhawk said:


> 5x9 makes a big difference over 4x8. You really don't want any 15" radius curves!



Riggzie

Experimenting with your new flex track is a very good idea. You will find that those
very tight curves in the layout you propose will not accomodate today's diesel locomotives.
They likely would derail because the radi is too tight. In addition, the ends of the loco
will protrude far outside the track. This also could contribute to derailing of cars coupled to the loco. 

The 0-4-0 designation indicates the drive wheel configuration on very small steam
locos that were often used as switchers. Those wheels could negotiate the tight
curves without derailing...

Any of today's major brand DCC systems will have enough power to run 3, 4 or more
DCC locomotives at the same time. The big 5 amp boosters are used on
larger layouts with a number of sound locos...those do draw more current
than non sound locos. At the proper layout speed, a non sound DCC loco
will draw around .3 amp...

Most DCC systems have available PLUG IN wireless throttles. Or you
can wire various jacks around the layout and move a 'wired' throttle
to where your action is.

As you have noted, there is a difference in the 'feel' from one model
controller to the next. You should try the various types before
deciding on your purchase.

You also should be aware that you would likely need a low voltage
power source for your turnouts, lights and other accessories. The
DCC system does not provide that current. Many of us use 
old wall warts that put out around 12 volts, usually DC. There is
a label on each that describes it's output.

Don


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