# My Favorite "Locos" This Week: In Praise of Small Steam Locos



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)




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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Great category this week Lee. My locos are all Pre & Postwar, and my steam locos are the 0-4-0 switchers (1615/1625) from Postwar. On the Prewar, we have a 1506 Clockwork Set from Ives. They have a subtle charm.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

A little Marx steamer, pretty basic stuff here.

Bill


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## mackerel (Oct 9, 2018)

Great post this week. Since my layout is on the smaller side, I tend to favor tiny and small Locomotives. They also tend to run better on the O31 curves.


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## Guest (May 28, 2019)

I think this is one of the best 10-wheelers ever done in O-Gauge.

View attachment 497136


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## mackerel (Oct 9, 2018)

Another tiny one that is lot of fun to run. It's conventional only (Williams by Bachman), but pulls very well for its size. The best part is it was less than $200.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I didn't realize that you had so many small engines Lee. I've always wanted a General and probably will order one from the MTH catalog #2 2019.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

The MTH Abraham Lincoln, diecast shell and very powerful motor. DCS command control with pretty good sounds.

Bill


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Nothing as small as those 1860 engines but my favorites by far are my Moguls. I can't seem to get enough of them. They get dwarfed by the Lionel 10 wheelers. They all run like a watch including 713 which is a Legacy version.
















Also a smooth runner is this 3rd Rail 2-8-0. Hard to tell from this pic but its considerably smaller than the Harriman 2-8-0s that Lionel has done. 









Pete


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)




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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My contribution to the small steam lineup are these two, they're the smallest steam engines I have. Both of them are command with fan driven smoke, but no sound, just couldn't fit it in.

I also have the Legacy #377 that Brian posted, I agree it's a really great looking 10-wheeler. I'm sure it was a bear to keep looking like that in revenue service, but a great looking model just the same.


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## mike kennedy (Sep 30, 2013)

I too like the size of smaller steamers the 0-6-0s are an mth and a weaver that I run as a lashup[no power in the Weaver, just puffing smoke] pushing a crane and workcar. 2-8-0 is mth and 4-6-0 is weaver converted to ps2 both good runners


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## mike kennedy (Sep 30, 2013)

lost the pics I'll try again


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

The Great Locomotive Chase steamers from the LCCA.

Bill


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## mackerel (Oct 9, 2018)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I think this is one of the best 10-wheelers ever done in O-Gauge.


I think we just posted the exact same engine! It really is well made and a ton of fun to run.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, Brian posted the Legacy C&O 10-Wheeler, I have the same locomotive.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually, Brian posted the Legacy C&O 10-Wheeler, I have the same locomotive.
> 
> View attachment 497188


One of my two ten-wheelers I posted is the same model, just different paint. 

I agree this model is one of the best O-Gauge model locos ever made. It has no flaws, just really good in every regard. I run mine a lot.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have identified one flaw that I intend to correct. When you stop this locomotive, the smoke fan stops, but the heater is still running. That cooks the wick. This being an early Legacy, they didn't have full fan control. It appears with my new smaller Super-Chuffer, I can replace their sleazy fan controller with the Super-Chuffer and get full control of the fan and idle smoke.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

My two most recent steamer purchases are in the tiny (PRR A5) and small (PRR G5s) categories. Both are MTH Premier and have great detail. The A5 in particular has a lot of valve gear for such a little loco. I would not have bought them normally, especially since they have that dreaded MTH drawbar, but they were very low mileage and they were offered at great prices…too good to pass up. I haven’t given either of them too much run time, but they both happen to be on my layout now.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Lovely locos. That MTH A5 has more detail than the Legacy version. Very nice. Both of them. The drawbar is always annoying, but apparently we just have to live with it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Did someone say Tiny O ???

My 1501 and 1503 ... 6" in length!



TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's that big thing sticking out of the side TJ?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is one area in my collection that I'm missing. Smallest engine I have are light mikados and ten wheelers. Will try to find a TMCC mogul version at the next York.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gary, I have it on solid authority that Legacy Moguls are going pretty cheap.


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## mackerel (Oct 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Actually, Brian posted the Legacy C&O 10-Wheeler, I have the same locomotive.
> 
> View attachment 497188



Ahh, OK. Brian's looks very similar to the Williams loco that I posted. Mine is obviously not Legacy. Still may favorite small Loco. Thanks for that info.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to say, steam is pretty well represented in my stable. In addition to the really small ones previously mentioned, here are some of the smaller members...

*Lionel Legacy B6b Switcher*








*Lionel Legacy 2-Truck Shay*








*MTH General*


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gary, I have it on solid authority that Legacy Moguls are going pretty cheap.



If I can find one really cheap, I can turn it into a dummy engine and lash it up with the TMCC version.:smilie_auslachen:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gary, I have it on solid authority that Legacy Moguls are going pretty cheap.



Do you have a ball park figure? I would like to determine if its worth the drive down to pick up a few.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Pete, it was really a joke. I have no idea what they did with all of them, I wonder if they'll show up at the fall sale at Lionel?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Do you have a ball park figure? I would like to determine if its worth the drive down to pick up a few.
> 
> Pete


I've been told they will show up in the fall sale with a big disclaimer that they are less than perfect.

Depending on how cheap they are I wouldn't mind picking one up.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

They would have be pretty cheap for me to consider a trip, like under 200 bucks. Cost of the trip alone for me would be at least half again that amount but if they were that low I would get a few. Also wouldn't mind getting a few UP 21" cars. They must have a ton of those too that were returned.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> They would have be pretty cheap for me to consider a trip, like under 200 bucks. Cost of the trip alone for me would be at least half again that amount but if they were that low I would get a few. Also wouldn't mind getting a few UP 21" cars. They must have a ton of those too that were returned.
> 
> Pete


If they are I may have you pick one up for me if you are willing.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I would be happy to. Maybe we can get Dave to give us an idea of price before the sale.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> I would be happy to. Maybe we can get Dave to give us an idea of price before the sale.
> 
> Pete


Yes, remind me closer to November and I'll ask.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If they're cheap enough, I'd pick up one or two. I like the Mogul, just want it to be a running example.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

The Lionel Legacy NW2 isn't a bad little locomotive.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Not much steam in that one Jake.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Not much steam in that one Jake.


It smokes pretty well....



That's what I get for posting to a thread I read through and not paying close enough attention to the title


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Just having fun Jake.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Here, I'll balance out that diesel with a favorite small steam engine.... 

I picked up the TMCC 2-6-0 several years ago from eBay. I believe it was right around the time people were discovering the issues with the newly introduced Legacy units. I can't stand the sound system in this one, but its a great runner and looks very nice with a short freight or passenger train. It gets a lot of runtime on the club layout at our holiday events. Unfortunately the whistle sounds like an injured animal and it only has 2 chuffs/revolution (most people wouldn't care probably, but I can't un-hear it after working on the real thing every day), but other than that it's one of my favorite locomotives.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

That is a very handsome engine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I like the Moguls, if I get a chance at the right price, I'd take a chance on the Legacy one.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

How about gut the legacy and put in ERR? If these engines are cheap enough


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

santafe158 said:


> Here, I'll balance out that diesel with a favorite small steam engine....
> 
> I picked up the TMCC 2-6-0 several years ago from eBay. I believe it was right around the time people were discovering the issues with the newly introduced Legacy units. I can't stand the sound system in this one, but its a great runner and looks very nice with a short freight or passenger train. It gets a lot of runtime on the club layout at our holiday events. Unfortunately the whistle sounds like an injured animal and it only has 2 chuffs/revolution (most people wouldn't care probably, but I can't un-hear it after working on the real thing every day), but other than that it's one of my favorite locomotives.
> 
> View attachment 497564


Easy fix for the chuff Jake.









As for swapping electronics I am sure the problems are all mechanical primarily with the gearbox. Other issues may include missing bushings on the rods. Swapping rods along with the proper bushings fixed my Legacy engine..

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> How about gut the legacy and put in ERR? If these engines are cheap enough


Since it's the mechanics of the drivetrain that's the problem, that doesn't accomplish much.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Since it's the mechanics of the drivetrain that's the problem, that doesn't accomplish much.


I'm not convinced, Dealing with this issue as long as I have. Some can be fixed some can't. No two are alike. Yes the gear ratio change that brings it to the very low end of what the Legacy electronics can handle is a big part of it but I'm wondering if aftermarket could improve things. Hooking up a DC power supply to the thing and running it down the track might shed some light on the matter.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am sure my Legacy Mogul never went back to China so still has its original gearing and programming yet its as smooth as my TMCC ones. But as you say they apparently had multiple problems so who knows.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

superwarp1 said:


> I'm not convinced, Dealing with this issue as long as I have. Some can be fixed some can't. No two are alike. Yes the gear ratio change that brings it to the very low end of what the Legacy electronics can handle is a big part of it but I'm wondering if aftermarket could improve things. Hooking up a DC power supply to the thing and running it down the track might shed some light on the matter.


Gary, since the same Legacy RCMC is used in a vast majority of all the current production, my sense is that the issue will be the mechanics. The symptoms described by many folks, and the only one I saw in person looked like mechanical binding, not electronics.

The simple fact that there have been significant differences in the reported issues leads me to believe that something that's more variable than a PCB production is at the heart of the problem. The RCMC boards are all made at one facility, and to have only the Mogul have an issue with them would be a very long shot, at least IMO.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gary, since the same Legacy RCMC is used in a vast majority of all the current production, my sense is that the issue will be the mechanics. The symptoms described by many folks, and the only one I saw in person looked like mechanical binding, not electronics.
> 
> The simple fact that there have been significant differences in the reported issues leads me to believe that something that's more variable than a PCB production is at the heart of the problem. The RCMC boards are all made at one facility, and to have only the Mogul have an issue with them would be a very long shot, at least IMO.


It's not a defect of the board, it's that fact the gear ratio is outside what the RCMC can handle/programed to. I saw that on my engine as I would get the occasional flashing cab light and I would have to cycle the power to get the engine moving again.

Yes there were issues with the traction tires, no bushing in the front driver/running gear, alignment of the axle gear and motor worm gear, the list goes on.

I do agree with Pete, on the fact I don't think the factory did a damn thing to these engines to try to correct them. Other than change my sounds in my tender for some odd reason.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just a reminder of how a Legacy Mogul can run. I had to replace the rods because they were broken but they may have been broken because the bushing for the side rod up front was missing. That will cause the rods to bind and I expect if overlooked will eventually crack and break the rod. I checked the gear mesh and that was fine.
No Youtube account so you will have follow this link. If MTF had direct video uploads I would post more here. BTW total investment including parts was 220 bucks.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/my-legacy-modul-lives

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gary, I'd be VERY surprised if there's any connection to the RCMC or it's programming. I think you're looking in the wrong place.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gary, I'd be VERY surprised if there's any connection to the RCMC or it's programming. I think you're looking in the wrong place.


Just going on what Dave told me and where he was zeroing in on when he was told to hang it up. Factory changed the gear ratio after the production samples were approved. The RCMC was programed with the new ratio which was at the lower end of what the RCMC could handle. Hence the issues with the flashing cab light and the stalling. Yes it's mechanical, causing the electronics fits. I'm wondering if we'd get different results with a ERR cruise commander installed. And with that I hope you or Pete and me can get our hands on a discounted one to continue the trouble shooting/testing. At the right price of course.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll be pretty surprised if changing the board will fix it.


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## JoeSaggese (Aug 17, 2018)

My 4-4-0 is packed away but here's a picture of it. Would like to have another one


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'll be pretty surprised if changing the board will fix it.


If I understand what Gary is refering to is they had to reprogram the RCMC when they changed the gearing. They changed the gearing because the original Legacy motor and gears didn't mesh right causing the first round of mechanical problems. 
Then new gearing was at the lower end of what the RCMC could deal with. ERR could likely deal with the lower gearing better.
Just a guess on my part.
I would prefer to get my hands on engines that never went back to China and had the original programming. I know I can deal with those. Too many new variables to deal with on the ones that went back the factory.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Maybe I'll just wait for the re-issue.


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Norton said:


> Just a reminder of how a Legacy Mogul can run. I had to replace the rods because they were broken but they may have been broken because the bushing for the side rod up front was missing. That will cause the rods to bind and I expect if overlooked will eventually crack and break the rod. I checked the gear mesh and that was fine.
> No Youtube account so you will have follow this link. If MTF had direct video uploads I would post more here. BTW total investment including parts was 220 bucks.
> 
> My Legacy Mogul Lives!
> ...



Hi Pete,

Bringing up an old sore subject again. I have a chance to pick up one of the Legacy Moguls new in the box for a reasonable price. I've waded through all the threads & posts about these engines and the various issues with them. Seems like some were worse than others but the two common issues were the traction tires and the missing rod bushings. I've read your posts with your solutions especially the missing bushing install in the side rods and the motor worm to worm gear adjustment. Of course Lionel still lists those rod bushings as NLA. By any chance did you happen to fabricate any extra bushings that you would be able to sell a couple of them to me? If not, do you have the measurements that you used to make yours that I can pass on to one of my buddies and try to bribe him to make me a couple? After being a journeyman machinist for many years, a couple of years ago I sold about 99% of all my profession's tools/equipment to a young fellow who is attending McPherson College in Kansas and is pursuing a 4 year degree in automotive restoration. Jay Leno awards scholarships to this college.

Anyway, I watched the video of your "fixed" engine operating and it runs very nice. Thanks for the help in advance.

Nick


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I thought of buying on of those moguls and fixing it, because as you point out it is a nice little loco. But I have so many other projects, and . . . well, you know.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Speaking of the Legacy Mogul, I took a leap of faith and bought this one sealed in the box for $349. The one obvious issue is the bushings for the front set of drivers are missing, those rods flop around like they're not attached! Pete (Norton) has generously offered to send me a set of bushings for it, Lionel no longer has them in stock. I haven't even powered it up, I'm not going to attempt to run before replacing the bushings, apparently Pete got one with a broken rod for cheap because that happened.

My plan is to see if I can make this into a Strasburg Mogul once it's running 100%. That of course assumes that I can indeed get it running 100%.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

John, the B&M might have been Gary's first choice. Maybe you two could work out a swap for the shells before you strip it. I have relettered three of my four Moguls. Lettering comes off easily with lacquer thinner. The Railsounds are generic so no need to swap boards.

Nick, PM me on the bushings. Dimensions are .180" OD, .125" ID. Actually I just measure the OD of the screw shoulder and ID of the rod. Lionel shows .180 for theirs and the TMCC rods measure .182" but I have found most of the Legacy rods are egged out some varying between .174-.185" probably from being test run without the bushing. Length is just under the length of the shoulder, not critical.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I could probably be talked into a swap, depending on what he has. If he has CN #89, we're all in!  I'm guessing that's not what he has...


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Gary's is the Central Vermont in the video. I take it you would prefer a center headlight with the number boards above. I have a relettered Grand Trunk in that configuration but its numbered 713. Mine is still 713 as its a pain to change the headlight and number board numbers but lettered for NYC Lines. Easy to change though.
Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What video? I didn't find a picture of the CV Mogul, but the headlight on the B&M has the proper headlight location. I have to think about changing the numbers as that can be messy.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The CN, Grand Trunk, and Strasburg have this number board detail above the headlight.










Pete


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Great idea Lee. Always loved that type of locomotive. I have a friend that has an O gauge old west layout and has several of those. Nothing fancy as far as Legacy and such. He is old school and a stickler about running those engines as close to scale speed which was no more than 30 mph on a good day. Running off his ZW, they just chug along at a slow steady speed, with no more than 4-5 cars and a caboose. He has done a lot of research into that era of railroads and likes to operate with prototype accuracy. I have no idea about which brands he has. He has had them for many years. 

Kenny


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