# I want to expand already



## swiggy (Jan 25, 2010)

here is my layout. the lower section (with buildings, lights, etc.) is 4ft. x 6ft. and the upper section (on left side) is 8ft. 7in. x 47in.

I would like to have two ovals on the lower section (one 18", the other 22"), and one oval on the upper section (18" radius, and level) with one feeder line going up/down. 

four questions:

1. with DC - I think i need to isolate the up/down section. is this correct?
2. with DCC - I think i need a reversing section located on the up/down section. is this correct?
3. in the area i have available, can I get the train up to say 3 1/2 to 4 inches?
4. how many feet should i make the incline/decline?

please let me know if i need to explain anything better.

layout video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkswO0TWDJE

GP60M struggling with twleve cars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V6YfrVtZEE

thanks


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

swig, you forgot to attach diagram of your layout


if by up/down section you mean "reversing loop" then yes you need to isolate it and use AR module. hard to judge without the diagram.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Re: Questions 3 & 4 ...

You're pulling some heavy loads. Pros with a HUGE layout might suggest you keep your incline grade to 1% or so. Some simple math:

3.5" rise @ 1% grade = 350" of run = 29' of run ... that's a lot for your layout size.

Given the space confinements, consider 2% grade:

3.5" rise @ 2% = 175" of run = 14.5' of run

A 22" radius circle has 138" of circumference. A half circle has 69".

At 2% grade, you'd need 106" (about 9') of inclined straight track leading into/out-of a 22" radius inclined half circle to achieve a 3.5" rise. I.e., 4.5" straight incline, inclined half circle, 4.5' continued straight incline. Can you fit that? Your call.

TJ


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## swiggy (Jan 25, 2010)

sorry tankist, no diagram, just the vids to show the layout. 

thanks tj, that is some extremely valuable information for a beginner. i think i have 10 feet on one wall, and 8 feet seven inches on the other wall ( I have to figure in the switches to the incline/decline). should i get an incline set 2-3%? i think the 2% incline is 18 feet in length to four inches in height?


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

apart of not watching youtube from work, i can't make out the dimensions from your vid and as with any plan, aproximation is very bad. and then you have quite serious layout for a beginner, so i don't think drawing a plan in planning software (anyrail, xtrCad or any other) should be really a problem for you. in anycase it is a very good thing to have. 

as for grades , if 12 cars is what you want to pull you really need to stay below 3%, i think 2 will be quite noticeable. i have over 4% grades and can barely pull 6-7 cars (depends which ones.)


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Swig,

I'm not experienced enough to advise you on what Grade % is right for you. I built a little layout recently where I had to go up about 3" on a 4x8 oval/figure-8 layout. I opted for a 4% grade ... I knew it would be steep, but I knew I wouldn't be pulling that many cars. Works OK for me, but not ideal.

You're pulling big loads. In your video of a diesel stuggling uphill with its many cars, what is the grade rise of that section of layout? I think using that "known benchmark" as a reference point is your best advocate / learning tool.

To elaborate on your math question ...

Grade % is just a simple ratio ... 1% means 1" of rise for every 100" of run. 2% = 2" rise in 100" of run, etc. So ...

If you're targeting a 4" rise at 2%, that requires 200" of run, or 16.7'.

Again, use your existing grade data as a benchmark.

TJ


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## swiggy (Jan 25, 2010)

thank you guys tremendously. I was thinking????????? can i use a puller to get the train up the grade to the upper oval? i think in 18 feet a 3% grade can be achieved. this will take some time, the layout in the vid took 2 weeks. thanks again everyone!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think anyone who can build a layout like that "in two weeks" can do just about anything they put their mind to! You've got good talent on your side!


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## swiggy (Jan 25, 2010)

thank you very much


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey swiggy... 
I don't have any useful information to offer because this newbie hasn't even started to built a layout yet, but just wanted to say how interesting your track design is because the train travels in so many different directions to make its circuit. 

I was curious... is the grade the same going in the other direction? Also would adding another engine overcome pulling the same number of cars up the grade? That's probably what they do on the real railroads.


Greg


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## swiggy (Jan 25, 2010)

hey greg, the grade was not the same. I have again changed the layout. I now have roughly 3% grades using atlas piers. The second engine does help pull or push. I have tried both ways and I prefer two engines in front. Fortunately my Bachman and athearn are pretty well matched - only one problem - can't use the bachman when I go DCC. I can now pull 9-10 cars with one engine up the grade. VERY, VERY fun!


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Cool!...
Just from what I've read and having no actual experience, 3% seems to be a reasonable grade limit.

I was reading that on small spur railroads the engines pushed their loads up hill. Does the same hold true for regular main line railroads? Which begs the next question... on your layout does pushing work as well as pulling?

Man... I can't wait to get a board set up so I can experiment with trestles to see how the engines can handle their loads uphill. 

Have you ever used a transformer with "momentum" and "braking"? I had no idea this feature even existed until recently, and just got a little MRC Tech 4 220. The engine accelerates and slows down in a realistic delayed fashion just like a real train. 

It gets rid of the "slot car" performance... 

Greg


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

choo choo said:


> Cool!...
> Just from what I've read and having no actual experience, 3% seems to be a reasonable grade limit.
> 
> I was reading that on small spur railroads the engines pushed their loads up hill. Does the same hold true for regular main line railroads? Which begs the next question... on your layout does pushing work as well as pulling?
> ...


i don't see real life railroads stopping in the middle to change position of the pulling power. at best they might get a helper loco pushing from behind in mountainous areas.

on your layout it is completely different issue.
IMO one should strive for 100% reliable trackwork that will allow both pulling and pushing, up and down in both directions at max speeds. then you free to figure out how you going to operate it 

as far as momentum it is nice. at the moment i run pure DCC (sold the only working dc pack i had left) i have powerCub system set to simulate it. it is making things fun. goodnes, i want to add sound so bad...


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

tankist said:


> i don't see real life railroads stopping in the middle to change position of the pulling power. at best they might get a helper loco pushing from behind in mountainous areas.


And that would really irritate a conductor in a wooden caboose. Not to mention spilling coffee all over everywhere.


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## swiggy (Jan 25, 2010)

I have run both ways - two engines in front, one front, one rear - it works both ways, but the engines need to match speed. The first vid is layout progress, the second is commentary with GP60M pulling 16 cars up 3% grade. When I travel to the western slope of Colorado there is a train (cali zephyr) from denver to glenwood springs and grand junction. usually I see 3-4 engines pulling these very slowly. I am going that way in a month or so, i will try to take pictures!!!! vid 1 long, 2 shorter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cwFLRvnUKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=074Cgh8vslo


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## bradimous1 (Mar 3, 2010)

swiggy said:


> I have run both ways - two engines in front, one front, one rear - it works both ways, but the engines need to match speed. The first vid is layout progress, the second is commentary with GP60M pulling 16 cars up 3% grade. When I travel to the western slope of Colorado there is a train (cali zephyr) from denver to glenwood springs and grand junction. usually I see 3-4 engines pulling these very slowly. I am going that way in a month or so, i will try to take pictures!!!! vid 1 long, 2 shorter
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cwFLRvnUKk
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=074Cgh8vslo


 jealous


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