# Lionel's New Union Pacific Excursion Train-***Diner Photos 4/2 & Final Thoughts***



## 86TA355SR

*Lionel's New Union Pacific Excursion Train-***Diner Photos 4/2 & Final Thoughts****

When Lionel 'announced' the UP Excursion Train in the 2015 VOL II catalog, I couldn't stop smiling for days. It seemed like years before the 2016 Signature catalog arrived! I'm really excited to see this offered. For many years, I've wanted THAT train! 

*Bonuses:*
*Accurate* to prototype-enough said!

The set: Lionel did a great job choosing which cars to make. There are a lot of actual UP Excursion cars, so I was curious which Lionel would choose.

The *4 Pack* offers the generator, a coach, dome, and flat end dome observation. Give Lionel an "A" please!

The *generator* car-no one has ever offered this car in 3R! Plus, it's going to have sound.

The *observation* car-The only other 3R flat end UP observation car is the K-line version. Those are highly sought after and demand top dollar.

The *2 Pack*-The "*FLAG*" car and _another_ *coach*. Finally, we'll have an accurate "FLAG" car in 3Rail. MTH's 18" version, though nice, depicts a 'generic' passenger car and didn't have the door painted. Some of us had the door painted professionally. I will keep my MTH version, but expect others soon on the market. And, unlike the past, they'll quickly loose the over inflated prices we've witnessed (opinion). Many modelers wanted only the 'Flag' car and I'm glad Lionel didn't make it part of the 4 pack.

Station Sound *Diner*-I love the design and will buy it for that reason alone. Sounds are a plus.

*ABS construction*-Two great things about this material. *One*, the modular design of the new ABS cars will allow some new passenger cars not previously released. That should be exciting for many O gauge hobbyist. *Second*, the detail and accuracy Lionel will put into these cars was possible with the new material. Sure, it could have been done in aluminum, but not at this price point. Careful shopping will find the pre-order 'street price' of $880 for all the cars, plus shipping. Hard to beat that price for accurate cars, let alone 2 cars with sound.

*Flicker Free* LEDs-give Lionel another "A"!

*Future productio*n-I would love to see Lionel offer a few more cars in later catalogs. However, I'm quite pleased by what they've already offered.

Curious to view other comments/opinions on the new Excursion Train. And, who will be ordering one?


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## davidone

Think you said it all Aaron, looks like the best set ever produced in 3 rail. Even though i still have the K-line 21" passenger cars I just may go for the Lionel version.


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## seayakbill

I rode the UP excursion train from Denver to Cheyenne during a LCCA Denver convention. I lucked out and got a dome seat. That run had the 844 pulling it, got some great pictures from the dome of that steamer belching out the smoke.

Bill


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## Chugman

I agree that this is a very exciting release. Has to be right up there with the Atlas CAZ cars. Very well stated comments regarding the attributes of these cars.

Art


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## Guest

Aaron, I wish you could show more excitement.


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## 86TA355SR

Chugman said:


> I agree that this is a very exciting release. Has to be right up there with the Atlas CAZ cars. Very well stated comments regarding the attributes of these cars.
> 
> Art


Art, this is an exciting time to be in O Gauge. Lionel has really turned up the heat with the new 21" cars!



Passenger Train Collector said:


> Aaron, I wish you could show more excitement.


Brian, I _know _you've _already_ ordered yours, don't be bashful!  And, I'll be even more excited when it arrives!



davidone said:


> Think you said it all Aaron, looks like the best set ever produced in 3 rail. Even though i still have the K-line 21" passenger cars I just may go for the Lionel version.


As you and others know, I love the UP K-Line 21" cars. For the era I model, you can't beat them. The new Lionel Excursion train is outside that era, but I've wanted it for a long time and there is something about it that I've always liked. Several of us have been pushing GGD to do it, so I was blown away by Lionel's announcement in VOL II. _Geez, those guys at Lionel may really know what they're doing after all, which is why we didn't see the UP cars in the initial offerings for the 21" cars._ I remember thinking how odd that was, _now_ we know they had this planned!


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## Traindiesel

Got my order in for these. UP 21" passenger cars are one of the few sets I didn't get from K-Line. I have the K-Line 18" set, and I'll run both when the Excursion set arrives.

Another question:
_*What locomotive will you use to haul this set?*_

I'll be using my MTH ABA E8 set, an MTH FEF and maybe one of my Big Boys, Coal Turbine, Veranda Turbine or DD40AX just for fun!


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## Laidoffsick

I'm not even a UP guy, and I'm going to order it. Gotta have something for all my UP steam to pull


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## Fabforrest

If I could run 'em, I'd get 'em.


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## 86TA355SR

Traindiesel said:


> Another question:
> _*What locomotive will you use to haul this set?*_


Most likely an FEF or a Challenger



Laidoffsick said:


> I'm not even a UP guy, and I'm going to order it. Gotta have something for all my UP steam to pull


There's still time to come to the Jedi side of the Force, Doug....!


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## Yellowstone Special

davidone said:


> Think you said it all Aaron, looks like the best set ever produced in 3 rail.


Wow. Looks like some of you are really excited about these UP excursion passenger cars. I've never considered getting a modern day excursion train since I prefer to stick with the 1950s through 1960s era.

But that American flag enveloped baggage car is a real eye catcher. I hope these cars live up to all of your expectations and that they will indeed turn out to be the "best set ever produced in 3 rail."


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## Fabforrest

wish they would make these in 15"

certainly, there must be a market for them.


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## Yellowstone Special

Forrest: I'm wondering if 15" passenger cars are dying out, never to be revived.


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## Fabforrest

sadly, you may be right, Vern. 

all those big layout guys get all the action.


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## 86TA355SR

Yellowstone Special said:


> Wow. Looks like some of you are really excited about these UP excursion passenger cars. I've never considered getting a modern day excursion train since I prefer to stick with the 1950s through 1960s era.
> 
> Me neither, until this set came along!
> 
> But that American flag enveloped baggage car is a real eye catcher....
> 
> It sure is, I was happy to see Lionel add it to the consist. Can't imagine this set _without_ THAT car, but you never know until the catalog arrives!
> 
> I hope these cars live up to all of your expectations and that they will indeed turn out to be the "best set ever produced in 3 rail."


I really think for the price point that this train will be well received.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Yellowstone Special said:


> Forrest: I'm wondering if 15" passenger cars are dying out, never to be revived.





Fabforrest said:


> sadly, you may be right, Vern. ... all those big layout guys get all the action.


Well Lionel did recently deliver two Neil Young Signature Line sets after a very long delay: Texas Special and Pennsy. But those may be the last 15" aluminum cars we see from Lionel.
Same for the 18" aluminum cars just delivered in the past few months.

Frankly, I think the pendulum will eventually swing back to products like the 15" passenger cars (albeit in ABS plastic) with "selective compression" once folks realize the 21" products have been sold to enthusiasts who can't do them any justice. For now, these 21-inchers are the "in" product to talk about. But I'd much rather have 15" cars with highly detailed interiors (and that means populated with people) rather than stark 21" interiors void of people.

I'm holding on to all my 18" aluminum passenger sets too.

David


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## Fabforrest

I agree, well populated. Not 6 people in a car.


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## 86TA355SR

Dave,
Agreed, the 21" cars are spectacular but I don't think some realize how big these monsters truly are! Hell, it's hard to even take pictures of a few 21" cars coupled together! Many hobbyist have asked for them repeatedly, so Lionel is offering them. Mike R said on the Notch 6 that Lionel will produce them if they're selling. It may be years before we see the 'fall out' effect from operators. As they appear on layouts, reality will set in how much real estate they consume.

Even if they do offer 18" cars again in ABS, I feel the hobbyist will be the winner. The detail at this price point is incredible. The same detail/better in brass has been done, but not at the current ABS price point. At approximately $880 preorder, street price, you get all of the Excursion cars and 2 have sound! How can that be beat?

Personally, I don't like the look of 21" cars on small radius curves. And, by small, I mean 0-72. Even on 0-140 my 21" K-Line cars have overhang-but that's a matter of taste and each of us has what's 'reasonable' in our mind.

Back to the Excursion train: if money was no object, I'd buy 2 complete trains. I'd 2 rail the other one and have some more fun!


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## rogruth

I think it is really nice to see all of these positive comments about a Lionel produced train.


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## Guest

It is only a matter of time before we see 15" and 18" cars re-enter the market. It won't take long before the 21" cars reach a saturation point.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> Dave,
> ... As they appear on layouts, reality will set in how much real estate they consume. ...


The thing about passenger cars is they have a relatively low profile, sleek "appearance". So this mitigates the 21" length for many folks -- at least in their mind when they're browsing the catalog and placing pre-orders. The cars that REALLY knock your socks off in terms of 21" size are those double-door automobile parts boxcars. Just ONE of those monsters will make even a modest-sized layout look smaller in a heartbeat.

Selective compression can be a good thing in the big picture. 

David


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## rboatertoo

I like the 21" cars, but the space they can take on the layout..... I like to keep trains on siding on the layout, but 5 cars at 21" is over 8 feet, now add engines. I am not complaining, just trying to figure out how to make the house bigger!!!!


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## Yellowstone Special

Passenger Train Collector said:


> It is only a matter of time before we see 15" and 18" cars re-enter the market. It won't take long before the 21" cars reach a saturation point.


I hope you're right, Brian. I have a smaller layout with tight curves, so can run passenger cars no longer than 15". It would be nice to see 15-inchers come back with the updated detailing that the 21-inchers have now, including the complete interiors with passengers inside.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Yellowstone Special said:


> ... including the complete interiors with passengers inside.


I'm a big fan of detailed interiors too, but it can be a double-edged sword -- mostly in terms of stuff breaking loose during shipping. I've encountered this with two GGD shipments. The stuff is top-notch, but the Chinese glue used to anchor things in place is cheap nowadays. Didn't seem to be as much of a problem with all the Lionel 15/18-inch sets I purchased years ago, but nowadays it's much more common to encounter something rattling in the box.

David


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## Yellowstone Special

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I'm a big fan of detailed interiors too, but it can be a double-edged sword -- mostly in terms of stuff breaking loose during shipping. I've encountered this with two GGD shipments. The stuff is top-notch, but the Chinese glue used to anchor things in place is cheap nowadays. Didn't seem to be as much of a problem with all the Lionel 15/18-inch sets I purchased years ago, but nowadays it's much more common to encounter something rattling in the box.
> 
> David


Not good, I wouldn't like that. Lionel and Williams aluminum cars are a real PITA to take apart just to change out light bulbs, so I imagine interior issues would be just as problematic.

If the 15-inchers came back in plastic with detailed interiors, hopefully, they would be easier to take apart than the aluminum ones are now. At least, that would be nice.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ...
> The *2 Pack*-The "*FLAG*" car and _another_ *coach*. Finally, we'll have an accurate "FLAG" car in 3Rail. MTH's 18" version, though nice, depicts a 'generic' passenger car and didn't have the door painted. Some of us had the door painted professionally. I will keep my MTH version, but expect others soon on the market. And, unlike the past, they'll quickly loose the over inflated prices we've witnessed (opinion). Many modelers wanted only the 'Flag' car and I'm glad Lionel didn't make it part of the 4 pack.
> 
> ...
> Curious to view other comments/opinions on the new Excursion Train. And, who will be ordering one?


Should be interesting to see if Lionel plans to have their Chinese factory produce the flag car in the 18" length more typical of baggage cars. Even Sunset/GGD did an 18" baggage car for their scale El Capitan passenger set, consisting mostly of 21" cars. I need to wait for their second production run to get the RPO car, but I'm thinking that'll probably be 18" also. 

Bottom line... I already own a nice Lionel 18" UP aluminum set with StationSounds diner. So I haven't convinced myself I "need" this new Excursion set (yet).  However, I might spring for the 2-pack that has the baggage car. So it would be particularly ideal if that were an 18" car. We know Lionel will be producing 18" cars for the AFT -- most of which are based on former baggage cars. So Lionel's factory will have already created the basic tooling for 18" baggage cars.

I will inquire with Lionel and see what they say.

David


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## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I'm a big fan of detailed interiors too, but it can be a double-edged sword -- mostly in terms of stuff breaking loose during shipping.
> David


*Yep, I know what you're saying! I have a lot of cars I need to take apart and glue passengers back in place. But, I don't mind. Will give me something to do when retired and an excuse to add LEDs!*



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Bottom line... I already own a nice Lionel 18" UP aluminum set with StationSounds diner. So I haven't convinced myself I "need" this new Excursion set (yet).
> 
> *Dave, you may want to rethink this. The new ABS cars are going to blow away the older Lionel Al UP cars*.
> 
> However, I might spring for the 2-pack that has the baggage car.
> 
> *Which is why I'm glad to see Lionel offer it in the 2 pack-buyers can get it and not a bunch of other cars they may not want. I wouldn't be surprised if Lionel sold more of this 2 pack than any of the other cars for that sole reason-the Flag car! I'm even considering buying 2 of the "Flag" two pack. Just a hunch, but I believe they'll sell out instantly with dealers who ordered extra and the price will soar on the "Flag" car. Plus, if you look at all the UP "Flag" items they've released in the last year, aux tenders, UP BB Commerative caboose, they've been popular and highly desirable. Most are sold out!*
> 
> David


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## callmeIshmael2

You guys are way over my head discussing 21-inch passenger cars, but no envy here, just amazement that so many of you obviously have very large layouts. Perhaps Ed could run (if he hasn't already) one of his questionnaires on layout size. I count myself lucky to have one wall in the basement for my 5' x 25' layout that's only 40 inches wide in the middle. Even 15" cars take up a lot of visual room rollin' down my track. 

Truly, I think a layout needs a fairly massive footprint before 21-inch cars would not appear at least a little overwhelming. Love seeing cars that long adorning someone's shelves, but when they roll and turn a corner, the little bad man living inside me whispers, "Toy trains! Yay! Toy trains!" 

I understand the appeal. GGD's Zephyr cars are awe-inspiring, and even Mike has made some pretty awesome stuff near that length. It's just...that, you know...they take 348 feet or so to turn around, lol...


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## Lee Willis

Oh Man. Your post makes a compelling argument for the set, and of course, it is UP, one of my favorites. I'm just hoping to avoid actually going over to 21" cars at all. the generator car IS cool. Frankly the flag car doesn't turn me on but it is pretty. The diner - I'd love one in 18".


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## laz57

BRAVO to Lionel and YUZ GUYZ that canrun these 21 inch cars on the layout!!!:smilie_daumenpos::appl:

I am just tickled to death to have PTC, Brians, Lionel 18inch cars along with the diner car and MTH flag car he sold me. My layout is only 15' x 16' and they look perfect for this space. Good Luck to YUZ GUYZ that have the room and radii to serve justice to these beautiful cars.


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## Guest

If you have the room on your layout, the 21" passenger cars are beautiful. With the correct power up front, it makes for a spectacular train.


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## HarborBelt1970

Nice to see such enthusiasm for this set and yes, I have gone for it too. Have always been a little mystified about why GGD/3rd Rail haven't done these cars but I am happy someone has in 3-rail.

One thing about the Lionel catalog (not nitpicking about this, just curious); on page 95 the diner is listed as "Overland" but the illustration is of "City of Los Angeles," which is a very different looking car. "Overland" in its excursion version has round tables inside, not rectangular ones, and fewer windows. (You can find a wealth of info about the UP excursion fleet here: https://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/historical_equipment/index.htm)

I wouldn't mind if Lionel was modeling "Overland" but I wonder which is actually going to be made?


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## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ...
> 
> One thing about the Lionel catalog (not nitpicking about this, just curious); on page 95 the diner is listed as "Overland" but the illustration is of "City of Los Angeles," which is a very different looking car. ...
> 
> I wouldn't mind if Lionel was modeling "Overland" but I wonder which is actually going to be made?


Send Lionel a note and see how they respond. Catalog pictures are known to be place-holders at times. But that also can be tricky in the BTO era we find ourselves in today, since we may not have the luxury of seeing the final product before committing to a purchase. We all have different thresholds too. For some folks, an unexpected variation could be a deal-breaker. For others, they'll just go with the flow.

Take the recent Lionel separate-sale ESE Hudsons, for example. Some were catalog'd with driver configurations that had a mix of silver and black wheels, but the final production run had them as all-silver. I was fine either way, but it was a surprise nonetheless.

David


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## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Send Lionel a note and see how they respond. Catalog pictures are known to be place-holders at times. But that also can be tricky in the BTO era we find ourselves in today, since we may not have the luxury of seeing the final product before committing to a purchase.
> David


Yeah, I think I will do what you say. I'm well aware of the issue and although as in your case it doesn't matter to me so much which car it is I'd prefer to know what I'm getting.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

As promised, I'm sharing the response I received from Lionel this morning regarding the length of the UP "flag" baggage car. Excellent response time on Lionel's part, by the way!!!

Word from Lionel's "talk to us" email contact is *both the flag car and power/generator car will be 18" in length*. All other cars in the train will be 21". 

This is gonna be one popular pre-order, but it's not BTO. So I wouldn't wait too long to get on your favorite dealer's pre-order list. I can easily see dealers not taking any more orders for the flag car after the initial pre-order deadline. Can anyone say, "guaranteed sell-out"? 

David


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## Traindiesel

Oh my…. now i'm thinking of getting the *Penn Central*l passenger set too! I already own a MTH 18" set, but the different painted cars are growing on me more than when I first looked at them. I've been wanting a PC 21" car set but was thinking more of silver matching streamliners like the MTH set. And I have a couple scale Penn Central GG1's, an EP-5 and Legacy E8's to pull them.


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## 86TA355SR

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Nice to see such enthusiasm for this set and yes, I have gone for it too. Have always been a little mystified about why GGD/3rd Rail haven't done these cars but I am happy someone has in 3-rail.
> 
> *Several of us had been lobbying 3rd Rail to produce this train. When Lionel announced it, I was taken completely by surprise. At the price point they're offering it, it'd be hard for 3rd Rail to compete-not saying that in a bad way, it is what it is. I think many will be very happy with the new Lionel UP version.*





Rocky Mountaineer said:


> ....Word from Lionel's "talk to us" email contact is *both the flag car and power/generator car will be 18" in length*. All other cars in the train will be 21".
> 
> *That's great news, Dave. Thank you for checking/sharing this. Never thought about it until you mentioned it.*
> 
> This is gonna be one popular pre-order, but it's not BTO. So I wouldn't wait too long to get on your favorite dealer's pre-order list. I can easily see dealers not taking any more orders for the flag car after the initial pre-order deadline. Can anyone say, "guaranteed sell-out"?
> 
> *Agreed. Even those who don't believe in pre-order should consider signing up this time. They'll go quick once delivered and people who didn't order see how spectacular this fantastic train/Flag car will appear. I can't wait to get mine already!*
> 
> David


Great info!


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## laz57

Thank you DAVE for the heads up on the flag baggage car. Is this "set in stone" about the flag car being 18 inches? Now I have to order the 2 pack and find someone who wants to buy an extra coach car.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

laz57 said:


> Thank you DAVE for the heads up on the flag baggage car. Is this "set in stone" about the flag car being 18 inches? Now I have to order the 2 pack and find someone who wants to buy an extra coach car.


All I can say right now is that's the word from Lionel's "talk to us" team. But since the flag and power/generator cars will be based on a baggage car design, and Mike Reagan has also stated that the AFT display cars (which are similarly based on a baggage car design) will also be 18"... it sounds as if Lionel will have new ABS tooling for baggage-style cars being 18".

So conceivably ANYTHING in the catalog based on a baggage car design may very well be 18" in length. 

I guess we won't know for SURE until we actually see what the Chinese workers build. However, there seems to be some consistency here from Lionel's "front office" which is a good indication that we'll see them built as 18" cars.

David


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## 86TA355SR

laz57 said:


> Now I have to order the 2 pack and find someone who wants to buy an extra coach car.


If the price is right, I would buy it.

Let me know via PM if you want.


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## WITZ 41

I'm excited to see the finished product. Fiscal discipline has me focused on a pretty narrow era and these fall outside of it. Otherwise, I think I would be in trouble. 

You're going to have to get cracking on that upper addition to your shop. Those cars will need a nice broad expanse to run on!


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## 86TA355SR

WITZ 41 said:


> ....You're going to have to get cracking on that upper addition to your shop. Those cars will need a nice broad expanse to run on!


Hopefully by the time they arrive I'll have the building done and some bench work/track down. It should look nice on 0-150!


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## 86TA355SR

Came across these photos today while searching for some other stuff on the hard drive....oh, who am I kidding...!?

Here's the MTH version:


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## rboatertoo

Sometimes I wonder if Lionel follows Mth......., instead of leading.


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## Guest

I have had the MTF version for many years. The doors are painted as Aaron has showed.


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## HarborBelt1970

*Update on excursion train cars*

I took David's (Rocky Mountaineer's) advice and contacted Lionel about which dining car they are going to model in the UP excursion train offerings. As I have said earlier in this thread, the 2016 Signature catalog text refers to the Overland diner but the illustration is of the City of Los Angeles diner. The two prototypes are very different inside and out.

I've now got the answer from Lionel via the "talk to us" facility; with apologies for the catalog discrepancy, it is that the Stationsounds diner will model the Overland. If you compare the photos below with the catalog illustration you will see that there is a marked difference. Here's the Overland as it is configured in recent (and I think current) service:

















The fine resource about UP's current heritage fleet also has this:

View attachment Overland_Summary.pdf


Hat's off to Lionel for providing this info, and promptly.


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## rogruth

I will never have this fine set of cars because I have 42" and 54" curves and that just won't work.Also I don't have enough legal tender either.
But it appears to be a beautiful train and I am glad to hear that Lionel will make it right.


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## 86TA355SR

HarborBelt,
A big thank you for the information! I had missed that _little_ detail in the catalog.

I need to also thank Dave for the car length Lionel information he provided. 

Sounds like we're getting a fantastic train! And, it's easier to buy it than making one-which I was prepared to do until this was announced.


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## 86TA355SR

It's hard to believe this thread is just shy of a year old!

For those who missed it, we got our wish-another UP Excursion car in the new 2017 catalog! Though not entirely accurate, it's a great sign to see Lionel offering more Excursion stuff.

I think I may modify the new "Fox River" theater car into an accurate, prototype UP version-Lionel's model is based on the CSX model.

Still hope to see more UP Excursion cars in the next few catalogs. A few 2 packs could easily be offered-they're several other coaches and domes that could be offered by simply changing the names.

And, for those who don't know, the 2016 sets are due this spring! Can't wait!


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## HarborBelt1970

Yes indeed, good news that there's another car of this kind in the new catalog and indeed that it is clear Lionel is making these cars.

As to when we will see them, I think that this is something of a moving target. The excursion car sets and StationSounds diner are not listed in the latest Lionel shipping schedule. And Charles Ro, who normally show expected dates of availability on their website, don't have any date for them at the moment. 

However, as I mentioned in another thread, Ryan K. of Lionel recently (20th December) made an effort to put to rest speculation about these and the next issue of the 21" passenger cars. I copy below what he said on the other forum, which at least indicates that the cars will ship this year:

"I'll chime in here and shed a little light on the mystery... We received our first tooling samples of the new cars for the UP, PRR, PC, AFT, and CSX sets just a short while ago. We're in the process of giving final comments on these samples back to the factory so that they can proceed to deco samples and then quickly on to production. With 17 new bodies to design and tool for these orders, tooling took a bit longer than either we or the factory would have liked, and the review process is taking a little longer as well, but I think when you see the samples and the final product you'll agree they are worth the extra wait! I hope to post some photos here next week to give you a good look (better than the Broadway flying past in a blur behind new G's at least!)

"Why aren't they on the schedule yet? Once we have cleared the samples for production, then we can set a production schedule and have a reasonable date to give you all. _*Until then, my most educated guess is that you will probably see these in Spring 2017. The Chinese New Year holiday and the factory's production schedule make pinning down a hard date just a little too difficult right now. We will likely ship these in at least two shipments, with the StationSounds diners following close behind the regular cars. Production numbers might demand a third shipment as well. Once they start coming, they'll come quickly.*_

"I think you'll be very happy with these cars, especially the lowered ride height, and we all look forward to getting these to you soon. And oh yes, there will be some more good 21" surprises to come in the next catalog!"

BTW, I can't see that any photos of the samples were posted anywhere by Lionel but if anyone else has seen them I'd be delighted to know where.


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## Guest

Thanks for the update, Andy.


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## 86TA355SR

Rumor is we may see the Excursion cars by/at the end of the year.


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## Lee Willis

Thanks for the update.

A long wait seems to be all we can expect anymore. 

This hobby _is_ for old men. Young kids don't have the patience to wait two years for their new toy.


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## HarborBelt1970

So far the only official word is that “these will be leaving China soon.” I suppose that means the excursion car sets have been made and are due for shipment. I would not bet on the related theater cars arriving at the same time although Charles Ro’s website shows expected availability 20 December. hwell:


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## Lee Willis

I;ve fallen for that "they'll be leaving China soon" line, or the even more promising "they are on the boat now"line before, and still seen it take months. There is always some new excuse.


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## Spence

I missed this post originally and just finished the whole thing. I certainly hope you guys get these soon. It's been a while.


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## Yellowstone Special

It's an amusing experience to scan through this thread, which was started in January, 2016. It's also amusing that these Union Pacific excursion cars have been available in HO and N scales for a long time now. But the Lionel ones in O haven't even left China yet.

Glad I'm not waiting for these, but my layout curves wouldn't accommodate them anyway. I only hope those of you who are waiting will have them before Christmas, which at this point looks possible, but unlikely.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

It seems like an eternity ago that Lionel "previewed" the UP excursion cars. But I guess it was really just 2+ years ago when the 2015 Vol2 catalog featured the UP FEF-3 steamer. During this time, I've come to the realization that 21" passenger cars aren't "all that" for me. So I'm sticking to the 18" cars -- they will "look" better on my new layout, and all I need to do is upgrade them with LED lighting whenever I get around to it.

I'm keeping my Atlas-O California Zephyr, Amtrak Zephyr, 3rd Rail El Capitan, and I may purchase a theatre car or two. But that's it for 21" passenger cars for me.

By the way... whenever these new Lionel 21" cars arrive, I think a bunch of them are gonna arrive in stores all at once.  Although they've been announced in several catalogs, they're all being manufactured together (with perhaps the exception of the theatre cars awaiting some kind of FCC sign-off). Not particularly good planning, but what else is new these days?

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Yellowstone Special said:


> ... I only hope those of you who are waiting will have them before Christmas, which at this point looks possible, but unlikely.


Nice time of the year to get smacked with MULTIPLE passenger trains, for those who ordered different sets. I got the impression that it's not just the UP Excursion cars that are shipping in December... but also ALL of the 21" sets that were catalog'd in 2016 and perhaps early 2017. So that could be quite an expensive hit on the credit card for some folks during Chrismastime.


----------



## 86TA355SR

Well, it was January 2016 when I started this thread, two months shy of two years ago!

"Shipping soon" is a blanket statement. Neither confirms or denies progress...

That's why I said "rumor" in my post. Who knows when they'll actually arrive. 

I've asked IF the cars are _already_ produced and if they've left China, but no answer yet. 

In a positive light, I know Lionel has worked to get these cars "right" and they're has been some manf issues. I'm glad they have made the effort, the final product will be what I judge/keep. If they're not as advertised, after the UP FEF joke that arrived, I'll return to dealer. I'll vote with my credit card as someone is fond of saying!

I also do not anticipate the theater car, just my opinion.


----------



## Yellowstone Special

86TA355SR said:


> Well, it was January 2016 when I started this thread, two months shy of two years ago!
> 
> "Shipping soon" is a blanket statement. Neither confirms or denies progress...
> 
> That's why I said "rumor" in my post. Who knows when they'll actually arrive.
> 
> I've asked IF the cars are _already_ produced and if they've left China, but no answer yet.
> 
> In a positive light, I know Lionel has worked to get these cars "right" and they're has been some manf issues. I'm glad they have made the effort, the final product will be what I judge/keep. If they're not as advertised, after the UP FEF joke that arrived, I'll return to dealer. I'll vote with my credit card as someone is fond of saying!
> 
> I also do not anticipate the theater car, just my opinion.


That's right, not last January, but almost TWO YEARS ago! This makes your thread even more amusing. 😀

Thanks for the correction, which I made in my post.


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## 86TA355SR

I've been all over the world, literally, the last few days. I should've just picked mine up at the factory! HAHA!

I waited over two years for my UP Harriman cars. They were worth the wait. I hope the Lionel Excursion cars are....


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Here's the answer given by Dave Olson over on the other forum about the shipment of the 21" cars: 

"_Some are on the water. Some still finishing up production. Most will make the year. Some may be January. I have no more info than that._"

Best I get from this is that it's generally positive.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Here's the answer given by Dave Olson over on the other forum about the shipment of the 21" cars:
> 
> "_Some are on the water. Some still finishing up production. Most will make the year. Some may be January. I have no more info than that._"
> 
> Best I get from this is that it's generally positive.


OK... so I'll be candid here. And I'm not gonna post this answer on "the other forum" 'cause it would only get deleted.  But this is EXACTLY the kind of answer I'd expect from Lionel. Wishy-washy at best. 

Now if Sunset Model's Scott Mann were giving us an answer, it would look something like this.

"The UP Excursion cars finished production on mm/dd/2017, and they shipped out of China on mm/dd/2017 (probably mid- to late-October-ish). We expect them here on the West coast the week of mm/dd/2017 (probably mid-December), and we'll ship them out to customers who've paid for their pre-orders before year-end.

As for the Broadway Limited, and Penn Central sets (and any other announced 21" passenger cars), those are shipping from China this month. And we'll likely turn them around for shipment to our customers shortly after the new year. etc... etc..."​
See the difference? Lionel's "I have no more info than that" comment is completely unacceptable, and illustrates the disconnect that I've always suspected exists between Lionel Stateside and their Chinese factory.

BTW, this is also not a consistent answer from what Lionel told me months ago, when I questioned if ALL the 21" cars would arrive ALL AT ONCE... as in not necessarily a good thing to have happen -- especially since different announcements were spread over multiple catalogs. And I was told it was more efficient for their factory to fill an entire container with ALL their 21" passenger cars in ONE shipment.

But now, it's suddenly a different tune... with some arriving next month (maybe), and others arriving early next year. So I guess the next question enthusiasts might have is, "WHICH cars show up this year vs. next year?" Right? But I guess Lionel doesn't really know that answer. Can you believe it? Well, the sad reality is, yes I can... and it's just what I expected they'd say right now.

Really unbelievable when you think about it. Just like we could never get a "real" answer as to whether Lionel's California Zephyr observation car would have a dome. Nobody at Lionel Stateside knew the answer until the cars arrived in NC. And that was a few years ago. I guess nothing has really changed.

David

P.S. In fairness to Dave at Lionel, I just read his FULL comments on shipping. And he does provides lots of detail relative to other products' shipping status (i.e., shipping from NC, shipping from China, "on the water", etc...). However, it's just the comment on 21" cars that is strangely lacking in detail.  But I guess he just doesn't have any more info at this time.


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## Guest

I'd like to know the delivery date stated in the contract between Lionel and their Chinese Factory. There must be a contract. There's no way this is all happening on a hand-shake!

I'd bet the contract calls for delivery of a container of 21" cars by December 31 and that is exactly when they will arrive. Not to us, but to Lionel. We'll see them in stores in January. 

That would explain statements by Lionel that they are due by the end of the year. Unfortunately, when we hear "End of the year" we interpret that to mean "In time for Christmas" because the end of the Model Railroad Year is really December 25. 

We want our new train running under the tree. This fact is probably of no consideration by the Factory because In China, only about one percent of people are Christians, so most people only know a few things about Christmas. Because of this, Christmas is only often celebrated in major cities. If you could even find a Christmas tree it probably wouldn't have a train under it.

I don't buy into the common excuse that Chinese Factories are mysterious and fickle and have no concern for delivery dates. It seems illogical that year after year the Chinese Factories would operate on a "We'll get to it when we get to it!" basis. 

In the summer of 2013 I ordered the Polar Express Streamliner which was due by the end of the year. It is a Christmas train and I planned to run it under the tree. I expected it by Christmas, I received it on January 2, 2014. The Chinese factory was blamed for the delay. In retrospect, It was probably my mistake to expect it by Christmas. I'll bet it arrived on time, as contracted, by Lionel during the last week of December 2013.

Since then, whenever I hear that a new train is due "By the end of the year" I plan to enjoy my new train as soon as it arrives...in January!


----------



## Norton

My last pre order from 3rd Rail took 5 years and came in at twice the expected price. 
I am not a UP guy but saw the prototypes at York. I think they will be worth the wait.
How long did it take for Atlas to produce the first run of CZ cars? Many years, no?

Pete


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## 86TA355SR

Pete, that's good to hear. I saw some of the pictures and they looked great. 

Harbor, Thanks for the post about Dave's comments, it's a very vague, broad statement. Covers a lot of product...

I'm looking forward to this set. GGD delivered a knock out set recently and I think Lionel will follow.


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## HarborBelt1970

86TA355SR said:


> I'm looking forward to this set. GGD delivered a knock out set recently and I think Lionel will follow.


One thing about which there is no doubt is that this issue of 21" ABS cars will be different from the earlier one from Lionel as (1) certain improvements like lowering the level of the body shell over the trucks and (2) Lionel finally producing cars modeled on ACF prototypes (rivets to count!) are already well documented.

To be brutally frank I'm less interested in when these will arrive than in whether they make good on Mike Reagan's claim of about 18 months ago that the second run of 21" cars will be "prototypical" whereas the first run was "generic." I know its a minority interest but I'll be keen to see whether the Excursion cars' interiors are closer to the real thing than the one piece moldings in the first run.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Latest word is... delivery of these cars has been pushed into Spring 2018. Confirmed by Lionel, and Charlie Ro's website already has been updated to indicate 4/10/2018. That should give folks more time to fill that piggy bank.

Seriously though, it does seem Lionel is now staggering delivery of these 21" passenger sets. I can only imagine the credit card bill some folks would have been looking at this month (around Christmastime no less), if Lionel's Chinese factory had delivered ALL the 21" passenger cars in one shipment!!! 

A couple of sets (Amtrak and SP Daylight) are still scheduled for Dec 2017, but most everything else in terms of 21" passenger cars is now slotted across multiple months in 1H2018. We shall see.....

When in doubt, keep an eye on Charlie Ro's website.


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## HarborBelt1970

I can't say I'm disappointed as the piggy bank factor certainly matters but this sort of thing does not make Lionel look good or inspire a lot of confidence/trust. I don't think that they can really know what their factory is doing - or, perhaps equally likely, they were spun some story that they just repeated when asked.


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## Guest

I don't want them that badly, I'm out.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I don't want then that badly, I'm out.


I don't blame you, Brian. I cancelled all my pre-orders for 21" sets months ago, except for the AFT SET and theatre-cars with WiFi cameras. For my new layout, the 18" cars will look better.

David


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## 86TA355SR

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I don't want then that badly, I'm out.


I'm starting to think the same way, Brian. _And, you guys know how much I've been looking forward to these cars._ I now have serious doubts they'll ever be produced to be quite honest. 

*IF* they arrive in APR '18, it'll be 2 1/2 yrs since announced.

The 'story' last month was they'd be here by year end ('17). I'm no math major, but that means the cars would've _already_ been produced and on the water. I seriously doubted that happened but kept it to myself.

This delay just shows Lionel _really_ has no control over their factories in China.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'm set on 18" passenger cars. While the 21" cars look impressive on the right layout, I have a 22x12 space to work with in my new house, and 21" cars are probably not going to do well in that kind of space.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ...
> 
> The 'story' last month was they'd be here by year end ('17). I'm no math major, but that means the cars would've _already_ been produced and on the water. I seriously doubted that happened but kept it to myself.
> 
> This delay just shows Lionel _really_ has no control over their factories in China.


Bingo!!! I've been saying this over on OGR for a few months now. We can't fight the math. It became pretty clear watching Atlas-O's shipping charts, that stuff tended to ship from NJ roughly 7-8 weeks after the container shipped from China. For Lionel products, I often noticed when I purchased something as soon as a dealer took delivery from Lionel, the Date-of-Manufacture (DOM) printed on the shipping carton often showed a date of anywhere between 2-3 months earlier.

So.... for Lionel to tell us just a few weeks ago that ALL these 21" passenger cars were gonna ship by year-end-2017 (with the exception of the WiFi cars w/camera), that was a lot of bunk. And I was highly suspicious all along. Yet I was told multiple times that ALL the passenger cars would ship in ONE container.

Now, here we are a week or two out from when these cars were due to arrive in NC, we find out only a couple of sets will make 2017. And the remainder will be sprinkled throughout 1H2018.

Do the math people. Lionel HAD to know (or at least have some sense of this information) weeks or months ago. This can't have just now come to light -- UNLESS Lionel Stateside truly has no clue what their Chinese factories are doing. And if that's true, that's gotta be very frustrating. 

Who knows... after working under those conditions for years, that "might" be one of the reasons Mike Reagan walked away almost a year ago. I have no inside knowledge whether that's true or not, BUT it's not that hard to connect the dots -- especially in hindsight given what we've been seeing in 2017.

David


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## Guest

Lionel had a good thing going with their ALUMINUM 18" passenger cars. They produced many beautiful sets that sold really well. Plastic 21", not so much. Looks like a big step backwards that most businesses could not afford.

I just no longer have a need for the UP Excursion set and to wait 2 1/2 years, NO.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Lionel had a good thing going with their ALUMINUM 18" passenger cars. They produced many beautiful sets that sold really well. Plastic 21", not so much. Looks like a big step backwards that most businesses could not afford.
> 
> ...


The thing I don't understand is why Lionel pushed the 21" cars so much, when their factories obviously weren't ready to produce them. 

Then there's the fact that most folks don't have a layout where these cars will look the best. My new layout is roughly 10x30, with a max curve size of O-101 on the outside loop. And even with that, I prefer 18" passenger cars.

I think the market sweet-spot for these are folks with basement empires or club members. And they'll buy them when the sets first hit the street. How large is that audience? If you're not part of that subset, who are you going to sell your cars to when you find they don't look great or operate well on your layout?

The secondary market is not gonna be kind to those sellers, as this is not likely to be a repeat of K-Line aluminum 21" passenger cars, which were in demand for YEARS after they were first delivered. I just don't see these Lionel 21" cars following in those footsteps, 'cause that ship has already sailed. The K-Line cars were in a league of their own at the time... and to some degree still are today, although GGD (3rd Rail) is admittedly top-dog for aluminum O-Scale passenger cars today. Atlas-O gave things a good try, but just couldn't execute. And their Zephyr cars, while priced attractively for the great detail on them, are not aluminum.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

On a somewhat related note to shipping delays, I also noticed Charlie Ro's website now indicates the Shays are expected in early January 2018. So delivery of those has slipped a bit too from the earlier estimate of a late November arrival. I guess the factories could only pump out so much product at the end of 2017. And it seems this year more than recent ones, that a bunch of product missed the big end-of-year deadline.


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## Traindiesel

I was anxious for this set to arrive when I ordered them, but since I won't be running for a while after moving I can wait. Even if they get pushed back further they'll still arrive before I have any track laid.

I'm waiting on a Shay too.


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## HarborBelt1970

I found out the latest about this by accident after getting wind of this Facebook broadcast by "Ryan and Dave":

https://www.facebook.com/Lione...s/10156987158558345/

They disclose that the UP Excursion cars as well as the AFT sets won't be arriving until mid-March 2018 on the last of three Lionel containers shipping the 21" cars. They say these cars are still in production and won't be leaving the factory until end Jan./early Feb.

This very belatedly answers the OP's question whether these cars were actually built and just awaiting shipment or were still in production.

The "Ryan and Dave Show" is a new initiative and deliberately amusing in an amateur way. It doesn't make up for Lionel's maddening QC issues but makes me feel a little less like they are Scrooge.


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## Lee Willis

In my case I am in the same boat as John - my layout space really isn't big enough to let 21" cars look good. 

But in addition, after all these years with 15" and 18" cars, the 21" cars just look too long to me. I know they are closer to real prototype dimensions, but that doesn't seem to matter. 18" cars look best to me. 

Besides, I already have a bunch of them and have no plans to scrap them and replace them just because there is a longer car available.


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## HarborBelt1970

So the latest in this interminable saga is the following posted on OGR yesterday by Dave Olson regarding the shipping status of the 21" passenger cars including the UP Excursion sets:

"Southern Pacific: Here
Amtrak: Here
NYC ESE #2: Here

Pennsy Broadway limited: On the water
Penn Central: On the water
CSX: On the water
AFT: On the water
UP Excursion: On the water
Conrail: On the water
Burlington Northern: On the water
ACL: To be built still

Of course the above doesn't include the Theater Cars or Full Dome cars as that tooling is still being made.

No point in asking when the ones on the water will be in because I just don't know. Thanks!"  :dunno:

Although I have given up thinking that the Excursion sets will arrive any time soon, I'll be interested to see reports on the first lots of these 21" cars and whether the proposed improvements such as lowering the bodies over the wheels have been made.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ...
> UP Excursion: On the water
> ...


Hhmmmm.... let's see now.... Charlie Ro's website shows an ETA of 4/10/2018 for the UP Excursion cars. So that's gotta be one heck of a very L-O-N-G boat ride from China to North Carolina!!!  Perhaps the ship is pulling into port in Hawaii for a 4- to 6-week vacation?  

David


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## Lee Willis

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Hhmmmm.... let's see now.... Charlie Ro's website shows an ETA of 4/10/2018 for the UP Excursion cars. So that's gotta be one heck of a very L-O-N-G boat ride from China to North Carolina!!!  Perhaps the ship is pulling into port in Hawaii for a 4- to 6-week vacation?
> 
> David


O perhaps someone is just, ah, well, stretching the truth might work as a good term here.


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## Guest

Lionel is giving new meaning to the phrase:"A slow boat to China".

Emile


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## Norton

I believe this run is supposed to include new "dynamic" (my word) couplers that couple close for the straights but stretch out on the curves. Anyone else remember this?
I also thought Lionel was going to make the trucks available separately so you could upgrade older cars like the ESE 1st run cars.
I have one 21" Lionel ESE car and a set of their 18" cars that I was hoping to upgrade.

Pete


----------



## Lee Willis

Norton said:


> I believe this run is supposed to include new "dynamic" (my word) couplers that couple close for the straights but stretch out on the curves. Anyone else remember this?
> I also thought Lionel was going to make the trucks available separately so you could upgrade older cars like the ESE 1st run cars.
> I have one 21" Lionel ESE car and a set of their 18" cars that I was hoping to upgrade.
> 
> Pete


I recall something about those couplers: Lionel had something like that as the tender to loco coupling on one big steamer a few years back. Ingenious and useful. I wondered why I didn't see it on others afterward. 

But the big problem here is that ingenious or not, problem is Lionel says it is going to do so much, and just keeps coming up with delays. Big dreams: little realization.


----------



## Fabforrest

That was on the milw S3 Northern. I have and it works great.


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## HarborBelt1970

Norton said:


> I believe this run is supposed to include new "dynamic" (my word) couplers that couple close for the straights but stretch out on the curves. Anyone else remember this?
> I also thought Lionel was going to make the trucks available separately so you could upgrade older cars like the ESE 1st run cars.
> I have one 21" Lionel ESE car and a set of their 18" cars that I was hoping to upgrade.
> 
> Pete


Norton, there are “kinematic” couplers on the existing 21” cars and (whatever exactly that word means) they work as you describe. That’s not a new feature. And yes, they were meant to create kits to upgrade the older cars’ trucks but that seems to have died the death.


----------



## 86TA355SR

I'm not convinced they've been produced & have shipped from China. Hope I'm wrong. I like being wrong, just don't tell my wife...


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> I'm not convinced they've been produced & have shipped from China. ...


I agree with you 1,000%.

Consider this... when I inquired early last year as to why Lionel intended to deliver ALL the 21" passenger cars in one shipment (i.e., they were gonna deliver them all in December according to an earlier version of the shipping schedule as well as Charlie Ro's website), I was told it was "more efficient to ship all the passenger cars in one container". Seriously, that was the answer I was given by a senior Lionel employee. :laugh:

Once I heard that, I knew he was just feeding me a line. Or he was just being naive and honestly believed what somebody else at Lionel told him. Either way, his credibility dropped a few notches. hwell:

Now we suddenly see the delivery of these 21" cars is being spread out across multiple months -- which is how I expected they would have been shipped all along... a few road-names at a time along with a ton of other product that would "fill the container".

It'll be interesting to see what the date-of-manufacture is for the 2 or 3 roadnames that are supposed to arrive at dealers any day now (i.e., SP, Amtrak and maybe NYC ESE). That info is typically printed on the outer shipping box for an item, and should give folks an idea of what to expect for the other road-names expected over the next several months.

And so the saga continues...

David


----------



## Traindiesel




----------



## mebb885

I'm Still Holding out hope they will arrive some day. I knew I should have gotten the SP ones. at least those are in NC now.


----------



## 86TA355SR

I've been thinking of this the last few days...

About a month ago, if I recall, we were told the cars hadn't been produced after confusion on an earlier Lionel statement. 

Now, they're 'on the water'...hmmmm...possible? I suppose but I'm having a hard time believing it.

Anybody heard which cars will be delivered? I haven't heard any specifics. 

I now the theater cars were delayed and won't be a part of this shipment.


----------



## HarborBelt1970

86TA355SR said:


> About a month ago, if I recall, we were told the cars hadn't been produced after confusion on an earlier Lionel statement.
> 
> Now, they're 'on the water'...hmmmm...possible? I suppose but I'm having a hard time believing it.
> 
> Anybody heard which cars will be delivered? I haven't heard any specifics.


Yeah, it was about a month ago (see post #80 above on 14 Dec.) that Ryan and Dave interviewed themselves on Facebook and said amongst other things that the UP cars would not even be leaving the factory until late Jan. or Feb. Saying that they are “on the water” now does not square with that; however I put it down to terminological inexactitude as in meaning they, or maybe some of them, are in the vicinity of being on board something that floats. 

Which cars will be delivered [as in now]? The three that have been listed are the SP, ESE #2 run and Amtrak (see post #82 above from 8 Jan.). Those are the ones Dave Olson describes as “here” meaning I think having actually traversed the water and indeed shipping from Lionel.

Of course on the other place someone’s started a thread earnestly asking for photos of delivered cars but there aren’t any yet and in fact not a single soul reports having received any of these cars. I guess being invisible is one of the improvements over the first run. :cheeky4:


----------



## Traindiesel

Maybe the factory making these cars is nearby the ship docks. So they may be loading up a container that's on a ship..... on the water.


----------



## HarborBelt1970

So here we are in February and the first installment of the second run of the ABS cars has arrived.  There are relatively few photos of these at this stage but for anyone interested there's a couple of threads over on the other place where a few images are gradually appearing: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/where-art-thou-newest-lionel-21-passenger-cars?page=1
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/new-lionel-21-car-ride-height-comparison

I confess I'm one of the people who agitated most to get them. 

And now a couple of things slightly bother me about these cars, which I would not mention except to the extent they might reflect on the UP Excursion sets:

1. There was a delay in getting these shipped from Lionel to dealers, which it appears might have been because the shipment from China was short of enough to fulfill every dealer order. So yet more Chinese factory problems - as if there weren't enough already. On the other hand what's been shipped appears to include the StationSounds diners, which were not originally expected to arrive with the 4 and 2-car sets.

2. Maybe more significant, the cars that have been photographed so far really don't look much different at all from the first run except that they appear slightly lower over the trucks. However (1) the car body style is basically the same ribbed/fluted one used in the ESE cars and the whole of the rest of the first run, and (2) the interiors are the same one-piece moulding in one solid color. So much for the inducement of more prototypical cars, inside and out, coming in this second run although that was given in what is now a bygone era when Mike R. was still around.

3. That said, the pre-production samples of the UP Excursion cars shown by Lionel at York last year, which somewhere earlier in this thread are pictured, were of cars reflecting UP's ACF-built passenger stock with proper side and roof detailing (roof rivets! :smilie_daumenpos. 

Anyway, as far as I can see there are at least two more months to go until the Excursion sets get here and only then will it be possible to tell whether they have been worth the wait.


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Sorry, the photos of the UP Excursion car samples are in a different thread so I have copied them here:









Looking at these with a wary eye, given Lionel's recent inability to deliver what they say they will, I see that only one car has the relevant roof detail but none of them is made with the ribbed/fluted panels used indiscriminately in the cars issued to date. Also they include the right UP diaphragms centered between cars rather than the full-width ones used in all the other 21" ABS cars I have seen.


----------



## Norton

This explains the NYC baggage cars in the new catalog. From a knowledgable poster on OGR (former NYC employee) these are in fact accurate for NYC being 70 foot ACF cars.


















Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Norton said:


> This explains the NYC baggage cars in the new catalog. From a knowledgable poster on OGR (former NYC employee) these are in fact accurate for NYC being 70 foot ACF cars.
> 
> ...


Actually I'm very confused about baggage car lengths on these new 21" passenger sets. Over on the other forum, somebody posted photos of what appears to be a baggage-style car that was similar in length to an observation car on the shelf below it. These were reportedly engineering samples. 

Upon further inspection of the photo in comparison to catalog illustrations, I deduced the engineering sample was the UP flag car -- based on the doors being closer to the middle of the car vs. typical baggage cars where the doors where closer to the ends of the car body.

In any event, it got me wondering if the UP flag car will actually be 21", while regular baggage cars will be 18" (since the catalogs do mention 18" baggage cars in a few places).

More importantly (for me anyway) is the length of the American Freedom Train display cars, because I prefer the 18" length. Mike Reagan once indicated they'd be based on regular baggage cars with a length of 18". But that photo of the UP flag car now has me wondering -- especially since the catalogs have a bevy of photos labeled 21" passenger cars for much of the American Freedom Train, including photos/illustrations of the AFT "display cars". 

I suppose none of this is all that critical -- just confusing in terms of what's actually gonna be produced.

I posted these observations over on the other forum yesterday, but my posts still haven't been approved by the Keystone Kop moderators. So as much as I enjoy chiming in with the community, I'm really losing interest fast with the quickly deteriorating moderation style over there. 

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Actually I'm very confused about baggage car lengths on these new 21" passenger sets. Over on the other forum, somebody posted photos of what appears to be a baggage-style car that was similar in length to an observation car on the shelf below it. These were reportedly engineering samples.
> 
> In any event, it got me wondering if the UP flag car will actually be 21", while regular baggage cars will be 18" (since the catalogs do mention 18" baggage cars in a few places).
> David


I thought that someone (not me) had established through Lionel's "Talk to Us" facility that the UP Excursion flag baggage car and power car will be 18" models, which if they are based on ACF-built cars would be accurate.

All of the ABS baggage cars I have seen to date have been 18" body length (not including the diaphragms but those add no more than 1/2" to the length). I would not expect the flag car to be longer. I also have the last version of the MTH flag baggage car and that's 18" body length too although I accept that's possibly not a guide as all the MTH UP passenger cars I have are the same length. Can't speak to the AFT cars as I have not researched them.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> I thought that someone (not me) had established through Lionel's "Talk to Us" facility that the UP Excursion flag baggage car and power car will be 18" models, which if they are based on ACF-built cars would be accurate.
> 
> All of the ABS baggage cars I have seen to date have been 18". I would not expect the flag car to be longer. ...


That's what I was expecting to see also , and I felt pretty comfortable that the information we had heard from Lionel was accurate UNTIL I saw this photo last night over on the other place:










Note the blue display card on the middle shelf that appears to read _*21" passenger car samples*_. 

Now I realize photos can be deceiving somewhat based on camera angle and such. But it sure appears to me that the engineering car on the middle shelf is as long (if not a shade longer) than the observation car below it. 

And if you look closely, the two doors are closer together (towards the middle of the car) than typical baggage cars with doors more toward both ends of the car. That prompted me to look through the catalogs last night, and that's when I realized the UP flag car illustration in 2016 Volume 1 has a similar look to the photo of the engineering sample in the above photo.

Again... not a super biggie nor show-stopper... just more of an impediment to getting the most accurate information BEFORE you purchase something. And that's not one of Lionel's strengths in recent years.

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Well, the plot certainly thickens. I don't know which of these two samples is the most intriguing but possibly it's the square-ended observation car, which I can't relate to any prototype Lionel has indicated it intends to model. It looks to me like a Pullman car rather than ACF but I'm no expert.

Reverting to the baggage car - and this might show how photos are deceptive - you would not have thought that the sample represents the flag baggage car presently in service, which is pictured below:









This is also the one the 2016 Lionel catalog said was to be modeled in the Excursion sets, #5769 (named Council Bluffs).

On the other hand this photo suggests a longer car length:









But this is not the same car; its #5779 (Promontory). 

However, I just checked the actual dimensions of both cars and they are the same length as the coaches and dome cars in the Excursion trains i.e. about 85' between the coupler faces. So the photo you've posted may well be of the intended flag baggage car at 21". Frankly I would not mind that at all but I agree that you'd think Lionel could have made it easier to be sure.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Well, the plot certainly thickens. ...
> 
> ...but I agree that you'd think Lionel could have made it easier to be sure.


This is NOT the first time we've experienced these kinds of discrepancies... nor is it the first time Lionel has given us conflicting information at various stages of a product's life cycle. And since such a l-o-o-o-n-g time has transpired regarding these cars (which haven't even arrived here yet) -- just look at this thread alone... it's over 2 years old now -- that just opens all kinds of doors for discrepancies to pop up seemingly out of nowhere.

It further reflects the growing gap between knowledge of product between Lionel Stateside and what actually gets manufactured in a land far, far away.  While we can piece together bits of information, we may very well not know the answer to many of these questions until products arrive in North Carolina... which is also when Lionel Stateside will probably know the real answer as well. 

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> This is NOT the first time we've experienced these kinds of discrepancies... It further reflects the growing gap between knowledge of product between Lionel Stateside and what actually gets manufactured in a land far, far away.  While we can piece together bits of information, we may very well not know the answer to many of these questions until products arrive in North Carolina... which is also when Lionel Stateside will probably know the real answer as well.
> 
> David


The road to H*ll is paved with good intentions. It was a good idea to model the Excursion cars, which no other 3rail supplier has done (not even 3rd Rail). It was also a good idea to branch into ACF-prototype cars, which have been the preserve of MTH (and mostly with what I now think are boring results). 

But the execution of this project has been startling in its, well, amateurish moments. Next time I'm in contact with Mike R. I think I'll ask him for the unauthorized history. Meanwhile, I await my sets with trepidation, hence the text highlighted in red above really struck home with me. :dunno:

All that said, the new StationSounds diners are great fun! :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I suppose none of this is all that critical -- just confusing in terms of what's actually gonna be produced.
> 
> *Lionel could've avoided all this simply stating in the catalog:
> Baggage Car - 18"
> All other cars are 21" *
> 
> I posted these observations over on the other forum yesterday, but my posts still haven't been approved by the Keystone Kop moderators. So as much as I enjoy chiming in with the community, I'm really losing interest fast with the quickly deteriorating moderation style over there.
> 
> David
> 
> *Well, I'm on the bad boy list too, so you'll have someone to talk with. *


I hope the Excursion cars are worth the wait. After two years of delays we may know something in the next few months. If April is planned delivery, they should be in production now and will ship soon, judging by the 'average' production to US delivery dates on previous product.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ... If April is planned delivery, they should be in production now and will ship soon, judging by the 'average' production to US delivery dates on previous product.


Aaron, I'd be curious to see what the manufacturing date is on the stuff that just arrived at Charlie Ro's. Folks have just starting getting the "first wave" of new 21" passenger cars from Charlie this week. I may order an Amtrak StationSounds Diner to go with the Atlas-O Amtrak Zephyrs I already have from a few years ago, so I'll see what's printed on the outer shipping box and let folks here know.

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

And of course, this discussion of baggage / flag car length being 18" or 21" will carry over to the American Freedom Train as well in spades with all the display cars. Will those display cars be 18" or 21"?  I was definitely told 18" early on by Lionel. But that was quite a while ago, and who knows what if any changes have occurred in production. :dunno: 

To add to the confusion, different catalogs have different captions for the same product illustrations. The original 2016 Signature Vol 1 catalog doesn't really specify the lengths of the AFT display cars, but the 2016 Vol 2 catalog does indicate 21" AFT 4-pack and 21" AFT 2-pack underneath the catalog illustrations of the display cars. Can Lionel make this any more confusing??? 

So will the American Freedom Train be largely composed of 21" cars or 18" cars?  This is all starting to unfortunately sound like a replay of Lionel's California Zephyr debacle several years ago, when we asked if the observation car was gonna have a dome. Nobody at Lionel Stateside could give us a straight answer, and we had to wait to see what ultimately arrived Stateside. As it turned out... even though the catalog incorrectly illustrated an observation car WITHOUT a dome, that's exactly how the car was manufactured. Of course, the prototype CZ observation cars had the dome. So as a result, some dealers STILL have these cars which they can't give away -- especially when Atlas-O did the train correctly. 

I just hope everybody will be happy with how these trains are ultimately delivered by Lionel's Chinese manufacturer -- as confusing as the roller coaster ride of anticipation happens to be along the way.

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> That's what I was expecting to see also , and I felt pretty comfortable that the information we had heard from Lionel was accurate UNTIL I saw this photo last night over on the other place:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David


David, 

I can't trace this photo over on the other place after looking at various reports of recent shows. Do you know where and when it was taken?

Andy


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Andy, I would assume by Lionel based on the trappings in the photo.


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## HarborBelt1970

As long as we are sharing photos from the dark side (I don't mean Lionel) these were recently and kindly posted there in response to some nagging from me. I would style these "low riders" as opposed to "high water" in terms of where the bodies sit over the trucks but that might have unfortunate connotations. Anyway, in that respect they are a clear improvement over the 1st issue 21" ABS cars:

































Note that although Lionel has used the same ribbed/fluted body sides and roofs as for the first run the diaphragms are different and matched to the respective prototypes. The UP Excursion cars will/should be different again as regards the main parts of the body shells as they are matching ACF cars.


----------



## Norton

The SP cars are another step backwards. While it would have nice if they had been able to color the flexible diaphragm sections to match the car, they could have at least color matched the plates on either side of the rubber like they did on both sets of 18" aluminum cars. Instead it appears they used the diaphragms from the ESE cars which in fact did look like this.

Lionel 18" car"









Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> David,
> 
> I can't trace this photo over on the other place after looking at various reports of recent shows. Do you know where and when it was taken?
> 
> Andy


Andy, the photo was posted on the other place in the thread titled, "Ryan and Dave New 2018 Catalogue - Passenger car questions". I got the impression it was from Lionel's booth either at York last year or the recent Big-E show last weekend.

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Norton said:


> The SP cars are another step backwards. While it would have nice if they had been able to color the flexible diaphragm sections to match the car, they could have at least color matched the plates on either side of the rubber like they did on both sets of 18" aluminum cars. Instead it appears they used the diaphragms from the ESE cars which in fact did look like this. Pete


This is one of those things where once it is pointed out to you it’s blindingly obvious and impossible not to focus on instead of anything else. You’re absolutely right; those look like ESE diaphragms and now I think the set-up is, er, second rate compared to the 18” cars. But happy to say I can look at those instead.


----------



## Norton

Last year I picked up a couple MTH SP cars hoping to make my Daylight train a bit longer. I also ordered a couple of pair of Lionel full width diaphragms. They didn't work with the MTH cars at all as they vary in height and width compared to the Lionel cars.
I did verify though that diaphragms are the same on both the 18" cars and 21" Lionel cars so you could replace them, not that you should have to.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

You guys and gals will get a kick out of this. Today I was re-organizing some files in my home-office, and I came across an old invoice from Charlie Ro when I had purchased a St.Regis Heisler in late 2016. Now for those of you who don't purchase from Charlie, he always sends an invoice / packing slip that shows the other open back-orders yet to ship on the same order number.

In this case, all my American Freedom Train passenger cars were listed as back-orders. And get this... the AFT "estimated ship date" when this packing slip was printed (on 11/27/2016) showed *12/10/2016*. 

Now tell me Lionel didn't know back then that the AFT cars wouldn't make that 12/10/2016 ship-date!!!  Heck, the darn cars wouldn't even be manufactured for another year later!!!  And now we're being told the AFT and UP Excursion cars are somewhere "on the water" with a new ETA of 4/10/2018.

Anybody feeling lucky??? 

David


----------



## Norton

HarborBelt1970 said:


> This is one of those things where once it is pointed out to you it’s blindingly obvious and impossible not to focus on instead of anything else. You’re absolutely right; those look like ESE diaphragms and now I think the set-up is, er, second rate compared to the 18” cars. But happy to say I can look at those instead.


I guess this is stuff only an SP modeler would notice. More pics of the new 21" SP cars have been posted on OGR. Many are experiencing the name board above the windows coming off. Also problems with plastic couplers not staying shut. 
What I didn't see until this picture is the cars are early Budd cars, not Pullman Standard that made up the early Daylights. 
While true in later years SP did source cars from both PS and Budd I have yet to find a picture of Daylight cars with a corregated roof.
Some cars did have name boards (correct term???) over the windows placed on top of the corregations indicating their Budd origins, but no sign the corregations extended over the roof in any photographs.
On PS cars there are no corregations where the name is printed but rather a channel.
Lionel got their 18" cars right using PS prototypes.
They also made more or less correct Budd cars for trains like the ESE but never ACF cars.
Now it appears they will limit production to Budd and ACF with no Pullman Standard in 21".

OK I think I have said in the past I like toy trains and scale models. Since I have been modeling SP for well over 50 years I revert to rivet counting on scale stuff.
If people are happy because the colors match thats fine but I was under the impression Lionel's excuse for going to plastic 21" cars meant they would be able to offer more prototypical offerings.

Generic cars along poor quality control can't be a good thing.










Pullman Standard with channel and smooth roof.











Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Norton said:


> ... More pics of the new 21" SP cars have been posted on OGR. Many are experiencing the name board above the windows coming off. Also problems with plastic couplers not staying shut.
> ...
> Now it appears they will limit production to Budd and ACF with no Pullman Standard in 21".
> 
> ...
> If people are happy because the colors match thats fine but I was under the impression Lionel's excuse for going to plastic 21" cars meant they would be able to offer more prototypical offerings.
> 
> ...


Maybe Lionel should provide everybody with a bag of plastic tie-wraps to prevent errant uncouplings while trains are in motion! 

Seriously though, I did see some of the photos posted over there, but didn't respond because my posts don't get approved if they convey a sense of humor or can be interpreted as negative in the ever-so-slightest way by the Keystone Kops.  But it does appear enough other folks are jumping in with their true experiences and telling it like it is. So that's good to see -- although it would be better if Lionel could just get past its quality problems. Perhaps even more concerning is the comment some folks have made indicating Lionel's initial response is... "Just take them back to your dealer for an exchange or full refund, because we don't have spare parts to address any of these issues now."  What's THAT all about? They go through the trouble of re-designing Mogul parts to correct the Legacy Mogul's drive train problem, but they don't have spare parts for passenger cars??? 

The thing I find so amazing here is all these quality issues continue to fly in the face of Lionel moving toward its BTO business model for high-end products. Or perhaps BTO is nothing more than some of said it was along -- namely a big marketing gimmick. It's pretty scary that Lionel expects folks to pre-order these items from catalog illustrations, and then during the manufacturing process we're taken down all kinds of paths regarding product features and such. THEN when the product is finally delivered after numerous delays, we see so many unpleasant surprises... whether it be feature-related or quality-related. Just doesn't make any sense, but we see it time and time again. 

I just received a Penn Central StationSounds diner that looks fine. And I'm glad to see those making a comeback. Early next week I should be receiving an Amtrak StationSounds diner that I plan to run with my Atlas-O Amtrak Zephyr train. So we'll see how Lionel's car fits alongside Atlas-O cars in the same train, and I'll report on my findings with a photo or two. The remaining Penn Central 21" cars aren't due in for another month or two, according to the Charles Ro website ETA's. But I plan to run the PC train behind my JLC Black GG-1... also in PC livery. And I already have a bag of plastic tie-wraps ready to go... just in case. 

Regarding Lionel migrating to ABS from aluminum construction... I always felt Lionel was feeding us a line with respect to getting away from generic passenger cars and providing more prototypical designs. That was all a big smoke-screen for cutting costs, and it seems we're seeing proof of that now. The big test will be what actually gets produced for the UP Excursion cars. I have no idea if what ultimately gets delivered will be prototypical UP Excursion cars or just generic cars painted in UP colors. But I'm sure those folks "in the know" about such things will comment when those cars hit the street in April or May (hopefully). Keepin' my fingers crossed for ya!!!

David


----------



## Norton

The good thing about the UP excursion cars are they are smooth side ACF cars and if they are the same as the pilot models should be pretty close. No letter boards required. Might have to be prepared for coupler problems though. Surprised they went to plastic couplers.

Pete


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## HarborBelt1970

I've seen the thread Norton refers to but was keeping my thoughts to myself until the problems noted were explained in greater detail. Well, they have been and for information you can see the results here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...ons?reply=77734316123742891#77734316123742891

(You have to allow for the fact that some of the discussion over there has disintegrated into a debate over SP colors, which basically happens any time there is a new issue of SP cars from anyone.)

I find all of this deeply disappointing and more to the point I am concerned that some of these issues, maybe in particular the plastic coupler problems and the factory assembly error of screwing through power supply wires, must be likely to be repeated in the 21" cars yet to be shipped, including the UP Excursion sets. 

I don't recall anything being said by Lionel about going over to plastic couplers. The fact that they were using "generic" Budd body details for the first run of these cars was only obvious when the first pictures of them were posted. I agree that that the Excursion cars will be different and not least because the pre-production samples show that these correspond to ACF bodies. 

The thing that most got to me, and I fear that it is right, is that Lionel have no spare parts for the current issue of 21" cars and won't take them in for warranty repairs so disappointed buyers are thrown back on a refund. I suppose that might be consistent (just) with Lionel's legal obligations as the seller of these products but, in any case, it is one more indication of a toxic relationship with the actual manufacturer of these cars, whoever that is. :smilie_daumenneg::smilie_daumenneg:


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## 86TA355SR

I must admit I 'bought into' the idea of ABS prototypical cars. The variety of possible cars were endless and I really thought Lionel made a huge leap forward. Now, we're seeing the opposite-generic cars. Disappointed.

I'm shocked Lionel is telling people to return new cars. I can understand it being a few months before parts arrive in the US. But this action suggests they aren't stocking parts _ever_ for the cars. 

Lionel's dealer network is going to feel the pain...


----------



## HarborBelt1970

86TA355SR said:


> I must admit I 'bought into' the idea of ABS prototypical cars. The variety of possible cars were endless and I really thought Lionel made a huge leap forward. Now, we're seeing the opposite-generic cars. Disappointed.
> 
> I'm shocked Lionel is telling people to return new cars. I can understand it being a few months before parts arrive in the US. But this action suggests they aren't stocking parts _ever_ for the cars.
> 
> Lionel's dealer network is going to feel the pain...


I don't want to dwell on this grim subject but for those passenger car enthusiasts who, like me, have unfulfilled orders for second run 21" ABS sets like the UP Excursion cars I thought I would report what's actually been said about Lionel's inability to remedy the defects in the few other sets that have arrived.

Over on the other forum there are detailed reports from four different people about the SP sets. One of them has been in contact with Lionel and he said:

_Lionel Service said they did not get any parts and don't expect to. The new passenger car couplers and trucks do not interchange with the older first-run 21' Passenger Cars. The only choice is to return the cars for a REFUND. Lionel Service will NOT be bringing the cars in on Warranty Service. They are what they are.

I was told to return the set for another .... and another... and ...
_
Later on, in answer to a question from Norton, he added this:

_Pete, I was told by Katie that there were no parts. If there are no parts, Lionel doesn't have a reason to bring the passenger cars in to be serviced, saving them repair time and two shipping costs, from you to them and back to you. Most of the repairs would be time-consuming cosmetic repairs on passengers cars that are large and expensive to ship. The average long-time train hobbyist should be capable of these repairs.

Maybe parts will one day be available, but I was told not to expect them._

So while Lionel have not said they'll never have parts, which if it was the case would be extraordinary, they may not - which is hardly the mark of a happy manufacturer/importer relationship. Having looked at the photos posted with the above I have not seen anything that I think it would be impossible for the well above "average" (in terms of experience and willingness to devote the time) modeler to deal with but the whole situation is nothing if not messy and confidence-destroying.

I'd guess that Lionel is as frustrated as their customers about the situation as they obviously did not set out to deliver something so problematic. But we are where we are and this does not auger well for the next couple of batches of these products.


----------



## Norton

I can somewhat understand Lionel not having car specific parts like painted car bodies. Going over the older parts lists the bodies are rarely available.
What isn't making sense is them not stocking trucks and couplers.
They specifically stated the new cars would sit lower and couple closer and if you wanted to update the older cars you could do that.
Lionel made a 4 car set of ESE cars without an observation or baggage car so those who had the earlier set could make a longer train. Now those who have both the new and older cars will have mixed height cars with no way to upgrade them.
Sort of bizzarre.

Pete


----------



## HarborBelt1970

*I am reliably informed that the UP Excursion Train sets are Stateside and will start arriving at dealers next week.*  This notwithstanding that Charles Ro's website still shows expected arrival as 10th April. My dealer is another one of the big ones. He's expecting to get his allotment soon.

To be honest, this news has spoiled my day. 

I don't know what to expect from a manufacturer who so badly botched at least the SP cars that have already arrived. With these coming in so shortly after that fiasco I am full of dread. Aside from that, I'll be back on the road when mine are shipped/arrive and will have to count on someone else to tell me what they look like. 

Paying anything for these cars seems an awful lot like a leap of faith/into the unknown.  Scr*w BTO; give me old-fashioned Built To Customer Satisfaction.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> *I am reliably informed that the UP Excursion Train sets are Stateside and will start arriving at dealers next week.*  This notwithstanding that Charles Ro's website still shows expected arrival as 10th April. My dealer is another one of the big ones. He's expecting to get his allotment soon.
> 
> To be honest, this news has spoiled my day.
> 
> I don't know what to expect from a manufacturer who so badly botched at least the SP cars that have already arrived. With these coming in so shortly after that fiasco I am full of dread. ...


I guess all we can do at this point is cross our fingers and hope for the best. I've been watching the thread over on the other forum, and we're now hearing multiple sources indicating the cars are Stateside and should be shipping to dealers next week. I heard the same from one of my LHS's as well. So there's a lot of consistency to what we're hearing.

Truth be told... I'm interested in the UP cars more out of curiosity, since I cancelled my UP order with Charlie Ro some months ago and replaced it with a 7-car Penn Central passenger set order from a more recent catalog. I figured, "How badly can Lionel screw that one up?"  Not to mention I was really enamored with a multi-color passenger car consist to go behind my JLC "blackjack" GG-1 in the same livery. 

I also have the American Freedom Train on order, which I'm expecting will mostly be 18" baggage car style "display cars". Again, either Lionel gets it right on those, or they completely bungle it big time. But in all honesty, I just don't see the latter happening -- so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Why... I don't know.

I guess the point that's SO disappointing though is NOBODY at Lionel seems to know with any certainty these days what's coming from China (or when) until the containers actually arrive in North Carolina.  I made this point politely over on the other forum last night as well. And since my account over there is still on full moderation status, the moderators deleted that part of my post... which is both sad and mean-spirited. Seems they just can't help snipping my posts like army intelligence offers did back in WWII when GI's wrote letters to their families back home!  Who the Keystone Kops are trying to protect by suppressing accurate observations of what's happening in today's toy train world -- aside from standing by Lionel (a forum sponsor "paying to play") -- is beyond me.  

But bottom line... folks are recognizing this stuff for what it is after seeing the same patterns over and over again. So if I'm no longer allowed to say it over there anymore, who are they kidding??? People are gonna see things said here, as well as more and more folks over there are starting to speak up as well -- finally realizing you can't hide the truth... and more folks are simply stating the obvious.

Look, I hope for everyone's sake that Lionel hits a grand slam with these UP Excursion Cars. I really do, because that's good news all around... although I'll admit a lot of folks are very disappointed with the latest SP cars, which reads like a litany of what NOT to do: namely, non-prototypical cars, shabby factory workmanship, and then telling customers to just return the cars to their dealers if they're not happy with them, since there are no "repairs" expected down the line.  Nice...

David


----------



## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I guess the point that's SO disappointing though is NOBODY at Lionel seems to know with any certainty these days what's coming from China (or when) until the containers actually arrive in North Carolina. ....
> 
> ....Look, I hope for everyone's sake that Lionel hits a grand slam with these UP Excursion Cars. I really do, because that's good news all around... although I'll admit a lot of folks are very disappointed with the latest SP cars, which reads like a litany of what NOT to do: namely, non-prototypical cars, shabby factory workmanship, and then telling customers to just return the cars to their dealers if they're not happy with them, since there are no "repairs" expected down the line.  Nice...
> 
> David


*^^^^THIS^^^^
*How can Lionel not know when THEIR product ships from China?

This proves they have no control over the factory there. 

I just have this image in my mind of some guy at NC being surprised new product has arrived at Lionel....

Anyhow, I'm hoping for the best on the Excursion cars. I'm a little concerned what's going to be in those orange boxes when they arrive. 

Like Harbor, I'll be patiently waiting what others report. 

Has anyone heard if *ALL* 7 cars will arrive at once?


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ...How can Lionel not know when THEIR product ships from China?
> 
> This proves they have no control over the factory there.
> 
> I just have this image in my mind of some guy at NC being surprised new product has arrived at Lionel....
> 
> ...


Exactly, Aaron. You'd think this part of the importer/manufacturer relationship should be fairly well-defined, right? I mean, the manufacturer sends the importer a shipping manifest containing SKU's in the shipment. And 6-8 weeks later, the container shows up in North Carolina with said product.

What are we missing? 

David

P.S. By the way... as an FYI, the two StationSounds Dining Cars that I just received earlier this week (Amtrak and Penn Central) had production dates of mid-November 2017. So why is it so difficult to convey that information to eager enthusiasts who are paying top dollar for products?


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> You'd think this part of the importer/manufacturer relationship should be fairly well-defined, right? I mean, the manufacturer sends the importer a shipping manifest containing SKU's in the shipment. And 6-8 weeks later, the container shows up in North Carolina with said product.
> 
> What are we missing?
> 
> P.S. ... the two StationSounds Dining Cars that I just received earlier this week (Amtrak and Penn Central) had production dates of mid-November 2017. So why is it so difficult to convey that information to eager enthusiasts who are paying top dollar for products?


"Missing" is any explanation, credible or otherwise, from Lionel of the source of their problems with the Chinese manufacturer, whether they relate to shipping or assembly. (I can say that here but I wouldn't try over on the other place as I'd expect to be censored.) It's remarkable how to date there has been absolutely no comment by either of the Lionel team who regularly post there about any of the issues identified with these cars. 

Maybe they think that there is nothing they can say that would mitigate the bad press they are getting. After all, inability or unwillingness to provide warranty service is a serious matter not only between Lionel and its customer base but between dealers and those customers. 

They may also be counting on a relatively low number of pre-orders being cancelled or returned. After all, many people have commented on the attractiveness of the SP cars and might be prepared to live with having to fix them themselves insofar as they can - meaning cosmetic repairs. (Also not trying to run them in reverse, which is another issue identified to date.) 

BTW, regarding the Nov. 2017 manufacturing date, looking back on my own post #82 above I am reminded that at the start of last month Dave Olson of Lionel said that all the second run cars bar ESE, SP and Amtrak were "on the water" but he could not say when they'd arrive. That appears to have been right as far as it went but then later on there was a Facebook video in which the manufacture and shipping dates given by him and Ryan K. were different. I give Lionel a charitable F+ for making clear what the real position is. I detect a serious lack of effort or even concern to keep what is probably the most dedicated part of their customer basis informed when it is asking for info.

I expect it will be at least another week to 10 days before reports on the Excursion cars start to filter out. Same couplers I imagine but different body shells and diaphragms - at any rate we'll see how they compare. Gulp   P.S. Charles Ro's website has updated the availability of these sets (and the AFT sets) to Feb. 28, which means that the first customer deliveries might be in the first week of March. That's still a month ahead of the original schedule. I might ordinarily say that's no bad thing; in this case it will help to put the likes of me out of our misery. 

BTW, it occurs to me that in China it's now *The Year of the Dog*. How very fitting. :smilie_auslachen:


----------



## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Exactly, Aaron. You'd think this part of the importer/manufacturer relationship should be fairly well-defined, right? I mean, the manufacturer sends the importer a shipping manifest containing SKU's in the shipment. And 6-8 weeks later, the container shows up in North Carolina with said product.
> 
> What are we missing? .....


*There's no explanation how Lionel missed the shipment date. Shipping is a well-defined process at this point-unless communication breaks down between sender and receiver. I expect the latter happened.
*
HarborBelt1970: _"Missing" is any explanation, credible or otherwise, from Lionel of the source of their problems with the Chinese manufacturer, whether they relate to shipping or assembly. (I can say that here but I wouldn't try over on the other place as I'd expect to be censored.) It's remarkable how to date there has been absolutely no comment by either of the Lionel team who regularly post there about any of the issues identified with these cars. 
_
*Well said, this sums it up! 

The lack of response seems to indicate Lionel doesn't know how to correct the issues and, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, are possibly working a course of action for the customer. At least that's what we're hoping!*

_Maybe they think that there is nothing they can say that would mitigate the bad press they are getting....

_*Look back over the last few years at some of the 'big misses' Lionel had. A few that quickly come to mind-wheel sets falling out of new Berks, Legacy speed control compatibility issues in locos, and Moguls with drive issues. Folks are tired of getting DOA product. I agree, there's nothing Lionel can say, but actions speak louder than words and fixing the QC issues would be a huge leap forward which may regain some trust in their product!*

_....After all, inability or unwillingness to provide warranty service is a serious matter not only between Lionel and its customer base but between dealers and those customers._ 

*We may have just reached the tip of the iceberg. IF we see the same with locomotives, it'll be hard for Lionel to sell all those nice Legacy engines. Who would buy one knowing there's no parts available for service, given the QC track record Lionel has had in the past?*

_....After all, many people have commented on the attractiveness of the SP cars and might be prepared to live with having to fix them themselves insofar as they can - meaning cosmetic repairs....
_
*I must say, I'm concerned about the UP cars since production must've been close to the same dates as SP. I hope the UP sets are first rate and no issues occur. However, if they're a mess but accurate cars, I'll buy up the dealer blow outs, change the car names and 2R a bunch of them. The dealers should have plenty available at that point!*

_.....I expect it will be at least another week to 10 days before reports on the Excursion cars start to filter out. Same couplers I imagine but different body shells and diaphragms - at any rate we'll see how they compare. Gulp   
_
*Let's hope for the best. I have high hopes given the sample models from York. With CR update, looks like we'll know soon what we're going to get!*

Harbor, 

Thank you for posting updates here, I logged out of the other site and don't intend to return. I wish them all the best.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

I don't know Mike Reagan, formerly of Lionel, aside from a casual conversation or two at York in Lionel's booth when he would be demo'ing product. But he really seemed to be a "stand up guy" and a great, enthusiastic champion of Lionel's products and customer service. I always admired Mike for his enthusiastic energy and devotion to the hobby. About a year ago, he departed the scene at Lionel rather quickly, and he's now working at TW Trainworx, a custom layout builder. 

So... after reading about so many Lionel product quality issues (particularly in the past year or so, but clearly the list has been growing for a couple of years now), I can't help but wonder if there was trouble lurking in paradise all along. And Mike simply got tired of dealing with the changing "corporate culture" at Lionel and the growing frustrations of working with overseas manufacturers. 

Take all of these musing for what they're worth, as I have absolutely NO inside knowledge -- aside from a sixth sense and just putting all these pieces together. But I wouldn't be surprised if a few of us here have had similar thoughts, right? 

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Aaron, 

Occasionally a nugget of information emerges over there and I just stumbled across something that may explain a lot about the warranty and 'no spare parts' issue. It's here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/it-s-time-to-hear-from-the-dealers

The thread's been closed today and for all I know it may be deleted later as it had deteriorated into something of a slanging match. I've actually copied the most interesting post (3rd from last), which told me something I did not know; Chinese manufacturers of finished products are not allowed to export replacement parts or sub-assemblies as separate items - probably to protect assembly line jobs in China. This forces the importers to buy extra stock to provide components for repair jobs in the country where the imports are sold. 

Apparently this export restriction has been in place for years and has affected lots of other train importers, including Atlas. 

So if Lionel bargained with a particular manufacturer to make and assemble the _entire_ 21" car including body shell, frame, interiors, trucks and couplers, they could not get those parts separately and would have to cannibalize surplus sets. Obviously they'd never have enough spares to remedy a defect affecting a whole shipment. 

The problem would be worse if whoever designed a basic item like a coupler assembly made a hash of the design or the manufacturer executed the design badly. In that case there would literally be no useful replacement parts available.

I infer that things like the electronic components, which I believe that Lionel designs itself, are probably manufactured separately and extra stock obtained for service purposes. 

Hardly surprising that this has come to head in this obviously problematic production run. 



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> So... after reading about so many Lionel product quality issues (particularly in the past year or so, but clearly the list has been growing for a couple of years now), I can't help but wonder if there was trouble lurking in paradise all along. And Mike [Reagan] simply got tired of dealing with the changing "corporate culture" at Lionel and the growing frustrations of working with overseas manufacturers.
> 
> . . . I wouldn't be surprised if a few of us here have had similar thoughts, right?
> 
> David


Yeah, count me in. I've never asked Mike as there's been no occasion to and until recently it seemed like water under the bridge. But for a guy who was a dedicated parts/repair executive, a Lionel policy of putting itself in a position where it could not service most parts of a big run of passenger cars sounds like a nightmare that he could do without. So could we.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ... The thread's been closed today and for all I know it may be deleted later as it had deteriorated into something of a slanging match. I've actually copied the most interesting post (3rd from last), which told me something I did not know; Chinese manufacturers of finished products are not allowed to export replacement parts or sub-assemblies as separate items - probably to protect assembly line jobs in China. This forces the importers to buy extra stock to provide components for repair jobs in the country where the imports are sold.
> 
> Apparently this export restriction has been in place for years and has affected lots of other train importers, including Atlas.
> 
> So if Lionel bargained with a particular manufacturer to make and assemble the _entire_ 21" car including body shell, frame, interiors, trucks and couplers, they could not get those parts separately and would have to cannibalize surplus sets. Obviously they'd never have enough spares to remedy a defect affecting a whole shipment.
> ...


Oh gee... and my post to that thread didn't even make the cut, since it's still sitting in the Keystone Kops' moderation queue awaiting for approval or rejection. Any bets on which way it'll go now that the thread has been closed?

On a more serious note, I do think there's some truth about restricting shipping ala-carte parts vs. entire products... since I was always under the impression that Lionel has been ordering "extra" BTO units all along which they would in turn break down for customer service parts and warranty work.

So that's yet another component the spreadsheet wizards and bean-counters didn't factor in when salivating over how wonderful overseas manufacturing was gonna be!

David


----------



## Norton

This begs the question, does Korea have the same restriction on parts? My guess, it doesn't. Mike was smart to keep at least one plant in Korea for part of his Premier line. 
Lionel is now stuck. Its my understanding that if they decide to move production, the dies stay in China. So much for saving money on labor. China now has these boys by the short hairs.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> ...
> 
> On a more serious note, I do think there's some truth about restricting shipping ala-carte parts vs. entire products... since I was always under the impression that Lionel has been ordering "extra" BTO units all along which they would in turn break down for customer service parts and warranty work.
> 
> ...


Then again... I was thinking about this a bit further this morning, and I'm looking at how Lionel is dealing with the Mogul drivetrain issue -- which is admittedly a very major problem. It sounds like "parts" will be shipped to the States, and consumers will need to send their Moguls to NC for warranty repair that involves parts replacement (i.e., both mechanical and electronic upgrades). So clearly, China isn't shipping complete locomotive products to Lionel in this case. 

Perhaps it's a case-by-case scenario? But at least for now, it seems the SP passenger car enthusiasts and their dealers will be left holding the bag, whereas the Mogul customers will get some relief. I say "for now" (regarding the passenger car situation), because I don't think we've seen the last shoe drop on this yet.

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ... P.S. Charles Ro's website has updated the availability of these sets (and the AFT sets) to Feb. 28, which means that the first customer deliveries might be in the first week of March.
> 
> ...


Indeed... should be quite a large shipment it seems, if the AFT cars (and perhaps others) are also arriving earlier than first expected. I guess I'll be getting my AFT cars the same time other folks are getting their UP Excursion cars. As for my Penn Central cars, Charlie's website now just indicates "out of stock - add to cart for backorder"... where the last I checked a few days ago, it stated "ETA 3/10/2018".  So we'll see what shows up in a week or two.

In any event... I'm glad to see these updates, since I'll now hold off participating in any President's Day sales!!! . We all have our limits. 

David


----------



## Yellowstone Special

You know, with what I've been reading and learning about Lionel's Union Pacific Excursion Train passenger cars, and how some have been waiting for over TWO YEARS to get them, I think I'm done with buying Lionel and maybe even O scale altogether.

Being a small operator with a layout that's completed and no room for anything else, I have enough reserve locomotives and rolling stock, to where I just simply don't need another thing.

So good luck to you guys who must purchase everything Lionel makes, because I think you're in for some rough times ahead. It'll be interesting to see just how much longer Lionel will last.


----------



## Craignor

What’s interesting is that the latest Lionel catalog will be the only Lionel catalog for 2018.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Craignor said:


> What’s interesting is that the latest Lionel catalog will be the only Lionel catalog for 2018.


That's what I thought might be the case due to it's size. But I could swear I heard Ryan K mention plans for a Volume 2 on the Trainworld Facebook Video about a week or two ago.

Did anybody else catch that?

David


----------



## Craignor

David,

One of the members of my club told me this Thursday night, he is Lionel dealer. This would make sense since in the latest catalog, they had the Christmas stuff in there. Normally, they don’t put the Christmas stuff in the first catalog. 



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> That's what I thought might be the case due to it's size. But I could swear I heard Ryan K mention plans for a Volume 2 on the Trainworld Facebook Video about a week or two ago.
> 
> Did anybody else catch that?
> 
> David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Craignor said:


> David,
> 
> One of the members of my club told me this Thursday night, he is Lionel dealer. This would make sense since in the latest catalog, they had the Christmas stuff in there. Normally, they don’t put the Christmas stuff in the first catalog.


Hi Craig,

I think your club member may have picked up some incorrect information along the way -- unless Lionel has somehow changed its position already (which is entirely possible albeit confusing).  While it's true Lionel consolidated multiple catalogs into this year's "Big Book" (i.e., Signature Catalog, Track & Power, Christmas, Holiday Novelties, American Flyer, etc...), I don't think that's necessarily an indicator of only ONE Lionel catalog for the ENTIRE 2018 calendar year.

Roughly two weeks ago, Trainworld hosted two Lionel reps at their NY store and posted a Facebook Video of the "live event". One of the reps was Ryan Kunkle, and within the first 2 minutes of the video Ken Bianco of Trainworld and Ryan K from Lionel mention outright that there will be a Volume 2 catalog released in the late-Summer / August timeframe. Here's the Trainworld Facebook video link for anybody who wants to listen in. Again, it's mentioned right at the start of the video...

https://www.facebook.com/TrainWorldLLC/videos/2039918549357280/

That's all I know for now. So until Summertime (or perhaps April York at least where we can ask Ryan directly), I guess we'll all be somewhat confused together. 

David


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## HarborBelt1970

*You read/saw it here first (or second)*

Lionel's Ryan K. has stuck his head over the castle wall and posted something on other forum about the remaining 21" cars. No, not an explanation of anything that's gone wrong in the manufacturing/shipping process although he adverts to having inspected some of the shipment. Instead there is a small number of cellphone camera photos of those that have now arrived at Lionel and are about to be shipped out to dealers.

This of course will answer no one's concerns about QC but at least it's a glimpse of the finished products and some idea of the quantity off them Lionel has had made. I chose three of the photos two of which show an unboxed flag baggage car and one AFT cars labelled as 21" in length - see below. And no, these are not ribbed/fluted Budd-style bodies as used on the much maligned SP cars but smooth sided ACF style instead:


----------



## laz57

Very nice UP baggage Car. It looks to me that it is 21 inches? I was told that the Baggage car along with another car was going to be 18 inches? I ordered the the 2 set hoping to replace my MTH 18 inch Flag Baggage car with this car. When was this changed?


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## HarborBelt1970

laz57 said:


> Very nice UP baggage Car. It looks to me that it is 21 inches? I was told that the Baggage car along with another car was going to be 18 inches? I ordered the the 2 set hoping to replace my MTH 18 inch Flag Baggage car with this car. When was this changed?


It is definitely 21". As I posted somewhere earlier in this thread, I checked and the prototypes of these particular baggage cars were full length (84') cars so 21" is scale for that or at least close to it/proportionate. 

I think that the AFT cars are also 21" judging by the one picture that's been posted. I was initially confused by this as one of the two cars in the box is clearly 18" but that must be the sound-equipped power car. Those (the Excursion set has one as well) were said by Lionel to be 18" cars.


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## laz57

HarborBelt1970 said:


> It is definitely 21". As I posted somewhere earlier in this thread, I checked and the prototypes of these particular baggage cars were full length (84') cars so 21" is scale for that or at least close to it/proportionate.
> 
> I think that the AFT cars are also 21" judging by the one picture that's been posted. I was initially confused by this as one of the two cars in the box is clearly 18" but that must be the sound-equipped power car. Those (the Excursion set has one as well) were said by Lionel to be 18" cars.


Thanks for the clarification on this. Now I guess I might have to see how these two cars look on my layout. I have 0-72 curves. I might have to purchase rest of the set if they look good?


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## Rocky Mountaineer

laz57 said:


> Very nice UP baggage Car. It looks to me that it is 21 inches? I was told that the Baggage car along with another car was going to be 18 inches? I ordered the the 2 set hoping to replace my MTH 18 inch Flag Baggage car with this car. When was this changed?


We were told lots of things by Lionel that didn't quite happen in real life. I posted earlier in one of these threads that the UP "flag" car definitely appeared to be 21" based on the early engineering samples -- both painted as well as the unpainted ones. So I was expecting that ever since I saw those photos, even though I was initially told by Lionel that the flag car was gonna be 18". In actuality though, the prototype for the UP Flag Car IS an 86' (give or take) passenger car in real life. So Lionel is correct to produce it as a 21" car, regardless of what we were told earlier -- although it would be nice if these things weren't always a surprise.

As for the AFT cars, Mike Reagan told me personally the display cars would be 18". So I'm hanging my hat on that info for now. HOWEVER, the AFT cars are being produced as part of Lionel's 21" passenger car "series". So that's gonna account for a lot of confusion in terms of box labeling -- and even captions of catalog illustrations -- since the Chinese factory isn't sensitive to this kind of stuff (or so it seems). So given that, I think we're gonna see a mix of 21" and 18" cars in the AFT, but the boxes will all be labeled 21" Passenger Cars.  Display cars will hopefully be 18" (true to the prototype-style baggage cars), while other cars in the AFT like the crew StationSounds car will likely be 21".

I guess we'll know within a week or so if these expectations are correct.

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

laz57 said:


> Thanks for the clarification on this. Now I guess I might have to see how these two cars look on my layout. I have 0-72 curves. I might have to purchase rest of the set if they look good?


It's gonna be a strictly personal preference with respect to how well 21" passenger cars appear on O-72 curves. My layout has O-102 on the outer mainline, so my Atlas-O CZ 21" cars look very reasonable on those curves. But I must say... when I switch the cars into an O-72 section of the layout, they WORK... but they don't look nearly as nice as on the much broader curves.

Having said that, I think Lionel rates these 21" cars for O-54.  But quite honestly, I can't even imagine running them on the O-54 curves of my layout, which is an upper-level Figure-8 that usually runs a logging train or an elevated subway train. 21" cars would look downright silly on those curves -- no matter what coupling mechanism Lionel is using that allows them to advertise O-54 minimums.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ...
> 
> Has anyone heard if *ALL* 7 cars will arrive at once?


Aaron, according to Ryan K's comments today, just about everything is shipping to dealers/distributors from NC except for the full dome and theatre cars. Looks like the second shipment of these 21" passenger cars included a bunch of roadnames too... UP, AFT, Penn Central, Pennsy, BN, CSX, etc.... And the SP, Amtrak and NYC ESE cars shipped out just a couple of weeks ago.

I'd love to see what Charlie Ro's warehouse is gonna look like next week. They're probably calling in some extra workers (as we speak) to coordinate activities next week for sorting out all this stuff and process orders. They do tend to turn this stuff around VERY quickly. Gonna be a wild, wild place for several days up there!!! 

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

laz57 said:


> I was told that the Baggage car along with another car was going to be 18 inches? I ordered the the 2 set hoping to replace my MTH 18 inch Flag Baggage car with this car. When was this changed?


Quite a few of us were told things early on in the promotion and development of these cars that have not been borne out by the finished products. In answer to the question "When was this changed?" I'd guess at the same point Mike Reagan left when it appears it was decided to cut back on the variety of cars being produced and the number of prototypical features. 

The thing that bothers me is that it was said that the second run would be more prototypical inside and out. What I have seen of the second run shows the same interior and lighting treatments as the first run. Maybe only a big deal to me but a disappointment - except that I'll be glad if my set doesn't derail/uncouple at the slightest bump.

The one thing that I think Lionel should be given much more credit for than it has is the sound features of the new cars. I have only heard the StationSounds diner in operation and it is great. No other manufacturer offers that kind of feature. We have not heard the power car yet but if it's of the same standard that will be great too.


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## 86TA355SR

Dave & Harbor,
Thanks for the intel! 

I like what I see of the flag car. 

Lionel created a lot of confusion on the length, first confirming it would be an 18" car and the finished model arrives as a 21"...I'm not sure how you don't know specific information about a product you designed. 

I'm just hoping, based on the above, we get what we ordered...


----------



## Lee Willis

Not for me. Not for me at all. I'm sticking with 18" cars.


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## laz57

I still am bummed out about this, but as DAVID stated we'll see in a week or so. Now I gotta find a good price on the rest of the cars or sell these? DAH!!!


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## 86TA355SR

laz57 said:


> I still am bummed out about this, but as DAVID stated we'll see in a week or so. Now I gotta find a good price on the rest of the cars or sell these? DAH!!!


Don't open them. Wait until others post pictures/evaluate them on the forums. Believe me, they'll be lots of posts.

THEN, if they're not as promised or QC issues, return to dealer for refund. Yeah, you eat the shipping but it's better than trying to sell something and deal with the hassle, or worse, no one wants them (ie, can't sell without taking a bath on them).

I do this with every new release. :rippedhand:


----------



## laz57

86TA355SR said:


> Don't open them. Wait until others post pictures/evaluate them on the forums. Believe me, they'll be lots of posts.
> 
> THEN, if they're not as promised or QC issues, return to dealer for refund. Yeah, you eat the shipping but it's better than trying to sell something and deal with the hassle, or worse, no one wants them (ie, can't sell without taking a bath on them).
> 
> I do this with every new release. :rippedhand:


Something to consider thanks 86.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> Don't open them. Wait until others post pictures/evaluate them on the forums. Believe me, they'll be lots of posts.
> 
> THEN, if they're not as promised or QC issues, return to dealer for refund. ....


That's EXACTLY what I did with the Lionel Legacy Moguls a few months ago. I had planned to double-head two of them for a milk car train... which by the way those milk cars are on another looooong journey with overseas manufacturing -- almost as bad as the UP Excursion Cars.  The Milk Cars are reportedly being made in Romania, but we haven't really heard any significant details explaining the big delay. 

In any event, I heard about all the problems with the Moguls, shipped both of mine back completely unopened (which is the only way the dealer would have allowed me to return them), and I never looked back. In fact as luck would have it, Grzyboski Trains had two of the older TMCC Moguls from a big estate collection he was selling. So everything worked out. Those TMCC Moguls are quite nice, and I can live with the 2-chuffs per revolution just fine. Some of those TMCC locomotives can be a more solid product than the latest stuff coming out of the Chinese factories nowadays. 

Best of luck on your adventure with the UP Excursion Cars. I'm hoping for smooth sailing with the AFT cars, but I see somebody has already pointed out that the display car windows might not be "square" per the prototype, but rather the viewer thought they looked rectangular in the snapshot photo.  Could also be the angle the photograph was taken. And even if they are slightly rectangular vs. purely square, I don't think that would be a big deal-breaker for me. But this stuff just never ends!!!

David


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## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> ...Best of luck on your adventure with the UP Excursion Cars....
> David


Thanks David, I'm hoping the best for you also. We'll know soon!


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

I wonder if any of the dealers attending the Allentown ATMA train show this weekend will have any of the new 21" passenger cars. I know Charlie Ro's website has an updated ETA of 2/28, but I'm thinking Nicholas Smith Trains, Grzyboski Trains, JusTrains of Delaware, Trains and Things, or even Pete Costa might possibly have something for us to see first-hand at the show. We shall see.

David


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## 86TA355SR

If they do, please take a lot of pictures for us!

Thanks!


----------



## laz57

I'll be on the look out too for these cars. I really want to check them out.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Sorry to say there were no Allentown sightings of the newest release of Lionel's 21" passenger cars that reportedly shipped from Lionel this week. The only dealer who had some 21" passenger cars was Pete Costa, and he had 7-car sets of the Amtrak and Southern Pacific that shipped earlier in February. And there's been plenty of photos of the SP problems, so I didn't grab another picture of them.

So I guess we'll need to wait until later this week or early next week before the reports and photos come trickling in for the UP, AFT, and others....

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Sorry to say there were no Allentown sightings of the newest release of Lionel's 21" passenger cars that reportedly shipped from Lionel this week . . .
> 
> So I guess we'll need to wait until later this week or early next week before the reports and photos come trickling in for the UP, AFT, and others....
> 
> David


I thought that would be the case. I know that the large dealer I ordered mine from has not had his shipment in yet. 

Assuming that the latest sets of cars have shipped from Lionel, it seems likely that they won't be at dealers until next week sometime and then not in the hands of buyers before next weekend or the week after.

The first shipment of the new issue cars seemed to get hung up in processing somewhere along the line because it was nearly two weeks between it arriving at Lionel and reaching dealers. I understood that some dealer deliveries were short and so I infer Lionel had to allocate stock among them, which might account for the extra time. 

Anyway when they arrive there should be no shortage of UP Excursion and AFT photos.


----------



## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> .... And there's been plenty of photos of the SP problems, so I didn't grab another picture of them.
> 
> So I guess we'll need to wait until later this week or early next week before the reports and photos come trickling in for the UP, AFT, and others....
> 
> David


Not just the SP cars, the Amtrak cars have their share of issues also. Chipped paint, coupler issues, damage to fluting. 

A buddy sent his whole SP set back for refund. 

I'm trying not to be concerned about the UP cars.... 

Expecting two weeks before Excursion cars are delivered. I'm hopeful but worried about the QC issue. My buddy may not be the only one returning cars.

Let's hope for the best!


----------



## seayakbill

Seems with the magnitude of Lionel's out of the box issues and within one year warranty repairs the bottom line for Lionel's P&L statement is taking a big hit. The bean counters at Guggenheim Capitol Management con't be to happy.

Bill


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Well, the first reports on/photos of the UP Excursion cars as delivered have emerged. The thread on OGR is here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...and-83006-arrived-see-pictures-share-pictures

It was closed to new posts within a few hours when someone started taking both OGR and CTT to task for not commenting on Lionel’s QC issues. 

The same OP who chronicled all his difficulties with the 21” SP cars has posted these photos and some others. Generally I would say that the bodywork of these cars looks pretty good but there are QC issues reported concerning assembly (loose trucks/couplers) and smudged paint. 

Anyway I am posting a selection of the photos here in case the OGR thread gets taken down:

































































I don’t expect to see my sets until this time next week but I hope anyone who gets the UP or AFT sets meanwhile posts comments here. At this point I am hoping that any assembly defects I find on opening the boxes will be things I can fix myself.


----------



## Lee Willis

Thanks. The windows windows look pretty good, but frankly the cars will only look really good when the interiors seats and all are painted, with some figures in place. 

Assuming the cars are designed so they do go together well, any assembly defects ought to be correctable by yourself. That seems to me much the better idea if you really want a set. I've sort of given up on Lionel ever fixing anything (right).


----------



## Jeff T

Here's the thread on OGR, already locked...

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...and-83006-arrived-see-pictures-share-pictures

Don't you dare bash a sponsor!!


----------



## Craignor

The beauty of MTF is as long as the thread stays civil, there will be no moderation or locking.


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Well, la dee dah. These cars have been available in HO and N scales for years. 

The genuine nonsense that those of you who ordered these from Lionel have gone through is truly absurd and ridiculous.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Well, the first reports on/photos of the UP Excursion cars as delivered have emerged. The thread on OGR is here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...and-83006-arrived-see-pictures-share-pictures
> 
> It was closed to new posts within a few hours when someone started taking both OGR and CTT to task for not commenting on Lionel’s QC issues.
> 
> ...



Yes, I participated on that thread over there, and was wondering how long the thread could stay afloat -- especially after the request for OGR and CTT to step in and comment.  There was a lot of good information in the thread, so I'm glad it didn't get deleted altogether -- at least as of the time I'm posting this here.

While several posts were understandably critical of Lionel's QC problems right now, I think the post that got the thread locked was the one wondering when/if OGR and CTT magazines would call Lionel out for these shoddy products -- perhaps in a magazine review, for example.

Generally speaking, I can't recall seeing a "review" in either magazine these days that reports on a "need for improvement" regarding new products. Just isn't done anymore. These reviews tend to highlight everything that's good with a summary recommendation to always buy whatever is being reviewed.  Whereas magazines in other industries (like home audio/video products) tend to provide more comprehensive and objective reviews that call out both the PRO's and CON's of a product, and then subsequently rate the product on a scale of 1 to 5 stars.

In our industry, the magazine reviews always result in what would be the equivalent of a 5-star review -- largely to keep the sponsors/advertisers happy, as well as to generate this positive-aura outlook that the hobby is healthy, life is good in toy train land, and everybody should go out and buy these "great" products. :dunno:

I fully understand the reluctance to give a sponsor's product a 2-star (out of a possible 5-star) rating, when that sponsor is handing over a handsome check every month. But then again, the viral nature of information flow on the Internet these days tends to keep reality in check anyway. So the truth comes out in the end.

While I don't expect either magazine to "call out" a sponsor on an online forum thread -- at least not until they've thoroughly reviewed the product in-house (and even then it's questionable whether they'd call out a problem publicly) -- I also hate to see good discussions cut off or discouraged. When that thread over there was locked, mention was made that OGR received requests to close the thread. Now whether those requests came from Lionel directly or some Lionel enthusiast(s) forever wearing blinders, it wasn't clear. Either way, we'll get an accurate read on these products in the next few weeks regardless.

I noticed some significant Charlie Ro pending-charges dated 2/28 on my charge-card, so I suspect that is related to my AFT and PC passenger cars. But I haven't received any FedEx alert messages yet. And that's to be expected given the intense Nor'Easter hitting the Northeast portion of the country today -- with Massachusetts and parts of New England being right in the bulls-eye of this storm.

So I'll probably have something to report mid- to late next week. I guess I was lucky with my Amtrak StationSounds diner that arrived a couple of weeks ago, as I've encountered no issues with my copy and have only had good things to say about it.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the same will be true for the AFT and PC cars.  Stay tuned...

David


----------



## Volphin

All I have to say is WOW... those interiors are kinda bland.


----------



## Norton

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Well, the first reports on/photos of the UP Excursion cars as delivered have emerged. The thread on OGR is here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...and-83006-arrived-see-pictures-share-pictures
> 
> It was closed to new posts within a few hours when someone started taking both OGR and CTT to task for not commenting on Lionel’s QC issues.


I would suggest everyone read the thread before its deleted. There was a post regarding the fact that Lionel's holding company directed Howard Hitchcock to reduce costs by 20% in 2017.
I am familiar with the source its from someone with pretty reliable inside information, though not a Lionel employee.

There have been suspicions over the last years about the "bean counters taking over". This supports this idea and might explain many of the QC issues and well as key employees departing.

Pete


----------



## Craignor

We may want to email the posters on the locked thread that there is a place to continue the discussion without moderation: MTF!


----------



## Lee Willis

Norton said:


> I would suggest everyone read the thread before its deleted. There was a post regarding the fact that Lionel's holding company directed Howard Hitchcock to reduce costs by 20% in 2017.
> I am familiar with the source its from someone with pretty reliable inside information, though not a Lionel employee.
> 
> There have been suspicions over the last years about the "bean counters taking over". This supports this idea and might explain many of the QC issues and well as key employees departing.
> 
> Pete


That is correct. Why I worry.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Norton said:


> I would suggest everyone read the thread before its deleted. There was a post regarding the fact that Lionel's holding company directed Howard Hitchcock to reduce costs by 20% in 2017.
> ...


And I doubt Howard and other executives are taking a 20% hit in their MBO's this year to achieve those cost savings.  In fact, they'll probably INCREASE their bonus when they achieve these reported cost reductions in other parts of the company.


David


----------



## Lee Willis

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> And I doubt Howard and other executives are taking a 20% hit in their MBO's this year to achieve those cost savings.  In fact, they'll probably INCREASE their bonus when they achieve these reported cost reductions in other parts of the company.
> 
> 
> David


That is what a lot of executives I have met - and the type I despise - do. The sign on board, do the old "re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic" routine, cuttings costs, while the ship sinks. But until it does they have a cushy job and draw good bonuses.


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Lee Willis said:


> That is what a lot of executives I have met - and the type I despise - do. The sign on board, do the old "re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic" routine, cuttings costs, while the ship sinks. But until it does they have a cushy job and draw good bonuses.


Which makes one wonder how much longer Lionel will last under this kind of misguided "leadership."


----------



## Jeff T

Yellowstone Special said:


> Which makes one wonder how much longer Lionel will last under this kind of misguided "leadership."


I've always tried to stay positive about these things, but they really are turning into a nightmare.


----------



## seayakbill

For the price for these very top of the line passenger cars I would have expected a much more WOW factor.

Bill


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

seayakbill said:


> For the price for these very top of the line passenger cars I would have expected a much more WOW factor.
> 
> Bill


I really don't know what to think of Lionel's adventures into passenger car land lately. On one hand, the StationSounds diners are quite nice and are real crowd-pleasers for folks of all ages. So to have them back now is certainly appreciated, and they've been very well integrated into the Legacy system. But then again, they aren't exactly new technology per se. They were considered "leading edge" in the 2000's, and then they went on an almost 10-year hiatus until 2017's offerings. Nonetheless, we'll definitely take what we can get nowadays -- even if it's a bit of deja vu all over again.

Candidly speaking, Lionel's entire move to ABS passenger cars was much more about cost-cutting than anything else. The hype about roadname specific detailed exteriors and interiors was just a big smokescreen. And the latest round of passenger cars seems to bear that out in spades. It's tough to be WOW'd, when we've been forced to accept ABS instead of the venerable construction of yesteryear's hefty, aluminum passenger cars. And it's tough to be WOW'd by passenger cars absent of passengers, which are practically one step closer to the post-war cars with window silhouettes. In fact, if Lionel's executive team could pull it off, they'd probably offer us window silhouetted, scale-length passenger cars... and tell as how easy it is to purchase an after-market kit to convert the cars to the detailed interiors we had 10-12 years ago.  

If you really want WOW-factor for passenger cars, I'd say check out the fellow who has a small table front-and-center in the Orange Hall at York. Can't recall his name, but he has done STUNNING work with passenger car interiors -- especially dining cars where passengers dine to first-class candlelight with table settings. All lit with tiny LED's. Now THAT's what I'd call WOW-factor, but I don't think we'd see that anytime soon from today's toy train importers. And if we did, they'd price the most basic coaches at $500 each. 

David


----------



## Norton

That would be Jack Pierce who also adds the LEDs to vehicles.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Norton said:


> That would be Jack Pierce who also adds the LEDs to vehicles.
> 
> Pete


Thanks, Pete!!!


----------



## Norton

Jack's use of fiber optics to make candles on dining car tables is over the top. 

Pete


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I really don't know what to think of Lionel's adventures into passenger car land lately. On one hand, the StationSounds diners are quite nice and are real crowd-pleasers for folks of all ages. So to have them back now is certainly appreciated, and they've been very well integrated into the Legacy system. But then again, they aren't exactly new technology per se. They were considered "leading edge" in the 2000's, and then they went on an almost 10-year hiatus until 2017's offerings. Nonetheless, we'll definitely take what we can get nowadays -- even if it's a bit of deja vu all over again.
> 
> Candidly speaking, Lionel's entire move to ABS passenger cars was much more about cost-cutting than anything else. The hype about roadname specific detailed exteriors and interiors was just a big smokescreen. And the latest round of passenger cars seems to bear that out in spades.
> 
> If you really want WOW-factor for passenger cars, I'd say check out the fellow who has a small table front-and-center in the Orange Hall at York. Can't recall his name, but he has done STUNNING work with passenger car interiors -- especially dining cars where passengers dine to first-class candlelight with table settings. All lit with tiny LED's. Now THAT's what I'd call WOW-factor, but I don't think we'd see that anytime soon from today's toy train importers. And if we did, they'd price the most basic coaches at $500 each.
> 
> David


1. My UP Excursion sets have yet to be shipped so I am holding off any detailed comment until I actually see them. But it's as plain as it could be from the various explanations Lionel gave for the delay in manufacture of the second run ABS cars and the defects ID'd so far that there has been some major manufacturing problem with them.

Is cost cutting the reason? I think the odds are it is although I am not sure that the whole exercise started out that way - or that the originally advertised reasons for going over to ABS were just a load of blarney. 

The plans for these 2nd run cars were different from the first run at an early stage even before the height of the first run car bodies over their trucks came in for criticism. At an even earlier stage than that, Mike Reagan said that the second run would be more "prototypical" than the first inside and out, then he exited Lionel for reasons at least partly connected with manufacturing issues, followed by reports from the remaining Lionel staff that the factory was having problems producing cars to altered designs and ultimately things started to arrive with obvious assembly and design execution faults. 

BTW, I have monitored the street/dealer price of Lionel and MTH passenger cars of the larger/Premier category over some years and allowing for inflation they are not much pricier than in the era of aluminum cars. The sacrifice has been in terms of quality and using standard parts that were probably designed significantly to reduce assembly time. Unfortunately neither the parts nor the assembly have been of a fine or even very good standard.

2. However, I think that the Legacy StationSounds diners are a significant improvement over the TMCC versions including a much greater range of sound effects and better sound fidelity. Considering the fuss that Lionel made over the alleged high cost of providing engine/railroad specific crew talk in Legacy engines it surprises me that they went to such lengths to improve these models. My thinking is that the development of these cars got in under the wire before the cost constraints took hold. Anyway Lionel designs the sound modules themselves although I assume they are built by a Chinese supplier.

3. Norton has already commented on Jack P.'s over the top lighting effects, which I agree with as the LED candles look good only if you always run heavyweight cars in the dark! I model passenger streamliners and I confess I have stuck a lot of extra lighting features in them. I'd never expect the main O gauge manufacturers to produce features like this. I forget what Jack P. charges per car to do his work but he only ever took on a limited number of commissions as the work involved in disassembling the older cars is considerable to say nothing of installing the fiber optics and lighting power circuits.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Guys,

I don't blame all the Lionel folks here in the States for what's going on. I do hold the executive team responsible for poor decisions and general lack of supervision for overseas production though. But the two guys who took over Mike Reagan's PR role as the "face of Lionel" for the company's long-time enthusiasts have gotta be really taking it hard. They do the best they can trying to fill Mike's shoes, and then containers arrive from overseas with all kinds of quality problems -- further amplifying the fact that there's a growing gap between the high expectations set at catalog time vs. the harsh reality of Lionel apparently having little or no control over their manufacturing operations. I can only imagine what problems may yet to be encountered with the "missing in action" Milk cars, reportedly being manufactured in Romania. While it's much too early to judge things on the Milk Car front, the production delays are uncomfortably similar to what happened with the 21" passenger cars. At the end of the day, we all draw our own conclusions. But I think it's fairly safe to conclude that Lionel has absolutely no control of the products being made today at their overseas facilities.

I realize this thread is focused on the UP Excursion Cars (and their associated delays), but I can't help but wince a bit when I think about many of the items catalog'd in 2017 Volume 2 (i.e., the new F3's, Tanktrain items, etc...) that haven't even been added to Lionel's online shipping schedule by March 2018. Are these 2017Vol2 products even in production yet? If they are to arrive in Spring/Summer 2018, then they better darn well be in production NOW or the next few weeks... since 1Q2018 is already almost over in 3 weeks. And then we're looking at the usual 6- to 7-week shipping time before stuff shows up in NC.

Just thinking... it's sad if these passenger cars will represent just the tip of the proverbial iceberg with respect to ongoing QC problems in overseas factory facilities that just aren't making the cut these days. 

David


----------



## 86TA355SR

I'm awaiting my UP cars to arrive before I pass judgement.

As for accuracy, I like what I see. The domes look fantastic IMO. So does the blunt end observation. I expected the wrong trucks and Lionel delivered.

I did a quick YT search and no videos yet. Curious how the generator/diner sound (?). I won't use the sound much after the initial run.

I doubt we'll see anymore UP Excursion cars as I had hoped for after the initial run. Honestly, at this point, I'm just happy the cars have been produced.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ... Curious how the generator/diner sound (?). I won't use the sound much after the initial run.
> ...


Aaron, I think most folks will be happy with these IF they can get around the QC issues. I have 12+ AFT cars due to arrive, and I'm somewhat anxious if I'll encounter any problems with trucks falling off the car bodies or problems with fit/finish... like some folks with the SP and UP cars did. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Somebody posted a quickie video of the UP generator car over on the other forum. It's nowhere near the sound qualities and feature-set of the StationSounds diner. From what I heard, it's gotta be used very judiciously -- otherwise the sound will be monotonous rather quickly. And unfortunately, the sound is only controllable by a manual volume control knob underneath the car. There is no Legacy interface to turn generator sounds on/off or volume up/down with the CAB-2. I suspect most folks will just set the volume VERY low or perhaps even turn the sounds off completely. (Those are my current plans for the AFT's generator car, as I don't want its bland sounds to overwhelm the nicer sounds of the locomotive and/or StationSounds dining car.) So let's just say I was underwhelmed by what I heard; whereas I was completely impressed with the StationSounds diner cars. That's where the action and "play value" is gonna be on these passenger trains.

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ...
> 
> I doubt we'll see anymore UP Excursion cars as I had hoped for after the initial run. Honestly, at this point, I'm just happy the cars have been produced.


Ya never know. Look at the AFT. In the course of 2+ years, Lionel has announced 12+ cars in the series. And I think they're all shipping together! 

At least if they announce more UP Excursion cars, you'll have more breathing room. I don't know all that much about the UP Excursion train(s). But you'd think Lionel would have announced a couple more offerings in the series instead of an entirely different UP train in the 2018 Big Book catalog.  

They also didn't announce any additional AFT cars in the 2018 Big Book, and I recall reading that the 1975-76 AFT had 26 cars. Not that we'd need all of them, since most layouts couldn't handle that long of a train anyway. But I do hope/expect Lionel will add another half-dozen or so AFT cars to the consist.

Regardless, they're definitely pretty good at always keep us guessing.

David


----------



## 86TA355SR

My recent thoughts on this train:

1. After two years of waiting, I'm seriously considering cancelling my order before delivery. 

2. The early report of the train is QC issues. More people are receiving their cars and reports are surfacing. 

3. No repair parts = no warranty repair. I confirmed this with Lionel personally.

4. Lionel QC issues continue to haunt their products. They're not concerned about it, the mindset seems to be the customer will deal with problems once delivered (No parts = No Warranty-IMO, the proof!). With BTO, they have 'no skin in the game' (cue David!) because the dealers are left holding the merchandise. Sure, the company's public image is to correct QC issues, but what 'action' have we witnessed that supports this claim? None IMO, we continue to see more QC issues with each delivery...Excursion cars are no exception, as a matter of fact, the whole round of last 21" passenger cars have been a QC mess.

5. I have to pay shipping twice on these if they're a mess when I open the box.


----------



## WITZ 41

Disappointing. Especially since they look pretty nice. Closest to date I've seen in accuracy for non-brass UP lightweight cars. I was hoping for a much better reveal as I was seriously contemplating an order of "The Challenger" set. Now, I'll likely pass. I'll wait for final judgement until after I read and see pics of Aaron's review of the set. 

In the mean time the poor reviews made me feel a little better about springing for a Harriman addition that should arrive next week. My first piece of brass rolling stock.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Aaron, I feel your pain buddy. There's a fellow over on the other forum who has painstakingly documented his trials and tribulations with these cars. I think he ended up buying THREE sets before he was able to find cars to make ONE good set to keep.  But it wasn't 100% clear to me what he did with the other cars in terms of returning them to dealers, getting refunds, etc...

He also had the patience of a saint to customize the interiors with painted seats/tables, etc... as well as paint and install people inside the cars. The results are pretty impressive, which is why I said earlier that I think "most" folks will be happy with this set IF -- and I emphasis IF -- they're able to get past the quality issues. This fellow also replaced all the Lionel factory-installed C-clips with much higher quality E-clips (from Home Depot), which seemed to be the source of the problem folks encountered with trucks falling off the car body. In short, his results look great... and the cars now appear the way Lionel should have delivered them to us in the first place... running reliably with people already inside the cars. 

I just took delivery of an AFT 2-pack the other day, and everything seemed fine. The remaining 11 AFT cars I ordered were due to arrive today. However, the snowy weather caused FedEx shipping exceptions (as I had expected when I heard the weather forecasts), so I probably won't see them now until tomorrow (Thursday) at the earliest. We got a good 8-10 inches of heavy wet snow in our neck of the woods, and the immediate schools in our area are closed tomorrow too. But things should return back to normal by mid-day tomorrow.

In any event, I'll keep everyone posted as to what I find with my AFT cars. I'm really hoping everything is manageable, since I'll be receiving 13 AFT cars when all is said and done. And I'm thinking Lionel should really announce another 6-8 add-ons to finish the train appropriately. Even with the 13 they announced and delivered initially, there's no observation car to properly end the train yet.  Certainly not the smartest decision on Lionel's part to produce a train in this day and age that doesn't stand on its own immediately -- especially considering all the nonsense going on with the overseas factories nowadays. So I'm just hoping Lionel holds it together long enough to complete this train in the next year or two. There were no AFT add-ons in the 2018 Big Book catalog, but I'm holding out high hopes for some add-ons in 2018 Volume 2 this August.

Beyond that, I don't know what to think about Lionel and their BTO program nowadays. They're doing a LOT of things wrong, yet they're still here delivering more product each year.  Not that I want to see them fail... because I don't. They have lots of potential to deliver good stuff. But the gap between the excitement created at catalog time and the disillusionment enthusiasts feel when stuff is finally delivered from the Chinese factories seems to be growing at an alarming rate in the past year or so. And at one point, folks are gonna just throw up their hands and call it quits... and be happy with the trains already on their roster. We're all getting there... slowly but surely.

David


----------



## Norton

I would interested to hear from anyone who has both the first run of 21" cars like the ESE cars and this current run.
I have one ESE SS diner from the first run. Construction seems identical to the current run as far as trucks and couplers. The trucks do seem to have a high bolster, typical of older Lionel cars but otherwise no issues like those pointed out with the new cars.
Are the two runs the same or can you see differences?

Pete


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Norton said:


> I would interested to hear from anyone who has both the first run of 21" cars like the ESE cars and this current run.
> I have one ESE SS diner from the first run. Construction seems identical to the current run as far as trucks and couplers. The trucks do seem to have a high bolster, typical of older Lionel cars but otherwise no issues like those pointed out with the new cars.
> Are the two runs the same or can you see differences?
> 
> Pete


I received my UP Excursion set yesterday. I have unboxed all the cars and yes, Pete, there are some significant differences between these and the first run ESE-based cars that I have, which comprise the full Texas Special set. The main difference is in the height of the body over the trucks - leaving aside, that is, the fact that the body shells are from different tooling and the Excursion cars are representations of the ACF-built UP cars. The kinetic coupler mechanism is broadly the same but the couplers themselves are a different material (some type of plastic) and do not operate smoothly. As all the cars come with mounting pads for Kadee scale couplers and I don't see a real advantage to the stock swinging couplers with these cars I am likely to replace them.

In most other respects there's no difference at all. Apart from the interior of the dome observation car in the Excursion set, all the interiors are the same as I have seen in my first run cars i.e. the very same moulded assemblies. This is a disappointment; I had understood Mike Reagan to say that the interiors of the second run cars would be more prototypical. They are not and I think (as I have said earlier in this thread) that at some point around the time that Mike left Lionel there was a change of plan for the detailing of these cars. There was clearly some manufacturing issue relating to them and I don't think it matters whether it was part of a cost cutting exercise. 

Superficially these are attractive cars and I have not found anything yet that I can't adjust/fix myself. But frankly with solid color interiors and no passengers when you look at them close up they are bland and I can't comprehend leaving them that way. The worst thing however is the assembly/build/design execution quality, which leaves a lot to be desired. I'll post photos later but in some respects it seems to me that the factory assembly workers really did not like what they were doing and took very little care over it. While I have not found any trucks dangling loose from the frames or glue on the windows like the OGR poster did, these cars simply do not have the solidly built feel of Lionel's last lot of scale aluminum cars or even the 18" aluminum cars from around 2005.

There's one assembly defect that really irks me. I believe that Lionel (to its credit) originally designed these cars for easy access to the interiors so that the end user could detail them if they wanted to. But on this run of cars the arch-sticky tape apparently used to fix the windows in place has not been trimmed back so that it binds the bodies to the frame and prying them off is required, not a simple exercise in removing four screws. Somebody at the factory just did not understand the design intention and bodged the final assembly together. 

These cars are not Lionel classics nor do they live up to their catalog hype. Anyone buying them is taking a chance on assembly defects although for the greater part these are things that an experienced modeler can deal with. They are still the only O scale representations of the Excursion cars I know of and if like me you want that these are the only option. I imagine that Lionel has sold a lot of these sets and will turn a profit on them but the damage to customer and probably dealer goodwill must be significant.


----------



## Norton

I appreciate the comparison. One reason I asked was to also point out that while parts may not be available for the current run, trucks and couplers can be had for the first run, at least for a while.
That would allow to at least replace the couplers with the older metal ones should you want to stay with big knuckles.
I bought my SS diner with the thought of moving the sounds to my GGD ESE cars. Then considered getting the rest of the Lionel cars as they are in some ways more accurate than the GGD cars. They have the full width diaphragms and the shade of silver is closer to prototype. Also the trucks are more detailed as is the undercarriage.
I didn't follow through after finding a set of the 18" cars which despite their generic look seem to be a much better value all around.
If I was a UP guy I would probably still get this excursion set and bite my tongue and then just fix all the flaws. If you prefer accurate prototypes then getting the shell right is the hardest part. Paint, couplers, details can be added. This set and the ESE set and likely the Amtrak cars should be close.
The SP cars are a disaster though and not worth the effort to fix up.
IMHO
Pete

PS, should anyone here replace the couplers on these cars with kadees I would be interested in the couplers provided you remove the complete kinematic mechanism. I would like to upgrade my 18" cars to closer coupling.

Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ...
> Superficially these are attractive cars and I have not found anything yet that I can't adjust/fix myself.
> 
> ....
> 
> The worst thing however is the assembly/build/design execution quality, which leaves a lot to be desired. I'll post photos later but in some respects it seems to me that the factory assembly workers really did not like what they were doing and took very little care over it. ....


The critical questions here center around: What is the real connection between Lionel and their manufacturing factories with all these products nowadays? Does Lionel have a factory already signed up and ready to go when these products are catalog'd? Or do they "shop out" the manufacture of products AFTER the catalog is published and orders are received? And then just roll the dice and see what they get from the cheapest bids?

On one hand, you'd think they need to have all the costs well understood BEFORE establishing a price in the catalog. On the other hand, I recall Mike Reagan mentioning a couple of years ago that Lionel couldn't find a factory in China that would sign up to build the Rotary Coal Tipple after it was catalog'd.  So that sort of flies in the face of Lionel having all their ducks lined up before cataloging a product.

Bottom line, the latest round of passenger cars are not standing out to be the best signs of overseas workmanship. And that can't sit THAT well with folks looking for a "warm and fuzzy feeling" when the 2018 Big Book pre-ordering deadline is just days away now.

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

David,

I agree. I wonder if what happened is that after getting some cost cutting directive from on high Lionel told its existing manufacturer that the cars would have to be produced at some cheapskate price and as a result the manufacturer cut corners. Either that or they shopped for the cheapest factory going and you know what they say about paying peanuts. 

In any event, the build quality on these models is way below what you'd expect for the price even if, allowing for inflation, it's somewhere around the same level as for previous scale length cars. 

But these are not the only Lionel products that clearly suffer from bad manufacturing. The last three orders I've had from Lionel have had serious assembly issues - two engines and the first run of the 21" StationSounds diner. So I for one am NOT looking to order anything else from Lionel that requires particular manufacturing skill and care. Sadly that probably rules out anything innovative as well as any other higher end products.


----------



## laz57

Hi GUYZ,
This is not to criticize Lionel at all. I received my 2 car add on set because I did want the Lionel version of the baggage car after hearing it would be produced as a 18 inch car. I was wrong they changed it and when I received it yesterday and opened it up to look at it, it is very nice. The QC wasn't however. They tightened down the screws too tight into the body that the one truck wouldn't pivot side to side. I had to take it apart and fix it. By taking it apart the one door that opens on the end fell off, lucky for me I found the small spring and the o hinge. I had to very tediously put it back together but did fix it. I do like them a lot and was going to order the 4 pack off of RO but still am not sure with the QC? I ran them the 2 pack in with the 18inch PT and they didn't look to bad. I still would like to get these other cars but might hold off for now. Just wish with all that you are paying Lionel they would have better quality. Thanks for your time.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ...
> 
> In any event, the build quality on these models is way below what you'd expect for the price even if, allowing for inflation, it's somewhere around the same level as for previous scale length cars.
> 
> But these are not the only Lionel products that clearly suffer from bad manufacturing. The last three orders I've had from Lionel have had serious assembly issues ....


Exactly. None of this is "new" news, per se, in the world of overseas manufacturing. Does anybody here remember Lionel's BNSF Ice Cold Express "premium set" from a few years ago? It was one of the few times Erics Trains was somewhat candid about production problems in such a glaring way -- almost as if the set was rushed out of the factory with shoddy workmanship. Problems ranged from the rolling stock's uncoupler plates dropping too low and shorting out on the center rail to trivialities like the locomotive box shipping without a label and SKU number. 

The point being... I think these types of QC issues have unfortunately become acceptable in "the big picture" of overseas manufacturing by Lionel's executive management team. Nobody takes ultimate pride in their work anymore, so that becomes a given over time.

The difference here, however, is what appears to be a lack of warranty support to help correct problems whose solution may reside in the simple use of spare parts. If we believe the early reports, there simply aren't any!  So we're all gonna be great Home Depot customers, as we make a beeline to our store to grab an extra supply of E-Clips to secure trucks/wheelsets to the car body better than the flimsy version supplied by the factory. 

Meanwhile, Lionel's executive team might wince a bit when they read this kind of feedback on the online forums. But any such sting is short-lived indeed, since their compensation isn't in any way, shape or form dependent on the good (or bad) things we enthusiasts have to say as buyers of today's product(s). So why should we expect any of this to change going forward?  For them, it's just part of the everyday give-and-take dynamics between overseas manufacturers 8,000 miles away and Stateside consumers who are operators today -- not collectors of yesteryear.

David


----------



## 86TA355SR

laz57 said:


> ...... Just wish with all that you are paying Lionel they would have better quality. Thanks for your time.


Laz,

Here's my view. *If I have to work on it out of the box, it's being returned for refund.* End of discussion. I encourage others to do the same. 

Until Lionel has a warehouse of returns for refund their lack of QC and factory control will continue with more junk arriving on our door steps.

My dealer and I had a discussion about this today. Understood the situation and frankly, I think even the dealer is a little frustrated by the QC issues.

My cars will arrive tomorrow, but it'll be a few days before I have time to check them. I'm hoping for the best.


----------



## laz57

Hi 86,
Good Luck with your cars. I really should send them back because of the glitch but I will hold on to them for now. Maybe sell them off later. But yes I will let Lionel know about the QC at the April YORK meet. Maybe if they get alot of people at YORK saying how they have a bad experience and are face to face while saying it they will get the clue that "we better pick up our game"? I think would be worth a try and being face to face they can't fluff it off.


----------



## 86TA355SR

laz57 said:


> .... But yes I will let Lionel know about the QC at the April YORK meet. Maybe if they get alot of people at YORK saying how they have a bad experience and are face to face while saying it they will get the clue that "we better pick up our game"? I think would be worth a try and being face to face they can't fluff it off.


No sarcasm intended here, but good luck. I did exactly that when my FEFs with cataloged 'road specific feed water heaters' weren't as advertised.

Ryan K. said he wasn't sure anything could be done about it after delivery (I expected this due to the complexity) but he'd follow up with me after the show, either a yes or no. After a couple 'pings' on my part several weeks later, with no reply, I waited a month and *returned ALL THREE FEFs for refund.*

I would've kept them and modified myself, but the lack of a simple, polite response when I spent $4,200 on their product was unacceptable. At least to me it was.

In today's modern age, I don't have to open a product when it arrives: social media, forums, someone will post pictures, youtube videos, describe QC issues, trends in QC faults are public (ie, trucks falling off passenger cars), and using all that information, I can return it to dealer unopened if I don't like what I received. Always use a credit card-file a dispute if needed. Though I've never needed too.

The point is, Lionel, and _I believe this after first hand knowledge_, is not concerned about customer satisfaction after the sale. Customers keep the product and Lionel made the sale.

*REFUNDS are noticed, especially given the 'rumor' of cost reduction based upon who owns Lionel now...Customers aren't standing in front of the 'bean counters' but hard numbers do! 
*

The Excursion cars are my last roll of the dice on Lionel QC. 

And, in case you're wondering, I did NOT order the "Challenger" set from the new catalog. Why significant? I'm a UP only modeler and have been waiting for accurate UP passenger cars for years. Possible QC issues and another 1 to 2 year wait...No thanks. I only gamble in Vegas...


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Guys,

I'm trying to be as kind as I can be with my comments towards Lionel execs. They're salesmen at heart... and salespeople are motivated by one *AND ONLY ONE THING* -- their compensation package. Lionels CEO isn't gonna give one hoot about a handful of folks "complaining" at York -- and that's if he even chooses to attend Lionel's booth at York the way Mike Wolf does so regularly at MTH's booth at practically every York show I've attended. Bottom line... these execs are measured on other metrics (i.e., sales volume, cost-reduction goals, etc...). And right now, we know Lionel sells most of their high end product to dealers via the BTO program. So the dealers hold the BTO inventory, and Lionel pretty much walks away from the transaction intact once product ships to the dealer. Up until recently, Lionel has been on the hook for warranty service, but even that's come under question with the latest round of 21" passenger cars. I'm not sure what dealers are doing with returned products these days. But nobody can run a successful business with faulty products sitting in their inventory.

Dealers are clearly issuing "last call" emails this week to finalize their orders for Lionel's 2018 Big Book pre-order deadline in a couple of days. Salespeople understand numbers. So a low pre-order tally will clearly send a message. But if dealers bolster the pre-order numbers to accommodate customer orders that might trickle in after products are delivered months/years down the road, then Lionel will still see a healthy order volume. And so this vicious cycle continues ad nauseam with little change. 

Will Lionel's reps at York take some heat? Absolutely. Will it really make a difference in the short-term? I don't think so. And that's just the way it is right now.  The only difference that could possibly make a Lionel exec look twice is if several dozen pallets of product are shipped back to NC without payment for said product. Sales people tolerate complaints, but they UNDERSTAND numbers -- especially numbers that affect their compensation plan directly. Failing that, nothing will change.

David


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Again, and as this thread continues to lengthen, I feel sorry for you guys who ordered these.


----------



## Big Jim

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Sales people tolerate complaints, but they UNDERSTAND numbers


Wonder what they would understand if nobody showed up?


----------



## Guest

Going plastic and the redesign of the new Lionel premium passenger cars was in my opinion not a good decision. My limited experience with them has not been favorable. I love passenger cars, but not what is currently being produced by Lionel. I cancelled my order for the UP set and am very happy that I did.

*It only makes me love my K-Line cars even more.* That's what is running exclusively on our new layout.


----------



## Traindiesel

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ........
> These cars are not Lionel classics nor do they live up to their catalog hype. Anyone buying them is taking a chance on assembly defects although for the greater part these are things that an experienced modeler can deal with. They are still the only O scale representations of the Excursion cars I know of and if like me you want that these are the only option. I imagine that Lionel has sold a lot of these sets and will turn a profit on them but the damage to customer and probably dealer goodwill must be significant.


That's the thing, the reason for the indifference from all the O gauge importers. If you don't like something, it's not like we can go to another company for the same items. We are captive to whoever is making what we like and we hope it'll end up as what we like. If it's not we can't get them anywhere else.

I remember people bemoaning the fact that MTH would make the same items as Lionel, or Lionel would make the same items as MTH. I wish that still happened so we'd have a choice.



laz57 said:


> Hi 86,
> Good Luck with your cars. I really should send them back because of the glitch but I will hold on to them for now. Maybe sell them off later. But yes I will let Lionel know about the QC at the April YORK meet. Maybe if they get alot of people at YORK saying how they have a bad experience and are face to face while saying it they will get the clue that "we better pick up our game"? I think would be worth a try and being face to face they can't fluff it off.


Talk about people who could care less! The Lionel reps are just "booth models" who don't have a lot of correct info anyway. Our cries will fall on deaf ears.



Passenger Train Collector said:


> Going plastic and the redesign of the new Lionel premium passenger cars was in my opinion not a good decision. My limited experience with them has not been favorable. I love passenger cars, but not what is currently being produced by Lionel. I cancelled my order for the UP set and am very happy that I did.
> 
> *It only makes me love my K-Line cars even more.* That's what is running exclusively on our new layout.


I too am so glad I was able to acquire a good amount of K-Line aluminum scale passenger cars, especially when dealers were blowing out sets of them. They may be mostly generic, but with their aluminum bodies they look fantastic when running on the rails! 

*Now if I could only locate a set of Amtrak Surfliners, my collection would be complete!*


----------



## Traindiesel

David, please post some pictures of the Penn Central set. I'm on the fence for these, but with the less than stellar reviews so far I'm not sure if I'm ready to jump off the fence.

Still waiting for my UP Excursion set. I'll probably keep it to go with my Lionel UP #844 and my MTH E8 ABA.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Traindiesel said:


> David, please post some pictures of the Penn Central set. I'm on the fence for these, but with the less than stellar reviews so far I'm not sure if I'm ready to jump off the fence.
> 
> ...


Brian, my 4-pack of Penn Central cars is back-ordered thru Charlie Ro. I only received the StationSounds diner and 2-pack.  And I noticed tonight that the 4-pack is no longer listed on Charlie's website, even though it's featured in today's "new arrivals" email blast. If you click on the PC 4-pack link in the email, you'll get an _"oops... error 404... page doesn't exist"_ error message. 

I'm not sure if that means Charlie was short-shipped on the order or what. But I did call the store today and was told they're expecting another shipment of those. Now whether Charlie is accepting more orders for the 4-pack or not, I'm not sure -- just that the PC 4-pack SKU is off the website for now.

I've seen this happen before, and then a week or two later an item that was out-of-stock may reappear. That happened with the Amtrak StationSounds diner. Charlie is pretty good about fulfilling pre-orders one way or another -- even if he needs to involve other dealers to make things happen.

But I'll still be keeping a close eye on this, since I was really looking to build a nice passenger train behind my JLC black PC GG-1. And this multi-color configuration caught my eye.

David


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## Traindiesel

Yes, the multi-color configuration of the Penn Central set is what I like about it too. You could pull them with several different GG1's from PRR, PC and even Conrail.

I'm hoping they aren't suffering from the same issues as the other sets.


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## 86TA355SR

Mine arrived today. We'll see what's in the boxes soon.

The little voice in the back of my head is telling me I should've cancelled my order...but we'll see. Hoping for the best.


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## seayakbill

Is it just possible that some folks are expecting to much from the electric train manufactures that mass produce the product. 

Bill


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## Norton

seayakbill said:


> Is it just possible that some folks are expecting to much from the electric train manufactures that mass produce the product.
> 
> Bill


In some cases that may be true but I don't think it applies here.
Reason is we have seen what Lionel is capable of in the past. 
The 18" metal cars were solid with few if any issues. They had better detailing with multicolor interiors and figures. Couplers were all metal.
The first run of 21" cars had better couplers and no issues but Lionel was already omitting detail with bland interiors and no figures. 
This run is another step backwards with poor quality components.
All coupled with price increases at every release.

Both MTH and Golden Gate Depot cars have been gradually getting better with each release. Prices have also been going up but at least you are getting more for your money. With Lionel the opposite has been happening.

Pete


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## Jeff T

This is going to sound very harsh, but...

Until you guys stop lining up at Lionel's door nothing is going to change.

Everybody complains, but you keep on buying, buying and buying...


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## Norton

I have been done with lionel for a while now. I received three catalogs in the mail. All are in the hands of club members now.
I will stick to older stuff for which I can still get parts for.

Pete


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## 86TA355SR

It's not asking to much for the trucks not to fall off the cars, paint not smeared, and hand rails are attached. That's Lionel QC...

Unfortunately, none of us knew at the time any of the latest round of 21" passenger cars would have QC issues-we bought in good faith or none of us would've purchased.

Hind sight is always 20/20.

My only other new Lionel order was the FEF disappointment-IF Excursion cars are a mess, then they'll be returned for refund. It's that simple.

This was my last attempt for Lionel. So, I'm hardly buying, buying, buying....


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## Rocky Mountaineer

seayakbill said:


> Is it just possible that some folks are expecting to much from the electric train manufactures that mass produce the product.
> ...


Bill, I'm sure Lionel's executive team is grinning ear to ear when they read a comment like yours.  And that's OK. We all approach this hobby differently. Over on the other forum, there's a group of stalwart Lionel loyalists who "report" my posts like clockwork to the moderators -- requesting they be deleted -- because they think I'm too hard on poor Lionel.

However, I'll stand by each and every post I've made about the improvements Lionel can make with respect to their products, because I don't just blatantly criticize them. Rather I try to ALWAYS point out areas where things can be improved -- especially if it's simply related to good old-fashioned communications, teamwork, and overall project management skills.

Just this morning, I commented over there on a thread where somebody discovered how difficult these new passenger cars are to disassemble in order to populate them with passengers (which in my opinion should be included in the first place). This was my post over there:

Agreed. And once again, it's yet another example of Lionel Stateside being completely clueless how its products are being manufactured 8,000 miles away. Admittedly, it's been over 2 years since I purchased a Texas Special train from the first run of Lionel's new ABS passenger cars. But when Lionel decided to produce ABS passenger cars without passengers installed in them, the big sales pitch was how QUICK and EASY it would be for enthusiasts to just unscrew four screws and voila... the body shell pops off and we'd have access to the interiors.

The whole process of populating these passenger cars was supposed to be simple and painless. I guess Lionel Stateside forgot to tell it's overseas factory about that subtle point.  So now, folks need to be ultra careful when populating these new passenger cars, since Lionel reportedly doesn't even have spare body shells as replacements if we accidentally ruin one in what is now a tricky (and sticky) process. :smilie_daumenneg:

This is PRECISELY the kind of stuff that happens when you send projects overseas, close your eyes, and just hope on a "wing-and-a-prayer" that the stuff is gonna be built right without any communication or supervision whatsoever. Not. Gonna. Happen. 

So instead, Lionel Stateside chooses to be as surprised as the rest of us when products arrive off container ships in North Carolina. And folks wonder why some of us draw the conclusion that Lionel Stateside doesn't know what its left and right hands are doing? 

Anybody care to guess what the NEXT surprise is gonna be? :dunno: The UPS truck just delivered a big box of Farmer John's popcorn that my wife ordered from QVC. So I'm ready on that front.  ​

So you tell me... am I asking too much of Lionel given what I stated here ALONG WITH what Pete and Aaron mentioned in their comments a couple of posts back? I'm wearing my big-boy pants today, so I'm open to hearing your thoughts.  Perhaps I'm too harsh and opinionated. But I think Lionel is making it harder and harder for you to defend their business practices these days. 

David


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Jeff T said:


> This is going to sound very harsh, but...
> 
> Until you guys stop lining up at Lionel's door nothing is going to change.
> 
> Everybody complains, but you keep on buying, buying and buying...


I'm afraid I have to agree with Jeff. These UP excursion cars are not the first instance where Lionel has had quality control issues over the last 5 years. Obviously, the QC problems have become worse over the past 2 years or so.

If you want to avoid these issues, then stop buying new Lionel. Simple, isn't it?


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## Lee Willis

No, rocky Mountaineer, I don't think you are asking too much of Lionel.

For me, the distressing thing is that clearly, Lionel intended these cars to be a major breakthrough product - new, scale, 21" car in great detail that would excite customers and set a stake in the ground about "the new Lionel." One has to assume that they handled this as well as they could handle anything. And the result is the product was very late on promised delivery, lacks certain things I expect in this price/quality range (passengers) and suffers from very poor quality. 

Meanwhile, one good product I saw them recently introduce, the Legacy-like Lioncheif Plus SD60Ms, seem to have been removed from the current catalog.

This doesn't bode well for the future.


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## Craignor

David,

I agree with you.

I was at York a couple of years ago to see Mike Regan demo the new 21” cars, I was flabbergasted when he said “one of the features was no people, you can put as many in as you like, people sold separately”. I couldn't believe my ears. Needless to say, I passed on further considering these cars.

For the money Lionel is charging, the cars should come with people, and they should come in perfect condition, anything less is unacceptable.

Lionel is lost right now, and they better wake up before their customers find other suppliers.


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## Yellowstone Special

Craignor said:


> Lionel is lost right now, and they better wake up before their customers find other suppliers.
> 
> View attachment 420537


Uh, I'm afraid some of their former customers have already found other suppliers.


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## Lee Willis

Yellowstone Special said:


> Uh, I'm afraid some of their former customers have already found other suppliers.


Yes, they have. Like me.


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## HarborBelt1970

I think (and this is not merely being wishful) that I might have lucked out with my Excursion Car sets. No cosmetic defects or missing parts, couplers not showing signs of erratic behavior and no pinched wires in either the diner or generator car. 

One notable and unheralded improvement over the first run cars: the LED lighting comes on immediately there is power to the track rather than there being many seconds before the capacitors charge up and the lights reach full illumination. 

There's a nice set of photos of someone else's cars coupled with a comparison with K-Line 21" aluminum cars over on the other forum: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...ars?reply=78438393749915374#78438393749915374

His photos are better than mine but here's a few:
























As you can see from the last one, I got impatient to check out the StationSounds diner and took it apart to check the wiring. The body shells don't come off easily, contrary to what they were designed to do. But I got the diner shell off by using coffee stirring sticks to hold the shell away from the frame once I had detached the double-side tape used to hold the windows in place. This was a tip from another forum. 

The diner interior is smaller than O scale and really not "prototypical" as I thought Lionel intended to make it. In fact it does not correspond to any dining car I know of and certainly not the Overland Diner as it has been configured in service. This is what I thought Lionel would model:









Obviously I was hoping for too much. Still, there is loads of room in the diner to be creative and I am thinking of replacing the middle section with a table arrangement like the one pictured above. I might even stick in a bar.

Externally the window placement is right but all of these cars lack much roof detail. At the kitchen end there is nothing like the large modern ventilation gear that the prototype has:









But I could build that myself if I wanted to. Overall, as I have already said, these cars are not a Lionel classic especially because as the first photo above shows the interiors just look bland without any color or passengers. General customer satisfaction is likely at an all time low thanks to this and other Lionel QC disasters. I got lucky this time but I'm not trusting to luck again.


----------



## laz57

I have stated before that I only bought the two pack, wanting the Flag baggage car that was suppose to be 18 inches. Instead it was sent 21 inches oh well. I am running them with the Lionel 18 inch UP cars and they do not look to bad running with these cars. But I did have a concern last night while running and hooking up these cars. That was the couplers that Lionel used. You really got to slam them together a few times for them to close if ever they do. Another CHEAP trick by Lionel to save a few bucks? I don;t know but glad I didn't get the whole set now.


----------



## Norton

I think I mentioned before I am not a UP guy but do value prototypical accuracy. I decided to have a look at what MTH offers. It appears they have done UP smooth side streamliners dozens of times including a set that is supposed to be out now.
No doubt they are generic and likely none are an exact match for the Excursion cars. That said those cars look pretty good for just running around. Decent detail inside and out. In this case they are at least based on ACF cars like most all MTH cars are. No doubt build quality is much better. Instead of 7 cars for 1000 bucks you could get a dozen for likely less and make an even longer train despite their shorter length. I think if Mike made a flat ended observation he could sell even more of these sets.

What are your thoughts?

Pete


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## Lee Willis

It's just not worth it to me. A seven car set, on Pat's Trains website, will cost me just over $1350. I'd probably get shipping thrown in for free if I asked. For that I get seven 21" cars with, as pointed out, have no passengers, unrealistic no-quite-scale interiors in at least some (dining car), and not really great roof and underside detail. To me, these just aren't even so-so value for the money, even if they have no quality problems and even though they are sure to be eventually discounted a lot.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Norton said:


> ... It appears they have done UP smooth side streamliners dozens of times including a set that is supposed to be out now.
> ...


I was always a fan of Lionel's 18" aluminum cars (and even their 15" aluminum cars with the silhouetted windows in their day). They just had a robust "premium" look-and-feel to them.

But when Lionel dropped their aluminum passenger car line in favor of ABS 21" cars, I think that gave lots of folks more cause to look at MTH passenger cars with good reasons: they have detailed interiors WITH some passengers already installed, and they look better on most layouts that don't have extremely broad curves (i.e., O-120+)... which is most of us.

Having said all of that... I always found it somewhat amusing that MTH seems to ALWAYS offer a UP passenger set -- just about every time they have a catalog with new passenger set announcements. I guess UP is a good seller for MTH... either that or there's an "unwritten" agreement in place between Mike and UP, where MTH gives UP a plug every chance they can get. Just an interesting observation.

David


----------



## Lee Willis

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> ... I always found it somewhat amusing that MTH seems to ALWAYS offer a UP passenger set -- just about every time they have a catalog with new passenger set announcements. I guess UP is a good seller for MTH... either that or MTH and UP have some agreement in place where MTH gives UP a plug every chance they can get. Just an interesting observation.
> 
> David


I think it is a good seller. I certainly see enough, on just about ever train layout I visit, regardless of where or what scale for that matter. I think if you make it UP, particularly UP yellow and gray, it sells. Sort like Hudsons - make a NYC one and it sells.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

laz57 said:


> I have stated before that I only bought the two pack, wanting the Flag baggage car that was suppose to be 18 inches. Instead it was sent 21 inches oh well. ...


Paul, glad to hear Lionel's 21" baggage car blends in OK with your 18" passenger cars. I was thinking about doing that too, but then I saw MTH also offered a new 18" flag car with the door painted as part of the flag -- unlike the earlier MTH flag car (which I also own) that the door inside the flag painted yellow. 

At one point, I was thinking of trying my hand at painting the yellow door on the earlier MTH flag car. But now, I think I'll just leave it as is and run both cars on the head-end of my Lionel 18" aluminum UP passenger train. The new MTH flag car should arrive this week from Pat's Trains. 

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Lee Willis said:


> ... I think if you make it UP, particularly UP yellow and gray, it sells. ...


Lee, I agree. However, I'm partial to the UP passenger cars (and locomotives for that matter) which have the bright silver trucks as opposed to the dull grey trucks. The bright silver paint shows off the truck details much better (to my eyes, anyway).

David


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Traindiesel said:


> Yes, the multi-color configuration of the Penn Central set is what I like about it too. You could pull them with several different GG1's from PRR, PC and even Conrail.
> 
> ....


Brian, that's why I've also ordered the PRR 2-pack (diner/kitchen sound car), Conrail full-dome sound car, and Conrail theatre car to add to this Penn Central set. From a color perspective, the PRR brown is already in the PC set, so I'm only adding one new color, the Conrail dark green, which should fit in just fine (I think).  

Lionel's tech wizards thought of nearly everything when implementing their StationSounds technology on the newest Legacy sound cars... because they've provided a MIN/MAX switch underneath the StationSounds cars. So we can now have multiple sound cars in the same train. Only ONE car set to MAX plays the announcements and dialogs, while the other sound cars set to MIN just play the background sounds (i.e., wheel screeching, rail clickity-clacks, etc...). Cool feature!!! Can't wait to try it out. 

Now if I can only get my hands around the Penn Central 4-pack, I'll feel a bit more secure about this whole train. Charlie told me again today that he's expecting more later this week. Keeping my fingers crossed....

David


----------



## Lee Willis

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lee, I agree. However, I'm partial to the UP passenger cars (and locomotives for that matter) which have the bright silver trucks as opposed to the dull grey trucks. The bright silver paint shows off the truck details much better (to my eyes, anyway).
> 
> David


I've actually repainted some gray trucks silver. To heck with historical accuracy: if it looks good, it is good!


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Lee Willis said:


> I've actually repainted some gray trucks silver. To heck with historical accuracy: if it looks good, it is good!


I've done that too, except on my 30 year old Williams Crown Edition Santa Fe set. The silver trucks just look much more prototypical on Santa Fe's silver cars than black.









Regarding Lionel's UP excursion cars and by comparison, I'm assembling trains in N scale, with the thought of making an N scale layout someday. I purchased KATO's UP City of Los Angeles passenger car set of 11 cars and think the detailing on them is superb, even for N scale. These cars appeared with the gray trucks in 1955. From 1956 on, they had the silver trucks, so maybe I should paint them silver, too. But it would require a smaller brush and steadier hand for N scale.









This isn't a very good close-up shot. There are no people in these and the COLA set has been out for about 6 years. KATO's UP excursion car set has been out for about 3 years. Now, I know we're talking 2 different scales here, but if KATO can do such a good job in N scale with these, why can't Lionel have them done right in O scale? Sheesh!

Whadaya know? It worked! I got a new MacBook Pro and since Fabforrest is a Mac user, I PM'd him about how to post photos in the forum with it. The procedure is a little different than with using a PC. So thank you, Forrest! Very much appreciated!


----------



## Norton

With all the talk about these sets I tried to learn a bit more about the Excursion Train. Found a video on Youtube taken in 2015 showing it led by an E8/9? ABA, another modern diesel (??) and then 19 or 20 cars. 
What an opportunity lost by Lionel. Had they produced some decent cars they could have reproduced the whole train and had buyers. If MTH can make these sets every other year there has to be a market.
I also noticed at least two, maybe three cars with open vestibule ends that appeared to be business or observation cars throughout the train. Imagine two ten cars sets with one using the alternate open vestibule for an observation car.






Pete


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Pete, thanks for sharing that video! Now THAT's a train with some "wow-factor" in it. If Lionel would have produced half that train properly, enthusiasts could have been salivating for the other half down the road.

I was impressed with the variety of cars -- as well as the roof details that are completely missing on the Lionel models. That was an interesting car -- immediately behind the diesel engines -- that I have never seen before. Cool. And those business cars you mentioned would be nice additions to the train as well.

Yes... I realize new tooling is expensive, but what a "statement piece" Lionel could have had on its hands here. Instead the bean-counters delivered just another UP passenger train that fell far short of the expectations they set over 2 years ago for UP enthusiasts. What a missed opportunity!!! 

David


----------



## Yellowstone Special

In other words, Lionel blew it again.


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Norton said:


> I think I mentioned before I am not a UP guy but do value prototypical accuracy. I decided to have a look at what MTH offers. It appears they have done UP smooth side streamliners dozens of times including a set that is supposed to be out now.
> 
> No doubt they are generic and likely none are an exact match for the Excursion cars. That said those cars look pretty good for just running around. Decent detail inside and out. In this case they are at least based on ACF cars like most all MTH cars are. No doubt build quality is much better. Instead of 7 cars for 1000 bucks you could get a dozen for likely less and make an even longer train despite their shorter length. I think if Mike made a flat ended observation he could sell even more of these sets.
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> Pete


Good points you raise, as always. I decided to excavate some of my MTH Union Pacific streamlined passenger cars from a display case to have a fresh look at them in light of what I have seen of Lionel's Excursion cars.

Yes, good build quality but essentially generic. The trouble with learning about the prototypes is that you want models of them to reflect their distinctive features, which have a long history and, for some of us, great nostalgia value.

Here are two examples of MTH UP cars, both 18" length and in MTH's rendering of ACF prototypes. Left is "Colombia River" which is a sleeper (now used for crew sleeper/dorm service) and right is "Colorado Eagle" which is a dome diner. I believe I got these around 2012 after they were part of an uncatalogued MTH Dealer Appreciation Program issue in 2010 comprising in total 8 cars:









Both of the prototypes are still part of UP's Heritage Fleet although I've no knowledge of how far they are used in excursion service. 

More obvious from the below photos of each car on a powered track is the interior and roof detail. Neither car has been rendered as it really appears in service. The sleeper has a coach interior instead of a sleeper and no photo of the real Columbia River I have seen has the odd clerestory windows/portholes the model has. There are however a couple of nice touches with window blinds that the photos don't do justice to. Colorado Eagle has a stock vista dome interior, not a dome diner, and there is no lighting in the dome (unlike more recent MTH cars):









The lighting is incandescent rather than LED but is very close to the excellent lighting in the Lionel Excursion cars. On the sleeper roof you can make out the ACF rivet detail but compared to the Lionel cars this frankly looks like goosebumps as much as anything else. The painted finish is very glossy, which tends to make these details stand out.

Good for running around? I agree. But this caused me to think about the ambition behind Lionel's latest 21" sets. They've produced a really substantial variety of cars - including what I think are three different sound equipped ones, which I don't think MTH has done for years (if ever, at least to my knowledge). Too bad that Lionel's factory assembly proved just shoddy in many cases.


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Pete, thanks for sharing that video! Now THAT's a train with some "wow-factor" in it. If Lionel would have produced half that train properly, enthusiasts could have been salivating for the other half down the road.
> 
> I was impressed with the variety of cars -- as well as the roof details that are completely missing on the Lionel models. *That was an interesting car -- immediately behind the diesel engines -- that I have never seen before. Cool. *
> 
> David


It certainly is. That is a UP "power car" and as far as I know no one has produced a model of it in any scale. Here's the official description and another view:

















There's obviously also a generator car as modeled by Lionel as one appears later in the video clip but nothing of that kind is listed on the UP heritage fleet roster. You can access it here: https://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/historical_equipment/index.htm

I've actually had thoughts about building a representation of the power car's roof and placing it on the Lionel generator car but it wouldn't match the size of the prototype. 

There's certainly an argument that Lionel spread its net too wide with the second run ABS cars as had they modeled a more complete UP Excursion set rather than other roads they'd have got a lot of enthusiasts (like me) on board for two installments.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ...
> 
> There's certainly an argument that Lionel spread its net too wide with the second run ABS cars as had they modeled a more complete UP Excursion set rather than other roads they'd have got a lot of enthusiasts (like me) on board for two installments.


Thanks for the info on that "power car"... very interesting.

The more I think about this UP Excursion train, the more I realize Lionel SHOULD have made this part of their VisionLine offerings. If produced properly, it could have been quite the statement piece as a "reference standard" of sorts for Lionel passenger cars. Folks have tossed around the idea of a VisionLine passenger set for years now, and this would have been the ideal candidate. Instead this train will likely fall into another one of Lionel's "If only they would have done it properly..." _faux pas_ category of products. Quite sad when you think about what this train could have been.

I suppose Lionel will argue that they need to amortize their ABS 21" passenger car investment across as many road-names as possible to build up a good ROI for the boys at Guggenheim Partners. So I'm sure that's gonna be Lionel's passenger car strategy for the foreseeable future, rather than customize to specific trains of the passenger train glory days.

In that regard, I would have thought Atlas-O might have traveled a similar road after their California/Amtrak Zephyr trains were produced. I think they announced a couple of cars to be done in the Alaska RR livery, but don't recall any follow-up announcements for those cars. And shortly thereafter, not much came out of Atlas-O in the way of those Zephyr-tooled passenger cars -- except, of course, when Atlas-O re-issued the ENTIRE California Zephyr trains as "complete 12-car sets". I guess Atlas-O's penchant for prototype accuracy kept their offerings in the CZ camp rather than deliver the same style cars in other liveries. Otherwise, I would have gladly snatched up a Great Northern _Empire Builder_ or Northern Pacific _North Coast Limited_ passenger sets if done with the Zephyr tooling. Atlas-O's price/performance remains unbeatable for those Zephyr passenger cars without jumping into nose-bleed territory with GGD offerings.

Yes... Lionel certainly had an opening in that market... and they missed the bull's eye -- perhaps not by intention, but rather in extremely poor execution. 

Having said all of this... I'll admit that I'm reasonably pleased with the AFT cars though. But Lionel really needs to follow the initial AFT cars with some truly unique offerings (i.e., Showcase cars, flatcars with concession equipment, and business car style passenger cars) to complete the train. So hopefully Lionel won't keep AFT fans waiting too long.

I also applaud Lionel for taking the chance on a multi-colored Penn Central train that represents the "mixed livery years" true to the prototype. So well, in fact, that I plan to extend that line of thinking by adding some PRR and Conrail cars to the Lionel PC offering. And I might even double-head the whole resulting 10- or 12-car train with two JLC GG-1's to help the cause. 

So I guess all in all, this latest round of Lionel 21" passenger cars wasn't a TOTAL debacle. But the roll-out was certainly less than ideal... being marked with some less-than-quality components (i.e., cheap couplers, sub-par washers, etc...) and shoddy assembly work -- especially if your train was produced on the shift when the factory flunkies showed up.

David


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Apropos of David's comment about Vision Line passenger sets, which I also would have liked to see and the Excursion cars would have been the ideal candidate, maybe there's no manufacturer available who can build anything to VL standard; read on:

Over on the other Forum there's a thread about the AFT sound cars, which is interesting for the videos posted by Scrapiron Scher with the sounds. I'd guess that this is the StationSounds dining car system with the music and narrative programmed in and it's a worthwhile innovation/adaptation: 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...-up?reply=78438393793437755#78438393793437755

But I mention it not for that but because the problem with these and certain other sound-equipped cars having electronics visible through the car windows has been addressed by Dave O. from Lionel, in what I think is the first instance of someone from Lionel coming out from under cover to explain what went wrong with these new issue cars. He's said: 

To answer the question on the exposed electronics:

Turning the shell around will not work. The interior has the same insert on both ends. It was from the UP car that did not have the windows on that side of the car. We requested that the windows were to be blocked out or frosted, but this was unfortunately missed.

What you can do is block the windows with whatever method you feel comfortable with. I've used electrical tape on the inside of the shell. You could also use a sheet of styrene or even paint if you're feeling dangerous. 

Hope this helps.

Nothing yet on coupler/paint/missing parts issues but it's pretty obvious that the factory, whoever exactly they are, made a mess of design execution as well as assembly. And somehow Lionel did not catch this before all the cars were made and shipped. Not sure which is worse.:smilie_daumenneg:


----------



## Norton

If had these I think I would past pictures of cooks in the galley. Black tape.:smilie_daumenneg:

Pete


----------



## Craignor

Norton said:


> If had these I think I would past pictures of cooks in the galley. Black tape.:smilie_daumenneg:
> 
> Pete


Hooters waitresses.:thumbsup:


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ... I mention it not for that but because the problem with these and certain other sound-equipped cars having electronics visible through the car windows has been addressed by Dave O. from Lionel, in what I think is the first instance of someone from Lionel coming out from under cover to explain what went wrong with these new issue cars. ...


Shortly after you posted here, I added a couple of photos to that thread showing that the factory DID treat the Amtrak and Penn Central sound cars properly with respect to keeping the electronics hidden from view. Why the factory didn't do that for the AFT sound cars (and possibly the Pennsy BL sound car as also reported on the other forum) remains a mystery. 

And as you mentioned, ya gotta wonder where Lionel was in supervising assembly of the AFT cars. Were they manufactured in the same factory? Presumably they were, as all of the shipping boxes in which my recent purchases were packed had labels indicating passenger car 4-packs or 2-packs AND dated Dec 29, 2017. I have a suspicion that much of these problems happen, because there is virtually no ON-SITE SUPERVISION of the factory by Lionel personnel. Whether it's due to raw, bean-counter cost-cutting or whatever, Lionel seems content to manage afar by receiving production samples in NC... and then giving the project a thumbs up or thumbs down accompanied by a series of change-requests. And if it's the latter, they obviously don't get another production sample sent to NC... otherwise they would have caught this glaring production misstep on an otherwise wonderful sound car.

Yet another "fix" that falls on the customer... after paying $225+ that probably costs Lionel less than $50 to have manufactured.  

David


----------



## 86TA355SR

Opened my set tonight. Overall, I'm pleased.

The observation car is beautiful, as are the rest of the cars. They're much heavier than I thought they'd be for being ABS.









I love this detail-"Union Pacific" vertically between the grab irons. I was impressed to see this and thought for certain it'd be overlooked!

The claws will be going to the trash.









No big deal, some wires hanging down. Each car has an "on/off" switch for the lights. I will probably have all mine turned off anyway...

ALL of my cars had small pieces of foam 'floating' on them. At first, I thought they were paint chips. A quick wipe and the foam was gone. Not sure where the foam came from, the cars come in plastic 'shells' and in clear plastic. 









I'm not OK with this! It's not a chip, it seems to be a chemical or something was spilled on the car. I tried to remove it and no luck, so it'll be returned tomorrow.









...Or grey paint missing from the right side of the flag car. I can't tell if it was shipping or left the factory this way. Originally, I was going touch the paint up myself, but later decided the 2 pack will be returned tomorrow for a replacement.









Given the QC issues we're all aware of, I'm quite pleased with mine. Other than the paint issues shown above, no trucks falling off, no damaged windows, no missing grab irons, etc. I feel for those who received a mess when they opened the box. Guess I got lucky! 

I was hoping for more Excursion cars in the future, instead Lionel did the "Challenger" as an in-service train. I will be making more cars for my Excursion train, a correct generator car, and adding some details. Good times ahead!

Hope those who ordered the AFT are as lucky as I am!


----------



## Big Jim

Looks like you have a window punched out too.


----------



## HarborBelt1970

86TA355SR said:


> Opened my set tonight. Overall, I'm pleased.
> 
> The observation car is beautiful, as are the rest of the cars. They're much heavier than I thought they'd be for being ABS . . .
> 
> Given the QC issues we're all aware of, I'm quite pleased with mine. Other than the paint issues shown above, no trucks falling off, no damaged windows, no missing grab irons, etc. I feel for those who received a mess when they opened the box. Guess I got lucky!
> 
> I was hoping for more Excursion cars in the future, instead Lionel did the "Challenger" as an in-service train. *I will be making more cars for my Excursion train, a correct generator car, and adding some details.* Good times ahead!


As you started this thread it is good to know that you are basically satisfied with what has arrived so long after the thread began.

I am particularly interested in the comment highlighted above and the one immediately before it. Taking the reference to a correct generator car first, are you intending to modify the existing sound-equipped generator car or build something from scratch? I have had two ideas about mine: (1) installing an ERR Mini Commander board to provide remote control of the on-off function (a possibility referred to by David O. of Lionel in a thread on the other place although I do not think that the ERR board can control volume as well) and (2) making the car into a representation (admittedly only that and not a scale replica) of the UP power car referred to earlier in this thread by installing the roof features.

I judge that adding the power car roof canopy or hood would not be a hugely complicated effort although the car would still be short of the right length and would not have the prototype's window placements. There is quite a bit of photo evidence of the roof construction; a bit of research discloses that it houses large ventilation fans to dissipate the heat from the diesel-powered generators. Below are (a) the only photo I have found so far of the top of the roof structure and (b) another view of the windows:

















Second, ideally I'd like another dome car and you mention Lionel's offering of an in-service version of the Challenger train cars. I'm not convinced that these will be any different from the Excursion cars although the catalog illustration indicates that there will be bellows-style diaphragms on the Challenger set:









Well, we all know how accurate Lionel catalog illustrations are. With that in mind I mention that the car number in the catalog is 7011, which corresponds to the Missouri River Eagle, a dome diner that is part of the UP Heritage Fleet:









So that might be an option for an additional dome *IF* there's a real assurance of Lionel doing proper QC on the next run. Of course, no one can be completely confident about that and like you I think I already have enough to work on with the Excursion set.

P.S. The reason for the weight of these cars is the metal frame, which is not merely a plate as with Lionel aluminum cars but a fairly thick and inflexible metal construct. The ABS body shells themselves are very light, almost like 3D printed shells although they are obviously produced from moulds.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> Opened my set tonight. Overall, I'm pleased.
> 
> ....
> 
> I was hoping for more Excursion cars in the future, instead Lionel did the "Challenger" as an in-service train. I will be making more cars for my Excursion train, a correct generator car, and adding some details. Good times ahead!
> 
> ....


Aaron, glad to hear you're happy with your set of cars.

As for Lionel offering the "Challanger" train instead of expanding the UP Expedition set? Another mystery move on Lionel's part. I would have loved to be in the board room when that discussion took place! 

Who makes these decisions?  Certainly not train guys who understand their marketplacee. That's for sure!!!!'


David


----------



## Craignor

What a disaster: lack of passengers, visible hanging wires, the lack of shielding of the electronics in the sound car (on another livery), trucks unattached, punched in windows, bad paint job, and those awefull thumb tack couplers. 

No warranty, No spare parts, makes it even worse.

I have bought lots of passenger cars over the last two decades, MTH Premier and Railking, Atlas, Lionel, RMT, K-Line, and none of those sets had ANY of these issues. 

This is a new low for O gauge passenger cars IMO, and an expensive one at that.

Lionel should be ashamed.


----------



## rboatertoo

I did the right thing!!! When they announced this set, I was looking for a UP set of passenger cars, so I almost jumped and pre ordered this. But I thought about waiting for years and decided to continue my hunt for the K-line 21". I found all the k-line cars about a year ago. Hearing all the problems with these cars makes me believe I made the right decision.


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## 86TA355SR

Harbor, 

More Excursion cars will be made using Union Station products-a company that sells the 'sides' of UP passenger cars in plastic. I buy the sides, my buddy 3D scans them, and cut from brass using his water jet. High dollar equipment but he owns the shop and I'm able to access it. We did a sample and it's really promising. 

Other coaches or dome will be lettered accordingly by simple 'renaming' current cars.

My plan is to build a completely new generator car. Though it was nice to see Lionel venture out with this set, the generator car is far from accurate.

Check out this HO version. I highly recommend viewing the other Excursion car clips, he has done a great job and captures the details:






I'm almost sure the Challenger will be cars similar to the Excursion set, minus the generator car. Personally, I wanted more of the latter, and I never trust catalog depictions-I got burned in the past.

I forgot to look for the vents on the station sounds diner. The catalog showed them, but I don't remember seeing them when I checked all the cars.

On a side note, the Excursion cars don't seem to have the "plastic look" either. 

I wish the manfs would make all the observation cars a separate sale item-then I could buy four packs of coaches and make a longer train. Just my opinion. 

Guys, don't take me wrong, *I'm very pleased with all my cars. * I was very fortunate the QC gods randomly sent me good cars. And, the ones that weren't were taken care of by an excellent dealer with a simple phone call today. For almost five years I've used him and he's awesome. I appreciate him making it easy.

Lionel QC is still a joke, IMO. I just got lucky to get good cars.

I love my K Line 21 and 18" cars, but it's impossible to compare the Excursion cars. For a UP modeler like myself, the Excursion cars blow the older cars out of the water! Like the MTH cars, the K Line UP cars were generic. Lionel has given us the correct UP riveted roof, correct domes and other details.


----------



## WITZ 41

Nice to see you dodged the major problems. I agree with everything you said about the look and details. I really wanted an in service set to 2-rail and run behind my E7 but I worry the QC problems won't be addressed. Or worse, they'll somehow cut corners on the next release to cut more costs. I suspect they won't bother to add proper in service diaphragms either.

Great pics. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Traindiesel

Craignor said:


> What a disaster: lack of passengers, visible hanging wires, the lack of shielding of the electronics in the sound car (on another livery), trucks unattached, punched in windows, bad paint job, and those awefull thumb tack couplers.
> 
> No warranty, No spare parts, makes it even worse.
> 
> I have bought lots of passenger cars over the last two decades, MTH Premier and Railking, Atlas, Lionel, RMT, K-Line, and none of those sets had ANY of these issues.
> 
> This is a new low for O gauge passenger cars IMO, and an expensive one at that.
> 
> Lionel should be ashamed.


Also the lack of full prototypicality _(is that a word?)_ as Lionel had declared for the Excursion Set. And since there's nowhere else to go to get a different manufacturer in O gauge for this set, this is what we're left with: Just being happy that our new set isn't broken when we receive it.

My dealer said my set is on the way. I was hoping to expand the set with future add-ons or supplement the set with some of the Challenger set cars. But I think at the price point of these cars are at, I'm going to sit on my hands and just keep it to the seven car set and cut my losses. Only if future add-ons or the Challenger cars get rave reviews will I possibly add them. But I'm not pre-ordering anything Lionel anytime soon. 

I've ordered some other Lionel items that have mentioned problems on these pages and OGR. I haven't experienced any of them yet only because I currently don't have an operating layout to see the problems yet. But I'll be bracing myself.

It's sad to me to see this happen, as I love Lionel and all the other importers. But as far as pre-ordering goes, I think I've reached my limit on abusing myself. I'm falling into the camp of needing to see trains operating before buying, just like the old days.


----------



## Yellowstone Special

86TA355SR said:


> Opened my set tonight. Overall, I'm pleased.
> 
> The observation car is beautiful, as are the rest of the cars. They're much heavier than I thought they'd be for being ABS.
> 
> View attachment 421873
> 
> 
> I love this detail-"Union Pacific" vertically between the grab irons. I was impressed to see this and thought for certain it'd be overlooked!
> 
> The claws will be going to the trash.
> 
> View attachment 421881
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No big deal, some wires hanging down. Each car has an "on/off" switch for the lights. I will probably have all mine turned off anyway...
> 
> ALL of my cars had small pieces of foam 'floating' on them. At first, I thought they were paint chips. A quick wipe and the foam was gone. Not sure where the foam came from, the cars come in plastic 'shells' and in clear plastic.
> 
> View attachment 421889
> 
> 
> I'm not OK with this! It's not a chip, it seems to be a chemical or something was spilled on the car. I tried to remove it and no luck, so it'll be returned tomorrow.
> 
> View attachment 421897
> 
> 
> ...Or grey paint missing from the right side of the flag car. I can't tell if it was shipping or left the factory this way. Originally, I was going touch the paint up myself, but later decided the 2 pack will be returned tomorrow for a replacement.
> 
> View attachment 421905
> 
> 
> Given the QC issues we're all aware of, I'm quite pleased with mine. Other than the paint issues shown above, no trucks falling off, no damaged windows, no missing grab irons, etc. I feel for those who received a mess when they opened the box. Guess I got lucky!
> 
> I was hoping for more Excursion cars in the future, instead Lionel did the "Challenger" as an in-service train. I will be making more cars for my Excursion train, a correct generator car, and adding some details. Good times ahead!
> 
> 
> 
> Hope those who ordered the AFT are as lucky as I am!


Lucky? I didn't order these cars. But one of the first negative features I noticed from the photos of these plastic things is the flimsy-looking, toy-like appearance of the thumb tack uncoupling mechanism underneath the car ends. One would think that for premium cars like these, Lionel would have at least stuck to the old tried-and-true metal plate at the bottom of the truck mechanism. At least it's out of sight and looks a lot cleaner.

My old, Crown Edition Williams set has the metal plate mechanism and I've never had any problem with them in 30 years.









For all the delays, excuses, pricing, and flaws that characterize this set, Lionel should have known better. I know we all loved Lionel as kids. But it's just not our fathers' Lionel anymore, and hasn't been for some time.


----------



## Norton

To Lionel's credit the first run of their plastic 21" cars had none of these defects. The couplers are metal and and don't bend. The thumbtack is there due to the kinematic feature but on the ESE cars at least are mostly hidden by the full width diaphrams.
I only have a single car so can't show how they look coupled together but Eric's trains has done a video of this train. Fast forward to the 39 minute mark to see the cars in action.

The complaint of the first run was the high bolsters which was improved on the second run at the expense of the cheesy couplers and *huge *gap between the cars.

I think the reason to cheapen these cars further has been explained by the marching orders from the holding company.






Pete


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Norton said:


> I think the reason to cheapen these cars further has been explained by the marching orders from the holding company.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete


That's pretty much what I meant by it not being our fathers' Lionel anymore. Sad.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Yellowstone Special said:


> ....
> 
> My old, Crown Edition Williams set has the metal plate mechanism and I've never had any problem with them in 30 years.
> 
> ...
> 
> For all the delays, excuses, pricing, and flaws that characterize this set, Lionel should have known better. I know we all loved Lionel as kids. But it's just not our fathers' Lionel anymore, and hasn't been for some time.


Overall, I prefer the 18" car lengths for passenger trains, because they just "look better" on my layout. And since I already owned a nice Lionel UP 18" aluminum (remember that?) passenger set with people inside (remember that too?), I never SERIOUSLY considered Lionel's latest UP Excursion Set. So I purchased MTH's latest UP baggage/flag car (with both doors painted in the flag graphics on each side of the car) to go along with MTH's earlier flag car (with the yellow doors inside the flag) -- both of which look great with the Lionel cars. And even those MTH cars have the hidden coupler/uncoupler plate between the wheels.

Puzzling that Lionel has gone back to the button tabs in this day and age. 

David


----------



## 86TA355SR

WITZ 41 said:


> Nice to see you dodged the major problems. I agree with everything you said about the look and details. I really wanted an in service set to 2-rail and run behind my E7 but I worry the QC problems won't be addressed. Or worse, they'll somehow cut corners on the next release to cut more costs. I suspect they won't bother to add proper in service diaphragms either.
> 
> Great pics. Thanks for sharing.


W.,
Like you, I don't expect any of the QC issues to be addressed. Until a change in leadership occurs, nothing will happen. Even then, the bean counters are still controlling the pocket book and Lionel's destiny, albeit a possible short one if they don't turn things around soon. 

I expect more cuts to save cost...

Like we 'talked' about, I passed on the Challenger. To many unknowns, QC drama, and no faith in the catalog depiction.

Though the design of the Excursion cars are nice, they missed a lot of details. Assuming cost was the reason. I have a plan to fix the detail issues.

And, for those awaiting the UP theater car, it's not accurate. Just a color change.

Whew...I'm off my soap box.


----------



## 86TA355SR

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Puzzling that Lionel has gone back to the button tabs in this day and age.
> 
> David


There are no 'side skirts' on UP passenger cars, so your eye is naturally drawn to the couplers hanging down. Not sure why Lionel choose this design. 

I'm not defending Lionel by any means, just an observation I noticed while checking my cars. 

My theory is they're like web site designers and software updates-the old design works, so let's change it.


----------



## Big Jim

86TA355SR said:


> There are no 'side skirts' on UP passenger cars, so your eye is naturally drawn to the couplers hanging down.


Skirtless lightweight passenger cars are a sight that I do not care for whatsoever. It makes the cars look higher than they already are. That was the first thing that I noticed when the pictures of these cars were posted. YUK!
UP is not the only road with passenger cars with no skirts on the ends. The Milwaukee Road is another that instantly pops into mind, sadly, with their "High Water Hiawatha".


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Although a number of us have speculated about cost-cutting and corporate executive compensation being at the root of Lionel's recent track record I am not sure there's any evidence that the latter really has anything to do with the situation. 

There's a fairly garbled Wiki entry for Lionel LLC at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC that somebody has unhelpfully been editing recently but it records, accurately as far as I know and consistently with earlier versions, that Guggenheim Partners and another investor put over $58 million into Lionel at a stage following its MTH and UP lawsuit difficulties. That's a vast amount of money, which I can't see being easily recoverable out of a business of Lionel's scale and nature. I would not expect its management team to be coining it in such circumstances. Just because you see vast exec. compensation in other sectors does not mean it must be present in this case.

The QC issues seem likely to be more about lack of effective control/supervision of the manufacturing process than anything else. The whole 21" ABS cars project was ambitious but similar to other Lionel initiatives of the past (think Acela) has been a design and build failure in respects that matter to the customer. Lionel is not going to be able to avoid answering for this in the future.


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Side one*:









*Side two:*

















*Notice a missing word?! 
*
I inspected all the cars when they arrived, but I totally missed this-until tonight. Not sure how I didn't notice. 

Will coordinate with the dealer Monday for a replacement. 

Lionel will have lots of the UP cars available at the next warehouse sale!


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

I swear folks, you just can't make this stuff up. Although I'm sure there will be a few Lionel "company men and cheerleaders" on the other forum who absolutely refuse to believe these buyers who've reported factory problems. One fervent Lionel supporter believes the problems can mostly be written off to shipping. So I can't wait to see him explain how shipping caused the "Pacific" lettering to disappear from Aaron's UP Overland car!!!  Then again, he might accuse Aaron of using Photoshop to remove the word "Pacific" in the photos posted!!!  That's how some of these guys think... purely absurd, like it's all some kind of conspiracy to take Lionel down. After all this time, they don't "get it" that we ALL want to see Lionel succeed. When they do, we give them lots of kudos and buy more trains as a result. But when they don't, we're here to remind them that for the dollars we spend, we expect better.

David


----------



## rogruth

I have not had any problems with any bought new Lionel train. The latest new Lionel product I have is the 125th anniversary Coca Cola General set. Maybe I am missing something?
I would be very unhappy to get a UP car as pictured above especially at their cost.
I buy mostly used now.
I am not happy to see this happen to Lionel. Can the situation be fixed?


----------



## Traindiesel

Sighhhhhhh.......

My set is in transit to my home and for the first time ever, I’m almost not looking forward to what I’ll see when I open the boxes. My confidence is not very high, but I hope my luck is.


----------



## Lee Willis

Traindiesel said:


> Sighhhhhhh.......
> 
> My set is in transit to my home and for the first time ever, I’m almost not looking forward to what I’ll see when I open the boxes. My confidence is not very high, but I hope my luck is.


Good luck. I wish you well.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Traindiesel said:


> Sighhhhhhh.......
> 
> My set is in transit to my home and for the first time ever, I’m almost not looking forward to what I’ll see when I open the boxes. My confidence is not very high, but I hope my luck is.


We're rooting for ya, Brian!!!

This production run of 21" cars will forever hold a special place in my heart, since they effectively got me banned from the OGR Forum.  Yes, that's right. Herr Melvin came out of retirement earlier this week to do some "house cleaning" on his forum, after Lionel and bunch of self-appointed forum police set off all kinds of alerts about people posting their early experiences with these 21" cars. Rich, in his typical authoritarian "it's my way or no way" style of management, jumped in and sent emails to those members he felt stepped outside the "OGR way". I was one of the unlucky recipients awarded a detention email from OGR, placing my account in full-moderation status again, a.k.a. OGR's penalty box. It was a day I wasn't gonna tolerate even one word of Rich's BS lectures, so I sent him a response devoid of any sign of remorse whatsoever. (This is a family forum, so you'll need to use your imagination a bit in terms of what I told him. But you definitely don't need to think too hard!) A few hours later my OGR account was disabled, and I'm now _persona non grata_ over there.

So after 17 years, I finally get to join the distinguished club of folks who've told Rich Melvin to take a hike (putting it kindly). Funny how somebody who loves to dish out their crap all the time, tends to be the worst when he's on the receiving end of it.

Now we just need to get more of the sharper OGR forum members -- and there are lots of them -- to come over here to MTF. Karma is a b**ch as the saying goes. And while I wish no specific ill will on anyone, I also wouldn't lose any sleep watching OGR continue its downward spiral into an irrelevant remnant of its former days -- unless of course there's a MAJOR management shake-up with completely new ownership to salvage the organization from the slippery slope it's already on. But how likely is THAT? 
:SELLIT: :SELLIT: Oh wait.... I forgot.... they already tried that last year and there were no takers. 

Oh well... there's a lot more juicy details I could spill that would raise eyebrows. But I'll save those for offline discussions. Let's just say the advertisers really own OGR now, and they're not gonna let candid, real-world product review comments stand without heads rolling. My departure was a clear example of that, and I'm sure Rich will get lots of "brownie points" from Lionel when he tells them he gave me the boot off OGR. And the funny (ironic) thing is I thought my comments about those 21" cars were pretty accurate and balanced overall. I even gave Lionel a few kudos for bringing back the StationSounds diners and for taking a chance with the multi-color Penn Central train. All in all, a pretty solid and well-balanced commentary. So if Rich had a problem with that, I'd say he's still gonna have his hands full with the guys who really ripped into the product!!! Unless he gave them the boot too. Bottom line... it's classic OGR management style: keep the membership off balance, and then they don't know what's safe to say and not say. So they don't say anything. Meanwhile, they're gonna need to hire a full-time moderator over there.  

If you begin to show ANY sign of personality whatsoever in your posts, then you're slapped back into the OGR "culture" or shown the door. Is it effective? Well, I did notice one of the relatively younger posters literally ripped Lionel a new one for the quality of his Penn Central cars a few days ago. But tonight he was gushing with praises for Lionel over the Burlington Northern cars he just received. Don't get me wrong... I'm happy for the guy. But it was a "night-and-day" transformation... almost too good to be true, as if he'd been reprimanded and/or told he'd be spending time in the penalty box, if he posted any further comments about cars arriving with "issues". So maybe there IS something to be said for that hard-lined management style. But hey, I'm too old for that crap now, and that style of management was never my cup-of-tea anyway. 

By the way, if you expect Lionel to step up and take responsibility for the issues that folks encountered with these latest 21" cars, THAT. AIN'T. GONNA. HAPPEN. Because they're in denial. Rich relayed a message that a Lionel staffer sent him. And let's just say it's likely gonna be business-as-usual for quite a while regarding these QC issues. So if we can't cure our need to buy new trains, then we better hope and pray that we're very, VERY lucky with the products we receive.

Now more than EVER, it's becoming painfully clear why Mike Reagan moved on from Lionel.  We all knew down deep that wasn't a good sign. And that's all I'm gonna say. 

David


----------



## Rover

Traindiesel said:


> ...... My confidence is not very high, but I hope my luck is.


Here’s another “GOOD LUCK” wish coming your way.
-


----------



## Rover

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> So after 17 years, I finally get to join the distinguished club of folks who've told Rich Melvin to take a hike . . . .
> 
> David


David,
You now are indeed in a distinguished club. - :appl: -
It brings to mind something a very wise statesman once said,
and I quote, “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.”

Sincerely,
Tom
-


----------



## HarborBelt1970

Good luck from me too Brian. As the recipient of an intact set of Excursion cars I think I lucked out although we have no hard info as to the proportion of them that shipped with defects.  That it was too many is obvious, as increasingly is the fact that the factory rushed these out. Why we may never be told.


----------



## seayakbill

It is a sorry state of affairs that you spend a grand on a set of passenger cars and you are concerned that the quality is in the gutter.

Bill


----------



## Yellowstone Special

Hey David, I was laughing out loud into the computer screen, reading your latest experience of being kicked out of the OGR forum. Now that is a hoot!

I was part of the original migration from there to here almost 3 years ago and haven't looked back. For Rich to basically come out of retirement and try to clean house in his precious forum to me is hilarious.  

But you shouldn't have been treated that way. One O scale forum is enough for me, anyway: This one.


----------



## Guest

Rover said:


> It brings to mind something a very wise statesman once said,
> and I quote, “Truth is treason in the empire of lies.”
> -


Perfect quote Rover! It sums up so much of what the OGR is all about. Reminds me of another quote that might explain the return of RM for house cleaning purposes: “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.” 

Emile


----------



## 86TA355SR

Traindiesel said:


> Sighhhhhhh.......
> 
> My set is in transit to my home and for the first time ever, I’m almost not looking forward to what I’ll see when I open the boxes. My confidence is not very high, but I hope my luck is.


Wishing you the best. I've sent a third of mine back. 



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> .... So after 17 years, I finally get to join the distinguished club of folks who've told Rich Melvin to take a hike (putting it kindly)....
> ....By the way, if you expect Lionel to step up and take responsibility for the issues that folks encountered with these latest 21" cars, THAT. AIN'T. GONNA. HAPPEN. Because they're in denial. Rich relayed a message that a Lionel staffer sent him. And let's just say it's likely gonna be business-as-usual for quite a while regarding these QC issues. So if we can't cure our need to buy new trains, then we better hope and pray that we're very, VERY lucky with the products we receive.....
> 
> .....Now more than EVER, it's becoming painfully clear why Mike Reagan moved on from Lionel.  We all knew down deep that wasn't a good sign. And that's all I'm gonna say.
> 
> David


Good for you! You'll never look back! I received a similar e-mail at the beginning of the year and promptly logged out of their site. I'm an adult, make my own decisions and won't have the _censorship_/_drama_ over there. Enough said. 

As you said, nothing from Lionel on the mess they delivered. Not one statement anywhere, FB, (other forums) or their site. It's hard to deny QC issues in the internet era! Remaining silent is one tactic!

I'm mostly into 2R now, but the Challenger set was tempting. Until the Excursion cars arrived with QC issues. Made it really easy to pass on items in the 2018 catalog. 

I'm sure Mike R is glad he moved on!



HarborBelt1970 said:


> ..... we have no hard info as to the proportion of them that shipped with defects.  That it was too many is obvious, as increasingly is the fact that the factory rushed these out. Why we may never be told.


My dealer went through 4 sets before he found a good replacement to exchange my set with....just saying!



seayakbill said:


> It is a sorry state of affairs that you spend a grand on a set of passenger cars and you are concerned that the quality is in the gutter.
> 
> Bill


Agree Bill. Let's just say the phone call I had with Lionel showed no remorse. I won't be needing my credit card for anymore Lionel orders...


----------



## Larry Sr.

Wow David ! 

Two remarks definitely gave me a smile ...so true , so true.

Funny how somebody who loves to dish out their crap all the time, tends to be the worst when he's on the receiving end of it.[/U]


 Let's just say the advertisers really own OGR now, and they're not gonna let candid, real-world product review comments stand without heads rolling.

Larry


----------



## Big Jim

_ Let's just say the advertisers really own OGR now, and they're not gonna let candid, real-world product review comments stand without heads rolling._

Yes Dave, you are right about that! 

When I suggested that OGR (and CTT) step up for its customers, look what happened. The thread was closed! And, in a personal conversation I was told in no uncertain terms would OGR go to bat against Lionel and the way Lionel is treating its customers!


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Flag Car*


----------



## Craignor

The flag car looks nice if you can get one without damage. Even if you get a good one, there is still the lack of passengers, and the goofy thumbtacks. I still can’t believe they cheaped out on the passengers, and went back to the thumbtacks, this shows me that Lionel don’t know, or care, what we want, and what we have come to expect.

David,

Too bad you got kicked out. As much as the other place is criticized here, it still has the most action of all the forums. I am still there, sometimes when I see someone being harassed there, I send them an email telling them about this place, and the freedom we enjoy here.


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Portland Rose*


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Generator Car*


----------



## HarborBelt1970

86TA355SR said:


> Wishing you the best. I've sent a third of mine back.
> 
> My dealer went through 4 sets before he found a good replacement to exchange my set with....just saying!


As a matter of scientific interest, and not mere morbid curiosity, which of the cars did you have to send back? Nobody (here or on the other place) seems to have had a defective flag baggage car, which is a little odd unless those were built at a stage when the factory was not rushing things.

Incidentally, in case anyone is unaware of but interested in this, Lionel has responded to OGR threads on the kinematic coupler and wires-visible-through-windows issues. Then the thread-closing started.


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Katy Flyer*


----------



## 86TA355SR

*City of San Francisco*


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Challenger*


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Overland*

Waiting on return from dealer, photos soon!


----------



## 86TA355SR

HarborBelt1970 said:


> As a matter of scientific interest, and not mere morbid curiosity, which of the cars did you have to send back? Nobody (here or on the other place) seems to have had a defective flag baggage car, which is a little odd unless those were built at a stage when the factory was not rushing things.
> 
> Incidentally, in case anyone is unaware of but interested in this, Lionel has responded to OGR threads on the kinematic coupler and wires-visible-through-windows issues. Then the thread-closing started.


Sure, I returned a 2 pack and the diner. Pics in this thread of the flag car, mine had paint missing on the end, red overspray on the grey roof, and the other car had a paint issue by the lettering.

The diner was missing the word "Pacific" on one side.

I should return the Challenger car-today I noticed a mark down one side. Looks like a pencil mark between the windows. Would've posted pictures but battery died on camera.

Honestly, I'm tired of going to FDX to return these. I've returned a third of what I bought.

Appreciate my dealer and all the effort he made to fix Lionel's problem.


----------



## rogruth

The photos of these UP cars are very nice and the cars are beautiful. I know nothing about them, either real or model and I certainly understand everyones concern. I would not buy them because they would be terribly out of place on my layout. I have been becoming more upset wiyh what I have been reading about Lionel and QC. Lionel has been the backbone of 3R O for many years but with these issues the fate of our hobby becomes more clouded.

I few words about the forums. I first learned about forums from the pushing of their own in OGR mag. I got little response to my questions at that time Found the CTT forum in that mag and thought it to be uninteresting. Somehow I found MTJ, the forum of misfits,
got answers and have been there ever since. I don't know how I found MTF but am glad that I did. Many folks here with good answers. Model Train Journal is different, all O scale, both 2 & 3 R. Not everyone likes MTJ but you don't get dumped on for stating your opinion. I only visit OGR and CTT when given a link by a poster for a specific article.


----------



## Traindiesel

Thank you gentlemen for the well wishes for my UP set. Still waiting for it's arrival.



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> We're rooting for ya, Brian!!!
> 
> This production run of 21" cars will forever hold a special place in my heart, since they effectively got me banned from the OGR Forum.  Yes, that's right. Herr Melvin came out of retirement earlier this week to do some "house cleaning" on his forum, after Lionel and bunch of self-appointed forum police set off all kinds of alerts about people posting their early experiences with these 21" cars........
> 
> .....Let's just say the advertisers really own OGR now, and they're not gonna let candid, real-world product review comments stand without heads rolling.
> 
> .....And the funny (ironic) thing is I thought my comments about those 21" cars were pretty accurate and balanced overall. I even gave Lionel a few kudos for bringing back the StationSounds diners and for taking a chance with the multi-color Penn Central train. All in all, a pretty solid and well-balanced commentary.
> 
> .....By the way, if you expect Lionel to step up and take responsibility for the issues that folks encountered with these latest 21" cars, THAT. AIN'T. GONNA. HAPPEN. Because they're in denial. Rich relayed a message that a Lionel staffer sent him. And let's just say it's likely gonna be business-as-usual for quite a while regarding these QC issues. So if we can't cure our need to buy new trains, then we better hope and pray that we're very, VERY lucky with the products we receive.
> 
> Now more than EVER, it's becoming painfully clear why Mike Reagan moved on from Lionel.  We all knew down deep that wasn't a good sign. And that's all I'm gonna say.
> 
> David


David, having read your posts, both here and on OGR, although you've taken Lionel to task for their persistent QC issues, I read it as constructive criticism hoping for Lionel to be the company they have built their reputation on. And you have offered praise where warranted. I saw nothing that was offensive in any way.

However, if it was Lionel reps that complained about what was being said about a slew of inferior products which cause you to be banned from OGR, I don't know which is more sad. That Lionel doesn't care about their own product, or that OGR has to submit to the importers will. I haven't looked for a few days, but were all the pictures of defects deleted too?

For Lionel to play 'ostrich' over the photographic evidence means to me that they are catering to the collector who just buys anything Lionel, puts it in a closet, then tries to sell them ten years from now. And those collectors will have a surprise when they can't sell unopened boxes of these cars because of the mostly known defects. And Lionel will play indifferent to a product cataloged ten years prior.

I can't say I'll never buy Lionel again, regardless of the condition of my Excursion set. But I'll be sure not to pre-order and only buy if I can see it first. If I lose out on a BTO product, the sun will still shine the next day.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

Traindiesel said:


> ....
> For Lionel to play 'ostrich' over the photographic evidence means to me that they are catering to the collector who just buys anything Lionel, puts it in a closet, then tries to sell them ten years from now. And those collectors will have a surprise when they can't sell unopened boxes of these cars because of the mostly known defects. And Lionel will play indifferent to a product cataloged ten years prior.
> 
> ....


Brian, I'll address your other comments in a follow-on post. But this caught my eye, because I mentioned this VERY point over on OGR -- namely that Lionel may not see the urgency to focus on factory QC problems, because there's a mindset that a good percentage of buyers still might be stashing these products away in storage. So those buyers won't realize they have a "problem product" until years down the road.

*And that entire train-of-thought in my post was DELETED by one of the OGR moderators.* It was just yet another example of folks taking the time to formulate a well-thought-out post, only to have somebody at OGR selectively edit the post. Again, it all goes back to OGR constantly second-guessing the poster, because they now need to be overly concerned that an advertiser doesn't get offended. Ironically, it's almost like every post over there is now suddenly "content in a magazine article" that is subject to the editor's review before it goes to publication. Yet forum members didn't really sign up for their posts being picked apart like that. The TOS doesn't explicitly state it. But effectively, every post that's made over there is now treated as part of the new OGR "brand", which must be "approved" by the moderators -- either directly or indirectly. When folks post photos and videos of their trains, there's no issue. But when "discussion topics" arise, folks unknowingly enter a grey zone of inadvertently saying something that moderators (or their minions) won't like. 

There's also another subtle point of irony in all of this: namely, OGR has created its own moderator's nightmare by cow-towing to advertisers and forum sponsors in such a way that they now feel the need to scrutinize content at an almost full-time level. But that's exactly the world of OGR now. And when push comes to shove, you see where their loyalties reside. Advertiser dollars (or the anxieties over losing those dollars) now drive the content -- not the members whose presence on the forum generates the "ad value" that allows ads to be sold in the first place. Consequently, there's zero journalistic integrity in that kind of environment... at least not the kind I once respected. 

David


----------



## highvoltage

So it's really no longer a forum. Just a place to post heavily edited comments.


----------



## Yellowstone Special

highvoltage said:


> So it's really no longer a forum. Just a place to post heavily edited comments.


Bingo! And why would anyone with a brain stem want to do that?


----------



## 86TA355SR

*Update 3/22*

My dealer is the best, today UPS delivered a defect free replacement 2 pack! 

One of the trucks fell off when putting a car back into the box. Taken out of box once and the truck retaining clip broke. Unbelievable!

I sure won't be needing my credit card for any future Lionel products.


----------



## Traindiesel

The funny / tragic thing is that Lionel could care less. At least until their future pre-orders fall into the abyss.


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ....
> Honestly, I'm tired of going to FDX to return these. I've returned a third of what I bought.
> 
> Appreciate my dealer and all the effort he made to fix Lionel's problem.





86TA355SR said:


> ....
> As you said, nothing from Lionel on the mess they delivered. Not one statement anywhere, FB, (other forums) or their site. It's hard to deny QC issues in the internet era! Remaining silent is one tactic!
> ....
> 
> My dealer went through 4 sets before he found a good replacement to exchange my set with....just saying!
> ....





86TA355SR said:


> My dealer is the best, today UPS delivered a defect free replacement 2 pack!
> 
> One of the trucks fell off when putting a car back into the box. Taken out of box once and the truck retaining clip broke. Unbelievable!
> 
> I sure won't be needing my credit card for any future Lionel products.


So here's a great exercise for anyone who wants a reality check as to whether the roll-out of these cars was successful or not: Read the above posts (as well as others on the last few pages of this thread), and note the overall tone of frustration. Now go read PAGE 1 of this thread, and note the opposite -- and more favorable -- tone of excitement when high expectations were being set. Notice how evident the difference is???  

WOW!!! This nearly 30-page thread (as of this post tonight) represents a largely unedited chronology starting with the emotional highs of enthusiasts who were ecstatic when these passenger cars were first previewed in Lionel's 2015 Volume 2 catalog... thru the endless overseas production delays... and then onto the emotional lows of some buyers dealing with multiple product returns before finally getting a set they could be happy owning. 

Still wanna characterize these problems as "minor defects"?  And the above quotes only begin to scratch the surface of what's been reported. In my eyes, "minor" would be something like a plastic smokestack is missing from a smoking caboose, and the customer only needs to call Lionel in order to get the small part shipped out right away. THAT's minor.

But when somebody needs to make multiple trips to their shipping carrier to return multiple items -- not to mention paying for the return-shipping of defective items PLUS shipping of the replacement items.... suddenly the cost of these defects (in time and money) starts adding up and the defects aren't so "minor" anymore. 

Some dealers have really taken a beating on these cars. In addition to dealers like Aaron's who went thru 4 sets before providing Aaron a "good set of cars", I personally know two other MAJOR dealers who are managing their inventory of these cars VERY carefully. One dealer still has my Penn Central 4-pack on back order while awaiting a good set of cars to ship. (I already have the StationSounds diner and the 2-pack, but no 4-pack yet.) And another large national dealer has opted to NOT update their website status of these cars to "in stock", so that they can manage their "extra" inventory carefully in the event early pre-order customers need to exchange bad cars from the initial shipment with better ones. In effect, this dealer's business is being adversely affected, since he's not selling his "extra" inventory until the early pre-order customers are satisfied they've received good cars. Hhhmmmm.... THAT doesn't sound like a minor issue to me either.

YET.... in the OGR email I received earlier this week, here's how Herr Melvin characterized these passenger car problems:

"I .... have grown quite tired of your constant bashing of Lionel in almost every post you make. The thread about the Lionel UP passenger cars was the latest example of this nonsense. A few minor defects in the cars led to a multi-page diatribe about Lionel in general and attacks on Lionel personnel, led by you and a few others." _[underlining is my emphasis]_​
Hhmmmm.... bashing?  attacks on Lionel personnel???  There we go with those inflammatory words again. Isn't it amazing how quickly somebody who's just come out of retirement (figuratively speaking) already has sufficient info to characterize _all these problems_ as "minor defects"? And what's this talk about "attacks on Lionel personnel"? The only mention of Lionel personnel I recall was pointing out that the TalkToUs staff doesn't always have accurate information to answer questions when folks contact them. And sometimes, we don't get an answer until a product is unpacked in North Carolina. Which is TRUE.... We're not making that up!!!

Makes me wonder if Herr Melvin ever REALLY read the posts and looked at the photos from forum contributors. OR did he just overreact and jump to creating false narratives after receiving a message from a Lionel staffer??? *BTW, wanna read an excellent article on false narratives? Check out this Forbes article link*.

Sharing the exactly worded message verbatim here would only raise more eyebrows (as it did mine when I read it) due to the choice of words used. However, the essence of the message essentially can be described with these talking points (and I'm being VERY kind here): 

Lionel is frustrated that so many folks have posted negative experiences about these 21" passenger cars online.
Lionel believes the problems are all minor in nature and small in number.
Lionel feels these online discussions are tarnishing their image.
And lastly, Lionel doesn't believe the comments posted are true.
 
Now that's not to be interpreted as Lionel's "official statement" on the matter. Since as far as I'm aware, there hasn't been one yet -- and there might never be one. But the fact that a Lionel staffer chose to contact OGR and expressed those sentiments does speak volumes. 

Which finally brings us to Brian's question that I promised I'd address in a follow-up post....



Traindiesel said:


> ....
> David, having read your posts, both here and on OGR, although you've taken Lionel to task for their persistent QC issues, I read it as constructive criticism hoping for Lionel to be the company they have built their reputation on. And you have offered praise where warranted. I saw nothing that was offensive in any way.
> 
> ....
> 
> However .... I don't know which is more sad. That Lionel doesn't care about their own product, or that OGR has to submit to the importers will. ....



Both of your suppositions are closely related, and it's difficult to separate one from the other. But perhaps what I was told by Herr Melvin in my penalty box email will help clarify things:
".... We will NOT allow you or any one else to jeopardize our relationship with a valued advertiser just because you have a bone to pick with Lionel. ...." _[underlining is my emphasis]_​

BTW, thanks for your words of support, Brian. Very much appreciate the time you spent reviewing my comments. I had hoped that any "reasonable" person would also interpret my comments like you did. But the real world doesn't always work that way. And when heated tempers are added into the mix, all bets are off and hasty decisions get made in more or less a judge, jury and executioner environment. But that's all water under the bridge, and what's done is done. 

I certainly never intended for this "side discussion" to be a distraction from the thread's original intent to document all things related to Lionel's UP Excursion Train project and track progress through to delivery. But I do hope the information outlined here in my last couple of posts has helped give insight into some questions we've all had about the roll-out of this latest batch of Lionel's 21" passenger cars, and whether that roll-out met the expectations initially set over 2 years ago.

Perhaps instead of simply beating their chests to amplify Lionel's unofficial party-line, OGR could have advised Lionel in some type of leadership capacity (after doing some due-diligence) to reach out to folks who actually bought these items and get a TRUE temperature reading of the situation. Maybe suggest Lionel even conduct some kind of survey that best describes most people's buying experience with these items, something like:


Happy with the passenger cars as they were first shipped to me. Met all my initial expectations completely!
Happy with my passenger cars, but needed to return one item for exchange.
Happy with my passenger cars, but needed to return an item (or items) multiple times for exchange.
Happy with my passenger cars. Didn't return any items for exchange, but needed to do SOME work to reach my initial expectation level.
Happy with my passenger cars. Didn't return any items for exchange, but needed to do LOTS of work to reach my initial expectation level.
Completely unhappy with the passenger cars, and returned them for refund.

Signing off on this topic for now, since I think I've exhausted what I can add of any value.... at least until I receive my 4-pack of Penn Central passenger cars. Like everyone else here, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll receive a good set, and that the extra long wait will be worth avoiding any product hassles. 

David


----------



## rogruth

Every thing I have read in this topic for the past several pages is very sad.
Lionel SHOULD be concerned.


----------



## Big Jim

Dave,
I agree with Brian, as I too read it as "constructive criticism".

_Both of your suppositions are closely related, and it's difficult to separate one from the other. But perhaps what I was told by Herr Melvin in my penalty box email will help clarify things:
".... We will NOT allow you or any one else to jeopardize our relationship with a valued advertiser just because you have a bone to pick with Lionel. ...." [underlining is my emphasis]
_
This was basically the same thing that Alan Arnold sent to me. Sadly it is clear to see that this is all about the money and absolutely _NOTHING_ about the good of the Hobby!


----------



## Craignor

I see at the other place others are hoping Lionel next makes 21” cars in AutoTrain and other configurations.

If I could speak freely over there, I would say “I don’t know what you guys are smoking but I don’t think it’s time for Lionel to dream up new 21” cars, but it’s time for Lionel to STOP everything, and evaluate what’s going on, and how to get back on the right track.


----------



## Big Jim

That was the first thing that popped into my mind!


----------



## 86TA355SR

I reviewed several forums today and read a lot of threads about the Excursion cars, something I haven't done until now. Needless to say, there's a common theme about the QC issues. So, I can't imagine it's a _minor defect_ as quoted by someone else...but, we _knew_ THAT!

I'd venture to say there were more defective cars than good delivered. 

Surprised at least one other received a diner missing "Pacific" on one side!

It's funny David pointed out the tone of this thread from beginning to now. I reviewed the whole thread a few nights ago and the same chain of events went through my mind. 

I waited on the GGD Harriman cars about the same amount of time. Beautiful cars and not one QC issue. Wish I would've bought a second set and I'm kicking myself for not doing just that. Can't say the same about Excursion cars.


----------



## davidone

I posted on a ogr thread that the original poster had a positive post about Lionel listening to his thoughts and ideas.

I posted that wow a positive post about Lionel and I wondered if this thread would be deleted like the several threads about the 21" passenger cars. 

Well to say the least ogr did not like my post and deleted my post within an hour. Guess they can't take critical comments. It seems that when Lionel complains about threads, OGR jumps. 

Dave


----------



## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> ....
> I'd venture to say there were more defective cars than good delivered.
> ....


I noticed somebody over on the other forum posted that the dealer who provided his original UP Excursion set (which happened to be defective) has now exhausted his supply of "extra" inventory to replace any faulty cars that were initially shipped. So the buyer is now looking for another dealer to provide him a UP Excursion set. Meanwhile, dealers taking the defective sets back for refund can't really sell these defective sets again. So they'll likely return the cars to Lionel for credit. In which case, it's gonna be a hoot to see what Lionel does with the defective cars -- maybe break some down for parts, or perhaps try to refurbish _some_ of the cars with the more minor defects and sell them at their November warehouse sale event. :hah:

On an encouraging note, I received a FedEx alert email this afternoon that a package is arriving tomorrow (Saturday) from Charles Ro. From the info provided, this package might be my long-awaited Penn Central 4-pack. I've had the StationSounds Diner and 2-pack for a good 3 weeks, and I've been waiting patiently for the 4-pack. I ordered the Penn Central set very late in the game -- just earlier this year. So I'm pretty sure my set is coming out of the "extras" inventory that Charlie ordered at Lionel's catalog pre-order deadline. And as such, Charlie may not have fulfilled those late-in-the-game orders until he was sure he didn't need the "extras" to use as replacements for defective pre-order sets that shipped first. Can't say this with 100% certainty in every case, but it could certainly explain the delay and disjointed product shipment -- not to mention that the PC 4-pack SKU has been removed off of Charlie's website for over a couple of weeks now. So he's essentially no longer taking orders for that SKU anymore. I'll just be glad to finally get my hands on a good PC 4-pack w/o defects, since I don't want to go hunting for one from another dealer at this stage in the game. Some dealers are already increasing prices of the "good cars" remaining in inventory to help mitigate the time wasted and missed-sales-opportunities caused by this product roll-out plagued with a variety of QC issues.

Yes.... "a few minor defects" indeed! 

David


----------



## Traindiesel

Craignor said:


> I see at the other place others are hoping Lionel next makes 21” cars in AutoTrain and other configurations.
> 
> If I could speak freely over there, I would say “I don’t know what you guys are smoking but I don’t think it’s time for Lionel to dream up new 21” cars, but it’s time for Lionel to STOP everything, and evaluate what’s going on, and how to get back on the right track.


Not a chance until they start losing more money!


----------



## Traindiesel

Well, my UP Excursion Car set finally arrived this afternoon. With all the anxiety and photographic proof of defects, I was in no mood to even open them. I just put the box in our office to add them to my inventory later and closed the door.

But then my curiosity got the best of me. Better to find out now so I could sleep tonight and then send back the defective cars tomorrow. I kept the office door closed so the cats wouldn't come in and possibly get injured during my anticipated rage.

Even as I was opening the shipping cartons I could feel myself tensing up. I opened the four pack first, then the StationSounds diner, then the two pack.

I looked them all over, and _*OH MY GOSH!!!*_, they were all in great shape! I must live a charmed life! No paint defects, no smudges, all the words were on the cars, no broken step ladders, no hanging wires, no falling trucks!! They were all good, even after shipping from the east coast. But not entirely perfect.

On the baggage car one of the trucks had a hard time turning side to side. It seems that the car floor was pushed to far up inside the shell, causing the truck to rub on the bottom of the shell. I'm not a 'modeler', I'm an out of the box runner, but I think even I could fix that.

I'm happy with my set, but I'm not fooled or dazzled _(well, maybe a little dazzled, as I am by most trains)_, but it doesn't change my position that I'm not pre-ordering Lionel products in the near future.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

86TA355SR said:


> .....
> 
> View attachment 424362
> _[photo of the UP Overland car missing the word "PACIFIC"]_
> 
> .....


I recall back in the "collector heydays", Greenberg Publishing would often publish price guides that would call out factory errors like you've stumbled upon here, Aaron. And they'd often quote unbelievable price premiums for them, simply because there would supposedly be only one or a very small number of such rarities in existence.

Of course, hind-sight is always 20/20. And today as model train operators (vs. pure toy train collectors), we look back in time through a very different set of eye-glasses and wonder: Did anybody EVER pay those price premiums for so-called factory errors? Or was it all a facade by those "in the industry" who created an aura of owning something rare and super-valuable? :dunno: As Gordon Gekko explained to his protege Bud Fox in the movie _Wall Street:_ _"The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more desperately they want it."_ 

Funny how our perspective changes, and the perception of what's important shifts. Back in the 1970's -1990's, toy train enthusiasts would have been tripping over each other to grab one of these factory errors at a train show or off a retail store display shelf. Today? Nobody gives a factory error like this a second glance, so we're ready to exchange it at the dealer for the correct model in a heartbeat.

The pendulum has indeed swung to a very different place. Not necessarily a better or worse place -- but a different one. Just sayin' ..... 

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Brian,

Great news on what sounds like a reasonably good arrival of your UP Excursion set. You deserve a terrific train set. I just hope I'm as lucky with what I believe will be my Penn Central 4-pack arriving tomorrow, since the StationSounds diner and 2-pack already look pretty good. Fingers crossed.....

David


P.S. For some reason, as I was reading the post that described your reluctance to open your new train shipment, I couldn't help but think of this move clip from _Gung Ho_, a 1986 movie directed by the very talented Ron Howard. I can't help but surmise there are lots of similarities between Lionel's real-life overseas factory and Assan Motors in this movie scene. The only difference being, I don't think anybody from Lionel Stateside told its factory workers, "You will fix those trains before they leave the factory." Or if they did, the factory didn't listen!!!  I figure we all need a good laugh after the last couple of weeks we've had in toy train land. Enjoy!!!


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## Enon49

Rocky Mountaineer - - - Liked your discussion "point" 

Loved the movie clip

Mr Toad


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## HarborBelt1970

*A postscript to this thread*

I have had the chance to consider the build quality of my (fortunately) intact set of 7 UP Excursion cars and also compare it with the set of first run Texas Special cars I've had for a couple of years now. Although I have reached the conclusion that had I known what these cars would be like I would probably only have gone in for one set (the UP), they both rate some comment beyond that. 

Overall the variety of 21" ABS cars produced by Lionel was a very ambitious project that has not lived up to its billing. The reason for my dissatisfaction is the amount of work required to make these cars look as good as they should - quite apart from repairing any factory assembly errors where that is possible.

I have had the Texas Special dome car apart for a while preparing to install LED lighting in the dome. I've learned that overhead lighting is not prototypical but I don't care; the lack of overhead lighting in the dome section makes the car seem incomplete/dull. (Besides, the MKT/Frisco never had dome cars in the Texas Special trains but I'm ignoring that - except for whimsical purposes explained below.) Lionel had square openings moulded in the floor of the dome section to resemble the floor lighting in dome seating but in daylight this attempt at illumination just does not work.

I've posted this photo before but for present purposes it helps show the lighting and window placement on what might be the signature car of the Excursion set, namely the City of San Francisco dome lounge/observation car:









Note that at the forward third of the car there is no window on the right side; and on the left side there is just one. This is basically a prototypical window placement, which is one of the things Lionel said way back when was an advantage of ABS body shells. I have borrowed these next two photos from the poster on OGR who is detailing what seems to be at least four or five full sets of the 21" cars. Top view is of the left side and bottom is the same angle and side as my photo:
















The other dome car in the set, the Challenger, has a very different window placement with windows all along both sides of the car and again this is prototypical. 

There the advantage of Lionel's approach really stops because - although the photos slightly mask this - the monochrome light yellow of the interiors is just too plain. Among other things it conceals such moulded-in details as are included. I'm not suggesting that Lionel could and should have included a color scheme like the real dome observation but what they took from it (like the tables with cup holder insets) just doesn't show up in the uniform color used; here's UP's own page on this car:









Pretty gaudy in an old Pullman Palace Car kind of way but if you want to produce even a rough representation of the real thing or maybe just put in passengers for color, it is no small job to do so on one car let alone a 7 car set (or 2 or 5).

I have not opened up either of the UP dome cars yet but I know what to expect from other people's photos and working on the first run Texas Special dome car. Underneath the dome there's this odd construction (top photo UP, bottom Texas Special after being painted):









Why there's an enclosed area in the middle of this I can't figure out although it's handy for placing the power supply to the LED dome lights I want to install. This moulding is undoubtedly common to all the 21" ABS dome cars and an issue is that the uprights/partitions end up placed in some of the cars' side windows, which seems odd and unsightly to say the least. You can see them in my car and a picture posted by Aaron earlier in this thread (although he also has the hanging wire problem, which is relatively easily fixed but never should have happened):









Maybe all these upright sections were necessary as part of the moulding process - they don't support anything above them - but I reckon they can be cut away to form a new compartment, although that will require putting in details and passengers. 

Anyway, where I have got to so far on the Texas Special dome car is shown below. I have found this car to be fairly sturdy in both the frame and body shell and it was a 5 minute job to separate them. But once you do, the interior really can't be left (a) unpopulated and (b) the same dark color throughout, so I had a go at it; no passengers yet as I know installing them will be tedious. 

However, bearing in mind this is a complete fantasy car I did not feel limited in my choice of features. In particular, when I happened on a bottle of paint called "Royal Ruby" and remembered that this is supposedly a Missouri-Kansas-Texas car, I put two and two together and came up with "we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto." I know all that imagery has been hijacked in other contexts but at about the last stages of the MKT's passenger service I was still a kid watching the Wizard of Oz every Easter and so the interior got the Ruby/Emerald treatment:









Eventually so will the other cars but thinking about the effort involved gives me a case of buyer's remorse.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

HarborBelt1970 said:


> I have had the chance to consider the build quality of my (fortunately) intact set of 7 UP Excursion cars and also compare it with the set of first run Texas Special cars I've had for a couple of years now. ....


HarborBelt1970,

I too purchased the Texas Special passenger cars a couple of years ago, but only because I let my Charles Ro pre-order of the original 18" aluminum version of these transfer into the 21" cars after Lionel CANCELLED production of the 18" aluminum version.  I would have MUCH preferred Lionel produce their Texas Special train in one of the last 18" aluminum production runs. But sadly, Lionel chose the silver Pennsy and SP cars along with the yellow UP and Milwaukee Road cars for that honor. 

I was very much on the fence about keeping my 21" Texas Special cars, but in the end opted to do so since I had gone to the trouble of sourcing TWO Texas Special SD70ACe locomotives to double-head the "red train". I almost forgot about it until I went back to read one of my "Texas Special: first look" posts on the other forum several years ago. Sure enough, I had to return my StationSounds Dining Car because -- guess what? -- one of the trucks had fallen off the body as soon as I opened the box.  Charlie Ro exchanged it with a defect-free unit no questions asked. But it just goes to show that even back in the first production run of 21" passenger cars, Lionel had issues with trucks falling off the cars. So not much has changed today -- nor is it likely to in future runs.

Anybody who characterizes these problems as "a few minor defects" (as I was directly told last week in no uncertain terms) doesn't know what they're talking about. But I think we already knew that. 

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Hi folks,

I had hoped to post a video of my Penn Central train over the weekend; however, FedEx delayed delivery of my 4-pack until Monday afternoon instead of Saturday.

So like Brian, I opened my latest Lionel shipment Monday evening with bated breath. For the most part, the cars "looked" fine with only one exception: the Connoquessing Creek sleeper car (which had no cosmetic issues per se) had one of its trucks noticeably bent so that only the wheels on the end of the car touched the rails. The wheels toward the inside of the car were elevated off the rails when I placed the car on the track. Upon further inspection, It was more obvious that the inside end of the truck was rubbing up against the floor frame of the car.  I debated doing anything to fix it. But since I waited almost four weeks for this 4-pack to arrive after receiving the other PC cars, I decided to try gently bending the truck mounting in order to let the truck move more freely and allow both wheels to touch the rails -- all while hoping the inside mounting clip wouldn't break. I think I was reasonably successful... about 90% there... as I didn't want to push my luck any further at the moment.  

The real test will be to see how this car tracks through some switch configurations on my layout.... which I was actually about to do with the entire train tonight... when I ran into a rash of problems keeping the cars coupled while capturing video. Sure enough, it appears my Penn Central train has a number of the "defective couplers" that we read about last week on the other forum -- primarily when folks were sharing their frustrating experiences with the UP Excursion cars.

Moral of the story: you may "feel lucky" and own cars that LOOK like the cosmetic fairy was on your side. However, be careful when you actually try to OPERATE the cars. (See I told you that _Gung Ho_ video clip a few posts back had more similarities to real-life train production than we care to believe or admit. ) 

Anyway, it was getting late... so I dispensed with further attempts at the video and concentrated my efforts on fixing the annoying couplers with a little trick I've learned along the way: i.e., installing plastic wire-ties around the coupler stems in order to keep the couplers from opening while trains are in operation. Of course, this isn't something you want to do with freight cars for switching maneuvers.  But for passenger trains and long freight trains when you just wanna sit back and watch the trains roll, this is a good solution. Once in a blue moon, I've encountered a piece of rolling stock with a faulty coupler. But never have I needed to use wire-ties on so many cars in the same train. So later this week I'll get around to stabilizing all the couplers in the train just to play it safe.

Bottom line... it would appear the couplers used in the second production run of these Lionel 21" cars are very prone to failing -- even on the lightest of loads (i.e., the original 7-car train as configured in the catalog). Compare that to my Atlas-O California Zephyr configurations with 12 and 13 cars whose couplers hold together like a charm. Go figure.... Lionel has been manufacturing trains for how many years now? 117 and counting. And in 2018 they deliver passenger trains whose couplers can't operate properly?  What am I missing here? It's not like this is a new feature on these trains. Let's see now.... operating knuckle couplers.... what a novel idea.  

So.... either plan to use black wire-ties if you want to keep the knuckle-couplers as delivered. Or swap the knuckle-couplers out for Kadees -- which appears to be the solution for a number of folks who are detailing the interiors of their UP Excursion Train. For now though, I'll plan to use wire-tires just to get the train running reliably... and perhaps down the road I'll switch over to Kadees.

I must say... despite the shabby production issues (including the use of cheaper couplers), I do like the "concept" of Lionel's Penn Central multi-color train. So much so that I had also pre-ordered a Pennnsy Broadway Limited diner/kitchen 2-pack to add to this train. The BL tuscan color will match the PC Connoquessing sleeper car nicely, and balance out the silver, olive green and black cars already in this Penn Central multi-color consist. I might even take things a step further and add a Conrail dome car or Conrail theatre car to this mix of paint schemes! 

Ironically, I'm still waiting for the Pennsy BL 2-pack's arrival.  Like I said in earlier posts, dealers seem to be selectively sending out their "extra's" inventory ONLY when they're comfortable that clients who received earlier shipments are satisfied. And since I ordered the PC and Pennsy BL cars late in the game, I've been receiving this train in multiple shipments: first the PC StationSounds diner and PC 2-pack; followed by the PC 4-pack almost a month later; and now still awaiting arrival of the Pennsy BL 2-pack. A bit unusual to say the least, but I think we're pretty much getting the picture now that there's nothing "normal" about this saga of Lionel's rollout of passenger cars. It is what it is though. 

And people are looking for MORE roadnames of these cars????? :dunno: 

David


P.S. For those interested in the Penn Central train, the StationSounds public address and conductor announcements use the name "Manhattan Limited". And the voice talent (except for Timmy and the station's public address system announcer) are different. But the railsounds, dialogs, and station announcements are identical to those on my Amtrak diner that I used with the California Zephyr train in my layout video.


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## Lee Willis

You have done a great job on the interior of the Texas special cars. I really like it. I could go for a set of these cars just for their interiors and the possibilities they provide if the owner wants to do a little work. Like you said, it's only five minutes work to take one apart. But I've decided I'm just not going to go to 21" cars, but stay with 18"

I suppose if you view these cars as "pre-assembled kits requiring some work on the part of the owner," you won't often be disappointed.


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## HarborBelt1970

Lee Willis said:


> I suppose if you view these cars as "pre-assembled kits requiring some work on the part of the owner," you won't often be disappointed.


Fair enough although you are taking pot luck on how far the cars have serious assembly issues that are not spotted by a dealer conscientious enough to check them before shipping. 

I don’t know Lionel’s dealer return policy but it seems likely that Lionel will be stuck with no small number of defective product returns, which I suppose might ultimately lead to a stock of spare parts.

Anyway, I think that the Excursion cars have more potential for detailing than the Texas Special cars. A small bonus is that two cars out of five (generator and flag baggage) have no interiors to grapple with and the San Fran dome observation has a whole third (the front) where the inside is mostly not visible - although as far as I can see Lionel just put in a standard full seating module in that area. That would be relatively easy to take out and replace with something closer to the prototype (see the floor plan in my last post) in the area of the single window.

Thanks for appreciating the Not in Kansas dome car!


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## Lee Willis

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Thanks for appreciating the Not in Kansas dome car!


I think we have known for some time we're not in Kansas anymore!

This is an interesting thread of several counts. I like it a lot.

I too wonder in Lionel will end up with gobs of these returned. If so, they may sell them at their shop north of Charlotte in a "scratch and dent" sale. That would be interesting.


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## Spence

After reading this thread I feel so bad for you guys who bought these products. It's hard to imagine that OGR & Lionel are upset with your posts. You spent all this money and expected perfection. 
This is one of the many reasons I quit buying Lionel several years ago and went with MTH only. (Not that I haven't had a few problems with them but they were resolved).
Lionel is not your fathers trains anymore which is really sad.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Spence said:


> After reading this thread I feel so bad for you guys who bought these products. It's hard to imagine that OGR & Lionel are upset with your posts. You spent all this money and expected perfection.
> ...


Hi Spence,

Perfection would be an added bonus. I'd be happy with products that just WORK!  That shouldn't be too high a bar to expect, so we don't need to invest in a professional tool shop to fix/adjust every product we buy. Lubing axles and other friction points as part of normal preventive maintenance is one thing. But disassembling cars to fix wiring harnesses or swapping couplers to Kadees is getting into another territory for sure. Yet when buyers express their candid feelings in a professional way, THEY'RE made out to be the bad guys over there. 

Both OGR and Lionel lost credibility by trying to reprimand and silence folks who spoke openly in product reviews and discussion topics. Imagine the expectation level that's set for future buyers, if all the product reviews characterized these issues as "a few minor defects"... and then more folks go out and spend $800 for "kits" that need work. There's ZERO journalistic integrity in that. 

New lows were set that effectively sent the message to "just look the other way", and that will only serve to encourage sub-par production of future products as being "acceptable" -- just to salvage a sponsor/advertiser relationship. At the end of the day, Lionel will simply continue to manage its way through these kinds of shoddy production issues until it's no longer financially feasible to do so. When the pre-orders for new products take a huge hit, or when warranty service is burdened to the point of "crying Uncle", THAT's when Lionel might finally begin to address QC issues. Or so it would seem.  

David


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## kstrains

It sad that Lionel customer service has gone down the drain in that they offer no solutions or parts in fixing these cars other than return to dealers. I know that there is always a certain expected percentage for defects for any item that is manufactured. I wondered how high that number is for these 21 inch passenger cars. 

I read recently from a person who posted on TrainWorld's Facebook Page that MTH sent back to Manufacturing plant all the Spirit of the Union, #1943 SD70Ace Premier engines due to paint flaking on them. A recent MTH delivery posting showed that they were supposed to be shipped out during the Month of March along with a couple other SD70Ace's. For awhile I was wondering why dealers were not getting them, but after reading the post on FB; although, not an official post from MTH, it makes more sense why they are not on dealers shelves. I have seen the other SD70Ace's delivered so I assume there was a problem with them. 

I know MTH has its issues too with QC, but I often wonder if MTH does better job with quality control than Lionel. If Lionel had this same predicament with the paint, I wonder if they would ignore it and send the item to dealers anyways. I hear the head guys at Lionel, even with these passenger cars, say they do QC checks when they arrive at Concord, NC but it makes you wonder.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountaineer

kstrains said:


> ....
> 
> I know MTH has its issues too with QC, but I often wonder if MTH does better job with quality control than Lionel. If Lionel had this same predicament with the paint, I wonder if they would ignore it and send the item to dealers anyways. I hear the head guys at Lionel, even with these passenger cars, say they do QC checks when they arrive at Concord, NC but it makes you wonder.
> 
> ....


The late Lou Caponi was a real task-master when it came to keeping an eye on toy trains coming from China during his tenure managing LCCA product offerings. He had stories that would make all of our eyes roll, and he didn't put up with any overseas factory BS. Bottom line... light-weight QC -- or none at all -- doesn't cut it in today's manufacturing climate. Close monitoring _throughout the entire project_ is required for truly excellent products. If the importers aren't doing that, then they aren't taking QC seriously.

David


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## HarborBelt1970

*Thoughts of Chairman Mann*



kstrains said:


> It's sad that Lionel customer service has gone down the drain in that they offer no solutions or parts in fixing these cars other than return to dealers. I know that there is always a certain expected percentage for defects for any item that is manufactured. I wondered how high that number is for these 21 inch passenger cars.


This and David's last post set me thinking about something based on the fact that (a) we can't know what proportion of the latest 21" sets were in fact defective and (b) Lionel have largely avoided answering questions about online criticisms of these cars and in particular what caused the defects.

A while back, and somewhere on another thread that I cannot find, I posted some frank comments from Scott Mann about factories and production in the Far East. I went looking for it again on the OGR 3Rail Scale Forum and while I did not turn it up, I found some other things from him that shed light on the manufacturing situation.

I'm not going to paste it all in here but if you want to see a real horror story about manufacturing in China have a read of this:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic...ina?reply=60557904324218507#60557904324218507

Or this:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/sunset-models-erie-s3-and-s4-arrive

Scott's main point in the comment I cannot find is that all of the train importers across the whole range of scales have present-day Chinese manufacturing issues. Way back in late 2015 he gave this account about QC (added underlining is mine for emphasis):

"All importers of trains have requirements of QC tests for their product. It would be lunacy to do otherwise.

But perceiving what is and isn't a problem is what makes the difference between a successful QC process and a useless one. I have seen workers run an engine back and forth, put the pilot truck back on the track repeatedly and not think anything of it. Or see the engine lifting on a curve because of a part interfering, but not derailing and again, no reaction by the QC people. I have seen them ignore grinding noises, high current draw, thinking these things must be OK. Also missing burned out lights, bad speakers, malfunctioning shut down sequences, bent or broken detail, are all things that we look for when we do our QC testing but they miss due to just plain laziness. The factory QC people make $300 a month, so you an imagine what you get for that money. I bopped one guy on the head several times for resting his head in his hands while a model ran around the test track. I asked him to be removed from QC several times but I keep finding him there every time I return. It's not my factory, I can only suggest or demand.

So I come here and use the DIY method. I watch them testing, I spot check, I hang around looking for anything repetitive going wrong. We do drop testing of the finish product to simulate the Gorilla in the Samsonite commercial. Then we open the box and see if anything broke, came loose, bent. But what we can't find are those things the shake loose after 10 days of vibration and shocks in the UPS and USPS systems, like cold solder joints on wires, or screws working themselves out. That's what customer service is for.

We all want what we buy to be perfect when we open it. Why can't this happen with more regularity with our model train purchases?

. . .

In Model Trains [unlike mass produced consumer products], you only get 1 shot, 1 iteration. You correct what you find at the factory in the middle or at the end of production and hope for the best after shipping. Each new model is a different production and a new design and new set of problems. That's why we have extensive customer support.

I hope this sheds some light on your experiences. It's a hobby business, designed to give you the biggest happiness for the buck and a big variety. They are expensive to make, packed with engineering and electronics and they are well designed. But there are no iterations in manufacturing these models so we get what is statistically possible, which seems to be about 10-15% defective rate after shipping. To do more would drive the costs up a lot. That's my experience with this."


To his everlasting credit, Scott frequently talks openly about these things and stands behind his products. Neither part of that approach has been evident in Lionel's handling of the 21" cars issues. Interestingly Scott recently announced the production of a new run of scale length aluminum cars and in that connection noted: "_Yes, we use individually applied interior seats, chairs, tables and bars. They are multi colored for your enjoyment. The windows are CNCed from Polycarbonate sheets and have stunning clarity_." Those are all things that appeal to me because I'm obsessive about passenger car interiors. I have the nasty feeling that Lionel's approach has veered far away from what I value. 

As usual, I would dearly like to be proved wrong.


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## Lehigh74

I have been following this tread lately even though I can’t use 21” cars and generally don’t buy Lionel. The other day, I asked Bill Henning if they have had a slew of problems with the new 21” cars and he said there have not been too many. He did say that the UP cars were more problematic than the others, that on some cars, the windows have come out and that they have only had to send one car back to Lionel.


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## rogruth

I had a friend, now dead, that had been a Lionel certified repairman for @ 50 years. When he needed a $3.00 part to repair a $1500.00 loco and was told that they don't have those parts he refused to repair any more of the modern locos that we all love so well. When he asked what the owner of that loco should do with it he was told that it looked nice so put it on a shelf and enjoy it. You might do that with model cars but trains are supposed to run.


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## HarborBelt1970

Lehigh74 said:


> I have been following this tread lately even though I can’t use 21” cars and generally don’t buy Lionel. The other day, I asked Bill Henning if they have had a slew of problems with the new 21” cars and he said there have not been too many. He did say that the UP cars were more problematic than the others, that on some cars, the windows have come out and that they have only had to send one car back to Lionel.


That's interesting both on the quantity and the ability to send back to Lionel. 

My best guess is that Lionel made several hundred of these sets with the Excursion sets forming the bulk. If that's right the number of returns might not be vast compared to the production run.

But this is hardly an isolated instance of recent Lionel QC problems, as I can attest from my own experience. :smilie_daumenneg:


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## Traindiesel

Another thing, that I think haunts all of the model train importers, is that these Far East manufacturing facilities usually manufacture low end items by the thousands. A couple of hundred toy train items don't even get priority in the queue and are probably viewed as a nuisance to their production schedules. Part of the reason we also have to wait so long for our trains to be shipped. Add quality problems to the mix and it's a wonder we ever see anything!


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## HarborBelt1970

Traindiesel said:


> Another thing, that I think haunts all of the model train importers, is that these Far East manufacturing facilities usually manufacture low end items by the thousands. A couple of hundred toy train items don't even get priority in the queue and are probably viewed as a nuisance to their production schedules. Part of the reason we also have to wait so long for our trains to be shipped. Add quality problems to the mix and it's a wonder we ever see anything!


Agree your last point. But I’ve assumed that are far as locomotives are concerned, there must be specialist factories dealing with the production of such things as die cast steamers, their running gear and so forth, all of which require manufacturing expertise well beyond that needed to mass produce plastic objects. But maybe these complicated parts are produced in one place and assembled in another. 

My recent experience of finding stray parts in boxes containing Lionel steamers and those containing plastic passenger cars would tend to suggest that the same assembly facility is being used. So too does finding that the finished product is incompletely or poorly assembled. The problem is consistent across the Lionel products I have ordered in the last two years except for one, the Lionel Legacy FEF-3 (second version). I’m certainly not anxious to order anything more.


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## davidone

Where is Lionel in this debate? Why have they not made a statement about these problems and how they will be corrected.

Dave


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## Yellowstone Special

davidone said:


> Where is Lionel in this debate? Why have they not made a statement about these problems and how they will be corrected.
> 
> Dave


No matter to me, since I no longer buy new Lionel and haven't for some time.


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## HarborBelt1970

davidone said:


> Where is Lionel in this debate? Why have they not made a statement about these problems and how they will be corrected.Dave


Hiding out waiting for the smell to go away. But they’ll have to say something at York. And to be fair Dave Olson has posted a couple of things over on the other place but only in reference to specific points - like the cars that came with sound system wiring exposed in the windows, which he put down to the factory not following instructions. :dunno: The suggested remedy is a DIY application of tape.


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## rogruth

Dave,
This doesn't seem to be a debate but more of a discussion about why Lionel doesn't respond to these problems. If they are trying to address the problems it might help to let the Lionel buyers and fans know that they, management, are also concerned about the problems.

I don't buy much new stuff but I have been a Lionel fan since the 1940s and I hate to see their reputation go so low.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

davidone said:


> Where is Lionel in this debate? Why have they not made a statement about these problems and how they will be corrected.
> ....


Dave, Lionel took the strategy of complaining to OGR and then having OGR reprimand folks who brought these issues to the forefront earlier this month. We were essentially told to shape-up or ship-out. I told OGR what they could do with their "standing by Lionel to protect their ad-revenue relationship" position, and I was told to unceremoniously ship-out. Seems money does talk... as it always has.  But suffice to say, SOMEBODY at Lionel was concerned about their "image" being tarnished with all the talk about these problems. But who's fault is THAT? Their factory for doing a sloppy job? Lionel for not supervising the factory's output? Or the consumer for reporting early problems? 

Seems Lionel is choosing the battles it wants to fight these days (which I can understand to some degree). And this latest roll-out of 21" passenger cars isn't something they want to admit to publicly as of yet. Whereas the company jumped in pretty quickly to at least address the Mogul problem. They haven't fixed it yet, but at least they're TALKING about the problem. And they reportedly have the Mogul's replacement parts in-house now, and still need to re-code some firmware to accommodate new gearing ratios (or something to that effect). Until that's complete, they're still not asking Mogul owners to send their locomotives to NC for repair yet. But I do give Lionel credit for at least trying to address the issue. For the record, I returned two Moguls back to the dealer, and never looked back on that decision. Instead, I purchased two sealed, brand new TMCC Moguls from Grzyboski Trains' recent acquisition of an estate collection. And I'm super happy with that decision!  The trains manufactured in that era seem to have been made with a bit more pride -- at least that's my perception anyway. But I wish owners who've stuck by Lionel holding out for a solution to their Legacy Mogul problems all the best if/when Lionel actually fixes those little jewels.

OTOH, with the 21" passenger cars, I get the impression Lionel is just looking the other way -- hoping buyers will tweak the problem cars themselves rather than send them back to their dealers for refund/exchange. And the fact that there are no spare parts inventory planned for NC customer service certainly has set a new low in terms of an essentially non-existent warranty program for a Lionel product (aside from dealer refunds).

I _finally_ shot some video footage last night (Thursday) of my Penn Central passenger cars, which I'll post here in the next day or two. Overall, I love the CONCEPT of the train, but the execution of it was filled with shoddy workmanship issues for DIY'ers to fix. While I was lucky to receive unblemished cars (i.e., no paint blotches, scratches, trucks falling off, etc...), I did have one truck that needed to be adjusted so it wouldn't rub up against the floor frame. And I've needed to use small plastic wire-ties to keep the couplers closed while running my 7-car set, since various cars would uncouple randomly due to the cheaper couplers used in these cars. On rare occasions in the past, a one-off errant coupler might fail under the weight of a 20+ car, heavy freight train. But I've NEVER had to wire-tie an entire set of just a 7-car passenger train to ensure the train would stay intact -- even on a completely level grade no less!  

Obviously, folks can argue 'till cows come home if this stuff is acceptable. For the most ardent Lionel supports, all of these problems are "minor defects". And by the way, I absolutely love the phrase "company men and cheerleaders" that's come out of these discussions -- wish I thought of it. To these folks, Lionel can do no wrong. However, those of us bringing a more objective viewpoint into the picture beg to differ. After spending $800+ for a 7-car passenger set like the Penn Central, I don't expect the shoddy workmanship exhibited with these passenger cars. True.... I "managed through" the issues I encountered... but that's largely because I really liked the concept of a mixed-color passenger train from the Penn Central era when trains consisted of whatever cars were available at the moment to put into service. And if I returned my 4-pack back to the dealer for exchange, it wasn't 100% clear when its replacement would arrive. Even the 2-pack and StationSounds diner have couplers that don't stand up to normal use without the wire-tie solution.

But when we look at the kinds of issues that have been reported overall with these cars (i.e., paint flaws, labels warping off the car body, couplers uncoupling, trucks falling off, trucks bent into the floor frame, visible wiring harnesses dangling in front of windows on the StationSounds diners of some liveries, windows falling out, window glue/tape preventing easy disassembly of the cars to add people inside, etc...) , they read like a "perfect storm" of factory defects and shoddy workmanship by workers that are either rushed to get product out the door, or they just don't give a hoot what leaves the factory while knowing there's no QC supervision to keep things in-check.

Whether some folks want to categorize all those issues as "a few minor defects" only serves to set a low standard of product quality and business practices regardless of price -- let alone when folks spend $800+ for a complete 7-car set (and much more than that for the AFT set). But it is what it is. All I know is ya just can't make this stuff up. So I guess we'll wait with bated breath to see what new surprises lurk around the corner with the next big shipment of Lionel product.  Unless, of course, we choose to not pre-order any new products, and just wait to see what's delivered before committing to purchase. 

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> .... Whereas the company jumped in pretty quickly to at least address the Mogul problem. They haven't fixed it yet, but at least they're TALKING about the problem. And they reportedly have the Mogul's replacement parts in-house now, and still need to re-code some firmware to accommodate new gearing ratios (or something to that effect). Until that's complete, they're still not asking Mogul owners to send their locomotives to NC for repair yet. But I do give Lionel credit for at least trying to address the issue. For the record, I returned two Moguls back to the dealer, and never looked back on that decision. Instead, I purchased two sealed, brand new TMCC Moguls from Grzyboski Trains' recent acquisition of an estate collection. And I'm super happy with that decision!  The trains manufactured in that era seem to have been made with a bit more pride -- at least that's my perception anyway. But I wish owners who've stuck by Lionel holding out for a solution to their Legacy Mogul problems all the best if/when Lionel actually fixes those little jewels.
> 
> ....


Oh my... I just read a new thread over on the other place this morning, and the latest Mogul news is the replacement parts sent from China are not doing what they were intended to do. And Lionel isn't sure why yet. That news was not publicly announced by Lionel, but was mentioned by a frustrated Mogul owner whise been very close to the problem and Lionel's intended solution -- one of the first who sent his locomotive in to investigate the problem several months ago.

Seems Lionel just can't get a break from their Chinese suppliers these days. Either they're not getting spare parts period, or the parts they're getting to fix a problem don't fix the problem. This can't be a good sign.

I'm glad I returned my 2 unopened Legacy Moguls to the dealer when I could. But I feel bad for those folks who were hoping to get the locomotive fixed. This is gonna get messy NOW, since months have gone by and dealers aren't likely to just "take them back" unless Lionel is in the boat with them on the return. 

Probably better to just write off its losses on this one, and have Mogul owners return them back to Lionel for a refund. That's what happened when the Pennsy S-2 Turbine had rust issues a few years ago. Lionel refunded folks their money directly. And ironically, a few S-2's were sold on the cheap (around $600 I believe) at Lionel's November warehouse sale. So Lionel didn't scrap the entire production run altogether.

David


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## c.midland

I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm curious if anyone has kept track of how many people have returned their passenger cars on the forums? Seems a lot of people are unhappy with them, but I wonder if the amount of returns is significant enough to create an issue at Lionel? From what I've read in the last month, no one seems really happy with them, but most seem the be repairing them themselves. Unfortunate...

I'm not at all surprised with OGR's response to Rocky Mountainer's posts, but am surprised that Lionel was upset about them. As far as I can tell, Rocky's posts were pretty straight forward, and praised products when they should be praised, and was critical when critical was required. Well thought out feedback should be listened to. 

Because of OGR's advertising policy, I won't buy from any retailer that's an OGR sponsor that I haven't purchased from in the past. Not because I'm anti-OGR, but because of the "pay-to-play" nature of the deal. If anything negative about a sponsor is posted it gets deleted, so you can be a bad retailer, and no one will know. Someone can potentially be a thief, and as long as they pay, any negative posting will be deleted. 



I wanted a Mogul, and almost purchased one, but dodged that bullet. I guess that's good. I really kinda wanted one, though. Disturbing that most of the retailers are still advertising them for sale with absolutely no warning about the defects.


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## Norton

c.midland said:


> I wanted a Mogul, and almost purchased one, but dodged that bullet. I guess that's good. I really kinda wanted one, though. Disturbing that most of the retailers are still advertising them for sale with absolutely no warning about the defects.


The TMCC versions run like a watch. I can't fathom why its taken over 7 months to come up with a solution nor why you have to go half way around the world to get a replacement part made.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer

c.midland said:


> ....
> I wanted a Mogul, and almost purchased one, but dodged that bullet. I guess that's good. I really kinda wanted one, though. Disturbing that most of the retailers are still advertising them for sale with absolutely no warning about the defects.


*
c.midland*, thanks for your comments. Very much appreciate them.

As for the Moguls in general, I'll echo Pete's comments 100%. The TMCC Moguls run like champs, and they were built over 10 years ago... which makes the current Legacy problems even more puzzling. From a features standpoint, the only real difference (aside from TMCC electronics vs. Legacy electronics) is the TMCC units have 2 chuffs/rev vs. Legacy's 4 chuffs/rev. The TMCC Moguls also didn't have whistle-steam, but I'm pretty sure the Legacy models didn't include that either due to space restrictions. So given everything else going on from a Railsounds perspective on the layout, I'll gladly live with the 2 chuffs/rev -- especially for a locomotive which is otherwise a clear winner.

To be fair, I'm not sure if Lionel ever explained EXACTLY what the ROOT problem was/is with the Legacy units -- other than mentioning they ordered new replacement parts from China, and then some firmware would need to be upgraded in NC as well.... all in hopes that the locomotives would run smoother with no jerky motions at slow-speed.

Ryan and Dave at Lionel must really be frustrated at this point. They don't build this stuff. They're relying on China to do that. And when they see these issues surfacing with so many products, it's gotta be demoralizing. At least the Brass Hybrid locomotive appears to have escaped the production woes of the factory flunkies. Now if Lionel could only get the factory crew who assembled the Brass Hybrid beauty to work on all their products, life would be more enjoyable for everyone.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer

Good evening folks,

Well a LOT has certainly been written about Lionel's latest 21" passenger cars -- and rightly so. However, I thought it would be nice to finally ENJOY something about them. 

After placing plastic wire-ties around all the couplers on the 7 Penn Central cars I received, I was finally able to keep the train together for some nice video captures.  I enlisted a VisionLine Penn Central GG-1 along with a JLC Penn Central GG-1 to do the honors up front for the first part of this video. 

And while I was at it, I also included some video coverage of a logging train on the upper-level route of the Allegheny & Pacific Rwy -- traveling over the Dept 56 village and through the mountains. Twin Legacy Heislers did the honors for the logging train in the second half of the video. Enjoy in HD if you have the bandwidth!!!

https://vimeo.com/262777663/ccc6f55184 

I still plan to add the Pennsy diner/kitchen car 2-pack to the roster, as it should complement the tuscan-color of the PC Connoquenessing Creek car in the set very nicely. But that 2-pack is still on back-order with my dealer for some reason, and I didn't want to wait any longer to produce the video. Additionally, I might also add the Conrail full-dome car and Conrail theatre car to this multi-color consist when they become available later this year (hopefully). That would make an 11-car train consisting of Penn Central, Pennsylvania and Conrail liveries -- which somehow seems right.  

David


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## Spence

Very nice video David. :appl:


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## Traindiesel

Outstanding video, David! Thanks for sharing.

I wasn't going to do it, I figured I got lucky once with the UP Excursion set, and as much as I wanted the Penn Central set I didn't wan't to take any chances. But that color combination of the cars looks great, so I am climbing over the fence now and want to get them. Maybe.


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## Scotie

Its nice to see a more "real world" set of passenger cars although PC was at the extreme end of not matching. The sets most of use seem to want probably didn't last very long on the real thing as practicality and economics really played a large role.
Love the set but another coach rather than an observation would have been nice.
Great video, enjoyed it this AM with 6 inches of snow on the ground after Easter.


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## 86TA355SR

*Overland Diner*

























_Window pushed in..._









_Roof lifting up..._









I give up. Second exchange on this car, brand new out of box, and look at the pictures above...Lionel's QC is a joke. It doesn't exists.

Read an 8 page thread on these cars. Only comment from DO of Lionel had nothing to do with QC but about diner operation. Unbelievable. It's obvious Lionel is reading THAT thread and is fully aware of the disaster they delivered.

Like I said before, I won't need my credit card for anymore Lionel orders.

I'm closing the Excursion car chapter and wish others luck. I wouldn't buy them again, and certainly not worth the 2 1/2 year wait.


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## Last Green Valley RR

I returned both my Southern Pacific Lines and Union Pacific Excursion car. Very disappointing. Someone will make cars for my GS-4 eventually. My FEF-3 will pull freight for now. I have substantially cut back on my Lionel pre orders as a result.


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## Rocky Mountaineer

In an interesting turn of events, I noticed Nassau Hobby (on Long Island, NY) already has some aggressive discount prices on Lionel's 21" passenger cars. We normally don't see this level of discounting (10-18% _below_ Charlie Ro's normal prices) until a good 12+ months after initial delivery of product. The ink is hardly even dry on the price tags. And in just over 3 months time, these 21" cars can be had for substantially less than their pre-order prices... which doesn't set a good precedence for future pre-order reservations. 

Now in all fairness, the Pennsy Broadway Ltd and Penn Central cars are in short supply (if even available at all) through most dealers, so those liveries are not part of the discount sale. But even so, folks grabbing these cars at significantly lower prices this soon after initial delivery are bound to plant some hesitancy among enthusiasts pre-ordering down the road. Perhaps at these lower prices though, buyers won't be as put off by all the quality issues many of us encountered earlier this year.  Let's just hope these cars sold at a big discount now aren't the sets that were returned from earlier buyers.  Or perhaps Lionel has already "refurbished" the early returns, and they're now making them available for-sale at some dealers. 

And so the saga of these 21" passenger cars continues....

David


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## Norton

Lionel must have made an exception on these cars. Dealers aren't suppose to advertise a price below MAP (10%) until 6 months after release. After that anything goes.

Pete


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## HarborBelt1970

It's also interesting that Nassau sold out of the UP Excursion 4-packs shortly after announcing the sale in an OGR Forum thread. Maybe he did not have that many to begin with although I assume that the UP cars were the biggest single seller of this issue. 

No mention of the fact that there are no parts/warranty service for these cars but anyone who is really interested in them and reads that forum is going to be unaware of the position. Nor is there any mention that the sets have been checked or are being sold "as is" but maybe that's related to the first point.

Frankly I would not touch anything else from this run of 21" cars with a 400 foot pole. 

I wonder if the very early and significant discount is partly Lionel's effort to avoid getting stuck with as many returns as would probably otherwise be the case.


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