# How To: Rebuild your Lionel 364 log loader



## erkenbrand

I got this loader from Flyernut. It was a great deal, and the loader hadn't been run in many years. The belt was definitely done in. 

After giving it a test run, I found that the motor was just about frozen.


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## erkenbrand

To bring it back to life, I ordered a new belt from the Train Tender, and then proceeded to tear down the whole thing. It's really easy to tear it down:

1. Take out the little screws and remove the back plates exposing the motor.










2. Pop the pins that hold the belt rollers. Remove the belt. Pull the nut off the motor pulley, unsolder the wire lead to the motor, pull the motor. Note: there's a spring that holds the motor back to provide continual tension on the motor. I just used a piece of masking tape to tie the spring together so it didn't drive me nuts later.










3. Time to pull the motor apart.










4. Pull the back off. Be careful. Once you pull the two screws very slowly remove the back. There are two brushes on springs that will fly away.










5. Now, using contact cleaner and a Scotchbrite, clean up all that pretty copper so it shines again. Including the brushes.

Dirty:









(I forgot to take a photo of it clean.)

6. Pull the armature out from the gear box. It should come out easily, it's just a screw gear.

7. Pull the gearbox apart. Check out that really old, hardened grease. Have fun cleaning everything!  Take your time and get it all out of there. WD-40 makes this easier. When you're done, you should have a pile of bits like this:










8. Put it all back together and re-grease the gears. 










9. Now, put the motor and gearbox back together and remount in the loader.










10. Make sure you clean the overall loader, pay special attention to the rollers that will guide the new belt. Cleaning for me was Windex Surface cleaner, Scotchbrite and paper towels. Here's a before / after photo of those rollers:










11. Now, you're ready to strap on the new belt and put the rear plates back on.










Once all of that was done the loader worked like a champ! I can't wait to get it permanently installed in my layout.

Good luck with your rebuild! I hope this helps a bit.


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## Dave Sams

Looks like a nice addiiton to your layout, and not too difficult to repair.

Thanks for sharing.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You saved me the trouble of posting the same set of pictures!  When I got my log loader, I went through the same process. I had one more step, the motor hadn't been secured in shipment, so it had broken away from the swing mount, I had to fix that as well. The gear box was frightening inside!. I also ordered a belt, but it turned out that the old belt works fine once I cleaned up everything else. The nice thing about the #364 is it doesn't take up as much space on the layout, one track serves for both loading and unloading. If you get it aligned right, you can load and unload all day without ever touching the logs. 

I have a #164 log loader that is a pile of parts right now, I think I have all the parts to put it together, but I have to paint the parts first, it was in pretty rough shape.


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## erkenbrand

Ouch! I'm glad the swing mount on this was solid.

The belt on this one was so stretched it just wouldn't move any more. So, it had to go. 

I have noticed that the plastic logs don't work very well. They're just too smooth to be picked up by the belt. The regular wood logs work perfectly, so I think I'll head out later and pick up some dowel rod to make some more. 

Since I have today off for President's Day, I think I'll work on getting the loader positioned just right.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I built a little fence around the one on my grandson's 4x8 platform, it just drops in and positions it where it needs to be.


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## Dave Sams

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The nice thing about the #364 is it doesn't take up as much space on the layout, one track serves for both loading and unloading. If you get it aligned right, you can load and unload all day without ever touching the logs. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Darn! Another thing I "need".
> 
> That's wha I like about the forum, I learn about a lot of accessories.


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## erkenbrand

And the 364s aren't expensive as far as accessories go.

John, what are you using for you operating switch? I put together a simple SPST toggle switch, but I've been eyeing the Lionel switches. I just like the way they look.


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## flyernut

Very, very nice teardown and description of the process. You did a great job, and I'm happy that the loader was serviceable once you had everything cleaned and working. One question, did you re-surface the armature? I don't know how the Lionel motors look disassembled but when I get a flyer engine that needs service, I also resurface the armature. I chuck up the armature in my drill press, and hold a piece of fine sandpaper or emery cloth on the face while it's spinning. That takes out any ridges or microscopic gulleys on the face. Again, great job!! I just love tutorials with pictures, and yours was super!!


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## tjcruiser

Erk,

Excellent photo study, as usual. Though I don't have a loader, I find it fascinating to be able to look under the hood in such detail like this. Gives me the knowledge / confidence to understand what would be involved, should I ever find one "calling out my name".

Great job ... a HUGE thank you for taking the time to document the process.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

erkenbrand said:


> And the 364s aren't expensive as far as accessories go.
> 
> John, what are you using for you operating switch? I put together a simple SPST toggle switch, but I've been eyeing the Lionel switches. I just like the way they look.


I'm using a plain Lionel 364C switch, I have a bunch of them.


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## T-Man

Great job! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
It's one thing I don't have and it's room for accessories.
Keep up the good work!


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## erkenbrand

I'm going to keep an eye out for the 364C at the next train show. For now my little toggle is doing the job.


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## tjcruiser

Erk,

Just out of curiosity, do you know if the motor components on that loader are common with any other Lionel accessories or cars? Don't go crazy looking anything up ... only if you can rattle something off the top of your head. (I'll peek through the Olsen's site at some point to see what I can learn.)

Thanks,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm pretty sure the base motor is common to a number of accessories. I saw a listing for one on eBay some time back, and they listed a bunch of different accessory numbers, including #364.


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## erkenbrand

I'm not sure. I'll do some looking around later. It would be good to know. If anybody comes up with an answer, please let us know.


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## tjcruiser

Old Lionel docs (via Olsen's library) list the key motor part numbers all beginning with "364" per the log loader number, so that doesn't yield any clues as to if and where there might be some commonality with other accessories.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/accs/acc364pl.pdf

TJ


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## erkenbrand

flyernut said:


> Very, very nice teardown and description of the process. You did a great job, and I'm happy that the loader was serviceable once you had everything cleaned and working. One question, did you re-surface the armature? I don't know how the Lionel motors look disassembled but when I get a flyer engine that needs service, I also resurface the armature. I chuck up the armature in my drill press, and hold a piece of fine sandpaper or emery cloth on the face while it's spinning. That takes out any ridges or microscopic gulleys on the face. Again, great job!! I just love tutorials with pictures, and yours was super!!


No, I didn't resurface the armature. That's a good thought. I'll do that in the future, but this one was in pretty good shape.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I tried that resurfacing with one engine, but the operating accessories run so seldom as a rule that I didn't think it was worth the trouble once I cleaned up the armature.


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## flyernut

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I tried that resurfacing with one engine, but the operating accessories run so seldom as a rule that I didn't think it was worth the trouble once I cleaned up the armature.


Good thought.


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## gunrunnerjohn

On engines, that's an excellent idea if the armature is rough, probably really extend the life of the brushes and armature.


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## tjcruiser

OK ... sidebar stupid question from TJ ...

I've rebuilt or serviced a dozen or so old Lionel locos at this point ... both pre and postwar. They all have the typical cylindrical brushes ... some with coil springs, some with "paper-clip" side springs.

In all cases, the brushes appear OK to me, once cleaned up. The motors run OK, and the springs are presumably doing their job pushing the brushes up against the armature face OK.

So, here's my question ...

How does one actually tell when a brush needs to be replaced? I'm assuming that it'll get worn down to the "point of no more use", but how does one determine that? Based upon the dozen OLD motors I've serviced (many perhaps with their original brushes), all of the brushes show little apparent signs of wear.

Do you replace these things once every century or two ?!?!?

Clue me in,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've never had to replace one either, so I'll be interested in the answer to the question.  I'm guessing it's simply due to the length of the brush.


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## erkenbrand

I know with other electronic motors the brushes need replaced when they're worn to a nub. I've replaced them in grinders, drills, etc. Each time the brushes were gone.

I'm assuming it's the same with these motors.


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## T-Man

It gets too short you loose spring tension, then it doesn't work.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I've replaced them in power tools, and it was always the length that was the driving force.


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## johnallen

*364 Log Loader operation*

To: Erkenbrand and anyone else who can help;

Was doing a search and found this thread and joined so I can ask a Q. Eckenbrand said that his 364 Loader worked hands off after his rebuild. I recently bought one from a reputable local dealer. It was reworked including a new belt. It runs fine, but actually moving logs is hit and miss. The first log falls onto the conveyor but subsequent logs tend to get "cock-eyed", one partially on top of the other, and the last log never makes it past the flat to up slope transition area. I keep telling myself that it is a toy and that it needs "help"to operate. Also, the belt always moves faster than the logs. Am thinking of really polishing the side of the loader to be as smooth as possible to reduce friction there. Logs are original with the 3461 car. They measure 4.5 in long and 7/16in. dia. I noticed that the logs in Erkenbrand's photo were about as long as the flat "collection area". Am thinking that might help keep them better organized in the collection area and when help with transitioning to the up slope. Just a guess. Anyway, would sure like this loader to get closer to hands off operation and will be gratefull for any suggestions. Thanks. John


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## gunrunnerjohn

I can tell you how to fix that issue. You need to slightly tilt the loader back with some small shims under the front. That will keep the logs near the back until they are totally exposed and they'll then roll down and drop into the car. I had the exact same issue with mine. 

The belt does seem to slip at times, don't know what the cure for that is. I've been looking for some tacky stuff to treat the belt to help it pull the logs up. They get there, but sometimes they slow down on the trip.


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## johnallen

*364 Log Loader Operation*

Thanks, Gunrunner:

I tried your suggestion. Shimmed up to 1/4" which seemed to help keep the "next" log from riding along side the log on the conveyor, but the last log still does not want to go up the conveyor w/o a push. It hangs up with the back end over the exposed roller. 

I have considered doing something to the belt so it grabs the logs, but am afraid that would cause problems with the rollers.

John


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the tension of the belt is an issue there, and you also may need a new belt. You can get one for $4 from The Train Tender. Also, if you look closely at the input platform, you'll notice that is should be jogging slightly up and down. When I got my loader, the platform was warped so that didn't happen. If that's the case, you'll have to warp it back so that "jogging" action happens to help the logs get started. There's a cam on that roller that does the jogging of the platform.


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## johnallen

*364 Log Loader Operation*

Gunrunner,

Think I will replace the belt even though it is supposed to be new. My "jogger" works. I am going to try some things and report back if I have any luck.

John


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## gunrunnerjohn

I see the logs hesitate at the bottom at times, usually the first couple with the others in the hopper dragging on them. You don't want to dump more than 4-5 logs in at a time, when I put more than that, typically they'll either really take a long time, or just get stuck. I also have a new belt handy, but I can't see the difference between it and the one that' on the loader, so I haven't replaced it yet.


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## johnallen

Just about out of ideas. The last log moves smartly along the hopper, clears the gap over the roller, may or may not continue up the conveyor, but almost always will get hung up when no longer contacting the flat portion of belt. A log about an inch longer seemed to make the transition more consistant. Seems to me, replacing the roller with a 1/8" pin, to narrow the gap, would just about eliminate the problem with little lost due to increased friction. I'll bet some folks are reading this thread and having a real chuckle.

John


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think you'll find that replacing the roller is not the answer, hard to believe that won't wear the belt out in short order.

One more thing that might make a difference is waxing the sides of the chute so that there is less friction for the log as it rides along the the belt. Obviously, keep the wax off the belt.  I haven't done this, but then I didn't have to to get it working. I'm thinking it might be a good idea anyway to make it work even better...


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## NewTexan

I am rebuilding my newly acquired log loader. This article was a great help. However, my loader has a differnet type of spring, a flat piece of spring steel about 1/4 inch wide, shaped like a V with one end slightly curved, apparently to fit around a shaft. Unfortunately it was loose in the unit when I opened it up, and I'm not sure how to position it. Can anyone help? Alternatively, where might I get one of the sprngs shown in this article as a replacement?

Thanks


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## Big Ed

NewTexan said:


> I am rebuilding my newly acquired log loader. This article was a great help. However, my loader has a differnet type of spring, a flat piece of spring steel about 1/4 inch wide, shaped like a V with one end slightly curved, apparently to fit around a shaft. Unfortunately it was loose in the unit when I opened it up, and I'm not sure how to position it. Can anyone help? Alternatively, where might I get one of the sprngs shown in this article as a replacement?
> 
> Thanks


Would this be the motor tension spring?
If so,

Jeff at the Traintender has them, 
http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html

Part #364-109

I would suggest getting some more parts if you need some, if you buy from him.
What ever you need he will vac/seal each in a small baggie and label so there is no confusion over what part is what.

If it is not the spring you need give him call.
I don't have a #364.


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## NewTexan

*How To: Rebuild uour Lionel 364 log loader*

Big Ed,

Thanks for the 364-109 part number and website info. I have put together a list of parts I need for a number of items and sent them off to Jeff.


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## sjm9911

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. Just built my first layout and your pictures were very helpful in rebuilding a log loader and coal loader. I'm pretty handy but never worked with any trains before. Without this thread I would not have been able to do it. Thanks again.


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## erkenbrand

I'm happy to see it was helpful. Throw some pics of your layout up when you get a chance. We'd love to see it.


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## sjm9911

Will do. As soon as I figure out how. Thanks again.


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## gunrunnerjohn

sjm9911 said:


> Will do. As soon as I figure out how. Thanks again.


Here you go: How to post pictures


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## sjm9911

Thanks for the help. I couldn't post a pic with my phone. I will try again when I get the pictures uploaded to the computer.


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## sjm9911

Since we are on the log loader thread, my loader runs like new, everything runs as it should, however the logs get stuck after they are dumped. I do not know if my logs are the correct diameter for this loader. I made a few smaller diameter logs with the same results. I put a new belt on the loader I got on ebay. Is there a way to add roughness to the outside of the belt? I was thinking of the new spray on grip paint. Any thoughts or advice is appreciated. By the way the belt I took off had toothpick peices glued on every so often to start the logs moving up the ramp. I might try this if all else fails.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The smooth side of the belt is supposed to be on the rollers. Rather than toothpick pieces, you might just glue tiny wires across sideways, that would do the trick.


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## sjm9911

Wire would probably be much better then toothpicks. Ill let you know how it turns out thanks. (Hopefully with pics).


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## sjm9911

Hope the pics load. I had to crop them. Anyway these are some pictures of my first layout. The log loader should be in one of them. The set is semi-operational. I still have to fine tune some of the accessories and finish wiring all the switches etc. I needed a break for the holiday though.


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## mcshabs

Rebooting an old thread. Great description and photos of how to restore 364. Just got two of these that are really rough. Amongst other things they will need to take a dip in my electrolysis tank but from two I should be able to make one running unit. 

Anyways a quick question, does anyone know the dimensions of lionel "logs" - diameter and length? I need to fell some trees for my lionel empire .


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## gunrunnerjohn

Do you want logs to work with the log loader? I made a bunch from 1/2" hardwood dowels and stained them so they looked a bit nicer.


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## mcshabs

Yes looking for logs for the log loader. It looks like someone further up the thread said 7/16 diameter? Will 1/2 diameter work on the loader? That may be an easier dowel size to find at my local hardware store.


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## sjm9911

The logs that came with my loader were7/16 but I do not know if they are original or if that is the optimal size. I never tried 1/2 inch but I never tried the wire yet either! One day I will finish my log loader!


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## gunrunnerjohn

I loaded a bunch of 1/2" home-made logs on the 364 and 164 log loaders, they worked just fine. It was the size of dowel I had on hand, and it looked close enough to the Lionel ones that I gave it a try. The Lionel ones I measured were just a shade under 1/2", but a bit more than 7/16".


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## alman

*Make a video !*

I would really like to see a video of this in operation !


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## sjm9911

Alman, that's a great idea for a new thread. There is lots of stuff out there that I would like to see in action. I Will work on my non existent video skills and even worse posting them skills. Great idea! ( I will have to finish my log loader though . Give me a week I'll work on it!


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## GeraldNuss

For my loader rebuild I started much as Gunrunner did, my motor was off as well. I did not rebuild the or rather clean the gear case. Now that I see the process I may tackle that part. My belt slips on the drive wheel, have a new one on the way now. When running the logs just sit, the belt passing under them. I will continue to tweet and natter at it. One thing I noticed was the shaft and wheel rubbed on the back cover. This caused the motor to climb and loosened the belt tension.


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## geophyte1

*Pulley shaft and Pin, Log Loader - And Intro*

Hello Everyone,

Not sure if this is the correct thread or if I should start another but here goes.
Just as an intro I got my first train in 1950 at age 4 and after I burned out the e unit about 1.5 years later (I learned about 20 years later when I repaired it) I have run the train very little but decided to get it out for Christmas due to having a 4 year old grandson and could only find the cars - so I've been frequenting Ebay and haven't found the right controller to shut off that behavior

My question is about a log loader I've acquired and in particular about the pulley shaft and the pin that connects the belt pulley to the pulley shaft. I've been cleaning the log loader and have ordered a new belt but I'm starting to put things back together and the two pictorials I've seen concerning rebuilding both show the pulley shaft as a stainless steel shaft that has a hole through it for the pulley pin. My shaft is black metal and does not have a hole through it for the pin. It appears to only have insets drilled on both sides which makes me believe there may be a different type of clip or pin for this log loader. Also, I've looked at the parts list on both the Olsen site and in the Greenberg's Lionel Service Manual and neither list a pin other than roller pins and neither have any parts drawings.

I've been very careful with small parts and I never saw a pin of any kind when I was taking it apart and if there was one I cant find it. I do understand that it needs one to drive the pulley.

Any help will be appreciated.


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## GK Trains

Great step by step. I don't have one of these yet but was thinking about buying one. Now I know what to look for. Thanks.


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## geophyte1

*Removed Remains of Pulley Shaft Pin - Part No. Anyone?*

I finally garnered the courage to play like the pin was broken off in the shaft and decided try to force it out and with a small nail and the 3/16" long remains of the pin that was centered in the shaft did come out grudegingly.

I still need to know what the part number is for that pin if anyone knows it.

Thanks,


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## erkenbrand

You might want to reach out to Jeff at The Train Tender. He's really good about helping you find the part you need. His website is: http://www.ttender.com


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## geophyte1

Thank you. I'll contact Jeff.

I did notice, after I posted, that the pictorial rebuild on this forum does list a part number "364M-25 Pulley shaft pin" on one of the lower reference pages.


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## geophyte1

*New Issue - Belt Width?*

I've reassembled the log loader and everything seems to be working except that some logs do slip.

I've revisited the posts concerning slipping logs on the belt here and on the web and while doing that I came to an interesting conclusion. Some of the belts shown on some of the pictures I've seen are wider. You can see in the pictures that they go all the way, or at least practically all the way, across the rollers and the ramp. 

The belt I received is 1/2" wide which doesn't come close to covering the rollers or the ramp and leaves at least 3/16" and maybe a little more open width on which the logs aren't being driven. I'm also not very pleased with the texture of the drive side of the belt. I would have thought it would have had a rougher texture that it does.

I would be interested in knowing the belt widths on loaders others might have and also some idea of how the loader works for you.

I know there are other belts out there and I'd like to have your help locating one of those wider belts that also might have a better drive texture. I've even toyed with the idea of making my own belt.

It appears to me that the log loader is very close to being a very fun toy and only needs a little belt help.

Thanks,


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## geophyte1

Clarification - When I say drive side of belt I mean the side that moves the logs.


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## GrandpaChuck

Thanks for the practical tips on disassembly. In recent posts, mention is made of the shaft pin, the small pin that engages the large black pulley. It is shown in picture 3 but clearly removed in picture 8. Might be good to mention it in the disassembly instructions noting that it is loose and easily lost if it drops out while handling the motor. The tip on unsoldering the motor leads is good, but there is adequate slack on the lead from the terminal block, so you really only have to remove the one from the coil to free up the brush plate for removal.

On the slippage issue, there are two kinds of slippage, the belt slipping on the pulley and the logs slipping on the belt. I have replaced the belt and as noted by others, the aftermarket belt is narrower. It did not completely fix the pulley slipping issue. Also, the place were the belt is joined is quite stiff causing problems as it goes through the ridged roller that drives the joggling log unloading bed. I tried softening up the belt joint to no effect.

Both the back of the belt and the pulley surface are smooth which in theory maximizes surface contact. I have slightly roughened the pulley with medium-fine sandpaper which helped some. I have considered using a grip increasing substance such as Grip Boost for football gloves which claims to leave no residue transfer. I would apply it to the pulley since I do not want to increase drag on other surfaces. If it works, I might try it on the front side (the log carrying surface) of the belt as well. Has anyone tried this kind of strategy. I read some history and discussion of belt dressings relating to farm equipment and old industrial equipment, but we have to find the right stuff. Obviously, beeswax and oils are not appropriate.

Nice to know about this community.


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## sjm9911

Welcome, grandpa Chuck, I sprayed my logs with a grip spray I got at home depot. It helped a lot. I was going to try and spray the belt too, but I think the spray on the logs was enough. Good luck, and post what you do and the results


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## MattR

flyernut said:


> Very, very nice teardown and description of the process. You did a great job, and I'm happy that the loader was serviceable once you had everything cleaned and working. One question, did you re-surface the armature? I don't know how the Lionel motors look disassembled but when I get a flyer engine that needs service, I also resurface the armature. I chuck up the armature in my drill press, and hold a piece of fine sandpaper or emery cloth on the face while it's spinning. That takes out any ridges or microscopic gulleys on the face. Again, great job!! I just love tutorials with pictures, and yours was super!!


Just wanted to throw this out. My father, a retired electrician, said never use emrey cloth when cleaning armature. It has fine bits of metal in it and you can't effectively clean it all off. No matter how well you spray it off.

Matt


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## dindallas

*What happened to the pictures?*

I am new to this Forum so there may be an answer somewhere on here. Why are the pictures not showing up on the beginning of this thread about the 364 log loader restoration? The steps were posted at 02-21-2011, 12:16 AM 

These pictures would be very helpful. Is there an exploded parts diagram posted somewhere?

Thanks


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## sjm9911

They might have linked pictures via a 3rd party , so when the account goes down so does the pictures. If you embed the pictures on the site, upload directly instead of linking to anot her site, they stay put.


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## sjm9911

I can't find a diagram, there is a parts list on olsons, what's wrong with yours?


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## gunrunnerjohn

The pictures were posted on an external site, and obviously the OP has since moved/deleted them.


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## geophyte1

*Pitcures Requested Attached in Word Document*

I guess I don't know how to attach a file. I went through the "uploading" exercise but then I don't see the file in the post so if someone can help me "attach" I can attach a Word doocument that has the pictures from the first post of this thread. I was rebuilding a 364 and wanted them on the table with me so a snagged them.

Mod Edit.

Pictures that accompany the posts here: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=179563&postcount=46


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## geophyte1

*Another site with Pictures for 364 Repair*

Here are two web pages with some othere good information on repairing the 364:

http://www.slsprr.net/features/lumberloader.htm

http://www.slsprr.net/features/lumberloader-reference.htm#SKETCH


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## sjm9911

Nice links, I can't believe you have those sketches still! , I don't know anything about attaching documents! But for pictures you hit the paperclip icon to embed them. So, no help from me


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## gunrunnerjohn

You attach documents the same way as pictures. However, you may need to put the documents in ZIP files to attach them, not all file types are supported.


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## geophyte1

*Pictures from first post of thread*

I'm trying again. I saved the pictures off of the Word document I created. Some have some of the description and wording so they are not just pictures so I hope that doesn't confuse. I won't guarantee they are in the correct order but I think they are


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## geophyte1

*Please feel free to take those pictures and put them where they go*

Please feel free to insert those pictures back into the original post, assuming that is possible, and do away with my picture post. I'd think it would be much less of a source of irritation if they were there to be seen in the original post


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## gunrunnerjohn

I took the lazy man's way with the pictures. To move them I'd have to do a lot more typing.


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## sjm9911

Looks good, and will help a lot.


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## geophyte1

*My 364 Rebuild Experiences*















































I've "rebuilt" (cleaned up is a more correct description for the most part) two log loaders during the past two years. The first one was a younger (by a year or three) model post war with the lighter gray paint and with some improvements. I bought the second one because it was one of the first with the darker gray crinkle paint, it was a good deal and I wanted one to share. I’ve learned a lot working with these and I thought I’d share what I can remember.
On the first or later model, about the only repair issues I had to deal with was one of the two straight metal spring tabs where the dump guide is fastened to the loader inside the motor compartment was detached. I used a small amount of J-B Weld to re-attach the spring tab and it has held. 
The second issue was the pin that holds the belt pulley on the drive shaft. It was broken off and recessed in the shaft on both sides. As I have posted before, once I realized it had to be a pin that was broken, I pushed it out and can’t remember if I bought or made a new pin.
The third issue was the belt and I'm sure I've posted before about that but wanted to add to it. I've experimented with numerous types of 5/8" red wrapping ribbon and at least two adhesives. For an adhesive, I first tried Super Glue and it stayed too stiff at the joint and caused problems feeding under the light. The best joining solution was a Wonder-Under iron-on type material – probably Wal-Mart version. It was/is very flexible and has kept working. As for the belt ribbon material I tried different grosgrain ribbon and they all performed pretty well but the very best ribbon was the cheapest. I bought my wife several types of polyester satin ribbon, not grosgrain, with Christmas writing on it at Dollar General and made a belt out of the 5/8” red one and the improved, or newer, version of the 364 operated flawlessly with that ribbon and the older version operates much better. It doesn’t matter if the writing on the ribbon is on top or turned under. I do see signs that the ribbon won’t last forever but as long as you figure out the exact length you need with your particular loader to obtain the optimal belt tension, they are easy to make and not very hard to replace. I cut a 53.75” length of ribbon and then overlap the ends ½”, for a total belt length of 53.25” and bond the overlaid ends with the wonder under material. 
The log “jogger” that keeps the logs moving onto the belt on the lower end must leave as much of the moving belt exposed as possible. It made a big difference in the logs moving on the belt and then moving out and I’m probably talking 32nds or 16ths of an inch. The tabs on the jogger that attach it to the loader get misshapen and don’t keep the jogger plate as far back as they can. One word of warning, those tabs will easily break off of the jogger plate. I broke one off and used super glue to put it back on and it is still working. Because it was off I took the liberty of filing a very small indention into the jogger before reattaching the tab so that the tab was flush with the jogger upper edge and also that gave it more connecting surface area for a stronger glue job. I just measured and there is 13/32nds of an inch of the 5/8” belt exposed next to the jogger plate on the later model loader. I do not try to bend those jogger plate tabs once I have the jogger plate in place on the loader and the jogger plate works great and stays in place.
The older model 364 I have is different in the following ways:
1.	Paint is crinkled and darker.
2.	It has one less underside belt roller near the tail pulley. With a properly tensioned belt this is not a problem.
3.	Problem-Sloped ramp that the belt slides on is very slightly lower vertically at the base so that logs don’t contact the belt as soon as they do on the later models and consequently they don’t progress up the slope. This leads to logs bunching up at the light and riding over one another. 
Solution - A quick fix for this is to place a piece of thin cardboard beneath the belt where the ramp starts up. Something like a piece of a Lipton tea box maybe ½” wide and 2” long. You’ll need to bend the end of the cardboard sliver underneath the beginning of the ramp so that it will stay in place. A thin piece of metal would be good as well as long as there are no sharp edges.
4.	There is no metal tab helping to hold the plastic bakelite triangle at the drive end of the loader in place and to help guide the logs off the pulley and belt just a little sooner. As long as the belt is working properly, the plastic triangle is staying in place and the log (lumber) loader has THE proper angle from front to back and side to side which is obtained by shimming under the front bottom and possibly either end or a corner of the loader for the optimal log dumping operation, the logs will generally roll off almost as well as with the later model.
When I received my first 364 loader, which was the later model, it had a red rubber band around the pulley that is almost as wide as the pulley. Either some owner had put it there or Lionel made some like this. I believe this is a major improvement and helps the pulley grab the belt much better. I found some decently wide rubber bands and put two around the older model’s pulley when I received it.
I just remembered that I had to buy motor tension springs for both loaders. The younger loader had some type of flat spring that I’ve seen mentioned elsewhere in this forum but either I could never figure out how to install it correctly or it had lost some of its spring properties and would no longer work as intended.
I’ve attached a few pictures to go with some of the explanations.


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## RWL

I like the red rubber band around the drive wheel since that's not likely to add anything sticky to the belt. Anything sticky on the belt has the potential to get on the belt and possibly hang up on one of the flat surfaces. That said however, I'm reading this thread after putting double sided adhesive tape on the drive wheel. I don't know how long it will stay sticky, but the belt does not slip.

It is important to get the belt routed over the rollers correctly. It should go UNDER the SMALL diameter ridged roller and over all of the others. Mine had not been set up correctly when I got it. It did not work with the belt going under the larger roller immediately preceding the small roller. The drive roller would not move the belt very well and the belt got hung up, particularly when the splice came to the rollers.

I have not had to replace my belt however I was looking at the material and it looks like ordinary waterproof nylon cloth that you buy at the fabric store. I have used that fabric to cover instrument cases I've made. It's a very durable material and should be better than the ribbon described above, plus the waterproof backing is somewhat stickier than the nylon surface. 

It's late so I haven't posted my photos, but I took extensive pictures when refurbishing mine and will post them later. I'm wondering whether to start a new thread or add a 9th page to this one. The best information normally comes in the first page or two of a long thread and it was unusual to find the information I was needing on the 8th page of this one.


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## sjm9911

Lol, adding here will keep all the information in one place, rather them needing to read 20 different threads. That being said , I would love to see pictures. And adding sticky tape will transfer too the belt. So ..........


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## RWL

*364 Log loader Rebuild Photos*

As promised, here are photos of the rebuild of my 364 log loader. It wouldn't run at all when I got it. I could hear a hum from the motor but the large drive pulley didn't turn. The tines / forks which guild the logs to the car were bent and jammed. When I bought it at the yard sale, I asked the seller if it ran. He said "yes, the last time we ran it 35 years ago". When I got it open, clearly it had been monkeyed with so it probably wasn't running right then.
Overview of log loader first. Then here's the rear. There are two panels which must be removed. The larger right panel lies over top of the smaller panel and the large panel must be removed first. You will need to remove both rear panels. I'm going to break this up into more than one message to keep the text organized with the photos.


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## RWL

*Rebuild Part 2*

The large drive pulley is held on loosely with a stamped sheet metal nut. A pin in the pulley's shaft matches a slot in the rear of the pulley and drives it. There's no need to put the nut on tightly. In the second photo, note the flat spring that supplies additional tension to the belt. Earlier models are reported to have had a coil spring rather than a flat spring. I have no idea if the flat spring in mine is an original or something the previous owner cobbled up. My flat spring only supplies tension when the belt grabs somewhere and pulls the motor up. The tension is primarily applied by the weight of the motor. The third photo is of the left end of the loader and shows the INcorrect routing of the belt. The previous owner had it routed under the large pulley and over the small grooved pulley. The pulleys are held in place with pins. You push them up with your finger and can then pick out the flanged end of the pin to remove the pulleys as seen in the fourth photo.


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## RWL

*Rebuild Part 3*

I don't know what happened to the Part 3 I posted. It never appeared, so I'm doing it over. The tines / forks were bent and twisted on mine and needed to be removed for straightening. The shaft of the tines is held in place on each side by a bent piece of sheet metal with a notch at the end as seen in the photo below. The sheet metal "holder" was missing from the left side. I used a short length of angle with 1/2" legs glued in the proper position to hold up the end of the shaft. To remove the tines, depress the sheet metal catch on one side and slide the shaft over the catch. In the first photo the shaft is where I found it when the loader was first opened. It should have been in the notch on the top of the catch.


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## RWL

*Rebuild Part 4*

Now we get into servicing the motor and gearbox. It's easiest if you desolder the wire to the motor so you can fully remove the mechanism from the loader. Here's where that old 150 or 250 Watt soldering gun comes in handy and worked better than the Weller pencil soldering iron. Remove the three screws indicated in the photo below to open the gearbox. In addition to grease that had turned to wax, I found metal chips inside from when the gearbox was manufactured. They were aluminum or pot metal and looked like the type of chip you'd see from a milling operation rather than when the holes were tapped. It's a wonder it ran when it was new and explains why the motor just hummed when I first applied power. You can remove the two shafts with worm gears just by lifting them out. The worm from the armature pulls out from the motor end once you remove the brush holder from the motor. It's easiest to desolder the wire from the coil to the one brush lead to remove the brush holder. Once it's removed, degrease the brushes and clean the armature with a scotch brite pad or carefully with a small wire wheel in your dremel. At this point, reassembly is the reverse of disassembly. I used Superlube synthetic grease with teflon for the gearbox. I vacillate between Triflow and Dexron Automatic Transmission Oil for shaft bushings and journals but both work. If either of those oils degrades over time it must take decades because I've never found either to get gummy.


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## RWL

*Rebuild Part 5 - the belt*

My belt had been incorrectly installed when I received it. It should go under the small ridged roller and over all of the larger rollers. When it was misrouted under the one large roller so that it was dragging severely on the short metal belt ramp, the belt would barely move. Not knowing my routing was incorrect, I took a strip of sandpaper and attached it to the plastic drive wheel with double sided sticky tape. The belt still didn't move very well with the sandpaper driver, and shortly after this I discovered the correct routing of the belt. The tape didn't hold very well to the open mesh sandpaper, which rapidly came off, but it did a great job of grabbing the belt, so I left the double sided sticky tape on the plastic drive wheel. It's easy to remove the metal drive rollers and clean them, so I'd recommend doing that for all of them while you have the belt off. Others have recommended NOT using any oil on the shafts of these pulleys, probably because the oil can migrate to the under surface of the belt and make it slip on the plastic drive wheel. Note that the large plastic drive wheel is slightly crowned / rounded. Don't remove this; it helps to keep the belt centered on the wheel.


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## Mark Boyce

Thank you for all the posts and photographs. I have two of them, one probably needs some work. The other my friend gave me already working. I think I still need to replace the ribbon. I was thinking of getting them both working and then selling one. I will have no room for two.


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## sjm9911

Great job on the restore. Just to add, as I remember the belt worked just fine as it was, if you're needs help I think it may be stretched out a bit. Might be time to get a new one.i did use the grip spay on the logs, and that helped a lot. Maybe instead of the sandpaper you could spray the gears instead, if the new belt dosent work.


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## T-Man

*My spin on this*

My belt came apart and the one for 30 bucks on ebay is still rotting there. So for lack of dimensions I investigated and measured 9/16 " wide the belt is close to 55 3/4" long. When I glued it I used a 3" overlap for a final length of 52 3/4" .

The old belt was cleaned with soap, water and a stiff brush.

The glue is a fabric glue water based, Liquid Stitch available at W mart. for under three bucks. I kept it thin and wiped the excess. Let it dry overnight between two metal plates. This stuff is strong and has held up well.


I did have a traction problem and resorted to just electrical tape on the big wheel. A trick from Ben's Trains. 


The joint did give problems too, right at the rollers, so I had to work out the belt on a curve and just stretch and flex it. It had to be broken in. 


It works now. I never thought I would need this thread! 


It is working


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## mjh

erkenbrand said:


> To bring it back to life, I ordered a new belt from the Train Tender, and then proceeded to tear down the whole thing. It's really easy to tear it down:
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> 5. Now, using contact cleaner and a Scotchbrite, clean up all that pretty copper so it shines again. Including the brushes.
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> 6. Pull the armature out from the gear box. It should come out easily, it's just a screw gear.
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> 7. Pull the gearbox apart. Check out that really old, hardened grease. Have fun cleaning everything!  Take your time and get it all out of there. WD-40 makes this easier. When you're done, you should have a pile of bits like this:
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> 11. Now, you're ready to strap on the new belt and put the rear plates back on.
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> Once all of that was done the loader worked like a champ! I can't wait to get it permanently installed in my layout.
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> Good luck with your rebuild! I hope this helps a bit.


Do you still have the pictures? I have one and I want to bring it back to life. Thanks


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## T-Man

There are plenty of pictures. RWL posted the most recent starting a post #80. ON post #69 the member geophyte1 snagged the originals and posted the link. Then he reposted them in post #73


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