# 6220 Diesel with no energy



## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

I've had this 6220 bell ringer for a few months. When I first got it it ran strong. Then at some point it seems to have lost its zip. It will run ok alone, but as soon as I add cars it barely goes. I took the gear wheels apart and that worm drive spins fast if the unit is well grounded, but when I put it back together the wheels are tight and hard to turn. It seems to jam. I tried spraying some silicone around to free it up. The gears don't look worn or dry. I'm not sure how freely they should turn by hand. Is there anything else I can try? Is the problem most likely mechanical or electrical?
I really like this engine and miss the ding, ding ding as it goes around the track. I'd appreciate any tips to help me fix this problem.
Thanks,
Newtown Joe


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Newtown, my 6220 is a great puller. It has to be with the magnetraction. When you took apart the motor did you make sure the washers, spacers were all put back in the right place. I once took apart a motor and a washer fell out that I didn't see. It took me forever to figure out why it didn't work. Most people here use motor oil for lubrication and lithium grease on the worm drives. Also pictures help as there are 2 models of this switcher. Since you seem to have a bunch of Lionel stuff, greenbergs repair and operating guide for Lionel Trains is almost a must own.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

I can get Greenberg's repair from the library and you're right I need to know all the parts to see if something is missing. I'll check it out. One thing I read was that if a wheel gets worn it could be too close to and attracting the magnet and acting like a brake. When I tested it, a few times it spun the wheels like normal. I'm also suspecting a poor ground of some kind. This is going to require time to figure out and I'll keep you posted.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Some of those motors also have a small ball bearing in the well of the truck that is essential to operation. It's very easy to lose this item in the disassembly process. There are also two models of this locomotive.

Here's some info on each of the models.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

I've tried different thing and had it mostly apart, but now the motor isn't turning. Yesterday it was. This needs a lot more analysis.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

From the book Joe.

In some cases excessive play in the driving wheels may cause one of the wheels to rub against the magnet, thus acting like a brake. This condition can be relieved by removing the Plain wheel and inserting one or two # 671m-19 Thrust washers between the rubbing wheel and the axle bushing.

Note, The magnets are cemented to the casting with a special oven baked cement and SHOULD NOT BE REMOVED, since they can not be re-cemented easily.

I would bet that the T man could "re-cement" them. :smokin:

If you buy those thrust washers pick up some extras they are used for more trains and are good to have in your repair parts box. If you buy from Jeff the train tender, they are listed in his bulk parts section you will get a better price then just buying a few.

The are other washers & clips you should pickup as long as your having those shipped if you buy some, the other washers & clips are used on a lot of different trains & rolling stock.
They don't cost that much but come in handy in a lot of applications, good to have in your parts box also.

Do you have a lot of play in the wheels?
Let me know I will dig up the other part numbers.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I dug mine out for a minute. The wheels have a bit of play in them but she runs fine. As for the wheels turning freely they do but it takes a bit of force. It doesn't turn as freely as other engines I have. I'm guessing because of all the gears. Make sure the gears are clean, and without burs. I used a toothpick or pick to clean mine out then oiled it.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

I got it running again. I dropped one of the brushes out while taking it apart. It seems to run strong off the track but slows and speeds up on the track. I'm starting to think it's the electricity on the track. When it approaches my signal and auto watchman it stops then further on it picks up speed. The confusing part is I also run a 2026 on the same track without a problem..


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am sure the bell ringer requires more throttle to run than the 2026. The steamer when it is in good running condition requires very little throttle. I am finding the armature supports wear on the diesels and replacement may be needed. Anytime you have a worm wheel on a power axle the axle bushings must be good. Once a bushing wears the worm gear will wear too and slip. This is evident on the rounding of the gears teeth. I have a Northern diesel. It runs ok but not very fast and pulls four or five cars. On my short curves track that is pretty good.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Glad it's running again. T-man has to be right about the power drain. Out of curiosity what transformer are you running and how many aaccessories? How big is the track? Are there lights on the layout?


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

It's 7 straight on the sides and two straight on the curves. Then I have two crossing flashers and two crossing gates and an operating watchman. In addition there are 3 street lights and a few misc lights for billboards. All run by a 1033 90 Watt transformer. Do you think I need an upgrade?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'm thinking you are pushing it on a 90 w transformer. Lights eat up a lot of power. I could be wrong. But if you keep adding stuff you definitely need an upgrade. You could go for a larger transformer or get another small one and run the accessories and lights separately. Me I would get a bigger transformer and use the 90 w as the default lighting transformer. I'm sure others will chime in with other options. Maybe someone will even calculate the power nessasery for your current layout. I'm still for bigger is better.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm also going to take the brushes out for a check up. I tend to over lubricate and think some oil may have found its way to them. I'll look for a bigger transformer at the Allentown show. I guess you can't go wrong with that extra power.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm thinking your layout (approximately 100x50 if my math's correct) is a bit much for 90 watts with your accessories. Myself, I'd shoot for something along the lines of KW (190 watts) or ZW (250 or 275 watts). Especially if you plan any kind of expansion. For a single train a TW (175 watt) would do the trick. Those can be found fairly reasonable and are easily repaired for minimal costs.

A little oil on the brushes shouldn't hurt, I tend to be generous as well, especially on a fresh clean and lube.

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Remember that the TW actually is two transformer coils, and neither one is equal to more than the 90W transformer. Also, keep in mind that PW transformers are rated by input power, so a 90W transformer will be lucky to give you 70-75 watts. The ZW that is rated at 275W will maybe get you 220-230. I've had about a dozen over the past couple years go through here, and I did a power test on a couple of them after a rebuild, 230 was the max I got and still maintained close to 16 volts output voltage from them.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

I replaced the springs and brushes. It made no difference. It just seems to barley want to run, like it gets stuck. Well, I'm stuck and don't know what to try next.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, let's try to isolate it a bit more. If you directly hook up the loco to the transformer does it run or cut in and out? This way we can eliminate the track as the culprit. One step at a time.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

It's erratic. When I hook directly to the transformer sometimes it appears to spin normally but more often it's slow or jams. If it's upright with weight on the wheels it will briefly take off then stop. On the track it runs slow and stops. When pulling a load it barely runs for a foot or so then stops.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, does it stop then go in reverse? Try moving the e unit switch and test it like that. Maybe the e unit is sticking. Sometimes a bit of contact cleaner will do the trick or cleaning up the contacts. Just an idea. I'll have others if this doesn't work. Let's see if the e-unit is cycling correctly.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

The e unit seems to cycle ok. forward, neutral then reverse.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, I would still get some contact cleaner and spray it. If you can get some pictures of the wiring that would help also. You don't check to see if you were missing a bushing right? These guys are better with wiring them me. Also a cheap multimeter in these situations is help full. Is the wiring original? My thing is you say it jams, to me that's not loss of power it's a e-unit sticking, missing parts or a object stuck, or worn gears. Anyway that's my experience. I could be wrong. But I'll take mine apart later to see if I get any ideas.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

Right now, my best guess is the gears are jamming or getting caught by the magnet. I'll get some pics posted tonight. As far as bushings I checked Greenberg's diagrams and don't see anything I'm missing. I've noticed that when it stops the wheels are hard to turn until I free them up. I've had it apart as much a possible without removing the wheels which is out of my league at this point.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Now you've said a mouthful, and probably are onto the problem. If the wheels are hard to turn, that's a giant clue! As has been previously stated, you may have crap in the gears, or they may have worn to the point they're jamming.

What I'd probably do in this situation is take the power truck and remove the side frames, collector roller, etc. Then I spray them with carb cleaner to clean out EVERYTHING. and closely inspect all the gears, especially the mating gear for the motor worm gear. Also, look for any broken teeth or just some junk stuck in the gears.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell ringer*

OK, I'll give them a thorough bath tonight, but shouldn't I re-lubricate before running them again? Also, I noticed one wheel can be moved in and out a bit and the gear becomes somewhat misaligned with its mating gear..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You most certainly should lube it properly before running it again!  I think at this point we're in the "finding out what's broken" stage, so cleaning it up so you can see any wear makes sense, at least to me. The gear in the truck us usually brass, and they can wear if run a lot or run without proper lubrication.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

I haven't had it that long and at first it ran pretty good. After a few weeks of occasional running I noticed it would start to slow but then get back to normal. Then at some point the problem got worse and worse. I can't figure out if it was something I did, but it seems unlikely that after 63 years something suddenly wore out. The gears looked to be in pretty good shape and turn by hand. I'm thinking something got in there and is intermittently blocking the mechanism. Hopefully a thorough cleaning and re lube will make a difference. 
Thanks for all your help and I'll update you after I try a few more fixes. I can't give up on this one because it's high on my favorites list.

Newtown Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good luck, I'm sure it can be revived.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6229 Bell Ringer Pics*

Here some pic but I don't think they tell much.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, wait for another opinion but that gear looks a bit worn. I believe it's the Pinon gear. Also try turning the worm gear. In both years it had eEaither bearings or a bearing washers. Maybe they could be worn out? At the bottom of the screw( the peice attached to the motor, you should see a retaining ring(open ended washer). Also too much oil, just a bit or it gets all over the track! ( unless it was for cleaning purposes only. I would also take a dremal or scotch Brite pad to the wheels, and then wipe with alcohol to get get residual oil off. Pictures tell a lot!.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

The worm gear turns easily. I put the diesel on the track and noticed near the transformer it runs much faster and about normal, but when it gets a distance away it slows down and stops. I run a 2023 on this track with no such issues. Could it be this engine just requires higher wattage? I also noticed that this started when I added many more lights and signals. I don't know why this diesel would require a lot more wattage than any other, but I suspect an electrical shortfall either from the track or the motor. I think mechanically it's ok but these are just hunches. At Allentown I think I'll buy and upgrade from my current 110.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Without the motor installed, do the truck wheels turn freely? If there is no resistance to turning, then I'd be looking closer at the worm gear and it's mating gear, mostly the mating gear. They get worn when they aren't lubed properly at some point in their life, and that can cause extra friction. If there is nothing in the drive gears on the side, it's hard to believe they're causing the issue if the wheels turn freely.

It could also be something as simple as a shorted turn in the field or armature, that would pull more power and make the motor run poorly.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

Without the motor installed the wheels turn with some resistance but they don't bind or stall. Since under certain conditions it runs normal on the track, I'm thinking electrical.
Also, I noticed the lights aren't very bright. Maybe, as you say, a short or something draining power.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There should be no felt resistance with no motor installed. If you put that truck on the tracks and give it a push, it should go a long ways before it stops. If it doesn't, I'd be looking there for the issue.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It could be a power issue, but if you hooked it up directly to the transformer( with the track disconnected) and had the same issues, It has to be something else.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

Maybe I better start looking for a replacement truck.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the truck doesn't roll freely without the motor installed, it either needs serious lubrication and cleaning or it has a problem.

Did you take that power truck and clean ALL the lube out of it, then relube it with light oil? See if that improves it's rolling characteristics.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

I cleaned and re-lubed the truck gears. Off the motor they turn, but seem tight , not stuck, but tight. It takes some pressure to make them turn. They are not loose and don't spin freely. I'm not sure what is normal.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If it's taking any pressure with no motor in the truck, that's your problem. Those wheels and gears should turn very freely by themselves. The pressure you're having to exert is also going to wear out the brass gear very quickly, so you'll need to address that.

See if you can determine what is causing the tightness by closely examining the gear train and rocking each wheel set back and forth. You should be able to zero in on where the binding is.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

OK, I think I'm getting closer to the problem. I didn't realize you could prey the drive wheel apart. So with some persuasion with a screw driver I separated the axles. I cleaned them a bit and pressed them back in place. I put it on the track and it had much more zip, for awhile. It was even pulling three passenger cars without stopping, then back to where it was before. Then I remembered this:

"In some cases excessive play in the driving wheels may cause one of the wheels to rub against the magnet, thus acting like a brake. This condition can be relieved by removing the Plain wheel and inserting one or two # 671m-19 Thrust washers between the rubbing wheel and the axle bushing."

I'm pretty certain this is the problem. The wheels got tighter after it ran for awhile. I'll try the washer solution.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

One thing I noticed is that the wheel bushing on the outside wheel is about flat against the truck. It seems to me it should be extended out a bit like on the other side in order to keep the wheel away from the truck and magnet. Why this is I don't know. Anyone know how this should look? Maybe this is where those washers will come in handy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you need axle spacers, you might consider something like these, I cut them round and slip them over the axle. I credit T-Man with this idea, and it worked great.










These solved a similar issue I had in this thread: http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6672&highlight=conrail


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Great idea.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

I went to the hardware store and asked for a thrust washer and the guy had no idea what that was, so I settled for two stainless steel flat washers. I'll try them tonight. They fit pretty close over the axle and my plan is to keep the wheel away from the truck which is what I suspect is my problem. I think the outer bushing either wore down or somehow got pushed in and is allowing the wheel to contact the side of the truck and magnet. 
What exactly is a thrust washer? Does that indicate what it's made of or just what it's used for?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, metallic washers may cause the same issue as the wheel rubbing, which is why I'd try the plastic models. 

A "thrust washer" is normally used with bearings of some sort. Here's a clip that says it better than I can.

A thrust washer is designed to create a surface that a bearing can roll on or a load can be applied to. To meet this requirement a thrust washer must:


Be hardened to a hardness that matches the balls or needles
Have a high surface finish for smooth rolling which reduces friction
Maintain much tighter dimensional tolerances
Generally a thrust washer has more precise tolerances than a commodity washer, specifically in the thickness, id and od. This helps to ensure the proper operation of the bearing and a secure fit in an assembly. The tolerances are often plus or minus .001 to .002 of an inch.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*6220 Bell Ringer*

Any idea where I can buy them? Is it a train item or just for general use?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I'd try the plastic spacers first, see if that solves your issue. The washers will also be magnetic, so I'm not sure they'll do better than the wheel.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Newtown Joe said:


> Any idea where I can buy them? Is it a train item or just for general use?


The washer you're referring to is a Lionel part number, not a generic number. You'll need to order from someone line Jeff at ttender.com or other source you choose. Jeff lists them out at 20 cents each plus shipping. I'm with GRJ on this one though.

Carl


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