# latest CRUSHING Lionel disappointment



## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Great anticipation as i got shipping notice from Ro on my UP E6 AA units.

Arrived about 90 minutes ago. Whee!

Not so fast, as Lee Corso would say.

small problem. piece broken off nose of lead unit. can fix myself.

small/med problem. smoke hatch on trailing unit wedged in. had to remove shell to pop it out. again, can fix myself.

*HUGE STINKY PROBLEM* both powered units inoperative. lead unit moves a quarter inch in either direction then stops. reprogramed with lionel on the line and now it gives the cab light blink. trailing unit just blinks.

have decided to return to lionel as an exchange with Ro will not, as i learned with the F3 units, necessarily deliver a working unit. 

I have said these will be the last engines I buy. This seals that deal.

This bothers me more than the F3 debacle.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

How disappointing for you. You wait all this time and then this happens. I can understand your statement saying that you won’t buy any more engines from Lionel.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2018)

I'm sorry to hear this, Forrest. You've had more than your fair share of defective locomotives from Lionel. What is wrong with Lionel? And it seems to be on the high end locomotives. I have 5 LC+ locos and all have been fine right out of the box. I can understand a detail part broken and stuff like that, and even the rare loco that doesn't run but many locos that don't run? Come on Lionel, get your act together.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Forrest,

So sorry to hear about this. Your post sounds like how I felt when I got so frustrated over the 21" passenger car debacle earlier this year that OGR's dictator emeritus didn't want to hear about on his precious forum.

Lionel seems to be managing to quality issues here in the states rather than addressing quality over in Asia at assembly time. When we're lucky enough to get products that work, it's a great feeling: i.e., I was 2 for 2 on the VisionLine Niagara, as well as quite a number of GN F3 powered units and SuperBass B-units. However, there's nothing more frustrating than to spend several hundred dollars or $2K on a bunch of stuff -- only to have these things arrive with trouble... or worse yet, DOA. 

I returned by Santa Fe F3's to Charlie Ro, because I wasn't pleased with the finish AND one of the B-units roof tops wouldn't seat properly because the smoke unit duct-work interfered with the proper fit of the rooftop panel. The factory HAD to have seen that misfit when they put that unit in the box. And there's nothing more frustrating than when we place a new locomotive on the tracks... only to have it fail after traveling a couple of feet. 

The last of my Lionel powered units due in this year yet will be the Spirit of the Union Pacific #1943 SD70ACe along with the METCA special-offering twin brother #9026 SD70ACe. METCA was nice enough to work with me and transfer my deposit money from the ill-fated Milk Car project unfolding in Romania over to METCA's UP #9026 locomotive, so I have less of a balance due on the upcoming locomotive. METCA stepped up to do the right thing by me. But that's another example of problems Lionel is facing these days with their overseas suppliers. I'm sure Ryan and Dave are good people at Lionel -- just overwhelmed with the BS that's going on dealing with poor quality issues in their overseas factories.

I have no plans to purchase future Lionel motive power in 2019 aside from Charlie Nassau's special-edition Western Maryland Challenger w/aux tender... and potentially a UP4141 GHWB set depending on how that offering is packaged. I sold my Legacy UP Challenger in sealed mint condition (to Aaron here on the forum a couple of years ago), because I really preferred having an East-Coast livery Challenger. So when Charlie Nassau announced his exclusive run of 25 WM steamers, I thought.... "Now is the time". I'm just hoping those are made to Lionel's VisionLine caliber of product.

Same with the GHWB commemorative train.... I'm hoping that's built to VisionLine standards as well.

Otherwise.... I'm moving into wait-and-see mode with Lionel: namely, see what's delivered and THEN purchase if the market feedback is good AND it's something that's truly special. Those are now my criteria for Lionel motive power purchases.

David


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

I knew that Lionel Company was over rated. I have not had a single warrantee issue from any of my Marx trains in 60 years.

Dan


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Very sorry to learn of your disappointment. From what I have been hearing this is becoming more common for both Lionel and MTH. I hope the push back is heard loud and clear at their headquarters. But it sounds like the OGR forum won't allow it's members to participate. That's a shame. But when you are a manufacturer driven forum, what can you expect?

Art


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

That's very frustrating Forrest. I feel your pain. Having my paid-for Legacy Mogul still in Lionel limbo awaiting repairs, I know how you feel.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lionel seems to be managing to quality issues here in the states rather than addressing quality over in Asia at assembly time.


Can't these be engineered, manufactured and delivered as sub-assemblies and parts - and do all the final assembly, quality control and packing - stateside?

I know other small manufacturers that do this - and it seems to deliver a higher quality product.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

BUMMER, Lionel's quality issues are over the top. I would be very hesitant to purchase any Lionel locomotives.

Bill


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2018)

This would "seal the deal" for me as well, Forrest. Happy nothing on order from them now. They need to take a very hard look at the lack of quality control.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

PatKn said:


> That's very frustrating Forrest. I feel your pain. Having my paid-for Legacy Mogul still in Lionel limbo awaiting repairs, I know how you feel.


Pat, not sure if you're aware... but I believe Ryan Kunkle mentioned the "repaired" Moguls are now back here in the States, and EACH locomotive is due to be tested in NC before it's shipped back to its respective owner. ETA to your door is supposed to be shortly after the New Year.

I hope there's FINALLY a happy ending to this long debacle.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Sad news Fab. Crossing my fingers on my only Lionel pre order, an RS11.
The Niagaras seem to have few issues mostly related to smoke units. I wonder if they were made in the same place that made the CCII version which was not one of Lionel's usual sources. The new ones are virtually identical to the old ones save the electronics and added smoke units.

Pete


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Thanks David. I did not know that. Finally some good news - Maybe

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

I had a similar issue with a Lionel legacy Alco S2 switcher. It was brand new and when I tried to run it on my test track, it moved hesitantly and stopped dead.

I discovered by accident , that if I pushed down on the engine when applying power, it worked. It turned out the wheels were "overly" blackened at the factory. They needed cleaning in order for the locomotive to operate properly. 

The traction tires were also oversized, causing intermittent loss of contact. I replaced the Lionel tires with MTH tires and the engine runs perfectly now.

It might be worth a try and see before sending the set back...

Tom


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess you saw my post on the Legacy H10.  While I did eventually get a working unit, I had to do it myself!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The more I hear about these Lionel fiascos, the more I'm glad to be an MTH only guy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

MTH has had some issues as well, seems nobody is immune.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Lehigh74 said:


> The more I hear about these Lionel fiascos, the more I'm glad to be an MTH only guy.


MTH isn't scot free my friend... I have a CP Holiday engine that lost all the sound... Just sayin'.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

It keeps getting better and better doesn’t it when it comes to Lionel


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## Matt Kramer (Jun 17, 2017)

That’s terrible... and it makes me want to stay away from even buying the Lionel Budweiser General set that has just come out. I really want it, but don’t want to risk getting a paperweight. I figure I will only buy the cars in that set if somebody does a break-up on eBay... and just have my 8701 General from 1977 pull them. Come on Lionel, you can do better than this. I really wanna give you some money, but the quality’s not there.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Sorry to hear this FORREST. Hope it gets resolved.

When Lionel stopped putting passengers in their cars I knew something was amiss. Seem to me they are getting cheaper and cheaper?


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Talk about ruining your day. 

Starts out with excitement, anticipation and lots of hope.

Ends up with disappointment, anger and a huge let down.

Sorry you day went this way.

Maybe someday the Q/A will return to this wonderful hobby that saps so much of our time, emotion and $$$.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Sorry your having to deal with this. They're charging quality prices, but not delivering quality product. I hope Lionel's repair techs can fix this. It would seem they would be getting complaints from dealers about the amount of returns.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

laz57 said:


> ....
> When Lionel stopped putting passengers in their cars I knew something was amiss. Seem to me they are getting cheaper and cheaper?


Ding... Ding... Ding... Ding... Ding!!!!!! Give George a prize!!! 

My feelings exactly. That never sat well with me either. Lionel tried to make that medicine go down smoother by telling gullible enthusiasts how easy it would be to access the new ABS interiors. And then by the 2nd production run of 21" ABS cars, the factories got sloppy... and too much adhesive worked its way onto the car bodies -- thereby making it next to impossible to access the interiors without damaging some part of the car.  It was doable -- but not nearly as easy as we were told it could be done when Lionel cut over from aluminum to ABS for its high-end passenger cars.

Actually, that was another sleazy side-step by Lionel. They told us how much more expensive aluminum was to work with, and ABS would help alleviate those costs. But have we seen any reduction in price for the high-end passenger cars? Nope!!! 

So now we have cars made with cheaper materials, sloppy workmanship, and bland interiors with no passengers -- yet pretty much the same prices we paid when the cars were made with aluminum, better workmanship, and better interiors WITH passengers. This is one of the reasons I have absolutely ZERO respect for the clowns making the decisions at Lionel. Very likely the worst C-level crew at Lionel since I got back into the 3-rail side of the hobby in the late 1970's. These guys can't move on fast enough.

The only nice new feature about the 21" passenger cars is they now come standard with flicker-free LED lighting.

David


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i forget how many HO geared steam [and some diesel] loco i've bought over the years, probably several dozen, and NONE dead , actually none that needed any work at all ... and you paid how much for those ??


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Well said DAVID:smilie_daumenpos:. Totally agree with your assessment. I can still here the Lionel people at York saying that we can't please everyone. Some say to less of an amount of people some say to many people in the cars. What a line of crap! They just should have said we want to be cheap and be done with it.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I'm going to try install a nonflickering system in my passenger cars, Gunrunnerjohn said it would be too big for the car or I'm remembering it wrong which is nothing new.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What did I say would be too big for a car? If you're talking about my lighting regulators, I doubt I ever said that.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What did I say would be too big for a car? If you're talking about my lighting regulators, I doubt I ever said that.


Well I did say I probably remembered it wrong.:goofball:


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Wow. I can't say I blame you. 

Got me all worried about those Black Bonnet Pa's Lionel is making for Pat's Trains. I hope Pat doesn't get screwed by Lionel with poor quality product he has to take back.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

I have bought 7 powered units from Lionel this year. There has been a problem with each of them. The problems were wide ranging, but all clearly originated at the factory. 

Example of minor: a broken coupler where part of the coupler was loose in the box, but part of the coupler was missing. 

Example of major: the B unit that needed both motors and the shell replaced. 

Example of SMH: the RUN/PGM switch that malfunctioned because the pin outs were wired incorrectly. 

This suggests significant issues throughout the manufacturing process.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What did I say would be too big for a car? If you're talking about my lighting regulators, I doubt I ever said that.


No, it wasn't your lighting regulator. I think I was talking about making my own aaaaahhh I don't remember.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Well the new Lionel E-6 locomotives are now arriving at enthusiasts' doorsteps. The elongated nose/cab configurations never called my name, so I'll pass on these. But here's an excerpt "first impression" from the other place. Sounds like we need to be on the look-out for more of the same factory sloppiness.  

"The A-A runs very smooth and quiet. It is a great puller with 4 motors. Unfortunately when it was delivered I heard a rattling sound in the shipping box. The rear can motor in the rear unit was not mounted to the bracket on the frame. Removed the shell and the motor was floating by its two power wires. I found the two screws and their associated lock washers loose inside the engine. Reassembled and is now fine."​

Once again -- not hitting the panic button. But for $900, it would be nice to not need to get under the covers and fix factory sloppiness.

The other disappointment with these A-A sets: while both units are powered, it's being reported that only the lead A-unit has Railsounds. The trailing A-unit apparently has smoke but no sounds.  Another bean-counter's decision no doubt. 

I'm expecting two Lionel "Spirit of the Union Pacific" SD70Ace diesel locos due any day now -- perhaps after the New Year at the latest from what I've been told -- one #1943 catalog'd offering and one #9026 METCA special-run. Really keeping my fingers crossed on both of these!!!

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Fabforrest said:


> I have bought 7 powered units from Lionel this year. There has been a problem with each of them. The problems were wide ranging, but all clearly originated at the factory.
> 
> Example of minor: a broken coupler where part of the coupler was loose in the box, but part of the coupler was missing.
> 
> ...


WOW, if this is an indication of the percentage of issues with Lionel's top of the line products their service dept. must be buried.

Bill


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

To say that this is beyond a joke is probably the understatement of all time.

At the time that these and the F3s were cataloged, I was sorely tempted what with Legacy sounds being added, promises of stainless steel on the Santa Fe F3s and the E6s in Santa Fe livery that I was sure would use tooling from the excellent TMCC versions. I even asked a couple of dealers for “package deal” prices. I passed however when I got two Lionel steamers with components loose in the box/running issues. 

Everything I have got from Lionel since (mostly long-delayed pre-orders) has been a gamble. I have not had Fab F’s run of bad fortune - I lucked out with the UP Excursion cars and the VL Niagara. But I would not touch these diesels with a 50 foot pole. 

I appreciate that all model train importers have production issues in China but Lionel’s QC is a - well, a joke that has bombed with me. :smilie_daumenneg:


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

“The other disappointment with these A-A sets: while both units are powered, it's being reported that only the lead A-unit has Railsounds. The trailing A-unit apparently has smoke but no sounds. Another bean-counter's decision no doubt. ”

I noticed that when I had to partially remove the shell to poke the wedged in smoke hatch off from inside: no speaker!!

Very disappointing. 

This was just before I discovered that it would not run.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Out of curiosity will either engine run by itself? I would think each engine would have to have its own RCMC board. 

Pete


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Yes. They are independent, which is why the lack of sound in the trailing A is such a perplexing omission.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Perplexing indeed. A friend has Legacy Sharknose ABA set. The B unit is powered, but has no sound. Personally I think even the non-powered units should have sound since it has smoke.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

When junk like this arrives at my door step it's promptly returned. Getting an RA, dealing with return shipping, etc, isn't worth the time. It's easier to return for full refund. My credit card now covers free return shipping on defective products, so I'm no longer paying for that. Makes it very easy decision. 

I'm over dealing with the hassle when some executive isn't putting the pressure on the factory to stop this constant subpar crap they make. 

IMO, we as hobbyist allow to much of this to happen by not returning damaged or defective products. 

The amount of new locomotives you received this year indicates more than you just being 'unlucky'...

Hope it works out for you. I'm sure disappointment is an understatement.


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Sounds in a dummy unit is an expectation for me. I never use the smoke, but sounds are a big deal. So are uncouplers and lights.

Art


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> ....
> 
> I appreciate that all model train importers have production issues in China but Lionel’s QC is a - well, a joke that has bombed with me. .....


I think we'll find most of us here on MTF would have the utmost understanding that things go wrong from time to time. However, even die-hard fans begin to shake their heads when they sense an unhealthy pattern brewing. As I've often said, when Lionel delivers well, it's often a grand slam -- as is largely the case with the very successful VisionLine Niagara. But we're not talking chump-change with some of the stuff noted in this and other threads. 

What we're sensing is a huge disconnect between Lionel Stateside and the company's overseas factories -- almost as if projects get handed off 8,000 miles away and then everybody (enthusiasts as well as Lionel Stateside) keeps their fingers crossed to see what actually awaits them when containers arrive in the States. Unpleasant surprises are becoming the norm rather than the exception. Quite often, even when something runs OK, there may be significant variation(s) from what was depicted in the catalog. For a most recent example, look at the Milwaukee Road scale RPO car: it was catalog'd with a black roof, but was produced with a cream-color roof.  I guess that goes hand-in-hand with the fantasy Hiawatha whose dull gray portions of the catalog'd paint scheme were produced in a noticeably different cream-color too. Did somebody at Lionel Stateside ever even notice these variations?  And if they did, why not communicate those variations to buyers? 

Lionel fanboys will bang their chests and say we're being too harsh. I say we're simply pointing out areas where Lionel has a long way to go before they hit a "best practices" level of doing business with folks who drop a ton of $$$$$ each year on models that fall short of the excitement generated at catalog time. I'm sure building stuff 8,000 miles away comes with challenges that the spreadsheet wizards sitting behind their comfy desks here in the States never even imagined. But when production quirks becomes the norm rather than the exception, then it's time to send people over to the production environments and work through the issues to protect the brand and ensure enthusiasts get the quality for which they're hoping -- and paying! Otherwise the overseas factory workers can give a hoot what you and I think about them.

David


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

86TA355SR said:


> When junk like this arrives at my door step it's promptly returned. Getting an RA, dealing with return shipping, etc, isn't worth the time. It's easier to return for full refund. My credit card now covers free return shipping on defective products, so I'm no longer paying for that. Makes it very easy decision.
> 
> I'm over dealing with the hassle when some executive isn't putting the pressure on the factory to stop this constant subpar crap they make.
> 
> ...


I wonder how many people who don't use the forums have these issues and don't send the product back. I don't have other modelers to advise them. A lot of guys I know are like that.


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I just imagine the possible conversations at Lionel.

"We need to send someone to China to get these things corrected. I'm not going. Neither am I. I know, we can get Mikey to go. But Mikey doesn't speak Chinese. That's not a problem, we'll get an interpreter for him. Does the interpreter need to be a train guy? Why, no one in our company is a train guy, so what difference could it make? Besides these dumb customers will buy anything. Look at all the goofs we have put out and how many did we get back? Speaking of that maybe we don't need to send somebody to China."

Art


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2018)

Suppliers tend to listen to two things:

1. Significant drop in sales.
2. A deluge of customer complaints. 

We as consumers can express our displeasure by not buying the product and/or flooding them with customer complaints. It is anybody's guess as to whether they follow the MTF (doubtful) and they sure won't get to read unfavorable reports on the other guy's platform as advertisers get "special treatment". So an e-mail or letter would probably be the best way to communicate complaints backed up by *real facts*.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lionel fanboys will bang their chests and say we're being too harsh.
> 
> David



They should take off their rose colored glasses.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> Out of curiosity will either engine run by itself? I would think each engine would have to have its own RCMC board.
> 
> Pete


Well, if one could obtain the proper RailSounds board, it's not hard to add sound.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just a sidebar to this discussion. Regarding sound in both engines I see Steve Nelson is selling E6s for 900 bucks and Lionel SD70ACe's for 540. Given under the cover the two engines are almost identical implies two E6s with sound might cost 1080. In effect the lack of sound in the second engine might account for the "discount". 

FWIW I jumped off the Lionel bandwagon many years ago.

Of course adding sound is not a problem at least after the warranty period runs out. 

Pete


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I think we'll find most of us here on MTF would have the utmost understanding that things go wrong from time to time. However, even die-hard fans begin to shake their heads when they sense an unhealthy pattern brewing.
> 
> ...What we're sensing is a huge disconnect between Lionel Stateside and the company's overseas factories -- almost as if projects get handed off 8,000 miles away and then everybody (enthusiasts as well as Lionel Stateside) keeps their fingers crossed to see what actually awaits them when containers arrive in the States. Unpleasant surprises are becoming the norm rather than the exception. And if they did, why not communicate those variations to buyers?
> 
> ...


David:

You write very well and summarize well, but my wonderment comes in as 'when will this impact Lionel's profits or loss? How are we to know if they are receiving less orders, less revenue? I believe Lionel is a privately held company with no requirement to provide financials. 

The fact that they continue to put out catalogs, make product tells me they are making money and are happy with the quality declines and status of the market. 

NOT that they care about what we write and think. Because Lionel is super secretive almost clandestine operation, we as hobbyists may not know until the shoe has dropped that they are closing. 

That they continue on, makes me believe they ARE reaching new hobbyists, at least temporarily until they become dissatisfied. I just don't know because of the lack of information coming from Lionel.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Suppliers tend to listen to two things:
> 
> 1. Significant drop in sales.
> 2. A deluge of customer complaints.
> ...


Brian's right here. But I am not sure I want to take the time if it falls on deaf ears. Lionel is such a super secret company, it's hard to know if they are doing OK with lower quality and higher prices, or not.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Chugman said:


> I just imagine the possible conversations at Lionel.
> 
> "We need to send someone to China to get these things corrected. I'm not going. Neither am I. I know, we can get Mikey to go. But Mikey doesn't speak Chinese. That's not a problem, we'll get an interpreter for him. Does the interpreter need to be a train guy? Why, no one in our company is a train guy, so what difference could it make? Besides these dumb customers will buy anything. Look at all the goofs we have put out and how many did we get back? Speaking of that maybe we don't need to send somebody to China."
> 
> Art


Art that made me laugh but you re onto something. It's a real job too as you can imagine. I have a friend who's daughter does it. The liaison role.

My own daughter could do it in a couple of years. She is a junior in high school who wants to be an engineer. She spent two weeks in China last summer teaching English. She would know engineering, electronics and robotics. 

I'm not suggesting she work for Lionel, but a trade representative role with the person speaking fluid Chinese is quite possible and would pay dividends. Wouldn't that be a fun job!?


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I guess the bottom line why don't they bring it back to the US? I'm serious. Or have them molded there and finished here. I don't know, frustrating these can't be made in America.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Just a sidebar to this discussion. Regarding sound in both engines I see Steve Nelson is selling E6s for 900 bucks and Lionel SD70ACe's for 540. Given under the cover the two engines are almost identical implies two E6s with sound might cost 1080. In effect the lack of sound in the second engine might account for the "discount".
> 
> ....


Pete, wait a minute.... you mean we don't get a "discount" for buying 2 powered units at a time (without needing to lose features)????  

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just playing devils advocate David. 
BTW my MTH Spirit of UP 1943 arrived today. May not get a chance to take pics for a few days. We will have to compare engines.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> .... How are we to know if they are receiving less orders, less revenue? I believe Lionel is a privately held company with no requirement to provide financials.
> 
> The fact that they continue to put out catalogs, make product tells me they are making money and are happy with the quality declines and status of the market.
> 
> NOT that they care about what we write and think. ....


A couple of thoughts, Bryan. First, you're absolutely right in that we don't have any real insight into Lionel's financials. Obviously, they're doing reasonably well though, since they continue to invest in new tooling at times -- for example, they're planning to produce a new UP business car for their GHWB commemorative train -- the first business car built for Lionel's 21" ABS series of passenger cars as far as I know. New tooling ain't cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

Secondly, look at Lionel's S3 re-issue recently, priced at $1,700 MSRP -- whereas the original model released a few years ago was only $1,000 MSRP if I recall correctly. That's a HUGE uptick in pricing for the exact same locomotive with no new features. So Lionel is certainly upping the ante in terms of price for those of us choosing to remain in the "purchasing new product market". If they're showing profits -- or even remaining on a steady plane, it could be the result of fewer buyers spending more for their products.

Lastly, don't think Lionel doesn't care what we write or think. I can tell you first-hand that they spoke up big time to OGR management when the first reports of their 21" passenger cars delivered in early 2018 weren't very glowing -- so much so that yours truly got bounced off that forum (after being a long-time member since November 2001) because my review was too candid. Honest nonetheless, but also very candid. And that didn't sit well with the powers-at-be there when Lionel tightened the screws given the dollars they're spending as an advertiser/sponsor there. I was sent a verbatim excerpt of what was communicated to OGR, and it was so embarrassingly unprofessional I've never repeated it here or anywhere so as not to tarnish that person's image with buyers. But in the big picture, money talks -- let's not kid ourselves.

David


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Just playing devils advocate David.
> BTW my MTH Spirit of UP 1943 arrived today. May not get a chance to take pics for a few days. We will have to compare engines.
> 
> Pete



Just having fun with ya, Pete! 

Did you order the scale-wheels version w/fixed pilot? Or the regular hi-rail version?

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I got the hi rail version. I ordered a George Bush hi rail and then indicated to Steve Nelson if MTH did a scale wheel version to substitute that. From the pics it looked like Lionel has a much nicer pilot but anymore if I have a choice it will MTH until Lionel makes a change. Hope yours is OK.

Pete


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, if one could obtain the proper RailSounds board, it's not hard to add sound.


So, John. Could you do that for me?


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

If you want the same board thats in the other engine, lionel won't sell it to you until its out of warranty. If you can find another EMD board from an engine out of warranty then you can get it now.
In the past Lionel wouldn't sell Legacy or Railsounds boards without an exchange. That changed about a year ago.

Pete


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lastly, don't think Lionel doesn't care what we write or think. I can tell you first-hand that they spoke up big time to OGR management when the first reports of their 21" passenger cars delivered in early 2018 weren't very glowing -- so much so that yours truly got bounced off that forum (after being a long-time member since November 2001) because my review was too candid . . . And that didn't sit well with the powers-at-be there when Lionel tightened the screws given the dollars they're spending as an advertiser/sponsor there. I was sent a verbatim excerpt of what was communicated to OGR, and it was so embarrassingly unprofessional I've never repeated it here or anywhere so as not to tarnish that person's image with buyers. But in the big picture, money talks -- let's not kid ourselves.
> David


David, there's a guy over on the OGR Forum who's posted a huge number of pictures and comments on the defects in Lionel's 21" cars and other products he's received this year. Some of us will know who I mean; seems a little compulsive in his sheer scale of buying, modifying cars and commenting. He hasn't been booted off the Forum or had any threads closed/deleted but then he's spent what must be well into five figures on Lionel products this year alone. 

So money must talk in more ways than one. Personally I have no wish to communicate with Lionel unless I am compelled to (as with their ERR near-fiasco). We'll never get to the bottom of what their business model is and I have stopped caring because frankly only the end product and spare parts matter to me. 

That said, I give them credit for thinking in terms of innovation (VL Niagara, reasonably prototypical bodywork on Excursion cars for example) but the execution is so hit and miss the customer is in what amounts to a crap shoot (in every sense).


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> ….
> 
> We as consumers can express our displeasure by not buying the product...


*^^^^THIS^^^^*


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> David, there's a guy over on the OGR Forum who's posted a huge number of pictures and comments on the defects in Lionel's 21" cars and other products he's received this year...


Please don't take this the wrong way, _THIS_ is what I was talking about earlier when I said hobbyist are too forgiving of the junk being delivered. After multiple product issues, from the same manufacturer, the consumer keeps purchasing, knowing full well the odds are against him or her of getting a quality product.

Second type of hobbyist-"I'll just fix it myself and not return it". Ridiculous, IMO. Hold the manufacturer accountable, return for refund. Not your job to fix new items.

Third hobbyist-Accepts product not as described in catalog after waiting a year for delivery. Hold the manufacturer accountable, return for refund. Not our problem they made it different or didn't control their factory. Quit buying BTO. 

The manufacturer sells its product. No impact to their business. Still makes a profit. So, why change? No need to invest time, money, employee effort when the profit isn't affected. The old saying "If it's not happening to you, it's not happening" ring a bell?

Most companies, not just trains, have complaints. Nature of the beast. Let me ask a rhetorical question-IF you were burned by the same company or service repeatedly, why would you keep punishing yourself knowing full well there is little possibility it will work out in your favor?

This hobby is about fun for me. I receive a lot of joy collecting trains. Recent train purchases aren't Lionel anymore.

In the words of Mr Gump, "that's all I have to say about that!"


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Fabforrest said:


> So, John. Could you do that for me?


If there's a source for the RS board.


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## seacoast (Sep 12, 2010)

Bryan Moran said:


> I guess the bottom line why don't they bring it back to the US? I'm serious. Or have them molded there and finished here. I don't know, frustrating these can't be made in America.


Agreed! Quality control for Lionel and MTH in China is less then desirable.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

86TA355SR said:


> ...
> The manufacturer sells its product. No impact to their business. Still makes a profit. So, why change? No need to invest time, money, employee effort when the profit isn't affected ...


That's a short-term business view. It will catch up with them.

One business axiom is "Companies are either thriving or dying. There's no staying the same."

When thriving, there is continual product improvement. When dying, continual deterioration.

Take your pick ...


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## DJTrains (Oct 8, 2008)

In my opinion, "Lionel" is no longer, "Lionel." I believe the company most of us knew as children is no more. hwell:

Vintage REAL "Lionel" is all the rage!


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> When junk like this arrives at my door step it's promptly returned. Getting an RA, dealing with return shipping, etc, isn't worth the time. It's easier to return for full refund. My credit card now covers free return shipping on defective products, so I'm no longer paying for that. Makes it very easy decision.
> 
> I'm over dealing with the hassle when some executive isn't putting the pressure on the factory to stop this constant subpar crap they make.
> 
> ...


Could not agree with this more!

I wrote 8 years ago, after my first year in this hobby that I did not understand how or why anyone would or should accept sub-par products or multi-year delays. I was rounded bashed for not understanding that in this hobby it is expected that some things will be broken, nonfunctioning, and may need minor repairs when brand new. I said it then, and again now, total BS! 

There is no other products that anyone would put up with this nonsense from a manufacturer. Nothing. 

Collectively we must hold them to account, when it something is not 100% as described, doesn’t work perfectly, has the wrong paint colors, or has domes missing on landmark domed passenger cars, these must be sent back for full refunds. Not sent back for warranty repairs, or accepted, works right, looks right or no deal.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

DJTrains said:


> In my opinion, "Lionel" is no longer, "Lionel." I believe the company most of us knew as children is no more. hwell:
> 
> Vintage REAL "Lionel" is all the rage!


Yep, that company bit the dust many decades ago. Between corporate ownership ( General Mills ), private ownership ( Richard Kughn ), and numerous capital Investment ownerships, not to mention a couple bankruptcies thrown in for good measure, Ole Josh's company has long disappeared.

Bill


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Lots of complaints regarding Lionel on this forum. I tend to look at issues whether in my profession. community or forums as how do we move forward? What is a solution? 

This could go on for years, and has already. My 1st thought is WHO is in charge at Lionel? That's not a complaint sentence like we normally see in pop culture. I really mean - who do I write a letter to asking for answers? 

Just sending a letter to Lionel at an address listed in their catalog addressed PRESIDENT or such will reach no one, we know that. 

We know they as a company won't allow a representative to address these issues on forums. That's open ended. Even the best run corporations have critics that can never be satisfied. 

I remember the main posters here discussing a person at Lionel who is no longer there who was instrumental in addressing many issues. Can we get him on this forum to comment on what he knows? 

It just seems we are throwing darts at a board which is moving with our comments. I wish we could have a demonstrable impact on change rather than some wishy washy relationship with a company that seems a total mystery.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2018)

*"Can we get him on this forum to comment on what he knows?"* 

I seriously doubt it as this individual works for a company that is a sponsor for the other guys. They have a propensity to dislike any reference to the MTF. Actions like this support the out of sight, out of mind theory. Or better put, sweep it under the rug as nobody will notice it even though there is a huge lump. 

As you mention, letters probably won't mean much if anything. But a drop on sales or a lot of bad publicity is what will eventually get the attention of *OWNERS*. You mention that there are a lot of negative comments here about poor quality, but remember, we are the only place where frank and honest posts are allowed. So it is far from surprising that you will only read honest feedback here. Overall, that's a good thing for our hobby.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2018)

Bryan, To put your comments into perspective, a picture is worth 1,000 words:

View attachment 477414


The MTF Ice Cream Shop serves many flavors of ice cream. The other ice cream shop in town, based upon their advertisers demands, serves *ONLY* plain vanilla, take it or leave it. So business at the MTF Ice Cream Shop continues to grow.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"Can we get him on this forum to comment on what he knows?"*
> 
> I seriously doubt it as this individual works for a company that is a sponsor for the other guys. ....



Bingo!!! You have nailed it once again, Brian. The prevailing management philosophy over there is stale and tired -- often discouraging and even intimidating sponsors and members to be exclusive to their forum. The sad part is some sponsors don't even realize that THEY hold the power in terms of advertising dollars -- not that venue's management. In this particular case, that sponsor couldn't even be mentioned over there UNTIL they paid up and became a sponsor. I know, because I started several threads complementing that company on a recent product announcement or layout installation, and those threads were deleted because that company wasn't a paid sponsor at the time.  So much for a forum that bills itself as a place to "talk about anything trains".  

Bottom line... I could be wrong, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Lionel's former employee to chime in here on MTF, since he's the one who solidified the connection for his current employer to be a sponsor over there. Prior to that happening, they had no interest in being a sponsor over there. He'd most certainly be welcome here on MTF by all of US, but it wouldn't be viewed as "politically correct" by the powers-at-be over there. There's a well-known train dealer (Pat's Trains) who posts here as well as over there. And I'm so glad he does because that sends a signal he won't put up with the prevailing style of intimidation over there. Only wish more dealers and product vendors would think like Pat, because he really "gets it".

As Brian also mentioned in his post immediate in front of this one, I'm also glad to see "business" at the MTF Ice Cream Shop continues to grow. 

David


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2018)

Yup, *Pat's Trains* (Pat) deserves a big pat on the back and our business and loyalty. I called him when he first started to post here to congratulate him for being willing to stand out from the crowd. I recently placed an order with him, great service. 

Let's also not forget *Menard's*. They too take a smart approach knowing that our business is just as good as the others.

Cost these businesses nothing to participate here and why more don't show the smarts and courage to post on the MTF is unbelievable. The more positive exposure a business gets, the better for sales. But that makes sense, doesn't it. Hmmmm????????????????


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Yup, *Pat's Trains* (Pat) deserves a big pat on the back and our business and loyalty. I called him when he first started to post here to congratulate him for being willing to stand out from the crowd. I recently placed an order with him, great service.
> 
> ....


Absolutely Brian. Over on the Lionel UP1943 thread, I mentioned I had purchased the coordinating set of MTH Premier boxcars, and Pat's Trains is where I bought them. Also snagged a few of his "black bonnet" boxcars/cabooses. Placed the order one day, and they were at my doorstep the next day. For those interested, I think Pat still has a few more UP Spirit boxcar sets (or individual cars if you missed one). 

David


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## BikerDS (May 1, 2012)

Krieglok said:


> I had a similar issue with a Lionel legacy Alco S2 switcher. It was brand new and when I tried to run it on my test track, it moved hesitantly and stopped dead.
> 
> I discovered by accident , that if I pushed down on the engine when applying power, it worked. It turned out the wheels were "overly" blackened at the factory. They needed cleaning in order for the locomotive to operate properly.
> 
> ...


Which MTH traction tires did you replace the Lionel S-2 traction tires with?


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Sorry Forrest.

Again, the last 3 NIB TMCC locomotives from Lionel I've received over the past 4 months, made between 2001 - 2007 and obtained from Ebay and Trainz auctions, have all been superb runners with everything working right out of the box, everything intact, and nothing broken or missing.

This is the route I've taken, since I'm not necessarily a "must have the latest" kind of guy. There've been way too many stories like Forrest's on the forum. So to avoid disappointment and until Lionel improves (if ever), I'm sticking with it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BikerDS said:


> Which MTH traction tires did you replace the Lionel S-2 traction tires with?


Most likely DE-0000018 tires, that's the diesel tire used on most MTH diesels.

FWIW, I typically use MTH tires for almost any locomotive.


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## BikerDS (May 1, 2012)

Thank you very much - I'll give those a try. I really want my switcher to switch faultlessly.

David


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## Guest (May 1, 2019)

I have just read these eight pages on this post. At present I have ordered three Lionel E6 AA sets and they are to be inspected and tested. I make this request from the places that I do business with and they don't have a problem with doing this for me. When I receive them I will test run them again myself on a loop of FasTrack for my own peace of mind. If anything is broken off of a loco or rolling stock those parts are shipped to me very quickly at no cost whatsoever. Sometimes a part is taken off another piece they have in stock. Great customer service. I wish Lionel would look after the dealers in the same way. I feel for each and every one of you who has opened an orange box or a purple box and have been disappointed. A couple days after the latest York Meet I watched the video presentations by Lionel and MTH. To my dismay there was not one question regarding Quality Control to either company in the videos I watched unless they were asked off camera.

Regards,

Gary.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I dont really understand why these units are not tested and verified before costumer shipping.


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Panther said:


> I knew that Lionel Company was over rated. I have not had a single warrantee issue from any of my Marx trains in 60 years.
> 
> Dan


You know it! One could throw a Marx engine in a pond for a week, dry it off and it would run.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Yellowstone Special said:


> Sorry Forrest.
> 
> Again, the last 3 NIB TMCC locomotives from Lionel I've received over the past 4 months, made between 2001 - 2007 and obtained from Ebay and Trainz auctions, have all been superb runners with everything working right out of the box, everything intact, and nothing broken or missing.
> 
> T.


These were the best years for Lionel IMO. Other than Odyssey magnets they are solid. The new technology may offer more features but at a cost of reliability. The designs haven't changed that much so I assume its due to the sources of production.
Another advantage of TMCC engines vs Legacy is you can use 3rd party parts to repair. For Legacy its Lionel ($$$) or tear everything out and rebuild with TMCC or conventional.

Pete


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Aren't Lionel trains made in China these days?

That would explain a lot.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> These were the best years for Lionel IMO. Other than Odyssey magnets they are solid. The new technology may offer more features but at a cost of reliability. The designs haven't changed that much so I assume its due to the sources of production.
> Another advantage of TMCC engines vs Legacy is you can use 3rd party parts to repair. For Legacy its Lionel ($$$) or tear everything out and rebuild with TMCC or conventional.
> 
> Pete


I agree with most of what you said but the Legacy electronics yes you are stuck with Lionel repairing but for the most part the legacy electronics are bullet proof, IMO. It's the reports of the cannon motor failures and the smoke units now using plastic housings for the reservoirs. It's the cheapening of the product in those areas that concern me. Also the fact you can't get Lionel diesels with fixed pilots or Skid plates on the back of steamers, chains on the tender trucks. Things Lionel should really be adding.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Legacy RCMC's fail and they are expensive. I lost one in my Vision Hudson and know three friends that lost them in a new F3, two in Big Boys. Since most features now connect directly to the RCMC instead of the radio board, a smoke unit or shorted coupler or light may require the replacement of the RCMC instead of an R2LC or individual triac. Two other friends have their Vision Niagaras in for repairs right now. Not sure what their problems are yet.
It like the Can Bus found in new vehicles. A light out can be a major repair cost.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Legacy RCMC's fail and they are expensive. I lost one in my Vision Hudson and know three friends that lost them in a new F3, two in Big Boys. Since most features now connect directly to the RCMC instead of the radio board, a smoke unit or shorted coupler or light may require the replacement of the RCMC instead of an R2LC or individual triac. Two other friends have their Vision Niagaras in for repairs right now. Not sure what their problems are yet.
> It like the Can Bus found in new vehicles. A light out can be a major repair cost.
> 
> Pete


That's not good and news to me. Wouldn't want to send anything back right now with them moving service into the main building from across the street. Big time delays


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I ordered a Lionel Legacy out of the latest catalog because the road name was only available in the catalog as a Legacy. I run conventional, so I hope Legacy doesn't cause me any grief because I run a simpler system. So far, no issues with Lionel but my overall run time on my Fastrack is near 0. Hopefully, that changes this weekend.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Severn said:


> I dont really understand why these units are not tested and verified before costumer shipping.


50,000 Comedians out of work, and you're trying to be funny!


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> 50,000 Comedians out of work, and you're trying to be funny!


Wow, 50,000? Really John? I guess I hadn't realized it was that many.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Aren't Lionel trains made in China these days?
> 
> That would explain a lot.


Other than European trains, most model trains are made in China now, and most are excellent products.....

So your point is......?


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Ok, I knew someone would reply like that and GRJ I knew it would be you! But I don't kind get the "value add" here in the selling chain. I could imagine maybe if this was "factory direct" that there would be limited testing before delivery. In that scenario the factory probably samples production and just hopes for the best given failure rates below X. But most people are ordering from a dealer, and well -- what's the point of that if they don't provide something? For example, like testing of units before shipping to the final destination? I mean if it's just a pass the order along, and pass the boxes along to the final customer ... that doesn't seem like a whole lot to me at least. ???


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

I've had some crushing disappointments from Lionel. I do support them, though, if for no other reason they've the imaginative team that leaves the competition in the dust. I've been in contact with Dave at Lionel, and I gather that they're working on the challenges with Chinese factories. Only time will tell. I certainly hope they resolve issues asap as I have the bipolars and hudson on pre-order. 

By no means I am making excuses for Lionel, but many other products from China have suffered from horrendous QC in the last few years. I am not sure if it was always like this or that more and more goods are being made there.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Truth is I don't have much of a stick in this game, being a used only buyer pretty much at this point. But, it does seem that Lionel, as a business that contracts out the building is going to get disappointment from time to time in terms of correctness of product as they have specified it. And they are or appear to be not prepared to eat it when that happens, and instead pass it on to the customer. And all this is exacerbated by the supply chain being across an ocean in a foreign land. I mean if I was a chinese factory I would certainly try hard to meet the order but if I discovered I'd put all the doors on backwards on the little vent above the cockpit of this toy train engine, would I tell anyone before I boxed it all up and shipped it off for full payment? Uh, no... 

Anyway, I guess the upshot is this is probably just never really going to be solved in near time frame at the very least.

Theories abound -- bringing work closer to home might help. I've thought for awhile that latin america would be a rather nice place to make things. It's closer and the labor is very cheap. Except of course they don't have density of suppliers the chinese have carefully built up. It could be done but they appear to have little interest or know how to do that. 

So, this also is not happening anytime soon at least either which means its likely asia asia asia for he foreseeable future which means all the same problems will always be rear their head from time to time.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Maybe Lionel needs to send someone to the factory from time to time to do some QC....Rapido does that, and the stuff they put out is pretty accurate.....


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

_I was just watching a TM video on the remake of the scale Hudson. In the video they said that the finished product must climb a grade ( 3% I think ) in less than 5 seconds. So back then they ran every engine. I wonder of they still do that ? That would have eliminated the problem Forest had...._


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Old_Hobo said:


> Maybe Lionel needs to send someone to the factory from time to time to do some QC....Rapido does that, and the stuff they put out is pretty accurate.....


The factories that Lionel uses do NOT allow customers to visit the factories! I was pretty amazed when that was revealed a couple years ago talking to the folks at the Lionel booth at York.


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## Guest (May 2, 2019)

It looks like everything Lionel made was tested back in the post-war period.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

My E6’s are rolling now, as detailed on my new City of Portland thread.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

obviously the chinese contractors just don't give a dam at some level. but why should they? they know you can't come after them and there's plenty of work. they don't need your order.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

Just yesterday, I received a letter from Howard Hitchcock, CEO of Lionel, in reply to a letter I mailed to him c/o Lionel a couple of months ago regarding the dismal quality of my Lionel Heavyweight cars that I received over the past Christmas season. I won't go into the details of the cars' myriad problems, suffice it to say it was a fiasco. Fortunately, my dealer (Charles Ro) handled most of it professionally.

My letter was polite and to the point with no emotions or rants, mostly just facts and figures of my own experience. He said that Lionel is working diligently to deliver quality products. 

FWIW: One opinion that I've always maintained since getting back in the hobby in '98, and I believe this is as true today as it was back then, is that the toy train industry may never know the true rates of product defects for the simple reason that a certain percentage of modelers never open nor give their new trains a thorough break-in. I don't know what that % is, I'd speculate for O-gauge it's around 25-35%. The point of this is academic but important. For example, if a line of trains has a true defect rate of 20% and say 30% of the trains are never tested that means the manufacturer will only see about 14 returns, or a 20% defect rate. That is actually a huge difference in terms of justification of allocating resources and implementing preventative measures to improve QC.

We can propose that the Asians inspect the trains and that importers do the same, and they should be doing this. But, if the company officials (and their investors) never see the true defect rate then their cost/benefit analysis will be skewed in favor of doing nothing or maintaining status quo. That's unfortunate but business. So, the hobby is kind of in a Catch-22 situation.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

That's what I like to hear, sent a letter to Lionel, you were polite and respectful and you received a response.

No matter what the the defect rate is, don't you think it's so amplified in today's instant digital media? One bad engine and it's on every forum. Every problem out there times twenty. A companies reputation can really take a hit and fast. So even if said importer doesn't see every defective product return to the service center, the masses know about it and sales are more than likely going to take a hit. Maybe


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## BikerDS (May 1, 2012)

Thank you for the help - changing out the traction tires from the stock Lionel to the MTH seems to have done the trick. I just operated for a hour through the areas which gave me the derailing problems (point to point switches set to thrown) and had no problem, testing at various speeds.

You are the first person on this forum to give me some help, and I appreciate it.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

I resurrected this thread because someone was interested in my letter to Lionel's Howard Hitchcock earlier this year about my experience with poor QC on recent purchases. I had not created a separate thread about it because I felt that would've not been appropriate, so I only responded to this thread. If interested, my summary is on page 10.

As to Gary's point on instant media attention, that is a good point...am not sure how it plays in the toy train world. There's a good number of people who don't follow the media frenzy, so I am not sure.


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