# New BNSF Freight set / Locomotive runs very intermittently



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

My local dealer had one of the MTH BNSF freight sets left, and I really like that BNSF SD70ACE locomotive, so I bought the set. I have also all but decided to go with the MTH DCS system. At least I had until I set up this train and tried to run it.

This set is Proto Sound 3, and I am using the ready to run set receiver and brick. I am also running it on an oval of Lionel Fast Track, as that is what I plan to use for my layout.

There a coupe of issues that I want to address, and to see if anyone here has had any experience like this.

1) I have to say that the communication between the remote and the receiver seems to be sluggish at best. Or maybe it is the loco getting signals from the track that is sluggish. Every thing seems to work, just not all the time, and not right away. Sometimes it is gaining speed, and when I hit the (-) bar, it just keeps gaining speed and I have to pull the plug out of the receiver. Sounds and couplers work, bot only some of the time as well.

2) The loco runs fairly will but at certain points on the track it will slow down then lurch forward. If it is going slower it will just stop, but if going at a faster speed it seems to lurch through what ever drop out is happening. At certain times it will do this at other points in the track as well.

Now, to test the track, I got out my Lionel Grand Central Express FT loco and hooked it up with its transformer, using the same leads from the track that I hooked into the MTH receiver leads, and it runs as smooth as silk all around the very same oval, even at a slow speed, so I know that there is at least an issue with the BNSF getting signal from the track and not the track being intermittent. I have a Lion Chief Penn Flyer that I will try as well, but have not had the time yet.

Any ideas what might be going on?
One thing that I found odd is that the directions instructed me to lub the pickup roller axles, which I did, against my better judgement, and when I discussed this with the dealer he said that he is not a fan of doing that. I took a tissue and some alcohol and tried to clean is as best as I could, twice, but with no improvement. He has asked bring in the loco, receiver, and remote so that he can try to trouble shoot the issue, and I am confident that he will take care of me one way or another, but I just wanted to bring it up here for any thoughts that any of you might have.

Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The communication between the IR remote and receiver is tricky on those starter sets, it's the nature of the beast. You're using a remote control system that sells on the street for around $30-35, and it has performance to match the price. 

The symptoms you are experiencing suggest you have an issue getting power to the locomotive. If you were losing the DCS signal to the locomotive, it would keep running at the previous speed. Slowing down suggests a loss of power to the logic.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The communication between the IR remote and receiver is tricky on those starter sets, it's the nature of the beast. You're using a remote control system that sells on the street for around $30-35, and it has performance to match the price.
> 
> The symptoms you are experiencing suggest you have an issue getting power to the locomotive. If you were losing the DCS signal to the locomotive, it would keep running at the previous speed. Slowing down suggests a loss of power to the logic.


Interesting that it happens at 2 specific spots in the track every time, and one other spot once in a while.

This is a New Lionel Standard FasTrack Starter Set Oval with the power section in on the near side (I will call it the Bottom or 6:00) of the oval, in the left position of the two straights. The two consistent drop out spots are at 9:00 and 10:00, while the once in a while drop out spot is around the other side at 4:00, all of which are in the curves.

Even stranger still is that I had the power section at the far side (Top) of the oval, in the left position of the two straights, and then, for easier access, I moved it to the other side (bottom) of the oval, where it is now, and all of the drop outs remained in exactly the same spots, even after moving the track around while switching out the power section.

This indicates to me that it is loosing communication with the track at those points.

Again, neither my Lion Chief nor transformer Locos display any hesitation of any kind in any of those spots, or at any other spots on the same track, even at slower speeds. I have switched out all three locos several times, with the same results throughout.
______________

Now: Regarding the nature of the starter set remote system:
Are you saying that the real DCS system would be more robust and work better?


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Try swapping out the tracks that give you problems with tracks from elsewhere on the layout. If the problem follows the track, then you know the track is the problem. If the problem remains in the same physical location, then that is another problem.

Larry


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

TrainLarry said:


> Try swapping out the tracks that give you problems with tracks from elsewhere on the layout. If the problem follows the track, then you know the track is the problem. If the problem remains in the same physical location, then that is another problem.
> 
> Larry


I misunderstood your response. I will try what you suggested, and see. First, though, I will clean those areas, because they may have picked up some oil from when I lubbed the pickup rollers. That seems to be the only way that this loco could have issues there when the others don't, in that it is picking up all signals from the track, and may be more sensitive, and the starter set equipment, I am told, is quite cheap, and maybe not as robust at getting the signal through the possible contamination. If that does not help, I will put a couple of known clean pieces of track in there place.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

I think that I have a pretty good idea of the problem.
I have noticed that the pick up rollers on the MTH loco has a much shorter leg, and much less travel than those on Lionel locos, and that is what I believe to be, at least a part of, the problem.

This morning, I thoroughly cleaned the track with lint free cloth and rubbing alcohol, but I didn't hold out great hope of any improvement, as the other two trains have no issues at all at any point on this track, even at very slow speeds.
Just as I suspected, there was no improvement whatsoever.

I than got down to where I could see the pick up rollers, and while they seemed to be touching the track, when I, very slowly, picked up one end, and then the other end, of the locomotive, those rollers came right up off the track with no downward pivoting at all.

I now believe that there is just not enough downward travel of those rollers to insure good solid contact at all points along the track, and that the center rail is dipping downward in these spots just enough to loose contact.

I will be taking it into the dealer a little later and see what he thinks, but I do have a lot of data to give him so that, hopefully, he can get to the issue quickly.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Remake your layout with the MTH track from the set and see if your problem goes away or not.

Larry


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd also carefully look at how level the track is. My carpet central has a number of spots that can be trouble, however I know about it and expect it. It also helps me test repairs under trying conditions!


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Problem solved.

It was just as I had suspected, with he pick-up rollers being set to high.
My dealer took it back into his shop, removed the pick-ups, modified them to where they now contact the track a good 1/8 inch before the truck wheels. I also made a new power connector with the cord and plug off an old power brick and some banana clips, that I can plug into my Lion Chief terminal section, and easily switch between the MTH receiver and the CW80 by simply plugging unplugging the banana clips.

This BNSF runs smooth as silk around the entire track, even at a slow, slow, crawl. I love it when I can figure out the problem. It gives me a lot more confidence with the equipment, and you guys helped me to think it all through. I sincerely thank you for that.

All he had to do was look at it and see that that was the problem, and then go fix it. We didn't have to do any trouble shooting at the shop at all.
*More time to talk about trains.....Oh Yeaaahhhhhhhhh..........*

Even though it is fixed, I still consider that pick-up roller design to be questionable, as it has so little travel. A longer arm, like the Lionels, would make all the difference, and it would be so much more forgiving.
Now, I am not pushing Lionel over MTH or vice versa. That longer arm is just a much better design.

Thanks again,
Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, Lionel has some designs with very little roller travel, they're prone to the same issue.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> FWIW, Lionel has some designs with very little roller travel, they're prone to the same issue.


Understood.
I have not seen all the locos, only a few, and I should not have insinuated that one was better designed than the other across the board.

I stand corrected.
Thanks
Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No correction necessary, I was just pointing out that the problem is not unique. I actually see it more on Lionel stuff than MTH if the truth be known.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Soo, John,

Does your screen name give any indication what you are hauling on your trains?
Just Sayin...............LOL

Roger


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, heavy munitions, you know like BB-Guns, potato cannons, Nerf rifles, etc..


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, heavy munitions, you know like BB-Guns, potato cannons, Nerf rifles, etc..


Got it.
You would definitely want to keep those under wraps.

BTW my stepson gave me a BB gun with a scope on it for shooing Starlings and Grackles that take over out bird feeders, and at short range it is very accurate.
Never knew they put scopes on BB guns.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

herkulese said:


> Got it.
> You would definitely want to keep those under wraps.
> 
> BTW my stepson gave me a BB gun with a scope on it for shooing Starlings and Grackles that take over out bird feeders, and at short range it is very accurate.
> Never knew they put scopes on BB guns.


Instead of BB's, I would recommend pellets instead. Today's BB guns are not like what I had.:smokin:

Here is one, there are more.................http://www.walmart.com/c/kp/bb-rifles
(I picked Walmart's, because of the listing)

Daisy Model 880 BB Carbine Air Rifle with Scope, features a 4 X 15 rifle scope that offers excellent precision. The rifle can shoot with BBs as well as pellets with a velocity of about 800 ft/s. The multi-pump pneumatic action further increases its performance.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

big ed said:


> Instead of BB's, I would recommend pellets instead. Today's BB guns are not like what I had.:smokin:
> 
> Here is one, there are more.................http://www.walmart.com/c/kp/bb-rifles
> (I picked Walmart's, because of the listing)
> ...


I believe that this is the very gun that I have. It shoots BB's and pellets, and it came from Wally World. I shoot mostly BB's because pellets would tear up my bird feeders and fence. I use it to shoot Starlings and Black Birds and the occasional squirrel that hank around my back yard bird feeders.


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## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

herkulese said:


> I believe that this is the very gun that I have. It shoots BB's and pellets, and it came from Wally World. I shoot mostly BB's because pellets would tear up my bird feeders and fence. I use it to shoot Starlings and Black Birds and the occasional squirrel that hank around my back yard bird feeders.


Now that I read a little closer, I see that yours is a Daisy. Mine is another brand, and I can't remember the name.


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