# Lionel Oops storm continues...



## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Just posted somewhere else:

Sad, bad news. I got my Mogul back today. Lionel did not send it back to China, stating they received it after the window for repair in China had closed. The NC technician tried to improve the performance, but could not. Earlier this year (May), when I was following this forum, Lionel did not want us to send them. I checked the forum a few more times after that and there were more posts about parts not working, in other words Lionel still not ready. When did the initial call to send them in go out? All I can see now is a last call by Dave Olson 08/27. I missed it by one or two months, so I'm denied a repair for something that took Lionel 10 months to recognize and resolve. I registered my Mogul on the Lionel web site for warranty very early on. Lionel should have contacted all owners that had registered their Mogul. Lionel contacted dealers, but not owners!

The black eye keeps getting bigger. I would tremendously PO'd if that was me.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2018)

It's ironic that Lionel and/or the Factory in China are being sticklers for the Return Deadline Date yet they continue to convey a very dubious commitment to product Delivery Dates. 

The Lionel management team is badly in need of a Train Enthusiast, a Public Relations Officer and a Wake Up Call!

Emile


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## DeltaPapa (Dec 19, 2016)

If the product is defective and the manufacturer cannot repair it, you may have some recourse if you purchased it via bank credit card. Many cards extend the warranty one year beyond the manufacturers warranty.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Guys, I'm not sure what to say about Lionel anymore. Just when you try and give them a break on something, they go and make another careless move. This stuff is not rocket science, but I guess the old saying still applies, "You just can't fix stupid." Where does ANYBODY with half a brain in customer service send back a product with a known defect and say, "Sorry, we tried." That's a real slap in the face. The proper thing would have been to simply refund the purchase. But that's not how this crew thinks.

Sadly, I'm afraid this trend will not be reversed with the current management in place. These guys are more suited to run a company that manufacturers toothpicks -- not model trains. 

There were more different stories surrounding the Mogul, it's not even funny anymore. First we heard parts to fix the problem were being shipped Stateside, and that would take care of everything. Well it didn't. Then we heard a team of factory workers from China was coming over to the States after factories completed production of 2018 products committed for delivery this year. Then that story changed yet again, and the problem Moguls were gonna be shipped back to China. Clearly more signs that the top brass really don't know what they're doing from one day to the next.

So hang in there and observe from the sidelines. That seems most prudent for now. 

On the other hand... for those with dollars to spend, the poor quality control issues might cause more folks to limit their purchases to buying in-person from a local shop where products can be checked and tested before we take them home. The big dealers cannot be happy with Lionel at this point either, because it's a tremendous drain on their productivity and profitability as well when they have to deal with this BS.

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Lionel's management decisions has finally hit the sewer. Poor excuse for customer service.

Bill


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I would be curious if any registered owners were actually notified by Lionel to send tham back? If you had one and it was marginal you might not consider a return if you didn't know there is a widespread problem.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

The motion of delaying the returns - (basically telling customers to warehouse the defective products for them) - and waiting for some cue or window to open - will bite them in the ***.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I always wondered why Lionel only listed the recall on that other forum and not contact everyone who registered their engine. Then Lionel was miffed when they didn’t get many responses/returned engines. Totally cluesless in NC or just don’t care.

Also I had one inside source stating to me the engines went to korea instead of China but the official word is they went to China so who knows.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

I feel sorry for those that are left unable to get them corrected. I don't fault Ryan or Dave as they are mere workers employed by lionel management and wellspring partners these are the 2 that are at fault but that is an unlikely outcome. 


as to other place I see that getting deleted before to long and that says loads as to whom there loyalty goes to.

most on this forum agree with me time to stop ordering anything from lionel or at bare minimum wait to see in a hobby shop and check it out prior to purchasing said item. but then hobby shops one day might be like train depots an empty building and have you ever been able to view or handle an online purchase to see if all is well prior to purchase food for thought?

lastly the bigger question once the repaired units are back into owners hands are they truly fixed? and an extended 1 year warranty should also be included for any issues that would just be good customer service.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

The length of these threads on the other forum is quite surprising. The PE thread has been up for six days. Maybe someone is on vacation but, if not, there appears to be a change in policy.

The QC problem appears to be ready to explode. Lionel needs to get ahead of this immediately. They don’t appear to have a clue with much of this. Little things can kill you. First thing to do is offer a refund... immediately. Then you can talk about, “If you want it repaired.”


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I haven't been on the other forum for awhile, I need to check it out. If OGR isn't deleting bad things about Lionel that is a mega shift in procedures over there. Maybe even they realize it is so bad that it hurts their credibility to continue to ignore it? Or could they have decided they are doing Lionel a favor by letting them get a wake-up call?

Art


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

well the thread is still out there. It is hard to image that Lionel has dropped this far in such a short amount of time. This may well be a subject for future marketing classes based on how it turns out for them. "How to ruin an iconic brand in several steps." 

If Lionel wasn't so near and dear to my model railroad heart, it would be fun to commiserate about this. Instead it is a very sad day for our hobby to see the founder of the 3-rail hobby disintegrate right in front of us. 

You can't make this stuff up. Fact can be stranger than fiction and this is a good example of it.

Art


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2018)

This fits perfectly: *And the beat goes on!!!!!!*


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I just posted the following message on the other forum as a test to see how long it stays up. Any bets?

"I can only hope that someone at Lionel is listening to their customers venting about their problems. There have been far too many quality issues surface of late for them to ignore in my opinion. Lionel is an iconic brand that everyone that I know wishes well. We are all loyal Lionel customers that have had our faith and trust in them shaken to the core by recent events.

This forum while paid for and supported by Lionel and other manufacturers needs the honest feedback from their customers. It should be one of the most valuable assets that they receive for their advertising dollars spent here. We praise them when they get it right, but they should want to know when they don't.

With that assumption, I believe Lionel needs to address these issues."

Art


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Chugman said:


> "...
> 
> This forum while paid for and supported by Lionel and other manufacturers needs the honest feedback from their customers. It should be one of the most valuable assets that they receive for their advertising dollars spent here. We praise them when they get it right, but they should want to know when they don't.
> 
> ...


My other hobby is building loudspeakers. The "Tech Talk" forum is solely hosted and managed by Parts Express, a top US seller of parts for the hobby.

Over there, you can post all issues with their product without fear of reprisal. We analyze the death out of their products and don;t pull punches with issues. And they read the posts. When a product's design is substandard, you'll see a revised product in due time.

And their customer service is top notch. A one-off issue with a received product - they'll ship a replacement, same day, based on your phone call.

No company is perfect. But 1 out of 10 posts on that forum lauds the company's Customer First actions.

About the only forum rule is not to post direct links to competing products - a pretty reasonable request.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Boy, that sucks. Spending that kind of money for a product and then being told to shove it is totally unacceptable. I am still waiting for my Mogul to be returned by Lionel. If I didn't monitor the other forum, I wouldn't know when to send it in at all. I don't know what options you have except, maybe, small claims court. With that attitude from a supplier, I don't see why anyone would buy their produce ever again.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2018)

I think Mogul owners have to be insistent and demand their money back or a replacement engine that runs as it should. Lionel should never send back a defective locomotive and say, "Sorry, we can't fix it. We got your money, too bad for you, ha ha!"


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> On the other hand... for those with dollars to spend, the poor quality control issues might cause more folks to limit their purchases to buying in-person from a local shop where products can be checked and tested before we take them home.


Even that isn't foolproof! I tested the H10 for 15-20 minutes at Henning's before I boxed it up and took it home. All the ugly stuff was inside or hidden, and I didn't notice the one obvious flaw, the big gap on the tender door until I got it home. It wasn't until I opened it that the extent of the issues became obvious!


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

superwarp1 said:


> I always wondered why Lionel only listed the recall on that other forum and not contact everyone who registered their engine. Then Lionel was miffed when they didn’t get many responses/returned engines. Totally cluesless in NC or just don’t care.
> 
> Also I had one inside source stating to me the engines went to korea instead of China but the official word is they went to China so who knows.


This would be a problem for me since I do not visit "that other forum".


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## mike77406 (Feb 7, 2016)

I am surprised that no one has contacted the Consumer Protection Agency or the BBB yet in regards to this matter.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The fact that the warranty registration means nothing to them makes me scratch my head!


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## Lionelmaster55 (Dec 22, 2018)

John:

I recollect another recent thread on OGR that concerned Lionel’s warranty registration process. The poster indicated he had tried multiple times to register his purchase and was unable to do so. Someone responded that Lionel was no longer using the website warranty registration process and relied solely on a copy of the receipt to determine if product was still under warranty.

Given how half assed everything else appears to be with that company right now; this would not surprise me.

Curt


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Do you think it might be wise for the effected Lionel customers to unite and consider a class action suit against the big “L” before they file for bankruptcy.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, I don’t play one on TV and the opinions stated above are mine and mine alone.

I really feel sorry for all members on both forums that are getting screwed. NO customer deserves that treatment.


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## Lionelmaster55 (Dec 22, 2018)

Jim; that same thought had occurred to me.

Curt


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I'll be curious to see if Lionel issues any kind of statement when everyone returns from the Holidays.

We know enough folks have seen and read the thread over there. Deletion gets harder every minute and the results of it would not bode well for that sideshow either.

I feel for those that spent their dollars and are living with this mess. I always thought our hobbies were to bring us joy not headaches.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

I noticed Charlie Ro has the Lionel 2016 B&M Legacy Mogul (SKU 6-84069) listed on their website as "in stock". Charlie is a very stand-up guy, so I'd like to think it's one of the ones that has received "the fix".

More importantly, I wonder if there is ANY kind of indicator / label inside the locomotive that would indicate that the locomotive is a "good one" and not just left-over old stock that wasn't updated?

David


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

All those who are having repair problems with Lionel should first contact Dean Brasseur, Director of Repair for Lionel. E-mail him directly. I have found Dean to be wonderful, supportive, and very customer friendly. Initial Lionel quality may be terrible, but Dean is wonderful !!! Nothing but great things to say about him. Don't complain here first, contact Dean. e-mail: [email protected]


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Why do some think Lionel will soon file for bankruptcy?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Scrapiron Scher said:


> All those who are having repair problems with Lionel should first contact Dean Brasseur, Director of Repair for Lionel. E-mail him directly. I have found Dean to be wonderful, supportive, and very customer friendly. Initial Lionel quality may be terrible, but Dean is wonderful !!! Nothing but great things to say about him. Don't complain here first, contact Dean. e-mail: [email protected]


Better do it fast, Dean is leaving Lionel as well!  Let's see, Jon Z. and Mike Reagan have gone, Dean and Rudy are leaving, that kinda' depletes the talent pool over there! It's not a good sign when all those high profile people are jumping ship!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I knew Dean was leaving, didn't know the Rudi was leaving as well.
Your right, no one left.
On a related note, a friend gave me his Legacy E6 4-4-2 to repair. Broken eccentric and a bunch of missing sleeves and spacers. All parts were listed as NLA at Lionel along with traction tires.
I had to fabricate replacements to get it going again.
Many thought electronic failures would make these engines shelf queens, now it looks like lack of mechanical parts will shorten their lives even sooner.

Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm not buying any more Lionel, period.

Still haven't decided what to do with this Lionel coffee mug I have - it is my favorite.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Lee Willis said:


> Still haven't decided what to do with this Lionel coffee mug I have - it is my favorite.


So is mine!!


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

WOW sorry for what happened to you JEFF. I just sent back my VL Niagara, I hope that they can fix this. Oh well Like BRIAN stated "THE BEAT GOES ON"!!!!!!!!


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I worked at Eastman Kodak for close to 36 years, and was involved heavily with quality.When a complaint came in, it was called a "KPIR". The dept was shutdown, and a team meeting was held.. Kodak's policy was to answer the complaint, find out why the error occurred, and report back to the customer within 24 hours, offering a exchange and/or refund..All the suspect product would be recalled.. We inspected 1 or 2 spools of film for every 100 made. Some machines ran 40 spm, some 35 spm, and some 25 spm..Multiply that by 10-14 machines, and you're busy, looking for approx 30-35 defects PER ROLL of film.My last Lionel product I bought was a 18001 Rock Island Northern. Biggest POS I've owned, and when I contacted Lionel, they told me they knew of the problems with this particular and they wouldn't fix it. $110 bucks later I had a running engine, plus the cost of the unit.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I think it’s clear the current management team at Lionel doesn’t know what they are doing, they need to be replaced.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Lee Willis said:


> I'm not buying any more Lionel, period.
> 
> Still haven't decided what to do with this Lionel coffee mug I have - it is my favorite.


Mail it to CEO.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

laz57 said:


> WOW sorry for what happened to you JEFF. I just sent back my VL Niagara, I hope that they can fix this. Oh well Like BRIAN stated "THE BEAT GOES ON"!!!!!!!!


It did *NOT* happen to me! I just cut and pasted from somewhere else to say everyone searching...


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Craignor said:


> I think it’s clear the current management team at Lionel doesn’t know what they are doing, they need to be replaced.


Oh, I think they know what they are doing.

I think that they just don't understand it won't work.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2018)

Lee, keep the mug and enjoy it while you remember the great company Lionel used to be.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

It was mentioned a few months ago that Guggenheim Capitol Management sold the Lionel Portfolio to someone within the management firm. Don't know if true or not, but it could be the reason of folks leaving. Also could be his mandate to cut costs to save a sinking ship.

Bill


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Like many companies today the return on investment is key. Accounting runs many companies these days and some just do it a bit better than what we currently see in NC. 

As one who grew up with nothing but Lionel and even into my adulthood it's sad to see the shape it's in today. One Mogul not getting repaired and look at all the bad PR they are getting. I can't imagine them not going out of their way to get every Mogul properly repaired and restoring some faith in the brand. 

I also find it strange that they have currently chosen Ryan and Dave to be the "face" of the company. Now I don't know either of these gentlemen, spoke to Ryan a few minutes at Trainfest, but they both come off as a bit clownish for me. I'm not a five year old and not so easily amused. Speaking of five year olds. How many under the age of 30 or so even recognize the name Lionel?

It looks like Mike Reagan's departure was just a cue of things to come. I'm not angry at this but truly saddened to see what appears to be what was once such an iconic brands demise.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2018)

I have met Ryan on several occasions and he appears to be a nice guy. The problems at Lionel appear to be much bigger than one or two individuals.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Whatever's happening, it's not good!


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> I have met Ryan on several occasions and he appears to be a nice guy. The problems at Lionel appear to be much bigger than one or two individuals.


I would agree with you on both statements, Brian. I have talked with Ryan several times at York, and he's always been very professional and answered my many questions as best as he could.

From my own personal experience, there's nothing wrong with light-hearted personalities. In fact, they can bring relief into otherwise drab or difficult discussions. However, the real key is to come across with knowledgeable authority when one is asked to be a company spokesperson. Corny is OK, but it MUST be secondary to being the overarching authority figure. And that hasn't always come through on some of the most recent "Ryan and Dave" videos. That was clearly Mike R's strength.

We always knew Mike was gonna leave big shoes to fill. Some folks like Mike are quite natural at being a company spokesperson. For others, it can be very challenging. And I give Ryan lots of credit for stepping up to the plate. It's also great to see people grow in new positions -- especially if they take on something that's not particularly in their "comfort zone". That's part of what I enjoyed about managing people -- watching them grow successfully. But sometimes, a manager needs to step in and provide LEADERSHIP. And this is where Lionel's upper management has been sorely lacking.

Jack Welch of GE fame couldn't have said it better in this video clip. Take a listen... and you'll see what I'm talking about. THIS is the kind of stuff that's missing in Lionel's executive suite these days...






That's why I stated in another thread the other day, that Lionel's executive suite strikes me as the type who would be more adept at managing a company building toothpicks than they are at managing a model train company. They're simply in way over their heads -- whether it's because they're cow-towing to corporate bean-counters who control ALL the purse-strings. Or because they just lack the skills to navigate Lionel through this chapter of the brand's history. Instead of building a great team of people to lead Lionel through these challenges, all we hear about are key people leaving: Mike R, Jon Z, Dean B -- and now I've picked up on Rudy (Mr. Legacy Railsounds) possibly moving on. None of these players leaving is good -- but when ALL of them are leaving, it's an absolute disaster. And if upper management can't fix this problem, then THEY ARE THE PROBLEM. No way around it. I hate being so harsh, but these comments are long overdue. The real question is, "Who's listening???"

Grant it... over on the other forum, traffic volume is admittedly much larger than here.  And when I glance over there from time to time, I can't recall a time when so many threads in the "recent posts" column were Lionel complaints. And if I didn't know better, I'd say the forum moderators over there have either taken a complete vacation during Christmas OR they know Lionel isn't gonna be a sponsor there anymore... so they don't care about these threads as much as they did earlier in the year. If neither of those scenarios are accurate (and they might not be), then they're just tired of hitting the delete key so many times this year -- as unlikely as that may sound. Look.... I'm happy to see these threads stay up there, because nobody is making this stuff up. Like earlier this year, the user experiences are helpful so other people can make informed buying decisions. As far as I'm concerned, what's happening now completely re-affirms the kind of reporting I and a few other folks did earlier this year over there. We got reprimanded for it and treated like crap, but I could care less. I knew they were wrong regardless of whether they owned the site or not. They were arrogant and disrespectful toward folks who made their forum valuable enough for them to now make money by selling sponsor ads. The important thing now is *SO MANY more people encountered quality issues in recent weeks with end-of-year deliveries, and the volume of complaints has reached such a critical mass* that even short-sighted and heavy-handed moderation can't shut down those candid comments without the moderators looking like blatant fools.

David


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

One comment regarding the Mogul thread staying put. IMHO it's gotten too big to delete. Many have read it, commented and such.

It would completely pit them in an awkward position to delete it at this point. But stranger things have happened!


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2018)

During the time that I served as a management consultant, my first mission upon arrival at the client's business was to access their financial well-being. The Balance Sheet and Profit & Loss Statements summed it up fairly quickly. 

Returns, reworks and other associated costs have a way of negatively impacting a businesses' financial condition. The more of this that is present, the bigger the impact. When ownership gets a wake up call from a poor financial position reflected in their financial statements, typically *changes are made*, so long as it is not too late.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> During the time that I served as a management consultant, my first mission upon arrival at the client's business was to access their financial well-being. The Balance Sheet and Profit & Loss Statements summed it up fairly quickly.
> 
> Returns, reworks and other associated costs have a way of negatively impacting a businesses' financial condition. The more of this that is present, the bigger the impact. When ownership gets a wake up call from a poor financial position reflected in their financial statements, typically *changes are made*, so long as it is not too late.


I to was a management consultant. Two points from that experience:

(1) It cost 10 times to fix an error for each step in the process is traverses - 1x cost caught in the design phase, 10x in mfg.'ing, 100x in the field.
(2) A company must listen with its ears, not its mouth.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

seayakbill said:


> It was mentioned a few months ago that Guggenheim Capitol Management sold the Lionel Portfolio to someone within the management firm. Don't know if true or not, but it could be the reason of folks leaving. Also could be his mandate to cut costs to save a sinking ship.
> 
> Bill


That sinking ship is already on the bottom.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

All I know is I still don’t have my mogul back from China or Korea or Timbuktu. Fixed or otherwise


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

flyernut said:


> That sinking ship is already on the bottom.


I was thinking the same. Many members here said they won't buy site unseen (or at all). How long before dealers won't order product for fear of constant returns and surplus stock?

This may be healthy for all. It's obvious post baby boomers have less exposure/interest in the hobby. This may allow the remaining manufacturers to maintain comparable sales in a shrinking market to continue to deliver quality product.

It's the Lionel name that's disturbing for many, me included.

But such is the way of the world. Sears ruled retail for 100 years and is in bankruptcy. AT&T is now only a name, very little to do with the company that ruled telecom for 100 years (Craig McCaw built a huge wireless company. AT&T bought it the name was slapped on that in the late 90's. Sold to Cingular wireless, it's no longer an "AT&T" company.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

It's going to be interesting to watch this story unfold. I for one hope this is the bottom and the ship rises.

The clattering is getting as loud as any time I can remember in the hobby. I can only hope the ears are listening.

Lastly, not that I'm expecting one, but this would be a good time for Lionel to issue some type of statement. I'm not holding my breathe.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jeff T said:


> One comment regarding the Mogul thread staying put. IMHO it's gotten too big to delete. Many have read it, commented and such.
> 
> It would completely pit them in an awkward position to delete it at this point. But stranger things have happened!


Closing it is far more likely, that's been done before.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

As much as OGR would like think they are the center of the O gauge universe, they are not, they are a small sliver. I go to the TCA conventions, I see very very Forumites, and I ask people if they look at the OGR Forum, they are like OG,what?

Few people know of these troubles, many will never open up there trains boxes, few even have layouts.

So the Lionel $hitstorm might be in a very small pond.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You're right Craig, I lost count of all the NIB stuff I've bought that's a number of years old. I always marvel that someone spend the retail bucks and never even opened the box.  I marvel, but then I smile, I get a great deal.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Closing it is far more likely _{then deleting it}_, that's been done before.


Machiavelli would disagree on two points.

The first: "_The ... ruler must determine all the injuries that he will need to inflict. He must inflict them once and for all_."

And the second: "_... one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot _..."

Translation: Delete it now for a one-time PR hit rather than an ongoing debacle. Future readers wil get the gist of the issue and make their buy/no buy decisions.

Sorry, it's post Christmas and the Lionel stuff is depressing ...


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You're right Craig, I lost count of all the NIB stuff I've bought that's a number of years old. I always marvel that someone spend the retail bucks and never even opened the box.  I marvel, but then I smile, I get a great deal.


Ooh, I like being right!:appl::appl::appl:


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Craignor said:


> As much as OGR would like think they are the center of the O gauge universe, they are not, they are a small sliver. I go to the TCA conventions, I see very very Forumites, and I ask people if they look at the OGR Forum, they are like OG,what?
> 
> Few people know of these troubles, many will never open up there trains boxes, few even have layouts.
> 
> So the Lionel $hitstorm might be in a very small pond.


Maybe a small pond, but interesting discussion! At least here it's a discussion.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

As if we really needed to hear about yet another Lionel faux pas as we close out 2018... I was reading a Facebook thread over in Harry Henning's O-Gauge Tips & Tricks group about the H10 Coal Hauler Premium Set that's being delivered to stores as we speak.

The set seems really nice. Price is "decent" -- but nothing to write home about, and certainly not bargain-priced though. The H10, however, is an excellent price/performer for the dollars spent on a Legacy steamer these days. And when you add in 3 GLA style hoppers, a boxcar, and a caboose, you have a really nice set -- even one that comes in a decorated box.

The catch, unfortunately, is Lionel's factory used the wrong paint color for the rolling stock. I haven't seen the set in-person yet. However, early reports show the color has much more of an orange tint to it than similar GLA Pennsy 2-bay hoppers in the M1A Coal Hauler set produced a couple of years ago and the many add-ons released in subsequent catalogs. So these latest cars don't exactly match.

Word on the street is Lionel "discovered" the wrong paint color AFTER the sets were shipped to the States. Now what's THAT all about? I guess the QA team that Lionel CEO Howard Hitchcock claims is there to keep an eye on such matters must have been out for a long lunch that day. Or perhaps that QA team just doesn't exist at all? Yeah... that sounds more like it, given the number of Lionel screw-ups -- especially in recent weeks (although 2018 in general wasn't exactly a banner year for Lionel quality). 

If all that is wrong with this nice set is the color of the rolling stock, I suppose we can look the other way on that. And given the popularity of the H10 itself, I'm sure these sets will sell out anyway. Charlie Ro was sold-out before the sets even arrived at the store last week. However, it's yet another example of a Lionel BTO item that's been produced DIFFERENTLY than catalog'd. 

How many more of these screw-ups need to happen, before folks really begin hesitating to pre-order?  I know I'll be excited like many an enthusiast to see what's coming out in the next catalog. But quite honestly, I'll just wait to see what Lionel actually delivers before I jump at anything. Translate that to imply: I sure hope Lionel dealers order "extra's", 'cause I ain't pre-ordering nothin' anymore. 

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Once again, in the internet age there is zero excuse for the wrong paint color. The factory paints a test panel, takes a photo and sends it to Lionel. This assumes Lionel has already sent them paint samples to compare against and that can be photographed with the new model to eliminate color discrepancies in cameras and monitors.

Pete


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> How many more of these screw-ups need to happen, before folks really begin hesitating to pre-order?  I know I'll be excited like many an enthusiast to see what's coming out in the next catalog. But quite honestly, I'll just wait to see what Lionel actually delivers before I jump at anything. Translate that to imply: I sure hope Lionel dealers order "extra's", 'cause I ain't pre-ordering nothin' anymore.
> 
> David


It doesn't take any more for me to say no pre-orders for me. They say only a fool keeps doing the same thing hoping for different results.

Art


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I wish that I could buy the H10 set but that is not possible and I really hope this does not lead to the death of Lionel. I don't have not bought any new locos for sometime so have not had the bad experiences that so many posters here have had.

I do think if all of these complaints were registered with the company, both Lionel and the holding company, by written mail, not e-mail or some electronic thing, maybe someone would get the idea that buyers are not happy.
Of course they may not care and want to destroy the company.
I wonder how many written comlaints they have received?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Word on the street is Lionel "discovered" the wrong paint color AFTER the sets were shipped to the States. Now what's THAT all about? I guess the QA team that Lionel CEO Howard Hitchcock claims is there to keep an eye on such matters must have been out for a long lunch that day. Or perhaps that QA team just doesn't exist at all? Yeah... that sounds more like it, given the number of Lionel screw-ups -- especially in recent weeks (although 2018 in general wasn't exactly a banner year for Lionel quality).


That makes sense due to the fact that it's been fairly widely reported that their new factory doesn't allow on-site inspections. I was even told personally that the F40PH was the first locomotive at the new factory and there was no on-site inspection allowed. So, even if they discovered it in China, they already have the product, what are they going to do with it? Ship it, of course!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> As if we really needed to hear about yet another Lionel faux pas as we close out 2018... I was reading a Facebook thread over in Harry Henning's O-Gauge Tips & Tricks group about the H10 Coal Hauler Premium Set that's being delivered to stores as we speak.
> 
> The set seems really nice. Price is "decent" -- but nothing to write home about, and certainly not bargain-priced though. The H10, however, is an excellent price/performer for the dollars spent on a Legacy steamer these days. And when you add in 3 GLA style hoppers, a boxcar, and a caboose, you have a really nice set -- even one that comes in a decorated box.
> 
> ...


Beyond the quality problems, Lionel just is not impressive lately. This Coal Hopper set is a perfect example. 

I have the H-10 - not the set but I did buy the H-10. I had no issues with the loco - it was good out of the box and remains good. 
Except, as I said in a brief reviewa few weeks ago, it is far from the most detailed steamer I have, and at the price I paid, ought to be nicely detailed, with lots of separately applied parts . . . $700 , and it's not bad, but its nothing special.

The Lionel coal hauler premium set's price is $350 more than the loco alone ($1100 to $750 list prices). That $350 gets the buyer three coal hoppers and a boxcar and caboose - $70 a pop. Not really a bargain. 

By contrast I always buy the MTH sets when I want the loco, because they are such great bargains. Right now at Pat's Trains I can get either the T-1 or the FEF alone for $1100 (outstanding locos) or a set with five additional cars and a caboose for $1249. That is six cars for $150. THAT is a bargain. 

I guess the point I am leading up to is that this coal hopper set - Lionel's H-10 with five additional cars for $350 more, seems to be about the best Lionel will do for us now - an okay locomotive packaged at a reasonable price with five good rolling stock cars at roughly list price - three of them with a tiny if forgivable oversight in paint color. 

Meanwhile, MTH seems to just about hit it out of the park with ever new product - I'll review an absolutely stunning new one tomorrow. 

It is quality worries that makes me so leery of buying Lionel any more, but beyond that, what may be more damning for them in the long run, is that otherwise, their prices make my think "why bother? I;ll get more with MTh or Atlas, or even from 3rd Rail, sometimes."


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2018)

Lee, will you buy any more LionChief Plus locomotives? The ones I've bought have been good right out of the box, even two that were new this year, the Berkshire and the GP-38 so I'm willing to buy another if they make something I'm interested in.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

What impresses me is that this thread went to 7 pages in 2 1/2 days. 

I tried to read all comments but they are all too familiar. Because I buy new items and buy without regard to cost, I am NOT buying Lionel anymore and I am a bit worried about the new items that I have purchased - like the $699 Great Northern Hustle Muscle - that have virtually no run time. 

Both of my 2018 orders submitted at the LHS are MTH, and it will remain that way at least for locomotives and passenger cars.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Beyond the quality problems, Lionel just is not impressive lately. This Coal Hopper set is a perfect example.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


Lee, you are absolutely correct. MTH's approach with sets is at the opposite end of the spectrum from Lionel's approach. If you like a locomotive and MTH offers the loco WITH cars in a set, then they make it difficult to NOT go the route of purchasing the set.

OTOH, Lionel's approach is to make enthusiasts pay for every single item they can in every way possible -- often playing the mind-game with buyers that pieces of rolling stock included in the sets are "more valuable" than run-of-the-house rolling stock in the catalog. So once again, Lionel is expecting folks to pay premium prices for EVERYTHING rather than giving them a break if they purchase more items in a single transaction.

Needless to say, I prefer MTH's philosophy pertaining to set pricing -- if for no other reason than to send the bozos running Lionel a message that they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Lionel "brand" that many of us remember from our childhood days. They just happen to be minding the store right now while they prepare it for the next owner.  

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

On another forum in regards to Lionel quality concerns there is a poster that stated over the past 3 years he has purchased over $200,000 worth of product from Lionel and has returned over 50 items for repairs. He was very frustrated with his latest purchase from Lionel.

Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Country Joe said:


> Lee, will you buy any more LionChief Plus locomotives? The ones I've bought have been good right out of the box, even two that were new this year, the Berkshire and the GP-38 so I'm willing to buy another if they make something I'm interested in.


Yes . . . or no. It is up to Lione,l and it is not a quality issue, but depends on whether they make more 1:48 scale LC+ locos.

Initially, all LC+ locos were traditional size - good locos in many cases, but not scale size and dimensions. I liked them but I prefer scale locos. I even built scale bodies for some of my steamers, replacing the stock body.

As far as I know, Lionel made only three 1:48 scale LC+ locos: the A5 and the Camelback steamers, and the SD60M. 

The SD60M was a watershed as far as was concerned - a model loco with a scale body also offered in Legacy (for more money) - I liked the idea of Lionel offering LC+ versions of locos like it and the Camelback as a sort of "Legacy-no-hassles" offering. I would have bought more. But the SD60 in only one listed in one catalog offering and is not longer listed on Lionel's website. Neither is the Camelback. 

I still don't trust Lionel completely on the reliability of two-motor, four-axle diesels - ultimately nine of thirteen I had had fatal problems (although I think maybe they have solved the problem by now - I sure hope so). But the NW-1 (single motor diesel), SD60M (two-motor, six-axles), and all the steamers I have have proven super-reliable. If they offered LC+ scale locos, even at $100 more than most LC+ locos cost, I'd be buying many - very likely. I'd take the chance.

I think Lionel madea conscious decision to back away from offering scale LC+ locos because it might cut into sales of Legacy locos. That's it's decision, as is mine to buy no more right now.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

seayakbill said:


> On another forum in regards to Lionel quality concerns there is a poster that stated over the past 3 years he has purchased over $200,000 worth of product from Lionel and has returned over 50 items for repairs. He was very frustrated with his latest purchase from Lionel.
> 
> Bill



And he continues to buy and complain.

Does that seem just a bit odd? It seems like paying to be beaten and going back for more???


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

I've been reading this thread and thinking quite a bit. Does this kind of unreliability extend into Lionel's lower priced offerings? 

I ask because we do Lionel (conventional) at Christmas time. I've got my Son's 2011 Scout, an MPC Amtrak set and various rolling stock from Lionel, Menards, etc. I'm thinking next year of looking for a freight diesel for him next year. Possibly something like this:
https://www.trainworld.com/manufact...3716-bnsf-rs-3-scout-freight-set-w-bluetooth/
He likes BNSF and though it's a fantasy combination, I know he'd enjoy it.
$200 is alot for us to spend on a train item (not even sure if I'll be able to swing that when the time comes) and I can't just eat the cost if it turns out to be unrepairable junk.

Would I be better off hunting down something used and older that will be easy to repair if necessary, and probably cost quite a bit less?


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

Most of the folks who continue to buy from Lionel are just like me. I am addicted to buying trains. It's not a good feeling and not particularly bad. I just love the trains. Time after time I rationalize, "Well maybe Lionel will have learned." "Well, I just have to have this item because it has so many cool features." "Well, Lionel will fix it so even if it has to take a ride, I'll throw the dice." "I know the Lionel people and they have been nice to me."

Time after time I have done this. I have a bunch of locos and cars that still need to be fixed and they are lovely shelf queens to look at. Should I have complained so much and pissed off so many people? No, of course not. I have to change, too. I have to admit that most of the problem is me.

As long as I feed the dragon, why should I be surprised I get singed? My train buying and layout building time is coming to an end anyway. Now I have heart issues, I'm turning 70, and I have to begin the last quarter of life. I don't want to live it continually buying and crabbing about my trains. Screw that. I'm going to turn over a new leaf. I have done that with my diet. It will not kill me. Continuing to eat burgers or spend so much money on Lionel will kill me. Even the slow and stupid, like me, learn after a while.

Doing scenery and running trains with friends is much more fun anyway.

Hey, did you see that Lionel Vision Line CC-2 on Ebay? Great price !!

Still banned in Carmel
Scrapiron Scher


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2019)

Eliif, you live in the Chicago area. Go to *America's Best Train Shop* in Itasca. Have him test what you buy and Tony will take good care of you. He also has a huge inventory to select from.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Thanks for that.
America's best is a good suggestion. I go there for HO stuff occasionally. I don't find the kind of train-show bargain prices I usually look for, but it's a good place to pay ebay prices without shipping and be able to inspect/try before buying.

I pretty much have to pass it on the way to the inlaws place so I'll stop in and take a closer look at their O-Gauge locos.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2019)

Lee Willis said:


> Yes . . . or no. It is up to Lione,l and it is not a quality issue, but depends on whether they make more 1:48 scale LC+ locos.
> 
> Initially, all LC+ locos were traditional size - good locos in many cases, but not scale size and dimensions. I liked them but I prefer scale locos. I even built scale bodies for some of my steamers, replacing the stock body.
> 
> ...


I remember the troubles you had with the two motor LC+ diesels. I bought the GP-38 hoping that Lionel has found and fixed whatever was the problem. I am running it a lot so if there is a problem maybe it will occur in the warranty period and I can have Lionel fix it.

This year's catalogue will tell us a lot about Lionel's plans for LC+. Hopefully, what it tells us will be good news rather than that Lionel has fumbled the ball on a great product line. I am looking forward to some great all new LC+ locomotives but I'm prepared to be disappointed. Since I run traditional/Post War size trains LC+ is right in my wheelhouse.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2019)

Eilif, introduce yourself to Tony as a new REGULAR customer. I shopped there for years and he always took care of me with excellent pricing. Tell him that I sent you.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

rogruth said:


> I do think if all of these complaints were registered with the company, both Lionel and the holding company, by written mail, not e-mail or some electronic thing, maybe someone would get the idea that buyers are not happy.
> Of course they may not care and want to destroy the company.
> I wonder how many written comlaints they have received?


They know and don’t care because people keep buying their crap they ship. 

They read forums, FB, emails, and written messages but have done nothing to change the situation at the heart of the problem. Instead, they post threads on how the hobbyists should fix it themselves. That’s screwed up IMO.

It’s no different in person. At two train shows in two years I talked to Lionel about this exact issue. I was very polite and respectful to the high ranking L executive. Result-no follow up. Year two with different L executive was the same result. Now I just return for refund, no need for me to follow up either.

Want to get their attention? Quit buying their crap. I did.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Scrapiron Scher said:


> Hey, did you see that Lionel Vision Line CC-2 on Ebay? Great price !!


In that case, you're probably sick that I bought the CC2 on OGR for $850! Runs like a top, everything works. The one on eBay went for $1,339.68, and curiously there was only one bid.


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Lionel will be at the WGH show today and tomorrow in Schaumberg so you will have your chance to visit with them. It would be interesting to see what their comments are. I'm not going, but Jeff and Jim said that they were. It is inconceivable to me that they do not know about all the talk on the forums, but it would still be interesting to hear their version.

I have read on the other forum the comments from some of my friends as they defend Lionel. I must admit that there are two sides to every story and the side that defends Lionel has been mostly silent. It is so easy to get caught up in the lynch mob atmosphere and I have to plead guilty. I have not had any personal problems with them, but joined in with the rock throwers. The one story of the guy that has the problem with his Mogul received an awful lot of attention, but it has a funny ring to it. Something doesn't seem right about all that, I don't think we have heard the whole story. And we ALWAYS hear about the problems and usually not the good things. Plus we are such a small part of the total picture that we are most likely not statistically relevant. 

Just my two cents worth, let the stoning begin.

Art


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Chugman said:


> ....
> 
> I have read on the other forum the comments from some of my friends as they defend Lionel. I must admit that there are two sides to every story and the side that defends Lionel has been mostly silent. It is so easy to get caught up in the lynch mob atmosphere and I have to plead guilty. I have not had any personal problems with them, but joined in with the rock throwers. The one story of the guy that has the problem with his Mogul received an awful lot of attention, but it has a funny ring to it. Something doesn't seem right about all that, I don't think we have heard the whole story. And we ALWAYS hear about the problems and usually not the good things. Plus we are such a small part of the total picture that we are most likely not statistically relevant.
> 
> ....


Art, by and large, the irony of the Lionel fanboys "over there" is they have selective memories. And I'll be real blunt about that. They only hear what they wanna here, and then they create false narratives.

In the recent Lionel 2019 Catalog thread over there, I don't doubt for a NY minute that one of the snide comments was directed at me, re: a guy who no longer posts here but was always "complaining" about Lionel, blah, blah, blah. And that's the same song Herr Melvin sang to me when he booted me off his forum. Yet he obviously missed -- or chose to ignore -- the GREAT review I gave Lionel's new Legacy StationSounds dining car just prior to having a less-than-stellar experience with a new batch of Lionel 21" passengers cars earlier in 2018. So I always try to give the good with the bad. And folks shouldn't shoot the messenger if the bad outweighs the good sometime... or as seems to be the case recently, more often. That's the supplier's fault -- not the buyer's fault. Then again, I also just gave Lionel a great first-impression with my Great Northern F3's and the recent Spirit of the Union Pacific #1943 SD70ACe. BTW, the 1943 twin-brother, #9026 just arrived from METCA, so I'll be unpacking that today. These two SD70ACe's should look sweet together -- even though they didn't exist that way in the prototype. 

My point being, even when we do offer well-rounded, OBJECTIVE, reviews that both complement and critique... some folks choose to only remember the bad, and label us accordingly. When we're outspoken about these issues, we get labeled by the fanboys as "complainers" _whenever_ we say something they don't like. It just comes with the turf, but that's their problem -- not ours. I'm so over that phenomenon, but I also won't hesitate to call them out on it either.

I like the crew we have here at MTF -- as well as the forum management style, where folks can speak freely (with respect and reason) -- calling things out for what they really are -- and not be disrespected or "labeled" unfairly. That's the way it should be.

David


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> In that case, you're probably sick that I bought the CC2 on OGR for $850! Runs like a top, everything works. The one on eBay went for $1,339.68, and curiously there was only one bid.


Wow!! But it's worth it. The V CC2 is one of the all-time great locos Lionel made. 

It makes me feel good about mine. I paid something like $900 for mine five or more years ago used - in fact, "abused" is more like it. It was in good condition except for one major problem: the previous owner had put something - I never found out what - on the traction tires that made them swell and harden. It road like it had square wheels. I had to run it upside down in place, using an X-acto #1 blade(s) and slowly cut like a lathe machining metal, the hardened traction tires off the wheels and out of the groves. Took forever. I never installed new tires - the thing has all the traction it needs without them.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Lee,
I have a cheaper Lionel K4 that has traction tires that just will not stay on. I replaced them and also a pro replace them. The wheels seem to have grooves that make it noisy but it runs OK. I would appreciate any comments from anyone. TIA.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When the traction tires go on mine, it won't get new ones! Putting traction tires on that or the Lionel Scale Cab Forward is a real PITA, you have to remove almost everything in the running gear to get them on! 

I was kinda' floored when I saw the ad for $850 for mine, and I jumped on it. I expected a basket case, or at least some significant issues. It actually is clean as a whistle and fully functional, hard to complain about the deal. I've had multiple offers to buy it for hundreds more, I don't think they made a lot of them.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When the traction tires go on mine, it won't get new ones! Putting traction tires on that or the Lionel Scale Cab Forward is a real PITA, you have to remove almost everything in the running gear to get them on!
> 
> I was kinda' floored when I saw the ad for $850 for mine, and I jumped on it. I expected a basket case, or at least some significant issues. It actually is clean as a whistle and fully functional, hard to complain about the deal. I've had multiple offers to buy it for hundreds more, I don't think they made a lot of them.


They certain are in demand. If Lionel were smart it would run off another run of them soon: sure to sell.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think with the current crew, redoing all the electronics and the like for the new system might be a challenge. The CC2 uses the older modular electronics, not the RCMC that's in the new stuff.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2019)

*"I like the crew we have here at MTF -- as well as the forum management style, where folks can speak freely (with respect and reason) -- calling things out for what they really are -- and not be disrespected or "labeled" unfairly. That's the way it should be."
*

You nailed it, David. 

I have been a long time Lionel fan going back to the time I received my first Lionel. But what is going on now is very sad. There is a big difference between throwing stones and telling it as it is. Junk deserve reviews that call it junk. Not some glossed over comments that try to hide the truth. How does that serve anyone.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> In that case, you're probably sick that I bought the CC2 on OGR for $850! Runs like a top, everything works. The one on eBay went for $1,339.68, and curiously there was only one bid.


I recently bought two CC2s and paid $1500 for the pair. One is perfectly new and the other has a few miles on it but is in excellent shape. They seemed to suddenly appear in numbers...

Tom


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's a REALLY good deal, I'd have done that one!


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

I plan on keeping the new one and selling the used one. When I get it cleaned up a bit(smoke residue), I will sell it here at MTF...

Tom


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They'd be cool double-headed, maybe I'll buy it.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I’ll be interested to know whether Lionel’s people said anything of note at the WGH show in Chicagoland but it’s only morbid curiosity as I can’t imagine the company getting back on course on the QC front without a lot of effort that seems highly unlikely to be on their agenda.

Fortunately this thread has gone off in a different direction thanks to Mr Scrappy Scher’s intevention. (I don’t have one of the VL steamers he mentions but I thought there was some issue about them being underpowered? Not a problem I have had with my little fleet I am happy to say.)

Over on the other place, the thread on the latest batch of substandard passenger cars has been nuked and another one on navel-gazing about trends in the O gauge sector has added absolutely nothing new to the debate.

On the whole, I think I’d rather learn more about traction tires than what may be in the next Lionel catalog!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Both Ryan and Dave will be at the Amherst show later this month. Really hoping I’ll have the mogul by then. I’m sick of asking and I’m sure the both of them are sick of answering. It’s sad corporate has put them in this position.

I’m sure the @#$& storm higher ups have created by cost cutting, as made the rank and file down in the dumps, low morale


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I am surprised no one has noticed the issue of the mold lines on the Lionel steamers.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/die-casting-mold-lines-in-recent-steam-locomotive-models

This is definitely the last straw for me. Its much easier for me to correct mechanical and electrical issues but cosmetic issues are a new level of time consuming difficulty. Correcting these means the engine has to be repainted.

In two cases Lionel has released the same engine earlier without these lines. 

Here is an example from the latest 4-4-2.










Pete


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

*And the beat goes on. Problem is, it is getting louder and louder.
*

View attachment 479702


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

Pete, that is totally unacceptable. I just looked at my LC+ steam engines and none of them have the mold line. Even my Berkshire, which is current production doesn't have it. If they can clean up the mold line on mid price steamers there is no excuse for not cleaning the mold line off a high end engine.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> I am surprised no one has noticed the issue of the mold lines on the Lionel steamers.
> ....


Pete, if I recall correctly, this was also observed on VisionLine GG-1's last year... or was it already two years ago???  I was lucky with mine, but I remember some folks being understandably livid -- especially since there was no evidence whatsoever of these mold lines on the earlier JLC GG-1's.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Not only is Lionchief free of mold lines so are the pre war diecast and post war die cast. 

Pete


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

If I look very closely at my LC+ Mikado and LC+ Pacific, I can see a mold line. But that's not a fair comparison. I bought both of those on sale for less than $300. I'd return that Legacy steamer in a heartbeat.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

The mold line is totally unacceptable, even if we were taking about an entry level loco.









I will continue to stay out of the Lionel pool until quality improves.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

It darn near appears we are watching the demise of a once iconic company. Sad...


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Jeff T said:


> It darn near appears we are watching the demise of a once iconic company. Sad...


Actually that iconic company died when General Mills purchased them way back when. Since then numerous ownerships and bankruptcies have been associated with Lionel Electric Trains.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The products they're producing now are apparently coming from the new factory where there are no on-site inspections allowed. That just invites slipshod work as we're seeing now.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The products they're producing now are apparently coming from the new factory where there are no on-site inspections allowed. That just invites slipshod work as we're seeing now.


Which should pretty much raise the "buy beware" flag for EVERYTHING that we purchase... whether it's a $1,500+ VisionLine locomotive, a $125+ passenger car, or even a $40 boxcar. Shoddy factory work has become the norm. 

This is NOT the time to buy something and store it away for that great layout you're planning to build during your retirement years. Play with the trains NOW.

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

If you don't need the latest Lionel features and sound there are a ton of older trains out there that not only look better but are in many cases better built. Last week a TMCC PRR H10 was offered for 175 bucks. This with Odyssey Cruise. Upgrade the one chuff smoke unit for under 150 bucks and you are still less than half off the street price of the new H 10. Many similar examples.
3rd Rail and MTH are making incremental improvements while Lionel is not only sliding downhill, they have fallen off a cliff.

Pete


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

Another thread on that other Forum with brand new SD45's coming out of the boxes stillborn. That rattling sound you are hearing may not be just the new locomotives, it might be a death rattle. My prediction: Lionel is sold, merged or goes Chapter 11 by January 2020. Now, I hear a rumor Warren Buffet is interested. I do not believe that. Mr. Buffet is much too intelligent to let his heart guide his brain.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's certainly not getting any better as they move into the new year!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Lionel needs to come out with a statement. The silence is hurting them just as bad as the defective products. Just when you think it couldn't get any worse, it does. This is unreal.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Boy, does this thread make me feel better and better all the time! Being new to O, I jumped right in and preordered 4 engines from Lionel last year. Now I just sit here dreading the day they are delivered. What a mess.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

There's a reason I have never pre-ordered. Previously run works fine for me!!


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## Scrapiron Scher (Dec 20, 2018)

> Now I just sit here dreading the day they are delivered. What a mess.


They don't HAVE to be delivered, but if they come in DOA, get a return tag from your dealer.
My dealer knows to check the operation. I no longer accept broken locos without a commitment to get a free return. The dealer accepts this arrangement or I do not order.
Scrappy


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Okay. I have my dukes up! Speaking of that, I was thinking that this quality issue will probably get worse if for no other reason than people like me are going to be examining these things with a jeweler's loupe when they come in.


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## DJones (Oct 19, 2015)

beachhead2 said:


> Boy, does this thread make me feel better and better all the time! Being new to O, I jumped right in and preordered 4 engines from Lionel last year. Now I just sit here dreading the day they are delivered. What a mess.


Your posting is exactly the reason I find so many of the postings regarding quality issues objectionable! It seems the first thing folks like to do once someone post a question or concern with a recently delivered product is rehash the problems they have had with a supplier. Some the stories are reposted for or five times and added to each new thread.
I can see where someone like yourself would question even getting into the hobby. And that is sad!

I have been involved in O trains for 43 years as a adult and another 19 years prior to that as a child and young adult with too little time or money to spend on trains. I really love the new detail, controls and sounds that are available today. I have had pretty good luck with new purchases but every once in a while you may be disappointed.

As examples, several months ago, I received the NS Theater car and was so upset with the color. So, I returned it to the dealer. It cost me a $30 restocking fee but at least I was not out $300.

I received five new Lionel engine this year and am having problems with my H10. Lionel has paid for the returns shipping so I am a little inconvenienced but no extra costs. Having this great little engine with all it features is pretty exciting for me.

I would hope that you at least give the engines a chance before you regret your purchases. You might just be pleasantly surprised. Also remember, if out of the box, you do not like what you see, you should be able to return it to your dealer or if something needs to be repaired, it can be taken care of.

I see so much negativity on this and the other forum about a hobby that has and continues to bring me such joy. I just do not understand it! Whenever I run trains and look at all the marvelous details and listen to the unbelievable sounds, every care in the world seems to just disappear and I am in my 'HAPPY PLACE".

I hope you will enjoy the hobby as much as I have and still do.

Happy railroading,
Don


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

DJones said:


> I hope you will enjoy the hobby as much as I have and still do.


Thank you very much, Don. So far so good! I have a few MTH and Lionel LC+ engines and they've worked great so far. I placed a few Lionel preorders last year. When I get those engines in, I will really look them over and give them a workout. The most expensive engine I have preordered is obviously the most worrisome: USRA Light Mountain steam engine. But if that baby isn't 100% out of the box, I'm going to turn it right around for a refund. No messing around. It's a bummer to see what Lionel is going through. I hope their starter sets are more robust. The masses who buy those won't give them a second chance if their set is DOA. But modern Lionel won't discourage _me_ from O. It's the best.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, as I said months ago, I just put mine in the spare-parts bin and moved on. I didn't expect them to do the right thing.


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## PDDMI (Oct 25, 2015)

Thanks for changing/editing the Title...Just sayin...


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2019)

Please read the Silver Lining thread, Don. I hope it make you feel a little better. 

I believe most of us on the MTF to our best to report the good as well as the not so good.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Seemed like a good idea!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Jeff T said:


> Seemed like a good idea!


I liked it the way it was. Straight and to the point. But my Grandmother always told me, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" Good advise hard to live by in these times.:goofball:


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