# general Idea layout questions



## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

New guy here.... I am talking Never had a train new guy..... I am very inventive and love creating stuff...... I have am idea and just wanted input... I am thinking of running a HO scale train thru my office.... I want it to have several levels and maybe run thru a couple walls but the main feature would be in an office area for customer to view...... I have fish tanks, turtles, so I was thinking of having actual water running thru the layout... having lakes for the turtles and waterfalls from mountains... and so on..... Now the question for you guys.. is... has this been done? is this to much for a beginner? ..... I would be the one building it so I know it will take some time....... are there any sites or people who you can suggest that I can talk to or e-mail in reference to what I would like to accomplish? If you have not already seen this... go to youtube and search for quickcope..... you can see all my stuff.. this is so you can get a feel for the type of person you are dealing with.... 

Thanks and I look forward to any responses...... Chuck (cope)


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Cope said:


> has this been done? is this to much for a beginner? .....


running around room in multi level, with actual water at places, i pretty sure somebody had done that. 
to much for a beginner? maybe, most probably to much. but then again, there is a beginner and there is a beginner. 

suggestion for you is break the entire project into smaller tasks first. estimate your room for project, make a rough plan, make a bench/shelf for a section, do any terrain forming in the preffered way and painting, lay track , start on next section, not specifically in this order.

in general it is really impossible to answer "how do i go about this layout thingie?" question. the proper answer can fit a book or 2.

instead i'd recommend something like this:
"ok, i've seen layouts A, B, C, D (with links and pictures hopefully). i have such and such room allocated. i'd like to implement feature X from layout A and feature Y from layout B ... however i'm limited to certain space and feature Z from layout C needs to be somehow compressed. here is how i see it. i read about shelf-work/bench-work construction and going to use this [approach] over this one since i have easy access to this specific material. however with that i'm concerned about [list of concerns ]input is welcome" and so on.

on the output you will get much more meaningful replys such as "how about you use this material instead. this way it is [some factor]..." or "your plan has IMHO boring/hard to operate/hard to reach/to short/[whatever else] section right here. consider this [solution] instead."
then will have a discussion  for now i simply have no information to give coherent answer to you.

good luck and start asking questions


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Last I heard, water and electricity don't mix. But, not withstanding, the problem would be splashing, evaporation, and leaking. Water has a way of finding the smallest of escape routes. And the wayward turtle.....? An obvious deterrent and a prime cause for derailments. I can picture a Bell's Hingeback traversing a layout. That would get ugly.

I tried "live" water a couple of times. Always a problem, if for no other reason than evaporation. Pumps go dry and burn up. I'd advise against it.

Bob


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

*1*

I agree with most of your points here..... the water issue... I am pretty sure I can make that happen due to the fact that the water would be pumped from a sump and flow right back to the sump..... I may even have it spilling out of a fish tank...... the turtles would be in a walled tank as to not get free.... 
on the waterfall... I imagine an area where a bridge would connect two mountains and water spilling in the background and under the bridge... not roaring water .. just a simple stream..... 

thank you for the responses so far..... all valid points.... 

maybe I should draw up a mock up and post it so you guys can picture what I am thinking.... give me some time.... thank you..


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

*drawing*

OK, is this possible? here is a drawing of what I was thinking.... turtle bay will be 36-48 inches wide..... that back wall is 9 feet and the left extension can come out 6 feet.. can you see where it goes over turtle bay? that is the 2nd level and it graduates down that 6' wall waterfall will be enclosed into a circle type volcano mountain... just enought opening in front to see it.... this way the splash factor is reduced.... the turtle tank will be 10" deep but only stick out of the table 4" turtle can not get out... I have not place buildings in this drawing so you can see how it will go under the top layer..... 

and just maybe I can run it around the fish tank in a loop..... not sure how much radius I need.. (might not be possible...) 
and see the holes in the wall... well that goes into the bathroom.... but I am thinking to make it continue out into the Lobby.. thur the bathroom.. (enclosed in plexiglass) and into the waiting room....... 

so is this a crazy idea? or is it possible.....


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

OK, let's break some bad news.
A.) Trains will have a hard time climbing a grade much over 2%
B.) How will you reach any derailments further back than 24"-30"? You'll need some mighty long arms.
C.) I have a 210g tank, which is deeper, front to back, than a 140g, Trains will not be able to negotiate the turn. You will need at least a 16" radius, and preferably something closer to the 20"-24" range, depending upon the loco and the type of cars on the layout.
D.) While the plan has some merit, I think a "do-over" is probably your best bet. Keep the hobbies separate.

To keep your spirits up, I once saw a custom acrylic tank that had a "tube" that a fella ran a train "though" the aquarium. Kinda neat, but he had problems later on with leakage. Then he had the tank "blow out" at the point/seam where the tube went through. Big mess. I would think that the cost of a custom aquarium would be prohibitive.

I run my G-scale(outdoor) train over a couple of ponds, waterfalls, and streams. But, that is somewhat different than what you are planning.

Bob


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

*right track*

here is a layout of the area I wish to use.... I have incorportated 24" radi ....As I stated before... I have ZERO knowledge on this subject.... not sure if this is actually how you plan out the track. I want 2-3 layers if possible.... I want INTEREST and a long track.... tunnels.. and so on... Is there a downloadable program I can get....?

If someone has the time & interest to mock this up.. I would be most appreciative...... but do not go to any extra trouble to go out of your way... Thank You Chuck.... 

I may start a mock up build in my warehouse first to see what issues I will have.... and then if no issues, move the mock up into place in the room... 

I'm just gonna have fun with it.....

OH... I am not going for an authentic Houston, Chicago, or well known train station layout..... I will not be using it to mimic a loading station... I just want a train to follow a track and people look at it and say.... Hey that is cool....


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

thats a good start. the drawing it is
24 is very generous curve but i'm afraid we talking radius while you thought diameter. that curve as drawn is actually R12 which is not existent in HO scale. if you thinking smaller scale N it is fine . thats another decision that you need to make - scale. 
personally i would think HO if not bigger but it is your call. 

how are you going to run it? just turn it on and let it make loops or do you want to switch and haul cars from industry to industry? you said multi level, i assume you want those connected right?

for initial planning i use anyrail ( thats www.anyrail.com ). i don't think my limited use justifies purchase of full version so i work on smaller sections so to stay within trial limitation on pieces.

EDIT.
i would not hesitate about actual water on layout had i had a need/want for it. with careful planning (that covers disaster scenarios as well),proper materials and general awareness i'm sure its doable. i mean take a look at wunderland MRR link that was posted recently. they have entire seas with ships going.


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

Good info... Yep.. I was thinking HO and I must have misunderstood the guy at the store.. who told me how to figure the radius.... I am basing my info on what I have seen... I see small HO setups on 3'x5' benches and they have curves and bends.... this is the part I like.. the figuring out...... so if I understand correctly... that curve is too sharp...


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

you can have R15 curves (the bare minimum) and squeeze into 30" board but then you limited to only very short locomotives and cars and you are right on the edge. any stray turtle and your train is going to meet with the floor. i'd try to stay at least with R18. bu then reach is quite a problem as you will need more then 36" board. to solve you can try to "dog bone" it a bit, see attached.

all other questions still stand so i can answer no further


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

Tankist: I really appreciate your responding..... this is the stuff I need to know... I am the kind of person who will knock out a wall to get 3"... so to speak.... but I do not want to do that if possible..... I may just change rooms.. I have 10 offices here at the shop... I may need to re-figure my layout.... I could use the warehouse, but it is hot and no one could see it unless I took them on a tour... really wanting this to be viewer friendly... just to run on a loop.... any knid of extra track would be for show only.... it would just run all day long... thank you again...


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

take a read at this : http://www.chipengelmann.com/trains/Beginner/BeginnersGuide01.html

written by member of one of the other model train forums.


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

I can wholly empathize and understand your passion for combining your two hobbies. Adding "live" water is a huge project. I have been in the hobby for 50 years, I've tried it on a couple of occasions. One time it didn't work and was a disaster, the second time was a bit more of a success. Even then, it was not without its problems.

My critiques, though negative, are only to prevent you from becoming disenchanted. The foreseeable problems far outweigh the benefits and hopeful outcome. The reality is that water and trains, and electicity, are not the best of friends. 

My layout has been 12 years in its evolution. It is large by most standards. We are even going to build a separate building for it. It, quite literally, takes up the whole basement, save 12x20 area for the fish room. 

You will notice that I said evolution. I am constantly build new modules, rebuilding and remodeling others. Tweaking, if you will. What started out as a 10x16 L-shaped layout in a spare bedroom, now covers over 1200 square feet, and takes up even more room. The 1200 SF is just tables, though I rarely set up all of the module, nor would I even if I had the space.

Your plan, and dream, is truly ambitious. Not for a beginner or even an intermediate modeler. It may take years to accomplish the end product. Research alone may take the better part of a year, or more. And, surely, the cost will be in the thousands. And add in the "human" factors of lack of patience and loss of interest, you may never realize the dream. The process is going to be a slow one. Slower than any of your turtles. You will see spurts of progress, and then see, what may seem like, digression. Been there all too many times. And, too, sometimes life just gets in the way. You will need the patience of Job to see this to the end. And maybe the lifespan of Methuselah.

Planning and engineering alone are going to be colossal undertakings. Water runs downhill, so you must make sure you have enough " fall" toward the "drain. The "plumbing' will have to be designed. The riverbeds will have to be absolutely water tight. The splash from any water fall will have to be contained. In these areas, you will probably have to use a resin(fiberglass) of some sort. Seams and joints in these areas must be absolutely waterproof. And to make the system more "hands-off" I would suggest a "water level top-off" system with a supply line to keep the water level in your sump adequate, much like in some aquarium set ups. Nothing worse than to have to do added maintenance.

That is another subject to broach. Maintenance. Track cleaning,, and added water changes for the herps. I think that alone would be over whelming when added together. Slop a bit of water on the layout and things could be ruined. Accidents DO happen. And according to Mr. Murphy, they occur at the worst possible time and do the worst possible damage.

I don't mean to discourage you, but the reality is there. It's staring you down. And it WILL come to fruition. Even a design fitted to a worst case scenario can go awry. Take it from one who's been there.

Bob


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

Bob, thank you for that comment..... you see with me the more people say you can't of shouldn't... well you guessed it.... that makes me even want it more..... LOL... 
I am a work-o-holic.... I have raised 5 kids and now working on the grandchild. I service and maintain 13 fishtanks of the large size, I care for the turtles , frogs and lizard, I maintain the yard work at home... and run my own business.. I oversee 5 employees, and custom paint at least 4-5 cylces a week......... so you can see my mentality. some may say how do I have time.... I wonder that myself.... but I do what I need to do and do not screw around..... I also spend a lot of time mentoring new artist on an airbrush site. and stay in touch with all my friends on fish forums..... Yes I am a busy man.... 
not sure if you saw the youtube or not.. but several of those tanks I built myself and all the cabinet work as well.....and the scenery. the train idea was one that popped in my head last Sunday morning..... by sunday evening I was over talking to the guys a Papa Bears train..... I think they prob don't know what to think of me yet.... Money is not a real huge issue here..... my personal ability to take my time IS.....


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I have asked this question before on other sites and have not met anyone that has a positive answer on doing it.

I always wanted to try real water too but as Bob says it can be done but it's a large task to do right.
And then to maintain it right would be a chore too.
One other problem I was told was about the RR taking in to much humidity from the water too among all the other negative things said about building a RR with real water. They mentioned green slime forming too but I think as with a fish tank that could be kept in check.

Please..... if you ever do it post some pictures I would love to see them.
Take photos of your progress to as you go along.

Me....I have enough problems and gave up my water ideal a long time ago.


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

well here is how I would do the water..... I would build a recess in the table and apply fibre glass resin to make it water tight..... then I would use Black pond foam around the edges to build the shore (wall) then I would run a drain that would run to a sump under the table.... inside that sump would be a pump or with a valve in the line to regulate the flow of water..... the water would return at a water fall..... water fall can be made with wood forms and same thing fibre glass resin...... make the water fall so the water will fall in to a deep hole and the splash would be contained under the table top level...... On my last lizard cage.. I have 4-5 water fall levels... and the splash was so bad it hit the front window of the cage... I combated that by applying fake grass at the bottom of the falls.... that seemed to work...... you will have evaporation.. I evaporate about a gallon a day in my saltwater tanks.... and about 1 gallon a week in my fresh water tanks.... so I am used to topping off.... and as far as green slime.... as long as the water is moving... the slime should not be an issue..... I have yet to have a slime issue with any of my tanks so far....


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

One of the problems I had with my venture was maintenance. I used a 10g as a sump and filtered the water quite heavily. The tank, in order to keep it from view was a bit hard to get at. So, when the water level fell to levels too low for the pump, I ran into problems. Also, just like an inhabited tank, water changes are needed, filters cleaned...... And to add note here....Even 'empty tanks will have a nitrate and nitrite build up. Algae sees this as a nutrient, and can grow, seemingly overnight. Even with high volume filtration(I was filtering well over 100g/hr) the problem may not be avoided. But, I did think that the algae growing along the river banks gave the scene a bit of realism, but it was a mess.

I usually don't ring my own bell, but I am as well versed in aquaria as I am in trains. I have written articles on reverse flow filtration and "layered" filtration(using more than one type of filter). So, I do know what I am talking about here. By adding water, you will more than double the maintenance on the layout. I may even be a bit conservative in that statement.

The electronics will, somehow, need to be isolated from the humidity. That is a given. Moisture, heat, humidity and such, play hell with electrical connections, apparatus, and such. This is a good example of "never the twixt shall meet". Bad karma happens.

Another observation. You will need to select your scenery materials carefully. My very best suggestion would be to use fiberglass mat and resin. This combination is more impervious to the rigors of the humidity and possible water spills, splashes and sprays. One would use such materials much like hobbyists use plaster cloth and Hydrocal. Paints and washes would need to be oil based rather than water based also.

Bob


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

*thought*

here are my thoughts so far.... as I search the net forHO layouts....I ammore drawn to the attached.... and not the 20' straight line turn the corner for anohter 20' and then the 300 car train........ so to speak... I am not going to be spending hours hooking up cars and running them up the line to unhook them and have my buddies stop by to run a second engine.... the attached pics are something more along the lines of a "amusement park" layers over layers and maybe winding up 200 foot of track into 12 square feet.. (just guessing here) more of a turn it on... let it run and turn it off at end ofthe day..... Office display..... the more I think.. I think I want a rollercoaster... LOL.... oh man the choices........ yep this will take some planning... sorry if I am wasting you guys time here... not intended.... I thought there may be someone who has something like what I was invisoning.... I may be rubbing the purist railroaders the wrong way.... sorry not intending that ether... thank you forall your replies.... I need tothink this thru some more.. Imay go buy some track and start laying stuff out just to see what my boundries are... I do not want to run 16' in a straight line tomake an incline of 4" I would rather run a circle 16' to go up the incline..and pass thru tunnels and over bridges alongthe way.... does this make sense?


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## Cope (Aug 17, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yizN6btBdQE&feature=related something simular to this.....


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## GoodTrackRoad (Sep 17, 2009)

Holy cow! good luck with that one, that video is crazy. - Is it just me or does everyone on youtube run there trains at 200mph


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

if you can run your train fast, why not run it fast?


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## GoodTrackRoad (Sep 17, 2009)

Good point lol. I like them nice and slow


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## GoodTrackRoad (Sep 17, 2009)

Also they have a pretty large layout in the science center in Pittsburgh and it has a river that’s 3 inches deep with real water, they also have a tug pushing a barge with a house on it that moves through the water using magnets under the layout. Its pretty kool but the water is none flowing and the people say its not that much up keep but there’s tons of volunteers that take care of it so I’m sure they don’t find it a bother. I have pics on my facebook i should make the album public and put up a link.


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

Not all trains are meant to travel fast. Many roads have speed restrictions. Slow is sometimes more realistic.

Bob


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## Mil1ion (Sep 8, 2009)

Read post #774 on this thread

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=12502#post12502


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