# Question on brush fitment and replacement (2100)



## sporadic (Nov 27, 2012)

Hello everyone, first post here so figured a little introduction would be in order. I'm not an avid collector by any means, just some guy who enjoys Lionel trains. Back in the late 70's, my dad starting passing trains on to my brother and then me so I guess that's where I get the taste from. My collection is small, but consists of a restored prewar Commodore Vanderbilt (my favorite), two very abused 2029 locos and tenders (i recall my brother and I running them into each other as children), a mostly scrap 634 (blame my brother for tearing it apart), a beautiful 2100 T-1 4-8-4 shelf queen which has giving me nothing but fits, and a wide assortment of rolling stock. What brings me here is a renewed interest as everything has either been a shelf queen or in boxes for the past 10 years. That and being newly married wants me to get my trains running for the kids and under the tree 

Now, the train and issue in regards to this post, the 2100 T-1 4-8-4 (Lionel 6-18006).. This engine was given to me as a present from my father in the early 90's. Ever since I got it, its had an issue where sometimes it just won't go (from a stop). I had always thought it was something binding as the E-Unit would click and cycle but the train would just sit there and buzz / hum. Sometimes if I rocked it back and forth enough, it would start working again. Back then I was pretty intimidated by tearing into something so pricey so I just dealt with it. Well, last night I finally tore into it. With the shell off I was able to reproduce the problem a few times. When it occurred, I could turn the armature just a hair by hand and it'd work again. I couldn't feel any binding in the gear box. I made some marks on the armature with a sharpie to see if it stalled in the same spot and the few times it did, it was close. I finally pulled the brush plate off. The commutator had what looked like normal wear to me, but one of the brushes was far from flat and was worn at an angle and rounded. I thought that was rather odd and tried to face them by hand on a sanding block and cleaned up the commutator. When I went to re-install them, I noticed the brush which was worn unevenly wobbled in the tube. I swapped them around and sure enough, the slop followed the brush. The one brush was slightly smaller in diameter. It was getting late and I called it a night, but I'll take my calipers to them tonight. I don't know what kind of tolerances the brushes should have in the tubes, but they shouldn't be so loose to where they wear like that should they? I'm hoping this has been my issue all along. Anyone ever seen anything like that? As for replacement brushes, I found 610-8502-150 in the parts diagram. Should I replace them with an aftermarket brush of some sorts or just go with that part number? I'm having a hard time finding information on brushes for these motors. Anything else I should check for? Thanks!
-shelby

2100 Manual: http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/service-documents/download.cfm?file=71-8006-250.pdf
2100 Diagram: http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/service-documents/download.cfm?file=161-8006Complete.pdf

Commutator before cleaning:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sporadic (! ... I like that username! Sounds like a sister to the Britannic and the Titanic, too!),

Welcome to the forum ... nice to see you're (finally) dusting off those old trains ... happy kids on the way, I'm sure!

Give Jeff Kane at the Train Tender a ring ... he's great with parts, and rather willing to help one out on the phone. I'v dealt with him extensively for pre- and post-war parts. I'm not sure how much "modern" stuff he has, but it's worth a shot. www.ttender.com

Clean up that commutator (armature face) with an eraser or a Dremel brush while you're at it.

Just out of curiosity, is the e-unit in that loco old-school electro-mechanical, or new-school full-electrical?

You've got to post some pics of your old / prewar Vanderbilt at some point ... lots of drooling awaits here, I'm sure.

Cheers,

TJ


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## sporadic (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks TJ, I just sent an email to him. The name has kinda stuck with me for years and has seemed to be fitting of my personality, lol. I've had a nasty habit of bouncing between way too many hobbies over the years. I cleaned up the commutator last night and will try to get more pictures this evening along with the brush diameters. I need to service my vandy as well and get it under the tree. The 2100 is old school elctro-mechanical.
-shelby


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Shelby,

See how the brush replacement option goes ... could be the ticket, per your logic above ... good detective work on your end.

Just in case, you might want to check out this excellent two-part video on servicing old mechanical e-units ... well worth a few minutes ... grab the popcorn, sit back, and enjoy!

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6131

We also have a good thread with Lionel parts sources ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8090

And another thread with general links to tips, information sources, etc. ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5946

Keep us posted,

TJ


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

I back the brushes as well. An ill fitting brush that does not sit flat on the 
commutator will give all kinds of fits and bothers. Also if you can get two
new springs for the brushes at the same time do it.

Pookybear


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Remember, the brush needs to make contact with the brush holder. A loose brush probably won't make good contact, and so this is likely the problem. clean out the holes in the brush holder that hold the brushes. Lacking a Dremel tool, you can clean the commutator with a ScotchBrite pad. Check that the bearings for the armature are not worn as this may allow the armature to contact the field which will prevent the motor from running. But, based on your comments, I think this is not happening and the problem is with the small brush.


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## sporadic (Nov 27, 2012)

I actually watched those E-Unit ones earlier this week and have been hitting all the links up as well. Great info on this site! I'm having trouble however finding part numbers and diagrams for my postwar stuff. I see lots of references to the Olsen Toy site, but that doesn't seem to be around anymore. 

I squared the face of the brushes off last night and tried to resize the tube for the smaller one, but that didn't work too well. Was still sloppy. I threw everything back together and ran it unloaded for a little bit to seat the brushes. It reversed fine and everything worked perfectly. Put her on the track and she ran better than she ever has and glitch free for about 30min... Then it started exhibiting the same behavior... Pretty sure the brushes are the issue now. I contacted Jeff at Train Tender and he said the 622-121 brushes would work, however they look a little different than what I have. Mine (part 610-8502-150 according to the diagram) are shouldered with the smaller neck contacting the commutator and no slot in the rear. Since there isn't a slot for the spring, maybe the brush rotating in the tube is contributing to this as well? I pulled a brush out of my 634 (looks like a 622-121 except the older copper ones I think) and it measured at .180. My "good" fitting brush was .186 and my sloppy one was .178. Below are pics of the cleaned up commutator (scotch brite and contact cleaner) and the brushes before I squared the faces up. And my finger isn't plastic, I'm taking these through my magnifying lamp 

Unrelated to the brushes, the bell is missing for this engine as well and I'm having a hard time locating it. It's part number 610-2100-119 according to the diagrams and doesn't even show up when searching on Lionel's site. Anyone know of a bell that would fit?

Brushes before squaring:









Commutator after cleaning:


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## sporadic (Nov 27, 2012)

Just for reference, here's the motor still mounted before I touched anything:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think you're well on the right track here with your diagnosis / action-steps. Commutator looks great. Keep us posted.

The Olsen's site has been down since hurricane Sandy. We'r all hoping they get back up and running ... their library database is THE online source for postwar (and some prewar) Lionel service info / parts diagrams, etc.

You should pick up a copy of the Greenberg service manual ... well worth $20 or so ...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...r?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=1354207479&sr=8-1

There's also lots of retailers on ebay offering Lionel service CD's / DVD's for around $15 or so. They're all more-or-less the same ... each with a compilation of pre- and post-war Lionel catalogs, service spec sheets, etc. All stuff that's now no-longer copyrighted by the (now reorganized / new) Lionel company. Worth the investment, if you're getting more serious.

Regards,

TJ


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I know olsens sells stuff on ebay as well (under the name trainparts, or something similar). I picked up a wheel for my 1946 2020 turbine from them.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Turn the brushes around so the fat end is on the commutator. Usually when one end of the brush is turned down, it is for a coil spring.


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## sporadic (Nov 27, 2012)

I thought the design and the way they were installed was odd as well servoguy. Maybe were trying to get rid of old stock? Right now I can bump the wheels a little by hand to get it started so its not quite as bad as before. I'll probably just wait til I get the new brushes and springs before I tear back into it. I put in a word to Santa for the Greenberg repair manual, thanks TJ!

I emailed Lionel as well and they couldn't even tell me what parts to use  At least they pointed to the same vendors which I've seen recommended here. Here's what I received from them:



> Talk To US [email protected]
> to me
> Shelby,
> 
> ...


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