# High and Low... I don't know



## kix662003

I bought some switches for my layout at a train show back in February, and then did some trading with shaygetz and got four more. They all seem to be remote controlled, but four have a manual "slider" on the switch also. The first ones have taller light towers than the other four. I need to buy new bulbs for all of them this Saturday, and I don't know what to tell people who ask why they're different. They're close enough for the difference to be noticed. Any help from the Flyer guys?








You can see how close they are on the track layout.








This is the first type that I purchased at the train show.








This is one of the four that I got from shaygetz with the manual slider control.


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## Southern Tier

*Not much help but...*

The first type you purchased are technically model 720A manufactured from 1950 - 1956. These are often referred to as 720. But actual 720s are what you refer to as the "manual slider" were manufactured from 46 - 49.

Both models could be purchased as truly maual switches: 722 and 722A.

Just guessing here that type bulb used was likley the same. All my switches are the 720A model.


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## Big Ed

Bring the old bulbs with you?
Are they marked with anything?


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## kix662003

big ed said:


> Bring the old bulbs with you?
> Are they marked with anything?


Yep. I need to take one each of the bulbs along. There may not be any Flyer vendors at the show, but it seems likely that Lionel or Marx used the same bulbs in something. I'm hoping that Lionel used the four ribbon wire too. There's always a ton of Lionel vendors and the rest are usually new stuff. 

A buddy wants me to go with him to an antiques shop near the beach tomorrow. He said that he went in last week and the guy has "a ton of Flyer stuff". Around here, that can be said if there are six pieces of track for sale!


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## shaygetz

...and there's always Radio Shack, they're usually good with odd bulbs. BTW, bulb lens color paint can be purchased at Hobby Lobby and Micheals I believe...

You just don't know how much it tickles me to see that track up and running. As an aside, a good creosote tie "stain" is plain old black Magic Marker.


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## kix662003

shaygetz said:


> ...and there's always Radio Shack, they're usually good with odd bulbs. BTW, bulb lens color paint can be purchased at Hobby Lobby and Micheals I believe...
> 
> You just don't know how much it tickles me to see that track up and running. As an aside, a good creosote tie "stain" is plain old black Magic Marker.


Thanks for the bulb paint lead, and using a magic marker! I didn't know.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Kix -- I posted a response to your other thread about those switches. I suggest you take a look at it as it contains some pertinent info about the controls.

My info shows you should be using #1447 (#453) clear bulbs in the switches. See how these compare with the ones you take along to your LHS.


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## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Kix -- I posted a response to your other thread about those switches. I suggest you take a look at it as it contains some pertinent info about the controls.
> 
> My info shows you should be using #1447 (#453) clear bulbs in the switches. See how these compare with the ones you take along to your LHS.


Thanks for explaining the two styles produced over the years. I took one each of the bulbs out, but there aren't any numbers on them, only volts and amperage. I did have the 453 number from my operating booklet, and both styles of the switches have the same size bulb inside. The controller bulb is larger. 

A friend introduced me to a train shop yesterday. I saw it advertised online, but I was told it went out of business 3 years ago. The owner just moved to a smaller building in town. They still sell Flyer track and rolling stock, and stock various bulbs to match up. They have brand-new stuff... uncouplers and action cars in Gilbert boxes. I think I'll be making some more trips to the store.

I'm off to the Roxanna Model Train show today in Delaware, and hoping to find the ribbon style wire I need for the new switches. There were some dealers from up your way at the show in Seaford, Delaware in Feb and hope to see them at this show. They can write off a weekend at the Ocean to sell at the show. 

Thanks again.


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## kix662003

shaygetz said:


> ...and there's always Radio Shack, they're usually good with odd bulbs. BTW, bulb lens color paint can be purchased at Hobby Lobby and Micheals I believe...
> 
> You just don't know how much it tickles me to see that track up and running. As an aside, a good creosote tie "stain" is plain old black Magic Marker.


I thought of you yesterday. There's an antique toy store in Berlin that specializes in transportation type toys. They have a load of old model trains, structures, accessories, lots and lots of die-cast in every scale, old metal toys, and even the B&S powered "pedal" cars. I'm not sure that I saw any live steam stuff, but who'd get rid of any? You would have enjoyed looking around. It's a fairly large store, too.


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## shaygetz

Been awhile since I've seen Berlin, I used to be the youth pastor at Stephenson UMC there at the end of Main, across from the parking lot. There was a train shop at one time on the other end of town, is that still there?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Kix -- Which shop in Berlin? There was a Hobby Shop at the South end of Main, past the Atlantic Hotel a block or so, same side of street, is that the place? I've been there several times, whenever I visit OCM for a few days. Love going to Raynes Reef for lunch. Also enjoy the shopping, walking the old style streets. Do they still have the farmer's market at the North end of Main, believe it was on Thursday or Friday each week?? The Berlin Fire Department also has a beautifully restored "Old Mack" fire truck which I believe they bought new back in that time period. I took several photos of it the last time I was there. It's of particular interest to me as I was a 33 year volunteer firefighter as well as working for Mack Trucks here in the Lehigh Valley, PA for nearly 30 years. Looking to retire in the next couple of years.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Wait....I remember...there was another Hobby Shop off a side street where the guy was selling items on consignment for other owners. He had some Flyer stuff in there when I visited. I bought my first 'recent' (2010) Flyer price guide there that time. I do remember my wife having to pull me out of that store cause I didn't want to leave until I saw everything. The gentleman was well up in years, but very friendly and knowledgeable. I enjoyed talking trains with him that day.


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## kix662003

shaygetz said:


> Been awhile since I've seen Berlin, I used to be the youth pastor at Stephenson UMC there at the end of Main, across from the parking lot. There was a train shop at one time on the other end of town, is that still there?


Yes, but the old building that you remember now belongs to the Chamber of Commerce. Walt's new location is in the center of downtown where all the little shops and public restrooms are. We stopped by there after the train show in Roxanna today, and he had all the bulbs for the turnouts and controls.  His new place is a lot smaller, with no layouts, but has a lot of inventory. He's going to order some of the wire for the turnouts and call when it's in. 

There was a little bit of Flyer stuff today, but nothing I really had to have. Got a free 2013 American Flyer catalog and lapel pin, and brought home a little Bachmann Spectrum On30 Village Street Car that runs on nickel silver rail EZ-track. It comes with a car barn and has electronic auto-reversing. The street car and barn are about the size of the Flyer set, and runs on HO track. I thought it would help tie my two scales on two levels together, and the kids will like it. 

Had a good time today, but the show was the smallest local show so far this year. Didn't see any Shay Locomotives or anything that was steam powered.


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## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Wait....I remember...there was another Hobby Shop off a side street where the guy was selling items on consignment for other owners. He had some Flyer stuff in there when I visited. I bought my first 'recent' (2010) Flyer price guide there that time. I do remember my wife having to pull me out of that store cause I didn't want to leave until I saw everything. The gentleman was well up in years, but very friendly and knowledgeable. I enjoyed talking trains with him that day.


I'll bet it was when Walt was between buildings. His address now is Walt's Train Shop, 8 Pitts Street. He still has new and used and does in-house repairs. He's open Thursday, Friday and Saturday until 5PM. Walt's no kid, and is very knowledgeable. I think the lady at the store is his wife. When he sold his building three years ago, lots of people thought he closed shop. If you got a 2010 AF catalog, that's when he "disappeared". It's neat that you found him.

The Jazz festival is going on in Berlin and so is Spring Fest in Ocean City. My rich buddy drove when we went, and takes all the side streets and short cuts. I'll keep an eye out for the old Mack and let you know. PM me if you're coming this way. You can stop by on a rainy day and I'll burn you a burger or chicken breast on my new Traeger pellet grill. Or, we can meet in Berlin or on the Boardwalk. It would be great to meet the people that I "talk" to so much.


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## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Kix -- Which shop in Berlin? There was a Hobby Shop at the South end of Main, past the Atlantic Hotel a block or so, same side of street, is that the place? I've been there several times, whenever I visit OCM for a few days. Love going to Raynes Reef for lunch. Also enjoy the shopping, walking the old style streets. Do they still have the farmer's market at the North end of Main, believe it was on Thursday or Friday each week?? The Berlin Fire Department also has a beautifully restored "Old Mack" fire truck which I believe they bought new back in that time period. I took several photos of it the last time I was there. It's of particular interest to me as I was a 33 year volunteer firefighter as well as working for Mack Trucks here in the Lehigh Valley, PA for nearly 30 years. Looking to retire in the next couple of years.


The Farmer's Market was open on Friday. It is a neat old town. Always something going on there. Be sure to add Toy Town Antiques and More to your list. Lots of train stuff and he keeps prices low to sell volume. The store's at 115 N. Main Street.


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## carinofranco

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Kix -- I posted a response to your other thread about those switches. I suggest you take a look at it as it contains some pertinent info about the controls.
> 
> My info shows you should be using #1447 (#453) clear bulbs in the switches. See how these compare with the ones you take along to your LHS.


Yes, the 1447 are 18v and less likely to melt the plastic red/green octagonal shutter in the switch housing, if that is the type you have. Even with the 18v bulb, I insert a diode in series with the lamp to further reduce the chance of melting. This Still produces enough light to see the signal clearly. There were several variations in the 720 and 720a pertaining to the connectors, switch mechanics and color shutters. The cover for the shutters was wider when the sliding red/green shutter was used rather than the octagonal shutter.


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## kix662003

carinofranco said:


> Yes, the 1447 are 18v and less likely to melt the plastic red/green octagonal shutter in the switch housing, if that is the type you have. Even with the 18v bulb, I insert a diode in series with the lamp to further reduce the chance of melting. This Still produces enough light to see the signal clearly. There were several variations in the 720 and 720a pertaining to the connectors, switch mechanics and color shutters. The cover for the shutters was wider when the sliding red/green shutter was used rather than the octagonal shutter.


Do you have any numbers or specs for the diode that you use? I have a son with an engineering supply of components. Thanks for the input!


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## carinofranco

kix662003 said:


> Do you have any numbers or specs for the diode that you use? I have a son with an engineering supply of components. Thanks for the input!


Hi, yes. you can buy a 25 pack of rectifier diodes from Radio Shack for less than $4. It includes an assortment from 1N4001 to 1N007 (different current capacities). The Radio Shack cat # is 276-1114, They are very small and fit easily anywhere.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I've never heard of any melting problem in the older style switches. Is this common? How about the newer style with the sliding window with red/green tape -- any problems with them?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I'll be sure to let you know if I head down that way. Would love to hit the Ruths Chris steakhouse again. A bit pricy but one of the best filets I have ever eaten -- next to my own of course.


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## carinofranco

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> I've never heard of any melting problem in the older style switches. Is this common? How about the newer style with the sliding window with red/green tape -- any problems with them?


Hi, no, I have never seen melting with the sliding shutters. However, I recently obtained 14 older 720s with the octagonal reg/green plastic shutter and every one was melted. I think perhaps a 14v bulb was used, but I can't tell because it is a molten mass. The Greenberg guide also mentions this problem.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I have a few of those older style switches with the octagonal shutters -- have to keep this in mind when it comes time to service and use them. Can't remember off the top of my head and my shutter type are packed away -- is there a vent hole in the top of the light housing? Is there one in the newer sliding shutter housing?


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## carinofranco

Yes, there is a vent hole in the metal housing over the bulb, but a problem that I see is that there is a tight fit between the bulb and the shutter, so not much air flow. I received some replacement shutters from ttender and these have holes in 4 of the 8 sides about halfway down the sides. This should improve air flow. The original ones I had did not have these holes. I don't know if the repalcement ones are original or some sort of reporduction. I'll ask Jeff.


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## shaygetz

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> I've never heard of any melting problem in the older style switches. Is this common?


Two of those octagonal lenses were melted pretty bad in those switches I traded with him...:thumbsup:


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## kix662003

carinofranco said:


> Hi, yes. you can buy a 25 pack of rectifier diodes from Radio Shack for less than $4. It includes an assortment from 1N4001 to 1N007 (different current capacities). The Radio Shack cat # is 276-1114, They are very small and fit easily anywhere.


Thanks for saving me from looking, and even posting the price!


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## kix662003

The bulbs are 14 Volts that I bought. They're tinted and not painted. I may be better off not to install the clear bulbs in the 720/720A housings?










I also found a neat little camping trailer for $1 at the show and a lot of detail items for the the same price.


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## Big Ed

How did that Smith's knife sharpener work on the track?
It works good on pocketknives too.

Not bad for the price?


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## kix662003

big ed said:


> How did that Smith's knife sharpener work on the track?
> It works good on pocketknives too.
> 
> Not bad for the price?


I like the tool, but the point is too big to go into the pin holes. Insulation hanger wires are the right diameter and don't bend when scraping the inside of the holes. I found the Smith's tool is good for building structures, scraping yellowed glue off plastic, and a lot of other things, I'm sure. Not sorry that I bought it. Yes, the price was right. Thanks for the lead!


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I have found that I like using the painted bulbs on the controllers better when they are lit. The tinted ones seem to allow too much light to shine through and the color is not as pronounced. That's just my preference. If choose to, you can probably paint those.


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## kix662003

I think you're right. Shaygetz told me that Michaels sells glass paint to paint the bulbs. As you can see, I bought a few spares. I can experiment on a couple.

Was thinking about you today. The June 23 Timonium Show will have a separate American Flyer section where the Baltimore Club will have their layout. $9 is pretty cheap for a big show. I looked at the show site today. They state that some of their shows have been a flop, and this may be the last show in June if attendance is low. The one in October is the weekend after York. I was wondering if the show you were disappointed with was one of the flops? Their site says that they lowered the $15 to $9 and have a list of free clinics that are included. Sounds like they're trying to fix the problem. The wife and I can bunk in with her kin in Western Maryland, and I wouldn't have to gas up the camper. I'm thinking about it, but I'm only in the market for wire at present. I'd just be going to look and learn if I decide to go. I know they have a lot of handicap parking spots, which helps.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

IDK, I only went to the one show. It's a pretty long drive for me -- 2-1/2 hours one-way. That's about my limit to go to a show that isn't considered "major". I always enjoy going to shows, especially those that are not near me. That way I find new people selling different items. I can't tell you how many times I run into the same vendors selling the same items for the same prices. You'd think after a while they would catch on.

The Timonium show did feature an S-gauge group when I was there, albeit a fairly small group. They had a modular layout that was nice and offered planty of ideas. They were offering some of the members' used items for sale. I bought a couple of freight rolling stock pieces that day.

Dave Blum is near that area and always has his huge selection of items as well as his line of Pikesville rolling stock. Nice stuff but pricey.

However, besides that, there was no other American Flyer to be seen. There sure was a ton of HO though. For such a huge show, it was sad that there wasn't a larger Flyer presence. Maybe, as you say, it was one of those "off days"?? But I doubt I can justify another 5-hour round trip after that first encounter. Perhaps if someone, who is closer, were to report back to me and let me know if it has improved -- maybe someone who lives in MD, perhaps one who shacks up with his relatives to attend the show....know anyone like that??


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Just in case you were unaware, you can buy the bulbs already painted, usually the same price as those tinted ones. Pretty often they can be found at a good show where someone is selling all types of bulbs. It doesn't matter what scale you work with, the bulbs specifications are nearly identical for all. Some items will need a special bulb due to size and/or shape -- Sam the semaphore comes to mind, as do some of the boiler headlamps -- but they are usually plentiful. I have purchased quite a large inventory of all types of bulbs used with all Flyer items and accessories and placed them in a plastic divided parts storage box with a hinged lid. Works good for me.

Aslo, I have a pretty fair inventory of new, repro and used parts I also store in the same type boxes. I'll gladly send the info to you where to get them at the best price should you find the need.


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## kix662003

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Just in case you were unaware, you can buy the bulbs already painted, usually the same price as those tinted ones. Pretty often they can be found at a good show where someone is selling all types of bulbs. It doesn't matter what scale you work with, the bulbs specifications are nearly identical for all. Some items will need a special bulb due to size and/or shape -- Sam the semaphore comes to mind, as do some of the boiler headlamps -- but they are usually plentiful. I have purchased quite a large inventory of all types of bulbs used with all Flyer items and accessories and placed them in a plastic divided parts storage box with a hinged lid. Works good for me.
> 
> Aslo, I have a pretty fair inventory of new, repro and used parts I also store in the same type boxes. I'll gladly send the info to you where to get them at the best price should you find the need.


If I'm able to go to the MD show, I let you know what I saw and thought.

Thanks for the offer on providing the best places to buy. I'll ask you first.

I'm going to see what is available in LED bulbs for AC applications. If I'm going to wire a diode inline with the bulb, I may as well change to LED. They produce very little heat and last a long, long time. I'll let you know what I find.

Roadbed is down on Flyer layout. Will buy some gray latex paint samples tomorrow and get it painted. Need to glue down the ties and then nail the track. I'm going to weather the track in the siding, but may leave the rest original. The track in the siding came from shaygetz's barn and was already weathering naturally. I still like the idea of the Flyer looking like it did in the 50s.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I forget, did you mention what you are using for roadbed?


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## kix662003

Well, you may not believe this, but I honestly don't know. It's used in residential construction somewhere,and is a mat like the thick fiberglass mat that body shops use for Corvettes. No fibers like fiberglass though... more like thick asbestos that shops used in the old days. It's in rolls about 4" wide, but not a joint tape for walls or roofing. It's densely woven. Maybe for wrapping pipe? It's about the same thickness as the cork roadbed, but edges wrinkle like cloth or paper when curved. I had to use short pieces and trim them for the curves, and had just enough. I don't have more than what will fit into a small envelope left over. After two coats of latex paint on top of it, anything that might come off and give me a problem should be encapsulated. 

We're in our second fixer-upper house, and I've rescued lots of scraps over the years, both from contractors and dumpster diving. It comes in handy almost every day. Lots of vinyl, aluminum sheets, wood of all types, pipe, insulation, and hardware. So far, I've used left over laminate flooring to make rail ties and the plywood sheets are all rejects from a kitchen cabinet shop. I was looking at a roll of red mat that has little Perlite balls attached to provide a moisture barrier and some cushion under engineered flooring today, trying to figure out what part of the scenery construction it would be good for. Maybe a gravel drive? I have an outbuilding full of stuff to use or try on the layout. The real trick is to make it look right and look like something in real life or on a real railroad. The roadbed will be covered with ties and ballast, so it should be fine. I glued it down with construction adhesive and it's stuck! 

My wife helped me unload a 100 lb. box of framing mats yesterday that I had up in the garage attic for a decade or so. A framing shop we used was closing. There's enough board to build roads on 50 layouts or more. Mat board is 2 or 3 times thicker than poster board. I think I'll build some steel girder bridges with it for starters. It's nice an rigid for building structures, and I could have used it for roadbed too, but it doesn't provide any cushion. Cheap craft paint works best on paper, too. No. I don't want to be known as Sanford! I'm just frugal and don't waste a lot of things that can be re-purposed.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

I have to admit, after reading some modeling mags, some on-line MRR sites and this Forum, I too, look at garbage in a whole different light. I've already rescued some vinyl soffit panels from a neighbor's trash pile and stored them in the garage for "future use" as well as rescued some items from our own trash heap. I bring home corrugated cardboard boxes of all sizes from work nearly everyday. The basement is full of them. I've been saving any minor scraps of wood, metal and plastic. I refuse to throw any of our damaged Plasticville pieces away, opting to store them for kit-bashing later on. I know the wife will soon figure I've flipped my cap and call the boys in the white jackets. They just don't understand.


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## kix662003

I've been flat on my back for a week now, reading how easy it is to scratch build S scale structures using mat board and hobby wood. Knowing that I have more than enough boards to make anything I want, I drew in a lower loop on my Flyer layout to see if I could expand it a little more. Shaygetz and I traded for more track, and I may have enough to add 20 to 30% more. I have a crazy idea on how I'd like to do it, and I will be giving it a lot more thought until I can sit in a chair again and maybe even walk to the garage. Thus far, I've been on the down slope, but I think my feet are working better. 

Like yourself, I'm saving scrap materials that I may use to enhance and improve what I have so far. I don't have a track design program on this laptop, and installing one wouldn't help. I'm going to have to physically check clearances and elevations before knowing for certain the new idea will work. I'm enthused at any rate, and I'm anxious to test fit the track. Everything that I've done so far will still work in the new layout. I've re-read the AF Instruction Book that came with the train again, and a lot of Tom Barker's book on wiring reverse loops and automatic controls if I convert to DC. The plan that I drafted doesn't have a reverse loop, and that's good. I really don't have any space to add a second loop to get the train back to the original direction. In my salvage pool, however, I have a turntable from a corner base cabinet that has all the support hardware and nice wood. There is enough space to put a reversing turntable in the layout, but it would have to be right in the front of the layout where I can reach it. I really don't care to have to pick up the old Atlantic engine and tender to physically turn it around after running on the lower level. 

The Mrs. has consented to a second (smaller) scale layout in the guest room, probably to cheer me up. She said that when my back goes, I should be able to lay in a hospital bed and run a smaller train (without smoke). She knows that the last time I went through skeletal changes, it took almost 3 years to reach MMI. If I get another train, it's going to have to run slow! No way for me to re-rail or even see what I'd be trying to do. If you come this way this Summer, stop and take some mat board home with you. Your wife will really like you hauling in even more stuff to stash! Sorry for any typos - not easy to type with this thing on my chest.


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