# Making 1121 switches anti-derail & rehab 1122 switches



## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Hey everyone... loooooong time no see. (life, in the form of a gutted bathroom and a new boiler has gotten in the way of trains.)

So, I have received my transformer and engine back from the train doctor, and it's time to get to work.  

For project number one, I need to make my 1121 switches non-derail. I know I've read instructions on how to do that somewhere, but I can't find them now. I did a search, and didn't come up with anything.

I believe that I have to isolate a side rail and then attach a jumper from the isolated rail to the switch so that if the train comes in from that direction it will activate. Is that correct? 

Also, depending on where I read, either the outside or the center rail should go to the U post on my transformer. Is either "wrong" or "right"? Or do I just have to make a decision and be consistent? 

Thanks!!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi, Michelle,
An easy way to make the 1121 switches non-derailing is to put a piece of electrical tape on one of the outside rails and put a piece of think copper sheet on top of the electrical tape. You should be able to bend the tape and the copper around the rail to keep it in place. Before you put the copper in place, solder a wire to it to attach to one of the posts on the switch. Years ago, Marx used to supply a similar thing that could be put on an outside rail that did the same thing. 

The larger transformers with two or more controls have the U as common and the U should be connected to the outside rail. Single control transformers like the 1033 should have the U terminal connected to the center rail. Don't ask me why Lionel did it this way, but they must have had their reasons.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

That is thin copper, not think copper.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks! Tonight is train night (oops, did I forget to tell my husband that? I'll tell him it's guitar night for him...) so I'll give it a try.

I have a V transformer, it has two track power posts and two accessory power posts. 

Thanks!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a Type V also, but it has 4 train controls. It is a prewar transformer. Is yours different than mine?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

A Type V has the U terminals as common, and they should be connected to the outer rails.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*



servoguy said:


> I have a Type V also, but it has 4 train controls. It is a prewar transformer. Is yours different than mine?


Two big handles, two little handles, four lettered posts, four U posts. 

I assume the little handles are for the accessories? 

I need to get a whistle controller to get my whistling tender to work right? My moms trainmaster has a whistle handle, I don't see why this one doesn't!! lol


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Or you can do this too,
A copy and paste from here, http://www.thortrains.net/manual5.htm

While No. 1121 Switches do not have a built-in non-derailing device, they can be made to operate automatically by a simple installation illustrated in Figure 32. Two No.1045C Contactors are required for each switch. The contactors are clamped to straight track sections adjoining the two exit branches of the switch and are then connected to the terminals on the switch box, as shown in the diagram. Note that connectors clamped to the curved branches are wired to the right-hand switch terminals: those connected to straight-aways, to the left-hand terminals.

When proper connections are made, the wheels of the locomotive approaching an "open" switch automatically make the necessary electrical connection to throw the switch to correct position in order to prevent derailment. varying the position and connection of contactors any switch in the layout can be made to operate automatically, opening and closing sidings and branch lines and routing trains according to a prearranged schedule.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can run 4 trains from the Type V transformer although the power available isn't really enough for more than 2 trains unless the engines are small. All 4 controls work exactly the same.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

Ok, good to know! Thanks!




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can use the contactors or you can make your own from tape and copper sheet. I have the copper sheet, so that is the way I am going. If you use the copper sheet, you can make the contactors on the switch itself and so you are not restricted by having straight sections of track next to the switch.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Have you checked the rollers inside the transformer? Like the Type Z, ZW, and KW, they are replaceable and will wear out after a time.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

I have not checked inside the transformer. I just spent over $50 getting it overhauled, so I'm assuming that the guts that needed to be replaced were replaced.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

Do I need to use insulating pins on 1122 switches? ( not a typo I have 1122's as well)


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

There is one pair of 1122 switches that I sent you that does not need insulating pins. All the others need insulating pins. You can identify the pair that does not need insulating pins by an insulated gap in each of the outer rails. This pair is older than the other switches as Lionel apparently went to the insulated pins to save money.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

Ok, all of them are tested and working. Took some fiddling to get the 1122's to work with the 1121 switches (because I didn't read the manual first lol)

So, when a switch seems to be very very slow, but works fine if you crank the power up to full (without the engine on the track!) what is the most likely culprit? I have not pulled them apart yet, I just want to know what the likely issue(s) might be.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I wrote a post on servicing the 1122 switches. They suffer from poor electrical connections. The electrical connections are crimped and not soldered, and the plastic tends to cold flow and let the connections get loose. I think you found the post some weeks ago. It involves removing the bottom cover of the switch, soldering up all the connections, and then re-installing the cover. While you have the bottom cover off, you can check for proper operation and check the mechanism is free and not binding.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, reading the manual is cheating.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*



servoguy said:


> BTW, reading the manual is cheating.


LOL

I prefer cowboy learning most of the time. I'll start opening them up on my next train night. 

I got a multi-meter to check the track power, but we're evidently doing something wrong because when the train is running it still registers 0. I decided to just ignore it and I'm sure there is voltage because the switch that has a light lights up. Simple, yet effective. If only "someone" would build a few of those voltage meter cars and sell them.... Hmmm...


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Make sure the meter leads are plugged in all the way. I bought a meter from Harbor Freight and the leads wouldn't plug in all the way. Took it back and got another one. 

Make sure the meter is on AC volts. Also make sure the black lead is plugged into the common or ground terminal. The red leas should be plugged into the V ohm mA terminal.

You can check the meter by putting it on the ohm scale and touching the leads together. It should read near zero. If the display doesn't change, the leads are not making contact somewhere.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

Still working on the 1122's

Are these clips used for grounding or just holding it together? Should I solder them too?


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The long outside rails are normally soldered to the bottom plate at one end. That is sufficient.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Can you send a picture that shows the entire bottom plate?


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*









The only places I soldered was where there were rivets. ( And on the inside where they were crimped)


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

None of them had soldier on the outside. Here are the places I did on the inside


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

This one has soldier on the outside, and I didn't open it up. The two like this have a lot more crimps and rivets than the others. These two are the ones that don't need insulating pins.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi, Michelle,
Can you post a picture of the switch that has the bottom cover removed? Make the picture so I can see the entire switch.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

I'll have to un-solder one to do that. I'll post tomorrow. Done with trains for the night.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

*Making 1121 switches anti-derail*

Well... After being unable to find my printed out directions on those switches and then just doing the best that I could remember... I, of course, found the instructions and skipped a step or two. 

So it's back to the drawing board, I'll let you know how it goes!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Memory is a tricky thing, that's why I use paper memory.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/164691.aspx

Here's the "to do" list for the 1122's

And at some point I'm going to actually get to the 1121's, as was the original purpose of this thread!! lol 

If a mod happens to have a minute, would you please add "rehab 1122" to the thread title, since both are in here?

Thanks!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The link you posted is for the 022 O-31 switches. There is another post for the 1122 switches.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

servoguy said:


> The link you posted is for the 022 O-31 switches. There is another post for the 1122 switches.


Here? Or on the other forum?

I found this one, but haven't come up with the other one yet. http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5513


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

This one is the best link


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

I started on the switches again last night. I got three redone, and they now switch at 10 or less, so I am very pleased with the results!! Thank you SO much for your help!!!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Before and after on the controllers


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't know if you mentioned this but you should clean up the rust on the switches and either repaint or spot paint them to protect them from further corrosion.

You could just spot paint as you won't see the bottoms anyway, and it will help stop the corrosion.

Just a thought.:smokin:


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Goo thought Ed. And now that I stopped soldering them together, I can pull them apart and fix them... again... lol


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can recommend EvapoRust for cleaning up rust on the switches or anything else, works like magic! 

For old 022 switches, I cleaned up the bases by removing all the rUst and then repainting them.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Any thoughts on how to get this apart?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The whole thing or just the bulb socket?


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

The bulb out of the socket.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd probably replace the socket, but if you want the bulb out, I'd soak it in vinegar for about 10 minutes and see if that helps.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I would go with replacing the socket too.
It looks in bad shape.

Where is it said that you can break the bulb and use a potato to unscrew the broken part?
Or is that with a household light bulb?
I seem to remember something that said this. I never tried it.
I would say if you try this with a household bulb that you make sure the power is off.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

The potato trick is for getting the base of a shattered bulb out of a socket, and yes, that's usually for household sized bulbs. 

I'll have to get some sockets... 

Nothing is EVER easy, is it?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I like the soaking in vinegar idea. You might also try to grab the base of the lamp with needle nose pliers and see if you can turn it. You may have to grab the socket with another pair of pliers to keep it from turning.

You could also squeeze the socket gently with pliers to break loose the corrosion.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Squeezing the socket gently in several axis might break it free, that's probably a good idea.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Use a miniature potato? 

Just as easy to put a new socket on. isn't it?
I would have to look at mine, I don't think it is that hard. 
Yours looks fairly corrode?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have some sockets that might work here, PM me your address and I'll send you a couple.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

three out of four switches are working great, the fourth is still being slow. What kind of lubricant do you use on them Bruce?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I use motor oil for everything. With that said, don't get the oil on any plastic as it may make the plastic soft and/or sticky. Which switch is not working well?

I lube the 022s with motor oil, and it really improves their operation. Last time I had a layout, most of the 022s were switching reliably at 9 volts. 

Look and see if you can see anything rubbing, or anything that doesn't move easily. Make sure the link from the solenoids to the movable points is not rubbing on anything.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Anti-derail 1122 switches.









Now, my next goal is to direct power the switches because they are driving me batty... 

(Posted in two places because at some point it made sense to me to divide the topic up. Sorry about that!!)


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you wire the switches to use a constant voltage from the transformer, you will want to make sure you don't cook the coils in the switch motors. Bob Nelson on CTT forum has a capacitor discharge circuit for these switches that will make the switches work well and will not cook the coils.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

I definitely want to avoid coil cooking!!

Some of the switches have a nice, crisp snap at low power. Others are sluggish until they get a little more juice... But then the train is moving too fast to make the corners safely. 

So I figured if I wired the switches to their own knob on the transformer they could get the power they need and we wouldn't have the train going at MACH 2. Yes? No?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You are correct in believing that the switches will work better using a constant voltage from the transformer rather than track power. You will have to open the switches and bring out the wire that goes to the center rail. Bob's cap discharge circuit is quite simple.

It is also possible that you can use a constant voltage of around 12-14 volts and the switches will work well at that voltage and the coils will not cook. Take off one of the switch machine covers and apply a constant voltage to the coils and see how warm they get. If you can touch them without burning your fingers, you should be OK.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

O27 switches definitely work better off of transformer power. However, if you stop a train with wheels on the anti-derail contact the coil will energize continuously and cook. 022 switches have a circuit that allows for only temporary firing to avoid cooking.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Cooking the coils depends on the transformer voltage. I have never tested 1121 or 1122 switches to determine how high the transformer voltage can be and not cook the coils.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

No kids under the age of 35 in my home. I'm not worried about parking trains on switches. ;-)


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The 5121 is just a more modern manufacturing run of the 1121 I believe.
> 
> See this Lionel 27" Path Switch document, it describes the modifications for fixed power.


Ok, so I pulled this post from another thread...

Page five of the linked document has instructions on making the switches fixed voltage. I have to admit that cutting wires in the switch freaks me out a little. lol

I'm assuming that once I give the switches constant power, I then use insulating pins on the center rails? Or do I use them on all three rails?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I believe, if you read the mods, when you cut the internal wire, you disconnect the switch from the track power. You do NOT want insulating pins on the center rail, or it'll become a parking lot for every locomotive that goes over it.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You do not have to change the insulating pins when you modify the switch for fixed voltage power.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Your in it this far, cut the wire. You can do anything. Especially after you cleaned up those switches!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

So, is this the wire to cut? Then attach to the transformer and then back to the switch?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Cut the wire that goes to the center rail. Cut it near where it is soldered onto the center rail.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

One switch is successfully direct powered!!! Woo Hoo!!!

I'll take pictures of my next one, incase anyone is interested in how I did it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

So first I drilled out the rivets and opened up the switch. 







Red arrow - wire you cut near the center rail
Yellow arrows - places to clean and lubricate so the switch slides easily
Blue arrow - the channel where the wire will go


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

The bottom of the switch already has a cut out








I used a drill on the top of the switch at the end of the channel so that I could run the wire out. 








I put a piece of shrink tubing around the wire to protect it from rubbing on the metal


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Reassemble the switch and solder a lead wire to the original wire. This wire goes to your transformer. 







Shrink wrap the connection to protect it. 

Use short 4/40 screws and nuts to put everything back together


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

mnp13 said:


> Anti-derail 1122 switches.
> 
> View attachment 32065
> 
> ...


I found out that the sides of the switches are not consistent, so don't measure and cut your wires exactly to length because sometimes the posts are reversed. Luckily I had but my connector wires over length and it was an easy swap. 

That's copper shielding tape that my husband had from the inside of his electric bass. I soldered the wire to it, and then stuck it on over electrical tape.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Looking good. I want to see a video of the train running and operating the non-derailing switches.


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

I'll make one for you tonight


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Bruce - Here are the switches!

http://youtu.be/Ot98Tav8JOE

http://youtu.be/Wc9obeeX5Eo


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Looks like they work just fine!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Way cool, and very simple to do. What voltage are you using to operate the switches? Did you check to see how hot the switch motor coils get if the coils stay energized? Finger test?


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Soooo....

In a different thread, I commented that my hobbies drive me to drink...

Now, every time my tender goes over a 1121, it uncouples. This is a new behavior... I think my trains are picking on me.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Spring? I'm not good on coupler repair!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

FIXED IT!!

(electrical tape over the shoe... very very high tech repair)


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have had the same problem with 022 switches. The tip of the fat rail can stick up high enough to trip the coupler. My solution was to bend down the tip of the fat rail very slightly. I think you can do the same thing with the 1121 & 1122 switches.


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## jeff_soup (Oct 2, 2015)

mnp13 said:


> One switch is successfully direct powered!!! Woo Hoo!!!
> 
> I'll take pictures of my next one, incase anyone is interested in how I did it.


I have followed along with your directions on constant voltage to a 1121 switch. I cut the wire and connected it to my fixed voltage terminal on the transmitter. Now when I run the train it stops on the switch. Do I need to run another wire somewhere? I can't figure it out by rearranging the insulating pins. Please let me know. Thanks


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

Sorry, I only just saw this. I'm pulling out everything this weekend and I'll check to see what needs to go where. Can you post a picture or diagram of how you wired it?


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

servoguy said:


> Way cool, and very simple to do. What voltage are you using to operate the switches? Did you check to see how hot the switch motor coils get if the coils stay energized? Finger test?


As I recall, it was very scientific. I turned the dial up until the switches worked fast. :laugh:

The motor coils didn't get overly hot, but now I have a laser temp gun and I'll be able to give you an exact temp reading.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi, Michelle,
Good to see you again. I have 30+ prewar American Flyer O gauge 3 rail switches that I am converting to non-derailing and constant voltage. The reason I buy these switches is they are O-40, not O-31. I also buy the AF prewar O-40 track. I have a good bit of O-72 track and switches, but it takes a huge amount of space. The AF track is a good compromise.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Hey to both of you long time Michelle! And servoguy , you too!


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

sjm9911 said:


> Hey to both of you long time Michelle! And servoguy , you too!


Hey there! Of course I'm back, it's Christmas time! :laugh:


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## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

servoguy said:


> Hi, Michelle,
> Good to see you again. I have 30+ prewar American Flyer O gauge 3 rail switches that I am converting to non-derailing and constant voltage. The reason I buy these switches is they are O-40, not O-31. I also buy the AF prewar O-40 track. I have a good bit of O-72 track and switches, but it takes a huge amount of space. The AF track is a good compromise.


Someday hopefully my kid will want to get into the trains and we'll put up a big layout. We have more than enough basement space for it. Then I'll get into the larger curves, but for now 27 is a great size for under the tree. And I just love the curves of the old deco switches, so I'd be sad to give them up!


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