# Turnout frog power or no power?



## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

I joined the forum a little over a year ago and posted questions about turnout types and reverse loops. I decided to transition from my 3 rail O gauge layout to DCC HO. Since then I’ve been sidetracked with building a ceiling suspension for my MTH DCS controlled O gauge 3 rail trains. I’ve been reading a lot; this forum, DCC wiki, Digitrax case studies, videos, etc. My HO bench work is just about complete. I plan to operate trains both manually and automatically (probably TrainController). I plan to use PECO code 83 unifrog turnouts and track. I plan to keep the frog insulated. I understand this is best if I don’t have locomotive electrical dead spots when traveling over the frog. I haven’t purchased any equipment yet but I plan to use Digitrax Equipment and locomotives with electrical pickups that span the length of the turnout frog. I plan a rail yard were smaller locomotives will operate at very slow speeds. I guess there could be a situation were the electrical pickup of the locomotive range is smaller than the length of the frog. In that case I plan to use a frog juicer to power the unifrog frog. Do you agree that the frog need only be powered if the length of a locomotive electrical pickup is smaller then the frog length?

I plan to use slow motion switch machines on my turnouts. I used solenoid atlas-O turnouts on my O gauge layout and burned out a few. The blue impulse button they provide with the turnout can stick and that’s all it takes. I replaced all those blue buttons with a better quality switch. Another lesson I learned is not to place the turnout on a grade, they operate much better when level.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

If the wheel base of the wheels with pickups is shorter than the frog, then yes, they should be powered. At slow speeds the locomotive will stall at a dead frog.

The pickuped wheels should overspan the frog.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Yes, absolutely, the pickups MUST be getting power on both sides of a dead frog...and that's often more of a problem than one can imagine. The trouble comes from the arrangements of pickups, which wheels, and on which tracks are they picking up the power. There are cases where the pickups are on the same rail, which does nobody any good. It must be that, for pickup wheels straddling an unenergized frog, the wheels on one end must be getting power from Rail A, but the wheels on the other side of the frog MUST get power from Rail B....or else. Some older steamer models from the 60's through to the 90's did not have that design. The locomotive got power only on the left rail, and the tender got it only on the right. Made a wonderful wheelbase of pickup length, but at a dead frog the tender wasn't able to provide the 'other' polarity/phase. So the axles are ideally mixed up. The steamer will have two axles taking up left rail power, and one or two, maybe a truck, picking up power from the other rail. Same for the tender. Those locomotives, BLI among them, work a lot more reliably over dead frogs.

And, as you know, the smaller the wheelbase, especially with a tank engine/docksider, the greater the chance of problems, especially over #8 turnouts and longer.

What I would do is to temporarily mock up a yard ladder and see how your engines do. That is hard empirical evidence right there. The engines won't lie to you, but your hopes might. With hard facts, all engines, you can wire the ladder permanently as it seems prudent to do, and that might have to be with fed frogs.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ronham

You are very wise to choose the new Peco Unifrog turnouts.
You therefore have the option to power or not power
the frog. But the good thing is that you do not need to
gap or use insulated joiners in the frog rails since those
are isolated from the frog.

Any time you use single or twin coil turnout motors on your
layout you should power them with a Capacitor Discharge
Unit. It prevents coil burnout when a push button sticks.
An even better way to throw your turnouts is the
Stapleton 751D toggle. It has a built in CDU and can
control panel or trackside signals.



751 SERIES ELECTRONIC TURNOUT SWITCHES



Don


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm curious as to why, if you plan to use slow motion switch machines such as Tortoise or Cobalt, you would want to spend the extra money on a frog juicer instead of using the internal switch of the machine to power the frog? Seems an unnecessary expense to me, unless I'm missing something.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I guess its possible they have used the contacts for something else. I'm tempted to leave the frog isolated and unpower on my next layout.


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

mesenteria said:


> Yes, absolutely, the pickups MUST be getting power on both sides of a dead frog...and that's often more of a problem than one can imagine. The trouble comes from the arrangements of pickups, which wheels, and on which tracks are they picking up the power. There are cases where the pickups are on the same rail, which does nobody any good. It must be that, for pickup wheels straddling an unenergized frog, the wheels on one end must be getting power from Rail A, but the wheels on the other side of the frog MUST get power from Rail B....or else. Some older steamer models from the 60's through to the 90's did not have that design. The locomotive got power only on the left rail, and the tender got it only on the right. Made a wonderful wheelbase of pickup length, but at a dead frog the tender wasn't able to provide the 'other' polarity/phase. So the axles are ideally mixed up. The steamer will have two axles taking up left rail power, and one or two, maybe a truck, picking up power from the other rail. Same for the tender. Those locomotives, BLI among them, work a lot more reliably over dead frogs.
> 
> And, as you know, the smaller the wheelbase, especially with a tank engine/docksider, the greater the chance of problems, especially over #8 turnouts and longer.
> 
> What I would do is to temporarily mock up a yard ladder and see how your engines do. That is hard empirical evidence right there. The engines won't lie to you, but your hopes might. With hard facts, all engines, you can wire the ladder permanently as it seems prudent to do, and that might have to be with fed frogs.


Thanks for your input.

I don't have any HO locomotives. I plan to purchase DDC equiped (not DCC ready) locomotives. I understand that many HO locomotives don't meet NMRA standards and if they did there wouldn't be a problem with electrical pickup when traveling over a insulated frog. I'm not familiar with locomotive brand types and their quality. I will probably buy most of my equipment from places like train world. I like your idea of building a yard ladder to test the electrical pickup footprint.


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

flyboy2610 said:


> I'm curious as to why, if you plan to use slow motion switch machines such as Tortoise or Cobalt, you would want to spend the extra money on a frog juicer instead of using the internal switch of the machine to power the frog? Seems an unnecessary expense to me, unless I'm missing something.


flyboy,

I'm probably the one "missing something". My ignorance level on 2 rail is high at this point. I don't even have any HO equipment. My bench work is almost complete and I will start buying soon. I didn't know that a Tortoise switch machine had an internal switch to power the frog. I thought the only way to power the unfrog frog was to use this thing called a "frog juicer". If the Tortoise switch machine can power the frog, then what is the "frog juicer" good for if I'm using peco unifrog turnouts?

I know the best teacher is trail and error. Once I start getting some equipment I can make some test runs. I just don't to buy stuff I don't need.

Thanks for the input.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There was a time BEFORE the Tortoise turnout motor with it's
ability to control frog power and panel or track side signals.
So there became a 'frog juicer' to fill a need to keep locos
running smoothly...but today, most
new locos have all wheel power pickup making powered frogs
un needed. With the Peco Unifrog turnouts you do not need
a frog juicer. It gives you the choice to power the frog or not.

The locos on the market today are quality products. The
price you pay is mostly for the detailing...what's under the
'hood' is about the same regardless of make. Most model
gear is built to NMRA standards...all DCC systems and
decoders are complient.

Be aware that there are 'catch' phrases that can confuse
a new comer:

DCC ON BOARD means that the loco comes with the
DCC decoder installed and is ready to run.
Some DCC on Board locos also come with Sound.
The box should so indicate.
DCC READY means it is a DC loco but has a jack into
which you can plug in a DCC decoder which you
buy separately

You mention your lack of familiarity with 2 rail
systems. It is important to remember that the
two rails are your electrical source for loco power.
In DC one rail is positive, the other negative. 
In DCC the rails are around 14 volts modified AC.

Your track plan may include an ability to turn a
train around with a loop so that it goes back on
the same track. In 3 rail layouts this is
not a problem, but in a 2 rail layout it requires
special attention. This is called a 'reverse loop' and
it is an electrical problem since at the junction turnout the
two rails meet causing a short circuit.
But by using gaps in the rails or insulated joiners
you can isolate a section of track which you power
with a DCC device called a 'reverse loop'
controller. It is totally automatic.

Don


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

DonR said:


> There was a time BEFORE the Tortoise turnout motor with it's
> ability to control frog power and panel or track side signals.
> So there became a 'frog juicer' to fill a need to keep locos
> running smoothly...but today, most
> ...


Thanks Don for this valuable information. I kind of expected that these electrical pickup issues might be present in older HO locomotives and not in the newer equipment. Yes I plan on having 2 reverse loops and understand the electrical short and necessary gaping needed. I plan to use the Digitrax AR1 to reverse the phase (polarity). I enjoyed reading the information in the DCCwiki about this new oscillating binary/energy signal sent through the rails to the different equipment decoders. I plan to block track sections and maybe use Train Controller to determine block occupancy. I would think the track needs to be kept clean for this electrical/binary interface to work properly.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Power the frogs?

Answer this first, you have a section of track somewhere with 1/2" of dead track; is that OK with you?


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Dennis461 said:


> Power the frogs?
> 
> Answer this first, you have a section of track somewhere with 1/2" of dead track; is that OK with you?


More like one full inch, even longer out on the main with my #8 hand-made turnouts. I see that Peco and I think Atlas both have even longer turnouts on the market. None of mine are powered, and I get no stalling. Not even with my widdo SW8.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Dennis461 said:


> Power the frogs?
> 
> Answer this first, you have a section of track somewhere with 1/2" of dead track; is that OK with you?


See, phrased that way, it sounds like a serious issue, and yet I have unpowered frogs all over my layout, and yet I don't have any issues with locomotives stalling on my turnouts, so why go through the extra effort and expense? So, yeah, I guess I'd have to say I'm OK with that.


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

Thanks everyone. This is my plan. I’m going to go with peco unifrog’s default dead frog setting. Since this turnout is power routing I’m going to use insulated rail joiners on all 4 rails on the diverging side of the turnout. I know it may not be necessary to gap all 4 rails, but I’ll do it anyway. I will use track feeders every 3 feet of track. I’m going to use a tortoise switch machine to activate the turnout.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ron

There is no reason to use insulated joiners or gaps in the
tracks connected to your Peco Unifrog turnouts. The gaps
previously needed were to prevent short circuits as the
frogs and frog rail changed polarity. The Unifrog 
frogs are isolated from
the frog rails, thus the frog rails do not change polarity.
Power routing does not mean a change of polarity. It
does mean that, for example, the divert track goes dead
when points are set straight. This is not a reason to
use insulated joiners, but rather to use frog rail track drops to
track bus if you wish the connected tracks to be 
always powered.

Don


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

DonR said:


> Ron
> 
> There is no reason to use insulated joiners or gaps in the
> tracks connected to your Peco Unifrog turnouts. The gaps
> ...





DonR said:


> 8n
> Ron
> 
> There is no reason to use insulated joiners or gaps in the
> ...


Don,

This confused me because I thought the unifrog operated just like the insulfrog and the insulfrog is power routing and requires insulation at the diverting end of the turnout. So I went back to the DCC wiki and just read this: “the unifrog behaves like the insulfrog but is not power routing”. So that clears that up.

Thanks


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Ronham said:


> Thanks everyone. This is my plan. I’m going to go with peco unifrog’s default dead frog setting. Since this turnout is power routing I’m going to use insulated rail joiners on all 4 rails on the diverging side of the turnout. I know it may not be necessary to gap all 4 rails, but I’ll do it anyway. I will use track feeders every 3 feet of track. I’m going to use a tortoise switch machine to activate the turnout.


Only you know your own tolerance for risk, but track feeders every 3 feet is overkill. Mine are more like 8-10 feet, and I don't have any issues.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ron

Could it be that you have confused the Peco Insulfrog with
the Peco Electrofrog. The power routing of the
Insulfrog does not require insulated joiners in the frog
rails. The frog rails do not change polarity so there
is no short circuit. The Insulfrog does cut power to
divert when points set to straight, and vs/vs so, those who
wish to keep continuous power would need track drops
to the bus from the frog rails.

The Peco Electrofrog frog rails do change polarity as
the points flip. Because this could cause a short
circuit, it is necessary to use insulated joiners or gap
in both frog rails. 

The Peco Unifrog offers the ability to have a
powered frog, but eliminates the need for insulated
joiners or gaps in the frog rails since they are
isolated from the powered frog. 

Don


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Only you know your own tolerance for risk, but track feeders every 3 feet is overkill. Mine are more like 8-10 feet, and I don't have any issues.


Yes, I was thinking every 3 feet might be overkill. I think I will make that bigger. Thanks.


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

DonR said:


> Ron
> 
> Could it be that you have confused the Peco Insulfrog with
> the Peco Electrofrog. The power routing of the
> ...





DonR said:


> Ron
> 
> Could it be that you have confused the Peco Insulfrog with
> the Peco Electrofrog. The power routing of the
> ...


Don,

I don’t believe I was confusing the Peco Insulfrog with the Peco Electrofrog. I believe I was confusing the Peco Unifrog (out of the box default setting) with the Peco Insulfrog. I initially thought the Peco Unifrog (default setting) does power routing. According to DCCwiki the Insulfrog and Unifrog(default setting) behave the same except the Unifrog (default setting) does not “power route“ and hence does not need an insulated rail joiner. My plan at this point is to never power the frog.

Thanks again,
Ron


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

There is no hard and fast rule about feeders. I don't want to rely on rail turnouts as power contacts for the rails, hence I wire feeders accordingly. 3' foot rail is a common length and soldering 2 together makes 6' so that is what I commonly use and either use an insulated joiner or a regular joiner at either end of the 6' and again, even if its a regular joiner I don't rely on its conduction ability and wire feeders accordingly. I used PC ties for my feeders so no wires are visible. I also use the CV tie system from Central Valley Model Train Supply CVT Track and glue the rail to the ties with contact cement. Makes for a really nice system. I also make my own turnouts using parts from CV ties and points from Proto87 stores (www.prot87.com), really like the points but I'm fairly good at making frogs so I sometimes use their frogs also. They make some really nice turnout kits (no jigs needed!). I must say that when I first saw a you tube video on making your own turnouts I though it was too difficult, but I had to try. First 2 were garbage, but after than I've never looked back and the process have improved my soldering skills! Best thing I've ever done!!! I've also used Homasote milled roadbed, another nice product, but its getting difficult to find.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Ronham said:


> I joined the forum a little over a year ago and posted questions about turnout types and reverse loops. I decided to transition from my 3 rail O gauge layout to DCC HO. Since then I’ve been sidetracked with building a ceiling suspension for my MTH DCS controlled O gauge 3 rail trains. I’ve been reading a lot; this forum, DCC wiki, Digitrax case studies, videos, etc. My HO bench work is just about complete. I plan to operate trains both manually and automatically (probably TrainController). I plan to use PECO code 83 unifrog turnouts and track. I plan to keep the frog insulated. I understand this is best if I don’t have locomotive electrical dead spots when traveling over the frog. I haven’t purchased any equipment yet but I plan to use Digitrax Equipment and locomotives with electrical pickups that span the length of the turnout frog. I plan a rail yard were smaller locomotives will operate at very slow speeds. I guess there could be a situation were the electrical pickup of the locomotive range is smaller than the length of the frog. In that case I plan to use a frog juicer to power the unifrog frog. Do you agree that the frog need only be powered if the length of a locomotive electrical pickup is smaller then the frog length?
> 
> I plan to use slow motion switch machines on my turnouts. I used solenoid atlas-O turnouts on my O gauge layout and burned out a few. The blue impulse button they provide with the turnout can stick and that’s all it takes. I replaced all those blue buttons with a better quality switch. Another lesson I learned is not to place the turnout on a grade, they operate much better when level.





Ronham said:


> I joined the forum a little over a year ago and posted questions about turnout types and reverse loops. I decided to transition from my 3 rail O gauge layout to DCC HO. Since then I’ve been sidetracked with building a ceiling suspension for my MTH DCS controlled O gauge 3 rail trains. I’ve been reading a lot; this forum, DCC wiki, Digitrax case studies, videos, etc. My HO bench work is just about complete. I plan to operate trains both manually and automatically (probably TrainController). I plan to use PECO code 83 unifrog turnouts and track. I plan to keep the frog insulated. I understand this is best if I don’t have locomotive electrical dead spots when traveling over the frog. I haven’t purchased any equipment yet but I plan to use Digitrax Equipment and locomotives with electrical pickups that span the length of the turnout frog. I plan a rail yard were smaller locomotives will operate at very slow speeds. I guess there could be a situation were the electrical pickup of the locomotive range is smaller than the length of the frog. In that case I plan to use a frog juicer to power the unifrog frog. Do you agree that the frog need only be powered if the length of a locomotive electrical pickup is smaller then the frog length?
> 
> I plan to use slow motion switch machines on my turnouts. I used solenoid atlas-O turnouts on my O gauge layout and burned out a few. The blue impulse button they provide with the turnout can stick and that’s all it takes. I replaced all those blue buttons with a better quality switch. Another lesson I learned is not to place the turnout on a grade, they operate much better when level.


Ronham;

The general consensus is that leaving frogs unpowered does no harm when locomotives have all-wheel electrical pickup. I recognize that an all-wheel pickup loco will typically glide right through a turnout with a plastic, or unpowered metal, frog.
I power my frogs anyway. My counter to the prevailing "wisdom" is this. What harm will it do TO POWER the frog? I'm a firm believer in the idea that there's no such thing as too reliable a power delivery system to the locomotives on any model railroad. 

So why would someone chose to leave a dead piece of unpowered rail (albeit a short one) on their model railroad? 
Powering frogs does require more work than not doing so. However, in an age where a Unifrog turnout comes with a factory-installed frog powering wire, Tortoise slow-action switch motors come with Micro-switches factory-installed, and frog juicers can eliminate the need for a switch-machine-operated micro-switch altogether, the "extra work" involved is minimal, to say the least, just hook up a few wires. One from the frog wire to the Tortoise, and one from the Tortoise to each of your bus wires or power feeders.

The Peco Unifrog turnouts have an unusual composite frog, part plastic, and part metal. Only the tip of the frog point is metal, rather than the whole frog, like the earlier Peco Electrofrog had. This helps eliminate the problem of spanning two rail tips of different electrical polarities that can happen on some turnouts. Worn out, (or worse filed down) plastic frog tips on some Atlas turnouts are a classic example, and the reason behind the old "nail polish fix." As DonR said, this frog construction also eliminates the need for insulated joiners on the frog rails.

I have several Peco "code 55" Unifrogs on my N-scale layout, and I like them fine, except for one odd thing, the double rail base. I don't think you will have that on HO-scale code 83 Peco Unifrogs though. Except for that one oddity, they are excellent turnouts.

So are Micro Engineering turnouts. These come with all-metal, isolated, frogs, which IMHO should be powered. As with the Peco Unifrog, a frog-powering wire is included. 
The one drawback of Micro Engineering turnouts is lack of selection. They come in # 6 right & # 6 left only. Well, in HO they also offer a # 5 compressed yard ladder, but that's all.
Not really a problem for me, since all turnouts don't have to be the same brand, and most of mine are scratch-built anyway, including the compressed yard ladder that Micro Engineering doesn't offer in N-scale.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Ronham;
> 
> The general consensus is that leaving frogs unpowered does no harm when locomotives have all-wheel electrical pickup. I recognize that an all-wheel pickup loco will typically glide right through a turnout with a plastic, or unpowered metal, frog.
> I power my frogs anyway. My counter to the prevailing "wisdom" is this. What harm will it do TO POWER the frog? I'm a firm believer in the idea that there's no such thing as too reliable a power delivery system to the locomotives on any model railroad.
> ...


Hi Traction,

I got tons of information from you over a year ago, I really appreciate it. I got side tracked a little but now I'm ready to go. You are the one that pointed me to peco. The main reason I don't want to power the frog, right now at least, is my ignorance. I plan on using the new peco unifrog with that optional frog powering wire dangling below the bench work. I agree with you, if it is there then do. But I want to take it one step at a time until I build some confidence. The amount of equipment available is mind blowing to me right now. I also plan on using Train Controller software. Too much to learn about. Again thanks for all your help and those valuable PDF files you sent me over a year ago.

Ron


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Ronham said:


> Hi Traction,
> 
> I got tons of information from you over a year ago, I really appreciate it. I got side tracked a little but now I'm ready to go. You are the one that pointed me to peco. The main reason I don't want to power the frog, right now at least, is my ignorance. I plan on using the new peco unifrog with that optional frog powering wire dangling below the bench work. I agree with you, if it is there then do. But I want to take it one step at a time until I build some confidence. The amount of equipment available is mind blowing to me right now. I also plan on using Train Controller software. Too much to learn about. Again thanks for all your help and those valuable PDF files you sent me over a year ago.
> 
> Ron


Ronham;

You're quite welcome. If the files helped you, well that's why I wrote them.

You are wise to take things one step at a time.
If you are using recent-production locomotives, they probably have all-wheel electrical pickup, which means they shouldn't need a powered frog. Still, I think you are wise to keep that option open by routing the frog-powering wire down below the table. I suggest soldering it to a small terminal lug, screwing the lug to the bottom of your layout, to protect the wire from being accidentally snagged, and pulled completely out . This sort of thing usually happens after you have installed and ballasted that turnout, and at least a few yards of each track connected to it. Its just loads of fun tearing out the turnout and restoring the wire, which you have now decided to use.
Also mark the wire's function next to the lug. ("turnout # 5 frog" or whatever.) Long down the road, you may decide to power your frogs, and its a great help to know what each wire under your layout does.

I have a tendency to "improve" my earlier work by "do overs" (a common mental disorder among model railroaders 😄)
In the process, I have often found some "mystery wires" whose function eluded me long after their original installation. This has made me a bit anal about marking everything. To see just how anal, click on the printed title below the photo, ["Cliff & Mansion 2"]
Then look at the lower right bottom area of the section of my layout in the photo. You will see a white area with some terminals and wiring. If you move your cursor (now showing as a + sign) over that area, and click again, it will enlarge the view of the terminal strip and labeling. BTW, That's the kind of terminal lug I was suggesting, except with only one or two lugs, instead of a dozen.

Keep Having Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Ronham;
> 
> You're quite welcome. If the files helped you, well that's why I wrote them.
> 
> ...


Traction Fan,

Thanks for the tip, I will definitely label those wires. I wasn’t even thinking about doing that. I should have learned my lesson from my last O gauge layout. It’s amazing how fast the amount of wiring grows. I didn’t even color code, what a mistake. I do plan to color code this time. But, didn’t think about labeling, but I now plan to label extensively.

I just bought some HO code 83 track from Train World. Next will be Digitrax DCS240, power supply, some Peco Unifrog turnouts and at least one locomotive. Still need to add the table top to my benchwork. My new train room has two of my MTH O gauge trains running from a ceiling suspension I completed a few months ago.

Thanks again,
Ron


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Ronham said:


> Traction Fan,
> 
> Thanks for the tip, I will definitely label those wires. I wasn’t even thinking about doing that. I should have learned my lesson from my last O gauge layout. It’s amazing how fast the amount of wiring grows. I didn’t even color code, what a mistake. I do plan to color code this time. But, didn’t think about labeling, but I now plan to label extensively.
> 
> ...


Ron;

Maybe you already planned on this, but just in case not. Run bus wires for DCC under your layout. 16-14 Ga. one red & one black is the normal setup. You can solder smaller 24-28 Ga. feeder wires to the rails of your new flex track and run them down to the bus wires. Every six -ten feet is common practice. Being a retired chaser of electrical faults, I solder a feeder to each, and every rail. That way if/when rail joiners corrode, it won't affect power to the rails. Note that any rails soldered together can be considered one rail. I solder rail joiners on curved track (before curving it) but leave some joiners unsoldered on straight track to allow for expansion/contraction of the wood roadbed under the track.

Some prefer to solder the feeders to the bottom of the rail before the track is installed. The advantage of this method is that the feeders will be invisible. The disadvantages are the need to form curves before soldering the wires, and sometimes difficulty in drilling holes for these feeders in exactly the right spot.

I just lay the track first, and solder the feeders to the outside of the rails later. This is easier to do, and when the track is painted & ballasted the feeders are not obvious. The turnout in the photo is one of my scratchbuilt code 55 N-scale turnouts. The white wire is connected to the frog, and hanging out where its easy to see, but can you see the other two feeders?

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Ron;
> 
> Maybe you already planned on this, but just in case not. Run bus wires for DCC under your layout. 16-14 Ga. one red & one black is the normal setup. You can solder smaller 24-28 Ga. feeder wires to the rails of your new flex track and run them down to the bus wires. Every six -ten feet is common practice. Being a retired chaser of electrical faults, I solder a feeder to each, and every rail. That way if/when rail joiners corrode, it won't affect power to the rails. Note that any rails soldered together can be considered one rail. I solder rail joiners on curved track (before curving it) but leave some joiners unsoldered on straight track to allow for expansion/contraction of the wood roadbed under the track.
> 
> ...


Traction Fan,

Yes, I’m going to view electrical wiring as most important. I bought “Basic DCC Wiring” by Polsgrove. You recommended this to me last year. On my O gauge layout I soldered my feeders to the metal rail connectors. I plan to do this again with the HO rail connectors. If I solder to the rail, I need to get a different soldering iron. The one I have is this high powered Weller iron with a pistol type grip. If I solder to the rail I think I need one of those pencil grip, pointed tip irons. If I use a pointed tip iron I need to practice a little. I don’t want to start melting ties 🙂.

Thanks,
Ron


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Ronham said:


> Traction Fan,
> 
> Yes, I’m going to view electrical wiring as most important. I bought “Basic DCC Wiring” by Polsgrove. You recommended this to me last year. On my O gauge layout I soldered my feeders to the metal rail connectors. I plan to do this again with the HO rail connectors. If I solder to the rail, I need to get a different soldering iron. The one I have is this high powered Weller iron with a pistol type grip. If I solder to the rail I think I need one of those pencil grip, pointed tip irons. If I use a pointed tip iron I need to practice a little. I don’t want to start melting ties 🙂.
> 
> ...


Ron;

That's a good book. 
Using rail joiners as a place to solder feeder wires is something I don't recommend. You can't rely on the joiner feeding power from the wire to the rails reliably. Pre-soldered rail joiners & feeder wires are commercially available, but they are basically a way to weasel out of learning how to solder, something you already know. They can also fail, and do.

In my opinion, a rail joiner is a mechanical connector that should be used only to keep the two rail ends that it joins in physical alignment. Now of course, rail joiners are often also used as electrical connectors, but they're not reliable. Rail joiners are good mechanical connectors, but sooner, or later, they will become lousy electrical connectors.

I learned from my old club to never rely on a rail joiner to conduct electricity. They soldered a feeder wire to every single 3' flex track rail on their 25 scale mile layout. All the feeders were soldered to bus wires. They never had any problems with this wiring scheme. The turnouts caused problems, until their own three feeder wires were connected. One to each bus wire and later, ( through micro switches in the switch machines) the frog feeders were connected too. I have used the same system ever since, and I highly recommend it.

Some folks solder all the rail joints on their layouts. I solder the joints of curved flex track, before the two track sections are formed into a curve. BTW two sections of rail soldered together can, electrically, be considered "one rail."
I leave most rail joiners on straight track unsoldered. This allows some play if the wood roadbed moves due to temperature & humidity changes. If every single joiner is soldered, such movement of the supporting structure can throw the track out of gauge, or in one extreme case that I saw, rip the rails right up out of the ties.

You are right about needing a pencil type soldering iron for layout wiring. Your Weller soldering gun produces way too much heat for the plastic tie strip to withstand. Look for a simple 30 watt iron.
You can, and should, also protect the ties by using heat sinks on either side of the rail area where you solder a feeder onto the rail. Yup! To the outside of the rail itself, not to the rail joiner. The only possible exception would be to a rail joiner that will itself be soldered to the rails it joins. Alligator clips make good heat sinks. You can also use two paper towels soaked in cold water. Place one heat sink on either side of the spot where you will solder. It helps if you pre-tin both the rail and the feeder wire before joining them. Work quickly to make a good joint but not overheat the ties.

Feeder wires can be small. 24-28 Ga. stranded wire is ideal. Bus wires can be 18 Ga. up to 14 Ga. Both should use a common color code. The one red, and one black, system shown in that book is a common standard. 

I use Kester 60/40 rosin core solder that I bought on Amazon. There is a trend toward "lead free solder" I don't use it, since it doesn't solder worth spit. I do use flux, a water-based type from Home Depot. Another handy item for soldering is a soldering iron stand equipped with a wet sponge in a tray. I made the one shown in the photo below from a scrap of 2 x 4 lumber a large spring, a brass tray that I "scratch built" and a piece of sponge. It works great, and keeps me from setting fire to the house by forgetting to unplug my soldering iron.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Ronham (Aug 24, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Ron;
> 
> That's a good book.
> Using rail joiners as a place to solder feeder wires is something I don't recommend. You can't rely on the joiner feeding power from the wire to the rails reliably. Pre-soldered rail joiners & feeder wires are commercially available, but they are basically a way to weasel out of learning how to solder, something you already know. They can also fail, and do.
> ...


Traction Fan,

Thanks for the tips. I’m going to define blocks. I’m going to run using TrainController software to throttle and monitor block occupancy. So after thinking about it, it’s best to solder to rail. And I definitely don’t want bad electrical connections especially after I ballast. I don’t understand how you included the turnouts when you say “..their own 3 feeder wires were connected.” I don’t want to mess around trying to solder to a turnout rail. They’re too expensive.

I have a pencil type soldering iron, but it doesn’t seem to get hot enough so I gave up trying to use it. I think it’s only 20 or 25 watts.I’ll get a better one with a variable power option, maybe to a max of 40 watts.

Ron


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Ronham said:


> Traction Fan,
> 
> Thanks for the tips. I’m going to define blocks. I’m going to run using TrainController software to throttle and monitor block occupancy. So after thinking about it, it’s best to solder to rail. And I definitely don’t want bad electrical connections especially after I ballast. I don’t understand how you included the turnouts when you say “..their own 3 feeder wires were connected.” I don’t want to mess around trying to solder to a turnout rail. They’re too expensive.
> 
> ...


Ron;

My turnouts each have three feeder wires soldered to them. One to each of the outer rails, and a third feeder to the metal frog. The outer feed wires are soldered to the bus rails, the same as any other track feeders. The frog feeder is soldered to the "common" (Com.) terminal of a micro switch that is operated by the switch machine when it moves the point rails/throwbar of the turnout. This is necessary in order to have the frog switch to the correct electrical polarity for each route through the turnout. The "normally open" (NO.) and "normally closed" (NC.) terminals of the micro switch are connected to the two bus wires. The white wire sticking up in the photo of one of my scratchbuilt turnouts, in my earlier response is the frog feeder. 

This is an old system that I still use. (I'm an old guy 😄)
These days people use commercial electronic circuit called a "Frog Juicer" to perform the same function.
Once you have a little experience at soldering feed wires to rails using heat sinks, you don't need to worry about soldering wires to the rails & frog of a turnout. You will be able to treat them just like any other other piece of rail. After all, my scratchbuilt turnouts have all their rails soldered to the PC ties under them, with no overheat problems. I use a 30 watt, simple, cheap, pencil type soldering iron.
You are right about 25 watt irons, they don't produce enough heat. I would consider 40 watts the very maximum for track work. Some use temperature-controlled soldering stations. These will certainly work, but are way more expensive, and not very portable. Speaking of portability, I have tried several battery-powered "soldering irons" over the years, and never found one that could do much more than barely melt a piece of solder! I did not find one that was any use whatever for really soldering anything.

Many commercial turnouts available today have isolated metal frogs that can be powered. The club used the older Walthers/Shinohara turnouts which had metal frogs, but the frogs were not "isolated" meaning electrically insulated from all the other rails of the turnout. This was before DCC came onto the scene.

I have not seen the new design Walthers turnouts, but I believe they have isolated frogs. I know, from using them, that both Micro Engineering, and the new Peco "Unifrog", turnouts have isolated metal frogs, and they even have the frog power feeder factory-installed. An isolated frog is part of the DCC friendly configuration that most current-production commercial turnouts have. Its a nice thing to have if you run DCC.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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