# Reverse loop module layout help



## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I’m to the point where I need to install some reverse loop modules but I’m confused as to where? I’ve attached a pic of my layout so far. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There is one point on your drawing that is not
clear. Is that a double crossover just below
Middlebro where two blue tracks seem to
connect with a brown and blue track? There
may be a 'reverse loop' situation there.

Pending your answer above, I see only
one reverse loop that would require gaps.
I would isolate the brown double track
formed by the brown turnout just right
of Middlebro. It goes down and again
becomes single before a turnout that
joins it to the bottom loop. Gap just
after the top turnout and just before
the bottom turnout.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Yes. That’s a double crossover. The turnout to the left of that double, leading to the crossover and bridge. Shorts the track out when it’s thrown towards the bridge.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You sure do know how to test an old man's thinker. You have what
looks like a fairly simple layout, but is an electrical poser.

After drawing it out using Red and Black pens for left and right
rails it looks like you
have two sections that will have to be isolated to avoid shorts.
Each of these would need a reverse loop controller.

The lower double crossover that was blurred is not a problem.

The 4 turnout upper double crossover is what creates the
need for isolated sections. You will have to wire both
of the parallel tracks including the turnouts the same...upper rails of each track BLACK, lower
rails of each track RED. You will place a gap in both rails of upper track to the
right of the right MOST turnout. (the one to the right of the double crossover)
Another gap in both rails in the upper track to the left of the left turnout.
To complete Left 'loop' isolation section place a gap in both rails just 'above' the 'bridge'.
To complete the Right 'loop' isolation section, place a gap in both rails below the
bottom Yard turnout but before the turnout that joins to the main.
All yard tracks would be included in the isolated section and powered
by the right loop reverse controller.

All tracks outside the two isolated sections would be powered
by the main DCC bus. But, again, it's important to wire
the tracks of the 4 turnout crossover as I outlined.

Let's see if the other guys with younger eyes concur.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Lol. I appreciate it.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

If it’s not too much trouble I’ll need help picking out the reverse loop modules as well. I’ve done DCC before but never with a reverse loop.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You can use any make Reverse loop controllers. They are
available from Bachmann, Digitrax and NCE. Possibly the
most popular is the Digitrax AR1.

The INPUT to any make reverse loop controller is your main
DCC bus. The OUTPUT goes to the isolated section
it controls. It's totally automatic and is usually mounted
under the table near the section it feeds. Once installed
It takes care of phase (polarity) matching with no further
operator attention. 

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> You sure do know how to test an old man's thinker. You have what
> looks like a fairly simple layout, but is an electrical poser.
> 
> After drawing it out using Red and Black pens for left and right
> ...


May I see the drawing with the gaps in place?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I know it would simplify my suggestion to show you
my red/black drawing...but, would you believe that
my last digital camera gave up the ghost long ago, and my
cell is a flip phone that doesn't take pics. Perhaps you
can use your drawing and with a color pen put the
gaps where you think I placed them. Then I could
check and correct any errors. Bet you didn't think
you'd ever encounter a real person with no
smart phone.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> I know it would simplify my suggestion to show you
> my red/black drawing...but, would you believe that
> my last digital camera gave up the ghost long ago, and my
> cell is a flip phone that doesn't take pics. Perhaps you
> ...


didn’t even know non smart phones existed anymore lol. Yes I’ll work on the drawing today.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

DonR said:


> I know it would simplify my suggestion to show you
> my red/black drawing...but, would you believe that
> my last digital camera gave up the ghost long ago, and my
> cell is a flip phone that doesn't take pics. Perhaps you
> ...


Don,

Don't feel like the lone ranger out there. My wife refused to get a cell phone for a long time and still refuses to get a smart phone. She is now on her fourth flip phone as the old ones died or would not work anymore.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Steve

It's nice to know that there are other sane people out there...
everyone I know have callouses on their thumbs.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I attempted to draw my layout using red and black. I just get confused. I’m a cave man when it comes to this…


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I numbered the turnouts. I’m a little confused on which turnouts to isolate. I know #8 needs a gap between the turnouts.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Thank you, numbering your turnouts does make it
easier to place the gaps.

1. Gap in loop track just Northwest of the bridge.
2. Gap just South of turnout #1.

That isolates the inner left loop we'll call A.
This section fed by reverse controller #A.

3. Gap just East of Turnout #5.
4. Gap Just Northwest of the 'unnumbered' turnout
which is near #8.

That isolates the yard and it's lead tracks as a 'loop'
we'll call B. All tracks between these two gaps will
be fed by the #B reverse controller.

All tracks not included in the above isolated sections
will be fed by your DCC track bus. Both reverse
controllers also will be fed by DCC track bus.

Be very careful to wire the track and turnouts 2 and 5
the same as the track and turnouts #3 and #4....that means
the top rail between 2 and 5 is the same polarity
as the top rail between 3 and 4. 
Of course, that means that all connecting tracks to 3 and
4 are also wired to match. 

This is a tricky wiring situation so we must be very
careful. I'll be standing by to correct whatever I've
messed up on. Let us know how it goes.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

The one I’m confused or “lost” on is “northwest of the bridge on “loop track” we’re talking about the inner loop?

If your saying the track that I’m thinking about would it be better to put it near the double crossover. I’m only asking out of curiosity
This what I have so far. 3 out of 4 gaps marked. And the track is wired already as far as the crossovers being the same.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

What are you using to mark?...I'm seeing red
arrows but they are not EXACTLY where I suggested.
Can you use a mark that is more BOLD and put it
ACROSS THE track at the gap.

Yes, the inner loop...yes, you can put a gap
closer to the double crossover.

We're almost there.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> What are you using to mark?...I'm seeing red
> arrows but they are not EXACTLY where I suggested.
> Can you use a mark that is more BOLD and put it
> ACROSS THE track at the gap.
> ...


the arrows are pointing to where I drew a small line across the tracks or the “gap”


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I stand corrected right now from top rails to bottom it’s:

black
Red
Red 
Black


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

If I swap the bottom track to be black on top rail red on bottom, wouldlnt that conflict with the turnout before the bridge?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I see the little black marks...they are correct that's where
the gaps should be. You can have your 'loop' A closing gap at any
point East of the bridge and West of the double crossover
but I wouldn't get too close to the crossover.

The top rails of the 2 tracks of the '4 turnout double cross' must be the
same polarity. They should match all the non loop 
tracks in their 'polarity'. 

The gap is in the loop track South of turnout #1.
Turnout #1 and the yard tracks inside the loop take the
same wiring as the top track of the '4 turnout crossover'...
they are electrically the same, so there is no conflict.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

So since the layout is already wired a certain way. What I’ll to is swap the top track rails around. From top to bottom it will be 

Red
Black
Red 
Black


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Since 1 module is going to control the yard tracks and the crossovers, I’m assuming I can have my 14ga feed the reverse module and have multiple feeders coming off if it to feed the track.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Here’s an updated pics with the gaps more clear. look right?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You got it...those are your 2 isolated sections. Gaps in
both rails at all of those spots are correct as you show 
them in the drawing.

I'm confused by your mention of a 'module'.
Remember, you can have only ONE DCC control system. It's
track output feeds a bus to which all tracks on your layout
are connected EXCEPT those in isolated sections. The bus also feeds 
the input of the 2 reverse loop controllers. 
The output of the two reverse loop controllers feed only the
tracks WITHIN the gaps that create the isolated section.

It's been a long trek...but I see light glimmering through the
trees. Go for it.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Sorry, reverse loop “controller” lol. i can have the main bus feed it. Then multiple outputs to supple sufficient voltage to the tracks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, you can connect to the output of the
reverse loop controller as many drops from the
isolated section tracks, as you
think necessary, For your layout that would
not be very many.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Since these gaps are in the track, I shouldn’t have to worry about throwing a turnout a certain way when operating correct? The controller should sense the short and swap the isolated section to match.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are no turnouts on your layout that would affect the isolated sections.
There are several turnouts within isolated sections but their action does
not affect any 'polarity'.
The reverse loop controller will sense the 'short circuit' when the front loco
wheels span the gap. It reacts instantly to match the polarity and the loco
continues without pause or blink of the headlight. When the loco reaches
the other end of the isolated section the loco wheels again 'short' and again.
the controller matches polarity so the loco continues. That's the way it
works.

However, if you are using Electrofrog turnouts we may have to add more
gaps in the frog rails to avoid short circuits when the points are thrown. What make/ model turnouts are your using?

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I’m using regular ol KATO #6 n Scale electric turnouts.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

I’m ordering the reverse controllers now. I’m also interested in a different “power cab” I think it’s called. Right now I have a simple Bachmann EZ command which works fine. For my turnouts I usually build a schematic with DPST switches.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Quick and maybe dumb question. The “left loop” isolated section. Do the gaps need to be that far apart? In my mind, the gaps would have to span longer than the locomotive correct? is there a reason you suggested the beginning/end of loop?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, the isolated section should be a long as possible, Any
loco or car with power pickup will trigger the reverse loop
controller when spanning a gap even if on the same train.
The longer isolated section allows you
to run a long lighted passenger train or train with lighted
caboose. There is no reason to need a short isolated
section.

If you are using twin coil turnouts you should use momentary
push buttons or toggles with 'off' position. And you should
use a Capacitor Discharge Unit to protect the turnout motor
coils from burnout due to accidentally long 'push' or 'toggle'.
These are available commercially. However, there is an
excellent turnout control toggle that includes the CDU and
affords control of panel and track side signals. It is the
Stapleton 751.



751 SERIES ELECTRONIC TURNOUT SWITCHES



Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Oh yes the switches I use. Are 3 position momentary. Return to center. They worked great for going on 5 years. Plan on resuming them.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Lighted caboose!?!? Lol. I’m not that cool or technologically advanced lol. I like simple.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> Yes, the isolated section should be a long as possible, Any
> loco or car with power pickup will trigger the reverse loop
> controller when spanning a gap even if on the same train.
> The longer isolated section allows you
> ...


the reason I asked about gap placement is I want to cut the gaps in a straight section to avoid kinks in the turns. but I get what your saying.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I see 'straight' sections of track
in both of your reverse loop where
you could put the gaps...just don't
get them close together where they'll
cause trouble at some point. A minimum,
to me, would be 4 feet or so between gaps,
but the longer the better. Keep in mind any
metal wheels could also cause the reverse
controllers to react when they span the gaps.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

so that’s what I’m thinking? Is every set of metal wheels going to make the auto reverser activate? Or no because once the first set passes it swaps and is no longer a short?
The auto reversers come in tomorrow. Their ready to install. Wiring ready to connect to them. Hopefully by tomorrow evening they’ll be up and going. I’m bout ready to start throwing scenery dow


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, the isolated section was set to match phase when the
loco first crossed the 'gap'...but when the loco crossed the
exit gap, it once again changed phase...so the metal wheels
would trigger it in a long train but of no consequence.
However, if the loco or another
car with metal wheels was passing over the exit gap at the
same time the metal wheel car is passing the entrance gap
you would have a short circuit. Doesn't happen often unless
the isolated section is too short. This is why we always say,
the iso section should be longer than your longest 
lighted passenger train..or train with all metal wheels.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> Yes, the isolated section was set to match phase when the
> loco first crossed the 'gap'...but when the loco crossed the
> exit gap, it once again changed phase...so the metal wheels
> would trigger it in a long train but of no consequence.
> ...


Agh yes. I don’t run really long trains.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> Yes, the isolated section was set to match phase when the
> loco first crossed the 'gap'...but when the loco crossed the
> exit gap, it once again changed phase...so the metal wheels
> would trigger it in a long train but of no consequence.
> ...


 When you say “with all metal wheel” your not referring to cars that have metal wheels but are isolated correct? Only cars that’s draw power.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Anxious to hear how it runs.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Agh. Sorry I got off into my adult drinks with the neighbors. Lol. Hooked up reverse modules…flawless. I need to drop a couple more feeders around all the turnouts in the middle. Waiting on some more flex track and roadbed to complete the 2nd reverse loop. Lol. But so far…I haven’t had to adjust the sensitivity or anything. One day I’ll fill the gaps I cut but so far so good!!! Lots of fun. The routes confuse me lol


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree...wiring for a complex layout can drive anyone to
drink...

It doesn't matter whether metal wheels are on lighted car
or not...the metal wheel itself can conduct when it crosses
the gap. But it's a rarity for it to cause a problem.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

DonR said:


> I agree...wiring for a complex layout can drive anyone to
> drink...
> 
> It doesn't matter whether metal wheels are on lighted car
> ...


i have no lighted Cars…all oil and cargo for now…I ran a few trains Throughout the evening, so far so good. Just need to drop some more feeders between all the turnouts but your gapping is perfect!!!


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

*been cleaning up wiring and running my locos. No derailments so far. Reverse controllers working good. Nice n simple. Tomorrow the rest of flex track and roadbed come in. So I’ll start laying down the yard. *


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Always good to hear that IT'S WORKING...it's more
fun that way...keep up the good work.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Well may have spoke to soon. The AR1 for the left loop keeps trippin. When I’m entering the loop just right of the bridge, heading “west” , half the time it resets my power cab. But if I just select that locomotive again, it will move like the loop did switch.
So the loop is switching but it creates a short that trips the power but instantly resets. I’m messing with the adjustment on it as I type. So far been around 5 times no trip. May have gotten it?


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

UPDATE: messed with the little current adjustment on the AR1, made it about 10 laps. Worked fine. Just strange because the only things that’s changed is I mounted it under the table…who knows.


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Also made a temporary switch panel so I can operate sitting down.

the yard will have a separate panel.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, the sensitivity sometimes must be adjusted. These 
AR1 units will be used on Z, N, and HO layouts. They
must be set for the scale in use. You've done a good
job. Enjoy.

Don


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## nsmustang55ol (Sep 3, 2021)

Updated pics. Ran 2 locos earlier. Yard and mine sidings will be next.


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