# help with lionel 224



## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

Ok so I started trying to get some of the trains my dad gave me working again. I have a 224 engine that when I put it on the track it will just sit there and make a buzzing sound. Sometimes it will move but it wont go for long before it stops and starts buzzing. Now to get it to move I just start moving the reversing lever while giving the track power and it will start moving. The other way I can get it to start moving is to put it on the track and keep fliping the direction swich on my transformer.

Here is what I have done to try to fix the problem. 

Clean the commutator and brushes
checked all the wires for breaks in the wire coating
re-soldered some questionable connections
cleaned, checked and re-checked the track

I think the buzzing sound is coming for the reverseing unit I can't tell for sure but when I ran it on the track withouth the shell it sure sounded like it was that making the noise. On a lighter note I got everything else working (milk car, cattle car, oil derrick, and a coal dump thingy mabob)


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*e unit*

Check that the drum rotates and the connections are clean. Thread on the drum.

Also post number 4 here.

The Olsen Library has the electrical diagram too. Not much difference between the 224 and the 224e. You can also reference the 2026,2018,2016, they are all similiar.
Though not a simple task you can rebuild them, by changing the drum and the two contact plates.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

How about the plunger sticking?


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

I got the train to work I don't know what I did most likely dumb luck. Can anyone tell me how to properly oil this train or tell me where I can find a lube chart ?

I am now having a problem with it losing power around a certain area on the track. Its hard to see in the video but it slows down where the caboose is and speeds back up where the milk car is. If I change the direction of the train it does the same thing but slows where the milk car is and speeds up where the caboose is. I changed the track in that area and cleaned it (again) but it still does it. 

The train also doesnt seem have enough power to pull all of the cars I have (the ones its pulling plus the 4 in the center. Am I trying to pull to many cars? I did oil all of the trucks and wheels on the cars so I don't think thats the problem. I know in the pics the track looks real rusty but the rails and the connections are clean. It took me 6 hours the clean that little bit of track so I could use it. My volt meter is in my tool box at work so I can't test any thing till tuesday night. 

I am also taking advice on how to clean track. I am about to run it all through my sandblaster at work. Any ideas are welcome.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

One more post so I can put some pics up


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

here are some pics the vid wont load


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I reference the basic 027 manual http://www.thortrains.net/manualx.htm. For oil, the heavier the better. Lithium grease is fine for the gears.

Your rolling stock may be heavy. Some gondolas from the prewar era are very heavy cars. Check all the wheels for an easy spin and oil them.

The cycling from the e unit may have been enough to clear the contacts. At this point running the engine is the best thing to do after you oil it.

Power lacks normally farthest from the transformer. So run another power line to the far side of the track. Just don't cross the wires. Bad track may need leads every 8 feet.

The 224 is a nice old engine, I lost one in an auction once and it took years before I got around to get one. Now I have 2 and 1/2.

We don't see too many accesories here so please show them off.
I have a horse corral that need attention, some day.

Use scotch brite on the track. A wire wheel will work too.

To link a video from you tube. Alll you need is the video id number between the symbols.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

You wanted pics here are some pics of the things I got working this stuff was last used in 1958


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

heres some more there might be duplicates. I have a couple more boxes of accesories I have yet to unpack. This is just the stuff for this train set, I have another set of accessories for my NY central train set.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Somebody get the towels ready. TJ and BigEd will be by to "Drool" soon:laugh::laugh:

Nice trains and accessories:thumbsup:
With a little bit of elbow grease and reading all the "How To's" and assorted other postsing in the "O" section, you'll be having a blast in no time!!

Keep us posted with picks of your progress and don't hesitate to ask questions. When you do need some help, pictures posted with question often save time identifying the problem!:laugh::laugh:

Regards,
Jim


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

can anyone tell me what these are and where they go? When I took the engine out of the 224 they were laying in the shell I almost forgot about them in my excitment of getting the train working. I can't figure for the life of me where they go.


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

chllngr528 said:


> can anyone tell me what these are and where they go? When I took the engine out of the 224 they were laying in the shell I almost forgot about them in my excitment of getting the train working. I can't figure for the life of me where they go.


Here 






​


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Spacers?*

Good place to go..................

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com//searchcd31.htm?itm=758

They have just about all you may need!

Jim


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thanks for all your help. Heres a update I got the automatic milk car to work. The instructions I was reading said to use 10 volts to operate the milk car but I think that was wrong. I shot a milk can clear across my basement. LOL It actually worked pretty good once I turned it down. I even have 3 milk cans for it. Now I just have to figure out how to make the cattle loader work.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chllngr,

Thanks for posting all of your great stuff here. Excellent old set & accessories! You must be thrilled to have gotten the 224 loco running again!

T-Man ... you say not much difference between the 224 and the 224E. So, does that imply that the 224 DOES have an e-unit?

If so, then Chllngr, make sure you understand the sequence of a standard drum-style e-unit. As one powers (throttles) up and down, the solenoid plunger in the e-unit moves up and down, and engages a little finger that turns a pick-up drum 1/8 of a turn. As the drum changes orientation, current to the motor is redirected as follows: forward-neutral-reverse-neutral, etc. The point here is this: if you happen to be on a neutral position, the loco won't run. Also, each e-unit has a toggle lever (usually through the top of the loco shell) that can disengage the e-unit. The drum is left in whatever position it last held. Forward. Or reverse. Or neutral ... again, here, the loco won't run.

It sounds like your 224 is now running fine, but make sure you understand the logic/sequence of the e-unit.

Cheers,

TJ


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

Ok I have another question. When I shift my train to nuetral is it suppose to make a buzzing sound while I am sending power to the track so I can operate my cars? 
I really do appreciate everyones help, I know NOTHING about these trains. The only reason I knew how to clean engine is because I am a heavy equipment mech and I have rebuilt plenty of alternaters, generators and starters. But thats about the extent of my knowledge. After I get all the bugs out of this train I have another NY central my dad found ( so I now have two sets of NYC trains) with astra dome cars I need to get running. I am going to have to completely replace the E-unit on that train because one of the little wires coming of coil thing is broke and I cant re-attach it so stay tuned.


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

chllngr528 said:


> Ok I have another question. When I shift my train to nuetral is it suppose to make a buzzing sound while I am sending power to the track so I can operate my cars?


This is usual behavior... It is just the noise of the plunger vibrating inside of the electromagnet... With all of the e-units I have experienced, only one has been quiet


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Somebody get the towels ready. TJ and BigEd will be by to "Drool" soon:laugh::laugh:
> 
> Nice trains and accessories:thumbsup:
> With a little bit of elbow grease and reading all the "How To's" and assorted other postsing in the "O" section, you'll be having a blast in no time!!
> ...



I drooling over the custom fancy bulbs.:laugh::thumbsup:

You got to get yourself a green scotch brite pads and clean up the track.

Look in the how to do it here,.... there's track cleanup in it somewhere.

Look for the correct bulbs too.

Hows the cows walk around? OK? I was just reading an article from the 90's on tuning that up.

Take me a bit to find it though. 
I won 27 O gauge magazines from the late 90's and early 2000, for 99 cents. $5.50 to ship. Good deal there's a lot of good articles in them.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

big ed said:


> I drooling over the custom fancy bulbs.:laugh::thumbsup:
> 
> You got to get yourself a green scotch brite pads and clean up the track.
> 
> ...


Most of my track will need to be complety restored. It is EXTREMELY rusty.
What do people use to re-insulate the tracks?

So those lights are not suppose to be painted? It doesnt suprize me if my dad painted them.

I have not test my cattle corral. Its in pretty good shape but I can't find the right controller. I still have some boxes to go through though. I would be interested in what the article says.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

I think I have all the bugs worked out of this train. It runs like a champ. I made the track a little bigger and ran a booster to the farthest part of the track and it tows all the cars without a problem. Somtimes it will start spinning on the corners but thats it. The only thing thats left is the whistle. Where is the whistle located? Does this even have one? I really hope its not in the tender because its empty. Thanks


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

chllngr528 said:


> Where is the whistle located? Does this even have one? I really hope its not in the tender because its empty. Thanks


Yes, the whistles are located in tenders with these older locomotives 

Is there a number stamped on the bottom of the tender? If so and it ends with a T, then it came without a whistle from the factory...


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

well then my father must have taken the whistle out because its stamped with a W. I am going to have to call him and yell at him later 

I remember when me and my brother were little kids (like 10 and 7) we found his trains in the attic and were trying to set them up. It earned us a good a$$ whooping because we were explicitly told not to touch them  Its funny because now I'm yelling at him for what he did to them when he ws a kid


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'll echo Ed's tip on a Scotch Brite pad to clean the track. You really only need to clean the top section for the train to run OK. If you're looking to be more aggressive, you might try a brass wire spindle-type brush mounted in a drill press. Wear leather gloves when holding the track. It'll make quick work of getting rid of the rust ... but don't be too agressive in way of the track cross-ties.

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

tjcruiser said:


> Chllngr,
> 
> Thanks for posting all of your great stuff here. Excellent old set & accessories! You must be thrilled to have gotten the 224 loco running again!
> 
> ...


You must be living in the prewar era. The E was dropped in the postwar. To make it confusing the 224 was made in both. The early years had a straight back cab, later it was rounded.
Olsen had only the 224e listed in postwar so I used it.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

chllngr528 said:


> Most of my track will need to be complety restored. It is EXTREMELY rusty.
> What do people use to re-insulate the tracks?
> 
> So those lights are not suppose to be painted? It doesnt suprize me if my dad painted them.
> ...


Ed was referring to the Xmas lights used on the towers.
A size 52 bulb will work, at Radio Shack. Unless the socket was changed? The 52 is a screw base 14 volt bulb used in the engines etc.
A stiff cardboard like the colored craft paper or 3 by 5 card stock will work.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

I brought some of my track to work and sandblasted it and it came out great!
I just had to be careful around the insulation and polish the rails after but I did 10 pieces in less then 10 mins. The best part was that I was able to do the inside of the rails. I will put some befor and after pics later.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chllngr,

That'll get it done, I guess!

Bear in mind that Lionel track is made from extruded steel with a chromed finish. The chrome offers protection against rust with environmental humidity. As you sandblast, you're surely removing the rust, but likely the chrome in the process. Perhaps this was all needed, if the rust was bad. Sometimes, this can't be avoided. But if you're down to bare steel, be careful about moisture, as new rust might likely be around the corner.

Looking forward to the pics!

Cheers,

TJ


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

I understand what your saying tj and I probably wouldn't recommend this process unless your track is as bad as mine. Some of my track has actually rusted through in places. Anyways my wife likes to paint so I'm going to try to get her to paint them for me.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chllngr528 said:


> Most of my track will need to be complety restored. It is EXTREMELY rusty.
> What do people use to re-insulate the tracks?
> 
> So those lights are not suppose to be painted? It doesnt suprize me if my dad painted them.
> ...


Yes those are X-mas light bulbs.

Is that some New York Central engines I see there?
Whats the # on those?

It looks like your stuff took a bath in water, HUH?

Some leave the track rusty to get the weathered look of real track. Like it's been said only the top has to be shiny.

T answered about new insulator for the track. (A stiff cardboard like the colored craft paper or 3 by 5 card stock will work.) I don't know if you caught it as he didn't say it was for the track.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

big ed said:


> Yes those are X-mas light bulbs.
> 
> Is that some New York Central engines I see there?
> Whats the # on those?
> ...


 Yea thats my other set New York Centrals. I have 2 sets. One set is brand new in the box. I was the one that had the post about if they were the first NYC. I made a display case for those and gave them back to my dad. The set in the pic is the set he played with as a kid and need a lot of work. Thats my next project. Don't worry I will be asking for all sorts of help with them.

I don't know exactly how they got so rusty but here are the before and after pics


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chllngr528 said:


> Yea thats my other set New York Centrals. I have 2 sets. One set is brand new in the box. I was the one that had the post about if they were the first NYC. I made a display case for those and gave them back to my dad. The set in the pic is the set he played with as a kid and need a lot of work. Thats my next project. Don't worry I will be asking for all sorts of help with them.
> 
> I don't know exactly how they got so rusty but here are the before and after pics



You forgot the pictures?


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

track pic


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chllngr528 said:


> track pic



that's before and after of the same piece of track?

that looks great!:thumbsup:


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thats a piece of track I didn't do yet. The one I cleaned was actually worse. I took the 10 worse pieces with because if I screwed them up I wasn't going to care. I am going to do the rest of the track tomorrow.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chllngr528 said:


> Thats a piece of track I didn't do yet. The one I cleaned was actually worse. I took the 10 worse pieces with because if I screwed them up I wasn't going to care. I am going to do the rest of the track tomorrow.


You got to worry about taking off the top coat of the rail. If you use sand paper you will. The top of the rail is coated in what I thought was tin? 
If you take it off the top layer, it will just rust back real quick even from humidity.
Stick with the brite pad. And don't use steel wool either.

Matter of fact keep steel wool off of all RR stuff.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

big ed said:


> You got to worry about taking off the top coat of the rail. If you use sand paper you will. The top of the rail is coated in what I thought was tin?
> If you take it off the top layer, it will just rust back real quick even from humidity.
> Stick with the brite pad. And don't use steel wool either.
> 
> Matter of fact keep steel wool off of all RR stuff.


The reason I sandblasted the track was because I figured the what ever tin or chrome was on the rails was shot anyways. You think there is still a coating under all that rust.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chllngr528 said:


> The reason I sandblasted the track was because I figured the what ever tin or chrome was on the rails was shot anyways. You think there is still a coating under all that rust.


I didn't know you sand blasted it.

What you could do is sand blast all but the top. 
Tape it off. 
You should be able to get the top nice and shiny with the brite pad.

A coating under the rust? Can you shine it up with just the brite pad and some WD40? 
If so I would say yes it's still there...just rusty.


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## chllngr528 (Sep 19, 2010)

Ed, I think you are just trying to make work harder  I'll try the scotch brite again


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chllngr528 said:


> Ed, I think you are just trying to make work harder  I'll try the scotch brite again


Yes the main thing you don't want to wreck is the top of the rail. That has to be nice and shiny for getting the power.

The rest would look good painted after you sand blast them. Just protect the top somehow.

After you get all the rust off you can shoot them rust color.:laugh:

I had a friend who got a bunch of older tube track and greased the tops with a heavy grease. He then let the track sit outside to let them rust!

He had a whole layout like that. It looked nice too, with all the weathered track.

Take a close look at real track sometime.

What color is it?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> After you get all the rust off you can shoot them rust color.:laugh:


Whatcha' smokin' there, Ed?!?!? :laugh:

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I like the result!:thumbsup:
The track looked bad. It's great that you saved it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ohh ... I had missed the before-after pic. Now I see it. Very nice! Hello sandblaster ... bye-bye rust!

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You will do better with the track connections if you ignore Lionel's recommendation and do the following: Grab the center rail with a pair of pliers where the pin is inserted into it and bend it to the right slightly. Bend the left rail to the left about the same amount. I bend the track so the end of the pin is offset about one pin diameter. This puts pressure on the contact when you connect two track sections together. I recently built a large layout on the floor using this method and had to use only a minimum of feeds. BTW, this is American Flyer's recommendation dating back to at least 1961. I wish I had discovered this technique about 60 years ago. I always had a problem with the track coming apart and making a poor connection. This approach solves both problems, and you only have to do it once. If you take the track apart and put it back together, you don't have to re-bend the track.

As far as lubing the loco, lube everything that turns or slides. A 224 should pull a good string of cars, at least 10. I have one but I don't have any track on the floor at the present time, so I can't test it for you.

Bruce Baker


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Don't even think about sand blasting your track. Whatever plating is left on it will be taken off and it will then rust very easily. Personally, I leave the rust on the sides of the rails alone and just clean the top with a ScotchBrite pad. Real rails are rusty on the sides.
BB


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Bruce, in seeing the track, I don't blame him. The corrosion was heavy and he managed to show some talent with a blaster and not destroy the track.
Some people like the fast lane.
Being from NE I despise rust.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

After sand blasting the track, I would recommend you paint it black or dark brown so it doesn't rust again. You can paint it and then clean off the top of the rails. The train will keep the top of the rails clean.
Bruce Baker


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Painting is a good idea since the coating is gone. I have used gray on some old manual switches, but if you like the shiny look go with a clear coat. It all depends on the look you want.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

chllngr528 said:


> Thanks for all your help. Heres a update I got the automatic milk car to work. The instructions I was reading said to use 10 volts to operate the milk car but I think that was wrong. I shot a milk can clear across my basement. LOL It actually worked pretty good once I turned it down. I even have 3 milk cans for it. Now I just have to figure out how to make the cattle loader work.


This just made me giggle so much when i read you shot a milk can across the basement now i want one to have fun with.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Serveoguy

"You will do better with the track connections if you ignore Lionel's recommendation and do the following: Grab the center rail with a pair of pliers where the pin is inserted into it and bend it to the right slightly. Bend the left rail to the left about the same amount. I bend the track so the end of the pin is offset about one pin diameter. This puts pressure on the contact when you connect two track sections together."
 
Bend the track?

You got a picture explaining your bending?
Do you mean bend one piece of track at the center rail to the right, then take the other piece of track and bend the center rail to the left?
I never heard of this. 
I just put mine together and then snug up the pins with my track pliers. I never had a problem with the track coming apart.

But after I am sure that the track is going to be there a while I screw it down.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Sorry if I wasn't totally clear. Here is another go at it. Take a piece of track and hold it in your left hand with the pins pointing away from you. Take a pair of pliers and grab the center rail where the pin is inserted, and bend it to the right. Similarly, bend the left rail to the left. Bend the rails so that the pins are offset about one pin diameter. Looking at the pins, you will see that the ends of the left and center pins are now spread out and have to be squeezed together to be inserted into a mating track section. The fact that the pins have to be squeezed together means that there is good contact pressure on the end of the pin where it makes contact inside of the open end of the rail of the mating track section. The side pressure on the pin also causes the pin to make a good connection in the track section where it is installed. 

Bruce Baker


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Rather than the outer rail of the "bent" track now bending back into proper alignment when its mated to an adjacent piece of track, what's to stop the unbent outer rail from that adjacent track flexing outwards to mate with your bent outer rail ... essentially widening up your track gage???

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't think the track gauge is going to change enough to matter. I have done this with O-31 and O-27 track with good results. If you want to make a good connection between track sections, you need some contact pressure which Lionel's method doesn't do very well. If you squeeze the open end of a track section to make the holes smaller, you may get a good contact with the pin. But what about the track section the pins are installed in? Usually the pins will spin which means they are not making a good connection. Take an ohm meter and measure the resistance between two points on a rail. The same rail, not two joined track sections. Start by holding the probes on the rail without much contact pressure. Then increase the contact pressure and you will see the resistance change. The change may only be 0.1 ohms, but multiply that by 10 track sections, and you have 1 ohm. If the engine is drawing 5 amps, this will result in a 5 volt drop. That is a huge drop, and will make the engine slow down dramatically or even stop. I have an old Mercer VOM that will measure 0.01 ohms, but most cheap meters won't measure resistance that small. For a layout, resistances between track sections of 0.01 ohm can be a problem. 

Bruce Baker


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Bruce,

That's quite revealing, when you add up all of the (possible) tiny voltage losses.

I cleaned up some rusty, old (1950's) O27 track a while back. I wanted to clean the inside of the rail tube in way of the pin connections for just that reason ... better conductivity. Reckers had a good suggestion of using a "welders tip cleaner" to derust the inside of the tube ends. Worked nicely.

Cheers,

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Hi, TJ,
That is a good tip to use a welders tip cleaner. I have one but never thought about using it for cleaning track. I'll try it next time as cleaning out the open end of the track section is a bit of a challenge.
Bruce Baker


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is cool. 
Why measure just one? Isolate the circle with one break and measure the whole thing. The 5 volts makes sense, you have a three volt drop from a transformer and 5 volts from the track leaves about 8 volts on the rails, from what I know.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I wanted everyone to understand that contact pressure is important. Once that concept is established, the reason that bending the rails works so well it that it results in significant contact pressure on both ends of the pin. It also makes the track sections easy to put together and you only have to do it once. Take the track apart and the rails stay bent and you can put them together again without using a pair of pliers. If you do what Lionel has always said to do, and squeeze the open end of the rail together, you will have to do it again if you take the track apart, and the track sections are difficult to put together, and the approach only puts contact pressure on one end of the pin. 
Bruce Baker


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I think it's a great suggestion. Sometimes I just want them to stay together and the solution is so simple. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Thanks, T-Man
I looked for this solution for almost 60 years. It is so simple. American flyer recommends bending the pins for their track slightly to the outside to make a better connection. They made this recommendation about 50 years or more ago.
Bruce Baker


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

servoguy said:


> American flyer recommends bending the pins for their track slightly to the outside to make a better connection. They made this recommendation about 50 years or more ago.
> Bruce Baker


Oh Jeez ... you do know that Reckers is back, don't you? He's gonna read a comment like that and go all AF-headed on us, and we'll never hear the end of it. Great ... just what we need ... :laugh:

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

This is called problem fixation. A person can get fixated on the wrong solution and look right past a better solution. And I am sure the Lionel folks were too proud to look at American Flyer for good advice. Happens all the time.
BB


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