# Alternative to Insulation Foam Boards?



## Single Driver Steam (Apr 22, 2016)

Hi all,

For my layout, I initially planned to use a 1” thick insulation foam board as the scenery base sitting atop my train table. The foam at one end of the layout would be cut to make a gradual decent to a water scene that would be applied to the exposed wooden train table surface. 

I recently discovered that these foam core boards, while a staple of the hobby and used almost religiously, pose a rather severe fire risk as they are combustible and release toxic gases while burning. While it is extremely unlikely that a fire should occur in our home, I'm now genuinely concerned about putting my family at risk as we live in a confined and densely populated NY apartment. 

Would anyone be able to recommend a safer, and perhaps similar, alternative to the insulation boards to create that 1 inch thick base for a majority of the layout? I’m a new modeler and only experimented with 2 dioramas on foam core, so my confidence unfortunately lies with that. A similar material would be very ideal.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

plastic ( a general term which includes thing like poly foam boards, nylon rugs, furniture coverings, cups and dishes) gives off toxic fumes and depletes oxygen when burned.

An alternative would be fire retardant plywood.
Harder to cut than foam, but usable.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Your fears are overblown. Just about anything you're going to be making a layout out of is going to be combustible. Get rid of your microwave, space heaters, coffee makers, your range, and especially your clothes dryer. These items can actually cause a home fire. Your carpets and many of your clothes are also made of polyester, which will burn and give off toxic fumes as well. So will the models, most of the scenery materials, and water products. Heck, smoke itself is toxic -- you're not increasing the risk to your family by having a couple of panels of extruded foam insulation in your apartment. Just because something COULD happen doesn't mean it will.


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## Single Driver Steam (Apr 22, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Your fears are overblown. Just about anything you're going to be making a layout out of is going to be combustible. Get rid of your microwave, space heaters, coffee makers, your range, and especially your clothes dryer. These items can actually cause a home fire. Your carpets and many of your clothes are also made of polyester, which will burn and give off toxic fumes as well. So will the models, most of the scenery materials, and water products. Heck, smoke itself is toxic -- you're not increasing the risk to your family by having a couple of panels of extruded foam insulation in your apartment. Just because something COULD happen doesn't mean it will.


While I understand the risk is almost insignificant, should some type of fire happen to occur within the apartment, the extruded foam could potentially escalate a bad situation as it produces highly toxic gas and thick black smoke that can envelop a small area quickly. The product even comes with a printed warning to contractors that any residential application requires some form of protection around the material, so I'm not so sure my concerns are overblown.

Surely there has to be an alternative material out there. Perhaps even cardboard of some kind with scenic putty to create the sloped terrain at the water's edge.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

It's not your concern about fires that are overblown, per se, it's singling out this one item as being the thing that makes or breaks survival in a fire, with all the other things that are likely to be burning and off-gassing that are overblown. If I were to list all the items that you have in your apartment already that could "potentially escalate a bad situation", we would be here all night.

I have bought tons of the stuff over the years, and have never seen such a warning on any panel I've purchased. But you're not building a house out of the stuff, you're using a couple of pieces as a layout; fire codes and building codes assume that you will have a home -sized quantity of the stuff, not a couple of pieces. 

I guess what you want to use is aluminum framing studs, and metal screen material covered with plaster or Sculptamold to form your scenery base.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

OP, your concern is not out of whack. Many NYC apartments are light on wiring and other modern safeguards as they were built many, many years ago. Even those who live in older residential construction often have electric, etc. upgraded. NYC apartments do not.

I do know that the NYC stage production crews (think Broadway play) must deal with onerous fire safety regulations for the construction of scenery and props. The fireproof plywood someone mentioned is mandatory. It is likely that they utilize other fireproof or fire resistant materials as well, and perhaps some of them would be conducive to a layout. 

A separate wonder is if the spray popcorn used on sheetrock ceilings could work. That stuff is fire resistant and, applied thickly, can probably be carved.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Single Driver Steam said:


> While I understand the risk is almost insignificant, should some type of fire happen to occur within the apartment, the extruded foam could potentially escalate a bad situation as it produces highly toxic gas and thick black smoke that can envelop a small area quickly. The product even comes with a printed warning to contractors that any residential application requires some form of protection around the material, so I'm not so sure my concerns are overblown.
> 
> Surely there has to be an alternative material out there. Perhaps even cardboard of some kind with scenic putty to create the sloped terrain at the water's edge.


Well, you know that I am partial to cardboard! LOL


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You could also install several smoke detectors around the layout perimeter and in hiddel areas of tge scenery such as in tunnels and service areas.

You can also isolate and close off the room to the rest of the apartment for an added precaution.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

I don’t think it’s an unreasonable concern. A friend of mine had an O gauge trolley burst into flames once. 

I have some old Blue Box locos that throw wheel spark, despite best efforts at wheel and track cleaning. And what do we clean those with? Alcohol. Highly flammable. I know, how likely is that to start a fire? Who knows?

A few months back one of my RDCs got in a bind and got so hot I dropped it when I picked it up. 

Whether the foam board poses a ‘severe fire danger’ or not is open to debate. I think the situation depends on where the layout is located. Seems that a block wall and concrete floored basement might be safer than a small apartment. 
The OP might stop by his local fire house and ask the pros about it. The usual fee for that type of advice is a dozen donuts or so. 
😆


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

you can always go "old school"

chicken wire and plaster cloth


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm in the "just go with foam boards" camp. I get the concerns, but in the *rare* chance there is a fire, it will likely be sourced from somewhere else in your home and already burning something else that's equally toxic. And you'll be too busy escaping to worry about it anyway. And God forbid if you cannot escape the fire, then you won't be worrying about toxic materials anyway. 

You probably have a better chance of winning Powerball than this potential "what if" scenario.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Single Driver Steam said:


> Surely there has to be an alternative material out there. Perhaps even cardboard of some kind with scenic putty to create the sloped terrain at the water's edge.



Because cardboard is well known for its fire-retardant qualities....


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## Single Driver Steam (Apr 22, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> Because cardboard is well known for its fire-retardant qualities....


If you took an extra moment to actually read my post before responding sarcastically, my concern is primarily over combustion toxins in a confined space should some kind of fire already happen. 

Constructive responses only please.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

So, just to get this straight, you are not concerned by fire enhancement or retardant qualities, just the boards ability to give off toxic vapors in the [often rare ] occasion of a fire ??


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

to eliminate [or greatly reduce] the likelyhood of released toxins in the rare result of a fire , 

first your benchwork should be of metal [without the zinc coating] or of wood elements
then all track should be hand laid with natural wood ties, rather than plastic ties ..
all rolling stock should be wooden kits to help reduce toxic emanations from plastic

all locomotives should be of brass construction to reduce toxic effects from plastic ..





basically as little plastic as possible, from the start of construction and forward, that's where most of the toxic vapours will come from, not really from wood or metal 



and no carpet, or plastic furniture as well ...these are mostly plastic based


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Single Driver Steam said:


> If you took an extra moment to actually read my post before responding sarcastically, my concern is primarily over combustion toxins in a confined space should some kind of fire already happen.
> 
> Constructive responses only please.


This really isn't about snark. It's about a common sense approach to risk. You read the lawyer's warning on the product and got spooked. The point that most of us are trying to make is two-fold: 1) that the risk of fire inherent in a model railroad, while greater than zero, is so small that it doesn't merit anything more than standard, common sense precautions, and 2) the fact is that, unless the foam boards are the ONLY thing burning in your apartment, the marginal contribution of toxic fumes given off by a couple of hundred cubic inches of the burning foam panels to the combined toxicity from all the other burning things (paint, polyester, glues and resins, other insulation, etc) isn't going to make the difference between survival and not. Even smoke from non-toxic substances is fatal: it contains carbon dioxide, which displaces oxygen and does not support life, carbon monoxide, which is poisonous in its own right, and particulates, which cause irritation of the mucus membranes in the respiratory tract. It is smoke inhalation, plain and simple, that causes most fire-related deaths and respiratory injuries, not toxic chemicals from burning substances.

YOU may not consider that constructive, but don't dismiss it out of hand. While it is possible to build your layout base out of entirely non-flammable materials, the effort and expense of doing so is enormous. You are, of course, free to spend your time and money in the way that seems best to you, but wouldn't you rather spend it on something that has a real value?


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## Single Driver Steam (Apr 22, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> This really isn't about snark. It's about a common sense approach to risk. You read the lawyer's warning on the product and got spooked. The point that most of us are trying to make is two-fold: 1) that the risk of fire inherent in a model railroad, while greater than zero, is so small that it doesn't merit anything more than standard, common sense precautions, and 2) the fact is that, unless the foam boards are the ONLY thing burning in your apartment, the marginal contribution of toxic fumes given off by a couple of hundred cubic inches of the burning foam panels to the combined toxicity from all the other burning things (paint, polyester, glues and resins, other insulation, etc) isn't going to make the difference between survival and not. Even smoke from non-toxic substances is fatal: it contains carbon dioxide, which displaces oxygen and does not support life, carbon monoxide, which is poisonous in its own right, and particulates, which cause irritation of the mucus membranes in the respiratory tract. It is smoke inhalation, plain and simple, that causes most fire-related deaths and respiratory injuries, not toxic chemicals from burning substances.
> 
> YOU may not consider that constructive, but don't dismiss it out of hand. While it is possible to build your layout base out of entirely non-flammable materials, the effort and expense of doing so is enormous. You are, of course, free to spend your time and money in the way that seems best to you, but wouldn't you rather spend it on something that has a real value?


I’m not discouraging the debate, in fact I appreciate folks highlighting the fact that while the boards are indeed combustible and toxic, many nondescript household items/appliances can be equally volatile, something I indeed overlooked once my fear kicked in. I find those posts to be very constructive. My sarcasm remark applied to only one comment that came across as condescending when I do not believe I’ve done or said anything to warrant it. 

Personally I’m still on the fence about switching my initial plans away from the insulation boards. That said, I brought up cardboard earlier based on Nikola's "Tiny HO Layout" which makes pretty neat use of the stuff. I have all the time in the world to experiment and see what works for me, but it's good to know what's out there rather than taking materials as given simply because it's tradition in the hobby.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Single Driver Steam said:


> it's good to know what's out there rather than taking materials as given simply because it's tradition in the hobby.


It's not so much a traditional factor as much as it has to do with materials' versatility. For example, I personally chose foam board for its ability to be stacked, carved, or easily smoothed / shaped for gradual slopes. Also, the ability to easily stick things into it (like foam nails and the base of trees) has helped tremendously in both track-laying and making tree placement quick and easy.


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