# Please Have a Look at My "Design" :)



## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

*Please Have a Look at My "Design"  MODIFIED*

OK, I've been bugging you guys a lot lately, and the help is much appreciated. The boy and I have been trying to design a layout, our first. There are certain things he wants, and it's as much about him as me (  ), so I'm trying. For example, after reading about turntables in the days of steam (he is reading train books non-stop, his mother gets them from the library -- he's 9 years old), he insists we have a turntable. So I have tried to make a spot for one. 

I had a first shot at SCARM tonight. I think I'll do better next time (I found the documentation, and hey, reading the directions is a remarkable thing!). This is sloppy, with imperfect lines and turns, etc. I haven't tried doing elevations yet. But maybe, if you can indulge me a minute, you can more or less figure it out. 

The table is 53 by 105 with a 24 by 24 "L" (not to scale here). The idea is mainly a counterclockwise setup. The outer loop is set up to have a 23 inch radius (we wanted to at least be able to run a Big Boy on some part of the track). The middle loop is 21 inch radius, the inner 18. I was originally just going to have two loops (23 and 21), but had the idea of maybe three. In the back left (top left), the outer two loops will be elevated. Basically, on top of the 1 inch foam that covers the whole board, I have a layer of 1 inch just for the outer loops; then I'm adding a 1/2 inch WS foam elevation to all of that, to start at 1 1/2 for the outer loops; and a 2% riser that begins on the back straight should get me up to 3 1/2 by the time I reach that inner loop turnout. This should give me enough elevation in that back (top) area to have the third loop go under the two outers at that point (bridges, tunnel, something). 











So if you picture the train counterclockwise on the inner loop, as it gets to the back left, I can switch it to continue on the oval, or to go straight, through a tunnel, and around to the turntable. The idea is to have a roundhouse opposite the table, but I didn't see any easy way to draw that in SCARM, but you get the idea. 

Now, if the point of a turntable, as the boy sees it, is to allow an engine to turn around and head back out (or be stored in the roundhouse), then it's going to go in in one direction, and out in the other direction, on the same track. Thus, the curvy section cutting across the middle, so it can scoot down, heading forward, and rejoin the main lines counterclockwise.

The other turnouts are for some loading areas, train storage, passenger station, etc. The dimensions are off, but this is the general idea. 

I should mention, this is all DCC. Is it safe to assume a DCC loco will be ok heading back in the opposite direction on that line over to the turntable? Another option is to just plan in backing the locos back out (eliminating the curvy section), and having them rejoin the main line at the switch. Not "realistic" but the boy may have to live with some compromises. At least he'll get his turntable. 

Other areas I see as being a bit complicated include that whole front straight section, which will have ... uh.... something like 12 turnouts. (If Peco made a scissor crossing in Code 83 it would be a lot easier to do this, I think.) 

So... if you've bothered to read this much, do you mind offering me some feedback? Any thoughts at all would be appreciated. I haven't started laying track yet, so everything is up in the air.

Thank you!

Mark


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

You might have problems with that curved track going to the turntable. From the looks of it, it crosses over the main in such a way that would cause the positive and negative rails to connect directly, unless that track actually goes over or under the main. Perhaps a reverse loop module could be used to solve that problem, but I couldn't really tell you how to wire one. Perhaps the turntable could go in the middle somewhere?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

if you do it 'flat' with no elevation, you will need a reverse loop module, but it seems that there will be elevation on the track to the turntable, no crossings are shown on the left side where the turntable track goes over the two other tracks, diagram just shows flex..just guessing, but looks lke might be around 2.5% grade from bottom right to where turntable track would go over at upper center??


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

Sorry, I just haven't learned how to show all this yet. Everything will be at the same level at the front of the layout - basically 1 1/2 inches up from the table. The outer two loops will have an incline starting at the back right. The inner loop will decline to table level along that same stretch. Then the inner loop "spur" (if that's the right word), after it breaks off from the upper left corner of the inner loop, will go under the two outer loops, and then down to the turntable.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

It looks good to me!


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Hi, the reach to the center seems quite long to do any work and/or operate. If kids are involved I would suggest something with short reaches and plenty of operation. Take a look at http://hogrr.blogspot.com/ . Another thought is to make it a point to point shelf railroad. This would give you a very short reach and plenty of operation.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mark

Do I understand what you say, that the track to
the turntable does not touch any other track
once it leaves the inner loop at the bottom
of the drawing? If it does touch any other
track you would need a reverse controller
and insulated joiners to isolate that track,
in possibly 2 or more places.

Depending on how your turntable is wired
you may need one for it also.

With DCC it's normal to have 2 locomotives
running in opposite directions on the same
track. You ought to have passing sidings
so they can avoid nuzzling each other tho.

Sure would be helpful if that drawing was in
color so it would be easier to follow which tracks
are connected and which are over or under.

Don


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Tim, yes it is a bit of a reach. Best I could do with the space, basically. The table is on wheels and can be moved around, so I can get behind it. And if I stand on a little stool, I can reach across. Kids won't be doing much without me present, at least for a while. 

Don, yes, you are correct, the track to the turntable does not touch any other track after it leaves the inner loop -- although at the top of the drawing, not bottom. It's counterclockwise; at that upper right inner loop curve, a switch will break off and head to the turntable. There, the engine will turn around and head back on the same track, and then use a separate switch to head back down that curvy section to the front part of the track. The idea is that, then when it rejoins the inner loop there toward the front, it can either continue around that loop (and onto other loops or whatever), or it can then back into a siding and pick up cars. That's the idea anyway. 

I tried to make the tracks color coded, btw, and couldn't figure out how to do it. Will try again. 

Thanks!

Mark


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'll try again. It takes a little time to
work information into my tattered old skull.

So I look at the top of the inner loop. Near
the left curves.

What appears to me is a L turnout toe to toe with an R.
The L diverts to the turntable track. The R 
diverts to the S track that goes down and
connects thru an R turnout to the inner loop at
the bottom.

The S section creates a Reverse loop and would need
to be isolated and have a reverse loop controller.

Are we close enuf for government work?

Don


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

DonR said:


> I'll try again. It takes a little time to
> work information into my tattered old skull.
> 
> So I look at the top of the inner loop. Near
> ...


Even in DCC setup?


Edit: OK, guess I see what you mean now. If the outside (right) was red and the inside (left) was black (example) for the ovals, then it would remain so for the track to the turntable, then as the engine came back the outside (left) would be red and the inside (right) would be black; but when it hits the "S", if the S is the same polarity as the loops, then it would short, as the "outside" (left) would now be black. Hm. Dang. 

Back to the drawing board (not sure I want to get into reverse loops quite yet). 

Thank you!

Mark


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

OK, for those patient and kind people still willing to spend time on this...

First, I did learn a tiny bit more about using SCARM. At least now my tracks are in color. I tried working on elevations, but didn't get far. Maybe next time.

In the meantime, based on Don's comments, I changed the basic layout. In this version, an engine (having uncoupled down in the sidings) can take a switch in the upper left, on the green track, and head down to the turntable. Engines would then have to back out on the same track and rejoin the green line at the same point (and continue around and pick up a train from the sidings). The red and purple lines would be elevated where the green line (crosses them), so the green line goes under. 

In general, everything starts out at 1 1/2 inches along the front (1 inch Home Depot foam, plus 1/2 inch WS risers); for the red and purple lines, after the first curve (counterclockwise), a 2% elevation begins on the back straight. I'll cut it at the 2 inch point and use 2 inch risers at the upper left. In turn, back down front, the green line goes down from the initial 1 1/2, to table level by the back straight. This should give 3 1/2 inches height in the upper left on the outer loops, as compared to the green, enough to run the green line under them to the turntable. All lines would ease back to the 1 1/2 in the front straight. 

An alternative is below that. In this one, I would have the red line back toward table level as it comes back to the lower left, and there could be a turnout to break off and head to the turntable. Then the engines could rejoin by heading off to the right back on the red track, heading forward. 

I sheepishly and humbly ask... any thoughts (please, I need any input I can get... Don saved me from a huge headache above).

Thank you!

Mark


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## fs2k4pilot (Jan 5, 2013)

That looks simpler. Another thing you could do instead of just having those spur tracks is make yourself a full freight yard with entry and exit turnouts.


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## thysell (Jun 8, 2013)

Its really easy to put dimples in the foam when leaning over it to reach something. The dimples can cause high and low spots in the track causing couplers to separate. I used foam to elevate my track and discovered this. Next time I'll use wood beneath the track and save the foam just for scenery. I like both layouts but a little elevation in the track is fun.

Pete


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

fs2k4pilot said:


> That looks simpler. Another thing you could do instead of just having those spur tracks is make yourself a full freight yard with entry and exit turnouts.


I didn't really know what that would look like. Did a little research, and yes, that looks like a cool idea. I had kind of envisioned my group of sidings as a "freight yard" (and the single siding at the top as going to a passenger station). Not a lot of length on that inner track. But if I used a turnout in one of the curves I could probably get an entry/exit/passing rail in, and do the "yard ladder" (if that's the right term) off of that. Will work on that idea, thank you!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Now you got a winner, Mark.

No reverse loops, per se:

But, anytime you can turn a loco around
you have a potential for short circuit
trouble. It depends on the internal
wiring of your turntable. You may have
one that has it taken care of...let's see
how it TURNS out. 

Don


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

Thanks. Just a question, re your general opinion(s). Of the two types of options above for the turntable, which would you do (if forced into such a corner (no fun intended))? The top one requires the loco to back out to the green oval from the turntable (after heading in forward and being stored etc). The lower one would have the turntable break off of the outer (red) loop and allow it to continue back onto the red loop, forward in both cases.

The top one requires me to get the two outer (red and purple) loops elevated sufficiently for the green to go under them. Not too difficult, but getting the green oval back to the starting elevation before the group of turnouts along the front is a moderately challenging thing (probably require a 3% going back down, where 2% is plenty going up). I can play with the elevation of the turntable area, as well.

Thanks!

Mark


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## DT&I (Dec 6, 2013)

I like the pretty colors


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## thysell (Jun 8, 2013)

Hi Mark,

I would go with the second choice. You may want to run your trains in opposite directions. In my layout I did the cross over and ended up with 2.5% - 2.6% grades some of which are on curves. Small steam engines can only pull a few cars up these grades before the wheels start to slip. 

Elevation is cool and you could have the two outer tracks raise up a bit on the far side. You might want to break up the long straights with some slight curves. Think of the tracks winding their way through the terrain to follow the easiest path while gaining or loosing elevation. 

You might want to create a bigger yard as mentioned before. People here can give you some good ideas. 

I'm just getting back into model railroading so I'm just trying to highlight the mistakes I am making. The information is here to tell me some things don't work as well as others. I just need to pay closer attention to those that have gone before!

Here is a link to what I'm doing. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=19680&page=6

I got great ideas here to help me come up with a neat yard. If you look at my layout you see a lot of parallel straight tracks. I probably should have broken them up a bit more. My layout is 6'x12' and it is difficult reaching the center just as I was told! Might have to put in some access hatches.

Good luck and have fun.

Pete


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2013)

Thanks, Pete. I appreciate the input. I had another go at it. Just using two loops this time. I like your layout a lot. I took your idea of using "Y's" for the "yard" (if that's the right terminology). With this one, the red loop can go in either direction. A train can be held at the siding along the front for a clockwise loop; or an engine could pull out to the right of the turntable and pick up a train from the yard (after a couple of turnout maneuvers). The blue loop can run counterclockwise, and back into the yard, or into the siding at the top (passenger station). 

Any suggestions or ideas would of course be most welcome!

Mark


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Practice makes perfect.

Your latest design is the best yet.

Don


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