# windmill issue



## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok Ed, here is the windmill thread.

It clearly works, but for some reason it isn't sitting quite right and needs to "lean" slightly to work. Not sure how else to explain it so watch the video. basically I hate to very slightly press it forward and it work. What am I missing on fixing this? the base seems level, so it seems like is is related to how it sits on there.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That piece lifts off the top, there is the shaft, on the shaft (near the top) is a nylon bushing. Does yours have a bushing on it?

I went and looked at mine, it looks like the base is the ground and the center rod is the hot. The motor in the fan up top gets it's power from the center rod. 
I tilted mine and wiggled the motor back and forth while it was running and it still ran?

Is the nylon bushing on that shaft? If not you should see a groove up near the top where it would sit.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

See the nylon (plastic?) bushing on the shaft????

Does yours have one?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

here it is


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

better picture


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The picture is a little fuzzy but it looks in good shape right?

I ran back down to look at mine.

I don't know if it would matter because it works when you tilt it, but are your wire connections on good? Are the connectors under the base good themselves?

It doesn't matter what way you hook the wires as it runs and spins in the same direction.

The 2 wires run up the pole, I am trying to figure out what is the ground? I can't really see up in the motor but it looks like it picks up power through the center post and the ground is the base up top by the center pole.
When you tilt it it is making ground to make it spin?

I never got any instructions with mine and what you find on the net does no help at all.
Maybe add a small piece of electrical tape around the bushing and press back on the motor?
Maybe the bushing is worn enough to cause that?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You added 1 more picture while I was typing.

Do you think the bushing is worn?
See my arrow it almost looks like the one side is chipped a little. It almost looks like that one side is worn a little more then the other side too.
From what I see in the picture, if it is worn that might explain why you have to tilt it to work.










Forgot the attachment. wing ding ding food just got delivered.
MMMm very good.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

so I'm suppose to put tape around the black piece? When I tried that I couldn't slide it back on.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Does it look worn? In the picture it does.

Somehow that insulates the motor from the ground I think.
I have been looking for a new bushing but came up with nothing.

What kind of tape did you try? Electrical? 
Just enough for one time around it, I wanted to see if that worked if it does you need a new bushing. Or whatever they call that piece. Though now that I think of it that wouldn't work anyway as the fan is suppose to be free to turn. It turns from the vibrations of the motor to simulate the wind changing directions. 

I don't want to mess with mine to see how the bushing comes off. I don't want to break mine. 

Yours does look a lot more worn then mine.

IS THAT A CHIP I AM POINTING TO IN THE PICTURE WITH THE ARROW?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I tried electrical tape, once around it and then couldn't push the piece on, actually the piece normally slides on very easily and with tape doesn't slide on at all.

Honestly to me I don't see anything worn and it looks like yours to me.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> I tried electrical tape, once around it and then couldn't push the piece on, actually the piece normally slides on very easily and with tape doesn't slide on at all.
> 
> Honestly to me I don't see anything worn and it looks like yours to me.


Yes, after I thought about it the tape would not help any.

Your bushing or what ever it is called, that looks different from mine. But I don't have yours in my hands. I will call it black piece (bushing?) I think that it acts more like an insulator then a bushing.

Third time I will ask .........the arrow......the red one I made pointing to the black piece (bushing?) on the shaft......... IS THAT A CHIP ON THE BUSHING, NEAR THE TOP?

Also from what I see in your picture....at the TOP of the black piece (bushing?) the one side looks thinner then the other side.
If that black piece ( bushing?) is worn out that will explain why you have to do what you have to do to make it work.

Take another picture looking down from the top. A clear one.
The brass rod under the black piece (bushing?) looks to be a bit more worn then mine too, almost like the motor might have been run while wobbling on it.

Tell me something in the video you tilted the whole piece forward or just the motor?
You tilted it towards the fan side, did you tilt it towards the back of the motor side too?
If so did it run tilted that way also?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok..no, only pushing it towards the spinning blades does it work, not back.

I don't see the "chip" so I am guessing just something from the flash or angle or something like that.

I don't see anything worn, or I just don't know what it would look like "worn"

more pictures below but I can't seem to get a good picture looking straight down it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That is the only thing I can think of is that the black piece is worn. You pushing/tilting it a little puts it in the right spot to work.

In the picture above the white arrow shown is where one of the wires go it acts like a ground.
The other wire is hooked to the top of the shaft, hot.
The black piece separates the hot from the ground.

If you look into the fan motor base hole you will see where the contact for the hot is, and the ground shaft.
If I pull up just a hair while it is running the motor stops. It loses contact from the hot point of the shaft.

Try instead of tilting it to put a little downward pressure on the top while it is on. 

It is hard taking a good picture of it like you said, I tried on mine.
From the looks of yours it looks like it has a lot more use then mine.

I still think it is the black piece that is your problem, it is not isolating the hot from the ground until you tilt it.
It might be dust but the red arrow shows what looks like a small chip out of the black piece. Also your shaft has a lot of wear marks on it where mine is smooth.

Maybe someone else has one of these and will add here?
Maybe take some Alcohol and somehow clean up the contact inside the hole on the motor somehow? A pipe cleaner might get up in there? 
But I still think it is the black piece that is worn making it do that.
Try pushing down on the top while it is on and see what happens.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

The pictures help a little.

Are you getting power to the two brass pieces on the top of the tower? There may be some break which you are connecting while rocking the head.

If you don't have a multi tester, it's time to get one. As your layout gets bigger, and you add more accessories, you will use it more and more. A multi meter and a little quality time with the instructions will be time well spent.

If you are getting power, look inside the head of the windmill.

There is some way of power being transferred from the two brass pieces to the head.

There may be some wipers inside.

Something like this:



and I suspect they are bent back. A little adjusting and you should be in business.

If not, put a wedge under the head to hold it in the forward position.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The only problem with putting a wedge under it is that the whole fan motor turns around from the vibration of the fan.
It simulates a change in wind direction, there is no motor turning it around it just turns naturally.
A wedge would work but the fan will just sit in one direction, it would not turn.

Inside the fan shaft where the hot makes contact is hard to see into or even get something up in there.
There are screws holding the whole motor piece together, I don't want to take mine apart until I have to as mine works great. Knock on wood.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I like the cleaning idea.

I would start first with an erasor on the brass pieces on the base.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok, guys I am COMPLETELY confused now.

Dave, yes I have a multi meter but what am I suppose to test? It must be getting power or it would never work, right? 

Ed, just looking at it I do not see the "chip" you have pointed out a couple of times. I am guessing it is just an angle or light or something in a picture that shows that.

Also, I have sat the piece on the shaft facing different ways and again, I have to push it towards the blades and it works just fine, just very slight push. Pushing down does nothing.

Ed, if I look into the hole on the piece that slides on that shaft all I see is black. I can't see a thing inside of it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> Ok, guys I am COMPLETELY confused now.
> 
> Dave, yes I have a multi meter but what am I suppose to test? It must be getting power or it would never work, right?
> 
> ...


You would need what is called a light to see up in the hole. 
A flashlight or maybe a drop light? 
Once you light it up inside you will see where that black piece would sit isolating the circuit. And where the top of the shaft contacts the motor.

If you have a test light, put the probe on the very top of the shaft and then touch the wire end around the little hole on the base (white arrow). The light should work. 
(You have to lift the motor off first.)
The base is the ground, the very top of the shaft is the hot. But like you said it is getting power but only when you tilt it a little.

You could do what Dave says and just add a wedge to keep it tilted. But it would not turn around to act like it is picking up a different direction of wind.
That would take away from the charm of it some, I like the way it slowly turns to simulate the change of wind direction.

Somehow I still think it is that black piece that is worn out. Maybe Jeff (the traintender) has one?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

I dont' understand what the little hole is if I can sit it on the shaft facing anyway and I still have to press it ever so softly towards the blades.

Yes, Ed, I have a flashlight and better yet I have a nifty magnifier flashlight and I can't see a thing down that hole.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Not much to see up the hole anyway. 

Somehow I think it is the black piece causing it.

The motor housing is all tight right?
It does run when you tilt it a little so getting power that is not the problem.
You have the power.
It is the way it is getting the power.

I don't know what else to say?
Maybe someone will come along that has actually worked on these.

Still looks good by the farm right? 
Put a wedge under it for now?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

What exactly is happening with that little hole you have the white arrow pointing to? Nothing comes out of the top piece to go in it or anything. Does the top piece on yours fit tight or slide up and down easily?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> What exactly is happening with that little hole you have the white arrow pointing to? Nothing comes out of the top piece to go in it or anything. Does the top piece on yours fit tight or slide up and down easily?


My top piece slides easily on and off, I can wobble it with my hand.
The white arrow points to where one wire is hooked to underneath.
The brass round part and part of the shaft up to the bushing is one part of the circuit. The ground.
The top of the shaft completes the circuit. The hot side.
Somehow the black piece insulates the center post so the motor gets power.

It doesn't matter what wire goes where, I thought it would change direction of the motor but it rotates the same way no matter how you hook up the wires.

The black piece is on the shaft real tight, I guess one would have to pry it off.
Can you turn that black piece on the shaft with your fingers any?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

No, I can't turn or move the black piece.

I'm having trouble believing something is worn out only because I asked the seller about it working and he said he hooked it up to test and it worked. I'm asking him if he had to do anything special to make it work.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> Ok, guys I am COMPLETELY confused now.
> 
> Dave, yes I have a multi meter but what am I suppose to test? It must be getting power or it would never work, right?
> 
> .


I would test to see if there is any break in the current when the top is wiggled with the windmill head removed.

Some of the Lionel accessories depend upon friction fit electrical connections. The connecton can corrode over time. I found this on my 197 radar tower (I have fixed it, it works great and I'm planning on posting my solution later) and others.

Another thing to try is one of my favorites. Turn all the lights off and wiggle the windmill head to make it work. You may see a spark, which will show you the locaton of the break.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

If I remove the windmill head what am I wiggling?

no spark with lights off, but then again all I am doing is very very slightly pushing it


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

KarenORichmond said:


> If I remove the windmill head what am I wiggling?
> 
> no spark with lights off, but then again all I am doing is very very slightly pushing it


Then I suspect the break is where the head connects to the base. Have you tried cleaning the brass on the base with an eraser?


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Ok, we're getting closer! Cleaned it with the eraser and then I had to touch it to get it started but then it ran by itself for several minutes. Maybe needs some lubrication??


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Graphite lubricates.....and conducts electricity. Try just a tiny bit.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

now tell me exactly where to put it so I don't screw up anything


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

It just ran without me touching it to start it for about 15-20 min. Is it suppose to turn at the same speed all the time or be variable like the wind? I couldn't find any graphite around so will pick some up tomorrow.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That is all it needed was cleaning? :laugh:


The fan will turn/rotate at one speed, but the whole thing will/should turn around on the shaft. It looks like the wind changing directions.
If yours does not just give it a gentle slight push to help it start. 

Lubing...I never did anything to mine yet. But if you look at the motor you will see the disk that turns, I think I saw somewhere that it should have a dry lube. 

By the way mine sounds the same as yours, I guess they all sound like that.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Im not sure that is all it needs but sure was a start! It isn't really running at a consisstent speed but that does make it look more authentic and it isn't rotating so maybe it does need the graphite on it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> Im not sure that is all it needs but sure was a start! It isn't really running at a consisstent speed but that does make it look more authentic and it isn't rotating so maybe it does need the graphite on it.


The motor should run at one speed, yours probably needs lube. It should not slow up then go fast. It should be one speed like you showed in your video.
For the rotating, mine starts to slowly rotate by itself. On the shaft where the motor sits I have no lube at all. I guess a little can't hurt but I don't think the shaft needs it.

Your shaft does look like it has a lot more wear then mine, I wonder if something stronger then the eraser is needed to clean it up?
Maybe a piece of emery cloth will clean it better then wipe it off with alcohol. Yours looks like it has a bunch of small wear groves on it. Mine is nice and smooth.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

When I got it I didn't know they did the swivel thing so if you hadn't said anything I wouldn't have known it. 

The other thing is that it may need the lube and then just run a while too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

KarenORichmond said:


> When I got it I didn't know they did the swivel thing so if you hadn't said anything I wouldn't have known it.
> 
> The other thing is that it may need the lube and then just run a while too.



By swivel, I guess you mean the whole thing turning as if the wind was changing directions?

I didn't know they did that either until I hooked mine up and it did it. I thought all it did was turn the blade.
The swiveling is a plus. :thumbsup:

I wonder if the advertised it as doing that?


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Did either of you take a physics class?

I seem to recall something about spinning objects.

If you spin a bicycle wheel, and hold one end of the axle, the axle will want to rotate as well as the wheel. (CW in the northern hemi and CCW down south)

I think that is how the windmill accessory works.

If the pointed end of the brass has a LITTLE lube on it, you may get some better action.

A LITTLE lube where the head rubs on the rest of the brass will probably help too. 

My head hurts after all of this thinking.


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

Absolutely defnitely not to Physics!


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## KarenORichmond (Nov 14, 2011)

put some graphite on it and at first I had to push on it to get it to go, but now it is back to running like before the graphite and after the cleaning. After a few minutes it tried to rotate and then got stuck and sat there with the blades spinning (and it still does not spin blades at a set rate of speed, but this does make it look like the wind is changing speeds). 

Does it need some oil lube instead somewhere?


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