# Could it be brushes?



## mopac

I ordered some new motor brushes this morning. My #282 has been running
at about half speed for years now. I have cleaned and lubed it numerous times.
The armature has been polished. The brushes were the original ones installed
in 1952. I am hoping new brushes will bring her up to speed. It probably won't,
but I need to try. Maybe the old brushes were oil soaked or something. Has 
anyone seen new brushes improve running? I have had this loco since 1955.
Got it from my uncle when he got tired of it. New brushes will certainly will not
hurt anything.


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## llskis

mopac said:


> I ordered some new motor brushes this morning. My #282 has been running
> at about half speed for years now. I have cleaned and lubed it numerous times.
> The armature has been polished. The brushes were the original ones installed
> in 1952. I am hoping new brushes will bring her up to speed. It probably won't,
> but I need to try. Maybe the old brushes were oil soaked or something. Has
> anyone seen new brushes improve running? I have had this loco since 1955.
> Got it from my uncle when he got tired of it. New brushes will certainly will not
> hurt anything.


mopac: In addition to the brushes I would also install new springs that hold the bushes in. Could be the springs you got now do not have proper tension. Larry


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## mopac

Thanks Larry. The springs are coming with the brushes. So we shall see. I really
would like to get this thing running right. She used to run fast, but about half of
that now. Original brushes and springs are in it now. I have stretched the springs 
some to give more tension but that did not help. When the brushes and springs 
get here I will take motor apart and see how it rolls on the track. Should it roll
without the armature and screw gear installed? I can't believe I have not done
that yet. She gets a little warm running so maybe something is binding. It starts
and stops smoothly, it just runs slower than it should.

The brushes and springs are coming from ebay. Its the guy that sells 10 brushes
and 10 springs and free shipping for $10. I don't need 10 of them but that was
cheap enough for me.


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## fcwilt

A shorted winding can also have the effect you mentioned.


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## mopac

Would that be the winding on the armature?


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## mopac

Is there a way to test the armature with a multi-meter?


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## DonR

Best I can recall, you would set your meter to ohms and hold the 
probes to the brushes, then turn the motor shaft. Each segment
of the motor should show about the same reading. If one is
substantially different, it could indicate a shorted or open
winding. It would be helpful from AF to know what reading you
should get. This test assumes the brushes are making good contact
with the armature.

Can you determine if the gears and drive rods are turning
freely and not binding. If the motor is heating, that would
be an indication of binding.

Don


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## mopac

Thanks Don. When the brushes and springs get here I will check for any binding.
I agree with the motor heating up and binding. I will also try the multi-meter thing.
I got this train set when I was 5, it is one of my few "toys" left from my childhood.
My dad could fix anything mechanical on a car or anything around the house, but
electric was not his friend. I remember running this train on the kitchen floor and
if it stopped my dad would mail it to a AF repair shop. That was mostly when a wire
from the tender to the engine would break. and that was a few times. I guess dad knew nothing about a soldering iron. Last time it was sent in it had been running fine and one of the wires broke. When we got it back it was running at the half speed. Who knows
what happened. I don't want to spend too much on it because I see there are plenty of 
282s on ebay for 40 to 70 bucks and they are cosmetically better shape than mine.
My uncle was rough on this puppy.


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## mopac

Here is a pic of it.




All parts are present except the grease pan on the bottom. She smokes and chugs like a champ.


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## mopac

As far as the binding, I can turn engine upside down in my hand and turn the armature
with a finger and the wheels turn smoothly. Does not feel like any binding.


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## T-Man

The plastic insert of the drivers do wear out, when that happens the outer wheel moves in against the frame. Just something to check. A little super glue keeps them in place.


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## AmFlyer

The engine likely smokes well because you have to turn the transformer voltage way up to get moderate speed. See how it runs with new brushes and springs. While waiting pull out the armature and completely clean all the old grease from the worm gear and the axle gear, then lightly relube them. Make sure any washers present are retuned to the same ends of the armature. The cable between the tender and engine has fine stranded conductors. If some of these break from flexing it will increase resistance, lowering the current. That will cause slow running. The same can happen with the reverse unit fingers in the tender. If they have worn through, replacement fingers will help it to run better.


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## DonR

You mention that the loco ran slow AFTER a fix at A-F. They
could have miswired it. When you get a chance to use the
multi meter I think you'll know more.

Is it equally free of binds when turning for backing?

Don


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## longle

Has this all occurred using the same transformer and have you checked the voltage output of the transformer? What transformer are you using?

Larry


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## flyernut

If you can't get it going, better to sell it to me,lol... All good advice from the members here. I would pull the chassis off the shell and disassemble everything. Check for free movement of the wheels, without the linkage on. Old grease will hardened up like concrete.Eliminate evry movement "group",i.e., the wheels, then linkage, armature,etc.If there is a bind, you'll find it eventually. While you have it apart, put a new wiring harness on it, and check the fingers,clean the drum. A basic overhaul can't hurt it. Good luck..


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## mopac

Thanks guys. All good advice. I have cleaned the fingers in the tender. I have replaced
the wiring from tender to engine. I did not replace with the cloth covered harness. I 
found a schematic on line and wired by that. No difference in running after that. Its
nothing obvious. I need to take it completely apart and clean. I have not done that. I
also need to try the multi-meter on the armature. The brushes and springs might help.
I am not going to bet money on that. The original brushes do not appear worn down.
For as durable as these engines are I don't think this engine has had a ton of run time.
My uncle had it for 3 years before I got it and I have not run it a bunch. Mom didn't let
us keep it on the kitchen floor a lot. Do the brushes wear down much? Mine don't seem 
that short. The brushes could be oil soaked some way and seems that could cause resistance. That would not cause motor to heat up though.

Longle, transformer is just like the picture under your name. Its not the one that came with the set.

.


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## flyernut

I would be more concerned with spring tension than brush length. I've had engines run like the dickens with worn down brushes, but not with worn out springs. I still would suggest taking the engine down to the shell and doing some maintenance on it. Can't hurt it, might help it. My K335 seemed to run pretty good when I got it, but after having the chassis cleaned in a ultra-sonic bath, it really ran well. The wheels seemed to turn smoothly, but after the "bath", they really spun!! Also, and I think someone mentioned it, check your transformer for the correct output.


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## mopac

Thanks everybody for your suggestions. I plan on performing all of the suggestions. They are all good. I will post on this thread as I progress. Thanks again, I knew I could get some help here.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

To check an armature, set the multimeter to read ohms and touch the probes to 2 of the 3 plates. Reading should be between 1.0 and 2.0 ohms. Then repeat until all 3 plates have been checked in combination with another. The reading should be the same throughout. If one is different, there is where the problem is...probably a broken or burned wire in the winding. Armatures can be rewound by hand if you so choose. But you may also find a used one on eBay for up to $15.00. The field coil can be checked the same way by touching the leads at either side...it should also read 1.0-2.0 ohms. Those are even easier to rewind should it be necessary. Amazon sells enameled wire for this purpose.

Minimum brush length should be 3/16"...no less. But considering the minimal cost of brushes and springs, always best to simply replace old ones with new.

Just turning the motor by hand may not provide the opportunity to see any binding where some may exist. Try running the engine alone without the tender by connecting directly to the jackplate plug at the rear. If there is any binding, it will show.

The best source for servicing these engines is Tom Barker's Service Book for Flyer which can be purchased from Amazon for like $20.00. He recently released a second volume which covers other Flyer items -- do not confuse the two books. You will want the first Volume, Third Edition.....here's a link to it.. 

http://www.amazon.com/Gilbert-Ameri...TF8&qid=1433436141&sr=1-3&keywords=tom+barker


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## Nuttin But Flyer

....and if worse comes to worse, consult my buddy Flyernut in this group. He'll take it and fix it for you, likely for the cost of parts and shipping alone.


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## flyernut

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> ....and if worse comes to worse, consult my buddy Flyernut in this group. He'll take it and fix it for you, likely for the cost of parts and shipping alone.


Thanks for the kind words Don, and you're right, I'll do it.....:appl:


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## mopac

A Little Update !!! (very little)

The new brushes and springs came today. I was very excited to put the wealth
of information from you guys to work. I went to the garage and found my multi-meter
right off. I went down stairs to find the transformer and the AF loco. Right off I found the transformer. I have one lionel steamer from the 60's. Found it. For the life of me I can't
find the AF #282. I looked all over 4 times. Bummed out now. I have too many hobbies
and toys. I have rented a garage size storage unit for my toys. It is packed solid 7 feet high. Its possible the #282 is in the storage unit. So it might be a couple days before I
find it. It might be there because I did not find any AF rolling stock or track. I really thought it was here at the house. Its not.

So all the update I have is on the transformer.

Thanks flyernut. Very kind of you. 

American Flyer transformer dual control model #12B
Full throttle it is reading 17.1 acv.

I was so excited to put the meter on the armature and the coil field.


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## flyernut

mopac said:


> A Little Update !!! (very little)
> 
> The new brushes and springs came today. I was very excited to put the wealth
> of information from you guys to work. I went to the garage and found my multi-meter
> right off. I went down stairs to find the transformer and the AF loco. Right off I found the transformer. I have one lionel steamer from the 60's. Found it. For the life of me I can't
> find the AF #282. I looked all over 4 times. Bummed out now. I have too many hobbies
> and toys. I have rented a garage size storage unit for my toys. It is packed solid 7 feet high. Its possible the #282 is in the storage unit. So it might be a couple days before I
> find it. It might be there because I did not find any AF rolling stock or track. I really thought it was here at the house. Its not.
> 
> So all the update I have is on the transformer.
> 
> Thanks flyernut. Very kind of you.
> 
> American Flyer transformer dual control model #12B
> Full throttle it is reading 17.1 acv.
> 
> I was so excited to put the meter on the armature and the coil field.


Not a problem my friend. That's what we're here for.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## mopac

Well guys, 282 has found a good hiding spot. I went to the storage unit a few days
ago and no luck. 90% of the boxes there are marked whats inside. I stay strick on
whats marked. So I only had 10% of boxes to check. Not there. Got to be here at
the house. I will keep looking. Hope I don't lose the new brushes and springs. Terrible.


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