# Before I pour the water....... ???



## jonyb

I'm about to pour the Magic Water in this pond, and was wondering if you guys would do anything different first. I'm not so sure on the color. I had an Ocean Green, but it seemed to light. I mixed all kinds of other colors in to get what's on there now. Thought about adding some black in the middle, but I think it may be too much of a transition that it wouldn't look natural. The dock and boats will be pressed into the water once it's almost dry.


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## xrunner

I've looked at a lot of streams and lakes in my life, and not one was blueish - they're either basically dark (blackish) or sometimes greenish. The only thing blue like you have would be a clean swimming pool. :dunno:


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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> I've looked at a lot of streams and lakes in my life, and not one was blueish - they're either basically dark (blackish) or sometimes greenish. The only thing blue like you have would be a clean swimming pool. :dunno:


Have you been anywhere?
Blue water rivers and lakes are everywhere.

























Maybe time for an eye test?:laugh:


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Have you been anywhere?
> Blue water rivers and lakes are everywhere.


That's not the water you are looking at - it's the sky reflected into your eye. The sky is blue not the water. I can show you an expert modeler video if you want me to find it that says to paint the river or lake bottom *BLACK*. If you go to a lake and look into the water by the shore it will be black or greensih. You are confusing pretty photography with what the water really looks like looking into it. hwell:


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## jonyb

The lake that I boat on is kind of a murky green, but lakes on teh West Coast are bluish, like Ed says. 

If the bottom was black, then the whole thing would look black.


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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> That's not the water you are looking at - it's the sky reflected into your eye. The sky is blue not the water. I can show you an expert modeler video if you want me to find it that says to paint the river or lake bottom *BLACK*. If you go to a lake and look into the water by the shore it will be black or greensih. You are confusing pretty photography with what the water really looks like looking into it. hwell:



It is a common misconception_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed_ that in large bodies, such as the ocean , the water's color blue is due to the reflections from the sky on its surface.
The opportunity to visibly observe the blue color of water from land or airplanes is provided by the optical scattering of unabsorbed light from water molecules, from white sandy ocean bottoms, as well as from suspended particles in the water. The back-scattering from water molecules alone is very small and only observable in highly purified water._
_
Some constituents of sea water can influence the shade of blue of the ocean. This is why it can look greener or bluer in different areas. 


Water in swimming pools (which may also contain various chemicals) with white-painted sides and bottom will appear as a turquoise blue._
_
 
 An indoor swimming pool appears blue from above, as light reflecting from the bottom of the pool travels through enough water that its red component is absorbed. The same water in a smaller bucket looks only slightly bluehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_water#cite_note-1


Clean water appears blue in white-tiled swimming pools as well as in indoor pools where there is no blue sky to be reflected. The deeper the pool, the bluer the water.

The blue from the sky only makes the water a deeper blue.

There is blue water.


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## xrunner

jonyb said:


> The lake that I boat on is kind of a murky green, but lakes on teh West Coast are bluish, like Ed says.
> 
> If the bottom was black, then the whole thing would look black.


Yea Ed I've been fishing on a LOT of lakes and streams ... none were blue. ZERO.

jonyb, I've never looked into a lake or stream that was blue or even remotely blueish - never. Those photos are simply reflections of blue sky into the camera lens. It's your model so do as you wish, but what you are modelling there is a swimming pool not a lake. Lakes are dirty and dark, not blue like that. If you want to model it right then go outside this forum and see what color other modellers say to paint a realistic lake bottom. It won't be blue.


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## xrunner

Here, this is what you should be shooting for. It's greensih/blackish, not blue. That's more reality than pretty pictures of blue sky reflected into a camera. 










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanas_Lake


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## Big Ed

jonyb said:


> The lake that I boat on is kind of a murky green, but lakes on teh West Coast are bluish, like Ed says.
> 
> If the bottom was black, then the whole thing would look black.



The Atlantic ocean is blue too *even on a cloudy day*.
The further south you go the more it turns to a blueish/green.

When adding black to your model lake, it gives your lake depth.
The black is like a deep hole.

But to say there is no such thing as blue water, that is not true.
A lot of lakes and rivers water color has a lot to do with the minerals that are present too.
There is blue water.


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## xrunner




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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Here, this is what you should be shooting for. It's greensih/blackish, not blue. That's more reality than pretty pictures of blue sky reflected into a camera.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanas_Lake



Lake Kanas is China's deepest freshwater lake.
Wow.....you been fishing there?:thumbsup:
It looks greenish/blue to me.


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Lake Kanas is China's deepest freshwater lake.
> Wow.....you been fishing there?:thumbsup:
> It looks greenish/blue to me.


No I haven't been there, but it makes my point. as does the video I posted of an expert modeller doing a riverbed - it's *Black* Ed - not any shade of blue. What the OP is trying to model is a lake not the ocean or a city swimming pool chock full of chlorine, and lakes are not blue like he has _looking into them_ no matter how many pretty camera pics you can find of sky being reflected into a camera. Lakes are mostly dirty and dark. Now admit that the pics you posted are not of the water color but of the sky being reflected into a camera....


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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> No I haven't been there, but it makes my point. as does the video I posted of an expert modeller doing a riverbed - it's *Black* Ed - not any shade of blue. What the OP is trying to model is a lake not the ocean or a city swimming pool chock full of chlorine, and lakes are not blue like he has _looking into them_ no matter how many pretty camera pics you can find of sky being reflected into a camera. Lakes are mostly dirty and dark. Now admit that the pics you posted are not of the water color but of the sky being reflected into a camera....


Did you read post #6 here explaining the color?

OK, there is no such thing as blue water anywhere in our universe.
We are only called the blue planet because of the sky, not the water.

Your right all water is black.

Happy now?


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Did you read post #6 here explaining the color?


Yes, but it is irrelevant to the problem at hand.



> OK, there is no such thing as blue water anywhere in our universe.
> We are only called the blue planet because of the sky, not the water.
> 
> Your right all water is black.
> 
> Happy now?


He's not modelling water anyplace in the Universe Ed, he's modelling a small lake, and a small lake will be dirty and blackish or greenish. Did you watch the video of the expert modeller modelling water? It ain't blue ...

Hey the guy wanted an opinion, he's now got 2. If he wants to use that color blue then so be it, but it isn't a realistic color for a lake, IMHO. If he doesn't believe me then he needs to look for more opinions, but I'm confident I'm right if he wants to model a realistic lake. I could go with a _very, very_ dark blue but the color he has chosen is way too much like a swimming pool.


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## NIMT

Jonyb,
I think you have to sometimes lighten colors when doing "real water" it does seams to change the color to some degree!
The layout of everything looks perfect and if the color doesen't look quite right are YOU going to be that upset with it?
If you go too dark with the base color you will loose all the details that you put in the water!


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## DaveInTheHat

Magic Water is great stuff, I really like it. One thing that I can't stress enough is to make absolutely sure that the area is sealed. If it leaks its a huge mess. Don't ask.

I used oil colors and painted the center areas very dark blue to give the illusion of depth. Along the shore line I painted yellowish colors. I pulled the colors together so that it went from dark blue to green to yellow. It's hard to tell from the pictures but it looks really good. After the Magic Water dried it looked like you could stick your hand in it and pull it out wet.










Pictures here are at the bottom of the page and on the top of the next page:
http://public.fotki.com/daveinthehat/davetown/tugboats-along-the-/

Here's a link to my journal for the whole build if you're interested: http://journals.fotki.com/DaveInTheHat/tugboat-diorama/


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## jonyb

Thanks for the input guys, that's why I posted here.... Since this is my first, I'm open to any and all suggestions, and critiques pointing out what I could do better.

Sean, I'd just like it to look good the first time and not have to go back. The ballast is being a PITA, but that's just because I'm trying to do it quick. There are also lessons learned on all of this that I can apply for the rest of the layout.

I'll go back over the blue with black, then shade from the outside in a couple inches in dark brown. I'll tint the resin with dark green to mix it a little bit. How's that sound?

Again, thanks for the tips.


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## jonyb

DaveInTheHat said:


> Magic Water is great stuff, I really like it. One thing that I can't stress enough is to make absolutely sure that the area is sealed. If it leaks its a huge mess. Don't ask.
> 
> 
> Pictures here are at the bottom of the page and on the top of the next page:
> http://public.fotki.com/daveinthehat/davetown/tugboats-along-the-/
> 
> Here's a link to my journal for the whole build if you're interested: http://journals.fotki.com/DaveInTheHat/tugboat-diorama/


Dave, that looks really good. What did you do to make the ripples and whitecaps?


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## DaveInTheHat

I made the ripples with Woodland Scenics Water Effects. 
I've seen it done with clear silicone too. I like that idea because you could pull it off if you didn't like it.


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## Big Ed

jonyb said:


> Thanks for the input guys, that's why I posted here.... Since this is my first, I'm open to any and all suggestions, and critiques pointing out what I could do better.
> 
> Sean, I'd just like it to look good the first time and not have to go back. The ballast is being a PITA, but that's just because I'm trying to do it quick. There are also lessons learned on all of this that I can apply for the rest of the layout.
> 
> I'll go back over the blue with black, then shade from the outside in a couple inches in dark brown. I'll tint the resin with dark green to mix it a little bit. How's that sound?
> 
> Again, thanks for the tips.



Black sounds like the choice of color "expert" modelers use.
Black will make it look more like a tar pit, just make sure to add some dinosaurs instead of people.

This newbie modeler must have been out of his mind, look what he did in blue!









*Black would have looked much more realistic.*


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> This newbie modeler must have been out of his mind, ...


I agree Ed, because it doesn't look anything like a real quarry pond (that's what your pic links back to, a quarry pond kit, not a real world quarry pond). That newbie should have kit-bashed that sucker and painted the bottom black. Matter of fact, it doesn't have anything to do with a "newbie modeller", it's just an ad for a kit. Why do you think a newbie modeller made it?

--> http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/fal/fal171815.htm

Here's what real quarry ponds looks like - dark and not very blue eh? 










http://www.missourirocks-site.com/StPeterKlondikeQuarry.html










http://www.windsofkansas.com/hamilton.html










http://brisray.com/th/tpcards39.htm










http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22359875


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## Big Ed

I agree with you, not very blue because of all the shadows thrown into the water.

You do see some blue, I know that is the sky.


Lakes come in all different colors, since you brought China into the discussion I will show you 3 from Gunung Kelimuta, Flores.


For you, Black Lake.:thumbsup: Though it looks Dark Blue to me.

 








For me, Turquoise Lake









Notice Turquoise lake is right next door to the other lake?

For coke lovers, Coca Cola Lake. sorry Pepsi lovers.










A Green Lake?











They must have green sky's reflecting in the water, huh?


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## xrunner

Hey Ed, I love you man.


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## Big Ed

xrunner said:


> Hey Ed, I love you man.


AMEN, Brother.

The ALIEN green Lake would be for me.:thumbsup:


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## jonyb

Alright, I went back and shaded the bottom black and brown. I mixed in a little green, and after the 5th pour, here's what it looks like:


















It's still wet in the pics, and I tried to keep the light out of the pics.... Tomorrow I'll drop in the boats and a few ducks/geese, then it should be done.


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## tjcruiser

Did I just see a rainbow trout swimming near the dock?!?

The fishing hole looks superb ... very nice job ... color, illusion of depth, etc.

TJ


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## DaveInTheHat

That turned out really great. Nice job. The color looks perfect.


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## Massey

Good job on the water it looks very good.

I got a laugh about the color of water. Water is colorless!! It is the things in the water that give it color. Our planet is blue from the ground because the blue spectrum of light cannot pass through the ozone layer, and it is blue from space because water reflects only the blue lightwaves again. When you get out away from the continental shelf in the deep ocean the water looks turquoise, it is that color because there is not much in the way of sediment or muck being stirred up. When a ship's props cut through the water there is phosphoresent algae that will glow for a short period allowing you to see a ship's prop wash even in total blackness of night. It is kinda cool looking really. The closer you get to shore the darker and dirtier the water looks to the point of red, black, green, brown, orange, or a mix of many of these colors. Inland waters like lakes and what not have the same issue. I have been to and seen freshwater mountain stream pools that were blue down deep but clear near the top. The water was cold as all get out and free of any impurities. So yes even stream water can be blue but it is not as common. Oh and about 300 yards away from the blue pool the water looked black once again from the algae growing on the rocks.

Massey


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## xrunner

jonyb said:


> Alright, I went back and shaded the bottom black and brown. I mixed in a little green, and after the 5th pour,


Yea that's waaaaaay better. :thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

While we're drifting on this murky subject, I thought I'd mention a small lake that I visited in New Zealand a while back ... claim to fame: it's the world's clearest fresh water, fed by an enormous flow of underwater springs ...

Te Waikoropupu Springs, a.k.a. "Pupu Springs" ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_Waikoropupu_Springs










(That's not me in the water. Access to the lake is strictly controlled.)

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed

Looks great! It came out nice.

For you all who don't think the water you drink is not blue but clear.
It may look clear but it is blue,
I won't throw a wiki at you but will link this for you.

(do a search about the color of water and you will get the same answers.)

Not to say water can't be different colors, but clear is not one of them.

A copy and paste, From the first thing off a search list.

That cool, refreshing glass of water on a hot day may appear colorless, but water is actually a faint blue color. The blue color becomes visible when we look down into, or through, a large volume of water.
We see water in a variety of ways. It may be colored by particles, the presence of bacteria, or by reflecting the world above its surface. Ice and snow may reveal a vivid internal blue. Water itself has an intrinsic blue color that is a result of its molecular structure and its behavior.


Water’s intrinsically blue color is easy to see when the water is sufficiently deep, such as in the Caribbean and Mediterranean Seas, and in Colorado mountain lakes. Pure water and ice have a pale blue color, which is most noticeable at tropical white-sand beaches or in ice caves in glaciers. (Green colors are usually derived from algae.) The blueness of the water is neither due to light scattering (which gives the sky its blue color) nor dissolved impurities (such as copper). Because the absorption that gives water its color is in the red end of the visible spectrum, one sees blue, the complementary color of orange, when observing light that has passed through several meters of water. Snow and ice has the same intense blue color, scattered back from deep holes in fresh snow.
Blue water is the only known example of a natural color caused by vibrational transitions. In most other cases, color is caused by the interaction of photons of light with electrons. Some of these mechanisms are resonant interactions, such as absorption, emission, and selective reflection. Others are non-resonant, including Rayleigh scattering, interference, diffraction, and refraction. Unlike with water, these mechanisms rely primarily on the interaction of photons with electrons.


Read the rest? It has pretty pictures, (xrunner)


http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/5.html


The water is blue. That is why it looks blue from space too.


Search the subject, I learned this WAY back in science class.

No one else did? Or didn't you like science.



That is all I am saying on the color of water.:smokin:


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## Conductorjoe

Nice work :thumbsup:


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> Read the rest? It has pretty pictures, (xrunner)


LOL. :lol_hitting:










http://www.paintingsilove.com/image/show/52302/fantasy-landscape-3


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## Big Ed

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You seen the light?

That is a beee u tifull picture you did.

Here is one for you complete with a blue sky.

*BLACK LAKE
*


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## raleets

Hey, big ed......
My favorite color water is AMBER. :thumbsup:
That's because it's been sweetened up with a dash of VO!! 
Bob


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> You seen the light?


Yea I do! You got the water right but ... trees have *GREEN* leaves Ed! Between us we're going to get this right if we keep working on it!


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## Big Ed

raleets said:


> Hey, big ed......
> My favorite color water is AMBER. :thumbsup:
> That's because it's been sweetened up with a dash of VO!!
> Bob


:laugh::thumbsup:



xrunner said:


> Yea I do! You got the water right but ... trees have *GREEN* leaves Ed! Between us we're going to get this right if we keep working on it!


Since it grows by the black lake the tree grows black too, same with the grass.


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## Massey

I was taught back in science class that water was colorless and due to water's inability to absorb blue light wavelengths it appears blue in deep lakes or oceans. That was what I was told but the explaination that Ed gave makes more sense and also explains the blue in ice and snow.

Massey


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## Big Ed

What xrunner doesn't really know is,
*The reason the sky is blue is from the reflection off the blue water.

*


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## xrunner

big ed said:


> What xrunner doesn't really know is,
> *The reason the sky is blue is from the reflection off the blue water.
> 
> *


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