# Legacy K-4 #5409 PRR 4-6-2 Red Tuscan 6-11319



## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I was at the club today and got to run a K-4 Legacy Red Tuscan. I love this engine. Maybe I'll find one at York. It blows smoke for the whistle too.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Good lookng steamer, I always liked steamers that were painted such as the green Great Northerns.

Bill


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

That's a cool looking engine, Denny, way cool!


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

That was an interesting engine. Here is a little background. They were originally offer by the LCCA a number of years ago. 

There was not much interest so Lionel catalogued them. Still not much interest so like a lot of Lionel products they were blown out for around $500. The last time I saw them Nicholas Smith had them for sale at York. That was several years ago.

There was a lot of discussion as to wether the PRR ever ad one in that color. Maybe that is wyn they never sold. The original street price was around $700.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

This is the one that I saw being blown out really cheap several years back. I was tempted to pick one up, but then I got the PRR Legacy K4 for a really good price and went for that one. Alton Limited LEGACY Scale 4-6-2 Pacific Steam Locomotive #657


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm pretty sure I said the same thing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

TJSmith said:


> I'm pretty sure I said the same thing.


I'm pretty sure you didn't identify the actual model. In any case, what's the problem? Did you have a copyright on commenting?


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Either way it runs great and I want one. Not necessarily in that color.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

DennyM said:


> Either way it runs great and I want one. Not necessarily in that color.


The Legacy K4's come up for sale from time to time. I picked up mine from Nicholas Smith at York, not the red one, for a good price. They have been a little temperamental and mine has been serviced several times for smoke unit issues.

They are nice runners though.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

TJSmith said:


> The Legacy K4's come up for sale from time to time. I picked up mine from Nicholas Smith at York, not the red one, for a good price. They have been a little temperamental and mine has been serviced several times for smoke unit issues.
> 
> They are nice runners though.


The club member who bought it had problems with the main volume control in the tender and it had to be replaced. Not sure if he had smoke unit problems.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

DennyM said:


> The club member who bought it had problems with the main volume control in the tender and it had to be replaced. Not sure if he had smoke unit problems.


I have also had problems with the volume control. It may need to be replaced as well. Sometimes the sound just cuts out and then you move the dial, actually a wheel and they come back.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

That color doesn't look right but I don't know. I would need some background to determine if it is correct. I can't see Lionel doing it that way without documentation.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Bryan Moran said:


> That color doesn't look right but I don't know. I would need some background to determine if it is correct. I can't see Lionel doing it that way without documentation.


Lionel only made this model that color for one year. At least that's what I was told.

http://www.lionel.com/products/pennsylvania-legacy-scale-4-6-2-k-4-5409-tuscan-6-11319


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm fairly PRR never had a K-4 painted that color, I suspect this was just a fantasy paint scheme using the leftover paint from the Chicago & Alton K-4.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

A google search yielded some information but it is still being debated.

According to an article by PRR historian Fredrick Westin in Trains magazine at least one #5409 was painted in Tuscan for use on The Red Arrow line.

In the Staufer/Pennypacker book, The Many Faces of the Pennsylvania K4, on page 118 the authors state that there were 10 K4s in Tuscan livery in the 30's. The known numbers were 2761, 5904 and 5436.

I did find photos of those engines but being black and white it's hard to tell.

Nothing has been confirmed and since color photography did not exist it is hard to tell.

The only confirmed color change was when the PRR streamlined some of the K4s and painted them bronze to match the streamlined passenger cars. When they took off the shrouding because of maintenance issues they repainted them in Brunswick green like the rest of the K4s.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

*This is from Lionel's website*

http://www.lionel.com/products/pennsylvania-legacy-scale-4-6-2-k-4-5409-tuscan-6-11319

Tuscan K4: Fact or Fantasy?
In the 1930s the Pennsylvania Railroad painted ten K4s Tuscan red, matching their passenger fleet and highlighting their Red Arrow service from New York through Pittsburgh to Detroit. Making that statement is – thanks to the internet – much like a raucous family dinner with lots of voices, lots of opinions and a variety of decibel levels. 
Let’s start with the ‘voice of authority’ from secondary research sources: two books by Alvin Staufer. In Pennsy Power in 1962, Staufer states that a few were painted Tuscan but can’t say for sure which. In his 1978 The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4, he writes that there were ten and three of them were engines 2761, 5409, and 5436. 
A number of Tuscan K4s from HO scale to 6 1/2-foot butane-fired live steam versions have been on the market wearing the road numbers cited by Staufer. Not so fast, says an online skeptic: Staufer has numerous errors in Pennsy Power. There is no proof of one let alone ten. And therefore it is not a fact but speculation. 
But, retorts a believer, who quotes the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society as saying, At least one K4 was painted in Tuscan red in the 1930's for a short time. 
I have seen proof, a color photograph, claims a third. At last, a primary source! 
No color photography at the time, another voice chimes in, you must be thinking of a painting at the Altoona Museum. Perhaps or perhaps not, Kodachrome was introduced in 1936. 
Speaking of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, layout builder Clarke Dunham included a Tuscan K4 on the museum’s layout because the rail historian on the project allowed this as probable…besides, it's a really eye-catching paint scheme. 
On that, we can all agree. Now, what's for dessert?


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Something I've noticed. The early scale K4s required an 054 minimum curve including the scale Polar Express versions. The other Legacy versions only require an 036 minimum curve. I think this was based on the passenger sets requirements and not the engines. Worth checking out if you are looking for one of the early ones including the red one.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

So... maybe they did paint one that color.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Seems like they did.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)




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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I am a fan of Pennsy K4s. I own 3 of them: a 1928 version, a modern version and a streamlined torpedo. I was never interested in the tuscan K4 because I wasn't sure if it was prototypical and I want my Pennsy fleet to be prototypically correct. That's my affliction.  The tuscan K4 is a beautiful engine though and you should run what you enjoy. My K4s are all MTH.


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

From "The Keystone"


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Well, that pretty much says it all.

One thing I noticed in the photos was the shape of the Fire box on #5409 it is flared. My Legacy K4s #3667 is not.


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