# My 252



## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

I'm a newbie to the forum, and tjcruiser suggested I post some pics of my Lionel 252. I have a bit of work to do on the engine, as it finally let me down and wont run at the moment. Anyway, here's the photo's. I'll be asking for advise later


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## Robes (Jan 5, 2011)

It's just begging for a little TLC!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nice do you have the cars? Or did I skip a picture?


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

@Big Ed: Yes, I have them. Check out file P1000572. My great regret is no longer having the original transformer that came with that set. It was similar to the transformer shown on the Lionel boxes I attached pictures of.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Looks to be in great shape! :thumbsup:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It looks great!:thumbsup: A little cleaning and lube should do it. Brushes and springs would help. I wouldn't touch the paint at all. A collectable set with boxes.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Robes said:


> It's just begging for a little TLC!


Doesn't look like it needs too much, though. Maybe some rewiring, but otherwise, it's all in great shape for its age. I suspect that the reason it's not running is something simple ... a wire short or something like that. The motor circuit (with manual reverse switch) is pretty basic ... we can certainly coach you through some debug/repair.

Upsman -- Jeff Kane at the Train Tender can set you up with some 22-gauge repro cloth-covered wire. You have a real treasure there. Thanks for sharing.

One interesting note ... this 252 has a motor that's very different from T-Man's 252. Thoughts, guys? Which came first, etc.??? (This motor here looks older to me.)

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is a camel back motor. The switch has an extra mount for it. Mine is straight across and mounts on the frame.

The camel is earlier. Mine may not be original.

Thanks for the pictures. :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I agree, just clean them up a little they look in great shape.:thumbsup:

You can get one of those transformers if you really want one.

Nice set, keep those boxes nice also.
I have seen boxes for old stuff go for over $500, some over $1000!
Just for the box!
Not saying yours are worth that much you never know.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for all the replies on my 252! I appreciate your input. Now, my first big question is, where can I reference parts numbers for this engine. I'm not exactly sure what springs & brushes I need for this repair. And I am also planning on doing some wheel/axle/bushing work.

tjcruiser--thanks for the reference to Jeff Kane/Train Tender. So far I've only had a brief look at the website but it looks like a great resource.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Parts diagrams for prewar locos/cars are hard to come by. Not nearly as well documented as postwar stuff.

You should call Jeff and ask him directly. He's quite good in helping to identify parts. Email him some pics, first.

The 252 electric-style loco was essentially the same as the 250 loco, except the 252 had a reversing switch (manual for the 252, e-unit for the 252E).

When I look at my prewar specs (via tech CD), it lists 250 brushes as part I-92 (or possible I-82 ... hard to tell from the scan), and springs as I-48. However, there was also a 250 steam loco (the Hiawatha). I'm not sure if these specs are for the 250/252 electric-style locos, or for the Hiawatha steamer.

Welcome to the confusing world of prewar stuff!

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I do like the coupler with a slot for the drawbar. That is early. I don't think I have seen that combination before.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Wow ... I hadn't noticed that. 

Add me to the list of people who haven't seen one like that before!

TJ


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

I'm glad my little heirloom is sparking some interest.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

*Going for it this time*

I'd like to post an update on my 252. Since I started this thread two years ago, I hadn't really done much with it other than replace the old wiring. That was enough to get it going around the track, but it always ran roughly, as if the wheels were out of round..... So today I was looking the motor over and found that I'd overlooked something all these years.










There were setscrews in each of the wheels. I had forgotten that when this engine was first given to me back in the 60's the wheels were in bad shape. So my dad took it to work, and from what I can see, had a machinist bore the wheels out, and make bronze inserts for each one. There was also some soldering involved as you can see. It may not be a "like new repair", but I have to respect the effort that was put in to those wheels.










After loosening the setscrews on the two wheels opposite of the gears, the wheels slipped right off. Things were a bit uglier under the wheels and gears than I had anticipated.










And there are a couple cracks on the frame. I'm not too worried about them though.










The pick up rollers could stand to be replaced also.










So at this point, it's time to make up a parts list and get things ordered. I'll probably have a few questions as I progress on this project, so any help would be appreciated. 

Carl


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Maybe this will help.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=769

Carl


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks Carl, I was hoping that there was a reference picture/parts list out there somewhere. Thanks for sharing. That'll make the ordering process a bit easier.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Well, I decided to pull the wheels off the axles today. Thought that when I loosened the setscrews they would pull right off as the other side did. Didn't happen. So, I mounted the axle with wheel attached in the lathe and proceeded to heat it with a propane torch, thinking that a little heat would let me pull the whole wheel of the axle. Instead, this happened.



















Turns out that there was a small gear soldered to the pieces of the original wheel. There was no machining done after all. just some soldering. Here's a look after I separated all the pieces. Note the little gears that were soldered into the wheel remnants.










After melting some more solder, a little filing, sanding, and scotchbrite, the gears cleaned up nicely. The axles not so good, so I'll replace them.










Also spent some time cleaning up the motor. It's better, but I'm not totally happy. Would it be insanity to open this thing up completely in order to better clean the inside and replace the pick up rollers? I'm pretty sure there's no replacing the pick up assembly without separating at least one side.:dunno: Just asking.


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

I have the same engine and coach set. In general, when dealing with Jeff Kane at the Train Tender, you don't need parts diagrams or part numbers. Just tell him the train, and what you need. He has all the required documentation for reference.

Mine is a slightly darker green, with red spoked wheels, not solid wheels like yours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FM Trainmaster (Nov 13, 2013)

Just found the photos of mine. Note it has the same drawbar coupler. 

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=21386


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Too bad about the wheel. I hope you can resolder. Does the square cutout in the gear force a self-center on the wheel?

I've removed/replaced several fiber pickup plates. If you put the forks of two needle nose pliers in the axle lube notches of the fiber plate, and then push the plier forks outward, you should be able to spread the motor side plates enough to remove the fiber plate. An extra person/hand would be a huge help with this.

Good luck!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You can get wheels and most of the other parts for these locomotives from Henning's Trains, Tel: (215) 362-2442


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I believe I also bought a set of wheels for a 252 from Jeff Kane. They were the spoked ones. Not sure if he has solid ones or not.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

FM Trainmaster said:


> Just found the photos of mine. Note it has the same drawbar coupler.
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=21386
> 
> ...


FM, Checked out the pics of your 252. Very nice!:thumbsup: I'm a little envious though. My coaches don't have lights.

And, earlier today, I called Jeff at The Train Tender to order my parts. He made it easy as usual, and I was very happy except for one small thing. He didn't have a set of wheels for the engine. He will have them in the future, but for now, I'm SOL. So Gunrunner John, I'll be checking out Henning's Trains for sure. Hopefully I'll have some luck.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

*252 wheels*

Uh Oh, just checked the Henning's site. The spoke wheels are listed but are currently out of stock!


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

Contact George Tebolt. He has a large selection of wheels in stock.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

upsman55 said:


> Uh Oh, just checked the Henning's site. The spoke wheels are listed but are currently out of stock!


I think that Jeff may get his wheels from Henning's, they have the license to manufacture them.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

TJ, I wanted to answer your question about the gear. It looks as though the square did center the gear on the makeshift hub. And in the case of this wheel, a washer was used to provide the proper spacing. Funny that the other wheel didn't have the spacer though.










Well, now I'm gonna go shovel snow!


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Decided to make an attempt to pull the fiber plate from the motor using a makeshift spreader. It worked! This will make installation of the new wires much easier. I had much better access for cleaning the inner area of the motor. And although I have new rollers on order, I cleaned up the old ones on the lathe. They're now .020 smaller in diameter, but I don't believe that'll make a difference. No progress finding the wheels yet.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ups,

Nice progress! Glad you were able to spread / pull the pickup plate ... much easier under-the-hood service that way. Before you put it back in, take a sharp razor blade and clean up any frayed edges of all 6 tabs on the fiber plate. It'll make re-install much easier.

The milled rollers look great!

Thanks!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

3windowc said:


> Contact George Tebolt. He has a large selection of wheels in stock.


Hello 3, welcome to the site.

I never heard of George Tebolt, I looked him up.
http://www.georgetebolt.com/

It is OK here to throw in a link to his site.
It makes it easier for others who may want/need parts.

I just looked at your profile.....joined 12-31-2012? Where you been?
Thanks for the suggestion, I added him to my parts bookmarks. It is nice to have a bunch of different sources in case you need that hard to find part.

You an O man? What do you have?
Jump in and start a thread. 


*For the Flyer guys who might read this, he has Flyer parts too.
Maybe some of you have done business with George?*


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

I found George Tebolt in the Sticky : Parts Sources. I have bought serveral wheel sets from him for Pre-war engines. I collect, restore & run pre-war with a odd assortment of 46-52 postwar. I have about 25 engines and 100+ cars. Have my Dad's 1929 Lionel set from when he was born. Took over a bedroom for a ``train room``, no basements in Virginia. I have been reading all the posts since I joined and have learned alot of restoration tips


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Hey 3windowc, when you ordered from George Tebolt, did you just send an order with a check or did you contact him first. I think I see the correct wheels in his pre war parts list, but I want to contact him to be sure. The site says "for all inquiries, send a self addressed stamped envelope". But there's also what appears to be an e-mail address. I'm confused.
All that said, that sounds like a pretty cool collection of trains you have. I like the old stuff myself. And I agree that reading the posts on this site are a great help and inspiration.


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

I just send a letter with the engine number and what I want with a check. His turn around time is quick.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ups,

Any 252 updates?

TJ


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Yeah TJ, a few weeks back, I ordered and received a set of wheels from Dr Tinker, and headlamps, bulbs, wire, and new brushes from The train tender. But then work and other priorities got in the way, and I haven't gotten back to it yet. And you saw in another post of mine about what happened after I went to the train show this past weekend! I Think the cold weather is going to get me back on track though. I'm not set up to paint indoors, so getting back to the 252 would be the smart thing to do.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Yeah ... I know personally that the addiction can pull one's soul in many, many different directions! 

Do keep us posted when you get back into the 252. I've been enjoying this project thread!

TJ


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Finally got back to the 252 this evening. Rather than working on the motor, I decided to clean up the shell, So I pulled all the brass off and gave it a bath with soap and water. While drying it off, the finish developed what looked like permanent water marks all over. They had kind of a brownish tint to them. That was a little troubling. Plus, the inside of the shell had some greasy looking black marks that I couldn't scrub out. So I went nuclear and broke out a can of rubbing compound! I had my doubts, but it worked. The strange marks are gone and it removed the residue from the inside also. The brass is cleaning up nicely too. Bottom line is that Im pleasantly surprised how the shell is cleaning up! I'll post a few pics soon.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

That's good news. A mild compound can work wonders. Sometimes it's tough to clean all of the compound excess residue from nooks and crannies, but a qtip dipped in a little Goo Gone can help.

Looking forward to your pics!


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

*Picking up where I left off*

So here's a picture of the 252 stripped down and cleaned up. I was considering repainting the shell, but after cleaning it, I think I'm going to leave it as is, warts and all. 










I started polishing up the brass and was pleasantly surprised to see that the lettering is etched and didn't disappear.:smilie_daumenpos:










On the inside of the shell, someone apparently tried to solder a headlamp in place, and left this ugly blob of solder behind. I thought about trying to melt it out with my soldering iron, but I was afraid of doing even more damage to the original paint.










So, I broke out the trusty dremel tool with a small round burr, and started grinding away. I was hoping that at some point the solder would just break away. It didn't. So I used an exacto knife to scrape at it like babbit, and although it could be better, it didn't turn out too bad. At least now I can get the new headlamp mounted.










Notice in the picture below that this 252 has two headlamps. (Of course they're replacements I purchased from Jeff at the train tender.) I've looked at many images on the internet, and haven't seen another 252 that has that configuration. They've got to be out there somewhere. I can't believe I have the only one!










Which brings me to a question that I have for anyone in the know. Is there a way to wire the lights so that only one is on at a time? Somehow controlled by the forward/reverse switch? I believe someone wrote a thread on that subject somewhere on this forum, but I haven't been able to locate it. There is presently an extra wire soldered to the pickup shoe that I assume was for the lights. But I'm not 100% sure since this loco didn't have a light on it when it came into my possession. 

Carl


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Frame looks great! Did you add a little primer (or paint) to the inside of the shell where you ground out the old solder? Don't want rust getting in there.

A reverse unit simply reroutes the "direction" of elec current through the wires going to the elec field (or armature, depending on how the motor is wired). With that, I'm not sure if there's an easy way to send elec current to just one light or the other light, depending on the e-unit cycle.

I'll have to think about that further, though ... it would be a neat feature for you to add!

Nice work!!!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I wouldn't paint that either, it looks great!

There's obviously a way to run the lights directionally, but you may have to add some non-stock parts to do the job.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's my wiring diagram showing how the manual switch works ... here, on a motor that flips current through the field coil; however, a motor could be wired to flip current through the armature, too. (It depends on what's grounded to the frame.)

Perhaps this will spark some ideas on the dual headlights. Diodes somewhere, maybe???

TJ


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

*Still at it!*

Been away from the forum for a few days, but I have made a little progress on the 252. Some good, some a bit discouraging. 

But first off, let me reply to tj, and pass on that I did in fact primer the inside of the shell over the formerly soldered area. It made for a good cover up of the bare metal and actually doesn't look that bad. And also thanks to you and gunrunner john for the wiring diagrams. But as you'll see in the pics below, I may have to go with just one light.

So anyway, Saturday, I finally got a chance to put a little time into the locomotive. I started with rewiring. I learned that stripping that cloth covered 22 gauge wire neatly with the tools I have available to me was not easy. I ended up using an exacto knife. Carefully!










At this point I gave it a quick bench test, and the motor runs fine. That's the good news. Then I started to change the wire on the pick up shoe....










I must have handled that thing a hundred times since I removed it from the motor, but it just sort of fell apart when I touched a soldering iron it. Oh well, time for another order! hwell:

So then I thought that I'd check to see how much clearance that I would have between my new headlamp and the forward/reverse switch. Not much as you can see. I think with a little tweaking I can get it to work, but I'm really having doubts that my 252 ever actually had two headlamps. I notice that quite a few have a whistle in the hole by the switch. Mine never did.
Anyone have any info on this?










But it wasn't all bad. I remounted some of the trim to get an idea how the finished project will look. I'm pretty happy with how it's looking.









I still think it looks better with two lights!


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

upsman55 said:


> So here's a picture of the 252 stripped down and cleaned up. I was considering repainting the shell, but after cleaning it, I think I'm going to leave it as is, warts and all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps you could try making it so the direction switch completes the circuit to one light, but then breaks it to the other. So basically turning one side on will turn off the other.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Looking very nice! Sorry about the broken fiber pickup plate. Are repros readily available in that size?

I have to ask: What's up with the screw thread / nut on the back of your light? That doesn't look original at all to me. In looking at other 'net pics of 252's, I see nothing like that. Thoughts?

TJ


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

The screw and two nuts came with the headlamp. Inside, there is a threaded brass socket for the light of course, and two insulated washers, one which you can see in the pic. I just fit all the parts together the way it seemed they should go. But you have roused my curiosity tj. I have to go back and look at some images of other 252's. I'm pretty sure I've seen them out there with a similar set up.


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## 3windowc (Dec 31, 2012)

Your headlight is correct. There were 2 styles. The Strap style like you have was early. The feed wire came up through a hole in the body right behind the light. The Cast style used later had a bulb contacr on a fiber board that came through a slot in the body under the light.


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

3windowc said:


> Your headlight is correct. There were 2 styles. The Strap style like you have was early. The feed wire came up through a hole in the body right behind the light. The Cast style used later had a bulb contacr on a fiber board that came through a slot in the body under the light.


Ok,so they actually did put two strap lights on some 252s. I was beginning to think Lionel made some sort of mistake with the shells! But looking closely at the slots where the strap lights fit, you can see a slight indentation in the paint where the old ones were mounted. And as for my forward/reverse switch interfering with the headlamp,I may take another look at it to see if there is some adjustment I can make to reduce the travel.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Interesting info on the light.

Do you need all of that threaded length? Is there a way to thread the screw further into the light? Or trim it a couple of threads?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

To keep you from guessing about the vintage of your 252, you have the 252 Type III, issued 1926 and carried over until 1928. It is the only type that has dual lights, versus the other Types which don't have this arrangement.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Good post, Doc!

Looks like the light screw on the direction switch side is a bit shorter, for clearance, perhaps?

TJ


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

Teledoc, Fantastic! I really appreciate that post!! I was having doubts that there really was a two light version of the 252. Thanks!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## upsman55 (Jan 11, 2013)

And TJ, yes from what I see, definitely for clearance.


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