# Perplexing problem with 0-4-0 Mantua



## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

I just picked up an older Mantua 0-4-0 steam loco & tender. I know that they have a reputation for contact issues. It is clean & lightly oiled. It seems to get power from one side on the tender (which has metal wheels) and the opposite side on the loco. It runs smoothly in forward or reverse when the transformer wires are touched to the wheels. On the track it runs really well in reverse but hesitates and struggles forward. Is it related to the connection between the loco & tender (flat piece of stiff plastic)? The tender wheels seem to barely contact the track and when I press down on it the loco spins and wants to take off. Like I said, I am perplexed?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

What happens if you flip the engine around on the track, facing the other direction ... i.e., switch the input polarity? Same symptom ... reverse OK, struggle forward? Or do these symptoms reverse?

Is there any evidence that you have or should have a weight inside the tender?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That motor only sets with one screw. Clean the worm gear and try to play with the position when you tighten it down. It may be worn from that position. I have never pulled the worm gear to reverse it on the motor. I like the Mantua but don't have any. It's my choice for HO.


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

Flipped the engine around -still smooth in reverse and struggling forward. There is a lot of overhang at the back of the engine. It seems to me forward rotational torque lifts the back end therefore the front of the tender. Reverse rotation presses down on the back of the engine & tender. I tried removing the solid link between the engine & tender and just leaving the wire connection but same result. Pressing down on the tender does make it want to go faster so maybe still a connection issue? When I just touch the transformer wires to the wheels it runs smoothly forward and reverse. The worm gear and the 'pickup gear' both appear to be good condition. In reverse it pulls a string of cars very easily. Forward it struggles with or without a load. Any tips on how to adjust the worm gear position per T-Man's suggestion. I partially removed the bottom gear and wheels to inspect the worm gear but there are a lot of other screws under there and I don't want to mess it up. (Yes I'm a Noob).


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

If the poor forward operation is due to lifting of the tender, and loss of full electrical contact of its pickup wheels, might adding a weight (at least temporarily, as a diagnostic) to the tender help?

I'm perplexed, though, when you say that the same symptoms happen even when you removed the draw bar attaching the engine to the tender. Doing that should likely eliminate the torque / tender lifting hypothesis. Can you inspect the wire connections between the tender and the loco?

Maybe the loss of electrical pickup is due to torque and "lifting" in the loco itself? That get's back to T-Man's line of thinking.

Wish I could offer more ...

TJ


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

gordonzo said:


> Flipped the engine around -still smooth in reverse and struggling forward. There is a lot of overhang at the back of the engine. It seems to me forward rotational torque lifts the back end therefore the front of the tender. Reverse rotation presses down on the back of the engine & tender. I tried removing the solid link between the engine & tender and just leaving the wire connection but same result. Pressing down on the tender does make it want to go faster so maybe still a connection issue? When I just touch the transformer wires to the wheels it runs smoothly forward and reverse. The worm gear and the 'pickup gear' both appear to be good condition. In reverse it pulls a string of cars very easily. Forward it struggles with or without a load. Any tips on how to adjust the worm gear position per T-Man's suggestion. I partially removed the bottom gear and wheels to inspect the worm gear but there are a lot of other screws under there and I don't want to mess it up. (Yes I'm a Noob).


Hi Gord, 

The Mantua's are neat little engines. How heavily used was it? Was it sitting unused for a long time? When you say the engine "struggles", is it because of electrical power interruption, or does it seem like physical binding holding the motor back? The fact that it runs smoothly when upside down with wires touching the wheels suggests that the electrical contact may be compromised only when the tender wheels (or engine wheels) are turning in one direction. Take a really close look with a magnifying glass at the strips where the current is picked up off of the tender wheels. Check if they looked tweaked or are not laying flat. If pressing down on the tender helps, that could mean that the strips may not be pressing on the tender axles enough. You could try removing the trucks and gently bending the strips so that they apply more pressure. Also check for any accumulated lint or grunge between the strips and the axles. Hey, can you post some pics of the undersides so we can take a look?

Greg


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

I have attached some pics. I still can't figure out how to put them directly into my reply.

I really like this little engine but am quite disappointed in it so far. I bought it on eBay and it was described as EXC!!. Then I find out it was untested. I can get my $9.50 back if I spend $9.21 on return postage! I'll get right on that.

I will try cleaning up all the contacts on the tender - that will be easy. I would also like to take the bottom of the engine completely off so I can get at the worm gear. I have partially removed the drive wheels but just want to be sure I don't mess something up when I take out the remaing screws.

Thanks for all the responses.

Gord


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You guys know these HO locos better than me ...

Is he missing a rubber traction ring (?) on his left front loco drive wheel?

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

gordonzo said:


> I just picked up an older Mantua 0-4-0 steam loco & tender. I know that they have a reputation for contact issues. It is clean & lightly oiled. It seems to get power from one side on the tender (which has metal wheels) and the opposite side on the loco. *It runs smoothly in forward or reverse when the transformer wires are touched to the wheels*. On the track it runs really well in reverse but hesitates and struggles forward. Is it related to the connection between the loco & tender (flat piece of stiff plastic)? The tender wheels seem to barely contact the track and when I press down on it the loco spins and wants to take off. Like I said, I am perplexed?


Gordo,

Your wire-to-the-wheels test....are you doing it upside down, or rightside up? If you are testing in an inverted position, try testing it the other way with the wires. I supect your motor may be having a gearing problem and having the engine inverted pulls the motor into a different position, allowing to to work.


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

tjcruiser - There is only 1 wheel grooved for the traction ring.

I cleaned up all the contacts on the tender which has helped a bit. It still runs poorly in forward and seems to always slow down on the same areas on the track, but all of my other engines run smoothly all around the track. In reverse it goes really fast and smooth. Still


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

Reckers - I tried the direct power test again both wheels up and wheels down - same thing - runs very nicely. Put it back on the track - smooth in reverse and very slow and struggling in forward. Like I said - perplexing!

Update: I pulled the bottom off the loco and have attached a pic. The worm gear looks ok but the worm gear and motor has some play along the shaft and the whole motor/shaft/worm gear assembly can be moved back & forth a bit along the shaft. Is that normal?

Also, the light wire is disconnected. Where does it hook up?

Thanks again.
If this thing is toast I'll send it back because I have been offered a refund including my ship cost.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

If you want to post an image, *right* click on the pic you want to post, select *Properties*, and *copy* the address:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3035&d=1275163712

Then paste the address into the text of your post, then put *







* on the back... and badda-bing badda-boom it shows up. 




















(My Mantua has just one traction tire too... ) 

The key to your situation is a proper diagnosis. It's either electrical, or mechanical. Either poor or intermittent electrical contact... or binding gears. This needs to be determined before the right fix can be implemented. I don't believe that you have a serious problem with your engine, so hang in there and we'll explore the possibilities. 

If it's gears... when the motor spins in one direction, the worm gear on the output shaft pushes in one direction along its axis of rotation, and when spinning in the other direction, it pushes the other direction. perhaps it's binding against one end. You'll probably want to take the top of the engine off to expose the motor, this can help you a lot in determining what's going on. First things to check is if the bronze output shaft sleeves of the motor have a little oil on them and turn freely, and then if the drive gears have a little grease on them and move freely. If it's gears, when you rotate the armature of the motor with your finger it will turn more freely in one direction than the other.

(edit: oops... sorry, you had already posted while I was doing this one.

Greg


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

Choo Choo - Thanks for your help once again. This is a really nice little engine so I hope we can figure it out. I took the body off and the worm gear and armature turn smoothly by hand in both directions but I can move the worm gear/shaft/armature back and forth a bit. Is that bad or normal?

Regarding photos - When I right click on my pic and hit properties I don't get a copy option? Maybe I'm just photo-challenged?


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey, just another thought. Are your engine's driving wheels geared together, or are they only joined by the driving rods? Maybe the rods are binding when the engine's wheels turn in one direction under load, but don't bind under a no load condition. 

edit: A little bit of longitudinal movement is ok. 

You right click to show the picture's properties, Then you have to manually highlight the 'http://" address with your mouse, then press both the "ctrl" and "c" keys at the same time to copy it... then "ctrl" and "v" at the same time to paste it into your post. 

Greg


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

> Hey, just another thought. Are your engine's driving wheels geared together, or are they only joined by the driving rods? Maybe the rods are binding when the engine's wheels turn in one direction under load, but don't bind under a no load condition.


Greg - I think you may be onto something here! Only one set of wheels are driven and the other set operates from the rods, which in this case are thin, flat strips. One side seems to have much less clearance than the other, I messed around with them a bit and it seems to have improved the forward performance. How do I go about setting them up properly? I will take some close-ups tomorro evening so you can see the exact setup.

Thanks,
Gord


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gordonzo said:


> Choo Choo - Thanks for your help once again. This is a really nice little engine so I hope we can figure it out. I took the body off and the worm gear and armature turn smoothly by hand in both directions but I can move the worm gear/shaft/armature back and forth a bit. Is that bad or normal?
> 
> Regarding photos - When I right click on my pic and hit properties I don't get a copy option? Maybe I'm just photo-challenged?



Another way to attach picture to a post is to click the paper clip, up top in the post box when your writing the post.
Click the paper clip then find your picture in your computer, click browse, then click on your picture and click open, then just click upload and wait for it to upload.
Then minimize the upload box and go back to the paper clip,click, then hit manage attachments and it will be attached.

I just picked a random picture.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Following Greg's line of thinking above, can you temporarily remove all of the drive rods (as an experiment) to see if that gets the loco running forward OK?


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

Removed drive rods - loco just spins because the traction wheel is powered by the drive rods. It spins much slower in forward than in reverse. Cleaned everything with contact cleaner and lightly oiled it up. No change - struggles forward when under load. Turning the worm gear or motor armature manually is smooth in either direction. 

EDIT: I guess that means it must be in the motor drive itself?

I guess it is toast - I'm going to return it for a refund. Thanks for all your help.

Gord


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I have had two 0-4-0s with this issue. One is the same as yours and the other was an 0-4-0T. The cast ones pre-Tyco did not use traction tires, they were more than heavy enough without them. I found both of mine to have an issue with the worm gear binding. It was only apparent under load. What would happen is that when the loco turned to go forward the motor moved slightly. There is one screw that allows the position of the motor to be adjusted slightly for and aft. This needs to be fine tuned through trial and error and then you will be all set. 

These are great little engines. I have one with a box style tender, two with slope back tenders and one that is a tank engine. All can out pull many of my diesels due to their weight.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gordonzo said:


> ... because the traction wheel is powered by the drive rods.


Seems like odd design-thinking to me. Wouldn't a loco be better served if the traction wheel were on the geared actual drive wheel itself?

TJ


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

tkruger - I don't see any available adjustment on the motor to worm gear mounting nor the actual armature mount. It's easy to get at but the screw holes are not slotted? I snugged it up as best I could which reduced the amount of play along the shaft but still no change to the forward operation.

tjcruiser - I agree that the traction wheel should be directly on the gear drive.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey Gord, 

Even if you end up returning the loco, you picked up a lot of useful mechanical knowledge from the experience of exploring the innards. 

Greg


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

choo choo - It's amazing how simple these things really are to assemble /dis-assemble yet how complicated they can be to tune. I had the power rods off, the motor drive out and even the motor separated from the drive. Everything looks really good condition and turns smoothly by hand or when not under load.

I thing tkruger's assessment is correct and the worm gear is binding in forward under load. But there does not seem to be any adjustment and I would have to slightly slot the motor mounts. But then I would not beable to return it if that didn't fix it.

It's in the box for return. Thanks for all the help. If one of you guys had this thing you would probably have it purring within 10 minutes. Such a nice litte engine.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gordo,

We feel your pain ... I think all of us have treaded on that thin edge between investing another few hours trying to debug some loco problem, versus hurling the bloody thing at the wall and enjoying -- albeit momentarily -- the excitement of exploding projectile parts and bits!

Great effort on your part, and we do hope to see you around here on a regular basis!

TJ


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

Thanks tjcruiser - If it were not for the return with full refund option I would keep trying.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

There's *always* another deal.


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

> There's always another deal.


Very true. I need 2 things in my replacement - cheap & durable. My 5 grandkids love to play with the trains & slot cars I have set-up on the same table.

Anyone have any experience with one of these, particularly the tender drive:
TYCO 2-8-0 & tender #638 Chattanooga, from 1975, tender drive

As you can see I am still 'perplexed' at how to get photos from my hard drive directly onto the page!


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I might be interested in taking the Mantua off of your hands for what you paid depending on what that was. My 3 year old modified one of mine. I runs well but as for the cab and tender lets say no amount of cosmetic surgery will help. 

I have one of those Chattanooga Choo Choos. Mine is the later 0-8-0 version, same thing without the front pilot truck. The tender uses traction tires. Make sure they are there or it will not move at all. The main weakness is the pinion gear. If you try to pull to much that will break loose from the shaft. If it does you might be able to hold it in place with a dab of solder. That is what I had to do. The Tyco one is not the most durable one on the market.


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## gordonzo (May 13, 2010)

I paid $9.50 plus $8 shipping to Canada for $17.50, probably too much. Shipping from here to you would likely be ~$9. 

Edit: Thanks for the heads up on the Tyco. I understand basic Bachmann are also bottom shelf quality? Also Model Power?

What about AHM/Rivarossi?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gordo,

Here's some historical (non-technical) info on the same (similiar?) Tyco 2-8-0:

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/steamengines/id2.html

Also, this Tyco forum might offer further technical discussion ...

http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/default.asp

Cheers,

TJ


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## stationmaster (Dec 7, 2008)

The problem, more than likely, is the tender being under weight. I collect old Mantua engines and that has been the problem with 99.2% of them. 

Also, remember many of these old engines are some 40-50 years old. Many of mine have been repowered. Nature of the beast. I doubt that your engine is that far gone to warrant a return. One must remember that when buying/collecting these old trains that some work will be required to get them to run correctly. Even then, they won't run like modern engines. 

You have a collectible, it needs a bit of work, keep it. 

Bob


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## Robert Nungester (11 mo ago)

gordonzo said:


> I just picked up an older Mantua 0-4-0 steam loco & tender. I know that they have a reputation for contact issues. It is clean & lightly oiled. It seems to get power from one side on the tender (which has metal wheels) and the opposite side on the loco. It runs smoothly in forward or reverse when the transformer wires are touched to the wheels. On the track it runs really well in reverse but hesitates and struggles forward. Is it related to the connection between the loco & tender (flat piece of stiff plastic)? The tender wheels seem to barely contact the track and when I press down on it the loco spins and wants to take off. Like I said, I am perplexed?


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## Robert Nungester (11 mo ago)

Information for You, or anyone else who may have this issue. I know You no longer have the locomotive. Here are the two possible problems I could see causing this issue. Tyco/ Mantua locomotives often have the engine just a bit to low. which puts to much pressure between the worm gear, and the drive gear. This issue is compounded when gravity also pushes the drive gear up. This can be fixed by putting a small shim under the motor, then retightening it, a one or two thousands of an inch should do. however as you mentioned it too be lose I think the actual problem is this. Tyco motors though very well built have a small washer(sometimes brass, or plastic) on each end of the armature shaft. After long usage these can disintegrate, this causes the armature to shift back and forth when changing direction. and when it shifts, it binds the worm gear against the teeth on the drive gear. Replacing the motor is about all You could do, as I do not think you can open that motor.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Welcome to the forum. Good information. The thread is almost 12 years old. The OP and most of the others are long gone.


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## Robert Nungester (11 mo ago)

Also if You are looking for affordable DC steam locomotives I would suggest AHM/Rivarossi, but only if you use Code 100 track( they have large flanges that will drag on smaller codes), RSO, Mehano, and IHC are also good choices. Model Power has some good stuff. Avoid Life- Like, and older Bachmann like Covid 19. Just my opinion- based on 40 years of modeling.


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