# Switch / Turnout Status / Indicators



## EBrown (5 mo ago)

How are folks getting the "status" of turnouts for LEDs/indicators?

The turnouts I have are all insulated at the frog rails, so my initial thought is just to solder wires to both frog rails, and then both outside rails, and run them through a transistor that can determine if there's power on the track or not. Since my turnouts are power-routing and the frog-rails are ONLY powered by the turnout, the initial experiments are showing a good degree of success.

Curious if anyone uses other techniques.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

EBrown said:


> How are folks getting the "status" of turnouts for LEDs/indicators?
> 
> The turnouts I have are all insulated at the frog rails, so my initial thought is just to solder wires to both frog rails, and then both outside rails, and run them through a transistor that can determine if there's power on the track or not. Since my turnouts are power-routing and the frog-rails are ONLY powered by the turnout, the initial experiments are showing a good degree of success.
> 
> Curious if anyone uses other techniques.


So are you depending on points making good contact with the mating rail or do use a microswitch (or similar) to actually route the track power and not depend on rail to rail contact? If rail to rail then you indication might jump back and forth as train passes over. Just a thought.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

My signals are controlled by the turnout motors.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

rrman987 said:


> So are you depending on points making good contact with the mating rail or do use a microswitch (or similar) to actually route the track power and not depend on rail to rail contact? If rail to rail then you indication might jump back and forth as train passes over. Just a thought.


I'm relying on the power passing through the turnout via the rail/rail connection.

I could wire up a small switch to pass the power on my behalf, and wire my sensor to that, I was just trying to avoid having to add more moving parts.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

MichaelE said:


> My signals are controlled by the turnout motors.


Same here, albeit I’ve not installed any Bluepoints yet.

EDIT: Somewhat related too, but the indicators & arrangement I’m planning to use is very “guest friendly.” Instead of a single or dual LED at the TO with green/red indication for straight/diverging; I’m opting to use all red LEDs and illuminate the route on the fascia. So instead of green/red indicated at one point, the entire route is indicated. I’m going with red because my track diagram will be red striping with yellow lettering, mimicking my locomotive paint scheme. 
I think having the route illuminated will be less confusing to guests (and myself honestly!) plus it looks a bit more like a real CTC display IMO. It requires more LEDs but they’re cheap, especially in bulk. 
It’s a to each their own thing. That’s my plan & reasoning. Thought I’d share it, especially if you expect guest (or young) operators.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

My layout has LED indicators at all the turnouts. The turnouts are handlaid #5, 6 & 8's. All have powered turnout frogs, I think the HO term is electrofrog but mine are not HO. The LEDs are illuminated through a relay taking a signal from the turnout motor. Might be more involved than you are looking to do but it is 100% reliable. Here is the wiring diagram and a picture that shows the illuminated position indicators.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

MichaelE said:


> My signals are controlled by the turnout motors.


Interesting, I'll have to consider that. I only wanted to do it this way because I don't have any motors installed yet, I am manually switching all the turnouts while I build more of the railroad.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

...or DCC installed, which complicates using rail voltage.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

If I remember correctly, most tortous type machines have the ability to do this, but for the Peco twin coil switches, like the PL10, I don't think that the power stays on once thrown... it's just a short, quick electric pulse to activate one of the two electro-magnets.

However, Peco makes a PL13 (I think that's right) that is a simple electric switch that sits on the bottom of the PL10 and reciprocates with the point movement. They are relatively inexpensive, and would suffice to route power to two different LEDs


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

JeffHurl said:


> If I remember correctly, most tortous type machines have the ability to do this, but for the Peco twin coil switches, like the PL10, I don't think that the power stays on once thrown... it's just a short, quick electric pulse to activate one of the two electro-magnets.
> 
> However, Peco makes a PL13 (I think that's right) that is a simple electric switch that sits on the bottom of the PL10 and reciprocates with the point movement. They are relatively inexpensive, and would suffice to route power to two different LEDs


I'll be building my own turnout motors with a servo I already have, but I may be able to work something clever into the plan I already have, maybe mount a slide-switch for the LED's that the motor can control when it switches the turnout as well.

Looks like the next thing on my "parts" list will be signal indicators for turnouts. May have to build those...


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

That's exactly how the Peco things I mentioned work, but they are designed to fit onto their PL10s specifically for this purpose.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Be aware that some servos can cause interference with locomotives. I’m not sure why or how or if it depends on the type of servo or what. A member @videobruce was having trouble with that. I don’t know if he ever remedied it and/or how.

I’m keeping all of my TO’s remote manual via Bluepoint machines (fascia controls), except my staging yard which will have two stationary decoders because my staging yard is 6 feet by 18 feet.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

OilValleyRy said:


> Be aware that some servos can cause interference with locomotives. I’m not sure why or how or if it depends on the type of servo or what. A member @videobruce was having trouble with that. I don’t know if he ever remedied it and/or how.
> 
> I’m keeping all of my TO’s remote manual via Bluepoint machines (fascia controls), except my staging yard which will have two stationary decoders because my staging yard is 6 feet by 18 feet.


Odd, I will have to keep that in mind as I play with them.


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## REdington (Aug 20, 2018)

If your using servos, it easy to to wire status LED's. Using DPDT switches, one side goes to the controller (I use Arduinos with sensor boards) and the other goes to 3 legged bi-color LED's.


Here is my 3D printed servo mount with limit switch to control the frog power




Here is a look at my control panel




Here is the back of one of my yard control panels. I use a rotary switch for a martrix, dialing up the track that is wanted.
I have it so everything plugs-in to the Arduino sensor boards.






I can go more in depth if you need more info




OilValleyRy said:


> Be aware that some servos can cause interference with locomotives. I’m not sure why or how or if it depends on the type of servo or what.



I have over 100 servos on my layout and never had any problems


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

My simplest setup is...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

REdington said:


> I have over 100 servos on my layout and never had any problems


I only have 34, but I agree. I've never heard of such a thing. Oil Valley, do you have a source for the information about servos interfering with locomotives that is more authoritative than, "I think it happened to this guy". Because really, if you're going to caution someone against using servos because of this, you'd better be putting out solid information, not rumor and hearsay.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Oil Valley, do you have a source for the information about servos interfering with locomotives that is more authoritative than, "I think it happened to this guy".


Yes.
Issue between turnout servos and locos

As a matter of fact it turned out that Intermountain locomotives were also affected, not just Atlas. My source of that “I think” was my selling him a pair of Intermountain FTs, which had the same issue, and did a refund/return.


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## REdington (Aug 20, 2018)

I glanced at that thread and what I gathered, was that they were having problems running locomotives on DC and not DCC, Whenever I have a chattering servo with one of the Arduino controllers, I just change it out, and use it where I'm using a Tam Valley Octopus lll controler. The Octopus is programed to shut the servo off after about 10 seconds of being activated. 

I have 10 ABBA's sets of IM Fs and FTs, and have 3 sets of 4 unit lashups of Atlas GP7's and they don't have any problems.

He posted a link in that thread to another club having the same problem when running DC. When that club is running DCC, the problem goes away.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

EBrown said:


> The turnouts I have are all insulated at the frog rails, so my initial thought is just to solder wires to both frog rails, and then both outside rails, and run them through a transistor that can determine if there's power on the track or not.


i wired LED/resistor pairs between the frog and outside rails as a quick and dirty turnout indicator


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

OilValleyRy said:


> Yes.
> Issue between turnout servos and locos
> 
> As a matter of fact it turned out that Intermountain locomotives were also affected, not just Atlas. My source of that “I think” was my selling him a pair of Intermountain FTs, which had the same issue, and did a refund/return.


Right, so you have established that some old open frame motors on old DC locomotives can cause RFI interference. That is a known, but rare issue.

That wasn't what you said. You said it's the SERVOS that interfere with the locomotives. So still waiting.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Right, so you have established that some old open frame motors on old DC locomotives can cause RFI interference. That is a known, but rare issue.
> 
> That wasn't what you said. You said it's the SERVOS that interfere with the locomotives. So still waiting.


No, that is not what I said. Here it is again, in larger font.



OilValleyRy said:


> Be aware that some servos can cause interference with locomotives. I’m not sure why or how or if it depends on the type of servo or what. A member @videobruce was having trouble with that. I don’t know if he ever remedied it and/or how.
> 
> I’m keeping all of my TO’s remote manual via Bluepoint machines (fascia controls), except my staging yard which will have two stationary decoders because my staging yard is 6 feet by 18 feet.


Now a bit slower.

Some.

Servos.

Can.

As reported by mentioned member, not by me.
You’ll also note that I said I was unaware of any remedy to the problem from him. 
You may also notice the first two words to Ebrown “be aware” which is simply bringingto his attention that interference can occur under some circumstances. The extent of those circumstances are not defined as new things enter the market. Maybe he already knew, maybe not. The interference occurs on DC, not hardwired DCC as far as anyone knows, what about wireless DCC? What about what comes next? Bluetooth/smartphone control? All I’m pointing out is that problems can occur. When why and how the jury is still deliberating.
I didn’t speak in absolutes, I rarely do, because seldom are things absolute.

I never established anything about “old open frame motors.” 
Where did you get inspired to invent that misinformation? 
And why persist in attributing false claims to others?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

And again, that's not what I said, or what you said. Go back and read you OWN POST. You said SERVOS cause problems with locomotives. That's flat out wrong. The thread you quoted and are referring to, was about LOCOMOTIVES causing RF Interference with servo control cards / cables (not actually the servos themselves, but that's nit picking).

If you'd actually READ the post you quoted, you'd see that THAT POST, which you tried to use to back up your own misinformation, actually referred to old frame motors causing RF interference in some cases. The servo chattering that is referred to has nothing to do with interference and everything to do with trying to drive a servo past its set endpoint.

Man up and admit you got it wrong. Admit that there are things you don't know and can't help with. That would increase your credibility far more than trying to deflect and misdirect and always throw your two cents in.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

How much is 2 cents worth nowadays anyway….? 😉


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

How is all this chest thumping helping anything?

Quit picking nits, for crying out loud.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JeffHurl said:


> How is all this chest thumping helping anything?
> 
> Quit picking nits, for crying out loud.


It helps in this way: you are discussing servos, and someone cautions (incorrectly) that servos may cause a problem. So an inexperienced Hobbyist, reading it, says' "I don't want to risk that," and rules out using them, when they may be the perfect solution. It's important to keep things factual and accurate for the sake of those who come here looking for help and advice. Yes, the discussion should be kept civil, but that takes effort and maturity on everyone's part.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Most likely it just turns people away. That's what you are really doing... Making this a caustic place to visit. Please stop, and get over yourself.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Servos interfering with motors or motors interfering with servos. It’s the same end result. 
It’s like arguing whether another man seduced your wife, or your wife seduced another man; either way she’s running around on ya, right?

If the hair splitting is concluded;

@EBrown if you currently are or intend to upgrade to wireless control or bluetooth etc, I would get one servo to put through the paces to make sure the servos that you are choosing do not have any said/alleged interference (wireless dcc, wifi router, cordless phones, etc) before buying $200 worth. There’s zero harm in looking before leaping, most especially with new technological techniques & hardware (ie bluetooth dcc signals). Verify; then commit.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

gregc said:


> i wired LED/resistor pairs between the frog and outside rails as a quick and dirty turnout indicator


I'm gonna try this route, I may wire up all of them with temporary alligator clips and see if I get any noticeable power fluctuations (because I only have one booster putting out 3A, so I don't want to cause any odd power drops). The only thing that sucks is I have to rip up all the turnouts and get new wiring to them and soldered on, so I'll be doing a lot of painful re-work if this is how I end up wanting to accomplish my goal. Another reason I like it is I can identify if a turnout is failing to transfer power, because the LED won't light up.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

That's a good plan!

I'm starting to see a drop-off of electrical contact on my N scale Peco turnouts. They are power routing, and, the points don't always make a good connection when they are thrown. I have one loco that is short enough to stall, as teh point rail no longer carried sufficient power. I fixed it by using a small section of paper towel folded over the edge of an old business card... Put a little CRC Contact Cleaner on the paper towel and run it in between the stock rails and the points. The issue seems to be related to dust, oxidation, or possibly a build-up of diluted glue from ballasting.

I do get continuity, but barely, until I clean it.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

JeffHurl said:


> That's a good plan!
> 
> I'm starting to see a drop-off of electrical contact on my N scale Peco turnouts. They are power routing, and, the points don't always make a good connection when they are thrown. I have one loco that is short enough to stall, as teh point rail no longer carried sufficient power. I fixed it by using a small section of paper towel folded over the edge of an old business card... Put a little CRC Contact Cleaner on the paper towel and run it in between the stock rails and the points. The issue seems to be related to dust, oxidation, or possibly a build-up of diluted glue from ballasting.
> 
> I do get continuity, but barely, until I clean it.


I had one I got a little glue in, what I'm doing is taking emery cloth or 5k grit polishing sandpaper and cleaning with that. The result is great (so far), and it also helps to get excess solder off the top of the rails when I solder wires to them.


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