# First Layout for first table



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Ok I'm new so be gentle. I'm building this for my two sons and me a little, so I want it to be very interactive. There will be some scenery but nothing like some of the awesome models I've seen on here. I would prefer more tracks and switching and changing directions over looking nice. So with that said I reiterate I'm new and don't know what I'm doing here with layout so I found a layout I thought looked very interactive and fit the shape I had to work with so I borrowed the layout and modified it a bit to fit.

I downloaded and watched the tutorials on SCARM and started laying out the track. This is in N scale and I used the Kato unitrack system. 

Thoughts, concerns, comments welcome. I know the grades are too much for the elevated portion, wasn't sure how high to make it so I went to 3" which made my grades 5% or so.


----------



## Ky Bob (Mar 7, 2016)

I'm a newbie also and really don't have a layout planned yet. Could you tell me where you found your layout? Mine want be quit that big but I do want two main lines and possibly a small yard or industry.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Ky Bob said:


> I'm a newbie also and really don't have a layout planned yet. Could you tell me where you found your layout? Mine want be quit that big but I do want two main lines and possibly a small yard or industry.


I just started searching google for model train layouts and finally found one in a L-Shape that I liked.


This is the website I found this layout. Then I just modeled it in SCARM, took me probably 8 hours to lay it out and learn most of the program.

http://www.thegoodsyard.co.uk/projects.html


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

3" clearance for n-scale is overly generous. And 5% is going to severely limit the length of your trains.

The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) publishes standards for various aspects of model railroading. Here are the Clearance standards

http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-7_2012.02.pdf

Decide what era of rolling stock you want to collect, then look at the H variable for N scale. BUT NOTE: this height is the height from the TOP of the rail to the Bottom of the bridge (or top of the tunnel arch). To get the full rise of track, you need to add in everything from the bottom of the bridge to the top of the rail on the bridge.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

As for the layout design. It provides for lots of possible action. You can run 3 trains simultaneously (although in limited ovals). Or you can run one train throughout the layout in a pattern that you choose, via your turnouts.

Also, there are lots of spurs for locating industries on -- which can give you a variety of different switching operations.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> 3" clearance for n-scale is overly generous. And 5% is going to severely limit the length of your trains.
> 
> The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) publishes standards for various aspects of model railroading. Here are the Clearance standards
> 
> ...


Ok So I dropped it down to 2" the standard was 1 9/32 so allowing for bridge material I should be good but I will measure things out later on. At 2" height that takes the grades down to 3.8 on one side and 3.3 on the other.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

There is one other way to reduce the grade -- which you may have already done in your layout -- I can't tell.

Instead of having the upper track climb 2" to clear the lower track, you could have the lower track drop 1" and the upper track rise 1" -- or any other spilt that works for your layout. This spreads the grade out over both tracks -- and should reduce the grades significantly -- unless you already have done this.

Also, don't forget to allow for vertical easements -- sections of track that gradually curve up or down to change from flat to sloped. This takes extra space to accomplish -- but without them, you get derailments or locos suspended with their wheels up off of the tracks.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

wow just sticker shocked myself, lol, like I said never done this before, I just put the tack parts list in a cart online and it's a lot more than I was expecting, all those switches are expensive and add up quick. I might eliminate some of the turn outs and switching to begin with and make sure the kids like it before adding all those back in.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Trimmed it down a bit to lower the initial buy in a little bit. I can always add it back in later.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You might also save by switching to plain flex track.
The Kato and other proprietery brands of track are costly compared
to flex. You can then buy turnouts and crossings 
from other makes, usually at much lower prices.

One way you can make this work for you is to build it
in stages. Start with the tracks, say, on the top
section. As $ become easier, add some here or there.
Try to keep the original yards and spurs. They will provide
a lot of enjoyment.

If you go with DCC, I would make the entire layout
SINGLE track mainline. With passing sidings you can
run two trains on the same track going in opposite
directions with DCC.

And by all means, use any trick you can to keep the
grades within 2 degrees. 

If you use the 2" thick foam from big box stores
as the overlay of your table you would be able to
'dig' down and Lower the bottom track to be able to have clearance without the need for higher tracks.

Don


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

DonR said:


> You might also save by switching to plain flex track.
> The Kato and other proprietery brands of track are costly compared
> to flex. You can then buy turnouts and crossings
> from other makes, usually at much lower prices.
> ...


Newb question what do you mean by single track mainline?

And it would be more cost effective to use atlas parts and flex track over the pre formed track pieces?


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

So I have re laid out the track using Atlas flex track a fixed fixed pieces and all Atlas remote switches. I'm currently planning on a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra DCC starter set and not sure what the switch module goes with that. Anyways I re-laid track for no elevation now it's all flat, I think this will be better for our first layout. So as budget permits I plan on doing this in 4 phases. Phase 1 will be the double oval track on the left side with switches to change between the 2 ovals, Phase 2 will add the oval on the right side, Phase 3 will all the large loop around the perimeter of the table, and the last phase will be adding more turnouts and yards to the track.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

I believe I have the final plan now.

I removed the elevation, I widened the outer perimeter track (red) to a minimum 15" radius curves, the blue and purple loops have min 11.1" radius curves, and the inner yellow loop is 9.75" radius. 

Obviously if I get a larger loco and cars for the outside loop they won't be able to transition to the inner loops, but the smaller trains from the inside can venture out and back in.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Your deep red track is a 'single track' main line.
To make it more usable, add 3 or so 'passisng
sidings'. These should be as long as your
longest passenger train. Put passenger stations
on the sidings. With your DCC you can run your
passenger trains, for example, clockwise, and a
freight counter-clockwise on the same track.
It offers a little 'excitement' to your continuous
running. you actually have to do something to
keep the trains from colliding.

Those inner radius you mention would be excellent
for N scale. Did I miss reading what scale you plan?
They would not be desirable for anything but very
small locos as HO.

You'll need an old DC power pack to power for your
turnout motors. DCC controllers do NOT provide
power for turnouts, lights or other accessories.
Some use old WALL WARTS that have an output
of at least 12 volts, either AC or DC. I would
suggest a Capacitor Discharge unit to protect
the Atlas twin coil turnout motors from burn out
due to overly long button pushes or stuck
buttons. They are available commercially or
you can build one yourself for just a few dollars,
parts from Radio Shack. 

Don


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

DonR said:


> Your deep red track is a 'single track' main line.
> To make it more usable, add 3 or so 'passisng
> sidings'. These should be as long as your
> longest passenger train. Put passenger stations
> ...


Thanks for the info, and yes this in going to be N scale.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Electrotech said:


> I believe I have the final plan now.


I am by no means an expert in layout design, but I don't really understand the series of spurs in the center of the yellow oval. Because of the way it is designed, only a VERY short train (like a loco and one car -- or maybe just a loco) can access the 3 sidings in the lower left of that group of sidings. If you tell us what the purpose of these tracks is, I'm sure that someone will suggest a better design for that area.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

I have questions regarding the power routing and the switch operation on my layout.

I'm still trying to comprehend the power delivery and the switch operations. I see there are insulated and conductive joiners for the track, and I see in some cases you want insulated joiners to prevent shorts in the track but I don't really understand where those are necessary. 

Regarding the switches, I'm planning on using Atlas remote turnouts and wiring them to a switch panel. Can I just use any SPDT momentary switch connected to a power source to throw the turnout?


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> I am by no means an expert in layout design, but I don't really understand the series of spurs in the center of the yellow oval. Because of the way it is designed, only a VERY short train (like a loco and one car -- or maybe just a loco) can access the 3 sidings in the lower left of that group of sidings. If you tell us what the purpose of these tracks is, I'm sure that someone will suggest a better design for that area.


That brings up a good point, thank you. I really don't know the point to be honest. This is my first layout and I looked at an existing layout and tried to mimic it, I looked back at the original and the the line is longer in the original and more parallel to the track, I will need to fix it to make it more usable.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Electrotech said:


> I see there are insulated and conductive joiners for the track, and I see in some cases you want insulated joiners to prevent shorts in the track but I don't really understand where those are necessary.


Insulated rail joiners are necessary if you have a reversing loop -- a part of the layout where a train can end up changing directions and coming back on the same track that it went out on. Unless I missed something, you do not have a reversing loop, so you do not need insulated joiners.

Insulated rail joiners are also necessary for separating blocks in DC layouts. But with DCC, blocks are not necessary.


----------



## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

One minor suggested change to your track plan...

While I was tracing your layout, looking for reversing loops, I noticed that the two crossovers between the red line and the light blue line on the right are facing the same way. This means that if you are running clockwise on the red line, you can enter the light blue line, but you can't get back out -- without backing through one of the connections.

This is an easy fix. Just add another crossover between those two lines that faces in the opposite direction -- of flip the direction of one of the existing crossovers.

The three lines in the upper left all have two crossovers facing the oppose direction -- so no problem there.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> One minor suggested change to your track plan...
> 
> While I was tracing your layout, looking for reversing loops, I noticed that the two crossovers between the red line and the light blue line on the right are facing the same way. This means that if you are running clockwise on the red line, you can enter the light blue line, but you can't get back out -- without backing through one of the connections.
> 
> ...


I think I got it.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Made some progress on the build this evening, got the frame built and also got a digitrax zephyr xrtra on order.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

If I might offer a suggestion...

Unless you are very short, I think you will rapidly become very unhappy with the height of that layout. At that height, doing any kind of work on the layout will involve being bent over, which will quickly lead to agony in the lower back. It also leads to too much of a birds eye view of things, which detracts from the realism factor.

My own layout is at 48" high. Which is a pretty good height. Were it not for my boys (who are now taller than me), I might have gone 6" higher.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> If I might offer a suggestion...
> 
> Unless you are very short, I think you will rapidly become very unhappy with the height of that layout. At that height, doing any kind of work on the layout will involve being bent over, which will quickly lead to agony in the lower back. It also leads to too much of a birds eye view of things, which detracts from the realism factor.
> 
> My own layout is at 48" high. Which is a pretty good height. Were it not for my boys (who are now taller than me), I might have gone 6" higher.


Yeah, my youngest is 5 and this is for the boys, he's only about 3' tall and I want them to be able to walk around the table and not have to stand on stools to see whats going on. The legs of the table can be adjusted to whatever height so as the boys grow I'll make it taller.


----------



## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Electrotech said:


> Yeah, my youngest is 5 and this is for the boys, he's only about 3' tall and I want them to be able to walk around the table and not have to stand on stools to see whats going on. The legs of the table can be adjusted to whatever height so as the boys grow I'll make it taller.


My layout is 40". I found this to be an almost perfect height.
You can crawl underneath without banging your head, yet reach across without knocking every scenic object in your path down.
And oodles of storage underneath! But I'm going to hang a curtain across the sides.
It would look like a rummage sale with all the stuff showing under there.

I was going to lower it at first to 35", but my wife talked me out of that.
Glad she did.
But you have a perfect reason for yours being low like that.
You'll just have to get a dining room chair on coasters, so you can scoot along, fixing stuff.

Edit; Uh-ohhh.......carpet. No scooting without a hard carpet runner!


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Electrotech said:


> Yeah, my youngest is 5 and this is for the boys, he's only about 3' tall and I want them to be able to walk around the table and not have to stand on stools to see whats going on. The legs of the table can be adjusted to whatever height so as the boys grow I'll make it taller.


I hear you. I went the step stool route. I hope your back forgives you.

You might consider RAISING the height to build it, then lowering it to run it.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

I made some progress.

Now have the plywood top and foam installed.

Also received all the stuff I need to get started laying the track and my first train.


----------



## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

Looks like this will be an amazing layout, hope you post pics as you go along.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

NAJ said:


> Looks like this will be an amazing layout, hope you post pics as you go along.


Thanks.

New Picture, got the first part of track laid out.



I bought a bunch of foam track bed too, should I use that under the track or just leave it on the pink foam?

What the best way to secure the track to the surface, glue?

I haven't soldered the track together yet just test fitting, I will borrow a soldering iron from work and solder it all together soon and solder on feeder wires.


----------



## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I like the look of roadbed for main lines and for spurs and yards go right on the foam.
White glue or latex caulk work good for laying roadbed and track. 
Don't over do it just a little to hold things in place. You might want to change things in the future.

Magic


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Magic said:


> I like the look of roadbed for main lines and for spurs and yards go right on the foam.
> White glue or latex caulk work good for laying roadbed and track.
> Don't over do it just a little to hold things in place. You might want to change things in the future.
> 
> Magic


Thanks, I bought some glue they recommended for the foam track bed I'll try that and see if it holds the track in place as well.


----------



## Electrotech (Mar 28, 2016)

Got the first part of the track soldered together and tacked on some wires so we could fire it up for the first time.

I still need to clean up the track its got some spots where it looses contact.

I did discover that if you want to make depressions on pink foam flux off eats right through it got a little on the foam and made a small crater.

Quick video


----------

