# 027 turnouts behaving badly



## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

I hope I got the right section for this. if not, move me please.

I got two 027 turnouts free. Left and right, both electric. Yep, good price. 

Now the problems hit. The left hand turnout is dead. No solenoid kicking, no light working, nothing.

The right hand one is haunted.
I connected it to my layout, where I'm putting a siding for a new business I will put in.
I put an engine on to test it for deralling or any other little quirks.

When power is begun on the transformer, the turnout red/green light goes on. But then, the solenoid begins to hum.
With more power, the turnout switches from straight to left turn.
I have not connected any turnout controls. 
If I move the center movable part back to straight, it will again power on, and switch back to turn.

My two questions are:
!.) By what I describe, is the first turnout salvagable?
2.) What in your opinion is causing the movable part to switch without any intended power being directed to it?

Can these turnouts be repaired cost effectively? Without coming close to buying a couple of new ones?


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

The simple answer is No. You can buy O27 switches used on the internet for $10.00 per pair or at a train show for $5.00 per pair.

If you are interested in repairing them you need to provide more information such as the manufacture and model of the switch. It would also help to let us know the track you are using and your power source.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Yes....what Wood said, but maybe they can be fixed?
Lionel?
Maybe some pictures of them too?


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Big Ed said:


> Yes....what Wood said, but maybe they can be fixed?
> Lionel?
> Maybe some pictures of them too?


Should of planned ahead on that. 
Yes, Lionel, 027 1122's. Left and right.
Tube rail, a separate 18V AC transformer.
Electric, no original control, used Atlas #56 control.

Pics I don't have as of yet, if needed, I will provide.
I'm guessing they should be with the solenoid covers off. close as possible?

I did put a band-aid on the weird solenoid action.
I put insulating pins in the curved end of the turnout.
That stopped the solenoid from kicking in every time I gave the track some power.
And, since I have jumpers running to the other side of the insulated side, the engine still gets power.

Now I'm having another problem. (Yep, full of them today)
I ran my old Ives 3251 through the turnout. I think the problem is, the wheels seem to be spaced farther apart than most. Also, the flanges are larger than the newer equipment, and catch the guard rail on the inside of the curved section.
It derails 100% of the time. Going in either direction.

I may just rip that turnout out of there and find a new place for the siding to begin.
I also just may not use them at all. I'm OK at many things, but electrical knowledge is not one of them.
I can use them as manual turnouts, though. Maybe a new yard siding??
Might get a pair as you said for a good price on the Bay.


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## Tucgary (Sep 21, 2015)

Ron, Must be an Arizona thing. I have been battling trying to have just 2 simple manual switches myself. My collection is up to 10. 
All bought cheaply.
I just spent 2 hours refreshing my self on the problems I was having.
I have read and printed many pages about the fiber pins. Best results were just move them around till they work on your layout.
1122 switches are nicer but I still have all the problems you talked about.
What I have made work is just basic 5021 and 5022 manual switches. But when all is done they make your train sound like it is crashing every time it goes over them. Very noisy!

I hope someone can suggest a smooth quiet manual switch we can use.

For what little I will use them I will probably just keep straight tracks in place and the turn out not hooked into the main line.

Last, I have found testing my layout with switches in I need more power and hook up my KW instead of the little 1.8 amp test transformer. 
Good luck Tucgary


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Ron, that's a cute little layout with lots of nice action and room for roads and scenery.. Both the old and new O27 switches can be problematic. However, they are dependable and if you jimmy the switch a little they'll work. I used them for 30 years!!!. Get Greenberg's Lionel postwar repair book. It is invaluable! Ron,you are incorrectly placing the insulating pins. You can do an internet search for the directions on the 1122. Electric repair is part of the deal with our hobby. It's easy and fun. Get a simple soldering gun and some 18 gauge wire Just give it a try.

My one suggestion for reducing the derailments is to remove the thin metal X at the foot of the frog. It is notorious for derailing engines.


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

For best results with the 1122's you must use the Lionel remote control switches that were made for them. The 1122's are wired differently inside then the more modern 027 switches.
To test the switch, by itself, supply power from a transformer to the center rail and outside rail that is continuous, the 2 outer terminals control the direction, to test the switch jump one of the 2 outer terminals and then the other one to the terminal that has the metal piece going to the solenoid housing.

If you are having problems with phantom switching the switch has problems underneath inside the housing with the wiring to the solenoid( a shorting out somewhere). My switch has rivets so it will need to be drilled out to open the switch.

The new Lionel switches lack quality in my opinion.

Much easier to replace the 1122 with a newer switch from Ross or Gargraves then repair them.

Lee Fritz


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=4142 some info for you


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wood is right, the 1122s have the anti derailing so correct placement of fiber pins is key. Try oiling the moving parts, and clean out the selaniod with contact cleaner for starters. I posted one link. Check the sticky above for 1122 switches.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Just a note.
All 1122 switches are not the same. I know this may not be your problem but some don't know this.

Copy and paste,

The first issue of the No. 1122 differed from the later issue in several respects. The switch motor housing has five notches, and *the outside curved and straight rails contained the insulated sections needed to operate the non-derailing feature, but no insulating track pins were required to utilize this feature.* NOTE: These switches would scrape the center fuel tank on the EMD F-3’s which Lionel began to issue for use on O27 Gauge track in 1955.

In 1953 Lionel would redesign these switches to accommodate the larger F-3 diesel engines. These switches are marked "MODEL 1122(E)" on the galvanized bottom, and have three notches on the control housing which has been rounded at the corner that is closest to the curved section of the track.* Also, the insulating sections of the tracks have been moved to the smaller inside rails and insulating pins are required to use the non-derailing feature of these switches. *These switches operated better than the previous issue and would be produced up until the end of the Post War Period in 1969.


That is from here,
http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_1122_track.htm

Which ones do you have Ron?
Most likely the newer styles.


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## sanepilot (Mar 11, 2012)

*1122*

Hi,all.. Here is the 1122 switches Ron has.I can`t find the post in the for sale thread.I just tried and couldn`t. I know some of you can.It has the photo of them. Also,Ron is a really nice MTF person.They worked when I had them inline. I changed my layout and didn`t need them anymore. Be nice to him as your to me.

They are ,as far as I know,the original 1122 switch by lionel.
Everett


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sanepilot said:


> Hi,all.. Here is the 1122 switches Ron has.I can`t find the post in the for sale thread.I just tried and couldn`t. I know some of you can.It has the photo of them. Also,Ron is a really nice MTF person.They worked when I had them inline. I changed my layout and didn`t need them anymore. Be nice to him as your to me.
> 
> They are ,as far as I know,the original 1122 switch by lionel.
> Everett
> View attachment 179673


HERE,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=26811


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## sanepilot (Mar 11, 2012)

*1122*

Thanks,Big Ed--have a good sunday,Everett:appl:


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Hi. Thanks for all the responses and help. I sure need it!

I have tried "the usual suspects". I have oiled the mechanisms, cleaned the rails, plastic and surrounding areas and checked my external electric connections and power source.

From Wood:


> My one suggestion for reducing the derailments is to remove the thin metal X at the foot of the frog. It is notorious for derailing engines.


Gary, your layout's looking nicer all the time!
I have taken one of Gary's pics and marked the guard that is causing the derailments.
When going around the turn, the large flange of the tinplate catches that guard plastic, lifting the engine off the track.

I won't do it till I find out,but can it be ground off of there?
Would the turnout be OK without it?









Oh, that is the turnout I have also, the black plastic one.

phillyreading, that is exactly what I have. But I wasn't sure about getting into the bottom plate or what to expect.
I'll have to get that book that Wood mentioned to get a wiring diagram.

sjm, I did oil everything external. Guess it's time to get down and dirty and get the solenoids from the inside.
Wow, servoguy really got into detail! I'm gonna take his advice too.

The one with absolutely no electrical response at all will probably need new parts.
Are they available? And again, are they cost effective?

Ed: I indeed do have 1122's, not 1122E's. There is no 1122E stamped onto the bottom plate. Just 1122, right in the center.
Here is a pic of the turnout with the cover off.


























(If you need another view,no problem,just ask)

And I did try different combinations of the insulating pins,but one in all three rails on the curved section was the only combo that worked.

Thank you for the compliment, Everett. I just try to be like everyone else here has been to me, a nice guy.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Hopefully, it will just be a broken solder joint and an easy fix. You'll know more once you get into them. I think there is a wiring diagram in one of the help stickies. I'll check later.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Ron posted: I ran my old Ives 3251 through the turnout. I think the problem is, the wheels seem to be spaced farther apart than most. Also, the flanges are larger than the newer equipment, and catch the guard rail on the inside of the curved section.
> It derails 100% of the time. Going in either direction.


If the below picture is your engine, with which I have no experience, then I would suggest it will be very difficult to get that engine to run on O27 switches. You should be able to run on O profile track but I doubt it on O27 profile, I could be completely wrong but....

The guard rail you identified is fundamental to the switch. Without the guard rail the leading truck will go straight instead of turning into the curve. Before you grind of that guard rail I would hope someone else responds about the running of a prewar Ives on O27 switches.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I'm sure it can be ground down to a point, only way to tell if it works is to try it. It isn't hitting the switch housing first right?


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Wood said:


> If the below picture is your engine, with which I have no experience, then I would suggest it will be very difficult to get that engine to run on O27 switches. You should be able to run on O profile track but I doubt it on O27 profile, I could be completely wrong but....
> 
> The guard rail you identified is fundamental to the switch. Without the guard rail the leading truck will go straight instead of turning into the curve. Before you grind of that guard rail I would hope someone else responds about the running of a prewar Ives on O27 switches.
> 
> View attachment 180001


Yep, that's the beast. It hits that guard every time.
I won't grind it off. 
(Wish my paint was as good as that one)

I would also think I could run it with no hitches, since it was basically designed for O/027 track.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> I'm sure it can be ground down to a point, only way to tell if it works is to try it. It isn't hitting the switch housing first right?


No. It does not hit the switch housing.. That guard is the only thing derailing it.

I also thought of grinding it down, but not all the way. I realize it was put there for a purpose.
But maybe a centimeter or two taken off would make a difference.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, next question , what hits the guard? Is that track bent at all? Does it clear the other switch? Let's narrow it down to see where the problem is, train or switch type or just that switch.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, next question , what hits the guard? Is that track bent at all? Does it clear the other switch? Let's narrow it down to see where the problem is, train or switch type or just that switch.


I looked hard. It's the outside front wheel, or rather the flange itself.
When making that turn, the natural spacing between the wheels lets the outer one keep moving straight instead of curving around.
That's when it hits that guard. And derails.

No, it does the exact same thing on every turnout I have.
And that was tested.
Keep in mind, that's only going over the curved section, not going down the straightaway.

No tracks are bent, or even at an incline. Nothing else is in the way.

I'm sure it's the engine's fault, for lack of a better term. But I can't stop running an engine because it won't go through a turnout.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Ron, Lionel did not produce O27 track until 1930. Your engine was manufactured between 1918 -1928. I would suggest Lionel standard O gauge profile track.


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## Ace (Mar 30, 2016)

Before you go modifying a switch to accommodate a certain train, you should be checking wheel gauge. Many of the old tinplate trains had very sloppy wheel gauge because they were often only run on a basic train-set oval with no switches. Stamped-metal tinplate wheels may also have overly thick or irregular flange profiles which don't like traditional switch frogs.

Many of the early switches (and many Marx switches) have a pivoting switch point assembly without the conventional frog. They are much more accommodating of sloppy wheel gauge for old tinplate trains, and also accommodate "fat wheel" locomotives with the big drive gears alongside the wheel flanges. Those switches also have the advantage of electrical continuity on all rails all the way through the switch, whereas Lionel O27 switches have some plastic rail and frog parts.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I was thinking that it could be guage too, but I think he found one of those trains rlthat won't go through 027 switches. I'm thinking the close proximity of the wheels too each other makes the train miss the guide strip, so it goes straight, derailing. So, it's not riding up on the guide as much as missing it all together. I can't think of a work around as I don't run 027, or Ives. And a fix for one train of expanding the guide might derail everything else you run.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Ace said:


> Many of the early switches (and many Marx switches) have a pivoting switch point assembly without the conventional frog. They are much more accommodating of sloppy wheel gauge for old tinplate trains, and also accommodate "fat wheel" locomotives with the big drive gears alongside the wheel flanges.


Agreed, the older all-metal Marx switches are much more accommodating of other makes of trains. The catalog number on those was 1590, but the number doesn't appear anywhere on the switch. Look for a Marx switch with a bright red cover over the solenoids to get an idea what they look like. When you find one of the same design that's all black, that's OK, it's metal too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Ron you have the later switches, maybe some were not marked with the E?
This is an early 1122, see the 5 arrows pointing to 5 notches?
See the corner where I put an X, the later ones has a rounded corner.
And it only has 3 notches not the 5.
Yours has the rounded corner and only 3 notches.

So yours need the insulating pins for the non derailment feature.

From the link I posted above, Yours operate like below, the first 1122's didn't require the insulating pins.
The insulating sections of the tracks have been moved (on the 1122E to the smaller inside rails and insulating pins are required to use the non-derailing feature of these switches.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Yes, I see the differences between yours and mine.
I see the 5 notches as to my three, and I have the rounded part.

As I mentioned, Ed, the turnout would not function without those insul-pins.
But I did try the pins on just the smaller sections of rail, but in the end, I needed all three rails insulated for the turnout to behave.

Just noticed: #1122 is also stamped on the plastic on the top of the solenoid cover.


sjm9911 said:


> I was thinking that it could be guage too, but I think he found one of those trains that won't go through 027 switches. I'm thinking the close proximity of the wheels too each other makes the train miss the guide strip, so it goes straight, derailing. So, it's not riding up on the guide as much as missing it all together. I can't think of a work around as I don't run 027, or Ives. And a fix for one train of expanding the guide might derail everything else you run.


I'm afraid it's the worst case scenario. The engine will not accomodate the turnouts, not the other way around.
And I also agree a fix for that engine may mess everything else up.
But one disagreement with you, sjm: I have watched it actually ride up on that plastic guard rail.
But yes, it goes straight as it's riding up on it.

Ace, you are 150% correct. The wheels on that Ives slide sideways on the tracks! They weren't meant for turnouts, they were meant to go round and round, pulling a few cars.
And the flanges are way bigger than the flanges on today's equipment.

I think what I'll do is, start my siding from a new point. On a straightaway, where the turnout cannot mess up my loco.
That solves the problem, except for me getting them to work electrically.

Gonna go to the workbench now. I'm going to tear them apart, and see if I can find any gremlins in there.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

If its just play in the wheels causing it you can gauge them to the track and then try to reduce play by placing washers on the axles evenly to hold the wheels in position. Nylon washers or even those plastic bread ties cut to fit might do it.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Update on the turnouts.

I got the right hand one to work. I took it apart. Looking inside, I saw one of the one-strand wires had broken off.
I soldered a jumper in, put the bottom plate back on and voila! The turnout works perfectly.

The left hand one is dead. Nothing wrong inside or out, so it must be the solenoids.
I know nothing about how to test them, much less have the equipment to do so.
So that will stay broken. I can always use it as a manual turnout.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Good news Ron, hoping it was that easy ( well semi easy) maybe recheck the other one, sometimes those delivery guys are rough on stuff. I had a wire once that looked connected but if you pulled on it it wasn't. Just a thought.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> Good news Ron, hoping it was that easy ( well semi easy) maybe recheck the other one, sometimes those delivery guys are rough on stuff. I had a wire once that looked connected but if you pulled on it it wasn't. Just a thought.


Nope, all wires are soldered tight. If everything else looks good, it must be something I can't see, something electrical.

Can those solenoids be replaced? It looks to me like I could just remove that unit and put in a new one.
Or does one have to replace the entire solenoid/light/sliding unit?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I wrote a post a few years ago on restoring 1122 switches. It is on this forum. You would be well advised to look it up and do what the post says to do. I have restored a number of 1122 switches, and after restoration they work very well.

The problem with the fat flanges on prewar engines can best be solved by using Marx metal switches. They are not expensive and are both manual and automatic. They do not have an anti-derail feature, but you could add that. I think if you grind away the guard rail on the 1122 switchs they will not work with post war rolling stock. 

If you were to convert to O-31 track and 022 switches, you would still have the problem with the fat flanges. Furthermore, the crossings (crossovers?) model 020 come in two sizes. One for post war rolling stock and one for pre-war rolling stock. The only way I can tell them apart is by rolling a post war car through them by hand. 

The pin in the center of the fat rail will often be loose enough to cause a resistance. Power to the switch motor comes through this pin. I usually solder the pin to the fat rail. Don't leave a large amount of solder on the joint or the pickup rollers will have trouble with it.


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## Tucgary (Sep 21, 2015)

servoguy, Would you rate the Marx switches as solid sounding when the trains go over them? The Lionel 5021/5022 I am using sound like the train is running over a can of rocks. Looking for a nice solid sound . Thanks Gary


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

> Servoguy posted: The problem with the fat flanges on prewar engines can best be solved by using Marx metal switches...... If you were to convert to O-31 track and 022 switches, you would still have the problem with the fat flanges.


That answers those questions!!!. Thank you.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Tucgary said:


> servoguy, Would you rate the Marx switches as solid sounding when the trains go over them? The Lionel 5021/5022 I am using sound like the train is running over a can of rocks. Looking for a nice solid sound . Thanks Gary


I have a pair of Marx switches on a double-reverse loop, and I wouldn't say I notice any significant difference in the sound of the switches versus the rest of the track.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Here's my Marx switcher with some plastic and tinplate cars going over 2 Marx later plastic manual switches and 2 Lionel1024s.

I can't hear any difference when the train is on regular track or the switches.


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## Tucgary (Sep 21, 2015)

Dave, Thank you for your input.
BWA, your video proves what Dave mentioned.
Thank you for taking the time. Tucgary


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Postscript: Remember how I said that the right hand turnout was the one that was "switching" on its own?
Well, just an hour ago, I almost had a fire. I didn't lose any equipment, but I lost about 8 feet of three way wire, burnt to a crisp.

I have since disconnected the wiring in that turnout, and will have to get another turnout.
The transformer, which is a separate unit from my CW-80 is undamaged.
Luckily, I had no lighting on at that time.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

RonthePirate said:


> Postscript: Remember how I said that the right hand turnout was the one that was "switching" on its own?
> Well, just an hour ago, I almost had a fire. I didn't lose any equipment, but I lost about 8 feet of three way wire, burnt to a crisp.
> 
> I have since disconnected the wiring in that turnout, and will have to get another turnout.
> ...


On a second look, it may have been a poor connection that started the meltdown.
One of the wires to the selector switch was hanging down, possibly touching the terminal below it.
And that terminal was the opposite pole.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Hi Ron,

Good decisions comes from experience and experience comes from bad decisions.

It sounds like you had a very close call on with this wiring issue. Mistakes are aplenty in any hobby but experience comes quickly. The wiring issue is clearly a sign something was wrong. The burnt wires are also another sign that your system is not protected properly. You should have some form of circuitry protection that would prevent what just happened. There is a very good thread now running and I would encourage you to read it. 

It is called ZW at risk and is located here:

http://http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=83474 

Keep sharing your experiences, good and bad, and you will learn plenty here.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Thanks, Wood. Yeah, I'm not too proud to admit when I screw up.
And this could have been a _ROYAL_ screw-up.

I did see that thread, fact is, I posted in there. Asked about my CW-80.

Trouble is, it wasn't attached to the accessories on that CW.
It's going to a transformer I got from an electrician.
It's good enough, just hasn't been protected.
That's my mistake.

There will be circuit breakers attached soon.
Before I put anything else on that transformer.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

No worries Ron. We should start a topic about everyone's worst model train horror story. If would be a hoot!!! 

Good decisions come from bad mistakes!!!!


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

I revived this ancient history thread for a few reasons.
I would like to say that, I now have my Lionel non-derail turnouts wired up and working correctly.
I also have my Marx turnouts fixed and working.

The Lionel ones are much different than other turnouts.
The wiring is so much different than other turnouts.
In short, they are things one pulls hair out from.
Thanks to Wood sending me the wiring diagram, I got them.

The Marx turnouts had to be rebuilt. The insulation had started to deteriorate, and was shorting them out.
All rails were removed and reworked.
The motors are surprisingly strong. They have a "snap' To them that I didn't expect.

So now I have my turnouts how I want them. Now I can bury this thread.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Ron, this thread may help a lot of others. The range of skill levels and experience is vast and wide in our hobby. 90% of what I have learned has been through the forum members. Were it not for the help of members I'd still be cursing those 1122 switches.


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

RonthePirate said:


> The Marx turnouts had to be rebuilt. The insulation had started to deteriorate, and was shorting them out.
> All rails were removed and reworked.
> The motors are surprisingly strong. They have a "snap' To them that I didn't expect.
> 
> So now I have my turnouts how I want them. Now I can bury this thread.


Marx will do that, surprise you from time to time. I love'em. 

This is not a thread to be buried. There is a lot of great info here.


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## Ace (Mar 30, 2016)

I've used a number of 1122 and 1122E switches and I'm not a big fan. Old switches often need to be completely disassembled and cleaned for reliable operation, and it helps to solder the crimped metal connections for better continuity.

The older 1122 switches (before the change to 1122E in early 1950's) have more plastic in the running rails. I wouldn't recommend them at all; some locos are prone to stall on them. Their only virtue is that you don't have to insert insulating fiber pins in certain rails beyond the frog, so less chance to screw that up if you don't have the original instructions.

A big disadvantage of old O27 non-derailing electric switches is that they draw track power whenever metal wheels with metal axles are on the switch. Don't park trains there! And if you want more reliable non-derailing function, it's advisable to convert them from track power to fixed voltage input for the solenoids. In hindsight, I now think that's more trouble than it's worth. Been there done that.

I now have only one operating 1122 switch on my O27 layout, with a manual electrical switch for the fixed-voltage switch machine power. I don't like seeing wheel sparks every time a train hits the switch. Instead, I've used some regular standard-O O22 switches on my O27 layout mainlines where the non-derailing function is most useful. It just requires spreading the web of O27 rails to accept a standard-O track pin, and shimming the O27 track up to match the height of the O22 switches.

Manual O27 switches #1022 are somewhat useful for spur tracks because they will automatically cut the center-rail power to the track that is not lined up.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Wood said:


> Ron, this thread may help a lot of others. The range of skill levels and experience is vast and wide in our hobby. 90% of what I have learned has been through the forum members. Were it not for the help of members I'd still be cursing those 1122 switches.


That's so true Wood. You guys have helped me out sometimes without knowing you did. If it weren't for MTF and members from my local club I probably would have gotten rid of everything and walked away from the hobby. I'm not known for my long range patience.


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