# drawing board time again,



## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi,

my space is 8x13, my basic shape is the letter G with 30". wall is on two sides and the other two open to walkway space, this gives me really tight corners for HO or a nice N. now the question is if I close off the track to make an O shape, is it better to span it with a removable leaf or a 30" bridge? I'm going steam and really don't care to have a modern steel truss type bridge, but can deal with a 'land bridge'. the main question is how a removable piece taken in and out alot will handle wear and tear. I am leaning to HO size engines, but would like to have a bigger engine if possible( ergo N or a nice bridge).

and how much space do you reccomend to have in the middle for a stool and comfortable moving around space, a cockpit this shouldn't be, I'm not overweight, but certainly not a hobbit. 

and would you reccomend a 30" side wall layout or 36"?


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

For most people,30 in. is the longest acceptable reach to be able to work on the layout with a certain degree of comfort so it is the largest recommended width for areas of the layout that are against walls or other restraints.Obviously,the layout can be made larger in areas that can be reached from both sides.

Aisles have the same rules...human body dimensions...while an 18" aisle could be enough for maintenance work and an occasional derailment,it is pretty tight if you plan to spend a lot of time there like operating,etc.Then 24" and even 30" aren't excessive aisle widths.

Another factor to consider while designing is height...the higher the layout the shorter the reach and vice versa.I like to see trains rolling at near eye level when sitting on my favorite stool so I've set my layout height at 42".Obviously the height will vary depending who is going to operate and maitain the layout.Will you be alone?Will children also operate?Do you mind using a small stand to work on further areas?A few questions you'll have to decide the answers yourself.

Having a removeable section to access the center aisle is a nice idea but a hinged section is even better.Constantly removing a section to go through and then turn around and reinstalling it gets bothersome after a while.On the other hand,closing a section behind you is much simpler.Two different designs come to my mind,none is perfect though.Materials (wood,metals,etc) do shink and expand with temperature and humidity changes so precise alignments are often hard to maintain.You could either have a section that opens horizontally like a door or vertically.Personally I favor the swing-up style.Scenery detailing has to be kept minimal around the hinges but you don't lose any floor space for opening clearances.

Whatever design you chose,you will need a very stiff structure at both ends to have a successful openable section.I've attempted such a venture on the club's layout but never could achieve good results because the layout did react to temperature and humidity all the time.The guys didn't want to invest to stiffen the layout so I finally nailed it shut.The biggest problem is keeping good track alignment when both ends meet and unfortunately,N scale isn't too forgiving with misalignments.I'm not saying it can't be done,simply keep dimensions and weight of the openable section to a minimum and be very careful building it.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

thanks alot, I'd not considered a hinged one. now I have hope for a HO without needing 12" radius, ^_^


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I'll be going with a hinged door type swing-out when I build the other part of my layout. Just make sure you wire in a power cut-off to prevent trains from running over the edge in case the door is open.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

You can use a sash window lock to help keep it in alignment too.
And like Scott said wire it with micro switches and gaps to prevent an Evel Knievel moment!


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Vixen as Little Red Riding Hood :lol_hitting: :laugh:  :laugh: :appl::appl:
Can't get off the floor from laughing!
Bob


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I have serious doubts that any HO (may be Geep's) can handle 12 in. radius curves.I model N scale and am actually building a layout with 15 in. minimal curves to accomodate my articulateds.N scale minimal curves are 9 3/4 in. so HO curves should be about twice this,and yet you'll likely have to forget about steamers.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Brakeman Jake said:


> I have serious doubts that any HO (may be Geep's) can handle 12 in. radius curves.I model N scale and am actually building a layout with 15 in. minimal curves to accomodate my articulateds.N scale minimal curves are 9 3/4 in. so HO curves should be about twice this,and yet you'll likely have to forget about steamers.


You've never seen Choo choo's collection.

HOn3 would probably go through a 12in radius. I think the 8x13 space is better for N.

I like the G shaped layout idea. I'd have the inner part of the G be double sided with a backdrop to maximize the mainline run and would have a return loop on the top part of the G. (Actually both "ends" of the line would be at the top of the G. I'd go with a 2 level design in this space in N if I were to do it. You don't need a ton of vertical separation for it to work well for N-scale. 12" spacing between the levels would be plenty for a couple nice height scenes.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

I've been wondering what the helix was up to saturday, when the store guy told me about going to a different level. while the extra level might be good for most, I think probably not for me. dang, thanks sstlaure, now im thinking of N again, gaah. ^_^ choo choo's short trains did look good, he even has a nice goat, and I could pull a few short ore cars with that, and the detail on HO is nice, but the N does have advantage, lol. good thing the garage isn't converted to a family room yet. still time to think, plan, decide, re-decide, re-re-decide, haha.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

Here's a trail balloon, expecting it to be shot at, lol. I'm not sure which way I want to connect the loop ends. I figure a yard of some sort at the ends, with the middle of the smaller loops being more mountain for the ore/logging camps. any thoughts would be nice. also, just how many spurs would you expect to find here, I don't think one every foot would do, haha. I do want to do a fair amount of operations, and the loops there for the grandkids to watch. 

also I see some people post the photo and others have to post the linkage, how do I post as a photo, so you can see it without having to click the link? still struggling getting into the 21st century on some things, ^_^ i remember when you watched a test pattern sat morning after the tv warmed up, haha.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

You have a very nice benchwork shape to start with.Aisles are sufficient and the 30 in. sections(wich I believe are along walls) should be workable.Now start sketching your plan,erasing and redoing as ideas come along,and after you've reached a preliminary drawing that reflect your general interests,post it so that forum members can add their ideas to yours.Don't be surprised if you refresh your design a few times before you actually start building......


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Where it shows your .jpg file in the post, right click and "Copy Shortcut", then paste that shortcut text into a post and put







after it.










I think I would thin the bottom of the G and inflate the inner part so that you can get a loop going up in there.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Here's a really quick sketch. With N-scale you'd have plenty of run to gain enough rise to cross the tracks above grade, and you could put a scenic divider up the inner leg of the G to get a couple scenes out of that section


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

ah, thanks, hadn't thought of that. I was guessing a nice fat piece of layout was better than thinner, (for no particular reason, lol). Those dang fat curves are still a pain in the posterior, when I ran across choo choo's rail bending technique, and still loving his mantua goat engine. I think solves my biggest problems. now to figure out how to get a yard in there, as they take footage to get the branching down. the anyrail is nice, but the pieces don't quite matchup to the atlas layout book. 

yee haw, full steam ahead. and the goat is dcc and sound for only $200, ahhhh, life is sweet.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You don't have to pre-bend flex track. I simply put glue on every 3rd or 4th tie and tack it down with a thumbtack every 3 inches or so. The glue will hold the curve and it will ooze up into the holes in the bottoms of the ties and grip the rail. In the sketch that I did you could easily have the branch go under the mainline down onto your yard peninsula and start the branching early. I made cardboard radius templates to get my curves drawn down on the plyboard. (Punch holes up the centerline and you can mark right through it with a sharpie marker.

Most of my layout is on 24" deep shelves and even in HO you can do quite a bit, with N you can go crazy with scenery and details in that depth.

I looked at a ton of different layouts before I started designing mine. The more you look, the more ideas you'll get.


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## lajry (Aug 4, 2011)

Brakeman Jake said:


> I have serious doubts that any HO (may be Geep's) can handle 12 in. radius curves.I model N scale and am actually building a layout with 15 in. minimal curves to accommodate my articulateds.N scale minimal curves are 9 3/4 in. so HO curves should be about twice this,and yet you'll likely have to forget about steamers.


My layout is going to be based on the Los Angeles Junction Ry. They have curves as small as 85 degrees & #3 switches. So laid down a half circle 10" curve and ran an Atlas S-2 & an Athearn CF-7 plus a 40' boxcar around it several times w/ no derailments! But couldn't do it w/ a 50'er. Everything had standard length Kadee #148s. Here's a link to the Free Mo table on HO scale Degree of curves to radius's in inch equivalents:
http://www.trainweb.org/freemoslo/Modules/Tips-and-Techniques/degrees_of_curve_to_radius.htm 
BTW the narrow gauge Uintah Ry had 65 degree curves on a 7.5% grade & they ran 2-6-6-2s on it. So there's probably more prototype RRs that had similar small curves than 15" HO scale especially switching & narrow gauge RRs.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

my solid preference is for steam, I'm not against large locomotives, but do love the shorties, and my space isn't as large as I'd like, but I have to trade train tracks for wifes love, haha. I'm not out for 10" radius just because, but because turning in 30" is rough.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

OK...just an idea thrown in...The opening at the ends of your G shape is going to be your access aisle,not really a place where you'd likely stand much.Now,what if you reduced it from 30 in. to 24 in.(or 18 in.) and designed a swing section to bridge these ends?This "lift-up"(or swing out) section could even be double-tracked so you could have continuous runs around your layout and likely run most anything(in N or HO) as they wouldn't have to do a 180 degree turn where the layout isn't fairly wide enough.

There's another option if the opening section idea seems too complex...you could increase the width of the G shape ends to let's say 36",sort of a blob.That would give you that much more for your turnaround track and you'd still be able to enter the layout easy.One end would reduce your aisle to 24"(still enough) and the other end could be enlarged to 36" towards the inside,wich wouldn't be a problem since I understand that this end can be worked on from both sides.An extra six inches can do wonders.Just crazy ideas......


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

next trial balloon, ah, hey, a zepplin factory, next to my lead ore mine, but I had always thought wider was better for the up against the wall, so I went 24" which gave me more width below for larger turns. hmm, now one question, which direction is my train going? seems to be clockwise so I can back into the spurs, is that right? 

and while lift ups, or hinges seem fine, after back surgery, stooping isn't all that nice. not that I don't stoop low go pack in a few more trains, ^_^ when the wife isn't looking. <grins> I'm glad she is supportive. anyhow, I think this shape is looking better. the other side I want elevation for mountain mines.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

I think I should call the railroad the Morpheus Line, lol. This way my mtn loop at the right can be 12" above the base line. I was thinking one of those trestle curves. My main concerns now are how many spurs should I put in and is it getting to spaghettish. I do like the long continuous curve, but is it a bang for buck thing. Would more spurs be worth a smaller loop and more operation? 15" radius min here, but I think the Mantua goat is still my main engine. I just hope it's a good quality engine.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I think it looks good....you're thinking N correct?

Not much room for a yard unless you put it in the wharf area. (For a double-ended yard at least.) You could put one inside the lower RH loop if it's single ended.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

I also did a quick sketch of an idea or two. This gives you the ability to get good climb on the grade, without being too steap. It also gives you plenty of industry branches and a small yard too.


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

I've been leaning heavily towards HO of late, the radius was an issue early on, then Choo choo's small radius caught my eye, ^_^ , but seeing a nice HO in the store size wise is hard to get over, yes, size does matter, lol. so then it was a nice long track for continual running. but operations is rearing it's head, and you need turnouts, spurs, and such, which is hard to fit in with long windy HO, so now I pared down one loop and put in spurs. not sure if I over did the spurs or not. I moved the harbor around the corner. so here is the latest. so chime in if it's overdone on spurs? trying to leave enough room for buildings which is just as important as track. 18" radius this time


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## MrDuane (Oct 21, 2011)

the last one only had one bridge, so here's two other thoughts. more bridges, and one with a long hill climb to a mine. spurs not added yet. trying to find a middle ground, wife wants passing trains, and unsure just when it looks to cramped from a schematic and how many spurs are too many.


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