# Is interest in HO declining?



## Stultus (Mar 24, 2014)

Just a thought...
I went to the local train club swap meeting a few weeks ago and everything was 98% Lionel or O scale.
My local brick and mortar model train shop is 75% N scale.
Even my local Hobby Lobby is 80% N scale too.

Hopefully this is just observer error hwell:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I've been to several train shows during 2015.

0 gauge is always a large part of the vendor floor. Next would
be HO however, then N. There is usually a decent display of
S gauge and G locos and cars.

However, if you go to a Train Collectors show, you will see, as I did a couple
months ago, mostly 0 gauge vendors. There was only a couple tables of HO.

The operating layouts however are dominated by HO and N. While
you usually do see an 0 and also an S layout they are
often quite small in comparison.

I wouldn't say HO is declining, it just takes less vendor space to display
the same number of train cars as compared to 0 and the big Lionels.

Don


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

I am not sure about that. In Austin, there are only 4 shops that sells HO material, which two of them is a chain. Also, there is Hobby Lobby but I don't count them since I rarely go there for HO material. 

As far as I know, there is no HO club that I know of. I heard that there is club for O but I was not interested to go there at all. They do not have official place at all. They have schedule for meetings or events, I think. Also, for sure, there is N club, in Austin but I had not check them. I browsed on NMRA website for these clubs. I know that there is one for HO in Dallas. I hadn't get a chance to drive up north yet. Also, I know that there is one in small town outside of Dallas area. They have very nice website and big layout as I had browsed on their photos and their working on the layout. 

Just found out that there is an event for all scales in San Antonio on February 20 & 21, this year. Will consider to go there.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Here one of the LHS is selling out all his N scale and greatly reducing the O scale in an effort to make room for more HO scale items. He says he can order whatever is needed but the items that sell most are what he stocks. At the shows I go to for used items HO and O are close to the same. Followed by N then everything else. For displays there is normally 1 or 2 S, several N, and multiple HO. Two of the shows always have live steam too. One has a large Lego Scale display each year, kids love that. The last show I went to has all of that plus as you walked in had one table with 2 Z and 1 T scale layout, each confined to a case.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Going purely from my own experience, I would say not. At the Amherst Railroad Hobby Show (two days away, YAY!), one of the largest in the country, the predominance is still pretty much HO; say about 60% HO, with N and O a distant second.

I would also say that a swap meet isn't a good place to judge. I think the O scale stuff is more of what people are looking for in those types of events. Plus, the real measure wouldn't be square footage, or even number of vendors, but number of sales.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Going purely from my own experience, I would say not. At the Amherst Railroad Hobby Show (two days away, YAY!), one of the largest in the country, the predominance is still pretty much HO; say about 60% HO, with N and O a distant second.
> 
> I would also say that a swap meet isn't a good place to judge. I think the O scale stuff is more of what people are looking for in those types of events


Actually, the truth be told, all those old guys in O scale are selling stuff off before they kick the bucket....that's why you see more O scale for sale right now.....:laugh::laugh:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> Actually, the truth be told, all those old guys in O scale are selling stuff off before they kick the bucket....that's why you see more O scale for sale right now.....:laugh::laugh:


Not gonna touch that with a 39-1/2 foot pole!


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

*The rumors of its death are greatly exagerated!!*

Stultus my man...It is very vibrant and strong!! We have more HO shops in the Green Bay/ Appleton area(which also carry the smaller scales) than O scale/Lionel...by a huge margin. That Old_Hobo is a rabble rouser...but ya know you can find more used O scale stuff in Antique stores because they come from Estate sales and people aren't stupid as you can make a bundle on Pre-Post War Steam even Diesel so they are more visible. I go to Trainfest and The Title Town Train show in Wisconsin and 70 pct. of show items are HO scale its just the huge visibility of Oscale that makes it stick out...whatever jerks yer gerkin!!:laugh::laugh:


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i have no local hobby shops, but here on this forum the number of HO related posts hasn't changed much, but the influx of new members are a large portion O scale, and total posts have gone up greatly .. in my opinion it's a good thing that the forum is growing ..
,,
enjoy  ..


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

wvgca said:


> i have no local hobby shops, but here on this forum the number of HO related posts hasn't changed much, but the influx of new members are a large portion O scale, and total posts have gone up greatly .. in my opinion it's a good thing that the forum is growing ..
> ,,
> enjoy  ..


Yeah wvgca, with the Exodus from the OGR forum it made the HO guys a little shell shocked, but like anything its cyclical...we usually get more members this time of year with Christmas recharging folks appreciation for the hobby. O scale being huge at Christmas time, it gets alot of exposure. Variety is the spice of life and I have actually started my Mid Winter maintenance and project planning for Layout expansion on our HO Layout after putting the Christmas OOO set away...there is ALWAYS something to do no matter what the scale is!!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

I think H.O. scale will drop out of popularity in the coming years as newer HO equipment requires ever broader curves to run and continue to take up more space than ever. It's virtually impossible to find new equipment that will run on 15" radius curves nowadays yet when you look back on John Allen's first Gorre and Daphetid, he has 13" radius curve on there if I recall. 

Space is getting more expensive in America, day by day. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 2 decades N scale surpasses HO. 

Honestly I really don't know why O-gauge is still popular. I love O-gauge don't get me wrong, but most nice O-gauge locomotives cost about as much car so they can keep it lol!:laugh:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

/6 matt said:


> I think H.O. scale will drop out of popularity in the coming years as newer HO equipment requires ever broader curves to run and continue to take up more space than ever. It's virtually impossible to find new equipment that will run on 15" radius curves nowadays yet when you look back on John Allen's first Gorre and Daphetid, he has 13" radius curve on there if I recall.
> 
> Space is getting more expensive in America, day by day. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 2 decades N scale surpasses HO.
> 
> Honestly I really don't know why O-gauge is still popular. I love O-gauge don't get me wrong, but most nice O-gauge locomotives cost about as much car so they can keep it lol!:laugh:


I would say that one of the things driving broader curves is the size of modern equipment. The prototype stuff is getting bigger all the time, and our models are following suit.

When John Allen built the first Gorre and Daphetid, most rolling stock was 40' long (even passenger cars were shorter) and although big steam and some 6 axle diesels existed, manufacturers were interested in the "toy train" market and often made blind drivers and axles with a lot of play in them to accept those smaller curves. A lot of modelers today insist upon better realism and don't tolerate these design concessions.


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## Hudson J1e (Nov 19, 2015)

Hi, I'm one of the recent folks who came over from OGR although I still post there on occasion. I found this thread very interesting as I have often seen O scale guys say the same thing. I am mostly O scale (2 Rail) but lately my interest in HO has been growing. I was in HO in the late '80s and early '90s. I don't believe HO will some day lose its number one spot. There's just too much available and as guys get older N scale becomes a lot harder to see. I have noticed that HO would seems to me to be a lot more expensive than I remember it. And speaking of costs the most expensive locomotive I ever bought new was $1,200. I don't think I could buy a good car for that price. Yeah, maybe a beater that needs work but not a good car. Most of my locomotives I bought second hand as I am on a budget but I don't believe I need as many as I would for an HO layout of the same size. I'm almost to the point where I won't need anymore!


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## leadsled (Dec 25, 2014)

I am no expert on Model Trains being a newbie as it were, but I do have other hobbies.
I belong to a member of forums on photography, aviation, plastic models, etc... It seem to be every once in a while someone posts a thread about (your subject here) dieing off.

I think because of our recent economic upheaval alot of companies that supply models whether they be plastic or model railroads, etc... had to reinvent themselves to survive.

At the same time I have noticed alot of people of my age who grew up playing with trains in the 70s and 80s, as well as building models have a renewed interest in these subjects.

I see alot of niche manufacturers specializing in certain subjects and typically these companies do a much better job of researching and offering detailed models of whatever the subject may be!

back to the renewed interest, a company called Round 2 is now releasing plastic models that they used to be readily available years ago. Round 2 has purchased several modeling companies to do so such as AMT, MPC, Lindbergh, Polar Lights, etc...

It used to be there were hobby shops in quite a few places, but thanks to a combination of things there are not that many. 

Times have changed but I think the hobby is in good shape, I never imagined there were so many ways you could model HO!! I think the hobby will be around for quite some time!


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Hudson J1e said:


> And speaking of costs the most expensive locomotive I ever bought new was $1,200. I don't think I could buy a good car for that price. Yeah, maybe a beater that needs work but not a good car.










Paid $1,000. No haggling, nor bartering, no special deal, I just paid the full asking price. Been driving it every day for 3 years with no breakdowns. Only routine maintenance. And the previous owner walked away with a down payment for a soon to be needed minivan.

So yeah, spending even close to 1/4 of that for a train is a little bit of a stretch for me. But then again I'm 22 and broke so...

Edit: I forgot I did have to change the throwout bearing after I bought it, but that only cost $35 if I recall correctly and a day of work.


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## Hudson J1e (Nov 19, 2015)

/6 Matt, you got real lucky. Good vehicles for $1,000 are extremely rare in my neck of the woods in NJ. I have seen them on occasion but they always come around when I don't need them. A truck like that around here would probably be very rusty. Besides I couldn't use a truck like that to commute to work the cost of fuel would kill me. 

I don't have big pockets. To pay for that locomotive I put a little aside every paycheck plus I use any monetary gifts I get for my birthday or Christmas and I was still $300 short that I put on my CC. Sometimes I feel that theses trains are almost like an addiction. That's why I try very hard to stick with the road name I collect. For the most part I have been successful with that. 

Just in case your handle means you like the Chrysler Slant Six. I am a member of "The Slant Six Club" in my area. I used to own a Plymouth Scamp with a /6 but I sold it. I stayed in the club because owning a /6 is not a requirement and people are really nice. I have two other Mopars.

Did you install a new clutch while you had the truck apart? I certainly would have. It's a lot of work doing a thowout bearing. Well, you're young. I did stuff like that when I was young. Now, at 50, I don't like doing jobs like that twice.

Back to the topic at hand. I agree with leadsled. Sometimes folks see something and think the end is near. It happens much more often in O Scale. I think HO is going strong and will continue to do so.

All opinion.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Hey Hudson I'll pm you, i don't wanna highjack but I do totally wanna hear about that Scamp! 

Back to it, do you guys see hope for even just the hobby itself to carry on? I ask because I don't get out to the hows or the clubs to see if there are other young folks in it. It seems like most of my peers are caught up in video games though.


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## johnfl68 (Feb 1, 2015)

I think there are too many factors at play here, and many other locations. What may seem like a decline one place may not hold true elsewhere.

Here in Orlando, there were a few hobby shops catering to various scales, and it slowly dwindled to just one now that has been long established (Colonial Photo and Hobby).

To me, I just think HO isn't that prevalent in this part of the country right now. A lot of "snow birds" (no offense) in Florida, and I am sure O scale is more popular with that age group. That combined with no basements for the most part in this area, make the hobby not as prevalent as perhaps other parts of the country.

I travel for work sometimes, and often try to hit up other local shops where I will be when I have time. For instance Rail Yard Hobby Shop in Roanoke VA and Charles Ro Supply in Boston MA both seemed to have quite a bit of floor space and stock in HO scale compared to other scales.

Like with many things, many people are purchasing more online then in local stores. I try to buy from small shops when I can, but sometimes they can't get what I want, or can't affordably get what I want. It's easier to find what I am looking for and for a good price online.

Some small shops are better at keeping customers happy and holding their own then others, and are still doing well. Others closed shop for probably several different combined reasons. 

So I don't think interest is declining, just the longstanding model of how people buy in this hobby has changed.


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Same here, I shop locally when I can. I know one shop that can sell lot of used rolling stocks and fix locos and sell them as well. The said shop do sell Kato, Peco and Atlas as I browse around them. They do provide discount at their will, depend on how much stuff that I buy. Other shops sell Peco and Atlas tracks and building materials. Last shop, which is the farest from my home, they sell lot of Wathers and Kabee parts and they do sell S gauge stuff, which I was surprised to see that gauge.


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## johnfl68 (Feb 1, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> I would say that one of the things driving broader curves is the size of modern equipment. The prototype stuff is getting bigger all the time, and our models are following suit.


Anyone running a Schnabel Car on their layout, or thinking about it? 








Only 27-1/2" long and needs 22" radius or larger curves and lots of room on the curves as it swings wide.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm not really qualified to comment on the popularity of HO as its a minority interest I my home country the UK but there OO, which uses the same track but models are to 1:76, continues to dominate, but there has been quite a big rise in the popularity of N. This of course is due to the smaller house sizes there. Judging by the amount of trade support fo HO I would say its popularity is not on the wane.

Nice truck /6matt. Does it comply on emissions? Do you have to have it tested for roadworthiness every year or so by law?


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

This is an interesting question. I probably started out like most people with Lionel trains, but moved to HO scale at around 10 as I could have a permanent layout in the back of my dads heated shop. It was the typical early Varney and Tyco stuff from the mid 40's. I liked it because I could have a longer train run and the HO scale didn't have the center rail. 

When I got out of the service, I was stuck in an apartment so N scale was the only scale that would work. I moved back to Montana in 1977 and incorporated my little N scale module into a fairly good size layout with over 11 scale miles of main line track. 

ONE PROBLEM. The N scale locomotives of that time for the most part were rather crude and not very reliable. Out of 20 some locomotives, only a few Trix locomotives were worth a darn. The N scale layout was torn out and I moved on to HO scale. 

Yhe locomotives of the early 80's weren't anywhere as good as they are today, but the old Athearn locomotives could be tweaked and made into reliable units. The first thing was to get rid of the old sintered iron wheels and replace them with nickel silver wheels. I ended up replacing the old Athearn motors with NWSL can motors and hard wiring them to the trucks. What a difference that made. They ran as good as anything new on the market today. Still have them and they're still in service. 

In the mid 80's Atlas brough out their early Alcos in the RS series. I ended up with over a dozen which were custom painted and detailed for my freelance railroad. They're also still in service and running like new. 

Over 30 years have passed since I started my current layout and I am very happy that I made the move to HO scale. More locomotives, and also better running ones are available, plus the availability of structure kits are more numerous and this makes kitbashing more fun. Also I enjoy detailing scenes and there are so many items available for this, plus as I'm getting older, I can actually see them. 

Now to modern N scale. I know of no modelers in HO scale in my area, but there is a small group of N scalers that have a modular layout that the set up for public display in malls, libraries and other places and I am amazed at how well the modern locomotives run, not like the garbage I had years back in N scale. So much more is available today in N scale. Looking at posts on this forum and others I have seen some fantastic N scale layouts. Some of them I had to take a second and third look at because they were done so well. 

N scale does have it's advantages as so much more can be done in a smaller space. Broader curves can be had by using flex track making modern diesels and passenger equipment look so much better than running something on a 15" radius curve in HO scale. With many people living in apartment and smaller homes, N scale gives them the ability to have an excellent layout in a lot smaller space. 

Not everyone is lucky like I am to have a basement available with plenty of room and I can see N scale moving up in the future. 
Now that I am older and the old eyeballs aren't quite as good as they used to be, I am glad that I am into HO scale. 

I have also noted that in numerous polls including ones in model railroad magazines, HO scale is the most popular scale


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

I can understand why it need 22" radius or larger curves because of hang out that it could hit something on smaller radii. 

Who want to shell out couple hundreds bucks on this? I would like to buy it but not that much moolah!


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Cycleops said:


> Nice truck /6matt. Does it comply on emissions? Do you have to have it tested for roadworthiness every year or so by law?


Thanks Cyclops. In the US, emission testing and safety inspections are deregulated to state level D.O.T. discretion. In my state, North Carolina, the Department of Transportation requires 1996 and newer to be tested yearly and conform to OBD II emission standards. Any vehicle older than 1996 model year is emission exempt. Any vehicle under under 35 years old is required to pass yearly safety inspections. So being a '78 I'm exempt from both.


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

At first, I thought emission regulations for the locomotives! 

Nice! In Texas, every vehicle has to be inspected annually, except for the new cars. New cars have to be inspected in two years then annually. 

There are very few counties that have different regulations, than rest of the counties.

However, this is going off the point from the subject of the thread.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Well you see, the interest in HO is declining because there aren't enough Genset locomotives. Too much smoke unit pollution you know.:lol_hitting:


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## JimL (Aug 16, 2015)

Its been my impression that HO is at least holding steady, if not growing. And, O is shrinking. I don't know anything about N.

I think that if a HO-dominant hobby shop went out of business, it was because they didn't embrace the internet at all. 

While I do know of O-dominant shops that closed up because of a shrinking customer base, in addition to the competition of the large resellers.

I am coming back to HO full time from O because of the common reasons ..... cost, space, model availability, etc. I am very enthusiastic with what I see ... like others I speak to.

About cost, I enjoy 4-axle diesel switchers. I just quickly looked at one of the very largest, online discounters. Lionel's scale O ALCO S2, with their wonderful Legacy control/sound system, is being sold for $600. The Atlas HO S2, with Master Line level detail and Loksound control/sound, sells for $170.

Happy Railroading.


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## 2869ral (Dec 15, 2015)

bluenavigator said:


> At first, I thought emission regulations for the locomotives!
> 
> Nice! In Texas, every vehicle has to be inspected annually, except for the new cars. New cars have to be inspected in two years then annually.
> 
> ...


California requires BNSF locomotives to pass emmissions. Also they tax the heck out of the fuel when BNSF fuels their locomotives in that State. Back to the subject at hand, i dont see HO declining. Ive been doing HO for 40 years now i never got into N scale because there wasnt a lot of accessories, until around 15 years ago or so. I thought about it a lot, WOW i could have a huge N scale layout in the room i had my HO in. Im glad i stayed with HO, in my mid 40s my eyes changed a lot. HO is hard enough to see now. N scale would be a nightmare for me. Im sure HO will be going strong for a long time.


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## Hudson J1e (Nov 19, 2015)

JimL said:


> About cost, I enjoy 4-axle diesel switchers. I just quickly looked at one of the very largest, online discounters. Lionel's scale O ALCO S2, with their wonderful Legacy control/sound system, is being sold for $600. The Atlas HO S2, with Master Line level detail and Loksound control/sound, sells for $170.
> 
> Happy Railroading.


Well, the MTH version is $200 cheaper ($399 MSRP). Of course that's still more than $170 but if I were big into HO I would probably be buying twice or three times as many locomotives as I do now especially if locomotives I really like, such as a GP9, were offered in multiple road numbers. In HO one has the room to consist 3 or 4 locomotives and they also have the space in their train room for more storage on the walls and under the layout than the O scale guy who has the same amount of space. Does the average HO scale enthusiast buy more in quantity than the average O scale guy? I don't know, but my budget would be the same whether I went to HO or stayed in O. I know I would be buying more (in numbers) of locomotives. So, IMHO I never did buy into the "locomotives in HO are huge price savings over O." Heck, I just bought a new Walthers HO caboose for $45 last week. Two weeks before that I bought a new O scale caboose and it was only $20 more. The major reason to go HO over O, again my opinion is space and higher quality equipment. There's no getting away from the fact that one can do a lot more in the same space with HO. 

I think the greatest price difference between HO and O is the track. With the exception of Gargraves flex track, Lionel and other O gauge track prices are (IMHO) high. I am a 2 railer so I am not forced to pay Lionel's prices but if I want to build a turnout from scratch the materials alone will cost me about $28 and that's with me doing all the labor. I have a friend who is building a very large layout in HO. I saw that he was scratch building some of his turnouts so I asked him about that and he said,"I am not paying $30 for a turnout!" I WISH I could pay $30 for an O scale (2 Rail) turnout!!! In O scale they cost between $80 and $100 each. Sure I will need less turnouts than a comparable HO layout but will I need 2/3 less? I doubt it. O Scale flex track (again 2 Rail) is $4.17 per foot! And that's if you are lucky enough to get a box of Atlas flex for $250. 

You HO guys are lucky! Enjoy yourselves!


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## dsertdog56 (Oct 26, 2014)

Is HO declining? Depends on the area. Around here it is, bit that's model railroading in general. R/C cars and trucks are en vogue.

You can get a smattering of basic material from one local source and that's about all. The last "trains only" shop closed about 3 years ago.

We have a local club but their membership fee weeds out the poor folk, like me. Their modular layout likely runs DCC. I see the train show is coming up on Valentines day weekend. Gads...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

dsertdog56 said:


> Is HO declining? Depends on the area. Around here it is, bit that's model railroading in general. R/C cars and trucks are en vogue.
> 
> You can get a smattering of basic material from one local source and that's about all. The last "trains only" shop closed about 3 years ago.
> 
> We have a local club but their membership fee weeds out the poor folk, like me. Their modular layout likely runs DCC. I see the train show is coming up on Valentines day weekend. Gads...


The decline of hobby shops doesn't necessarily equate to a decline in interest. I see a lot of hobby shops racing into R/C and drones. Doesn't mean it's selling; it just means that's what their owners think is could be the next big thing. The train stuff may never have sold that well to begin with.

And you already identified the reason for the club's declining membership. It isn't that people aren't interested, it's that they can't afford to join.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> The decline of hobby shops doesn't necessarily equate to a decline in interest. I see a lot of hobby shops racing into R/C and drones. Doesn't mean it's selling; it just means that's what their owners think is could be the next big thing. The train stuff may never have sold that well to begin with.
> 
> And you already identified the reason for the club's declining membership. It isn't that people aren't interested, it's that they can't afford to join.


Around here, HO is definitely not on the decline, it is as strong as it has ever been. This forum is not an accurate indicator of relative popularity due to the massive influx of people from the OGR forum, which skews the popularity of three rail O. I recently exited my side excursion in three rail O scale, and I don't miss the cost, and lack of availability of models compared to HO. Just about any car or locomotive I can imagine are available in HO either in RTR, resin kits, brass, or in something really close to what I want to kit bash.

N Scale has also really caught on, and I am amazed by the running qualities of the current locomotives, and the availability of equipment. One of these days, when the HO railroad is farther along, I may play a bit with it. I'd like to make a resin kit model of a Northern Pacific W-3 and W-5 mikado, just to see how hard it is to work in the scale, and how well I can get it to run.  

Around here, club membership seems to have fallen off from what I believe was the peak thru the mid 1970s thru the early 1990s. Probably economics have something to do with it, but I think it is the reduction of the younger generation coming into the model railroad hobby. It is still a popular, hobby, but not what is was 20 or more years ago.

I am fortunate to have a great hobby shop close to me, Timberline Hobbies. He caters to HO and N. Small shop, will order anything, gives discounts to great customers. Besides, he will be part of my regular operating crew when we get back to proto-op sessions in about one month. 

Regards, 
GNNPNUT


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