# More Newb questions, Viaduct



## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Evening,
I just added the Kato V-2 Viaduct kit to my M-1 starter kit. I have double and triple checked that the correct supports are in the correct places, and that they are seated properly.

My existing set which normally pulls 18 cars (all I have right now) on the flat with no trouble, could barely haul 5 cars up the hill before the wheels broke loose and just spun. I spent a great deal of time tonight adding cardstock shims under the regular track leading up to the incline. At this point, I can haul 13 cars up, but it comes close to stopping. I have my kato controller at the point where the black ends and the red starts.

Questions:

1) The engine is a kato F7 (Bluebonnet) Is 13 cars with great difficulty about right for the incline? Or should I be doing better? I don't know exactly what the incline is. I thought it would work better coming from Kato.

2) Kato says not to run the controller at high speeds for long times. But they don't define high speed or long time. As I said, I was running it right at the "red line." Any idea how far into the red area, and for how long I can safely run?

Thanks guys.


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## Viperjim1 (Mar 19, 2015)

*Tough pull*

Depending on the length of your layout which probably is about 5 feet long might still be to steep of a grade as a good grade is 2% and you may be at 3 to 4 which is a tough pull. Try and look up grade calculations for n scale and should give you distance per rise, I can't remember the formula.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

A 2% grade means that a 2 in. climb will need 100 in. of straight track leading to it.Even with a smooth 2% climb,locos all have their limits as to what they can pull,thus the reason for more locos ahead of a train.


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Does that mean the 2 inches of incline is spread across the 100 straightaway inches? Or does it mean 100 inches of flat straight track before the 2% grade starts? Either way, I have nothing close to 100 inches of straightaway.

Either way, it sounds like too much incline for my set. So I'm guessing my 13 cars on one Loco is probably as good as it's going to get before adding another Loco.



Brakeman Jake said:


> A 2% grade means that a 2 in. climb will need 100 in. of straight track leading to it.Even with a smooth 2% climb,locos all have their limits as to what they can pull,thus the reason for more locos ahead of a train.


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks for the help guys. I looked up the formula, and found out the grade.

Out of the box, the grade is 3.3% Disappointed that Kato designed it that way.

With my finagling to get 13 cars up the grade, the grade is 2.6%

To start the grade farther out than I do now will not fit well into my plans for the layout. So I'm going to bite the bullet and live with 2.6%, and buy a second engine. LOL Tough decision (NOT!) :laugh:


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Adding a curve within a grade will add substantially to the pulling effort required from the loco(s) to reach the top of the hill.So that a calculated 2% climb may well equal 3-4% or more when curves are added to the equation.


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

It heads up a straight section, then a 90*, a straight, then another 90*. Gave me an excuse to order a second engine  But I'm still a little mad at Kato for selling me something (and not cheap) that doesn't work well. All their other stuff has been top notch so far.



Brakeman Jake said:


> Adding a curve within a grade will add substantially to the pulling effort required from the loco(s) to reach the top of the hill.So that a calculated 2% climb may well equal 3-4% or more when curves are added to the equation.


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## JT58 (Dec 20, 2015)

Yup, ran into the same issue. SCARM calculated it as a 4% grade and my Super Chief set started struggling when I added a 4th car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Time to Tim the Toolman Tayler it, more power.

You'll like the looks of the extra power. 

Magic


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

In DC,any additional power ideally should be of the same brand/model so that they're pretty closely speed matched.Different brands/models aren't geared equal and won't necessarily run well together,having one spinning trying to pull the slower one to speed.


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks. I ordered the identical loco, except with a different road number.



Brakeman Jake said:


> In DC,any additional power ideally should be of the same brand/model so that they're pretty closely speed matched.Different brands/models aren't geared equal and won't necessarily run well together,having one spinning trying to pull the slower one to speed.


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

The second loco took care of it, so all is good. And I have another Loco to show for it


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Multiple units*



Big_Steve said:


> The second loco took care of it, so all is good. And I have another Loco to show for it


 Big_Steve;

Glad to hear you "fixed" your problem by adding a second unit. The real railroads do the same thing, of course. When they are going to climb a steep grade(2% is a steep grade for them)
they add extra diesel units to handle the load, just like you did.
This was one of the many selling points of diesel over steam. In the steam era, adding a second steam locomotive up front( called "double heading") meant adding (and paying) a second crew. The same would be true of a steam helper, either at the rear end, or cut midway into the train. Some heavy coal trains had 3,or 4 locomotives, each with its own crew, to haul the tonnage up their steep grades. 
Another common steam practice was to swap out different types of steam locos. The bigger, more powerful, types would be used on the grades. Smaller locos could take over in the flat lands. All this engine adding or changing is great for modelers; but a serious cost issue for the prototype railroad companies.
When diesels came along, they included multiple unit(MU) capability. Now one crew could control as many head end units as needed. Later "Locotrol" systems allowed the single crew to also control the, mid-train, or rear, helpers as well. 
So adding that extra unit is just what the big boys would do.
Our model grades are usually lots steeper than the prototype's.
That's because we don't have the whole great outdoor world to build our layouts! 

regards;

Traction Fan


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## Tony35 (Mar 18, 2016)

You did the correct thing by adding a loco
I have 4% grades plus one of them has curves so I need 3 locos to pull the cars up


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks for the interesting info.



traction fan said:


> Big_Steve;
> 
> Glad to hear you "fixed" your problem by adding a second unit. The real railroads do the same thing, of course. When they are going to climb a steep grade(2% is a steep grade for them)
> they add extra diesel units to handle the load, just like you did.
> ...


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## Big_Steve (Feb 21, 2016)

Was hoping to use the same power pack to run a second line inside the oval of the first. Have to look up what my controller is rated at, and what the 2 Locos draw. 



Tony35 said:


> You did the correct thing by adding a loco
> I have 4% grades plus one of them has curves so I need 3 locos to pull the cars up


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## Tony35 (Mar 18, 2016)

I have DCC and have had 18 locos on the layout (no sound) but they really didnt draw that much power
I think you will be just fine


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Tony35 said:


> You did the correct thing by adding a loco
> I have 4% grades plus one of them has curves so I need 3 locos to pull the cars up


Good to know adding locos is the trick... better than having a layout you can't use! :laugh: This is a relief for me to hear, because I have a 3% grade with a curve starting at the base of it, and I'm just starting to build the grade and lay the track now, so I haven't been able to actually test it yet.

I can live with multiple locos requiring a pull up a grade... heck, that's even a realistic aspect of operations really. Just makes it more challenging to plan for when running operations!


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## Tony35 (Mar 18, 2016)

Overkast said:


> Good to know adding locos is the trick... better than having a layout you can't use! :laugh: This is a relief for me to hear, because I have a 3% grade with a curve starting at the base of it, and I'm just starting to build the grade and lay the track now, so I haven't been able to actually test it yet.
> 
> I can live with multiple locos requiring a pull up a grade... heck, that's even a realistic aspect of operations really. Just makes it more challenging to plan for when running operations!


You going DCC?
Speed matching will be needed


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes I am doing DCC. Is speed-matching something I can program easily? I'm using the NCE PowerCab to run the layout.


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## Tony35 (Mar 18, 2016)

I have digitrax and Im only using 3 CVs to get them close for right now
I will be setting up JMRI one of these days to really dial them in
I change, start, mid, max CVs
Yes you should be able to do it
The first one takes the most time but once you get the hang of it you will be doing them pretty quick the longest part is getting them warmed up


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