# KGB Rail Lines needs your help. Many questions



## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Ok this thread is about our son's new train set he got for christmas. Dad had a set when he was younger but in all reality we are beginners at this. Mom has gotten the bug too, so here goes. The track is laid down and tacked in place. it took some time as it had dead spots but we got it all working good. We've started to add scenery. The train surrounds a TYCO NASCAR Super Sounds race set.

1. The set he got is a Model Power set that has two locomotives. Although one is a dummy. What is the point of a dummy? It seems heavy and would drag down the powered one.

2. Which leads me to my next question. The set came with 4 other cars (not including caboose) and when hooked up all is good. But Dad found some cars on ebay he had as a kid and purchased them to add. Mom found some ones she liked and purchased those and our son found some he liked. We now have 17 cars in total (not including dummy and caboose) What we found is with the dummy the locomotive can barely pull 10, remove the dummy and it can pull 15 with just a little trouble off the start, but once it gets going it seems to don fine. So, what is a the limit for a locomotive to pull and, can two powered locomotives be used in tandem to increase capabilities?

3. Some of the train cars we purchased are of other brands, The Tyco and Lionel cars hook up fine. But the Roundhouse brand has some issues, as does the A.H.M. We also purchased a Marklin car not realising how different the couplers are. So can couplers be changed for better hook up?

4. Two cars are brand unidentifiable, one has its own hook up issues and the other needs an axle (we knew this buying it but it looked really cool and figured getting an axle for it would not be a problem...once we identified the brand. So how does one go about identifying brands?

Also, we realize there are many experts and serious enthusiast here. We realize many of our cars not be period and rail line correct. This is just a for fun set up that will be played with by kids

Thanks in advance for any help. I include a pic of our landscaped corner.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

This is the set our son received for Christmas. Model Power with a oval layout. It was just casual thing to play with now and then until...


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Shortly thereafter while browsing a flea market/pawn store, dad saw these two cars that were part of his childhood train set and that's when it really started lol!

The piggyback car needs a hand brake. Its a Tyco, any ideas where we might find one?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Next up, ebay and Mom picked out these two Model Power cars.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Once ebay was involved, Dad found another childhood car from his original Lionel set.

This is a great car, will hook up to any brand (except one, more on that later lol)

It is missing the hand brake wheel, any ideas where to get one?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Another ebay Dad pick. This is a Roundhouse brand. This is where things start getting problematic. It will hook up with some, like the Lionel, A.H.M. Bachmann, almost every time. Sometimes Tyco and the (coming up next Unidentified silver car) but hates the Model Power cars


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Another ebay Mom pick. This is an unidentified brand car. It does not play well with others. Seems ok with Lionel cattle car, 50/50 with Roadhouse "ElCapitan" and 25/75 with Sante-Fe Hopper car that is coming up next. 

Any ideas if couplers can be changed or upgraded?

Bonus question, Not familiar with what this car is used for in real life, what is it called and why do all the ones we see have those two open spots on the top rail on both sides?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Another Dad ebay purchase. This car is AHM brand. It has minor issues hooking up with some cars, not a big deal though. What is funny is, if it is at the end of the train it will derail. but if we put it directly behind the locomotive no issues. Does it feel left out in the back and feel special up front...lol...or maybe since its hooked to gray troublemaker car above can that be affecting it?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

It is at this point that we feel the locomotive is at its limits, all these cars and the caboose. it will struggle and slip a little on take off but once it gets going it goes and a pretty good clip. We have video of it completing three circuits starting at 60, then 80 then 100 (full throttle) it wont pull them at 20 and at 40 it tries but wont complete a full circuit. We tried adding the video but could not get it to load. We actually disconnected the locomotive and pulled the cars by hand...WOW...it is actually quit a load and therefore we stopped adding cars on the track at this time. This brings up the question again, can two powered locomotives be used together to pull a heavier load? or are we just being greedy?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Still a few more cars purchased. Like this Bachmann Dad picked out on ebay At first we could not identify it, until we took pictures for this forum and we found it on the bottom once we blew up picture. Anyway this car is missing an axle. Any ideas where to get a replacement? we knew in advance it was missing an axle. The colors are nice and we have not seen another like it. So we took a chance a replacement could be found.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Now this is a tricky one for us, our son, who loves construction equipment saw this and HAD to have it. An ebay purchase we never even paid attention to it being a German made car by Marklin. It is completely different underneath. Any hopes to get this working with our set up? Or is it confined to background scenery?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

The most recent one is another Son pick and another Model Power car. No issues as we haven't even run it yet and do not expect any as it was NIB.

But between this and the Caboose...


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

The Model Power caboose that came with the kit. Ok we've stated we are only beginner/novices at this and this is just a play set for our young son to grow up with and have some quality family time. But, could Model Power have made the red anymore fake or plastic looking...lol. We are sure the more serious builders and collectors are laughing at us right now, but come this is real cheap looking lol. Our son, who is only 4 even looks at other cabooses...maybe he wants a new one and is just afraid to ask because Dad always says "we already have a caboose"..lol


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

We have two more cars on the way, a Tyco unloading box car and another Tyco piggyback car with different trailers 

But on to the track. After many frustrating hours searching for and troubleshooting dead spots this was the solution...yes you see that right the straight track is "bent" or warped. Not through fault of track or damage, no we had to manipulate it like this then connection was perfect throughout track and no problems since. is this "normal" or common, or just the result of lower quality track again its Model Power brand. We have read on here about soldering the connectors or joiners. How is that possible without melting the plastic ties? Or is the soldering method only used on brands with ties made of something other than plastic?

One other track question, in one corner the track is not tacked down, it actually get a worse connection if it is.. So we let it fly, You can see it move up and down as train goes across it, similar to when you see the rails move on a real train. We tried posting a video but could not. Again is this normal or a result of our low quality set? 














?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Thanks for reading some beginners questions that we are sure are silly and tiresome to some. Now hopeful the moderators will make this public soon, and we are no longer talking to ourselves lol.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

WOW, thanks for all the help everyone, You guys are awesome


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Sorry, just found this thread. The reason that some of the cars do not play well together is that you have two different styles of couplers. The black one piece plastic ones are X2F couplers, sometimes erroneously referred to as NMRA couplers or horn hook. The gray car with the metal beam sides in post #7 has knuckle couplers. This is the style of coupler that most modeler's use, as they look and act more like the real thing. Kadee was the originator of this style of coupler, although since their patent expired there are other companies making them. Kadee's are still the best, though. Kadee - The Coupler People
The couplers can be changed on the other cars, it's usually not too hard. There are a lot of good YouTube videos on the process. You will want to change the X2F couplers to knuckle couplers, not the other way around. You can make a "conversion" car with a Knuckle coupler on one end and an X2F on the other. That way you can use the cars as you convert them. The Marklin car is going to be more of a challenge, as it has what is known as tension lock couplers. 
The knuckle couplers I use the most are the Kadee 148's. While you are on Kadee's website you will want to get a coupler height gauge. Kadee - The Coupler People
Also get an NMRA gauge. Standards Gauge -- Includes Metal Gauge and Instructions
One last thing: The NMRA has set standards for car weight. The standard is a base weight of 1 ounce, + 1/2 ounce for each inch of car length. So a 6" long car should weigh 4 ounces. Most train set cars are much too light, and that can contribute to derailments and being pulled off the track by other cars. I use these to weight my cars: 1/4 oz. Wheel Weights
Harbor Freight also makes 1/2 ounce ones.
It sounds like you cars just need a good tune up. Check out YouTube for videos on the processes and have at it!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You won't be able to use the Märklin car even if you change the coupler. Märklin uses AC and a third rail pickup for their locomotives. The wheels on the Märklin wagon will short out the track. You will have to change to DC wheels that are insulated from one another to run this car in a train.

See those little holes in the ties? Those holes are for track nails. I recommend them. They are easy to drive with a tack hammer and a punch. Just snug them down to the top of the tie. You'll get a feel for it after you drive a few in.

Particle board though, is not the easiest wood product to drive nails into. I would also recommend you change your sub-roadbed to plywood. It's also much lighter than particleboard for the same size piece and will be easier to pack up and move.

Your electrical connection problems are related to a couple of factors. Kinks in the rail between sections, loose rail joiners, and dirty track at the connection point.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

flyboy2610,

Thank you very much for taking the time with your detailed answer full of information. Yes, we were very naive and assumed all couplers would be standard and compatible. There sure is a lot for us to learn in this aspect.

As for the weights of cars, that was something we thought of, however since our locomotive was having some difficulty pulling all the cars we had hooked up, we were afraid to add any weight. In fact we actually pulled the cars ourselves by hand as were amazed what these little engines can pull. Yet we had no idea there is a weight standard or guideline, something more you have taught us. Thanks again for all the information. it will not go to waste.


On a side note Updates since last post,

We did purchase a small lot of train stuff, that included a Tyco transformer, yes we know not top of the line, but it seemed to give our locomotive more power over the Model Power one even though both have the same 18V output. Before it would struggle to pull 12 cars and had very poor low speed performance. With the Tyco it is easily pulling 15 cars. It also has much better response and performs at lower speeds that it would not previously. In fact it is so touchy and so much faster we have to re-learn it all over again. We also have enough track for a second loop but not the room on the board. Might do a two tier set up. With this track, Tyco, we learned the little track connectors from Tyco are far superior to Model Power and have tighter fit. This was a problem with Model Power and we had to work through a lot of dead spots before we got it right. At this time though it seems we have a lot to learn about some finer points and will spend this time fine tuning things. Is any kind of lubrication recommended on the axles?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE,

Thank you for your response,

That is a shame about the Marklin car. Again naive on our part. Our son loves construction equipment and when he saw that car he had to have it. lol. It would seem for our low level abilities and knowledge it might be smarter for us just to buy another car and put the equipment in it instead.

We did know that the holes are for securing track. However at this time while we lay things out and make changes as we expand, we used the larger tacs as a temporary set up. All holes in wood were pre drilled 3/4 length of tac and then track was snugged up. They can not be pulled up by fingers but a small set of needle nose and they come right out. As stated before we plan to raise the train above the main surface that has a slot car track. Once raised it will be on much softer pine 1x4 and hopefully the stone looking track bed. Dad, being the carpenter that he is, decided on 3/4 particle board for is consistency and hardness over plywood. It also has a full 2x4 frame underneath it. 

You are right about the track connectors or rail joiners as you call them. As stated in last post we learned how sloppy the Model Power ones fit. We even squeezed them together with needle nose pliers. It helped a lot but, the tyco ones are so much tighter fitting. When we get to permanent mounting of track we will use better ones than the Model Power. 

Thanks again for the tips and advice


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

KGB Railways said:


> We have two more cars on the way, a Tyco unloading box car and another Tyco piggyback car with different trailers
> 
> But on to the track. After many frustrating hours searching for and troubleshooting dead spots this was the solution...yes you see that right the straight track is "bent" or warped. Not through fault of track or damage, no we had to manipulate it like this then connection was perfect throughout track and no problems since. is this "normal" or common, or just the result of lower quality track again its Model Power brand. We have read on here about soldering the connectors or joiners. How is that possible without melting the plastic ties? Or is the soldering method only used on brands with ties made of something other than plastic?
> 
> ...


First off I must tell you that you now have the most incurable disease known to man; model railroading. You can't beat it so you are obviously joining it and you'll have it for the rest of your life. Welcome.
Next you need some Atlas track nails. The nails you are using could present problems with couplers hitting the heads and derailing cars. The Atlas nails fit the tiny holes next to your current nails. Once you have th tracks placed and fitting tight and square against each other put a track nail in every hole in each piece of track.
Couplers can be changed and often are. Kaydee makes the most popular couplings and they have one for every situation. Study up on them on line.
Yes you can buy new axles for your cars. Intermountain makes some really good ones out of metal. All metal wheel sets will make your cars roll much more freely. More cars per train. Yes you can run two loco's at a time hooked together but they won't go as fast since the electricity will be split between them. Study DCC operation to find out how to run as many as ten or more trains at the same time or two or more locos hooked together at the same time. Yes you have a lot to learn but it's fun and very educational. Kalmbach Publishing sells a lot of different books on How To do most everything in Model Railroading. You might also subscribe to Model Railroader magazine for tons of info every month.
You obviously have a super family interest in model railroading so the next thing to do is start looking for a bigger house so you can enlarge your railroad. Oh yes, that is already happening.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Fun stuff. So much has already been written. I will just add (re-add?) that I have a bunch of those Tyco cars too. I swapped out the plastic wheels for new metal ones and they really coast well. In the ideal perhaps the whole truck assembly could be re done but this was not worth it to me. I also replaced all the couplers to kadee over time. I even have two European engines and I was able to find a retrofit in the kadee line of coupler products for them.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Severn, what locomotives do you have?


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

KGB Railways said:


> Is any kind of lubrication recommended on the axles?


The axles on the cars don't need lubrication, but if you really feel you need to, just a small bit of powdered graphite on the end of the axle. The axles and trucks are made out of engineering plastic, a brand name of which is Delron, which is a tough, slippery plastic. The stuff also doesn't glue well at all! Model cements have no effect on it. CA (Super Glue) will hold it so-so. 
For the locomotive, I use just a small bit of white lithium grease on one or two of the gears. The grease will be distributed as the locomotive runs. In model railroading, too much lubrication is almost worse than none at all, it makes a big mess that attracts dirt like crazy! For the bearings, just a drop of a light oil, such as sewing machine oil or 3-in-1 oil. Just a single drop per bearing! Labelle is a trusted name in model railroad lubricants. Model Train Lubes | Labelle-Lubricants
You need to be careful what you use, because some oils and greases can attack plastic.
You're a classic case in model railroad addiction: buy a set for the kids, get hooked yourself. Happens time and time again! Welcome to the support group!


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

A piko, an acme, the newer Amtrak bachmann, walthers sd70 mid grad, same brand another diesel, sd90 atheran Genesis 2...carcasses to a golden eagle by Tyco and stewEt hobbies unfinished project...I think that's it. (Ho)


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Don't put oil on the axles, it just collects dirt. You could use graphite (pencil lead) as a lubricant, however if the wheels are plastic, you might consider an upgrade to metal wheels such as InterMountain makes. They will roll much better! It's not unusual for us to buy a car and upgrade the couplers to Kadee and the wheels to metal, as plastic wheels also lead to dirty track.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

[QUOTE ="KGB Railways, post: 2530361, member: 70091"] When we get to permanent mounting of track we will use better ones than the Model Power.


[/QUOTE]

When you get to permanent mounting of the track, consider soldering the rail joiners...that will ensure electrical continuity. If you are unsure about how to solder, there are videos on YouTube as well as advice on this forum. You can use the search function to find some. Good luck!


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

You are beginning. Do not worry about NMRA standards, particularly the proper weight although heavier cars do tend to stay on the track better. You may find adding weight to some of these cars will help them stay on the track. You don't need a coupler height gauge. If your couplers are on the relative same level and they stay together, you are good for now. You are not going to hook this up to some club track, you want to have fun with it. At this time I would recommend sticking with the horn hook couplers since that is what you have the most of plus some of these cars like Tyco, AHM, and Model Power can be difficult to convert to knuckle couplers. Many of these have the couplers attached to the truck (the thing that holds the wheels). To be converted to knuckle couplers, you will have to remove those and mount them to the body using a coupler box. A lot of work for where you are and what you want. For some you may even have to replace the trucks. The $ and time starts to add up.

It sounds like you want to have fun with your family. Spend the time getting the trackwork smooth. That will get you the most trouble free run time and fun.

You are just beginning. Get it up and running and have fun. I speak from experience. A lot of the advice on here comes from folks who have been doing this for decades and are more serious about what they do.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

norgale,

thank you for your reply. If it is an incurable disease we'll take it. Much much cheaper than our normal activities lol. In all reality this is just something that sorta fell into our lap and is a good thing to do during bad weather or nighttime. 

Yes we agree on the nails and as we told the other person, these are just temporary tacks to sort out the layout. We've also learned some on the couplers in other replies and with all the confirmation from everyone it will be a next step. 

Thank you for the tip on metal axles, that will definitely be on the upgrade list. It makes perfect sense they would perform better. Why don't they come that way lol. 

We will also look into DCC, thats sounds like just the ticket we are looking for. and thanks for the guidance on the books, definitely some reading to do...Thanks a lot, thought we were done with homework once we left school lol

I don't think we'll be needing a bigger house though, currently it is set up in our 2,600 sq ft shop along with all our other toys. Although, the thought of doing a upper perimeter layout has crossed some minds. 

Again thank you for all your tips, much appreciated.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Severn,

Thanks for confirmation on the metal axles, that you have tyco is reassuring. We will definitely get metal for the car that needs new ones and then upgrade other cars as time and money allow.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

flyboy2610,

Thanks again, Most of that stuff we have in the shop, but from what you've said it's not as needed as we might have thought. Like we told norgale, this is an addiction we dont mind.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Lemonhawk, 

Thank you its seems that is the direction to go form the feedback we are getting.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

fire21

what we've learned so far is most of our problem was the Model Power track joiners, the fit real loose even after crimping them with plyers. Once we got some tyco pieces and saw how the fitment was on them we new right away what to do. We had asked about soldering them in one of our earlier post. We both know how to solder, but we were/are worried about melting the plastic ties. Is that not an issue? Maybe we should get a small soldering iron instead of our gun?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

DavefromMD

Thank you and we agree and are on board (no pun intended) with much of what you have said. Someone had the idea of using on car as a connector between the styles of couplers (can't remember his exact words) and that is probably the route we will take for now, that way we are only modifying/fixing one or two cars at this time. This is kinda what the lionel car is right as it seems to get along with most all cars.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

We want to thank all of you once again for taking time out of your day to help us with what is probably questions you've answered many many times.

This little tyco piece was used in replacement of our problem straight that had to be manipulated with brass tacks. The track joiners are so much tighter than the Model Power ones. We have a lot more Tyco track that came in our lot buy. One question on track, some of it is silver ( steel?) and some of it is brass. is one better than the other? It seems the brass would be better and it won't rust or corrode like we have already seen on some steel track pieces


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

KGB Railways said:


> norgale,
> 
> thank you for your reply. If it is an incurable disease we'll take it. Much much cheaper than our normal activities lol. In all reality this is just something that sorta fell into our lap and is a good thing to do during bad weather or nighttime.


If you sail yachts, collect Rolexes or Omegas, or fly high performance aircraft, then yes, it's cheaper than those activities, but this is by no means a cheap hobby. It can be, but a lot of frustration and disappointment can be avoided by spending money on quality equipment _if_ you think you may become serious about the hobby.



> Thank you for the tip on metal axles, that will definitely be on the upgrade list. It makes perfect sense they would perform better. Why don't they come that way lol.


Quality rolling stock _will_ come with metal wheels and axles, but as I said above, the cost is higher for that level of quality. While you are replacing wheels and axles, don't forget about a set for the Märklin wagon.



> We will also look into DCC, that sounds like just the ticket we are looking for. and thanks for the guidance on the books, definitely some reading to do...Thanks a lot, thought we were done with homework once we left school lol


DCC opens up a nearly limitless amount of operating possibilities for your railroad. Not only for train operation, but turnouts, signal systems, lighting, operating accessories, etc.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Steel rusts and brass tarnishes. Neither are used on a regular basis any longer for model railroads. 

Nickle silver is the new rail standard for just about everything except O scale. Not sure what those guys are using these days.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

On a non technical level, Dad built a pretty cool slot car track about 15-20 years ago for his (now grown up) other kids When they lost interest the track was sold and we now regret it as it had some very very rare Model Motoring/Aurora/AFX cars and track accessories/buildings. (see if we can dig up some pics) However when we sold it, some handmade stuff was saved for no other reason than it was cool. So a section was lifted from the table. No idea another child would be coming along at this point in life. This was the camp scene with observation platform and small cabin underneath. a working fire pit (black circle) and a real stone fireplace "ruin" (by logs and rock) a common find in the woods in our area left over from cabins long ago rotted away. The trees have all been removed and currently on the layout testing locations. but these pieces dug out of storage will soon join the layout. the other shelter was in our first pic.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE,

I think we are somewhere between Yachts and model trains with our normal gig lol. How far we go into it will depend solely on our son. Pretty certain we will never get to the level most of you are at not to mention some of the wild set ups we've seen on youtube and in our travels. Part of the appeal is its so inexpensive for a play set up compared to what we normally do. Not to mention our sons extensive power wheels collection lol. But like you said and as it goes with most everything, the higher the price the better the quality. 

That's new and good information on the track materials. And it makes sense. Thank you


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So, from your posts #15 and #16 above, it appears that your initial post was stuck in moderation and wasn't visible to other members on the site. As you can see, there are plenty of folks here who can help and advise, and are more than willing to do so.

There is a lot to unpack here, because of all the unanswered posts at the beginning. First of all, let me deliver the bad news: with Tyco and Model Power, you're really hanging righton the edge of cheap junk that may not actually meet your needs. Hence the really cheap plasticy looking models, missing parts, poor detail, mismatched couplers, underweight cars, etc. There is much better stuff on the market, but you'll pay more for it. Nothing wrong with staying with the low-end stuff, as long as you're willing to accept the compromises. 

I will comment on a couple of other questions / comments you have. Give the community a day or so to respond, and then come back with a few more questions (or revisit ones we missed). That's really the best way to learn: take it in manageable bites.

The loco's pulling power & the dummy. The dummy is that way because in DC operation, there is no guarantee that even two identical locos will travel the same speed at the same power setting (note that you can purchase a Digital Command and Control, or DCC, system which would give you much finer control, as well as the ability to control multiple locos simultaneously; we can go into that if there is interest). This could result in one dragging the other against the force of its motor, certainly reducing the pulling capability, and maybe even damaging one or both of the drive trains. One powered loco is better. Make sure the dummy is intended to be a dummy though. The wheels should spin freely. Pulling power is affected by 3 things: traction of the loco, quality of the drive train, and rolling resistance of everything being pulled. You can't really affect the first two, except maybe by adding rubber traction tires to some of the wheels. A better quality locomotive will probably give you more pulling power (I have ones that will pull 30 or more cars without breaking a sweat. Rolling resistance in turn depends on a couple of factors: grades and sharp curves will add resistance, as does friction in the wheel sets of the cars. Do all the wheels on you rolling stock spin freely? If you spin them with your finger, do they keep spinning for a while, or stop immediately? If the latter, that's costing you a lot of friction. Also, wheels that are not properly spaced or aligned (unfortunately, more common on the cheap stuff) will add drag. There are solutions to all of these problems: how much work and money are you willing to invest?

Spare parts: they don't usually sell spares for the cheap stuff, but lots of companies make so called "detailing" parts, allowing you to add your own. You can Google what you need, or my recommendation would be to pay a visit to William K. Walthers. They are the largest wholesaler in North America, and while they don't carry everything, they carry a good selection of products which pretty much covers the range of availability in HO and N scales. Browsing their site is a good way to get a feel for the variety of products available. They are a wholesaler, though, so their prices are MSRP. You can often find the same products cheaper elsewhere, so shop around. Their website is www.walthers.com

Track: it's hard to tell what you have. With any luck, it is nickel silver sectional track. If not, it is steel. If it's steel, it's really poor quality, and many of your power issues will be related to that. Best bet is to replace it with better quality track, but if you don't want to go to the expense, at least keep it scrupulously clean. Get some WD-40 Contact Cleaner (regular WD-40 is different stuff, but will still work), spray some on a rag, and firmly rub the rails. Rotate the rag as it becomes cruddy (it will). Alcohol is a commonly recommended solvent too, and it will CLEAN your track just fine, but won't help it stay that way. If you have nickel silver track, you still need to clean it, just less often. Do so anyway, because new track is actually pretty cruddy from the factory.

Joiners: you can crimp badly-fitting ones in place with needle-nose pliers., but relying on them to either mechanically hold your track in place or transfer power is a bad bet. Fasten your track down, using either nails or a thin layer of adhesive caulk. If you use nails, be careful not to overdrive them: the head of the nail should just touch the tie; any further and you can bow the tie, pinching the rails together and binding the wheels at that spot. Lay your track carefully, making sure there are no bumps or kinks, both of which spell trouble for your trains. If the set came with an oval, things should line up correctly; if you're modifying or adding to it, you will have to ensure that things fit without fudging. Today's fudge is tomorrow's derailment. Soldering rail joiners is a recommended practice. Like any skill, it takes practice to do well. You use a heat sink to protect the ties from melting. Get a couple of spare pieces of track and practice.

Layout surface: flat is better, as is dimensionally stable. Particle board, as you are using, tends to absorb water from the air and distort, so unless this is in a climate-controlled area, with nearly constant temperature and humidity year round, particle board will be trouble. Use high quality plywood, and SEAL it with oil-based paint or polyurethane if you don't have good temperature and humidity control. You can also use extruded foam home insulation panels, which are rigid, light, and dimensionally stable. The biggest problem with these is that they don't hold track nails particularly well.

So, that's a lot to digest... I'll quit there. Keep the questions coming -- we'll get you through it.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTvalleRR,

Thank you for responding. yes we know there is a lot to "unpack" in our post. It was our intent to try and keep each question or subject confined to its own post. That way a responder could say "in reference to your question in post #7" In much the way you referenced post #15 & #16

Yes we are very well aware Model Power and tyco are at the bottom of quality. This was not a planned thing, our son got the Model Power set as a gift, it just grew from there because Dad can not leave anything alone or "stock". We should point out that this is all for a 4 year old to play with, to explore his imagination, and to learn new things. So we have no idea if a year from now he will be bored with it and it's a dust collector. As he is so young, things are bound to be played with and possibly broken, For example the other day he was playing by himself with it. (It was not plugged in at the time) when Dad went to see what he was up to, son came and blocked Dad from going into the other section of shop where track was. Instantly as a parent you know your child is up to mischief. But dad played this game of cat and mouse several times over the next 30 minutes or so until he eventually "got past" the little tyrant What he found is many of the temporary mounted trees had been removed as was the little outpost shack. The bucket loader, bulldozer, and scraper had been removed form train cars and apparently helped in this deforestation construction project. Now a mess was made and some of the trees had broken branches Now it would be easy to get upset and yell at him and say no that's not how you play with it. But you know what, it is HIS toy, he was having fun, using his imagination and that is what this is about...for us...so what if a couple of trees worth mabey 2-3 dollars have broken branches, it actually makes them look more realistic. yes the little plastic construction equipment could have been broken, they were not, but again who cares, they are plastic material items. Listening to your little boy play and make "sounds" and the cat and mouse game of "what i'm not doing anything wrong" and the little mischievous look on his face are all priceless moments in his young life.

So with that all said you can probably see why we are shopping at the bottom. The irony is it's not the cheap cars giving us the problems, Not sure where they rate but we would guess mid level cars.
The AHM likes to derail at the trailing axles. Moving it from the rear of the train to just behind the locomotive helped take care of 90% of it. Based on what we thought and from a reply in here we'd guess it's just a weight issue of the car.
The Roadhouse car is picky what it will connect to.
And the still unidentified silver rail car with the Kadee couplers only likes the Lionel car and Roadhouse car...sometimes. But thanks to this forum we have now been pointed in the right direction to solve those issues.

As for track, the initial Model Power set was new but was old stock. We took some 220 grit sandpaper and lightly cleaned the surface then wiped it all down with a wd-40 soaked rag and then let it sit for 24 hrs. Having slot car tracks in past we know the importance of rail maintenance. The real issues was the joiners were very loose fitting. Crimping them helped a lot but not 100%. it wasn't until we got the tyco track pieces in a lot purchase we learned the tyoc joiners were much better.

As for the mounting surface and climate, we are good there. The shop stays the same temp and we live in area of the country with little to no humidity (finally lol),,,side note it's nice to not need a million water separators on our air compressor lines lol. The 3/4 particle board is actually glued and screwed (as opposed to nails that can loosen and lift over time) down to a 2x4 frame. warping is not a problem.

With all that said we took a lot from your post and learned even more and for that we thank you for taking the time to reply.

While we appreciate all the dedication, determination, and expense many of you go to for you superb layouts and the efforts you go to, in this case that is not us. We do that in our business and hobby (one in the same) and in this case it's nice to go low key...something Dad is not capable of doing most of the time. We just need a reliable train to circle our slot car track And therein lies the real problem. Mr cant leave anything alone, mr attention to realism and detail just had to buy more cars He just had to get cars that said Santa-Fe on them because that's what the locomotive and caboose said. Mom had to have cars that look cool by color or other. Son just wanted cars with construction equipment so he could wipe out the forest lol But all that led to Tyco, Lionel, Bachmann, AHM, Roadhouse, Marklin, and still unidentified car came into play and we asked a cheap Model Power locomotive to pull it all on a oval confined to a 4x8 surface. We are probably asking it to do more than it was designed to do. Especially when all cars are attached the entire train takes up about 50% of the entire track. Now that we have more track we are working on fitting in a second loop, its proven challenging based on limited surface space. We already have several ideas but more problems come with more ideas....lol...you solve one issue but it creates another somewhere else.

A good way to look at this, right now we are not prepared to spend a lot of money on higher end stuff. We just want to make what we have work consistently enough we can let the train run on its own while the race is on, slot car race that is. If we have to spend a little money on upgrades and or repairs we will.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

My youngest son started into HO scale when he was about 4-1/2 years old. They can learn how to properly handle delicate models surprisingly quickly. My son rarely broke anything serious.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

He can drive the Slot car track pretty good, This track even requires you to pull into the pits every few laps and if you don't it will rob your power. He can do that pretty good. He's driven the train to but the Model Power transformer was not that responsive to anything other then 3/4 throttle and up. The Tyco one we got works much better and he's learning how sensitive it is. Although it does have some issue with reverse.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Looking at metal axles to 1, repair the car missing one, and 2 upgrade some others while at it. We found these
for 12.00 for 12.00 axles. Made by Walthers.

Questions,

1. Is this a good price deal?
2, will they work on bachmann? This is the car missing an axle
3. will they work on the other brands, Tyco, Lionel, AHM, Roadhouse, and Model Power


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I have purchased bulk packs of wheel sets for $65 for 100 (although that was several years age), so not a great price, but not out of the ball park.

They should work on the Roundhouse cars, because I have done so. For the others, pop a wheel set out and take a look. Unless the wheel is a hub arrangement where the axle protrudes through the side of the truck, they will work.

Intermountain is also a good brand.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Thank you CTValleyRR, someone else mentioned Intermountain so we will give them a look. These just came up when looking for something else.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Good news, We decided to take another look at the unidentified silver car and since we cannot currently use it, decided to experiment and see if one of the axles would fit the Bachmann car currently missing one. Sure enough worked like a charm. Plus after looking at it closer, taking more detailed pics and blowing them up on computer, we discovered the make of the car...ROCO out of Austria. It has the kadee couplers so someday we will add some to others cars, at least one in front car and one car behind it, so it can be used. But as it sits now it was a good source of parts


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

That and the Märklin car you purchased are probably the two best cars you have.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> That and the Märklin car you purchased are probably the two best cars you have.


Definitely agree.

That car, BTW, will take the Walthers or Intermountain wheelers just fine. And Kadee couplers should be your default standard as well. They will give you much less trouble over the long run than the others. Walthers ProtoMax couplers are also metal knuckle couplers, comparable to and interchangeable with the Kadees (although Walthers doesn't make nearly as many variants). Other couplers (McHenry, Bachmann EZ Mate, etc) may look similar, but are made of plastic and don't hold up nearly as well.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE and CTValleyRR thank you,

Of the cars we have where would you guys rank them 1-10 with 1 being worst and 10 being best. (not insinuating any of them are a 1 or 10 )

Model Power
Tyco
AHM
Bachmann
Lionel
Roadhouse
ROCO
Marklin


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Roco, Maerklin









Tyco


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE,

We kinda figured that from previous post, just curious to how the others rate. It will help us when looking at purchasing other cars.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

I've ordered them from worst to best.


KGB Railways said:


> Tyco
> Lionel (Varies a bit as they never made their own. some is basically cheap old Bachmann, some is Athearn)
> ROCO
> AHM
> ...


If you're feeling patient, but still on a budget, I'd look for good deals on Athearn and Roundhouse cars and Athearn locomotives. They are sturdy, already have pockets on the body that will accomodate any coupler you want. They still have plastic wheels, but they are on metal axles and in my opinion generally don't need to be upgraded to metal. The trucks are mounted with a screw so you can adjust the tension. They are a bit more expensive than Tyco/Roco/AHM, but you can still find them at shows for 5-8 bucks. Athearn diesel engines are great pullers and -equally important- are easy to service and repair.

A couple other things I'd add..
-How long are you looking for your trains to be? If you're going to be running trains over 15 cars or so, then metal wheels might be an advantage. If you're not running 20 car trains, then you're probably fine with the wheels you have if you have a "truck tuner" and have tuned your trucks.

-Buy a Truck tuner and tune your trucks.

-If you want more pulling power simply buying another of the model power locos you have and running them together will give you more pull. I know a guy with alot of locos like that for cheap. PM me and I'll put you in touch.

-The purpose of a dummy loco is simply to look good. If the loco you have is a strong puller then you might not need the second loco to be powered. My athearn locos are generally strong enough to pull on their own, but putting a dummy in there sure looks good.

-I second the recommendation for KD #148. Way easier to install than #5's and almost as cheap, especially in bulk packs.

-Body mounted couplers is best, but if you'd like to quickly swap over to proper knuckle couplers you can pop #148's into the truck-coupler pockets you have now and snap a #212 "Talgo truck Adapter" over the opening on top of the coupler pocket. With 148's and 212s ,you can swap your whole collection over to knuckles in an hour or so and then do other upgrades (body mounted couplers, trucks, etc) at your leisure. I've got a number of cars like this and they work well. When you get around to body mounting the couplers you can pop the coupler out and reuse it. 

-Have you located a replacement wheel/axle for the Bachmann? If not, send me a PM and I'll send you some.

-If you're going to stick with basic DC operations -as it sounds like you are- then you may still find it advantageous to go with nickel silver (NS) track. The basic Atlas Nickel Silver "code 100" track affordabel is completely compatible with what you have and though it isn't the most "accurate" it is sturdy and works well. I would ditch any steel track you have. You will know if it's steel if it is magnetic. Brass will actually conduct better than NS but gets dirtier faster, hence the recommendation for NS. 

Good luck and welcome to the hobby.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'll put a somewhat different take on it:

Marklin
Roco
Roundhouse (this is actually Athearn's "budget" line, although it used to be a separate company.
New production Bachmann
New Model Power
-------------
AHM
Lionel
Old Bachmann
Old Model Power
Tyco.

Really, I wouldn't purchase anything "below the line" for my layout. Sometimes you get lucky with a Lionel HO or AHM model, but quality was very inconsistent.

With paint, replacement parts, and tuning, you can sometimes make those cheap cars presentable and operable, but in my opinion, the cost of the materials and effort involved isn't worth it. Better to spend a little more and get something a little better. 

Of course, there is a level of, I don't know, pride in appearance (for lack of a better term). I'm not a stickler for detail, but I also don't want anything that looks too toy-like, either.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Eilif,

thank you for your reply.

Really surprised to see Lionel so far down on your list. If as you say they are outsourced, we must have a good one because it's quality and performance are right up with the Bachmann and Roundhouse (yes sorry for "Roadhouse" typo)

We would like to get some Athearn. Especially with your vote of confidence in Locomotives as well.

Currently we are at 15 cars (plus caboose) with two on the sidelines till we figure out what to do with them...ROCO and Marklin. At this point the locomotive is starting to struggle a little. In fact we really don't run all 15 90% of the time because of this. We usually keep it to 10 or under. We are definitely getting metal axles. Dad saw that and being the tech guru his is says, "yep i can completely see the benefit"

Truck Tuner...and the previous mentioned "coupler height gauge" i think they called it...oh boy....going to need another tool box...as if the 12 we have isn't enough lol.

Getting an identical Model Power loco was our first thought, then we read if one is slightly faster than the other they will fight against each other. So that was a question we asked and were concerned about. Guess it can't hurt to try it right?

We understand the dummy looks cool, Just not sure why it's so heavy. It free wheels and even says dummy on box. But, if we have it hooked up, the powered loco can only pull about 6-8 cars and then its fighting to even move. Remove the dummy and the loco flys and pulls twice as many before struggling. Seems the dummies could be lighter. 

Thank you, we are going to get some of those couplers. 

Thank you for the generous offer. As the ROCO car will not play well with others, we robbed an axle from it for the Bachmann. Fit right in and it rolls nice and smooth. Once we get our metal axles we will give the ROCO its axle back. 

When we layout the second section we will need more track and we will probably go with the Nickel. Just out of curiosity what makes track more or less accurate?


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTValleyRR,

How do you tell the difference between old bachmann and new Bachmann, same with Model Power?

We are really surprised to see Model Power so highly regarded. The stuff we have works fine but just has that cheap plastic look. The attention to details is not as good either. Most of our stuff came in white boxes, although one came in a blue and white box and the other in a black and red box.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Update,

Ok so while browsing ebay we came across this box car listed as a Model Power. If it truly is a Model Power we can definitely see the difference between old and new. This car has better attention to some details than most of our others. The ladders are separate and not molded in for one. It was 9.98 with free shipping. That inexpensive could not pass up.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

A couple of notes:
1) When you get the metal wheelsets, you will want insulated ones (so they don't cause a short across the rails. Also, get the 33" (scale) versions. I don't see anything in your collection tha would use the bigger 36" versions.

2) New tools: you can never have enough tools.... you'll want a truck tuner, a coupler height gauge (both of these together can easily be concealed in a closed fist). And get an NMRA Standards Gauge. This isn't much bigger, but all three are amazingly useful.

3) Dummy loco is probably heavy because it's a production loco, without the motor and drive train in it. You can probably remove some weight fairly easily, either by removing a section of the installed weight, or cutting it down. Open it up and have a look.

4) Not sure what your last paragraph means in post #55. Nickel silver track is a gimme. Accuracy... what exactly do you mean? Most prototypical looking? Basically, all track is supposed to be accurate in the gauge (16.5mm for HO). Size of the rail and size / spacing of ties is trickier. Most sectional track has funny looking "loop" ties at the end to allow fitting of rail joiners, that's not very realistic. Nor are black ties. Flex track with brown ties, especially MicroEngineering and Walthers, which have thinner, more tightly spaced and more detailed ties. Rails are an issue too. Code 100 rails (code is the height of the rails in thousandths of an inch) are huge compared to the real thing, even larger than the largest rail ever used. Code 83 is a good choice for "heavy", mainline rails, while code 70 looks the most like lighter rail. No real difference in performance, though.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> CTValleyRR,
> 
> How do you tell the difference between old bachmann and new Bachmann, same with Model Power?
> 
> We are really surprised to see Model Power so highly regarded. The stuff we have works fine but just has that cheap plastic look. The attention to details is not as good either. Most of our stuff came in white boxes, although one came in a blue and white box and the other in a black and red box.


By appearance, as you noticed. Model Power has been through a number of owners over the years, which accounts for the different packaging. For a while kit was owned by MRC (power pack, DCC, and RC manufacturer) and put out some good stuff, but then Lionel acquired them, so we'll see.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTValleyRR

1. Thank you, that was a questions we had been meaning to ask but kept forgetting. Now we know 33" scale. 

2. tools are a sore subject around here after a ex wife emptied out 6 Snap-On tool boxes full of passed down from grandfather to father to son, as well as many tools purchased through Snap On and MAC. Although not in this case with HO train tools, it sucks having to buy a tool you once had at much higher prices. 

3. Sounds like a good idea, Thank you

4. In post #53 EilIif was talking about Atlas NS track


Anyway to tell who was the manufacturers for each of the Model Power? Like X company did the White boxes, Y company did Blue, Z company did the Red


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

A tale of 3 Box cars. (ok one is a cattle car)








First up the Lionel car.

Construction;
Has a metal base or deck.
Screwed in trucks (as stated these can be tuned)
Metal axles
Detail is pretty good with exception of molded in walk deck up top (don't know proper term)

Performance;
Rolls real smooth
Hooks up to just about anything. (Only ROCO sometimes will sometimes won't and Marklin nothing will hook up to that)
Has the least amount of wobble up top.
Has never derailed
This is the stablest of all cars...not just these three.

This car was purchased by dad because this same car came in his Lionel "sears" set when he was a boy...circa 78-79 maybe?

It is missing the brake wheel, anyone know where to get a replacement? Intermountain maybe? Yes we know the step is missing, we have the piece and will glue it back on.























Next up the Bachmann, this was the one missing axle that we have since repaired with ROCO axle.

Construction;
Plastic base or deck.
Plastic pin holds in Truck, "has fallen out once"
Plastic axles.
Really nice detail with raised walkway and paint Scheme (why it was purchased)

Performance;
Rolls smooth
hooks up to most cars ok,
seems to have no real issues, but we've not run it much yet.
It does have more wobble to it than Lionel.

Based on construction and pics can any of you tell if this is older or newer style?



















Next up Roundhouse,

Construction:
Metal base or deck.
Screw in trucks
Metal Axles
Couplers separately mounted (can see the plus to this)
Nice attention to detail with raised walkway

Performance;
picky about hookups
Rolls smooth.
Is rather wobbly, much more so than Lionel.
Never any derailment that we can remember















So what puts the Lionel so low on the list? Comparing it to these two, it seems on par with them. Each has their good and bad vs each other. It seems.
Lionel performs the best
Roundhouse has better construction
Bachmann is in middle of both in both aspects.
Educate us on what we are missing here.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

A tale of two Model Power box cars.

Can definitely tell different manufactures on these two, but curious enough came in identical looking packages so maybe our theory on that is wrong.

Both seem to be on low end of scale. 

Construction is similar but,
Trucks and couplers are completely different.
White car has plain base.
Napa has detailed base.
White car has molded in brake wheel
Napa has separate brake wheel
White has a more real look to it
Napa has a cheap plastic look to it. 

The real difference is performance. Napa car wobbles all the time no matter what and has had issues with derailment. But, NAPA car is more friendly with hook ups, for example will hook up to Roadhouse car but White car will not? 

Its kinda a tie with them but we'd 
put these at bottom with tyco and not above Lionel.

Although they came in nearly identical boxes, the white car box had a yellow "Heavy Duty" marking on it.

So again help us see what we are missing...or did we get a lucky car in the Lionel?


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

KGB Railways said:


> A tale of 3 Box cars. (ok one is a cattle car)
> First up the Lionel car.
> 
> Construction;
> ...


You've pretty much got it right. Lionel HO is varied in quality. Some are nice like your boxcar, some are the worst of the imported Bachmann.
AFAIK, Lionel has never made much (possibly any) of it's own HO stuff. Based on the underframe and the trucks with riveted coupler cover (Mantua loved rivets) the Lionel looks like a Mantua (the company that later birthed Tyco). Apparently at this time it was Mantua, which was a well regarded product in its day. You've got metal trucks and a nice heavy base. 

Ironically the latest incarnation of Lionel HO is comprised of Mantua and Model Power product lines they bought last year from MRC. 

As for the Bachmann, if the pin is loose, a tiny stripe of a rubbery glue or caulk, (allowed to COMPLETELY dry before use) along the pin should make it a tighter fit.

Regarding the Roundhouse, I assume the wobbliness and the touchy coupling is because the shaft the truck fits over is too long. I assume when you tighten the screw down it still wobbles. Shortening the shaft a bit should allow the screw to tighten to the point where the truck rotates smoothly. Depending on how smooth your track is, you might want to leave one truck looser than the other to give it a bit of suspension.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

I'll take on the two Model Power cars as well. 

The Lifesaver is one of the very common boxcars they made for many years right up until the end. With the huge lower door rail that is part of the frame and very obvious body clips it's one of the worst looking 40'ers I know. It is however cheap and easy to manufacture and assemble overseas. I don't know the origin of the tooling, but since Lionel bought the Model Power and Mantua tooling it is now part of the current Lionel HO line, albeit in better paint with metal wheels and knuckle couplers. US Army Transportation Corps Boxcar #26875

The second one appears to be one of the ubiquitous 40' designs that has appeared as many different brands over the last 40 years or so. This page shows it as an AHM product (though it's by no means only been AHM) made by Kader.








AHM 40-foot Boxcar 12000-series - HO-Scale Trains Resource


One of AHM's Taiwan-made freight cars was this 40-foot sliding-door boxcar.




ho-scaletrains.com




Kader used to manufacture trains for many companies before the bought Bachmann and started cutting other companies off. 

Wobbly clip-on trucks can be tough to fix, but you might be able to slip a thin washer over the pin or clip between body and truck to minimize the slack.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Eilif,

WOW some great information in your last two post. Thank you very very much. It will definitely help in future. (as will all the help we have gotten here) 

As for the Roundhouse car, We tightened up the screws...not much...about a 1/4 turn but it made a big difference. It's now close to the Lionel for stability and better then others.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

A recent purchase...and hopefully last car we buy for a while...lol...ok still need a second locomotive.

This will be our first Athearn so we will see how it goes, it is used so we will keep that in mind but price was right, 10.00 shipped.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Now that we have enough cars...,more than enough...and we've gone through our testing period and worked out some kinks, it's time to take down tracks, raise, or build up level for train and permanently mount the track. 

We got some of the correct nails on order and are looking for rail bed....any suggestions?


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Here is One option:


> TrainWorld 3013 Midwest cork<


This is probably the most widely used roadbed material.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

KGB, like you were are just starting out in this hobby and it can be a little confusing and intimidating. This these has been extremely useful for me, especially looking at rolling stock. 

I certainly don't have anything useful to add here, looking forward to seeing your setup thought. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Thank you cid, Much appreciated


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

vette-kid said:


> KGB, like you were are just starting out in this hobby and it can be a little confusing and intimidating. This these has been extremely useful for me, especially looking at rolling stock.
> 
> I certainly don't have anything useful to add here, looking forward to seeing your setup thought.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Welcome aboard vette-kid! Good to know someone else has benefited from this thread. A lot of good people have contributed and probably answered questions they've answered a hundred times before. 

Once the main tracks are down structurally, we will post a picture, Landscaping and scenery will be done over time, Hard to tell though, once "someone" gets an idea and gets about 3/4 of they way through the brain goes into overdrive and new ideas or changes happen. Not uncommon for us to do and undo things several times (not even related to trains) , but each time it gets wilder, stronger, or better in one way or the other. It's like the brain is two steps ahead of the body. lol. For example this simple oval has turned into an oval train surrounding an oval race track and now a second train track has been in the works and even before that is 100% figured out..." if we go to a third level we can add a third line in addition to race track and even have some crossovers and long bridge spans and tunnels here and there plus there and maybe there." Oh and a switch track needs to be added at the ends incase a new section or table is added even though "nope only doing one table no matter what" but you know gotta have an out lol


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Model Power really isn't on my acquisition list, but the boxes I've seen lately are red and black which woul lead me to guess they're from the MRC era (MRC's corporate colors are red and black also), but I honestly don't know.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> MichaelE,
> 
> Thank you for your response,
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

I will try to answer your questions. If I miss one (or more) you will probably find the answer in the attached files. I have a sneaking senile suspicion that I have sent these files to you before, If so tell me and please ignore the duplication. I'm old. I send the files to many newbies, and I don't always remember to whom I've sent them.

You asked;

What's the point of a dummy locomotive? Simply a cheap way of making the train look like it has two locomotives pulling it, like many real trains do.

"Can we add a second powered locomotive?" Yes. Unlike a dummy, a second powered locomotive will help pull the train, rather than just add drag to it. If you can find a powered "F-unit" diesel locomotive that is the same brand, but maybe doesn't have the same "Santa Fe"paint job & markings you could swap the body shells and turn your dummy into a powered loco. Your improved power pack may help with running two powered locomotives. They will draw more electrical current than a single locomotive. Be on the lookout for a deal on a used MRC (Model Rectifier Corp.) power pack. They are excellent quality, can easily power two or more locos, and are practically indestructible. I recently dusted off my 50 year old one, and it works like new!

"What was that flat car with the strange framework on top, used for?" The cars hauled pressurised tanks of helium gas. They were very unusual cars. I converted one to a much more common "bulkhead" flat car by cutting away the framework and leaving the ends intact. Bulkhead flats are used for hauling pulpwood, like the one on the right side of your third photo. They also haul other lumber and freight.

"Can we buy a new axle ? No. Not alone anyway. You can buy axles with wheels on them. The assembly of two wheels on the same axle is called a "wheelset." Several companies sell sets of replacement wheelsets, but they are not likely to match the wheels on your car. A better bet would be to buy a pair of Kadee brand complete truck assemblies with their excellent knuckle couplers attached, to replace both trucks on that car. This would give that car both much better rolling wheels and the best knuckle couplers in one shot.

"Where can we get a replacement brake wheel?" There are many detail parts, including brake wheels, available. You can check www.walthers.com to find a brake wheel. They are a huge wholesaler, and have just about everything train-related in their catalogue and on their website. You could order a brake wheel from walthers or from www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com Since you're not concerned about realistic appearance, a sequin with some magic marker colored-on spokes and rim, would be a cheaper option. 

"How do you solder rail joints together, without melting the plastic ties?" By using "heat sinks" on either side of the joint to be soldered. Heat sinks help keep excessive heat from getting to the plastic ties. Alligator clips, used in electronics, make excellent heat sinks. So do the long aluminum clips that women use to hold their hair around hair curling rollers. Even paper towels, soaked with cold water, and draped over the track, can be used as heat sinks.

Soldering the rail joiners and the two rail ends to each other will form a good physical and perfect electrical contact between the sections of your track. The rail ends need to be lined up very straight and even with each other first, so that the joint will be smooth and not cause derailments. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You should try soldering rail after forgetting to install a rail joiner... Good thing they were butted up to one another and flush..


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

traction fan,

Thank you for the reply, We do not believe you sent us those files, You did welcome us to the forum in the introduction section. (again thank you) 

We get the idea of a dummy for looks, Just does not make sense for it to be so heavy. The plan WAS to just buy another locomotive as long as you can run two, and thank you for the tip on the MRC. We will be on the lookout for one.

With that said, we took the tip form another helpful poster and took the dummy car apart and can easily remove some weight with the bottom piece that is probably about 30% if not more of the cars total weight. But, after looking at it, and then taking apart the powered locomotive....would it be possible to just add a motor and shafts to dummy car? Hate to have to buy another locomotive and waste this car if we can just upgrade it.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Traction fan (part 2) 

Thank you, we'd been curiously wondering what that (ROCO) car would be used for, it's rather weird and if you say not commonly used we'll leave it as is. 

Sorry for the incorrect terminology, We have been looking at different styles and now we know to look at entire truck assemblies too. 

On a side note to that, while looking at all the cars we discovered that the tyco wheelsets are terrible, yes some of these cars are used but, they wobble (as if they were bent) on all cars, have serious plastic flaws or excess on wheels themselves. Just using your hand to move them they feel rough driving. (probably a good reason they rate so low) So these cars will need to be upgraded first with wheelsets or trucks.

Thank you for the tips on soldering. We definitely need to get a small hobby soldering iron, our current gun is way to big for this stuff. 

A very special thanks for all the files sent, they will come in very handy


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

While taking the advice of some replies, We are also exploring the option of getting a second identical locomotive. When looking identical brand (Model Power) and markings "Sante Fe" (red bonnet?) we have noticed some are F2, F2A, and F3. What is the difference? Our unit is F3

Also, since we are already laying out a second line, the Idea was to maybe do a Burlington Northern line, since as we learned, they run in same area of country and eventually merged.

One is Made in Austria or Atlas (ROCO?) Burlington Northern 853 diesel engine 20-12-109

The other is a (part #) 0570 Bachmann EMD GP 40

Still have not found a Athearn (as recommended by a member here ) one we like yet


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

If it says Made in Austria, it is a Roco product.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So now you are starting to realize why most of us don't want Tyco....

As MichaelE pointed out, Roco is an Austrian company. Atlas is an American one (although like almost everyone else, their production occurs in China).

You COULD convert the dummy to a powered loco (as I suspected, it's a production model without the powertrain), but it would be a lot of work. By the time you get the parts and invest the labor, it's cheaper to buy one.

The F2, F2A, and F3 are progressively more powerful / sophisticated locks that generally had the same outward configuration (the F indicated that it was a "freight" unit). Sometimes the number is a shorthand for horsepower, but not in this case (see SD and GP models). The A sometimes meant a significant upgrade; in this case, it appears to be an "A" unit, which contained a crew cab and controls, as opposed to a B unit, with just the generator, motors, and associated equipment.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

As was said, the model power dummies are often on the same weighed chassis as the powered examples. However, by the time you buy the motor, shafts, geared trucks, etc you'd have more in it than just buying another used MP loco.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I've been looking at doing similar. But my dummy B car is a special edition. But I think it's going to be easier to but a petted unit and swap shells. I MIGHT just for fun tackle the conversion anyway. But it seems the components are almost as much as the loco itself.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE said:


> If it says Made in Austria, it is a Roco product.


We had seen an item that said ROCO/Atlas and made in Austria so that's why we asked.

We also looked at our "tyco" track that came with our lot buy, but upon closer inspection you can see "made in Austria" on the bottom. Both steel and brass tracks


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTValleyRR,

yes we thought the tyco dislike was more about looks and finer cosmetic detail. But once it was mentioned about metal wheelsets, We took pictures and blew them up. The wheels looked terrible, and as stated the axle were not true. With that said we will still by more....basically looking for the operating loaders and unloaders and dumps. Just things he can play with. 

Here us the problem with the dummy car...its useless...it's wasted weight being hauled around when in its place could be 5-7 other cars. Yes it would be easier and cheaper to buy another locomotive....but, the dummy will still be sitting around and it will drive dad nuts knowing it can be made to work.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Eilif,

New or used price all seem to be around $30.00 for a Model Power Locomotive that is same model.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

KGB Railways said:


> Eilif,
> New or used price all seem to be around $30.00 for a Model Power Locomotive that is same model.


IMHO, Unless it's a particularly uncommon livery, $30 for a MP loco is just not worth it. You can get an Athearn for that much. You might pay 10-15 bucks at a train show for a working MP, but unfortunately Covid has put the kybosh on train shows right now.

If it's your dad's sensibilities you're worried about, maybe buy a powered unit and sell the dummy? You can buy a motor that will work for a couple bucks online but I'm not even sure you can find a seller who has the powered trucks for Model Power locos.

That's the thing about cheap locos like these is that it's almost always cheaper to buy a whole new loco than to buy a whole drivetrain. Also, dummies are usually on the same chassis as powered.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Traction fan (part 2)
> 
> Thank you, we'd been curiously wondering what that (ROCO) car would be used for, it's rather weird and if you say not commonly used we'll leave it as is.
> 
> ...



KGB Railways;

You are quite welcome for the files and answers. That's one of the main reasons this forum exists, for the experienced modelers to answer questions from newbies, and to pass on some of their experience to the new people. Don't sweat the incorrect terminology. We "experienced modelers" (aka Old farts) have heard many questions, phrased many different ways , from many people. We are fairly good at interpretation. One of the files I just sent you is "Model Railroad Terminology." It has 48 pages of terms, so don't feel you need to wade through all that! Rather, you can use it as a sort of dictionary and look up any terms used here that you're not familiar with. If you are inclined to read any of my files, (which is entirely your option) I recommend starting with "Where Do I Start" (duh!) and then the first installment of "How to build a better first layout." I realize that you folks are just experimenting at this point, and therefore much of the info in the files may not apply to what you're doing now. However, If you are well and truly bitten by the model train bug (and aren't we all?) You will probably find more info that will help later on. I wrote the files specifically to help new model railroaders like you. There was also a certain amount of lazy self interest involved too. I found myself typing and re-typing the same answers to the same questions each time another newbie joined the forum. The files save a lot of repeat typing. 

If you decide to keep your rough-riding Tyco cars, you may not be able to find an exact match in axle length among the aftermarket wheelsets from companies like Intermountain, Fox Valley Models, or Kadee. The axle length is the important factor, not the wheel sizes like 33" and 36". Those differences are more important on real railroads than model railroads. The difference in actual wheel diameter in HO-scale will only be a tiny fraction of an inch. Advanced modelers, interested in accuracy, will tend to use the same diameter wheels as the "prototype" (real, full-sized) car had. For just replacing those awful Tyco not-all-that-round-wheels though, the diameter won't be critical, and any aftermarket wheelset will be a distinct improvement in rolling without wobbling. 
The differences in axle length are also tiny fractions of an inch, but they can be enough to either let the wheelsets fall out of the truck frames or bind them enough that the wheels won't turn freely. For this reason, and because those cheap Tyco truck frames aren't very good either, I suggest replacing the entire truck assemblies, rather than just the wheelsets. In HO-scale you have many choices of quality trucks with metal wheels and with, or without couplers attached to the trucks.
If you look through your present collection of freight cars, I think you will find most of them have the couplers mounted to the trucks, rather than to the frame of the car. I think you will also find that most of the couplers on your cars are not knuckle couplers, but the older "horn-hook" type couplers. For just playing around now, you may want to keep the horn-hook couplers. In most cases they couple easily and are very unlikely to accidentally uncouple, though I guess you do have a few cars with unwanted uncoupling problems. If you stay interested in model railroading (very likely!) then sooner or later, you'll want to convert to using knuckle couplers, specifically Kadee brand knuckle couplers.

This will bring up an important decision for you to make. Truck-mounted couplers and body-mounted couplers each have their advantages, and disadvantages. What you should NOT do is to mix some truck mounted and some body mounted couplers. That can lead to derailments, and other problems. For more info on couplers read my file "A Lot About Couplers." 
Good news on that Marklin flat car with the construction equipment load. You can use it, if you replace the Marklin truck assemblies (including the wheelsets) and Marklin couplers. I suggest Kadee all-metal trucks and Kadee couplers.

For a soldering iron, any 30-40 watt pencil iron should work. You're right about soldering guns. They typically start at one hundred and forty watts instead of forty watts or less. They are too powerful for soldering track.
The solder itself should be the 60/40 lead tin rosin core type of solder used for electrical soldering. Do not use "acid core solder." That's used by plumbers to solder copper pipe. It will damage your track. There is also a good deal of governmental hysteria going on now concerning lead. (At least here in the nanny state of California) You will likely encounter various brands of "lead free solder." Don't waste your time or money on it. I just bought some excellent solder on Amazon. It's Kester brand 60/40 rosin core complete with lead, and it works very well. I also recommend Oatey brand water based soldering flux, which is available at Home Depot, or online. I make my own turnouts, crossings and other special trackwork. All are made by soldering code 55 rail to PC board ties, so I've soldered quite a few rails. (see photos)

Good Luck & Keep Having Fun!

Traction Fan 🙂


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Eilif,

The prices we are looking at are in the range you mentioned. It's the shipping that adds to the cost. 

There is a hobby store near us so we are going to check that out. 

The plan now is possibly by same model but with different markings and then we have option of dual locomotives pulling one train of 20 cars...or using them separate and each pull 10 cars.

We've been trying to find a way to incorporate second line. Each way presents challenges. What we want to do is have all the "operating" tyco accessories that our son can play with, while at same time leaving enough room for race track to be fast and big as possible. 

Multiple layers, bridges, both short and long span have been considered.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Traction fan,

Your files and your post are very very helpful and much appreciated. While not exprets here, we are both professionals in our field and we know what is is like to have to answer a lot of newbie questions. That is why we always try to answer and thank everyone who take the time to reply to our questions. 

Looking at your work is amazing. Especially the details of the railroad ties. We have a railroad right behind our shop. So looking at your pics seeing crooked ties, short ties, broken ties....very very real. as is the pain on your rails. sides and top. It's unbelievable work. Well done sir!

Our next post will be of our "most likely" decided layout. Compared to your's...well don't be drinking anything when you look at it. We don't want you spitting out your drink laughing to hard.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

This is our tentative layout. It's what we could do based on what we currently have.

pre warning...no we are not nascar fans...but this track just worked out that way. It is a cool race track with pits you have to stop in and that makes the otherwise boring oval exciting. 

The race track. These cars are fast so we keep the track a basic oval with banked turns since our boy is only 4. You will notice the 6" section of track inside the track itself. We actually want that in. It raises the corner speeds and gives you time to set up for the criss cross section. If you do it right you can take out your competitor. (Rubbing is racing  ) But if we do that....

...the inner train track. This was built using all the pieces we got from a bulk buy. Some of it is brass, some of it is Steel. It is not currently tacked down. We wanted this track to simply go around the race track and put a nascar train set up around it to match race track. But, if we do that it limits our options on Tyco loading and unloading accessories. You can see the tyco unloading box car in upper left....that whole row, we want other tyco accessories to go there.
On the lower left you see the tyco truck terminal. Our son likes to play with that so it was put near his seat. At one time a basic oval was used, and we had a S turn in train track to go around pits. But derailment concerns put the skids and than and we put the straight in where we did and got around the pits.
Basically a smaller tighter oval gives us plenty of accessory room but requires a bridge that will get in the way. A Larger oval gets around pits, but either takes away accessory room or requires smaller track? It's a compromise, but one we are not 100% admitting defeat on yet

The outer track. It is tacked down. We wanted this to be the freight track and have all our unloaders and loaders on this line. But again to do this interferes with other plans.

Part of our solution was, pull the track in closer and have bridges go over the pits and control box closest to edge. But, then you'd have to reach over the bridge to access cars in pit road. Not ideal. So we'd rather no go that route.

No matter what we come up with, the trains will still be elevated from the race track. The track will have walls to help keep cars in, because when they do go off the track, if they hit a train car...unlike real life...here the cars win.

p.s. if you have not guessed yet, the black/yellow lines are were we are going to put switch track in in case the day comes we add another table and we can connect them.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Now, here is a tricky (for us) question. As you can see two seperate tracks two separate controllers. Can we add a crossover section from outer track to inner track? 

In other words, we want to run two trains separate of each other, but also have the option of running one train than can run inner and/or outer tracks.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Now, here is a tricky (for us) question. As you can see two seperate tracks two separate controllers. Can we add a crossover section from outer track to inner track?
> 
> In other words, we want to run two trains separate of each other, but also have the option of running one train than can run inner and/or outer tracks.


CAN you? Of course you can. You can work in an isolated section of track with switches to control which power pack is feeding it.

But by the time you get to that level of complexity, you've arrived at a situation where DCC, which allows independent control of multiple locos, provides a much simpler and user-friendly solution, albeit a more costly one. But if this is something you really want to do, consider a DCC starter system. Keep in mind, though, that with a layout that small, the number and length of trains will be very limited.

As you have already realized, your dreams of a railroad empire have already exceeded your available space. One other issue? What radius of curve are you using on those tracks? Anything less than 18" will start to cause problems, and some bigger / longer equipment (6 axle diesels, steamers with more than 6 drivers, and cars longer than 50 scale feet, as a thumb rule) won't run well, even on 18" curves.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTValleyRR,

Well the second track was not part of the plan...but "someone" can not let parts sit by and do nothing. So a way was found to use it. right down to only a few leftover pieces that is "still going to waste"

Really just want to run two smaller separate trains at a time but option to run one larger on both tracks. If we can do it without DCC it would be prefered at this time. Even if we just put in the section you are talking about so if we choose later on we don't have to rip stuff up. What would that isolated section look like? Any links to purchase some would be greatly appreciated

As far as we know they are 18" turns. We know what you mean though, we have a white 50' box car that when it goes through the turns you can tell it's not entirely happy. It's why we have stayed away from long cars.

p.s. the reason for the 4x8 base...in case of a move it can fit in the bed of a pickup....which is funny because we have a 16' cube van that is almost 8' wide...lol...great now we have no excuse NOT to go bigger.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> CTValleyRR,
> 
> Well the second track was not part of the plan...but "someone" can not let parts sit by and do nothing. So a way was found to use it. right down to only a few leftover pieces that is "still going to waste"
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

While I agree with CTValley's thinking, in terms of DCC for the highly likely expansion of KGB Railways track mileage, it is quite possible, and easy, to add a crossover, without DCC or an isolated track section. (One of the photos I sent last time shows a crossover that I built for the "Cedar Falls" section* of my railroad. I added it below too.)

You don't necessarily need to incorporate the electrically isolated section CTValley recommended. By the way, that's not a finished part that you buy. It would just be a stretch of ordinary track with plastic, insulated, rail joiners in both rails at both ends of that section of track. This electrically isolated section would also need its own pair of feeder wires connected to the center two terminals of a DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) electrical toggle switch that would select which of your two power packs the isolated section was connected to. That is a normal method, and a good general practice, but there is a simple "bare bones" alternative.

(You also don't have to scratchbuild the two required turnouts like crazy Traction Fan did! )

If you connect your two loops with a pair of commercial turnouts (Peco brand turnouts highly recommended) and put plastic insulated rail joiners on both rails where the turnouts connect to each other, that's all that is really needed.

However, there are some pretty severe operating limitations inherent in this simple solution. By keeping both turnouts set for the loops, you will be able to run just as you have been up to now. If you set both turnouts to the crossover position, a single train will be able to run from the outer loop, onto the inner loop. If there was already a second train on that inner loop, you will lose individual control of the trains. Both will now be controlled by the one power pack that is wired to the inside loop. They will both speed up, slow down, or reverse, together. Also, neither of the trains will be able to get from the inner loop back to the outer loop, unless they back out across the crossover, or you add a second crossover. For this two crossover idea to work right, one crossover should be made up of two right-hand turnouts and the other crossover should be made with two left-hand turnouts. Both crossovers will need both of their rails insulated with plastic rail joiners where the rails of one turnout connect to the other. This two crossover scheme will allow a train to run forward between loops both onto, and then back off, the inner, (or the outer) loop. However, the "one-power-pack-controlling-both-trains" effect will still be true any time both trains are on the same loop.
This is why CTValley suggested using either electrically isolated sections (called "blocks") or DCC. With either the isolated blocks of the "Dual Cab Control" DC system, or the much simpler wiring of DCC, you can control two trains individually, while both are on the same loop.
You mentioned either running two short trains on separate loops, or running one long train from loop to loop. The simple two crossover setup will do this, as long as there is only one train being run from loop to loop.


* "Cedar Falls" was a real village in Washington state, where my railroad is set. Sections are strongly recommended. You have already discovered two of the limitations of a 4' x 8' layout. It's not particularly easy to transport, and you are being limited in what portion of your model railroad dreams you can accomplish by the size of a piece of lumber! You should be shaping the wooden "benchwork"/table to fit your railroad vision. It should not be shaping/limiting your visions to fit the table. Yes. of course there are real life limits in terms of room size, pocketbook, available time & money, but they usually can easily exceed 4' x 8'. Don't limit yourselves to "thinking in 4' x 8' rectangular blobs."
My own (N-scale) railroad is made up of 4' x 16" sections. It was very easy to move when my family relocated to a different city. It has also made working on it possible as I grew old and partially disabled. Section 3 & 4 Of the "How to build a better first layout" files I sent you shows sketches of different layouts made up of 4' x 18" sections in various patterns & scales to fit in a 9' x 12' room. I strongly recommend that you build any future layout expansions in sections of 4' x 24" or so. You may even later decide to cut your existing 4' x 8' table into four 4' x 24"' sections. The sections can be used like building blocks. (Legos for the younger set, who may never have seen old fashioned wooden blocks!) You can use a curved track-containing section in a corner, and add some extra straight sections down the wall to reach another curve, etc.
While no one is under any compulsion to read any of the files I sent you, I have to ask if you have read any of them yet?
I only ask this rather impertinent question because the questions you asked, that in turn triggered this response from me, are answered in the files. Understand, I'm not complaining, just curious.

Keep having Family Fun!

Traction Fan 🙂

PS I got a chuckle from your comment about my "realistic" crooked ties, & broken ties. Most of those "realistic" things were unintentional, though I do try to avoid the too perfectly regular tie placement look of commercial track. The painting and weathering of my turnouts is intentional though, and requires some effort, so thank you!


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

KGB, you can do what you want with a "loco genie" installed in each locomotive. They can be had for around $40 a piece and will allow you to control each train independently with a little remote. They also are supposed to work as a DCC encoder if you want to go that route later. They also give you sound and control of lighting 

I don't have much experience with them yet. I have two, but not installed. Since people here seem to look down on them for some reason, but I don't really see the issue.

Just a thought

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Vettekid

When you start connecting two independent ovals, each with current from
it's own power pack, you begin getting into complicated wiring and complicated
operations. In order to make your 'crossover' electrically correct, you should
make certain that the 'outside' rail of BOTH ovals is Positive, and the inside
rails are Negative. Else, when your loco spans the required insulated joiners
you would have a short circuit. For best operating, it would be good to have
a 'spur track' where you could 'park' a loco A when you want to bring loco B
thru the crossover. Considerations of the above are why our guys have
brought up DCC...which lets you run the two trains, independently controlled,
with only one controller, no special wiring, no insulated joiners, and no
need for the 'parking' spur. But then, you would need DCC decoders for
your locos. Oh me oh my, a modelers work is never done.

Don


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I should clarify, if you use loco genie you only need one power supply. As mentioned, I'm new to this and still learning, but I see no reason it wouldn't work. It's not as sophisticated as full DCC, but it should work.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> KGB, you can do what you want with a "loco genie" installed in each locomotive. They can be had for around $40 a piece and will allow you to control each train independently with a little remote. They also are supposed to work as a DCC encoder if you want to go that route later. They also give you sound and control of lighting
> 
> I don't have much experience with them yet. I have two, but not installed. Since people here seem to look down on them for some reason, but I don't really see the issue.
> 
> ...





vette-kid said:


> KGB, you can do what you want with a "loco genie" installed in each locomotive. They can be had for around $40 a piece and will allow you to control each train independently with a little remote. They also are supposed to work as a DCC encoder if you want to go that route later. They also give you sound and control of lighting
> 
> I don't have much experience with them yet. I have two, but not installed. Since people here seem to look down on them for some reason, but I don't really see the issue.
> 
> ...


vette-kid;

What is a "loco genie" ? I have not heard of that before. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> I don't have much experience with them yet. I have two, but not installed. Since people here seem to look down on them for some reason, but I don't really see the issue.


One reason, vette, is that a different throttle is required for each loco.
Another is that you cannot access the CV's on the decoders without buying into a bigger system.
A third reason is that MRC decoders have built up a poor reputation for quality and durability, justified or not.
I believe all these statements to be accurate. For this reason, I'm out. 😆
The Genie is not the path I would recommend for someone to enter into DCC. IMO


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

cid said:


> One reason, vette, is that a different throttle is required for each loco.
> Another is that you cannot access the CV's on the decoders without buying into a bigger system.
> A third reason is that MRC decoders have built up a poor reputation for quality and durability, justified or not.
> I believe all these statements to be accurate. For this reason, I'm out.
> The Genie is not the path I would recommend for someone to enter into DCC. IMO


With loco genie your do not need additional throttles. Each loco will be controlled with it's own wireless remote if on DC or through a DCC controller like any other DCC equipped loco. 

I'm not too sure about "accessing CVs". You can reprogram functions and adjust speed steps, sounds values, breaking function etc without any special equipment. 

I'm sure it more limited than some DCC operations, but for a simple setup to independently control 2 or 3 locos, especially by different people, I think this is the perfect solution. Dad can control one and son can control one independently (try not to crash!). If your are running 5 trains by yourself, the remotes probably aren't a good solution. But for just a few and for different people controlling them seems like a good answer.

Your may be right on the durability,I just don't know, time will tell. There is at least one member on here who seems to have good success with them though. And a bunch of people with no experience with them.

I'll refrain from saying more on it until I have now experience with them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjACegQIAhAC&usg=AOvVaw3qrPpSuDAJfVeg-IDWKszn 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

traction fan said:


> vette-kid;
> 
> What is a "loco genie" ? I have not heard of that before.
> 
> Traction Fan


See link above. Basically turns your locomotive into a remote controlled train.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

vette-kid said:


> With loco genie your do not need additional throttles. Each loco will be controlled with it's own wireless remote if on DC or through a DCC controller like any other DCC equipped loco.
> 
> I'm not too sure about "accessing CVs". You can reprogram functions and adjust speed steps, sounds values, breaking function etc without any special equipment.
> 
> I'm sure it more limited than some DCC operations, but for a simple setup to independently control 2 or 3 locos, especially by different people, I think this is the perfect solution. Dad can control one and son can control one independently (try not to crash!). If your are running 5 trains by yourself, the remotes probably aren't a good solution. But for just a few and for different people controlling them seems like a good answer.


I don't think people are "looking down on" LocoGenie so much as we are pushing back against the notion that it is an acceptable substitute for DCC. It may be right for some people's needs; I don't argue with that, but you need to be careful not to oversell a solution that is right for your situation rather than be clear-eyed about it's limitations. It often happens that someone will find something that works for them and hype it to everyone as the greatest thing ever to hit the hobby, despite the fact that others will have and want a different experience.

As I pointed out earlier, it doesn't take too many locomotives before the cost of installing this system exceeds the cost of a DCC system and decoders.

The limited ability to adjust performance on a LocoGenie compared to a full DCC system is like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford Focus. Both will get you from one place to another, but otherwise there's not much similarity. Granted, many, even most users may not NEED all that functionality, but it's a clear difference that must be acknowledged, especially if you're recommending it to others.

Most importantly though, is the difference that would be a deal breaker for many: You absolutely DO need additional throttles with LocoGenie. One per locomotive, in fact. Two locomotives and two operators isn't a big deal. But I know what a PITA it is trying to find the remote for the BlueRay player, or the cable box, or the TV, etc, and I darned sure don't want to play that game with my hobby. With DCC, you need ONE throttle per OPERATOR, no matter how many locomotives you have. I personally have 17 locomotives and 3 throttles. I only need one when I'm operating solo -- just call up the address of the loco you want, and you're off.

All that said, I agree with you that the OP should look into LocoGenie, because it may be right for his situation, too.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

@CTValleyRR your points are understood. I can't really imagine needing that much more control, perhaps that will change with time. Like I said, for someone with two or three i think it's a great solution. If my collection grows beyond that, the genie equipped trains are compatible with a DCC controller so I am ready to expand. I can't imagine juggling that many locos! Better yet, I can't imagine my wife being ok with me buying that many!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Let me give you the viewpoint of someone who got started with trains at age 6 in the early 1960s. My dad bought a couple sets of American Flyer and some extra stuff and tack including several cars with autoloading and unloading capability along with the accessories that went with it. We had a usable attic and I spent hours up there making layouts on the floor and running trains and playing with them. That was the fun. Running them and playing with them.

About age 10 we changed from S gauge to HO gauge because you could get more in the same space. However, that meant no more floor layouts as the floor was not smooth enough for HO. So we built a platform up there. An like you it was a dual purpose platform - HO trains and HO slot cars, sometimes separate sometimes together. Again the fun for me was laying track and running the trains. It was all sectional track so it could easily be taken apart and put together.
The equipment was mostly Tyco, Mantua, and AHM . I had a few Athearn cars. At Christmas tim we set up a 4 x 6 train layout with a town. 2 ovals of track and a couple years ran the slot car track as the town streets and had cars driving around town.

In my teen years it started to fade. When I went to college in 1973 it got boxed up and stayed that way until I got married in 1990. Then I broke it out when I had 2 boys. Same stuff. Brass sectional track, Atlas snap switches. A little clean up and lube and they ran well. Got a new MRC power pack and we were set. 4 x 8. When they got a bit older we added slot cars. Usually it was trains for autumn and winter, slot cars spring and summer.

We started with a double oval and then added more complexity. Each year the layout changed. When they got old enough they picked up the mantle and started making the train and slot car layouts.

When they left home I kept it up and switched from DC to DCC. Here is a picture of my current layout.
2 ovals connected with an interchange. A spur line on the inside with sidings and industries. The buildings are lighted. It is all sectional track. The switches (turnouts) are Atlas Snap Switches. Not a soldered joint on it. I have fun with it and have had no problems with it. The table top is homosote. Easy to attach the track to with small nails.










Here is a closeup of the interchange.









Now I said all this with one purpose in mind.

You are getting a lot of advice from folks who are serious modelers that spend a lot of time building their layouts.
I'm suggesting you do not need to nor should you want to get that complicated right now. You have a 4 year old that will want to run trains, not spending a lot of time building and getting things perfect, and will want to change things once they get bored with the current setup.

You have been told about NMRA standards, truck tuners, weight standards, coupler height guages, Peco turnouts, flex track, and much more. Enough to make your head spin, I'll bet.

I'm 65 now and have never bothered with or had any of those things.

Here are the things I found out in all my years.

Flex track - yes there are less joints but you then have to cut the track to custom length and custom curves. Creating curves is not the easiest thing in the world. There are templates that you can get ($) or you can spend time doing it manually. When you take up a layout, chances are you won't be able to reuse much of it. IMO not the type of thing a young child want to sit and watch.

Sectional track - easy to assemble and disassemble and get a layout together quickly. Tack it down and make sure the joints are tight and smooth and that there are no kinks in the track. Spend you time getting the track work smooth. THe straights should be straight (Use a straightedge), the curves should be smooth. 

Elevation - having track go up and down hill can create an issue with the transition from flat to going up or down hill. The transition has to be gradual, if not it will lead to derailing or uncoupling. It's harder to do with sectional track because you tend to get a bit of a kink at the joint. This is one place where flex track can help. For this reason I kept my layouts flat. This is where flex track can help.

Peco turnouts - great quality but the problem with use with sectional track is that they are not designed for use with it. You will have to cut sections of flex track to make them fit.

Atlas switches (turnouts) are designed to be used with sectional track and fit right in. I've had no real issues with them.

Metal wheels reduce rolling friction and were well worth the time and $. The cars rolled much more smoothly and effortlessly.

Car weight - lighter cars tend to derail easier especially if they are at the end of the train. Add a little weight- just enough to make them more stable. Don't worry about the exact weight they should be. The correct weight is the amount that makes them stable. Lighter cars can also be an issue at the front of the train as the weight and drag behind them can cuse them to tip sidways and come off the track.

Your current cars have mostly truck mounted couplers. These become problematic when trying to back up. The pressure exerted on the trucks causes them to derail. Particularly frustrating if you add sidings and want to back cars into them. I believe you have 1 athearn car. Notice how the coupler is mounted on the body. For your future car purchases look for body mounted couplers. Look for athearn used, accurail or accurail kits (assembly is pretty easy) or even Bachman Silver series are a good value. The Bachmann Silver Series already come with metal wheels and knuckle couplers.

Couplers - We used horn hook couplers for years (the type that are on your locomotive and most of your cars). But when I upgraded my cars I got all knuckle couplers because it made it easier to hook and unhook the cars when putting cars on sidings. They also tend to not uncouple. Horn hooks also tend to uncouple when backing up. Knuckle couplers do not.

Locomotives - There are several new moderately inexpensive makes out there that are good. Walters Trainline, Bachmann, Model Power, Athearn Roundhouse for between $40 - $60. I can vouch for Walters Trainline and Bachmann. The nice thing about some of the Bachmanns are that they are DCC ready, meaning that if you convert from DC to DCC all you need to do is plug in a decoder. For a little more Bachmannn has DCC on board which will run on DC without having to adjust anything. THey are dual mode and can run on both. It's what I got when I converted. They ran on my DC layout then when I switched over, I could run them on my DCC setup after programming them.

If looking at used, Athearn blue box locomotives are durable and good pullers. Don't pay more than $40.

I know this was long, but I just wanted to give you the easier side of model trains as I have been doing it and enjoying it. Sometimes I jut like to watch them run, sometimes I like to "play" with them putting cars on and off sidings like a puzzle. Train A has cars 1, 2, 3 that need to go to an industry. Train B has cars 4,5,6 that that need to go to and industry. Pick up the cars that are already there. Then figure out how to do it.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Dave! Thank you for that perspective! 👍


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Traction fan,

we certainly appreciate all your expertise and will continue to thank you for your time and efforts. You did say this....

"You mentioned either running two short trains on separate loops, or running one long train from loop to loop. The simple two crossover setup will do this, as long as there is only one train being run from loop to loop."

That is basically were we are at and looking for at this time. However, we have read the rest of your post and most of your files...a lot longer than we first expected so it took some time and as you have noticed maybe we missed a few things. It is all a lot to take in right now. But all these post from you, your files and post form others are not wasted. the information is stored and or kept to this one thread for us to reference in future.

As for the 4x8 layout and your recommendations, we hear you. However, despite our little humor about transporting it, (like we said have a cube van so we could go bigger) The real reason is, if you take a look at our layout, the center piece is a race track. Kinda hard to put that particular track and anything but a 4x8. With that said, If we ever did decide to expand...the plan is to have seperate 4x8 tables with different race tracks apart from one another and have small sections like 2'x24" linking them together that the trains would run on. 

Regardless your information and recommendations are welcome and appreciated.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Vette-kid,

we will be looking into the loco genie as well as DCC in near future.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

DonR,

while we know you were originally replying to Vete-Kid we did benefit from your comments...so thank you for your reply


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTValleyRR,

Like DonR we realize you were replying to vette-kid, but again we benefited form your comments so thank you.

One thing you did say that really hit home with us....

"The limited ability to adjust performance on a LocoGenie compared to a full DCC system is like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford Focus. Both will get you from one place to another, but otherwise there's not much similarity. Granted, many, even most users may not NEED all that functionality, but it's a clear difference that must be acknowledged, especially if you're recommending it to others. "

We can certainly relate to this. What we do in our everyday life is build a high end product in a certain field. In fact we kinda pioneered it, at least in modern times. Since then there have been many copy cats who have taken a...shall we say less than ideal approach. We, as with our supports often say...(we) build Ferraris and they build Corvettes. So thank you for that analogy.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

DaveMD,

Thank you for your post, at this time we have to step away, but we will be back later to better reply to your comments. Until then thanks again.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Dave is spot-on with what he has posted. I too would have been quite satisfied with a layout such as his in the eighties or even the early nineties. It has a lot of operating possibilities and variation.

After reading about all of the advancements that have been made in the over 30 years since I was away from the hobby, I wanted all of those improvements I read about, I wanted to build scenery, multiple levels, add minute details when I could, use DCC, etc. All of the things that were not possible 35 years ago due to either finances or family.

I'm sort of an all-or-nothing kind of person and if I'm going, I'm going all out if I can afford it. And if I can't, I'll save until I can. I sort of did that with my Boeing 727 simulator too.

I would have never dreamed of the layout I have built 30+ years ago, and it just keeps getting better with new ideas, new directions, and almost unlimited possibilities. Except space.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Traction fan,
> 
> we certainly appreciate all your expertise and will continue to thank you for your time and efforts. You did say this....
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

The files are simply recommendations from me to the reader. Yes they are long, but model railroading can be a bit complex to describe. Anyone who elects to read my files can, and should pick and choose only the information that they feel applies to their individual situation. Much of the information in the files is probably not directly applicable to what you are doing right now, some is, and the rest can wait until you feel like going further. For instance, at the moment you don't have any turnouts. You want to transition from one loop to the other and back. To do that, you will need at least two, and probably four turnouts. You have several brand choices. I recommended Peco specifically because of their high reliability (no/few derailments) their simplicity, (they have a built-in spring that lets them work without a "Switch Machine." (The electric device that changes the route) provided the turnouts are within reach. (On your small layout that shouldn't be a problem.) , And finally, their rugged construction. ( you have young operators)

Dave from MD makes some very good points in his excellent post. I will slightly disagree with only one of them. He mentions that Atlas Snap Switch turnouts are made to fit right into a sectional track layout. That's true. Atlas "Snap Switches" are part of their "Snap Track" line, and have a unique geometry in order to let them be substituted for either a 9" straight section, or an 18" radius curved section of Atlas snap track. That makes them easy to connect into an Atlas sectional track layout. However to get that tight curve into a turnout, Atlas had to "sort of cheat" by linking short sections of straight track and tight curved track and a kinked gap between them. This does not mean that Atlas turnouts are unusable, but those things and their oversized flangeways are likely to cause problems at some point. Sometimes early on, and sometimes later on, and , to be fair, possibly never. Atlas Snap Switches can be modified to work much more reliably. The modifications are relatively simple, and, big surprise, I have a file for that. 😄 Peco turnouts though are renowned among model railroaders for working perfectly right out of the box. Fitting a few small bits of flex track to them is very simple, and, in the case of your crossovers, you may not even need any flex track fillers. One more thing about Snap Switches. They have curved track on the route that a train would take to "crossover" from one loop to the other. When assembled into a crossover, the curves in the two Snap Switches form a "reverse curve" which is a potential derailment cause, especially if you choose to use only one crossover, and have to back the train through it to get it back on the loop it came from. Backing a string of cars with truck-mounted X-2F couplers, through a reverse curve is very likely to cause a derailment.
Peco, and other model turnouts, including Atlas's own "Custom Line" turnouts, don't have curved track in them. Therefore there would be no reverse curve in a crossover made of Peco turnouts. 

That's a long explanation of a bit of info from my files, that you can use now. Leave all the rest that you don't need. You have a simple layout that you're happy with, run trains on it and have fun!

Traction Fan 🙂


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

DavefromMD,

Thank you for that prospective. Your early experiences are somewhat similar to Dad....albeit more of them. 

The picture with the interchange, that is exactly the type of set up...or layout design we are looking for to connect the two ovals. Picture saved for sure. Thank you so much. Now we just understand the mechanics of it more. 

We knew coming in we were very inexperienced and would get a lot of advice from experts far above our design limits and experience. We don't mind the reading their recommendations. We will listen to all levels and make choices based on our situation(s) But it is always good to hear from all levels. Like you said and we have stated, this will go on as long as he is interested. If the day comes he no longer cares, it's a great hobby that will have some market for resale if they day should come. If not, no sweat off our back. You can't put a price on fun with your children. Besides he has 7 power wheels type cars/trucks and a gas powered atv. The money on this hobby is nothing compared to those cost...at least so far 

Flex Track....looked at it, never really felt the need as of yet for our application. 

Sectional Track....works fine for us and we know it will work with minimal problems as long as it's connected correctly. When we laid it down straight lines were mapped out and we started from there. Ends of oval were measured and all corner radius' were checked. 

The only current elevation change we have is just to get over track control wires...when permanently laid this will not be an issue. as is now the grade is very very gradual and when you sight down the track side there is no kinks or high/low spots. 

turnouts/switches, sounds like atlas are what we are after, unless someone has better idea and then we will weigh options. 

Car weight, what you describe is exactly what is going on. We had a good feeling some were to light. We have no problem following suggested weights, we already have scales and weights. If we are going to do it, no reason not to follow suggested guidelines.

Couplers are our biggest issue currently. We doubt we will go through and change them all, we will just address problem cars currently and make a certain cars work together. they will just always have to be in a certain order...at least the transition cars. 

As for locomotive, we've pretty much decided right now to get exact same model/make as current one, but with different color scheme. If we run one long train we'll use identical bodies, if we run two short, we can use other body. 

And do not worry about length of your post...look at some of ours...lol...more information is always good. Thank you very much for your time.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelIE,

It amazes us...especial Dad, how much Model Trains have come so far. We can certainly understand you...all or nothing attitude. Its how we became successful in our business. But sometime with somethings, it's nice to lay back and take it easy. that is our case here. 

Through our travels we have seen some really nice set ups. We even almost had time to stop at a Model Train Museum down south. Unfortunatley the timing did not work out. We may yet someday in our next trip in area.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Traction Fan,

We may have to go back to your post, not sure all the files downloaded properly. While on the subject, did they include Railroad or Model railroad terms. Sometimes we get lost reading the more technical replies when terms are used we are not familiar with.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Traction Fan,
> 
> We may have to go back to your post, not sure all the files downloaded properly. While on the subject, did they include Railroad or Model railroad terms. Sometimes we get lost reading the more technical replies when terms are used we are not familiar with.


KGB Railways;

Yes, The files I sent you should have included one titled "Model Railroad Terminology 3." I re-send it below, in case it did not go through. 
What brand of sectional track are you using? If it is Atlas "Snap Track" and you are using 18"radius curves (they should be marked 18"r on the bottom of the plastic tie strip) then that is the only brand/size combination of track where Atlas "Snap Switches will have their "fits right in" advantage. With any other brand, or curve radius, there will be no advantage in using Atlas Snap Switches. They will, however have all their disadvantages, probably including repeated intermittent derailments on them.
I recommended Peco over Atlas for this, and some other good, practical, reasons; in my last reply.
If you ever have any questions feel free to ask. If any of my replies or files, are unclear to you, please ask me for clairification. I will be happy to help in any way I can.
As for seeing "terms you are not familiar with", well, that's a natural part of being new, but remember, you should,( at least now) have my "Model Railroad Terminology" file with many model railroad terms arranged alphabetically in it. If you see a word you don't know here on the forum, you can probably find the definition easily in that file. 
If you do decide to use Atlas Snap Switch turnouts the file below explains the problems built into them, and fixes for those problems. I do feel you would be much better served by Peco turnouts, but I respect your right to make all the choices for your railroad. 

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

KGB Railways said:


> . We, as with our supports often say...(we) build Ferraris and they build Corvettes. So thank you for that analogy.


...I resemble that remark! 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Eilif,
> 
> thank you for your reply.
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

I was looking back through this thread and found what I think is an unanswered question from you. It is the last sentence in your post above. "Just out of curiosity, what makes track more, or less, accurate?" The answer is simply how closely the model track looks like real track. If you look online at Micro Engineering brand track, you should see what I mean. It looks almost exactly like the real thing. Despite this, and the fact that it is my personal favorite, I do not recommend Micro Engineering track, or turnouts, for you. The small spikes that help it's realistic appearance also make it too easy to pull a rail up from the ties. Not very suitable for a four-year old. (BTW My own four-year old grandson came to visit me this past weekend. Sunday was my birthday, He ran my N-scale train and had a great time! So did grandpa! My second grandchild is expected to be born today! Grandpa is a very happy guy! ) This brand also flexes oddly and with more careful attention required, and no sooner had I typed the word "flexes" than I remembered your not using flex track at all.

Keep Having Fun;

Traction Fan 😄


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Thank you Tracton Fan,

That looks like really nice track, but yes something we do not need...right now. Especially since he took a small hammer and was "pounding" on some track to get attention the other day.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Some updates,

we got our "Model Power" box car the other day. Well upon closer inspection it turns out to be another ROCO. This one however has differant trucks than our other ROCO.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Speaking of trucks, 

While looking at metal wheels, and remembering the suggestion of (Tracion Fan if correct) to look at trucks we came across these. Once dad saw the work "sprung" and realized they had working suspension...it was all over then as he is a suspension guru. The we realized they can go from 7.00 all the way up to 40-50 or even higher, we kinda settled on these to consider. 

The first car will me the Marklin and then the Tyco cars are in the worst as far as wheels and axles...yes we know most of you hardcore guys are probably shaking your heads about now with the notion of seeing money to upgrade a tyco...they will them as they are our sons favorite cars as. 

Now we know we are not the sticklers for perfection as many of you, nonetheless, if we are going to upgrade something we would like to be somewhat close. 

Any recommendations of what work be period and style correct? Or others in the same price range you might suggest?

First three are walthers, last one is Kadee. alos how do you remove the Marklin and tyco trucks. Also saw these "plugs" do they fill in the hole left behind for screws to tap into? (of course the computer had to put last picture first just to screw things up)


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

KGB, I can't answer any of your questions. I've been going through some of the same stuff with trying to redirect some old Tyco cars for my son that are missing trucks (replacements are evading me). Where did you find those plugs? 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

vette-kid,









Universal Truck Mounting Adapter pkg(24)


This set of WalthersProto Universal Truck Mounting Adapters simplifies installing WalthersProto trucks on other manufacturer's HO Scale passenger cars. Kit includes enough parts for 12 cars (two each), and each is a one-piece molding for easy installation. The Universal Truck Mounting Adapters...




www.walthers.com


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Sprung trucks: Go here for a good conversation on them... Nostalgia to now... a brief timeline

While I do like them they can cause wobble in places where the track isn't perfect. Believe me, all my track isn't perfect and it is noticeable.

I believe elsewhere in this thread it was recommended to stick with 33" wheels. I agree.

Ribbed or not ribbed wheels? Whatever, you can't see 'em. But if you're a stickler for period correct... http://sld-nmra.ca/freight_car/ref_material/freight_car_trucks_long.pdf

Here's a god thread on replacing Tyco trucks... replacing "pop out" trucks on old tyco cars --...

Once you start swapping out trucks and wheels a coupler height gauge is a must... Kadee - The Coupler People

... and some washers... Kadee - The Coupler People

You can also get those missing brake wheels and ladders at Kadee... Kadee - The Coupler People


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

My personal opinion on spring trucks is that they are a marketing gimmick. Our little models do not require them by any means, and performance does not noticeably benefit from using them. In fact, it may degrade by using them (see the previous post).

Still, it's your money and your railroad.

Either Kadee or Walthers is good quality. And yes, 33" wheels only for those cars. Using a 36" wheel would change the couple height just enough to cause potential problems. And you will probably emd up mounting new couplers to the body of the car.

For filling the holes, you can use those adapters, or just fill it with epoxy, JB weld, a sleeve of styrene tube, any gunk of old styrene, melted in place with styrene cement. The possibilities are endless.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Speaking of trucks,
> 
> While looking at metal wheels, and remembering the suggestion of (Tracion Fan if correct) to look at trucks we came across these. Once dad saw the work "sprung" and realized they had working suspension...it was all over then as he is a suspension guru. The we realized they can go from 7.00 all the way up to 40-50 or even higher, we kinda settled on these to consider.
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

You asked about truck types. First of all, one of the main reasons I suggested replacing truck assemblies vs. wheelsets at all, was to replace your trucks with couplers mounted on them (called "talgo" trucks) with new Kadee trucks with their excellent couplers already factory-mounted to them. This saves the work of body-mounting couplers. 
If you are , at least for now, sticking with the horn/hook couplers you have the most of, then you might prefer to replace just the wheelsets, rather than the entire truck assemblies. This would mean finding wheelsets that fit your present (Tyco, Model Power, Roco, whatever) trucks. That's probably possible, but might require buying several different axle-length replacement wheelsets, to try fitting them to your various brands of trucks. So that's another possible advantage to replacing the entire truck, it comes with wheels that fit. You would have to weigh the conveinence against the higher cost.

I have not used Walthers trucks, so I won't comment on them except to say that Walthers products are generally very good quality. So are Kadee products. I'm familiar with Kadee trucks (Actually the N-scale versions are sold under the name "Micro Trains" but, apart from the obvious scale/size difference, they are the same trucks.) The three common types of four-wheel freight truck offered by Kadee/ MT are "Arch bar" (used in the civil war/"wild west" era) "Bettendorf" ( Early 20th century up to 1960s) and "roller bearing" (1960s to the present) The only difference between the three types is external looks. Mechanically all three are identical internally. The appearance differences are also minor except for the arch bar design, which would be way to early for your cars anyway. Even in HO-scale, you would need to look somewhat carefully to tell a "Bettendorf" from a "roller bearing." I would simply use Bettendorf trucks, with 33" wheels, on all your cars. 

My N-scale, Micro Trains, trucks come with plastic wheels. They are excellent quality, very free-rolling, plastic wheels, but still plastic, not metal. I buy metal wheels separately, and replace the plastic originals.
With Kadee HO-scale trucks, you may have the option of metal wheels from the factory. If so, I would recommend metal over plastic. In fact, I've heard that Kadee offers all-metal trucks with both the wheels, and the truck frame assembly, made of metal. If so, use them. The more weight you can get low down in a car, the better that car will stay on the track. Also the all-metal construction may make them a little bit more child resistant, but I don't know. I only wish that Micro Trains offered all-metal trucks in N-scale.  

As for sprung trucks, I say no. Those little springs come out, and get lost, easily enough in adult hands. They are even more likely to do so when a four-year old handles them. Also, as CTValley said, they don't really help the ride any, and may even be detrimental in some circumstances. The only reason I would even consider sprung trucks would be if that were the only way I could get all-metal trucks. Even then, in your situation, I would not recommend them. Kadee trucks come with a set of adapters, slightly similar to the Walthers "plugs" in your photo. They also come with directions on using the adapters to fit their trucks to different brands of cars.

How to remove the old trucks will vary with the mounting system used by the particular car's manufacturer. Screws are obvious, and an excellent way of keeping trucks attached to the car. Other manufacturers, including Kadee, use some form of push-in pin that fits tightly into the car. Trucks fastened this way can usually be pried off the car with a small screwdriver. Stil other manufacturers use a sort of "expansion bolt" type of mechanism, where two plastic hooks just barely fit through the hole in the car floor, and then spread apart a little to hold the truck on. These can be tough to remove, and often break. The best way to remove these intact is to work a tiny jeweler's type screwdriver tip into the hole, and push one of the hooks inward. Since you won't be reusing this truck's fastener, you can just pry them out, and let them break. 

Finally, reading this thread, and answering your questions, has given me some insight into what you're doing. I get it. You are trying to build a simple, reasonably rugged, layout to share with your little boy and your wife. That's great! 
No one here is going to be sweating bullets over how "unrealistic" or "toy like" your cars, locomotives, layout, or other choices are. We are simply not that kind of nit picky forum. (as I've heard some other forums, sadly, are)
Also, no matter how long any of us have been model railroaders, most all of us have built similar layouts, owned a glowing red Tyco caboose, and used horn/hook couplers attached to trucks with bad plastic wheels in them. Also, speaking for myself at least, I'm not all that much of a stickler for accuracy, or expert.
I know Dave from MD. meant no harm whatever when he called some of us "Serious Model Railroaders", but that term is something of an oxymoron. The only reason to be in model railroading, or any hobby, is to have fun. If you're having fun; 1) That's all that matters. and 2) You can't be all that serious! 
The only "Serious Model Railroaders I've ever encountered were some yahoos who visited my old N-scale club years ago. They came as part of an NMRA tour. They were old codgers, dressed up in their silly little "railroad engineer" costumes, and trashing every scale, era, modeling philosophy, etc. that was the least bit different from their own choice of HO-scale , steam, local pedler freight, switching. That was the only way to go for "Serious Model Railroaders" to hear these bozos tell it. I now am an old codger myself, but may I never become like those narrow minded morons. No, I'm just a guy who likes trains a lot, and isn't particularly serious. 😁

Regards;
Traction Fan


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Stumpy,

Thank you for the reply and all the links, they have and will come in handy. Much appreciated


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CTValleyRR,

Yes we knew about the 33" wheels, you had mentioned that before if memory is correct and we made sure of that when looking at them all. 

We remember you making suggestions previously on the holes, when we saw these plugs we just thought it might be another option for our skill set. Not that we can't figure it out, but hate to ruin a couple of cars learning. Not only filling them but then making sure to drill perfect.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Traction Fan,

We must have missed the part about "talgo" trucks. That seems like a very good option for us. we'll look into them. We did order 4 sets of wheelsets only to try on one car before we went the whole truck replacement route. we'll see how that goes when we get them. Thank you for the explanation of different trucks and era's. We were looking for Kadee trucks with metal wheels but did not see them on site, but there was a LOT of options for truck too so we may have missed them. 

Thank you for the explanation on removing trucks. It will help us not to destroy anything lol




traction fan said:


> You are trying to build a simple, reasonably rugged, layout to share with your little boy and your wife. That's great!


That's it right there in a nutshell. 

Although as stated if parts do get replaced, why not be accurate or period correct of it's not a big problem. 

We know what you mean about some taking things to different levels. Nothing wrong with that if it's your passion. But yeah when you get to judging people over it....well that can open a can a worms. We are certainly guilty of that in our chosen profession. But that is a whole other story not related to model trains. But good thing we didn't order those hats yet lol.

Now, to both you and CTValleyRR and sprung trucks....Thanks for killing the dreams of a 53 year old man who was as excited as a kid on christmas morning we he saw those trucks. lol. Performance issue aside, The thought of those springs popping out...we can easily see happening now you two have mentioned it...and that is a big turnoff for us. We are still looking for that darn 10mm socket. lol. The thought of looking for those tiny springs sends shivers down our spine...and we know our shop gremlin was loving that idea and we still can't find that little demon. No, that is not a reference to our son....we have a legit shop gremlin who will takes things you just laid down and runs off with it, only for it to appear the next day right near where you left it.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

KGB Railways said:


> ....we have a legit shop gremlin who will takes things you just laid down and runs off with it, only for it to appear the next day right near where you left it.


I'll trade you shop gremlins. Mine only brings things back after I've bought a replacement.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

KGB Railways said:


> and we know our shop gremlin was loving that idea and we still can't find that little demon. No, that is not a reference to our son....we have a legit shop gremlin who will takes things you just laid down and runs off with it, only for it to appear the next day right near where you left it.


You've been infested by the Borrowers. Don't feel bad, they live in my house, too.








The Borrowers - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Stumpy said:


> I'll trade you shop gremlins. Mine only brings things back after I've bought a replacement.


I've got that one too. Sometimes, just for fun... He takes the replacement too. Then after I have the third he returns one of the others!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

I hope he does not take exception, but, the implied disclaimers not withstanding, Traction Fan is what I think of as a Serious Model Railroader! 
He is quite serious about helping other mrr's, about correct terminology, about trackwork, wheels, couplers and reliable running, etc., etc. 
And he seems to enjoy every minute!! And I appreciate his efforts! So, that term is not necessarily about Rivet Counting!!! 😂 😂 😂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Traction Fan,
> 
> We must have missed the part about "talgo" trucks. That seems like a very good option for us. we'll look into them. We did order 4 sets of wheelsets only to try on one car before we went the whole truck replacement route. we'll see how that goes when we get them. Thank you for the explanation of different trucks and era's. We were looking for Kadee trucks with metal wheels but did not see them on site, but there was a LOT of options for truck too so we may have missed them.
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

The talgo trucks, with couplers attached, are an easy way to convert to Kadee couplers, since the Kadee couplers come already attached to these Kadee trucks. Note: you can buy Kadee trucks with, or without, couplers attached to them. However, there are other important decisions for you to make, before spending a good deal of your money on a bunch of Kadee trucks.

1) Do you want to convert all, or most, of your cars and locomotives to Kadee couplers now, or in the near future?
If not, and you intend to keep using horn-hook couplers for the immediate future, then there's not much point in buying & changing trucks now. Instead, you could just continue replacing any problem wheelsets to "get things rolling." (😊sorry, I love awful puns!) 

2) If you decide you do want to replace some trucks, there are other factors that may affect what kind of trucks you might choose to buy. Most important, in my opinion, would be to get metal wheels in whatever brand of trucks you buy. So if Kadee does not offer trucks with metal wheels, and Walthers does, then I would buy the Walthers trucks. Walthers may, or may not, offer talgo trucks with couplers. They almost certainly don't offer talgo trucks with Kadee couplers, but they may have Protomax, or some other decent coupler-equipped trucks available. Being an N-scaler, I don't know. One of our HO members can probably clear that up. I would also ask them to confirm or deny the Kadee all-metal truck rumor.

3) Assuming your son, your wife, or you yourself, maintain a long-term interest in model railroading, (A safe bet!) you might want to read the attached file "A lot about couplers." 
"Talgo"trucks, with couplers mounted, have some advantages, primarily when you have tight (18"r) curves as I think you do.
However, as several people have advised, body-mounted couplers also have their own advantages. They would be better when pushing cars into a siding, for example, especially if you choose to use Atlas Snap Switch turnouts.
As a likely near future example, related to your present layout, if you add a single crossover, made with two Atlas Snap Switches, to get between your two loops, at some point you will need to back the train through the reverse curve contained in those Atlas turnouts. Doing that with (talgo) truck-mounted couplers is basically, just asking for a derailment.
Note: Performing the same maneuver with body-mounted couplers will be more reliable. It will be even more so if you use Peco turnouts, or modify the Atlas ones.
So, a lot of things are interrelated here, and you may want to think a little about the future,
or not, as you choose. Maybe you just want to try a few trucks as a learning exercise.
One other thing about this body-mount vs truck-mounted coupler issue is that it is something of an all or none decision. The worst case is to have a mix of some body-mounted, and some truck-mounted couplers. This is covered in the file.

You have mentioned your shop, and that you and your wife are professionals at making/selling some product. Just curious, can you share what it is that you both do? 

Yes, hunting for small parts is part of this hobby! If you think dealing with HO-sale truck springs would be daunting, wait till you encounter Kadee coupler springs, or In my case, assembling Z-scale couplers, or scratch-building N-scale catenary, and turnouts. Yup, "Been there, done all that" 
Of course, it's better not to lose those &^%$# tiny parts in the first place. The second file has some suggestions.

Keep Having Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Traction Fan,

As usual some great information we will be referencing in future. 

The plan right now is to just set up a couple of cars to help transition from one style to other style of couplers. IE ROCO car with Kadee couplers will have a car in front of it with Kadee on one end and the other end will be what we mostly have (can't remember what you call them at this time.) The ROCO car will have a car behind it with Kadee in front and the other style in back. Hope that makes sense. Someone suggested this...maybe even you, and it sounded like a good idea for the time being. 

We sent you a PM for other questions you asked.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

> ...or scratch-building N-scale catenary, and turnouts...


Building or installing HO scale catenary is delicate enough, I can't imagine doing that in N or Z scale. Even TT.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

cid said:


> I hope he does not take exception, but, the implied disclaimers not withstanding, Traction Fan is what I think of as a Serious Model Railroader!
> He is quite serious about helping other mrr's, about correct terminology, about trackwork, wheels, couplers and reliable running, etc., etc.
> And he seems to enjoy every minute!! And I appreciate his efforts! So, that term is not necessarily about Rivet Counting!!! 😂 😂 😂



Thank You cid, KGB, & MichaelE

I was somewhat kidding, but the term "Serious Model Railroader" has been used in vain. One total nut job wrote in to Model Railroader Magazine years ago, that he no longer felt their publication deserved to be displayed on his coffee table. His reason? The magazine had "wasted" space by printing articles about N-scale and Z-scale layouts that he felt should have been used for more (only) HO-scale coverage! That's the kind of "serious" (as in serious mental issues) model railroader" I was poking fun at.

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> Building or installing HO scale catenary is delicate enough, I can't imagine doing that in N or Z scale. Even TT.


MichaelE;

Actually, Making N-scale catenary isn't all that hard. I use a jig consisting of a plank with Atlas track nails driven part way into a diagram of the contact wire and its supporting wire. I use 0.013" Dia. phosphor/bronze "artistic" wire, from Amazon. (see photo) I stretch this wire around the nails, and solder it together. One panel is about 4' long, which matches the length of one of my layout sections.
Milwaukee Road's support poles were simple wooden telephone style with a pretty basic metal arm attached. Nothing as elaborate as your European poles.
I also settle for "good enough" in over-scale size & simplified design of even the Milwaukee Road's simple catenary. Your German & Swiss railroads would be appalled at the Milwaukee's wire. The MILW. used pantographs with extra long reach to compensate for lots of differences in contact wire height. Verbotten in Germany. Still, in it's day, it was the longest mainline electrification in the world.
I have never made Z-scale catenary. The Z-scale reference was to assembling Micro-Trains couplers. The Z-scale couplers are actually closer to N-scale size than the ones sold as N-scale. I don't use the Z-scale ones on everything, (I'm not that serious ) But they do fit better in restricted spaces, like the pilot of a steam locomotive for example.

regards;

Traction Fan


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Dad here....

I now remember why I got away from this stuff in the 70’s. Way to much hassle for very little reward. It is sad when you spend 8 hrs to get something to work reliable for your boy....then when it’s time to play it all goes to hell. Nothing changed from the time it was working fine and shut off....till an hour later and you turn it on and nothing but problems for two hours.

I’ve found that despite some good advice on here brand means very little to how things work and brands comes down to cosmetics.

the most reliable and usable is the model power. Works fine for most part but two cars will do 100 laps fine then all of a sudden one can’t stay coupled and the other can’t stay on track.

tyco....yes wheel sets are rough, but transformer will work sometimes and sometimes not. Kinda funny to have it turned off and all of a sudden runs by itself. The track itself seems to be the best though.

Bachmann.....what a joke....works one minute than next out of nowhere just stops. Locomotive works fine on model power and tyco track though. Just Bachmann track is garbage

AHM....stupid car can’t stay on track to save its life

Roundhouse....can’t stay hooked up on one end to save its life

ROCO....we know the story with the silver car and its Kadee couplers....but the other car and its “standard” couplers....lmao can’t stay hooked up on one end to save its life.

arthrearn or however you spell it, cant stay hooked up on one end to save its life.

Got some life like stuff and still seeing if that’s worth a crap....not to confident....not do I feel like messing with


we are pretty much at the stage that the amount of work needed to keep these things working on a consistent basis is nowhere near the small reward you get.

I can build a high performance two stroke engine in a couple of hours and get a years worth of fun out if it in the nastiest conditions known to man. This crap can’t run straight for 10 minutes in a perfectly controlled environment.

Yes I am ranting. Very frustrated and if this stuff was not my sons.....there would be a terrible drone attack dropping bombs on it like a WW2 battle field


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I hate to say it, but that is the difference between buying second hand, questionable and cheap quality items and spending more for quality locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories.

With the former, the frustration that problems cause make many leave the hobby before they even get a circle of track to run reliably.

While the latter, with serious time and more money spent on installing track correctly and buying reputable equipment can reap hours of fun and enjoyment.

You don't have to spend a fortune to enter the hobby with reliable equipment and sound track. But you do have to spend _some_ money to get that quality and reliability. All you get for spending the least amount you possibly can results in your last post.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

You completely missed the point of my post.....the least expensive is the most reliable. It’s the more expensive stuff that is the problem.
Had we just left well enough alone and stuck to model power we’d have almost no issues.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Michael beat me to it. Been there, done that. 

However one facet of this hobby that I enjoy is buying older rolling stock (mostly kits from Roundhouse, Athearn, Accurail, etc.) that you can't find new and "upgrading" it. That means new Kadee knuckle couplers & wheelsets or trucks, bringing the car up to the correct weight, correcting coupler height and so on. Even used RTR stuff is usually far from RTR and needs some or all of the upgrades. When it's all said and done I have as much in a car as if I'd bought NIB. 

And even if you do spring for a "better" car - from a rivet-counter perspective - if you buy it on fleabay... caveat emptor.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

KGB Railways said:


> Had we just left well enough alone and stuck to model power we’d have almost no issues.


Well it certainly improves the odds that models would play nice together if from the same manufacturer.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The Model Power doesn't sound as though it was any better than the rest. _Any_ derailments or uncoupling while in motion is entirely unacceptable.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Stumpy,

unless it’s something “special” we always but NIB stuff

I have no problem upgrading....if it works.

We have a model power track that the TYCO, and Bachman cars work fine on

we have a TYCO track that TYCO and model power work fine on

We have a Bachman track that model power works fine on but the Bachmann stuff doesn’t.

notice the trend....regardless or track Model Power and TYCO work fine on all of them.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE,

1 out of 9 model power cars has issues....the tanker car....and that is due to the truck hanging up on frame. The rest are fine.

TYCO has 1 out of 10 that un couples.

Lionel zero issues

The rest forget about it no consistency


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

My appologies. I miss-read your previous post.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

MichaelE,

no worries it happens.

I should point out that most of the cars that uncouple....Athearn, Roundhouse, ROCO, usually only do it when train stops then starts up again


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

So a little more description on track and manufacture.

Outer track is almost all Model Power ( country of manufacture ? ) with exception of two crossings, 1 is TYCO ( country of manufacture ? ) and the other is Bachmann. ( country of manufacture ? ) No issues with TYCO crossing. With Bachmann crossing, Bachmann and Life Like locomotives and Life Like lighted caboose loose power on It. Not so with Model Power Locomotive it works fine. Also has a TYCO power track as the model power connections were not that great. This track works fine.

Inner track is mostly TYCO steel track that is made in Austria with exception of 3 brass sections, also TYCO made in Austria, used simply because I ran out of steel. Plus 2 22” brass curves (needed for layout design) that are AHM made in Italy. And 2 steel straights “Feller Garnet” made in Italy. Used because ran out of TYCO. There are also two TYCO made in Hong Kong straights that came with operations cars. this track works fine.

I do have more TYCO steel and Brass track but it’s made in Hong Kong and I tried to keep as much of that out as possible.

Bachmann track, tried setting up a second table as we also have a Bachmann Train set. This was made in Hong Kong and is a major problem. The cars that cane with this set hate this track and derail. The Locomotive will run on it but also will stop dead in its tracks for no apparent reason. However, put the same locomotive on the TYCO and Model Power track it works fine, put the freight cars on TYCO they have issues but not as bad as when on their own Bachmann brand. Put the freight cars on Model Power track no issues at all.

also have more AHM made in Italy brass track but currently not being used

Also have some Yugoslavia brass track but no idea of brand. Currently not being used 

plus I have some of the Feller Garnet track not being used.

now, I’m sure I will get some comments on mixing track brands and steel vs brass. This was done out of necessity and these lines have no issues.

again it’s the Bachmann track that is the big problem as far as track goes and no other brand was mixed in.

All the Bachmann track, Yugoslavia Track, AHM track, and Feller Garnet track were donated by “Grandpa” along with Bachmann cars (except one we bought) and a bunch of Life Like cars and locomotives. The complete life like cars work fine. Many need new couplers and the locomotives need some serious help....lol. This was all his stuff when he was younger. It has been stored away. Everything was cleaned before use.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

KGB, sorry to here your frustrations. I hadn't gotten as far as you yet (his birthday is on July and I'm trying to keep it secret... Which means working on it after he goes to bed and keeping it all hidden). Hopefully I don't hot the same snags, but it really seemed like you were doing it right, so I'm a little nervous. 

That said, I have all (or mostly) Atlas track and have not had any track induced errors show up yet. Other than a test section were I joined code 83 and code 100 sections. But even that was fixed with some solder and a mini file. So far I've had good luck with a few pancake motor Tyco engines and Tyco rolling stock. All with plastic wheels and basic couplers. 

I did end up spending considerable time cleaning the rails on my little test layout and that made a world of difference. How you get it sorted

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Hahaha what, did u take the keyboard away from Dad? 🤣 😂


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think I'd replace all the couplers with kadee. Replace the wheels with new metal. And buy a new engine with DCC dual mode DC.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

LOL Yeah!!!


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

$200 and you got a new engine that'll eat those old ones for breakfast. another $50? and you got new couplers and wheels to pull behind it. done and done.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Didn't one of the retail sites have DCC sound locomotives for $99 close-out? Who was that?

I nearly bought one myself just because they were so cheap.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

train world. also claimed those particular items were DCC Esu -- didn't say the kind/version. There's still a lot of specials in HO there. I'd check modeltrainstuff at least as well. But sure for $100 I bet you can find DCC sound, dual mode, some LEDs... it'd be pretty nice.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

I drifted away from the is conversation for a while, and may have missed something, but did you end up getting a NMRA standards gauge and a truck tuner? 

I think what you're finding is that building a layout on used gear is entirely possible, it just requires a bit of work along the way. The tools I mention above -plus a KD coupler height gauge- are just about essential to getting reliable operation out of used and vintage cars.

I view with some skepticism the idea that you need new trucks for these cars. A truck tuning (and maybe wheels) should be more than adequate. New metal trucks will cost you more than the cars you're buying.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Also, are you looking at DCC now? Just saw the recent locomotive recommendations and was wondering.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Unfortunately, I have to agree with MichaelE. 95% of your frustration comes from buying cheap, second hand stuff, a lot of which probably ended up on eBay precisely because it WAS junk.

You have been given good advice about what to buy -- but you missed the caveat, which is that for the most part, we're talking about stuff that is new within the last decade. Part of your frustration stems from the fact that not only are you remembering how frustrating it was in the '70's, but that's largely because you insist on buying stuff from the 70's. Age isn't going to make it work any better than it did before.

There are several keys to avoiding frustration in this hobby:
1) Buy quality equipment to start with. Maintain it properly. Honestly, if the best equipment on your layout is from Model Power, then you have acquired a lot of junk.
2) Buy good quality track and turnouts, and lay it flawlessly. And that does, in fact, mean flawlessly. Keep it scrupulously clean. 
3) Upgrade any and all substandard parts: couplers, trucks, wheelsets, motors, gearing, etc.

Many of the behaviors you report in your rant can be attributed to poor track work and electrical connections. Many others can be explained by garbage trucks, wheels and couplers.

Not counting the 70's, when I was a teenager, I have been in this hobby for 22 years. I too learned some hard lessons about using crappy track and equipment. I don't have any of that stuff any more. Some of it I sold and donated, but most of it is just in the landfill. My son started into the hobby 13 years ago, at the age of 4-1/2. Because I learned my lessons, we made his layout with top quality track and turnouts, and bought him good equipment. And we've rarely had a moment of downtime.

You don't need to spend an arm and a leg in this hobby, but you can't expect to do it on the cheap, either. I guess I contributed to the problem by trying to help you make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No longer. Take your own advice and run that drone attack, or do a Hiroshima simulation. Then do your homework, get some quality stuff, and make a layout that you and your son can enjoy.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Vette-Kid

thanks you,

I wish I could have done it your way, unfortunately his trains are mostly gifts so he gets them and wants to see them run. I just feel bad for the little guy because I’ll tell him I have to set it up and test it out. Then I’ll do that and things seem fine. Then hours later or next day when he’s ready for the reveal all he’ll breaks loose and I’m like WTF I had you working and now this. Thankfully he’ll just move on to race track or his power wheels, but I hate letting him down.

His initial set, the Model Power , did have some track issues at first, but ever since trading out the track joiners with TYCO it’s had zero issues.
Speaking of TYCO, it’s a combination of new and used and outside of some rough wheel sets, the preform fine, the TYCO stuff has been for the most part fine. Yes one New car has a coupling issue but I can deal with 1 out of 10. The transformer was working great at first but somehow our shop gremlin got inside it and now it will suddenly not work or even work when in the off position....lol....pretty sure a disassemble and clean will help that out. Or at least I’ll chase the gremlin out of it.

The point ia we asked earlier for brand grading and the Model Power snd Tyco were rated as worst or at the bottom. The thing is though they are the least problematic. It’s the “higher quality” stuff that has the issues.
Maybe the Model Power and Tyco stuff is more tolerant and the other stuff is too sensitive...idk


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

CID,

actually the opposite is true, which means the filter is off.


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

Severn 

right now it’s the “better” equipped car couplers that are giving me the problems.

I do like the idea of metal wheel sets and have some on order.

Not sure how a DCC set up or other locomotive will stop the higher end cars from uncoupling or derailing but I’m all ears!


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## KGB Railways (May 14, 2020)

I have to step away for now but I’ll be back to continue reply’s.

thank you all for your input


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Vette-Kid
> 
> thanks you,
> 
> ...


 Honestly, I would venture a guess that your last sentence is dead on: at least part of the reason your cheapest stuff performs the best is that the sloppy equipment plays well with bad track. Things with higher tolerances has more trouble with the track.

You need to be careful with that "new in the box" stuff. True, it may never have been taken out of the box, but that doesn't mean its newly manufactured. I once purchased a Proto 2K loco that I assumed was fairly new, and it turned out to be one of the first ones made by LifeLike, well before Walthers acquired them (and even that was a while ago). The drive gears were cracked, and the lubricants were rock hard, but it was, in fact, new in the box, with the manufacturer's seal intact kn both ends...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Severn
> 
> right now it’s the “better” equipped car couplers that are giving me the problems.
> 
> ...


DCC will not solve any performance issues, and would not help uncoupling or derailments in any case. Unfortunately, few manufacturers send their stuff from the factory with high quality couplers, so you often need to swap them out. A train that starts jerkily will often cause an uncoupling or a derailment. Likewise, you ALWAYS need to check coupler height, wheel gauge, truck motion, and wheel alignment on every car.

Also, it is often true that the car that causes the derailment isn't actually the one that derails. You need to spend the time to figure out WHY they derail, and whether it's the car or the track causing it.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

KGB Railways said:


> Dad here....
> 
> I now remember why I got away from this stuff in the 70’s. Way to much hassle for very little reward. It is sad when you spend 8 hrs to get something to work reliable for your boy....then when it’s time to play it all goes to hell. Nothing changed from the time it was working fine and shut off....till an hour later and you turn it on and nothing but problems for two hours.
> 
> ...


KGB Railways;

First, know that I, and other people here, have had many of the same problems you describe; at one time or another in our model railroading history. It also seems,( per Murphy's law of model railroading) that the presence of visitors, or saying "Hey honey, look how this works", or in your case, "OK son, let's run some trains" will act as a siren call to all the bugs, gremlins and mean-spirited poltergeists, to come out of hiding and see how many things they can do to mess up your railroad! It's uncanny! In the eleven years that I was a member of a model railroad club, I can't remember a single "open house day" when all the trains performed perfectly. So, You are not alone.

Second, I only know of one solution to those problems, work.
As with your engine builds, the right tools help a lot. Do you have a multimeter, and an NMRA gauge? If either of these essential tools isn't in your possession, You should get them.
Model trains can only stay coupled when all the couplers are the same height. That means exactly the same height. It helps if they are all the same type, and brand, though using a "conversion car" with a Kadee coupler at one end, and an X-2F "horn hook" coupler at the other end, is OK, for now.

Trains will derail if the track, the wheels, or both, don't meet the standards incorporated in the NMRA gauge. This is not to follow NMRA standards for their own sake. Rather, this is simply an easy, & accurate, way to insure that every wheelset on the railroad has it's wheels exactly the same distance apart. All railroads, real, or model, depend on the wheels being in gauge to operate well.
The same gauge also needs to be able to slide smoothly through every inch of track on your railroad. The track's rails can't be too close to each other, or too far apart, and the tolerance is a fraction of an inch.
Be glad that, at least for now, you don't have any turnouts to deal with. They are the most complicated, and therefore "error rich", pieces of track on any railroad.
If you get things running well, (Hang in there, you will.) and if your son stays interested, and if you decide that you want more than a circling train, then you can deal with turnouts, later, using some of the other functions of your NMRA gauge. 

The multimeter won't help keep the trains on the track, or keep the cars coupled, but it's a great help in finding out "Why the train won't go." You won't need an elaborate or expensive meter. The model in the photo below is quite adequate for model railroad use, and only costs $5. It's available from www.harborfreighttools.com The NMRA gauge costs $12, and is available through www.modeltrainstuff.com www.trainworld.com or other online dealers.

One "keep em coupled" trick I once used on a display layout where two trains simply circled constantly, and nothing needed to be uncoupled, was to slide a piece of shrink tube around each pair of mating couplers as the train was put together. I didn't shrink the tubing, I just picked the smallest size that would fit around the couplers. This kept the two mated couplers lined up with each other so well that they stayed together all day. It's "cheating" in a way, but If it works, great. Later, changing to Kadee couplers and making sure they are exactly the same height, will accomplish the same "keep em coupled" thing, but also allow you to uncouple cars when you want to park them on a siding. For now, if it works, why not? 

Trains derail much more easily, and therefore more often, if they are not the proper weight. It's somewhat unusual that a car, even if it's brand new, is actually even close to the NMRA's recommended weight. Most cars, especially older cheap cars, are very, very, much lighter than they should be. I have a little paper with the NMRA's recommended weights on it. However, I've found that, at least with my N-scale cars, it's hard to fit enough weight in the car to match their recommendations. I don't sweat that at all, I just want the cars to be heavy enough to track reliably. 

While I somewhat agree with MichaelE's comment about quality cars and locomotives, in general, I also see your point about some less-than stellar cars working better than others, and I don't think the answer to all your difficulties is to run out and spend a fortune on better quality equipment. Instead, at least for now, I like Stumpy's idea of upgrading whatever cars you do have, and even those, a few at a time.

Short term, get an NMRA gauge, and use it to check, one loco at a time, and one car at a time, for wheels set properly. If you find some that don't fit the "wheels" notches in the gauge, what to do next will depend on the type of wheelset you have. I think you may find that some, or even most, of the wheelsets on your cars are plastic wheels, on plastic axles. They may be the type where the entire wheelset, wheels and axle, are one cast piece, and therefore can't be adjusted. (This is one example of the benefit of better quality cars. Usually their wheels are adjustable.)
Any wheelsets you find that don't fit the gauge, and are made as an unadjustable single casting, should be thrown away. Replace them with aftermarket, metal, wheelsets which can be adjusted by twisting the two wheels in opposite directions , while pulling, or pushing, them to the proper width. New wheelsets from Fox Valley Models, Intermountain, or Kadee, are all but certain to be in proper gauge from the factory, and thus won't need adjustment, but check them anyway.

One thing model railroading needs lots, and lots, of is patience. You also need to enjoy building, and working on, your railroad as much as running it. Think how many people would have not the slightest interest in building one of those two-stroke engines you can assemble relatively easily and quickly. How many could do it at all? Now think about the very first engine you put together. How did that go? I think it took time, and repetition, and tons of patience, to get to your present level of expertise. So does model railroading. I spent most of today assembling little tiny pieces of N-scale stairway handrails. Now that takes patience! At several points, I also had to go do something else to keep sane. If the hobby's not fun, stop. Go do something else and, only if you want to, come back later, and take up where you left off.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

I have been adding weight and checking couplers on our cars. I bought a large pack of stick on wheel weights that work great for this and they make a higher difference. Of course the added weight limits the old pancake engines I'm running, but it still managed ten. The only ones to derail were unweighted. These are unweighted because I haven't figured out where to hide the weights on tank cars and flat cars.

Try adding weight as many suggested, if you haven't. The when weights you can get on small packs for around $10 or in large boxes of around 30-40oz in 1/4 weights for around $50 at AutoZone or similar. 

I built a 383 roller a few years back for a78 Vette I was doing. Took me FOREVER. I had never done a scratch build before so I took time to check, recheck and triple check things and then still more time to redo things a still got wrong. In the end, I wasted some time and money, but I managed to wring out a good amount of power (425ish). That car was a blast! (Sad I sold it). Stick with it, well figure it out eventually. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

You keep being told you need this tool and that gauge and NMRA standards. I have never had any of those in all my years and I've been doing fine. I started out with brass sectional track and used it for years. It was a mix of brands. A number of years ago I was able to purchase a large lot of nickel silver sectional track cheap and have been using that ever since.

If you recall my initial post to you I laid out my experience over the years hoping to give you the simple view of this hobby. Your objective is to have a train your young son can play with. There are some key elements to to get that, but tools, gauages, and NMRA standards are not it.

As for the coupling issues, with the horn hook type, they are notorious for coupling issues, especially with starts and stops. With DC operation when you shut off the transformer, the locomotive stops immediately. The cars keep rolling forward and push against each other which causes the horn hook couplers to "open up". Then when you start up again, the cars uncouple. Look at the attached picture. One of the other problems is that the little "spring" (that's the thin piece pertruding on the one example and the thin piece curling around the screw hole on the other) can break off. This then means the coupler will not spring back to the neutral position. When you go around a curve or stop, the coupler pulls to one side or gets pushed to one side and allows the cars to uncouple. The way to check this is push each coupler to one side and see if it springs back. If it stays, that little "spring" piece is broken off. The coupler needs to be replaced or the frustration will continue.











You also mention about the power pack. Those small train set power packs are notoriously troublesome. You can find relatively inexpensive new power packs. I would be leary of buying any used power packs. I learned my lesson after buying some off ebay. Much of what is there are the small train set power packs or "vintage" metal cased power packs (very good in their day but now VERY old - it's what I had when I was young in the 60s and 70s).

It doesn't surprise me that the AHM car has trouble staying on the track. As I recall, they were very lightweight. Adding weight definitely helps. Tank cars and flat cars do require some creativeness to add weight to. The Tyco cars were heavy and stayed on the track better. Back in the day, Tyco was the best of the less expensive equipment. 

I hope you can get things working simply without breaking the bank. It is what will get him interested and keep him interested.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

DavefromMD said:


> You keep being told you need this tool and that gauge and NMRA standards.
> 
> Your objective is to have a train your young son can play with. There are some key elements to to get that, but tools, gauages, and NMRA standards are not it.


I disagree. 

It's not like somebody told him he needed to buy every tool Snap-On offers. It has been advised that he acquire $20-$30 worth of tools that can make diagnosing and fixing problems a _lot_ easier.

If someone asks for advice on driving nails I'm going to advise that they use a hammer. If they want to forego a hammer purchase and give it a go with a section of 2x4, don't tell me my advice was bad.


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

DavefromMD said:


> You keep being told you need this tool and that gauge and NMRA standards. I have never had any of those in all my years and I've been doing fine. I started out with brass sectional track and used it for years. It was a mix of brands. A number of years ago I was able to purchase a large lot of nickel silver sectional track cheap and have been using that ever since.
> 
> If you recall my initial post to you I laid out my experience over the years hoping to give you the simple view of this hobby. Your objective is to have a train your young son can play with. There are some key elements to to get that, but tools, gauages, and NMRA standards are not it.
> 
> ...


What power pack would you recommend? Mine are ok for now, but they are temperamental at times. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

MRC makes a good power pack. I believe they go for about $40.






DCC Power Supplies | Model Train Stuff


Deliver the power that your model railroad needs with our range of DCC power supplies including wiring components and standard DC power packs.




www.modeltrainstuff.com


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

> If someone asks for advice on driving nails I'm going to advise that they use a hammer. If they want to forego a hammer purchase and give it a go with a section of 2x4, don't tell me my advice was bad.


Chill out Stumpy. I NEVER said the advice was bad. I'm just letting him know that it CAN be done simply.

One thing I've come to find on here is that the many highly experienced folks on here may not have ever just wanted to run trains with or for their kids without getting into a lot of expense or complications. I was trying to give that perspective of one who has done it that way for a long time.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

DavefromMD said:


> You keep being told you need this tool and that gauge and NMRA standards. I have never had any of those in all my years and I've been doing fine. I started out with brass sectional track and used it for years. It was a mix of brands. A number of years ago I was able to purchase a large lot of nickel silver sectional track cheap and have been using that ever since.
> 
> If you recall my initial post to you I laid out my experience over the years hoping to give you the simple view of this hobby. Your objective is to have a train your young son can play with. There are some key elements to to get that, but tools, gauages, and NMRA standards are not it.
> 
> ...



DavefromMD;

You have given a lot of good advice in your "keep it simple" responses. Yes, certainly there are differences in the way modelers with lots of experience and those with very little, do things.
I have to disagree with you about the need for an NMRA gauge though. It's not some exoitic specialty tool that only does one thing. Rather, I ,and many others, regard it as a simple, practical, and very necessary, tool on any model railroad. It's also a very good way to start tracking down the causes of some of the very problems that KGB Railways is experiencing now.
Adding weight is good, but it won't fix, or even find, out-of gauge track, or wheels. A too-light car, with out-of-gauge wheels under it, may derail a little more often than the same car will with added weight, but light, or heavy, it will derail, and keep right on derailing, until the real cause, the wheels, is found and fixed.
In some cases, adding weight may even tend to "mask" the real, underlying, problem. 
If the OP adds weight to a car, and that reduces the number/frequency of derailments, he may think, "Wow weight was the ("only") problem all along. So, if I simply add even more weight then everything will work perfectly!"
No it won't. Not if the wheels are out of adjustment, or the track is out-of gauge. All the added weight in the world won't find those problems, an NMRA gauge will.
The thing only costs $12, and if used properly, should last for many years.

You say you have not felt the need for one, and your trains run just fine. Good. I'm happy for you. But that does not mean that KGB Railways is in the same happy boat that you are. From his post, it should be obvious that he's not.
As for NMRA standards, apart from those incorporated in the gauge, I ignore them. I'm not an NMRA member, never have been, and have nothing to gain personally whether KGB buys, and uses, a gauge, or not. I simply happen to think he will be able to find some of his derailment problems with one.

Thank you for the information on horn hook couplers. I used them many years back, when I had an HO-scale railroad. I didn't know about the problems you mentioned. Maybe I experienced some, and have forgotten about them, that was over 50 years ago. I did know, in general terms, about the weaknesses of train set power packs. However, your simple explanation was excellent, thanks for that too.

Traction Fan


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