# 259E Revival



## T-Man

The close look.


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## Stillakid

A little rough, but in your hands it'll look like it's Brand New in no time!!!
I bet you've already started


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## T-Man

The motor and e unit work. Had trouble pulling the pickup out.
I can't figure out the Marx motor. I thought I did but I found a picture of one. What's up?


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## Stillakid

*This motor*

This is a different motor. Are we talking Marx or your 259?
All the motor in the pic needs is a new wheel, the tarnished one slips right off. No wheel puller
View attachment 3378


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## T-Man

Is that the one you got with your gantry crane? We are talking about the Marx motor.

I started working on the shell. A lot of pieces. I will assemble before I paint. Not sure how much but some.


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## tjcruiser

Huh???

Do you guys know the famous Abbott and Costello baseball routine? Where everyone is surely confused ... "Who is on First. What is on Second. I Don't Know is on Third ... I throw the ball to first base, whoever it is grabs the ball, so the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to what. What throws it to I don't know. I don't know throws it back to tomorrow--a triple play."

Well ... I feel like one of those confused guys. 

T-Man ... you've got a new/old 259 ... a LIONEL 259. Why are you and Jim talking about a Marx motor? And those are two different motors in the pics above, right?

Can one of you guys PLEASE set Abbott and Costello and ME straight on who/what/I-don't-know is actually going on in this thread ... 

TJ


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## T-Man

Just common horse trading.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> Just common horse trading.


Ha ha ... with two different old horses, I guess!  (Uhhh ... the TRAINS ... not you guys, of course!)

TJ


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## T-Man

Made progress on paint removal today.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

259 shell parts don't look too bad at all ... no major dents / twists. And most tabs still intact? Things should clean up / prime / paint quite nicely.

Take a close look at that frame ... the mid section is cut back left and right quite aggressively, to the point where there's a weak spot at about 2/3 length that I think often allows the frame's aft end to bend down, often giving the cab on these 259's a very "drooped down" look. It was the case with mine, for sure. I gently straightened the frame as much as possible, and took care with the cab re-install to give it better alignment with the boiler, and a more pleasing look, in my opinion.

Do you have the weight that goes inside the steam chest? And you may recall that some (but not all) 259's had a 2nd weight in the cab ... I'm guessing not your older 259, though.

Keep us posted!

TJ


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## T-Man

I have no weights or the front or rear trailing wheels.
I will check the frame with a straight edge.

Yep straight.

6/24 most of the paint is gone. Wire brushing done to get the worst. Now I am into the rubbing compound. For now I am just taking my time.


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## T-Man

Weights for the 259. 
Can anyone show some pictures of them and how they fit in? 
I may make my own. 
This peoject has slowed down, I am still in the paint removal stage. More polishing is needed for paint removal.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Glad to see you're gearing up for your 259E revival. As far as weights for the 259 go ...

My understanding (via earlier discussions with B&M) is that EARLY 259's had a weight in the steamchest (ONLY), and that later 259's (like mine) had two weights: one in the steamchest, and an "add on" weight inset into the floor of the cab.

Check out my 259E thread ... you'll see several photos that show the weights:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3748

The weight that is WEDGED shape is the one that gets mounted on the inside floor of the cab. The half-round "bump up" faces up, and the screw that holds the weight in place is the very same screw that holds the rear motor flange to the loco frame.

The steamchest weight slips inside the steamchest from the back (open) face. It was originally held in place by a rivet (axis running fore-and-aft), but I drilled this out for the repaint, and replaced it with a stainless screw and locknut.

The forward weight is nearly symmetrical top-to-bottom, but one edge has a bit of a recess to it. I forget if this recess faces up or down, but I'll try to remember to look on my loco to see.

A pic of the weights is below, but you might see more from other pics on my thread.

Do you still need front and/or rear trucks for your 259? I see them occasionally on ebay.

Cheers,

TJ










More clarification ...

The forward weight has two parallel protrusions (T's, really) that face aft. Here you're looking at the aft (rear) face of the weight. As I said, I forget if that subtle recess along the edge faces up or down.










Here's a better shot of the rear weight showing its wedge shape:


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## T-Man

Now, I am just thinking ahead. I will have assemble it more before tackling weights. I have to get into wire brushing. I doubt I can make them look like Mr. Clean did his thing. Thanks for the pictures.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> I doubt I can make them look like Mr. Clean did his thing. Thanks for the pictures.


:laugh: Anytime, T-Man ... it's the least I can do to reciprocate for all of the great tips you've passed along to me and others!

Let me know if you need more detailed dimensions or photos of the weights at any point.

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

*Tender is here*

No stamp id.







..


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> No stamp id.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..



It might be on the inside?


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I LOVE it! Nice trim details ... handrails, journal boxes, "L" insignia. A perfect mate for your 259E. Is there a nameplate in the small, inset field on the sides of the tender?

Your round "L" insignia looks to be in great shape. As a side note, I had to replace the pair on my 259E loco. Repros are available, but they are stick-on, rather than tabbed on. I wasn't too pleased about that.

(I just stripped my 1689T tender -- for my 259E -- down to bare metal today. My Dremel kick the @ss out of the spider-web rust-veins ... gone ... history! I polished up the journal boxes, too ... but ... 6 are brass colored, 2 are nickel colored.  I think they were all nickel-plate over brass at some point, but most of the nickel has worn away. I tried to de-nickel the remaining two, but it's melded on to the underlying brass with some super-duper atomic bond thing going on!)

Are you on the hunt for front and rear trucks for the 259? If so, I'll keep my ebay eyes open for you.

Cheers!

TJ


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## T-Man

The name plates have Lionel Lines. I just posted to keep it updated. I have been paint and gluing most of the day. I running low on supplies too.


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## servoguy

tj, if you want to nickel plate parts, any good plating shop can do it for you. Then you could polish the nickel. The shop would probably use an electroless nickel process.
Bruce Baker


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## tjcruiser

Bruce,

I hadn't thought about that. Good tip. Any idea as to cost for such a small batch of parts (say, like 8 little Lionel journal boxes)?

Cheers,

TJ


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## servoguy

I know a guy at a plating company here in Orlando who would probably do them for nothing. The big cost is in all the polishing, and if you have done that, all the plater has to do is put them in the tank for a few minutes. He will need some way to hold them, and so you might want to solder a wire to the inside of one of the tabs. Ask the plater about this.
Bruce


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## T-Man

Do they do copper also?


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## tjcruiser

Wow ... that's encouraging. I'll poke around my local area to see if there are any platers. If it's simply a matter of them "popping them into the magic bath", then maybe it's easy/cheap for them to team my goodies up with whatever big runs they're doing.

Good thinking, Bruce. I'll definitely do some digging on my end.

TJ


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## servoguy

You can do copper yourself. You need a chunk of pure copper, some copper sulfate to make a solution, and a DC power supply. A friend of mine used to do copper plating when I was a kid. The plater definitely can do copper.
Bruce


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## tjcruiser

Anton here on the forum talked about plating a few months back. At the time, I did a little Wiki & Google reading up ... the basic principals seemed not that complicated, as long as one has the proper liquid solution.

I wonder if copper flashing (for house roofing) is in near-pure form? I would suspect so. Newer pennies are not ... I know that ... mostly zinc, I think.

You got me thinking on this one, Bruce ...

TJ


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## servoguy

The last time I needed some pure copper, I got a piece from a plating shop. They buy large ingots, and when the ingot is almost gone, they send it back to the recycling company.

The copper flashing is almost pure copper, and so is copper wire. For all you need, some copper wire should be fine. 
Bruce Baker


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## T-Man

*Continued*

I cleaned again and finally primed the shell pieces. I gave the elves the day off and didn't need sunglasses for the final cleaning.

I want to look at weights so I will need neasurements or I will give you pictures to mark up to give me the idea of the size and where they go.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Glad to see the 259 project showing some headway. I'm heading out of town for a couple of days over T'giving. I'll be around a computer, but not near my 259. That said, I'd be happy to measure and sketch out the weights for you upon my return, if that would help.

My later-generation 259 has two weights (one forward, one rear). Though I think your early-generation 259 had only one weight forward.

Regards,

TJ


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## T-Man

*Primed*

I am planning on a color scheme of a blue boiler and black frame and steamchest. I also started rewiring the motor too.


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## SkyArcher

Show us how to rewire a motor.


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## T-Man

Ok The tricky part is the e unit. 
Two wires go to the brushes. Then a feed and a ground.
Throw in a wire to the bulb. Tie in the coil and E unit coil.
I'll show the connections.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Primed parts looking nice! 

I like the idea of a blue color scheme. With my growing brood of 1681's, I've been thinking about doing one of those in blue.

In looking at your unassemble shell pieces, I'm recalling the reassembly sequence notes that I wrote to myself on my 259 project ... especially in way of the sandpipes. A gentle reminder:

"It's critical that you install the sandpipes (?) that come down from the front dome into the frame BEFORE you place that section of the boiler shell into the frame itself with proper tab alignment. If you don't do this first, you'll be boxed out. And, make sure that that front dome is installed (with tabs bent) PRIOR to installing the sandpipes. The handrails can be installed after the shell pieces are all tabbed together."

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

Thanks for the reminder. This has dragged on for too long. 
Now can you draw in those weights so I can see how they fit? Please You can work Paint can't you?

I can't see how the steam chest weight sits with the tab from the frame sittiing at the opening and the engine tabs meeting it?

I didn't get them MR. Clean but I am pleased so far. The cab is STRAIGHT TOO!


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## Smokestack Lightning

T-Man said:


> Do they do copper also?


Chrome plating starts with a layer of copper, so yes:thumbsup:


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## T-Man

Read up!

Steel or copper base, nickel then chromium.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Will do on the weight drawings. Gotta wait until Monday, though ... train's there (office), I'm here (home).

TJ


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## T-Man

No Hurry! I need paint.


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## T-Man

*Love me Tender*

Time to bring up the Rear.

Tear down was a snap. Three pieces to strip.









After 4 rounds of oven cleaner and scotch brite.


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## T-Man

*More Loving*

Then a round of rubbing compound and scotchbrite before a rest.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I really like that tender styling. A gucci version of the little ones that go with my 1681's. Same three-piece assembly. Yours really "pops" nicely with rivets, handrails, etc.

Color here? You said you were thinking blue on the loco. Same on tender?

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

Blue in the square. Black for the rest and the engine frame and steam chest. Two tone. If I get another one from the latter period I may go with the metal look. We will have to see that much later.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> Blue in the square. Black for the rest and the engine frame and steam chest. Two tone.


:thumbsup::thumbsup: Like it!


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## T-Man

*The elf touch*











Then the paint shop.


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## tjcruiser

T,

Looks like those elves are working overtime. Some Dremel action, too? You're giving me a run for the money with those shiny bits!

TJ


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## imatt88

T-Man,

Great job (as usual)! 

I think you and TJ are trying singlehandedly to save all those old Lionel prewar trains from the landfill:laugh:

Nothing wrong with that, You guys do great work, and another train saved:thumbsup:


Cheers, Ian


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## T-Man

TJ I believe those last two pictures were at the same time. It was all in the lighting. The auto mod messes with it I guess. In the right light it did shine. The cool weather is giving me trouble with the gloss black. The top piece ran and I am trying to recover.

Ian it is fun but work too. It's something to tinker with and give a good rest between bouts. I enjoyed the passenger cars more. I almost snagged a 248 shell last night on e bay with all the exterior parts but somebody grabbed it. 

I cleaned the brass rods today.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

The cold weather is beginning to wreak havoc on my outside painting, too. I tried spraying my 3-piece tender gloss black the other day in about 50 degree temp. The paint can and parts were warm from being inside. I sprayed outside quickly, then brought the pieces back in. But as the paint began to dry, it turned foggy, rather than glossy. I let that fully dry, then resprayed later ... but a section of paint on the frame wrinkled up. 

Have you ever seen the paint go "foggy" during spraying in colder weather?

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

My theory is spray with the middle of the can. I think the non gloss is a bad mixture, shaking helps, but with a new can you have to spray out crap,. I may spray something small at first, before use it on THE Project. It just may be too much thinner that sprays first. It eats up the sprayed paint and you get wrinkles. I see this more with different manufacturers, that is why I test the primer with a new paint first or have it dry for days first.
Cheerios!


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## Smokestack Lightning

I love this thread T-man:thumbsup::smokin:


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## T-Man

*Preview*


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## servoguy

TJ, I had some paint fog on me some years ago, and I wiped it with lacquer thinner, and the fog disappeared. This was dye for leather seats. I don't know if it will work for you or not.
Bruce Baker


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, Bruce. Good tip to remember. I think I'll try that out on a small fogged section of my tender top piece. It's the bottom frame that's wrinkly at this point. Gonna try sanding and respraying that one.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I recognize that cowcatcher!

Do you spray with pieces hanging vertically, or are they only drying oriented that way? Just curious.

TJ


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## T-Man

I hang since they are sprayed outside and hung inside. 
Practice helps.That gloss black wants to run, in comparison to the flat.
The top of the tender had to be restripped, I couldn't save it.


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## tjcruiser

*Lionel 259 Loco Ballast Weights*

T-Man,

Per your request, here's some info on ballast weights for a Lionel prewar 259 loco ... specificallay, my later-generation 259E, which has a weight in the steam chest, and one in the cab. That said, I believe your early-generation 259E had only the one weight in the steam chest (per earlier dialog with Boston&Maine).

Several photos/dimenstion below, I hope self-explanatory, more or less.

It's very important that you drop the forward weight inisde the steam chest BEFORE you tab the steam chest to the underside of the frame. Once the steamchest is installed, the weight is held captive. !!!!!

The weight was originally rivetted to the forward face of the steam chest. In my rebuild, I replaced this rivet with a screw, washer, and locknut ... screwhead on the foward side, locknut on the rear side.

The 1/16" deep notch on the forward weight goes towards the bottom, to provide clearance for the head of the front-truck pivot rivet.

The "ears" of the forward weight face to the rear. There's a flange on the loco frame that tucks down (vertically) between these ears, though it doesn't actually touch the ears. The flange is used to hold a pair of "dimples" on the forward side of the motor assembly cheeks.

The locknut (on weight mount screw, mentioned above) that holds the weight to the steamchest is located just forward of this frame-motor-mount flange. (Though they don't touch ... there's a little gap in there.)

The rear weight is a bit of a crazy shape. It sits on top of the after-portion of the frame, which is really the cab floor in this location. I've done a little drawing to explain. There's a screw that passes down vertically through the hole in the weight, then through the loco frame (floor of the cab here), then through a horizontal flange on the rear of the motor, with a locknut underneath, tying it all together.

I had to use a little 90-degree phillips-head ratchet screwdriver to grab the screwhead in the cab while tightening the nut on the bottom (below the motor flange).

RETHINK ... I might (???) have one extra nut on the rear weight screw, inbetween the bottom of the cab floor and the top of the motor flange. Top nut locks the weight to the loco frame / cab floor; bottom nut locks the motor flange to the screw.

Hope this helps,

TJ


That's 1-1/16" between the "ears" of the forward weight (hard to read on photo).


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## servoguy

T-Man & TJ,
I think it is great that you guys are restoring these old locos. I enjoy bringing stuff back to life also. When I was a kid, if I couldn't make or repair it, it didn't exist. I didn't have a lot of money for buying stuff.
BB


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## T-Man

B& M started the craze. After finding out that these relics were inexpensive I was hooked. I don't mind a few missing parts knowing I can get them. 
Tj's work is something else to behold. I am just amazed. Though I don't prefer a "new" look, which is harder to do. I try to make it look respectable by using as many of the original pieces that I can.

TJ I looked at the specs My steamchest does not have a rivet hole and has a flat bottom. I know about the tabbing that is why I stopped to assess the weights.Your rear painted weight picture confuses me because of the angle taken. I'll look more at it tomorrow. Great presentation!:thumbsup:

The forward info helps I know how to fit it in. The rear I am going to design a new one I think. I would try to fit one in the overhead but it may become top heavy


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## Reckers

I absolutely love looking at these brand-new looking units, once you guys have restored them! I believe you guys will find you earned yourselves a lifetime gate-pass to Hobo's heaven, when your time comes.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

Bruce, T-Man, Reckers,

Thanks for the pats on the back. Much appreciated, but I'll bounce back much of the "how did I learn that" credit to T-Man, Stillakid, and many others here on the forum. Consider it a group effort!]

T ... glad the weight info offered some help. Happy to contribute!

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

Keep it up! It won't hurt to try a different engine.

I have concluded the tin shell is light. In comparison a 2026 shell with steamchest is 2.5 lbs. So no diet for this engine. I won't come close to that weight but a little bit helps. I may get three pieces in the steam chest and i want to lean one against the front of the cab.


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## servoguy

T,
Don't make the engine nose heavy. I have a 1665 0-4-0 switcher that was originally very nose heavy. The rear drivers had almost no weight on them. I added some lead weights to the rear of the loco, and it runs a lot better now. 
Bruce Baker


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## T-Man

That is true!

I plan on rear weights too. I don't think the weight gain will be a lot, I just want to improve it before it goes together. With slot cars I played around a lot with weights years ago, except you don't pull anything with a slot car.

This is last pic until I assemble it. True Blue Krylon.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> ... you don't pull anything with a slot car.


Wheelies! 

Good dialog / tips on front-to-back weight distribution and keeping the wheel force balanced. I like it!

TJ


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## T-Man

I can't believe the number of people watching this thread.
I guess the pressure is on.

I sprayed the tender side piece black today. The other day I painted the insert blue and masked it off. I took a second lok at the shell today. OMG it's a beaut. I noticed a small dent too!

Next I will clean up the copper. TJ they are all copper right??? Not plated.

I am also planning a secret add on.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> I can't believe the number of people watching this thread.
> I guess the pressure is on.
> 
> I sprayed the tender side piece black today. The other day I painted the insert blue and masked it off. I took a second lok at the shell today. OMG it's a beaut. I noticed a small dent too!
> 
> Next I will clean up the copper. TJ they are all copper right??? Not plated.
> 
> I am also planning a secret add on.



A secret Dino in the cab?
I like the blue!:thumbsup: Add some CNJ decals and a dark blue roof.:thumbsup:

How can you tell how many are just watching this thread?
Or do you mean looking?
Is there a way to tell how many are subscribed to a thread?


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## T-Man

It's just the number of how many have watched. It was at 500 when I returned to the paint.

No DIno's 

I may destroy the look with the old decor pieces. I haven't solved my problem about finding used rods either. I am still deciding. Plus I have to fit more weights.

For the secret it was missing something and I want to add something on. For Suspense I guess. 

The blue will work out. I didn't want to go too light. If I can just get the courage to lift the tape off the tender......


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## T-Man

*Pasts Reviewed*

I have been going here for two and a half years now ay MTF. Since we have new members it may not be a bad idea to recoup some of my projects. I have a lot of picture so reviewing this I can date the photos for ease of access. So I will present some before and after pictures.

May 0f 2009 

The 1925 version of the 610 and 613 coaches.










After some paint.











Nov 2008 The 248











...


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Re: domes and smokestack ...



T-Man said:


> Next I will clean up the copper. TJ they are all copper right??? Not plated.



You'd better do the magnet test. I can't tell for sure from your photo, but yours look copper, in which case they are likely full copper. A dremel brush job should clean them up fine. I airplane-dope clear coat mine. However ...

On my 1681's the original domes have a chromed finish. I've noticed that one some locos, the domes are non-magnetic, and I can stripp (wire brush/buff, really) those down to the underlying virgin copper. However, on other locos, the chromed domes are MAGNETIC ... those have a steel core, and you wouldn't want to strip those.

Bottom line ... do the magnet test. No stick = copper.

(One other trick on these ... if ever in doubt, hit the dremel brush to the underside (hidden) part of the dome, and experiment there.)



T-Man said:


> If I can just get the courage to lift the tape off the tender......


Also, re: paint tape removal ...

Here's another trick for you. On my little tenders that go with my 1681's, I've had to tape off the inset field during repaint. Before I pull the tape off, I very carefully run around the edge of the tape with a very sharp straight edge razor blade. It cuts through the color-transition edge just enough such that when you pull the tape off, it won't peel the paint edge with it.

I have to say that I'm one of those enthusiastically watching this 259 project of yours. Partially 'cause I did one of my own. Partially 'cause I'm anxious to see a blue color scheme. But mostly 'cause I'm always amazed at how good your stuff turns out.

So ... you've baited the hook. We've all nibbled. Reel us in!

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed

yes but out of 960 views there only around 7 of us that replied.

that seems strange.hwell:


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## tjcruiser

He's not paying the others just yet.

You did get your check from T-Man in the mail this month, right, Ed ?!? I've deposited mine already. 

TJ


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## Smokestack Lightning

big ed said:


> yes but out of 960 views there only around 7 of us that replied.
> 
> that seems strange.hwell:


Trolls:laugh:


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## SkyArcher

I'm just waiting for my check to come before I contribute.

That blue shell looks great!!


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## T-Man

The Number 2 Elf sent them out two days ago.

Yesterday I played with the tender. The black was thin and touch up will be required. Two tone worked. I am beginnig to think that Krylon makes the Wally brand. The copper cleaned up and I used a clear coat spray on the domes and stack.

Aside from working on engine weights I need some in the tender too. I don't pull a lot of cars but I have circles with tight curves.

Another thing to rejoice about is the fact that I have no deadline.

BTW since I am a tease with no pictures I want to inform you that I have found my next revival. I have no idea of it's operating condition. Parts are missing so I may need good reference pictures. It's in the mail now heading toward it's salvation. The engine motor is a TJ favorite, the Lionel Jr. Do you know anything about a 1689E?


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

" ... towards its salvation ..." <=== Love it!

A 1689E?

I had one in my hand yesterday at the Marlborough, MA show. Then back on the table. Then back in my hand. My brain was churning away. Nice loco. Yes, essentially the same motor as my 1681's. Guy had it tagged for $79 ... would only go as low as $70. Too rich for me. I see them cheaper on ebay.

I'm sure you know that that's the so-called Vanderbilt loco. A small version. All in gunmetal, I think. (Uhhh ... I wonder if some of the red Mickey ones used the same shell?) Lionel made a larger version, too (forget the number at this point). I think that the large version came with the round-style Vanderbilt tender. If I recall, the 1689 has a one-piece shell, whereas the larger version had a separate cab casting.

Bottom line ... great looking loco. How deep did you have to dig ($$$), if you don't mind my asking?

(I have a 258 on the way ... the one that's a simpler cousin to the 259. Winter work.)

Congrats on the new adoption. Let's see those 259 baby pics, huh!

Ohhh ... I'm just seeing the blue painted shell pic above now. SWEEEET! Krylon "True Blue", huh? So what paint is the Wally brand, then??? Your black ???

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

Ohh the 258 is on my list.

The 1689e was in pieces so here is the shell. The ebay link didn't work. 
It was a buy it now option just listed this weekend. It was 25 with 10 to ship. The price always draws me in. I hope I have enough pieces.









The gloss black is a Wally one.

I added pieces today.


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## T-Man

*Ok ok ok*

More Tidbits


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## T-Man

*The Dents*


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I thought you were taunting us there for a minute!

1689 shell (at least) looks nice. Solid. Chrome bits all there. Should be an easy strip/paint, if you go that route. Nice loco ... I'm jealous!

OK ... on to the 259 ...

I love, LOVE that blue color! Looks wonderful with the black offset. Really nice ... I may "steal" this one from you on one of my next redos.

Important! Make sure you insert those sandpipes that come down from the front dome carefully underneath the handrails BEFORE you mount the shell to the frame. Gotta get the bottom of the pipes into the holes in the frame.

Think about the "dreaded rivet" of the valve gear into the frame, too. I nixed mine, went with a round-allen-head screw, instead. (Had to enlarge frame hole just a hair.) If you go that route, length of screw is tight ... too long, and you won't have room for the sandpipes inside the shell.

You got lucky with your "L" insignias ... look in nice shape. Mine were too faded. Had to go with stick-on (no tabs) repros.

Don't worry about the dents. All of my guys have little dings if you look closely. I've peened some of them out (using Reck's leather belt trick!), but even then, there's always some residual small ripple in the sheet metal. Character, I say ... adds _character_.

No more paper towel shrouds, OK?

TJ


----------



## T-Man

I hear Elves moaning. Don't let some pictures fool you . It is a darker blue but the light lightens it right up.

The tender is almost ready. Just the weight addition.
I need to look at the pipes. I am keeping both of my old rivets. One side does not have the horizontal slide piece
I templated a cab weight today. I want to cover the ugly front of the cab.
I will picture the cab,and rivet areas. Not today though.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I don't have my 259 in front of me, however ...

I'm recalling the cab on my 1681's. The front of the cab has a slot. When reinstalling the motor, you have to poke a small screwdriver through the slot and push the e-unit lever to "coach" it up through its slot in the shell. It's really the only way to get the motor to fit.

Is there a slot on the 259 cab front? I don't think so, but check that you can get the motor (and e-unit lever) back in place before you commit to blocking off the front of the cab with a weight.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Boston&Maine

I like the blue... A few weeks ago, someone was selling a 259E and tender that they painted in the Blue Comet livery


----------



## T-Man

*Sing the Blues*

No progress today, too many posts!

Here is the cab pictures. Plenty of room for the engine and lever.

The tender is a challenge to assemble.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

On my little 1661T tenders (similar tinplate components), I loosely place the side shell into the frame (tabs in slots, but not bent), then slide the top piece in from the front, just clearing the "ears" that stick up from the sides. Jiggle the top piece to get its tabs into their slots, then flip over and bend all tabs into position.

I fumbled with this my first time through.

TJ


----------



## T-Man

*259 T Tender*

I got it togehter so here is the revived tender. I have a homemade draw bar. The motor work is slow the wheels are off center and I need a good puller to align them. Plus other things.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

The tender looks great. Shiny journal boxes, huh? I really like that color scheme (and may steal it at some point!).

Smart move having a long draw bar. For some crazy reason, the little 1661 tenders that go with my 1681's hook directly to the back of the loco. As the loco drives around a turn, the back of the loco cab just barely clears the rounded corners of the tender top, and I mean barely ... paper-thin clearance. I wish I had a long draw bar setup for my little guys.

Looking forward to the loco assembly (hint ... hint ...)

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

It looks great T.:thumbsup:

Picture with the engine?

Now all you need is some old passenger cars to paint blue.

I still think CNJ would look great on the side.


----------



## T-Man

*Pumping Iron*

Remember these. I fitted up a weight to go into the cab. Then I came up with an idea. I made a bracket to hold it in place and used the slit in the cab. By making two tabs the bracket will hold it in place. So I have a nondestrustive method of attachment to the shell.





















For the fifth time. I have the pictures in place. Now the Steam chest, I haven't decided on how much weight to use. I have three pieces. Two are rectangular and the third is modified. Does it look familiar?


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Nice fabrication. It looks like your 259 has a slot on the forward face of the cab in addition to the centerline seam where the left/right sheet metal pieces meet. Is that what I'm seeing in the pic? If so, that echoes the slot (for e-unit lever acess) that I have in my 1681's. My later-generation 259 does NOT have that slot, though.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Do you think it was used for the two position switch?? It may not have the throw distance.


----------



## tjcruiser

Don't know. As I said above, the slot on my 1681 is there simply so that you can poke something through it (like a tiny screwdriver) to help push and coax the e-unit lever up through its slot in the boiler shell when you are reassembling the motor into the shell. Without the slot access, it's near impossible to get the lever up through the top slot.

TJ


----------



## T-Man

The weight in place. I am living on the edge by covering the slot.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Your cab weight looks nice. What are you using for weight ... lead?

If the lever is an issue, you can likely coax it into place by poking a jeweler's flathead screwdriver down through the top boiler slot during motor reinstall. It might not be a problem at all on the 259 setup, though.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

I would suggest using a bent paper clip with a small hook on the end and be careful not to chip the paint.

BB


----------



## T-Man

It's all steel. Quite the workout with a sawsall, grinder and cutting wheel.

The weight is easily removable with the tabs.

I drilled the hole for the front weights and they are in paint now. 

I need to order my pickup assy. I can't run the motor without it.


----------



## servoguy

T, I bet a guy as clever as you could solder a piece of copper onto each pickup spring and make some temporary sliding pickups just to get the engine running. 
BB


----------



## T-Man

That's too easy. Why not just go with a catenary?


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> Why not just go with a catenary?


On a *steamer* ?!?!?


----------



## servoguy

I don't think I ever saw a steam engine with a pantograph.
BB


----------



## Big Ed

servoguy said:


> I don't think I ever saw a steam engine with a pantograph.
> BB



The T man is making one right now....... he's looking for some epoxy.:laugh::thumbsup:


----------



## T-Man

To keep it on a roll, I ordered the pickup. I am giving up on the front weight.
That means I can attach the boiler to the frame. The wheels are dirty and need some red paint but the gear is in the way. I am squeamish about removing it from cast metal so cleaning will take some time to do..


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> I am giving up on the front weight.


 Maybe you can simply but a small bag of lead shot inside the steam chest? At least it'll help balance weight/load on the drive wheels. One of those tiny zip-lock parts baggies, maybe?

TJ


----------



## SkyArcher

Use stick on lead weights used for balancing automobile wheels.


----------



## Konga Man

Check this out.


----------



## Big Ed

Konga Man said:


> Check this out.


this is nice,
*Tungsten Putty*

*Tungsten Putty - add weight anywhere on your car!*​ 





 Tungsten putty that is soft and malleable so it can be changed into virtually any shape or broken off into pieces!

Tungsten putty is child-safe. There are no toxic materials in it. 
Packaged in 1 oz pieces.​ *only $5.95 *
Order now​
Iwas going to say T you can also melt and pour some lead.


----------



## tjcruiser

My son and I built a Gucci pinewood race car some months back. Had it all slick, perfectly balanced, etc. Won a couple of early heats ... then got the pants beat off of us by two brothers running thin wedge cars weighted down with tungsten. Super dense stuff.

TJ


----------



## Konga Man

I'm sure those kids built those cars all by themselves, too. Just like yours did.


----------



## T-Man

Part of the problem is weight. That steam chest is held up by only two little tabs. If I had a bad shell I might of tried a poured weight, but I am all painted up now. Perhaps, I can insert some in the boiler if there is room. I did see some derby car weights but never gave it a second look. They would be handy in HO too!
Thanks for the ideas.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yikes! $6 for an oz of the stuff? I think I'd use old wheel weights.


----------



## T-Man

Wheel cleaning consisted of Q tips and pipe cleaners with Goo Gone.
The gear sits behind the spokes.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Those spoked wheels are a beauty ... much nicer than the solid-cast ones on my later 259.

Post a pic of the back gear side if you have a chance.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Konga Man

T-Man said:


> Wheel cleaning consisted of Q tips and pipe cleaners with Goo Gone.


FYI, one can buy naphtha for a fraction of the cost of Goo Gone -- and Goo Gone is nothing more than naphtha and odorants. 



tjcruiser said:


> Those spoked wheels are a beauty ... much nicer than the solid-cast ones on my later 259.


No kiddin'. Those wheels are the shiznits. A _real_ 259 has a) the spoked wheels, b) a level cab, and c) the rectangular badge rather than the circular L. 

No, I don't have one like that, either.

In fact, one could make up a list of the coolest of the cool in pre-war steamers, and they might all have those spoked wheels: 257, early 258, 259, 260, 261, 262. IMHO, they also look much better than the disc wheels on the 252, 253, etc.


----------



## T-Man

Here is the backside picture. 

I do like the sound of the full wheels. I have a set of repros on the 248. It has a rather unique rumble. I am not sure if the spoked wheels will sound the same even though both are cast. 

Everthing on that cab is angled. My theory is that it only takes a drop or a crash to tilt it. I was thinking of soldering the pieces together to prevent it. Just like some of the old passenger cars are. It was just too late after painting.










I didn't know about the naptha. Interesting. The stuff is even a replacement for paint thinner.


----------



## tjcruiser

Konga Man said:


> No kiddin'. Those wheels are the shiznits. A _real_ 259 has a) the spoked wheels, b) a level cab, and c) the rectangular badge rather than the circular L.
> 
> In fact, one could make up a list of the coolest of the cool in pre-war steamers, and they might all have those spoked wheels: 257, early 258, 259, 260, 261, 262.


Konga,

Was there really a version of a prewar 259 that had a rectangular name badge on the cab? I didn't think so.

I agree that 260, 261, 262 all have those wonderful, classic steamer looks. I wish I had one!

T-Man,

Thanks for the backside pic of the wheels.

I've always thought the the cab roofs on 259's look (in general) a bit "back end angled too far down" to me. This may be do to old-age bending and distortion, perhaps, as you suggest. When I had my 259 disassembled, I tugged a pulled a bit, and tried real hard to straighten out that roofline when I put it back together.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## beavis

After looking over your shoulders on these 259/258 restoration projects I've been itching to get one myself, so hopefully in a day our two I'll know how my Ebay bids went.... fingers crossed!

I also love that blue on that 259, did they come originally in any colors besides black?

Great job on the restoration, really like this niche of the hobby may even abandon my HO layout for a while


----------



## T-Man

Original coloring was gunmetal or black.


----------



## Reckers

beavis said:


> After looking over your shoulders on these 259/258 restoration projects I've been itching to get one myself, so hopefully in a day our two I'll know how my Ebay bids went.... fingers crossed!
> 
> I also love that blue on that 259, did they come originally in any colors besides black?
> 
> Great job on the restoration, really like this niche of the hobby may even abandon my HO layout for a while


You won't find a better place to learn restoration. These guys are the pros!


----------



## T-Man

Ebay has gotten rid of the supply problem. Items were scarce because of location and distance. Now You can buy from anywhere.Common Prewar items in 'worst than good' condition are plenty and are a bargain. Just look at the plastic Postwar prices. Also part suppliers are keeping up with the demand.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I do see tons of old tinplate stuff selling for peanuts.


----------



## Stillakid

*Old Parts...............*

While I agree with all regarding the enjoyment of "saving" the older tin units, I was dissapointed last Saturday hearing from several vendors at the Richmond Greenberg Show, that replacement parts are drying up. 45 vendors, tons of AF & Lionel, and no "hook" couplers!
I was bidding on 6 AF hook couplers on eBay. Had a top of $10 and felt good about it. Woke up the next day and saw that someone had bid and won them for $23+shipping!!! The last show I went to, I bought them for $1 each.
Looks like it's going to be sheet metal and tin snips for me!:laugh::laugh:


----------



## T-Man

You should know better. Go for the ugliest car and clean it up. For 23 bucks you can get 6 of those beauties. Eh! That's twice the amount of couplers if they are complete.

Now is probably not the best time to buy, though ebay listings are up 33 percent from what I see.

We have been avoiding part costs discussions. If you need you buy. The best junker is the one with all the parts. I saw an old 259 for 40. Not bad considering rods cost 40, a pickup 12 and front and rear trailers are 15.00. It adds up quick.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hard to imagine that those old hooks go for that kind of money!


----------



## tjcruiser

Jim,

Funny you mention the couplers. I was looking (in passing) for some prewar Lionel latch couplers at two train shows recently. None to be found. Except, as part of old-junker cars, as T-Man suggests.

(I know I can get repro couplers, but with the spring, they're not so cheap.)

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## servoguy

I suggest you ask Mike at http://www.mikestrainsandhobbies.com/ 

He has a lot of stuff.
Bruce Baker


----------



## T-Man

*Painted Spokes.*

WIth just a little of Testors Red.










Question: Which side uses the green and red lens for the front?


----------



## Big Ed

Konga Man said:


> FYI, one can buy naphtha for a fraction of the cost of Goo Gone -- and Goo Gone is nothing more than naphtha and odorants.
> 
> 
> I guess your talking about V M & P naphtha?
> There are different forms of naphtha.


----------



## beavis

T-Man said:


> WIth just a little of Testors Red.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Question: Which side uses the green and red lens for the front?



Red right, green left when lookin at the front if it's like a boat...


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Naphtha is powerful stuff, you have to be a bit careful. Very flammable and also will send you on a trip if you breath too much of the fumes!


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Naphtha is powerful stuff, you have to be a bit careful. Very flammable and also will send you on a trip if you breath too much of the fumes!



Naphtha......................napalm, have something in common.


----------



## Konga Man

tjcruiser said:


> Was there really a version of a prewar 259 that had a rectangular name badge on the cab?


Good question. I could've sworn I saw one in my web wanderings over the last few days, but I can't find it now. Perhaps it was another engine misidentified as a 259, or perhaps all these old steamers I've been looking at are starting to blur together, or perhaps I've been spending too much time with the crack pipe lately.

Either way, I can't find any other evidence to support the notion that the 259 was ever issued with the rectangular badge on the cab. Until and unless I can, I'll chalk that one up to an error on my part.



T-Man said:


> The best junker is the one with all the parts. I saw an old 259 for 40. Not bad considering rods cost 40, a pickup 12 and front and rear trailers are 15.00. It adds up quick.


Which goes to a basic truth: a project is rarely a bargain. It's often a smaller outlay to buy quality from the get-go. But then, where's the fun in that?


----------



## Boston&Maine

T-Man said:


> Question: Which side uses the green and red lens for the front?


Interesting... I cannot remeber 100%, but I think that both marker lights on my 259E were green


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man ... Did you grow a wheel?!? I see 5, not just 4 !!! Nice spokes.

Re: lights. My 259E has them the same color -- red -- on both sides.

Boats are GREEN on starboard (right), and RED on port (left) ... not the other way around as Beavis suggested. (Though maybe it's the way he said "when looking at the front" ???)

Bruce ... thanks for the "Mikes" link ... I wasn't aware of them ... now added to my favorites!

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man

The four I painted were from the 260ish motor that came with the 1689e. The 259 has the grounded axles so I am replacing them. I have 8 wheels in all. I may try removing the inserts and see if they fit snug on a regular shaft.
My ordered part should be coming soon.

I tried to get the sun to light up the markers. There is a red lens for the stack.









My only rod


----------



## T-Man

*Pressing on*

The part was shipped. The shell is on the frame. All that I am missing is two side rods and the left pushrod and crosshead. I may have side rodes that fit but I need to wait until the wheels are on. Next I got ready for the press. I nserted a cut washer into the wheel. This will force the prssure on the center instead of the outer rim.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Your shell with domes, etc. is looking REAL nice. Can't wait to see the completed loco.

Smart idea with the cut washer in the wheel for the press.

You said earlier:



T-Man said:


> That steam chest is held up by only two little tabs


I see two tabs sticking up (not bent yet) in the pics above. On my 259, there's also two tabs on the bottom of the frame that bend over sideways onto little "ears" that stick out the bottom of the steam chest, locking the bottom into place, too.

Assuming you have those, too?

TJ


----------



## T-Man

At the time I didn't bend the tabs. The other two are hard to get at. They do hold it but the top are the main ones. They more or less "assist". I probably should of kept them bent and then just try to slide it in place.

For now I want to finish the 307 e unit and I got my motor for the 1222 HO Berk. So I have a lineup now. I have never had neither of these engines running.


----------



## tjcruiser

I used a dense maple wood block to bend those last tabs, to try to minimize chipping of the paint during the bend.

You've really got the ambitious lineup going in the works, huh? Nice work, T ... glad to see these old steamers coming back to life!

TJ


----------



## T-Man

*shoe in?*

Well my pickup shoe from Hennings arrived today. Do you think I could wait. No way. So the revival continues.

First the nameplate. I had to bend the edges to fit it in. Then I used three punches on the solid copper rivets.










I then lined up the notches with the outside. Guess what? It didn't fit. So the nail file went to work. I work all the interior edges.








...










Next was the tricky part. To place it between the frames. One side was leaning into place so the the other side need the frames spreaded. I started forward,and with a block and screwdriver I got the first tab in. The center I cheated and filed it down some. The metal didn't give much and I didn't want to break the part. So next to the tab I used a small piece of aluminum flashing to protect the shoe edge. I used a tough putty knife to force the frames apart. One slip and I probably would of sliced the tab off or a piece of my finger.


The cheat worked and in it went. The last tab was the easiest, lots of space without the e unit. No scars!!!
I forgot the "wheel pressed on" picture.


----------



## T-Man

*Bad Timing*

I did a fit up. The special tool for the lever was a toothpick. I need to solder the wires in if the e unit and check over the shell to get the last of the tabs. I think I got all the screws figured out. The side rod fits but I have an issue with it rubbibg the driver when the nut is tight. A spacer is needed. The other side has nothing for rods. The engine tested and drove the wheels. 
So this is the graduation pictures..




















Class of 2010









With this I coinincidently submit my 4000th post. WOOHOO!


----------



## SkyArcher

WOW!! Very nice!!!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Excellent, great looking rig! Glad you didn't encounter issues putting in the "last" step.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

Just a quick peek here while my kids are getting in their jammies...

Awesome job on the 259! The blue color scheme looks fabulous. Another old war veteran brought back to life!

Well done,

TJ


----------



## Stillakid

Very Nice!
Bob, great looking color scheme. Enjoy!!

Jim


----------



## T-Man

The thread has been a pleasure. I am messing with the e unit. The engine doesn't want to run. The e unit cycles. It also cycles without the ground lever. The center lead goes directly to thee unit coil. This tells me the e unit coil has a short. It shorts before going to the armature. I touched a brush instead of the center pickup and it ran.

So the coil is grounded works but constantly grounded.

Also the drum suffered a melt.

At the least I have to look at the coil.










I checked the coil with the meter and it has a short.

Here are some retakes.


----------



## servoguy

First class, T. Congrats


----------



## Big Ed

Looks great T, I like the blue.:thumbsup:

Do you have the other wheels for it?


----------



## T-Man

The e unit is pulled and the motor ran under power last night for the first time on track. I don't need the front or trailing wheels to actually run it but to answer your question, I don't have any. I didn't buy a complete junk this time. I need to find out what my other motor is and go from there, or just order repros.











The lens warp shows the wheels off they are'nt.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

As I have been on many, many occassions, I am ever impressed with your talents. It's so heartwarming to see another old "junker" brought back to life.

Well done, my friend ...well done.

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Thank you for the kind remark. Your shine puts me to shame.

I found out the drive rod is too short. It jams the wheel. So I have no rods for this at all. The coil is toast, for the e unit. I found out it has about 15 layers of wire in it. After that, 35 bucks for a new one doesn't sound bad.

Today under power with the shell on, the 259e zipped around the track in forward with it's tender. Ta da ALso dragges a drive rod that I still need to disconnect from the steam chest.


----------



## servoguy

T,
You should be able to find a used E unit at a swap meet for $10 or so. If the lever is in the right place, it should work. As far as I know the electrical part is the same for all E units. I know a guy who has a big jar full of them. I don't know if he does mail order or not. If you want, I can give you his phone number. He is in LA. I bought a lot of parts from him when I was out there. He bought out a large repair shop. He is another engineer and is very knowledgeable about Lionel repairs.

Merry Christamas everybody.
BB


----------



## T-Man

LA? If I go to San Diego again, I may visit him.
I keep my options open. Speed is not esstential. I appreciate the offer. If I get one today I may find a junker with all the parts I need next week.
So far I need front and back wheels, rods, and the e unit. I just may run it for a while first. I have been looking at it's parts since the spring. Thanks again.


----------



## servoguy

T, It it were mine, I would put a drum into the old E unit and clean up the contact springs or replace them. This is the low cost way and that is what I usually do.

BB


----------



## T-Man

I agree, but the coil is gone.
I proved it with a meter. The short grounded the center rail never leavung enough power to turn the motor. The short was on the inside wire unrepairable. On the outside I could of removed a twist but not here.


----------



## servoguy

T,
Pull the bad drum out and see if the short disappears. It is unlikely that the coil could be shorted internally as it is wound on a plastic bobbin. Just a guess, but that drum looks pretty bad.
BB


----------



## T-Man

I pulled the top off completely and used the meter.The first thing I did was disconnect the drum wires. I moved the coil twist, up and down,to see if the short would go away. It didn't.


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man,

In the "I learn something new about model trains every day" department ...

I was poking 'round on ebay and found this current early-vintage 259 listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Prewar-Lionel-2...625973?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3a61c86435

Much to my surprise, I noticed that it has its e-unit lever (or maybe just a manual reverse switch lever) sticking through a slot on the cab vertical face! And, there's no slot in the top of the boiler shell. I've never seen a 259 with that rear-facing setup before. I thought your version (with top slot) was the norm for first-generation 259's, but maybe the one in this ebay listing predates that. Any thoughts?

Some pics in the listing of drive rod positions, too.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## T-Man

The slot must be for the reversing switch. Can't be too many of those shells around with out the top slot.
It's a 1932 259, NO e


----------



## PW_Lionel_Collector

As always, Great Thread/ Refurbishment job T-Man :thumbsup:

PW - Jason


----------



## servoguy

TJ,
This one would be too easy. But it would be a beauty if you restore it.
BB


----------



## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> The slot must be for the reversing switch. Can't be too many of those shells around with out the top slot.
> It's a 1932 259, NO e


I think you summed it up nicely, T ... first time I've ever seen a no-top-slot 259. It's kind of fun to slowly piece all of this Lionel loco history and development together.

Bruce -- I added the loco to my "watch" list, but there's 8 bids with 5 days to go ... I suspect this one will grab a pretty penny.

Cheers!

TJ


----------



## servoguy

Yeah, I am always telling myself not to pay too much. I like to dig through the boxes under the tables at the swap meets.
BB


----------



## Konga Man

Apologies for the necro, but those who care about such things (since it was discussed here at great length) might be interested in this picture of the steamchest weights in another 259e:










You can't really tell what you're looking at, but it's 4 individual weights held together by a common screw. FYI, the 259 doesn't have any weights anywhere, so it seems like they progressively added weight throughout the run.

By way of comparison, the stamped 259 weighs in at 1 lb 14.5 oz., and a die-cast 262 at 3 lb. 3.5 oz. No wonder they needed those weights.

And to answer another question, an internal cab shot from a 259:









I guess that tells us why the slot was there in some early 259e's.


----------



## tjcruiser

Konga,

Thanks for the pics/info. Very helpful.

What vintage is that 259E you're showing? I'd guess '34 or so? My later-generation 259E ('37/'38 perhaps) has a single-piece cast weight in its steamchest, so you're idea of "weight design evolution" is a good one.

I saw for the first time on eBay the other day a very early generation 259 that had a manual switch with its lever poking aft through the cab wall, like yours. I had never seen that before, and I'm sure that explains why some early 259E's still have the slot in the cab wall like that. Can you confirm that your 259 does NOT have a slot in the top of the boiler shell?

Very helpful info on your part ... the pieces and history are all beginning to fall back into place!

TJ


----------



## Konga Man

I'm guessing it's an early 259e, ca. 33-34. It's got the slot in the cab, black spoked wheels, and the seat-of-the-pants weights.

No slot on the 259 shell:


----------



## T-Man

The pictures are great. I settled on the weight in the cab just to balance out the heavy front. I am using her on the top trestle now. I have noticed that some act more sluggish wit that loop. Otherwise she runs fine. I was never a 259e fan but the engine is very pleasing now and a great addition. Next is the old 258 axles and non geared wheels.


----------



## tjcruiser

Konga,

Thanks for the extra info ... much appreciated!

TJ


----------



## Konga Man

This certainly isn't deterministic, but the 259e I've shown also has nickle trim.

Based on my source and observations, the timeline goes something like this:
- 1932: 259 with slotted cab, brass/copper trim, and red spoked wheels with nickel rims
- 1933-34: black 259e with slotted cab, brass/copper trim, and spoked wheels with nickel rims
- 1935: no production
- 1936: black 259e with slotted cab, nickel trim, and black spoked wheels with nickel rims
- 1937: gunmetal 259e with solid black wheels and narrow rims
- 1938: gunmetal 259e with black wheels with wide, black rims
- 1939-40: black 259e with black wheels with wide, black rims

I wouldn't represent that as being authoritative, and there are obviously some gaps (e.g. When was the change from red spokes, nickel rims to black spokes, nickel rims? When did they run out of slotted cabs?), but it's probably a reasonable starting point. And of course, one must consider that it's quite possible for an individual piece to be a hodge-podge of any number of different parts.

The astute reader will also notice that it's inconsistent with my previous estimate of the pictured 259e being from 1933-34.  I based that guess on a) the spoked wheels and b) the front weights. We know that the 259 had no weights at all. How long did they make the 259e before deciding it needed a rear weight as well? Are there any 259e's with the cast front weight and no rear weight -- or did the addition of the rear weight precipitate a move to casting both pieces?


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## T-Man

I thought the weights came with the intro of black wheels. DO you think yours are factory installed ? I had none.


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## Konga Man

I'm guessing that mine were factory installed, as the engine shows no signs of previous disassembly, and the retaining screw was locked by being peened with an X-chisel.

I certainly wouldn't assert that all 259e's had added weights, either. I'd find it quite easy to believe that the first units carried over the 259 design without any weights at all.

It could be that when the 259e resumed production in 1936, there were 3 changes made to the previous version:
- black wheels
- nickel trim
- steamchest weights

I'd still wonder how long it took them to to realize that added weights would help. Could they really have made the 259/259e for 3 years before they figured it out? Maybe so -- contemporary steamers were diecast and much heavier, and this was the low-budget model. The weights that I've got would have been an easy fix on the factory floor: 4 pieces cut and drilled, with one tapped for the retaining screw. OTOH, making purpose-built cast weights is a greater level of commitment and effort. It could be that once it was determined that a rear weight was needed and that simple stacked sheet stock wouldn't work, they decided to make molds for both weights. After all, it would be easier to assemble.


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## tjcruiser

David Doyle in his prewar catalog book suggests that the 1934 black 259E had black spoked wheels.

Konga, I assume you mean that your 33-34 259E had a slotted cab, but also a slot on the boiler shell top for the e-unit lever?


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## Konga Man

My 259e has both an (unused) slot in the cab and a slot in the shell for the e-unit lever. However, I would like to clarify that I am not wholly confident in my original guess that it dates from 1933-34. As the nickel trim and black spoked wheels suggest, it's quite likely from 1936.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks ... good info all around!

TJ


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## Konga Man

eBay clouds the water. Here we have a gunmetal 259e with red spoked wheels, nickel trim, no slot and a cast weight in the cab.

Everything but the red wheels argues for 1937-38. But what's up with those wheels?


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## T-Man

To me the guy is known.
He sold me the 259e.
If you look at the wheels they are out of sink.
He has sold a lot of prewar, too much.
My opinion is that it is junk nothing more.
Don't expect a lot buying his wares.


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## tjcruiser

In 75 years, it wouldn't surprise me at all if certain locos had a lot of mixing and matching (or mis-matching) of parts going on. Konga, that ebay example could likely be a late-30's shell with an early-30's motor and wheels.

TJ


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## servoguy

TJ, especially given a guy on eBay that is trying to make a few bucks from a box of parts.

BB


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## T-Man

I just finished the e unit. It came apart very easy. So my guess is the wheels and the e unit were worked at one time.


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## Konga Man

Either possibility must be considered. Perhaps it's an all-original loco made of whatever parts came out of the bin. Perhaps it's a hodge-podge put together recently from loose parts. 

This guy certainly sells a lot of flotsam. Having communicated with him re other stuff, I got the impression that he is just the conduit; the hardware all comes from his dad. The thing is, if someone's going to the trouble to make even a feeble attempt at putting together a "whole" loco from a box of parts, why not take the extra couple of minutes to make it more presentable? He'd probably make $20 just for taking the time to screw on the trucks. 

Dunno what that 259e will sell for, but if no one bites at $40, I'd be tempted to make a low-ball offer just to get the wheels, motor, and cab weight.


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## Big Ed

T did you say you needed some rods?











T mans repair shop,:thumbsup:










T mans paint shop









This is what TJ needs it is a oven for drying paint.


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## tjcruiser

Ed,

Awesome old-timer pics. Boy, how I would love to go back in time and see all of that machinery and crafting in progress.

I may have mentioned this before, but when I was in college, I worked (interned, really) as a mechanic's lowly assistant onboard the USS New Jersey (!!!) during her multi-year retrofit in CA. The shipyard had massive machine and engineering shops that looked rather similar to those loco shop pics. Huge shafts, gearing, propellers ... everything of that massive size was essentially custom made onsite.

Sadly, the Jersey is now decommisioned, and all of those machine shops and shipyard itself have long since been torn down.

TJ


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## servoguy

To me, one of the most interesting parts of these battleships was the mechanical analog computers that pointed the guns. There is information about these computers on the Internet.
BB


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## gunrunnerjohn

I was an FT and actually worked on the MK-1A ballistic computer, it was all analog with barrel cams to compute ballistics. It was surprisingly accurate for the primitive nature of the beast. It was the size of a washing machine, and had a separate "stable element" AKA large gyro that was about half that size as well. I also worked on the MK-56 fire control system that was developed in the 50's, all analog as well.


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## T-Man

Since the center pickups were broken and one side of thr wheel were insulated from the frame, I have to wonder if it was run on DC. 

That would explain the work on the wheels.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I had missed your pickup roller shoe replacement back in your Post #138. Nice work there. I've replaced Jr-style spring pickup shoe plates, but never a roller one. Tricky job spreading the motor "cheek" plates to get the fiber contact plate tabs in place. I'm thinking of buying a spreader-type pliers (like a battery terminal spreader) to help with this sort of job.

How does power get transferred from the pickup roller plate to the motor itself? I'm assuming a wire gets soldered on to the back (inside) face of the copper shoe contact plate?

Interesting theory about your as-found 259 condition. If it was a DC Frankenbash, how would they have transferred power from the "hot" side wheels to the motor itself? They would have had to have had brushes on those wheels somewhere, right? Any evidence of that ???

TJ


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## T-Man

The prewar frames are tough. The snap ring pliers I have wasn't up to it.
The flashing helped protect the edges. A nice little trick.

The copper rivets tie everything together. The wire gets soldered there.

The 259 did not have any wipers. I missed that. Maybe they never got that far.
A lot of effort was placed on the grounded axles.

There was a loose wire on the top. The easiest way would be to run a wire from a center wheel off a tender. OF course Ac or Dc would work.


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## T-Man

Here is the picture.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, T ... just like the back of the spring-shoe pickups on my Lionel Jr's.

Nice nameplate rivet work, by the way!

TJ


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I'm starting to think about selecting some paint colors for my 258 restoration. I really like your blue 259. In re-reading this thread, it sounds like you used Krylon True Blue (Gloss) for the boiler and cab. Can you confirm that? What color did you use for the frame ... a pure black, or a very dark blue?

I'd like to echo a traditional Lionel Blue Comet look. However, when I look at photos of Lionel's prewar Blue Comets (either Standard or O gauge), the hues and tones of the shades of blue vary a huge amount, depending upon photo lighting, shadows, etc.

I stopped by Walmart and Ace Hardware today ... Krylon has 6 or 7 different blues that are all in the approximate right color range, but it's hard to know which two (boiler and frame) would be a best match for traditional Lionel colors.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

TJ


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## T-Man

I used a gloss True Blue Krylon and a Wallmart gloss black.

For a Comet the top has to be lighter and a Navy Blue or Dark on the frame on the frame.

If your store has 6 shades that's darn good. I don't have that selection around here.


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