# Does $90 per hour labor seem High for repair?



## Upiperbob (Mar 25, 2012)

New to O gauge. Had electrical problems with Hudson 4-6-4. Paid $90 per hour labor, total bill $110 for rewiring of loco, replace smoke unit etc. I really think I got hosed but maybe I'm wrong. I know I will learn to fix whatever happens in the future. Feedback appreciated.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Upiperbob said:


> New to O gauge. Had electrical problems with Hudson 4-6-4. Paid $90 per hour labor, ...


OUCH! That's insane dude. Really. My plumber doesn't charge that much.



> I know I will learn to fix whatever happens in the future.


^^^ Smart.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

As with most things locale plays a huge part. In my area auto repair shops charge from 75 to 140 per hour. Electricians get 75+ per hour. Haven't shopped out on getting repairs done as I can do most anything I need. It likely depends on how complex or involved the repair was. Most will charge a flat "bench fee" to even look at it, and include that in total labor charges. 

One thing I would strongly suggest is browse threads by T-man when looking at some electrical issues, saved me a lot of grief as he knows his stuff. There is a lot of good information available here. If you have a question and don't find an answer just post up and ask. You'll get help usually rather quickly. Guys here are really good about it. Great bunch of people here.


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Seems kinda high for a locomotive. Was it electronic?

Pookybear


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

WOW, I don't charge anywhere near that for repairs!


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

NIMT said:


> WOW, I don't charge anywhere near that for repairs!


Not only that, but Sean is extremely competant, reliable, knowledgeable, and FAST!
The voice of experience,
Bob


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'll jump in with a different opinion here ...

I've spent a lot of time repairing / rewiring / restoring old Lionel locos. If I had to charge myself for all of the time/effort I've put in, I'd certainly go broke paying for all of the work! Fortunately, I'll work for me for free!

Does $90 / hour sound high? Well, yes. However, what did the guy do, and how long did it actually take him? If he did a full rewire and replaced the smoke unit (plus initial diagnostic work, shell disassembly, reassembly, etc.), I've venture to guess that he worked significantly longer than just one hour. At $110 bill, that implies 1.25 hours of work. But perhaps with all involved, his actual time "at it" was longer, offseting the hourly rate and net bill?

I'm not trying to fully justify the cost/expense ... hard to do without really seeing what specific work was done, and how tedious the process was. However, it's a rare thing on my end that I just spend 1 or 1.25 hours to fix a loco ... usually, there's more time involved.

Food for thought.

TJ


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I agree TJ. Looks like a smoke unit alone goes for $15-20. Not sure how much actual wire/solder materials were involved but it sounds like the guy charged you for less than an hour labor.

I tend to look at these things this way - I look at it against what I make salary wise in my job. If by paying this guy to do the job for $110, I save 5-6 hours work (going around getting the parts, removing all the old parts, installing the new, testing, etc) then it's more than worth it to me to have the guy do it even it is seems a little expensive. 

I've found time to be a more valuable commodity than money in many cases. I do extensive vehicle repair, etc., but I take my car to the local oil change place for fluids. Why? Because what takes them 15 min and $30, would cost me a couple of hours and $25. It's not worth the $5 saved to do it myself.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

$42 and over a hour last week getting a oil change. They didn't have a filter in stock. So they sent the kid out, of course he took his lunch break, visited his girlfriend, did his Christmas shopping etc,etc. Valvoline *Quick* change...

The kicker? My son has been using my truck, his car is a standard and using the clutch almost cripples him. He had the oil changed the week before but didn't reset the oil moniter thingy. Oh well.hwell:


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

seem a little high......I would think +/- $45


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## Upiperbob (Mar 25, 2012)

*90.00 per hour bill was $111*

smoke unit, 3 wires and a screw.
You know you learn something everyday. The advantage is I will never go back to this [service shop] again. Thanks for the feedback.

(Edit per poster's request.)


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> I'll jump in with a different opinion here ...
> 
> I've spent a lot of time repairing / rewiring / restoring old Lionel locos. If I had to charge myself for all of the time/effort I've put in, I'd certainly go broke paying for all of the work! Fortunately, I'll work for me for free!
> 
> ...



$90 bucks an hour is way too high, and a competent Lionel service mechanic should not take that much time to do it. The reason it takes you so long TJ is because your still learning. You must admit that your getting better now that you have some work under your belt. For an experienced person that should have been a piece of cake.
Plus it takes you just an hour to surgically set the parts in place to take pictures. :laugh:



sstlaure said:


> I agree TJ. Looks like a smoke unit alone goes for $15-20. Not sure how much actual wire/solder materials were involved but it sounds like the guy charged you for less than an hour labor.
> 
> I tend to look at these things this way - I look at it against what I make salary wise in my job. If by paying this guy to do the job for $110, I save 5-6 hours work (going around getting the parts, removing all the old parts, installing the new, testing, etc) then it's more than worth it to me to have the guy do it even it is seems a little expensive.
> 
> I've found time to be a more valuable commodity than money in many cases. I do extensive vehicle repair, etc., but I take my car to the local oil change place for fluids. Why? Because what takes them 15 min and $30, would cost me a couple of hours and $25. It's not worth the $5 saved to do it myself.


Wow! It takes you a couple of hours JUST TO CHANGE THE OIL!

It reminds me when I was going to lawn mower shops looking for an odd belt.
In one shop was a big burly Harley type guy was explaining to a customer that he would have to charge him $45 to change the oil, as that was his hourly rate. He was trying to explain how easy it was for him to change the oil himself. He said just tilt the machine over and drain the oil out then just take a quart an dump it in.
The guy said that he did not trust himself to do it and would pay him to do it, he made an appointment and left.
The guy looked at me and said do you believe that, I tried for 30 mins showing him how easy it was to save him the $45 bucks.
I said yes because the guy 2 houses down bought a new lawn mower and blew it up because he neglected to put oil in it.

So if it takes you 2 hours to change the oil I would say yes it is worth it for you.
Also I have seen too many newbies working in some of those places, I do it I know it is done right.
Plus I look at the oil and stick a finger up into the pan, take a magnet and see if there is any metal in the old oil, smell it look for water etc.
I know it is done right I have not brought a vehicle to a mechanic since the 70's. 



Carl said:


> seem a little high......I would think +/- $45


Yes even $50 or $60 would have been fairer.



Upiperbob said:


> smoke unit, 3 wires and a screw.
> You know you learn something everyday. The advantage is I will never go back to this [service shop] again. Thanks for the feedback.


Most of the older engines without electronics are fairly easy to fix, when you get into the electronics it gets a little more expensive.
And knowledge.... if you never fooled with trains they seem a little complicated, but with all the know how here and service manuals we have you can get into repairs too.
Lot of people here with the knowledge and know how to help you.

I would say that 75% of older locomotives don't need anything more then a good cleaning of the motor and correct lubrication done to them. Maybe some have a bad wire or worn brushes, an easy fix.

Edit,
Was yours an older Hudson?
Some smoke units are getting harder to find, did he give you a breakdown on the labor verses parts?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Big Ed,
It doesn't take a couple hours to change the oil, but by the time you add in drive time to go pick up the stuff, etc it definitely takes longer than the 15 minutes at the drive-in.

I've fabricated entire vehicles from scratch my current project is a 74 Bronco with a 32V Supercharged V8 and 100% custom suspension fabricated by myself. I know my way around a car quite well it's just not worth my time to save $5 and blow the extra 1.5 hours. It has nothing to do with the skillset required to do the job.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ed,

What would you suggest a professional repair guy charge per hour? For the sake of argument (yours), let's knock his rate in half, down to $45/hour ...

Let's assume he works a 40 hour week.
Let's assume that he bills out 50% of his time (rest overhead, ordering, managment, etc.)

So, he brings in 45 x 20 = $900 gross income per week = $45,000 per year. Gross.

Now, factor in his workshop overhead (rent, utilities, some advertising, business taxes, etc.). Let's say that's $1500 per month, $18000 per year.

So, his "take home" (before considering income taxes, health care, etc.) is 45000 - 18000 = $27,000 per year. That's pretty meager by most standards.

Now, rerun the numbers to a rate of $90/hour...

90 x 20 = 1800/week gross income, $90,000 per year gross.

Subtract the same 1500/mo or 18000/year overhead, and the guy now earns $72,000 per year.

OK ... that might seem high ... but I think that figure ($72k) is closer to some acceptable level of annual professional income than the $27k figure. Maybe a "proper target" would be $60k or so ???

Wouldn't you agree?

TJ


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

...but I don't charge anything...



...that is, unless you factor in the sweet fragrance of ozone and warm oil, emanating from new found life in an otherwise dead machine and wafting across my nose whilst buzzing madly about my layout as payment.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I would think since the engines are so simple and it probably did not take more than an hour that you could fit most O gauge engines into something close to a thirty minute repair time if you had all the needed parts at hand so really at a rate of say 50-60 dollars a job it would actually be higher than the single 90 an hour. the thing is there is just not enough info to just-fully say how much the repair should have cost.

Honestly I only charge for the parts to repair an engine (HO that is) and maybe a 5 dollar bill for me. I just enjoy working on the engines and manage to do a good job at it to.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Bottom line is it's always going to cost you money to have someone else do the work, but the time saved may be worth it. 

Sometimes it can even save you money over doing it yourself (how many times have you tried doing something you were unfamiliar with and fried something?) I've seen plenty of people doing their own DCC installations to save money have to install multiple decoders because they did something wrong on #1 and cooked it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Ed,
> 
> What would you suggest a professional repair guy charge per hour? For the sake of argument (yours), let's knock his rate in half, down to $45/hour ...
> 
> ...



I disagree, That is not his only source of income.

$90 bucks per hour is TOO much.

Highest I have seen around my area is $45 per.

Here is just one from a search....$25 bucks per,
http://www.o-gauge.com/Model Train Repair.htm

There are more, $90 bucks WAY TO MUCH.
$90 per hour just for the SERVICE charge is way too much.

Scott I hear what you say but I would rather do it myself.
I know it is done right with quality products.

To me not all oil and filters are alike. 
Check out what some of those quick change places use.

It takes me 15 min to run to the auto store and pick up my stuff, heck they will even bring it to my house for free if I want. 

But I like to go down and shoot the bull some.

To each his own.

But.........$90 bucks per hour to repair Lionel's is way too high.:smokin:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

So, Ed, using your $25/hour target, along with my estimates above, the repair guy brings in $500/wk, $25000 per year, gross ... less $18000 overhead, for a net income of $7000 per year. That's pretty meager, don't you think?

Now don't get me wrong. If some retired guy wants to take this on in his spare time and do repair work "on the side" for that rate, I'm all for it. No qualms or concerns from me there. "Grandpa" can go to town, and I'll cheer him on all the way.

However, for someone trying to make a go of the repair business full time, I just can't see any profit margin at $25/hour billable rate.

Would I pay someone $90 an hour for repair work? Likely not. The guy down the street at $25 an hour would seem like a much more attractive option to me.

But I just don't see how $25/hour guy is making a full time living at it.

TJ


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

As a young lad, I admired my grandpappy, who was a master mechanic, electrician, carpenter, welder, brick mason, gardener, plumber, and farmer with 90 acres of abundant crops and live stock that he personally butchered for the table.
In spite of all this, he was the first man to tell me (and I've NEVER forgotten it) that "A smart man knows what he doesn't know".
With that bit of wisdom, I've ALWAYS hired a professional to do the jobs I wasn't able to handle on my own. Furthermore, I don't quibble with their price if they know what the hell they're doing!
'Nuff said,
Bob


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

raleets said:


> As a young lad, I admired my grandpappy, who was a master mechanic, electrician, carpenter, welder, brick mason, gardener, plumber, and farmer ...


Wow! Gramps sure was active! Sounds like quite the role model. Great family legacy!


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Wow! Gramps sure was active! Sounds like quite the role model. Great family legacy!


Yes, TJ, he was an AMAZING guy. He was a welder at the Studebaker factory in South Bend, IN for nearly 43 years and a "big shot" with the UAW for negotiating contracts every three years. He always went to Dee-troit, and stayed in a ho-tel. :laugh: :laugh:
But......(there's always a "but") along with all this, he was a royal PIA to most of the family and a miserable SOB to be around for any length of time.
Not only that, his cigars STUNK!!
Bob


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Upiperbob said:


> New to O gauge. Had electrical problems with Hudson 4-6-4. Paid $90 per hour labor, ...


Did you know the labor rate before sending it to the guy? If you weren't informed, then I would have a big problem with the guy.


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## Rich_Trains (May 23, 2010)

I do my own repairs. If I were doing it as a business I would feel more comforable giving a price up front. I've done enough repairs where I know how long it's going to take. I'm sure some would be take longer than my estiamte but then again some repairs would go faster so It evens out, and makes for no surprises and a happy customer. Regardless $90/hr sounds excessive, and it seems as if the shop didn't manage expectations properly.

Rich


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

raleets said:


> .
> In spite of all this, he was the first man to tell me (and I've NEVER forgotten it) that "A smart man knows what he doesn't know".
> Bob


Dirty Harry said "mans got to know his limitations" That's why I don't mess with electricity.

Back to $90 an hour. When you take into account fed,state,various business taxes and there's a bunch of them along with insurance, rent/mortgage, and utilities the guy is barely making minimum wage. I've BTDT.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

Jack,
I run from home appliance repairs like a scalded rabbit because, as a young whippersnapper newlywed many moons ago, I thought I could "fix" anything and ended up costing myself a small fortune having a professional repair everything I managed to break! I soon figured out "a smart man knows what he doesn't know"!
Bob


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Bob,
I'm in awe of the guys who do the electrical stuff. My brain just isn't wired that way. That's a serious comment and not a funny btw. But I have other areas that I'm good at. Built and plumbed a house although I did hire a electrician. I've tackled just about anything auto related. Including building a nascar race truck from the ground up.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

@$90 bucks an hour you got ripped off, plain and simple. Around here, auto techs, plumbers, and electricians don't even make that much. Both of my local train shops charge $15 bucks an hour, with a 1 hour minimum. When I started to get into American Flyers, I figured the only way I could afford this hobby would be to fix my own stuff, and I do. The only thing I don't do is quartering, that will cost me $15 bucks, period. Good luck... Back to the oil change, it costs $20 bucks at my buddy's shop. You get 5 qts of Pennzoil, filter, lube, all fluids checked, and air pressure checked. $20 bucks cash, out the door, and he's still making money.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Here's the thing....did he get a quote up front? I never write blank checks. 

Ripped off or not he should have known approximately what it would cost for the repair going in. At a minimum a do not exceed cost.

Train shops are also making money selling products. Who knows what this local repair guys deal is from an overall business standpoint.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

At that rate, wouldn't a new board replacement be cheeper? Cuts down on the time and he can keep the old board to repair and recycle.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

JackC said:


> Bob,
> I'm in awe of the guys who do the electrical stuff. My brain just isn't wired that way. That's a serious comment and not a funny btw. But I have other areas that I'm good at. Built and plumbed a house although I did hire a electrician. I've tackled just about anything auto related. Including building a nascar race truck from the ground up.


Jack,
When I had my 30X40 "man cave" built in the back yard I did all the finish work myself, including installation of over 900' of Romex with a gazillion dual outlets, switches, ceiling lights, etc.......HOWEVER, when it came time to hook everything up to the main panel I bought a 6-pack of suds and had an electrician friend come over to do the final hook up. 
I was highly flattered and amazed when he told me I had done everything "just right" and he was finished with the job in less than an hour.
I can handle basic, simple stuff, but leave the tricky stuff to the pros. :thumbsup:
All that being said, I NEVER open up a refrigerator, range, washer, dryer, etc. 'cause sure as poop stinks I'll make things worse and it will cost me a bundle.
Sometimes it's expensive to be a dummy, right?
Bob


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

flyernut said:


> @$90 bucks an hour you got ripped off, plain and simple. Around here, auto techs, plumbers, and electricians don't even make that much. Both of my local train shops charge $15 bucks an hour, with a 1 hour minimum. When I started to get into American Flyers, I figured the only way I could afford this hobby would be to fix my own stuff, and I do. The only thing I don't do is quartering, that will cost me $15 bucks, period. Good luck... Back to the oil change, it costs $20 bucks at my buddy's shop. You get 5 qts of Pennzoil, filter, lube, all fluids checked, and air pressure checked. $20 bucks cash, out the door, and he's still making money.


Time to chime in a bit here. As a 25+ year vet of the auto repair industry I heard a lot of those arguments. "80 dollars per hour? You make that?" No, I didn't the "shop" made that, I made substantially less. People tend to look at the labor charge and ASSUME that's how much the guy makes. Those shops charging 20 bucks for an oil change are LOSING money on them, they are a means to draw in customers. They make money on "upsales" of additional services. Truth be told, at least in a dealership, the garage portion is not the money maker. I spent many years at a small "mom and pop' shop, His labor was well below typical dealership levels, as were most of them. They made their money on items sold, not so much labor.

The 20 dollar oil change (figure 30 mins for arguments sake here): 
Labor (based on 15 per hour) 7.50
Oil (5 quarts @2.50) 7.50
Filter 3.00
Misc fluids 2.00
Total here: 20.00

Notice, there is no mention of shop overhead, insurance nor other necessary expenses included here. 

When my customers used to ask "why so much if you can do the job so well?" I answered "you're being charged for what I know". And that good people is what it boils down to in a nutshell, the shop charges for the persons knowledge on doing his job. Sure, they can hire a minimum wage kid to do it, but will it be right?


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

The most I ever paid to have a "toy" train repaired was $106 bucks. This was on a BRAND NEW, in the box, Lionel Rock Island 4-8-4 with "Sounds of Steam"I bought from a reputable dealer. He said it was NOS and to just oil it up a little. Well, after oiling it up it still wouldn't hardly move an inch. After doing some detective work, I found that this particular engine was one of Lionel's worst products ever. After going round and round with Lionel,( who washed their hands of it, and more or less told me to pound salt), I took it to the local train shop where I knew the people. It seems this engine needed to be re-bushed, re-aligned, and a whole bunch of other things to get it running. The repair guy asked me how much I wanted to spend, and I said $100 bucks. period. He said he could do it and the bill was $106.That was 6-7 years ago, and I have only bought 1 Lionel product since, a Big Boy, and that one isn't impressive either.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> So, Ed, using your $25/hour target, along with my estimates above, the repair guy brings in $500/wk, $25000 per year, gross ... less $18000 overhead, for a net income of $7000 per year. That's pretty meager, don't you think?
> 
> Now don't get me wrong. If some retired guy wants to take this on in his spare time and do repair work "on the side" for that rate, I'm all for it. No qualms or concerns from me there. "Grandpa" can go to town, and I'll cheer him on all the way.
> 
> ...


My Lionel authorized repair shop (HOBBY SHOP) here sell G/O/HO/N/and Z.
Track/switchS/scenery products/ houses/cars trucks/ a big selection of old magazines, everything for the model RR etc etc etc etc. 

They have been an Lionel authorized Repair shop since 1938. 

THE REPAIR IS NOT THE ONLY THING THEY DO.
IT IS A MODEL RR HOBBY SHOP.

So you can't calculate their yearly gross based on just the repairs.


Why isn't the original poster replying?
What year Hudson?

Maybe he is in Alaska boonies and that is the only repair man for a thousand miles, then maybe he can get $90 per hour. :laugh:

So my final answer is............................

Unless he was told before any work was done AND AGREED WITH IT,
$90 bucks an hour for JUST REPAIRS is way too high.:smilie_daumenneg:


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

$90/per hour is a perfectly reasonable charge for almost any business which is operating as a for-profit business. For a small operation with normal business expenses, $45/hour is a trip to the poor house.

Does that mean that you end up paying more than the repaired item is worth? Maybe -- but that doesn't mean that the repair guy is obligated to work within the confines of your investment. In many cases, the prudent financial decision is to sell the busted piece rather than fix it.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I only see the 90 dollar price being possible if it is just one guy trying to run just an O scale repair shop by himself and trying to make a living off it. That is the only way I see it reasonable, an actual group or company with multiple retailers should not be charging that much per repair as they can do more repairs per hour, pay the workers the same price, and cover their overhead for less.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

If the hobby shop wants to stay in business, and keep customers, then $90 bucks an hour is outrageous, and that would be the first and last time I walk into his store.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

flyernut said:


> If the hobby shop wants to stay in business, and keep customers, then $90 bucks an hour is outrageous, and that would be the first and last time I walk into his store.


Yes I agree and all the more to walk if he is selling trains too.

Probably trying to get $400 for a $200 dollar engine. 

Even if he is in the middle of nowhere and is the only one around for a thousand miles, even then he would not get $90 per hour from me.


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## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

I guess if he's still in business somebody must be OK with paying $90 an hour to get their trains fixed.
On the other hand, maybe he DOESN'T want to repair trains, but knows he has to offer the service, so he charges $90/hr. to scare people off. 

Personally, I think $90/hr is too much for me to pay. 
I also think $90 is too much to pay for an electric train loco. 

So I buy used and fix it myself.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I pay myself $1000/hour to fix all of my trains. Right hand reaches into pocket, pulls out wallet, grabs a Franklin, hand it over to left hand, slips it back in wallet, and back into pocket.

I'm making a fortune, but this highway robbery is killing me!



TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> I pay myself $1000/hour to fix all of my trains. Right hand reaches into pocket, pulls out wallet, grabs a Franklin, hand it over to left hand, slips it back in wallet, and back into pocket.
> 
> I'm making a fortune, but this highway robbery is killing me!
> 
> ...



If you grabbed a Franklin your shorting yourself.



How about one of these?














Better yet, did anyone know that these were issued too?
a couple of thousand of these would buy some nice trains.
Screw the repairs.











The Treasury stopped printing bills larger than $100 in 1945. All of those were in the 1934 series and carry that date. Though still technically legal tender, circulation of larger bills was halted by President Richard Nixon in 1969 to combat organized crime.


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

Handyandy said:


> Personally, I think $90/hr is too much for me to pay.
> I also think $90 is too much to pay for an electric train loco.
> 
> So I buy used and fix it myself.


Of course, that usually contains the inherent assumption that _your_ time is worthless.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Cool bills, Ed! I'll take 20, please!


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## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

Konga Man said:


> Of course, that usually contains the inherent assumption that _your_ time is worthless.


No, my time is PRICELESS!!! 
I give myself easy terms. I fix the trains for free and in return I get to enjoy returning an old train to service!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good thing you guys never needed my services when I was consulting for aerospace firms, they'd have loved to only pay $90/hr! :laugh:

Since I fix my own stuff, I don't know what the "going rate" is, but I suspect that $90/hr is probably at the top of the charges. I know my car dealer has a posted labor rate of $80/hr in the shop.


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## CW Burfle (Jan 11, 2012)

In my area automobile repair shops charge anywhere from around fifty to ninty dollars. 
But these shops have plenty of overhead in their building, specialized equipment such as alignment racks, and insurance.
Generally mechanics have to provide their own tools, which is a sizeable investment for them. 
The few mechanics I know make around twenty dollars an hour, but they are paid the greater of the actual time a job takes, or the "book" rate. So a mechanic who works fast makes a higher salary. 

So I would expect a repair done through a hobby shop to cost considerably more than a repair done by a "basement operator".


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Handyandy said:


> No, my time is PRICELESS!!!
> I give myself easy terms. I fix the trains for free and in return I get to enjoy returning an old train to service!


Nicely put, I'm with you.If anyone needed a fix, I always say buy the parts, the rest is a tin roof. (on the house).


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Kwikster said:


> As with most things locale plays a huge part. In my area auto repair shops charge from 75 to 140 per hour. Electricians get 75+ per hour.


No wonder I'm always in demand regardless of economic cycles. I charge $60. :laugh:

There's a karmic law in business that I call "give a deal, get a deal". Customer goodwill is a precious treasure laid up in Heaven that you can never be robbed of. The more you earn the goodwill of others, the more you prosper.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

CW,
Working "flat rate" is both a blessing and a curse. If a repair books at 4 hours and you do it in 2 you get 4 hours pay. Yippee! If you do it in 4, nothing ventured,nothing gained. Do it in 6 hours, you "lost money". Groan.
And if the vehicle comes back because you took a short cut, you fix it for free...double groan


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

JackC said:


> CW,
> Working "flat rate" is both a blessing and a curse. If a repair books at 4 hours and you do it in 2 you get 4 hours pay. Yippee! If you do it in 4, nothing ventured,nothing gained. Do it in 6 hours, you "lost money". Groan.
> And if the vehicle comes back because you took a short cut, you fix it for free...double groan


Yup, been there done that, got the t-shirt and tattoo. I used to know guys in the business who worked in a shop until their "comebacks" caught up to them, then they'd move on. One guy was heard to say "God I hate going behind myself". His loc-tite was cross-threading bolts  I took great pride in doing the job properly at the expense of being a bit faster.

Sign in my old service managers office: "Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?"


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

Kwikster said:


> Sign in my old service managers office: "Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?"


And from the customer's perspective, what's a better deal: 1 hour @ $90 or 3 hours @ $45?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Konga Man said:


> And from the customer's perspective, what's a better deal: 1 hour @ $90 or 3 hours @ $45?


Neither, if your talking about a simple Lionel fix.

A Lionel engine is not a Maserati.


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

big ed said:


> Neither, if your talking about a simple Lionel fix.
> 
> A Lionel engine is not a Maserati.


Doesn't matter; time is time. It might well take less time (and expertise) to change the plugs in a Maserati than to fix a recalcitrant loco. I don't know why you'd expect the loco repair to cost less.

Ever try to fix some cheap-o Chinese POS toy? Point being, it's quite often the case that the investment in the repair exceeds the value of the item. The repairman is under no obligation to tailor his rates to your assessment.

Which is another reason why it rarely pays to buy a "project" -- unless you view doing the work as part of the payoff.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

It all comes down to the free market. Why do grown men get paid millions of dollars to hit little balls with sticks? To me it's obscene but apparently it's worth it to somebody, or they wouldn't get the money.

The train repair guy can charge what the market will bear - $90 an hour , $150, $500 ..., but with this caveat - he's got to say upfront what the rate is. If he's hiding it then that's another story.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Konga Man said:


> Doesn't matter; time is time. It might well take less time (and expertise) to change the plugs in a Maserati than to fix a recalcitrant loco. I don't know why you'd expect the loco repair to cost less.
> 
> Ever try to fix some cheap-o Chinese POS toy? Point being, it's quite often the case that the investment in the repair exceeds the value of the item. The repairman is under no obligation to tailor his rates to your assessment.
> 
> Which is another reason why it rarely pays to buy a "project" -- unless you view doing the work as part of the payoff.



You can pay it if it is such a great deal, I won't.

At a hour $90 bucks minimum, to lube a train engine would be $90 bucks, what a deal!

No matter what you say won't convince me that $90 bucks per hour is a fair charge to work on a Lionel post war engine.

*A fool and his money are soon parted.

Not to say the OP is a fool, the guy took him for a ride if you ask me!



*


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Upiperbob said:


> New to O gauge. Had electrical problems with Hudson 4-6-4. Paid $90 per hour labor, total bill $110 for rewiring of loco, replace smoke unit etc. I really think I got hosed but maybe I'm wrong. I know I will learn to fix whatever happens in the future. Feedback appreciated.



Did he tell you in advance about $90 per hour labor charge?


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## TOM32 (Aug 3, 2010)

He could have said $30/hr then hit you with 3 hours labor....do the math.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TOM32 said:


> He could have said $30/hr then hit you with 3 hours labor....do the math.



Then he would be a genuine ripoff!
As I know it is not a three hour job.

Not me I tell you.

You guys think he is fair, be my quest to use someone like him.

Not me.


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

big ed said:


> At a hour $90 bucks minimum, to lube a train engine would be $90 bucks, what a deal!


If you don't have the ability to do the job yourself, then you're at the mercy of those who do. 

You can always find someone cheaper. You don't always get what you pay for, but it's also true that the lowest cost is not always the best value.



big ed said:


> A fool and his money are soon parted.


Maybe -- but that fool is more fun to be with than a tightwad.

In any event, he's still less of a fool than the man who keeps his money and has nothing to show for it.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> Neither, if your talking about a simple Lionel fix.
> 
> A Lionel engine is not a Maserati.


Ed, don't take this wrong. As someone who had to go back in behind someone else who had "fixed it" somewhere else, customers got upset that *I* was going to charge them. Fact is, if you don't know how to fix it, be prepared to spend money. I'd also advise shopping on the following criteria: how long they've been doing it, how much they charge and warranty. Those simple questions can save a ton of grief. As anyone who has dealt with businesses can attest, cheap doesn't always mean good.

My references to auto repairs are relevant in that both amount to skills not everyone possesses. Took me a while to get good at what I do, and I'm very mechanically inclined. Even working on an e-unit is intimidating to me, as it's something I must learn. I can do my own work, but on occasion I feel "oh crap this is new." Once I do it a time or 2 it's a piece of cake.

Carl


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

big ed said:


> You can pay it if it is such a great deal, I won't.
> 
> At a hour $90 bucks minimum, to lube a train engine would be $90 bucks, what a deal!
> 
> ...


Totally agree...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Repairs: $50/hr
Repairs after you tried to fix it: $100/hr


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Repairs: $50/hr
> Repairs after you tried to fix it: $100/hr


Amen! "A smart man is a man who knows what he doesn't know". 
Bob


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

$50 labor rate
$75 if you watch
$100 if you help


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Upiperbob said:


> New to O gauge. Had electrical problems with Hudson 4-6-4. Paid $90 per hour labor, total bill $110 for rewiring of loco, replace smoke unit etc. I really think I got hosed but maybe I'm wrong. I know I will learn to fix whatever happens in the future. Feedback appreciated.





Konga Man said:


> If you don't have the ability to do the job yourself, then you're at the mercy of those who do.
> 
> You can always find someone cheaper. You don't always get what you pay for, but it's also true that the lowest cost is not always the best value.
> 
> ...


Well by the original post it doesn't say nothing about an authorized Lionel repair shop. And the OP won't sat anything anymore???

Your at their mercy? The guy is a blood sucking leech. Hell, find someone else cheaper and he will probably be better anyway then a ripoff artist. 

$90 PER HOUR IS TOO MUCH! Nothing you say will change my mind.

I say the guy that fixed it was just a ripoff who preys on the inexperienced person.
I would also bet he does not get many return customers!



Are you saying that I am a tightwad? 


No I am not, but I also won't stand on the corner handing out my hard earned $100 dollar bills like your "fun fool" to leeches like that repair guy.
I have a lot to show for my money as I refuse to hand it over to the blood suckers in this world.

And I am no fool.
I like to do my own repairs. Be it trains, boats, cars, pickup truck,house etc. whatever I can handle. If I don't have the experience then I hire a pro, but not a ripoff! I ask questions first, I also know some good mechanics, electricians, plumbers, home re-modellers etc. I just don't pick a name out of a hat.

If you like to blow money away that is your preference, feel free to give to the blood sucking leeches. I won't stop you.
It is part of the hobby, and yes you have to learn it but that is part of the fun. Then once you do the more easier it is to do it again. 
IT IS A HOBBY.
There was talk on model boat building, would you go out and buy a kit then pay someone $100 per hour to put it together? I doubt it.

Konga the way you are sticking up for that leech it is sounding like you know him or are him?

I have people I know that pull out their old trains and as normal they don't run right. Most of them just need a good cleaning and lube. I tell them to stop over AND SHOW THEM WHAT TO DO.
Should I charge them $90 bucks for the hour?
Should I charge them $90 bucks for the training course.
Hell no, they are friends and I enjoy the company. And though I don't ask they pay me back in other ways.

Even if I did not know the guy and he was recommended by someone who I got their train running, I would just fix it for whatever parts would cost. My pay? Would be a new friend. And maybe, say he is a plumber and help me one day on my plumbing. Or a car mechanic, and help me with a car problem one day. 

Tightwad hell no I am just not going to support a leech!


A blood sucker leech, that is all he is!
$90 bucks per hour is too much.:thumbsdown:


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## TOM32 (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't mind paying for someone elses knowledge...but sorry, I don't believe there are many people out there in "our" world worth $90 per hour. $720 per day, $3600 per week, $180,000 per year [w/2 weeks off]. TO FIX TOYS????
Nope, sorry
I just took a train engine apart and put it back together with the help of this thread, and I had never taken one apart before. I have built some intricate systems in my career, but never got to $90/hr.
Nope, sorry:thumbsdown:


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

big ed said:


> If I don't have the experience then I hire a pro, but not a ripoff! I ask questions first...


If you don't have the experience, then you probably don't know the difference.

My extensive experience tells me that the guy who fancies himself as nobody's fool is often the same guy who's over-inflated ego leads him to bombing you with "suggestions" about how you should do the job. And _that_ is the absolute worst kind of customer you can have. I charge them more. 

There's a common sign that you see in repair shops with different rates for giving them the work, watching them do the work, and helping them do the work. That is only partly in jest.

If you know what to do, do it. If you don't, STFU and let a better man do it.

And remember, it goes both ways. You may not want to pay the guy $90/hour. OTOH, he might refuse your business at twice that rate.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I've gotten more than that, but not for fixing model trains! I do wonder about lawyers that get $500-600 an hour, that's the altitude I'd like to fly at!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Konga Man said:


> If you don't have the experience, then you probably don't know the difference.
> 
> My extensive experience tells me that the guy who fancies himself as nobody's fool is often the same guy who's over-inflated ego leads him to bombing you with "suggestions" about how you should do the job. And _that_ is the absolute worst kind of customer you can have. I charge them more.
> 
> ...


Are you trying to start a flame war? Are you throwing insults at me?
If so maybe you ought to, STFU.


Your extensive experience, what is that?

 $90 bucks to lube an engine is too much, I don't know what business you run, but we are talking about a toy train engine.


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## TOM32 (Aug 3, 2010)

Case in point....I rescued my train from "the trunk" after it sat waiting for over 50 years. I found a train guy in nearby Las Vegas who cleaned it, lubed it, replaced the E unit all for $45. I'm sure he spent more than an hour..it looks and runs great.
This guy is in the business, has a small hobby shop in a strip mall and just loves to work on old trains....that's the kind of guy I'll deal with. :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I see the konga man is still hear but went undercover.
I do know how to tell konga.

Yes hit and run konga, just be a lurker that is OK.


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

big ed said:


> Your extensive experience, what is that?


Charging customers a lot more than $90/hour -- and having them come back for more.



big ed said:


> $90 bucks to lube an engine is too much, I don't know what business you run, but we are talking about a toy train engine.


Maybe so, but that's only half of the equation. The other half is what it's worth to the repairman to do the work. He's under no obligation to lower his rates (and is likely unable to shrink his costs) so that they're compatible with your miserly determination of his worth. And maybe that means that not many people will do a given job, because no one can profitably do the work at a rate that is commensurate with the value of whatever they're working on.

Toys trains are one such thing. You can buy old trains all day long for not much money. If you have to augment the purchase price by farming out repair work or routine maintenance, you're likely upside down right off the bat. Does that mean that you should expect the repairman to work for $5/hour so that you can justify your investment? No, it means that you made a poor investment to begin with -- and the repair bill is the point at which you finally realized what a lot of other people knew all along. Folks who get upset at the true cost of their purchases are often redirecting their anger by blaming someone else rather than accepting the consequence of their own naivete.

Say you buy a loco for $200. You put $100 into it, and you end up with something you might be able to sell for $250. Bad investment? Financially, yes -- and if that's why you bought it, you lose. But if you bought it for other reasons, then the $50 "loss" may be more than returned in the emotional payoff. 

See, it's hard to speak in absolutes. You wouldn't pay $90/hour. Fine. Neither would I. But maybe someone else would, and just because it's not a choice that you would make, it doesn't mean that he's a fool for doing so -- or that the guy who made the $90/hour is ripping him off.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Konga Man said:


> Charging customers a lot more than $90/hour -- and having them come back for more.
> 
> 
> Maybe so, but that's only half of the equation. The other half is what it's worth to the repairman to do the work. He's under no obligation to lower his rates (and is likely unable to shrink his costs) so that they're compatible with your miserly determination of his worth. And maybe that means that not many people will do a given job, because no one can profitably do the work at a rate that is commensurate with the value of whatever they're working on.
> ...



Well besides not answering my questions, no one said anything about wanting it for $5 bucks an hour.

Your charging a lot more then $90 but it is not something as fixing a toy train I bet!

Don't worry about it, don't answer them.
This is my last post on this.:smokin:


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

big ed said:


> Well besides not answering my questions...


Demand on your part does not create obligation on my part.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

This thread has run its course...thread locked.


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