# Blue Point Switch Machines



## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

So I've bit the bullet and started replacing my Atlas turnouts and Atlas under table switch machines with Shinohara turn outs and Blue Point switch machines. I can't figure out how the Blue Points wire up ! Obviously not like the Atlas machines. I control the Atlas with a double pole momentary toggle switch on my control panel. I was hoping this would be an easy conversion without a lot of rewiring. Does anybody on the forum use Blue Point machines and know how to wire them ???


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Blue points use a stall motor, not a momentary solenoid like the Atlas. They require a constant supply of power. Perhaps the video below will help.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Whoa...according to CT's video...the Blue Point machines are MANUAL...they
have a built in DPDT switch for frogs and signal lamps...but the point throw
is by hand, there is no stall motor. They look a lot like Tortoise...but all you really get is a hand
throw with a DPDT switch. 

Zeethtrains...I'm afraid the only wiring you can do with these devices is
to change the aspect of panel and trackside signals...they do not replace
the under table Atlas twin coil motor. Now, you can create a push rod
type of fascia to Blue Point to 'remotely' throw your points...but
my personal opinion, Return them and get your
money back...unless you really want hand thrown turnouts.

However, all is not lost. You could likely use the Atlas under table twin coils that
you have to throw the points of most turnout brands. That means you could keep the wiring
you have now. Just make sure the vertical from the twin
coils will reach the throw of the new turnouts...and, of course,
The Atlas will need to be realigned to the above turnouts. It's worth a try.

I would add that there is another video of this same tech showing how to
install PUSH RODS to throw the Blue Points...and another that shows how
to wire the Blue Points to control powered frogs. Just Google Blue Point
turnout controls.

Don


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

DonR said:


> Whoa...according to CT's video...the Blue Point machines are MANUAL...they
> have a built in DPDT switch for frogs and signal lamps...but the point throw
> is by hand, there is no stall motor. They look a lot like Tortoise...but all you really get is a hand
> throw with a DPDT switch.
> ...


Thanks Don !!!


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

DonR said:


> Whoa...according to CT's video...the Blue Point machines are MANUAL...they
> have a built in DPDT switch for frogs and signal lamps...but the point throw
> is by hand, there is no stall motor. They look a lot like Tortoise...but all you really get is a hand
> throw with a DPDT switch.
> ...


Thanks Don..... I will stay with the Atlas machines as they work fine with my capacitor discharge units. It's the Atlas turnouts that are crappy ! I am replacing my turnouts with Shinohara and I think they will be fine ! BETTER at least !


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I thought they looked like manual throws with the attached cable, but not being familiar with these or having even heard of them I didn't say anything.


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## Stejones82 (Dec 22, 2020)

Aren't Shinohara Turnouts long out of production? I found some Walthers-Shinohara curved TOs last year and scarfed them up as I was not sure when the new Walthers curved TOs would be available, which they are now. I guess Ihave seen a few true Shinoharas at my LHS, but only code 70 if memory serves.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Peco solenoid switch machines would work, and far superior to Atlas. There are mounting plates sold separately for use with non-peco turnouts. Both DC and DCC friendly versions available. Very easy to wire and integrate with stationary decoders too. They have an audile “snap” which some folks hate. I like it as an audible confirmation that it threw. 
Ironically, my current layout will be mostly Blue Points for greater interaction, with only the staging yard being CTC.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

So ... if this is just about "what switch machines should i consider beyond what I'm using..." what about the "classic" circuitron tortoise, among others?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Stejones82 said:


> Aren't Shinohara Turnouts long out of production? I found some Walthers-Shinohara curved TOs last year and scarfed them up as I was not sure when the new Walthers curved TOs would be available, which they are now. I guess Ihave seen a few true Shinoharas at my LHS, but only code 70 if memory serves.


Sinohara closed up shop in 2018, IIRC. Walthers bought the tooling and is making comparable products under their Walthers Track brand. You can still find Shinoharas in some places, though.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Tortoise and Switch Master are the old favorites in terms of stall motors. Switch masters can be installed under the layout after you have the turnout installed as you only need 1/8 " hole from the point near the points down to the bottom of the layout.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> I thought they looked like manual throws with the attached cable, but not being familiar with these or having even heard of them I didn't say anything.


Yeah, I blew that one. I had them confused with Cobalt switch motors.

I use the Tam Valley turnout control system, which uses servos and fascia button, and a controller card. Unfortunately, the owner of that company retired suddenly and they're only making their stuff sporadically now. Supposedly, NI3X is going to take over the line, but they're not making all products yet.

The Walthers Turnout Control system is similar in concept and operation and would also be a good choice.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> Thanks Don..... I will stay with the Atlas machines as they work fine with my capacitor discharge units. It's the Atlas turnouts that are crappy ! I am replacing my turnouts with Shinohara and I think they will be fine ! BETTER at least !


zeethtrains;

Hang on to your Atlas switch machines, but don't assume they will operate Shinohara turnouts. Those Atlas Snap Switch turnouts you are replacing are made with rivets at both ends of the point rails for a reason. That reason is to make the points throw with very little mechanical friction. The reason they need to be so easily moved is the Atlas switch machine. It is a lot weaker than any other machine I know of.

If the Shinohara turnouts you buy are the same design I worked with many years ago, they will have small copper contacts attached to their point rails. These contacts slide under the stock rails in order to power the point rails. The contacts require a pretty good shove to get under the stock rails, quite possibly more force than the rather whimpey Atlas machine can provide. Buy a Shinohara or two and to operate them with an Atlas machine. Maybe it will work reliably, or maybe it won't. You may find that the points only throw part way, which can cause train derailments.

I suggest holding off a little on buying a lot of Shinohara turnouts until you have an opportunity to run your own tests, using an Atlas machine on a Shinohara turnout. If it works reliably every time, that's great. If not, and you like the Shinohara turnouts, you may want to consider a better & stronger, switch machine. Peco switch machines (called "point motors" by the Brits) use twin coils, like the Atlas machine, but are a lot more powerful. The advantage would be that the Peco machines wire up the same as the Atlas machines and can use your same Capacitor discharge unit. However, Peco machines DON'T hold the point rail against the stock rail. In the Peco system, that function is performed by a spring built into the Peco turnout. If your Shinohara turnouts use the copper contacts, those contacts MAY hold the point rail against the stock rail, or may not.

Your other replacement switch machine options are stall motor types, like the Tortoise or Switchmaster machines, or servo systems like Walthers or Tam Valley. Both stall motors and servos DO hold the point rail firmly against the stock rail.

Stall motor machines wire up quite differently than the Atlas, or Peco, twin-coil machines. They don't use a CDU. They run on constant DC current, using two wires instead of the three wires on Atlas/Peco.
Reversing the polarity of the DC current moves the points. This is normally done with a simple DPDT toggle switch on the control panel. The Tortoise also has built in micro-switches for powering frogs, signals, or control panel indicator lights that show which route the turnout is set for.
I don't use servos. I've heard that they are easily wired up using plug n play cables. I'll let CTValley, our resident servo expert, explain them.

Good Luck;

Traction Fan


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

When I first started my layout I tried Atlas switch machines with Shinohara/Walthers turnouts.
They didn't work out very well at all. I did get them to work pretty good most of the time but
reliability was an issue.
I did this because I had a ton of Atlas machines.
These were the surface mounts not the under table type.

I ended up using Tortoise machines as I didn't have that many Atlas in use.

You might have better luck, I hope so, won't hurt to give it a try.
If it won't work the next best option would be Peco PL10 and the PL12 adapter plates.
OilValley suggested above. Would save all that rewiring.

Good luck with it.


Magic


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks much for all of the input guys.....I will do some experimenting with the Shinohara's and Atlas machines and see if they will work together !


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> Thanks much for all of the input guys.....I will do some experimenting with the Shinohara's and Atlas machines and see if they will work together !


Definitely -- there is no substitute for empirical evidence. That said, I'm pretty sure that the actuating... tab (not knowing what else to call it) won't have anywhere to attach to a Shinohara throwbar. Shinoharas actually model the headblock timbers as well, which means they probably interfere with the horizontal attachment of the Atlas machines.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Definitely -- there is no substitute for empirical evidence. That said, I'm pretty sure that the actuating... tab (not knowing what else to call it) won't have anywhere to attach to a Shinohara throwbar. Shinoharas actually model the headblock timbers as well, which means they probably interfere with the horizontal attachment of the Atlas machines.


CTValley;

zeetrains said his Atlas machines are mounted under the table. I think the little plastic rod that sticks up to move the throwbar might be adapted to either fit between the head blocks, or between the rails, and into the throwbar.

regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Magic said:


> When I first started my layout I tried Atlas switch machines with Shinohara/Walthers turnouts.
> They didn't work out very well at all. I did get them to work pretty good most of the time but
> reliability was an issue.
> I did this because I had a ton of Atlas machines.
> ...



Magic;

Its been many years since my HO Atlas turnout days, but I seem to remember that Atlas used their same big black twin-coil switch machine below the table as they did above. I think there was an adapter mounting kit that let you just unscrew the switch machine from the side of the Atlas Snap Switch turnout, and re-mount it in the under the table adapter. There was a vertical plastic pin that went up through a hole in the table to connect to the throwbar. Same switch machine, different mounting location.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> CTValley;
> 
> zeetrains said his Atlas machines are mounted under the table. I think the little plastic rod that sticks up to move the throwbar might be adapted to either fit between the head blocks, or between the rails, and into the throwbar.
> 
> ...


Yes, he did... but I thought I saw someone had referred to the "next to the tracks' version.

A vertical mount would work with a Shinohara, but of course that makes the placement of the actuating "wire" much more critical; and probably means even more modification of the surrounding track to get it to fit.

I also think that with any turnout with a stiffer action than the Atlas might overstress a plastic actuating rod and cause premature failure.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Yes, he did... but I thought I saw someone had referred to the "next to the tracks' version.
> 
> A vertical mount would work with a Shinohara, but of course that makes the placement of the actuating "wire" much more critical; and probably means even more modification of the surrounding track to get it to fit.
> 
> I also think that with any turnout with a stiffer action than the Atlas might overstress a plastic actuating rod and cause premature failure.



CTValley;

Yes, I don't think the Atlas switch machine is going to be powerful enough to move a Shinohara turnout's throwbar reliably, But who knows for sure? He's going to try it, and then we'll know.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> CTValley;
> 
> Yes, I don't think the Atlas switch machine is going to be powerful enough to move a Shinohara turnout's throwbar reliably, But who knows for sure? He's going to try it, and then we'll know.
> 
> Traction Fan 🙂


Yup. Although a failure in the plastic rod would be unlikely to show up right way.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Yup. Although a failure in the plastic rod would be unlikely to show up right way.


OK....the Atlas machines won't thro the Shinohara turnouts !!!And I don't know enough about other machines. Is there something out there I can try without having to change or rewire my control panel and layout ?


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

As I mentioned in post #8, Peco. They’re essentially the same thing as Atlas machines operationally speaking, but made of metal.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

OilValleyRy said:


> As I mentioned in post #8, Peco. They’re essentially the same thing as Atlas machines operationally speaking, but made of metal.


I was wrong...I didn't have the Atlas mounted perfectly so it didn't function correctly. After some fine tuning, they work just fine with the Shinohara turnouts ! (two of them so far) I would still like to convert my important turnouts with Peco but I know nothing about them ! Do they have a rod that sticks up thru the throw bar like Atlas machines ?


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

zeethtrains said:


> I was wrong...I didn't have the Atlas mounted perfectly so it didn't function correctly. After some fine tuning, they work just fine with the Shinohara turnouts ! (two of them so far) I would still like to convert my important turnouts with Peco but I know nothing about them ! Do they have a rod that sticks up thru the throw bar like Atlas machines ?



Yes, they do. Peco PL10, and PL10E have the rods your asking about. The latter has a longer throw rod. There is also a DCC friendly version. Very solid machines for the money. Extra contacts too for electro frog polarity switching. Plus extra parts available for various mounting situations. Can’t go wrong there...

I have used the Atlas under table switch machines that you have (#65). They work okay but they are, as others have said, kind of on the weak side. They are what they are, a very cheap way to get going...
I have also used, and still do in some places, the Atlas #66 under table machines. They are a bit more stealthy and, also have a dpdt switch incorporated into them. Good for electro frogs, lighted signals, etc. Not too shabby for the price of around $10 each...

I say all this only for the purpose of cash flow being on the slim side at times. We’ve all been there. Always better of course to get the better machines in the long run when funds allow but, sometimes ya just wanna get things moving along for funs sake...

Happy railroading
KW62


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

kilowatt62 said:


> Yes, they do. Peco PL10, and PL10E have the rods your asking about. The latter has a longer throw rod. There is also a DCC friendly version too. Very solid machines for the money. Extra contacts too for electro frog polarity switching. Plus extra parts available for various mounting situations. Can’t go wrong there...
> 
> I have used the Atlas under table switch machines that you have (#65). They work okay but they are, as others have said, kind of on the weak side. They are what they are, a very cheap way to get going...
> I have also used, and still do in some places, the Atlas #66 under table machines. They are a bit more stealthy and, also have a dpdt switch incorporated into them that changes via the same twin coil that operates the throw rod. Good for electro frogs, lighted signals, etc. Not too shabby for the price of around $10 each usually...
> ...


Thanks KW62 !!!!!


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

A whole new can of worms !!!! When I switch the Shinohara turnouts they short ! I've tried two so far. What am I doing wrong ?


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

zeethtrains said:


> A whole new can of worms !!!! When I switch the Shinohara turnouts they short ! I've tried two so far. What am I doing wrong ?


Are the frogs insulated?


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Conductorkev said:


> Are the frogs insulated?


I'm not sure....how do I tell ?


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

zeethtrains said:


> I'm not sure....how do I tell ?



Are they completely metal or they plastic.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Conductorkev said:


> Are they completely metal or they plastic.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

zeethtrains said:


> View attachment 579199



They appear metal could be wrong tho. Does it spark only when thrown one way or both?
I had this problem with non insulated frogs. Whenever the diverging route was thrown it would cause a short and I would even see sparks when it touched. Haven't looked closely at the to yet I just decided to go with a different one. Never used non insulated frogs before but somehow the points were being powered by another source other than the rail they touch. I'm pretty sure it's coming from the frog somehow but I'm sure ppl on here could tell ya more and maybe a fix.


One thing to make sure of is that the diverging routes are not touching in the frog or there is nothing stuck like a nail or some other metal in thst area.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Conductorkev said:


> They appear metal could be wrong tho. Does it spark only when thrown one way or both?
> I had this problem with non insulated frogs. Whenever the diverging route was thrown it would cause a short and I would even see sparks when it touched. Haven't looked closely at the to yet I just decided to go with a different one. Never used non insulated frogs before but somehow the points were being powered by another source other than the rail they touch. I'm pretty sure it's coming from the frog somehow but I'm sure ppl on here could tell ya more and maybe a fix.
> 
> 
> One thing to make sure of is that the diverging routes are not touching in the frog or there is nothing stuck like a nail or some other metal in thst area


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

They are fine one direction but short when switched the other direction !


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

zeethtrains said:


> They are fine one direction but short when switched the other direction !



Read here









Track troubleshooting tips and tricks, Part 4: Fixing power losses through turnouts | ModelRailroader.com


Track troubleshooting tips and tricks, Part IV: Fixing power loses through turnouts




www.trains.com


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Shinohara are power routing turnouts. You have to insulate the frog rails (both of them) if you have track connected to them with power. Which ever rail the points are against will flow power into both frog rails.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

timlange3 said:


> Shinohara are power routing turnouts. You have to insulate the frog rails (both of them) if you have track connected to them with power. Which ever rail the points are against will flow power into both frog rails.


So can you tell me how to go about that ? I am DCC so the track always has power on both rails.


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Your Shinohara turnouts are whats known as ‘all live’. They need to be modified to become DCC friendly. 
There are how to posts and videos here about the process.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

kilowatt62 said:


> Your Shinohara turnouts are whats known as ‘all live’. They need to be modified to become DCC friendly.
> There are how to posts and videos here about the process.


I found that out ! there are lots of videos & tutorials but it looks like more than I am capable of !!!!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> I was wrong...I didn't have the Atlas mounted perfectly so it didn't function correctly. After some fine tuning, they work just fine with the Shinohara turnouts ! (two of them so far) I would still like to convert my important turnouts with Peco but I know nothing about them ! Do they have a rod that sticks up thru the throw bar like Atlas machines ?


Just about every under-the-table model has a rod that sticks up through the throwbar. That's why most models of turnout have a pre-drilled hole in the center. And as I said in Post #19, placement is critical if you're installing them under existing turnouts.

You could convert to Tam Valley Depot servos or the almost identical Walthers Turnout Control System. Either of these would involve "rewiring", but since the wiring for those just plugs in, it's not at all difficult to do.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Put insulating rail joiners on the ends of the frog rails. That should take care of the problem. So entering the turnout you can use regular joiners but on the straight thru and the diverging routes you need to insulating joiners on the rails that connect to the frog. The outer most rails can have regular joiners. On these turnouts, the points in the straight thru position will short the diverging route and when in the diverge position short the straight thru path when the frog is not isolated.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> I found that out ! there are lots of videos & tutorials but it looks like more than I am capable of !!!!


zeethtrains;

The simple approach is to put plastic insulated rail joiners on both the short rails coming out of the frog.

A more complicated (to describe, but not to actually do) approach that is super reliable, was used by my old club. They used over a hundred Shinohara turnouts, and wired each one the same way. Their standard procedure was to put insulated rail joiners on all six rails of the turnout.  Each of the two outside ("stock" ) rails had a feeder wire soldered to it. There was also a third feeder wire, soldered to the frog. Each outer rail feeder wire was soldered to the bus wire for that side. The same as any feeder wire from a rail on any piece of flex track.

The wire from the frog was connected to the "common" (Com) terminal of a micro switch that was operated by the switch machine. The "normally open" (NO) was connected to one of the bus wires, and the "normally closed" (NC) terminal was connected to the opposite bus wire.

This was long before DCC was in use, but the same wiring works for either DC or DCC. The advantage is that the frog is set to the right electrical polarity (by the microswitch) for the route that the turnout's points are set for.

Some form of frog polarity switching is going to be necessary* for a metal frog turnout.*

1) These days there is an electronic circuit board commercially available called a "frog juicer." It does the same job as the micro switch did on the club layout. Its easier to hook up, but costs more.

2) If you stick with Atlas switch machines, Atlas sells a device called a "Snap relay" that can do the same trick.

3) If you end up using Peco's more powerful switch machines, they sell a set of contacts that fits onto their machine and again, it will perform the same function.

4) If you use the Tortoise switch machine, it comes with factory-installed, internal micro switches to handle the same task.

The reason your main route works OK, and setting the points for the other route causes a short, is that somehow you have power applied to the frog all the time, in the correct polarity for the route that works.

When you set the points for the other route, the point rails, and copper contacts, electrically connect the frog to the polarity for the other route also.  Now the poor confused frog is polarized for both routes simultaneously!
This is electrically equivalent to setting a metal object across both rails at once, dead short circuit. It is to prevent this short that the frog's electrical polarity needs to change when the points change the route.

Traction Fan

* There is one way to use a metal frog turnout, like the Shinohara, without switching frog polarity at all. This is an unpowered "isolated frog." You would still use plastic rail joiners on both of the short rails from the frog. You would also need to cut the rails at the other end of the frog, to form insulating gaps. These two measures would electrically isolate the frog from any & all other rails of the turnout. If you didn't power the frog then it will act like the plastic frogs on your old Atlas Snap Switches, "dead". As long as all your locomotives have all-wheel electrical pickup, this "dead frog" idea will work. For what it's worth, I don't recommend leaving the frog unpowered. I don't think there's any such thing as too much electrical reliability. I want my locomotives to be able to pick up power from any piece of rail, including turnout frogs, but that's just my opinion.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Do what Lemonhawk suggest and you won't have any more problems.
Atlas 552 Code 83 Plastic Insulating Joiners is what you need if you're using code 83 track.
The Atlas number for code 100 track is 0055 I think.
Available here Model Train | Train Set | Model Railroad | Model Train Stuff | TrainWorld
A good place for all train needs.

Magic


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

DCC friendly is like saying it is electrically friendly. You can use insulated rail joiners to insulate the frog rails. If the turnout is already down and joined to other rails I would use a rail saw and cut the frog rails and glue in a piece of Styrene to keep the gap open.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> Put insulating rail joiners on the ends of the frog rails. That should take care of the problem. So entering the turnout you can use regular joiners but on the straight thru and the diverging routes you need to insulating joiners on the rails that connect to the frog. The outer most rails can have regular joiners. On these turnouts, the points in the straight thru position will short the diverging route and when in the diverge position short the straight thru path when the frog is not isolated.


OK Don.....I isolated the frog rails and that took care of my short but my loco stalls when it gets to the point rails or the closure rails. I can't really tell which !


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> OK Don.....I isolated the frog rails and that took care of my short but my loco stalls when it gets to the point rails or the closure rails. I can't really tell which !


zeethtrains;

Those copper contacts are supposed to apply power to the point rails. If the contacts are bent down where they can't contact the bottom surface of the outside stock rails, or if the contacts are dirty, they will cause a stall on the point rails, because no power will be supplied to the point rails. You can do a simple test to verify this. Run a loco onto the turnout and let it stall. Then push on the throwbar to force the point rail of the selected route against the stock rail closest to that point rail. If you can now run the loco, the contacts of the turnout are not doing their job.

The point rails are the ones that move side-to-side in order to send the train's wheels on one route or the other. The closure rails are the stationary rails that the point rails feed wheels onto.

On a Shinohara turnout, the closure rails are insulated from the point rails. The closure rails should be jumpered internally to the stock rails, and powered all the time. So I think your locomotive is stalling on the point rails.
There are two metal straps that connect the two point rails to each other. The metal strap closest to the frog has a single rivet that serves as a pivot for the point rail assembly, and the other metal strap has a single rivet holds it to the plastic throwbar. 

We had the same stalling problem with Shinohara turnouts at my former club. We found that the copper contacts of the Shinohara turnouts were unreliable on two counts.

First, they didn't always conduct electricity to the point rails reliably, causing stalls, as mentioned above.

Second, they had a tendency to interfere with the physical movement of the point rails. They would get bent upward enough to get between the point, and stock, rails and prevent the point from snugging up against the inside of the stock rail.

After many attempts to adjust these contacts just high enough to rub against the bottom of the stock rail, but also low enough to let the point reach the stock rail, we decided not to use the contacts at all. We intentionally bent them down low enough to be out of the way, and decided to provide power to the point rail assembly through a separate feed wire and a micro-switch, as I described in my earlier response. This system meant no more stalling on turnouts ever.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If you have metal powered frog turnouts, you must use an insulated 
joiner in BOTH frog rails. When the points move the 'phase' or 'polarity'
of the frog rails change. This causes a short circuit. The insulated
joiners prevent this. It doesn't matter, DC or DCC, the joiners
are a must for either. The new Peco Unifrog turnouts eliminates this
problem. The frog is powered but is insulated from the frog
rails, thus no gap or insulated joiners are required.

Power routing turnouts with plastic frogs do not change the polarity. They do
shut off power to divert if points are set to straight and vs /vs.

Don


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Oh sorry, I failed to see all of the prior comments
so my post is redundant.

Don


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

traction fan said:


> zeethtrains;
> 
> Those copper contacts are supposed to apply power to the point rails. If the contacts are bent down where they can't contact the bottom surface of the outside stock rails, or if the contacts are dirty, they will cause a stall on the point rails, because no power will be supplied to the point rails. You can do a simple test to verify this. Run a loco onto the turnout and let it stall. Then push on the throwbar to force the point rail of the selected route against the stock rail closest to that point rail. If you can now run the loco, the contacts of the turnout are not doing their job.
> 
> ...


OK Traction Fan...You are correct ! I can stall a loco on the point rails and then push the point rail tight to the stock rail and it goes. So the wimpy Atlas machines aren't holding the point rails tight to the stock rails !!! So now I have to figure out a way to correct this issue. I'm kinda dreading having to change 18 switch machines !!!!!


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Another problem with using the points to do the electrical switching is that some turnout (and I think Shinohara falls into this class) is that the point rail that is not used is the opposite polarity of the rail its next to, and I guess that some locomotives manage to sometimes bump a flange or wheel over and contact the point rail and bingo you get a short. This can drive DCC bananas as some power controller like the Digitrax PM42 also have an auto reverser built in and if it has not been disable, the DCC goes into a forever swapping the polarity mode causing beeps,adn click as as relays try but fail to keep up. I think that was why Shinohara turnouts were declared not friendly to DCC.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> OK Traction Fan...You are correct ! I can stall a loco on the point rails and then push the point rail tight to the stock rail and it goes. So the wimpy Atlas machines aren't holding the point rails tight to the stock rails !!! So now I have to figure out a way to correct this issue. I'm kinda dreading having to change 18 switch machines !!!!!


zeethtrains;

While I am definitely not a fan of Atlas switch machines, (or their turnouts) in this case the switch machines may be getting a bad rap. As long as they move, and keep, the point rail against the stock rail, tightly enough for the wheels to go the right way, I think that's all they are able to do.
As you have discovered, relying on rail-to-rail physical contact to consistently make reliable electrical contact is not likely to work.

Shinohara turnouts are a bit unusual in that they have those two metal straps joining the two point rails, and electrically connecting them. That whole pivoting assembly of two point rails + two metal straps needs to have a reliable power feed that changes polarity depending on which route the points are set for.

The best way I know to do that is to solder a small (24-28 Ga. stranded) wire to the middle area of the strap that is closest to the frog. This is the strap that the whole point rail assembly pivots around. With small enough wire, (and, if necessary, the insulation stripped off) you should be able to feed the wire down through the rivet that the points pivot around.

To test my system run that wire out to the side of the unmounted turnout. Then run a loco onto the points and let it stall again. Now touch the loose end of the wire to the stock rail. The loco should run. Now back the loco up, and throw the points for the other route. Run the loco onto the points again and let it stall again. Now touch the wire to the same stock rail you touched last time. The loco should not run, and you may see a short circuit indication.

Finally touch the wire to the opposite stock rail. The loco should now run. That's what you need. Some form of electrical switch that can alternately connect that point assembly feeder wire to either one, or the other, of the two stock rails.

Any of the options I listed in my previous response will work. If you're still dead set on using Atlas switch machines, then the Atlas "Snap relay" would work with those Atlas switch machines.
I'm not recommending this option though. Those Snap relays are going to cost money, and I think the money might be better spent on a better switch machine.
The Peco machine, with the added "point motor switch contacts", has the advantage of not requiring a rip out & rewire of all your turnout controls. However, If you're using those less-than-reliable Atlas blue button controls, rewiring, and a DC stall motor like the Tortoise, with its built-in micro switches, might be best in the long term. Its a matter of your preference, and budget.

Traction Fan


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Is there a way to mount Peco switch machines without me having to cut 18 big holes in my layout ?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> Is there a way to mount Peco switch machines without me having to cut 18 big holes in my layout ?


zeethtrains;

Yes, maybe?

Peco makes an above-the-table mount machine. It attaches to the side of the (Peco) turnout, but there are some potential problems.
First, its a Peco machine, and you have Shinohara turnouts. It won't likely just snap fit onto the ties of any brand of turnout other than the Peco it was designed for. By the way, the same is true for the Peco under-the-table machine. It is designed to snap mount to the bottom of a Peco turnout. Peco turnouts have a special plastic plate built into them, with notches to receive the locking prongs on the Peco machine. This doesn't mean that you can't use Peco machines at all, but some extra work, and adaptation, will be necessary. Frankly, I have found that mounting any switch machine is a major P.I.T.A.

I believe Peco sells a remote mounting plate for their switch machines. That may help, but you should check the Peco web site for details. I think this thing is just a plate with the same pattern of notches that are on the Peco turnout.
I'm afraid its designed only to let a turnout be switched from a slightly offset position, and would still require the big hole, but I have used only the Peco model PL-10 under-the-table machine. Complete with big, rectangular, hole under the throwbar. I have no personal experience with the above-the-table type, or the separate mounting plate.

One ray of hope might be the Peco under-the-table machine which has an extra long metal pin that may reach up through a slot, made of a series of small holes joined together. The remote mounting plate, mounted with screws through spacers, might be used to hold the Peco machine below the slot. Don't forget to add the optional electrical contacts. They slip over the long metal pin between the Peco switch machine's coils, and the bottom of the table. You will need these contacts to change the polarity of the "point rails & straps assembly" on your Shinohara turnouts. That's why I recommend the spacers. They provide clearance for the electrical contacts.

Another possibility is an "Earl Eshleman linkage" This uses a very small (1/16") hole drilled either between the rails, or next to the throwbar, where it sticks out the side of the turnout. The outside/throwbar location is what I use on my own railroad. The 1/6" hole is filled with a piece of 1/6" O.D. brass tube. Inside the tube is a piece of steel music wire that is bent into a squared off hook shape. (see photos) one end goes into the tube, and down below the layout, to connect to the switch machine. The other end of this hook goes through a tiny hole drilled through the throwbar. Rotating the wire causes the throwbar, and points, to move side-to-side.

While any of the recommend switch machines will work, none are going to be easy. 
Some adaptation is going to be required. Also, all will require some sort of hole through the table. Except for the "steel wire inside a brass tube" type I use, all will require a big hole, or a side-to-side slot, directly under the throwbar. The shape, and size, of the hole varies with the brand of machine. Just to add to the bad news, these holes, or slots, should be drilled with the turnout removed. Trying to drill upward under the turnout is almost certain to damage the turnout. Again the exception is the wire in a tube linkage. That can be drilled from the top with the turnout in place.

So the sequence should be this.

1) Pick a switch machine and read its directions to determine the hole it needs.

2) Remove the Atlas turnout.

3) Temporarily  fit the Shinohara turnout in place. Do any track cutting / relocating needed to fit the Shinohara turnout.

4) Very carefully mark the location of the hole.

5) Drill the hole. 

6) Mount the switch machine and test it's operation. 



Good Luck;

Traction Fan


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> Is there a way to mount Peco switch machines without me having to cut 18 big holes in my layout ?


Yes, drill a 3/8" hole under the center of the throwbar. You don't need more throw than that in HO, and you will never see it after the turnout is installed. Obviously, this is more easily done before you lay track, but it is possible, if tricky to retrofit them. You only need a big hole if the surface of your layout is thicker than the length of the actuating wire.


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

18 big holes.
As mentioned earlier. There is an adaptor kit for the Peco switch machines that allows them to be mounted completely out of site under the surface with only a 3/8” hole needed, as CTValley noted.
Also mentioned, Peco makes a machine with a longer throw rod to facilitate this. Or, you can create your own rod extension system. Your choice.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

By far the easiest switch motors to install after you have already put the turnout in place are SwitchMasters! SwitchMaster - Premium Switch Machines - from Builders In Scale Make sure you have a clear mounting space under the layout and if its not wood, glue a 1/4 or even less 4" square to the bottom so you have something to screw the 2wo mounting screws too. Then drill a 1/8 hole down next to the center of the points between the ties, insert a piece of brass tubing, form a lever hook on the piano wire and drop it down the hole so it also connect to the tie bar on the turn out. Make a 90 deg bend in the wire under the layout, screw the stall motor using the supplied standoffs and screws, hook the wire in and connect it up! No accurate measurements needed. See the web site for better installations instructions. Nothing could be easier. I add a micro switch to the the motor before installation and put a connector on the wires, but on the next layout I'm skipping the micro switch and leaving the frog dead. If I have problems I'll use a frog juicer.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Except that making fairly precise bends in hardened steel wire when it's sticking through a hole in your layout is easier said than don.e


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Except that making fairly precise bends in hardened steel wire when it's sticking through a hole in your layout is easier said than don.e



CTValley;

You're right. I've tried it that way and it is truly a frustrating PITA .
That's why I make the two bends that form the "square hook" that will connect the throwbar to the vertical wire-in-a-tube linkage, before installation.
I make these bends by clamping a piece of music wire in the jaws of a pair of vise grip pliers, then bending, and hammering, the wire down on either side of the vise grip jaws. This means the distance across the square hook will always be identical.

The trick then is to drill the 1/16" hole for the tube, exactly the right distance from the throwbar's hole.
I use a simple gauge for this. It's a piece of brass sheet with a "peg" of small diameter brass rod soldered into it near one end, and a piece of 3/32" brass tube near the other end. The peg & tube are soldered into two holes, drilled the same distance apart as the "square hook's bends. The jig lays on top of the rails, with the peg inserted into the hole in the throwbar. The 3/32" outside diameter tube has an inside diameter of 1/16". Just right to insert a 16" drill bit through. Twisting the drill bit a few turns, by hand, marks the exact location where the hole for the 1/16" brass tube needs to be drilled. You can drill directly through the gauge's tube, but it will wear out the inside of the tube pretty soon.

Regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Rich1853 (Jun 25, 2018)

Model railroad control systems has two models of switch motors.
From a link from a fellow TT scale modeler using electronics on a new #8 crossover module




__





Model Railroad Control Systems







www.modelrailroadcontrolsystems.com


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

I've pretty much decided on Tortoise machines. My new question is, will I have to change out all of my momentary DPDT switches for non momentary or can I just hold the momentary switches ? I guess my question is, do the Tortoise need constant power ?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> I've pretty much decided on Tortoise machines. My new question is, will I have to change out all of my momentary DPDT switches for non momentary or can I just hold the momentary switches ? I guess my question is, do the Tortoise need constant power ?


zeethtrains;

Yes, Tortoise machines do need constant DC power. So yes, you will need to change your toggle switches.  The Tortoise is a "stall motor" switch machine. They are constantly on (as long as your layout has the main power switched on.) Built-in resistors keep the current low enough to prevent damage the stalled motor. This keeps the Tortoise simple, and therefore reliable. There are no limit switches, springs, or latches needed. The motor simply moves the point rail tight against the stock rail, and holds it there.

Tortoise, and other stall motors, depend on constantly applied power to hold the points in position, and also to keep their internal micro switches in proper position. These micro switches can be used to control the polarity of a metal frog, operate trackside signals, or control panel indicator lights to show which route a turnout is set for. A very nice feature.

Normally, Tortoise machines are controlled by a DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) toggle switch that is non-momentary, and does not have a center off position. Flipping the toggle switch reverses the polarity of the constant DC power applied to the particular Tortoise machine controlled by that toggle switch. Reversing the electrical polarity runs the motor in the opposite direction, moving the points to the other route.

Regards;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Since they are stall motors, there designed for constant on. You might try them to see how well they hold position when off however. Momentary might also be annoying because you will have to hold it for a few seconds. Another option would be (just to add more money into the deal) to use a stationary decoder like the digitrax DS74 which can use momentary switches to activate stall motor machines. Also using latching switches or the stationary decoder will allow you to use a bi lead two color LED in series with the stall motor as an indicator of the turnout position. The DS74 can use simple pushbutton to sequence the turnout on every push.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> I've pretty much decided on Tortoise machines. My new question is, will I have to change out all of my momentary DPDT switches for non momentary or can I just hold the momentary switches ? I guess my question is, do the Tortoise need constant power ?


Yes, they do. As do all stall motors / servos.


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

Thanks for the info guys....;appreciate all the help ! I'm learning a little at a time !!!!


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

I'm guessing I won't need the capacitor discharge units with the Tortoise machines ! And it looks like I have to change my 12 volt power supply to 9 volts for the tortoise machines !!!


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Tortoise will work with 12 volts.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

zeethtrains said:


> I'm guessing I won't need the capacitor discharge units with the Tortoise machines ! And it looks like I have to change my 12 volt power supply to 9 volts for the tortoise machines !!!


Yes, you're right, you won't need (and should not use ) a capacitive discharge unit with Tortoise machines. It might damage the Tortoise machines. The Tortoise runs on constant DC voltage. A 9 volt DC motor will run on 12 volts DC. It will just run faster. However, don't take my word for it. While I do use DC stall motors on my layout, they are Hankscraft brand motors, not Tortoise machines Check the Circuitron/Tortoise website for their recommended voltages. If nine volts is what they recommend, you can add a resistor, or voltage regulator, to bring 12 volts down to 9 volts, or just use a "Wall Wart" plugin power supply that has a 9 volt DC output to power your Tortoise machines. Circuitron probably sells such a device specifically to power their Tortoise machines.

Traction Fan


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

traction fan said:


> Yes, you're right, you won't need (and should not use ) a capacitive discharge unit with Tortoise machines. It might damage the Tortoise machines. The Tortoise runs on constant DC voltage. A 9 volt DC motor will run on 12 volts DC. It will just run faster. However, don't take my word for it. While I do use DC stall motors on my layout, they are Hankscraft brand motors, not Tortoise machines Check the Circuitron/Tortoise website for their recommended voltages. If nine volts is what they recommend, you can add a resistor, or voltage regulator, to bring 12 volts down to 9 volts, or just use a "Wall Wart" plugin power supply that has a 9 volt DC output to power your Tortoise machines. Circuitron probably sells such a device specifically to power their Tortoise machines.
> 
> Traction Fan


Thanks for the info !!!!!


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## zeethtrains (Jan 2, 2016)

flyboy2610 said:


> Tortoise will work with 12 volts.


Thank You !!


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