# The Economy: Build or Buy



## aircooled (Jan 28, 2013)

Yesterday, I walked into my LHS, and heard the owner having a “warm” discussion with a vendor about supplying him with Chinese made stuff. One comment was “I have nothing against Chinese people, but I don’t have any shopping at my store. Why should I help their economy?” Another of his comments really got me to thinking, especially in light of what happened next. That comment was along the lines of “Buying Chinese, ultimately, I’m helping put some American out of work.”

Moments later another employee was helping me look for some detail parts. As we looked, he said I should probably make it myself instead of paying the outrageous price they have to charge. “The mfg’s charge so much that people make it instead of buy it. Then the product doesn’t sell, and the mfg stops making it.” Obviously, he felt the mfg’s were pricing themselves out of the market.

All of this got me to thinking. I know many, including me, take pride in re-purposing stuff for use in our hobby. Part of that pride comes from knowing we saved a few bucks. (Part of it comes from feeling clever!  )

But how far is too far? Of course if we could all “Buy American” when/where ever possible, that would help America's economy. But should we be less frugal with our hobby $$$, for the sake of the economy? Should we be less creative & buy instead of build, if it could help the American economy? 

What thinkth ye?


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## dablaze (Apr 17, 2012)

I buy American whenever I possibly can, even if its more expensive. Have only ever had one non American vehicle (because it was the only choice for that race class) I ride a Harley, I don't buy throw away tools. I believe that manufacturing has costs the end user does not realize and that inventory costs too. So I pay extra. I will shop for a deal, yes, but I believe in purchasing something that lasts if I spend bucks on it. When I was a teenager, I must have bought at least a half dozen sets of brake line benders and cutters at the cheapest price possible. for maybe 1/2 of the price of those 6, I now have a snapon that has lasted me 10 years. (Snap on gives you the country of origin in every description)

...and I dont even live in the USA!

Craig


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## dannyrandomstate (Jan 1, 2012)

I can see both sides here. Even though it has nothing to do with trains I avoid Wally World at all costs. My view on not buying foreign stuff is this. The items are purchased way before it hits the shelves. Sure you could bypass that widget that was not made in the USA. But the money has already been exchnged. The don't buy Chinese or whatever in theory is a good idea. But in order to affect the the pockets of those producing/selling those widgets would take more than just a few people not buying it. Maybe millions. I dunno. If we as a country could bring back even a percentage of what we have outsourced I feel that would be a good start to get us out of the rut we are in. I try to buy local/American any time I can.


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## THE TYCO MAN (Aug 23, 2011)

I try to buy American stuff and build stuff from nothing as my finances won't allow any more additions to my collection.


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## aircooled (Jan 28, 2013)

dannyrandomstate said:


> I can see both sides here.....
> The don't buy Chinese or whatever in theory is a good idea. But in order to affect the the pockets of those producing/selling those widgets would take more than just a few people not buying it. Maybe millions. I dunno. If we as a country could bring back even a percentage of what we have outsourced I feel that would be a good start to get us out of the rut we are in. I try to buy local/American any time I can.


And the millions start with just a few. I appreciate both sides too. And my personal economy is way more,,, well, personal, than the overall economy. And I understand that the actions of an individual will have no impact on the "big picture". But for me, it comes down to that saying:

"Think globally, Act locally".


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Totally agree, BUY AMERICAN. Atlas Model Rail Co. is learning the hard way. They took their manufacturing to China. The first manufacture closed his doors and their current manufacture has difficulty in keeping employees, meeting deadlines and producing quality items.


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## broox (Apr 13, 2012)

Buy American :thumbsdown:

Buy Australian! :thumbsup:


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## soccercoach (Apr 26, 2012)

Buy American here also. The giant container ships loaded with foreign stuff have saved the railroads. Now the containers ships full of foreign stuff dump millions tons of soot from smoke, the containers make a fortune for the railroads, and Americans out of mfg. jobs. The jobs come back, the ships docked and railroads on welfare. And the container terminal workers on welfare. Look at a BNSF container train, if it stopped?


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

I buy used...that way my money stays here.:thumbsup:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Not talking about trains here (I try to buy used and old, that's sort of buying american), I try to buy local to support the local buissness. I try to buy american whenever possible. I did buy a Hyundai recently, it was assembled in the us. It was just a better well thought out car. What I'm getting around to is that I try to buy quality goods . If I can't find it usa made I will buy from others. Hopefully the good old us of a will step up and offer goods that I want. I believe that's what hapened in the auto industry we forgot about the quality and fell behind to compeditors. I only bought american cars and trucks before the Hyundai, it actually was a hard choice for me. My last chevy fell apart and had a ton of problems, some which the
Company knew about but never fixed. I would bring it to my auto shop to hear " yea they need a recall on that " or " these trucks are know for this".. anyone know where the remakes of old lionel parts are made?


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## Davidfd85 (Jul 4, 2011)

Ok old story ( for me anyway ) and somebody will not like it I'm sure. Early 80's I was Asst manager for the parts dept of a Toyota dealership. There was an import limit on "complete" pickup trucks. Well how they would get around it is this. They would import the limit then inport "boat loads" of cab and chassis. They had built a plant just for PU beds in San Degio, CA. So off the boat into the plant, put on american built beds back on boat, train or trucks and out across the country going way way over the import limits. "LEGALLY" Now at dealership we always had to ask which bed they had or go look. It was easy to tell from a distance, just look at the paint job. The cab and bed slick as glass, Japan. Cab slick, bed looked like a damm gravel road, american bed. Sorry but their work was way way better than ours. 
But myself I do buy made in america until I have no other choice. And I still remember the news stories about it too, $64 worth of any one made in america item can equal 100 or more jobs in the US. I think it is worth it.


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## blackz28 (Jan 6, 2013)

I bought a can opener that was made in the USA. Holy crap !!!!!! I could destroy the fenders in my car with how tough it is built !!!! I'm gonna pass it down to my kid lol
And a side note. Kinex toy company realized that china is costing more then USA manufacturing so they are moving production back to Philly


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## ganerd (Mar 21, 2013)

I try to buy both economically yet responsibly. So, I will buy anything but Bachmann (Kader). As Kader has had a long history of worker abuses and unethical treatment. 

The Kader Toy Factory used child laborers as young as 13 (ref: http://www.nfpa.org/publicJournalDetail.asp?categoryID=2157&itemID=50572&src=NFPAJournal ). Since they were poor children, and of an age to crave stuffed toys such as Disney, Simpsons, and Sesame Street, etc. which they made. Whether it was desire to have toys or to supplement their substandard wages, they stole toys they made. According to The New York Times, the guards reported the fire-exit doors had been locked by Kader, to prevent these children from pilfering (ref: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/16/w...han-200-die-in-thailand-toy-factory-fire.html ) The single exist left to escape caused mass panic and trampling. Beyond Sweatshops reported as a result of these closed exits, 52 workers were trampled to death. (ref: http://books.google.com/books?id=g6...K#v=onepage&q="kader toy factory" sex&f=false)

Recent documentary, Santa's Workshop - Inside China’s Slave Labour Toy Factories, interviewed Saranya Pohiran, a female, disabled Kader Toy Disaster survivor who had to jump from the building due to the doors being locked. “The fire broke out at night when everyone was leaving. When the smoke started, everyone ran and trampled one other, because they could not get out through the doors. I could not see the ground, but I thought, I have to jump if I am going to survive. One of my friends was pregnant. She could not get out and was buried in the flames. If the factory had had escape ladders and good fire alarms – this tragedy would not have happened” (ref: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/santas-workshop/)

In a Case Study: The Kader Toy Factory Fire, shows that this fire was not the first problem Kader had in that factory; “The Kader Industrial (Thailand) Co. Ltd. was first registered on 27 January 1989, but the company’s license was suspended on 21 November 1989, after a fire on 16 August 1989 destroyed the new plant. This fire was attributed to the ignition of polyester fabric used in the manufacture of dolls in a spinning machine. After the plant was rebuilt, the Ministry of Industry allowed it to reopen on 4 July 1990. Between the time the factory reopened and the May 1993 disaster, the facility experienced several other, smaller fires. One of them, which occurred earlier on February the same year, did considerable damage to Building Three, which was still being repaired at the time of the disaster of May 1993. The February fire occurred late at night in a storage area and involved polyester and cotton materials. Several days after this blaze a labour inspector visited the site and issued a warning that pointed out the plant’s need for safety officers, safety equipment and an emergency plan.” (Ref: http://www.ilo.org/safework_bookshelf/english?content&nd=857170498 )

Learning nothing from their numerous earlier almost continuous fires, from their short four year history; as of the May 1983 disaster, “considered the worst industrial factory fire in history, when 188 workers were killed and over 500 injured on 10 May 1993. Locked exit doors, improper designed and an almost complete absence of safety equipment caused the high death rate. Many of the survivors suffered not just from burns, but broken bones and multiple fractures sustained after having to jump from the second, third and four floors of the factory to escape the fire. In some cases these workers suffered permanent injuries leading to paralysis. Prior to the fire, work conditions at the factory were like that in much of Thailand; minimum wages were the norm, overtime was compulsory, work often extended late into the evening and amenities were lacking.” (Ref: http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article3962) Finally, Kader's partner in Thailand, Charoen Pokphand (CP) “agreed to a one-off payment to family members of 200,000 baht (US$8,000) for each worker killed and set aside monies for the education costs of children orphaned by the fire.” Concerning the Kader plant in Thailand, it goes on to say “Yet, 10 years later there has been virtually no change in health and safety standards in Thailand (in some measures they have worsened since 1993)”

Comparison’s to other industrial disasters: In their comparison with other disasters, The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), “It wasn’t the garment industry this time, but it bore a close resemblance. A workforce of mostly women and girls, some as young as 13, made toys for American companies that included Fisher-Price, Hasbro, Kenner, and others, according to The New York Times. There were significant fuel loads in the form of fabric, plastics, and stuffing materials. There were no sprinkler systems, alarms didn’t function properly, and the exits were woefully inadequate. The authors of the NFPA fire investigation report on the incident trace a clear line back to 1911. "In terms of analyzing the Kader fire, a direct comparison with the Triangle fire provides a useful benchmark," they write. "Topics that deserve mention in terms of similarities include the initial fuel package, extent of horizontal and vertical fire separations, fixed fire protection systems, arrangement of exits, and fire safety training … Inadequate exit arrangements was perhaps the most significant factor in the high loss of life at both the Kader fire and the Triangle fire." “Use of the Life Safety Code,” they go on to say, "would have dramatically reduced the loss of life." (ref: http://www.nfpa.org/publicJournalDetail.asp?categoryID=2157&itemID=50572&src=NFPAJournal)

Abuses are certainly not exclusive to their Thailand plant, concerning a plant Kader set up a factory in Shekou, Guangdong, China in the mid-1980s. A 1993 [[[ACFTU]]] survey identified Kader maintaining abysmal working conditions, was one of the province’s harshest employers; daily wages were 52 to 64 cents, less than half the official minimum wage. All-China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) is the Chinese own people, that judge them so harshly. (REF: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/China's+toy+industry+tinderbox.-a016423664 ) 

Ten years later: In an article, Thai Toy Factory Fire: 10 years after the world’s worst industrial inferno, “What has been the balance sheet of the last 10 years? Far from improving, a decade later the conditions facing workers in Thailand and other Asian countries have significantly worsened. … The Thai legal system has finally rendered its verdict on the Kader fire. Immediately after the blaze, one of the factory workers was made the scapegoat. Police arrested Viroj Yusak, alleging that he had caused the fire by carelessly discarding a cigarette. A court in Nakhom Pathom last month sentenced him to 10 years jail while acquitting 14 executives, including the factory’s managing director, an engineer and a shareholder, of all charges.” The only legal recognition of Kader Industrial’s culpability was a measly fine of 520,000 baht ($US12,300). (ref: http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2003/05/kade-m16.html)

They are often the target of civil rights groups, so other cases surely exist. However, since they are primary behind China’s secretive cloak, as well corporate secrecy, cases and documentations have been hard to locate.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

5-year-old Chinese girl training for a future spot on the Olympic gymnastics team...

...enough said...


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## sanepilot (Mar 11, 2012)

*buy american*

Hey,fellas.. I believe I`ve heard this discussion before.I went to buy a new chevy luv a few years back. I priced it and told the salesman I`d pick it up in a few weeks. During that time They had a sale,I told the better half it might be cheaper.So I went over. Guess what,they`d raised the price #1000.00 for the sale. I questioned the salesman and he said tough whatever[not printable for me]. I told him I`d go buy a toyota. He said and I quote" At least buy american" My words was "you tell me what vehicle is 100% american and I`ll pay you cash money[your price]right now." Needless to say,he hung his head and said "go have a nice day" 
********************
Now,my question is: What in the world or Good ole usa is 100% made
******** ********************
in america today. Give me a list so I can start buying. The american
******** 
manufacturing folks are buying foreign parts and labeling them made in the USA.

Not all overseas stuff is junk. You can order good stuff from a company overseas and from the same company order the same stuff in a cheaper form.

You get what you pay for.Now all this being said,I`ll really stir up things.Don`t be too hard on me guys. Look at the american workers wages,is there any sensible reason why they are so high.I`ve worked much of my life for low wages yet I`ve paid the same price that these big wages caused. 

We,as a nation,have sold ourselves into this mess.We can blame no one but ourselves for the economy.Like I`ve heard"what is in it for me". The almighty dollar rules the world.

Like it or leave it..Don`t mean to insult anyone only I get sick of hearing "buy american"

Have a good evening and watch out for uncle,he`s watching us..regards,Everett


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## sanepilot (Mar 11, 2012)

*sick*

Hey,Shay--I`d like to have him alone for about 10 minutes,wouldn`t you.

rehards,Everett


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ganerd, wow, I would say tell us how you really feel but you allready did! I Agree to a point. Did you know these very conditions applied to the good old USA once upon a time. There were numerous fires like these in the past that spurned the creation of fire codes and the like. In fact the Nfpa is an off shot of these continuing safe guards. Other countries are far behind us in the safety of workers. They may need time to overcome this. As for buying there products, I Iook at it both ways. Yeah, we don't want to condone this behavior but the flip side is that the wages paid helps families eat and survive. It's not a perfect world and I don't have the right answers. Sometimes the line between black and white is gray, and sometimes that's a good thing.


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## MBlair (Mar 19, 2013)

Work union, Buy american.
I want to go on a long rant about this, but i dont have the attention span for it.
And being the father of a 3 year old (only son). that picture bothers me.

Ive edited this 3 times now and still didnt get what i wanted to say out. As far as build or buy... Build or buy. Its a hobby. if you want to build dont worry about the jobs and the economy, its your stress relief. dont stress about it. If you want to buy, go for it, but buy american. (or canadian, or australian. wherever your from.) Support your brothers, or neighbors.


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## D1566 (Jun 8, 2012)

So what happens if you cannot buy what you want from where you want to buy it (and do not have the time, skillset or inclination to make it yourself)? Do without?


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## MBlair (Mar 19, 2013)

Your right, sometimes you cant get what you need. and im not creative by any means. so im not much into building anything. i will do what i can to support local business, or atleast keep it in america. if i cant, ill find another idea that will. Just me though.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I try to buy American, and locally when possible but in this day and age I don't think it's always possible. Gone are the days of look for the union label. I can't think of any textile company that has garments completely made in the USA. Even ll bean has converted, I still think there duck boots are 100 percent USA made. I would also be hard pressed to find any electronics made here, anyone know of a completely home made cell phone or TV? That's Ok to me because the cell towers and stores still employ local workers. It's something. How a bout buying your kid that iconic radio flyer wagon that you had as a child? You can buy it but it's not made here! If you want one made in the USA, you'll have to refinish the old rust bucket at the flea market( mine actually came out nice all though I don't know if the paint was manufactured here!). At the beginning of this thread I was talking about my pick up truck, lots of problems and gmc was offering great incentives towards a new one. I bit and have a great truck made right here it the good old U S of,.... Mexico!?!? What, I thought I was buying American! At least it's the right ccontinent. I try to support our local workers but sometimes it's not possible. At least some American workers are employed by me buying my truck. Who would have thought that a home brand like gmc/ Chevrolet, toted as American built was made in Mexico? I don't want to see where the parts came from. At least my hyundai was assembled here.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

My Chevy Silverado was "built" in Fort Wayne Indiana, more than likely assembled rather than "built" from parts made globally. My buddy's GMC Sierra, same year, same truck but with different trim, was built in Mexico. Go figure.
90%+ of power tools come from China or Tiawan, the better made ones come from Tiawan.hwell:
I don't know of any electronic equipment made in the USA,maybe there's some.
Gone is Brown & Sharpe, Bridgeport and all the other machine shop tool manufacturers.
Getting my wife a new car, SHHHHH it's a surprise! Ford Fusion, built in Mexico. This is going to hurt me as a dyed in the wool Chevy guy but that Fusion beat Accords, Nissans, etc and even [gulp] new Chevy's. Believe me, she drove them all, her and my daughter aka Thelma and Louise have been on a mission the past month and kept going back to the Ford.


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## wingnut163 (Jan 3, 2013)

my chevy colorado was built in tiawan. i had two chevy caravels that was built in ohio so i got the colorado,,, ha ha, tiawan.

oh well.

6% of my harley (electronics) comes from over seas.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

sanepilot said:


> Hey,Shay--I`d like to have him alone for about 10 minutes,wouldn`t you.
> 
> rehards,Everett


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Ross track & switches built/manufactured in the good ole USA. :thumbsup:


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I think I read most of this item but pardon me if I say it twice! 
There is far more than we often think of when we say buy American. We often see the high wages blamed from one side. The other side might answer that the real cause is the upper crust making billions and banking it offshore. Both of theose hurt. It also hurts when the disign and work is bad. 
But the story not often mentioned is just reality. We don't have the natural resouces we had a hundred years ago! The first oil came from less than a hundred feet down in Pennsvania. Is there still PA crude being pumped and if it is, how far down is it being found. There used to be an oil derrick on every flat spot in Oklahoma and Texas. They are gone. How much copper is left? Where are the lead and zinc mines that made the Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma area busy? Got some iron ore and coal left but what does it take to get it out? 

Sorry folks, but the US is past it's prime and it is going to take more than effort to bring it back to what we remember. You can change your ways and let the bald eagles come back but it doesn't work that way with a lot of the natural things we have used up.


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## Carl (Feb 19, 2012)

Micro-Train, for N-Scalers is made in Oregon and a few other lines. One major producer, not Atlas, is backing away for N-Scale for the HO sales (yes, N-Scales are way down and HO has improved its dominance). The economy is slowly moving forward. Until the World Nation's debts are resolved, investment is going to stay on the sideline.


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

*War of economics...YEARS!!*

Yeah Guys....there's a War out there in the Economics of Cheap Industry....PLASTICS....the Big Three of Model Railroading have invested heavily into Chinese Production with disastrous results....Factory fires, Union Strikes, Sweat Shop Uncovering, price hikes "YIKES"...BACKORDERS!! I know I won't live to see a turn around.. but its about time the US...as in "us" gets off this Cheap labor kick and bring jobs back to our soil...I've been beating my gums about "American Made" but its been years since any Model RR stuff was produced in this country....BRING IT HOME!!! Thank You!!


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## Steve S (Jan 7, 2012)

big ed said:


> Ross track & switches built/manufactured in the good ole USA. :thumbsup:


So is MicroEngineering. 





Aircooled said:


> One comment was “I have nothing against Chinese people, but I don’t have any shopping at my store. Why should I help their economy?”


This doesn't make any sense to me. He thinks a Chinese person shopping in his store would help the Chinese economy? 


As for "Buy American", how many threads have we seen when the primary concern of the poster is to find something CHEAP. Whenever MicroEngineering track is mentioned, everyone always says "That's too expensive."

Steve S


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Pfunmo said:


> I think I read most of this item but pardon me if I say it twice!
> There is far more than we often think of when we say buy American. We often see the high wages blamed from one side. The other side might answer that the real cause is the upper crust making billions and banking it offshore. Both of theose hurt. It also hurts when the disign and work is bad.
> But the story not often mentioned is just reality. We don't have the natural resouces we had a hundred years ago! The first oil came from less than a hundred feet down in Pennsvania. Is there still PA crude being pumped and if it is, how far down is it being found. There used to be an oil derrick on every flat spot in Oklahoma and Texas. They are gone. How much copper is left? Where are the lead and zinc mines that made the Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma area busy? Got some iron ore and coal left but what does it take to get it out?
> 
> Sorry folks, but the US is past it's prime and it is going to take more than effort to bring it back to what we remember. You can change your ways and let the bald eagles come back but it doesn't work that way with a lot of the natural things we have used up.




U.S. oil output is poised to surpass Saudi Arabia’s in the next decade, making the world’s biggest fuel consumer almost self-reliant and putting it on track to become a net exporter.

The U.S., whose crude imports have fallen 11 percent this year, is on track to produce the most oil since 1991, according to Energy Department data. In a year when Iran has threatened to halt Persian Gulf oil shipments, the growing output, coupled with a gas-production boom, may help insulate the nation from supply disruptions.

Saudi Arabia pumped @ 9.8 million barrels of oil a day last month, US was @ 6.7 million barrels a day in the week ended Nov. 2, according to the Energy Department.

The U.S. will pump 11.1 million barrels of oil a day in 2020 and 10.9 million in 2025, the IEA said. Those figures are 500,000 barrels a day and 100,000 barrels a day higher, respectively, than its forecasts for Saudi Arabia for those years. 

Around 2017, the U.S. will be the largest oil producer of the world, overtaking Saudi Arabia.

The US has the world's largest coal reserves with 491 billion short tons accounting for 27% of the world's total.

We still have plenty of natural resources which include, coal, copper, lead, molybdenum, phosphates, rare earth elements, uranium, bauxite, gold, iron, mercury, nickel, potash, silver, tungsten, zinc, petroleum, natural gas, & timber.

Don't count us out altogether yet.
It is the "system" WE must change!

First place to start is with China’s unfair trade practices!

I will stop here.


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