# Home Made PCB Circuit Boards



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I enjoy making circuits for model railroad usage, and in most cases do not need more than one or two PCB's .. I have no desire to resell any, just for my own purposes and curiosity ..

I have used most of the common methods previously, and would like to try a couple of more interesting methods ..

First, using a paint resist, and removing etchable area with a relatively low power laser ..

Second, creating a very small computer controlled milling machine to physically remove portions of the copper ...

I will post updates as they come, however I realize that this topic / thread will probably have little interest for most users on here ?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll be very interested in how you fare.  Does anyone commercially do either of those processes?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Commercially? not as far as I know ...
It's just that there is not much out there geared towards small [<5] quantity of one / two square inch PCB's .. 
I'm thinking [hopefully] that there may be an alternative by getting a PCB done in my basement without the wait of having someone else to do it, and mildly interested in makin a micro cnc mill ... some aluminum stock is already ordered from 80/20, along with small hardware


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There are many DIY PCB processes, any reason you are taking the road not traveled? FWIW, I'm addicted to double-sided boards and plated through holes, so I think I'll keep doing it my way.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

It's a combination of two reasons .. 
first, even a small order like 20 sq inches winds up being around $36US / $48CDN .. and quite likely I may only use one or two of the PCB's,,,

secondly, sometimes I get impatient, and don't want to wait two or three weeks to see a PCB ...

plus most of what I do is little stuff, and single sided works well enough in most cases ..

for you I imagine that it's the other side, larger quantities, smaller PCB and component sizes, and the need for a cosmetically attractive PCB for resale purposes ...all definitely understandable 

I have tried the laser & iron toner transfer methods, at best 'fair', but to date normally use a laser to print the PCB mylar film sheet, and then the normal expose / develop / etch / drill routines ..with applying the resist sheet myself rather than buying raw sheet with resist film already applied

Another reason that I am considering alternatives is that I still have maybe an eight inch thick stack of 20x30 blank PCB material


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's a lot of PCB material! 

You are right, most of my stuff is done with SMT nowadays, so the ability to increase density is key. Of course, I also want the smallest footprint I can make, so that dictates double-sided with quite a few feed-thru holes.

For some projects, I only use a few of the boards, but I have a number of things I have made that I just hand build as I need them.

This 1/2" x 1" board would have been difficult with thru-hole parts or one-sided, the three components and the connection pads take up most of the top.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

that's a decent render image ... part of the PCB editor package? or a separate ad-on?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's the 3D tool in DipTrace, as long as you have models of the parts, it's nice. Note that the opto-coupler didn't have a 3D model, so it doesn't appear.


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## johnfl68 (Feb 1, 2015)

Along these lines, I just heard about OSH Park:

https://oshpark.com/


> This is a community printed circuit board (PCB) order. We take designs from lots of people, put them all together on a panel and then order the panel from a fab.
> Since we're all splitting the panel setup cost, this lets us make circuit boards inexpensively.
> 
> 2 layer boards are $5 per square inch (with 3 copies of your board included in that price) and ship in under 12 calendar days from ordering.


I haven't tried yet, but seems like a decent price for small short run boards.



For larger boards and runs I have been using Advanced Circuits, always getting good quality work at a reasonable price. Plus they have there own free PCB Design software that I have used for a few boards now, that is pretty decent for free.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I like OSH Park, hadn't seen that one. That might be worth look as you can get more specialized boards, including 4-layer, and still cheap.

I've priced several runs at Advanced Circuits, I don't doubt they're good, but they have never been competitive.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the one that seems really cheap is allpcb.com , which does quotes from various firms, a quick online quote for 1"x1" double sided, silkscreen & mask ...qty 50 was $0.28 /ea, with qty 500 dropping to $0.11 /ea ...process time was three days, and included free shipping [ground, dhl was $25 extra /3 day] ..seems like they also offer assembly and component supply ..
I have never ordered from hem though ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I tried to order from them once, could never get the files right, they kept rejecting them.

I looked, but there is no option of shipping them free to the US, they keep adding shipping. When I get to the cheap shipping, suddenly the shipping time goes up to 15-30 days.

This is for 50 boards 27mm x 25mm.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

looks about right, around $0.30 /sq inch ... I get offered free ship [to Canada], via HK Post, or Singapore Post, with the same 15 - 30 delivery time, DHL delivery option was an extra $25 to me here, but with a 3 day ship time ..still seem not bad though, I haven't ordered, nor have I tried to upload any files to them .. I was quoted on the 1.6mm thick pcb material


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The .8mm or the 1.6mm was the same price. If I wanted a ton of boards, I'd probably consider it. However, I don't want to hand build a bunch of boards, my ordering is mostly for prototypes in much smaller quantities. When I produce something, I have the assembly house do the board order, they give me a better deal than I'd get doing them separately. They also panelize the design for efficiency through their pick-n-place machines.

I'm going to give OSH Park a try, $5 for three boards is a good deal, and they do have free shipping in the US. I have something that I need a few extras for now, so they get to impress me.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I ordered a couple of designs from OSH Park, they really are as cheap as they say. It was also very easy to specify the design, just the basic Gerber and drill files and they were happy. They have a great preview feature that allows you to do a check and make sure all the layers are proper, I've had the silkscreen mirrored on the back for a board because I didn't check off an option.

I tried two options, I did the "standard" .062 1oz copper one and another that was the .031 2oz copper. I'm curious how they'll come out. The price is sure right for prototypes. I did three of the one and six of the smaller board. This may be my new go-to prototype board house.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

that's really good for short run pricing ... especially with free shipping, what did they say for production lead time on these?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was surprised about the pricing as well. They say 12 calendar days until they ship, and shipping will probably take 2-3 days. I'm guessing they'll come in a first class envelope, only way I can imagine they could do it so cheap. They really do price by the sq/in, that's one of the things I wanted to test.

Another cool thing is you can have slots and custom shapes for the boards as well, apparently no extra charge. That's something I'll have to test next.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I uploaded an fifteen year old Eagle file of a CNC controller board just now, and pricing wasn't too bad, three copies of a fifteen square inch PCB for $75, some where around $100 Canadian or so .. pretty reasonable, and their software ran the BRD file very quickly, and really nice images of the various layers .. 
They look like a good alternative for short runs anyways ..and they noted on one page that larger runs of 150 square inches and up brought the price down to around a dollar per square inch ..still decent for US made, and quicker shipping than out of China or where ever ..
I'm still going to proceed with the laser and mill projects, extrusions are already ordered and paid for, plus I still have a couple of hundred pounds of PCB material that I can't bring myself to throw out


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Given that you get three boards for the $5 sq/in, that's really good, and the free shipping makes it SUPER good. 

I'll be using these guys for my first prototypes, they ship as fast as Bay Circuits and give me more fabrication choices. Their pricing is about the same as Bay Circuits, but I can order in very small increments and not waste money on a prototype that I discover I screwed up on and have to run it again.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

and you only have to wait a couple of weeks to find out if there is an 'oops' ..
kinda like buying a lottery ticket


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, most of my projects are not so pressing that a couple weeks is a big deal. I also like the fact that any OOPS costs me about the price of a Big Mac.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

an update to the first part of my pcb making project, using a laser to remove black paint from the pcb surface ... was a fail, I have a 150 and 250mw red visible lasers, the 250mw etches wood nicely, cuts foam [dark colors] .. but did basically nothing to remove paint ...I also have a 500mw UV laser, and it did remove most of the paint, but even at low speeds did not remove enough to leave an etchable surface ..I did some reading, and apparantly 1W is minimum, and two to five watt lasers are preferred ...cost seems to be two hundred and up for that power level, so I will not be persuing that option any further ..
but good news is that my aluminum extrusions and hardware showed up today to make a small cnc mill for mechanical removal of pcb copper by using what is termed isolation routing ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I should have a bunch of boards back today, I think I have my new PCB place. I love the fact that they have a complete design review with graphics of exactly what the boards will look like when you get them. It's real easy to spot screwups in their review process and go back and fix them.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

got enough parts in so that I can start assembling a small cnc router, 80-20 aluminum extrusions and hardware, shafts, bearings, lead screws from McMaster, plastic mounts from china, Mega328P controller with three onboard drivers, should keep me occupied for a few hours


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Pretty soon, you'll be competing with OSH Park!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

it' too wet outside to do much of anything, and another half inch forecast for tomorrow, so quite likely it will be mostly completed this weekend ..so far I'm into it for maybe around $150 or so .. wound up buying pretty much all parts, didn't reuse any thing out of the spare parts pile, most are too big for this little contraption


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Film at 11?  It'll be neat to see this etching a PCB.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Made some progress, mechanical assembly is complete, some bugs in the controller, one axis wasn't working properly, just buzzing, was in one of the final drive modules A4988, 
So ordered a pair off ebay, did some research, found a higher power replacement, ordered five of those from china ...probably a month to wait...

And then looked really close at the defective module, it's about 1" x 0.75", so needed the magnifier, and found a solder bridge, got that cleaned up and all three axis work now, feed not real fast wide open, about 600mm/min, but good enough for a 6" by 8" working area ...
Tomorrow I will see what I can find for some good 1/4" wood for a sacrificial table, and then level mill it, and figure out something for small work piece hold downs..


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

So you've bought most of the parts for a 3D printer. What do you use for software to drive the milling machine? Are you waiting for the ground to freeze to harvest? Thawing snow could make for knee deep mud.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

a 3d printer is probably similar, with an added channel for the squirter .. so far I have only tried GRBL, just one way communications, no feedback as far as I can tell ...
Rained again yesterday, need around five days in a row for swaths to dry, might wind up doing that after freeze up


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I look forward to seeing this unit strut it's stuff.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

here ya go .. one minute to cut 
It's a little pcb to silicon glue on top of Athearn motors to make it easier to solder wires and decoders to ..


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Very impressive. Now a little Bill of materials and building info would help. This seems to be useful for more than just PC boards.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good stuff, that's one way to skin the cat!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Lemonhawk said:


> Very impressive. Now a little Bill of materials and building info would help. This seems to be useful for more than just PC boards.


aluminum extrusions and hardware from 80-20, shafts, lead screws, linear bearings, from Mcmaster Carr, plastic stepper mounts and steady bearing mounts off of Alibaba, along with Arduino based controller, three 17 size steppers from eBay, free GRBL transfer software ..
an okay hobby project, some limitations, no feedback, either encoders or limit / home switches, no spindle relay provision, really basic setup, not even any provision for hand wheels on the steppers .. mine is about 8 1/2" by 5 1/2" effective working area or so ...assembled weight is about 16 or 17 lbs I think..roughly about two inch on the Z axis .. no provision for hold current on movement stop


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

In other words, a perfectly serviceable hobby operation, but you wouldn't put it on a production floor.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> In other words, a perfectly serviceable hobby operation, but you wouldn't put it on a production floor.


pretty much 
But the overall cost is very low, and I enjoyed figuring out how to make something this small work .. it takes me longer to adjust an existing design to be compatible with isolation routing than it does to actually route the board itself ..
Now to think of more uses for it .  .

Also, for anyone thinking of doing a similar cnc mini mill, an easier solution may be eBay or Alibaba for a 'complete' non assembled kit, rather than different suppliers such as I did ..


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I'm impressed with how you plugged it all together and made it work! I think it still looks like most of a 3D printer, you just don't need as much z axis motion. But it does give me some ideas. You can also drill the thru holes in the pc board with this, if you can re-register it after replacing the milling bit with a drill bit.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Lemonhawk said:


> I'm impressed with how you plugged it all together and made it work! I think it still looks like most of a 3D printer, you just don't need as much z axis motion. But it does give me some ideas. You can also drill the thru holes in the pc board with this, if you can re-register it after replacing the milling bit with a drill bit.


this one has no feedback of any kind, or limit / home switches ..
registration is manual / visual only


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, I ordered some 'store bought' motor connection pcb's, the same as I was routing out in the video ...
fifty for seventeen dollars ...two days to make, just under three weeks to deliver [free]


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

tried that way back, still have quite a few sheets of double sided kicking around, as well as spray mask, and wash down mask ... but it's putzy and you can ruin some clothes pretty quickly ... pretty much decided on using eagle to produce gerbers and getting ALLPCB to do the boards .. bit of a wait, but really clean... [except for my occasional oops]

if i'm in a hurry, i use the mill to produce one or two quickly ..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I made a few PCB's many years ago, messy and really not that cost effective. I don't do anything that I can't wait a couple weeks for professional boards with solder mask and silk screen. Have a bare board with no markings or solder mask is so 1980's hobbyist.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

RadioShack used to sell those CB etching kits. Used a few myself way back when. They were cost effective for one-off's.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

MichaelE said:


> RadioShack used to sell those CB etching kits. Used a few myself way back when. They were cost effective for one-off's.


Back when you couldn't get factory PCB's made for peanuts, but not nowadays.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Back when you couldn't get factory PCB's made for peanuts, but not nowadays.


Who is your goto PCB maker? I have use Express Schematic and Express layout software AFAIK their software is theirs and not gerber plots or whatever is industry standard now a day
When I was in electronic school back in the day (gosh showing my age (hint just turned 75 years young today) I used those Radio Shack board kits for my senior project. Was fun to layout board on paper then transfer it to board then develop. Oh boy the fun (NOT!!) but best you could do.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have several places I get PCB's, for small size PCB samples and a quicker turn, I use OSHPark. For more volume I've used SEEED Studios, JLCPCB, OSPCB, and PCBWAY. The last three also do turnkey assembly that I've used as well.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i still remember using tape at two to one size for laying out schematics for shooting with the camera ...
some long nights there , lol


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

In the 1980's, I had a number of designs for 5x10 PCB's using discrete logic, they were all done with tape. I remember tracing things on the light table for hours! Each of those designs had weeks of work involved before we got a working PCB! Contrast that with today's design process, I draw the schematic, then draw the board outline and arrange the parts on the board. Route any layout critical traces and turn the auto router loose. For smaller boards, the whole process can be done an a few hours at most!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

yes, the software is so much better [although kind of pricey], and pcb are so much cheaper from asia that the 'old' ways are gathering mothballs ,,,, lol


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, actually, the software isn't all that pricey when you consider it in terms of 1980 dollars! When I was working in the aerospace industry, we had a whole drafting department that has PCB schematic capture and layout software that cost thousands of dollars. Contrast that with current pricing for contemporary PCB layout packages. For instance, the one I'm using, DipTrace, costs $995 for the unlimited package. That gives you unlimited size, layers, and component counts. Other versions are cheaper. I use the "Lite" version, none of my designs go over two layers or 500 pins.


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

I am a new member and have been reading thru your thread here.
I too dabble in low voltage "simple" circuitry but never got past just soildering components on bread board.
Seeing your etched engineered circuit boards are very interesting to me.
I got interested in making car alarms, sound generators, and amplifiers in High School for my car.
During that time, a relative became a electronics engineer for a PCB manifacture and was making Stereos after graduating from Devry, a electronics school.
They taught me enough to be dangerious... _giggle_
So I have a few crossing circuits and flashers I made and plan to use.









Anything to save from some expensive effects needed to add realism.
I'll be following, thank for sharing your side projects.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

the last piece of software that i actually bought was Protel99, lately i just use an older version of Eagle [the one that resides entirely on the hard drive], with an add on for 3d viewing ... works okay, don't use it much any longer ...
been spending a bit of time on AgOpenGps, which gives autonomous control and steering to farm equipment ; uses up the spare time fairly well ..
for my PCBoards i still use ALLPCB which gives cheap pcbs, and they do assembly as well, though i haven't tried that part of it yet .. mostly through hole stuff, i need an optivisor for SMT stuff nowadays ..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I do thru-hole stuff if it's intended for hobbyist hand assembly as a rule. I do have some SMT designs that are hand assembly where size is important. However, my commercial products are mostly SMT, you can't get them small enough for thru-hole designs.
For instance, my Super-Chuffer would never fit in many locomotives if it were thru-hole! At .8" x 1.0", it's far too small for thru-hole design given the component count.
















Another SMT design that I do hand assemble (not enough volume to justify a production run) is my motion sensor board.

















An example of a typical thru-hole design is my DZ-1008 Relay Replacement board. This was intended to be offered as a kit of parts, so I tried to make the assembly easy for the average hobbyist.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i did a quick lookup on intrepid sourcing and they are super expensive ..not in my league, sorry ..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

wvgca said:


> i did a quick lookup on intrepid sourcing and they are super expensive ..not in my league, sorry ..


Yep, they're ridiculous, I suspect we have a spammer.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

a spammer ?? yipeee!! a good way to occupy my time as i wait for spring ....
by the way, the last full SMT design i did was the merg based decoders [ my photo right now] that i had ten made, used maybe half of them ...
i don't do much SMT nowadays, need help for my eyes when putting them together, never did make a reflow oven, just use the hot air blast from my rework station [that's about all it gets used for], i have other stations that are set up better for general through hole assembly work ..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use my hot air tool mostly for heatshrink, works great.  I do occasionally use it for fine pitch SMT part removal and replacement if I have to do that.

I have a ring-light magnifier that works well for SMT work. I also limit my SMT designs to 0603 size components or larger, and the pitch on parts to .95mm or wider. I can deal with those with my needle-point iron, so that works out OK.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

on SMT removal i just use a pair of nail clippers or small jawed pliers to cut the leads, and wipe off after with a regular tip ... for installation i use solder paste [don't know what brand, ebay special] and the hot air nozzle ..
a yes the optivisor gets used now, five years ago i didn't really need it, but time marches on, lol
to do heatshrink i still use a lighter, still got one close and handy at all times


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For removal if I can get to the leads, I do the same thing with a pair of side cutters with a needle point tip. I was never that successful with the solder paste, I just use a little flux on the leads of the part and hold it in place and hit it with the hot air.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

solder paste doesn't have a very long shelf life , but i found a way to -some what- extend this, providing it hasn't dried out too badly ... using a small amount of acetone, and then leaving it for at least a couple of hours ...
so far it's worked well, no worries with bargain brand solder paste, just thin a little in most cases ..


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That was my primary issue with it as well, limited shelf life.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i have extended it as much as three years by thinning it with ordinary acetone .. i used to use the acetone for wiping off home made [read etched] pcbs..


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