# Thoughts on repowering a Mantua loco



## TiCoyote (Dec 11, 2018)

I have 2 Mantua steam locos. A 4-6-2 and a 2-8-2. I got them both from eBay. They both have open-frame motors. The 4-6-2 appears never to have been used, but the 2-8-2 looks like it has seen some action. The 4-6-2 runs well at high speeds, but it really won't run at a low speed. The 2-8-2 runs a high speed, but doesn't go all that fast. It won't run at a low speed either. They both seem to draw a lot of power. Both operate smoothly and quietly. 

I'd like to get them both to have faster high speeds and slower low speeds. 

Here are some options: 
1. Live with it. This is how these trains operate. 
Pros: zero work, zero cost, zero risk to damaging the train
Cons: zero improvement

2. Get a better and more powerful transformer. 
Pros: little work, moderate cost, zero risk
Cons: may only lead to moderate improvement

3. Purchase and install the can motor kit from NWSL. Includes the motor new worm gear and new drive gear. 
Pros: definitive way to modernize the loco, maybe a fun project
Cons: expensive, requires specialized tools, what if I can't install or re-assemble the train? what if I break something? 

4. Remove the motor, remove the worm gear from the motor, purchase a motor online, (I've read that Canon EN22 works well), install the original worm gear on the new motor, install the motor in the mount (maybe with zip ties or glue)
Pros: I don't have to remove the wheels from the axles, slightly less expensive than option 3, doesn't require special tools, fun project
Cons: getting the motor positioned in exactly the right spot could be pretty tricky, what if I break or can't remove the worm gear? sourcing the motor could be a PITA. 

5. Keep the open-frame motor, but replace the magnet with a neodymium rare-earth magnet. 
Pros: inexpensive, less work than options 3 or 4, requires little modification
Cons: the magnet is riveted in place, removing it may be destructive, will I keep asking myself "but if if I had removed the motor???" 

I appreciate thoughts, experiences, and opinions.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

6. Sell them to me, use money for a new engine


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

TI Coyote, Dennis has offered you a good option. Lol. 
What you are really evaluating is how you want to spend your modeling time. We all have a finite amount of it and we should use it in a way that we derive the most joy out of that time. 

The answer comes from you and you only. 
I can identify with the trials and tribulations of working on old steamers. I collect old PennLine locos. One thing I do before undertaking any repair job is to buy a non- running junker or parts lot of the same model from eBay. That way if I break something I have a replacement right there. 
But you seem to have some trepidation about tearing into these babies. 

If that’s true, then don’t. No one should feel duty bound to have to perform every single task inherent to model railroading. 
Maybe you just keep them like they are as collectors items. Maybe get some newer models that don’t require such extensive work. 

And sometimes you just have to jump in and get your feet wet. Buy a junker of one, or both of those and tear them down to the last rivet. That’s really the only way to learn. 
Have fun and happy modeling. 
Dan


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## TiCoyote (Dec 11, 2018)

I'm actually also thinking about buying a cheap one on eBay, and trying these different methods to see how much work everything entails, and how successful each process it. Having spare parts is a good point.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Good advice*



TiCoyote said:


> I'm actually also thinking about buying a cheap one on eBay, and trying these different methods to see how much work everything entails, and how successful each process it. Having spare parts is a good point.


TiCoyote:

Kudos to prrfan for his excellent advice! :appl: He's dead right that time is as valuable as money, and you are the one to decide how much of either you want to spend.
Your last post sounds like you want to try and start with a small rebuild. Both are excellent Ideas, provided you think you may enjoy the rebuild. 

Three of the main reasons those old locos are no good at slow speeds are the three pole motors, (new models have five poles), the gear ratios, (Their original gearing is often not designed with slow speed in mind.) and the lack of flywheels. (A flywheel helps smooth out motor rotation.) Short of replacement of the motor and gears, with the NWSL kit, and maybe adding one of their flywheels, you won't be able to do a huge amount of improvement in slow speed performance. Still, any improvement might be worth trying, that's up to you.

Gears can be taken off the shaft with a gear puller. Micro Mark sells them www.micromarktools.com Northwest short line may sell them too. 

Rare earth magnets don't have to be expensive. I bought several small sizes from Home Depot and they were not expensive at all. Rivets (like the one holding the magnet) can be drilled out, or cut off with a Dremel tool. You only have to remove the head of the rivet. The rest of it can be pulled or punched out. Sometimes they almost fall out, or at least can be pulled easily with pliers.

Even if you do manage to do something terminal to one of your locos, (not likely) then what have you really lost? The e-bay price probably wasn't all that much. You invested some of your time, that's true. However, you learned something in the process, and that's worth a lot. The dead loco can always be used as a static display model too.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Option 6 -- convert to DCC. I have an 0-4-0 Tyco/Mantua from the 70's with the original motor in it, also an ebay purchase. I dropped in a DCC decoder and that old motor will now crawl along the track. The only issue I had was the limited electrical contact of only four wheels on the track, so last weekend I added Intermountain metal wheels and some wipers to the tender trucks, and now I can even crawl through my dead-frog turnouts.


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## TiCoyote (Dec 11, 2018)

I bought another 4-6-2 and another 2-8-2. I'm going to try the new magnet approach and see what happens!


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i would try super magnets first, mainly because i've got them laying around here , lol
they do help quite a bit, in most cases


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## TiCoyote (Dec 11, 2018)

I added a stack of 4 small magnets to the back of the magnet in the 2-8-2. I literally just placed them there, no other modification. The train runs much faster, and the low speed is a little slower.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Good for you! Now maybe make a good thing better?*



TiCoyote said:


> I added a stack of 4 small magnets to the back of the magnet in the 2-8-2. I literally just placed them there, no other modification. The train runs much faster, and the low speed is a little slower.


TiCoyote;

I'm happy for you, your magnet trick worked well. If you want, you might try removing the moror's original square magnet, and replacing it with a stack of super magnets. The iron plates at the top and bottom of the square magnet carry the magnetic field to the area directly above and below the rotating communtator of the motor. This will make the magnetic attraction stronger, and may further improve the loco's performance. It would be worth trying, but two things to consider. First mark the square magnet and frame before you remove it, so that you can re-install it in the same orientation that it was originally. Installing it upside down will make the loco run backward when every other one runs forward. 
Second, keep the square magnet where you can find it, just in case you do need to put it back in. I doubt you will want to, since I think the motor will run at least as well as it does with the magnets just stuck to the back, and quite possibly, better.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## TiCoyote (Dec 11, 2018)

I removed the original and placed the 4 super magnets in its place. This led to further improvement. There is a gap between the top magnet and the top iron plate. I imagine if I fill in that gap with a steel washer, or I find a magnet that fits better and touches both plates, I would see further improvement still. 

I found I can also put magnets directly above the motor and get a similar result. I bet if I could but one above it and one below it, I would really be cooking, but there is no room below. 

I purchased a 2-8-2, and when I opened it up, it seems that someone had already re-powered it with this: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/yardbird-d8130-motor-fly-mantua-tyco-110520103

It's a Yardbird can motor with a big brass worm gear that also functions as a flywheel. Although it does operate with lower voltage, and it will run at a lower speed, it's not ideal. It's noisy, and at low speeds it does a stop-start-stop-start thing. The headlight seems to flash as it stops and starts.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Glad to see the magnets did the trick. 

I don't have anything to suggest regarding the yardbirds motor. When it comes to old locos like these the amount of power they draw is relatively inconsequential to me when compared to smoothness of starting and acceleration, low speed movement, etc. A powerful 9used) transformer is a relatively low-cost investment and I'd rather have a loco that draws heavy but works right.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Slim magnets and electrical pickup*



TiCoyote said:


> I removed the original and placed the 4 super magnets in its place. This led to further improvement. There is a gap between the top magnet and the top iron plate. I imagine if I fill in that gap with a steel washer, or I find a magnet that fits better and touches both plates, I would see further improvement still.
> 
> I found I can also put magnets directly above the motor and get a similar result. I bet if I could but one above it and one below it, I would really be cooking, but there is no room below.
> 
> ...


 TiCoyote;

I have rare earth super magnets the size shown in your photos. I also have some about 1/2 that size. I'm not sure where I bought them, but I think it may have been Home Depot. If you can find some, you could either use one to fill in the remaining gap, or install a stack of them to replace the super magnets you have now. Because they're thinner, you could fit more of them into the frame. 
If you can't find thinner magnets, then filling the gap with steel is a good second best.

Since both the motor, and the headlight, go on-off-on-off, then the problem is likely something that both motors, and lights, have in common, namely electricity.

Either the power path from the rails up to the motor and light, is opening up, from some sort of loose connection; or that same path is short circuiting intermittently. I think the open circuit is more likely than the short circuit, but either is possible.

Assuming the track is clean enough that other locos behave normally on that same bit of track, then the first thing to check (you probably already have) is the the wheels of this balky locomotive. If you have cleaned the wheels the next item would be the wipers, then any wiring or frame attachments, and finally power at the motor terminals. If this loco picks up power from one rail via the tender, a common poor connection is the spring silver wire that may be located under the drawbar. If your loco is set up this way, add a soldered wire connection to duplicate the connection between loco and tender. The soldered wire is much more reliable. Maybe you loco already has such a wire. If it does, then that, and the tender's wheels and wipers, would be two more things to check.

A test you might try is to disconnect the wires from both motor terminals, and connect one of those snap-on battery harness things, and a 9 volt battery to the motor terminals. If the motor, and light, both stay running steadily then you have eliminated things like mechanical binds, and know for certain that there is an electrical fault between the wheels and the motor leads. Use an ohm meter to "divide and conquer" the problem by checking how steady the connections are at each section of the overall power path. 

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Rabman (May 30, 2018)

TiCoyote said:


> I removed the original and placed the 4 super magnets in its place. This led to further improvement. There is a gap between the top magnet and the top iron plate. I imagine if I fill in that gap with a steel washer, or I find a magnet that fits better and touches both plates, I would see further improvement still.
> 
> I found I can also put magnets directly above the motor and get a similar result. I bet if I could but one above it and one below it, I would really be cooking, but there is no room below.
> 
> ...


Wondering if you have any photos on your magnet replacement? The yardbird motor looks interesting. 

Here is the 2-8-2 I just built. Got the unbuilt one from eBay. Still need to finish painting it and putting on some trim items. Put a Decoder in it as well.


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