# Back to the Basics.........



## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Hello everyone, Most of the older members in N scale know me here and my layout. My age and eyes are catching up with me. After 45 years of modeling N scale I am contemplating making the plunge back into HO scale. The reasons are many but I wont go into here. I did post some on my layout thread.
I have some basic questions that perhaps some of you HO experts can refresh my memory with.
My room is 11'X13'. I would use the same bench work that my current N scale layout is on.It is built around the room. You can see pictures of it it my layout thread.
I plan on modeling 70's thru 80's but will most likely stick with four axle locomotives. If I want to run a 50' or 60' cars what radius would best without the cars hanging over the rail.?
I will be using Atlas code 83 flex and would want it to look good.
Also, If I have two parralel tracks what is the distance between from center line to center line?
I do have more question like info on DCC but that can wait. I have over 30 locomotives in N scale but if I make the change I will go DCC.
Any info on track radius would be helpful.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Well to run 60' cars and the proper locos for them you'll need at least 24" turns to get the look you're looking for. 

Nice looking N scale you had there, :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: looks like you're more interested in operations than anything else, I'm that way also. 

You're going to get a lot less track in using HO so you might look into a track planning program, SCRAM seems like a good one and as far as I know still free. I wish I had done so. I'm one of the worst "No plan" planers. 

Dig through this thread and also the My Layout thread, you'll get some good ideas there.

Magic


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Thanks for the quick reply. If I recall radius used to come in 22" so I was thinking about 24" as well. Just wasn't sure. I know I will have a lot less track and shorter trains but will make up for it with DCC and operating. I still have not taken the plunge yet. I will be taking care of my grandson for a couple weeks over the summer so the N scale layout will stay up and running for a while.
I am very good at track planning but it is difficult for me to visualize anything until I have a clean board and bare bench work.
Thanks again for the reply. I will use this thread for future questions.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Here is the 'bible' of track spacing:

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-8.html

My DCC HO layout is in a room just a bit smaller
than yours. It is a single track main that basically
follows the walls around the room. With the space
you have you should easily have 22 or better radius
curves. In addition, I have 2 yards, each with 7 tracks
which, if you like train operations, gives you a lot of
fun.

The reason I chose a single track main, is that, knowing
I was going DCC, I could run 2 trains in opposite directions
at the same time, using 3 passing sidings. That means
you must actually run the trains and throw the turnouts.

Don


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Don, Thanks for the info .Your layout sounds like something I have a vision of building. Do you have pics of it here? I dont recall.
I am good at modeling with all the years I have done N scale but as the thread says I am "back to basics" on some things.
I am not one that is good with software for layout design and tend to design my layouts by a visual idea. Until I have bare bench work it will be difficult to do that. But it looks like more every day the change will come soon.

Another question: Do you use #6 turnouts for passing sidings? And #4 for a spur track?
I will be using Atlas code 83 flex.



Thanks........


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

You'll need four feet to make an HO 22" 180 degree curve without going off the table. Two feet for a 90 degree turn. 24" radius you will have to make from flex-track I think. You have a nice layout there Joe. Shame to give it up but you still have room for a decent HO scale layout with lots of switching. Pete


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Norgale, thanks. It looks like I will use the original bench work and basically just go around the room. So radius of 24" will be fine.
The tricky part will be installing the swing down section across the doorway. I first did it with N scale and it did not work real well and widened the bench work to turn the trains around. I have a friend in Cali that did it with HO and do to the size it works great.
I still have the pieces out in storage so the cost for bench work will be zero $.
I appreciate all the info from everyone.


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## jesteck (Apr 15, 2014)

Easiest way I've found to measure minimum track centers is to join two turnouts together. For the size engines and cars you plan to run, #6 will do; save the #4s for yards and spurs- slow speed stuff. Anything that will run at speed, you might want to use #8s. I would consider 18" with easements to be your absolute minimum radius both for appearance and operation. Bigger looks and runs better. 2" centers is good for straights, but you might want a touch more clearance for parallel curves. Flex track is your friend, not the enemy. Fewer joints to create electrical problems, and gives you much more flexibility in your design than sectional track. Believe it or not, roadbed is OPTIONAL. Use it if you want, but nicely laid and ballasted track looks just as good without it, and things like road crossings are a lot easier without the extra 1/4 inch to deal with. Final thought- why not a lift-up at the doorway instead of a drop-down? Wouldn't it be easier to build a secure, solid rest for the lift section to sit on when you lower it than some kind of latch system to hold it up when raised?


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Jseteck, thanks for the insight. I have always liked roadbed for the look it gives. I have not decided yet but most real mainlines are raised and then also there is the noise factor. Yes the gate is still open for thought. I cannot measure it or work on it yet. The current track height is not the same on both sides right now. Its gonna have to wait until I have it level so I have time to think about it.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

If you go with foam board and roadbed on top of that it will mitigated the sound problem.
In fact for me at least the trains sound real good, a nice rolling sound that is not too loud. I've got all sound locos but sometimes I just turn the sound off and just listen to the rolling wheel sounds. 

I think a swinging bridge in HO will be easier to do than N scale. I used a lift out with sliding rail joiners and just remove a piece of sectional track that bridges the gap but it's a bathroom door that I don't have to use all that often. (Portability in back yard  )

Magic


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Thanks Magic for the input Magic...........

Well its Official after I :sold: some N Scale I couldn't help but start an HO collection 

I bought a new Athearn Caboose, and two older Roundhouse cars that I had the same in N Scale. I am now the proud owner of some HO after all these years.
No layout but collecting already :laugh:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Joe

While you are mulling the way to build your bridge, do plan an isolated
section of track on each side of it. These would be powered through
a microswitch or simple brass/copper contacts on your bridge supports.
When the bridge is 'out' there is no power in the isolated tracks and
your locos remain safe from a death defying leap to the floor.

All of my turnouts, including those on my passing sidings are the Peco
Insulfrog 'small' as they lable them. They are quite similar to Atlas #4.
The longer turnouts would be better but I didn't have the space for them.

Don


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Thanks Don, Its difficult to get a vision on the overall layout yet since I am still keeping the N scale up for a bit. My grandson will visit twice real soon. I cannot take the track down yet. hwell: I already have some good ideas though. Im just gonna need some advice on DCC when the time comes.
Modeling HO after N scale will be fun and easy for me. Got my Caboose today and made me feel alot better about the change. With an optivisor I can actually see the small parts 
Also got the roundhouse cars. Already want to weather them and change to metal wheels.
Got an HO "project tote" already 
Looking forward to putting some HO kits together.:thumbsup:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A couple of small items that sure do make modelling
easier, an HO scale 'ruler'. Mine actually has rulers
for O, N and HO. With it you can take a measurement,
actual door frame or building width, for example,
then mark your material in HO feet.

A Kadee INSULATED coupler height gauge. I didn't have
one when I converted my original used train cars to
Kadee. Just yesterday, I realigned the couplers on
about 2/3 of my cars. Some needed to be higher, using
Kadee washers. Some were too high, so I filed down
the bolsters.

Don


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Don, yes good advice. I am somewhat advanced when it comes to modeling and I couldn't do it without those tools. I love to scratch build, paint, decal etc.Main reason I am switching after all these years. I had a mascot multi-scale ruler and while moving glue got spilled on it. Got that on the want list.
I could have used an HO ruler tonight. I was in the train room, picked up a 50' box car and measured it. Then measured an area where there might be a siding. That siding area would hold about 12 cars.
I have a Micro-Trains height gauge but not a Kadee. The wish list is long but The N scale collection I am selling is huge and along the way I am picking up a few HO kits.
There are certain things I don't recall from my HO days long ago.
Another month or so When we are done baby sitting my grandson I can start to "clean the slate". he would drive me nuts if he came here and no trains were running.
Thanks for the tips and reminders.Ill have more questions as I make the change.


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Instead of starting new threads I will keep my questions here for now. When I start the bench work I will start a layout thread
As I get closer to stripping the N scale layout I have more ideas of what I want to do. 

My question is> How high is your layout from floor to track base? 

I have always built my N scale layouts 42" high. If I leave the basic 42" high base, I might get a double layer layout. The 42" layer would be for storage tracks and turnarounds. That would put the level of the mainline at about 48" to 50" .
I think its okay. Just not good viewing for kids but my grandson always wants "UP" anyway. if I build it that way rather than having trains going around a room I would have two levels.
Just wanted some opinions, Thanks


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I would plan it at what is comfortable to you. You are the one who is going to be working on it.

Kids get big quick, too quick sometimes. 
While they are little people they can stand on a stool or something.


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Hi Ed, Yea I kinda feel that way, it might be easier on my back not bending over so low when doing track laying and scenery. I always think that sometimes the height of 42" is to low and you get the effect of looking down rather than looking "at something".
Although I am starting over its kinda fun, you would be proud of me, already have collected a bunch of older kits and my 2nd and 3rd Locos are on their way next week. Not sure when Ill be able to run them but got what I wanted.


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## jesteck (Apr 15, 2014)

Joe, a double decker layout with storage and turnarounds on the lower level sounds pretty cool- BUT..... Six to eight inches of height difference between levels doesn't give you anywhere near enough room between them to allow the use of the "5 finger crane" to correct derailments, etc., on the lower level in the staging areas. You'll want at least a foot and a half or so between them- and an 18" rise between levels will take a LOT of track, even at extreme grade, with HO. A 1% grade takes nearly 12' of track to rise just an inch. 4%, 3 feet or so- for that same inch height gain. Multiply either of those by 18, and you're in helix territory. Think carefully before you leap ahead.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Conductorjoe said:


> Hi Ed, Yea I kinda feel that way, it might be easier on my back not bending over so low when doing track laying and scenery. I always think that sometimes the height of 42" is to low and you get the effect of looking down rather than looking "at something".
> Although I am starting over its kinda fun, you would be proud of me, already have collected a bunch of older kits and my 2nd and 3rd Locos are on their way next week. Not sure when Ill be able to run them but got what I wanted.


My layout is 42" and I wish I had gone higher for the reasons you give. I run my trains standing up so and looking down too much. Three or four more inches would have been much better for me at least. Easier too work under the layout that way also. 

Magic


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Jest, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I need to go that high. I will be using the framework from my current N scale layout. it is not flat plywood, it is open grid in some areas.It goes around the walls in 11'x13' room. the width is anywhere from 24" out to 45". I can widen the 45" if needed, just makes it tougher to do scenery. I would only put about 3-4 storage tracks on the bottom.They would be within about 12" of the edge.
As far as track further away? Currently I have two tracks that go thru loops and disappear into tunnels that cannot be reached from looking at it. The trick is, what no one sees underneath. My tracks in the tunnels are on plywood strips. There are plastic strips of styrene along the tracks that act as guard rails. I can access from underneath and reach anything I want.
I have been fortunate and only had one derailment on the current layout. A new car hit a track nail with the coupler pin. It caused a major derailment and I lost 2 cars.My mistake for not taking the time to check a new car and newly laid track.
When I do get started with bare bench work I will share my progress.
Right now 50" high with 8" between seems okay.


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