# help please



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

I have a area about 8x12 to build my layout, my first. I have a good amount of ho stuff, track, engines, etc. a small amount o gauge. thinking ho. second,dcc or not,only couple of engines are dcc and a good amount not. any layout designs for the space i have would be helpfull.i want to have passenger on outer loop and freight switching on inner wth spurs, as you can tell iam a real newbie


----------



## Mr.Buchholz (Dec 30, 2011)

DCC is expensive no matter how you look at it, but on the other hand, you can run multiple trains. DC is cheap and easy to wire, but you can only run one train.

8'x12' should give you a lot of room to play with your track layout and such. Any idea what theme or time period you will go with? So many options! What kind of HO stuff is it you have? I'd love to know the brands your locos and rolling stock are.

-J.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'd say welcome, but you've obviously been here for a while.

Layout plans are a dime a dozen on the internet. Some are better than others. It's really hard to be helpful when someone just says, "I have x by y available, what should I do?" We need a little more insight into what you want from your layout in order to be any help. Start with our own Layout Design forum -- it has two sticky threads with member's layout designs and a collection of track plans that people have posted. See if anything there appeals. Try a book of track plans (Kalmbach is a good source). If you can post some ideas that you like, we can help you pull these into a cohesive whole.

DCC or not is also hard to say. When you can buy good intro sets for about $150, and individual decoders for around $25 (w/o sound), it's really not a budget buster. As Mr. Buchholz says, if you want to have multiple locos on your layout at once, DCC really makes things so much simpler. Even if you don't intend to RUN 2 or more simultaneously, the ability to park a loco without having to electrically isolate it is huge.

So do some research, let us know what kinds of things appeal to you and we'll have you up and running in no time!


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Check out the Layout design forum. You'll find a number of existing and
proposed track plans. You may not see exactly what you want but you
can get and idea here and another there that you can use to create your
own layout.

When you buy a starter set you get an oval of the maker's special design
track. These tracks are not compatible with each other or with regular
HO flex or sectional track, turnouts and crossings.

You would do better using your existing HO tracks or replace it
with flex track and getting an economical starter DCC controller; NCE offers
several as does Bachmann and Digitrax, all popular among our members.

Since you have some DCC locos and several DC, you way want to consider
making your layout capable of running EITHER (Never both at the same time).

That is done with a simple Double throw double pole switch. It selects
which power feeds the track but won't permit both so as to protect your
gear from damage.

You can, as time passes, install DCC decoders in your DC locos and then
run them as DCC.

Don


----------



## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

For an 8x12 area, assuming it's an enclosed space such as a spare bedroom, I would strongly suggest considering an around the walls style layout, with 'shelves' 24" wide. You will be able to have broader curves which make for easier more realistic running. For a layout in the middle of the room, to have access to all sides of it you would be limited to a 4x8 sheet of plywood, or 5x9 if you're willing to have only 18" clearance on all sides.
What are some of your wants for your layout?


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

thank you for the input everyone. yes i have been lurking the forum for a long time as i started to collect things.i even bought a lot of things from the member to member area. i will try to post pics of what i have as soon as i can.i already have the nce power cab and thats prob the way ill go.my layout will be in the center of my garage for now,its the only space i have.I have about 50 pcs of flex track and two peco switches,need alot more switches but just not in budget right now.


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

the attachment is kinda what i have in mind but stretched out a bit, thanx robert


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Don't stretch it too much in the 4' direction. Most of us have a useful reach of about 30", so much more than 5' wide gets unmanageable unless you have access to the center.

The layout you have selected is a fun one, with lots of potential to do more than just watch a train go in a circle. Save your pennies and buy the turnouts necessary. Most people don't stay satisfied with a simple circle of track (about all you're going to manage with 50 pieces of flex track and 2 turnouts) for very long.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Biger, and beter*



flyboy2610 said:


> For an 8x12 area, assuming it's an enclosed space such as a spare bedroom, I would strongly suggest considering an around the walls style layout, with 'shelves' 24" wide. You will be able to have broader curves which make for easier more realistic running. For a layout in the middle of the room, to have access to all sides of it you would be limited to a 4x8 sheet of plywood, or 5x9 if you're willing to have only 18" clearance on all sides.
> What are some of your wants for your layout?


I also strongly suggest doing what flyboy says above. A round the walls, or some walls, layout
will be more realistic, offer better access, and hold your interest longer than the oval on a slab layout in your posted photo. Another advantage is being able to use the space for more than one purpose. My shelf layout is on three walls of my garage. The car can still be parked in the garage, and it is also used as a workshop. Wider sections at both ends hold loops that permit continuous running. A shelf layout is no harder to build either. 
Of course, you have the only vote that matters. It's your layout. Good luck with whatever you decide on.

Traction Fan


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

one more question of many to come, what peco switches to use #4,#6 ?


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Go for the largest radius you can or what fits your plan. It may help you to place them on the layout first. You can download templates from here: http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=pointplans 

Good luck.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The larger the turnout #, the shallower the angle of departure of the diverging leg. The # is actually units of run over units of diverging distance -- IOW, on a #6 turnout, the diverging leg will go 1" to the side (track centers) for every 6" from the frog, measured along the straight leg. Clear as mud (I never can explain this very well)?

Cycleops is right. Use the highest turnout number you can fit.


----------



## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

So, the frog number is the cotangent of the frog angle!


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*#4 or #6?*



trashman said:


> one more question of many to come, what peco switches to use #4,#6 ?


trashman;

If you can fit #6 turnouts, use them. They will handle just about any rolling stock. The #4's are OK in locations where a #6 wont fit; you just have to be careful to run slowly, and some very large equipment may not work well on them. You can have both on the same layout, it's not really a matter of either/or. One place to use #6, or bigger, is at crossovers. This is the configuration that has two turnouts connected back-to-back to allow train movement from one main line to another. It is notorious for derailments because it contains a reverse curve. The bigger the turnout's frog#, the less severe the reverse curve.

Traction Fan


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

cid said:


> So, the frog number is the cotangent of the frog angle!


And I'm SURE that will make it easier for the average model railroader....


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

ok, going with the #6. next question is what will i need for them? machine's mounting paltes, tortious machines, etc... I will not use the dcc to control it.will use a techII to power them. I really know nothing about them


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Depends on the depth of your pocket! You can either get the Peco budget motors that clip on under the turnout and snap it from side to side or a slow action servo based one that moves slowly as per the full size.


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

wow even more confusion,not very deep pockets but would like to use the slow ones mounted under table


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Overall cost is going to depend on how many you will need. Tortoise are most well known and also the most expensive. I use the Singlet from Tam Valley Depot which includes a switch for fascia mounting: http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/ if you already have some micro servos you can save a little. I don't know US prices for these products so maybe someone else can help there.


----------



## Chip (Feb 11, 2016)

"Cy" is right on the pockets issue, this can get pricey! I have a "silly huge" (500sq feet) layout and went with all manual for the first set up!

Just did a quick walk around and counted over 30 "Y's" and turnouts so I saved a bundle going manual!

Manual helps brain-dead types like me remember WHICH SWICH was SWITCHED and WHICH WAY it was switched! A panel would help but jeez-loueeze who wants to build a panel? Besides, as soon as I build the panel, I'll want to change the track plan!


----------



## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

trashman said:


> one more question of many to come, what peco switches to use #4,#6 ?


Are you going to be using Peco Electro-frog switches or the Peco Insul-frog switches? Which type you use will have an impact on both wiring complexity of the layout and the cost to your wallet.


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

electro-isul I dont know the difference. What would you suggest?


----------



## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

You already have two Peco switches dont you?


----------



## trashman (Aug 6, 2011)

yes, sl86 &sl87. i bought them a while ago


----------



## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

Ok...those are Insulfrog....the frogs are plastic and don't conduct current....so you might as well stick with Insulfrog switches when you buy more switches.


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

And what are the differences between insulfrog switches and electrofrog switches?


----------



## Genetk44 (Feb 26, 2016)

Cycleops said:


> And what are the differences between insulfrog switches and electrofrog switches?


Well as I said in my earlier post....the frogs are plastic and don't conduct electricity so do not require any method to switch the electrical polarity of the frog. Makes for slightly less complex and less expensive wiring but can impact reliability of very short-wheelbased locos crossing through the switch.

Electro-frog switches have metal frogs that conduct electricity so wiring is a tiny bit more complex and a tad more expensive but reliability is better.

Since the OP already has 2 insulfrogs he might as well stick with them.

Btw....there are tons of written, photographic,video and drawings on Google showing the differences and uses of the two types.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Definitely, Peco Insulfrogs are by far the
easiest to install and use. They are power
routing, however, so any dead end yard or
spur track will lose power when the points are
set to straight. A track drop from the spur 
frog rail will keep the power on. Some like
this feature because they can 'park' a loco
without power.

You asked whether to use #4 (Peco's term is 'small')
or #6. That depends on the space you have and
your track design. The number sixes (medium)
look better and provide a wider radius turn.

Don


----------

