# American Flyer boxcar ID



## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

Hello folks, I am a longtime American Flyer collector, and I also take them out to play, as A.C. Gilbert intended. I have many S gauge items, rolling stock and accessories. I have a respectable amount of Gilbert HO, as well as Erector Sets, chemistry sets, telescopes, etc. Yet, I am stumped.

I have a boxcar in my collection about which I can find no information. It is American Flyer S gauge number 25104. I have never seen another. It is not in my Greenberg or Doyle guides. Nowhere on-line can I find it.

It is a Great Northern red non-opening door boxcar. It is red unpainted plastic except for, this is odd, the end walls are black. And, strangely, on both ends upper right corner is marked, in small white lettering, G.N. 25104. And, get this, on both sides, to the lower left corner of the doors, in small white lettering it says "compartmentizer equipped".

The details molded in the shell exterior match other later-production boxcars. The base is flat sheet metal with 4 locating holes and 4 brass push pins to retain the shell. The trucks and couplers look like AF pieces. These are sintered iron sideframes and knuckle couplers. They have the PA- part numbers molded into them. It has a one-piece plastic brakewheel.

This car is in excellent condition. The metal parts show the proper "patina" of something that has been nicely stored for about as long as I have been on this Earth. In my observation, this appears to be a genuine AC Gilbert car.

As time has shown me, I do not know it all. So, I am asking for wisdom from this group to tell me anything they care to about this car.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Welcome to the forum!!!..There are several members here who are the ultimate experts, I'm just a mediocre repair guy. Stick around and you'll have an answer sometime today. The good guys here love a mystery, wish I could help...I checked my books as well, can't find that number.. I would post pictures, but you don't have that privilege until you have 5 posts.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Welcome to the MTF. The numbers 25xxx were used by Gilbert for operating cars but it sounds from your description this car did not use either a body or a chassis from an operating boxcar. Seems strange Gilbert would have stamped 25104 on a non operating car. I think most of the cars made by Kris Model Trains using Gilbert parts have been documented. That car is not one of them and Kris did not use Gilbert sequence numbers.
Hobby surplus purchased all the Gilbert parts inventory post bankruptcy and it included a lot of unused bodies, chassis and trucks.I have a number of Hobby Surplus released freight cars and the car you have could be from Hobby Surplus production. If so it was not one they advertised.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Would love to see a pic if you could manage it.....


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

I would like to share photos, but I am new here, and I see from flyernut's reply above that I need to put in some time before I have that privelage.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Neat car you have. Please show it when you can. Welcome to the forum.

AmFlyer is one of our best at mystery cars.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

miracleworker said:


> I would like to share photos, but I am new here, and I see from flyernut's reply above that I need to put in some time before I have that privelage.


It’s not the time you have, but the minimum number of posts.....so get posting.....


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Not sure, but I think after 5 posts you can post pics. So not too bad.


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

Good to know. Thank you to everyone for the greetings I have received. I will post more in a judicious manner then get a tech-savvy helper to teach me to do photos.


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

Upon closer examination I must offer a correction to my first post. The shell outer details appear identical to the shells of some of the earlier cars I have, such as Seaboard Silver Meteor 642 or American Flyer 639. I am not finding this exact pattern in my later 5-digit cars.


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

The frame of the 25104 appears identical to the 639 and 642. My Greenberg,s Guide calls this a Type I. The information stamped into the steel on the bottom of the car is the same, and has the same varying type sizes, on all 3 cars.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Right, we already knew the chassis and body shell were not a 5 digit versions from the first post that identified the four brass push pins. Also the original post used the term marked rather than stamped so that is something yet to be verified. If all the markings are rubber stamped and not decals or dry transfers it raises the question of where did the rubber stamps originate. To the best of my recollection Gilbert only made two partially painted/partially bare plastic boxcars or reefers. Those are the 633 and 933 tuscan/white boxcars. That is another aspect of this car that would be highly unusual from the factory. The next step is to examine carefully high resolution pictures of the car.


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

Let us see if these pictures are helpful. As far as what process made the markings, I am not expert in that field. I can see surrounding the small print on the lower right side there is a slight discoloration "box". It is enhanced here by my LED flashlight.

The shell is red plastic, the end black is painted on.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Excellent pictures. Looking closely at the overall car the appearance is somewhat different from a typical unpainted Gilbert plastic. Looking specifically at the second picture and the closeup in the 4th picture the edges of the decals are visible.. From these pictures all the lettering on the right side of the car is part of decals, so likely all the lettering is on decals. Then, if after applying the decals a clear spray was used that would explain the appearance of the red plastic. Wherever this car came from it is very well done. I do not think it is from the Gilbert factory.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Nice car! 
I agree with AmFlyer....the car has been decaled.....


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

Now to find out if this is a one-off skilled hobbyist's job, or if a small enterprise from "back when" was doing small batches or custom orders. If anyone can identify these decals as those supplied by or used on someone else's cars please let us know. Or, if you have one like this, let us know, so that this one can know it is not the only one.

My acquisition of this is similar to what many others here have enjoyed. I bought several bunches of American Flyer items from an estate at a local auction house. This was in there. I recognized the odd car number, and figured it would be good for an adventure


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I’m betting it’s a one-off custom.......I have never seen those small enterprises use decals when doing a special run of cars.....IMO......


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Agree with Old Hobo. If this car were done by a small volume commercial enterprise the only decal would be the round Great Northern logo. All the other lettering would be stamped.


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## alaft61ri (Oct 11, 2019)

welcome to the forum nice car i agree with amflyer


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

And even the GN logo might have been stamped.....


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