# Guidelines For First-Time Sellers On This Site



## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Welcome to Model Train Forum. We get a lot of visitors who have acquired a train and want to sell it. Often, they need information or advice to do so, and we don't mind helping you find what you need. We do ask that you be honest, though. If you want to sell it here, that's fine; if you need help establishing a price for ebay, that's fine, too. Please, don't tell us you're looking for a buyer just to get the information and then leave without offering it for sale. It tends to sour people for the next guy who comes along. 

We've learned to trust one another. That is established when you talk to someone several times a week: you create your reputation and integrity. I don't want to cheat someone on a sale and have that become my reputation on this site. For a newly arrived person, there is no established reputation, and that is a problem. A person with 20 or fewer posts is still establishing himself, so these guidelines would apply to those people when they attempt to sell.

First----THIS SITE DOES NOT GUARANTEE ANY SALE, IN ANY WAY. THE SITE IS IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY BUSINESS DEALINGS OF IT'S MEMBERS. 

Second....as the new guy in town, it's your reputation that is unknown. We want new people to stay, so it's in our best interest to treat you well. This is about you returning the favor.


Here's how it works. You have an engine you want to sell me and we agree upon the price and shipping. You send it to me and if it's as you described, I send you the check. If it's not, I send it back at your expense. If it's good, I mail you the check. Yes, you are taking all the risk. You can badmouth me here if I cheat you and no one else will ever trade with me, again: that's my incentive to treat you well. 

The longer version is using a third party. I send the check to an agreed-upon third (member) party to hold. You send me the engine. I like, I keep, and tell #3 to send you the check. If not, I send it back to you, and #3 tears up my check AFTER YOU RECEIVE THE ENGINE BACK.

Until we get to know you for a while, we don't have a feel for who we are dealing with. We trust each other here and, if you stick around long enough, that trust will extend to you. However, if you're simply here to sell a train and move on, we have reason to be cautious.

I want to make it easier for people to buy or sell with outsiders and have both come away successful. I hope this will help.

Thanks for your patience,


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

good points and suggestions, but IMO needs to be shortened to not loose the audience. i'll proof read it later and come up with suggestions

also, guidelines are good, but then to be of any value they need to be enforced.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Tankist, thanks for the critique---I tend to be wordy. I've shortened it; tell me if it needs more slashing. 
I don't see any way to enforce it----people will do as they choose. That said, I think it's in everyone's best interest to use it. It allows someone to say "I follow the site guidelines for buying" instead of "I don't trust you." If it doesn't work, it's just another of my hairbrained ideas to laugh at and move on to the next post.

You're definitely encouraged to proof and improve, incidentally: it usually takes more than one person to make a good product. Have at it!


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

i'll be looking at it bit later.


Reckers said:


> I don't see any way to enforce it----people will do as they choose.


this takes moderator monitoring the appropriate forum branch, hading out warnings


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gents,

Is there a "Code of Ethics / Standards" sticky thread anywhere on the site? (Couldn't find one.) Maybe Recker's points above (plus others typical forum fundamentals) warrant a "please read this" sticky thread aimed towards new members and visitors? A lot of the content would be common sense "boilerplate", of course, but sometimes it's good to have a few guideline standards put forth in writing.

That all said, you may know that I'm relatively new to the forum. As a newbie, I'm utterly AMAZED at how curteous, civil, informative, and willing to go out of the way to help other people the members of this forum have been. I've learned a lot (from people I've never met), and have shared some fun laughs along the way. So, my complaints about the "integrity" of the forum (the members, really) are nil ... it's a great group of guys as is. It'd be nice to maintain that very high standard going forward.

Thanks, guys,

TJ


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## mkschram (Feb 8, 2010)

Reckers, this is very well put. Very nice and direct. There should be no question as to how to go about selling or buying to anyone on this site.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

TJ, you fit in well because you have the same personal code as most on this site: learn from others, share what you've learned, interact with integrity and have fun. The generosity of the people I met here is what made me want to keep coming back. My whole premise behind the thread is that dealing money with outsiders can be troubling---you want to trust them, but "be wise as serpents" is good advice. I thought if we had a framework outsiders visiting to sell were expected to follow, it would take the sting out of that caution. 
I'm not opposed to a code of ethics for the site, but I believe you came through the door with the same one we all share. This place attracts a lot of people, and the good ones stay. Those who just want to use someone tend to drift away pretty quickly. If they don't, we contact Big Ed to send the Joisey Boys to visit them.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Reck, 
i just read your entire paragraph line by line, good points mostly i probably completely missed your main idea before (crazy monday at work).

i don't think the mechanics of transaction should be regulated. its up to sides to find a comfortable way and terms. third party holding check? who is going to be that third party? my point exactly.
there are plenty of established escrow services , paypal one of them, why not just use that? 

what i was more looking at is guidelines of posting items and encouraging offering them here first to benefit members instead of promoting ebay auctions to benefit yourself.

"Don't bump your posts to often with "please! i need this gone!". this will not help thing sell faster."
"Don't flood forum with multiple topics of your items. concentrate all your offerings into one post as much as possible."
"update topics instead of creating new ones."
etc.

those however need to be established by our admin...
and , in that admin reads this, can we remove limit of views for lurkers? i cannot login from my phone for some reason so now i can't view the site on a way home


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## Rob Snyder (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with what you guys are saying. I'm still new here and have made several friends. I am cautious of people popping up to sell something then vanishing after they get price range. I've bought stuff from members here and was pleased with the professionalism that was handled in the transactions.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

mkschram said:


> Reckers, this is very well put. Very nice and direct. There should be no question as to how to go about selling or buying to anyone on this site.


Thank you for the kind words. Hopefully, a seller who is new to the site will understand it actually facilitates his sale. I'd be uneasy sending a large check to a stranger, but there's a dozen or more people here I'd have no
trouble sending it to as an umpire for the sale.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Reck, for the words above. Ditto to you, and to many others on this site who have made each visit a pleasure.

TJ


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

Reckers said:


> Here's how it works. You have an engine you want to sell me and we agree upon the price and shipping. You send it to me and if it's as you described, I send you the check. If it's not, I send it back at your expense. If it's good, I mail you the check.


I disagree with this... Every online transaction that I have ever been involved in has required the buyer paying before the item was shipped, forum or no forum :dunno:



tjcruiser said:


> Is there a "Code of Ethics / Standards" sticky thread anywhere on the site? (Couldn't find one.)


No there is not as we have never had a need for any official rules or CoC here at the Model Train Forum...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think Pay pal would be the way to go.
You are protected that way, right?

What bugs me is some post and you answer them but never hear from them again.

Send the Jersey boys, ha ha, make em sleep with the fishes?

I am getting to old for that. 

Though I know of some crazies that will, for a price take care of the situation.
Though it would cost more then the item you are trying to get.

Plus for some strange reason I start sweating when ever I see them.:laugh:


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## tworail (Apr 13, 2006)

Great work here.

Once finalized it can be posted as a read-only sticky in the FSOT forum if that makes any sense. I am OK with everything that is being discussed here, from a management perspective


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

tworail said:


> Great work here.
> 
> Once finalized it can be posted as a read-only sticky in the FSOT forum if that makes any sense. I am OK with everything that is being discussed here, from a management perspective


That last part is very important---thank you.





big ed said:


> *I think Pay pal would be the way to go.
> You are protected that way, right?*
> What bugs me is some post and you answer them but never hear from them again.
> 
> ...


Ed, I use Paypal for ebay transactions. Will they also act as a conduit for one-on-one stuff? How does that work?





Boston&Maine said:


> *I disagree with this... Every online transaction that I have ever been involved in has required the buyer paying before the item was shipped, forum or no forum *:dunno:
> 
> No there is not as we have never had a need for any official rules or CoC here at the Model Train Forum...


B&M, that is an excellent point, and I admit I was uncomfortable with it when I wrote it. I'd love for someone to smack me on the back of the head and give me a better alternative. So, let me narrow the scope for a moment. 

1. I don't want to tell anyone what they have to do---we're all big boys and girls, here.
2. I want to protect the members from predators.
3. I am scrounging for a protocol that will enable an established member to safely buy from an outsider.

If I buy from any regular tomorrow, I send a check and invite them to wait till it clears before shipping. It's up to them to decide if they want to, but I want them to be confident in me. On the other hand, I'd not want to do that with a guy with 2 posts, "Hello!" and "Buy this?" I have three choices: take the risk, play it safe and ignore the offer, or....point to the protocol and say, "This is how we do it, here. I'd like to buy if you are willing to do it this way." If he says no, I'm no worse off.

It's not perfect; it may not even be a good idea. I'd like to hear more from folks and then either pursue it or drop it. I'm not a rule-maker---I'm just looking for a way of making it work.

Thanks,





tankist said:


> Reck,
> i just read your entire paragraph line by line, good points mostly i probably completely missed your main idea before (crazy monday at work).
> 
> i don't think the mechanics of transaction should be regulated. its up to sides to find a comfortable way and terms. third party holding check? who is going to be that third party? my point exactly.
> ...


Anton, I think those are all good suggestions---if I didn't want what was listed yesterday, telling me how bad you want it gone won't make me like it more. *L* Would you be willing to author a thread with Suggestions For Selling in the Forum?

As for the mechanics of the deal, it cannot be regulated. However, it may be possible to make it easier to sell and buy. Ben I came by recently and said he had a bunch of AF to sell. All I know for sure is he had some pictures----no criticism of Ben, who was probably legit. So, what happens next? I don't make an offer because I can't control the outcome. What I am reaching for is a way to control the outcome. Until I can, Ben gets no money and I get no trains. It seems like we could find a way to improve on that. I'm wiiiiide open to suggestions, because no sale due to distrust benefits no one.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Rob Snyder said:


> I agree with what you guys are saying. I'm still new here and have made several friends. I am cautious of people popping up to sell something then vanishing after they get price range. I've bought stuff from members here and was pleased with the professionalism that was handled in the transactions.


Good point, Rob.

The people who come here to socialize, ask questions, share information, or offer help aren't going to try to rip soneone else off. They're the ones you can trust.

Greg


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Reck
as for mechanics
that's the reason escrow services exist. Pay pal holds your payment till you get the item and confirm all is good. ben is protected as he knows your "check" will not bounce, and you protected as you know ben is not holding your cash just yet (hopefully ben is not going to mail you a stone instead,. that would be bad). PP works outside ebay as well. as to who will be responcible for pay pal transaction fee is up to sides to negotiate.

as for regulations.
from moderation/administration perspective this site is somewhat unique. from what i see mods/admins are absent (or at least do not intervene )for days at a times and yet this place is still intact despite all the kids (that s us) running around with matches. with lessen regulations the people who comprise this site/community created specific atmosphere, or if you will ecosystem. 
Personally i do want members to conduct in a specific way (conforming to ethical norms as i see them), at a times i do wish a Mod to step in and clean up sertain areas i see not conforming to my idea of good discussion, in retrospect there are some of my posts that i would slap myself on fingers as well (left untouched). so while i do want to see certain things to happen on this forum, collectively we achieved a specific equilibrium. as a programmer i know the most important rule of all is "If it works, don't touch it!", s obviously administration of this site realized it as well and imposes no new rules hoping that we are not going to slit each others throats arguing. 
so far it is working...


so to answer, i can write/draft guidelines as i see them but i believe it should come from administration. 


PS
i do at a times wonder what future plans administration has on develping this forum...


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Okay----all good commentary/input. Anton, can you suggest any escrow services? Paypal is the only one I know of, and I don't know if they'll do that kind of stuff. Suppose we drop all my inane 3rd-party and ship-first, check-later stuff and go with the escrow services as the assurance of honesty. If you can offer a couple of them to post, I can reword the whole thing and we start from scratch. That assumes, of course, someone doesn't have a better idea to offer. If you do, don't be shy----get it on the board!


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

escrow.com and iescrow.com comes to mind + loads of others. research and decide what you decide to use. i stick to PP because of ebay...

i suggest visiting PP website and reading a bit, they explain their terms much more in detail. but in couple words: if you send money from your PP acc or linked bank acc as gift you are not charged commissions. if it is CC then you have a choice to pick up that commission. or you can send money as "payment". then the seller will pay the transaction fee. PP can be used outside of ebay just fine.


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## tworail (Apr 13, 2006)

escrow.com is akin to using a grenade to kill a fly for these types of transactions. Unless I was buying a collection for 5-6 figures I wouldn't bother.

My only experience with escrow.com was buying and selling websites in that dollar range... not my money though 

Regarding intervention on forum topics... for the most part I don't get involved, with the exception of one or two situations that got a bit out of hand. I'm not really interested in managing all the discussions on the site unless they a) are inappropriate (this is a family oriented site to a certain extent), b) do not contribute to the site in a positive or constructive manner or c) single out members without basis. I don't mind the threads that do single out members with *basis *though, such as the recent discussions on alternative auction sites  Guy didn't have a leg to stand on and clearly couldn't take the MTF heat!

As far as developing the forum further, there are no major plans. There is a ton of stuff that could be done, but requires development work that I can't do myself and can't afford to implement. In that sense, it will continue to be a typical forum community with a great member base who I have come to respect and enjoy their contributions in making this site successful. Until I can focus on development, there won't be too many bells and whistles. That said there are things that can be implemented such as a blog (not sure who is going to write the content), a reviews system, iTrader (which I was supposed to install if I remember correctly) but boils down to time, and money. With spring coming I typically spend more time away from the computer world, as most of us do, and I usually focus on projects involving the Internet during the winter months.

From what I gather the guidelines being proposed pertain to for sale or trade transactions, and I think this is good for everyone involved. Outside of that, I don't think there is any need for much other regulation here. Because people are fairly mature when it comes to their contributions, others follow suit and we don't seem to have many morons causing trouble. Now, if this was a Honda Civic forum with 18 years running all over the place it would be a different story


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey TwoRail,

You got me thinking ... What are the actual dollar costs associated with "management's" hosting of this site? Domain registration, etc. Who pays for that? Has there ever been a "pass the hat around" pot for members to contribute a few bucks? Can I suggest one, if there are real $ costs associated with the site? (I'll pony up first, if it's ever a "go".)

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Agreed---I'll kick in. I'm probably wearing the site hardware out faster than anyone!


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Hey TwoRail,
> 
> You got me thinking ... What are the actual dollar costs associated with "management's" hosting of this site? Domain registration, etc. Who pays for that? Has there ever been a "pass the hat around" pot for members to contribute a few bucks? Can I suggest one, if there are real $ costs associated with the site? (I'll pony up first, if it's ever a "go".)
> 
> TJ


on VN750.com we had "site supporter" program. cost 10$ to get in and contributors got badge (below) showing up against their name underneath the avatar.









well , since there we talked motorcycle, the site admin also created the actual badges (you know, bikers tend to like that stuff on their jackets) and gave them away to the first 200 or so who chose to join (since the forum was quite small took a while to distribute them). i found the website invaluable resource when fixing the older machine so i joined as well.

EDIT:
i will need to add that vn750 was not ad supported.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Tankist,

I like that "site supporter" idea. Again, I'm clueless as to the real $ costs of our MTForum, but I'd expect is something. So, share the load ... 

TwoRail, others ... any thoughts here? The site has been a HUGE help and value to me ... how can I "give back" to help offset mgt costs?

TJ


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

Tworail, 
as far as Features.on functional level i don't think forum is lacking to much. blogs and such not needed

However, I liked sertain feature i seen on Russian forum (running on same vBulletin software) - a system of "thanks!". different mentality perhaps, but they are very "Flood messages" minded. the idea is instead of posting 'wow! very cool" message, respondent will just mark post with thanks, acknowledging the original poster yet not spending space on post that does not contribute anything to discussion.

as example here is a thread of a member who wrote a report about his ride on Swiss RhB line (which was by coincidence on same day tworail posted the link to model of this road  )
http://www.modelldepo.ru/vb/forum/showthread.php?t=5598
obviously you can't read russian, but you can see that underneath his initial post there is a number of 18 and a link to show who left their thanks. those who do not have questions or comments expressed their approval and thanks so not to seem unpolite but without flooding the forum with empty messages that do not contribute to conversation. just as forum post count, separate count is kept for any thanks left and recieved. (shown underneath the avatar)

feature i liked is [off topick] tags. any text put in these is shows as off-topick link and is hidden until clicked on. this is used to give ability to post things not immediately related to main conversation (since over there any attempt to derail topic is frowned upon VERY strongly).

and another feature i'm missing is mutli-quote.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

As far as regulations and Politics

living in the "land (forum) of the free" is certainly nice in a way. however to tell the truth i would really love bit more active moderation. and by this i don't mean start throwing warnings and bans to members left and right. moderator can assist pruning threads (separating completely off-topic posts into their own threads), consolidating similar threads, sifting out good info and creating stickies and such.

i think that the "Send me your how to's!" call that you issued couple month ago was a part of the effort.



with that, the current situation is understandable - our Mod B&M being a student does not have time to perform lots of moderation. and i guess it still works (place is not burning down). however one can want, right?


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

tankist said:


> and another feature i'm missing is mutli-quote.


It has been here as long as I can remember...










tankist said:


> with that, the current situation is understandable - our Mod B&M being a student does not have time to perform lots of moderation. and i guess it still works (place is not burning down). however one can want, right?


Tankist, I have plenty of time to moderate... It is sort of hard though since this is not my forum, and I do not want to overstep my bounds as a mod... I am just trying to follow what has been done in the past... If you all really want me to enforce threads being on topic, then fine, I will... The Union Station forum will fill up pretty quick this way though :laugh:


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

i guess i called it incorrectly then (and this was the least important point actually). i want to do "quote of a quote" and at the moment it needs to be done manually.

ADD:
as far as moderation style, i don't think its should be based on my wants. thats why i asked about direction (since its not often topics about regulation come up) we as forum facing and plans for the future. staying right where we are since its working is i guess a plan as well.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

B & M, I think you do a great job of running the place. It's fun, it's a little bit rowdy, we wander off-topic without worrying about the thread police...in short, it's like going to a club or bar where everyone's shares at least one major interest. All this in spite of the fact you run those tricycle trains instead of S scale. Can I have an ahhhmen?????


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

tankist said:


> i guess i called it incorrectly then (and this was the least important point actually). i want to do "quote of a quote" and at the moment it needs to be done manually.


You are right, we do not have that... The only problem is that people end up doing something like this:



> > > > > I am a nerd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > O RLY?
> ...


They forget that they are quoting like five different people and the thread becomes extremely bloated...

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tankist said:


> as far as moderation style, i don't think its should be based on my wants. thats why i asked about direction (since its not often topics about regulation come up) we as forum facing and plans for the future. staying right where we are since its working is i guess a plan as well.


I would not either, that is why I said you all and not just you... I have no problems with working to keep threads on topic, and I do agree that it would be better for the forum...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Alright, gents ...

This thread has twisted and turned in a few different directions ... all interesting point, mind you. So, at the risk of pursuing one of those twists ...

As for keeping any given thread "on topic", I'd opt for simply the due-diligence of those posting, rather than some background "we might bump this" police. Admitedly, in my short time here, I've been guilty on many occasions of offering some little humorous (I hope) sidebar smack dab in the middle of a thread on, say, lubrication or something like that. Or, I'll jump in to offer a quick "Nice layout ... keep up the good work!" to someone posting their latest project pics. Clearly, comments like these don't really contribute to the hard-core technical "how to do something" foundation that we'd all like to get out of the forum. But ...

If the forum were nothing more than "hard core how to", I don't think I would endeavor to read each thread so carefully, nor would I explore around to see what others are doing beyond my specific areas of interest. However, because OTHERS are so often offering their OWN silly sidebars, "atta boys", etc., I find myself wondering what good laugh lurks around the next thread corner. It's these very NON hard-core snippets that grabs my interst all the more, and makes my "forum experience" feel more like I'm sitting in a pub, having a chat and a beer with some other train guys than would a more stringent/policed environment. I've never met (nor likely will meet) these so-called "beer buddies", but it's the "having a beer chat talk" that makes the forum fun.

'nuff said.

TJ


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

When I am talking about potentially separating out off-topic posts, I mean that it would be when we have several posts in a row talking about a different subject which is completely unrelated to the original topic...


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Alright, gents ...
> 
> This thread has twisted and turned in a few different directions ... all interesting point, mind you. So, at the risk of pursuing one of those twists ...
> 
> ...


I have no idea what you're referring to....*innocent look*


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