# Lionel TMCC, Legacy, & Conventional Power & Control



## shenze

Hello,

I am new to the hobby and want to set up a O-scale multi-engine layout using Lionel FasTrack and the new Legacy Controller. I have purchased a set that comes with the conventional CW-80 transformer but have not yet purchased the Legacy controller. I have also already purchased a higher-end engine cira 2006 with TMCC features.

I understand that the Legacy controller will operate the TMCC engines. Is this correct? Do I need any other TMCC equipment for my TMCC engine? When adding the Legacy controller system, I need to attach a power supply such as the CW-80 to it, correct?

Any insight into how conventional, TMCC, and Legacy work together on the same layouts would be most helpful. Thanks in advance for your help!


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## T-Man

The best answers are at the source. Lionel.
You should also read their newsletter for updated information. FAQ is also helpful.
Welcome to MTF.


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## rayins

*TMCC & Legacy*



shenze said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am new to the hobby and want to set up a O-scale multi-engine layout using Lionel FasTrack and the new Legacy Controller. I have purchased a set that comes with the conventional CW-80 transformer but have not yet purchased the Legacy controller. I have also already purchased a higher-end engine cira 2006 with TMCC features.
> 
> I understand that the Legacy controller will operate the TMCC engines. Is this correct? Do I need any other TMCC equipment for my TMCC engine? When adding the Legacy controller system, I need to attach a power supply such as the CW-80 to it, correct?
> 
> Any insight into how conventional, TMCC, and Legacy work together on the same layouts would be most helpful. Thanks in advance for your help!


I wish that I had seen this post sooner, I am using TMCC on my S gauge layout. I have just obtained a Legacy system to use in conjunction with the TMCC and they work together fine. The Legacy will operate TMCC engines along with Legacy equipment.
I have a number of post war Gilbert Flyer engines to which I have added TMCC control, and a number of conventional engines that I will not add it to. Here is what I see as a large advantage for TMCC or Legacy, you can run any engine with your wireless remote and not have to modify it. All you need if you have TMCC is to add Powermasters, if you have Legacy you will also need a Powermaster Bridge. As stated in the previous post the Lionel site has much info on both systems and they have Techs that will answer questions emailed to them, it may take a few days to get the answer but they are forth coming.
If you still have questions on this you can contact me and I would be happy to try to help you out.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm thinking about DCC of some kind for my O-scale rig, so I may have some questions. How easy is it to add TMCC to an existing engine, do decoders exist that don't cost more than a TMCC equipped engine?


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm thinking about DCC of some kind for my O-scale rig, so I may have some questions. How easy is it to add TMCC to an existing engine, do decoders exist that don't cost more than a TMCC equipped engine?


John,
Depending on what the motor situation is in the engines you have now the decoders, less sound, will cost between $50.00 and$75.00. They are not difficult to install. If you go to ERR website and click on there manuals it is all laid out there. I am in S gauge so I know in your O gauge equipment you will have much more room than I have for the boards. I have installed ERRs' driver and sound boards with the speaker in engines as small as the AF Baldwin.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

Who is EER? Do you have a link for them?

I have an assortment of engines, some with a single motor, some with two. They're both A/C and D/C as well. I doubt I'd do them all, but perhaps 3-4 of the "favorites".


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Who is EER? Do you have a link for them?
> 
> I have an assortment of engines, some with a single motor, some with two. They're both A/C and D/C as well. I doubt I'd do them all, but perhaps 3-4 of the "favorites".


ERR is Electric Railroad Co, if you type Electric Railroad Co. into your browser it should get you there. They do have boards to run both AC and DC motors and they all run off the AC that is on the rail with the TMCC/Legacy system.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

Is that module a decoder for the TMCC as well as the driver for the motor? Remember, I know nothing about digital train control.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Is that module a decoder for the TMCC as well as the driver for the motor? Remember, I know nothing about digital train control.


Yes it is the decoder and the driver board for the motors. It is also the decoder for the sound if you want to add that option. I was at the same place you are now about three years back, I knew nothing about all this except that I wanted the wireless control and the ability to control two or more engines on the same piece of rail independently.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I'm there now.  I do have a small advantage, I'm an EE and a computer guy, so the concepts are familiar, just not the equipment. 

Just trying to figure out what it'll take to upgrade to digital. Obviously, I have to have the infrastructure for TMCC in place first.

Do you control all your switches and accessories that way as well?

Also, is there a computer interface option to do some automated routing and the like?


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, I'm there now.  I do have a small advantage, I'm an EE and a computer guy, so the concepts are familiar, just not the equipment.
> 
> Just trying to figure out what it'll take to upgrade to digital. Obviously, I have to have the infrastructure for TMCC in place first.
> 
> Do you control all your switches and accessories that way as well?
> 
> Also, is there a computer interface option to do some automated routing and the like?


No, I don't do any of the switches or accessories with my remote, I actually am still am doing the construction of the layout. I do have the track laid and am able to run trains The main thing I wanted was the train control, I have the buttons for my switches and uncouplers around the layout near the accessory that they activate. One guy in our club who is not tech savvy, said he was afraid to try this stuff. He did go ahead and install three Powermasters on his layout so he could run his trains from the wireless without modifying his engines. He guts it and went ahead with the SW2s, switch controllers, he called me yesterday to tell me he has half of his switches on the remote and will finish the rest of them today. He also wanted to know when I would order more driver boards, I guess he is losing his fear of TMCC. 
With the Legacy you can set a number of routes without a computer interface. You might also want to visit the Lionel web sight to get more info on the Legacy

Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

I looked it Lionel's site, I guess I'm due more reading before moving forward. I happened to score some TMCC engines (2) for pretty low bids, so I got the itch to make upgrade.


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## erkenbrand

Thanks for asking all the questions, John! I've been wondering the same things myself. I don't think I'm ready to make the TMCC move yet . . . but I know myself and at some point in the next 6 months I'll get there. 

Thanks for all the input Rayins! That helps one heck of a lot.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think I may have to buy some sort of "starter kit" and jump in with both feet. My issue is what is the best choice of a starting lashup.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think I may have to buy some sort of "starter kit" and jump in with both feet. My issue is what is the best choice of a starting lashup.


Hi again,
One of the things I did not mention in my post was the need of the Lionel SW2 for the switches, you probably gathered that at the Lionel website but I did not want to leave that out. Also to get into this as low cost as possible you will have to do some hunting but you may be able to locate a TMCC Base Command set. The list price for the Command set in TMCC is about $170.00 but they are getting scarce, Legacy costs about $350.00 for the Base Command set. Both of these Base Command sets will have the Base Commander and one of the remotes.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

I noticed that the TMCC sets were disappearing, I bid on one on eBay, but it went for more than I was willing to spend. It might make sense to go Legacy since I see that it's compatible with TMCC and will extend into the future.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I took the plunge and I'm looking at a new Legacy controller! Now I have all the parts, but I'm at bit lost as to how to configure them. The Legacy manual is pretty sparse on how to get the CAB2 to recognize the TMCC engines. I'm assuming I have to put the engine in Program mode, but what do I do next? 

My legacy engine is sans manual, so maybe that's the missing link?


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## erkenbrand

Good luck, John! I'm looking forward to learning a lot as you sweat your way through it. ;-)

BTW: Where did you pick up the Legacy controller?


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## gunrunnerjohn

I found it on-line for $269, the cheapest price I could find anywhere. That was at www.legacystation.com

The interesting part was they also had it listed in a different place for $309, but when I did a search using Google, it found the page with the cheaper price. Since they shipped it at that price, I guess it was valid!


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## rayins

Did you buy just the controller or did you get the base with it? Without the Command base you will not be able to address your engines.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

Clearly, I bought the system with the command base and the CAB2 controller.  I'm dense, but not that bad yet. 

It appears that all I have to do with the TMCC engines is put them in program mode and then program them to the correct ID#, right?

I'm confused about using the Powermasters with the Legacy, it appears I might need the Powermaster bridge as well. I have conventional engines that I was going to run on different track segments. Is the Powermaster bridge required as well?


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I found it on-line for $269, the cheapest price I could find anywhere. That was at www.legacystation.com
> 
> The interesting part was they also had it listed in a different place for $309, but when I did a search using Google, it found the page with the cheaper price. Since they shipped it at that price, I guess it was valid!


If you do need help programing the engines and you don't have a manual for the engine you can download and print a manual at ERR for one of the commanders they sell. Most all the engines or driver boards program the same way.
Ray


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Clearly, I bought the system with the command base and the CAB2 controller.  I'm dense, but not that bad yet.
> 
> It appears that all I have to do with the TMCC engines is put them in program mode and then program them to the correct ID#, right?
> 
> I'm confused about using the Powermasters with the Legacy, it appears I might need the Powermaster bridge as well. I have conventional engines that I was going to run on different track segments. Is the Powermaster bridge required as well?


Yes you will need the Powermaster Bridge with Legacy to address the Powermasters. Sorry didn't mean to imply you were dense. That is a fantastic price!
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

No apology necessary, for this particular topic, I'm a little dense, just not that dense.  I was trying to buy the old CAB1 and base on eBay, but they kept going for $170-180 used with no warranty. That's when I started thinking about the Legacy and just moving up for the new one. Of course, that's before I realized that I'd need more stuff to link it all together. 

Looking forward to getting all of this running, but none of my TMCC engines like the O27 platform. My new layout will be straight O31, but I have to paint the basement first before I can start building that. 

I'm going to setup a temporary track just to work the bugs out of all this stuff... 



I ordered the PowerMaster Bridge, I finally found a description of why I needed it. Apparently, the CAB1 is a 27mhz device, and the CAB2 is a 2.4ghz device. The bridge just converts them so they can talk to the Powermasters on 27mhz.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> No apology necessary, for this particular topic, I'm a little dense, just not that dense.  I was trying to buy the old CAB1 and base on eBay, but they kept going for $170-180 used with no warranty. That's when I started thinking about the Legacy and just moving up for the new one. Of course, that's before I realized that I'd need more stuff to link it all together.
> 
> Looking forward to getting all of this running, but none of my TMCC engines like the O27 platform. My new layout will be straight O31, but I have to paint the basement first before I can start building that.
> 
> I'm going to setup a temporary track just to work the bugs out of all this stuff...
> 
> 
> 
> I ordered the PowerMaster Bridge, I finally found a description of why I needed it. Apparently, the CAB1 is a 27mhz device, and the CAB2 is a 2.4ghz device. The bridge just converts them so they can talk to the Powermasters on 27mhz.


Once you have it in operation I guarantee you will love it.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I think I have most of the pieces, just sorting out the issues.

One thing that I've read more than once, people complaining on a derailment killing their TMCC and/or sound. Have you experienced this? Is it advisable to have a better circuit breaker than is found on an older ZW or KW transformer?

The non-electronic stuff is bulletproof, so I've not had those worries before.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, I think I have most of the pieces, just sorting out the issues.
> 
> One thing that I've read more than once, people complaining on a derailment killing their TMCC and/or sound. Have you experienced this? Is it advisable to have a better circuit breaker than is found on an older ZW or KW transformer?
> 
> The non-electronic stuff is bulletproof, so I've not had those worries before.


I have had quite a few derailments and have not had a problem like that but I am running two rail American Flyer. The chassis on my engines are isolated from track power so that may have something to do with it. All of my tracks also have Powermasters and they are protected with an internal circuit breaker and an in line fuse. The only time I fried a board was on one of my conversions, I purchased a can motor conversion kit for my Baldwin and the motor was defective and locked up. The board went up in smoke, after that I added two amp mini automotive fuses in the circuit of that engine as a precaution. It was also the last can motor conversion I will do. Most of my trains are post war AF and Digital Dynamics makes a four amp ac board which I will use from now on.
Both DD and ERR have ac and dc boards rated at up to eight amps. I'll stick with my open frame motors in the older engines and use the dc boards in engines that I convert that come from the factory with the can motors in them.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

Once I get things running, I'm planning on converting a couple of the conventional engines to TMCC using the stuff from The Electric Railroad Company. I may or may not go for the add-on RailSounds boards, they're pretty pricey.

I'd like to find add-on electrocouplers for the engines I convert as well, that seems to be a bit of a challenge.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Once I get things running, I'm planning on converting a couple of the conventional engines to TMCC using the stuff from The Electric Railroad Company. I may or may not go for the add-on RailSounds boards, they're pretty pricey.
> 
> I'd like to find add-on electrocouplers for the engines I convert as well, that seems to be a bit of a challenge.


I just checked the Lionel website and they have some elctrocoupler kits available but they cost $29.95 per kit.


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## rayins

What is kind of nice is that if you desire you can add sound at a later time you don't have to dump all the money at one time. My first three engines did not get sound for a year.


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## gunrunnerjohn

rayins said:


> I just checked the Lionel website and they have some elctrocoupler kits available but they cost $29.95 per kit.


Where did you find that on their site? I find their search to be useless!


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Once I get things running, I'm planning on converting a couple of the conventional engines to TMCC using the stuff from The Electric Railroad Company. I may or may not go for the add-on RailSounds boards, they're pretty pricey.
> 
> I'd like to find add-on electrocouplers for the engines I convert as well, that seems to be a bit of a challenge.


You might try some of the dealers listed at ERR if you are interested in sounds, I was able to locate some of the sound commander 2 boards that ERR used to make. They sell for about $50.00 to $55.00 per board depending if you want steam or diesel.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Where did you find that on their site? I find their search to be useless!


I went to their sets and products page and typed in electrocouplers and the kits were at the lower part of the page


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## rayins

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Find...CatalogID=&CollectionID=&searchWithin=Current


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## gunrunnerjohn

Never mind, I found them. They're way out of production, they last appears in the 2000 catalog!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Dug out my TMCC engine and slapped together a little oval of track to test, got the Legacy controlling the locomotive. Still having issues figuring out the operation of the controller, and I discovered that one of my engine's lights was out.  More to come for sure, but at least the rig works.


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## gunrunnerjohn

BTW, found the electrocouplers for the engine on eBay, and discovered that my GP-9 powered unit didn't have electrocouplers either, and I scored a package of two sets for $16, not too bad! I found the full kit for the unpowered unit with the board and couplers for $30, also pretty good. As soon as they come in, I'm all set to upgrade both units.


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## erkenbrand

Congratulations! It's good to see that the rig is working. What difficulties are you finding with the operation of the controller?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Apparently, it's just figuring out how to convince the train to change directions and things like that.  I've only tried one locomotive on it so far, and it may be an issue with that engine. It's light doesn't work, and it also doesn't seem to function at all in conventional mode, which is not right. However, once I programmed it's ID into the controller, it woke up. It's almost like it gets stuck in some odd mode, or maybe I'm just putting it there. I had it functioning normally later, and I'm not sure what I did. The Railsounds are neat, and I have an electrocoupler update coming for it so I can disconnect it from the controller. I'll try a different TMCC engine on it tomorrow, got to pick up my grandson soon... 

I'm sure once I have used it a while it'll become second nature. I am glad I went for the Legacy, it seems like a nicer controller than the original CAB1 TMCC rig. Of course, I don't have any Legacy locomotives, so I can't use some of those features, but maybe someday when the credit card cools back down. :laugh:


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## Briantrain

*Legacy command with conventional trains*

Can you run conventional trains with the legacy command center or will it cost alot to upgrade the trains. We are building a layout that is 14x 20 with a walk way. We are trying to find out what way to go, with a legacy or a tmcc.


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## rayins

Briantrain said:


> Can you run conventional trains with the legacy command center or will it cost alot to upgrade the trains. We are building a layout that is 14x 20 with a walk way. We are trying to find out what way to go, with a legacy or a tmcc.


You can run conventional trains with Legacy and with TMCC. For Tmcc I use the Powermasters powered by my vintage A F transformers. I have Legacy and TMCC co-existing on my layout so I run conventional with TMCC controllers. To run with Legacy you would need a Powermaster bridge for the Powermasters or I believe a Powerhouse though I am not sure of the name. There are several websites that can help you determine exactly what you need and will answer a ton of question for you.
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

There are configurations that you can run a conventional locomotive with a Legacy or TMCC CAB-1 controller. Specifically, you use either a TPC or a PowerMaster to control the track power from the handheld. Of course, that track segment is dedicated to running one conventional locomotive at a time. The advantage of command/control is the ability to run multiple locomotives on a single track segment.

Upgrading conventional locomotives will cost about $100 for control, and another $100 for RailSounds.

For Legacy using a PowerMaster, you must have a PowerMaster Bridge. The PowerHouse is just a fixed voltage transformer, there is no intelligence in those. The PowerMaster Bridge is not needed for the TMCC CAB-1 as it transmits directly to the PowerMaster Bridge.


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## rayins

gunrunnerjohn said:


> There are configurations that you can run a conventional locomotive with a Legacy or TMCC CAB-1 controller. Specifically, you use either a TPC or a PowerMaster to control the track power from the handheld. Of course, that track segment is dedicated to running one conventional locomotive at a time. The advantage of command/control is the ability to run multiple locomotives on a single track segment.
> 
> Upgrading conventional locomotives will cost about $100 for control, and another $100 for RailSounds.
> 
> For Legacy using a PowerMaster, you must have a PowerMaster Bridge. The PowerHouse is just a fixed voltage transformer, there is no intelligence in those. The PowerMaster Bridge is not needed for the TMCC CAB-1 as it transmits directly to the PowerMaster Bridge.


Thanks for the correction, Track Power Controller
Ray


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## gunrunnerjohn

You can use the PowerMaster as well. The TPC will work with either a CAB-1 or Legacy, it's connected directly to the serial output of the command base. The PowerMaster gets it's commands via the 27mhz from the CAB-1 or PowerMaster Bridge.


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## Big Mike

john, did you figure out how to change directions or turn your lite on yet?

you know I have been using the cab 2 Legacy 3.1 v for some time now,and reading some of these post,I see some things that are not necessary,or that may confuse you. pm me if you want help ..........mike


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## Briantrain

Is it good to use a TMCC Direct Lockon if you are using a power Master.


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## Briantrain

Thank you for all of your help. We would like to know if the bell, whistle and horn work in conventional mode with the TMCC.


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## hunt4cleanair

Hope you don't mind me jumpin in here...newbie to the forum but oldtimer to model trains. Dad got me an American Flyer when I was 2...gave it away as a teen and have regretted it since. Now a Lionel guy.

got the bug about a dozen years ago. Got a layout setup, GP9 TMCC and all that stuff. Room I had it set up in...well too much humidity and track corroded and wouldn't work. So put it up for a dozen years. Now, got my nephew a basic set and got the itch so picked up some Fastrack and have everything laid out on the floor...trying to get it operational. 

So I've got a PowerMaster, PowerHouse and command base all wired correctly but both my conventional non-TMCC engine run at full speed and can't get CAB-1 to control it. Same with the GP9 that is TMCC compatible. It derailed a few times due to speed and now it just grunts and puffs. But it did not respond to CAB-1 commands. 

Command base red light flashes when the CAB buttons are pressed but fail to direct commands to track. I downloaded the instructions from Lionel to restore TMCC functions as a next step. Appreciate other suggestions.


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