# Catenary woes, and questions



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

WOES;
I have been trying to make more catenary for my Milwaukee Road based model railroad. Originally I made a bit of it from .006" steel music wire. The wire was stretched tightly on a homemade jig, consisting of Atlas track nails mounted on a wooden plank. The wires were soldered together. The resulting product looked good, and was only a bit over scale size. It was also a major P.I.T.A. to build. Now I find that it is coming apart, as the steel wire never soldered well. Frankly, I was surprised that it soldered at all.
Things have also changed in the years since I made this stuff. I have gone DCC on the layout. This negates any need for electrically live overhead wire. The electric helper and the road engine can be individually controlled by DCC through the rails. The catenary will be only for appearance.
I've gotten older. My eyes don't see as well, and my hands shake at times. Building with such small wire, is now much more difficult. 
So, I tried bigger, copper wire. That solders well, but the end product is rough looking, tends to kink, and is still a P.I.T.A.
to solder together.
So, why not buy catenary? Because I'm not a millionaire, and I'd have to be to buy sufficient catenary to equip even my fairly small railroad.
So much for my woes, now for some questions. 

QUESTIONS; 

1) Does anyone on the forum know the name, and manufacturer of a product used to string miniature power/phone wires on scale telephone poles? It is elastic, cloth or plastic material. I've read of it being used, but I don't know much about it.

2) Are there any other traction modelers out there who have dealt with this problem?

3) Any suggestions for alternate material? Thread is obvious, but how would I glue, or otherwise firmly attach, it to itself? The attachment points would be many, and the glue should not create lumps, or other unrealistic visual effects. Also any attachments should be strong and relatively easy to make, since I will need to make hundreds of them.

4) I also considered mono-filament plastic fishing line. Again how to attach it to itself. Melt/welding it together should be possible, but difficult to control as precisely as needed for something so small.
ACC/super glue might work, but making many attachments neatly, and without gluing the stuff to my fingers, would be a problem.

Any help appreciated;

Traction Fan


----------



## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Hi traction fan,
I remembered a similar discussion in the HO forum. Someone suggested Berkshirejunction.com. I have not personally tried their products. I'm not up to that level of modeling yet, but hope that helps.
Dan


----------



## PhillipL (May 5, 2012)

Viessman makes all kinds of accessories such as catenary, road crossing and signals. They may offer what you are looking for.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

My wife has 3M elastic thread that is 0.75mm thick. Runs about $12 for a spool (100 yd, I think) at our local millworks store. As far as I know, it is available in black and white. 

I think that might work very nicely.


----------



## dinwitty (Oct 29, 2015)

check the east penn site and mrrwarehouse, Brian weisman, you need phosphur bronze wire, perhaps nickel silver coated.

I may be in DCC but will still do live overhead and yes I am older, but I use closeup glasses or magnifiers when I need.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are HO precast overhead frogs, crossings and hangers
as well as the correct wire to use for your overhead that are available commercially. I used them for
my St. Louis Street car model with a 'live' overhead that used
trolley pole for contact.. You might find a dealer for them through the East Penn site. It is a well known Streetcar group.

If you use a pantagraph instead of trolley pole the
overhead would be easier since the special frogs would
not be necessary.

Don


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*east penn site?*



dinwitty said:


> check the east penn site and mrrwarehouse, Brian weisman, you need phosphur bronze wire, perhaps nickel silver coated.
> 
> I may be in DCC but will still do live overhead and yes I am older, but I use closeup glasses or magnifiers when I need.


dinwitty;

I'm not familiar with "the east Penn site", do you have a web address/link for them? Is Brian Weisman on the same site, or if not, do you have an address for him? Glad to hear that you are able to use DCC in your live overhead. What scale, and what size wire, are you using. I model in N scale and am using .006" Dia. wire. I hear you about the magnifiers! I'm a reading glasses and Optivisor man too!

Thanks for your advice;
Traction Fan


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Too big?*



DonR said:


> There are HO precast overhead frogs, crossings and hangers
> as well as the correct wire to use for your overhead that are available commercially. I used them for
> my St. Louis Street car model with a 'live' overhead that used
> trolley pole for contact.. You might find a dealer for them through the East Penn site. It is a well known Streetcar group.
> ...


 Thanks for the reply Don. Since I model in N scale, those parts
would be too big for my railroad. The good news is that the Milwaukee's heavy, main-line electrics all used pantographs, no trolley poles. So, as you said, I won't need them.

regards;
Traction Fan


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Web address?*



PhillipL said:


> Viessman makes all kinds of accessories such as catenary, road crossing and signals. They may offer what you are looking for.


 Philip;

Thanks for the response. Do you have a website address, or link for Viessman?

Traction Fan


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Maybe too late, but I was looking at my 2015 Walthers catalog last night, and I noticed that Rapido was offering pre-wired utility poles, plus spools of spare wire. I don't see it under their latest offerings, but perhaps you could find it somewhere (eBay?).

Edit: Just noticed / reminded that you were in N scale. Those were HO... but it might be worth checking.


----------



## dinwitty (Oct 29, 2015)

http://www.eastpenn.org/

http://eastpenn.org/manuf_list.htm

26 gauge wire

I didnt know you were in N scale, don't kn ow how much live overhead N scale there is.
The keep alive features for DCC should help the cars rolling.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Thank You All*

My thanks go to all the nice folks who responded to my catenary questions. After trying several materials, I came back to real wire. I bought some 28ga. and some 26ga. copper, magnet wire. The larger 26ga. works well for me. It is small enough to look decent, and strong enough not to break easily.(as the 28ga. did, a lot!)
The only problem with this wire is getting the shellac? insulation off the outside. After trying several solvents, solvent-wetted emery paper, and burning it off with a propane torch. I ended up clamping one end of an eight foot length piece of wire in a vise; and sanding it of with 220 grit sandpaper. Laborious, and causes the occasional break; but it works. 
I'll have to search for un-insulated 26ga. copper wire. All Electronics.com, and the local surplus store only have the insulated kind.

Again Thanks

Traction Fan


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

If you're not looking for a conductive wire, I had an experience over the weekend that might help.

I was trying to replace the picture wire on a couple of old paintings we have. So I bought a spool of new wire at the hardware store and started trying to thread it through the eyelets. Dang stuff wouldn't stay braided long enough to get through the eyelet! I saw this thread this morning and was inspired.

You might try grabbing some of it and unbraiding it. Based on my experience, it should be really easy to do, and the individual strands are really fine. It might even be conductive enough, depending on what it's made out of. It's also silver, not copper colored; don't know whether that would matter to you or not.

Just a thought!


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Picture hanging wire*



CTValleyRR said:


> If you're not looking for a conductive wire, I had an experience over the weekend that might help.
> 
> I was trying to replace the picture wire on a couple of old paintings we have. So I bought a spool of new wire at the hardware store and started trying to thread it through the eyelets. Dang stuff wouldn't stay braided long enough to get through the eyelet! I saw this thread this morning and was inspired.
> 
> ...


 CTValley;

Thanks for the kind thought. The wire you found is likely steel, since it was braided, and intended to hang pictures. I am satisfied with the 26ga. copper wire I have now. I may have "done you wrong" by telling a newbie that you used tortoise switch machines, and could advise him, when needed. I now remember you talking about servos from Tam Valley. Possibly you use both, I don't know. In any case, if he posts any questions about tortoise machines, he should get plenty of responses, since they are so popular.

Regards;

Traction Fan hwell:


----------



## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

What you really want is phosphor bronze wire. Copper is too soft.


----------



## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

About 25 years ago I helped an out of state friend who models the Milwaukee Road build his catenary. We made a couple of jigs so each of us could build the poles and after assembling almost 700 poles, we made the trip to his home where we started installing the poles on his layout in his 2,000 square foot basement. 

He used a phosphor bronze wire for his catenary. I have no idea where he got it as he already had it on hand. It looked great and was easy to work with. After all these years it is still operating fine with only a few repairs necessary over the years, mostly due to 1:1 hands snagging the overhead. 

dave1905 hit the nail on the head.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> CTValley;
> 
> I may have "done you wrong" by telling a newbie that you used tortoise switch machines, and could advise him, when needed. I now remember you talking about servos from Tam Valley. Possibly you use both, I don't know. In any case, if he posts any questions about tortoise machines, he should get plenty of responses, since they are so popular.
> 
> ...


No worries.

Once upon a time (about 12 years ago), I bought 2 of each (Tortoise and TVD servo). I decided I liked the TVD solution better and gave the Tortoises away. The layout I'm building will have 38 micro servo machines, 5 Octo III controllers, and 38 bicolor LED fascia switches. My son's layout has 2 Octo's and 14 servos, most cannibalized from my old layout when we tore it down.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Here is a source of trolley or interurban overhead
wire. It's what many streetcar modellers use.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...52415051842.TRS0&_nkw=252415051842&_sacat=220

Don


----------



## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Electric Locomotives?*

What do use for the Milwaukee Road electrics? I'm not a purist and you possibly could kitbash a reasonable facsimile of a "Little Joe" out of something like F7's, but I know they didn't run on the part you model. I've never seen an n-scale model of anything like a US boxcab or the bipolars except maybe in the European pages of old Walthers catalogs.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Electric Locos*

:laugh:


GNfan said:


> What do use for the Milwaukee Road electrics? I'm not a purist and you possibly could kitbash a reasonable facsimile of a "Little Joe" out of something like F7's, but I know they didn't run on the part you model. I've never seen an n-scale model of anything like a US boxcab or the bipolars except maybe in the European pages of old Walthers catalogs.


 GN fan;

My plan is to scratch build brass bodies and use them on Kato diesel mechanisms. I have one Bipolar, a brass import from long ago. My starkly limited roster also includes a couple of Kato's Japanese prototype electric "boxcabs" which can stand in for their American cousins until they arrive. (Don't hold your breath on that one!)
Like what you have reported about yours, a lot of my layout is in the, "dreaming about it", "working on it", and "I have a model of that to build someday", stages.
The Little Joes actually did run on the coast division; briefly. They made tryout runs in 1948. The rigid wheelbase of the Joes did not do the super sharp, 10 degree curves (translates to 24" radius in N-scale! Sharp?) of the coast division any favors, and vise versa. Also the Little Joes were designed for high speed and you couldn't get up to anything remotely resembling high speed on a track plan a snake could have laid out. After their brief appearance, the Little Joes migrated east to the Rock Mountain Division, which, despite its name, included hundreds of miles of straight, relatively flat, main line. Here the Joes could haul @ss, and heavy freight/passenger trains at up to 70mph. And they lived happily ever after until June 1974 when the plug got pulled on the whole electrification. My time line doesn't go past the 1950s. 
In my modeled world the electrics will run forever! This will include a Little Joe, body already made/at least started, from diesel cab units. Mechanism already made, by Kato, in the form of a Pennsy GG-1, which has a good start on a Joe's wheel arrangement, and is a superb runner.
Now Mister "GN Fan" just where are YOUR electrics? You should have a couple of class-Z, class-Y, and class-W behemoths to get your trains through the cascade tunnel!:smilie_auslachen: Don't forget the two slender N-scale trolley poles on those class-Y's. (They will need trolley wheels that actually roll of course) We gotta pick up that three-phase AC current that I assume you will be using! 

Regards; 

Traction Fan::laugh:


----------



## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Cascade Tunnel motive power*

The de-electrification of the Cascade Tunnel came before the transition of Leavenworth from dying logging town to "Bavarian Village", so I was thinking about "Big Sky Blue" SD45's and F45's pulling the freight and SDP40's and SDP45's pulling the passenger trains. (I actually have HO versions of the F45 and SDP40 - old Athearn "Blue Box" kits.) The F45 was unique to GN and ATSF, the SDP40 to GN and National of Mexico, and the SDP45 to GN and SP. Maybe I could even push the BN 6599 experiment back to the GN era - an EMD test of a 7-axle monstrosity on an nee-GN SDP45. And to be honest about it, if I ever get that far, in an old Kalmbach "Diesel Spotters Guide Update" I have there's a B&W pic of an EMD demonstrator called a "GM6" that's basically an SD40 with a pantograph. GN loved oddball EMD locomotives (the NW3, NW5, the SDP's) - I'm sure they would have bought some of those too.

Also, I came across mention of Solvang, CA in researching Leavenworth - Solvang was the inspiration and the city of Solvang assisted the people of Leavenworth in getting started


----------



## Peter Herron (Jun 30, 2015)

*For the person looking for Veissman........*

..........I believe the poster was referring to Brian Weisman. He has an eBay presence here:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/brianweismanjbw/m.html?item=231695448773&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

He may have what you are seeking. I could not find an e-mail address.

Good luck,

Peter


----------



## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

When I was growing up, I had the opportunity to have had ridden in the cabs of Little Joes and Box Cabs with relatives that worked for the Milwaukee Road. Their electric locomotives were awesome to me. Over time I covered the entire length of the mountain division. 

I didn't realize that you were doing this in N scale. Not much available in N scale. On another forum, there was a member who built his own Little Joes using 3D printing. I did see videos of the unit running. I'll see if I can find th e post. 

Here is the "Harlowtown" switcher. I custom painted a box cab unit after some modification for a guy in O scale. He had a number of Joes and Box Cabs in brass. A real shame no one does them in N scale.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*No Juice Jacks? Sacrilege!*



GNfan said:


> The de-electrification of the Cascade Tunnel came before the transition of Leavenworth from dying logging town to "Bavarian Village", so I was thinking about "Big Sky Blue" SD45's and F45's pulling the freight and SDP40's and SDP45's pulling the passenger trains. (I actually have HO versions of the F45 and SDP40 - old Athearn "Blue Box" kits.) The F45 was unique to GN and ATSF, the SDP40 to GN and National of Mexico, and the SDP45 to GN and SP. Maybe I could even push the BN 6599 experiment back to the GN era - an EMD test of a 7-axle monstrosity on an nee-GN SDP45. And to be honest about it, if I ever get that far, in an old Kalmbach "Diesel Spotters Guide Update" I have there's a B&W pic of an EMD demonstrator called a "GM6" that's basically an SD40 with a pantograph. GN loved oddball EMD locomotives (the NW3, NW5, the SDP's) - I'm sure they would have bought some of those too.
> 
> Also, I came across mention of Solvang, CA in researching Leavenworth - Solvang was the inspiration and the city of Solvang assisted the people of Leavenworth in getting started[/Q
> 
> ...


----------



## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

Here's a link to another forum on a guy that built a Little Joe using 3D printing. Page 6 has a video of it running. Maybe you can get in contact with him. 

http://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/n-scale-little-joe-plastic.74222/

Glad to see another Milwaukee Road modeler.


----------



## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*Cascade Tunnel motive power, part 2*

I made the Spokane-Everett trip once, in the mid-1980's on Amtrak. By the end of the Cascade Tunnel the diesel smell was almost overpowering, but an item checked off my childhood "bucket list" I've given some thought to keeping the electrification around longer for passenger trains. If I wanted to "invent a backstory", I'd have 3rd rail installed in the tunnel circa 1955, and delivery of EMD FL9's (B-A1A F-units that could run off 3rd rail) in 1956-57. The FL9's were built to solve the same problem (smoke in passenger tunnels, in this case under NYC) and in "my application" could have run as diesels from Seattle to the West Portal, and then again as diesels from the East Portal to Spokane. Even today there are automatic doors at both Portals and its pretty remote country, so the safety of 3rd rail shouldn't be an issue.

Oh, and according to Wikipedia, the entire line was converted to 11KV, 25hz single-phase AC in 1927.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

GNfan

Did the railroad actually have diesel/electric hybrid locos for their
passenger trains?

I have been wondering why some railroads running
in the electrified areas of the NE couldn't install
pantagraphs and switching gear on their diesels
so they wouldn't have to change locos running into
Manhattan. When they reach the catenary the
diesel shuts down and the pantagraph rises.
After all, the trucks are simply geared
electric motors on rails.

Don


----------



## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

*FL9's*

No, the Great Northern didn't have FL9's. They did have a history (as I mentioned in a previous post) of buying EMD Locomotives that few other railroads did. They were also only one of two railroads (the other the ATSF) that purchased the Budd "Full Domes". I guess my point is that they "thought outside the box" sometimes in buying equipment.

The GN shut down the electrified section of their main line in 1956 after improvements to the ventilation system in the tunnel, but own my experience some 30 years later was that it was still pretty smelly. The first FL9's were built in 1956-1957. Besides, the prestige of the Empire Builder was a large part of their public image. I'm almost 60 and grew up in Seattle, and I can still remember hearing their advertising slogan "Go . . . Great Northern!". I don't think that my "scheme" to keep the passenger trains electrified thru the Cascade Tunnel after 1956 is that implausible. And modeling an FL9 in any scale shouldn't be that hard - the front half of an F9 "spliced" to the rear end of an E9 should be a reasonable enough facsimile. (Yes, I know, the front trucks should be 2-axle flexicoils, not the F-units Blombergs).

Here is a link to the Wikipedia page about the FL9:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FL9
I first read about the FL9 in a Kalmbach "Second Diesel Spotters Guide" printed in 1985.

It's really just what John Armstrong called "armchair model railroading" for some future layout. But it's fun to talk about it with someone else with a passion for electrification on the west coast.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Very interesting. I felt that they could use overhead
or 3rd rail power, in addition to diesel, and glad to see that it actually happened.

Thank you for the links.

Don


----------



## OceanRailroader (Jul 26, 2016)

I've built Pennsylvania Catenary H beams out of plastic H beams from the hobby shop. They were custom made with insulator chains and were painted sliver or rust colored. I currently have not set them up due to me needing to move first though.


----------

