# 1/4" O-SCALE Scale Modeling of New York City Transit



## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello All:

I am new here and I model both NY City Subway & Elevated Trains (1920's thru 1990's) and Streetcars in 2 RAIL O-SCALE as well as some O Scale mainline Railroad rolling stock. Some freight, some Multiple Unit Cars (PRR & LIRR & SEPTA MP-54's) and some Commuter passenger cars. The Trolleys run under the EL on overhead Trolley Wire. My trolley track "street-type girder rail" I hand fabricate. The Trolleys, and EL & Subway cars have full accurate, authentic interior seating and details, and scale proper underbody equipment and trucks. The EL structures, EL Stations, and EL track is hand built. The EL runs along NY City type buildings and stores of all types. I have been modeling since 1959, and got more into full-scale-modeling by 1964 in HO Scale and by 1984 in 2-rail O SCALE. I am mainly O Scale now but continue to model in HO Scale, mainly mainline railroading. BELOW are just a few of my thousands of photos of the layout and just a small few of my hundreds of models - quite many of them scratch built by me as are the buildings, streetlights, etc.

Are there any other members here who model New York or other big city rapid transit and traction-trolley systems - If so, stop by and tell me your interests

I also model Philadelphia PA Streetcars -- having moved here 51 years ago from NYC. See the top 3 photos of some of those streetcars below.
Regards - Joe F


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Some outstanding modeling there.  
I can hear the city traffic now.
Great attention to detail.

Magic.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Welcome!!!

Very nice. I model in O, but not NYC. Your layout is impressive.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Great modelling! Your photos took me back in time to when I was a kid living in Manhattan. It's as I remember the Third Avenue El with the Surface Transit bus running under it. At about 83rd Street there was a clock on the sidewalk just like you modelled. The Second Avenue El was long gone in the 50's but those cars in the second NYC photo were used on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle in the Bronx and I road in them with my Dad. Great stuff!


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I recall seeing your work (probably on another forum) and being quite impressed. Most of my layout is for trains, but a do have a “streets” loop that occasionally sees some PTC trolley cars.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had to look twice to make sure I wasn't really in the city!  Some great work, very realistic look!


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Great modelling! Your photos took me back in time to when I was a kid living in Manhattan. It's as I remember the Third Avenue El with the Surface Transit bus running under it. At about 83rd Street there was a clock on the sidewalk just like you modelled. The Second Avenue El was long gone in the 50's but those cars in the second NYC photo were used on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle in the Bronx and I road in them with my Dad. Great stuff!


Hello Gramps!

E. 83rd Street !! -- The Yorkville Clock.!! You and I go way back to the mid 1940's to mid 1950's of the time of the 3rd Ave EL in Manhattan. I lived next to the E.84th St Uptown EL station and used the EL a lot. And I took many of my own photos and color slides of it and its Bronx portion between 1954 and 1975. These E. 84th St area photos below will jog your memory. Hope you enjoy them ! I have quite many more photos of the old neighborhood from the 1940's thru 1970's and some up to present times.

BELOW -- East on E. 84th Street to 3rd Avenue and the EL's downtown E.84th Street Local Station in the snow - 1954










BELOW -- Looking north from north end point of Uptown E. 84th St Station Platform -- Southbound local at left passes a northbound express in early evening rush hour - 1954









BELOW -- North a few months after the EL was opened in August 1878 from nearly the same uptown E. 84th Street station. BUT - This view was one EL car length (about 50 feet) south than the photo view above this one. All EL station platforms were extended one car length - without overhead canopy roofs - at each end of the original 3- car canopy roof covered 1877-78 built platforms, between 1912-16 to handle and platform completely, 5 car trains. The downtown Forney steam loco is crossing E. 85th Street towing its 5 car train - all buildings seen here and above in the 1954 upper photo were gone by mid to late 1960's and thereafter - replaced by towering hi-rise apartments. This 1878 view is a little bit before "our" time -- but my own (now late) grandfather told me rode those steam trains on that EL as a kid and teenager in the 1890's !!










BELOW -- Looking north in early 1950's just north of E. 84th Street to the famed and still standing Yorkville clock -- I saw this scene daily for nearly 10 years until the EL was closed & removed between Aug. 5 and Dec. 31, 1955. An uptown MUDC Class Local just departed the E. 84th Street Station and is headed to the E. 89th St Station in distance. is seen. I remember all those stores and my mother and I shopped in a number of them ! This is the Yorkville I miss and is totally gone today -- the EL and ALL building seen are long gone ! (MUDC cars - Multiple Unit Door Control - were convered from as originally built new, open end platform EL Gate Cars, in 1923.)







-

BELOW -- My humble attempt to similarly replicate the "scene along the EL" -- tho I model more newer 1901 Contract 1 EL structure style to handle older and newer rolling stock, steel and wood subway cars. The Manhattan EL's could only handle wooden El cars which were much lighter. I also rode and remember well the GMC and MACK brand "Surface Transit System Corp. red and cream buses under the EL a number of times -- but rode the EL quite much more and enjoyed it better !









BELOW -- Looking west along the south sidewalk to the uptown E. 84th St Local Station - I knew well the two neighbors by the auto at right,. I lived in the next building located to the right of the tan arched window building at right seen on the N/E corner. My Dentist Office then is seen on the 2nd floor windows with his 2 signs in the window. I frequented Mike's soda shop at left more times than I recall !









This all above IS the NYC and old Yorkville area I grew up in and I remember and loved (1940's thru late 1960's) after which the entire City went downhill as we all remember in the 1970-1990's decades. Glad to meet someone who remembers the old neighborhood. I guess you remember all this above also heh - " Gramps " !

PS: I also rode the ex-3rd Ave EL Gate cars with my Uncle a few times on the Dyre Ave Line (ex - NY Westchester & Boston R'way) in 1953 and 1954 -- when they were replaced by 2 car trains of Manual door control old steel Hi-V Subway cars. Seemed like great times way back then !

BELOW -- This is what the same area - looking north from E. 84th Street along 3rd Avenue -- looks like in current times ! Everyone and everything, and all the stores I knew and remember - are long gone now - tho my old building still exists where I grew up. And still standing and in full time keeping operation, is the restored and landmarked (but minus its pawnbroker 3 gold balls) Yorkville clock

Regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Lehigh74 said:


> I recall seeing your work (probably on another forum) and being quite impressed. Most of my layout is for trains, but a do have a “streets” loop that occasionally sees some PTC trolley cars.
> View attachment 566063
> 
> View attachment 566064
> ...


Hello Bob

Thanks for the nice comments ! . I like the attention to details to the buildings on your layout ! It makes those street scenes very nice ! . I have both the Corgi PTC Birney and the PCC Car. I have 2 of the Brooklyn Green & Silver paint scheme versions of the Williams (its really a Baltimore City Transit style Peter Wiit car design) Peter Witt Trolley Car. The elevated Railroad Station on the bridge is a neat idea and has a big city appearance !

regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I had to look twice to make sure I wasn't really in the city!  Some great work, very realistic look!


Hello John !

Good to see you here -- we know each other from 2 other forums for many years -- I recognize your handle name! Thanks for the nice comments !


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Lee Willis said:


> Welcome!!!
> 
> Very nice. I model in O, but not NYC. Your layout is impressive.


Hello Lee

Thanks for the welcome !! . I also model some mainline RR in O Scale 2 rail - Some MU passenger cars, Freight cars and I just got a batch of 6 Heavyweight O-Scale Passenger cars (and one Baggage and one open end obs car) -- along with my 2 rail scale wheels converted William Diesel which I just installed a Bachmann New Haven RR Maginnis Scheme F-7 Body Shell on (removed its PRR shell) -- all these cars are in the black body with orange letter board "NEW HAVEN" RRR Maginnis Paint Scheme ! I need to take some photos of that 10 foot long consist ! I have a number of HO heavyweights in that Maginnis Scheme and matching diesel locos. 

Here are photos of something I built (an old kit with additional kitbashing done) about 15 years ago -- and finally took some recent photos of them -- a PRR Doodlebug with an MU Control Trailer Car -- this done on some railroads to avoid having a turn around or switch back "Y" (or, heh, turntable) at end of the line. I detailed and painted the cars -- and they have full interiors. In background is my scratchbuilt BMT Myrtle Ave EL Q-Type Class "low roof" trailer car in my layup yards

Most all of my mainline railroad is HO Rolling stock Passenger cars (heavyweights & streamliners) in various era paint schemes for roads PRR, LIRR, NYCRR, NHRR,, Reading RR, B&O RR, Metro North, SEPTA and AMTRAK. Along with some freight car rolling stock and numerous Electric, Diesel and a few Steam locos. They run around my train room on module wall shelves 39' x 15' rectangular layout. I enjoy Rapid transit, streetcars and mainline railroading modeling & operation. Heck, you only live ONCE !!

regards - Joe F


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I was impressed with all the track work, but then in one picture you show how you did it with MOW equipment and miniature workers, must have made much easier! Very impressive!


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Magic said:


> Some outstanding modeling there.
> I can hear the city traffic now.
> Great attention to detail.
> 
> Magic.


 Hello Magic 

Thanks also for nice comments. (The city traffic ..) That's a great IDEA !! . Next time I do new videos of my layout for my You Tube (NYC Model Transit System) channel, I should play some taped street scene background sounds !


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

NYC TRANSIT MODELER said:


> Hello Gramps!
> 
> E. 83rd Street !! -- The Yorkville Clock.!! You and I go way back to the mid 1940's to mid 1950's of the time of the 3rd Ave EL in Manhattan. I lived next to the E.84th St Uptown EL station and used the EL a lot. And I took many of my own photos and color slides of it and its Bronx portion between 1954 and 1975. These E. 84th St area photos below will jog your memory. Hope you enjoy them ! I have quite many more photos of the old neighborhood from the 1940's thru 1970's and some up to present times.
> 
> ...


Great photos of the old Yorkville neighborhood. The tan building where your dentist was is still there in the new photo. My Dad worked on Madison Ave and 45th Street and would ride the El home and sometimes I would sit on the steps of the 84th St station and wait for him. We lived on 83rd just west of 1st Ave, the building is gone because in the mid-late 50's the city required heat in all the tenements and the landlord let them condemn it. He let them tear it down and he had it rebuilt but with four apartments on each floor instead of two. Turned out to be a smart move dollar-wise. I went to grammar school in St Stephen's on 82nd St.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> I was impressed with all the track work, but then in one picture you show how you did it with MOW equipment and miniature workers, must have made much easier! Very impressive!



Thanks Hawk !

Here are a few photos of my NYC "EL" type track,work in O Scale 2 RAIL -- for a 3 track EL mainline --- center track for express trains -- regards - Joe F


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Oops, we need that MOW crew over here!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

As a fan of Streetcars since my teen years in St. Louis,
it's a thrill to see such great trolley modeling. Several
years ago, I had an HO
Streetcar layout based on downtown St. Louis. I suspect
that you know that 'girder rail', turnouts and overhead
hardware is available commercially...I used a lot from Orr of Omaha.
Are you aware of our Streetcar club, The Electric Railway
Clubs of Florida? Website is: Electricrailwayclubsofflorida.com.

Don


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Great photos of the old Yorkville neighborhood. The tan building where your dentist was is still there in the new photo. My Dad worked on Madison Ave and 45th Street and would ride the El home and sometimes I would sit on the steps of the 84th St station and wait for him. We lived on 83rd just west of 1st Ave, the building is gone because in the mid-late 50's the city required heat in all the tenements and the landlord let them condemn it. He let them tear it down and he had it rebuilt but with four apartments on each floor instead of two. Turned out to be a smart move dollar-wise. I went to grammar school in St Stephen's on 82nd St.


I have a lot more photos of the old area -- even from the time trolleys were run --

BELOW -- here is one in 1946 looking south from E. 86th (a two-way Crosstown) Street along the EL - taken from the N/E corner of E. 86th & 3rd Ave. ERWIN (on the 2nd floor) Photographer took my childhood and grammar school photos in his studio. The 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 84th St Station is seen at left. This is the original 3 track (as built) 1878 EL Structure nearly 70 years old at time of this photo! THIS was my "3rd Avenue" growing up ! (But with STS buses under the EL instead !)










BELOW -- a similar view -- same day and year









BELOW -- SW from the north side E. 86th Street in 1954 to the SE corner and 3rd Ave El. I got many a hot dog at that Berlin Bar outside window and a Papaya Drink also 
It later became the E. 86th Street Photo shop. The Astoria Hotel it was housed in (the hotel was from the 1860's and predated the EL arrival by 10 to 12 years !!) was torn down around 2005, for what else -- a humongous tall hi-rise apartment building with insane very high rents ! The CLOCK across the street by ADLER Shoes (NW corner E. 85th & 3rd) was removed when the whole block at right was torn down to E.86th Street for the huge tall apt. building used as the opening scene for the very funny TV show "The Jeffersons" !











BELOW -- Same location as the 1954 scene above - but 60 years later ( hey, Gramps, we are dinosaurs !) -- taken at N/E corner E. 86th Street looking SW along 3rd Ave. in 2014










You can "always go back" but you can never "go home" as the saying goes --- "go home" to what it was !

Regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Oops, we need that MOW crew over here!
> View attachment 566106


I just KNEW (heh) someone would catch THAT -- great photos but yet I missed that off-rail wheelset when I took them last year. Well, then it could be called a "company photo" of a minor "derailment" . A quick fix to do !


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

86th St was the "downtown" of Yorkville. It had some great German restaurants, especially the Ideal with its long counter and half flight up to some tables, very no frills but great food. There was a second Berlin Bar on 2nd Ave and 86th, the Papaya King on the NW corner of 86th and 3rd, and five or six movie theatres. A lot more places but I don't have to tell you that. I never saw the streetcars on 3rd Avenue, the tracks were still there but I only remember buses running. Great photos, thanks for sharing.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> 86th St was the "downtown" of Yorkville. It had some great German restaurants, especially the Ideal with its long counter and half flight up to some tables, very no frills but great food. There was a second Berlin Bar on 2nd Ave and 86th, the Papaya King on the NW corner of 86th and 3rd, and five or six movie theatres. A lot more places but I don't have to tell you that. I never saw the streetcars on 3rd Avenue, the tracks were still there but I only remember buses running. Great photos, thanks for sharing.





Gramps said:


> 86th St was the "downtown" of Yorkville. It had some great German restaurants, especially the Ideal with its long counter and half flight up to some tables, very no frills but great food. There was a second Berlin Bar on 2nd Ave and 86th, the Papaya King on the NW corner of 86th and 3rd, and five or six movie theatres. A lot more places but I don't have to tell you that. I never saw the streetcars on 3rd Avenue, the tracks were still there but I only remember buses running. Great photos, thanks for sharing.



Hello Again !

I figured you would enjoy these "blast from the past" photos of our our neighborhood. I am sure you never expected to see THOSE IMAGES here ! I Finding anyone on the net who grew up in our old hood and are in our general age range and remember (per the photos) the way it was - is like looking for a needle in the haystack. Most people I met (a small few) over the past 20 years on line, from the old Yorkville area, grew up in the late 1960's thru 1990's -- long after the area changed so much. Most of the side streets still have the 4 and 5 story "tenement" walk ups from long ago, but quite many have been heavily modernized on the insides...so as to get $2000 to $3000 a month RENT (+ utilities) for one bedroom small apartments. My building was built in 1883 !

-- IDEAL Restaurant -- ate there many times (and the 86th St Horn & Hardart AUTOMAT) both alone and with my dad and an uncle. Here are some photos of it below:

BELOW -- West along South side of E.86th Street towards 3rd Ave. - showing the IDEAL restaurant - sort of a German "diner" - in mid 1970's



















BELOW -- IDEAL Restaurant window sign food special ad in 1970's









BELOW -- is a closer view eastward from 3rd Ave in 1954 to the famed BERLIN BAR & GRILL at S/E corner E.86th ST & 3rd Ave










One uncle managed the LOEW'S E.86th Street Theater for 20+ years -- 1948 thru 1963. I got into the movies free any time I wanted --- just walked in. Was great in hot summer days. My parents and I ate in many of the upscale German and European restaurants of the time - (Heidelberg, Hindenberg, Cafe Geiger, Klein Kondetori, Platzl, Jaeger Haus, Gay Vienna which, heh, was "straight" (on 2nd Ave below 84th St) . Yorkville back then, as you know, and by the ,was like a European city in itself as so many European nationalities lived there speaking so many different (but mainly German(s) ) languages. -- see webpage of photos - some Yorkville restaurant's here: Photos of some Yorkville restaurants in 1950's-60's

Getting more ON TOPIC - WITH Layouts and MODELING --

BELOW is the scratchbuilt model of the famous chain - my Horn & Hardart AUTOMAT I built along the side of my EL Line -




























BELOW -- And a view to the street under the EL with a Third Avenue railway System streetcar - seen from the roof of my Horn & Hardart AUTOMAT










So - as you can see, growing up in Yorkville and NY City shaped my eye for modeling what I grew up with and remember.

regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Yes, the old neighborhood has become very upscale with the old buildings being replaced by high-rises. I tell people I grew up on the fashionable Upper East Side before it became fashionable.  Thanks for the great photos and the trip down memory lane and keep posting photos. You did a fantastic job on the layout with your attention to detail.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

DonR said:


> As a fan of Streetcars since my teen years in St. Louis,
> it's a thrill to see such great trolley modeling. Several
> years ago, I had an HO
> Streetcar layout based on downtown St. Louis. I suspect
> ...


Hello DON !

Thanks also for the comments on my streetcars etc. I also modeled streetcars in HO Scale for my HO Scale "under the EL" trolley system

Dick Orr I knew well -- and of his Orr Model Trolley girder rail . Only got some small switch track special work decades ago -- but most else I made myself, including non-insulated various angle crossovers for both the EL track and streetcar track. I make my own girder rail because I needed plenty of it (about 200 hundred of so feet lineal length) and it was far much cheaper to hand build my own track cost wise. I "am" a modeler, heh. I think there were a couple of other small mfgr's of model street railway girder rail & special work. 

I wanted to check your Trolley club via your posted LINK to the Florida site. I copy pasted it exactly and put it in address bar. It would not open - a page came back with: ERROR -- Website could not be found ! 

Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

With our chatter about the old neighborhood I forgot to ask about your layout. What is the length of your El trackwork and how many trains can you run at the same time? I remember during non-rush hours the El stored out of service trains on the center express track.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> With our chatter about the old neighborhood I forgot to ask about your layout. What is the length of your El trackwork and how many trains can you run at the same time? I remember during non-rush hours the El stored out of service trains on the center express track.


Hello Gramps (heh)

Yes, the layup on the 3rd Ave EL was done only on center track in the Bronx -- usually starting at and thru the E. 156th Street Station, - around the sweeping " S " curve the EL and 3rd Ave did at E. 159th Street where 3rd Ave was then aligned to continue one block east at E. 160th Street (around the famous Bronx Court house Bldg,) -- and continue its run north to Fordham Road (where 3rd Ave itself ends). -- By 1950 the layups started at E. 161st Street Station and continued north -- with a few small breaks between the long lines of layup express trains at night and off peak hours.

The one side of my O-Scale NY EL system runs a straight 39 feet long from front to end wall of trainroom --- the other opposite side of the layout runs about 18' long including the " U " shaped curved at each end of the mainlines (basically connecting both halves of a long rectangular mainline. There is an operator "center aisle" about 28 inches wide in the center between the two halves of the layout inside that long rectangular section. You duck under any modular section (street with EL above and buildings on sides of each module) to get to it. I can safely run 3 trains (2 locals and one express) at a time as well as one or two trolleys on each of the two trolley tracks UNDER the EL. My local stations fit a 6 car train of pre-war IRT Subway or EL IRT cars -or wooden BMT EL cars - and a 5 car train of post war IRT R-type "SMEE" class (post 1948 era) trains. My express stations can hand 7 car trains.

Here is a photo I took way back in 1990 of the EL layout with a mid day "long layup" of EL cars seen on the center track. I do use the express track to get around local tracks when I have a "work train" working on either of the local tracks (ie: working as posed as doing such for photo ops!) The whole huge sysyem is built on modular layout section (The Module framing and construction with the street and the trolley tracks and their trolley system wiring portion was built to strict East Penn Traction Club Module Standards. It takes an hour to dis-assemble it all and we took it to many local train shows and meets in a 24' long rented box truck - and it can hook the trolley section to any part of an East Penn Club layout at trains shows. That was done many times with their trolleys (and my own trolley) running on my trolley lines (under the EL!) and going back out the the EPTC members modules










PS: For your interest in the Ideal Restaurant - where we both ate great German based meals when we were young long ago - I found these three other rare photos I had of the IDEAL E.86th Street diner type German restaurant - these BELOW taken between 1950-55.

BELOW -- IDEAL founder and owner Werner Humbert seen at the cash register. I remember him well as he did it all, cashier, cook, sometimes waited tables.
The man behind him I remember - was he the one with the bad eye? He was there for decades also as a cook









BELOW _ Owner Werner seen at the end of the counter bear the entrance from E. 86th Street - 1950's
The counter and stools and cooking area was at the right side of the place, and small tables on the left along ther north wall - it was a long and narrow type store - there was also an upstairs dining area.









BELOW -- view from E. 86th Street sidewalk to the narrow small front of the restaurant -- you walked into a small entryway and as seen at its left side, the store became wider some feet further back (southward) off the left edge of the photo - strange construction. I can still smell the German cooking and _Sauerbraten_ and red cabbage, heh !









regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Your layout is very impressive, thanks for the update and photos.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Your layout is very impressive, thanks for the update and photos.


Hello Gramps:

Glad you enjoyed it - Try these few videos BELOW (links to) of the layout --- these are the trains we rode on the 3rd Ave EL. They were former Open Platform Gate cars converted in 1923 with enclosed vestibules and outside-sliding vestibule doors - called Multiple Unit Door Control "MUDC Cars. The videos sort of bring the layout to life a bit more !

Rooftop view - Local entering & leaving a local station (a 1998 shot VHS-C video tape) 

View from local platform as Express Train of MUDC IRT EL cars passes by

3rd Floor window view - Local leaving EL Station

Street view under El as express passes overhead and trolley approaches and passes on street

Street view - local train above leaves station and trolley approaches & passes

regards - Joe F


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## Refugee (Oct 2, 2019)

Howdy Joe, nice to see you posting here!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

NYC TRANSIT MODELER said:


> Hello All:
> 
> I am new here and I model both NY City Subway & Elevated Trains (1920's thru 1990's) and Streetcars in 2 RAIL O-SCALE as well as some O Scale mainline Railroad rolling stock. Some freight, some Multiple Unit Cars (PRR & LIRR & SEPTA MP-54's) and some Commuter passenger cars. The Trolleys run under the EL on overhead Trolley Wire. My trolley track "street-type girder rail" I hand fabricate. The Trolleys, and EL & Subway cars have full accurate, authentic interior seating and details, and scale proper underbody equipment and trucks. The EL structures, EL Stations, and EL track is hand built. The EL runs along NY City type buildings and stores of all types. I have been modeling since 1959, and got more into full-scale-modeling by 1964 in HO Scale and by 1984 in 2-rail O SCALE. I am mainly O Scale now but continue to model in HO Scale, mainly mainline railroading. BELOW are just a few of my thousands of photos of the layout and just a small few of my hundreds of models - quite many of them scratch built by me as are the buildings, streetlights, etc.
> 
> ...


Beautiful! Excellent modeling!

Traction Fan 🙂


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Beautiful! Excellent modeling!
> 
> Traction Fan 🙂



Hi Traction Fan ! Thanks much for the comment ! Appreciated ! What do you model (Scale and traction type? ) From your icon image - I suspect Chicago region trolleys, Subway & EL and Interurbans. I have always been a big fan of the Interurbans, North Shore (& South Shore Lines) etc. ! 

regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Refugee said:


> Howdy Joe, nice to see you posting here!


Hello Refugee (ie: from another / other / forums, heh)

Thanks for the welcome !. Seems like a very nice place here -- but not much transit-traction modeling action. Perhaps more will develop. 

However, I also very much like (and model) mainline and commuter passenger (and some freight) railroading - a bit in O Scale but much heavier in HO Scale (for very long train consist running and more track miles for less space needed for HO !) I also operate an HO railroad measuring 39' x 15 feet rectangular (around the room modular shelves layout)

Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

NYC TRANSIT MODELER said:


> Hello Gramps:
> 
> Glad you enjoyed it - Try these few videos BELOW (links to) of the layout --- these are the trains we rode on the 3rd Ave EL. They were former Open Platform Gate cars converted in 1923 with enclosed vestibules and outside-sliding vestibule doors - called Multiple Unit Door Control "MUDC Cars. The videos sort of bring the layout to life a bit more !
> 
> ...


Great videos and very realistic sound!


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

A few new NIGHT SCENE photos along my EL Line ...........

BELOW -- View from rooftop looking down at an IRT train of postwar R-type "SMEE" cars at a local station on the EL











BELOW -- Track walker view from local track catwalk to a local train of IRT SMEE class R-type cars in a local station on the EL. Train on center express track is in night time layup.











BELOW - view from end of opposite local station platform showing 1st car of an IRT Local stopped at local station on the EL.










BELOW - view from a Local Station platform on the El as a train is seen on the center express track











BELOW -- view from the end of a local station platform on the EL to street scene along the EL











BELOW - view from front of local train which has departed a local station on the EL










BELOW -- Street level view on the cobblestone paved Avenue under the EL, showing one of the 4 stairways to the above EL Local Station










BELOW - View from end of a local station platform as a train of pre-war IRT Low-V class Subway Cars rounds a curve as it is about
to enter the station











BELOW - View from the front of an IRT Local train entering a local station with a train of pre-war IRT Low-V Cars stopped at the
opposite station platform











Hope you enjoyed these scene along my EL at night time ! Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Great photos!


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Nice lighting. You kept it subdued, and not just running the LED's at max!


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Lemonhawk said:


> Nice lighting. You kept it subdued, and not just running the LED's at max!



Hello !

Thanks for the appreciation. One note: The ONLY LED lights are in the IRT SMEE (postwar) subway cars -- I used florescent color value LEDS. Their end headlights and route classification (colored) lights are incandescent lamps. ALL the buildings have incandescent lamps also 

The building lights at this time and as originally lighted long ago, are actually those small pea sized clear Christmas Lights from decades ago. I cut them from their original string of 50 bulbs (designed to run that way on 110VAC in series) -- and I wired them up in series in either 4,5 or 6 bulbs, to run on 12 to 13VDC inside the buildings - depending on where they were needed and size (height) of buildings. The building lights are run from one large power pack so I can raise or lower their voltage to more realistic appearance and brightness. By keeping their brightness levels at between 7 to 9 volts max per 4,5,.6 lamps in series, and thus being much below the level where they would blow (14 vdc for the series) - the bulbs have lasted many years and none have ever blown out. 

I only light the buildings for "daytime or nightime" effect still photography shooting, ,layout visitors, and movie run night filming. All other times, all lights are off, except perhaps the station lighting.

The station canopy-roof lights at THAT time (of the upper photos) were individual 1.5VDC clear incandescent mini-bulbs which I wired in 6 bulbs series strings to run on 12VDC. About 2 years ago I replaced all Station "bulb" lights with strings of very tiny square LED lights of the incandescent color, running on 12VDC .These are run off a very small power pack (cigarette pack size) that allowed control of their brightness . And provide more even lighting on platforms. Here are two recent photos with the new station lighting.



















The pre-war IRT Low-V Subway cars have incandescent bulbs in them to replicate the original bulbs in the prototype cars. Here BELOW is an IRT Low-V (aka Low Voltage Control controllers) train at a local station as seen from opposite platform, which itself still has its pre-led original incandescent bulbs in the roof.











BELOW - View from track level of approaching IRT Low-V Class local train with its incandescent lighting.









Scenes like these could be replicated in Philadelphia in 1920's thru 1960 on their EL, and Chicago & NYC EL's in the 1920's-thru late 1960's !

Regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Great photos!



Hello Gramps !

Thanks -- just a we remember long ago back in the day in our old home city and neighborhoods. 

Do you remember this building (Photo below - 1941) on the N/E corner E. 83rd St & 3rd Ave, along the "EL", with the corner restaurant / coffee shop run by a somewhat snarky tall, portly European blond haired older woman !?? I ate in it a few times -- just south of the uptown 84th St EL station. The building with the ones to its left (north) was torn down in I think 1970 or so, for another huge hi-rise apt. complex... St. Elizabeth of Hungary RC Church was to the right about 1/4 of the way east down the block on that same side. I went there also on many Sundays..
regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I don't specifically remember the building in the photo but I do remember St. Elizabeth of Hungary Church. I went to St. Stephen of Hungary on 82nd which had a church and school in one building. The first two floors were the church, the 3rd floor was classrooms, 4th floor was the convent where the nuns lived and the 5th floor was a classroom and the cafeteria.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Well, Gramps, I guess this topic and modeling subject matter has run its course .....


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I hope you keep showing the layout.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps -- re: your reply above --- "I hope you keep showing the layout" ---- . unfortunately, sadly, looks like you are a just a lone majority of only ONE here who does !

regards - Joe F


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

No he's not just the only one who posted.
With over a thousand views someone is looking.
Really am enjoying this thread.  

Magic


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Magic said:


> No he's not just the only one who posted.
> With over a thousand views someone is looking.
> Really am enjoying this thread.
> 
> Magic


I agree with Magic. You have a unique layout and it's interesting.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello Gramps & Magic

OK Guys -- yes, comments appreciated -- I do see 1000 views or so -- so is guess more are viewing it. I guess that means something. I am working on some new projects I will take photos of (rolling stock) and will soon get another posting & photos set up.- at least if only for you two guys, heh ! 


Thanks - regards - Joe f


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Glad to hear it!


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

Magic said:


> No he's not just the only one who posted.
> With over a thousand views someone is looking.
> Really am enjoying this thread.


I also agree and just haven't posted it before.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I think most of us are in awe of what you've accomplished!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The realism of the photos is pretty astounding, that's hard to achieve.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The realism of the photos is pretty astounding, that's hard to achieve.


Hello Gunner John, - Lemonhawk, - Steve R, - Gramps, - Magic !

Thanks for the support and appreciation. The realism is meant to as best as possible in modeling scale - to try to recreate the past and what was. I have seen extreme astounding realism featured in many HO, O scale and O Gauge layouts thru the decades -- mainly mainline railroad type layouts --all which inspired and motivated me to try to attain such higher levels of details and modeling where humanly possible and within the limitations of scale sizes vs: strength. I love it all, Mass Transit, Streetcars, Commuter and long distance passenger rail...

Anyway, below is a bit of my way of replicating a real life event recently this past July. The NYC Transit Museum has a 3 car set of restored (rebuilt back to) Brooklyn EL BMT "Gate Cars" -- the 3 bodies are of the 1200 & 1400 series of the as built new between 1901-1905 as Motor and Trailer car fleet. The bodies all looked the same (5-2-2-5 side window arrangement). Many of these cars were converted in 1938 to enclosed ends, with 2 side sliding entry MUDC control doors, and coupled as Motor-Trailer-Motor (A-B-C) sets. These cars - called Q types (for "Queens NY special service) ran on the then IRT controlled / operated Flushing and Astoria EL lines in Queens, NY, as BMT company Shuttle trains from Queensboro Plaza Station to the two outer terminals, and back.

BELOW - On my EL System, at the right, are seen as newly converted, BMT ex-Gate 1200 & 1400 series Cars called the Q-Types, seen in the NY Worlds Fair colors of 1939-1940. On the actual Flushing & Astoria EL's between 1939 thru 1942, you could see these cars running along with IRT 2nd Ave EL MUDC Cars (mine are seen on the center track) and IRT Steel Steinway class Low-V Subway cars (mine at at left) - as well as with BMT and IRT EL GATE car consists !










The IRT and BMT back in 1938 were private companies, with separate fare collections, with both companies soon purchased in full by the City of NY in June 1940. Between 1950 and 1956, the Q's ran on the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave El as Express train ONLY consists - each set (there were 30 3-car sets) doing one round trip a day (AM and PM). In 1958, they went back to Brooklyn and the BMT "division" and ran on the Myrtle Ave. EL until it closed in Oct. 1969. They were the LAST wooden EL cars in operation in the USA !

ALL were scrapped between 1970 and 1975 -- but a few Q-Type Trailers were kept as "crew rider" work cars, and the final last 3 which still survived into 2000, were basically rotting wood bodies, formerly last used as Pump Train reach cars - and fincally scrapped in 2004. . Another better shape motor car went to a Museum Kingston, NY ( an A motor car) and 4 cars ( 3 motors and one trailer) were kept by the NYCTA Museum, and restored for display. In 1978, 3 of the 4 Q type cars ( the 3 car complete surviving A-B-C set) were extensively REBUILT back to Gate cars in Coney Island Overhaul Shops. Enclosed ends were opened up to the open platform original design, new gates and posts installed, and the twin side doors cut into the bodies in 1938, were removed and new side panels with windows restored (built new into) the bodies as they were back in the as built days in 1901-05. UNFORTUNATELY, the upper clerestory roofs, which were cut down lower in 1961-thru-62 for some new tunnel low clearances on the BMT Division, so the hi-roof El cars cars could still get to and from Coney island Shops, still remained on the museum cars. This was done to ALL the Q type cars during their Myrtle Avenue El services.

Also, their Market lights were still in the IRT upper roof position (done for 3rd Ave IRT EL services in 1950) and the end oversized anticlimber from the Q type rebuilding, still remains. Also, their original link & Pin VD coupler is usually covered by a huge H2A coupler head adapter to couple to standard subway cars for Air & Iron towing.

I made my OWN "museum cars" in O Scale -- all hand built. However, I used 3 different BMT car-body styles for my train; An 800 series center door motor car; A 200 series ex-Kings County Elevated Railroad EL trailer car, and a BMT 1200 series Motor car (which is what the museum car seen in the parade should actually appear like as properly fully restored).

To mimic the parade event of July 6, 2021, where the center trailer museum gate car was diesel-loco towed to a point where it could - in lower brooklyn - be put on a low-boy trailer, and towed by a truck to parade up Broadway for a event - I used my own fully scratchbuilt O-Scale BMT EL gate trailer car and my scratch built TA GE-50 diesel work loco. And somewhat replicated the historic move of the car on my streets ! . The parade was to honor service and health workers for their work during the covid / pandemic period. Here is a news article with loads of photos of the EL Car in the PARADE

For the heroes: 118-year-old subway car once again trekking across NYC --- AND --- Transit Workers Given A Hero’s Welcome Through Canyon of Heroes

BELOW -- my own BMT EL Gate Trailer Car # 237, my scratch-built model of a former Kings County Elevated Railroad 1888-built former steam engine hauled trailer, seen towed by my NYCTA GE-50 diesel loco as it leaves the shadows of the over EL line










BELOW -- The NYCTA (MTA) BMT Gate Trailer Car # 1273 being towed by a TA GE 50 type diesel loco by the Belt Parkway on street and private R-o-W trackage of the South Brooklyn Railway (A TA subsidary) to meet the location where it will be rolled up on a flatbed low-boy trailer for a truck to tow the trailer and El car to Manhattan and the parade route. NOTE the chopped down clerestory roof.
Done to all the Q type EL cars between 1961-and 62. And retained on the re-converted-back to gate-cars Museum three-car set.











BELOW -- A photo of the prototype MTA Transit Museum BMT Gate Trailer Car -- on a flat bed - towed up Broadway Wednesday 7-7-2021










BELOW -- my own BMT EL Gate Trailer Car # 237, my scratch-built model of a former Kings County Elevated Railroad 1888-built former steam engine hauled trailer, seen towed by my NYCTA GE-50 diesel loco as it passes a modern MTA articulated transit bus.










.BELOW -- my BMT EL Gate Trailer Car # 237, my scratch-built model of a former Kings County Elevated Railroad 1888-built former steam engine hauled trailer, seen towed by my NYCTA GE-50 diesel loco - having left the shadows of the over EL line and a passing El train (R-40 cars) as it passes a modern MTA transit bus seen at right.










BELOW -- My own all scratch built 3 car O-Scale BMT EL Gate Car Museum Train - seen in its 1904 BRT Colors and appearance - seen a a layup yard shot.











BELOW -- My "star" car (for the "parade", heh) -- my BMT EL Gate Trailer Car # 237, in its 3 car museum train at home on the El tracks where it belongs











Well, I hope I made this somewhat interesting with a bit of modeling license thrown in with actual recent history -- REGARDS - Joe F


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Really good modeling, and really good phots. 

Thank you for posting


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Great photos and great work on the scratch building! I had seen those various cars over the years but I did not know the history of them. Thanks for the information and the story about the Broadway parade, I was unaware of that.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Great photos and great work on the scratch building! I had seen those various cars over the years but I did not know the history of them. Thanks for the information and the story about the Broadway parade, I was unaware of that.


==========================================================================

Hello Gramps

Well, these are not 3rd Ave EL enclosed-end -vestibule converted MUDC Door cars from the last many years of that EL in 1955-1956, but sounds and running feel and ride are the same.. And are the same sound, ride, feel and look as those IRT Dyre Ave Line shuttle-trains of Open End Platform Gate cars you (and I) rode back in 1953-54 and the ones used on the old original IRT EL's until at least 1950. 

BELOW - Check this video out shot on the BMT Jamaica EL line in summer 2019. In the beginning, you see a train of restored IND R1-9 cars towing the gate cars from the subway and across the Williamsburg Bridge -- to the Jamaica El. They - as wooden body cars - are not allowed to run under power with passengers on their own in subway tunnels (a 1913 ordinance). You can plainly see in the zoom photos at that part of film WHY the roofs were lowered. Note how they match the roof of the IND subway cars. Wooden EL Car roofs ranged from 9" to 13" higher than subway car roofs.
BMT Museum Gate Car train on the BMT Jamaica EL - 2019

Below -- Scenes from the open platform of running train and interior views with passengers (2017)
Riding on open platform - BMT Museum Gate Car EL train - 2017

BELOW -- on BMT Astoria El -- filming from the open platform between two BU Gate Cars on the Museum train - 2009
Riding Astoria Line El on open platform of BU Gate Car Train - 2009

Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

GREAT STUFF! In the mid 60's our family moved from Manhattan to Queens and I worked in lower Manhattan so I rode the Jamaica El many times. There was no center express track so the Transit Authority did a "skip stop" system during rush hour where trains alternated making every other stop until they got to the Broadway Junction (Brooklyn)/East New York station where the center track picked up. In the late 80's I worked in the Queensboro Plaza area and rode the Astoria Line El. Back then it was serviced by the N and R lines but service was so slow riders said the R stood for rarely and the N stood for never.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Well, I am back after getting geared up to attend the 25th East Penn Traction Club Meet at the Allentown, PA., Fairgrounds. Oct. 7th, 8th, 9th, 2021.
So, for those few here who may be interested - the below is for you.

I had 3 of my O-Scale trolley modules set up in one of the O Scale Trolley layouts -- the Relay-Automated-Blocks Trolley Layout
Here are some videos -- links:

Allentown PA EPTC 25th Meet - Trolley Modules At counter # 6:48 thru 7:22 for a few frames I am seen in dark Blue Shirt, grey hair (but of course, heh) facing the camera and putting my cell phone away, and turning and walking to the left towards, and standing near and talking to, the man in the bright GREEN shirt on other side of the modules - with trolleys operating on them.


Here is another video: 



 -- and at counter # 628 thru 651 on the video you see the long 28 feet length of narrow, straight troley modules I and a pal took to the show as set up in the relay-automated-blocks layout.

And this one shows an interurban operating on some of the trolley modules I built: http://www.reighn.com/Edited_Windsplitter_at 2021_Meet.mp4

Here is a Philadelphia Hog Island Route 37 (Delaware County PA) PTC Company trolley car in its 1930's-40's colors seen on my layout around and under my NY City EL. The "EL" in the scenes is supposed to represent the Philadelphia Market Street Elevated Line in West Philly !














































Regards - Joe F


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

That is a good looking setup for that PTC trolley. And it looks realistic for Philly with the other cars driving on the tracks and in the way of the trolleys.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Nice photos as usual. Hope you enjoyed the meet, thanks for posting.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Nice photos as usual. Hope you enjoyed the meet, thanks for posting.


Hello Gramps !

Thanks for the comments !

Well, I was deciding to go or not to go for weeks --- but at last minute Wednesday night agreed to give some of my trolley modules to a pal EPTC member and close neighbor to set up in the Automated Layout on Thursday. So I decided Friday nite to go Saturday and be done with it. Its was a 2 day public show - Fri & Sat.

Well, and as I had suspected it might be -- it was the poorest, lowest attended and participated EPTC show in the 25 years (a show every 2 years) history span of EPTC shows. I was Registered paid entry # 222 at 11:10 AM Saturday -- and only a small percent of dealers were there compared to past shows. We should have had over 600 or more registered paid entrantsI !! I met some old decades long pals and that made the trip worth it -- and even tho the EPTC had the hall until midnight Saturday -- EVERYONE had vacated the place by 6:30PM ! As you can see from the videos -- the vast majority of members and attendees are senior citizens 55-60 and up thru some 85 years old (yeah, that old!!) Very few younger guys in the traction modeling and operating hobby (compared to the mainline railroading hobby)-- a few are seen at that meet.

The same Allentown Fairgrounds was where we had the May 2019 EPTC 24th Meet -- The 2019 Meet was PACKED with attendees, more many more displays and operating layouts and trolley modules, many more exhibitors and more vendors. Of course, many of those then very much older seniors are now 2 years older and that could be a no-show factor due to age and related issues. We moved the 2021 Meet from May to October due to COVID concerns.

Anyway - I took a number of photos myself and here is the FLICKR ALBUM PAGE link I created for them. The last half of the photos seen are taken on my and my pal's modules. 

Allentown PA 25th EPTC Meet - Photos by Joe F

regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Steve Rothstein said:


> That is a good looking setup for that PTC trolley. And it looks realistic for Philly with the other cars driving on the tracks and in the way of the trolleys.



Hello Steve

Thanks also for the comments

Yes, well that is the way it was in NYC when I grew up and in Philly when I moved there long ago. On WIDE streets and Avenues motorists usually avoided the track segments -- except for left turns. Most streets were (still are) 2 operating lanes with a trolley track in each lane and two curbside parking lanes. So its impossible to avoid driving on / along the trolley tracks. One trick was to (and I did many times) get your 4 tires into the groves in the track rails and "ride the rails" for a smooth ride instead of the usual bumpy cobblestone paved avenues. On mild curves my car would steer itself along the curved rails at a slow speed (20, 25 MPH) as the rubber tires pressed into the track flangeways !!!! Philly tracks are 5' 2 1/2" track gauge and that seems to be the spacing for4 tires on the old era 1960's-2000's era huge large size sedans and cars with the so called "wide track" tire spacing ride ! (Remember the marked new "WIDE TRACK PONTIAC" car in ads long ago !!! Many old cars pre-1960 had their tires spaced apart at the standard 4' 8 1/2" railroad track gauge. 

regards - Joe F


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## CarlMac (10 mo ago)

NYC TRANSIT MODELER said:


> Gramps -- re: your reply above --- "I hope you keep showing the layout" ---- . unfortunately, sadly, looks like you are a just a lone majority of only ONE here who does !
> 
> regards - Joe F


Hi Joe fancy meeting you here man we go way back from me seeing all your beautiful b & w photos of your HO scale elevated cars in the pages of Traction & Models magazines and sending you letters of how much I loved your models, then you were building those incredible O scale models. I made some O scale models and even attempted at building a layout which lasted about a year before we had to move and every time I tried to build a layout something always came between me and that goal, I continued to build some models but never again reached layout status. Illnesses and family deaths prevented more plans, at 77 I now only enjoy seeing what others have done and I will always admire you and what you have done for so many modelers who asked for advise in which you gladly gave them. My computer e mail syatem is so crappy I rarely send e mails to the website comcast has failed to correct that problem even my son couldn't figure why the e mails don't go through we'll keep trying though. Question has Subchat stopped operation I can't seem to get through to them, anyway good seeing your great models again Joe.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

CarlMac said:


> Hi Joe fancy meeting you here man we go way back from me seeing all your beautiful b & w photos of your HO scale elevated cars in the pages of Traction & Models magazines and sending you letters of how much I loved your models, then you were building those incredible O scale models. I made some O scale models and even attempted at building a layout which lasted about a year before we had to move and every time I tried to build a layout something always came between me and that goal, I continued to build some models but never again reached layout status. Illnesses and family deaths prevented more plans, at 77 I now only enjoy seeing what others have done and I will always admire you and what you have done for so many modelers who asked for advise in which you gladly gave them. My computer e mail system is so crappy I rarely send e mails to the website comcast has failed to correct that problem even my son couldn't figure why the e mails don't go through we'll keep trying though.
> 
> Question has Subchat stopped operation I can't seem to get through to them, anyway good seeing your great models again Joe.


===============================================================================================================================

Hello Karl (M)

I have been a member here for about 6 months -- joined Sept. 2021. Very nice place here -- run by an admin and pal I know from both Model Train Forum and O Gauge Railroad forums. I figured I would give it a try so I started this 3 page new thread here back in September. Obviously, what you and I have in "interest-common" is not of any major hobby interest here but there are some few readers who enjoy it.
We (NYC Transit).are just a grain of sand section on the entire beach of the national rail hobby, heh! And I can understand that --- its always been that way. As you see, I ran into an old (my) neighborhood "Yorkville" long-ago resident guy (Gramps) here --- and we shared some memories of our days back in that upper east side Manhattan area along the 3rd Ave EL in the 1950's. THAT was a big surprise ! Well, maybe I will re-activate this thread with more content - being you are now here. Spread the word, heh!

We still communicate regularly on my NYC Transit Modelers Group Forum of which you are a member of for about 20 years now. So how are you - the old Queens NY "Fresh Pond / Myrtle Ave EL" guy -- doing ? You can always "drive around" your old Queens neighborhood on "Google Maps Drive thru" system --- its all changed quite much --- especially my Manhattan 3rd Ave "corridor" . At least YOUR part of the Myrtle El still exists and is in operation today --- but with modern rolling stock.

As far as Sub Chat --- I don't bother much with it as you know --- I very rarely post there. Its been OFF LINE and out of service for just over 2 weeks --- came up for a few minutes one or two days over that span -- and then disappears. Its no big loss. Perhaps the Owner Larry F had had his fill of it... as did Dave P with his similar Sub Talk which Dave closed over a decade ago.

Its TIME for YOU to finally start a layout -- even a small one to run your traction cars on. No more excuses. Here are some BMT long ago elevated (model) scenes for you - perhaps to motivate you --- hopefully. Regards - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Karl -- I think you may know what the material below is --- heh ! Regards - Joe F












PHOTO ABOVE - The BMT (former IRT 3rd Ave El expresses from 1950 thru Dec 1956) "Q" Types --- top photo as nearly fresh off the 3rd avenue El (Bronx remaining remnant operation after 5-12-1955 thru 12-16-1956) with their rehab repaints of Burgundy Wine Body and silver roofs, and retaining their original high Clerestory Roofs and roof vents. they looked best then --- as seen from and approaching to the Navy Street Station on the BMT Myrtle Avenue EL in 1960...where they were placed in service between March and May 1958.










PHOTO ABOVE - The BMT (former IRT 3rd Ave El expresses from 1950 thru Dec 1956) "Q" Types - seen here around 1965 a a few years after their 1962 roof
chopped-top" treatment where most of the upper clerestory roof was removed to lower the car heights to clear certain subway tunnels for the cars to run thru to reach Coney Island BMT Shops and Yards for repair and maintenance services. Seen here headed Brooklyn-downtown-bound into the Navy Street Station on the BMT Myrtle Ave EL. 
This modification made a major and unpleasant un-natural change in their historical appearance. Until taken out of service in end of October 1969, they were the LAST wooden El cars operating in the USA !!









PHOTO ABOVE -- transition period - 1962 --- lowered roof Q type at left and original Q type still having it original high clerestory roof at right --- both seen at Broadway-Myrtle (upper) station on the Myrtle Ave EL. 1962



BELOW --- some snow memories on the BMT Myrtle EL --- I rode them and that Myrtle Ave EL line (and 3rd Ave El) in snow many times. Boy, did those old wooden El cars have some hot heaters under their seats --- toasty warm in frigid winters.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

It's been a while but what a great surprise to see you posting more great photos from back in the day.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Yes, the old neighborhood has become very upscale with the old buildings being replaced by high-rises. I tell people I grew up on the fashionable Upper East Side before it became fashionable.  Thanks for the great photos and the trip down memory lane and keep posting photos. You did a fantastic job on the layout with your attention to detail.


==============================================================================================

Hello again Gramps 

Yes, I came back to greet my old pal Karl (or Carl) who just signed up / joined here. 

There is another hi-rise (huge) going up - almost completed on the S/E corner of 3rd Avenue at E. 83rd street, in our old (and long gone as it was) Yorkville / Manhattan neighborhood. Perhaps these photos BELOW will stir some of your old and perhaps faded memories of that corner and time long ago. 3rd Ave as we knew it back then (even E. 86th Street) is basically gone and un-recognizable in these times. These photo below show the changing visual history of 3rd Ave at E. 83rd Street's S/E corner over nearly 70 years !! --- Regards - Joe F

BELOW- View S/E to S/E corner 3rd Avenue along the uptown track side of the EL
along 3rd Avenue at the crossing intersection of E. 83rd Street, in 1940










BELOW --- In a happier and simpler time, this photo I took in late 1954 looking south at the south end of the 3rd Avenue EL's downtown E.84th Street EL Station platform. The south end (a wooden 1910 added short and narrow extention) at left of the uptown platform and an uptown late afternoon express train about the pass thru my station. The N/E corner at left as well as the S/E corner (behind first EL car are seen. The building at left edge of photo (the old Hayman & Sumner Stationery Store from 1892) is the only one on that east sidewalk of the block remaining today. The Manhattan Storage huge warehouse was completely modified and luxury-upgraded to become very expensive luxury condo's in the 1980's










BELOW -- View S/E from rooftop of Krauss Hardware Store 6 story building at N/W corner E. 83rd Street from 3rd Ave, showing the S/E corner at center and
part of the N/E Corner. I ate in that corner restaurant at lower left a few times in the early-late 50's. It was the one with the "stout" European woman owner with the gruff
voice and personality, heh. That corner was torn down by the very late 1960's. Seen is the beginning demolition of the IRT 3rd Avenue EL whose E.84th
Street local El station platforms ended just behind the two workers at bottom left.was just behind - September 1955










BELOW --- Here is a more contemporary scene looking southeast along 3rd Avenue in 2013 of the same S/E corner showing the building upgraded and with a long standing yuppie type Bar and Restaurant in the corner store location.










BELOW ---looking due southeast to the now gone, demolished corner building and a few of its adjoining mates, seen looking east across 3rd Avenue. E. 83rd Street would be
at left edge of photo. Dec. 2019











BELOW looking south in Sept.2021 along the center of 3rd Avenue towards E. 83rd Street crossing, we see the very high and very high rent monstrosity hi-rise that replaced the quaint and charming original building. The hi-rise is presently (in March 2022) almost completed and represents, as seen in distance, these towering buildings that are lining 3rd Avenue in current times.


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

Hi Joe,
Newer member here and a little late to your thread but gosh your pictures are impressive! 
I like the idea of putting realism in a layout but I am a little lazy so HO scale permits me to nix the teadious task of putting rivits and fasteners in equipment. 
You sure have been model railroading as long as I have been alive and certainly had time to hone your skills.
I imagine you have to be a bit obsessive and compulsive to fabricate such a clean and realistic scene's...and that's not a bad thing!. Do you consider yourself in that way? I am that way to a certain extent and think most of us modelers are.
How do you get through those down times when your making scenery and can't run trains till you finish a certain point?
I also am curious about the footprint of your layout and the route of your tracks as viewed from above. 
I was a Model Railroader subscriber from 2003 to 2010 and still retain those issues as reference material.
So I may have a magazine with your layout in it. 
Anyway, just want to say thanks for sharing! Very cool.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

SF Gal said:


> Hi Joe,
> Newer member here and a little late to your thread but gosh your pictures are impressive!
> I like the idea of putting realism in a layout but I am a little lazy so HO scale permits me to nix the teadious task of putting rivits and fasteners in equipment.
> You sure have been model railroading as long as I have been alive and certainly had time to hone your skills.
> ...


==================================================================================================================

Hello SF Gal

Well, a rare lady train person and model railroader! Welcome here ! Nice to see some gals in the hobby ---

I started modeling in HO Scale in NY City Rapid Transit back in I think 1958 or so. Moved on to O Scale in 1984-85 in both NY City Transit as well as some mainline commuter rail. However, I model MAINLY in HO Scale for my mainline long distance and commuter rail model railroading. I love to run my 12 to 16 car mainline railroad passenger trains in HO on my 40' x 15' x 40' x 15' wall based modular shelf "around the room" rectangular shaped layout. The O Scale EL and Trolley Modular built layout is in the middle area of the train room floor. I model these mainline railroad passenger train (and some freight) railroads in HO Scale --- in both heavyweight and streamline cars - with mainly diesels, some electrics and a few steam locos--- and various paint schemes for cars covering various eras per some railroads:

New York Central RR ; Pennsylvania RR, Long Island RR, New Haven RR, B&O Railroad, Central RR of NJ (CNJ) , Reading (PA) Railroad, Amtrak, SEPTA (PA.) Commuter RR, Metro North Commuter RR

I obviously get a lot more mainline railroad "track mileage" per real foot of train room in HO (1:87) scale than I would for the same space in 1/4" O Scale. I am a big fan of Chicago area Rapid Transit and the commuter rail and the former Interurban Lines.

You may not be aware of my massive FLICKR Photos Site -- and all of my layout photo albums. These include Albums of photos AND VIDEOS - for my O Scale NY City based EL & Trolley Layout, Photos of my HO Scale NY City based EL and Trolley earlier layouts, and my O Scale and HO Scale "railroad" based equipment - and photos and some videos of my HO Railroad Layout.

Here is the link to the ALBUMS PAGE : N.Y.C. MODEL TRANSIT SYSTEM’s albums | Flickr

Here is the PHOTOSTREAM PAGE LINK--- which basically has the newest uploaded photos seen on page one --- all randomly shown on the page in order as to the date they were uploaded.









N.Y.C. MODEL TRANSIT SYSTEM


Explore N.Y.C. MODEL TRANSIT SYSTEM’s 4,755 photos on Flickr!




www.flickr.com





The above should keep you busy. I have created all this -- worked full time all my life -- had steady girlfriends and a social life --- and somehow built it all. Don't ask me how I did it --- liklely on a "mission from God" - as quoted in the Blues Brothers Movie (heh) !

I don't know what, heh. mental conditions or afflictions (heh) I have acquired or possessed thru my life to get it all this modeling done and to attain the details level shown. Re: Scenery -- remember -- BEFORE I could "run" my subway and El trains,. I had to build the EL STRUCTURES first and complete them, the track work, wiring, EL stations, etc. JUST like the real EL's were constructed. Sort of the "agony" before the "ecstasy"" syndrone. Consider buuilding your entire layout trackwork on endless scratch built bridges first. Anyway - I was more focused on the end results and the operation and final desired look of the layout -- as the motivational force to keep plodding ahead. A big majoity of my transit rolling stock is fully scratch built also. So were many of my along the El "buildings" and real estate. A friend of mine, Alan Williams, from Blackpool UK (Former transit worked and tram (trolley) operator )--- visited a few years ago for a week and here he is seen in "long shots" photos below of the train room. The HO "mainline RR" layout runs around the walls --- the front and rear door "bridges" of that layout were removed that day so the doors could open to the train room. Well, for now, I have provided some info for your questions and comments. Regards ! - Joe F





















PS: The maroon building in front of by Alan's right arm at left -- its "facade" was made out of surplus 35MM film color Slide spare cardboard mounts -- I Have about 600,000 color slides archived -- from when I started slides in the mid 1950's to date --- and saved any slide mounts that had bad slides in them.... for used as future spares for any damaged or worn out mounts. Never needed most all of them basically and used a number of the blank slide mounts to create a few building "facades" for the layout. The green and white building just behind Alan's left arm seen touching the train ---is also a "color slides mount" constructured building facade !


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Hi Joe,
I really enjoyed the old photos of 3rd Ave and 83rd St. I'm not sure but I think that restaurant on the corner was called the Brau Haus. The photo of the workers preparing to demolish the El in 1955 brought back a not-so-great memory. I was 10 at the time and badly fractured the growth plate in my right knee. I was in the hospital for almost a week and bedridden for 3 months in a cast from my chest to my right toes. When it happened the El was still standing but trains were not running, when I finally got the cast off the only thing left was the pillars that held up the tracks.

It's interesting to see the photos of what your train room actually looks like.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

NYC TRANSIT MODELER said:


> ==================================================================================================================
> 
> Hello SF Gal
> 
> ...



First off I want to say what a amazing layout you have and the attention to details along with the artistry of something I wish I had but unfortunately my artistry is severely lacking so I can dream lol.


You say you like Chicago ever thought about doing the L loop in downtown Chicago? I've personally have rode on that a bunch of times and it would be a neat one to build.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Hi Joe,
> I really enjoyed the old photos of 3rd Ave and 83rd St. I'm not sure but I think that restaurant on the corner was called the Brau Haus. The photo of the workers preparing to demolish the El in 1955 brought back a not-so-great memory. I was 10 at the time and badly fractured the growth plate in my right knee. I was in the hospital for almost a week and bedridden for 3 months in a cast from my chest to my right toes. When it happened the El was still standing but trains were not running, when I finally got the cast off the only thing left was the pillars that held up the tracks.
> 
> It's interesting to see the photos of what your train room actually looks like.


=========================================================================================

Hello Gramps

Sorry to hear about your bad and painful medical misfortune during that "el' of a time period after the EL closed down 5-12-1955 at 7PM for good below E.129th Street / Harlem River. It stood abandoned untouched thru the summer until demolition because around Aug 2, 1955, starting at E. 116th Street Station and was complete by Feb 1956 at E. 42nd Street & 3rd Ave. Here is what you saw after you recovered (the standing pillars alone) -- remember this one BELOW? 

BELOW -- A view south at E. 83rd Street along 3rd Avenue in early Dec 1955. Very sad time for me - and I knew then that something historic was being destroyed ! Just the El columns standing and awaiting being yanked out and carted off to steel scrap yards ! Regards - Joe F










BELOW looking west to the demolition of the (and my side) 3rd Ave EL's Uptown E.84th Street local Station house and platforms and structure - Sept. 1955
How many countless times I used that station !











BELOW -- Rooftop view down from the SW corner tenement roof, to the demolition of the E. 84th Street El Station --- with most of the uptown side station seen in the view towards the N/E corner of 3rd Ave at E. 84th Street. The corner block from E. 84th Street to E. 85th street still remains today ! SAD SAD time period. They sure could use that El line today - heh !


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

That first color photo is exactly what I saw after my three months coming out of being bed ridden. Obviously I could not see the actual demolition of the tracks which in hindsight is a good thing. That old Manhattan Storage Building was the closet thing we had to a high rise in old Yorkville. It looked like you could see it from everywhere.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> That first color photo is exactly what I saw after my three months coming out of being bed ridden. Obviously I could not see the actual demolition of the tracks which in hindsight is a good thing. That old Manhattan Storage Building was the closet thing we had to a high rise in old Yorkville. It looked like you could see it from everywhere.


==================================================================================================================

Hello again Gramps

You may enjoy this segment of a longer color film --- this section is taken in 1954 on the E. 84th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El --- which was your and my El station back then.

The first segment is show on the south end of the uptown platform showing a downtown approaching train of "MUDC" class ((cars with end doors) local entering the E. 84th Street S/B station. The cameraman pans around 180 degrees and shoots south from the very south (E. 83rd st end) of the Uptown platform --- and films the same train departing down the long 8 block hill to E. 76th Street local Station. And catches a northbound local heading up that long hill to the E.84th Street n/B station. Almost seems like yeswterday to me --- I was there on that station so much back then ! The next part is a S/W view from E.100th St of a N/B local leaving the E.99th Street Station, followed with scenes at E.129th Street and the Harlem River Bridge crossing and train crossing Bronx New Haven RR Freight Yards at E. 132nd Street . (Regards - Joe F)

1954 film segment shot at E.84th St Station-3rd Ave El

To see the beginning of thru entire 3rd Ave El color film (after the Chicago film first segment) --- click this LINK BELOW: (Enjoy ! - Regards - Joe F

Entire 1954 color 3rd Ave El film


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## CarlMac (10 mo ago)

Hi Joe I'm glad to be able to converse with you other than on that crappy Comcast e mail I have even my son whose really up on this stuff can't understand why I'm having a hard time with some email contacts, He just gave me a new computer system out of the thanks for my help with him being able to continue with his studies and collage fees. I so wish I was able to have a layout even a small point to point but with our small house there isn't a full wall that is straight, too many built in's and all rooms are pretty well packed with furniture as my wife loves those things. 

I was injured several years ago that left me with a shaking right hand and trying to do anything that requires a steady hand is out of the question as I've tried several times to build a trolley coach from an old Traction & Models ICC kit was a total disaster, my wife feeling sorry that I'm having difficulty doing delicate model work bought me a resin statue that's a large figure and putting that together was even a chore but I built it and even used my air brush for the first time in years, 

I'm slowly getting better at controlling that shaking and with therapy and my building these larger models I may eventually pick up that car kit and try again. My one dream was to scratch build two of every BMT series elevated gate cars from the Geiller Elevated car book I just love those unique cars with the open convertible side panels I would have loved to have rode those cars being That I rode those 1300 series BMT gate cars as a kid I knew what fun that was with those reversible seats with the kane seats and back, I get mad at seeing these fan videos of these gate cars and they never show the people boarding the gate cars and the volunteers operating those gates I haven't seen one video showing this one would think that would be an interesting feature of the gate cars in operation being seventy seven kinda sucks the spirt wants to do so much yet the old body says easy does it, at one point some years ago I asked about building a 2nd story to our house in hopes of layout space but our house isn't structurally sound and just couldn't be done built in the late 60's a real let down but looking at what you have done I get to see my beloved trolleys and elevated trains above the streets again and that right there is great therapy for me until next time bye for now. Karl M


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Conductorkev said:


> First off I want to say what a amazing layout you have and the attention to details along with the artistry of something I wish I had but unfortunately my artistry is severely lacking so I can dream lol.
> 
> 
> You say you like Chicago ever thought about doing the L loop in downtown Chicago? I've personally have rode on that a bunch of times and it would be a neat one to build.


==============================================================================================================
Hello Kevin !

I have enough in both my HO AND O Scale NYC EL Layouts that was done to even consider (and no more space either, heh) doing any version of any of the Chicago Loop EL's and junctions. It would be interesting, especially with North Shore trains running along with the old wooden El trains ! A now retired motorman long time pal of mine from the Chicago CTA - David Harrison --- built an O Scale version of the Chicago Loop in a modular layout --- even with a loop subway station under the street under the EL. This was back in the 1980's- 90's and he took it via a truck to some train shows. There are videos of it on Facebook site - O Scale New York, if you do a search - but you have to JOIN that site to access it.

See the video links below - David was involved with a few others in the huge Chicago Science and Industry "HO SCALE Chicago City Layout --- and was involved with modeling the Chicago HO EL Layout and its Chicago EL Cars -- that operate on that EL. You can see it in some videos. Via Links BELOW:






  --- AND --- 




A pal of mine for 20 years - Terry Gaskin (aka CTA Fan) has been building a Chicago based realistic EL Line that operates and has a great BLOG with many photos of back when it started up to present day finished portions and operation. Very worth a loo0k --- here is the BLOG LINK :  http://ctalayout.blogspot.com/

Here is the link to his Layout You Tube (and related) videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/The1958mgmga/videos

There are a very few of us in the USA who model --- as well as up to my skills and details level, Mass Transit based (Subways, EL"s, etc.) city layouts . The more skill, details, and realism you put into a layout --- the more work, some tedious, time, effort, and sacrifice you must invest. Its not all easy -- a lot of perseverance needed. But that is not needed to have a decent well running and fun to operate layout.

Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

NYC TRANSIT MODELER said:


> ==================================================================================================================
> 
> Hello again Gramps
> 
> ...


I didn't have time to watch the extended video but I really enjoyed the first clip starting at the 84th St stop. One question, I probably only rode the El up into the Bronx once or twice (the Lexington Ave subway was much faster for a trip up there) but at about the 22:00 mark it shows a N/B train around a curve while a S/B train waits and then the S/B crosses over onto the N/B tracks to continue south and the clip ends. Do you have any additional information about if that was standard procedure?


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> I didn't have time to watch the extended video but I really enjoyed the first clip starting at the 84th St stop. One question, I probably only rode the El up into the Bronx once or twice (the Lexington Ave subway was much faster for a trip up there) but at about the 22:00 mark it shows a N/B train around a curve while a S/B train waits and then the S/B crosses over onto the N/B tracks to continue south and the clip ends. Do you have any additional information about if that was standard procedure?


================================================================

Hello again Gramps !

Yes, those scenes with the EL trains coming & going at E. 84th Street Local Station (built in 1876-77 !) were very regular and quite frequent scenes burned into my memory back then thru the years.

I forgot to mention that last film part --- in sepia colored film --- that was taken from the UPPER LEVEL of the IRT Gun Hill Road Station which is an express stop. It is looiking due southwest from the south ending point of the downtown island platform (of 2 platforms, one on each side of the single center express track) of the upper level White Plains Road Line Station at Gun Hill Road. .. It shows the IRT 3rd Avenue El wood-bodied trains on Gun Hill Road, ready to turn onto (or depart from) the LOWER LEVEL Gun Hill Road by then "terminal" of the 3rd Ave El. That portion of the line was opened in 1920 (built 1918-19). It ran north from Fordham Road / Bronx Park west where the EL once terminated until 1919 - crossed the open cut 4 track NYCRR main line and its Fordham Road station, and the new EL ran north over WEBSTER AVENUE to E. 210th Street. It was there the EL took a very sharp curve right / eastbound over Gun Hill Road for a few blocks, to turn north onto the LOWER LEVEL of the 2 level Gun Hill Road El Station over White Plains Road.

BELOW is a photo in 1963 in its years when it still ran the old (but by then steel former ex-subway cars) IRT pre war rolling stock,. The wooden EL trains (Q-Type cars and MUDC Car trains) using the lower level ended by Dec. 16, 1956, replaced by steel cars. The UPPER LEVEL is the White Plains Road (now # 5) train The 3rd AVE EL using Steinway Class Low-V Cars, is on the LOWER LEVEL this view is looking north east along the downtown local track(s) side of the EL.









The movie camerman was standing on the upper level station platform filming the 3rd Ave EL trains -- about where the rear of the old GMC "Surface Transportation System Corp" transit bus is seen on White Plains Road below..


BELOW -- Looking south around early 1973 on the lower level (originally S/B local track for thru trains heading south from E. 241st St Terminal prior to early 1951)
showing the curve from White Plains Road onto Gun Hill Road. A S/B train of R-12 class cars has just left the station and entered Gun Hill Road EL Structure.










Up to about 1950 or early 1951, the 3rd Ave El Thru expresses and a few locals did run north to the White Plains Road EL Line's E. 241st Street Station Terminal. 3rd Ave EL trains also used the E. 239th Street EL layup Yards and shops for repairs and layups - along with IRT Steel Subway cars. NY City Transit System cut ALL 3rd Ave. EL trains back to Gun Hill Road as a terminal by late 1950. Forcing riders to climb the stairs to the upper level and catch a subway line train to the few stations further north. One of the many economy cuts to sabotage the El into losing riders such as the following: 1950, Nov. closing South Ferry Branch; 1953 closing City Hall Branch; Closing the Bronx Park Spur Terminal in 1950; 1947, closing the Bergen Cutoff EL that took 3rd Ave trains from E. 143rd St Station (in the Alleyway in the lower Bronx) over to a connection to run on the White Plains Rd Line EL to Freeman Street Station for a one seat ride there. And then closing, below E. 149th Street Express station, Bronx, all night service weekdays at 7PM evenings to 6AM weekday morning, in 1953, and also ALL Weekend Services from Friday 7PM thru Monday 6AM -- to get people use to using the planned to be retained Bronx remnant of the EL (E.149th to Gun Hill Road) service to be retained after the Manhattan portion was scheduled to be closed below E. 149th Street for good, by 7PM, May 12, 1955. All designed to make El riders get fed up with the line and use the even back they way overcrowded one block west parallel Lexington Avenue Subway Line. The Bronx 3rd Ave El remnant lasted until operation ended in April 1973, and the Bronx remnant line was torn down in sections (NYC was on verge of bankrupt by then, heh) between early 1974 and mid 1976

Anyway, the lower level facilities, tracks and platforms of the Gun Hill Road Station were completely removed by early 2000's and only the very high upper level station for the White Plains Rd Line is used today. Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Now that you describe it, I know exactly where that is. I had an aunt that lived 2 blocks west of Webster Ave at the Bedford Park Blvd (200th St) station of the El and just past that the NYC/NH four track main line where I did some train watching. If I wanted to visit her I could ride the Lexington Ave White Plains Rd train to Gun Hill Rd where the El came in and walk downstairs and ride the El back to her stop. It would be much quicker that way. I barely remember that you could ride the El to South Ferry but I really only remember it going from Chatham Square in Chinatown to Gun Hill Rd. Thanks for the additional information, photos and nostalgia.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Now that you describe it, I know exactly where that is. I had an aunt that lived 2 blocks west of Webster Ave at the Bedford Park Blvd (200th St) station of the El and just past that the NYC/NH four track main line where I did some train watching. If I wanted to visit her I could ride the Lexington Ave White Plains Rd train to Gun Hill Rd where the El came in and walk downstairs and ride the El back to her stop. It would be much quicker that way. I barely remember that you could ride the El to South Ferry but I really only remember it going from Chatham Square in Chinatown to Gun Hill Rd. Thanks for the additional information, photos and nostalgia.


==================================================================================================

I figured once I described it --- that it (Gun Hill Road jct.) would all come back to your memories. Its been 67 years already, since the Manhattan part of the line was closed down and end of 5-12-55, heh !

I only rode the 3rd Ave. EL's South Ferry Branch line 3 or 4 times in 1950 -- I vividly remember the close buildings and towering canyon of office buildings up against the 2 track EL as it ran down Pearl Street. And the amount of shadows the El ran in because of the buildings ! I rode those times with my Uncle - I presume he wanted me to be able to experience and possibly remember the line and what was by Dec.1950 very soon to be no more south of Chatham Sq. Station. That 2 track branch line only had 4 stations; Franklin Square; Fulton Street, Hanover Square., and then South Ferry Terminal attached to the Staten Island Ferry Terminal original cast iron ornate building. And, 5 years later the entire Manhattan part of the EL's line was closed and removed. (Joe F)

BELOW - South on 3rd Ave EL from the Fulton Street EL Station single platform over Pearl Street -- with an uptown local approaching - 1949










Again, BELOW -- South from the very south end of the Fulton Street Station EL platform towards Maiden Lane crossing - 1949









Hanover Square EL Station is a block or so south beyond the bend in the tracks. Bring back any memories, heh !


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## CarlMac (10 mo ago)

These fantastic photos just amazes me how these transit people were able to squeeze these elevated lines between the buildings some within feet of the buildings windows something I seriously doubt would even be allowed today, now this is something I'd like to see done with modelers and their model elevated lines is duplicate some of these fantastic photos of course using the period cars as well even with a Forney steam locomotive. If I were younger and with the space this is what I'd attempt to do at least in a section of a layout but being in my late seventies and with physical problems and no real place to even attempt anything like that is just a big pipe dream, but to just see these old photos kind of makes my blood pump just a little and my love of that long ago distant world.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

CarlMac said:


> These fantastic photos just amazes me how these transit people were able to squeeze these elevated lines between the buildings some within feet of the buildings windows something I seriously doubt would even be allowed today, now this is something I'd like to see done with modelers and their model elevated lines is duplicate some of these fantastic photos of course using the period cars as well even with a Forney steam locomotive. If I were younger and with the space this is what I'd attempt to do at least in a section of a layout but being in my late seventies and with physical problems and no real place to even attempt anything like that is just a big pipe dream, but to just see these old photos kind of makes my blood pump just a little and my love of that long ago distant world.



Hello Carl:

Thanks ! And I know what you mean.

Time is slowly running out --- and it seems its on its way to doing so recently for me also. I have always had irregular heartbeat since diagnosed at age 11 --- very minimal then --- but in the last few years coupled with getting older or so it seems to have gotten somewhat more advanced and serious and was the reason, much aggravated by a small case of viral pneumonia mainly, I spent 7 days in a local Philly PA hospital Jan 15 to 22nd of this year. I am on 6 heart-and blood-based meds daily -- but have a variant form of congestive heart failure (CHF) based on a number of various medical tests. However, I can still get around and function daily - doing house chores, taking care of my cats, doing basic daily inside and outside of home routines -- I can drive, walk, etc. But no longer have the staying and endurance power nor continual long-time-periods of energy level that I had even a year or more ago. I have to take things more moderately and easier at this stage of life. Most all my other body systems are so far, A-OK -- which helps maintain the decent enegry and mobility levels status quo. I have my generally decent days and some "off" days here and there ....

And basically having no truly dedicated, responsible or "reliable" nearby close friends - nor any relatives at all - in the picture, well, you can get the idea. THAT'S WHY thru my NYCTMG Forum board for decades I implored our members (like you) to get the train layouts done when younger and in full health. At least I have had 38 years to enjoy my O Scale Transit creation layout started back in 1984. We were lucky to have grown up and lived thru and experienced the ending decades of the great original NYC Transit System and its original founding rolling stock --- well, what being of what remained of it even back then in the mid 1940's-thru late 1960's. Its all over now --- .the system we knew, people who kept it running then, the safe and civilized neighborhoods we lived in - the city in general. Just models like mine, photos, and memories of it are all that remain. And some restored rolling stock in various trolley museums.

Just look at all the old (and some recent) old neighborhood photos I shared on this thread with fellow member and also ex-Yorkville-ite here, "Gramps" --- and check those site locations today on Google Maps "street views" --- (or go anywhere in NY City) to see the massive changes !

Anyway -- BELOW is seen me in the hospital back on Wed. Jan 19, 2022 in N.E. Philly, PA. They did take good care of me !

Regards Carl, Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

WOW Joe! Sorry to hear of your medical setback in January, but it does sound like you are doing pretty well now. We are all slowing down but try to stay somewhat active and just take things nice and easy. I enjoyed the photos of both your layout and the real thing. Stay well.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> WOW Joe! Sorry to hear of your medical setback in January, but it does sound like you are doing pretty well now. We are all slowing down but try to stay somewhat active and just take things nice and easy. I enjoyed the photos of both your layout and the real thing. Stay well.


=====================================================================


Hello Gramps:

Thanks for your comments - appreciated.

Well, doing "OK" generally but I would not say doing "pretty well" generally for the most part. Some days are fine and I am "up" and functioning all thru the day (and at nite) to the present more reduced energy levels level medical situation will tolerate daily. And, here and there are days which require somewhat more downsized activity and less physical energy usage. But I am managing and have been "adjusting" to the present status quo and any schedules and etc., on a day by day basis. ! (Joe F)


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello ALL -----

Well, 5 months LATER after my 1 week January 2022 hospital stay, and now with a newly on board personal Cardiologist MD on board handing my medical affairs -- and with a change of some medications --- I am doing much better. Some of my earlier hospital issued meds were, after 3 months taking them, causing me some issues and problems. These have been replaced by better drugs and a few were eliminated entirely

I took a few transit photos on the O Scale NYC EL layout back in evening of May 31st, , and some on the trolley system large layout which is housed a few houses away from my home.. Here they are attached below: Regards - Joe F


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

Good see you back and doing better!


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

This has to be one of the most impressive layouts, like, ever. Even shadows are modeled. I am glad that you have the strength to keep on trucking, or subwaying.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Hi Joe,
Glad to hear you are improving medically and working on the layout. Are those Pelham Bay #6 cars scratch built like some or most of your others? Looks good as always.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Hi Joe,
> Glad to hear you are improving medically and working on the layout. Are those Pelham Bay #6 cars scratch built like some or most of your others? Looks good as always.


Hello Gramps

I am sure you remember those IRT R-17 cars when first put on the IRT East Side (Pelhan Bay Local service) line by mid early-1955 ! I sure do --- soft red seats, bright florescent lighting and very fast acceleration and braking modes. Of course, they were still "the enemy" heralding the removal of the old pre-war original IRT steel subway rolling stock along with the later R-21 and 22 cars.

These IRT Division "Pelham Bay Line Cars" seenn in the earlier posted photos - are some of the MTH built R-17 cars I worked as the Chief Tech Support person with MTH TRAINS in the early 2000's years.to produce, along with all the NYC Subway sets. The maroon car seen at rear of the train in a local station is shown in its original 1955-56 as delivered new colors to the IRT Division --- the other cars are shown as were repainted in the mid 1960's in the Cardinal Red colors to match newer existing R-Type cars paint scheme delivered in early 1960's.!

But YES ---- before we (MTH & I) did the factory production run of R-17 cars (for 3 rail track operation) -- I did scratch build two Fully 1:48 Scale IRT R-17 Cars for my layout --- painted in their original as delivered new, Maroon colors. These cars have full interiors with ads, seats, motorman cabs, proper underbody & trucks, etc, Among the original car builder factory plans I sent to MTH for the original St Louis Car Co IRT R-17 cars built, I sent MTH one of these 2 O-Scale R-17 scratchbuilt models for review and inspection. BELOW are some shots of my two R-17 scratchbuilt models on the layout. These were built around 2000-2001. I think the photos below will be sufficient, heh ! 
Regards - Joe F



BELOW - seen in a layup yard which is parallel to an island platform station










BELOW - Seen with one of the still remaining in 1955-56, wooden IRT EL Cars at left -- posed as such in one of my layup yards









BELOW - seen again in track level head on shot in one of my layup and maintenance yards and










BELOW - The "new" and the "old seen together - as could be photographed together in prototype reality, in IRT E.239th St Yards in 1955-1956 short period.
My 2 scratchbuilt maroon IRT R-17 cars and my scratchbuilt (one of 5 made) IRT Manhattan EL Division 3rd Ave EL Line operated MUDC Wooden Elevated cars.
These type wooden EL cars were converted to enclosed vestibules, with end doors (MUDC) from about 400 formker open end platform gate cars,
by the IRT back in 1923.









BELOW -- The brand new (May 1955) and the very oldest (built 1903 era) IRT cars pose nose to nose in my inspection-repair yard









Track level yard views of front faces of new IRT R-17 Car and one of the oldest operating cars in 1955, a scratchbuilt 3rd Ave El wooden MUDC Motor Car
at right










BELOW - Seen at an Island Platform Terminal Station platform and track, parallel to a layup and maintenance yard. At right is one of my 4 my
IRT H-series M-o-W Hopper car on a yard layup track by the inspection shed.










BELOW -- My scratchbuilt R-17 poses with my IRT 1908 era steel Deck Roof High Voltage subway car, on the center track on my EL.
The R-17 cars were the replacement for the old Hi-V steel subway cars on the (Manhattan East Side) IRT Pelham Bay subway Line
and its Bronx EL extension in 1955 thru 1956


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello Chaostrain, Gramps, and Chops

THANKS much for your thoughts and comments ! Appreciated ! Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Great photos and work! They actually look like they could real thing.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello all - and Gramps (heh)

The last time I was here was in June 2022 -- posting and replying to messages. Since then I have been busy with health, house, modeling, and keeping myself healthy on all the heart (a-fib) meds. But doing so-so OK. Here are some newest images I figured I would post here; For those few who have an interest ! I AM working on about 30 car projects (subway and trolley cars -- and a few railroad cars -- all O Scale. Maybe I will photograph and display those ongoing model-projects also sometime later! ........... Regards - Joe F

BELOW -- View along a single island platform EL station platform towards the station house at its end









BELOW -- night scene with a train of BMT-IND R-42 subway cars departing a local station on the EL









BELOW -- night scene - a train of IRT R-21 Cars curves to enter a local station of the EL









BELOW -- Brooklyn B&QT transit streetcar approaches as it is being passed by a Brooklyn Bus Co. with the EL curving around in background










BELOW -- Brooklyn B&QT Transit deck roof streetcar has left the shadows of the EL (left) as it passes a GMC Surface Transportation System bus with a older 
bus of the Brooklyn Bus Company behind it.. A Entry Kiosk for ntrance to IRT Subway line station is seen 









BELOW -- 3 photos of an IRT Local train of former open end platform "gate" cars converted to enclosed ends and exterior sliding end doors in 1923- 
called MUDC (Multiple Unit Door Controlled) Cars, rounds curve on the EL 



























BELOW -- a Brand New ( as was back in 1955) IRT R-17 Subway Car is at rear of a train in local station on the EL










BELOW -- Train of R-17 IRT "SMEE" Subway cars repainted in the (1965) Cardinal Red scheme, passes by on the EL about to enter a local station on the EL


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Hi Joe,
Glad to hear you are doing OK with your health. I always enjoy looking at your photos, it's a trip down memory lane for me especially those 3rd Avenue El shots. Did you ever think of modeling the Papaya King frankfurter stand at 86th Street under the el? Great stuff!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice work as always, you do have a knack for detail!


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Nice work as always, you do have a knack for detail!


Hello John

Thanks nuch, as always, for your long ongoing appreciation and support of my layout and modeling work ! 

regards ! - Joe F


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> Hi Joe,
> Glad to hear you are doing OK with your health. I always enjoy looking at your photos, it's a trip down memory lane for me especially those 3rd Avenue El shots. Did you ever think of modeling the Papaya King frankfurter stand at 86th Street under the el? Great stuff!



Hello "Gramps" !

As much as I LOVED eating hot dogs and drinking their "papaya fruit" drinks at the Papaya King store at the N/W corner of 3rd & E. 86th Street, I never modeled it. I frequented that place from about 1954 thru the late 1960's ! I chose to model more memorable (by more citizens) icons like LIGGETT Drugs store, Woolworth and WT Grant 5&10 cent stores, Bohack Grocery and A&P Grocery Store, Strauss Auto Store, RKO Movie Theater (I did a LOEWS theater on my HO EL Layout) -- Manhattan Savings and Manufacturer Trust Company banks, and etc. and others !

Here are a few more old Yorkville scenes from OUR time back then when we lived thru that era --- for your enjoyment !

BELOW -- view east on E. 89th Street to the downtown local Station in 1953. Strange that it had only one stairway (installed in 1878) but the uptown side had TWO stairways.
See the E. 84th Street DOWNTOWN station below with a similar one stair station house.










BELOW -- view East on E. 84th Street to the downtown E.84th St Local Station of the 3rd Ave El --- NOTE it also has one stairway installed in 1878 but on the north sidewalk
line. The UPTOWN Station has two stairways -- the north sidewalk one was installed in 1878 and the newer style south sidewalk stairway added around
Approx 1915 or so. I saw this station daily coming and going to school towards Park Avenue -- until it was demolished and removed with the EL here by Oct. 1955 !











BELOW - INSIDE of the E. 84th Street UPTOWN EL station House facing the doors to the platforms along uptown track ! Remember, what you see here was all installed new in 1878 EXCEPT the 1915-18 added fare control turnstiles seen at left - 1954. I saw this scene countless times as I lived next to the uptown station.









BELOW -- A still-frame shot from an 8MM movie film taken in 1955 at the south end of the uptown E. 84th Street EL Station platform, Showing Lamppost at N/E corner E.83rd Street on 3rd Avenue, and an uptown 5 car "MUDC class" local train approaching our station. I did some edit work to get this, the best clearest and sharp results from the somewhat darker exposed movie film version. The train is heading up the 8 block steep grade from the E. 76th St Local Station seen in distance. How well I remember 
this scene from this end of the EL station platform near E.83rd Street !!










BELOW - I am sure YOU remember this scene -- its looking north to an uptown 3rd Ave El local which just left the E.84th Street local station and passed the famed and still standing (but restored and moved closer to building when 3rd Ave was widened in 1956) YORKVILLE CLOCK.. The clock was owned by STERNS JEWELRY SHOP back then. E. 85th Street NW corner seen across the street. Note the old shops and stores - I remember all of them and my mom and I shopped at a few of them regularly. The El and all buildings from 85th to 86th street on the oppsite side are all gone today -- since (the El gone by end of 1955) the block was torn town in 1962-63. The tall building featured in THEJEFFERSONS TV show it on that site now.









BELOW -- here is the restored and working clock` (minus the frame with pawnbroker gold balls) - view same angle as 1954 photo above
as things look in present times and the tall building between E. 85th & 86th Street built in 1964 which is in the opening scenes of THE JEFFERSONS
TV Series









More to come later -- have to leave now to go out to eat at a diner with a neighbor --- regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Back in the day I used to sit on the steps of the uptown 84th Street station waiting for my dad to come down after work and we would walk home together. My niece has an apartment on 80th and 1st and says the Papaya King is still there and I'm glad to see they saved the clock. Great memories!!


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello Gramps

I ate at the Papaya King store as I said many times!. HOWEVER sadly, per this July 2022 News Article Link --- NYC's Papaya King Is Slated for Demolition — Some Fans Are Getting Their Final Hot Dog While They Can --- it is soon slated to be torn down with the rest of adjacent stores and a new building erected on the corner site. Another link has 500+ photos of the exterior, interior and YUMMY food and drink producs of the store --- link here: --- https://www.yelp.com/biz/papaya-king-new-york-3 --- Here are some photos of the corner store in very recent years:

BELOW - Northwest to N/W corner of E. 86th Street from 3rd Avenue --- famed Papaya King store - 2022









BELOW --- closer northwest view of the same scene and store - in 2022











BELOW --- West due north scene across 3rd Ave to the N/W corner E. 86th St & 3rd Ave -- to the famed Papaya King Store --- Note the old bishop-crook lamp post at right - these are cast iron replicas of the the 2 styles of those lampposts used in NY City thru the early 1960's. These retro lamps are all over the city with other multiple different styles of the older lamps recreated --- started in very late 1990's to be replicated and installed. These lamps (the original ones) lined 3rd Avenue along the EL from the early 1900's thru their removal by mid-late 1956 on 3rd Ave.









BELOW is the interior of the present modern era of the store -and, heh, modern (high) food and drink prices !










BELOW -- view southwest along 3rd Ave side of original Papaya store towards E. 86th Street -- this view about 1940










BELOW -- View southwest towards E.86th Street along 3rd Ave side of Papaya store after facade modernizations -- this view about 1950, 51.









BELOW --- Northwest view to a downtown 3rd Ave El local entering the S/B E.89th Street Local Station platform, as seen from south end of the uptown platform - 1954









BELOW --- looking south due west in 1940 along west side of 3rd Avenue under the "EL" from near E. 85th Street to the downtown E. 84th Street local Station. I remember most of these stores remaining into the 1950's.! This entire scene is LONG GONE today but the building at right edge of photo still remains on 3rd Ave. today. The long low Bowling Alley towards the E.84th street N/W corner and its street level multiple stores, was replaced by a high rise building by 1964. The EL itself was closed Thurs. May 12, 1955 by 7PM, and demolished starting Aug 8, 1955 and gone completely in Manhattan by mid Feb. -1956.











BELOW --- North on 3rd Avenue - actually this is the Bowery roadway - in 1957 -- 2 years after the 3rd Ave EL was removed. The avenue was widened 10 extra feet to provide one addition roadway lane -- thus from originally 2 parking lanes and 4 roadway lanes to early 1956 -- to 2 parking lanes and 5 roadway lanes by end of 1957. This narrowed each sidewalk by 5 feet towards the building facade lines. Back then, the new modern Westinghouse "Whiteway" Florescent street light fixtures were "the rage" - replacing the old antiquated appearing 60+ and older years original variety of cast iron bishop crook and alternate style streetlights from 1895-1900. These new unique and very bright florescent streetlights remained on 3rd Avenue until replaced by mid to late 1990's by the standard posts with cobra-head-shaped single mercury vapor bulb lamp fixtures










BELOW --- View east on E. 86th Street back in 1957 towards Lexington Avenue along north side of E. 86th Street. The bank and RKO are well remembered by me -- I worked as a usher in the RKO ii either 1962 or 1963 or both. Mr. Gold was the general Manager. My Uncle Wade who was manager of the LOEWS Orpheum movie theater then (from the 1930's until he retired in 1967) - got me the job at RKO Theater - as he was a long time friend with RKO manager Mr. Gold.










WELL GRAMPS -- heh - do any of these photos ring any visual distant bells for you !!? Let me know in your,, any reply. regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I appreciate the photos Joe but I'm sorry to hear that the Papaya King will be gone. I remember they opened a second store on the West Side, it was there in the 1980's, and there were plans to franchise them but I don't know if that happened. I spent plenty of Saturdays in those theaters, Lowes had the Orpheum and a smaller one we called Little Loews and there were two more theaters across 86th street.


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## NYC TRANSIT MODELER (Sep 7, 2021)

Gramps said:


> I appreciate the photos Joe but I'm sorry to hear that the Papaya King will be gone. I remember they opened a second store on the West Side, it was there in the 1980's, and there were plans to franchise them but I don't know if that happened. I spent plenty of Saturdays in those theaters, Lowes had the Orpheum and a smaller one we called Little Loews and there were two more theaters across 86th street.


Hello Gramps

My Uncle in "the big Loews" for some time was dating a female manager in ":the little Loews" across the street. I went into those theaters (the other small theater was called the "E.86 St GARDEN" which later became the "E.86 St. GRANDE" (using the same letters rearranged on the Marquee !!) The GRANDE was originally named as new, the "86 St WINTER GARDEN" and showed foreign and some American smaller films. By 1936 it was renamed the "86 St GARDEN" Theater - and continued as such showing mainly European and German imported movies into the early 1950's. By 1953 it was renamed the " 86 St GRANDE" Theater -- by re-arranging the marque name letters from GARDEN to GRANDE !!! It was torn down around mid 1964 with the entire block of building south along 3rd Avenue to E. 85th Street prepare for construction of the 36 Story PARK LANE TOWERS which opened in 1967 (and later used in opening scenes on each of the THE JEFFERSON'S TV show series) - How I wish I could go back to those times for a while (1950-1969 period)

I did not mention those movies as I wondered how much you absorbed in memory of so much of the old Yorkville "real estate" of note !

Here are some photos below -- I hope you enjoy

BELOW -- View south due west acorss E. 86th Street in 1941, showing "Little Loew's" at left, and the then 86th St Garden Theater at right.. And the original Manhattan Savings Bank Building at right ! I was in BOTH theaters a number of times as well as in the Bank with my mother who had an account there in the 1940's-1950's.










BELOW -- view east in 1941 towards the 86 St GARDEN theater as well as towards nearby 3rd Avenue and its EL line seen in background (under the Marquee of the next theater behind Garden, the LOEW'S 86 St (aka the "Little Loew's" ) . This is the 1950's- early 1960's Yorkville I well remember !










BELOW - View south due west from E. 86th Street in March 1954 to the fairly newly remodeled former "Garden" Theater - now renamed the "86' St GRANDE" theater.
The premier of that movie was the event then and per the fanfare seen. Again, this theater and the Little Loew's and the old Manhattan Saving Bank at right, were all torn down along with those along the west side of 3rd Ave south to E. 86th Street, in mid 1964 for the later Park Lane Towers 36 Story luxury hi-rise apartment building spanning between E.85th Street to E. 86th Street along 3rd Avenue.... which opened in 1967.











BELOW -- view north across E. 86th Street to my late Uncle's "Big" Loew's Orpheum theater he managed, in 1940. He is likely in the theater office on the inside of the theater that day ! This is the way I remember that Loew's in the 1950's until it's mid 1960's marguee modern style "facelift" !









BELOW -- view Northwest across E. 86th Street to the way the Loew's Orphem looked from its 1913 opening day. This view in 1929 with streamers I presume for movie icon Harold Lloyd's new movie "Welcome Danger" . The building at left with the pointer roof facade was also a movie theater at the time. Note the Horn & Hardard Automat cafeteria to the left of Loew's Theater. I ate there numerous times in the mid 1950's thru late 1960's.











View Northeast across E. 86th St to new Marquee Facade for the Loew's Orpheum in 1966 My uncle, the manager, was likely in the office that day also ! Retiring around 1967 or 68.










Southwest along west side of 3rd Ave and along the 3rd Ave EL to the 3rd Avenue original entrance to the Loew's Orpheum E. 86St Theater. This 3rd Ave. Entrance was later
closed in the late 1940's and the interior long corridor to the main theater westward - was made into a commercial store. The Marquee was removed at that time also. 
This entry was again reopened when the Loews original building on E. 86th Street was demolished and a new Loew's theater was built into the new building, as a Loew's duplex cinemax Theater. This location Entry point on 3rd Avenue became the new and only MAIN entrance in the new building !









Southwest in 2017 along 3rd Avenue -- to the new building housing the new LOEW'S ORPHEUM 2 cineplex theaters within. An upper movie hall and lower movie hall. Notice that the 2 old tall tenement buildings to the left of the entrance - in BOTH photos -- still exist in 2017. My Loew's Manager uncle lived in a furnished room - from about 1960 to 1969, on the top floor of of the old building attached to the theater building !! Both old buildings remain but "may" be demolished with and when the Papaya King corner store and attached stores, are demolished as is by 2022, planned for near future.










BELOW -- View northwest in 1945 on 3rd Avenue and under the overhead 3rd Ave EL from just above E. 86th Street, to a southbound Third Ave. Railway System old single-truck streetcar now converted to work service. I think as used as a sand supply car. More importantly is the A.S. BECK shoe store with its own Marquee which lasted until at least mid 1990's, when store and marquee were closed and marquee removed in renovation process. Note the original Loew's Orpheum Theater alternate 3rd Avenue entrance which took you in a long wide corridor hallway westward to the main theater interior area near mid block of 86th street. At right is seen building at N/W corner of E. 87th Street on 3rd Ave.










Well, Gramps, that should keep you busy --- and tighten up some long ago and young boy and young man memories. I am glad I have these images ( and 200 + more) of our old neighborhood from the 1930's thru the present times. Perhaps these photos will explain any questions you may have had long ago. Regards - Joe F


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Enjoyed the photos Joe, thanks.


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