# Are The Older Lionel Pulmor Motors Better Than The Newer Can Motors?



## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi folks. New to this forum and it's good to be here. Have a question for Lionel operators. I've had problems with a newer Santa Fe scale conventional F3 stalling and not pulling aluminum cars after several hours of running time. So after getting this engine fixed again for the 4th time in 4 years, I'd like to sell it and possibly replace it with an older F3 with Pulmor motors.

But are the older Pulmor motors better at pulling heavier cars that the new can motors the the newer engines are equipped with. Anyone have any experience with this?


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Pullmor motors work well, but are more dependent on track voltage. Their magnets rely on track power for their field strength so need a bit more starting voltage. Can motors use permanent magnets which is why they can operate at much slower speeds reliably. How many cars? Modern or PW era cars? Any grades to climb? All of those play a factor. 

GRJ will likely have a few good recommendations to upgrade the electronics.

Carl


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## Wabashbud (Jun 25, 2010)

Great response to a difficult question. and the answer can be understood.

Bud


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

it probably is a bit a matter of taste and a bit more what you mean by better.

Pullmors are pretty good motors, but as said they use track power for the field and as such they are 
a) potentially noisier (if the stator windings get loose, as they often do in old age, they buzz a bit), 
b) definately use more power (that field doesnt come for free, unlike in can motors). c) They run more non-linearly that you are used to on newer modern power supplies that use choppers and other fancy waveshaping, like the ZW-L (they operate well enough, but 1/4 throttle might do next to nothing, 1/2 throttle gets you a little power, and suddenly 2/3 thorttle gets you A LOT - more than you wanted. Things like that. 
d) if old their brushes can spark, which is disconcerting to some. 

My only big complaint is the power usage and its a big enough problem that mine sit on the shelf alot. I have the Lionel ATSF nniversary passenger set from around 2000 with its four Pullmore powered A-B-B-A F3s. Four Pullmors starting out on my ZW-L will demenad a good amount of current, so in combination with six or so of the sets lighted cars, the current will hit the ZW-Ls single channel maximum of 10 amps. 

I really like can motors: quiet, compact and easy to fit, and if big enough and well-enough designed, very powerful and durable.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Thank you, Carl. Since I run only conventional, I don't think this would be a problem for Pulmor motors. I would be running this train (The Santa Fe Super Chief) at higher speeds anyway on it's own loop. Appreciate your reply.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

And thanks to you, Lee. I hadn't thought about the power consumption for these older motors. In fact, it's the engines from this set you have that are offered on Ebay right now, new for just under $400. However, it's just an ABA set with one powered A unit. I use a Z-4000 for this train, but sounds like the Pulmors would still use a lot of power.

I'm wondering if the problem with this engine I've had so much trouble with, is that it's the only Lionel scale F3 I know of (Santa Fe #17) with the single axle drives on each truck, giving it just 2 powered axles. Seems like an 8-wheel drive for this engine would have been better. I have it pulling a matching unpowered B and 5 15" aluminum cars. It's seldom run more than 15 minutes a session, maybe 3 or 4 days a week and after about a year, just seems to wear out.

So, I don't know. I'm wondering if I should get a matching powered B with the can motors to take the strain off the "underpowered" A unit, although both powered units would be conventional. In fact, I'm running this engine up to an Lionel service station right now to have it fixed for the 4th time. A bit frustrating.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yellowstone Special said:


> I'm wondering if I should get a matching powered B with the can motors to take the strain off . . . .


Im not sure that would be a great idea. A Pullmor motor and a can motor loco together will be an odd mix, having _really _different voltage-versus-speed curves, so at most voltages one or the other will be doing a lot more work than the other - probably the can at lower voltages and the Pullmor at higher. Even when I run combinations of can-motor locos "not meant to be run together," like a 3rd Rail F7 and a Lionel F8, they are both can motor locos and so they tend to react roughly the same.

You can try them and see, just watch for signs one is overworking and overheating, etc. 

Frankly, my solution were I in that situation might be to remove the Pullmor motor and make the A unit a dummy, then get a really good, all-wheels-powered B unit with two can motors, or a powered A and B unit both with can motors, and run it that way. Not cheap maybe, but it would be totally satisfactory as to how they ran.

Alot has not necessarily improved with O-gauge since I was a kid in the early 1950s, but the use of can motors is a big exception. They are just soooooo good anymore.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

I believe he means can motors in both units........


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The Pullmor motors are not as smooth as the can motors. The torque ripple of a Pullmor motor is 2:1. The peak torque is double the torque of the minimum torque. Can motors have more poles, and so the torque ripple is smaller. This is why can motor locos can run at lower speeds. This is also the reason that it is possible to put servos around can motors to control speed but it is not possible to put a servo around a Pullmor motor.

I oil the brushes and commutators of my Pullmor which reduces the friction considerably. I have been doing this for about 8 years with very few problems.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I don't have enough experiencewith the can motors, but the older pullmor motors can pull lots of cars, not at slower speeds as was said but they have power. As for the power drain , with a clean track you could probably still pull a lot of lighted cars. I don't have the heavyweights but I can easy pull my 8 lighted aluminum cars plus. You can convert the lights to LEDs to save power but I never did. What bothers me inyour post yyou say after a few hours of pulling time they looses power and speed, so I'm thinking maybe something else is amiss, like the transformer or motor getting to hot? Anyone?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

IMHO, when locos slow down after being run for a while, there is most likely a lubrication problem. I have never had a loco slow down after a long run unless it had something like a sticking brush which was easy to fix, and this didn't happen very often, like 3 or 4 times in the last 40 years. 

For several years, I have recommended 5W-20 motor oil for lubing everything including KW whistle controllers and the motor commutators. Motor oil doesn't evaporate or get gummy or turn to concrete. It is also cheap. Motor oil is also the only lube with published vapor pressure on the Internet. Motor oil has a vapor pressure of 10^-5 torr at room temperature. This is very low, and this is why it doesn't evaporate from the crankcase of your car. BTW, one torr is 1 mm of pressure. Atmospheric pressure is 760 mm of mercury at sea level, standard day.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My record is 115 cars with two dual-motored Legacy locomotives, including a long 2% grade. So, I think we can assume that either can motors or Pulmore motors can pull most consists without too much problem. The Lionel Legacy Y3 was pulling 70 freight cars on the same loop a few weeks ago, no problems at all with one large Pittman can motor.

I will say that I have a dual-motored Pulmore locomotive that I put the ERR AC Commander into, it really improved the performance over the older LCRU2 that was previously controlling them. I was quite surprised at the better low speed performance.

As others have said, they do suck down the power, that's one of the major drawbacks.


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

I have wondered about the question posed by this thread. Kwikster and Lee Willis have given real world information about the answer. Thanks guys.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

I'd like to thank all of you who participated in this thread over the past couple of days, especially Lee Wills, Kwikster, servoguy, and gunrunnerjohn. I joined this forum just a couple of days ago and it's a welcome change from the other forum I just left after over a year there. This forum seems much more down to earth, more focused, and people who respond with what you're looking for. And by the way, gunrunnerjohn, pulling over 115 cars with 2 Legacy engines is definitely impressive!

Anyway, I picked up a Lionel SD-40 (1994 Illinois Central) with dual Pullmor motors in like-new condition for a song after dropping off the trouble-laden scale f3 at a Lionel service station. I brought it home, lubed it up, put in on the track, and couldn't believe the performance! This one has 12-wheel drive, with 2 powered 3 axle trucks. And you guys were right, it takes power from the transformer to get it going, but once up to speed, you can back off a little on the voltage, and it seemed to fly around the track effortlessly with 2 dummy F3Bs and 5 aluminum passenger cars, 4 lit, 1 a baggage car. I was totally amazed.

However, I did notice the seemingly "rougher" motor sounds and a little sparking, which I don't get with my other can-motored engines. So overall, I agree with Lee, in that the newer can motors are, better and smoother running, especially at low speeds. So, I ended up purchasing a matching 8-wheel powered (TMCC even though I run only conventional) F3B unit, which is on its way. I picked this up on Ebay for under $200 MIB, which isn't bad. This one is in transit now. I'm hoping that with the repaired F3A mated with to new powered F3B, this will take the strain of the F3A with only 2 powered axles (so six powered axles from both units) and give me ample power for some time to come. At least, I'm hoping this will be the solution.

It's fun having an older dual Pullmor-motored locomotive though, and I think the grandkids will get a kick out of it. If any of you have more to add, please feel free, and thanks again for your responses so far.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yellowstone Special said:


> It's fun having an older dual Pullmor-motored locomotive though, and I think the grandkids will get a kick out of it.


Yes! Gobs of power, traction, plus a little sturm and drang thrown in for good measure. It's sort of like having a '60s or '70s \big block muscle car like a 426 Hemi 'Cuda or 454 Chevelle. Improvements can be made, but those cars can never be beat!


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

The rougher motor sound is a drawback. I've managed to quiet mine quite a bit by lubricating but both of my pullmor motor engines do it. One is from 1952 and the other 1995. I don't mind it in the old engine as it feels right but the newer one has steam engine sounds and the pullmor motor sounds drown them out quite a bit. Takes away from the effect. For my newer engines I am preferring MTH (so much better smoke) over Lionel and don't plan to ever purchase another pullmor motor engine. I'll keep the 2 I have and enjoy them for what they are.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had the Lionel Conrail SD-40 with the dual motors for a few years, I upgraded it to command with the ERR AC Commander. It was a pulling brute, but it was pretty noisy and a power hog. The sound at speed would compete with the RailSounds board.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Yellowstone Special said:


> I'd like to thank all of you who participated in this thread over the past couple of days, especially Lee Wills, Kwikster, servoguy, and gunrunnerjohn. I joined this forum just a couple of days ago and it's a welcome change from the other forum I just left after over a year there. This forum seems much more down to earth, more focused, and people who respond with what you're looking for. And by the way, gunrunnerjohn, pulling over 115 cars with 2 Legacy engines is definitely impressive!


Your kind words are appreciated. I've been here for a bit now, for that very reason. Overall a great bunch of people here, always willing to help out. I only one one loco with a can motor, that being my PE berk. I hold a fondness for the real one as I can visit her easily, she's just 15 minutes away from me. I love my 2243 single pullmor motored A+B it pulls very well at moderate voltages. Properly lubed, you can temper the pullmor noise a bit, I prefer Lucas Red-N-Tacky on the worm gear. Servoguy disagrees with greases in general, but it tempers the noise enough to be worth it.

Carl


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Looks like there's been a new development in my quest for better power on the Santa Fe Super Chief. My trusty Lionel Service Station technician has informed me that it's probably not a good idea to mate a powered TMCC B unit to a powered conventional A unit. He stated that the motors could run at different speeds since both would not be TMCC and not synced. 

He's installing an ERR Cruise Commander in the conventional A unit which may be better for heavier loads. But the fact remains that the A unit still has only 2 powered axles (one on each truck) rather than the usual 4 powered axles. If the A unit fails again, I could have the motors taken out of the A unit and couple it to the powered B, and let the B do the pulling.

Anybody ever try this approach, or have any experience with it?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you have magnetraction, the leading truck should have magnetraction. If it doesn't have magnetractiion, you may have problem with it derailing.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

servoguy: These are both the newer scale Lionels, the A is conventional, the B is TMCC. Both units have the traction tires, but I don't think either one has Magnetraction.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have an El Capitan set, and the loco has both magnetraction and traction tires. Belt & suspenders.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

servoguy: I did not know that. I'll have to check into what I have later. The A unit is in the hands of the technician along with the box, etc. The B unit is in transit and I won't arrive until Thursday.

Thanks.


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