# 322AC pulling power



## Dewman (May 15, 2018)

I own a 322AC Hudson that doesn't pull more than 3 passenger cars effectively. I would like to add the #732 animated baggage car and the #735 animated station coach. Should I consider having the pull-mor treads glued on or is it a waste of time and money?


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

My 322AC (1950 production) easily pulls 4 heavyweight passenger cars around the layout on level track. It has pulled 3 heavyweights up a 2% grade, never tried more. It pulled 6 freight cars up the 2% grade. I have no experience adding traction tires to drive wheels not made for them.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Throw some electrical tape on the drive wheels and see the difference.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

You should be able to pull more than 3 passenger cars unless they are aluminum streamliners. My 322AC pulls 4 heavyweights like Tom's, from set #4613A. The 732 animated baggage car is heavy but I've pulled 4 New Haven coaches with a 732 and a heavyweight observation on the rear with no problems on a 6x8 layout. Make sure the axles are lubed and the track is clean and oil free and the 322AC drivers are also clean and oil free. I use a 22090 transformer that puts out 175 watts on each side. I would recommend at least a 100 watt transformer or larger. I don't have an animated coach and I don't have any experience adding pull-mor wheels or tread to non pull-mor engines.


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## Dewman (May 15, 2018)

Thanks guys for your response. Currently I'm pulling 2 #650 passenger cars and the #718 mail car on a 8x8 layout with an inner and outer loop. I use 4 #690 track clips connected to a 19B 300 watt transformer. I am dropping about 3 volts at the farthest distance under a load. Is the problem with the power loss or something in the engine? The track gets cleaned regularly.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The last time an owner thought it was the power I checked the coaches and the wheels could hardly turn. Oil goes a long way.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

cramden said:


> You should be able to pull more than 3 passenger cars unless they are aluminum streamliners. My 322AC pulls 4 heavyweights like Tom's, from set #4613A. The 732 animated baggage car is heavy but I've pulled 4 New Haven coaches with a 732 and a heavyweight observation on the rear with no problems on a 6x8 layout. Make sure the axles are lubed and the track is clean and oil free and the 322AC drivers are also clean and oil free. I use a 22090 transformer that puts out 175 watts on each side. I would recommend at least a 100 watt transformer or larger. I don't have an animated coach and I don't have any experience adding pull-mor wheels or tread to non pull-mor engines.


I always appreciate Camdens advice and knowledge. My question is: I have an AF 15B 110W Transformer and am thinking of going to a Lionel ZW Transformer because of the greater power. Will I see beter performance from my engines? The cost for a ZW is staggering compared to my 15B so I am undecided. (I hope that I won't highjack this thread.:laugh::laugh:


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I always appreciate Camdens advice and knowledge. My question is: I have an AF 15B 110W Transformer and am thinking of going to a Lionel ZW Transformer because of the greater power. Will I see beter performance from my engines? The cost for a ZW is staggering compared to my 15B so I am undecided. (I hope that I won't highjack this thread.:laugh::laugh:


Get a ZW.. I have 3 of them, plus a 30B...Nothing speaks louder than POWER!!!!!


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

flyernut said:


> Get a ZW.. I have 3 of them, plus a 30B...Nothing speaks louder than POWER!!!!!


Rather pricy. If I were into more operations I would be less reluctant. Maybe after the First-of-the-year medical deductions shock? What would be a "fair" price?


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> Rather pricy. If I were into more operations I would be less reluctant. Maybe after the First-of-the-year medical deductions shock? What would be a "fair" price?


They used to go for a dollar a watt,i.e. $275 for a 275 watt unit. I've seen them now for around $150, and the last one I bought I paid $10, that's TEN, dollars for it at a garage sale, in the original box.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I should be so lucky!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Flyernut finds bargains that seem to be unavailable to us mere mortals!
Having run Gilbert engines using 4B’s, 15B’s and 19B’s I saw no difference in performance with a steam engine and 4 lighted passenger cars on the track. Connecting a lot of auxiliary loads in addition to the train will show up a difference. The 300W single control 19B is obviously the winner when more than a train is connected.
I think the Lionel ZW is so popular because its maximum output voltage is higher than the 17V to 18V of the 19B and its minimum voltage is less than the 7V of the Gilbert transformers. 
If you want better performance use a non sinusoudal transformer. The MRC AH101 is a reasonably cost effective choice and is a full 270W. They are available for 50 cents/watt or less. I think the most impressive results for Gilbert engines are provided by the ZW-L. The output has a full 18V peak through most of the throttle settings. Of course its purchase price is also impressive and the operating improvement may not be worth the cost. The better the engine is maintained and runs the less the improvement.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

"Connecting a lot of auxiliary loads in addition to the train will show up a difference."
This may be my main problem. Maybe I should use a second power supply for the constant voltage requirements. I will try that. The secondary reason that I am reluctant is the size of the ZW. I would have to re-arrange my control buttons in order to accommodate a transformer larger that a 15B. Hmmm?


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

That's what you might try first. A second trans. for constant voltage requirements is a cheaper way to try before upgrading to a larger transformer. I have a 30B that is used for that purpose, but you don't need that size. A 4B or similar wattage can be used depending on how many accessories you have. For your 5x9 running a single train with one track the 15B is plenty of power to run trains. Of course, I also think the bigger the better when it comes to transformers so take my advise with a grain of salt.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Way back in the old days I used to connect all the track switches and accessories along with one of the two track loops to a 4B. When I would blow the billboard whistle the train would slow down! 
Then in the spirit of way too much power is almost enough I used two 19B's, each one dedicated to a loop of track, no other loads. A 15B was used just for the 4 sidings and a 4B was used for the turnouts and accessories. The trains ran well!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have posted this previously but here is the control panel for one of those layouts. Keep in mind the layout only existed for 4 weeks, then was disassembled. I had way more initiative and energy back then!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Broke, I would use a second transformer for accessories. I know you can use 1 but 
those other things do draw power. LOL, they are not like LEDs. I have a ZW transformer
and I would say I love it. I used a 12 B before the ZW. Like someone mentioned it will
get down below the 7 watts of an AF transformer. I saw a difference right off. I can run my trains pretty slow with the ZW and I know you like slow. My ZW has a volt range of
2.5v to 20 v. That's a nice range. But they do cost. Figure if you are patient you could get a nice one around 125. If you decide to spend the money make sure you get one
that has been serviced recently ( that's mainly the rollers replaced) and make sure it has been upgraded with a modern circuit breaker. Replacing the rollers is not a hard job. I did mine. The seller of mine said it was serviced but didn't say how long ago. It was ready for rollers so not serviced recently. The circuit breaker is not a hard job either, but they do cost something. The modern circuit breakers will blow in 1 to 3 seconds, the original breaker takes 10 or more seconds.
Mine had been upgraded with a modern circuit breaker.

And for how many cars you can pull, make sure your cars are rolling very easily. Makes a huge difference.

No matter how many cars I am trying to pull I have never stalled the motor. I just spin wheels. I need more TRACTION.
Should I try sand? Just kidding.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Too cold to go out to the layout today! 7 f this morning. I have no idea what it is in the garage but I will wait till next week when the temp gets above freezing.:laugh: I will try a second transformer for the accessories. Thanks all for the suggestions!


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> I have posted this previously but here is the control panel for one of those layouts. Keep in mind the layout only existed for 4 weeks, then was disassembled. I had way more initiative and energy back then!
> 
> View attachment 478950


Amazing layout Tom! I am like you now in as much I don't have the push to do what I use to do.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AmFlyer said:


> Flyernut finds bargains that seem to be unavailable to us mere mortals!
> Having run Gilbert engines using 4B’s, 15B’s and 19B’s I saw no difference in performance with a steam engine and 4 lighted passenger cars on the track. Connecting a lot of auxiliary loads in addition to the train will show up a difference. The 300W single control 19B is obviously the winner when more than a train is connected.
> I think the Lionel ZW is so popular because its maximum output voltage is higher than the 17V to 18V of the 19B and its minimum voltage is less than the 7V of the Gilbert transformers.
> If you want better performance use a non sinusoudal transformer. The MRC AH101 is a reasonably cost effective choice and is a full 270W. They are available for 50 cents/watt or less. I think the most impressive results for Gilbert engines are provided by the ZW-L. The output has a full 18V peak through most of the throttle settings. Of course its purchase price is also impressive and the operating improvement may not be worth the cost. The better the engine is maintained and runs the less the improvement.


Strictly luck my friend.. The wife and myself were out driving around on a Sat. morning and came across a huge garage sale, about a half acre of stuff. It seemed like everything was going for 10 bucks,lol.. I noticed the ZW in a box under a table, and it was really dirty. I asked the lady who was running the sale, "how much for this old, beat-up transformer, and does it work"? She said she didn't know if it worked and told me $10 bucks. I bought it.. Further down a few tables there was a almost brand-new looking generator with a Robin engine. I asked her again how much and does it work, and she definitely told me it doesn't work at all, it won't run.. Seems the guy who owned it put it away for a year or two, and the gas got rancid and the carb was plugged up. She said the owner said just get rid of it for anything and the price was 10 bucks,lol!! An hour or so later that baby was purring like a kitten, and I had a total of $20 bucks into it.. I was offered $100 for it the next day and turned it down.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Like I said I have 3 ZW's, but only 1 in operation..The other 2 are on the shelf waiting their turn...Here's what I have now...30b, running 2 loops of Flyer...ZW running a O gauge loop, and a flyer loop using the outside handles...Both inside throttles are powering lights. Lionel RW powering more lights. Flyer 8b powering both billboard whistles.






.


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## race944t (Jan 5, 2016)

It seems this thread morfed into a transformer discussion. One key point was that the operator was losing 3v at the far end of the layout despite using 4 690 connections. There should be minimal voltage loss with that many connections if wired correctly. Make sure you are running separate wires directly from the transformer and the appropriate size wire to the 690s. Second, check the amperage draw. Anything over 2 amps for a 322AC is suspect of a failing motor. A little oil may go a long way, but new brushes, springs and a clean armature give lots of pulling power.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I interpreted the OP’s issue was lack of traction rather than a stalling motor. 3V drop is very high. If the voltage at the transformer is 12V and the current draw is 2A the resistance in the track, wiring and connections is 1.5 ohms. But even with that drop the 322AC should still pull At least 4 and as many as 6 of the 652/3/4 heavyweights. The motor impedance is about 6 ohms under load so the total in the circuit is 7.5 ohms. At 16V transformer output that is still over 2A.
Maintenance of the engine is for sure important and will make a big difference in the engine’s performance.
When I assemble a layout with Gilbert track I clean all the track pins and apply a very light coating of conductive grease. I also clean the edges of the track where the 690’s will be installed. I rebend the lever under the fiber base of the 690 to assure a tight fit and use a small amount of conductive grease when attaching the 690. I usually have 10 sections of track between the 690 clips and the voltage drop is negligible.


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## drbobderrig (Nov 12, 2018)

*You might check out the Dual Power 027 Power Supply*

These things have so much more power than my old 15B transformer. Instead of a normal sine way you get with regular AC this is a square wave instead. I have engines would barely run that run like they are new out of the box. way more power

dr bob


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## drbobderrig (Nov 12, 2018)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MRC-Hobby-...h=item286f441edb:g:u2UAAOSwrmRb5i2p:rk:5:pf:0

There should be 2 handheld controls which I don't see but you can see what they llok like..

dr bob


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

This eBay listing shows one handheld controller. Some of the early AH101's were packaged with just one. I would only buy one that had 2 controllers. Over the years 2 of my 8 handhelds have developed some operating problems.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Broke, I have several different sizes of AF transformers including a 30B. I also have 2 ZWs. Best things I ever bought. Great low speed movement plus it was easy to adapt TMCC with one of my ZW. Since all my engines are pre-1966, the TMCC is used for track voltage and therefore engine control, plus all 18 of my switches. There are was no attempt at using the TMCC for what they were designed for since I have no TMCC engines. It just gives me a walk around hand held throttle and great slow, low speed action. 
My vote is to buy a ZW. I have had one of mine for 10 years the other 5 years. The first cost $250.00. The second one I paid $200.00. Both have been gone through by a repair person which I highly recommend. Since then, they have came down in price.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Without question the Lionel ZW is a great choice. For info the default starting voltage on the AH101 is 7V, but with the non sinusoidal waveform some engines respond like the voltage is higher. The starting voltage can be manually set as low as 3V but unfortunately the AH101 does not remember the lower setting so it has to be redone every time the transformer is turned on.


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## Dewman (May 15, 2018)

Thanks guys for all your inputs. I currently run 10ga wire from the transformer to a buss bar under the table and 16ga wire to the clips. I do have more than 10 sections between clips. I did clean all the pins before assembling the tracks but I did not clean the sides before installing the clips. I will have to check again but I'm sure that I am drawing more that 2 amps. Maybe its time for service and a ZW.


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