# question about operations



## sedfred2 (May 16, 2015)

i am going to build an 8x2 foot layout soon, it will be an shortline industrial switching layout, the yard will have multiple industries, but how do i use them? do i just sort cars and send them to their respective industries or does it work a different way? someday when i have my own place i will expand upon it, it will have rdc service and street running, it will be inspired by an an old rail line called the burford spur that has only one customer now, the others closed down a few years ago, there was just one big yard with multiple industries and that's what i'm aiming for


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sedfred2 said:


> i am going to build an 8x2 foot layout soon, it will be an shortline industrial switching layout, the yard will have multiple industries, but how do i use them? do i *just sort cars and send them to their respective industries* or does it work a different way? someday when i have my own place i will expand upon it, it will have rdc service and street running, it will be inspired by an an old rail line called the burford spur that has only one customer now, the others closed down a few years ago, there was just one big yard with multiple industries and that's what i'm aiming for


That sounds good to me. What else can you do.
Sometimes they will sort them out in a big yard, then send them to their destinations.

But you won't have the room to do that.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

As long as your yard has a siding to do runaround moves it should be real easy to setup some cars to take to the industry spots. Just make up the cars for facing point & trailing point switch moves. Do you have a track plan yet?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

One of the factors that make a switching layout more fun is to have
industries that ship to buyers.

Examples:

Meat processor sells to Food merchant

Sand and Gravel company sells sand to loco service area 
or to a construction company.

Less than carload freight station receives loads for small merchants.

Oil facility sells diesel fuel to loco service area.

An Electric distributor sells generators to Power Plant.

Coal company sells coal to Power Plant.

Though you won't have a main to run trains on, try to have
a long track that you can use to build and break a train.

You can have 2 or 3 shippers on one team track. That leads
to interesting switching moves. Also, have industry tracks
that require a loco to push car in, as well as tracks that the
loco backs a car in. This requires a 'run around' or
passing siding.

Don


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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

*Operation*



sedfred2 said:


> i am going to build an 8x2 foot layout soon, it will be an shortline industrial switching layout, the yard will have multiple industries, but how do i use them? do i just sort cars and send them to their respective industries or does it work a different way? someday when i have my own place i will expand upon it, it will have rdc service and street running, it will be inspired by an an old rail line called the burford spur that has only one customer now, the others closed down a few years ago, there was just one big yard with multiple industries and that's what i'm aiming for


Railroads haul cars from someplace where there is stuff to someplace where there isn't Some industries ship commodities, some recieve commodities. For every shipper there is a reciever.

Model railroad operation is simulating those movements.

The easiest way is to figure out what industries use what cars and then spot those cars at those industries. Switching by car type. The Tool company gets a boxcar.

The next level up is to assign specific cars to specific industries. The Tool company get the MP 365201.

Then people add commodities, frequencies and spots. The Tool company gets an empty 50 ft plain boxcar for loading metal stampings every other day, the outbound shipment is going to St Louis, so the yardmaster selects MP365201 (because the MP serves St Louis) and spots it at door #2 the shipping department.

There are all sorts of methods to facilitate an organize this movement, every thing from switchlists hand written on a scrap of paper to tags on cars, car vards and waybills, switch list forms, and switch lists generated by computer.

Kalmbach has published several books on operations. If you want something more organized, I would suggest reading one of those.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

It would be more likely MP 365201 had already been setup by the tool company to carry their kinds of loads. There might be other boxcars setup for the same kind of load depending on the frequency of the loads being shipped & the distance to the receiving company. There might even be other receiving companies getting the same kind of load. So MP 365201 & similar boxcars would only be going to other companies that received the same kind of load.


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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

lajrmdlr said:


> It would be more likely MP 365201 had already been setup by the tool company to carry their kinds of loads. There might be other boxcars setup for the same kind of load depending on the frequency of the loads being shipped & the distance to the receiving company. There might even be other receiving companies getting the same kind of load. So MP 365201 & similar boxcars would only be going to other companies that received the same kind of load.


In the vast majority of cases it would be rare for there to be any permanent internal modifications to a boxcar to carry a particular load. About the only ones I know of are the auto loaders used in the 1920's-1950's and some RBL's that were modified with tanks in them to carry "beer concentrate" from a brewery to a bottling plant. Even auto parts are only restricted by the type of parts racks carried in the cars, but those racks are interchangeable between cars, being specialized pallets not attached to the cars. A boxcar is restricted to carrying auto dashboards because of the racks, but unload the racks and the car can carry anything.

What the customers care about is the internal dimensions of the cars. They plan their loading based on those internal dimensions. One paper company might prefer MP365xxx series boxcars because the inside width allows 3 rolls of paper to be put across the car, while another shipper might prefer the 379xxx series car because the extra interior height allows pallets to be stacked 4 high. Some shippers want plug doors for the smooth interior walls. Shippers of valuable stuff often request load divider cars because the load dividers can be blocked in place adding extra security for the shipment.

On the other hand tank cars and covered hopper are very commodity specific. Tank cars often stay in the same service for years because of the commodity (and they are typically leased to a specific customer.) Covered hoppers and tank cars are purpose built with car designs, unload arrangements, interior linings and loading arrangements suited to specific service. Grain cars won't be used for plastic pellets and cars for sugar won't load cement.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

Dave
If your reply is really correct then why are so many boxcars (as well as other freight car types) marked return to sender when empty?


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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

There are two types of cars: general service cars and specially equipped cars. General service cars are in pools that any shipper can use and railroads can use for any appropriate loading. Plain boxcars, mill gondolas, bottom dump hoppers, plain flat cars all fall into those types of cars. Specially equipped cars are insulated boxcars, load divider cars, plug door cars, auto racks, intermodal cars, tank cars, covered hoppers, rotary unloading cars, etc. They are designed for specific uses and can be assigned to pools for specific customers or leased to specific customers.

Just because a car is leased or assigned to a pool doesn't mean that it has been modified for that customer, it just means that its been assigned for that customer's use. One of the major reasons is that the specially equipped cars cost more than the general service cars and are in shorter supply than the general service cars so an industry may want to reserve the proper type of car for its shipment or have a ready supply.

A brewery will have a pool of RBL's (insulated, plug door, food grade boxcars). Those cars are designed for loading beer. They are insulated, have a smooth interior and wide doors for forklifts, have strong floors designed to support forklifts and are 70-100 ton capy and are probably load divider equipped. But there is nothing inside the cars makes it a "beer car". Its just a big empty box. A box designed to hold beer. It will be stenciled to return to the brewery because they don't want anybody else messing up their food grade car and they want to make sure they have enough cars to load. If the empties are diverted to other loads that means it will take weeks to get the empties back and they will run short of RBL's. Since the brewery/railroads are spending money to protect the service and business, they want to make sure the cars they bought to protect that business stay in the service. Hence the stencils.

Auto parts area bit different, when empty, they aren't really empty. They are filled with "racks" which are actually big parts bins that stack inside the car. Each bin is designed to hold a specific part (fenders, headlamp assemblies, doors, engines, etc) so each "empty" auto parts car (which is full of racks) has to go back to the plant that uses those racks. If a "empty" car has headlight racks then it can't be sent to a fender plant , without removing the headlight racks.

Any cars whose initials end with an "X" are private owner cars and are owned or leased to a particular customer. A CCBX car is leased by Union Carbide and will only carry Union Carbide products between Union Carbide plants and Union Carbide customers.

TTX auto racks were assigned to specific auto manufacturers/plants in the early days but in the 1980's they perfected a universal tie down system so any auto rack can be used for any model made by any manufacturer.


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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

Many times modelers force industries or don't think enough about possibilities of industries.

In day's gone by almost every layout had a "coal mine". Why? Instead of a coal MINE, why not a power plant, a steam plant, a coal distributor? There are dozens of those for every coal mine. You still get to switch hopper cars of coal, its just instead of empties in, loads out, its loads in empties out.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I model the Connecticut River valley. I don't have a coal mine, but I do have a power plant (historically, the last rail served customer on the part of the line I model).

Loads come from Cedar Hill Yard (staging), empties go back.


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

What you're doing is basically the same as what I'm doing, but possibly on a little larger scale. My layout is built for switching even though it occupies a 17 x 24 foot room. 

It is set us as a point to point layout, with a yard and engine facility at each end. I also have three hidden staging tracks that will allow for continuous running, but I very seldom do this. 

I will bring a train in from the hidden staging tracks into one of the yards. The train is broken down and sorted and a local peddler freight is made up. It will leave the yard and service various industries on the main line, dropping off loaded cars and picking up outbound cars, either empties of loaded cars. The trai will then return to one of the yards and any outbound cars are made into an outbound train which heads into the hidden staging tracks. 

I also have a number of industries that supply other industries on the layout which generates additional moves. I have a number of grain elevators that supply a flour mill on th elayout. A logging spur loads logs to a lumber mill which in turn sends finished lumber to a lumber yard and a furniture factory. 

Don mentioned freight stations. I model the transition era and back then freight stations were very important to small communities. There want any UPS or FedEx back in the 50's. The freight station would handle a lot of commodities that supplied small towns, anything from clothing, food, machinery, hardware or anything a town would need. The Railway Express Agency (REA) would them deliver these goods to the business and individuals in the surrounding area as well as picking up outbound goods. Sometimes small local trucking companies would also work with REA to make the pickups and deliveries. 

When I was growing up, I can remember seeing REA trucks running all over the place and the freight station was almost always a very busy place.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

The new BLMA Santa Fe Bx-166 is being advertised as a "beer & wine" boxcar. The attached image is of a real Bx-166 on the Los Angeles Junction Ry. Charlie Slater took this picture in the LAJ Ry B Yard 10-16-74. The car had just been to Murray Bag delivering paper. It was waiting to be picked up by Santa Fe. This insulated car (XLI) was only 2 months old & being used to carry a load that needed to be kept dry. 
Am a little curious about the two part Consolidated Stencil (white on black boxes) since those didn't start till 1978.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Dave mentioned various ways to organize switching operations.

I use a car card system enhanced by post it notes.

I have a cards, each describing every car, it's type, road name
and number, color and any other necessary identification.

I then prepare the post it notes as if individual car orders. It
will say where to pick it up and where to spot it. The Post its are stuck 
on the car cards.

I will also check the car cards for those already spotted at
industries, rewrite the post its to route it to a train or another
industry.

I then build a train of the cars from the yards that will be
spotted at industries and begin the movements. Exchanging
'empty' or just loaded cars for the new ones.

A switching order of say, 15 cars will give you 2 or 3 hours
of switching operations.

Don


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

Thanks for mentioning the card system Don. I have operated on some out of state friends layout using the card system and and it works very well. 

I personally don't use it myself as I have been switching on my layout for over 25 years without it and have no problem. One thing that I did though was to build a switching problem into every town. For my a typical train is 10 to 14 cars (limited to the length of passing sidings) and a normal run takes anywhere from 2 to 4 hours depending on the industries being served. 

If I had other people operating I would probably consider a card system, but being that I am a lone operator, I don't.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

Delete!


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

My preference is switch lists vs car cards. Biggest reason is they aren't prototypical at all. Second reason is they are a real pain to use & it takes up alot of space to "work" them. A switch list can be filled out by hand or done by computer. It's better to print them on card stock to make it easier to write on &/or mark them. My LAJ switch list (see attachments) is the same size as a ETT so can use that as backing also & to carry them. It's based on the Santa Fe switch list because they always had a controlling interest till 1972 when LAJ became wholly owned by them.


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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

lajrmdlr said:


> My preference is switch lists vs car cards. Biggest reason is they aren't prototypical at all.


Sorta. If you go back far enough there was a document called a "car ticket" that was about the size of a CC&WB and had almost exactly the same info as a CC&WB and was used by prototype railroads more or less the same way CC&WB are used on model railroads.

People get all hung up on the physical form of the CC&WB, it being a little card. What the CC&WB represents is a prototype waybill. The concept of splitting the car information part of the waybill from the destination/commodity part of the waybill is solely to allow the different parts to be recycled without having to rewrite everything every time.

If you take a CC&WB (the "waybill" portion in the CC pocket) and photocopy it you can flatten it out into one piece of paper. Several layout owners even use a clear plastic baseball card sleeve with the car number on it and then slip a miniature waybill into the pocket making it look like a miniature version of a real waybill. So conductors didn't carry car cards in modern eras, but they did carry waybills for 80-90 years. If you understand that the CC&WB represents the prototype waybill document then they are "prototypical".



> Second reason is they are a real pain to use & it takes up alot of space to "work" them.


And that is the major objection is the maintenance and handling of them. For big layouts and big trains it can be a pain to handle them. On the other hand I know lots of layouts that operate with them (I've only operated on about 6 layouts in the last 25 years that didn't use them, so they can't be that horrible.)



> A switch list can be filled out by hand or done by computer.


And that is the pain with lists. Having to hand write them or having to maintain a computer system to keep track of things. On a small layout with small trains and small tracks, having to hand write a switch list isn't a huge barrier. On larger layouts and larger trains, it can be a lot more time consuming.

This next point is also pointed at larger layouts. In most cases a car will have to be handled by more than one train. The local pulls the car from industry and takes it to the yard, the switcher switches the cars and builds an outbound train. The train takes the car to the next yard. The switcher their switches the train and puts the car on an outbound local. The local spots the car at destination. Something has to "remember" where the car is going and possibly what is in it. Something has to know where the car is in the yard. With CC&WB the "memory" is the CC&WB itself. The CC&WB is moved around from pocket to pocket as the car moves around (which is also prototypical, that's how railroad's operated in the 70's and 80's when inventories were kept on computer punch cards). With the computer system that info is kept on computer tables in the database. With handwritten lists the info has to be transcribed from list to list. Not as much fun.

The semi-most prototypical way to operate is a combination of the two methods. Use CC&WB to represent the waybills and then use handwritten lists for the switching. That combination is prototypical for operations from about 1900 through the 1970's.



> It's better to print them on card stock to make it easier to write on &/or mark them. My LAJ switch list (see attachments) is the same size as a ETT so can use that as backing also & to carry them.


That is the classic switch list, a variation of that type of switchlist was used by virtually every railroad in the US at one time or another.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I bought the car card system from Micromark 

It comes with 3 wood card holders designed to
attach to the layout fascia. It also includes a
supply of various type cards.









I use only 2 of the card holders and gave the
3rd to my brother who then converted from
the switch list to the car card system.

I don't use my cards per the Micromark suggestions.
I use the post it notes for pickup or 
destination instructions. They simply temporarily
attach to the permanent car cards thus saving
a good deal of writing.

You don't need to buy your cards. You can make them
on a computer and print them out. You see the
information each carries in my link.

Don


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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

DonR said:


> I bought the car card system from Micromark
> 
> I don't use my cards per the Micromark suggestions.
> I use the post it notes for pickup or
> ...


I guess I am confused on how the post it notes would save on writing, since you would have to write out the post it notes.

The idea with the car cards is to fold up the bottom portion of the car card tape the sides to form a pocket. Then the waybills or any other instructions, can be slipped in the pocket. If you want to change the destination, change the waybill. If you want to add additional instructions, slip another piece of paper with the instruction in the pocket.

I have my regular waybills (destination station, block, consignee, commodity and car type) and then I slip a variety of waybills in place or in front of the regular waybill to modify the operation.

I have "hold for agent" waybills that say to hold for the agent at a certain place. That's how I create a "pool" of empties for loading. I have block cards that just have the 4 positions with a block name. That creates quick and dirty billing for outbound or through business. There are local work bills, they say which local is supposed to pull or spot a car. One might read "Local 741 spot this car" or "Local 741 pull this car". If I am on Local 741 and find either of those cards I know I have to work that car. If I am on Local 742, then I would leave those cars alone. That way when I do the billing before the session I can bill the outbounds and spots for locals in both directions at the same time, but don't have to worry about the crews getting the wrong cars.

In any case all of these cards were printed up once and used for years, without requiring any thing written. That's the idea of CC&WB, set it up once and not have to write or print out anything else until something changes or wears out.



> You don't need to buy your cards. You can make them
> on a computer and print them out.


CC&WB are quite easy to roll your own. If you are just testing then paper is fine, but for something more sturdy, 65 lb cardstock will go through most printers.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

If you want to use a card system you don't have to buy anything. You can download the cards from here http://mrtrains.com/rr/layout/operations.html all you then need to do is construct a box to hold them.


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## sedfred2 (May 16, 2015)

i have a basic idea of what i wil do, i will have a yard with a flour mill, slaughterhouse, lumber yard, and maybe a few other ones. it will lead to a city with street running and crossing signals, i do not have a track plan yet though. i will also have a water and coaling tower


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## lmackattack (Oct 21, 2010)

Not sure if it has been mentioned. But JMRI is a great way to maintain cars and use for operations. It will even build a diffrent switch list for you each time you terminate the previous.

You may also want to have a few staging tracks or interchange tracks so cars can move to and from your railroad.


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## sedfred2 (May 16, 2015)

i don't think i have enough room for staging, though i wish i did! i have a bsic idea but i seem to be having trouble with naming and track planning, it will take place in BC. i have come up with a paint scheme for diesels, it will be mostly yellow, the top and the area over the windows will be black, on the nose will be a black square with the logo on it, black bands will run from either side of the nose and run down to the end of the locomotive, in the bands will be the company name in white, the back will be black as well as the trucks and fuel tank, try to imagine this on an f unit. i also want it to have operating crossing signals with sound, any idea where to get those? since it takes place in the early 60's the bells must be mechanical


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## lmackattack (Oct 21, 2010)

Your interchange or staging tracks don't need to be very large. Even a spur track that runs off the edge of the layout can be considered a interchange track. Regardless JMRI let's you note the length of each track and will only send "x" amount of cars to your spurs , industries, etc... The program can be modified so cars move to and from shippers and recivers or between yard and shippers etc...it's worth a look in my opinion simply because it's automated and you just print off the reports, no need for car card systems. But that's my preference


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