# Need to advance my knowledge of electronics



## Newtown Joe

OK, I think it's time to grow past the basics. I want to better understand about current flow. How does the current flow through the tracks? Is it clockwise? Counter clockwise? both directions? Does it start from the lockon?

I asks the questions because I run two trains at once, one inside the other. The inside train slows as it approaches just before the lockon then at some point takes off at high speed. If I increase the speed it starts going faster and faster (too fast) and doesn't stop by the lockon.
I can't get an even speed and need to constantly adjust the current flow at the transformer.
Because it slows as it approaches the lockon it seems to mean the current is flowing clockwise and diminishes as it gets further from the transformer lockon.

Also, I have one transformer that runs both trains and I noticed that they effect each other.
When one draws more current the other slows.

I know you can add a lockon further down the track and I will try that soon, but I'd like to better understand how the current makes it all work. Any knowledge transfer from those who understand this would be appreciated.


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## Brakeman Jake

It's obvious you're running DC,so there's no clockwise or else...the power supply simply pushes positive to the right track and negative to the other,wich then spreads in both directions from the connection point to the track.

You may have a combined problem...one being that the track metal has a resistance wich means power slightly reduces as distance from the power supply increases.But then the most common problem are the track joiners.They are exposed to changes in temperature and humidity levels and often lose part of their conductivity as time goes on.What most modelers do is having a "buss" wire (generally 14 or 16 Ga.) following the track under the layout that is linked by lighter gauge (20-22) feeders every six feet or so.This keeps the current level constant throughout the layout,wether DC or DCC.

If after installing feeders,you get one train running fine all around but still have problems when a second train is used,you'll have to look at your power supply.Specially if coming from a train set,it may very well not have enough stamina to run two trains.A new one may be in order.


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## Newtown Joe

Brakeman Jake said:


> It's obvious you're running DC,so there's no clockwise or else...the power supply simply pushes positive to the right track and negative to the other,wich then spreads in both directions from the connection point to the track.
> 
> You may have a combined problem...one being that the track metal has a resistance wich means power slightly reduces as distance from the power supply increases.But then the most common problem are the track joiners.They are exposed to changes in temperature and humidity levels and often lose part of their conductivity as time goes on.What most modelers do is having a "buss" wire (generally 14 or 16 Ga.) following the track under the layout that is linked by lighter gauge (20-22) feeders every six feet or so.This keeps the current level constant throughout the layout,wether DC or DCC.
> 
> If after installing feeders,you get one train running fine all around but still have problems when a second train is used,you'll have to look at your power supply.Specially if coming from a train set,it may very well not have enough stamina to run two trains.A new one may be in order.


Part of my problem is my layout is on the basement floor which has vinyl tiles, no wood. I keep the tracks stable with locktight gobs in strategic places. The weight of the train moves the track pieces and I loose good joined sections. For other reasons I don't want a built up wood based layout as moving may be in my near future. On the straight sections I bought four length track to avoid joining alltogether, so it's on the curves that my track tends to loosen. My problem isn't lack of power as I can make them both fly at the same time. It's uneven supply of power.
I think the feeder idea is too involved without a raised base so I'll try an added lockon further down the track.


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## fcwilt

This is a start:

http://electricaltechnology.weebly.com/electrical-current-theory.html

Once you understand this you should be able to apply it to your layout and determine where the problem is.

Another poster suggested you are having problems with the track joiners and poor conduction through them. I would agree that is the most likely problem.


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## Newtown Joe

fcwilt said:


> This is a start:
> 
> http://electricaltechnology.weebly.com/electrical-current-theory.html
> 
> Once you understand this you should be able to apply it to your layout and determine where the problem is.
> 
> Another poster suggested you are having problems with the track joiners and poor conduction through them. I would agree that is the most likely problem.


I agree the track connectors need to be looked at very carefully. Because of my track layout they tend to move and loosen. I wish they made curved track sections in one piece like the straight ones. The fewer connections the better.


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## Big Ed

Joe when you start a thread like this you should tell them that your running O gauge.
You should be running AC?
What transformer are you using?

Clean the pins real good and make sure they are tight in the rail.
How big of a layout are we talking?


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## Big Ed

Newtown Joe said:


> I agree the track connectors need to be looked at very carefully. Because of my track layout they tend to move and loosen. I wish they made curved track sections in one piece like the straight ones. The fewer connections the better.


They do make O gauge flex track like your talking about.
We are talking O, right?


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## rkenney

Servoguy has made a number of posts about bending the track joiners slightly to achieve an 'interference' fit. He claims his track are laid on the floor and his solution accommodates this.

From personal experience with post war Lionel the weight of many of the locomotives will gradually pull floor layouts apart. 

Another way to get around this might be to simply tie the tracks together with small wires or plastic wire ties.

You sound like you already know the problem without the theory.:smokin:


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## Newtown Joe

My track is 027.


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## DonR

Joe you are really taking this old dude back to the 
days of WWII when as a pre teen I was running a
Marx electric train on 027 tracks on a confiscated ping pong
table in the basement. I was having the same
problems as you. Those doggone pins that connect the
rail sections do not always make good electrical
contact, especially with the high humidity usual
to basements. And the vibration of the running
train will shake the track sections apart.

I'm trying to recall, it seems there were some
metal snap pieces designed to keep the track
sections together. Any of you 3 rail guys know
about those?

The more track connections from your transformer
that you can make the smoother your trains will run.

Don


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## rkenney

Newtown Joe said:


> My track is 027.


Servoguy's technique for track is for tubular track. It shouldn't make any difference if it is O or O27.
:dunno:


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## sjm9911

Servoguys technique will work as will the track ties. I cant remember there name either, ill look it up in the am.


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## sjm9911

Here they are on e bay. Ask around someone might have some.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/131303274551?nav=SEARCH


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## Newtown Joe

Never knew these existed and are available both new and vintage. Definitely worth a look. The question is do they really work as intended.


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## Big Ed

big ed said:


> You should be running AC?
> What transformer are you using?
> 
> Clean the pins real good and make sure they are tight in the rail.
> How big of a layout are we talking?





big ed said:


> They do make O gauge flex track like your talking about.


:dunno:


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## Newtown Joe

big ed said:


> :dunno:


Two tracks, outside about twelve feet and inside about 7 feet with a KW 190 transformer.


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## Howard1975

I had the same type of problem, trying to keep my track together, when I was active in Lionel 027 type trains. Although I have never used the track clips that Lionel sells, those track clips should help keep the track together better. All I did was tighten the connections with a pair of pliers, crimping the ends to tighten the pins on my 027 and "0" gauge track. That method helped a little bit. Track clips would have been an additional help to keep the track together.

You need a clean and tight fit for a good electrical connection. Extra lock-ons wired in will also help distribute the electricity more evenly, thereby making the speed and control of your trains to run more evenly around the layout.

Your Lionel KW 190 transformer should have plenty of power to run two trains, because it was designed for that. While the KW is rated at 190 watts, in reality it can only supply between 130 and 140 watts of continuous power. With two throttles being used that is around 65-70 watts per throttle. The KW is rated at 10 amps. 

Older Lionel transformers are able to supply all of their power to any single post, as long as there is nothing else connected to another post. All posts on the transformer have to "share" the total power output. 

Please understand that ALL Lionel prewar and postwar transformers were rated on their input power, rather than what they could output. The true output power is perhaps 70 percent of the rated input power. Doing the math therefore a KW, which is rated at 190 watts, will only put out approximately between 130 and 140 watts total. This is regardless of how many terminals are in active use. So for instance, If one terminal is using 60 watts, then there are only about 70 watts left over for everything else. On the other hand, if one terminal only needs 20 watts, you still have another 110 watts freely available on the other posts. 


By contrast Modern-era Lionel transformers really do put out their rated power, which is generally stated as volt-amps rather than watts.


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## Newtown Joe

Lots of good info, thanks. I want to try the track clips but they're on Ebay for a lot of twelve. I'd like to buy a few first and I only need them in strategic spots where the track tends to separate, like on curves. I'll wait to see if a smaller amount can be bought.


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## fcwilt

Newtown Joe said:


> Lots of good info, thanks. I want to try the track clips but they're on Ebay for a lot of twelve. I'd like to buy a few first and I only need them in strategic spots where the track tends to separate, like on curves. I'll wait to see if a smaller amount can be bought.


Well if $7 is too pricey, you could always hold them together with black nylon tie wraps, that would probably run around $4-5 and you would get enough to do all of your layout.


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## Newtown Joe

They don't call me squeaky for nothing.:smilie_auslachen:


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## Newtown Joe

*Track Connectors*



fcwilt said:


> Well if $7 is too pricey, you could always hold them together with black nylon tie wraps, that would probably run around $4-5 and you would get enough to do all of your layout.



OK, I sprang for a dozen at $10.00 and free shipping on Ebay. Do they just snap on?


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## fcwilt

Newtown Joe said:


> OK, I sprank for a dozen at $10.00 and free shipping on Ebay. Do they just snap on?


??? Sprank ???

Wait...

$7 was too much... so you spent $10... 

My brain hurts. 

Yes they just clip on - I think once you get them you will see how they work.

Good luck.


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## Newtown Joe

*Lionel grammer class*



fcwilt said:


> ??? Sprank ???
> 
> Wait...
> 
> $7 was too much... so you spent $10...
> 
> My brain hurts.
> 
> Yes they just clip on - I think once you get them you will see how the work.
> 
> Good luck.


OK, you got me on "sprank" (typo) but what is "you will see how the work" mean?:laugh:

Twelve for ten bucks and free shipping is the best deal on Ebay I could find.

Clip on is good, I can handle that.


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## fcwilt

Newtown Joe said:


> Twelve for ten bucks and free shipping is the best deal on Ebay I could find.


So that link to 12 for $7 was bogus?


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## Newtown Joe

*Track Clips*



fcwilt said:


> So that link to 12 for $7 was bogus?


No, but add the $6.80 shipping and you're almost at $15.00. Mine were 12 for $9.99 and FREE shipping.

The devil is in the details.


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## sjm9911

Good for you joe, as I looked and only found the o scale ones. No o27 ones.


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## Newtown Joe

sjm9911 said:


> Good for you joe, as I looked and only found the o scale ones. No o27 ones.


So I was correct in assuming that o guage and o27 guage connectors are not the same size. Technically isn't o27 guage a subset of o guage. This can be confusing, but when I saw the listing that specified for o27 track I felt sure it was what I needed. 

I know 0 gauge is higher track


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## Big Ed

Just nail them to the floor.


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## Newtown Joe

big ed said:


> Just nail them to the floor.


I'll need concrete nails.


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## sjm9911

Might be cheaper then the clips!


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## Newtown Joe

*Cheaper But...*



sjm9911 said:


> Might be cheaper then the clips!


I can always resell the clips, hard to sell used nails.


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## Howard1975

Newtown Joe said:


> OK, I sprank for a dozen at $10.00 and free shipping on Ebay. Do they just snap on?


Please let us know, when you get the track clips, if that helps.


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## Newtown Joe

Howard1975 said:


> Please let us know, when you get the track clips, if that helps.


They're on their way. I'll let you know.


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## Big Ed

They should help hold the track together.
That is why they made them.


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## rkenney

big ed said:


> They should help hold the track together.
> That is why they made them.


Ed, you have an amazing grasp of the obvious!:laugh:

Don't tell me you have never had a product that didn't deliver on its intended purpose.hwell:


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## Big Ed

rkenney said:


> Ed, you have an amazing grasp of the obvious!:laugh:
> 
> Don't tell me you have never had a product that didn't deliver on its intended purpose.hwell:



Never.


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## Newtown Joe

*Track Clips*



big ed said:


> Never.


These things have been around for a long time so it's hard to believe they don't work.

There must be someone out there that has used them. How it go?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Track clips for O and O27 are different.


*O27 Track Clip*










*O Track Clip*


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## Newtown Joe

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Track clips for O and O27 are different.




Got that and bought the 027


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## Newtown Joe

*Got 'em*

I'll try them out tonight and report back soon.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Boy, those must have been pricy, looks like new!


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## Newtown Joe

*Not much*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Boy, those must have been pricy, looks like new!


Pretty good price but now I'll have "made in China" all around my layout


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## Newtown Joe

*Ther're on!*



Newtown Joe said:


> Pretty good price but now I'll have "made in China" all around my layout


WOW, they should call these "track lifesavers". First they literally go on with a snap. I then pinched the joiners to assure good contact. What a difference! They hold the track sections tightly together. The train runs evenly and will not stop even at slow speeds. It's like a new running train, the way it's supposed too.

I highly recommend these clips for any track setup not screwed down. They really work.


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## Howard1975

Newtown Joe said:


> WOW, they should call these "track lifesavers". First they literally go on with a snap. I then pinched the joiners to assure good contact. What a difference! They hold the track section tightly together. The train runs evenly and will not stop even at slow speeds. It's like a new running train, the way it's supposed too.
> 
> I highly recommend these clips for any track setup not screwed down. They really work.


That's very good news to hear, the track clips are working for you.


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## rkenney

I thought you were going to post pictures of the clips in use?

Pictures of the box they came in (2) are not very helpful or informative.


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## Newtown Joe

*Clips in use?*



rkenney said:


> I thought you were going to post pictures of the clips in use?
> 
> Pictures of the box they came in (2) are not very helpful or informative.




I'm not sure what you mean by "pictures of the clips in use". :dunno:
They snap on under the track and that's about it. If you want a pic of how they look when applied, I can do that.


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## Big Ed

rkenney said:


> I thought you were going to post pictures of the clips in use?
> 
> Pictures of the box they came in (2) are not very helpful or informative.


See, they work. :cheeky4:



Newtown Joe said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "pictures of the clips in use". :dunno:
> They snap on under the track and that's about it. If you want a pic of how they look when applied, I can do that.


He wants a picture of the track with the clips. Me too.


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## Newtown Joe

*Pictures of track with clip*



big ed said:


> See, they work. :cheeky4:
> 
> 
> 
> He wants a picture of the track with the clips. Me too.


I hope this does it.


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## fcwilt

It's been years and years but somehow they don't look like they are on right.

It doesn't look like both "ties" are being grabbed by the clip but it might just be the photos.


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## Newtown Joe

fcwilt said:


> It's been years and years but somehow they don't look like they are on right.
> 
> It doesn't look like both "ties" are being grabbed by the clip but it might just be the photos.


They snap into place and you can't pull the sections apart so I guess that's correct.

It's made an enormous difference in how the train runs and since it can now pull a load without stopping the loco is smoking better than ever.


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## rkenney

Well that's why I was interested in seeing a picture.

From what I see it doesn't look like it is installed correctly. It may supply some tension to the rails that aids in keeping it together. That is exactly what Servoguy's method does without the clip, but it does not look like it secures the two track ties together.










The right edge of the clip in this photo looks like it should cover the left edge of the tie for the right hand track, positively locking the two together.hwell:


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## Newtown Joe

*I'll take a closer look*



rkenney said:


> Well that's why I was interested in seeing a picture.
> 
> From what I see it doesn't look like it is installed correctly. It may supply some tension to the rails that aids in keeping it together. That is exactly what Servoguy's method does without the clip, but it does not look like it secures the two track ties together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The right edge of the clip in this photo looks like it should cover the left edge of the tie for the right hand track, positively locking the two together.hwell:


OK, I'll play with some extra track to see if can go a more secure way, but they do snap on which told me they are tight. I already applied them to the exisitng layout track and they seem to be working enough to solve my original problem, but I'll see if it can be even better.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I believe the right edge of the clip should indeed be under the tie, the whole clip is slid over a bit. It's been a long time since I had any of these too, I sold all the track clips I had some time back.


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## fcwilt

I think that if you align the clip so that the "ears" are centered on the one tie you will find that the up turned "lip" of the clip will end up inside the hollow space on the underside of other tie.

But I'm going back 50+ years so it could just be faulty memory.


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## Newtown Joe

*Track Clips*



fcwilt said:


> I think that if you align the clip so that the "ears" are centered on the one tie you will find that the up turned "lip" of the clip will end up inside the hollow space on the underside of other tie.QUOTE]
> 
> So, are you saying this is the correct application? If the "lip" is in the "hollow space" wouln't that be loose.
> 
> The way I did it the "ears" hold on to one tie and the lip snaps on to the tie on the other piece of track. I can't imagine how else this would go.


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## fcwilt

Newtown Joe said:


> The way I did it the "ears" hold on to one tie and the lip snaps on to the tie on the other piece of track. I can't imagine how else this would go.


In the photos it looks like the turned up "lip" of clip is pressing up against the bottom of the rails but it doesn't look like it is "grabbing" the other tie in any way.

Perhaps the way you did it on your layout is not the way you did if for the photos?


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## Newtown Joe

fcwilt said:


> Perhaps the way you did it on your layout is not the way you did if for the photos?


I think you may be right. I'll look more carefully at it tonight. Now that I think about it sometimes it seemed to snap on and other times it was looser. 

They didn't come with any instructions so I just did a quick application. 
I need to put more deligence into this. 

Thanks for the observation.


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## Newtown Joe

*I think I got it!*


OK, here's some pics that I think show the correct application of these clips.
What I realized was that the ties will slide and may be too far out or in to line up with the clip ears and tab. So you need to be sure both ties are in the right position for the clip to grab. 

Now this will prevent the track from separating by the weight of the train passing but they may not necessarily be tight. It helps to then pinch the pins to keep them from sliding. The clip alone does not make for a non-moving join. They seem to allow for some play. Some times the ties move or you may not have a close join of the track sections because the pin holes need to be widened. All of these factors effect how tightly the clips fit.


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## fcwilt

That looks like I remember! :smilie_daumenpos:

The pins need to be snug to insure good electrical contact.

The clips simply prevent the two pieces of track from separating.


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## jimtone

Thanks newtown joe for posting the photos in your #58 post, that makes perfect sense! I wonder if these clips work on both Lionel and Marx 027 track?


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## Newtown Joe

jimtone said:


> Thanks newtown joe for posting the photos in your #58 post, that makes perfect sense! I wonder if these clips work on both Lionel and Marx 027 track?


Sorry, I don't know much about MARX but they are lifesaver on my 027 Lionel.


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## jimtone

I wrote to a seller on Ebay that says it will work on both!


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## Newtown Joe

jimtone said:


> I wrote to a seller on Ebay that says it will work on both!



Good news, they're worth every penny. My layout is on a vinyl floor and these really keep the track tight together and they just snap on easily.


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## tr1

*to under stand currentflow try google?may be first thing then tech school*

amps is a unit of measure of current flow.more amps you need thicker wire.
I asks the questions because I run two trains at once, one inside the other. The inside train slows as it approaches just before the lockon then at some point takes off at high speed. If I increase the speed it starts going faster and faster (too fast) and doesn't stop by the lockon.
I can't get an even speed and need to constantly adjust the current flow at the transformer.
Because it slows as it approaches the lockon it seems to mean the current is flowing clockwise and diminishes as it gets further from the transformer lockon.

Also, I have one transformer that runs both trains and I noticed that they effect each other.
When one draws more current the other slows.

I know you can add a lockon further down the track and I will try that soon, but I'd like to better understand how the current makes it all work. Any knowledge transfer from those who understand this would be appreciated.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


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## tr1

*Addional thoughts on current flow(Amperage)*

Current flow is a unit of measure in electricity which is called amperage. It's similar to water pressure in a water pipe. Voltage is the force applied to the current(water pressure
in a water pipe. That's all I have for now. Interesting subject of electricity. OHMS law is an algebraic equation where with two variables one is able to determine the third. variables resistance=R. I= current have to go now and review my notes.I=current V=voltage R= resistance (variables=V,I,R)


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## Newtown Joe

tr1 said:


> Current flow is a unit of measure in electricity which is called amperage. It's similar to water pressure in a water pipe. Voltage is the force applied to the current(water pressure
> in a water pipe. That's all I have for now. Interesting subject of electricity. OHMS law is an algebraic equation where with two variables one is able to determine the third. variables resistance=R. I= current have to go now and review my notes.I=current V=voltage R= resistance (variables=V,I,R)


OKaaay :dunno:


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## fcwilt

Newtown Joe said:


> OKaaay :dunno:


It's really pretty simple.

Start by looking up Ohm's law (V = I * R and it's variations).

Then you might want to look up series and parallel resistance and how the values combine.

And don't worry about the plumbing analogies.


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## Newtown Joe

fcwilt said:


> It's really pretty simple.
> 
> Start by looking up Ohm's law (V = I * R and it's variations).
> 
> Then you might want to look up series and parallel resistance and how the values combine.
> 
> And don't worry about the plumbing analogies.


I'm retired. My brain doesn't work well anymore.


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## DonR

Tr1

If you have a train that, on a flat layout, varies in speed as it goes
around the layout, you have an electrical conductivity problem. Likely,
the pins connecting the track sections are loose or have corrosion
or 'stuff' blocking good current flow.

You might be able to trace that with a Multimeter set to AC volts
and without varying the transformer speed control test the voltage
on both sides of every joint between track sections. Where you
see a drop in voltage you'll find the pins not making good contact.

Yes, One train will cause a second train to run slower with a
given transformer speed setting. If the speed difference is
not substantial just increase the speed setting on the transformer.

If it is substantial, you need a more powerful transformer.

Don


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## gunrunnerjohn

Without speed control, going around curves will slow the consist down, simply because of the greater friction making the turn.


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## jimtone

I ordered the Lionel track clips and they don't work on the 027 gauge Marx tracks because the ties are farther apart than the Lionel tracks. It is not possible to connect the clips onto the end ties like the photos shown in post #58 on the lionel tracks. Does anyone have any info about clips for Marx 027 tracks? The ties are 1 inch apart from the closest points and 2 inches on the outside or the farther side of the ties.


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## DonR

I had a Marx 027 layout as a teenager and my jury rig way of
connecting wires to the track without the right track clip was
to shove wire into the tube and push the pin into that. Not
really nice, but it kept the trains running.

Don


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## T-Man

I had to read it twice, the track clips are track joiners not the wire tie in CTC connector. I like screwing track down to the table if that can't be done a simple elastic or even a bread tie wrap.


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## jimtone

The bread tie is something I'm going to try. Thanks.


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