# wire size



## Rocky Mountian

Lionel train 190 wat transformer what size wire should I use and is it different for signal lights , crossing gates also what is a OTC lock on verses CTC ??


----------



## T-Man

18 gage is ideal for track but I use any wire. I collect speaker, phone, and rheostat wire. The phone is for LED wiring. For motors, andsome accessories and cars I use 20 and 22 gage stranded. The OTC is the fourth rail insert for the uncoupling shoe. With luck I had one in a junk box. Actually two.


----------



## Rocky Mountian

Thanks T-Man , This is what I had here at my dad's 12 I will get the right stuff thanks again


----------



## greg

Would rather not disagree but... 
For a 190 watt transformer I would use 14 gauge and 16-18 for the drops if you are wiring blocks or feeders.


----------



## Rocky Mountian

Maybe I don't know but some of the of it has tinny wires like the crossing gate and it tries to work but won't pull all the way down I have the OEM manual but I couldn't find wire size so I thought I'd ask

Thank for your advice

Mike


----------



## greg

My advice was just for the track to transformer wiring. Dont want you to think you need that size for the other stuff.
Accessories are cool with the smaller diameter wire, no problem. 

Reason I advise the thicker wire for track to transformer is just for safety. I have fried the plastic off the Lionel green wire that they include to hook up smaller transformers to the tracks. Can happen with a derailment!


----------



## T-Man

Operators with the beefy transformers use commercial low voltage circuit breakers. Leave the frying in the kitchen. Something to keep in mind next time you visit an electrical supply store.


----------



## greg

Very slow resettable circuit breakers as would be the case with an old transformer. The OP did not state which transformer only the wattage.
Feel free to wire the tracks and layout with any wire you desire. 
I stand by my comment that 14 gauge wire with 16-18 gauge drops for O scale is an accepted standard for layout builders. Regardless of how many layouts we have both wired with the thinner stuff.


----------



## Big Ed

I use 14 gauge from the transformer to the track. 
For a small layout I would think 16 or 18 is fine.

I had a roll of 14 that's the main reason I used it.


----------



## servoguy

I recommend 14 gauge wire for a 190 watt KW transformer for two reasons: 1.) The circuit breaker in a KW is rather slow to react. I checked one of them recently, and when I shorted the out puts, the transformer just grunts and the current goes to more than 12 amps. My meter is only good to 12 amps, so I don't know how high the current goes. It is probably 18 amps peak as the output resistance is 1 ohm (measured), and the open circuit output voltage is more than 18 volts which would give a peak of 18+ amps. It takes the circuit breaker a few seconds to trip, and so any small wire is going to fry before the circuit breaker trips. There is only one breaker for all the circuits. It is to protect the transformer, not the layout. Any small gauge wire should be protected by circuit breakers that are sized to protect the wire. There is a good table of amperage rating for wire here: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html, and 2.) You want to minimize the voltage drop in the wire, and 14 gauge is a good compromise. A one volt drop in the wiring and/or track will cause some engines to slow down appreciably, particularly if they are running slow.


----------



## Rocky Mountian

It's a lionel kw 190 and thanks this will help alot.


----------



## tjcruiser

Servoguy,

Good info and logic in your post there ... thanks for a clear description.

TJ


----------



## T-Man

I appreciate the post too!

Currently, ha, I am running a smaller table with no power outage greater than 110 watts. After reviewing the thread, 14 gage wins the vote and allows for operation of the larger transformers.


----------



## servoguy

IMHO, the KW is the bargain transformer. The last 3 I have bought I paid around $35 each for them. I had to put cords on them, and one needed rollers, but that is cheap power. I put diodes in them to replace the copper oxide rectifiers because the copper oxide rectifiers were not working. I used a 5 amp silicon diode and it works just fine. I used extension cords I bought at Home Depot for $1 and cut off the end I didn't need. These cords have a polarized plug so I polarized all the transformers the same. I bought some smaller transformers recently for $5 each. These were 75 or 90 watt transformers. Once again, power cords were required.


----------



## tjcruiser

Servoguy,

First and foremost, a big welcome to the forum. You seem to have some depth of experience and knowledge. How about a quick introduction / bio on your part ... either here, or in the "Welcome new members" thread. What gives?!?

And pics, too ... we wanna see pics of your stuff!

TJ


----------



## servoguy

Who do I complain to about the way this web site works? I am logged in, and just wrote a long post and the web site threw it away and told me I am not logged in. When I logged in, the post was gone. Naturally, I forgot to save it before I tried to post it. GRRRRRRR
Bruce Baker


----------



## tjcruiser

Servo,

OHH NO! You're a victim of Premature Forum Logut, just like I was ... see here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3169&highlight=premature

I think the simple solution (going forward) is to make sure you check the "remember me" box just under your password entry when you login.

Bummer ... hope it doesn't happen again. (I feel your pain ... been there, done that!)

TJ


----------



## servoguy

I have been playing with trains off and on since 1950 when I got my first Lionel train. I was 9. I have been fixing my own trains since I was a kid since I grew up in Emporia, Kansas, and the nearest repair station was in Kansas City. It might have well been on the moon. I sold most of the trains when I was 14 and got interested in cars. I kept a 2025 2-6-2 which I still have. The bug bit again in 1975 when I bought some more stuff. Off and on for the next several years, I put a layout on the floor. In 1998, the bug almost died. Then about 1.5 years ago, the bug bit again. I had a place to set the trains up and I started buying stuff at swap meets. I ended up with a good sized floor layout with 50 022 switches. The switches are wired together in pairs so that the train operates the switches. I wrote a long post on another forum (www.trains.com) about how to fix 022 switches. I think the name of it is "022/711 switch operating pblms." I think I found every problem an 022 switch can have. I also wrote a post on cutting down the 022 switches to make them smaller. This allows yards and sidings to have the tracks closer together. I was very pleased how this turned out.
I am an electrical engineer with an MSEE and 47 years of experience. That helps a lot with the electrical part of things. I am a natural mechanical engineer, so fixing mechanical things is not a problem. So far, I have never built a "permanent" layout with scenery, but that may occur in the near future. I have never been too interested in the scenery part of model railroading, and prefer to think of myself as a person who enjoys playing with toy trains. I am an operator, not a collector, although I do have a few collectible pieces. The collectible pieces are probably going to get run in the near future.

Bruce Baker


----------



## tjcruiser

Bruce,

Excellent stuff! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

You and T-Man are gonna have "long conversations and walks along the beach" talking about 022 switch repair!

Great to have you onboard ... maybe post some pics of your setup in its own thread at some point?

TJ


----------



## servoguy

After I did all the things to the 022 switches that I listed in the post, the switches became nearly bullet proof. They would operate for 2-3 hours or more without a glitch. I had 40 of them wired in pairs so that when the train operated one of the switches (using the non-derail feature), another switch on the layout would also operate so the train would take a new path. It took 22 minutes for the train to go over the whole layout before the pattern repeated. Here is a copy of an old Lionel manual that shows you how to wire the switches: http://www.thortrains.net/manualx.htm. This shows 2 switches, and I had 40, so you may have to do some learning. I know I did. I have almost 100 022 switches, so if I get more space I could really make an interesting layout. 

I am buying 022 switches for $7.50 each complete with controller and lantern and power plug. And no, they are not "new in the box" condition. But I have never bought one that I couldn't get working. They cost $11 in 1950, so this is really cheap. IMHO, they are a first class design, and with a little rework, they should last forever. 

Bruce Baker


----------



## servoguy

How do I post pictures? I have a few pictures of the layout before I took it apart.
Bruce Baker


----------



## tjcruiser

Re: photos ...

Couple of options, each entailing using the "Go Advanced" button at the bottom of the thread page ...

1. Use the paper clip icon to browse to "manage attachments" ... a little dialog box will let you upload your photo files (jpg, for example). We'll see not the photos directly in the thread, but rather a little icon for each photo that we can click on to see the photo in a new box.

2. An extra step to imbed each photo directly in the thread ... After uploading the photos per above, click on the icon to see each photo in it's own box. "Ctrl-C" the url path of the photo. Then, back in the Advanced editor, click on the little "mountain" icon" insert an image, then "Ctrl-V" to paste your photo URL, which will get preceeded and followed by







, respectively. With this, we'll see the photo directly.

Bit of a "Twister" process, but you'll get the hang of it.

If your photos are already existant on a 'net site, you can jump to step 2 and go the URL route directly.

Cheers,

TJ


----------

