# 259e new life



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I haven't had a project in a while and was long overdue. I found this needy 259e on the bay for a few beads and trinkets. Needless to say it needed help. Maybe more then I can give but I had to give it a try. 








































As you can see the 259e was well loved by its previous owner. The front and rear ends are bent up pretty good. The cow catcher is bent all the way in and the pilot and trailing wheels look like they went two rounds with the hulk. Inspired by tj and T-man I'm giving this project the green light. I have an idea of what I want to do with it. Highly unconventional but hopefully will end up very cool looking.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Good grief!

It looks like it fell off the back of a truck and spent some time in traffic.

Those locos are cool when in their proper shape.

Keep us tuned in on the progress.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yea Dave, you pretty much summed it up there. I took it apart and will begin the tedious process of trying to bend it back into some sort of working shape. For anyone who wants to rehab one of these there are lots and lots of tabs. I thought I hated taking some of the older accessories apart, the 259e takes tabs to a whole new level. I can only hope they don't break. I've never seen so many bleeping tabs. Pictures coming soon.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Got your work cut out for you that's for sure. Those can be the most rewarding though, no doubt it'll turn out fine. 

Carl


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you do break a tab, just drill a hole and run wire through a few times then solder it.

You may need another one just to look at what it is suppose to be like.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks Kwikster, I need reassuring. And T-man thanks for the advice. I have a new respect for tinplate. I've done boxcars, etc, before but this is an entirely different animal. I've managed to bang out most of the dings and dents. I need some new parts, a wheel and the drive rods. But so far so good. Pictures in a moment, forgot I have to switch to chrome on my phone.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The strip down, I used easy off to take off the paint. Before that I beat and bent the engine back into some usable shape. If you ask what tools I used, I would say everything and anything I could find. Vises, ball peen hammer, tack hammer, any and all pliers, rubber mallets, etc . It was an epic battle, there was no clear cut winner. I did get the upper hand in the end. I'm pretty happy, but there is a lot more to do.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

When you reassemble, if you don't want to risk breaking tabs, just slide a piece of heat shrink tubing onto the tab after sliding it through the slot, and shrink the tube. If you ever have to disassemble again in the future, no sweat, just cut off the tube. You can disassemble and reassemble as many times as you want.

Looks like you're well on your way, and maybe I don't get a vote, but I think you won that battle pretty clearly.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Dave Farquhar, great idea. I might try it out where I can. Some of the tabs have to be bent in to accommodate the next peice. I will definitely try it on tenders etc. 
Next step evaporust. I submerged the parts. Most of the rust lines came off. The evaporust left a bit of discoloration on the metal. But a scotch brite took care of that. My next problem is a small break on the rear of the cab. I'm going to use a play from T-mans book. Epoxy. I'm thinking with a small nail or something as a reinforcement.























As you can see the evaporust took care of the rust lines that were under the paint. The straightening of the cab, while better isn't perfect. You can still see some ruts in the metal. I'll try some bondo on it. Many thanks to the tin plate kings whose threads were invaluable for ideas etc. I think its coming along nicely, not perfect, but good enough for me.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Might be worth a trip to harbor freight for some cheap body hammers and dollys. They will enable you to smooth out more areas, I have a few from my days of flipping cars. Once you apply and sand bondo, cover it with buildable primer then sand. A very light coat of black before sanding with highlight highs and lows, and old painters tip.

Carl


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When you put the tenders back together, don't bend any of the tabs. Twist two of them (or the minimum to hold it together) slightly. This will keep them from breaking off.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Kwikster, I should have doe that first. It might be a little to late. Servoguy, I've done that on accessories and such, when I learned of it. Some of these tabs don't lend themselves to that application. I will try it or the shrink wrap, as it is perhaps easier then completely bending them over. More pictures to come later.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

It's not too late for the body hammer/dollies. That would be after paint it on. The tools you need are actually necessary for final work, the ones you used are for "roughing". Careful use of them will reduce filler needs.

Carl


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so it's painted, sort of. A






































while back I wanted a chromed pre war engine. So I thought why not try a cheapo version. This one's for big ed. I used a chrome paint. I ran into problems immediately. First the paint would not cover smoothly. It was sort of bumpy. I sanded and second coated. It still looked like a sandpaper finish. I did multiple quick, light coats to no avail. Next, against my better judgment, I hit it full blast with a thick coat of paint. It was better. My usual trick of letting the paint cure in my oven at a low temperature also did not work. The paint became pliable and did not dry well. This chrome paint is harder then it seams. I will let the parts dry for a few days and make a reassessment of the situation. I might be in for another paint stripping. Pictures, it doesn't look bad, but I hope the paint cures.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

The key with chrome paint is build slowly over several layers, LIGHT coats. Allow to cure properly. After curing a wet sand with some very fine, read 2000 grit or finer, followed by a gentle polishing. Applying too thick a coat will only slow drying, even in an oven and can cause issues later, as the inner layers may not cure at all, especially with chrome paint. Chrome paint is a lot like black, it'll highlight flaws.

Carl


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I know, I just wasn't getting the right results. I'm letting it dry for a bit. Somethings I'm just not good at. Painting trains is one of them. I did follow the instructions, even heated the metal up a bit. Primed, wet sanded, applied small fast even coats at first. Inexperience, impatience, old paint? Maybe a bit of each. I can always strip it down!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think that some spray on gloss black before they shoot the chrome on?
I think I read that somewhere.

Looks great compared to what you started with. :thumbsup:

Try sanding after it drys real good, then give it another coat?
Like mentioned give her real light coats let it dry then give it another light coat.
More light coats are better then a couple heavy coats.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nope I was wrong about the using gloss black first.
That was for a different process.
That was for using one of the chrome plating products.

I might have posted this before? Though they did not use gloss black first, I saw that in another thread on a different site using a similar spray. I can't find it now.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Nice job on the 259E.

I have a serious soft spot for those engines. I have one with a half way decent shell, but it is missing front and rear trucks, and I believe that the main drive axles that run through the motor are bent. 

In fact, I almost bid on the engine you are working on, if that was the same one listed a few weeks ago.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

That would be the one. It does look better, thanks for the encouragement. I'm still letting the paint dry . I'll check it in a few more days. They are kind of cool.... Lots of parts to put together. Amazing how they thought of these designs back in the day.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I am happy to hear that you are putting it back together in running condition. I would have robbed the parts that I needed for my 259E.

Are you a prewar guy? By the looks of your quality of work, I can tell this isn't your first restoration.

BTW, thank you for sharing about your resto. I've often wondered if it was possible to save and fix the steel bodies of prewar trains.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I've fixed up some stuff. Not as much as others here. What I learned is that if you have the time, and money, anything can be fixed. T-man and tj have lots of threads on tinplate restorations. I've got some prewar stuff, and some Postwar stuff. I mostly buy junk and try and fix it up. If you click on the user names you can get to past threads they started. I've got a few there. Btw, my stuff is not even close to what some of these guys do. It's still fun fixing stuff and getting it to run, especially when that stuff is 60+ years old. When I'm in over my head the members here help out a lot.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

You do some nice work, sjm. I'm impressed! 

I am also happy that your 259E lives, and not parted out like I would have done. The world needs more prewar Lionel...not less!

Are you using an airbrush or rattle cans?


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Rattle cans. I'm not too good at it. I did, heat up the can in warm water, heat up the metal, use a sandable primer that was compatible with the paint, some aren't.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You could try to solder a piece of copper on the back side. A little solder paste may help on the metal to stick.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so the paint did dry. I might give it another coat later today. While thinking about it the bad paint job could be from the less then optimal temperature of my basement. I did set up a portable heater by my cardboard painting station but maybe the temperature is still to low. Just something I didn't think out fully. I tested he motor and it did not run just hummed. Maybe a short. I'll see what a good lube and cleaning will do. It is dry.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so I cleaned up the engine. In my hast I forgot to take before pictures. It was dirty, dry, and not working. I oiled everything up, then wiped it all down with alcohol. Next I cleaned the brushes, armature, brush plate and dremaled off some rust. I reapplied oil sparingly to all the moving parts. It still wouldn't move. My first instinct about a short was correct. If you can see by the light bulb socket the soldering was touching the frame. I bent it out a bit with a screwdriver and the engine roared back to life. Who knows how many years this was sitting, not working. The wires, surprisingly enough are good. I was going to rewire it but if it ain't broke don't fix it. I'll insulate the wires by the socket before I reassemble. The next thing I'll work on is the pu rollers. You can see how there bent. I'll see if a little persuasion from a pair of needle nose will fix the problem.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, i repainted and sanded the parts. I also took an old scout tender from the ever growing junk pile under my train table. I let the paint cure on both peices for 5 or so days. The paint looked good and seemed hard. I was so wrong. During reassembly the paint was rubbing off. Not good. So back to step one. Half of the car is reassembled and I might just leave it that way for the repaint. I broke one tab off during the reconstruction. As for the twist method or the shrink tube method, I couldn't use Eaither. This was because the stability of the shell is dependent upon a bend. I'll think on it tonight but I will never use Crome paint again. It's a shame as it was sharp looking.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so this project is dragging out. The first picture looks good and is the look I wanted. But the second picture shows the soft paint. Any pressure applied to the shell leaves finger print ripples. Not what I was going for. From far away it looks great. Up close, not too good. And it isn't the heavy coating I applied. I did a tender also with the same results. I can't wait months for paint to harden. I probably should invest in a spray gun. Any thoughts ti repainting without disassembling the rig. I don't want to break any more tabs and right now I don't have the time to fix it. I'll reiterate, this is dragging out.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

It's going to need some warmth to harden that paint. I used to use a clamp type light with an incandescent heat bulb for that. The paint actually looks a tad thick to me. I'd use the heat lamp route overnight and see what happens before a complete strip down. If you strip it without taking it apart you risk leaving areas of bare metal. 

Carl


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I am sorry you are having problems with the engine. You've been doing great work, and I understand the disappointment and frustration when a project goes south.

My guess is that the problem is the paint, and nothing that you've done. I hang out on a model building forum, and there are tons of threads about silver paint not fully curing. I have experienced the exact same problems with silver paint. It just doesn't cure hard, and can be easily smudged by the heat or pressure of your hands.

Someone on one of those threads explained why silver paints do this, and honestly, I didn't understand a word that they said. There is something chemically different with silver paints that give them the bright silver color (and maybe they are made up of either flake or oxide), but for whatever reason, they don't want to cure.

It was all above my pay grade, so I quit reading after a while.

If you get sick of the project, you can box it up and ship it to Indiana...


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Kwikster, I did lay it on thick, only after a week of light coats, and some time in the oven at about 175-200 degrees. Nothing seamed to work. I thought I had it locked with a heater on it and some insulated walls. The light coats care out sandpaper like, I'll soot some pictures of the tender in the am. Only a thick coat came out smooth. I'm not a great painter but this paint sucks. 
Clovis, I was thinking of sending it out there. Depending on the frustration level it could happen. 

Right now I'm considering a black frame, with a gunmetal shell. I'm waiting a bit because I really want to take the whole thing apart. If I attempt it now the tabs will suffer.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Edited to add the paint is also a bit like tinfoil, it discolored a bit when rubbed. Maybe it should be clear coated? I haven'ta clue.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Silver paints, even on cars, has always been a pita to work with. If it were me, I'd consider the disassembly and restrip route even though it's a pita. I'd do 3-4 light coats, with plenty of cure time preferably under a heat lamp between coats. Followed with a good wetsanding, then I'd shoot 3-4 coats of clear, cure them and wetsand with 1500 (2000 preferred)or finer sand paper to bring out as much shine as possible.

I wonder if you could solder some thin copper strips inside the shell to repair broken tabs. Should be doable with proper cleaning. maybe JB Weld instead. It's a thought, I don't have any tinplate so it's an educated guess.

EDIT: Some paints need more heat to cure, auto plants ovens can range up to 400 degrees depending on type of paint used. Enamel paints tend to take longer, some needing more than a month without baking before sanding them. Yup, I'm thinking again. Dangerous territory 

Carl


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## briangcc (Oct 11, 2012)

What was the air temperature in the room when you painted? Temp of the shell? Temp of the paint?

In a nutshell, aerosols need to be 70 degrees F or better to fully cure. Sometimes you can *cheat* by warming the shell and warming the spray paint in a bath of warm water but in my experience you're asking for trouble if you to it this way.

From the looks of things, the outer most layer is actually dry but the layers beneath it aren't. What's happening is that the gasses in your first few coats can't escape to cure the paint. Probably the best bet right now is to completely strip the engine and apply a single light coat. Let that coat fully cure - to the point where you no longer smell any paint fumes. Then you can apply the next layer. Repeat cure and paint process as necessary to get the engine fully coated.


In warmer temps, you can generally recoat in an hour but when the temp dips below 70, you need to lengthen your cure time between coats.

Air brushes would give you a little more wiggle room on the temps but when you start getting down there in temps, say below 60 degrees, you're going to run into problems even with an air brush.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The first picture is what happens with light coats, it's sandpaper like. The second is the paint being able to be rubbed off. The temperature is about 70. After I spray I bring the stuff in the house to dry. I did try a high heat option too, the paint just ran off the peices. It's a shame because it did look nice. I'll have to re strip and re do. I think I'm going to steer clear of this Crome paint.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

From the looks of things, your paint didn't like the primer. I tend to use paint and primer from the same maker and type of paint. Less risk that way. Hard to tell from this far away 

Carl


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Kwikster, I think you hit the nail on the head. I did use the same brand primer for metallic paints? ! Maybe it was bad? ?? I broke a few more tabs and then decided not to disassemble it further. As I am now re stripping the engine I can see the primer is bubbled and sandpapery. It looks as if the paint reacted with the primer. Eating it away. I just can't win! Maybe the dam thing was happy all bent up or its scared of what the next kid will do to it if it gets fixed.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I tried a re strip with a different paint brand. No luck. It looked more silver then chrome and I had the same drying problems. Granted it was only a few days but I went by the manufacturers instructions. I also noticed my over spray, while dry, rubbed off on my hands when picking up peices of the engine.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Silver may not be your color.


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## ColtsKurt (Jan 28, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Silver may not be your color.


:appl:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, I got it. Color change in progress.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, %/:$. Caned the Crome paint. I re striped and reprimed. I forgot to re due the bondo. So it now has character! I'm on my second coat of paint. I'm waiting a real long time between coats. Then I'll clear coat it. Almost done, it's been months.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

From all I hear, chrome is a very difficult paint to work with. I bought a can and did a test spray, didn't come out very good, so I decided against every trying to use it on anything.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It's bad, I did an Ok job coating it. But the cure time was horrible. It might have been the heavy coat but the light coats, like you said came out horrible. Part of the problem was coating in peices. A single frame train would have (maybe) been dry to the touch and easier to assemble. The old tin plate withe the tabs needs to be manipulated in order to fit the tabs in(especially when painted). This leads to pressure from your hands pressing into the dry to touch but not cured paint. Not fun. I tryed it but never again.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> The old tin plate withe the tabs needs to be manipulated in order to fit the tabs in(especially when painted). This leads to pressure from your hands pressing into the dry to touch but not cured paint. Not fun. I tryed it but never again.


Then that is part of your problem as stated in red above.
Wait longer.:smokin:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think Ed's right, you probably have to paint it and then stick it on the shelf for a couple of weeks for a full cure.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

At this point, it probably would have been cheaper (and quicker) to send it out to the platers, and, have it properly chrome plated..........


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

BWA said:


> At this point, it probably would have been cheaper (and quicker) to send it out to the platers, and, have it properly chrome plated..........


That gets expensive, I did a little searching for chroming my Flying Yankee passenger cars.

I am going to do something about, but am waiting for warmer weather to do it.

My 616,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=22298


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

BWA said:


> At this point, it probably would have been cheaper (and quicker) to send it out to the platers, and, have it properly chrome plated..........


Your probably right, but where's the fun in that!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

All right , not perfect but much better then before. Ill assemble it this week, I'm debating on some new parts.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

awesome job. what a transformation


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Looks 110% better than the first pics. I guess "red" is more your color :laugh:

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Obviously, you've hit on your color, MUCH nicer.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You painted the bell! 

Looks good, it needs some yellow flames on it. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

SJM,

After a long hiatus, I'm just catching my breath to have a moment to poke back on here to the forum. My first have-a-read thread: your 259, and tales of woe with the chrome paint. I've had many backwards steps along my project paths. Hang in there ... the trains will love you for it in the end.

And ...

I happen to LOVE the flip to the red/black color scheme! Looks great! Do keep the gang posted with updates.

TJ


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Holy cow the Tinman lives,  Long time no see TJ. Hope all is well.

Carl


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj, glad to here from ya! Thanks for the encouragement. Hope all is well! (including the family). 

Ed, originally it was supposed to be chrome, I forgot about it. Just like on the last repaint I forgot to bondo the back. Oh well. A dremal might fix it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, a little more progress. I put the shell together today and the project is near completion. The shell had to be coaxed back together. Every twist, turn and push brought squeaky groans from the frame. A little bending here, a little pushing there. And it finally went together. I broke a few tabs along the way and need to epoxy a few spots. On the top I forgot to bondo and smooth out the rear . I'm still happy with it. I used a plumber's putty, epoxy based for the broken cab. I reinforced it with a peice of a nail. The Crack on the outside was also an oversite. I forgot to fill it in my ongoing saga. As ed noticed I did forget to fix the bell. I'll dremal off the paint when I get the chance. I'm going to place an order with the train tender to see if he has the crossbars. So far it's all original. The hardest part was getting the Cooper domes on. They are very soft and easy to bend out of shape.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The bell can be red, I was only kidding.
Hand paint it?

Hand paint the screw in front red?

What crack? In the next to last picture?

I think it looks good.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A dremel wire brush will clean the bell up and shine.

 That is a gloss red, for sure.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Looks great!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Love the red, good color choice!


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## briangcc (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok admit it...you secretly tossed the engine from the first pic and just repainted a replacement shell. (j/k)

Great work!!


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## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

Awesome! Really come a long way!
Don't sweat it if there's still a few bumps and wrinkles. Even after a makeover, NOBODY over 70 years old looks like new!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks everybody, I had an old scout tender and some rusted up trucks, so along the way I painted it to go with the engine. I'll wait to see in I aquire the correct one but in a pinch this will do. Up close you can see where the rust pitted the metal but from a distance it's a Ok. The pre war coupler needs that metal part, anyone know what's it called or if I can even get it? Otherwise I'll go digging in my junk!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jeff at the Train Tender for prewar coupler parts.

Go to his website ... www.ttender.com

Then, use link to go to Parts Photos.

From there, click on the Plus (+) next to the Couplers folder on the left menu, and then, click on the Online Pictures after that.

Once there, click on:

Box Coupler Parts.jpg
CP-2-hoods-100.jpg
CP-2G hood .jpg

(I may have a typo or two, but you should find your way.)

TJ


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks tj, the tt has the part. I never look at the parts by pictures on the site before.


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## silver69 (Dec 20, 2013)

really nice work, let's see the engine and tender together.
love the red!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

SJM ... something to consider for future work ...

Give the dry-transfer letters / numbers a shot. They give a really crisp look without the clear film. Woodland Scenics offers several fonts, colors.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj, I know. But I cheaped out! I'll try the dry transfers one day. I had them as a kid and still have bad memory's of trying to get a number on a model car. I think that's why I haven't tryed them again.


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## sneaker3d (Jan 12, 2012)

Hello

Thank for send me link to find your 259E project here and I can see you had tough time processing to redo paint job and I like your two tone colors look great !!! Good job !!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I just had to reread this thread. It is obvious that painting does not always go as planned. I seldom have just a first take. There are sometimes you just can't save it and do a total makeover. I now can relate that the object is just no completing the task but the journey makes all the difference. Sort of a play on the Frost Poem, The Road not Taken


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> I just had to reread this thread. It is obvious that painting does not always go as planned. I seldom have just a first take. There are sometimes you just can't save it and do a total makeover. I now can relate that the object is just no completing the task but the journey makes all the difference. Sort of a play on the Frost Poem, The Road not Taken


T Man the philosopher?

You have been down the crinkle paint job before, I seem to remember a bad reaction on one of your repaints?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

O Yeah! I have gloss paints in spray cans to be difficult. The results are often pleasing but always perfect either. The flat paints are so much easier to spray.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Alls well that ends well that one wasn't ment to be. I did pick up another 259e with the intentions of trying out the chrome plate kit I got, its not chrome exactly but a brush on shiny nickel kit thing. Unfortunately, the 259e proved to be in much better condition then I thought. It was only dirty and dusty, after a dusting it was almost perfect. So, I cant paint that. Eventually I will find a candidate to chrome.....


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## steam chaser (Feb 21, 2011)

Very nice,great looking job.Really looks nice.


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