# Help Understanding Smoke Unit



## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

I recently purchase my first real loco, a Penn Flyer set. The smoke unit didn't work at all and I'm sending it back. 

This past week I picked up LionChief Plus Denver & Rio Grand RS-3 and I like it. The smoke unit works but not I'm not certain it works the way it should. But it could be newbie error.

How long should the 4 drops last? I almost always have to blow down the stack to get it started and it smokes while sitting idle although it is real hard to see. Once I put it in motion I can't really tell at all if it is smoking until I stop it and even then it seems to need more drops.

If I leave it overnight should I put 4 new drops in there again? Do they dry out? 

So far, I can get it to smoke but it's kinda hard to see and doesn't seem to work very long.

Can I ruin it by adding too much (let's say a dozen drops)?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The LC+ has a fan driven smoke unit, you need more than four drops for those. Try 7 or 8 drops. The smoke production does slow down at idle, that's the way they're designed. You can create a mess if you get carried away with the smoke fluid, so don't get carried away.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The LC+ has a fan driven smoke unit, you need more than four drops for those. Try 7 or 8 drops. The smoke production does slow down at idle, that's the way they're designed. You can create a mess if you get carried away with the smoke fluid, so don't get carried away.


It seems to smoke best at idle. When it moves it is hard to tell it's smoking at all.

So if I put in 8 drops, how long should that last if I keep it running? I have no experience to know what to expect. Ball park will be fine. Seems like after 1 small loop I need to put in more.

Also, are there better dropper bottles to use. The Lionel bottles are hard to squeeze. Anyone find a good dropped bottle to move the fluid into?


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## cjack (Jan 28, 2010)

Hank Rearden said:


> It seems to smoke best at idle. When it moves it is hard to tell it's smoking at all.
> 
> So if I put in 8 drops, how long should that last if I keep it running? I have no experience to know what to expect. Ball park will be fine. Seems like after 1 small loop I need to put in more.
> 
> Also, are there better dropper bottles to use. The Lionel bottles are hard to squeeze. Anyone find a good dropped bottle to move the fluid into?


I use a small syringe...you can get them at a farm store.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Hank, I don't think anyone can understand these darn Lionel smoke units. They're finicky at best and I agree if you add too much fluid and you make a real mess. Too little fluid and you end up burning the wicking in the smoke unit. What I've learned is you have to play with each one and it can be a little trial by fire.

If you play with these toys long enough you get real good at opening up locomotives and doing your own maintenance.

Good Luck!!


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

did you prime the smoke unit prior to first operation? usually calls for 20 drops or so


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

4 drops after sitting overnight isn't even enough to get it damp. 

How many drops does the manual say for adding smoke fluid?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Also, maybe try some Mega smoke instead of the Lionel smoke?
Maybe you got a bad bottle of smoke fluid?


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I found the manual online, 4 drops...

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/73-0089-250.pdf


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

njoffroader said:


> did you prime the smoke unit prior to first operation? usually calls for 20 drops or so


This would actually make sense but I don't think this is written anywhere. Perhaps I missed it. Everything says to add 4 drops and that's it. I just reread the manual for my diesel and it says nothing about priming it. In fact is says the smoke will be light at rest and increase in motion. Mine is the opposite and I can only see smoke while it is stationary.

I will add a few more drops and hope for the best.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

If you look at the parts diagram for that engine, the smoke unit is a whole different animal than a typical Legacy smoke unit. The maual says to add 4 drops. So if you have added 8 or 12 drops, it should smoke pretty good. It may take a couple minutes to heat up, but should smoke good. You should also be able to hear the fan motor when you turn it on and off.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Laidoffsick said:


> If you look at the parts diagram for that engine, the smoke unit is a whole different animal than a typical Legacy smoke unit. The maual says to add 4 drops. So if you have added 8 or 12 drops, it should smoke pretty good. It may take a couple minutes to heat up, but should smoke good. You should also be able to hear the fan motor when you turn it on and off.


You most definitely can hear the fan motor. I will give it a go right now.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

I wonder if it isn't the smoke fluid. The manual says to use Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid 6-37841. What came with the engine is just Smoke Fluid 6-02920. Could this be my problem?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> Also, maybe try some Mega smoke instead of the Lionel smoke?
> Maybe you got a bad bottle of smoke fluid?





Hank Rearden said:


> I wonder if it isn't the smoke fluid. The manual says to use Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid 6-37841. What came with the engine is just Smoke Fluid 6-02920. Could this be my problem?



FROM THE EXPERT’S DESK: PROFESSOR MIKE REAGAN DISHES ON SMOKE UNITS.
http://tracks.lionel.com/from-the-experts-desk-professor-mike-reagan-dishes-on-smoke-units/


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

big ed said:


> FROM THE EXPERT’S DESK: PROFESSOR MIKE REAGAN DISHES ON SMOKE UNITS.
> http://tracks.lionel.com/from-the-experts-desk-professor-mike-reagan-dishes-on-smoke-units/


That article makes me think maybe mine isn't working as it should. I have a LC+ loco and it only smokes sporadically.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hank Rearden said:


> That article makes me think maybe mine isn't working as it should. I have a LC+ loco and it only smokes sporadically.


You didn't mention if these are brand new or used? Did you? I am guessing they are new?

I don't know much about the new smoke units. But I remember someone saying there is a hole to keep clean? A small hole that you need to open up with a small pin to keep it smoking right?
Someone who knows these better might explain this?

Most of my locomotives are Postwar, I just pop a pill in and they smoke. I tried fluid like some say will work in the pill burning unit but I like using the pills.

I don't know how big your table, and I guess you have tried this, but have you tried running it the around to get it heated up good? Put some cars behind it so it gets a good workout.
I do remember posting once about the pre-priming for the newer units. I read the same thing about 20 drops when you first go to use it, then less after that.
But the experts shot that down somehow, I think the 20 drops only pertained to certain locomotives.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have the LC+ Camelback, and it smokes pretty well. Note that the LC+ steamers turn off the heater when they are stopped, and I believe the LC+ diesels lower the heat or turn it off, I don't have one of those to check. The LC (not +) puffer on the Polar Express I'm tinkering with does a fair job when running down the tracks, and it also turns off the smoke resistor power when the locomotive stops.


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## cjack (Jan 28, 2010)

big ed said:


> Also, maybe try some Mega smoke instead of the Lionel smoke?
> Maybe you got a bad bottle of smoke fluid?


Mike Regan (Lionel) recently said Mega Steam leaves the smoke unit with sticky residue. I don't know if it's just the hot chocolate scent or includes the sugar free scents 😀.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That would be Mike Reagan, right? 

As far as his statements, I suspect that's more Lionel management talking, you wouldn't expect him to promote a competitive product, would you?

FWIW, I get to work on a LOT of smoke units, and I see no evidence of Mike's comments actually having any credence.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

So far I've had 2 locos. The first smoke unit won't work at all and is going back. The one that works a little bit came with a bottle of fluid that has a part # that doesn't match the required one in the manual! Ugh!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hank Rearden said:


> So far I've had 2 locos. The first smoke unit won't work at all and is going back. The one that works a little bit came with a bottle of fluid that has a part # that doesn't match the required one in the manual! Ugh!


Stupid question but I have seen this be the cause before, so I got to ask.

On the one that doesn't work at all, are you sure there is not a switch for it to turn on and off?


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

big ed said:


> Stupid question but I have seen this be the cause before, so I got to ask.
> 
> On the one that doesn't work at all, are you sure there is not a switch for it to turn on and off?


There is indeed a switch. I doesn't work in either the on or off position. Good thought but already went down that road.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There is a switch on any command locomotive that I've ever seen or worked on. The only ones that don't have a switch are some of the PW conventional ones, and a few starter set locomotives.

The "Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid" is not a requirement, it's just a recommendation. I use JT's MegaSteam in everything, including the $2,000 Vision Line Big Boy.


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## cjack (Jan 28, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That would be Mike Reagan, right?
> 
> As far as his statements, I suspect that's more Lionel management talking, you wouldn't expect him to promote a competitive product, would you?
> 
> FWIW, I get to work on a LOT of smoke units, and I see no evidence of Mike's comments actually having any credence.


Yes Reagan.
It's good to hear your experience. I kind of like the Clove and want to continue using it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hank Rearden said:


> There is indeed a switch. I doesn't work in either the on or off position. Good thought but already went down that road.


We had a thread about something that went on for quite a while.
I can't remember what it was about, but after a week of everyone giving their thoughts it turned out to be something as simple as that.
No one thought to ask the simple question if they had done it. It should have been the first thing we all asked the one who had the problem.
So I had to ask.

Maybe the switch is bad? 
Maybe a wire worked loose from the switch?
You didn't take anything apart did you? 

Repeat question,
You didn't mention if these are brand new or used? Did you? I am guessing they are new?

Brand new I would send it back too, unless they would fix it at a service shop near me, for free.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

big ed said:


> We had a thread about something that went on for quite a while.
> I can't remember what it was about, but after a week of everyone giving their thoughts it turned out to be something as simple as that.
> No one thought to ask the simple question if they had done it. It should have been the first thing we all asked the one who had the problem.
> So I had to ask.
> ...


Brand new from Amazon. It's going back.

I'm still a little concerned with the new diesel I bought on Ebay though. Got a good price and I won't be returning it. Just trying to understand how the unit is supposed to work.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

The smoke fluid provided with your loco is meant to get you started. Of course Lionel doesn't give you a small tube of their Premium, but a tube of the everyday stuff. The Premium is better stuff so obviously they want you to go buy it.

Hank, I hate to say but you are going through what many hobbyists go through all the time.

Hang in there though, we will do all we can to get you on the right path.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Jeff T said:


> The smoke fluid provided with your loco is meant to get you started. Of course Lionel doesn't give you a small tube of their Premium, but a tube of the everyday stuff. The Premium is better stuff so obviously they want you to go buy it.
> 
> Hank, I hate to say but you are going through what many hobbyists go through all the time.
> 
> Hang in there though, we will do all we can to get you on the right path.


It's a slow go getting started but I'll get there. I love the LC+ diesel. It's great looking loco.

I have another thread going to get a decent transformer. I think I'm going to end up with an older, more powerful, refurb versus a new Cw-80. Maybe a 1033 or a KW.

Thanks for the info. I'll be placing an order for the better fluid very soon.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Hank Rearden said:


> It's a slow go getting started but I'll get there. I love the LC+ diesel. It's great looking loco.
> 
> I have another thread going to get a decent transformer. I think I'm going to end up with an older, more powerful, refurb versus a new Cw-80. Maybe a 1033 or a KW.
> 
> Thanks for the info. I'll be placing an order for the better fluid very soon.


Why don't you try some JT's MegaSteam?
John should know if they will gunk it up, as he said he doesn't see any evidence of it doing that. I suspect as he does it is a marketing thing, I would say the same thing so people buy my brand over the competitors brand.
We had a thread here about making your own a while back.

They do come in scented flavors if you have a favorite they might make it.
So when and if it starts smoking your room will smell good too.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

JTs is not going to gunk up your smoke unit. Been using it for years in steam and diesel engines and never seen any gunk. I have only used Lionel smoke fluid to run some tests recently. JTs has to be the most common any where you go.

The 2 biggest reasons smoke units don't work or perform to their capabilities:

1. TOO MUCH smoke fluid

2. NOT ENOUGH smoke fluid

It's a learning experience to find that right spot for each locomotive.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

After not enough smoke fluid for a spell, you have a different issue, it's called charred wick.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> After not enough smoke fluid for a spell, you have a different issue, it's called charred wick.


I'm about tempted to open up the unit so I can see what it looks like inside. Maybe that would give me an idea as to why mine might not be smoking like it should.

Is it hard to open up a 6-38819 LionChief Plus RS-3 Diesel?

Does the smoke fluid evaporate quickly? Meaning you would need to add fluid each time you run it day to day?


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Hank Rearden said:


> I'm about tempted to open up the unit so I can see what it looks like inside. Maybe that would give me an idea as to why mine might not be smoking like it should.
> 
> Is it hard to open up a 6-38819 LionChief Plus RS-3 Diesel?
> 
> Does the smoke fluid evaporate quickly? Meaning you would need to add fluid each time you run it day to day?


Most of these are fairly simple to open up. Just realize if you do you will void the warranty. Many of us end up doing our own maintenance it's part of the process. With yours not smoking as well as you would like my guess is the wick is charred not allowing the resistor to burn off the fluid. Problem is you add more thinking it's low and that's how they become an overfilled mess.

Smoke fluid, too little too much, something you will learn over time and every engine is different. As smoke diminishes, add a little more fluid.

Here's a pic of a charred wick.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The LC+ stuff comes apart pretty easily, and I'm not really that sure you really void your warranty. Truthfully, unless you screw up, they can't really tell you've been in there if you don't tell them.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The LC+ stuff comes apart pretty easily, and I'm not really that sure you really void your warranty. Truthfully, unless you screw up, they can't really tell you've been in there if you don't tell them.


That's kinda what I thought as well.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Jeff T said:


> Most of these are fairly simple to open up. Just realize if you do you will void the warranty. Many of us end up doing our own maintenance it's part of the process. With yours not smoking as well as you would like my guess is the wick is charred not allowing the resistor to burn off the fluid. Problem is you add more thinking it's low and that's how they become an overfilled mess.
> 
> Smoke fluid, too little too much, something you will learn over time and every engine is different. As smoke diminishes, add a little more fluid.
> 
> Here's a pic of a charred wick.


My total run time on this engine is maybe 10 total minutes. I'm inclined to think the wick isn't burnt. But that's just a guess.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

10 minutes of run time with a dry wick is more than enough time to burn it. ;-)


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sometimes they resistor and wick just aren't situated properly in the bowl.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Sometimes they resistor and wick just aren't situated properly in the bowl.


Sounds logical. It'll start smoking only after blowing down the stack but after the train moves, it stops smoking even though the fan is still running.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The resistor should be firmly seated in the wick, but there should be a path for airflow between the fan chamber opening and the stack over the resistor.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Here are a couple of pictures:
This one appears to show maybe a little burning out of the wick.

Here it is inserted into the wick.

Here's a picture of the reservoir that captures the fluid and then it is supposed to drain onto the wick I guess. I'm not convinced that the hole lines up exactly over the wick. And I think blowing down the stack made more of a mess each time I did it versus clearing any path as has been suggested. Why wouldn't it just allow to drop directly onto the wick so the material can absorb it?

It's back together except the 4 screws holding the body on but it still won't work and seems to have gotten worse. Is that wick just completely toast?


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## cjack (Jan 28, 2010)

Didn't Mike also say that you couldn't burn the wicking with a flame, that the black was burned smoke fluid?


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

cjack said:


> Didn't Mike also say that you couldn't burn the wicking with a flame, that the black was burned smoke fluid?


Maybe someone will chime in. Maybe it is getting in there but not vaporizing like it should.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What I do is turn the wick over and expose a fresh side. That smoke unit needs more than four drops!

When you have it open, try soaking the wick. You don't want it dripping off, but you want the whole wick wetted. You'll find out it's going to take more like 15-20 drops to do that.


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## cjack (Jan 28, 2010)

Hank Rearden said:


> Here are a couple of pictures:
> This one appears to show maybe a little burning out of the wick.
> 
> Here it is inserted into the wick.
> ...


Did you turn the wicking over? Seems like that would be a good try if you don't have new stuff.


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## cjack (Jan 28, 2010)

...and what said only 4 drops, now that I think about that?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

cjack said:


> ...and what said only 4 drops, now that I think about that?


The user manual, but I suspect it was just carried over from the LC line, they obviously missed that update for the fan driven LC+ models.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

cjack said:


> ...and what said only 4 drops, now that I think about that?


The manual.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What I do is turn the wick over and expose a fresh side. That smoke unit needs more than four drops!
> 
> When you have it open, try soaking the wick. You don't want it dripping off, but you want the whole wick wetted. You'll find out it's going to take more like 15-20 drops to do that.


I will try turning it over and get it nice and moist. Should the element (not sure the technical term) be slightly exposed on the top of the wick? And should I clean the debris out of it?

Thanks for the advice. This will likely wait to the AM before I take it apart again.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes, the smoke resistor should be firmly in contact with the wick, but the top of it MUST be exposed, that's where it gets the hottest and evaporates the mineral oil to make the "smoke". Any "debris" should be cleaned out.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

From looking at your photos, you were not getting any smoke because that wick was dry. Since you have it apart....soak it. You dont want a puddle, but if you push it with your finger, fluid should ooze out.

Thats exactly why I started fixing my own smoke units.... because I was sure that I flooded them, when in fact they were dry and burnt.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

The next question you are going to ask is about the wicking. As in the true hobbyist fashion you will get multiple replies. 

Over the years I have switched over to tiki torch wicks for one reason. The hardware store is less than a mile from me! I disassemble the wick into the smaller pieces and use them.

In this video you can see the Lionel wick is similar and how its fluffed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYuGB8PRRc8


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use a variety of wick material. I used to use the Tiki torch wick, my only complaint was it was hard to work with, the fine strands just seemed they wanted to escape with any chance they got.  I use the Lionel wick, MTH wick, some fiberglass batting, and also some interesting really long wick I got off eBay some time back, I cut it to fit. Between the assortment, I can usually find something that works well in any situation.


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## jeleak (Dec 14, 2015)

Hello, I am new here (and to trains). A reason why I had joined was I had seen this thread and wanted to ask a follow up question to the OP. How can I tell when to reapply the smoke fluid? and when well we know when to service the wick? 

I got my wife a Railking Christmas Express as a pre-Chrismas present that we will hopefully turn into a holiday tradition of adding onto each year(and after researching more, probably be a hobby of mine/ours the other part of the year >.<).


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Well I'm not the original OP, but there really is no "RIGHT" answer to your question... when to add more. You can add a couple drops at any time, but you really need to see your smoke unit working at peak performance to know how much smoke it will really put out. Once you have seen it smoke really well, you will quickly notice when that volume dies down. 

If you watched my YouTube video where I put 120 drops in my Cabforward.... yes 120.... it smoked like an episode of Pit Masters for 30 minutes before I noticed a significant drop off in smoke volume. Then I put 60 in it just to re-wet it. I'm not telling you to put 60 or 120 drops in your engine, my point is you really need to get to know your engines/smoke units to know what they are capable of doing.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

This will help you understand your smoke units a little better.


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## jeleak (Dec 14, 2015)

Laidoffsick- That's almost exactly what I was looking for, more or less you never want the wick to dry out. And to slowly add the fluid until you get full smoke for an "extended" amount of time. I'm picking up what you are putting down. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

OP - I just opened my PE Berk smoke unit, which is not like yours. Added new wicking and 30 drops of smoke fluid before reassembly. The wicking was close to saturated. Back on the track she puffed like she never has before.

Good Luck with yours!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Note that different smoke units will have a different "maximum capacity", so don't take the 120 drops as gospel. I took out a Lionel pre-Legacy smoke unit with the 27 ohm resistor and tried to put 120 drops into the bowl with no wick, just the bowl. It overflowed into the fan chamber, so clearly for this smoke unit, that would have been excessive. The "right" amount for this one would probably be in the 40-50 drop range with a wick and resistor installed.

The message here is you need to know what you have, and adjust the fill to suit. The message that Doug is sending is almost universally the manufacturer's recommendations are low.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

In this video I only put 80 drops in


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

See that Doug, already compromising on your maximum.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

It was the 1st video so I hadn't got that brave yet lol


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yes, the smoke resistor should be firmly in contact with the wick, but the top of it MUST be exposed, that's where it gets the hottest and evaporates the mineral oil to make the "smoke". Any "debris" should be cleaned out.


Very good to know.



Laidoffsick said:


> From looking at your photos, you were not getting any smoke because that wick was dry. Since you have it apart....soak it. You dont want a puddle, but if you push it with your finger, fluid should ooze out.
> 
> Thats exactly why I started fixing my own smoke units.... because I was sure that I flooded them, when in fact they were dry and burnt.


I watched your video last night and WOW, was that enlightening and helpful! Thank you! Those videos should be a sticky!



Jeff T said:


> The next question you are going to ask is about the wicking. As in the true hobbyist fashion you will get multiple replies.
> 
> Over the years I have switched over to tiki torch wicks for one reason. The hardware store is less than a mile from me! I disassemble the wick into the smaller pieces and use them.
> 
> ...


I will have to watch that whole video but in watching Laidoffsick's video, I don't think the material matters as much as properly saturating the wick before firing it up.



jeleak said:


> Hello, I am new here (and to trains). A reason why I had joined was I had seen this thread and wanted to ask a follow up question to the OP. How can I tell when to reapply the smoke fluid? and when well we know when to service the wick?
> 
> I got my wife a Railking Christmas Express as a pre-Chrismas present that we will hopefully turn into a holiday tradition of adding onto each year(and after researching more, probably be a hobby of mine/ours the other part of the year >.<).


Best I can tell there is no real way to tell other than if it stops smoking that it must be dry and if more is not added the wick will burn and worsen the chance of getting it running again properly without opening up the unit, which I think violates the warranty. I AM NO EXPERT so take this advice with caution. I opened mine up figuring I needed to learn. I suggest watching the below video first. He did a fantastic job!



Laidoffsick said:


> .... it smoked like an episode of Pit Masters for 30 minutes


I started this thread so I am going to take a liberty here and change Pit Masters to an episode of Lost featuring the Smoke Monster! 



Jeff T said:


> OP - I just opened my PE Berk smoke unit, which is not like yours. Added new wicking and 30 drops of smoke fluid before reassembly. The wicking was close to saturated. Back on the track she puffed like she never has before.
> 
> Good Luck with yours!


:smilie_daumenpos:



gunrunnerjohn said:


> Note that different smoke units will have a different "maximum capacity", so don't take the 120 drops as gospel. I took out a Lionel pre-Legacy smoke unit with the 27 ohm resistor and tried to put 120 drops into the bowl with no wick, just the bowl. It overflowed into the fan chamber, so clearly for this smoke unit, that would have been excessive. The "right" amount for this one would probably be in the 40-50 drop range with a wick and resistor installed.
> 
> The message here is you need to know what you have, and adjust the fill to suit. The message that Doug is sending is almost universally the manufacturer's recommendations are low.


Very true. I am glad I opened mine up to see what I was dealing with.


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

So after opening it back up this morning I seem to have had some success with a minor problem.

I took out the wick completely and it is a crumbly mess not unlike the aforementioned video. But I had to work with it as that is all I have at the moment. I tried turning it upside down and that helped a bit but the burned portions seemed to still be mixed in (hard to explain). I got it packed in and I saturated it about as much I felt comfortable with (30-40 drops). I didn't run out turning it upside down but would ooze a tad when depressed. I put it all back together and started up the track and nothing right away. After a few minutes I had the smoke that was hard to see but after 5 minutes or so (I should have timed it) it seems to be working much better but nothing like some videos I've seen online. I don't have to struggle to see the smoke but it isn't very thick either. I'm going to chalk it up to the cheap fluid I have on hand that came with the unit and the partially burned up wick. I will be ordering a wick and some premium fluid later today. If anyone has a good online source other than Ebay just let me know but I'm a big Ebay fan.

The downside of my experience. The three screws that hold the smoke unit gasket in place were wicked tight. The squeaked all the way out and all the way back in EXCEPT FOR THE ONE THE I STRIPPED THE HEAD ON!! It is mostly the way back in but won't go any further. I could get it out with needle nose pliers but don't have a replacement screw. It seems to be tight enough on there for now. Also, there are two screws holding the unit itself to the body of the cab and one of those goes all the way in but keeps turning.

Any of you repair guys know how I can obtain a new screw for the gasket (how do I determine what part # to look for) and what can I do for the other one, if anything?

And thanks to everyone that has had input to this thread. I am finally to a point where I feel I can move forward and having some idea of what I'm doing! :smilie_daumenpos:

Knowldge is Power!!


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

The precut batting stuff is junk IMHO, I always use the rope style replacements. Once the pre-cut stuff is burnt and crumbles.... replace it.

The more fluid you put in there, it takes longer to heat up to get max smoke.
3-5 minutes sometimes

When I have mine apart, I presoak the wick. Then after the engine is back together, and sitting on the track, I add another 10 drops just to top it off so to speak.

I have a parts drawer of "Misc screws" because stripped screws in these things are common. Local hobby shop, hardware store, misc projects where I have saved screws etc


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)




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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Someone call the fire department! LOL

What is the official name for the batting material?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have no idea of where you buy the screws, but I'm like Doug, I keep a large assortment of screws around to replace such mistakes.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Damn Doug, did the smoke detector go off!


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I had to take the smoke detectors out of the bar and game rooms for that very reason.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Its a Lionel part:

Smoke Unit Batting, 8" long, pre-cut fiberglass

691SMKP008


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Laidoffsick said:


> Its a Lionel part:
> 
> Smoke Unit Batting, 8" long, pre-cut fiberglass
> 
> 691SMKP008


The only place I can find it is from Lionel replacement parts. LOL


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Hank Rearden said:


> The only place I can find it is from Lionel replacement parts. LOL


That's one of the reasons for all the alternate materials, accessibility!


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## Hank Rearden (Dec 30, 2014)

Jeff T said:


> That's one of the reasons for all the alternate materials, accessibility!


I have access to the Lionel Retail Store in Concord (40 minutes drive or so). But it is a small store but I wonder if I can call ahead for parts. I might even be able to get a replacement screw. 

Maybe I'll try to call them tomorrow.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

My local train store looks at me funny every time I ask them for the rope batting. I have more MTH engines now so I just stock up on the MTH batting and use that with my lionel engines


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dream on about the screw, you'll just have to ad-lib that one. Those tiny self-tapping screws are in a lot of cheap plastic toys. The small metric ones come from dead laptops and hard disks.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> The next question you are going to ask is about the wicking. As in the true hobbyist fashion you will get multiple replies.
> 
> Over the years I have switched over to tiki torch wicks for one reason. The hardware store is less than a mile from me! I disassemble the wick into the smaller pieces and use them.
> 
> ...




Jeff
Tiki Torch wicking seems to be working. Although, it is hard to find this time year. I looked at Menards and Home Depot and they do not have it. Online, it says it is available to Lowes but that is 10 mile commute for me so I was able to get it at local ACE Hardware store. It is cheaper than buying it from Lionel. I have been having troubles with my Hiawatha smoke stack. The old wicking was burnt up. Made sure that I soaked the new Lionel replacement wicking, but after running it for about 15 min it stopped smoking again. Took the engine apart again and found that the wicking started to burn up again. I had to replace it again with Tiki Torch wicking because I no longer had any from Lionel. Seems like the smoke unit gets hot very quick. So, I am in process of trying to figure out when I need to add smoke to this particular engine because it is different from my other Legacy & MTH engines. Putting the smoke fluid down the smoke stack is pointing at angle so I have noticed that some the smoke fluid has been leaking down the sides of smoke unit rather than getting into the reservoir. This is not obvious by looking at it from outside from the shell. I found the wicking to dry out very quickly causing it to burn up. I also learned recently, that smoke stack on my Lionel Legacy 261 S3 also points at angle rather than straight down. So, you are correct each smoke unit is different and can be tricky.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

The resistors get very very hot, and will take your skin right off. That's why its very important to keep that wick wet. So many people run their engines around not realizing the smoke unit is still on, but they haven't put any fluid in it. I've done it myself many times in years past. Turns your wick into a pile of black crumbs.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My problem with the Tiki wick is that the little strands go everywhere. Once you get it tamed and all stuffed into the smoke unit, it seems to perform fine.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

kstrains said:


> Jeff
> Tiki Torch wicking seems to be working. Although, it is hard to find this time year. I looked at Menards and Home Depot and they do not have it. Online, it says it is available to Lowes but that is 10 mile commute for me so I was able to get it at local ACE Hardware store. It is cheaper than buying it from Lionel. I have been having troubles with my Hiawatha smoke stack. The old wicking was burnt up. Made sure that I soaked the new Lionel replacement wicking, but after running it for about 15 min it stopped smoking again. Took the engine apart again and found that the wicking started to burn up again. I had to replace it again with Tiki Torch wicking because I no longer had any from Lionel. Seems like the smoke unit gets hot very quick. So, I am in process of trying to figure out when I need to add smoke to this particular engine because it is different from my other Legacy & MTH engines. Putting the smoke fluid down the smoke stack is pointing at angle so I have noticed that some the smoke fluid has been leaking down the sides of smoke unit rather than getting into the reservoir. This is not obvious by looking at it from outside from the shell. I found the wicking to dry out very quickly causing it to burn up. I also learned recently, that smoke stack on my Lionel Legacy 261 S3 also points at angle rather than straight down. So, you are correct each smoke unit is different and can be tricky.


Amen brother! 

Each engine is different and I wouldn't be surprised if transformer, load and numerous other things keep any two smoke units from acting alike.

In my years of doing this I believe I am in the majority that keep them under filled. Every time I open a smoke unit I learn a little more!


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

cjack said:


> Didn't Mike also say that you couldn't burn the wicking with a flame, that the black was burned smoke fluid?


He did say that, in writing, coupled with a comparison between Lionel Premium smoke fluid and Megasteam. The latter, he said, causes a sticky residue to build up leading to premature deterioration of Lionel smoke units. I won't quote the whole thing but you can find it here: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/...-a-question-you-might-have-stumpreagan?page=2

Personally I have seen MTH rope wicking that is definitely burned and the Lionel pre-cut pads LOS shows in one of his videos look to have sustained heat damage rather than just a build up of some sort of residue. In any case the pre-cut pads will crumble if you find them blackened in the unit and in that state, whatever the exact cause, they cannot be re-used.

I'm not knocking Mike's comment as if anyone's an expert about smoke units he is but I don't think it holds good across all types of wicking.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> He did say that, in writing, coupled with a comparison between Lionel Premium smoke fluid and Megasteam. The latter, he said, causes a sticky residue to build up leading to premature deterioration of Lionel smoke units. I won't quote the whole thing but you can find it here: http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/...-a-question-you-might-have-stumpreagan?page=2
> 
> Personally I have seen MTH rope wicking that is definitely burned and the Lionel pre-cut pads LOS shows in one of his videos look to have sustained heat damage rather than just a build up of some sort of residue. In any case the pre-cut pads will crumble if you find them blackened in the unit and in that state, whatever the exact cause, they cannot be re-used.
> 
> I'm not knocking Mike's comment as if anyone's an expert about smoke units he is but I don't think it holds good across all types of wicking.


As a Lionel representative Mike has to toe the company line. Could you imaging if he didn't!!

Should he ever decide to leave I'll bet he could write a book with some very interesting stories!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, while you can't "burn" it with a flame, you can melt it, and if you've ever pulled out a hard lump of wick, that's from excessive heat without fluid to keep it cool. I just tried a flame with a chunk of the MTH braided wick, it melted into a hard chunk! The black is doubtless burned smoke fluid as Mike says, you can burn mineral oil. Most likely, the reason that it burns is there's not enough fluid to keep the resistor at operating temperature and it gets hot enough to char the remaining fluid.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I certainly don't mean any disrespect to Mike but I do think his explanation might have been a little selective. Info about the advantages of Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid was a little slow in coming out after Lionel started advertising the product. In fact I think it was several months before anyone (Jon Z.) disclosed that the product was formulated to reduce the black residue.

The MTH O scale smoke units I have seen come from the factory with the rope wicking looped over/between the resistors. It pretty quickly gets blackened, yellow at the edges beyond the resistor contact and hard because the fibres are fused together. That is heat damage, not the result of using MTH or MegaSteam fluid. I've always thought that it must result in less fluid being conducted (for want of a better word) to contact with the resistors.That said I don't see any great loss of smoke output from my MTH units after they have been run for long periods but I am constantly topping up the fluid every operating session.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The MTH units seem to smoke fine, even with a pretty gnarly looking wick. I only replace them in extreme cases for my stuff. For customers, if they have smoke issues, the smoke wick will get replaced if it's not in decent shape, I don't want to get callbacks.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The MTH units seem to smoke fine, even with a pretty gnarly looking wick. I only replace them in extreme cases for my stuff. For customers, if they have smoke issues, the smoke wick will get replaced if it's not in decent shape, I don't want to get callbacks.


Understood but it kind of adds to the mystery (as far as I am concerned) about what's going on inside the smoke unit to produce a good volume of smoke. I never thought about it before but I wonder how far it is necessary for the fluid actually to be in contact with the resistor surface to vaporize, or maybe the resistor heats up the wicking in the chamber enough to do the job. In any case the MTH dual resistor units have always been better than Lionel's or other manufacturer's units until relatively recently.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, my experience is that the resistor has to be in fairly solid contact with the wick, but have some exposed area that will get hotter and evaporate the mineral oil. The wick's primary purpose is to get the fluid to the hot resistor.


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