# Lionel 675 lingage quartering



## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

I need to replace the back wheel on my 675. I keep hearing about needing to re-quarter the wheels. Can someone describe how to do this?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The way many shops do it is with a quartering tool. Here's one site that sells them.

http://www.portlines.com/tools.htm


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*Quartering tool*

Thanks, but too much cost for a one time effort. I need a manual method.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

I used a 4" bench vise. Getting the wheels off can be the tricky part.

Quartering refers to the difference between the right and left wheel linkages, but doesn't really affect models. What does affect them however is the linkage on each side needs to align properly with the wheels on that side or they will bind as they turn (remember the linkage causes them all to turn in together).

As I remember it I assembled the geared wheel and axle and slid that in the motor. I installed the linkage on that side and checked to make sure there was no binding. Once I got zero bind with the geared wheel it will stay that way even with the linkage off unless you disengage the gears (don't let the axle slip out).

Final step is to press on the ungeared wheel. Here too you have to be aware of wheel bind through the linkage, I remember having to do it a couple times. I picked a spot to align all the linkage holes (straight up, or whatever) and actually measured between the two that were already installed.

Take your best shot, install the linkage. If it binds you have to do it over again, just don't mess with the wheels that already work.

Not fun, not easy, but doable. Just need a little time and some patience.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It can be done as rkenney said. Agreed , not easy or fun but doable. I think I put a wheel on once because it was loose. I took it off and gently squeezed the axial with a pair of vise grips to make a grip for the wheel to bind to. If its just a little loose this might work.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*Linkage*

Sounds like a challenge and I love a challenge. I'll give it go but first need to send for the eccentric screw. ( the train shop lost it on me).


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rkenney said:


> Quartering refers to the difference between the right and left wheel linkages, but doesn't really affect models. What does affect them however is the linkage on each side needs to align properly with the wheels on that side or they will bind as they turn (remember the linkage causes them all to turn in together).


How do you figure it doesn't affect the right and left sides? Since the wheelsets are on hard axles, they all have to be proper or you'll have binding. If it was only the linkage on one side, it wouldn't be a problem.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Think about it John!

Quartering refers specifically to the 90 degree offset from the left to right side. A result of the steam locomotive power strokes so that power occurs for all 360 degrees of wheel rotation. 

Not necessary for an electric motor powered toy, only exists for accuracy. If the rods on both sides of the engine were timed to move together it would not be accurate but it would work just fine (you can only see one side of the engine at a time anyway).

Each side must have accurate spacing for the rod on that side though to prevent binding. Even close won't cut it for one side, might spin free for halfway and then bind, might not bind for two or three revolutions then the error adds up and binds.

Quartering on a toy locomotive is a convention not a necessity. Very seldom are all the wheels removed so when it is reassembled if it doesn't bind it will be 'quartered.' If one wheel is replaced 'quartering' per say isn't the goal, especially if you don't have the wheel cups. Preventing wheel linkage bind is.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rkenney said:


> Think about it John!
> 
> Quartering refers specifically to the 90 degree offset from the left to right side. A result of the steam locomotive power strokes so that power occurs for all 360 degrees of wheel rotation.
> 
> ...


Maybe not for all, but for DCC operation they say the wheels must be quartered.
Copy and paste,

Steam locomotive drivers are "quartered". The crank pins are set 90 degrees apart.
The process of aligning the pins is called quartering. This is usually done in a jig. All the drivers must be quartered in the same manner to avoid binding, caused by one driver not being in phase with the others. All must be done at the same time, using the same jig, as no two jigs are alike.
When working on a steam locomotive, it is very important, since if the drive train binds or jams, the decoder could be damaged or destroyed. Older brass may need this checked and adjusted to obtain smooth operation before conversion to DCC.
Quartering is a big job, requiring a lot of time and patience. The entire drivetrain must be adjusted and any corrections made so that the wheels will rotate freely.

As a rule, if the engine runs fine, do not mess with it. The process of aligning, adjusting and quartering should only be done if there are problems. Tolerances are in the range of a few thousands of an inch.
In real life, a locomotive could not start if the drivers were not quartered. They also spent a lot of time adjusting and shimming bearing blocks to line up the wheels correctly with respect to the rest of the rotating assembly.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

That's not true. Dcc doesn't care if the engine has no rods at all. 

If you're going to run rods each side has to be synchronized with itself. If it's 180 degrees offset from the other side it will still run, and DCC won't know.

If, big if, you have the correct wheel cups they are set up to achieve a 90 degree offset between sides.

If you don't have wheel cups, don't worry about it. Just make sure each side works without binding. 

This means as I described before to assemble one side first and then the other side when you have zero bind. When your done if the crank pins are more or less than 90 degrees it doesn't matter as long as the wheels don't bind on the linkage.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, I don't have any DCC. I just found that.
It does say, if the drive train binds or jams, the decoder could be damaged or destroyed so your saying that is wrong, impossible?

I have had wheels off a couple of Lionel locomotives and put on new ones years ago. I didn't even know about quartering the wheels back then. I thought if a wheel was bad you just replace it and that is what I did. 

I guess I lucked it out as when I put everything back together they ran fine.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

big ed said:


> Well, I don't have any DCC. I just found that.
> It does say, if the drive train binds or jams, the decoder could be damaged or destroyed




Obviously if the drive train binds the train doesn't run very well. That's not quite the same as having the left and right crank pins offset by 90 degrees (quatering) is it?:stroke:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rkenney said:


> Obviously if the drive train binds the train doesn't run very well. That's not quite the same as having the left and right crank pins offset by 90 degrees (quatering) is it?:stroke:


quatering? Your accent from England? 
Or from Boston? 

I guess if it binds on DCC you can fry something?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The decoder apparently.

No accent, just skip a letter know and then!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rkenney said:


> The decoder apparently.
> 
> No accent, just skip a letter know and then!


Ok, OK, don't get all excited now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rkenney said:


> Think about it John!


Oh, I did think about it, and my thinking is that you're wrong. With most O-gauge stuff that I work on, there is only one set of driven wheels that are geared from the motor, the rods are actually functional and drive the other wheels. If you have the rods in the same place on both sides, they will indeed not run properly and you'll quickly find out. 

You're thinking of the old PW stuff where all the wheels are actually gear driven and the rods are just for show. However, most of the newer stuff actually requires the rods to be quartered.

I will give you this, the #675 specifically doesn't need to be properly quartered as it does drive all the wheels. So, I'll allow that you're right for this particular thread, but in general, you're wrong.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Utt Oh.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Oh, I did think about it, and my thinking is that you're wrong. With most O-gauge stuff that I work on, there is only one set of driven wheels that are geared from the motor, the rods are actually functional and drive the other wheels. If you have the rods in the same place on both sides, they will indeed not run properly and you'll quickly find out.
> 
> You're thinking of the old PW stuff where all the wheels are actually gear driven and the rods are just for show. However, most of the newer stuff actually requires the rods to be quartered.
> 
> I will give you this, the #675 specifically doesn't need to be properly quartered as it does drive all the wheels. So, I'll allow that you're right for this particular thread, but in general, you're wrong.


All we were talkin' about was a 675. The fact that you're thinkin' about something not discussed proves nothing. 

You can still drive the wheels with linkage and not have a 90 degree offset. The offset refers to the connecting rods that go to phony cylinders. So unless your talkin' live steam they do nothing. 

So while we're on the subject do your locos lead with the right cylinder or the left?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I am left handed so I will go with Left.
Buzzz, wrong huh?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the linkage was at the same place on each wheel, when it gets to the end of the stroke, the wheels will bind. Since it doesn't pertain to the 675, and you've convinced yourself that you're right, I'll bow out of this discussion.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If the linkage was at the same place on each wheel, when it gets to the end of the stroke, the wheels will bind. Since it doesn't pertain to the 675, and you've convinced yourself that you're right, I'll bow out of this discussion.


Come on John, pick a side.
You right handed? Pick right, I went with Left.

I do know that one of us would be right.
Unless both sides is the correct answer, then I will call foul!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Okay, so what does quartering do on a model? Imagine that the rod on one side of an 0-4-0 is at the end of it's horizontal stroke - the crank pins are perfectly level with the axles. If you turn one axle, which was does it force the other one to turn? There is nothing which constrains the other axle from turning in the opposite direction if there is only one rod, since turning either way would move its crank pin the required distance from the pin on the powered axle. Note that it does not matter (we never even specified) which end of the stroke the rod is at. now, if the rod on the other side is at exactly the same angle as this one (0 degree quartering), clearly it can act in the same way and the engine won't go. If you think about it, 180 degree quartering will do exactly the same thing. If the drivers were quartered at 180 degrees, you could turn the two axles in different directions.

What is needed is some way of constraining the axles so that they are forced to turn in the same direction at all times. Since binding and cross rotation occur at the end of the stroke, the logical thing is to have a second rod located so that it is at the middle of the stroke (either up or down) when the first one is at the end. Thus when one side could bind, the other forces the wheels to keep turning the same way. That's 90 degree quartering. However, it doesn't take much to keep the wheels from binding - even a few degrees on either side of the end of the stroke will do the job. In theory, .001 degree would work, but some allowance has to be made for the slop in the fit between the crank pins and rods, as well as the axles in their bearings, so in reality let's say 10 degrees will do the job reliably. Thus, 10 degree quartering, or 170, or anywhere in between, would serve the purpose reliably. 90 degrees is right in the middle, and the best case scenario.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*The science of quartering*

WOW! They ought to give a course in this with three levels, beginner, intermediate and advanced quartering. I'll start with quartering 101.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Okay, so what does quartering do on a model? Imagine that the rod on one side of an 0-4-0 is at the end of it's horizontal stroke - the crank pins are perfectly level with the axles. If you turn one axle, which was does it force the other one to turn? There is nothing which constrains the other axle from turning in the opposite direction if there is only one rod, since turning either way would move its crank pin the required distance from the pin on the powered axle. Note that it does not matter (we never even specified) which end of the stroke the rod is at. now, if the rod on the other side is at exactly the same angle as this one (0 degree quartering), clearly it can act in the same way and the engine won't go. If you think about it, 180 degree quartering will do exactly the same thing. If the drivers were quartered at 180 degrees, you could turn the two axles in different directions.
> 
> What is needed is some way of constraining the axles so that they are forced to turn in the same direction at all times. Since binding and cross rotation occur at the end of the stroke, the logical thing is to have a second rod located so that it is at the middle of the stroke (either up or down) when the first one is at the end. Thus when one side could bind, the other forces the wheels to keep turning the same way. That's 90 degree quartering. However, it doesn't take much to keep the wheels from binding - even a few degrees on either side of the end of the stroke will do the job. In theory, .001 degree would work, but some allowance has to be made for the slop in the fit between the crank pins and rods, as well as the axles in their bearings, so in reality let's say 10 degrees will do the job reliably. Thus, 10 degree quartering, or 170, or anywhere in between, would serve the purpose reliably. 90 degrees is right in the middle, and the best case scenario.



So does this mean you picked the right side?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Newtown Joe said:


> WOW! They ought to give a course in this with three levels, beginner, intermediate and advanced quartering. I'll start with quartering 101.


We've started your coursework right here.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Some people should be drawn and quatered.

So how does that work with 060. In fact I can only see your scenario with 040.

And it still doesn't need to be 'quartered' the two sides just need to have different angles of attack. Exactly how far you can go in either direction is not readily apparent, they just can't be equal.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Newtown Joe said:


> WOW! They ought to give a course in this with three levels, beginner, intermediate and advanced quartering. I'll start with quartering 101.


You don't need concern yourself with quartering, your just installing one wheel (axle). Return to post 4 and follow the instructions.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*Quartering*

And I used to think timing my '56 Chevy was a challenge.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rkenney said:


> You don't need concern yourself with quartering, your just installing one wheel (axle). Return to post 4 and follow the instructions.


So while we're on the subject do your locos lead with the right cylinder or the left?
Well? What is the answer, I got to go to sleep sometime.
I don't want to have nightmares.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rkenney said:


> Some people should be drawn and quatered.
> 
> So how does that work with 060. In fact I can only see your scenario with 040.
> 
> And it still doesn't need to be 'quartered' the two sides just need to have different angles of attack. Exactly how far you can go in either direction is not readily apparent, they just can't be equal.


It works the same way if the 0-6-0 wheels are driven by the rods, there are just more wheels to bind at the wrong time. The 0-4-0 example just seemed to be simple enough for all to understand. 

Yes, you don't have to be at a true 90 degrees, you just need a difference of enough to keep the wheels going in the correct direction.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Most railroads had the right side crank-pins leading the left. In other words, when the right rods were at their lowest point the left side was on front dead center. The PRR was the biggest user of left-hand lead locomotives. Someone theorized that it was because PRR had so much multiple-track territory; the most solid part of a multiple-track roadbed is toward the center, and since the side of a locomotive that has the lead is the side that pounds the track hardest, PRR wanted the locomotive to pound the most solid part of the roadbed - the left hand side. 

Don't know how you might know what I've "convinced myself" of, John. Thank you for lowering yourself to actually explaining something with words. Up to this date I was convinced you were incapable of it.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Newtown, me and you will just go bact to the beginner thread! Im kidding , much more fun and knowledge here. Its way over my head too. I understand the principles, and they said it dosent realy apply to your application. So give it a try and post the results!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rkenney said:


> the left hand side.



I knew that. 
I write with my left hand, but I am actually ambidextrous. :smokin:

Now I won't go to sleep and dream about left?, right?, left?, right?, with steam whistles blowing and wheels a clanking tonight. 

I should have pulled out one of my Big books on Steam Locomotives, but I was too lazy tonight.  Cut a hundred feet of 7' tall bushes down to 4', I should have done it last month before they got all the green on it! They look like hell but they will grow back.

Now I can go to sleep in peace and dream about my private Island with the white sand beaches and aqua blue water and hula girls waiting on me.
thankyou, goodnight.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

It'll be awhile because I need to send for that eccentric screw, but I'll get back with the results.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Newtown Joe said:


> It'll be awhile because I need to send for that eccentric screw, but I'll get back with the results.


Joe, do you see the one screw you have is bent as servoguy mentioned?

See the eccentric at work?








The locomotive generates the steam that gets to the cylinder therefor pushing the valve rods/gear to make it go.
This is a Walschaerts valve gear, there are other different types.

Look at some others if you want,

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/appliances/valvegear.php#


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*675 loose wheel*

OK, I sent to Olsen's for a new axle. The old one was definitely the problem. Now quartering is needed because it took me many tries to get it not to bind. In the end, I just got lucky trying various positions and bingo no bind.
Now it's running great (so far).


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

How 'bout that! 

And you didn't need a 500 dollar arbor press and wheel cups?:appl:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Newtown Joe said:


> OK, I sent to Olsen's for a new axle. The old one was definitely the problem. Now quartering is needed because it took me many tries to get it not to bind. In the end, I just got lucky trying various positions and bingo no bind.
> Now it's running great (so far).


At first you said you needed to replace the wheel.
Now you said you replaced the axle.

Did you replace the wheel too?
Or was the wheel OK?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

rkenney said:


> How 'bout that!
> 
> And you didn't need a 500 dollar arbor press and wheel cups?:appl:



Tim the Tool Man would disagree. 

Everyone should have a few of those.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rkenney said:


> How 'bout that!
> 
> And you didn't need a 500 dollar arbor press and wheel cups?:appl:


Gee, I guess quartering was required after all.


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*675 repair*

I know the axle was worn on one end and wasn't holding the wheel tight. It costs two bucks from Olsen's. I had an extra wheel. I used a four inch clamp with some felt for protection and making sure it was all even I pressed the wheel on the new axle.
I got binding a few times and just kept loosening and turning the wheel until I got lucky and found the correct position, so it needs to be right. I guess that's quartering.

My only problem now is I didn't set up the smoke correctly. It smokes great but doesn't puff. I think those metal cups are upside down. Today I'll remove the motor for the 100th time and set it right. It gets easier each time and I realize it all makes sense and everything must be timed to work together.

I've reached level two of 675 repair. It always amazes me when I succeed at this. 
I'm not cocky about this anymore because I had it running a few times before and it locked up again, but this time I think it might hold.

The posts on the forum provide basic information that you need to figure what's wrong. 
Thanks.
I'll let you all know if my bad boy holds up. Funny, when it won't run it's just a piece of junk ready for parts, but when it's chugging down the track it makes you happy.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

You won't need to remove the motor, just the steam chest. Before doing that try moving the "crank" which should move freely. You should feel and see the piston move up and down. It is possible the piston is sticking. It is impossible to install the piston upside down.

Carl


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gee, I guess quartering was required after all.


Don't know how you figure that? He's only replaced one axle wheel set, they have to go back in the same place to prevent linkage bind on either side. The relationship between the two sides is unimportant.

'Course you knew that. For all your complainin' about other people, you just like to argue.:smilie_auslachen:

You already admitted that that cheap, just drive one axle, junk doesn't need to be quartered. Just offset one side from the other.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Newtown Joe said:


> I guess that's quartering.




You had to put the wheels back in the same position, because you only replaced one axle. If it was "quartered" before you started it will be quartered afterwards, but not because the relationship between each side is important, but because you have no choice but to return the wheels you removed to their original position.

If on the other hand the wheels on each side had any other relationship, including their linkage lining up perfectly (zero offset), and you put the wheels on that one axle back on in the same place you removed them, it would run just fine and they wouldn't be 'quartered.'


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*Boiler front*

The other thing I seem to always have a problem with is pushing the boiler front back on. It never just snaps in but needs to be angled and moved around. If it's not right the light flickers or goes out. Good news is the loco is still running great.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The spring clips that hold the boiler front (actually the smoke-box) on are also the electrical 'ground' contacts for the bulb.

Two things you can do:

* first *- make sure the bulb bracket is tight to the boiler front casting (peen the rivet to tighten it up).

*second* - flare the boiler front retainer springs to securely hold the boiler front and make good electrical contact with the boiler casting.

obviously the bulb has to be screwed in tight and the wire good and not frayed.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Newtown Joe said:


> The other thing I seem to always have a problem with is pushing the boiler front back on. It never just snaps in but needs to be angled and moved around. If it's not right the light flickers or goes out. Good news is the loco is still running great.


Joe, check to make sure that you have the smoke crank set in there right too.
Smoke crank picture here,
http://olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/locsua4.pdf


You do have to angle it back into place, other locos you have to do this too.

Loose wire on the light? Bad connection?


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*Smome piston*

Why is it when I see a diagram of a smoke piston it looks like it's connected to the smoke box. Mine is two parts and both are loose? I just placed them loosely at the bottom of the boiler under the smoke box. Am I missing something here?
Oh, and why does it always show a spring in the piston which I don't have?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

675 smoke crank placement:










How it looks with the steam chest assembled:


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## Newtown Joe (Jan 30, 2013)

*Smoke piston*

So it's not actually attached, just looks that way?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Newtown Joe said:


> Why is it when I see a diagram of a smoke piston it looks like it's connected to the smoke box. Mine is two parts and both are loose? I just placed them loosely at the bottom of the boiler under the smoke box. Am I missing something here?


 There is a screw that attaches the smoke assembly to the steam chest, it is visible under the pilot wheels.



> Oh, and why does it always show a spring in the piston which I don't have?


Many did not have the spring. If you replaced the smoke element some of the kits come with a spring some don't. I put springs in the two 675s I have and it did not make a significant difference.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Newtown Joe said:


> So it's not actually attached, just looks that way?


Right most (centered) screw attaches the smoke assembly to the steam chest. Pilot wheels removed:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The spring helps force the piston down. Many don't need it, but some don't get a full stroke without the spring. You can buy them if you don't have one.


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