# Caboose industries ground throws



## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

They don't fit in between the tracks! I bought a handful of them trying to keep costs down in my yard and mainline crossovers for now and i am having trouble getting them in place. Model # 206s for n scale. I cut off the second pin and the throwbar that holds the second pin, as well as the throwbar on the opposite side with the hole in it. Trimmed a tie on the neighboring track and still dont have enough room. The tracks are separated only by the width that isbcreated by 2 opposing Atlas #6 turnouts. Really, just frustrated and need to vent. Probably will get some electrically activated undermount switch machines for this purpose, and move the manual throws to the areas where i have more real estate. I had planned to do the whole layout in ground throws for now to save some $$$, but atbleast i didnt buy enough to take care of the entire track plan at once.

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*ground throws sometimes come in handy?*

the caboose hobby ground throws came to my rescue, at the opening of my yard connected to a series of turnouts to the entrance to my small yard. It's in the center of my train table- layout with in arms reach next to my control panel for my 5'x9' train table layout. Thats why I used the ground throws..... because they are within arms reach forever for now? 
This is in the "N" scale section,It should have been put in the "ho" section. :hah: My mistake.(sorry):dunno:
Regards,tr1


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

can't u use the groundthrows on the outboard side instead of between the 2 mainlines? :dunno:

i know i've done it on ho. sometimes have to use a piece of stiff wire from throw to point tie.


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

cole226 said:


> can't u use the groundthrows on the outboard side instead of between the 2 mainlines? :dunno:
> 
> i know i've done it on ho. sometimes have to use a piece of stiff wire from throw to point tie.


looking back at my build thread/track plan, I see a couple other opportunities I like a little better (not much but a little). I suppose it's a possibility to do what Cole suggested, just more work than I was hoping to do right now. the stiff wire idea, wouldn't I have to burrow through the cork roadbed and lay a piece of tubing to keep the wire taut going that kind of length? that means I have to rip up my mainline. not an option I'd be willing to take right now. I just finished tuning my mains so it's baby butt smooth, no clickety-clacking. don't want to do that again at this stage of the game

if you look at my track plan on the first post of my build thread, you can see my yard ladder parallels my double-track main. the track plan isn't 100% up to date but the critical pieces here, including the spacing/orientation between the ladder and the main hasn't changed from this rendition. Although mains and ladder are already glued down, I could see if I can get more separation between the ladder and the westbound main. I could possibly place the throws between the ladder and main and then outboard of the main on the eastbound side. This option would prevent me from having to pull up the mains, but rather pull up all the ladder turnouts. However I've used a more water-soluble adhesive for the turnouts, whereas the mains I glued down with waterproof stuff. Taking the turnouts up might be easier at this point (turnout replacement is the exact reason I went with standard white glue under the T/Os).


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Options*



irontodd said:


> looking back at my build thread/track plan, I see a couple other opportunities I like a little better (not much but a little). I suppose it's a possibility to do what Cole suggested, just more work than I was hoping to do right now. the stiff wire idea, wouldn't I have to burrow through the cork roadbed and lay a piece of tubing to keep the wire taut going that kind of length? that means I have to rip up my mainline. not an option I'd be willing to take right now. I just finished tuning my mains so it's baby butt smooth, no clickety-clacking. don't want to do that again at this stage of the game
> 
> if you look at my track plan on the first post of my build thread, you can see my yard ladder parallels my double-track main. the track plan isn't 100% up to date but the critical pieces here, including the spacing/orientation between the ladder and the main hasn't changed from this rendition. Although mains and ladder are already glued down, I could see if I can get more separation between the ladder and the westbound main. I could possibly place the throws between the ladder and main and then outboard of the main on the eastbound side. This option would prevent me from having to pull up the mains, but rather pull up all the ladder turnouts. However I've used a more water-soluble adhesive for the turnouts, whereas the mains I glued down with waterproof stuff. Taking the turnouts up might be easier at this point (turnout replacement is the exact reason I went with standard white glue under the T/Os).


irontodd;

There are several things I can think off. First if you want to use the "stiff (music) wire in a tube" method: it may be possible, without tearing up any track. I use greased music wire inside brass tubing, and it works very well. My tubes are under the layout, not on top. However if you prefer mounting them on top, you can drill (horizontally) right through the cork roadbed without taking up track. The end of the tube itself can be made into a crude form of miniature "hole saw" by using a small, modeler's triangular file to cut spaces between the "teeth" of the saw. If this apparatus can be run off past the table edge, you can connect the tube into an electric drill. Brass tube is available in three foot lengths from Amazon.com. That should be enough to reach. It's also possible to bend brass tube into a gentle curve, slip a sharpened, spear-pointed, length of music wire down the tube and let the wire do the drilling. Slow speed, and light forward pressure should be used; and the drilling end of the tube needs to be held down below the ties, so as not to damage the track. 
Much simpler way. If you want to forget the ground throws altogether, and avoid the expense of tortoise, or other electric machines, this method is about as simple and cheap as it gets.
Bend a short length of thin music wire into a bracket shape like this ] You will need a tiny hole in the center of the turnout's throwbar, and another hole about 1/2" away in the center of a tie. One end of the wire "bracket" you just created goes into each hole. The trick is to get the bracket's points very slightly longer than the distance between the holes. This takes plenty of trial and error, but with patience, you'll get just the right length. The bracket then becomes a bi-stable spring. It wont like the center position, but will be happy at either end of its travel. This duplicates the action of the spring built into Peco brand turnouts. A simple flick of your finger will snap the throwbar either left or right and the spring will hold the point against the stock rail.

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Tractionfan you are certainly a helpful gentleman. I tried my hand at the peco syle spring and it seems to work! I used a track nail to drill the hole in the throwbar and tie, and a staple for the spring!https://vimeo.com/198942366

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Ok, first one was beginners luck. A single attempt at a bend and dropped it in place and it just worked. The last 30 minutes has been fiddling with the second and so far to no avail. 

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Don't know if it was mentioned, but with
Peco turnouts you can simply use your fingers
to flip the points and the spring will lock the
points in place. One big modular layout that
is shown in most N. Florida train shows uses
that feature. They have no remotes or ground
throws.

Don


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Hey irontodd. I also considered the Caboose throws for my N Scale layout but finally decided against them due to prototypical reasons - I read from various sources that they just looked too big for N Scale and were a real eyesore. Some care about that, some don't - I was one who did care. Luckily I did care, because now reading about your plight with fitting them between the tracks I know I would have had the same problems as you in many cases.

I deferred to the music wire-in-brass tube method as well. It was the best DIY solution I could come up with to keep costs down. Here's a picture for reference:









By bending the wire to put the spring action at the DPDT switch, it allows more forgiveness on bending the wire to get it right vs. having to make the proper spring bend at the track.

What I did was build extended wood panels out from the table and flush with the top, and drilled the holes / squares for the DPDT switches in those extended panels.

If you can't get a drill bit down low enough to get through the cork, you can use an exacto knife to cut out a section between the sleepers and then tweezers to remove the cut piece. That way you won't need to rip up any existing track.

For turnouts more in the middle of the table or on elevated ground, I built "local" mini versions of this system right into the foam next to the throw bar using paper clips instead:


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

I ended up borking the throwbar on a turnout trying to drill thru it, and also breaking a factor soldered connection, so I decided I didn't want to risk damaging more turnouts in the same manner. I peeled back my yard ladder, spaced it over a tad and laid it back down. Doesnt look all that bad, though i lost about an inch on each yard track in doing so. My tolerances for stock in the yard werent that tight so i should be ok

























mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Nice... great solution.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Track nail?*



irontodd said:


> Tractionfan you are certainly a helpful gentleman. I tried my hand at the peco syle spring and it seems to work! I used a track nail to drill the hole in the throwbar and tie, and a staple for the spring!https://vimeo.com/198942366
> 
> mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


irontodd;

I saw this and your later post in this thread, saying that you had "borked up a throwbar" trying to drill a hole. Well, if you were trying to drill a hole in an Atlas turnout's flimsy throwbar with a track nail ( and I'm guessing, no backing underneath) I'm not surprised that it was damaged. Still, you certainly have my sympathy. No one likes a broken turnout! (that's one reason I build my own as strong as possible.) 
You are certainly welcome for any help I was able to give you. That's a big part of what we do here on the forum. I hope I did not lead you into drilling with a track nail by my recommendations of drilling soft cork roadbed with sharpened tube or wire. I would only drill holes in a throwbar or tie using miniature drill bits, in a pin vise, and with a flat piece of brass, or strip wood, under the throwbar to back it up during the drilling operation. 
I'm glad you were able to fix your own problem, even though it meant pulling up your track; whatever works.
If by chance you ever want to try the spring idea again, in addition to better drilling tools, and techniques, I would suggest making the spring slightly longer, and putting a bigger bend in it. You can't make it big enough to snag a passing rail car, but below that limit, straightening out the bend a bit makes the spring slightly longer, and vise versa, this gives you some degree of adjustment to get the length just right. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Traction fan, I only fault myself, I should know better than to do what I did but I don't yet have a pin vise and really wanted to get the turnouts working. None of your other commentary led me to make that mistake. Being anxious just got the best of me. Anyways it turns out I like the look of the extra space! One day I will learn to build my own turnouts, since I am not at that level yet I went with atlas due to the tighter geometry. Pecos didn't fit what I wanted to do in the space I have. Lessons learned though (and I know this in home and auto repair) make sure you have the right tools and the right parts, also don't cram as much track in as you think you can, make sure you have room for scenery (and operating details) before you get going.
Thanks for the advice, I do appreciate it, and your sympathy though not necessary.

Eastern Plains - Holyoke, Idalia and Towner (EPHIT) Branch build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Excellent start!*



irontodd said:


> Traction fan, I only fault myself, I should know better than to do what I did but I don't yet have a pin vise and really wanted to get the turnouts working. None of your other commentary led me to make that mistake. Being anxious just got the best of me. Anyways it turns out I like the look of the extra space! One day I will learn to build my own turnouts, since I am not at that level yet I went with atlas due to the tighter geometry. Pecos didn't fit what I wanted to do in the space I have. Lessons learned though (and I know this in home and auto repair) make sure you have the right tools and the right parts, also don't cram as much track in as you think you can, make sure you have room for scenery (and operating details) before you get going.
> Thanks for the advice, I do appreciate it, and your sympathy though not necessary.
> 
> Eastern Plains - Holyoke, Idalia and Towner (EPHIT) Branch build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


 irontodd;

No worries! I just didn't want to sound like I was talking down to you. I've been at this hobby for a long time and I may tend to pontificate a bit. I just checked out your track plan, photos and video. It looks like you have been doing this a long time too! Great start. You may want to look at your amount of track. What some folks consider "cramming in as much track as you can" others might see as "wide open spaces." We never have enough room for all the features we want. Also the space-gobbling return loops needed for continuous running can be "scenically challenging." You just can't fit all that much inside them, and it can be hard to disguise their essentially "round and round the little train goes" appearance. One good way of minimizing both problems is to divide the layout down the middle with a double-sided backdrop, or hill high enough to restrict the view to one side at a time. The N-scale club I used to belong to (I moved) had many turn-back curves along their twelve scale mile main line, but the terrain separated the scenes so effectively that you really seamed to be traveling from one town to another, rather than around a loop. Of course this required people aisles on both sides of the bench-work. I don't know if that's practical for you, or not. If you haven't already thought about access to the "back" side of your layout, it's a good idea to do so. Reaching the complex trackwork back there will be necessary! If the railroad is going to butt up against a wall, you might want to put large casters on the legs so you can easily move it out when you need to. If you are lucky enough to have plenty of space (I'm not!) then creating separate scenes becomes possible.
As for turnouts, building your own is much, much, cheaper in dollars; but eats up huge amounts of time. Besides saving money, it also lets you build whatever size and shape you need, and you can make them strong enough to last practically forever. The same cannot be said for Atlas! In fact about all I can say in their favor is that the N-scale ones are better than the HO-scale ones ("snap switch" in both cases.) and they're cheap (sadly in both senses of the word.) Peco is the best commercial turnout available in my, and a host of other modelers, opinion. You might consider gradually switching over to them, both despite, and because, they aren't the same shape as the Atlas ones. Atlas "snap switch" turnouts contain a curve. (a generous 19" radius for N-scale, a tight and crooked 18" radius in HO-scale.) The N-scale 19" radius curve can be a help when it's used as an easement into a tighter curve like your 15" r. industrial curves. It can also be a potential problem when you build a siding parallel to the main, or some arrangements of parallel yard tracks. The former inevitably contains a reverse curve, one of the main culprits in derailments. The yard lead doesn't have to include reverse curves, but often does.
Peco, Walthers, Micro Engineering, and most prototype, turnouts don't contain any curves. One straight track diverges from another straight track at an angle. When they are used to access a parallel track, the train moves from straight track onto one direction of curve. In the Atlas set up, the train moves from, say a left curve, (in the turnout itself) directly into a right curve.(needed to get the side track parallel to the main.) This is more severe in the HO version than the N version, but it exists in both. Backing a string of cars through a reverse curve can work, but it puts forces on the trucks and couplers that can cause derailments. Of course it's your choice, but you may want to consider rearranging your track to use the more reliable Peco turnouts. 

again, great start;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

This is just a test please ignore. http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=96530&highlight=scratchbuild+turnouts


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## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

Some of the comments here are starting to get a little off topic but i will address those in my bild thread.

mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*You're right*



irontodd said:


> Some of the comments here are starting to get a little off topic but i will address those in my bild thread.
> 
> mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


 irontodd;

You're right. I did go wandering way off the original topic! 
Sorry;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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