# Track gauges



## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

I plan on using Peco Code 55 Flex track. As I am laying it I would like to periodically check and verify that the track gauge stays correct, especially on curves. I would like to use Micro Engineering's Code 55 gauge, part # 42-109.

Does anyone see any issues with either using ME's gauge on Peco track or any issues with the Peco track really being code 70, but recessed into the ties to create Code 55?  Maybe dumb questions, but hell, I'm a newbie. 

Thanx.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Gages*



CV-62 said:


> I plan on using Peco Code 55 Flex track. As I am laying it I would like to periodically check and verify that the track gauge stays correct, especially on curves. I would like to use Micro Engineering's Code 55 gauge, part # 42-109.
> 
> Does anyone see any issues with either using ME's gauge on Peco track or any issues with the Peco track really being code 70, but recessed into the ties to create Code 55? Maybe dumb questions, but hell, I'm a newbie.
> 
> Thanx.


CV-62;

You may need to order a Micro Engineering code 70 gage if the Peco track really is code 70. The code 70 rail may have a wider head than real code 55. If it does then the code 55 gage may not fit onto the code 70 rail. The Peco system of recessing the rails down into their deep plastic tie strip makes for a very strong piece of track. Do you plan on using Peco turnouts too? They are excellent quality, and practically never cause derailments.

I use Micro Engineering code 55 flex track because of it's excellent general quality, and super-realistic appearance; Of course, their code 55 gage fits their code 55 rail.
Don't forget to also get the best track gage, an NMRA standards gage. Every model railroad should have one of those. 

Don't sweat "dumb" questions. If you had sense enough to ask it, it's not dumb. I'm no newbie, but I really don't know the answer to your question for certain.

have fun;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

traction fan said:


> CV-62;
> 
> You may need to order a Micro Engineering code 70 gage if the Peco track really is code 70. The code 70 rail may have a wider head than real code 55. If it does then the code 55 gage may not fit onto the code 70 rail. The Peco system of recessing the rails down into their deep plastic tie strip makes for a very strong piece of track. Do you plan on using Peco turnouts too? They are excellent quality, and practically never cause derailments.
> 
> ...


Aha, I wondered about that Code 55 v Code 70 thing. Yeah, not sure either about the width so I shall go with the code 70 gauge then.

I'll tell you, I am very impressed with the ME track, but their turnout limitations are a bit of a turnoff for me. I love that ME in made in America. Maybe I need to do some research on mixing ME track with Peco turnouts and and how well that works. Tony's trains sells both and I shall be paying them a vist maybe this week. 

Most likely in the end I shall settle on Peco track and turnouts pending any further revelations. 

Thanx


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Good choices*



CV-62 said:


> Aha, I wondered about that Code 55 v Code 70 thing. Yeah, not sure either about the width so I shall go with the code 70 gauge then.
> 
> I'll tell you, I am very impressed with the ME track, but their turnout limitations are a bit of a turnoff for me. I love that ME in made in America. Maybe I need to do some research on mixing ME track with Peco turnouts and and how well that works. Tony's trains sells both and I shall be paying them a vist maybe this week.
> 
> ...


 CV-62;

Since both Peco, and Micro Engineering, are very high quality, you can't really go wrong with either track. Peco has the advantage in strength, and Micro Engineering in looks. Yes, Micro Engineering makes only #6 right and #6 left turnouts. I make my own turnouts, so I have not used, (or even seen except in videos) a Micro Engineering turnout. I do have a few Pecos that I picked up cheap. They work very well. The Micro Engineering turnouts look as realistic as the M-E flex track. Like the Pecos, Micro Engineering turnouts have the built-in spring that holds the point against the stock rail. A nice feature that means you can operate either brand manually, saving the cost of a switch machine. For remote turnouts that you can't reach, you would need a Tortoise or similar for the M-E turnout, and Peco's own twin-coil machine, or a Tortoise for the Peco turnouts. Or, if you don't want to spend $18 extra per turnout on switch machines, you could just build my $5 one, described below.  

The comments on Micro Engineering turnouts, that I've found on this forum about their reliability have all been very positive. One video showed a guy fixing something on his M-E turnouts that is common to all commercial turnouts, regardless of brand. The flangeways both at the frog, and at the guard rails, are too wide. I think all the manufacturers do this to accommodate slightly out of gage wheels. The guy was having problems with one of his locomotives derailing on his M-E turnouts. Gluing a couple of plastic shims in the flangeways solved the problem. At the end he said he liked the Micro Engineering turnouts and would by more. 

One other thing about M-E flex track. It has very fine spike detail and that means you need to be a little careful about not pushing sideways or pulling up on the rails forcefully as you fit them. Those tiny spikes can break under any sort of rough treatment. 

The limited variety of M-E turnouts shouldn't be a game killer. What else beyond a right, and a left, do you really need on most layouts? Fitting one brand of track to another brand isn't all that difficult, Ive done it even with different rail codes joining M-E code 55 to Atlas code 80. This also means you could use different brands of turnouts. If you had M-E turnouts and needed wye turnouts, or curved turnouts, those could be Peco. 

Joining Peco to anything else may require some adaptation/filing, because of the two rail bases it has. Should be easy enough though.

Have fun:

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment Introductory letter for $5 switch machine.pdf


View attachment Assembly instructions for $5 switch machine..pdf


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

traction fan said:


> CV-62;
> 
> Since both Peco, and Micro Engineering, are very high quality, you can't really go wrong with either track. Peco has the advantage in strength, and Micro Engineering in looks. Yes, Micro Engineering makes only #6 right and #6 left turnouts. I make my own turnouts, so I have not used, (or even seen except in videos) a Micro Engineering turnout. I do have a few Pecos that I picked up cheap. They work very well. The Micro Engineering turnouts look as realistic as the M-E flex track. Like the Pecos, Micro Engineering turnouts have the built-in spring that holds the point against the stock rail. A nice feature that means you can operate either brand manually, saving the cost of a switch machine. For remote turnouts that you can't reach, you would need a Tortoise or similar for the M-E turnout, and Peco's own twin-coil machine, or a Tortoise for the Peco turnouts. Or, if you don't want to spend $18 extra per turnout on switch machines, you could just build my $5 one, described below.
> 
> ...


Point taken. My early sketches on the layout show only basic turnouts. If I go with Peco, I would prolly use a few tighter ones deep the yard, but not even sure about that yet. Thank you for all the info. Cheers.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Yard turnouts*



CV-62 said:


> Point taken. My early sketches on the layout show only basic turnouts. If I go with Peco, I would prolly use a few tighter ones deep the yard, but not even sure about that yet. Thank you for all the info. Cheers.


CV-62;

I suggest you re-think the idea of putting tighter turnouts in the yard. I'm assuming by "tighter" you mean lower frog number turnouts where the two routes split apart more quickly. If you mean cut up turnouts that reduce the overall length of the yard ladder, that's another matter. 

The turnouts in a yard, need to be the easiest to travel through, not the hardest. In a yard, we routinely do one of the most demanding maneuvers and the most likely to cause derailments on the whole railroad: that is backing a string of cars into a siding. This pushing of cars through a string of turnouts puts maximum stress on couplers and wheels. If a derailment is going to happen, the yard entrance is one of the most likely places for it. Many modelers, and even some published track plans, make things even worse by introducing multiple reverse curves in the way they layout the turnouts that form a yard throat. 

Remember, simplicity yields reliability. Complexity often yields problems. My yard throat is what's called a "simple ladder." The five turnouts are all right-hand turnouts with the straight routes connected to form one long straight line. A train never has to negotiate more than one diverging route or curve, no matter which of the six tracks it's being pushed backwards into. I did cut, and overlap, the turnouts to fit the yard into my small space. This is the same basic idea as Micro Engineering's new "Yard ladder" set of #5 turnouts in HO-scale. Since I'm an N-scaler, I built my own compressed yard ladder using code 55 rail, and PC ties. . 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

Hmmm, interesting. Let me clarify my preliminary plans a bit and see what you think. As always, I am open, to any and all opinions. I am NOT easily offended and have very broad shoulders. LOL.

My plan is to use the Peco "Medium" size turnouts on the main line. It is my understanding that these are equal to a 18" radius which is going to be the minimum radius I have on a main line. It is also my understanding that Peco uses only #6 frogs in all their turnouts.

For the ladder I was entertaining the thought of using the Peco "small" turnouts which as i understand are equal to 12" radius.

My thought here is the interesting fact that all peco turnouts have that diverging curve after the frog along with that amazing feature of the #6 frog regardless of size. Now mind you, all my info on this is NOT real world, but via Mr. Bing Search, my friend. 

One note worth mentioning, all my railroad plans call for a post WW2 to early 1970's era layout. Thus my plans call for 40' Pullman standard box cars, 36' 2 bay hoppers and the like. 4 axle diesels and maybe a small 2-6-2 steamer down the road the Central Vermont ran up to the early 50's. My branch line railroad ran GE SW1's since 1939. Yep, spent time doing historical research. LOL.

As always, thank you for your insightful opinions and advice. Much appreciated.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Peco Turnouts*



CV-62 said:


> Hmmm, interesting. Let me clarify my preliminary plans a bit and see what you think. As always, I am open, to any and all opinions. I am NOT easily offended and have very broad shoulders. LOL.
> 
> My plan is to use the Peco "Medium" size turnouts on the main line. It is my understanding that these are equal to a 18" radius which is going to be the minimum radius I have on a main line. It is also my understanding that Peco uses only #6 frogs in all their turnouts.
> 
> ...


CV-62;

Yes Peco markets their turnouts in "Small, Medium, and Large" sizes, rather than the more familiar #4, #6, #8, Etc. of most other brands. I didn't know about the #6 frog in all three sizes, see you taught me something.  The few Peco turnouts I have don't have a truly "curved" diverging route, like the Atlas Snap Track turnouts do. (19" radius) Rather the diverging route is straight, so is the main route, and both are very short beyond the frog. You may be confusing the very slightly curved point rails used for the diverging route. Real turnouts, and most model ones, have two straight routes that diverge from each other at the angle of the frog number. Thus a #4 splits the two routes more sharply than a #6 does. There are exceptions. The Atlas snap switch, and curved turnouts.

Thanks for the information on what your minimum radius will be, and the fact that you will be running short wheelbase equipment. That helps me picture what you have in mind a little. What shape and size layout were you thinking of? That 18" minimum radius, (while notoriously tight for HO-scale), is an excellent broad curve in N-scale. :thumbsup: It should easily handle any N-scale equipment. (The HO-scale equivalent curve would be 36" radius )

About that "12" radius equivalent" inside the Peco "small" turnout. First, since I make my own turnouts, I don't know enough about Pecos to know if the 12" is correct, or not. For this discussion I'm assuming that it is.

Second, while most N-scale equipment is advertised as (THEORETICALLY) being capable of negotiating a 9-3/4" radius curve, the real world fact is that some N-scale rolling stock, and especially some locomotives, simply can't do that, at least with any real degree of reliability.
The next step up the sectional curved track line is 11" radius. Thinking anything N-scale could use that 11" curve, and being what I thought at the time was conservative in my track planning, I initially adopted a 12" minimum radius for my layout. Things worked OK, until I bought two Kato Mikado 2-8-2 steam locomotives. They were advertised as having a minimum radius capability of 11".
Well they didn't stay on 12" radius curves all that well. I ended up ripping out a lot of curved track and going to a 16" minimum radius.

The points here are; 

1) Don't use a manufacturer's advertised claims to design a layout. They can be, "overly optimistic", or just plain wrong. Do some tests yourself, with your trains, backing up through some flex track. You can vary the radius, and find out what the real minimum radius that your trains actually can handle repeatedly and reliably, rather than "maybe sometimes." :dunno: 

2) It never hurts to be conservative when planning track arrangements. Trying to squeeze things down as much as you can will likely lead to a major "Oh poop*!!! moment, far into the construction phase, and you'll end up tearing out, and re -doing things.

(* family forum terminology , but you can translate!) 

3) Quality turnouts, like Peco, or Micro Engineering, don't come cheap. If it turns out that during one of those difficult backing movements, things start coming off the rails, re-buying turnouts will be expensive as well as embarrassing.

4) Yes we all end up cheating a little here and there to fit into our always-too-small available space. Just don't do any cheating you don't absolutely have to, and even then do as little, and as mild a dose of, cheating as possible.

My recommendation for your turnouts both mainline and yard is use #6 Micro Engineering, or "medium" Peco. They don't take up all that much more room than the "small" Pecos do. Also I highly recommend coping my simple yard ladder. However many #6 turnouts you can fit, in a straight line, with only one diverging route per yard track, and NO REVERSE CURVES.
You can shorten each turnout a little, if necessary, to make the ladder fit. You need to keep the points, the frog, & guard rails, and a little extra protruding rail for the joiners, but everything outside of that is optional.
Avoid things like compound ladders and the reverse curve formed by exiting a turnout and then curving right back the other way to get to the next parallel track. Rather lay the ladder out on a diagonal, determined by the frog angle. Then each track can branch off from the straight ladder, and the tracks will be parallel to each other.

Regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

1. Yes, I was confusing the point rails with those short rails after the frog. My bad.

2. Purchased some track and turnouts today from Tony's. Their store has a lot of stuff. I have decided to go with Peco Medium Radius turnouts with UniFrog. My plan to to spend some time testing various setups on a tabletop with my Atlas S2 and NCE controller as well as experimenting with various inclines to determine the most my little engine can handle.

3. I now think I have a handle on your simple ladder v. compound ladders in the yard. I will go with the simple ladder. Great idea.

My Atlas Gold S2 with Central Vermont Livery and my NCE ProCab arrived today just in time for my 70th Birthday, thanks entirely to my wife of 44 years so getting closer by the day but still much to study and understand. I am only in a hurry to do things right the first time. I only like surprises on Xmas and my birthday and today was one of those days. 

As always, thank you.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Old Fart!*



CV-62 said:


> 1. Yes, I was confusing the point rails with those short rails after the frog. My bad.
> 
> 2. Purchased some track and turnouts today from Tony's. Their store has a lot of stuff. I have decided to go with Peco Medium Radius turnouts with UniFrog. My plan to to spend some time testing various setups on a tabletop with my Atlas S2 and NCE controller as well as experimenting with various inclines to determine the most my little engine can handle.
> 
> ...


CV-62;

Happy 70th birthday! I'm the same age. :smilie_auslachen:

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

traction fan said:


> CV-62;
> 
> Happy 70th birthday!* I'm the same age.* :smilie_auslachen:
> 
> ...


Thank you. Septuagenarians Rule!! :appl:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Unifrog turnouts*



CV-62 said:


> 1. Yes, I was confusing the point rails with those short rails after the frog. My bad.
> 
> 2. Purchased some track and turnouts today from Tony's. Their store has a lot of stuff. I have decided to go with Peco Medium Radius turnouts with UniFrog. My plan to to spend some time testing various setups on a tabletop with my Atlas S2 and NCE controller as well as experimenting with various inclines to determine the most my little engine can handle.
> 
> ...


CV-62;

Are the Peco Unifrog turnouts available now? I had read that they were in development, but not on the market yet. The Peco medium turnouts, and NCE powercab, are both excellent choices.

The new Unifrog, as you may know, is intended to replace both the current Insulfrog, and Electrofrog, turnouts, and has several wiring options.
There has been lots of discussion here regarding "DCC friendly turnouts." While DCC can work well with any turnout, and a lot of the advertising about "DCC friendly" is misleading,and exaggerated; there is a particular option for those Unifrogs, that I'm going to recommend.

There is something called an "Isolated frog." (Notice I say "Isolated", not "insulated.") [There's overlap, and confusion, between these two terms.] An Insulated frog is simply a plastic frog that you'd find on an Atlas turnout, or Peco's "Insulfrog."

An Isolated frog is typically a metal frog that is electrically isolated from every other rail in the turnout. Isolated frogs have the option of being powered by connecting a wire to the frog. I build my turnouts this way, and I recommend you use that option on your Unifrogs. A turnout with an isolated, and powered, frog like this; is what is sometimes marketed as a "DCC friendly turnout." These "DCC friendly" turnouts also have one other electrical feature. The two point rails are insulated from each other, and each point rail is connected to the nearest stock rail. This arrangement prevents a metal wheel from shorting the typically opposite polarity point and stock rails found in many turnouts. With this option, both these nearby rails are the same polarity. 
Such shorts are rare, and very brief. With DC they didn't matter since the slow-acting circuit breaker in a typical DC power pack wouldn't have time to react. DCC however, uses very high speed circuit breakers. The brief short circuit could easily trip fast-acting DCC breaker. 

Another advantage of an isolated, and powered, frog; is that since it is powered, it will provide uninterrupted power to a locomotive all the way through the turnout. This is a "nice-to-have" feature, but most locos these days have all-wheel electrical pickup and therefore wouldn't actually need the powered frog. Older locos which picked up on only a few wheels, especially short switcher types, might stall on an unpowered frog.
By now, you probably know that I tend to be very conservative in my approach to this hobby, and I'm also a firm believer in "Murphy's Law." If something will make the trains run more reliably, or even might, just possibly, help some trains run more reliably; then I'm all for it!

A powered frog needs to change polarity when the turnout is set to a different route. I do this with an external micro-switch triggered by the movement of the throwbar and points. The clever folks at Peco may have included contacts for this task in their new Unifrogs. Even if they didn't wiring the common terminal of a micro-switch to the frog, the normally open terminal to one stock rail and the normally closed terminal to the opposite stock rail; isn't difficult at all.

I think I've already sent you a bunch of files, including this one. I'm attaching a copy just in case I didn't. It explains the various, and often confusing, types of turnout frogs.

Regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment All AboutTurnouts.pdf


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

Yes, the UniFrog Medium turnouts are available now and on shelf at Tony's Trains in code 55. Not sure on availability in other codes. 

My next step is to set up the turnout and see how my diesels run through them operating in stock config. The Atlas claims the S2 has 8 wheel pickup. If that is the case, then the wheelbase of the S2 is much longer then the length of the insulated frog area so in *"theory"* there should be no problem. In theory, before Murphy arrives.

Nothing wrong with being conservative and always ready for Murphy. He always tends to show up at the most inconvenient time.


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## bewhole (Dec 31, 2016)

traction fan
Yes they are out but they only have one size right now. They have the SL-U395F Medium Right hand and left hand. I have one but have not used it yet so I can not tell you if it works better or worse. CV-62 mentioned Tony's trains( I had forgot about them) so I went and ordered more from them. So we shall see how it goes.
CV-62 you are going to love working with the peco flex track so much easier to work with than the sectional track.(You can cut it to the size you want)


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

bewhole said:


> traction fan
> Yes they are out but they only have one size right now. They have the SL-U395F Medium Right hand and left hand. I have one but have not used it yet so I can not tell you if it works better or worse. CV-62 mentioned Tony's trains( I had forgot about them) so I went and ordered more from them. So we shall see how it goes.
> CV-62 you are going to love working with the peco flex track so much easier to work with than the sectional track.(You can cut it to the size you want)


When I started my research on model railroading, one of the first things I checked was what do most of the pros do. Well, the pros use flex track and the debate rages on between ME and Peco. I have to say, being a purist and very fussy I was not sure about the tie spacing thingy on the Peco track but I have to say it looked a lot worse on the computer monitor then it does in person. 

Time will tell. I am still very much in the R&D stage. Thank you for your input.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*All wheel pickup*



CV-62 said:


> Yes, the UniFrog Medium turnouts are available now and on shelf at Tony's Trains in code 55. Not sure on availability in other codes.
> 
> My next step is to set up the turnout and see how my diesels run through them operating in stock config. The Atlas claims the S2 has 8 wheel pickup. If that is the case, then the wheelbase of the S2 is much longer then the length of the insulated frog area so in *"theory"* there should be no problem. In theory, before Murphy arrives.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being conservative and always ready for Murphy. He always tends to show up at the most inconvenient time.


 CV-62;

Your new loco with all wheel pickup should glide smoothly through the turnout, even if it is set up as an "Insulfrog" from the factory. When you actually start laying track permanently I still stand by my recommendation for the isolated, powered frog and the "DCC friendly" option. You may choose not to do that of course, its your railroad, and if your wheels are all gaged correctly you might not have the short circuit I told you about.

Today I installed a pair of my own "DCC friendly" type turnouts. Ah the joy of under-the-layout work with my old arthritic, partially disabled body! hwell: 

The plan is to have all the motors, electric switches, etc, up front and accessible like the Cedar Falls section in the photos. BUT, I still have to install the linkages, and the few wires underneath, and out to the front of this other section. The Cedar Falls setup works fine. Just turn one dial to the track you want, and all the necessary turnouts line up for that route automatically. I want to do this to the whole railroad, one section at a time. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

traction fan said:


> CV-62;
> 
> Your new loco with all wheel pickup should glide smoothly through the turnout, even if it is set up as an "Insulfrog" from the factory. When you actually start laying track permanently I still stand by my recommendation for the isolated, powered frog and the "DCC friendly" option. You may choose not to do that of course, its your railroad, and if your wheels are all gaged correctly you might not have the short circuit I told you about.
> 
> ...


I am only going with the Peco UniFrog turnout solution. That will give me the greatest flexibility going forward. If my current crop of locos tests and work fine with no issues on non powered frogs even at very slow speed, one never knows what the future may hold. At the very least, to start, I would run all the wires from the UniFrogs to an easily accessible central location toward the front of the table like you have. 

At that point in the future if I start to have issues, then I have options like Hex Frog Juicers. They are an added expense, but if I am reading things correctly they simplify things greatly and I have obsessions with keeping things simple. 

Those Juicers add about $13 bucks to the cost of each turnout if you buy the six turnout ones, but my plan would be to only use them as needed, if needed. Good quality toggle switches are not cheap either. 

My years in the US Navy taught me to always ferret out as many potential problems beforehand and be ready with two solutions as the sitrep demands. 

As always thank you for your time and information. I hope others here have learning as much from this thread as I have.


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

OK, first test with my new loco running through a Peco Unifrog medium turnout. This is a bench test.

Using the Unifrog as an InsulFrog with the loco on speed 1 there were sputters and some stalls. Not really good smooth operation until speed 8 or so.

If I power the frog by touching the wire to the proper phase I get much smoother operation on speed 1. No stalls, but a few jerks but not bad at all. So, it does appear that in ElectroFrog mode, operation is much smoother. 

Anyones opinion on my findings would be appreciated. It does appear that very slow operation with short wheelbase locos will benefit but energizing the frog.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*You can't beat real world testingl*



CV-62 said:


> OK, first test with my new loco running through a Peco Unifrog medium turnout. This is a bench test.
> 
> Using the Unifrog as an InsulFrog with the loco on speed 1 there were sputters and some stalls. Not really good smooth operation until speed 8 or so.
> 
> ...


CV-62;

Rather than some cheesy and rude "I told you so" nonsense, (I wouldn't do that.) I must say I'm a bit surprised by the result of your experiment. Normally an all wheel pickup locomotive runs quite smoothly through a plastic frog turnout without any stutter at all. This is because while the loco's front truck is on the dead frog, the rear truck is still on the live rails further back. The only locomotives that would have a serious electrical problem getting through a dead frog are typically older designs that Do Not have all wheel pickup.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to check that all the wheels, and the track, are clean. Since your new loco seems to be behaving like it does not pickup power from all the wheels, here's a simple test. Turn on the track power at a low setting and set only the rear truck on the rails. The loco should run smoothly, with no stuttering. If that works, try the same procedure with only the front truck on the rails. Again it should run smoothly.

That brings up the advantage of the powered frog option. even if dirt, or some other problem, interrupts the normal flow of electricity, the frog acts as a backup. Electrically, it means that all the wheels are able to pick up power all the time, as the loco passes through the turnout. It's redundant, but often redundancy yields extra reliability. Aircraft, for example, have all sorts of redundant features built in, just in case the normal system fails. Of course a stutter or stall by a model train is hardly the matter of life or death that a malfunction in an airliner could become. Our "worst case scenario" is a little annoyance. 

Try the test and cleaning. That may resolve the stuttering issue. If for some weird reason it doesn't, the powered frog option is always there. By the way, in your last post you mentioned frog juicers, and TOGGLE switches? as possible extra costs involved in using a powered frog. I get the frog juicers, that's what they're for, but what did you plan to do with the toggle switches?

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

traction fan said:


> CV-62;
> 
> Rather than some cheesy and rude "I told you so" nonsense, (I wouldn't do that.) I must say I'm a bit surprised by the result of your experiment. Normally an all wheel pickup flows through a plastic frog turnout without any stutter at all. This is because While the loco's front truck is on the dead frog, the rear truck is still on the live rails further back. The only locomotives that would have a serious electrical problem getting through a dead frog are typically older designs that Do Not have all wheel pickup.
> If you haven't already done so, you might want to check that all the wheels, and the track, are clean. Since your new loco seems to be behaving like it does not pickup power from all the wheels, here's a simple test. Turn on the track power at a low setting and set only the rear truck on the rails. The loco should run smoothly, with no stuttering. If that works, try the same procedure with only the front truck on the rails. Again it should run smoothly.
> ...


OK, I did the test. Not all wheel drive but 2 truck drive  As you suggested I put one set of trucks on the rails at a time and it worked both ways so I would say everything is copasetic in that dept. At first I set just on set of wheels fron each truck on the track and nothing happened. Once I set the whole truck on, voila. Turned it around and same thing. Power. Thank you for mentioning that. No issues with the loco, it seems. 

Cleaning the wheels helped a lot but powering the frog is what allows the loco to go through the turnout at speed 1 with no issues. 

I now have included the Frog Juicer on the "must have" list. I may not need them on any turnouts on the mainlines as the loco does not seem to have any issues over speed 4 or so once I cleaned the wheels. 

The toggle switch I was referring to is a SPDT switch some use to MANUALLY change the phase of the frog. One must rely on memory to do this every time the turnout changes direction. Not my favorite way.

Next trip to Tony's I shall pick up a stick of ME track and a turnout and see how that track performs. The R&D continues. LOL


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Toggle switches II*



CV-62 said:


> OK, I did the test. Not all wheel drive but 2 truck drive  As you suggested I put one set of trucks on the rails at a time and it worked both ways so I would say everything is copasetic in that dept. At first I set just on set of wheels fron each truck on the track and nothing happened. Once I set the whole truck on, voila. Turned it around and same thing. Power. Thank you for mentioning that. No issues with the loco, it seems.
> 
> Cleaning the wheels helped a lot but powering the frog is what allows the loco to go through the turnout at speed 1 with no issues.
> 
> ...


CV62;

That "two truck, but not all wheel," pickup business sounds very weird, for a new production locomotive. If a loco was made in say the last ten years or so, and it has eight wheels, it would be rather peculiar for it not to pickup power on all eight. What brand is your new loco?
There is another, optional, test that would perhaps, confirm your findings about power pickup.
[I think it would be a bit difficult to get one "wheelset" (two wheels at opposite ends of the same axle) in positive contact with the rails, by itself.]

If you want, you could set the loco upside down, and try running it with two wires clipped to a nine-volt battery. (This protects your DCC controller). Holding the pair of wires, with one on each of the wheels, one wheelset at a time, would show how many pick up power, and how many, if any, do not.
A tool that would be handy for both this test, and a bunch of other maintenance chores, is a locomotive cradle. (see photos) Mine is made of three pieces of wood built into a channel shape. Its lined with a piece of felt fabric to protect the model. As you can see, it can also be used to hold any structure with a peaked roof. 

Yes, I thought that might be what you had in mind for the toggle switches. Then again, I kinda couldn't believe that you were actually considering manually changing frog polarity. I've never heard of anyone doing it that way, though it would obviously work electrically, it would be a major "P.I.T.A. to say the least! 
I use micro-switches, which are automatically operated by the mechanism that moves the points. The micro-switch does the same job as a frog juicer but electro-mechanically, rather than electronically. The frog juicer sounds like a neat little gadget though, it will certainly do the job for you. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

OK, first of all my bad. I went back and ran the test again and this time I did a better job. The Atlas S2 loco does indeed pick up power on each set of two wheels like you are saying it should. I was just not being patient enough. With this 8 wheel pickup, for the life of me, I have no idea why I am getting that slight jerk going through the turnout in insulated frog mode at very slow speed. Maybe a call to Atlas customer service is needed. 

Could the loco wheel gauge be off from the factory. There is some side to side "slop" when the loco is sitting on the rails but I figured that was normal. I have no gauges to measure it. Maybe I need some. 

I did not know one could run a bench test on these DCC equipped locos using a 9V battery. That is good to know I shall endeavor to remember that. 

There is a youtube video somewhere of a guy who flips a toggle switch to change direction of a turnout and then flips a second toggle switch to change the phasing. Works for him and a lot less then $13 bucks per turnout to finance the Six turnout Juicer.  I like the juicer because I will be manually changing the turnouts in the yard and manually decoupling. I have to do something productive besides just sitting on my duff pushing buttons. :smilie_auslachen:

I think next time I make a pilgrimage to Tony's Trains I shall pick up a Peco ElectroFrog turnout and do some bench testing on it so I can see familiarize myself with it. 

I am getting better with the ins and outs of the NCE Power Cab and I am very impressed with it. I wish they would modernize it a bit with a slightly larger OLED screen. Aesthetic wise it seems to be stuck in the 1990's but performance wise it is excellent. I know, picky, picky, picky. 

Cheers mate and as always thank you for you input and have a great day. BTW, I like that covered bridge.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Some answers*



CV-62 said:


> OK, first of all my bad. I went back and ran the test again and this time I did a better job. The Atlas S2 loco does indeed pick up power on each set of two wheels like you are saying it should. I was just not being patient enough. With this 8 wheel pickup, for the life of me, I have no idea why I am getting that slight jerk going through the turnout in insulated frog mode at very slow speed. Maybe a call to Atlas customer service is needed.
> 
> Could the loco wheel gauge be off from the factory. There is some side to side "slop" when the loco is sitting on the rails but I figured that was normal. I have no gauges to measure it. Maybe I need some.
> 
> ...


CV-62;

Several questions in your most recent post above. I'll try to answer them. Yes, your locomotive could indeed have out of gage wheels from the factory. I won't say it's common, but it does happen. Your locomotive is an Atlas S2 is that right? Some Atlas locomotives, or at least the mechanisms in them, are actually made by the Japanese company Kato. You might look at the bottom of the S2, and at the package, to see if it has Kato printed on the bottom, or if it was made in Japan rather than China. If it is a Kato locomotive, that's a very good thing in general, but it might affect the wheel gage. Kato equipment is often a little bit tighter wheel gage than American standards. Their overall quality is excellent though, and once you get an NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) standards gauge, you can check the wheels, and adjust them if necessary. Do definitely buy the NMRA gauge on your next visit to Tony's. It is an essential tool for any model railroad. Besides checking wheel gauge, it can also check the rail gage and several critical areas of a turnout. It can also check clearances for tunnels, bridges, and track-side structures. I would get the gauge now, and start checking all the wheels, all the track, and the various checks on turnouts as soon as you want. 

I was about to suggest that the slight jerk at the frog was mechanical, rather than electrical, when I remembered that you eliminated the jerk by connecting power to the frog. Duh me! obviously it would have to be an electrical problem! :smilie_auslachen:

If you are going to manually operate the turnouts in your yard, how will you be doing that? Are the turnouts going to be within easy reach, where you can just operate them with your finger? Or were you going to use Caboose industries ground throws, or some sort of mechanical linkage? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned the $13 per turnout cost for frog juicers several times. Micro-switches can be attached to a mechanical linkage for maybe $1 per turnout. That's the method I use and it works well. Caboose Industries offers their ground throws with optional electric contacts built-in. They would change the frog polarity automatically when you throw the points of the turnout. You might want to check out the cost of those with your friend Tony, while you're there.
Manual uncoupling can be done with a small stick, like a bamboo skewer. Easy and inexpensive. 

I think your YouTube toggle switch guy would be better served by using one double pole double throw (DPDT) toggle switch to BOTH throw the points, AND change the frog polarity, simultaneously, with one flip of a single toggle switch. Since he already has a system that works for him, I'll leave him alone. :laugh: 

Thanks for the compliment on my covered bridge. I scratch-built it from basswood, and installed working lights inside. I copied the basic design, and dimensions, from photos of the Allentown covered bridge that once stood south of Seattle, my model railroad's locale. 

Have fun;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

Wow, I did not know about Caboose industries ground throws. I went searching once for a similar product but never found anything I liked. Those I really like, especially the ones with the contacts. Those will save me some money on my layout and they look really nice. Thanx for bringing that up. 

The yard will be in easy reach. Turnouts off the main line maybe not so much so I may motorize those. I am just not sure at this point to be honest. I knew very little of the details of this hobby a month or so ago. I was so ignorant I could not even spell DCC. All I really knew was what I remember of my Lionel set as a kid and that was 60 years ago. Sometimes, I don't remember what I had for dinner last 
night. 

The Atlas S2 is NOT too tight on the rails. Just the opposite. There is some side play left & right. I am suspecting some is normal and warranted, I am just not versed on how much is too much. As you say, a gauge is in order. That will tell the tale. I wish Tony was my friend, but alas I have never met the chap. Whoever he is, he will be getting lots of money from me in the future. LMAO. 

I have ordered some nice Vermont railroads rolling stock from Ebay. Next up I plan on testing inclines with some weight sitting on a flat car to determine what the switcher can do at the quarry I have planned. I have read that 2% grades should be considered the maximum and that makes sense to me on main lines, but in a mining or logging scenario things just may get a little steeper then that. I need to determine what my little engine that could can do. Still moving forward. 

Cheers and have a great evening. The bridge rocks.


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## bewhole (Dec 31, 2016)

Well If you do decide to go that route get the Caboose Industries 5218S ones. I have some for my peco switches and they work great. They run about $12.00 to $16.00 but that is for a 5 Pack of them.


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

bewhole said:


> Well If you do decide to go that route get the Caboose Industries 5218S ones. I have some for my peco switches and they work great. They run about $12.00 to $16.00 but that is for a 5 Pack of them.


I'm thinking of the ones with the SPDT contacts built in for frog power. #224S for Code 55. Of course those are more $$$ but less money then Frog Juicers. Glad they work great with Peco turnouts. Thank you.


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## bewhole (Dec 31, 2016)

Must have missed them in my searching. Thanks for pointing them out for me I may just have to get one or two just to try them out.
:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

bewhole said:


> Must have missed them in my searching. Thanks for pointing them out for me I may just have to get one or two just to try them out.
> :smilie_daumenpos:


Traction Fan gets all the credit. He pointed them out to me. 

Where in Maine do you hail from? We're there a couple times a year gorging on lobstah.


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## bewhole (Dec 31, 2016)

Well I am not really from here but I am in the small town of Waterboro. I was a native of Vermont (Born and raised). Came down here for the jobs back in 2000 and sort of "settled in. Where do you get your lobstah ??


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

bewhole said:


> Well I am not really from here but I am in the small town of Waterboro. I was a native of Vermont (Born and raised). Came down here for the jobs back in 2000 and sort of "settled in. Where do you get your lobstah ??


Estes Lobster in Hartswell and the Cribstone Grille at Baileys Island. Both great places and looking forward to summer to head back.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Remote control of turnouts*



CV-62 said:


> Wow, I did not know about Caboose industries ground throws. I went searching once for a similar product but never found anything I liked. Those I really like, especially the ones with the contacts. Those will save me some money on my layout and they look really nice. Thanx for bringing that up.
> 
> The yard will be in easy reach. Turnouts off the main line maybe not so much so I may motorize those. I am just not sure at this point to be honest. I knew very little of the details of this hobby a month or so ago. I was so ignorant I could not even spell DCC. All I really knew was what I remember of my Lionel set as a kid and that was 60 years ago. Sometimes, I don't remember what I had for dinner last
> night.
> ...




CV-62;

Glad I could help you with the suggestion regarding Caboose Industries ground throws. For turnouts within reach they should work well. They can also be used for remote turnouts, if you wish. By using a :rod inside a tube" super simple and reliable, mechanical linkage, you can mount the Cab/Ind ground throw at the edge of your layout, in a spot where you can easily reach it. The linkage can extend the ground throw's reach clear across the layout if needed. You would also need to run 3 wires between turnout and ground throw. One to the frog, and the other two to the two stock rails. Then the ground throw's contacts could control the frog polarity on the distant turnout. You can see such a linkage by going back to my "Cedar Falls" photos, earlier in this thread. The bottom view photo shows this type of linkage being used to connect my "up front motors" to their respective turnouts, and to connect the motors that operate the doors on my engine house.
Also back in this thread, are two files describing how to build my $5 "almost a tortoise" switch machine. It's very easy and quick to assemble and is another low cost alternative to laying out $18 each for Tortoise motors. Like the much more expensive commercial real Tortoise machine, my design includes a micro-switch to handle frog polarity.

I hear you about failing memory! I too have "Someheimer's" (like Alzheimer's but intermittent!  ) One of the many things I used to repair were the magnetic security systems used in libraries and stores. There was some (false) controversy about possible harm from the magnetic fields these systems produced.
I often go through the doorway that connects my house to the attached garage. (where my model railroad resides) quite often passing through this "magical memory-erasing portal", causes me to start "thinking about the hereafter," as in "Now what the&^%$$# did I come out here after?" Maybe it was all the time I spent in those magnetic fields? More likely it was just all the time I've been alive! :laugh:

To learn more about this hobby than "how to spell DCC" (good one!) you can read the files below (if this is a repeat sending of these, remember the someheimers. ) I sometimes forget who I've sent them to. There is also a book I recommend. It's titled "Getting Started in Model Railroading," by Jeff Wilson. You can order it through your "favorite financial drain" Tony. 

Since you liked one scratch-built bridge, I'll send you another, along with two other scratch-built structures. A water tower, and Seattle Union Station. Scratch-building is another major money saver. You typically get a better-looking structure, at a fraction of the cost of a commercial structure. 

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment 1 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 2 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 3 & 4 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 5 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment 6 How to build a better first layout.pdf


View attachment All AboutTurnouts.pdf


View attachment Model Railroad Terminology 2.2.pdf


View attachment MODEL RAILROADING ON A BUDGET.pdf


View attachment WHERE DO I START 3.pdf


View attachment N-scale cars for sale.pdf


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

Nice work!! I hope when the time comes I can do work like that. I would say you have the patience of Job. 

Well, the first of my rolling stock came rolling in today. No pun intended. A MicroTrains CV box car. I have to say I am impressed with the quality for what I am suspecting to be mid range quality rolling stock at best. I like them better then Atlas, but that just may be my personal preferences.

On my test track I am pushing a box car through the Peco UniFrog Medium turnout at top speed onto the diverging track with NO issues at all. No derailments. Mind you, for testing purposes, none of the track is soldered. Relying on rail joiners for electrical continuity with some gaps in the rails so not a perfect scenario but testing fine so that bodes well. 

I am getting ready to try SCARM and start designing my layout. I need my wife's computer for that as I have a Mac and from what I can tell SCARM only works on Windows. I would much rather work on my big MAC (not the burger) but the laptop will suffice. 

Slow and steady wins the race as they say.


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## bewhole (Dec 31, 2016)

You could try this one. http://www.railmodeller.com/express-edition-en.html

I have not tried it (No Mac) but it is free. They also have a more "Robust" one on the same page but it is not free. I could not tell you if it is "Easy" to use like SCARM or not.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Micro-Trains quality*



CV-62 said:


> Nice work!! I hope when the time comes I can do work like that. I would say you have the patience of Job.
> 
> Well, the first of my rolling stock came rolling in today. No pun intended. A MicroTrains CV box car. I have to say I am impressed with the quality for what I am suspecting to be mid range quality rolling stock at best. I like them better then Atlas, but that just may be my personal preferences.
> 
> ...


CV-62;

Micro-Trains cars are very high quality. There are a few brands with more detail parts to apply, (intermountain for one) but nothing beats Micro-trains right out of the box IMO. They ain't cheap, but the molded-in details and lettering are excellent, under magnification, even the tiny print is clearly legible. They roll well, and they are the only N-scale boxcars with doors that open.

Thanks for the compliment on my structures. They did take a lot of time to build, but using up your spare time is what a hobby is for.  Anybody can make structures like these, as long as they're completely nuts, have a Magnivisor, and a lot of time on their hands! :laugh:

As for the patience of Job, well you should ask my wife about that. I might be patient when building one of my models, but not so much at other times! :laugh:

In your experiments with Peco turnouts, you are discovering something that others have known for years; Pecos are very reliable, and have very few, if any, derailments. That's why they are highly recommended by so many modelers.

Good luck with your layout design. Post it when you have what you want, and we'll pick it apart! :laugh: Not really, but I would be curious to see what you are doing.

Have Fun;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

bewhole said:


> You could try this one. http://www.railmodeller.com/express-edition-en.html
> 
> I have not tried it (No Mac) but it is free. They also have a more "Robust" one on the same page but it is not free. I could not tell you if it is "Easy" to use like SCARM or not.


I will check it out. Thank you. 



traction fan said:


> CV-62;
> 
> Micro-Trains cars are very high quality. There are a few brands with more detail parts to apply, (intermountain for one) but nothing beats Micro-trains right out of the box IMO. They ain't cheap, but the molded-in details and lettering are excellent, under magnification, even the tiny print is clearly legible. They roll well, and they are the only N-scale boxcars with doors that open.
> 
> ...


Mastering that computer design software will be a job in and of itself. Gonna take some to cipher through that. I have extra time on my hands during the winter months up here so I am hoping to get through this phase of the design before things pick up for me in the spring. 

How in heaven's name did the old timers in this hobby ever learn what they needed to learn without the internet? I think I may know the answer. There used to be awesome and large hobby stores which are mostly gone now. Hmmmm.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Back in the day*



CV-62 said:


> I will check it out. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 CV-62;

Way back when we also had an ancient source of information called "books." They were rectangular objects made of a substance called "paper" made from trees. The top, and bottom, layers were made of something called "cardboard." Once upon a time, in the ancient pre-google era, in the dark ages before man discovered cell phones, these "book" objects were quite numerous. There was even a group of buildings that were used to store these strange "book" things! They were called "Libraries." 

Actually, the above may not be all that far fetched, at least to our younger members. My wife showed me a YouTube video of two 17 year old guys trying to figure out how to use a rotary telephone. Quite funny, :smilie_auslachen: at least until we old farts realize that anyone now 17 years old has probably never seen, or even heard of, a rotary phone! So I guess it's like me trying to operate a butter churn. :laugh: 

regards; 

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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