# Railway Design Associates



## bret191

I recently got suckered in to buying a kit on EBay Railway Design Associates kit named Delaney Iron Works. They are leading people to believe that the kit retails for $60 when in FACT you can buy this kit every where for $37. They are all most telling out right lies to sell product! I started looking around and found out that these kits are pretty much just hack jobs with VERY poor quality and fit!
I would be very care-full:thumbsdown: and stay away from this seller and his product! If they will Lead people to believe Untrue prices then where else will they stop?!
You can rip me off once, but it will never happen again!!
You know the sad part about this is I probably would have purchased more kits from them!:rippedhand:
Liv and learn.
I would really like to hear from other unsatisfied customer's so other people don't get shafted!


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## NIMT

Bret,
Have you build a lot of models in the past?
What you bought was a "craftsman" kit a very complicated an intricate.
They require allot of work and time to make them look good!
Craftsman kits are hard kit's to assemble, most parts look to be warped distorted and cheap, when in fact that is what gives them there quality.
I'm not saying that maybe you didn't get a dud of a kit, some are better than others. 
If you want an excellent finishing kit stay with kit's like Walthers cornerstone series, DPM makes some really fine kits.
Take a run up around the 101 and head to a hobby store called Affair with trains they should have better kit's to work with.


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## Stillakid

Bret, there's some info here regarding the building you bought. Offers suggestion/remedies for window problems. Hope it helps.
Regards,
Jim

http://www220.pair.com/hilstu/rr/rda_kits.html


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## tjcruiser

Wow ... that's some powerful and documented (not just speculative) criticism of the fabrication tolerance of the product.

TJ


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## NIMT

That was a good write of of the kit's!
OK I take back or at least modify my previous comments!
It sound like the kit are closer to Cr#*sman kits then craftsman!
bret191, I get what your saying now!
Thanks for the eye opening heads up, sorry it was at your expense!


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## gc53dfgc

I read that email and saw the photos of the problems and it has to be complete BS that he was the first one to complain to them about that problem. Now wether or not her "husband" actually did all that work or not is unknown but if they make that bad a quality of product then they should not be selling it at all. The email seemed completly made up to me as well.


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## haphall

I sell regularly on eBay and offer my customers an unconditional satisfaction guarantee (including shipping) on everything I sell. Shame on that vendor for not backing their products. Not all sellers on eBay are trying to mislead buyers by any means.
Of course I'm selling mostly Roundhouse and AHM billboard reefers and old time flat cars and such so they're easier to support. Most buyers are already familiar with what they're bidding on.


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## mattrda

*There is always 1 or 2*

A few facts in response to the initial gentleman's post:
We sell over 100 Delaney Iron Works structures per Year
We have distributors that sell the product for $80.00 (Most think $37 on eBay is a bargain)
We have 1 or 2 unsatisified customers, due to the fits in some of the windows and doors. They declined our offer for full refund (why do you think that is?)
I am not a modeler and was able to put the Delaney together, painted and sold finished for $185.
All RDA buildings were designed by a Lionel Trains industrial designer.
The detail is unmatched in the industry, especially at that price point.
All parts made in the USA.

Matt at railwaydesign.com


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## hogger1960

I bought a couple of these kits, and I'm not too impressed with the quality, either. DPM kits have much more finer detail than these RDA ones. Also, I didn't open mine for a few months after purchasing, and when I did open the Crosstown Garage bag, it appeared that some parts were missing. Two "enquiries" to RDA went unanswered regarding obtaining replacement parts.
To respond to NIMT, these are hardly craftsman-quality kits. I understand cutting and trimming to make parts fit, but noticeable gaps in plastic wall sections is not what craftsman quality is all about. As I said earlier, DPM has them beat in detail. They suffice for background buildings, or when one wants to radically alter a kit design, but for up-close viewing, they do lack in appeal.


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## mattrda

Interesting post. When we define craftsman we are talking about the "art" of model making, sure, out of the box, the DPM readymades look sweet (twice the cost of an RDA kit by the way). Though there is no craft or art to it, you take it out of the box, slap it on your layout and you're done. If however you seek realism and don't mind wielding a paint brush and other tools/materials of the craftsman, you won't find anything on the market with more real qualities than an RDA kit. The bag by the way saves money and waste then packaged boxes, color dyes and cost. Also, did you check where the DPM is manufactured? Background buildings? Have you checked with world famous modelers, layout builders and film producers who use RDA structures on what they think?


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## norgale

Ok Matt you have made your point and from what I can see of the detail in the pictures posted above, you do provide a good looking building. However that is not the point of this thread.
Bret191 has complained about the fit of the windows and doors and the fit of the wall sections. His pictures do provide proof of some problems with these details but nobody at your company seems interested in helping the guy out.
With only one or two complaints out of a hundred sales it should be no problem to fix this guy up with the right parts for his kit. Ignoring the problem or refusing to do anything about it brings up a thread like this that only hurts your company.
I'd suggest you try and provide the guy with the right parts,or swap the kit with another one and anilyze it to see what went wrong here. Otherwise you get an "F" on your report card for Customer Service and another "F" for design engineering.
With hundreds of viewers and members on this forum that's not very good advertising for you. Pete


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## mattrda

Ok Pete. Point on windows or any craftsman kit is that you have to build the kit. I like how you use words like "get an F", are you the judge teacher? If you would inquire rather than judge, you will find that the windows take less than 10 minutes to fit, all you need is an exacto knife. 
Frankly speaking, we would prefer to not have complainers as customers. We strongly discourage those with lack of experience or unwillingness to see the bigger picture which is: RDA provides skilled modelers the foundation to make amazing structures. We are not perfect but we have leading modelers who buy our kits over and over...why do you think that is? If you track our sales you will note that we have very few complaints in relation to volume. 

I understand that a forum like this gives a place to people who need to vent. However, the positive people seek each other out and usually remain silent and not concern themselves with the negative. Life lesson for you Pete.


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## sstlaure

mattrda......You re-opened a thread from almost a year ago just to berate a member on here? Nice.

Forums like this provide a means of education for all involved in the hobby, both good and bad. It also provides a means for people who feel they have been wronged to vent. Doesn't mean they are right, but they've got the right to vent.

It also provides a means for companies that follow websites like this to respond in a manner which sheds light on the subject at hand as well as how that particular company may handle the situation. I think you re-opening this thread after 9 months says something (still not sure exactly what to think.)

I work in the auto industry - we get all kinds of people that complain about stuff that they themselves did to the vehicle, yet dealers have a budget for "customer goodwill" i.e. making the customer feel right about the situation to protect future sales and avoid bad publicity. 

If your complaints vs good experiences are so few in number, you may want to consider something similar to this policy rather than getting snippy with people on the internet and trying to teach them "life lessons". It will cost you less in the long run. 

While the original poster may be completely wrong (I don't know), what I do know is that many people will see something like this and just avoid the situation in the first place rather than risk being in the same situation as the OP. Thus losing you more $$$$ than you would have spent just refunding the kit price.

A little "life lesson" for you sir.


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## sstlaure

Here's another option for you mattrda.

Randy from Downtown Decos has done a couple of detailed builds of his kits on this website to show, step by step, what is required to build his kits as well as the finished results (very impressive indeed.)

Maybe by demonstrating how great your product is you can change the perception.

Right now I see the perception being that your company doesn't like complainers, however you don't get to pick your customers. What you can do is educate them on your product.

(And if the OP refused an offer of a refund and failed to post that, then it's on him, not you.)


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## wolfeinmane

mattrda said:


> Ok Pete. Point on windows or any craftsman kit is that you have to build the kit. I like how you use words like "get an F", are you the judge teacher? If you would inquire rather than judge, you will find that the windows take less than 10 minutes to fit, all you need is an exacto knife.
> Frankly speaking, we would prefer to not have complainers as customers. We strongly discourage those with lack of experience or unwillingness to see the bigger picture which is: RDA provides skilled modelers the foundation to make amazing structures. We are not perfect but we have leading modelers who buy our kits over and over...why do you think that is? If you track our sales you will note that we have very few complaints in relation to volume.
> 
> I understand that a forum like this gives a place to people who need to vent. However, the positive people seek each other out and usually remain silent and not concern themselves with the negative. Life lesson for you Pete.


I built my own property management company up from absolutely nothing. And if you know anything about property managment in Los Angeles, you will know that I am in competition with ten thousand other PM companies, and hundreds of thousands of real estate sales offices. 

I am still successful after all these years because of three things: expert knowledge, attention to detail, and superb customer satisfaction. You can be the best at the first two, but if you lack on the third you will fail. Buddy you need to watch some of those reality TV shows, where the successful experts go into businesses like restaurants, and tell them that customer satisfaction is everything.

There was a simple way to handle this, and that was to tell the *CUSTOMER* that you are so sorry they didn't have a positive experience with your product and you would be happy to make it right, and then take it offline. A customer that has a positive experience with your company tells 1-2 people, a customer that has a negative experience tells 10-20 people.

I was actually going to try one of your products after seeing the pics online and the very fair price, but now I will not. And the reason is how you treat the people who pay your salary, shameful.


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## gunrunnerjohn

mattrda said:


> Ok Pete. Point on windows or any craftsman kit is that you have to build the kit. I like how you use words like "get an F", are you the judge teacher? If you would inquire rather than judge, you will find that the windows take less than 10 minutes to fit, all you need is an exacto knife.
> Frankly speaking, we would prefer to not have complainers as customers. We strongly discourage those with lack of experience or unwillingness to see the bigger picture which is: RDA provides skilled modelers the foundation to make amazing structures. We are not perfect but we have leading modelers who buy our kits over and over...why do you think that is? If you track our sales you will note that we have very few complaints in relation to volume.
> 
> I understand that a forum like this gives a place to people who need to vent. However, the positive people seek each other out and usually remain silent and not concern themselves with the negative. Life lesson for you Pete.


Gosh, if that was supposed to present a positive image of the company, I'd have to give you a failing grade as well. All you're doing here, it would seem, is turning off other potential customers. 

I have no dog in this fight, just making an observation on the response. If I were a representative of the company, that's not how I'd respond.


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## steam chaser

Customer relations is everything,without it you have nothing.I appreciate the heads up.I will never buy one of these.I will give my business to someone who appreciates it.


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## sstlaure

Not sure how you're going to trim either a window or the opening to make a too small window/door fit a too large opening. Or how if you align the floor, that the windows/walls don't line up anymore....not fixable with an Exacto no matter how much time you take with it.



















There are plenty of others that have complained about the poor fit of the windows/doors and the questionable customer service. 

http://kitforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4549

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12623

With some work you can make anything look good, but that's not the point. 

The problems I see are pretty basic to fix in the tooling if they wanted to. (well....the wall alignment would most likely require a new tool) At 100 kits a year, they probably don't generate enough revenue to make correcting the tooling financially worth it. (Hence the need for good customer service if you already know there are some quality issues with the parts/content)

These look like some really nice appearing designs, just looks like the tooling execution/quality control could use some work. Almost ALL of the comments I have seen is that once you take additional time with them, that the appearance in acceptable. However for some of us, time is as precious (if not more so) than money, so that does make a difference.


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## mattrda

Scott, you are wise, balanced and your comments are well received. (except the snippy comment which is in itself snippy.) btw we have new Durham doors as well as Johnson's. They are laser cut and have had no complaints. (Yet 

For those who talk about satisfying customers, happy to jump on the phone with you and share some of the kinds of people we have to deal with, definitely customers we don't want and you can never *repeat* never make them happy. This point is indeed meant to discourage these folks from buying from us. For those of you who are quick to judge and say you will never buy one of our kits, I say thank you, please don't buy some of the best craftsman kits in the world!

One of my developer friends said to me the other day: "these folks who complain about minutiae could never imagine or create what we have, but if you tell them the truth, they hate you for it."


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## mattrda

wolfeinmane said:


> I built my own property management company up from absolutely nothing. And if you know anything about property managment in Los Angeles, you will know that I am in competition with ten thousand other PM companies, and hundreds of thousands of real estate sales offices.
> 
> I am still successful after all these years because of three things: expert knowledge, attention to detail, and superb customer satisfaction. You can be the best at the first two, but if you lack on the third you will fail. Buddy you need to watch some of those reality TV shows, where the successful experts go into businesses like restaurants, and tell them that customer satisfaction is everything.
> 
> There was a simple way to handle this, and that was to tell the *CUSTOMER* that you are so sorry they didn't have a positive experience with your product and you would be happy to make it right, and then take it offline. A customer that has a positive experience with your company tells 1-2 people, a customer that has a negative experience tells 10-20 people.
> 
> I was actually going to try one of your products after seeing the pics online and the very fair price, but now I will not. And the reason is how you treat the people who pay your salary, shameful.


Definitely somebody we don't want as a customer. Notice: He goes by "wolf" he says he is an "expert" and judgemental: "shameful".:thumbsdown:

I agree with him on superb customer satisfaction, I disagree with him in that not every customer is deserving and most manufacturers will agree behind closed doors there are some customers they wish they didn't have. Truth.


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## sstlaure

I'd love to see the improvements made vs what has been previously reported (improved door fit, etc.) I'd also love to see a build on one of your kits. As a rebuttal to the above complaints, it would be nice to see some pics of the improved fit in the areas in question.

Believe me, I know all about customers who will never be satisfied and are just too picky, however, I also know that as a businessman in this modern internet era, that bad news travels much faster than good.

A bad experience can quickly be turned into a positive if handled correctly. It's not about discouraging those people from buying from you again (which is most likely the case anyway) but rather to avoid what you have been seeing here with driving other sales away due solely to how the situation is being handled.

I don't want to see anyone fail, especially an American company (did I mention I'm an Engineer at Ford?)

As for the snippy comment I made - pointing out your snippy comment to a potential customer is merely stating a fact. The impact of those statements made reflect upon your company and will affect your business more than a couple poor fitting components.

I understand that this company is an extension of your father's dreams and I respect that, and as such if someone calls into question the quality of the product, it can be taken personally. It's certainly not meant that way.

From your website:
_as a tribute to their grandfather's vision of creating structures for the modeler that are evocative of trackside buildings, mills, and stations, *all dedicated to detail*._

It's this last statement that should be focused on. Attention to detail implies craftsmanship, not just in how the model is assembled, but also in how it is manufactured/tooled. Trimming I have no problem with, I've kit-bashed plenty of structures so I'm not afraid of modifying things, however when it's simply impossible to line up molded details, that's when it is a problem.

FYI....It's quite possible that if you talk to your molding house (not sure if you do these in-house or what) that they could get the walls to match better in size by modifying either the injection pressure or the injection dwell time in the machine. Plastics love to shrink/expand due to variations in processing parameters and if they aren't controlled properly, you could have tools that are identical, but the parts themselves end up very different sizes.


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## sstlaure

mattrda said:


> most manufacturers will agree behind closed doors there are some customers they wish they didn't have. Truth.


Those manufacturers stating those complaints behind closed doors and not publicly on the internet are the smart ones.....truth.

Go to yahoo and do a search on Railway Design Associates and see what comes up in the search engine. This thread pops pretty close to the top.

I'm trying to help you here, but you don't seem to be very receptive.


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## OverTheHill

I know that some of my fellow forum members are going to think that I an either nuts or crazy or both (my wife does) but I am half tempted…. notice I said half tempted to order one of these kits (Middleton Mills) from RDA and post the result of the build on this forum. We could call it ….Middleton Mills Build by RDA.

Just an idea...

Overthehill


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## sstlaure

Go for it OTH....either dispel or confirm the myths.


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## OverTheHill

If I deceide to do it it won’t be till Winter…Summer is to short in Ohio.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm reminded of a sign that hangs outside the Wholey Meat Packing Plant. 

*Rule #1: The customer is always right. 
Rule #2: If the customer is ever wrong, re-read rule #1*


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## mattrda

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm reminded of a sign that hangs outside the Wholey Meat Packing Plant.
> 
> *Rule #1: The customer is always right.
> Rule #2: If the customer is ever wrong, re-read rule #1*


The phrase “The customer is always right” was originally coined by Harry Gordon Selfridge, the founder of Selfridge’s department store in London in 1909 ---guess what...he's dead and we are in a new century.

Top 5 reasons why the customer is not always right:

http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/


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## OverTheHill

You can go wong with customer service. Just look at Bar Mills, Downtowwn Deco, FSM, FOS, Campbells. 
Would I buy another kit from these manufactures. In a heart beat. Why..It’s all about customer service.


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## gunrunnerjohn

mattrda said:


> The phrase “The customer is always right” was originally coined by Harry Gordon Selfridge, the founder of Selfridge’s department store in London in 1909 ---guess what...he's dead and we are in a new century.
> 
> Top 5 reasons why the customer is not always right:
> 
> http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/


I'm thinking you miss the point. I don't want to beat a dead horse here. Obviously, in reality, the customer is not always right. It's how you deal with them being wrong that's the issue, and I think the point of the saying. Just because _Einstein_ is dead, that doesn't mean the _theory of relativity_ is no longer valid, right?


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## sstlaure

mattrda said:


> The phrase “The customer is always right” was originally coined by Harry Gordon Selfridge, the founder of Selfridge’s department store in London in 1909 ---guess what...he's dead and we are in a new century.
> 
> Top 5 reasons why the customer is not always right:
> 
> http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/


Hmmm....interesting...and after 103 years in service, Selfridge's was voted the world's best department store in 2010. (and not self-proclaimed either)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfridges

You'll note in the Wiki link that they too have complaints - they don't, however, tell the customer that they are wrong and belittle them. 

Not saying the customer is always right, they certainly are not, but it's in your power to turn their perception around or at least limit the damage. 

You're making a conscious choice to not limit the damage being done by some fairly minor issues. Your company, your choice.

How do YOU feel about the poor fit of the components shown earlier in this thread? Do you honestly feel that level of fit/finish is indicative of "the best craftsman kits in the world"?


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## mattrda

Hopefully this will help lighten things up:

Customer: “I want a chicken caesar salad.”

Me: “Okay. Would you like tomatoes, onions, and peppers on that?”

Customer: “What?”

Me: “Would you like tomatoes, onions, and peppers?”

Customer: “Um, no peppers.”

Me: “Okay, so just tomatoes and onions, then?”

Customer: “No, no onions.”

Me: “Just tomatoes?”

Customer: “No, no tomatoes, either.”

Me: “Okay…”


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## mattrda

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm thinking you miss the point. I don't want to beat a dead horse here. Obviously, in reality, the customer is not always right. It's how you deal with them being wrong that's the issue, and I think the point of the saying. Just because _Einstein_ is dead, that doesn't mean the _theory of relativity_ is no longer valid, right?


Selfridge was no Einstein


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## Gansett

Matt, give it up. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole. Judging from your replies you can rest assured that I will never, ever do business with your company.


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## OverTheHill

What is the purpose of this discussion????


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## mattrda

JackC said:


> Matt, give it up. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole. Judging from your replies you can rest assured that I will never, ever do business with your company.


"Judging" -- and we will never, ever do business with you Jack.


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## tjcruiser

OK ... time to move along, guys???

TJ


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## sstlaure

Not sure.....mattrda dragged this thread up from the past (last post 9 months ago) to just berate Pete a little bit (not sure what the motivation was)

Me? I'm actually trying to help the guy understand what he's doing to his father's company with continued pissy comments towards potential customers. He doesn't seem to care.

His assertion that apparently the customer is always wrong, even when presented with the clear evidence that there are absolutely fit/quality issues that can't be easily resolved, is puzzling to say the least.

I'm doing my best to keep these comments in a positive light (continuous improvement anyone?) but the continued defensiveness isn't making it easy.


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## sstlaure

JackC said:


> Matt, give it up. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole.












With the attitude presented....he's gonna need some of these for that hole.hwell:

Too bad.


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## mattrda

Stop obsessing Scott and move on like the moderator suggested.


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## sstlaure

You're the one who dragged the thread up from 9 months ago.

You don't care about your customers....we all get that now. Point taken.

TJ....Might as well lock the thread. mattrda clearly doesn't care that this entire discussion will come up whenever ANYONE searches for Railway Design Associates on the internet.

Good luck to you and your company Matt.


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## mattrda

Thanks Scott. Always seeking to please people like you.


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## sstlaure

Go back and look at my posts. You'll see I was truly trying to help. You simply don't want it or don't care.

I'd still love to see the improvements that you have made to correct the previous issues noted.

Your choice on how you want to handle your business. Too bad you can't see the damage you are continuing to do.

FWIW....I did like the appearance of the kits you sell and very rarely built kits per instructions (prefer to modify them), and quite possible would have still purchased some of them. However, I also prefer to support companies that actually stand by their products.

You won't be getting my business now that's for sure.....or Jack's, or GRJ's, or Norgales, or...............


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## mattrda

Thanks again Scott for your support. hwell: The effect of this thread is actually opposite of what you might think. I'll share with you why but offline.


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## sstlaure

Feel free....if this is "positive buzz" about your product that you think shows you in a good light, I'd hate to see what bad publicity is.

Your attitude is the ONLY thing that caused me to give you the "support" you are receiving.


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## mattrda

Thanks again Scott.


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## Reckers

mattrda said:


> Ok Pete. Point on windows or any craftsman kit is that you have to build the kit. I like how you use words like "get an F", are you the judge teacher? If you would inquire rather than judge, you will find that the windows take less than 10 minutes to fit, all you need is an exacto knife.
> Frankly speaking, we would prefer to not have complainers as customers. We strongly discourage those with lack of experience or unwillingness to see the bigger picture which is: RDA provides skilled modelers the foundation to make amazing structures. We are not perfect but we have leading modelers who buy our kits over and over...why do you think that is? If you track our sales you will note that we have very few complaints in relation to volume.
> 
> I understand that a forum like this gives a place to people who need to vent. However, the positive people seek each other out and usually remain silent and not concern themselves with the negative. Life lesson for you Pete.



Wow. Matt, I'd have to say that is the most supercilious, offensive reply from a manufacturer I've ever seen. Let me share my point of view with you. YOU SOLD A DEFECTIVE PRODUCT: THE WINDOWS DIDN'T FIT. It doesn't matter if only one person encountered the problem: you owe it to that one customer to refund their money or make good on the product. If you can't understand that, you don't deserve to be in any kind of business.

Now, before you deliver another "we don't need you whining customers" response, consider how many people you've already succeeded in alienating with your previous posts. I've never heard of your company, but I'll damned sure remember to not buy from you in the future. Multiply that by the number of people who read this forum and see how many whining customers won't give your company a first chance, much less a second. You owe an apology to the guy your company screwed over, biotch: LIFE LESSON. DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.


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## gunrunnerjohn

OK, we've all had our say, including me. I think there's little point in this thread continuing, what do you say we leave it at this? I'll close this one now.


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