# Have New Lionel Catalogs Lost Their Luster?



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

It wasn't THAT long ago that Lionel had absolutely no problems keeping its new catalog offerings under wraps until the actual planned publication date. Indeed, the anticipation was as much a part of the ritual as eventually flipping through the pages (either physically or online). Remember?

Then the bottom fell out. And it appears Lionel can't keep a lid on things no matter how hard they try. What gives? 

Really... I think the epitome of unbridled anticipation occurred a few catalogs ago, when Lionel previewed the catalog at one of the summertime conventions -- I think it might have been an LCCA convention. Attendees were treated to catalog highlights, and then a steel curtain dropped as lips were sealed shut with super glue. People who didn't attend the convention couldn't understand what kind of magic spell Lionel cast on the LCCA convention attendees, whereby NOBODY whispered an ounce of information about new releases they were privy to at the convention for well over a month or two.

Fast-forward to 2019, where "everybody wants to be a star" on social media these days.  Seriously, for 2 consecutive catalogs now, we could drive a proverbial Mack Truck through the catalog leaks. 

Last time, some kid snagged a physical catalog and posted the whole darn thing on YouTube as he paged through the catalog page by page. The audio was annoying as all get-out. But if you looked past that -- or just muted the volume altogether, you eventually knew EVERYTHING you needed to know WEEKS before the planned catalog launch date. And now Lionel's second catalog in 2019 appears equally susceptible to "leaks". Thus far, nobody has stepped forward into YouTube-land just yet. But nearly everyone who has grabbed an early copy is posting page-spreads online -- even on eBay listings where catalogs are being offered for sale with buy-it-now listings.

I do find it quite fascinated that we've gone from one catalog a couple of years ago, where mums-the-word was gospel -- even by folks who physically saw the previews at a convention... to now where nobody seems to give a hoot about keeping stuff under wraps. I'm not sure what the right word is to describe the phenomenon, but I'm sure a PhD candidate would have a ball doing a thesis on this type of human behavior!!! 

All of this notwithstanding, I can't help but wonder whether reality has finally set in... and enthusiasts don't really care anymore about Lionel's request for secrecy. I mean... folks will ALWAYS wanna see new offerings being announced,. But it's almost as if the reputation of Lionel's production problems and quality issues has resulted in an "I-don't-give-a-darn" attitude when it comes to keeping a lid on things.

Case in point: I called a dealer to update my credit card info with them, and I now heard Lionel's VisionLine Challengers are "on hold" in North Carolina. What's THAT about? I knew SOMETHING was up, now that a good SEVERAL weeks have gone by after Mr. Muffins Trains mentioned that we'd see the Challengers in just 2 weeks. Another local dealer here in SE PA was due to receive their Challengers on 6/28. But here we are at 7/8, and they're still waiting. Charlie Ro now shows an ETA to his store of 8/10 for the Challengers. What happened to "2 weeks" that would've put the Challengers into stores around mid- to late-June?  

Can it be we've already reached the point where even the allure of 25- or 50-unit special-production-runs of offerings only available through an exclusive dealer is being dampened by Lionel quality problems? So now folks no longer respect the veil of secrecy that was once such a big part of a new Lionel catalog being released?

I'm not sure what to think anymore.  But I liked the old days much better. And they weren't THAT long ago.

David


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> All of this notwithstanding, I can't help but wonder whether reality has finally set in... and enthusiasts don't really care anymore about Lionel's request for secrecy. I mean... folks will ALWAYS wanna see new offerings being announced,. But it's almost as if the reputation of Lionel's production problems and quality issues has resulted in an "I-don't-give-a-darn" attitude when it comes to keeping a lid on things.


The dealer in my local area puts the Lionel Catalog on EBay every time the moment it reaches his store. He does not care about the Go Live Date that Lionel sets. He figures he can make a few extra $ for those that want the catalog so bad that they can't wait to the Go Live Date. He is not a dealer who gets direct shipping from Lionel but I think at one time he did. I believe by his attitude that he has been burned by Lionel so he no longer cares. 



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I now heard Lionel's VisionLine Challengers are "on hold" in North Carolina. What's THAT about? I knew SOMETHING was up, now that a good SEVERAL weeks have gone by after Mr. Muffins Trains mentioned that we'd see the Challengers in just 2 weeks. Another local dealer here in SE PA was due to receive their Challengers on 6/28. But here we are at 7/8, and they're still waiting. Charlie Ro now shows an ETA to his store of 8/10 for the Challengers. What happened to "2 weeks" that would've put the Challengers into stores around mid- to late-June?
> 
> David



I read on the other forum it was a quality problem again. Three engines were taken out of boxes in NC and they all failed in quality. No details given about the quality problems but we can all assume what the problem could possibly be in light of the most recent problems. 

Makes me wonder too, because I have preorder for a Mountain that was due in March but keeps being pushed back. Charles Ro Website says July 10th but there has been no mention by any dealer so far for their delivery. I am wondering if they are on hold too. I have my doubts about a July delivery for those engines. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> It wasn't THAT long ago that Lionel had absolutely no problems keeping its new catalog offerings under wraps until the actual planned publication date.


I wonder if they still care? One day they will go paperless. Then it will be easy to keep it under wraps. No one will know until it goes live on their website.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

kstrains said:


> Makes me wonder too, because I have preorder for a Mountain that was due in March but keeps being pushed back. Charles Ro Website says July 10th but there has been no mention by any dealer so far for their delivery. I am wondering if they are on hold too. I have my doubts about a July delivery for those engines.


If you look at Lionel's store, they posted a ship date of 8/23 for the Mountains. I'm not sure if that means anything but I'd say you're correct to doubt July delivery.

https://www.lionelstore.com/Missouri-Pacific-LEGACY-USRA-Light-Mountain-Mikado-5307


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

David, I have never been a worshiper of Lionel like many of the folks on these forums are. They start salivating the moment a new catalog release date is announced. IMO, Lionel has been shafting their faithful for the last 20 years and it gets worse every year. I am amazed how many folks are sitting on the edge of their chairs anticipating what will be in the next Lionel catalog and want to contact their dealer within minutes of the release to place an order.

As the ole saying goes, whatever floats your boat, but I have a many, many priorities and the Lionel catalog certainly is not one of them. So for the Lionel faithful, the sun will rise tomorrow whether your must have steamer is in the catalog or not.

Bill


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

It has nothing to do with anything else than everybody wants to be first. It has nothing to do with quality control or anything else than I have to be first.

Lionel though is it's worst enemy by sending the catalogs out before the release date. The day the catalog ships from the printers is the day the catalog should go live. Problem solved.

Helping at the LHS on Saturdays, I get a peak at what's coming but being a grown up I amazingly can keep it to myself. People in the me first generation is the big problem, Lionel being their own worst enemy is the second.

If it has lost its luster people wouldn't be trying to be first to put it on line.

As far as the Challengers, *if true*, I guess we should be happy they caught any potential issues in Concord before they get to the hands of their customers. It's still unacceptable but Lionel needs to take a serious look at the manufacturer if this is the case and double down on QC. People do pay a lot for these trains and shouldn't have to put up with the QC issue that have been showing up as of late. Unfortunately Lionel is at the mercy of their manufacturer BUT that doesn't excuse them from any quality issues.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

It is this simple. If Lionel wanted to keep this catalog secret, they could. 

Therefore, they don't want to . . .

I am certain they are deliberately leaking it, or allowing it to leak, because they think it increases the "tease" factor and that works as a marketing tool. 

Ten to twelve years ago a new Lionel catalog was an event. Now, its not something I had even thought about until someone brought it up here, and it won't be a priority for me to look at and shop. Used to be the day it went on-line I was there making my list. 

I think the "tease" and other marketing razzle-dazzle I see Lionel trying will actually work to increase the number of hits and views and measurable internet activity about their products and brand. They feel that this is a success. I'm fairly certain though, that it won't increase sales. 

There were Lionel catalogs in the past where I literally spent $10K on stuff in them. This one, absolutely I know, will be zero. I think there are alot of people like that. 

Running a business is more than just marketing, particularly this type.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Lee Willis said:


> It is this simple. If Lionel wanted to keep this catalog secret, they could.
> 
> Therefore, they don't want to . . .



I think you're 100% correct.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I really don't care one way or the other. A catalog release was very special to me at one time, now not so much.


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## vash44 (Jan 14, 2018)

I know my 2 cents will differ from many, but to me, the leaks add an extra level of excitement to the catalog. Yes, it can spoil it, but from my point of view it is no different that someone getting a sneak peak at their LHS. I don't have the luxary of living near a shop, so the web leaks are the best viewpoint I have access. Just like the catalog, with every leak I hope that it is a roadname I follow. With the items leaked thus far, between UP and KCS many preorders have been placed.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

Judging from the prolific number of posts on the train forums, it seems enthusiasm is as high as ever for the new Lionel catalog. But, I don't think there is any deliberate leakage nor a policy to keep it under wraps. Rather, its just the way it happens and there's no harm IMO. Lionel's products, especially Legacy motive powered items, still garnish the greatest attention and on-line reviews. 

My hunch is that the vast majority of O-gauge enthusiasts are men in retirement or in their 50s (like me) who are pinned behind a desk for a good part of their day and need a diversion from time-to-time from the grind. Like 10-yr. old kids discussing the latest toys and sports stars, we get passionate and flap our gums, or, hit the keyboards, in our case. 

It is good to see some young chaps getting enthused on all this hype.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2019)

I go back to being a huge Lionel supporter since I was a kid (some 73 years ago). For most of that time, I have looked forward to viewing the new catalogs with excitement. The last one that turned me on was the 2014 Signature catalog.

Two things have occurred since. The products offered since then for the most part have not lit my fire. I recognize that I have a limited appetite based upon the nature of our layout, but prior to 2015, I was typically able to find something to order. The only thing in the 2019 Big Book that appealed to me was the Sante Fe Gold Edition PA's and the images in the catalog were horrible. They look like they were done by a graphic artist drop-out. This set was linked to Lionel's line of 21" passenger cars that once burned, I will never buy again. Thank goodness MTH beat them to the punch and produced a beautiful set of Gold Bonnet PA's. 

Then there is the matter of the lack of quality well discussed here. This alone scares me to plunk down dollars for what could be a hit or miss. Takes a lot of luster off the anticipation of a new Lionel catalog.

I hope that my outlook changes if Lionel makes major changes in the way that it is managed today. I would like to again be anxious to see their new catalogs. 

Bottom line, I did not leave Lionel, Lionel left me (through their actions). My guess is I am not alone.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

You are correct about the me first attitude. Lots of FOAMERS out there with this attitude. I’ll look at it but I am at the saturation point of my collection and am being very particular in what I want.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Paul Kallus said:


> Judging from the prolific number of posts on the train forums, it seems enthusiasm is as high as ever for the new Lionel catalog. But, I don't think there is any deliberate leakage nor a policy to keep it under wraps. Rather, its just the way it happens and there's no harm IMO. ....





Passenger Train Collector said:


> ....
> Then there is the matter of the lack of quality well discussed here. This alone scares me to plunk down dollars for what could be a hit or miss. Takes a lot of luster off the anticipation of a new Lionel catalog.
> 
> I hope that my outlook changes if Lionel makes major changes in the way that it is managed today. I would like to again be anxious to see their new catalogs.
> ...



I think Paul's and Brian's comments represent the conundrum I'm referring to quite accurately. We WANT to be excited, because it's always nice to see new offerings -- even if only out of pure curiosity with no real intention to pre-order. However, I'm also sensing a critical mass of enthusiasts have become somewhat jaded by recent quality problems. And as a result, those quality issues chip away the excitement of looking at a new catalog. 

For me personally, I can no longer get excited by ANY kind of new Lionel passenger train offering -- streamliner or heavyweight -- with the exception of an ala-carte StationSounds diner that might match an existing passenger set already in my roster. And even at that, I hate rolling the dice wondering if the diner is gonna be manufactured by an overseas factory that cuts corners and leaves the electronics exposed for all the world to see -- like my Freedom Train diner. Yes... I can fix that by blocking the windows in front of the electronics, but I shouldn't need to do that after spending $225+ for the dining car. Lionel's factory should be doing that BEFORE final assembly of the car. 

It's yet another example of what Brian stated -- "I did not leave Lionel, Lionel left me (through their actions)".

David


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Just like everyone, I get anxious about receiving a new catalog but my orders are still out on the last one and likely will be for awhile, so what's the rush - from that standpoint. 

I can wait until a free paper copy pops up at my LHS. I am in there virtually every week to put money on deposit for what was previously ordered. I wander over and see if there is a new catalog. 

There are what? 2 a year that count. I no longer care about RTR or Christmas or Equipment catalogs. I can wait. 

As for going totally digital v paper. PLEASE don't drop paper. I refer to the paper catalogs every week. They lay at the foot of my reading chair. I refer to both MTH and Lionel catalogs all the time and I like a chewy readable version over what I see on my computer. 

Lionel knows what they are doing. They have released to pique interest.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

kstrains said:


> I read on the other forum it was a quality problem again. Three engines were taken out of boxes in NC and they all failed in quality. No details given about the quality problems but we can all assume what the problem could possibly be in light of the most recent problems.
> 
> Makes me wonder too, because I have preorder for a Mountain that was due in March but keeps being pushed back. Charles Ro Website says July 10th but there has been no mention by any dealer so far for their delivery. I am wondering if they are on hold too. I have my doubts about a July delivery for those engines.
> 
> ...


Could it be they tested to see if the Challengers would accept an ID change and they failed?
Word is Lionel is still not accepting PAs to fix the ID problem. Looks like another mess like the Mogul fiasco.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Could it be they tested to see if the Challengers would accept an ID change and they failed?
> Word is Lionel is still not accepting PAs to fix the ID problem. Looks like another mess like the Mogul fiasco.
> 
> Pete


At least Lionel is testing them before release. I can only imagine how many would need to be unboxed, fixed, and then shipped. With the service dept still down, it could be just nuts.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> .... Looks like another mess like the Mogul fiasco.
> 
> ....


Yikes!!! Say it ain't so!!!  (But this is PRECISELY the kind of stuff I'm talking about.)

David


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2019)

It's been many years since a new Lionel catalogue was important to me. There's just not a lot that they make that interests me. I have a historical connection to Lionel but, like Brian said, I didn't leave Lionel, they left me a long time ago. For me, the Lionel magic left a long time ago.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I look at the catalogs, and I may even buy something. However, my days of pre-ordering before it hits the market and gets product reviews have passed, Too many times burned!


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

I agree that my interest level is down from what it was 10 years ago. The prices, quality, and honestly, the 2019 catalog looks the same as the 2009 catalog as far as graphics. I've moved on, Lionel hasn't... 

Lastly, and I think a lot of people who replied to this topic feel the same way, I've completed my roster. I have a Lionel Santa Fe scale f3, don't need another one when the old one is still working. This isn't Lionel's fault, just my buying hobby was 10 years ago, now my modeling hobby comes first.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I'm a dabbler overall. And so I have enough O to keep me interested - and I look at the catalogs, although I've recently boxed nearly all my O up and started fiddling with HO. I like the prices there! I have an interest in N also... But I do notice folks say roughly the same thing now for every catalog from them: "Nothing new." is one, and "Wow, why so much?" is the other. As for pre-ordering, I think there's some of this in HO as well -- but it really doesn't appeal to me at all. And in some cases the ridiculous multi-year delivery schedule? No thanks.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I’ve avoided all the leaked Pictures. Easy to do when to don’t visit that other forum much anymore. I’ll review it when it comes out but the little I’ve heard it more them likely will be a pass for me. QC issues keep coming and I’m really worried about my J3 Hudson. I’m trying to be hopeful but one after another release has issues, you can’t make this crap up.


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## mackerel (Oct 9, 2018)

Since I only got back into the hobby last year, I still enjoy the catalogs. I never really look for leaked/early copies but I guess that is because I've never really thought about it. When I see a catalog at Charles RO or at a show I just pick it up. I haven't bought anything from the catalogs yet and I'm not sure if I ever will. There is just too much good stuff out there that is already made and for sale to dive into. I don't need the newest and bestest stuff to be happy. I do like looking at the catalogs to get ideas and just renew my excitement for trains.

What I actually find interesting is how similar the catalogs are between brands. I so far have only had exposure to MTH and Lionel and sometimes get confused as to which brand catalog I am looking at. They don't seem to differentiate themselves very well.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> I’ve avoided all the leaked Pictures. Easy to do when to don’t visit that other forum much anymore. ....


Gary, most of what I've gleaned has come from Facebook posts. Just today, a post from America's Best Train & Hobby Shoppe dated 7/4, popped up in my Facebook NewsFeed. Not sure why it took 5 days to get there, but I've never claimed to understand Facebook's algorithms even on a good day.

Clearly, from the tone of the post, America's Best Trains wasn't the slightest bit concerned about sharing the info before the catalog's official launch date. They indicated they had catalogs in-hand, and anybody who wanted one could stop by the store to grab one. Then the post went on to outline several of the products featured in the catalog. For those of you with Facebook accounts, here's the link:

https://www.facebook.com/97588612850/photos/a.389577072850/10156869864327851/?type=3&theater&ifg=1

David


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> I’ve avoided all the leaked Pictures. Easy to do when to don’t visit that other forum much anymore. I’ll review it when it comes out but the little I’ve heard it more them likely will be a pass for me. QC issues keep coming and I’m really worried about my J3 Hudson. I’m trying to be hopeful but one after another release has issues, you can’t make this crap up.


Largely unheralded are the remakes of the K-Line 4-6-6ts. Too bad about the sky high prices. Had it been priced along the lines of the H10 2-8-0s I might have grabbed one.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Are the making matching passenger/commuter cars? Something Kline failed to produce at the time


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

One wonders besides Lionel always being more $$$ if the tariffs are finding their way into the pricing as well.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Gary, most of what I've gleaned has come from Facebook posts. Just today, a post from America's Best Train & Hobby Shoppe dated 7/4, popped up in my Facebook NewsFeed. Not sure why it took 5 days to get there, but I've never claimed to understand Facebook's algorithms even on a good day.
> 
> Clearly, from the tone of the post, America's Best Trains wasn't the slightest bit concerned about sharing the info before the catalog's official launch date. They indicated they had catalogs in-hand, and anybody who wanted one could stop by the store to grab one. Then the post went on to outline several of the products featured in the catalog. For those of you with Facebook accounts, here's the link:
> 
> ...


David
They are not alone. Cornerfield Hobby and Museum is also advertising on FB that they have the catalogs. I suspect that my LHS has them as well and I'll find out on Saturday when I get there.

AT this point Lionel should just put it on line. MTH, releasing at York seems to work better. Lionel used to be really good at holding the catalog until the online release. Oh well. 

I still look forward to paging through the catalog but from the list I have seen nothing is calling my name so far. As I said, passenger cars will mostly come from MTH except for any Polar Express stuff or sound equipped cars. 

I hate to keep discussing the QC stuff with Ryan, Dean, and Dave because I think these guys know there is an issue but are getting very little help from the top. I think they know there is an issue but are most likely being pushed just to release product. As I said in the past, less product better quality. Cut the cost of warranty repairs and returns and you'll probably make more $$ in the long run.

Again I've been pretty lucky but you can't ignore the problems folks are posting about.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I think QC must be terribly hard from across the ocean. I just get the impression in consumer goods now, the industry as whole moved to a accept a lower level of QC for cost, and a high product turnover rate. I've had it seems an awful lot of cheap stuff from china that you know lasts about a year.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Severn said:


> I think QC must be terribly hard from across the ocean. I just get the impression in consumer goods now, the industry as whole moved to a accept a lower level of QC for cost, and a high product turnover rate. I've had it seems an awful lot of cheap stuff from china that you know lasts about a year.


While having manufacturing overseas is definitely a big obstacle, there has to be a way to improve on that. It take $$ though either in way of better oversight or a better factory.

Back to the catalog, I still look forward to it. Nothing like looking through a new catalog.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

Well deleting seems to be a chore.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> Largely unheralded are the remakes of the K-Line 4-6-6ts. Too bad about the sky high prices. Had it been priced along the lines of the H10 2-8-0s I might have grabbed one.
> 
> Pete


That's cool Pete, too bad they're over-priced. I'd be in for one at a reasonable price. I really like the little tank engines, they're a unique piece.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

Its interesting to read everyone's responses to this thread. 

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of O-gaugers have more than enough trains to enjoy and fix  for the rest of our lives. What keeps Lionel and MTH in business is our propensity to keep buying new items, of which collectors probably make up a good percentage. Factor in new hobbyists to the mix and it appears its a healthy cottage industry. Yet, in any business, there has to be a synergy between the consumers and the manufacturers...otherwise its curtains for the company. Case in point is Harley Davidson, if you know that history, than you know the ups and downs that company went through, with the crux of it being that HD enthusiasts made the difference in the company's survival. I think the same is true for Lionel.

Being a Milw. Road nut I was ecstatic when I read the Lionel 2019 Vol. 1 catalog, although some prices gave me "sticker shock." Case in point is the BiPolar. I remember the first-introduction of Lionel's scale BiPolar around 2007 - I missed it then, and 12-years later is a long time to wait for the 2nd run. Its interesting however, how much higher in price Lionel's BiPolar is over MTH's Premier version ~ close to 40% higher street price. That is huge! Lionel chose to model the streamlined BiPolar (circa early 1950's) over the original 1920's version, but that makes no difference in its desirability to me. Is Legacy and Railsounds in an electric engine worth that much more? It isn't to me, but I pre-ordered anyway because, well, like I said, I am a MR nut. But, it gives me consternation and I will not make a habit of it (I've yet to commit to a Vision Line item due to the ridiculous prices). Interestingly, Lionel's Legacy H10 steamer had a lower street price than the Premier version (side note: the Premier version was actually a model of an H10, whereas Lionel's model is a bit of a stretch). Am not sure why there's such discrepancies between these various models. Come to think of it, Lionel's Vision Line GG1 was about 40% higher than the Premier Version...granted that was a Vision Line item with multiple speakers and catenary sparking effects, but are these features worth a substantial additional price...for an electric engine? I guess they are, to some, then again, perhaps, the Lionel name plays a factor. 

In that same catalog, Lionel announced The Polar Express BiPolar and long-awaited PE StationSounds car - a brilliant work of imagineering and a long-time overdue. Add the scale J3A Hudson, N&W J, PRR J1A, and 2-truck Shays including Christmas and Halloween themed liveries, and copious traditional items, and this made one of the most enjoyable catalogs to become entranced at in recent years. I am still going through it, like a kid studying toys on the back of a cereal box. Actually, about 2/3 of the catalog is made of traditional sized items. Clearly, Lionel designers have the imagination, and licensing deals, that frankly, leave the competition in the dust. 

Lionel is skating on a thin line, though. While the market has demonstrated O-gaugers will shell out more money for a Lionel Legacy model, e.g., Vision Line items, and perhaps even more for traditional items, there could be a "break-point" where QC issues and high-street prices put a damper on folks committing to the "BTO" program, and we'll end up back in the days of dealer wars. Actually, that's already happened to a degree but I don't think its due to QC issues. I've seen the Vision Line Niagara on some decent discounts that put the price back in the lower atmosphere (as opposed to the stratosphere


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

The only luster lost is from the very poor quality photos being reproduced on these pages!


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Plus, has anyone thought that the catalogues could also be aimed at getting newcomers or inexperienced hobbyists into the hobby?

Seems everyone that has commented has done so with their own situation in mind, but there are folks out there that don't have every single train item ever made....


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Paul Kallus said:


> ....
> Lionel is skating on a thin line, though. While the market has demonstrated O-gaugers will shell out more money for a Lionel Legacy model, e.g., Vision Line items, and perhaps even traditional items, there could be a "break-point" where QC issues and high-street prices put a damper on folks committing to the "BTO" program, and we'll end up back in the days of dealer wars. ....


Paul, I think we're already there. I know I am for sure. The irony with all of this is that so much of the quality issues hit within a catalog or two of Lionel going officially BTO. In fact, things are so bad now that even re-issues (i.e., Mogul?) are coming out of the Chinese factories with major engineering problems. Same thing can be said for the 18" Heavyweights. How many years has Lionel been making those? And look at all the issues people encountered late last year / early this year.

I "get it" that we all enjoy looking at new product announcements in the catalogs. That's always fun. But I'd tend to think most folks aren't gluttons for punishment either. And once (or more times) bitten, the realities of today's manufacturing environments can make a dent in one's excitement very quickly when it's time to actually pre-order something.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think it's safe to say that I could never buy another locomotive or rolling stock and be set for life, so "need" isn't in the picture. OTOH, "want" always rears it's ugly head at times and I end up buying something. 

I suspect in the near future, much of the budget will be on scenery for the new layout, so I suspect buying new trains will have a back seat.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Big Jim said:


> The only luster lost is from the very poor quality photos being reproduced on these pages!


Well, you could get a catalog and post your own images...I'm sure the MTF membership would be thankful. Seems more productive to me than complaining.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2019)

In May I sent a request to GRJ to remove my profile as a member of this forum. This may or may not have been a bit of a knee jerk reaction. At the time I had become very frustrated and thought about selling everything train related that we own. My wife asked me to take a step back and take a non biased look as to why we wanted to pursue this hobby in the first place. I realized it was for the sheer enjoyment of it. Not as to what has to be put into it, but, what can be taken from it to achieve that enjoyment. A hobby is not supposed to feel like work.For every positive there is someone ready and willing to provide a negative. Thanks to a gentle nudge from a smart woman I am back on track so to speak. I really like to read new catalogs and refer to them from time to time. I also see no reason to get cranked if that same catalog is posted online earlier than their physical release date. This may or may not just be a marketing ploy by a company. So be it. As for QC issues many companies delay the release of products until after they are more thoroughly tested. This is a win for both the company and the customer. From what I have seen of the L Volume 2 catalog it looks like their is something for almost everybody. I know what I will order and who I will order the items from. Knowing full well that the items will be inspected and tested before they are shipped. Any issues will be dealt with at the dealer level. For that I am grateful and we can experience a big positive from this hobby. 

Enjoy Your Trains,

Gary.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2019)

Good to see you back, Gary. You were missed.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2019)

Old_Hobo said:


> Plus, has anyone thought that the catalogues could also be aimed at getting newcomers or inexperienced hobbyists into the hobby?
> 
> Seems everyone that has commented has done so with their own situation in mind, but there are folks out there that don't have every single train item ever made....


Hobo, Lionel O Gauge catalogues are not what they used to be. The large Legacy Built To Order section comes first. These are expensive 3 rail scale locomotives as well as 3 rail scale freight and passenger cars. 

Next is about 10 pages of LionChief Plus 2.0 semi-scale locomotives in the mid price range. (Not in every catalogue)

Then there is the large section of starter sets, traditional rolling stock, accessories and the like. This section is mostly for the beginner but also for more experienced guys who enjoy sets and the like. 

Most of us are commenting on the Legacy BTO section of the catalogue. The only section of the catalogue that is of any interest to me is the LionChief Plus 2.0 section. Fortunately for me LC+ 2.0 isn't Built To Order so I can wait and see whether or not the one locomotive that I'm interested in has defects similar to a number of recently made Legacy locomotives.


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## Paul Kallus (Jan 15, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Paul, I think we're already there. I know I am for sure. The irony with all of this is that so much of the quality issues hit within a catalog or two of Lionel going officially BTO. In fact, things are so bad now that even re-issues (i.e., Mogul?) are coming out of the Chinese factories with major engineering problems. Same thing can be said for the 18" Heavyweights. How many years has Lionel been making those? And look at all the issues people encountered late last year / early this year.
> 
> I "get it" that we all enjoy looking at new product announcements in the catalogs. That's always fun. But I'd tend to think most folks aren't gluttons for punishment either. And once (or more times) bitten, the realities of today's manufacturing environments can make a dent in one's excitement very quickly when it's time to actually pre-order something.
> 
> David


I fully understand, Dave. I had 12-defective heavyweight cars in my order last Christmas (scale Polar Express and PRSL cars). While a PITA, between the techs at Charles Ro and myself, we got them all squared away. Will the trucks hold-up - only time will tell. For me, it was big inconvenience, but, Lionel is the only company making Polar Express items, so I am a bit bias and am willing to hang in there a little while longer. 

The pertinent question is: has QC become worse in the past few years then it was in the late 1990's and 2000's? I can cite quite a few fiasco's that I experienced from all the major importers since getting back in the hobby in the late 1990's, and, I cringe at how much of my hard-earned money went down the drain. 

I honestly don't know if things have gotten worse or not, suffice it to say, there were numerous times over the past 2+ decades I swore I was done buying new trains. And, it'll undoubtedly happen again


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

If you measure hard copy catalogs by the interest they generate then this latest one from Lionel has been a resounding success - for Lionel, and whether or not they have in fact been canny about the catalog timing or tolerating leaks. For example, over on the other place, screenshots of a substantial number of the pages dealing with newer scale products have been posted, which in a couple of cases I have found interesting (while the rest just make me shake my head). 

However, maybe more to the point, despite the QC issues of which we are all painfully aware, more people who have posted comments are announcing buying intentions than are saying they will wait and see how the product comes out. 

Well, go figure.


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

86TA355SR said:


> Well, you could get a catalog and post your own images...I'm sure the MTF membership would be thankful. Seems more productive to me than complaining.


I have my own catalog and I wouldn't think of taking my own sorry photos and making the forum suffer through them! As I said on another forum, I was in no hurry to see what was inside the new catalog. I was content to wait in order that I could actually clearly see and read what was being offered. It just so happened that after left the barber shop, I stopped at the hobby shop next door to say Hi and was offered a catalog.

And for the record, I wasn't complaining. I was just stating FACT!!!

Suffice it say that the manufacturers do a top notch job posting their catalogs on their web sites.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2019)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Good to see you back, Gary. You were missed.


Thanks Brian. Very much appreciated. If you speak to Lee W. please wish him a speedy recovery.

Sincerely,

Gary.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

From what I have seen in the latest issue from Lionel, it looks like my CC is safe.

Bill


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## JoeSaggese (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalogs don't do anything for me. At this point in life I'm not a collector and don't know if Ill ever be. As long as my few pieces of rolling stock continue to roll and my engines run, Ill be happy.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Oh just forgettaboutit, Lionel... at this point, just put the catalog online rather than wait another week and a half!!!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Lionel changed the catalog release date to July 15th.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> Lionel changed the catalog release date to July 15th.
> 
> ....


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Now that’s funny


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

superwarp1 said:


> Now that’s funny


Yeah... or sad. 

I assumed they released the paper catalog early to brick and mortar stores to create buzz and perhaps give the LHS's a little boost. 

Now, if they're going to move up the online catalog to June 15th, it makes it look like they bungled the release. Weird.


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## Pebo (Sep 27, 2015)

beachhead2 said:


> Yeah... or sad.
> 
> I assumed they released the paper catalog early to brick and mortar stores to create buzz and perhaps give the LHS's a little boost.
> 
> Now, if they're going to move up the online catalog to June 15th, it makes it look like they bungled the release. Weird.


Or, since the catalog is now out there, are they just being fair to those of us who don’t have a “brick and mortar” shop within a reasonable distance?

Peter


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

The annual price increases could also be causing some hesitation in opening up the check book.

Bill


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

After it hit the LHS and was posted all over the internet there was no reason to hold it until the 22nd.

As far as price increases, the looming possible tariffs probably are not helping. Even if there is a resolutions a business has to plan that it will happen or stay in effect. I can't imagine how much they less they are making on items that are getting hit now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Right now the tariffs are not hitting model trains, but by the time they ship, who knows! I suspect anyone that pre-orders could experience sticker-shock if a 25% tariff is slapped on them, I'm sure Lionel won't eat that!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Scott Mann has statement on 3rdrail’s website saying yeah no tariffs.


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

MartyE said:


> After it hit the LHS and was posted all over the internet there was no reason to hold it until the 22nd.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Notch 6 is releasing his podcast of the catalog on Monday. Derek said that the catalogs were delivered by the printer one week early so sounds like Lionel is unveiling the catalog on Monday if Derek is posting his podcast. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

That sounds great. Just to swim against the tide, I may stop at my local hobby shop anyway -- pick one up. I mean what could possibly go wrong there?! I'm sure there's not a thing of interest in the whole place for me...


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