# Lionel Norfolk Southern Theatre Car: More Questions Than Answers!



## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hi Folks,

This isn't exactly a review of the new theatre car... but rather it's a thread that presents this offering as one that asks more questions than it answers -- especially now that the Norfolk Southern version of the theatre car has been delivered... and we can see what we got!!! 

Those of you who may have ordered the UP, CSX and Conrail versions already have a train to coordinate with the new threatre car. However those of us who ordered the Norfolk Southern version now have a dilemma. Here are some photos... and you'll see what I'm talking about:


*Photo1: Paint comparison of MTH NS OCS car (top row) vs. Lionel NS OCS car (bottom row)*









*Photo2: Paint comparison of MTH NS OCS car (top row) vs. Lionel NS OCS car (bottom row)*









As I see it, the new Lionel NS theatre car had two audiences when it was cataloged: some folks (like me) purchased it hoping to use the car as an alternative end-car for the MTH NS OCS train that has been delivered twice -- once many years ago as part of MTH's DAP (very limited quantities), and then again a few years ago essentially as a BTO item. The other potential audience for this NS car comprises those folks who figured Lionel was offering the NS livery as part of this theatre car production run now, but would then offer a full Lionel OCS train in the near future.

By looking at the photo comparisons, it's pretty clear that those in the first market segment I described above are gonna be very disappointed. I'm a pretty forgiving guy when it comes to color variations, but what's illustrated in the above photos is just WAY too different for me. Which importer got it right? And which importer got it wrong?  Well therein lies the debate. MTH's two different offerings of the NS OCS train are pretty much a match of colors -- very much like N&W passenger trains (i.e., Powhatan Arrow) I already own. Whereas the new Lionel NS theatre car has a noticeably REDDISH tint to it -- almost a match to the red caboose and locomotive partially in view in the above photos.

As an FYI... word on the street is Lionel personnel visited Altoona to match colors with the prototype NS OCS train. But it will be VERY interesting to compare the paint on the delivered product with the real deal. To my eyes, what Lionel delivered is a bit more RED than it should be. And in case anybody is interested -- although I didn't yet photograph it, I also received Lionel's new R&N full-dome stationsounds car, and THAT color pretty much matches up with the Lionel NS theatre car when looking at both cars side by side. So in real life, I'm not sure if those two liveries are identical or if there's a noticeable difference.

Now Lionel has already catalog'd a complete R&N train, so hopefully the remaining cars to be delivered will match the newly released R&N stationsounds car. However, Lionel has yet to announce/catalog a full NS OCS train. And if they do, one would hope that their complete offering also matches the paint they used on their NS Theatre Car.

Bottom line.... those of us who thought this NS theatre car would make a cool end-car to the MTH NS OCS train are out of luck. But do we return the car, and just live with the existing complement of MTH passenger cars -- which is a darn nice offering, by the way?

Or do we keep the Lionel NS theatre car in hopes of seeing a complete (and matching) Lionel NS OCS train in the next catalog?

The locomotives are not an issue, since we could use the existing MTH NS OCS F7's in their tuxedo black/white paint-scheme with any vendor's cars. The MTH NS OCS F7's have cool announcements with NS's CEO at the time. But then Lionel's future offering may utilize the company's newest F3/F7 Legacy Railsounds package, which is arguably the best-sounding Railsounds of F3/F7 locomotives EVER.

So therein lies the dilemma for those of us who pre-ordered Lionel's "lone" Theatre Car sight-unseen. But perhaps I can make the decision as simple as it can get: namely, if you bought this car to match your existing MTH NS OCS train, then forgettaboudit. Return the thing while you can... or CANCEL the order if it hasn't shipped yet.

But if you bought the NS theatre car in hopes of Lionel's own future NS OCS train, then you gotta ask yourself how lucky you feel that Lionel will follow through and offer their own NS OCS train soon?

I don't know about you... but given the volatility of overseas labor markets these days, I'd feel much more comfortable buying something like this if I saw a commitment that the ENTIRE TRAIN would be offered -- not just pieces over time.  Some days, I just wish Lionel would publish a much smaller catalog that's well-designed and well-thought-out... you know, something like 30 or 40 pages of well-researched product offerings rather than 200+ page mini-phone book catalogs where we don't know what we're getting until products are unpacked in North Carolina. 

Enough questions to ponder??? 

David


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Nice review, but I feel sorry for people that color is very important to. That is most likely the majority of us. On a brighter note it looks like the UP version matches much better.

Art


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

Why would you think that Lionel is going to try to match an MTH color?


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

As is always the case, lighting can make a big difference. But here's a photo of the real deal in what appears to be a clear -- but not bright/harsh sunshine -- day:










You be the judge. 

David

P.S. The other issue with photos always centers around proper color balance and/or whether post-processing involved artificial color boost/saturation or vibrancy. That's why it's important to always go to the source to get the best paint-matching samples.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Big Jim said:


> Why would you think that Lionel is going to try to match an MTH color?
> ...


I wouldn't expect that Lionel's sole "goal" in offering this car would be to match MTH's color -- especially if MTH's color is more reminiscent of N&W passenger car colors instead of the real NS OCS train colors. I'd presume most folks didn't even question MTH's NS OCS paint, after it's been the defacto NS OCS model since MTH's first offering of it as a DAP in 2007. 

However, I _would_ expect Lionel to put its money where its mouth is and announce the entire train -- especially given the problems all importers are running into with instability of Chinese factories in recent months/years. What good is offering a trailing threatre car, if there's no "train" on which to use it? 

Note: I hit MTH with the same question at York for two shows, when they catalog'd and delivered a Rocky Mountaineer locomotive with no passenger cars. And to MTH's credit, they did follow-up with an entire Rocky Mountaineer train with passenger cars and two more locomotives -- albeit a couple of catalogs later. 

David


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

I glad I did not preorder this one specially for the cost. It's disappointing that Lionel continues to make the colors wrong. I think MTH's color is correct. I wonder if MTH will ever try to make a theater car but I know for them it seems like the tooling cost has stopped them from producing it. On the other hand the lighting on the back is nice and I heard watching the live feed from the camera is cool. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm glad I don't model NS passenger cars! I do model the SP Daylights and the color variations between Lionel, MTH and (most accurately) GGD are small enough to live with, except for a purist (which I am not). 

The paint on the Lionel NS theater car is not prototypical; it is definitely too light and too red. I'd normally put that down to a factory mistake but another possibility (I suppose) is that Lionel will catalog further NS cars in the same finish and are hoping that people will buy them to complement the theater car and the other recently delivered NS passenger car, the StationSounds dome car (see below). (*BELATED CORRECTION*: the StationSounds Dome Car is not NS but Reading and Northern; however it sure looks to be the same color as the NS theater car.) There are probably enough people around who would buy them on that basis rather than going for the existing MTH or another manufacturer's finish. 

The finish on the Reading and Northern 21" StationSounds dome car matches the theater car or at least as far as I can see. Here's a couple of photos of that car that I have seen over on the other place together with the Lionel catalog illustration - although the copy of that inserted below is much darker than it appears on the Lionel website:























You have to make allowance for the lighting (see another photo below) but to me the color looks more like cherry bomb red than maroon.

In different lighting - actually in shadow - the NS theater car color looks closer to the darker prototype:









But someone has also posted photos of the Lionel car with a GGD NS dome car and the difference is really significant/blatantly obvious:
















I don't have a dog in this fight but I do have the Lionel UP Excursion Train cars and in that case it looks like Lionel has matched the UP theater car to the yellow of their Excursion cars. Also from the other place come these photos:
















My UP Fox River theater car is still in transit so I have not done my own comparison but from the above the color match looks good enough for me. But that also suggest to me that with the NS cars Lionel has deliberately chosen to paint its cars a color that does not match other manufacturers' products.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Big time bummer David. I have to ask the question, why spend the big bucks on an entire passenger train if the color is wrong.

Bill


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Ok - I gotta ask...what the heck is a "theatre car?"

Are they performing CATS in there or what?


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> I wouldn't expect that Lionel's sole "goal" in offering this car would be to match MTH's color --


I hate to sound cynical - but from a business perspective I would expect LIONEL would ABSOLUTELY use a different color/tone.

Why?

Because now you have to buy the rest of the LIONEL cars to have a matching set!

The idea that LIONEL would make the "cake icer" for another brand - and have to answer for it, seems to set the bar a bit high - especially when you have apprehensions about LIONEL matching their own product!

Id say you already answered your own question - you just need to follow your own advice!



> However, I would expect Lionel to put its money where its mouth is and announce the entire train -- especially given the problems all importers are running into with instability of Chinese factories in recent months/years. What good is offering a trailing threatre car, if there's no "train" on which to use it?


In the absence of that confidence - its up to you as the consumer to make an informed choice and say no thank you.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Roving Sign said:


> I hate to sound cynical - but from a business perspective I would expect LIONEL would ABSOLUTELY use a different color/tone.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


That all makes sense to me - and no pun intended by putting some text in red, not quite NS-matching, type. 

Without Lionel stating an intention to offer an NS Business Train, maybe the NS theater car is a way to elevate and/or gauge interest in such an offering. That seems to me to be more likely than creating something that as a standalone product may have limited appeal. 

Or maybe Lionel knows its passenger car customer base better than I am crediting and believes many of us will just default to buying its matching cars if/when it makes them. 

I for one am not taking the bait if that's what it is.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

For you guys that have this car along with the last run of 21" cars have they made any improvments in the couplers? Seems like the previous run had issues with drooping and broken couplers.
I have been reluctant to get any of the new 21" cars until Lionel cleans up its act.

Pete


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## Vincent (Jan 28, 2018)

Roving Sign said:


> Ok - I gotta ask...what the heck is a "theatre car?"
> 
> Are they performing CATS in there or what?


I'm glad that someone besides me doesn't know. They were passenger cars with a large window on one end. They were often reserved for VIPs, and they were also used for track inspection.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm not a N&S expert by any means, but even given the lighting element, the color looks way off. 

There's no predicting what we'll see next from Lionel.

3RS is a strange market-consumers are very forgiving of errors and craftmanship.

The UP version is not prototypical, the windows are in the wrong locations. Thanks for the pictures, glad I passed.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> For you guys that have this car along with the last run of 21" cars have they made any improvments in the couplers? Seems like the previous run had issues with drooping and broken couplers.
> I have been reluctant to get any of the new 21" cars until Lionel cleans up its act.
> 
> Pete


Pete, can't help you there buddy... I've already packed my Norfolk Southern theatre car back up for a return after I photographed it last night. I'm keeping the R&N dome car, however, since I've also ordered the full set of R&N passenger cars... and I do like the color of the car -- just not the right color (in my eyes anyway) for a NS "add-on" to my existing MTH NS OCS train. No sense wasting money, and for my needs the MTH NS OCS train I purchased a couple of years ago works absolutely fine for me. It just would have been nice to have the option of a theatre car carrying up the rear of the train. But life will go on....

In any event, I'll let you know how the R&N passenger cars stack up when the complete train arrives. Hopefully, I won't need to wire-tie the couplers shut like I needed to do with my Penn Central passenger set earlier this year.  Meanwhile, perhaps folks ordering the new UP and the new L&N passenger set can chime in on how those are holding up right out of the box.

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

How many of the little people are included with the theatre car.

Bill


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

seayakbill said:


> How many of the little people are included with the theatre car.
> 
> Bill


ZERO. But that's now standard operating procedure with Lionel nowadays. For $250+ you get the privilege of populating Lionel passenger cars as a DIY project.


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

Does the color of the Lionel NS inspection car match the color of the other Lionel N&W cars? 
It has been my opinion that the Lionel color was very close to the 50's color and the color of the MTH cars (having a slight purple tint) was a good match for the later "metallic" color.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hhhhmmmmm.... now here's an idea that crossed my mind earlier this afternoon after I responded to Pete. 

Of course, *after* I re-packed the NS Theatre Car for return shipment, I got to thinking... since it's such a cool-looking car AND it matches the color of Lionel's new R&N StationSounds car exactly, why not keep the NS Theatre Car for use with the R&N train -- making a "guest appearance" as the end-car on the R&N train once and awhile? Lionel does offer a 2-pack containing an R&N observation, but it's always nice to change things up, right??? 

Meanwhile, I'll keep the MTH NS OCS train intact with all-MTH motive power and rolling stock, since I'm quite happy with that offering. The Lionel NS Theatre Car would have been a nice bonus for that train had the colors matched. But they don't, and I think my "Plan B" has some serious merit, so I'll sleep on it before making a final decision. 

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> ZERO. But that's now standard operating procedure with Lionel nowadays. For $250+ you get the privilege of populating Lionel passenger cars as a DIY project.


For the price you would think that it would be loaded with the little folks.

Bill


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

This isn’t the best shot of the RBMN full dome car. There was a bit of condensation on the sides. But the color of the Lionel version in HarborBelt’s post is obviously more REDDISH than the real deal.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

There seem to be lots of images of the R&N dome car around and they all indicate that Lionel decided to opt for a different color than the prototype for reasons only known to themselves. Here's a couple more:
















For good measure here's one of the NS business train running with the theater car:









Looking at the MTH and Lionel catalog illustrations, it's obvious MTH tried to match the dome car prototype color but Lionel didn't. Unfortunately the Lionel illustration doesn't reproduce accurately so does not show how bright red it is unless you click on the image and enlarge it:
















So this is not a case of the Lionel catalog image being inaccurate; they obviously decided on a particular color and followed through.


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