# Grades, Helix, Power



## Jammer Six (Feb 10, 2011)

So, (being brand new) I have a question.

If I build a helix, to move trains between levels, why wouldn't I use a fairly steep grade to do it efficiently?

The folks in the DCC forum tell me that I can lashup engines to gain pulling power, and that's the only issue I see.

What I'm thinking is a grade steep enough to require two or more engines to move decent size trains between levels, and making the top level a mountain pass.

Therefore, you wouldn't want the helix to be something a small switcher could negotiate pulling 20 cars.


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## TONOFFUN80 (Jan 9, 2010)

you could run a fairly steep grade but to run the larger road engines you'd want 22" min. radius. fairly steep would be in the 3%-4% range


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

You're also pulling through a constant corner which increases the need for pulling power while on a grade. There isn't anything wrong with it if that's what you want to do. In fact, many people like the operating interest of having to add motive power at the bottom of a grade as solely helper engines that then disconnect at the top and return to the bottom of the grade. (just like in real life.) 

If you go with a 24" radius helix (I like 24R as a minimum because most rolling stock, even newer longer stuff will work on it) and a 4" clearance minimum you're looking at a 2.7% grade (not all that bad if you want to add power to run long trains.) (22" R bumps it up to a 2.9% grade)

For me, the helix won't be a visible part of the railroad, just a means for the trains to enter/exit the various levels (scenes) on the layout.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If I go to the trouble of building a helix, it'll be visible!


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

Good question and welcome to the forum Jammer Six. Some great guys here who have the know how for what you are asking. I can't advise you yet on Helix or grade but I am learning everyday. I will let you know if my wanna be Helix works! If it does it really changes how I might landscape this end of town.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Isn't that big block of wood going to get in the way of the tracks.


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

Arghhhhhh........ John..... I knew I shouldn't have used that pic without an explanation. Lol. Temporary blocks only. Can't I just run the flex around????    

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6588


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I really figured that's what you were doing, but it was too tempting a target.


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## Zeus-cat (Feb 5, 2011)

I have seen several references to having a 3-4% grade maximum. That helix you are building looks a lot steeper than that concretepumper. Any idea on what the grade is?

So do you really pump concrete? My neighbor saws concrete.


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

Zeus-cat said:


> I have seen several references to having a 3-4% grade maximum. That helix you are building looks a lot steeper than that concretepumper. Any idea on what the grade is?
> 
> So do you really pump concrete? My neighbor saws concrete.



I stuck to 1" rise per 3 feet. I think that makes 2 1/2 or 3 % (Somebody please correct me) not sure but I do know my new little Atlas Engine will pull anything up it without missing a beat. No wheel spin. The tyco and lifelike Engines with traction tires really sucked climbing up. It was like a Hill Climb @ Pikes peak trying to hit it running and don't stop 1/2 way! 

Yes I pump Concrete. I Own / operate a Pea gravel line pump. Its not fun or easy and here in California new rules and regulations (EPA :bs: ) Etc. are making it very difficult to operate. Anywho.... 

I updated this today. 

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6588&page=5


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

1" in 3 feet would be a 2.7% grade 

(1/36)*100


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## concretepumper (Jan 2, 2011)

:thumbsup: Thank you Sir!


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Jammer Six said:


> So, (being brand new) I have a question.
> 
> If I build a helix, to move trains between levels, why wouldn't I use a fairly steep grade to do it efficiently?


What's your idea of efficient? Mine would be to use a little more track and material and not have to worry about whether my train will make it up the grade or not. You can always add more locos to the consist for longer trains to take the strain off, but if you make it to steep, you run the risk of not making it at all which then you have to drop some cars and try again. Doesnt sound too efficient to me, but that's my opinion.


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