# Ready To Advance....



## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

Hey guys. Ok, I have been building my layout going in to my 4th month now. I have been running two separate trains on two separate tracks on separate speed controllers. I think I am ready to advance just a hair. I recently just added on to my table and added a very small rail yard. I only did that because I ended up with 4 locomotives, a freight train that was getting too long for my small layout, and I only have two tracks. So, I have the freight cars divided into two trains and added two turnouts. So now I can store one freight train as I am running the other.

Now I want to have my passenger train, that is running the inside track, to be able to crossover to the outside track and access the rail yard as well. And vice-versa, be able to park the passenger train from time to time and run two freight trains, or just trade tracks sometimes. Have the passenger run the outside track and the freight run the inside, and switch off between the two tracks and the three trains.

Is that doable on a non DCC system, and is it doable with two separate speed controllers? Or do I have to upgrade to DCC to do that?


Here is my layout in it's current state;










The inside track is the passenger train. No access to the outside track, which means no access to the rail yard.

Here are my controllers;










This one controls the passenger train on the inside track.












This one controls the outside track, the two turnouts, and (for some reason) it only powers one side of the two rail yard sidings.


Is what I am wanting to do, make both tracks and the rail yard accessible to every train doable on this setup?


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes it is doable. I ran a similar layout in DC. Two ovals connected by a 4 switch interchange with sidings off the inner loop. One transformer controlled the outer loop, and the other controlled the inner loop and sidings. You will need insulated joiners and wire blocks using Atlas 205 connectors. To start, you need to use insulated joiners between the turnouts to isolate the inner loop from the outer loop. The inner and outer loops each need to be split into 2 blocks so you can stop one train while switching another train from one loop to the other - one train stopped in one block that is turned off, the other pulling onto the live block. The sidings must be separated from the inner loop with insulated joiners and power run separately to the siding. So in all you have 5 blocks - 2 on each oval, 1 for the sidings. You can separate the sidings by making each siding a block and isolating it from the other siding.


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

DavefromMD said:


> Yes it is doable. I ran a similar layout in DC. Two ovals connected by a 4 switch interchange with sidings off the inner loop. One transformer controlled the outer loop, and the other controlled the inner loop and sidings. You will need insulated joiners and wire blocks using Atlas 205 connectors. To start, you need to use insulated joiners between the turnouts to isolate the inner loop from the outer loop. The inner and outer loops each need to be split into 2 blocks so you can stop one train while switching another train from one loop to the other - one train stopped in one block that is turned off, the other pulling onto the live block. The sidings must be separated from the inner loop with insulated joiners and power run separately to the siding. So in all you have 5 blocks - 2 on each oval, 1 for the sidings. You can separate the sidings by making each siding a block and isolating it from the other siding.


:dunno:

I thought you all spoke English in MD..........


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*DCC may be in the future???*

Vegas N, You may also want to reference an Atlas wiring control booklet, There, you will 
find out how to run two trains,and a yard at the same time, using two or three variable dc power supplies.They have entry level controls and have electrical drawings that guide the beginner's questions on electrical controls for trains.
Good luck expanding your knowledge, and your ho railroading empire. After awhile you can upgrade to digital command and control(DCC) Best wishes, there! Regards,tr1


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Basically... This is an outline of the process -- many details are omitted. But it will give you a framework to help understand how a DC system works.

(1) you need to divide your layout into blocks, which are separated by insulated rail joiners. (Don't worry about where to put the insulated joiners for now. This is just a basic outline of the process.)

(2) you need to construct a control panel. Both transformers will be connected to the control panel. Also, each block will be wired to the control panel.

(3) On the control panel are a bunch of switches that are used to decide which transformer will be sending power to which blocks of track.

(4) If you have only one locomotive on the layout, switch all of the blocks to one transformer and go wherever you want.

(5) If you have two locomotives on the layout, you have to use the switches to send Transformer A's power to the blocks that Train 1 will be operating on. And you send Transformer B's power to the blocks that Train 2 will be operating on.

(6) If you want to move Train 2 to blocks that have been vacated by Train 1, then you switch those blocks from Transformer A to Transformer B.

(7) So, basically each transformer is assigned to a specific loco. (The transformers are usually referred to as Cab A and Cab B -- after the locomotive cab that they are temporarily assigned to.)

(8) If you turn the wrong switch, your loco will stop -- either because it is not getting power, or it tried to cross from a block assigned to Cab A to a block assigned to Cab B -- which creates a short.

(9) With this system, you can operate ANY two locos simultaneously. Operating 3 or more locos gets VERY complicated with DC. Stick to 2 at once. The locos that are not being used should be sitting on sidings that are turned off -- so that they will not receive power from either transformer.

(10) If you accidentally leave two locos on track assigned to the same transformer, both will move at the same time -- but they can not be controlled separately.

(11) When I was learning all of this, I used the Kalmbach: Easy Model Railroad Wiring, 2nd ed. 1999

http://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroad-Wiring-Second-Railroader/dp/0890243492

This is an excellent book on all aspects of DC wiring, laid out for beginners up to more advanced problems (like reversing loops and turntables). There is a short section on DCC, but it is not complete.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

One other thing -- regarding your transformers.

They are low-grade versions. Higher quality transformers have larger dials that give you finer control, and more importantly an overload indicator light. If you create a short (and you certainly will when working in DC), the overload light will come on and the power will automatically be turned off. This protects your locos from damage.

MRC makes a good line of DC transformers.

http://www.modelrectifier.com/train-controls/dc-power.asp

Lots of their used ones show up on eBay for reasonable prices. My DC layout is powered by two of their Tech II 2400 models. One is over 20 years old and still works perfectly.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Hey VegasN. If you don't understand something because of the terminology or the explanation isn't clear to you, it is better to just ask for clarification than to try and be clever. The attempt at cleverness comes across as insulting to someone who is trying to help. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not put you on my do not help list.

I've done exactly what you want to do.


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

tr1, DCC may be in my future, but distant future.

MtRR75, thank you. That was helpful information. Someone who understands you have to dumb down some explanations for new people. Thank you also for the direction to some useful resources. I think that book may prove to be invaluable.

MD......it was humor. Help me or not, the internet is a wealth of information.


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

MtRR75 said:


> One other thing -- regarding your transformers.
> 
> They are low-grade versions. Higher quality transformers have larger dials that give you finer control, and more importantly an overload indicator light. If you create a short (and you certainly will when working in DC), the overload light will come on and the power will automatically be turned off. This protects your locos from damage.
> 
> ...



Wow.....I really like the Tech 7......$109?? Doable, but it would be all I get for the layout that pay period......
Kind of a scary thought. I mean, I have only been in the hobby for 4 months....been having problems, even this small, with track layout, derailing, etc. Kinda nervous about going this deep, this soon.....


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Here's a link to perhaps the best online supplier of all things train related. Wide selection, low prices, excellent customer service. Many on this board will vouche for them.

This is to the transformer page. You will find the Tech 7 for much less than $109. There are also other options that would serve you just as well that are even less expensive. I ran my DC 4 x 8 layout with 2 MRC Railpower 1370s. Had power to spare running 4 trains.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/DC-Power-Supplies-HO-N-Z-Scales-s/780.htm


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

VegasN said:


> Wow.....I really like the Tech 7......$109?? Doable, but it would be all I get for the layout that pay period......
> Kind of a scary thought. I mean, I have only been in the hobby for 4 months....been having problems, even this small, with track layout, derailing, etc. Kinda nervous about going this deep, this soon.....


I suggest that before you get a new transformer, that you start by figuring out how many blocks you will need in your layout. The easiest way to do that is to post a diagram of your layout here, and let the experts weight in with their advice. Some of the blocks will be obvious. Others may be a matter of preference, depending on how you plan to run your trains.

Once you get this done (which costs nothing), you can start figuring out your wiring -- and how many switches you will need to set up your control panel. Then, when you see how much wiring you will need to do, you may reconsider going to DCC from the start.

If you start with DC and later go to DCC, the wiring and insulated joiners can stay on a DCC layout -- maybe a few more wires than you need, but no need to rewire for DCC. However, the control panel of switches for the blocks will become obsolete. So before you start the control panel, make sure that you want to stay with DC for a while.

Also, regarding the control panel... Some modelers put their turnout control switches on the same panel as the block switches. Some modelers separate the two types of switches onto different control panels. Other modelers use manual throws for their turnouts, and avoid those switches entirely.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Regarding derailments, there is a whole list of potential causes -- both track problems and rolling stock problems. I see that you are using the track with the roadbed attached. I have no idea if that kind of track is prone to derailments or not. (I do HO, and have no N-scale experience.) I suggest that you post a question about troubleshooting derailments in the N-scale section, where you should get some responses from N-scalers.


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

I'm basically in the same spot you are in with my layout. I was lucky enough to find a big bag of DC controllers and the Atlas 205's on Craigslist, so it didn't cost me much to run dual DC cabs. I quickly found that when I started pricing things if I bought them new it was about the same cost to get an entry level DCC system. My current system uses 3 cabs, one atlas 205, and a CTI Train Brain system connected to a computer. All these electronics and both of my locos cost me $35 total on Craigslist. I plan on going DCC in the future, and wouldn't have invested so much time on the DC stuff if it wasn't so cheap.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I think you may want to just sit down and think about the various options outlined. If you find all the wiring with blocks and insulated sections too intimidating you might just want to wait until you can afford DCC. It makes the wiring a piece of cake, plus you get other advantages and gives the hobby a new dimension. You can pick up used or discounted equipment quite reasonably now.


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

DavefromMD said:


> Here's a link to perhaps the best online supplier of all things train related. Wide selection, low prices, excellent customer service. Many on this board will vouche for them.
> 
> This is to the transformer page. You will find the Tech 7 for much less than $109. There are also other options that would serve you just as well that are even less expensive. I ran my DC 4 x 8 layout with 2 MRC Railpower 1370s. Had power to spare running 4 trains.
> http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/DC-Power-Supplies-HO-N-Z-Scales-s/780.htm



I have heard of model train stuff. Never checked them out yet though. Been kinda stuck on hobbylinc. Much less than 109 sounds right up my alley. 4 trains? That sounds like a whole lot of fun. Does it ever get hectic running that many trains at once though? I up to now obviously can run 2 with no interaction at all really. I guess I just want more interaction with the trains themselves, not just on scenery all the time, does that make sense? Then I wonder am I just expecting too much too soon....


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

@MtRR75:
I think posting a diagram is an excellent idea. I'll draw one up with what I have now and with what I would like. I do think I will stay DC for awhile. At least until I get this layout done, or if I am able to get more room to expand, then go DCC with the layout I WANT. I thought about manual switches, but, in reality, I was kidding myself, I am just too lazy for all that. As for the derailments, I believe it is a combination of cheap rolling stock with crappy trucks, or weight issues and/or car positioning issues, and track issues. It's something I need to take some time and weigh down cars that need it, replace trucks or cars as needed and reset some areas of track. Also, my locomotives need serviced, all used except one. 

sachsr1: Yes, I agree. Pricing was the exact reason I didn't just start with DCC. I'll stick with DC until I can expand.

@Cycleops: I have given this some thought. Since I am new to the hobby, and my first layout is not even 1/5 being done, I am working on a budget and have so many scenery things to still get, and since I do want to switch tracks and trains from time to time. If I can do what I am hoping to do, I think that will set me good to have more interactive fun with the trains and layout I have now until I can get more room to make it bigger. Then, once I start moving my trains to other towns and locations, yes, I will insist that all be DCC. Does that make sense or is it just kind of newbie foolishness?


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

VegasN said:


> @MtRR75:
> 
> @Cycleops: I have given this some thought. Since I am new to the hobby, and my first layout is not even 1/5 being done, I am working on a budget and have so many scenery things to still get, and since I do want to switch tracks and trains from time to time. If I can do what I am hoping to do, I think that will set me good to have more interactive fun with the trains and layout I have now until I can get more room to make it bigger. Then, once I start moving my trains to other towns and locations, yes, I will insist that all be DCC. Does that make sense or is it just kind of newbie foolishness?


If it makes sense to you, then it is the right thing to do. Rule no. 1 in model railroading is, "It's your railroad, you can do what you want."

Some people learn better by taking things one step at a time. Others prefer to jump in with both feet and go for their final goal from the start. Do what works for you.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Running 4 trains on a double oval with DC gets a little hectic. Since you can't control the speed of an individual train, but only control the speed in a block or turn off the power to a block to stop a train, you had to stay on top of it. I had more than my share of collisions, especially when switching trains between the inner and outer oval.

Its easier with DCC since you can control the speed of each individual train, but I still have some collisions - just fewer and usually because I call up the wrong locomotive to slow down or speed up.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MtRR75 said:


> If it makes sense to you, then it is the right thing to do. Rule no. 1 in model railroading is, "It's your railroad, you can do what you want."
> 
> Some people learn better by taking things one step at a time. Others prefer to jump in with both feet and go for their final goal from the start. Do what works for you.


Best advice yet!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*DC or DCC?*



VegasN said:


> Wow.....I really like the Tech 7......$109?? Doable, but it would be all I get for the layout that pay period......
> Kind of a scary thought. I mean, I have only been in the hobby for 4 months....been having problems, even this small, with track layout, derailing, etc. Kinda nervous about going this deep, this soon.....


 VegasN;

Running two or more trains on DC involves one of two schemes. I think you may already be running one on each loop, and want to be able to cross from inside to outside loop, and into the yard. Is that what you are doing now? That's a workable, and fairly simple system. You need one of your power packs for each loop, just as you are doing now. Ideally a third power pack would be dedicated to the yard. The two loops, and the yard should be connected with plastic insulated rail joiners. This keeps one power pack from interfering with another. I once belonged to a club that had their very large railroad(25 N scale miles of main line) set up this way. It worked fine with multiple trains running. You just had to be careful not to let your train get into the same block as another one.Way back, "in the day" This wiring system was called "tower control."
The other DC method is called "Dual cab control". It uses two power packs also, but as others here, and the Atlas book say, you would divide the layout into blocks of track, insulated from each other. Each block would have a pair of feeder wires connected to a toggle switch on a big control panel. The two packs would also be connected to each of the toggle switches. Flipping a toggle one way would connect its block of track to power pack "A" and flipping it the other way would connect that block to pack "B". All of this required lots of wiring, and expense, and construction time to go into building this control panel. You would also spend a lot of time flipping those toggle switches in order to get your train where you wanted. When you start adding up the money needed for multiple power packs,especially good quality ones; and toggle switches, lots of wire and so on; you are likely going to spend the same amount you would buying a basic DCC system. DonR, on this forum has such a system, with two DCC locos and a DCC control system. He likes it, and it didn't cost all that much.
OK, so why DCC?
1) You don't need more than one, "power pack"( DCC command station)
2) you don't need to buy, or flip, any toggle, switches to run two,or more, trains.
3) you don't need a control panel, or lots of wires to run two+ trains. 
4) as time and money permit you can add sound to the locos, if you chose.
5) it's way simpler to wire and set up than "cab control wiring.
6) It doesn't cost much, if any, more than DC.

So, since it's your railroad, and your decision, maybe it would be worth holding off and saving up some money to go DCC. It's up to you.

Traction Fan


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

It's really not as expensive as traction fan makes it out to be. You don't have to go that complex. You have a simple operation like I had. I did it by buying 2 decent transformers ($40 each), 2 Atlas 205 Connectors ($8 each), and some insulated rail joiners ($4). I had plenty of wire but even if you need wire, $20 should get you plenty. So you are looking at $100 to $120 to do what you want with what you already have.

The cab A/cab B wiring is more complex. 

Why did I switch to DCC/ I wanted to control each train individually instead of having to keep flipping switches to turn power on and off to sections of track (blocks).

To go to DCC you will have to get a DCC starter set. The basic Bachmann EZ Command DCC system goes for $100. Two very popular sytsems a step up are the NCE Power Cab system for $150 or the Digitrax Zephyr for $170. You will also have to buy some DCC locomotives. Bachmann makes some decent diesel locomotives in the $60 to $70 range that run on both DC and DCC. They are great locomotives for making the transition.

Wiring is easy. You could get by with just 1 connection to your track but it is better if on a 4 x 8 oval you have at least 2 to each oval. That's what I have and things run fine. No need for insulated rail joiners.

There is a bit of a learning curve as you need to program the locomotives. The NCE Power Cab makes it pretty simple and the documentation that comes with it is very thorough. It's really not that hard. Don R can tell you about the Bachmann EZ system.

I did a lot of research and thought long and hard about going from DC to DCC as I had several DC locomotives I liked and I had a setup I invested time in that worked for me. You can get into converting locomotives you have. Some are easy, some not so easy. I converted one that was easy and bought some new ones. The bottom line was I wanted to control each train individually and I'm glad I did it. Cost to go is about $200 to $300 for system and a couple locomotives.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

When looking at the cost of DCC, it's important to look at what the systems are actually selling for, not their MSRP. I regularly see stuff marked down as much as 50% from MSRP.


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

Hmmmm.....many really good points. You certainly dispelled some of the "myths" of complex DCC. Ok, I think I need to decide where I want to go from here. Controlling individual trains would be the most ideal way to go. Also, that may actually give me MORE interactive fun with them while I finish up this layout.....hmmmm......something to think about.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A couple other points I like to make FOR DCC.

You can have a single track main (as are most of
the mainline railroads now), with passing sidings,
and run two trains at the same time, one going
clock wise, the other counter clockwise. That keeps
you on your toes as switchman to avoid a
collision.

One other great thing about DCC. The lights on your
trains don't dim when you slow, or go out when you stop.

Don


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

DonR said:


> A couple other points I like to make FOR DCC.
> 
> You can have a single track main (as are most of
> the mainline railroads now), with passing sidings,
> ...



ok now the light thing......that has kinda become a pet peeve.


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## VegasN (Mar 14, 2016)

ok, one more quick question before I go and figure out what I am doing......can you convert any locomotive to DCC or would it be too much, or not doable on the Kato GP38-2, the Kato RS-11, and the Trix F7, oh what the hell, can I convert the Bachmann Gp40 as well? Or should I just buy new locomotives?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

VegasN said:


> ok, one more quick question before I go and figure out what I am doing......can you convert any locomotive to DCC or would it be too much, or not doable on the Kato GP38-2, the Kato RS-11, and the Trix F7, oh what the hell, can I convert the Bachmann Gp40 as well? Or should I just buy new locomotives?


As with almost everything else in this hobby, the answer is "it depends".

With enough effort, including structural modifications to your locos frame, weights, and shell, you can add a decoder to any locomotive. Whether the effort (and potentially expense) is worth it is another question entirely.

It's generally a good idea to pop the shell and have a look inside before making a final decision. If you're not terribly handy, or can't solder very well, then anything beyond a straight plug in socket might be too much; if you're comfortable with small wiring and a little milling and slicing of your loco, then you can probably handle most loco.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Modern Kato locos are dead easy, the decoder just clips on. The Trix F7 is older so might be more challenging, meaning you'll have to hard wire it and possibly remove material from the weight to make room for the decoder. I don't have any experience of Bachmann locos but again the more recent the easier it will be.


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