# Train sparking and smoking like a volcano



## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

Okay, so volcano might be a stretch, but that's how it looks to me when my dear train is freaking out. 

It's from 1993, family got it when I was two. It was the family train and was used at Christmas and any time we kids wanted to play with it. 
When I went off to college, I didn't get to see the train. So far as I know, they only ran it once during my college career. 

Last year when I was home after college, I was told the train was missing and the coal car had broken and was thrown away. I had my sister find the train and she said it was a hopeless cause because it wouldn't work. 

I tried to run it. It sparked and would hardly move. Then it would stop and sit there, billowing out smoke. So I took it apart, cleaned it up (filthy!) and tried to run it. 

It does pick up energy better and run, but it starts sparking on the wheels and shorts itself out. When it decides to sit on the track with power, it starts spitting out smoke from the stack and all out from under it. I have no idea where to even start. I've never fixed a train that was sparking and acting so weird. 

I have two little brothers who don't have the slightest idea how trains work and I'm afraid they might have played with it while I was gone and did something to it. 

Sorry for the long message, just thought I could give as much information as I could. Hope someone can help or at least direct me to a place that can help me


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

You started with one step of the basics, a cleaning. I'd go a bit further like making sure the commutator is cleaned. You'll need to remove the brush holder to achieve this. Once you have it properly cleaned oil it sparingly with plain ordinary motor oil, no 3-n-1, sewing machine oil. a drop or two on all moving part will do the trick. Above all make certain nothing is binding, most loco's wheels will spin fairly easily by hand. Use a green scotch-brite pad to clean the track. This should help. Pictures of any problem areas will help out if you still have issues.

Carl


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

My experience has been the same as Kwikster's. 

The electrical engineer in me notes that pre- and post-war motors have a lot of reactance in their windings, and that means dirty wheels and contacts, or commutators, result in them pulling sparks at the rails when running. The model railroader in me notes that whatever the reason, nearly every time sparking happens, cleaning pickusp and wheels well, and the commutator, solves the problem.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

Sorry to sound silly, but what is the communicator? I know what a few parts are in my head but when it comes to their actual names I fall short. This is the first train I've taken under my wing to fix, so I'm learning  I appreciate the help! 

The 'pickups,' or the parts that hit the middle rail for electricity, were very dirty when the train arrived. I got most of the gunk off but I could still do more for it I'm sure.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lets start with make and model number this is 1993 so it can have a DC can motor right? You can clean those pickups, and track with a green scotch brite pad.then wipe down with alcohol and a rag.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

It's a 1993 New York Central Flyer. The number I have for it is 6-11735.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Sorry, i read your original post wrong and thought it was from 1933. Very likely it is just dirty contacts or track.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

The track is all new so it must be the contacts. I'll give them a super cleaning now to see if that helps!


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

I did as sjm9911 said with the contacts. I also noticed the bronze colored strip the contacts touch was really grimy under them, so I cleaned it up too. 
The train ran fine. It was slow at first, the light sort of dim, but as it went around it gained speed and the light got brighter so I hope that means it's all sorted out. No more sparks that I could see! 

Thank you all for your help. I'm so relieved it was just a cleaning issue and nothing bad was going on wiring wise.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

ChessieSystem said:


> The track is all new so it must be the contacts. I'll give them a super cleaning now to see if that helps!


Enjoy the choo choo, but when you "Super Clean" DON'T USE STEEL WOOL.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Dave Sams said:


> Enjoy the choo choo, but when you "Super Clean" DON'T USE STEEL WOOL.


or Simple Green


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I have the same engine. I would recommend disconnecting the smoke unit. I have had shorting issues with the smoke unit that would do similar things and once I disconnected the smoke unit it ran fine. A replacement smoke unit is only $12 at most places if you want it to smoke again. You can't fix these as they are completely sealed. Those plastic smoke units are horrible and I recommend just disconnecting it and enjoy it without the smoke. Any time I use mine, even the new one, I smell plastic burning.

If you need pictures on how to disconnect the smoke unit I can take mine apart tonight


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

Smoking and sparking is definitely a bad sign, but I'm surprised the motor runs. Try seeing if there's a way to test the motor directly, and see if the motor is still in working order.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

No steel wool, got it!


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

L0stS0ul said:


> I have the same engine. I would recommend disconnecting the smoke unit. I have had shorting issues with the smoke unit that would do similar things and once I disconnected the smoke unit it ran fine. A replacement smoke unit is only $12 at most places if you want it to smoke again. You can't fix these as they are completely sealed. Those plastic smoke units are horrible and I recommend just disconnecting it and enjoy it without the smoke. Any time I use mine, even the new one, I smell plastic burning.
> 
> If you need pictures on how to disconnect the smoke unit I can take mine apart tonight


That would be helpful! The smoke unit has this slimy mess all over it. I think someone dumped a whole bottle of smoke fluid on it. It does smell bad when it tries to smoke.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Welcome to the site, no offense but you don't really know the right way, am I right?

I would recommend a thorough cleaning and lubrication to the locomotive.
Even though you cleaned some of it I would bet that there is some you missed.
Did you lubricate it? Right?

Pictures help a lot to point out some of the things you need to clean and lube.
Maybe we can find a diagram or your locomotive to show you exactly how and where to do it.

After I finish eating I will look, unless someone else finds it first.
I am hungry.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

big ed said:


> Welcome to the site, no offense but you don't really know the right way, am I right?
> 
> I would recommend a thorough cleaning and lubrication to the locomotive.
> Even though you cleaned some of it I would bet that there is some you missed.
> ...


No offense at all! I don't really know what I'm doing. I've seen my grandpa take train motors out but that's about it.
I did get some train lube and oiled it sparingly like I was told. 

But yeah, I'm completely new to the repair side of the model train world.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

400E Blue Comet said:


> Smoking and sparking is definitely a bad sign, but I'm surprised the motor runs. Try seeing if there's a way to test the motor directly, and see if the motor is still in working order.


The train does go around the track now that I got the contacts cleaned really well. So it works it just had a few issues...it makes a clacky sound that I don't remember it making before, but it's been years since I've heard it run so perhaps I just forgot  my diesel is so quiet compared to the other two I have haha!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I have been looking for a picture showing your motor to explain the different parts.

The only thing I can find is this, https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-1735-250.pdf

Not much help showing you that.

Have you took the body off the frame? Do you know how to pop the shell off?
The link above does show the smoke unit.

A diagram would show more detail, to me too.

This link here has a lot of supplements to download, https://www.lionelsupport.com/servi...oAction=search&product=6-11735&productNumber=

See where it says Product supplements? It has 47 of them, I went through a lot of them but could not find yours. Check out some of them it might have the diesel you have. It might even have your 6-11735 and I missed it?

In the smoke unit picture (in the first link) it says 2 screws holds the front truck (wheels) on.
That is half of taking the shell off, probably only a couple hold the back on. 
Then you can see the motor, take some pictures and we will see what you got.

Between all of us you should be able to get inside and clean it right.


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## 400E Blue Comet (Jul 11, 2014)

ChessieSystem said:


> The train does go around the track now that I got the contacts cleaned really well. So it works it just had a few issues...it makes a clacky sound that I don't remember it making before, but it's been years since I've heard it run so perhaps I just forgot  my diesel is so quiet compared to the other two I have haha!


Are there any other problems with it? As for the train smoking it could be that it has a smoke unit.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

Here are the things I use to clean









5w-30 to oil everything up
goo gone to clean everything up
scotch bright to really clean everything up
cue tips to get into the tiny areas
and a soft bristle toothbrush to help scrub delicate areas. 

Here's my scout. same year and setup just different road








Take off the shell and pull out the leading and trailing trucks. Both of mine were a mess and required a lot of cleaning. I think I actually soaked mine in goo gone for a while. Once clean I rinsed off with water and dried with paper towel. Followed it up with a drop of oil at each motion point.















These little guys get gummed up really badly and can cause all kinds of trouble. Clean these with goo gone and the tooth brush.









The gears come apart pretty easily on this engine. Those 2 motor mount screws hold it all in place. I took mine completely apart, cleaned each gear, and added a drop of oil on the brass gear. These were very badly gummed up on mine.









now onto the smoke unit. It's pretty simple. Cut the 2 wires coming off the lightbulb and pack away. Light will still work but smoke unit will no longer smell up the room.









It's a pretty easy engine to service and a very smooth runner once cleaned up. Mine is quiet as a mouse. Now that I have mine apart it looks like I need to do some cleaning as well. It's had a lot of track time since I last cleaned it.

Good luck


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have enough oil, Lost soul. 
That should last you for a couple 100,000 lube jobs.:thumbsup:


Can anyone find him a diagram of his 6-11735?


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I couldn't find a jug smaller  I don't think I'll ever need to buy another


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## MrRiddle (Sep 8, 2015)

ChessieSystem said:


> Okay, so volcano might be a stretch, but that's how it looks to me when my dear train is freaking out.


Well, you can always get the entire set here.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

I can take it back apart and take some pictures. I was able to take the shell off but I didn't take the "guts" apart because I wasn't sure what all was in there and I didn't want to screw it up. My husband was helping me so he's a bit braver than I am 

It does have a smoke unit that was smoking really bad when I first tested the train. Smoke was coming out the stack and out the bottom of the train. It smelled really bad too. Since I cleaned it up (the front wheel pieces had a greasy substance on it I cleaned off) it hasn't done that. I'm afraid to put smoking fluid in it in case it's broken and leaks. I'm not sure how that works.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Does your smoke unit have an on/off switch?

Some units need fluid all the time or you will burn them up if you run them dry.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

You can find a lot better prices than that. 350 is insane. I got my set for 100. 

http://marketplace.collector-modelt...900-Santa-Fe-Special-Train-Set-LN%Box-2806368


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

Thanks so much for the pictures! I believe I'm tempted to cut the wires to the smoke unit if it acts up. I have another steam engine so if I want smoke, I'll put that train on. I really do appreciate the pictures and everyone's help!! I like that Chesapeake and Ohio car you got there


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

big ed said:


> Does your smoke unit have an on/off switch?
> 
> Some units need fluid all the time or you will burn them up if you run them dry.


As far as I know, it does not have a switch for the smoke. It could be that it was run without smoke while I was away at school. I have no idea what the poor thing might have gone through lol


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

L0stS0ul said:


> I couldn't find a jug smaller  I don't think I'll ever need to buy another


Is that the same locomotive that she has that you are showing in the pictures?


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

It's a different set but same scout 4-4-2 engine. I checked the Lionel parts and they are identical.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

Here's the Lionel parts page for chessie's engine

https://www.lionelsupport.com/Repla...roductID=e8526223-2fdd-44a1-8810-c9de47e2334c


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

L0stS0ul said:


> Here's the Lionel parts page for chessie's engine
> 
> https://www.lionelsupport.com/Repla...roductID=e8526223-2fdd-44a1-8810-c9de47e2334c


Ok, that is what I have been looking for. 
DC motor, it has no brushes to clean, so really all it needs is to be lubed right.

If the prices are right the smoke unit doesn't cost that much.
Stink up the room?
Buy some scented smoke then.

You run a steam locomotive, you have to fill the room with smoke!
Lots of smoke!


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

Mine has never smelled like anything but burning plastic even with megasteam. It's the main reason I disconnected it after replacing it and having the same smell. It did smoke well but horrid smell and the wife nixed it  now the MTH engines I have... They smoke up the room when I run two at a time


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

I have some scented smoke for the other train. I always liked the smell of the plain stuff too, I guess that's because it reminds me of my grandpa's basement where trains were running everywhere! 

I will put a few drops in the train to see how it does. Hopefully it will be okay but if it's going to be a problem I'll snip the wires.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

L0stS0ul said:


> Mine has never smelled like anything but burning plastic even with megasteam. It's the main reason I disconnected it after replacing it and having the same smell. It did smoke well but horrid smell and the wife nixed it  now the MTH engines I have... They smoke up the room when I run two at a time


By the look of your picture of it on the upper right side, the wire up top, opposite of where you cut it, it almost looks like the wire was burning.
Unless that is paint globs I see?
The other side I can't really see but it almost looks the same.

Are those wires melted? That might account for the burning smell.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My wife loves the JT's Megasteam _Clove Sensation_, so that's safe here.  I bought the big bottle.  I see Jeb at York, he's real close to the Henning's booth.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

big ed said:


> By the look of your picture of it on the upper right side, the wire up top, opposite of where you cut it, it almost looks like the wire was burning.
> Unless that is paint globs I see?
> The other side I can't really see but it almost looks the same.
> 
> Are those wires melted? That might account for the burning smell.


It looks burnt but its not. When I got the new one there was this gell like stuff that was red and that is what has melted. I guess it's supposed to be an insulator but it doesn't work. It's a horribly designed smoke unit. Over time, because the air hole for the puffing is at the bottom of the reservoir, it will inevitably clog with residue and then never smoke well and can't be cleaned. I tried heh.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My wife loves the JT's Megasteam _Clove Sensation_, so that's safe here.  I bought the big bottle.  I see Jeb at York, he's real close to the Henning's booth.


The clove is my wife's favorite as well.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My wife loves the JT's Megasteam _Clove Sensation_, so that's safe here.  I bought the big bottle.  I see Jeb at York, he's real close to the Henning's booth.


We have that one to in the other steam engine. Smells so good for the fall!


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

Okay I got it cleaned really good and it ran a few laps okay. I decided to see if the smoker would work, so I put two drops of smoke fluid in it. It began sparking again and wouldn't run. It seems the smoker has a leak or something because the drops drained down to the front wheels. I installed it correctly I'm sure!


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

Okay well we let it dry out and tried again and it ran okay. When we put some cars with it, full power, it barely slugged along the tracks. Does that mean the engine is no good?


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

It sounds like that smoke unit is shorting out. I'd disconnect it and try again. It could also be dirty still which could contribute to a problem with pulling power. Make sure everything connected to the wheels is clean and not sticky. 

Mine will pull 18 cars no problem. That's the max I can do on my layout. The traction tires don't like that much but it can do it.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

L0stS0ul said:


> It sounds like that smoke unit is shorting out. I'd disconnect it and try again. It could also be dirty still which could contribute to a problem with pulling power. Mine will pull 18 cars no problem. That's the max I can do on my layout. The traction tires don't like that much but it can do it.


It used to pull quite a few cars before I went to college. I will try cleaning it some more to see if that helps (can't over clean, right?). I think I will disconnect the smoker and debate buying a new one for it.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ChessieSystem said:


> Okay well we let it dry out and tried again and it ran okay. When we put some cars with it, full power, it barely slugged along the tracks. Does that mean the engine is no good?


You could have used a can of air to accelerate the drying.
When you say "some' cars how many did you actually try to pull?
Are the cars heavy metal cars? The track is at level, your not going up hill?

You said all the track is new, clean it anyway. Wipe it down with a clean rag and some alcohol. Isopropanol 91% is what they sell (I am told) in the stores. 99% is better but I am told that you can't find it in the stores. ( I haul chemicals so I don't buy any, I don't look). The track might be coated with some kind of coating to prevent rust during storage?
It is probably not your track but wipe it down anyway, use a white rag if you have one to see how dirty it was. Use an old white t shirt?
Clean track makes for a happy train ride.

Make sure you *have all the pins in* and the connections are tight.

Are the wheels spinning when trying to pull or it just doesn't want to go? You have what is called a traction tire on one of the wheels. It is the rubber band thing on one wheel. Do you have one on a wheel?

What transformer are you using, and how much track do you have set up right now?
List what is stamped (or on the tag) on the transformer you have.

Sounds like that smoker sucks, why don't you snip the wires like lost soul did and give it a try. It looks like it is connected to the motor, maybe something in the smoker is shorting out something making it strain? If you cut the wire you are turning it off. Try that first, it might be your problem.
Your not going to use the smoke unit anyway right?

I don't think your locomotive was made to pull a whole bunch of cars, but it should pull 5 or 6 easy. Do you have the tender? (the coal car that sits behind the locomotive?)

Edit, I stand corrected on the count, I was typing as lost soul replied.
Edit again, lost soul beat me on snipping the wires.:smokin:


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

We had four cars behind it, only one was heavy but the train had pulled it in the past so I didn't think it would be difficult for it. 

I will clean the track when I get home and let you know what control unit I have. It runs two other trains fine. 

The train does have the rubber band on one wheel and the track is a simple oval, with very wide turns (I run a fat twin Diesel engine on the track as well, and it likes wide turns). No hills, it's sitting on the floor for now (recently moved and don't have a table for the train). 

The wires will get snipped when I get home. Hopefully that will help. I ran it after the fluid was dried and cleaned off. No sparks just lethargic lol it runs okay all by itself but add more than the coal car and it begins to struggle.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

I've got to work now, so I'll update/catch up with you all then.
I really appreciate the help. It may be a cheap engine but it's been with me since I was at least three and means quite a bit to me (sentimental junkie).


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

ChessieSystem said:


> I've got to work now, so I'll update/catch up with you all then.
> I really appreciate the help. It may be a cheap engine but it's been with me since I was at least three and means quite a bit to me (sentimental junkie).


In the year 3030 it might be worth a lot of dough. 

I hear you on the sentimental part, most get back into running trains when they find their old trains in a box. 
I did, but I ran mine like Gomez Adams.
I did not have explosives, (thank God) but I devised many other ways to crash my trains. He was my hero.






My Dad took mine away and did not give them back till many many years later. When he did he said, here is the junk you made back then. ( he added a few words I can't type here.

I did have to fix one after I found it and it has a few battle scars, but I still have it. And I am keeping the battle scars I gave it to bring back memories.
From there my train collection just grew.


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## jprampolla (Oct 16, 2011)

ChessieSystem said:


> The train does have the rubber band on one wheel .....


I have that same loco and it should have 2 traction tires, one on each driver on the right side. 

I am sentimental also. Hope you can find a replacement tender!

Good Luck!

Take care, Joe.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Lee Willis said:


> or Simple Green


Lee

I just jumped on this morning while taking a break from my 1/8 scale train.

What is the danger with Simple Green?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The symptoms you describe are typical for a loco that is not properly lubed. Use 5W-20 motor oil and lube anything that rotates or slides. Lube the gears and the stub shafts the gears ride on. Lube the armature bearings, both sides. Lube all the axles for the drivers. Lube the connecting rods and crosshead. Lube the pilot truck and trailing truck. When you use your thumb to rotate the wheels, they should turn freely.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dave Sams said:


> What is the danger with Simple Green?


You should have been there for the whole story!  I think Lee should re-tell it for the local audience.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

Mine only has one traction tire. I got mine cleaned up today as well and tested it out. Working really nice. Just be on the lookout for anything sticky in the sliders. That's where mine was binding when I first got it. I took it down to the wheels, cleaned everything with goo gone, and then 5w-30 as I put it back together. It's a really reliable setup once you take the horrible smoke unit out of the equation.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

OK now I know the train, I got a few of those too! Cool little guys, usually reliable. I have different years and never needed to open them up. Don't they have an on off for the smoke unit? Would just turning it off work. Haven't had them on the layout in a while.


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## jprampolla (Oct 16, 2011)

sjm9911 said:


> OK now I know the train, I got a few of those too! Cool little guys, usually reliable. I have different years and never needed to open them up. Don't they have an on off for the smoke unit? Would just turning it off work. Haven't had them on the layout in a while.


I disabled the smoke unit in mine (I was concerned about it burning up because I don't use the smoke). If I remember correctly, the headlight is part of the smoke unit assembly and there is no on/off switch on mine. So I used a 14 volt grain of wheat bulb for the headlight and left the smoke unit in place but disconnected. I think you can just get to the smoke unit from under the pilot wheels, but it has been 3 years now since I opened it up. It is a good puller. I put a drop of CA glue on each traction tire. I gather that without the traction tires, the loco wouldn't pull nearly as well.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Without the tires and lubrication it will not pull well, also for the op, oil the rolling stock wheels too! If you need parts Jeff at the train tender has much cheaper shipping then Lionel directly. He also has lots of parts


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> OK now I know the train, I got a few of those too! Cool little guys, usually reliable. I have different years and never needed to open them up. Don't they have an on off for the smoke unit? Would just turning it off work. Haven't had them on the layout in a while.


I asked her that, I quote you......."If you read the thread"  you will see that she said that she has none.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ed, I cant remember everthing, If I did what would you have left to do?


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

There is no switch for the smoke. The smoke unit it is wired into the front light. The only switch on it is for locking it into direction. For only having one traction tire mine pulls pretty well. It's a pretty lite engine though which is it's big problem for pulling.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> Ed, I cant remember everthing, If I did what would you have left to do?


You made me feel bad the other day, I am just trying to "rub" some of it off, back onto you.

Spell check....add a y in the everything. rub rub rub


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the advice! I'm unsure the best way to take apart the train completely. I did as far as the pictures earlier in the thread went, but that was all.


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## ChessieSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> Without the tires and lubrication it will not pull well, also for the op, oil the rolling stock wheels too! If you need parts Jeff at the train tender has much cheaper shipping then Lionel directly. He also has lots of parts


That's good to know. We have another train missing a piece that we are wanting to replace.


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