# What is the true advantage of DCC?



## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I have a large DC layout. All old school wiring, no circuit boards etc. Run multiple trains on each line using blocks that I have set up. Conveniently there is a station or industry at least every other block so when trains get to close one needs to 'unload or load cargo'. I have no issue with the running of the trains currently. What do I gain going DCC in this area?

What is the cost? I have well over 40 Athearn BB locomotives and 20+ Mantua (all cast boiler) and Riverossii (also older) steamers. How expensive are these to convert each?

My switches are all Peco (the ones with live frogs for small switchers to cross) or Atlas in some of the yards. What issues will these cause if any?

As I could not convert everything at once can I use a switch to just alternating between my old DC controls and the DC ones?

The one thing that does make me really want to go DCC (only real reason I am considering this) is sound. What is the price for a basic sound package? To save money can the sound decoder be placed into a car and used for multiple locomotives that way? This way I could use a cheaper standard controller in each locomotive and the sound comes from the car just behind. This should also allow for a better speaker.

Just thinking ahead to what I may want to do this train season.

Cost is a major factor. If I do decide to go DCC I may be selling some stuff to afford it.


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## higgsbosonman (Nov 17, 2014)

Lets start with the locomotives. If your BB engines have the older 'jet 400' motor (very dark grey oval magnet, not the brass one), they won't run great on DCC. our club has two of those engines with DCC and they get toasty. Newer ones with the brass motor seem to fair better, but DCC is a lot more sensitive to dirty track and athearns wheels are a problem since they are rough, rather than the new nickel silver lathed wheels that are very good for DCC. I have no experience with Mantua or Rivarossi engines (with the exception of a big boy and challenger), but you might need to remotor them for DCC if they have really old motors. Cheap decoders start at $20 a piece. If you eventually convert sixty engines, you're talking 1200 dollars for basic decoders. Sound decoders range from 80 for cheap ones to over 200 dollars a piece. That math hurts.

I can't answer anything regarding the switches. I have no experience with those.

You can switch between DC and DCC controls, but you'd need to hook up lots of DPDT switches to isolate each block from the DC system to the DCC system, and switch back. It's possible, but depending on the size of your layout, it might be a bigger project than just wiring up the DCC system.

You can place the sound decoder in a box car behind the engine. The only problems I see is that you'd need to MU the engine to the box car every time you wanted to switch to a new engine (which would get tedious pretty quick), and you'd need a few boxcars, each with different sounds to emulate whatever you have, like alco engines, EMD 567s, and steam engines.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Do I love thee DCC, let me count the ways.

Where to start...First of all...your Peco and Atlas turnouts will do just
fine when you power your layout with DCC. In fact, you won't need
to make any electrical changes to the layout.

Yes, it is advisable to have a DPDT switch so you can change back and
forth between DC and DCC. To make this work, you would select one
of your power pack circuits, and set all track electrical blocks to that.
You would connect the master track feed to the middle tabs of the DPDT.
You would connect the track terminals of your DC power pack to the
tabs on one end of the switch, the output of the DCC decoder would
go on the other pair of tabs. Thus, a flip of the switch changes your
layout power.

One word of caution: DCC puts a modified AC current on the tracks.
You do not want to permit any DC loco to sit idle on the tracks. It
will burn out the motor. I assume you have the ability in your
layout wiring to 'turn off' the power on certain yard tracks so that
the DC locos can park there with no power. It is claimed that you
can run a DC loco using a function on the DCC controller. I, personally,
would not ever put a DC loco on a DCC track.

I'll let the DCC sound guys make comments on your thinking there.

But, why DCC? You'll enjoy the ease of running your trains. You'll
never have to flip multi power pack block control switches again. You'll have
individual control of each train simply by pushing a button. You can start
and stop one train while 2 others ply the rails. You can run a switching
operation while a train makes a continuous run. You can even have
two trains on the same single track, one going clockwise the other
counter clockwise. And, one seemingly small factor. The lights stay on.
They don't dim when you slow or go out when you stop.

While one controller can easily run several trains at the same time,
you would eventually like to have a portable hand held. These can be
either wireless or wired to jacks placed in your layout fascia where you
want them.

You can get a new starter DCC for 165.00. This is one of the most popular brands.

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/digitrax-starter-set

Bachmann EZ DCC controllers cost less.

My layout is all Bachmann. It does everything you want to do, but is limited
in the ability to fine tune the decoders. The Digitrax and NCE controllers
can do that.

http://stuccu.com/s/Bachmann+Ez+Con...764731&caid=5461eb9bb1b1c61e78ed34e9&device=c

You can find even more values in used DCC gear.

It will cost around 20.00 to convert any of your newer
locos to DCC, sound is considerably more. The key
factor is, the amperage draw on some older locos is
more than a DCC decoder can handle. There is a test
you can do for that.

Since you apparently a large layout with many locos you
likely would want to consider starting out with a starter
set which usually has a 1 or 2 amp power source. This would
be ample for up to 4 or 5 trains running at the same time.
You can add a 5 amp booster at any time later if you
feel the need.

You've been on the Forum for a while. Do read up on DCC
in our DCC section.

And ask away at any questions or concerns you may have.

Don


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

3 or 4 years ago I was in the exact boat you are in except I didn't have a large layout.
I had a 4' X 8' that I had grown very tired of and started using the board for a storage shelf. I was nearing retirement and started planning my dream layout. I had dug my feet in the sand and swore I would stay DC and never go DCC. Like you I had many BB locos,
and many rivarossi steamers. I did not want to spend the money to convert my DC
locos to DCC. Also like you I liked the idea of sound locos. Sound locos will make sound
on your DC layout. You just will not have any control over the sound. Like blowing the
horn or whistle. I wanted that control and spent a bundle on DCC (I guess around $600).
You don't have to spend that much But it take somewhere around 170 to 180 for a DCC
starter set. I go overboard on my hobbies. I bought a DCC loco from trainworld and hooked my DCC up to my 3X5 oval test track. I have to tell you that did it. No more DC
for me. Since then I still haven't started my dream layout but I have converted one of
my old BB locos to DCC and sound. It was not hard and it worked the first time. I was 
proud of myself. I watched many many youtube videos on the install before I ventured
into it. It does sound like cost is a big deal to you. It will not be cheap to go DCC. You 
might not want to spend the money. I put a $100 sound decoder in that BB loco. I 
don't know how smart it is to put a $100 decoder in a $30 loco. But it sure is cool and
it works. It will be expensive to put decoders in your old locos but new sound locos
cost even more. I enjoy DCC so much more than DC and you will too. It also sounds 
like it may cost more than you want. This hobby is no longer cheap. You can wrap a
bundle up in a hurry. I know this does not help your decision. You are leaning enough
that I think you want DCC. May God help you. Money always stands in the way of things.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

You called this thread "the true advantage of DCC". I would say that, with the exception of sound, which you already know about, the other huge advantage of DCC is the simplification of block wiring and multiple train operation. For the beginner (or someone starting completely over), this is a major benefit.

For someone like you, who already has an established layout, with multiple train operations, turnouts, and the like, the potential gain is much smaller. It will simplify things a little (at the price of some rework), but not give you any huge improvements.

The best thing I can advise (wiring not being my strong suit) is to set up the dual controls (one DCC, one DC) so that you can upgrade gradually. This lessens the cost impact greatly.

Good luck.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Currently I basically have two mainlines that are separate sets on the layout. Then there are two large yards and a round house. The two mainlines can only interconnect through the roundhouse, both have a spur that leads to that turn table. A point to point that has been in progress for 2 + years is also there. In all areas each block is 3-4 feet long and power is run to it through a DPDT switch. There is a main DPDT switch that connects the power supply to a distribution box that goes to the individual switches that control the blocks. I segregated everything as much as possible so that I can isolate issues when they occur. 

Sounds like for DCC I would only need to add a DPDT switch between my controllers and main power bus. Any DC locomotives could just sit on lines that were tuned off safely. On the main line then I would just need to turn all of the blocks and let it run.

Issue is that to start it looks like ~$150 for the system, $20 per loco and them ~$80 per sound. The price is getting real high real fast.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

The electrical side of things have been well covered so I'll take the sound aspect. Whatever you do don't get one of your steamers converted to sound. If you do you'll want converts all the others! DCC and particularly sound just add so much more to the hobby, you won't want to go back! As someone else said on here recently it's become a hobby within a hobby. You can do endless fiddling with settings, there's choice of whistles, bells, ring rate and so on. It's still expensive for sound but it will come down. You can get cheaper sound decoders but IMO they're not worth it, although Soundtraxx are now offering a cheaper version of their Very popular Tsunami. I should think it will have fewer features but the sound should still be great.
So give it a go, but be warned!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

tkruger said:


> Sounds like for DCC I would only need to add a DPDT switch between my controllers and main power bus. Any DC locomotives could just sit on lines that were tuned off safely. On the main line then I would just need to turn all of the blocks and let it run.
> 
> Issue is that to start it looks like ~$150 for the system, $20 per loco and them ~$80 per sound. The price is getting real high real fast.


You are correct. Just imagine how much more you'll enjoy your layout when
you don't have to concern yourself with making sure all of those switches
are flipped in the right order to keep your trains running. You can have a couple
of trains running and maybe do a switching operation with DCC and 
all you have to do is operate the controller and throw turnout points.

But, start out slowly. Get the controller, even a cheap used one. And convert
one or two locos. 
Get the 'feel' of DCC. You'll still be able to run your other trains when you simply
flip your DPDT back to DC. But beware. DCC is a drug and you will get
hung up on it.

Don


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## hirailer (Oct 24, 2013)

Check out RailPro. I have been using this system for two years now and I love it. Railpro is a serious, full featured product that is so easy to install and operate. This system is rapidly gaining popularity,in my opinion, much better than DCC. The price of a starter kit at Railpro is $399.95, but can be found less than that at some vendors. Remember though, Railpro is a true wireless system. Once you have used a wireless system, you will want one of them. DCC wireless systems cost as much or more than Railpro. There is no test tracks, fiddling with cv's or any complicated programming as with DCC. Just a lot of fun. I went directly from DC to Railpro and have never regretted that decision, it cost more to get started, but there is not much more to buy after the starter kit, maybe a automatic reverse module for $39.95. Engine sound modules are priced about the same as quality DCC decoders.

Mel

http://www.ringengineering.com/

Uses forum not associated with Ring Engineering http://rpug.pdc.ca/index.php


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mel

The Railpro train control system looks very interesting, but I am
skeptical of any system that is not compatible with NMRA
DCC standards. With Railpro you cannot use any components, including
decoders made for DCC. You are totally locked into using
their products. With NMRA DCC you can use Digitrax
decoders with NCE or Bachmann controllers, and even some
other makes.

Don


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## hirailer (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi Don,
Railpro is a totally different system than DCC in way it works. Commands from the handheld controller and sent to the locomotive module via radio frequency rather than through the track as in DCC. The two systems are not compatible with each other however, I can take my Railpro locomotive and controller and run my engine on any DCC layout. I can't control their locos and they can not control mine. One cool feature of this modern technology is that I could consist a dozen locomotives all different models and manufacturers in less than a minute and they all run together perfectly.

For someone who already has made a sizable investment in DCC, Railpro maybe not be for them. But for someone who is moving from DC to a radio control system, Railpro is worth considering. This company has been around for more than ten years and they are not going away any time soon.

Cheers
Mel


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

DonR said:


> Mel
> 
> The Railpro train control system looks very interesting...
> 
> Don


It's also relatively expensive.

Their decoder without sound is $60. A basic decoder for DCC can be had for $20.

Their accessory decoder that can control 4 turnouts is $80 or $20 per turnout. The DCC LocoNet compatible turnout controller of the brand I use (RR-CirKits) is $53 or about $6.50 per turnout.


I like the idea but I think better things from other companies are coming.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

If you're running the very old motors, you might just want to stay DC. DCC is really for the newer motor sets and will only be a major headache for you in the long run unless you want to take the bigger step and remotor your locos.
You said you were limited on funds. This meets that constraint.


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## Peter Herron (Jun 30, 2015)

*Here's one other advantage of DCC........*

........really good control over a decent can motor for really slow speed. This in an OMI Whitcomb in O scale that I remotored and added a QSI Titan (stereo) decoder with a speaker in each end.

The speed is .4 smph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrvrQ7_Cznc

Peter


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

The real advantage of DCC is that you can do things that the real Railroads usually wouldn't do anyway.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Keeping in mind that cost is my biggest limitation. Second (something that I have not mentioned) is that I like to avoid proprietary systems like the plague (work in the IT industry and have been burned by this there to many times).

What is the value of doing this to get going on a conversion:
On main line #1 only
- Bachmann DCC used controller, limited but it is a start.
- Convert a few with the $20 decoders without sound.
- Convert a box car to sound for an SD9, SD40-2 or F7, I have allot of those on my roster. Choice made based on locomotives chosen for $20 decoder conversion.

As for the wiring I would just add a switch to select the source for DC or DCC. Perhaps it may be better to move to an end goal of making one mainline DC and one DCC after seeing how this works out.

Is there anything on the used market near the price point of the Bachmann set up? If I can get started with a $300 investment that would be good.


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## Justin9 (Dec 30, 2011)

I think if I was in your shoes... If I wanted DCC I would simply purchase the controller and maybe convert a few of my locomotives, but I would probably just slowly over time start buying newer locomotives that had the sound and dcc (or would be DCC ready) and phase out the DC stuff instead of trying to convert it all... maybe worry about converting the DC locos that would be hard to replace with something DCC...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

While it sounds like an attractive operational idea, having a 
DC main running along side a DCC (Modified AC) main can result in
sparks flying and possible device damage
if a loco should happen to cross over. It obviously
can be done, but I don't think I would.

Much better to have the entire layout one or the other at any
given time using the DPDT switch.

Don


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I second the suggestion by Justin9. Get the controller and then go DCC bit by bit. I should get the one the one that really appeals, if you compromise you might get frustrated if you're not happy using it. It's the heart of your system. Have a look on YouTube and see how they all operate.

Remember you won't be able to change CVs with the Bachmann EZ controller but Don seems happy with his.

Converting the old non DCC ready locos is half the fun. I can do mine now without looking at a wiring chart.


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