# N Scale in my bar



## Eric_L

Greetings fellow engineers! 

I am returning to model railroading after over 20 years on hiatus. When I was a young teen I had a dedicated room for trains and belonged to The Sierra Nevada Model Railroad Club in Stockton, CA. (and they had a heluva layout!) Fast forward through college, starting a career then a family, and here I am now.. and I miss my trains!

I recently completed my MANCAVE addition to my house. During the construction of the bar I agonized on the perfect material for a bar counter top. One night I was discussing with my wife my desire to build a cocktail table train set once the addition was done and we both had the brainstorm at the same time; the bar counter was the PERFECT location for me to re-enter the model railroad hobby! 

So far I have only set up a temporary layout to play with while I accumulate and build the items I will need. (I've already built a scale replica of the house I grew up in and the bar I hung out at in college) It is a FANTASTIC conversation piece! 

I've had a few problems - one was a brand new Bachmann Spectrum DCC 2-8-0 had problems so I had to send it to Bachmann for service. The online vendor told me that is the only choice. Bachmann said it will take 8 WEEKS to return it. FFS! Is that normal or am I dealing with a crap vendor? Is this the norm for vendor and manufacturer alike?

Also, a friend gave me a 10 yr old Bachmann engine, Santa Fe 0-6-0 DC power only. One of the wheels keeps falling off for no reason. I would love to know if there is a way to fix it. Also - is it too old to convert to DCC?

Anyway - my REAL question is about setting up my permanent layout under the bar. My wife had an idea that I wanted to ask some experienced railroaders about;
but first - some pictures:



















Trains under glass. 

My original plan was to just affix the track to the sub-countertop and then do scenery right in the box. However,there are two issues; one being that there is an overhang. I would be limited on where I could put under-table wires and mechanisms. The other being that my wife and I would prefer to limit the number of blemishes and holes I put on the sub-counter. 

We had the idea of building a second surface which I could lay in the bar counter case. One with a void under it big enough to run wires and switch mechanisms - I figure 3/8-1/2 inch. 

Of course, as you can see from the photos below - it would have to be modular in order to fit through the top openings and also to allow for reasonable access to maintain the wires etc. under it. I am guessing each module would be around 15w"x30" or so. (The bar is about 30" wide, 6" deep and around 10' long)

By going modular I would also be able to swap out pieces on occasion - such as during Christmas I could have a Christmas downtown with snow!

Here is my question - will I regret trying to do this modular? I see lots of technical difficulties. I anticipate I would have to lay out and tack down the track outside of the table. How would I connect the tracks between the modular pieces? I would install the scenery once the track is in the table. I plan to have some raised sections and mountains. Lifting out the flat parts would be easy, but should I ever need to access under the mountain section it could be problematic... 

Finally - I also am looking for suggestions on switch controller placement. I plan to have about 16 switches. I have my controls in a 12" wide drawer. I need to figure out how to lable the switches so I know which ones go where and what position the switches are in in a tight space. Any suggestions?

Thanks

-Eric

BTW - here is a photo of the whole bar for anyone interested;


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## novice

I have no suggestions for you, but I did want to say that's a very impressive Man Cave/Bar.

You built that yourself? If so, well done.


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## NIMT

For starters welcome here!
Yep it's pretty common for vendors and manufactures to take that long! It can be the pits!
You need to find someone like Hummm ME (link) I've done allot of DCC installs on those little buggers and it can be done But there is no easy way for me to explain to you how to do it! Nice part you can 99% of the time put LED lighting and sound in them too!
Yea I've done cabinets for a few years and what your asking for as far as modular is really just about imposable. You could make it in sections but trying to get it in and out of the top would kill you. I've done it but the Whole top comes off! As far as wiring and controls the easy way to do this is to install some blue foam in the entire box top and that way you can cut in and hide all the wires. switch machines in N at least Kato are built right into the switch so that's easy.
For the controls you need to make a mini map and install the switches in it then you know what is where.
Oh and the giant floor chess set! Cool man Cool!


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## Eric_L

I think you misunderstand. I already have access through the top - the glass is easily removed. The trouble I will have is removing the sections witjout damaging the scenery on adjacent pieces. I also am uncertain how to connect track between the pieces. 

If the switches have identifyers of position then that is helpful. I can draw a map - i am just worried about the small scale of the map. 

I had a cabinet shop build the bar for me - I have a business to run.


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## NIMT

I thought I understood but guess I'm wrong. 
Yep trying to pull pieces out of the top your going to mess up the scenery!
You would just have to slide the rail joiners back and forth.
LED's for turnout position would solve that problem.
OH and MY business was cabinets!


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## tjcruiser

Eric,

Very impressive. I think that modular makes good sense, in my opinion, inclusive of your idea to have a subfloor (so to speak) with some channels for wiring below it. If I understand you, only the glass panels themselves remove, so you need to be able to fit any modular pieces through those resulting openings. For that, (and for future occassional service / removal work), the modular subfloor panels will have to be lightweight. That makes me thing foam, rather than plywood. However, foam itself might not be rigid / strong enough for removal. You might want to think of using a foam sandwich panel ... a foam core laminated to very think ply (or even fiberglass) skins.

For below-subfloor wiring, I'd suggest running a main "wire bus" down the general midsection of your layout, with enough individual conductors in the bus harness to accomodate your anticipated needs. Then, you could locally run short-leads from the bus to any accessory, as needed.

It common on complex layouts that guys will connect various subsections of track rail not with rail joiners or soldered rail joints directly, but with "under the table" wire leads that are soldered to the ends of adjacent (abutting) sections of track. Those wire leads can be long in length, with a quick-connect plug midlength to allow for an easy disconnect. If you do this, you'll be providing track section to track section conductivity, of course, but not track to track rail alignment. For that, you'll need some sort of alignment pins (or tapered mortise/tenon socket, etc.), such that each modular subsection self-aligns itself with the next. This won't be easy, as the required track to track position tolerance is tight ... especially in N.

You've got to think about height, too. With a subfloor (and wire chase void below that), you'll have limited space (height) for the layout below the glass. Think about the implications there, of course, as you plan topography contours, sizes of buildings, etc.

Keeps us posts ... looks like a great project,

TJ


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## Xnats

I can not stop laughing, you have such a beautiful bar and adding a layout makes it even better. Then add the dilemma, of trying to get even thing to work. All of life’s trouble’s, should be like this. 

I’m thinking, just laying foam along the whole bottom, to help protect your finish. Then add a raceway along the back where the bartender stands. At this point you can just build as you go. All your wiring would get laid into the foam and run to the raceway. The wiring will get covered with turf. You can leave backs exposed in areas that are needed for access, as long as one does not see it from the front. I know you mentioned about adding Christmas stuff. I personally would just build my summer scenery. At Christmas just pluck all the green trees and replace with leafless ones and sprinkle snow over the whole layout. In January just vacuum it up. Granted you’ll have to do minor repairs to turf maybe, but it sure would look cool. It is nice that it is enclosed in glass, you don’t have to worry about wind, little hands, wet noises and other little household pest.

Please keep us posted, this is a very cool thing you got going on here.


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## Eric_L

I like the foam idea. I think I will go that rout. I may not have to make it sectional then. Cutting the foam is something that makes me nervous. How do I make strait and smooth edges?

Changing over the trees is a neat idea, but I have to admit - vacuuming the layout scares the crap outta me! What substance would I use for snow that wouldn't settle into the scenery and risk gumming up my train motors?

As soon as I am able I will share a drawing of my planned layout. I do want some water on it. How do I paint water in foam? I have a hard enough time trying to figure it out on a smooth surface...


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## tjcruiser

Eric,

Check into the Woodland Scenics scenery and landscaping modeling products. They make a "water" product that's rather convincing.

You can cut 1" foam nicely with a long straight edge and a very sharp single-edge razor (like a wallboard knife). Several passes, going slightly deeper with each. For thicker foam, you might want to consider a "hot knife", which essentially melts the foam as it cuts, leaving a very clean edge.

Regards,

TJ


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## Big Ed

Very nice.:thumbsup:

Though I never worked with foam, I learned here to get the right foam board.

Stay away from the white stuff, stick with the pink stuff (if you can find it) or the blue.

I love what your doing. 
Please keep us updated.:thumbsup:


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## Xnats

TJ was thinking what I was, with the WoodLand Scenic snow and stuff. I really have no idea how hard it would be on your engines. I'm thinking that it is dry and no wind will affect it. So if you brushed the heavy stuff of the tracks, it should be good. Then again if you have very expensive engines, maybe not. In stead of being lose you could try spraying an adhesive on wax paper or saranwrap and put the snow of that. That would be something to goggle. Someone, somewhere must have tried this and posted something online, lol. 

Being in Florida you'll most likely have to order your foam. The white cheap little ball stuff is excellent if you plan on plastering over it. The Dow blue foam, sort of has a memory to it, if you make an indention it stays. The Corning* Pink stuff is probably the best, for your needs. It is the strongest and most crush resistance. If you you have any bridge parapet work going on in your area, contractors are always throwing the stuff out when they are done. If you need extra for mountain and hills. I really don't think you need 1" for your base. Since you only have 6" to work with, a 1/2" or 3/4" would be more then enough. If you plan on having elevated track, a 2% rise will climb 3/4" in 2 feet. 

Where ever you decide to put the water, make sure it is sealed tight. A few layers of plaster cloth, sealed with a coating of something will make sure your water stays and not seep out into you bar. What ever brand/ style you use, be sure you use a recommended sealer. Allot of the water products do not react well with certain materials.


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## Eric_L

Here is a very rough draft of the permanent layout I have proposed. I really don't have the hang of the software yet - it gives me a heluva time on turnouts!

I have highlighted the two core lines in green and orange - which can each be divided into two loops. The yellow line represents the crossover point where I can make the green and orange into one continuous loop.

You can't see elevations here, but the orange to the right is elevated above the green - which passes through tunnels and bridges under the orange. It then goes down to the same level as green around the rail yard.

An astute observer will notice that the yellow lines are too short and will result in clearance/grade problems. Remember the part about the software not getting along with me? The yellow line will be longer and merge further to the left. I just gave up drawing it. I likely still will need the yellow line to grade up some after the bridge to meet the orange on it's grade down. I can't think of any other way or location to do the crossover. There is a few other places also where I fudged, but the basic idea is there. Surely someone more acquainted with the software could do a better job, but considering that I have about three hours on it - I consider it acceptable.


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## x_doug_x

please don't run off... keep us updated, i would really like to see the finished project when you're done.


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## tjcruiser

Eric,

I don't think you said what specific software you're using ?!?!

TJ


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## Big Ed

Xnats said:


> TJ was thinking what I was, with the WoodLand Scenic snow and stuff. I really have no idea how hard it would be on your engines. I'm thinking that it is dry and no wind will affect it. So if you brushed the heavy stuff of the tracks, it should be good. Then again if you have very expensive engines, maybe not. In stead of being lose you could try spraying an adhesive on wax paper or saranwrap and put the snow of that. That would be something to goggle. Someone, somewhere must have tried this and posted something online, lol.
> 
> Being in Florida you'll most likely have to order your foam. The white cheap little ball stuff is excellent if you plan on plastering over it. The Dow blue foam, sort of has a memory to it, if you make an indention it stays. The Corning* Pink stuff is probably the best, for your needs. It is the strongest and most crush resistance. If you you have any bridge parapet work going on in your area, contractors are always throwing the stuff out when they are done. If you need extra for mountain and hills. I really don't think you need 1" for your base. Since you only have 6" to work with, a 1/2" or 3/4" would be more then enough. If you plan on having elevated track, a 2% rise will climb 3/4" in 2 feet.
> 
> Where ever you decide to put the water, make sure it is sealed tight. A few layers of plaster cloth, sealed with a coating of something will make sure your water stays and not seep out into you bar. What ever brand/ style you use, be sure you use a recommended sealer. Allot of the water products do not react well with certain materials.



They don't have foam board in Florida?

I would think they would insulate against the heat?
As well as the cold.
The race in Daytona last night was 44 degrees!
I have been in Jacksonville when it got down to 35 degrees at night. (was in 1996)


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## Eric_L

tjcruiser said:


> Eric,
> 
> I don't think you said what specific software you're using ?!?!
> 
> TJ


RTS10. I also downloaded another which is more CAD related but it had what appeared to be an even steeper learning curve.


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## Xnats

TJ that is XTrkCad, a free software. It is harder to use then AnyRail but pretty cool for free.
Ed every train forum you read says it is hard to get foam board down in the South. I would think it would be a stock item too. There are so many Stucco houses but then again the average home builder is not doing his own house. Then again I have a darn time, finding pickled pig feet when I go to the local store for beer, gas and smokes up here :laugh: 
Eric are you using Atlas code 80? You could try thanking those 2 yellow sections and trying with Anyrail. That software is allot easier to do grades with, then make the changes on XTrkCad.
It is a very nice layout, the whole concept is pretty cool.


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## Eric_L

I am using code 80 track, yes. I figure I'll just manipulate it manually when the time comes. 

I've been thinking about the foam surface for building the layout on. One thing I've noticed is that the flex track has a fair amount of springyness to it. It isn't alot, but it is enough to pull it off spray-on light adhesive over time. I am wondering - will the foam be firm and rigid enough to tack/nail my track down onto or will I need to tack it down with a liquid adhesive? 

Regarding the water effects. It is probably beyond my capabilities, but the water near where I live is more than just monotone. I don't know if there is an easy way to get the effect I want.


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## tjcruiser

Eric,

Re: flex track ... Use Choo Choo Greg's excellent "prebend" tip at thread below, and you shouldn't have any problem maintaining / holding curvature on your flex track ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3931

TJ


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## Eric_L

OK, I am sold on this Corning foam idea over my modular idea. I am going to start accumulating the track I need then get the foam.

I looked it up and notice that it is called FIBERGLASS foam. Does this mean that I will need to wear a mask while I cut into it? Fiberglass is messy stuff - how careful will I need to be with it?

re: Flextrack - Prebending it sorta defeats the purpose of flex track - being able to fit it into odd and unpredictable shapes. I won't be having any turns that are too tight and pre-bending it will not likely be any easier than just tacking it down with a good liquid adhesive.


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## Xnats

Eric_L said:


> I looked it up and notice that it is called FIBERGLASS foam. Does this mean that I will need to wear a mask while I cut into it? Fiberglass is messy stuff - how careful will I need to be with it?


I think that is the wrong stuff. They sell fiberglass sandwiched between foam. 
This is the basic stuff, some folks use 
"juststartingout" has good close ups of the stuff on his layout in the HO section. The stuff makes very minimal of a mess if any.

When you asked before about if it needs to be secured down. You already have a rock solid foundation to work on. If the foam sheets are big enough, they should stay on their own. The weight of the bedding, track, scenery and ect should be more then enough dead weight to hold it down and in place.


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## tjcruiser

Eric,

You want the extruded polystyrene rigid foam insulation boards ... the "blue stuff" or the "pink stuff" ... essentially the same, but with some density / hardness difference. Either will work.

Made by Dow/Corning and Owens/Corning ...

http://www.owenscorning.com/worldwi...f.pdf.OCPinkExtrudedPolystyreneInsulation.pdf

Not sure about your area, but up north, any Home Depot or Lowes readily carries this stuff.

TJ


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## sstlaure

Eric_L said:


> OK, I am sold on this Corning foam idea over my modular idea. I am going to start accumulating the track I need then get the foam.
> 
> I looked it up and notice that it is called FIBERGLASS foam. Does this mean that I will need to wear a mask while I cut into it? Fiberglass is messy stuff - how careful will I need to be with it?
> 
> re: Flextrack - Prebending it sorta defeats the purpose of flex track - being able to fit it into odd and unpredictable shapes. I won't be having any turns that are too tight and pre-bending it will not likely be any easier than just tacking it down with a good liquid adhesive.


I've glued my flextrack down in most places with Alene's craft glue (dries clear) and it works just fine. There are only a couple of places where I've actually spiked the rail (mainly due to abuse from my 4 & 7 yr olds playing with their "pushy" trains on the rails.)


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## juststartingout

This pink stuff is excellent! Cuts with a hot knife (stinks when cutting though) or a fine blade saw (makes a little mess)


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## Eric_L

I went to my local Homey D and found they have only 3/4 pink stuff.

http://www.homedepot.com/Building-M...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

When I am ready I will ask them to order the 2" stuff and see if I can get 1/2" stuff for my ground.

Juststartingout - what are those sticks you have in the foam for?


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## sstlaure

FYI....0.75" is 10 scale feet. (0.75*160=120") so the 2" thick stuff will give you up to 27 scale foot deep valleys in N. Not too surprising they don't carry the thick stuff down south. We've got an entire aisle dedicated to it here in Michigan.


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## juststartingout

Eric_L said:


> Juststartingout - what are those sticks you have in the foam for?


The skewers keep the foam from moving while it's gluing together.


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## Eric_L

I have been reconsidering my final layout plans. With the depth of the bar I am not sure I want my track to run so close to the edges. 

My temporary track crosses at the center and I 'bowed' the track in at the sides to increase the visibility of the trains from above. 

I really don't know how I want to proceed. Maybe the visibility would be fine with the tracks at the edge as I drew... I don't know.

I know that having a mountain in the center would be a bad idea as I would have less space for grades. I don't really want the piers to be permanent. I do want tunnels and scenery though...


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## Ed Gerken

And there the tale ends or did you carry on with the plan? Any updates?

A lot of difficulties to surmount but I think it would be great fun to watch while soaking up the suds or pondering my next poorly considered chess move.

Only thing I would worry about is a spilled drink leaking under the glass.

-Ed


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## tjcruiser

Ed --We haven't seen the original poster Eric here in a while.

Eric -- if you're "out there", we'd love to have you check back in with a layout update!

TJ


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## [email protected]

DRAT! I just traded all my N gear for HO stuff and then I find a reason to build a bar setup. $20 diecast bank, 9" long (too small for HO).


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## gandy dancer#1

*N scale in my bar*

Just a suggestion here, i have recently learned ATLAS roofing materials makes a foam like owens and the other guys a 4 inch by 8 ft by 4ft sheet 28.00. check for atlas dealers in your area. it is paintable, only difference is it comes in an ugly orange color:laugh:


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## Eric_L

Hi Everyone.

Sorry I've been awol. I've had my hands full with many projects, not all train related. If you'd like to see what I've been working on with the train set have a look here; 


























These are models of some favorite structures from my present and past. 



























Regarding the bar layout, I bought the foam board but I've not done anything with it. It is just taking up a ton of space in my garage.

I tried working with Xtrak cad and gave up. It's a beee-otch to learn.

I think my original track plan may have been too ambitions and too close to the edges for good visibility. I'd like to figure out a new plan. One like my current which meanders more in the center but which includes some switches and my motorized turntable. 

I am very open to ideas and suggestions. I would like the ability to run more than one train but on separate loops so as not to distract me when I am tending bar. I also sorta like that I have one long continuous double loop right now. If I could use switches to swap from continuous to double look that'd be cool. 

A few side tracks to store my unused trains would also be nice. plus the round table. 

Any ideas or suggestions?


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## Carl

Very muck like the modeling work. Don't give up on the layout because of the computer programs used to draw them. I have found a good piece of graph paper works just as well. Something that I learned, the hard way, was to keep everything as simple as possible and to design/build as you go along. You new thoughts make a lot of sense.

Best of luck.


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## Eric_L

I finally got my new layout designed. I fiddled with several free programs until I settled on SCARM. It is limited in many ways (laying flex track is a pain) but I found some workarounds and got it done. The limits actually make it more intuitive and user-friendly. The 3D viewer is also quite limited as far as scenery goes, but so be it. I don't have to worry about turn radius with scenery, just track.

This layout will allow me to tun three trains unmonitored when I am entertaining/serving. I also can choose to run one train on a single long route and 'park' the others on an unused portion of that track (by the tunnels)

That gives me some nice flexibility, plus a lot of interest points in the scenery. I have tunnels, over/under, and plan on a river, small trestle, drive in movie theater and a few others. I managed to pack it all in while having turn radius of 14.4 on the outside loop and top loop and 12.5 on the interior loop - so I should be able to get a nice variety of steam engines to run on it. The grade comes in at about 2% and I think I can trim that down some during construction also. 

Not drawn on the blueprint is a spur and trestle I plan to add. It will have an unfinished trestle and then I'll place a 4-4-0 on the edge of it with a custom Delorean on the rails in front of the train. " That's heavy, Doc!" 

I also plan to use soundtraxx. It certainly costs more than decoders in the trains, but I think that is an apples/oranges consideration. It would be like comparing surround sound home theater to an ipod shuffle. Especially considering my layout is under glass I need the extra 'oomph' of soundtraxx. I haven't decided if I will put the speakers under the glass or under the bar. I will experiment with both.

I had originally planned to use atlas under-table switch motors. After reading what a pain they are I have second thoughts. I don't have room for the tortoise type. (and I prefer not to drill too many holes in my bar) I was thinking about using 1/2" foam as a base and just putting the atlas machine directly under the track... I will have to ask around if that has any chance of success. 

I hope to get started on this after the holidays. Got some parties coming up. Kegged my holiday ale this weekend. 

Click below for full size


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## dablaze

It may be just me, but if I had the opportunity to create a wye like in the middle of your layout I would, if you look at arial photos of real railroads they are often full of Wyes.

I know yours has some elevation there, but I still think it could be done. Its a nice design you have done. Nice man cave too!

Craig


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## tjcruiser

Eric,

Nice to see some planning progress on this wonderful bar layout project.

In looking at your track plan, my eye is focused on the long runs of straight track, and on the relatively long runs of constant-radius curved track. From a visual standpoint, there's not much "action", for lack of a better word. I'm wondering if you could liven up that long left-right straight runs section with some subtle twists and turns ... let flex track be your asset here. Same for the radiused setions ... a little snake twist rising up the hills on the left, perhaps?

It would be nice to incorporate a river / ravine somewhere, too, for visual interest ... and maybe play the track twists in conjunction with that.

Just a thought ..

TJ


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## Eric_L

dablaze said:


> It may be just me, but if I had the opportunity to create a wye like in the middle of your layout I would.
> Craig


As I understand it a wye can be a bit of a pain to wire. More on wiring in a minute...



tjcruiser said:


> Eric,
> I'm wondering if you could liven up that long left-right straight runs section with some subtle twists and turns ... let flex track be your asset here. Same for the radiused sections ... a little snake twist rising up the hills on the left, perhaps?
> 
> It would be nice to incorporate a river / ravine somewhere, too, for visual interest ... and maybe play the track twists in conjunction with that.
> 
> Just a thought ..
> TJ


I absolutely plan to have a river run through it. I plan a hilly section to the left, maybe some vineyards (I grew up in the wine country) I really don't have much in the landscape design dept ideas yet, I figured I'd get the trackbed down then sculpt/landscape around it. I do plan a non operating 'staged' trestle over the water/ravine for my Delorean setup. (BTTF3 was filmed not far from where I grew up; plus it's just cool)

I plan a small town near the center of the layout. There will be a rail overpass for the center run of track for autos to drive under and 'connect' the town to the rest of the layout. I am going to build a replica of the church where my wife and I were married, the bank where I work, a working drive in theater (complete with 'bouncing' stationwagon) a clocktower and then who knows what... Those will all take some time... Years. I may get some generic buildings to bookmark the space while I fabricate the sentimental structures. 

Finally I will have my rail yard to the far right. (yes, the siding where I park spare trains is sorta in the middle of town. So be it) I'm not sure what industry I'll have in the rail yard. I was thinking distillery or brewery - but I doubt most people could recognize what one is just by looking - and I'm not a real fan of any particular brand to 'label' it with as a visual clue. I'm open to suggestions pertaining to that - or a new idea. 

I could add some interest with a few twists, but I don't want to overdo it. I like the idea of the left side snake twist. The 'swoop' at the front is to pull the track away from the bar's edge for better guest visibility. The snake twist on the left would do the same for that side of the bar. Thanks for the idea. I do need to maximize my turn radii. The bar is only 30" wide at it's narrowest end. I think runs of parallel track can be visually interesting too, especially when two trains are running parallel in opposite direction.
----------------------

Wiring;

I had a moment of zen recently. During my Christmas party I noticed that my guests and music were so loud they would not likely ever appreciate the surroundtraxx system. 
I thought about using a stationary decoder, but then figured that the constant 'chugging' and other sounds would get annoying when I entertain... fast. 
I contemplated this for a while when I suddenly realized my guests would appreciate the interactive ability to control the sounds themselves! Yesterday I bought a device which generates various train sounds at 100 Db which I will mount under the bar. I will place buttons around the edge of my bar which my guests can access. I am not sure how good this device will sound, but I have several different backup options all essentially achieving the same goal - putting the sound in my guests hands and making the layout more interactive. I think it'll be a big hit.

Which got me to thinking more about the wiring. I had been running on DCC - and not enjoying it much. I've had three issues when the circuit breaker didn't throw after a derail which cost me a pretty penny. I am constantly running with my breath held. In addition many trains just don't come in DCC. Finally - I ran in DC for a while so I could try out a new train I have yet to convert to DCC and found it seemed to run better (and I wasn't holding my breath as much!)
I figure that I could wire this layout for DC just as easily as I can for DCC. I don't use DCC for sound, so what would I miss by going with DC? DC is cheaper, safer, and more available choices. Any thoughts before I commit? 

-E


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## raleets

Way cool project with ENDLESS design possibilities!
I also was terrified about getting a clean, straight cut with my 1" foamboard until I took a sample piece to my corner cabinet shop and had them run it thru their table saw with a very fine toothed "finish" blade. Voila!! It came out just perfect and I was one happy camper.
Also, if you don't mind creating a little mess, you can use a router to create wiring raceways on the bottom side of the foamboard. The stuff flies all over the place but my shop vac cleaned it up in short order.
Love your Mancave. I have one myself.
Have fun,
Bob


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## raleets

Eric,
If you want some simple, foolproof "water" I strongly suggest Magic Water.
It's a two-part resin/hardener that's about as bubba-proof as it gets.
You can find it by googling "Magic Water.
I used it to create a lake and river on my layout. Great stuff!
Bob


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## tjcruiser

I'll defer to comments on DCC pros/cons to others ...

Just wanted to say I admire your plans-in-action ... And how do I get an invite to one of those noisy parties?!?  

TJ


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## bobgspinball

Sounds like tjcruiser has the right idea. Think in modular, trays. don't need much room under for wiring.

Scratch the Chess set and get a couple of Pinball Machines in there. No pool table, after 6 months all they are is a laundry table.


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## Eric_L

No pool table - air hockey. It gets used at parties but is dang noisy. I'm not really a fan anymore but I'm not sure how to undo it. Laundry is on the opposite side of the house, but the air hockey table does get double duty as a buffet table with a custom cover I made for it.

Chess set is non-negotiable, it takes up zero space and keeps room for the cocktail table. Pinball would be fun, but space is an issue. Even though the man cave is large we do throw big parties. At our Christmas bash we asked friends to bring food for the homeless coalition and they brought over 1500 lbs. of donations. Bummed we didn't quite make it to a ton; some people couldn't make it. I feel confident that next year we'll cross that threshold. Last year was 'only' 500 lbs. Our parties are getting a bit of a reputation. Any time you're in Florida I'll let you stop by, drink some homebrew, and spin the 'Wheel of Destiny'









I'm not really worried much about scenery. I think it will come together just fine. I am just trying to decide if I have a compelling reason not to go with dc. 

I've looked at some threads about coffee table trains and some you tube videos about sculpting foam. I think it will go fine. A mess is no concern. I could use some advice on the industrial train yard theme though. Don't forget ; I only have about 6" of clearance in the layout. Keep in mind; I am not so worried about being period specific. The primary goal is to be fun. Not silly, just fun. I appreciate all of your input.


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## bobgspinball

You can always go Z scale.


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## mafokken

I saw a dentist use a little vibrating tray to get bubbles out of the plaster he was using. Kind of like a paint can shaker, but just a little tray. (For getting the bubbles out of the 'water' resin)

When I buy a house I'm going to build a bar just to do what you're doing. Awesome!


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## wsorfan4003

That whole set up is awesome


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## Eric_L

Monday I pulled the trigger and ordered the Kato track pieces I'll need for the layout. Once it arrives I'll be pulling out the flex track, lay down the foam, then start laying track and setting the grades. This will be my first time doing full scenery and I am almost as terrified as I am excited.


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## tjcruiser

Yeeehaaaaaa!!!! Enjoy the ride!


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## raleets

Eric,
If it's any comfort, be assured that 99% of the folks on this forum have "been there, done that". 
I was absolutely a nervous wreck when I did my first scenery stuff. Now it's one of my favorite tasks on the layout. You can let your imagination and creative juices run wild. Then, if it looks bad to your eye, simply tear it up and start over. No harm, no foul.
Remember Rule #1.....it's YOUR model railroad!! 
Bob


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## Mavryk

WOW, this is a must-keep-an-eye-on thread for me for sure. Eric, your idea to have the layout in the bar is brilliant. A true conversation peice. Makes me wish I lived in Florida so I can head over for a few beers. I also love the over-size chess set. Be sure to keep us all posted on your progress.


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## Carl

Eric............I have seen some great layouts where NO scenery was used. Suggest you lay down the track and see what you have (can always remove or modify). Only takes money.


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## Eric_L

It has been some time, but I've finally gotten a start on my permanent scenery layout. Here is the present status;

Elevations set and checked, track laid out and tested, ready to start wiring. I plan to cut grooves in the foam to tuck the wire into. When I start sculpting the scenery I will remove sections of track and wrap the wired turnouts. 

Note how close I had to cut it on some of my clearances! That is my tallest engine, so everything else should run through just fine as well.

Getting excited to have it done, but more excited to get my bar back!


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## raleets

Eric,
As a guy who loves to personalize most everything, (to my wife's chagrin) I can certainly get excited over your bar layout.
You're going about it the right way.....taking your time, and doing it "right" the first time.
It will be a killer when finished and your guests will be mesmorized watching the trains running underneath their adult beverages.
Good luck, and enjoy the trip!
Bob


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## tjcruiser

Line 'em up!

Uhh ... I mean the trains. Not the whiskey shots ... just yet!

Nice progress!

TJ


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## wsorfan4003

tjcruiser said:


> Line 'em up!
> 
> Uhh ... I mean the trains. Not the whiskey shots ... just yet!
> 
> Nice progress!
> 
> TJ


Whiskey? Shots? What are those??


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## Eric_L

Wiring is 98% done - I just need to reverse polarity on a couple of the switches ( I have a bank of 4 on one switch, two must be open and two must be closed to function properly)

I am getting a bit nervous about the landscaping part:

I am not sure what I should do on the city side of the tracks - put down some flat sheeting and paint it asphalt grey then add grass later or do the opposite and put down grass paper then scrape out and paint the roads? Whichever way I go how do I hide the seams? I also am not exactly sure how to transition from the edge of the tracks to the edge of the scenery, particularly in my hilly part. 

I am a bit excited that my wife has agreed to help me build the downtown structures - about 14 of them. It could get tedious on my own, but sharing time with my wife never does. She will probably do more in the scenery dept too. 

I also am looking for a video screen for my drive-in theater. I have only 4.5" clearance. I thought about an old iTouch, but I found a better solution, if I can find the right size. Many of these digital picture frames can play video clips. If I can find one which will fit then I can just get clips from movies and it will rotate them through automatically for me. The trouble is that I can't find the right size - I can only find 7" frames or 1 1/2" keychains. Nothing in-between (that plays video files)


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## tjcruiser

You're going to have a LIVE drive-in theater screen?!? Now THAT's cool! Very clever touch!

TJ


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## sstlaure

Eric_L said:


> Wiring is 98% done - I just need to reverse polarity on a couple of the switches ( I have a bank of 4 on one switch, two must be open and two must be closed to function properly)
> 
> I am getting a bit nervous about the landscaping part:
> 
> I am not sure what I should do on the city side of the tracks - put down some flat sheeting and paint it asphalt grey then add grass later or do the opposite and put down grass paper then scrape out and paint the roads? Whichever way I go how do I hide the seams? I also am not exactly sure how to transition from the edge of the tracks to the edge of the scenery, particularly in my hilly part.
> 
> I am a bit excited that my wife has agreed to help me build the downtown structures - about 14 of them. It could get tedious on my own, but sharing time with my wife never does. She will probably do more in the scenery dept too.
> 
> I also am looking for a video screen for my drive-in theater. I have only 4.5" clearance. I thought about an old iTouch, but I found a better solution, if I can find the right size. Many of these digital picture frames can play video clips. If I can find one which will fit then I can just get clips from movies and it will rotate them through automatically for me. The trouble is that I can't find the right size - I can only find 7" frames or 1 1/2" keychains. Nothing in-between (that plays video files)


I would think you could modify any of the available in-car video systems to give you a screen size that would work.


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## wingnut163

may be like this.




























it a 1/14 model truck thats RC.


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## Carl

Eric.....thank you for sharing your progress. That is quite a little truck.


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## Eric_L

I know I could find a screen the proper size, but then I'd need to fabricate a board with the guts to play mpegs. Not in my skill set and I'm certain it'd be cheaper to buy an electronic picture frame. Finding one the right size, however, is daunting.


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## Eric_L

All plastered up and ready to paint. I am a bit bummed because I got some big bumps in the track bed. I will likely have to cut through them when I lay my track back down. 

The good news is that I found a monitor that would fit. I haven't had a chance to try it out but I think it will be able to turn on remotely and I am pretty sure it will rotate through various video clips automatically. It was hard finding something the right size which would start without me having to handle it.


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## wsorfan4003

Looks nice!!!


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## Eric_L

I finished the paint last night and just put on the first layer of grass tonight. I'm not sure how heavy of green I should go with. Should I do another layer? Leave it as is? or 'suck up' some of the surplus? (I haven't put the top coat of scenery cement down yet) What do you think?


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## tjcruiser

Nice progress! I think the grass looks good. Nature usually has some bare spots / earth showing through.

The exposed dirt/rock looks lightish / tan to me, though I'm sure camera lighting is affecting things. Is there an area of the country you are trying to model? Maybe add a hint of grey tone to the exposed areas?

The river spilling into the pond in the foreground is going to be a great focal point.

Thanks for the updates!

TJ


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## Carl

That is outstanding.....great progress.


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## Eric_L

Here is my control panel drawer. The three Kato packs each control one section of track - I will be putting colored dots on them to correspond to the color of the track on the control panel. The Bachmann controller runs any AC accessories I add in the future, and the DC throttle is for the turntable motor and the drive-in shag-wagon.


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## Eric_L

The Youtube box above does not seem to want to work. Here is a link instead;
http://youtu.be/F42VfmEl9FQ

done, but not finished. I have it operating and presentable. There are still many many details and projects which should keep me busy for years, but I can now close it up and operate it. I am still fine-tuning the upper deck (bridge and a place where my Delorean derails) but that is easy stuff. I'll be finishing the water soon and then adding more color variation to the grass and some shrubs and trees. I need to build a fence, marquee, toll booth and snack bar at my drive in. You'll also notice the two wire's I've left to power the 12v motor I plan to bury under the 'shag-wagon' at the theater. The motor hasn't arrived yet. I will be adding a grungy bar next to the brewery called "the Wrong Side of the Tracks" complete with chalk outline in front of the entrance. I'll probably add four or more buildings to my downtown. I'm not sure if I prefer the buildings butting up to one another or if I should include alleys and parking lots. I will definitely have a park with a tank or cannon on display. I have more automobiles on the way. The roads still need a lot of attention, (roadside parking, hide seams and edges, center and side lines, etc) but for now they are good enough. Like I said, I have detail work to last me for a long time.
Thanks everyone for your input and interest.

-E


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## wingnut163

nicely done. will keep your guests busy wile they drink.


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## Carl

Very interesting.....looking forward to the "water" stage.


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## ModelWarships

I love it. If I ever add a bar to my house, I will be borrowing your idea!


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## Jeffnscale

Hey Eric,
I'm also returning to the model railroad world. I have built a bar with an n scale layout under glass. TJ has it right - woodland scenics has awesome products for water creation and rigid foam insulation is ideal for landscape. Hopefully I can post a few pictures of my layout soon. Welcome to the club!


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## traction fan

*Lightweight but rigid and strong*



tjcruiser said:


> Eric,
> 
> Very impressive. I think that modular makes good sense, in my opinion, inclusive of your idea to have a subfloor (so to speak) with some channels for wiring below it. If I understand you, only the glass panels themselves remove, so you need to be able to fit any modular pieces through those resulting openings. For that, (and for future occassional service / removal work), the modular subfloor panels will have to be lightweight. That makes me thing foam, rather than plywood. However, foam itself might not be rigid / strong enough for removal. You might want to think of using a foam sandwich panel ... a foam core laminated to very think ply (or even fiberglass) skins.
> 
> For below-subfloor wiring, I'd suggest running a main "wire bus" down the general midsection of your layout, with enough individual conductors in the bus harness to accomodate your anticipated needs. Then, you could locally run short-leads from the bus to any accessory, as needed.
> 
> It common on complex layouts that guys will connect various subsections of track rail not with rail joiners or soldered rail joints directly, but with "under the table" wire leads that are soldered to the ends of adjacent (abutting) sections of track. Those wire leads can be long in length, with a quick-connect plug midlength to allow for an easy disconnect. If you do this, you'll be providing track section to track section conductivity, of course, but not track to track rail alignment. For that, you'll need some sort of alignment pins (or tapered mortise/tenon socket, etc.), such that each modular subsection self-aligns itself with the next. This won't be easy, as the required track to track position tolerance is tight ... especially in N.
> 
> You've got to think about height, too. With a subfloor (and wire chase void below that), you'll have limited space (height) for the layout below the glass. Think about the implications there, of course, as you plan topography contours, sizes of buildings, etc.
> 
> Keeps us posts ... looks like a great project,
> 
> TJ


Eric L;

Great project! From reading through this thread, I gather that the removable sections you want, (and in my opinion will need), have to be light enough, and rigid enough, to be pulled straight up through the opening(s) left after removing one, or more, glass top pieces. Is that correct; or is it possible to have sections be slid out the back?
In either case I have a material that should work well for you. I used this material to build part of my layout. The shape of my sections is quite different from what you have in mind. Don't let the different shape confuse you. It's the material we are interested in. It can be made in whatever shape you want.
Ticrusier's post above mentions a "foam sandwich" with thin wood below, foam on top and maybe another piece of wood atop the foam. The material I call lightwood goes a step further by adding sides of thin wood as well. The resulting panel is extremely light, dead rigid and strong enough to support a surprising amount of weight. The last quality won't mater on your project, as the track and scenery won't weigh enough to begin to test the weight capacity of lightwood.
For your sections, I'd recommend using 1/8" thick luan plywood for the top and bottom pieces, and either 1/4" luan(two pieces of 1/8" glued together) or possibly 1/2"-3/4" pine 
splines, ripped from a larger piece of pine lumber.
Because of your very limited available height, I'd keep the panel thickness to 3/4"-1".
All wood pieces are glued with white(Elmer's type) glue, to 1/2" Styrofoam*. They also glue to each other at the edges. (see photo of "box girder" 1x2 below.) Again your shape will differ, but the construction is the same. I recommend you let the front(a.k.a. "fascia",and rear,("backdrop") Luan pieces stick up above the scenery. They can be used as handles to remove sections. Cloth straps, embedded in the lightwood, are another possibility for lifting handles. 
As for joining track at the edge where two sections meet, use a removable track section to bridge the gap. This allows the main track's ends to be recessed from the section edge, which is important to protect those track ends when you have to lift out a section.
Kato Co. makes a telescoping, stretchable, track section that would work well for the "bridge" track section. See www.walthers.com or www.katousa.com 
A more conventional Atlas 5" straight section could be used instead, if you shave down part of the end ties to allow the rail joiners to be slid back along the rails of the bridge section far enough to be out of the way when you pull out the bridge track. This is not as convenient as using the Kato telescoping section though.
"Snow" can be made from white Styrofoam sanding dust. It can easily be vacuumed up, if all the other scenery material is firmly glued down. For this use white glue thinned about 
five parts water to one part glue and one part isopropyl alcohol. The methods of making scenery are long and involved enough that I don't want to add them to this already long post.

But write back if you have more questions;

Traction Fan

* I agree that blue or pink extruded foam is better for scenery. However the Styrofoam used as a core material in lightwood can be any type, including the white bead board I used,
as blue and pink are not available in my area.


Photo #1 shows pieces and basic assembly of a lightwood 2"x2" next to a conventional 2"x2".
The lightwood version is a fraction of the lumber version's weight yet at least as strong. Lightwood can be made in any shape you choose.

Photo # 2 shows a section of my "bookshelf" railroad. The arches, which can support my 250lb. body, are made of lightwood. I can lift the entire section with two fingers, due to its light weight.


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## Jeffnscale

Hi Eric,
Awesome bar layout!!! I'm nearing completion of one as well. I have some pictures of it in my album and a YouTube video if you're interested. https://youtu.be/3ueW-t84PDE great minds think alike!!
Take care,
Jeff


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