# How to Lionel set from 1939 to 1941 and find missing pieces



## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

Are the Lionel Train Catalogs available anywhere online? I'm not much of an expert on Lionel. Dad received a Lionel Train set for Christmas. He played continually with the train and has many great memories. Then when the family was in the midst of a move the engine and tender "disappeared." By this time he was a young man and moving on to other things. My grandfather (his Dad)eventually found a replacement but Dad said it was not the engine that came with his original setup. Time moved on and now there are grandchildren and great grandchildren. I think he might be ready to pass the train on to another generation. Before he does, I'd like to help him put the original train back together. None of the remaining pieces are collector items or anything rare and everything is well worn. 
I don't have a photo of the remaining train (I will try to get some). I know most of the cars and I thought that if I could find a catalog from the right year I could just pick out what's missing (engine and tender) and hunt them down. Online searches have yielded only merchants interested in selling me catalogs. Maybe there are books that would tell me what's missing? I'm not sure what year. My Dad thinks he got the train in 1940 or or 1939. 
But its been a few years. 
Is there an online source for catalogs from that period?
I realize this is not much to go on. I'll see what else I can find for clues. 

Research from the web:
The Lionel burnt Orange gondola was produced between 1938-42 
The Lionel 3651 Log Dump Car was only made in 1939-1940

PS, thanks for welcoming this newcomer.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Various years appear for sale on ebay. Both original and repro.
I have a service disc set that has only a few selected years.
You may have to go to amazon and find a collector book on sets

What was the engine number?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Underdog said:


> Are the Lionel Train Catalogs available anywhere online? I'm not much of an expert on Lionel. Dad received a Lionel Train set for Christmas. He played continually with the train and has many great memories. Then when the family was in the midst of a move the engine and tender "disappeared." By this time he was a young man and moving on to other things. My grandfather (his Dad)eventually found a replacement but Dad said it was not the engine that came with his original setup. Time moved on and now there are grandchildren and great grandchildren. I think he might be ready to pass the train on to another generation. Before he does, I'd like to help him put the original train back together. None of the remaining pieces are collector items or anything rare and everything is well worn.
> I don't have a photo of the remaining train (I will try to get some). I know most of the cars and I thought that if I could find a catalog from the right year I could just pick out what's missing (engine and tender) and hunt them down. Online searches have yielded only merchants interested in selling me catalogs. Maybe there are books that would tell me what's missing? I'm not sure what year. My Dad thinks he got the train in 1940 or or 1939.
> But its been a few years.
> Is there an online source for catalogs from that period?
> ...


Welcome to the site, I think we have some here somewhere I looked but could not find any.
I don't have a ton of time right now, maybe someone else will know where they are at.

Years ago I picked up a cheap set of Lionel repair cd's for the computer. ( I think they were around $3.75. They have a whole section with catalogs but I think the are Postwar stuff. That is lionels made after 1946 what your asking is considered Prewar, before 1946.

If you had a locomotive number that would be a big help.
What is the locomotive number on the one you have? ( that is the number on the cab)

It could be that it was never really sold as a set too?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T man I think tjcruiser (remember him?) referenced some prewar catalogs somewhere on the site at one time.

I searched and could not find anything, maybe your magic wand works better than mine?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. My dad said that the locomotive and tender that grandfather purchased to replace the ones that went missing were "not as nice" as those he had originally. I can ask him for the numbers but the replacements were acquired 9 years after the original train was purchased.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I would look on ebay for pre war Lionel and see if you can find a match that way. Write down the engine numbers so you can research them later.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

Can you take and post pictures of the pieces you have? There is a book of prewar Lionel catalogs that someone here may have and can spot the set.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I would think the best bet would be to buy some rough copies of the 39, 40, 41 and 42 catalogs on ebay.

Rough catalogs have gotten cheap in the past few years.

I just bought a '38 Lionel catalog, I would be willing to look it up for you if you need, albeit it isn't the year you need.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

The Lionel 3651 was offered between '39 and '42.

It is called an Operating Lumber Car.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The Doyle Book of Lionel Trains Prewar has the sets listed by number not year. So the best way is to find the sets with a specific engine number then match the cars up. 

I don't remember any prewar catalog sites.


1940 the burnt orange gondola 2812. It was green before then. appeared and went until 1942. Two engines are 1666 0r the 225. The 225 used two gondolas with the log car. So determine which engine. Both ere six wheel drive steam engines.

The Big CLue. DId it have the electric crane? He should remember that. a 30 buck set then. set 269w


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Also remember that the original Lionel catalogs are not the end-all authority to the train sets they sold.

Generally speaking, the catalogs are an excellent reference, and would be my very first step in identifying a set, but there were changes to the sets from what was shown in the catalogs.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

The Greenberg catalog reprint book for pre-war is probably the best reference for this as the other books really do not show sets. I have the post-war GB catalog books but never picked up the pre-war version. I just looked around on ebay and there is only one for sale and it's quite pricey. Once upon a time my library carried it maybe yours does too?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

clovis said:


> The Lionel 3651 was offered between '39 and '42.
> It is called an Operating Lumber Car.


Yes, this log car is part of the remaining pieces of the train.


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

clovis said:


> Also remember that the original Lionel catalogs are not the end-all authority to the train sets they sold....... there were changes to the sets from what was shown in the catalogs.


I was worried about this.


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

T-Man said:


> The Doyle Book of Lionel Trains Prewar has the sets listed by number not year. So the best way is to find the sets with a specific engine number then match the cars up.
> 
> I don't remember any prewar catalog sites.
> 
> ...


Dad's train has two of the burnt orange gondolas. Years ago he told me that he had the crane, a crossing gate (that apparently never worked properly because it would "stop the train and never let it go again") and a tall green street light. 
I seem to think that he once said that his Dad bought him a few things. The crane may have been one of those extra add-ons. He will know when I ask him. I know the "gate" was one of the things that was he said his Dad gave him as an add-on. That gate was not part of the original setup. 
He has a the big box in the basement with everything tossed in there. I do recall that one year he "thinned things out" and tossed items that were considered "inoperable junk", including some non-Lionel tin plate trains and engines that were "Flyers" or something like that. Again forgive my lack of knowledge. 
I will look for images of these other things (#1666 and #225) and see if he has any recollection.
I do recall that some of the cars had automated couplers but not all of them. I'm not 100% sure which ones did not auto-couple (they may have just been broken but I think they had knuckles.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Underdog said:


> I was worried about this.


I would still use the catalogs as my first research, without a doubt.

My real point was that if you have 5 cars of the original set, and one of them doesn't match the catalog exactly, it might have simply been a substitution at the factory.

Also, the 1948 Lionel catalog shows a pair of diesel engines, the 2333 AA set, as black with a red nose. Lionel produced them in silver and red, but never black and red.

KWIM?

The catalogs will be close, though.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The crane was part of the set, hence the two gondolas. The 2000 number signifies electro couplers. They have prewar box style couplers.

I found the set at auction, good pictures. CHECK IT OUT.


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

I called home. Dad says the replacement engine (purchased used) is 224. The orange gondolas are 2652 and one of the orange 2652 gondolas has an automatic coupler on one end and a knuckle style coupler on the other. This would seem to me to be quite odd. The brown caboose is 477618, lights up, and the windows are outlined in red. 
From talking to Dad I'm not certain that most of the other train cars were not also absconded. Sorry for the confusion. I'm not the "history detective" that I thought I was. I will keep digging. 

Listening to my father, the train was quite an extravagant purchase and out of character for the family. Most toys were "home made" or hand-me-downs. He was quite surprised to find it under the tree when he was eight. 
Knitted socks and a mittens were the norm for the holiday and activities centered around visits to extended family members with large dinners, an extra slice of pie, and story telling. Of course everyone wanted to see the train run and take a turn blowing the whistle.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=22465 here's some info on the 224.


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

sjm9911 said:


> http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=22465 here's some info on the 224.


Thanks for this link. The description of the 224 from the link raises a question. As a teenager why would Dad have considered the postwar 224 to be less appealing than a his original prewar 1666 he first received as a child? (pretty sure it was a 1666 but not 100% yet)? When I read the following statement regarding the 224 the two would seem almost identical:
"The 224 steam engine is also known as a Prairie-type locomotive. This mid-size steam engine is a dependable locomotive and it shares its boiler casting with the 1666 steam engine. ....The 224 was introduced in the first year of Lionel's postwar production era, 1945. Its number and boiler casting were carryover items from the prewar era. Practically all of the updates or modifications centered on the internal components."

Based on this information it makes sense that the 224 would have selected by my grandfather as a replacement. However, if they share the same casting would they not be identical to a teenager? I'm confused as to why a postwar 224 was "not as nice." Might he have remembered it differently? Here are pictures from the web comparing a post war 224 and a prewar 1666. I don't have a trained eye for this but can anyone notice a difference? The 224 would seem to be a prefect replacement for the 1666. What could I be missing? Would they both have had the same functions in terms of smoke or operating headlights? What does the the statement "updates or modifications centered on the internal components" mean exactly? New wiring?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

T-Man said:


> The crane was part of the set, hence the two gondolas. The 2000 number signifies electro couplers. They have prewar box style couplers.
> 
> I found the set at auction, good pictures. CHECK IT OUT.


This set listed for sale is in great shape. Any yes these box style couplers match most of the ones from the set I'm looking for. However, the set I'm looking for had a different caboose #2757.


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

While the 1666 and the 224 shared the same boiler there is a difference in the drive train. The 1666 has smaller wheels and sliding shoe pickups. The 224 has the Baldwin Disc wheels and roller pickups. The drive train used in the 224 is the same one used in the 225 and 226. The 1666 was an 027 engine and the 224 was o-gauge. Both engines were made after the war. The 1666 became the 2026 and the 224 was dropped. The 225 became the 675/2025 and the 226 became the 726.
Robert


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=1666 
The 1666 was also made pre war.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

:thumbsup:The 224 is more desirable because it has Baldwin drive disc and rollers not slides.

The 869w set with a 225 engine and 2235w tender match your cars. Made in 1941 for 31.95 It has the Tuscan caboose 2757, crane, log car 3651 and 2652 ,two burnt orange gondolas.

On this page

Nice set!:thumbsup:


Auction description

Lionel prewar O gauge outfit no. 869W, circa 1941 freight set in individual OBs with set box and instruction booklet containing; 225 black steam loco, 2235W tender, 3651 automatic lumber car, two burnt orange 2652 gondolas, 2757 tuscan Pennsylvania caboose, 165 gray magnet crane in OB with instruction sheet, 165-83 bag of steel blanks, red inspection tag, controller and bin, RCS track set and 167 whistle controller. Set is C8 except for lumber car which has some paint nicks along side edges. The crane has been rewired with red wire. The crane is C6. The loco, tender, 167 and caboose OBs have original cardboard inserts. Individual OBs show some wear with most flaps present. Crane OB has label intact and sealed on label end. Set box shows some wear with part of one top flap missing. The label is bright and clean and fully intact


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

Quote: sjm9911
The 1666 was also made pre war.

Sorry, did not mean to imply that the 1666 was not made pre-war.

T-Man.
You beat me to it. Just dug out all my pre-war cataloge's to find the same set.
If that is the set his father received, we can understand why the engine disappeared. A very desirable engine and one that will be expensive to replace especially with the die-cast tender.

I wonder what that boxed set sold for on live auctions. It was listed in 2009
Robert


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

T-Man said:


> :thumbsup:The 224 is more desirable because it has Baldwin drive disc and rollers not slides.
> 
> The 869w set with a 225 engine and 2235w tender match your cars. Made in 1941 for 31.95 It has the Tuscan caboose 2757, crane, log car 3651 and 2652 ,two burnt orange gondolas.
> 
> ...


T-man, I think this is it! How did you figure it out?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

Regarding the pre-war 1666. Is there a significant possibility that the set came with a 1666 and not a 224? I finally made it to Dad's house and took some photos of the train set. Note: Dad said that he did have a crane. 
The replacement engine 224 was there with the plastic tender. However the box that the engine (224) is supposed to be stored in says 1666 on the outside and the 244 engine does not fit into this box (the one marked 1666). The box marked 1666 is too small. So that leaves me wondering. Why is that box (#1666) there? Did Lionel ever sell a similar set with the 1666?
Also there is a large box marked "022." What is "022?"


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

O22 is an O gauge switch.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Is there a rubber stamped number on the bottom of the tender, in either white or silver ink?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

clovis said:


> Is there a rubber stamped number on the bottom of the tender, in either white or silver ink?


The tender that is with the set now is stamped with silver ink on the underside. (again, the original tender may have been taken when the original engine was).


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

I can't find those cars listed with a 1666 in the pre-war catalog's. Always a chance for an uncatalogued set. Another possibility is that it was a split up set from the dealer. Does your dad remember having the set box that this would have come in ?

The 224 in the picture looks to be a pre-war casting that was sent out early post war. The cab floor looks to be straight across. That was changed to a rounded floor in 46. It also has blackened handrails.

Also the 2757 does not show up in the catalog until 41. Is your dad sure about when he received this set ?
Robert


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My service disk has the 39,40,41 catalogs in pdf. I matched your decription to the sets. Two gondolas had a crane included in the set. The caboose made it a 1941 set, not 40. that is the difference. My Doyle book has listed sets but I did not need it. Google had the rest.

I would get a 1666 and a 224 also. Both are nice engines. I am partial to the 224. I lost an auction for one years ago with a guy who had a gold masterchard. I have three now.

One gondola has a postwar staple end truck with a knuckle. Your 224 is prewar, hence the black railing and straight carear cab.

A CD disc set will have the catalogs in PDF. Not all the years but the most important ones.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

Underdog said:


> The tender that is with the set now is stamped with silver ink on the underside. (again, the original tender may have been taken when the original engine was).


What number is on the bottom of the tender?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

The silver number on the bottom of the tender is 2466 W.
I called Dad and he said that it could have been 1941. He would have been 9 years old on that Christmas in 1941. 

Did Lionel release 1941 sets in 1941 or is the release similar to automotive companies where the 1941 model comes out in late 1940? 

Why is the empty box labeled "1666" too small (in height) for the 224? Is this because of the difference between the size of "027" and "O"? The smaller box? Or simply because of a design with more diminutive drivers?


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

Frisco Firefly said:


> I can't find those cars listed with a 1666 in the pre-war catalog's. Always a chance for an uncatalogued set. Another possibility is that it was a split up set from the dealer. Does your dad remember having the set box that this would have come in ?
> Robert


I called Dad and here is his response, "No, there was never a large *set* box. The individual pieces were all placed in boxes and all of these individual boxes went into a heavy (thick) cardboard box. This heavy box was *not* a Lionel box. There was never a "set" box. "

Does it sound like I'm missing a 2235W tender?


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

The 224 is just shy of being 1/4 inch taller than the 1666. 2466 would be the correct no. for the tender post war 224

Being that there was no set box, my guess would be the dealer sold the original 225e and 165 crane to someone else and put a 1666 in its place to sell as a set. That would have reduced the price for what your father received.

Pre-war and coming out of the depression these trains were very expensive for a lot of folks. The 224 is a nicer engine than the 1666 and since it is an early post war engine 1945/1946 and was actually made prewar I would keep that engine and look for a pre-war 1666.
Robert


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Underdog, there should be no difference between the height of the engines, ( at least according to the sight I linked) . I have a 1666 and will measure it for you. I would think the box would fit. Maybe the site is wrong, wouldn't be the first time. If they are the same except for the pick up rollers / shoes it should fit. That is unless the pre war 1666 was different from the post war one. I even managed to confuse my self with this post, lots of stuff to consider.


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

I had just placed my 1666 next to my 224 and that is how I came up with the 1/4 inch difference in height.
Robert


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

Underdog
Here is something to think about and ask your dad. Since the 1666 is not a part of this set to begin with and the replacement is a much nicer engine that he played with. Does he really need a 1666.

Even if you get a 1666 it won't be the one he had back in the 40s.

From my own experience. I have all my childhood trains. They were bought used in 46 or 47. They are all prewar trains. Some had been changed somewhat either by my father or the person he bought them from. At one time I was of a mind to put them back to original. What changed my mind. What I have is they way that I had them and played with them. That is the way they will stay as long as I own them.

Maybe that makes since or maybe not.
Robert


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

Frisco Firefly said:


> ....Does he really need a 1666?.....Even if you get a 1666 it won't be the one he had back in the 40s......Maybe that makes sense or maybe not.
> Robert


In my opinion this is a very relevant question and its hard to answer. From the story I was told he grew up as a child playing with the original set. It was not until his later teenage years when he was headed off to college (I believe he was only 16 when he started college) that his father's health took an unexpected turn for the worse and the family moved to the city. Shortly after this time the engine (and apparently the tender) caught the eye of someone and disappeared. No one knew the engine was gone at first. It was not until the next Christmas that the train (and tender) were discovered missing. It was at that time that a replacement was sought. The replacement engine (224) and replacement tender (2466 W) were purchased used from the dealer. 

So, this still does not answer the question and Dad never made mention of any of this or ever complained. It was only a few years ago when the whole family was home for Christmas and we were setting up the train (like we always do) for the grandchildren. He was pulling the engine out and told my brother and I the story... "the 224 was not the engine he played with as a child."
For Dad it was just a story. My brother and I could see that more than just an engine disappeared that year. We thought how hard it must have been for him at this time of his life. He lost his Dad and his mother needed to find work, sell the home, and he was torn with decisions about going away to college. The train was (and is) probably not that important to him. 

My brother and I tried to piece all this together once before however we failed miserably. All the years, the models, the combinations, just seem endless. Then I found this web site and found all these people that know so much about trains. To me there was always something about the 224 that seem off just a bit. I don't know if the couplings are at the same height or what. 

Just knowing what Dad's set used to look like might be enough for me. It been fascinating to learn all this about the train. 

Note: There *was* a crane with the rest of the set. He said it finally wore out, broke beyond repair and was tossed. That is why the crane is not in the photo.


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## clovis (Jan 5, 2014)

I really think that Frisco Firefly is on the right track.

It could have been a make up set by the local dealer. I can easily imagine the buyer leaning on a counter looking at a catalog, and saying "I like this set. Got one I can have?" The dealer might not have had the sets in inventory, but might have had loose stock of the cars in the set. 

"If you want this 1666, and let me fill in the set from stock on the shelves, I'll throw in an O22 switch for half price" I can hear the dealer saying.

Remember, the depression was going on, and a train set would have been a costly toy. If the Lionel dealer was struggling with slow business, they might have not ordered the stock from Lionel. 

As well, if the set was purchased close to Christmas, the dealer could have been out of stock.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

He threw the crane away! 
That is a no no here on the site.
THERE IS NO GARBAGE!
(a moment of silence for the tossed crane, take your hats off please.)

This thread is like a Angela Lansbury novel.
Detective Jessica Fletcher would have figured this out already and identified who the culprit was that took the locomotive.

Why don't you set them up and run them around for Dad?
Put them under the Christmas tree for the holidays?
Build a shelf and display them on the wall?

I think he should pass them on to you, then when your ready you could pass them on.
I would make sure that whoever you pass them on to will keep them. A lot come on the site saying they just "inherited" some trains and have no interest in trains at all and just want to unload them for the $$$$.:smilie_daumenneg:

If you want to keep them in the family make sure whoever gets them will keep them.:smokin:


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## Underdog (Mar 11, 2014)

T-Man said:


> ....One gondola has a postwar staple end truck with a knuckle. Your 224 is prewar, hence the black railing and straight carear cab..


Any idea why the tender had a knuckle coupler and the one gondola would have a staple end truck with a knuckle on one end, why this combination when everything else has the older couplers.... and given that the 224 is pre-war?


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

The 224 that you have was put together post war from left over prewar boiler castings. When the war started Lionel shut down production of toy trains and the factory's produced equipment for the war. Lionel used up what was left over to put out trains after the war.

The first train set that Lionel put out in 1945 was a 224 set. Using a post was knuckle coupler was a common practice to allow the use of postwar engines with with prewar freight cars. The gondola is the easiest to change from one prewar truck to a postwar truck. I also use a gondola for a transition car.

The coupler will work with your activation track if it has the sliding shoe on the bottom of the truck if it is like the one on the tender truck.
Robert


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