# New train !!!



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have been piecing together a new train. Here is a pic of the
motive power. A-B_A set. Lead A loco is dual motor powered.
B unit is a dummy with railsounds, Rear A is a dummy. More
pics can be found in General model trains under "get anything new". Southern Pacific with the "Daylight" paint. Going to eat lunch then post the other pics. All the train is new and unrun. That will change. Train is from 1981.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

That's nice. I like the paint scheme.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Finally we get to see it!! Now all you need is the NP set.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Funny you should say that. I was checking ebay just today for NP stuff. I doubt I will
do it, but it would be nice.

The other pics are up at "general model train discussion".


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Flyernut, The motors in my SP are different than what our MoPacs are. From a diagram on the A-A box the motors are vertical shaft. The MoPacs are horizontal shaft can motors.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

mopac said:


> Flyernut, The motors in my SP are different than what our MoPacs are. From a diagram on the A-A box the motors are vertical shaft. The MoPacs are horizontal shaft can motors.


The motors in the S.P. should be horizontal double worm motors similar to the original Gilbert setup only using an electronic reverse instead of the drum type. I believe the 1982 Erie PA'S were the first to get can motors. They had problems early on and there was a retro kit offered that had resistors and weights that was supposed to help. In 1983 the motors were a different can setup from the previous Erie PA'S. Maybe the box has incorrect information, it wouldn't be the first time that happened.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

The SP A's (at least mine) have motors that look like but are not like post-war AF. They have two field windings which is called Pul-Mor in Lionel world. One winding is forward and one is reverse. The electronic reverse unit energizes the appropriate winding for the desired direction. This reverse unit is unique to these engines (as far as I can tell) and is no longer available (as far as I can tell). Mine failed in one direction after perhaps 20 minutes of running. They are probably repairable as the failure is the output transistor (one for each direction), but I could not find any information on the transistor/triac or whatever it is.

I installed an old electronic Scaled Tin Rail reverse unit from the early 80's which uses relays for the field switching. This uses only one field winding and works fine, but is a bit difficult to fit (I had to grind a bit on two unused mounting studs on the shell).

Current Dallee reverse units are rated at 4 amps or 10 amps; some folks say that the 10 amp unit is needed for this 2 motor loco. I measured the current at near stall and saw well less than 4 amps. But, I had the relay unit, so decided to be safe. 

Let me know and I can post/send my wiring diagrams and notes on this mod.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks Mike. Hope I don't need the wiring diagram, but you never know. If so I will contact you. So it was the reverse unit that failed? I also have the mopac flyer by
lionel and I think it has an electronic reverse unit. I have not run either of these.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

Yes, the reverse unit failed. AFAIK, the SP Alco's have a different reverse unit than later locos. I think can motors have permanent magnet fields rather than the wound field of the AF and early Lionel motors. The can motors are actually running on DC with the reverse unit rectifying the AC to DC and reversing the polarity to reverse the motor. There should be only two wires on a DC motor.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I like DC can motors. You can rebuild an AC motor easily. Usually on a can motor, when it fails you throw it away and get a new motor. But they are low cost. I have a 1992 lionel O gauge steamer that
was supposedly lionel's first DC can motor in a steamer. It works like you said. You power it with AC but reverse unit sends DC to it. It is a wonderful running locomotive. My O gauge diesels are 2004 and newer and they have DC can motors. And run great. I was having real trouble on a 1952 AF 282 steamer. Motor was running at about half speed and was getting very very hot. I bet I took that thing apart 25 times hoping when I put it back together it would work correctly. Turned out to be a bad armature. What was frustrating was the original armature checked out fine on my amp meter. But it wasn't. I was going to do a DC can motor conversion kit on it. Glad I didn't. Different armature
and it does great now.

So the 1981 AF SP PAs are AC motors, not DC can motors?

DC can motors seem to run smoother and have better slow speed operation.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

cramden said:


> The motors in the S.P. should be horizontal double worm motors similar to the original Gilbert setup only using an electronic reverse instead of the drum type. I believe the 1982 Erie PA'S were the first to get can motors. They had problems early on and there was a retro kit offered that had resistors and weights that was supposed to help. In 1983 the motors were a different can setup from the previous Erie PA'S. Maybe the box has incorrect information, it wouldn't be the first time that happened.


I've heard several times that the Eries were bad runners, and prone to failure. I haven't heard that said about the early 90's sets though.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I probably should have quit when I was ahead.

Flyernut, are the NP 80s or 90s?


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

flyernut said:


> I've heard several times that the Eries were bad runners, and prone to failure. I haven't heard that said about the early 90's sets though.


If I remember the only problems were in the early 80's. I had the Wabash freight set from 1988 and had no issues.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

mopac said:


> I probably should have quit when I was ahead.
> 
> Flyernut, are the NP 80s or 90s?


mopac, the NP set came out in 1992. Haven't heard any problems with them.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

The SP Alco's have open frame AC motors very similar to the Gilbert AF diesels with the exception of the dual field winding. I don't have a AF Alco to compare, but the overall arrangement of the motor and gearing appears similar: horizontal armature, worm on each end that drives the axle on each end of the truck. The brush holders seem to be somewhat different. Mine runs pretty well (now) with decent but not great slow speed, i.e., no creeping.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks Mike. I sure did not know the SPs were AC motors. Sounds like if I have trouble with the dual fields just put in a dallee reverse unit. Hey, maybe I won't have any trouble
with the original setup. LOL. Its possible. 

I did a slick move on my Williams O gauge diesel. It just ran too fast, no slow speed even at low throttle setting. I like slow speed sometimes.. I was not happy. I found an article
online on changing the motor wiring from parallel to series. Oh my gosh what a difference.
I am extremely happy with the Williams now. Williams are known for running too fast.
Some Williams now even have a switch on the bottom to go from parallel wiring to series.
Mainly on their switchers where you need slow running. So I do not think it will hurt anything on mine. Kinda weird cutting wires on a brand new locomotive but I did it.


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## Mikeh49 (Sep 20, 2015)

Putting motors in series just cuts the voltage in half, more or less. Should not hurt them and they will indeed be slower for a given voltage across the pair.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> I probably should have quit when I was ahead.
> 
> Flyernut, are the NP 80s or 90s?


The stuff you and I bought are indeed 90's.. We shouldn't have any issues at all. If worse comes to worse, I would just pick-up a post war motor and chassis and switch them out. But I think we'll be all-right...:smilie_daumenpos:


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