# New to trains - Roadbed & track questions



## cpotter638

Hello. This will be our 1st train build. Just finished construction on our new home. Had carpenters build a finished (stained) base for an elevated train in our boys' bedroom. This is located approximately 8' above the floor and tunnels in and out of the adjacent bathroom. The following applies:


Will be purchasing a MTH "UP 4-6-0 Steam" set.
Will be using Gargrave's flexible track
Diameter of curves = approximately 60"
Plan on installing a road-bed. Purpose is primarily for sound deadening. Roadbed will be barely visualized (if at all) given that train is 8' above the floor.
Want ability to remove track and roadbed in the future without great difficulty.

Initial questions:

Road bed material - Midwest cork vs. Woodland scenics? Main goals - ease of installation. Quiet. Flat (derailment bad at 8' above floor)
Road bed installation - I've seen various glues, nail, & stapling. Suggestions? Goals - ease of installation & flatness.
Track installation - I was planning on nailing. This OK? Other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for all the help.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You can pick up the underlayment that is used for putting down wood floors, it's about 3/16" thick and pretty cheap in a roll. It should be pretty easy to deal with.

DO NOT NAIL THE TRACK! When you run nails from the track into the solid support, you also transmit all the noise you were trying to quiet with the underlayment.  You can use glue to the roadbed, or some folks use cable ties. Solidly bonding the track to the shelf will defeat any sound deadening.

To bond the underlayment to the shelf, given the easy of removal option, I'd consider something like double-sided carpet tape. You'll be able to peal it up pretty easily if you need to, but it'll stay until you do.


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## tjcruiser

2nd on the floating floor foam underlayment. Several different mfrs available. Check with Home Depot, Lowes, etc. You'll see different costs/grades ... go for something more substantial/thick ... good sound/vibratoin dampening characteristics.

Why would you need to remove the underlayment from the shelf? I can see wanting to remove the track itself, but why not just glue the underlayment down? (contact cement; double-sided carpet tape, per John; etc.)

TJ


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## cpotter638

John & TJ - thanks for the help. Very much appreciated.

TJ suggested a "thicker" underlayment. How thick are we talking? During home construction we had a custom train bridge made. Bridge will not have underlayment. Installation of bridge assumed we'd be using cork or some other underlayment material on adjacent shelf roughly 5mm in thickness. John's suggested thickness of 3/16" is spot on. TJ - in order to get good sound deadening, how thick were you thinking?

I like the idea of carpet tape for underlayment attachment. Thanks.

John - thanks for your comment re: not nailing the track. Will definately not nail. Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm apprehensive to glue. Primarily due to the permanent nature of such. 

If I do use glue, any specific product suggested?

Having a hard time visualizing how cable ties would be used to fix track. Sounds much less permanent. I assume cable ties wrap around the track ties, but attach to what?

Thanks again for all the help.
Chad


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## gunrunnerjohn

Here's 6mil underlayment: http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-L...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051


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## JohnAP

*moisture issues*

One thing to think about. It's a cool idea to have the train tunnel into and through the bathroom, but you may have some track maintainance/electrical issues from the humidty in the bathroom (showers, etc)


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## THE TYCO MAN

I suggest a plexi glass fence to protect the train in case of an accident. This seems to be a big project!


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## tjcruiser

Agreed on floating floor underlayment thickness ... the stuff I've used is about 1/4" thick. Cheaper stuff is 1/8" or so.


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## cpotter638

Thanks for all the comments & help.

In boys' bathroom - toilet & shower are separate from the sink area (with door in between). Train runs through sink area. Assuming boys keep door closed when showering (big assumption), I would think the train track would be OK.

The whole room (including) elevated train shelf is farily elaborate with a western painted mural and other features. We thought about a plexiglass fence, but didn't think it would look right with the room. Thought about making a pseudo-fence with copper posts and stringing wire from post to post; however, we were already well over budget with the house. Had to abandon that idea during construction. 

Now that construction is complete, we will have to rethink the protective fence. Being that the train will not be touched by the boys and we can potentially govern the speed, do we need a protective fence? If so, any other ideas (other than plexiglass). I can attach photos of the layout if desired. I spoke with someone previously who spoke of some type of train guard made by "TS model designs". Paintable and made of "neoprene plastic". I searched online, but didn't find anything. Has anyone ever used this or have a link?

Thanks again for the help.


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## tjcruiser

We have a discussion on an interesting (but unidentified) protective rail, here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=10942


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## shaygetz

Dabs of silicone caulk every few ties should do for an adhesive, easy to remove yet a solid hold with little sound transmission.


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## cpotter638

Thanks for the silicone suggestion.


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## cpotter638

Got the underlayment nearly done. Floating floor underlayment & carpet tape were very easy to work with. Thanks for the suggestion.

Train set we are purchasing - http://www.justrains.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6477. 

Have a few questions re: track layment. I will be using 100% Gargrave's O-scale flexible track for layout (Product #201 - Don't need phantom rail as track will not be seen with elevated location).

Plan on using standard silicone caulk for fixation of track to underlayment. Such as - http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...eyword=silicone caulk clear&storeId=10051http. I assume a product such as this is fine?
Will be purchasing track & train from Justrains.com. From what I can tell, 3 rail joiners come with each piece of track. I'm guessing I'll need more than what come with the track. Are these the extra rail joiners I'll need - http://www.justrains.com/webstore/i...duct_info&cPath=52_269_62_63&products_id=1712? 
Don't have a Dremel. Worth investing in one specifically for this project? Dremel make things significantly easier?
Curves - Avoid joining track on curves if at all possible? If not possible, stagger junctions like in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyucN1tV0zY&feature=related?
Soldering. All joints get soldered? In above video, he does not solder joints. As I will be working 8' in the air, soldering will be difficult. However, I will certainly solder if recommended.
Track wire connectors. Is this what I need - http://www.justrains.com/webstore/i...t_info&cPath=52_269_62_71_73&products_id=1788?
Any other items I'll need before placing my order (other than train set and wiring)? What about track cleaning solution and liquid smoke?
Thanks and sorry for all the Noob questions.


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## tjcruiser

I'll defer to other more experienced track guys for the majority of your questions, but I justed wanted to offer a thumbs-up on getting a Dremel ... 1001 used for model train work, with a host of attachments (grinding discs, buffers, diamond-dust "drills", etc.)

TJ


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## Gansett

Hope others jump in and correct me but I thought it was latex caulk and not silicon used to adhere track.


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## NIMT

I got this one:
I use Latex, Home depot has Alex that works perfect.
The difference between silicone and latex.
Silicone, clear or colored, non water cleanup (very difficult clean off from tools and self), sticky right out of the tube, thick, Water proof, difficult to manipulate and move, elastic mildly flexible.
Latex, clear and colored, easy water cleanup, non sticky while wet, thin, Water proof when dry, Very easy to manipulate, move and thin, elastic and very flexible.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's almost impossible to get silicone off stuff after it cures, I know that for sure!


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## cpotter638

Re: sound transmission. I assume silicone vs. latex makes no difference?


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## NIMT

I personally think latex is better, it's softer and more pliable.


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## Nevada wheel

can i move in??? LOL :laugh:


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## cpotter638

Thanks for the reponses. I plan on getting a "Dremel 4000" and using Latex caulk. 

Remaining questions:


Will be purchasing track & train from Justrains.com. From what I can tell, 3 rail joiners come with each piece of track. I'm guessing I'll need more than what come with the track. Are these the extra rail joiners I'll need - http://www.justrains.com/webstore/i...duct_info&cPath=52_269_62_63&products_id=1712 
Curves - Avoid joining track on curves if at all possible? If not possible, stagger junctions like in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyucN1tV0zY&feature=related  
Soldering. All joints get soldered? In above video, he does not solder joints. As I will be working 8' in the air, soldering will be difficult. However, I will certainly solder if recommended. 
Track wire connectors. Is this what I need - http://www.justrains.com/webstore/i..._info&cPath=52_269_62_71_73&products_id=1788 

Thanks again for the help.


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## cpotter638

Again - have train shelf made of wood. 5 mm underlayment has been placed. I will be attaching track with latex caulk. Using flexible Gargrave's track.

Does track need to be temporarily "fixed" while gluing curves? Or will bent lengths of flexible track stay where you put them while glue dries?

If track needs to be fixed - how? Weigh down with something? Or use some type of temporary pins / nails, such as:

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/item/ST1432/page/1

My issue with above nails - don't know how easily these will temporary anchor into solid wood shelf.

Thanks again for the help.


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## gunrunnerjohn

There's no need to solder the joiners, I'd just make sure you run enough power drops along the tracks, that should do it.


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## cpotter638

gunrunnerjohn said:


> There's no need to solder the joiners, I'd just make sure you run enough power drops along the tracks, that should do it.


I was planning on power connecting to the track in only 1 location. Apparently this is not suggested (perhaps only if not soldering the joiners).

I will have 60' of track. Connect power in how many locations?


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## New Berlin RR

I would say 4 connections...or 3 every 20' but 4 might be better so you could go about 15'


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## waltr

cpotter638 said:


> Again - have train shelf made of wood. 5 mm underlayment has been placed. I will be attaching track with latex caulk. Using flexible Gargrave's track.
> 
> Does track need to be temporarily "fixed" while gluing curves? Or will bent lengths of flexible track stay where you put them while glue dries?
> 
> If track needs to be fixed - how? Weigh down with something? Or use some type of temporary pins / nails, such as:
> 
> http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/item/ST1432/page/1
> 
> My issue with above nails - don't know how easily these will temporary anchor into solid wood shelf.
> 
> Thanks again for the help.


Yes, hold the track down until the glue dries. Even on the straight sections.

There are many way to hold the track down:
Weights works. If you need to distribute the weight then put a piece of wood on the track first.
Thin nails work, just don't put them in all the way so they are easily removed.
Even the large 'T' pins work (nails in the link). For more 'holding power' put them in at an angle the another one the the opposite angle so that the two pin 'capture' a tie or the rail to firmly hold the track flat on the roadbed and in the correct place. These are intended for foam under the roadbed so it depends on what 'wood' you have under the track. I don't have problems putting them into luan or soft pine but forget any harder woods.

I tend to use all of the above methods depending on which part I'm working on, what I have handy and my mood.


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## Shovel Man

If a fence becomes needed due to it raining trains you could make a Cedar rail fence. It would need to be about 1/2 as tall as the train which would be out of scale but it should look better than a copper fence, and way better than plastic.


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## cpotter638

Got track laid - finally. Electric run.

Tried train for a few min. Worked with little problem.

Had to wait a few days until had more time. Tried train again tonight. I turned train on with SU/SD button on remote. I have train sounds. However, train will not move. Headlight also out. Looked through instruction book. Cannot find solution. 

Any idea what is wrong? Thanks again for the help.


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## cpotter638

Update - 

Headlight is working (it may have been working initially, but I didn't notice due to lights in room).

Still cannot start engine.

Measured track voltage. 19V. 

Drawbar seems to be connected properly.


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## gunrunnerjohn

What's the exact make/model of the locomotive?


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## cpotter638

I bought the MTH Union Pacific 4-6-0 Steam R-T-R Train Set with Proto-Sound 3.0.

I messed with the train for about 3 hrs last night. Turned it off and on. Hooked, unhooked, and re-hooked the drawbar several times. 

Most of the time, when turning on the train:
I hear normal start up sounds
Sometimes the headlight turns on. Sometimes it does not.
No smoke
Engine will not run
Whistle and bell work fine

At one point last night, after disconnecting / reconnecting the drawbar, I turned the train on and got smoke and the engine ran. I wanted to see how stable this was. So I turned the train back off. Turned back on. Engine and smoke worked again. Turned the train back off. Added 2 cars. Turned back on. Got smoke and engine running. Turned back off. Added the caboose. Turned back on. No smoke. No engine. Caboose lighting worked normally. I took the caboose and cars back off. Could not get the engine to run or smoke again.

After the above I tried to experiment in other ways. Currently, when sitting on the track, engine / tender will not run. Will not smoke. However, by experimenting, I learned that if I lean the tender to one side (lifting all wheels of one side off the track), the engine starts to smoke and move. It does this reliably. If I lean the tender to the other side, I get the same result (engine smokes and moves). 

To me, the above suggests some kind of short in either the tender or the drawbar. Drawbar is attached correctly. There is an audible snap when I connect the engine & tender. 

Any suggestions on what to do next?


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## gunrunnerjohn

It certainly sounds like an issue either in the tether or the tender, hard to say exactly. Since it will run with orientation, my guess is a loose/broken wire or a loose/bad connector.


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## waltr

Wiggle the engine & tender on the track. If it starts then there is either a pick-up problem or a wiring problem in the loco or tender.


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## cpotter638

Wiggling the engine and tender on track does not move the engine or produce smoke.

I assume I probably need to proceed with MTH warranty service?

Thanks again for the help!


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think I'd certainly return it under warranty at this point.


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