# Is the Big Boy 4014 diesel or not?



## BigEd (Oct 28, 2014)

As it says in the heading...? I know a guy who knows a guy that told him this story. The BB's steam is just for show and it's really driven internally by a diesel motor and thus AC or DC motors (not sure about all the terminology here as I only work in IT). 

I called hogwash (might have used stronger words). My father was a steam engineer and fireman (later diesel and also commuter electric) when I was a little black sooted tike. I've loved being on the footplate since I can remember. 
I have no idea how in the hell they can make this work. What I do know is, they have converted 4014 over to oil to make the tree huggers a little more happier. That's it.

This story originated in Kansas - places and names withheld to protect the innocent.

Anyone else heard this? Been trying to get into touch with UP's preservation group to ask them this, but being located in Cape Town proves a little difficult.

Remember - do not shoot or otherwise injure the messenger please...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

it's steam. but it runs with [former] UP4014 [SD70M]


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## BigEd (Oct 28, 2014)

That's also true. It doesn't sound like 4015 (new number?) does a lot of work...to me that is.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

BigEd said:


> As it says in the heading...? I know a guy who knows a guy that told him this story. The BB's steam is just for show and it's really driven internally by a diesel motor and thus AC or DC motors (not sure about all the terminology here as I only work in IT).
> 
> ...


I wonder why they have to fill its 25K gal tender with water every 100 miles. Wouldn't the environmentalists have a field day that the tender has spigots to drain all those gallons onto the tracks as the locomotive works to its next destination? And then, some poor schmuck has to fill it again, just to continue to drain treated water onto the tracks between there and the next stop? And repeat this two or three times a day? That sound reasonable?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The correct term is indeed Hogwash! The restoration has been well documented all along the way, this must be the same folks that swear that the US never landed men on the moon.  

Union Pacific Big Boy basics and frequently asked questions


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Yes, there is a diesel hidden in the boiler.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The Big Boy is steam powered. So is Thomas. Percy however is powered by an IC engine (either diesel or gasoline not sure).


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Lehigh74 said:


> The Big Boy is steam powered. So is Thomas. Percy however is powered by an IC engine (either diesel or gasoline not sure).


 There is more than one version of Thomas out there. At least two of them are nothing more than a steam generator with a colorful shell in it; the host railroad must provide the actual motive power. And yes, at least one is a genuine steam locomotive.

To suggest that the restored Big Boy is not is ridiculous. Hopefully, it is just a misunderstanding of the fact that there IS a diesel that travels with it at all times, to assist in pulling at times and to provide logistical support. 

As far as refilling a 25K gallon tender with water every 100 miles, that sounds about right to me. Steam locomotives don't recycle steam, they use it once (twice if a compound engine), then blow it out the stack. The Mikados on the Valley Railroad generally need to add water (6000K galloms) in the middle of a day's operations, having traveled about 25 -30 miles . A lot depends in the weather and operating conditions. Pulling on grades requires more steam, hence more water, than pulling in flat terrain, and the weight of the consist factors in as well. Plus they're pretty conservative about topping off: a steam loco running out of water is a really BAD thing.


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## Viperjim1 (Mar 19, 2015)

It’s always been my understanding the diesel is there for the power generator as steam cannot provide electricity to the cars following. I’m sure it assists at times but heard at spear it freewheels and just acts as the generator car.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

this is just more of the naysayers/haters from the ogr forum that do not believe that the big boy was restored.
rich melvin
and 
hotwater are the biggest haters

I rode behind the bigboy and you can tell it is using it's own power, steam power


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

The articles I've read say 4014 was converted to oil burning in the firebox during the rebuild, more specifically, diesel oil. They also talked about the diesel unit is there in a dual role of providing power to the cars the 4014 isn't set up to provide and as a backup engine in case the 4014 breaks down.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

whether the 4014 is converted to oil is [or diesel], a moot point, in the end it heats water to make steam to move it along ...and the diesel loco is there as insurance, and electricity generation for the passenger cars, not as a primary motive source


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Viperjim1 said:


> It’s always been my understanding the diesel is there for the power generator as steam cannot provide electricity to the cars following. I’m sure it assists at times but heard at spear it freewheels and just acts as the generator car.


Also, dynamic braking. They don't want to use the Big Boy's brakes more than absolutely necessary.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

There is nothing preventing the installation of a dynamo on a steam engine to provide electricity for its train. They just may jot have wanted to do it on the Big Boy for historical reasons.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

A diesel locomotive in the consist allows the 4014 to rack up a lot more miles on the rails in between shoppings. A boon for steam enthusiasts everywhere the train goes.

I used to dislike seeing a nanny diesel in the consist until I found out that fact.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

CTValleyRR said:


> There is nothing preventing the installation of a dynamo on a steam engine to provide electricity for its train. They just may jot have wanted to do it on the Big Boy for historical reasons.


AAMOF, there's certainly nothing to prevent the installation of a dynamo on a steam engine, even the 4014! Imagine that, it's already got one and it's operational!


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## RedJimmy1955 (Aug 23, 2021)

Next thing they will be saying is 4014 cannot travel far, otherwise it'll roll off the edge of this FLAT earth....RFLMAO!!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> AAMOF, there's certainly nothing to prevent the installation of a dynamo on a steam engine, even the 4014! Imagine that, it's already got one and it's operational!


Then they don't need a diesel locomotive to provide power for the consist, do they? So Viperjim's comment is definitely mistaken.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Locomotive dynamos typically provide enough power for lighting on the locomotives only. Sometimes a second dynamo is added in modern practice to provide additional power for radios or other such electronic devices. There were a few railroads historically that used large dynamos to power lights on short commuter trains, but it wasn't common.

Passenger cars these days have impressive appetites for power. They can be powered by onboard diesel generators, from a Head End Power generator equipped locomotive (Union Pacific's freight locomotives are not so equipped) or a power generator car. A typical locomotive dynamo would not have the power capacity to power lights, HVAC, kitchen appliances, etc in one passenger car, let alone 18-20 as typical of excursion trains. We have a pretty typical Pyle National dynamo on one of the locomotives I work on and it's rated for 500 watts at 32 volts. Pretty much just enough for the 250 watt headlight bulb and a few gauge lights in the cab. A private business car I work on has a built in 50 KW diesel generator on board. Even with every light in the car converted to LED bulbs, if you're running the HVAC system, you have to be careful with operating systems in the kitchen or you'll bring the generator to its knees. A slightly larger generator would solve this, but it shows you the demand a typical excursion/business car has for power.

In typical modern excursion use, freight diesel locomotives in the consist provide dynamic braking and aid in pulling the train as needed. The infrastructure to replenish water and fuel on a steam locomotive doesn't exist as it once did, so it's more important to stretch the capacity on board as much as possible to limit delays in service. It's not so much that they don't think the steam locomotive is capable of pulling the train or might break down, but because they need to extend the fuel/water range. Usually steam locomotives running main-line excursions have a control box in the cab to allow the steam locomotive engineer to control the diesel as needed.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Then they don't need a diesel locomotive to provide power for the consist, do they? So Viperjim's comment is definitely mistaken.


Most passenger cars of that era had their own belt-driven generators under their superstructures. The locomotive's dynamo powered lights: interior of the cab, inside gauges, on the pilot/smokebox, class lights, and tender lights.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

CTValleyRR said:


> Then they don't need a diesel locomotive to provide power for the consist, do they? So Viperjim's comment is definitely mistaken.


Jake had the answer, the power required for passenger cars, especially for modern excursions with A/C, require far more power than the locomotive dynamo could ever produce. The locomotive dynamo is really there simply for the locomotive and tender electrical requirements.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

IF you're running modern rolling stock, or upgraded rolling stock, that is true. But many historical / tourist trains have coaches whose only requirement is lighting and a PA system, which is well within the range that can be supplied by a steam locomotive. As far as belt-driven generators under the cars, I'm not familiar with any such. I work closely with several Northeastern tourist lines, and I can assure you that the only electricity on the train is provided by the (steam) locomotive.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Maybe you should check out a pretty well known NE tourist line, the Strasburg Railroad. A number of the coach cars have a generator.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Patent application dating 1934

US1988639A - Belt guard for railway generators or the like - Google Patents


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

i posted what ed dickens said in 2021








ed dickens responds to why there is a diesel behind the...


My opinion offered again here to help build understanding of our present day operations. I have been involved with this operation for over 17 years, and I can tell you that galavanting around the system without diesel assistance takes a heavy toll on people and machine. While quite popular with...




www.modeltrainforum.com


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

Saw 4014 here 3 summers ago. Don't know if I can find pictures or video, we took them both, up close and personal. I am blessed with a good memory, so here is my recollection of the consist:
4014 and it's normal tender
At least one auxiliary water tender
Diesel powered assistant locomotive, I assumed was for gentle assistance, protection power, and dynamic brakes.
A car, doors open, I could see inside, looked like machine tools and repair items.
Maybe another car for storing "stuff"
THEN- A different looking car, shaped similar to coaches, but different. Based on vents, lovers, exhaust stack (?), I think it was a generator car.
Then numerous beautifully kept passenger cars.

Thank you Union Pacific. It was beautiful.


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## miracleworker (Mar 23, 2021)

I could feel the radiant heat from the firebox when I was standing 50' away, train parked, on a 90 degree plus July day. When it started back up traveling, there was a gliding effect with almost no sound except for steam exhausts timed to the driver rotations. Anyone who has seem this monster in person knows there is NO internal combustion in 4014.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

CTValleyRR said:


> As far as belt-driven generators under the cars, I'm not familiar with any such.


Axle generators for charging battery banks were the norm for railcar electricity for quite a long period of time in the days before modern 480V head end power supplied by locomotives so equipped.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

https://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/attachments/media_kit/steam/844_support.pdf



The Howard Fogg still has a steam generator on board to provide steam if maintenance is required while locomotives No. 844 and No. 3985 are on the road. The car has been outfitted with an electric generator Page 2 Steam Locomotive Support Cars. (cont.) to provide electricity to the passenger cars.

if no Howard Fogg car then I would believe no generator


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

Those of us who have been to the roundhouse during the restoration can tell you it's absolute hogwash. But if someone chooses to believe that, you can probably sell them a deed to one of the floors on the Empire State building.


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## Farmboy856 (Dec 10, 2021)

This is utter BS. They did convert it to burn some sort of oil, and I believe it was what used to be called #5 bunker oil, not #2, which is diesel. 

As for the diesel in the consist, I saw an interview with the engineer who rides in it. Some *** asked him if the diesel didn’t really power the whole train. The engineer stated that this was hogwash, as when 4014 was high balling over straight level track on the prairie, that she reached speeds in excess of 75 mph, and that diesel he rides in is internally governed to a top speed of 68 mph. He stated that other than dynamic braking, he is just along for the ride.


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## sblanck71 (Dec 9, 2015)

Union Pacific has three coaches specifically for generating power to the other coaches. Power coaches are listed as 206,207 and 2066








Historical Equipment Still in Use






www.up.com


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

Farmboy856 said:


> This is utter BS. They did convert it to burn some sort of oil, and I believe it was what used to be called #5 bunker oil, not #2, which is diesel.
> 
> As for the diesel in the consist, I saw an interview with the engineer who rides in it. [cut] He stated that other than dynamic braking, he is just along for the ride.


I know on certain regions of track, steam locomotives are not allowed to run by themselves because of the braking issue (like in the mountains). The narrator mentioning this on a Daylight video didn't say whether it was a company or government policy.


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## sblanck71 (Dec 9, 2015)

I believe company policy. Locomotives other than Union pacific steam are on BNSF and they require a diesel in case of breakdown.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When 611 came up to Strasburg last year, they had a diesel in the consist. OTOH, when running on the gigantic Strasburg tracks, 611 was on her own.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

sblanck71 said:


> Union Pacific has three coaches specifically for generating power to the other coaches. Power coaches are listed as 206,207 and 2066
> 
> 
> 
> ...


maybe so 
but lately only the howard fogg (209) car has been used on 4014 excursions


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When 611 came up to Strasburg last year, they had a diesel in the consist. OTOH, when running on the gigantic Strasburg tracks, 611 was on her own.


because if there was a break down no revenue trains would be delayed and strasburg has the capability to move broken down steam engines.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So I'm going to try to start a new trend here: it's called admitting you're wrong.

Just got back from a well-deserved vacation. I took the opportunity to visit some of my favorite railroads and get under some (properly blue-flagged) equipment.

Turns out that the trains I thought were powered from a steam locomotive do, in fact, have small, gasoline powered generators under some of the coaches -- not dissimilar to the ones you would buy at a big box hardware store. Normally, they run with one online and one in standby. Again, remember that these are only powering lighting and a PA system, nothing that draws a lot of power.

It also turns out that the umbilical that I THOUGHT was supplying electricity from the loco is actually the opposite -- it's a backup so that the locomotive can draw power from the generator if necessary.

So I ended my vacation more knowledgeable than I started! Very cool.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Sounds like a simple but reliable system for their operating needs (not to mention easily serviceable with easy to obtain parts)


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I didn't take close notice of the generators in the Strasburg cars, but a number of them had at least enough power to provide lighting and air conditioning.


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