# Lionel 221 streamliner - under the hood



## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

As many of you may know, I recently picked up (via ebay) a Lionel 221 "Dreyfuss Hudson" streamliner steam loco with mated whistle tender, ca. 1946-47. The ebay seller had given both a nice black re-spray, and added some new green loco markers and some red tender tail lights.

I opened up the loco and gave her a good cleaning and lube. All good ... runs nice.

I've just added new "221" tags to the loco cab using Woodland Scenics #MG712 Roman Silver dry-transfer decals. Came out great, I think. A HUGE "thank you" to Cory / Tuner571 for the tip on these. Very close match to Lionel's original font style. Very easy to use, no "clear film margin" outside of the actual numbers. I'd highly recomment the WS product here. The MG712 sheet comes with 6 different font sizes. I used the 3/16" here.

Here's some pics, in case anybody down the road is ever wondering what these look like inside.

4-Position E-Unit (fwd-neutral-reverse-neutral)
Coil spring mounted brushes
Non-roller contact shoes

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Nice. I like the tender lights too


----------



## Tuner571

Looks great TJ, it looks brand new. I'm glad I was able to help.

Cory


----------



## tjcruiser

*Lionel 221 -- The Sequel ...*

I picked up my second Lionel 221 at the recent Amherst (West Springfield, MA) train show. This one is rusted and busted. I haggled with the dealer a bit, and after his solemn promise that "This train is gauranteed to work .. or NOT!", we settled on a purchase price of $35. A fair gamble, I thought!


Here's the beast, as found ... kind of mangy looking, I think ...











When I put her on the test track at home, there were no intial signs of life. That didn't surprise me too much, though. I pulled off the shell, and then fully removed the e-unit. (The wiring was badly cracked/corroded throughout, so I knew I was in for a full rewire job.)

With the e-unit removed, I could see that the power lead wire from the inside (top) of the pickup plate assembly to the e-unit had broken off at the pickup end. I've replaced power leads like this before, but usually by popping the fiber pickup plate out of the motor (with the wheels removed). Here, however, the wheels are solid and firmly mounted to their axles, so I didn't want to go that route.

Instead, I opted to "fish my way" through the back door. *Here's how I replaced the pickup power lead ...*

Here's the bottom of the loco. This type of motor has pickup shoes, rather than pickup rollers. They are removed in this photo, but I've shown where they clip on. There's also a metal Lionel nameplate that is tabbed into the black fiber pickup plate assembly with 4 metal tabs ...











Here, you can see the 4 metal tabs holding the nameplate, and the old glob of solder where the broken-off pickup lead wire used to be. I've bent the tabs upwards with a long, tiny screwdriver, and am about to pop the nameplate off ...











Here's the removed nameplate ...











That exposes a pair of rivet holes which hold the copper pickup spring-plate to the inside (top) of the black fiber pickup plate. The rear hole (to the right) had old solder for the old power lead, but below I've cleaned that solder away and ensured that the rivet hole is open/clear ...











To rewire, I used repro cloth-covered, single-strand 22-gauge wire (available from Jeff Kane). I remove insulation from about 3/16" of one end of the wire, and then bend that exposed wire 90-degrees into an "L" shape. Then comes the fishing expedition ... carefully fish the wire over the rear axle and under the rear cross-bar and poke the uninsuslated wire end out through the rear rivet hole ...











Once the wire has been fished through, bend it's end over to "crimp" it in place ...











Then, solder that on, with easy access from the underside of the motor. After soldering, I use a Dremel to grind down the solder bead reasonably flush (more or less) with the black fiber plate. This ensure that the Lionel nameplate will be positioned flush.











With the new power lead attached, I show here how I can bench-test the motor with some jumper leads. The e-unit has been removed, for now ... that's a project for later. Current flows through the brush cans and armature (orientation to be toggled via e-unit for loco direction flip-flop), and then downstream through the field coil, and then to the field coil metal plates, which are grounded to the motor frame and outer wheels...











And ... SUCCESS!!! ... this old motor spins once again like a champ!

Regards,

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

It'll be humming down the tracks with a new paint job in no time.


----------



## tjcruiser

I've rewired the 221 motor.

The e-unit took some finessing. The tiny inner wire lead to the solenoid coil had been broken off close to the coil. There was just enough "tail" for me to solder on an extension, though it's just a solder-held joint, with no wire twists. I wrapped the joint in heat shrink, and put a dap of hot glue over it to restrict any damaging bumps.

The mechanics of the motor includes several stepped reduction gears. One thing that's interesting is the inertial effect on the motor when power is turned off ... the motor keeps charging down the track for a ways, dissipating all of that inertial energy. Brute force power, I call it! Yeehaa!!!

TJ


----------



## BigAl56

Nice restoration job. This has been Like watching that cable show _American Restoration_


----------



## seabilliau

I'm looking forward to the body work segment... After a word from our sponsors.


----------



## tjcruiser

areizman said:


> Nice restoration job. This has been Like watching that cable show _American Restoration_


Thanks, guys.

I love that show, but I'm always amazed how the guy comes up with his cost estimates in about 8 seconds ... "Ahhh ... breakdown, 4 hours of body work, fabricate a few parts, 6 hours of custom paint ... yeah ... we're lookin' at around $6500."  I'm not questioning his price ... I just have no idea how he can calculate all that's involved so fast!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

It's a television show TJ, things happen quickly!


----------



## Big Ed

Nice....neat....work.:thumbsup:

Gears look kind of dry?


----------



## eljefe

areizman said:


> Nice restoration job. This has been Like watching that cable show _American Restoration_


I hope TJ is a lot better looking than the guys on that show...


----------



## tjcruiser

big ed said:


> Gears look kind of dry?


Old Hawk Eye Ed strikes again. Spot on. The motor's gonna sit idle for a few months until I tackle the shell redo (springtime painting), so I haven't lubed the motor yet. I should though, I guess, just to prevent any oxidation. OK, Ed ... you got me. 



eljefe said:


> I hope TJ is a lot better looking than the guys on that show...


I think I'd need a few train tattoos on my arms, in order to compete!

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Lionel 221T Tender graphics / decals*

OK, guys ... did I make the right decision???

I ordered a bunch of stuff from Jeff Kane the other day, and added some "New York Central" decals for my eventual redo of my latest Lionel 221T tender to the order list.

Here's what the tender _should_ look like when restored ...










QUESTION ...

When I ordered the decals from Jeff, I had a choice of water-transfer decals for the tender side, or peel-n-stick decals. I figured (naively) that the water transfer decals would yield a cleaner, more professional look. However ...

Each side (text, stripes) is one full decal. Very large. I have ZERO experience with water-transfer decals. I do recall reading, however, that it's difficult to work with large decals.

Have I shot myself in the foot with ordering the water-transfer decals (as opposed to the peel-n-stick ones) here? Is there a high chance that the decal might tear during install?

Any basic tips on how to apply a large water-transfer decal ???

The restorarion work is still some months down the road, but I'm startin' to feel itchy about this decision ...

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

Send them back and get the others?

Save them and get the others?


----------



## seabilliau

Maybe double the order? I agree that water would look more professional. Maybe you could order two set sof the decals in case one rips AND order their cheapest set of large decals to practice on something. I don't know how much they are but I can't imagine decals are too expensive. Am I wrong?


----------



## seabilliau

Ps. That loco looks awesome!


----------



## tjcruiser

seabilliau said:


> Maybe double the order? I agree that water would look more professional. Maybe you could order two set sof the decals in case one rips AND order their cheapest set of large decals to practice on something. I don't know how much they are but I can't imagine decals are too expensive. Am I wrong?


$5 for the left/right pair of decals (from Jeff Kane).

TJ


----------



## T-Man

Place the decal on by width not length. Then the top and corners are straight. Then slide.
Try not to pull it apart after it is on and you try to remove the water.
Someone suggested a coat of dullcote when finished. In another thread.


WIth your mass production/disease go half a dozen each.


----------



## tjcruiser

*221 Strip Tease*

As springtime begins to whisper its song in our ears, I'm itchin' to do some paint work. Still a bit cold, but plenty of prep work to keep me busy.

The 221 frolicked in an Easy Off bath, and a wire brushdown. Still more crevice work to do, along with all of the inside of the shell. Getting there, though ...

TJ


----------



## rogruth

The 1946 221s were grey.
The 1947 models were black.
There were not any marker jewels on the tender.
None of this is important.You do what you like if you do not want an exact restoration.
M ost important,have FUN with your trains.


----------



## Big Ed

Wow I think it looks good like that, looks like chrome.:thumbsup:


----------



## T-Man

Looking Good! :thumbsup:


----------



## Big Ed

One for the TIN MAN or EPOXY MAN?

This has been holding at $21 bucks.
Does need work.
1 day to go.

*mr224* on e bay.


----------



## lears2005

wow Thats a good deal


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

A day is an eternity in the eBay world. Much of the bidding is in the last few minutes.


----------



## tjcruiser

rogruth said:


> The 1946 221s were grey.
> The 1947 models were black.
> There were not any marker jewels on the tender.
> None of this is important.You do what you like if you do not want an exact restoration.
> M ost important,have FUN with your trains.


There are two 221's being discussed in this thread. The first one is one that I bought on ebay, "restored" by someone else with the extra jewel markers on the boiler and the taillights on the tender. I believe this 221 was originally gray, hence 1946.

The second 221 is my latest acquisition. It was originally black, hence 1947. I have not yet decided on a restoration "look". Likely flat black, but I'm not sure whether I'll add the extra markers.

I've done several restoration projects, and on many, I tend to add a "personal touch" that deviates from the original. For example, on my many 1681 loco restorations, I add a gold pinstripe around the perimeter of the inset panel on the steamchest. Sure, that's not purist. But that's not necessarily what I'm going for. I think a personal touch adds a new thread of fabric to the history / legacy of the train.

Ed -- nice ebay set ... I am looking for some little passenger cars. Marked in my "watch" list. Thanks.

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... how did you get the ebay link to work?


----------



## tjcruiser

Link was to the seller's info page.

Here's the ebay item # ... 140716493703

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Thanks, just curious what you guys were looking at. Restoration will certainly be required, especially the wheels!


----------



## Lehigh Valley Lines

tjcruiser said:


> I've done several restoration projects, and on many, I tend to add a "personal touch" that deviates from the original. For example, on my many 1681 loco restorations, I add a gold pinstripe around the perimeter of the inset panel on the steamchest. Sure, that's not purist. But that's not necessarily what I'm going for. I think a personal touch adds a new thread of fabric to the history / legacy of the train.


I've seen most of your restorations and they all come out great! I like that you personalize them a little. Once restored it does not matter if they are "original" in the purist view because they have been altered, well at least in my opinion. I agree with what you say about the next thread of fabric to the history for that loco. 

My wish list includes a 221 and since I've seen your restoration of your 1668 and 1681's I'm adding each one of those too. 

I'm learning a lot from your posts and others on this forum is keep up the great work. Thanks!

ScottG


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks for the very kind words, Scott ... much appreciated.

I'll reiterate that when I bought my first already-restored 221 (the initial headliner of this thread), I lacked any confidence to try to tackle my own restorations. However, as I spent some more time poking under the hood of my locos, I began to learn how they pieced together ... the shells, the motors, etc. And, with a little courage in my belly, I made an attempt to tackle my first 1681. Turned out quite nicely, I'll say. With each project, I try to break down the overall project into a stepwise series of small, manageable tasks. The guys here on the forum have help me immensly with the technical know-how, and I've been thrilled with the parts source and help I've received from Jeff Kane at the Train Tender.

So ... Go To It, I say! Plenty of guys here (myself certainly included) who will happily coach you along, as needed.

Thanks again,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Primo Primer ...*

We had a warm day here in RI yesterday, and I happily threw open the garage doors and did a little outside priming work ... Krylon grey primer on the 221 loco shell and tender parts.

I opted to leave the crosshead intact (rivetted) to the shell, and taped it off during paintwork. All of the other trim has been removed.

The wheel trucks are the tender were attached with crimp washers (rather than a rivet), so it was easy to remove those for paintwork.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for some nice/warm weather next week ... flat black is next.

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

It looks more like a blue primer?


----------



## tjcruiser

No ... grey grey. I think the concrete floor paint has some blueish grey that's changing how things are perceived.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That's a good color for it.


----------



## tjcruiser

*A Black Tie Affair ...*

I've made some more progress on the 221 shell redo. Krylon Flat Black paint on top of Krylon Grey Primer. Reinstalled the now-polished trim, and added Woodland Scenics dry-transfer "221" number tags (#MG712) to the cab. New repro headlamp lens.

I'll need to tackle adding the "New York Central" wet-transfer decals to the tender shell, next. QUESTION -- What type of liquid should I use for the transfer ... warm water? How hot???

Regards,

TJ


----------



## rogruth

Nice job.
I have a 1946 gray 221 but have not decided how I want to do it.I have the light blue and silver passenger cars and may paint it to match the cars.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I believe you want to use warm water, not hot, but I'm not a decal expert. You might want some setting solution to make it lay flat as well.


----------



## tjcruiser

Ro -- Thanks. So far, so good. I'm nervous about the tender decals, though ... no decal experience on my end.

John -- OK ... warm water. "Setting solution"? I saw this was mentioned in another thread somewhere, but it went over my head. Any mfr / brand come to mind?

Thanks, guys!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I bought it from Microscale, it's called Micro Sol. They also have something called Micro Set, not sure what the difference is, they have similar descriptions. One thing is the Micro Set says it's a decal remover. I got each of them since I didn't know which one would work best. I did a test run with the Micro Sol, it laid the decal nice and flat across rivets.


----------



## Lehigh Valley Lines

TJ, looks great so far!

How did you clean the side rods, they did look pretty mangy in your before pic?


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, John ... I'll stop by my LHS with that info and see what they say about the Micro Sol.

Lehigh, I cleaned up the siderods with a Dremel stainless brush, and then a buff on the accessible flat portions with my magic burnishing wheel. See here ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=97413&postcount=94

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

*Black Tie & Pinstripes ...*

I had massive beads of sweat rolling down my forehead today. First time I've fiddled with decals in 35 years ... I was in a panic about screwing up the "New York Central" decals on the tender shell. Fortunately, I watched a few good YouTube "how to" videos that explained the process pretty clearly. Warm water ... soft brush ... flat surface ... etc. I was able to apply the decals with reasonable results.










With that "Whew!" moment behind me, I proceded to reassemble the 221 loco. I had previously de-rusted eek and polished all of the drive rod and valve gear bits, and today I cleaned up the front and rear trucks a bit. I also added a thinned coat of flat black paint to the "spoked" area of the drive wheels. Reassembly went smoothly ... pieces fit nicely. I'm really happy with the way this 221 turned out, especially after finding it as a "junker" at a recent train show.












I know it's not original to the loco, but I do like the look of the green "jewel" marker lights on my other 221 loco. I think I'll add them to this 221, too. I hope to tackle reassembly of the tender next week.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## rogruth

Very nice TJ.


----------



## Big Ed

Looks great, Tin Man.:thumbsup:

Where do the the jewel lights go?
Do you have to buy and add? Or do they just stick on somewhere?
I can't see where they would be.

Is that Lionel stamped on the front? 
I guess I have not looked at the 221 close before.

The decals look good on the side :thumbsup:, hows the other side look?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That set looks outstanding! I'll bet it's going to look better than it did when it was new! Very nice paint job on those pieces!


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks for the nice comments, guys. Very much appreciated!!!

The flat black paint is rather forgiving while spraying ... much easier to apply than would be a gloss.

Ed, if you look at the beginning of this thread, you'll see my other 221 ... the one that I bought already restored. On there, the former owner added some simple craft-store stick-on green "jewels" to the round "bump outs" just below the forward-most handrail stanchion. Non original, but I think they look quite nice ... the dark green "jewel" jumps out nicely against the flat black. I know Michaels sells stick-on jewels ... I bought some red ones some months back. I don't know if they have green ones, but I'm going to stop in at their store and see.

The "Lionel" on the cowcatcher is a raised detail that's molded directly into the shell. It has an ellipse around it, too. There's also a smal "built by Lionel" plate cast into the shell on the right side of the loco.

The decal on the other side looks pretty much the same. When I was reading and watching YouTube "how to decal" tips, most said that it's best to apply decals to a gloss finish. And here I am working with a flat finish ... one with "microbumps" that tend to fight the decal laying flat. I was a bit nervous about it, but in the end, the decal laid down nicely ... no significant wrinkles, bubbles, etc. The "film" on the decal does have a more glossy sheen than the rest of the painted flat shell, but it looks OK as it's all concentrated within the silver pinstripes.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## eljefe

tjcruiser said:


> The decal on the other side looks pretty much the same. When I was reading and watching YouTube "how to decal" tips, most said that it's best to apply decals to a gloss finish. And here I am working with a flat finish ... one with "microbumps" that tend to fight the decal laying flat. I was a bit nervous about it, but in the end, the decal laid down nicely ... no significant wrinkles, bubbles, etc. The "film" on the decal does have a more glossy sheen than the rest of the painted flat shell, but it looks OK as it's all concentrated within the silver pinstripes.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ


When I used to build model ships and planes, most of the paints were flat. I'd overspray with a clear gloss to get better adhesion of the decals, then overspray with a clear dull coat to get the final look. The final coat also helps provide protection for the decals making it less likely they'll flake off. Some 20 years later, the decals are still holding up pretty well.


----------



## Lehigh Valley Lines

TJ, 
It came out awesome! You did a great job with the decals. It looks brand new, you do amazing work. 

Thanks for the tip about the siderods and the link about the burnishing wheel.

Now that I see it finished black I am torn on which one I will get when I do check it off my "want" list. I originally wanted the Gray but now after seeing both of yours..... 

Again great job and thanks for posting. 

ScottG


----------



## tjcruiser

Elj -- all of the "how to" videos I watched mentioned that same tip about gloss spray prior to decal, and dull coat afterwards. Seems like the logical approach. That said, I was reluctant to alter the sheen on the surrounding paint on my tender at all, so I went ahead with the decal on "virgin" paint. I guess I could have gloss/dulled just the decal region via tape-off, but I treat my trains pretty gently ... I'm hoping the decal will last OK as is. Live and learn, I guess.

Scott -- many thanks. It was my first 221 Dreyfuss loco that "got me" into this whole old-train thing. It really is a classic streamliner / art-deco design ...way cool. Looking forward to seeing your venture!

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

OK. Stick on markers.

I went back and looked, maybe red for this one?


----------



## tjcruiser

*An "Escort Service" Date ...*

Our 221 is not going solo to this party ... he's got an "escort service" date in tow. Hubba, hubaa! Should be a _fun_ evening ...

TJ


*BEFORE --*










*AFTER --*


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Did you buy new rods or clean up the old ones?


----------



## rogruth

John,

I think he covered that earlier.


----------



## tjcruiser

All parts on the loco/tender are original, with the exception of the headlamp lens, small sand dome on top of the boiler, and the decals. I cleaned up the drive rods, etc. per the description and link in Post #43.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Big Ed

As normal.....great job.:thumbsup:

Red markers for this one?


----------



## tjcruiser

Thanks, Ed!

I stopped in at Michaels Craft Store over the weekend. They have a small bag of perfect-size green stick-on jewels ... but they didn't have any in stock. Green for me ... but I have to wait for a restock!

TJ


----------



## Srook

TJ,

How did you attach the new headlight lens? I had to break the old one out of mine for stripping and will be repainting it this weekend. Did you use a glue or did the replacement fit snug enough to hold it in place?

Thanks
Scott


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I picked up the jewels for PW locomotives on eBay some time ago. They were pretty cheap, and they were mailed in an envelope taped to a piece of cardboard.


----------



## tjcruiser

Scott,

My replacement lens was from Jeff Kane. If I recall, I had to ever-so-slightly enlarge the hole in the metal shell casting for the stem to fit snuggly. After priming and painting the shell, I pushed the lens in (with some friction), and then simply added a drop of ZAP glue to the mating surfaces from the inside of the shell.

Is this the "best" method? I have no idea. But it's worked out OK for me.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

John,

You're reminding me that I did want to add some jewel markers to this loco. I had completely forgotten about that. Thanks for watching my back!

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Where do the markers fit?


----------



## tjcruiser

There's two 221's in this thread, John. 1st I bought redone from ebay, and 2nd a full strip/redo by me. If you look at the pics of the 1st 221 in Post #1, you can see how that seller added green jewels to the "bump ups" near the first handrail stanchions. Not Lionel original, of course, but a nice touch, I always thought. So, game plan is to do that on "my" 2nd 221, too.

(I have forgotten until you reminded me earlier today!)

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Gosh TJ, why not add real lights and not just jewels?  It would be pretty easy to wire some LED's to track power and have real markers.


----------



## tjcruiser

As I'm sitting here poking around other threads, I just KNEW that someone was gonna mention the real-light / LED thing. It's a great idea, and one that would be easy to do, of course. That said, this loco is 99% a display model ... for now, at least. I haven't yet jumped onboard the LED bandwagon, but after watching you, T-Man, and so many others have so much fun with them, maybe this is a good/simple starting point.

Hmmm ...

TJ


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Piece of cake, and at some point I'm sure it'll be on the rails. It'll look a lot cooler with LED markers. 

You could find some of the markers that project out and really make them stand out. Or, you could just use a 3mm LED and poke it a bit through the hole. 

Probably a buck or two for parts, and a little time to drill the holes and wire them up.


----------



## T-Man

The B&M caboose was a prelude to using LEDs as marker lights.I plan on using the same idea for the 1688 shell.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

T-Man, what did you use to hold the LED's? Hard to see in that light.


----------



## stevetil

rogruth said:


> Nice job. I have a 1946 gray 221 but have not decided how I want to do it.
> I have the light blue and silver passenger cars and may paint it to match the cars.


Oh Boy! I have one too, the 1946 grey one.
Same thing I got in 1946 at Christmas.
Including the blue and silver passenger cars.

It made me love trains, though I gave it away.
But I bought another one recently.
And now I am enthusiastic about restoring it.

I am actually thinking about not really a restoration,
but also a modernization.
Like replacing the e-unit with an ERR TMCC unit.
And instead of the green and red marker jewels,
why not tiny green and red LEDs? and a backup light...

Also, the tender doesn't have a whistle, and my
old one didn't either, but maybe it should have?
ERR also has a sound module, should fit in.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You can "modernize" that old 221 with the ERR AC Commander and the ERR RailSounds Commander. It may be a tight fit to put both in the tender, together they're close to five inches in length, and you have to find a place for the speaker.

You'll need a 6 pin tether between the locomotive and the tender as well for full control. For the "full Monty", see if you can stick a smoke unit in there.


----------



## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> You can "modernize" that old 221 with the ERR AC Commander and the ERR RailSounds Commander. It may be a tight fit to put both in the tender, together they're close to five inches in length, and you have to find a place for the speaker.
> 
> You'll need a 6 pin tether between the locomotive and the tender as well for full control. For the "full Monty", see if you can stick a smoke unit in there.
> 
> Here's a thread on restoring a 221, might give you some ideas.
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3483




Welcome to the site, do a build thread when you do it.
John did you notice that the thread you linked is this thread?

WHERE IS TJ?
Last time he logged on was 7/30???


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I know that TJ is MIA, nothing I can do about it. 

After the fact I did notice that, but I figured to ignore it.


----------



## njrailer93

Ii want one!!! time to check ebay


----------



## stevetil

gunrunnerjohn said:


> ... It may be a tight fit to put both in the tender, together they're close to five inches
> in length, and you have to find a place for the speaker...


OH! I thought that the AC Commander would fit in where the e-unit was
in the engine so that the Railsounds could go in the tender with the speaker.

I'm pretty sure that my 221 already has a smoke unit, I'll have to look again.
I thought that the one I had as a boy had one too, but maybe not.
I definitely want it to smoke, although puffing is probably out of the question.

Steve.

[edit] It actually looks like one plugs into the other. I have not seen one.
Looks like maybe the Railsounds sits on top of the AC Commander. [/edit]


----------



## tjcruiser

I'm still kickin', guys ... though life has pulled me in various other directions, lately. At some point, my roller coaster will slow back down a bit, and I'll be able to poke back into the train game.

Per the comments above, the 221 did not originally have a smoke unit. It'd be a nice retrofit, though, along with the other techno ideas, above. Enjoy!

TJ


----------



## rogruth

I agree.The 221s did not have smoke.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

It'll be a tight fit, if it's possible, to put the AC Commander in the locomotive. Remember, you also have to deal with the antenna for the TMCC, it's easier to float the tender shell in many cases. Of course, I'm not entirely sure how the 221 tender goes together, so that may be a trick as well.


----------



## rogruth

Tender uses bend over tabs.
It is all metal.


----------



## servoguy

When you open a tender with the bend over tabs, straighten all the tabs, and then, when you reassemble the tender, don't bend any of the tabs over. Twist two of them slightly and that will hold the tender together. Use two that are diagonally opposite. If you bend them over, you only get 2 or 3 cycles and the tabs will fall off. They you will be talking to yourself and there may be bad words uttered.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The command installation will be problematic in the tender, as you need to be able to isolate the tender shell as the antenna for the TMCC. Of course, you have the same issue with the locomotive. When the TMCC receiver is located in the locomotive for command installations, the normal antenna is isolated handrails. I don't know how much trouble it would be to isolate the handrails on the 221, or if the AC Commander would fit in there.

I'm sure it can be done, but it'll be more difficult than some installations.


----------



## Prarie242

*Lionel postwar 221 under the hood*

Thanks for the posts of these pictures. Ive been putting a 221 together and could not figure out how to mount the rear truck and was starting to suspect that i had the wrong motor. Sure enough. These pics confirmed that.

Anybody have a spare 221 motor that they want to part with or know a source that might have one?

Thanks.


----------



## tjcruiser

The 221 motor is near-identical to the 1668 motor, with one exception. The drive-crank studs on the 221 middle wheels are longer, as needed for the drive rods components. Be mindful of that, as you're in the hunt.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## Prarie242

Yes, thanks for that. That explains why the bolts on the center wheel lock up the drive rods. Its not the bolts that are too short, my center wheels don't have the longer crank studs. They are short on the 1666/1668 motor. 

One other big difference is that the 221 motor has the mounts for both front and rear trucks on the motor assembly. The 1666/1668 motor has truck mounts on one end only.


----------



## tjcruiser

Ahh ... good call on the truck mount difference. Confirmed via a quick inspection of the locos on my end.

It looks like the extra truck mount plate attaches to the motor sideplates via tab-and-slot arrangement. Perhaps one could add a plate to a motor, if needed.

TJ


----------



## Prarie242

Ah. Ok. Thanks. I may have found a 221 motor so hopefully i wont have to resort to modifying what ive got. Hope so.


----------

