# lionel 4-4-2 engine wont move



## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

hi guys, got a 69-70 8304 has the modern rollers. I got this cheap and I took it all apart, neglected bad, removed dirt grime, hair, cleaned it all up cleaned brushes and surfaces of motor. lubed it all up, painted the chassis, looks like new. factory fresh. engine has the red glow lights, I think this was the millwalkee engine. 

Problem: engine will not go hardly forward, even at high throttle, a little in reverse. stops. what is this? E unit in the rear? Damn. I lubed this thing and it rolls so good, it almost would not need any juice to run it. 

any help? what parts do I need? 

thanks 
Chris


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Let's rule out your track / power to loco. Everything there clean, no shorts, etc.? Have you tried running the loco with jumper leads directly to the pickup rollers and the wheels or motor frame?

You said you cleaned the brushes. Did you clean the commutator (armature face), too, including removing any gunk in the grooves between the 3 copper segments?

Not much extra help, but Lionel manual ...

http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/70-8304-250.pdf

TJ


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

yeah its all clean makes humming sound, wants to move but nothing. it lights and smokes, almost burned up the smoke unit because it was not pushing it out from me trying to hold the engine off the tracks to see if it would go. 

nothing. is it the coiled thing in the rear?? who has experience in these engines not moving??? 

thanks 
Chris


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You need to find the engine in the Lionel 1-9 supplement. Be prepared to see the biggest index you have ever seen. That will describe the engine and reference a page so you will know the parts. Only a few variations of a motor exist and they are in detail at the rear of the supplement with a diagram. To understand what you have you will need both.

It is a sound of steam engine so the smoke unit has the contacts to operate it.


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

do you think its the motor itself? or the E-unit. it wants to budge a little in reverse with near 20 volts. and 20 volts forward and you get a tiny movement in the engine. 

I don't want to spend a ton. ill be looking for parts cheap to rule things out. 

thanks
Chris


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That sounds like the motor if juice is getting through the E-Unit, but that's not a certainty.

Have you tried running it with some test leads to a transformer with the wheels suspended so there is no load? You can also run it without the shell to access internal components.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I would remove all of the drive rods components, and then test the loco. It may be that something there is out of alignment or "out of quarter", and binding with excess friction. Remove all that from the puzzle, and see if the loco operates better.

Ditto to John' comment on removing the shell, too.

Best path here is to eliminate options in the debugging process.

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The obvious was to remove the smoke unit.

I was getting at a two position switch. I am not sure if they can fail but if they are connected and both fields are good it should run either way. If there is no mechanical jam then I suspect a bad pole on the armature.


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## TrainLarry (Jan 15, 2012)

Chris,
I presume you lubed both ends of the armature, and that it turns freely.
First isolate the motor from the reverse unit and tender. Disconnect both motor field wires from the reverse unit, and the wire that goes to the motor brushes from the tender. You should have 3 separate wires. Connect the wire to the one armature brush to one transformer lead, and one of the 2 motor field wires to the other transformer lead. The motor should run in one direction. Disconnect the one field lead, and switch to the other field lead, and the motor should reverse direction. This must work before you do anything else. If this works, connect both leads back to the reverse unit and try again. If this does not work, the reverse unit may have a bad ground. When you get the loco to work this way, connect the remaining lead to the tender, and try again. If it does not work, the problem is in the tender connection.
Go to Lionel, and download supplement 1-9. Your loco is listed on pages 3-15 and 3-16.

Larry


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here you go.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I will caution everyone not to try to make an engine run by putting a high voltage into it. You can smoke the motor or the E unit or both doing that. If it doesn't run, find out why. Locos should run with 10 volts or less. The wheels should turn freely. If the engine was abused, it may be that the armature bearings are worn enough to allow the armature to contact the field, in which case the engine will not run.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You didn't mentioned if it ran before you took it apart?

If it did you put something back on wrong.

Brushes put back in right?
And like TJ said, the rods on right?

When you had it apart did you inspect the wires for chafing?

Did you do anything to the e unit? (clean? OIL?)


Edit,
What did you paint exactly? The motor chassis?


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

I did not touch the E unit. it was not running when I got it. so I figure clean it all up lube it and and its good. maybe the armiture is gone. I have a few of these engines, I am going to swap out one from a 8142 I have to see if that is the issue. 

Thanks for the parts lists JOhn!!!!! much appreciated! 

Chris


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## Big Mike (Dec 2, 2011)

servoguy said:


> I will caution everyone not to try to make an engine run by putting a high voltage into it. You can smoke the motor or the E unit or both doing that. If it doesn't run, find out why. Locos should run with 10 volts or less. The wheels should turn freely. If the engine was abused, it may be that the armature bearings are worn enough to allow the armature to contact the field, in which case the engine will not run.


see that is what I was thinking,the armature bearings have too much slack,causing it to stick to field when power is added,we see this all the time on automotive starter motors and hydro-electrical pump motors....mike


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have repaired a couple of locos that were run without lube long enough to wear out the armature bearings. I made a bushing and installed it in the old bearing to tighten things up a bit.


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

ooooooooooohhhh so the plastic pieces where the wires connect with the brushes, the holders for the metal shaft of the motor? too worn and cause the motor to pull toward the magnetic pieces? causing it to stick? hmmm. I can take a look at that. never thought of that. thought electrical issues 

thanks 
Chris 

ill pull it apart and take more pics


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