# Homasote only ?



## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

I am nearing building a small HO L shelf about 8'x 5', switching layout. With enough frame cross-members and only 1' to 1.5' deep anywhere, can I get away with sub-roadbed being Homasote only, instead of having the usual ply under it ? 
The rearmost area will hopefully be a cookie-cut, 5" raised x 3.5" wide at right end, sub-RB (Not to be confused with Arby's subs) which will turn 90deg. at corner, run about 5'-6' and descend 2.5" to midway-down for a switchback tail and its switch, to descend into main ops scene in frontal portions..I'll have lumberyard cut the rectangles. Then I'll do the cookie-cuts outdoors (as I hear it's really messy)...
As angle brackets will not offer enough x-members I'll probably build an open grid of 1"x3"s anchored to the wall and have legs from front edge angled down to molding at floor...Any thoughts neg. or pos. are welcome... M


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hemasote only will sag if it's not well supported. I'd consider at least 1/4" plywood as a "helper". Doing cookie-cutter track segments will exacerbate any tendency to sag if not well supported.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Homasote by itself will not prove to be satisfactory. It is basically nothing but tightly compressed paper mulch. As GRJ said above, you will want at least 1/4" plywood under it.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Oddly enough I might actually like some warping as 1:1 scale track lifts and dips, never perfectly flat and level ..Same, of course, with streets. But I will consider the 1/4" under-ply, as advised..Thanks...M


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Prototypical railroad track does rise and dip but across distances not possible to model unless you had a huge layout. If your tracks followed sags in Homasote you’d have something akin to a rollercoaster. 
Yes, you definitely want a solid base for your layout.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You haven't seen some of the tracks near my house.


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

I built an O gauge layout in the 90s with only Homasote. This was before internet forums and I was unaware of the recommendation to put plywood under Homasote. I put it directly on the bench work (a few screws), and it worked perfectly. No warping or problems over a decade and the room was subject to temperature extremes. Cant remember the centers on structural supports, but probably 24". I think I used 1/2 or 5/8 homasote, and the thickness is probably a big factor.


Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You were lucky Bill, I've seen it look like a washboard!


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

It WILL warp, and warp badly!


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

BTW, one can seal the Homa with a urethane spray can before employing it..Edges too..I'm sure this would highly prevent dampness getting in it..Also I hear it holds spikes well. Making drainage and other ditches should be a cinch, too. My last layout was all plywood, open grid.. I bent so so many spikes in it. A real drag that was....


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

I'd suggest a sandwich of Homasote and plywood or osb. You can 1-inch drywall screws to firmly attach them together.

Here is such a sandwich on my last layout upper deck.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2019)

I am looking for an alternative to Homasote myself. I used it on a layout years ago and wasn't very thrilled with it. You can put down Woodland Scenics foam road bed or Flexxbed sheets. Both will raise your costs. I will be looking into other material and if I find anything suitable I will post it.

Regards,

Gary.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Well, I've used it on my last two layouts and other than getting it nice and level, I like it because it hold track nails and spikes. I do not want to use adhesives to hold my track down. No thanks.

That said, I only use it on broad flat areas such as yards. This (below is all laid on Homasote after I painted it.

Main yard.










Staging:


















I can see why layout builders have used it for years and years.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2019)

Nice trackage Riogrande. I didn't know what you meant by gluing track down until I took a closer look and noticed no sub road bed. Personally I don't know why anyone would want to glue track down when using cork or Flexxbed that is what is glued down. As for Homasote I found it quite noisy even with the layout supports on carpet. For me there has to be a better product especially for sound deadening. I know of a few that we have used to soundproof offices. If I can find something like that at a decent price I will go that way. It's always good to have options.

Regards,

Gary.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

So when I use Homasote, it's for large flat area's like yards. I've read about people doing that since I was a teen in the 70's. Yards don't have track on raised grade like mainline so no cork is needed. At least yards I've looked at. The track is basically on flat ground.










In the case of plywood or OSB, I put down cork first for the profile and then track; both are nailed down.

It seems very popular these days for hobbyists to glue their track down; usually in those cases they are using Styrofoam sub road bed, which won't hold nails or spkes. Thats what I mean by gluing track down (caulk etc.).

As for why anyone would glue track down when using cork, I don't know either, but I see it routinely by folks discussing their methods on forums.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Many of us find gluing track down to be more precise and less fiddly than spikes / nails. That'ss true regardless of the type of roadbed you chose.

Not that either method is clearly superior; it's largely a matter of personal preference.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Thirty years ago I never heard of anyone glueing track down either to cork or right on the sub-roadbed.

When did this become popular? When people stopped being taught how to use a hammer and a punch? Or when foam started being used instead of wood for sub-roadbed? I guess that was because no one was taught anymore to use a saw, square, and a straightedge. 

As you said, there is no right or wrong way, but I'm interested in knowing when this shift away from traditional benchwork and trackwork started.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Personal preference is right. 

I do not find track nails and ME spike to be fiddly at all, rather they allow me to lay track with precision on the center-line that I draw carefully. The track is down *now*, not later when the adhesive sets up. I can tweak it a tiny bit while siting down the rail if need to get smooth flowing track.

Also what I like about track nails/spike is if anything need revision, it's a simple matter to pull them out with needle nose pliers and relay. No set-up adhesive to deal with. I"ve saved turnouts from 3 past layouts and they were in pristine condition when I sold them since there was not glue or adhesives on them. I didn't get far enough along to ballast the track on those layouts and am heck, glad I didn't use adhesives as it gave me the option to sell or reuse nice and clean.


Michael. I've been reading about gluing track down with adhesives such as caulk for the past 15-20 years on forums. It seems to be all the rage so I am not sure how you couldn't be aware of it! Many think it's the best thing since sliced bread and copy what others are doing like lemmings. Different strokes.

I'd guess the shift away began when foam became widespread and available enough for hobbyists to start trying out. Being light weight, it has some advantages if you want a portable modular layout that needs to be moved a lot.

I'm old school like you and don't see what all the fuss is about. I don't want to wait for adhesives to set. It has to be held in place while setting and what if it slips one way or the other while setting - you could remove the weights to find the track is crooked and wonky, but now it's fixed in place. Adhesives can obscure the center line that is my reference for precise track laying and once the adhesive is set the track is fixed in place and can't be adjusted without peeling it back up. I'd worry about damaging fragile turnouts freeing them from the adhesive and they ain't cheap.

I've never been a big fan of adhesives all my life, let alone for track laying and see them as a necessary evil. You ether get too little or too much, it gets where you you don't want it and have to wipe it up, on your fingers and cloths. Some take to long to set, others too fast. Bleh. I do use adhesives of course, but only for what I must and have no alternative.

People use foam for terrain and landscaping as well. There are two ways of course to make terrain. One is to build something in the shape of the terrain - an additive approach, such as cardboard strips and hot glue, or wire mesh with plaster over it. The other is subtractive method, where you put down layers of foam and carve away what isn't the hill or terrain and then put something over it to hide the foam. To me the subractive method seems like more expense and waste because you but all this foam and end up carving away a quarter to a third of it and throw it in the trash! If you save cardboard boxes, the cardboard is basically free. You just take a box cutter and cut it into long strips and the only cost if for the hot glue to attach it to the benchwork or framing.

Here are some photos showing both the track going down on cork with nails and cardboard strips with hot glue to create canyon walls.










Then plaster gauz over the cardboard stips










In this case the cardboard strips werern't simply to build land forms on, they actually are the land forms!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I had never heard of it before a year ago as I had been out of the hobby since 1987.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Welcome back.

There has been a boat load of excellent new products since 1987 but if you haven't already noticed, there is major sticker shock! But thats a different topic.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Yes, it was a major sticker shock when I chose to model German, Swiss, and Austrian railroads.


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## Andreash (Dec 30, 2018)

To Riogrande, that is impressive work you do....

I like using track nails. My railway sits on 1/2 plywood, with cork roadbed. I use 3/4 brad nails to attach the cork, and requires no glue. If a mistake is made, the cork can be pried off, brads removed, and relaid. There is no waiting for glue to set, and I can lay track down quickly as well. I have had to remove track because sometimes in testing a small issue comes up. The landforms are made with white styrofoam, the kind that no one recommends, because it beads when cut. But I use a hot knife, and style them that no plaster is required. I used the white styrofoam because it was free. I then use wood screws and washers to hold them in place. Again, on my Burlington Northern railway all the landforms were completed and attached in 2 hours. I do prepaint them the base colour before installing, as that is easier to do as well. 

I’ve used pink form in the past, and it’s a good product, but it’s expensive. 

I one thing I like about form, (even with the white foam) is the ability to carve rocks into it (again using a hot knife (I use woodland scenics knife), and a box cutter knife. I wouldn’t recommend the white styrofoam if the only tool to cut it was a box cutter...cheers


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2019)

Nice work Rio. Your track looks great. Using nails or pins to hold track down is a good idea. They don't stand out as much OO Robertson screws. Although all three can be toned down by a coloured marker or by other forms of weathering. Having used cork and screws to hold down track for the last build, I will now use Flexxbed under the tracks and pins to hold them to the foam. I will also use some screws where needed. Great to use screws at round house tracks, switches, and transfer tables. Basically any transition point. Easy to adjust height differentials. Your use of cardboard strips is definitely the way to go in my opinion as well. Having watched Eric's Trains tutorials on landscaping using Bragdon Enterprises latex moulds has convinced me this is the way to go. Prices for the molds and materials needed is very reasonable. Make up a few jigs and you can move at a pretty good clip. Not as messy as well and they take paint very well. Versatile also as they can be shaped with a pair of scissors.

All The Best,

Gary.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

riogrande said:


> Personal preference is right.
> 
> I do not find track nails and ME spike to be fiddly at all, rather they allow me to lay track with precision on the center-line that I draw carefully. The track is down *now*, not later when the adhesive sets up. I can tweak it a tiny bit while siting down the rail if need to get smooth flowing track.
> 
> ...


Well, you can find reasons to object to just about anything. Yes, adhesives do take a while to set, but I've never found that to be a real issue (model railroading isn't an instant gratification hobby), and with the right adhesives, things don't move on you, and with a little care (no more than that needed to make sure you don't overdrive spikes and pinch your gauge), it's extremely easy to get just enough adhesive and keep from obscuring the centerline. And since you're not gobbling it on, it isn't that hard to remove, either.

You're also mischaracterizing the "subtractive method". It's not like we put on huge slabs of stuff and then proceed to carve half of it away. You roughly shape the pieces, which conserves material. You only carve away for the fine contours. And for me, this makes it much easier to get the exact shape I want. It's also funny that you object to the cure time of adhesives but not the setting time of plaster.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

I don't use track nails or ME spike for "instant gratification". I used that method because I learned it before foam & adhesives became popular, and it works well for the a number of reasons - chiefly I like how flexible it is yet I can still lay track accurately and I feel I have more control over how I lay the track. It's true, the nails/spikes method does have a bonus of being quick, and with a full-time job and a long commute to work and a fixer-upper house, it is a help to be able to lay track and have it down right away - one less thing to wait on.

I do like the nails/spike method and I get very good results as shown above. The Atlas track nails can be removed once the track reaches a point that it is ballasted and fixed. Not using adhesives gives you time to "shake-down" the track to be sure you are happy with the geometry and arrangement before it is fixed with adhesives. It isn't "funny" at all to desire to have time saving methods where possible. As I mentioned earlier it's a bonus, not a primary reason.

In my last layout, I did intend to ballast it, but water issues in basement forced me to remove a couple of the layout sections to rip out drywall and then put it back, and with the track fixed with nails and spikes it was easy to remove it and put it back, several times actually as I put back the layout sections and removed them a second time. (hence one of the flexible feature of the method) By the time I was getting scenery in and ready to ballast it was time to sell the town-home and move. All the track was removed "clean" and re-usable.



> You're also mischaracterizing the "subtractive method".


Not fundamentally and not a bad thing. You remove material to get a shape, like a sculptor does starting with a general shape and carving away material so that what is left is a human figure or head.

There are pros and cons to many methods so we all try to find one that works for us. Others can read and decide and settle on what works for them.

Peace.


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Andreash said:


> To Riogrande, that is impressive work you do....
> 
> I like using track nails. My railway sits on 1/2 plywood, with cork roadbed. I use 3/4 brad nails to attach the cork, and requires no glue. If a mistake is made, the cork can be pried off, brads removed, and relaid. There is no waiting for glue to set, and I can lay track down quickly as well. I have had to remove track because sometimes in testing a small issue comes up.


Thanks. Good points about removal. I've made mistakes or as mentioned, had to take apart two sections of my layout to deal with water issues in the basement, so being able to pull out nails and remove track facilitated easy removal of the bench-work sections at least twice.

You mentioned cork. I think it was an Atlas N-scale book I learned about fastening cork down with small nails and still do it that way. I re-used some cork from a layout I tore down in 1999 because I was able to pull out the tiny nails with needle nose pliers and reuse it. It was a dried out from years in storage but re-useable non-the-less and I was able to sand it to re-shape it.



> The landforms are made with white styrofoam, the kind that no one recommends, because it beads when cut. But I use a hot knife, and style them that no plaster is required. I used the white styrofoam because it was free. I then use wood screws and washers to hold them in place. Again, on my Burlington Northern railway all the landforms were completed and attached in 2 hours. I do prepaint them the base colour before installing, as that is easier to do as well.
> 
> I’ve used pink form in the past, and it’s a good product, but it’s expensive.
> 
> I one thing I like about form, (even with the white foam) is the ability to carve rocks into it (again using a hot knife (I use woodland scenics knife), and a box cutter knife. I wouldn’t recommend the white styrofoam if the only tool to cut it was a box cutter...cheers


I know what you mean about the beads in the white foam. I may give foam a try on the next layout. I'll check the cost of sheets of it and decide. I've tested and tried making land forms with cardboard strips as shown above, and know that can work well, but it might be fun to experiment with a hot wire too.


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## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

MichaelE said:


> Thirty years ago I never heard of anyone glueing track down either to cork or right on the sub-roadbed.
> 
> When did this become popular? When people stopped being taught how to use a hammer and a punch? Or when foam started being used instead of wood for sub-roadbed? I guess that was because no one was taught anymore to use a saw, square, and a straightedge.
> 
> As you said, there is no right or wrong way, but I'm interested in knowing when this shift away from traditional benchwork and trackwork started.


that"s easy to figger out----ie easier to do , cheaper to use glue. Saw's, hammers, straight thingy's that"s harder to do. its just lazier and easier to do it another way. foam is so easy to make into what you want , wood is very hard to work with. easy ='s getting it done faster mostly keeping cost down..... my opinion


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

A little related: For me and those who use Atlas flex on cork, I wish Atlas would stop putting the nail holes in the center and instead put 2 of them, 1 in each of the opposing tie plates. 
Why? Spikes don't grab due to they going right into the center of the split in the 2 cork halves. Holes could be every, say, 30th tie or such. But I guess Atlas tooling up for this might be steep, forcing the price up...


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

You are supposed to nail the track to the sub-roadbed, not to the cork. Use longer track nails. It should make no difference where the brad penetrates the cork.

1/2" track nails will penetrate into the sub-roadbed.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Personally, I never use nails, I use screws.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Well I suppose nails or screws are the method. If and when I build my next layout I'll try those instead, as long as I could remove them later after ballasting..I don't care for the look they leave...

Happy New Decapod ! M


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Personally, I never use nails, I use screws.


Who makes screws that tiny? 



> Well I suppose nails or screws are the method. If and when I build my next layout I'll try those instead, as long as I could remove them later after ballasting..I don't care for the look they leave...


I've used a combination of Atlas track nails and MicroEngineering spikes on 3 layouts so far and like that method well enough to keep using it going forward.

Of course the ME spikes you can leave in place but after fastening the track down with ballast and adhesive, you can pull out the Atlas track nails with needle nose pliers. If need be a tiny bit of putty can fill the hole. I paint my track so any evidence of past track nails will be erased.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

BELATED THANKS FOR ALL THE STORIES AND ADVICE..I DID LEARN A FEW THINGS..M


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