# Short problem



## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Hi everyone,

Thank again for helping me resolve my last power problem.

Another problem has come up: My engines short at the exact same spot in my yard. In the photo below, an engine coming from the right stalls at the "x" - three different spots. 

It was explained to me a while back that it is likely the engine wheels touching different tracks on the turnout and that a touch of nail polish should resolve this.

Do you think this is the case? Where do I need to apply the nail polish?

Thanks,
Mike


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm assuming you're talking about the center track. I don't this one has anything to do with the turnouts. The short segment of track you placed between the turnouts is badly linked at both ends, and is likely forcing the wheels of your locos where they shouldn't be going. It may even be bad enough to be binding the wheels, causing an overload, not a short.

RIP that section out and relay it with everything nice and smooth. There are tricks to fixing turnouts, but they can't overcome bad track work.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Are you sure it's a short or could it possibly be no power to the track?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It appears to be brass track. Clean it first to see any improvement.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I see a kink in the track at the blue arrow. Is it my imagination, or is the curve at the red arrow quite a bit tighter than the other curves? Depending on what you're running, that could be another issue.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I see the kink at the blue arrow, but I don't see any issue around the red arrow. It does look like there's a change in radius of the top track, but its hard to tell without seeing more track to the left and right of this photo.

I think that kink is going to cause derailment problems, especially at speed. Maybe its causing the truck to ride up and cause a short at slower speeds??


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Look at the turnout. See where the left rail of the divert track meets the right rail of the straight track. Yes, this is a spot where the fingernail
polish on EITHER (but not both) rail can prevent wheels from shorting out and causing pause or stop. Try that and see if it resolves the
problem.

Don


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks Don R. Do you mean one of the tracks in either blue circle (1 or 2)?


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone. I had seen the kink after I took the pic, I have smoothed it out.

I also gave the track a good cleaning and checked the rail connectors. I measured with a multimeter and there is now the same power in the two turnouts and the small tracks in between.

Mike


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Most likely the convergence of the rails nearest the track with the kink, #1.

I have one TRIX locomotive that would do this on a #8 Peco turnout. Nail polish fixed it.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

The V tracks in circle 1. Just put the nail polish on one rail, the one least used if possible.
You can see it in Michael's pic.

Magic


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

You need to cover BOTH rails. The reason is that, if the metal tire is on a covered rail, but touches however briefly the opposite rail that is not covered, it will short. Covering only the one rail means you can't get whichever phase/polarity the rail is otherwise being fed, but if it isn't the correct one, bridging to an adjacent non-covered rail will cause a short. If you cover both of them, you do extend the dead zone of the isolated frog, unfortunately, but only for a very short distance, perhaps 3-5mm, enough to get more distance between those two diverging rails.

In case that doesn't seem right, think of a left wheel riding toward the frog on the through route, but along the opposite end of the points. It encounters a covered bit of rail that is of opposite feed, being fed by a power-routing turnout down the line from it, and as you'd expect, nothing happens. There's no conflict under that metal tire, even if the tire bridges the two rails because the far rail has been painted to prevent contact. 

Now have the train coming from the points end toward the frog, taking the diverging route. The left wheel runs over the frog, which is dead, and makes contact with the painted patch you placed on the diverging frog rail. However, it bridges, as before, both rails for a brief second. It makes contact with the far live rail, which is being powered in a conflicting way, and you have the very short you had wanted to avoid.

This does depend on power routing and wiring around that turnout. I might be that there is no conflict at the frog rails, but in the case of Peco Insulfrog turnouts, they are power routing. When taking the diverging route of such a turnout, the two frog rails are in direct conflict, which is why the frog is isolated electrically by design in the first place. Bridge those two rails with a metal tire and you'll get an instant short. If you paint BOTH rails for that extended distance to get them a bit more separated so that the metal tire cannot bridge the gap between them, you'll have success.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MikeL said:


> Thanks everyone. I had seen the kink after I took the pic, I have smoothed it out.
> 
> I also gave the track a good cleaning and checked the rail connectors. I measured with a multimeter and there is now the same power in the two turnouts and the small tracks in between.
> 
> Mike


I often find taking pictures helps. The camera is excellent at picking up things that our eyes miss.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

MikeL

No, you would put polish on ONE of the rails at the POINT were
they come together (the LEFT blue circle) This is where a wheel CAN touch both rails which
would create a short circuit.

Don


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Hi all,

Thanks again for your help everyone. A little nailpolish et voila - problem gone 

Mike


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

T-Man said:


> It appears to be brass track. Clean it first to see any improvement.


Yeah. Dat be some nasty track to deal with..It oxidizes green non-conductive moss..
Glad you solved the problem..But if layout is that dear to you you just may want to begin a slow change to nickle silver track like he has in post #10 and also do some shifting around to get that kink out at gunrunnerjohn's blue line, post 5..( Though I have seen worse kinks on the 1:1 scale, the model is way less forgiving, beginning with shear weight/gravity issues. + 1:1 bad-kinked track is left that way as traffic across it is so... v.. e.. r.. y... s~~ l~~ o~~ w~~~ Indus.-spur work [1-5 Mph-ish] and other tertiary track movements..Within yard limits, say...)...
So, if that is the intent on the modeler, then by all means leave it in !..Only, then, small-wheel based power, usually scale 5Mph-ing switchers, will tend to stall out over 'all-live' un-powered frog switches (TOs) such as these !..Where as, at-speed [40mph+], trains; passenger, fast freight, might not stall, *but* then could/would likely derail !! And what a mess that would be, and obviously why main line rail is tended to by MOW the most ~ Speed/efficiency~ )....
All the beast, *M*


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

telltale said:


> Yeah. Dat be some nasty track to deal with..It oxidizes green non-conductive moss..
> Glad you solved the problem..But if layout is that dear to you you just may want to begin a slow change to nickle silver track like he has in post #10 and also do some shifting around to get that kink out at gunrunnerjohn's blue line, post 5...


I' m pretty sure it isn't brass - I thought I got rid of that years ago  I'll make sure I clean it well.

Mike


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