# Woodland Scenics vinyl grass mat



## cprib

Has anyone ever used WS vinyl grass mat for their layout before(advantages or disadvantages)? I'm going to add ground foam in certain areas for a more textured appearance.
I am constucting my first HO 4' x 6' layout - using 1/4" birch plywood as a base - and I want to know, what is the best way to secure the mat?
Also, I am utilizing Atlas code 100 track and it will be anchored(w/brad nails) directly to the mat/plywood, finished with matte glued ballast. 
Is track bed highly recommended for sectional track usage(I won't mind any noise) or is it really a matter of preference?
Thank you for any help in this matter!


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## tjcruiser

I have not used WS's vinyl grass ... I used their shaky grass powder, instead.

However ... they do have some "how to" videos you might want to check out. Here's one, for example:

http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/video/RG5162

I don't know if the heat-shrink vinyl grass would be all that convincing for larger hills with more contours.

They do make a special adhesive for the mat. I'm not sure what makes it "special".

Rule #1 in model RR ... there really is no rule, except what makes you happy. Track bed is largely a matter of personal preference. Many guys like cork for the noise dampening benefit, and in that it creates a pre-formed mound that you can cover later with ballast stone, if you like. I used the strip cork on my HO layout (though left it bare), and am happy with the results.

Other guys prefer making their ballast mound with ballast rock, only ... they feel that a home-made mound can yield a better contour, rather than the more perfect bevel edge that's inherent with the precut cork.

Are you sure 1/4" ply is adequate for your base? That sounds quite thin to me, and prone to flexing, warping, etc.

I'd recommend 1/2" or 3/4" MDF ... cheap, solid, and dead-flat.

Regards,

TJ


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## Smokestack Lightning

tjcruiser said:


> I have not used WS's vinyl grass ... I used their shaky grass powder, instead.
> 
> However ... they do have some "how to" videos you might want to check out. Here's one, for example:
> 
> http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/video/RG5162
> 
> I don't know if the heat-shrink vinyl grass would be all that convincing for larger hills with more contours.
> 
> They do make a special adhesive for the mat. I'm not sure what makes it "special".
> 
> Rule #1 in model RR ... there really is no rule, except what makes you happy. Track bed is largely a matter of personal preference. Many guys like cork for the noise dampening benefit, and in that it creates a pre-formed mound that you can cover later with ballast stone, if you like. I used the strip cork on my HO layout (though left it bare), and am happy with the results.
> 
> Other guys prefer making their ballast mound with ballast rock, only ... they feel that a home-made mound can yield a better contour, rather than the more perfect bevel edge that's inherent with the precut cork.
> 
> Are you sure 1/4" ply is adequate for your base? That sounds quite thin to me, and prone to flexing, warping, etc.
> 
> I'd recommend 1/2" or 3/4" MDF ... cheap, solid, and dead-flat.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> TJ


+1. 1/4" is way too thin.


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## Reckers

The 1/4" plywood will only work if you make a really substantial underframing. Otherwise, it will flex from heat and humidity, yourself pressing against it, weight of your terrain and layout...all these factors will introduce torquing into that thin a sheet. By substantial, I'd go with no larger an unsupported area than 18" x 18". You might find it simpler to go with a more substantial sheet thickness and reduce the investment beneath the sheet's surface.


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## cprib

Thanks for your expertise gentlemen!
I must admit, my original plan was to utilize the aforementioned 1/4" plywood set-up along with at least a 3/4", if not a 1" pc. of foamboard. The reason I elected to use the grass mat was because I thought it would take less time to prepare than using the foam, including painting the base color, applying the turf, and also the temptation to add shallow water features or to shave undulations into the landscape.

So ... the question is now, would you recommend my original plan using the 1" foamboard? Don't get me wrong, I love try the foam and all it's fun challenges, but I was also thinking of completing this project before the early December Christmas holiday.
Thank you again!!!


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## tjcruiser

Cprib,

Couple of follow-on thoughts ...

Increase the ply (or MDF) thickness, as discussed.

The reason for foam on top of your base plywood is twofold: (1) some level of sound dampening, and (2) vertical height that can be carved/cut into to make any local ravines or changes in topography.

That said, you need to envision how much change in elevation (height) you expect in your layout's topography, and then associate where those changes best fit into any required stack of foam buildup. If most of your layout is "flatland", along with a few local hills, then I'd suggest that "flatland" could be the top of the plywood (covered in grass) itself. However, if a 2" deep river ravine cuts through the middle of your layout, then "flatland" exists on top of a 2" starter foam buildup. See how that works?

I built a simple (but fun) HO layout about a year ago. It's a simple "flatland" layout, plus a mountain/tunnel off to one side. I opted to lay the grass and roads via glue-on shaky powder stuff directly to the top of my MDF base. Came out nice. However, in retrospect, I think I would do it over using a 4'x8' sheet of the vinyl-type grass mat, with local cutouts as needed for roads and the like. Especially if time were critical.

Examples ... my "flatland" layout










Vs. this river ravine layout (Bman's) ...










There's no right or wrong here ... whatever suits your needs best.

Cheers,

TJ


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## jzrouterman

*Gluing grassmat to board*

I found that the quickest way to do this is to spray the surface of the board with some GM Spray Adhesive. It works a lot better if the board is first primed with at least two coats of a wood primer. Be sure to properly sand the surface of the board between coats, because the smoother the surface is, the better the glue will stick. Once all of this is done and the primer is dry, apply the spray adhesive. When the adhesive becomes tacky and sticky to the touch, then just simply roll the mat out slowly across the board, pressing gently as you go, This will eliminate the chance of trapping unwanted air underneith it. Incidentally, this proceedure works a lot easier if two people are working together doing this. 

The only negative aspect about this method is it will not be very easy to pull the mat back up again and may be destroyed while trying to do so. Woodland Scenics glue however, will allow the mat to be removed without it being destroyed. It's just that applying their glue takes longer then does applying a sray adhesive. Also, the big reason I chose Woodland Scenic's grass matt over the other brands' mats is because the Woodland Scenics mat is made out of vinyl, whereas other mats are basically made out of paper. 

This makes a big difference if one chooses to do any painting on it such as roads, etc. especially if the paint that's being used is waterbased. Paper, when painted with water based paint will wrinkle, causing the appearance to be quite phoney looking. However, the vinyl, on the other hand, won't wrinkle, therefore enabling the end result to appear to be a lot more convincing to the eye.

As far as what thickness that the board should be, I've always have had good results using 3/4 inch plywood. To some, 3/4 may be kind of an overkill, but it's positive aspect is that it can withstand my weight without buckling or warping if I have to lean across it while working on something, therefore eliminating any possibility of the track working itself loose. 

For your question about the cork, I've always used cork under my track, as it just looks a lot more real to do so. It's sort of like why I almost always run multible engines (at least two) with my freights, simply because it looks more real. I mean, in real life, one hardly ever sees a freight going by (whether it's highballing or switching) being pulled with just only one engine.


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## Smokestack Lightning

jzrouterman said:


> I found that the quickest way to do this is to spray the surface of the board with some GM Spray Adhesive. It works a lot better if the board is first primed with at least two coats of a wood primer. Be sure to properly sand the surface of the board between coats, because the smoother the surface is, the better the glue will stick. Once all of this is done and the primer is dry, apply the spray adhesive. When the adhesive becomes tacky and sticky to the touch, then just simply roll the mat out slowly across the board, pressing gently as you go, This will eliminate the chance of trapping unwanted air underneith it. Incidentally, this proceedure works a lot easier if two people are working together doing this.
> 
> The only negative aspect about this method is it will not be very easy to pull the mat back up again and may be destroyed while trying to do so. Woodland Scenics glue however, will allow the mat to be removed without it being destroyed. It's just that applying their glue takes longer then does applying a sray adhesive. Also, the big reason I chose Woodland Scenic's grass matt over the other brands' mats is because the Woodland Scenics mat is made out of vinyl, whereas other mats are basically made out of paper.
> 
> This makes a big difference if one chooses to do any painting on it such as roads, etc. especially if the paint that's being used is waterbased. Paper, when painted with water based paint will wrinkle, causing the appearance to be quite phoney looking. However, the vinyl, on the other hand, won't wrinkle, therefore enabling the end result to appear to be a lot more convincing to the eye.
> 
> As far as what thickness that the board should be, I've always have had good results using 3/4 inch plywood. To some, 3/4 may be kind of an overkill, but it's positive aspect is that it can withstand my weight without buckling or warping if I have to lean across it while working on something, therefore eliminating any possibility of the track working itself loose.
> 
> For your question about the cork, I've always used cork under my track, as it just looks a lot more real to do so. It's sort of like why I almost always run multible engines (at least two) with my freights, simply because it looks more real. I mean, in real life, one hardly ever sees a freight going by (whether it's highballing or switching) being pulled with just only one engine.


Do you mean 3M spray adhesive?


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## jzrouterman

*Vinyl grassmat*



Smokestack Lightning said:


> Do you mean 3M spray adhesive?


Yes. I'm sure other brands would work sufficiently, but I've only use #M brand.


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## Russell

To Tjcruiser. I really like your 'Flatland' layout. There's something wonderfully childlike about it. 

In some ways or maybe sometimes, realism is overrated. At the very least it's not the only value.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks, Russell! Much appreciated!

It's a simple layout, for sure. Flat. Old school DC. One twisted loop. But my kids and I enjoy it ... that's what counts.

Cheers,

TJ


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