# New Lionel command system



## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Rumor is there is a new system coming that enables control of all Lionel command locos through an app or the Legacy handheld (cab 2). It will enable control of Bluetooth, LionChief, TMCC and Legacy locos with one remote through a new device. About time







. It would be a nice thing as they leave the scene for MTH to allow Lionel to control DCS (PS2 and PS3) locos through this device, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Unlikely it will control DCS. They would have to essentially put a TIU in the same box as their new all interface controller. Plus you would still have the issue of getting good DCS signal on a big layout which is the primary reason many avoid DCS. Better if they developed a module that would fit in an existing MTH engine that would convert TMCC or Bluetooth to DCS.

Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I was thinking more along the lines of the device connecting to a WIU or TIU and issuing commands through that device, much the way the TIU issues commands to the Lionel command bases. Would also please those who prefer a physical remote to an app if the TIU/DCS remote becomes completely history. But it's probably far in the future if at all. If MTH fades away, as seems likely at some point, then the possibility of using DCS without threat of lawsuits becomes more likely for Lionel or whoever wants to step in.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

neilblumberg said:


> If MTH fades away, as seems likely at some point, then the possibility of using DCS without threat of lawsuits becomes more likely for Lionel or whoever wants to step in.


I will faint dead away if Lionel ever embraces DCS in any way! There's absolutely no incentive for them to do so. Anything they can do to make orphans of all the DCS locomotives would be a big plus for their sales.


neilblumberg said:


> Rumor is there is a new system coming that enables control of all Lionel command locos through an app or the Legacy handheld (cab 2).


My ear is pretty close to the ground, and I don't hear such rumors. I know of a project that's attempting to control DCS through the Legacy remote, but it's hardly a "system". One enterprising guy is working on a collection of off the shelf parts to cobble together a method of controlling DCS through the Legacy remote.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> My ear is pretty close to the ground, and I don't hear such rumors. I know of a project that's attempting to control DCS through the Legacy remote, but it's hardly a "system". One enterprising guy is working on a collection of off the shelf parts to cobble together a method of controlling DCS through the Legacy remote.


Its a coming. I doubt it will control DCS though. Very little is known just what got posted and later removed from online.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Well I just thought I’d weigh in on this and hope that you believe what I’m going to tell you.

During the development of the Legacy System by a collaboration between Lou Kovatch and Neil Young, Lou held several meetings with various individuals throughout the country to get their input as to what features they wanted in the system. The two of them were also involved in the development of the software and hardware in Legacy engines.

Lou actually demonstrated the Legacy System at a LCCA convention and allowed attendees to actually operate the prototype system and a Lionel Big Boy. One of my friends Al Nash was there and got to operate the system.

During a meeting that Lou held in the grandstand during the TCA meet at the same time we were able to ask questions with regard to the system and it’s capabilities. Norm Charbonneau asked Lou if the Legacy System could operate the MTH engines in full command. Lou said that it was capable.

The senior executives were not happy about the progress being made by Lou and he was subsequently taken off the project and replace by Jon Zahomnacky. Lou left Lionel at that time. The system and engine components were actually redesigned by Jon and his team. The engine and system was released by Lionel.

Sometime after that rumors surfaced that Legacy could indeed operate MTH DCS engines in full command. This was confirmed in a conversation I had with Barry Berkowitz. It turned out that there was a back door in the MTH system that allowed that. Fearing another lawsuit Lionel informed Mike Wolf and MTH closed the door.

Then Lionel had a total recall of all first issued Legacy Systems and owners were required to send back the remotes and bases. This was in the guise of hardware updates but it was really to make sure that whatever hardware or software that made the operation of MTH engines in command was removed.

So, believe it or not but I swear that it is a true account of the early days of the development of the Legacy System.

Doubt of Lionel is developing a new system. Why reinvent the wheel unless it would be a major step forward.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Someone posted what sure looked like a credible catalog page from the new catalog, illustrating the device on a private Facebook page. Not really a new system but a hardware/software combo that unifies Bluetooth, LionChief, TMCC/Legacy controls through one "command base." Claims to control all Lionel systems from an app or the Legacy handheld. Won't control DCS obviously. We'll see in January .

With regard to TJSmith's interesting post, it's amazing how bad people are at predicting the future. When Lionel introduced TMCC 25 or so years ago, some predicted that it was unnecessary and that MTH's proto 1 was a better system (seriously?). We know how that turned out when six years later, MTH finally got the TIU out and DCS was going to bury Lionel because DCS had "two way communication" and "more features." Not quite how that turned out. Now we are decades later and MTH (and DCS as an actively developed system) seems likely to be slowly headed to extinction, and Lionel is going to die because of quality issues that many or most of us have not experienced. I see a theme here . Perhaps just dealing with reality rather than predicting the always uncertain future. Enjoy the present, it's the only future we're assured of.


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

neilblumberg said:


> Someone posted what sure looked like a credible catalog page from the new catalog, illustrating the device on a private Facebook page. Not really a new system but a hardware/software combo that unifies Bluetooth, LionChief, TMCC/Legacy controls through one "command base." Claims to control all Lionel systems from an app or the Legacy handheld. Won't control DCS obviously. We'll see in January .


That was my understanding as well. Something was posted online and removed pretty quickly. Only a few weeks away and we'll see for sure.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Interesting thread, now I’m really looking forward to the catalog


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I wouldn’t find using a single controller to run multiple engines an advantage. Current Legacy and DCS handhelds only toggle between two engines. Even that is a bit of pain. More than two and you have to punch in a new ID. I will keep my collection of handhelds. In the oft chance this new controller makes it easier to run say a half dozen engines then it might be worth considering.

Pete


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

lionel needs to do something as that app is crap.


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## 3railbnsf (Apr 2, 2018)

bigdodgetrain said:


> lionel needs to do something as that app is crap.


If this new system works as good as the current Lionchief Android app, it'll crash before you get anything moving. I really think they should focus more on getting this app working before putting something new out there... the reviews are not good:









I have my doubts something is on the horizon as they haven't filed anything with the FCC for new hardware other than stuff related to lionechief & ready to play sets. But the idea is interesting and should be easy to do with the DB9 port on the bases. Honestly anyone could do it using a simple a bluetooth to RS232 module and build a program to run on a phone, tablet or laptop to inject TMCC commands. Not to mention that eTrain has software and an app that already does all of this.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)




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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Interesting, so to me it looks like the base is new hardware but the controller is virtual. or existing handhelds can be used. Anyone else care to speculate?

Pete


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Leaked? Like a Kardashian sex video


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Since legacy is low frequency rf and all the "chiefs" are Bluetooth... I can't quite see technically why for example if you already have a legacy base why you'd need a new different base for this. Because to me the phone should be connectable to the legacy base in various ways including just a serial line. The phone has Bluetooth. So maybe a blue tooth to legacy base dongle. Then of course blue tooth to the chiefs .


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

He seemed to imply the new N&W A will have a few features that only this new system can activate.

Pete


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Ah I missed that part... I probably won't but if my legacy system ever goes kaput one day I might just go dcc. I'm used to it now in ho and kinda like the ubiquity of it, I guess is a way to say. But I realize it's not cost effective overall.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> He seemed to imply the new N&W A will have a few features that only this new system can activate.
> 
> Pete


What will be interesting and where most of the comments will be about is pricing. The new A which I have no doubt will be north of 2 grand retail, with new features That can only be accessed via new hardware/app which will cost ???? Oh I can the threads now.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I have what I want with the LC+Bluetooth remotes, so I'm happy.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

One thing that's not likely but would be nice is if the "user" side of the box were open so others could build/sell their own controllers. I actually think I prefer a custom hand held to the phone based app. Or it could be levers and knobs and rocker switches. Lionel shouldn't in my mind care about that... someone else could build and sell it. Yeah I know, not happening.
Anyway on pricing,the only real way to beat Lionel the monopoly now is to walk in some manner.
There's certainly plenty of used available ... I didn't see anything terribly compelling in the vid that a used previous same or similar engine wouldn't be just fine for me at least.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Severn said:


> Since legacy is low frequency rf and all the "chiefs" are Bluetooth... I can't quite see technically why for example if you already have a legacy base why you'd need a new different base for this. Because to me the phone should be connectable to the legacy base in various ways including just a serial line. The phone has Bluetooth. So maybe a blue tooth to legacy base dongle. Then of course blue tooth to the chiefs .


Obviously, they would no longer be producing either the existing Legacy base or CAB2 remote if this comes to pass. I see zero chance they'd keep both products in the stable, I'm sure a primary goal here is cost reduction.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The Base3 appears to combine the wifi receiver with Legacy much like the current MTH TIU. No more need for a separate module. Bluetooth is still from your phone or iPad. The Cab3 app just brings everything together on a screen.

Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I hope they (Lionel) continue to manufacture physical remotes that can communicate with their various command bases or, as with LionChief, directly with the locos. Rock solid communication system in my experience. Although TMCC has been been good, there are some glitches. Bluetooth hasn't been perfect from what I read. And let's not even start on DCS . Let's just say there can be glitches of puzzling nature beyond what one sees with DCC or TMCC/Legacy. The new proposed TIU/WIU won't even have remote capacity other than through the app/wi-fi. To me that's circling the drain in terms of customer diversity/happiness. Ever diminishing choices is not a good thing in any hobby.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

No matter how you slice it, O scale trains are getting way too expensive. Not sure how much longer anyone can sell new trains at current asking prices or attract new people to the hobby.

Pete


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I’m sure many will enjoy their new command system. Happy for them and new technology.

I won’t be biting though, my needs have changed and that’s not being negative or berating to others who like the new change. 

An honest assessment revealed a lot about what I enjoy. Highly recommended.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"No matter how you slice it, O scale trains are getting way too expensive. Not sure how much longer anyone can sell new trains at current asking prices or attract new people to the hobby."

Pete, if I recall correctly, toy trains were always expensive. My parents couldn't afford them in the 1950s. 20 or 30 dollars then (the cost of a set or a new locomotive) are like 200 or 300 dollars now give or take, and incomes are actually proportionally higher. So not much has changed except there are many more things to spend money on, including health care, video games, cell phones, streaming TV, etc. And Lionel has sets that are actually cheaper than sets were in the 1950s (you can get a Thomas set for $150 at times), and Menard's rolling stock is cheaper than a Lionel freight car in the 1950s. Lionel has LionChief locos for around $200 as separate sale, not all that different from the 1950s. So while still an expensive hobby, so is dinner for a family of our at nice restaurant. 

If you listen to the A Modeler's Life podcast recently, Jason Shron, the founder of Rapido trains (mostly HO and some N) says that all the manufacturers he knows had their best year ever in 2021. Rapido makes HO trains that are more expensive than most O gauge trains. So the industry seems to be doing very well, perhaps due to people with time on their hands due to the pandemic. I assume the same is true of Lionel, their dealers and the hobby shops that are doing all this special ordering of MTH stuff.

What's different for us is that people in their 60s, 70s and older remember when gas was 25 cents a gallon and most are now on fixed incomes. So our view of costs is seen through a different set of lenses.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

200-300 dollars for a set I can see but Lionel has also been making sets for $2000 (Cardinal, Pacemaker to name a couple) along with engines alone that cost that much. For me its less about the number than the value. Adding whistle steam isn’t worth a grand to me.

Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Someone must be buying that stuff, or they wouldn't keep producing it. The 2000 dollar locos and sets. I suppose the 700E for $75.00 in the 1930s would be the same sort of value proposition. There are a lot more rich people these days than in the 1930s and 1950s, so that's another factor. $2000 is a lot to most of us, but pocket change to literally millions of Americans.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Well, being my experience Christmas Day with a Lionchief Polar 5.0 set where the app that worked just 2 days earlier somehow updated and was broken again with a permissions issue to access the microphone and that then locked up the app requiring a reboot of the phone. Again, I tested the app just days earlier to get a feel for the LC 5.0 VSR features but it was working. Christmas day the same app locks up when I went into the VSR screen. From there you were stuck.

So, on one hand, if you were building a brand new layout tomorrow, and they sold this base that has the built in wifi eliminating the need for the LCS wifi module if you are trying to do LCS with a iPad, OK, the sounds all fine and dandy. *But, then if you don't get a CAB2 remote and your only control entry point is now this new app*, and it's this all in one app and *they cannot get the Lionchief app right,* what makes me have *any confidence* that Lionel developers can get an *even more complicated app together *and test it on multiple devices before releasing updates?

*Again, what is the takeaway?
CAB2 support days might be numbered* and that matters for a lot of folks. I've sent 2 in for repair in the last year. This is a little bit of a warning notice to send in your broken or marginal sets now and get them repaired for free while you can.
*Lionel is depending heavily on apps, and yet does not have a mature app development and testing release cycle as proven over and over with broken releases.*

Again, what I'm hearing is, great, if building a new system- your path forward appears to be simplified (less components wired together) you buy this new base, and use your smart device and cross your fingers and pray the app works with you device that week, if you are lucky. Again, on one hand, built in LCS integration gets you closer to a unified system.
Except the flip side is,* you then fully depend on your own supplied smart device*, and you pray that between OS updates and Lionel updates, *you can actually use that device and not find the app crashing* or non functional when you go to run trains.

*But then here is the skillset problem.* You have folks who cannot connect 2 wires if their life depended on it to run a train, and these same people are *going to be required to setup a wifi network* and *connect their device to that network. *Then you are going to have the person who either cannot figure out how to bind it to their home network or, they have no clue about bandwidth or routing and then *wonder why they have app connection problems.*


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

It is strange that Williams by Bachmann and their parent company, Kadar Industries ( who has very deep pockets ) has not tried to capture a larger market share of the O guage market. With K-Line, Weaver and some percentage of MTH out of the market sure seems like their is the potential to increase sales.

Bill


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"*But then here is the skillset problem.* You have folks who cannot connect 2 wires if their life depended on it to run a train, and these same people are *going to be required to setup a wifi network* and *connect their device to that network. *Then you are going to have the person who either cannot figure out how to bind it to their home network or, they have no clue about bandwidth or routing and then *wonder why they have app connection problems."

Points well taken. That's the beauty of LionChief. All new Lionel locos have that capability, and they either come with a dedicated remote or the universal remote is $40. Totally intuitive, simple and reliable in my hands. And their competition, DCS is moving completely to the app requirement. Given MTH's slow death spiral that appears to be underway, I am glad I did not invest heavily in DCS and PS2/PS3. I think requiring use of your own smart device to operate a newly bought train set is not a consumer friendly approach and I hope Lionel stays away from that requirement. Make the thing work with the Legacy handheld or the universal remote as well as the app.*


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Jet, good point about App and OS compatibility. My 8 year old iPad is reduced to being a camera as most apps don’t work any more. Can‘t even load the Lionel app on it. We will all be reduced to running our trains with a transformer. Good luck activating that water scoop feature.

Pete


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

Man you guys are really afraid of phone apps .

That being said I'll just continue to run all my DCS and TMCC/Legacy locomotives with one of my DCS remotes. I'll worry what to do later after one of the systems dies. I only have one Legacy locomotive, so I never bought a Legacy base just for it, as the TMCC one works fine. I probably won't buy one either. Everyone seems to sell TMCC locomotives for pennies on the dollar when Lionel makes a new version with whistle steam, so I'll continue buying those on the cheap.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

lou1985 said:


> Man you guys are really afraid of phone apps .


Not all phone apps just Lionel’s and MTH’s. Rarely a week goes by you don’t see a post that their App isn’t working. See Jet’s post. A couple of days and now its dead. Its apparent software is not their strong suit.

Pete


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Norton said:


> Not all phone apps just Lionel’s and MTH’s. Rarely a week goes by you don’t see a post that their App isn’t working. See Jet’s post. A couple of days and now its dead. Its apparent software is not their strong suit.
> 
> Pete


Plus some members reporting serious range issues with the BT. Not sure why that is. Phone BT is we


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I have the DCS App, and can’t stand it. So many flaws/bugs, I gave up years ago using it. It’s a backup to the backup.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

When MTH announced they were closing shop and the handhelds were going away I picked up a wifi with TIU set. This the earlier two piece set. This was only going to be a back up if my handhelds became unrepairable. I did try it out though and can see it could have potential if they could ever perfect it. I just have the free app and surprised how responsive the train was. I can envision a big layout being controlled by a large screen device. Hopefully this or the Lionel LCS will get perfected.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

lou1985 said:


> Man you guys are really afraid of phone apps .


It's not fear Lou, it's dislike of the operating style. A touch screen just doesn't have the tactile feel or one-hand operating convenience as the remotes.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Norton said:


> When MTH announced they were closing shop and the handhelds were going away I picked up a wifi with TIU set. This the earlier two piece set. This was only going to be a back up if my handhelds became unrepairable. I did try it out though and can see it could have potential if they could ever perfect it. I just have the free app and surprised how responsive the train was. I can envision a big layout being controlled by a large screen device. Hopefully this or the Lionel LCS will get perfected.
> 
> Pete


Engine Driver S/W


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

As was already mentioned, if just starting out on a layout or considering command control, this might just be the system for them. I currently have a CAB1-L and an extra remote. No need for anything more.

Does Lionel offer a CAB-2 remote separately like the CAB-1L remotes. If not, then the only choice will be a CAB1-L remote if you go with the new system and want to have a real handheld if somewhat limiting.

My guess is that full blown #990 system will skyrocket in value.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

TJSmith said:


> Does Lionel offer a CAB-2 remote separately like the CAB-1L remotes.


Not exactly separately as a single item, but that is what the expansion 993 set is- a CAB2 and a charging base that is not a command base.








#993 LEGACY Expansion Set


Manufacturer of model trains and accessories in O and standard gauges.




www.lionel.com





Users often buy this to charge their CAB2 instead of using the Legacy base. This is because the legacy base tends to heat up because it's both powering the base and charging the remote (double duty).


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

TJSmith said:


> As was already mentioned, if just starting out on a layout or considering command control, this might just be the system for them. I currently have a CAB1-L and an extra remote. No need for anything more.
> 
> Does Lionel offer a CAB-2 remote separately like the CAB-1L remotes. If not, then the only choice will be a CAB1-L remote if you go with the new system and want to have a real handheld if somewhat limiting.
> 
> My guess is that full blown #990 system will skyrocket in value.


Lionel recently raised the price on all their transformers and command system plus the scalpers are reselling 990s at inflated prices. Train shows are your best bet to get items at more reasonable prices.

Pete


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I found several dealers that had 990 systems in stock, one at list and the other at $50 off list.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

TJSmith said:


> My guess is that full blown #990 system will skyrocket in value.


Actually, since it appears the CAB3 base maybe and this is a big maybe, communicates with a standard CAB2, then the *#993 expansion set is the one that suddenly becomes highly sought after*. No sense in buying or owning a #990 for the command base you won't be using it with CAB3.

But, that then also pushes everything downhill a notch. So you can buy a CAB1L remote and then say suddenly the market opens up with used 990 Legacy bases, people could buy that combination.
Or again, a used Legacy Base plus and LCS wifi in theory is the same basic function as a CAB3 base.

My impression is, this news doesn't make anything yet obsolete.
You only can use 4 digit address with one new engine that isn't even out yet.
It duplicates the functionality of a current 990 Legacy base and an LCS wifi module.
Unkown point, does the CAB3 have a charging cradle for the CAB2?
The app is not even released for beta testing to public, and as pointed out, if they cannot keep and maintain the Lionchief app now, what in the heck makes you think with any confidence they can produce a more complicated app and not break it daily or properly test it before software releases?

5 years from now, maybe with a fleet of engines and equipment that can use the new features this might become more relevant.
Right now, unless you were building from nothing and planned on buying nothing but newer Lionel, I see it as a big nothingburger.


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## 3railbnsf (Apr 2, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's not fear Lou, it's dislike of the operating style. A touch screen just doesn't have the tactile feel or one-hand operating convenience as the remotes.


This is a far cry from a *one handed *remote:








And these barely qualify as well:








I'm always using my left hand to operate some feature of the above remotes while the right hand holds it.
The last one handed remotes that I ever used to runs trains were the MTH IR remotes and the Z4k remote.



Now what if Lionel & MTH release an app based remote with the buttons people want or build in support so that we can now use a gaming controller of our choice with the app:


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's not fear Lou, it's dislike of the operating style. A touch screen just doesn't have the tactile feel or one-hand operating convenience as the remotes.


Notice I said I still use the DCS remote to run everything 😉. I like being able to push buttons by feel. Plus, unlike the Lionel remotes, I can use it one handed.

But worst case, in the future, if I have to run stuff with apps it won't bother me much, as long as they work. The only inconvenience will be having to look at my phone to activate something.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

lou1985 said:


> Notice I said I still use the DCS remote to run everything 😉. I like being able to push buttons by feel. Plus, unlike the Lionel remotes, I can use it one handed.
> 
> But worst case, in the future, if I have to run stuff with apps it won't bother me much, as long as they work. The only inconvenience will be having to look at my phone to activate something.


Lou,

You must have very long fingers if you can just use one hand with the DCS remote.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

I don’t think the 993 set is a good alternative. It’s just too expensive. For a few dollars more to can buy the 990 set and have a spare base.


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## gsgoss1 (Mar 20, 2020)

One thing I do know wont be purchasing the next Legacy no time soon. I‘ve only had my cab2 for two years. But will purchase the new DCS. This would make my layout complete. Unless it breaks.


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## Firewood (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm running 2-throttle cab control. Have I missed anything?😜😜

FW


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Firewood said:


> I'm running 2-throttle cab control. Have I missed anything?😜😜
> 
> FW


Gut reaction.


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## Firewood (Nov 5, 2015)

Jetguy said:


> Gut reaction.
> 😆😆😂😂


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