# Tinplate Traditions Hiawatha Loco--Drive Wheels Locked



## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi!

I bought an MTH Tinplate Traditions Hiawatha set about 6 months back. It was made in the early 2000s, and looked like it had never been run and was sold to me as never run. Everything is clean and bright, the loco rollers are perfect and everything seems well-lubed.

Stupid me didn't run the loco before the purchase. I finally got part of my layout and tried the loco. It powers up and the light goes on, but the drive wheels won't budge. It only seems to power when the reversing switch is toward the left, and the light remains bright in neutral, but the loco does nothing when the switch is toward the right.

So other than being chastised for not getting the loco checked out first, I'm looking for some pointers as to the problem and possible solutions. If this was an 'ordinary' Lionel or Marx engine it would already be apart on my work table, but this one I'm leery about disassembling without some advice.

Thanks in advance, everyone.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Does this engine have the electronics in it?

I got one MTH that when you use the transformer you have to turn it on then off then back on to make it run.
There is a certain sequence you have to go through or it just stays in neutral.
That is when running through a transformer, not the new remote control stuff.

What transformer do you have?
Do you have the original instructions?


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

*MTH Tinplate Hiawatha--Stuck Drive Wheels*

Thank you for the reply, Big Ed!

I'm using a Lionel 1033 transformer. I did try cycling the transformer on and off to no avail.

Since I can't get the drive wheels to even turn by hand, I'm wondering if something in the reversing mechanism is stuck due to it sitting all these years. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

There were virtually no instructions with the set, at least nothing to tell you how to to initially set the train up. There are electronics in the tender, which I did not attach to the loco when I tested it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't know much about more modern locos, but in general, there's no direct mechanical connection between an e-unit and the motor / drive wheels themselves. It's only an electrical connection. If the wheels won't turn by hand, that could be something else mechanical. Or, does it have a worm drive gear? Sometimes, those wheels won't turn by hand (normally).

TJ


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

All I can find out about the loco is that it's an AC motor with a mechanical E-unit (lever sticking out of the top). Does that equal worm drive? Don't know. 

The instructions say the set has Protosounds, which I assume are in the tender. 

Guess it's time to take it to the shop and let someone better experienced take a look at this.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Sorry ... I don't know much about the newer-school stuff.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Can you give me the exact MTH model number?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Sorry ... I don't know much about the newer-school stuff.


It's sounding like it's built just like the Prewar Lionel hiawatha locomotives. If you can figure out how those were built, it should be similar.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

If that's the case, the problem likely lies with the traditional e-unit ... a loose contact finger, a broken wire ... something along those lines. Not sure why the wheels would lock up, though ... unless a gear tooth is broken or there's something jamming a gear tooth? Maybe a misaligned drive rod component? Hard to tell without photos.

Thinking about this, it could be something as simple as a stuck e-unit plunger. Sometimes they stick up, prohibiting the e-unit from ratcheting. Sometimes, a soft pat or two on the top of the loco will free things up.

Ohio, can you remove the shell, take some pics, and see if the motor runs by itself without the shell ... and with drive rod components all removed?

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree with TJ, you're going to have to pull the shell to diagnose this one. Any chance of getting the original MTH product number?


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for the insights, TJcruiser and John. The set number for is 10-3011-1, the loco is marked 250-E on the cab. There is no model number on the underside. 

I tend to agree that the problem is connected with the E-unit. Like I said initially, I paid a pretty good sum for this train so I was reluctant to just tear into it without getting some feedback. Now that I have an idea of where to start looking, it's time to undo some screws.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I'll let you know what I find and take some pix too.

OhioO27


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Is this your set? MTH 10-3011-1

If so, I will first tell you there's no E-Unit, this set has PS/2 command & control capability. This Tinplate O Gauge Hiawatha Set User's Guide has information on lubrication and removing the shell.


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, that is the set number, but the instructions call it a traditional loco, which to me means an e-unit.

I took the loco apart--photos attached. Everything looks brand spanking new---no rust, no dirt, everything well-oiled and grease, nothing amiss. I tried tapping on what I believe is the E-unit to see if was sticking, but no luck--the engine powers on, light goes on, loco doesn't move.

Take a look at the photos and if you have any advice on what to do next, I'm all ears.

Again, thanks for everyone's help


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

And by golly, it really does have an E-Unit!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Turn the e-unit lever so that the "L-tail" of the lever is making contact with the metal contact point/rivet on the left side of the e-unit's fiber plate. This is needed to engage power to the e-unit. If this hasn't been making contact, you might simply have the e-unit (and motor) stuck in the neutral position!

When you apply power to the loco (AC to middle roller pickup on motor, ground to motor wheels or frame), does the e-unit plunger rise up? Does it drop back down when you remove power? (Gravity dependent, so make sure motor is upright for this test.)

Unscrew one or two screws (likely) that hold the e-unit in place. Carefully pull it up/away from the motor sideplates. Ground the e-unit metal casing back to the motor frame with jumper leads. Look inside the lower/back of the e-unit ... you'll see a little cog-tooth drum. When you apply power to the motor/e-unit (on and off, as above), does the cog-tooth drum rotate 1/8 turn with each cycle?

Are any wires running from the e-unit to the motor inadvertenly broken / unsoldered???

Look again inside the lower/back of the e-unit. You'll see a plate with 4 tiny copper "fingers" that should press gently against the drum. VERY carefully, poke each (one at a time) with a toothpick, pushing it ever-so-gently into the drum. Does that get the motor running?

More thoughts, but I'll leave it at that for now.

TJ


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for the testing advice, tjcruiser. I will try them and see what happens.

I did check the wiring for breaks and broken solder connections, everything looked fine. Will double check when I do the testing.

Somebody I know also mentioned that the gears might be misaligned and preventing the wheels from turning. I find that hard to believe--I did check that, but granted not with a straightedge or anything--but I guess it's possible.

I'll keep ya posted on my further Hiawatha adventures...


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Something must be jammed up. The wheels with that gearing arrangement should turn easily by hand. I would also check the drive rods. One of the wheels might be out of quarter and binding up. Take the rods off and see if you can get it to run without them.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to agree with Jake here, you should be able to turn the wheels by hand with no power. If not, it's a mechanical issue that has to be resolved.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

One thing I would consider, since we're suspecting gear bind. Remove the brush plate, and commutator. Try moving the wheels by hand, if they still won't move likely a damaged tooth on one of the other gears. I'd next remove the two screws holding the bearing plate, this will allow an easier time of seeing the gear train. If none of that pans out, I'd suspect a bad quartering. Baby steps, but we should be able to get her on her wheels again.

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Carl, I hadn't considered quartering, but that's a real possibility.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Carl, I hadn't considered quartering, but that's a real possibility.


Hey, I said it first :laugh:

That's why I recommended removing the rods and trying to run it like that.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

OK, I agreed with you, but I forgot you mentioned quartering.  However, you didn't really make it clear you were suggesting removing the rods, so I give you 1/2 credit.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> However, you didn't really make it clear you were suggesting removing the rods, so I give you 1/2 credit.


Really? That's all I get? 

"I would also check the drive rods. One of the wheels might be out of quarter and binding up. Take the rods off and see if you can get it to run without them."

And to be clear, I'm just joking around.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Me too, hopefully between all the humor we can help him solve the problem.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ahem ...

Post #9 ...



tjcruiser said:


> ... and with drive rod components all removed ...
> 
> TJ


Wink wink 

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Ahem ...
> 
> Post #9 ...
> 
> ...


Who are you again?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm not so sure, most times! :laugh:


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

You guys are great, sometimes I wonder who left the door to the loony bin open  JK JK JK.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It was TJ, he's always forgetting the door. 

Ohio027, how are you doing with this issue. Please don't let us distract you from the task at hand. Did you make any progress in finding out why the wheels are locked?


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Wonder if he made and progress?


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi guys,

Sorry to leave you hanging--haven't had a chance to get at it yet (work, work, work...) I'm going to set aside time tomorrow to do the diagnostics you suggested. 

Thanks for all the advice!!


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

Gentlemen,

Success!! Thanks to your advice, the Hiawatha is now fully operational. I first checked the E-unit; the plunger worked just fine, so that was not the problem. I took off the drive rods and the plate covering the gears and started working the wheels slowly. This fixed what must have been a gear misaligment as the wheels began to turn easily. I ran the loco without the body, and slowly it began to function properly. The E-unit cycles as it should, and it runs pretty good. Of course, I busted the lightbulb when I reattached the body--always something.

So now I have a functioning loco, but not enough room to lay the 072 track it requires. Can somebody suggest a loco that will handle 031 curves that can pull the cars in the MTH set? The couplers look like the prewar Lionel box style. 

If there isn't a loco I can use, I guess my set will be up for sale....

Again, thanks everyone for your help!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It should run on 031. It's not that big, that requires more.


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

T-man,

Nope, it won't negotiate the curves on my 031-curved track. The instruction book specifies 072 track; optimistic me hoped it would work on regular O-gauge and just look funny on such a small radius. The engine is actually pretty big. I am going the expand the layout and use some 042 curves on the outside loop. Maybe this will work?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I really can't see that locomotive requiring something as big as O-72 to work. I could understand the whole set if you had the articulated passenger cars, but a locomotive with a short wheel base should be able to do at least an O-42 or maybe O-54 minimum. These ones are quite a bit bigger than the traditional prewar tinplate steamers. What number series are the freight cars from? That might give the prewar guys something to work off of to recommend something that will fit with you cars size wise.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Glad the loco is back up and running, Ohio!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

IMO, the 72" requirement has to be a mistake for that locomotive! It has four drivers, I can't see any reason for that configuration to require that kind of curve.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> IMO, the 72" requirement has to be a mistake for that locomotive! It has four drivers, I can't see any reason for that configuration to require that kind of curve.


Ditto on all the above. I'd be hard pressed to see it needing more that O-36 or possibly 42 curves. In looking at the catalog containing that set, most in the series used O-42 curves from Tinplate Traditions.


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## NYC 5344 (Dec 26, 2012)

Yeah, there's no way that needs O-72. I'm pretty sure the UP Challenger (4-6-6-4) needs a minimum of O-54. My J1-e Hudson even runs on O-42, and its a very large engine (scale vs postwar scale). I would definitely try it on O-42, there is no reason it shouldn't be adequate.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

MTH?, not sure how big that is? Pictures always help. I guess it is always good to read engine specifications before you buy.


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## Ohio027 (Dec 29, 2012)

I can't imagine the loco is any larger than the prewar Lionel Hiawatha or the Lionel remake. I tend to agree with everyone that it will work on 042. I know for sure it won't take 031 curves as that is what is on my layout--for now at any rate. 

Meanwhile, it was a good train day. My MPC-era Illinois Central Geep came--looks good and runs great for little money. Also got my AHM HO-scale Chesapeake and Ohio F-M C class locos (powered and unpowered)--they run great too.


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