# Whats wrong with this layout? (N Scale)



## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

First off a little background on myself. I'm a operating kind of guy. As a former brakeman, dispatcher office operator, Tower Operator I like operation. Not really interested in industrial switching. Necessities are;

1. Double track,
2. Long sidings,
3. Plenty of interlockings,
4. A hump yard,
5. A passenger station,
6. A engine house and facilities,
7. Two levels,
8. Around the wall with accessibility without openings in the layout.

Most of this has been thought of in the attached drawing (left and right side since it is a wide image and the restriction of photo size for attachments.

The yet to be built room will be 10x23' in a un-finished basement with a stone foundation. One wall will be the foundation (open, no layout except for a short portion). The built walls (all wood, no cheap drywall) will have the layout in a 'self' like design. The basement get very humid anytime it rains, especially in the spring (varies from as low as 40% to close to 100%). I will have a dehumidifier for that enclosed room. I'm hoping by somewhat isolating the room on three sides and partially enclosing the ceiling I will have a handle on humidity. There is no issue in the winter other than temperature (varies from 40-45 degrees to close to 80 degrees).

Other than the humidity, am I going to have a issue with 'heat kinks' and/or pull aparts?? Those figures are extremes. Temp. ranges from close to upper 40's to upper 70's. High humidity is usually short lived, except under long rainy periods (mostly in the spring).

I talked to a modeler locally in HO scale and he had problems with pull-aparts & heat kinks. But, that was in HO. Is N more or less prone to this?

My first (real) layout was a 5x7' modified 'L' shaped table in a bedroom. For a 1st (real) layout, my major resign fault was excessive grades, especially for the hump. Damn MicroTrains trucks allowed the cars to literally crash into the bumpers at the ends of the tracks sometimes on to the floor. One excessively sharp curve at the top of the grade caused straight-lining with longer trains due to the grades. I have close to 250 freight & passenger cars all with MT trucks & couplers. My power rooster is 23 freight & passenger (Atlas & Life Like), all diesel. No DCC.

There is a elevated portion that will include a passenger station with siding off either main. No, there is no 'coach yard' as I don't seem to have room for it without actually seeing it in 3d (after the table frame is built and can visualize the look as it is planned now).
The hump & receiving yard includes engine facilities. I changed the location of the facilities a couple of times and as it stands it needs to be change again since I don't like tracks on either side of the receiving yard 'lead'.

The 'squares' on the drawing at 12". Table depth is limited to three feet, but I'm concerned about access along the long wall so I plan hinged cutouts that drop down on that wall and the far right angled corner. I don't want to reduce the depth to 30" since it will 'cram' all of the too close together. It's alot as it is.

(The extreme right side was cut off)


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

In a previous post you mentioned the foundation wall gets damp after it rains. I think I'd address that problem first. They do make products that "seal" and prevent moisture entering.

If you're going to be constructing 3 walls, I'd construct a 4th along that foundation wall. I'd use PT 2x but since it's not load bearing 2x3's will work.

Nice layout.

Jack


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

The previous landlady tried 'painting' the wall with a so called sealant. 20 years later 80% is still there, but the rest has flaked off (below ground level). Compared to other locations of the foundation, it isn't bad. There are two windows in this room, one opens for ventilation (these are 2x2' windows, not those small vents of new houses).
I don't want to block off than much wall, I'm already blocking off the wall on the left side of the drawing (which is more of a problem). I have thought about 'treating' the wall again.

Regarding design, additional industry spurs have not been added yet. That comes last.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The only way to really seal walls like that is from the outside. There are various treatments that either inject it into the ground next to the wall, or actually dig up beside the wall to apply it.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I understand that, but that won't happen. It's a absentee landlords driveway that is too cheap to fix it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Driveway? What does that have to do with water in the basement?


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

One more thing that's often overlooked. Check to see if you have a downspout dumping all the roof water in the area, get extensions so the water is delivered further away.
Also check the grade of the soil, it should be sloping away from the foundation so water runs away as much as possible and not seeps straight down.
I do know the problem you have as I ran 2 dehumidifiers 24/7 in my previous house and should have run 3 or 4. Anything put in the basement was ruined within weeks.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Water off the driveway is draining off in the direction of the house and seeping through the foundation.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Correct. The house's driveway next door is right up to the foundation of my house. Nothing I can do about that. This is the city, not suburbia. 
No downspout. 

To be clear, this is just ground seepage, not runoff, or downspouts. The wall is only slightly damp where it meets the floor. I've lived here for 30+ years, it's really not bad or I would do something different.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If someone else's driveway was causing me a problem, I think I'd be pushing back a little...


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

"Pushing back"???


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn but here's my impression of a lawyer. A house was built on a vacant lot next to my friends place, a real nice house. Nice people moved in. Within a year he started getting water in his basement. The reason was they had built up the grade around the new place. Water was running off and pooling in his yard.
Cliff notes version. He had to file suit against his neighbor who in turn filed suit against the builder. He won.
While this is the US of A and it's your property you can't change or do things on your property so it affects others in a detrimental way. Laws vary state by state so you'll need to check into them. Good Luck

Still a nice looking layout.

Jack


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Sorry, but what does Holiday Inn & new builds have to do with this?
These houses were built on or before 1920. Sue for what?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Holiday Inn was a joke (not a lawyer, but stayed at a Holiday Inn? Commercial)

In that case the people next door modified the gradient of the yard causing the problems (new development) If your house is getting damaged from work done adjacent to your property (i.e. they graded the yard improperly causing damage to your property) You could sue the owner of the house and subsequently the contractor who improperly graded the yard causing the issue. 

Sounds like you've just got some drainage issues between the properties that have been there for a long time. I've seen basement repairs where they basically seal off a box on the inside wall of the basement wherever water is present and create a drain tile along that wall at the floor. The water is allowed to get inside this "box" and drain down into the floor and out through the sump/pump via the drain tile.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Don't watch commercials.

I have a friend who had this done. The only areas where it is close to being bad enough is outside the proposed room area and it is my driveway. The wall of the left of the diagram is such wall which is why I planned on constructing it. There are no windows.

Ok, back to temperature variations.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

With all the snow you get in Buffalo it should be plenty insulated in the winter.
Sort of like an igloo.

That is going to be one nice layout.:thumbsup:


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> With all the snow you get in Buffalo it should be plenty insulated in the winter.
> Sort of like an igloo.


That sounds exactly like a typical misinformed, misguided statement mostly due to the ignorant, attention getting media reporting sensational, so called news.
Spend some time in Syracuse, Watertown and Messena NY (for starters) if you really want to see some snow.

But, the two windows in that room will need some attention.

BTW, Buffalo has been called the "Miami of the north" for years due to moderate temperatures courtesy of Lake Erie.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder and recognize a joke when you see it. 

I lived in Watkins Glen for 12 years, and I've been in Buffalo many times. To try to equate that to Miami is absurd. It gets bitter cold many days in the winter in Buffalo, I've been there a number of times in -10F to -15F temperatures. 100 inches of snow a year is not Miami! Contrast that with the average snowfall in SE-PA at 20 inches/year.


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## Fighterpilot (Mar 16, 2011)

In our subdivision, any driveway poured up to the property line requires a curb which will funnel runoff down the driveway and not off the side onto the neighbors property. Seems this would be a simple and relatively inexpensive way to solve most of the problem. Install a curbing along the side of the driveway adjacent to your property. Most of the runoff would then be sent down the driveway to the street and not off the side and down your wall.

I would call your local county or city code enforcement office to see if any building codes are being violated.
I'd talk to the landlord about the problem and if he does not respond, consider small claims court, most communities have them, where you would not need a lawyer and would only have to pay a small fee to file your complaint. You do have a reasonable chance of correcting your problem.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> With all the snow you get in Buffalo it should be plenty insulated in the winter.
> Sort of like an igloo.
> 
> That is going to be one nice layout.:thumbsup:


This is what I said.


videobruce said:


> That sounds exactly like a typical misinformed, misguided statement mostly due to the ignorant, attention getting media reporting sensational, so called news.
> Spend some time in Syracuse, Watertown and Messena NY (for starters) if you really want to see some snow.
> 
> But, the two windows in that room will need some attention.
> ...


Been there and done that.
I guess you should know, it is balmy t shirt weather all year in Buffalo!:laugh:

Sure Buffalo gets no snow. It is only rated as #11 for the snowiest city.
In 1995 7feet in 5 days is not much! Huh? 
Buffalo only averages a mere 93.6".
I can go back to the 70's with snowfall amounts but I won't. I use to run deicer for the airports all winter. Sure they got no snow But they sure did drink that deicer up quick. 

The Tug Hill Plateau between Watertown and Syracuse get more than 200 inches of snow a year. 
That is because of their elevation. I saw a 12 pointer up there.:thumbsup:
I have been stuck there more then once.

Your right Buffalo don't get _hit. I take back my comment.




gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder and recognize a joke when you see it.
> 
> I lived in Watkins Glen for 12 years, and I've been in Buffalo many times. To try to equate that to Miami is absurd. It gets bitter cold many days in the winter in Buffalo, I've been there a number of times in -10F to -15F temperatures. 100 inches of snow a year is not Miami! Contrast that with the average snowfall in SE-PA at 20 inches/year.



Dam right John! What the ----!

I'm done with this one.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

Man the Comments here are Very Sensitive.
Cold is Cold and Snow is Snow, so who is better off when Nature Calls.
Some places are Better in One Year than Other Years.
Let's Enjoy the Good Years and Help others in there Bad Years.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

What does all this have to do with the original question?


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder and recognize a joke when you see it.
> 
> I lived in Watkins Glen for 12 years, and I've been in Buffalo many times. To try to equate that to Miami is absurd. It gets bitter cold many days in the winter in Buffalo, I've been there a number of times in -10F to -15F temperatures. 100 inches of snow a year is not Miami! Contrast that with the average snowfall in SE-PA at 20 inches/year.


"Been in Buffalo" is alot different than living there for 59 years. I've been to Walkins Glen, but I would never describe the weather there to anyone since I never lived there. It's _*extremely*_ rare to have a below 5 degree day let something below zero.

The term "Miami of the north" I didn't make up. Its' a common expression for years here.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

flyboy2610 said:


> What does all this have to do with the original question?


Absolutely nothing!

Regarding that driveway, it's cracked, a curb wouldn't help. This is a city, not suburbia. The houses and driveways are older than probably anyone here. Even with a new driveway, it probably wouldn't make much difference since as I stated, it is only damp for the most part.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

"Miami of the North" is a tongue in cheek oxymoron. I spent a week there, longest, coldest & most snow-filled week of my life. 

Video, you posed a question, you got several answers. No need to get snippy at those trying to help you.

My 2¢, YMMV.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> I spent a week there, longest, coldest & most snow-filled week of my life.


So? Big deal. Spend a week in Syracuse, Watertown or Massena NY. Then there is always N. Dakota and Minnesota. 
Better that earthquakes, mudslides, forest fires, floods, illegal immigrants & tornadoes.


> No need to get snippy at those trying to help you.


Even when it is OT and went under the assumption that it would be known it was in jest with no 'Smilies' added??

Help, fine, I appreciate all of that, but peanut gallery comments, not so.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

Very Interesting Job You have,
Trains come First, 
so Make Your Basement Water/Air Tight with Air-conditioning, 
other wise your Train parts will Rust.
oops almost forgot, your layout design is Fantastic.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm trying, but you have to understand it's a stone foundation.
I've been in far worse basements (same type of house in the city) and they are alot worse. To a point, I didn't even like going down in those just to look. At least I can walk on the floor in stocking feet and not have black socks when I return upstairs.

I'm hoping by blocking off the rear wall (10') and blocking off the bottom half of the side wall (23') below ground level, I will have a handle on the humidity with the dehumidifier.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

Dig down the outside of Foundations and fill with Concrete mixed with a Sealant.
I got 16 cubic metres worth for 2400USD.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Sure, when are you coming over? I'll supply the shovel. 

(See, when you use Smiles, there is little doubt of mis-interpreting the response)


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

Ask around for an Excavator Guy,
they are about 75USD an Hour total and the Job should take 4 hours to do.
You then could line the wall underground with plastic and fill back in.
Do concrete if can afford.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

flyboy2610 said:


> What does all this have to do with the original question?


The original question as I see it was about his main concern, a water (humidity) problem.

He asked will they pull apart like HO or since they are N they won't?
I don't know I guess time will tell.

As he asked on another forum too, but I guess their answers were not good enough.

I did not know that palm trees were growing in Buffalo now or I wouldn't have added my "peanut gallery comment."hwell:

Straight from the peanut gallery,
I still like the plan.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

About Time you turned Up Big Ed,
Helping is how Trains Helped Us Hey.
Now get to the Root of the Problem and Fix it.
also King Edward - Bruce is a Lady


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

videobruce said:


> Help, fine, I appreciate all of that, but peanut gallery comments, not so.


Hey Bruce, 

Just letting you know that I appreciate your restraint in not letting the off topic stuff escalate. :thumbsup:

We've learned to take big ed with a grain of salt... 

I came up with a very cheap non traditional out of the box treatment for a seeping basement wall. I spent a year digging out a 12'x24' basement...










...and discovered that water would seep through the newely exposed concrete footing when the plants were watered outside. You see the corner just beyond the table. ( This pic was taken just after removing the plywood, so the rest of the grout was still drying up from the poured water.)

So what I did was put up a piece of plywood next to the wall with wooden stakes and filled the approximately 1 1/2" gap between the plywood and the wall with *dry* *acrylic thinset cement* used for setting tile. Then I let the water run outside, and as the water seeped through, it got wicked up by the dry cement and hardened in place like blood clotting into a hard scab. To finish what remained dry and didn't get set up, I simply poured some water in the top of the gap and took off the plywood the next day. 

Now I can flood the plants and no water comes in! 

Greg


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

big ed said:


> The original question as I see it was about his main concern, a water (humidity) problem.
> 
> He asked will they pull apart like HO or since they are N they won't?
> I don't know I guess time will tell.
> ...


This is what I said Greg.
If that is off topic what the heck is yours?

Who is "we" that learned to take me with a grain of salt?

Do you know the meaning of what you just said?

I guess you being a mod can get away with insults?
Maybe you have a different definition of that phrase then I do.


So tell me who is "we" your left hand and your right hand?


 


choo choo said:


> Hey Bruce,
> 
> Just letting you know that I appreciate your restraint in not letting the off topic stuff escalate. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey Ed, 

I'm just trying to cut the new guy a little slack. 
The topic was layouts and damp basements. 

Greg


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Let's all play nice, guys ... OK??? Please?

TJ


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

*photos*

I'm not digging up my basement and putting in a sump pump. I have a damp basement, not standing water or a stream. 
I plan on enclosing the room as much as possible and see how the humidity situation is then without a humidifier.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here are three. The blue water treatment paint (what's left of it) on that long north wall was not my doing. That wall will be blocked off up to below those windows which is ground level. That wall is where the next-doors driveway buts up against. 
The wood rack will be moved. 
The two support columns will be the boundary of the south wall (at the bottom of the drawing).
The far (west, rear yard) wall will be blocked off completely.

Would it be beneficial to 'wrap' the 'half height' north wall with plastic wrap to keep moisture from soaking into the joists & plywood considering the lack of air flow since only one (east) end will be open?
I plan on six inches between the foundation and the 2x4's with both walls.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey Bruce, 

The pics help a lot... and your basement looks a *lot *better than it sounded. As far as giving advice on closing off subterranean walls with framing, that's *way* above my pay grade. 

What you might consider doing is an internet search. Whenever I want to do something and don't know which way to go, I do a word search. There are literally millions of people who are highly experienced and who have taken the time to share useful information on how to do just about *anything*.  

Greg


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I figured I might of made it worse than it was. I have been in many basements in the city that I shuttered even going down into. Dingy and damp and that was in dry weather. You couldn't pay me to live there.

I have realized the only real solution is to dig down 4 1/2 feet, seal the area with something to make it water tight and fill it back in. 
I have thought about this for some time. 

Maybe big ed will come, over since he has so much input here and start digging. :laugh:

(BTW, thanks Mods for deleting his latest 'attack'.)


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you're going to finish that area, I'd leave about 8" behind the walls and ventilate that area with forced air. I did that in my previous house and it worked out well.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

videobruce said:


> I have realized the only real solution is to dig down 4 1/2 feet, seal the area with something to make it water tight and fill it back in.
> I have thought about this for some time.


You should think some more as you're just putting lipstick on a pig. Hiding the problem rather than eliminating it.
You want a dry basement? Install French drains. Anything less is just a band-aid.
My 2¢.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I was planning a 6" gap between the foundation and the built wall. I wouldn't even consider placing wood directly up against a foundation unless it was _*really*_ dry.

As far as a "French drain", that's out of the question. I realize that would be ideal, but it won't happen. Too many external issues to contend with, some out of my control. The house has survived 93 years as it is now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, while french drains and exterior waterproofing is the real fix, I sense that the $10,000-15,000 to dig up all the way to the foundation and install all of that isn't really practical!


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I can't imaging it would be anything close to that unless one is including the grounds, front & back.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Digging down to the foundation and laying a french drain? I suggest you price it.


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## MacDaddy55 (Aug 19, 2008)

*Way to Go Beefalo!!*



videobruce said:


> That sounds exactly like a typical misinformed, misguided statement mostly due to the ignorant, attention getting media reporting sensational, so called news.
> Spend some time in Syracuse, Watertown and Messena NY (for starters) if you really want to see some snow.
> 
> But, the two windows in that room will need some attention.
> ...


Hey Video, Just saw this intense action on your basement situation and just wanted to give you a thumbs up on your layout and BS(thats basement:laugh situation. Our basement looks similar to yours without the powder blue seal coat and I'd run a dehumidifier at all times. The house is old and you will get residule moisture/dampness from the depth of your foundation. We have an ancient cistern at one end of the basement and it acts as a airconditioner in the summer. We had our original train layout down there and after noticing that the grass paper was bubbling we moved it out to the garage. And thats with a dehumidifier. I am originally from Minetto NY and you got it right...Buffalo gets all the press but WE get all the SNOW!!! I've been in the Midwest for 25 yrs and nothing can compare to a lake affect NY snow storm!! Oh..as I'm a Giants fan(Hate the Jets) are you a Bills Fan(or as my brother used to say The Beefalo Bills):laugh: Again good luck with the basement and nice layout!!


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Ah....could I ask a question that might help? Do you have a sump and sump pump in that basement? I bought a used dehumidifier a while back; I've parked it over the sump in my current basement with the lil bucket removed so it drips right into the sump. Kentucky is pretty humid much of the year, but my basement stays bone-dry. It's a lot cheaper than installing anything.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Okay---I overlooked Mac's comments!


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

No on the sump pump, no on being a Bills fan, but yes on a dehumidifier.

After spending much time sealing up numerous leaks from the back yard, my driveway and the neighbors driveway, I can say just about all the seepage has been taken care of. The basement is much dryer than before even w/o the dehumidifier. Humidity is averaging 60-70% in mostly wet weather (with the dehumidifier off) this fall (somewhat unusual). I also had the rear driveway replaced which helped one area and the side step replaced which (I don't know why) eliminated seepage in that area. The neighbors side I filled in all the areas where water was noticed. Even after a heavy rain, there is no ingress (so far).

The room is finished with way too many days spend engineering the ceiling pieces (I used Eucaboard since 1/4" plywood wasn't available and I didn't want a suspended ceiling due to clearances).


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I didn't want a suspended ceiling (before anyone asks) due to lack of clearance with the furnace ducts. So I engineered my version of a 'suspended' ceiling using Eucaboard. I wanted to use 1/4" plywood, but the only thing available was double sided finished which would be a waste.
The carpet on the lower half is for sound deadening. Unfortunately, it isn't doing as much as I hoped. The last pic shows the worst area to get covered. That turned out better than I expected.

That 'line' around the walls is the approximate table height. Some of the ceiling 'panels' were designed to be accessed for wiring if needed.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The room looks great, big difference from your other pictures.:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

WOW, must different than when you started!  Looks like you've gotten the water under control.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Great improvement to the basement / man cave. Nice work. Enjoy it!

TJ


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

WOW now that is a big improvement. Good work. Your train room will be much more comfortable for you and your visitors now.

Massey


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I covered the plywood 'shelve' along the outer wall with Eucaboard for a smooth finish and painted it light blue to match the walls. I also pointed the bottom inch of plywood below the carpet gray to match the floor.

The temperature has been averaging 60 with a outside temp. average of 50 (+ or -). The humidity averages 60% (55-65%) without the humidifier running.

Right now I'm unsure of how to support the layout. Legs or a truss structure along the walls.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

*support table finished, track plan laid out in full scale*

I completed the support and cut the plywood table top. I've been working on the track plan, fine tuning it.
I haven't cut the plywood for the 2nd level or cut the foamboard yet.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I updated my design somewhat. I laid out the plan on paper full size on the table along with Peco templates and fine tuned it to work.

What I don't show is the passenger station and yard as I have run into a problem of space. At the far right, that straight stretch of track on an angle is where it will go. That is elevated. I was originally planning on accessing it from the left (which is from the top of the drawing, but if I do, I have no switching lead forcing me to use the main. If I use the other end, I have my lead (it's drawn in as a siding), but it bars me from using the area away from the freight yard. I loose alot of storage space.

Also, I do not show a engine house, car shop & caboose storage tracks to the left of the hump. The cab track & car shop aren't a big deal, but the engine facility is. I don't know if I should access if from the left or the right off that curved lead from the five track receiving/departure yard.

I also didn't show industrial spurs around the perimeter of the layout as these can be added anytime.

Input please. (there are three attachments)


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## Conductorjoe (Dec 1, 2011)

Im not real good at plans for others since I dont even follow my own plans sometimes  , but the room and benchwork look great :thumbsup:


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

The room was a challenge, still with one issue that I need to fix (but don't want to).
The first ceiling section was cut wrong.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

"N scale is the most underrated scale of all. The only scale that lets have a large operation without taking up a basement or a garage."

Bruce,

I think you've broken your own rule! That layout is huge (for N), with lots of exciting track complexity and action. Very nice progress!

TJ


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

That room is less than 1/4 of my basement (9'x19'). It was a unused area. 
No, I didn't break my statement.

It surely isn't wide. It is long, but not terrible so. Most layouts I have seen here and elsewhere I can sum it up with one word: boring. I see boredom in minutes of 'operation' with many of these. Been there, done that with my 1st (real) layout. Double track, twice around w/ hump on a 5'x7' table in a 10'x10' spare room 13 years ago. I was bored after 15 minutes.


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

Wow, Bruce nothing looks boring on this one :thumbsup: This will be some layout, looking forward to updates.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

To clarify some points;

1. The minimum radius is now *15"* which I feel isn't that bad (originally it was 13"), maximum is 36",

2. All mainline turnouts are Peco 'long' with one 'medium' x-over on the 'S' curve to the left of the yard and two 'mediums' for sidings going into a curve (only one side of the route is on a curve),

3. I have no 'long' (86') autorack's or TTX's, only full length passenger cars,

4. The three main line sidings are 11' in length, the receiving yard averages 10' and the class yard averages 6' in lengths,

5. The only 'short' turnouts are in the 'bowl' for the two outer tracks on each side. This configuration might be changed as I'm not crazy about using a 3-way.

Elsewhere I was criticized for not having enough room for scenery. Someone else used the terms "Ragu & Prego". 
For the 1st comment, I measured the open areas and found one is 2x5' and the other is 1.5x3'. I really don't see a problem here as I'm not modeling a city, steel plant or a lake front dock.
As far as the 2nd comment, I have seen far worse.

Still looking for input.


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