# AF 336 Restoration



## kvlazer22

I started tearing down the 336 last night and I gathered a little list of questions pertaining to the Northern.


What is the finish on the handrails? I don't know if mine are tarnished/corroded but the finish is very rough and a dull gun metal color.
What's the deal with the brush springs? Both the brush springs were a combination of two springs intertwined. The brushes did measure 5/16" so yes, they need replacing. However, is the double spring a band-aide for the worn brushes of is that a large motor thing?
I am not familiar with how the whistle operates. Is it triggered when the reverse unit is in the neural position?

P.S. I cleaned the body and it looks absolutely amazing!


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## mopac

I thought the body might clean up. You got a deal.
Not sure what the deal is with double springs. I have
not had my large motor apart yet.


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## AmFlyer

To operate the whistle you will need an Air Chime Whistle controller. It is a black button with either a metal or cardboard tube mounted to the top of the button. The tube contains a fancy vibrator. The controller must be wired between the transformer and the track.
The handrails are just shiny metal. They look pretty close in the picture. There should only be one spring in each brush tube.


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## AmFlyer

Here is a repost of two of my Like New condition Northerns. The handrails from the factory are bare metal but not highly polished. Definitely not gunmetal in color


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## kvlazer22

That's what I figured. There was carbon dust all over the inside, she looked like she was driven pretty hard!


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## Chuck7612

I have an air chime whistle activator that worked when I last tested it a couple years ago. I don't need it and plan to put it on ebay. But I would be happy to sell it to you for cheap. If interested, you can email me at [email protected].


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## alaft61ri

Question with these 4 8 4 or 4 8 2 do u have to have the wide track.

Al


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## AmFlyer

All engines made by Gilbert, including the 4-8-4 Northern run on the standard 20" track radius. In these modern times that old 20"radius track is sometimes called 19" radius.


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## alaft61ri

Thankyou i was just wondering if they need the wide curve because of all the wheels going around curves. Thanks again 

Al


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## mopac

I have started buying the wide curves. They will run on original Gilbert track but you
can tell they would rather have wider curves. I bought 4 wide curves today. That
will give me 27 pieces. I would like 36 pieces. They are not all over the place. They
just pop up every once in a while. I watch ebay a lot. Twice I ran across sellers with brand new
wide curves. They were too rich for me. 10 bucks a piece. I passed. They did sell. I am 
willing to pay 4.50 to 5.00 each piece for decent condition.. Takes 12 to make a circle.
Passenger cars look better on the wide curves also.

The northerns have only 2 driver wheels with flanges on each side. The 2 middle drivers are
what is called blind drivers (no flanges).


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## AmFlyer

They look better on wider curves but they do not need wider curves to run correctly.


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## AmFlyer

Here are a couple of pictures you may find interesting. The first picture I took on a layout using all Gilbert 20” radius track. The significance of the picture to me is I received those two engines as Christmas gifts 60 years apart, and they both run on the same layout! The Hudson is from my first train set.
In any event even the 23” long 4-6-6-4 Challenger will run fine on 20” radius track even if it looks awkward.
The second picture is from overhead of the Challenger on a 30” radius curve. Even at that radius it still has some overhang.


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## alaft61ri

Thats on my wish list thats why i asked about the 4 8 4 or 4 8 2 how they run on mormal track curve. 

Thanks Al


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## kvlazer22

Here is a couple pics of the body all cleaned up...she looks great! I was amazed of the grime that came off.


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## AmFlyer

It sure cleaned up well!


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## kvlazer22

Does anyone use an ultrasonic cleaner to clean their parts? These things will change your life...I promise. For those who aren't familiar, ultrasonic cleaning is the process of using ultrasound to agitate a fluid. These sound waves create scrubbing actions that get in the smallest of gaps and crevices. When combining distilled water and a light dish detergent, such as Dawn, an Ultrasonic Cleaner is a great option for really getting down into those hard to reach areas of any American Flyer part safely.


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## AmFlyer

I tried putting an armature in my wife's ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, I received clear direction from her that was not an acceptable use of her cleaner. The one you have is designed for cleaning our kind of parts.


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## kvlazer22

This one is made by Hornady, which is meant to clean bullets. It is amazing how it pulls dirt out of every crevice.


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## kvlazer22

Some pics of the pre-cleaned innards....


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## flyernut

Nice loco and tender.


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## flyernut

kvlazer22 said:


> Does anyone use an ultrasonic cleaner to clean their parts? These things will change your life...I promise. For those who aren't familiar, ultrasonic cleaning is the process of using ultrasound to agitate a fluid. These sound waves create scrubbing actions that get in the smallest of gaps and crevices. When combining distilled water and a light dish detergent, such as Dawn, an Ultrasonic Cleaner is a great option for really getting down into those hard to reach areas of any American Flyer part safely.
> 
> View attachment 530472


One of my local train shops uses a ultra-sonic cleaner when they do repairs..Before I started doing my own repairs, I took a chassis to them, and the repair guy, not the owner, showed me how well those cleaners work, it's amazing.


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## AmFlyerFan

That's a really interesting idea. I didn't know you could use dawn in those ultrasonic cleaners.
How long do you agitate your parts?


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## kvlazer22

AmFlyerFan said:


> How long do you agitate your parts?


I run it for 5 minutes. Only problem is as soon as the wife hears that buzzing I have to do her rings next.


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## AmFlyer

Better to clean them for her than let her take them to the jewelry store for their free cleaning. No good ever comes from a wife's visit to the jewelry store.


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## flyernut

Lol, my wife doesn't mind too much of things that shouldn't be in the wrong place. I just bought a new aluminum radiator for my Nova, and a set of antique wires,(new repos), for my 39 Chevy. Both items are in the dining room,lol..


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## AmFlyer

I could leave some trains in the DR as long as we were not getting visitors. A radiator would not be acceptable under any circumstances.


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> I could leave some trains in the DR as long as we were not getting visitors. A radiator would not be acceptable under any circumstances.


But...But...But..it's in the box..


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## AFGP9

Speaking of putting automotive things in the house, I once had a house that had sliding glass doors level with my carport floor. At the time my wife was off visiting her daughter in another state. I had just pulled the 396 out of my '69 SS Nova and had it sitting on a wooden engine crate that GM ships new engines on. Since I was a parts mgr., I saved several of those and put casters on them. Since this engine was sitting near the sliding doors and I wasn't in my garage but under the car port, I simply rolled the engine into the house through those doors. Normally I would have used the garage but at that time there was a torn down drag car scattered all over. 
The work I needed to do on the 396 would not have taken long but there was a thunderstorm closing in which is why I thought of pushing the engine in. Yes I could have tarped it but hey there was this tiled dinning room floor just past those sliding sliding glass doors and the wife wasn't due home for another day. Can anybody guess what happened? Yes she came home early!! Yikes!! 
She was a soft speaking RN but at that time she was anything but soft speaking!! 

Kenny


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## AmFlyerFan

We too had a ground level patio door setup. More then once a motorcycle came in from the cold. For a bit.
I had a choice, domestic bliss or bachelorhood. After 30 years of marriage I sometimes wonder about my choice...


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## AFGP9

AmFlyerFan that was too funny! I only rolled my Harley in through those doors once. Actually I only got as far as the front wheel and was "asked" to stop and was asked what I thought I was doing. 

Kenny


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## AmFlyer

Funny incidents you all have had! I quit collecting and repairing collectable cars 20 years ago. Now I just look at them on the televised auctions. All my cars are under warranty so no physical work is required on my part. The dealer will even pick them up at the house if I ask.
The only thing I roll into the house through the doors is my Christmas train layout. My wife even helps.


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## AmFlyerFan

AmFlyer said:


> Funny incidents you all have had! I quit collecting and repairing collectable cars 20 years ago. Now I just look at them on the televised auctions. All my cars are under warranty so no physical work is required on my part. The dealer will even pick them up at the house if I ask.
> The only thing I roll into the house through the doors is my Christmas train layout. My wife even helps.





AmFlyer said:


> Funny incidents you all have had! I quit collecting and repairing collectable cars 20 years ago. Now I just look at them on the televised auctions. All my cars are under warranty so no physical work is required on my part. The dealer will even pick them up at the house if I ask.
> The only thing I roll into the house through the doors is my Christmas train layout. My wife even helps.



My wife has gotten "on board" with my trains. She even liked it around the tree at X-mas. She had never seen that b4. My layout (not fastened down) has moved from the living room, to the sun porch, to an upstairs bedroom where it will stay until visitors come (not any time soon). I'm looking for a free ping pong tabletop (free on Craig'sList) for a more permanent setup and knockdown.
She has a ton of Dept.56 buildings I can use. She never sets them all up.


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## kvlazer22

Any tips on a noisy motor? I ripped this thing apart, fixed sticky wheels, replaced brushes/springs, J-B Welded the loose armature bushing on the brush bracket assembly, meticulously cleaned, greased, and oiled, and yet it still seems to be a little noisy. It may be my virgin American Flyer ears but it seems noisy.


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## mopac

No help here. Sounds like you have done all you can. Make sure you have plenty of grease on the drive gears
and the screw gear on end of armature. Also oil on the oil wick, its in the brush cap. Maybe just run it some to
wear in after rebuild. Is it a gear noise?


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## kvlazer22

I am pretty sure it is a gear noise. It's definitely not rubbing or grinding anywhere.


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## flyernut

Remove and/or add shims.. This will help...Also try another armature...


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## kvlazer22

flyernut said:


> Remove and/or add shims.. This will help...Also try another armature...


What does adding shims accomplish? By shims you mean mean armature washers?


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## AmFlyer

I was about to suggest the same thing. Changing the shims on the armature shaft can slightly change the engagement of the worm gear and the sector gear. It will not however, change the depth of the engagement which is the more likely contributor to the noise. This is why flyernut suggested swapping armatures. A different armature may be quieter because of the gear wear patterns. The simpler answer may turn out to be using a heavier grease on the gears. That is how I used to quiet down some of the old Gilbert HO diesels.


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## flyernut

kvlazer22 said:


> What does adding shims accomplish? By shims you mean mean armature washers?


They actually are shims, not washers.You can get them by the set, different thicknesses are included. I can't explain it any better than what AmFlyer said. He's a true genius on our forum, glad we have him.


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## AmFlyer

Perhaps I have just spent too much of my life playing with toy trains.


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## kvlazer22

You are talking about the "thing" circled in red?


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## AmFlyer

Yes, that is it. It may be necessary to add one on the the oil slinger side as well. Try a couple of variations and see if it quiets down.


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## kvlazer22

Ok, perfect! I have several different widths of those...I will try it out. Thanks again for the help guys!


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## kvlazer22

Ok...it is fixed! However, there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.....hahahah. My testing stand (foam board insulation) amplitudes sound like no other! I realized it after I pressed down on the chassis and all the noise went away. I then held the chassis in my hand and it sounds like a Tesla going down the road with a smoke box for an exhaust pipe! I am chalking this one up to a little acronym we use in the IT world..... PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard). I still played with different width armature washers and really dialed her in.


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## AmFlyer

Nothing like an easy fix.


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## cramden

Glad you got it sorted out. Your PEBCAK reminds me of what I was told when I first started turning wrenches for a living, " It's not the tool , but the operator."


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## kvlazer22

My first attempt at reattaching a step was a success.

1. Grinded the broken area with a Dremel sanding disk
2. Attached the step with J-B Weld
3. Airbrushed Henning's Primer
4. Airbrushed Rust-Oleum 7777502 Black Satin
5. Airbrushed Model Master Flat Clear Laquer


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## mopac

That looks great. Good job.


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## AmFlyerFan

Like Mo-Pac said, looks great!
Half of the battle & half of the fun is playing/fixing these old toys. It's kept me out of trouble this winter (sorta).


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## kvlazer22

Thanks. I must say, this step was pretty difficult to attach since there really isn't a base to it. I thinned the J-B Weld with acetone to get it to flow so I could clean up the excess. After 24 hours I replied another non-thinned coat that would fill in the crevices. I had to be REALLY careful to not even breath around it for the first coat. It was hard for me to not go check on it every hour. I learned that lesson after hour one into the curing process when I knocked it off. Below is my professional step leveler....


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## AmFlyer

The finished result is great.


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## alaft61ri

cramden said:


> Glad you got it sorted out. Your PEBCAK reminds me of what I was told when I first started turning wrenches for a living, " It's not the tool , but the operator."


Nice job good work

Al


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## kvlazer22

I got around to wiring up the tender and motor tonight. Whoever wired up the motor last didn't follow the Gilbert diagram. I took it apart and used the brushes on top and field on the bottom setup. I also didn't like the length of the wires in the boiler so I trimmed them up a bit. I was all excited to put the tender body back on until I remembered the grab bars need to be installed first. I am missing a couple and have to wait on an order from Port Lines.

BEFORE.....



















AFTER...


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## flyernut

It appears the e-unit is in backwards. It should face towards the front, and the air chime guts should be at the back end of the tender.


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## kvlazer22

flyernut said:


> It appears the e-unit is in backwards. It should face towards the front, and the air chime guts should be at the back end of the tender.


Grrrrr, I fought with this when I was putting it back together. I came to the conclusion that I should put it back the way it came. I should have related the bad wiring on the motor to the wrong setup in the tender.

On another note, did you know Gilbert gives you holes to mount the reverse unit and speaker in any direction? Hahahah


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## mopac

Good spot flyernut. It is indeed backwards. That would make it hard for me to follow a wiring diagram. I kept the parts but I removed the whistle parts in my 336. Not fond of the sound and the whistle was in the way to install new harness. The more I look at the pic maybe my
E unit faces backwards. Whistle definitely at rear. In the pic whistle not in the way of a new harness.


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## kvlazer22

My final determination to stick with the reverse unit backwards was because of the 12" wire harness. There would be a lot of excess wire if it was facing forwards.



mopac said:


> That would make it hard for me to follow a wiring diagram. I kept the parts but I removed the whistle parts in my 336.


Yes, that made my brain hurt trying to map the wires. I also didn't connect the whistle, I screwed it down but didn't wire it.


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## kvlazer22

I did some poking around eBay and I found that pretty much all the K335's and 336's have the reverse unit facing the rear of the tender. I did not find one 332 that had it facing to the rear.


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## flyernut

#332AC and K335 4-8-4's have the e-unit facing forwards, the 336 has the e-unit facing backwards, like in the pictures..I'll have to check my Northerns.


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## kvlazer22

mopac said:


> Good spot flyernut. It is indeed backwards. That would make it hard for me to follow a wiring diagram.


Mo-Pac, I put together a wiring diagram for the rear facing reverse unit...

#336 Tender Wiring - Rear Facing Reverse Unit


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## mopac

Thanks, that wll help.
I did save it to my favorites


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## kvlazer22

I am on the home stretch now with this 336 restoration. My replacement parts from Port Lines will be here tomorrow and after my 24 hour COVID package quarantine I will have everything I need to polish her off.

My biggest feat diving into the American Flyer world has been paint options. I have been blasting this forum with paint questions and I can finally say….I found the perfect formula for refreshing old paint! I stole a chapter out of my plastic modeling book and used my favorite black paint, Tamiya TS-14. This paint is thin, sprays out of an airbrush beautifully, and hardens like a rock in under 10 minutes. This paint comes in a spray can and in order to use it in my airbrush I "degass" it. I spray the paint through a straw into a mixing jar. I then let the paint sit for around 8 hours with the cap loosely placed to let the gases escape. Without letting it breath you could potentially create a mini paint bomb with the build up of aerosol gases. I heavily thin it with a ratio of 40% paint to 60% Tamiya Lacquer Thinner. Below is an example of how the paint looks and I think it blends with the old paint beautifully. I also repainted the white stripes by masking them off and spraying them with an airbrush.


























I came up with a method for the front markers that I love. I sanded out the recesses until the metal was shiny. I then painted them with Tamiya Clear Green X-25. This paint is very translucent so when painted over the shiny metal it almost looks like reflectors in a headlight.


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## mopac

WOW!!! She is looking great. Nice job. Your green markers do look good. And of coarse the
white stripe. You do have a skill. It will be a thing of beauty when done and all back together.
I paid a bundle for my 336 but it did not need all the work you have done. Where did you get
the black and green paint from. I have some green jewels to put on my 336 but I like your
green paint.


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## kvlazer22

mopac said:


> WOW!!! She is looking great. Nice job. Your green markers do look good. And of coarse the
> white stripe. You do have a skill. It will be a thing of beauty when done and all back together.
> I paid a bundle for my 336 but it did not need all the work you have done. Where did you get
> the black and green paint from. I have some green jewels to put on my 336 but I like your
> green paint.


Thanks!

The paint I get is from either Amazon or eBay. If you can wait, which I know you can't , the cheapest place for the green paint is eBay but it comes from Taiwan, so it's anyone's guess on those shipping times.

*Green Paint: Tamiya - Clear Green X-25*

Cheapest: Click Here (eBay) - From Taiwan
Amazon: Click Here

*Black Paint: Tamiya TS-14*

Cheapest: Click Here (eBay) - From US
Amazon: Click Here


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## AmFlyerFan

It's looking really good!
Homer T.


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## mopac

I think the black paint looks good. Not too glossy and not too flat.


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## AmFlyer

It is looking good. I will be nice to see it running again.


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## kvlazer22

I don't understand the concept behind the 5th wire. Could someone explain the need for it? I dislike the idea of the permanent connection between the tender and engine. I remedied this by using 2.8mm spade connectors as a quick disconnect.


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## mopac

I think the 5th wire is a pain also. Here is what it does. The headlight and smoke unit wll be powered in the neutral position. A 4 wire only powers headlight and smoke unit in forward or reverse position. Not that big of deal. I don't leave my engines in neutral position. Watch your wiring. It is different between 4 and 5 wire. On a 5 wire, if you don't hook up the 5th wire, you will not have headlight or smoke. I put a disconnect on my 5th wire on my 336 also.


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## kvlazer22

mopac said:


> The headlight and smoke unit will be powered in the neutral position.



Ahhhhh....neutral. That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## mopac

AF started the 5 wire in 1953. The inside of smokestack was painted white and AF called it
glowing smokestack. And they started using the red plastic smoke tube out of smoke unit.
My 336 really glows. Kinda cool.

The headlight lights the red tube and it reflects off the white paint and smokestack glows red.


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## kvlazer22

I repainted the inside of my smoke stack and had to buy another red smoke tube. Mine was melted to the the side of the smoke stack and in the removal process it ripped off a bunch of the original white paint.


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## mopac

That should work. Before 1953, the smoke tubes were brass.


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## kvlazer22

I debated about painting it black and throwing in a brass tube but I decided to keep it original.


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## mopac

I think older locos could glow with the white paint and red smoke tubes.
At one time I thought about making all my locos 4 wire. So I could just
unplug the tender. LOL, still might. The quick disconnect works.


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## kvlazer22

mopac said:


> At one time I thought about making all my locos 4 wire. So I could just
> unplug the tender. LOL, still might.


Mark my word! This is my last 5 wire...hahah


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## AmFlyerFan

A couple of months ago, I added a smoke unit to my 'June 1950' 307 from my spare parts. I had everything but the short stroke piston lever. At that time I painted the inside of the stack white and added a red tube. It turned out well. I too like that effect.


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## AmFlyer

Gilbert steam engines, unlike most other manufacturers have track power pickup only from the tender wheels. In the prewar 3/16th scale engines that was no problem because there was no smoke and the chugger was in the tender if one was present. Post war in 1946 and 1947 there was still no issue because the smoke and Choo Choo unit was in the tender, of course the smoke tube had to be separately disconnected to separate the engine and tender. Beginning in 1948 the smoke unit had to be powered in the engine with the reverse unit in the tender. Gilbert chose to use only 4 wires (less cost) so to power the smoke unit it was wired in parallel with the field. Not the ideal way but it worked. Had Gilbert chosen to separately power the smoke unit back in 1948 they would likely have designed a 5 pin plug rather than the 4 pin.
To improve smoke production and headlight brightness Gilbert added a 5th wire and revised the remaining 4 connections. This allowed the smoke unit to be powered directly from the tender pickups at all times.


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## flyernut

Some of you might remember last year or so I was making a small 5th wire harness that you could plug directly into the back of the female connector.. There really wasn't much of a interest so I quit making them.. I do have several left over from that time.


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## kvlazer22

Well, it's official....my first American Flyer Restoration is complete! I couldn't be happier with it! I want to thank everyone on this forum, your knowledge is invaluable and without you guys I couldn't have pulled it together. I will upload some more pictures soon. It's time for some celebration drinks!


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## alaft61ri

Looks really nice. Cant wait to see more pictures.


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## mopac

WOW!!! She looks like new. Very nice. Good job. Congrats on that beauty. Enjoy, but stay safe, Worth all the effort.


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## AmFlyer

Fantastic!


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

kvlazer22 said:


> Well, it's official....my first American Flyer Restoration is complete! I couldn't be happier with it! I want to thank everyone on this forum, your knowledge is invaluable and without you guys I couldn't have pulled it together. I will upload some more pictures soon. It's time for some celebration drinks!
> 
> View attachment 541241


Nice job!


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## kvlazer22

Guys, am I missing something here? Was there ever a Northern with the number #21069? It shows it in the picture as #336 but refers to it as a #21069. I don't see it in the Greenberg's Guide.


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## AmFlyer

I never noticed that before! Gilbert did not use the number 21069 for any products. It should have read 21039.


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## kvlazer22

I finally got around to writing up the restoration process of this #336. Hope you guys enjoy!

American Flyer #366 Restoration: Introduction


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## flyernut

kvlazer22 said:


> I finally got around to writing up the restoration process of this #336. Hope you guys enjoy!
> 
> American Flyer #366 Restoration: Introduction


I quit doing restorations for myself and especially for customers..I did 2 restorations for a customer, a 320 and a 300 Atlantic. You name it, I did it to both of these engines..I had many, many hours on these units, and they were drop-dead beautiful when done and ran as new..I even delivered them over 200 miles round trip.I got to this jokers store, I showed him how they ran, he took them off the track, and berated me for 15 minutes, screaming at me for "ruining" his trains.. Did I mention when he dropped off the trains, they came in 1 big box, nothing but parts, and missing parts....Never again......unless you give me a one hundred dollar bill just for starters.... Your engine looks beautiful.......


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## alaft61ri

What a jerk i would of took them back and tell him to come and get them if that was me and you did that i would be happy as a pig in sh t. I would of gave you gas money also some people are so ungrateful. I dont blame for not doing it anymore


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## AFGP9

kvlazer22 said:


> Does anyone use an ultrasonic cleaner to clean their parts? These things will change your life...I promise. For those who aren't familiar, ultrasonic cleaning is the process of using ultrasound to agitate a fluid. These sound waves create scrubbing actions that get in the smallest of gaps and crevices. When combining distilled water and a light dish detergent, such as Dawn, an Ultrasonic Cleaner is a great option for really getting down into those hard to reach areas of any American Flyer part safely.
> 
> View attachment 530472


Yes I have used an ultrasonic cleaner. When I lived in Arizona I owned a car radiator shop. I had a large sonic cleaner but I also had a basket for small parts like carburetors and such. Those Ultrasonic cleaners do a fantastic cleaning as your engine shows. I put what I thought was a beyond hope Lionel engine shell in the tank. It came out looking like a new casting. One of my customers saw it on my desk and was soon the proud owner. 

Kenny


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## AFGP9

mopac said:


> WOW!!! She is looking great. Nice job. Your green markers do look good. And of coarse the
> white stripe. You do have a skill. It will be a thing of beauty when done and all back together.
> I paid a bundle for my 336 but it did not need all the work you have done. Where did you get
> the black and green paint from. I have some green jewels to put on my 336 but I like your
> green paint.


Mopac once upon a time Hobby Lobby had that line of paint. I haven't been in a Hobby Lobby in over a year so I don't know if they still have it. 

Kenny


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## AFGP9

kvlazer22, you did a fantastic restoration! 

Kenny


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