# Thoughts on the Lionel Vol II catalog



## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, they peaked my interest. The 2-8-0 steamers is the only wheel arrangement I don't have for steam engines. I've been going smaller for my steam engines purchases of late. Maine Central or NYC? 

Also like the B&M wood sided passenger cars but 400 retail for two!!!! I know going price will be around 350 but still

So no pre-orders for me. been burned to many times with defective product or bad paint jobs from Lionel. I'll wait until they hit the streets and the reviews.

Thoughts????


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I agree $400 is steep for two plastic passenger cars. Charles Ro near you will probably have them for $320 as a pre-order, as you likely know. Will wait and look at the whole catalog, but I'm not buying much at this point in life. Addition of the MTH tooling adds to the already substantial variety of products Lionel offers, so that's a good thing.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

MTH tooling on the woodsided passenger cars, will they be done in the MTH factory? From what I understand, tooling can't be moved from factory to factory.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Charles Ro may offer the cars for less but Lionel has them MAPed for 10% off or $360 in this case. I know RO sometimes has lower than MAPed prices. They did on the E7s. Not many other dealers do that though.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was happy to hear about Strasburg #90 until I saw the price!


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Charles Ro may offer the cars for less but Lionel has them MAPed for 10% off or $360 in this case. I know RO sometimes has lower than MAPed prices. They did on the E7s. Not many other dealers do that though.
> 
> Pete


Really doesn't matter what CharlesRo offers them at. Being a Masshole, they would charge tax, off setting any discount.

Check out this slick video. Wish they would put this much effort in the Quality.


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## pennwest (Sep 21, 2015)

If this engine is all new tooling, why did they screw up the drivers so badly? Compare the prototype image at 1:27 in the above video to the model image at 1:53. The model drivers are way too small and WAY too widely spaced. Maybe they figured that since people didn't care about driver spacing on their PRR H9/H10/whatever, they won't care on this model either. Different price point though. I'm sure people will gush over this engine, as long as they don't look too closely at the prototype.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Here's my post from another forum...

Lionel has never been shy about bumping prices. But these are absolutely ridiculous. Ironically, I can appreciate "some" of the price increases being attributed to the crazy situation with shipping containers right now, since the importers are taking it in the teeth currently. But there really does come a time when pushing the price envelope too drastically will force buyers to turn away. And I think we're now there. Perhaps not for everyone to bag it, but many will. Or they'll just buy on the secondary market.

One of the most notable metrics of price absurdity is Lionel's $200 MSRP for EACH woodside passenger car... reportedly the same product as that offered over the years by MTH, and whose tooling was recently purchased by Lionel. I recall the ones I purchased several years ago had a street price of $70 per car -- discounted from an $80-$90 MSRP. The most recent MTH offerings carried a $110 MSRP, and dealers sold them for approx. $90 each.

Nicholas Smith Trains ran a "special run" Strasburg RR 5-pack, which they're selling for $450. Simple math will tell you that's $90 per car. I'm gonna guess with Lionel's $400 MSRP for a 2-pack of their similar/identical offering, dealers will be selling the 2-packs for a street price of roughly $360 (or $180 per car). HUGE INCREASE for no added value whatsoever.

Somehow I'm not compelled to buy Lionel, when MTH products are still in the marketplace for HALF the price. Howard & Company will need to look elsewhere to fund their salaries and retirement plans, because I'm not gonna do it. Nicholas Smith's website shows they have 2 of the Strasburg RR 5-pack's remaining in stock (at the time of this post). And I predict these will be snatched up rather quickly now. The bright green paint-scheme is pretty cool. I own a set, and they're very nicely detailed. MTH hit a grand slam with those woodsided passenger cars.

*P.S. Dang!!! Charles Ro has ALWAYS been very aggressive with their passenger car pricing. And they're continuing the tradition in this catalog. They're selling the individual Strasburg RR woodside observation cars at $150/each, and the 2-packs at $288 for both cars. That's $144 per car... still up significantly from MTH prices, but noticeably lower than other dealer pricing for these cars.*


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> MTH tooling on the woodsided passenger cars, will they be done in the MTH factory? From what I understand, tooling can't be moved from factory to factory.


Many years ago, I joked about Chinese factories making products for different importers. And they'd simply hang a welcome sign out for whichever executive team was visiting the factory that week. I guess there's now more truth to that than we ever wanted to believe.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, I've been looking for the MTH B&M woodsided passenger cars made many years ago for a long while now and have found NONE!!!!! For some roads Lionel is the only game in town. So what is one to do with these prices. Don't buy, buy??? I'll wait for them to hit the street and decide then.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Well, I've been looking for the MTH B&M woodsided passenger cars made many years ago for a long while now and have found NONE!!!!! For some roads Lionel is the only game in town. So what is one to do with these prices. Don't buy, buy??? I'll wait for them to hit the street and decide then.


Gary, for what Lionel is charging, you could have picked up a few MTH cars and have Harry Hieke take care of it for you.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Gary, for what Lionel is charging, you could have picked up a few MTH cars and have Harry Hieke take care of it for you.


The thought has crossed my mind. Find one of the offerings close to the B&M version and just have them re-lettered.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OK guys, when you're going to grouse about prices, how about STATING the prices.
What does Lionel want for the Strasburg 2-10-0 ?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

J.Albert1949 said:


> OK guys, when you're going to grouse about prices, how about STATING the prices.
> What does Lionel want for the Strasburg 2-10-0 ?


Mr. Muffins has them just north of 1700.00 Which is right where 3rdrail is offering the H10 mikes for. A full brass engine but that's 2019 pricing. Scott is good at honoring his prices but with all the price increases on everything I wonder if he can stick to that price. Sorry I wondered. Back to Lionel catalog.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

As for woodsided cars, I bought some unlettered coaches from Beth, who still has a few lettered for other roads. I picked up a combine and repainted and lettered it myself. Still looking for a baggage car though. If anyone has one or knows of one I have a Long Island coach to trade.
Ro may be toeing the line in regards to Lionel’s MAP pricing. If you think you want something and prefer another dealer, call them and ask their price. MAP refers to advertised price. They can still sell an item for whatever they want.
Another possible strategy. If you are in a club and many members want an item maybe a dealer would offer a package deal. 
Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Sorry, must of been a typo, Mr Muffins now have the Strasburg engine at 1899


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

1899 is list price. Keep an eye on the other dealers. Lionel implied there wouldn’t be any discount on these like the Golden Spike engines.

Pete


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I'm only interested in diesels and usually only midwest road names. Ordinarily, there are still lots to choose from. This catalog only has one, an SD45 in Burlington Northern. I already have an SD45-2 in that same paint so I'm not tempted. I liked the idea of the matching dummy SuperBass units until I saw the MSRP: $500!


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Also, I see they now have the MTH tooling for the barn accessory. I checked my records and I paid $55 delivered for that in 2018. Lionel MSRP: $150.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Nice catalog, others will enjoy. 

Crazy street prices.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes, the 2-8-0s got my attention on the first pass. Will definately get an ATSF one. Otherwise some nice locos but not sure. The new brass hybrid is nice but too pricey for a loco that has looks that I just dont really like. Nice passenger cars, though. I might get some of those to go with the 2-8-0.

Will look through it tomorrow morning more closely and no doubt find some other stuff I must have.


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

I sold my MTH 64' passenger car set years ago. I had thought of replacing them, but not now! Glad I can build LaBelle kits! 2-bay hoppers are $100.00 each. Lionchief Hudson for $600.00. I hate to be like this, but Lionel has priced me out of the market. I liked the catalog a lot, but I just can't justify the prices anymore.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

No dog in this fight. Somehow the market sustains multiple reissues & increased prices each year.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> I'm only interested in diesels and usually only midwest road names. Ordinarily, there are still lots to choose from. This catalog only has one, an SD45 in Burlington Northern. I already have an SD45-2 in that same paint so I'm not tempted. I liked the idea of the matching dummy SuperBass units until I saw the MSRP: $500!


I have that barn and would give it away 


86TA355SR said:


> Nice catalog, others will enjoy.
> 
> Crazy street prices.


You aren’t a buyer? Why not?


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

c.midland said:


> I sold my MTH 64' passenger car set years ago. I had thought of replacing them, but not now! Glad I can build LaBelle kits! 2-bay hoppers are $100.00 each. Lionchief Hudson for $600.00. I hate to be like this, but Lionel has priced me out of the market. I liked the catalog a lot, but I just can't justify the prices anymore.


Interesting. Who is the buyer then? Guys making $300,000 or more a year where a $1500 locomotive does not warrant a 2nd thought? 
I am not a cheapskate but because I run conventional I do have a limit. I would say for a nice AB locomotive new I have paid on average $700 for MTH Premier. I have not purchased a new Legacy Lionel locomotive for awhile but those were $750 or so for an A.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> You aren’t a buyer? Why not?


Bryan,
No, not anymore. I‘m a 2 railer now and having a blast. I enjoy the new catalogs & want Lionel to succeed, it’s good for our hobby no matter how many rails we prefer or enjoy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the Strasburg #90 was sanely priced, I'd probably order it. $1900 is *NOT sanely* priced! That's Vision line pricing.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The #90 is getting most of the press but I was just as struck by the $150.00 caboose and $600.00 2046 Hudson. Wait, its got bluetooth and numbered 773.

Pete


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I saw this kind of thing with of all things: bicycle helmets. There used to be two big brands in the us -- separate companies. And so helmets were pretty affordable at all the various levels offered. Then one co bought the other and prices were jacked across the board. This was especially true at the top end offerings.

It's hard to see a way out of the problem in this case ...


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Severn said:


> I saw this kind of thing with of all things: bicycle helmets. There used to be two big brands in the us -- separate companies. And so helmets were pretty affordable at all the various levels offered. Then one co bought the other and prices were jacked across the board. This was especially true at the top end offerings.
> 
> It's hard to see a way out of the problem in this case ...


I would agree. I personally don’t think Atlas and Williams are up to the challenge but I could be wrong.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

The 2-8-0’s in the new Lionel 2021 v2 catalog are they the same as the Legacy H10’s sans the swinging bell. If so I may buy a couple with the intent to resell.

I had the original Legacy re-release of the H-10 a couple of years ago. I bought the H10 set along with the LI version and bought an still have the Western Lines version.

I could not give away the set at any price, broke it up and sold off the rolling stock along with the engine at a loss. I did recoup my cost or the H10 LI version.

Now these engines are selling for upwards of $900 in spite of the comments about the colors of the boiler front.

Boy, I wished I held on to not only the engines but the H10 set I could have made a nice profit.

So. I’m inclined to order three of the new 2-8-0’s in the 2021 v2 catalog and hang on to them until the value goes up like it did with the H10’s. Who knows they may have the swinging bell feature as well.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I am ordering one 2-8-0. Only thing from the catalog. The C-liners are interesting, and if there was a B unit, maybe, but . . . no.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

When I saw the hobo sound boxcar, and then choked on the $189 MSRP price, I thought gee, didn't @gunrunnerjohn just make a nice motion/speed sensing board? Universal 5 Channel MP3 Sound Board


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

TJSmith said:


> The 2-8-0’s in the new Lionel 2021 v2 catalog are they the same as the Legacy H10’s sans the swinging bell. If so I may buy a couple with the intent to resell.
> 
> I had the original Legacy re-release of the H-10 a couple of years ago. I bought the H10 set along with the LI version and bought an still have the Western Lines version.
> 
> ...


If that’s what you do as your interest in the hobby that’s fine but most of us are in the hobby to run trains not make a profit on purchases.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Lee Willis said:


> Well, I am ordering one 2-8-0. Only thing from the catalog. The C-liners are interesting, and if there was a B unit, maybe, but . . . no.


I didn’t notice the C Liners. Will have to go back in check those out.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If the Strasburg #90 was sanely priced, I'd probably order it. $1900 is *NOT sanely* priced! That's Vision line pricing.


Like Rocky Mountain said on page one, have we reached the ceiling when it comes to these prices? Will the strasburg engines get enough orders to be made?


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

Judging from comments on some of the other forums, I would say the ceiling hasn't been reached. Most people seem to be taking the price increases in stride. I've been "conditioned" to annual price increases myself, but for some reason this latest one was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. New train purchases for me the last couple years have been a "guilty pleasure" saved for special occasions. Even at street pricing, I just can't see paying for these things anymore. Perhaps I'm just getting old, but I don't see the value for the $ anymore. Not trying to be negative, this is just where I'm at right now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I didn't think the new 10-wheeler prices were totally out of line, $700 street price seemed fairly reasonable. However, the #90 at a street price of $1700 is NOT reasonable, it's not that different than the 10-wheeler from a few month ago! Since that $700 was for the same road name on the Nicholas Smith special Strasburg model, I don't see it as a licensing cost issue either.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I don’t thing the 2-8-0 are priced to bad. The strasburg engine and the wood sided passenger ares are a different story.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

The price of the 10 Wheelers is $599 not $700.

And yes I like making a profit once in a while but I still enjoy the hobby. So, if I picked up three of the 10 Wheelers for $600 each and resold them two years later for around a grand that does not make me a bad person and I’m not the only one on this forum that likes to make a profit in the hobby.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, you've one-upped me, the price of the special run of the Strasburg 10-Wheeler at Nicholas Smith was indeed $700. I also have the METCA special PRR run, it was also $700.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

TJSmith said:


> The price of the 10 Wheelers is $599 not $700.
> 
> And yes I like making a profit once in a while but I still enjoy the hobby. So, if I picked up three of the 10 Wheelers for $600 each and resold them two years later for around a grand that does not make me a bad person and I’m not the only one on this forum that likes to make a profit in the hobby.


Did you buy the last run from last year or a few years ago. They have done the ten wheelers many times. I have a TMCC and 2 Legacy engines all from different years and prior to this last one. That likely explains the price difference.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Folks, I don't think the dust has fully settled on Strasburg #90 pricing yet.

The best "no strings attached" pre-order price is Charles Ro's $1750 with no deposit required. The early-buy price is good through 8/26/2021. After that, the price is $1900 MSRP.

A few dealers like Legacy Station and Nassau Hobbies have a pre-order price of $1710, but they require a 10% non-refundable deposit. So if Lionel screws up something along the way, you're not gonna be happy... and you'll be out $171.

Other places like Trainworld and Mr. Muffin's Trains have no pre-order discounts. No deposits required, but the price is straight $1900 MSRP. Seems a bit odd, but that's what their websites are showing currently.

Me personally? I'll gladly pass on this offering. I have no interest in spending $1,900 or even $1,750 for a Strasburg #90 in a 2-10-0 configuration... brass or otherwise. I recently snagged 2 MTH Blue Mountain & Reading T-1's from MTH's most recent production run for less than $1,100/each... one "We The People" model, and one steamer done in a gorgeous blue paint-scheme that wasn't even illustrated properly in the catalog. Both have whistle-steam AND improved sound files. Lionel Legacy Railsounds still brings home the bacon for audio standards, but their T-1 also carried a street-price of $1,500. And I didn't think it was worth spending $400 more for it. 

So I'm certainly not gonna spend $1,900 for ONE 2-10-0 steamer, when I just spent a bit north of $2K for TWO T-1's from MTH that are stunning. For those of you who want to pre-order one, more power to ya. Go for it. I'm sure Lionel's management will be grinning ear-to-ear as they tally their sales.


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Good Evening Everyone,

My Lionel Easter Egg mint green Texas & Pacific Legacy 4-6-0 from the latest run several months ago was $620. The 2-8-0's in this latest catalog aren't too out of line pricewise. But like everyone has already commented, the brass hybrid 2-10-0's and the 64' woodsided passenger cars prices are pretty annoying. For me personally, I am probably going to suck it up and purchase the #90 Strasburg 2-10-0 with the old "egg" logo and striping. Reason being is that I already own 3 sets of the Strasburg MTH 64' woodsided cars. 2 custom run sets from Nicholas Smith(the 1960's/early 1970's green & yellow set and the 1980's red set) and the latest run of the MTH maroon/black cars. I have the latest MTH Strasburg Premier 4-4-0 and have been waiting for someone to do the Strasburg #90, so I'm in for one. Don't have to worry about buying the Lionel $160 per car Strasburg 64' ones. Has anyone noticed the price jump of all the older MTH 64' woodsided passenger cars on Ebay, whether new or used. They're now each $150 & up and that's mostly for the older cars with the incandescent bulb lighting-not the leds. Approx 6-7 months ago I bought a set of custom run undecorated Pullman green 64'woodsided cars from Public Delivery Track for I believe $104 each. They are sold out of those but still have some custom Rock Island and Raritan River coaches but the price is now $149 each! Anyway the #90 will be my only engine purchase in the coming year. Everyone is in their own situation with their own choices and opinions-wouldn't be any fun if we were all the same-LOL


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, you've one-upped me, the price of the special run of the Strasburg 10-Wheeler at Nicholas Smith was indeed $700. I also have the METCA special PRR run, it was also $700.


*Nassau Hobbies has the best price at $599 but requires a non-refundable deposit of 10%. Several others are offering them for $675 with no deposit required. Mario’s trains is offering $675 shipped free.

So, I’m on the fence right now as to take the chance that these will be in demand. Will lightning strike twice.

BTW: There was a time in the nineties where you could buy several Lionel items and a few months later sell them off to pay for one that you would keep. I don’t think that holds true these days.*


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

One question. Are these 2-8-0’s H10’S I don’t think Lionel states that in the catalog.


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Norton said:


> Did you buy the last run from last year or a few years ago. They have done the ten wheelers many times. I have a TMCC and 2 Legacy engines all from different years and prior to this last one. That likely explains the price difference.
> 
> Pete


Yes, I bought the Legacy H10 coal hauler set and the Legacy Long Island and Western Pennsylvania versions. I think they were in the 2019 V1 catalog. I sold off the LI and the PRR version from the set and then sold off the rolling stock from the set.

I wish I had held on to the H10’s and the set. They have more than doubled in value. Right now there is one H10 used on e-bay with a buy it now price of $1299. The last completed auction price I saw was around $900 for one of the PRR versions.

Only the Legacy H10’s are commanding these high prices the others sell for much less.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Nick, beautiful job on the ten wheeler. I know that was a lot of work. As for the woodsided cars it looks like Beth has jumped on the bandwagon. A few days ago those cars were 134. I forgot what I paid for my undecs but believe it was even lower than that. Can’t blame her though. She has done the same with the Weaver 60’ head end cars. Those used to go for 60 bucks at York. Now the price has at least doubled. Even at the double the price she would have done better in the stock market.

As for the 2-8-0s Lionel first did these in 2001. They are SP-UP engines and came with number boards and vanderbilt tenders. Google Southern Pacific C-5 2-8-0 if you want to see the prototype. They released them later lettered for other roads including NYC and B&O with coal tenders but retaining their number boards. Trainz has a B&O now at half the price of Lionel’s new one.
It may resemble some of the roads that Lionel and others are doing but the engine is still that same casting minus the number boards.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> ... Can’t blame her though. She has done the same with the Weaver 60’ head end cars. Those used to go for 60 bucks at York. Now the price has at least doubled. ...


Personally, I'm no fan of those Weaver head-end cars. The interiors are awful when you peer in, and I promptly shipped the Lionel versions from Weaver tooling back to the dealer. They weren't worth the original price -- much less the newly doubled prices. Enthusiasts are their own worst enemy for buying this crap.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I picked up an ex Weaver RPO done by Lionel for around 110 shipped from Ro. I would have preferred a 3rd Rail car but Scott decided not to do his SP Harriman cars in Daylight colors. Fact is only a handful of round roof and clerestory roof heavyweights were painted Daylight but an RPO or two were among them. I think they are worth 60 bucks but 160 is insane.











Pete


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## Desperado (Mar 14, 2021)

Something about these prices just "feels" wrong. Think about the recent (say last 5-10 years) gradual increases in prices. MTH both the Rail King and Premier had components that made you feel like the price was worth it. I think this established a pattern of sorts. Trying to find a similar hobby that experiences this - the only thing that I can come up with is hot-rodding (cars). 

I can't guess the number of people out there that are fine with these new prices. Has to be a number that is very small. Not even looking at the Strasburg - how about over $150 for a caboose? Not something I am ever, ever, going to consider. 

Perhaps I need to start building kits (at least for general rolling stock - not necessarily engines). I think there may be more satisfaction, and less cost, than this silliness.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

Only thing that said buy me was the 9000.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

SDIV Tim said:


> Only thing that said buy me was the 9000.


What is the 9000?


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

beachhead2 said:


> What is the 9000?











4-12-2 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Regarding prices, I wouldn't say I'm a cheapskate. God knows I've spent a lot on this stuff. But $1000 for engine is tough hurdle for me. I'm not into steam engines so that's usually not an issue. But I tried to stick my toes in those waters once. I bought a Lionel Mikado a couple years ago. It had a misspelled tender. I took that as a sign that I should stay away from steam engines and returned it for a refund. 

That said, part of me doesn't really care if Lionel raise the prices again and again. Maybe they figure they should raise prices until such time as their orders actually go down? But it doesn't really matter, right? Just like at the store: I see the price for an item, I think it's too high, so I put it down and walk away. I don't raise hell about it or demand they start lowering the prices. That's just the price. Take it or leave it. Of course, I'm a johnny-come-lately to this hobby. Maybe if I'd been around for years and years, I would be apoplectic about it.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Desperado said:


> I can't guess the number of people out there that are fine with these new prices. Has to be a number that is very small. Not even looking at the Strasburg - how about over $150 for a caboose? Not something I am ever, ever, going to consider.
> 
> That is part of the issue. The forum community is a small part of the buying hobby. We can only guess at the number they will sell. Me? I must get back on a budget. I dropped $3500 on MTH's last 2 catalogs. Some of those Rail King items I have already sold at a loss. I'm not a good seller.
> 
> ...


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## MartyE (Mar 27, 2019)

In my business we are seeing insane price increase in a lot of the electronics we buy. Doesn't excuse Lionel but it ain't just them. I imagine being a smaller player in many of these plants doesn't help.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Lumber prices ... In 2019 I bought 4' x 8' by 7/16" OSB sheets for my train platform. Back then I paid $8.97 a sheet.

Today's price


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Well Mike I did save all of my 17 x 7 boards but I have a 24 x 11 layout now.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

*1990's version Strasburg #90 (red roof, pinstripes)* is my "Holy Grail" locomotive! I've been wanting this made for over 30 years. Not a fan of the heavy price, but it may be a long long time before we see it again, even though the catalog says more variations are coming in the future. I'm not going to hang my engineer's hat on that! Luckily I already have the MTH Strasburg wood sided passenger car set.

The "B" list includes: *PRR and Milwaukee Road SuperBass SD45 BNSF Coal Train set and add on hoppers Tough Guy Gym and Fitness building* - (I got a chuckle out of that!)

I like the 2-8-0's but have too many preorders looming. Same for a UP 4-12-2's, I always liked the big steam but never pulled the trigger on them.

Now we wait for the cancellation lists.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Cancelation Lists?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Bryan Moran said:


> Cancelation Lists?


I'm guessing all the Lionel cancelations they ave to make due to lack of orders? Guess he expects lots due the price of some of these items.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> Cancelation Lists?


While many will balk at these new prices, I suspect a sufficient enough will buy anyway. So the cancellation list might be shorter than you'd expect. Just browse the forums and you'll find plenty of examples of folks rationalizing six ways to Sunday why they're gonna buy at these price-points. And if that makes them happy, that's fine. But then they also need to understand they're doing exactly what Lionel is expecting. As I said in another post/thread, we can be our own worst enemies at times... because we all too often can't say "No". Lionel knows it, and that's why they can keep pushing the pricing envelope higher and higher. They know their market VERY well, and their view is short-sighted enough that they don't care if each year brings on more folks who don't buy. They're not in this game to be good corporate citizens. They're out to make a profit any way they can. Seriously, did you EVER imagine paying nearly $2K for a 2-10-0 steamer?


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> While many will balk at these new prices, I suspect a sufficient enough will buy anyway. So the cancellation list might be shorter than you'd expect. Just browse the forums and you'll find plenty of examples of folks rationalizing six ways to Sunday why they're gonna buy at these price-points. And if that makes them happy, that's fine. But then they also need to understand they're doing exactly what Lionel is expecting. As I said in another post/thread, we can be our own worst enemies at times... because we all too often can't say "No". Lionel knows it, and that's why they can keep pushing the pricing envelope higher and higher. They know their market VERY well, and their view is short-sighted enough that they don't care if each year brings on more folks who don't buy. They're not in this game to be good corporate citizens. They're out to make a profit any way they can. Seriously, did you EVER imagine paying nearly $2K for a 2-10-0 steamer?


But Rocky, it's a brass hybrid.🤓


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I had the money to buy the Rock Island E7 AA from the last catalog, which came in as we know at $1000, so my LHS would have given me a 10% discount to $900 + Iowa sales tax it would have come in at $980. My understanding is these were nice trains, are nice trains. Heard a couple of gripes. But I can not afford to do that when I can get "used" stuff for a lot less, especially since I run conventional. 

I once heard that luxury car makers made a lot more "profit" then the inexpensive makes. Maybe Lionel is approaching the market place the "right" way. That's sad. I'll go back and look but they would need to offer a Legacy Diesel at around $699, "maybe" $749 - in a road name I collect and model not previously seen.


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## pjdog1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Maybe it’s because MTH threw in the towel and quit making O gauge for less money? That’s why I bought MTH in the early 2000. Just a thought! Been wrong before. 

I did see one I’d like. A 2-6-6-4. For 1k.


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## Desperado (Mar 14, 2021)

beachhead2 said:


> Regarding prices, I wouldn't say I'm a cheapskate. God knows I've spent a lot on this stuff. But $1000 for engine is tough hurdle for me. I'm not into steam engines so that's usually not an issue. But I tried to stick my toes in those waters once. I bought a Lionel Mikado a couple years ago. It had a misspelled tender. I took that as a sign that I should stay away from steam engines and returned it for a refund.
> 
> That said, part of me doesn't really care if Lionel raise the prices again and again. Maybe they figure they should raise prices until such time as their orders actually go down? But it doesn't really matter, right? Just like at the store: I see the price for an item, I think it's too high, so I put it down and walk away. I don't raise hell about it or demand they start lowering the prices. That's just the price. Take it or leave it. Of course, I'm a johnny-come-lately to this hobby. Maybe if I'd been around for years and years, I would be apoplectic about it.


I agree entirely! Let's see what happens to the hobby - I would imagine train shows will be a little more interesting. Either people think their stuff is now magically worth more, or some will dump their collections.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

pjdog1 said:


> Maybe it’s because MTH threw in the towel and quit making O gauge for less money? That’s why I bought MTH in the early 2000. Just a thought! Been wrong before.
> 
> I did see one I’d like. A 2-6-6-4. For 1k.


Wow Pjdog, first thing I noticed was you joined in 2013 (almost 9 years ago) and have a total of 7 posts. Less than one per year. This forum has a few regulars and I suspect a lot of lurkers (lookers) who never chime in. I am sure your input would have been appreciated since you started buying MTH in the early 2000's. 

I am sure that Lionel has increased their pricing because MTH is not keeping them honest, yes. The MTH closure saga has been going on now for 2 years more or less. That's plenty of lead time for Lionel's BOD to get together and have a grand party regarding their major competition bowing out. 

Imagine if FORD* announced it was ceasing operation at the end of (fill in the blank). GM and Mary Barra would be dancing in the halls! *Chrysler is largely a foreign owned business now. 

So it is with Lionel. Each catalog is going to raise prices $100 to $200 per item (locomotives) and $10 per rolling stock. And there will be less options, less offerings. Take it or leave it. 

I just placed a pre order with ATLAS in the amount of $1000. They have items in my road names and newly never seen rolling stock in area names. I hope Atlas expands, but we will see. 

I have "zero" orders from the new Lionel catalog. I would buy rolling stock maybe but their prices are $10 to $35 more than "used" on the bay now. And I don't need those.


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## pjdog1 (Jan 3, 2013)

If Ford where to stop making cars I’ll be walking. I have not had anything but a ford (F150) sense 1980!
I’ve been doing to gauge trains sense I was a kid. I only had Lionel all these years. But at 80 years old I think I need to stop buying anything. I was really shocked a few months ago when I found out that Marx had 50 million in sale in 1955. Lionel 35 million. I thought Lionel was the toy train king? I always passed on Marx. But I’ve seen some really nice Marx lately and they are big bucks?


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

pjdog1 said:


> If Ford where to stop making cars I’ll be walking. I have not had anything but a ford (F150) sense 1980!
> I’ve been doing to gauge trains sense I was a kid. I only had Lionel all these years. But at 80 years old I think I need to stop buying anything. I was really shocked a few months ago when I found out that Marx had 50 million in sale in 1955. Lionel 35 million. I thought Lionel was the toy train king? I always passed on Marx. But I’ve seen some really nice Marx lately and they are big bucks?


Marx had other toys besides trains. And Marx usually outsold Lionel in train volume. They were cheaper for the middle classes.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> But Rocky, it's a brass hybrid.🤓


Yes, Gary. And only in Lionelville does the same catalog have both a 2-8-0 street-priced at $620... and for an extra pair of drivers on a 2-10-0 brass hybrid, enthusiasts can cough up over $1,100 more. That's an extra hefty pair of pricey drivers.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

superwarp1 said:


> But Rocky, it's a brass hybrid.🤓





Rocky Mountaineer said:


> While many will balk at these new prices, I suspect a sufficient enough will buy anyway. . . .


I will be one who does buy. Often.

What choice do we really have? We keep saying that we want more quality and more made-in-America, and know that means higher prices, and then complain when it happens. I am not saying Lionel hasn't made gobs of mistakes, but . . . inevitable is inevitable. Who else is there? It is going to happen . . . I'm going to be careful and think through each pruchase, and no doubt will have some disappointments, but . . .


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

easy don’t purchase. Two things will happen, Lionel will go out of business or get smart and lower the price. Remember Lionel is owned by investment firm who’s only goal is to make money for their investor. As much money as they possible can. Now there’s been a ton of product over the last twenty years. There should be plenty of used product for everybody on the market. I’m at a point where I have all the most have locomotive, I have no room for any more rolling stock.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Yes I have plenty. I will buy from new Lionel catalogs only when they offer rate never seen or rarely seen offerings in my 3 road names. Or rolling stock with names from my region.
The Atlas catalog has hoppers from Clinton Corn (Clinton , Iowa). My dad worked there in the 60’s. Had to get both road numbers at $70 each or so.
If I see that in the next Lionel catalog I will buy even at their inflated price. But I have not seen anything in Lionels last 2 catalogs. 
I will say this - MTH had a lot of locomotives in their last two catalogs I had to have. I now have them but except for my MTH purchase from Berwyns in Chicago MTH is not a future option. 
Don’t need anything so if Lionel wants my business they need to come out with an Erie Built FM Olympian Hiawatha- they could almost name their price up to $1500 - or Burlington Route SD45 maybe. There are plenty of Rock Island locomotives they could make that have never been made. They do? I’m a buyer. But their last catalog AA E7 for $1000 was not enough. I have 4 different E’s in the Rock and an Alco PA set.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

Bryan Moran said:


> Interesting. Who is the buyer then? Guys making $300,000 or more a year where a $1500 locomotive does not warrant a 2nd thought?
> I am not a cheapskate but because I run conventional I do have a limit. I would say for a nice AB locomotive new I have paid on average $700 for MTH Premier. I have not purchased a new Legacy Lionel locomotive for awhile but those were $750 or so for an A.


I’m not making that sort of money, but I can absolutely afford to buy that Strasburg locomotive. However, I’m not going to because $1899 is a ridiculous price for a locomotive that isn’t all brass.

Combine that with recent quality issues and Lionel’s absolute silence on any production problems (couplers, T&P paint, cylinder steam issues with the Espee GS series) and you’ll be getting no orders from me.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

Also note, while that 2-8-0 is a good price, I’m told that is the case because it can’t pull itself out of a wet paper bag.

The PRR SD45s look interesting as I don’t have any hustle muscle in my collection, but at nearly twice what I paid for my recent Baldwin sharks, I’m not to keen on the price.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

PRR1361 said:


> Also note, while that 2-8-0 is a good price, I’m told that is the case because it can’t pull itself out of a wet paper bag.


Not sure what that means. It has a RS385 Mabuchi. Not great but its the same motor Lionel uses in all its USRA Legacy Steam including Mikados and Pacifics. A dozen or more freight cars should be no problem.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My recent H10, the PRR #1288, has no issue pulling 25 of my smaller tank cars around the layout, including the 2.5% grade. I will confess, it couldn't make it up the grade with the whole consist, I had to break out my Legacy C&O 2-6-6-2 Mallet to pull the full train of 54 cars. Considering the size and weight of the 2-8-0, I think it has reasonable pulling power when compared to locomotives of similar size.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

MIne really pulls well, too. I have not tried 54 cars with it, but it will pull two dozen around my layout nicely, I know that.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, I'm not sure where the idea that it has lousy pulling power comes from, I think it does fine for the size locomotive it is.


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

Hmm, I’m not sure now. A friend had the earlier SP Harriman 2-8-0 and he had told me it was pretty weak. I looked up the parts, and while the original motor isn’t available, a Mabuchi RS385 is indeed listed as a replacement, with part number 8185104521, though it includes no hardware (worm, flywheel, etc.) The original part No. is 6101315100 and is listed at $28.

The “H-10” is listed as using P/N 6802180101 costing $38. Different motors? I don’t know.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Pretty sure they're both the same size motors, and they look to be the Mabuchi RS3xx size motors.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The TMCC and Conventional 2-8-0s came with puffer smoke units. They can rob some of the power from the drive, especially if they are binding somewhere but the motors are no different than current small sngines.

Pete


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## PRR1361 (Dec 14, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> View attachment 563388
> View attachment 563389


Well after seeing the photos blown up and side by side, I can tell the one has a double cut worm. That would make a big difference in the pulling power.


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## KBeyer (Jun 29, 2020)

Since my collection is mostly postwar, I’m mostly interested in regional railroads to add to what I have. Mostly would like engines (LC or TMCC) that complement my postwar rolling stock, but that means the engine has to have postwar, magnetraction level pulling ability. I find the steam engine have enough weight to handle this, the diesels not so much.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

KBeyer said:


> Since my collection is mostly postwar, I’m mostly interested in regional railroads to add to what I have. Mostly would like engines (LC or TMCC) that complement my postwar rolling stock, but that means the engine has to have postwar, magnetraction level pulling ability. I find the steam engine have enough weight to handle this, the diesels not so much.


I started out with Post War but moved to modern reproductions as mint Post War was going for higher prices at the time. I have found Williams with can motors and traction tires to out pull its Post War counter part in every case. That includes dual motored F3s and Trainmasters.
Most Williams can be found at a prices low enough where upgrading to TMCC can still cost less than current LC+ engines, sometimes much less.

Pete


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## TJSmith (Nov 16, 2015)

Went to Strasburg last Saturday to see the N&W J. Wow what an awesome experience. One thing I noticed about some of the passenger cars they had several open excursion cars. I don’t think anyone has ever done them in O gauge.

i wonder if Lionel could use the woodside car tooling to make some.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

PRR1361 said:


> Well after seeing the photos blown up and side by side, I can tell the one has a double cut worm. That would make a big difference in the pulling power.


Only true if the final gear ratio is radically different. The #1 factor is the gear ratio.

Double-cut worms are really used to have more contact between the worm and worm wheel, this reduces friction at the contact point. The multiple points of contact can reduce friction and might give you a small boost in power, but probably not anything to write home about.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Only true if the final gear ratio is radically different. The #1 factor is the gear ratio.
> 
> Double-cut worms are really used to have more contact between the worm and worm wheel, this reduces friction at the contact point. The multiple points of contact can reduce friction and might give you a small boost in power, but probably not anything to write home about.


I understand that the worm drive ratio is solely determined by the number of teeth in the worm gear. The worm screw doesn't factor into the ratio. Ex: A worm gear of 32 teeth will have a gear ratio of 32:1. If I looked up the correct loco's, both use the same wheelset / worm gear.

Perhaps the original motor wasn't up to snuff in pulling power. While both motors may be in the same nominal size class, there's a myriad of different windings that determine a a motor's speed and torque. 

Odd fact ... of all the different gearing systems, chain drive is the most efficient at 97+% with belt drive running a close second.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

A big problem with worm drives is lubrication. A worm and worm gear require constant lubrication, which is why many of the STD Gauge models with the open-air worm quickly lose all the lubrication and eat the bronze gear. MTH has a couple of standard replacement parts that I've used half a dozen times to repair chewed up gears in their tinplate models.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I just realized that I had been looking at LIONEL 2021 Volume 1 catalog when I made my last comments! I could not figure out what LEE was talking about re: the C Liner. C Liner? I don't see that option! Now I went in and was able to access the PDF flippable Lionel 2021 Volume 2 catalog. 

In this case, I will place an order for the $599 Lionel SD 45 in Milwaukee Road, one of my road names. I don't need it. I just placed an order with Caboose Stop for the Atlas SD-40 for $569.00. I have at least 5 other Milwaukee Road freight haulers so I don't really need another one. But, I have a few Lionel freight haulers and have owned the "Hustle Muscle" Great Northern and the detail is nice and they run strong. If this one is a good one, which I suspect it is, then I should truly be set for Milwaukee Road freight haulers along with my Atlas order. 

Now - for the C Liner I am hugely disappointed that Lionel did not offer that in Milwaukee Road. Milwaukee Road was a major Fairbanks Morse supporter/buyer. The only other C Liner I have seen, and I am sure there may be more, is an MTH Premier version. There is one on ebay in continuous loop by bmartz and he wants $699.99 for it, it is an ABA set. 

Lionel's C Liner is A only at $599 and "maybe" MTH's mold since it says "new to Lionel". So it does not make sense to me running conventional to buy an A only C Liner from Lionel for $599 when bmartz has an ABA for $699.99. 

So that's a disappointment. There are a couple of other items in my road names, most notably the "hobo" Rail Sounds Rock Island box car for $189.99. They also have a bankruptcy blue Rock Island box car for $59. I have way too many of those already, many in nicer detailed lines. Lionel is competing with a huge surplus inventory of Rock Island Bankruptcy Blue rolling stock. The problem has always been getting enough B.B. locomotives to front them. 

Interesting no modern (meaning streamlined) passenger cars that I could find. I enjoyed reading about the Strasburg steam locomotive since I have seen it referenced many times here.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Bmartz used to post “make offer” on most of his auctions. Doesn't hurt to try. Knowing Lionel it will either use the same shell or remove detail. They rarely add detail to a previously made engine.

Pete


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

Bryan Moran said:


> Now - for the C Liner I am hugely disappointed that Lionel did not offer that in Milwaukee Road. Milwaukee Road was a major Fairbanks Morse supporter/buyer.


My first thought, as well. I saw C-Liner and immediately scanned for the MILW to no avail.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Brendan said:


> My first thought, as well. I saw C-Liner and immediately scanned for the MILW to no avail.


I want the MTH C Liner set in ABA that Bmartz has, but in moving into our new home I am distinctly aware I have plenty of locomotives. He also has the FM Erie Built Midwest Hiawatha. I would prefer that one.


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

Bryan Moran said:


> I want the MTH C Liner set in ABA that Bmartz has, but in moving into our new home I am distinctly aware I have plenty of locomotives. He also has the FM Erie Built Midwest Hiawatha. I would prefer that one.


I want both!


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## Brendan (May 18, 2013)

Bryan Moran said:


> I want the MTH C Liner set in ABA that Bmartz has, but in moving into our new home I am distinctly aware I have plenty of locomotives. He also has the FM Erie Built Midwest Hiawatha. I would prefer that one.


Coincidence or sign - I just got my MRHS quarterly and they are highlighting the Midwest Hiawatha.


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## Big Jim (Nov 17, 2015)

Lionel has priced themselves out of my business!!! Nothing in there that I am interested in anyway.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

I wish Lionel & their business great success.

No offense given, the 3R group has always been an interesting crowd. Thought the same when I was heavily into 3R. The acceptance level of reissues, increasing prices, & poor quality control continues.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

TJSmith said:


> Went to Strasburg last Saturday to see the N&W J. Wow what an awesome experience. One thing I noticed about some of the passenger cars they had several open excursion cars. I don’t think anyone has ever done them in O gauge.
> 
> i wonder if Lionel could use the woodside car tooling to make some.


I am not totally sure what the open air cars with the J look like, but often they are made out of converted coaches. They could be kitbashed with a minimum of work, since they are basically stripped out coaches…

Tom


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