# Addressing the hobbies problems?? I think I've found the source.....



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Since getting back into the hobby(never truly left), but back in a participating kind of way a lot of stuff has changed.

Model railroading is a source of very large groups to lone wolfs and everything in between. That is a good thing because it breeds change, ideas and creativity. The flip side is no one individual, company or group has stayed ahead of the curve.

We use newsgroups? No one uses newsgroups. No one under 40 thats who, what about tracking down new hobbyists? Say newsgroup to me and I laugh, nice antiquated places they are.............. A cohesive board aka website would do much more to make everyones life easier.

Model Railroader? An ever shrinking magazine that seems to out of touch with the "model railroaders" it claims to represent. Internet startups are thriving and they are choking? Half the club I belong to long ago cancelled their subscriptions....... So where do we go from here?

NMRA- Hey we got a 8 pin plug as "DCC standard" have they done anything else since? Decoders dont even have the same function buttons mapped, let alone the same way to program any of them if they have sound? Are the manufacturers really that stupid and pigheaded? They won't even agree on some basics for ease of use for all?

Now before I get exorcised, I want people to post logical responses to these things and to extract a little more data out of it all tell us your age as well.

I'm 40.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I'm 55.

Not sure that I know what "problems" you think you've identified the source of. If you're thinking there's not enough young people in the hobby, I think its more due to the large numbers of options that young people have today. I've not used a newsgroup in many years, but forums like this one seem to have replaced them as far as I can tell. Forums still appear to be one of the best places for having good conversations among large numbers of people. Certainly better than twitter or Facebook. Forums seem to be alive and well for computer info, photography, and other hobbies, so I think that's well and good.

Its true that printed magazines have declined across the board, not just Model Railroader, but also the car magazines and many others. I get an electronic version of MR that I read front to back each time it comes out. The internet has taken the place of magazines for much of our news and how-to articles. YouTube seems to be the newest method for disseminating how-to information and model railroading is alive and well on YouTube. 

I've got to say that I've found it much easier to complete my current layout because of information posted on this forum and on YouTube. My last layout was never finished because I got stalled at the scenery stage because it was before the internet became popular and I didn't have the information sources that exist today on the internet.

I think there is much going right with the model railroading hobby. The list of products available in the Walthers catalogue is incredible. I can shop and find almost anything I want at internet stores that have huge inventories because they are national in scale. Computer/microprocessor technology is available to make our model railroads incredibly sophisticated.

I see storied on this forum of fathers building railroads with their children which is one of the most powerful ways to pass on the hobby to younger generations. Model railroads today can be anything from a simple circle around the Christmas tree to highly detailed and life-like masterpieces. I think there's something for almost everyone in this hobby and I expect it to be strong into the future.

Mark


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm 53.

Unfortunately, what we have here is a collection of opinions. Everyone's will be different. 

I'm not really even sure what you mean by the newsgroups comment. Old style "newsgroups" online have largely gone the way of the dodo, but model railroading content abounds on the Internet, some interactive (like here), some not (like YouTube), but tons of it. People still meet in person, in clubs and small groups. I have several pen pals with whom i correspond regularly (although via e-mail). It's better than ever, so I guess i don't see what is missing.

Your comments about Model Railroader magazine indicate a lack of awareness of what is happening to print media in general right now. It's largely being replaced by inline content. FWIW, i still find interesting articles every month and would disagree that it's out of touch with the hobby. And to that end, i haven't seen a print issue in 5 years. I get mine electronically. It also certainly isn't the only game in town. If MR doesn't meet your needs, try another publication.

I think a little deeper dive into the NMRA is in order. You seem to think that there job is to keep everything the same. It isn't. They're trying to devise a set of standards so that companies can be creative without being shacked, but so that everything still works together.

Frankly, I think your comments are overly cynical, and i don't see the bad in what you characterize as "problems". The hobby is changing, and in spite of your assertions, it does have new blood (how many new members do we welcome here every week?). I for one, welcome change and evolution, and think the only bad thing that could happen to the hobby would be for it to stop changing.


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

This was truncated as annoying children did not leave me time to put whole post together:laugh:

It got posted in error and quickly re-edited.

Newsgroups are still alive and used....

Several for Digitrax, Unitrack, etc. Forums, actually forums years ago would have helped there in a huge way.

Print media does have a downward slope, no one will argue that, but I feel that MR as a whole, from the paper version to their website is lagging behind the times and they clearly were the leader at one time hands down. Now I think that lead has been lost quite clearly. Go read issues from 5 or 10 yrs ago and they have a much more enthusiastic vibe then they do now.

Compare their forums to a forum such as this one. They don't even have a decent way to search it. Google searches don't count. Any website worth its salt should have a good search engine to back it up so people can use it for what it is for.

I could also go on about many, many manufacturers websites that I think are no more complicated than stuff I did on my own years ago using HTML for Dummies as a reference. I know it is not the end all be all and I am not claiming it to be, but I see a lack of progress on a lot of fronts that I tend to believe are good for the hobby going forward if they would be executed.

The NMRA does try to do good, that was not my point. I do think at times they move way to slowly for their/our own good. For all the talk of standards, other than the 8 pin plug there is hardly any. Everyone mapping the basic functions to the first 6 numbers would not be an unrealistic expectation. Extra bells and whistles could be further down the line.

Social media......................too much ignorance there to list, but sadly a way of life now if you have a club, run a business,etc. Its all about the "reach" now, but this also goes back to manufacturers and publishers websites. Your social media goes back to them, so they should be decent and well organized. Those are two things quite different from being flashy and the garbage all the cell friendly push has done....

We could start a poll here, "How may of the new sign ups are new to the hobby vs. established in the hobby"


----------



## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

3.8TransAM said:


> NMRA- Hey we got a 8 pin plug as "DCC standard" have they done anything else since? Decoders dont even have the same function buttons mapped, let alone the same way to program any of them if they have sound? Are the manufacturers really that stupid and pigheaded? They won't even agree on some basics for ease of use for all?


I’m 22½ (that is 22 years and half a century).

I have given up on DCC and have a similar opinion of the NMRA. 
In my opinion, DCC costs too much for what it provides and is not even a complete standard. So I am now using inexpensive open-source robotic-boards to run an HO locomotive directly from an Android-tablet. That’s right; no expensive DCC controller, no limited-track-based-signal-paths, and (very soon) no need to add extra hardware to the layout in order to automate train operations.
Bob


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

RT_Coker said:


> I’m 22½ (that is 22 years and half a century).
> 
> I have given up on DCC and have a similar opinion of the NMRA.
> In my opinion, DCC costs too much for what it provides and is not even a complete standard. So I am now using inexpensive open-source robotic-boards to run an HO locomotive directly from an Android-tablet. That’s right; no expensive DCC controller, no limited-track-based-signal-paths, and (very soon) no need to add extra hardware to the layout in order to automate train operations.
> Bob


Nice to see the younger side here.

Personally I think something like the Blurail stuff will take over. Blutooth, everyone has it nowadays. 99% backwards compatible as well. I told someone that it will crush DCC one day and got laughed at. Just remember, Bachmann sells more trainsets than anyone and they are going to Blurail in some of the sets. Everyone has a cell phone, everyone has Blutooth.

If you don't already, please make a post on your work so far in the appropriate are. Would like to see someone who has done it with a working system so I can ask questions!


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm 87, and have nothing but the greatest
admiration for guys like R. T. Coker who is
leading the way in how our hobby might 
be powered in the future.

Just think, guys, with the stuff he's working on
you could have a layout with battery powered
locos. That would totally eliminate all of the
buss wires and polarity problems. And oh heck,
do away with concerns about reverse loops,
one of my favorite problem solving chores.

It's all far above my retirement pay grade but so
is solid state circuitry. Never-the-less, what
he and others fiddling around with digital
technology are doing will keep our hobby in
tune with the times when we're long gone.

Don


----------



## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm 75 and have only been "playing" in this terrific hobby for the past six years.
No DCC for me, just four simple loops with a separate DC controller for each. No fancy switching, just 'round and 'round thru the cities, forests, tunnel, etc., etc.
I enjoy creating life-like scenery with cool animated accessories like the flashing billboards from Miller Engineering and horse-head oil pumps that go up and down, along with a turning water wheel on the river.
My subscription to Model Railroader runs out in a couple months and I don't intend to renew. It's provided quite a bit of help during the past five years, but not any more.
One thing has remained constant......reading this forum on a daily basis continues to provide cool ideas to improve my layout along with sharing thoughts with a great bunch of folks.
All in all, I see nothing but sunny days ahead for this super hobby.
Bob


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

*You've never had it so good.*

The title was a quote UK Prime Minister Harold MacMillan in the early sixties. It was just after the UK was recovering from war, the economy was growing, people were getting wealthier but some were complaining. Its a comment you could apply to railroading today.

There is new technology which enables us to do so much more with our trains instead of relying on a century old DC system. There are systems that you can control using Bluetooth and other technologies. Battery powered trains that do away with reverse loops and other problems and the promise of more to come.

Locos and stock have never been so detailed or smooth running. The cost has risen but so have quality and just about every aspect of model trains.

As for model train publications they have never been so diverse and digital media has only added to accessibility. And look at forums like this where people can share ideas and solve problems.

Come on guys there is so much to celebrate today.


----------



## daschnoz (Dec 12, 2016)

I think the "problem" with this hobby is that the big players are stuck in 1977.

Exhibit A:
Marketing Model
The marketing model for the big players has not kept up with the times. Sure, they have some REALLY cool wiz bang tech in their products, but if you want to buy their stuff, you're either taking it in the keister and paying list price from the "factory store" on the internet or you go to your local dealer. My local dealer is open Mon-Fri, 10:00am-5:00pm. I work full time. I have been to my local dealer exactly ONCE, on a Saturday when they had extended "holiday hours" between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Now, there are some who HAVE embraced the 21st century. Think Menards. Sure, they have brick and mortar stores, but trains are not their primary thing. They are piggy-backing off of their already established infrastructure and their prices reflect that. They are also using the internet to increase their market visibility. I think Lionel and MTH are relying on their name to keep business coming their way. That will only work for them for so long.


Exhibit B:
"The Cathedral and the Bazaar"
Microsoft owns the home and office desktop market, but Linux owns the back office and the internet. For those of you scratching your heads, I assume that you know who Microsoft is and you're most likely using a computer that runs a Microsoft operating system (OS). Linux is very popular as a server platform and is used in stripped down versions to run many of the devices that make the internet actually happen (routers, switches, etc). Many of the small tech "gadgets" also run Linux.

Microsoft develops and markets the OS, keeping their source code to themselves. Linux, on the other hand, is an open source OS that has many people around the world working on the different pieces of it and offering input. When a new version is released, the source code is also released. People are free to tinker with the source code to make it suit their specific needs. If someone discovers a bug, it is quickly verified, the code is revised, and a patch is released. The big difference is that you can do ANYTHING you want to do with Linux because you have access to the source code that made it.

Lets take this idea to the MR community. I think Lionel made a good move when they released the specs for TMCC. It allowed other manufacturers to build equipment that would be compatible with Lionel's stuff. Then they discontinued the TMCC stuff and released their (closed source) Legacy line. I think this is a bad move. 

I don't know if the MTH DCS specs have been made available for general consumption.

Personally, if I'm just getting started in the command/control stuff, I'm going to start with MTH and their DCS control system. Why? The entry fee for the MTH controller is roughly the same as the Lionel controller. With the MTH, I can run MTH locos, and for the cost of a (used) Lionel TMCC control brick, I can also run Lionel locos in TMCC mode. Sure, I won't get the wiz bang stuff that Legacy has, but I also didn't need to drop another $250+ for a Legacy control system.

Ultimately, I think if they big players want to succeed as a whole, they're going to need to change HOW they reach their target market, and technically, they're going to need to agree on more than just track spacing and operating voltage.


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

I am not a model RR pro by any means, but if I were going to establish a standard, it would not be DCC.

I would run a fixed AC voltage to the rails. Inside the loco would be a rectifier bridge and associated circuitry for Bluetooth control. We are talking about one very small chip, a heat sink and tiny antenna.

I do not know anything about the Bachman Bluetooth systems mentioned in earlier posts. Maybe that is how they do it, or maybe they figured out something better.

But from the little I know, DCC is a side track and a dead end.


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Bluetooth connections are short range, a few feet and hence of little interest on a lot of layouts. You can say whatever you want about current DCC, but so far I've seen nothing better. It would be nice to have dead rail but then you have to put up with batteries, an even more complicated issue. I'll stick to something that works -- DCC.


----------



## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

> Addressing the hobbies problems?? I think I've found the source.....


Well, some see problems, and some see opportunities.....and in both cases, the source is us....


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I was at the Pacific Science Museum in Seattle this morning to see their model railroad exhibit that is up for just just weekend. There were lines to get in and a big crowd inside. Lots of families with small children looking at the trains. My conclusion is that model railroading is alive and well with a lot of interest from the younger generations. If that turns into sales and model railroads in the home, I'm not sure, but the interest is there.

Mark


----------



## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

Lemonhawk said:


> Bluetooth connections are short range, a few feet and hence of little interest on a lot of layouts. You can say whatever you want about current DCC, but so far I've seen nothing better. It would be nice to have dead rail but then you have to put up with batteries, an even more complicated issue. I'll stick to something that works -- DCC.


“Bluetooth … short range, a few feet” is a old and common misconception that is easily disproved by little research.
Bob


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I'll stick with my statement. Bluetooth is short range, car seat to car. Certainly we can do something better than Bluetooth.


----------



## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

I am 69 and am an example of 1977 with updates. I have a flip cell phone, and don't understand what Bluetooth is, other than what you have after eating a blue berry. I am modeling N-scale, and bought a Digitrax DCC system and 3 new locos. I run them with my old hook horn-coupled cars on Atlas flex track with old Atlas turnouts, all from the 70s and 80s.

I have no idea what a newsgroup is.

I stopped receiving Model Railroader several months ago because I felt they were operating beyond my world of understanding, and they were too expensive. I feel most of the whole hobby is too expensive. I VERY seldom buy anything new or used.

I have an NMRA gauge, but seldom use it because my trains tend to run pretty well on the track I lay.

From what I see here on the MTF, I'd suggest that model railroading as a hobby has a bright future. We have young, middle and older-aged people, all of us learning and teaching as we go.


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

DonR said:


> I'm 87, and have nothing but the greatest
> admiration for guys like R. T. Coker who is
> leading the way in how our hobby might
> be powered in the future.
> ...


87 huh? Pretty cool your still kicking and have a hobby and use the internet. Did you ever think the world would be like this?



daschnoz said:


> I think the "problem" with this hobby is that the big players are stuck in 1977.
> 
> Exhibit A:
> Marketing Model
> ...


Good points in there man. Marketing and limited run BS does not do anyone good. Its like someone is scared to try a happy medium.



Lemonhawk said:


> Bluetooth connections are short range, a few feet and hence of little interest on a lot of layouts. You can say whatever you want about current DCC, but so far I've seen nothing better. It would be nice to have dead rail but then you have to put up with batteries, an even more complicated issue. I'll stick to something that works -- DCC.


Blutooth was crappy in its infant age, that is no longer the case. Most phones work for quite a distance and it tends to be very stable as well.

Batteries...............................batteries suck. At least until the make something dead reliable that can go "x" cycles from full charge to discharge I'm not going near them. I do not need more batteries in my life.




Hey now, everyone needs to post their age, most of the first pagers did!

Also I notice a trend with Model Railroader, that is something that they might be wise to address you think?


----------



## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

3.8TransAM said:


> Since getting back into the hobby(never truly left), but back in a participating kind of way a lot of stuff has changed.
> 
> Model railroading is a source of very large groups to lone wolfs and everything in between. That is a good thing because it breeds change, ideas and creativity. The flip side is no one individual, company or group has stayed ahead of the curve.
> 
> ...



I'd like to see tv comercials for model train products.


----------



## daschnoz (Dec 12, 2016)

3.8TransAM said:


> Hey now, everyone needs to post their age, most of the first pagers did!


Coming up on 42 (in March).


----------



## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I'll be 55 in a couple of months. As a whippersnapper growing up we had three or four sets but rarely ever played with them. I grew up in the country and was out with my Zebco and Daisy most of the time. 

I recently got in to this hobby because of my grandson. I knew it was more popular years ago (at least I assume it was) but I have to admit it is much - much more popular than I thought it would be. However, it does seem to be more popular among the more seasoned of us. I am sure there are some younger in the hobby, but it just seems to me, not so much, just from what little I've seen. This seems true for Slot Cars as well. Most in their 30's and younger seem to be more active in computer games.

As for the magazines, I still like a magazine. But I have to admit, I think I get more information out of these forums. I do not do other social medias such as Facebook or LinkedIn or Twitter or, just a few forums. I've never been interested in computer games, I like hands-on. Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm very happy with the hobby. There are certainly some things I'd change but I'm a realist. It will never be perfect and its actually pretty close now.


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

daschnoz said:


> Coming up on 42 (in March).


Funny, very close in age and we share the overall'ish same type of views.


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Lemonhawk said:


> Bluetooth connections are short range, a few feet


Respectfully, no. For example, my bluetooth earpiece remains connected to my phone for more than 60 feet, through walls.

And my comments were not intended to malign DCC. Of course it works. But as OP pointed out there are few standards and technologically DCC will inevitably be eclipsed by Bluetooth which is fast becoming a de facto communication standard.

Bluetooth is versatile, scalable and extensible so vendors and manufacturers are embracing it apace. DCC is bespoke in a niche marketplace so it is basically a dead-end branch of the evolutionary tree.

IMHO, and I do not profess to be a MR or DCC guru. I do understand technology and markets.


----------



## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm 55. Love them or hate them, entry level stuff used to be available to the average consumer. I remember Woolworth stores and the wall of trains, HO and N. Mom saw it, the kids saw it, grandparents saw it. It was there so it sold. Maybe 1 kid out of 25 took an interest, but who cares? That was Hobby carpet bombing if you will and it got a lot of people started. Same with Tyco.
I had a cheap Marx 027 set when I was little that came from Hooks drug store. Cheaply made, but it ran and the cardboard scenery and buildings it came with made it seem so real to me. My Dad bought it because he saw it.
Maybe these trains weren't the best Quality but they made a positive impact on me and legions of others. Look at what you find at a lot of train shows today. Can you imagine how much of it must have been bought by Moms and Dads?
If trains were stocked at Target today at reasonable prices, they would sell. They are not there any more and we are the worse for it.


----------



## Windycitytransit (Jan 3, 2017)

42, my first real job was at a hobby shop at 14 and worked there through high school and part of college. There were many hobby shops then and only a couple now and I live in a major market.

I think the hobby suffers from lack of new entrants due to competition and culture outside the hobby, not so much problems with the hobby itself. It is very difficult to get anyone younger than me to focus on anything other than their phone.

Second, hobbies thrive from people who have a creative imagination and fascination with how things work. That type of person is the exception and not the majority by any means these days.

Now get off my lawn!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the Windy City has it. I know far fewer young folks that really get a charge of actually getting their hands dirty doing something mechanical nowadays.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think the Windy City has it. I know far fewer young folks that really get a charge of actually getting their hands dirty doing something mechanical nowadays.


Yup. And THAT is a problem that needs to be fixed, and fast.

I work at a large defense contractor, and we're having trouble finding qualified people to fill our vacancies.


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

The Roman scholar Seneca said, "Qui non proficit deficit." Who does not advance falls behind.

With several billion people on the planet, most of whom are connected via devices, it should surprise nobody that every enterprise known to humanity is undergoing constant and rapid change. There are so many smart, inquisitive, creative, and determined people out there who figure out ways to solve their problems, and then boast about/share them on social media of all kinds that the ideas get taken up quickly, improved upon, and then surpassed before E-Corp has a chance to bring it to market. Only staples like our locomotives, rolling stock, and scenery offer any semblance of rigidity in time and in form/function. Methods change, supporting accessories change, protocols change.

For the old ways folks, those who own and operate hobby stores, or who build layouts, even for a living in some cases, it's simply too easy to get stuck in a comfort zone with something we learn to do well and efficiently, especially if it is reliable and robust. DC/analog and now DCC have become staples over the past 100 years, with the latter about 20 years old now. What has taken blutooth and Arduino use, and on-board power storage so long?!?!?

I will say that my experience with DCC has been salutary. It works, it is reliable, and I am happy with the experience. The locomotives have improved, but there is still that niggling problem with contact on the rails and stalling locomotives, something much worse in DCC. If that were rectified, it would be huge. For so many of us on fixed incomes, though, it would also be very costly. It's the one observation you'll see time and time-again on fora where DCC conversion is discussed...it's too costly for the old guys. They are comfortable with their experiences to date.

Blutooth? I have several devices, notably wearable tech (I'm going to be 66 in June). Their performance is variable between items. I find that my two fitness devices, a Samsung Gear S2 and a Garmin Vivosmart, have different ranges between them and my smart phone with which they are paired (Sony Xperia Z3). The Garmin is near 10', while the Gear is closer to 15'. With a strong enough signal, I don't see why the vast majority of HO layout owners couldn't use it.

I don't subscribe to Model Railroader, but I am active on their fora. I find that each of the six fora at which I am a member is seeing a drop in 'attendance'. New membership is slowing to a trickle, many old members are drifting away or off into that Dark Night, or they have left the hobby for some reason. I do also go to Model Railroad Hobbyist and get their monthly e-zine, an excellent publication.

I do try to keep up. I like Bull Frog Snot, although I haven't used it for some time because my grades are more sensible and I am between operating layouts. I hear it dries out within six months of first use. I am interested in Arduino technology and its application in the hobby. I am almost desperate to see another power infrastructure or protocol for our trains because DCC has so many problems, at least in my experience. On-board rechargeable, or charge-as-you-run, would be the way to go. We'll still power the rails, but also run with batteries that almost never run out of charge.

Finally, I enjoy the hobby so much that I want to be in it until my dying days. The more user-friendly it can be made to be, the more likely it is that I will be in the market for a few years yet. This is something all the new brains and current proprietors should be giving some though to....I know I'm not alone.


----------



## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

mesenteria said:


> Blutooth? I have several devices, notably wearable tech (I'm going to be 66 in June). Their performance is variable between items. I find that my two fitness devices, a Samsung Gear S2 and a Garmin Vivosmart, have different ranges between them and my smart phone with which they are paired (Sony Xperia Z3). The Garmin is near 10', while the Gear is closer to 15'. With a strong enough signal, I don't see why the vast majority of HO layout owners couldn't use it.


Just to give a couple of other examples of Bluetooth range as relevant to model trains:
BlueRail/B’man - “operates from up to 100 feet away”, and OS-DBTC- “>75 feet”.
Bob


----------



## nicksim86 (Dec 14, 2015)

30 years old. just starting getting back into it last winter. I always wanted to build a serious layout. we had a HO train/slot car set up nailed to a board but nothing with scenery. Now that I'm married and buying a house I can start to build a layout. I do see some issues since I started reading this forum, going to train shows, and researching online.

I think more people my age are renting instead of owning and have too much student debt to afford the hobby 

There are definitely rivet counters and others set in their ways that tend to discourage newbies from using road bed track and entry level equipment. Then I see tons of people posting build threads where it looks like they get hardly anything accomplished over months and years because it takes a lot of time and effort to lay and ballast track, build scenery, etc. If you watch the World's Greatest Hobby video with Michael Gross, you can see he builds a pretty good looking layout with EZ track in very little time. I think a lot of people would be more inclined to get into the hobby if it didnt take so much time and craftsmanship to get some trains up and running.

Also, to be honest, it is kind of embarrassing to have this as a hobby in your 20's or late teens. even now some people make fun of me when I tell them I'm collecting model trains. If i wanted to be in a club, I'd be hanging out with guys mostly twice my age. so the social aspect is a big deterrent.

I personally like the move to RTR equipment, although the price is too high. I lack the fine motor skills to build models and not artistic enough to paint them either. I think I may be able to do some basic scenery and weathering

DCC is definitely a powerful system and capable but to me it seems antiquated already and sound decoders are far too expensive. its like running MSDOS in a world of touchscreen devices. I dont think Bluetooth is the answer either. it is a crappy wireless technology that we are stuck using because every phone and mobile device is standardized on it. it's just like new computers still coming with VGA and serial ports; port standards that were created in the 80's. ask a school that uses iPads with bluetooth keyboards how well it works with 20+ kids in a class. they interfere with each other and get unpaired constantly. this would never work to control a large number of trains. someone needs to come up with a DCC system that uses a nice color LCD touch screen with a nice GUI. we shouldnt have to buy a DCC system with a calculator screen and hook it up to a computer running JMRI so we can wirelessly control trains through a phone or tablet


----------



## mjrfd99 (Jan 5, 2016)

Welcome back. I came back to the hobby around 23 y/o. Yeah a few think "toys" but in reality my sons and daughter learned many things building our layouts, me too. We're still DC and will stay so for the foreseeable future because of the reasons you stated. 
Your railroad - your rules. Most important -have fun.


----------



## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

nicksim86 said:


> ... ask a school that uses iPads with bluetooth keyboards how well it works with 20+ kids in a class. they interfere with each other and get unpaired constantly. this would never work to control a large number of trains. ...


It is great to see and hear from your age! I am glad that you are in the hobby and here! 

The “next-generation” is the reason why at least some of us are interested and working on bringing modern technology into the hobby. However we are limited by the need to have enough potential buyers to justify the expense of implementing new technology products. It is the main reason that OS-DBTC is kludging together existing robotic-boards for Bluetooth locomotive hardware.

I do not personally have any experience operating Bluetooth in a close environment with 20+ people. But for most of our hobby environments this is not a very likely or common scenario. Many Bluetooth devices are designed for short-range use (such as wearables and keyboards) and unfortunately many of these devices are also are poorly implemented. Given that Bluetooth has way more than 20+ available channels and is also time-shared such problems should not exist for Bluetooth devices that are correctly implemented.
Hang in there, the hobby is ripe for some manufacture to step in with significant technology improvements.
Bob


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

santafealltheway said:


> I'd like to see tv comercials for model train products.


I was surprised to see a 15 sec. TV commercial this morning on our local Seattle ABC affiliate (KOMO Channel 4) for the upcoming "World's Greatest Hobby" train show that's coming up this weekend. I think that's the first time I've seen any TV advertisement for model train related products. Looks like its going to be a big show. Already have plans to attend with my wife on Saturday.

Mark


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

nicksim86 said:


> DCC is definitely a powerful system and capable but to me it seems antiquated already and sound decoders are far too expensive. its like running MSDOS in a world of touchscreen devices. I dont think Bluetooth is the answer either. it is a crappy wireless technology that we are stuck using because every phone and mobile device is standardized on it. it's just like new computers still coming with VGA and serial ports; port standards that were created in the 80's. ask a school that uses iPads with bluetooth keyboards how well it works with 20+ kids in a class. they interfere with each other and get unpaired constantly.


Hmmm, you're on the right track but a couple of clarifications:

Laptops and computers have not had VGA connectors or serial ports for many, many years. If you have them you either custom ordered something or are dealing with hardware a good 7 years old if not more.

Every day hundreds of commuters use their Bluetooth headphones and earpieces while in cheek-to-cheek proximity of each other on subways cars, commuter railroads, buses and even airplanes. No one steps on each other or drops a connection.


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Lots of stuff still uses serial ports. Diagnostic stuff and a lot of it. Wish they would get it together with the USB though.

Here is another one, since they can't even accomplish the "map the functions the same for the basics", how about ditching the damned "14 and over" labels......

Seriously? WTF is that? Lawsuit or not, grow a pair and tell them to pound sand.

My 6 yr old doesn't eat trains, for the fact of the matter neither does my 3 yr old................................

People are so stupid today they will read that turn around and walk away going "You're too young for that!"


----------



## irontodd (Aug 28, 2014)

3.8TransAM said:


> Lots of stuff still uses serial ports. Diagnostic stuff and a lot of it. Wish they would get it together with the USB though.
> 
> Here is another one, since they can't even accomplish the "map the functions the same for the basics", how about ditching the damned "14 and over" labels......
> 
> ...


My son's grandmother (my MIL) bought him his first HO set when he was 3. Or was it 2? The age ratings here in USA due to lawsuits are ridiculous! 

My issue with the hobby is the whole 9-5 thing. I work till 5, the LHS closes at 5. Sure i could go on Saturday but i live in the country and work in the city. Not interested in making another 45 minute trip one way 2x a month on payday to get more supplies. I can run out of work at lunch occasionally but then i can only spend about 10 minutes in store. I really want to support LHS but end up buying most stuff online.



mtf build thread http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=102266


----------



## nicksim86 (Dec 14, 2015)

Nikola said:


> Hmmm, you're on the right track but a couple of clarifications:
> 
> Laptops and computers have not had VGA connectors or serial ports for many, many years. If you have them you either custom ordered something or are dealing with hardware a good 7 years old if not more.
> 
> Every day hundreds of commuters use their Bluetooth headphones and earpieces while in cheek-to-cheek proximity of each other on subways cars, commuter railroads, buses and even airplanes. No one steps on each other or drops a connection.


really? because I'm typing this on a one year old Lenovo Thinkpad that has a VGA port. yes they are gone in most consumer grade computers, but business computers overwhelmingly still have VGA ports because it is the standard still for most projectors and monitors. Serial ports are still on a lot of desktops and servers too

the difference with the bluetooth for trains is you are trying to control many locos with one device, it's not paired one to one. I think the bachmann EZ app is a good solution for entry level stuff for kids, but we have better wireless technologies available, why use crappy bluetooth?


----------



## nicksim86 (Dec 14, 2015)

irontodd said:


> My son's grandmother (my MIL) bought him his first HO set when he was 3. Or was it 2? The age ratings here in USA due to lawsuits are ridiculous!
> 
> My issue with the hobby is the whole 9-5 thing. I work till 5, the LHS closes at 5. Sure i could go on Saturday but i live in the country and work in the city. Not interested in making another 45 minute trip one way 2x a month on payday to get more supplies. I can run out of work at lunch occasionally but then i can only spend about 10 minutes in store. I really want to support LHS but end up buying most stuff online.


My local shops are the same too. I dont understand it, unless they are getting all their business from retired guys. It's hard if a guy wants to stop on his way home from work to buy some stuff for his kids or to get supplies to work on a layout. I know a lot of shops are selling through their websites or ebay, but not my local guys. It just doesnt make sense to me and then they have tons of old stock just sitting in the store not moving. I try to buy stuff from them, but the selection is just too poor and the prices too high.


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

nicksim86 said:


> really? because I'm typing this on a one year old Lenovo Thinkpad that has a VGA port. yes they are gone in most consumer grade computers, but business computers overwhelmingly still have VGA ports because it is the standard still for most projectors and monitors. Serial ports are still on a lot of desktops and servers too


Fascinating. My company trashed every VGA device more than 5 years ago and has not purchased a laptop with VGA in 10 or more years. Businesses were the first to go to HDMI as people were tired of not seeing all of the colors and resolution on the projected PowerPoint presentations when in meetings. All the manufacturers switched to HDMI a long time ago and require you to purchase VGA dongles for recidivist VGA users - I recall that happened once at work when a guest from a educational institution (and hence still using an ancient laptop) needed the VGA dongle to show his presentation.



nicksim86 said:


> the difference with the bluetooth for trains is you are trying to control many locos with one device, it's not paired one to one. I think the bachmann EZ app is a good solution for entry level stuff for kids, but we have better wireless technologies available, why use crappy bluetooth?


Let's let the marketplace decide. My bet is that DCC is a dead end and will disappear.


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Nikola said:


> Fascinating. My company trashed every VGA device more than 5 years ago and has not purchased a laptop with VGA in 10 or more years. Businesses were the first to go to HDMI as people were tired of not seeing all of the colors and resolution on the projected PowerPoint presentations when in meetings. All the manufacturers switched to HDMI a long time ago and require you to purchase VGA dongles for recidivist VGA users - I recall that happened once at work when a guest from a educational institution (and hence still using an ancient laptop) needed the VGA dongle to show his presentation.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's let the marketplace decide. My bet is that DCC is a dead end and will disappear.


Any industrial type business is still rocking Windows 7. All of them. There is the answer 

DCC will live a long time, its entrenched, but the new technologies will definitely start encroaching on it.

Batteries are and always have been a crappy solution for everything. Expensive and they leave a horrible footprint when it comes to waste.


----------



## RT_Coker (Dec 6, 2012)

nicksim86 said:


> the difference with the bluetooth for trains is you are trying to control many locos with one device, it's not paired one to one.


Bluetooth is just a wireless connection technology, all the rest (one-on-one, …) is in the implementation. Also Bluetooth is mostly used for one-on-one pairing. 
All one has to do to have one-on-one for trains is to buy additional Bluetooth -iThings (around the same price as wireless DCC-throttles). 
Bob


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

RT_Coker said:


> Bluetooth is just a wireless connection technology, all the rest (one-on-one, …) is in the implementation. Also Bluetooth is mostly used for one-on-one pairing.
> All one has to do to have one-on-one for trains is to buy additional Bluetooth -iThings (around the same price as wireless DCC-throttles).
> Bob


Leave iAnything out of the picture. A lot more affordable alternatives that do anything it can and more are out there.

It will be interesting to see where this all goes, but betting against Blurail stuff is going to be hard nowadays.

Bachmann sells more train sets than anyone. They back Blurail. Everyone has blutooth. "Oh look we can run trains for the little one off our phone!?!?!"

Fini!

Thats how I see it ending up, unless someone comes up with a more universally accepted idea, but blutooth already exists and is entrenched.


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

3.8TransAM said:


> Any industrial type business is still rocking Windows 7. All of them. There is the answer
> 
> DCC will live a long time, its entrenched, but the new technologies will definitely start encroaching on it.
> 
> Batteries are and always have been a crappy solution for everything. Expensive and they leave a horrible footprint when it comes to waste.


All industrial type businesses are still rocking Windows 7? My goodness, that is far from the truth. And with current Microsoft Enterprise agreement wording and O365, it is less and less common.

Bluetooth does not have to equal batteries. Run a constant AC voltage through the rails. No more crossover problems and constant lighting in train cars, to boot.

It is actually pointless for us to debate this and I do not mean to. I am pointing out statements that seem to assume facts not in evidence.

At the end of the day the marketplace will decide as it does for everything else. The choice will be, as it always is, on the basis of cost, convenience and use cases and not prejudicial technological assumptions.


----------



## Mr.Buchholz (Dec 30, 2011)

3.8TransAM said:


> Model Railroader? An ever shrinking magazine that seems to out of touch with the "model railroaders" it claims to represent.


True that. I buy older back issues at train shows for ideas only. The newer magazines are brutal. Not what they used to be. It's a shame, because I would rather buy a well put together magazine then spend more time on the internet.



3.8TransAM said:


> NMRA- Hey we got a 8 pin plug as "DCC standard" have they done anything else since?


The NMRA is a useless organization nowadays, and completely out of touch. They need to be replaced, or just retired altogether. I don't see any use for them as of late.

-J.


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Hmmmm.....back to MR again.

Younger folks seem not to be impressed by the NRMA either.

Okay, so people like myself who see MR being out of touch, I stated why I thought so in my first post, so what do u guys think are the reasons? Give us some examples.

Same goes for the NMRA.


----------



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

3.8TransAM said:


> Hmmmm.....back to MR again.
> 
> Younger folks seem not to be impressed by the NRMA either.
> 
> ...


Maybe because joining organizations is so passe. Our hobby is not unique in this regard. The antique, classic and performance car organizations have been hit hard.

I think a reason is that with internet forums you can interact with thousands more individuals, every day, instead of the same group of individuals every now and again (and when the weather cooperates).


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nikola said:


> All industrial type businesses are still rocking Windows 7? My goodness, that is far from the truth. And with current Microsoft Enterprise agreement wording and O365, it is less and less common.


Where do you get your figures?

Business Acceptance of Windows 10



> _*Based on an evaluation of more than 400,000 Windows-based computing devices between January and May this year, across 169 organizations in the US and Canada using the TechCheck asset management solution, the study reveals less than one percent were running Windows 10.
> 
> It finds the vast majority of North American businesses adopted Windows 7 as the corporate platform-of-choice since moving away from Windows XP, and have yet to move in significant quantities to newer versions Windows 8 or 10.*_


----------



## mjrfd99 (Jan 5, 2016)

New laptop with W-10 sucks. 
I went back to Chrome.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

mjrfd99 said:


> New laptop with W-10 sucks.
> I went back to Chrome.


Chrome isn't an operating system, it's a web browser. Windows integrated web browsers (formerly Internet Explorer, now Edge) do stink. I've been using Chrome for about 4 years now, and Mozilla Firefox for about a decade before that. IE? Only at work, because they force me to.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use FF, I've never felt the need to switch to Chrome. I like the fact that FF is an open-source product as well.


----------



## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

I have used Chrome for the past, maybe two years.
I do because it seems to me to be the most adaptable browser of all.Plus, I have never had any type of crash, or something weird go wrong with it.
One final, the extensions are the easiest to work with Chrome.
I am not very techie. (I call for help with Plug-n-Play!) So I will use the easiest one (IMO)


----------



## Windycitytransit (Jan 3, 2017)

I knew it, there are no problems with the hobby, only computers


----------



## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Chrome is invasive and zero privacy options.

IE lost whatever it had due to ever growing intrusions with the rest of Microsoft properties.

Firefox is my choice, but they keep bloating it and slowing it down only to slim it down and repeat the process........... Can be made the most private of the above.


Anyhow BACK TO TOPIC, I thought os something along the lines of since they can't even map decoder functions the same, they don't even include paperwork for your decoder with information you need.

Athearn, MTH and ScaleTrains are all guilty of this. There is no reason for me to spend $100, $200, $300+ and have to go to any website for instructions on my decoder. Then when you do you find out is is general information on the decoder, not specific to how it is set up for your engine.................. I mean you can't give me a plain jane black and white folded over half page instruction withe "specific" basics?


----------



## nicksim86 (Dec 14, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Chrome isn't an operating system, it's a web browser.


actually it is. ever heard of a chromebook or chromebox?


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

nicksim86 said:


> actually it is. ever heard of a chromebook or chromebox?


Well, yes, but I would consider that Linux, not really Chrome. The Chrome name in this case is marketing and brand identification.


----------



## downunda (Jul 23, 2016)

*My "New" View*

I'm 72 years old.

I'm new to the hobby but have been into model aircraft and RC boats and planes for years. So far I just have my toe in the water. Here's a few of my observations:-

I have no idea what a newsgroup is? However, I've been using forums for years and find them a great source of information and support. Youtube is also a great resource for me.

Model Railroader - I do subscribe to Model Railroader and find it informative (Is it out of touch, possibly but hey its pretty much all new information to me). However I was surprised at the small amount of MR content compared to the wonderful British Railway Modeling Magazine which even includes a DVD with each issue.
Myself I don't like on-line magazines. I love ebooks but now avoid any sort of electronic magazines.

NMRA and standards - When looking into DC or DCC (I opted for DCC) I was appalled at the lack of standards as mentioned by others. The NMRA doesn't appear to lead and the manufacturers are doing their own thing regardless of what's good for the hobbyist. I don't think you could make DCC more complex (particularly the user interfaces) if you tried, and that's coming from someone with 35 years in the computer industry.

Products - I've no complaints here as the diversity of detail, price and quality is vast. And I'm happy to see small concerns making interesting products and offering good support (Rix Products for example).


----------

