# Attaching materials to layout: grass/roadbed/track



## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Well, I've neglected my wife's layout for some time now, except I've assembled/painted a couple of buildings (I really need to get into airbrushing!). Now it's time to do more on the layout itself, I've been buying stuff and it's piling up.

This is 60x80 made of two hollow-core doors with 1/4" plywood attached to the upper surface for a little more thickness. Right now, just painted.

So, I have a roll of WoodLand Scenics ReadyGrass, a carton of Midwest Products HO Cork Roadbed and stack of 36" sections of flexible track to apply. How to install? (a) The grass package suggests RG5161 adhesive, is this the best and any tricks to apply, or should I use something else? (b) What to hold the roadbed down, nails, screws or glue? Can I apply right over the ReadyGrass or am I facing a nightmare of cutting away just the grass where the roadbed goes. (c) how to hold the track down -- screws? I see tiny holes in the crossbars at alternating spacings of 1" then approx. 4"... adequate?

BTW, no contouring, we've decided on the compromise of a dead-flat layout.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Get yourself three or four tubes of cheap acrylic latex caulk (I like the 'dries clear' DAP Alex Plus with Silicone), a drywall mud spatula, and lay many squiggly thin beads of the caulk across the surfaces. Spread it thinly with the spatula, and then lay the pre-cut mat across the caulk. 

I would then lay pieces of plywood over the mat, covering as much of it as I can, and then place soup or soda tins atop the plywood to help press the mat under it all into the caulk. Go away for at least six hours, but overnight is always better.

For the tracks, same thing...thinly spread bead of caulk. Use soda tins on their sides laid onto the rails to hold them in the geometry you need them to be adhered. Later, if you have made a mistake or simply no longer like the track geometry, use an old butcher knife slid between the mat and the bead. You'll damage the mat, unfortunately, unless you bother to cut the mat so that the track system can be adhered directly to the plywood.

Note that many use white or yellow glue for many adhesion instances. The benefit is that it can be wet with wet rags, or sprayed, and allowed to soften over about four or five minutes. Then, simply lift off the top item.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*The wonder of white glue*



tiger said:


> Well, I've neglected my wife's layout for some time now, except I've assembled/painted a couple of buildings (I really need to get into airbrushing!). Now it's time to do more on the layout itself, I've been buying stuff and it's piling up.
> 
> This is 60x80 made of two hollow-core doors with 1/4" plywood attached to the upper surface for a little more thickness. Right now, just painted.
> 
> ...


 Tiger;

I have not used the Woodland Scenics "Ready Grass" but, since you say it's in the form of "a roll" I'm going to assume it's a modern form of an old product I used decades back called "grass paper." The cork, and flex track I do have plenty of experience with.

The sheet product ReadyGrass, can likely be glued down to the doors with white glue. This is more commonly known by the brand name "Elmer's Glue." It is available in other generic brands, but all are the same stuff, white glue. One exception to avoid is "School Glue," whether Elmer's or any other brand. " School Glue" is a watered-down version that can be cleaned up easier, hence its use in schools, where young kids may get it all over the place. You are better off using full-strength "Elmer's Glue All", or its generic equivalent. If you want to lay down a flat continuous sheet of ReadyGrass, spread the glue over the surface of part of the door evenly. If needed, to help it spread easily, the glue can be thinned, but just a little bit, with water. I suggest 8 parts glue to 1 part water.
When you have a half door covered, you can roll out the grass sheet onto that section and put weights on it to hold it in place until the glue dries overnight. I wouldn't try to cover the whole layout at once because the glue will partially dry before you can get the grass sheet positioned properly and the weights down over it. This may let sections bubble up later instead of remaining flat.

Yes, you probably can glue the cork roadbed down over the grass mat, but for a better bond, and to prevent problems when ballasting, I would draw the track plan on the grass sheet, add the width of the roadbed to the center-line you just drew, and then cut away the portion of the grass mat under the roadbed. This should not be too much of a "nightmare." However, if it's something you really do want to avoid, you could glue or caulk, the roadbed down and then tack it in place with Atlas track nails. Just keep these roadbed-holding track nails clear of the center-line where they may interfere with nailing the track down later. Also I would nail these roadbed nails right down into the roadbed so they don't cause bumps under the track.

I think the "ReadyGrass is intended to be cut up into smaller pieces, that fit the areas where you want grass, and then glued in place. Do the directions for the ReadyGrass cover this, or did it come without directions?
I don't remember reading that anyone glued down roadbed over a continuous sheet of ReadyGrass. However, as I said, I have not used "ReadyGrass" personally, only the much older "grass paper." Perhaps someone who has used "ReadyGrass' will answer with better advice regarding that particular product.

As for flex Track, you didn't mention which brand you have. Atlas flex track has holes in the center of some of the ties ("cross pieces?") that are intended for Atlas track nails. You can nail the track down over the roadbed with these nails, or it can be glued down with latex caulk. The same caulk can also be used to fasten the cork roadbed to wood,(not sure about to "ReadyGrass" since I've not used it.) I don't recommend using caulk to bond the ReadyGrass to the door , since it would be much more difficult, and very messy, to try and spread evenly enough to produce the flat surface you prefer.

About that flat surface.
While I certainly respect your right to build your layout however you wish, I think you might want to add "contouring" at some later point. It makes the railroad look more realistic since real ground is seldom, if indeed ever, dead flat. Even prairies, and deserts, have some gentle contours. I suggest you install a sheet of extruded foam insulation board, onto the door surface below the track. The foam is flat, so you will still have your flat layout. Should you ever want to add a stream, road underpass, or river, they can easily be carved out of the foam. Each of these below-track-level features will be an opportunity to install a bridge to carry your railroad over them. Bridges look neat, and are usually a desired feature on model railroads.
This is just a suggestion; you, and your wife, should be the ones to decide.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

One thing about Woodland Scenics is that their whole business model is about interlinking their own product lines to sell as much as possible. You can safely ignore their recommendations -- their products like that are just rebranded and marked-up versions of things you can buy elsewhere much more cheaply.

You can use pretty much any adhesive to glue the mat down. Caulk is always a good choice. I disagree with Traction Fan's assertion that it is too difficult to spread smoothly -- simply spread your bead out with a putty knife, or one of those fake credit cards you get in the mail, apply the mat, and roll it with a wallpaper roller if you have one, or a kitchen rolling pin also works. Alene's Tacky glue is another option (ordinary white glue that has been thickened to grab more quickly). Spray adhesives are expensive, but an easy way to cover a large area.

For the track, I would use caulk for both the roadbed and the track. IIRC, you peel the grass material off the mat where you want to put the track. Screws or track nails work, too, but I think it's just so much more fiddly than caulk.

I do agree with Traction fan on the foam and contours, though. Obviously, your layout, your rules, but why wouldn't you want to introduce a little variation to your terrain? It just adds so much visual interest to the layout. Maybe your compromise is that you don't want to invest a lot of effort, but for my money, why be in a hurry? Take your time and get a better product.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback. Will reflect on all of this.

Thinking about picking up (a) a brayer to press the products down onto the surface, (b) an offset kitchen spatula for spreading adhesives.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

I used Ready Grass for my son’s 4x4 layout. 

I used a flooring adhesive spreader which has tiny notches for even spreading. I used Dap Alex caulking for the adhesive. After rolling out the mat to avoid air bubbles I used a J-roller from the middle out to give it full contact and eliminate air bubbles.

The thing with the Ready Grass is that the “grass” comes off when you run your hand or other sharp object across it and leaves your hands and tools green.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

I may already have a flooring adhesive spreader to match that description. Hmm. Also, I think I still have a "brad pusher" if I want a little more positive attachment of the roadbed/track (I'm thinking of the shear loads on those glued surfaces, presumably both the track and the roadbed will have a natural tendency to straighten).

The reason the layout is flat is that it's not a fixed layout. This is a small house, so the layout goes in the living room on trestles for the holidays and an estimated 2 months after that, then back into storage. Space is at a premium, even in the basement where it will reside the rest of the year.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

I used track nails because the grass particles easily scrape off the vinyl substrate. If you adhere the track bed to the grass mat it’ll probably rip off in no time.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

deedub35 said:


> I used track nails because the grass particles easily scrape off the vinyl substrate. If you adhere the track bed to the grass mat it’ll probably rip off in no time.


But that's the point, isn't it? The grass comes off so you can lay track, make roads, ponds, streams, etc, without having to cut and fit the mat.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> But that's the point, isn't it? The grass comes off so you can lay track, make roads, ponds, streams, etc, without having to cut and fit the mat.


Hadn't thought about that, this might make it easier. That said, I am leaning towards both glue and nails on the roadbed.

Bought some supplies -- the brayer from Amazon, two offset kitchen spatulas from Target, and two bottles of white glue from Big Orange. I'll report back on the first step, gluing down the paper.


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## CV-62 (Dec 9, 2018)

mesenteria said:


> Get yourself* three or four tubes of cheap acrylic latex caulk (I like the 'dries clear' DAP Alex Plus with Silicone), a drywall mud spatula,* and lay many squiggly thin beads of the caulk across the surfaces. Spread it thinly with the spatula, and then lay the pre-cut mat across the caulk.
> 
> I would then lay pieces of plywood over the mat, covering as much of it as I can, and then place soup or soda tins atop the plywood to help press the mat under it all into the caulk. Go away for at least six hours, but overnight is always better.
> 
> ...


Good tips right there. Thanx for sharing that. Brain picking is a wonderful thing. :appl:


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

traction fan said:


> The sheet product ReadyGrass, can likely be glued down to the doors with white glue.


Well, so far so good -- with some caveats.

I just covered the first half (30x80) of the layout, prior to bolting the two halves together. This stuff is much nicer than I expected, and does not appear to be shedding (especially nice when I have to take down the layout for storage). Hmm, it's not backed with paper but with vinyl, so I presume more tear resistant but I do hope the while glue holds. I had to choose between the caulk and the white glue recommendations, so here we are. The offset spatula worked pretty well for spreading and the brayer did a great job of pressing the mat onto the board and smoothing it out. I cut the mat for a 1" or so overlap and will trim with an X-Acto once dry.

Alas, poor planning. 50x100 roll and the layout is 60x80... oops! I was about to order ASAP from Train World when I decide to halt and call the ONE local hobby shop that I know of; they have one roll of the exact item # in stock (apparently it comes in various shades of green... huh?) and I can pick it up in the morning.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*White glue and vinyl*



tiger said:


> Well, so far so good -- with some caveats.
> 
> I just covered the first half (30x80) of the layout, prior to bolting the two halves together. This stuff is much nicer than I expected, and does not appear to be shedding (especially nice when I have to take down the layout for storage). Hmm, it's not backed with paper but with vinyl, so I presume more tear resistant but I do hope the while glue holds. I had to choose between the caulk and the white glue recommendations, so here we are. The offset spatula worked pretty well for spreading and the brayer did a great job of pressing the mat onto the board and smoothing it out. I cut the mat for a 1" or so overlap and will trim with an X-Acto once dry.
> 
> Alas, poor planning. 50x100 roll and the layout is 60x80... oops! I was about to order ASAP from Train World when I decide to halt and call the ONE local hobby shop that I know of; they have one roll of the exact item # in stock (apparently it comes in various shades of green... huh?) and I can pick it up in the morning.


 tiger;

First congratulations on your success! Second, I too hope the white glue holds. I'm the guy who recommended white glue to you, but I would not have done that if I knew you wanted to glue vinyl. White glue is very good at bonding porous substances, like wood, or the paper backing I thought the new "realistic grass" had, like it's ancestor "grass paper." It's not really intended for non-porous substances like vinyl. Still it may hold, I certainly hope it does. Had I known that you would be trying to glue vinyl to wood, I would have recommended the caulk. It sticks well to just about everything. Also, I learned something from CTValleyRR's response. I was concerned about being able to distribute caulk evenly over a wide area. He suggested using a piece of plastic, or a putty knife to spread it evenly. I can see where that would work.
Did you try filling the leftover piece on the bare spot? It sounds like it would cover most of the bare area. Also every bit of the real world isn't covered in grass, so your model world doesn't have to be. :laugh:
It's lucky that you still have a local hobby shop, (many people don't) and that they had what you needed in stock. 

Good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> Alas, poor planning. 50x100 roll and the layout is 60x80... oops! I was about to order ASAP from Train World when I decide to halt and call the ONE local hobby shop that I know of; they have one roll of the exact item # in stock (apparently it comes in various shades of green... huh?) and I can pick it up in the morning.


Yep, different shades of green.

Different species of grass are different colors. I have a blend of two in my yard, one that greens up early in spring, goes dormant in the heat of summer, then comes back in the fall. It is a fairly dark green color. Then there is the lighter green stuff that doesn't start growing until mid-May, but stays green all summer before going dormant at the end of September.

If you really want to make your terrain pop, buy a couple different shades of green turf and a couple of shades of the coarse stuff. Sprinkle randomly over your mat and spray it with diluted glue.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Well, in the harsh light of day -- literally...

Now I have some micro puckering, and coming up at the edges in several places. To my untrained eye, looks like the wood glue is not doing the job. So, for the second half, I switched. Bought a couple of tubes of the caulk and I did have a fine-toothed trowel of the type to apply mastic/etc. for vinyl floors and baseboards. This one went down much smoother. Moreover, in case I was applying pressure unevenly, I used my wife's marble rolling pin (hey, it's her train after all) and the brayer only on the edges. This was only 15 minutes ago, keeping my finger crossed.

Once I'm satisfied, I am thinking of seeing if I can re-do the first section using the caulk, hoping the vinyl substrate it tough enough to withstand peeling it up.

On section 2, I do have a shadow irregular routered depression to fit a plastic "lake" and I applied the ReadyGrass right over it; it will be a tedious process to trim the covering from that and still leave a nice edge.

I like the idea of adding additional "grass color" in varying hues, if it can be glued down to hold up to moving/storage without shedding.

Buying the RedayGrass locally was $11 more than mail order but I suspect shipping would have been more than that, and I supported the local shop.



mesenteria said:


> Get yourself three or four tubes of cheap acrylic latex caulk (I like the 'dries clear' DAP Alex Plus with Silicone)





traction fan said:


> The sheet product ReadyGrass, can likely be glued down to the doors with white glue.





CTValleyRR said:


> If you really want to make your terrain pop, buy a couple different shades of green turf and a couple of shades of the coarse stuff. Sprinkle randomly over your mat and spray it with diluted glue.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Additional turf can be glued on. Mask your track. Sprinkle the new terrain materials on top of the mat. Mist it with "wet" water (water with a little detergent in it) or dilute 35% rubbing alcohol, then mist it with dilute white glue or matte medium (1 part adhesive to 4 parts water, and again a drop or two of detergent). Saturate the turf materials, and they will stick.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

While I am letting half #2 set up for at least a full 24 hours +, I went back to half #1, done with white glue, the ReadyGrass came off with zero effort, the glue stuck to the wood but not the vinyl/grass. Time to re-glue.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Good for you!*



tiger said:


> While I am letting half #2 set up for at least a full 24 hours +, I went back to half #1, done with white glue, the ReadyGrass came off with zero effort, the glue stuck to the wood but not the vinyl/grass. Time to re-glue.


 tiger;

I'm glad you were able to salvage your ReadyGrass mat. As I said in my last reply, had I known that the mat was vinyl-based instead of paper-based, I would not have recommended white glue. I think you will have good bonding of vinyl to wood with the caulk.


Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Thanks for the support. The "re-do" half does have a couple of micro-puckers, due possibly to stretching of the substrate. I think I can deal with them.

The halves are bolted together now and I think it looks good - more importantly, my wife likes it.

Yesterday, I got the cork roadbed down on one half, using a thin bead of the caulk (messy if one is not careful, so far so good), and wire brads and the brad pusher (really hard on the hands where I meet serious resistance)



traction fan said:


> tiger;
> 
> I'm glad you were able to salvage your ReadyGrass mat. As I said in my last reply, had I known that the mat was vinyl-based instead of paper-based, I would not have recommended white glue. I think you will have good bonding of vinyl to wood with the caulk.
> 
> ...


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Well, the roadbed is installed and, so far, pleased with the results. I used a combination of the caulk and nails -- instead of purpose-made "track nails", I used #17 by 1" wire brads so I could use the "brad pusher" to install them; that said, in some places I could not push the bards down anywhere near flush, and resorted to a hammer. I figure the caulk is there for the tension loads of the connection, and the nails for shear loads. If I ever want to change the layout, it's clear I'm going to have to rip down to clear wood.

If tracking info is correct, my mini mitre saw arrives tomorrow and I can start on installing track. I figure one major challenge is (presuming I do the caulk plus nails method) is getting the brads pressed in without damaging the cross ties, but I still have to get them flush. The second problem is getting the curves to the right shape yet still be able to cut the ends of the track sections to a crisp 90 degrees. Perhaps start in the middle of each section establish the arc, then cut the ends last so I can use the mitre box?

BTW, no idea what brand of track, I bought it at a train show, loose in bundles of five lengths, no name printed on the sections. There are indeed some pre-made holes and I do have a "pin drill" if more are needed.



traction fan said:


> As for flex Track, you didn't mention which brand you have. Atlas flex track has holes in the center of some of the ties ("cross pieces?") that are intended for Atlas track nails. You can nail the track down over the roadbed with these nails, or it can be glued down with latex caulk. The same caulk can also be used to fasten the cork roadbed to wood,(not sure about to "ReadyGrass" since I've not used it.)





deedub35 said:


> I used track nails because the grass particles easily scrape off the vinyl substrate. If you adhere the track bed to the grass mat it’ll probably rip off in no time.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Not sure what kind of mitre saw you bought, but you probably don't want to use a toothed saw to cut your rails. The teeth tend to catch on the rails and rip them out of the tie plate assembly that holds them down.

A pair of dedicated rail nippers or a cutoff wheel in a motor tool is best. Clean up the cut ends with needle files.

I use MicroEngineering flex track, so I don't have to worry about it springing back as I lay it. For other brands, though, the best practice is to cut the rail at the ends of the curved section, not the middle. If you need a longer curve than you can get from a single piece, solder two pieces together before forming the curve and cutting off the ends.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> For other brands, though, the best practice is to cut the rail at the ends of the curved section, not the middle. If you need a longer curve than you can get from a single piece, solder two pieces together before forming the curve and cutting off the ends.


That could be interesting, as this layout is basically one big oval with about zero straight track; almost like soldering together 19 feet of track together, then forming it into an oval. Almost, but not quite.

Time to become reacquainted with my soldering gun.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, I certainly don't recommend trying to create one 19' joined piece, but definitely solder 2 pieces together while straight to minimize the number of joints you have to make under stress.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Thanks for again providing advice on this topic.



CTValleyRR said:


> Well, I certainly don't recommend trying to create one 19' joined piece, but definitely solder 2 pieces together while straight to minimize the number of joints you have to make under stress.


I came to the same conclusion. Checking in again now because I had to stop shortly after deciding to make four doubled lengths. Alas, after the first join (looks good and a test-roll of a train car over the join seems smooth), my 40-year-old soldering iron died. So, I just got back from Big Orange with a new _Weller WLC100 Electronic Soldering Station_ - I'll check in later and let you know how that works out.

Totally guessing on the correct solder, so I am using a roll of "Kester TV-Radio Solder" which is probably older than I am, likely my late father-in-law's, 40% tin 60% lead, rosin flux core. Also using Kester soldering paste, as the flux brushes I normally use for sweating copper pipe are far too large, I sacrificed an artist's brush to the cause.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*60/40 solder OK. Old soldering pasete, maybe not OK.*



tiger said:


> Thanks for again providing advice on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tiger;

The 60/40 solder is fine for soldering rail, and wiring. The old soldering paste may not be, depending on what job it was originally designed to be used for. Acid-core solder and acid paste/flux were used by plumbers to solder copper pipe together.
They are definitely NOT acceptable for soldering rail, or any electrical soldering. They are corrosive, and will eventually corrode any rail, or wiring, you use them on. I don't know if that's what you have or not.

The type of soldering flux I use is the water-based type sold by Home Depot. It works fine for soldering rail, or wiring. It's not expensive either. I suggest buying a (shoe shine polish size) plastic container of it and throwing the old paste away.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Not sure what kind of mitre saw you bought, but you probably don't want to use a toothed saw to cut your rails. The teeth tend to catch on the rails and rip them out of the tie plate assembly that holds them down.


Interesting; I got the idea for a "track saw" either here on the forum or in one of the YouTube videos on track that I watched. What I bought was https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003AKSYFU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and according to the description, 46TPI, which I'll accept as I don't care to try counting them! Regardless, it worked well enough and I did dress the cuts with a jeweler's file, the connection feel smooth enough to the touch.



traction fan said:


> Acid-core solder and acid paste/flux were used by plumbers to solder copper pipe together.
> They are definitely NOT acceptable for soldering rail, or any electrical soldering. They are corrosive, and will eventually corrode any rail, or wiring, you use them on. I don't know if that's what you have or not.


Again: interesting. Read this AFTER finishing up the soldering. The can for the flux specifically states "non-corrosive". Well, I won't rip it all back up right now, but if in the future the joints fail, I'll have no choice.

OK, The connections are done, soldered on the curves and left un-soldered on the straights "for expansion". So, I have a "distorted oval" just about filling the 60x80 space, and I glued it down using the clear adhesive caulk, and temporarily located using push pins, which I saw on a YouTube video. It *really* seems well glued down, as in it doesn't seem to need much more to hold it -- that said, I want it super secure as the layout will go into storage. I'm having serious trouble getting the wire brads going into the roadbed and plywood, and I don't want to risk damaging the track, so I ordered a box of Atlas track nails which will be here Sunday.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Now this is semi-off-topic as it's not about holding the track down, etc., but I'll digress. My next step is to power it up. I've read that the best arrangement is to solder wire to the track at regular intervals around the track. Hmm, I'm thinking four or such locations on this simple layout might suffice?

The wire I was using before is what came with our old Bachmann X-mas train many years ago, and to my eye looks like not much more than bell wire. What's the correct gauge wire for running power to the track? I'll presume I'll want two different colors of insulation as a polarity mix-up could create dramatic results.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> Interesting; I got the idea for a "track saw" either here on the forum or in one of the YouTube videos on track that I watched. What I bought was https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003AKSYFU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and according to the description, 46TPI, which I'll accept as I don't care to try counting them! Regardless, it worked well enough and I did dress the cuts with a jeweler's file, the connection feel smooth enough to the touch.


It's not "smooth" that's the problem -- any saw can do that. It's that the mechanical saws like the one you bought are prone to torquing the rails as you cut them. If you succeeded with no issues, well and good.

FWIW, that is made by Excel, maker of the brand name Xacto for hobby knives.



tiger said:


> Again: interesting. Read this AFTER finishing up the soldering. The can for the flux specifically states "non-corrosive". Well, I won't rip it all back up right now, but if in the future the joints fail, I'll have no choice.
> 
> OK, The connections are done, soldered on the curves and left un-soldered on the straights "for expansion". So, I have a "distorted oval" just about filling the 60x80 space, and I glued it down using the clear adhesive caulk, and temporarily located using push pins, which I saw on a YouTube video. It *really* seems well glued down, as in it doesn't seem to need much more to hold it -- that said, I want it super secure as the layout will go into storage. I'm having serious trouble getting the wire brads going into the roadbed and plywood, and I don't want to risk damaging the track, so I ordered a box of Atlas track nails which will be here Sunday.


You really don't have to worry about expansion and contraction on a 60" x 80" layout. The amount of expansion in the rails is microscopic. The wood base is a different story, but it's still unlikely to cause an issue unless it is unsealed and it is used / stored in an area completely without environmental regulation.

Nails and caulk is way overkill, but it won't hurt anything.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> Now this is semi-off-topic as it's not about holding the track down, etc., but I'll digress. My next step is to power it up. I've read that the best arrangement is to solder wire to the track at regular intervals around the track. Hmm, I'm thinking four or such locations on this simple layout might suffice?
> 
> The wire I was using before is what came with our old Bachmann X-mas train many years ago, and to my eye looks like not much more than bell wire. What's the correct gauge wire for running power to the track? I'll presume I'll want two different colors of insulation as a polarity mix-up could create dramatic results.


it's your thread... there's no such thing as "off topic"....

There's no such thing as "correct wire gauge". It's a tradeoff between it's current carrying capability and size. Obviously, you want it to be unobtrusive, but still solid, and capable of carrying the load.

What you have is probably AWG22 wires, which are fine for the size of layout you're making. Personally, I have an AWG16 bus and AWG18 feeders, but my layout is significantly bigger (12'x17'). You don't need a complicated arrangement, unless 60x80 refers to feet, not inches (in which case, you wouldn't be talking about storing it). A single pair of feeders is adequate; more will give you some insurance, but don't overdo it.

For colors, that's up to you. It's easier to keep straight, but not essential. There is no rule that you have to follow.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> There's no such thing as "correct wire gauge". It's a tradeoff between it's current carrying capability and size. Obviously, you want it to be unobtrusive, but still solid, and capable of carrying the load. What you have is probably AWG22 wires, which are fine for the size of layout you're making. Personally, I have an AWG16 bus and AWG18 feeders.


Thanks! Actually, I just watched a YouTube video...






... Mostly to figure out how to get the wire to stay in place while soldering. Regardless, I can tell what I have is far too thin, so I'm off to Home Depot yet again.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

UPDATE: Thanks for the help ( :appl: ), the train is up and running. the soldering went well. Right now the caulk is holding fast but the track nails arrive tomorrow.



CTValleyRR said:


> For colors, that's up to you. It's easier to keep straight, but not essential. There is no rule that you have to follow.


Home Depot's selection was picked over a bit, especially if I didn't want to buy 250' spools ($$$). Ended up with 16 gauge in red and blue, perhaps a traditional electrician's nightmare but if I remain consistent, it should be OK.

Next step: laying out the "village", with the buildings we have so far (8) plus planning for more, and laying out a street pattern.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Just finished installing track nails, not confidence-inspiring, but I presume might resist shear loads. So far the caulk is holding very well so perhaps not needed anyway.



tiger said:


> UPDATE: Thanks for the help ( :appl: ), the train is up and running. the soldering went well. Right now the caulk is holding fast but the track nails arrive tomorrow.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

There not needed. I tend to tack the turnouts down rather than glue them, just to make them easy to remove and rework. Take care not to push too hard on the track nails - you do not want to risk any bend in the tie.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Lemonhawk said:


> Take care not to push too hard on the track nails - you do not want to risk any bend in the tie.


Yeah, I did get a little of that.  Doesn't seem to affect runnability.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> Yeah, I did get a little of that.  Doesn't seem to affect runnability.


Not if you backed it out, no. If you leave the rails pinched, sooner or later it will cause trouble running trains.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> Not if you backed it out, no. If you leave the rails pinched, sooner or later it will cause trouble running trains.


?!?!?  ?!?!?

Is there a metric for that? A way to tell vertical displacement of the tie's center or horizontal displacement of the rails? None is visible to the naked eye, and the only idea I had for measurement was an old automotive tire tread depth gauge, and I'm not getting any readings. The vertical change has to be under 1mm - where any - and I cannot see and horizontal change at all; is there a tool for this?


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Lemonhawk said:


> Take care not to push too hard on the track nails - you do not want to risk any bend in the tie.


I just realized that I do own a digital micrometer. What's the acceptable range for spacing between the rails?

Speaking of using the micrometer, I am tired of looking at the tie-less gap wherever the rail sections connect - not that there are a lot of them in roughly 19' of layout using 36" flex-track sections. Each joint appears to be shy two ties. There's not enough space under the connectors to slide a "freed" tie... as they are made. It occurs to me that sanding them until thinner would enable me to glue "loose" ties into these spaces. Not fun sanding a loose sliver of plastic like that. :goofball: The as-made ties are about 0.067" thick, I found I can slide them under if thinned to 0.045" or so. Are there tricks and/or pitfalls to this?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> ?!?!?  ?!?!?
> 
> Is there a metric for that? A way to tell vertical displacement of the tie's center or horizontal displacement of the rails? None is visible to the naked eye, and the only idea I had for measurement was an old automotive tire tread depth gauge, and I'm not getting any readings. The vertical change has to be under 1mm - where any - and I cannot see and horizontal change at all; is there a tool for this?


There is better than a metric: there is an NMRA standards gauge. It is a piece of sheet metal with all the important metrics already set out on it, all you have to do is check the gauge of your rails. I guess you could go to the NMRA website and look up the exact distance between rails -- it's 16.5mm for HO track.

I think you misunderstand the issue, though. What happens when you overdrive a track nail is that it compresses your roadbed downward in the center, forcing the center of the plastic tie downward and the ends correspondingly upwards. The resulting bow in the tie forces the rails to cant inwards, resulting in a narrow spot in your gauge. It doesn't take much pinch the flanges of your rolling stock, causing hesitation, stalls, and derailments or uncoupling.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> I just realized that I do own a digital micrometer. What's the acceptable range for spacing between the rails?
> 
> Speaking of using the micrometer, I am tired of looking at the tie-less gap wherever the rail sections connect - not that there are a lot of them in roughly 19' of layout using 36" flex-track sections. Each joint appears to be shy two ties. There's not enough space under the connectors to slide a "freed" tie... as they are made. It occurs to me that sanding them until thinner would enable me to glue "loose" ties into these spaces. Not fun sanding a loose sliver of plastic like that. :goofball: The as-made ties are about 0.067" thick, I found I can slide them under if thinned to 0.045" or so. Are there tricks and/or pitfalls to this?


You should replace the ties that you removed before joining the track. File the underside of the ties, and remove the little plastic tabs on the molded tie plates that hold the rails. You should be able slip them back under the rails. If you can't, that's another indication that the track may be forced down too tightly. You don't even need to glue them in place: the tie plate detail will hold them under the rails until you ballast your track, at which point the adhesive on your ballast will hold them in place.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

Thanks!



CTValleyRR said:


> There is better than a metric: there is an NMRA standards gauge. It is a piece of sheet metal with all the important metrics already set out on it, all you have to do is check the gauge of your rails. I guess you could go to the NMRA website and look up the exact distance between rails -- it's 16.5mm for HO track.


I need to get one of these ASAP.



CTValleyRR said:


> I think you misunderstand the issue, though. What happens when you overdrive a track nail is that it compresses your roadbed downward in the center, forcing the center of the plastic tie downward and the ends correspondingly upwards. The resulting bow in the tie forces the rails to cant inwards, resulting in a narrow spot in your gauge. It doesn't take much pinch the flanges of your rolling stock, causing hesitation, stalls, and derailments or uncoupling.


Been pulling the deformed ties back up, although it's quite minimal to my eye. No idea how to measure rail angle from vertical.



CTValleyRR said:


> You should replace the ties that you removed before joining the track. File the underside of the ties, and remove the little plastic tabs on the molded tie plates that hold the rails. You should be able slip them back under the rails. If you can't, that's another indication that the track may be forced down too tightly.


Not sure I'm experiencing that; in part, the nails are not always right at the joins. What I am seeing is the thickness of the connector, and the removed ties running into that, hence the sanding. So far, after sanding, they slip in fine.



CTValleyRR said:


> You don't even need to glue them in place: the tie plate detail will hold them under the rails until you ballast your track, at which point the adhesive on your ballast will hold them in place.


As this layout will be moved off-season, not sure I'd be happy with the results of a slip-fit. That said, have not even begun to think about "ballasting", perhaps I'll explore that in 2.0


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

tiger said:


> I need to get one of these ASAP.


They're available at most hobby stores and on-line vendors. You might have to ask.



tiger said:


> Been pulling the deformed ties back up, although it's quite minimal to my eye. No idea how to measure rail angle from vertical.


You don't have to. If the rails are in gauge after you correct the overdriven nail, no worries.




tiger said:


> Not sure I'm experiencing that; in part, the nails are not always right at the joins. What I am seeing is the thickness of the connector, and the removed ties running into that, hence the sanding. So far, after sanding, they slip in fine.


I'm confused. I thought that's what you were wondering about. Yes, you have to remove some material from both the underside of the tie and the tie plate detail to account for the thickness of the joiner. There's no shortcut; you have to hop in and knock it out. This was from your other post and has nothing to do with track nails.



tiger said:


> As this layout will be moved off-season, not sure I'd be happy with the results of a slip-fit. That said, have not even begun to think about "ballasting", perhaps I'll explore that in 2.0


Ah. I probably lost the bubble on that somewhere along the line. It's simple enough to glue these small sections of tie in place. A drop of thin CA at the bottom of one of the ties will wick under and secure it. As for ballasting, even though it is my second least favorite task in the hobby (after wiring), I highly recommend it. It makes things look so much better, and it hides a lot of things like dabs of adhesive and wires.


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

CTValleyRR said:


> They're available at most hobby stores and on-line vendors. You might have to ask.


Will do!



CTValleyRR said:


> Yes, you have to remove some material from both the underside of the tie and the tie plate detail to account for the thickness of the joiner. There's no shortcut; you have to hop in and knock it out.


I did a bunch yesterday, they look good to my unpracticed eye. More importantly, my wife likes the results.



CTValleyRR said:


> As for ballasting, even though it is my second least favorite task in the hobby (after wiring), I highly recommend it.


I'll see if I can search and find a "how to ballast" post or on-line video.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Ballasting*



tiger said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tiger;

If you ballast your track,and you have already secured it with caulk, the track nails are completely unnecessary. The ballast is spread over, then down between, the ties. It is fastened in place with diluted white glue. When that glue has set up, the track is cast into the ballast which will hold it very firmly in place. Either the caulk, or the ballast/glue mix, would hold the track firmly in place. Using both of them, even more so. Using the track nails too would then be triple redundant. Atlas is one of the few brands of model track that is even made with nail holes in the ties. Most model track does not have any holes to drive nails through and so is not nailed at all, but simply glued down, often with caulk. I don't know what kind of "shearing forces" you are expecting from merely turning the layout on edge and moving it into storage. (If I understand your earlier posts correctly.) Anything much less than smacking it sideways with a hammer, ain't gonna move that track at all.
All that said, it's still your railroad, so if you want to try installing nails, bending nails, removing bent nails, Etc. Etc. it's your choice. For whatever it's worth, it sounds to me like you're just making extra work, and disappointment, for yourself with those nails.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## tiger (Dec 16, 2015)

traction fan said:


> it sounds to me like you're just making extra work


I agree - finally. Presumed that I needed the extra step due to off-season storage. In retrospect, those tracks are down FIRM.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The problem won't be finding a video on how to ballast, but how many of them you're going to find. Like so much else in this hobby, there are dozens of methods, and they all work for the person who posted it. You may need to experiment to find one that works best for you.


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