# Shinohara turnouts - electrical short (DC)



## Thunderbow (Nov 13, 2012)

Hi folks,

I'm starting to wire up a DC common rail/block control layout that I'm in the process of building. It's based on the old Atlas Granite Gorge and Northern layout plan, although significantly larger (7 1/2' x 20') and with some extras that can fit in with the additional space.

I've stuck with DC for cost reasons (already had the transformers) and I'm wiring it up with the blocks more or less the same as the original layout plan - again, with some expansion.

I have one loop fully wired and have been testing trains out on it and so far everything seems to be running smooth as far as getting a test train to make loops without de-railing. However, in the process of wiring it up I discovered that if either of the 2 Shinohara turnouts around this loop were set to the diverging-track position, it would cause a short.

This isn't an immediate problem since the diverging tracks are not actually in place yet - both of the turnouts in question need to be in the main line position for the loop that's completed to operate, but it obviously will be a problem when the diverging tracks are completed - and it won't be long until they are.

I've confirmed that this is definitely where the problem lies through a combination of experimentation and with the voltmeter. Switching either turnout to divergent while under power causes:

A) the transformer light to dim, as it does in overload
B) the voltmeter to register a severe drop in voltage
C) any operating train to lose 75-100% of its speed

No other condition was changed when making this determination

Any advice on how to remedy this would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance!


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

I can't really follow what you're trying to tell us. Perhaps a drawing would help.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

I am quite familiar with that layout and I suspect that you have crossed the polarity wiring somewhere on the rail feeders. The turnouts should not cause a short set in either position. In fact I used a Shinohara curved turnout on the inner 8 inside the mountain without any particular electrical modification.

Here is my version:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=14852


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

My layout has either Hand laid track or Shinohara track because when I started my layout, Shinohara was the easiest track to find in code 70. 

The point route the power in Shinohara turnouts. You may have to cut a gap depending on where the turnout is. 

I'm still using DC only also. I a a lone operator and almost never run more than one train at a time. DCC would be of no advantage to me.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There must be an internal 'wiring' that is not
right on the turnouts. He says there are no
tracks connected to the divert rails, thus no
'sneak' polarity is possible. The frog can be wired to
be powered. But even so it's isolated but there
could be a defect in the insulation. 

Sound like it's time for the multimeter. 

Don


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## redman88 (Nov 25, 2015)

time to pull the turn out out, and do a continuity check with the multi-meter not just a voltage.


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## DaveCo (Nov 9, 2015)

I agree with redman, if you've checked your wiring to it as well as blocked it properly it's likely there is a connection within the turn out itself that is not meant to be there. Most harmless way is to use a multi meter on it and test all possible positions (full left, partly left, middle, etc..) and go from there. You may have to clip some things or dig deeper.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Shinohara shorts*



Thunderbow said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm starting to wire up a DC common rail/block control layout that I'm in the process of building. It's based on the old Atlas Granite Gorge and Northern layout plan, although significantly larger (7 1/2' x 20') and with some extras that can fit in with the additional space.
> 
> ...


thunderbow;

I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as your problem but it may point you in the right direction. 
A club railroad was using Shinohara, code 70, power routing, turnouts. They had a mysterious short when the two turnouts in a crossover were set in the crossover(diverting) direction. The straight(main) route had no short. The turnouts had all six of their rails equipped with insulating rail joiners and three feed wires, straight stock rail, curved stock rail, and frog. The wiring was checked many times by several different tech-savvy members. Everyone agreed that the wiring was correct. None of the rails were shorted to anything when set for the main route. The problem was that the club was using music wire linkages to throw the turnouts and these linkages passed through the hole in the metal throw bar of each turnout. The two linkages were also(inadvertently)electrically connected to each other by a metal bar, used to move both linkages, simultaneously, with one motor. 
Replacing that metal bar with a plastic one solved the problem. When in the crossover position, the frog/point rails/throw bar assembly of each turnout was electrically connected to the outside(straight route) rail of its turnout. The two outside rails were of opposite polarity, dead short. 
Now you may not be using a crossover, but if you are using music wire linkages, through the throw bars, are any of those linkages touching anything?

Good luck;

Please send a photo of the turnouts in question it will help us help you. 

Traction Fan


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Its highly unlikely to be a fault with the turnout but not impossible. If there is one it can only be in the frog. Maybe its not insulating correctly as DonR suggests.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Very interesting solution Traction Fan.

We'll need to keep that in mind, it's certain
to come up again.

Don


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Never thought of shorting with the wiring under the track. It is possible cause. Hope you find it.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I was thinking about that problem yesterday while working on a turnout. I made my turnouts using CVT ties with switchmaster machines underneath. The piano wire pokes thru a hole in the PC tie at the points and hence may contain the A or B side of the track. I'll have to check to see if it can get any farther, hopefully its isolated from the actual motor contacts. I think I isolated the PC tie to prevent the piano wire from just shorting at the PC tie.


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## Thunderbow (Nov 13, 2012)

Sorry for the delay in getting back here with pictures:





A test for resistance with my multimeter indicates that the switch points do, indeed, conduct from one rail to the other - I get about 1.5 ohms resistance when they are in the middle (i.e. not lined to either rail)

I think the current is conducting across the metal in the bar connecting them, but I'm not entirely sure. This seems to be the case with all my Shinohara turnouts; the few Atlas turnouts I have with plastic bars don't seem to have the problem.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The two point rails do appear to be electrically the same.
You can prove that with your ohm meter. Put a probe
on both point rails when they are not touching the
stationary rails. If you get a reading, they are connected.
That should not ordinarily be a problem, however if you
have an electro frog you can see how it could be a\
problem. Check
the 'wiring' under the turnout and see if any power goes to
the frog. Also check to make sure that the frog rails are
not shorted together. There should be a thin plastic
insulator between them. 

Do a careful inspection of the frog area. I suspect that
is where your short is happening.

Which track in your pic do you consider 'divert' Left or Right?

Don


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

that is one of the older style ... both point rails are electrically tied together, along with the frog, and frog exit rails ...all you need is to put isolation joiners [plastic, not metal] on both of the frog_ exit_ rails, the two in the middle ..


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

That is a "live" frog, it needs to be insulated as has been stated. Did you not get any wiring instructions from Shinohara?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

WVGCA & Cycleops

What you prescribe is exactly what is to be done with Electrofrog type
turnouts to prevent a short.

But in the OP's situation, he does not yet have the divert tracks connected
to the turnout only the 'straight' so the insulated joiners would be of no
consequence at this point. He is getting the short indication with the turnout 
off of the layout.

I have never had one of these animals in my hand so I don't know what
'wiring' they have on the bottom. There must be something amiss
under there.

Don


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

DonR said:


> WVGCA & Cycleops
> 
> But in the OP's situation, he does not yet have the divert tracks connected
> to the turnout only the 'straight' so the insulated joiners would be of no
> ...


with only main line attached [without insulated joiner at frog] normal direction would be okay, when set to diverging, the point would move to other side, and connect both point rails, frog, and both frog exit rails to power from other track rail, and would be a direct short where the frog rail connects to the main rail.. this can easily be verified with a test meter, indicator light, or similar


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

WVCGA

Oh yes...you are right,,,now I see your Point..it is the lack of insulated joiner
in the existing frog rail track that is causing the short when set to divert. Missed
that. But then I have Insulfrog Pecos and don't have that concern.

That's all he needs to get things moving again...an insulated joiner
for both frog rails of both turnouts...and any others yet to be installed
if they are electrofrog as these are.

Don


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## Thunderbow (Nov 13, 2012)

The main line in this case is the outer curve. No wiring instructions came with any of the turnouts.

I'm a little unclear on the insulated rail joiners - if I understand the advice you guys are giving, the two innermost rails on the end of the turnout with the 2 tracks diverging should both have insulated joiners on them. Is that correct?


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Thunderbow said:


> The main line in this case is the outer curve. No wiring instructions came with any of the turnouts.
> 
> I'm a little unclear on the insulated rail joiners - if I understand the advice you guys are giving, the two innermost rails on the end of the turnout with the 2 tracks diverging should both have insulated joiners on them. Is that correct?


on the side with four track rails, the middle two that exit the frog in a "vee" .., insulated joiners on those ... the harder ones [if you have a choice] will hold rail alignment better [IMO]


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## Thunderbow (Nov 13, 2012)

wvgca said:


> on the side with four track rails, the middle two that exit the frog in a "vee" .., insulated joiners on those ... the harder ones [if you have a choice] will hold rail alignment better [IMO]


10 4, thanks very much! I really appreciate all the help.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Correct. The two diverging rails from the frog need insulators.

Oops question already answered while I was still on page one.

Magic


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## redman88 (Nov 25, 2015)

Did you ever get your turn out to work? I had insulated joins on all four output rails on mine and it still was shorting when pointed toward the inside curve. Still trying to find the best solution.


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## redman88 (Nov 25, 2015)

Okay I fixed my electrical short.








Now I just have to wire the frog to a switch.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

I had a similar issue with an atlas turn out.


What happened was a teeny tiny bit of metal was left over, connecting the rails underneath the insulating plastic for the frog. I cut all the way through it with a dremmel and the short went away, with that new gap.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

If I'm reading you right, I am seeing that your
frog rails are electrically the same. So, even with a
frog switch it looks to me that you would still need to use insulated joiners on the frog rails to prevent a short since their polarity will change with the switch.

Don


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