# Help, please



## Trainmaster

Hello everyone....

This is my first post. I am not new to model trains, as I have been running Lionel trains since 1951.

However, I *am *new to these liquid smoke units. Let me be specific:

I bought the Fundimentions Daylight GS-4 #8307 and the Fundimentions 
re-issue of the 1950 Hudson #8604 when they first came out.

These are the only locomotives I have that are liquid smoke.

I am very famliar with the smoke pellet generators, and have rebuilt the very few that failed due to the nichrome wire. 

However, this is a horse of a different color................

Today (the first time I ran the locomotive since 2004), I placed about 8-10 drops of Lionel liquid smoke in the Lionel Hudson # 783 (catalog 8604) smoke unit. It was "smoking up a storm."
After about a half, hour, I was afraid the resistor might dry up and fry because the smoke level was going down. It was still smoking well.

So, I put 3 more eye drops of smoke into the chamber. Now, no smoke at all.

Perhaps, I should let the unit cool down????

Can anyone advise what is the proper way to both place liquid smoke in these generators and prevent the resistor from going out? How many drops of smoke should be applied and how often? Should I wait until the unit has cooled down?

Any advice you can give me is appreciated. I can get plenty of the pellets and parts for the pellet generators - and have very few problems with those - it is these smoke units that must have different requirements.

I hope some of you reply - especially any of you who have had experience with Lionel smoke generators that use a resistor for its heating source.

Let me tell you, this problem is very discouraging. I have replaced enough of those liquid smoke units in these two locomotives over the time that I bought them! I accidently broke a wire in the 681 steam turbine, my first locomotive.
I rewired it and had it running in minutes. I can't say that for these liquid smoke locomotives.

Thanks very much

Trainmaster
TCA 86-23186


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## Big Ed

We have some threads on the subject, maybe someone can find them.

Up to 15 drops when new after that 3-4 drops. when it stops smoking add 3-4 more. And I think that they don't last that long till you have to add more. If you run it full throttle maybe you can get yours smoking again? Maybe you just put too much in?

If you don't put fluid in turn it off as you will burn the unit out.

Other "experts" on the liquid smokers will show up, give the post some time. 
I am not an "expert" on liquid smoke.

I just didn't want you to feel like your being ignored.

Though others will disagree with me I like the old pellet smokers.

Welcome to the site too.


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## THE TYCO MAN

I always put at least 5 drops and wait for the smoke to slowly thin out and then add 4 drops. If there is a On/Off switch, switch it off once the smoke gets thin.


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## Big Ed

I found this thread I don't know if it will be of any help to you.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=889&highlight=liquid+smoke+generator



Another,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7910&highlight=liquid+smoke


I found this on generic smoke generators.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6233&highlight=liquid+smoke


More on smoke,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6184&highlight=liquid+smoke

One more, I am heading back down to my train dungeon,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5580&highlight=liquid+smoke




http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=6184&highlight=liquid+smoke


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## gunrunnerjohn

The only thing too much fluid normally does is drop the smoke intensity for a period of time. If you REALLY put in too much, it makes a mess inside the locomotive. If you only put three drops in, just run it a bit more, I think it'll start working.

One thing that happens, a bubble forms in the tube. Blow into the stack and see if that clears things out.


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## tjcruiser

Trainmaster,

Good insight from the guys above re: smoke fluid. No additional thoughts from me.

However, I just wanted to chime in and welcome another old Lionel guy to our forum ... great to have you onboard, and hope to see more of your projects / work.

Oh ... and it takes 7,500 posts to work your way up to a Train Master on our forum!  Go to it!

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Trainmaster,
> 
> Good insight from the guys above re: smoke fluid. No additional thoughts from me.
> 
> However, I just wanted to chime in and welcome another old Lionel guy to our forum ... great to have you onboard, and hope to see more of your projects / work.
> 
> Oh ... and it takes 7,500 posts to work your way up to a Train Master on our forum!  Go to it!
> 
> TJ



Did you figure out what it will be for 20,00 posts?


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## Trainmaster

Thank you EVERYONE for your help. I have to go to the new-comers column and introduce myself.

Knowing, practically nothing about liquid smoke, I put more drops plus a "load" on the NYC 783 Hudson....yes, it started smoking, again. It really put on a show. It stunk up the room so bad, our siamese cat was resting by the door and moved down the hall.

I think I can only run that locomotive for about 20 minutes. I have a severe case of asthma - the aroma from the smoke pellets do not bother me, but this engine was "smoking up a storm" and I had to get out of there.

No, there is not a switch to "turn off the smoke." But, in the past, I may have run the units empty.

Some of you may remember - don't put a "pill" in the engine until the last one was consumed. Today, I learned it is just the opposite with liquid smoke.

So glad to find this forum. As I love trains, I will be very active on it. And, again,
I thank those of you who replied, or yet to reply, as I have a long ways to go learning about liquid smoke. Do something wrong, and it is either a new resistor or a unit.

With the pellets, the worse thing to go wrong is a break in the nichrome wire. Then,
I just re-wire it. It happened only twice in 61 years. I say that means a lot for pellets.
Oh, yes, I know the chamber, especially the air hole, needs to be clean, but no major problems..

Again, thank you all for your comments. It is a great help both to have a group to share the hobby with and also can ask for help.

Trainmaster.

PS: I have used this name on most of the train boards I am on - not model but 
history and railroad. I didn't expect to get the user-name. Now, I have a long way to go to live up to it!


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## gunrunnerjohn

You might look into JT-MegaSteam NADA smoke fluid. It has no scent and was designed specifically for folks that react to the various scents of standard smoke fluid.


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## Big Ed

Trainmaster said:


> Thank you EVERYONE for your help. I have to go to the new-comers column and introduce myself.
> 
> Knowing, practically nothing about liquid smoke, I put more drops plus a "load" on the NYC 783 Hudson....yes, it started smoking, again. It really put on a show. It stunk up the room so bad, our siamese cat was resting by the door and moved down the hall.
> 
> I think I can only run that locomotive for about 20 minutes. I have a severe case of asthma - the aroma from the smoke pellets do not bother me, but this engine was "smoking up a storm" and I had to get out of there.
> 
> No, there is not a switch to "turn off the smoke." But, in the past, I may have run the units empty.
> 
> Some of you may remember - don't put a "pill" in the engine until the last one was consumed. Today, I learned it is just the opposite with liquid smoke.
> 
> So glad to find this forum. As I love trains, I will be very active on it. And, again,
> I thank those of you who replied, or yet to reply, as I have a long ways to go learning about liquid smoke. Do something wrong, and it is either a new resistor or a unit.
> 
> With the pellets, the worse thing to go wrong is a break in the nichrome wire. Then,
> I just re-wire it. It happened only twice in 61 years. I say that means a lot for pellets.
> Oh, yes, I know the chamber, especially the air hole, needs to be clean, but no major problems..
> 
> Again, thank you all for your comments. It is a great help both to have a group to share the hobby with and also can ask for help.
> 
> Trainmaster.
> 
> PS: I have used this name on most of the train boards I am on - not model but
> history and railroad. I didn't expect to get the user-name. Now, I have a long way to go to live up to it!


Welcome aboard, there is something to be learned by all.
No one can know everything.

I like the old pellet smokers.:thumbsup:

No switch? 
Someone will tell you to add one, right someone?
You think all smoke units would have one, as to the best of my knowledge all of them will burn up if you run them dry.
Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Maybe they want you to burn them up so they get more business?:thumbsdown:

Yes stick around and ask away, we all can learn something.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Any liquid smoker will cook the wick if it's run dry, so Ed is correct. You either need to have the ability to turn it off or keep fluid in it at all times.


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## Big Ed

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Any liquid smoker will cook the wick if it's run dry, so Ed is correct. You either need to have the ability to turn it off or keep fluid in it at all times.


I wonder why they ALL don't have a switch.

Job security?


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've never understood why some of them don't have a switch. I had a couple of the cheap 8000 series locomotives that I added the switch to, they've since gone on the sale block, so they're no longer a problem.  All of the stuff I have has a switch.


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## Trainmaster

Big Ed, Gun Runner John:

When I bought the GS-4 Daylight Lionel 8307 and the Hudson 8406 in 1984, I knew nothing about smoke units. 

I was entirely used to pellets, where one is reminded to use them conservatively so the chamber does not become clogged up.

It was only *THIS* week, that I learned about how a liquid smoke unit operates.
That is probably the reason the other units burned out. One repair technician said it is better to have too much fluid in then not enough. Hardly any will fry the unit.

PS: oh, one more question - could a SPST switch be installed between the resistor and the E-Unit it is connected to?

From what several Lionel service stations have said, today's Lionel locomotives have a thermostat installed that shuts down the unit if there is not enough liquid.

The locomotives from 1790 through 1990 do not have that!

Add to that, an ignorant old-timer "smoke pellet"-preferred operator like me, who has no knowledge of how to use a liquid smoke unit, it is a wonder that the liquid units worked at all! The first Lionel liquid smoke-generated locomotive was #746 Class-J 4-8-4 (except for the 700-E, #5433, the postwar Lionel never got their numbering right), and there were no guidelines then.

There is probably more to learn. Big Ed, John, and all you experienced liquid smoke operators, maybe you would be kind enough to post some guidelines as to the use of liquid smoke units. All the manuals, tech books, etc, I can find are on post-war Lionel (again, pellet smoke) and liquid smoke units are here to stay! A book needs to be written about them, but some pointers would be appreciated by a dummy like me!

Thanks so much

Trainmaster


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## Trainmaster

I did not see the PS:, so I will try again....

Can a SPST small switch be added to the resistor line between the resistor and where it takes its power?

Thanks

Trainmaster


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yes, a simple SPST switch is all that's required to switch the smoke unit. I happened to find some ideal candidates at a Dollar store, I bought the three for a dollar flickering tea lights. I also got three CR2032 batteries and three flickering LED's that I'm using for firebox glow with real fire flicker. 

Lionel service station guys lie in this case, there is NOTHING in any that I've ever opened, including a couple of recent Legacy locomotives, that shuts them down when they run out of fluid.

Here's a quote from a 2011 Legacy U-28C User's Manual.



> Note that operating your locomotive's smoke unit without smoke fluid will cause damage to the heating element.


Doesn't sound to me like they are automatically sensing low fluid. 

You just need to keep them wet, but not too wet. If you overfill them, you can get fluid all over everything. The first result in fan driven smoke units is the bearings on the little fan get gummed up and the fan stops. Then it spills over and makes a mess.


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## Trainmaster

Thanks, John....

I am not surprised to hear that. Don't you think it is safer to put a drop or two
in my locomotives before I run them? If they have sat around for awhile, 5-8 eyedrops?

The models I have were before this legacy stuff. My concern with this high-tech modern 
locomotive materials is that (1) fan units will quit after the motor burns out (2) if a short circuit happens, it can fry the electronics in a circuit board and (3) if a circuit board goes bad, the whole thing has to be replaced, hoping parts are available.

For those reasons, I would rather stick to the E-units and simpler functioning locomotives.
Let's see if these so-called "hi-tech" locomotives last for 60 or more years!


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## tjcruiser

Trainmaster said:


> Th
> For those reasons, I would rather stick to the E-units and simpler functioning locomotives.
> Let's see if these so-called "hi-tech" locomotives last for 60 or more years!


I'm with you on that one ... the old-school stuff is bulletproof, with a little t.l.c. and prudent care. I'm running 80 yr old stuff on my end ... mechanical gizmos still work just fine.

TJ


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## Kwikster

tjcruiser said:


> I'm with you on that one ... the old-school stuff is bulletproof, with a little t.l.c. and prudent care. I'm running 80 yr old stuff on my end ... mechanical gizmos still work just fine.
> 
> TJ


I love my old steamer built around 1953, a little tlc and purring like a kitten. Can anything possibly smell as good as 60 year old Lionel smoke pellets? I have the originals that came with the train


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## tjcruiser

Abner,

Not to steer you away from pellet smoke generators, but they can, on occassion, get pretty gunked up. Should you ever want to convert a unit over to oil, our member Erkenbrand did a fabulous how-to thread that explains everything in detail, with stepwise photos. Well worth a read, if only to get a great under-the-hood peek at smoke unit mechanics ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5580

TJ


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## Trainmaster

*TODAY's LIONEL VERSUS LIONEL UNDER COWEN*

I don't know about today's Lionel - I realize they have to be innovative, 
come with new releases in different road names, and introduce new models cast from modern tools/dies.

But, is all of this "high tech" necessary??? Having a remote control that, to me, takes practically a college education to run, sophisticated circuit boards that can go out from a short, no simple switch to turn off the smoke if the chamber is empty.................

Not to mention everything made in China!

Many Lionel dealers and service centers say that Lionel has good quality control.

All I am aware of is that in the old days, things were built to last! Today, with all the gimmicks and gadgets, they are built to sell. 

A bad e-unit? Take it apart, clean it and maybe straighten out a bent tooth.
Parts are available if anything else is needed. Motor? Proper lube, oil and t.l.c. keeps it purring! It can be rebuilt if necessary.

A circuit board today? Replace it - too complicated to fix, not to mention labor cost. This is the disposable age! Motors in modern Lionel? They use capacitors to keep a "smoother voltage" in speed. Capacitors are like battaries - they have a limited shelf life! Let the locomotive sit, and the caps run down. Never had that problem with Pre or Post-war Lionel.

I will admit that after 1954, Lionel had to make some quality control cuts, while today's Lionel's axle wheels are tapered and run smoother with less strain. 

I have a number of "new" Lionel operating cars - they are made well. It is the technology in the Locomotives that I have questions about!

Maybe I'm too stubborn, but for me, the fun was operating the trains, from the transformer, like they did in the Lionel Showrooms of the past - not using another "remote control" that could fail if a battery goes weak - and what would that failure due - might cause a collision resulting in damage to trains.

I will stick to what I have - it has worked all these years and will continue to do so. I understand Williams, Atlas, Mike's Train House and others make good locomotives without all this extra unneeded things - I have a DVD of the
last modern Lionel Showroom layout, closed a few years ago, with this high tech crew talk, and they do not even have the terms correct. I know this fact because I used to "play train" with SP as stated in my introduction.
I heard one crew talk in the DVD saying "Train No______now ready for take-off." What is it going to do - speed down a runway and rotate into the air?
They NEVER talked like that on passenger trains. The conductor says "Highball" to start and "That Will Do" to stop. It is possible a large depot might say "Last call for train No______, but you won't hear any nonsense like what was on the tape.

TTOS used to sell a tape of good simulated train passenger announcements.
One can take a cassette recorder and record them, if one is fortunate enough to live near a large depot. The results are better than these chips which will last *how* long????


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## Trainmaster

*Smoke units*

T.J. Cruiser:

Thanks for the information. Yes, I agree that old smoke pellets CAN and do get gunked up! Usually, there are plenty of parts to fix it and a little patience cleaning them up. I won't argue that liquid smoke is cleaner, and works well when someone knows how to use it (which I didn't until this last week) but
I have repaired enough smoke pellets to keep them going without worrying if enough smoke material is in it.....speaking of which, pellets are the opposite of liquid - they got gunked up because kids put too much pellets in them instead of waiting for one to be completely used up. 

That is my problem - being used to pellets, the care is the exact opposite of liquid - don't use too many pellets versus don't let the liquid wick run dry!
If the locmotive sits, give it a few drops of liquid, at least. You don't do that with pellets.

And it is thanks to all you good folks for that education on the care and operation of liquid smoke. 

By the way, that presentation on how to convert smoke pellets to liquid is better than the CCT article. Well explained!


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## Trainmaster

*Sos - another help please*

Hello, again, everyone:

I am sorry to bother you all with posting this request, but I am so frustrated.

Let me explain....

Do any of you good folks have the 60" passenger cars made by *WIlliams* (not Lionel)?

If so, you will notice cheap plastic wheel trucks underneath the cars - nothing compared to the metal-spring ones Lionel has.

The cars come apart, won't stay put - you run them and one car separates because the knuckle ends tend to drop down.

I hope I am explaining this problem right.

I tried the same Scale Hudson I wrote about the the smoke problem, and today, it only made an inch or so, and a Williams NYC car derailed.

I switched the set and put on Lionel 1950's era passenger cars and no problem! It just ran perfectly.

I have a Williams Amfleet car set - same problem!

I have an idea some of you will suggest changing out the wheels to Lionel.

THANK GOD I got a 1984 Lionel Daylight Passenger Car Set (with Locomotive 8307 GS-4). That problem, again, does not exist.

Any of you who have experienced or know about this problem with trucks on Williams passenger cars, I would love to hear from you. Is there a way to fix this problem, other than changing out the trucks?

And, for the future, I will NOT buy Williams Passenger Cars...they look nice, 
just as nice as Lionel. It is the trucks where the problems are.

I don't own any Williams freight cars, so I don't know if that problem exists.
Maybe this week, I will switch the car bodies of the Williams to the Lionel Passenger body and see how it works.

Thank you so very much for all your help.

PS: The Amfleet Williams passenger cars are pulled by a F-40PH - so the Diesel-Electric model has the same problem with the cars.

I look forward to some replies. Thanks so very much for your time and help.

Trainmaster


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## gunrunnerjohn

FWIW, there was only a pretty brief period that Williams used plastic trucks. I have several sets of Williams passenger cars, and they have very nice diecast trucks and couplers.

Remember, Lionel had a bunch of passenger car sets with plastic trucks, it's not restricted to Williams.


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## Kwikster

Trainmaster,

I have a few Lionel cars made during the MPC era with plastic trucks, a couple even had only one pair of metal wheels per truck (1 axle) the other wheels set had metal axles and plastic wheels. You can find diecast trucks as replacements, the new ones are even sprung to replicate "real" trucks. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/O-Gauge-Couplers-Trucks-Wheelsets-s/2026.htm This is just a sampling of what is out there. Heck, now trucks can be bought with a FRED on them that actually functions!!!! More and more of the newest stuff from Lionel, Weaver, and the others use this style of rolling gear on their cars. Guess they discovered we want quality and are willing to pay a little more for a good piece.

Carl.


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## Trainmaster

To GunRunner John:

Yes, I remember that Williams used those plastic trucks because of a copyright infringement against Lionel. It is good that they use die-cast now.

The 1970's Lionel Heavyweight Passenger cars were plastic and used plastic trucks - but it is the knuckles, not the couplers that are the problem. In the case of Lionel, they were screwed in not to lag and I have no problem with those.

The Williams, in duplicating very nicely the 60" aluminum passenger cars used those plastic couplers that would stay put and would easily slip out of the 
adjoing coupler. This is where the problem is. Not so much that the trucks are plastic, but the couplers would not line up and drop down.

Carl: Thanks for your input. I know about box cars with FRED's. Leave
Fred to Ethel - I miss the cabooses!

Yes, both Lionel and Williams used plastic trucks - it is not the trucks but the failure of the knuckle couplers to align on the Williams Passenger cars that is so frustrating. I have tried a number of tactics, but the couplers have to sway to negotiate a curve, and if held in by electrical tape, they will derail, and if left alone, they become uncoupled by means of one coupler dropping down. I wish there was a way to make them level. I will check out that link. 
Do you know if those couplers will negotiate 031 curvers and work on 60" passenger cars?

Thanks so much

abner


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## Kwikster

Trainmaster said:


> Carl: Thanks for your input. I know about box cars with FRED's. Leave
> Fred to Ethel - I miss the cabooses!
> abner


Abner,

Actually I've heard them called Fred and Wilma on the railroads. Why? IDK, but they likely remember Flintstones more than I Love Lucy :laugh:

I would assume that the Rail Express Car version would work on the passenger cars, but not sure as I haven't tried them. Perhaps someone else has.

Carl


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## Trainmaster

*Williams passenger cars*

Carl:

You might find this hard to believe, but I never watched the Flintstones!

Anyway, I experimented and figured the way to fix the Williams knucklers.
You have to bend and adjust the rivited attachments so the coupler is against the car. It should not move.

I ran them for an hour and had no problems
That makes my day! Now, I can adjust the Amtrak cars tomorrow.

I appreciate all your help, everyone. I am glad I found this board.
I am sure that there are very interesting threads to read.

Goodnight everyone....

and goodnight, Mrs. Calabash..........whereever you are!

Trainmaster


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