# Micro-layout questions



## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

I'm considering getting into model trains, but my main concern is my space is extremely limited.

The main space I really want to cram a layout into is 18 inch x ~50 inches (the desk is about 60" wide but I am currently using it and don't really have much space elsewhere for the essentials).

Everything I have read leads me to believe this is less than ideal for N-scale since the curve radius minimum is recommended at 9 3/4 inches. I have built a couple layouts with 8 1/2 inch curves and was thinking this would be sufficient with some smaller locomotive and freight cars (my idea is for a simple coal industry with a "hidden" staging area out back to give the illusion of cars going back and forth). However, I am kind of torn between this circular layout and something more point-to-point style.

The main issue I have with point-to-point is that I don't really have time to be running these trains very often, so I would want something continuous running. That then lead me to learning about Arduino control of the track and (being a programmer) I actually think I could fairly easily work in a continous running point to point setup this way. This would save me a _lot_ of width allowing me to expand lengthways with more industries or maybe a simple town. I even found a layout using a track above that I could use to automate a coal cart dumping coal to the lower cart then going around picking up the loaded cart & repeat the process - this sounds very intriguing (while challenging) to me, and would likely require a bit of custom fabrication to get a proper automated hopper car working reliably with little maintenance.

I'm not sure if it is worth the hassle though - I'm mostly concerned with the magnetic uncouplers and would likely have to use rare earth magnets to uncouple them automatically (no kadee uncouplers in N-scale ) -I have heard of a lot of reliability issues with magnetic uncouplers, but apparently most of that can be solved by adding friction to the train wheels. Since I would essentially be automating the point-to-point layout this would mean _a lot_ of magnets and testing to ensure this works reliably. Thankfully, since I can easily expand length-wise, I should be able to make most/all of the magnets on straight track and using sensors have a fairly reliable location to uncouple - but there's still a lot to go wrong there.

Anyway, any ideas on what to do in my circumstance? If I was to have a circular track I would _love_ to have some passenger trains but do not think that is realistic with my space. So that leaves me to either 1) automated point-to-point using arduino (obviously with an override switch somewhere so I can run operations myself), or 2) circular layout with some automated operation to keep it more lively (with the same said override switch).

I suppose I could go Z-scale but the hope is to expand to a bigger house some day and I don't want to be stuck in Z-scale and not have as much options for purchase.


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

As a side note - why are steam tank locomotives so damn hard to find (especially in N-scale)? I get everybody wants the big trains but I just want to run a simple industry here and a tanker would be ideal IMO since I'd probably be running backwards nearly half the time.

Maybe H/O point-to-point is the way to go for now


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Unfortunately, you fall into a common trap among newcomers: you ask a question which essentially says, "tell me what my preferences are" or "tell me what I would enjoy more". No one can do that. At the end of the day, whatever you choose to do has to appeal to and satisfy only one person: you. No one else can make these decisions for you because everyone is different.

That said, we can use our experience to help guide you. My first thought is this: given the space you have available, trying to create a loop in anything larger than Z scale is going to be frustrating. 9-3/4" really is the minimum: it will essentially limit you to running short (no more than 6 drivers, maybe not that) steam, 4 axle diesels, and rolling stock less than 50 scale feet. That pretty much rules out any passenger equipment used from about 1890 on. 9-3/4" radius curves will require a minimum width of about 21", allowing for some margin between the tracks and your layout's edge (if something derails, you don't want it leaving the layout completely and taking the Long Plunge of Death to the floor). Especially if you're willing to do the programming, I think a narrower layout with some automation and switching options would be more rewarding. Personally, I find that just watching a train run, whether back and forth or in a small circle, gets very old after about 5-10 minutes. But again, that's me.

However, I don't think you're going to have much luck with automatic, software controlled uncoupling operations. While these devices are good, they're not infallible, and I think you be constantly sorting out issues after just a few automated back-and-forth trips. I don't actually recommend adding friction to your wheels, as that might damage drivetrain components on your locos. At the very least, it's going to require a lot of trial and error. Not my idea of fun, but it may be right up your alley.

Turnouts, on the other had, are much more easily controlled, and this is certainly something you can explore to create different automated back and forth trips, even on a narrow point-to-point layout. More length would give you more options for different tracks without adding a lot of width, and allowing for longer trains.

As far as availability of locos, well, that's the industry. Manufactures, wholesalers and retailers can't afford to support lots of dead inventory, so the trend is to smaller production runs of more variety (and higher cost). If you see something you want, best to order or purchase it at the earliest opportunity. Look at the used market too (eBay, if you're on-line).

Hope that helps.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Kadee couplers (or whatever they are called in N scale) are the
best on the market. But it is important to know their limits. For
example, don't expect them to auto couple on a curve...you actually
have to hand guide the knuckles to couple in that situation.
Uncoupling is also 'iffy' and takes some practice to get it to work.
The under track super magnets work well if installed properly. But
they are 'one way'. You can't use them in a 'main' track, cars passing
over it will uncouple. There is a
Kaydee electromagnet under track uncoupler. It works when you
push a button and is used on 'main' lines.

And, finally, any hope of automating a coupling/uncoupling operation is not
likely to be successful. Even with good couplers and uncouplers
most of us have found the need for the HOG (Hand Of God) method.
I used it in HO all the time but I don't know how well you could
use it in N Scale. I suppose you could grind a plastic or wood rod down
to fit in the tiny N scale coupler knuckles. Some have fashioned a
sort of 'fork' holding magnets which uncouples when placed over the coupling.

Don


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I was going to suggest Z scale too, but your N. American locomotives and rolling stock is extremely limited, the scale is expensive relative to N & HO, and most all of it comes from Germany.

You will have to compromise somewhere in either scale or layout area.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

DonR said:


> Kadee couplers (or whatever they are called in N scale) are the
> best on the market. But it is important to know their limits. For
> example, don't expect them to auto couple on a curve...you actually
> have to hand guide the knuckles to couple in that situation.
> ...


Don;

The couplers Kadee makes in HO & larger scales, are called "Micro-Trains" couplers in N & Z scales.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> I'm considering getting into model trains, but my main concern is my space is extremely limited.
> 
> The main space I really want to cram a layout into is 18 inch x ~50 inches (the desk is about 60" wide but I am currently using it and don't really have much space elsewhere for the essentials).
> 
> ...


steamgoeschocho;

You're really boxed in at 18" depth, unless you can add a deeper section of benchwork (perhaps a fold down temporary one) for loops at one or both ends. My own N-scale shelf layout is only 16" deep along most of its length, but has deeper (24" at one end and 36" at the other) sections at the ends for the return loops. There is a diagram of my layout in the "Layout Design" section of this forum. Its at the end of a thread called, "Here are the layouts of some forum members."

The main operational fun part of a switching type layout is operating it yourself. Since the tracks have to be short, the fun is in running small locomotives slowly and switching cars. Many choose to operate the turnouts with manual ground throws from Caboose Industries too, in order to more closely duplicate operation on the prototype.

However, its your layout, and in this digital age, you may well be able to automate everything. (To me that's like the difference between the fun of building a model, and just watching someone else build a model.)
You might look at British Railway modeling. The Brits have had to master the art of getting the most operation out of minimal spaces. Ian Rice has written books for Kalmbach Publishing on the subject of fitting railroads into tiny spaces.

Strictly speaking you are correct that there are no longer any N-scale couplers actually branded "Kadee", but the same type of high-quality magnetic couplers are made in N-scale (and Z-scale) by Micro-Trains.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

The maximum distance couplers can swivel side to side is called the 'gathering range'..
If you go past the GR with overly tight curves you'll likely derail or topple the cars or loco.
Since you are going point to point can you not instead construct some sort of mostly straight, S, or zig zag main with a couple spurs off it perhaps going up and over/down and under..to industries/Sta. along the 50" run ?..This would greatly alleviate your curvature concerns...


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

Thanks for the input guys.

I'm actually pretty set on getting this automatic de-coupling working. If I have to go with remote decouplers so-be-it, but I really feel the magnetic uncouplers should work fine with some very precise measurements on where to end the loco & reverse it to properly decouple the thing (of course with the mentioned issues on adding drag & whatnot to improve reliability). I have heard a lot about this needing to be done on straight track and the complications of doing this on the main track, which leads me more and more down the point-to-point layout. I understand most have more fun doing this sort of stuff manually, but personally since my time is limited I'd rather put that time into programming the automation - I get more fun personally out of that sort of stuff anyway, and then enjoying my work over a beer.

I'm thinking I will just try to buy a minimal N-scale set & then try my hand at some automation. If I find it too unreliable, I might expand to a miniature circular layout.

Does anybody have any ideas on the best track for this sort of thing? I've heard great things about Piko track but it seems like it takes some work for the turnouts to be remote controlled - is there a better setup for remote controlled turnouts? I really want the smoothest & most reliable track here regardless of cost. I've also heard good things of Kato unitrack but personally don't really find the track very inspiring looks-wise.

Also, good to know that the micro-trains uncouplers are generally reliable - I was a little worried since everybody seems to suggest the Kadee stuff so highly, but I'm not sure HO would work for me (_especially_ if I go to a circular layout).

EDIT: Sounds like Peco turnouts are highest quality. I'll probably just use those along with the "Tortoise" switch machine which seems the most reliable from what I've researched. I'll keep you guys posted how the build goes 

EDIT EDIT: Hmm looks like this new walthers product is interesting - Switch-Machine - it even comes with a DCC decoder which is interesting and probably more reasonable cost-wise if I end up going DCC.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You have given yourself a very challenging assignment. The total automation
of a model train switching operation is a mind boggling proposition. I have had a very
complex HO DCC combination continuous running and switching layout utilizing
2 yards and a number of spurs for rail freight using businesses. So I am
aware of the many starts, stops, and reverses needed for coupling and
uncoupling. Before you do anything you should get a DCC 'test' train (in the
scale you intend using) with turnouts
and uncoupling devices so you can manually do coupling and
uncoupling. That way you will see what moves it takes
to do the job. You'll see that you will need occupancy detection at each
point where you will be 'uncoupling' so the computer knows where the
loco is...the loco will have to back the train car to be uncoupled 
so it's couplers are precisely over the magnets and stop...the loco will then have
to do a precise 'reverse', to uncouple and then to pull away. The couplers
must be precisely aligned laterally and vertically as well as
free acting. (Kadee offers a plastic
tool for this purpose) A similar action
is coupling...it must be done at a very slow speed on a straight track.

To automate your plans you must use computer programming thus your
layout must be digital...DCC. There are two types of turnout 'motors'...
twin coil fast acting...or 'stall motor' (Tortoise) slow acting...either can
be controlled by DCC but the method of control is quite different.
The computer will need programming that can
determine where the loco is (occupancy detection)...send digital signals to the loco 
telling it to start, stop, reverse and
determine speed, This will have to be coordinated with the turnouts to
complete the actions.

A basic on DCC:
The track is 'live' with approximately 14 volts modified AC at
all times. It also carries the digital signals from the
DCC controller. There are commercial devices that provide
computer/DCC controller connections. Make sure the
DCC system you select has this capability. The loco wheels
pick up the power and digital info and send it to the onboard
decoder. Track and loco wheel cleanliness is imperative for
smooth operation.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> Thanks for the input guys.
> 
> I'm actually pretty set on getting this automatic de-coupling working. If I have to go with remote decouplers so-be-it, but I really feel the magnetic uncouplers should work fine with some very precise measurements on where to end the loco & reverse it to properly decouple the thing (of course with the mentioned issues on adding drag & whatnot to improve reliability). I have heard a lot about this needing to be done on straight track and the complications of doing this on the main track, which leads me more and more down the point-to-point layout. I understand most have more fun doing this sort of stuff manually, but personally since my time is limited I'd rather put that time into programming the automation - I get more fun personally out of that sort of stuff anyway, and then enjoying my work over a beer.
> 
> ...


You're welcome to try automated coupling and uncoupling. But count me as a skeptic who will be extraordinarily impressed if you get it to work consistently.

There is really no issue automating any turnout. The ones that come with switch machines already installed are usually junk (Kato isn't, but you probably don't want to use roadbed track for this project). Those Walthers machines are a good system, and they are merely a knockoff of the originals made by Tam Valley Depot. But either works well. Circuitron Tortoise machines or Pecos own units are also excellent choices.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> Thanks for the input guys.
> 
> I'm actually pretty set on getting this automatic de-coupling working. If I have to go with remote decouplers so-be-it, but I really feel the magnetic uncouplers should work fine with some very precise measurements on where to end the loco & reverse it to properly decouple the thing (of course with the mentioned issues on adding drag & whatnot to improve reliability). I have heard a lot about this needing to be done on straight track and the complications of doing this on the main track, which leads me more and more down the point-to-point layout. I understand most have more fun doing this sort of stuff manually, but personally since my time is limited I'd rather put that time into programming the automation - I get more fun personally out of that sort of stuff anyway, and then enjoying my work over a beer.
> 
> ...


steamgoeschocho;

Any decent brand of flex track should work. (Micro-Engineering, Peco, Atlas) If you plan to use Peco turnouts, I would use their flex track too. This would be especially important if you use Peco's "code 55" track or turnouts. Those come with rather strange rail that has two rail bases. It will connect readily to any brand of code 80 flex track, but requires major Dremel surgery, and soldered rail joints to connect to anybody but Peco's code 55 track. (see file "All about Turnouts" below for details) Peco makes a good twin-solenoid switch machine ("point motor" in British terms) It snaps directly onto the bottom (or side, depending on the model of "point motor" you choose.) The under-the-turnout model has a set of optional electrical contacts that can be slipped on, and used to show which way the points are thrown. I would think that would be useful for automation. The Tortoise, and Walthers, switch machines have built in contacts also.

You mentioned "Piko track" maybe that's just a typo, and you meant Peco. There is a separate company from Peco, called Piko. I don't know if Piko actually makes N-scale products. I see it advertised with larger scales at times.

Micro-Trains and Kadee were once the same company. The two brothers that owned it split the company years ago. Kadee now makes HO-scale & larger products and Micro Trains makes N-scale & Z-scale products. The quality of the Kadee and Micro-trains couplers and uncouplers is comparable, and they use the same basic design. Kadee couplers are metal, and Micro-Trains couplers are Delrin engineering plastic, but both are excellent couplers.


I suggest you do go with DCC. It provides much better, and more accurate slow-speed performance, which will help with your need for accurate positioning of locos & cars. There are also several brands of optical train detectors that would help stop a loco on a specific spot. IRDOT is one brand. DCC can also be interfaced with computers, smart phones & Bluetooth devices. I would think that would also help your automation scheme. 

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

DonR said:


> You have given yourself a very challenging assignment. The total automation
> of a model train switching operation is a mind boggling proposition. I have had a very
> complex HO DCC combination continuous running and switching layout utilizing
> 2 yards and a number of spurs for rail freight using businesses. So I am
> ...


Thanks for the extraordinarily helpful reply. Good to hear you have tried this in practice and it seems to be working for you.

One thing I disagree with you on is the necessity of DCC. Yes, it should make the whole thing simpler, but I should be able to replicate the same thing using DC + relays (assuming only a single loco will be running which will be a constraint in my case).

I do agree I will need quite a lot of sensors and/or very precise math and easing to ensure reliable coupling/uncoupling. I am very interested in this challenge


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

> steamgoeschocho;
> 
> Any decent brand of flex track should work. (Micro-Engineering, Peco, Atlas) If you plan to use Peco turnouts, I would use their flex track too. This would be especially important if you use Peco's "code 55" track or turnouts. Those come with rather strange rail that has two rail bases. It will connect readily to any brand of code 80 flex track, but requires major Dremel surgery, and soldered rail joints to connect to anybody but Peco's code 55 track. (see file "All about Turnouts" below for details) Peco makes a good twin-solenoid switch machine ("point motor" in British terms) It snaps directly onto the bottom (or side, depending on the model of "point motor" you choose.) The under-the-turnout model has a set of optional electrical contacts that can be slipped on, and used to show which way the points are thrown. I would think that would be useful for automation. The Tortoise, and Walthers, switch machines have built in contacts also.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your reply. Good to hear micro-trains and kadee were part of the same company at one point, that makes me feel much better since Kaddee doesn't offer N-scale.

I am very new to the hobby, so I'm sure my mispelling of "Peco" was a mistake. It sounds like that is the correct track maker I'm interested in.

I will definitely consider DCC but at first will probably try out DC to at least get my feet wet. I'm planning on buying as much as possible with DCC compatibility since I know the upgrade will likely be inevitable at some point. Bonus points is there is an Arduino library to directly interface with DCC which would keep the programming simple. The _one_ thing I might buy without DCC is, ironically, my locomotive since I'm looking at mainly tankers & switchers which are very scarce in N-scale and don't seem to much come with DCC compatibility OOTB but I can always retrofit I believe (I just need a DCC decoder for the motor right?).

If anybody has any suggestions on a more feature-rich tank/switcher (preferably with sound & DCC) in N-scale that would be good to know. I'm not sure if that is available, though.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I thought I was the old foegey who won't consider the latest 
fandangles...but I see you are in that club also...With all of the
easy to use advantages of DCC you are thinking DC. With DCC
you have digital control of each loco's direction and SPEED. While
direction is easy to control with DC, automating speed control
in DC is going to take some doing. Speed control in a switching
layout is very important unless you want your loco to run at 
'walk' speed always. And it's all so easy with the available
programable devices that you can connect to your DCC controller.

One thing that I've failed to mention...there are available DCC
controlled knuckle couplers...tho I'm not certain they are
available in N Scale. These would solve some of the problems
of automated uncoupling.

The standard decoders control motor direction and speed as well
as lights. Some have additional capabilities such as the
DCC couplers I mentioned. They are quite small, hardly
larger than a thick postage stamp with wires attached.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> Thanks so much for your reply. Good to hear micro-trains and kadee were part of the same company at one point, that makes me feel much better since Kaddee doesn't offer N-scale.
> 
> I am very new to the hobby, so I'm sure my mispelling of "Peco" was a mistake. It sounds like that is the correct track maker I'm interested in.
> 
> ...


A small switcher with DCC onboard, or even space for a decoder, is going to be a very scarce item in N-scale. Bachmann makes a four-wheeled (0-4-0) steam tank engine, and a six-wheel (0-6-0) steamer with a tender which does nothing but tag along, so the loco will run without the tender. They also make a six-wheeled Plymouth Diesel switcher, and a Davenport diesel switcher. Unfortunately all these locos, were/ & maybe still are, very poor-running locomotives. I got fed up with Bachmann many years ago, and stopped buying their (junk) products. However, the buzz on the forum is that their current locos are very much improved. Unless there has been a near miraculous improvement in the gear ratios of any of these old dogs, their minimum sustainable speed was in the 50 scale miles per hour range. A tad fast for switching! 
I think your best bet for a smooth-running @ slow-speed switcher is a Kato brand GP -7 or GP-9 or a Kato RS-1, RS-2, or RS-3. All are models of mid-sized diesel "road switchers" that could be used either for switching cars in a yard, or hauling trains on the main line. All are relatively small, eight wheel locos which are superb runners. There are also "drop in" (easy to install) DCC decoders made to fit them, or you can buy one with DCC factory-installed. Perhaps even with DCC and sound. Many DCC decoders in current production locomotives are "dual mode" meaning they will run on DC and also run (better) on DCC. That might be a good feature to look for.

There are two basic types of DCC decoders. With sound, and without. The decoders without sound operate only the motor and headlight. This type of decoder tends to be less expensive than a decoder that includes sound. To convert a DC locomotive to DCC, you have to insulate the motor from the locomotive's metal frame. Many DC only locomotives, especially the older ones, use the metal frame as part of the path for electricity to get from the rails, up to the motor. With DCC, the rails feed both power, and digital control signals, from the rails to the input of the decoder. The decoder outputs run the motor, and lights. On a sound decoder, there are output wires for a speaker. Yes, that's another space issue. To have sound, you would need to mount a tiny speaker inside the locomotive, or in the tender behind a steam locomotive, or inside a "dummy" diesel second unit. (One with no motor or gears) Another option for sound, which might work well for your tiny layout, would be to have the sound decoder and speakers outside the loco, as in concealed in buildings, or under the layout. I plan to use this system. The photo shows the underside of one of my layout sections. There are two of those amplified speaker enclosures used with computers mounted in the back corners.

There is another advantage to DCC, that I mentioned before. Using the 128 speed steps option, you can make a locomotive crawl at 1 scale mile per hour, or less. DC control typically won't do this. The locomotive also makes a huge difference in slow smooth running. One of the tests of a good locomotive is not how fast it will run, but how slow. There is an excellent book on DCC called "Basic DCC wiring" by Mike Polsgrove. It covers the whole subject well, in simple text & many photos. You can order it on Amazon.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

To TFs point about bachmann quality, I can start that they are vastly improved and the current stuff is quite good. I'm HO my bachmann locos creep along nicely. I'm out of town but I do have a new N scale steam loco waiting to be tested as well. 

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

DonR said:


> I thought I was the old foegey who won't consider the latest
> fandangles...but I see you are in that club also...With all of the
> easy to use advantages of DCC you are thinking DC. With DCC
> you have digital control of each loco's direction and SPEED. While
> ...


I didn't think about how hard speed would be to modulate in pure DC... hmmm I suppose if that is a big issue DCC is definitely the way to go. My thinking was just reducing the voltage out onto the main lines would work for speed control, but I guess I can see how that could be pretty imprecise. I suppose with all the extra I'm spending on everything else, DCC wouldn't really be too much more...


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

traction fan said:


> A small switcher with DCC onboard, or even space for a decoder, is going to be a very scarce item in N-scale. Bachmann makes a  four-wheeled (0-4-0) steam tank engine, and a six-wheel (0-6-0) steamer with a tender which does nothing but tag along, so the loco will run without the tender. They also make a six-wheeled Plymouth Diesel switcher, and a Davenport diesel switcher. Unfortunately all these locos, were/ & maybe still are, very poor-running locomotives. I got fed up with Bachmann many years ago, and stopped buying their (junk) products. However, the buzz on the forum is that their current locos are very much improved. Unless there has been a near miraculous improvement in the gear ratios of any of these old dogs, their minimum sustainable speed was in the 50 scale miles per hour range. A tad fast for switching!
> I think your best bet for a smooth-running @ slow-speed switcher is a Kato brand GP -7 or GP-9 or a Kato RS-1, RS-2, or RS-3. All are models of mid-sized diesel "road switchers" that could be used either for switching cars in a yard, or hauling trains on the main line. All are relatively small, eight wheel locos which are superb runners. There are also "drop in" (easy to install) DCC decoders made to fit them, or you can buy one with DCC factory-installed. Perhaps even with DCC and sound. Many DCC decoders in current production locomotives are "dual mode" meaning they will run on DC and also run (better) on DCC. That might be a good feature to look for.
> 
> There are two basic types of DCC decoders. With sound, and without. The decoders without sound operate only the motor and headlight. This type of decoder tends to be less expensive than a decoder that includes sound. To convert a DC locomotive to DCC, you have to insulate the motor from the locomotive's metal frame. Many DC only locomotives, especially the older ones, use the metal frame as part of the path for electricity to get from the rails, up to the motor. With DCC, the rails feed both power, and digital control signals, from the rails to the input of the decoder. The decoder outputs run the motor, and lights. On a sound decoder, there are output wires for a speaker. Yes, that's another space issue. To have sound, you would need to mount a tiny speaker inside the locomotive, or in the tender behind a steam locomotive, or inside a "dummy" diesel second unit. (One with no motor or gears) Another option for sound, which might work well for your tiny layout, would be to have the sound decoder and speakers outside the loco, as in concealed in buildings, or under the layout. I plan to use this system. The photo shows the underside of one of my layout sections. There are two of those amplified speaker enclosures used with computers mounted in the back corners.
> ...



Hmmm.. I thought I found a remote DCC coupler in N-scale but I suppose I could be wrong. I have been jumping around between HO and N-scale research quite a bit. I could definitely jump to HO scale if I keep things relatively straight and P2P but since I'm restricted to <60" of width I would like to go as small as possible. I'll definitely have to try the magnetic uncouplers and see how reliable they can be with everything straight and level (I do not anticipate doing any uncoupling on main track or anything curved or non-level).

I will definitely take a look at the Kato switchers, thank you for that. Good to hear all the input, I was not anticipating slow speed being the main issue here (and since I _am_ planning on running everything as slow as possible this is a high concern of mine now).



vette-kid said:


> To TFs point about bachmann quality, I can start that they are vastly improved and the current stuff is quite good. I'm HO my bachmann locos creep along nicely. I'm out of town but I do have a new N scale steam loco waiting to be tested as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk


Can you by any chance get me a speed reading? I'm not too familiar with the speeds these locomotives can go but any input would help here. I was originally planning on going Bachmann but these quality issues have me concerned.

EDIT: I'd like to again thank you all for the help. All this 3rd party input should really help minimize my costs & frustrations since I really prefer the "buy once-cry once" approach...


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## steamgoeschoochoo (Aug 11, 2021)

traction fan said:


> A small switcher with DCC onboard, or even space for a decoder, is going to be a very scarce item in N-scale. Bachmann makes a four-wheeled (0-4-0) steam tank engine, and a six-wheel (0-6-0) steamer with a tender which does nothing but tag along, so the loco will run without the tender. They also make a six-wheeled Plymouth Diesel switcher, and a Davenport diesel switcher. Unfortunately all these locos, were/ & maybe still are, very poor-running locomotives. I got fed up with Bachmann many years ago, and stopped buying their (junk) products. However, the buzz on the forum is that their current locos are very much improved. Unless there has been a near miraculous improvement in the gear ratios of any of these old dogs, their minimum sustainable speed was in the 50 scale miles per hour range. A tad fast for switching!
> I think your best bet for a smooth-running @ slow-speed switcher is a Kato brand GP -7 or GP-9 or a Kato RS-1, RS-2, or RS-3. All are models of mid-sized diesel "road switchers" that could be used either for switching cars in a yard, or hauling trains on the main line. All are relatively small, eight wheel locos which are superb runners. There are also "drop in" (easy to install) DCC decoders made to fit them, or you can buy one with DCC factory-installed. Perhaps even with DCC and sound. Many DCC decoders in current production locomotives are "dual mode" meaning they will run on DC and also run (better) on DCC. That might be a good feature to look for.
> 
> There are two basic types of DCC decoders. With sound, and without. The decoders without sound operate only the motor and headlight. This type of decoder tends to be less expensive than a decoder that includes sound. To convert a DC locomotive to DCC, you have to insulate the motor from the locomotive's metal frame. Many DC only locomotives, especially the older ones, use the metal frame as part of the path for electricity to get from the rails, up to the motor. With DCC, the rails feed both power, and digital control signals, from the rails to the input of the decoder. The decoder outputs run the motor, and lights. On a sound decoder, there are output wires for a speaker. Yes, that's another space issue. To have sound, you would need to mount a tiny speaker inside the locomotive, or in the tender behind a steam locomotive, or inside a "dummy" diesel second unit. (One with no motor or gears) Another option for sound, which might work well for your tiny layout, would be to have the sound decoder and speakers outside the loco, as in concealed in buildings, or under the layout. I plan to use this system. The photo shows the underside of one of my layout sections. There are two of those amplified speaker enclosures used with computers mounted in the back corners.
> ...


Ack! I just remembered Kato doesn't really have Steam locomotives do they? My main goal here is a steam locomotive in N-scale, and would rather not go Diesel (if can be avoided) since I would much rather have an older scene.

It really seems like most people must go for the big steam locomotives. I suppose diesel would _really_ make the most sense with my layout, with the most prototypical switching backward and forward, maybe I just have to re-think what my theme will be...


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The typical 'speed' in a real life switching situation is how
fast the conductor can walk...which is pretty slow...so your
interest would be the 'crawl' capability of whatever loco you get.
All of my HO Bachmans could run at walk speed. Some models can
go so slowly it's hard to see that they are even moving. Don't know
anything about N scale loco creep abilities.

Your 'chores' would be so much simpler if you could go with
HO DCC. All of the devices, locos, DCC couplers and other
goodies are available in HO...while some are not in N Scale.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> Ack! I just remembered Kato doesn't really have Steam locomotives do they? My main goal here is a steam locomotive in N-scale, and would rather not go Diesel (if can be avoided) since I would much rather have an older scene.
> 
> It really seems like most people must go for the big steam locomotives. I suppose diesel would _really_ make the most sense with my layout, with the most prototypical switching backward and forward, maybe I just have to re-think what my theme will be...


Kato does make a very few N-scale steam locos, but no small ones that I know of. They are pretty much a diesel brand.

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> Ack! I just remembered Kato doesn't really have Steam locomotives do they? My main goal here is a steam locomotive in N-scale, and would rather not go Diesel (if can be avoided) since I would much rather have an older scene.
> 
> It really seems like most people must go for the big steam locomotives. I suppose diesel would _really_ make the most sense with my layout, with the most prototypical switching backward and forward, maybe I just have to re-think what my theme will be...


For what you seem to want, a small steam switcher, (ideally a saddle tank engine) with DCC + sound, I think an HO-scale, point-to-point, switching layout is what you're going to end up with.
A "circular layout", with a loop for continuous running, is simply not practical on an 18" deep shelf, at least in any scale larger than 'T' -scale. If you went that small, you could not fit DCC, sound, operating couplers, or any of the other things you want, so I suggest skipping the whole "circular layout: idea, and start planning an HO-scale switching layout. That's just my opinion. Its your layout so you are free to continue trying to fit a 12"-to-the-foot-scale model of the Titanic into a shoe box if you enjoy that sort of thing. 😄

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Chops124 (Dec 23, 2015)

What are your thoughts on narrow gauge? Always thought TT was a great compromise between HO and N, but it never took off. Those TT guys are a breed of their own.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

TT is a scale of it's own. Narrow gauge track and equipment for TT is not easily found and it's all in Europe. It took off very well in eastern Europe and the Soviet Block. It never really took off here in the States where it was invented.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

steamgoeschoochoo said:


> I am very new to the hobby, so I'm sure my mispelling of "Peco" was a mistake. It sounds like that is the correct track maker I'm interested in.


You did not mis-spell PIKO. PIKO is an eastern German manufacturer of high quality European outline locomotives and rolling stock. You just got the two companies confused.

PIKO Spielwaren GmbH


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