# Steam models vs diesel in HO



## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

Hey guys, 

I wanted to know what you all thought of maintenance on steam vs diesel HO scale models. My experience with model railroading is limited and I've never owned an HO steam model. I am in the process of building a roughly 110' length ceiling layout in my basement (which I posted about a few weeks back). In terms of reliability, long term functionality, maintenance, etc, how does steam vs diesel stack up? (For my setup I'm not concerned about sounds or artificial steam/smoke)

Obviously steam has more moving parts and variable wheel sizes. Do these factors make them more prone to failures, grime buildup, derailment on (15" radius) curves, noisiness, etc.? In terms of gear ratio/wheel size when running at slow speeds are they more prone to 'sticking' at slower speeds from a dead stop or a fraction-of-a-second voltage drop on a dirty section of track? Which type runs smoother at lower speeds and which better on track that is starting to get a bit dirty?

I love how vintage steam engines look and the additional moving parts are a definite plus. But I'd prefer the setup require as little maintenance as possible. When I have parties and company I simply want to turn the setup on and just let it run consistently and the same speed for an evening every now and then with as little potential problem as possible. I'd like a steam model but if it will cause more frustration and require more maintenance down the line then I may stick with a diesel model. 

What are your thoughts? 

Thanks!

-Brian


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

"When I have parties and company I simply want to turn the setup on "
I only suggest, Brian, that you turn it on before your guests arrive. 
Seems like, whenever you want to show someone, it wont crank...
I know, that's not an answer...


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Reliability takes into account allot: build quality, serviceability, availability of replacement parts, etc.

All that said, generally diesel locomotives are going to be more reliable just due to the fewer moving parts. 

Despite this, I'm sure folks call give you a recommendation for a reliable stream or diesel loco.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Not many steam locos that are going to run well on 15" radius curves (in HO).
A few switchers, perhaps...


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

IMO, (and experience) neither has any reliability-advantage over the other.
However, with a 15" radius, you'll be limited to shorter models of each.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

IMHO, you should change your plans to go with 18" radius instead of 15". I have a short section of 15" radius I built so I could get a 0-4-0 or four wheel diesel into a certain spot. Most of my other locos derail there, some shorter ones derail sometimes. My SW7 Athearn make it through all the time.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Plymouth diesel, or an 0-4-0T for sure.


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## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

Thanks for the advice. I want the track to hug the corners of the room as much as possible so I want to stick with the 15" radius track, plus I already installed the molding the track will sit on, and it's already measured and positioned in certain areas so 15" radius track sits centered on the molding. It looks like I'll be sticking with diesel. Just out of curiosity can anyone provide a link to any 'short' steam models that may have less difficulty on 15" radius turns? I'm assuming that the length of any diesel model won't matter because they use a standard wheel base on the front and back of the model? Thanks again for the advice!


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## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

LateStarter said:


> Plymouth diesel, or an 0-4-0T for sure.


Just saw your post after posting my last message. Thanks!


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Just be advised, that smaller locomotives will pull less cars. The Plymouth & 0-4-0T might pull 3 or 4... at the most. Adding extra weight inside the shell might help.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Your railroad would be much more impressive to your guests with a longer steam locomotive.
An 18" radius curve is only 1-1/4" further out from the corner of the wall. For that matter, a 24 " curve 
is less than 4" further out from the corner. That's my opinion...


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

You have firm limits designed and already built. That means the negotiation between any locomotives and your rails will be strictly limited to engineered tolerances. For steam, about the most you might...MIGHT...be able to run on your tight radii, which are substantially less than the recommended minimum by the NMRA for HO scale, will be a small 0-6-0, and my money is on it not working. Not reliably. You may find it running okay on some parts, but it will derail often and not bring you pleasure. So, you are down to a very tiny, and light, 'docksider', a 0-4-0. That will pull perhaps three boxcars on level track, but little else.

Steamers do require more maintenance if you want them to last most of your lifetime. Their various outer movement parts, the valve gear and rods, need lubing and some occasional ridding of little fibers that get stuck in there. Inside, they are identical to the diesels. A frame atop which sits a motor, gear tower, and some electronics and weight.


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## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

Those restrictions don't apply do a diesel model type wheel base, correct? Should I be able to run a diesel properly pulling around 8 cars on 15" radius track without worry of derailing?


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

I don't know (offhand) of any locomotive models that would pull 8 cars, and operate reliably through 15" curves.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Did you read my post?


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

LateStarter said:


> I don't know (offhand) of any locomotive models that would pull 8 cars, and operate reliably through 15" curves.


I just tried my Athearn Super-power F7A and boxcar with body mounted Kadees and it worked OK. My section is too short to hook up 8 cars, but I may have some sectional track in a box to build a test track. Perhaps the mini-layout members will have an answer soon?


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Just had a thought...
The Bachmann 2-truck Climax will pull 6 to 8 cars, and reportedly operates on a 15" radius.


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## The USRA Guy (Apr 26, 2020)

Yeah, theres not much you could fit on a 15" radius other than a very small 0-6-0 and the 0-4-0's. Maintenance wise, it is easy to access parts that you will need to service with both steam and diesel.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The quality of your trackwork is going to be the driving force on what will run reliably on your layout. It's too bad that you've already installed 15" curves, because that radius is hugely limiting in HO. Very few locos are going to handle those reliably. Even if you can coax the loco around, many locos and cars won't have enough play in the couplers and / or trucks to go around those curves, and may be pulled or shoved off the rails.

The actual functioning of the locos is pretty much a wash. Anything built in the last 10 years will run well on straight and level track (with the exception of the occasional dog).


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## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

I had no idea that 15" rc would be such a problem and limitation. I haven't actually laid track yet, just mounted and cut the molding so the curves would lay centered. I bought packs of 15" rc track but only opened one so far. I may order a pack of 18 and 22 rc and see how it fits, might be able to fudge it a bit or redo the corners of the molding altogether. How come they even make 15 rc if it's out of spec and incompatible with almost everything in HO?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I'm curious where everyone gets the idea that small locos can't pull a lot of cars? As a kid in the 70's, my first train included a Tyco 0-4-0 which I used for many years to pull 10-15 cars through 18" radius curves. I was probably a decade into the hobby before I realized that you needed to do maintenance on locos or clean the track, so that little loco saw a pretty hard life.

@MoSeS_1592 -- As for 15" curves and a ceiling layout, have you considered On30? Basically this is a narrow gauge which uses HO track but is built in O scale so the features are larger and easier to see. These frequently model logging railroads from the 1800's, so the loco and cars are shorter and can easily traverse 15" curves (most layouts I've seen have 12" curves but only 3-4 cars, larger curves will allow more cars). You could also build your shelf on a slant so that scenery could be seen from the floor, and it would fit right in with the logging theme, although you might want to include some sort of fence to catch any derailments.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

"include some sort of fence to catch any derailments. "
It's about a scale 650 foot drop to the floor...
But less if it's On30...


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It can be used for trolly and streetcar lines abd also some mining or forestry areas that are not narrow gauge. It is seldom (if ever) used for mainline railroading.


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I have a bachmann spectrum 0-6-0 tank loco that will run on 15” curves. It will pull 8 LIGHT cars but not a whole lot more. They can be bought at trainworld.com they are no longer the spectrum line though. Click on bachmann then click on ho and then steam. I can include some pictures of the locomotive shortly


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

Both locos are 15” and 8 car capable on level track. Keep it in mind they won’t pull big rolling stock very well but a 40’ box car or 50’ gondola or a tank car or something would do well. The steam loco has pulled 4 of my weighted cars up a 2% grade coming out of my mine on the layout. It doesn’t pull a lot but it does it’s job. The other issue you may have is length of rolling stock. Don’t plan on having passenger cars going through 15” curves without issue. The cool thing about small locos is they’re cheap and you can double head them to make a realistic look pulling your train


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

I think I feel bad for Moses, he's getting pushed, pulled and stretched in about 30 directions at once... 🤣 
I mean, if I had a ceiling layout, I would definitely not.......


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

🌈 Gosh, you have a basement. Does it have to be a ceiling layout ? Are you going to be happy always having to cock your head upwards to see only one side of the trains from 8' below them ?.. Could you not instead build a 1' wide shelf layout around the room at say, collar bone height, and have a few sidings and spurs/a small yard/engine house, some light scenery/a bridge, a tunnel ? Or do you mean a ceiling layout where you'll be climbing a ladder up to a small flooring and chair that you'll be sitting at, running the trains ? 🛤🌄🌵
*PS*.. Here's yet another trouble spot:
Since they're not O or G scale but small HO, you will not be able to see them unless the track is right AT the inside edge of the board above you...But putting trains at the very edge is a 99% guarantee that one day you'll have a string-drop as they all fall to the floor..Then moving track further in (2-3") will force even more a sharp curve than your 15"r...And to correct this, you'll be forced to use a much wider surface/board/plexiglass than what you've been planning on !! Capeesh ??
One beauty of model trains is that the physics of the model is exactly the same as the 1:1 scale, far as tolerances go.. 🛤🚦


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I feel bad for our OP. He has gone ahead with plans that he might now be regretting. If he could see his way to redoing his roadbed, but with at least 18" curves, he would open up his future to a lot wider range of possibilities. I know that about 90+% of us don't ever stick with one loco and one string of cars. It isn't four months before we gotta have another locomotive, or some more cars, and that's where our original purchases and inclinations diverge from what we originally had in mind. 

Cardinal Rule in model trains: the wider your minimum radius anywhere on your layout, the more future possibilities you can contemplate and later enjoy.

Another thing: while this is going to be entirely moot for a layout operating at head level or higher (because you won't notice it...), tracks naturally sinuate. Tracks in the real world are curve arcs connected by tangents. Everywhere. If you would like to enjoy anything like a realistic look, don't run your trains on 10' tangents connected by tight widdo curves. Seriously, have gentle sweeping curves here and there. Near where your main/corner curves have to be, start with a wider curve from an S-curve and you might be surprised to find that, even in narrow shelves, you can eke out 22" and wider radii. You'll thank me for that tip in about eight months when you decide that the Bachmann K4 Pacific 4-6-2 with four heavyweight passenger cars trailing it can zoom easily, reliably, and quickly around any curve on your layout.


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## The USRA Guy (Apr 26, 2020)

Shdwdrgn said:


> I'm curious where everyone gets the idea that small locos can't pull a lot of cars? As a kid in the 70's, my first train included a Tyco 0-4-0 which I used for many years to pull 10-15 cars through 18" radius curves. I was probably a decade into the hobby before I realized that you needed to do maintenance on locos or clean the track, so that little loco saw a pretty hard life.
> 
> @MoSeS_1592 -- As for 15" curves and a ceiling layout, have you considered On30? Basically this is a narrow gauge which uses HO track but is built in O scale so the features are larger and easier to see. These frequently model logging railroads from the 1800's, so the loco and cars are shorter and can easily traverse 15" curves (most layouts I've seen have 12" curves but only 3-4 cars, larger curves will allow more cars). You could also build your shelf on a slant so that scenery could be seen from the floor, and it would fit right in with the logging theme, although you might want to include some sort of fence to catch any derailments.


I find that a lot of my older locos have plenty of power. I have an ancient Model Power RS-11 (no traction tyres) that pulls a bit more than some of my newer ones from other brands.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

* MoSeS 1593* Please see my PS in post #27...(added later)...M🚦


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

i have a small layout with a 15" curve. I intentionally have small steam locomotives with tightly spaced axles and blind drivers to accommodate it.

the tight curve is less a problem with shorter diesels with 2 axle trucks (e.g. GE boxcab).

one problem with steam locomotives is when electric pickup from one rail is from the tender requiring a reliable electrical connection through a detachable drawbar. A diesel doesn't have this problem with pickup from one rail on one truck and the other rail from the other truck

the number of cars pulled by a loco depends on the weight of the loco, not the number of wheels and diesels tend to have more space available for weight.

curves also have an effective grade due to the additional friction. The rule of thumb is the effective grade of a curve is 32/R or 2.3% (32/15) for a 15" curve, 1.8% for 18" radius.

we measured 2.4 oz to pull 30 cars weighing ~4oz, or 2% of the weight. In other words, the force to pull a train of cars on level ground is roughly equal to a 2% grade. So half the max number of cars can be pulled up a 2% grade and a bit less than half around a level 15" curve with an effective grade of 2.3%.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*gregc.* Simply put: Curves add more drag to a train's engine. A curve on a grade adds that much more drag... What an engine can pull on a level straightaway grows less and less per track curvature and steepness of grade... 
Not sure what you mean by "reliable electrical connection through a detachable drawbar." I'm guessing you mean the Situ. usually with DC analog brass steam, the tender (with pickup) only making contact to motor via a fixed pin which goes through a hole in a metal drawbar, no wires involved.. Otherwise, todays DCC steam uses no drawbars to conduct current whatsoever...Or am I missing what you mean?....


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Regarding passenger cars, look into Harriman (Lionel just started producing the model power versions} or Overton coaches are nice and short and should be fine on 15" curves.


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

telltale said:


> *gregc.* Simply put: Curves add more drag to a train's engine.


yes, quantifying



telltale said:


> usually with DC analog brass steam, the tender (with pickup) only making contact to motor via a fixed pin which goes through a hole in a metal drawbar, no wires involved.


yes, even w/ DCC decoder installed


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## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

You are setting up for a specific circumstance, I'd stick to the plan now that it's in place. A train like that sounds like one you want to turn on and let run while entertaining, not a bad idea but for most railroaders who want to do things with their layouts it is quite limiting. Anyway, my suggestion would be to check out the Dewitt Clinton train, all the cars and engine are short and light, it shouldn't have any problem with 15" curves. It is also colorful, something you are going to want on a train you can only see from five feet. The other old timer engines Bachmann put out might work too. I don't think they still make them so you might have to get them online auction. Otherwise you may have to borrow engines off friends to see if they run well. Six coupled engines with no flange on the center driver are feasible as well. If the train is just going to run you might be able to take some weight off the cars and use cars with couplers attached to the trucks to improve performance.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Out of spec it is not. It's in the same tolerances as the other radii. The problem is one of geometry. You're trying to force a rectangle around an arc. Both the trucks and the car body are fixed rectangles, and each affects the ability of the locomotive to corner. The longer the rectangle, the greater the outward pressure on the contact points (wheel flanges), and eventually that force becomes too great and forces the flange up over the rail. The length of the trucks is fixed, so the longer the truck (more axles), the larger the radius needed to keep you from exceeding the limit. Steam locos, which have main drivers that are generally all fixed in the same rectangle, tend to perform worse than diesels (where the trucks can rotate) in this respect. The car body length also affects the equation, because although the trucks can swivel, the fixed length of the body still has to follow them around the curve. The car body also overhangs the rails more on sharper curves, meaning it requires greater clearance beside the rails. 

Manufactures often cheat a bit, by putting some slop in the trucks or axles, or by allowing the trucks to pivot more than they do on the prototype, but at the end of the day, it's still a scale model, and you can't beat physics. If it's any consolation, even 18" curves are fairly limiting. Remember that our models use curves so tight (in scale terms) that a full-sized railroad would never even consider it.


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## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

Wow thank you for all of the informative responses, I wasn't expecting this much feedback to my question and it is very appreciated. Just a side note my basement has a drop ceiling with a height of only 7' so the train is sitting just a bit more than 6.5' above the ground, pretty close to eye level and visible. The molding is right around 2" width so with the track centered there isn't really anything obstructing the view of the train, just the track. And yes, I'm fully aware and have already accepted the fact that at some point in the future something will inevitably derail go careening towards the ground (which is carpeted, fortunately) . Hopefully this is a VERY rare occurrence. After reading all of this and giving it some thought I've decided I'm going to modify the corners of my layout/molding and go with 18" rc track instead with a diesel engine. I'll post pictures in the future when the project is complete.

One more unrelated question not really worth creating a new thread for: the rubber ring grips for the wheels on an old HO diesel I had growing up (probably 35-40 years old) are gone. Is there anywhere to find replacements and what is the proper name for this part? There is a slot/groove in the metal wheel to retain the ring.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Those are called traction tires. You don't find them on too many new-production models any more. You can find them on eBay some times, or orthodontic elastic bands make a good substitute. You can also buy a product called Bullfrog Snot, which is basically very thick rubber cement. You use it to "paint" new tires on the wheels. It's especially useful for steam locomotives, where you might not want to pull the tie rods off to slip a new tire on.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

1) "Hopefully this is a very rare occurrence".. (2) " the ground (which is carpeted,fortunately)".
Both these won't save you from catastrophic damage. Rare does not insure your number isn't up sooner than you imagined. And neither will a carpet prevent an expensive loco from being demolished falling 6.5 feet !
How about a rethink; putting the trains right at eyesight (not over on below)..When you have guests you can have a removable clear plexiglass protector about 4"-8" tall with wood channels to stand it in...
Lastly, being completely honest here, I don't think if trains are in any way above their heads they will continue to pay much attention to it, especially if they're not train buffs..If right at eye level you can scenic it a bit. What about 2 tracks;2 trains running same or opposite directions ?.... 🛤🌄🛤🌵


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

Bullfrog snot is great if you ask me. I used it on a couple of locos that were light and didn’t gain much traction. Boosted an old rivarossi 2-10-2 from 8 car trains to 25 car trains then the motor didn’t have enough power to make it up my grades. If you’re going with an 18” radius curve you’ll be able to run the older f units as well as gp units and even some mid sized steam like a 4-6-2 or maybe even a 2-8-0 at the top end of the sizes. I think you’ll be much happier with your decision. The main thing is build something you’re going to enjoy! HAVE FUN WITH YOUR BUILD!


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I think that, if nothing else, a train running around the perimeter of a room at, or somewhat above, head height is going to be fun. However, it will soon become a nuisance due to its noise and poor access. It will soon become a chore to have to stand to view it, or to endure not viewing it because it's so high and other things in view command attention in their own right, not least of which are others sharing the space who would rather converse or have peace 'n quiet. Just giving you fair warning that this idea that, while appealing for some undefined reason (undefined as yet for we who are trying to help you out), it is likely to get old rather quickly.

As the others are gently suggesting, and you seem to be patiently dealing with them, their reservations notwithstanding, you will like longer what you craft with a bit more thought, planning, care, and craft. For example, you needn't do anything more at the height you are talking about than to carefully lay track so that derailments are going to be exceedingly rare, and to power them, and thence to run trains. But, if you were to figure out how to make more of it visible, you'd want to have it a bit more realistic looking, and that would mean maybe a tunnel through a small hill, a bridge, or at least some grass and bushes here and there.

It's your nickel, your dream, and you have to be content with what you create ultimately for reasons you know to be important. We have learned that the execution needs some number of varied considerations if you want to be able to enjoy your work and expenses of money and time for more than maybe three whole weeks. Generally, the more up-front thinking, predicting, and planning you do, the happier you'll be eventually, but also longer. In that respect, I am very pleased that you have asked for some guidance. It suggests you are indeed careful and considerate of possibilities that you don't know enough to ask about. So, good on ya.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

For traction tires, several people sell them on ebay, and here's a link to a site I found with a quick google:






HO SCALE TRACTION TIRES - DIESEL/ELECTRIC/STEAM LOCOMOTIVE , HO LOCOMOTIVE ENGINE TRACTION TIRE REPLACEMENTS







lovetrainhobbies.com





Don't know them, or anything about them. Just posted this for information purposes.


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## MoSeS_1592 (Dec 16, 2019)

Thank you!


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

MoSeS_1592 said:


> I love how vintage steam engines look and the additional moving parts are a definite plus. But I'd prefer the setup require as little maintenance as possible. When I have parties and company I simply want to turn the setup on and just let it run consistently and the same speed for an evening every now and then with as little potential problem as possible. I'd like a steam model but if it will cause more frustration and require more maintenance down the line then I may stick with a diesel model.
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


I'm a little late to the party. In my short experience back in the hobby I've found the most reliable running (at realistic speeds) start-it-and-forget-it locomotive is a lash-up of _two_ powered, speed-matched diesels (with two-axle trucks because of your radii). I have a pair of Proto 2000 GP7s and a pair of Bachmann GP9s that I would start up and go to bed and not worry... by themselves - no rolling stock behind 'em. 

Speaking of rolling stock (which I don't think has been mentioned yet), for start-it-and-forget-it operation you're going to want your rolling stock to be perfectly "tuned" so it won't uncouple or derail. I'm still learning about car tuning, so I'll just offer that proper coupler height is important cheap-o plastic trucks and wheelsets ain't gonna get it. Hopefully the more knowledgeable will throw in.


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