# Cleaning Legacy Lionel Trains and Accessories



## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi All - 

It is nice to be here and I am looking forward to what I will be able to learn from you all.

I have just been reunited with some very old Lional trains and accessories that I used as a child. We are talking about 50 years of separation here.

Everything is in very poor condition. For the most part, I am talking about years of basement dirt and dust and surface rust, with some deeper rust as well. A few of these pieces are Tinplate, and the rest date from the 50s or early 60s.

I am interested in preserving all this; it should also be quite straighforward to getting everything operational. However, it seems to me (and I am open to opinions to the contrary) that the originality should not be lost. I am OK with that, but I would like to clean off the accumulated dirt and remediate enough rust for everything to be usable.

I know that in the automobile and motorcycle worlds that there are fairly gentle ways of rust removal, including molasses and some fancy new products. The dirt can probably be removed with a gentle washing. The dried out wiring is easily replaced.

What I said in the paragraph above is what my gut tells me will work. However, since I have never seriously restored any of my old Lionel stuff, I thought that I should check with you all first.

FWIW, I do not care if everything still looks old. Patina is good, and it is only original once. I would like to clean it and deal with the scaly rust, if there is a way to do that that does not destroy these things for future generations.

Thanks in advance.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Here are a couple of quick cell phone photos.

All of the rocket and missle launcher parts seem present, except for the rockets themselves.

It was quite something seeing all these tonight, after 50 years.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

For much of the non-electronic postwar stuff (plastic shells), you can wash in warm soapy water, and dry thouroughly afterwards. Use soft toothbrush to degunk.

After cleaning and drying, apply a light coat of Pledge to the plastic shells to add some nice sheen. Buff gently with a soft flannel cloth.

For prewar tinplate, I'd go more carefully ... GooGone applied with lots of Q-tips. I would not wash in water. You won't be able to get rid of the tinplate rust, other than resorting to a full strip/repaint, which is certainly possible, but perhaps not your intent.

In either case, remove electronics, if possible, before cleaning (motors, bulbs, etc.)

Lots more details to offer ... maybe on a per-case or per-part basis when you're ready?

Cheers,

TJ


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> For much of the non-electronic postwar stuff (plastic shells), you can wash in warm soapy water, and dry thouroughly afterwards. Use soft toothbrush to degunk.
> 
> After cleaning and drying, apply a light coat of Pledge to the plastic shells to add some nice sheen. Buff gently with a soft flannel cloth.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the reply. I agree that the postwar plastic pieces are far less challenging. One question about using Pledge or any other silicone-based products: is silicone contamination an issue for potential future resorations? Probably not, but thought I'd ask as most body shops will not let a silicone-based product within 100 feet of their doors.

The tinplate stuff is definitely going to be interesting. The original paint is mostly intact, and other than the dirt, rust is freckling through. Would a mild rust neutralizer, like molasses, kill the rust, leaving the paint intact? I could then protect what is left with a wax or - heaven forbid - a light mist of clear paint.

I also got a large quanity of postwar O gauge track. The rails and ties are rusty. Would a dip in an acid removal bath (molasses or electrolysis) hurt the paper insulators? If not, this might be a good way to bulk clean these items.

I will wash a couple of plastic parts tonight, and will post before and after.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Here is a before and after. The cell phone pictures do not communicate the difference in appearance.

The first shot is a box car body as received.

The second is after washing. I first tried dishwashing soap and warm water. That got rid of the loose dirt but the plastic was still darkly stained. I then went over it - lightly - with Tilex bathroom cleaner (green bottle, chlorine free). This removed the stains but, as you predicted, left the finish quite dull. All of the details, like the fine painted numbering, are intact. I guess a shot with Pledge or some other product might be in order. 

What do you think?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

For rust, you may want to invest in a rotary tool and some scotchbrite. Most of it appears to need a little cleaning.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Nice collection you have. When cleaning the PW cars be careful around the lettering, it's usually only a dye and comes off easily. There is nothing better than bringing the classics back to life. When cleaning tracks, wheels and other pieces don't use steel wool or sand paper it can cause problems.

Hope you have an enjoyable time bringing it back to life.

Carl


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

T-Man said:


> For rust, you may want to invest in a rotary tool and some scotchbrite. Most of it appears to need a little cleaning.


I am fortunate to have a pretty good shop, so yes I can Dremel. But that can be labor intense for each piece: As everything is extensively rusted, I am hoping that we can come up with a more production-based approach.

I have a fine soda blaster that might work or the undercarriages, trucks and track. But even that is time consuming, although it is safe and will not remove anything it shouldn't.

Even better would be a mild immersion in a rust remover. Molasses (from the feed store) works extremely well and is gentle if a little stinky. Electrolysis might also work.

Either of these methods might be the trick for all the old track (there is a lot that is not in the photos). My concern is whether the dips will have an untoward effect on the paper center rail insulators.

Maybe I should dip a couple of track pieces to see what happens.

It would also be nice if I could dip the cars and accessories. Molasses does not affect paint or plastic (or at least it usually does not, I have never tried it on Lionel stuff).


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Kwikster said:


> Nice collection you have. When cleaning the PW cars be careful around the lettering, it's usually only a dye and comes off easily. There is nothing better than bringing the classics back to life. When cleaning tracks, wheels and other pieces don't use steel wool or sand paper it can cause problems.
> 
> Hope you have an enjoyable time bringing it back to life.
> 
> Carl


Thanks, Carl. It looks like it will be a lot of work and as I mentioned in another reply, this is the tip of the iceberg. After the dust and rust, there are bent metal parts, broken plastic parts, moving assemblies that are frozen, wiring with cracked insulation, etc., etc. So there is al lot that will have to be done. That said, it is wonderful knowing that these old family relics are close to continuity for my own young kids.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nikola,

I assume you're talking tubular track?

If your time is limited / valuable, I'd encourage you to invest it wisely in the locs, cars, and accessories ... and leave the track alone. Old track (often in much better shape) is easily purchased at train shows, swap meets, etc. Leave the rusty stuff alone, and go find some better cheap replacements.

I've used a very DILUTED solution of muriatic acid to remove rust from bare metal. It's nasty / dangerous stuff, but it does eat through rust quite readily. Keep it away from any paint, though!

My two cents ...

TJ


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Nikola,
> 
> I assume you're talking tubular track?
> 
> ...


I have read the threads on the pros and cons of old track. I understand your point and it is not a bad one.

That said, my rusty old track (tubular and Super O) is, well, MY rusty old track. Not something from a swap meet. Since it is/was mine as a child, I feel a responsibility. What is the purpose of it having survived 60 years (some of it was old when I got it) if I am going to trash it? I have no problem filling in the gaps with new track, but I intend to give this old track the old college try.

Molasses is acidic and even gentler than dilute muriatic acid. It is commonly used in automobile restorations since it inexpensive, effective and, since it works slowly, does not really hurt paint. I know that dumping the track in a vat of molasses will take care of the rust. I am not sure if the paper insulators will be affected. Does anyone have experience with what happens to the paper insulators when they get wet or hit with something else that is water-based?


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

One thing I did notice was a bit of "super O" track, now that is certainly worth the time and effort to return to use. Hard to find in any kind of worthy condition and not be pricy.



Nikola said:


> Molasses is acidic and even gentler than dilute muriatic acid. It is commonly used in automobile restorations since it inexpensive, effective and, since it works slowly, does not really hurt paint. I know that dumping the track in a vat of molasses will take care of the rust. I am not sure if the paper insulators will be affected. Does anyone have experience with what happens to the paper insulators when they get wet or hit with something else that is water-based?


I would avoid those methods at all costs. A better choice (again labor intensive) is a green scotch-brite pad and elbow grease. I believe the joiners for super-o are still available. There is no need to really clean the sides of the rails, mostly the tops for conductivity. My track is tubular and 60 years old working perfectly.

Carl


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Kwikster said:


> One thing I did notice was a bit of "super O" track, now that is certainly worth the time and effort to return to use. Hard to find in any kind of worthy condition and not be pricy.
> 
> I would avoid those methods at all costs. A better choice (again labor intensive) is a green scotch-brite pad and elbow grease. I believe the joiners for super-o are still available. There is no need to really clean the sides of the rails, mostly the tops for conductivity. My track is tubular and 60 years old working perfectly.
> 
> Carl


You raise a good point. Much of the rusty track is like you describe, and in fact we have been using it for years with, exactly as you say, green scotch-brite on the running surface and, where needed, new pins.

However, this new batch is really rusty. Like salt water rusty. I have no idea how it got this way as it and I have been separated for 40+ years. Just handling it gives loose rust flakes - but the underlying material is still sound. I am leaning to trying molasses on one or two pieces, and if that kills the paper insulators I will have to look for another solution (pun intended).

I agree about the Super O and if I am not mistaken, molasses will not affect it at all.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nikola,

If the track is really rusty, you need to consider whether there's enough plating material (chrome?) lefton the track or not. It may be all gone, in which case, even if you completely de-rust the track to nice shiny metal, chances are it may quickly re-rust, again.

I'm not trying to pull you away from the "I want to save MY old track" philosophy ... I can completely relate to that. But think about the end produce (bare steel vs. original chrome plated) and how that fits into your planned usage.

Separately ...

We had a long discussion about using a "burnishing wheel" to clean / derust tubular track. I have a wheel myself, and have used it with encouraging results. See the thread here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8828

... and my specific evaluation of the wheel on track, here ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=97413&postcount=94

Regards,

TJ


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Nikola,
> 
> If the track is really rusty, you need to consider whether there's enough plating material (chrome?) lefton the track or not. It may be all gone, in which case, even if you completely de-rust the track to nice shiny metal, chances are it may quickly re-rust, again.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links, that is an interesting option.

All of the tin plating is long gone from this track. Perhaps I should be more clear about what I consider acceptable. I am not looking for shiny tin plated track to come out of this exercise. Not even dull/shopworn plated track. I am perfectly fine with the track appearing dark. It is the patina of age; nothing wrong with that. Rerusting might happen, but probably not as the track would be in a low-humidity situation going forward, and there are plenty of ways to keep it from rusting, anyway (even products like Gibbs can be used).

What I want to accomplish is to remove the loose rust and even the surface rust. Chemically. The wire wheels/burnishing pads/polishing pads would be really easy for me as I have a three-phase 5 HP polishing lathe. But then I am handling each piece individually, and when you get into a production situation, after a while you get careless and the buffer catches a tie and either twists or pulls the track apart. I can see it happening. Also, you probably cannot burnish Super O unless extreme care is taken not to burnish the plastic.

Chemically, I can do the entire batch at one shot. Molasses could take a couple-three days, maybe more. Electrolysis would be twice as fast.

Vintage automobile parts that are rusted paper-thin are saved every day with molasses. Go figure.

I have to get to the feed store and get some, and then test it to see if it harms the paper insulators on the tubular track. I can probably even dip the switchtracks as I do not think the molasses will harm the wiring.

BTW, I am not sure that the bottle of molasses sitting in your kitchen pantry behaves the same. The product I am talking about is the grade used for animal feed. I am not a farmer or rancher, so I do not know the details of possible differences between kitchen grade and feed grade.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

CHemically you need to take the track apart. Tubular will lose the insulating paper. If you have super O maybe since oven cleaner would work. Good ole scotchbrite is best with elbow grease. Lots of track just takes more time with breaks.


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## seabilliau (Dec 12, 2011)

Nikola,
It sounds like whatever you plan to do with the track in regards to restoration is going to be very labor intensive. I would simple ask, "Is the juice worth the squeeze". It may be your old track, but is cleaning all that track really what you want to be focusing on right now?


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

seabilliau said:


> Nikola,
> It sounds like whatever you plan to do with the track in regards to restoration is going to be very labor intensive. I would simple ask, "Is the juice worth the squeeze". It may be your old track, but is cleaning all that track really what you want to be focusing on right now?


No, and that's why I do not want to do it piece by piece. I will find a way to do it in bulk. A dip that does not hurt the paper, or perhaps soda blasting, seem like good bets.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

T-Man said:


> CHemically you need to take the track apart. Tubular will lose the insulating paper. If you have super O maybe since oven cleaner would work. Good ole scotchbrite is best with elbow grease. Lots of track just takes more time with breaks.


Yes, that's what I am afraid of. Does anyone know what type of paper is used to insulate the center rail?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

3 by 5 cardstock will work or construction paper.

Electrical tape will work too.


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## railhound (May 6, 2012)

I would stay away from Abrasives. Try Evaporust. I know Advance carries it, but sure others do as well. It ONLY removed the rust, but you will have to disassemble items to sit in the liquid.

I've used it for many cleaning. Even got a rusted solid knife I found in the ground to open again! Paint on top of rust though will fall off as rust desolves.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

railhound said:


> I would stay away from Abrasives. Try Evaporust. I know Advance carries it, but sure others do as well. It ONLY removed the rust, but you will have to disassemble items to sit in the liquid.
> 
> I've used it for many cleaning. Even got a rusted solid knife I found in the ground to open again! Paint on top of rust though will fall off as rust desolves.


I've heard of that stuff but have never tried it. It's kind of pricy, isn't it? I have to get to the feed store for some molasses.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Well, it's been a few years.

I ended up using a pedestal-mounted wire wheel. I used a worn wire wheel that was on the soft side.

I ran the track lengthwise at a 45 to get each side of the crown of the rail for the two outside rails. Then I ran the wheel lengthwise between the outer and inner rail. Then a skim coat crosswise across all three rails.

This left the tops of the rails and the sides of them where the wheel flanges run nice and shiny. If there was still zinc plating on the track, it was still there.

I left the sides and ties as-is because quite frankly it looks more prototypical and I also like the patina. I have after all picked up a lot of patina over the years; why not my trains?

I also touched up the pins on the wire wheel but gently. I did not remove pins that were well in place.

Be careful - use a light touch - because if the wire wheel catches the track it will launch it. Hold firmly but in a way that if the wheel grabs the rail you do not get cut.

I did dozens of pieces of rail this way. It takes maybe 30 seconds for each piece once you get a cadence going. The trains ran perfectly with no other work. I was happy that this method does not disturb the paper insulators.


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