# Stall Motors (Tortoise) versus Twin Coil Motors (Peco)



## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

Can twin coil turnout motors be installed several inches below the turnout, like a Tortoise? 

I plan on using 2 – 4” of extruded foam on top of 1/2 - 3/8” plywood for the main portion of my layout. From what I’ve read on the Peco site I believe their stall motors must be attached directly to the bottom of the turnout. That would mean creating a rather large hole thru the plywood and foam to access the bottom of the turnout. The thicker the foam the bigger the hole to get my fingers up in there. They have an extended pin version but the picture doesn’t look like the pin is very long. I’m considering the Tortoise motors because they could be mounted to the bottom of the ply. The more realistic slow motion of the Tortoise motors are not a factor for me; I could care less how fast or slow the turnout moves. I prefer easy access for installation and maintenance.

Keep in mind that I’m still a Hobo so I might have this all wrong.


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## monsterram1500 (Oct 13, 2015)

I just changed over from twin coil to tortoise. Twin coil is unreliable even with a capacitor discharge unit. Stick with tortoise. Here is a cheap site to buy in bulk. 

http://mountain-subdivision-hobbies.mybigcommerce.com/search.php?search_query=tortoise

I bought the 12 pack. 

I install the tortoise directly to my 1/2in plywood.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

for the tortise: You can simply substitute a longer -thicker- piece of wire on the tortise. you'll just have to drill out the little hole a bit to a larger diameter.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I have 20 or so Peco Insulfrog turnouts
on my layout, each powered by an 
attached PL10 twin coil machine. They
are powered by a Capacitor Discharge
unit to protect from burnout. I have never
had the first problem with any of the turnouts
or twin coil machines.

The Peco PL10 is a twin coil motor. As it
comes, it is intended to attach directly to
the underside of Peco turnouts. As noted,
that then requires an approximate 1 inch
square hole in the table. If you are using
the 2" foam that should be easy to create.
You would need only a small hole through
the wood for the 3 wires to the PL10. 

However, Peco does offer an under the table
adapter for the PL10 that is screwed to the wood.

The PL10 E has an extended throw rod, but you
may need to use a sleeve of some sort with
additional rod if your combined bottom to top
of benchwork is too thick for the PL10 E alone.

If you go with Tortoise, remove the locking
spring.

Don


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks for the info guys. I'm still quite a ways away from making turnout motor decisions but I'm trying to suck up as much info as I can in the meantime. Thinking about it, I might not use foam on my yards; maybe just cork sheets. I also need to study this diode matrix technique discussed in monsterram1500's Tortoise Switches thread and how it could fit into my plans. 

Thanks again !!!!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Suggestions*



grpaine said:


> Thanks for the info guys. I'm still quite a ways away from making turnout motor decisions but I'm trying to suck up as much info as I can in the meantime. Thinking about it, I might not use foam on my yards; maybe just cork sheets. I also need to study this diode matrix technique discussed in monsterram1500's Tortoise Switches thread and how it could fit into my plans.
> 
> Thanks again !!!!


grpaine;

You can use a music wire & brass tube linkage to operate your turnouts through the Foam, plywood, and cork. Both items are available in 1' and 3' lengths. Music wire is a steel wire that comes in 3' sections and a wide choice of diameters from 1/4" down to 10/1000". It is quite cheap. It sells for less than $1 per yard long piece. Brass tubing is more expensive than music wire, but still reasonable, when bought on Amazon.com.
The basic idea is to run a piece of wire through a piece of tube. The tube is installed vertically through whatever foam/wood/cork you use. The tube comes up through a hole drilled between ties. (Or through a tie, if the tie is much wider than the tube.) The top of the tube is even with the top of the tie. The wire goes farther up and then is bent over at the top of the tube, with a second bend down into a hole drilled through the center of the turnout's throwbar. Shaped somewhat like this ] 
The bottom end of the tube should project below the plywood an inch or so. The length of projection is whatever is convenient to attach to your switch machine. Twin coil or stall motor, or a manual linkage like an automobile choke cable. The wire extends out of the tube, and is bent over the tube's end at a 90 degree angle. Moving this bent end rotates the wire within the stationary tube and moves the throwbar and points of your turnout. Simple, cheap, reliable. 
You would mount the tortoise horizontally on the plywood, instead of the normal vertical mount. The moving wire of the tortoise would have its tip bent into a loop. this loop would be connected with a loop at the end of the music wire linkage coming down from the turnout. When the tortoise wire moves, it moves the music wire with it. This rotates the music wire and throws the points.

A diode matrix is used with twin coil machines. It lets you operate several turnouts simultaneously with one button push. This is called "route control." This system is handy when you want to pull into a yard track. Pushing the button for track 3 will line up all the turnouts needed to get onto that track. Twin coil machines should be operated with a capacitive discharge system. DonR is our resident expert on this. You can get more info from him, should you decide to use twin coil machines. I use Hankscraft stall motors (similar to the motor inside a tortoise machine) They can be operated in route control also. There are several ways of doing this but many are more complicated than a diode matrix system. I copied an elegantly simple system from a Model Railroader Magazine article. Should you decide on stall motors, I can give you more info on this.



regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks Traction Fan. I'll bookmark this for future reference when I get to that point of development.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I like DonR's suggestion of using the PL10's. They would be easy to mount as all the critical geometry alignment is done on the turnout with it unmounted, much easier than a Tortoise!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Just to further muddy the waters (actually, to shed light on a third alternative that is often overlooked), have you considered miniature servo motors as are used in the RC industry?

I am using mini servo products and related hardware from Tam Valley Depot (www.tamvalleydepot.com) and have found them easy to install, exceptionally reliable, amd easy to adapt to many applications.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> I like DonR's suggestion of using the PL10's. They would be easy to mount as all the critical geometry alignment is done on the turnout with it unmounted, much easier than a Tortoise!


That approach would make it easy to install initially but I'm concerned about the work involved in replacing a failed component. I'd have to remove the turnout.


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Just to further muddy the waters (actually, to shed light on a third alternative that is often overlooked), have you considered miniature servo motors as are used in the RC industry?
> 
> I am using mini servo products and related hardware from Tam Valley Depot (www.tamvalleydepot.com) and have found them easy to install, exceptionally reliable, amd easy to adapt to many applications.


I'll keep that in mind when the time comes. Servos sure work well in my RC plane.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

grpaine said:


> That approach would make it easy to install initially but I'm concerned about the work involved in replacing a failed component. I'd have to remove the turnout.


Pecos are pretty darn reliable, but it is easier to replace an under-table machine than one embedded in the layout. You still have to thread that tiny wire up through the hole in the throwbar, though, so it's no picnic either way.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Remote mounting of switch machines*



grpaine said:


> That approach would make it easy to install initially but I'm concerned about the work involved in replacing a failed component. I'd have to remove the turnout.


grpaine;

No matter which type of switch machine you choose, Tortoise, twin coil, servo, or manual, you can mount it away from the turnout, so you won't have to remove the turnout to repair, or replace the machine. In my prior response I mentioned the rod-inside-a-tube mechanism. This can be used two ways. The first, rotating the rod in the tube, I've already explained. The second is push-pull. This is similar to how brakes and gear shifts on a bicycle operate. Since you are using a foam top for your layout, this should be simple to do. Like the vertical, rotation system, this uses a greased music wire inside a brass tube. But instead of rotating in a vertical tube, the music wire is pushed or pulled inside a horizontal tube. The tube can be laid across the foam surface, directly outward from the turnout's throwbar. The music wire is connected to the throwbar. Install this tube/wire link on top of, or just under, the foam's top surface. It can go out to a machine concealed inside a structure, or scenery; or out to the edge of the layout. This latter system is what I use on my layout. My reason for doing so may not apply to you, (I'm old, and disabled and don't want to have to go under the layout.) but that's no reason you can't do the same thing. Once you reach the layout's edge you can use the machine of your choice, or a caboose industries ground throw, or a simple knob or lever. In any case, all that's necessary is to push the wire to set the turnout one way, and pull the wire the other way to change the route setting. 

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## grpaine (Jun 18, 2016)

Lots of great advice, thanks guys. I'll experiment with these options when I get to that point in my construction.


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