# Looking for WW2 German Standard Halocaust Car Drawings



## johnpenn74 (Jul 4, 2011)

Looking for WW2 German Standard Halocaust Car Drawings

I am looking for prototype drawings and information of the standard German Railway cars used during WW2. Specifically I am looking for 3 cars.
1) Standard Box cars used for ferrying Halocaust victims
2) Standard gondola (not sure if there was one but assume there was)
3) Information on the passenger car that WW1 surrender was signed in

John P


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

johnpenn74 said:


> Looking for WW2 German Standard Halocaust Car Drawings
> 
> I am looking for prototype drawings and information of the standard German Railway cars used during WW2. Specifically I am looking for 3 cars.
> 1) Standard Box cars used for ferrying Halocaust victims
> ...


Picture search,

http://search.comcast.net/?cat=imag...1&q=holocaust+railroad+cars&top_SearchSubmit=

I could not find any "drawings".
Though I found a lot of pictures of them, you need drawings?
Search for them with Google if you need pictures, drawings? I don't know.
I got tired of viewing all the death so I stopped looking.

Cattle car used,


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The only picture of the Passenger car I can dig up. 


Adolf Hitler entering railroad car (used for Germany's surrender in WWI) for the French/German armistice negotiations, June 21, 1940. Photo by Hugo Jaeger for LIFE. 









There is not much info on the car itself.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

My Great-aunt was in Auschwitz for 7 months for hiding Jews and 2 of my Grandfather's cousins were on Hitler's housekeeping staff. 

I keep this car in my aunt's memory...










There are just some things in family you have to acknowledge, good or bad...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

shaygetz said:


> My Great-aunt was in Auschwitz for 7 months for hiding Jews and 2 of my Grandfather's cousins were on Hitler's housekeeping staff.
> 
> I keep this car in my aunt's memory...
> 
> ...


What is that HO?
Did you make that? 
It looks just like the picture I posted all it needs is some weathering to make it look old and battered.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

If you are in the Washington DC area, the National Holocaust Museum has one on display. I think it was just a standard German Boxcar of the period.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

A Quick Search:-


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I visited Dachau when I was in Munich on business, hard to believe people were doing that to each other!

I checked the stuff I have from that visit, no train pictures.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

big ed said:


> What is that HO?
> Did you make that?
> It looks just like the picture I posted all it needs is some weathering to make it look old and battered.


Yes, it is a Fleischmann HO model. My little girl wanted so badly to get daddy a train car for Father's Day. We lived out in the boonies at the time but I told my wife that I saw this and one other European car at the local flea market. She was tickled to be able to get two cars for daddy... :thumbsup: It's been a treasured piece since, especially because of its similarity to the typical transport car from that time.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

santafe158 said:


> If you are in the Washington DC area, the National Holocaust Museum has one on display. I think it was just a standard German Boxcar of the period.


The link said Cattle car.



Giants said:


> A Quick Search:-



Beat you Dave, look up at the above post.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think they thought of these poor folks as less than cattle, so it would seem that would be the mode of transportation they'd pick.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

Nope - Don't see it Sorry.
Gees - did I say that, crikie I should Look More, and I did.
These Car Shots should show some detail to make some measurements from.
Proportion is there to act by.
If you Know the Rail Wheel size, then you can calculate the rest from that.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Giants said:


> Nope - Don't see it Sorry.
> Gees - did I say that, crikie I should Look More, and I did.
> These Car Shots should show some detail to make some measurements from.
> Proportion is there to act by.
> If you Know the Rail Wheel size, then you can calculate the rest from that.



Ha Ha Ha,
I am quoting this so you can't take your sorry away!:laugh:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The logical approach is to search cattle cars/ box cars of the 20's or 30's. These were probably adapted for the camps use.


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

And what did you Find -


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

johnpenn74 said:


> Looking for WW2 German Standard Halocaust Car Drawings
> 
> I am looking for prototype drawings and information of the standard German Railway cars used during WW2. Specifically I am looking for 3 cars.
> 1) Standard Box cars used for ferrying Halocaust victims
> ...


I do hope you're not going to model any ovens... 

Greg


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

choo choo said:


> I do hope you're not going to model any ovens...
> 
> Greg


I well remember when "Schindler's List" came to the theaters and a poll was taken around that time showing that over 25% of Americans did not believe it even happened.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> I well remember when "Schindler's List" came to the theaters and a poll was taken around that time showing that over 25% of Americans did not believe it even happened.


Boggles the mind, no? Maybe some of those folks should visit one of the concentration camps, even the Germans will admit that it happened. Hard to argue with all the evidence. I'm sure those same folks probably think we didn't really land on the moon.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> I well remember when "Schindler's List" came to the theaters and a poll was taken around that time showing that over 25% of Americans did not believe it even happened.


Those 25% are not Americans.

I'm suprized the percentage isn't even higher because the denial of the existance of evil is epidemic in this country.

Greg


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've never actually met any American that I know believes the Holocaust didn't happen. It's certainly not 25% unless there's whole states that disbelieve!


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've never actually met any American that I know believes the Holocaust didn't happen.


That's because they're *not* Americans. 



> It's certainly not 25% unless there's whole states that disbelieve!


The 25% are in California.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, that makes sense, and they're not Americans!


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## Giants (Jun 17, 2011)

My Friend Likes Hitler's Super Train and wants to Model it.
Remember, this is still real scale with 10 foot wide Track.
So this would mean that in H0scale the Train would be on G-scale track width or something with 1/87 rails?


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## trainguru (Jun 28, 2011)

*Why?*

In school, a few years back in language arts, we read "Night" by Elie Wiesel, and I had to help explain how small were the cattle cars they used. It was the darkest point in the rail related bits of my life. The conditions were no better than being an actual lot of cattle for the slaughter house. Many people died, millions, it was genocide. I just would like to know, why are you enquiring about these trains? What is your purpose? To educate and inform? To understand? What are the reasons for wanting to know about a tragic detail, of the most infamous of evils in the modern age?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

You realise guru that the OP has not been on since his first post that he made in this thread? I would imagine he was looking for it to model it maybe to inform, maybe to never remember what happened, or just trying to learn more about history. None of which are bad. It is only bad if he decides he wants to go and become a hitler which I doubt will happen.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It is so nice when they ask a question then never come back to acknowledge the reply's.:thumbsdown:

History is history, as bad as that was, it will never get forgotten.
It is in the history books.

Maybe he was modeling a war layout from that era.
I guess we will never know his intentions as he never came back.:thumbsdown:


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## trainguru (Jun 28, 2011)

*So I Asked...*

I understand the facts, however, when the subject is brought to light, I am disturbed at best. I wonder, if some distant relative could have had to bare the evils of WW2, because my family roots go to many countries involved in WW2. So I asked, but was it that bad to ask? Really? To try to know the reason? It's most likely for the best, he hasn't come back.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I feel like that is the wrond outlook on things guru. I understand that WW2 was bad but there is nothing wrong with modelling it. It makes a good challenge to model as well do to the lack of models so a lot of scratch building is involved. Plus during WW2 Germany made a lot of fascinating advancements in railroad equipment like massive rail guns or massive armored engines. They also advanced the airplane industry a lot as well. The Germans have always been an ingenius nation that has come up with some of the most details trian things out there. I feel like ti is perfectly fine if he comes back here even now. What harm is he going to cause you just because he is on here. There is another member on here from Australia that models WW2 and it is some of the best work I have seen. The amount of diversity in models was also something astounding as well. It isnot bad to ask the question but starting to state things about members who have posted one thing and saying he should not come back is not. You did not do that in your first post on this thread but your reply did.

Big Ed,

Did our Australian friend ever recover from that dust storm they had and start remodeling? I can't recall any recent posts by him or his name and was wondering if you recalled.


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## trainguru (Jun 28, 2011)

*Let's put this to bed!*

As long as intentions are good, and not for evil. I don't mean to rag on other kinds of modeler's. And further more, I think we all should put this thread to bed, until the starter returns. I didn't mean him not comming back for the best, in a mean way. Maybe circumstances, dictated the thread a superfical thing. He may or may not come back. However in the meantime, let's close this for now, eh?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

trainguru said:


> In school, a few years back in language arts, we read "Night" by Elie Wiesel, and I had to help explain how small were the cattle cars they used. It was the darkest point in the rail related bits of my life. The conditions were no better than being an actual lot of cattle for the slaughter house. Many people died, millions, it was genocide. I just would like to know, why are you enquiring about these trains? What is your purpose? To educate and inform? To understand? What are the reasons for wanting to know about a tragic detail, of the most infamous of evils in the modern age?





trainguru said:


> As long as intentions are good, and not for evil. I don't mean to rag on other kinds of modeler's. And further more, I think we all should put this thread to bed, until the starter returns. I didn't mean him not comming back for the best, in a mean way. Maybe circumstances, dictated the thread a superfical thing. He may or may not come back. However in the meantime, let's close this for now, eh?



It was put to bed until someone dug it back up from the past.
That someone was you.??

Big Ed,

Did our Australian friend ever recover from that dust storm they had and start remodeling? I can't recall any recent posts by him or his name and was wondering if you recalled. 

I can't recall his ID right now, I don't think he as been back yet.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

That's bakkers2005 your thinking of. Haven't heard from him for a while. He survived the typhoon ok, but his house -- and layout -- took a hard hit.

TJ


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

thats a shame. I really apreciated his work he had done for his layout. Hope all is well for him.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Sorry to hear that...I've had to walk away from my collection twice in 10 months because of hurricanes. Both times they were still here when I came back but it still puts things into perspective...


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## gustovski (Jul 7, 2011)

big ed said:


> Big Ed,
> 
> Did our Australian friend ever recover from that dust storm they had and start remodeling? I can't recall any recent posts by him or his name and was wondering if you recalled.
> 
> I can't recall his ID right now, I don't think he as been back yet.


i hope you dont mean me 
im not in typhoon country!
:laugh:hwell::thumbsdown::thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> That's bakkers2005 your thinking of. Haven't heard from him for a while. He survived the typhoon ok, but his house -- and layout -- took a hard hit.
> 
> TJ





gustovski said:


> i hope you dont mean me
> im not in typhoon country!
> :laugh:hwell::thumbsdown::thumbsup:




No it was this guy, bakkers2005 from Townsville, Australia.

Check out his work,


http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5185


Search his name for more of his layout. His house and layout got damaged some in the big storm last year sometime.


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## steam chaser (Feb 21, 2011)

shaygetz said:


> Yes, it is a Fleischmann HO model. My little girl wanted so badly to get daddy a train car for Father's Day. We lived out in the boonies at the time but I told my wife that I saw this and one other European car at the local flea market. She was tickled to be able to get two cars for daddy... :thumbsup: It's been a treasured piece since, especially because of its similarity to the typical transport car from that time.



Very nice, Now it has even more meaning,great story.


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## gustovski (Jul 7, 2011)

steam chaser said:


> Very nice, Now it has even more meaning,great story.


agreed i like these types of cars dont know why but the euro freight cars have that nice look to them that i like 
on my layout i plan on having a whole freight yard full of them although some might be british or early australian





just realized this post #100 i am now a brake man
will have to updat my sig


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## nz500single (Nov 25, 2008)

Hi,
Probably a bit after the original post but maybe someone can use a good image of a rail car from the period.
I snapped this while cycling in northern France. It is a tribute to Czech and Slovak troops.
All the best!
P.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow is that an HO scale bicycle?:laugh:

Nice shot.


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## nz500single (Nov 25, 2008)

N scale.... check out the detail on it eh


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## gustovski (Jul 7, 2011)

both of you are wrong!
its clearly z scale


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

big ed said:


> No it was this guy, bakkers2005 from Townsville, Australia.
> 
> Check out his work,
> 
> ...



He is rebuilding at this very moment!! Can't wait to see some pics!!

Pat


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Prospect193 said:


> He is rebuilding at this very moment!! Can't wait to see some pics!!
> 
> Pat


Cool, he does some great work.:thumbsup:

I hoped he salvaged some of his old layout.
Must have been something left?


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Train movements to work and death camps were supplied under contract by the DR to various German authorities responsible for transporting people to the camps.

The typical wagon used was usually the standard ventilated wagon, or boxcar, in US terms. The equipment used though, varied widely. Normally, freight wagons were used, but occasionally passenger cars were used as camp transports. It usually depended on the origin of the train. 

There is an excellent book called "The Greatest Asset Of The Third Reich" which discusses the DR role in WW2. 

Technically, the DR was never absorbed by the Reich, but remained a independent company which profited highly off the German government. The DR had strong unions which even Hitler did not challenge. The government did have a domestic railway corps which aided in coordination of train movements and security.

There were also German Army railway battalions, responsible for armored trains and trackage in occupied countries. The Germans converted thousands of miles of trackage in the Soviet Union from 5 foot gauge to standard gauge during the war.

BTW, my great uncle was a surgeon with the 4th Service (a US Army General Hospital) and elements were attached to the 20th Armored Division, which took part in the liberation of Dachau Concentration camp...it was a very unpleasant experience which stuck with him for the rest of his life.

Tom


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to post that Tom.
It is an old thread but who knows who is reading.
Thanks


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Hello Ed. It was an interesting original post about a historic event that really doesn't get much press as far as the involvement of the railroad during the war. 

The role of the DR is interestingly down played as they were a money making venture which profited from the war, even though they worked for the losing side. 

It was a sad time in railroad history, but interesting none the less.

Tom


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## Atlanta (Apr 29, 2019)

*K.P.E.V. Standard closed Boxcar G-Wagon*

Well you are looking for Dimensions or construction Plans of the Standard Boxcar of the Former Prussian State Railway.









I hope that is what are you looking for?

All dimensions in the Drawings in mm.

This Car had a weight of 9,7 t and a max. carload of 15 t.

In Europe One metric Ton has got 1000 Kgs.

Greetings, ya Ingo


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