# Smoke in Tender 312 Engine



## T-Man

This is a family heirloom. It was given to the older brother in 1950. Since then it has seen some use. 

The bellows will be redone. Any suggestions on a glue?


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## mopac

I do not have any S.I.T. locomotives. Your pictures are the first time I have seen inside
of a tender for one. So I know nothing about them. I would suggest going to Portlines
site and look for repair instructions for the bellows. They have great instructions.

It actually looks pretty good in there.


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## T-Man

Great idea! I have only seen one before but this one needs cleaning and work. The important part is getting the creases correct. A good glue should keep it sealed.

Just a note" after they were made an upgrade kit was available to a metal cylinder. That would be interesting to see.

I thought this would make a great pictorial. I am redoing the truck insulators too with all the parts.


I do not know him very well but Doug does set up at the local train shows and he only lives down the stretch of highway.

.from the insulator.

The link for the 
instructions


He has the conversion kit too. Part 1680.


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## dooper

Great pictures of inside the smoke unit. I have not had to take any of mine apart that much.


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## T-Man

*Round 2*

The engine needed some attention.










All of the white wheel inserts were loose.










The shells clean up OK. I needed to shine up all the handrails.









The armature spacers were shot.


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## T-Man

*The smoke case and tender frame*

I removed the filter element and clean it up.





























The frame was a mess mostly with dried smoke fluid xo I went with a total clean up.


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## mopac

Looking good. That smoke fluid will gum things up. That locomotive will be a treasure when you get it done. LOL, I think they are all treasures. Nothing cooler than a good running flyer.

Armature face looks like new. Good job.


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## T-Man

*Tender strip.*

I am not crazy about doing the smoke unit but since it sits in the tender I am just taking my time. you are right it will be nice when done. 

Stripping the frame the Easy Off way.


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## T-Man

*Time for paint and redo the reverse unit*


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## T-Man

*Views if the Engine.*


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## mopac

You are moving along. I am slow. Good but slow.


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## T-Man

*Catch up*

Mostly done this week and I am just catching up on posts. The parts came today for the tender.

Now more on the tender frame.


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## flyernut

I have a 322 Hudson with SIT. Never took it apart as it works fine.I just never liked the lever sticking up from the boiler, too "Lionel-like" for me.. The tender frame looks great, I sand-blast the heavier tender frames as the thinner ones do warp.. I've also used brake fluid to strip tender frames and it works great, and it's quick..Nice job.. At last count I think I have 6 312's.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## T-Man

The lever, that reminds me. The motor base has a piece of plastic to stop the lever from contacting the frame. This time it prevented the smoke unit from shutting off. The lever could get off the contact. I had to thin it out . Problem solved.:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I look forward to seeing this one finished, it looks like you're going that extra mile.


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## T-Man

John hopefully it all work out. I haven't track tested the engine yet. Maybe I will use another tender. Any way this section is done. 

The frame is finished. The original rear truck had a broken latch.































This is the motor base showing the plastic insulator for the lever. 




















Now it can move and shut off.


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## tjcruiser

Very nice work on the cleaning and rehab work, T.

Re: the bellows, you asked about glue type. Something flexible, for sure. First thing that came to mind was rubber cement. You've likely thought about that?

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

*The bellows*

TJ, I went with super glue gel. Here is the material strip, I folded creases to compress out on the top and in on the sides..










I started on the side first both edges.












I decided to glue two sides at a time. Then worked my way around.






















The pencil helped with pressing the fabric in place.











The seam was last.


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## tjcruiser

You must be good at Origami, too, T-Man! 

What's the fabric material? Airtight? Looks like denim, but it must have some coating? Or is an outer coating yet to come?


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## T-Man

The folds did help. I have no idea of the material. Could be musical accordion material. It is very light stuff.

Today the smoke wick and wire went in.
Now to figure out the wiring.


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## T-Man

Electrical diagram for this is scarce. I could not locate one so I based it on pictures I had. The pivot point was the switch.

The lever side had two wires one from the motor and one from the smoke unit. Two black wires.

The opposite side of the switch was connected to the front truck. Red wire

The other motor wire was connected to the other side of the smoke unit and the back truck was also connected to the same point. Black and green wire ( truck)


The only other wires were connected from the trucks and run forward to the engine. Both black and new.


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## T-Man

*SMoke unit*

My picture didn't take for the smoke unit. So a description will have to do.
It consists of the nichrome wire wrapped around a wick. The wick was fed into the unit and through the holes. The wire was anchored to a terminal and I started to wind the wire until I got the desired resistance reading. Then I soldered the end to the second terminal. 

Well I doesn't always go as planned. The length was the problem. Too long, so I went back to the other side and force the loops to the center then I took up the slack on the wire and wick. Then I just prodded the loops to equal distances and no crisscrosses or possible shorts. When I was satisfied then I placed it inside the smoke box.

That was the technique and it worked


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## T-Man

*Engine test*

With the tender in pieces I turned to a substitute for track testing the engine. My track was so bad it took some doing but the engine worked fine.


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## mopac

looking good


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## tjcruiser

OMG, that's a LOT of smoke! Nice job on the rebuilt, T-man!

OK, dumb questions (with apologies) ... trying to understand something I've never seen before ...

* How does the smoke get from the tender to the loco? Through a small tube?\
* It looks like the smoke gizmo is mounted on a 2nd-tier plate that "floats" above the tender frame. Why? For ease of service, or is there some other reason (as opposed to mounting all of the gizmo stuff to the tender frame itself).
* And with that, you mentioned a "pivot", and it looks like the 2nd-tier plate is suspended by that pivot. Reason?

Thanks!

TJ


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## T-Man

I had trouble posting the video. I still have problems viewing it from the forum. At least I know it is viewable.

To answer your question there is a rubber hose and brass tubing to the smoke stack. Not much room for it, It is visible near the revers lever on top.

The platform is necessary to keep the clearance over the trucks since they supply the pickup power. The frame is also the bottom of the smoke box.

The lever sits on an isolated pivot point with attached wires from the motor and smoke unit. Then contact is made on the other side to another isolated rivet that is connected to the rear power truck. Also, the lever cannot touch the frame or instant short.

I was surprised with the smoke :smokin:


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## gunrunnerjohn

Looks great! :thumbsup:

A lot of work to get smoke, but I guess in the timeframe they were doing these, it was "state of the art". It's not _fan driven smoke_, it's a whole lot more complicated!


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> To answer your question there is a rubber hose and brass tubing to the smoke stack. Not much room for it, It is visible near the revers lever on top.
> 
> The platform is necessary to keep the clearance over the trucks since they supply the pickup power. The frame is also the bottom of the smoke box.
> 
> The lever sits on an isolated pivot point with attached wires from the motor and smoke unit. Then contact is made on the other side to another isolated rivet that is connected to the rear power truck. Also, the lever cannot touch the frame or instant short.
> 
> I was surprised with the smoke :smokin:


Many thanks, T-Man. Good explanations throughout. Quite the complex little gizmo. And, as I noted, I am AMAZED at the amount of smoke coming out of that thing.

Another question, though ...

On many Lionel smoke units, the "puff-puff" of the smoke unit is tied mechanically to the cadence of the loco wheels, drive rods, steam chest piston, etc.

But here on this unit, I assume that's not the case? The speed of the "chuff chuff" of the smoke unit (in the tender, with its stand-along motor) is random, and not tied directly to the cadence of the loco???

Really fun restoration project, especially with the ties to your brother, extended family. Nice work, as always!

TJ


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## T-Man

The motor runs the engine speed. That is about it. The engine tested on the track and the reverse is dependable. Here is the tube side.












The test tender worked well and I modified it to include a four lead engine.


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## flyernut

tjcruiser said:


> Many thanks, T-Man. Good explanations throughout. Quite the complex little gizmo. And, as I noted, I am AMAZED at the amount of smoke coming out of that thing.
> 
> Another question, though ...
> 
> On many Lionel smoke units, the "puff-puff" of the smoke unit is tied mechanically to the cadence of the loco wheels, drive rods, steam chest piston, etc.
> 
> But here on this unit, I assume that's not the case? The speed of the "chuff chuff" of the smoke unit (in the tender, with its stand-along motor) is random, and not tied directly to the cadence of the loco???
> 
> Really fun restoration project, especially with the ties to your brother, extended family. Nice work, as always!
> 
> TJ


You're correct. Track voltage dictates the smoke unit motor speed.. You can have a SIT engine sitting on a siding, puffing away.


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## tjcruiser

flyernut said:


> You can have a SIT engine sitting on a siding, puffing away.


'Nut -- That's pretty cool, now that I think of it that way!!! Thanks!

T-Man -- Great work. I especially like the "test tender" setup. Only YOU would create a concoction like that during the rehab work: one very logical step at a time! Brilliant!

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Does the tender shell fit on with the wooden block?


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## T-Man

*motor sticks*

The motor sticks. I worked the baffle arm and it is free of burs. That is when I looked at the motor. The shaft at the gear pointed down and the motor had two extra washers on it, The field also did not align up with the armature. Basically the frame is warped the upper motor mount points up.
















The shell does fit over the tender, John

































I added one washer behind the field. This washer is smaller and ground thin on the inside near the armature. It works better but I don't know if I can get it to be dependable


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## tjcruiser

Mod note:

T-Man, I moved the most recent post above from the Junk Box Four thread (where you had inadvertently posted it) over to this Smoke Tender thread.

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

oops


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## tjcruiser

No milk and cookies for you tonight, T-Man!



TJ


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## flyernut

The tin tender you show doesn't belong to a 312, it should be a cast tender shell.The shell may fit over the chassis, but it wouldn't be right. Maybe what you think is a warped chassis, is actually the wrong chassis for a SIT unit??. Could be possibly the reason why things aren't lining up right.


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## flyernut

Here's a shot of a auxiliary














tender I made.


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## T-Man

Wow it looks brand new! 

Flyernut, the tender is the test tender I used for the engine. The tender frame is unique with a slot for the lever and m]three mounts for the smoke unit. The shell is cast and has Pennsylvania on the side. I didn't mean to confuse you.

That smoke frame is sturdy because just in front of the motor mount is a square support of which a wire passes through it. The problem is the top mount of the motor. It points up at an angle. The extra washers proves the problem has existed for some time.

The shells


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## tjcruiser

Interesting ... I've never noticed this before: Looks like AF takes their armature wirings directly into the copper segment facets of the armature, rather than to little tangs off the side (like Lionel does). Is this the case for all/most AF armatures? (Just curious.)

Is that what I'm seeing here ... two brass "dots" on each segment?

Thanks, T. Oh ... is the washer/warp problem under control?


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## flyernut

tjcruiser said:


> Interesting ... I've never noticed this before: Looks like AF takes their armature wirings directly into the copper segment facets of the armature, rather than to little tangs off the side (like Lionel does). Is this the case for all/most AF armatures? (Just curious.)
> 
> Is that what I'm seeing here ... two brass "dots" on each segment?
> 
> Thanks, T. Oh ... is the washer/warp problem under control?


That armature is a very early one, possibly late 40's. Usually the "dots" are not there in the later ones. AmFlyer and/or Cramden will definitely know more.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> Wow it looks brand new!
> 
> Flyernut, the tender is the test tender I used for the engine. The tender frame is unique with a slot for the lever and m]three mounts for the smoke unit. The shell is cast and has Pennsylvania on the side. I didn't mean to confuse you.
> 
> That smoke frame is sturdy because just in front of the motor mount is a square support of which a wire passes through it. The problem is the top mount of the motor. It points up at an angle. The extra washers proves the problem has existed for some time.
> 
> The shells
> 
> View attachment 472270


AHA!!..THAT clears that up for me,lol!!.The tender shell with the hole in it is indeed the right one... On that aux tender, I sand-blasted the shell and the chassis, primed, and then painted a satin black. I then added dry-rub transfers, red jewels on the back, and a link coupler truck and link coupler to the front..I'll take the shell off my 322 Hudson SIT and check it out for you. It will be late this afternoon as both my wife and I have bronchitis, and have a drs appointment at 2:30, but I promise i'll get back.


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## flyernut

Here's my 322 Hudson SIT..On one of your pictures of the armature inside the field, the armature plates should line up with the field plate. Your's is biased to one side. Shouldn't matter. You'll notice on my chassis there are 2 cross "beams"... I just checked my armature/field, and it looks the same as yours.. Mine runs perfect so no worries,lol!!


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## flyernut

Another pic.


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## AmFlyer

Here is the tech data on the early and late production motors for the SIT mechanism. Since yours is a 1946 engine I would assume you have the early production version. I have never seen a postwar Gilbert commutator that looked like yours. Of course that really does not mean much.


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## T-Man

Thank you Tom for the information and the pictures help.
Today I have serious internet misconnections. maybe it is the wind. Saying that I will save often and edit


I did notice the field was off in your picture. Also is that normal for the draw bar? Mine is also a zigzag.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> Thank you Tom for the information and the pictures help.
> Today I have serious internet misconnections. maybe it is the wind. Saying that I will save often and edit
> 
> 
> I did notice the field was off in your picture. Also is that normal for the draw bar? Mine is also a zigzag.


Bear in mind you're looking at a Hudson tender...


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## dooper

It is a 1946 version. The 1948 version did not have the tubes. Portlines has a picture of each in their repair clinics.


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## tjcruiser

'Nut -- thanks for the info on the armature face re: the wire-lead "dots". Just struck me as "unique".

Interesting info/pics on the S.I.T. here, guys. Fun to watch this all play out!

Cheers,

TJ


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## AmFlyer

The engine and tender T-Man has is 1946 production. The SIT was 1946 and 1947 only. Prewar engines did not have smoke and beginning in 1948 the SIB design was adopted. The smoke in neutral capability was lost but the smoke and choo choo were now synchronized to the siderod action. The SIB design also greatly reduced costs because the second motor was eliminated.
Thinking more about the commutator, there is no way Gilbert would have mass produced that design based on cost reasons. It has me wondering if this was one of the 20 or so made for the trade fair or if there was a very small early production run of these commutators.


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## tjcruiser

AmFlyer said:


> Thinking more about the commutator, there is no way Gilbert would have mass produced that design based on cost reasons. It has me wondering if this was one of the 20 or so made for the trade fair or if there was a very small early production run of these commutators.


I love a mystery!


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## T-Man

*312 smoking*

Just a reminder that I do not own the engine and will be returned soon so is there anything you want to know before it goes back?


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## flyernut

I've found that many of my 4-piece boiler 302's have that funky armature.


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## tjcruiser

As noted, that's a LOT of smoke, T-Man. Nice! Please, please show a vid of the loco/tender running 'round a track before it runs home back to your brother.

'Nut -- interesting ... the 'funky armature' is "out there"!

TJ


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## AmFlyer

Thanks flyernut. I have not noticed that on any of mine, maybe I need to look again!


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## cramden

As already posted it is definitely a 46 S.I.T. unit. My 46 Hudson is exactly like T-Man's and flyernut's.The armature doesn't line up with the field(sticks out of the back slightly.) Dooper pointed out Portlines repair clinic and there is a pic. of a 47 S.I.T. which is different from the 46. The rear of the commutator has a cloth backing and a flat brush plate with 2 brass tubes as spacers. The 47 commutator has a Bakelite back and the brush holder was modified to eliminate the 2 tubes. The flat Bakelite brush holder was known for breaking. I noticed my die-cast smoke unit base has a slight upward bow at the rear and it appears so does flyernuts from his pics. The worm gear does not line up with the gear straight, instead it has a slight down angle. I am with AmFlyer on the fact I've not paid attention to the armature faces as to the rivets. Most engines with separate trailing trucks use the zigzag draw bar as it mounts to the bar at the rear of the cab. I must commend you T-Man for a real labor of love bringing the 312 back from the scrap heap. It's always good when another one is saved from the recycle bin. :appl::appl:


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## mopac

T-Man - Great job on the rebuild. Your bellow is really working. Great smoke.


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## T-Man

Thanks guys this is quite interesting. The owner unfortunately is not my brother but a local gent getting back into the hobby to entertain the grandkids. I have talked with him briefly and he may have more interesting stuff.

My interest in the drawbar is functionality. It is not square and I had to reset the tender rivet from the tension. 


Getting back to the armature I believe I saw the brass rivets on a 302. Now we know what to look for.


I can do the video but have a few things to work out first.


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## PAPABEAR

Many thanks to T-man for the labor of love bringing back to life my brother's 46SIT!
My only sibling was born in 7/1945 while my Dad was in the Army Air Corps stationed
NV. When my Dad was discharged, he returned home to ME and returned to his job 
assistant store manager of Sears. My Dad gave my brother the train set #4607 for 1946 Christmas (consumer price list 10/11/1946 shows set not available). I was born 4/1950 and remember in my early years that it was set up yearly under the Christmas tree. My Mom had it boxed up through the last 60+ years. Thanks again, job well done!


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## tjcruiser

The 46 SIT has been in the BEST of hands, PapaBear. Hope you and the family enjoy it and T-Man's handiwork for many more years to come!

TJ


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## T-Man

*Update*

There are still Problems. Trying to get the motor start at low speed. My test track only has 95 watts so the tender was trying but stalling. I went back to basics and did more cleaning . I removed the washer which is a good thing. Starting has improved. With the field shifting back away from the brushes I avoided the connection to the armature wire. These are gooped together and may have caused the motor stall on the field. 


I had some sparking at one point and startled me. It was only the smoke wire I disconnected but shorted out.


Now, I am just running the motor without the bellows and get it worked in. It is not perfect but improvement is showing.


I did find an interference with the wires on the left side, which could jam the baffle with it's off side movement. 
They will have to be moved.


My other threads are mostly on hold now. I also got a transformer back that was abused by the postal service. The metal plate had two bends from being dropped twice. The insides didn't like that at all.


By the way! Happy Thanksgiving to all!:smilie_daumenpos:

I did see one of these engines at the Wilmington Show for $125


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## PAPABEAR

Thanks for the update. Take your time, no deadline. Thanks for your steadfast work!
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving too! 
At the Wilmington show, What shape was the AF312 for sale?


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> There are still Problems. Trying to get the motor start at low speed. My test track only has 95 watts so the tender was trying but stalling. I went back to basics and did more cleaning . I removed the washer which is a good thing. Starting has improved. With the field shifting back away from the brushes I avoided the connection to the armature wire. These are gooped together and may have caused the motor stall on the field.
> 
> 
> I had some sparking at one point and startled me. It was only the smoke wire I disconnected but shorted out.
> 
> 
> Now, I am just running the motor without the bellows and get it worked in. It is not perfect but improvement is showing.
> 
> 
> I did find an interference with the wires on the left side, which could jam the baffle with it's off side movement.
> They will have to be moved.
> 
> 
> My other threads are mostly on hold now. I also got a transformer back that was abused by the postal service. The metal plate had two bends from being dropped twice. The insides didn't like that at all.
> 
> 
> By the way! Happy Thanksgiving to all!:smilie_daumenpos:
> 
> I did see one of these engines at the Wilmington Show for $125


A bit much at $125. I purchased a 312AC on ebay just this past Thursday and paid $49 plus shipping. According to the pictures it was in fairly nice condition with nothing broken or missing.


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## T-Man

Thanks for the info.

My wifi has been a mess lately and my last post did not take.
I just said the engine was average with a well worn original box.


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> My wifi has been a mess lately and my last post did not take.
> I just said the engine was average with a well worn original box.


I just bought a nice running 322 Hudson, and a dead 312 at a train show yesterday.The 312 is complete though, and that's the key. I paid $40 apiece for them, but that's the exception, not the rule..


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## mopac

I paid 37.00 plus shipping for my 312. It is dead and needs a wheel but is complete.
Running 312s are bringing 70.00 to 90.00 on ebay. Some people are asking 125.00
but I do not believe they are selling. My 312 has good paint but has been in storage
since 1952 and grease is hardened and axles do not turn easily. It needs an alcohol
bath. I believe it will make a nice steamer some day. Jeff Kane has a wheel for me 
for 4.00. It has a square stud. Mine is an early model with slotted brushes. I will
probably convert it to shoulder brushes. I have a brush cap and a brand new armature
if needed.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man, you are the diligent and persistent tinkerer. Some hiccups, perhaps, but happy to hear that you're on the case ... aiming to get 'er running, once again. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving, too!

TJ


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## T-Man

*Making progress.*

A little more detail now. I worked the armature again. Paying attention to the shaft and the plates, they were cleaned with 400 grit sandpaper. The only point left was the bushing on the frame so I worked that too!

Progress is a dependable motor start at low voltage. This is without the arm. It still sticks with the arm. 


Being a little frustrated I sanded the gear and the arm. Then I tried the angle adjustment of the arm attached to the bellows. I got improvement. That ended the session and next time I am hoping for a track test run. I have noticed the more the motor runs the better it gets .


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## flyernut

T-Man said:


> A little more detail now. I worked the armature again. Paying attention to the shaft and the plates, they were cleaned with 400 grit sandpaper. The only point left was the bushing on the frame so I worked that too!
> 
> Progress is a dependable motor start at low voltage. This is without the arm. It still sticks with the arm.
> 
> 
> Being a little frustrated I sanded the gear and the arm. Then I tried the angle adjustment of the arm attached to the bellows. I got improvement. That ended the session and next time I am hoping for a track test run. I have noticed the more the motor runs the better it gets .


When ever I put new brushes in, I always let it run for awhile until the new brushes take a set..


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## T-Man

*Recap*

Smoke in the tender, rewired the smoke unit.
The motor in tender cleaned and tried every trick I could to get it to run on a lower voltage. Cleaning helped the best. Spacers in the motor were removed and the one I made was also removed.

Next the baffle was updated with new material but jammed. I checked everywhere for burs. One funny thing I did was moved the baffle around a little. It was stiff. Since I did that it has not jammed. 


The engine was pretested with a different test tender. So they should work together right! No I had problems yesterday. The smoke was flawless and works on the track attached to the tender but the engine was stubborn. 


So I investigated. I adjusted tender wheels for contact. I adjusted the drawbar. I found a rod too close to the eccentric nut. Last I found the smoke hose in the way of the rear truck. I was stalling on curves due to the hose touching the upright from the rear tuck.



That was enough frustration for one day. Refreshed I moved the hose out of the way but disconnected it and the engine ran fine.:appl: That was a relief. I need to rethink my adapter again.


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## tjcruiser

Wow. This little rehab project is really trying to kick your *ss, T-Man. Little does it know that you've been around the ring for more than a round or two. My money is on you. Keep up the fight. I'm thinking it'll be a unanimous decision, in the end!



TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

He's up, he's down, he's bloodied but not out. Here he comes again!!!


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## T-Man

Thanks for the kind words. TJ will get his video!


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## cramden

Hang in there T-Man, you'll get it done. Sometimes things fight you tooth and nail and other times it's smooth sailing. Seems you're in rough seas at the moment but I'm sure you'll be successful in the end.


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## T-Man

Here it is. The hose had to go under the jack. 

It is still uploading




















I suppose you could just copy and paste.


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## drbobderrig

wow... how much time you got in this guy.??? I hate messing with those finger units... they ca be fussy. great pictures !!

dr bob


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## tjcruiser

Looks like a glitch with the video, T-Man. Worth another shot? Would love to see it!

TJ


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## T-Man

The video is working. My track is less than stellar with problems. The tube is stiff and did not agree with the turns. Finally I had a geter dun session. It ends with the video. It is short but I like the detail. Enjoy!

This week has been a bear for bad connectivity. That video took a long time to up load.


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## Jwh2000

Video not working


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## T-Man

I can view my own videos. I have no idea why you can't.


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## flyguy55

Nice project coming along well.....Need another one or anyone want to follow along at home....See for sale board......


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