# using turn outs & cross overs with dcc



## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Hi everyone. I have a question first of all. when I was a kid, I had a DC layout, With track switches, ( turnouts ). My locomotives operated great with the switches. My question is.will switches, (turnouts ) work with dcc with no special things added? I thought I read once that dcc won't work with switches like the old DC did,unless you do something with the layout. Or was I dreaming.? Thank you for any help..


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## Catweasel (Nov 17, 2015)

Hi there mate. Track switches don't need any special treatment for DCC. But are you N or HO? Do you have live or dead frog switches. If live frog you'll have to use a switch to change the polarity. Machines like Tortoise have the facility built in, as do solenoid types like SEEPs. The only major concern with DCC is making sure that power is reaching all the track all the time. Isolating breaks aren't needed,but a section of tack for programming decoders is advised. Again, a DPDT switch can be used or an auto switch from NCE makes it easier. Go for it mate. Like you, I came in from the cold after a long break and now that I've embraced DCC I won't go back.


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Thanks catweasel. I am in ho scale. And sorry, but I have no idea what live and dead FROG switches mean, ( are ). What needs the polarity changed? Again I'm sorry for the not understanding, I'm new to this dcc thing.


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## Catweasel (Nov 17, 2015)

*Turnouts and switches*

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html

The above link may be of help to you. Basically, if you have a metal frog, the "vee" beyond the blades, you have live frog turnouts. If plastic, they're dead frogs. Live are better and not difficult to wire up. It's the vee that needs the polarity changed. Brian's website should explain things much better.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

As Catweasel said, some brands of turnouts -- live frog and power routing -- can require additional effort to get them to work in DCC, so I guess that would make the answer to your question "sometimes". It really isn't very difficult to do, though; not worth throwing away perfectly good pieces over.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I think we are confoosicating the Alaska railroad.

There is no difference whatever in the use of turnouts
or crossings with DCC. It is exactly the same as your
old DC. If your locos ran fine through layouts and crossings
on your DC layout, they will run fine after conversion to DCC.

The other posters mention
insulated frogs. Most are. (they are plastic). These affect short wheel base
locos with only 4 wheel power pickup. It makes no
difference whether DC or DCC; if they don't get continuous
power going through a turnout or
crossing, they will pause, stall or flicker their lights.

There are turnouts made with metal frogs. The frog is
often powered through the points contact with the
rails, thus flipping the polarity of the frog. The frog
rails must be isolated from attached tracks to avoid
a short circuit, but this is true whether DC or DCC.
I doubt you have that type of turnout.

Wiring a DCC layout is as simple as it gets. Unless you have a large
complex layout, you basically run 2 wires from your DCC controller
to the track. If a larger oval, for example, you may want to make
additional track feeds.

Track and loco wheel cleanliness is very important, and does affect
train operations. 

Some manufacturers make claims of DCC compatibility. It's
nonsense. Any turnout or crossing is DCC compatible and
requires no special wiring.

Don


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Ok, thank you all for your time. It's good to no there are people willing to help others in cases like this. I think I understand now how it works. Again, thanks. "ALASKA RAILROAD".....


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Just curious , what do you all recommend using, between the insulated and non insulated frogs? And why do you have that preference. I don't own any turn outs yet.I'm a little puzzled on this subject. I just read a little about this on a Web site catweasel sent me, and it sounds like insulated frogs can make smaller loco's such as 0-4-0 - and 0-6-0's pause or stall. I am using bachmann ez track, do any of you know if there switches ( turnouts ) are insulated or non.I do want to keep my layout simple and easy. Thanks. AK RAILROAD


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## Catweasel (Nov 17, 2015)

*Turnouts and switches*

I'm not familiar with Bachman EZ track, but I think it's the equivilentof our Hornby Or Peco Setrack. If that's the case, it would have dead frogs and the larger the radius the longer the dead portion will be. I would advise you to fit live frog points if only to help the running of small 4 or 6 wheel loco's. The wiring isn't difficult and you'll benefit all round.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

I don't know about the frogs on their turnouts but make sure you get the nickle silver track with the gray roadbed. The other is steel and needs much more cleaning.
Clean track is essential for DCC. Also clean power pick up wheels. 

From the pictures I would say that they are insulated frogs.

Magic


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have some rivarossi E8 diesels with only 4 wheel power pickup. These are
not premium locos but I like them and they seem to run smooth enough on DC
and I want to convert them to DCC. I know they will stall/pause going through
#6 or larger turnouts with only 4 wheel pickup. I plan on using TCS decoders
with "keep alive" feature. They will power the locos for about 10 or 12 seconds
with absolutely no power to loco. That will be plenty of time to get through a
turnout and I will have no stall or pause.


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Ok, Thank you all. Your all great help. One more question. Let's say I have 2 curves at the end of my layout joined together using turnouts, and I want to leave a locomotive on one section of the turnout, idling with lights on. Now if I switch the turnout, will that cause the idling loco to stop, because the power will be lost to that section of my turnout? ( track ) it looks like I will be using insulated frogs. If I will lose power to one section, can I make the tracks have all power without shorting out my system? Thank you..


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

[Post didn't show up at first, and I like the reworded answer below better]


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

With the Bachmann EZ track, you don't get to choose electro or insulated frogs. All theirs are insulated. All you pick is whether you want a stationary decoder to operate the turnout via your DCC system, and the angle of the turnout (#4, #5, etc). The number refers to the distance the diverging leg runs forward for every unit of distance it diverges -- in other words, with a #4, your train will travel 4" forward for every 1" it moves sideways from it's original track.

The other behavior -- isolating sidings using turnouts -- only occurs with power routing turnouts, which Bachmann's aren't. You don't need these w/DCC, but it's simple to solder a jumper in if you used some by mistake.


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Ok, CT VALLEY RR, does this mean all of my tracks will stay live, regardless where my switches are positioned using the bachmann switches?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Mopac

Have you checked to see if you can't add brass wipers to the wheels
on your loco without them? I don't know those trucks but most
seem to be capable of being upgraded. That would help your
power pickup immensely. I noticed on one that I worked on the
unwired truck actually had the casting for the wiper already in.

Alaska:

You can check the frogs on your turnouts. If they are plastic
they obviously are not powered. CTvalley says the Bachmann EZ
turnouts are not power routing, thus all of your layout would be
powered all of the time regardless of turnout point setting. 

Using the EZ track, you would use only the metal connections, no
insulated joiners. They are used only when you want an isolated
section of track. That apparently is not needed for your layout.

Don


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## alaska railroad (Oct 20, 2015)

Ok.thanks don.that's what I was hoping for.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks Don. That might not be a bad idea. I need to check the power pickup truck
and see how the wiper works and see if I can duplicate that on the non pickup truck.
Still would not be a premium loco cause they will still be 4 wheel drive not 8. The 
motor sits on top of the power truck. They have issues. Plastic frame, plastic shell.
Easy to add weight though. All kinds of room under the shell. Motor is isolated so
easy to convert to DCC. Plenty of room for a speaker or two but probably not worth
adding sound also just DCC. You would think rivarossi would make a decent diesel,
but that's not the case. I hear the motor is weak also. Mine are for passenger trains
and I have seen them pull 6 passenger cars so powerful enough for me. They are
quite and smooth running.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Found a pic I took without a shell.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Kinda hard to tell, but it appears that the 'motor' truck is also
the power pickup truck. The red and blue wires running the
length of the frame appear to feed the headlight. I see a
diode in series with it so that it would burn only when moving
forward. If that is the case you would want to add wipers to
the other truck and simply connect them to where the
blue ends at the light, (left wheels) and where the red ends before the
diode. (right wheels) Thatway the motor would get the power pickup
that you have added.

Looks like plenty of room to add weight for better traction.

You definitely would want to do a stall test on that loco
before ordering a DCC decoder. I suspect the motor will draw
heavy current. If so, you would want a decoder capable
of handling it.

Don


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks. Yes the powered truck is also the pickup truck. Red and blue wire is just for headlight. I will do the stall test on it. If draw is too much I will forget the project.
I think I bought 4 sets of these E8s. Each set had a powered loco and a dummy.
And then I bought the passenger cars for them, so I hope they will convert to DCC.
I thought I bought them late 80s or early 90s but info on line dates them at production
ended 75. I guess they were NOS. Bought from a train store online. Well online means
it had to be after 95. I started with windows 95. I think I got them from Trainworld,
for about $29 per set.

They are still new in the box and unrun. I got too many engines that I have still not run.
I hate my layout and have not run for at least 10 years. Nuts. The track was great. I could run
for hours and no derail, I just hate the design. New layout is coming soon.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are decoders that are designed to control a loco
with heavy current draw motors, so once you do the
stall test you'll know what decoder to buy. There is
no need to replace the motor.

Don


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