# Questions about large scale setups



## Texas Rattler (Aug 13, 2012)

My questions stem from this video. 




After watching this entire video, I had dozens of questions after but finally settled on a few once I did some further research.

*Why would you use risers/small foam panels versus a large foam board?* I am starting to see why people choose to do foam insulation boards. There doesn't seem to be any real reason why you would use risers for the rail and then small foam panels for building foundations and adjusting to the same elevation as the risers. It literally made me ask "so why not just start with a 1" foam board and cut into it for things like the dry river bed?". But then I see layouts that are built on a flat surface and they look artificial. So is the secret in separating your installation surfaces (hence risers and small foam panels) or is it in the use of the plaster cloth (which creates "texture" and "imperfections") or both?
*Does elevation cause misalignment?* This is merely a question of geometry: wouldn't the track that is on flat layout be shorter than the track you lay on a grade? Even an 1/16" shorter I would think would cause some connection issues requiring you to reorient things. I would think this could get a bit frustrating after getting everything installed and find out your pieces don't fit. Elevation would almost require adjustments post-grade install depending on how high you go.
*Do you need to "fold" track when transitioning to/from grade to flat track?* I would think there is a small radius caused when going to/from a grade to flat track. You would either need to bend the track slightly (don't like this idea), round the transition edge to/from grade to flat (seems best but not covered in the video), or have a short piece of floating track (seems unstable causing vibrations which may cause derailed trains).
*Do you really need all the different types of glues or is there a "must have" and "nice to have" list?* I have done models for a long time. I have tons of adhesives ranging from wood glue to industrial epoxy (for carbon fiber/fiberglass). I've never worked with foam though. I do know that some adhesives will melt foam. Playing it safe, I would say buy all the stuff and not question sagely advice. But I also know sometimes salesmen will sell you stuff that you rarely need or may need just to get a sale. Not to say Woodland Scenic is that way, just too new to tell the difference.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My question is, if it's so fast and easy, why does it take a full hour video to tell you about it?


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

So you say "large scale setups". Do you mean layouts that are in a larger scale (O and bigger?) or ones that take up a lot of space? I ask because the WS products won't be appropriate for the larger scales.

Questions 1 and 4 are easily addressed. You're watching a Woodland Scenics video. If you listen to them, all you have to do is drop a lot of money on their products, and you'll be all set. They're trying to make money, and they spend a lot of time and effort on instructional videos and even "how to" clinics at train shows. But this is all about selling product. Their stuff works, and it's good quality, but it's only ONE way, out of hundreds of possible ways to build a layout. They're not going to tell you the other ways, because they want you to spend money doing it their way. Watch some other videos, or read some other threads here, and you'll find lots of options, one of which is, you guessed it, large extruded foam insulating panels. But if you do buy everything from them, you can make a very high quality layout and not think much about it. You can also use SOME WS products and not others. I use their "incline starters" because it's an easy way to get a nice, smooth grade. One word about plaster cloth -- you have to cover it with something else (a thin layer or plaster, or other products such as Sulptamold), otherwise you're left with a very unrealistic cross-hatched pattern from the weave of the cloth)

Adhesives are a separate topic. Yes, you need a few different ones, but everything sold by WS is just a marked up version of something you can get at a craft or hardware store more cheaply. "Scenery Cement" can be made by diluting white glue or artists acrylic matte medium. Do some research on this topic. Our materials are very light -- you don't need industrial strength adhesives to hold them in place. Adhesive latex caulk is a good option for laying roadbed and track, as is Liquid Nails for Projects (which is foam safe).

Question 2: You're not wrong about the geometry, but you didn't do the math. 36" of track which rises 1.08" (a 3% grade -- about the steepest practical grade for a model railroad) is 36.016" long. Not enough variance (a little over 1/64") to worry about. However, you need to plan your layout first before building it. Don't just assume everything will line up, especially if using sectional or roadbed track.

Question 3: about the worst thing you can do when laying track is to introduce a kink. If building an incline with sectional / roadbed track, the tack joints will provide the change in incline (and again, the angle is small enough that no shaping of the rails is necessary). Best practice is to use a the longest available piece over the start of the incline, so that there is a more gradual transition at each end of that piece. If using flex track, let the flex of the metal smooth your transition. Never "float" track. Shim it with something (foam, styrene or wood scraps).


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Little late to this party but throwing in some replies.



Texas Rattler said:


> *Why would you use risers/small foam panels versus a large foam board?*


Lots of ways to "skin this cat". Only using flat pieces of foam to support pieces that needs to be flat uses less material, and in-filling with plaster cloth over other materials to shape the terrain easily creates varied ground shapes.

You can also use large pieces of insulation foam and cut and carve it.

You can also not use any foam at all and go with any of the various traditional wood construction, whether flat or "cookie-cutter" plywood table top, or spline on risers, etc.

You can go all-in on the Woodland Scenics foam pieces, or not use it at all.

Build scenery forms from foam, wood, cardboard strips, metal screening, mix and match techniques, etc.



Texas Rattler said:


> *Does elevation cause misalignment?*


I suppose it would, but I also wouldn't be building a layout from sectional track pieces, but use flex tracks at least - so you're cutting and fitting pieces anyway and wouldn't care/notice about this issue. (At any rate, track pieces can always be custom cut to fit.)



Texas Rattler said:


> *Do you need to "fold" track when transitioning to/from grade to flat track?*


Abrupt transition (kink) bad. Gradual transition (smooth) good. Don't bend the track vertically, let it find its own transition into the grade.



Texas Rattler said:


> *Do you really need all the different types of glues or is there a "must have" and "nice to have" list?*


Honestly you can do a lot with white glue or carpenter's glue and construction adhesives if you really need to get into a serious project. White or yellow glue will take some time to dry, but willwork on a lot of things.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

It is kind of old, but I do find it a little odd that the OP, despite being a long-standing member who has visited the forum since, hasn't been back to this thread (at least to comment).


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

With 17 posts in nine years we should be hearing back from him around March of next year.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> With 17 posts in nine years we should be hearing back from him around March of next year.


----------

