# Hello, I have questions about a first build.



## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Hello. I have a few questions that I'm sure will lead into many more questions if I go through with this. 

When I was a kid ( I'm 40 now) I had a n HO scale set up that my dad set up for me every Xmas, it was a basic 4x8 platform. I always loved that time of year. And I always wanted to build something bigger and better. I never did however. 

Now, I have a 2 year old son and I brought out all my old trains. They haven't been run in 30 years but I got a few of them going and my son loves it. It has re- kindled that fire to build something permanent. 

So, now. My first question to you experts is this. Is it possible to build something decent, in HO scale, in a 10x13 foot room? I was thinking something "L" shape against the wall. 

Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Layout planning*



Mattsn said:


> Hello. I have a few questions that I'm sure will lead into many more questions if I go through with this.
> 
> When I was a kid ( I'm 40 now) I had a n HO scale set up that my dad set up for me every Xmas, it was a basic 4x8 platform. I always loved that time of year. And I always wanted to build something bigger and better. I never did however.
> 
> ...


Mattsn;

Yes. you could certainly build a nice HO scale model railroad in a 10'x13' room. The L shape sounds good. When deciding the depth/width of the two legs of your L shape; consider access. If a 4' wide section is against a wall, reaching the back will be difficult/impossible.
You say you're 40 now. This reach or crawl under will get worse as you get older.(I'm 67)
If, on the other hand, you have access on both sides of the layout, then the 4' section becomes two 2' sections. A much more manageable situation.
My recommendations: (for what their worth!)

1) You already have a good space and basic idea. All that's needed is a more specific plan.
Nobody did track planning better than the late John Armstrong. His book,"Track Planning for Realistic Operation" www.kalmbach.com has been THE reference book for model railroaders for decades. I would suggest getting a copy; and also the book,"102 Track Plans". This book is from the same publisher, Kalmbach. The reason for the second book is simplicity. It contains actual drawings of track plans for all sorts, and sizes of places. You should find several that will fit, or can be adapted to fit, your space. "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" is a lot more than just drawings of track shapes. It explains, in detail, many aspects of real railroading, and how to represent them in model form. 
You might want to start with the second book, and get the other one later.
2) Build your railroad in sections.
This will let you do things that may not be possible with a large, one piece, permanent layout. I am so glad that I built my railroad in sections. It has survived one house move, and 
a re-shaping to fit the new space. Also, I became partially disabled, and cannot stand and work on the layout as I used too. Being able to take a section to my workbench, has saved the hobby for me. A layout the size you're contemplating, may take years, even decades, of little bits of spare time to finish. None of us knows what our future will be. It's best to build in all the flexibility you can.
3) Keep it light. A model railroad only has to support models, not real locomotives! I've seen some overbuilt specimens that look, and feel, when you try to move them, like they were meant to hold the real train. These days, extruded styrofoam has become very popular for model railroads. This is sold in blue, and pink 4'x8' and smaller panels at home improvement stores. It is made for home insulation, but it makes a great base for a model railroad, and can be carved and painted int very convincing scenery.
3) Go DCC now. DCC(Digital Command Control) is a system of controlling more than one train, on the same track, with minimal wiring. It also allows better control of train speed and smoothness, and sound effects from the train. It works by putting a tiny receiver in the locomotive and sending digital signals through the rails from a command station.

That's it, at least for now. Feel free to ask any further questions you have;

Traction Fan


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Thank you for the advice. The books you recommend are definitely going to be a first purchase I am very stumped on track layout, design and how many I can fit in the given space. 

I've thought about the styrofoam and a few other thoughts for a light constructed platform. 

Thanks again, and in advance for any additional info


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## grashley (Aug 27, 2015)

Can you build a decent...... YES YOU CAN!!!

To start, get some sectional track for TEMPORARY layouts on a single 4x8 just to play with. Add a few turnouts or crossings and go to town! Enjoy Yourself!!!

As you play with your son and read layout books, you will develop your own likes and dislikes. You may even wish to keep this play table while you build phase 1 of your layout just to have a place to run the trains.

Since you are starting fresh, definitely go with DCC for all future purchases (loco only, I think?). With any layout you might contemplate, you will want DCC.

When you decide on a layout, I suggest Flex Track as the most versatile, easiest way to get what you want. By then, you will have MANY more questions.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I would not recommend DCC just yet. If you don't have one, and still want to go DCC because of what you understand about its capabilities, you will also have to do one of two things: purchase a DCC-capable locomotive or convert one of the old ones. Just so you know, unless you are very handy and like electronics as a hobby, converting an old DC locomotive to DCC isn't for the novice. It can get expensive if you keep frying decoders upon power-up.

Nostalgia aside, is your goal to get up and running before Christmas? Then you should operate in DC for the time being and convert to DCC after Christmas. Trying to rush into setting up a layout AND converting to DCC is likely to result in several sharp disappointments for you and your family (hint, not just the kids...).

Good luck. Take some breaths and think this through. Your local hobby shop will sell you a new DC controller for maybe $40 and you could be operational in a couple of hours. 

Baby steps.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

mesenteria said:


> I would not recommend DCC just yet. If you don't have one, and still want to go DCC because of what you understand about its capabilities, you will also have to do one of two things: purchase a DCC-capable locomotive or convert one of the old ones. Just so you know, unless you are very handy and like electronics as a hobby, converting an old DC locomotive to DCC isn't for the novice. It can get expensive if you keep frying decoders upon power-up.
> 
> Nostalgia aside, is your goal to get up and running before Christmas? Then you should operate in DC for the time being and convert to DCC after Christmas. Trying to rush into setting up a layout AND converting to DCC is likely to result in several sharp disappointments for you and your family (hint, not just the kids...).
> 
> ...



I already have my old 4x8 platform up and running. I was able to get 2 out of my 6 trains running. The others show signs of life but not really moving. I did buy one new Bachman diesel engine and using my old DC transformer controllers 

What I'm considering to do would be completely independent of this setup and would be a long term project. I would love build a "realistic" scenery set up.


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## thedoc (Oct 15, 2015)

Mattsn said:


> I already have my old 4x8 platform up and running. I was able to get 2 out of my 6 trains running. The others show signs of life but not really moving. I did buy one new Bachman diesel engine and using my old DC transformer controllers
> 
> What I'm considering to do would be completely independent of this setup and would be a long term project. I would love build a "realistic" scenery set up.



If you want to build realistic scenery don't try to stuff too much track into your space, use just the minimum amount of track to run your trains and leave room for scenery. Too many track plans get ruined by being a bowl of spaghetti with little or no room for scenery. KISS (Keep it Simple, Stupid!) don't use any more track than necessary, the real railroads didn't lay track just for fun, they had to pay tax on every foot of rail that was put down, so they only laid what was absolutely necessary.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Mattsn said:


> I already have my old 4x8 platform up and running. I was able to get 2 out of my 6 trains running. The others show signs of life but not really moving. I did buy one new Bachman diesel engine and using my old DC transformer controllers
> 
> What I'm considering to do would be completely independent of this setup and would be a long term project. I would love build a "realistic" scenery set up.


Good for you! I have made it a goal to try new techniques of both construction and scenery each time I have built a layout. It is rewarding. Just avoid expenditures that are unnecessary by figuring out what you must purchase and what you don't really need, especially duplicates. Or, as I have done, try several techniques to find which one works best for you...plaster cloth, woven cardboard strips covered with plaster-covered shop towels, window screen and ground goop, carved extruded insulation foamboard,.... Buy the plaster at hardware stores if you'll need lots of it as the prices there will beat hobby shops. Same with wire mesh and foam of varying thicknesses. Cereal boxes work well for the strips.

Good advice just above about minimizing the tracks. Simple, interesting, robust, and reliable. Miss any one of these on a layout, especially with the tracks and connections to power, and you will have a source of disappointment, particularly when you start using the less-forgiving DCC.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*DC for now. DCC later?*



mesenteria said:


> I would not recommend DCC just yet. If you don't have one, and still want to go DCC because of what you understand about its capabilities, you will also have to do one of two things: purchase a DCC-capable locomotive or convert one of the old ones. Just so you know, unless you are very handy and like electronics as a hobby, converting an old DC locomotive to DCC isn't for the novice. It can get expensive if you keep frying decoders upon power-up.
> 
> Nostalgia aside, is your goal to get up and running before Christmas? Then you should operate in DC for the time being and convert to DCC after Christmas. Trying to rush into setting up a layout AND converting to DCC is likely to result in several sharp disappointments for you and your family (hint, not just the kids...).
> 
> ...


Mattson;

Although I recommended DCC now, I have to agree with part of the above quote from mesenteria. Starting out simple is a good idea. I still favor DCC, but it can wait awhile. The advantage of starting out with DCC is that you haven't yet acquired a bunch of locomotives that have to be converted.(as most of us have done!) When you do get far enough along to buy another locomotive; I would recommend getting one with a DCC decoder already installed. You would then also need a basic DCC start up system. DonR, on this forum, has a Bachman brand starter set with two DCC equipped locos and the DCC start up control system. He has been using for some time with very good results. You might want to ask him about that.
I disagree, somewhat, with the notion that DCC decoders are difficult to install. That would depend on which loco, and which decoder. Some just plug in, others require some basic soldering. There are good books on DCC at the same www.kalmbach.com site.
That can wait though, for now follow the good suggestion above, and start out simple and have fun. There are enough facets to this hobby to keep all of us trying, and learning for a lifetime.
No one gets everything perfect right away; or needs to. Take all the time, and ask all the questions, you want.

We are glad to help!

Traction Fan
:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice. I'm nervous and excited at the same time. I'll take more accurate measurements tonight and figure more out. I'm thinking maybe I could do something bigger than the "L" shape. Maybe something that I could stand in the middle of as it went around me. .


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## grashley (Aug 27, 2015)

My DCC comments were for the new layout and future purchases. For the old layout, KISS. 

When planning the new layout, remember to keep all track easy to reach. 4 ft from the edge to the wall is really hard to get to!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Mattsn said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I'm nervous and excited at the same time. I'll take more accurate measurements tonight and figure more out. I'm thinking maybe I could do something bigger than the "L" shape. Maybe something that I could stand in the middle of as it went around me. .


If you want to do continuous running, a C shaped layout with bulbs at each end for the loops is very doable. This leaves one side open for entering / exiting.

Don't agonize over the design too much. Getting back in after this much time is like doing it for the first time. Much of your first attempt will not measure up to your standards / needs after you've been back for a while. Use this first attempt as a learning tool and be prepared to throw most of it out and start again at some point down the road. Most of us do!

And don't forget the two most important rules:
1) It's your layout; do what you want to.
2) Have fun!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Round the room layout*



Mattsn said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I'm nervous and excited at the same time. I'll take more accurate measurements tonight and figure more out. I'm thinking maybe I could do something bigger than the "L" shape. Maybe something that I could stand in the middle of as it went around me. .


 Mattsn;

A shelf layout around the room is a good layout shape. Many fine layouts have been built this way. A few words of caution though. Don't build a layout where you have to duck under part of it to get into the center. This will get old, very quickly; and as you get old(like me) it will get a lot worse. The best plan for a wall-hugging layout is a walk in design. This means you can walk
upright into the center area, without ducking or crawling. Such layouts often have a wider "peninsula" section at one, or both ends. This allows the train room enough to turn around.
Since the peninsula sticks out into the room,(much as its geographical namesake sticks out into the water) it can be wider and still have everything reachable, as you have access from both sides of the peninsula. John Armstrong liked this arrangement, and dealt quite thoroughly with it in his book on track planning. 
If you must go all the way around the room, include a hinged section of railroad that can fold down, when you need to walk in; and back up, to run trains. I have built such a hinged section, where my garage, shelf railroad crosses in front of a door. My layout also has a peninsula at one end and a wide spot at the other, where trains can turn. Since my railroad is N scale, it does not need as much space to turn as an HO scale one does. That's one of the advantages of a smaller scale.
For now enjoy the temporary set up and study the books. When your ready, you can start your bigger layout. Oh! That's the other cation I wanted to give you. Don't, "bite off more than you can chew". Our imaginations tend to outpace our skill levels, and such sensible considerations of; how big to build, how many features will fit, and how many years/decades/centuries it will take to build the thing! One's "dream layout" can turn into a nightmare quite easily! (Don't ask me how I learned this!)
It's much better to build small, and simple and complete; than grandiose, big and never working! As another post said KISS.

Regards;
Traction Fan

PS. Below are a few pictures of my railroad. One shows my peninsula, and another a section removed for repairs.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Traction fan... Those are some nice pics. It looks like that's a pretty large layout. Thanks for adding to my motivation. 

I appreciate all the tips guys. It will be a while before I'm far enough to really think k about the DC Vs DCC. however I'll be starting a new thread when I'm at that point.. 

What do you guys recommend for building the base? I see alot of pics using a 2x5 construction. I'm thinking king this isn't going g to weigh thay much. Is there something lighter /smaller that can be used?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Light Construction*



Mattsn said:


> Traction fan... Those are some nice pics. It looks like that's a pretty large layout. Thanks for adding to my motivation.
> 
> I appreciate all the tips guys. It will be a while before I'm far enough to really think k about the DC Vs DCC. however I'll be starting a new thread when I'm at that point..
> 
> What do you guys recommend for building the base? I see alot of pics using a 2x5 construction. I'm thinking king this isn't going g to weigh thay much. Is there something lighter /smaller that can be used?


Mattsn;

I think you might mean 2x4, as I have not seen a "2x5" Your layout does not need to be made of anything as heavy as 2x4s in order to be strong. A popular frame is an open grid of 1x3s. The legs can be 2x2s, or better yet, an L-girder(like a wood "angle iron")of a 1x3 and a 1x2, glued at the edge where the two join. Legs need to be stabilized using diagonal bracing. this can be simple 1x2s.
On top of your framework I would recommend laying, not gluing, four 4'x2'x 1/4" thick piece of plywood. I use Luan plywood for its smoother finish, but any type of ply will work. On top of that,glue four 4'x2'x1"-2" thick sheets of extruded foam.(blue, or pink, not the white bead board)
The reason for not gluing the plywood to the frame is that a section of plywood/foam based layout can be removed and worked on at the workbench or table. You can turn it upside down, or sideways, which makes it a lot easier to mount switch machines wiring, terminal strips, and whatever else has to go under the table. The plywood can be secured to the frame with adhesive-backed, Velcro, or magnet tape, stapled to the top of the frame. Some folks leave out the plywood sheet, and mount the foam directly to the open grid frame. I recommend using the plywood, as it will provide a mounting surface for wiring and switch machines under the table.

Traction Fan

PS. My layout is not that big. It basically hangs along one wall of my garage; with a wider peninsula at each end. The section shown removed is only 16"x 16" in cross section and 4' long.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Yes I did intend to say 2x4. Not sure how I missed that. 
Thanks again. You seem to be a wealth of knowledge. I hope I can pick your brain on future questions.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Wealth of Knowledge?*



Mattsn said:


> Yes I did intend to say 2x4. Not sure how I missed that.
> Thanks again. You seem to be a wealth of knowledge. I hope I can pick your brain on future questions.


 Mattsn; 

Thanks for the nice(if not exactly true) compliment. My wife, daughters, and some members of this forum might disagree with your assessment of my knowledge! :laugh: As for picking what's left of my senile old brain, of course you are welcome to. There is a line from a song in the Broadway Musical, "Three bites of the apple" , that I've always liked. The play is set in the garden of Eden. The line is sung by Eve, referring to Adam, but it's really all womankind referring to all mankind. "Although he knows a multitude of things, they're mostly wrong!":dunno:
One excellent book I forgot to recommend to you is, "N scale Railroading--getting started in the hobby" by Marty McGuirk. It's another Kalmbach publishing book. No, I haven't forgotten that you are modeling in HO scale. This book is just such a good starting out book, that I recommend it to beginners in any scale. Nearly all the information in it can be applied to scales other than N anyway.
Your question about building benchwork triggered my memory, as that's the first of many things covered in this book. Other things covered are; wiring(both DC and DCC), Locomotives,cars, couplers, structures,and scenery. I don't know of any other single book that covers all those subjects as easily and as well.

Merry Christmas!

Traction Fan


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

My own thoughts on getting started (from another person who hasn't had a layout since he was a kid and has spent the past year getting up to speed)... You already know what space you have available, so look over layout designs and find aspects of layouts that appeal to you. As you're browsing through, you may find a particular style suits the space you have.

Someone already mentioned a C shape layout for your room. In my particular case, when I was a kid I found a Z shaped layout that really stuck with me. Depending on what you find, your layout may require reverse-loops at either end, or it may be a continuous circle layout. Don't fret about the details, just think about the simple shape of it. Maybe there are other aspects that you would like to include ... a double-mainline, a large switching yard, mountainous crossovers, and ocean-front port ... consider the things you would like, and think about where they might make sense in the basic shape of your layout. You might sketch out the general design, or you might jump into some modeling software to create an accurate layout. You start out adding things to the basic design, like a double mainline, figure out how multiple trains could run without interfering with each other, and then add something else like a switching yard. Keep playing with every aspect until you're happy with the potential for running trains or creating landscape features. At this point you're ready to actually start building something!


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Yes I still have alot of planning to do. I am going to take more measurements this weekend in order to have a more accurate idea of size. I would definitely want 2 main lines and maybe a 3rd elevated one. 

I want to make the most out of the space I have which isn't alot in my opinion. I'm currently looking for the book "102 track plans" I have noticed some people talking about the computer programs to design layouts, however I don't have a computer, just an iPad.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Amen!*



Shdwdrgn said:


> My own thoughts on getting started (from another person who hasn't had a layout since he was a kid and has spent the past year getting up to speed)... You already know what space you have available, so look over layout designs and find aspects of layouts that appeal to you. As you're browsing through, you may find a particular style suits the space you have.
> 
> Someone already mentioned a C shape layout for your room. In my particular case, when I was a kid I found a Z shaped layout that really stuck with me. Depending on what you find, your layout may require reverse-loops at either end, or it may be a continuous circle layout. Don't fret about the details, just think about the simple shape of it. Maybe there are other aspects that you would like to include ... a double-mainline, a large switching yard, mountainous crossovers, and ocean-front port ... consider the things you would like, and think about where they might make sense in the basic shape of your layout. You might sketch out the general design, or you might jump into some modeling software to create an accurate layout. You start out adding things to the basic design, like a double mainline, figure out how multiple trains could run without interfering with each other, and then add something else like a switching yard. Keep playing with every aspect until you're happy with the potential for running trains or creating landscape features. At this point you're ready to actually start building something!


 Shdwdrgn;

That is some excellent advice!

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Book source*



Mattsn said:


> Yes I still have alot of planning to do. I am going to take more measurements this weekend in order to have a more accurate idea of size. I would definitely want 2 main lines and maybe a 3rd elevated one.
> 
> I want to make the most out of the space I have which isn't alot in my opinion. I'm currently looking for the book "102 track plans" I have noticed some people talking about the computer programs to design layouts, however I don't have a computer, just an iPad.


Mattsn;

Have you tried www.amazon.com and www.kalmbach.com ? I just looked on Kalmbach's site and didn't find 102 track plans either. It may be out of print. You can substitute, "101 More Track Plans for Model Railroads", which is on the site. It will work just as well. " Also missing from the site was "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" by John Armstrong. You might try "planning Your Model Railroad" by Tony Koester. I've not read that one but I have seen a lot of articles by Tony Koester. He is very knowledgeable. I would still try to get a used copy of John Armstrong's book from Amazon or wherever. It is excellent. The third book I recommended, "N scale Railroading" getting started in the hobby, Is available on Kalmbach's site.

Sorry, "The font of knowledge"  gave you some out of date info. :smilie_auslachen: 

Hope this helps make up for it!

Traction Fan


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

traction fan said:


> Mattsn;
> 
> Have you tried www.amazon.com and www.kalmbach.com ?
> 
> Traction Fan



Yes, I ordered it through kalmbach last night


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks. The Z layout I mentioned has been lost for decades, all I really remembered was that it was a big Z with reverse-loops on each end. I took this basic concept for my own purposes -- made it a double-mainline through the loops, planned for the center leg to be a mountain range, and added various sidings and a switching yard to give myself a lot to do. And then I went crazy and added narrow-gauge to the whole mix.

The point is that instead of getting overwhelmed by a huge layout, I just started with a basic concept and kept adding things to it. When you're responsible for each little addition, the whole thing suddenly doesn't feel so out of reach, and judging by comments I've seen, I think that's a point that a lot of new folks miss. The plans for my layout in their current form would appear massively overwhelming to a lot of people, but if I drew the basic starting point for them it would be much clearer.


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Shdwdrgn said:


> Thanks. The Z layout I mentioned has been lost for decades, all I really remembered was that it was a big Z with reverse-loops on each end. I took this basic concept for my own purposes -- made it a double-mainline through the loops, planned for the center leg to be a mountain range, and added various sidings and a switching yard to give myself a lot to do. And then I went crazy and added narrow-gauge to the whole mix.
> 
> The point is that instead of getting overwhelmed by a huge layout, I just started with a basic concept and kept adding things to it. When you're responsible for each little addition, the whole thing suddenly doesn't feel so out of reach, and judging by comments I've seen, I think that's a point that a lot of new folks miss. The plans for my layout in their current form would appear massively overwhelming to a lot of people, but if I drew the basic starting point for them it would be much clearer.



Any pictures of this layout if yours? I'm a long way off from laying track but I love seeing what you guys have .


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## Mattsn (Nov 22, 2015)

Traction fan. You can find the book "102 realistic track plans" at kalmbach hobby store. Com


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## RH1 (Jan 4, 2016)

Mattsn said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I'm nervous and excited at the same time. I'll take more accurate measurements tonight and figure more out. I'm thinking maybe I could do something bigger than the "L" shape. Maybe something that I could stand in the middle of as it went around me. .


A bit late to this conversation, but...

First of all, you can definitely do something nice with the space you have. Over the past few weeks, I have resurrected my old HO equipment (that was set up in a much larger room until 12 years ago) and created a functional layout in a room that is just over 8' x 8'. I wanted to be able to do some continuous running, so an "around the walls" design was really the only option. I tried to squeeze in a "folded dogbone" design, but I felt that I ended up wasting a lot of space, and it was difficult to create trackwork that wasn't full of s-curves and other problematic issues. Also, the "blobs" at the end of the dogbone would have to be at least 4' across (with 20" minimum radius curves), leaving me very little space for myself in the room.

With the space you have, it won't be as much of a problem. I do have a duckunder to get into the room - it was unavoidable - but the benchwork is 4' from the floor so it's not too bad to get in and out. I thought of going higher, but then some family members would need a stool to see the trains.

The challenge for me is to squeeze in all of the sidings and operational elements I want, while still leaving a bit of room for scenery and buildings. But challenges are what make this all so fun!

Enjoy!


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