# Sanitation Department at Work???????



## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

I don’t know about you, but I sure appreciate the censor free environment of the MTF. If our posts are in good taste and not malicious, they stay, *period*. Because of this, we are exposed to the real world, sometimes good, and others, not so good. I bring this up strictly because I recently received an e-mail from an MTF member who brought to my attention something that I think bothered him. You may recall a recent post to the MTF as follows:

*“This may not be the right place for this comment, but I will try anyway. We were lucky enough to have a friend bring over his new GG1 yesterday so we could all see him put it through it's paces. It is a beautiful engine and the sparking pantographs are awesome. But it kept stalling going through switches. We turned it over and it only has two pickup rollers. We were shocked to say the least. It was the poorest running engine on the layout except for the straightaways. Common Lionel, you are better than that and in a Vision Line at those prices?” 
*
Our MTF member who posted this comment, out of curiosity, did some research on other train forums to see if anybody else had reported such issues. What he found were only positive comments and absolutely no hint of the issues he experienced with this engine. He wondered if his experience was unique or had the Sanitation Department been at work. Hmmm, is it possible that in some places advertisers have privileges?

The last time I checked, we on the MTF don’t have a Sanitation Department. I’d say that is a department we really don’t need or want.

Your thoughts.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Wow. Adding pickups will be a common upgrade to those GG1s.

At those prices, it is both uncharacteristic of Lionel, and just head-up-your-butt stupid to put only two pickups on it.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

I am pretty sure I catch your reference Brian. The implication is that other forums delete unfavorable posts about advertisers. MTF does not. Yes we are fortunate to have that luxury and its why we are here. 

OGR may soon be sold or just melt away without a buyer. However, a loss to anything related to O gauge model railroading is a loss for the hobby. I hope they find competent management who can relate to their subscribers and rebuild a once great forum. Most of us who have come from OGR appear pretty settled in. We have done our fair share of venting. Let's hope time finds a good solution for OGR.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

It is strange that no one else has voiced concern over this issue on the other forum.

Bill


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

I doubt that a candid discussion like this would see the light of day, Bill.

Some forums have mastered the art of the *DELETE BUTTON*.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

*"The last time I checked, we on the MTF don’t have a Sanitation Department."*

To reinforce this statement, I don't think John owns any white work clothes.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

No way two pickup rollers can be spaced to account for all track situations. SMH.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"The last time I checked, we on the MTF don’t have a Sanitation Department."*
> 
> To reinforce this statement, I don't think John owns any white work clothes.


I'm a blue jeans kind of guy.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Has anyone asked Lionel about it? Seems like the place to start.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Brian, GRJ and myself are both 'blue jeans' types, but there really is a small "Sanitation Dept.". It typically deals with some "Problem Children" that need to be weeded out as Good forum members. It operates in the shadows!!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I got deleted over a joke. Before York last October I made a joke about people here in my town thought I was going to New York. When I told them I was going York, PA, they had no idea where I was talking about. I said something about a deer in the headlights look.

This got deleted and I didn't know it was deleted until a friend emailed me and told they deleted it. So I guess the 'sanitation department' opened a sewer pipe on me.Thus began my time on MTF.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Denny, We love and actually tolerate Jokes here. There have been some good ones in the "Have a Giggle" thread. It's all about sharing this hobby, no matter what gauge or aspect of the hobby. The few minor problems that pop up, get taken care of in a civil manner. That's one of the things that make MTF so great to be a part of.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I just posted a joke on 'Have a Giggle'.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

To get back to Brian's point. It has been said before but a product review that does not allow negative comments is just an advertisement. I used to read consumer reports. I enjoyed it because it gave unbiased reviews that were not connected in any way to the manufacturer. To be able to get an honest opinion on a product is a value. These trains are not cheap and no manufacturer is perfect. I look forward to being able to read posts like Lee's that will tell me his experience with a product that included the good as well as the warts.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

PatKn said:


> To get back to Brian's point. It has been said before but a product review that does not allow negative comments is just an advertisement. I used to read consumer reports. I enjoyed it because it gave unbiased reviews that were not connected in any way to the manufacturer. To be able to get an honest opinion on a product is a value. These trains are not cheap and no manufacturer is perfect. I look forward to being able to read posts like Lee's that will tell me his experience with a product that included the good as well as the warts.


I agree 100% Pat, and that is what the OGR forum was, i.e. one big advertisement.
Yes, Brian we here at MTF are blessed to be able to provide both negative and positive reviews.
Information is the most valuable commodity.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I agree 100% with Chipset.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

As the recent thread on track preferences shows, people can have very different experiences with the same product. On this forum, unlike the other one, people can express different views or relate different experiences without having to put up with snide and wholly irrelevant comments. 

I have to say that the information about the VL GG1 that has come out here and elsewhere stopped me from taking the plunge on that model. hwell:


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

I could never understand why forum members on OGR would blast anyone who did post a problem with a product of an advertiser. I could in a way even though I didn't agree, the owners deleting negatives reviews or problems with a product of an advertiser. But when members jumped on a negative poster, it was hard to bear or read any further. When my Vision Line BB came back and the problem wasn't fixed and had screws and had a part broken off, and the coal depletion worked before I sent it off, yet didn't work when it came back, also headlight quit working. I got blasted for posting instead of contacting Lionel when I wanted to let others know just how fragile sending this engine through the mail, and problems that were not there before. Everything from its just a toy, to not posting before contacting Lionel, and one post saying my post wouldn't last long. How right, deleted within 1/2 hour into the nether land. 
I did learn several lessons, don't post or answer anything on their Forum. Don't complain about any problems with an advertisers product since they're only toys. Never spend that amount of money ever again on just toys.
Lee's, and several others here with their honest reviews of a product is what is needed in our hobby.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

walter said:


> ...Lee's, and several others here with their honest reviews of a product is what is needed in our hobby.


I agree with all the above, although I have to admit I wasn't involved with any other train forum before I joined here.

As far as Lee's reviews, after reading his comments on the Lionel Legacy UP SD-90MAC, I decided to purchase one. Everything he said was spot on, although I think I was a bit more excited than he was.  After owning only conventional steamers (basic smoke, whistle, etc.), the jump to a command controlled diesel was very rewarding.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I saw a post a young man did one OGR I thought it was a good post, but all they did was criticize his grammar. He tried to fix it, but they wouldn't back off. No one responded to his subject just his grammar.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

DennyM said:


> I saw a post a young man did one OGR I thought it was a good post, but all they did was criticize his grammar. He tried to fix it, but they wouldn't back off. No one responded to his subject just his grammar.


Ah, the grammar nazis. They're everywhere. Although I have the unfortunate trait of being able to spot improper grammar and misspelling a mile away, I try to refrain from correcting people. Some posts are almost impossible to read, so I just ignore them.


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I am the MTF forum member that brought up the two pick-up roller issue with Lionel's new Visionline GG1. I am still in a semi state of shock that Lionel would do this number one and that nobody is talking about it number two. 

At my last get-together a good friend brought over his new GG1 and was very anxious to see it run as were many others. All my other engines were running properly as was another friend's new Lionel Legacy EJ&E SD38. The GGI wouldn't run through the Atlas #5 switches in my Eola freight yard or the 072 switches leading into Union Station. We turned it over and were shocked to see only two pick-up rollers. 

I have read reviews on this engine and no one is saying anything negative about it....period. On any forum? I don't understand this? What am I missing here?

Art


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

highvoltage said:


> Ah, the grammar nazis. They're everywhere. Although I have the unfortunate trait of being able to spot improper grammar and misspelling a mile away, I try to refrain from correcting people. Some posts are almost impossible to read, so I just ignore them.


It's a curse, isn't it, highvoltage? I have that same trouble.
Nothing but perfect grammar, perfect spelling, complete sentences and horrible math!

But reverting back to topic, two pickups? I have a 1939 (?) Lionel 1668 that has two pickups.
It does throw hissy fits at turnouts sometimes.
Has Lionel not changed since then?
I mean, other than adding all the expensive electronic features that seem to go up in smoke at a derailment?

Just my view...........


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2017)

*"I don't understand this? What am I missing here?"*

I think some folks have become too accustomed to having their posts deleted at another place. Over the years, they have learned to comment on only the most positive of experiences when it comes to an advertiser. In a way, you might say the impact is a form of brain washing. 

*Not here!!!!!!* If you follow the various threads regularly, the Sanitation Department is on holiday in this regard.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2017)

*"I'm a blue jeans kind of guy"*

John, that's a very good thing. We don't need no stinkin white work clothes.


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2017)

Here's one for you Art posted by Lee on the MTF. There are others as well.

*"At those prices, it is both uncharacteristic of Lionel, and just head-up-your-butt stupid to put only two pickups on it."*


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

Selling your product by disparaging that of a competitor is not a good sales tactic, I'm just sayin'. I've found if you keep your message positive you'll sell more beans.

Since he's got a current thread over there on his layout's progress I wonder if Art posted the GG1 problem on the OGR forum, and if so did it get deleted? Is it possible that one of the pickup rollers got disconnected in transport?

My feeling is that OGR and MTF both are good forums. OGR has _lots_ more participants for sure, which makes for a larger knowledge/experience base.

Pete


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Pete - I did not post about the GG1 over there as I didn't think it would last long enough for anybody to read it. I have scanned the posts about the new GG1 over there and saw nothing but praise for how well it ran and etc. Made me wonder which Lionel GG1 they were using? And it was an intentional thing by Lionel, they didn't forget to put one on or had one that didn't work as we used an electrical meter to check to see if both of them worked and they did. The engine was just excellent at finding the dead spots on switches.

Art


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

highvoltage said:


> Ah, the grammar nazis. They're everywhere. Although I have the unfortunate trait of being able to spot improper grammar and misspelling a mile away, I try to refrain from correcting people. Some posts are almost impossible to read, so I just ignore them.


I agree. You should hear how some of these teenagers butcher the English language and then wonder why they can't get a job.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

DennyM said:


> I agree. You should hear how some of these teenagers butcher the English language and then wonder why they can't get a job.


Frankly I wasn't the best at sentence structure and writing in general until I got a job at a think tank. That really forced me to up my game, so to speak.

But I was always good at math, so that got me through high school and college.


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

Chugman said:


> Pete - I did not post about the GG1 over there as I didn't think it would last long enough for anybody to read it. I have scanned the posts about the new GG1 over there and saw nothing but praise for how well it ran and etc. Made me wonder which Lionel GG1 they were using? And it was an intentional thing by Lionel, they didn't forget to put one on or had one that didn't work as we used an electrical meter to check to see if both of them worked and they did. The engine was just excellent at finding the dead spots on switches.
> 
> Art


Art - maybe you could post about the GG1 problem over on OGR and see if it gets removed. There have been quite a few posts over there regarding Lion Chief problems, and I didn't notice those being removed.

Pete


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Well, another interesting thread here on the MTF.

Lionel should know by now where to place the right amount of pickups on a long locomotive. For crying out loud, Lionel's been making electric trains for over a hundred years!

I like the "in the shadows" sanitation department here. They do a fine job. 

And yes, grown men and even teenagers should know how to read and write.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

highvoltage said:


> Frankly I wasn't the best at sentence structure and writing in general until I got a job at a think tank. That really forced me to up my game, so to speak.
> 
> But I was always good at math, so that got me through high school and college.


I had learning disability when I was in grade school. English and math. My mother told me I would rearrange paragraphs and some how it worked. The teachers didn't like it so I always got a failing grade. Math I still struggle with. Algebra is out of the question. Hating every second I was in school didn't help either. Plus I had ADD or ADHD long before it had been identified.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

I don't judge grammar mistakes or errors, rather the content.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Chugman said:


> I have read reviews on this engine and no one is saying anything negative about it....period. On any forum? I don't understand this? What am I missing here?
> 
> Art


I think you must have missed the pre-censored content over at the other place, which lasted a while until someone from Lionel (Ryan K) intervened to deal with the OP's issue. Shortly after that the thread was deleted. To be fair, it stayed up long enough to raise serious concerns about the QC on the VL GG1. I for one decided that, VL or not, I really don't need another engine which might require an RA.

I won't repeat the all defects that were canvassed but they did NOT include just having two center pickup rollers. I guess that in the time available people concentrated on the immediately obvious finish, loose parts and DOA issues.

Actually the most troubling or at least embarrassing (from Lionel's point of view) as far as I was concerned is that the fancy Vision Line boxes describe the GG1 as a "steam locomotive." You could not make this stuff up.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I just don't understand all the angst caused by a post being deleted on a forum. It's just an internet forum, we're not writing information in medical journals! 

I've had posts deleted before, it just doesn't matter. I'm happy to have places that I can discuss and learn about model railroading and I'm so blessed to have met so many wonderful people through the hobby and the forums.

Tonight and tomorrow night I'm attending meetings of train groups I am a member of. So much fun running trains and so much to learn rather than worrying about post deletions.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> Actually the most troubling or at least embarrassing (from Lionel's point of view) as far as I was concerned is that the fancy Vision Line boxes describe the GG1 as a "steam locomotive." You could not make this stuff up.


I think, given that gaff on the box, you couldn't really expect a high quality model inside.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Transparency is one thing I have come to really value. When someone is hiding/censoring something, there is usually something I need to know. 

I like to run trains, too, but I like to know which ones are good and not, and get all the information. If someone is being negative, etc., let me decide if its objective or "too negative." I think I'm pretty good at that, but regardless, I want to do it, not have someone else save me the trouble.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2017)

*"I didn't think it would last long enough for anybody to read it”*

Whether you want to recognize this or not, *this is a big deal*. In some other places, advertisers help to pay bills. In our free enterprise system, nothing wrong with this. But you would think that anywhere this exists there would be a reasonable balance between suppliers/vendors knowing the full story about their products rather than being strictly fed something grown in la-la land. Not to mention the participants who through censorship don't get the full story.

I agree for sure with the guiding principles of some, their world, their rules. It however does beg the question, where would you rather be? If anyone is so intimidated to limit their constructive criticism comments strictly to the MTF because they know it is allowed, this for sure is very sad.

It has been mentioned twice in this thread that the other forum(s) are bigger. But in this case, who thinks that bigger is better? We all are privileged to tell it as it is without ever having to look over our shoulder. Comforting, I’d say. Some may pick and choose where they want to post their content that may be motivated by a desire for maximum exposure, and that’s OK. Go where you feel most comfortable. Others may choose to stay strictly at home (MTF) because they have a real sense of participating in a forum they love and respect. When you boil it all down, you don’t have much, regardless of size, unless there is respect.

Most of us know we have something special with the MTF, and we like it that way. We have John and Teledoc who are very fair and make us the best place to be because in part they have respect for us and we for them.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2017)

I took some time to go back and re-read all of the comments posted to this thread. It reminds me of a certain town that has only two ice cream stores. One store is bigger than the other one and has advertising plastered all over the walls. Because of this, the advertisers have a lot of say as to what flavors are offered. A consensus of them prefer plain vanilla ice cream. So to appease the advertisers, plain vanilla is the only flavor offered. Many of their customers have no idea that other flavors exist (never been exposed to them). But some are indeed aware of other flavors, but over time, have learned to accept just plain vanilla.

However, at the other ice cream store, they serve many flavors. You may recognize it by it's name, *M*ust *T*aste *F*antastic Ice Cream Shop. They offer mint chocolate chip, butter pecan, chocolate swirl, a culinary delight, Cherry Garcia, and many, many other flavors. One other important difference is at the *M*ust *T*aste *F*antastic Ice Cream Shop, you will find a large Suggestion Box where customers can leave comments to improve the quality of their ice cream and perhaps request new flavors. 

Though some may prefer plain vanilla ice cream, I have always been a big fan of having a choice of multiple flavors, particularly coffee ice cream. So my suggestion for you today is to dish out a big bowl of your favorite flavor of ice cream and celebrate an American tradition.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Ah BRIAN, IICCCCEEEEE CREEEEAAAAMMM!!!!

My Favorite is get this,

Moose Tracks Forever!!!!!!!:smilie_daumenpos:
MTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cchancey (Aug 27, 2015)

Brian's comments are right on for certain. We are a smaller model train forum; however, the MTF provides modelers' of all scales and those involved with multiple scales to freely express their thoughts about products, any other aspects related to model trains, and any model train forum as well. Here is a 100% true, accurate, honest, and factual story that I hope you will all appreciate. A few years back I was with a member of the other forum who received a call from a senior manager and writer at OGR. This member is well known in our hobby and resides within the "inner circle club" of the OGR forum management. The call was on his cell phone and we were close enough to each other that I could unintentionally over hear the OGR person speaking. It appears that this "inner circle club member" had posted a very negative and not nice at all post around 6-7 hours earlier about an advertiser whom he quoting him was" out to get" because of a previous interaction with this advertiser which had been satisfactorily resolved at least 2 years earlier. The OGR senior manager and writer told this "inner circle club" member that he was sorry to call and did not want to upset; however, one of their advertisers had just called him and was furious about the fact that this post was not only currently on their forum, but had been there for 6-7 hours and he wanted it removed immediately and wanted to know why the moderators had allowed the post to stay on so long and not have deleted it shortly after it was posted. The senior manager and writer told the "inner circle club" member about the advertiser's furious call to him and that he had to remove the post, but did not want to do so without talking to him first so he would not get upset. The senior manager and writer asked the "inner circle club" member if it would okay with him if he deleted the post so he could get the advertiser off his back. The "inner circle club" members told him that it would be okay to delete it. The senior manager and writer then stated that he was going to take his time deleting the post so that it would be up for a longer period of time. The "inner circle club" member thanked him for calling to check if it would upset him if the post was deleted. The post was deleted by the senior manager and writer; however, this is where I do not know exactly when it was deleted; however, it was allowed to remain posted for about 8 hours. Not one of their moderators dared to delete the post and it took a senior manager and writer to get a furious call from his advertiser to take any action, and even then, after his call to the "inner circle club" member, they conspired to allow the post to remain up for a while longer. Real arrogance and politics to say the least on behalf of the other forum. You do not see this type of arrogance and politics being played by those people who moderate this forum. (Thank heavens!)


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2017)

Carl, do you think that the inner circle members like plain vanilla ice cream? 

Laz, *M*oose *T*rack *F*orever ice cream, has a nice ring to it.


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

Hey, I like vanilla


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2017)

*"Hey, I like vanilla"*

The last time I checked the menu for the *M*ust *T*aste *F*antastic Ice Cream Shop, they offered not just one, but two flavors of vanilla ice cream. Their vanilla is made with the highest quality vanilla beans and of course, the ever popular French Vanilla. This should satisfy your taste buds.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I like vanilla, if they put hot fudge and nuts on it.  Inner circle? Do they wear black robes with hoods, chant ancient Celtic words and perform animal sacrifice?


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

I like vanilla too. But there are different labels, some better than others for vanilla, others for chocolate, and still others for my favorite... strawberry. And I can tell you why I like the different brands, what I don't like, etc. 

Here we can do that. Elsewhere maybe not. But we have the opportunity to participate where we want to do so, even both places if we want.

I prefer MTF and enjoy the way that we all interact. We are polite, helpful, tolerant, and we tell it like it is, be it positive or negative. And we don't have the pressure that comes from depending on advertisers, sponsors, etc who may or may not like what it said. That is a two-edged sword with benefits and difficulties.

We can do a lot to continue to improve MTF and make it stronger. If we concentrate on making it better, all of us will benefit. That is where I would like to see us spend our effort and time. How about a thread that asks "What can we do to improve MTF? How and When?"

Let's keep it positive and devoid of negative comparisons. We need to be above all that. We might want to begin with what we do now and it is a lot.


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## Texas Pete (Sep 28, 2011)

I fear I may be too dense to understand the purpose of preaching to the choir. If you like cheerleading I guess it's okay, but the people who are reading this are already here.

Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

DennyM said:


> I like vanilla, if they put hot fudge and nuts on it.  Inner circle? Do they wear black robes with hoods, chant ancient Celtic words and perform animal sacrifice?


Don't be disparaging the inner circle here, you might not like the results!


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2017)

*"I fear I may be too dense to understand the purpose of preaching to the choir."
*
Me thinks that there are other folks out there that may not belong to *"the choir"* but who read the MTF regularly to get take our temperature. And no, they are not doctors or nurses. 

View attachment 270970


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2017)

*"We can do a lot to continue to improve MTF and make it stronger. If we concentrate on making it better, all of us will benefit. That is where I would like to see us spend our effort and time. How about a thread that asks "What can we do to improve MTF? How and When?"*

Great idea, Bill. Since you suggested this, please start it. May I make one suggestion about this subject. Why not call it the *Suggestion Box* after the one in the front of the *M*ust *T*aste *F*antastic Ice Cream Shop.


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## CincinnatiWestern (Jun 16, 2015)

I haven't posted much here, mainly because for the past year I have had very little to do with trains (hobby on hold while I settled into a new role as president of a division of my company). I have posted a couple times on the other forum, not starting a thread but adding to one, the overall responses tend to be rough. That is not the case here, which is why this will be where I hang my hat for a while.

Often using an iPad with autofill to read and post can lead to less than ideal grammar and spelling. 

Being somewhat younger (early 40's), also leads to other issues, especially on the other forum, being told scolded by those on a pension about views on cost, is funny as heck, I have been very fortunate and can purchase anything I wish, it is isn't about being cheap it is about expectations that products will work, not have inherent defects, and be solid right out of the box, or there will be a quick fix at zero costs to me. Brian's original comments on the VL GG-1 speak to this, if I comment on quality vs costs, that is often taken as just being cheap, not so I expect products to work and when they don't I expect to be able to speak up and say so, without being spoken down to by fan-boys who will not or cannot face the fact that their brand of choice is not perfect in every way. Sorry, off the soap box now.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2017)

Good to see you back, Jason. Congratulations on the President's position. Hope you have some more time now for our hobby.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Don't be disparaging the inner circle here, you might not like the results!


Here's a chant for them.:
OHWATTAGOOSEIAM


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

CincinnatiWestern said:


> I haven't posted much here, mainly because for the past year I have had very little to do with trains (hobby on hold while I settled into a new role as president of a division of my company). I have posted a couple times on the other forum, not starting a thread but adding to one, the overall responses tend to be rough. That is not the case here, which is why this will be where I hang my hat for a while.
> 
> Often using an iPad with autofill to read and post can lead to less than ideal grammar and spelling.
> 
> Being somewhat younger (early 40's), also leads to other issues, especially on the other forum, being told scolded by those on a pension about views on cost, is funny as heck, I have been very fortunate and can purchase anything I wish, it is isn't about being cheap it is about expectations that products will work, not have inherent defects, and be solid right out of the box, or there will be a quick fix at zero costs to me. Brian's original comments on the VL GG-1 speak to this, if I comment on quality vs costs, that is often taken as just being cheap, not so I expect products to work and when they don't I expect to be able to speak up and say so, without being spoken down to by fan-boys who will not or cannot face the fact that their brand of choice is not perfect in every way. Sorry, off the soap box now.


I noticed that about train guys who are either hardcore Lionel or hardcore MTH. It's been the same with cars or sports


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2017)

*"I noticed that about train guys who are either hardcore Lionel or hardcore MTH. It's been the same with cars or sports"*

Interesting comment, Denny, and true. There is a lot that goes behind these feelings. A lot of us were brought up with Lionel as our first train set. You don't forget this, nor should you. That does not go to say that Lionel gets a permanent pass on not doing things correctly, they are accountable for all their products as they should be.

Mike Wolf did a lot for the hobby and that should be recognized. I am one who believes that Lionel should have tapped this resource when they had the opportunity to. However Mike brought same fantastic products to the O-Gauge marketplace and pushed Lionel to do a better job.

The market has changed a lot since the nineties. Some hard core enthusiasts may hold loyalties, but many buy what they like.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Brain, growing up on the South side of Chicago, I was expected to be a White Sox fan and the North side are Cubs fans. It has gotten extreme in some cases if your not with the right team. That mentality is not only trains but a lot of things. A friend of mine told me about their tires being slashed because they were in a Southern state with Northern license plates. Or a fellow in New Orleans had to defend himself because he wasn't a Saints fan. I know it's not that extreme with trains, but it falls in the same category.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

DennyM said:


> Brain, growing up on the South side of Chicago, I was expected to be a White Sox fan and the North side are Cubs fans. It has gotten extreme in some cases if your not with the right team. That mentality is not only trains but a lot of things. A friend of mine told me about their tires being slashed because they were in a Southern state with Northern license plates. Or a fellow in New Orleans had to defend himself because he wasn't a Saints fan. I know it's not that extreme with trains, but it falls in the same category.


Lots of ignorant people in the world. Yes, I watch and root for my favorite team, but I appreciate when the opposition wins.

Never ventured far enough in the south to experience slashed tires, but I can see that happening. Some are still fighting the Civil War in their limited minds.

As far as trains, I prefer Lionel because I grew up with it. I also recently invested in a CAB-2 remote, so I see Lionel in my future. That's not to say I won't purchase MTH along the way.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I guess I don't read the forums enough to notice if a thread or comment has been deleted, though it did happen to me once on another platform. In the big picture, it really didn't mean much to me, but it was interesting to see how the moderator reacted to my comments. 
Advertising doesn't bother me much as long as it doesn't interfere with the integrity of the product. If the correct balance is kept between the product and the ads, there should never be issues.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I just remembered, my profile picture was removed because they claimed they couldn't see me well enough.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

Denny, the good news is the fact that you are here among friends and your avatar looks good! All you actually need.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

One thing at least we don't have here is "tattlers". The webmaster over there had his "roaming webmaster rangers" who would notify the "webmasters" of posts that need to be deleted or receive immediate attention. 
Usually if someone added to a post with a "this won't last long", they usually didn't. I remember trying o slip one pass, checked to see who all was aboard, and after watching the site a few weeks, I was able to weed and identify most of the "webmasters rangers". Some surprised me.
As to an avatar, haven't figured out how to download one of my pics hanging in the post office yet.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

Walter, it is plain vanilla or nothing. Over time, some got to like it more than others. At one time, they called those who served ice cream as soda jerks.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Denny, the good news is the fact that you are here among friends and your avatar looks good! All you actually need.


So true Brian and my wife makes me look good.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

*Art, 8 hours and post not deleted. Congratulations.*



Chugman said:


> Pete - I did not post about the GG1 over there as I didn't think it would last long enough for anybody to read it. I have scanned the posts about the new GG1 over there and saw nothing but praise for how well it ran and etc. Made me wonder which Lionel GG1 they were using? And it was an intentional thing by Lionel, they didn't forget to put one on or had one that didn't work as we used an electrical meter to check to see if both of them worked and they did. The engine was just excellent at finding the dead spots on switches.
> 
> Art




See where you finally brought this up elsewhere and... the issue has received some discussion and still remains. It sounds as if nobody else has experienced the problem.

But there is plenty of agreement with you about the fact that two are not enough.

We will see if it lasts. Good discussion so far.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2017)

It would be foolish not to recognize that many from the outside read our forum. I am pretty sure that this thread hit a big nerve. 

They may now even offer flavors other than plain vanilla.


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

I experienced it today.
Even when I was holding in my stock a building with their name.

WOW, no mercy. 

AG.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Andre, For Sale = New Front and Name.

We are working on one like that now as you are aware.

Bill


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

Bill Webb said:


> Andre, For Sale = New Front and Name.
> 
> We are working on one like that now as you are aware.
> 
> Bill


Yes. I think I will remake the front add some columns.

AG.


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

* From another forum ....*

One last "bump". We have had to delete, edit, etc. replies that were bumping this thread. Have your conversation via email. Next time will result in locking the thread.... No conversation in for sale threads guys...it is unfair to other listings...

*And the band play's on.. Why don't they just turn the bumping thing off ? There is really no need for this. 
And here is where I will stay....*


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

I have no experience with the other forums maybe read a few posts here or there I know a lot of great guys left there to come here so my question is why do the others stay? Must be something in the kool aid


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Stoshu said:


> * From another forum ....*
> 
> One last "bump". We have had to delete, edit, etc. replies that were bumping this thread. Have your conversation via email. Next time will result in locking the thread....  No conversation in for sale threads guys...it is unfair to other listings...
> 
> ...


"Bumping" refers to the latest post in a thread that "bumps" it to the top of a forum. It's not something that can be turned off. It's done by a forum user adding a post to keep a thread at the top. Sometimes it's as simple as posting the word "bump" in a message. I've also seen "TTT" in a post, which means "to the top." This is someone's attempt to keep a particular thread at the top of a forum queue.

Apparently they don't like conversations in "For Sale" threads that have the effect of keeping a particular thread ahead of others.

Also sounds like they are heavily moderating "For Sale" threads to eliminate conversations, bumps, etc.; and will resort to locking threads if necessary.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Truthfully, I can't say that their stand on the Sale forums are way off base, long conversations in those forums do disadvantage other sellers. Sometimes the moderating style seems heavy handed, but it's not always unjustified.

Face it guys, they have their priorities and ideas of how a forum should be managed. You can't say they're unsuccessful, but not everyone sees eye to eye with the policies.

It's their ball and field, if you don't want to play by their rules, you find another field and ball.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2017)

It will be interesting to follow the road ahead for the other guys. When any business posts the big *FOR SALE* sign and a sale is not announced shortly thereafter, this breeds uncertainly about what's next. My opinion, for what it is worth, things will never be the same. I doubt that it will be business as usual.

On the other hand, I don't see any impediment for the foreseeable future for MTF. As far as I know, we are not for sale and don't have to deal with these issues.  We continue to grow, and most importantly, we *HAVE FUN*. In the final analysis, that's what it is all about.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Does some business or entity _(Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd)_ own this forum? Or is it owned and operated by an individual?

Either way, if they got tired or want to go in another direction, couldn't they just turn off the lights and close out the whole thing at anytime?

My first entry into model train forums was the Atlas O forum, and they shut it down for several reasons.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Traindiesel said:


> Does some business or entity _(Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd)_ own this forum? Or is it owned and operated by an individual?...


Jelsoft is the company that distributes the forum software vBulletin.

VerticalScope owns the forum. They're a Canadian company that owns and runs many websites.

Here we are on their website (towards the bottom):

http://www.verticalscope.com/hobbies-collectibles/site-list.html


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

highvoltage said:


> "Bumping" refers to the latest post in a thread that "bumps" it to the top of a forum..


_ Oh I understand the bumping thing, but on the other hand when you go to that thread it takes you to the last message posted. Now you have to scroll backwards and figure out what you have missed.
On the other hand you may have a question and it gets pushed down, now very few people see it and you question never gets answered.

How you see messages should be user selectable. If I want to see things in a certain order I should be able to arrange it by date time ect. Just like almost every E mail client I've ever used.

The host they had before worked well, This stuff just sucks, just look at all the problems it's caused. It's become to much of an admin headache for them. Not really worth it. 

Bottom line is PTC is right, Just have fun with it. I would like to see this forum grow, but I hope it does not get to big....

_


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Stoshu said:


> _ Oh I understand the bumping thing, but on the other hand when you go to that thread it takes you to the last message posted. Now you have to scroll backwards and figure out what you have missed.
> On the other hand you may have a question and it gets pushed down, now very few people see it and you question never gets answered.
> 
> How you see messages should be user selectable. If I want to see things in a certain order I should be able to arrange it by date time ect. Just like almost every E mail client I've ever used.
> ...


Forum software is designed to display contents in chronological order, oldest first, newest last. This forum's software has the option of "View First Unread," which takes you to the first post in a thread that you haven't seen yet.

My response about bumping was based on your comment "*Why don't they just turn the bumping thing off ?" *It's not something that gets turned on or off, it's just another post by a user.


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

*Experience can be a harsh teacher*

While I still enjoy the freedom of having more than one forum to read and respond to (a big thanks to GRJ for resetting a problem I had logging in/was gone for several MTF weeks), I would like to share a little story. I'm a musician and writer and a number of years ago, put together a little mag parody called, "Plassic Toy Trains". It had most of the article dept's., but each took an over-the-top turn that lampooned the "obsessive" nature of some toy train folk. I'm one of them. I had much fun writing it, but recognized it might not be for everyone. I posted a few items on the other forum, hoping I might get a few laughs and the odd thumbs-up. I could not believe the amount of ugly invective thrown at me for having the audacity to try. It seemed most of the mud-throwers couldn't or wouldn't wrap heads around the concept that obsession with toy trains can be rather funny. I still smart when I think of it, so this is the first time I've thought of it in a long while. I guess it begs the question, do the subscribers influence the website designers and keyholders, or is it the other way round, or something else? Perhaps I'm simply a bad writer, but that may not be the case. It was difficult to have sustained so many truly intentionally hurtful comments from those who obviously had no time to think about what they were reading or enjoy something not totally down the pike in mindless agreement with what they already expect...


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

callmeIshmael2 said:


> While I still enjoy the freedom of having more than one forum to read and respond to (a big thanks to GRJ for resetting a problem I had logging in/was gone for several MTF weeks), I would like to share a little story. I'm a musician and writer and a number of years ago, put together a little mag parody called, "Plassic Toy Trains". It had most of the article dept's., but each took an over-the-top turn that lampooned the "obsessive" nature of some toy train folk. I'm one of them. I had much fun writing it, but recognized it might not be for everyone. I posted a few items on the other forum, hoping I might get a few laughs and the odd thumbs-up. I could not believe the amount of ugly invective thrown at me for having the audacity to try. It seemed most of the mud-throwers couldn't or wouldn't wrap heads around the concept that obsession with toy trains can be rather funny. I still smart when I think of it, so this is the first time I've thought of it in a long while. I guess it begs the question, do the subscribers influence the website designers and keyholders, or is it the other way round, or something else? Perhaps I'm simply a bad writer, but that may not be the case. It was difficult to have sustained so many truly intentionally hurtful comments from those who obviously had no time to think about what they were reading or enjoy something not totally down the pike in mindless agreement with what they already expect...


At least you got a response be it negative or positive. I made a humorous statement and got deleted. It was about people in my town not knowing York is in Pennsylvania and not in New York. hwell:


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I say don't sweat the small stuff. It's only an internet forum. People will always have "keyboard muscles" and write things they wouldn't ordinarily say or do in person. Take it all with a grain of salt. It's unhealthy to worry about responses or post deletions. It just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of life.


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

callmeishmael2

Consider posting your lyrics here. I bet you get a better reaction. I think people here would enjoy a joke on themselves, I would.

Bill


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

No sweat Brian, just saying what happened.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

callmeIshmael2 said:


> ...I guess it begs the question, do the subscribers influence the website designers and keyholders, or is it the other way round, or something else? ...


I'm sure I'm posting something that you already know. To me every forum has a personality. That personality is made up of the forum members, the admins, the mods, and in some cases the owners of the forum.

In our case the owners are a large company that hosts many forums spanning a multitude of interests, so to me they don't influence this forum.

That leaves the rest of us (admins, mods, and members). I believe that over the years MTF has fostered an environment of providing helpful advice, commenting on train related activities, and the occasional off-topic post about non-train related items (politics excluded ).

I don't track membership statistics but I believe we have grown in size in recent years. Still, throughout all the growth our personality hasn't changed much. New members read the activity on the board and get a feeling for what it's like here. Then they continue the tradition by providing their own advice.

I haven't been on many forums, but so far MTF is a comfortable place for me to come and visit. _C'mon in, take your shoes off, sit a spell._


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

highvoltage said:


> MTF is a comfortable place for me to come and visit. _C'mon in, take your shoes off, sit a spell._


MTF is a comfortable place to visit. Lately I spend more time reading and enjoying the posts then I do contributing or replying to post. (I feel like my little layout wouldn't be of much interest) I feel more qualified people are here with positive attitudes to the Hobby and fellow modelers then the other one. Which seems more a pay to play, negative post on products are not welcome, yet are helpful to both buyers and manufacturers.


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

walter said:


> MTF is a comfortable place to visit. Lately I spend more time reading and enjoying the posts then I do contributing or replying to post. (I feel like my little layout wouldn't be of much interest) I feel more qualified people are here with positive attitudes to the Hobby and fellow modelers then the other one. Which seems more a pay to play, negative post on products are not welcome, yet are helpful to both buyers and manufacturers.


Layout size matters not, Walter. Bottom line, we all have a limited space in which to work and build our layouts. Everyone here has something to contribute and we can all learn from each other. With that said, let's see some shots of your layout!!


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2017)

*"To me every forum has a personality."*

So true. What makes our personality very special is we do not have a bunch of *"KNOW IT ALL'S"* who delight in tearing another member down. We have found a way of respecting each other in a most positive way. 

Proof positive is we get to enjoy many flavors of delicious ice cream.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Walter, it doesn't matter if your layout fills an entire room or just a loop on card table. If you enjoy it and want to share, no one here will put it down.

Brian, those *know-it-all* type of people are like that period. I'm sure they treat everyone with contempt. I have run into one or two like that at York and also in the Ham Radio world. As a friend once said,"they are legends in their own mind".


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