# Squirrel Creek, 1890's mountain layout, critique??



## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

first post here...
new layout, still mostly in planning stages...
1890's mountain layout, about 15'x15', around two walls and penninsula, small 30' to 40' rolling stock, steam shays, heiselers, mallets.. ore cars and log cars..

very little 'flat' areas, majority 2.5% slope, opportunity for trestles, tunnels, rustic scenery..

the benchwork is already built, not a great deal of choice to get reasonable useable layout size, finished basement, about 36" height, caster chair viewing, plus i have a 5 year old, so the height suits him, and of course has to include a 'railfan' continous run, and switching for me, lol..
at this point the outside loop is down loosely, no foam installed yet for height variation, all #6 turnouts on main, #4 on spurs / sidings..
currently all is atlas code 100 ns, have lots of it, right now sectional is installed, will be replaced with flex on final glue down..
usual dcc stuuf, power district wiring underneath, will use caboose ind ground throws, no electrical throw, furthest reach will be appx 28", and only two of those, 42" aisles, on lower left loop, either removeable top terrain, or cut out underneath for track maintinence, and possibles oops derailments..

i used scarm to model this, actual file is included, delete txt from end, scarm extension file do not upload

comments? suggestions?? 

thanks


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## NumberOne (Sep 19, 2012)

Nice. I would break up a lot of the straight track runs, to make it more interesting. You've got what looks like some unnecessary "S" curves, although they are not as much of a problem with shorter locos and rolling stock. You've also got a lot of the track very close to the edges, which will limit your scenery choices (not a big deal, just a comment).

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

-Mark


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

tentative minimum distance from tie edge to layout edge [right now] is 1.5 inches, and there will be fascia added on later, but wont be any significant thickness... 
i realize there are the four major s curves with the #6 turnouts for crossovers, hopefully that effect is minimized with mostly 26' ore cars, and 32' log cars, 
there is one s curve on the upper right that is a #4 going up to the mine area, lower left center..

i could move some of the tracks in to give more scenic area between track and table edge, and then reduce 'mountain' height to avoid excessively steep angles going up...

thanks..


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## NumberOne (Sep 19, 2012)

I think a logging railroad will look a lot better using Code 83 (or smaller) rail. Of course, if Code 100 is all you have now, it's a lot easier for me to spend your money... Narrow gauge?

Do you have enough spurs for all your industries?

-Mark


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

code 83?? yes, or better yet, code 70 would fit the era and the type of railroad much better, and i do have maybe 10 turnouts of each of these, but not all i would need, but no sectional or flex track in either.. right now about 75% of the track needed is loosely laid with code 100 sectional [atlas], with no gradients, just to run some trains, and check the 'look and feel', the only spurs not set up are the two that run to the centers of the loops on both ends of the dogbones.. i move things around, to see if i like a little different run, and if it seems better, i update the track plan to match.. i think its probably backwards from the way most people do it, but it works for me...
i am still not happy with where i have the crossover area at the top inside, looks 'too straight' to me.. 
also want to try putting in some structure stand ins [ foam block buildings] in the area around the turn around wye at the top right side where i would like a 'shanty town', and just further south of that for minimal loco servicing, one of the 'druthers' on this layout is that there is lots of scrap wood from logging and sawmill, so the locos use wood, not coal or oil..

i do have 'lots' of atlas code 100, most of the sectional now used will be replaced with flex on the final 'glue down', and will be sold off later, and still have probably 40 #4 turnouts left over ... 
when i did my first layout maybe 9 years ago, i knew it was a 'learning' layout, and would be torn down..and i slowly accumulated more track, forgot what i already had, accumulated more... 
right now i probably have three times of what i will need for the layout, with the exception of #6 turnouts, sigh... and mostly all is atlas code 100 n/s ..
the first layout was maybe half brass style, sraights will be reused for a display wall cabinet, and the rest has very little value, either near 'give away', or the dumpster depending on new / used / and condition..

i did price code 70 complete a couple of times, but turned out to be around a thousand dollars, so not really a viable option.. i dont have that kind of spare cash to buy all new code 70, even though i would probably recover it by the sale of twice as much code 100 later on .. i did consider turnout 'kits', but decided that that i would rather spend time 'layout building' rather than 'turnout building'..with appx 22 turnouts,


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

layout is getting firmed up on the planning stages, have been trying sections laid flat and loose on the bench work, verifying curves / operations / general appearance..
and old sintered wheel athearn loco goes around well, so 0-6-0 steam / shays should have no problems..
will be appx 160 feet of mainline, and 100 feet of spurs / sidings / wyes , 
mainline will have a 4 inch variation, 2.2 percent max, 
spurs will have 9 inch variation , 2.4 percent max ...
slowly coming along, next week should be able to start glueing the high density foam down, foam cutter is built and tested great....


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

seven months later. track is all laid , appx 200 ft of main, 85 on spurs, siding...
just finished preliminary terrain yesterday, only about 15 ft of track at zero level, maybe 45 ft that is flat or less than 1/2 percent grade...
next step is final plaster coat, then paint / ballast track...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

wvgca said:


> seven months later. track is all laid , appx 200 ft of main, 85 on spurs, siding...
> just finished preliminary terrain yesterday, only about 15 ft of track at zero level, maybe 45 ft that is flat or less than 1/2 percent grade...
> next step is final plaster coat, then paint / ballast track...


Looks good. 

:ttiwwop:

Thanks, I needed a place to put that.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

*photos ? sure*

lost my fuji camera transfer software a while back, bought a card reader today...
here ya go ,


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Sure is coming along nicely.

A mountain railroad with locos and cars of the type you have would use
tighter curves and more 'rickity' track than found on big mainline roads.

Some of the short line road videos that we have seen on the Forum
have rails so wavy and uneven it's a wonder the loco could stay on the track.

Don


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

most is 20 inch radius, i would have preferred lighter track, code 70 but i already had lots of code 100 ..in the photos above the track was taped over when i did a color 'sealer' spray bomb coat, i used ordinary drywall plaster, 8 bucks for a gallon from walmart, and didnt want it softening up too much when i get around to doing ground cover this winter..
next steps are airbrushing the track and ties, a mix of red oxide primer and a tan / yellow , then a wash of a whitish grey on the ties, and playground sand ballast...hopefully with no actual roadbed underneath the track, the final result will minimize the appearance of the 'larger than mainline' code 100 track that i did use...on the lowest level track height i used 1/8 inch closed cell foam, and all higher elevation track was dap alex glued directly to blue or green high density foam insulation, no 'beadboard' at all ..with a minimum of 1/8 to a maximum of around eight to nine inches of foam insulation on top of the plywood flat base, plus flexible alex caulking, its very quiet in operation, no rumbling at all, the click of metal wheelsets going over the joints is quite pleasant...i also intend to use diluted alex caulking for ballast and scenery / ground cover glue to reduce possible unwanted noise .. i don't miss the rumble that i had on my first layout using rigid white glue at all, 
the layout is coming along quite nicely, planning [with scarm] to having track laid and runnable only took maybe three or four months, and about the same to do the terrain shaping, large areas were window screen with plastered on paper towel, smaller areas were done with a kind of a heavier wax paper that held 'crumpling' quite nicely, foam trimmings support undeneath, and a couple of coats of plaster all over...
it's been great fun, and a lot of 'learning', as this is my second layout... the first one . seven years ago, was definitely a learning experience, too much track, no real operations goal, and should have been called the 'twisted and convoluted', lol


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

found some time to airbrush the track tonight, took about an hour and a half to get it all done.. before and after photos... end result shows redder with flash than on layout, but i got the 'rusty' look that i wanted ... maybe in a few days will do a check for shiny spots, then a whitish grey wash on the tie portions, non treated weathered ties appearance, hopefully

















i used krylon red oxide primer, and krylon saddle tan, one spray bomb of each, punctured the cans on top to let the pressure out, and poured both into a 710ml gatorade bottle, just about filled it, but only used about half ... will save the rest for other rusting, airbrush or plain brush


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

spray bomb of each, punctured the cans on top to let the pressure out.

HUH?

I never intentionally punctured a spray paint can before.
Won't all the paint just spray out of the puncture?

what did you puncture it with?

Maybe I am missing something, why did you do it?
Couldn't you just buy the color you want in a can? :dunno:

Mountains looking good. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

just a very small hole with a prick [centre] punch, takes a couple of minutes to let the pressure out....the colors i wanted didnt come in ordinary cans, and definitely not for three bucks each....and they are already thinned for airbrush spraying, the primer did settle out fairly quickly though, and needed to be shook up between pots.. it gave me the color, and flat matt texture that i wanted, for six bucks, with half left over for later...excellent value .. tonight i will start with a grey / white wash on the ties... the mountain in the background is heavy crumpled wax paper, hot glued on, with an ordinary plaster coat, then yellow ochre / burnt umber patches, and a standard black wash, nothing fancy .. i went very low budget with the scenery, lol


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

got the ties done last two evenings, first a brushed on wash of battleship grey and white to emphasize the woodgrain on the ties, then an airbrush wash of raw sienna, mostly in the middle to tone it down and blend, and finally a little heavier 'zig zag' was of burnt umber to give more variation to the ties, all done 'straight down' to leave the rails relatively untouched or changed from the 'rusty' wash...then i realized that i had a bunch of those little D shaped pieces on the ends of the turnouts and sectional pieces, will cut them out tomorrow, and replace with 'new ties', greenish new untreated wood color, and use old atlas flex track fiber ties, thinner than the new plastic ties, and easy to slide under...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

got a bit of free time today, and cut out probably a hundred of those little D's on the turnouts, and pieces of sectional that I had used, four hundred cuts, but with track rail cutters it went fairly quickly, less than an hour...and replaced with wood ties, had some scale 16 foot ones, cut them in half...and as they were thinner, only four scale inches thick, they slid under easily with no lifted portions or 'bumps' .. a wee bit of Aileens tacky glue, and they are drying now... again less than an hour for close to 100 replacement ties..I decided to leave them natural unstained, and a bit crooked, so they will noticeably look like freshly replaced ties ...
next step will be ballast I guess??


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

saturday i got 90% of the ballasting done, two hours, four cups or so of sand...sunday i ballasted all of the turnouts, again around two hours, and today i spent two hours again doing touch ups, quite a few as i glued the track directly down to the notched foam risers, got the look that i wanted, old time quickly laid track right on the ground, no subroadbed , only ran ballast maybe half way up the tie depth... next week the hard job, cleaning off the top of the track, white glue and thinned dap alex, as well as the latex wash come off easy, but not the krylon that i used for the rails themselves, 70% alcohol doesn't touch it, and id rather not use that much lacquer thinner in the basement, especially with the house doors closed because of the snow, lol .. so i guess its probably three or four hours with the scotchbrite pads....


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

three days , four hours of cleaning time, and three extra fine scotchbrite pads later, all the track is clean... later this evening take some time to vacumn everything, probably some loose ballast, clean out the turnouts, and then run trains again, and put a coat of no-ox on the rail tops, should be good for probably a year then ... that stuff is simply amazing...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Did you run out of film for the camera? :dunno:


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

wiped the rails off with a mix of 1/4 lacquer thinner, and 3/4 70% isopropyl alcohol, then wiped a wee bit of no-ox on a foam pad underneath a home made track cleaner car...
about eight passes over all the major portions, rest was hand applied...used maybe a half inch long bead out of the no-ox tube in total ... great stuff , now to leave it alone for couple of days, and then hand buff....should be good for at least a year, unless i spill something on it..


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Looking great, :smilie_daumenpos: The water scene coming off the mountain looks good but it looks like it is missing something. It sort of dead ends at the mountains base? Do you have anything else planned for it? Maybe it would have been better to have put that in a different spot off to the side of the mountain?

Question about the tunnel mountains your putting in.
How will you ever get into them if you need to? Everything looks to be built permanently in place. Or can you get into it somehow?
(I reread the thread I guess you come up from the bottom for future problems?)

NO-OX....I got to check that out some more. You mean you applied it to the pad and let it dry, then ran the cleaner car around? You applied it to the rail too then hand cleaned?
Is that stuff self adhering, just put it on the pad and let it dry? Or do you have to use something to make it stick to the pad? I never used that.
I guess you ran some trains around before you started weathering it all up?

I guess where my red arrows are you have to do touch ups?
Where my yellow circle is, is that the flash making it white looking?

Critique?? In your title so I figured I would add my thoughts here. 
All and all it is looking great.:thumbsup:


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm not sure how that water part will wind up in the end...the two thoughts I had was 1] silicone 'waterfall' streams coming down, maybe on the sides of the facing rock to simulate ground springs?, or 2] cut out the very bottom part of the rock, and have something like an underground river coming out of there?? ....in the meantime I will probably just smoothen the stream bed, and a bit of light blue / green paint...I also intend to add 'post supports' to the bridges, and after more ground cover is in place, add cross bracing to the bridge trestles..

the mountain above the stream currently has a full tunnel liner, built with rigid foam, so that there is less chance of getting a oco hung up inside...and the tunnel is around four feet long..
I have had one instance of poor contract, and a dead loco, but a curved bamboo three foot skewer solved that.. if it comes to be a problem, the mountain will have to be 'decapitated', and changed to a removable top piece, the other tunnels on the far left [mining area] have access from underneath for cleaning, possible derailments, etc..the whole center part of the plywood base inside the two loops was cut out, and then lifted to form the track base seven inches higher for the mining track plateau..
the white part on the track?? not sure, haven't looked yet today. ..might be flash, but it looks more like I got a little messy with the whitish / grey tie wash, and I get the feeling it may not be the only one...
around the ground throws I will probably just do a little paint touch up, and keep ballast and ground cover away from the moving parts.. ..
Yes, I ran trains for awhile before weathering, and again when I used the track cleaning car with a foam pad to apply the no-ox last night.. no noticeable issues except one ground throw that required a bit of 'unsticking', I didn't mask any area except for the strip on the ground throw movement, the points weren't masked as I had run small 'wire wrap' wire jumpers from the base of the points back, so that the points themselves no longer required actual electrical contact at the tips, I also added small , maybe 0.015??, shim at the wide part of the frog, where the wheels would 'drop' a little and clunk, I found quite a few people had made this modification to Atlas turnouts while searching on the net..
As far as the no-ox, my father introduced me to this stuff probably thirty yeas ago, to ensure excellent electrical contact, as he was in the Canadian Air Force, and did electrical service on bombers and such during the Second War, and I used it on my old layout, which was mostly brass track, and it virtually eliminated the need to clean the brass corrosion off regularly, as it no longer occurred..I have a friend that has a metal salvage / scrap yard, and an electromagnet pickup pad on a trackhoe, before he would have to clean and sand the high current contact pads around twice a month, after a wipe of no-ox they would last six months or more, and very little 'blackening' around the contacts from arcing ... the stuff is absolutely wonderful, and does exactly what it says it will...after a couple of days it seems to bond right into the base metal, and lasts a long time, with no 'grease' to attract dust.. not sure how, but it simply works..
thanks! any other suggestions?? I'm pretty open, as this is only my second layout.. 
i


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## Chops124 (Dec 23, 2015)

Remarkable, we see a lot of ideas, but this one has come to fruition. I am chipping away at a small, 3 x5 1880’s layout, and am making mental notes o your excellent rock outcroppings.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Chops124 said:


> Remarkable, we see a lot of ideas, but this one has come to fruition. I am chipping away at a small, 3 x5 1880’s layout, and am making mental notes o your excellent rock outcroppings.


most of the rocks were made with those soft plastic molds, dish soap for release agent, and dap sheetrock mud for the main part.. nothing fancy.... and some cheap paint from walmart for the stain and emphasis .


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