# 1689e



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The Subject.











The motor.








...











Time to play with the Vanerbilt and the 1664 engine.
I am doing a fabrication to make this work. The engine does go with this motor but it has a different rear mount. The Lionel Jr isn't wide enough so I opted to make one that fits.

I already removed the rivet. I cut some metal for a rough fit in.










After the screw holes were made I used 4-40 allen heads and nuts. 










The next trick was to cut the slit for the frame to fit. used two used whells of the same size to give me a wide cut.




















Then with a toothpick and paint I lined up the final hole to drill.










Then prime and paint.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Fit Up*

Bolt On












Fits Here.......................................................................and Here.










And it will look like this.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Clever retrofit!

As you know, that's one of my beloved Lionel Jr motors which were used on the 1689's, as far as I know.

I've never fiddled with a 1689 up close, so it's rather intriguing for me to see how that motor would have attached to the shell. I realize you're using the 1664 version of the Jr motor, which had that diamond-shaped bracket on the back. Per your disection work, I guess you've found that that same diamond bracket was NOT used to mount the Jr motor to the 1689.

This begs the question, though ... what did the original 1689 Jr mount look like???

Take a look at the next-to-last photo in the post-link below ... that's the bracket that exists inside my 258 loco ... it's riveted to the shell. The Jr motor mounts to the center step on the bracket.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=48572&postcount=7

Is there any evidence on your 1689 shell that it would have had a bracket like this at some point???

Or would it have had a larger bracket riveted to the motor itself, with the bracket then screwed to the shell?

What do things look like on the other end? Do the two "nipples" on the front of the motor sideplates engage into something ???

Ohh ... another thought ... my 1688 ...

Look at the pics in this post:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=53256&postcount=1

I'll bet that THAT's what the bracket for your 1689 originally looked like. The width of the 1688 shell is probably the same (or just about) as the width of the 1689.

And look at the inside/front of the 1688 ... there's a bracket that slides into the shell to mount the front truck. And the rear of the bracket has two slots to accept the "nipples" on the front of the motor sideplates.

Fun stuff ... I enjoy learning about how all of this old stuff fit together long ago.

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

This from a recent (completed) ebay 1689 listing:










Quasi 1688-style brack in back. Slidey bracket in front (though different from the 1688 front bracket).


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have no idea about the original bracket.

The shell has the four holes so something like the 1688 may work.

The front tabs fit into the cross brace like the 259e steamchest.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, T-Man.

Sidebar ...

I "discovered" a Lionel design flaw with my beloved 1681's. As you know, the motor sideplates are offset from the a loco centerline a bit, to account for the fact that the drive wheels on one side have geared backs, and the wheels on the other side do not. This offset is compensated for in how the motor (and its mount bracket) attaches to the shell ... the rear bracket mounts the motor shifted a bit to one side, while keeping the wheels properly centered. Except ...

On the 1681, Lionel forgot to offset the shell's front mount-flange (that holds the motor sideplate front tabs). The motor sideplates are positioned on loco centerline on the front, which shifts the wheels slightly off center a bit. (The back of the motor IS aligned properly.) As such, any 1681 motor is installed skewed on an slight angle. One can see this with clearances between the drive wheels and the drive rods (which slide into the steam chest).

I wonder if anyone has noticed that before ???

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

:dunno: That's the first I have ever heard of it. I don't think collector's pay much attention to the engine. You never know.

The overnight bag trick did the magic.








...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Alright ... I've got a big time case of the jealosies going on here, T. That's gonna be a slick looking loco.

I keep hunting for a cheap one on ebay (say $25 or so), but they usually fetch quite a bit more than that. Pretty locos.

Keep us posted!

Ohh ... Do you have a color in mind?

<... redredredredredredred ...> 

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Take a closeup looking at the just front (nose) before you paint it, T.
Please.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am tempted to shine it up as is. Bergundy maybe.

The oven cleaner phase is done, I'm trying the rubbing compound. 

You should get one TJ. It may cure the cat lady fever, or atart another one . 

Ed, I need another front view the last one was out of focus.




















Patience Ed, I'll get more. Updated.:thumbsup:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

big ed said:


> Take a closeup looking at the just front (nose) before you paint it, T.
> Please.


Since the Bergundy 1689e is done I am digging up the older one that was set aside. I compared fronts and noticed the original has no side cutouts for the red marker lights????











I also attached some spare wheels to the front. The swage tool made divets to hold the nail on. Not large but just enough to tap on with a small hammer.










After the Bergundy I am frustrated for a color. I was thinking gray or navy blue in gloss.
What do you like??


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Navy blue is my choice T-Man.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Navy blue is my choice T-Man.


I have to agree :laugh:


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## AG216 (Sep 28, 2011)

Navy blue!
Andre.


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## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

Aqua and white two tone like a on a 57 chevy would be cool too.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I say Alien Green.:thumbsup:

I forgot why I requested pictures of the front.:dunno:


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

"...no side cutouts for the red marker lights?" 
Given the sorta clunky (scientific term) red side marker lights on the other one, I feel this is an improvement. Too bad they weren't smaller, round and in a streamlined fairing more in keeping with the overall art deco styling of the locomotive itself. JMO
I do like your paint job on the repainted loco. Nice work there.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Lionel used those same translucent red markers on several streamliner locos ... 1668, 1688, 238, etc.

I didn't know you had a second 1689 in the quiver there, T ... glad she's gonna see the light of day!

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Paint Navy*

Painted today the old 1689e. The one needing motor parts.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

rrbill said:


> "...no side cutouts for the red marker lights?"
> Given the sorta clunky (scientific term) red side marker lights on the other one, I feel this is an improvement. Too bad they weren't smaller, round and in a streamlined fairing more in keeping with the overall art deco styling of the locomotive itself. JMO
> I do like your paint job on the repainted loco. Nice work there.


If I were to redo one of these, I'd find some better markers for it, I agree the stock ones look pretty lame.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T-Man,

Refresh my memory ... what motor parts do you need?

I like the blue shell. That'll look classy paired side-by-side with the red one.

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I removed the shoe plate and I need rivets to hold the rods down. I plan on shortening a 1688 pair. Plus a rear wheel and drawbar. I may redo the e unit too. It was a mess. 

It will need a second coat. Plus I want another tender. I have one came with the 249 I may repaint that one sice I got the matching tender a 265.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

SO far I am unhappy with the paint. The finish is terrible. I am going to let it cure a week and sand out the rough spots and try again. I shaked that can till my hands were going to fall off. I tried two coats with light sanding and one side improved the other got worst. The color is great but if it doesn't go on right I can't see using it again. The Bergundy gave me some trouble too but not as bad.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

It could be the heat and humidity. I've tried spraying in the past in 90+ deg temps with high humidity, with very unsatisfactory results.

Just a thought ...

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The gloss finish makes it more of a challenge. A satin or flat are so much easier.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I love the blue.:thumbsup:

T.... do you heat your paint before spraying?
Either hold under running hot water or sit it in some hot water for a while?

You didn't say what kind of paint you used? 
Did you?


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

I like the blue color, too.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

T-Man said:


> The gloss finish makes it more of a challenge. A satin or flat are so much easier.


Did yuu prime before the finish coat? I find that gloss needs a prime coat of flat to look good.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It's Rustoleum. I use a little heat in the winter but now I would think it wouldn't help. Maybe. I did prime but may have reacted it was Walmart brand.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have had different brands bubble on me, maybe that's what happened? I now try to stick to the same brand for the primer and finish coats.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I had a Home Depot paint-department guy tell me a while back that one should not mix-and-match Rustoleum and Krlyon primers and paints ... different solvent bases, according to him.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think he's right based on my experience.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I like the theory but it should have improved after each coat. It got worst.
I was worried about the primer. I used Krylon primer with the Bergundy.

I will sand and try again. I did try a tedt strip and the paint wasn't flat.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That sure looks like the primer didn't like the paint!


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I had a similar issue on a tender I sprayed. I used rustoleum paint and primer, ended up wet sanding with 800 (what I had on hand) and adding another coat. The last coat came out flawless. Now, I just need to get correct lettering and some clear with proper gloss.

Looked almost identical to my tender's problem area.









I'd try a good wet sanding, and try one more coat and see before stripping again.

Carl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> It's Rustoleum. I use a little heat in the winter but now I would think it wouldn't help. Maybe. I did prime but may have reacted it was Walmart brand.



Did the Rustoleum can have one of those new spray tops? The kind you can't turn upside down to clean the spray nozzle?
I will never buy anymore that have that spray tip.:thumbsdown:

I heat with hot water and shake real well anytime of the year.
The heat makes shaking easier as it "thins" the paint some. Especially if the can has been sitting for a while. 

Maybe it is that the primer is not compatible with the paint.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You got that right. Right on the spray button.

I did bleed the nozzle before application every time.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Crummy Paint*

I sanded twice and repainted. This is the latest. Ok but not up to par with what you expect.





















The defects are there.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I agree not on par with other projects I've seen you do.

Purely out of curiosity, what did the primer coat look like when wet? If it had the defects before color, then I'd be suspect of either the primer being bad, or not agreeing with the surface prep. When I sanded my tender I had to break nearly thru the primer layers to get the surface to even resemble being smooth. I'm not happy with having 3 coats on my tender, hides some rivet details, so I'll likely be stripping again. May have to buy some spot putty to fill a few imperfections.

Carl


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The paint contained Xylene wit the prier being Toluene based.

They just don't mix. Even after 5 coats. The finish just never looked right.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Now that makes perfect sense then.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> The paint contained Xylene wit the prier being Toluene based.
> 
> They just don't mix. Even after 5 coats. The finish just never looked right



Rustoleum paint contains Toluene, Acetone and Xylene. All mixed together.
Some Rustoleum may contain other chemicals depending on the paint.
Krylon paint contains toluene, xylene and ketones all mixed together.
I don't know what the Walmart paint contains?
I have used Rustoleum over a primer of Krylon and that did not happen.
But now I stick with the same brand of paint.

Did you use Rustoleum primer then a Walmart top coat?
Or a Walmart primer and Rustoleum top coat?

Maybe it was a bad can of paint? 
Like TJ said the temperature and humidity will affect your paint job.
Did you paint it outside?

I won't buy the Rustoleum with that %!#*^! spray top anymore.:thumbsdown:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Wallmart was primer. I have used Kryon primer under Wallmart without any problems. It is just 5 coats of paint the primer may have startef it but it was sealed after the first two coats, I will let it rest amd restrip in the future, The engine needs attention so there is no rush. Then I can make some molds around the cab.


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## Badwolf & Arizona RR (Jun 17, 2011)

I know I'm arriving late to this dance, but has anyone ever tried using Dupli-Color automotive paint and primer? We've used it with plastic and metal auto trim pieces and it usually turns out really great.

FWIW


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## sawgunner (Mar 3, 2012)

dupli color on a model?

yup done that one


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

*Time to give up.*

I got the bag out and added Bix paint remover.


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## sawgunner (Mar 3, 2012)

want me to see if i can paint it?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You should call yourself speed gunner. The fastest response I have seen.

I will take car of it but I will finish the strip first.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks like you nuked the train instead of the spammers.

Looks melted, you might get big bucks on e bay for a nuked engine like that.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Ouch, T-man, that blows.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Well on the way to recovery. I removed it from the first bag saturated in paint goo. After s wipe down not much is left.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Start over with a clean slate ... and the same brand primer and paint this time!

A few steps backwards, but you'll be happy with the restrip in the long run.

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Having never usd that paint before, I just wasn't happy wit the finish.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hopefully, the second time is a charm.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

One reason is that I need molds of the shell. I spied a broken one so Iwant o be ready.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> Having never usd that paint before, I just wasn't happy wit the finish.



And if you ask me the spray tip sucks on their cans. I don't like them. As you mentioned with my 2065 rebuild the paint goes on too thick no matter how you shoot the paint.
I went to HD to pick up sample paint jars and checked their Rustoleum cans as I was waiting for the guy to mix them, it seems that they all have that spray tip.
Next time I deliver to Rustoleum I am going to voice my concerns over the spray tip again. At least maybe they could sell the old tips for those who want them.
I am going to tell them I won't buy any spray paint with those tips again.



A brute for you T man.:thumbsup:
Can you Frankenstein up one of these?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

How about a challenger chassis and lengthen a 1668.





















Getting there. The worst is done.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My 1689e is running fine. The wheels are dirty. SO dirty that I am geting sparks from a non whistle tender. Now that is dirty. The connection to common ( ground) varies between the tender and the engine.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Did you ever repaint the engine yet?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I have it stripped but I want to mold the cab. It is the same as a Commodore. I just need more plaster. so it is on hold till then. I got the Walmart Blue for it. I am working on strip lighting but parts supplies are slow. Busy busy busy. The 1668 is on the table. I am doing minor add on epoxy. The 12 hr syuff takes time. I just finished my restoration of my latest cars too!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> I have it stripped but I want to mold the cab. It is the same as a Commodore. I just need more plaster. so it is on hold till then. I got the Walmart Blue for it. I am working on strip lighting but parts supplies are slow. Busy busy busy. The 1668 is on the table. I am doing minor add on epoxy. The 12 hr syuff takes time. I just finished my restoration of my latest cars too!



OK, I was just wondering.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

A lot of those shells are around and broken. I just wanted to take advantage of the stripped shell. The motor isn't ready short of a few parts. Plaster is fun.

I also want to do a caboose roof and try it on the work caboose. Plenty to do.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I got the Halogen light out and set it on sun!  Time for videos.

Again this is still uploading. I jumped the gun on this one. John, no pun intended.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

That runs good too.:thumbsup: Or should I say well?

I like the color.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

T, you must have read my mind. I was looking at your 252 video, and saw the 1689 sitting there on the elevated track in the background. I thought, "Gee ... it'd be fun to see that one run, too."

Nice going, Karnac!!!

TJ


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

T-Man, Enjoyed the video and your layout; slow the train down some so we can enjoy it more. We kinda know it'll go fast.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It was a quick video. From shooting to You tube was minutes. The engine is still in the break in phase. Once I had to slow it down . It was stalling at slower speeds. What can you expect after being idle for years?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice job on the repaint, looks great.


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## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

WOW!!!! Look at it GO!!!!
Man-a-live, it blew that other train right off it's track!!!!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Holy $$$$ . That thing ran fast. Did it knock the other train over? The restoration came out perfect.


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