# Need an educated opinion



## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

I don't know about anybody else but I am tired of paying venders $6-8 for 3' nichrome wire when rebuilding smoke units. I have found a supplier of 40 gage, nichrome, the same wire size in the smoke units, that will sell a 25 foot roll for $5.09. If it works that would be the deal of the year. It is a 80% nickel, 20% Chromium make up. It is described as "a resistance wire heating alloy with a high melting point and resistance to high temperature oxidation". I wish I knew the make up of the nichrome we use in our smoke units. This wire just described is said to be used in toasters, cookers, and other such heating appliances
Anybody have any knowledge whether this wire would work?

Kenny


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

We can start with an uneducated opinion. The operating regime of the wire is different in toasters than in smoke units. A Gilbert smoke unit generates between 3 and 5 watts of heat. It is wrapped around a damp wick so the operating temperature is probably around 150deg to make smoke. A toaster makes around 600W and the wire operates in the infrared temperature range. Therefore we would expect the metallurgy and alloy of toaster wire to be different than smoke unit wire. Even still, if the ohms/foot is about the same then the 80/20 toaster wire should work fine. Ohms/foot is the key.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

The ohms/foot was my uneducated guess also. I knew the operating heat range of a toaster and other such appliances would be much hotter. My thinking was since the nichrome in a smoke unit would not be anywhere near toaster temperature then this wire I mentioned should last longer? Being electrically challenged, I would think that wire I mentioned should last longer on the face of it but not knowing the ins and outs of the fine points of electricity, is there a serious down side? I guess for no more than it cost I should get a roll and do some testing on the ohms side of it. 

Kenny


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

For $25 it is worth trying. The risk is that the NiChrome wire resistance is strongly non linear with temperature. We do not have any specs on the wire so the only way is to test a length of it. 
For reference each time I need to have a Legacy engine smoke unit replaced it costs $100.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I just buy the pre-wound kits from Jeff Kane or Doug Peck. It's easier on my fragile nerves,lol...


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Also, toasters operate at 120 VAC, we're about a 1/10 of that.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Flyernut, I could buy the pre-wound kits from Jeff Kane or Doug Peck but the old hot rod tinkerer, "do it myself", in me wants to see what's out there. I have bought from Doug Peck in the past. Easy drop in for sure. As an update, I found a company that does indeed sell Nichrome wire to train rebuilders. 25' for $5.09? Yeah I'm all about that. I was referred to the person who knows about this. He is supposed to get back to me today with the correct answer regarding which type of wire I need. There is more than one type of Nichrome wire as I suspected. Not only that, I watched a You Tube video where a guy using Tiki torch material wrapped with a specific length of Nichrome wire did his own with a resulting 28.5 ohm reading. I saw nothing difficult about it. For $5.08 and free shipping, yeah I'll try it. I got nothin' but time. 

Kenny


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

AmFlyer said:


> For $25 it is worth trying. The risk is that the NiChrome wire resistance is strongly non linear with temperature. We do not have any specs on the wire so the only way is to test a length of it.
> For reference each time I need to have a Legacy engine smoke unit replaced it costs $100.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd just buy it and test it, dirt cheap test.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Kenny, as I said above, it is a cheap test, even cheaper than I thought. Somehow I converted 25' into $25.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

GRJ and Tom, as soon as I get the answer from the company person I contacted I will order a roll. It will for sure be a cheap test. 

Kenny


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Kenny, here is another uneducated guess. I say try it for 5 bucks. I have gone to using the Lionel 27 ohm resistors. The wire in them is much thicker than the original Nichrome wire and it works. It may take a bit more throttle to heat the thicker wire. The resistors take a bit more throttle. They are just easier to work with than the thinner wire. I do think the thicker
wire will last longer.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Yeah that thin 40 gauge wire is a bit harder to work with, especially with older eyes. I didn't realize the Lionel wire was a bit thicker. 

Kenny


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## AF-Doc' (Dec 21, 2013)

" a 25 foot roll for $5.09. If it works that would be the deal of the year. " 
As I rebuild all of my smoke units the first time through an engine it would be great if it works. Although 25' could enough to start a smoke unit repair shop.
Doug


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Doug Oconnor said:


> " a 25 foot roll for $5.09. If it works that would be the deal of the year. "
> As I rebuild all of my smoke units the first time through an engine it would be great if it works. Although 25' could enough to start a smoke unit repair shop.
> Doug


Well that was kind of my the reason I went looking for an alternative Nichrome wire supply. I was tired of these venders charging $7-8 for 3' of wire. Ridiculous. They got it some where so why can't I? I have learned there are different Nichrome wire alloy make ups. If I can get 25' for what venders charge for 3' then I'm good for a life time supply using the Tiki torch wick material. I have two sizes of wire coming. 40 ga. and 38 ga. I decided on the 38 as an option because of seeing all the Lionel resistor wires that looked heavier and in fact mopac said they were. I have checked out the pre wound ones from Portlines as flyernut suggested as well. When I get it all here, I will have plenty of varieties and methods to choose from. Yes pre wound would be a drop in as flyrnut suggested and he has been doing them for along time. Make my own, use the Lionel resistors, or get the drop in ones. That's my choices. I watched a You Tube video on the hand winding method and it looks fairly simple. I got some questions regarding the Lionel resistors touching the chamber metal sides as mopac has mentioned. I've noticed different methods to avoid this. What's the best? The obvious easier way would be the way flyernut suggested. I've got plenty of time to experiment. Bottom line. I want SMOKE but not at full throttle speed! I even liked Tom's rewiring method. So far, from looking back at mopacs Lionel resistor video, that looks like a leading candidate even though that was at full speed. As he stated, it has worked for Lionel for years. So there you have it. My thoughts on creating reliable smoke.

Kenny


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

mopac said:


> Kenny, here is another uneducated guess. I say try it for 5 bucks. I have gone to using the Lionel 27 ohm resistors. The wire in them is much thicker than the original Nichrome wire and it works. It may take a bit more throttle to heat the thicker wire. The resistors take a bit more throttle. They are just easier to work with than the thinner wire. I do think the thicker
> wire will last longer.


How do you insulate the resistor leads from touching the metal chamber? I have read where some people use a sleeve over the resistor then running some wick material under the resistor. From picture I have seen, it looks as though that resistor barely fits into the smoke chamber. Yes I have drilled out the holes to 1/8" or .125. 

Kenny


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

In my Lionel resister smoke units, I use the Gilbert insulating box that comes standard with the original smoke units.. Just bend the wire so you have plenty of room inside the box.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Like flyernut, I use the insulating box. Got them from Jeff at the Train Tender. The resistors do barely fit.
I use the tiki torch wicks also. They are braided so I unravel some. Makes lots of wicks.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I wound 2 wicks using the original Nichrome wire. Really did not go well. I would buy the ready made ones
if I was not using a resistor. LOL, the first one lasted 1 to 2 seconds and went up in a blaze of light, The coils
can not touch. The second one still works, but not that great.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Kind of what I thought. So far I have had good insulating boxes but you know there will be a time when I will need a new one so I will contact Train Tender and get some. Thanks flyernut and mopac. 

Kenny


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

I am in no way a smoke guy but I love this thread, it's so educational, regarding Nichrome, Ohm's Law, general bashing, etc.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

mopac said:


> I wound 2 wicks using the original Nichrome wire. Really did not go well. I would buy the ready made ones
> if I was not using a resistor. LOL, the first one lasted 1 to 2 seconds and went up in a blaze of light, The coils
> can not touch. The second one still works, but not that great.


So I understand, you prefer the Lionel resister to the ready made ones?


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## AF-Doc' (Dec 21, 2013)

I did some experiment's with a 310 S.I.T unit because I liked the smoke when the engine was at idle. With a 35 to 50 ohm recommended for the element I wound for the gusto at 37 ohms. As has been said don't let the coils touch or the light and smoke will come out way to fast. At 37 ohm I had good smoke but I do think that the life of that element will be shorter than at say 43 ohms which is where I wind all of the other I do. Still don't have a good method for holding the wicking, wire and the nail or toothpick or needle that I wind on. Maybe the tool that is used to make trout fly's. Open to any and all suggestions.
Doug


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The wetter the wick, the longer the element will last. I have no experience with SIT units so I cannot comment on their volume. For the standard SIB unit, on first fill after a rebuild put in 20 drops. Wait an hour, add another 15. Put in 10 drops before running an engine if it sat overnight. I recommend Challenger smoke fluid. It has the original Gilbert scent but is less viscous than Supersmoke so it will draw through the chamber holes and along the wick easier.
It has been a long time since I rebuilt a Gilbert smoke unit. I have a supply of pre made wicks. I took 3 or 4 turns off before installing.


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## AF-Doc' (Dec 21, 2013)

Really good information on the drops and fluid. I just did a rough volume measurement for the SIT unit at 1.53 cui and the SIB at .488 cui. I never knew the drop amount and it was always a question of mine since the time of the red squeeze capsules. Thanks Tom.


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