# Does this motor look fried to you?



## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Back in April, after 50 + years I begin renovating my American flyer train set. I was very naive and learning as I go. I purchased an American flyer 332 and try to run it with my AC transformer not realizing it had a DC motor.I don't remember whether I saw smoke or not but probably did and turn the power off immediately. I was informed I would need to put a bridge rectifier between the transformer in the track. I purchase a 6 amp bridge rectifier. The local ran but did not have much power. I was informed that the 6 amp rectifier was not powerful enough so I purchased a Dallee 1400 e unit. ouch! The train ran better but not great. BTW this was all before I joined this forum. Upon reading Claikens April 25th 2015 thread on his 332 motor issue I realize what I might have done. I recently disassembled the motor and notice the commutator add dimples on the surface. I resurfaced the commutator but the dimples were still there. I did not want to grind the commutator down too far. It also looks like some of the insulation has been melted. Should I grind the commutator down some more and see if that makes a difference or is this motor fried?


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Sorry push the send button instead of attached.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The photos aren't really clear, but it looks like the insulation is burned on the windings.

What's it smell like?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The armature face could be resurfaced more but I have to agree with Michael, the windings look burned/melted. So I would guess motor is fried. flyernut could tell you better. You can rewind armature yourself. I have never done one but I know it can be done. I did rewind a field coil, and it works fine. If it were me, I would try to find another armature. Yours does not look good to me. Not sure why AF made DC only motors but they did. Most steamer motors will run on AC or DC. I do not have a DC only so I do not know the difference in motors. I bet many 332s were burned up.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

I think these pictures are better.


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## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

fried but you wont know for 100% sure untill u test each one of them chingaderies for short


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The amount of time it takes to damage a DC armature with AC voltage applied is in the seconds, not minutes. It is hard to tell by looking if the armature is bad because the enamel fails in the center before the outer windings fail. There were 2 different DC armatures used in the 332 depending on build date. The early one would read at least 2.7 ohms between any two commutator segments. The later version would read at least 2.1 ohms between segments. Both should be infinite from commutator to the shaft.
The commutator as pictured is not the cause of the poor operation although it could be cleaned up more.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The tricky part is knowing if there are shorted turns. While a shorted turn may not change the resistance much, it will certainly greatly affect motor operation! If that enamel coating is really burnt, I'd be looking for a new armature.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The armatures have either 90 or 100 turns on each pole depending on which version you have. As GRJ says having some of those turns shorted (it does not take very many) causes poor motor performance. It also will run much hotter.
There is about a 10% variation in DC resistance in the factory armatures so finding less than 10 shorted turns with an ohm meter is almost impossible. OTOH if there was 15VAC on that armature for 10 seconds it will read close to zero ohms.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ouch! 2.1 ohms with 15 volts! That's over 100 watts of power, that would certainly cook things in a heartbeat!


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Did, what is a chingadery and how do you test it. I have an OHM meter where do I place the leads?


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Sid sorry,


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I do not rely on testing between segments any more. Reason being my 282 armature
tested good. It wasn't good. All 3 segments tested the same between segments. 1.3 as I remember. My
282 ran at half speed as it should have and motor was getting extremely hot. Very hot.
I tried another armature and my 282 now runs like a hot rod and I can run the snot out of it and it will not even get warm. I did not suspect the armature because it tested good. I bought a running chassis and started changing parts one at a time. The armature change did it.

After the repair I came across 2 brand new armatures from a train shop that had gone out of business. I bought them at a good price.
My 282 runs so good I just left the old used armature in it. So I have 2 brand new armatures. I think many of my AF steamers use this armature. Armatures seldom go bad. Well, unless you use the wrong power. Sorry hjstr6.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

hjstr6 said:


> Did, what is a chingadery and how do you test it. I have an OHM meter where do I place the leads?


They are kinda like Whatchamacallits, or Thingamajigs.
In this case actually Doohickeys.

Dan


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

If you just want to see if the armature is the problem any AC steamer armature from a 1948 to 1952 engine can be substituted for test running. Be sure to use DC to power the engine! For a permanent repair an armature from a DC motor should be used but it is not absolutely required.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

The doohikeys in this case are the 3 segments you see on face of the armature. The way
I think you check them is you hold one probe on one of the segments and then the other probe to one of the other segments. Then try another segment. They should read pretty close to the same. If one is higher, it is shorted. But like I said the test did not work for me.
Best is like I did, change one part at a time and test run. It will not hurt to try the test. Check all 3 segments against the other 2 segments. If one segment shows bad then I bet it is bad.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I would do like Tom said. Try another armature. But use DC power.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

From my HO days I have a few DC transformers. I have run my AC/DC steamers on
DC power. They ran fine. I really saw no difference in performance.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Most early Gilbert armatures in the universal motors had 75 turns of 27 gauge wire, about 1.4 ohms. The motors were series wired with the 1.5 ohm field giving a total motor resistance of 2.9 ohms. Since the DC motors had a permanent magnet rather than a wire wound field Gilbert made the early DC motor armatures with 100 turns of 29 gauge wire. That is a minimum of 2.7 ohms. For better operation it was later changed to 90 turns of 28 gauge wire for a resistance around 2.2 ohms.
The 1.4 ohm universal motor armature works well in the DC motor, just don't leave the voltage cranked up to max for long term running. Probably more than you wanted to know.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Mopac and AmFlyer, I tested the commutator segments. Got a reading of 2.2 ohms on all three so I guess I have a later version motor. Also, I have a Dallee 1400 E Unit in the tender, so would it matter if I use AC power with a AC armature? Unfortunately I do not have an AC armature lying around so I would have to extract from one of my existing locos.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't think the armature is the difference. Tom (AmFlyer) will have to answer your question. I say use DC power to test your engine with armature change. Do you have any DC power? The Dallee reverse unit will change AC to DC if and I say if you have the correct Dallee. They won't all. Any HO DC transformer will work. Even a 12 volt DC converter will work. You just will have no speed control. I have a couple of those to run lights on my HO layout. You might be able to pick up a HO DC transformer used for 10.00 or less at a train shop if you don't have one. Offer them 5.00 if they have one. A cheap Bachmann transformer will work. They are all over the place.
Came in all the Bachmann train sets.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Mopac, the Dallee 1400 instruction indicate that it will provide sequential direction control for wound series type motors and permanent magnet dc motors.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Replacing a wire wound field in a series universal motor with a permanent magnet field changes the motor to DC only. The armature is irrelevant. 
I am familiar with 3 Dallee electronic reverse units, I am not sure of their model numbers. They are a 2A, a 4A and a 10A rated units. All three of these input AC from the track and output DC so they work with old open frame universal motors, the old Gilbert DC motors and modern DC Can motors. The 2A version is only for Can motors, I assume you have the 4A unit.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

AmFlyer, this unit is rated for upto 12 amps


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

It is also possible the 70 year old AlNiCo field has partially demagnetized. These do weaken over time but usually not enough to materially degrade performance. If the engine is otherwise in good shape it sounds like you need to find a replacement motor.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I am not familiar with a 12A version. Kind of overkill since almost all power supplies are 10A or less unless two are paralleled. 20A at 18V makes a great welder. Just meter the output to verify it is DC.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

You are right. It is overkill. But before I joined this forum, this is what was recommended by my only source of info. Live and learn.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I just hit the Dallee website. That is the former 10A unit you have. It is fine, the output is DC.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

In Gilbert land only the dual motor diesels need that model. All the steam engines work with the 4A unit. However there is no such thing as too much power!


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

LOL. I think a new armature is the way to go, but I will swap out the armature first. Thanks for all you advise. Will let you know how I make out.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

hjstr6 said:


> LOL. I think a new armature is the way to go, but I will swap out the armature first. Thanks for all you advise. Will let you know how I make out.


Doug at PortLines lists the later DC armature, XA10476 after OCT. 1949 which can be used in the earlier date stamped 332's providing you use a spacer. Might be worth a phone call, Doug is very helpful and $49 is reasonable IMHO.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Cramden, thank you. I have already looked at his site and after I test I will order that armature.


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## hjstr6 (Jul 12, 2019)

Michael e, Sid, mopac, am flyer, gunrunner John, panther, and Cramden. Thank you all for your input.I ended up purchasing a new armature from port line hobbies. That did the trick. My 332 now runs great.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Great, enjoy it!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Glad that did the trick. You don't mind spending the money if it fixes the problem.
Always glad to hear of a northern running great. Enjoy.


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## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Congrats on a successful repair, glad you got it running, have fun with it.


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