# Locomotive Reliability - Atlas, Broadway Limited, Kato?



## EBrown (5 mo ago)

I'm shopping around for loco's, looking for a Diesel, ideally EMD SD70, EMD GP40, or a GE Dash 8. I'm also looking for either CN, CSX, or Norfolk Southern (as those are the names I see on loco's in my area).

I've found around 30 that meet my criteria, different road names, liveries (some are special edition), etc. I'd prefer one that's DCC-ready, rather than DCC-equipped, as it's my first locomotive and I don't have my DCC controller built yet. (I'm planning to use DCC++EX and some Arduino components I have hanging around.) That said, Broadway Limited just released a NS loco with their Paragon4 sound engine in it, and I've read good things about the Broadway sound systems.

My question is predominantly around the general reliability of the three brands in the title: Atlas, Broadway Limited, and Kato. Those three are the majority of the trains I'm seeing. (Though Bachmann has shown up a few times as well.)

How do folks that have these various loco brands in N-scale feel about them? Is it worth being picky, are they all equally (or, mostly) good and reliable? I want one that runs well and I can use to do "freight switching", none of my curves are tighter than a 14" radius (I think it's actually 14.5"), and those are only in my yard, so I think 6-axle should work fine. Are there known "gotcha's" or "quirks" with any of these brands I should be aware of?

Appreciate any insight! Still (very) new to model trains, and I'm trying to do things "as right as I can" from the start.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Of the three you mention, I have been seeing more issues with BLI than the others….


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

EBrown said:


> I'm shopping around for loco's, looking for a Diesel, ideally EMD SD70, EMD GP40, or a GE Dash 8. I'm also looking for either CN, CSX, or Norfolk Southern (as those are the names I see on loco's in my area).
> 
> I've found around 30 that meet my criteria, different road names, liveries (some are special edition), etc. I'd prefer one that's DCC-ready, rather than DCC-equipped, as it's my first locomotive and I don't have my DCC controller built yet. (I'm planning to use DCC++EX and some Arduino components I have hanging around.) That said, Broadway Limited just released a NS loco with their Paragon4 sound engine in it, and I've read good things about the Broadway sound systems.
> 
> ...


EBrown;

Having spent decades in N-scale, and having owned a lot of locomotive brands during that time, I highly recommend Kato. I own a lot of Kato locomotives and I've never seen one that didn't run superbly. By the way a lot of "Alas" diesels are actually made by Kato. Look on the bottom. if it says "Made in Japan" its a Kato. If it says "Made in China" its not a Kato.
Broadway limited is a relatively new brand and I have no experience with it.
I have plenty of experience with Bachmann, all of it bad! 😕 I simply don't buy Bachmann locomotives anymore.

Traction Fan


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

# 1 Is Kato, although I've never actually owned one I would put Intermountain at 1.a., I know, crazy....
After that its Atlas or Life Like in no particular order, if I like the road name I'll buy it.
Had a few Bachmann loco's, ok runners when they ran but prone to just up and dying on you.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I've had great experience with a DCC ready Kato SD70ace. I did the same as you. I ran it DC for a while until people talked me into DCC. I installed a drop-in replacement decoder from Digitrax. Took about 15 minutes, but it is not sound.

I also recommend Atlas. I really like the LokSound decoders they use.

I have a BLI steamer with Paragon 4 sound. It is nice, but I had to send it in for warranty work. It was DOA. Took about 5-6 weeks, but it works great now. I'm not a huge Paragon sound fan. It's too much. I know, that sounds strange, and maybe it's because it's a steamer, but there are all these random sounds that are really loud, and distract from the main sounds.


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## Spruslayer (Dec 13, 2020)

Like the others i have great results from Kato,BLI can be problematic but most of the time it is self inflictid,dirty wheels/contacts or bad track work.Cant speak for Atlas as i dont own any and as for Bachmann,of the 2 i have both have run flawlessly right out of the box on DC.One is a 060 steamer i put a Loksound Nano in and it now sounds a runs and sounds great,the other is a F7 that is in line for a Loksound Nano as soon as the banking gods bestow their blessing on me.So my choice for locos is Kato followed equally by Bachmann and BLI.I do plan on some Altas aquistions in the future


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

When I ran DC N scale I had a lot of Bachmann and never had any issues with them. I also at some atlas and again never had any issues. I never had any of the other two brands so I can't say about them.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

I run DC only and have used various Kato locos for 27 years. The first ones I bought around 1995 still work. Atlas made in China are mostly making screeching noises. After lubing them. I haven't tried BLI, and I don't think I need to buy anything else. Kato, enough for me.


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## sid (Mar 26, 2018)

i have a Kato SD70ace and its been problems from day one. i have three atlas and they always run great slow speed is fantastic on them , i will not buy any more bachmann locos , sent one back 2 times and always same problem so im done with them. my intermountain is a sound loco its ok love the sound bit it too is very picky about rails being extra clean.
most of my kato s are very good runners exceot that Kato SD70ace that bugger has had a lot of problems messed up gears ect also very picky with clean rails. id say my atlas locos run the best with the least amount of problems.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Pretty much anything made in the last 5-10 years is pretty good, especially as compared to the N scale offerings from back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

I'd say the rankings are pretty close to what people here have said. Kato seems to be king of the hill, followed closely by Atlas. Then you have Bachmann and Broadway Limited. Bachmann has come a long way since earning its previous reputation as making toys that fail. BLI is relatively young, and their business model seems to be "produce as cheaply as possible, and have a huge warranty repair facility in the U.S. because QC in China sucks." But once they are sorted out (if they need sorted out), BLI offers a nice product.

I have never seen an Intermountain, Fox Valley, Scale trains, or Micro Trains locomotive, but I hear they are all nice.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I’m primarily HO, my answers in that scale would be different.

But for *N* I would say my Kato RS3 and PA/PB always ran better than any Atlas I have. Atlas run ok, but Kato was better. At least in terms of diesel. 
And I agree with @GTW son that Intermountain (I don’t know if they make what you are currently looking to get) have ran just as well as Kato, maybe better.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

So far, the only manufacturers I have found making N-Scale Diesels are Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, Broadway Limited Imports (BLI), Kato, Micro-Trains (MTL), and Rapido.

Seems like Kato is a solid first-pick, with Atlas being a soft second, and Bachmann and BLI both being beyond those two.

Kato makes an NS EMD SD-70M I like the look of, #176-7605. Might put it towards the top of my list now.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Don’t forget Intermountain….

Intermountain N Scale Locomotives


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

The only issue I have had with Kato is their couplers can be finicky. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get a car coupled. But once coupled, I have never had my Kato locomotive lose it's cars.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

What @Old_Hobo said. 
They have dash 9s in CN & NS.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Most N-scale loco's made in the past 15 years (aside from most train set locos) are actually pretty good.

My picks, ranking in order from 1 to 10..................
1. Kato.
2. Atlas, Life-Like/Walthers, Intermountain, Micro-Trains (MTL), and Rapido? (probably, but no experience with this one), Fox Valley? (same, no experience).
3. Athearn.
4. Bachmann. Model Power.
5. Con-Cor.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12. Broadway Limited Imports (BLI). These locomotives are so technologically advanced, they hate themselves. 

And those are my picks, ranking in order from 1 through 10. 
Your trackage may vary.


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## Spruslayer (Dec 13, 2020)

This is kinda derailing the op's post but as brands go most of the previous listed brands are about in the same price bracket for what your getting,weather it be DC,DCC or DCC with sound
Other than being brass,what makes this brand so much more expensive?
Here's a 6 pack of SD70ACE for $7,500 which make it $1250 per unit
I would not,or i should say could not pay that kind of money for a n scale loco








Overland Models UP SD70ACE Heritage Series 6-Unit Collector's Set OMI-BJ-1869-1 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Overland Models UP SD70ACE Heritage Series 6-Unit Collector's Set OMI-BJ-1869-1 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com




I think in larger scales such as "o" scale $1250 for a new loco might be normal but for a n scale that to me seems a little out of line


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Brass locomotives have been typically more expensive than plastic versions….they are individually hand-built, to the exact specifications and details of the real locomotive it represents….brass was highly sought after, and pricey, because of this, but not as much anymore, as plastic technology is making inroads….

Older locomotives tended to be less so…. many roadnames are painted onto models that may or may not have existed in real life, but the cost of re-produced exact specific locomotives was/is limited to the high cost of injection plastic molds….

At least that happened in the “old days”…..companies are now making road name specific locomotives (Rapido and Athearn come to mind), with the actual details and features that are on the real versions, and their prices show it…..


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

Well, that was a great response you got! I might as well add my 2 cents worth...
My number one go to brand is kato, hands down. I own the afore mentioned NS SD-70ACE, and it runs flawlessly. I have a total of 5 kato locomotives. In addition to the SD-70ACE, I have 2 ES44AC'S, an SD90/43MAC, and a 35 year old GP38-2. The only one with Any issues is the 35 year old GP, but it still runs. The couplers are a bit tricky, but they can be easily replaced with MTL couplers in a few minutes. I've had a couple Bachmanns, they've been OK, but stay away from the older ones. I had one atlas (made by kato) that also was a flawless runner. I've never owned a Broadway, but I've seen a lot of reviews on YouTube and they seem to be rather finicky runners compared to, well, kato. 
Nuff said. Oh, and by the way, welcome to the forum!


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## FedeBeltra (6 mo ago)

Hi I would definitely recommend Kato locomotives ; their mechanics is well designed, properly weighted and crawl at realistic speed. Good pullers as well. I have been operating a few of them in AC mode , not DCC with excellent performance. BLI are ok but prone to stall often for no apparent reasons. Intermountain fine as well but again I found a few of them prone to erratical start sometimes it seems they shut down for a while with no apparent reason. Quality / price ratio of Kato is top of n scale range in my opinion.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

FedeBeltra said:


> Hi I would definitely recommend Kato locomotives ; their mechanics is well designed, properly weighted and crawl at realistic speed. Good pullers as well. I have been operating a few of them in AC mode , not DCC with excellent performance. BLI are ok but prone to stall often for no apparent reasons. Intermountain fine as well but again I found a few of them prone to erratical start sometimes it seems they shut down for a while with no apparent reason. Quality / price ratio of Kato is top of n scale range in my opinion.


I think you mean DC mode, not "AC mode" AC is Alternating Current. It would fry the motor & electronics of the locomotive. 

Traction Fan


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## 5kidsdad (Nov 28, 2021)

As far as I'm concerned, Kato and Atlas are the best. Bachmann is ok. After that I wouldn't recommend anything else. Only had to remotor one Atlas GP-40. 8 Atlas locos and 2 Kato on my active roster. 2 Bachmann on standby status.


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

5kidsdad said:


> As far as I'm concerned, Kato and Atlas are the best. Bachmann is ok. After that I wouldn't recommend anything else. Only had to remotor one Atlas GP-40. 8 Atlas locos and 2 Kato on my active roster. 2 Bachmann on standby status.


The only atlas loco I had was made by kato, so I'm curious how the newer ones compare to the kato ones. I'm guessing it's very close?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Don’t forget Rapido….or Intermountain….


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## 5kidsdad (Nov 28, 2021)

Oomowmow said:


> The only atlas loco I had was made by kato, so I'm curious how the newer ones compare to the kato ones. I'm guessing it's very close?


They're very close. Detail is better with Kato. But in reliability, they're almost the same. Atlas is more forgiving of dirty track than Kato is. I run DC and my Kato's will detect the smallest flaw of dirt or poor connection to power. For me, the Atlas run quieter than the Kato. Even though all locos receive the same service as needed. The one I had to remotor was purchased used in nonworking status. My first thought was to switch frames. But the light tube for a high hood doesn't exactly match the low hood. So I got a OE motor from Atlas. My switcher crawls at yard speeds well and can tug 15 cars of various lengths before slipping.


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

@Old_Hobo are Rapido loco's available in N scale?
I thought they were HO only.


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

5kidsdad said:


> They're very close. Detail is better with Kato. But in reliability, they're almost the same. Atlas is more forgiving of dirty track than Kato is. I run DC and my Kato's will detect the smallest flaw of dirt or poor connection to power. For me, the Atlas run quieter than the Kato. Even though all locos receive the same service as needed. The one I had to remotor was purchased used in nonworking status. My first thought was to switch frames. But the light tube for a high hood doesn't exactly match the low hood. So I got a OE motor from Atlas. My switcher crawls at yard speeds well and can tug 15 cars of various lengths before slipping.


Cool, that's good to know, I'm looking at an atlas I might buy, thanks!


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

GTW son said:


> @Old_Hobo are Rapido loco's available in N scale?
> I thought they were HO only.


They are available in N scale…..go to their website and click on the pull-down for N. Scale….


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## GTW son (12 mo ago)

Y'know, I thought about going to they're website after I sent that message.... 
Not to many pics of things and nothing in stock it seems.
Thank you.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

Old_Hobo said:


> Don’t forget Rapido….or Intermountain….
> View attachment 588283
> 
> View attachment 588282
> View attachment 588284


Those are beautiful. I especially like the New Haven.


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## scott.friedman480 (Jan 11, 2022)

Okay my personal input is: love: Kato, Intermountain, Atlas. Have one Scale Trains-pricey but really nice. I do have several BLI, like them, and have for me "reasonable" reliability but not my main locomotive choice. I model in N scale too so that may have an effect on the reliability/quality.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

to get better reliability, you might have to change scales .. in my opinion genuine lionel has better reliability, and better detail .. how ever the price is quite a bit higher, and may be a deterrent to you


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

Rapido makes a couple engines I like the look of, are they a good brand the likes of Kato / Atlas? (Sounds like those are the top-two in N right now.)



wvgca said:


> to get better reliability, you might have to change scales .. in my opinion genuine lionel has better reliability, and better detail .. how ever the price is quite a bit higher, and may be a deterrent to you


Unfortunately for what I want to do, N is the largest scale I can work with. I would have preferred HO because of the amount of stuff out there for it, but it's just too big.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

I think the re;iability of N is pretty good. Even the Life-Like E8s I have used since the 1990s are still running for me. Most of the Atlas and Kato I have are still running. A couple that I ran and ran and ran for hours have worn so they screech. But most are good. *I bought one Amtrak loco this year, the first since about 2007. Mainly I have been selling off trains.


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## sstucker311 (6 mo ago)

Wow! So many great responses! I have been using DCC for the past 4-5 years, and in my opinion there is nothing better than a good sound loco. I own Bachman, Atlas, Kato, BLI and Scale Trains. I would say Scale Trains (scaletrains.com) Rivet Counter has the BEST detail, and I think ESU Loksound decoders are the best you can get, in my opinion. Scale Trains are a little more expensive, although I think everything has gone up over the past year or so. I like my Atlas sound locos also, the detail is about average but they also have ESU Loksound. I do have an Atlas with a different non-sound decoder that has given me a lot of problems. I have one Bachman switcher that isn't sound, it runs pretty decent but not great, also a little noisy. Kato units, as many have mentioned are one of the best you can get as far as the mechanisms, and with ESU sound they are great runners. I do have several BLI locos (8), as many have commented they can have problems. They worked well out of the box, but early on I did have some issues with them. After making sure my track was really clean and power was constant they have run great for me. Also note that the newer units (Paragon 4) have keep alives, so they will run better with track issues. I like the detail on the BLIs, not quite as good as Scale Trains, but better than Kato or Atlas (again this is my opinion). 

Over all....there are many brands that have great quality and I also really enjoy great sound decoders. Find something you like in the brands mentioned and I think you will have good luck.


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## FedeBeltra (6 mo ago)

You are correct indeed, typo actually is DC not AC!! Thank you


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## rwbailey61 (5 mo ago)

N Scale - I have been involved in for over 40 years...i have over 3000 cars and engines in that scale...Best Cars are from microTrains - already have a kaydee coupler - Best Engines - Kato and those that work...very little service work - Best Controller - any that have momentum and enough amperage to run your layout=but that is one train per controller and stuck at one location - - - NOW comes DCC...

Too expensive and not proven at first - Yeah NMRA setting up standards for the hobby and industry to follow - Now enters Arduino (DCC++EX) and how inexpensive and proven it is (Base Station for under $50) which I have completed - I am now researching DCC decoders for the engines that will fit in the tiny area per engine...

Best Idea for your rolling stock and engines - CONVERT to kaydee immediately upon purchase/acquisition - Don't wait!

Thanks for reading...

Ray Bailey.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

If you are going to convert your couplers to MTL, do it immediately as said by Ray Bailey, while you are young enough to manage it.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Well I find this interesting, so many professing one brand is better or worse than another then admit that they have never owned one or the other or both! Those opinions go right into my ignore that person's opinion file. There is an outstanding unbiased hands on authoritative review of virtually every N scale north American prototype locomotive ever made in plastic or brass. Which he has actually purchased from his own pocket and run it on his own test tracks for extended periods of time. He has taken each apart to see exactly how they were built and to actually check to see how difficult they will be to convert to DCC, photographs them apart, and tests how well they run under DC. He has rated each locomotive for each of these parameters.
He goes under the nom de plume of "the Spooks", and his encyclopedia of N scale information can be found by clicking on www.spookshow.net
Note that you can't go just by brand name, each has built at least a few stinkers through the years. i,e, Atlas teamed with Riverosi when they were still in Italy to produce some pure Junk, prior to that Atlas teamed up with Kato to produce a locomotive that was so badly out of scale to be laughable. Atlas and Bachman tout many of their locomotives as "DCC ready" That actually require unsoldering and soldering wires and insulating motors from frames removing and replacing boards, figuring out how to squeeze everything in before the whole thing will ever run again. Trying to add a sound board can complicate thing s even further. There are drop in DCC boards made for many of the Kato locomotives that are plug and play, but the price of the board will have you wishing you had bought a loco that was factory fitted. I have quite a few BLI locomotives with sound that are excellent models in appearance and running, the sound is impressive, some say too loud, but you can tweak the CV for each individual soundsound to the level you appreciate. In fact I have bought several GLI E-series LOCO justy for the chassis and sound board and swapped Life Like E -A and B unit shells onto the BLI chassis (easy) to get the liveries I run with sound for less than the cost of 1 Kato compatible drop in decoder without sound! In my experience with Kato locos is that it's difficult to get their couplers to play nice with MTL couplers on my cars, usually have to lift the car off the track and drop the couplers together to successfully couple and uncouple or I replace their couplers with MTLs.
PS: I'm 76 age has little to do with it.


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

scenicsRme said:


> Well I find this interesting, so many professing one brand is better or worse than another then admit that they have never owned one or the other or both! Those opinions go right into my ignore that person's opinion file. There is an outstanding unbiased hands on authoritative review of virtually every N scale north American prototype locomotive ever made in plastic or brass. Which he has actually purchased from his own pocket and run it on his own test tracks for extended periods of time. He has taken each apart to see exactly how they were built and to actually check to see how difficult they will be to convert to DCC, photographs them apart, and tests how well they run under DC. He has rated each locomotive for each of these parameters.
> He goes under the nom de plume of "the Spooks", and his encyclopedia of N scale information can be found by clicking on www.spookshow.net
> Note that you can't go just by brand name, each has built at least a few stinkers through the years. i,e, Atlas teamed with Riverosi when they were still in Italy to produce some pure Junk, prior to that Atlas teamed up with Kato to produce a locomotive that was so badly out of scale to be laughable. Atlas and Bachman tout many of their locomotives as "DCC ready" That actually require unsoldering and soldering wires and insulating motors from frames removing and replacing boards, figuring out how to squeeze everything in before the whole thing will ever run again. Trying to add a sound board can complicate thing s even further. There are drop in DCC boards made for many of the Kato locomotives that are plug and play, but the price of the board will have you wishing you had bought a loco that was factory fitted. I have quite a few BLI locomotives with sound that are excellent models in appearance and running, the sound is impressive, some say too loud, but you can tweak the CV for each individual soundsound to the level you appreciate. In fact I have bought several GLI E-series LOCO justy for the chassis and sound board and swapped Life Like E -A and B unit shells onto the BLI chassis (easy) to get the liveries I run with sound for less than the cost of 1 Kato compatible drop in decoder without sound! In my experience with Kato locos is that it's difficult to get their couplers to play nice with MTL couplers on my cars, usually have to lift the car off the track and drop the couplers together to successfully couple and uncouple or I replace their couplers with MTLs.
> PS: I'm 76 age has little to do with it.


Good point about spookshow! I actually use it as a reference all the time, especially before buying a particular loco. It's a great site.
On the kato coupler issue, I have a small hack that might help. After backing the engine to the point where the couplers are together, I gently push the kato into the other coupler (I use a small letter opener I keep on hand, but a small screwdriver would work just as well) this hooks them without lifting either the loco or the car.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Oomowmow said:


> Good point about spookshow! I actually use it as a reference all the time, especially before buying a particular loco. It's a great site.
> On the kato coupler issue, I have a small hack that might help. After backing the engine to the point where the couplers are together, I gently push the kato into the other coupler (I use a small letter opener I keep on hand, but a small screwdriver would work just as well) this hooks them without lifting either the loco or the car.


What do you do to un-hook them?


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

Old_Hobo said:


> What do you do to un-hook them?


That's actually a good question. I've got an uncoupling tool coming that you stick between the couplers. We'll see how it works... till then I usually just lift the loco straight up, since I'm usually changing up the entire consist (loco included) when I do.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Ah, the old 0-5-0 switcher….your hand…. 😁


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

Old_Hobo said:


> Ah, the old 0-5-0 switcher….your hand…. 😁


Yep 🖐


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Old_Hobo said:


> Ah, the old 0-5-0 switcher….your hand…. 😁


LOL!!!! Therein lies the rub... Will Shakespear Model RRer???


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## SF Gal (11 mo ago)

The nature of the beast/scale...a bit more challenging modeling things when you get above 100 to 1.
I've always had coupler issues, still do in HO scale sometimes but tolerances are a little more forgiving.
All the N scale Kato DC engines I bought in the 20th century still work in 2022! Atlas, Bachmann...not so much.
I am in the process of cleaning, refurbishing, and relubing all of my 14 N scale locomotives.....








I believe I have over 45 locomotives in various scale in my train lounge...I need to sell these in the near future.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

My Mini Trix ‘F‘ units are still running fine….got them for Christmas in 1968….


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

scenicsRme said:


> Well I find this interesting, so many professing one brand is better or worse than another then admit that they have never owned one or the other or both! Those opinions go right into my ignore that person's opinion file. There is an outstanding unbiased hands on authoritative review of virtually every N scale north American prototype locomotive ever made in plastic or brass. Which he has actually purchased from his own pocket and run it on his own test tracks for extended periods of time. He has taken each apart to see exactly how they were built and to actually check to see how difficult they will be to convert to DCC, photographs them apart, and tests how well they run under DC. He has rated each locomotive for each of these parameters.
> He goes under the nom de plume of "the Spooks", and his encyclopedia of N scale information can be found by clicking on www.spookshow.net
> Note that you can't go just by brand name, each has built at least a few stinkers through the years. i,e, Atlas teamed with Riverosi when they were still in Italy to produce some pure Junk, prior to that Atlas teamed up with Kato to produce a locomotive that was so badly out of scale to be laughable. Atlas and Bachman tout many of their locomotives as "DCC ready" That actually require unsoldering and soldering wires and insulating motors from frames removing and replacing boards, figuring out how to squeeze everything in before the whole thing will ever run again. Trying to add a sound board can complicate thing s even further. There are drop in DCC boards made for many of the Kato locomotives that are plug and play, but the price of the board will have you wishing you had bought a loco that was factory fitted. I have quite a few BLI locomotives with sound that are excellent models in appearance and running, the sound is impressive, some say too loud, but you can tweak the CV for each individual soundsound to the level you appreciate. In fact I have bought several GLI E-series LOCO justy for the chassis and sound board and swapped Life Like E -A and B unit shells onto the BLI chassis (easy) to get the liveries I run with sound for less than the cost of 1 Kato compatible drop in decoder without sound! In my experience with Kato locos is that it's difficult to get their couplers to play nice with MTL couplers on my cars, usually have to lift the car off the track and drop the couplers together to successfully couple and uncouple or I replace their couplers with MTLs.
> PS: I'm 76 age has little to do with it.


I'm surprised you're not into O-gauge. You'd fit in good with a lot of those folks. 

Or I dunno, maybe you already are?


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## USCStephen (4 mo ago)

I can't resist! When I made the move into N Scale, I too sought recommendations. Then as now, "Kato" was recommended. I purchased several and they run well. But I have purchased other brands too. Atlas, Athearn, Broadway Limited, Scale Trains and probably a few others. It seems to me that modern offerings are all pretty amazing but I went the DCC route. I had one locomotive run poorly but I don't recall what it was. The failure rate is so low, it would hardly be fair make sweeping statements about any brand based on one bad locomotive. It REALLY depends on what you are looking for. The Scale Trains "rivet counter" line offers details I find unmatched but woe to the modeler who might mishandle them. It is FAR easier to knock great details off a crazily detailed model than it is to repair or reattach such a piece. BLI is really about the "bells and whistles." BLI seems to distinguish itself with state of the art Sound and DCC functionality. BLI decoders use all sorts of unique CV values that can create problems if you try to set up a BLI locomotive "in consist" with something else. Make no mistake, I love my BLI stuff but I love them because I affirmatively wanted those features. I am certain I would not even consider a DC-only BLI locomotive. Atlas and Anthearn makes good stuff. They run well. I am not as impressed with the DCC sound from either but you wouldn't care about that. The colors on the Athearn locomotives are more to my liking than on the Atlas but I suspect Atlas suffers by my eye because it is more life-like (and more muted) than Athearn colors. You might like that. Intermountain? HA. If you see one you like and it is "available now" buy it! I have a few on order but I am waiting and waiting and waiting. I expect it will be worth the wait but Intermountain is not known for reliable shipping schedules. Bachmann? Hmmm. Bachmann seems to make locomotives and every kind of rolling stock in every scale. In O and G, Bachmann stuff is entirely "toy like." Still, I have one little Bachmann DC Christmas train ... no lights, no nothing but it runs without issue. My bottomline is buy what you like but understand that there are trade-offs. If I was buying two or three DC locomotives with an eye towards running the heck out of them, I would go with Kato. They are as detailed as they can be without moving into the "whoops I broke something" category. Operationally they often seem to glide beautifully and smoothly over the tracks. Finally, when you go to DCC you will likely have a fair number of drop-in options. With several other brands you will be able to find decoders that fit bit that are formally intended for Katos.


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

I am thinking nobody makes locos any more that don't take a decoder, true? That would be stuff one would want to avoid.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Unless, of course, you have no intention of going to DCC….


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

Old_Hobo said:


> Unless, of course, you have no intention of going to DCC….


I am leaving that option open. Many of the locos I bought will take a decoder


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

The added dimension of sound makes DCC really worth doing, so I am looking forward to building a layout and then using DCC and sound. Step by step, and I hope to live long enough to do it. Now I am reorganizing my N Scale to support this goal. I have been changing Kato cars to LED lighting and buying a couple of new locos. Thhe 80s and 90s Kato F units' shells can be swapped onto DCC-ready F unit mechanisms, for example, and I can run the CN stuff on DCC. Long term goal.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Yes, most locomotives made these days can accept a DCC decoder. But not all can also accept a speaker without some modifications. So while it is true that you can convert most locomotives to DCC, you can't always just drop in sound decoder WITH a speaker..


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

The Kato F-units and E-units would be iffy for speakers unless I could grind out a space. The second generation Kato Mikado might work. My only steamer.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

pmcgurin said:


> The Kato F-units and E-units would be iffy for speakers unless I could grind out a space. The second generation Kato Mikado might work. My only steamer.


I'd recommend starting out with one quality loco that is already sound-equipped. Run it for awhile (a month or two?) and see if you like it.

I bought a couple of sound-equipped N-scale BLI locos several years ago. While they were pretty cool when I first got them, I started noticing something - after the first 3 to 5 minutes or so of running one or the other, the sound would just start annoying me. Plus, if the loco hit the least little dead spot on the track (which I had cleaned to the max, no less) and the power was interrupted for a nano-second, it would stop at a dead halt and the electronic diesel engine would have to go back through it's electronic start-up sequence again before the loco would start moving again. Not fun if I was pulling a train and it would happen 2, 3, 4 times or so each lap on my somewhat sizable layout.

As a result, I found myself running them less and less, to the point of almost not at all. A year or two later, I sold them both off. I haven't bought a sound-equipped N-scale locomotive since. Even when other club members run their sound-equipped locos on the club layout at train shows, I find the constant sound annoying after a short while.

The moral of this story - before you spend a whole bunch of money on multiple sound-equipped locos, maybe buy one and try it for awhile first, and see if you really do like it. That way, you won't be out a whole lot of money if you decide maybe it's not as great as you thought it was.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I have to agree with Mixed Freight. I find BLI's Paragon 4 sound to be very annoying, especially the chuff of a steamer. I'm sure I can reprogram the sound decoder, but little annoying sounds are too loud, while you can barely hear the bell. You can hear an air pump loud as hell, but the bell???? not so much. And it has some sort of "load intensifier" thing with the chuffing sounds... Increase the speed the slightest amount, and the volume of the chuff goes through the roof, like it's trying to mimic the effort put into increasing speed... but it's just annoying.

I will say, I enjoy the bell and the horn, and I also like the idling of a diesel engine, but at speed, it tends to drone on and on. But then when I stop I just love to hear a brake squeal. So some sounds I like and others I hate.

On the other hand, the 2 locomotives I have with ESU sound decoders seem to be less annoying.

I do also notice that the BLI tends to stutter more (meaning it is more sensitive to a blip in the power supply)

It's almost like BLI tries too hard to be the "end all / do all" for sound, and it's just overboard in my opinion.


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

Mixed Freight said:


> I'd recommend starting out with one quality loco that is already sound-equipped. Run it for awhile (a month or two?) and see if you like it.
> 
> I bought a couple of sound-equipped N-scale BLI locos several years ago. While they were pretty cool when I first got them, I started noticing something - after the first 3 to 5 minutes or so of running one or the other, the sound would just start annoying me. Plus, if the loco hit the least little dead spot on the track (which I had cleaned to the max, no less) and the power was interrupted for a nano-second, it would stop at a dead halt and the electronic diesel engine would have to go back through it's electronic start-up sequence again before the loco would start moving again. Not fun if I was pulling a train and it would happen 2, 3, 4 times or so each lap on my somewhat sizable layout.
> 
> ...


That's sound advice. I know of model railroaders, that only have one or maybe two locos with sound, because it can be too much. I don't have sound myself, so I can't speak from personal experience, but some of the videos I've seen on YouTube have a real cacophony going on...


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## pmcgurin (Sep 7, 2010)

I hear what y'all are saying. My thoughts on DCC and sound are in flux. Sometimes stuff like train sounds might drive me crazy, and sometimes I think the right balance of sounds would add a wonderful dimension to the trains. I think its worth a shot, while acknowledging that the loco might end up through the window and on the lawn. Thanks for these thoughtful replies.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

The BLI locos are a solid $200+ everywhere (but come with decoder & sound already). I found Kato locos that are DC for $85, and DCC decoders for them for $32 by NCE. Are the NCE decoders solid, or should I look to find another brand (like ESU)? Right now, sound is not a concern, biggest thing is being DCC capable.


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## 5kidsdad (Nov 28, 2021)

Try to find something that's DCC ready. Will save you some aggravation when you decide on a system. I'm sure you'll get a variety of answers on which system is better. I will be following this to see what is suggested for DCC. I plan to upgrade to it. All my locos are DCC ready.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

5kidsdad said:


> Try to find something that's DCC ready. Will save you some aggravation when you decide on a system. I'm sure you'll get a variety of answers on which system is better. I will be following this to see what is suggested for DCC. I plan to upgrade to it. All my locos are DCC ready.


The one I’m looking at is called “DCC ready”, but it needs a drop-in decoder installed. Looks pretty simple from the internet information.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

EBrown said:


> The BLI locos are a solid $200+ everywhere (but come with decoder & sound already). I found Kato locos that are DC for $85, and DCC decoders for them for $32 by NCE. Are the NCE decoders solid, or should I look to find another brand (like ESU)? Right now, sound is not a concern, biggest thing is being DCC capable.


I've used TCS, NCE, and Digitrax decoders. All are pretty decent, in my opinion. Although they may have little "idiosyncrasies" between them, depending on your DCC system. Nothing to be worried about, however. Can't personally vouch for ESU, haven't tried them yet.


EBrown said:


> The one I’m looking at is called “DCC ready”, but it needs a drop-in decoder installed. Looks pretty simple from the internet information.


Yes, generally, drop-in decoder installations are quite simple. Just make double-sure they're properly insulated per instructions, so they don't short out and fry themselves after installation.


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## Displaced EL guy (3 mo ago)

I'm a fan of Atlas and Kato. Consistent quality, consistent performance. I had a couple of my father's Bachmann DC/DCC locos. They ran pretty well on straight DC, but I sold them, as the roads were not "on topic" for what I'm modeling. BLI... I had a couple of my father's NYC E units. They were older, and I don't have DCC, so their start up and consistent running was sketchy. Seems like you have to give them full power quickly to get them to go properly. Maybe it was my transformer...


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

Displaced EL guy said:


> BLI... I had a couple of my father's NYC E units. They were older, and I don't have DCC, so their start up and consistent running was sketchy. Seems like you have to give them full power quickly to get them to go properly. *Maybe it was my transformer...*


No. It wasn't your transformer.

I also had a couple of older BLI E6's in my favorite road name. The sound decoders sucked up a lot of the starting voltage before the locos would start moving. Their start-up and consistent running was sketchy for me, too.. And I even DID have DCC.

They didn't work well or play well with the rest of my locomotives (none of which had sound). As I am not a big fan of sound-equipped locos in N-scale anyways, I ended up selling them off. I miss the E6's in their glorious R.I. passenger paint scheme. I don't miss the BLI guts at all!


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## Displaced EL guy (3 mo ago)

Mixed Freight said:


> No. It wasn't your transformer.
> 
> I also had a couple of older BLI E6's in my favorite road name. The sound decoders sucked up a lot of the starting voltage before the locos would start moving. Their start-up and consistent running was sketchy for me, too.. And I even DID have DCC.
> 
> They didn't work well or play well with the rest of my locomotives (none of which had sound). As I am not a big fan of sound-equipped locos in N-scale anyways, I ended up selling them off. I miss the E6's in their glorious R.I. passenger paint scheme. I don't miss the BLI guts at all!


on one loco, the startup routine would choke at some point. the other would keep going. Sometimes one or the other would go into a loop of repeating a short segment of sound. I sold them as well. thanks for sharing!


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## RBasinger (1 mo ago)

I highly recommend Kato locomotives, but lately I have purchased a few Scaletrains locomotives and I think they are pretty close to Kato. They are very well detailed and run very well. I especially like their U.P Big Blow Turbines.

Sent from my Nokia 7.2 using Tapatalk


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

RBasinger said:


> I highly recommend Kato locomotives, but lately I have purchased a few Scaletrains locomotives and I think they are pretty close to Kato. They are very well detailed and run very well. I especially like their U.P Big Blow Turbines.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia 7.2 using Tapatalk


I just got their recent run of the Big Blow and I have to agree. They are very good locomotives. So far, it is as good as my Kato engines but definitely more finely detailed. Kato gets the nod for how quick and easy it is to get parts, but I haven't needed any for the Big Blow yet. I am definitely going to be getting more Scaletrains models.


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