# Track layout complete! - How to Wire Accesories?



## LionelRookie (Nov 11, 2011)

I have my simple track layout done and have hooked up only one terminaltrack ( Fastrack used ), with the smaller 40W transformer only to get it up and running.

Everything works, trains go around the track and the whistles whistle, the horn works, but my older engine with air horn sure did not like the 40w, it buzzed, dimmed the lights etc.

I have run this engine before but with the 80w and it ran alot better, so I am thinking with the 80w installed it will work better!

So, now the question I have is... I have a number of accessories, about 8 of them. 1) Icing Machine
2) 342/345 Culvert Loader // Unloader
3) Log Loader- Conveyer
4) Barrel Loader - Conveyer
5) Cow Corral
6) Horse Corral
7) Freight Terminal
8) MTH - Hotel
- Candy Store
- Green barn
- Apt Building.

My plan was to operate the track power and switches ( 6 of them ) off the 80W transformer.

The accessories of the 40W. Will this be enough, considering that the accessories will only need power when used?

Also, I have read the PDF's online from Lionel and quite a few can use an accessory track, but can I not just power them with a simple single throw on off switch?

That is how I have my 342/345 set up. Powered back to the transformer and running off the switch. When I flick it... It works!

Just wondering which is the better or preferred method.

Bryan


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you have 022 switches, remember that you have two bulbs consuming several watts each on ever switch/controller combination. It adds up pretty quickly. Just for the bulbs you have 24 watts before you throw a switch. 

I think I'd probably be looking for more power for the accessories. Even with just a few lights on, you're sucking up a good portion of the capacity of the 40W transformer. The MTH accessories all have lights, so you need to figure the power draw of all of them.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, I agree. A 40W transformer is kinda wimpy. My recommendation, as usual, is to get a KW. Best bang for the buck. 

Rookie, if you make the recommendations in my post on fixing 022 switches, you will reduce the light bulb power consumption by a considerable amount. 30% if I remember correctly.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Using LED replacements in the 022's, and not using the big controllers will reduce it even more.


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## LionelRookie (Nov 11, 2011)

*Uprgrading power supply.*

Well, it looks like I'm going to have to upgrade after all. I am using all Fastrack pieces my inner circle which is where all the action is all has 0-36 and 8 switches ( I recounted ) they all have the led bulbs in them.

Plus all the accessories, I guess I got a little out of control. I still have my outer loop to do and the other buildings that surround it. Ugh 

Oh well, off to the Bay and source me out a ZW.

Bryan


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## LionelRookie (Nov 11, 2011)

*Kw vs cw80*

I just re-read the post and it said KW... that is the 90W, I have already two CW-80 along with the CW40.

My over all plan was to use one of the CW80 for the 0-72 outer track, 8 x 8.5 with a passing loop, then the second CW80 to power the track, then the CW40 for the accessories.

Within the inner circle I have 120 watts do I not? Or am I not calculating right?

Bryan


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

You can't have too much power





















I have 3 1033's and 2 Radio Shack 12.6v transformers. The 1033's power some of my lights, the 8 bulb towers and a few other things, just to show me the 1033's are on.

All in all, over 225 lights. Some LEDs, some 53's.

I started out having buildings on one switch, streetlights on another etc. 

If I were to do it over (heaven forbid, but if I did, I'd paint my plywood green first) I'd run a power line to a section of the table. It would save me a whole bunch of wire.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Rookie,
The KWs are 190 watts. You can probably buy 2 or 3 for the price of a ZW. I have 4 of them and 1 ZW. If you can buy them with a bad power cord and know how to replace the power cord, they can be cheap. If you had 2 KWs you would have controls for 4 trains + fixed voltage taps at 20, 6, and 14 volts + 4 whistle controllers + 380 watts. With the ZW, you get two whistle controllers and no fixed voltage taps and 275 watts.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Note that your Fastrack switches take almost no power, and you probably don't have to do anything special to handle eight of those. I was thinking of PW switches.

As far as the transformers, I have to disagree with Bruce on the capacity. The 190 or 275 watt rating for the KW and the ZW are input power, they won't actually supply 190 watts or 275 watts to the load. From a KW, you'll get about 140-150 watts maximum, and from a ZW, maybe 210-220 watts.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm a big believer in using a separate transformer for the accessories and lights. Looking over your list most of these will not be running concurrently so why not use the spare 40w transformer to power them. You should connect almost all of them via a control on of switch to variable power. That way you can set them to just the right power level when running them. Here is your list with my notes:

1) Icing Machine -Push button control runs off 12v
2) 342/345 Culvert Loader // Unloader - If these are post-war models, use separate on/off switches and run them off a variable control. If these are the modern reissues connect them to a fixed 12volts.

3) Log Loader- Conveyor - Use separate on/off switches and run them off a variable control.
4) Barrel Loader - Conveyor- Use separate on/off switches and run them off a variable control.

5) Cow Corral - Use separate on/off switches and run them off a variable control.
6) Horse Corral- Use separate on/off switches and run them off a variable control.
7) Freight Terminal - Use separate on/off switches and run them off a variable control.
8) MTH - Hotel
- Candy Store
- Green barn
- Apt Building.
These all run off a strait 12v.

I'm not a big fan of the KW which has a flaw of not having a common neutral. Used ZW are plentiful and have come down considerably in price. They have plenty of power, a common neutral, and 4 separate controls for trains and accessories.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What are you talking about the KW and ZW has a very similar arrangement for commons?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

No they don't. The accessory voltages 12, 6, etc have a separate common from the track. On the KW the accessory voltage common is the C connection and the track common is the U. The ZW has one common U connection. What I do is run a black U wire under my layout and tap all track, lighting, and accessory returns to it. That is not possible with a KW which requires separate circuits.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I just looked at one of my KWs, and both the 20 volt and 6 volt fixed voltages are referenced to the U terminal. The 14 volt tap is not referenced to U. I have used the 20 volt tap for the fixed voltage of 022 switches, so I know of what I speak. If you want to use the 14 volt tap, whatever you use it for must be floating from the track power.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The 20 volt tap on the KW is the same winding that is used for the variable outputs. There is no separate 20 volt winding inside the transformer. Therefore, the 20 volt tap cannot avoid being referenced to the U terminal.


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

My KW is clearly marked 20v B-D, 14v D-C, 6V A-C. This is confirmed by my Greenberg repair manual diagrams. Just to be sure I also connected an ac meter. The U connection is not common to any of the accessory voltages. You cannot get 6, or 14v unless you return back to the C connection. That prevents you from running most track accessories and switches that use the outer rail, U connection, as a common return from fixed transformer power.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I checked 3 of my KWs. D-U is 20 volts. A-U & B-U are variable. C-U is 6 volts. D-U is 20 volts. C-D is 14 volts. The upper right terminal and upper left terminals are both labeled U. The lower left is B. The lower right is A. The two terminals in the center are C & D, left to right. Does this match your transformer?


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## BigAl56 (Dec 14, 2011)

OMG, have I been looking at this upside down!!!??? The U is indeed common to 20V and 6v. C is common to the more useful 14V.

I just realized the drawing in the Greenberg book is upside down. :lol_hitting:

ooops, never mind.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

BTW, for anyone who is thinking of buying commercial transformers from Radio Shack or other places, I looked at this a few years ago, and concluded that Lionel transformers are much cheaper and better adapted to train layouts or accessories.


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## plandis (Oct 5, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Using LED replacements in the 022's, and not using the big controllers will reduce it even more.


do you have a good source for a direct replacement LED for those 022s?
I'd like to get some for all the 71's steet lights I have to!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

> As far as the transformers, I have to disagree with Bruce on the capacity. The 190 or 275 watt rating for the KW and the ZW are input power, they won't actually supply 190 watts or 275 watts to the load. From a KW, you'll get about 140-150 watts maximum, and from a ZW, maybe 210-220 watts.


I hear people claim that these transformers have these low efficiencies, but I don't believe it.  For this to be true, the ZW would need to dissipate 55-65 watts inside the case of the transformer. This would cause the case to get very HOT. It doesn't get hot, so the claim cannot be true. Just think of putting a 60 watt light bulb inside a ZW case. You wouldn't be able to touch it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bruce, load up that ZW to put out about 200 watts for an hour or so and you'll find that it gets plenty warm.

Have you actually measured 275 watts from a ZW, or even anything close?

I would be very surprised if any of the old PW transformers were better than 90% efficiency, and I'd be guessing more in the 85% range.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I am in process of doing just that. I have a clamp on ammeter and a Fluke DMM. I made some measurements yesterday of the resistance of the 20 volt winding of the transformer, and it came to about 0.2 ohms. The meter doesn't read very accurately at this range, so I will use another meter I have that is about 10x more accurate. With these low resistances it is important to make sure the connection is very good. One of my KWs has a lot of corrosion on the terminals, and so this one is not a good candidate for making measurements. The ones that have clean terminals are showing a high resistance across the variable terminals which I am sure is accumulation of dirt on the windings where the roller is. When the transformer is supplying power to a train, this dirt or corrosion tends to be overcome and its resistance is quite low. I was measuring 10+ ohms on both of the transformers that have clean terminals. I have a fourth KW that is readily accessible, so I will check it also, and probably clean the windings before I come to any conclusion. 

I still am convinced that you cannot dissipate 60 watts inside a ZW case without it getting very hot. There is no ventilation. It might be possible to verify the efficiency with data from the Internet re transformers with square cores rather than E cores.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Bruce, here's a thread where a guy did some tests.

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/themes/t...readID=71806&PostID=872962&PermaPostID=872962

There is also a note in the Lionel service information from Olsen's site that the 250 watt ZW can supply 180 watts continuously at 14A. I doubt that the 275 watt version with the slightly improved core suddenly achieved nearly 100% efficiency.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I just did a quick test here with a ZW-R, which has the improved core that is supposed to also improve it's efficiency.

I had four 8 ohm 75W resistors in parallel to give me about 2 watts, at full throttle I got 17.75 volts and 9.5 amps at the output terminals. for 169 watts. The input voltage was 122 volts and the current was 1.65 amps for 201 watts. That gives the ZW-R roughly an 85% efficiency, pretty much in line with what I expected. I really doubt the ZW or KW is going to exceed that. 

This is a ZW-R that has new rollers (yes, I did take your advice and solder the rivets).


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

That is a 32 watt power dissipation inside the transformer. That is a long ways from 60 watts. 

Some of the input current is in quadrature with the voltage, but we would need a power meter to measure the true power from the line. I might be able to measure the voltage and current with a scope and get a reasonable estimate of the power factor from that. The reactive component of the input power may be where a good amount of the input power is. As we know, when the transformer is unloaded, there is some current drawn from the 120 volts. This is made up of I^2*R losses in the windings, hysteresis in the core, and reactive current due to the inductance of the core. I can measure the inductance and resistance of the primary winding directly, but not the core hysteresis. If I get time in the next few days, I may make these measurements. Fortunately, Skycraft (www.skycraftparts.com) is not far away and I can buy power resistor, panel meters, etc., pretty cheap.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Mine was a 5 minute exercise, and I used all the resistors I had to create the load.  I left it run for an hour, and the transformer was noticeably warm, I should have measured the case temperature.

I'm going to try a similar experiment with a modern transformer, the 180 watt PowerHouse, we'll see how it goes.

I realize there may be measurement errors, but I still maintain that the efficiency of old PW transformers aren't going to exceed 90%, and probably less.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Here is a good paper re transformer efficiency measurements: http://www.energymanagertraining.com/CodesandManualsCD-5Dec 06/BEE CODE -TRANSFORMERS.pdf


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I tried the same test on one of my PowerHouse 180 transformers, I got 161 watts out and 183 watts in.

Clearly, I don't have the equipment or the inclination to do testing on the scale in that paper. I'll also mention that large transformers almost always have a higher efficiency than small ones. I've seen that mentioned several times in searches as well.


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

I got a KW on ebay for 68 bucks with no control arm. took a risk, turns out the unit was like new, carbon rollers were new, case like new and cord, the plate with no rust, I got a arm and alluminum plate and it runs great! not bad for 68 bucks for 190 watts, old trusty things! I got 2 of them and a 1044 90 watt to run the lights. 

go to shows and buy up the kw's.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I picked up a KW recently on eBay for $34. It was missing the small whistle lever (I already had one) and it needs rollers and a power cord. Rollers cost me about $1.50, and $2.00 for the power cord. Net result is a nice KW for less than $40. (well, shipping was $14...)


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, that is the way I like to buy them. When they need a little work they can go really cheap. The shipping is a little bit of heart burn, but $48 including shipping isn't too bad.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The cheapest I've scored a KW is $30 + shipping on eBay. I don't see any at the local train shows, and I don't get to many train shows around here. The last Greenberg show I went to was very disappointing, I haven't been to one since.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I bought one from Craig's List and one from a LHS. Both were cheap.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've looked on Craig's List many times and I've never found anything worthwhile. I finally simply gave up on them, too big a time waster for me.


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## Konga Man (Dec 12, 2010)

IMHO, there are two (sometimes) conflicting criteria in selecting a transformer. 

First, you want to power the trains. Trouble is, some make you choose between too slow or too fast. Take the R, for example: 6-16V or 14-24V. 16V is a low top end (except for under the tree), but 14V is a high low end. I like the V or Z: 6-25V. With a range like that, you can creep or go airborne. 

Second, you have to consider optimal voltage for accessories. I like to run switches at 14-16V. To get 14-16V fixed, you sometimes have to compromise on the track voltage -- or run the switches at a higher voltage.

OTOH, it's not completely ridiculous to have a dedicated accessory transformer. Consider the AX (with 4 different simultaneous fixed outputs: 5/10/15/20V), RW (with 3 different simultaneous fixed outputs: 10/16/19V) or RX (with 3 different simultaneous fixed outputs: 10/14/18V, plus a 0-6V "dimmer" circuit).

I've got an R hooked up with a DPDT switch to go back and forth between "kid mode" and "adult mode" on a two-block layout. In kid mode, it's B for the common (B-C, B-F; 6-16V) and B-E (16V) for the fixed. In adult mode, it's A for the common (A-C, A-F; 14-24V) and A-D (14V) for the fixed. So, the switch selects the common (B or A) and the fixed (E or D). Switches work great either way, and it keeps the trains operating in only 2 dimensions when little engineers are at the controls.

I find the ZW cool in a Buck Rogers sort of way, but the inner controls are kind of a PITA to use. You could always use the inner controls as fixed terminals, but do you really want to bet that they won't get moved? IMHO, two KW's are more practical than one ZW. If you're looking on eBay, the key is finding one with reasonable shipping. $30 for shipping? NFW.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I want to keep any KW purchases under $50 total, that's my benchmark for price and shipping. For the ZW when they come along, I try to keep those under $100 total. It takes patience for the ZW, they seem to sell like hotcakes.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, I agree with your price objective. Usually, it requires that you buy one that needs a little work, like a power cord. I buy extension cords at Home Depot for $1 and take advantage of the polarized plug.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll have to check HD for the $1 extension cord, that's a good price.


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## MPCAnthony (Oct 13, 2011)

servoguy said:


> John, I agree with your price objective. Usually, it requires that you buy one that needs a little work, like a power cord. I buy extension cords at Home Depot for $1 and take advantage of the polarized plug.


Love this ides. Thanks!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

old464 said:


> I got a KW on ebay for 68 bucks with no control arm. took a risk, turns out the unit was like new, carbon rollers were new, case like new and cord, the plate with no rust, I got a arm and alluminum plate and it runs great! not bad for 68 bucks for 190 watts, old trusty things! I got 2 of them and a 1044 90 watt to run the lights.
> 
> go to shows and buy up the kw's.


WHich one doesn't run now?

link to problem.


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## old464 (Oct 12, 2011)

my dads old one has a sticky whistle control. He never used the whistle and I did not either until now, with the mth's. now I have issues. my new one I got for the 68 bucks has no issues and I got the new arm and alluminum plate. its like a new transformer. estate deals are great!

chris


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