# Old and New from Toronto



## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

Good day, I thought I would introduce myself and my / our project.

Back when I was a child in the 70's I had an HO layout with my older brother, it was a TRI-ANG set. Enjoyed it but I eventually put away childish things so to speak. Then about a decade ago my in-laws bought me a grocery store HO kit, with an engine and a few cars, standard oval loop and basic power supply.

This year my son dug it out and took a feindish interest in the kit and so for this Christmas just past, we (parents) agreed to build on that kit and develop a proper layout for him in the basement.

We had a chat with him (he's 8 years old but quite responsible) and basically said, you can go two ways, one, we buy you some new gear for Xmas, but it will be limited in scope and scale or two, we scour Craigslist and buy up some old collections of stuff, the upside is you will get a lot more equipment for the budget we have allocated but, there is a good chance some of it will be garbage or may not work so well, buyer beware!.

Well being an ambitious little guy he opted for the Craigslist route, which is what I was kind of hoping for. I hoped for this to be the case so that if he is rough with the gear and it dies, well, no big deal. So after buying two collections of gear on line and combining it with my childhood gear and what I was given a little while ago, plus, one more new Bachman kit set from the grandparents for Christmas, he is swimming in trains for not a ton of money.

A quick inventory suggests we have 8 engines, one dummy, 60-70 cars of all sorts, 80% of them in working condition and I think we are running about 120 feet of track including 4-6 decent turnouts with some remote motors. We also have 8 power supplies and a few control switches, not to mention a ton of buildings, bridges and two half decent books on building layouts including one by Atlas circa 1972, that has some decent wiring diagrams.

We are currently doing a big clean out in our unfinished basement to create the proper room for a layout. The objective is a 12 foot by 4 foot table with access on three sides. 

I have been scouring the web for information to develop a plan for how to move forward and I bought a copy of ANYRAIL to get started with the layout plan. As luck would have it I also am an Architect so planning is the easy part for me so far.

We are taking the approach that we will run a dual CAB DC system. I am not going down the DCC route. When the wind changes direction and his interests change with that, I don't want a ton of shiny new equipment going un-used. The goal now is to use what we have and supplement it as required for little to no dollars where possible. We are not looking to build a scale replica kind of layout, we are looking to have fun operating some trains.

So I do have a few simple questions to get started.

Is it safe to assume that most off the shelf starter kits are code 83 track? We will be buying some flex track and a few turnouts for our layout and I want to get off on the right foot with the right track, so clearly we want to build on what we already have a ton of.

Some of the older engines are pretty sticky shall we say. Is it straight forward to give them a lube job to bring some more life back to them?


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

The layout we are developing right now is designed to be built in stages, the most important thing being to get him up and running in a fixed location, other than the living room floor, in a hurry, with some basic switching. We are going to build up the layers vertically as time goes by, so what we start with now will essentially end up underground later on. That having been said, our layout is also designed to be exciting. We are going for a long double loop on the upper levels with a ton of bridges, and I do mean a ton of bridges, 14 easily, spanning some canyons, lakes etc. On upper and lower levels we will likely have X-over areas so we can switch directions on the loops on each level. Lower level will end up as switching yards for the most part.

I will post some of the proposed layout pics as well. 

For inclines we have tried really hard to keep them to less than 3.5% and I doubt we'll run any huge long trains anyhow. As for curves, well we are trying to use up a lot of the 18" Radius stuff we bought up but I am putting in a lot of 22" parts for easements where there is room in the layout to do so. Likewise, we are going with all number 4 turnouts for the time being.

For table height, well I am going with a relatively short 28" for the lowest level, which will eventually be 36" at the highest level. He and his sister top out at 50" tall right now and he has a 28" reach without straining. The layout will also have two "wells" in the middle that the kids can crawl under to access. I have tried to make sure all turnouts are accessible from the sides or the wells for the kids so they can fix their own problems without the use of a "daddy crane". This layout is very much for the kids.

Conveniently at the office I also have a bunch of old material available to me to use. 1000' of 24 AWG ethernet cable for use on remote turnouts, 600' of 16 AWG speaker cable for Buss wiring etc. 1/2" ply and 2x4's etc for the bench work. Already equipped with pretty much any tools I need including full soldering gear etc. Endlessamounts of other electronic gear that we'll kit bash to make cool looking buildings and stuff like that.

Plan is to get the benchwork set up to accomodate the long term plan, this will include roughing in all the possible wiring before the deck goes onto the frame, I have a ton of wire so no sense it leaving it on the spool. I will likely put full scale plots of the pan on the top and bottom of the deck so I can easily trace the track work lying on my back in a dark cave a year from now. (As an architect I also have plotters that big lying about to be used as well).

We'll tack the deck in place and lay the first layer of track. I tend to put it down on double sided tape to start, for rough fitting, then we'll run the first stage of the layout for a few weeks to determine any fine tuning, then we can start laying road bed and fixing the track down for the long run if we're happy with it.

So, this is my start to this adventure. I would be happy to hear any feedback you guys can offer in respect of the gear we have, thr plan we have developed, and the layout we are working towards.


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

*Lower level*

The proposed lower level.


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

Proposed upper levels


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

And the proposed completed insanity layout, as I said, lot's of action


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

With some water features and the canyon etc.









Feel free to criticize away. i take no personal offence from any comments, as a sailor, I am comfortable with harsh language and insights.

One thing I am specifically interested about is how to deal with the X-sections in the middle fo the track from an electrical perspective. I think I need 3 ATLAS 215's and a 220 for the x-over parts.

I failed to mention we will break this baby up into about 15 blocks if required to make it more complicated and interesting to run.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Looks pretty nice, with a layout like that, have you considered DCC?


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

No as I said, no DCC, I have a ton of other things to spend my money on, so we're working on making DC work for this layout for now. If in two years he is still really into it, I will give it due consideration.

Having scanned these forums for a little while I know you are a huge advocate of DCC. Part of the fun for this for me is to see what we can make out of this old gear.

I suppose with all the stuff I have I could redundantly run all the wire required for DCC, so if I change my mind I don't need to spend a month under my layout changing it over.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There you go, plan ahead.


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## Ren (May 31, 2012)

I think you mentioned, you had a Grocery store set-If its the PC one, that uses Brass and I believe its 100 not 83. Safer to replace that bit than to try and use it. My 2 cents. Good luck. This is a much better use of time with the kids than movies or TV.


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## Ren (May 31, 2012)

Not sure if this is close to you. But its a great store and the people are very knowledgeable.
http://www.cvrco.com/


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## Blunted (Dec 3, 2012)

Ren said:


> Not sure if this is close to you. But its a great store and the people are very knowledgeable.
> http://www.cvrco.com/


A bit off of the beaten path for me, I am in the Beaches, so john's hobby is the closest one (Pricey) and then hornet hobbies is also kind of close.

Thanks for the head's up however, when I am next in the direction I will pay them a visit, and leave my wallet in the car due to my terrible impulse control issues.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Blunted,

Wow ... for a newbie, that's one of the most informed introductions / plans I've ever read. Well done! You certainly are off to a great start in the planning stages.

An answer/opinion to one of your questions. If you're running older locos/cars, I'd suggest you stay with Code 100 track, rather than 83. Many older locos/cars have taller wheel flanges than more modern stuff, and as such, require the taller rail height of 100. If you run these on 83, you might bump into trouble with the ties.

With conventional DC, and depending on how you wire your track blocks, you'll likely have some reverse loops on your layout plan ... areas where the + of one rail criss-cross back to the - of the other rail. A no-no for proper running. There are electronic control systems that will let you do this, so you should think through this a bit more before delving too far ahead.

Regards,

TJ


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