# Question Regarding Railroad Operations at a Paper Mill



## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Hello,
I've been in the process of expanding my HO-scale layout to include multiple industries, one of which will be a paper mill. Going along with this, I've purchased a bulkhead flatcar for the pulpwood load and a boxcar to store the finished paper rolls, but had a question regarding operations at the mill. Since I imagine trains wouldn't have time to wait until the pulpwood load was completely removed from the flatcar, would it make more sense to leave the flatcar there, and then pick up the empty flatcar when a train returns to collect the paper rolls from the mill?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

There's a lot of opportunity with a paper mill. There would be a wood/raw materials yard where pulpwood could be delivered via a bulkhead flat (as you said) or wood chips and sawdust could be delivered via hopper or gondola. Finished goods would be picked up at a warehouse which would be a completely separate spur. Then you could have yet another spur going to the "plant" where tankers would deliver chemicals and/or boxcars would deliver other supplies. Each of these operations would be independent, so cars would be dropped off & picked up as needed.

Check out Evergreen Packaging in Canton, NC via google maps... Canton paper mill

That mill is served by the Blue Ridge Southern short line, so there's another aspect you could model.









Blue Ridge Southern Railroad - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Paper mills also consume a lot of fuel, either coal or oil. More rail freight
revenue for your layout.

Don


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Hello,
Thank you for replying so quickly. I do like this idea, though in looking at the size of my paper mill structure, I'm not sure I'd have enough room to add another spur, as the mill just fits alongside the lowest spur on the left-hand side of my layout. There are three spurs above the mill, but I planned on using those for other industries (i.e. lumber, grain, coal). Given the size of the mill, though (over 1.5 feet long), I could theoretically use one end for delivering the raw materials and the other end for picking up the finished goods.



Stumpy said:


> There's a lot of opportunity with a paper mill. There would be a wood/raw materials yard where pulpwood could be delivered via a bulkhead flat (as you said) or wood chips and sawdust could be delivered via hopper or gondola. Finished goods would be picked up at a warehouse which would be a completely separate spur. Then you could have yet another spur going to the "plant" where tankers would deliver chemicals and/or boxcars would deliver other supplies. Each of these operations would be independent, so cars would be dropped off & picked up as needed.
> 
> Check out Evergreen Packaging in Canton, NC via google maps... Canton paper mill
> 
> ...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JStussy said:


> Hello,
> Thank you for replying so quickly. I do like this idea, though in looking at the size of my paper mill structure, I'm not sure I'd have enough room to add another spur, as the mill just fits alongside the lowest spur on the left-hand side of my layout. There are three spurs above the mill, but I planned on using those for other industries (i.e. lumber, grain, coal). Given the size of the mill, though (over 1.5 feet long), I could theoretically use one end for delivering the raw materials and the other end for picking up the finished goods.


Just have spots for several different types of cars on the same spur. That complicates the switching task a lot, but having to pull partially loaded / unloaded cars to spot or pick up others just adds a bigger challenge.

And although I didn't see anyone specifically say it, it's rare for the road locomotive to wait around while cars are loaded or unloaded. It's much more common for them to drop empties or loads and return later for the loaded / empty cars that are created by the industry.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Hello,
Thank you for your reply. I figure I'll have enough room for two cars (bulkhead flatcar for raw materials, boxcar for finished goods) on this particular spur line, as it measures about 20 inches in length. I also reasoned that, given their timetables/schedules, trains wouldn't simply wait around for cars to be loaded and unloaded, but it's nice to have you confirm this.




CTValleyRR said:


> Just have spots for several different types of cars on the same spur. That complicates the switching task a lot, but having to pull partially loaded / unloaded cars to spot or pick up others just adds a bigger challenge.
> 
> And although I didn't see anyone specifically say it, it's rare for the road locomotive to wait around while cars are loaded or unloaded. It's much more common for them to drop empties or loads and return later for the loaded / empty cars that are created by the industry.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

JStussy said:


> Since I imagine trains wouldn't have time to wait until the pulpwood load was completely removed from the flatcar, would it make more sense to leave the flatcar there, and then pick up the empty flatcar when a train returns to collect the paper rolls from the mill?


That's how 99% of all rail-served industries work. Trains don't wait around for the cars to get loaded or unloaded.

The train "lifts" the outbound cars, "spots" the inbound cars and leaves.... the industry does their thing and informs the railroad when the car is ready to be picked up again. Then the next time the train runs (tomorrow) the RR does the same thing, picking up cars and dropping them off.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Thank you for further clarifying this. I am wondering, however, how exactly a load of pulpwood would be removed from a bulkhead flatcar. Would there be a machine to pick up the pulpwood pieces from the car or simply sweep them off to one side?




cv_acr said:


> That's how 99% of all rail-served industries work. Trains don't wait around for the cars to get loaded or unloaded.
> 
> The train "lifts" the outbound cars, "spots" the inbound cars and leaves.... the industry does their thing and informs the railroad when the car is ready to be picked up again. Then the next time the train runs (tomorrow) the RR does the same thing, picking up cars and dropping them off.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Lufkin, Texas. Southland paper mill. Crane unloading a flat car of pulpwood in the wood yard


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

A crane with a grabber claw is a common way, but dump arrangements would work, too.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Thank you for showing me this . I did have plans to add an industrial crane to my layout to simulate more realistic operations, though I'm thinking I may have to increase the length of the siding next to my paper mill to accommodate for the movement of the crane.



Stumpy said:


> Lufkin, Texas. Southland paper mill. Crane unloading a flat car of pulpwood in the wood yard


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Thank you for letting me know . Out of curiosity, how would pulpwood (or any other material) be dumped from a bulkhead flatcar?



CTValleyRR said:


> A crane with a grabber claw is a common way, but dump arrangements would work, too.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JStussy said:


> Thank you for letting me know . Out of curiosity, how would pulpwood (or any other material) be dumped from a bulkhead flatcar?


There are dumping cradles that actually turn the entire car upside down to dump it. However, it could simply be shoved off the car with an excavator, forklift, or hydraulic ram arrangement..


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

The grabber claw is easiest and cheapest, and takes no infrastructure. The pulpwood handling area can literally just be a flat dirt area.

Not paper mill photos, but the other end of the chain, pulpwood loading yards:









Log Loading Equipment and an Interesting Idea about Traffic


Other than iron ore from Wawa, and finished products from Algoma Steel created from said iron ore, one of the primary cargoes carried on the Algoma Central Railway was pulpwood. Over the years a nu...



vanderheide.ca


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

cv_acr said:


> The grabber claw is easiest and cheapest, and takes no infrastructure. The pulpwood handling area can literally just be a flat dirt area.
> 
> Not paper mill photos, but the other end of the chain, pulpwood loading yards:
> 
> ...


Cheapest to purchase, perhaps. Not necessarily to operate. Semi-automatic unloading operations that feed directly into a hopper and conveyor system are cheaper to operate, when you look at the cost of equipment operators, diesel fuel, etc. Semi-automated operations also generally have a much higher throughput.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Hello,
Thank you for responding . Given that rotary car dumpers first came into use around the 1920s, it would be historically accurate on my layout (1940s-50s steam-era mountain town). I'm not sure if I'd have room for a rotary dumper, though, as the paper mill structure already sits fairly close to the track. I do, however, have room in the siding so that a car can go beyond the building and possibly be unloaded with a crane.



CTValleyRR said:


> There are dumping cradles that actually turn the entire car upside down to dump it. However, it could simply be shoved off the car with an excavator, forklift, or hydraulic ram arrangement..


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Thank you for your response . I'm planning on purchasing a crane with a clamshell bucket to simulate unloading pulpwood from the cars, but wasn't sure whether to purchase a stationary crane or one on caterpillars to represent one that could move around.



CTValleyRR said:


> Cheapest to purchase, perhaps. Not necessarily to operate. Semi-automatic unloading operations that feed directly into a hopper and conveyor system are cheaper to operate, when you look at the cost of equipment operators, diesel fuel, etc. Semi-automated operations also generally have a much higher throughput.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JStussy said:


> Thank you for your response . I'm planning on purchasing a crane with a clamshell bucket to simulate unloading pulpwood from the cars, but wasn't sure whether to purchase a stationary crane or one on caterpillars to represent one that could move around.


Either. For a paper mill with expansive track and operations, a crawler crane would be more likely. For a fixed unloading site, and fixed crane is cheaper and easier to maintain.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Thank you for your response . Given that my paper mill will have one track serving it (the adjacent tracks will serve other industries), I think the fixed crane would be the best option. I also believe I may have figured out a loading/unloading plan for the two cars I would use at this industry:

1) Bulkhead flatcar loaded with pulpwood and empty boxcar are pushed into paper mill siding, with bulkhead flatcar being moved beyond mill building for unloading by crane.

2) Finished paper rolls are loaded onto boxcar.

3) Locomotive picking up freight cars picks up empty flatcar and loaded boxcar to bring back to the yard.




CTValleyRR said:


> Either. For a paper mill with expansive track and operations, a crawler crane would be more likely. For a fixed unloading site, and fixed crane is cheaper and easier to maintain.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JStussy said:


> Thank you for your response . Given that my paper mill will have one track serving it (the adjacent tracks will serve other industries), I think the fixed crane would be the best option. I also believe I may have figured out a loading/unloading plan for the two cars I would use at this industry:
> 
> 1) Bulkhead flatcar loaded with pulpwood and empty boxcar are pushed into paper mill siding, with bulkhead flatcar being moved beyond mill building for unloading by crane.
> 
> ...


The problem is one of volume. The contents of one flat of pulpwood probably won't fill a boxcar with paper.

A more common arrangement would be to separate the two, and have a more or less continuous stream of loaded flat cars coming in, with subsequent trains pulling the empties and delivering more loads. Boxcars would be picked up and dropped as needed, generally at the request of the mills Traffic Manager.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

That does make sense. Given that my fleet of locomotives (and rolling stock) is somewhat limited at present, though, I'm not sure I could have loaded flatcars constantly coming in to the mill area. Perhaps I could amend my above plan so that a boxcar picks up paper rolls only after multiple trips have been made to the mill to drop off pulpwood.



CTValleyRR said:


> The problem is one of volume. The contents of one flat of pulpwood probably won't fill a boxcar with paper.
> 
> A more common arrangement would be to separate the two, and have a more or less continuous stream of loaded flat cars coming in, with subsequent trains pulling the empties and delivering more loads. Boxcars would be picked up and dropped as needed, generally at the request of the mills Traffic Manager.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Thank goodness model RR's only have sounds and not smells! A paper mill can really reek! Nothing says you have to be running a really big paper mill, they could be making quality hand made paper and would only need a few flatcars to unload and an occasional boxcar to pickup!


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

Indeed, While the paper mill structure I have for my layout is rather large, I don't envision having a large-scale operation with multiple tracks in use. I also wasn't aware of the smell paper mills carried, though I do remember making paper by hand in a barrel for one of my history classes long ago. Speaking of unpleasant smells, I remember my alma mater had a walking trail that I went on a few times, and part of the trail went by a sewage treatment plant.



Lemonhawk said:


> Thank goodness model RR's only have sounds and not smells! A paper mill can really reek! Nothing says you have to be running a really big paper mill, they could be making quality hand made paper and would only need a few flatcars to unload and an occasional boxcar to pickup!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JStussy said:


> Indeed, While the paper mill structure I have for my layout is rather large, I don't envision having a large-scale operation with multiple tracks in use. I also wasn't aware of the smell paper mills carried, though I do remember making paper by hand in a barrel for one of my history classes long ago. Speaking of unpleasant smells, I remember my alma mater had a walking trail that I went on a few times, and part of the trail went by a sewage treatment plant.


It's the chemicals used that smell, but boy, do they reek. You used to be able to SMELL Lewiston-Auburn, Maine, 10 minutes before you got there.

Oddly enough, a properly-operating sewage treatment plant does NOT smell. The smell is caused by aerating the effluent before the bacteria has had time to digest all the organics (the smell is the decay bacteria "exhaling" as they digest). This is usually caused when a plant is operating over it's design capacity.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

I wasn't aware of that, thank you for letting me know . Speaking of overpowering smells, my one college roommate lives in Hershey, PA (his father works as a food scientist for the company), and he said that when the factory operated out of Hershey, the smell of chocolate was enough to overwhelm a person.



CTValleyRR said:


> It's the chemicals used that smell, but boy, do they reek. You used to be able to SMELL Lewiston-Auburn, Maine, 10 minutes before you got there.
> 
> Oddly enough, a properly-operating sewage treatment plant does NOT smell. The smell is caused by aerating the effluent before the bacteria has had time to digest all the organics (the smell is the decay bacteria "exhaling" as they digest). This is usually caused when a plant is operating over it's design capacity.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Sugar Creek treatment plant in Charlotte, NC must always be operating over capacity.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Chillicothe (Mead Paper) got rid of the smell by building a really tall smoke stack, discharging the reek high up so it didn't drift down over the town. It's been probably 50 years since I've been there so it may no longer exist.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

JStussy said:


> I wasn't aware of that, thank you for letting me know . Speaking of overpowering smells, my one college roommate lives in Hershey, PA (his father works as a food scientist for the company), and he said that when the factory operated out of Hershey, the smell of chocolate was enough to overwhelm a person.


Shows how a point of view makes a difference. When I was a kid and we went to Hershey Park, that was a smell like heaven to me.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

CTValleyRR said:


> The problem is one of volume. The contents of one flat of pulpwood probably won't fill a boxcar with paper.


An older article about modeling paper mills in Model Railroader posited about a roughly 4 to 1 ratio cars of raw materials (logs/chips) to finished products (paper rolls).

On the other hand, not all mills get 100% of their raw materials by rail, or not in such a raw form.

Some mills don't produce finished paper, but processed pulp, which is shipped in boxcars to OTHER mills for finishing into paper or paper products.

Some mills may use more recycled material than raw materials in their production, receiving scrap paper by truck or rail.


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## JStussy (Dec 31, 2020)

OK, thank you for letting me know . I'm not sure if I'd have enough room for a road to the paper mill, as the mill will be at the bottom of the layout and takes up a fair amount of space. I will, however, use the 4-to-1 ratio when operating trains on my layout, meaning I'll make four trips unloading raw materials before taking finished products away in a boxcar.



cv_acr said:


> An older article about modeling paper mills in Model Railroader posited about a roughly 4 to 1 ratio cars of raw materials (logs/chips) to finished products (paper rolls).
> 
> On the other hand, not all mills get 100% of their raw materials by rail, or not in such a raw form.
> 
> ...


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