# Improving Your [DCC] Decoders.. (Lighting & Sound)..



## ED-RRR

The "Capacitors" used in these (x2) projects are "Only" for "Temporary" power losses.. (Like Going Through A Switch Track)..
This project is "Not" intended to be "Compared" to a "Stay Alive"..
"Stay Alive" capacitors is a "Different" subject and there are also many other "Threads" regarding that subject..

Capacitors:
There are "No" NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) "Standards" when it comes to using "Capacitors"..

Project: (#1) 
This procedure can be used with any [DCC] decoder..
A "Capacitor" that is used to prevent momentary "Light Flickering" to the "Bulbs/LED's" to provide adequate lighting over "Temporary" power losses.. 
I "Recommend" using a (x1) 330µF 25V "Capacitor".. 
The same capacitor that "Digitrax" uses and "Approves"..









Project: (#2) 
"Not" all [DCC] "Sound" decoders come with a "Capacitor"..
A "Capacitor" is used to prevent momentary "Sound Gaps" to the "Speaker" to provide adequate sound over "Temporary" power losses.. 









I "Recommend" using a (x1) 330µF 25V "Capacitor".. 
The same capacitor that "Digitrax" uses and "Approves"..









As I have stated, I am "Only" recommending the same capacitor that "Digitrax" uses and "Approves"..

Caution: 
There may be postings from other individuals, to use a "Different Capacitor"..
How will this "Untested" procedure effect the performance of the [DCC] decoder ??
Only rely on an actual "Tested" capacitor, with pictures,
to prove that it is not "Theory"..
......


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## Mark VerMurlen

I don't see how adding a capacitor in series with a speaker is going to continue the sound during a power loss. Sound waves are created by the speaker cone moving back and forth. All I can see a capacitor doing is driving the speaker cone to one end of its travel or the other. Its not going to vary the signal in such a way to keep producing the tone that it had just before power loss. I also think the capacitor is going to interfere with the "good" sound signal while there is normal power available.

I think if you're going to open up your loco to improve any power loss scenarios, you're much better off with a "Keep Alive" solution that powers the entire loco electronics and then you don't have to worry about individual sub-circuits.

Mark


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## wvgca

ED-RRR
in your posted image of the capacitor in series to lights, it will act as a blocker, lights won't work .. period
in your posted image of the capacitor in series to the speaker, all it will do is attenuate low frequencies ...
to function as an additional power reserve, capacitors need to be wired in parallel, not series
trust me, the principles are basically grade six shop class stuff ..


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## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> I "Recommend" using a (x1) 330µF 25V "Capacitor"..
> The same capacitor that "Digitrax" uses and "Approves"..
> 
> View attachment 222626
> 
> 
> As I have stated, I am "Only" recommending the same capacitor that "Digitrax" uses and "Approves"..


That is a simple 1st Order High Pass Filter.
All it is going to do is reduce the lower (bass) frequencies going to the speaker, which most small speakers don't do well with anyway. It's not going to do anything to keep the sound from cutting out if power to the decoder is momentarily lost.


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## time warp

Is this a re thread of a failed thread?

We should call you thrED-RRR


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## mesenteria

Yikes! Snake oil or snake eyes, take yer pick.


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## ED-RRR

*Adding Capacitor --> To Speaker*



Mark VerMurlen said:


> I don't see how adding a capacitor in series with a speaker is going to continue the sound during a power loss. Sound waves are created by the speaker cone moving back and forth.
> Mark


I am "Not" posting any "Theoretical" information..

So you [Mark VerMurlen] are claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires..
......


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## time warp

Ed, this is where you crash and burn every time! Why don't you hook it up your self on your equipment and see how it works? You have no idea whether or not your circuit will work, you are just guessing.
After it either passes or fails, then you have something to talk about.


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## Mark VerMurlen

ED-RRR said:


> So you [Mark VerMurlen] are claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires..
> ......


They put the capacitor there for a different reason. As stated above, it helps filter out low frequency tones. That's probably why they do it. It won't do anything to keep the audio working during a power outage.

As also pointed out, the capacitor in series with the LEDs doesn't work either.

Every once in a while you have a good idea to share, but this isn't one of them.

Mark


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## ED-RRR

*Adding Capacitor --> To Speaker*



ED-RRR said:


> I am "Not" posting any "Theoretical" information..
> 
> So you [Mark VerMurlen] are claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires..
> ......





wvgca said:


> ED-RRR
> in your posted image of the capacitor in series to the speaker, all it will do is attenuate low frequencies ...
> to function as an additional power reserve, capacitors need to be wired in parallel, not series
> trust me, the principles are basically grade six shop class stuff ..


So you [wvgca] is also claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires..
I did my homework..
Do you [wvgca] know how the "Capacitor" actually stores the V-AC voltage going to the speaker ??
......


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## ED-RRR

*More Unproven Theory !!*



Mark VerMurlen said:


> They put the capacitor there for a different reason. As stated above, it helps filter out low frequency tones. That's probably why they do it. It won't do anything to keep the audio working during a power outage.
> 
> As also pointed out, the capacitor in series with the LEDs doesn't work either.
> 
> Every once in a while you have a good idea to share, but this isn't one of them.
> 
> Mark


More Unproven Theory !!
......


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## ED-RRR

*Adding Capacitor --> To Lighting..*



wvgca said:


> ED-RRR
> in your posted image of the capacitor in series to lights, it will act as a blocker, lights won't work .. period
> to function as an additional power reserve, capacitors need to be wired in parallel, not series
> trust me, the principles are basically grade six shop class stuff ..


So you [wvgca] is also claiming that "SoundTraxx" is "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the "Function" blue wire (+)
and the "Head Light" and "Back Up" lights..
I searched the internet and found this picture.. (Yes = Copy-N-Paste).. (For Actual 100% Proof).. 









......


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## Bwells

Ed, that is not how you drew it, look again at your drawing in post #1


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## johnfl68

You've edited (or is that ED-RRRted) the original image (not 100% copy and paste) and taken things out of context (as usual):











> Capacitor Connections (optional)
> In some cases you may wish to add a capacitor to the decoder to improve
> performance over dirty track. The 220μF 25 Volt capacitor included with your
> Micro-Tsunami was intended for this purpose. The capacitor may be wired to
> the decoder as follows: Connect the capacitor’s positive (+) lead to the BLUE
> wire. Connect the capacitor’s negative (-) lead to the GREEN-YELLOW
> wire. If a capacitor is not used, the GREEN-YELLOW wire should remain
> disconnected.


This is a special instance to the Tsunami decoders as part of their own keep alive circuity. It has nothing to do with the lights, other then it is connected to the same Function Common (Blue) wire as the lights.


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## ED-RRR

*Can You Read Correctly ??*



Bwells said:


> Ed, that is not how you drew it, look again at your drawing in post #1


Posting: (#1)
Lighting any [DCC] decoder..









Posting: (#12)
To prove to [wvgca] that SoundTraxx had an option to add a capacitor to the "Lighting"..
Here is the "Actual" picture with all the required wire connections..
My previous pictures were to simplify wiring..









......


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## time warp

You honestly don't see the difference in those circuits, Ed? Are you kidding? Geesh!


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## time warp

One is in series, one is in parallel.


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## ED-RRR

*Unrelated Information..*



johnfl68 said:


> You've edited (or is that ED-RRRted) the original image (not 100% copy and paste) and taken things out of context (as usual):
> 
> This is a special instance to the Tsunami decoders as part of their own keep alive circuity.
> It has nothing to do with the lights, other then it is connected to the same Function Common (Blue) wire as the lights.


(#1)
As I have stated in my "Posting" #1
This has nothing to do with "Keep Alive"..

(#2)
Here is an actual picture from SoundTraxx using a "Capacitor" for "Lighting"..









......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> So you [wvgca] is also claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires..
> I did my homework..
> Do you [wvgca] know how the "Capacitor" actually stores the V-AC voltage going to the speaker ??
> ......


Nope, digitrax and soundtraxx are fine .they work as intended
but they don't place the cap between the decoder and speaker in series as you have drawn. in post #1. that fact of yours is just wrong, nor does anyone place a capacitor in series to the lights [front / rear / accessory]

in your "completely wrong diagram', the capacitor stores NO voltage, AC DC or theoretical ... it's a FILTER as you have drawn it 

I don't correct your "facts" out of amusement .. [well, maybe partially], but for the possible result of someone that doesn't know much about DCC / Model Trains / Electronics, and goes ahead and follows your diagram, and then gets frustrated when it doesn't work, or possibly even blows up a decoder

don't believe me >> try wiring it that way YOURSELF, as opposed to posting unproven, and clearly incorrect information which will NOT help anyone ...

have to go now, trying to teach a pig how to fly


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## time warp

Ed, really buddy. The diagram in post 18 is in parallel, not series.


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> Ed, really buddy. The diagram in post 18 is in parallel, not series.



yes, the complete 'cut 'n' paste" , which is a parallel circuit, and has the negative end of the capacitor going to the green/yellow ground , is correct, and will work fine ..

also, there is no capacitor wired in series with the speaker in that image

the initial images shown in post #1, are in series and will not work as a power reserve of any type ..that 'simple - ified' circuit is pretty much useless


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## time warp

My head hurts


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## johnfl68

Not that EDD-RR will listen, but for others who maybe don't understand.

This is a quick and overly simplified block diagram, but helps explain.
There may be other components as part of the energy storage circuitry involved based on how each manufacturer designs there decoders and if they even offer a energy storage option.









The Capacitor has nothing directly to do with the lights, it just shares the same Function Common (Blue) with the Function Ground (Green/Yellow - Green in my diagram). This is so that the capacitor charges from the power AFTER the Bridge Rectifier, but BEFORE the Processor, Motor Control Processor, and Function Processor. 

This is so that during a momentary power glitch, the capacitor will then provide very short duration energy to those processors until the Bridge Rectifier can again supply energy (and start charging the capacitor again).


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## wvgca

just as a point of reference, the capacitor used on the soundtraxx decoder can be replaced with a larger value capacitor, and will increase 'power shortage' runtime for the sound , this has been an old topic for some time, but it's a moot point as that capacitor is not tied into the motor drive circuit, so the loco will stop but the sound will play for a brief time ..
the primary reason for the cap on the soundtraxx is to prevent the sound processor from resetting during a momentary interruption, and playing the 'start up' sequence again
also, a added capacitor can be added to virtually any decoder, some may have the connection points either visible or already wired in, but for most you will have to find the ground on the decoder pcb itself, and do some soldering


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## ED-RRR

*[DCC] Lighting..*



time warp said:


> You honestly don't see the difference in those circuits, Ed? Are you kidding? Geesh!





time warp said:


> One is in series, one is in parallel.





time warp said:


> Ed, really buddy. The diagram in post 18 is in parallel, not series.


[time warp]:
Do you have any experience when it comes to using [DCC] ??

I think that [time warp] should learn about [DCC] wiring and [DCC] operations..
Both (x2) lights do "Not" operate at the "Same" time..
The (White Wire) (-) is "Only" activated when the locomotive is moving "Forward".. (Head Light)..
The (Yellow Wire) (-) is "Only" activated when the locomotive is moving "Backwards".. (Back Up Light)..








......


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## CTValleyRR

All I can say is that if all 3 of you (ED-RRR, TimeWarp, and wvgca) offered to install a sound decoder and capacitor in one of my locos, the only person I WOULDN'T let touch it is you, ED.


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> [time warp]:
> Do you have any experience when it comes to using [DCC] ??
> 
> I think that [time warp] should learn about [DCC] wiring and [DCC] operations..
> Both (x2) lights do "Not" operate at the "Same" time..
> The (White Wire) (-) is "Only" activated when the locomotive is moving "Forward".. (Head Light)..
> The (Yellow Wire) (-) is "Only" activated when the locomotive is moving "Backwards".. (Back Up Light)..
> 
> View attachment 223226
> 
> ......


ED-RRR,

You need to go back and look at the other diagrams and compare it to your "simplified" diagram.

You haven't simplified the circuit - you have changed it - and it will not work as intended.

Moreover the lights will not illuminate.

In the original diagram the negative lead of the cap is connected to "function ground" and the positive lead to "function +".

You have broken the connection that was from "function +" to the LEDs and connected the LEDs to the negative lead of the cap.

And the negative lead of the cap is no longer connected to "function ground".

Take the time to compare the diagrams and you will see the difference.

Frederick


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## time warp

Seeing that I commented on the illustrations with the parallel circuits, why have you now posted the picture with the series circuit?

The part of the circuit in question has nothing to do with DCC. It's a simple, very very simple, common wire circuit.

The illustration that you posted here is a series circuit, the LEDs, or lights in question change States relative to the current flow through each light, or LED, through the control side of the circuit, not the common

I built a 4H project when I was in 5th grade that demonstrated the differences between series and parallel circuits. Also series / parallel circuits. I won a ribbon for it at the fair. When I was a child. I'm 54 now.

I am absolutely positive that you asked me this question because you don't know the difference between a series and a parallel circuit, nor do you understand how an electrolytic capacitor reacts to input.

There is no shame in not knowing something Ed. I've got a GROB basic Electronics book on my shelf that I bought brand new in 1981. If you have any other Ultra simple very basic electrical or Electronics questions that you need answered please feel free to ask. I am at your disposal.


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> I built a 4H project when I was in 5th grade that demonstrated the differences between series and parallel circuits. Also series / parallel circuits. I won a ribbon for it at the fair. When I was a child. I'm 54 now.
> 
> If you have any other Ultra simple very basic electrical or Electronics questions that you need answered please feel free to ask. I am at your disposal.



for me series / parallel was grade six shop class .. no ribbons

it's really good of you to offer to help ED-RRR with basic electronics ...


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## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> I think that [time warp] should learn about [DCC] wiring and [DCC] operations..
> Both (x2) lights do "Not" operate at the "Same" time..
> 
> ......


Actually they can, either by direct function control [regardless of direction], and also by the commonly used 'Rule 17', where direction of travel is bright, and opposite end is dim ..

unless you wire a capacitor in series as in the image attached to that post , then you may qualify as 'the prince of darkness'


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## CTValleyRR

time warp said:


> There is no shame in not knowing something Ed. I've got a GROB basic Electronics book on my shelf that I bought brand new in 1981. If you have any other Ultra simple very basic electrical or Electronics questions that you need answered please feel free to ask. I am at your disposal.


There is no shame in being wrong, either. The shame comes from insulting others, putting them down, demeaning their knowledge. And then finding out that YOU were the one who made a mistake. This is how a person backs himself into a corner from which there is no graceful exit and has to resort to bluff, bombast, and insult to try to save face. Sound familiar, ED?


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## wvgca

CTValleyRR said:


> There is no shame in being wrong, either.


quite true, it's one of he ways we all learn, sometimes painfully ..
at this point i have probably forgotten more than i now know..
not sure, can't really remember


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## Bwells

This maybe an option but I want to run it by you first as it just popped into mind and has not been built or tested.
I was thinking two caps would be required wired as follows:
First cap wired across the blue and white wires and the second cap across the blue and yellow wires paying close attention to the polarities of each cap.
It seems like it would work and actually be an added "attraction" as when changing from forward to reverse, the headlight would dim slowly rather than going out immediately. If this is feasible and would work, that would be great! Let me know if this is possible.


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## fcwilt

Bwells said:


> I was thinking two caps would be required wired as follows:
> First cap wired across the blue and white wires and the second cap across the blue and yellow wires paying close attention to the polarities of each cap.


Well the intent of adding the cap as in the correct diagrams is to keep the decoder powered during brief interruptions in power from the track due to dirt and such.

And often the cap has much a larger value. One chart I saw listed values for commercial units from 36,700 to 2,500,000 uF.


Your idea serves a interesting yet totally different purpose.


Frederick


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> This maybe an option but I want to run it by you first as it just popped into mind and has not been built or tested.
> I was thinking two caps would be required wired as follows:
> First cap wired across the blue and white wires and the second cap across the blue and yellow wires paying close attention to the polarities of each cap.
> It seems like it would work and actually be an added "attraction" as when changing from forward to reverse, the headlight would dim slowly rather than going out immediately. If this is feasible and would work, that would be great! Let me know if this is possible.


\
it would be a nice effect, but unfortunately it would not work, the blue [power common] is always live, and the function leads are the grounds ... when you 'turn off' the light / bulb / led, there is no longer a complete circuit ...the capacitor would, however, store power reserve [ when the function is grounded, or enabled], that would possibly reduce 'flickering' of the light during very short power interruptions ..it would depend on how long a time period that the decoder was able to sustain the transistor involved in taking that function lead to ground ..
quite likely a 'try it and see' scenario


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## time warp

I think that's an interesting idea, Bwells. Now we have to get somebody to prototype a light dimmer module. I'm a fixer. Not a builder.


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## Bwells

W, when the function lead is turned off, wouldn't the stored charge in the cap continue to power until exhausted? it would still have a direct connection to the bulb. Those are some hefty caps FC mentioned, have to be super caps and even then room could be a concern. Oh well, just a thought.
I would still address the track issues that are causing the problem. Mine was unpowered #8 frogs and the fix was to power them.


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> W, when the function lead is turned off, wouldn't the stored charge in the cap continue to power until exhausted? it would still have a direct connection to the bulb. Those are some hefty caps FC mentioned, have to be super caps and even then room could be a concern. Oh well, just a thought.
> I would still address the track issues that are causing the problem. Mine was unpowered #8 frogs and the fix was to power them.


yes, the caps would still have stored power, but without the function being enabled, there would be no ground , 
same as hooking power to one side of led, [same as blue wire], and nothing on the other side, no ground, no light


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## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> yes, the caps would still have stored power, but without the function being enabled, there would be no ground ,
> same as hooking power to one side of led, [same as blue wire], and nothing on the other side, no ground, no light


The negative lead of the cap would not be connected to ground - it would be connected to the "floating" lead of the LED.

It should work for a short time.

Frederick


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## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> The negative lead of the cap would not be connected to ground - it would be connected to the "floating" lead of the LED.
> 
> It should work for a short time.
> 
> Frederick


yes, you are right .
i guess i was thinking only of the decoder ground, and just forgot about the capacitor ground ...
i will blame this on a brain fart

pleeeeeze don't tell ED-RRR that I was *"wrong"*


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## Bwells

Hey, thanks guys, I am still learning and I understood a cap is a battery of sorts and does not need any wires to discharge, only charge. So would my idea work to reduce flickering in lights? I understand it is located after the decoder but ED-RR original post was to eliminate flicker. I also understand that a stay alive unit would run the whole decoder but this seems like a "work around" and does not address the underlying problem. I think I'm in over my head, again!!!


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## CTValleyRR

wvgca said:


> yes, you are right .
> 
> pleeeeeze don't tell ED-RRR that I was *"wrong"*


Please see my previous comment in this thread....


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## CTValleyRR

Bwells said:


> ...ED-RRR original post was to eliminate flicker.


Unfortunately, the circuit shown in ED's original post would eliminate all light.


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## Bwells

CTV, that would take care of any flicker. I would just cut the blue and save the cap!


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> CTV, that would take care of any flicker. I would just cut the blue and save the cap!



I just spent a few minutes on the breadboard, and the cap added in parallel works fine

I used an ordinary 3mm white led, and a 12v supply .. cap was added positive to the blue before resistor, negative to end of led ..

first test was 1k resistor, 100uf cap .. maybe a second and a half, fairly slow dim ..

thought the capacitor was physically too large, so:

second test was 1k resistor , 33uf cap, just under a second roughly ..

thought the led was too bright with a 1k resistor, so:

third test was 2.2k resistor, 33uf cap, about a second and a half, nice slow dimming, seemed to be the best of the three versions tried


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## Bwells

Nice test as you always do however that was with an LED. I would assume that an incandescent would drop much more quickly. Either bulb is fine so what I gather is that my original idea may work? If so, I can repost with a bunch of warnings and cautions, colored type along with brackets and caps and bold print and arrows. I just need to get my facts in order before making an a$$ out of myself. Thanks for the help Warren, I appreciate it.


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## time warp

Bwells said:


> Nice test as you always do however that was with an LED. I would assume that an incandescent would drop much more quickly. Either bulb is fine so what I gather is that my original idea may work? If so, I can repost with a bunch of warnings and cautions, colored type along with brackets and caps and bold print and arrows. I just need to get my facts in order before making an a$$ out of myself. Thanks for the help Warren, I appreciate it.


:lol_hitting:


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> Nice test as you always do however that was with an LED. I would assume that an incandescent would drop much more quickly. Either bulb is fine so what I gather is that my original idea may work? If so, I can repost with a bunch of warnings and cautions, colored type along with brackets and caps and bold print and arrows. I just need to get my facts in order before making an a$$ out of myself. Thanks for the help Warren, I appreciate it.


Yes, the 'slow dim' idea is valid for those that would like that effect .. and would also help reduce most 'flickering' problems ..you would need a cap on each lighted end of the loco ..wired in parallel, NOT series, and as far as using the cap with an small incandescent, you would have to consider current draw ...

In the physical tests that I did, the 1k resistor should be around 10ma draw, and with the 2.2k it should be around 5ma ...the grain of rice style I have seen noted were 16ma or more, and some of the larger grain of wheat style were 60 -70ma current draw ..

My personal opinion is that if you are going to have the loco apart, you may as well change over to led's, whatever 'colour' and style suits your application best 

The easiest way for you to decide would be to get some various resistors, leds, and caps , and try it yourself to see what values & dimming times will satisfy your personal taste


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## wvgca

for Bwells 
I actually took videos of these tests, here are the youtube links .. 

10uf, 1k





33uf,1k





33uf,2.2k


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## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> Project: (#2)
> "Not" all [DCC] "Sound" decoders come with a "Capacitor"..
> A "Capacitor" is used to prevent momentary "Sound Gaps" to the "Speaker" to provide adequate sound over "Temporary" power losses..
> 
> View attachment 222618
> 
> 
> I "Recommend" using a (x1) 330µF 25V "Capacitor"..
> The same capacitor that "Digitrax" uses and "Approves"..


Time to go back to finish up on the EE degree! The capacitor is only placed there to block DC from the speaker. It does NOTHING about any sound gaps. Here's your first lesson.

What do Capacitors do in a System with a Speaker?



ED-RRR said:


> I am "Not" posting any "Theoretical" information.


No, but sadly you have no idea why components are used, that is obvious by your "understanding" of their use.


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> If so, I can repost with a bunch of warnings and cautions, colored type along with brackets and caps and bold print and arrows. I just need to get my facts in order before making an a$$ out of myself.


That sounds perfect, lots of various brackets, bold and / or colored text, definitely need large print warnings, and arrows ..
I you get all that in one post, there is probably no need for irrelevant things like facts ...


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## Bwells

OKAY, here it is. I drew this up but still need final approval. I think it should work for what ED posted awhile back in post 1. The values stated are those from wvgca tests and the values he thought worked best. I'm not happy with the schematic but I don't know why. Something to do with the resistor placement but using two resistors seems overkill. Both LEDs will be sharing the resistor at the same time but only during the short "burnoff" period. Anyway, let me know if this is a go and ED may want to try it for his light flicker situation. I do like the slow dim feature though. Darn, I can't rotate it.


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## Bwells

wvgca said:


> That sounds perfect, lots of various brackets, bold and / or colored text, definitely need large print warnings, and arrows ..
> I you get all that in one post, there is probably no need for irrelevant things like facts ...


Good one, but I know it would take me a day to do all that worthless crap.


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## wvgca

on small suggestion on your schematic ...
you will have a led at each end of your loco, and
you will have a cap at each end of your loco,
you may as well have a resistor on each led at each end, more commonly done that way ..

i would suggest trying slightly different resistor and cap values, that way you can tailor the combination to what YOU prefer for appearance, led brightness, and 'slow dim' time .. the parts themselves are pretty cheap ..you may also want to consider using smd/smt components to reduce the size depending on how much room you have in your loco

If you are happy with this 'effect', then perhaps post a new thread on 'led slow dim', I don't know if there is any thing on this forum specifically noting this?


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## Bwells

Thanks Warren, I like your ideas. I will redraw the diagram with the changes you suggested. As far as the values go, I'm happy with yours and I don't plan on doing this anyway. I just want to help ED out with a design that will do what he wants and maybe others that are totally confused by this thread. I'm off to the drawing board.


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## wvgca

Bwells said:


> I just want to help ED out with a design that will do what he wants and maybe others.



perfect :thumbsup:


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## redman88

Some one pm me a message tomorrow and I will post the page number from Augusts module rail road mag. Had an article about this. Just read it this evening.


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## Bwells

No kidding, did it have a schematic?


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## redman88

Bwells said:


> No kidding, did it have a schematic?




Can't sleep so I looked it up. No schematic also no capacitors. Page 57 of August model railroader.


----------



## time warp

You must be like me ,redman. Most nights I'm up all hours, who knows why.


----------



## Bwells

Well this should do what ED is trying to explain. Hope he likes it and reports back after final installation. I have tried to rotate the pic but it always ends up on it's side.









Mod Edit: Rotate Picture


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks good to me now.


----------



## Bwells

Perfect, thanks. Will it work?


----------



## fcwilt

Bwells said:


> Perfect, thanks. Will it work?


If the goal is to have the lights stay on a short while after they are turned off (or lose power) - yes it will work.

Frederick


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The only issue I see is if the decoder will object to a capacitive load on the outputs. I don't know the answer to that, and for a fairly small cap, I suspect it's not an issue.


----------



## Bwells

fcwilt said:


> If the goal is to have the lights stay on a short while after they are turned off (or lose power) - yes it will work.
> 
> Frederick


Yes that is the goal as originally outlined in post #1. Strictly for lights and if there is a momentary lose of power, the engine will stutter but them lights won't.


----------



## Bwells

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The only issue I see is if the decoder will object to a capacitive load on the outputs. I don't know the answer to that, and for a fairly small cap, I suspect it's not an issue.


Do you think the decoder may interpret the capacitor as a high resistance short?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Don't know, it's an interesting question. Give it a try and see what happens.


----------



## redman88

I don't think the decoder will care you will just have a stored charge. The decoder switches ground.


----------



## wvgca

Bwells said:


> Do you think the decoder may interpret the capacitor as a high resistance short?


as there is no current limiting resistor in series on the blue supply line, the possibility is there when the function is enabled..

to reduce inrush current to two 33uf caps on power up, a 180 ohm resistor in series should be sufficient to reduce total current [charging two 33uf caps and lighting two leds at 10ma each] to less than 100ma total ...and the additional resistor should not affect led brightness ..

charge time of both caps 'should' be less than 25ms as a guess .


----------



## Bwells

It may care while charging/operating.


----------



## Bwells

Warren, are you thinking a 180Ω resistor just outside the decoder and before the first connection would eliminate all doubt?


----------



## wvgca

Bwells said:


> It may care while charging/operating.


during operation it should not matter, but on initial function selection it may._
most _DCC decoders are spec'd as being able to sink 100ma on each function lead, but I don't recall seeing any spec on what the supply [blue] can source ..


----------



## wvgca

Bwells said:


> Warren, are you thinking a 180Ω resistor just outside the decoder and before the first connection would eliminate all doubt?


might be a 'safe' addition, maybe revamp your schematic for a 200ohm series on the blue source, as you indicted above, and then you could re value the 2.2k down to 2k ..to keep total current draw the same as previous .. and retain the same brightness level output ..
this would be more than enough as I guess-timated total current draw for both function leads being enabled at the same time, but I don't think I could press both buttons in less than 25ms


----------



## Bwells

How about a diode instead of the 200 ohm resistor?


----------



## wvgca

Bwells said:


> How about a diode instead of the 200 ohm resistor?


a diode wouldn't slow the inrush current, it would just reduce the available voltage by 0.7V [assuming standard silicon diode]


----------



## Bwells

Okay, I don't know what inrush is, I keep picturing "backflow". Here is the new and improved version with the changes you mentioned. At this point, it is beyond me. This thing is going to need a circuit board! Shoot, it did it again. John, can I get your help, last time, I promise!


----------



## fcwilt

Bwells said:


> Okay, I don't know what inrush is, I keep picturing "backflow". Here is the new and improved version with the changes you mentioned. At this point, it is beyond me. This thing is going to need a circuit board! Shoot, it did it again. John, can I get your help, last time, I promise!
> View attachment 223969


Just out of curiosity it appears that you are concerned about maintaining power to the LEDs but not the decoder as a whole.

Why the focus on the LEDs?

Frederick


----------



## Bwells

fcwilt said:


> Just out of curiosity it appears that you are concerned about maintaining power to the LEDs but not the decoder as a whole.
> 
> Why the focus on the LEDs?
> 
> Frederick


I don't have a clue but that was the OP's thought and I figured it would be a piece of cake to correct his drawing and be interesting to draw it up. For me, the flicker or loose of power has never happened, luckily.


----------



## fcwilt

Bwells said:


> I don't have a clue but that was the OP's thought and I figured it would be a piece of cake to correct his drawing and be interesting to draw it up. For me, the flicker or loose of power has never happened, luckily.


Thank you.

The OP has reasons that are beyond the grasp of mere mortals.

Frederick


----------



## Bwells

Yup!!


----------



## ED-RRR

*Warning: --> Individuals Are Posting Incorrect "Technical Information"..*

Presently there are "Over" 1,200 "Re-Read's" in this "Thread".. 

I have allowed (x1) day for everyone to post their own thoughts..
Like in "Poker" I wanted to see your cards "First"..

Just like clockwork, the same "Hecklers" do their personal attacks against me [ED-RRR]..

There are also postings from individuals stating their unproven "Technical Information".. (Fiction).. 
Most of these "Technical Information" state that these (x2) projects will not "Function Correctly"..

*[wvgca]*


wvgca said:


> ED-RRR
> in your posted image of *the capacitor in series to lights, it will act as a blocker, lights won't work* .. period
> in your posted image of the capacitor in series to the speaker, all it will do is attenuate low frequencies ...
> to function as an additional power reserve, capacitors need to be wired in parallel, not series
> trust me, the principles are basically grade six shop class stuff ..


*[johnfl68]*


johnfl68 said:


> That is a simple 1st Order *High Pass Filter.*
> All it is going to do is reduce the lower (bass) frequencies going to the speaker, which most small speakers don't do well with anyway.
> It's *not going to do anything to keep the sound from cutting out *if power to the decoder is momentarily lost.


*[Mark VerMurlen]*


Mark VerMurlen said:


> They put the capacitor there for a different reason. As stated above, *it helps filter out low frequency tones. *
> That's probably why they do it. It won't do anything to keep the audio working during a power outage.
> As also pointed out, *the capacitor in series with the LEDs doesn't work either.*
> Every once in a while you have a good idea to share, but this isn't one of them.
> Mark


*[wvgca]*


wvgca said:


> Nope, digitrax and soundtraxx are fine .they work as intended
> but they don't place the cap between the decoder and speaker in series as you have drawn. in post #1.
> that *fact of yours is just wrong, nor does anyone place a capacitor in series to the lights [front / rear / accessory]*
> in your "completely wrong diagram', the capacitor stores NO voltage, AC DC or theoretical ... *it's a FILTER as you have drawn it *


*[johnfl68]*


johnfl68 said:


> Not that EDD-RR will listen, but for others who maybe don't understand.
> *The Capacitor has nothing directly to do with the lights, it just shares the same Function Common (Blue) *


*[CTValleyRR]*


CTValleyRR said:


> All I can say is that if all 3 of you (ED-RRR, TimeWarp, and wvgca) offered to install a sound decoder and capacitor in one of my locos,
> *the only person I WOULDN'T let touch it is you, ED.*


*[CTValleyRR]*


CTValleyRR said:


> *I don't do sound, *so can't really offer an opinion as to various decoders, .............


*[CTValleyRR]*


CTValleyRR said:


> Unfortunately, the circuit shown in ED's *original post would eliminate all light.*


*Even [gunrunnerjohn]*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> Time to go back to finish up on the EE degree! The capacitor is only placed there to block DC from the speaker.
> It does *NOTHING about any sound gaps. * Here's your first lesson.


*[Bwells] --> Posting #61*


Bwells said:


> Well this should do what ED is trying to explain.
> Hope he likes it and reports back after final installation.











*[gunrunnerjohn] --> Posting #62*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> *Looks good to me now.*


= Connecting a "Capacitor" in "Parallel" to a "Speaker" ??????
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*How A --> Speaker Capacitor Actually Functions..*

It Looks like that it is time for me *[Ed-RRR] *to "Teach" some of the "Electrical Enginners in this "Forum" how *[DCC]* actually functions !! 

There are uses for a speaker "Crossover" capacitor..
Crossover frequency (Crossover Point aka) filter is the point which low frequency information on any speakers set to small
will get routed to the subwoofer and the high frequency information to the speakers..

Some newer [DCC] sound decoders use energy storage capacitors ("Polarized") 
and not as a bandpass filter or DC blocking capacitor, which would require a "Non Polarized" capacitor..

--> Crossover capacitors are "Bi-Polar".. (Like older DSD SoundTraxx decoders using a small value 33uF "Bi-Polar Capacitor".. 
--> Theses (x2) projects are using "Polarized" (stay alive capacitors)..

(#1) = Lighting.. (Keep Alive)..
(#2) = Sound.. (Keep Alive)..

*Are you all forgetting that I "Only" do "Copy-N-Paste" with (100%) "Technical Facts" **??*
Unlike many others, I am here to "Help" beginners in this hobby..

*My Proof: #1A (100%) --> Lighting*
SoundTraxx: ECO-100 with an "Optional" 220uF capacitor..









*My Proof: #1B (100%) --> Lighting*
TCS: WOW101 with an "Optional" capacitor for "Aux." lighting.. (Brown and Pink Wires)..









*My Proof: #2A (100%) --> Sound*
Digitrax: [DCC] SDH164 sound decoder
- Polarized 330uF capacitor (+) Blue and (-) Black
- Polarized speakers (+) Grey and (-) Yellow









*My Proof: #2B (100%) --> Sound*
TCS: [DCC] WOW101 "Steam" sound decoder
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/WOWSound/index.php









......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

Some of those images you just posted show the correct connection for a "keep alive" cap.

Your drawing with the cap in series with the LEDs is not the same and will not work.


A cap in series with a speaker will not maintain sound during a momentary power loss.


And all caps store energy.

Frederick


----------



## Mark R.

Don't matter how much you back-pedal Ed - the picture in post number 1 you created with the capacitor on the LEDs is WRONG - it won't work.

In the mean time, many folks have stepped up to point out that fact and explain WHY it's wrong. It then proceeded (very civilized) to determine HOW to do it correctly WITH proof and even videos. It was further extended upon to even include a nicely drawn diagram.

That is how a forum works.

Then you come barging back in trying to prove that we are all still wrong, don't have facts, don't have proof and then try to shove more copy-n-paste down our throats .... which, by the way further prove your post number 1 is incorrect. LOOK at the wiring in your first post - it is NOT the same as the multitude of diagrams you just pasted again. The negative side of the capacitor DOES NOT go to the negative side of the LEDs - it goes to the common negative of the decoders, NOT the function output.

Your copy-n-paste techniques are outstanding, and they ARE 100% correct - unfortunately, you don't understand what you are copy-n-pasting as proof by your home made illustration in post 1. If you are going to post your OWN diagrams, I would strongly suggest you at least try them yourself based on what you draw to verify they do in fact work before posting them - save yourself a lot of head-aches. If your intent here is only to help beginners, bench testing your diagrams is even more important to make sure it works as intended. If a beginner read your first post and headed to the bench to build it, he is going to be mighty frustrated that his lights don't work, and not understand why. 

Mark.


----------



## wvgca

Bwells said:


> Okay, I don't know what inrush is, I keep picturing "backflow". Here is the new and improved version with the changes you mentioned. At this point, it is beyond me. This thing is going to need a circuit board! Shoot, it did it again. John, can I get your help, last time, I promise!
> View attachment 223969



the schematic looks wonderful ...
inrush is simply a term for the momentary maximum start up current draw by a device .. in this case the time of high draw current is around 25ms ...and should be limited to the rating for the decoder maximum function capability ..
basically similar to any ordinary electric motor that has two different current ratings, one for start, and another for run ..


----------



## Bwells

wvgca said:


> the schematic looks wonderful ...
> inrush is simply a term for the momentary maximum start up current draw by a device .. in this case the time of high draw current is around 25ms ...and should be limited to the rating for the decoder maximum function capability ..
> basically similar to any ordinary electric motor that has two different current ratings, one for start, and another for run ..


I now understand, thanks and good explanation.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## ED-RRR

*Warning #1.. Information Given From [fcwilt]..*

*Warning: (#1)*
Information Given From *[fcwilt]*..



fcwilt said:


> ED-RRR,
> Some of those images you just posted show the correct connection for a "keep alive" cap.
> A cap in series with a speaker* will not maintain sound during a momentary power loss.*


*Question: (#1)*
Are you a [DCC] NMRA "Electrical Engineer" ??

*Question: (#2)*
Why are my [ED-RR] actual (100% True) "Previous Posted Facts, "Totally" --> False ?? 
--> Digitrax = (Actual Image)..
--> SoundTraxx = (Actual Image)..

*Fact:*
So *[fcwilt]* is "Claiming" that "All" the information from "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" is totally *"False"*..

......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Warning #2.. Information Given From [Mark R.]..*

*Warning: (#2)*
Information Given From *[Mark R.]..*



Mark R. said:


> Don't matter how much you back-pedal Ed - the picture in post number 1 you created with the capacitor on the LEDs is WRONG - it won't work.


*Question: (#1)*
Are you a [DCC] NMRA "Electrical Engineer" ??

*Question: (#2)*
Why are my [ED-RR] actual "Previous Posted Facts, "Totally" --> False ?? 
--> Digitrax = (Actual Image)..
--> SoundTraxx = (Actual Image)..

*Fact:*
So *[Mark R.]* is "Claiming" that "All" the information from "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" is totally *"False"*..

......


----------



## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> ..




Are you an electrical engineer?


Can you read what other are writing?


Can you read what you are writing?


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[Bwells] --> Posting #61*
> View attachment 223945
> 
> *[gunrunnerjohn] --> Posting #62*
> = Connecting a "Capacitor" in "Parallel" to a "Speaker" ??????
> ......



add me to the 'blind mice' lists ...
I see no "Speaker" in Bwells schematic diagram ..:dunno:


----------



## redman88

wvgca said:


> add me to the 'blind mice' lists ...
> I see no "Speaker" in Bwells schematic diagram ..:dunno:




That's why I asked if he can read.


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> There are also postings from individuals stating their unproven "Technical Information".. (Fiction)..
> Most of these "Technical Information" state that these (x2) projects will not "Function Correctly"..
> ......


 Okay, feel free to prove all us morons and blind mice wrong .
NOT by a "cut'n'paste" marathon ...

but by actually building exactly what you posted in your first post ... an extra cap in *series* with the speaker, and an extra cap in *series* with the function power ..

the version suggested by Bwells has been shown to work, with schematics and videos ... *yours hasn't*


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#2)*
> Why are my [ED-RR] actual "Previous Posted Facts, "Totally" --> False ??
> --> Digitrax = (Actual Image)..
> --> SoundTraxx = (Actual Image)..
> ......


ED-RRR, 
the _complete images_ from Digitraxx and Soundtraxx are correct..

however [and I am typing s_l_o_w_l_y so that you can follow this]

*Your* images, noted as "Previous Posted Facts" in post #1 are 
1] technically incorrect
2] useless


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> *Warning: (#2)*
> Information Given From *[Mark R.]..*
> 
> 
> 
> *Question: (#1)*
> Are you a [DCC] NMRA "Electrical Engineer" ??
> 
> *Question: (#2)*
> Why are my [ED-RR] actual "Previous Posted Facts, "Totally" --> False ??
> --> Digitrax = (Actual Image)..
> --> SoundTraxx = (Actual Image)..
> 
> *Fact:*
> So *[Mark R.]* is "Claiming" that "All" the information from "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" is totally *"False"*..
> 
> ......


Dammit Ed - read what the hell I posted !!! I said what you copy and pasted is FINE. What YOU posted in the very first post is WRONG (diagram).

Geeze, just how thick is your skull ?

Also, you don't have to be an NMRA Electrical Engineer (that would be a pointless title anyway) to know this stuff. It's basic electronics of which you keep proving over and over you yourself do not understand. If you want to continue your copy-n-paste marathon, go right ahead, but don't post your own creations unless YOU have tested them and proved them to work.

Mark.


----------



## johnfl68

LOL

Well, here is some more Keep Alive/Current Keeper/Stay Alive/Whatever you want to call it Information, from people that ED-RRR will probably also call wackos.


From *Mark Gurries*:
Mark Gurries is a professional Electrical Engineer (since 1984) and lives in San Jose, California (Silicon Valley). His experience in "Mixed Signal" (Digital and Analog) circuit design with expertise in Power Supply and Power Management design. This background directly applies to DCC technology. 

Keep Alive Compatibility
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility




From *Marcus Ammann*:
I've been back into model railways since 1989. As a kid I had Marklin. I've been an Electrician all my working life with 30 years at Qantas as an Aircraft Electrician in 2 stints and fixing motor cars for 15 years in between the 2 Qantas stints. I retired from Qantas in April 2012, aged 62 and am now really enjoying model railways. I have been consumed by DCC since connecting NCE DCC to my layout in 2003 with all the options and features that DCC brings to operating, as I build my walk around Double Deck model railway Empire.

Loco Stay Alive
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *Warning: (#1)*
> Information Given From *[fcwilt]*..
> 
> 
> 
> *Question: (#1)*
> Are you a [DCC] NMRA "Electrical Engineer" ??
> 
> *Question: (#2)*
> Why are my [ED-RR] actual (100% True) "Previous Posted Facts, "Totally" --> False ??
> --> Digitrax = (Actual Image)..
> --> SoundTraxx = (Actual Image)..
> 
> *Fact:*
> So *[fcwilt]* is "Claiming" that "All" the information from "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" is totally *"False"*..
> 
> ......


We are not talking about anyone but you and...

- your drawing of the cap in series with the LEDs

- your claim that a cap in series with a speaker will continue the audio during a short term power loss.


Yes I was trained as a digital circuit designer and that included eight years of basic education in all fields of electronics. 

I had my own R&D company for many years.

I would be willing to bet that I've forgotten more about this stuff then you have ever known.

It's clear from your remarks that you don't understand caps, how they work and how they are used.

The 3rd party diagrams you posted ARE correct.

Your diagram is WRONG. You cannot even see how it is wrong.

Your understanding of how caps work is wrong.

So take a word of friendly advice and stop digging yourself deeper into your already huge hole.

Frederick


----------



## Mark R.

Cutting and pasting from a manufacturers site is also no guarantee it's correct. I know more than a few online manuals that have either out of date or incorrect information in them that has never been corrected. Just because it's on the inter-webs, doesn't ALWAYS mean it's true ....

Ed will love the Mark Gurries cut-n-paste .... he is a God to Ed.

Mark.


----------



## wvgca

Mark R. said:


> If you want to continue your copy-n-paste marathon, go right ahead, but don't post your own creations unless YOU have tested them and proved them to work.
> 
> Mark.


ya right, i can see that happening :laugh:

i picked a poor day to try and quit smoking .. epic fail :smokin:

grj, maybe you can change my user title from dispatcher to BlindMouse#42 , I think I will be okay within that company


----------



## ED-RRR

I have "Never" acclaimed to be a *[DCC]* electrical engineer..
That is why I use *"Copy-N-Paste"* to find required (100% Fact) "Information" to help *"Beginners"..*

*For Beginners:*
You have a choice of (x2) different "Options".. (Pick One)..

*(#1) = (100%) Proof*
Look "Back" at my *[ED-RR]* previous postings --> "Actual Posting" (100%) proof "Tested Manufactured" postings,
from "Manufactured" [DCC] decoders..
- Lighting 
- Sound

*--> OR <--*

*(#2) = (Un - Proven) Proof*
Look "Back" from "Other" previous postings --> "Actual Posting" with "Un-Proven" --> "Facts"..

*Conclusion:*
The choice is yours to decide..
Between (#1) = (100%) Proof
- OR -
(#2) = (Un - Proven) Proof
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Conclusion:*
> The choice is yours to decide..
> Between (#1) = (100%) Proof
> - OR -
> (#2) = (Un - Proven) Proof
> ......


Now you are finally starting to make sense, 
So we have a choice between:
1] Bwells implementation of the LED circuit, or
2] Your post#1 with your implementation of a series LED circuit..

perfect! couldn't ask for better 
thanks ED-RRR


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> That is why I use *"Copy-N-Paste"* to find required (100% Fact) "Information" to help *"Beginners"..*


I see you are not even going to address the issue of your incorrect drawing with the cap in series with the LEDs and acknowledge you got it wrong.

How can you help "beginners" when you don't understand what you are "cutting and pasting"?

The diagram you drew is wrong, won't work and would NOT be of any help to a beginner.

It would only confuse them.


So perhaps you should post less and study more and learn from those of us who actually understand this stuff.


Frederick


----------



## Lemonhawk

The capacitor in series with the speaker is necessary to block the DC content the amplifier puts out. While this could be done with a much smaller capacitor, there is a secondary effect in that to get low frequency response you need a large capacitor. That was one of the big problems the first transistor HiFi amplifiers had to overcome. Back then (50's-60's) large capacitors were expensive due to the main use was with higher voltage tube driven equipment and low voltage high capacitance was not easy to find.


----------



## johnfl68

"It's a fact..."


----------



## time warp

OK #1 The NMRA exists to specify conformance standards for equipment compatibility. They don't have NMRA DCC electrical engineers. 
#2 DCC is a name, the technology is Carrier Control. Or Carrier Wave Control. The D is for Digital. Formerly Command Control.
#3 Again, the lighting control circuit is a DC circuit, with switching provided through the decoder board. The "DCC" influences the DC output to the lighting circuit. The same thing is easily accomplished on a DC control system with a pair of diodes.
#4 A DISC Capacitor is not polarity sensitive. An Electrolytic, like a super cap, is polarity sensitive ( polarized?:dunno. 
#5 Any capacitor resists change, by quickly charging and discharging, in an electrical circuit ( filtering). It is not a resistor. The storage aspect is an additional benefit, caps are not batteries.


----------



## Tom17

My Proof: #1A (100%) --> Lighting

Tsunami 220µF Replacement Capacitor
810128	$0.75
This 220µF capacitor helps keep power to the decoder during momentary power losses. For use with decoders that use an external capacitor assembly, such as the TSU-1000.
It is for the decoder not for just lighting.
The ECO-100 includes an optional 220µF, 25V capacitor or may be used with a SoundTraxx CurrentKeeper to maintain performance during momentary power losses.

My Proof: #1B (100%) --> Lighting
the capacitor in the wiring diagram is connected to the Keep-Alive wires, black w/white Stripe (-) and blue (+), It is for the decoder not for just lighting again.


----------



## Bwells

Tom17: I gotta ask, how do you do the symbol for micro? Is it numlok on alt+230? I have a windows based PC. Thanks, Brian


----------



## johnfl68

Bwells:

It's ALT+0181 for the µ symbol.


----------



## Tom17

I do have the SHD166D install in an SD38 and has the 330µ
capacitor and when I turn off the power to the track it is on the sound stop right away.



Bwells said:


> Tom17: I gotta ask, how do you do the symbol for micro? Is it numlok on alt+230? I have a windows based PC. Thanks, Brian


I copy and paste.



johnfl68 said:


> Bwells:
> 
> It's ALT+0181 for the µ symbol.


Need to write that down.


----------



## Bwells

╡ ╡ I don't know john, that is what I get. numlock on right?


----------



## time warp

It is my opinion that this thread should be edited. The contradictory and misleading statements and information contained here can only serve to confuse and mislead the unknowing and uninformed on this forum.
Not to mention the fact that it sets a bad example, particularly to new members, because of the O.P. and his "fist fight" format. 
And No, I am not kidding


----------



## Bwells

µ By George I think I've got it! That was alt+230.


----------



## Bwells

I agree timewarp however not edited but deleted in it's entirety and let ED start a new one with the correct information provided by many.


----------



## johnfl68

Yes, with NumLock on - you hold down the ALT key, and keep it held down while entering on the number pad (zero) (one) (eight) (one) and then release the ALT key.

That's what has always worked for me in Windows. Hmmm?


Edit:

Yes, that is what Character Map in Windows says to use as well:


----------



## Bwells

µ shoot it worked, I didn't do the zero the first time. alt+230 works also µ. Guess there is more ways than one to skin a cat!


----------



## Tom17

time warp said:


> It is my opinion that this thread should be edited. The contradictory and misleading statements and information contained here can only serve to confuse and mislead the unknowing and uninformed on this forum.
> Not to mention the fact that it sets a bad example, particularly to new members, because of the O.P. and his "fist fight" format.
> And No, I am not kidding



I agree too.


----------



## Mark R.

Bwells said:


> I agree timewarp however not edited but deleted in it's entirety and let ED start a new one with the correct information provided by many.


There is actually some good information in this thread from those who took the task to hand and came up with a viable option for a small amount of keep alive on the LED in addition to featuring a headlight dim out .... provided with 100% proof that it works.

Sort through the mess and get rid of all the useless posts and you would end up with a pretty decent topic about three pages long. But, if I'm not mistaken, you can't delete the first post in a thread without closing the entire thread. Too bad, because that's where the biggest error lies.

Mark.


----------



## time warp

The OP should either be confined to Union station or run off. It's gotten to the point that we almost can't have a DCC forum any more.


----------



## Bwells

Mark, the problem I see with deleting some posts would be like randomly ripping pages out of a book and then expect someone to be able to read it. It's all or none. You are right, there is good info in here from people trying to explain things so as long as I, hopefully others, learned, it is good. It is peaceful here until the hurricane hits, I just hunker down and wait for the storm to pass. It will be back.


----------



## redman88

A mod could go in and add a bold highlighted note to the first post.


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> I have "Never" acclaimed to be a *[DCC]* electrical engineer..
> That is why I use *"Copy-N-Paste"* to find required (100% Fact) "Information" to help *"Beginners"..*


Ok, fine. Let's get to the bottom of this ....

Ed - WHERE did you copy and paste the two pictures in your FIRST post from ?

Seeing as how you only use copy and paste to post 100% FACT information, then there is a site out there that needs to be informed / corrected. Where did you copy and paste those pictures from Ed ? C'mon, spill the beans.

As for you claiming everything in this thread is pure speculation and that copy-n-paste is the only way to post 100% fact .... if I copied and pasted your first post in this thread to another forum, should I assume it's 100% fact ? .... when in fact it's not ! You really need a reality check my friend .... 

Mark.


----------



## Mark R.

redman88 said:


> A mod could go in and add a bold highlighted note to the first post.


Would also need to add a bunch of colors, quotation marks, brackets, etc. in order for it to be official ....

Mark.


----------



## teledoc

*Infractions*

For those of you trying keep this thread Civil, and informative, I have given the OP a warning, to straighten his act out. If he keeps it up, he will be gone, and not by who you may think!!!

Keep it civil, and informative, and continue.

Teledoc


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> It Looks like that it is time for me *[Ed-RRR] *to "Teach" some of the "Electrical Enginners in this "Forum" how *[DCC]* actually functions !!


If only you were knowledgeable enough to actually do so.



> Some newer [DCC] sound decoders use energy storage capacitors ("Polarized") and not as a bandpass filter or DC blocking capacitor, which would require a "Non Polarized" capacitor..


They may actually use an energy storage capacitor, but not in series with the speaker, it would be on the DC power supply. Also, the reason for using the capacitor in series with the speaker is to block the DC offset, and it's quite common to see a standard polarized capacitor there as it'll never see a bi-polar voltage. Any single-ended amplifier stage that is feed from a unipolar power supply will usually require a DC blocking capacitor in the speaker circuit. Since the signal can't go the opposite polarity, the polar capacitor works fine for this application. I'll give you one small point, the unipolar cap would work equally well blocking the DC, it's just not required.



> Unlike many others, I am here to "Help" beginners in this hobby..


With all the errors and mis-statements, you're not reaching that goal.

FYI, here is a typical use of a DC blocking capacitor with a speaker, note the polarity markings. This is one of tons of examples I could copy-n-paste from the Internet, which I know is where you like to get your information.












ED-RRR said:


> *[gunrunnerjohn] --> Posting #62*
> 
> = Connecting a "Capacitor" in "Parallel" to a "Speaker" ??????
> ......


Once again, a swing and a miss! Post #62, if you care to check, concerns correcting the orientation of a drawing that rotated. As far as the contents of the drawing, it was showing LED wiring with caps to eliminate flicker. I don't see any speakers represented in the drawing, can you point them out to me?


----------



## wvgca

Bwells ..
I posted your suggested implementation for 'slow dim' led lighting , and your schematic to a new thread ..
I hope that's okay with you??


----------



## Bwells

Sure, that's fine. You played the major role, I was simply the draftsman, and not the best at it.
I'm not sure if the slow dim is prototypical. I assume newer locos have a vast array of LEDS that go out immediately but possibly older locos used a filament that would slowly cool down. I think it looks good.
One question, why does it dim like that? I think about my CDU and I understood it was to release all it's stored energy in a blast as if spring loaded. I would suspect the cap in the slow dim would actually go from 12 to 6 volts rapidly and then possibly dim to 3 and the LED would go out.:dunno:


----------



## fcwilt

Hi,

You might find this interesting:

http://mustcalculate.com/electronics/capacitorchargeanddischarge.php

If you put, say a 12 VDC constant voltage source in place of the cap it's easy to calculate the current flow out of the source through the resistor and LED, if you know the resistance and the forward voltage drop of the LED.

However the cap, unlike the constant voltage source, begins to discharge as soon as the current begins to flow.

Frederick


----------



## time warp

Hey, W. No one will answer the door. I tried.


----------



## Bwells

I think it's finally dried out enough for him to harvest the Lima Beans on the north forty. Could be the reason he didn't answer. Here is a vid of him on his daily driver.


----------



## time warp

Someone WILL die on that tractor! WOW!
I had a friend who stretched the frame on an early Farmall F 20 and put a Chrysler 318 with a 727 on it! 
Actually I envision the inner sanctum as Keep out signs, drawn drapes and " Helga! Bring me my soup!":laugh:


----------



## Lemonhawk

:hah:That must be w's tractor. The road even had snow poles on it to mark his driveway!


----------



## Bwells

I thought suicide knobs were illegal! He sure used his.


----------



## wvgca

Bwells said:


> I thought suicide knobs were illegal! He sure used his.


up here spinner knobs are a no-no if you're on the highways...
but they sure are handy, I cut 8 acres of grass out at the farm yard today, JD 510 with a seven foot finishing mower ..


----------



## CTValleyRR

Funny how when a certain member gets a warning to cease and desist his ludicrous attempts to avoid admitting an error and to prove that he is the most valuable forum member, the most active thread in the forum suddenly dries up!


----------



## time warp

Yeah, sort of like when you break up a bar fight!


----------



## wvgca

Mark R. said:


> Ed - WHERE did you copy and paste the two pictures in your FIRST post from ?


If it matters, I tried the Google Image search, and the only place that those two exact images show up is only on this forum ... It took close to a half hour search by Google to get that result ,,,,,

I zoomed in on those two , and they appear to be roughly edited ..

I can only assume that they were not a 'complete' paste from another site, and were created / edited by the OP ..


----------



## time warp

I think he throws stuff out there that he has " bent " a little hoping someone will say" Gee, I didn't know that". 

Good chance he's going to descend into our midst again with yet another DCC "operations " thread.


----------



## fcwilt

time warp said:


> Good chance he's going to descend into our midst again with yet another DCC "operations " thread.


I hope so - his posts are very... educational.

Frederick


----------



## Mark R.

wvgca said:


> If it matters, I tried the Google Image search, and the only place that those two exact images show up is only on this forum ... It took close to a half hour search by Google to get that result ,,,,,
> 
> I zoomed in on those two , and they appear to be roughly edited ..
> 
> I can only assume that they were not a 'complete' paste from another site, and were created / edited by the OP ..


I was positive they were created by him and not copy and pasted from anywhere - I just wanted to see if he would own up to it ....

Mark.


----------



## wvgca

Mark R. said:


> I was positive they were created by him and not copy and pasted from anywhere - I just wanted to see if he would own up to it ....
> 
> Mark.


From what I have noticed, he totally avoids any mention of those two images in his first post, and concentrates on the 'correctness' of the images from Digitrax and Soundtraxx


----------



## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> From what I have noticed, he totally avoids any mention of those two images in his first post, and concentrates on the 'correctness' of the images from Digitrax and Soundtraxx


Indeed.

How many times did I ask him to focus on that and what was the result... <crickets>.

Frederick


----------



## Bwells

I strive to see the good in everyone and it is usually there. Although I doubt I will have a Sunday barbecue with him, he probably has some great points and possibly fun to be around. After all, we are all beating our way through life the best we can. I just wonder how he made it to retirement age without someone lighting his face on fire and putting it out with a baseball bat. I feel that building F15's from scratch in your garage can can take a toll. I see a fifth chance as a possibility.


----------



## redman88

wvgca said:


> From what I have noticed, he totally avoids any mention of those two images in his first post, and concentrates on the 'correctness' of the images from Digitrax and Soundtraxx




He did admit he edited the picture. 



ED-RRR said:


> Posting: (#1)
> 
> Lighting any [DCC] decoder..
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 223082
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posting: (#12)
> 
> To prove to [wvgca] that SoundTraxx had an option to add a capacitor to the "Lighting"..
> 
> Here is the "Actual" picture with all the required wire connections..
> 
> My previous pictures were to simplify wiring..
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 223090
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Too bad it was "simplified" into not working.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Bwells said:


> I strive to see the good in everyone and it is usually there. Although I doubt I will have a Sunday barbecue with him, he probably has some great points and possibly fun to be around. After all, we are all beating our way through life the best we can. I just wonder how he made it to retirement age without someone lighting his face on fire and putting it out with a baseball bat. I feel that building F15's from scratch in your garage can can take a toll. I see a fifth chance as a possibility.


He's probably fine in person, and was quite civil in his first posts, if you go back and look at them. 

I will say, though, that where I work (General Dynamics Electric Boat), he would have been fired after a month if he'd brought the same attitude to work that he displays here. We have a robust method for checking each other's work and quickly identifying and correcting errors. People who can't admit to having made a mistake don't last long. 

And he would have to follow our style manual when writing. Half of his problem is that his posts are so hard to follow because of his unconventional style. I'd blame Canada, except that the other Canadians here don't seem to have any trouble with accepted conventions.

My bet would be that he's turned to his hobby, and these forums, to try to gain a level of recognition that he perhaps feels he was denied in his professional career. He reacts negatively when things don't go exactly as he wants them to.


----------



## wvgca

it's too bad that ED-RRR didn't just say on the first page 'oops, my simplified wiring diagrams needs some work'
It went from being stated that it would work on "all' decoders, to not working on "any", but that inspired some quite 'interesting' , and possibly useful posts ...
Ok, I'll admit to being curious about his next thread , and the replies after ..


----------



## time warp

Well, when we were kids we knew better than to act like that, and I know better now.
I'm all about understanding - that there are self absorbed , misbehaving people out there.


----------



## CTValleyRR

wvgca said:


> it's too bad that ED-RRR didn't just say on the first page 'oops, my simplified wiring diagrams needs some work'
> It went from being stated that it would work on "all' decoders, to not working on "any", but that inspired some quite 'interesting' , and possibly useful posts ...


That's the part I don't understand -- the refusal to accept any possibility of error, any potential for fallibility, or any possible improvements or alternatives to anything he suggests.

There are two kinds of people out there -- those who will admit to a mistake, and liars.


----------



## ED-RRR

*(#1) --> Adding A "Speaker" Capacitor.. (Only Temporarily Stay Alive)..*

*[gunrunnerjohn] Posting #144*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> Too bad it was "simplified" into *not working.*


--> What is with the posted "Happy Face"..  .. from *[gunrunnerjohn]* .. (Why ??)..

*There are:*
- Hecklers personally attacking me..
- Postings from individuals that have "No" [DCC] "Experience"..
- Individuals that doubt my posted pictures..
- Individuals posting "Incorrect" information.. (Their Own Theory).. 
- Individuals posting (100%) "Correct" information.. (Actual Proven Facts).. 

*Question: *
How am I able to "Identify" what is the difference between ??
- Hecklers
- No Actual [DCC] Experience
- Their Own Theory
- Actual (100%) "Correct" posted information

*Special Note:*
I have "Not" edited or altered any of these pictures..

*[DCC] "Sound Decoders"*
When it comes to [DCC] "Sound", there are totally (x2) different types of "Usages"..
- Crossover capacitor are *"Non-Polarized"*".. (Only For Sound Quality Improvement).. (Old SoundTraxx [DCC] decoder - 33uF Capacitor).. 
- Stay Alive capacitor are *"Polarized".*. (220uF -OR- 330uF Capacitor)..
- All capacitors are connected in "Series"..

*Example: (#1)*
Digitrax:
Sound Decoder: SFX064D
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB727/sfx064d-sound-decoder-installation-instructions/
(KB727: SFX064D Sound Decoder Installation Instructions)









*Example: (#2)*
Digitrax:
Sound Decoder: SDH164D SoundFX
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB998/sdh164-with-two-sp26158b-rectangular-speakers/
(KB998: SDH164 with two SP26158B Rectangular Speakers).. "Polarized"..
Note: The "Blue" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire..









*Example: (#3)*
SoundTraxx:
Sound Decoder: "No" Technical Information..
Actual picture shown.. (P/N 826102).. 
This capacitor used = "Polarized"
Note: The "Red" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire "Polarized" capacitor for a "Stay Alive Capacitor"..









*Example: (#4)*
TCS: 
Sound Decoder: WOW101 "Steam" 
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/WOWSound/index.php
(Keep your sounds going even over troublesome rails).. "Polarized"..
Note: The "Blue" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire..








......


----------



## CTValleyRR

Sigh. You just don't get it, do you?

Instead of "hecklers personally attacking me", why don't you try "fellow modelers trying to help me out"?

At least, try actually reading what we post before spewing your "facts" (notice the *CORRECT* use of quotation marks to indicate use of the word in a non-literal sense, to denote what you THINK instead of what is accurate).

And BTW, could you possibly provide YOUR definition of _parallel_ and _series_ as they apply to the physics of electricity in YOUR universe? That might give the rest of us a frame of reference when we reply.


----------



## ED-RRR

*(#2) --> Adding A "Speaker" Capacitor.. (Only Temporarily Stay Alive)..*

*Warning: #1*
Many [DCC] manufactures "No" longer use "Correctly" marked (+) and (-) "Speaker Terminals"..









*Warning: #2*
SoundTraxx [DCC] decoders now have (x2) purple wires (No Polarity) going to the "Speaker"..
There is (x1) "Purple" wire = (+) to the "Speaker"..
There is (x1) "Purple" wire = (-) to the "Speaker"..









*Warning: #3*
For the "Speaker Capacitor" to operate (100%) correctly, it must be "Correctly" connected.. (Correct Speaker Polarity Required)..









*Warning: #4*
Now testing for "Correct" speaker polarity..
- Both the (x2) speaker wires must "Removed" from the [DCC] sound decoder..
- Not "Removing" the (x2) speaker wires from the [DCC] sound decoder, could/will "Destroy" the [DCC] sound decoder..
Instructions:
- Connect a 9.0 V-DC battery, with quick "On" and "Off" connections to the (x2) speaker terminals.. 
- "Correct" speaker terminal connections will have the "Speaker" pushing "Out".. -->
- "In-Correct" speaker terminal connections will have the "Speaker" pushing "In".. <--
- Use a permanent marker and mark the (x2) "Correct" speaker terminal polarity’s..

















*Assembly Procedure:*
Correctly add a "Speaker" --> "Capacitor".. 
- Polarized (+) and (-) terminals.. (Stay Alive)..
- 330uF 
- 25V








......


----------



## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> *Warning: #1*
> Many [DCC] manufactures "No" longer use "Correctly" marked (+) and (-) "Speaker Terminals"..
> 
> View attachment 225458
> 
> 
> *Warning: #2*
> SoundTraxx [DCC] decoders now have (x2) purple wires (No Polarity) going to the "Speaker"..
> There is (x1) "Purple" wire = (+) to the "Speaker"..
> There is (x1) "Purple" wire = (-) to the "Speaker"..
> 
> View attachment 225466


Speaker polarity only maters when you have a sound chamber.
if your speaker doesn't have a dedicated sound chamber you can drive it either way.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Going "Off" Subject..*



redman88 said:


> Speaker polarity only maters when you have a *sound chamber.*
> if your speaker doesn't have a dedicated *sound chamber* you can drive it either way.


*[redman88] (#1)*
Please realize that this has "Nothing" to do with a "Sound Chamber" for a speaker "Enclosure"..

*[redman88] (#2)*
Please realize that I am "Only" talking about
--> Connecting a "Stay Alive Capacitor" that are "Polarized".. (220uF -OR- 330uF ) to a "Speaker"..
.......


----------



## redman88

okay so i looked up some info. and you are wrong again.

http://www.bcae1.com/capspkr.htm



> Making the Connection:
> For a 6dB/octave high pass crossover you simply connect the capacitor in series with one of the speaker connections (it doesn't matter whether it's the positive or the negative). There should be no positive or negative markings on the capacitor. If there are, you have a polarized capacitor and it will probably fail (which could cause the speaker to fail if the capacitor shorts when it fails). For best results, you should use a non-polarized or bi-polar (same thing) capacitor rated at 100 volts or more.


yes this site is for car audio, but you are speaking of an audio circut and so this applies.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *[redman88] (#2)*
> Please realize that I am "Only" talking about
> --> Connecting a "Stay Alive Capacitor" that are "Polarized".. (220uF -OR- 330uF ) to a "Speaker"..
> .......


You really don't get it. It's impossible for a series cap to provide a "keep-alive" for the sound! It can either block DC or as redman88 points out, provide a crossover function if you have multiple speakers. It does not now, or can it ever maintain the sound in the absence of any sound being output from the decoder! This can't be stated any plainer, so I fail to see why it doesn't sink in!

Now, if you connected the keep-alive capacitor across the DC power supply of the encoder, it would be possible for it to extend the sound, it's just powering the audio generation circuit. However, you really need to stop trying to convince people that the series capacitor can serve that role, it calls into question the other statements you make that might actually be correct.


----------



## highvoltage

Speaker phase is only important if you have more than one speaker. If one speaker is out of phase with the second speaker the net effect will be a cancellation. This is most apparent at lower frequencies.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Passive Crossover Capacitor..*



redman88 said:


> okay so i looked up some info. and you are wrong again.
> http://www.bcae1.com/capspkr.htm
> yes this site is for car audio, but you are speaking of an audio circut and so this applies.


This is a "Passive Crossover" capacitor is = "Non-Polarized"..

I am "Only" talking about "Stay Alive" capacitors = "Polarized"
for [DCC] operations..
......


----------



## redman88

ED-RRR said:


> This is a "Passive Crossover" capacitor is = "Non-Polarized"..
> 
> 
> 
> I am "Only" talking about "Stay Alive" capacitors = "Polarized"
> 
> for [DCC] operations..
> 
> ......




Which have no place inline with a speaker.


----------



## time warp

Ed, are you aware that a capacitor only discharges direct current?
I mentioned earlier, disc caps are NOT polarity sensitive
Electrolytics ARE polarity sensitive.
In either case, these devices will not "output" AC , or frequency . Only DC.
They are filters, they "absorb" voltage or frequency variations. Put simply.


----------



## fcwilt

highvoltage said:


> Speaker phase is only important if you have more than one speaker. If one speaker is out of phase with the second speaker the net effect will be a cancellation. This is most apparent at lower frequencies.


I glad someone brought this up.

Thank you.

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

When you have just a single speaker in the loco (which is quite typical) the phasing of the speaker does NOT matter at all.


Do you still contend that a cap in series with the speaker will allow the sound to continue during minor power outages?


And have you considered how much current will try to flow out of a 9 volt battery when connected to a typical 4/8 ohm speaker?


Frederick


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Don't try to confuse him with facts, I've tried that and it doesn't work. :smilie_auslachen:


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> Snip ....*Special Note:*
> I have "Not" edited or altered any of these pictures..
> 
> Are you saying the very first two pictures you posted in this thread have not been edited ? Or are you still brushing off those two pictures ?
> 
> Snip .... All capacitors are connected in "Series"..
> 
> No, they are not. Unless the capacitor is being used as a filter, they must be installed in parallel to be utilized as a power saving device. All the pictures you keep posting clearly are configured this way - don't understand how you are not getting that.
> 
> 
> .....


Mark.


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> *Assembly Procedure:*
> Correctly add a "Speaker" --> "Capacitor"..
> - Polarized (+) and (-) terminals.. (Stay Alive)..
> - 330uF
> - 25V
> 
> View attachment 225474
> 
> ......


This last picture was clearly modified by you because it is wrong. Look at what you have ED - you have the negative terminal connected to the positive terminal of the speaker. 

Even if you WERE trying to show a band pass capacitor, you DON'T use a polarized one, you use a non-polarized version. What you have shown in that picture is neither a filter OR a stay alive of any sort.

Instead of throwing the same wrong information at us over and over and over, *TRY* it yourself and let us know your results.

Mark.


----------



## fcwilt

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Don't try to confuse him with facts, I've tried that and it doesn't work. :smilie_auslachen:


Hope springs eternal?

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

interesting ...
ED-RRR , a capacitor in SERIES to a speaker doesn't store power, it's a filter ..not a stay alive ..
a stay alive is wired in parallel in front of the sound generator ic, for sound stay alive .. that's why the colors are blue [power] and black or yellow / green [ground]

don't believe me?
hook it up in series YOURSELF and see what happens 
at this point your credibility has achieved a new low, didn't think it would be possible ..


----------



## fcwilt

I don't know if this is in fact what it is stated to be (an Arabian proverb) but it contains knowledge that helped me when I was growing up - perhaps it can help others.

Frederick


ARABIAN PROVERB

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, He is a fool - shun him
He who knows not and knows he knows not, He is simple - teach him;
He who knows and knows not he knows, He is asleep - wake him;
He who knows and knows he knows, He is wise; follow him.


----------



## Bwells

Ahhh, peace and quiet! It is nice when the kid takes a nap. I think that the thing everyone is missing is that you need to "self-identify" as Mr. Digitrax or Mr. Soundtraxx, only then will you be construed as having any knowledge. Just a thought.


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> - Not "Removing" the (x2) speaker wires from the [DCC] sound decoder, could/will "Destroy" the [DCC] sound decoder..


probably not ..the speaker should be decoupled on the pcb ..interestingly enough, with a capacitor in series ,,

There is a company called Throttle Up! that you can check with ..


----------



## time warp

I wish he'd make traxx :banplz:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

fcwilt said:


> He who knows and knows he knows, He is wise; follow him.


What about He who thinks he knows and knows he knows?  There's a hole in your proverb.


----------



## wvgca

*


ED-RRR said:



Warning: #2

Click to expand...

*


ED-RRR said:


> SoundTraxx [DCC] decoders now have (x2) purple wires (No Polarity) going to the "Speaker"..
> There is (x1) "Purple" wire = (+) to the "Speaker"..
> There is (x1) "Purple" wire = (-) to the "Speaker"..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That makes sense, however:
> I think that you have the two purple wires reversed in your second diagram, the top purple should go to the terminal where the bottom purple is connected to.
> The way it shows it may just suck the sound out
> please correct me if I'm wrong ..


----------



## time warp

Sound negativity? or Anti sound? Tsunami Sound sucker doesn't sound good.


----------



## fcwilt

gunrunnerjohn said:


> What about He who thinks he knows and knows he knows?  There's a hole in your proverb.


That's essentially covered by the first list isn't it?

Frederick


----------



## highvoltage

fcwilt said:


> I glad someone brought this up.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Frederick


You're welcome. Although I suspect the lesson will go unlearned.


----------



## wvgca

*


ED-RRR said:



Warning: #1

Click to expand...

*


ED-RRR said:


> Many [DCC] manufactures "No" longer use "Correctly" marked (+) and (-) "Speaker Terminals"..


In the absence of clearly marked terminals, convention is in 
the case of non equidistant terminals, the positive is on the 
right ..for equidistant there is normally a polarization notch in 
the speaker housing / frame ..

in the non marked images above, only the first one appears 
correct


----------



## johnfl68

Again, ED-RRR, as others have already stated, single speaker polarity (mono) does not matter.

The sound waveform has essentially equal swings in both positive and negative directions:










This would matter if you had more than one speaker, because if any of them are out of phase with each other, you will have problems with sound cancellation:










With only one speaker, there isn't anything to be out of phase with.

This is why SoundTraxx uses purple wires for both speaker terminals, it doesn't matter which ones they are connected to in that application.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Just curious, why is the speaker polarity such a hot button issue? Unless you have multiple speakers, there is very little difference (if any) in the sound of a properly baffled speaker regardless of the polarity of the connections.

I've done tests for O-scale stuff and tried to identify the differences between the polarity of the speaker connection and the sound quality. I, and many other people, are unable to identify any sound quality variance.

I would venture to say that most HO scale stuff doesn't have multiple speakers, though I can't speak from vast experience.

_Edit: I see John stepped in and illustrated my point while I was typing. _


----------



## wvgca

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Just curious, why is the speaker polarity such a hot button issue?



my personal opinion is that the OP is trying to distract the thread away from the 'simplified' images in post #1


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Probably an accurate guess, I couldn't understand why it was such a big deal. Phasing multiple speakers is a big deal, but even then the polarity of the phased array of speakers in unimportant.


----------



## time warp

Once again, bogged down explaining simple things. Thanks for the waveform pic, Johnfl68. That says it all!


----------



## wvgca

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Probably an accurate guess, I couldn't understand why it was such a big deal. Phasing multiple speakers is a big deal, but even then the polarity of the phased array of speakers in unimportant.


well, in some cases I feel it does make a difference .. I have a set of Klipsch KornerHorns, and there is a noticeable difference in 'feel' on low bass frequencies ..
When the polarity is, well, for a better word, 'correct', you can feel the low bass in your belly ..
hooked up in reverse, it kinds sucks .. 

that effect is totally missing in a 3/4" diameter speaker


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

OK, I agree that when you're talking "real" speakers it can and does make a significant difference. However, as you correctly observe, small speakers in model train applications are a bit bass deprived anyway.


----------



## wvgca

gunrunnerjohn said:


> However, as you correctly observe, small speakers in model train applications are a bit bass deprived anyway.


Is it possible that long term exposure to 'bass deprivation' would result in spurious emissions of irrelevant punctuation, and colored text highlights?


----------



## Lemonhawk

I used some dual speakers in putting sound in my NKP railfan berk. Went to a lot of trouble to phase the speakers and it still sounded terrible. Changed to one of the cheap iPhone speakers and it sounds great now. I think the porting and spacing has a lot to do with achieving good sound out of the little speakers, but as John says you just can't tell much from the phasing because there is just no base to start with.


----------



## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> well, in some cases I feel it does make a difference .. I have a set of Klipsch KornerHorns, and there is a noticeable difference in 'feel' on low bass frequencies ..
> When the polarity is, well, for a better word, 'correct', you can feel the low bass in your belly ..
> hooked up in reverse, it kinds sucks ..


Assuming you are changing the wiring of both speakers I don't see how there can be any difference.

There are so many potential places in the audio chain that the phase can be altered.

How could the speaker possibly "know" it was getting the correct phase?

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*Different Types Of Capacitors.. (x4)..*

Different types and usage of *"Capacitors"* that can be purchased..

From: Litch Field Station
http://www.litchfieldstation.net/product-category/supplies/capacitors/

– Super Cap for Lighting 
- Flicker Reduction 
- Speaker Coupling (Bi-Polar) = (Non-Polarized)..
- Energy Storage = (Polarized)..
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*Speaker Polarity ??*



redman88 said:


> Speaker polarity only maters when you have a *sound chamber*.
> if your speaker doesn't have a dedicated sound chamber you can drive it either way.


*Fact:*
Speakers have (+) and (-) "Terminals " for the speaker to function (100%) correctly..

*Question: [redman88]*
Why does "Speaker Polarity" only maters when using a sound chamber ??












wvgca said:


> In the absence of clearly marked terminals, convention is in
> the case of non equidistant terminals, *the positive is on the
> right ..*
> for equidistant there is normally a polarization notch in
> the speaker housing / frame ..
> in the non marked images above, only the first one appears
> correct


*Fact:*
This is a picture of a SoundTraxx speaker (Unit) P/N #810078..









*Question: [wvgca]*
Where are the (+) and (-) speaker terminals on this speaker ??



johnfl68 said:


> Again, ED-RRR, as others have already stated, single speaker polarity (mono) does not matter.
> The sound waveform has essentially equal swings in both positive and negative directions:


*Fact: (#1)*
Speakers use V-AC to move the "Speaker" coil "In and Out"..

*Fact: (#2)*
Speakers have (+) and (-) "Terminals" for the speaker to function (100%) correctly..

*[johnfl68]:* V-AC output speaker "Polarity"..
This is the "Required" testing procedure, to find the "Correct" speaker "Polarity"..









......


----------



## fcwilt

DELETED


----------



## time warp

What sound is produced when you hook a speaker up to "V- AC"? I guess you mean alternating current, fixed voltage?
Does the "V-AC" move the coil in and out? Or, does the coil move the speaker cone?
Is the sound "backwards" if the polarity is reversed to the coil which is moving in and out?


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

ALL capacitors store energy.

And speaker "polarity" is an arbitrary convention of no significance unless in relation to another speaker.

Frederick


----------



## teledoc

Fcwilt, Give up, you just can't fix STUPID, no matter how hard you try!!!!!! He will never get it, nor will he give in!!!


----------



## fcwilt

teledoc said:


> Fcwilt, Give up, you just can't fix STUPID, no matter how hard you try!!!!!! He will never get it, nor will he give in!!!


I think you are very likely correct.

Just call be a incurable optimist. 

Frederick


----------



## teledoc

The only sure cure is to take his "Sandbox" away permanently, and let him find another one to play in!!!! He has been given a lot of leeway and freedom to continue his STUPIDITY. If this happened on other forums, it is likely all the post would be deleted, and banishment soon to follow.


----------



## ED-RRR

*[teledoc]: Simple Question..*



teledoc said:


> Fcwilt, Give up, you just can't fix STUPID, no matter how hard you try!!!!!!
> He will never get it, nor will he give in!!!


*[teledoc]: (Forum Moderator)** Question..*
Are my (x2) postings (#187) and (#188) --> "Incorrect" ??
......


----------



## johnfl68

Ok, so I have taken the example ATSF step top 6 chime demo, and Inverted the phase on it.

Zooming way in to the waveform, you can clearly see that the bottom one is out of phase with the top one:










Now listen to the each file separately (each linked page has built in player - these are mono files so even though you may be listening on stereo speakers the same phase should be going to both speakers if wired correctly).

Original ATSF step top 6 chime demo MP3 file:
https://app.box.com/s/z1ejnw4jzhaxcn4g7t3kfhiupqlknvsw

ATSF step top 6 chime demo 180 out of phase MP3 file:
https://app.box.com/s/wdvlbgpx74j78wyhnyetu2ucm005m4qx

Can you hear a difference?
No, they both will sound the same. This is because the waveforms are both pushing and pulling the speaker diaphragm to reproduce the sound vibrations that were recorded.


Now here is the Stereo file, so the Original is on the Left and the 180 out of phase is on the Right (stereo playback speakers required).
(Fun note - if you play back on some smart phones which sum the left and right tracks to a single speaker, you hear nothing as they cancel each other out.)

ATSF step top 6 chime demo Stereo 180 MP3 file:
https://app.box.com/s/9ckxzna2prc6jdt5psolr5brxij2n9p0

You can now hear that it sounds weird, as the two are interacting with each other trying to cancel each other out. The sound no longer sounds like it is in the center of the two speaker locations.

Again, for a mono source on a single speaker phase does not matter, the polarity of the speaker terminals does not matter.


----------



## CTValleyRR

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then, ED.

Try being forthright (and gracious) about your mistakes. Even if those drawings ARE correct, that doesn't make up for a dozen or more filled with misinformation and loutish behavior.


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *[teledoc]: (Forum Moderator)** Question..*
> Are my (x2) postings (#187) and (#188) --> "Incorrect" ??
> ......


I would not consider the postings from Litchfield to be the last word in capacitor applications.

While their classifications are not wrong they are somewhat arbitrary.

And a single speaker in a loco will work "100% correctly" regardless of how it is wired - polarity wise.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*(Posting #155) Questionable Reply..*

*[gunrunnerjohn]: (Posting #155)*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> You really don't get it.
> It's impossible for a series cap to provide a "keep-alive" for the sound! It can either block DC or as redman88 points out,
> provide a crossover function if you have multiple speakers.





ED-RRR said:


> *Example: (#1)*
> Digitrax:
> Sound Decoder: SFX064D
> http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB727/sfx064d-sound-decoder-installation-instructions/
> (KB727: SFX064D Sound Decoder Installation Instructions)
> Pic #1
> *Example: (#2)*
> Digitrax:
> Sound Decoder: SDH164D SoundFX
> http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB998/sdh164-with-two-sp26158b-rectangular-speakers/
> (KB998: SDH164 with two SP26158B Rectangular Speakers).. "Polarized"..
> Note: The "Blue" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire..
> Pic #2
> *Example: (#3)*
> SoundTraxx:
> Sound Decoder: "No" Technical Information..
> Actual picture shown.. (P/N 826102)..
> This capacitor used = "Polarized"
> Note: The "Red" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire "Polarized" capacitor for a "Stay Alive Capacitor"..
> Pic #3


*Fact:*
"Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" use "Polarized Capacitors".. 









*Question: [gunrunnerjohn]*
Why does "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" use "Polarized Capacitors" ?? 



ED-RRR said:


> *Example: (#4)*
> TCS:
> Sound Decoder: WOW101 "Steam"
> http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/WOWSound/index.php
> (Keep your sounds going even over troublesome rails).. "Polarized"..
> Note: The "Blue" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire..


*Fact:*
"TCS" use a "Polarized Capacitor" to keep your sounds going even over troublesome rails..









*Question: [gunrunnerjohn]*
Why does "TCS" use a "Polarized Capacitor" ?? 

*Fact:*
Digitrax Sound Decoder: SFX006 (Sound Bug)..
http://www.digitrax.com/products/sound-decoders/sfx006/
(8 Ohm 16 x 26 x 9mm Box Speaker & 330uF Capacitor)..
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB296/sfx004-installation-instructions/
(KB296: SFX004 Installation Instructions).. "Polarized"..
( -5 Mount the 330uF/25V electrolytic energy-storage capacitor)..








*===================================================================*








*Question: [gunrunnerjohn]*
Why does "Digitrax" use a "Polarized Capacitor" ?? 

......


----------



## ED-RRR

*(Posting #166) Questionable Reply ??*

*[wvgca]: (Posting #166)*


wvgca said:


> interesting ...
> ED-RRR , a capacitor in SERIES to a speaker doesn't store power, it's a filter ..not a stay alive ..
> a stay alive is wired in parallel in front of the sound generator ic, for sound stay alive ..
> that's why the colors are blue [power] and black or yellow / green [ground]


*Fact: (#1)*
SoundTraxx uses "Red" (+) and "Black" (-)..
TCS and Digitrax both use "Blue" (+) and "Black" (-)..

*Fact: (#2)*
TCS is using a "Non-Polarized" capacitor for a "Stay Alive" capacitor..


ED-RRR said:


> *Example: (#4)*
> TCS:
> Sound Decoder: WOW101 "Steam"
> http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/WOWSound/index.php
> (Keep your sounds going even over troublesome rails).. "Polarized"..
> Note: The "Blue" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire..


*[wvgca]: (Posting #166)*


wvgca said:


> don't believe me?
> hook it up in series YOURSELF and see what happens
> at this point your credibility has achieved a new low, didn't think it would be possible ..


*Question: [wvgca]*
You have "Stated" that the 330uF capacitor should "Not" be connected in "Series".. (it's a filter)..
How would you *"Recommend"* how to connect a *"Polarized"* capacitor (stay alive) to a "Speaker ??..
......


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

Because in a "keep alive" application you are dealing with DC. Your primary concern is how much energy you want to store. For a given voltage and capacitance rating a polarized cap is going to be cheaper and smaller. If size/cost was not an issue a non-polarized cap of the same ratings would work as well.

BTW in those images you posted none of the caps are in series with the speaker and/or the LEDs.

Frederick


----------



## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> How would you *"Recommend"* how to connect a *"Polarized"* capacitor (stay alive) to a "Speaker ??..
> ......


You hook it up like I posted in posts #23 and #96 so it gets power to charge from the bridge rectifier and then powers the light function processor, motor processor, and audio processor and amplifier temporarily when the loco loses track power briefly. 



















You don't connect it in series to the speaker in the manor that you keep suggesting.


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

Because in a "keep alive" application you are dealing with DC. Your primary concern is how much energy you want to store. For a given voltage and capacitance rating a polarized cap is going to be cheaper and smaller. If size/cost was not an issue a non-polarized cap of the same ratings would work as well.

BTW in those images you posted none of the caps are in series with the speaker and/or the LEDs.

The DCC power from the tracks is first converted to DC to power the decoder electronics. 

The "keep alive" caps are connected from DC+ to DC- and provide additional energy storage so the decoder keeps on working for a short time after DCC power is lost.

The larger the capacitance the longer the time. 

The greater the load the shorter the time.

The fact that the sound keeps playing is because DC power to the decoder as a whole is being maintained by the energy stored in the cap.

Frederick


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

Oh yes I forgot to mention.

When it comes to sound decoders the ONLY time you NEED a cap in series with the speaker is IF the amp feeding the speaker has DC on it's output - which some amp designs do.

The cap is there to block the DC from reaching the speaker. 

It has NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to do with maintaining sound during a loss of DCC power.

Frederick


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I really hate to say it, but you're as dumb as a box of rocks! All the "keep alive" capacitors for audio you've posted are not connected in series with a speaker lead, don't you get it?


ED-RRR said:


> *Question: [wvgca]*
> You have "Stated" that the 330uF capacitor should "Not" be connected in "Series".. (it's a filter)..
> How would you *"Recommend"* how to connect a *"Polarized"* capacitor (stay alive) to a "Speaker ??..
> ......


It's a really simple answer, you don't connect them that way. They're connected internally to the power supply to hold up the DC voltage to the sound generation and amplifier sections that are driving the speakers!



I'll say this again, and I'll speak slowly so you may get it regarding your obsession with the speaker polarity.

SPEAKER POLARITY DOES NOT MATTER!

Wait a minute, maybe that didn't sink in.

SPEAKER POLARITY DOES NOT MATTER!

If you have multiple speakers, the phasing does matter, all of them should be connected "in phase". Use your prodigious Internet copy-n-paste skills and look that up.

If you think about it, any waveform driving them will have a pretty symmetrical count of positive and negative half cycles of largely similar amplitude, so there is no real reason why the speaker moving back, at a time when the diaphragm in the microphone that made the original recording was moving forward, should have any effect. The 'scope trace of the symmetry of the waveform was already posted, I guess you didn't understand what you saw.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

fcwilt said:


> BTW in those images you posted none of the caps are in series with the speaker and/or the LEDs.


Caps in series with the LED, that's an interesting concept.


----------



## time warp

205 posts! Ed, you've learned nothing! :welcome:


----------



## fcwilt

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Caps in series with the LED, that's an interesting concept.


Well in post #1 ED-RRR provided a drawing he said that he had done to "simplify" another drawing and in HIS drawing the cap was in series with the LEDs.

And he has yet to acknowledge his error.

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> Well in post #1 ED-RRR provided a drawing he said that he had done to "simplify" another drawing and in HIS drawing the cap was in series with the LEDs.
> 
> And he has yet to acknowledge his error.
> 
> Frederick



when I read the new posts in this thread, the first thing that pops into my mind is a simple statement that gunrunnerjohn posted a while ago in a thread about LED's..
"some inaccuracies":laugh:


----------



## time warp

And yet, the trumpet continues to sound "charge"!!!!!

How can you build fighter jets in your garage and not have a fundamental understanding of electronics? 
And where, oh where, do you purchase caps that store sound?
And how does one produce sound exclusive of frequency?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

time warp said:


> How can you build fighter jets in your garage and not have a fundamental understanding of electronics?


Since I was working in aerospace engineering for years, the answer to that question is simple, it never happened!


> And where, oh where, do you purchase caps that store sound?


In Never-Never-Land?


> And how does one produce sound exclusive of frequency?


It's very low notes.


----------



## Bwells

How much sound could a sound cap store if a sound cap could store sound?


----------



## time warp

Yeah John, but what do you know? ED's got the internet! :smilie_auslachen:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

time warp said:


> Yeah John, but what do you know? ED's got the internet! :smilie_auslachen:


And all I have is the education, the experience, and the knowledge of how electronic parts function and are used. 

Wait... I have the Internet as well, I just don't depend on it for all my _[facts]_.


----------



## Mark R.

Ed - this entire thread pivots around your very first post - #1. For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge that you modified it incorrectly, and what you posted does not work .... period.

Everything else you keep posting again and again IS correct. If you would have just admitted your oops right at the beginning, this thread would not have gotten to the 22 pages it has. 

Mark.


----------



## Mark R.

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]: (Posting #166)*
> 
> 
> *Fact: (#1)*
> SoundTraxx uses "Red" (+) and "Black" (-)..
> TCS and Digitrax both use "Blue" (+) and "Black" (-)..
> 
> *Fact: (#2)*
> TCS is using a "Non-Polarized" capacitor for a "Stay Alive" capacitor..
> 
> 
> *[wvgca]: (Posting #166)*
> 
> 
> *Question: [wvgca]*
> You have "Stated" that the 330uF capacitor should "Not" be connected in "Series".. (it's a filter)..
> How would you *"Recommend"* how to connect a *"Polarized"* capacitor (stay alive) to a "Speaker ??..
> ......


Fact 1 - The color of the wires has nothing to do with anything. That application is outside of the NMRA recommended color coding, so they are free to use whatever colors they want.

Fact 2 - No they are not. They are using a polarized capacitor. You even said so yourself in your previous post. Now you are even contradicting yourself ....

As for the "question" - you cannot attach a polarized capacitor to a SPEAKER for ANY stay alive. The capacitor is attached to the amplifier which is driving the speaker. The capacitor keeps the amplifier powered during outages to it continues to provide sound to the speaker. A capacitor stores voltage / current, not sound.

Mark.


----------



## wvgca

Well .. as the saying goes, we have 'some inaccuracies' ..

Obviously the fundamental error is within the first post with the 'simplified' diagram ...

also post #7:
_So you [Mark VerMurlen] are claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires.._

again in post #10
_So you [wvgca] is also claiming that "Digitrax" and "SoundTraxx" are "Totally" wrong when placing a "Capacitor" between the [DCC] decoder and speaker wires..
I did my homework..

_ the first image in post #15, same as in post #1,

the image in post #25,

a clearly false statement in post #83
_*Are you all forgetting that I "Only" do "Copy-N-Paste" with (100%) "Technical Facts" **??

*_ again in post #149
_*[DCC] "Sound Decoders"*
- All capacitors are connected in "Series"..

_ the image in post #151











next incorrect post is #153
_*[redman88] (#2)*
Please realize that I am "Only" talking about
--> Connecting a "Stay Alive Capacitor" that are "Polarized".. (220uF -OR- 330uF ) to a "Speaker".._

still again in post #200
*Fact: (#2)*
TCS is using a "Non-Polarized" capacitor for a "Stay Alive" capacitor..
Quote:
Originally Posted by *ED-RRR*  
_*Example: (#4)*
TCS: 
Sound Decoder: WOW101 "Steam" 
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Conte...ound/index.php
(Keep your sounds going even over troublesome rails).. "Polarized"..
Note: The "Blue" (+) wire and the "Black" (-) wire..

_
What annoys me is not the mistakes per se, somewhat the refusal to admit them, but more importantly if a newer user takes these 'inaccurate' diagrams, and puts a cap in series with either lights or the speaker, and it doesn't work .. A new user can get frustrated very easily, and in some cases just drop the hobby ..that's the major annoyance to me ..

k, off the soapbox now..
thanks for reading my mild rant


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

wvgca said:


> What annoys me is not the mistakes per se, somewhat the refusal to admit them, but more importantly if a newer user takes these 'inaccurate' diagrams, and puts a cap in series with either lights or the speaker, and it doesn't work .. A new user can get frustrated very easily, and in some cases just drop the hobby ..that's the major annoyance to me ..


Exactly. There is no reasoning with this person, and the refusal to believe anyone else might know something he doesn't is somewhat amazing. I get corrected all the time, and typically I need it.


----------



## CTValleyRR

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Exactly. There is no reasoning with this person, and the refusal to believe anyone else might know something he doesn't is somewhat amazing. I get corrected all the time, and typically I need it.


Or really, that he thinks he can MAKE himself the smartest guy around merely by copying information he clearly doesn't fully understand from thie internet.

And the fact that he doesn't actually discuss anything, just throws out more information, perhaps in the hopes that, by the law of averages, he WILL get something right, or in the hope that it will cover up the times that he hasn't.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Some Forum Behavior..*

*[teledoc]: Posting #192*
*Moderator:*


teledoc said:


> Fcwilt, Give up, you just can't fix *STUPID*, no matter how hard you try!!!!!! He will never get it, nor will he give in!!!


*[time warp]: Posting #213*


time warp said:


> Yeah John, but what do you know? ED's got the internet! :smilie_auslachen:


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #214*
*Administrator:*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> And all I have is the education, the experience, *and the knowledge of how electronic parts function and are used.*
> Wait... I have the Internet as well, I just don't depend on it for all my _[facts]_.


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #218*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> Exactly. There is no reasoning with this person, and the refusal to believe anyone else might know something he doesn't is somewhat amazing.
> *I get corrected all the time, and typically I need it.*


*Question:*
How many of the "Above" postings are from "Individuals" that have actual [DCC] sound module experience ??
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*[DCC] Sound Decoder --> With "Keep Alive" (Speaker Capacitor)..*









*Question: (#1)*
Did anyone ever go to this web site ??
https://www.tcsdcc.com
https://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Decoders/WOWSound/index.php









*Question: (#2)*
Why is TCS "Only" stating (Keep your *"Sounds" *going even over troublesome rails) ??









An individual is stating that this (x1) very small "Polarized" capacitor, 
is a "Stay Alive" capacitor for the complete [DCC] sound module..

*Question: (#3)*
Are manufactured "Stay Alive" units for a [DCC] decoder much "Larger" and have much "Higher" uF storage ??

*Question: (#4)*
How can such a small "Polarized" capacitor power a [DCC] decoder:
- Processor
- Motor Control Processor
- Function Processor
- AND the high amperage V-DC motor
All at the "Same" time with such a small "Polarized" capacitor ??

*Fact: (#1)*
Everyone is stating that you can "Not" have a "Keep Alive" (Speaker Capacitor)..

*Fact: (#2)*
TCS does have a "Keep Alive" (Only Speaker Capacitor)..

*Question: (#5)*
How did TCS connect such a "Small Speaker Capacitor" for only *"Sounds"* ??
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Question:*
> How many of the "Above" postings are from "Individuals" that have actual [DCC] sound module experience ??
> ......


ED-RRR, it's not DCC sound module experience, it's basic electronics knowledge and / or experience, with or without being a 'papered' engineer ..

Just to let you know, I actually tried your circuits on an old MRC sound decoder a few nights ago, [I was reaaaally bored], and with the recommended capacitor is series with the lights, they don't work ..period, and with your recommended capacitor in series with the speaker, it reduced the sound slightly, especially low range frequencies, but the sound did not continue after track power was turned off, basically that one didn't work either ..

Instead of continually trying to change the subject, you would be better off changing the 'inaccuracies' .. you mentioned that you had several sound decoders, were you not able to try these circuits yourself beforehand?


----------



## time warp

Ed, you are the person here that has zero sound module understanding.


----------



## fcwilt

Hi ED-RRR,

You cannot "keep the sound going" by placing a cap in series with the speaker.

As stated many times if you see such a cap it is there to block DC from the amp getting to the speaker.

It would be easy to connect a cap to only provide "keep alive" power to just the audio portion of the decoder circuitry if that was what the manufacture decided to do.

As to the value of the cap - the larger the value the longer the decoder will function after loss of power.

Various manufacture have decided on the value of the cap according to their own goals and criteria.

As to your focus on polarized versus non-polarized caps: Nobody set out to make a polarized cap - that is simply a "side effect" of the materials commonly used to achieve high valued caps.

This is very simple electronics - nothing magical, nothing complicated.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*[DCC] Sound Decoder --> With "Keep Alive" (Speaker Capacitor)..*

*Fact: (#1)*
TCS does have a "Keep Alive" (Only Speaker Capacitor)..

*Question: (#5)*
How did TCS connect such a "Small Speaker Capacitor" for only "Sounds" ??
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Question: (#5)*
> How did TCS connect such a "Small Speaker Capacitor" for only *"Sounds"* ??
> ......



Easy answer .. the cap is wired [in parallel] with the power input to the sound module only, and does not power the lights or the final motor drive circuit ..it's only there to prevent the sound module from doing a reset / restart when it loses power, that way it doesn't go through the start up sound sequence every time there is a very short power interruption ..
It works the same way as the Sountraxx decoder that you mentioned earlier in this thread, the model 826102 ..

I actually emailed Throttle Up! and got this reply ..

_Thank you for contacting us. The capacitor is for the processor and does not supply power to the motor.
__Justin Revard_
_Customer Support_
_SoundTraxx_
_(970) 259 - 0690_


----------



## ED-RRR

*Why Did It Take So Long --> To Prove About A (Speaker Capacitor)..??*

There are presently 4,430 views in this "Thread"
There must be some very interested individuals.. 

A special "Thanks" to *[wvgca]* for adding detailed "Technical Information"..



wvgca said:


> Easy answer ..
> the cap is wired *[in parallel]* with the power input to the sound module only,
> and *does not power the lights or the final motor drive circuit *..
> *it's only there to prevent the sound module from doing a reset / restart when it loses power, *
> that way it doesn't go through the start up sound sequence every time there is a very short power interruption ..
> It works the same way as the Sountraxx decoder that you mentioned earlier in this thread, the model 826102 ..
> 
> I actually emailed Throttle Up! and got this reply ..
> 
> _Thank you for contacting us. The capacitor is for the processor and does not supply power to the motor.
> 
> __Justin Revard_
> _Customer Support_
> _SoundTraxx_
> _(970) 259 - 0690_


*Fact: *
Thanks to *[wvgca]* that a lower value uF "Capacitor" can be used "Only" for a speaker capacitor "Stay Alive"..
......


----------



## johnfl68

wvgca said:


> I actually emailed Throttle Up! and got this reply ..
> 
> _Thank you for contacting us. The capacitor is for the processor and does not supply power to the motor._


_

Wait, don't go contacting manufacturers to refute ED-RRR's claims. 

That is how this all started when I did this with Digitrax in one of his first posts with misinformation about Linear and Switching Power Supplies and his claim that you can't use Switching Power Supplies to power DCC because they have too much "noise". Many of the same people here tried to help him with correct information then as well, to no avail.

Digitrax confirmed that there is no problem using Switching Power Supplies for their command stations and boosters.

But that is also the thread where he said:



ED-RRR said:



My "Final" Reply --> This Thread..
I will "No" longer communicate in this forum..

Click to expand...

Just another one of his "facts" that turned out to be wrong._


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *Fact: *
> Thanks to *[wvgca]* that a lower value uF "Capacitor" can be used "Only" for a speaker capacitor "Stay Alive"..
> ......


That is not what his post proves.

You should not be drawing conclusions about things you do not understand.

Frederick


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *Question:*
> How many of the "Above" postings are from "Individuals" that have actual [DCC] sound module experience ??


Like I said, you just don't get it. I don't need any DCC experience to know some of the basic "facts" you've presented are all wet! I don't know what your experience or education is, it seems apparent that it's not electrical engineering.

I've led a number of projects in aerospace for flight critical electronic systems, including air data computers, primary flight instruments, and fuel system measurement and controls. Those are the kind of systems that when they fail, the aircraft is in jeopardy. Those systems also receive the highest design assurance level and scrutiny by the FAA before the system is approved for installation on the aircraft. If I had your level of competence in electronics, and these systems ever actually made it on an airplane, you'd be hearing about the plane crash in the news!

You have some warped impression that experience with DCC is necessary to understand basic electronic principles, nothing could be farther from the truth. DCC is actually very simple stuff, it's not rocket science! 

I don't doubt you could probably wire up an off the shelf encoder and get it working, as long as you didn't apply any of your harebrained home-brew "enhancements". That makes you a junior tech, not an experienced electrical engineer. Do yourself and us a big favor, stop trying to prove you're smarter than everyone here, because you're not.


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *Fact: *
> Thanks to *[wvgca]* that a lower value uF "Capacitor" can be used "Only" for a speaker capacitor "Stay Alive"..
> ......



Uh .. if you read my post again, the cap is for the sound module, which drives the speaker .. not the speaker itself ..
maybe not a big difference to you, but a difference between working and not working..

anyways, I've enjoyed [most] of your posts, and I will miss them [a little]


----------



## time warp

wvgca said:


> Easy answer .. the cap is wired [in parallel] with the power input to the sound module only, and does not power the lights or the final motor drive circuit ..it's only there to prevent the sound module from doing a reset / restart when it loses power, that way it doesn't go through the start up sound sequence every time there is a very short power interruption ..
> It works the same way as the Sountraxx decoder that you mentioned earlier in this thread, the model 826102 ..
> 
> I actually emailed Throttle Up! and got this reply ..
> 
> _Thank you for contacting us. The capacitor is for the processor and does not supply power to the motor.
> __Justin Revard_
> _Customer Support_
> _SoundTraxx_
> _(970) 259 - 0690_


 And how many times has he been told this by the apparent "morons" in this forum? It only took 230 posts. Now who's the moron?


----------



## ED-RRR

*Old Generation & New Generation [DCC] Applications.. (Big Problem In This Forum)..*

*Read Me --> Very Important Information.. (Power Supply)..*

- I myself (Old Generation) have been on and off using my [DCC] operated model train layout since 2002.. (Digitrax)..
- There are many (New Generation) [DCC] operated model train operators in this "Forum".. 
Warning: There are also individuals posting [DCC] technical information without any actual [DCC] "Experience"..

This is "Not" me *[ED-RRR]* just doing "Copy-N-Paste" from the "Internet"..
This is me *[ED-RRR]* "Re-Wiring" and "Updating" my complete [DCC] layout..

*[johnfl68]: Posting # 228*


johnfl68 said:


> That is how this all started when I did this with Digitrax in one of his first posts with misinformation about Linear
> and Switching Power Supplies and his claim that you can't use Switching Power Supplies to power DCC because they have too much "noise".
> Many of the same people here tried to help him with correct information then as well, to no avail.
> Digitrax confirmed that there is no problem using Switching Power Supplies for their command stations and boosters.
> But that is also the thread where he said:


*[johnfl68]: Question*
- Why have you "Only" posted certain "Postings" going out of "Total Context" ?? 

*[ED-RRR]: Posted*
- There are many "Different" types of "Switching Power Supplies"..
- I had "Direct" contact with Mark Gurries, a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer.. 
- I was told that any V-DC switching power supply can be used
- But -
Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) are associated with radio interference..
That is why hospitals use "Filtered" power supplies to reduce RF noise..

My much older (HO) layout is "Only" using V-DC "Regulated Linear" power supplies.. (Now Very Hard To Find)..
My "Digitrax" [DCC] system is being powered by the best recommended "Spring Haven" P/N PT6-2 power supply.. (Now Obsolete).. 
- 18.V-AC @ 6.25Amps.. (Fused 5.Amp)..









*Mark Gurries:*
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/booster-connections-power
In the early DCC days, the most common type of power supply was a simple AC transformer. 
However both cost and global green initiatives have created a shift away from the common AC transformer power supply 
to special high efficiency DC power supply. 
DCC manufacture have switched to these new high efficiency DC powers supplies which are technically known as "Switching Power Supplies". 
They are basically customized notebook computer AC power supply or "AC adapters" of suitable power levels for DCC.

*Facts:*
A vast majority of us (Old Generation) installed V-AC power supplies..
That is why the "Spring Haven" P/N PT6-2 power supply was purchased by most professionals.. (18.V-AC @ 6.25Amps - Fused 5.Amp)..
Has plenty of backup "Voltage" and the required "Maximum" 5.Amp power supply.. (Lot Of Power Reserve)..

*Warning:*
Old "Digitrax" documents are "Not" updated and are still available from their web site.. 
Once [DCC] power supplies went from V-AC to V-DC "Switching Power Supplies", many of the rules were changed by "Digitrax".. 

*Special Notes: Digitrax Past History*
In (HO) scale - Booster Voltage = 12.V-DC
In (HO) scale - Track Voltage = 15.V-AC
http://www.digitrax.com/products/power-supplies/ps514/
When the power supply is using 12.V-DC @ 5.Amps, the "Minimum" (RMS) will "Not" be achieved to power the "Digitrax Unit".. 









*Special Notes: Digitrax Updates *
Since (New Generation) [DCC] applications are now using "Switching Power Supplies",
"Digitrax" has changed and "Updated" (x2) major features..

*(#1) 
Digitrax Update: (2014)*
http://www.digitrax.com/products/power-supplies/ps514/
Note: For DCS100/DB150 "Minimum" input should be: 12 volts AC or 15 volts DC.
In (HO) scale - Booster Voltage = 15.V-DC
In (HO) scale - Track Voltage = 15.V-AC
The power supply is using 15.V-DC @ 5.Amps, the "Minimum" required (RMS) to power the "Digitrax Unit".. 









*(#2) 
Digitrax Update: (2012)*
KB415: DCS 100 & 200 Front panel
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB415/dcs-100-200-front-panel/
Ground Terminal:
The terminal marked ground provides electrical safety features and an RF ground reference for minimum radiated noise. 









*[johnfl68]: Posting # 228*


johnfl68 said:


> and his claim that you can't use Switching Power Supplies to power DCC because they have too much "noise".


From Mark Gurries, I was told that any V-DC switching power supply can be used for [DCC] directly 
- But -
Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) are associated with radio interference.. (Radio frequency - RF) 

*[johnfl68]: Question *
Did you know this ??
Mark Gurries, a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer.. 
(Booster Connections & Power)
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/booster-connections-power
Mark Gurries: Quotes
--> NO EARTH GROUND WIRING
Simply put: Don't connect any part of your DCC system directly to Earth Ground.
Any term "Ground" used in regard to the DCC system DOES NOT MEAN YOU connect it to Earth Ground. 
This is the hazard of using the word "ground" instead of the better and more accurate word "common" as in Booster Common.

If you decide to buy your own new power supply, your choices will be mostly limited to a Switching Power supply.
If you pick one of suitable power, make sure the power supply AC input only has a 2 prong AC plug (No Earth Ground).
DCC manufacture have moved to these type of Switching Power Supplies.
Avoid using any power supply that requires a 3 prong plug connection.
The 3rd connection is Earth Ground which is not desirable for use in a DCC system. 

*Digitrax Power Supply: PS2012 (2012) *
KB1007: PS2012 - Overview and Installation
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB1007/ps2012-overview-and-installation/
- The PS2012 comes with a 3 prong plug (2 power and ground). --> (Earth Ground)..
- This unit must be used with a properly grounded AC receptacle.









......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR ...
a couple of things that you may have missed ..

A switching power supply with a three prong AC plug will normally have the metal case [if it has one], connected to Earth Ground
for safety, however there normally no electrical connection from the output ground to AC input side earth ground ..

And secondly, I don't see where power supply earth ground issues are relevant in any way to the initial topic in this thread ...
probably should have been a new thread?

By the way, your post is much easier for me to read [and follow] without a great amount of extraneous punctuation and colored text ,
and only one "facts' .._* a huge improvement , :appl:*_
thank you


----------



## fcwilt

Hi ED-RRR,

In your most recent post you included the following:

_If you pick one of suitable power, make sure the power supply AC input only has a 2 prong AC plug (No Earth Ground).
DCC manufacture have moved to these type of Switching Power Supplies.
Avoid using any power supply that requires a 3 prong plug connection.
The 3rd connection is Earth Ground which is not desirable for use in a DCC system. _"

That information is not necessarily correct.

There is a difference between having the case of the power supply connected to the AC ground from the wall outlet and having the negative output of the power supply connected to the AC ground.

Grounding the case is a safety issue which can protect you in case of an component/wiring failure in the power supply.

The outputs of most all switching supplies are going to be completely isolated from the AC ground.

That is what you want to verify.

Frederick


----------



## ED-RRR

*(#1) Ground Wire ??*



wvgca said:


> ED-RRR ...
> a couple of things that you may have missed ..
> 
> A switching power supply with *a three prong AC plug will normally have the metal case *[if it has one], connected to Earth Ground
> for safety, however there normally no electrical connection from the output ground to AC input side earth ground ..


I am "Only" using "Mark Gurries", a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer advise,
- Because -
Not "All" switching power supplies are wired the exactly the "Same".. 



wvgca said:


> And secondly, I don't see where *power supply earth ground issues are relevant* in any way to the initial topic in this thread ...
> probably should have been a new thread?


*[wvgca]:*
Yes you are (100%) correct,
- But -
I decided to keep the "Same" posted replies in this "Thread".. 
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*(#2) Ground Wire ??*



fcwilt said:


> Hi ED-RRR,
> In your most recent post you included the following:
> _If you pick one of suitable power, make sure the power supply AC input only has a 2 prong AC plug (No Earth Ground).
> DCC manufacture have moved to these type of Switching Power Supplies.
> Avoid using any power supply that requires a 3 prong plug connection.
> The 3rd connection is Earth Ground which is not desirable for use in a DCC system. _"
> 
> *That information is not necessarily correct.*
> 
> There is a difference between having, say, the case of the power supply connected to the AC ground from the wall outlet
> and having the negative output of the power supply connected to the AC ground.
> 
> Grounding the case is a safety issue which can protect you in case of an component/wiring failure in the power supply.
> 
> The outputs of most all switching supplies are going to be completely isolated from the AC ground.
> That is what you want to verify.
> Frederick


*Fact:*
All of my posted "Technical Information" is "Only" from "Mark Gurries", a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer..

*[fcwilt]: Question*
Are you actually "Claiming" that the [DCC] ground wiring information from "Mark Gurries", a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer advisor --> Is "Incorrect ??
......


----------



## time warp

Geesh Ed, he's saying that circuit ground, or common, is not the same as line voltage case ground.

Here we go.


----------



## johnfl68

ED-RRR said:


> I myself (Old Generation) have been on and off using my [DCC] operated model train layout since 2002.. (Digitrax)..
> 
> - Why have you "Only" posted certain "Postings" going out of "Total Context" ??


Old Generation vs. New??? Do you even have any clue as how old I am? 

I have been running Digitrax since 1997 without any issues, so while I don't claim to be an expert, I do have a good amount of experience.

The context here that you don't seem to get, is that no matter what you post or say, you think that you are always right no matter what, and everyone else who has tried to help you or correct your "facts" is always wrong.

That has been the whole problem since the beginning.


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> I am "Only" using "Mark Gurries", a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer advise,
> - Because -
> Not "All" switching power supplies are wired the exactly the "Same"..


This is true, however you are taking two statements that are generally correct:
1]three prong plug supplies normally have the metal case connected to earth ground for safety, and 
2] A DCC system should not have any direct connection to earth ground,
and implying [without proof] that the earth ground is connected to the power supply output, 
and therefore to the DCC system ...
So ... what led you to believe this?


----------



## time warp

So now, another of ED- RRR's famous frigging fistfights. Why don't you just button your lip and go away? For crying out loud, are you such a dim bulb that you really are willing to argue with intelligent, experienced people about something you read?
You've had your eye dotted repeatedly by the learned persons here because you try to make it appear as though you know something. Give up.


----------



## fcwilt

ED-RRR said:


> *Fact:*
> *[fcwilt]: Question*
> Are you actually "Claiming" that the [DCC] ground wiring information from "Mark Gurries", a NMRA [DCC] clinic engineer advisor --> Is "Incorrect ??
> ......


Yes, yes - I know all about Mark Gurries - and most of what he posts is well known to many, many people - including folks here on this forum.

I am saying that you do no have enough knowledge to understand the implications of what you read.

I do have that knowledge and understanding as do others here.


All of my power supplies have 3 pronged plugs and all of the outputs are totally isolated from the AC ground.

So you don't have to only use power supplies with 2 pronged plugs.

Frederick


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR ... quoting 'selected' parts from other web pages doesn't mean that you are correct .. especially in your reference to two and three prong plugs ..
Just to give you a bit of "_larnin_'": [fancy word for EDification]

the third prong on a three prong plug is designated a 'ground' [green],and is used for safety purposes, especially when there are metal frames or enclosures ... this ground [bare wire inside house wiring cable] goes back to your main electrical panel, and ALL grounds are tied together on a buss bar ..

the neutral / return [white] wire from your toaster or digitrax supply [interchangeable], goes back to the main panel also, and ALL the whites are tied together in another buss bar ...

Are you following this so far?? [I am typing s.l.o.w.l.y]

Now, lo and behold .. the ground AND the neutral are TIED TOGETHER, and attach to a "Earth Ground" bar driven about eight feet into the ground ...

Basically it doesn't matter if you use a two or three prong plug, at the panel they BOTH have a connection to "Earth Ground" ..Just ask any first year electrical apprentice [engineer not required] ...

Have a nice day


----------



## ED-RRR

*(#1) Switching Power Supply --> (Ground Wire)..*



wvgca said:


> ED-RRR ... quoting 'selected' parts from other web pages doesn't mean that you are correct .. especially in your reference to two and three prong plugs ..
> Just to give you a bit of "_larnin_'": [fancy word for EDification]
> the third prong on a three prong plug is designated a 'ground' [green],and is used for safety purposes,
> especially when there are metal frames or enclosures ... this ground [bare wire inside house wiring cable] goes back to your main electrical panel,
> and ALL grounds are tied together on a buss bar ..
> the neutral / return [white] wire from your toaster or digitrax supply [interchangeable], goes back to the main panel also,
> and ALL the whites are tied together in another buss bar ...
> Are you following this so far?? [I am typing s.l.o.w.l.y]
> Now, lo and behold .. the ground AND the neutral are TIED TOGETHER, and attach to a "Earth Ground" bar driven about eight feet into the ground ...
> Basically it doesn't matter if you use a two or three prong plug, at the panel they BOTH have a connection to "Earth Ground" ..Just ask any first year electrical apprentice [engineer not required] ...
> Have a nice day


*[wvgca]: Question*
Why are you telling me about basic electrical wiring ??
I had majored in "Electrical" in High School..
I also do my own 120V-AC and 240V-AC wiring.. 

*[wvgca]: Fact*
All ground wires are "Connected Together" through out the house..

*[wvgca]: Question*
Why are you doubting Mark Gurries, who is a NMRA [DCC] clinic ??
......


----------



## ED-RRR

*(#2) Switching Power Supply --> (Ground Wire)..*



fcwilt said:


> Yes, yes - I know all about Mark Gurries - and most of what he posts is well known to many, many people - including folks here on this forum.
> 
> I am saying that you do no *(not)* have enough knowledge to understand the implications of what you read.
> 
> I do have that knowledge and understanding as do others here.
> All of my power supplies have 3 pronged plugs and all of the outputs are totally isolated from the AC ground.
> So you don't have to only use power supplies with 2 pronged plugs.
> Frederick


*[fcwilt]: Fact*
I *[ED-RRR]* was the individual who brought up this "Subject".. (Ground Wire)..

*[fcwilt]: Question*
Why are you stating that I do not have enough knowledge to understand the implication using a "Ground Wire",
when I had "Direct" communications with Mark Gurries how "Noise" effects [DCC] components ??

*[fcwilt]: Fact*
You have all of your power supplies with 3 pronged plugs and all of the outputs are "Totally Isolated" from the "V-AC Ground".

*///////////////////////////////////////////
*
*[ED-RRR] Posted: 11-20-2015 (Nov.20/2015)*
Noise (Electronic) Prevention for [DCC]
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=53169

*Direct E-Mail Communications..*
*Question:*
Why did the manufactures of power supplies "change" from
a V-DC power supply (Linear) to a V-DC (Switching) power supply ??

*Answer: 
Mark Gurries:*
Global Green initiatives have basically made 
switching power supplies the only choice going forward.. 
The labor cost on making old big iron AC transformers 
have also risen while the cost of switching power supplies 
which are mostly made by machines has fallen.. 
All of the DCC vendors have been forced to change the power
supply choices to switching power types to keep cost down
and conform to governmental green initiatives.. 
It not limited to DCC manufactures
for its a MUCH bigger problem affecting all manufactures..

The key to controlling noise, is understanding where 
all the ground paths are and all the paths they take.. 
Ground loops are when there are TWO paths for 
the noisy current to flow between two points.. 
There is a saying that "Electricity will take the path 
with the least resistance, but that not 100% true.. 
Current flows in both paths all the time but the majority 
will be taking the path of least resistance.. It’s a ratio.. 
My point is that unless you know where your ground connections are going,
you have no control of where the current is going..
If you do not have control of the current path,
you do not have true control of system resulting 
in operational problems or worse..
Typically one of the paths is hidden or not obvious to the laymen 
which is why there is a mystery to the success or failure.. 

*///////////////////////////////////////////*

*Mark Gurries:*
Booster Connections & Power
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/booster-connections-power
NO EARTH GROUND WIRING
*Simply put: Don't connect any part of your DCC system directly to Earth Ground.*
......


----------



## highvoltage

What he is saying is don't add additional grounding, it will create a ground loop. The ground built into the supply cord is all that is necessary.


----------



## time warp

Second time ,Ed. Circuit "ground", or common, is not the same as Line voltage ground.

Keep posting your resume, Einstein. If you know anything about heat pumps you'd know that they operate using the same electrical principles.

I bet you are a real whiz, or wizz, at electrical work based on your double left brained theories.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Ground Loop ??*



highvoltage said:


> What he is saying is don't add additional grounding, it will create a ground loop. The ground built into the supply cord is all that is necessary.


*[highvoltage]: Question (#1)*
Did you go to Mark Gurries web site ??

*[highvoltage]: Question (#2)*
Why are "Hospitals" using switching power supplies,
that are "Medically Grounded" and have "Ultra Low Noise" ??

*[highvoltage]: Question (#3)*
Then why does *[fcwilt]* have all of his power supplies with 3 pronged plugs and all of the outputs "Totally Isolated" from the V-AC Ground ??
......


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *[wvgca]: Question*
> Why are you telling me about basic electrical wiring ??
> I had majored in "Electrical" in High School..
> I also do my own 120V-AC and 240V-AC wiring.. (three-phase heat pump compressor)..


Majored in "Electrical", in high school no less? I bow to all this higher education! 

I'll bet the electrical inspectors would have a field day at your house. 

I do have a question. What household electrical service offers three-phase service? From a quick Internet search (yep, I do know how to use the Internet), Canada has the same single phase 220 electrical service as we use in the US. Do you actually know what three-phase power is?


----------



## johnfl68

Ok, here is one example Switching Power Supply from Delta:

http://www.deltapsu.com/products/download/Datasheet/DRP024V120W1BA










See the dashed line between the Primary and Secondary?
That means that they are isolated. 
*The Grounds are not tied together.*

Also, from Delta's FAQ page:










This is the same for most Switching Power Supplies out there.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Reply..*

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #249*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> Majored in "Electrical", in high school no less? I bow to all this higher education!
> I'll bet the electrical inspectors would have a field day at your house.


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question*
Why are you attacking me *[ED-RRR]* personally about my education ??

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Fact*
I go way above the "Minimum" Canadian Electrical Codes..
I even pipe my own "Natural Gas" pipe lines..
A "Fire Inspector" stated that my gas lines were way "Above" the "Minimum Requirements"..

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #249*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> I do have a question. What household electrical service offers three-phase service? From a quick Internet search
> (yep, I do know how to use the Internet),
> Canada has the same single phase 220 electrical service as we use in the US.
> Do you actually know what three-phase power actually is?


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question*
Why are you "Talking" about 220V-AC (Single Phase) home power supply ??

*[ED-RRR]: Fact*
I was talking about (three-phase heat pump compressor) electric motor..









*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question*
Do you know the "Difference" between 220V-AC (Single Phase) "Home Power Supply" 
- And -
A (Three-Phase) electric motor wiring ??
......


----------



## redman88

Ed you over complicated a simple issue. All you needed to say is 


don't connect the DCC common to house hold ground. As this could cause a ground loop. Which Is not good. Keep reading for the technical data.........


----------



## teledoc

ED, The presumed attacks are generated by YOU. You have a Superiority Complex that you are attempting to stuff down the forum users throats. You are unbending to take any criticism from anyone, nor do you like to be corrected. The small group that keep trying to correct you, are trying to point out that there are other opinions, ideas, and reasonings to this discussion.

You are not Perfect. You are infallible like everyone else. You are not the ultimate authority on this subject.....So Get Over Yourself.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Posted Information..*



teledoc said:


> ED, The presumed attacks are generated by YOU. You have a Superiority Complex that you are attempting to stuff down the forum users throats. You are unbending to take any criticism from anyone, nor do you like to be corrected. The small group that keep trying to correct you, are trying to point out that there are other opinions, ideas, and reasonings to this discussion.
> 
> You are not Perfect. You are infallible like everyone else. You are not the ultimate authority on this subject.....So Get Over Yourself.


*[teledoc]: Question*
*Is any of my posted information --> "Incorrect" ??*
......


----------



## time warp

Wasn't this thread originally about some knee jerk theories about DCC sound?
Now we're on 3 phase "household" heat pumps? 
I......get........it..........:dunno:


----------



## ED-RRR

*Can You Read Correctly ??*



time warp said:


> Wasn't this thread originally about some knee jerk theories about DCC sound?
> Now we're on 3 phase "household" heat pumps?
> I......get........it..........:dunno:


*[time warp]: Look and Read*

*Fact:
[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #249*
Brought up this subject, not me *[ED-RRR]..*
......


----------



## time warp

Yes you did, you brought up the 3 phase heat pump. You are a Champion thread wrecker.
So you have 3 phase power in your house?


----------



## Bwells

Ed: check 3 phase heat pump compressor in post #244, you brought it up.


----------



## ED-RRR

*Fact..*



Bwells said:


> Ed: check 3 phase heat pump compressor in post #244, you brought it up.


*Fact: 
[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #249*
Did "Not" know the "Difference" between
House Wiring -And- Motor Wiring..
......


----------



## wvgca

ED-RRR said:


> *[gunrunnerjohn]: Fact*
> I go way above the "Minimum" Canadian Electrical Codes..
> I even pipe my own "Natural Gas" pipe lines..
> A "Fire Inspector" stated that my gas lines were way "Above" the "Minimum Requirements"..
> 
> 
> *[gunrunnerjohn]: Question*
> Do you know the "Difference" between 220V-AC (Single Phase) "Home Power Supply"
> - And -
> A (Three-Phase) electric motor wiring ??
> ......


Where I'm from, fire inspectors aren't qualified to inspect natural gas installations .. but that's besides he point ...

What I am questioning is your copy / paste of the following from Mark Gurries site .. snip attached 
_"If you decide to buy your own new power supply, your choices will be mostly limited to a Switching Power supply.
If you pick one of suitable power, make sure the power supply AC input only has a 2 prong AC plug (No Earth Ground).
DCC manufacture have moved to these type of Switching Power Supplies.
Avoid using any power supply that requires a 3 prong plug connection.
The 3rd connection is Earth Ground which is not desirable for use in a DCC system_." 
Simply stated, in this regard his statement is slightly ambiguous, and not entirely correct ..just because it's on the internet does not automatically make it correct..


----------



## johnfl68

Actually GunrunnerJohn does know the difference.

Unfortunately ED-RRR you assume that everyone has 3-phase power in their homes, and you are wrong. 

Most of USA and Canada has only 2-phase power to their homes. The use of 3-phase power is mostly restricted to industrial and large building use.

You get your power from (presumably) Kitchener-Wilmot Hydro which is one of the few providers offering 3-phase power for home use.


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## gunrunnerjohn

All I can say is WOW!


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## ED-RRR

*Actual Experience With [DCC]..*

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #230*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> *Like I said, you just don't get it. I don't need any DCC experience to know some of the basic "facts" you've presented are all wet! *
> I don't know what your experience or education is, it seems apparent that it's not electrical engineering.
> 
> I've led a number of projects in aerospace for flight critical electronic systems, including air data computers, primary flight instruments,
> and fuel system measurement and controls. Those are the kind of systems that when they fail, the aircraft is in jeopardy.
> Those systems also receive the highest design assurance level and scrutiny by the FAA before the system is approved for installation on the aircraft.
> If I had your level of competence in electronics, and these systems ever actually made it on an airplane, you'd be hearing about the plane crash in the news!
> 
> You have some warped impression that experience with DCC is necessary to understand basic electronic principles, nothing could be farther from the truth.
> DCC is actually very simple stuff, it's not rocket science!
> 
> I don't doubt you could probably wire up an off the shelf encoder and get it working,
> as long as you didn't apply any of your harebrained home-brew "enhancements". That makes you a junior tech, not an experienced electrical engineer.
> Do yourself and us a big favor, stop trying to prove you're smarter than everyone here, because you're not.


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question #1*
Do "Switching Power Supplies" with high "Noise" (Radio Frequencies Interference) have "No" required applications in the
--> Aerospace Industry ??
--> [DCC] applications ??

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #178*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> Just curious, why is the speaker polarity such a hot button issue? Unless you have multiple speakers, there is very little difference (if any) in the sound of a properly baffled speaker regardless of the polarity of the connections.
> I've done *tests* for O-scale stuff and tried to identify the differences between the polarity of the speaker connection and the sound quality. I, and many other people, are unable to identify any sound quality variance.
> I would venture to say that most HO scale stuff doesn't have multiple speakers, though I can't speak from vast experience.
> _Edit: I see John stepped in and illustrated my point while I was typing. _


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #206*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> I really hate to say it, but you're as dumb as a box of rocks! All the "keep alive" capacitors for audio you've posted are not connected in series with a speaker lead, don't you get it?
> It's a really simple answer, you don't connect them that way. *They're connected internally to the power supply to hold up the DC voltage to the sound generation and amplifier sections that are driving the speakers!*
> I'll say this again, and I'll speak slowly so you may get it regarding your obsession with the speaker polarity.
> SPEAKER POLARITY DOES NOT MATTER!
> Wait a minute, maybe that didn't sink in.
> SPEAKER POLARITY DOES NOT MATTER!
> If you have multiple speakers, the phasing does matter, all of them should be connected "in phase". Use your prodigious Internet copy-n-paste skills and look that up.
> If you think about it, any waveform driving them will have a pretty symmetrical count of positive and negative half cycles of largely similar amplitude, so there is no real reason why the speaker moving back, at a time when the diaphragm in the microphone that made the original recording was moving forward, should have any effect. The 'scope trace of the symmetry of the waveform was already posted, I guess you didn't understand what you saw.


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question #2*
Why does TCS have a "Keep Alive" --> *(Only A Speaker Capacitor)..*
Why is TCS "Only" stating (Keep your "Sounds" going even over troublesome rails) ??









*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question #3*
Why are you stating that "Speaker Polarity" is "Not" important for [DCC] "Sound" ?? 

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Question #4*
Why then does SoundTraxx have a Technical Note #9 --> Stating the importance of "Correct" speaker polarity ??
Speaker Polarity..
SoundTraxx:
http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tech_note 9.pdf

The industry convention for speaker polarity is to label the speaker terminals such that if a
positive DC voltage is applied to the speaker’s positive terminal, the speaker diaphragm will
push out away from the speaker magnet. However, not all speaker manufacturers label the
terminals.
It is easy to identify the polarity of an unlabeled speaker with a 1.5V battery by connecting
the negative lead of the battery to one of the speaker terminals and the positive lead of the
battery to the other speaker terminal and observing which way the speaker cone travels. If
it moves out, then the positive speaker terminal is the one connected to the positive battery
lead. Otherwise, if the cone moves in, it can be surmised that the positive battery lead is
connected to the speaker’s negative terminal. 









*Facts:*
Correct speaker polarity is required..
To improve [DCC] "Sound" a "Speaker Baffle" is used..








......


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## wvgca

ED-RRR , the image you show of checking a speaker for directional movement is correct, as the the battery is in parallel, not series ..


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## CTValleyRR

Bwells said:


> Ed: check 3 phase heat pump compressor in post #244, you brought it up.


And just to prove what a slimy scumbag you really are (no, that's not a personal attack, that's the polite phrasing of my opinion of you), you have now EDITED post #244, at 11:37 today (7 minutes after Bwells pointed out your attempt at blame shifting), to remove the reference.

Not only can't you admit to a mistake, but you are also apparently very accomplished at hiding them. How on earth did you get through a professional career thumping your chest and telling everyone how smart you were while covering up your mistakes. Or is this new behavior that came on you after you retired?!?


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## CTValleyRR

ED-RRR;1317065[B said:


> [gunrunnerjohn]: Question #3[/B]
> Why are you stating that "Speaker Polarity" is "Not" important for [DCC] "Sound" ??
> 
> *[gunrunnerjohn]: Question #4*
> Why then does SoundTraxx have a Technical Note #9 --> Stating the importance of "Correct" speaker polarity ??
> Speaker Polarity..
> SoundTraxx:
> http://www.soundtraxx.com/manuals/Tech_note 9.pdf
> 
> The industry convention for speaker polarity is to label the speaker terminals such that if a
> positive DC voltage is applied to the speaker’s positive terminal, the speaker diaphragm will
> push out away from the speaker magnet. However, not all speaker manufacturers label the
> terminals.
> It is easy to identify the polarity of an unlabeled speaker with a 1.5V battery by connecting
> the negative lead of the battery to one of the speaker terminals and the positive lead of the
> battery to the other speaker terminal and observing which way the speaker cone travels. If
> it moves out, then the positive speaker terminal is the one connected to the positive battery
> lead. Otherwise, if the cone moves in, it can be surmised that the positive battery lead is
> connected to the speaker’s negative terminal.
> 
> View attachment 227297
> 
> 
> *Facts:*
> Correct speaker polarity is required..
> To improve [DCC] "Sound" a "Speaker Baffle" is used..
> 
> View attachment 227305
> 
> ......


And in another amazing display of a reading comprehension level somewhat below 10%...

The referenced technical note does indeed show how to identify the polarity of the speaker, but doesn't actually say anything about its importance. 

And a sound baffle, while important, has nothing to do with polarity.

But I don't know why I waste my time. You will either insult me, ignore me, or post several more reams of irrelevant BS in an attempt to disguise your mistake.


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## fcwilt

ED--RRR,

You continually shoot yourself in the foot.

I stated that you lacked the knowledge to fully understand what you read and that you draw incorrect conclusions from what you read because of that lack of knowledge.


Under the conditions that I and others have specified speaker polarity is not important. As a rebuttal you provide a tech note claiming it says how important speaker polarity is. Did you read the tech note? Where is the word important? The tech note provides certain information about speakers and polarity and that is all.

This is an example of what I am talking about. The existence of this tech note does not imply that speaker polarity is of vital importance in all cases. But that seems to be your conclusion.

Which is wrong.


I believe these are your words and not MGs but it is not completely clear.

_Avoid using any power supply that requires a 3 prong plug connection.
The 3rd connection is Earth Ground which is not desirable for use in a DCC system. 
_

If you understand the issues there is no reason to exclude a power supply just because it has a three pronged plug.

The second statement is so ambiguous as to be of no value.


You posted MG answers to a question and his answer is basically correct. 

We understand what he is saying and the implications there of.

I doubt that you do based on your remarks.


We are all trying to help you learn and you seem to be fighting us tooth and nail.

Frederick


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## time warp

ED! You phony!:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
CT is right! You creep, you edited your own mistaken information braggart [fact]!
So, since we've all enjoyed, and will cherish, this pleasant romp through fact ville, maybe you could start yet another thread. Maybe the topic could be step down transformers for 480 volt 600 amp DCC operations. Pull it off the ' net. I bet you can find it. Better yet , maybe you're the one that needs the net. A butterfly net.


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## ED-RRR

*Holly Crap.. --> Way Off Subject..*

*[johnfl68]: Posting #261*


johnfl68 said:


> Actually GunrunnerJohn does know the difference.
> Unfortunately ED-RRR you assume that everyone has 3-phase power in their homes, and you are wrong.
> Most of USA and Canada has *only 2-phase power to their homes. *
> The use of 3-phase power is mostly restricted to industrial and large building use.
> You get your power from (presumably) Kitchener-Wilmot Hydro which is one of the few providers offering 3-phase power for home use.


*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #262*


gunrunnerjohn said:


> All I can say is WOW!


*Fact:*
*[johnfl68]* and *[gunrunnerjohn]..*
Learn how "Electric Motors" actually function..
Electric motor "Phasing" has "Nothing" to do with "Voltage" input.. 
How many "Outer Magnets" are used and how many "Armature Contacts" determines what type of "Electric Motor Phasing" is used..
*
Fact: (#3)*
This has "Absolutely" nothing to do with [DCC] how "Noise" effects [DCC] components ??
......


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## fcwilt

ED-RRR,

Do all motors have "outer magnets" and "armature contacts"?

Frederick


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## ED-RRR

CTValleyRR said:


> And just to prove what a slimy scumbag you really are (no, that's not a personal attack, that's the polite phrasing of my opinion of you), *you have now EDITED post #244, at 11:37 today (7 minutes after Bwells pointed out your attempt at blame shifting), to remove the reference.*
> Not only can't you admit to a mistake, but you are also apparently very accomplished at hiding them. How on earth did you get through a professional career thumping your chest and telling everyone how smart you were while covering up your mistakes. Or is this new behavior that came on you after you retired?!?


*Fact: (#1)*
I only stated this as doing my own house wiring.. (Reference Only)..

*[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #249*
Brought up this subject, not me *[ED-RRR]..*

*Fact: (#2)*
I deleted my personnel "Home" electrical wiring experience,
because many individuals "Only" dwelled on this subject..

*Fact: (#3)*
Again - This has "Absolutely" nothing to do with [DCC]..
......


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## wvgca

Seeing as how this has gone -slightly- off topic ...
I had a question for ED-RRR
I was just wondering if he had "voluntarily" retired


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## wvgca

On the left hand side of each message, under the user name, there is a title that refers to the number of posts made ..
Ed's is currently "Engineer" ..
My question is: How hard would it be to change it to .....
"Caution: Does not play well with others"

,,, just sayin'.....


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## johnfl68

wvgca said:


> On the left hand side of each message, under the user name, there is a title that refers to the number of posts made ..
> Ed's is currently "Engineer" ..
> My question is: How hard would it be to change it to .....
> "Caution: Does not play well with others"
> 
> ,,, just sayin'.....


As a vBulletin Admin myself (with other forums), this is a very easy thing to do. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR

ED, you are a bald faced liar. The only thing worse than a liar is a BAD liar.



ED-RRR said:


> *Fact: (#1)*
> I only stated this as doing my own house wiring.. (Reference Only)..
> 
> *[gunrunnerjohn]: Posting #249*
> Brought up this subject, not me *[ED-RRR]..*


GRJ did NOT bring up the 3 phase heat pump, you did -- in post #244, which HE quoted in post #249, although you subsequently edited the offending statement out of your own previous post. GRJ couldn't have quoted it if you hadn't made it, and time warp wouldn't have referred to it in post #247 if you hadn't.



ED-RRR said:


> *Fact: (#2)*
> I deleted my personnel "Home" electrical wiring experience,
> because many individuals "Only" dwelled on this subject..


Except that you offered this irrelevant tidbit in an attempt to justify obvious factual deficiencies in your previous postings, so again, this was YOUR doing, not anyone else's.



ED-RRR said:


> *Fact: (#3)*
> Again - This has "Absolutely" nothing to do with [DCC]..
> ......


Gotta hand that one to you! You correctly identified a "fact". One problem, though: all the irrelevant information in this thread is there because YOU introduced it in an attempt to divert attention from your factual errors.


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## CTValleyRR

johnfl68 said:


> As a vBulletin Admin myself (with other forums), this is a very easy thing to do. :smilie_daumenpos:


Actually, it was MUCH better when it said, "Banned". Why not make THAT happen?


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## wvgca

CTValleyRR said:


> Gotta hand that one to you! You correctly identified a "fact". One problem, though: all the irrelevant information in this thread is there because YOU introduced it in an attempt to divert attention from your factual errors.


Occasionally I get cocky and 'full of it',
but it's amusing to watch an "expert" at it ..
or is the term "Ed's-pert" ?

I may get some 'correction' on this post


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## CTValleyRR

wvgca said:


> Occasionally I get cocky and 'full of it',
> but it's amusing to watch an "expert" at it ..
> or is the term "Ed's-pert" ?
> 
> I may get some 'correction' on this post


I have an expression I use with my sons (and their buddies in Boy Scouts): TCBW -- "Teenagers Can't Be Wrong!"

This refers to their tendency to spin wild tales, make amazing twists in interpretation, and other mental gymnastics, even up to making themselves look like complete morons, in an attempt to avoid admitting a mistake. Rather than continue the conversation, I just say "TCBW" and walk away.

Maybe we should just end threads with "ECBW" -- ED Can't Be Wrong.


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## fcwilt

I for one enjoy ED-RRR and his posts and the results thereof.

But I also like disaster movies so perhaps that has something to do with it.

Frederick


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## wvgca

fcwilt said:


> I for one enjoy ED-RRR and his posts and the results thereof.
> 
> But I also like disaster movies so perhaps that has something to do with it.
> 
> Frederick


That's one of the reasons that I enjoy this forum, and visit daily ...off topic posts ... amusing banter [usually harmless] ..and definitely the most mellow moderators around :thumbsup:


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## time warp

Warren, could you show us the circuit and component list for a 3 phase, heat pump controlled medical power supplied series sound capacitor DCC keep alive low cost sound decoder with a 2 prong plug?
Thanks!


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## fcwilt

wvgca said:


> That's one of the reasons that I enjoy this forum, and visit daily ...off topic posts ... amusing banter [usually harmless] ..and definitely the most mellow moderators around :thumbsup:


+1000 on the "mellow moderators".

Some forums are so tightly controlled that the fun and humanity is gone.

Frederick


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## fcwilt

time warp said:


> Warren, could you show us the circuit and component list for a 3 phase, heat pump controlled medical power supplied series sound capacitor DCC keep alive low cost sound decoder with a 2 prong plug?
> Thanks!


Does it have to be have a 2 prong plug - a unit like that with a 2 prong is really rare.


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## johnfl68

time warp said:


> Warren, could you show us the circuit and component list for a 3 phase, heat pump controlled medical power supplied series sound capacitor DCC keep alive low cost sound decoder with a 2 prong plug?
> Thanks!


Is that 3-phase WYE or 3-phase Delta?


.


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## CTValleyRR

fcwilt said:


> I for one enjoy ED-RRR and his posts and the results thereof.
> 
> But I also like disaster movies so perhaps that has something to do with it.
> 
> Frederick


It's amusing, sure.

But helpful? Not so much.


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> Warren, could you show us the circuit and component list for a 3 phase, heat pump controlled medical power supplied series sound capacitor DCC keep alive low cost sound decoder with a 2 prong plug?
> Thanks!



Sorry .. no can do ...my mumblifier shorted out at post #244 ..
Also ED-RRR is the expert on those [but only in serial mode] ..


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## redman88

wvgca said:


> Sorry .. no can do ...my mumblifier shorted out at post #244 ..
> Also ED-RRR is the expert on those [but only in serial mode] ..




With a speaker.


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## fcwilt

CTValleyRR said:


> It's amusing, sure.
> 
> But helpful? Not so much.


I will admit there is a lot of "noise" in these threads but I have actually learned a thing or two from other forum members.

Frederick


----------



## time warp

johnfl68 said:


> Is that 3-phase WYE or 3-phase Delta?
> 
> 
> .


 Wye Delta? I don't care for Southwest.


----------



## CTValleyRR

time warp said:


> Wye Delta? I don't care for Southwest.


Tee-dum-dum.... clash!!!!:hah:


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## CTValleyRR

fcwilt said:


> I will admit there is a lot of "noise" in these threads but I have actually learned a thing or two from other forum members.
> 
> Frederick


True, dat!


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## highvoltage

ED-RRR said:


> *[highvoltage]: Question (#1)*
> Did you go to Mark Gurries web site ??


#1, no I read his statements within your post. If you copy and pasted correctly then there is no need to go to his website. I was responding to his statement that you quoted



ED-RRR said:


> *[highvoltage]: Question (#2)*
> Why are "Hospitals" using switching power supplies,
> that are "Medically Grounded" and have "Ultra Low Noise" ??


#2, what does this have to do with DCC?



ED-RRR said:


> *[highvoltage]: Question (#3)*
> Then why does *[fcwilt]* have all of his power supplies with 3 pronged plugs and all of the outputs "Totally Isolated" from the V-AC Ground ??
> ......


#3, I have no idea what fcwilt has, I have never seen his layout.


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## wvgca

time warp said:


> Warren, could you show us the circuit and component list for a 3 phase, heat pump controlled medical power supplied series sound capacitor DCC keep alive low cost sound decoder with a 2 prong plug?
> Thanks!


I have looked at this post quite a few times today ...
And realized something ...
It makes more sense, and is easier to understand compared to most of ED-RRR's posts .... sigh ..

If I get flack about this, I'll just edit it out, and pretend that I never said it ")


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## time warp

fcwilt said:


> Does it have to be have a 2 prong plug - a unit like that with a 2 prong is really rare.


You know what they say: 3 prongs are too many, 1 prong is too few.

How about T- shirts? They should read"I posted on an ED- RRR thread and lived to tell about it"


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

ED-RRR said:


> *[gunrunnerjohn]: Question*
> Why are you "Talking" about 220V-AC (Single Phase) home power supply ??
> 
> *[ED-RRR]: Fact*
> I was talking about (three-phase heat pump compressor) electric motor..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *[gunrunnerjohn]: Question*
> Do you know the "Difference" between 220V-AC (Single Phase) "Home Power Supply"
> - And -
> A (Three-Phase) electric motor wiring ??
> ......


Are you sure you don't want to edit this post to remove your misunderstanding of single-phase and three phase power?  BTW, my house has three heat pumps for heading/cooling, and there isn't any three-phase power in sight, nor is it needed. 

A quote for you, help in understanding three-phase power.



> In a symmetric three-phase power supply system, three conductors each carry an alternating current of the same frequency and voltage amplitude relative to a common reference but with a phase difference of one third the period. The common reference is usually connected to ground and often to a current-carrying conductor called the neutral. Due to the phase difference, the voltage on any conductor reaches its peak at one third of a cycle after one of the other conductors and one third of a cycle before the remaining conductor. This phase delay gives constant power transfer to a balanced linear load. It also makes it possible to produce a rotating magnetic field in an electric motor and generate other phase arrangements using transformers (For instance, a two phase system using a Scott-T transformer).


To wrap up, I used 3-phase power extensively when I worked for IBM, all the IBM mainframes were powered by three-phase power. In smaller applications, We used a lot of three-phase current in synchro applications for avionics applications, many positioning signals before the digital revolution in avionics used synchro signals. So you see, not only do I under stand three-phase power, but I've used it extensively in my work.


----------



## Bwells

time warp said:


> You know what they say: 3 prongs are too many, 1 prong is too few.
> 
> How about T- shirts? They should read"I posted on an ED- RRR thread and lived to tell about it"



I think the phrase is "two is company, three is a crowd". If Ed is so worried about the third prong, simply take a pair or pliers and wiggle slightly from side to side and it will come off easily. Case closed two pages ago. Simple solutions for simple people.


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## fcwilt

Bwells said:


> I think the phrase is "two is company, three is a crowd". If Ed is so worried about the third prong, simply take a pair or pliers and wiggle slightly from side to side and it will come off easily. Case closed two pages ago. Simple solutions for simple people.


Except now you have lost your protective ground - generally not a good idea.

Frederick


----------



## johnfl68

time warp said:


> How about T- shirts? They should read"I posted on an ED- RRR thread and lived to tell about it"













.


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## time warp

johnfl68 said:


> .


 PERFECT!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, it's certainly been fun, but I think we've had enough fun. Time to close this and move on.


----------

