# Landscaping / Terrain Forming



## ElSimon

So, I have the first level mostly laid out. I only need to add a couple of sidings. Right now it is only temporary. I am ready to take it all apart and permanently glue this first level all down. I will then be ready to start laying out the second level. (There will be three levels of track).

Originally I had planned to have all the track in place before I started to do the scenery. After reading few posts here and on other sites I am thinking I should have all the land forms done before I lay the track. Here are a couple of pics I took today. The far end of the layout will be a mountain. The farthest track will be in a tunnel. The next loop will be in a cut in the mountain. There will be ridge across the middle the layout with tunnels and cuts between the two sections. In the middle of the far loop there will be a lake cut into the 3/4" foam that is the base of the layout. The near loop will have the small town / village in it.

Can I wait to do the landforming until all the track is laid or should I do the land forming before I lay the track?


----------



## tankist

Terrain shape first, track later. Patience is a virtue that eapecially pays off in this hobby . My 2cents


----------



## ElSimon

Thanks Tankist for your thoughts. 

My concern has been that I have so many curves, rises and turnouts I want to be sure it will all work when I am done. If I install all the land contours I may actually run into a situation where I need to undo some of the contours to get the track to work. I also have so many pieces of track that trying to keep track of which piece goes where could be a nightmare. Would it be a good idea to lay it all out and have it running and then disassemble it to create the land form? Perhaps IF I get to a point where I do need to undo or recreate some of the land contour It might only be a small section and would relatively easy to fix or correct for the track to work.

Perhaps now that I have as much as I have done I can label the track and disassemble it. I can then permanently install the land forms and contour them where I need to. Since this first level is probably the most important (the most turnouts) and I know it is working. I can then install all the land contours for this level then add the contours for the next 2 levels and the mountains where they will need to go. At that point I can reinstall the current track and then add on what needs to be added to the top level.

Does anyone else have any ideas that I could consider?


----------



## tjcruiser

ElSim,

Nice job on the ramped foam risers.

One thought to consider ... given that you'll have track inside a curved, ramped tunnel, how to you plan to access this longterm? If it was my doing, I'd try to make a section of the hilltop removable in some way so that you could access the track and cars. If so, this might facilitate the sequence in which you build hills / lay track, etc.

TJ


----------



## tankist

oh, ok , what you were talking is prototyping your curves and slopes, not installing track. definitely put the track on you terrain and check that things work out in the difficult sections. but i wouldn't anything permanent at this point though at this point


----------



## ElSimon

This is why I like sites like this! I learn and hopefully I can help others too. I had already planned to make the tops of the hills and mountains removeable. Just imagine a derailment in the middle of the tunnel. This is N scale. I am not sure my newest granddaughter could reach in and grab the train!

I am leary of prototyping too much at one time. That is why I threw out the idea of taking what I have now that does run and making it more permanent. The train has been making loops around the board for about an hour at different speeds and I am pleased with it so far. Once this first level is secured and looking like real terrain I will prototype the next level. The first level does not have any trestles...yet. Any that I add will be short to span a potential river outlet from the lake. I can add this later.

Perhaps with the first level tested I should just bite the bullet and start installing the rest of the terrain and make it work. I need to do some more research on what materials to use to do the contours. I also need to find a good source for trestle material and templates. I have seen a few and just need to bite the bullet.


----------



## ElSimon

Okay, I am back at it. Per another post I made I enlarged my layout from 3' x 7' to a full 4' x 8'. WOW!!! What a difference the added 1' in width and length makes.
Status:
1 - I have most of the main parts of the layout. Most of this was done with foam saved from my first attempt. Another good reason to only use pins to hold pieces down until you know how you want it.
2 - I have purchased some raw lumber to build my trestles. These are still in design mode.

I plan on taking some pictures tonight and will post them.

Here are a few questions I have:
1. Last week we were backpacking in Yosemite and camping in the valley. For those who have been there you know there are tunnels and bridges. The face of the tunnel openings is made from cut native granite as are the sides of the bridges. I have taken pictures of these as I would like to incorporate this style on my layout. How do I do this? I am trying to copy both the texture and depth of the granite. I am only running N scale so I do not have a lot of room to work with.

2. I took damp paper towels and draped them over the foam risers to see how this would look and form to the foam. After they dried I checked on them to see how they were. They kept, for the most part, the form of the foam. My concern is when I use plaster of paris to actually create the land form will the paper towels stick to the foam? I do not want things to flake off now or later. Is plaster of paris the best thing to use?


----------



## Big Ed

Here are a few questions I have:
1. Last week we were backpacking in Yosemite and camping in the valley. For those who have been there you know there are tunnels and bridges. The face of the tunnel openings is made from cut native granite as are the sides of the bridges. I have taken pictures of these as I would like to incorporate this style on my layout. How do I do this? I am trying to copy both the texture and depth of the granite. I am only running N scale so I do not have a lot of room to work with.


Do you have pictures of them?
I never been there.


----------



## ElSimon

Not here at work. I will post them when I post what I have done tonight.


----------



## Big Ed

ElSimon said:


> Not here at work. I will post them when I post what I have done tonight.


OK, no hurry. 
I enjoy looking at where others have been.
Especially if I have never been there. 

They do sell molds for rock formations. I don't know if they would be good for what you want to do.


Now, GET BACK TO WORK!:laugh:


----------



## ElSimon

Here is the layout as it stands. The next post will show the tunnels and bridges.

The last picture shows a solid block of foam which is only taking the place of the eventual lengthy trestle.

I can get the the link to show up in the post but how do I get the actual picture to show up?


----------



## ElSimon

Here is the pictures of the tunnels and bridges. There were 3 tunnels we took pictures of but only one bridge I have several views of the bridge but only one of each of the tunnels.


----------



## tjcruiser

ElSimon,

Nice job on the handmade curved risers. What tool were you using to cut the notches?

Those Yosemite tunnel portals are quite beautiful. That said, the cut stone faces are reasonably flush, with tight mortar joints. If you wanted to model that look (even in N), I think you might be able to carve most of that contouring into foam itself (Dremel, etc.), then add a bit of texture (if needed) with plaster or caulk. A multitoned (greyish, of course) paint job would blend things in, but also bring out textured highllghts.

Just a thought ...

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## tjcruiser

Oh ... forgot to answer your question about imbedding photos ...

After you've attached a photo (which you have), click on the icon to view the photo in it's own window. Highlight and Ctrl-C copy the full URL path at the top of your web browser. Next, click on the little "mountain" icon here in the forum editor ... you might need to "go advanced" to see that option. That'll pop up a little dialog box where you Ctrl-V paste the URL address of the photo. Click OK, and the photo should now be imbedded directly into the post.

TJ


----------



## tooter

I just paste the picture's URL (internet address) and add *







* 

For example, I copied your attached picture's URL from it's properties file:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3672&d=1279667468

Then put *







* on the right side... and bingo, there it is. 










That's beautiful mason craftsmanship, by the way.:thumbsup:


----------



## tjcruiser

Greg ... good points about the


----------



## ElSimon

If my memory serves me right the tunnels were built during the depression by the CCC. Back when there were craftsmen who cared about the job. It was important to them to maintain the integrity of the landscaping.

What I have been thinking about is to continue to build the terrain and then add a "face" to the front of the tunnels with the rock look. I have been looking for something that is 1/8"-1/4" thick to mold / cut / carve / shape / etc. into the form I want. It will also allow me to paint and texture it away from the actual site and I should have the room to paint it without overspray. Does anyone have ideas of what I could use in that thickness?

For the risers I took 1" and 2" thick foam and built a jig for my table saw which lets me cut the grade. Then I bought a hot knife from Harbour Frieght and depending on how tight I need the curve I cut the slots close or farther apart (usually 1.5-2"). I cut the depth just by eyeballing it. I have thought of building a jig that will evenly space the slots and limit the depth too....time. 

Any thoughts on my question no. 2 (post #7)?

I am hoping that if we don't go camping this weekend (state holiday Friday we may leave on Thursday) I might be able to get started glueing foam together!

Almost getting giddy!


----------



## Big Ed

Nice pictures of the tunnels. I guess you are going to have to carve them as the only ones you can buy all have smaller stone.

A few. In all I found none had the large stone.

http://www.sceneryexpress.com/products.asp?dept=1065


----------



## ElSimon

I really like the look of the larger rock. It doesn't look "fabricated". It is also how moct tunnels out here in the West were made (that I have noticed). New tunnels were made casting concrete though.

I will just have to try some things and see what I can come up with.

Thanks for the comments.


----------



## tjcruiser

ElSimon,

Thanks for the riser construction description ... nice work.

Re: your prior question about plaster coverings... I have no direct experience there, but I know that Woodland Scenics makes a plaster-impregnated cloth specifically for that purpose ... item # 785-1203 on the Walthers website.

They (WS) also make "Mold-A-Scene Plaster" that "can be shaped without a mold like modeling clay. It's longer setting time allows modelers to add terrain contours ..." ... might work for your tunnel portal ... item # 785-1202

(Again, no recommendations here on my part ... I've never used the above.)

I do have experience with boxwood, used commonly in the model ship world to carve intricate parts. If you can get your hands on some small planks, the stuff carves beautifully, allowing nice detailing.

TJ


----------



## wayne wilson

I always found making rock castings pretty easy stuff, and a mold can be turned just a bit this way or that, and it'll appear as an entirely different slab. Intricate stuff like the tunnel entrance always seemed easier to do in automotive body putty. Trowel on the form and carve away when it hardens..texture can be done with plaster wash or something similar. Bondo is nice and easy to carve, and it sticks like a bear...strong too


----------



## ElSimon

If you use Bond-O for the "rocks" what do use for the actual mold? Keep in mind I am use N scale so the "rocks" will be relatively small.

As I have looked at the layout tonight I realized I need to have two tunnels, at least for now. One will be single wide on one end and then double wide at the other. The second tunnel will be a double at both ends. Still debating on some of the other places where a track will pass over another track or road. I can either go with a short tunnel, a suspension bridge or a trestle bridge. I may decide that later.

This weekend I will start to glue the foam down and start adding actual land forms. Although I have not seen a honey-do list I am sure I will get one at some point this weekend. It is a 3 day weekend so there could be a lot to do. I also hope to excavate out the lake. The foam on the base is 1/2" thick and where the lake will be will have the foam removed to add depth. Then filled with clear polyurethane in layers.

I will take pictures of my progress and post them.


----------



## Reckers

Wayne, that piqued my curiousity, too. Are you molding Bondo in the conventional rubber molds? How are you keeping it from sticking to the mold? Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## wayne wilson

I lived in the hills of north eastern Pa, so rocks were everywhere. The molds I made were of the latex "death mask" style. The bondo is far too sticky to cast with. I was thinking more of rough forming the portals in foam or wood then filling or coating generously with Bondo. Once hardened it is super easy to carve and will hold detalis well. I've also "poured'' a bed of Bondo and pressed Magnusen block walls into it making a negative of the wall to pour several more copies(in plaster) . That worked pretty well also. If you go to my FB page (wayne wilson...new white Land Rover as my avatar) look thru the pictures, you'll understand why I came to work with body putty so much  Check out the '55 convertable with the W-26 Firebird running gear....Just finished the build in June *****That '54 Travelall (Suburban) is next


----------



## ElSimon

Okay, I took lots of pictures but alas I forgot my camera and left it at home. I will have to post them tomorrow.

Here is what I got done, by the way I love long weekends:

1. I got most of the foam risers glued down. At least the ones where I know where they will go. I still have a couple of places that are questionable.

2. I started to add form to the foam. I mixed up plaster of paris on the thin side and then soaked paper towels in the mixture. Once the paper towels were coated with the mixture I laid them on the foam. I am pleased with how it is looking. It adds a new perspective to the layout. I can actually visualize how it will look. It has also shown me where I need to add foam for contouring between tracks and to add realism. The second batch of plaster of paris was mixed too thick and started to set up before I could get it all spread out. The third batch was closer to the first but still set quicker than I wanted.

3. I built the tops to the tunnels. These will be removable to do track work or retrieve a lost train. The length of one of the tunnels is about 90" long. It goes around a full 90 degree turn and part of another. I cut the top piece into 3 sections. These tops will have their own contours to show additional mountain above the level of track.

4. If you look at the first picture in post #11 you will see the main train yard in the lower right corner of the layout. This has perplexed me as there will be track on the foam above this. I came up with the idea of making this train yard a covered one. There is a window from the outside looking in. I will add lights on the inside of the cover and this train yard will apear as if it were a seperate building and with the lights I can make it as visible as I want.

Now for the questions of this post:
1. Is it possible to sand down the plaster of paris soaked paper towels after they have dried? I didn't get them all as flat as I wanted before they started to harden. I am hoping I can just sand them down and then maybe add a slight coat of plaster of paris to smooth it all out and raise the low spots.
2. I haven't tried but how well does plaster of paris stick to this pink foam. I found a couple of places that look like it might peal away too easy.

I appreciate all the feedback and I will keep posting what I find out in the hopes it will help others. Sorry this was long.


----------



## tankist

1. try it. whats the worst that will happen.
2. depends. if you finished the foam surface properly - scarred it with various groves and crannies so plaster has something to grab when solid then it will grab as strong as the foam (the old pieces i had to remove have remnants of foam). if you slap it on smooth surface of cource it will stick poorly.


PS,
with spline mesh technique i get, but i don't understand why would one use paper towels with foam construction. if texture is desired plaster of paris can be worked directly on foam. 









if texture is not required (grassy hill , etc) foam can be smoothed out with wallboard joint compound , much less hasle then plaster of paris


----------



## ElSimon

As you look at the pictures keep these thoughts in mind:

Types of bridges I can build:
1. Rock. This would match the tunnel openings.
2. Wrought iron.
3. Trestle.
4. Wood log.
5. Others?



Picture 31.
You will see in the upper left corner a triangle area. I am thinking about filling this area in to the level of the riser with the notch in it. The notch is for the inlet river that will flow down the mountain. I can make a waterfall at the mountain to this new level and then another waterfall as it gets to the rail bridge I need to build then dropping down into the lake. As you can see I do not have the foam secured on the right side of the "S" curve. I am not sure how I want to do this yet. You will notice opposite the parking lot there is a slight riser. This is for the road. I need a "T" from this road into the area that will be the town.

Questions:
1. What type of bridge would you put over the river / waterfall?
2. How would you do the road access into the town? Car tunnel or rail bridge.
3. Should I put a mountain lake on the added triangle piece? I could even set up a back country camp site!

Picture 32.
By the "Beach" there will be a siding to bring passengers to the resort. You see the end of the riser on the left. The track needs to continue rising to the near end. There is a 2" wide piece of foam on its edge that shows where the track will continue. In the lake is the piece of foam that came out of where the river exits the lake. I can still use this as needed.

Questions:
1. What type of bridge would you put over the river? Remember that the river continues so the lower tracks also need to go over the river.
2. Should I make a trestle that goes all the way along the left side for the track from the end of the riser to the far end of the track where it crosses over the double track (see picture 24).

Picture 24.
This shows the complete layout. I added some blocks to show the area in the middle where I could fill it in and have land forms. With the windows in the sides of the board on the right side I want to have as much of the layout visible as possible. I am not sure I want to block the views with land form. I could build a VERY long trestle from the inside curve at the lower end of the layout that goes all the way to the other end before dropping down. You can also see the upper right corner where I will have the covered train yard.

Questions:
1. Do I leave the blocks out and build the long trestle or do I break the trestle up into sections with a land form in the middle?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## tankist

El, please embed the pictures into the post itself (how to instructions can be seen here http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2595). it will be easier to adress your questions. also please rotate them before you do,


----------



## ElSimon

One more try to get the pictures to show up. I'm still learning this thread thing. Thanks for the help. I am slow to learn these things. Comes from having grandkids I guess. I may have to try to get them to do it.

As you look at the pictures keep these thoughts in mind:

Types of bridges I can build:
1. Rock. This would match the tunnel openings.
2. Wrought iron.
3. Trestle.
4. Wood log.
5. Others?










Picture 31.
You will see in the upper left corner a triangle area. I am thinking about filling this area in to the level of the riser with the notch in it. The notch is for the inlet river that will flow down the mountain. I can make a waterfall at the mountain to this new level and then another waterfall as it gets to the rail bridge I need to build then dropping down into the lake. As you can see I do not have the foam secured on the right side of the "S" curve. I am not sure how I want to do this yet. You will notice opposite the parking lot there is a slight riser. This is for the road. I need a "T" from this road into the area that will be the town.

Questions:
1. What type of bridge would you put over the river / waterfall?
2. How would you do the road access into the town? Car tunnel or rail bridge.
3. Should I put a mountain lake on the added triangle piece? I could even set up a back country camp site!









Picture 32.
By the "Beach" there will be a siding to bring passengers to the resort. You see the end of the riser on the left. The track needs to continue rising to the near end. There is a 2" wide piece of foam on its edge that shows where the track will continue. In the lake is the piece of foam that came out of where the river exits the lake. I can still use this as needed.

Questions:
1. What type of bridge would you put over the river? Remember that the river continues so the lower tracks also need to go over the river.
2. Should I make a trestle that goes all the way along the left side for the track from the end of the riser to the far end of the track where it crosses over the double track (see picture 24).









Picture 24.
This shows the complete layout. I added some blocks to show the area in the middle where I could fill it in and have land forms. With the windows in the sides of the board on the right side I want to have as much of the layout visible as possible. I am not sure I want to block the views with land form. I could build a VERY long trestle from the inside curve at the lower end of the layout that goes all the way to the other end before dropping down. You can also see the upper right corner where I will have the covered train yard.

Questions:
1. Do I leave the blocks out and build the long trestle or do I break the trestle up into sections with a land form in the middle?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## tankist

ElSimon said:


> Picture 31.
> 
> You will see in the upper left corner a triangle area. I am thinking about filling this area in to the level of the riser with the notch in it. The notch is for the inlet river that will flow down the mountain. I can make a waterfall at the mountain to this new level and then another waterfall as it gets to the rail bridge I need to build then dropping down into the lake. As you can see I do not have the foam secured on the right side of the "S" curve. I am not sure how I want to do this yet. You will notice opposite the parking lot there is a slight riser. This is for the road. I need a "T" from this road into the area that will be the town.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. What type of bridge would you put over the river / waterfall?
> 2. How would you do the road access into the town? Car tunnel or rail bridge.
> 3. Should I put a mountain lake on the added triangle piece? I could even set up a back country camp site!


i would place the river into a larger culvert and keep the track above without a bridge. as for the rest, your ideas are viable, is really up to you to decide what scene you want.




> Picture 32.
> By the "Beach" there will be a siding to bring passengers to the resort. You see the end of the riser on the left. The track needs to continue rising to the near end. There is a 2" wide piece of foam on its edge that shows where the track will continue. In the lake is the piece of foam that came out of where the river exits the lake. I can still use this as needed.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. What type of bridge would you put over the river? Remember that the river continues so the lower tracks also need to go over the river.
> 2. Should I make a trestle that goes all the way along the left side for the track from the end of the riser to the far end of the track where it crosses over the double track (see picture 24).


depends on your era. i would proably do deck truss for the upper one and through truss for the lower one. or a girder. or trestle,again, i can't know what do you like

last question i will omit and instead offer you this:
http://www.carrtracks.com/brdgndx.htm - collection of actual railroad bridges for you to look at and pick.

http://pghbridges.com/basics.htm - bridge building basics (linked from first one as well.)


----------



## tjcruiser

ElSim,

Good questions, but answers should really be dictated by your overall vision and personal preferences.

As far as bridge construction material ...

You seem to be drawn to the stone Yosemite tunnel aesthetics, and an arch stone bridge might echo that theme. However, I suspect that any real-life arch stone RR bridge would be of short span, and subject to high loading (with oscillatory loads), and ultimately a maintenance headache. Anton's right ... bridge consruction method should be driven by your intended modeled era.

Re: "road access", I'm not sure I quite yet follow your intended roadway path. Maybe sketch this up a bit on your end?

Good luck!

TJ


----------



## ElSimon

Okay this may come across as weird or non typical for model railroaders but this is just the way I see it.

I am new to the whole idea of modeling a particular era, location etc. Growing up my father had a 4' x 8' HO train that was never detailed. it had 3 siding we would use to rearrange the cars on to create a predetermined order. Then we would watch the train go around the circuit time and time again.

I have looked at mine as a project to combine the attributes my father had and the reasons for it with some realism with scenery and actual contours of land features.

Yes I am infatuated with the tunnels we saw in Yosemite. I want to model some of this into my layout. I do not however what this to be the main or only theme. I want a variety of scenes but also want them to blend and be appealing.

With that all said I have added another picture which should show my latest delemas. 










I need to add a road from the one the goes to the resort area at the lake to the city area. This will need to pass under a set of double tracks. These double set of tracks also need to be supported. They are one level above the base. I had invisioned this to be a solid support (rather than a trestle) with a portal for the road. This portal can be any number of ways (bridge or tunnel). The other issue I have is the track in the lower part of the picture. This is actually climbing from the second level to the third level. It needs to clear the double set of tracks. As you can see it has quite a distance to be supported (47"). It is also in the direct line of sight when my grandkids look into the side of the layout thru the windows. I do not want a solid wall the full length of this section of track but also think if I built a full length of trestle it would look like too much. On the left side it starts at 2.5" above the base and ends at 4" above the base. There will need to be a 12" span at each end to clear the track and roads below it. I hope I haven't gotten everyone confused with all of this.

I am just looking for thoughts and ideas. I have never done this before and am learning as I go. I do not know anyone locally that has done anything like this and the local hobby shops (2 cities away) seem to be only interested in selling kits and not giving advice, suggestions or ideas.

Thanks,
Darrell S.


----------



## tankist

you seem to be on the right track. tunnel for the road will look just fine. 
as for the long bridge, i would look for several spans of plate girder bridge (or an I beam deck) supported by concrete or stone coluns, and a span of overhead truss where underpassing line will go. but trestle is also a viable solution if it is a steam or early diesel era (although there are plenty trestles used to this day)


----------



## tjcruiser

Darrel,

I built a long (curving) trestle inclined run into my HO layout. It's really toy-like in that I did NOT incorporate proper (and realistic) girder bridges or truss bridges between most of the supports ... rather just the "floating" track. (Obviously, any real train could never be supported this way.) For a realistic look, Anton's suggestions make good sense.

However, if you want to see a simply (toylike) example of a long trestle incline run (to compare to your envisioned goals), take a peek at the pics in this thread:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2951

Regards,

TJ


----------



## ElSimon

After much consultations with an actual engineer here are some thoughts.

My layout will NOT conform to the standard that many models adhere to. It will have concepts, ideas, contruction and details for different eras. I am sorry if this offends anyone. This revelation came to me as I was standing on my front porch last night. I happen to live on a busy street. As I watched the cars and truck motor on up the road I noticed that they covered many different time frames (from the 50s thru to brand new). I also noticed that my house was build in 1947 whereas my next door neighbor's house was build about 15 years ago and just down the street one was built only 2 years ago. There is at least one across the built long before mine. I am also NOT modeling a specific railroad.

So, I am not particular in accuracy in the modeling. I am more interested in the function of the train and having at least some semblance of realism in the terrain and structure without trying to maintain a timeline or timeframe. I guess I think too logically rather that artistically. Which probably answers many of your questions why I ask what I ask! Perhaps my problem has been in not asking the questions like I should have to get the responses I am looking for.

So...here goes a couple to clarify and new:
1. Is there a general rule or guideline that has been used (by modelers or in real life) that determines whether to use trestles, bridges, spans, colverts, arches etc. based on length of the gap to cross and / or the height? Or any other factor I simple do not know of?

2. Just for curiosity...when did the railroad phase out wooden trestles? Did they got to steel trestles then on to girders?

3. With a tresle is there a general rule of thumb that determines the angle of the outside verticle pieces? I realize this will change on curves. Or is there a rule of thumb which determines the width of the trestle at the base based on the ratio of the height to base? I think I got that one worded right??? I have not found anything on this ...yet. I am still looking.

The questions I have asked are as much for my understanding as for actual ideas without trying to stay true to a time period or area.

Again let me say thank you for all the good thoughts and comments. I have learned a lot but still learning too.


----------



## tankist

trestles were used before efficient earth moving techniques were developed. it was cheaper to build a trestle then fill a depression. trestles can be seen even today , perhaps not built anymore but no one removes something that works. in trestles there is no such thing as "rule of thumb". but there are precise industry standards that are followed . attached is an article about trestle construction with blue prints. should be helpful


----------



## Reckers

El Simon---the first and only rule of model railroading is this:

1. It's my layout, so what I like is what is right for it.

With that said, what about trestles? First, they are still in use, so use it if you want to. The railroads, like any other sensible people throughout history, work with the materials at hand. That means wooden trestles are still used and maintained---I used to live near a frequently-used one. If stone is cheaper than wood, I guarantee stone will be used as a matter of course unless steel is seen to be of greater advantage.

Next, you are right about the cars on your street, the houses, and so on. My suggestion is to pick a year that is represented by your layout: anything current or older is appropriate, if era matters. In Britain, trains travel within line of site of medieval castles---the range is wide. As for the tunnel/bridges/dilemma, use any material that actually works to support the structure and then disguise it, if need be. I plan to use an old piece of panelling to support the roof of my tunnel because it will have another train above it. Pink foam, caulking, and a decent paint job make the visual problem go away. Finally, you might consider a series of hills with girder bridges spanning the gaps between them as a way to break it up, visually. Best wishes on it!


----------



## Big Ed

Reckers said it, El Simon---the first and only rule of model railroading is this:

1. It's my layout, so what I like is what is right for it.


You can run steamers, with diesels and add spaceships overhead if you want too.:laugh:

Don't let anyone tell you different. 
Some are caught up in being exact in the era they are modeling. And they must have every rivet accounted for.

Do what you want! What ever makes YOU happy.


----------



## Reckers

By the way, there is no maximum length or height for trestles, bridges, etc. If the engineering behind it is such that the train travels horizontally instead of vertically, it's properly constructed.

During the Civil War, Union General Haupt was famous for throwing up railroad bridges (trestles) in record time with whatever materials were imediately at hand. Abraham Lincon was quoted as saying "' That man General Haupt has built a bridge 100 feet high and 400 feet long across Potomac creek, upon which the trains to supply the army are moving every hour, and upon my word, gentlemen, there is nothing in it but bean-poles and corn-stalks.'


----------



## tjcruiser

Big Ed posted some comments / history in a recent thread that intrigued me...

He referenced that stone RR bridge construction often post-dated prior eras of wood and iron bridge construction. (I would have naively guessed otherwise.) His sources tout that wood was commonly available, but prone to rot and endless upkeep. Iron, while quickly adopted in the mid-1800's, soon began showing evidence of metal fatigue, brittle fractures, etc. Hence, builders resorted to stone, which took some effort to use as a building material, but had longetivity with minimal fatigue.

The advent of steel (rather than iron), along with reinforced concrete soon changed building technology, once again.

Ed, correct me here if my summary is off.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## ElSimon

Visually it does not look like I have got much done so I won't post pictures. I will say that all the foam is glued down and I have a coat of Plaster of Paris soaked paper towels on most of the land forms, I might be missing a couple of small pieces. It actually looks like it should! Even better than I visuallized.

I have also decided that my layout will have most types of bridges and spans. It will actually look like a sampling of most of the varieties available. I came to this conclussion because of the types and lengths of spans I will have. Everyopne of them is unique.

I will be out of the country for a couple of weeks and I wanted to get this far before I left. I am VERY pleased with how it looks. My next step is to sand all the track beds to make them level. I will then add a slight coat of drywall mud to smooth it out even more. Then I paint the whole thing.

Painting:
1. Paint all the tunnels black.
2. One end of the layout will have a definate granite appearance to it the other end will be more redrock native to Southern Utah and Northern Arizona. I just have to figure out how I will make the transition across the layout.

Next will be the lakes. I have carved out 3 lakes. The main lake in the base. Then in the mountains I have 2 small lakes. I need to paint them and then fill them with a clear polyurothane. If any of you are fans of Clive Cussler and his books, keep in mind that I will be placing on the bottom of the main lake an image of a Boeing C-97 airplane (read Vixen 03 for the details).

With being out of the country for the next couple of weeks I will have plenty of seat time on airplanes. I plan to use this time to design all of my bridges. I just need to make sure I have all the dimensions I will need. Should be interesting to see how they look.

Always looking for thoughts and ideas thanks for all the help...so far.


----------



## tjcruiser

Big Cussler fan on my end. Thumbs up on the C-97 !!! Very creative!


----------



## ElSimon

I tried to find an N scale model but the size would have overpowered the layout. My son is an artist so he will be painting it in the bottom of the lake (before I fill it).

Now I just need to find a Pullman and a bath tub with an outboard on it.


----------



## tjcruiser

And some old steam locos at the bottom of the lake, too ... "Night Probe" ... "The Chase" ... :thumbsup:


----------



## Reckers

tjcruiser said:


> And some old steam locos at the bottom of the lake, too ... "Night Probe" ... "The Chase" ... :thumbsup:




Make sure they are Lionels.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

That said, back to the tunnels. The walls, IMHO, should be the same color or slightly darker than the exterior rock---same stuff, inside and out. I would, however, go with a blackened ceiling from smoke or exhaust. Just a suggestion!


----------



## ElSimon

I read on another site or in a book that tunnels should be black because they are dark. I may fade the lighter outside to the black over the first couple of inches.

I thought about "Night Probe" but that engine ended up in the river and then was secretly pulled out. So it is no longer there. "The Chase" I had overlooked. I will have to review that one. Perhaps I may take a couple of books with me to review, when i am not designing bridges.

Thanks for the ideas


----------



## Reckers

If I recall correctly, you need to sink a train ferry to properly enact "The Chase".

As for the black tunnel, what matters is what you want, not what the book or I say. That's the only real rule. That said, consider that red sandstone outside is the same color inside. Shading with paint may not be necessary: the existing shadows may well mimic the real shadows. It's your call!


----------



## ElSimon

Okay there are a LOT of Pullmans out there. I will have to do more research but off hand does anyone know what year Dirk's Pullman was or at least what era. This could be fun to search out. It will aslo mean my sons who are also fans will want to fight over my layout...eventually.


----------



## tjcruiser

If you carve your tunnel out of pink-stuff foam, all pass along one tip that worked well for me ...

I wanted to make the top-inside of my tunnel arched (half circle). I rough cut my foam slightly oversized (tunnel height too small), and then used a drum-disc sander (about 2" diameter) mounted in my drill (80 grit, I think) to cut/carve the arched tunnel top. It worked like a knife through butter, and made quick work of sculpting the inside of the tunnel.

Good luck with your bridge / tunnel planning!

TJ


----------



## Reckers

Nice technique, TJ! I plan to build my tunnel in a rectangle (I need a flat roof for the second tier of track) and then just disguise it by creating a rounded opening at either end.


----------



## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Big Ed posted some comments / history in a recent thread that intrigued me...
> 
> He referenced that stone RR bridge construction often post-dated prior eras of wood and iron bridge construction. (I would have naively guessed otherwise.) His sources tout that wood was commonly available, but prone to rot and endless upkeep. Iron, while quickly adopted in the mid-1800's, soon began showing evidence of metal fatigue, brittle fractures, etc. Hence, builders resorted to stone, which took some effort to use as a building material, but had longetivity with minimal fatigue.
> 
> The advent of steel (rather than iron), along with reinforced concrete soon changed building technology, once again.
> 
> Ed, correct me here if my summary is off.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ


That sounds good to me.

I am not one to argue.


----------



## Reckers

One irony is that reinforced concrete isn't all that durable: that's being seen on the D-Day beaches at Normandy. Once any seepage reaches the rebar or mesh, the tendency is to rust quickly and leave cavities. Those, in turn, can fill with water that turns to ice in winter and cracks the concrete even further. Stone doesn't have that problem. That's why buildings like the Colliseum are still standing.


----------



## Big Ed

Reckers said:


> One irony is that reinforced concrete isn't all that durable: that's being seen on the D-Day beaches at Normandy. Once any seepage reaches the rebar or mesh, the tendency is to rust quickly and leave cavities. Those, in turn, can fill with water that turns to ice in winter and cracks the concrete even further. Stone doesn't have that problem. That's why buildings like the Colliseum are still standing.


That sounds good too.
I repeat,
That sounds good to me.:thumbsup:

I am not one to argue.


----------



## ElSimon

I'm back. Just spent 10 days traveling from Utah thru Russia and to Armenia for a week and then back thru Russia to Utah. I am sick of airplane food and airports for a while.

Started to work on the layout tonight. Came up with a slight (major) concern. I began sanding the track bed. This is the paper towels soaked in plaster of paris (I will call it PT-PoP) and then applied to the pink foam which is main land form. I used a piece of 100 grit drywall sanding screen. It tears it up pretty good and leaves it quite rough. It also has a tendency to pull up the PT-PoP. When I applied the PT-PoP it was drying very fast even though I thought I had the PoP thin. I couldn't apply very much at a time and I couldn't work it very long before it started to harden.

I had already planned to apply at least one thin layer of drywall compound after I got the PT-PoP smooth. Is there a preferred method to smooth out the trackbed? I will be laying cork down before the actual track but I was thinking I could at least get the base smooth beforehand. Now I am asking what everyone else does or if I did something wrong.

I also spent a good portion of the air travel designing the bridges and I think I have some good ideas. I will post, in the future, what I plan on doing.

Your help is always appreciated.

Darrell S.


----------



## ElSimon

Wow It is hard to believe it has been a month since I checked in. Not much has happened..on my layout. I have sanded and sanded and...you get the idea.

I have built 2 bridges. Of coarse I started with the easiest ones! I hope to have pictures.

Last night I built the first granite tunnel entrance. I am pleased with it a trial. There is some work to do. I started with two thicknesses of cardboard from a cereal box. After it dried I drew where I wanted the mortar lines to be. Then I used a Dremel tool to actually grind through the first layer of cardboard to create the mortar lines. Today I spray painted it white then splattered it with a little black paint. I need to add a couple of shades of gray. I will then take some white with a fine brush and go through the mortar lines. Let me know what you think of the pictures.

The biggest and longest bridges will have to wait until I start to lay track so I know where the trestles can and need to be.

Tonight's question is:
I have applied 2 coats of sheetrock mud and I am having a difficult time getting it to be smooth everywhere. How smooth does it need to be? How wavy can the terrain be without effecting the performance of the train. I will be adding cork roadbed before I lay track so I hope this will level things out. I am hoping to have it ready to paint this weekend. Any advice and opinions would be helpful!

I know I have been told before but how do I get the pictures to show up in the text without being a link?


----------



## kcjeepn

I am liking this setup for many reasons, I like the elevation changes, bridges, tunnels, water and so on. Making me think more and more about how to setup new layout. How much time you think you have in this?


----------



## ElSimon

I would hate to guess on the time involved. I know this is the second try to get it how I want it. Read the entire thread to see all it has gone through. I did a lot of tiral and error. Had a minor melt down on Saturday. I finally got it where I could paitn it and with a beautiful day I decided to do it. I started to sray the paint (rattle cans) when I realized the propelant in the can was actually melting the foam. Imagine spending 100's of hours and then watch it start to melt!

I quickly had to change gears and rethink what I was doing. I had to change paints. and Brush it on. I have the first coat on and will take pictures tonight. The colors are NOT what I thought they would be. The white it too blue and the reds are TOO vibrant and not contrasting enough. I may have to look at new colors. 

The time spent is frustrating but also feels good to be at this point. I hope to have most of the painting done this week so I can actually start laying track. That will be a red letter day.


----------



## tankist

ElSimon said:


> I started to sray the paint (rattle cans) when I realized the propelant in the can was actually melting the foam.


this is not propelant, its the paint itself that is aggressive . so you either use latex paint on foam, or cover the foam with plaster and then spray paint.


----------



## ElSimon

I was only guessing it was the propellant. It was VERY discouraging to see the foam start to melt right before my eyes! I nearly had my own melt down!
What ever it was I am okay now and it is looking good. Even though the colors are not quite what I had in mind. At $12-$13 per quart it is not that bad to change.

I will evaluate it tonight after letting it dry for a couple of days. I also need to get some pine tree clippings and lay them on the layout to see what that does to the colors. That may make all the difference. The layout was out in the sun so that may have also effected the brightness.


----------



## Reckers

ElSimon,

Two suggestions. First, spackling compound can be used to fill the meltdown pitting. You already saw the "use latex" paint from Anton. Second, go with lighter colors than what you would normally think to be right. Layouts tend to become overly dark because so much landscaping is dark: trees, weeds, grass, buildings, and so on. To create the illusion of more space, use lighter-than-normal paint on your terrain and then add detail over it.


----------



## tankist

ElSimon said:


> What ever it was I am okay now and it is looking good. Even though the colors are not quite what I had in mind. At $12-$13 per quart it is not that bad to change.


what?! is the cheapest latex is that expencive in WM? i was sure it is significantly less for some reason. and then there is "oops pain" in home depot - 1-2$ a quart . ours also has the samplers at a time for for quarter-50c.


----------



## ElSimon

The price I listed was NOT what I paid. I paid about half of that. I will have to check the opps samples. I wish I had thought of that on Saturday. Trying to match landscape colors for granite and red sandstone can be difficult.

I had not thouoght of going lighter. That is a GREAT idea. I will post pictures of what I have now and what I end up with. With my layout outside currently I have all kinds of room to take pictures.

Thanks for all the ideas!


----------



## ElSimon

Anton,

THANKS for the great idea. I stopped by Home Despot and sure enough they had a small selection of Oops. I found a couple that I bought for a dollar each that I felt could work. I listened to Reckers and chose colors that were lighter than I thought I would like. I painted some test patches last night as it was getting dark so I will have to see them today. I stopped at Wally-World (didn't like the one oops they had) then stopped at an ACE hardware store on the way home. They didn't have anything close (purple just did't fit).

I have a couple of other places I can check too.

Also, what is the easiest or best way to post pictures here. I would rather they show up as the picture in the post rather than a link. How do I do this?

Thanks!!!!


----------



## tankist

yep, its those little things that make our day sometimes 

as for picture posting, our supermod created this guide some time ago:
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2595
just make sure they are not to wide sizewise. you can use the free Picasa software to resize and export pictures in a batch


----------



## Reckers

Elsimon,

I'm mentally deficient, so I upload all my photos to Photobucket. If you've used it, you know you have those dropdowns below the photos....the last yellow line in the dropdown gets copied in it's entirety and pasted into your post, here. It goes in as type, but posts as a photo.


----------



## tjcruiser

ElSimon said:


> Also, what is the easiest or best way to post pictures here. I would rather they show up as the picture in the post rather than a link. How do I do this?


If your photo exists out in internet land somewhere (in the forum gallery or in Photobucket, for example), then simply stick the URL to the photo inbetween IMG tags as follows:










That's exactly what the little mountain icon in the forum message editor box does for you.

If you've already attached an image (but not yet embedded it), click on the image icon in the editor to find the URL address for that image. Then, proceed as above.

Cheers,

TJ


----------



## ElSimon

Okay here is the latest on the layout.

I got the scenery the color my family wants. They didn't like the pink sandstone. My artist son changed this to be the "right" color. I got the plane set on the bottom of the lake. I started to pour the polyurethane into the lakes. I may have an issue with this. After I poured it and it started to cure in an unheated garage I found it was curing with a dingy green/brown tint to it. I have moved it inside with the hopes that it will clear up.

I created a gallery so you can look at some of the pictures I have of it. Titled "7 bridges and a road". The next step is the one I have been waiting for. I will start to lay cork this week and if I am lucky track!!!

I am always open to suggestions and ideas. I will be going to a model train show in Salt Lake this weekend to get more ideas. My wife will not let me take the check book or credit card...she knows me.

Current questions I am needing help with:
1. What do I glue the cork down with?
2. What do I glue the track down with?
3. Is it better to get the track all laid out and working before I glue it down? This would include soldering all the joints as well.
4. Will my lakes clear up as they cure?


----------



## tjcruiser

I glued my cork down with hot glue from a hot glue gun. Worked just fine ... the quick-cure of the hot glue allowed me to bend the cork around track curves and hold it in place for a minute or so until the hot glue dried. No need to hold the cork with weights during normal glue dry time.

I nailed my track down through the cork into underlying MDF. But if you want to glue, I think (???) people often just use white glue.

I think getting track laid and debugged before final glue-down is a good idea.

TJ


----------



## tankist

i use cork roadbed over foam and glued it down with adhesive caulk. used same to glue the track at several key points but mostly it is held by atlas nails. before i glued everything i did verify it was working. all my track is soldered to be "continuously welded" jointless track. i preffer running with clickety-clack reduced to minimum. however several joints held with insulated joiners forming insulated blocks for future block occupancy detection.


----------



## ElSimon

TJ,

With my luck or my glue gun I would think the glue would create a slight bump under the cork. This would, if it was big enough effect the flatness of the track. Perhaps it is my over evaluating of everything that is thinking this too much.With the cork being laid on top of foam, except the bridges, I think I will use wood glue and pin it into place to keep it in the position I want it. The wood glue also gives me the freedom to adjust it before it dries.

I have decided I am not putting anything down until after the model train show this weekend. That way I can see all kinds of new things that I wish I had done and start over ...... again! If I even mentioned that to my wife and sons I would get hung.

Thanks for the ideas. Any thoughts on the pictures?

Darrell


----------



## tjcruiser

Darrell,

Re: cork and hot glue ...

I liked how this worked for me. "Bumps" in the cork was a non-issue. I used only local, small dabs of hot glue -- every 2" or so -- and worked in fast, short sections. I.e., on a 36" cork piece, I gllued only maybe 12" of it at a time, letting the other 24" just lay ungued on my table. With the section I was glueing, I would work quickly ... dab the hot glue, then push the cork down into it while the glue was quite running. Doing so would disperse the glue, and smooth out any potential bumps. Hold for about a minute, then move on to the next 12" section.

In some places, the hot glue would squish out a bit alongside the edges of the cork. If that happened, I would let the glue fully dry, then just trim it off with a straight-edge razor.

One other note ...

The cork I used came split lengthwise into two halves. I would glue one half first (following my desired track contour), let that fully dry, then lay and glue the mating half by butting the adjoining edge tightly.

Good luck!

TJ


----------

