# Design Layout - Ergonomic Shapes?



## HO-Railways (Aug 20, 2015)

Background: Tried starting from a central feature, now starting a new way. My goal is to build a layout I can mostly sit in the center and control the trains, but I'll still be able to walk around. I chose a "U" shape for that reason, a square would be good too, but kind of be a hindrance to ease of walking around. I may go to a square, with center hole to operate the trains in.

My question is, when you're designing your table top, how often do you think of the ergonomics? Or is it more about where it can fit into that affects the shape?


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

The most important ergonomic is: -- Can you reach all parts of the layout comfortably enough to work on them and fix things that break or derail. In general, nothing should be more than 2 to 2.5 ft from the edge, depending on your reach.

The second most important ergonomic is: Is your table tall enough to allow you to comfortably crawl under it to do your wiring, but still at a good height for viewing. If you have small kids who want to watch, you don't want your table too high.

Anybody who does not consider these two things ahead of time will regret decisions made.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

MtRR75 said:


> The most important ergonomic is: -- Can you reach all parts of the layout comfortably enough to work on them and fix things that break or derail. In general, nothing should be more than 2 to 2.5 ft from the edge, depending on your reach.
> 
> The second most important ergonomic is: Is your table tall enough to allow you to comfortably crawl under it to do your wiring, but still at a good height for viewing. If you have small kids who want to watch, you don't want your table too high.
> 
> Anybody who does not consider these two things ahead of time will regret decisions made.


Yes, it is very important that you measure to the top of your head when you
are sitting under the layout to make certain the you won't be banging your
head. You'll be looking up a lot to do the wiring and turnout motor
adjustments and that can get pretty tiring if you don't have enough room
for a good sitting posture.

I like your basic U shape for a layout, the two ends seem to help the illusion
that your trains are actually going somewhere. However, if you can, try
to make your smallest radius at least 22" but preferably 26" so you are not
limited in the type of locos and long cars that you can run. Sometimes you
can do that by letting the U ends balloon a bit.

If you are going to use DCC, I would change to a single track main. That will
also help with space to widen the radius. If you do plan to have passing sidings
in at least 4 places around the tracks. That way you can run a train clockwise
while another goes counter clockwise. The sidings let them pass each other.
This means you'll have to actually run the trains. But, of course, you can
park one and let the other go round and round while you sit back with
a cool one.

I'm assuming you will be adding yards and industrial sidings so that you can
have switching sessions. You might also want to consider a 'reverse loop'
or Wye that will let you turn your trains around to go the other way.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

If you have small kids, consider doing what I did: make (or buy) a couple of step stools with integrated hand rails, so the kids can get up to layout height, but have something to grab onto OTHER than the layout edge. My kids are now too tall for the stools, but since I put a small desk right under the rail, they're still handy to have in the layout area.


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## HO-Railways (Aug 20, 2015)

Just Curious, why the suggestion for DCC single main Rail? Currently I'm planning a 1-2" space from the edge of the board to the outer most track. Is this too little in case of derailment?

Here is the list of locomotive "sets" I plan to use:
1.	Burlington Northern Diesel Freight*
2.	Union Pacific Diesel Freight*
3.	Burlington Northern Santa Fe Diesel Freight*
4.	CSX Diesel Freight*
5.	Deutsche Bahn Regio Bayern Class 423/433 Electric Passenger**
6.	Deutsche Bahn Regio Bayern Diesel Double Decker Passenger**
7.	Union Pacific EMD DD40AX Diesel Display
8.	Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 “Big Boy” Steam Display
9.	Union Pacific 4-8-4 “Northern” Steam Passenger
10.	Switcher*

* Have not figured out which model Locomotive to use yet
** Based on the two types of trains I rode on in Germany

I may add more, but for now it is just single locomotives with various rolling stock.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are two reasons for the single track suggestion.

First, it will help you widen the radius of your curves. The
radius of the curves is the key factor here.

Secondly, it gives you something to do when you run your
trains. If you run more than one you'll be busy throwing
turnouts, as well as slowing and stopping trains to avoid collisions.
It adds fun to the layout.

The larger steam locos on your list will not be able to
stay on the track dependably on the radius curves I see.
If you have 80 ft passenger or freight cars, their ends will
push out away from the track and possibly pull each other
off the track. You would also have trouble with 6 axle
diesel locomotives. What happens is that the front
trucks on steamers are pushed off the tight curved track, and the
6 axle diesel wheel flanges will be pressed against
the tight curved rails and cause derailments. The same
with the 8 and more steam drivers. Most of the big
locos will have a suggested minimum track radius on their boxes.
It is usually wise to exceed that. Ask about it at
your dealer.

In addition you should balloon the two U ends, again to
widen the radius. And don't forget to widen the curves at
the bottom of the U. You seem to have the space to
work with, use as much of it as you can.

Now, you can run most 4 axle diesels, and possibly a 2 6 2
steamer on your layout as it is in the drawing.

Don


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## HO-Railways (Aug 20, 2015)

DonR said:


> ...
> The larger steam locos on your list will not be able to
> stay on the track dependably on the radius curves I see.
> ...
> ...


Just curious, if the parts I am using for my curves are Atlas model #836 22"/22.5 degree, is that not big enough? Bachmann says the DD40AX needs 18" and MTH says 22" for the 4-8-8-4. I went with the 22" because it kept it to 4' wide along the track so it would be possible to reach the center from at least 1 side. I'm currently laying 24"/22.5 degree curves to see what happens.


Here is the layout with 24" Curves:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The loco makers want to sell their products so they'll say
one can run on 18" radius, but, in fact it may not do
it very well. Those are minimums, like the minimum wage.
It may keep you from hunger but you won't live very well.

If you can get the 24" curves on there you'll be a lot better
off. Your passenger trains will look a lot better on them
also. The ends of the cars will swing more normally
without jutting into close by scenery. 

You might try swinging the track away from the edge
and more gradually into
the top of the bottom of the U curve. You have a couple S curves
and those can be pesky. 

If you're going with the single track main, you'll want 3 or
4 passing sidings that can also be where you put passenger
stations. That's how I use mine.

Will you be having a yard and a number of industry spurs so you
can do switching?

Don


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## HO-Railways (Aug 20, 2015)

Here is my layout plan as of current:

Train Types:
1.	Burlington Northern Diesel Freight
2.	Union Pacific Diesel Freight
3.	Burlington Northern Santa Fe Diesel Freight
4.	CSX Diesel Freight
5.	Deutsche Bahn Regio Bayern Class 423/433 Electric (Munich S-Bahn S2 to Dachau, Munich S-Bahn S1 to Regensburg) Passenger
a.	Electric Loco
b.	Class 423 End Car (x2)
c.	Class 433 Middle Car (x2)
6.	Deutsche Bahn Regio Bayern Diesel Double Decker (Nuremberg S-Bahn to Parsberg) Passenger
7.	Union Pacific EMD DD40AX Diesel Display
8.	Union Pacific 4-8-8-4 “Big Boy” Steam Display
9.	Union Pacific 4-8-4 “Northern” Steam Passenger
10.	Locomotive Switcher
Freight Types:
1.	Agricultural
2.	Automotive?
3.	Chemical
4.	Coal
5.	Industrial
6.	Intermodal
Layout Features:
1.	Rail Yard
a.	Arrival/Departure
b.	Classification
c.	Storage/Maintenance
d.	Refuel
2.	Passenger Terminal (x2)
3.	Bridge
Service Industries:
1.	Coal
2.	Grain

Still have to try making it all fit, I think I might be suffering from "that looks too small, let's make it bigger" syndrome. Example is my classification tracks. I keep thinking a 27" section is too small to fit a nice train load. Each of those lines in the pictures I posted is for every 5 inches (it was zoomed out pretty far to get every section in the picture).


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

HO-Railways said:


> Just Curious, why the suggestion for DCC single main Rail? Currently I'm planning a 1-2" space from the edge of the board to the outer most track. Is this too little in case of derailment?


You might be OK with 1-2", since most derailments don't actually leave the track and fall over (unless, perhaps they are unattended). But you can also accidentally knock a train onto the floor when reach for something in the center of the layout, and catch the train with your elbow.

You can solve the falling train problem by putting short, clear plexiglas panels along the edges. Mine only stick up about 2" above the table top -- high enough to catch anything but short enough to look over when standing and still see the train (or through if I am sitting down).

Plexiglas is sold by glass companies, and they can cut it to size for you. Or if you have a table saw, you can cut it yourself. You can work it like wood. You can file and sand the edges and drill screw holes in it (just drill slowly so it does not crack).

Mine have saved me several times, mostly from my own carelessness.


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## HO-Railways (Aug 20, 2015)

MtRR75 said:


> You might be OK with 1-2", since most derailments don't actually leave the track and fall over (unless, perhaps they are unattended). But you can also accidentally knock a train onto the floor when reach for something in the center of the layout, and catch the train with your elbow.
> 
> You can solve the falling train problem by putting short, clear plexiglas panels along the edges. Mine only stick up about 2" above the table top -- high enough to catch anything but short enough to look over when standing and still see the train (or through if I am sitting down).
> 
> ...


Great idea with the plexiglass. I was thinking of something similar, thought not as good. I was thinking of using a 2x6 with 2" exposed above plywood. My only thing is, how easy would it be to soften the plexiglass to curve with the table.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

You can bend Plexiglas a LITTLE, but it does put stress on it, which will make it more likely to crack. It is not really designed to be bent -- certainly not 90 degrees. I have some gentle curves and I copped out and divided them into short straight sections, with a separate piece of plexiglas for each section. Not elegant, but cheap and effective.

There is at least one kind of clear plastic that can be bent, but I am not sure what it is called, and it is expensive -- and it does not stay bent without being forced to stay in that shape (and it takes some amount of force to do that. But it does not crack. My daughter has a sheet of it in her bathroom doorway to keep her pet ferrets out of the bathroom. She found it on the internet. I do not know how easy it is to cut. Our glass shops don't carry it. She ordered it pre-cut to size.


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