# New Haven 494 not running



## OCJOER

I purchased a bunch of stuff a while back when I decided to set up a train set for the grandkids. I had an American Flyer set as a little kid so I picked up a bunch of track and cars. One of the sets I got was a New Haven 494 495 diesel freight set. I've just got the track laid out on a 4' x 4' board and I wanted to see if the train would make it up the grade before I fastened everything down. When I put the 494 on the track and applied power (with a 23030 transformer) I got a buzz but no movement. I figured I'd take it apart and clean it all out. Both the front and rear drives were packed with old grease so I cleaned them all out and am able to rotate the worm gear from above the wheels spin easily. However, when I put everything back together and put it back on the track and apply power I still get the hum and no movement. By the way the headlight lights up. Is there any way of applying power without the wheels actually being on the track. I'm sure there is, since it gets from the track to the motors but I didn't want to burn anything up when I try. The wires all appear to be the original Black, Red, Green and Yellow with the black and red going to the stator winding and yellow and green to the brushes. 

Thanks for any help,
Joe


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## Yard King

It has been my experience that Flyer diesels in particular don’t like being packed away and not used for longish periods.

If they were mine I would be stripping down both motors and cleaning them, especially the commutators. The real main culprit is lilkey to be the reverse unit. The drum tarnishes and the fingers lose tension. It does mean removing the two finger boards and resetting them and also cleaning the drum.


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## OCJOER

Forgot to mention that I've been searching the old interweb for diagrams but I seem to either get "O" gauge ALCO or ones that have no reference to wire colors or just the steam locos.


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## OCJOER

Hi Yard King,

I've got both out so I suppose I'll just do that. The drum on the reverse unit seems to be clean but I'll check everything once I get it all apart. . 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

As stated above, if the armatures rotate easily it is likely weak brush springs, worn brushes, or a worn contact finger on the reverse unit.


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## Yard King

The reverse units can be deceptive by a visual inspection. If you had it still altogether I would have suggested to power it up in either a forward or reverse direction and use something like a toothpick and gently push down on each finger to see if the motors responded.

When I adjust the fingers I set them at about 30 degrees down.


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## OCJOER

Looks like one of the drum fingers is shot and the drum could use a cleaning. I've got some extras so I guess I'll just take everything apart and put new ones in.


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## Yard King

Definitely a candidate for a rebuild.


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## OCJOER

Anything in particular to use on the drum to clean it up?


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## Yard King

Over this side of the pond I use a liquid car paint cutting product called T cut. Used it for many years and never had a problem with it.

I guess it is all down to personal choice and what works for different people. I am sure others will offer other products that do a similar job just as well.


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## Big Ed

OCJOER said:


> Hi Yard King,
> 
> I've got both out so I suppose I'll just do that. The drum on the reverse unit seems to be clean but I'll check everything once I get it all apart. .
> 
> Joe


I advise to take pictures of your tear down procedure.
It may help you in getting it back together or help someone in the future.
There is a way to apply power straight, but I will leave that to an S man.
I do not have but 1 S scale locomotive.


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## AmFlyer

I use electrical contact cleaner that is plastic safe.


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## flyernut

I use a bright-boy or a piece of scotch-brite green pad to clean up the drum. I also use CRC tuner/cleaner to hose down the e-unit after I have it torn down, paying attention to the brass pawl which can sometimes get clogged up with oil/dirt..I also run a small drill bit through the drum axle holes in the sides of the e-unit to clean up any rust, etc.Pre-bend your fingers before putting them on..I also bend very slightly the small, brass finger that engages the teeth on the drum. Over the years that little finger gets bent a tiny bit, also check it for nicks/burrs.


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## OCJOER

While I'm waiting for a couple parts to come in for the New Haven I've started working on the 293 Loco/Tender. I've got a bunch of 20 ga. wire in different colors. It looks like the original wiring was done with maybe 22 ga. or thinner. Would the 20 ga. be ok to use?

The ScotchBrite worked on the drum Flyer.

Joe


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> While I'm waiting for a couple parts to come in for the New Haven I've started working on the 293 Loco/Tender. I've got a bunch of 20 ga. wire in different colors. It looks like the original wiring was done with maybe 22 ga. or thinner. Would the 20 ga. be ok to use?
> 
> The ScotchBrite worked on the drum Flyer.
> 
> Joe


I use 22 ga. super flex wire on all my tender re-wires.


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## OCJOER

Thanks Flyer. I just ordered a bunch on Amazon, I think it comes with 8 different colors. Do you know where I'd be able to purchase a pair of the plugs that connect the wires from the tender to the locomotive? I purchased a bunch of stuff from the TrainDr but he didn't have those. Also the harness seems to be black, red, yellow and green, however, all the other wires from the trucks to the reversing unit and from the jack to the smoke and light are all black on the 293s that I have. Is that correct or were there other colors involved? I've decided to take all the locomotives apart and rebuild them all so I thought I put all new wiring in. I found diagrams on a site called wingstracksguns.com but it doesn't list the colors. On the diagrams they're green, pink, yellow, blue and orange, but I doubt AF used those colors. I'm using WD-40 to soften up the old solidified grease and carb cleaner to clean the parts off after that. One of the 293s is pretty dirty and has really gummed up wheels. Anything other than Simple Green or similar heavy duty cleaner to use on them? The prior owner (one of them anyway) seems to have broken off the machine screw that holds the rear wheel truck onto the engine. I've had it soaking in WD 40. Any suggestions for getting it out? If I can't spin it out this morning, using the tip of an Exacto knife, I was going to try and score a slot in it and use one of my tiny screwdrivers to get to it. My other though was to grind off the nutsert and see if I can find one that size, not sure what it is but I'm guessing a 6 or 4 - 32.


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## Yard King

The diesels did use the heavy ribbon cable as you describe. Because the insulation is stiff it can be a problem in that it lifts/reduces tension on the brushes which stops contact with the commutator. If you keep it then it just needs a bit of careful fiddling to get it positioned to work. If you are not bothered with the old wiring then use the 20G superflex as mentioned already.

The steam engines used a 4 wire connector cable between engine and tender which comprises of an outer woven cloth sheaf with 4 black wires inside. Doing a re wire will mean using a meter and tapping out each one when connecting to the male plug and where it goes in the tender.

Cleaning the chassis I use a jewellers flat bladed screw driver and just carefully scrape it all out. I also use it to remove all the old grease between the teeth on the gear wheel as well as it solidifies hard. Once you put a bit of oil on the axles you will find it frees up, I use a syringe with a blunt tip which gets between the wheel and chassis and can drop it onto the axle.

For a broken screw I drill it out with a 1.5mm drill and then follow it with a 2mm drill and this is usually enough to get what is left out with a small jewellers screwdriver. I then run a 4-40 tap down it to clean up any bits left behind.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Thanks Flyer. I just ordered a bunch on Amazon, I think it comes with 8 different colors. Do you know where I'd be able to purchase a pair of the plugs that connect the wires from the tender to the locomotive? I purchased a bunch of stuff from the TrainDr but he didn't have those. Also the harness seems to be black, red, yellow and green, however, all the other wires from the trucks to the reversing unit and from the jack to the smoke and light are all black on the 293s that I have. Is that correct or were there other colors involved? I've decided to take all the locomotives apart and rebuild them all so I thought I put all new wiring in. I found diagrams on a site called wingstracksguns.com but it doesn't list the colors. On the diagrams they're green, pink, yellow, blue and orange, but I doubt AF used those colors. I'm using WD-40 to soften up the old solidified grease and carb cleaner to clean the parts off after that. One of the 293s is pretty dirty and has really gummed up wheels. Anything other than Simple Green or similar heavy duty cleaner to use on them? The prior owner (one of them anyway) seems to have broken off the machine screw that holds the rear wheel truck onto the engine. I've had it soaking in WD 40. Any suggestions for getting it out? If I can't spin it out this morning, using the tip of an Exacto knife, I was going to try and score a slot in it and use one of my tiny screwdrivers to get to it. My other though was to grind off the nutsert and see if I can find one that size, not sure what it is but I'm guessing a 6 or 4 - 32.


The "Train Tender" has the male plugs you need, but keep in mind the 293 is direct wired, it has no male plug or female jack panel. If yours does, it has been changed..The wire colors are gray, green, and black..I buy my wire, 22 gauge super flex stranded wire, by the spool, 100 feet at a time, in black..PortLInes has a excellent wiring diagram, I've been using it for years..When you say "rear wheel truck", do you mean the draw bar screw that attaches the drawbar to the bottom of the chassis of the loco??. If so you're on the right track with the exacto knife, etc. I use a dental pick to turn out the broken end of the screw. I have different lengths and curves so I can get to almost anything, found on ebay, cheap. You can get a set of 6-10 for less than $10 dollars. They're also useful for cleaning firearms.. If we're talking about the tender trucks, there shouldn't be any type of screw and nut holding the trucks on.The parts needed there are the rivet and insulating bushing. I can get you the part #'s if needed.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Thanks Flyer. I just ordered a bunch on Amazon, I think it comes with 8 different colors. Do you know where I'd be able to purchase a pair of the plugs that connect the wires from the tender to the locomotive? I purchased a bunch of stuff from the TrainDr but he didn't have those. Also the harness seems to be black, red, yellow and green, however, all the other wires from the trucks to the reversing unit and from the jack to the smoke and light are all black on the 293s that I have. Is that correct or were there other colors involved? I've decided to take all the locomotives apart and rebuild them all so I thought I put all new wiring in. I found diagrams on a site called wingstracksguns.com but it doesn't list the colors. On the diagrams they're green, pink, yellow, blue and orange, but I doubt AF used those colors. I'm using WD-40 to soften up the old solidified grease and carb cleaner to clean the parts off after that. One of the 293s is pretty dirty and has really gummed up wheels. Anything other than Simple Green or similar heavy duty cleaner to use on them? The prior owner (one of them anyway) seems to have broken off the machine screw that holds the rear wheel truck onto the engine. I've had it soaking in WD 40. Any suggestions for getting it out? If I can't spin it out this morning, using the tip of an Exacto knife, I was going to try and score a slot in it and use one of my tiny screwdrivers to get to it. My other though was to grind off the nutsert and see if I can find one that size, not sure what it is but I'm guessing a 6 or 4 - 32.


Send a picture if you can.


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## OCJOER

flyernut said:


> Send a picture if you can.


Morning Flyer,

Here's the photo of the bracket with the now unstuck broken screw. 

The diagrams from the site I mentioned show a plug (see attached). One of my 293s had one this one doesn't. The wiring colors on the 293s, as you say, are gray, green and black. I was looking at the reversing unit of the diesel that has the red and yellow wires. 

I just looked on the Port Lines page and it shows the direct connection between the engine and tender. I'm not sure why the site I looked at shows the diagram with the jack panel and the plug. What is the best way to do the wiring then? Solder all the connections on the engine and and drum fingers, put the body back on the engine, sliding the fingers through the space at the back of the engine (where the bracket with the formerly stuck screw is) and then attach the fingers to the reversing unit on the tender, then put the tender body back sounds like the steps I need.

I'm going to try and get the rewiring done tonight and test it out on the incline to see if it makes it up and down without any issues. (My girlfriend just had neck surgery so I've been busier than usual with "domestic" things the last few weeks.)

Thank you and Yard King for all the help and info. I'll send photos when I'm finished. 

Joe


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## Yard King

If it was me I would prefer to put the finger boards back on the reverse unit so they are out of the way so as not to damage the delicate fingers.

If you have the original wiring I would start by connecting the wires to the reverse unit and then back to the engine using the wiring diagrams.

If you are making a new set of wires for it I would still start at the tender end first and then cut the wires to suit at the engine with some extra length to allow for movement when running.

I am not sure I would use 20 gauge as it they might end up not being flexible enough which in turn can cause the front wheels on the tender truck to lift and lose contact with the rails. If you used the 22 gauge super flex wiring as mentioned earlier it will be a better solution.

In reality it is your call and what you feel most comfortable doing and works for you. I am sure others will have other solutions which will work equally well.


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## Tyrell54

OCJOER said:


> View attachment 591189
> 
> View attachment 591188
> 
> 
> 
> Morning Flyer,
> 
> Here's the photo of the bracket with the now unstuck broken screw.
> 
> The diagrams from the site I mentioned show a plug (see attached). One of my 293s had one this one doesn't. The wiring colors on the 293s, as you say, are gray, green and black. I was looking at the reversing unit of the diesel that has the red and yellow wires.
> 
> I just looked on the Port Lines page and it shows the direct connection between the engine and tender. I'm not sure why the site I looked at shows the diagram with the jack panel and the plug. What is the best way to do the wiring then? Solder all the connections on the engine and and drum fingers, put the body back on the engine, sliding the fingers through the space at the back of the engine (where the bracket with the formerly stuck screw is) and then attach the fingers to the reversing unit on the tender, then put the tender body back sounds like the steps I need.
> 
> I'm going to try and get the rewiring done tonight and test it out on the incline to see if it makes it up and down without any issues. (My girlfriend just had neck surgery so I've been busier than usual with "domestic" things the last few weeks.)
> 
> Thank you and Yard King for all the help and info. I'll send photos when I'm finished.
> 
> Joe
> View attachment 591187


The 293 I have has a 4 wire jack panel and a 5th wire. One of the Flyer books I have states the came that way in ‘53 and were direct wired from’54 on, so both of your’s are probably correct.


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## flyernut

If it was mine, I would eliminate the direct wiring system, and add the male jack plug and female jack panel. I would then use 22 gauge super flex wire on the tender to e-unit connections, and get a either pre-made wiring harness or buy the material and make one yourself. That's what I do. If you want, I can make a harness up for you and mail it out...$4 bucks, no shipping....


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## flyguy55

There are several variations of the 293 over the years.Most are direct wired but one version does have a jack panel......


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## OCJOER

flyernut said:


> If it was mine, I would eliminate the direct wiring system, and add the male jack plug and female jack panel. I would then use 22 gauge super flex wire on the tender to e-unit connections, and get a either pre-made wiring harness or buy the material and make one yourself. That's what I do. If you want, I can make a harness up for you and mail it out...$4 bucks, no shipping....


Hi Flyer,

I'm going to order the jack panel and plug, I've just got in a bunch of 22 ga. wire so that's what I'm going to do. I already got a bunch of finger pieces so I'll just do a complete rewire on the whole thing. I figure while I've got it all apart I'll redo the smoke unit too. I couldn't find anything about the size of the Ni Chrome wire to wrap the wick with. Any idea what gauge to use? It looks pretty fine. I ordered one of those foam cutters that came with extra wire but I'm pretty sure it's too heavy to use for this. 

Is there anything in particular to use to clean up the white part of the wheels? 4 of the 6 came clean with just a wipe with a little detergent but the back 2 seem to have more yellowing. 

Joe


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Hi Flyer,
> 
> I'm going to order the jack panel and plug, I've just got in a bunch of 22 ga. wire so that's what I'm going to do. I already got a bunch of finger pieces so I'll just do a complete rewire on the whole thing. I figure while I've got it all apart I'll redo the smoke unit too. I couldn't find anything about the size of the Ni Chrome wire to wrap the wick with. Any idea what gauge to use? It looks pretty fine. I ordered one of those foam cutters that came with extra wire but I'm pretty sure it's too heavy to use for this.
> 
> Is there anything in particular to use to clean up the white part of the wheels? 4 of the 6 came clean with just a wipe with a little detergent but the back 2 seem to have more yellowing.
> 
> Joe


I use the pre-wound "kits" found everywhere..They're $6 dollars each at the Train Tender, Jeff Kane, and I buy 99% of my parts from him. He's cheap, and extremely knowledgeable, and a great guy. What I do with white insulators that are impossible to clean, I simply sand them down a little. You can try household bleach too.I us Dawn on all my clean-ups.


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## Big Ed

flyernut said:


> I use the pre-wound "kits" found everywhere..They're $6 dollars each at the Train Tender, Jeff Kane, and I buy 99% of my parts from him. He's cheap, and extremely knowledgeable, and a great guy. What I do with white insulators that are impossible to clean, I simply sand them down a little. You can try household bleach too.I us Dawn on all my clean-ups.


Dawn good for Ducks too.


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## flyernut

Big Ed said:


> Dawn good for Ducks too.


And when your black lab gets in a bruhaha with a skunk...


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## OCJOER

I've ordered the plug/jack combo for the 293. Does the 5th wire just sort of go through the bottom of the tender into the engine since they are only 4 pin jacks? That would be the one coming from the reverse unit to the smoke unit and onto the light.

Joe


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> I've ordered the plug/jack combo for the 293. Does the 5th wire just sort of go through the bottom of the tender into the engine since they are only 4 pin jacks? That would be the one coming from the reverse unit to the smoke unit and onto the light.
> 
> Joe


Yes...The jack panel will have a small hole in the middle of the panel towards the top. That's the 5th wire. I can send you a plug with wire to eliminate the need to solder the 5th wire, making it easy to separate the engine from the tender. Send me your address.


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## OCJOER

flyernut said:


> Yes...The jack panel will have a small hole in the middle of the panel towards the top. That's the 5th wire. I can send you a plug with wire to eliminate the need to solder the 5th wire, making it easy to separate the engine from the tender. Send me your address.


Morning Flyer,

Thank you for the offer. I have lots of small electrical parts, including connectors, that should work for that. I used to build auxiliary LED lighting for motorcycles. 

I was on the Traindr.com site and it now requires a login, but I didn't see any button to click to create one. I wrote to Jeff asking how I go about getting a login but haven't heard back. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

Joe, I just went to www.traindr.com (the HTTPS version) and it worked just as it always did. Nothing about a login. Maybe give it another try?


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Morning Flyer,
> 
> Thank you for the offer. I have lots of small electrical parts, including connectors, that should work for that. I used to build auxiliary LED lighting for motorcycles.
> 
> I was on the Traindr.com site and it now requires a login, but I didn't see any button to click to create one. I wrote to Jeff asking how I go about getting a login but haven't heard back.
> 
> Joe


That's NOT the Train Tender, that's the Traindr, 2 different entities.


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> Joe, I just went to www.traindr.com (the HTTPS version) and it worked just as it always did. Nothing about a login. Maybe give it another try?


I think he wants the "Train Tender", not the traindr.


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## AmFlyer

Thanks, good point, I took it as typed. Same with the Train Tender site, it is working ok for me.


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## OCJOER

Seems like there's a model train show going on and everyone's out of their office until Monday so I'll have to wait on the parts. Not a big deal since I have lots of other things on the Honey Do list.

Since I got all kinds of colors in my 22 ga. super flex wire package I decided to wire the tender up with different colored wires. I put in the new fingers that I got from Jeff Kane and ran all the wires up to the front and out of the tender while I wait for the jacks.


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## AmFlyer

That would be Fall York. All the major dealers and suppliers (except Lionel) attend.


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## alaft61ri

Yes you are right the train tender and trains & more are there.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Seems like there's a model train show going on and everyone's out of their office until Monday so I'll have to wait on the parts. Not a big deal since I have lots of other things on the Honey Do list.
> 
> Since I got all kinds of colors in my 22 ga. super flex wire package I decided to wire the tender up with different colored wires. I put in the new fingers that I got from Jeff Kane and ran all the wires up to the front and out of the tender while I wait for the jacks.


You can eliminate all those wires coming from the tender to the male jack plug by buying the 4-wire harness stock from alot of different suppliers. I buy it in 12' sections or more, and it's very close to the original-looking harness.i


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## OCJOER

Here's what I have so far. I replaced all the wires in the loco/tender. They were all very hard, I guess either from age or they were the wrong wires. 

I have a question about the smoke unit Ni Chrome wire resistance. I recall either reading or watching a video where I believe it was stated that the resistance was supposed to be about 30 ohms. I took the covers off this one and it looked like someone replaced everything in it, wire, wick and that little insulation box not very long ago, it looked brand new. However, I'm getting nearly 80 ohms of resistance when I measure across the contacts on the top of the cover. Now there is a bunch of solder that a prior owner got on there when they attached the leads going to the power. (I just clipped the wires off and attached the new ones to the attachment points towards the front of the tabs). Will that much resistance cause problems?


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## AmFlyer

The original wire is 31 gauge and the resistance of the winding is about 32 ohms. Winding your own replacement can be done but it is so much easier to purchase some inexpensive pre-wound smoke elements. If the layout and engines are Command Control such as DCC, with constant voltage on the track use 28 to 30 ohms. If operating conventional with a well repaired engine, 10V to 12V operation, use about 24 ohms resistance. Some people go as low as 18ohms, but the wick and batting must be kept constantly wet to prevent charring.


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## Yard King

If the resistance really is 80 ohms then it is too much. On mine I would personally drop it down to about 27 +/- 1 ohm for this engine with a standard motor.

There seems to be some historic feeling that it should be about 35 ohms but I have had a lot of success with 27 ohms. All down to personal choice etc.


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## flyernut

I use the pre-wound kits, and when I receive them and before I install them, I always unwind about 4-6 laps of wire. This gives me plenty of smoke, and still have longevity with the wicks/wire.


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## Yard King

We all have a different approach on how we repair our trains and in this area of smoke elements I will spend some time making up a batch of pre wound elements to specific resistance values depending on which engines need a new rebuild. A one size fit doesn’t work for all engines.

It makes life that little bit easier when it comes to actually doing the rebuild. I actually spend quite a bit of time cleaning and prepping the core unit before rebuilding it. I have found that a problem area of a core unit is the lower chamber where the gasket sits. The surface can in some cases be really rough and this I believe is a problem for fluid seeping out and dripping down onto the chassis. I will spend a bit of time in cleaning the surface up so that it as blemish free as possible. I also do similar cleaning up of the upper chamber where the top gasket sits. It all makes for a unit that is more efficient. I think sometimes smoke units are not fully appreciated for how they function and the problems they throw up.


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## flyernut

2 other things you can do to make life easier..You can drill out the small wick holes in the wick chamber so it's easier to thread the wick down into the lower chamber, and you can use a little clear RTV on the upper and lower gaskets to seal better after you clean the sealing surfaces.


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## OCJOER

It's been kind of crazy around here. My girlfriend had to have spinal surgery, her daughter is pregnant with twins, and, oh yeah, there's Christmas decorations to be put up. Wasn't much I could do about the first 2, other than be as helpful as I could, but I have got about half of the Christmas decorations up. I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to that stuff. 

Anyway, I've just been able to get back into the garage and get back to putting the 494 back together. I've cleaned it all up and have the new parts. Only issue is I can't find the diagram for the wires. I've done google and bing searches but can only come up with steam locomotive diagrams. Anyone out there have a link for the 494? 

Thank you,
Joe


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## AmFlyer

Sure, go to www.portlines.com. Diesel wiring diagrams are Repair Clinic 14. For the 494 engine either the 490 or the 21925 diagram can be used, they are the same.


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## OCJOER

Hi Tom,

Thank you. I'll have to look at the wires to figure out which color is which, but that should work. 

Joe


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## OCJOER

I also forgot to ask if there was any special lubricant I should use when reassembling everything. I have pretty much everything from engine assembly lube to WD-40.


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## AmFlyer

I use a medium oil on the bearings and axles, a white lithium grease on the gears. Other choices are ok as well.


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## OCJOER

Thank you again Tom. I've got the new finger boards in and the wiring done. With any luck I'll have it all back together his evening and ready to run. I've been taking photos as I go so I'll post them later. 

Joe


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## OCJOER

Hi Tom,

So everything is wired up per the diagram and I put the frame on the tracks and when I put power to the track I still get a hum and no forward movement. When I shut the power down and turn it back on the drum rotates and it will go backward but then when I shut it down and turn it back on it just hums. The light lights up fine. Any ideas? I've got 12 volts going to the track. Would I touch the power lines to the wheels to test it off the track or those little spring pins that touch the track? 

Joe


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## Yard King

taking what you say literally we have this:-
power on hums
power off then on backwards
power off then on hums

This sounds like you started it in a neutral position then it cycles to reverse and then it cycles to neutral which is correct. What happens when you cycle it a fourth time? It should go forward.

Or are you getting neutral, reverse,neutral,nothing,neutral,reverse.


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## AmFlyer

It sounds like when the drum rotates to the forward position one of the fingers is not making contact with the copper inset in the drum. Since most replacement fingers are known to be long, bending the finger contact points back a bit (shorten the overall length) should fix it.


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> It sounds like when the drum rotates to the forward position one of the fingers is not making contact with the copper inset in the drum. Since most replacement fingers are known to be long, bending the finger contact points back a bit (shorten the overall length) should fix it.


Also check your wiring.I would invest in a continuity checker, best tool I own.


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## OCJOER

Morning all,

I've got a few electrical testers Flyer, and put them to good use on this issue. 

I took out one of the 21160s and hooked it up and got the wheels to turn. The tender needs a good cleaning to make better contact with the track, the wheels are pretty corroded. But that's an easy fix. 

When I put the 494 on the track it still did what it was doing before, nothing, backwards, hum. I bent the fingers to make sure they were making good contact with the drum and there was good continuity. The hum comes from the reversing unit. I've attached pictures of the location of the drum and top fingers as I turn the power on and off. I can't get photos of the bottom fingers. Is there a way to run the power directly to the motors to see if they turn? They turn easily by hand.


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## AmFlyer

Think about the problem like this. The 494 has dual motors, both motors behave the same so the problem is not in the motors. When running forward or reverse all the motor windings, interconnecting wiring and track pickups are the same. In other words they do not have double wound fields to change rotation direction like some Lionel engines and some Gilbert accessories.
The ONLY difference between forward and reverse is the direction of current flow through the field in relation to the armature; this current flow is determined only by the fingers and drum contacts in the reverse unit. If both motors run in one direction and not the other it cannot be the wiring. Something must be be wrong in the reverse unit.
I am a little confused about your "nothing" comment. The drum sequences as F-N-R-N. Both N positions should have a slight humming sound In the non working F position the reverse unit coil should still produce a slight hum. That chassis is really clean.


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## Yard King

I think the drum could do with some more cleaning and polishing. There still seems to be a reasonable amount of black stuff on it which might be causing a problem in the forward direction.

As someone mentioned earlier the only true way of faulting this is to lock the reverse unit in forward, put it on the track at say half power and follow the voltage through from one pickup to the other.


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## flyernut

I've found, at least in the steam engines I repair, if the bottom finger wires are reversed, you'll only get 1 direction, for what it's worth.


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## flyernut

Yard King said:


> We all have a different approach on how we repair our trains and in this area of smoke elements I will spend some time making up a batch of pre wound elements to specific resistance values depending on which engines need a new rebuild. A one size fit doesn’t work for all engines.
> 
> It makes life that little bit easier when it comes to actually doing the rebuild. I actually spend quite a bit of time cleaning and prepping the core unit before rebuilding it. I have found that a problem area of a core unit is the lower chamber where the gasket sits. The surface can in some cases be really rough and this I believe is a problem for fluid seeping out and dripping down onto the chassis. I will spend a bit of time in cleaning the surface up so that it as blemish free as possible. I also do similar cleaning up of the upper chamber where the top gasket sits. It all makes for a unit that is more efficient. I think sometimes smoke units are not fully appreciated for how they function and the problems they throw up.


Sorry, I disagree with your statement, "one size fit doesn't work for all engines".All the Gilbert smoke units are the same, except for maybe the HO unit, and the newer style 1 chamber units.If you work up a batch of pre-wound wicks, how would you determine which pre-wound wick would go into a specific engine?? Just thinking out loud....


----------



## Yard King

flyernut said:


> Sorry, I disagree with your statement, "one size fit doesn't work for all engines".All the Gilbert smoke units are the same, except for maybe the HO unit, and the newer style 1 chamber units.If you work up a batch of pre-wound wicks, how would you determine which pre-wound wick would go into a specific engine?? Just thinking out loud....


It all depends on speed and voltage. Not all engine types run at the same speed at say 12 volts. I can run a lot of my Northerns at about 9-10 volts with the 3/4” motor so therefore with a lower voltage it needs less resistance and for these I use about 24 ohms. For the the majority of six wheel steam chassis I use between 27 and 30 ohms depending on how fast they run at 12 volts, I always test run an engine before I do a rebuild to see what speed it runs at which I like. If the optimum speed is slower at say 12 volts and needs to run at about 14 volts then I up the resistance to about 32 ohms. if it is too fast then I use a lower resistance. Perhaps I am too fussy about how much smoke I like but doing it like this they all produce roughly the same smoke output at a speed that I like. The aim is to produce about .42 to .45 amps of power to feed the element and this for my elements works well. Mine are not quite the same as conventional kits on the market as I use a high temperature sleeve that the wire wraps around which reduces that direct contact to the wick which crisps them up. Mine will eventually fail but it takes a lot longer. 

When I pre make a batch they are marked as to what resistance they are wound to. Most as I mentioned are between 27 and 30 ohms. As an example run a plastic Atlantic with say 5 freight cars and a K5 with same five freight cars at the same voltage and see what speed they run at and how much smoke they produce. Then you have the switcher engines with smaller wheels, this is what I mean by "one size fit doesn't work for all engines". I have about 20 spare smoke units that are rebuilt with different resistance elements so it is quicker to swap one out. Once I have about six dead ones then I sit down for a few hours and rebuild them. I have quite a lot of steam engines and this works for me.

Hope this helps on how I rebuild smoke units. It has been one of my pet topics on having a good consistent smoke output on my engines at speeds I am comfortable with.


----------



## Yard King

flyernut said:


> Sorry, I disagree with your statement, "one size fit doesn't work for all engines".All the Gilbert smoke units are the same, except for maybe the HO unit, and the newer style 1 chamber units.If you work up a batch of pre-wound wicks, how would you determine which pre-wound wick would go into a specific engine?? Just thinking out loud....


Here are a couple of pictures of spare wick kits, spare units and a test rig once they are rebuilt. Each wick kit is kept in a sealed bag with its ohm reading. When it gets used a new one will go in it and its reading will be marked for future reference.


----------



## flyernut

Yard King said:


> Here are a couple of pictures of spare wick kits, spare units and a test rig once they are rebuilt. Each wick kit is kept in a sealed bag with its ohm reading. When it gets used a new one will go in it and its reading will be marked for future reference.
> 
> View attachment 594051
> 
> 
> View attachment 594052


Nice and neat, I like neat....


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## AmFlyer

That is impressive, there are more wicks packaged and ready to be installed than I have repaired in my entire life.
Anyhow, we need to focus on the 494 that is still not running. It is either the connections to the reverse unit fingers or the contact of the fingers on the drum. Since the motors both run in reverse when the reverse unit cycles it cannot be anything else.


----------



## Yard King

AmFlyer said:


> That is impressive, there are more wicks packaged and ready to be installed than I have repaired in my entire life.
> Anyhow, we need to focus on the 494 that is still not running. It is either the connections to the reverse unit fingers or the contact of the fingers on the drum. Since the motors both run in reverse when the reverse unit cycles it cannot be anything else.


i pulled a 360 chassis out to check the wiring.
I have two reds from the field coils going to the top right finger.
I have two blacks from the field coils going to the lower left finger.
I have two yellows from the brushes going to the lower right finger.
I have two greens from the brushes going to one side of the reverse coil to front truck pick up
I have black on rear truck pick up to other side of reverse coil and to top left finger.

From what I can see in the pictures it looks the same apart from just a single wire? soldered to the fingers. I assume they split out at some point to go to front and rear motors.

I still think the drum needs polishing to remove the black marks to eliminate a possible problem. It would help to lock it in a forward direction and then use a meter to trace the voltage when powered up.


----------



## mopac

I am going to agree with Tom. A finger not contacting drum correctly. When new they need to be bent down some. I have only replaced one set of fingers. And I had to disassemble and bend fingers down some. Re installed and ran fine. I will not make same mistake again. I would try that and see if it runs in both directions.

They have to be removed to bend properly. If you did not bend them down, that is your problem. This would be a good time to remove drum and polish it.


----------



## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> Think about the problem like this. The 494 has dual motors, both motors behave the same so the problem is not in the motors. When running forward or reverse all the motor windings, interconnecting wiring and track pickups are the same. In other words they do not have double wound fields to change rotation direction like some Lionel engines and some Gilbert accessories.
> The ONLY difference between forward and reverse is the direction of current flow through the field in relation to the armature; this current flow is determined only by the fingers and drum contacts in the reverse unit. If both motors run in one direction and not the other it cannot be the wiring. Something must be be wrong in the reverse unit.
> I am a little confused about your "nothing" comment. The drum sequences as F-N-R-N. Both N positions should have a slight humming sound In the non working F position the reverse unit coil should still produce a slight hum. That chassis is really clean.


I guess I should have said "neutral" instead of "nothing". There is a slight hum when it goes from reverse to the next "neutral" position. When it goes to F the hum gets very loud. I'll check the continuity from the drum to the wires later today. 

It appears on the top finger board the red wires are always in contact with the starboard side drum contact point and on the lower finger board port side the black is always in contact with the drum. (I followed the Portlines diagram) On the top the black wire goes from contacting the same contact point where the red wire is to no contact then to contacting the side where the black wire is on the lower finger board. 

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

mopac said:


> I am going to agree with Tom. A finger not contacting drum correctly. When new they need to be bent down some. I have only replaced one set of fingers. And I had to disassemble and bend fingers down some. Re installed and ran fine. I will not make same mistake again. I would try that and see if it runs in both directions.
> 
> They have to be removed to bend properly. If you did not bend them down, that is your problem. This would be a good time to remove drum and polish it.


As per Tom's suggestion I bent the fingers down before I installed them. However, I'll remove everything and give the drum some more attention and, at the same time, recheck the fingers before reinstalling. 

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

Can anyone tell me what position the drum needs to be in to set it in the "forward" position? Which pair of wires need to contact the fingers? 

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

Yard King,

I soldered new single wires to the contact points (same colors as the old ones) and then soldered them to the old wires. It was just easier to do and made it easier to reassemble. I put shrink tube on the solder points where I attached the new wires to the old ones. 

Joe


----------



## Yard King

OCJOER said:


> Can anyone tell me what position the drum needs to be in to set it in the "forward" position? Which pair of wires need to contact the fingers?
> 
> Joe


If you get the motors running in reverse then power off and on to a neutral and then power off and on again and if the drum has cycled correctly this should be forward and all the fingers are contacting the copper drum. With the power still on lock the lever to stop it dropping out again and now it should make tracing the voltage easier.


----------



## Yard King

OCJOER said:


> Yard King,
> 
> I soldered new single wires to the contact points (same colors as the old ones) and then soldered them to the old wires. It was just easier to do and made it easier to reassemble. I put shrink tube on the solder points where I attached the new wires to the old ones.
> 
> Joe


That’s what I was thinking you did


----------



## miracleworker

OCJOER said:


> As per Tom's suggestion I bent the fingers down before I installed them. However, I'll remove everything and give the drum some more attention and, at the same time, recheck the fingers before reinstalling.
> 
> Joe


In situations such as this, where a locomotive shows signs of providing a circuit between the rails, such as lights coming on, or sitting there humming but not moving, I will do the following manual test. As the unit sits there humming I will reach in appropriately with a non-conductive pushing tool (TOOTHPICK) and push, pull, or wiggle sideways the copper fingers. More than once this has located for me a problematic electrical connection.


----------



## miracleworker

Yard King said:


> It has been my experience that Flyer diesels in particular don’t like being packed away and not used for longish periods.
> 
> If they were mine I would be stripping down both motors and cleaning them, especially the commutators. The real main culprit is lilkey to be the reverse unit. The drum tarnishes and the fingers lose tension. It does mean removing the two finger boards and resetting them and also cleaning the drum.


Also, I my experience, very good advice. Commutators need to be clean, slots between the commutator segments need to be cleaned out with solvent, toothpick, air. The brushes need to be conductively clean, sliding freely in their holders, with proper spring tension on them. I probobly would not disassemble the motors right away. Things like that I take outside ( or well ventilated shed) and spray the living daylights out of the motors and reverse unit with CRC QD electrical cleaner. Then I immediately but CAREFULLY blow it off with air compressor. 

If needed after that, then comes the manual cleaning with very fine sandpaper, etc.

And of course make sure the drive gears of motor shafts and trucks are free to turn. I have acquired units where the grease is so hard the parts will not turn until it is cleaned out.


----------



## alaft61ri

Yard king is right about the drum looks like in rough shape if it was me I would replace it cleaning it I don't think it will help I see some dents diesel are tough believe me I know.lol


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## OCJOER

Miracleworker,

That's pretty much what I did. I broke the motor down completely cleaned everything off with electrical cleaner, blew it dry and reassembled. From what Yard is saying I still have to clean the drum more. I'm going to take it all apart again and remove the drum and see if that helps getting it cleaner. I've been looking for new drums but can't locate any. If anyone know a source please let me know. 

I'm going to try the suggestion of pushing down on the fingers with a toothpick and see if that helps. As I said, I bent the fingers down per Tom's suggestion.

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

Well, I'm still trying to figure out the 494. But in the meantime I took one of the 21160s cleaned it up a bit, put new brushes and springs in it and cleaned up the motor a bit. The jack that plugs into the tender had a broken wire so I juryrigged a new one and, tada, I have one running loco. It's pretty dirty and raggedy but it runs. Is there anything I can do to give it more traction? I've just put down a flat circle track around the tree this year and it makes it around but it does tend to spin the drive wheels. Am I missing any parts?


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> View attachment 594484
> 
> Well, I'm still trying to figure out the 494. But in the meantime I took one of the 21160s cleaned it up a bit, put new brushes and springs in it and cleaned up the motor a bit. The jack that plugs into the tender had a broken wire so I juryrigged a new one and, tada, I have one running loco. It's pretty dirty and raggedy but it runs. Is there anything I can do to give it more traction? I've just put down a flat circle track around the tree this year and it makes it around but it does tend to spin the drive wheels. Am I missing any parts?
> View attachment 594483
> 
> View attachment 594482


Is the shiny part in your picture the tire??? I would suggest changing the tire as it looks glazed over and/or hard...And it would appear the tire on the other wheel is missing, there should be a tire there..You can order new tires for the wheels.. Are they the grooved wheels or flat??


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## alaft61ri

This is my 21160


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## OCJOER

Hi Flyer,
The shiny part is the wheel. They're grooved wheels. Would you know the part number?


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Hi Flyer,
> The shiny part is the wheel. They're grooved wheels. Would you know the part number?


I don't know the part, and I can't seem to find it. Maybe AmFlyer,(Tom) will have a better answer...


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## AmFlyer

Just the thick band for the grooved wheels is SKU 05304, $2.50ea at PortLines. The replacement tire (rim) with band installed is SKU 06091, $20/pair. Doug has a note on the site saying he is running 3 weeks behind on shipping orders.


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## OCJOER

Well I finally got one of the 4-6-2 293 locomotives running. Of course it's the most run down looking engine I have. But it runs. I'm still not sure why the others don't run yet but they'll have to wait. 

As I said earlier I just put up a circle track (with 4 straight sections to make it larger) going around the tree. When I run the train the locomotive seems to rock a bit on it's wheels. At some point it rocks itself off the track, even at low speed. I put small nails in the track sections to hold them tightly to the MDF board that I built it on. Would I be better off removing the nails and allowing the track to bend as the train goes over it so that the wheels keep in better contact with the track? 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

It is always better to fasten the track but leave a little play, like 1/16". That is better than over nailing and flattening the ties. The track can sit right on the carpet, the engine should still yon but in long fiber carpets it can lead to derailments of fibers in the engine mechanism. Make sure are the track joints are tight and square to each other.
A 293 should not wobble at all, let alone enough to derail. Things to look for are loose insulators or metal tires not pushed on the white insulators exactly straight. The chassis may not be properly fastened into the engine shell. An axle could be bent.


----------



## OCJOER

Thanks Tom, I’ll loosen the nails tomorrow and see how that works. I removed the body to take the motor apart and clean it. When I did I noticed that the 2 mounting holes in the cast iron frame were broken. I used long screws and washers to reinstall the body so it’s not loose. I’m going to check the wheel alignment tomorrow and see if there’s an issue with one of them. 

This is one of the units wit the direct wired tender. I was going to put in one of the jacks and plugs but decided to leave it the way it is for now since it’s running. I cleaned the wheels and contact points so I’m getting good continuity from the track to the motor but I’m still getting a lot of sparking where the wheels contact the track. Is that normal?

Joe


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## AmFlyer

There should not be visible sparking at the wheel/rail contact points. Something is not clean. Are the brass wipers tight against the axles?


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## flyernut

On a 293, you should also have the sliding shoe pick-ups on the tender trucks to help with picking up current from the tracks. I've had locos that sparked quite alot and and the only cure was to replace the wheels with new. When I rebuild a tender, I start with the trucks. I remove the wheel sets, and clean the inside of the trucks, and that includes the axle holes. I then put a small dab of conductive grease in the axle holes. I also polish the copper pick-up strips and the metal wheels using my dremel and a buffing pad on the wheels..But the most important item is CLEAN TRACK. Watch as the loco goes around your loop. At every spot where it sparks, note that, and using a bright boy polish that spot. Keep doing that until the entire loop is cleaned.. Before you run anything, spray some contact cleaner on a rag and wipe down the track. If it still sparks bad, replace the wheels. Jeff Kane has them, the sintered ones, but not the brass, he's sold out..The engine should not wobble. One of the wheels or all of them are bad. The axle bushings in the chassis could also be bad. Bent axles are also a possibility.The wheels could also not be perpendicular to the axles..Did you have the wheels off of the chassis?.There could also be the possibility of some of the wheels/rims have flat spots. This is caused by operators, mostly kids lol, pushing engines around the track with no power on, causing a flat spot.I've seen that quite alot, remember, these are/were toys when purchased, and if the parents weren't around supervising the playing without having power, the temptation to push the engines was great. It would be hard on a 293 as it has pul-mor, but kids will be kids.


----------



## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> There should not be visible sparking at the wheel/rail contact points. Something is not clean. Are the brass wipers tight against the axles?


Hi Tom,

I dipped all the track in rust remover and dried it in the oven (don't tell mama) before I put it down. All the connections on the track are tight. 

I cleaned the wheels, axles and wipers with a dremel. I also had one loose one so I bent it into better contact. 

The wheels do seem loose on the track, Maybe they're not set out far enough. I'll check that today. 

Joe


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## OCJOER

Hi Flyernut,

As I noted above I cleaned the wheels, axles and contact strips. However, I did not take the trucks apart. They do have the shoe pick ups and I also cleaned those with the dremel. The springs on those seem a little loose. I'll check my box of springs and see if I can find a couple that I can replace those with. 

I think one of the loco wheels is sitting on it's axle crooked. When I take it off the track I can see a definite wobble in that wheel. I'm going to see if I can straighten it out when I get home from the shop today. I've still got a few days until Christmas and 4 other engines I can keep trying to figure out so there's still hope, lol. 

Thanks for all the help guys,
Joe


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> I dipped all the track in rust remover and dried it in the oven (don't tell mama) before I put it down. All the connections on the track are tight.
> 
> I cleaned the wheels, axles and wipers with a dremel. I also had one loose one so I bent it into better contact.
> 
> The wheels do seem loose on the track, Maybe they're not set out far enough. I'll check that today.
> 
> Joe


Yes, check all your gauging, both tender and loco.


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## AmFlyer

I recommend you get some spare pickup wheel sets to be able to swap out ones that are questionable. As Flyernut says, there is a lot of cleaning to do it right. If there were several running engines it would be easier to separate track issues from tender issues. If the truck sideframes are not square and parallel with each other it is hard to have constant good pickup. The sliding shoes should not be sparking. 
When I use track that has been in storage for a year or more I clean all of the rail tops with fine sandpaper on a rubber block, then wipe it with a solvent. I also clean the track pins with the sandpaper and apply some conductive grease to the pins. Same with any place there is a track power clip. Sand the rail flange and clean it, apply conductive grease, then put on the track power clip.


----------



## OCJOER

Well since I'm now a real retired guy (finally pulled the pin) I spent the day in the garage with the engines and track. Well since the track was attached to the board that holds up the tree I really dealt with the track where it sat. I took out all the fasteners and got out the scotchbrite and went over the 16 pieces of track and made sure they were all absolutely clean. It took a little pushing and shoving to move the tree out far enough from the corner so I could get behind it to get the nails out and clean everything. I put a few nails in about every third track just to hold it in place. 

I then took the tenders apart on the 21160 and one of the 293s. I pulled the wheels and went over them with scotchbrite as well as the axles. I took some 400 sandpaper to the copper pickups and the spring loaded pickup. When I measured the continuity from the track to the top of the truck rivet there was almost no resistance, (.3) I checked all the wiring and found one loose finger on the 293 tender. I took that new finger tab off and rebent it and it worked fine. I tested both locos by putting their respective tenders on a piece of track and holding the loco. After I put the new tires on the 21160 it ran great. The only issue with the 293 was that it would go forward, then neutral, then reverse but the second 2 points for forward and reverse on the drum wouldn't seem to work. I tested the fingers and got nothing. I figured I'd just go past those 2 points when it as on the track and go to the points that worked. However, when I put it all back together and onto the track it worked the way it was supposed to, f, n, r, n, f, n, r. Not sure what was causing the problem when I was testing it but it's fine now. 

So now both of those 2 engines are running around the track great. Every once in a while I get a random spark but I figure it's going to happen. 

Now I just have to straighten out the wheel on the other 293 and put the other 21160 back together. I'm still trying to figure out the original problem with the 494 engine. I'm going to pull it all apart again, maybe tomorrow, and try and figure that out. 

Every one has been a great help and inspiration to keep going until I got the problems solved. Thanks again for all your help. I'll keep you posted on the 494. I'll also try and post some photos of the engines..

Joe


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## AmFlyer

That is great! Sounds like several engines are now running well. 
When you add cars to the track check all the wheel gauges. A dime between the backs of the wheels works well. I find at least a third of the Gilbert cars have wheels that are now out of gauge. All cars made by Lionel prior to 2017 will be 1/10” too narrow. New Lionel releases are finally correctly gauged. All the Lionel engines anything made by AM, SHS and MTH will be correct.


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Well since I'm now a real retired guy (finally pulled the pin) I spent the day in the garage with the engines and track. Well since the track was attached to the board that holds up the tree I really dealt with the track where it sat. I took out all the fasteners and got out the scotchbrite and went over the 16 pieces of track and made sure they were all absolutely clean. It took a little pushing and shoving to move the tree out far enough from the corner so I could get behind it to get the nails out and clean everything. I put a few nails in about every third track just to hold it in place.
> 
> I then took the tenders apart on the 21160 and one of the 293s. I pulled the wheels and went over them with scotchbrite as well as the axles. I took some 400 sandpaper to the copper pickups and the spring loaded pickup. When I measured the continuity from the track to the top of the truck rivet there was almost no resistance, (.3) I checked all the wiring and found one loose finger on the 293 tender. I took that new finger tab off and rebent it and it worked fine. I tested both locos by putting their respective tenders on a piece of track and holding the loco. After I put the new tires on the 21160 it ran great. The only issue with the 293 was that it would go forward, then neutral, then reverse but the second 2 points for forward and reverse on the drum wouldn't seem to work. I tested the fingers and got nothing. I figured I'd just go past those 2 points when it as on the track and go to the points that worked. However, when I put it all back together and onto the track it worked the way it was supposed to, f, n, r, n, f, n, r. Not sure what was causing the problem when I was testing it but it's fine now.
> 
> So now both of those 2 engines are running around the track great. Every once in a while I get a random spark but I figure it's going to happen.
> 
> Now I just have to straighten out the wheel on the other 293 and put the other 21160 back together. I'm still trying to figure out the original problem with the 494 engine. I'm going to pull it all apart again, maybe tomorrow, and try and figure that out.
> 
> Every one has been a great help and inspiration to keep going until I got the problems solved. Thanks again for all your help. I'll keep you posted on the 494. I'll also try and post some photos of the engines..
> 
> Joe


Do yourself a favor and get a dremel tool. You can do just anything with one, from polishing, cutting, drilling, etc. I have a variable speed dremel, and wouldn't be without one. You CAN get in trouble with one however. I bought these buffing/sanding wheels several weeks ago and love them. They are scotch-bright round pads, 2 different grades of coarseness, and many buffing pads. I believe I paid $12 dollars for 30 of them with free shipping. I also have another box with brass and steel brushes in different configurations. They were also very inexpensive, alot cheaper than the dremel brand.. I also have a flexible shaft that can be used with my dremel..My family is going to have A LOT














of fun when I croak,lol!!


----------



## OCJOER

Morning Flyer,

I’ve got 2 Dremels, one is rechargeable the other is a plug in model. I do have to go shopping for more attachments though. Where did you find the ones you have?

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

Hi Tom,

when you say put a dime between the backs of the wheels do you mean along the axle?
Joe


----------



## AmFlyer

Yes. If the backs of the wheels are far enough apart for a dime to just fit between them the gauge is correct.


----------



## OCJOER

Thank you Tom. I’ll check out whatever cars I use with that.


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Morning Flyer,
> 
> I’ve got 2 Dremels, one is rechargeable the other is a plug in model. I do have to go shopping for more attachments though. Where did you find the ones you have?
> 
> Joe


Ebay..I told "Defender" about them, but he had a health issue with them. I'll let him answer further if he cares to.


----------



## OCJOER

Well I spent some time in the garage yesterday and got the other 21160 and 293 engines running. The 293 did have a cockeyed wheel. Just took a little nudging and it's running true. The 21160 was the one with the plug on the engine wire and I opened the tender and saw that one of the pins on the plug wasn't making contact with the plug on the tender. Just bent in back into place and now that one is running. Well, I have to order some side rod screws since 2 are missing. I'm also ordering all new tires for them. 

I'm going to take the 494 all apart again and try and figure out why nothing is turning on that. I'll recheck the drum, fingers and wires and see if I can find the flaw. 

Joe


----------



## AmFlyer

The fleet of operable engines is growing!


----------



## alaft61ri

Nothing turns does the light work I know it a silly question is that single motor or dual sounds like wiring or fingers not making good contact when taking it apart take photos and post it maybe we can see something your not.
Al


----------



## OCJOER

alaft61ri said:


> Nothing turns does the light work I know it a silly question is that single motor or dual sounds like wiring or fingers not making good contact when taking it apart take photos and post it maybe we can see something your not.
> Al


Hi Al,

The light lights up. I think one of the fingers is loose because when I push on it in the reverse position both motors turn in the reverse direction, slowly but they turn. The drum turns when I take the power off and on again but when it gets to the forward position nothing happens, even when I push on the finger. I'll try and post photos when I get back from some Christmas shopping. 

Joe


----------



## alaft61ri

Ok have fun


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## OCJOER

alaft61ri said:


> Nothing turns does the light work I know it a silly question is that single motor or dual sounds like wiring or fingers not making good contact when taking it apart take photos and post it maybe we can see something your not.
> Al


Hi Al,

The light lights up. I think one of the fingers is loose because when I push on it in the reverse position both motors turn in the reverse direction, slowly but they turn. The drum turns when I take the power off and on again but when it gets to the forward position nothing happens, even when I push on the finger. I'll try and post photos when I get back from some Christmas shopping. 

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

Here are the best photos I can get of the drum/wiring. As I said, when the drum is in the reverse position the motors run, slowly, then when I switch the power off/on the drum moves to the neutral position. When I cycle again the drum moves to the forward position but I get no movement. If I press on the fingers I still get no forward movement.


----------



## alaft61ri

I am on my way out give me a few hours . One thing I don't like is one finger on inside don't like how it is. I will get back to you later.


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## flyernut

Here's a thought.I was having a ton of running problems with 1 of my diesels, and I replaced/checked everything I could think of...except for 1 thing..the "brush bracket assembly", part # XA11454-RP. I replaced that, and the engine ran perfect in all directions.. Now, I'm not saying that could be the cause, but give it a look-see and see if the brushes remain in contact with the armature while spinning the armature by hand...worth a try, you've done everything else......after mucking with this engine, you'll see why I just LOVE working on these....NOT!!!


----------



## Yard King

flyernut said:


> Here's a thought.I was having a ton of running problems with 1 of my diesels, and I replaced/checked everything I could think of...except for 1 thing..the "brush bracket assembly", part # XA11454-RP. I replaced that, and the engine ran perfect in all directions.. Now, I'm not saying that could be the cause, but give it a look-see and see if the brushes remain in contact with the armature while spinning the armature by hand...worth a try, you've done everything else......after mucking with this engine, you'll see why I just LOVE working on these....NOT!!!


put the chassis on the track again and cycle the reverse unit to the forward direction and lock the reverse unit. With the power on squeeze the two brushes on one motor to create a better contact and see if that does anything. I have done this on a few occasions and found it works, for some reason the brushes on the end can get a bit high resistance and pressing them helps break that resistance.

if that doesn’t work keep the unit on the track and get a voltmeter out and trace the voltage from one rail through the reverse unit/motors to see where the voltage disappears.


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## alaft61ri

This is my 490 I believe the wiring is the same. Here is some photos yours is different.


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## OCJOER

flyernut said:


> Here's a thought.I was having a ton of running problems with 1 of my diesels, and I replaced/checked everything I could think of...except for 1 thing..the "brush bracket assembly", part # XA11454-RP. I replaced that, and the engine ran perfect in all directions.. Now, I'm not saying that could be the cause, but give it a look-see and see if the brushes remain in contact with the armature while spinning the armature by hand...worth a try, you've done everything else......after mucking with this engine, you'll see why I just LOVE working on these....NOT!!!


Hi Flyer,

I'll have to wait until after Christmas and try that. With just a couple days to go and some things to still get done before Santa comes to town I'm not going to have time. 

Have a Merry Christmas,
Joe


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## OCJOER

Morning Yard King,

Ditto what I said to Flyer. I've checked the continuity from the track to all the wires and it's good so I think the problem has to be closer to the motor. 

Merry Christmas,
Joe


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## OCJOER

Alafti,

When I put in the new finger boards I soldered new wires to the board and then connected each of those to the old wires. That may be why mine looks a little different. 

Merry Christmas, 
Joe


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