# Question about a 625 Orange Shell Tank Car



## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

Hello everyone… this question is from my brother… smile…

We have a 625 orange Shell tank car. It is a little warped which leads me to believe it’s authentic. I’m having trouble discerning if the frame is the right one. Our 625 sits on a Type II die cast frame. The books indicate the tank is from 1946. But I’m not sure the frame is from 1946. It could be from 1947. So, is it possible to have a 625 orange tank car on a Type II die cast frame? It’s a rare care (worth maybe $1,000), so it’s an important question. From me… one box end says 513… any significance??

Appreciate your insight…smile… thank you so much… you are appreciated… smile… TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Welcome back. For info this new thread was started in the "General Model Train Discussion" section. To start a new thread in the S scale section it is first necessary to select and open the S scale section on the site. Do that by clicking on the five bar symbol between "new" and your individual logo in the upper right corner of the screen. Then scroll down to S scale and click on it to open. Then select the start new discussion option.
Based on the pictures the painted orange 625 tank appears to be original. It was not made with that 1948 chassis. It should be on a plastic 1946 chassis with thin shank couplers. These orange tank cars require careful visual inspection because some very good fakes were made several decades ago.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No need for a new thread Tom, I moved it. Just report a thread in the wrong place and we'll move it rather than create duplicate threads.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks John. I know nothing about early Shell cars. Tom is correct about it a 1948 chassis. The brass
weighted couplers were only used in 1948.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks John! I was helping the poster so that future new threads are in the desired forum.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

So does that mean it’s not worth much now?


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

There is also the matter of the box. Many 1946 boxes have Tru-Model rather than 3/16" scale printed on them, a carry over from 1941. It is possible this is a 1948 box. So then we have a 1948 box containing a 1948 chassis with a 1946 painted orange tank mounted on it.
The R F Giardina reproductions reported used a black 1946 tank, painted orange and a 1947 chassis with thick shank couplers. The black lettering was rubber stamped but the quality of the stamping was less than factory. To me this tank body looks factory.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Welcome back. For info this new thread was started in the "General Model Train Discussion" section. To start a new thread in the S scale section it is first necessary to select and open the S scale section on the site. Do that by clicking on the five bar symbol between "new" and your individual logo in the upper right corner of the screen. Then scroll down to S scale and click on it to open. Then select the start new discussion option.
> Based on the pictures the painted orange 625 tank appears to be original. It was not made with that 1948 chassis. It should be on a plastic 1946 chassis with thin shank couplers. These orange tank cars require careful visual inspection because some very good fakes were made several decades ago.


Thank you Tom...


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> No need for a new thread Tom, I moved it. Just report a thread in the wrong place and we'll move it rather than create duplicate threads.


Thank you John... smile... I am learning... smile... TrainGirl


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> There is also the matter of the box. Many 1946 boxes have Tru-Model rather than 3/16" scale printed on them, a carry over from 1941. It is possible this is a 1948 box. So then we have a 1948 box containing a 1948 chassis with a 1946 painted orange tank mounted on it.
> The R F Giardina reproductions reported used a black 1946 tank, painted orange and a 1947 chassis with thick shank couplers. The black lettering was rubber stamped but the quality of the stamping was less than factory. To me this tank body looks factory.


Thank you Tom... smile... so it looks like the car and chassis do not really belong together... smile... geez... I happened to come across this when looking for the new thread... American Flyer Tank Cars (1 of 5) ..... notice the 4th one down... I notice ours does not have the little drive wheel? like the original one does... does that 4th one look similar to ours? it does not have the drive wheel... not that I doubt you... smile... just curious and looking for insight... smile... and do you have an idea of value? thank you so much... your thoughts are appreciated... smile... Rhonda


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The 4th orange Shell tank car picture is a repro. The lettering looks good, that is why it really requires the appraiser to hold the car in their hands. Note the 4th car has no warping. Also note the pictured OB has 3/16” scale, not Tru-model on it. That is why this is not a 100% confirmation. The wheel you refer to is the brake wheel. That is a feature of the 1946 plastic chassis. Your 1948 chassis does not have one. I still think you tank is original.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> The 4th orange Shell tank car picture is a repro. The lettering looks good, that is why it really requires the appraiser to hold the car in their hands. Note the 4th car has no warping. Also note the pictured OB has 3/16” scale, not Tru-model on it. That is why this is not a 100% confirmation. The wheel you refer to is the brake wheel. That is a feature of the 1946 plastic chassis. Your 1948 chassis does not have one. I still think you tank is original.


Thank you so much Tom... smile... will pass on to my bro... smile... I am coming more and more to love AF trains... and more... smile... such interesting facets of information... smile... take care... smile... TrainGirl


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

Train Girl said:


> Thank you so much Tom... smile... will pass on to my bro... smile... I am coming more and more to love AF trains... and more... smile... such interesting facets of information... smile... take care... smile... TrainGirl


Oh yes... what about idea of value?? thank you... smile... TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Train Girl, you have yet to post an easy question to answer.. You have two choices. One, find a 1946 frame and sell the car for full guide price. That should not be too hard, a lot of black tank cars were made in 1946 and sell for $30 or so. Second choice is sell it as is. Hard to estimate the value as is. Maybe 1/2 guide price.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, you have yet to post an easy question to answer.. You have two choices. One, find a 1946 frame and sell rhe car for full guide price. That should not be too hard, a lot of black tank cars were made in 1946 and sell for $30 or so. Second choice is sell it as is. Hard to estimate the value as is. Maybe 1/2 guide price.


Thank you Tom...smile... you are great...smile... TrainGirl


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, you have yet to post an easy question to answer.. You have two choices. One, find a 1946 frame and sell the car for full guide price. That should not be too hard, a lot of black tank cars were made in 1946 and sell for $30 or so. Second choice is sell it as is. Hard to estimate the value as is. Maybe 1/2 guide price.


Hi Tom... my brother says we have a Type I die cast frame with the long steps. His research says it was used on some cars in 1946. Would that include the orange ones?... Appreciate your thoughts...smile... thank you... TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Lets consider what is possible given that all Gilbert factory production records were destroyed in 1967. 
First, some 1946 tank cars had Type I diecast frames. All the ones I have seen reported were on black tanks but that does not prove none were on Orange tanks. The frame pictured looks to me like a short step frame. The reason I say that is on the long step frames I have seen, the width of the step is slightly less than the length of the step (longer than wide.) Those steps look square to me but I could be wrong. The remaining issue then is how did the car end up with 1948 only brass weighted thick shank couplers. All 1946 production had unweighted couplers with thin shanks.
My favorite explanation for the car is that in 1948 Gilbert found some leftover orange Shell tanks and assembled them for separate sale. Maybe even through the factory store for employees. Unfortunately there is no way to prove it so I did not mention it earlier. The key task is to verify the frame as short or long step, but even if it turns out to be long the couplers are problematic.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Lets consider what is possible given that all Gilbert factory production records were destroyed in 1967.
> First, some 1946 tank cars had Type I diecast frames. All the ones I have seen reported were on black tanks but that does not prove none were on Orange tanks. The frame pictured looks to me like a short step frame. The reason I say that is on the long step frames I have seen, the width of the step is slightly less than the length of the step (longer than wide.) Those steps look square to me but I could be wrong. The remaining issue then is how did the car end up with 1948 only brass weighted thick shank couplers. All 1946 production had unweighted couplers with thin shanks.
> My favorite explanation for the car is that in 1948 Gilbert found some leftover orange Shell tanks and assembled them for separate sale. Maybe even through the factory store for employees. Unfortunately there is no way to prove it so I did not mention it earlier. The key task is to verify the frame as short or long step, but even if it turns out to be long the couplers are problematic.


Thank you... smile... will pass on... smile...


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

Train Girl said:


> Thank you... smile... will pass on... smile...


Hi Tom…and anyone else who would like to chime in…smile… my bro found a black tank with the long step type 1 frame… it is a metal frame…guessing from 1946… would it be okay for our orange shell to be on that black frame… appreciate your thoughts… thank you so much… smile… TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I think it would be ok to put the orange tank on that frame. That is definitely a long step chassis. The couplers look like thin shank. There are no journal boxes which is ok as well. I am curious if the center area of the chassis around the tank mounting screw hole is flat (smooth), and if there is a washer between the chassis and the tank.


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## AmFlyerFan (Jan 27, 2019)

I'm just following along on this history lesson. Fascinating!
(nothing to add though). (Too cold to ice fish today.)


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I went ice fishing here yesterday.....caught 22 lbs of ice......


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> I think it would be ok to put the orange tank on that frame. That is definitely a long step chassis. The couplers look like thin shank. There are no journal boxes which is ok as well. I am curious if the center area of the chassis around the tank mounting screw hole is flat (smooth), and if there is a washer between the chassis and the tank.


 Hi Tom... will pass on to my brother and let you know... is there a reason?? am sure there is...smile... thank you so much... smile... TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You mean about the washer on the black tank car? Yes there is. I am curious about use of washers prior to the time the chassis was changed to include a raised "washer" as an integral part. 
Plastic chassis cars included a brake wheel. The Type I die cast chassis did not include a brake wheel and there were no holes at the corners of the chassis. The die cast chassis you have has at least two visible holes. This is possibly a Type IA chassis. The Type IA was a pre-war chassis that was reused midway through the 1946 production runs when Gilbert determined the plastic chassis were not acceptable. The reported timing of Type IA use also aligns with some historical detective work on the timing of missing journal boxes. Type IA's were also used under some boxcars, hence the need for the corner holes to accept the boxcar body mounting pins. The Type IA was then replaced in production with the Type I when those were designed and put into production.
You keep posting really challenging questions so I am trying to get as much information as possible about the construction details of the cars.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> You mean about the washer on the black tank car? Yes there is. I am curious about use of washers prior to the time the chassis was changed to include a raised "washer" as an integral part.
> Plastic chassis cars included a brake wheel. The Type I die cast chassis did not include a brake wheel and there were no holes at the corners of the chassis. The die cast chassis you have has at least two visible holes. This is possibly a Type IA chassis. The Type IA was a pre-war chassis that was reused midway through the 1946 production runs when Gilbert determined the plastic chassis were not acceptable. The reported timing of Type IA use also aligns with some historical detective work on the timing of missing journal boxes. Type IA's were also used under some boxcars, hence the need for the corner holes to accept the boxcar body mounting pins. The Type IA was then replaced in production with the Type I when those were designed and put into production.
> You keep posting really challenging questions so I am trying to get as much information as possible about the construction details of the cars.


Fascinating... smile... this black car does not seem to be a 625... cannot really tell... could ask my bro as he has it... but is this car valuable on its own?? my bro was thinking it did not have much value... smile... will pass on your remarks... smile... you are much appreciated... smile... TrainGirl...


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyerFan said:


> I'm just following along on this history lesson. Fascinating!
> (nothing to add though). (Too cold to ice fish today.)


Am glad you are finding this interesting too... smile...


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

Old_Hobo said:


> I went ice fishing here yesterday.....caught 22 lbs of ice......


And thank you for making me laugh... smile...


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

You are welcome! And enjoy working on that tank car.....interesting topic, and a lot of fun!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Train Girl, the black shell tank car is a 625. It is usually worth about $20. This one is in excellent+ condition with the long step chassis so perhaps $30. Add to that there may be a buyer looking for this specific car to fill out a 1946 set, so top end maybe $45.
1946 is a year with many interesting variations but many collectors focus on the 5 digit era and ignore 1946.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, the black shell tank car is a 625. It is usually worth about $20. This one is in excellent+ condition with the long step chassis so perhaps $30. Add to that there may be a buyer looking for this specific car to fill out a 1946 set, so top end maybe $45.
> 1946 is a year with many interesting variations but many collectors focus on the 5 digit era and ignore 1946.


Yes... my bro thought it was probably worth $30.00... so thank you for verifying... smile... 

My brother is impressed by your knowledge…smile… he said it must be a type 1A prewar frame because it does have the 4 holes at the corners… however, no washers and no flat area… am including a few photos...smile... so guess okay to switch chassis on the black one then for the orange one... smile... TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

There must be something seriously wrong with me that I think this is fun. At least I spend an hour a day actually running some American Flyer trains.
Train Girl, that chassis does have the flat center where the mounting screw hole is. Thanks for the washer info. With the 4 corner holes this is definitely a IA chassis, great find! I hope you get a great price for the car.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> There must be something seriously wrong with me that I think this is fun. At least I spend an hour a day actually running some American Flyer trains.
> Train Girl, that chassis does have the flat center where the mounting screw hole is. Thanks for the washer info. With the 4 corner holes this is definitely a IA chassis, great find! I hope you get a great price for the car.


Thank you Tom... smile... I wonder how you find time to run trains... smile... seems like you are on the forum all of the time... smile... many blessings to you for your insight and knowledge... smile... TrainGirl


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

With the Covid status in California we almost never leave the house, I need to do something. The layout calls, so it gets used frequently.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

I can't think of a better thing to do Tom. Fooling with the layout tends to take my mind off the rest of the world and is relaxing. I also saw where SoCal had some more high winds that took out trees and power lines.

Kenny


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Yep, more high Santa Anna winds, but just for 18 hours. They peaked around 50mph at our house, just tipped over a couple of patio chairs. The wind gusts reached 85mph in some of the inland valleys. Yesterday was the first wintery day this year, the high was just under 60 degrees. For the last month it has been in the 70's every day.
With a layout of this size there is always something to be done. I now have 5 bad order engines, all but one is a failed or squealing smoke unit fan. There is no hurry to get to them, I still have 45 others to choose from. I am really happy with the passenger car mods I made to eliminate the gap between the cars. They look so much better in the station and running along the layout trackage.


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## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tom I have to agree about how those passenger cars do look good with the closed gaps. As you say, there is always something to do on a layout. In my case more detailing. I've got several engines that need attention as well. That is why we have cold winters here in north central Illinois, to get train work done! I got several branches and small limbs down in the yard from several of those 45-50 mph high wind occurrences, not to mention a recent ice storm then snow on top of the ice. I never get excited about all the yard clutter. I will get it cleaned up in the spring like always. No since in cleaning up each time just to do it all over again. It sounds like you were lucky to just have a couple of patio chairs tipped over. I would imagine living near the ocean as you do, that just under 60 degrees combined with the ocean dampness was pretty chilly. That was always the case in Florida when we went to the Daytona 500. At night the temperature in February down there is in the low 60's. high 50's and combined with a breeze off the ocean makes for a very chilly night. I remember more than one year when the intake manifolds on the our dirt track late models had frost on them since we were running alcohol fuel. I realize that was Atlantic ocean air but still ocean moisture combined with low temps is still chilly. 

Kenny


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> With the Covid status in California we almost never leave the house, I need to do something. The layout calls, so it gets used frequently.
> 
> View attachment 553163


I am just checking in to see if there was more said... smile... what an awesome layout... smile... much more than my dad had up... smile... he ran his trains mostly around the holidays and when his TCA buddies would visit... smile... I am impressed... smile... and I feel for you if you are in California... I love that area... however, am glad you enjoy playing with your layout... smile... yes, the COVID thing has affected many... smile... take care...TrainGirl


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Yep, more high Santa Anna winds, but just for 18 hours. They peaked around 50mph at our house, just tipped over a couple of patio chairs. The wind gusts reached 85mph in some of the inland valleys. Yesterday was the first wintery day this year, the high was just under 60 degrees. For the last month it has been in the 70's every day.
> With a layout of this size there is always something to be done. I now have 5 bad order engines, all but one is a failed or squealing smoke unit fan. There is no hurry to get to them, I still have 45 others to choose from. I am really happy with the passenger car mods I made to eliminate the gap between the cars. They look so much better in the station and running along the layout trackage.


smile...


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Train Girl, we also do Christmas layouts, here is a picture of the most recent. We sometimes play with trains over the holidays, but when in the layout room we "operate" the trains on that layout. Right now I have a backlog of about 200' of track to clean, some of which has not been cleaned in four years. One of the less fun things of a larger, complex layout.


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## Train Girl (Aug 14, 2020)

AmFlyer said:


> Train Girl, we also do Christmas layouts, here is a picture of the most recent. We sometimes play with trains over the holidays, but when in the layout room we "operate" the trains on that layout. Right now I have a backlog of about 200' of track to clean, some of which has not been cleaned in four years. One of the less fun things of a larger, complex layout.
> 
> 
> View attachment 553539


How nice...smile... my brother was impressed with your layout too... smile...


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Thanks, they are fun to do.


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