# Made in Viet Nam



## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I received a 6 pack of Lionel ore cars and there was a large label on the shipping carton declairing that the ore cars were made in Viet Nam.

I have read dozens of times on all the forums that Lionel or any manufacture cannot remove tooling from China. So, did Lionel manufacture new tooling out of China to produce these cars or can tooling be removed from China.

Either case I wonder why Lionel didn't transfer the tooling to the good ole USA to produce these ore cars.

Bill


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Eric’s trains reviewed some hoppers recently that were made in Vietnam.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I'm wondering if they used Weaver tooling, but a quick search for Weaver ore cars came up empty.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

I'm wondering if this ore car tooling might have come from a fairly recent Lionel acquisition. The only "existing" tooling that I'm aware of for ore cars would be Lionel, MTH, Atlas-O, K-Line and RMT.

I really don't know what to believe anymore regarding tooling in China. I do know that the Lionel Milk Cars have been quite the fiasco in that they were announced over 3+ years ago as a China-based project. Then something happened that caused Lionel to move the project to Romania. Apparently, that was like going from the frying pan into the fire, because Lionel ultimately gave up on that project -- reportedly saying they'd need to re-invest in tooling to give the Milk Cars (and rotary gondolas as well if I'm not mistaken) any chance of seeing the light of day again. Now there have been reports that the Milk Cars are in fact due out later this month. So who knows where those were manufactured!!! 

As for Vietnam as a factory location... I suppose if the math works, Lionel will have trains manufactured anywhere. The guys in Lionel's boardroom making these decisions are not train guys -- they can just as easily be executives at a company making widgets. As a result, nobody at Lionel knows what's gonna arrive in North Carolina until the containers with finished product arrive in the warehouse. So it is what it is.


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## PRR1950 (Oct 26, 2013)

And what makes anyone think that those ore cars were not actually cast in China, shipped to Viet Nam for painting and final assembly, and then labeled as "Made in Viet Nam." The world of tariffs and taxes allows for multiple definitions of "manufacturing," some based on where most "value" is added in the process. There may not be much value in simple casting, and dealing with two Communist countries makes the wording even more questionable.

Just food for thought form a retired IRS agent .

Chuck


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Not due out this month but re-cataloged in this months addition. Hopefully, we'll find out in a couple of weeks.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

PRR1950 said:


> And what makes anyone think that those ore cars were not actually cast in China, shipped to Viet Nam for painting and final assembly, and then labeled as "Made in Viet Nam." The world of tariffs and taxes allows for multiple definitions of "manufacturing," some based on where most "value" is added in the process. There may not be much value in simple casting, and dealing with two Communist countries makes the wording even more questionable.
> 
> Just food for thought form a retired IRS agent .
> 
> Chuck


That’s a good point. I watched a show recently on adulterated honey. After the US added a sizable tariff to counteract Chinese dumping of the stuff, they trans shipped it thru various SE Asia countries to try to avoid the tariff.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

If LL Bean can make much of their product line in Vietnam, so can Lionel I suppose. Vietnam is the next cheap labor pool in a long history of Asian manufacturing. 

I remember when “made in” Japan, Taiwan, Korea and Hong Kong was considered a label for cheap/poor quality. Now if we get any train items from these countries, they are considered superior to the Chinese products...

Tom


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> Not due out this month but re-cataloged in this months addition. Hopefully, we'll find out in a couple of weeks.


Thanks for clarifying that point, Gary. So you're referring to the Milk Cars "possibly" being catalog'd again in Lionel's new catalog due out on 1/20? Even as recently as last year's missed delivery estimates, I was thinking we'd be looking at mid-year 2020 at the earliest for actual delivery of the Milk Cars from _wherever_ they're being manufactured...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

it all boils down to cost unfortunately , quality is a very poor third runner in this scenario ...
and 'cost' does include tariffs, even if the actual assembly or casting costs -may- be higher, there -could- be lower tariff [or even shipping] associated with the end location ..
it's not that easy to figure out the actual 'why' ..


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Krieglok said:


> If LL Bean can make much of their product line in Vietnam, so can Lionel I suppose. Vietnam is the next cheap labor pool in a long history of Asian manufacturing.
> 
> I remember when “made in” Japan, Taiwan, Korea and Hong Kong was considered a label for cheap/poor quality. Now if we get any train items from these countries, they are considered superior to the Chinese products...
> 
> Tom


The Japanese have been making excellent quality electronics since the '50's. It's too bad that number is dwindling.

Top shelf amateur radio gear and high-end professional and semi-pro gear is still made in Japan.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

seayakbill said:


> I received a 6 pack of Lionel ore cars and there was a large label on the shipping carton declairing that the ore cars were made in Viet Nam.
> 
> .....
> 
> View attachment 520618


At the last couple of Allentown ATMA train shows, the regular big-name dealers were selling these 6-packs of ore cars for just around $100. That's SIGNIFICANTLY more reasonable than Lionel's former ore cars of years ago that were priced north of $40 or $50 each. So whatever tooling Lionel is now using, or whatever country is actually manufacturing these latest ore cars, Lionel is pricing the cars so it's considerably easier to create long ore-car, unit-trains. 

David


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> At the last couple of Allentown ATMA train shows, the regular big-name dealers were selling these 6-packs of ore cars for just around $100. That's SIGNIFICANTLY more reasonable than Lionel's former ore cars of years ago that were priced north of $40 or $50 each. So whatever tooling Lionel is now using, or whatever country is actually manufacturing these latest ore cars, Lionel is pricing the cars so it's considerably easier to create long ore-car, unit-trains.
> 
> David


Yep, priced right. The ore cars are identical down to the rivits compared to older Lionel ore cars even though manufactured in different countries. A photo of the new Erie Mining ore car compared to a Lionel ore car from many years ago.

Bill


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I agree with the idea the parts are still made in China but assembled in Viet Nam to skirt the tariffs. China won't allow the dies to leave the factory and I doubt Lionel had new ones made.

Pete


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Maybe they Ghosned then out.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Norton said:


> I agree with the idea the parts are still made in China but assembled in Viet Nam to skirt the tariffs. China won't allow the dies to leave the factory and I doubt Lionel had new ones made.
> 
> Pete


If the parts were manufactured in China but assembled in Viet Nam wouldn't the current label be somewhat misleading.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Bill, I am no expert on international trade but its been widely reported many items from China are being diverted through other countries to avoid the tariffs. That makes more sense to me than Lionel or their factories actually moving equipment out of China.
My opinion only.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Norton said:


> I agree with the idea the parts are still made in China but assembled in Viet Nam to skirt the tariffs. China won't allow the dies to leave the factory and I doubt Lionel had new ones made.
> 
> Pete


We'll probably never know the real truth as it relates to the Milk Car fiasco. I was always under the impression that the project STARTED in China originally about 3+ years ago, but then for some unknown reason was re-located to Romania. Whether it was tooling or various parts that got shipped to Romania was never openly explained. But then Lionel reportedly could never get satisfactory production out of Romania -- or so that's what we've been told at train shows by Lionel personnel. So the party line became Lionel re-invested in new tooling to ultimately get the Milk Cars (and I believe rotary gondolas too) made in Lord-knows-where. So we shall see. 

As I've shared recently.... I just don't know what or who to believe anymore. 

David


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

seayakbill said:


> If the parts were manufactured in China but assembled in Viet Nam wouldn't the current label be somewhat misleading.


Misleading info from China and/or Vietnam: your surprised?


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## Rich883 (Jul 15, 2015)

Moving tooling and fixtures out of China is not impossible. I have relocated electronic items in the broadcast space in and out of China, Brazil and Thailand. It is possible, and contrary to popular belief not all tooling is lost to the Chinese. There are some specific rules around country of origin, it is not always a simple thing to manipulate.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Electronic items are easier to move around. I have my boards made in China, but I used to have them made in the US until my supplier went out of business. If I ever find a price competitive place in the US, I will move them back here again.


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## Rich883 (Jul 15, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Electronic items are easier to move around. I have my boards made in China, but I used to have them made in the US until my supplier went out of business. If I ever find a price competitive place in the US, I will move them back here again.


John, agree pc boards are simpler to move, but I was referring to test fixtures, assembly fixtures and tooling - extrusions and molds.


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## C.Vigs (Jul 30, 2015)

I work for a manufacturing firm with facilities in China and North America and deal with tariffs and country of origin issues daily. Lets take a cable assembly being imported into the US as an example.

A cable assembly made in China would obviously have China as the country of origin and full tariff applied. 
A cable assembly assembled in Mexico with plugs made in China and cable from not-China will have a country of origin of Mexico, and tariff only applied to the value of the plugs. 
This is where it gets interesting - if assemble a cable in Mexico, with cable from China and plugs from not-China, the value of the entire cable assembly (plugs and cable) is tariffed as if it had been entirely made in China.

What does this mean for Lionel? If they assembled these ore cars in Vietnam with all components from China, full tariff would still apply and the only savings would possibly be labor. They could claim Vietnam as country of origin of the final product, but that doesn't necessarily matter for tariffs - the components do. The only way to mitigate tariff would be to do final assembly and make a "significant" portion of the product outside of China (with "significant" being an abstract concept defined by the government - in my example above, its the raw cable). To eliminate tariff completely, assembly and manufacture of the components would both have to take place outside of China.

~C.Vigs


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

^^^^ i like this one the best, it actually makes -some- sense , lol


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## Agent027 (Sep 7, 2015)

I've read a great deal about the topic of getting tooling out of China. And as indicated by a few others, it is a very complicated process with a lot of potential variables, regulations and hurdles.

As a general rule, tooling made in China, stays in China. It is somewhat easier to remove tooling that was made elsewhere and brought to China. It was reported that American Models, a S-gauge company, got their tooling out of China after much aggravation. But it was also said, that tooling had also been originally in the US.

In the case of Lionel, notice the cars that are being produced in the USA: They're all traditional cars that were once manufactured in the USA. The traditional semi scale box car, tank car and flat car. Excluding the LionScale cars, where the tooling purchased from Weaver and those items were located in the US to begin with. The Weaver tooling that was in China, is still in China.

So that means some tooling was brought back to the US from China. Again, items that had already been in the USA. The hopper and the ore car, currently cataloged for the budget 6-packs, had tooling that had also been in the US. So it wouldn't be out of reason that the tooling for those 2 cars could have been just as well moved to Vietnam.

It is also possible that these ore cars are just being decorated and assembled in Vietnam from Chinese made components. But Lionel states the American made traditional cars are being made from US and foreign made parts. The truck sets are obviously made in China. And maybe the brake wheels, sheet metal frames, tank car ladders, platforms and handrails.

There is little doubt in my mind that these budget priced traditional car 6 packs have been marketed due to the challenge from Menards. I'm sure Menards rolling stock has taken a real hit on Lionel's traditional rolling stock sales. Of course, Menards is a home improvement retail chain and not a train manufacturing company like Lionel, whose income comes solely from train sales.

The recent Lionel catalogs speak volumes to this: Notice how little separate sale railroad road name rolling stock is being cataloged under the traditional category compared to only a few years ago, where there was quite a bit cataloged. Most of what is currently cataloged are licensed items which can command a premium price.

So I would imagine Lionel is doing what they can do to step up to that challenge. My personal opinion is the Lionel cars are nicer than the Menards rolling stock. BUT there's a huge difference in price, as many have noted. And as has been written many times, most can live with the compromises in favor of the much lower price.

Anyone who is thinking the train companies could relocate back to the USA is dreaming. And in the case of Lionel, if they did, it would be items that had been previously made in the USA, which would pretty much eliminate the entire Lionel scale product line that has tooling originating in China.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Agent027, terrific summary, thanks for sharing.

Bill


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