# 258 lionel



## watchunglava

looking for a lionel 258 service manual .


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## Big Ed

watchunglava said:


> looking for a lionel 258 service manual .


Good luck!
I looked in one of my service manuals and found nothing for that #.

I will look later in my other as it is down in my dungeon.:laugh:

Maybe the T-Man will dig one up as my quick Google didn't find one either.


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## T-Man

*The 258 is prewar 0*

Go to the Olsen library for a breakdown.


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## watchunglava

*$35?*

that place wants $35 . doesn't someone have that disk? i have a loose wire and cant tell where it it is from. an dont know where it goes


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## watchunglava

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/000374.pdf never mind i found it . thank you t-man


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## T-Man

A lionel service CD might be of use to you. For prewar you can view some catalogs. The 56/57 booklet has alot of info. There is one on ebay for 6 with shipping.


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## watchunglava

*uggggggg*

yea not working. that diagram is some how different or i just don't understand it. tring to solder more wires broke off due to old solder joints. now i dont know where the wires go im confused and this wire is weak and old . i need to rewire the whole thing . but don't know where wires go. it would be nice if that diagram was labeled + and - . it doesn't match up i dont think. 

is anyone on here proficiant in prewar engines?


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## T-Man

*Your kidding Right?*

Does it have the manual reverse?
On that switch is a connection from the center rail. Lets call this hot. The hot, will feed a wire to the motor coil to generate the magnetic field to make it turn. The coil is then grounded to the frame and outer rails. Next two wires will come from the motor commutators. By attaching the the hot to one of these wires and grounding the other determines direction.

Post a picture of the connections and I can draw the wires in.


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## watchunglava

*not kidding*



T-Man said:


> Does it have the manual reverse?
> On that switch is a connection from the center rail. Lets call this hot. The hot, will feed a wire to the motor coil to generate the magnetic field to make it turn. The coil is then grounded to the frame and outer rails. Next two wires will come from the motor commutators. By attaching the the hot to one of these wires and grounding the other determines direction.
> 
> Post a picture of the connections and I can draw the wires in.


ok like for example the wound copper coil seems to have a strand grounded to the chassis too? i cant tell whats going on . the diagram shows two wires going to the brushes, but on my train onl one of them has a lug? i just cant tell. here is a vid, if it isnt clear i will take another one. don't mind my 3 year old singing


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## watchunglava

pretty much now all the wires are broken off they are old and frail. the one from the touch plate , is still intact, that one runs to the light bulb base. its black.


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## T-Man

The correct diagram is at the bottom link. Now CLEAN that engine!!!!!! Please
I removed the big picture it was bugging me.

As I said all the theory is the same. You need two wires from each can/commutator to run to the e unit. Looking at that lever the right where it touches is a connection to the outside rail. This iswhere the unit coil is normally connected to ground out and cycle.
The motor coil is grounded to the frame and I believe attaches to the HOT point 
Two the left of the lever is the HOT The center roller connects here and a wire runs to your light and to the coil. All that is left is the two cans each wire must connect to the e unit so when the drum rotates the direction changes . I do not know if you have neutral it could be two position or three.

I cannot see the e unit clearly. You need more light

I found the olsen diagram it is the same as the 259e


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## Boston&Maine

T-Man said:


> I found the olsen diagram it is the same as the 259e


Yea, the 258 and 259 are pretty much the same... OP, I have a 259E that I can take a couple pictures of if you would like to have something beyond the diagram...


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## watchunglava

*nice*



Boston&Maine said:


> Yea, the 258 and 259 are pretty much the same... OP, I have a 259E that I can take a couple pictures of if you would like to have something beyond the diagram...


that would be amazing!


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## T-Man

This thread has been kicking the life from me. Finally a Savior!.:worshippy:
He needs the eunit connections from the brushes and the coil. Please
Can you find it in your closet?
I can sympathize with your dilemma. I had mine in boxes for as long as 20 years before my table arrived.


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## watchunglava

*accually*



watchunglava said:


> that would be amazing!


that diagram makes alot more sence as it is the one im looking at , i think i got it from here !!!! thanks so much!


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## Boston&Maine

I hope you can wait until tomorrow morning 

I _may_ be able to get to it tonight though :dunno:




T-Man said:


> This thread has been kicking the life from me. Finally a Savior!.:worshippy:
> He needs the eunit connections from the brushes and the coil. Please
> Can you find it in your closet?
> I can sympathize with your dilemma. I had mine in boxes for as long as 20 years before my table arrived.


Good, now I know what to take pictures of


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## watchunglava

*uhhh*

i need to rewire this entire thing , all the wires are old and keep snapping . i have wire though so ill just cut some up and just start from scratch using that diagram.


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## T-Man

The wire has only been around for seventy years.


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## Boston&Maine

Well, there seems to be some slight variations between your 258 and my 259E... You sould be able to take my pictures though and relate it to your setup


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## watchunglava

*hold for pic*

hold for pic, i have that figured out from the diagram pretty good here is where i am having issues , pic to follow have to upload, only one of my brushes has a ring to solder to . can i just solder it right to the can? then ,to coil? where? also there is more bare exposed wire coming off the coil that looks like it needs to be soldered down. 

there i believe was only one wire going to the bulf the enitire time , maybe not, i will post pics


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## watchunglava

*no go*

just rewired the entire thing something has to be wrong because it isn't moving . im done for the night i will take it apart and take pics tommorow . i am getting sparks and it keeps tripping the transformer .


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## T-Man

*One more time*

Nice Pictures B&M you came through!
Up until now we are assuming your e unit works. You can try to bypass it for now. It is very simple. center rail to a can, other can to motor coil. Coil should already be grounded. Reversing can wires to change direction. Those cans may not be original but a replacement. I would just wrap the bare wire around the can with no tab a few times and then solder to the wire.


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## watchunglava

*motor coil*



T-Man said:


> Nice Pictures B&M you came through!
> Up until now we are assuming your e unit works. You can try to bypass it for now. It is very simple. center rail to a can, other can to motor coil. Coil should already be grounded. Reversing can wires to change direction. Those cans may not be original but a replacement. I would just wrap the bare wire around the can with no tab a few times and then solder to the wire.


so the motor coil has two ends to its coil field. one end of mine is broken off, where does that go? does it just get soldered to ground?


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## T-Man

Yes one end goes to the frame. Take a knife and scrap the shelac off before you solder. The other goes to the hot contact on the eunit.


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## watchunglava

T-Man said:


> Yes one end goes to the frame. Take a knife and scrap the shelac off before you solder. The other goes to the hot contact on the eunit.


im going to switch the wires on the coil field and see if thats where i went wrong its the only thing questionable for me . if that doesnt work i will hard wire it like you uggested then try her out and go from there.


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## T-Man

It should make no difference since AC cycles it is in sync with the current in the armature. You can try. The inner wire should be ground. That is what I have on other motors.


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## watchunglava

didn't work ??


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## T-Man

Did you bypass the e unit?


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## watchunglava

*yes*

ran the wire from the pickup to the top can then to the coil field from both the bottom can and top can and both sides of the coil field from both can set ups . no go. but if i touched the chassis with the hot wire it sparked while sitting on the track with power to it.


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## T-Man

*Motor 101*

HMMM. I can't see anything and need to comfirm one test at a time. You have more wires or did more than one test.

Playing with the coil wires is not good they break. The coils inner wire should be attached to the frame. The other is foe connections. We nees to keep this simple.

Your brushes are in the cans and the springs are good?

At this point the coil , brushes , or armature is bad.


If you have more than one wire on a can it will not work. You short out with your spark. The can wires to the e unit must be disconnected.

Remember the bone song. ankle bone connected to the leg bone. I am not pulling you leg. Three legs. That is it. Center roller to one can. Current spins to other can. Other can to coil,. Coil to ground. Try that. Only two wires plus the coil.

The center rail wire should be off the e unit. This defeats the whole purpose since I suspect there is a short here. Remove it from the engine.

Ready to track test. Stop if it runs.

THEN if it goes backwards You only switch the can connections. Then the motor will go forward.


The current goes from the track through the spinning armature then through the coil to produce the magnetic field. 


From what you told me you have thecoil connected to both cans. 
This shorts the current so it will not spin.


Second test method
Hold the motor
You can do this with three bannana clip wires. Disconnect can wires
One banana cable, Center rail to can. 
Two banana secondcable, can to coil. Assume other coil is attached to frame
three banana cable, frame to outer rail.

I cannot make it simpler. If it fails show a vid or a picture of the brushplate side. No movement please. A good 5 to 10 seconds.
If everything fails I suspect the brusplate may not fit.


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## watchunglava

*multi meter*

i have a multimeter, is there a wayi could just test where there is an issue by using it? what setting should i set it to a/c right?


T-Man said:


> HMMM. I can't see anything and need to comfirm one test at a time. You have more wires or did more than one test.
> 
> Playing with the coil wires is not good they break. The coils inner wire should be attached to the frame. The other is foe connections. We nees to keep this simple.
> 
> Your brushes are in the cans and the springs are good?
> 
> At this point the coil , brushes , or armature is bad.
> 
> 
> If you have more than one wire on a can it will not work. You short out with your spark. The can wires to the e unit must be disconnected.
> 
> Remember the bone song. ankle bone connected to the leg bone. I am not pulling you leg. Three legs. That is it. Center roller to one can. Current spins to other can. Other can to coil,. Coil to ground. Try that. Only two wires plus the coil.
> 
> The center rail wire should be off the e unit. This defeats the whole purpose since I suspect there is a short here. Remove it from the engine.
> 
> Ready to track test. Stop if it runs.
> 
> THEN if it goes backwards You only switch the can connections. Then the motor will go forward.
> 
> 
> The current goes from the track through the spinning armature then through the coil to produce the magnetic field.
> 
> 
> From what you told me you have thecoil connected to both cans.
> This shorts the current so it will not spin.
> 
> 
> Second test method
> Hold the motor
> You can do this with three bannana clip wires. Disconnect can wires
> One banana cable, Center rail to can.
> Two banana secondcable, can to coil. Assume other coil is attached to frame
> three banana cable, frame to outer rail.
> 
> I cannot make it simpler. If it fails show a vid or a picture of the brushplate side. No movement please. A good 5 to 10 seconds.
> If everything fails I suspect the brusplate may not fit.


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## watchunglava

*binding*

the wheels arent spining freely i have realized . they do , then they lock up, it seems that it is the armature that is binding?


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## T-Man

If the hole is too large on the brushplate it will bind up. As I said it may not be the original part. That piece should fit snug. The wheel should spin freely.
Good observation. A decent picture would tell me more. Maybe push the armature shaft in one direction with a tooth pick to see if you can get it to spin. Are the gears OK?


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## T-Man

*Multi meter*

Set to ohms or the greek letter omega. Resistance is 20m disconnected and zero connnected. The three plates on the armature are connected.But the shaft is a ground and should be 20m. A bad arnature will jiggle back and forth on the bad winding. Does the armature come off? Some do with out removing the wheel.


Your frame is ground start from the center rollers to see if you have a short using the meter. Touch each end of the connections I have described. They should be close to zero. Then touch the frame with one end of the tester.
You can use a battery and a bulb too.


The armature is a SLS 254-10. It is the same shown on B&M's picture. Do you have the brass spacers? If you do is the armature long enough to reach the plate? How much is sticking out?

Since you never have had it running with that plate you may have to order a repro part.
Keep it up.


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## T-Man

*Why it is not Working*

Well I figured it out That brushplate is sitting too high to work. The brass spacers are the key. The brushes are not made long enough. So they angle and jamb the armature. Plus your spring tension must be weak to cover that distance.That can plate is made to sit on the frame. TA DA











To fix you need the right part or fill in the space . Circuit board will work. Two layers maybe.The brush holes need to line up exactly. Then you need a stronger spring too.
Let us know what you do.


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## watchunglava

i removed the brushes and plate to get a better view , it still siezes up without them on . spin the apature one way spins fine until it doesn't. comes to a dead stop. can't spin in same direction, you can reverse it spins fine , then locks up . 

is this engine pretty much fubar'd?


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## Big Ed

watchunglava said:


> i removed the brushes and plate to get a better view , it still siezes up without them on . spin the apature one way spins fine until it doesn't. comes to a dead stop. can't spin in same direction, you can reverse it spins fine , then locks up .
> 
> is this engine pretty much fubar'd?


Did you check the gears?


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## watchunglava

*that one?*



big ed said:


> Did you check the gears?


you mean the visable metal gears ? there is one gear that slides through the apatchure. a larger one below it that connects to the wheels . all the gears have all their teeth . is that what i should be checking? the apatchure has some play in it .


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## Boston&Maine

watchunglava said:


> you mean the visable metal gears ? there is one gear that slides through the apatchure. a larger one below it that connects to the wheels . all the gears have all their teeth . is that what i should be checking? the apatchure has some play in it .



Completely pull the armature out of the engine and try spinning the wheels... I am pretty sure that without it in the axles will move independently of each other... If either binds, then you have a gear problem or bushing problem on whichever axle binds...

If nothing bad happens, put the armature back in and put the brush plate back on without the brushes or springs in it... Now try spinning the wheels again... If the bind then the play you say that you have with the armature is your problem...

If nothing bad happens, put the brushes and springs back in... Try spinning the wheels, and if they bind then the brushes are digging into the armature...


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## watchunglava

*ok*



Boston&Maine said:


> Completely pull the armature out of the engine and try spinning the wheels... I am pretty sure that without it in the axles will move independently of each other... If either binds, then you have a gear problem or bushing problem on whichever axle binds...
> 
> If nothing bad happens, put the armature back in and put the brush plate back on without the brushes or springs in it... Now try spinning the wheels again... If the bind then the play you say that you have with the armature is your problem...
> 
> If nothing bad happens, put the brushes and springs back in... Try spinning the wheels, and if they bind then the brushes are digging into the armature...


im going to have to get a wheel puller then because thats the only way to get the armature out. 

is it possible to get a replacement armature if that is the issue? or will i have to get another parts train?


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## Boston&Maine

That is a horrible design... I found pictures of a 258 motor on ebay so others can see what it looks like... When you say you have play in the armature, do you mean that you can move the small gear seen in the first picture up and down? How much play is there exactly?


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## watchunglava

*play*

it doesn't move up and down but moves in and out , maybe 1-1.5 mm it stays on the gear.


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## Boston&Maine

IDK, I am out of ideas... At this point I would need to actually hold the engine in my hands to see what may be going on


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## T-Man

Do you ever travel south? Drop it off at the York village train shop owned by Mike Shipp. He has done trainshows all over Maine. I'll look at your engine to pronounce it dead if it is.
How's that?

B&M why is your brushplate different from the 258? When Olsen has the part numbers listed as the same. Yours. looks what I have in the 249e.


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## watchunglava

*won the battle!!!! not the war!*

success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the wheels and gears and everthing now once again move fine!!!! 

there was a tiny drip of solder in one of the gear grooves and that was the culprit!

now back to wiring! and figuring out how to get this baby rolling. this is awesome you guys are a big help. i don't know anyone into trains .


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## watchunglava

*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

even more success. i wired it up to bypass the unit. but wired it up with only one can, lead to top can to coil, other side of coil to ground. she works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 

so now i have to go back and see whats up with the e unit . she may work as well, we will see. thanks guys your helping me so much!


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## T-Man

That's great! 
So the weird brushplates grounds and the coil grounds separately. That is different. Jusy goes to prove these engines are dependable and last a long time.

Check for train shows in you area. Portland has one I can't find the date.


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## Reckers

Nice catch, Watchunglava! I had a similar experience Christmas with an expensive Christmas Village thing I bought my gf. It was an enclosed candy shop with two moving belts---one belt made about 1/4 of a rotation and quit. I had it apart, expecting bad wiring, and found a chip of dried hot-glue in the gears. Works like a charm, now. Congratulations!


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## Boston&Maine

T-Man said:


> B&M why is your brushplate different from the 258? When Olsen has the part numbers listed as the same. Yours. looks what I have in the 249e.


IDK, but it looks like all of the other 259E engines I have happened to see on eBay... I can pull the armature out too in contrast to the 258 :sly:


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## watchunglava

*so then?*

any ideas on how to wire up the eunit? do i just do everything except the second can?


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## T-Man

The brush plate was a surprise. I don't like surprises. I have often said that I learn form my assisting others. As of now I doubt my technical reference. The259E diagram shows two wires. I need to know how it works with one wired can. I am not sure how your eunit works??? Without clear pictures you are on your own. Unless I find additional information. I can ask Mike if he has some prewar information.


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## watchunglava

*t man!*



T-Man said:


> The brush plate was a surprise. I don't like surprises. I have often said that I learn form my assisting others. As of now I doubt my technical reference. The259E diagram shows two wires. I need to know how it works with one wired can. I am not sure how your eunit works??? Without clear pictures you are on your own. Unless I find additional information. I can ask Mike if he has some prewar information.


i thought you were t man !!!!! world wide trouble shooter hwell: . honestly i think it's pretty cool that my old lionel has stumped the experts. but on the other hand now im on my own! lol uhhhggggg 

what do you need clear pictures of ? the e unit? i can take pictures and post . how do e units work? obviously the switch completes a circuit. but how to know what the other holes do or are? a picture would help?


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## watchunglava

*1684*

it seems as though the 258 motor is not the same as the 259e.

but is the same as the 1684! does anyone have a diagram for the 1684?


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## watchunglava

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/b123/000541.pdf

found it!!!!!!!!!!

wow this is amazing! now to go to work


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## watchunglava

*she lives!!!!!!!!!*

she works 100%!!!!!!!!!! all freshly wired up everything works perfect . i am all done. now just to find a replacement bulb!


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## watchunglava

*restored!*

circa 1930ish 027 258


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## T-Man

I went back and looked but it is obviously you had better luck. The diagram tells me alot. I do learn a lot from doing this. I am sure it feels good to get it running. Congrats ! Even super heroes eat humble pie.
14 volt bulbs are at Radio Shack screw or bayonet base.My comeback.

The diagram has the motor coil, switch places with the brushes. The brushes go to ground but the coil is reversed by the eunit. I have not seen this done. Yours is the first 258 I have seen. It looks great.


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## tjcruiser

Gents,

I'm just reading this thread in detail for the first time. Congrats to all for good detective work to get the "beast" going again.

Speaking of which, my "dark side" got the best of me, and I just won an old 259E CLUNKER (!!!) on ebay. It'll need some open heart surgery, liposuction, and colligen treatments before it looks like anything reasonable. So, before I dive in, I'm doing a little reading.

T-Man, if I understand the latter part of this thread correctly, the 258E motor (but perhaps not the 259E motor???) are somewhat unique in how the e-unit is wired ... the e-unit flips the current through the FIELD, while the current through the armature always runs in the same direction. Hence, the ground on one of the brush cans. Do I have that right???

You'll be hearing more from me on this as the patient soon arrives in pre-op!

Thanks,

TJ


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## T-Man

Just like a Marx.
I remember this, I thought his description was lacking.


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## tjcruiser

Hi guys,

I'm dusting off and opening this old thread. I've just ebay picked up a prewar 258 like the one shown here, though in old-dog / cat-lady condition. I'm re-reading the comments above, and amazed at how much I've learned about these old motors and locos over the past months, with a big thumbs-up thanks to T-Man, B&M, Big Ed, Servoguy, Stillakid, etc.

A couple of quick bullet-points for anyone poking in here, then I'll likely flip over to a new project-thread for my 258 ...

1. There are actually two completely different prewar Lionel locos tagged with 258. The first (not this type shown here) is a 2-4-0 tricked out with lots of brass and nickel trim. The second type (like this one) is basically a poor-man's version of the Lionel 259, though with simpler trim, driverods, domes, no sandpipes, etc. That said, 258 and the 259 do share the same shell components. This version of the 258 began production in 1941, whereas the 259's started in 1932.

(Comments below are for the second-style of 258 ...)

2. The 258 has a small Lionel Junior type motor (close to those on 1664's, 1681's, some early 1688's), along with much smaller drive wheels than those on the 259's.

3. I believe the 258 motors all had the "notched" motor cheeks in way of the field winding, like the one I discussed on this thread:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5296

4. One tidbit I've just learned in comparing the 258 motor to the 1681 motor ... very similar, except that the e-unit of the 258 has its lever mounted on the rear face, wherease the e-unit on the 1681 has its lever mounted on the front face. The e-units are not interchangeable, per the swept-back lower half orientation of the e-unit housing.

I'll leave it at that, for now, but will likely delve into this more as I disect my 258 a bit ...

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed

watchunglava said:


> success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> the wheels and gears and everthing now once again move fine!!!!
> 
> there was a tiny drip of solder in one of the gear grooves and that was the culprit!
> 
> now back to wiring! and figuring out how to get this baby rolling. this is awesome you guys are a big help. i don't know anyone into trains .



Thats why I told you to check the gears, though you asked me what to check for and I never replied back.

I don't know why I didn't.


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm dusting off and opening this old thread. I've just ebay picked up a prewar 258 like the one shown here, though in old-dog / cat-lady condition. I'm re-reading the comments above, and amazed at how much I've learned about these old motors and locos over the past months, with a big thumbs-up thanks to T-Man, B&M, Big Ed, Servoguy, Stillakid, etc.
> 
> A couple of quick bullet-points for anyone poking in here, then I'll likely flip over to a new project-thread for my 258 ...
> 
> 1. There are actually two completely different prewar Lionel locos tagged with 258. The first (not this type shown here) is a 2-4-0 tricked out with lots of brass and nickel trim. The second type (like this one) is basically a poor-man's version of the Lionel 259, though with simpler trim, driverods, domes, no sandpipes, etc. That said, 258 and the 259 do share the same shell components. This version of the 258 began production in 1941, whereas the 259's started in 1932.
> 
> (Comments below are for the second-style of 258 ...)
> 
> 2. The 258 has a small Lionel Junior type motor (close to those on 1664's, 1681's, some early 1688's), along with much smaller drive wheels than those on the 259's.
> 
> 3. I believe the 258 motors all had the "notched" motor cheeks in way of the field winding, like the one I discussed on this thread:
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5296
> 
> 4. One tidbit I've just learned in comparing the 258 motor to the 1681 motor ... very similar, except that the e-unit of the 258 has its lever mounted on the rear face, wherease the e-unit on the 1681 has its lever mounted on the front face. The e-units are not interchangeable, per the swept-back lower half orientation of the e-unit housing.
> 
> I'll leave it at that, for now, but will likely delve into this more as I disect my 258 a bit ...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ



All right.....another dissection.:thumbsup:
What color will it end up?


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## tjcruiser

Maybe T-Man blue! (Though if he asks for royalty payments, I might be a bit steamed!)

TJ


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## jbourn52

*258 need help*

Hi I am new to this forum. I recently acquired 258 engine and tender and it was not working, I disassembled it to clean it all up. I removed the brush plate and cleaned the contacts and the brushes with electronic cleaner, They where covered with black dust and dirt. If i connect one wire to the chassis and the other to the middle rail shoe, the light lights and i get a clicking. If I disconnect the switch the light stays on but nothing else happens. The wheels spin free. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks in advance Justin


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## T-Man

Do you have the 258 in the picture? Or is it newer with a black plastic body?


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## jbourn52

Yes it is the one pictured, Heavy die cast!


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## tjcruiser

JBourn,

A little lingo ...

That's tinplate (pressed sheet metal), with cast weights in the front and back. Not "die cast", which is a much thicker/heavier cast shell.

TJ


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## jbourn52

Sorry my bad, like I said new to this.


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## Big Ed

jbourn52 said:


> Sorry my bad, like I said new to this.



Don't mind TJ, he counts rivets instead of sheep before he goes to sleep.:laugh:


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## T-Man

I always thought he used a dremel polishiing wheel. Have it run all night on one piece and have it shiny by morning! The glare would wake him up!


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## tjcruiser

JBourn --

Lots of things to learn in this game. I think that's why I enjoy the hobby so much ... I learn something new here every day by peeking over the shoulder of other people's projects. So, peek and ask away ... lots of guys onboard who'll guide us all straight!

Oh, and Ed -- getting to sleep is the easy part ... I just think of all of the wonderful things there are to do in New Jersey, and before you know it, I'm fast asleep! 

Cheers,

TJ


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## jbourn52

Is my prewar 258 AC or DC, Could that be my issue i am using a 1034 75 watt transformer. Thanks Justin


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm sure it's A/C.


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## tjcruiser

Ditto. AC.


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> JBourn --
> 
> Lots of things to learn in this game. I think that's why I enjoy the hobby so much ... I learn something new here every day by peeking over the shoulder of other people's projects. So, peek and ask away ... lots of guys onboard who'll guide us all straight!
> 
> Oh, and Ed -- getting to sleep is the easy part ... I just think of all of the wonderful things there are to do in New Jersey, and before you know it, I'm fast asleep!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ





tjcruiser said:


> Ditto. AC.



AC?

Yes Atlantic City...Only in New Jersey.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser

jbourn52 said:


> Hi I am new to this forum. I recently acquired 258 engine and tender and it was not working, I disassembled it to clean it all up. I removed the brush plate and cleaned the contacts and the brushes with electronic cleaner, They where covered with black dust and dirt. If i connect one wire to the chassis and the other to the middle rail shoe, the light lights and i get a clicking. If I disconnect the switch the light stays on but nothing else happens. The wheels spin free. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks in advance Justin


Justin,

A couple of things come to mind.

1. E-unit. The switch disengages the e-unit, and leave the loco in whatever direction setting was last there. However, the cycle of settings in fwd-neutral-reverse-neutral. So, if you happen to disengage the switch when the motor is in a neutral setting, it won't run (though the light will still light). So, flip the switch the other way, to try to get the e-unit toggling to fwd / reverse.

2. But that may be a problem if the e-units solenoid (electromagnet plunger) is not moving up and down freely. You should see it jump up when power is applied to the loco, and then fall down (via gravity) when power is turned off. And, each time this happens, a little pawl at the bottom of the plunger should turn a tooth on the e-units drum, such that the drum rotates 1/8 turn (I think). Look at the little contact fingers near the drum (4 on top, 2 on bottom). They should all be clean and touching the copper portion of the drum surface, as it rotates. The finger are re-routing current through the motor's field coil to flip loco direction. Make sure the fingers aren't bent away from the drum.

3. The 258 has a Lionel Junior based motor. I've fiddled with a few of these. And, in the process, I've noticed what I consider to be a major design flaw. The center-rail contact assembly on the loco (the black fiber plate on the bottom) has a wire soldered to its top that routes power to the motor. The solder joint itself is only a tiny fraction of an inch beneath the motor's field plates. If the fiber contact plate gets pushed in (up) at all, or warps a bit, the solder joint can easily get pushed into the field plate, which would essentially short out the motor so it wouldn't run. Look for this solder joint, and see if you can see daylight between it and the field plates.

Cheers,

TJ


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## jbourn52

Thanks TJ,

What a wealth of useful info!!! Thanks very much.
This is what I found upon further diagnostics. One of the copper end-caps for the "Drum" with the teeth was lodged between the axle and the pick-up rail! Will i be able to reassemble the "drum" and slide it back together. or will it need to be replaced? Thanks Justin


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## gunrunnerjohn

jbourn52 said:


> Will i be able to reassemble the "drum" and slide it back together. or will it need to be replaced?


See other threads about reassembling E-Units. You need 27 fingers, but it's possible.


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## tjcruiser

Justin,

Your drum is toast ... literally. It'll have to be replaced. You can get replacements from several online parts dealers. I use Jeff Kane at the Train Tender ... very honest guy.

Before you order, look closely at the two sets of contact fingers and their little fiber mounts. If those are charred or bent at all, the time to replace those is when you open up the e-unit cheeks to replace the drum.

Speaking of which, opening up the e-unit cheeks isn't too hard ... you simply "push" the cheeks open by spreading apart the ends of a needle nose pliers. However, putting all of the pieces back in (the drum, the two contact fiber plates, lining up the fingers with all of their wires soldered, etc.) is a bit of a Chinese finger torture puzzle. Doable, but tricky.

Think about your comfort level to try something like this. Patience will pay off, but it may be that you'd rather have someone else rebuild the e-unit for you.

Regards,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I didn't look at the pictures!  I have to go with TJ on this, that one is clearly dead.


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## jbourn52

Should i replace the whole e-unit or just do the drum first. Can it be more than the drum and contacts???? I understand you guys are not fortune tellers but would that be my best route to go????


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## jbourn52

Do you guys know of any dealers/ vendors in or around Chicago area that may stock these parts would love to get this old train chugging around the tree this year!!!!


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## tjcruiser

jbourn52 said:


> Should i replace the whole e-unit or just do the drum first. Can it be more than the drum and contacts????


You should run power to the e-unit solenoid itself, and see if it (the plunger) goes up and down freely with power on/off cycles. Make sure you're holding it vertically (upright) when you try this ... gravity is needed to bring the plunger down.

If that checks out OK, and if all of the metal "cheek" parts of the e-unit look OK, then it's possible to simply replace the drum ... and perhaps the contact fingers in the process. You'll need some skill at neatly soldering small wires, and you'll need some patience to get all the bits back into the cheeks. But if you do all that, the e-unit should run just fine.

I don't know the Chicago area ...

Online (or via phone), I'd recommend Jeff Kane ... www.ttender.com

Good luck,

TJ


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## jbourn52

Thanks TJ, 

It appears to lift approx 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch when power is applied. I think i will try just the drum and see where I get.

Are all the drums the same I flipped around on ttender.com and only found 1 drum. I also viewed the posts regarding drum replacement. 259e-1 is this correct. Thanks again Justin


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## tjcruiser

I'm pretty sure that Lionel drums for their conventional e-units are all the same.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, there are two position and three position E-Units, are those drums really the same?


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## tjcruiser

No, no ...

Sorry about that ... I meant most of the conventional 3-position e-units. There was a very eary prewar pendulum type that is different, I think. And I know that some postwar models (like my Scout 249) have a 2-position e-unit which uses a little side-to-side toggle mechanism instead of the conventional drum.

Hope I didn't confuse things ...

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Probably not, just trying to make sure the poor guy doesn't get the wrong part.


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## jbourn52

Thanks guys I am not discouraged any more! Put a post on craigslist looking for a drum, 3 responses this morning and 2 people told me where to find one locally. Picked it up for 5.00 along with some parts to fix my 3472 milk car. 

Drum installed very easy, only took the e-unit far enough apart to get the 2 conact plate out slide the drum and contact back together, used vise grips to press the eunit back togetheter. only to find i broke the brush wire of of the contact. after a quick solder fix. The engine runs which is awesome. However it will only run on the track for a couple of feet then stops. 

If i hold it up and wire lead from the transformer to the chasis and liht buld it will run for a minute or two then stop. it will not run in reverse only maybe half s turm then stops. 

I am going to make a jig to hold the engine so i can bench run it for a while. i am hopeing if i do that several times it will perform better. 

Thanks to all for the excellent input and advise!!!!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Did you clean up the brushes and commutator? That's where I'd start looking.


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## tjcruiser

It could be that one of the e-unit contact fingers is bent oddly to the point where sometimes its touching the copper on the drum, and sometimes (due to vibration), it's not. I'd have a look at the fingers to see if anything jumps out.

(Glad to hear the new drum popped in so easily!)

Cheers,

TJ


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## jbourn52

John, I had the brushes out and cleaned them real good along with the commutator. I have it running on the track goes decent until it hits the 45 deg crossing then stops. reverse is working occasionally on the bench not on the track!
TJ, contacts all appear to be the same!


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## gunrunnerjohn

That sounds like one of the pickups are not making good contact. If that happens, when one lifts, and the other one isn't making contact, the E-unit will shift to the next step, neutral.


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## tjcruiser

Jbourn,

Believe it or not, I have a 258 motor on my bench, too. And, I'm having a similar "goes a bit then stops" and "only sometimes in reverse" problem.

No answers yet on my end ... scratching my head a bit, but need to find some time to delve into debugging a bit more.

I'll swap clues if you do, too!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

After you sort those out, both of you can work on my Scout motor issue with the E-Unit advancing.


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## jbourn52

John that sounds exactly the what the problem is........The question is how to correct it? Both pick-up appear to have the same amout of spring. they are both wore a little too!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, it depends on the type of pickup. You might check and see if there is poor continuity somewhere between the pickup and the motor connection. Is this the standard roller arrangement with the springs, or a sliding one with little copper donuts like the Scout engines?

As far as the pickups, I clean them thoroughly with ScotchBrite.


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## jbourn52

Well TJ sound like we have our hands full. If i do figure anything out i will post it here! 
JB


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## jbourn52

This is the best I could come up with right now John!
<img src="







"


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## tjcruiser

Jbourn,

If your problem is anything like mine (same motor design, and essentially the same symptoms), my initial detective work points me towards the fingers on the e-unit drum. I think they might not be engaging the copper portion of the drum properly, or perhaps redundantly having too many fingers touch the copper drum at one time, essentially imposing a short.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

TJ may well be correct, but I'd polish those rail contacts, and also make SURE that the connection to them is secure. I think that's a single piece of metal with a wire soldered to it inside the engine.


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## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think that's a single piece of metal with a wire soldered to it inside the engine.


Basically ... a wire runs from the top (inside) of the contact plate up to the headlight, and from there splits over to the e-unit.

The problem with these Lionel Jr style motors is the the solder-joint on the wire (in way of the inside of the contact plate) is a micromillemeter away from the motor's field plates. With any bend or flex in the fiber contact plate (the one with the Lionel badge in the photo above), there's a high risk of having the solder-joint bump into the field plates, essentially shorting out the motor.

For anyone fiddling with one of these motors, watch out for this.

Ohh ... also ... the center rail contacts themselves are held in place (and easily removed) via a springy copper plate on the inside (top) of the fiber plate. The power lead wire is soldered to this copper plate.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

That could cause the fits and starts!


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## tjcruiser

Maybe ... as I said, I'm sitting here with the same 258 motor problems on my end, and still scratching my head a bit ... wish I could say anything with confidence ... still fuzzy debugging guesswork on my end ...

For what it's worth (to Jbourn, I guess), I think my next step will be to jump around (bypass) the e-unit with power simply routed throught the field and armature. I'm wondering if the problems will go away here ... if they do, that points me back towards the e-unit as the likely buggy source.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Say it with confidence, doesn't mean you have to be right!


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## tjcruiser

OK then, how's this ...

"I'm always right. I'm never wrong. I thought I was wrong, once ... but I was mistaken!"



TJ


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## T-Man

If you are looking for a place to clean, I suggest you look at the sliders. They are clipped in. The copper bar needs to be clean where it makes contact. Normally use and movement keep the connection good but it has had a long rest so see if you can shine it up.

When troubleshooting you always need to make sure the motor works without the e unit. Reverse is nice but you don't need it.


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## servoguy

TJ,
Does the E unit cycle OK? If it is cycling OK, then it is likely that the contacts are a little dirty or corroded. WD-40 is a very good contact cleaner. I speak from 44 years of experience with analog computers. Spray a little on the drum and cycle the unit several time to see if it works any better. 

The sliding shoes can also be a problem. I put some new ones on a loco, and it didn't run worth a flip until the shoes had a little wear on them. It may have been that the brass strip that holds the shoes was dirty or corroded, and that some use fixed the problem. 

BB


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## jbourn52

I found the e-unit switch a little loose i tweaked it a little and it is tight now!! earlier today the motor would not run for more than 30 seconds at 1/4 throttle approx 5.5 volts, now it ran for 15 minutes straight then would surge up and down.... does anyone know the name of the part guide, white paperback about 5*8 about 1.5 inches thick? saw a guy at the hobby shop with one but then he disappeared wasn't able to ask him!


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## jbourn52

TJ have you replaced the brushes and or all wires to and from contacts and coil?


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## tjcruiser

Bruce -- Good question. I believe that the e-unit plunger is cycling with every powerdown, but the resulting modes of operation are intermitent. I haven't (yet) run through a full "8-count" pass around the drum dial to see if there's a repeated pattern of what positions do and don't work. That might point to a finger/drum issue.

If I can't find anything there quickly, I want to jump around the e-unit and run directly through the field/armature to see if that setup does or doesn't repeat the stalling.

I did clean the motor very thouroughly, and think (i hope) that I have good continuity between the shoes, the copper spring plate, etc.

JBourn -- you must be talking about the Greenberg's service manual book:

http://www.amazon.com/Greenbergs-Re...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292995032&sr=1-2

Yes, I did do a full rewire, with the exception of the one wire running from the copper spring plate up to the light socket. I did not replace the brushes/springs, but I did clean them well, and they look to be in good shape with little wear.

It may be that I have some intermittent short in my new wiring. I need to check further.

Thanks guys!!!

TJ


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## servoguy

Make sure your solder joints are good. You probably have an intermittent open rather than a short. Shorts will make smoke.

BB


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## tjcruiser

(I'm saying this from fuzzy memory, but ...)

When the car is stalled, I think the e-unit plunger is still powered up. That tells me that at least that part of the circuit is completing its loop, right?

TJ


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## servoguy

Yes, the E unit coil is powered directly from the pickup and doesn't depend on the motor to be working. The E unit coil and the motor are wired in parallel. That is why you can move the lever to turn the E unit off and the motor will still run. I definitely would check the E unit for dirty contacts. If they are greasy, WD-40 will remove the grease. If they are corroded, WD-40 will loosen the corrosion. Also check to make sure all the fingers are making good contact. If they don't, the high resistance contact will get hot and cause the finger to bend away from the drum and the drum may be damaged. I suggest you don't run the loco until you figure out what is wrong. Since you cleaned the commutator and brushes, it is most likely you have a problem in the E unit. You should be able to run the motor with the shell removed so you can see if the E unit is cycling OK.
BB


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## tjcruiser

Guys,

My 258 motor is back up and running. I tracked the intermittent running (or stalling) down to tiny alignment issues with the contact fingers in the e-unit. But to diagnose that, here's what I first did (rightly or wrongly) ...

1. I slipped tiny pieces of paper underneath the fingers of the e-unit to temporarily stop electrical contact there, and ran some jumper leads to route power directly to and through the motor's field coil and then the armature. Essentially, fully bypass around the e-unit. The motor ran fine in forward.

2. Then, I flipped the field jumper leads around, and the motor ran fine in reverse.

So far, so good ... pickups, field, brushes, armature all working OK.

3. That told me that the intermittent operation problems stemmed from something in the e-unit.

4. With the motor now wired "back to normal" (jumpers and insulator paper strips removed), I cycled power on/off to see if the e-unit was showing some sort of a repeated pattern in its symptoms. Turns out, it was. The e-unit drum had 8 positions in its full-turn cycle: fwd-neutral-rev-neutral-fwd-neutral-rev-neutral. As I powered up/down "around the dial", the loco was consistently innoperative on the 2nd intended reverse position. I put a little black Sharpie dot on the copper of the e-unit drum so that I could watch and located exactly where the drum was in its cycle as I ran through power up/down cycles.

5. With those clues in hand, I could see that the contact fingers were not making full contact with the drum in that one intended reverse position, and sometimes touching the drum in the wrong spot in one of the neutral positions. Bad finger alignment.

6. So, pop the e-unit open again, rebend all of the contact fingers into better alignment, reassemble (went faster this time), and bingo ... it's now cycling OK, and the motor's running nicely.

I just love stories with happy endings ...


TJ


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## servoguy

TJ,
Make sure that the fingers have good contact pressure. If the contact pressure is not sufficient, there will be high resistance which can heat the finger and drum. I have had this happen once, and I just bent the fingers back into place, squeezed the drum back into shape with pliers, and the loco is still running. Make sure all the contacts are clean, also. 

BB


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## gunrunnerjohn

A set of relay contact tools is valuable for these old trains. I have a set from when I was a kid and fixed pinball machines for a summer job.


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## tjcruiser

Bruce, John,

Thanks. One finger wasn't pushing down enough, and one was bent oddly such that it touched two different parts of the drum copper at the same time. All fixed and all good now. Contacts and drum squeaky clean. I lubed the motor (using 5W-30, Bruce ... thanks for tips ... I didn't have 5W-20 on hand, but I'm hoping the 30 is pretty close), and it's running like a rocket around the track. Relatively quiet, too.

Except now, the rehabbed motor is looking at its tired, dented, rusted 258 shell hopting that I'll begin to give that some t.l.c., too!

Cheers,

TJ


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## servoguy

TJ,
Sometimes I wonder how fingers get bent on E relays. It has to be someone damaging it by improper handling. I have several prewar locos, and the E relays work just fine. I have never done anything to them except maybe a little WD-40. I have a lot of post war locos too, and the only one that has been a problem is a 2046. Who knows why?
Merry Christmas
BB


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## tjcruiser

Bruce,

I have two theories: (a) Gremlins, and (b) me and my clumsy fingers while I was solderng all of the new wires into place.

I'm going with (a) ... yeah, that's gotta be it!

A most sincery Merry Christmas to you and one and all at the MTF!

TJ


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## jbourn52

TJ I am optimistic beacuse of your findings! However I have not had the time to pull mine apart again. So against my better judgement I went to menards this morning and bought there lionel lines kit. Comes with some fastrack. A transformer I think a small 40 watt. A couple of road signs. A few cars and an engine and tender for a whopping 100 bucks after mail in rebate! Hopefully after the holidays I will get back to the resting 258! Merry Christmas to everyone!


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