# planning for next layout



## michelle

I know this might be a little early to start, but the more time spent designing the less time rebuilding. 

I found anyrail software but can not change file type to post pictures of the track plan. Does anyone know how to or a program that could post track plans with?
I want to do this layout in sections set up for the industies like a modular layout. Set for operations on a point to point with a hiden track connecting the two points. I did dogbones, loops, figure eights mostly from the atlas track plans book. It is easy to copy something but to do the designing is little challenging.

Size of layout double level maybe three levels if possible.
in room one 16'x2' with a 3'x3' attachment in one corner for helix.
in room two 10'x2' with a 3'x3' corner for second helix.
rooms connected through wall.

single main line for freight 
double main line for passengers

time period: 1940-1970's
type of cars : passenger, covered hoppers, cattle, tank, box

I want to scratch build buildings for all the types of cars. I started on a passenger station and have plans for at least 2 more. Once I get the buildings finished I will post pictures of them, and once I get the building built for the section of the layout I will start building that. The first section needs stations, factory, and house. Should I post progress pictures or wait until finished? I am not sure of the attachments if there is a limit to the number.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You can print to a graphics file with AnyRail. Select the *File *menu, then _*Export as*_.


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## tjcruiser

By all means, please post pics of any progress you make! We love to see work in action!

TJ


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## michelle

thank you gunrunnerjohn that saves me from having to learn a new program.

Here are some pictures not much done 

I always take pictures of every step in case I want to make another, or hopefully my children might get back into trains after their teenage years are over with. I also got the track plan for this module.

I added a yard idea not set in stone yet.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You can also insert those photos inline very easily, just open the advanced Reply and click on the







(Paperclip) on the top and select *Insert All*, I've done that for you this time.


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## michelle

thanks again for the help and information. 

I did a quick over view of the whole layout bottom level had to cut it in half to fit on the page. Just to give you all an idea of the size I have to work with. I like doing the designing and the work in small sections. It will take years to get everything done. I do have 2 sons and 2 daughters plus a husband to help with some of the work. 

I added a side from an idea from another post I read for the yard. My husband said it was possible to add the 1'x3' area. We will see when it comes time for him to build the benchwork.


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## michelle

*5/22/13 progress*

An update on the station
















I just realized that since this is a shelf layout and the back would not be seen I could have saved time and materials by not putting the windows and doors in on the back of the building. I will paint this tomorrow then Friday I start on the platform part of the station.


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## wingnut163

its nice to see the other half interested in RR. you do some fine scratch building. yes you could have left out the windows but some day that station may be moved to a spot were the back can be seen. i say do it all. my 2 cents

and welcome.


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## michelle

thank you. 

I got the walls and windows painted all ready well first coat on walls. I am going to start drawing the template for the post for the platform. 

























I know it seems like I have a lot of time to work on the layout, well I do. The store I worked at closed down a couple of months ago and instead of watching TV I decided to work on a layout. Hope you don't mind daily updates.


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## gunrunnerjohn

We don't mind the updates at all, that's what the forum is all about! :thumbsup: Update away as often as you like.


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## michelle

I been playing around with an interchange yard design. The area will be on different modules so I color coded the different sections.









I finished the suports for the station's platform roof. 

the template used to cut the angles








last six post glued to my work board








three post I did last night glued to the roof


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## michelle

I just about spent the time that I would have been in work building a station. Too bad I can not turn this into a job would be fun to go to work then. One more roof to go, but I might put some shades in before the roof goes on. Time to take a break and get some house work done. Might be finished tomorrow. 









I had to the first train into the station without a locomotive but still.








Sky view of the station, 








from the station side


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## gunrunnerjohn

It's really coming along nicely. :thumbsup:

It'll be a shame when you land a job, you'll have to slow down work on the RR. :laugh:


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## Big Ed

See what I was talking about on your blue house? Your new build almost looks like the same building as the first one. Though the second story on the new build is taller.

But look at the windows on the first one compared to the second one.
Maybe it is the door on the first build, too small?

Not rivet counting, just trying to explain what I was talking about on the blue house.

This second one looks right on. Looks great. :thumbsup:


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## michelle

thank you.

Big Ed, it is the same style house because I put the door at 6' then added steps in front it turned out too small around 4 1/2' . I have been thinking about redo the building it was one of the first I scratch built in n-scale. It was a learned experience. You got a good eye for detail. The original building was a train station over the years the platform came off and I had to reglue the walls together. I am rebuilding it as a train station but I don't have the original colors so they changed. The building I copied is Villanova train station done from a picture not blue prints so the measurements are not right. 

Gunrunnerjohn, I am 45 I might not go back to work. My husband makes enough money the house is almost paid off, I might take an early retirement. I am still debating it and not looking for a job right now. 29 years of working since I was a 16 year old girl from babysitting to ringing up customers. At least I am taking a break.


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## Big Ed

OK, I see now if you took the steps away it might look a little more to size.
Six foot? Most doors are seven foot? 
All you have to do with the blue house is leave the steps and make the door bigger then?

Looks 100% better then my scratch built house, I never made one. 

But like I said, in the second house they are right on. :thumbsup:

Maybe think about a chimney up top?
Gutters? You can make the down spouts with the right sized drinking straws or drink mixers.
And when you place it on the table it would need a white picket fence around it. 

The station looks great too, but.......









One question, this is a N scale passenger train right, not HO? In this picture do you think the roof looks a little low sitting next to the train? Maybe it is just me who thinks it looks a little low?
Maybe your going to raise it?

Sorry Michelle, Like I said I am not rivet counting but am just saying what I think/observe, maybe I am wrong? 



An easy fix just raise the whole base up and add some step down stairs around it and a bulkhead along the tracks.
Is it me or do others think it looks low, come on others don't be bashful.


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## wingnut163

to the train, yes. if i remember right, the roof would come to the rain rail of the train.

my 2 cents


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## michelle

You are right Big Ed but the train and station are just sitting on my work table. Once the foundation is put in place with the park lot it would raise the station 1/2" from the base. 

I have to get my hubby to build the benchwork for this section. I do things a little different from the normal way I guess. My husband is a contractor so I picked up some things from him over the past 20 years. I pour fondations for my buildings it keeps them level, mix plaster watery add gray paint into mix and pour it levels itself off.

I do like your ideas of gutters and drain pipes just not sure how to do that. The gutters would be about 6" wide or 1mm I got an idea for the station thanks. 

I put the 1/2" plywood I use for forms to pour the plaster into under the station. Is that beter?


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## michelle

Big Ed don't be sorry keep it up wish some people around here would give input like that.

What do you think gutter and drainage just needs some paint.

















chimney









I forgot to post these picture last time.

























the next building walls cut out and taped together for now, wanted to make sure it all fit together.


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## Big Ed

OK.

I am not picking on you.
I just see things and pass them on in the threads. 
I do that to all. 

If I see something that looks out of place I don't keep it a secret and just say it looks great. I just have to say something about it. Sometimes that is a good thing other times someone might get mad at me. But....that is me. 

That looks better. :thumbsup:

I don't know about the gutters, but straws make nice downspouts if you find the right size. I will search on the actual making of N scale gutters.
What you did under the station will work. Ask hubby to be on the lookout for scrap foam pieces. Blue or pink. You can use them too. The foam carves out nice with a pencil burner or even a pencil for making blocks of rock, or simulating planks of wood.
Though for the station platform I would think most of the old ones were wood planks. I guess new ones could be concrete.

Either way that is much better looking, you should have said that then I wouldn't have had to say anything.




This picture is of a trestle I bought from one of our members. I made the rock base out of packing foam the kind you see in appliance boxes. The rock holding up the trestle is made from old meat packing foam trays. The foam that holds the chicken or steaks when you buy them, it comes in a variety of sizes. (just clean them good with soap)
The rock bases I made our going to be used else where now, as I changed the base to ceiling tiles and I used 2 empty mushroom foam containers and made smaller rock foundations now.
I am just trying to show you what you can do with scrap foam. (free garbage)
The whole thread is here,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=13154

As with most of my projects it is still waiting to be finished.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> Big Ed don't be sorry keep it up wish some people around here would give input like that.
> 
> What do you think gutter and drainage just needs some paint.



View attachment 27989


View attachment 27990



I was posting as you were posting this, the pictures are a little fuzzy but from what I see the gutters look good. What did you use?
I don't know about the downspout, maybe that would look better coming straight down?

I got to run, things to do.
I will stop back later.
What do you plan on doing to the base you made to raise the station?
Later got to go.


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## michelle

Sorry about the pictures I had to rush it being Saturday everyone is home and calling "mom or hun"

For the gutter I glued a strip .010 x.040 strene the same I used for around the windows. The drain pipe I got tube strene to use for pipes for a future project. Cut angles for the curves if it went straight down someone would have walked into it in real life anyway. I checked the height of the pipe 9' to 7' at the post. Once I get a chance to paint it I will take some more pictures hopefully clearer. 

The plan for under the station is to pour plaster 1/2" thick under the station it will be the foundation and the parking lot will be poured the same time. At the edge of the parking lot I will shave the plaster down on an angle as a drainage ditch before going back to nature.


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## Carl

Welcome. Enjoy your new layout planning activities. Great to see another scratch-builder on-board.


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## michelle

*my collection*

thank you carl for the welcome.

I seen Big Ed's post of his collection of trains. Mind is no where as large as his collection. 
93 rolling stock
9 passenger
10 steam locomotives
8 diesel locomotives

I want a layout to service the trains so I needed an idea of what I have to see what I need to build. Also found out what I still need or want to get. 

Industies needed
As gross as it is I have a lot of cattle cars so a meat processing plant.
A fuel refinary for the shell tank cars.
A farm for fress produce pacific fruit cars.
A bunch of factories for the different box cars.
An ore place for the gondolas half full of coal, other half empties.
Stations for passengers.
A grain elevator for the covered hoppers.

The biggerst thing would be sidings and yard facilities of for over a 100 cars, I am not done collecting. 

An over view of all n-scale trains that are in running condition, I found 4 cars missing wheel trucks. 

The locomotives are all Bachmann some are over 20 years old. The freight are mostly model power the others I picked from hobbyshop or train shows and I forget who made them.


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## michelle

*final plan mod 1*

This is the track plan I think I am going with for the first modular piece. Having both the station and warehouse/ factory on the same side of the module leaves room for nature or houses on the other side. 










I should have benchwork in a couple of days hopefully. I am going to work on the warehouse/ factory now.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> thank you carl for the welcome.
> 
> I seen Big Ed's post of his collection of trains. Mind is no where as large as his collection.
> 93 rolling stock
> 9 passenger
> 10 steam locomotives
> 8 diesel locomotives
> 
> I want a layout to service the trains so I needed an idea of what I have to see what I need to build. Also found out what I still need or want to get.
> 
> Industies needed
> As gross as it is I have a lot of cattle cars so a meat processing plant.
> A fuel refinary for the shell tank cars.
> A farm for fress produce pacific fruit cars.
> A bunch of factories for the different box cars.
> An ore place for the gondolas half full of coal, other half empties.
> Stations for passengers.
> A grain elevator for the covered hoppers.
> 
> The biggerst thing would be sidings and yard facilities of for over a 100 cars, I am not done collecting.
> 
> An over view of all n-scale trains that are in running condition, I found 4 cars missing wheel trucks.
> 
> The locomotives are all Bachmann some are over 20 years old. The freight are mostly model power the others I picked from hobbyshop or train shows and I forget who made them.


Welcome to trainaholics. 
Well you have me beat on Steam Locomotives & passenger cars I think, I got to look for my passenger cars yet. 
You have a nice collection. :thumbsup:

The few steam locos I have need some sort of work I think I only tested one.
Do yours all work OK?

If you read my thread from the beginning you see that for most of my N I traded with a family member. And the small layout was built by my big sister and as she was moving and did not have the room for it I took it over.
I did buy a few cars and a couple of locomotives. 

You don't have to build sidings that big but it would look impressive if you could.
I don't know what kind of room your building in but a big shelf on the wall can house a lot of rolling stock and you can swap them out as you go along.
You probably don't have room but a round house to park all your steam locos would be nice too. Your list of what you want is fairly large now.

One thing I would mention is that what ever room your using plan for the largest amount of room you can afford from the get go, as it always seems like you expand later on anyway.

On your list you forgot a town for your houses, and every town needs a gas station.
You should have a coaling station to fill the tenders along with a water tank close by too.
You need a bunch of we little people, along with cars and trucks and machines.
Keep your eye open for them too.


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## michelle

Thanks Ed, prood to be a member of trainaholics.
All my locomotives work some need oil. One is new never been run just got it mother's day. 
As far as room I have 2 rooms, but I have to share the rooms with others. First room is 15'x16' the second room is 10'x8'. My areas are 5'x16' and 5'x10' ceiling hieght is 6 1/2' I could fit three shelf layouts connected by helixes into the area. Of course the top level I will need a ladder to work on it, but might be worth it.

The finished station I don't know why the pictures are coming out blurry hope these are better the the other ones.

















I got started on the factory/warehouse for the first module. I found pictures of this building on a website selling the kit. The size might be different but the look is about the same. I have to have a picture to copy from.


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## michelle

I have been playing around with some track on the work table to get an idea of what it would look like with the buildings on and came up with something different from the track plan. I could get 2 industries on the same module. Not good at storing some of the cars but would give 2 kind of cars some place to service. 

















I started another factory or industry to replace the card board building.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You're really enjoying this time off, aren't you?


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## michelle

Time off has it good points as well as the bad. Today problems arose and I had to take of that. I did not get much work done on the trains. I was enjoying myself when everone had something to do.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Michelle, everything has it's good points and bad points.


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## michelle

You are so right gunrunnerjohn. 

My children are done school for the summer and it seems mom is to find things for them to do. The ages are 19 and 17 not 10 or 11 both boys. Once they got out of the house I did manage to get some work done, but this is going to be a long summer.

I got the walls painted for the warehouse/ factory
















This is the building I am trying to make. I did add more door and bigger windows.


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## gunrunnerjohn

My daughter is 35, and I certainly hope I can get her out of the house at some point.


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## Big Ed

Dam the torpedo's and full steam ahead!
You better slow down girl, ya got all summer! 

Tell me this building here,










Did you scratch build/cut this one?
If so, how did you cut the windows out? 

Looking good. :thumbsup:


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## golfermd

Looking great Michelle.

Dan


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## New Berlin RR

looking great, and if you can't get them out of the house, least you could do is have them help you with your projects...


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## michelle

Thank you.

Having the boys help would be like having the bull watching the china shop.

Ed this is how I did the many panes for just this building
this is the back of the window had to zoom in so the picture is not that clear








I cut strips of styerne little bigger then the window or windows. I marked were the strips go every 1' The pieces going across went in first across two windows at a time. Then the up and down pieces got glued on top of the cross pieces. If anyone know the terms for these pieces fell free to bring it up. I used dark colors on the windows to hide that they are stacked and not one piece. 








To finish off the window yellow cunstruction paper since I can not soder led together. 









I use the same styrene for all my windows but for regular with one piece going down I glue them to it on the same level. The next building I make I will take step by step pictures to show what I mean.


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## Carl

Nice buildings.


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## michelle

Thank you carl

I redid the track plan for this module what do you think three industries and a staion on one 2x4 module. On the modules to come there will be crossovers for run around action.


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## michelle

This building is almost done it came out a little darker then I would have liked but it could be the slaughter house. The underside of the roof has to be painted still. I was looking at dry transfers and might use some to put names of the factories on them.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Names would be cool, but the stuff is looking great!


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## Big Ed

I was wondering how you made the window slats. (or whatever they are called)

They look great, they (the buildings) are all coming along nicely. 
Definitely need names. 
Don't forget to leave room for the trains.


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## michelle

thank you 

I will leave room for the trains. If anyone has suggestions for company names fell free to leave suggestions.
The first module 2' x 4' I did it without my husband's help. Got the plywood cut at Homedepot but the guy cut it too wide by 3". 


























Once the glue is dried I will start marking were the track will go and set up forms to pour the foundations for the buildings. It will be a couple of days I have another module to build.


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## wingnut163

oh i see glued down weights. i thought they were going to be mountains!! darn, would have been nice having a train run through them cuts.



Snicker.


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## Big Ed

M.M.M.

Michelle Model Manufacturing......Plant


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## wingnut163

good name


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## michelle

thank you,

M.M.M. maybe I should paint one pink for that name. They can manufactory Barbie furniture at least my daughters would like it. 

I think the slaughter house is going to be Dave's slaughter, I got the idea while building the second module's bench work. I am done for today. 

I am going to place an order for the switches and tracks this Friday hopefully. I have to get the foundations poured before the track can go in. With so many industries on this small area most of it will be flat ground but there will be some room for foam carving for terrain that has to be done after the track is in place.


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## michelle

I poured the foundations for the buildings here are the first two

























after the plaster dried 









I also repainted the one building a lighter color


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## Big Ed

Your not going to have cellars? :thumbsup:


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## michelle

No cellars will not see them so why put them in. 

Here is what I did today. I pulled the forms off of the last two foundations. Pulled out the old track and set it in to get an idea of how much sanding is needed, looks like very little. 

Foundation for the M.M.M. single siding.








I am not sure if this will be a slaughter house or feed mill but it has two sidings so income material or cattle on one side finished product on the other.








The foundation for the station








The foundation for the warehouse/ factory








It takes a while for the foundations to dry completely so I did not want to put the buildings in place yet. I have to get new track still for the area. Then I can start gluing down more pink foam and shape the land from there. I might try to do that before the track goes down.


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## michelle

Here goes the start of the land scape. Pink foam glued down and roughly shaped. Once dried I will go in and shape more of it. I hate to have flat terrain not realistic.


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## michelle

I little preview of the module. I still have a long way to go before I can put the track down.


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## michelle

It is starting to take shape. This is only the bottom layer of grass. After the bottom level is dried I will use watered down glue to add different colors of grasses. While shaping the land the foam pulled up and had to get glued back down so I could only do half of the module.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Looking great, you are really forging ahead on your RR. :thumbsup:


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## michelle

Thank you 

I spent some time with the old layout just to remind myself what was wrong with it and to get motivated to replace it. I painted the backing and put what buildings I have in place to get an over all picture of it before continuing. I started on the M.M.M. building today did not get much done only the four walls cut out and window openings. From looking at the picture this section does need some more buildings maybe two houses along the back.


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## wingnut163

what has happened to this post. the MMM building was finished. and the post date is may????

did we go back in time???


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## michelle

wingnut163 said:


> what has happened to this post. the MMM building was finished. and the post date is may????
> 
> did we go back in time???


Sorry for the confusion we did not go back in time. The name was made up then but not the building

Unnamed station








Dave's slaughter house 








unnamed warehouse/ factory








This is going to be the M.M.M.
















Some bad news on the building the front wall took the rest of the styrene strips for the windows. I placed an order today so the construction will be put on hold until UPS comes through. 

Sorry about the confusion but I still need a few names still.


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## Carl

Really enjoy seeing the progress on your model railroad.


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## michelle

I am glad you are enjoying the progress Carl. I am having fun working on it as well. I got the other half painted and the bottom layer of grass stuff on. Also all the siding tracks are down with the switches in place. I am not going to put the main line tracks in until the next module is in place. 
































You can tell I just got done the glue is still white. I am not sure if anyone else uses the foam this way on the forum but it might give some an idea. I got the idea watching some one shape mountains using the foam on youtube.com. I took it to a small level instead of mountain just the basic ground. 

I want to get a couple of houses in the back ground and the only way I can figure doing that is with half houses since nobody's back door open onto the tracks. The modules on both sides of this one will have to have streets for these buildings, but that is the next module I want to finish this one first. I am done for today until tomorrow.


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## michelle

I started to half houses for the back ground. The first one is a rail fans house got a porch to sit on and watch the trains rain or shine. Not bad for a couple of hours piece and quiet. I might get back to it later on today.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It looks like you have a bunch of projects all running in parallel. You seem to have mastered multi-tasking.


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## michelle

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It looks like you have a bunch of projects all running in parallel. You seem to have mastered multi-tasking.


I am not sure what you mean by a bunch of projects it is all the same layout. I am sure I am not the only one that moves on when waiting for an order to come in or paint to dry. 

As for the multi tasking I have been a mother and wife for 20 years you learn multi tasking quick.

Yesterday I had trouble getting back on the computer kids and computer games. I painted part of the house and started another half house for the back ground and painted that as well. I have to wait until the styrene strips I ordered come in to build the fence for the porch but I did get the steps in and wood to keep animals from going under the porch in.


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## michelle

More work done this morning

































I am going out today so this is it for now.


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## Big Ed

What is with the one picture showing a NO LOITERING sign on the wall?  

You don't let anyone loiter around the layout? 

Your structures are looking good. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn

big ed said:


> What is with the one picture showing a NO LOITERING sign on the wall?


That was for you Ed, she heard about you and was concerned.


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## michelle

The sign is a from when the train room was a store. We had a video store but the bootleggers around here put us out of business. We were going to change the store into a hobby shop but ran into problems finding distributors. That is the store I worked at for 18 years, while my husband kept his day job thank god for that. I started that layout about 2 years ago in the hopes we could have a hobby shop. We cut the store in half to get that started but things did not turn out as planed. We live upstairs to the store and ended up moving stuff into the back area where the layout is at first it was the train stuff then came the books and so on. Enough of looking back I am starting to get depressed have to look ahead right.

I am expecting the styrene strips on Monday. I will get back to work then since fathers day is tomorrow.


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## Big Ed

Sorry to dig up bad memories. 

On with the new! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## michelle

It's ok Big Ed. At least now I have more time to work on the trains and take care of the family. I might still have a hobby shop once the mortgage is paid off for the building I might have enough money to convert it. And with the help from the forum I can gain the knowledge I need to run a hobby shop. Know what to call the "thing of a jigs" would be helpful in dealing with peoples questions and then I might know what they are asking. I ran into that on other post I read here got totally lost.


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## michelle

The delivery came in about 5:30 yesterday. Here are a few pictures of how I made the windows.


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## michelle

After 3 packs of strips and countless of cutting and placing here is the M.M.M. building.

































I did not like the way it looked on the stop I chosen before it completely blocked the station so I put it on the other side but it looks modern next to the older style buildings.


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## michelle

Check out bottom of page 7 for beginning pictures to theses ones if you did not already see them. 

Other things I got done was the roofs on the houses and deciding were to place them on the layout. The next step would be to cut the foundation out and poor plaster to level it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

That's looking really nice! I like the window detail, those are very nicely done. :thumbsup:


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## Carl

Very nice detail


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## michelle

Thank you. 

I have been working on the design for the next modules inspiration hit. The next module I want it to be a refinery with only the round tanks and maybe a factory on the other side of the tracks. 









I do not know the sizes the height or diameter of the tanks. 

I only found a picture of a kit for one tank if there are many tanks are they connected to each other?

I know I should finish off the first module before starting a second one, but I also got drawn on paper 2 more modules. I did not do them in anyrail yet, one is just a run through urban setting with mountain at one end, the other is coal loading with mountain running next to loader. 

I will get more work done on mod 1 for tomorrow hopefully if everything goes to plan here.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The great thing about tanks is they come in all sizes and shapes, so it's really hard to go wrong with almost anything. 

You can get a reasonable scale for them by just looking at refinery pictures on the Internet.


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## plandis

someday, I hope to have the maturity to have the patience to do that! Good job!


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## michelle

thank you.

I seen pictures on the internet since they come in all sizes that might be what was confusing me. For the factory there are so many that are abandon around here I could pace it out. The refinery around here is still in use and has a chain link fence around it. Which reminds me I have to put that on my shopping list. 

I found a video on making chain link fences out of an old wedding vow, not mine I will go and buy the material instead and styrene tubes for the pipes. 

Did not get as much done as I thought I would. 

A picture from a side view 








The cut out for the foundation of the houses
















The plaster used to level the buildings it might need more added tomorrow as the plaster sets it might shrink a little


----------



## michelle

I painted most of the M.M.M. building still have to paint the roof to paint. 

The building are on their foundations. 

The module is close to were it would go, just need hubby to take out the shelf that is there and drop the module in its place. The next module is ready to get started, I need stuff from to make fences and trees plus different colors of grasses. I might wait until I can get them before moving on to the next module.


----------



## michelle




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## michelle

I am trying to stay focus on the one module but now I am starting to think doing modules was a stupid idea. I get no help from the people around here (home) about what to do. I guess they think trains are a waste of time. I am thinking about taking apart the old layout before the replacement is built. I am also thinking about forgetting the module idea and go back to the one piece layout, but that would mean knowing all the track plan at once instead of designing 4' at a time. 

I think that I am going to have to do this myself and take out the shelf and put the modules I built into place then from there work as though it is a layout not a module layout but just a layout. I will work on the top level while I have trains to run on the bottom level once the top is done then I will take out the bottom and work on that. 

It might be a while before I can get the carpentry stuff done to continue working on the layout, but I think it would be better.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I like the idea of modules, don't give up just yet.


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## wingnut163

you could go to a full table lay out but only work on track work on 4' sets. the size of the table dont mean you have to figure all the track out.

good luck on either way you go.


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## michelle

I will try to continue the way I started. It get frustrating waiting until someone is able to help carry the module to my work area, since the layout room is so dark. With the buildings in place and stuff the module has to stay level while carried. I glued them down but I am afraid to tilt it over in case the glue does not hold. I have to finish them in the layout room. 

I did some shopping in town today for wedding vow material to use for chain link fences around the industrial buildings. I hope that the unleveled ground does not cause a problem for putting in the fences. My idea is to make the poles a 1/2" longer then the fence and drill a small hole into the foam to place them into. The fence sections are going to be 6' high but 8' lengths should be small enough to work on the terrain I made.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Why not add lights to the layout room, even temporary lights?


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## michelle

you make it sound so simple. I have a plug in light that I use on when I am working on it. It is easier working on the table with the bench instead of standing and leaning over the layout. The shelf the layout is on is 5' high my work table 2 and 1/2 feet high. 

I tried the fence with different size styrene I had success with one out of three but I think it is too big. The round stuff did not work at all and fell right apart. The .020 x .020 held together but the chain link fence did not hold to it. The .040 x.040 had enough surface area to hold the fence in place. In the end I have a 6" scaled post instead of 3" diameter pole. I still have to trim the material around the post and paint silver. This is two 10' x 10' sections of fence with 5' of post to place in the foam on the layout. Like all things practice makes perfect and for a first attempt I don't think I did a bad job just take bad pictures. 








I started or the corner module part goes through the wall and a siding goes onto another module along side wall. Since I got the edge shaped I can work on that module on my work table. There is a board running up the inside of the wall so the track has to go around that. There are two holes in the wall on each side of the board. Top track on one side and the double track on the other. A mountain is going to cover up the holes in the wall.


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## wingnut163

*chin link*

since you are having trouble with the mesh sticking to the small poles. try getting some screening there is plastic screen that will stick better to the small stuff.
i used it on my 125 model navy DD. its on the main deck railing as a safety net.

i tryed to get a picture from photo bucket but they are having trouble with it.
there is a pic in one of the posts if you want to see.


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## michelle

thanks for the suggestion wingnut.

I tried something a little different on the smaller post. Instead of putting on the glue then the vow I put the vow down first and then the glue through the vow. Used a little more glue that way and if I can get the fence off my table it might work. If it does not work I will be looking for plastic scenes 

Sorry for the lack of updates been experimenting. If this works out I have enough wedding vow to make a lot of fences it is 3' long x 6' high once unfolded. The vow was three layers folded over top of each other.


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## Carl

Have you tried using super glue to hold the mesh to the post? Also, the thin styrene is highly flexible. Due to the small sizes that you are dealing with, metal might provide a solution.


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## michelle

Thanks for the suggestion Carl. What kind of metal? My first thought was paper clips for post since the styrene bent and broke when I put it in the wholes drilled in the foam. 

This is how this time worked out. 
























I like the uneven bottom makes it look old and bent but I broke some of the post putting it in. It is not glued in place yet or painted. I am not even sure if I am going to use this fence but learned a lot from making it. The best way is to make the frame and lay down the vow place the frame over the it and glue down that way. The last fence had to get cut away from the table. With the vow down first it pulled right up. I had trouble with the long fence so I am going to make shorter lengths maybe even individual fences and place side by side.


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## michelle

I got the fence making down to a science now. I got 8 sections assembled and half painted plus a gate. Also got 5 more frames made still drying. I decided that the factory owners went with prefab pieces of fence instead of having it installed. The difference is to put it in place and build it put up the poles and stretch the fence over one less pole per section. The prefab fence two poles will be put next to each other.

































I figured out the painting of the screen a little late, need to use dry brush after moving fence to remove extra paint from the mesh.


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## gunrunnerjohn

That will look great, interesting idea prefabbing the fence sections, makes it easier to build a fence.


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## michelle

Before I started I looked up how to build the real size to get an idea how to build it in n scale. Not sure when the prefab fences came out but I will run steam engines by them anyway. 
I placed the fence section I finished into place around the slaughter house. Needed to use part of a broken lamp the plug and light but it worked plus step stool to reach over, but I got them in place.


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## gunrunnerjohn

They look very real. :appl: :thumbsup:


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## michelle

thank you gunrunnerjohn that is the nicest compliment. 

I have been trying for decades to reach that level of skill. 

You are right about sticking to the modules. 

I got a lot more fences to make. Thanks again


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## wingnut163

if you like i can send you a strip of screening.


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## michelle

thank you for the offer wingnut but the vow is working just fine. 


I got some more finished today and just installed them. This company also went with the prefab but a different style fence and gate. At this rate about a week to do all the fences. 

























Could not resist put an engine from the bottom level on the tracks to act like a pick up, or set out. I did not bring the portable light out you can tell the difference in lighting.


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## wingnut163

BTW, when gluing put a piece of wax paper on your work bench. save you from cutting the glue off the bench. and you can still see the drawings .


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## michelle

thank you for the tip. I will try using wax paper. 

I am not getting work done today since it is 4th of July. I am stuck cooking today, down side for most holidays and no yard for barbecue so I have to cook . 

Hopefully I'll be back to work on the layout tomorrow even though everyone has off from work meaning my husband and one son.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> thank you for the tip. I will try using wax paper.
> 
> I am not getting work done today since it is 4th of July. I am stuck cooking today, down side for most holidays and no yard for barbecue so I have to cook .
> 
> Hopefully I'll be back to work on the layout tomorrow even though everyone has off from work meaning my husband and one son.



Just make a run to Tony Lukes (or another place) problem solved. 

Fence look good. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## michelle

I did think about going out for philly cheese steaks but not good enough. They want apple pie burgers hot dots potato salad, etc... next holiday he cooks! Then we will go out to eat.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> I did think about going out for philly cheese steaks but not good enough. They want apple pie burgers hot dots potato salad, etc... next holiday he cooks! Then we will go out to eat.


Apple pie burgers? 
Hot dots? 

Potato salad I heard of. :thumbsup:


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## michelle

sorry bit in a rush with last post ed
Apple pie made from scratch crust rolled out and apples sliced 
cheese burgers store brought
hot dogs store brought 
I also made home made soft pretzels and home made bread instead of store brought buns. 

The boys are doing the dishes right now. The dishes have to get done before dessert my rules. 

I hope everyone enjoyed the holiday I am glad it is almost over I'm tired.


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## Big Ed

OK 

I thought it might be a Philly thing. 
I never heard of apple pie burgers and hot dots. 

You will never know if you don't ask, so I had to ask.


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## California RailFan508

Consider me very impressed with your amazing work so far, Michelle. I have gone through the last few pages and have been quite impressed with the effort and attention to details that you have been putting into this layout project of yours. Can't wait to see the finished project whenever you do finish it.


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## michelle

Thank you California railfan. Don't be afraid if you see something I missed or got an idea just say so. I will try to add it into the layout. 

Big Ed, with some of the crazy stuff Philly does I don't blame you for asking. 

I got several more frames done today, but did not have a chance to put the vow on. Did not get a chance to try the wax paper yet don't have any around the house. I did put some of the main line tracks in place and placed an order for tree armatures. It might be awhile since I hardly get any time on the weekend to work on the trains for an update. 

I have an idea for a river module I seen an old picture of the Delaware river when Philly was still an industrial area. The track ran down the middle of the street with switches going to piers for ships to load and unload cargo. This was a time before the trail containers.


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## Big Ed

The tracks are still on the road on the old Delaware Ave. (now Columbus Blvd.)
That would make a nice scene.


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## Carl

Interested in seeing what river module will look like.


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## michelle

big ed said:


> The tracks are still on the road on the old Delaware Ave. (now Columbus Blvd.)
> That would make a nice scene.


The track is still there the piers are not. One fell into the river killing some people, one is a mall now pier 70. The United States was tied to one around Snyder maybe Oregon it has been a while since I was in South Philly. The one thing that makes it easier is the track is in the middle on the street divider so the switches are not paved over just the track turning onto the piers which were removed or paved over. I will have to condense it a lot from South Street to Pattison Street is over a mile. Plus I have three main lines so I have to change the number of tracks or put 2 tracks were the high way is. I will figure something out.


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## Big Ed

Apple burgers didn't sound too appetizing. 
Though Hot dots sounded interesting. 
I know some good places in Philly to get great hot pepper shooters. :smilie_daumenpos:

The SS United States?
I just posted her recently here,
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=219991&postcount=697


That is from my "Where am I thread" here,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3529


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## michelle

Ed I took a look at that post of the SS United States. Had to walk away for a while and come back to it. I started this layout project with the intent to show what Philly was like before the factories moved over seas. The hate I feel for the city derailed me from the intent. Reading some of the comments on your post stirred some emotions I know one down side from being female. I am hoping to get back on track with the Delaware river module. There is another area of the city I want to model were I fell in love with trains when I was a young girl. I might do that one first but it is all hard since nothing is left as it was a round 35 years ago. 

I am going to take some pictures of the areas and use my visions to reconstruct the areas to what they could have looked like. My layout might look weird when all these locations are joined together I just got to keep the main lines connected. 

I am going to finish the first module I started on and call what could have been. The others will have the street names were the ideas come from.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> Ed I took a look at that post of the SS United States. Had to walk away for a while and come back to it. I started this layout project with the intent to show what Philly was like before the factories moved over seas. The hate I feel for the city derailed me from the intent. Reading some of the comments on your post stirred some emotions I know one down side from being female. I am hoping to get back on track with the Delaware river module. There is another area of the city I want to model were I fell in love with trains when I was a young girl. I might do that one first but it is all hard since nothing is left as it was a round 35 years ago.
> 
> I am going to take some pictures of the areas and use my visions to reconstruct the areas to what they could have looked like. My layout might look weird when all these locations are joined together I just got to keep the main lines connected.
> 
> I am going to finish the first module I started on and call what could have been. The others will have the street names were the ideas come from.



It is like that all over the USA, look at the NYC piers. And the old Jersey piers.
I hope some of my comments weren't offending.

There are a few places to get old pictures from what years are you going for?

Here is a picture for you.

South Philly piers in the back ground is the Walt Whitman bridge and Jersey. This is 1966, shows some tracks.
When I get some time I will find some other sites and pictures if you want.
The internet, such a wonderful thing. 









I found that here,
http://www.phillyhistory.org/photoarchive/Home.aspx

Look through the site, use the search I didn't look through it all.
Got to run now.


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## michelle

Thank you Ed. I am going to check out the site once I get some time.

I could get pictures of now and then and what I create. Maybe as model railroaders we can show how America was and needs to be again. We are falling apart importing more then exporting. I seen this one video on youtube.com A guy modeled his vacation site in America and the one thing that got me was the train running down the track. It was the containers from ships with China on all most all them that should say it all. 

Pictures of the main lines in place and some more of the fence installed.


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## Gansett

Michelle, it's depressing but google abandoned factories in the north east. Here in RI the numbers are dwindling as they burn down or get converted into condos.
Here's just one of many examples.

What it was;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhode_Island_Locomotive_Works

today;
http://www.arttixri.com/venue/detail/307/American_Locomotive_Works


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## gunrunnerjohn

There are many sources of old aerial photos of the phila area, maybe you can find some old views in the period you're modeling.


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## michelle

thanks guys. 
I was looking at maps and following some old track bed around my area.

Now








The way I remember it. The blue building in the upper left is still there.








I remember I was around 7 or 8 years old. My Dad and I were going some place and got stopped by a switcher engine shunting some cars. The engine can down to pick up 4 cars 2 from each factory and put 4 different cars back. My Dad then went out and brought the switcher engine I think it was called a SW-1. I remember it was blue and ran it for years on his HO scale layout (plywood central). My Dad was a train nut and stopped to watch the action he was impressed that I did not want to leave even after the train was gone in case they came back.


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## michelle

I got some work done, a small area that is fenced in around the house








While I was up on the ladder taken pictures after putting the fence in here is a sky view of the module








I know Philly a long way for a southern pacific and Union Pacific baggage car.


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## Carl

Looking good !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## michelle

Thank you Carl.

I have been trying a different kind of fence and after several tries I think I got how to make it.

The fence is upside down and missing a lot of the wood to make the fence. I want to let this dry first then put the holes to place the fence. Then put the rest of the wood front pieces.


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## michelle

I am thinking about wiring this module up to run the trains I have sitting there. I am get tired of making fences still need a lot. I only got 2 buildings fenced in completely and once the wooden fences in done that would be 3 out of 5. I am still waiting for my tree armatures to come in the mail. It is a shame but there were 3 hobby shops near me one is now a tax return place and the other is a strip bar. The 3rd one was downtown and I think he is closed up also. All the others I found are out of the city so I have to order stuff and wait.


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## michelle

I got the wooden fence finished and installed plus added some more grass to yards and some med course green on the outside of fences. I also added some green to the other areas with the med course grass. I did not have the extra hands to hold to other light so the pictures are dark I am sorry about that. 

















the areas that still need fences
















over view of the module sitting on top of old layout.


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## California RailFan508

Looks awesome, michelle. I love seeing all of these picture updates that you post in regards to the hard work that you have been putting into your layout.


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## michelle

Thank you California rail.

I took a break from the other module and started work on the next one. I do not have a track plan for this one it is simple enough. 

Booth main lines split up and enter a tunnel. The reason for this is the holes in the wall for them to pass through are only big enough for two tracks and there is a board in the way that I have to go around. 








A street over pass will be put in here this is the edge that connects with the first module the road will be for the warehouse, Dave's slaughter house and the train station. The industries are only serviced by rail but the people can walk to the street. The passenger station will have a parking lot behind it but that is the back edge of the layout. 








Rock molds for inside the tunnel








Rocks will be added to make it look as if the tunnel was cut into the mountain.








This is were the cross over will be so engines can run around their trains to service the industries, The curve track running off the side of the modules will have another module connected to it. That module will be the Delaware river module the track turns onto Delaware Ave


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## gunrunnerjohn

Lookin' good, and I see the pictures are getting better, they're more in focus.


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## michelle

thank you gunrunnerjohn. 
The tree armatures came in the mail today but it is too hot to do anything around here right now. Maybe after dinner I will start on the trees. I did not feel like pulling out the module to work on yesterday or today because of the heat. I am ready for winter already.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> thank you gunrunnerjohn.
> The tree armatures came in the mail today but it is too hot to do anything around here right now. Maybe after dinner I will start on the trees. I did not feel like pulling out the module to work on yesterday or today because of the heat. I am ready for winter already.


They make a wonderful thing called air conditioner you know. 

The best thing that was ever invented! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I'm not sure I'd be able to deal with A/C in the current climate, I'm in SE-PA as well!


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## michelle

big ed said:


> They make a wonderful thing called air conditioner you know.
> 
> The best thing that was ever invented! :smilie_daumenpos:



A very wonderful invention which I do have, maybe it is my age but I feel drained of energy and don't feel like moving that much. I did get everything else I need to do done dinner and cleaning and the dishes the usual stuff house wives have to do. Once the heat wave is over I will get back to work on the new module. I am still working on fences and little stuff that does not require heavy lifting or step stools to reach. 

4 trees done and in place. Sorry I did not pull out the light bulb for extra light for the pictures. I have to come up with a better way to add light to the layout area then a bulb from a broken lamp a shop light would be nice


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## Big Ed

*<<<<<<<Hot!!!!!!*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm not sure I'd be able to deal with A/C in the current climate, I'm in SE-PA as well!


HUH? 

You wouldn't be able to deal with AC???
Did you mean you wouldn't be able to deal WITHOUT AC in the current climate?


I hear you Michelle, I am out there climbing up and down the tank dragging hoses out and putting them back and while loading having to wear a stupid heavy fire suit hardhat goggles and gloves to load. That alone will kill you!
It drains me too, thank God I can get in my truck every once and a while to get into the AC.
Plus getting long runs makes it nice too, just have to deal with getting out to hook up and unload then it is back to the Ac.

It drains everyone not just you.

Layout looking good, it will still be there when you get to it. :thumbsup:


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## michelle

work done today despite the heat outside. Some more trees made and planted plus the rest of the grass colors on left side of module.


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## Big Ed

With this heat make sure you water the trees a little.


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## michelle

I finally pulled out the next module to work on and found I did something wrong. I wet the molds with soapy water when I poured the plaster. This is what I got when I went to take them out.


















There were a few that came out in pieces that I used for the rock wall 
















What did I do wrong. my husband thinks seven days was too long to leave them in the molds. I had to scrub them out afterwards. Could it have been the heat that caused them to break up like that. It looks like I hit them with a hammer.

I am going to try again but this time wait an hour before taking them out.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, when you mold, you need to remove them as soon as they are set and won't deform, but before they fully dry. We've molded lots of boulders for the club layout from plaster mix, no problem at all dumping them out of the molds.


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## michelle

Thanks gunrunnerjohn. I took the other rocks out and only a couple broke in half but not into tiny pieces. I should have asked before pouring the first batch of plaster into the molds. I watched the video and they pulled all ready poured rock but did not say how long ago it was poured. After dinner I am going to put them on the layout, I planed on waiting a couple of days before painting them. Does that have to be done when the rock is wet to soak into them or can I wait a couple of days?


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## michelle

Some more work done on the mountain. I still need a few more rocks for across the top of the tunnels. I might do that after the inside is painted and track placed down so I can glue the roof onto the module. 

























Of course it would be easier to see once painted and not so white and pink.


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## wingnut163

it sure is funny. you saying about you waited 7 days before taking it out.
about 7 years ago i made a keel for a sail boat out of wood, then pored plaster half way up the master. i put it a side to let it dry so i could pore the other half. then i would pore lead in and have a lead keel for my sail boat.
well needless to say i never got around to it. but with your trouble i fished out the mold and it poped out of the container it was in. it did not break up. now i need to pore the other half.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It depends on the mold how well it releases. 

There's no time limit to painting the plaster molded stuff that I know of. Some of ours have been painted the same day, other stuff has waited weeks until we got around to it.


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## michelle

Thank you.

I had trouble with the mother in law over the weekend and she finally left. She thinks I should be knitting or something like that instead of model railroading. 

I got around to painting the rocks and I think they came out nice. According to the video I was to spray with scenic cement but instead I used water down Elmer's glue and painted it on top.









































It was fun doing and I will be doing more. I have to paint the bottom were the track will be glued down the I can start building to top of the mountain.


----------



## Carl

I agree, the rocks look good.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I had trouble with the mother in law over the weekend and she finally left. She thinks I should be knitting or something like that instead of model railroading.
> 
> I got around to painting the rocks and I think they came out nice. According to the video I was to spray with scenic cement but instead I used water down Elmer's glue and painted it on top.


Maybe knit her some socks for a Christmas present. :thumbsup:

I think they look great. The color too.:smilie_daumenpos:

My opinion is basically that is all Scenic Cement is. Watered down glue, but your paying for the name. Just more expensive and I don't really like the way it works.

Do you mean you sprayed/glued the rock castings to the foam or you sprayed it with glue then painted over the top of the glue? 
If the later what is the purpose of spraying with glue just to paint it?
I never heard of that?


----------



## wingnut163

the glue acts as a barrier between the paint and the foam. this way it will not eat the foam. i did see it in a you tube video on making foam rocks/mountains.

looking good, dont let the M in law bather you. hubby and kids are all that have any say and that is limited too.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Don't listen to the MIL! I find it very refreshing to see some ladies enjoying the hobby. Truthfully, I suspect as a group the females are probably more artistic than the men, so it's a good fit.


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## michelle

Thank you all. 

The video I saw was from woodland scenic the rocks get plaster on the backs before the foam. Then painted with their pigments and then sprayed with their scenic cement to stop the colors from fading. The rocks do look a little lighter in color today I am going to wait until tomorrow and bring the module back into my work area and see if it is the lighting or if they faded in color. 

Here is the link or address of the video I got the information from. It is kind of long but very helpful. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNlE941-Nns


I can not knit socks for anyone never learned how. 

I did end up finding a part time job so I will have to slow up on building the layout. I work Tuesday through Thursday only three days a week.


----------



## wingnut163

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Don't listen to the MIL! I find it very refreshing to see some ladies enjoying the hobby. Truthfully, I suspect as a group the females are probably more artistic than the men, so it's a good fit.


for the first time i agree with john. 

and for the job, more time to think on what is next and $$$$ to do it.


----------



## michelle

It is not about gender it is about practice and determination. 

there is something to the scenic cement the color did fade on the rocks. 

I did have time to think about how to get the road in and what to put next to the road. Tomorrow I am going to start on the concrete things to hold up the road. Since I have to get that scenic cement I will start on the other side of the module.


----------



## michelle

The lighter rocks not so noticeable in pictures but up close they are lighter then normal rocks.


























the start of road crossing the tracks


----------



## michelle

more pictures 









































Had some trouble since the road is on an incline and not flat so there will be a lot of sanding in a couple of days.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Rocks come in all colors, so I wouldn't be worried if they look light to you. 

Time for a belt sander there.


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## michelle

I am having second thoughts about this module just the right side of it. I might get rid of the road all together. I do not like the way it looks and never really cared for road crossings that much. I know that roads are important in an industrial area. I am going to redo that section.


----------



## michelle

I am sorry it has been awhile since I was able to update the layout progress. I decided to take out the bridge and go with track level crossings and more buildings. This is an industrial layout and to have 4 feet with nothing just did not seem right. I spent some time rethinking the whole thing. I am keeping the mountain to hide the fact it will be going through a wall into another room. Before the mountain there is going to be the road and on the right side back a flat factory building as back drop and in the front a farm house type building. I am still working on there designs.


----------



## michelle

I ended up wasting a day that I could have been working on something. I tried to get into the grove watched videos and stuff like that, but ended up not doing anything train related today. I did get paid today and ordered more material for scratch building stuff.


----------



## Big Ed

michelle said:


> I ended up wasting a day that I could have been working on something. I tried to get into the grove watched videos and stuff like that, but ended up not doing anything train related today. I did get paid today and ordered more material for scratch building stuff.


Everyone does that and you did accomplish something by doing research with the videos.
It will still be there waiting for you, it won't run away. 

Everyone needs a day of just relaxing and doing nothing. 
Don't feel guilty.:smokin:


----------



## michelle

thanks Ed.

My husband noticed I was down and while he was out working found a vcr tape steam across America. I did do a little work on the layout until I found out the plaster was not dry enough. I was shaping the ground when I hit the plaster and messed some of that up. I ended up putting more plaster down to fix it. Now I know why the video said to wait 2-3 days until the plaster is dry. A 1/4" thick road of drywall plaster does not dry fast. I though about 36 hours would have been long enough I was wrong, the top layer was dry but not under and a slab moved. I have to wait until I get the styrene in to work on the buildings so it looks like I get some time off. I am going to watch the vcr tape maybe that would cheer me up.


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## gunrunnerjohn

You have discovered why you use that in thin layers!  When the outside dries, it keeps the moisture inside for longer on thick layers. It also tends to crack.


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## michelle

Should I take the plaster up and redo it or wait until it dries all the way. Cracks in a road surface is normal in Philly anyway. The last time I looked at it I did not see any cracks but if I sand it they might form. 

I fell asleep watching steam across America last night.

I am guessing that eveything on youtube.com is not completely true with model railroading. I seen a video about how to make roads and he put on one layer over the rails and down for the street. He did use blue painters tape which I did not have to keep the street width. I figured I could paint the road chip off what needs to be off and cover the rest with ground foam. I do not want to give up on making roads.

This is what I got right now.


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## Big Ed

michelle said:


> Should I take the plaster up and redo it or wait until it dries all the way. Cracks in a road surface is normal in Philly anyway. The last time I looked at it I did not see any cracks but if I sand it they might form.
> 
> I fell asleep watching steam across America last night.
> 
> I am guessing that eveything on youtube.com is not completely true with model railroading. I seen a video about how to make roads and he put on one layer over the rails and down for the street. He did use blue painters tape which I did not have to keep the street width. I figured I could paint the road chip off what needs to be off and cover the rest with ground foam. I do not want to give up on making roads.
> 
> This is what I got right now.


Did you dream about riding in an old passenger car while being pulled by an old steam engine? 

Not all the stuff on you tube you can believe.
A lot of the videos are just someone like you or me posting them.
Who's to say my way or your way is right.
You can get some great ideals from watching some.

I think that you should have laid your track down first? Then make the road after you are sure the track is set and running right?

Why are you so set on making plaster roads? 
There are other ways to make roads.

The plaster will dry but if you put it on thick it will take longer to dry, plus the humidity in the air will lengthen the drying time. Try a blow dryer? If it cracks a little you can always fill it in or like you said transform the cracks into real road cracks.
There is such a thing as wet sanding, when I plaster walls I wet sand them.
Try a blow dryer to hasten the drying process.

What you have will look better with a LOT of sanding. Most of the time when your building something like that it won't look good till your done. 
That goes for the road bridge that you took out, that was crossing the rails. It might have looked a lot better after you were done. I think you gave up on the ideal too soon.
Don't give up too soon.

Now.....start sanding that road, and see how it comes out.


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## michelle

My dream vacation an old steam engine with pullman coaches across country along the transcontinental line. 

I am going to give the plaster one more day to dry then sand. The overpass the plaster was so thin since it was plaster of paris and the incline sanding made a big mess and broke the overpass. I figured I better stick to level crossings if this way does not work out then I am going back to what I know will work styrene sheet painted black and cut to fit between the rails. I did manage to get one crossing done right took a lot of sanding and chipping with a screw driver to get it right.


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## dave1905

Helpful hint:

Build balsawood "curbs" on either side of the road, held down with pins. Then put the plaster down and scrape it off smooth with the tops of the curbs. Gives a much smoother road crossing.

Don't plaster over the track if you can help it. Stop at the ties and put in wood crossing planks made from balsa wood. You can even buy them laser cut now.

If you must plaster over the track, strike the plaster off even with the tops of rails to minimize the amount of post cure sanding etc you have to do, cut in the flangeways after the plaster sets but before it hardens. Its a wooly bugger to cut flangeways in fully cured plaster. 

Easiest way is to cut flangeways is to get an old hacksaw blade and break off a piece about 3" long. Hold it along side the rails and "saw' down through the plaster. Another method is to put some balsa wood along the insides of the rail, then do the plaster and pull out the balsa wood, leaving the flanges clear.


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## michelle

thanks for the tips Dave but the wood crossing would change the look of the crossing. The next crossing I would use the wood against the rail and curb. I used a knife and metal ruler to cut the plaster from the flanges and bright boy on an angel to clear the track. It was a little hard to do since the plaster was dry and some did break away which I added more to fill in.

I used a knife and screw driver to get the size for the road








Sanded with power sander small one a little bit came out during the sanding 








used knife and ruler to cut flanges and bright boy to clear and vacuum to remove. The caboose does role through normally 








Added more plaster to fix the part that came out 








The rest of the street does have a little up hill hump away from the tracks the only way I noticed it was by running my hands over it. I think it is normal for roads to have them anyway. I got that little bit of plaster to dry and go over again but I want to shape the rest of the land and start painting it. I have a couple more days until my shipment comes and I can start building buildings again. Since the repair on the street in not near the foam I should be alright to continue.


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## Carl

I think when all is said and done, it will look good.


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## michelle

thanks carl. 

spent today catching up on housework mostly. I did get the order in and started on another factory type building. I did not get that much done but at least I did do something. This building is going on the back drop part of it will only be one wall. I saw in a video using foam board behind to give a little depth to the building I am going to try that. Maybe once I get a building on this section I will feel like working on it again. 

Pictures to come once I start putting things together.


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## michelle

I did not get to work on the building but got something done on the module. Just to let you all know this is the bottom level of a two level layout. The flat top mountain might just fit under the next level. I grassed it just in case it does not get total hidden by the top level. 

























The paint is still wet and road needs a second coat plus the rails needed cleaning again.


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## Carl

Nice progress!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Chipping away at it in good sized chunks, looks great. :thumbsup:


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## michelle

thank you guys.

I finally got to work on the building. It gets hard to do anything with everyone home cannot wait until classes start and everyone gets out for a while at least. this is what I got done so far 

























The original building is empty and I have no idea what it was when in operations. I walk by it often to the ell station, might be why I wanted to build it in the first place. I got to remember to take a camera with me the next time I pass by the place. I have been using googlemaps.com to look at the building but can not seem to save pictures from it. I keep running back and forth to the computer while making the building. I have to go that way today so maybe I'll get a picture and show everybody what I am trying to make.


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## Carl

This is a scratch build or a kit?


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## michelle

the building is scratch built. here is a very bad picture of the building in real life. it is in a bad neighborhood so it was taken quickly. the address is 3425 j street 19134 in the kensington area of Philly if any one wants to googlemap the area


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## gunrunnerjohn

I don't go to Kensington without my AR-15 nowadays, so I see why you were in a hurry!


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## niehausiiw

Is this your building?

It looks similar to the one you are scratch building.








Sorry about the big picture.


Bill


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## michelle

thank you that is the very building I am copying. How did you get the picture of the computer screen? 

That is the front of the building I am doing the back of it same wall no doors. It would not make sense to walk out a door onto active railroad tracks.

















Sorry about the dark pictures but that is the train room. It will be that way until income tax returns come in 2014. I used up the last of the dirt mix and the paint for the base on this section. I put the building close to were it will be. I got plans for a building for the front section to build later.


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## niehausiiw

Good Morning, 

Once I had the building in google maps, I hit the print screen button (prnt scrn) on my laptop. That saves it to your clipboard.
Then I opened up paint in the accessories folder in the start menu for windows. In the paint tabs at the top one of them says paste from clipboard. Hit that button. If your are running windows XP then you need to click on the edit tab and hit paste from there.

I hope that helps.


That is a huge old beautiful building.


Bill


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## michelle

thank you that helps a lot now I don't have to take pictures of the building that I want to build most of them are in Kensington.


I had to try to get a picture of the real building that I copied for the MMM building

















I had to make it thinner to fit between the tracks but same idea


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## niehausiiw

You are welecome. I just learned how to do that last week.
Your scratch built buildings are beautiful.


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## michelle

thank you. I try to get as close to the real building as I can but some times space restrictions I have to cut part of the building off. 

I got the windows done on the wall. The curve window at the top is boarded up and I had to use some imagination on what it looked like before. I went with a different way of thinking then the square shaped windows.


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## Carl

Excellent attention to detail. When all is done, you should be happy about the end result.


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## michelle

thank you Carl.

I decided to work on this part of the building first 








It is hard to see but I got the edging done on the first part of the building and all the roof supports. Ok strips to glue the roof to. 

























the next part of the building to work on tomorrow.


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## michelle

today's work


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## gunrunnerjohn

You're really "going to town" so to speak.  Progress every day, imagine how fast this will come together after school starts!


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## Carl

Very nicely done !!!!!!!!!!


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## California RailFan508

Fantastic work, Michelle. Your attention to detail for your buildings is nothing short of amazing.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Hi Michelle -- I just started reading your posts and am impressed with your scratch building techniques. As I hope to build my own structures for a future S-Scale layout, I have about 10,000 questions for you, but for now will sit back and watch as you continue to amaze us. Very well done.


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## michelle

thank you all.

Sorry to say I had work today and did not get anything done on the layout. I am afraid that when school starts I loose the help I have with the house work. My daughter picked 4 classes this semester. The bright side is the boys will be out of the house less to clean up. I was only away for 6 hours and it took me 2 hours to clean up their mess (17 and 20 years old).
I might paint the roof after dinner right now I have it in the oven.

Nuttin But Flyer I have no problem answering question just don't ask all 10,000 at once.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... Michelle, at 17 and 20, I'd have them cleaning up their own mess! You can remind them that living on their own they'll have to clean up as well and they won't get that good home cookin'!


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## michelle

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Hmm... Michelle, at 17 and 20, I'd have them cleaning up their own mess! You can remind them that living on their own they'll have to clean up as well and they won't get that good home cookin'!


I thought the same thing but it took about 2 hours to get them to clean up. The sink was full of dishes and the floor was not swept and mopped. If I would have just done it myself instead of making them clean it would have been half hour at the most. 

They would rather have take out then home cooked food they are teenagers still. They would rather have pizza instead of meat loaf. Their idea for cleaning their own house is to" hire a maid or get married" .


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Let them spend their money to hire a maid or get married - it's not a job you should be required to do. Everyone is supposed to help out in the household. Time to start kickin' some butt.


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## michelle

It was not that bad once I got home from work a little mess handful of dishes but easily taken care of. I got to remember my boys have a different definition of clean. I would tell them to clean the table and that means to them put all the dishes even clean ones into the sink. I tell that to my daughters and the dishes get washed and put away. With the boys the crumbs get wiped off the table onto the floor, my daughters use a trash can for the crumbs.

After dinner I finished painting the building. I still need the yellow paper for the windows to add lights and it will be ready for the layout. I have to get more of the base paint before I can place it and need fences around it before I can say it is finished.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Looks great !!


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## michelle

thank you.

I got started on the fences 20 pieces in all. I made them the same way as before for the other factories. I did not take pictures since I made these before. Tomorrow I will finish them up and get something for the ground cover it install the building and fence. now to make plans for the next buildings maybe some houses for employees to live in.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Many years ago, in the mid to late 40's, the area I live in now was "built-up" by the Bethlehem Steel Company in nearby Bethlehem, PA. They had many small cape cod homes built on multiple properties and neighborhoods, all looking much the same with few distinct differences. These were created for the employees of the Steel Company as it was a great location to raise families and yet very close to the work place. Those were the days...


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## wingnut163

i to was born in phily, north. newkirt st. moved back to ny in 45. dad worked in the ship yard laying out the main deck of the liberty ships.


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## Big Ed

You are a Master Building Modeler!
Great work. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Perhaps you mentioned it earlier, but I don't see it -- what material are you using to construct these buildings? And the glue? Did you actually create each window in the latest structure by piecing together the cross-bars or are they pre-finished windows you set in place of a cut-out?


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Another question - Do you have a fixture to use when gluing the sides to align them at 90 degrees?


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## Big Ed

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Perhaps you mentioned it earlier, but I don't see it -- what material are you using to construct these buildings? And the glue? Did you actually create each window in the latest structure by piecing together the cross-bars or are they pre-finished windows you set in place of a cut-out?


Post 37 here about the windows, I wondered the same thing. 
I think all styrene, it is mentioned towards the beginning of the thread.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=216789&postcount=37


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## Big Ed

Maybe it wasn't mentioned, and I assumed it was styrene, from all the styrene bags I see.


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## niehausiiw

Hey Michelle,

Your buildings came out beautifully. You should be extremely proud of what you accomplished.


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## michelle

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> Perhaps you mentioned it earlier, but I don't see it -- what material are you using to construct these buildings? And the glue? Did you actually create each window in the latest structure by piecing together the cross-bars or are they pre-finished windows you set in place of a cut-out?


Thank you 

The main part of the building is styrene sheets .015 thick with different size strips for the detailing. The glue is testors plastic cement #3502 it is a bottle with a brush applicator. The windows are made out of .020x.020 strips I glued one direction down across the window and then put the other direction on top of the first. For small scales it works fine I never tried it for large scales. 

For the 90 degree I use a square. What I do is get all 4 walls finished before putting the building together I use .040x.040 strips glued at the edges for a bigger glueing surface. I put them on the side walls so that the seam is not in the front of the building. Then glue all the walls together and put the square on the outside to square up the building. 

I am thinking that the next building I do I should take pictures of everything I do every piece I put in. I got the plans for the next building together. I was busy with other things and seem to miss a lot on the forum. Today I have work but I will get around to it. 


I was searching the city on googlemaps and found this house near fern rock station. This will be the next project. These windows will different from a factory.








I hope this answered your questions sorry I was away for so long.


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## michelle

Side of the house 









The sheet was 12" x 24" when new








I took a 35' scaled piece off to make a total of 8 walls








I marked the window placements for the height across the whole piece 








Then I measured the width and cut the general shape of the walls.
I got the windows placed and that gave me the width of them.


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## michelle

Marked out the window openings 









cut out the windows
















the .020 x .020 strips across the middle of the window to give the look of two windows.
The .040 x .040 strips for the edges of the wall


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## michelle

the .040 x .040 strips go along the bottom of side walls 









Then I glued the side walls to the front using the square to a line the bottom and the table to a line the side. once all the walls were glued together and before the glue sets use the square to adjust the building.
















Repeat for second part of the building once glue is set measure where it goes and glue it a long the line by eye. 








The window on the bottom of original picture still needs to be built that will also be 4 walls and glued into place. There is also some other buildings attached on the other side that has to be built. Once all of them are built and glued together then the trim work around the windows and along the roof edges can be put on.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

It's easy to see ow you created the "2-panes" in these windows. But how did you create the other styles that have many panes where the bars of styrene criss-cross? Was it necessary to cut and fit each cross-piece to ift perpendicular with the others?

And when squaring the walls for gluing -- have you ever considered a jig to hold the walls square? I once saw a suggestion to use Lego blocks. Sounds ridiculous at first, but when those are interconnected, they form a very perfect 90 degree angle.


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## michelle

Tomorrow I am going to work on the front window. Since the real building has plywood over the window and it looks big I was going to make several panes of windows for it. They are not cut to fit I don't even measure them out just make sure it is longer then the window opening. The only down side of making them this way I have to use dark colors for the windows. 

I did use legos before I got the square they do work until the kids take them back.


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## michelle

Sorry the pictures did not come out to clear. Step one place the strips all in one direction in this case they had to be longer then 5 scaled feet. they are placed on 2 scaled feet marks. 








There are three going across that are 9 scaled feet or greater I did not measure just eyed it. There is a top and bottom and one in the middle but the glue get put onto the first pieces that were put in. It does make a difference which way goes down first there has to be more on the bottom level whether it goes up and down or side to side the fewer on the back level. 

I got the idea from making pie. when you cut the strips for the top crust of the pie you start in one direction and then lay the other direction on top of the first. The same thing happens with the glue and pie crusts. The oven melts the crust together and the glue melts plastic. The first try I used too much glue and things got melted away. Just use what is on the brush and hit all the intersections that should work.































I hope I was able to help if not let me know and I will try again with the pictures.


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## michelle

I am not sure why the pictures did not show up on the last post. I also don't know why I did not think of this sooner. The pencils are the window pieces that is how they get put together just one row on top and 90 degrees from the bottom.


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## michelle

The latest update. It might be awhile before I can work on the building I scrapped the bottom of the glue to get the last section built. Delivery of more glue eta aug 30 - sept 5. 

































I think I am coming close to the real building. I still have that last add on to make before all the walls are up.


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## michelle

First day of school and it was a fight. They are off to school now and I have to go to work soon myself. 

My workshop and train room is getting a new ceiling and better lights but right now it has lamps and looks darker then before. The old ceiling is down and part of the new is up but none of the lights have been put back in. Plus I was told it would be this way until the next paycheck which is 11 more days from now. I guess this was my fault I wanted better lighting for the trains and the drop ceiling that was there had bent rods and very old looking. 

I am still waiting for a delivery of glue and more styrene sticks. Hopefully that will come today and I can get back to work on that building. I am thinking about restarting that module again the rock faces faded so much they look almost white again. I have to wait until I can see again so I might change my mind.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

For the window strips, how do you get the strips that are placed on top those running the opposite way to be glued to the inside wall? I would think there would be a gap at each end the same thickness as the opposing strips since they are laying on top of them. Do you cut a small piece of styrene to fill that gap at each end, then glue the whole thing in place. For photos, do you have a "macro" setting? If so, try turning it on before focusing and taking your shots.


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## michelle

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> For the window strips, how do you get the strips that are placed on top those running the opposite way to be glued to the inside wall? I would think there would be a gap at each end the same thickness as the opposing strips since they are laying on top of them. Do you cut a small piece of styrene to fill that gap at each end, then glue the whole thing in place. For photos, do you have a "macro" setting? If so, try turning it on before focusing and taking your shots.


there is a gap there it is not noticeable in n scale. For bigger scales you might be able to glue them small pieces in. The gap might not be noticeable in the bigger scales. I do use dark colors on the windows to hide stuff the only way to see gaps is with a magnifier and up close to the window. I know there are some modelers that need to be exact on copying but I just want it close enough to look good from a far. I am not the one to put the rivets on bridge steel or lines between bricks. 
I do not think I have a macro setting never heard of it. I do zoom in on the object.


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## michelle

I am still waiting for the glue. I called the place a couple of times and they were having difficulties on their end. One time they told me once it reached Pa and stop they are sending out another bottle. I am trying to find a new place to order stuff from. Wholesaletrains.com has a min. of $60 and all I need is glue. 

The last few days I have been working on the track plans for the rest of the layout and having difficulties with that. I want a point to point layout but need to able to turn steam engines around and space is limited so a turn table does not fit and look realistic in one module space. It seems I could either have a turn table or a yard but not both. 

The ceiling is still not up we were only able to afford a couple of rods with getting the bills paid. It is going to be a long time before I can get back to work on the trains. The lighting in here has been giving me head aches just using the computer.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Go as your resources allow. There is never any need to rush to finish. That is what makes this hobby fun, aways something to do. Take your time and do it right as my Dad always said.


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## michelle

It is tough to sit in the dark waiting for glue or light what ever comes first. For model railroading it is fine to take your time but remodeling a ceiling is a different story. He should have waited until he had enough money to buy the whole ceiling instead of a little per pay. 

I had a problem today, that cat that lives upstairs got into the train room and did some damage to the first module that I made. That cat is on its way to the pound I told my daughter that would happen if the cat got into the first floor or the store part of the building. I am not sure if I am able to fix it yet. It scratched up the foam and broke out one window of the MMM building plus took out 2 supports for the stations roof. Took out two freight cars missing pins to hold wheels on. Plus countless fences are ripped up. No damage to the tracks or the other buildings. I took off the rest of the buildings for the time being so I can see if I can fix what is damaged, but that would require the glue that I am still waiting for. Not a good day today.


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## michelle

This is the ceiling in the train room also computer room, This is were I have to wait for deliveries. I have 4 lamps in here with me









This is the damage that cat did.
scratches in the grass 








crack foundation from scratching probably 







fences messed up







trees that lost leaves







more scratches different section of grass







damage to the station which is also were the foundation was damaged















broken window of the MMM


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## Big Ed

The cat from Hell! :rippedhand:


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## michelle

The demon cat guarding the dirty dishes after dinner one night. By the way she was named Chessy after the railroad. Cats and model trains do not mix.


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## michelle

The reason the ceiling has to get replaced instead of adding a light over the layout. When hurricane Sandy hit Philly the wind got in and lifted the ceiling up and when it dropped back the nails pulled out and some rods bent. I have been complaining about the way it looked for a long time and did not know he would start without having all the materials needed. I thought a couple of days not months


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## RedManBlueState

It looks post-tornado. You should leave it that way and add a few overturned trailers.


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## Nuttin But Flyer

Get the cat a Godzilla suit and film it trashing around the layout, then sell the footage to Steven Spielberg for an upcoming film.


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## michelle

Thanks for the ideas but I would rather fix the buildings. 

Here are some yard designs I have been working on 

the reverse loop 








Problem with this is that I have a return track that cuts down number of main lines and number of trains to run








The one problem I have with this is the yard takes up too much area on the layout. that is 6' out of 10' before the wall the layout goes through


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## RedManBlueState

michelle said:


> The demon cat guarding the dirty dishes after dinner one night. By the way she was named Chessy after the railroad. Cats and model trains do not mix.
> 
> View attachment 30319


That's a cute kitty, and she would already be forgiven in my house. I'm VERY strict when it comes to my kids, but the furballs (3) walk all over me.


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## michelle

I don't have that weaken for the fur balls. She is gone to the pound after I found she left a going away present on the module. Time to start all over again and get my daughters a pet fish. My son is taking the module apart and we are going to start new. I am going back to my old ways of doing things using woodland scenics stuff. Risers and inclines and things like that. The plaster cloth works great.


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## Davidfd85

And that is why cats make great targets and put that first bullet 6 inches off their butt they make great moving targets.



I am kidding about shooting them


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## michelle

The glue I was waiting for came in today so now I get back to work on the buildings. I took apart all the work I did. I decided to forget the model idea and go for a whole layout. 

I want three main lines going into a yard. A point to point with a two levels. This is only part of the layout the most important part to get right the yard area.


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## Big Ed

The glue is here! :appl:
Man that took what a month! :smilie_daumenneg:

I would find a different place to buy it in the future. :smokin:
Or buy it in a gallon container. 

I like plaster cloth too, though I wish it was cheaper to buy.


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## Davidfd85

Hey Ed, I've been looking at plaster cast material (medical). But only finding it in 4 or 5 inch wide rolls and not really sure it that much cheaper either.


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## Big Ed

Davidfd85 said:


> Hey Ed, I've been looking at plaster cast material (medical). But only finding it in 4 or 5 inch wide rolls and not really sure it that much cheaper either.


I buy from this guy,
http://www.ebay.com/sch/rickatford/m.html?ssPageName=STRK:MEFSXS:MESOI&_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2654

4" or 5" is the norm?  The length might vary, check that in the listing too.
I have not bought any in a while, I see his price went up a bit since I last bought.
And sometime he has free shipping.

I have around 10 rolls left, I will shop around when I need some again.
How much did you find it for? Include shipping, I count that in the price per roll tally too.


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## michelle

I placed the order for the glue through amazon from Hammond Toys Hobbies Dolls. I usually use wholesaletrains.com but the min of $60 prevents me from getting just a bottle of glue. 

I am going to start another post for the layout since I have to start over on the layout part. I am going to wait until income tax refunds come in to build the layout. 

I told a cat lover I know about what happened on the layout and they think it was the foam that attracted the cat to scratch. If I used plaster she might have walled on it but not scratched it up. She did a lot of damage just walking on it. If it was plaster and newspaper there would have been holes in the scenery. 

For the station repairs I have to make new post no problem but the MMM building there is no way I can fix that window so the building will have to either be rebuilt or turned around with the loading docks on the back side of layout.


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## mnp13

RedManBlueState said:


> That's a cute kitty, and she would already be forgiven in my house. I'm VERY strict when it comes to my kids, but the furballs (3) walk all over me.


Yeah, I'm with you. I have a hard time blaming a dog or a cat for getting into something when it is the _people's_ responsibility to 

1. put things away 
2. keep them away from things using doors or gates
or
3. train them properly

If you do 1,2 or 3, you're usually fine. I can't see killing a pet because of failure to properly contain/manage.


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## michelle

I did end up taking Chessy to get declawed she is still with us just not climbing up wooden legs or scratching anything anymore. Since then I have not caught her on the layout. She also learned to stay off the dinning room table while we are eating something else she use to do. The one thing I do not understand she keeps coming up to me. It is like she knows I was against the idea of her moving in and she is trying to win me over.


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## Big Ed

Just watch out for nightime when you go to sleep...it might be sitting there breathing your breath away while you sleep. (you see that movie?) 

I guess since you had it declawed it is thinking whats next.
I better be good or they will chop my feet off.


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## spoil9

Hows progress with the layout?


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## michelle

Ed I don't watch much TV or movies can not sit still long enough I guess, I always find something that I want to do or have to do.

Right now the layout is back to flat pink foam I am waiting for an order to come in with some woodland scenic foam risers and some other stuff. I did start a new thread in the n-scale section. Made a mistake with the roundhouse walls. I am going to get the tracks down then start with the scenery at 2'-4' sections. I am still unsure of the yard area of the design and might not have a large yard but small industrial sidings to hold 5-10 cars. 

My goals for the layout is to have running sessions pick up the steel from one place and take it to a factory to be turned into something then take the product to either a warehouse or loading dock and return with empties. I am not sure a big yard would fit into the goals maybe a small interchange yard with a couple of tracks but nothing real big.


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## mnp13

I'm glad she's still with you. 

Why does she keep coming up to you? Because she's a cat. They gravitate towards the people who don't want them around! :laugh: (I have two...)


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## michelle

I was watching some layouts on youtube today with a pencil and paper to get some ideas. After I got it on paper I went to anyrail this is what I came up with. It will be complicated switching but 4 industries in a 4 foot area.


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## michelle

Finally some progress on the layout, and the rebuild from the cat attack.


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## wingnut163

bump

hope all is well?


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## michelle

All is well just been too broke to do any work on the layout. Thanks for remembering me.


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## Old Bill

Been reading your post, Great infomation here.
I truley enjoyed it, please keep it up.Question
did the ceiling and lighing ever get finish yet?


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## michelle

Old Bill said:


> Been reading your post, Great infomation here.
> I truley enjoyed it, please keep it up.Question
> did the ceiling and lighing ever get finish yet?


thanks. the ceiling is still down. We had the electric shut off in the store area. It's harder then I thought to get rid of a business. It's going to be a while before we get the zoning change to get residential rates from the electric company. Just about got back on our feet financially. Income tax return will give us what is needed to get the ceiling done. It's driving me crazy 6 people in a 2 bedroom apartment with the whole down stairs unable to live in.


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