# LIONEL 2025 /12 VOLT CAR BATTERY / CONTROLLER HAS ARRIVED



## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

this opens lots of possibilities, you can run your layout with full control with no AC power at all, the controller gives you full speed control of the locomotive and allows you to use the E unit for forward / neutral / reverse. works with both lionel and marx E units. the controller is $ 10 with free shipping, its small, simple 4 wire connection and it WORKS !!!
















https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-48...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

uh, unless i'm reading it wrong, it only allows you to do one train unit ??
and you still need an additional car battery ??


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

with a deep cycle marine battery you could run several controllers off the same battery.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

okay .. here the controller is 9.59 [us] plus 7.99 shipping, a total of $17.58...
add in a marine battery, say for $100 ?? and a charger, say $50 ..


What's an ordinary transformer worth?
shouldn't it be quite a bit less, plus no battery fumes or leaking acid to boot ??
so what's the advantage ??


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

the controller is 10 bucks with free shipping, the advantage is YOU DONT NEED AC POWER TO RUN THE TRAIN ! it was an INTERESTING EXPERIMENT.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

okay, that's fine  experiments are good to have


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Nice video and thanks for taking the time to demonstrate.
Your right the e-unit seems very quiet when you went thru its full cycle and curious as to why. is it because of the type of voltage being applied perhaps.


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

ac causes the buzzing in an e unit, with dc there is no buzz just a high pitched whine.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

BENZ TRAINZ said:


> ac causes the buzzing in an e unit, with dc there is no buzz just a high pitched whine.


That's becuase the E-units impedance is different for 60 cycle AC than it is for DC.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Early Lionel trains would use dry cell batteries as a fair number of houses were yet to have electricity. Thus the Lionel Rheostat to control voltage. And early AC transformers came with an adapter plug to use a ceiling light socket for power - houses with electric didn't have the plethora of plugs that modern houses have.


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## Railfan 8 (Jan 14, 2015)

If you want to wait for China shipping you can get them for under 6.50 on Ebay if you look a little.


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## ERIE610 (Jan 19, 2015)

Very interesting experiment Ben. Running ones trains off of a car battery when ac power is not available is a neat idea. All the trains you ran seemed to me that they ran smoother & quieter. Low speed operation was great as well. To further your experiment using a DC power source. I was wondering if the DC controller would work directly with the Battery Charger you use to charge the car battery? I am fairly sure that a car battery charger produces a voltage range of about 14.3-14.6 vdc. to overcome the car battery's static 12.6 vdc. Does any of the engines you tried have an electronic reverser board? Some of my Lionel & K-Line have a electronic reverser. These reverser boards have a built in bridge rectifier that converts the ac to dc then powers a can motor on each truck. I do not know if the reverser board would work with a dc input vs the normal ac input. I would be careful as to what engines I would put on a DC powered only track. I would be sure if an engine I have is DC compatible or not before trying it on any DC powered track. 

LATER


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## Dogdoc12 (Jan 17, 2020)

Just curious why???


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## batstang2000 (Oct 26, 2015)

Dogdoc12 said:


> Just curious why???


I think you answered your own question. --*Just curious*-- is the answer to why we do anything that hasn't been tried before.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

ERIE610 said:


> ... Low speed operation was great as well.
> LATER


That because the controller manages the duty cycle (on-off) of the DC supply (battery). When the controller electronics are "on", full voltage is applied and 0 V when "off". By managing the ratio of on-to-off, you get various speeds. That ratio is managed by the potentiometer on the controller. The motor responds better to full voltage for a short time than low voltage for a long time.

Years ago in HO's DC powered world, the mfg.'s called it "Pulse Power" for superior low speed operation.


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

Dogdoc12 said:


> Just curious why???


the obvious answer is your *not constrained to using AC transformers*. what if you wanted to put on a display where there was no power available, do you use a generator to power your AC transformers, OR would it be a simple expedient to power the layout with a BATTERY ? its not expensive or difficult, the controller was 10 bucks with free shipping.

i have NEVER seen anyone do this before, i really doubt you have either, there was no one to ask so a bit of empirical experimentation needed to be done. look at it this way, if your power goes out tomorrow for a week you can sit and look at your trains, i can run mine. with multiple controllers a single battery can power my entire layout.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

There was a guy on here years ago that ran a layout off a battery bank. It was in his camper. So he didnt have electrical hook ups but wanted to run trains. Also would be good in a zombie apocalypse for some to get there train fix! Lol.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

sjm9911 said:


> There was a guy on here years ago that ran a layout off a battery bank. It was in his camper. So he didnt have electrical hook ups but wanted to run trains. Also would be good in a zombie apocalypse for some to get there train fix! Lol.


Hi Chief. 

Or bring it to the beach to impress the woman.


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

If my power goes out for a week the first thing on my mind isn’t ok now I can run my trains off my car battery in the dark, it’s let’s fire up the generator so we have heat, water, and don’t lose everything in the refrigerators then I’ll run my trains the same way I do every other day with electricity. It’s a cool experiment but don’t really see it’s practical use. The other concern is the gasses that come out of the vents of a battery are extremely explosive and the acid vapors are very corrosive. This doesn’t seem like a good thing to do in the house. Just my option.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

BENZ TRAINZ said:


> i have NEVER seen anyone do this before, i really doubt you have either, there was no one to ask



actually I ran off a auto battery ten years ago or so ... waiting for my MRC controller to come in .. no fancy controller though, they weren't available that cheaply, just a large variable resistor ...
it's fine for just an experiment, but i didn't want acid in the train room, plus AC is quite a bit neater, 
didn't most of the real old stuff run off battery in the first place ?? before household AC became real common ??


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Cousin Eddie said:


> If my power goes out for a week the first thing on my mind isn’t ok now I can run my trains off my car battery in the dark, it’s let’s fire up the generator so we have heat, water, and don’t lose everything in the refrigerators then I’ll run my trains the same way I do every other day with electricity. It’s a cool experiment but don’t really se it’s practical use. The other concern is the gasses that come out of the vents of a battery are extremely explosive and the acid vapors are very corrosive. This doesn’t seem like a good thing to do in the house. Just my option.


Now you can take your train with you while camping...


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

MichaelE said:


> Cousin Eddie said:
> 
> 
> > If my power goes out for a week the first thing on my mind isn’t ok now I can run my trains off my car battery in the dark, it’s let’s fire up the generator so we have heat, water, and don’t lose everything in the refrigerators then I’ll run my trains the same way I do every other day with electricity. It’s a cool experiment but don’t really se it’s practical use. The other concern is the gasses that come out of the vents of a battery are extremely explosive and the acid vapors are very corrosive. This doesn’t seem like a good thing to do in the house. Just my option.
> ...


 lol my camper hauler has a 6500 watt Onan generator built into it so I can still run on electricity anywhere I go.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I meant real camping. Not a hotel room on wheels.


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## Cousin Eddie (Jan 4, 2019)

MichaelE said:


> I meant real camping. Not a hotel room on wheels.


 Oh lol. So you mean a tent to sleep in and one for a battery operated train layout? lol


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

wvgca said:


> ...
> didn't most of the real old stuff run off battery in the first place ?? before household AC became real common ??


My post #9 in this thread.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Millstonemike said:


> My post #9 in this thread.



sorry, missed that one


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## Matt Kramer (Jun 17, 2017)

Relax Ben, he might have used this:


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

Matt Kramer said:


> Relax Ben, he might have used this:



not the same, but close ...
a large variable resistor, wire wound, with a sliding pickup... i don't remember the part name or number offhand .. it was a long time ago .. on the first layout before i went DCC ..
just had to try it


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## Scotty (Oct 25, 2013)

There was a fellow at the last hamfest with the cheap controllers modified to run on battery. I assume he just removed the transformer. This hamfest is in Amish country and some of the groups allow this.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have removed the messages with profanity, cool your jets people!


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## eddiem (Dec 3, 2015)

*Here's an example*

I have a campervan, and sometimes run trains (like at York a few times, etc)










Often plugged in, but sometimes not!

Here's the catch:

"Modern" electronics don't get along well with the unit originally posted. Why?

Because the unit uses PWM (pulse width modulation,) which is not very compatible with the boards in electronic engines. 

The electronic engines like a nice smooth DC that they get from rectified track AC, and PWM DC is essentially a high speed (messy) chopped up DC that messes with the boards in the engines.

Good example - lots of people have issues using a DCS loco with a CW80... because it outputs messy DC! (AC... corrected! I knew that...)

But for non-electronic engines, it works perfectly!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, the CW-80 doesn't put out DC at all! However, it does put out a very messy AC waveform! Here's the CW-80 at half-throttle and full-throttle, that ugly waveform drives many engines nuts!


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## eddiem (Dec 3, 2015)

At out train club, I ran our outdoor G scale trains with exactly the PWM controller described and a 18650 battery pack I put together... thinking about putting the controller and battery pack in a boxcar, setting the speed, and letting it run! Cheap, dead rail running.

Lots of time available lately ... maybe I could try it with a conventional O loco... like a Bang


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