# How I LED light my passenger cars... extremely cheaply



## L0stS0ul

I've tried using store bought LED strips (25$ a pop here in VA) which are far to expensive to light more than one car. I have a lot of passenger cars now in need of a lighting upgrade so that's out of the question. Recently, in another area of the forum, someone posted a link to some LED strip lights that looked perfect for passenger cars. Lots of different colors too if you wanted to do some other effects. With the help of GunrunnerJohn I found all of the parts I needed to upgrade my cars really cheaply so I thought I would share. This post will have a ton of pictures.

Time: 15-30 minutes. It took me 30 minutes while stopping to take pictures.

Parts you need for this:

A Passenger car that needs lighting
Soldering Iron and Solder
Some stranded 24 gauge wire (speaker wire)
I like to use heat shrink and always have a ton of sizes on hand. I get mine at home depot for a few bucks
A spool of LED lights from Amazon (one spool will light 15+ cars) [ 16.4 Feet (5 Meter) Flexible LED Light Strip with 300xSMD3528 and Adhesive Back, 12 Volt, Warm White 3100K ] 
A package of resistors to reduce brightness. This one came in a set of 100 for $5 shipped. not to bad [ 470 Ohm Resistors, 1/4 Watt, 5% tolerance ]
Some diodes to help protect the led strip from reverse current [ 1N4001 Molded Plastic Case Rectifier Diodes 50V 1A ]
And a few capacitors to keep the LED's from flickering. [ 470µF 35V ] 

For about $25 I can light 15+ cars with 12 inch strips. 

Now onto what we do with all of these parts. Here's what's all needed to light one car. 1 resistor, 1 diode, 1 capacitor, 1 LED strip of 4 sections, some wire, and beer.









Here's what the car looked like before. Not too bad but clearly 2 light points very visible and they flickered a TON especially when going over switches and stuff. 









Here's the first look with the top off. This car has 2 pickup rollers and two grounds feeding 2 separate lights. This will work out well and help us with the wiring a bit. 









The first thing I'm going to do is remove the old lights, in this case 4 screws from the bottom, and cut the positive and negative wires to each light. 









Next I need some lights from the LED spool that is 4 sections long. For larger cars you can use more sections without changing anything. Simply cut it with scissors on the defined cut line. 









First step is to add some solder to the exposed leads on one end of the LED strip. 









Next I take a 4 -5 inch section of 24 gauge wire and attach it to the LED strip. Make sure you remember positive and negative and then heat shrink the connection points. We are done with the LED strip for a while









Next we have to do the complicated part. I'll separate this out into a few steps and it really helps to have some "helping hands" for this as you are connecting 3 parts together in one go. Essentially we are creating this: 

Track Positive Power -> Diode - capacitor - resistor -> LED strip +

I start with the capacitor and take the positive side, cut it down, and tin it. I then cut down either side of the resistor (does not matter) and the banded side of the diode. Make sure cut parts are tinned on the diode and resistor as well. 

Right before soldering the helping hands look like this:









Now I solder the parts together. Here is another look after soldering. 









I like to keep everything as clean as possible so I added some heat shrink. Here's how that looked. Once the heat shrink is on we are ready to attach all of this to the car.









First step in connecting all of this is to connect one of the positive wires from the car to the diode. In my case I used the existing wires and only had to connect one and let the other one dangle. Then connect one of the ground wires from the car to the negative end of the capacitor and heat shrink it all.









Next we connect the positive wire of the LED strip to the resistor. The negative lead from the LED strip goes to the other ground









The next part is really easy. Pull back the adhesive covering from the LED strip and attach to the inside of the roof of the car. 









Finally we test it. I would recommend trying it before putting the car back together but I've done quite a few of these now I just threw it together and tested.









Now you will have a nice flicker free passenger car with even lighting for just a few bucks. This can be customized with different resistors to adjust brightness of the lighting as well. This setup works great for me.


----------



## PatKn

LOSO,
Very well done your explanation was clear and concise and the pictures were great aids. I'm sure many forum members will now be able to make the upgrade to their own cars. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Dave Sams

:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:

:smilie_daumenpos:


And the crowd goes wild!

Great post :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I've done similar things, but you make it look too easy.

A few thoughts, you can get the parts cheaper on ebay if you don't mind waiting a few weeks. My to do list is so long, I can wait. You might want to put the component values in your post and mention your LED strip is 12v.

From my view, you can put too many lights in a car or structure. I prefer subtle lighting.

I'm going to order some capacitors from my favorite Chinese vendor. It will soon be time to start on the layout again.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Thanks  

The nice thing about this setup, and this LED strip, is it's extremely easy to customize. If you want fewer lights in the car you can easily use just 2 led sections, cut in half, and use a wire between them to separate and place where you want keeping everything else the same. 

I'll update the post with the component values used. I linked to the exact items used on amazon and digikey. I know you can find them cheaper elsewhere but I tend to be extremely impatient and I usually have 10 projects going on at any given time so when I need something I need it now and Amazon always delivers :smokin: The most expensive item on this list is the capacitor so if you can find that cheaper elsewhere do it.


----------



## 86TA355SR

Certainly a cost effective way to upgrade a lot of passenger cars.

Great work, thanks for sharing with all of us. I know of at least one person this will help!


----------



## BWA

Great article, but, I have one question, can this be done with Hot Chocolate instead of beer, or, do I risk shorting something out doing this???????


----------



## Yellowstone Special

What a great step-by-step "how to" post, and easy to follow with pictures.

Many thanks! :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## Ricky Tanner

Well done! I've got dozens of passenger cars that need this upgrade! Thanks!:appl:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Excellent post, and great pictures.

I will suggest one improvement to the lighting. For an additional small cost, you can add a regulator that will keep the light level constant for varying track power.


----------



## MOVL

Good post. I have many cars that will eventually be converted to LED lighting. Already picked up the LED spool a while ago.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Here's a simple circuit that will allow you to power the LED lighting, has DCS signal protection, and provides for constant intensity and you can tune the light level to whatever you like.


----------



## Guest

L0stS0ul, excellent tutorial, thanks for posting!


----------



## L0stS0ul

Nice idea John. I had not thought of using a voltage regulator with this. It would make things more consistent at low voltages when in conventional mode. In your diagram what is the 22uh L1 component? I figured out all of the other parts but not sure what that is or what it's used for. 

So far I've not noticed any issues running the current setup described in the first post on my track with DCS or conventional.

I'm glad you all like it. This setup is working really well for me and most important it's cheap


----------



## L0stS0ul

BWA said:


> Great article, but, I have one question, can this be done with Hot Chocolate instead of beer, or, do I risk shorting something out doing this???????


Any beverage of choice will work.


----------



## Patrick1544

Thanks for the info and instruction photos.


----------



## Bob Phillips

GRJ will Hennings have car LED light kits at york?


----------



## Pingman

With the benefit of gunrunnerjohn's expertise, I was able to convert 15 PW 2500 series 15" aluminum passenger cars to LED lighting thereby greatly reducing the current necessary to light the cars and to provide even lighting throughout each car and, perhaps more importantly, eliminating the "hotspot" lighting and flicker typical of the incandescent OEM lighting.

Also, having followed many similar threads on OGR, the reality is that not all passenger cars can be converted with a "one size fits all" solution. For example, disassembling and reassembling a PW aluminum passenger car is different from the example LOstSoul shows which necessitates some difference in how the p/u rollers are wired. 

Likewise, passenger cars with interiors may require adjustments in where the electronic components are located compared to those cars that don't have interiors.

None of these differences are particularly difficult to resolve and for me, the results are well worth the very modest expense and time involved in making the conversion.

This is an excellent thread--thanks to LOstSoul for taking the time to supply photos and descriptions of his process; and, to gunrunnerjohn for his expertise, as well.


----------



## Guest

Very informative. Wonderful tutorial. :thumbsup:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Bob Phillips said:


> GRJ will Hennings have car LED light kits at york?


Yep, and I'm even packing extras because we ran out last spring.


----------



## 86TA355SR

Pingman said:


> This is an excellent thread--thanks to LOstSoul for taking the time to supply photos and descriptions of his process; and, to gunrunnerjohn for his expertise, as well.


I couldn't agree more. This is the easiest 'how to ' LED thread I've ever read. 

With this thread, even an electrically challenged guy like me can do this. Can't wait to start converting cars.


----------



## Bob Phillips

Good to hear I need a few. see you Thursday.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Here's a little video of the result. The camera makes it look a lot brighter than it really is. The caboose is the brightest thing on the layout. I'm using full DCS system with these cars. Not a flicker in sight as they go over the switches. Those always made these cars flicker like crazy.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Lookin' good!


----------



## Guest

That is exactly the effect I'm aiming for, great job!


----------



## MOVL

This post is a good example of the best part of the hobby...showing each other how to do something and learning from each other.


----------



## L0stS0ul

*Upgrading a Williams PRR Madison Car*

I recently purchased some used Williams 2502 Pennsylvania Railroad Madison Cars from the early 1990s for my holiday train. I knew these would be arriving pretty rough and was expecting to have to upgrade the lighting to be close to the MTH madison cars I've already got. Paint wise these are quite nice and are a pretty close match to the MTH Madison cars I already had. They should make a nice 7-8 car setup once fixed up. They are a little longer and shorter than the MTH but from a distance you wouldn't know. While these cars look pretty good they eat a ton of current for two little bulbs in each car and flicker really badly.









These cars are much simpler than the previous cars I upgraded and probably more similar to some postwar models. The base plate is the ground for these cars and one wire from each pickup roller goes directly to a light bulb. No redundancy here.

























Since I will be upgrading a bunch of cars at once I created 4 of the resistor/diode/capacitor setup from the original post. No difference there. Only 4 because I'm not planning on using the observation car. I like the MTH one more.

















Now the main part... Upgrading the car. The first thing I did was disconnect the existing bulbs from the pickup rollers and solder on some new wires. Once soldered I fed the wires thru the body and screwed the trucks back on. 









Next I prepared the LED light strip 5 sections long and attached it to the roof of the car just like in the original post. 









Next we solder up the connections as shown in the picture below. I did sand off the paint where I solder the negative LED wire and capacitor. 









Finally we test it out. Looks great. I will probably create something to cover the wire access holes in the baseplate as there is some light leakage below the car but other than that it works awesome and gives a really nice even hue that matches my stock MTH cars pretty well. 









Finally a really quick video of it as that shows how much light it puts out the best. It is the third lit car and I focus on it as it passes. I have it surrounded by two of the williams cars with original lighting. Those things are flicker happy. Now it's nice and clean.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks good!  What I do is cover the holes with Ducttape after folding the tab down.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I ended up using electrical tape. I had this whole elaborate plastic box thing envisioned in my head but when I saw the tape I just thought DUH.  I also secured the wires some with it while I was at at. Now to finish up the other 3. Should go a lot quicker now that I've done the one.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The next ones always go a lot quicker.


----------



## PatKn

Looks really. Good. I like the old Williams cars with painted people. I have a 
Northfolk and Western streamlined set like that behind my Railking J. You have me thinking of updating with LEDs now.


----------



## L0stS0ul

It's well worth it just for the current drop benefit. The nice even lighting is also nice. I didn't think I would care for the painted figures but it's growing on me.


----------



## Pingman

L0stS0ul said:


> It's well worth it just for the current drop benefit. The nice even lighting is also nice. I didn't think I would care for the painted figures but it's growing on me.


I agree. I was never a fan of the painted figures, but getting rid of the "hotspot" lighting of the two incandescent bulbs and replacing them with the even, LED lighting, is a major improvement--well done, sir.


----------



## carinofranco

I just noticed the Uniontown car. That's my home town in Pa! cool


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## L0stS0ul

I finally finished up wiring the Williams cars. I ended up doing all 5 and will be using them in a set with the Christmas Train. One thing that was asked about earlier was using sections of lights in various areas. On the combo car and baggage car I did just that. On the observation car I actually used 7 sections of LED. One more than the other cars to get a nice light out the back. The big plus is the cars don't get hot at all anymore. At the constant 18 volts for the MTH remote commander the original lighting was nearly melting the roofs. 






The picture below is of the combo car. I made sure I had a strip of 4 sections over the windows and one section over the front area. I attached them using some 24 gauge wire. The same wire I use for the whole setup. On the baggage car I only used 2 sections. One above each opening. No other change to the wiring. . As you can see this works well with lots of different setups depending on how you like it.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'm lazy, and for combo or baggage cars, I just use a full strip end-to-end.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I was going to just do that but someone had asked so I thought I would give it a try and see if I could do it easily. Wasn't too hard to add the wires between. TBH though, if I were to do it again, I'd just use the strip like you do :worshippy:


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I split the strips for dome cars and bi-level cars, but the lazy kicks in for stuff that I can just use one strip for.


----------



## L0stS0ul

*A little upgrade for DCS users*

If you are a DCS user like me I've learned, from GunrunnerJohn, that by adding a choke to the circuit DCS becomes much happier. With all 5 of my williams cars on the layout I have seen issues with commands getting to my engines in DCS that removing the cars resolves. So I thought I would give his suggestion a try and sure enough, after adding the choke, no issues.

Here is the new component I purchased on digikey:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/epcos-tdk/B78108S1223K/495-5557-1-ND/4245839

And... here is what I did to my williams cars:

Step 1: 
open up the cars and cut the power leads to the current circuit 









Step 2:
Solder the two power leads from the collectors together









Step 3:
Solder the choke onto the power leads. It's like a resistor so don't worry about polarity









Step 4:
Solder the other end of the choke to the existing circuit. 









I will be making this modification to all of the williams cars. The first one was really easy to do :smilie_daumenpos:






I will also be upgrading my MTH 60 foot passenger cars, all 10 of them, to LED lighting soon. With 18v from the z-1000 bricks the stock bulbs have been melting the plastic around them in all of my cars. It looks like they will be an easy upgrade.


----------



## ogaugeguy

Okay, John, for those of us who know NADA about regulators, circuits and all things electrical and electronic but want to try this upgrade, would you please list a part number and manufacturer for regulator you mentioned and where it can be purchased. Would you also show on one of the assembly photos EXACTLY where the regulator should be added and attached? Thanks.


----------



## Todd Lopes

Fantastic work and results. Congratulations. LED is sure the way to go to conserve amps. I'm glad MTH and Lionel are delivering their new passenger car lighting as LED.


----------



## Laidoffsick

Excellent tutorial... even I could figure it out and all I know about electrical stuff is that the soldering iron burns 

I just use a full strip for the baggage cars now, but when I first did them I cut 2 short pieces for above each door. Extra step not required.










and for the dome I cur 4 pieces of light strip so I can still get the dome interior out. 1 piece gets stuck to the dome glass itself, fits perfect. 1 piece at each end of the car, and 1 piece under the dome interior floor


----------



## Guest

Very interesting and informative project.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The regulator I've been talking about is my LED regulator package that's sold through Henning's Trains. 

*This is the regulator package and schematic.*


----------



## T-Man

Weird I cannot view his images only the parts in the begining.


----------



## Patrick1544

Something has happened to the images. On my end, they are not an active URL. Cannot click them. Had this happen on other threads here, also. Any changes in the way JPEG's are delivered?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The images are fixed, but any that are uploaded yesterday will have to be uploaded again.


----------



## Laidoffsick

You can even slather them in paint and they still work


----------



## L0stS0ul

I've been converting a lot of cars recently and while the blob works well it is proving difficult to hide in some of the newer passenger cars. I'm hoping someone that knows more than me will tell me if I'm royally screwing up here but I'm trying to make this more car friendly.

About a year ago I purchased, for way to much money, one of these things.









I think it was around $25 at my LHS and I've never liked the light that it puts out. It's really dim and looks really florescent. 

I'm not sure what that thing with the S80 on it is. Maybe a regulator? I dunno. There is a resistor on the negative lead which seems strange to me. The interesting thing was where the capacitor is. My LED strips have 2 ends as well and putting the CAP there would be very easy and not only make building these things faster but neater as well. So I gave it a try

So now the positive lead gets the choke -> diode -> resistor -> LED positive









The cap gets put on the other end









Now it's a lot more compact and easier to fit into tight spaces (especially with a slightly smaller 25v cap instead of the 35v one)









The MTH car I was converting proved to be interesting. It's a 60 foot madison car and the wiring was really poorly soldered. I had to redo it all. Once I cleaned it all up though it worked awesome with this setup and no flicker on my switches where things were flickering with the stock setup. 









All that said, the CAP doesn't seem to keep the lighting as bright as it does for as long when it's between the diode and the resistor but it does still keep the LED's lit pretty good and reduces flicker. 

Before I go and do a ton of these... I'm not doing something totally wrong here am I? :goofball: It seems to work


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The reason the cap isn't as effective with the current placement is it's across the LED's, so it's only being charged to roughly 12 volts. When it's on the other side of the resistor, it gets charged to a higher voltage, so there's lots more headroom to discharge while keeping the LED's on.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Ahh that makes sense. Thanks GRJ. This should work for me then. I don't need them to stay lit forever. It's definitely working for the short interruptions I get going over switches and stuff so a nice tradeoff for ease of installation.


----------



## c.midland

I decided to make life easier, and ordered a couple pairs of GRJ's led boards. They're smaller than a 9v battery, which will work well with my application.
I wonder if it's possible to run a tether between passenger cars and use only one board/ homemade circuit to power LED's in multiple passenger cars?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I can probably answer the tether question.  One of my lighting modules will power a 21" passenger car light strip fairly bright. If you run them at a lower intensity, you may get two passenger cars lit with one. 

The problem is that in order to make it less likely to fry the LED's, I use a constant current circuit on the board, so the most you can get out of it is around 45ma. That lights up one of the LED strips in the typical passenger car way brighter than I want mine to be, I normally run the lights on around 20-25ma for a single 18" car.


----------



## L0stS0ul

GRJ has been awesome and his experience invaluable to helping me figure things out. I wish I had the funds to buy enough of his modules to light my cars but I don't. I have to pick and choose my purchases. I would not hesitate to buy them if I could tho. His stuff and support is first rate. 

That said I'm getting pretty quick with these now. I can solder up a light strip as shown in the last image post in about 10 minutes and I'm sure I'll get even faster. I've got a little assembly line going and each setup costs me a few bucks. It has to when I have about 20 cars to fix. To be honest it's taking me longer to modify the cars and fix the problems with them than to install the lights these days.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

When I install lighting, most of the time is in taking the car apart and then putting it back together. Some of the K-Line cars are a real PITA they way they come apart.


----------



## balidas

Nice thread! I've got some unlit prewar Marx that I'd like to light up, and upgrade all my lighted pre & post war passenger cars. In another thread GunrunnerJohn mentioned using a tether between cars. That's an idea that I'm interested in pursuing for some of my cars.

Thanx for the info.


----------



## ogaugeguy

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Excellent post, and great pictures.
> 
> I will suggest one improvement to the lighting. For an additional small cost, you can add a regulator that will keep the light level constant for varying track power.


:thumbsup: GRJ, to "unconfuse me," would you be so kind as to list a source and part number for the regulator you mention and also using his photo show exactly where the regulator is placed? Thanks


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You can either get the complete solderless kit: 20100 Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit, or you can buy just the regulator boards and add your own LED strips: 20110 LED Lighting Regulator, 2 Pcs.. You attach the regulator with double-sided foam tape and connect it to track power and the LED strip. Use the small pot to adjust the intensity of the lighting and you're done.

This is the lighting module.









Here's a car with the lighting installed. Note that this is using an earlier version of the lighting regulator, but the later one shown above is used the same way.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I've been reading a lot about OshPark lately and it's been coming up in conversation with some coworkers that I finally decided to see if I could figure out how to layout a board. This lighting circuit is really simple and at $4 for 3 prototype boards shipped it's worth it even if it's completely wrong the first time. After about 30 minutes of learning Eagle CAD and watching tutorials I was able to come up with this board









I decided to go with thru hole components for this board because I have a metric ton of them still. I bet I could get it really small if I use surface components. That'll probably be my next test after messing with this. I've been reading about this frying pan method of soldering surface mount components to these boards and it looks really cool and interesting. 

Already got word that the board is due to be manufactured Sunday so I should have it next week 

It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that John's board does but it should do what I need it to do.


----------



## santafealltheway

Gotta have the beer. Cant solder without it! haha


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Let's see the schematic, don't hold out on us! 

I just got several orders from OSH Park, my Locomotive Motion Sensor that I've mentioned before, and a trial of my ground light modules that you glue under the walkways. These are the .032" thick boards with the 2oz copper. They'll be my standard for most stuff, losing the double thickness can't be a bad thing, I like them as thin as possible. A double bonus is the 2oz copper allows me thinner traces for the same current capability.

I like the fact that I can cut slots so that I don't have to saw my little ground light modules apart, that saves a ton of time.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Always gotta have a beer.


----------



## L0stS0ul

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Let's see the schematic, don't hold out on us!


Very impressive, I see you have found oshpark as well  Please don't be too hard on me. This is my first try lol. It'll be amazing if it works. I believe I found all of the right component sizes and traced everything out correctly. The hardest part is finding the right components to layout and that's apparently all about finding the right libraries. If only digikey had a library of their own  I found this site which did help some as you could key in digikey part numbers and get close

http://www.schematicpal.com/

Only thing I couldn't figure out how to do, and oshpark warned me about it, is the silkscreen on the back so I just left it blank. No real tutorials I could find on how to do that.


----------



## Lee Willis

Thank you. I copied this to save, it is so good. I have some cabooses I want to do this too.


----------



## Spence

Very interesting post. I missed this one originally.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I just noticed that Amazon does not have one of the parts on the list in the original post anymore. I did find an alternate source. Here is the part list I have been using for a while and will use in the board above.


If you are a MTH DCS user you need to add a choke to the circuit. Probably not needed otherwise. This is L1 in the board above. This filters the signal and makes sure things don't interfere with DCS. [22µH Unshielded Wirewound Inductor 560mA]

You need a diode to convert from ac to dc before you put the capacitor in. I use these. [ 1N4001 Molded Plastic Case Rectifier Diodes 50V 1A ]

 Capacitors to keep the LED's from flickering. I'm now useing 470µF 25V which are a smaller than the 35V version and perform the same.[ 470µF 25V ]

Amazon sells a package of 100 470ohm resistors. I like the amount of lighting this generates in my cars. You can tweak this value for whatever you are looking for. That'll light a lot of stuff [470 Ohm Resistors, 1/4 W, 5%]

For the LED lights I use this spool from Amazon. One spool will light a lot of cars/cabooses/whatever you are lighting. [ 16.4 Feet (5 Meter) Flexible LED Light Strip with 300xSMD3528 and Adhesive Back, 12 Volt, Warm White 3100K ]

Not a huge parts list and for about $30 bucks you can light a lot of things just manually putting the circuit together like I've been doing. I've used anywhere from 1 section of the LED spool to 5 sections without issue using this circuit. I don't have any passenger cars larger to put more sections but it should work for quite a few. The board should make things cleaner and quicker to install. Now to find some surface mount versions of these things and see how small I can make the board


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I don't know how you do the layout on Eagle, but for DipTrace, putting components and silkscreen on the back side is as simple as clicking on the top drop-down and picking the other side. OTOH, some of my stuff doesn't have a silk screen on the back, and they just notify you of the fact. You can also simply delete the back silkscreen from the Gerber files and they won't warn you.

For folks buying parts in quantity, don't leave out Digikey. For instance, those resistors you specify for $6.16 on Amazon are $1.62 for 100 at Digikey: CF14JT470R at Digikey. 

The LED reels I typically get from overseas sources, and I don't ever pay more than $5/roll. 5M 500CM Warm White 3528 SMD LED Strip Lights 300 leds, $3.12 + .99 shipping. If you buy multiple reels, the additional ones are shipped free.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I'll have to check out DipTrace. Eagle was pretty easy to do the schematic and then transfer that to the board for layout. Hit a button and it auto traces and can even fix up automatically the "ratsnest" for you. Kinda nice but yeah, I couldn't figure out how to change the silkscreen for the back. 

Good call on the resistors at digikey, I think I bought off amazon once and just reupped it  You can get the diodes cheaper too

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/micro-commercial-co/1N4001-TP/1N4001-TPMSCT-ND/773688

100 for $6 instead of 25 for $6

I'll update the list


----------



## L0stS0ul

I tell ya, this board layout stuff can be addicting. I thought I would see how it would look less as a square and more like a rectangle. I also wanted to see how much space I could save with surface components. I found what I think are direct replacements. The capacitor really dictates the width if doing a long ways board. For that size you really pack a lot onto your lighting board John.

We'll see how I do with these boards first if I dip my toes into surface mounting. I went ahead and ordered the through hole version of the long one as well and went with standard shipping. Wanted to see if it's worth the $5 buck to get it faster


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

My spacing is not that amazing, I only have six components to fit on, it could probably be a bit smaller if I were so inclined. I went with all the components on one side as that is cheaper for the assembly house, and it also makes mounting them easy, double-sided foam tape, job done!  Looks to be about the same size as yours.

OK, so yours is a bit larger, you'll get the hang of laying them out after a spell. There are pitfalls, but with OSH Park, it's cheap to screw up on a prototype.  You use a ton of space for the connections, I just left enough space for connectors if you choose to put them there, or just solder the wires to the board, which is what I normally do.


----------



## c.midland

Hope I'm not taking this off-topic, but I'm sure glad you guy's do this.

I've purchased 4 of GRJ's led boards, and need at least 4 more. Last week I started "playing" with them, and they work nicely, and fit perfectly into a LaBelle passenger car roof, with the wiring routed through a straw in the "bathroom". 

My hobby is building scenery, building kits, kitbashing, and scratchbuilding. It isn't electrical. That's work to me. It's nice to have you folks making it easier. 

Thanks for posting step-by-step instructions, and offering products and information for people like me. I've read this thread since the beginning and have seen it evolve into something even I could do, though I don't want to.


----------



## Panther

Instead of the fixed resistor, why not install a Circuit Board mount potentiometer to adjust the lighting as wanted ?

Dan


----------



## L0stS0ul

That's a great suggestion. I'll have to look into that. I'm also looking at some options for 2 pin connectors instead of soldering wires directly to the board. I don't want it to get too expensive though. Right now it's less than $5 with components for 1 board.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, for a couple more bucks, you can have one ready-made with an intensity pot installed. 

You can get many 2-pin connectors on .1" centers, the JST EH series of connectors comes to mind, they're the Lionel TMCC standard sized connector.


----------



## L0stS0ul

The JST EH connectors were the ones I was looking at. That would add 12 cents to each board. My bill of materials is at $2.40 per board without the LED strip. Might even come down a bit when I order larger numbers of boards. I want to keep it under $3 per board. Of course I don't count my time in any of that  

I still have about 20 cars to LED light so the goal here is to do it cheaply.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Sounds about right for the BOM. The board and the cap are most of the money, the resistors and diode are dirt cheap.  When you sell these by the hundreds, you have to start considering your time in the equation.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I'm not planning on selling these  This has been a really fun project. I don't have an EE background (programmer) so learning all this stuff has been amazing. Can't thank you enough for all of the help!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

If I can't sell you light regulators, at least I can help light the cars in some way.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

How's this for a smaller version of the board? Roughly 1/4 of a square inch, should reduce the board costs. I also used a thru-hole cap as that was 47 cents instead of 91 cents for the SMT version.

Here's the cap I used: ECA-1VM471

Gerber files are attached.

OSH Park likes it, and they want $1.30 for three boards.


----------



## L0stS0ul

That is extremely tiny  I like it a lot. See I had not even thought about putting things on the back.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That's how you make things small.


----------



## KarenORichmond

Would really like to change the lights on my passenger cars but I honestly do not understand these electrical components at all. So any way to "dummy down" this or something so I can try this? and I have never soldered anything


----------



## L0stS0ul

The first page of the thread is about as simple as I know how to describe it. There is also Gunrunner Johns led lighting circuit that he sells. Then you don't have to solder much or worry about the components


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

20100 Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit, it has all the components to light two passenger cars. It's designed to be a solderless kit.


----------



## L0stS0ul

My prototype boards are due to be in next week. I'm getting really excited and I can't wait to play with them and see if they even work . I think I have decided to keep these as simple as possible and see how small I can get it. Turns out pretty small and about a buck cheaper for 3. If the prototype works out then I'll probably order about 20 of these as I have that many cars to light and I'll want to replace the circuit I put in the ones I've already done with these as well. With the components the boards come to about a $1.55 ordering small quantities of components with the new design fab'd by OshPark. 

If it works I'll post the brd file that can be submitted directly to oshpark if someone else wants to give it a try.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Cool. I just got a few different boards in from OSH Park, I have a flickering firebox mod that looks really great, so I'm creating a production sample to see how it's received. I also build myself a little LM78xxT power module as I'm frequently needing some DC power from track voltage, and the little TO-92 regulators don't always have the oomph to supply 40-50ma, they overheat. I also have a prototype of a 9V battery replacement using a SuperCap with track power, it'll be used for TMCC or conventional RailSounds to replace the Alkaline 9V battery.


----------



## Spence

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Cool. I just got a few different boards in from OSH Park, I have a flickering firebox mod that looks really great, so I'm creating a production sample to see how it's received. I also build myself a little LM78xxT power module as I'm frequently needing some DC power from track voltage, and the little TO-92 regulators don't always have the oomph to supply 40-50ma, they overheat. I also have a prototype of a 9V battery replacement using a SuperCap with track power, it'll be used for TMCC or conventional RailSounds to replace the Alkaline 9V battery.


Jeez GRJ; is there anything you can't do or create electrically??? I have been extremely impressed with your knowledge & willingness to share it with us over the years. :thumbsup::thumbsup: Thank you


----------



## L0stS0ul

It's so easy to do this stuff now and actually get a product in your hands. I saw a few boards a friend of mine did and I was really impressed. Cutouts were a little rough but for the price quite nice. I still can't believe how cheap it is plus it's a lot of fun. 

Hard part is gaining the knowledge to figure out how to do these circuits. Without GRJ's help I would not have even tried this. Thank you


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Spence said:


> Jeez GRJ; is there anything you can't do or create electrically??? I have been extremely impressed with your knowledge & willingness to share it with us over the years. :thumbsup::thumbsup: Thank you


Thanks Spence.  There are tons of things I'm sure I have no idea how to do electrically, but I do manage to do a few things.


----------



## KarenORichmond

gunrunnerjohn said:


> 20100 Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit, it has all the components to light two passenger cars. It's designed to be a solderless kit.


which makes it $17 per car. 

so I think I am going to coerce my son to help with this project. I still think that if he does one with me then I can probably handle it from there (maybe)


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

If you have electrical know-how and can solder, you can assemble LED strip lighting for passenger cars very cheaply, I've posted several threads on the topic. Before I did my lighting regulator module, I used to whack the components together by hand and the whole cost for a car was just $2-3. However, a vast majority of folks don't want to do that much soldering and tinkering to get the intensity of the lighting right, thus the LED regulator was born. Obviously, now that I give myself a discount on the lighting regulators, I use those in my cars, makes the job very easy.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I wish I could update the first post with the current parts list. I order everything I need for manually creating it from digikey now except for the LED's. Here is the part list which I will also use in the board. 


*OPTIONAL FOR DCS USERS:* If you are a MTH DCS user you need to add a choke to the circuit. Probably not needed otherwise. This is L1 in the board above. This filters the signal and makes sure things don't interfere with DCS. [22µH Unshielded Wirewound Inductor 560mA]
You need a diode to convert from ac to dc before you put the capacitor in. I use these. [ 1N4001 Molded Plastic Case Rectifier Diodes 50V 1A ]
Capacitors to keep the LED's from flickering. I'm now useing 470µF 25V which are a smaller than the 35V version. 25V has been working fine for me but you can also get 35V [ 470µF 25V ]
Resistors for controlling lighting level. The 470 Ohm is where I like it for my lighting. [470 Ohm Resistors, 1/4 W, 5%]
For the LED lights I use this spool from Amazon. One spool will light a lot of cars/cabooses/whatever you are lighting. You can get it cheaper on ebay but I avoid ebay. [ 16.4 Feet (5 Meter) Flexible LED Light Strip with 300xSMD3528 and Adhesive Back, 12 Volt, Warm White 3100K ]

Using these components you can follow the first page of this thread to build the circuit. It's the same schematic as above for the circuit board I'm building.

Buying enough components to light 20 cars will cost all of $1.11 per car for DCS compatibility or $0.36 per car if you don't need DCS. The inductor is expensive. One LED spool should be able to do 30+ 15 inch passenger cars.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

If you want to "roll your own", I'd recommend this circuit. It will allow you to tune the intensity of the lights with a single resistor, and it also provides regulation so the light intensity doesn't change with track voltage. The parts required should be pretty cheap, even cheaper if you buy them on eBay. 

I'd start with a 50 ohm resistor for 25ma and see how you like the intensity. Lower is brighter, higher is dimmer.


----------



## L0stS0ul

My first prototype boards came in. Wow, when I first saw them I was like no way this is going to work. I thought they were way to small. I test fitted all of the components and it was a perfect fit. 

Now to solder one of these guys up and check it out. If it all passes I'll be ordering 20 of my new boards tonight


----------



## Bwells

LOstSOul: I'm still trying to figure out how you can convert AC to DC using a single diode unless the choke/inductor adds something. I keep thinking of a Bridge Rectifier for that job.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I'm no expert, so I hope GRJ steps in to correct me if I'm completely off base, but I believe the diode is technically converting from AC to DC by cutting off the negative voltage of the sign wave leaving only the positive voltage. The upper part of the curve. 

I found a video that talks about it. As I said I'm no expert though. The base circuit I got by talking with GRJ some time ago. The only thing the Choke is doing is filtering the signal so it does not cause issues with DCS.


----------



## PatKn

A diode allows current to pass in one direction only. An AC signal alternates direction in a sine wave pattern. One diode will allow the current through when the polarity matches the diode. It is therefore allowing the current during half of the AC sine wave. This is a "Half Wave Rectifier" and only allows half the voltage through. A "Full Wave Rectifier has back to back diodes that use the full sine wave and provides full voltage DC. That is a simple explanation. I hope it makes sense.


----------



## Bwells

Yes it makes sense but I can't figure out what is happening with the other leg of the circuit and what the load is seeing without any "treatment". Not a big deal as I probably don't have "the need to know" and as long as it works, looks good to me!


----------



## L0stS0ul

The diode is dropping the voltage to about 9v dc from the 18v ac give or take. The capacitor is storing up energy allowing for the flicker free function and the resistor is just tuning the brightness. The LED strip lights I'm using are rated at 12v. I've tuned my cars lighting to the level that I like at 18v AC in using the resistor. I've not seen a need, in my fixed voltage scenario, to add in the regulator. Even without the regulator, in conventional, the lighting looks really good. 

Adding the bridge rectifier would give you the full voltage and then you would have to use different components as John shows in his circuit design.

At least that is my very naive understanding. I'm learning all this as I go too. It does work that is for certain


----------



## Mark Boyce

Looks great!! I need to do this with my passenger cars; cabooses too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## L0stS0ul

This is the first time I have ever soldered up a board from scratch. I learned a lot but I think I did a good job and, the important part, it WORKS 

I started out with this rats nest and ended up with a very nice clean install. I could clean it up even more and route the extra wires more neatly but I'm very pleased. Now to get the new board manufactured and get these existing boards in the williams cars where they can be mounted like this without being seen. 

















































Input voltage AC








Output voltage DC








Lookin good


----------



## Bwells

Looks like it works great! very nice job you did, congrats!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Job done, looks just dandy!


----------



## PatKn

Good job.:thumbsup:


----------



## L0stS0ul

The second prototype board came in yesterday. I totally forgot I ordered these. I'm getting a lot better at wiring these up and I have an easy way to check to make sure they are good. Down to about 5 minutes per board to wire up, solder, and clean up.


----------



## raleets

I have 6 Walthers HO scale Amtrak Superliner cars that I would love to be lighted. 
Is there anyone on the forum who would do this work for me at a reasonable price?
Bob


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the easy way to check them is to simply hook up an LED strip and track power!  I just use little test clips to clip on.

You'll love my test rig for the lighting modules, I just whacked out a piece of lumber. The little switch on the side controls the AC track power, and the four pins are spring loaded test bed pins, they're spaced for the header connections on the lighting modules. I just press them down on the module connections and press the button. The DC outputs are connected to a 15" LED strip, the yellow leads go to a standard transformer.

The LED lighting modules come in a sheet with 20 together, so I test then en-mass before I break them apart.


----------



## L0stS0ul

That's a nice test harness. I might have to do something similar


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

It was simple, the key to making it easy to use is the spring loaded test points. I actually filed them to a point so they will center in the holes as I test the modules before any connectors are on them. It makes the test very quick. I push the button to verify the operation, then release it and watch the LED's fade, thus insuring the capacitor is functioning to prevent the flicker. I've found one capacitor that didn't have a proper bond and wasn't making contact, that's in over 1000 of the modules.


----------



## KarenORichmond

L0stS0ul said:


> I wish I could update the first post with the current parts list. I order everything I need for manually creating it from digikey now except for the LED's. Here is the part list which I will also use in the board.
> 
> 
> *OPTIONAL FOR DCS USERS:* If you are a MTH DCS user you need to add a choke to the circuit. Probably not needed otherwise. This is L1 in the board above. This filters the signal and makes sure things don't interfere with DCS. [22µH Unshielded Wirewound Inductor 560mA]
> You need a diode to convert from ac to dc before you put the capacitor in. I use these. [ 1N4001 Molded Plastic Case Rectifier Diodes 50V 1A ]
> Capacitors to keep the LED's from flickering. I'm now useing 470µF 25V which are a smaller than the 35V version. 25V has been working fine for me but you can also get 35V [ 470µF 25V ]
> Resistors for controlling lighting level. The 470 Ohm is where I like it for my lighting. [470 Ohm Resistors, 1/4 W, 5%]
> For the LED lights I use this spool from Amazon. One spool will light a lot of cars/cabooses/whatever you are lighting. You can get it cheaper on ebay but I avoid ebay. [ 16.4 Feet (5 Meter) Flexible LED Light Strip with 300xSMD3528 and Adhesive Back, 12 Volt, Warm White 3100K ]
> 
> Using these components you can follow the first page of this thread to build the circuit. It's the same schematic as above for the circuit board I'm building.
> 
> Buying enough components to light 20 cars will cost all of $1.11 per car for DCS compatibility or $0.36 per car if you don't need DCS. The inductor is expensive. One LED spool should be able to do 30+ 15 inch passenger cars.


I have talked my son into helping me with this project. I should use this shopping list and wire, right?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I think you spend way too much on the 22uh choke! 

How about chokes for four cents each?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inductor-22...473095?hash=item488eebf2c7:g:YuUAAOSwd4tTxULf


----------



## L0stS0ul

KarenORichmond said:


> I have talked my son into helping me with this project. I should use this shopping list and wire, right?


If you would like to build the circuit that I use that is the shopping list. I keep a spool of speaker wire that I bought at home depot for any of the wire connections. This is the wire I use for the lights but I'm sure you can find similar wire for cheaper elsewhere

http://www.homedepot.com/p/CE-TECH-100-ft-24-Gauge-Stranded-Speaker-Wire-Y483233/203726258

I have tested and validated both of my board designs. When I get home from work I can post them if you want to try using the boards. It makes it so much faster to solder up and should be much more reliable than hand soldering the components. I can populate, solder, and test a board in less than 5 minutes. It takes me longer to hand assemble the components. 

John, I was thinking the same thing but there are not a lot of options on digikey for the choke.


----------



## KarenORichmond

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think you spend way too much on the 22uh choke!
> 
> How about chokes for four cents each?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inductor-22...473095?hash=item488eebf2c7:g:YuUAAOSwd4tTxULf


now you are changing my shopping list


----------



## KarenORichmond

L0stS0ul said:


> If you would like to build the circuit that I use that is the shopping list. I keep a spool of speaker wire that I bought at home depot for any of the wire connections. This is the wire I use for the lights but I'm sure you can find similar wire for cheaper elsewhere
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/CE-TECH-100-ft-24-Gauge-Stranded-Speaker-Wire-Y483233/203726258
> 
> I have tested and validated both of my board designs. When I get home from work I can post them if you want to try using the boards. It makes it so much faster to solder up and should be much more reliable than hand soldering the components. I can populate, solder, and test a board in less than 5 minutes. It takes me longer to hand assemble the components.
> 
> John, I was thinking the same thing but there are not a lot of options on digikey for the choke.


Absolutely. I think the boards would make this easier. thank you


----------



## L0stS0ul

This is the board that I am ordering 21 of. 

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/KkhtvfaR

All you gotta do is click the order board in the link above and you are done. It's the smallest and cheapest of my prototypes. I don't have the order yet but it should work as the others. If you want one of the other boards let me know and I can share it.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Here's one on OSH Park with regulation. This allows you to tune the intensity of the lighting, and it'll stay that way for varying track power.

Constant Current LED Driver Thru-Hole OSH Park Order Link


----------



## KarenORichmond

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Here's one on OSH Park with regulation. This allows you to tune the intensity of the lighting, and it'll stay that way for varying track power.
> 
> Constant Current LED Driver Thru-Hole OSH Park Order Link
> 
> View attachment 244129
> 
> 
> View attachment 244137
> 
> 
> View attachment 244145


so I need either of the two boards and the other items on the list plus wire?


----------



## L0stS0ul

John's board has a different parts list than mine. They are different designs.


----------



## KarenORichmond

L0stS0ul said:


> John's board has a different parts list than mine. They are different designs.


But either way I need one of the two boards and then the other parts list?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

My board does indeed have a different parts list. Truthfully, I haven't assembled a detailed list as all the parts are generic parts you can source most anywhere. Also, the resistor at R1 is a selected part, it's based on how bright you want the lighting.


----------



## L0stS0ul

KarenORichmond said:


> But either way I need one of the two boards and then the other parts list?


Right, pick the one you want and then purchase the board and the corresponding parts for that board. Either way you will need wire and the led strip. 

From my vantage point there are tradeoffs to each design. 

My board uses cheaper components and is smaller but the voltage is not regulated. What this means is at lower voltages the lights will be dimmer. It looks like on my table the lights hit full brightness for the circuit at around 7 volts AC in at the transformer. For me this is perfectly fine for conventional as all of my conventional engines are postwar and need more than that to move. The other tradeoff is the diode vs rectifier. Diode is way cheaper but the voltage is cut in half. That has the biggest impact on the capacitor. It has half the voltage so doesn't last as long. In practice I have not seen the need for it to last longer than mine does so again I've opted for the cheaper component. I can also use the smaller 25 volt capacitors. The 35 volt ones I bought are massive.

If you like to run conventional with newer engines that can run slower at lower voltages then you might want to opt for Johns design. For me with the occasional postwar conventional engine running and the rest of the time fixed voltage DCS my board is doing everything I need it to.

I've got more than 20 cars I need to light so at $1.11 with the components from digikey I'm pretty happy with how my project turned out


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Either way the cars will be lit.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Very true


----------



## KarenORichmond

Just ordered the parts


----------



## L0stS0ul

All of my boards are in as well as the components from Digikey. Really fast turnaround from Oshpark. Test fit the components and everything looks good. I will start soldering these up tonight.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Interesting progression of board layouts.


----------



## wvgca

they get smaller and smaller, 
next is SMD version ??


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The SMD version could be not much larger in footprint than the cap!


----------



## L0stS0ul

I've looked into the surface mount components and they are a bit more expensive. John posted a design earlier in this thread that put everything but the cap on the back of the board and that would be about as small as it could get I would think. It would be quite tiny that is for sure 

I think I'm done with my little project here. It was a lot of fun but now I have to go into assembly mode and get these things built and installed. I don't think I need it any smaller and I now have all of the boards I could need until I buy more passenger cars 

Soldering up one of these new boards does take patience. The components are so much closer together now


----------



## KarenORichmond

My boards shipped and should be here Tuesday. I have all the other things ready... now I have to get my son here to help do a couple of them while I watch


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Grow a backbone Karen, get that soldering iron out!


----------



## L0stS0ul

If you have never soldered a board before I have found that it is a lot easier if you put some flux on the components before you try to solder them. *EDIT do not use water soluble flux.*

I've found just a little flux on the components help the solder fill the thru hole and I can keep the iron on it less time. I put a little bit on the component, slide it into the holes, then put some solder on the tip of the iron and touch the component and pad from the back. Been working pretty good for me so far. I can do it with just the rosin core solder but the flux makes it easier. 

It's really not hard once you have done it once. Good luck.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I was populating some boards tonight and thought I would take some pictures while I did it to get it documented. Hopefully someone finds this useful

The first step is to gather components. I like to do 2 boards at a time so I get everything ready.

*Do not use water soluble flux like I did on these boards. You will have to wash them if you use it. If you wish to use flux make sure it is the correct stuff for electronics*









First I bend the leads on the inductor, test fit it, and then add some flux to the leads









I slide it through and slightly bend the leads to hold it in place. I then add a little more flux to the lead on this side.









I then solder the lead by putting some solder on the iron tip and touching it to the pad and lead at the same time. 









Then I snip off the excess with a wire clipper









I then do the exact same thing for the diode and resistor

















Next I prepare the capacitor. I add some flux to the leads and seat it on the board as far as it will go. 









Then with the capacitor pushed against the board I slightly bend the leads and apply some more flux like I do with the other components









Then solder it like with the other components









And snip the leads. You are now done with the main board assembly.









Looks pretty good. The fibers are from the cloth that I used to clean the board. Funny I couldn't see them in person when taking the picture. 









I've done six of the new boards now and this process is getting faster.









Here I have connected some leads and testing a board. The left hand side is the AC in and the right hand side is the DC out to the LED. 









Working really well. Very happy with how this project has ended up.


----------



## wvgca

the boards look good...
you're definitely not shy with the flux ..


----------



## L0stS0ul

It looks like more flux than it really is. When soldering these things up I thought I was using to little. These board are tiny and the pictures really blown up


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

What kind of flux are you using? That looks a lot like acid flux.

If you're doing a lot of boards, one of these is handy for forming the leads exactly to the proper spacing.


----------



## L0stS0ul

It's says water soluble flux. I picked it up at home depot and it was the only electrical flux they had. Everything I've read said the water soluble stuff is easier to use and less toxic. 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...6001rw&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6161445-_-11210757&cj=true

Hope that's the right stuff  That does look like a handy tool. I'll have to see if I can find one somewhere. Thanks!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

YIKES! Water soluble flux is acid based! If it's the stuff pictured below, STOP USING IT ON ELECTRONICS! You will have endless problems with corrosion after the fact.

For the boards you have already assembled, I recommend this. Take to the sink and submerge them and then using a toothbrush, thoroughly wash and scrub them. None of the components you are using will be damaged by water submersion.

If you use rosin core solder, there is no need for flux. I have soldered thousands, or probably tens of thousands of connections on PCB assembly over my lifetime, I never felt the need for more than the normal rosin in the rosin core solder.

Here's the MSDS for the product.

From the MSDS...



> Hazards:
> Hazardous Hydrogen chloride, zinc fumes, ammonia, smoke, carbon monoxide,
> Decomposition carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxides.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

L0stS0ul said:


> It's says water soluble flux. I picked it up at home depot and it was the only electrical flux they had. Everything I've read said the water soluble stuff is easier to use and less toxic.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzoma...6001rw&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6161445-_-11210757&cj=true
> 
> Hope that's the right stuff  That does look like a handy tool. I'll have to see if I can find one somewhere. Thanks!


Same admonishment as the other stuff, it's acid based flux! Wash the boards, throw the flux away, and get some rosin core solder! 

This is one of the answers to questions on that product.

_"Any solder and flux can work. An acid core solder is best for metal work in non-plumbing applications."_

Acid flux is NOT suitable for electronics!


----------



## L0stS0ul

ok, thanks for the education. Obviously the guys at home depot had no clue what they were saying. The marketing material says perfect for circuit board repair so I thought it would be ok. It does make it much easier to solder these boards. I've been having issues getting the rosin core solder I use to flow nicely all the way thru the hole and this stuff has made it very easy. I'll make sure to wash the boards after I do it and look for an alternative 

Thanks


----------



## L0stS0ul

Washing the boards wasn't hard and you can tell when it's cleaned off which is good. I think my problem may be the solder I have anyway. It too came from Home Depot so I will be picking up some new solder. John, do you have a brand you usually use?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'm currently using either Kester .020 63/37 Rosin Core for fine work or indium .031 63/37 Rosin Core for anything other than fine circuit board work.

If you got the solder at HD, chances are it's not Rosin Core for electrical work.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Thanks again! I've got some new solder on order and should be here Sunday. I'm sure the crappy home depot stuff is my issue. I've not found a good electronic supply store around here which sucks. Home depot or Lowe's is the best I can do for local stuff.


----------



## wvgca

Acid based or water soluble fluxes can be used for electronic work, however they do require flux removal as leftover acid flux is still active, and corrosive.. which is why some people prefer it [especially for production work where components are not affected by a water bath /spray], as it is much more aggressive in cleaning surface oxides ..
Rosin based fluxes are less aggressive, and can normally be left in place after repair work, but in cases where flux removal is required, the old methods of using Freon or MEK as a flux removal are no longer approved..ordinary carburetor cleaner works as a rosin flux wash. 
There are some newer organic fluxes with a lower rosin content that are water removable, but the cost is noticably higher ..
For normal hobby electronic use, a standard 60/40 or 63/37 rosin core solder is pretty commonly used, and leftover flux is not normally an issue .


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

You're right, production soldering frequently use acid flux. However, the cleaning is very rigorous and I've opened more than one product where significant corrosion has occurred because all the acid flux was not completely washed off. Even a tiny amount of residual acid flux will create quite a mess. 

For home use, rosin core solder is all you need, why complicate your life?


----------



## L0stS0ul

I've upgraded 5 cars now with the new boards and I am very, very pleased with the results. I've been testing everything out with a single consist keeping some cars with the stock lighting, some cars with the hand soldered version, and some with the new boards. I'm finding that the boards are proving to be much more efficient and resilient. The lights are slightly brighter and the capacitor is working much better keeping flicker at bay. I wasn't expecting the boards to perform so much better than the hand assembled circuit but they are. I tried to get a video but it's really hard to see on camera. In person the progression from stock -> hand assembled -> new board is dramatic. Even my wife could tell the difference!

I've also found the new board is really easy to install and hide. In combines and baggage cars it is super easy with all the space. In regular passenger cars I've found the roof is a good spot but these MTH cars I have a ton of have lots of spots I could put it. The board size does make it easy to adapt for each car though. For the old Williams cars I've been using the larger prototype boards since you can't see them.

I am waiting on the new solder to come in to complete populating the rest of the boards. I think the solder I have from Home Depot is junk but I was able to get the input and output wires soldered without flux on the cars I upgraded today.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

My usual place for the lighting regulator, if there's no other obvious location, is the roof of passenger cars. I mount if off to one side, and unless you get way below the window level and look for it, you'll never see it. Once you've experienced the nice even lighting of LED strips, flicker free operation, not to mention the reduction in power draw, it's hard to go back to incandescent lighting again.


----------



## L0stS0ul

The new solder came in yesterday and I finally got a chance to test it out. My son has a double ear infection with an upper respiratory infection so that's been fun and keeping me otherwise occupied. Anyway the new solder is working soooooooo much better. I can actually see the rosin flowing as I'm soldering and the home depot crap I never saw that. So ignore everything I've said about flux. Get some good solder


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I suspect the HD solder had no core, typically plumbing solder is solid with no flux core.

Welcome to the right way to solder electronics.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Yeah, The home depot stuff says rosin core solder for electronics but no specs on the solder at all and clearly very little rosin in the core.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Here's a tip for anyone upgrading Williams passenger cars. I got a set a while back. I believe they are postwar reproductions but the stock lighting is awful. 2 bulbs that are ground to the frame with no redundancy. Each truck powers it's own light. 









The big update here is to solder a wire directly to the ground strap on each truck. 









This will give you a really good ground which you won't get trying to use the frame. Just leave enough slack so the wire does not pull up on the ground strap when it goes around turns.

For these types of cars I actually prefer my larger board as there is more room. This makes for a very clean and reliable installation on these cars. 









I could have used 1 more section of the LED strip. I might rip this strip out and do that eventually but this gives really good lighting for now. I really like the Williams cars for my ceiling layout. The lights don't blind me as the silhouetted windows diffuse the light and cast a nice hue over the room.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I've never felt the need for more than one strip of LED's, I can get all the light I need from one.  I will say that the silhouette cars seem to take more light than the ones with the full interiors.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Oh, I wasn't saying add another strip. Just that I cut this one section to small. I have enough space to go a little longer on the strip  The sillouette does drop the brightness down some but it makes a nice glow. Looks really nice above me but I did have to add a lot of electrical tape inside the shell to close up gaps. Worth the work though.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I have noticed the Williams cars have a lot of holes in the frame, makes it interesting to seal them all up.


----------



## L0stS0ul

The next time I'm at the craft store I'll be looking for black or really dark hot glue sticks to use to seal up these cars. Would be a lot easier than any tape


----------



## KarenORichmond

Need some advice on how to put these in the cars when done. got one board ready to go. Here's the pictures of the first car trying to put it in.


----------



## L0stS0ul

I've done a few of those style cars now and they are pretty simple as you don't have to add much to the wiring. 


step 1: Cut the wires right at the base of the bulb holder on each side
step 2: remove the clear mounts and bulb holders from the car
step 3: Choose one side of the car to lengthen the wires. These will feed the input of the board
step 4: cut down the set of wires you are not using. 
step 5: double check the polarity of the wires. Usually white is + and gray is - but I did have one that was reversed. Once sure of the wires solder them to input into the board
step 6: determine the length of LED strip you want and test fit it. Then solder the wires onto one side of the LED strip keeping track of + and -. If you are using the same LED strip I am they are labeled right next to the solder pad
step 7: solder the LED wires to the output of the board. 
step 8: using the double sided tape mount the board and the LED strip to the roof of the car. I like to add 3 pieces of tape to the LED strip. One on each end and the middle to reinforce the adhesive backing.
step 9: place on track and test everything works and if it does close up shop and you are done.

I'm about to light about 15 of these cars so I can take some pictures when I do the next one


----------



## KarenORichmond

yes, pictures would be fabulous! thank you.


----------



## RonthePirate

Thread revival! I had asked if someone knew the best LED strip for lighting O scale passenger cars.
Then I did my own searching and found this thread, which is wonderful.

I have another question. I forgot to order diodes with the other material, and now I don't want to wait for it to be shipped. Can I just use the resistor with the cap and have the lights still look right? I understand they will be brighter, if I read right.
I was going to follow the design from post #48, with the cap at the back of the strip. 
And more important, will they still keep from burning up without that diode?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

*NO!*

The cap will explode with AC on it, the diode is an essential element in the picture. If you eliminate the cap, you'd then have blinking lights because of no buffering, but they would light. Of course, then you lose the reverse voltage protection, so I'd suggest you just wait.


----------



## RonthePirate

With that strong of an answer, I just locked up my soldering gun!
You startled me! hehe.
But yeah, besides the power loss with all those incandescents, the flickering is horrible. That's what I wanted to fix.

Thank, John. Going to Fleabay now.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I thought that would get the point across. 

If you pick a US seller, it's normally only a few days to get an order.


----------



## RonthePirate

Almost as good as the business end of a .44.

Found it on ebay; 100 diodes, guaranteed arrival Jan. 5th, $4.39,
no tax, free shipping.
It's the same guy I bought the resistors from. His date for arrival was Jan. 5th.
It came today, so he's on the ball.

Thanks again, John.


----------



## RonthePirate

OK, here are my results.

I did everything exactly as the posts said to. The cars lit up.
But I have an issue with the 470 ohm resistor listed; it seems that when the cars are running, they are so poorly lit that the lights cannot be seen.
I decreased the resistor to 100 ohm {I have a few lying around from previous works)

It worked fine. It's now bright and yet does very little flash.
Over the 90 degree crossings and turnouts, just a bit.

Question: will this resistor work well with that LED light bar, or will that low of ohms cause the lights to burn up faster?


----------



## L0stS0ul

Are you running constant voltage or variable voltage? I really like the level of lighting I get right now but I'm sure everyone has a different preference. 

I would take a volt meter and check the voltage going into the LED strip. If it's less than 12 volts then I think it would be ok. If it's higher than that you are decreasing the life of the strips.

Also make sure that resistor is sized properly. It shouldn't be getting hot.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Without measuring the current, I can't say if you're pushing too much current through the lights. Since they flicker, even with a 470 ohm resistor, I'd say you're pushing quite a bit of current through them. 

You must like really bright lighting as I light up 18" passenger cars with around 30ma total to a strip that runs the length of the car.


----------



## L0stS0ul

It does sound like something is wrong if the light cannot be seen with the 470 ohm resistor. They are brighter than the stock lighting on every car I've switched out. Maybe take a picture of what you put together. I bet something is not right. 

I only get flicker with this setup if there is something wrong with the car like a bad ground or broken wire to one of the collectors


----------



## RonthePirate

John, yes. I do like bright! I think it looks good just rollin' down the mainline with a string of brightly-lit passenger cars.
And yes, i probably am giving them too much current, with my transformer setting.

L0stS0ul, I am unfortunately very bad when it comes to tech or electronics. I read and do. But using the resistor specified was beyond dim for me.
My wife asked me when I was going to turn them on. I said they were.
She replied, no they're not. 'Nuff said.
I haven't done than with the volt meter. I do have one, and know how to read that, at least. I will check it.

I didn't use the original plan. I went to the "space-saver", further down the thread here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=1238985&postcount=48

I am using a KW-190, the setting for 6-20 volts. (I tried the 0-14 volts, but my engines would stall)
The resistor I'm using is a 1/4 w, 5% 220 ohm. It doesn't get hot. I have felt it after about 10 minutes, it's warm, but still can hold onto it.
The diode is 1N4001 1A 50V. Wired the correct direction. (Found out the hard way they have to be the right direction)
And a 470uF 35V 105C resistor.
All are wired with correct + and -.

I will get a picture of one of the cars, with my new resistors on.


----------



## L0stS0ul

That is really odd. Glad you are getting the lighting you like now. This is what mine looks like with the setup and I've built about 15 of them now. Still have another 15 to go. On mine I get to full brightness at ~9volts which works great with my postwar engine.

I can tell you that the space saver version is dimmer and the capacitor does not get as much voltage so does not last as long. But it's not much dimmer than this picture. I still have a number of cars with that setup. 

I'm now using the board I had fabricated by oshpark but it's the same design


----------



## RonthePirate

OK, did some work here. 

First, I took a pic of one of the cars. This one happened to have a 100ohm resistor, which will be replaced when I get new stock.
(Ran out of 220ohm, they are one the way ,courtesy Ebay and of course, PayPal.)
My pic looks just like the way lOstsOul did his. (He's much neater than me) But the parts are in the same order, the caps are the same value.
Orange is +, white is -.
I didn't use a choke, I read that was for DCS I think. But not necessary for my use.










My camera doesn't take dark shots well, so you can't really tell the dark effects in these pics:


















I forgot to take a volt meter reading, I will do that later.

I am using a KW190 (bought one of Sanepilot's, excellent transformer!) and I have it in the 6-20 volt config.
I tried the 0-14 volt, but my trains would stall on the tracks.
So I'm guessing the voltage to the track is around 10-15 volts, at any given time.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Where did you get those LED strips? They don't look anything like the ones I use. That strip might have different voltage requirements.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Those are the 5050 LED strips. Each LED actually has three chips internally, so a 5 meter strip with 60 LED's/meter would draw 6 amps at 12V as opposed to 2 amps at 12V. They're also considerably more expensive than the 3528 strips and overkill for the task IMO.


----------



## RonthePirate

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Those are the 5050 LED strips. Each LED actually has three chips internally, so a 5 meter strip with 60 LED's/meter would draw 6 amps at 12V as opposed to 2 amps at 12V. They're also considerably more expensive than the 3528 strips and overkill for the task IMO.


Sometimes, overkill is not a bad thing. Here's the Ebay page on those light strips.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30196589992...49&var=600764892086&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Again, my tech-less background probably allowed me to order the wrong strip.
However, at a cost of $6.69 and free shipping, that is more than an allowable expense for even me.
(They went up almost a dollar since I purchased them)

And I think I understand what you mean by the amperage draw, John.
But will they be OK with what I did with them?
And that amp draw is what made my lights dimmer than they would have been with a different strip?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

RonthePirate said:


> Sometimes, overkill is not a bad thing. Here's the Ebay page on those light strips.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/30196589992...49&var=600764892086&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


I do believe that the fact that you have three times the load may affect the brightness of the strips, by definition you'd have to go lower with the resistor to get the same brightness. You can obviously crank them up until it looks like sunrise in the cars if you desire! 

The 3528 strips have always been more than bright enough for me in any application I've used them in. Since one of the significant factors for going with LED's is to reduce the power draw and also kill the flicker, the lower current requirements of the 3528 strips is superior, at least IMO, for that task. The higher power draw of the 5050 strips reduces the effect of the capacitor in knocking out the flicker as well.


----------



## RonthePirate

Nothing wrong with your saying the problem, it's again my lack of electronics knowledge to absorb it.
But I sorta understood that at first. The higher the draw, the less the way it should act with that cap.

I guess it wouldn't hurt me to reorder the correct LED strip and redo the cars.
Those prices won't break the bank, and I can always find some place for light strips.
A good place would be the kitchen cabinets. Put a 12 volt DC adapter there, voila! Mood lighting.

Thanks for all your tech help. It really is appreciated! :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## DennyM

Great thread. I was thinking about changing my passenger car lights. I will definitely use this as a guide.


----------



## L0stS0ul

DennyM said:


> Great thread. I was thinking about changing my passenger car lights. I will definitely use this as a guide.


Glad you like it and I hope it's helpful. While this was fun it did evolve from this initial try and I'd recommend you look at this thread for my update. 
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=108729

The pcb can be purchased cheaply from OSHPark and it makes putting this whole thing together much easier as well as easier to mount in the cars. 

Good luck


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

A nice cheap LED reel that's suitable is this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162210290266

Select the options of non-waterproof, 5 meter strip, and warm white, $3.94 shipped free.


----------



## Bob Phillips

John will this reel look like incandescent bulbs or will the silhouette strips make them look yellow?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

They are very similar in color temperature as incandescent bulbs. They don't look any yellower than incandescent bulbs, at least they never have for me. I don't have many silhouette sets, the Polar Express and Hogwart's set are the two notable exceptions. Both of those have warm-white LED's, and they look just fine. Naturally, I use my lighting controllers.


----------



## Bob Phillips

Yes I use your controllers too. I must have used the wrong led reel as they seem very white.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

If they're "very" white, you probably use the bright white LED's. You're looking for a color temperature in the 2000K to 3000K range for warm white. Bright white is the higher numbers, corresponding to shorter wavelengths of light. Here's a useful reference...


----------



## Bob Phillips

Thanks John.


----------



## Ted W

Although designed for command, will the passenger led light kits from Hennings work with conventional? What happens, just dont work till "x" volts are applied to track? Thx TW


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, until you get to around 8-9 volts on the track, they won't light the 12V strips.


----------



## Ted W

with the capacitor will they stay on through a fwrd/netrl/rvrse cycle? How long do ya think? TW


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

No, the cap isn't nearly that large. For conventional operation, you really need to come at the problem in a different manner.

First off, the 12V strips require at least 9-10 VDC to light, so that's one issue. If I were doing something for conventional operation, I'd be wiring the LED's in parallel and using a low voltage regulator solution to light them. If you want them to stay on for direction reversals, you'll need a very large capacitor, I'd be thinking perhaps a .1F to .2F supercap to hold them up.

Although it was never designed for this application, I actually have something that would likely function in this application. I have this RailSounds battery replacement product that's just entering production. With a simple resistor change, I could boost the voltage to whatever is required to light the LED strips at the proper intensity. This little unit is designed to run at track power from around 5 VAC to 18 VAC. It's really killing gnats with an elephant gun, it's way overkill for a simple lighting task. I'm not recommending this approach, personally I'd just use different LED's, not the 12V strips, and a simple constant current regulator.


----------



## Ted W

So much for impulse buying. Just ordered 3 kits yesterday to do an old Super Chief 5 pack. I'll just hold on to them till I transition into the command environment. Thx John. TW


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I was, perhaps, too hasty in my analysis of the voltage required. I just did a bench test of a 12V strip and my lighting module. At the low end of the transformer, I was reading 5.5 volts, and the strip was already lighting.

This is with the MTH Z750 and controller, so it's a chopped waveform, and the peak voltage is greater than the RMS voltage.

With a pure sine wave transformer, the Lionel 1033, the strip started to light at 7 VAC and was at full intensity at 9 VAC. So, while it's not ideal, it does actually work at conventional operating voltages.

Obviously, if you have a modern transformer like the CW-80, the modern Lionel ZW-C, or one of the MTH Z-500/750/1000 series, transformers, the lighting would work fine with conventional. For a pure sine-wave transformer, it works a bit less than perfect.


----------



## Ted W

Interesting, you saved my bacon!! Got a cw80 and a 1033. I currently use the cw80 at 18v for a LC steamer on Fastrak, and the 1033 on an O27 run for an old 242 scout. Some other stuff on the shelf waiting for "greener" pastures. Thx again for the info, I learned something as always. Ted


----------



## rkenney

To light PW cars with LEDs you really don't need alot of bells and whistles. I got a roll of strip LEDs from ebay (12v probably china). I really don't remember the part nos. but I'm sure it was a forum recommendation. 

I wired them to a 35v electrolytic capacitor and a diode bridge stuck the adhesive backing to a wooden coffee stirrer and wired it so I could revert to bulbs if needed. Lights great for silhouette cars and I even separated some of the LEDs for the observation car running lights (attach with hot glue).
























If you don't have wooden coffee stirrers yet, you should. 1/4 inch wide (scale foot) by 7 1/2 inches long. All kind of construction uses not to mention mixing JB weld etc. Buy them in bulk online FS204 Coffee Stirrers


----------



## Jmflo126

Hi All, I’m pretty new at this and not a DCS user so I did not add the choke inductor as mentioned in the thread (said optional). I put together a couple of boards but they did not work. However If I just solder the parts as originally posted (no board), the led lighting works. Since I bought the boards, i’d Like to use them. Is the choke needed for it to work? Please help, thanks!


----------



## L0stS0ul

If you are not using the choke you need to connect the pads the choke would have taken up with a wire. The circuit is not complete with that pad empty.


----------



## Ted W

Jmflo126 said:


> Hi All, I’m pretty new at this and not a DCS user so I did not add the choke inductor as mentioned in the thread (said optional). I put together a couple of boards but they did not work. However If I just solder the parts as originally posted (no board), the led lighting works. Since I bought the boards, i’d Like to use them. Is the choke needed for it to work? Please help, thanks!


##############
I ordered them and with the choke work fine. The experts will chime in, but I would think some component needs to be in the circuit there for the board to work. A wire soldered across the contacts for example. I think you have a break in the circuit.

Lost Soul beat me to it. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Jmflo126

Thank you Lost Soul and Ted. I have lighted passenger cars now  i was missing that exact connection and beer.


----------



## jasonadiehl

*Thanks for this!*

I’ve been wanting to do led lighting but have been scared off by the apparent complexity but your tutorial gave me the confidence to give it a shot. I was successful on my first try, now only about 20 more cars to go 

But the couple hundred bucks I’ll save, and the satisfaction of doing it myself, has me excited to do the next ones.


----------



## L0stS0ul

Great to hear  Enjoy


----------

