# Switchers - Which end is the front?



## Mad Cap Romanian (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi everyone!

Over the last few days, I have been uploading my pictures of all the model train locomotives I am selling for my Monster Hobbies web site. 

As I started uploading the pictures, I got to thinking "What end of the switchers is the front end and which is the back?".

As I looked at certain ones, I wondered if I didn't accidently show the back-end by mistake. 

How can you tell which end leads and which end follows...or does it matter?


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## jzrouterman (Nov 27, 2010)

Which type? On this type (SW1500) for example, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/UPY_1144.jpg/800px-UPY_1144.jpg the cab end (closest to you) is actually the back end of the engine.

Routerman


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

The front is the end with the headlight. LOL. Switchers do so much forward and backwards work that it dose not matter.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There is a "front" on most, and it's not always obvious which it is. Some run long hood forward, some run with the long hood back.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> There is a "front" on most, and it's not always obvious which it is. Some run long hood forward, some run with the long hood back.



And the one with the cab in the middle has two fronts.


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## jzrouterman (Nov 27, 2010)

Southern said:


> The front is the end with the headlight. LOL.


Well, My SW1500 switcher has a headlight at both ends (directional lighting). And I'm also guessing that the one Ed has displayed here has a headlight at both ends as well.:dunno:

Routerman


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

big ed said:


> And the one with the cab in the middle has two fronts.
> 
> View attachment 15569




Not really, on most diesels you should have a small (barely noticeable) "F" which ever end this "F" is on is your front ent, the GG-1 should definitely have this "F" on it some where...so i would look for that to determine the front, not sure about most other diesels but the GG-1 im sure of...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The GG-1 is the only one I've seen the "F" on, and it's handy since that's a totally symmetrical locomotive!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

jzrouterman said:


> Well, My SW1500 switcher has a headlight at both ends (directional lighting). And I'm also guessing that the one Ed has displayed here has a headlight at both ends as well.:dunno:
> 
> Routerman



Yes headlight is at both ends.

Switchers that have a long nose......that is the way they ran them. Long nose is the front.
That is not saying they were not run the other way too.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

big ed said:


> That is not saying they were not run the other way too.


...like the Norfolk Southern who, until recently, required all units run long end forward, for safety in a crash, hence the name "Hammerheads"....

https://us2.ixquick-proxy.com/do/sp...http://www.trainweb.org/zeniphotos/NS8736.jpg


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I watched the movie *Unstoppable*, they run best long hood forward.  It must be true, they put it in the movie!


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## ChopperCharles (Jan 3, 2012)

What about a GP7? Which end is the front? Long or short?

Charles.


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## jzrouterman (Nov 27, 2010)

shaygetz said:


> ...like the Norfolk Southern who, until recently, required all units run long end forward, for safety in a crash, hence the name "Hammerheads"....


Shay, as usual, you're right on the money.:thumbsup: I have an old VHS train movie about the Norfolk Southern running to Kansas City, and that same exact point was brought up as they were showing how the lead engines on all of the NS trains were facing backwards. Thanks for bringing this point up.:thumbsup:

Routerman


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## jzrouterman (Nov 27, 2010)

big ed said:


> Yes headlight is at both ends.


I figured as much. But then isn't there a law that requires all engines to have a headlight at both ends anyway?




big ed said:


> Switchers that have a long nose......that is the way they ran them. Long nose is the front.
> That is not saying they were not run the other way too.


Yeah, I've seen them running them both ways. But then I've also seen GPs and SDs running both ways as well. 

Routerman


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm guessing part of the reason you see them running either way is the orientation of the locomotive in the yard when it comes time to hook up. There isn't always a convenient way to turn them around.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

I have a Bachmann GE 44 ton Spectrum loco and there is one end that has a little F in the corner. Othere than that there is no way to tell what direction is forward.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ChopperCharles said:


> What about a GP7? Which end is the front? Long or short?
> 
> Charles.


Depends on the railroad and how the cab controls are set up.

Some railroads ordered them long hood forward. Some ordered short hood forward.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

big ed said:


> And the one with the cab in the middle has two fronts.


Incorrect. EVERY engine has one end or the other designated as the front for maintenance and identification purposes.

Any engine can operate just as well in either direction.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Southern said:


> The front is the end with the headlight.


Every locomotive has lights at both ends. For some road-service engines this may be a full light package on the front and only a single-lens backup light on the rear, but that rear light will always be there.

Even F-units have rear headlights, although these are mostly later add-ons:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cv_acr said:


> Incorrect. EVERY engine has one end or the other designated as the front for maintenance and identification purposes.
> 
> Any engine can operate just as well in either direction.



Well beat me with a wet noodle for saying it has 2 fronts. I knew I should have added a smile face.

You made a statement EVERY engine.

On the 44 ton switcher "for maintenance & identification" by the railroad, which one is the front then? 
Not on a model engine, But a REAL ENGINE.

Do You Know?

The 44 ton has the cab in the middle, what end is designated as the front? 
I know.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's the end that's not the rear silly, everyone knows that. :laugh:


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

cv_acr said:


> Every locomotive has lights at both ends. For some road-service engines this may be a full light package on the front and only a single-lens backup light on the rear, but that rear light will always be there.
> 
> Even F-units have rear headlights, although these are mostly later add-ons:


I gess I forgot to add the LOL, On my answer about the front of a switchers.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

I just reread the queation.



Mad Cap Romanian said:


> How can you tell which end leads and which end follows...or does it matter?


The leading end is the end that gets to any point before the end that follows.

I just say'in


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Well.....cv_sar left without answering me.

Maybe he went to research an answer up?

Does anyone know?

Now this is only pertaining to the real 44 ton, center cab switcher engine.

How do you determine with end is front just by standing there and looking at it?


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

big ed said:


> Well.....cv_sar left without answering me.
> 
> Maybe he went to research an answer up?
> 
> ...


I do not know the real answer but if I were the driver I do not think it would matter. An idle locomotive is not making money. If I need to turn the locomotive it is both idle and costing fuel. In the case of a center cab I can hook a car to the any end and have the same performance and viability without need to turn around. 

The main reason I can see to have one end designated as the front is for maintenance. Hard to repair the right front wheel without a frame of reference.


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## Canadian Car Knocker (Feb 8, 2011)

Looks like a certain canuck doesn't know sarcasm when he sees it lol


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Engines are usually marked in some fashion to identify which end is "Front".

For something like a 44-tonner, it may not matter all that much operationally, since they're used in light industrial environments and have no capability of running in multiples. I've seen some examples where the front is not real obviously marked on the outside, but take a nice close look at this 44-tonner at Strasburg and it's quite clear which end has been marked as "front":

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1660772

But even if you can't immediately tell from the outside, the engineer will be able to tell from the inside. I know that for example when I drive my car I find it helpfull to know what direction it's going to go when I put it in the "R" gear. ;-) 

(And of course, ANY engine, not just centrecabs, can operately perfectly well in either direction with cars coupled at either end.)

And BTW, tone is a tricky thing with a typed comment. It doesn't always come across. And this forum in particular seems to have a high percentage of beginner-level or casual model railroaders, and I don't know any of you personally, and some of the responses were such that there is a fine line distinguishing between "sarcastic" and "hopelessly clueless beginner response".


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

*Model, not prototype*

This thried is posted in the "general _model_ train forum discussion", of a "_model_ train forum". The baner at the top of the forum is of a switcher, Is that the frount or the back that is hooked to the boxcar? It dose not matter which end the picture is taken from.

I can't speek for for full scale (1:1), but I looked at my model switcher and there are no marks on it at all to mark the frount.

I just checked and there are no lights on the rear of my F or E units.









Which end is the front of a F B unit?


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Southern said:


> This thried is posted in the "general _model_ train forum discussion", of a "_model_ train forum". The baner at the top of the forum is of a switcher, Is that the frount or the back that is hooked to the boxcar? It dose not matter which end the picture is taken from.
> 
> I can't speek for for full scale (1:1), but I looked at my model switcher and there are no marks on it at all to mark the frount.
> 
> ...


I had that same question when buying a PA1-PB1 Alco set. Was told the following rule for be units: Look at the fans and the fuel tanks. They should be orientated the same as the A unit. this is because a B unit is just a cabless A unit on the outside. Functionally it does not matter though. Hence in the Alco's case that Big fan is in the back. For the F7B the set of 4 is twords the back.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Southern said:


> This thried is posted in the "general _model_ train forum discussion", of a "_model_ train forum".


Well excuse me for thinking that our little trains are actually modelled after something that actually exists in reality, and studying that reality helps to understand things....



> The baner at the top of the forum is of a switcher, Is that the frount or the back that is hooked to the boxcar? It dose not matter which end the picture is taken from.


For the loco in the banner photo, the end coupled to the boxcar is the front.



> I can't speek for for full scale (1:1), but I looked at my model switcher and there are no marks on it at all to mark the frount.


Different models have varying levels of quality and varying levels of accuracy with respect to markings. In this case though, the end of the B-unit that is to the left of the image is the front.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You the Man Chris (cv acr) .:thumbsup::worshippy:
What did you do go to the University of Trains?
Your a great wealth of RR info.
(Not sarcastic)


Chris is right, most switchers are marked to designate which end is front.
If not they should be.

On the center cabs you can tell which is the front even if you can't see the F by the placement of the horn. The horns pointed to the front. 
(I know...some horns pointed both ways.)

An old Buick notice the F, notice the horn.
Edit again, I think that is a horn?










Notice the F on these Savage switchers I captured in Philadelphia.









What do you think is the front on this one, Chris? I captured this one in Pa, just south of the Philadelphia airport in Lester, Pa.
The front is where the bell is on this one? 









Edit,

More pictures of this one here....http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5388&page=5


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Bump the above post.

Copy and paste,

What do you think is the front on this one, Chris? I captured this one in Pa, just south of the Philadelphia airport in Lester, Pa.
The front is where the bell is on this one? 


What do you think? 
I don't know.


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Thanks for the info Chris. I have fixed my switcher.










Now I know that there is a front and which end it is.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Southern,

What is "decal setting solution" ???

TJ


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

big ed said:


> Bump the above post.
> 
> Copy and paste,
> 
> ...


It's possible. If it is in fact properly marked there's a post right smack in front of just where you'd expect that marking to be. (And this looks like its been stuffed and mounted there for a few years - it's certainly not original paint since there's a good chance this thing is well over a half century in age, so it's anyone's guess whether it even has those markings. 

Just because you can't necessarily tell from the outside on this one though doesn't mean there isn't a front, you just can't tell without going inside.

Beyond that, is there something in particular that you want from me here big ed?


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> Southern,
> 
> What is "decal setting solution" ???
> 
> TJ


It softens the decal and helps it to set properly on the piece.

It also helps the decal to conform to details on the piece - if you're decalling over rivets and hood lines multiple applications of setting solution may be required to get the decal to snug down around the raised detail.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hmmm ... could be just the ticket I need. Earlier today, I posted a question about the risks of applying a large (5" x 3/4") decal to the sides of a Lionel tender ... mostly a flat surface, but a few rivets, too.

Would you recommend the solution for decal newbies? Purchase at LHS? Safe for underlying paint???

Many thanks!!!

TJ


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

tjcruiser said:


> Would you recommend the solution for decal newbies? Purchase at LHS? Safe for underlying paint???
> TJ


I use Micro-Mark's kit. #84304 Decal finidhing set. It is just six differant bottles of testers decal solution.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Depending on where the control stand is in a locomotive cab designates one end or the other as the front. The GG1's had a cab at both ends (control stands for each direction), but still had the F on them for "Front". Modern diesels have the "F" letter, usually on the edge of the walkway right near the front step. I think the NS ran theirs long hood forward, because the older engines they used (Geeps from the N&W days), were built with the control stands in such a way, that they were meant to run long hood forward. I think some F units had controls in the back to make switching easier. The GG1's saved many lives because of their long hoods. In one instance, a GG1 filling in for a metroliner hit a car going over a crossing which really messed up the front end of the locomotive (which I think was scrapped not long after). Nobody on the train died (can't remember what happened to the occupants of the car). It would have been a different story if the cab car of the metroliner had hit that car.

Some locomotives might have been built with a control stand on each side so it could be run either way (I seem to remember that from somewhere anyway).


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

big ed said:


> You the Man Chris (cv acr) .:thumbsup::worshippy:
> What did you do go to the University of Trains?
> Your a great wealth of RR info.
> (Not sarcastic)
> ...


I'm noticing a trend here. The bell and or horn is always on the front of the engine thus this can be used as a deducing method for most engines. Done & Done:laugh:


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## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

What is wrong with this pic.? There is something very wrong here. 










The bench is facing the wrong way to look at the switcher.:laugh:


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

This thread - good grief ... and I thought determining the color of water was hard!


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

I always figured that the end with the cab was the front except with steam engines. Apparently I'm wrong for the first time this year. Yuck! 
Also the two fronted switcher is a two backed switcher too and most of the engineers on them go nuts after awhile. They can't figure out if they are coming or going. Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As far as steam locomotives, what about the cab-forward?


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

*As far as I'm concerned.....*

Not to be irreverent, but IMHO, the front of _any_ switcher would be the end that HITS YOU when standing on the tracks....:lol_hitting::lol_hitting:


....Just my 2 cents! 

Jim


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> As far as steam locomotives, what about the cab-forward?


Them's got the back before the front. Didn't last long though. Pete


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Take a good look at that Cab forward. It's a steam engine going backwards with the cab closed in. I could never figure out how the fireman got the coal out of the tender and into the firebox. Or it could have been oil fired through a pipe from the tender. Anyway the cylinders are reversed from what a true cab forward would be so the engine is just turned around. NO? Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Beats me, I just looked for a picture of a cab-forward steam locomotive. 

Lots of similar pictures.










Here's one in a museum, so they must have made at least one.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

Cab forward steamers were made so that the fumes did not kill the engineer in long tunnels. They were all oil fired I believe. A hose was run from the tender to the cab to deliver the oil and another for water. I remember reading that if the hose leaked there was a high chance of fire due to the oil hitting the hot boiler.


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## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Beats me, I just looked for a picture of a cab-forward steam locomotive.
> 
> Lots of similar pictures.
> 
> ...


 Does anybody else notice that the road number on the model matches the number on the museum machine?....Just sayin....


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Certainly there were several of these engine made but my point is that it's only an ordinary steam engine turned around and the cab closed in. And yes they were made for the engineers who had to drive them through long tunnels.It helped them breath fresh air before the engine puffed a lot of smoke and fumes into it. Lord help the engineer in a helper engine at the back. He got smoked out I'd think. Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

manchesterjim said:


> Does anybody else notice that the road number on the model matches the number on the museum machine?....Just sayin....


Not a surprise at all, many models are made with the same number as the prototype.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

cv_acr said:


> It's possible. If it is in fact properly marked there's a post right smack in front of just where you'd expect that marking to be. (And this looks like its been stuffed and mounted there for a few years - it's certainly not original paint since there's a good chance this thing is well over a half century in age, so it's anyone's guess whether it even has those markings.
> 
> Just because you can't necessarily tell from the outside on this one though doesn't mean there isn't a front, you just can't tell without going inside.
> 
> Beyond that, is there something in particular that you want from me here big ed?


Next time I run down there to pickup soap I will hop up and look inside.
No not the original paint.
It has headlights and ditch lights on both ends. Has an exhaust pipe on both sides, I wonder if there are 2 engines under the hoods? Bell on the one side, and I don't see any horn.

"Is there something in particular that you want from me here big ed?"

You got any old trains that your throwing away?
Spare cash?:laugh:

Just your train knowledge will be sufficient.:smokin:
You seem to have a great abundance of train trivia facts.:thumbsup:
Edit,
Who ever painted it did not put an F anywhere I looked at the others pictures I took.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

If you're talking about the little switcher with the roof over it, it's a whitcomb 45 tonner.

There is an engine at both ends that power one axle on each truck. The other axle is powered by the side rods. It was probably built in the 1940's.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

*The Great Switcher Debate!*

Curiosity got me, found this on Youtube. Seeing there's only one set of throttles etc I say that would be the front.

Enjoy the music. :laugh: 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EufPB5tIMFc


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Well I guess the engineer sits on the right side. A giveaway if you see one in action.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jack,

Nice "in the woods" video ... fun find for someone.

(I move the post over to the other Switcher thread, for continuity.)

TJ


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