# Location of passenger cars behind steamers?



## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Curious if there was a common location to put passenger cars behind steamers that also had other cars. Meaning, if a passenger car were placed in behind a steam engine that was also pulling 'freight' cars (ie not passenger) would the passenger car be placed forward, or behind of non passenger cars?

I want to make a station stop of my steam loco, and just want to know where to place the passenger car so I can space the rail gap correctly to stop in the right place.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

The photos I have seen show baggage and express cars followed by passenger cars.


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

this is the order that I have found

Motive Power
Railway Post Office(s)
Baggage Car(s)
Combo Car (baggage/coach)
Coach Cars
Dome Car(s)
Dinner
Sleeper Car(s)
Observation


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Are you talking about baggage/RPO cars or actual freight cars as in a mixed train which many short lines used? My understanding is RPO's were first, then baggage then passenger cars.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

I don't really now all the terminology, but just curious how to stack cars. So for example, my train may have a tender, log car, a gondola with firewood, a gondola with Christmas trees, a lighted passenger car, and a lighted caboose, would that be OK?

Yes, this is for a holiday train, not really one to be absolutely historically correct.

Thanks all. Just trying to get a best guess how it might be lined up.

ADDED: Gramps, I take it by RPO you mean railway post office? And from Lehigh74's response that would be ahead of an 'express' car'? (Express being high priority shipment?) So anything not passenger goes in front?


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

It's your railroad. Put the dome cars in front of the motive power if ya want.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Consider the passengers in each car (versus the paid workers) and how they would be affected by the noise and smoke from the loco. That's why in the example above the sleepers were nearly at the end of the train. Keep your customers happy and they'll keep buying tickets.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Thanks everyone.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

OK, since it doesn't appear the question has actually been properly answered yet...

On many *mixed* (the proper term for a train handling both freight and passenger cars) trains the passenger equipment is usually at the rear of the train.

Such mixed trains are often switching cars along the way, so you want to be able to have the engine do that while the passenger car sits by the station, instead of being jostled around.

Also, some rulebooks required any occupied equipment to be handled at the rear of the train with the caboose, unless it absolutely wasn't possible/practicable (e.g. pickup up work boarding cars from a siding and the location and/or conditions makes it difficult to lift at the rear) and then there would be severe movement restrictions.

Since the passenger equipment in this case won't be able to draw steam from the engine for heating, they'll generally be older cars with coal or oil stoves for heating. (Also these types of trains tended to be on lightly traveled marginal routes, so not getting the newest and fanciest cars.) Otherwise you'd need a standalone heating car to provide steam to the coach(es). 

Also, since this is such a marginal route, the passenger accommodations will usually be nothing more than a single combination baggage/coach car. If you're running a holiday train excursion special though, you might reasonably have a bit more passenger space, and probably no need of baggage space.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Ah ha. Thanks for the explanation, makes sense. I think I did get the answer I needed (in the back) but it's good to know exactly why. Appreciate it!


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

I know of a picture from the 1930's of a branchline mixed train with a combine (RPO + coach) instead of a caboose, and it's correct that express freight and mail came after the locomotive; but cv_acr is right about passenger cars being heated (and air-conditioned) from steam from the locomotive until the early days of Amtrak. I'd put revenue freight at the rear.


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## Atlanta (Apr 29, 2019)

Hey Ya'll,

what is about local trains or inner city transit trains, like you can see at the Edison Films archived by the US Library of Congress?
There are some old Movies filmed by Edison of the New York City Elevated Subway with small Tenderlocos pulling some open platform passenger cars coupled behind the front of the loco, so that the loco crew have smoke free visibility when running with their steam locos through tunnels.

On Express Trains the RPO, Baggage Cars than several Sleepers followed by the Dining Car than the Passenger Coaches and at least the Excursion Drumhead Car in the End of the Train.

Ya Ingo


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Passenger trains don't "mix" with freight no mo'...

Back when they did, these were usually small trains with a few freight cars to be peddled out along the line, often with a coach or combine on the rear. That way the coach wouldn't be getting banged around as the engine worked the sidings. I doubt "steam heat" was ever a factor on these trains -- the coach had its own source of heat.

On Amtrak, for a time we had the "material handling cars" that looked like a big boxcar with a plug-style door. They would carry palletized mail, etc.

Sometimes a few of these would be on the head end.
Other times, they'd stick several on the rear.
The dedicated mail trains, like "Mail 12" and "Mail 13" had the material cars, with a "rider coach" for the crew on the rear.

Baggage cars would normally be on the head end, but they could be on the rear, too.

Insofar as diners, sleepers, etc. were concerned, they'd be placed wherever they worked best for the particular train.


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## Atlanta (Apr 29, 2019)

Remember the 50' feet Express Refeers from several different RR Companies who hauled express fruits or vegetables ice cooled on passenger trains.










Such cars had passenger trucks for higher speeds it were coupled shortly behind the loco followed by RPOs or Baggage cars.

There behind Passenger cars.

And how was it on more rural or countryside areas were passenger service was not the main interest to the RR Company?
The big money made by freights.
Mixed trains with freight and passenger cars could be often seen.

Ya Ingo


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Express reefers and boxcars are a special case, with high-speed trucks and steam lines in order to be handled in passenger train consists.

They become part of the mail/express traffic often handled at the head end of express passenger trains. This would be a standard part of the consist of such trains that handle them. That's not the same as a true mixed train.


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## Atlanta (Apr 29, 2019)

Hey Ya'll,

here an example of germany...








BR Class 01 1100 
4-6-2 coalfired Pacific

Once in an year in summer the historical "migration bird express train" is moving between Hamburg and Burg onto Isle of Fehmarn at the baltic sea.

Ya Ingo


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Well I think we've officially gone way past the point of having anything to do with the original question anymore...


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## Atlanta (Apr 29, 2019)

Hey Tom,

about your entire question of your first post.

The location of the (first) Passenger car behind not passenger cars can be various.

Every RR Company handle it different and in that way of what it works best for them.

Sure it would be better to protect passengers by smoke of the pulling engine so the best place for passenger cars will be behind non passenger cars.

So decide fpr yourself where to place your passenger cars.

Ya Ingo


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

some would depend on whether or not they drew heat / steam from the loco ..as far as i know flat and boxcars did not have steam lines running through them


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> Well I think we've officially gone way past the point of having anything to do with the original question anymore...


It's all good. I got my answer, and now it's just for general discussion and information.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

wvgca said:


> some would depend on whether or not they drew heat / steam from the loco ..as far as i know flat and boxcars did not have steam lines running through them


As mentioned (and ignored) earlier, usually cars assigned to mixed train service would be older cars with coal stoves, since they wouldn't be able to draw steam from the engine.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

The Bebe and Clegg books, especially Mixed Train Daily, have good photos of the make-up of mixed trains.


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## lorettospringfield (Feb 18, 2015)

Amen even in the model world we try and keep it right.


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## Jay Pat (Jan 1, 2020)

Tom_C said:


> Curious if there was a common location to put passenger cars behind steamers that also had other cars. Meaning, if a passenger car were placed in behind a steam engine that was also pulling 'freight' cars (ie not passenger) would the passenger car be placed forward, or behind of non passenger cars?
> 
> I want to make a station stop of my steam loco, and just want to know where to place the passenger car so I can space the rail gap correctly to stop in the right place.


In the real world, heavier cars to the front. Helps to avoid derailment.
In model railroad, I don't know if would make a difference.
Pat


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## Theamazingswal (Dec 14, 2017)

I see some REA cars had steam connectors. That means they could be placed in front of passenger cars. I was a railroad fireman back in the early 70's. Just try and not send back any steam on a cold day and you would hear about at the next station stop.

George


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

The trains with priority back in the day were those carrying meat and silks. Mail, if it had enough of it, would take up an entire consist running as an express. 

On more modern WW II era passenger consists, the head end had reefers directly behind the engine, followed by an RPO, then Baggage car(s), then cars that were going onward with the reefers and engine when the consist was to be broken up at a hub like Chicago or St. Louis, followed by sleepers and coaches that were being shunted into consists going to other places.

Behind everything going with the engine to it's final stop, there would be a combination of coaches, sleepers, diner, and lounge car or observation/dome. Business cars and executive cars might also tag along as paying customer or one of their own if an executive had to be someplace overnight. The final car, if a lounge car, was often called a club car.

I am still amazed at the tonnages that S1b Niagara steamers and the various 4-8-4 types could haul at breakneck speeds if they had to make up time. Consists in the 18 car range were quite common. The S1b and T1 Duplex routinely made up time at speeds well in excess of 100 mph. Despite their high drivers, they had to accelerate quickly so that they COULD make up time between stops.

Speaking of brutal accelerations, I have read that the Penny's GG1 had no match.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

mesenteria said:


> Speaking of brutal accelerations, I have read that the Penny's GG1 had no match.


No doubt! Even as a kid I remember how fast those things were. If I get the time this winter, I’ll drag out my ‘55 copy of the Standard Guide and compare NY-DC express schedules with that of Acela. Or maybe someone already knows? I’ll bet there’s not a lot of difference.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

mesenteria wrote:
_"Speaking of brutal accelerations, I have read that the Penny's GG1 had no match."_

Then you haven't been on a pair of AEM-7's with a modestly-sized train!
*ZOOM !!*


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

No, you're right, I haven't. I guess a pair of them would surpass one GG1. Mind you, there was a gap of 42 years between their designs and introduction to service, so a bit of advancement favoured the AEM product.


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