# Just In, wanted to share my new layout plan



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

Hello everyone... 

I've been a model train enthusiast since I was a young lad, when I got the opportunity to build my own house in 2008, I used it to provide a decent space(20 x 12) for my future HO layout. 










As you can see it will have 2 helix's, I was thinking of creating a large mountain across the back to cover them, with a valley in the middle.

I wanted to share my plan, and am hoping for some suggestions on how I can improve it.

Any help is appreciated!!!

Damien.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

12x20 is a really nice sized space. Have you even considered a shelf style layout that goes around the walls of the room? What is the maximum reach-in with your design as drawn (I assume there is access from the middle somewhere.)


----------



## manchesterjim (Dec 30, 2011)

*Nice!*

:appl::appl: Very Nice design Irish!

I think I want to use the Helix idea in my layout!


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

sstlaure said:


> 12x20 is a really nice sized space. Have you even considered a shelf style layout that goes around the walls of the room? What is the maximum reach-in with your design as drawn (I assume there is access from the middle somewhere.)


Hey Scott, the room it's in is actually 20x30, so I'll be taking up just under half of it. I did think of using a shelf layout, but after I spent so much time plastering(taping the joints) and painting, I decided to go freestanding...

The maximum reach is about 4 feet(I can just about manage it).

Here is a drawing of my baseboard, the long edge with the 2 access holes is the back, the wall behind this has a window in the middle.









Damien.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

It's a very cool layout. So the back edge with the 2 cutouts and the 12' sides are against the walls and it's open on the 20' side that has the turntable? Out of curiousity, how old are you and how often do you plan on having to crawl into the access holes?

My first layout had a crawl under and it was AWFUL (and I'm only 39). I've got some spots where I've got a 36" reach-in and even that is rough on the back (like when you're painting backdrops or doing scenery along the max reach.

I'd do something like this and maybe have a lift bridge near the thin spot along the bottom edge. I'd guess about a 80 ft linear mainline run and no more than a 2 ft reach in. Just a thought (certainly nothing wrong with what you have planned if that's the look you're going for.)










You could even make this multi-level really easy with a helix placed at the end of the peninsula (just bulge it up a bit in size to get a 26" or so min radius to get a decent grade.)


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

sstlaure said:


> It's a very cool layout. So the back edge with the 2 cutouts and the 12' sides are against the walls and it's open on the 20' side that has the turntable? Out of curiousity, how old are you and how often do you plan on having to crawl into the access holes?
> 
> My first layout had a crawl under and it was AWFUL (and I'm only 39). I've got some spots where I've got a 36" reach-in and even that is rough on the back (like when you're painting backdrops or doing scenery along the max reach.
> 
> ...


Yes the 20' side is open, the others are against the walls. I just turned 31, but I have 2 sons who can do a lot of crawling... 

I appreciate your input and advice, but I have my heart set on a big mountain scene at the back, with a valley and maybe a trestle bridge or viaduct...


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

The layout you've got planned should do that just fine. Let me know if you've got questions about helix design (i've got one in my layout.)

I've got a couple layouts drawn that are very similar to what you have shown (helix used to climb up to a "high" scene, then back down the other side.


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

*Updated Design*

Here is my re-design, I decided to add another track, that'll enable me to run 4 separate trains at the same time(as it is not dcc, yet)...










Just ordered the timber to build the helix's, and also ordered some more track... 

Hoping to start laying some track in the coming week...


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

What's the innermost (smallest) radius on that helix?


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

sstlaure said:


> What's the innermost (smallest) radius on that helix?


Smallest radius is 438mm, the outer two are 505mm and 572 mm... 

I'm only planning on running small trains on the inner track...


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

440 mm is only 17 inches. That's pretty much flat out not going to work in a helix.

That's a *Tight* radius, and to get a absolute minimum 3.5" rail-to-rail separation between levels (minimum 3" clearance plus at least 1/2" for the track and roadbed) you're looking at almost a 3.5% grade, plus the effect that the sharp curvature has on the apparent effects of the grade. That's leaving no extra space for getting your hands in there for maintenance.

Note also that on a grade or flat, a 17" radius is quite tight, and only short cars like 40' boxcars will operate well.

It's also not entirely clear where your access and aisles are meant to be on the plan. A 3' reach is pretty much the maximum attainable. You might feel that you can stretch to an extreme of 4', but try doing track maintenance at that kind of reach!!

Accessing that yard behind the elevated tracks is also going to be difficult if not impossible.


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

And if the inside helix is 17" R, what is the radius of the inside curve at the bottom left corner??

Just eyeballing the scale that can't be any more than 9"!! That really won't work at all. Period.


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

That's only a 17" radius....This is HO correct?

You're grade in that helix is going to be REALLY steep. I calculate 3.5% straight grade on the inside & 2.8% on the outermost track, but then you're also pulling the cars around a pretty tight curve.

That might pose operating problems down the run (limits in train length, etc.)

Mine is set at 26" radius and 2.45% grade and an engine is maxed at about 10-12 cars. (Nice engines, smooth rolling cars w/metal wheels, properly weighted)

Just something to think about.


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

sstlaure said:


> That's only a 17" radius....This is HO correct?
> 
> You're grade in that helix is going to be REALLY steep. I calculate 3.5% straight grade on the inside & 2.8% on the outermost track, but then you're also pulling the cars around a pretty tight curve.
> 
> ...


Yes its HO 1/87th, I get it's tight but its within hornby's recommendations(max 3.5%)... Only planning to run small engines with 4-5 wagons/carriages on the inside track. 

On the other curves, currently the longest train I have is 3 carriages, so I don't really see this as a big problem. I might eventually run 5-6 cars...


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

cv_acr said:


> And if the inside helix is 17" R, what is the radius of the inside curve at the bottom left corner??
> 
> Just eyeballing the scale that can't be any more than 9"!! That really won't work at all. Period.


It's 371mm (just over 14.5 inches), it's hornby brand from england.

http://www.hornby.com/shop/track/r605-double-curve-1st-radius/

I know the larger engines and rolling stock wont run on it, it's only for the small stuff...


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

irishfreight said:


> Yes its HO 1/87th, I get it's tight but its within hornby's recommendations(max 3.5%)... Only planning to run small engines with 4-5 wagons/carriages on the inside track.
> 
> On the other curves, currently the longest train I have is 3 carriages, so I don't really see this as a big problem. I might eventually run 5-6 cars...


That sounds about right....as long as you understand the limitations - go for it.

I'd love to see pics of the build as you progress


----------



## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

nice layout, and I too can't wait to see pics of the build and your trains...however I would suggest pushing the radius out just a tad, not much but a small bit to make sure your small trains will run it properly every time  I would do 18" if it was me doing the building, but hey go for what makes you happy man, can't wait to start seeing the pics of the layout and trains!!


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

sstlaure said:


> That sounds about right....as long as you understand the limitations - go for it.
> 
> I'd love to see pics of the build as you progress


Yup, 

As I posted yesterday, just waiting on timber and semi-flexi track for the helix's... I want to start from there as the rest of the layout could change again(while laying the track I might have a new brainwave, or my sons might suggest something), but the mountain range is a must.

I'll post pics when we start


----------



## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

good


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

New Berlin RR said:


> nice layout, and I too can't wait to see pics of the build and your trains...however I would suggest pushing the radius out just a tad, not much but a small bit to make sure your small trains will run it properly every time  I would do 18" if it was me doing the building, but hey go for what makes you happy man, can't wait to start seeing the pics of the layout and trains!!


Me too, can't wait to get started... Now where's the damn delivery man with the stuff I ordered...


----------



## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

let me check the status of your package(s)...wait....here ya go


----------



## kursplat (Dec 8, 2010)

very ambitious :thumbsup: can't wait to see pics of the construction, that's going to be one heck of a table layout


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

kursplat said:


> very ambitious :thumbsup: can't wait to see pics of the construction, that's going to be one heck of a table layout


I hope so...


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

*Cork Underlay*

Ok, just got some cork tiles to use for track underlay. Plan is to cut strips 10mm wider than the sleepers. As this will is my first time using cork, does anyone have any tips?


----------



## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Use clear Latex caulking to adhere the cork to the board or foam and then use the same the same latex caulking to adhere the track to the cork. 
If the cork that you bought is in sheets and not pre-made for the road bed i would also suggest that you cut in to half the widths for the curves to be able to bend it to the curve.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I used dabs of hot glue to adhere the cork ... worked especially well for a "quick grab" in the turns. Not too hot if on foam, though ... just enough to melt the glue.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Sean, does that latex caulk stay somewhat pliable after
it dries? How much drying time before it will hold track?
Do you prefer latex over silicone?

I will probably use hot glue for the cork roadbed to plywood.
Caulk just seems like it might be better for the track.


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey Irish...I agree that you have a nice size for the proposed layout. I would also caution to make sure that the radii on the layout are not too tight for your trains. Maybe instead of having two relatively tight helixes, you could have ONE helix with a 26" radius (660 mm). It could be a two-track wide helix, one for going up and one for coming down. You would only have to build one helix and it could accomodate some fairly long boxcars/locos. I like your plan...very unique! I wish you all the best in your endeavor! 

Chad


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

*Helix Update*

Got the timber for the helix's today, At least 1 delivery arrived before the weekend... 

I compromised on the helix design, they will be oval, with 10inch extra on each run, this will bring the grade's down a little... And wont affect access holes...










Still trying different ideas for the foreground layout... Any suggestions/ideas are welcome...


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

*Construction begins...*

Ok, so I already had the table built, started work on the helix's...




















I will cut access holes in the table on the inside of the helix's once they are in place.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

How are you going to join the sections of the helix? I'm planning a helix as well, but I'm thinking of laminating 1/4" plywood in alternating layers to avoid a weak seam any place on the run.


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> How are you going to join the sections of the helix? I'm planning a helix as well, but I'm thinking of laminating 1/4" plywood in alternating layers to avoid a weak seam any place on the run.


That will make one continuous helix, it sure will be sturdy. My plan is to connect the sections with a few strips of 9mm mdf, as the threaded rods will carry the weight, I don't see it as an issue.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean, I don't like the fact that you have a joint all the way across the roadbed. How are you bonding that to the next layer of the helix? I guess you could consider biscuit joints or something similar.


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean, I don't like the fact that you have a joint all the way across the roadbed. How are you bonding that to the next layer of the helix? I guess you could consider biscuit joints or something similar.


Sorry, I will try to explain... 

I will glue the 2 joints to another piece of MDF(see example pic) and screw them together. I will fill the seem with caulk aswell and sand to a smooth finish.










As I mentioned, the threaded rods carry the weight so I really don't see an issue connecting the joints like this.

Also I will be using cork for my roadbed so the seem should not affect the track.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Damien,

Nice work on the helix structure. I'm a fan of MDF, and I think it's a good choice here on your end.

Hey, for future reference, could you post small pictures in your future posts? The ones above are so large that it makes viewing the page difficult, where one has to scroll left/right in order to read a post. Try to keep pics under 1600 pixels ... under 1200 or so is common.

Thanks,

TJ


----------



## JohnAP (May 4, 2011)

Irishfreight,

Nice progress, and a Happy Saint Paties day to ye!


----------



## Southern (Nov 17, 2008)

Great layout, Great photos. But I prefer not to have to scroll to see them.


----------



## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Damien...nice job so far. Before you get too far, I just wanted to make sure you had no curves that would be too tight. I know you said you weren't planning to run long equipment up it, so maybe everything is just fine. Some of the initial curves appeared kind of sharp (tight) in the pics. Looking good so far though! Can't wait to see more!

Chad


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Damien,
> 
> Nice work on the helix structure. I'm a fan of MDF, and I think it's a good choice here on your end.
> 
> ...


TJ, 

Thanks, I did a bit of helix research before I started...

BTW I changed the size of all images to 1200, but the old links don't work now...


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

*Layout Design*

Here is the layout design, changed image sizes and made a mess of the links...


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

JohnAP said:


> Irishfreight,
> 
> Nice progress, and a Happy Saint Paties day to ye!


Thanks, and many happy returns...


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

mr_x_ite_ment said:


> Damien...nice job so far. Before you get too far, I just wanted to make sure you had no curves that would be too tight. I know you said you weren't planning to run long equipment up it, so maybe everything is just fine. Some of the initial curves appeared kind of sharp (tight) in the pics. Looking good so far though! Can't wait to see more!
> 
> Chad


No bother, I did extend the helix's to get a (little) better grade...  

Yes the 2 inside curves are sharp, but I know from experience what will/will not run on them, it's all part of the master plan...


----------



## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Looking great....What track planning software are you using?


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2012)

Irish has groovy CAD software...makes engineers think trains can fly...

I like some of those track plans; more than your double dogbone. One was a design I had not seen, I think it was called 'abscessed molar.'


----------



## irishfreight (Mar 13, 2012)

sstlaure said:


> Looking great....What track planning software are you using?





[email protected] said:


> Irish has groovy CAD software...makes engineers think trains can fly...
> 
> I like some of those track plans; more than your double dogbone. One was a design I had not seen, I think it was called 'abscessed molar.'


I'm just using scarm...http://www.scarm.info/index_en.html

LOL @ makes engineers think trains can fly... 

Going to dry fit the helix's, as I'm waiting on the semi-flex track... hwell:


----------



## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Irish has groovy CAD software...makes engineers think trains can fly...
> 
> I like some of those track plans; more than your double dogbone. One was a design I had not seen, I think it was called 'abscessed molar.'


uhhh so trains do.....well can....fly....see...I captured on photo a rare breed of flying train, the UP5770l...see it flies...


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Cool pic!

Dare I ask, "How?" ... P'shop?

TJ


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Cool pic!
> 
> Dare I ask, "How?" ... P'shop?
> 
> TJ



Google tampa air cargo though Google in images


----------

