# Lionel Scout 1110 Engine



## gunrunnerjohn

I have a Lionel Scout 1110, and I'm trying to get the engine running properly again.

Problem is that the E-Unit doesn't seem to function all that well, though I can't figure out why. It won't reliably reverse, and once in a while, it'll just stop with the light on bright (obviously no load). Flipping the lockout lever on the engine will start it right up again.

I split the case and looked all over, everything is whistle clean and seems proper. I cleaned the E-Unit contacts, and they're solid as far as I can see as well.

Where do I look?


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## tjcruiser

Gun,

That's one of those plastic-housing motors with the internal dual-drum e-unit. I just fiddled with a similar one on my 233 loco.

Couple of assembly questions / points ...

You have to get the drums in the right location ... pointed tooth drum on right, blunt tooth drum on left. Also, they must "mate" such that a brass section of one aligns with an insulated section of the other.

Also, the bent metal contact springs that touch the drums (one spring on top, one on bottom) must be installed with the little slotted-hole center tab facing inwards (not outwards).

You said you split the case ... I didn't get that far on mine (left my wheels on, etc.). Are you sure that the pawl that gets pushed my the top movable field is engaging the right-hand drum teeth OK? (The pawl turns the drum one index when power drops in the field).

Check those things, then we'll go from there.

My thoughts, anyway...

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, yes to all of those. Drums are in correctly, they are opposed, i.e. not aligned brass to brass. The contact bump does point into the engine. The pawl is turning the wheels whenever I poke the armature through the hole on the top and force an index, both wheels turn. The movable field core that indexes it seemed to be sticking before I opened it up, but after I opened up and checked everything and put it back to together, it works freely.

All outward appearances are that it should work, but it's flaky.


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## tjcruiser

Maybe check things from a different angle ...

What about the voltage from the track? Is this a decent transformer? When you hit a reverse button, are you confident that voltage is dropping as it should? Are you getting any unintended voltage drops that are cycling the e-unit?

Just trying to narrow things down.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

I cranked up the voltage to 16 volts, I'm using my bench 1033 transformer. I can't imagine that voltage is the issue, the train will go like a rocket at full throttle, just won't reverse when I want it to. Several other old engines run fine on the same piece of track.

The E-Unit has the problem with the engine in my hand and clip leads connecting it to the transformer, so that's probably not the issue anyway.


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## servoguy

Have you oiled everything? Including the pawl and the drums? You can oil the contacts with 5W-20 motor oil, and it will not affect the electrical operation. I have brought a few of these engines back to life, and it seems that oiling everything made them work just fine.

BTW, you can oil the commutators with 5W-30 also, and it will radically reduce the motor friction. It doesn't burn or get gummy based on my tests of more than a year using a 2333. However, you should clean the commutator slots before you do this as the oil will release the dirt trapped in them and the dirt will contaminate the commutator. I have done this to several engines without a problem. It is somewhat controversial, though, with some guys claiming it can't possibly work. I wasn't sure it would work either until I tried it.
Bruce Baker


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I can try oiling the E-Unit to see if that helps. Everything looks proper and clean, so it's a mystery why it doesn't work.


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## T-Man

With the conventional e unit the drum has to turn. You can hear that happen. If not, check the coil connection and the lever contact and hope the drum didn't break at the end. With that working ,you may have a bad finger contact. More pressure or replacement is needed. That is if the drum is clean.I am not sure if we are discussing an e unit at this time. Does the 1110 have the plastic motor????????


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

I'm pretty sure the Scout 1110 is a plastic motor with an internal, two-drum e-unit (and not a conventional single-drum e-unit hung off the back).

Cheers,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, the scout motor isn't sporting a conventional E-Unit.  It has a really oddball unit. I can manually cycle it and it works, but something is not working when it is cycled in use.


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## tjcruiser

Perhaps grasping at straws, but are you sure the pawl spring and pawl are installed and engaging properly within the motor?

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/loc1120c.pdf

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, they're installed the only way that makes sense. They are as it was when I took it apart, and I really doubt it was ever apart before. I actually thought of that and fooled around with them, but no other orientation made any sense. Sitting on the bench, I can poke a small pin punch in the top and actuate the E-unit, so I think that part is assembled properly.


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## tjcruiser

Just thinking out loud here (I've never had one of these plastic motor fully opend up myself), but ...

The upper (movable) field that engages the e-unit pawl moves should move down when power is applied to the field ... the field winding itself acts like an electromagnet. When voltage drops (with a transformer throttle down or reverse button), the electromagnet releases its holding power, the upper field moves back up, and the pawl finger grabs and turns the e-unit gear one notch in the process.

You likely know all that ...

I'm wondering if it's possible to send power to the field directly (via jumper wires) with the motor opened up (and perhaps with the e-unit gears removed). I.e., can you attempt to isolate the electro-mechanical actions of the electromagnet / upper field / pawl and watch what they're doing (or attempting to do) directly?

Just a thought ...

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, with the motor opened up, it's pretty hard to watch the action, the movable field coil is loose without the other piece on it.


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## tjcruiser

Got it. OK then ...

How about with the motor sides put back together, but with the e-unit cover and drums removed ... Is it possilbe to jump (power) the field in that configuration to see if the pawl is moving up/down OK?

Tell me to stop babbling if we're just shooting too much in the dark here ...

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, the armature is freely moving at that point, and since the motor runs strong, I have to assume that if it's going to work, it will work. In addition, as I previously mentioned, poking the armature through the lockout hole allows it to move freely and index the E-Unit wheels.

At this point, I'm putting it aside and working on some other projects, I have to get the small train platform working for Christmas, and there's lots of wiring to go!


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## T-Man

The pointed gear drum goes to the right.
1062 motor


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## gunrunnerjohn

Correct T-Man, that's where I have it. I do notice I don't have the lubrication wick that I see on ours. The gears looks like brand new in mine, like it was hardly run.


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## T-Man

It's been a while, I am not sure what the lever does. That tells you how often I run it! I thought it was just forward and reverse. With these the engine wheel need to be clean for a good connection and the center roller. I say just run it forward or reverse. I am not sure what else to look for. Make sure you have good spring pressure too on the brush.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The lever locks out the E-Unit, just like other trains. It just sticks the pawl down and stops it from ratcheting.

The motor runs great, so it's getting power, and the E-Unit doesn't even reverse when I have clipleads to the frame and the center rollers, it still malfunctions.


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## T-Man

The unit doesn't work sideways to test, it must be upright. That's the best I can think of. I did that once or twice. 
Those little clips need to be in place around the drums. I had a hard time to do that. Pesky little thing isn't it?


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## gunrunnerjohn

I do realize it has to be upright, that's how I was testing it. AFAIK, any mechanical E-Unit only works in that orientation.


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## T-Man

How about flipping the contact springs? From top to bottom?


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## gunrunnerjohn

Did that a couple of times. Even tried to install them upside down to see if that helped, but no dice. They're apparently making good contact, at least they look like they are. It has to be something about the wheels not turning correctly, because at times the unit stops with the light bright and no current through the engine. As you're doubtless aware, this is a two position E-Unit, no neutral, so it should always be running.


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## T-Man

I will have to see if there are any good tips in the manual. I have to find it first. Then I will test the 1062. TO be honest I lock out my e units and go with forward. Then if the motor is running ok I test the e unit. Some engines run so nice that it is evident they had little run time.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The engine runs great with the E-Unit locked out, it'll do that either forward or backward. The issue seems to be indexing the E-Unit, which is why I split the case after seeing that it was an internal unit. All looked good in there, and now it's back together, but it's doing the same thing.


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## T-Man

I was reading up 0n the 6110 and came across a reference in the manual. The engine is prone to a quick reverse after a bump. This is cause by a tight spring or a slightly bent pawl. They recommend replacement. The other item was to clean the brush gears of extra plastic from the original molding.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I solved the problem by getting rid of it. I explained that E-Unit operation wasn't 100%, they seemed happy.


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## tjcruiser

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I solved the problem by getting rid of it.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

OMG ... that's too funny! Brilliant solution, though! :thumbsup:


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## bowtieman427

Found this old post one time and pointed back to it by a fellow member. My son has a Scout 1110 with motor 1001M and is redoing it. It would stay in neutral even though there is no neutral with light on not movign when V was applied. It would make the grunting noises but no movement. He decided to cleaned it up a little. Then put it on the track and it slam back and forth forward then reverse. We found some sections of the service manual online and he decided the split it open and noticed the Pawl spring was not connected. He cleaned it all up inside, because it looked real bad. Put it on the track and it went reverse but could not put it in forward. So far he has to manual set the E unit for direction by taking it apart and orientating the the drum brush holders. The E unit is NOT actuating on its own. Then it is stopped working entirely again. He noticed by chance that if he pushed in the armature hub pin on the side of the shell forcing it closer to the brushes it would come to life. 
I think there are 2 things going on here.
1) The E is not actuated by the engine
-Suspect there is something going on with pawl or pawl spring. any ideas ??? 
2) The brush and or brush springs need replacing. 
-any ideas how do we know these are bad ? 

Anyone have any experience with these units. i do no think he is to the point of selling it.


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## T-Man

Just make sure all the metal connections are clean and all the parts are there. Including the wheels and track. A poor connections will cycle the direction.


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## gunrunnerjohn

bowtieman427 said:


> Anyone have any experience with these units.


I have experience with a couple of them, and I just was handed one for repair, I politely handed it back! 


> i do no think he is to the point of selling it.


Give it time, he'll get there.


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## [email protected]

*1oo1m morter*

Hi, I am the boy with the train called the scout. I have taken it apart and cleaned it and now it moves forward not reverse. The switch on the top flops around, and it is supposed to make the train move forward or reverse. It is not changing direction anyone know anything or have an idea.


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## T-Man

The lever has to be in postion, with a spring. The gears have to be in the correct location.


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## [email protected]

T-Man,

Do you know how to position the spring and the lever, and even the gears to line up correctly???


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## [email protected]

Dose anyone know how to line up the spring, lever, and the gears.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I got rid of both of mine and never looked back, wish I could help you.


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## T-Man

After 2 years I can't give specifics. I documented what I did. You can look at some other threads they may be of help. The lever sits in the frame and uses a spring. If you got it apart you should get it back together.

Post 17 has the drums with the dull gear to the right. There is also a link to the 1062 thread. That should help.

This is a diagram.

The lever on top just stops the field from mving. I was thinking of the lever inside the frame.

The drum needs to rotate for directional change.


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## [email protected]

guss what!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I got the scout working like a charm . It was a long journey but i replaced the brush springs and the pawl spring and it is like a little dragster really fast and does burnouts on the track!!!!!!! So much fun to play with it.
thanks for all the help guys!!!!!!

From:
James douglas


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## rdmtgm

Congratulations! Glad to hear it is running good! now it is time to go and get your next project. Your on your way to starting a wonderful train addiction.


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## sjm9911

Great news.


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## rkenney

That's good work James!:appl: 

I don't have a scout but looking at the diagram tells me on the one hand how clever it is as a mechanism (Lionel was always good with that) and reveals how cumbersome it might be to assemble/disassemble.

Now for your next project you need to take step by step pictures and post them to show others how you did it.


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## santafe158

I always have to wonder when I'm working on the lower end Lionel postwar stuff, how they could be built so complicated, yet sold at such a low cost compared to everything else back then. My postwar 2037 for example, takes twice as long (and seems to have more parts) to take apart than my postwar 2055... Not sure how that worked out, but I suppose it did.


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## clayman

*10 months since the latest post in the string.....*

How do I separate the motor? I took the drum housing off, checked the brushes and springs; all looked ok. I think I am going to now have to dive into the internals but don't know how to remove the wheels off of the axle before separating the case.

Any help out there?


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## gunrunnerjohn

You need a wheel puller, although it's been done with primitive tools.  You are embarking in an exercise in futility, at least in my experience. These were never made to be maintained.


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## Dave Farquhar

I agree. I have my dad's 1110, and it still works, but I don't run it a lot to keep the motor working.

A better bet is to replace the motor. There's a postwar motor that fits--the 2034, I think--or you could probably put a modern motor from a cheap starter set loco in it. Many starter sets still use the old Scout casting.


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## clayman

GRJ, you are the guy I was keying in on. I have read a lot of your stuff and I figured with your experience, if you were bailing, then I would probably have to as well. Because I am stubborn, I re-took the damn thing apart again and noticed that my contact pieces weren't precisely aligned. Re-aligned, closed em up, and PRESTO, I'm back in business. 

Dave, thanks for the suggestion. I am going to flip this over on Ebay anyway, so, won't mess with trying to modify. 

The knowledge is deep, the price is right, why shop for any RR information elsewhere?


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## T-Man

I second the answer.

The 2034 and the 1130 will work. They have the same motor.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I think T-Man actually got to see one of mine and had the same luck as I did with it. When they go, they really are difficult to get working again. I also split the case and tried about everything, finally threw in the towel.


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## T-Man

I remember that one. hwell:

I have another one apart now. The coil overheats. I now understand why the plastic halves break. The stress of wheel removal and installing. I use forks and a press.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've decided some things just can't be repaired.


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