# Couple 'is this possible' questions



## Stevorino (Nov 30, 2013)

Hey guys - 

I've been lurking here the past few days - looks like a great community!

I had this idea a few weeks ago to essentially build a holiday/temporary train track that grew every year. The basic idea is much like the 'circle of track around the christmas tree': set it up each thanksgiving and tear it down after christmas along with decorations.

The engineer/builder in me wants to put this concept on steroids..... In year one (this year) it would be simply a circle track or something relatively basic.... every year as part of christmas we'd add $100-$200 of track/trains to it. The end goal would have this train set become a monster and be all over the main floor of the house. 

I have 3 wife-imposed restrictions:

1) I actually tear it down each year and don't leave it up permanently (haha)
2) No clearly-visible permanent markings/modifications to our home (ex: No hooks in ceiling for track in-air).
3) It cannot be an obstacle to living our everyday lives (ex: can't have to duck under/climb over tracks to get to-from kitchen).

I've done some basic research and I have some concerns I hope you guys could help with:

1) To Achieve #3, I have come to the conclusion I'm going to have to get this track in the air.... quickly. I have done research on max grade - it seems like the general guideline is 2% max, sometimes 4% is doable. This means to me that going from floor (around christmas tree) to near ceiling (to pass into next room without being in the way) is going to be nearly impossible to do in an aesthetically pleasing way. Any ideas? The best solution I've come up with is to actually not have it go all the way to the floor and actually circle the tree 4-5 feet in the air on some kind of support structure.

2) I'm trying to find a way to get the track into the air with minimal points of support. The main rooms for this monstrosity has cabinets, door mouldings, and other tall furniture to act as points of support. Any suggested reads or products to help support the track in between? My favorite idea is just some very thin plywood/balsa wood and anchoring it at inconspicuous places.

3) I've been debating between O and HO scale. I'd like O because it would be bigger and more obvious when it came through a room/area. But I'm afraid the added weight will make it more difficult to suspend in the air/near the ceiling and cause an issue with the grades I will be forced to use. Thoughts?

4) Any suggested starter kits? I'd like to keep it under $200 if possible, but am willing to spend more if it's a better overall value in the long-run. I would love to have 2+ trains on the track eventually, if possible.

Thanks guys!


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## sawgunner (Mar 3, 2012)

one answer to the elevation issue is to build a helix however depending upon what engines you'd like to run best for HO with a not so long train would be 22" radius or 44" diameter.

you could always hide it behind the tree LOL


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## Stevorino (Nov 30, 2013)

sawgunner said:


> one answer to the elevation issue is to build a helix however depending upon what engines you'd like to run best for HO with a not so long train would be 22" radius or 44" diameter.
> 
> *you could always hide it behind the tree LOL*


lol, that was my first thought as well. If everything else checks out, I can see us moving the tree to a place that helps me hide some of the less attractive pieces.... :laugh:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Or you could dress it up as a mountain sceen, with snow, houses, ice skaters, you get the idea and put it next to the tree. Have a loop run around the bottom of the tree and around and through the mountain. Now that your up in the air I don't have a clue. The mountain peice could be disconnected at the top and bottom and placed into storage. Ho is probably better the o for this project. Just the mountain part will keep you busy for a bit.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

How about a floor plan for our track designers to play with?


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

The clearly visible part gives you grey area. Is a plugged hole clearly visible? How you would utilize minimal anchorages and still achieve a rigid roadbed is slightly beyond my paygrade, but if I were thinking about it I'd build an isosceles trapezoid roadbed truss to suspend between triangle brackets that would mount to the ceiling. 

That's just me though.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The New Guy said:


> The clearly visible part gives you grey area. Is a plugged hole clearly visible? How you would utilize minimal anchorages and still achieve a rigid roadbed is slightly beyond my paygrade, but if I were thinking about it I'd build an isosceles trapezoid roadbed truss to suspend between triangle brackets that would mount to the ceiling.
> 
> That's just me though.


WOW, I had to look that one up. 

I searched and all your spelling is right but nothing came up. :dunno:
Do you have any pictures of a isosceles trapezoid roadbed truss? :dunno:

It sounds complicated. :thumbsup:


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## rzw0wr (Aug 28, 2013)

isosceles [aɪˈsɒsɪˌliːz]
adj
1. (Mathematics) (of a triangle) having two sides of equal length
2. (Mathematics) (of a trapezium) having the two nonparallel sides of equal length


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I belive it's similar to, if not the same animal as trusses that hold up roofs on new construction houses. Think of an elongated trapezoid and add bracing in the middle to resemble triangles. This support s the weight.


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## Stevorino (Nov 30, 2013)

I consider this a success already.... 5+ posts in and nobody flaming my masterplan!

If I move further into the project, multiple floor plans will be presented. There's about 3-4 different places we could put the Tree on our main floor. When I get to the point where I'm scaling walls, I will definitely let the expertise of this board contribute 

For putting the track above our heads, I'm thinking I am going to put wall anchors into the the wall _just above_ the moulding around the doors/windows... the question is... can that support an O-scale train or do I need to downsize to HO or N?

The problem with any kind of ceiling-mounted truss is the obvious holes of installing that for just 1-2 months of the year. I'm thinking that my only options are to drill into the walls right above doors/windows or to build 8-10 foot skybridges that span from one piece of furniture/cabinet to the next.

So.... any recommendations on holiday-related train sets?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Stevorino said:


> I consider this a success already.... 5+ posts in and nobody flaming my masterplan!










We feel sorry for you as you already have the wife flaming you.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Don't worry, if this keeps up we'll have the family living in the garage and the whole house filled with trains!


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

big ed said:


> WOW, I had to look that one up.
> 
> I searched and all your spelling is right but nothing came up. :dunno:
> Do you have any pictures of a isosceles trapezoid roadbed truss? :dunno:
> ...


Well the OP is an engineer. That's like cake for him. 

So picture a triangle ▲, but now invert that picture ▼. This is the part you mount to the ceiling, and depending on how rigid the truss the spacing could be quite wide.

The truss could be as simple as 2" foam (the webbing) sandwiched between 1/8 or 1/4 ply. I suggested the isosceles trapezoid because it would nest in the inverted ▼ really well.

I don't know that anyone has ever done something similar, so no pictures. I have a vivid imagination though, and it looks great there.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

This is thought provoking but you have no idea what your getting into. Sorry if I'm the flame thrower but it's going to cost you $150 just to get a train and a power pack with enough track to go around the tree one time and that's in HO scale. O scale would probably be double that or more. What I can't figure out is if the train goes around the tree then why will it have to climb walls and go into other rooms? Where will it go? What will it do when it gets to wherever it's going? I think your headed for a trapezoidal hit from the wife as soon as you start punching things into the walls. Ha! Pete


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Stevorino said:


> The engineer/builder in me wants to put this concept on steroids..... In year one (this year) it would be simply a circle track or something relatively basic.... every year as part of christmas we'd add $100-$200 of track/trains to it. The end goal would have this train set become a monster and be all over the main floor of the house.
> 
> I have 3 wife-imposed restrictions:
> 
> ...


I think it sounds like Mission Impossible. 
But I am rooting for you.

For the first year may I suggest just putting the train under the tree?
That alone should be $200 bucks worth, if not more. 
Then you have a whole other year to plan the expansion. :smokin:


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## Stevorino (Nov 30, 2013)

norgale said:


> This is thought provoking but you have no idea what your getting into. Sorry if I'm the flame thrower but it's going to cost you $150 just to get a train and a power pack with enough track to go around the tree one time and that's in HO scale. O scale would probably be double that or more. What I can't figure out is if the train goes around the tree then why will it have to climb walls and go into other rooms? Where will it go? What will it do when it gets to wherever it's going? I think your headed for a trapezoidal hit from the wife as soon as you start punching things into the walls. Ha! Pete


Haha - I appreciate the critical comments too... I'd actually be concerned if this thread got to 20+ posts without a couple!

For year one, I definitely only want to circle it around the tree. I essentially just want to get a solid foundation in place so I can focus on more trains/track in the coming years. The multi-room approach will definitely be a work in progress over time (if it ever takes off at all). 

Now I'm just trying to figure out O vs HO scale (I'm leaning towards HO because of cost/weight) and what to buy to get going for this year. I'm not sure if I am better off to buy a starter kit or individually buy a 2-3 car christmas train, enough track to get around the tree, and a power supply/controller. I'm also trying to figure out if DCC makes sense to jump into from the start or just make sure it is DCC compatible.

I'd love any thoughts/advice from you guys.


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

Stevorino said:


> ...For year one, I definitely only want to circle it around the tree...Now I'm just trying to figure out O vs HO scale and what to buy to get going for this year.
> I'm not sure if I am better off to buy a starter kit or individually buy a 2-3 car Christmas train, enough track to get around the tree, and a power supply/controller.


If this were strictly under/around the tree I'd go O all the way. It's the distant future that is mucking up the works. 

But I'd definitely buy parts that interest me for this project. Kits rarely meet all expectations, and then you end up buying more or replacing parts anyway.
Kits are what the manufacturer and/or distributor want you to have, and the more parts that are added are to boost profit margin.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

An HO scale helix of reasonable grade would have a radius (minimum) of about 26" (You could go tighter, but the grade with change as each loop around the helix MUST climb at least 3.5"-4" to clear the track below.

So you're talking a box roughly 56" width & length. You could simply make it a box and decorate it like a HUGE gift-wrapped box (it is a holiday layout, correct?)

In theory you could make it in sections that could clamp together so that the height of each section can go down stairs or store easily (basement.)

O-scale is 2x the size of HO (HO being Half-O)

Anything you plan in O scale will take up roughly twice the room as HO.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> An HO scale helix of reasonable grade would have a radius (minimum) of about 26" (You could go tighter, but the grade with change as each loop around the helix MUST climb at least 3.5"-4" to clear the track below.
> 
> So you're talking a box roughly 56" width & length. You could simply make it a box and decorate it like a HUGE gift-wrapped box (it is a holiday layout, correct?)
> 
> ...


I was in a restaurant in Peoria about 20-30 years ago that was train themed and right near where they had a big Loco on Display down near the river. They had a large scale train (bigger then O gauge) running all around the walls of the restaurant about a foot or so below the ceiling, it went from room to room and at a good clip too. This place also had ceiling fans all over the place that were belt driven from a very very long single belt and that belt seemed to also go from room to room. I once tried to find the power source and discovered it was a large motor in the ceiling that actually ran two belts one went off in each direction and each belt ran about 10 fans. I also discovered it actually had two trains running around and I used to wonder how the heck they controlled them so they did not run in to each other, but they never did. It was fascinating to watch, I was flying for UPS at the time and that became a dinner stop on a sat night when we RON'd there. I went not for the food but to watch the fans and the trains go around, the food was fairly decent too.
Does anyone from Illinois remember thus place???? It was not too far from Alexanders Do It Yourself Steak House.


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## DCHO (Dec 3, 2013)

From what I've seen a decent DCC HO set is going to go over $300, there have been warnings in other threads about some of the low end DCC sets and the DC sets that are targeted at the Christmas crowd and down really run/expand well. I personally would assemble what you need and make some choices about what you want to include when.

In terms of HO: A good DC engine (not DCC) can be had for $50-150, figure $10-30 per car, $10-30 for a DC controller and another $20 or so for track, add in about $15 for other bits, wiring, spare joiners etc. And that's just running a loop around the tree, for year one. Year two I'd probably add some track expanding overall size to about 4x8 and several cars to break out of the loop mold and add a little more interest. Year 3 plan for $400 add a DCC set and the decoders for the engine you have. Year 4 2nd Engine, a car or two, more track to go beyond 4x8. By Year 5 this probably won't be just a holiday season type thing, and you'll have a really good idea of just how big you want it and how to accomplish it. Also at some point in there you'll likely want to start adding structures and building scenes to take it beyond just a pile of track.

Prices above are ranges, I probably leaned a bit on the high side of prices I've seen in the last week or two of web surfing. There will be deals to be had below those numbers and items well beyond that cost.

I'm just getting back into things, Model Railroading was a hobby I gave up on since moving out of my parents several years ago, still in an apartment, but decided to do something under the tree this year, with a hope that foam tables, computer layouts and a little creativity can make it a feasible option in an apartment year round.

Here's how it worked out for my budget so far this year (the last 2 weeks roughly):
Control: 
$15+ shipping on ebay, really want to go DCC but this MCR Tech II 1400 will be plenty until I have a larger set in place and multiple engines. My tree layout will remain simple and ensure this has a home​Track: 
$30+ shipping on ebay, waaaaay more than needed for the tree, but long term all going to use.
$8 on joiners and joiners with wires attached (I could have cut this cost in half as I have soldering equipment and experience, but time is limited for the tree setup)​Scenery: Running track on the carpet isn't really conducive and I had to sell the concept of bringing trains into the house to my girlfriend, so snow scene it is.
$4 for 2 white polystyrene blocks I cut to fit a square around the tree.
$5 for a sheet of quilting batting to use as the blanket of snow (and the part that is acting as the tree skirt.​Engine and cars:
$0 for a GP30 and half dozen freight cars, part of my collection, stored on my father's train set, he'll be mailing them out to me next week
$20 for a snow plow car to make the scenery theme work
$120 for a Kato SD90 Engine, DCC Friendly when all my old engines are yet to be determined, will ultimately need a decoder (totally optional at this phase, but a sign out how the hobby ropes you in by the wallet)​
Considering the last two, are optional, $60 total out of pocket without shipping or tax to have basic setup sans engine. Say $75 for an easy to upgrade to DCC engine, 4 holiday themed cars at $25 each (high demand this time of year) and you'll be closing in on budget before shipping and taxes.

Bkubiak: I've not seen the restaurant you're talking about, but there's a Culver's in southern WI with a simple loop around the store, secured to the wall and a chain Bagger Daves I've only been to one (thought they were in IL, but just checked looks like IN, MI and MO), but they had a nice larger scale train that made a lap around the restaurant, but was ceiling suspended by wire with a nice varnished wood base and several curves throughout.


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