# Turnouts



## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

So I'm looking at my turnouts and wondering if the new stuff is any better than the old stuff. I've had most of these since the 70's and they work ok for the most part but I'd like to know if the new stuff is any better? What's your opinion? Pete


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Turnout progress*

Norgale;
You didn't mention what brand of "old turnouts" you were looking at. New turnouts often come with an electrically isolated frog. This is a help if you are, or plan to use DCC train control. It helps prevent short circuit problems. These frogs are usually wired to the contacts of a switch motor like the tortoise. That may be another change. Many modelers are now using slow speed DC motors to operate turnouts, as opposed to the old twin coil type.
The only other difference I can think of is the trend toward, smaller, more realistic rail height. Once code 100 was the norm. It's still available, but so are turnouts with code 83 and code 55 rail.
Back to the isolated frogs. If you decide to buy new turnouts for a permanent layout, I'd recommend them. Besides being "DCC friendly" they also help old, short locos get through with out stalling. Peco, a good brand offers HO turnouts with or without the isolated frog. Atlas custom line is still popular. Micro engineering also makes a very nice turnout.

Hope that helps you.

Traction Fan


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

That does help Traction Fan. I think all my turn outs are Atlas code 100. Most are #4 and a few are #6 but this brings up another question. I was thinking of DCC for train operation and DC for the turnouts operated from a separate transformer with the usual sliding buttons. I can't justify spending $40 a pop for Tortoise actuators even if they do run several TO's at a time. I can wire them in MU if I need to. Would that work ok? I haven't yet gotten involved with DCC other than reading about it here and there.


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## Chet (Aug 15, 2014)

I do agree with your comment on turnout controls. I am going to use manual controllers by hump yard purveyance at about $9 a pop. http://humpyard.com/ 

I have been using Shinohara code 70 turnouts and flex track for over 25 years. Started using it when my Kadee spike gun died for the last time, and Shinohara was the only manufacturer at the time that made code 70. Within that last year I finally managed to complete the last of the trackwork (for the time being I guess) still using Shinohara track. They're still built the same and still work great.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Pete

If you can spend a few pennies more, get Peco Insulfrog turnouts.
These a quality made, derail and trouble free. I had 20 new Atlas
and finally gave up trying to keep trains going through them without
derailing. Replaced with Pecos and never have a derail on a turnout
unless I failed to push a button.

The Insulfrogs work fine for all of my 8 DCC diesel locos and only
the short wheel base locos or those lacking all wheel power pickup
would have a power problem. 

However, Pecos have different measurements than Atlas, so approach
tracks would have to be altered if replacing an Atlas.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

One other change people didn't mention above is material. The de facto standard nowadays is nickel-silver track, which is much better for electrical connectivity and ease of maintenance than brass is. Other than the change to insulated frogs, there really isn't much difference. I think more people are making curved turnouts and higher numbered turnouts these days, but that's about it.

I would say that, unless one of your old turnouts isn't working properly anymore, it isn't worth changing them out. If you do have to, though, don't waste your time chasing the old ones on eBay, just buy new (keeping in mind that, as Don noted, the geometry probably won't be quite the same).

As far as powered turnout controls go, there are a lot of ways to do it. Tortoise motors can be found for a lot less than $40 (I see $16.89 each in a six pack, on sale for less), and you don't need to convert your entire layout at once.

Personally, I use Tam Valley Depot servo-motors to run all my turnouts from a dispatcher panel. My train operations are DCC, but my servos are powered by my old DC transformer. Cost for the servo w/pre-installed bracket, bi-color directional LED's w/ activating switch, and controller (1 per 8 servos), plus miscellaneous RC cables: about $21 per turnout, and you could knock that cost down by about 25% by doing your own mounting brackets, and another 10% by assembling the switch / LED assemblies yourself.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Will the standard Atlas TO's work with DCC?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

norgale said:


> Will the standard Atlas TO's work with DCC?


A turnout is a turnout. Some come with a remote controller, some don't. The type of controller you install will determine what they work with, but basically, any turnout will work with any kind of control, with one proviso.

If your turnouts are some older styles, with an UNINSULATED metal frog, you will have to isolate it to use the turnout with DCC, but this isn't very hard. To my knowledge, Atlas turnouts have always had a plastic frog, so this won't be a problem.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks for that CT. All my TO's are insulated and work ok for the most part. Just wondered if the new ones were superior to the old ones in any way. I have both old and semi-new so I guess I can't do much better without spending a lot of money which I don't have. One of my biggest problems is car weight. That seems to have more to do with successful backing up than anything else. The heavier the better up to a point and metal wheels are the most worth while investment I have made so far. They really improve performance. I'm still undecided as the the couplers.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

norgale said:


> Thanks for that CT. All my TO's are insulated and work ok for the most part. I'm still undecided as the the couplers.


If they're working ok why change them? The couplers should be a no brainer - Kadees.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm planning down the road Cyclops. I'm planning a park model home and a 30x10 room added on one side for my hobby room. I need room for my once in a life time layout and for building ship models which is my other hobby. When I do this layout I want it to be as trouble free as possible so I was looking at new turnouts if the new is any better than the old. I'll need about fifty including the yards.
The Kadees are good but if you need a large amount of them they get pricey. Same way with metal wheels but you have to bite the bullet sometimes. Tell you the truth I kinda like the horn/hook type even though they don't look like the real thing. They work. Pete


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

DonR said:


> Pete
> 
> If you can spend a few pennies more, get Peco Insulfrog turnouts.
> These a quality made, derail and trouble free. I had 20 new Atlas
> ...


Code 83 or code 100? Peco code 83 are much more expensive than their code 100, and nearly double the cost of Atlas code 83 turnouts. Not just a few pennies, about $10 more per turnout - that adds up really fast if you have a good sized yard to build. Would I rather have a yard full of Peco code 83 turnouts? You betcha! But I can't afford to do that until my daughter is out of college in a couple years. Maybe on my next layout.:stroke:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Couplers and wheels are two more things that I would just leave alone until you see signs of trouble. Then upgrade. You spread the expense out over a long time that way.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The RP (Recommended Practice) for car weight is 1 oz plus 1/2 oz per inch of car length. I find that works well.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I think Pete has code 100. 

I just checked on Amazon. Both Peco and Atlas code 100s are selling for
essentially the same price 

Peco Insulfrog is 100% better than the Atlas.

Don


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Peco code 100 is a different ballgame cost wise, which is why I asked. If my track was code 100, I'd go that way too. Unfortunately Peco code 83 is crazy expensive - FYI, is a relatively new line they added maybe 9-10 years ago to add a finer scale line to their brand. The code 83 track is American style, while the code 100 is modeled after British track, but the differences are something that some don't notice.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Don it's not better if you have to finagle hooking the track to it. I'm not looking for any extra work.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

norgale said:


> Don it's not better if you have to finagle hooking the track to it. I'm not looking for any extra work.


Then you haven't been reading the responses carefully enough. No two manufacturers use quite the same geometry when producing their turnouts. The only way to avoid additional trackwork is to replace like with like.

Unless you're willing to do some cutting and fitting, don't waste your time worrying about what's better; you need to replace what you already have with an identical piece.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Pete

CTvalley is very correct. The measurements of the Peco are different
from Atlas, so Pecos are not a direct replacement. You would have
to realign your tracks slightly. However, if you did, regular joiners will
work to connect to Code 100 Atlas track. Believe me, Pete,
the lack of derails and other problems is worth the extra
effort especially since the cost is about the same. You could
continue to use the Atlas twin coil undertable motors.

Don


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Another vote for Peco+a possible cost saving*

Norgale;
I agree with DonR's recommendation of Peco turnouts. One Peco feature I did not see mentioned is their locking spring. Peco builds a bistable spring into their turnouts that holds the point against the stock rail when they are thrown left or right. This is completely independent of any switch machine even being attached. For this reason they basically can be operated manually without a switch machine at all. No tortoise=no cost. They also lend themselves easily to remote push/pull rod control using music wire in brass tubing.

Just another option for you. 

Traction Fan


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

We are talking about things I have never seen before. Like how is it that Atlas track won't hook up to Peco TO's? I mean 1:87 is 1:87 no matter how you cut it. Does anyone have any pictures of what we are talking about here? I don't think I have ever seen a Peco TO.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

We're not talking scale here but gauge. If your track is code 100 rail (rail height) then it will accept Peco code 100 turnouts.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Pete

I have a room size layout of code 100 Atlas flex track happily
joined to 20 or so Peco Insulfrog turnouts.

The hobby shop here doesn't carry them. I've bought all
mine on line.

Here are several Peco models pictured. 

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_3k1ioqgtrw_b

The prices in this link are higher than what I saw yesterday where they
were offered at the same price as Atlas.

Don


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Cycleops said:


> We're not talking scale here but gauge. If your track is code 100 rail (rail height) then it will accept Peco code 100 turnouts.


And it's not really gauge we're talking about either......rail height (and profile) is the key here.....


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## riogrande (Apr 28, 2012)

Even rail height isn't major problem. You can connect code 100 track to code 83 or code 83 to code 70. 

The key is to just match up the top of the rail so it is even. This can be done by using Atlas transition rail joiners or make you own by taking a standard rail joiner and cut the top out of the middle so you can bend a step into the rail joiner, allowing the bottom of the rail to be lower on one side vs. the other, keeping the tops of the rail even.

Atlas sells them in packages like that, but I make my own by just copying what Atlas did using my Demel, and quickly grind out the top part of an ordinary rail joiner, just in the middle.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

norgale said:


> We are talking about things I have never seen before. Like how is it that Atlas track won't hook up to Peco TO's? I mean 1:87 is 1:87 no matter how you cut it. Does anyone have any pictures of what we are talking about here? I don't think I have ever seen a Peco TO.


An automotive oil filter is just an automotive oil filter no matter how you cut it, too, but you don't just run out to Pep Boys, buy any old filter, and shove it in.

There are 3 things you have to consider, rail code, tie thickness, and geometry (the actual shape of the turnout). Unless all three are exactly equal, you will have to do a little adapting to get the new one to fit. HO track of different codes can be made to fit together, but you will have to shim or modify the lower code rail to line up vertically with the larger rail. Likewise tie thickness. Atlas track has thick ties, other brands are thinner, so although the rail height (code) may be the same, you might still have to shim the pieces to get the tops of the rails to line up. So far, pretty easy stuff.

However, different manufacturers also use different shapes. Even Atlas turnouts are all over the map when comparing the diverging leg to the tangent (straight) one. The generic "snap switches" are much shorter, the 22" radius snap switches are about even, the Customlines are a bit longer. Pecos legs are about the same length, but the whole turnout is slightly longer than it's Atlas equivalent.

Try going over to the Walthers home page and comparing the pictures of the various turnouts and it should become very clear. 

So, yes, they're all HO scale turnouts, but only a straight "like for like" replacement is a guaranteed drop in.


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