# Lionel Humpback Motor -- buff job



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hello campers!

I've oozed back from the muck, and offered a little heartfelt hello to the Forum gang over in the Lionel 1508 / 1511 thread. I fell off the edge of the Earth there for a while, but gladly, Teledoc tossed me a lifeline!

And to show that my hands haven't been completely idle, here's a quick TJ project ...

I've always liked the "lines" of the Lionel prewar humpback motor, but never had a loco that used one. But then again, even if I did, what fun would it be to hide that sexy motor inside some bland loco shell? So ...

Just for fun, I ebay-nabbed a mangy humpback motor last week. The ebay photos showed it to by "weathered", but, from what I could tell, mostly intact, including (importantly) solid wheels with no dry-rot.

So, for $23.50, I scored another addict's fix, and spent some time this past weekend poking under the hood. Happily, all parts where there / intact, and a quick "jump start" power supply showed that the armature windings and field windings were both functional.

I pulled the weels (slowly, by hand), and then went to town on a parts strip, clean-job (Goo Gone, q-tips, etc.) and a Dremel buff and polish. I opted to keep the original paint on the wheel spokes ... a bit of fun history, there.

Everything went back together nicely, and this little baby now hums around my test track. Only for a bit, though ... it's going front-and-center on my man-cave display shelf. That humpback design is a piece of art, I think.

Question: Who can clue me in on what version / year of humpback motor this might be? Early 1920?

Some Before and After pics.

Cheers,

TJ


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Oh come on now TJ............Type 4 humpback, produced 1918-1924. That was too easy to answer.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Haa ... I figured the easy-money bet should have been on you, Jerry.

But ...

Educate me ... I'm not very savvy on humpbacks ...

I know this is "early style" by the curvy brush holder (later versions had the rectangular brush holder). But, in more detail, what distinguishes Type 4 from others? I think (???) there were some subtle brush style difference, even with that curvy brush-holder plate?

OK ... here's another one for you ...

Motor as found had two wires from the pickup plate: one to armature brush, the other hanging out in space, to something long gone. Likely a headlight for the long-lost loco shell? I doubt it was a manual switch, as the wires into the brushes didn't seem to be set up for that.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Yup, a headlight wire, and basically those style motors came down to having different brush plates, as the major differences. Grab your book that I passed on, and go to page 32 & 33. There is a plethora of info in that book, but some things require checking other books, to clarify differences, or year of manufacture, and such.


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

The motor looks absolutely beautiful, TJ. Hope the one I am just starting to work on will turn out half that nice.

swede


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks! Will do, Doc!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Swede. Many thanks. You have the whole kit-n-caboodle, including a manual switch, I'm happy to see. Enjoy the fun.

For the shiny buff, I'm a big fan of the Dremel stainless brush, followed by a "burnishing wheel" mounted to a bench grinder ... discussion of that on the Spike 259E thread.

Cheers,

TJ


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## rrswede (Jan 6, 2012)

TJ, I also use the stainless Dremel brand wheel for cleanup. More spendy than others but haven't found any near as good. On occasion, I have used a polishing stick and buffing wheel to really put a shine on parts but have never done that to a motor frame. How did you get to the inside frame walls?

swede


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Tj, I'll give you 24.50 for it it looks new, like all your other stuff. Good to here from you!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Swede -- don't look too closely _inside_ the sidewalls of the motor frame. I did the best I could with GooGone, q-tips, and the beloved Dremel stainless brush to clean up where I could reach, but the gizmo reach only goes so far. And, the frame was so firm and tight, that I dare not consider pulling it apart during the redo service. A poor man's approach, I guess!

SJM -- always a pleasure! My crazed persistance paid off, I guess ... I'm pulling in profits already!

Thanks, guys!

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

WOW, I thought you might have gotten lost at sea TJ! 

Welcome back, I hope you'll stay awhile.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Agree thats a beautiful looking motor, i cannot figure out why one of your pick up rollers has groove wear on each side of roller and the middle of that roller looks like there is no wear or very little ? 
On mine and all others i have seen have one groove from wear from middle rail.

Have several 156 electrics and these humpbacks are nice running motors looks like yours with exception mine has ears on each end slotted for the trucks making it a 4-4-4 configuration.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It looks shiner than new motors, that's for sure!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

GRJ, When TJ gets into restoring his motors, he spends a lot of time using stainless steel brushes, to clean off all the old crud, and layers of different degrees of rust. Then he follows it with the "Burnishing Wheel", that he was so graciously given from a short auction, a few years ago. The "Burnishing Wheel" was originally from a user on this forum (forget who right this minute), but he worked in the Ortho field, and the wheels were used to polish Prosthetic pieces. The one that TJ won, was an older used wheel, but still has a lot of good use left, for working on model trains. You and I know how meticulous TJ gets into restortions. I just which I had the access to some of his tools, and the space to work on them. I always admire his work, and finished products.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree Jerry, he does go crazy with the buffing wheel, the stuff looks like new.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

John, I wish I had some of his patience to get the desired results he winds up with. I can only try my best to compete with him. My foray into the Tinplate, is solely because of the admiration of his restorations, and finding how easy some of these "Junkers" can be restored. I am not in any position to venture into the new locos, electronics, and all the newly released items. The learning curve is too steep, to catch up, plus the investment it would take. I got back into the hobby, with a Postwar mindset, and just trying to get a few old trains running again.

With the help of a multitude of forum users posts, I got the old stuff running again. The Tinplate seemed the next step, and it has been loads of fun, getting old relics, and restoring them back to running condition. I don't have the space or the time to build a layout, so I found my tiny little niche, with tinkering in the Prewar stuff, and researching the beginnings of Lionel.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You certainly have become a fountain of knowledge about some of the pre-war stuff.  I admit it, I'm a sucker for the modern stuff.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I agree Jerry, he does go crazy with the buffing wheel, the stuff looks like new.


like he has one buffing wheel, its probably more like a station with 6 grinders going at once 

doc, is the premier guy to find the information, that's why I drop the Tele from his name. He's got a doctorate in trains

Tj and T man are the technical repair specialists, if they can't get it to work ,it wont.

GRJ , you are the electronic expert, ( I do think you hide some of the other skills, or just find the electronic aspects of trains more exciting) nothing you can't adapt, even if the parts are made in China 


these are the super mods of the model train forum, together forming a formidable team fighting the good fight to keep the trains running on time:appl:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

John, The Prewar side of the hobby is becoming a forgotten aspect. I never in my wildest dreams thought that I would enjoy researching and understanding all the original beginnings of what the hobby has become. From the simple beginnings of J.L. Cohen creating a simple store display, to trains that can be remotely controlled, with actual train sounds, and track talk. The other upgrades to smoke generators, etc., have made the hobby whatever you want to make of it.

I was subtlety pulled into the Prewar, and to understand a lot of the beginnings, required getting books, and constant reading to get a good grasp on the early stuff. I have a huge investment in probably every Good Prewar catalog, books, and also, doing Google searches, for what may be missed. I just bided my time in finding the right books/catalogs, covering the Prewar, and bought all of them at fair prices. With the researching I have done over the past year to year and a half, I can probably answer anyone's question. I just thrive on the researching.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jerry, it's a great thing you do, and a lot of us are appreciative of your talents. If I have a pre-war question, I know where to go. What makes this hobby so great is there is so many facets to it that anyone can find a niche that keeps them interested.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

You fella's if i may say are full of wisdom each in his own way in this hobby and enjoy that in the posts i read of yours.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Dieseler, The majority of our users are glad to share their talents, and make this forum the best around, hand down. I just don't understand all the "Guests" that read this forum, and appear to be afraid to join. There shouldn't be anything to fear, and if it is lack of knowledge and feeling 'stupid', that should be the least of their worries. No one gets ridiculed here, and no question is Stupid. We all started with baby steps, before we could walk, so as a guest, make the plunge. You are more than welcome here.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

teledoc said:


> Dieseler, The majority of our users are glad to share their talents, and make this forum the best around, hand down. I just don't understand all the "Guests" that read this forum, and appear to be afraid to join. There shouldn't be anything to fear, and if it is lack of knowledge and feeling 'stupid', that should be the least of their worries. No one gets ridiculed here, and no question is Stupid. We all started with baby steps, before we could walk, so as a guest, make the plunge. You are more than welcome here.


I do make some plunges when a question is posed that i can answer from experience mainly in pre and postwar as i have quite a lot of engines of those era's and run them often in a sorta of rotation.
Do run some modern but only a few pieces and cannot trouble shoot them if needed to for they would need outside help unlike my pre and postwar lionel and marx that i can fix like most here as well.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thank you all, guys, for the kind comments above ... much appreciated.

In regards to Dieseler's keen eye:



Dieseler said:


> i cannot figure out why one of your pick up rollers has groove wear on each side of roller and the middle of that roller looks like there is no wear or very little ?
> On mine and all others i have seen have one groove from wear from middle rail.


I noticed the very same thing, and am as perplexed as you. One roller is groove-worn, the other is not. Perhaps one was replaced at some point? 

Ahhh ... if only these trains could talk!



TJ


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

tjcruiser said:


> Thank you all, guys, for the kind comments above ... much appreciated.
> 
> In regards to Dieseler's keen eye:
> 
> ...


Yes the one roller no wear obviously was replaced at some point in time.
Its the grooved roller that confuses me as you see there is a groove on each side of that particular roller which i never seen before on a roller wear like that as rollers always wear toward the middle and not on the end as they ride straight on the middle rail its the middle portion that always gets the wear. Your middle of roller has no wear and wear happens in one part not 2 opposite parts of the same roller and to boot its on each end of it not a normal singular groove i cant figure that out.

Similar to the pickup sliding shoes wear occurs toward the middle but because of a heavy bend in them or a less bend downwards the wear can be toward back of slider or front of slider but always near or in middle.

Also be careful with that roller bracket that holds the roller itself as i see a crack by the protruding stud head that holds the roller bracket itself on one side and will eventually work its way over to the other side of stud holding the roller bracket if run and left as is.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> I noticed the very same thing, and am as perplexed as you. One roller is groove-worn, the other is not. Perhaps one was replaced at some point?


It's that old four-rail track they used to use.  The other roller was replaced.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

John, What 4 rail track are you referring to? That's a new one on me, and the grooves are odd looking with them being off center. I have seen evidence of the same type of roller wear, on Postwar locos, but it isn't really common to occur. 

Was there something different with the center rail, with your 4 rail track you mentioned. Any images of that track??


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Jerry, it was just a joke.  I'd have to make the image of the track as it doesn't exist. I've never seen that wear pattern, I can't imagine how it happens.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

John, I didn't think that Lionel every made a 4 rail track, and I definitely couldn't visualize anything that would have caused that wear patter on the roller. The other roller definitely has been replaced. I do know that American Flyer did make a 4 rail track at one time, and Hoge had the first legitimate 5 rail track, which was needed on only the Shovelnose Streamliner set, which I did own at one time. The two extra rails on the Hoge were for a Bell and a Buzzer arrangement in that loco only. We can ponder how that wear pattern occurs, until the sun comes up, and never come up with the exact cause..........LOL


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

No doubt about it odd. Then TJ seems to manage to find some of these oddballs and bring them back to life.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It's that old four-rail track they used to use.  The other roller was replaced.


I have to stop reading the forum when i'm drinking coffee !


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Do I detect caffeine through the nasal passages!!!!!!!!SNORT!


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

tjcruiser said:


> Swede -- don't look too closely _inside_ the sidewalls of the motor frame. I did the best I could with GooGone, q-tips, and the beloved Dremel stainless brush to clean up where I could reach, but the gizmo reach only goes so far. And, the frame was so firm and tight, that I dare not consider pulling it apart during the redo service. A poor man's approach, I guess!
> 
> SJM -- always a pleasure! My crazed persistance paid off, I guess ... I'm pulling in profits already!
> 
> ...


Yes but soda pop now that really burns.

Anyways was thinking again about that roller , perhaps the crack in the stud holding the roller bracket itself is giving roller a lot of movement if ts loose enough and wore roller on 1 side then who ever owned the engine flipped it around and it wore again.

I know they usually wear in middle area not off to the far side but its the best guess i could come up with.

Always said if these older pieces somehow could talk they would have some interesting stories of where they been and so forth.


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## SoShoresGuy (Jan 23, 2013)

Fantastic work as always, TJ. Your work always amazes me and gives me inspiration. Nice to see that you are back.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Great Job TJ! 

A good looking motor! :thumbsup:


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