# Help needed on transformer buying



## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

I was able to kinda get a start on model railroading with my son . I bought a early 90s Lionel line O27 set . I’m thinking the transformer isn’t doing what it needs too . I found a Lionel 6-32930 ZW Controller with Two 180W Transformers And was wondering if this would be a good investment.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

BigSteve77 said:


> I was able to kinda get a start on model railroading with my son . I bought a early 90s Lionel line O27 set . I’m thinking the transformer isn’t doing what it needs too . I found a Lionel 6-32930 ZW Controller with Two 180W Transformers And was wondering if this would be a good investment.


Hi, welcome to the site.
How big is your layout? Or how big do you plan to build it?
What transformer do you have now?
What is the problem you are encountering?


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

BigSteve77 said:


> I was able to kinda get a start on model railroading with my son . I bought a early 90s Lionel line O27 set . I’m thinking the transformer isn’t doing what it needs too . I found a Lionel 6-32930 ZW Controller with Two 180W Transformers And was wondering if this would be a good investment.





Big Ed said:


> Hi, welcome to the site.
> How big is your layout? Or how big do you plan to build it?
> What transformer do you have now?
> What is the problem you are encountering?


So I have now the old tubular o27 track 8 curved and 4 straight tracks . I have no idea what kind of transformer it is . It has a single dial for speed and two push buttons for sound and direction. It’s power indicator light flashes when you try to operate it . Even if there is nothing on the track . As far as size goes I’m open to whatever.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Sounds like you may have a Lionel CW80 or one of the very similar variations.
The blinking light is telling you your wiring or track is shorted.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

OK, let's start over.
#1 properly identify what you have. Either take and post some pictures or flip over that transformer and read the label. We need that to help you and worse, you need that to know and download the manual which clearly you haven't done.
#2 Don't even think about buying another transformer until your skills, your knowledge, and your research is better. Don't be another person to throw money away. Worse, you buy that massive transformer and you'll find that short- when you burn something up. I have an entire several point discussion you probably are not ready for on that ZW-C transformer 6-32930 .
#3 Get yourself a meter. You are trying to troubleshoot blind here without it. You need to know how to identify a short using a meter (Ohms/Resistance or diode test), and measure Voltage after you have ensured the track and wiring to the transformer is NOT shorted. You check the track and wiring with the transformer unhooked for a short, and then once that is done and no short is found, you check the transformer variable voltage out not connected to anything, and then connect it back to the track. Again, the blinking light is a warning, you should probably pay attention and know what that means VS just thinking the transformer is "bad".
#4 Transformer is NOT sized by how big or small your track is. Transformers power trains and accessories- track is just a form of wiring to get the power to the train. So no, you don't need or want 18V @ 10A to power a single track of 027 starter set. Again, this is an exercise in know your expected load, know what future loads are, and right size your system unless you just get some insane deal or giveaway. Otherwise, you are throwing money around. Worse, when you oversize the transformer and haven't added or thought about current protection (circuit breakers, fuses) your likelyhood of then burning something up is increased. Yes, transformers often have some form of circuit breaker or fuses- however, they are last resort and protect the transformer- not your train, not your wiring.


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Jetguy said:


> OK, let's start over.
> #1 properly identify what you have. Either take and post some pictures or flip over that transformer and read the label. We need that to help you and worse, you need that to know and download the manual which clearly you haven't done.
> #2 Don't even think about buying another transformer until your skills, your knowledge, and your research is better. Don't be another person to throw money away. Worse, you buy that massive transformer and you'll find that short- when you burn something up. I have an entire several point discussion you probably are not ready for on that ZW-C transformer 6-32930 .
> #3 Get yourself a meter. You are trying to troubleshoot blind here without it. You need to know how to identify a short using a meter (Ohms/Resistance or diode test), and measure Voltage after you have ensured the track and wiring to the transformer is NOT shorted. You check the track and wiring with the transformer unhooked for a short, and then once that is done and no short is found, you check the transformer variable voltage out not connected to anything, and then connect it back to the track. Again, the blinking light is a warning, you should probably pay attention and know what that means VS just thinking the transformer is "bad".
> #4 Transformer is NOT sized by how big or small your track is. Transformers power trains and accessories- track is just a form of wiring to get the power to the train. So no, you don't need or want 18V @ 10A to power a single track of 027 starter set. Again, this is an exercise in know your expected load, know what future loads are, and right size your system unless you just get some insane deal or giveaway. Otherwise, you are throwing money around. Worse, when you oversize the transformer and haven't added or thought about current protection (circuit breakers, fuses) your likelyhood of then burning something up is increased. Yes, transformers often have some form of circuit breaker or fuses- however, they are last resort and protect the transformer- not your train, not your wiring.


I have checked the continuity of the track with my meter and it’s showing it is ok , as for the wiring , it’s the two wired from the transformer to the Lionel CTC lockon that clips to the track .


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

OK, so you have a meter, what is the transformer putting out by itself not attached to the track or lockon? and again, what model is it?


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

If I answer your other question- is this (ZW-C) a good investment, at the risk of offending, no, I say that's not a good investment considering 027 track and typical starter sets.
Worse, specifically noted problems with that transformer include not being Legacy compatible or needing an upgrade processor chip that is no longer available, the fact the handle potentiometer brackets might be weak plastic and the gears can get out of sync- so yeah, my rule is to not pay more than the 2 180watt bricks is worth. To do a proper analysis, I've have to know what you are paying for it, to then offset the known potential problems, and while Legacy is probably not a near future problem, the handle/gearing/bracket is considering you want to get your son involved and you need variable power right now.
I want to see you stay in the hobby, not spend money on things that can bite you or be regrets, and take money away from buying better trains and equipment. Especially if problem one at the moment is your current transformer is showing overload before even train one is on the track.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

One example of a ZW-C discussion that outlined a few of my talking points ZW-C Thoughts


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Ok . So I miss fast track like I had on my set . Continuity isn’t an issue . It was a small black rubber isolator that wasn’t on right causing the short.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Sorry for multiple posts, I am trying to work with you and help.


> It has a single dial for speed and two push buttons for sound and direction. It’s power indicator light flashes when you try to operate it


Here is a 40W Powermax style








However, you said "Dial" and that makes me think more like this?


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Now for the transformer idea


Jetguy said:


> Sorry for multiple posts, I am trying to work with you and help.
> 
> Here is a 40W Powermax style
> View attachment 565998
> ...


thats him. 


Jetguy said:


> Sorry for multiple posts, I am trying to work with you and help.
> 
> Here is a 40W Powermax style
> View attachment 565998
> ...


This is one like I had that is no longer in my possession


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

I was trying to find the other modern dial style with whistle/horn, bell, and direction buttons- couldn't think of the name to save my life.
*Lionel 6-12938 PS-1 Powerstation-Powerhouse Set*


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Now for the transformer for future use as we start adding additional track and such . We saw a post war zw at our local , kinda, hobby shop that we both loved . 275w really awesome made you feel cool to operate and looked like it could handle my plans for a layout . Would that also be ill advise?


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

BigSteve77 said:


> Now for the transformer for future use as we start adding additional track and such . We saw a post war zw at our local , kinda, hobby shop that we both loved . 275w really awesome made you feel cool to operate and looked like it could handle my plans for a layout . Would that also be ill advise?


Nothing wrong with a good rebuilt original ZW and they are well built to last. Key points on that serviced rebuild are, the power cord replaced, the transformer core checked, rollers on each handle or arm replaced, whistle diodes checked, and last, the common U terminals checked for connection failures to the common copper strip. Again, they are good transformers.
That said, caution, it's basically a welder. The circuit breaker inside is meant to protect the transformer, not your wiring, not your trains.
Recommending at a minimum you add either fuses or better resetting circuit breakers externally to the outputs between the transformer and the load and your wiring.

Again, the ZW-C is not the worst thing ever, but it's all about the cost to known issues ratio, and no matter what your power solution, as you get bigger transformers- you need better protection from shorts and kickback voltage spikes as you get more advanced and electronics in the trains.

FWIW, I too like Fastrack.

Also, 2 alternative transformers

Williams and Atlas made a nice 80 watt unit that is somewhat easy to find. This uses conventional wiper on a core method of varying voltage and has whistle and bell buttons. By modern production, this is pretty good. BTW, quick search, one is exceptionally cheap today at TRAINZ









My other favorite, a K-line Powerchief 120 watt.
This is electronically varying the voltage and we get get into chopped wave discussion but honestly, these have served me well.









I'll be honest, not a huge fan of the Lionel modern transformers. They produce chopped wave and fail often enough and cost is high. Just in general, starting out, glad I went with alternatives and still to this day with a fleet of MTH, Lionel, Williams, and so on, they all work on the 2 above. Now yes, both my home layout and the club track is powered by Z4000 MTH transformers and the price has gone up on those making them less ideal money wise. My test bench transformer is MTH Z1000 with Z controller.


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

Circuit breaker discussion search Search results for query: circuit breaker


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Thanks for all the help. Kids happy , dads happy . I can see I have some thinking to do on my power supply . I did notice they sell kits for the zw transformer for repair, so that’s a plus . I’ll just need to figure out how to protect everything else lol


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

BigSteve77 said:


> Thanks for all the help. Kids happy , dads happy . I can see I have some thinking to do on my power supply . I did notice they sell kits for the zw transformer for repair, so that’s a plus . I’ll just need to figure out how to protect everything else lol


OK, so..........how big do you think your layout will get in the future?
I guess the track is used? 
How much did he want for the ZW?
That is all I have for my layout, but I have others to power accessories and lights.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Of all of the transformers Lionel has made, it seems the ZW-C is the one to avoid. I have seen too many fail and pretty sure parts are not available. Most all of the Post War transformers are reliable but may need rebuilding due to age and miles put on by previous owners. The problem I see for those starting out is there are few new mid level transformers. The MTH Z1000 would fall in that class.

Pete


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Norton said:


> Of all of the transformers Lionel has made, it seems the ZW-C is the one to avoid. I have seen too many fail and pretty sure parts are not available. Most all of the Post War transformers are reliable but may need rebuilding due to age and miles put on by previous owners. The problem I see for those starting out is there are few new mid level transformers. The MTH Z1000 would fall in that class.
> 
> Pete


Well I want to have something there to expand to a two to three train layout with accessories.


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

BigSteve77 said:


> Well I want to have something there to expand to a two to three train layout with accessories.


The ones I’m seeing are anything from 180-350


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## ERIE610 (Jan 19, 2015)

Another Lionel transformer you could give consideration to is the Postwar KW 190. I have several that work just fine. As with the ZW Units condition, condition, condition. Parts are still readily available. The same precautions taken with the ZW applies to the KW 190. The KW ,IMHO. is a more reasonably priced unit than the ZW.


Olé Inter Web description pasted below.

This is a* Lionel KW 190* Watt 2 Train Transformer with Whistle. The KW is Lionel‘s second largest Post-war Era transformer and has a variety of nice features, including dual controls, whistle and direction controls for both controllers, a circuit breaker with overload light, fixed voltage outputs for accessories and a nice compact attractive casing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have to go with Pete on the ZW-C. I've owned a couple of them, and I even upgraded them with the Legacy compatible uP chip. However, I just never got a warm fuzzy feeling from them, and I'm glad to be running with my nice simple 180W bricks, my bench has the MRC AH501 for power.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Here's a *Link *to "Traz4mrs", a reputable source for used transformers. He doesn't list any postwar ZWs or KWs at the moment. You should email him to find out restorations in progress. To get you going, a PW 1033 / 1044 has plenty of power for a single train train and some accessories.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The difficult thing about recommending transformers is not that only a few are capable but rather most all could be used here. A Post War ZW will run at least two Post War trains easily but also at least 4 modern trains as they draw much less current. The other option is using a number of smaller transformers that can be had in the 30-50 dollar range 90-175 watts each. Downside of a PW transformer is no bell button and slow breaker but for starter sets thats a minor issue which can be addressed.

Pete


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

I may be more confused now than before lol .


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

I’m wanting to run modern stuff as well ……. Lord what have I gotten into lol


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

For modern trains, the MTH Z-1000 is a decent transformer that won't break the bank.


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

beachhead2 said:


> For modern trains, the MTH Z-1000 is a decent transformer that won't break the bank.


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

BigSteve77 said:


> View attachment 566121


So this is junk do not buy ?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Steve, it isn't junk necessarily. But I don't think it will suit your purposes. As stated previously, they don't play well with Legacy unless they have a chip modification/upgrade. And the handles have a known issue that can develop. If you're only running postwar right now, I think it will work for you currently. The MTH Z-1000 I linked to will get you going cheaper. If you outgrow the MTH, you could use it to control accessories and get a different transformer at that time.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I went through the same thing three years ago. I owned the ZW-C. I sold it. I still own the Z-1000.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

If you're dead set on that ZW-C, those 180W bricks that come with it are worth about $100 each. So if you can get that set for around $200, you'll be in good shape even if that controller head-unit breaks.


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

Thanks for all the good advice .


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

As was stated earlier, unless you know what you're doing (re: TVS diodes and external breakers), it's best to use a modern transformer for modern engines. The postwar stuff has plenty of power but it could fry more sensitive modern electronics. A problem you'll run into right now is the top of the line transformers from both Lionel and MTH are currently unavailable due to covid shortages. That's another reason I suggested the Z-1000. It's basic, modern, cheap, and _available_!


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

BigSteve77 said:


> So this is junk do not buy ?


The pic show's modern power bricks and a post war ZW transformer. They do not operate together.

I'll restate my suggestion. Get a small transformer capable of running your starter set. Either a small modern transformer in earlier posts or a small postwar transformer.. You can always grow your power as your interest in the hobby increases.

And just to be sure, on your current transformer, disconnect the wires at the transformer posts. Then measure output at the posts as you vary the throttle with your meter. The model of your current transformer would help - pic.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Mike, that’s the ZW-C. That’s what it looks like.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The problem with a ZW-C are the electronics. Its those electronics that fail. It was designed to operate like an old ZW with the handles but also to be controlled by a TMCC Cab1 so you can control track voltage with your handheld. The bricks that come with it are pretty solid but they can not control a conventional engine unless you got something to vary track voltage like a TPC (track power controller or Powermaster) with them or use them with command control engines only.

Pete


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

beachhead2 said:


> Mike, that’s the ZW-C. That’s what it looks like.


My bad. Now I see the differences.


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## BigSteve77 (Sep 6, 2021)

beachhead2 said:


> If you're dead set on that ZW-C, those 180W bricks that come with it are worth about $100 each. So if you can get that set for around $200, you'll be in good shape even if that controller head-unit breaks.


No , they are asking like 385


Millstonemike said:


> The pic show's modern power bricks and a post war ZW transformer. They do not operate together.
> 
> I'll restate my suggestion. Get a small transformer capable of running your starter set. Either a small modern transformer in earlier posts or a small postwar transformer.. You can always grow your power as your interest in the hobby increases.
> 
> And just to be sure, on your current transformer, disconnect the wires at the transformer posts. Then measure output at the posts as you vary the throttle with your meter. The model of your current transformer would help - pic.


I have already fixed the issues with the current set . It was an isolator issue in the center track . It runs now .


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## KBeyer (Jun 29, 2020)

I have seven postwar ZW transformers powering my layout. They are very solid and are a bargain, in my opinion, compared to other power options out there. They used to run $1/watt, but prices have really come down on postwar transformers. I’ve had most of them, but the ZW is the best option.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Personally, I'd consider, as some have suggested, either getting a refurbished postwar transformer like the ZW or KW from a reputable dealer, and use it with a TVS (transient voltage suppressor) in the line, and over current protection (fast acting circuit breaker) if that is within your expertise or that of someone you know. This is a good bang for the buck and safe when done properly. 

If you want something more modern, it will be more expensive. Personally, I'd stay away from out of production transformers (like the ZW-C) for which parts may not be available, or transformers from a company (MTH) that is on the way to oblivion in all likelihood (Z-1000). I realize there are those who think MTH is here for the long haul (5-10 years) but I'm not one of them based upon recent performance and statements.

Lionel makes some pretty good but expensive larger transformers in the GW and ZW-L. The somewhat maligned CW-80 is actually a pretty good smaller transformer, although older versions did not play well with MTH PS2 locos. The advantage of buying something that is current production Lionel is that it's likely repairable for the next 5-10 years. The advantage of buying something postwar is that once refurbished, it's probably repairable for the next 50 years, give or take.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

The *single* most expensive O-gauge item I have purchased to date is a Lionel ZW-L. Every transformer I've purchased before that, left me *still* wanting bigger and better. After buying several progressively bigger and respectively more expensive transformers, and still not being satisfied, I finally bit the bullet and purchased a ZW-L. While I initially choked on doing so, in retrospect, it is the *best *O-gauge purchase I've made to date, bar none. And all the other transformers I previously purchased? They're currently sitting on a shelf, collecting dust. 

Funny, but while most guys seem to scream bloody murder at the thought of buying a ZW-L . While at the same time they seem to have no problem with ordering every last road number and road name of Lionel's latest and greatest $1500~$2000+ each BTO Legacy steam & diesel offerings . Oh well. While some have no problem on blowing a small fortune on their trains, I'd rather spend mine on a good power supply, and then scrape the bottom of the barrel for good locomotive & rolling stock deals. To each their own, I guess. 

While I *wouldn't* recommend a ZW-L for a rank beginner, I *would* recommend that someone who has been in the hobby for a year or two, and starting to buy more and more trains, and thinking they will be liking it and staying with it for awhile, then go ahead and start saving a few bucks here and there for a ZW-L. Nothing screams "Lionel" like a good, modern-day ZW-L! I don't think they would be disappointed at all. As a matter of fact, I tune in to several O-gauge forum frequently, and can't say I *ever* recall seeing a post where someone regretted buying a ZW-L. 

But that's my opinion. Just like the throttle setting of a ZW-L in conventional mode, yours may vary.


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