# Lionel postwar 682 Drive wheels wobble



## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Ok sorry again guys for the issues. But my dads postwar trains are keeping me more busy then my old trans am. lol Ok so like I said hes a perfectionist. So upon purchase of this 682. He replaced the Front and Rear Truck assembly with postwar trucks. He didnt like the ones it came with. Because every turn the front trucks would derail. Now that everything's replaced. He know noticed the drive wheels are wobbling as it goes down the track. So I took a screwdriver, laid it on top of the wheels on the flange and 3 of the 4 drive wheels are uneven. How is that even possible. And whats the fix to this. Are all the drive wheels supposed to be uneven. Or definitely not. Any information will greatly help me. All you guys are extremely knowledgeable with these postwar trains. Thanks again.Remember if its a good deal and its on ebay, theres usually a reason for it. His perfectionism is driving me crazy, but hes my dad and Its my duty. lol So any information will help. If you want pictures, just ask. thanks again 

Greg


----------



## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

*No such thing as hopeless...*

Hi Greg - no one's dad should still be driving them crazy - to an NHL or NFL game, sure, but crazy, to have to cater to, is an option. That said, I'm guessing you're also having some fun trying to restore his stuff for him. The obvious thing that comes to mind with your #682 is that it must have been dropped at some point for the drive wheels to be noticeably out of kilter. This is not a good thing. I know there are people out there with wheel pullers and ways of straightening bent frames, but they would really have to know what they're doing. Replacing the pilot and trailing trucks was a good thought, but now you probably understand why the wobbliness. The 682 was/is the most collectible postwar version of the turbines because it came with extra running gear at the front of the loco, plus a factory-painted white stripe that no other postwar turbine sported.

I'll leave it to the more knowledgeable (GRJohn, T-Man, Teledoc and others) to suggest possible fixes, and also to suggest calling Jeff at The Train Tender. He knows postwar Lionel inside out and can supply you with any part plus valuable advice, if you need it.


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

For starters the 682 is basically identical to the other turbines (671/681/2020), to the point if you look inside the shell for the cast number every single one has the same number of 671-3, whether it is 1946 smoke bulb version all the way up to last Postwar production in 1952. The only difference of the shells was how it was trimmed (number stamp, extra boss cast in to 682 shell for oiler linkage). If the wobble is so noticeable, you probably have a worn bushing on one of the axles. The way to test it, is take the side rods off both sides. Take one axle set and see how much movement you have by wiggling the wheels up and down or forward and backward. Do each axle separately, one at a time, to see if any have excess play. If one or more axles show excessive play, the bushing that are inserted into the frame will need to be replaced. The parts are available from 99% of the dealers. 

This of course means you have to pull the wheels off to replace the bushing/s, then put back on after replacing the bushing/s. No easy task, but it can be done. Safest way to reinstall wheels is with a wheel press, which most shops don't have. I have a 2020 that I had to replace the wheels on, and no shops near me have the press. Some guys suggest using a bench vise, and other solutions when a wheel press isn't available. My 2020 still isn't back together after two years, because of this problem. 

If you resort to finding a bad bushing or bushings, and decide to try and fix it, you have to remember to quarter the wheels correctly, so that the side rods are "timed" correctly. On most steam engines the right side wheels lead the left side wheels by 90 degrees, meaning the right side linkage hole is at 3 o'clock position, and the left side is at 12 o'clock. *Lionel turbines are the exact opposite, where the left side leads the right side. Left side wheels are at 9 o'clock, and the right side is at 12 o'clock.* The turbines are the only ones that are that way.

Any other questions, just fire away. I have four 2020's and a 681, and all have been apart at one time or another for E unit, wiring, etc., and only the one 2020 has the wheels off, waiting to be put back on.


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

In the event you take the side rods off, make sure when you reinstall them that all the screw holes are in the same position on each side. All holes at 12, 3, 6 or 9 as in a clock face.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The bushings are a good place to start. I have found them prone to axle damage on falls. A bent axle is hard to detect even with a straight edge. But of course they wobble when run. I would change axles and bushings WIth flange ends the centers are pulled off first and the installed first before the centers. I would go the extra mile and install ball bearings if it were mine.


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

T-man, Where are you talking about ball bearings??? Clue me in.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

RC cars use small ball bearings I found some years ago on hobbylink and put them in my 2333. A perfect replacemant for a bearing . 18 buck I got ten of them.

F-3 thread from 2008

Remember the drive stress is from the rear to forward so the wear should be at the rear. Then you need to look at the brass worm gear


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

T, If the wobble comes from the axles, there are no ball bearings. The only place in the turbines is in the motor, behind the armature, and the other end of armature shaft. So the ball bearing reference didn't make any sense to me.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I would replace the axle bushing with a small bearing, not a ball bearing but a tiny bearing complete with inner and outer racers.










Those axles are funny no drive gears on three of them so they turn freely but each side has to be in sync with it's side.


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Bob, Here is a photo of the 2020 frame that I still haven't put the wheels back on yet. For parts the bushings are pressed into the frame, and a tight fit. The bushing is 671-20 bushing, the front and rear axles are swaged, one for the cam to smoke lever, and the other for worm wheel. The center two axles are smooth 671-25, swaged are 671-21. There is no way to put the type of bearing you are mentioning, as the 671-20 is made for the turbines.


----------



## Kahl (Nov 19, 2015)

Greg if you want I can put in bearings and axles for your Dad's Turbine. I have the press and the wheel cups.


----------



## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> For starters the 682 is basically identical to the other turbines (671/681/2020), to the point if you look inside the shell for the cast number every single one has the same number of 671-3, whether it is 1946 smoke bulb version all the way up to last Postwar production in 1952. The only difference of the shells was how it was trimmed (number stamp, extra boss cast in to 682 shell for oiler linkage). If the wobble is so noticeable, you probably have a worn bushing on one of the axles. The way to test it, is take the side rods off both sides. Take one axle set and see how much movement you have by wiggling the wheels up and down or forward and backward. Do each axle separately, one at a time, to see if any have excess play. If one or more axles show excessive play, the bushing that are inserted into the frame will need to be replaced. The parts are available from 99% of the dealers.
> 
> This of course means you have to pull the wheels off to replace the bushing/s, then put back on after replacing the bushing/s. No easy task, but it can be done. Safest way to reinstall wheels is with a wheel press, which most shops don't have. I have a 2020 that I had to replace the wheels on, and no shops near me have the press. Some guys suggest using a bench vise, and other solutions when a wheel press isn't available. My 2020 still isn't back together after two years, because of this problem.
> 
> ...


Wow that is a lot of good information. I knew about the others. I saw them on eBay for sale a lot of them are cheap especially the 2020. But the 682 reigns supreme with value.I will definitely remove the linkages to check to see how the wobble is affected. This is all great information. I don't know how you guys get so knowledgable. He's blown away that everyone on the Internet is so helpful with this stuff. I keep telling him. He needs to be the one on here explaining everything. Because I don't speak Lionel postwar trains. Lol see I would say change out each traction motor. Flange height is too high. Lol


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Greg, I forgot to mention one Crucial point with the 682 linkage. The added oiler linkage is not attached to the body with a HEX head SCREW. It is actually a pressed in stud, that has knurled edges to grab into the casting. DO NOT..repeat..DO NOT try to unscrew them with a nut driver as you will snap them off. I think, as I don't have a 682, that you can leave the added linkage on the shell, and just remove the long side rods. The side rods have to come off, in order to check each axle independently, for a worn bushing, or bent axle. If you look at my previous post, you see what the bushings look like in the frame.

The 682 was improved appearance wise, by adding the oiler linkage, and white stripe. It was basically to improve sales. Therefore the more desirable S2 turbine from Lionel.

Below are two photos, one showing the drive stud for the oiler linkage, and a side by side comparison of a normal turbine shell casting, and the extra boss added to a 682, for the extra linkage. There were a number of posts here, and other forums referring to people attempting to pass a standard turbine shell off as a faked 682. It cannot be done, period!!
The shell casting on top is a normal turbine shell, the bottom one is the 682 shell with the added boss for the linkage, and you can see, it is next to impossible to fake it, without a lot of effort and time.


----------



## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Have you had the chance to pull the side rods off yet? Just curious.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

teledoc said:


> Bob, Here is a photo of the 2020 frame that I still haven't put the wheels back on yet. For parts the bushings are pressed into the frame, and a tight fit. The bushing is 671-20 bushing, the front and rear axles are swaged, one for the cam to smoke lever, and the other for worm wheel. The center two axles are smooth 671-25, swaged are 671-21. There is no way to put the type of bearing you are mentioning, as the 671-20 is made for the turbines.
> 
> View attachment 132049


Of course you can do it. The bearing I used had a 3/16th hole 5/16th outside diameter and 3/16ths deep. I punched out the bushing from the inside with a drift pin. The trick was to center the worm drive. If you look closely the ends are swaged but are less than the shaft diameter so the bearing will fit up. I placed the bearings on the axle first, one side then place on frame to fit up the worm gear , then the other bearing. Only one bearing was sloppy in the frame on the outer edge and I used Loctite on it. Spinning the bearing after each movement was crucial because of binding.


----------



## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

Hey, RandomTask, what a new resource we have in "KAHL" (above), who is offering to install needed parts, etc., and who has a press! Thank you, Kahl, for your generous spirit, and I'm sure this site will be wanting to tune you in real fast. Welcome, didn't see your inclusion, but you're in good company here. Random Task, take note!


----------

