# Rails not level after nailing and ballasting track



## Mousetrain (6 mo ago)

Noticing this issue after laying ballast tracks were level. I pinned now some spots with track bales and then ballasted.
Now multiple spots are not level like this example. Should I nail down the high track points even after the ballast has hardened? (Worried about disturbing the dried ballast) or is there another route I should take to level my rails?


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

If you ballasted by misting water on the ballast and then applying a 50/50 mixture of white glue and water, I imagine that the exposed chipboard you have your track attached to didn't take kindly to the moisture. Most likely it probably swelled up at various points from all the moisture. Any further attempts at nailing down your track to level it out will most likely result in damaging the track.

If you wish to try and salvage your chip board, you need to remove your track & ballast, sand the wood down flat, and then seal it with an oil-based primer or paint before relaying any more track and ballast.

Or, save the chip board for some other project and get some good plywood instead. It would be a lot more swell-resistant, but I'd recommend painting it first anyway. A good, flat, earth-colored latex paint would be fine on plywood.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Mixed Freight is right on. Afraid you'll need to start over.
You'll be using a lot more water when you do scenery.
If that loco in the bacground is an indication of the trains you'll be running
bulitproff track is a must. Poor track is one of the most fusterating things in model railroading.
What ever sub base you use should be well painted.

Magic


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## Mousetrain (6 mo ago)

Thank you gentlemen for your responses!


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## Oomowmow (10 mo ago)

I see you recently registered, Welcome to the forum!


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Is there cork under the track?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I'm going to say that the problem is due to an inappropriate subroadbed material (OSB) and also probably overdriving track nails. They can actually be tricky to get right. The others who responded are correct. The only real fix for this is a complete do-over. If you "settle", you're likely to become frustrated quickly. 

Use a different material for subroadbed, either quality plywood or extruded foam insulating panels. If you absolutely MUST use OSB, sand it dead flat with a belt sander and paint it with at least two coats of exterior latex paint, or something like Drylock to seal out water.

Use cork or foam roadbed under your track. Consider using an adhesive (adhesive caulk is a good choice) to lay your track. It's more forgiving and harder to bow your track by accidentally overdriving a nail.

When you have the track laid, carefully inspect for imperfections BEFORE you ballast. Fix anything you find, bowed track, kinked rail joints, or whatever. Only then should you lay ballast..


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

With osb board, paint both sides! Best answer is to not use it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Lemonhawk said:


> With osb board, paint both sides! Best answer is to not use it.


Good point about the bottom also absorbing moisture. Another case where cheaper is not better.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

To me it's only worth fixing if it's actually broken. Which means to me that couplings fail in those areas. In others words cars uncouple when rolling over these areas. If they don't, then to me there's nothing wrong with it overall.

Now assuming there's only a few troublesome spots. Id just take a putty knife and wedge those spots up, and then shim them a little until uncouplings no longer take place...

As for the osb... Maybe I dunno you already put it down... I mean... It's down.


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## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

If you go out in the real world, you'll see track is not perfectly level, especially after trains have passed over. If your trains run fine then what you have is prototypical track, in which case I wouldn't worry about it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Chaostrain said:


> If you go out in the real world, you'll see track is not perfectly level, especially after trains have passed over. If your trains run fine then what you have is prototypical track, in which case I wouldn't worry about it.


True, but on an HO layout, everything is scaled up 87 times. A 1/8" bump in HO scale is almost a foot in real life, far outside of acceptable tolerances for track movement / warping. Basically, if it's visible to the naked eye, it's too big for a scale train.

The problem is that because he laid his track on OSB, it's going to be subject to continual variations, which can break joints, throw rails out of gauge, etc, etc. "It's OK as is" is bad advice in this case. Even if it works today, it's just asking for trouble later.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

So it just comes down to whether those spots cause coupler disconnect... To me.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Mousetrain said:


> Noticing this issue after laying ballast tracks were level. I pinned now some spots with track bales and then ballasted.
> Now multiple spots are not level like this example. Should I nail down the high track points even after the ballast has hardened? (Worried about disturbing the dried ballast) or is there another route I should take to level my rails?
> View attachment 585963
> 
> ...





Mousetrain said:


> Noticing this issue after laying ballast tracks were level. I pinned now some spots with track bales and then ballasted.
> Now multiple spots are not level like this example. Should I nail down the high track points even after the ballast has hardened? (Worried about disturbing the dried ballast) or is there another route I should take to level my rails?
> View attachment 585963
> 
> ...


I disagree with Severn's response, but the others have given you good advice. If you can use 1-1/2" to 2" thick extruded foam insulation board as a layout base, it will stay flat, even when wet, though I still recommend a good coat of earth colored latex paint on it. If nothing else, the baby blue, passionate pink, or garish green, colors that foam comes in, don't look a bit like earth. The attached file covers laying track. Several times it mentions checking the "Sub-roadbed" (table surface) , roadbed, (typically commercial cork or foam roadbed) and the track (I recommend flex track fastened with caulk, rather than sectional track fastened with nails, but that's up to you.) with a long metal straightedge to make sure the track is flat. Yes, ballast should only be added AFTER checking the track by eyeball, and with an NMRA gauge, and by running trains on it.

Good luck;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I just feel one has to weigh the effort to achieve flatness against whether it's performing as is in it's undulating state. Which to me is measured by decoupling events in these areas.

But I can appreciate a desire to improve the track bed both now and into the future so that any warpage is minimal ... or will never happen..


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Severn said:


> I just feel one has to weigh the effort to achieve flatness against whether it's performing as is in it's undulating state. Which to me is measured by decoupling events in these areas.
> 
> But I can appreciate a desire to improve the track bed both now and into the future so that any warpage is minimal ... or will never happen..


The problem is that you're not considering future state -- the problem, due to the root cause of a subroadbed that is inherently not dimensionally stable, is only going to get worse over time. If there were some guarantee that this was the worst it was going to get, your position would have some validity. But as it stands, just letting it go is bad advice.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Severn said:


> I just feel one has to weigh the effort to achieve flatness against whether it's performing as is in it's undulating state


Fair enough….except the OP never indicated, one way or the other, whether it was performing as is….


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Well that's why I was asking or suggesting some way to characterize the issue. You know to me it's kinda like the leaking oil at a hard to reach gasket. So sure I agree, totally best solution is to pull it, take it apart, new gaskets. That's a big job. But it's the right solution. Or just top the oil up... It's not great, it's easy to forget and it's entirely likely the leak will get worse over time. Then again it may well be manageable.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I think a lot of us are concerned that the use of OSB will continue to generate bigger and bigger problems. If the base was stable then I think you could just use a few shims to shore up the low parts, but you would have to re-lay the parts that have an abrupt peak (vertical kink!).


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*It's a hobby*..*Simply put*: If, IF you are unhappy with *any aspect*, take it all out, whatever it be, and re-do it !

From the look of it, it appears as if you skipped cork or foam roadbed and put track right down on ballast, or at least overdid it somehow..
Also, it wasn't a good choice using particle OSB board as opposed to standard ply, mulch, or foam insulation board (though I'm pretty sure your immediate problem is not due to that).
I'd say, investigate how long time modelers have dealt with the 'right of way', subroadbed, roadbed, track, and ballast and go with those methods for long term happiness with your RR..


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## James50 (6 mo ago)

Let's deal guys


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Deal what…..?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

“Also, it wasn't a good choice using particle OSB board as opposed to standard ply, mulch, or foam insulation board (though I'm pretty sure your immediate problem is not due to that).”

Are you kidding? Actually, I think using chip board was the whole problem….


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## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Cards??


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Severn said:


> Well that's why I was asking or suggesting some way to characterize the issue. You know to me it's kinda like the leaking oil at a hard to reach gasket. So sure I agree, totally best solution is to pull it, take it apart, new gaskets. That's a big job. But it's the right solution. Or just top the oil up... It's not great, it's easy to forget and it's entirely likely the leak will get worse over time. Then again it may well be manageable.


Yes, except that the parallel analogy would be that you have evidence that either the gasket is progressively disintegrating, or the engine block is. Again, if the most likely future state were stability, then the best answer would be to fix this if it causes problems, or let it be if it doesn't. Unfortunately, that's not the case here. The most likely future state is that the problem will worsen. So you'd just be playing Whack-a-Mole with track issues. The most likely case is that if you don't fix the root cause (use of an inappropriate subroadbed), you're going to keep throwing time, money and effort at it later, and making it MORE difficult to repair when you have to rip out more and more finished landscape to get to the track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok, so I hate osb, but i really dont thibk the amount of moisture generated by the ballist swelled it enough to move it. If that were the case, every newly build home would fall apart at the first rain during construction. 

I think the force you applied the balist loosened your pin fasteners. Or the hlue itself expanded while drying? Try it again with something else holding the rails down. And try not to push the ballist in. 

Also, my theory could be way off. So please explain how you did the balist.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, so I hate osb, but i really dont thibk the amount of moisture generated by the ballist swelled it enough to move it. If that were the case, every newly build home would fall apart at the first rain during construction.
> 
> I think the force you applied the balist loosened your pin fasteners. Or the hlue itself expanded while drying? Try it again with something else holding the rails down. And try not to push the ballist in.
> 
> Also, my theory could be way off. So please explain how you did the balist.


*Excellent call !!
It's right* to *hate* *OSB* for this hobby..Yet, it coming undone that fast to disrupt the track is highly unlikely..
I juz thing iz sumptin' else wit da inundated amount of thick ballast chunks, glue(s), pins, fish plates, schmorgesborg plate, tin plate, or even Platte Utah = 
*Needs rethinking and redoing correctly or will just cause more havoc down the line..*


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Doesn’t anyone use homasote for a layout base anymore….?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

sjm9911 said:


> Ok, so I hate osb, but i really dont thibk the amount of moisture generated by the ballist swelled it enough to move it. If that were the case, every newly build home would fall apart at the first rain during construction.
> 
> I think the force you applied the balist loosened your pin fasteners. Or the hlue itself expanded while drying? Try it again with something else holding the rails down. And try not to push the ballist in.
> 
> Also, my theory could be way off. So please explain how you did the balist.


Theory way off.  As I said in an earlier post, everything is scaled up on a layout. 1/4" of dimensional variance is nothing in home construction; it's a 2 scale foot (or more) disaster on a model railroad.

You may note that I also identified overdrive of track nails as a potential issue (another excellent reason to take it up and do it over).


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> Doesn’t anyone use homasote for a layout base anymore….?


In these highly inflationary times, too many people are succumbing to the temptation to "go cheap", with predictable results.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Old Hobo, I use milled Homasote roadbed, comes in strips like cork roadbed. The supplier I used is no longer in business, but apparently Shop | Central & Western HomaRoad Supply now supplies the roadbed.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

I get the feeling the OP didn’t use a cork or foam track underlay….looks like he tacked the track down and gooped ballast on the track….that could be a clue to the cause of the problem….


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

This one's starting to feel like a drive-by....


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> Theory way off. As I said in an earlier post, everything is scaled up on a layout. 1/4" of dimensional variance is nothing in home construction; it's a 2 scale foot (or more) disaster on a model railroad.
> 
> You may note that I also identified overdrive of track nails as a potential issue (another excellent reason to take it up and do it over).


I dought that it would be off at all with the small amount of water. Even a quarter on an inch. When i get some osb I'll try it. Lol. Ill bet its something other then the osb.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> I get the feeling the OP didn’t use a cork or foam track underlay….looks like he tacked the track down and gooped ballast on the track….that could be a clue to the cause of the problem….


Maybe, but I’ve ballasted yard track directly to plywood and it didn’t come out anything like that. It would be nice if the OP would come back and tell us exactly what he did so we could make a specific recommendation.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

prrfan said:


> Maybe, but I’ve ballasted yard track directly to plywood and it didn’t come out anything like that


Right, because you used plywood, not chipboard….


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

sjm9911 said:


> I dought that it would be off at all with the small amount of water. Even a quarter on an inch. When i get some osb I'll try it. Lol. Ill bet its something other then the osb.


Again, wrong. But please feel free to experiment on your own. Ballasting, done correctly, requires lots of water, both in pre-wetting the ballast and in applying diluted adhesive. In both steps, you want to see liquid oozing out of your ballast. And it STAYS wet for a long time. .This gives each individual chunk of wood in that OSB a chance to absorb that water and swell, independently of all the other pieces around it.

This type of swelling doesn't matter when you're sheathing a house, but it creates unacceptable bulges under HO scale track.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> Again, wrong. But please feel free to experiment on your own. Ballasting, done correctly, requires lots of water, both in pre-wetting the ballast and in applying diluted adhesive. In both steps, you want to see liquid oozing out of your ballast. And it STAYS wet for a long time. .This gives each individual chunk of wood in that OSB a chance to absorb that water and swell, independently of all the other pieces around it.
> 
> This type of swelling doesn't matter when you're sheathing a house, but it creates unacceptable bulges under HO scale track.


Then why is it only swelled at the track conection points and no where else?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

sjm9911 said:


> Then why is it only swelled at the track conection points and no where else?


And you know this from a picture that shows perhaps two joints? Torque on other areas of the track caused by warping underneath can force the joints up, especially because they are farther from the nails.

But I'm not arguing that he may have overdrive the nails -- I suggested that before you did, if you look at the history. But a clear argument against that scenario is that he would have to have something compressible -- like roadbed -- under his track for it to deflect that much, and it's not clear that he does.

But even if that turns out to be the cause in THIS SPECIFIC CASE, that doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong with using OSB. It has known stability issues in the presence of moisture and arguing that it may not be the a problem is just flat out wrong. If he has problems now, and it wasn't the moisture that caused them, it will only get worse when moisture does, inevitably, cause uneven swelling of the sub-roadbed.


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

Dang, all that work and you get busted out. NOT to tell you, or anyone else, how to model, but this makes me glad that I keep it super simple. Hope you can recover from this.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

That ballast was probably going to be a problem anyway. It shouldn’t be humped up on the sides of the track like that. It can cause clearance problems with truck covers and pilots of locomotives and various parts of undercarriages of rolling stock. 
I would suggest a finer grade of ballast. Latex caulk instead of nails on foam or cork roadbed. 
You want a smooth, even taper from the sides of the track down along the roadbed to the underlayment. 
Use a photo of a good model railroad for reference or better yet one of the many YouTube videos. 
Don’t glue it until you are satisfied with the way it looks. Definitely use the OSB for something else.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

CTValleyRR said:


> Again, wrong. But please feel free to experiment on your own. Ballasting, done correctly, requires lots of water, both in pre-wetting the ballast and in applying diluted adhesive. In both steps, you want to see liquid oozing out of your ballast. And it STAYS wet for a long time. .This gives each individual chunk of wood in that OSB a chance to absorb that water and swell, independently of all the other pieces around it.
> 
> This type of swelling doesn't matter when you're sheathing a house, but it creates unacceptable bulges under HO scale track.


Lol, you make assumptions just as I do from the info we have. Without more info from the op, thats all we got. I figure , they layed down the balist then the track. Smushing the track into the baslist. Then tacked it. Look at it again. We can argue about osb another time. I allready stated I disliked it. But it does have its purposes.


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## Djsfantasi (Mar 19, 2019)

OSB will fail. Period. Unless it’s in a closed climate-controlled environment. You can get it to work, but for how long?

I prefer plywood for its dimensional stability. And I paint it both sides anyway.

BTW, I don’t use roadbed, cork or otherwise nor track nails. I use double-sided foam tape every 6”-8”. Then, my ballast forms the profile.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Old_Hobo said:


> Doesn’t anyone use homasote for a layout base anymore….?


Well, yes, but when I started my current layout a couple of years ago, homosote was $40+ per 4X8 sheet. By contrast, 1/2 inch extruded polystyrene (or whatever it's called -- the "pink stuff"!) was about $13, and a lot less messy to cut and work with. To me the choice was obvious (since I'm basically cheap! ), and so far, I've had no reason to regret my choice.

BTW. I also used 1/2" OSB as a base layer (and yes, before you ask, it_ was_ a lot cheaper than equivalent plywood! ). I did not seal it, but since I completely covered it with the pink stuff (in fact, I glued them together), I've experienced none of the horrors others have recited for OSB. I fully endorse comments about properly sealing _any _exposed wood, whether OSB, plywood, or dimension lumber, before possible exposure to moisture or other contaminants. I also question direct attachment of the track to the base followed by ballasting as the first steps. IMHO the better practice is to use a cork or foam track base, and delay the ballasting until you are satisfied with the operation of your track plan -- it's a _whole_ lot easier to relocate your track and switches _before_ you lock them in place with glue and ballast! Yes, you _can_ usually wet and soften the ballast and thereby manage to salvage the equipment, but that process is _not_ for the faint of heart, even if it works!


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Maybe he used clumping cat litter as a ballast, and it's what swelled up. I see no obvious watermarks on the osb around the edges of the ballast.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

JeffHurl said:


> Maybe he used clumping cat litter as a ballast, and it's what swelled up. I see no obvious watermarks on the osb around the edges of the ballast.





JeffHurl said:


> Maybe he used clumping cat litter as a ballast, and it's what swelled up. I see no obvious watermarks on the osb around the edges of the ballast.


Maybe_ recycled/used _cat litter? Turns out there_ is _such a thing as "too cheap" after all . . .


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I have used cat litter, it dosen't swell. In fact it was the hardest thing to take up on the old layout.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Old_Hobo said:


> Doesn’t anyone use homasote for a layout base anymore….?


Homosote was found to contain asbestos for fire retardation (it's just compressed old newspapers mixed with binder after all) so it's use has been banned under most residential building codes, so it's difficult to find these days. plus EPS foam is a far better insulator per inch and is nearly as inexpensive.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

scenicsRme said:


> Homosote was found to contain asbestos for fire retardation (it's just compressed old newspapers mixed with binder after all) so it's use has been banned under most residential building codes, so it's difficult to find these days. plus EPS foam is a far better insulator per inch and is nearly as inexpensive.


Don't know about the current disruptions, but a couple of years ago EPS was half to a third as much as homosote, when I built my current layout. YMMV


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

According to the internet, Homasote has never contained Asbestos


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

This happened to me when I first did my roadbed. It was from using too much glue hahahaha rookie mistake


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Well, it looks like the OP was satisfied with the first two responses.


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