# Trying to Understand Brass



## Murv2 (Nov 5, 2017)

When I was a kid brass locomotives were one of those things everyone whispered about like they were the cat's meow. They were a non-starter in our house due to price but one of my father's friends had one, he kept in a plexiglass box on a shelf. 
Now I'm well off enough to be able to save up for one, and I'm starting to wonder if I should. I mean, they wouldn't look right running around the track all gold colored but if you paint them you can no longer see that they are brass. 
Is there something significant about brass that isn't apparent? Why spend the extra money when you can find so many interesting engines in plastic and cast metal?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

I've wondered the same thing. I suppose, years ago, brass offered more detail than plastic. But today you have Rapido, Rivet Counter, et al.

Status?


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

My experience with brass is that it is loud and noisy, compared to today’s offerings in plastic….which is why the collectors market has down-graded its value….


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Murv2 said:


> Is there something significant about brass that isn't apparent? Why spend the extra money when you can find so many interesting engines in plastic and cast metal?


Accurate styling and detailing to specific real-world equipment. So much RR equipment, especially steam locomotives was different and unique from RR to RR when you get down to the specifics. A mass-produced plastic locomotive tends to be a common or generic design. If you want specific accurate locos for your specific railway, you need to do a lot of your own custom work, or brass.

While there are certainly collectors who buy some brass because it's brass, it's a key source of specific stuff that's not run in mass production. Usually you buy brass because you CAN'T find that specific thing in plastic and cast metal.

Detail on brass also used to be a lot better than the mass produced plastic models, although modern plastic has come a long way on the detail front. Some brass details may be more "robust" though.

Don't buy brass just because it's brass; know what you're looking for and getting.


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## afboundguy (Jan 10, 2021)

Funny I have been looking into brass models as well and have been paying attention to some on ebay to see what they're going for compared to other high end models. I'm specifically looking at a PRR M1b engine the only real comparison is the BLI model vs brass and the BLI used models are going for almost double what an unpainted brass model is going for. I sort of understand this since they're DC with no sound and more than likely loud engines but it has peaked my interest and I think eventually I'll try and buy one as I think I would enjoy painting and finishing it up.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Painting brass is more difficult than you would imagine…..the best brass paint jobs are usually done by professionals….

Jeff Lemke


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i have about a dozen brass loco, all except one are steamers, and as a rule they are a little noisier than plastic. mind you the brass is 20 to 40 years old and the plastic [shays, heislers, climaxes] are petty new ..both are priced about the same, i prefer brass, a little less detail, but a heavier and sturdier loco...


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

'Twas a rite of passage long ago, young Skywalker. You just weren't a model Railroader 'til you had one under glass on the mantle, or with its glistening golden posterior nosing out the roundhouse. Since I own two, I can doubly thumb my nose at you younglings in the academy.

As pointed out, up until the mid seventies, their running qualities were less than stellar. With the advent of BLI, Spectrum and others, the market turned towards really special editions of less than fifty, as nthly accurate as possible, with all the bells and whistles stuffed under the hood. There simply is no real need for the average modeler to buy one, and their investment worth is dubious at best, and certainly a squirrelly a market as one could get in.









I got mine for nostalgia and that they are not offered any other way. They don't run for crap, but that's ok, they're only for the masters on the Model Railroader Jedi council, and not for the lowly plebes.


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

In my opinion you buy sheet brass (not cast) locomotives (or a combination there-of) for the aesthetics and not to paint and cover up all that hard work and detail. A display case for it should not be considered heresy.

Years ago Japanese brass was the thing to own, but prices were well beyond my ability to justify. Now it seems quality brass locomotives are priced much more reasonably than in the past. I have just four or five, mostly cheap cast brass but a couple with nicely done brass add-ons.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I knew as soon as I came into the hobby and learned about the various manufacturers and importers, no matter what the material was, that a brass locomotive or car was not going to be on my rails unless it was a reasonably affordable and faithful representation of the real item. As far as I know, no full scale locomotives were made of unpainted brass. I have several brass-hybrid models from BLI, and I feel they are all worthy of their wait and their prices. Mine all run like Swiss watches, and look and sound pretty darned sweet. I only have one full brass locomotive, and that's the Sunset HO Canadian Pacific 'Selkirk' 2-10-4 issued in 2010. It's beautiful, and runs well. Needs a minimum of 30" radius, so my pikes all have that plus 10% to err on the side of caution. I had to return it to Sunset to have the female receptacle replaced/restored into position because it was too easily shoved inward and out of place or contact. That was done with full good will, no charge, and I think a four week turnaround.

When I look at the all-brass stock, both offered new in a few months/years on Precision Scale and other sites, it all seems to come painted. At least, that's what the photos show. Any older stock on consignment across sites seems to be the tired old stuff with that dull brass colour, not at all appealing to me. It must be the case that many others in the hobby have come around to higher details in non-brass, better running, sound, and more availability, and this is reflected in the bottom almost dropping out of the brass market.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Although I have some 3rd Rail Brass as well as several Weaver and Williams brass locomotives, I don't go out of my way to buy brass. If it's a model I really want and it's priced right, I'll buy it. All of my brass has been used stuff that I've bought for upgrade, generally the price of the new stuff is more than I'm willing to pay.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

There's a prototype for everything...


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

This, too?


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Murv2 said:


> Why spend the extra money when you can find so many interesting engines in plastic and cast metal?


because the locos of interest to you are only in brass. i have brass Reading I5, D8 and B8. while the mantua yard goat resembles a RDG B8, it is hardly accurate


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## rsv1ho (Oct 16, 2019)

mesenteria said:


> View attachment 564120
> 
> 
> This, too?


Now THAT is brass!


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I prefer brass locomotives just for the fact some of the locos I want haven’t ever been accurately represented in a modern plastic locomotive. I have multiple brass 3460 class Santa Fe Hudson’s, a brass northern, a brass Texas, brass pioneer zephyr, a brass 2-8-0 and some brass diesels. As far as the diesels go I paid $80 for the e8 a-b set painted and all so I couldn’t pass on it. My brass gp7 i paid $20 for and my brass sd24 I paid $30 for. I will definitely say I would take a p2k diesel or something comparable over a brass one ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

How do all your brass locomotives run?


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I have about half a dozen O-Gauge brass locos out of maybe 220 locos. Not one is unpainted. I naked brass loco is interesting, but not something I want on the shelf.

The reason I buy brass model locomtives (when I do) is because they are exceptiona models. As seems to usually be the case with brass, all mine are scale, exceptionally detailed, highly accurate with regard to the prototype, and very well painted and labeled. Brass locos with lots of detail tend to be a bit delicate, brass steamers tend to be lighter than diecast metal steamers, and brass locos often have running gear/electronics that doesn't seem up to the quality and sound in the mass produced models, so they generally don't make as good a toy sense of being easy, trouble free, and a great loco to run on the layout. But they are superb models. That was my experience with N-Gauge brass twenty years ago, too (I still have two three in a box somewhere).
So most of my brass O-gauge locos are just shelf queens - I bought each because I wanted a superior model of a loco not made or not made accurately enough by any mass market manufacturer. That said, one of the best I have is the recent Lionel brass-hybrid Southern Pacific GS-1. It is both a great detailed and impressive model, and a very good runner with excellent sound, cruise control, lights and steam effects, etc. Of course, for the list price, $2,200, it should be . . . but that's the price anymore for O-Guage brass steamers - in fact a fairly low price given some I've seen.
That said, often, at least in O guage, I can find better models _not _in brass. Someone above mentioned Santa Fe's 3460 class Hudsons - one of my favorite locos. I don't know about in other scales, but MTH's Premier 1:48 3460 Hudson model is superio, to any brass ones I've seen: a truly stunning model and a fantastic loco to run on the layout, too.


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

My brass 4-8-4 is pretty noisy but the others are as quiet as my bachmann locos but they’ve all had can motors installed and are dcc equipped. They all but my 4-8-4 run smooth too. They take a while to get them to run real smooth though especially if you have to mess with the valve gear to get any binds out or whatever. My sd24 is real loud as far as my diesels go too but the others are reasonably quiet


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Not sure if it pertains to you. But just in case, I'm pretty sure little to no brass come DCC and/or DCC/Sound on board.. 
I believe it's all (still) analog DC or AC only...And brass is hard to paint successfully. I believe to prevent paint from chipping off it has to be baked on..This of course means disassembly to remove motor/wires + certain chemistry.. 
Your last sentence is the answer to your own question (skipping the old early cast stuff)..
But do find out for yourself if you wish..Look for an Akane Ma & Pa 2-8-0 Connie on ebay..They hover around $180..I've one from childhood which ran smooth. Beware though, much old brass have deep flanges (as does it) which will collide with spike heads unless you've hand laid track or code 100 rail...


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## Cjcrescent (May 27, 2016)

The majority of my Locos are brass, steamers, and as was said earlier, there isn't a single "plastic" or "hybrid" loco that matches my prototype. There are quite a few in brass. I model the Southern in steam, and I have every model for that road available in brass except for the articulateds. Generic models, which most plastics are, cannot compare detail wise for a specfic railroads locos. Sometimes a wheel arrangement isn't available in brass and a redetail job will provide it from a plastic model but the cost of the new details can push the price higher.

As to running qualities, most steamers are easy to get to run well with a little work, (such as adjustments to the mechanisms.). With some more work, (reagearing, remotoring etc) they become superb runners. All of mine are DCC equipped, and have been remotored or regeared to make them run best.

All in all, brass can be a hobby in itself. Much of it depends on how much "sweat equity" you want, or are willing to do.

Carey
Keep it between the rails!
Alabama Central Website


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