# Getting ready for my first layout, endless questions.



## Mithril_Maiden (Nov 28, 2020)

I went on a buying spree and got a ton of trains the last couple weeks, and now it's time to do something with them. This layout is going to be in HO and OO scales, with HO track. It is a DCC layout, but some of the locomotives are DC. I hear you can run DC on DCC, but not well, I've never tried it, and I don't know exactly how much of a problem that is, or if it is worth trying. More on the subject below.

First off, let's talk about what HO and OO trains we're working with. When I went off buying up all these trains, I bought stuff of personal significance to me, or that represents a very interesting historical era. I have a lot of locomotives, but also a lot of traction. I don't drive and I study public transportation in graduate school, so traction is of huge interest. I have 3, soon to be 4, PCC streetcars (2 from Los Angeles, 1 from San Diego, 1 from San Francisco), 3 San Francisco cable cars, and a Boeing LRV in San Francisco livery (it's from International Hobby Corps, and it looks really old, so I don't know if it can support DCC). I think the PCCs are DC but DCC capable, the cable cars are DC and I don't think they could fit a DCC unit. I also have a bunch of HO scale public transit buses from across California that are, of course, not motorized. My collection is focused on passenger transportation, not freight. I have the Union Pacific 119 and Central Pacific Jupiter that famously met at Promontory Point, a Southern Pacific F7 A and B unit, a Southern Pacific 4-8-4, a Texas and Pacific 4-6-0, and a Walt Disney World Railroad train set (I've been to the Disney parks in Anaheim, Tokyo, and Orlando, so I flipped at seeing that on Ebay and had to have it). I'm waiting on a DCC Lisbon Tram to ship from Portugal, because I did a two week school trip to Lisbon once and that's some great memories. Being an American Anglophile who's been to the United Kingdom, I have obtained multiple British trains that catch my eye, such as an A1 Terrier commuter locomotive in Victorian Era livery, a Hornby Flying Scotsman train set, a Hornby Mallard locomotive, an ROD 2-8-0 that could have pulled a troop train on the Western Front, and, in the future, hopefully those new Bachmann 1960s London Underground cars (I really want those things). My American HO locomotives are DCC, but my British OO locomotives are DC but DCC ready. I also have a bunch of HO scale public transit buses from across California that are, of course, not motorized.

So we've got a ton of stuff here, and I think I forgot something somewhere. Now what to do with it all? My answer is to build a train museum, because I tend to collect trains that are either historically significant, iconic, or meaningful to my own personal history. Since everything I have except arguably the Promontory Point trains is a locomotive that was used in passenger service or mixed service, my museum is completely focused on passenger transportation, and I can wave off the inclusion of the Promontory Point trains as valid because of their massive significance to passenger transportation and them being of a type used for passenger service, even if UP 119 was a freight train and I can't tell what the Jupiter was. This explains the heavy mixing of American and British trains, and while the scales will be a bit off because OO is larger (IIRC, to compensate for British locomotives being too small to carry the motors), I can live with that inaccuracy. The museum idea also means all of that traction easily fits with my locomotives, and the nonmotorized buses also have a place. It also works because, honestly, I've been buying trains for display/"I want to collect an example of X" first and foremost, rather than with running them in mind, and a museum is, well, for displaying things. A museum also means I can easily add new trains as I aquire them, without having to worry about how they "fit the layout". I do want to run trains, so I want to build a couple heritage rail lines around the museum, presuming this uber-rich fantasy museum has all these locomotives in working order and does short excursions with them for guests. These being heritage lines, I kind of want to model based on including cool layout elements, for a "fun" rail line rather than anything realistic.

The museum idea also addresses one key issue with my collection - I have very few cars for my locomotives, because I'm spending all this money on new locomotives and I just can't spend the money for appropriate cars every time, and in some cases I can't even easily find the cars I want to use. I have a set of silver Southern Pacific streamlined cars, I have the 3 brown LNER passenger cars that came with the Flying Scotsman train set, I have the cars in the Disney World train set, and I have some old 1860s Union Pacific passenger cars (if Con-Cor ever gets around to shipping them). That's very little rolling stock, and outfitting all these locomotives would be a huge price tag I don't want to pay. For a museum layout, though, I kind of see it as not an issue? I would never expect a museum to own and store a set of appropriate passenger cars for every locomotive it owns, and I wouldn't bat an eye at a museum just using whatever it had available, and either hitching the wrong roadname cars to a locomotive, or using unmarked exhibition cars (maybe I'll get a couple of those). So the museum idea leaves me not really needing to get cars for all these locomotives, or for future locomotives, and that really helps me out. Of course, I do not intend to try and put HO and OO cars on the same train. I don't expect that to work well at all, and I do have the 3 OO LNER cars to hitch to any of the British locomotives, so it isn't necessary to try it.

So far, the only things I've purchased for the layout are a Walthers HO 110' DCC turntable, because I know I want a turn table in my layout and have some really long locomotives that need the bigger table, a Digitrax DCC starter kit, a Bachmann DC starter kit, and a Bachmann EZ Track Kit. I also have the tracks and DC unit from the Hornby kit. I was imagining maybe running the streetcars and cable cars on a simple DC line with the EZ track, while having a couple DCC lines with better track for the locomotives. Or I could use the EZ track for messing around outside the layout, rather than using it in the layout. I don't quite know, yet.

What I need help with is, where do I even start with planning my layout? Do I use software to design the track? What software. I'm thinking maybe a 6' x 8' layout. Do I need OO scale roundhouses? What kind of track do I want to buy? How complicated a construction project do I want to do? How hard are inclines? I don't even understand what DCC is compared to DC, let alone how to run trains and traintable. How do switches work? Can I slap American DCC units into these British locomotives? Should I? I don't know _anything_ about building layouts, and I know just basic carpentry (I have power tools and can use them, but I'm not a trained carpenter or woodworker). Like I said, I'm lost as to where to even begin.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Welcome to the forum! That's quite a long intro -- and I confess that I didn't read and digest all the details you provided (it bordered on "TLDR"). I'm impressed, though. When I was in grad school, I ate a lot of ramen and Kraft mac and cheese. I didn't have any money for trains. You probably would have found answers to a lot of your questions just by reading threads here on the forum, and I would still encourage you to spend some time doing that. None of your questions are new or unique.

It sounds as though you do not care about having a unified theme (location or era) to your layout. And that's fine. All of us need to participate in the hobby in a way that captures our interest and imagination, and makes us happy at the end of the day.

Figuring out what to do isn't complicated, it just requires spending some time thinking and planning. Your layout does not REQUIRE any specific features or track types. It's all about what you WANT to do with it. How much space do you REALLY have to devote to this layout? Do you want to conduct realistic operations, with trains switching out cars and serving industries, or trains and traction starting and stopping at stations? Or do you just want them to run while you watch? Is the primary function of your layout to give this equipment a place to run, a few at a time, or is it primarily a fancy showcase to display as much of your equipment as possible? There are no universally right answers to these questions, only those that are right for you and your situation.

For some more specific answers:
1) Don't START with layout planning software. Do some conceptualizing and maybe freehand, not-to-scale sketches first. Then you can move into CAD to help you nail down the specifics. I can recommend AnyRail as a good software package for the PC. It's very powerful, but with a shallower learning curve than some of the fill-up 3D CAD packages and you don't need 3D to design a layout. Avoid free packages produced by track makers (Atlas) unless you're sure you only want to use their products.

2) Track type doesn't matter. Just keep it fairly consistent. Snap-together track with plastic roadbed is easy to use, but fairly limited in what you can do with it, and turnouts (switches) tend to be sub-par. Flex track with commercial turnouts is much more versatile, but harder to get right. Code of the track is simply the rail height in 1000ths of an inch. Smaller codes tend to be more realistic looking but more expensive. Neither is better.

3) Inclines (we usually refer to them as grades). Not hard to do; you can buy prefabricated ones. The problem is that anything over 2% can pose challenges for your trains, and require an easement (a short stretch of shallower grade) at the top and bottom. The % Grade is rise over run, so 2% means you need 50 horizontal inches for each inch of elevation change, and another 50" stretch of the far side to get back down. This eats up layout space very quickly.

4) Switches. 2 kinds -- one controls electricity, the other selects which track a train will use. We refer to the latter as turnouts to avoid confusion. Assuming you're talking about the second kind. Many companies sell pre-made ones. The best are from Walthers, Peco, and MicroEngineering. Atlas Customline are also good; their other lines not so much. You can slip them manually, or set them up to be run remotely, using either a manual operator or a small motor or servo.

5) DCC vs DC is a huge can of worms. We have an entire section devoted to DCC. Read some of the posts there. Suffice it to say that if you want to independently control multiple locomotives at the same time, DCC is the way to go. You can't really run DC units on DCC, but converting them isn't hard. You can find non-sound decoders that aren't much bigger than your thumbnail, so space really isn't an issue. But on any given track, it's really one or the other. You can also have independently powered, unconnected tracks, some of which are DC and some DCC though.

Of course, that just scratches the surface, but hopefully it helps some.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

OP wrote:
_"I hear you can run DC on DCC, but not well, I've never tried it, and I don't know exactly how much of a problem that is, or if it is worth trying."_

I suggest that you DO NOT DO this.
It's a good way to burn out the motors and light boards on the DC engines.

Either convert them to dcc or don't use them on the dcc railroad.

*If the DC stuff is mostly streetcars,* then you could isolate the streetcar railway from your "regular railroad" track and equipment.
THEN you could connect DC to the streetcar track and run the cars that way.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Mithril_Maiden said:


> I went on a buying spree and got a ton of trains the last couple weeks, and now it's time to do something with them. This layout is going to be in HO and OO scales, with HO track. It is a DCC layout, but some of the locomotives are DC. I hear you can run DC on DCC, but not well, I've never tried it, and I don't know exactly how much of a problem that is, or if it is worth trying. More on the subject below.
> 
> First off, let's talk about what HO and OO trains we're working with. When I went off buying up all these trains, I bought stuff of personal significance to me, or that represents a very interesting historical era. I have a lot of locomotives, but also a lot of traction. I don't drive and I study public transportation in graduate school, so traction is of huge interest. I have 3, soon to be 4, PCC streetcars (2 from Los Angeles, 1 from San Diego, 1 from San Francisco), 3 San Francisco cable cars, and a Boeing LRV in San Francisco livery (it's from International Hobby Corps, and it looks really old, so I don't know if it can support DCC). I think the PCCs are DC but DCC capable, the cable cars are DC and I don't think they could fit a DCC unit. I also have a bunch of HO scale public transit buses from across California that are, of course, not motorized. My collection is focused on passenger transportation, not freight. I have the Union Pacific 119 and Central Pacific Jupiter that famously met at Promontory Point, a Southern Pacific F7 A and B unit, a Southern Pacific 4-8-4, a Texas and Pacific 4-6-0, and a Walt Disney World Railroad train set (I've been to the Disney parks in Anaheim, Tokyo, and Orlando, so I flipped at seeing that on Ebay and had to have it). I'm waiting on a DCC Lisbon Tram to ship from Portugal, because I did a two week school trip to Lisbon once and that's some great memories. Being an American Anglophile who's been to the United Kingdom, I have obtained multiple British trains that catch my eye, such as an A1 Terrier commuter locomotive in Victorian Era livery, a Hornby Flying Scotsman train set, a Hornby Mallard locomotive, an ROD 2-8-0 that could have pulled a troop train on the Western Front, and, in the future, hopefully those new Bachmann 1960s London Underground cars (I really want those things). My American HO locomotives are DCC, but my British OO locomotives are DC but DCC ready. I also have a bunch of HO scale public transit buses from across California that are, of course, not motorized.
> 
> ...


Mithril_Madien

You probably need to learn more about model railroading before you start construction. The files below will help, and I also recommend the book "Getting Started in Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. You can buy it on Amazon.

A solid 6' x 9' table won't work well. You would not be able to reach the middle from either end, as that would be a four-and-a-half-foot reach. While you could reach the center from one of the long sides, I think you would be better off with a different shaped table. One with two wider lobes on either side of an aisle. The file "3&4 How to build a better first layout," has sketches of this type of layout.

You are doing something unusual in modeling a museum, but it might make for a very interesting display. If most of your locomotives are not expected to run, then you could use sections of EZ-Track as display bases. A simple loop, or two, around the the perimeter of the museum's property would be sufficient for running an occasional train for museum visitors.

DCC decoders don't "slap in." Some, made to fit specific new locomotives are called "drop in decoders" but even they require some work. A "DCC ready" locomotive will usually have a plug inside it that a DCC decoder can be plugged into. That's about as close to "slapping" one in as it gets. Most locomotives, especially older ones, will require insulating the motor from the frame, and soldering some pretty small wires. Each installation is different. The book "Basic DCC wiring" by Mike Polsgrove,(also on Amazon) is an excellent guide to all things DCC, including installing decoders in Locomotives.

While I'm a big fan of DCC for a fully-operating model railroad, I don't see why your museum would even need DCC at all.
The big advantages of DCC over DC are far less wiring to run more than one train on the same track,(while maintaining independent control of each) and the option of sound from the locomotives.
It doesn't sound like you would ever need to run two or more locomotives independently, on the same track, so unless sound is an absolute must for you, Why DCC?
In fact you can have some locomotive sounds generated outside the locomotives, without spending a fortune equipping all those locomotives with DCC decoders.

For your (light) Traction trolley cars, you might try to find a copy of "Traction Guidebook" on Amazon. It has all sorts of information on how trolley systems were built, and operated.
By the way model "cable cars" would not need DCC, since neither the models, or real cable cars, like San Francisco's famous ones, have motors inside them. The cars are pulled along by a moving steel wire cable under the street. San Francisco is very hilly, and the cable-pulled cars are able to climb the city's many steep hills.

Model turntables are driven by either a DC motor geared down for slow speed, or a stepper motor. How they rotate is fairly straightforward, but the "indexing" (lining up the moving rails off the turntable exactly with the stationary rails of the tracks that surround it) can get pretty complicated. Some online research on model turntables might help. I suggest starting here looking for forum posts on turntables.

"How do switches work?" I assume you mean track switches, which we call "turnouts", to distinguish between them and the many electrical switches most model railroads have. The file "All about Turnouts" Discusses them in detail. 

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Mithril_Maiden (Nov 28, 2020)

traction fan said:


> By the way model "cable cars" would not need DCC, since neither the models, or real cable cars, like San Francisco's famous ones, have motors inside them. The cars are pulled along by a moving steel wire cable under the street. San Francisco is very hilly, and the cable-pulled cars are able to climb the city's many steep hills.


I know that's how a real cable car works (I'm from San Francisco and have ridden many a cable car), but my model cable cars do indeed have DC motors in them. I just checked. This is probably because there isn't really a way to model how a cable car actually works in HO, nor is cable car track even available to my knowledge, so a motor was the only solution to enable the model to move.



> You probably need to learn more about model railroading before you start construction. The files below will help, and I also recommend the book "Getting Started in Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. You can buy it on Amazon.
> 
> A solid 6' x 9' table won't work well. You would not be able to reach the middle from either end, as that would be a four-and-a-half-foot reach. While you could reach the center from one of the long sides, I think you would be better off with a different shaped table. One with two wider lobes on either side of an aisle. The file "3&4 How to build a better first layout," has sketches of this type of layout.


I'm waiting on a copy of that book. I'll keep that in mind about tables. I haven't bought anything or committed to a size, yet.



> DCC decoders don't "slap in." Some, made to fit specific new locomotives are called "drop in decoders" but even they require some work. A "DCC ready" locomotive will usually have a plug inside it that a DCC decoder can be plugged into. That's about as close to "slapping" one in as it gets. Most locomotives, especially older ones, will require insulating the motor from the frame, and soldering some pretty small wires. Each installation is different. The book "Basic DCC wiring" by Mike Polsgrove,(also on Amazon) is an excellent guide to all things DCC, including installing decoders in Locomotives.
> 
> 
> While I'm a big fan of DCC for a fully-operating model railroad, I don't see why your museum would even need DCC at all.
> ...


Well, one key reason is that my American locomotives are all DCC with sound, and I know the Hornbys are DCC ready. So the capability is there, and it sounds fun to try and program everything to behave. I have ordered that book from Walthers, I'm waiting on that package.


Thanks for all of the links and files.

Do you know of any Seattle area HO traction I could try to track down? I see Puget Sound in your signature, and I've been to Seattle a ton of times. I'd love to find some public transit from the region.


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## Mithril_Maiden (Nov 28, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> It sounds as though you do not care about having a unified theme (location or era) to your layout. And that's fine. All of us need to participate in the hobby in a way that captures our interest and imagination, and makes us happy at the end of the day.
> 
> Figuring out what to do isn't complicated, it just requires spending some time thinking and planning. Your layout does not REQUIRE any specific features or track types. It's all about what you WANT to do with it. How much space do you REALLY have to devote to this layout? Do you want to conduct realistic operations, with trains switching out cars and serving industries, or trains and traction starting and stopping at stations? Or do you just want them to run while you watch? Is the primary function of your layout to give this equipment a place to run, a few at a time, or is it primarily a fancy showcase to display as much of your equipment as possible? There are no universally right answers to these questions, only those that are right for you and your situation.


I'm in multiple usecases at once. I am definitely going for the fancy showcase to display my varied collection, which is why I like the idea of modeling a museum to much, but I also do want to be able to have fun just running trains, switching tracks, operating the turntable, and such. Like, I know I want to operate the trains, even though I'm coming at this from "I want to showcase this large collection". Which is why I bought a big turntable. Sounds like a way to line up, like, 10 locomotives into a fancy display around the turntable, while being able to operate all of them by using the turntable to transfer them from the museum display onto a track, operating turnouts to get onto the right heritage line (I imagine two DCC and one DC or something like that), and using a shunter locomotive to move passenger cars around. In fact, "ring a bunch of locomotives around a turntable" is a layout I've seen in museums before.



> For some more specific answers:
> 1) Don't START with layout planning software. Do some conceptualizing and maybe freehand, not-to-scale sketches first. Then you can move into CAD to help you nail down the specifics. I can recommend AnyRail as a good software package for the PC. It's very powerful, but with a shallower learning curve than some of the fill-up 3D CAD packages and you don't need 3D to design a layout. Avoid free packages produced by track makers (Atlas) unless you're sure you only want to use their products.
> 
> 2) Track type doesn't matter. Just keep it fairly consistent. Snap-together track with plastic roadbed is easy to use, but fairly limited in what you can do with it, and turnouts (switches) tend to be sub-par. Flex track with commercial turnouts is much more versatile, but harder to get right. Code of the track is simply the rail height in 1000ths of an inch. Smaller codes tend to be more realistic looking but more expensive. Neither is better.
> ...


Thanks for all the tips. I think maybe I'll go without inclines for now, at least until I have a sense of how my trains are running? It seems AnyRail has a free trial, so I'll probably try it.


J.Albert1949 said:


> OP wrote:
> _"I hear you can run DC on DCC, but not well, I've never tried it, and I don't know exactly how much of a problem that is, or if it is worth trying."_
> 
> I suggest that you DO NOT DO this.
> ...


Sounds like a good idea.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Mithril_Maiden said:


> I know that's how a real cable car works (I'm from San Francisco and have ridden many a cable car), but my model cable cars do indeed have DC motors in them. I just checked. This is probably because there isn't really a way to model how a cable car actually works in HO, nor is cable car track even available to my knowledge, so a motor was the only solution to enable the model to move.
> 
> I'm waiting on a copy of that book. I'll keep that in mind about tables. I haven't bought anything or committed to a size, yet.
> 
> ...


Mithril_Maiden;

I stand corrected on the cable car issue. I didn't know you were from San Francisco. Models of operating "cable cars" or "funiculars", do exist, and they are moved by cable not internal motors. Some are the type of cable car that, like a ski lift, is suspended below an aerial cable, but others have the cable below the track. There probably isn't any commercial underground cable model track available but many things on model railroading are built from scratch since there are no commercially produced models available. (see photos) However, I see your point about your models needing to move with motors.
No, although my model railroad is set in Seattle, I live in San Diego. The Seattle traction system is called "Max" and I did ride it on a visit. The cars are modern Siemens trolleys like those used in San Diego. Apart from the paint job, they appear to be the same basic cars.
You said, "I'm waiting on a copy of that book." followed immediately by "I'll keep that in mind about tables." I'm guessing the book you are referring to is "Getting Started in Model Railroading" If you mean the info about table shapes in "3&4 How to build a better first layout" that's not a book, its just one of the pdf files I sent to you.

Good luck with your interesting concept. Send us some photos when you can.

Traction Fan 🙂 

My smallest, and largest, Seattle area train stations are shown below. Both are scratchbuilt in N-scale. The large one is Seattle Union Station which has been preserved and beautifully restored. You may have seen it on one of your trips to Seattle. The little train order station at Black River, WA. was torn down many years ago. I scratchbuilt the model from photos. The San Diego Trolley cars in the photos are very similar to those used on the Seattle "Max" trolley system.


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## Mithril_Maiden (Nov 28, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Mithril_Maiden;
> 
> I stand corrected on the cable car issue. I didn't know you were from San Francisco. Models of operating "cable cars" or "funiculars", do exist, and they are moved by cable not internal motors. Some are the type of cable car that, like a ski lift, is suspended below an aerial cable, but others have the cable below the track. There probably isn't any commercial underground cable model track available but many things on model railroading are built from scratch since there are no commercially produced models available. (see photos) However, I see your point about your models needing to move with motors.
> No, although my model railroad is set in Seattle, I live in San Diego. The Seattle traction system is called "Max" and I did ride it on a visit. The cars are modern Siemens trolleys like those used in San Diego. Apart from the paint job, they appear to be the same basic cars.
> ...


I stand corrected about people actually modeling underground cable track. I guess anything can be modeled if you really want to.

Max is the Portland, Oregon regional light rail system (I've ridden it). Seattle is Link light rail, along with the Sounder heavy commuter rail. I have indeed seen Seattle Union Station. I've stayed across the street in Chinatown a couple times, and other visits, I usually go to Chinatown at least once.

I'm quite fond of San Diego. I just went there back in August, actually. I've ridden that trolley.

I did just get a bunch of books, including Getting Started in Model Railroading, that I need to sit down and read.

I must say, that model of Seattle's Union Station looks really good.


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## Mithril_Maiden (Nov 28, 2020)

Anyhow, there hasn't been any progress on this in over two weeks, and there's a reason for that. I've realized now is just not the time to work on a serious layout like this. Not when I'm moving internationally in two months, but only moving for a year, and will be keeping stuff in storage. Just clearing my garage to create a workspace to do the benchwork will take a while because there's stuff that'll take time to sell, and by the time I've done it, I'm packing up to leave for Japan. And I'm in an apartment where the space for the 24" curves my layout really needs is, while doable, hard. Not to mention I just started model railroading and have no idea what I'm doing, and haven't done carpentry in years.

So, I shifted gears. I grabbed some boxes of Kato Unitrack, since I do have some N scale stuff, and I'm just working with that. It works because I can try a bunch of stuff and see how it runs, then take it apart and do something else, and so on, and so forth, and nothing I do is permanent. I'm rather having fun just building different layouts like its Lego or something and never sticking with anything. And I have a starter box of Bachmann EZ Track, so I can do this is HO and OO, too. I was running my OO Flying Scotsman for a bit the other day. This is probably what I'm going to be doing for a while. While I'm living in Japan, I won't have much space, and just having some Kato Unitrack that I can take out, build, run, then put away a few hours later will fit me. Not to mention my N scale collection heavily leans towards Kato, a brand I rather like, and I'm going to school in Shinjuku, the same neighborhood where Kato has their big corporate showroom and of _course_ I'm going to go visit the Kato showroom.

So, yea. I still want to do this layout eventually, but I'm not ready right now to do benchwork, or buy a bunch of scenery objects, or do something permanent.


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