# layout desing help please



## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

Hey guys im back and me and my best friend are building a layout together at my house. 
we have a table layout that is 6 ft wide by 16 ft long already built we are both young so lift outs arent a big issue. 

railroad's will be norfolk southern and csx with some bnsf and up interchange though in every now and again.

things we want are a tunnel somewhere a brige scene and a railyard with some industries though in to give the railroad something to do. we have some hopper cars box cars and bulkhead flat cars and piggie back flat cars. would like industries that use these cars so a cement factory maybe for the hoppers a lumber mill and freight terminal era is late 60s to present day. anything ive left out that is neede to know just say what it is and ill add it in and also will be ran on dcc have that already with one locomitive so far plans for plnety more haha thanks for any help lfb.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There are several uses for hopper cars. They include coal, sand and gravel.
So you could have a coal mine, a local coal dealer, and mine for gravel and
a sand and gravel dealer. An interesting project; build a trestle to unload
the hoppers for coal or sand and gravel dealer.

You could make several different loads for your bulkhead flats. Cut logs loaded
crosswise, long logs loaded lengthwise, rolled steel, rolls of cable or
electrical cables, large machines,
covered objects that could be any kind of freight. That then brings up
lumber yards, steel product factories, businesses of many kinds that
would use machines, freight warehouses that ship and receive large
objects, electrical companies.

You might get other ideas if you take an afternoon and drive along your
local railroad tracks and see what type of commodity is being shipped to
or from local businesses.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

alright thanks so i guess industires wise the gravle mine and gravle dealer and a warehouse or two to drop off flat cars and box cars at i know ns does alot of coal hauling but mostly what goes though my town is mixes freights its more mainline with not much industries clost to me but those are soem good ideas any track plan ideas for this layout.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

With a table area the size you have you could have nice yards, a meandering
mainline that basically follows the table 'edge' (but not too close), with a lot
of spurs to serve the industries. 

What you might do is check some of the yard and industrial ideas shown in
some of the pics and layout videos here on the Forum and on Youtube.
You will find you like this or that feature and can incorporate it into your layout.

You didn't mention what system will power your layout, DC or DCC. DCC
opens up all kinds of interesting layout capabilities that are difficult to
do with DC. For example you can have a WYE or Reverse loop and be
able to turn your trains around to go the opposite direction on the
same track. Or you could have a single track main line with occasional
passing sidings. With that you can run 2 trains in opposite directions,
one clockwise the other counter clockwise. That creates many hands on
operating challenges.

Since you have a buddy who will join you in operating your layout, one
of you could create a manifest of cars that will be a train. The other man
would then use a switcher to build the train as listed then run it a number
of layout rounds. It is then turned over to the first man who then breaks
the train and spots the cars at industries and yards specified on the
manifest. It makes for an enjoyable afternoon or evening actually 
doing something with your layout and not just watching a cat chase it's
tail around the tracks.

To add more operating challenges, do the switching while there is a
continuously running train making it's way around the layout and 
causing the switcher to have to pause to allow it clear track.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

okay cool and yes i did say dcc nce powercab for now till the track plan is totally figured out then i will be adding a smart booster to bump up the power and a 2nd thottle so we can both run trains at the same time doing different things i liek the ideas youve gaven of having a yard with one operator creating a train and all that stuff could you draw up a basic idea of a track plan based on that theme thanks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I haven't yet been brave enough to download one of the track layout
computer programs so can't post a classy drawing like some of our
guys can. 

But maybe I can get you thinking by suggesting a single track main oval
that has a big loop at each end of your layout. Think of filling one
loop with 5 or 6 yard tracks with turnouts off of a long lead track
that is connected to the main at each end. Think of the main loop and
the lead track looking like a tear drop. This would also create a
'reverse loop' so you can turn locos and trains around to go the
other way, possible because you have DCC. You will need a reverse
loop controller for it though.

I used a cut through a mesa to separate my yard from the main. You
could also do a tunnel through a mountain for the main at that point.

Then, with the table you suggest, you could have spur tracks off the
main here and there around the layout to serve your industries. Some
could paralell the main, others shoot off at angles or curves.
You could have one long one with other spurs off of it taking up
space in the middle of your layout.

Be sure to think also about passing sidings at about 3 places around
the layout so trains don't collide with each other. These can also
serve as a location for passenger stations if you have those trains.

I hope you get a picture of what I'm saying.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

yeah some good ideas on that post thanks alot one question how do i know how long to make the passing sidings i have a geneal idea of what i wanna do now and i suck at the free trak plan programs only one i was any good with was the atlas one which they quit supporting so guess ill just have to wing it haha thansk again.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There's gonna be two factors controlling the length of your passing
sidings. One is available space; that can be a serious limiter. The other
factor is to decide how long your trains might be. 

The way I run my single track main is to have my passenger trains
take the passing sidings which are also passenger stations. They are
much shorter than the freights that I sometimes run with 20 or more
cars. two of my passing sidings are more than 5 feet long, but the
3rd is only about 4 feet. The longest passenger train I run has
an FA-FA loco consist at the head of 3-70 ft passenger cars. It
just barely fits in the shorter siding.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

cool cool yeah i wanna run 30car freight trains pulled by a 2 loco consist of either sd70aces ac6000cws or sd40-2s stuff like that im more into the modern mainline locos and some es44acs as well how big is your layout just curious. can what i want be achived in my given space


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A 30 car freight is going to wrap around your layout but it's possible.
From my understanding of your available space you should be able to
get most of your ideas in.

My layout is an around the walls design with operating center
in the middle. The room is essentially 11 X 11, but I had to cut
back on one end to allow for a closet door.

If you are going to run those huge locos you'll definitely want to plan
on 22" or better radius curves.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

yeah i had planned on a 28inch radius curve on the ends for the big motive power and long modern rollingstock plus for a passenger steam excusion train to run as well later on since norfolk southenr is reviving the 611 class j steamer will that be a broad enough curve to handle the long locos and everything and still have plenty of safty net space cuz i don't want stuff taking a 3 and a half ft plunge to there death on my concrte flooring my bedroom was a garage at one point of time. thanks for all the help and advice on the track planning stuff been a real insight to me to help me get a good idea of what i want to do and how to go about doing it.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Is N/S restoring that beautiful 611? I had the good luck to ride a
long fan train from here to Valdosta, Ga. and back with it at
the head end some years ago. They brought the fire department to fill the
tender with water at Valdosta as we ate lunch.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

yes n\s is restoring her and bringing her up to all modern day codes and regulations its at the spencer shops getting restored and shes looking amazing those guys do great work there i live about an hour away from the musem if your every down there theres a good model train shop called the little choo choo shop and i hope to get to ride one of the excusion trains she will be pulling within the next few months she is scheduled to be fully restored by mid january. of the coming year.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

I'll try to get something done up. Seems I've missed a few of your PM's and I wasn't very timely in responding. But I'll see what I can do this week.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

What about the St Louis area? Modern maps show that all four of your desired road names operate to some degree in that city/surrounding area. It's a huge hub for all types of freight service that can be downsized to fit your space. Whacha think?


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

cabledawg that would be fine with me for area and that would be awesome if you could whip something up thanks again man.


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

Man this is difficult trying to fit a four road name interchange into such a small area! I might just build two yards on a loop and simulate the interchanges. But just to show that I haven't forgotten about you, here's a mock up of the actual (based on online RR maps) interchange in St Louis, MO. I like the concept but in it's current form and sticking with the 28"R curves, it simply doesn't work in the space allotted. No worries, I'll keep at it


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

that's intresting well i can go down to a 24 inch radius just want large enough to run larger modern power and a amtrak passenger train or the ns buisness train which i plan on collecting all the cars i need well atleas 4 to six of them and two deisels haha just want to be able ot run bout anything so as long as the curves can handel that kidna stuff im happy. 
and if it makes life eaiser i can settle for just interhcagning between bnsf and csx and thsoe be my two main road names. thanks again man.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

LFB

If you want to see an interesting and quite complex interchange
between CSX, NS and Florida East Coast, Google Earth
Jacksonville Florida. Start in the NE section of
the city and slowly move SW following the tracks.

CSX has several yards in various parts of
Jacksonville including one where they keep the
executive trains in the West section of
the city. In addition to the various yards there is
a big Intermodal yard with tracks to our Port. There is
also a large yard devoted to Car haulers where
imported cars are loaded for East Coast and midwest
destinations. 

CSX has mains that go to Waycross, Brunswick,
Orlando, Tampa and New Orleans.

Norfolk Southern's main from here goes thru
Valdosta to Macon and Atlanta.  Florida East Coast runs from
one CSX yard across the St. Johns River Bascule (lift) bridge
to Daytona Beach and Miami. They have a large yard in S part
of Jacksonville.

You'll get a lot of good yard and spur modelling ideas from
the meandering tracks of these railroads here in the City.

Don


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## little fat buddy (Jan 14, 2011)

cool thanks don for the information on the railroad.


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