# MTH Engine



## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

So I bought an entry level HO set from Bachman to test my engines while I build my platform. My Bachman Santa Fe engine works well. My broadway Limited Light Mikado flies around the track.

I also bought this:
*MTH HO PRR 4-6-2 K4 Steam Engine 8032371*

Now, this engine smokes and starts. My question is about speed-it goes SO slow. Is that just because I am using a starter set? It works on command, smoke and sound look good but it goes no more than 60% speed of the other two-maybe less. 

Is this a problem? 

Thanks in Advance.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Well- I read that my voltage may need to be higher-12 v controlling runs the backman and the BLT perfect but the MTH needs 15 volts?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

What "entry level HO set from Bachman" do you have?


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006KQGJ8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1



This one

I have a bunch of ez track so I have about 3 ft straight section. Just a test track. Installing type 83 track on the layout (mostly flex track). Just figured it would be good to test my own engines.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

MTH HO PRR 4-6-2 K4 Steam Engine 8032371 | Jason's Hobby Depot | Trains and Locomotives | Model Trains | Toy Trains | Railroads 

thats the exact engine I purchased


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Are you using a Bachmann EZ DCC system or a simple
DC power pack?

Don


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

DonR said:


> Are you using a Bachmann EZ DCC system or a simple
> DC power pack?
> 
> Don


Simple power pack


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

_



NMRA STANDARDS S-9 Electrical
I. POWER
A. Full throttle voltage available at railhead shall not be less than 12 volts direct current at maximum anticipated load.

Click to expand...

_Most DC power supplies put out 16-18V max. If the Bachmann only puts out 12V max that's your problem.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

I am not sure how to test the powerpack-but the other two engines do go faster-but not as fast as the hobbystore.

Amazon.com: Bachmann Trains 44211 Power Pack with Speed Controller Train Toy: Toys & Games 

That what the powerpack looks like


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

When Model Railroader Magazine began testing the early models issued by MTH, their complaint was that it takes an inordinate amount of startup voltage to get MTH steamers underway. This has the effect of clipping the top end voltage because you run out of it before the model can get to its designed speed if using DC. I don't know what MRM used for a power supply or what their DC controller is/was, but whatever the combination, the loco only made about 70% of it's top scale speed.

You should test the top voltage output for your device. I think you'd want in excess of 17 volts because the MTH locos need about 6 before anything happens.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

mesenteria said:


> When Model Railroader Magazine began testing the early models issued by MTH, their complaint was that it takes an inordinate amount of startup voltage to get MTH steamers underway. This has the effect of clipping the top end voltage because you run out of it before the model can get to its designed speed if using DC. I don't know what MRM used for a power supply or what their DC controller is/was, but whatever the combination, the loco only made about 70% of it's top scale speed.
> 
> You should test the top voltage output for your device. I think you'd want in excess of 17 volts because the MTH locos need about 6 before anything happens.


That is EXACTLY what is occurring! It takes almost 1/2 power just to get her moving. So when I wire my DCC system for my layout I will have to have an excess of 17 volts for the main line with the MTH. 

Regardless, she sounds and looks great with smoke and all- I was just confused why she was only running 3/4 as fast as my other engines. That seems to explain it...


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Could be a setting in one of its cv variables. But you'd need a dcc system to set it. At least one of mine has the "start" voltage setting variable.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

repman66 said:


> So when I wire my DCC system for my layout I will have to have an excess of 17 volts for the main line with the MTH.


DCC provides a constant 14V to the track. The loco's decoder determines what voltage to send to the motor based on the "signal" it gets sent from the throttle. What the decoder sends can be adjusted by CV settings.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

repman66 said:


> That is EXACTLY what is occurring! It takes almost 1/2 power just to get her moving. So when I wire my DCC system for my layout I will have to have an excess of 17 volts for the main line with the MTH.
> 
> Regardless, she sounds and looks great with smoke and all- I was just confused why she was only running 3/4 as fast as my other engines. That seems to explain it...


DCC enables you to set the "start voltage" (some systems use different terms) so that when you hit Speed Step 1, it will send ~6v to the motor, thus starting it in the first speed step. Likewise, it allows you to set the max voltage to regulate the top speed if desired, but you're still limited to what your system is putting out, usually ~14v. Because the DCC decoder can distribute that 14v more efficiently that straight DC, you can often squeeze a little more speed out of your loco in DCC.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

Thank you for all the responses! I picked up an 18 volt power pack to see if that made any difference (will test when I get home from work).

I can wait till I have my DCC setup to see this baby purr- she works excellent on lower speeds-everything is synchronized. I was shocked how get she runs on the lowest gear, no shuttering like I am used to very realistic. 

I'll keep everyone updated when I test the new power pack!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Just be forewarned: depending on how the MTH decoder handles voltage to the motor when running DC only, you may not see much if any change. I hope you didn't spend a lot on a bigger DC powerpack just to be disappointed.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

CTValleyRR said:


> Just be forewarned: depending on how the MTH decoder handles voltage to the motor when running DC only, you may not see much if any change. I hope you didn't spend a lot on a bigger DC powerpack just to be disappointed.


I only spent 30 bucks - Just an experiment. I'm not that worried I'll be setting up my DCC system (I have a lot more to read on the subject so I spent more money on books- the electrical side terrifies me). 

Thanks for all of your help.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It ain't rocket science. Don't make it harder than it is.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> It ain't rocket science. Don't make it harder than it is.


It's easier to tell who you're addressing if you actually quote the statement you're commenting on.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

CTValleyRR said:


> It's easier to tell who you're addressing if you actually quote the statement you're commenting on.


Repman66


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

From my past experience, good running loco's were geared lower to pull better and run smoother, because of this they will run slower. Most really good loco's won't run as fast as the cheap bachmann sets. That really kind of goes for all scales, You will find some loco's that run as fast or faster that are more expensive but the general rule is most run slower. most cheap bachmann sets runs fast enough to sling themselves off the track.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

BEMO locomotives are programmed to run slower than the average HO scale locomotive. They are usually geared lower for steep grades and top out at about 45 scale MPH. 

It does depend upon the line. SSB standard gauge will run faster than RhB narrow gauge which has a top speed of 45 MPH anywhere on the line. That speed is rarely reached in actual operation. 25 MPH is usually the highest speeds on the RhB.


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## mosin44 (Mar 7, 2021)

repman66 said:


> So I bought an entry level HO set from Bachman to test my engines while I build my platform. My Bachman Santa Fe engine works well. My broadway Limited Light Mikado flies around the track.
> 
> I also bought this:
> *MTH HO PRR 4-6-2 K4 Steam Engine 8032371*
> ...


Based on some of the folks on YouTube who publish refurbishing videos (not just 1 or 2 but several), some gearboxes are designed for speed, and others for torque. I would do a test of putting a long/heavy train behind it and see if it is happy. Compare this to one of your super fast ones.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

repman66 said:


> I only spent 30 bucks - Just an experiment. I'm not that worried I'll be setting up my DCC system (I have a lot more to read on the subject so I spent more money on books- the electrical side terrifies me).
> 
> Thanks for all of your help.


repman66;

To learn all you are likely to know about DCC, get the book "Basic DCC wiring" by Mike Polsgrove. It covers a wide variety of DCC topics in simple text and color photos. You can order a copy at www.amazon.com Another point. Since you started with a Bachmann set, you might be tempted to buy the Bachmann EZ-Command DCC system. Don't do that. It is a limited system with no ability to program CVs, like the starting, and maximum speed voltage settings people have been talking to you about. Instead look at the NCE Powercab, Digitrax or MRC prodigy DCC systems. All are good quality, "full featured" systems that can program CVs.

Traction Fan


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## DennisLB (Dec 27, 2018)

repman66 said:


> So I bought an entry level HO set from Bachman to test my engines while I build my platform. My Bachman Santa Fe engine works well. My broadway Limited Light Mikado flies around the track.
> 
> I also bought this:
> *MTH HO PRR 4-6-2 K4 Steam Engine 8032371*
> ...


What you have there is the best of the best by MTH. Protosounds 3.0 means it has MTH's DCS system (Digital Command System). You can run it with the DCS Commander which you can buy for a few more bucks. It can sit on the track and not respond until you tell it to. It is all I run on my layout. I can get my K-4 up to 70 SMPH.
Dennis


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

I would echo Traction Fan's recommendation, but would suggest an NCE PowerCab instead of a ProCab, unless you're planning a large layout with wireless throttles. PowerCab is less expensive, is self contained, and will do anything you need as far as programming decoders is concerned. You can add a power booster later if you want to run more than two HO or three N scale trains simultaneously. I got mine from Tony's Train Exchange, and they gave me a lengthy phone consultation comparing brands, features, and the operating implications of various choices, then gave me a bargain price on a PowerCab.
Alternatively, you can invest $50 +/- in three Arduino style microprocessor circuit boards that go together without soldering, download some free software onto your computer and your cellphone or tablet, and control Your DCC locomotives wirelessly from either handheld device, and program decoders from your computer. Search DCC++ on YouTube.
It's also quite possible, depending on how the decoder in your MTH steamer is set up that it is not delivering the full 12V DC to the motor that it's picking up from the rails, maybe to protect the circuitry from damage. You might find that when it's fed a true DCC signal it'll give you closer to scale speed, as DennisLB pointed out above. You'll probably also find that a heavy train of cars doesn't slow it down much. Most important, have fun doing it!


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

repman66 said:


> So I bought an entry level HO set from Bachman to test my engines while I build my platform. My Bachman Santa Fe engine works well. My broadway Limited Light Mikado flies around the track.
> 
> I also bought this:
> *MTH HO PRR 4-6-2 K4 Steam Engine 8032371*
> ...


First things first: No two engines are going to perform alike, even from the same manufacturer, but here you have a tomato, and apple and an orange and are concerned that they don't all taste alike. The Bachmann is a DC only with loosey goosey mechanicals 1/2 step above a throw away child's toy, designed to sell for 1/10 the price of the other two, so comparing the performance of the other two to it is like comparing the performance of a racing go kart to the performance of the BMW 320i and Lexus SUV in your driveway. Yes the go kart is faster accelerating, but so what, would you want to drive it in traffic to work every day? 
Second: Top speed of a loco is meaningless in model railroading! Real trains are actually really slow typically running at actual 15 - 30 mph, which is a very slow walking pace in HO scale speed, Even on the mainline, the fastest through freights and passenger trains running long distances in nearly a straight line seldom get up over 60 mph. So low speed performance, i.e. being able to start off very slowly and gradually building speed, and the tractive effort to be able to pull long strings of cars from a stop and over grades smoothly without stuttering or having to adjust the throttle is much more prototypical and will soon become apparent and important to you too once you put them on a layout and start trying to simulate real trains, which is what separates toy trains around the christmas tree from model railroading. If you wanted something that goes fast around a track, you may have been happier with slot cars. Just sayin. Most model railroaders brag and show off how SLOW their locomotives can run, and how many cars it can pull, not how fast they run. Most all will run too fast to ever be run at top speed but the manufacturers are starting to slow them down due to market pressure.
Third you are comparing a locomotive that was designed to run on a cheap variable voltage dc powerpack by a preteenager to the other two sophisticated engines with DCC decoders on board designed to operate on a DCC power buss constant square wave AC voltage with digitally controlled, nearly infinitely adjustable speed range and many other desirable performance parameters of a DCC control system. Yes they will run on DC, but that ability was added as almost an afterthought with just enough added electronics to run and demonstrate some off the expanded features so as not to completely alienate those buyers with an older DC only layout until they see the light and convert to DCC. Once again, compare owning a 1950s era car to one of today's multi-featured electronically controlled cars. The 50's car was much simper under the hood and faster to learn everything about it, after all YOU controlled the gas, the shifting, the steering and the stopping, but it also did little else with minimal creature comfort, whereas today's car can do so much more, even some self drive and have a complete computer with entertainment, internet, and navigation system aboard, not to mention cruise, automatic transmission, climate control and on and on. That thick owners manual seemed daunting at first, but it quickly became second nature to you until you wouldn't want to drive for long without it. That's how breaking into DCC is! Seems insurmountable at first with all the new terms and features, but once you change you mindset to forgetting about the old way of doing things and let yourself open to adapting to the new, you'll quickly find that DCC is far EASIER to install and use, and all the extra possibilities and features will be assimilated and appreciated in a short time, and it will open up so many new possibilities. 
Fourth, *DON"T EVEN UNPACK* that higher voltage transformer, trying to run your two good locos on a higher DC voltage than their decoder was designed for is a sure recipe for electrical disaster!!! 
Take it back to where you bought it and exchange it for an NCE powercab DCC system! It's not a whole lot more money than that power pack @ about 170.00 discounted retail, ( less than 1/2 the cost of one of your locos!) and is one of the best, the easiest to use and trouble free, yet full featured DCC system on the market. It has a very large and responsive support base both from NCE and online. It hooks up to a simple layout with just two wires like a DC system so you can be up and running within 10- 15 minutes of unpacking it, and has a very shallow learning curve from there, yet it is infinitely expandable so it won't become obsolete and you won't outgrow it ever. You'll thank me for recommending it! I am using one with a few expansions added on a two deck 8x18' N scale layout with more than 13 SCALE MILES of track and > 60 turnouts!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

VTtrainguy said:


> I would echo Traction Fan's recommendation, but would suggest an NCE PowerCab instead of a ProCab, unless you're planning a large layout with wireless throttles. PowerCab is less expensive, is self contained, and will do anything you need as far as programming decoders is concerned. You can add a power booster later if you want to run more than two HO or three N scale trains simultaneously. I got mine from Tony's Train Exchange, and they gave me a lengthy phone consultation comparing brands, features, and the operating implications of various choices, then gave me a bargain price on a Power Cab.
> Alternatively, you can invest $50 +/- in three Arduino style microprocessor circuit boards that go together without soldering, download some free software onto your computer and your cellphone or tablet, and control Your DCC locomotives wirelessly from either handheld device, and program decoders from your computer. Search DCC++ on YouTube.
> It's also quite possible, depending on how the decoder in your MTH steamer is set up that it is not delivering the full 12V DC to the motor that it's picking up from the rails, maybe to protect the circuitry from damage. You might find that when it's fed a true DCC signal it'll give you closer to scale speed, as DennisLB pointed out above. You'll probably also find that a heavy train of cars doesn't slow it down much. Most important, have fun doing it!


VTtrainguy;

Actually the NCE "Pro-cab" was a mistake on my part. I meant to recommend the NCE Powercab, the system I use.

Traction Fan 😕


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## Tranz4mr (Sep 3, 2013)

MTH’s version of DCC doesn’t follow the industry standards. There aren’t many CV’s that can be changed at least not on the one at our club. Our D&RGW challenger does run well on NCE DCC though.


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

traction fan said:


> repman66;
> 
> To learn all you are likely to know about DCC, get the book "Basic DCC wiring" by Mike Polsgrove. It covers a wide variety of DCC topics in simple text and color photos. You can order a copy at www.amazon.com Another point. Since you started with a Bachmann set, you might be tempted to buy the Bachmann EZ-Command DCC system. Don't do that. It is a limited system with no ability to program CVs, like the starting, and maximum speed voltage settings people have been talking to you about. Instead look at the NCE Powercab, Digitrax or MRC prodigy DCC systems. All are good quality, "full featured" systems that can program CVs.
> 
> Traction Fan


I must be doing something right-that is the book I am currently reading! 

I was looking at a Digitrax system

Honestly, next step is testing my created track plan. Then laying track. Then wiring. Then testing the electric---- wew. I have a long way to go.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

repman66 said:


> I must be doing something right-that is the book I am currently reading!
> 
> I was looking at a Digitrax system
> 
> Honestly, next step is testing my created track plan. Then laying track. Then wiring. Then testing the electric---- wew. I have a long way to go.


repman66;

Yes, there is a very long way to go. However the whole point of a hobby is to occupy your spare time, in an enjoyable fashion. You could just buy a completed model railroad, or pay a company to custom build one for you. That would be faster, and require no effort, but a ton of money. To me it doesn't seem like fun either. Model railroading is very much about the "journey" not the "destination."

Go forth and learn, while having fun 😄 

Traction Fan


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

traction fan said:


> repman66;
> 
> Yes, there is a very long way to go. However the whole point of a hobby is to occupy your spare time, in an enjoyable fashion. You could just buy a completed model railroad, or pay a company to custom build one for you. That would be faster, and require no effort, but a ton of money. To me it doesn't seem like fun either. Model railroading is very much about the "journey" not the "destination."
> 
> ...


I'm doing it a 5-10 hours a week, having a beer and listening to tunes. Can't complain! I am sure I will change a ton of things, I am sure I have/will make a ton of mistakes but being done isn't the goal. Figuring out how to do all this stuff is and building railroads for the rest of my life IS!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

repman66 said:


> I'm doing it a 5-10 hours a week, having a beer and listening to tunes. Can't complain! I am sure I will change a ton of things, I am sure I have/will make a ton of mistakes but being done isn't the goal. Figuring out how to do all this stuff is and building railroads for the rest of my life IS!


Well, this is the place to ask questions as they come up. By the way, there's no real "right" or "wrong" about most things in this hobby. We have all done some strange things at one time or another, and we have learned from our mistakes as we go along. It's pretty much like learning anything else. If by "building railroads for the rest of my life" means you're anxious to get something running then get some Kato Unitrack and set something temporary up on a table, or a sheet of plywood on sawhorses. That's quite fast. If, on the other hand you mean you expect to enjoy this hobby for the rest of your life then, you and me brother. 😊 

Traction Fan


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

repman66 said:


> I must be doing something right-that is the book I am currently reading!
> 
> I was looking at a Digitrax system
> 
> Honestly, next step is testing my created track plan. Then laying track. Then wiring. Then testing the electric---- wew. I have a long way to go.


I too considered a Digitrax system for my first DCC system, but after doing extensive research I went with the NCE *Powercab* instead (Dang it NCE: it would have been better to have selected two less similar names for your two systems. Powercab and Procab are just too similar and the two prefixes have a similar connotation as well...) and here's why I did: Digitrax was one of the early DCC system providers, pretty much the only game in the states early on. Lets call them the Microsoft (MS) of DCC. Like MS, Digitrax used excellent marketing, practically giving their system away to clubs for their club layouts and deeply discounting systems to the members for their home systems, both to be compatable and to grow users, so they quickly developed a large user base. With plenty of help from the local club gurus when they ran into problems the club members were able to eventually get their systems figured out. However much like MS, Digitrax grew so quickly in so many directions it became the " 50 bladed Swiss army knife" system trying to be everything to everybody, they became bloated with many systems, components, adapters, and add ons and they insist on using anagrams and mostly meanless numbers for their components until you need a Digitrax to English dictionary to figure out what parts you need. I don't blame them, they have so many parts that do similar things or are superseded versions of a previous product to keep straight. I still need a cheat sheet to read their user forum, and could not recommend any one of their systems because of all the cryptic specifications, what works with what version, constant updates to correct problems, and overlaps along with pricing that can add up quicker than my budget allowed. Again like MS with all their bloatware, 1/2 baked expensive add-ons, crashes, viruses, along with their weekly updates. Basic PC systems are inexpensive, but they really can't do anything much out of the box. Don't get me wrong, I think Digitrax is fine equipment, just more complex than I wanted to deal with, and I'm not a technophobe, I've had computers since before Bill Gates graduated High School (the truth!). I started owning x86 computers when they first came out and was running this little add on program called Windows v 1.3! However today I stay away from any version of Windows, I run under Linux Mint.
I would compare NCE to Apple computers. They put their all behind their two systems, worked out most all of the bugs, and include everything in the box you need to get up and running immediately. You take it out of the box, plug it in, hook up a couple wires, push a couple well explained buttons AND IT WORKS the first time. Then they added the extras the power users wanted that are just as easy to understand what they do and how to connect them into the system. It's all modular building blocks, so nothing is obsoleted or needs repurchasing as your system grows.

_Disclaimer_: I feel I need to say I have no connection to NCE, I bought all my system through the same channels and at the same prices as everyone else, I'm just a VERY satisfied user!


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Funny, people go to great lengths to diminish Digitrax, most often claiming that they're too complex, or that their manuals are inscrutable or arcane, and that they're just....well....icky. I'm still using the same two DT400 throttles I purchased 13 years ago, the same DB150 command station, and the same power supply (which I admit to finding was not included with the purchase and had to be ordered separately...not a cool move on Digitrax's part). I did actually read the manual to figure out how to use the system, but once I had practiced with a couple of button pushes, bang...I, too, was up and running. It worked, the first time. Still does.


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## BigGRacing (Sep 25, 2020)

scenicsRme said:


> I'm just a VERY satisfied user!


 Very interesting, I greatly appreciate your insight! You have given me more to consider as I want a DCC system this summer.


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## Steve Rothstein (Jan 1, 2021)

I am a beginner in model railroading and in DCC. I just really got into the hobby a few months ago. I model in N gauge and started with a DC system before rapidly switching to DCC. I started with DC knowing I would change because it let me get a layout up and running more quickly, even though it was more expensive overall. I made my choice of equipment based on my LHS since I had not yet joined the forum to read the opinions here (unusual of me because I usually do more research on-line first).

I chose Digitrax and bought a DCS52 Zephyr system. I just found the second flaw on the system but also found a new advantage I had not known about. The first flaw, and this might be a significant point for you to consider, is that the Zephyr uses a throttle that works like a DC throttle. That means that the rotating control is fixed with a set zero throttle position and a set full throttle position and so on. The forward reverse switch is also a hard wired switch. Where this can cause problems is that when you switch locomotives, the throttle is set to what you had the first locomotive running at and sends those signals to the second locomotive. NCE and other DCC systems use electronics and when you switch locomotives remember what it was doing and resume from that point. This is not a big problem for me when I am running multiple trains on multiple tracks. But when I took the layout down for redesign and had just one loop of track, I could not get the two trains running smoothly on it because each time I switched it changed what the train was doing. Running two trains at once on one loop is one of the advantages of DCC and this was pretty much nullified. This can be solved by buying a second throttle of some type (either a second physical throttle to connect or an interface that lets you use a phone or tablet for throttles), The Zephyr has an advantage here that sort of fixes this by allowing you to use two DC power packs as what it calls jump throttles. You connect them to the Zephyr instead of the track and you can assign them locomotives to control. All you get is the throttle and direction just like you were controlling DC locomotives, none of the other DCC functions, though the Zephyr can still address their functions. Now that I am back up to multiple loops, this is not a problem for me but is a point to consider.

I found what I think is a flaw in the Zephyr but it might be a flaw in all systems. I am using 4 digit addressing for my system and was trying to be consistent in this (the consistency is not required, just a preference - the address used for each locomotive is independent and you can use 2 digit and 4 digit addressing at the same time). I use the road number as the locomotive address and being an old computer guy, I add leading zeros as necessary. So, when on of my F7s had a road number of 40, I set it in the system as 0040. Because of the way DCC stores the four digit address in two different memory locations, it does not recognize an address with two zeros up front. It sets that CV to null and it wont read. I did not know this and the system allowed me to program it in but then I got no response at all for any commands to the locomotive. Fortunately, my LHS knew about it and told me how to fix the problem as soon as I described it to them. I think this is a flaw in DCC and not in the Zephyr but I am not sure.

The other advantage I found as a result of this is that the Zephyr had a USB port that allows you to connect a laptop directly to it. This means I can get a copy of DecoderPro or JMRI software and use that on my system with the Zephyr. I do not know if the NCE has this or not, but it is something you might look at. The easy expansion into computer use might be important later on. It migth not.

I mention these all only as points to consider. I am happy with the Zephyr, but have never used NCE to make a comparison.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

I probably shouldn't...

If Digitrax is complex then I can only assume other systems operate on voice commands... or read your mind.

Microsoft is the spawn of evil. Apple is good. 

Say no more.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The usual complaint is the manual, not the systems. I fine the manuals do a great job of explaining the device, they just don't hold your hand, you actually need to read them to see where and how to use things. But most of all I feel that digitrax provides a real system approach to DCC.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Personally, I would say Digitrax, NCE, or MRC, at the user's option. My personal preference is for MRC, because of the thumb wheel issue on NCE and the locomotive acquisition issue on Digitrax (where a loco acquired with the primary command station moves to the throttle position of the command station, not what it was set for previously). But that's just personal. If you can tolerate a touch-screen interface, Roco z21 might be more your speed. But it's hard to go wrong with any of them.


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## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

If I were planning from the get-go to build a huge railroad empire I might consider Digitrax, but since that's not in the cards I'm glad I started with NCE. The learning was easy, and relatively inexpensive, but from here on in it's going to be DCC++.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Why fight with dcc...?

Use the Roco z21 software app (running on iOS or Android).
This is *free* to download and use forever.

Use a compatible "control box" -- such as the z21 (white box) or Z21 (black box) or the Digikeijs DR5000 (which might be the best choice of all right now).

Dcc gets _MUCH_ easier with this software/hardware.

I would have never gotten as far as I have stumbling along with the "pushbutton" and "figure the math out manually" (coding) approach.

_(I realize I've posted this before, but I'm gonna keep right on touting "the graphical approach", because it's... well... because it's superior...)_


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

J.Albert1949 said:


> Why fight with dcc...?
> 
> Use the Roco z21 software app (running on iOS or Android).
> This is *free* to download and use forever.
> ...


You keep bringing this up, your misguided assertion that it is somehow superior. It isn't. YOU like it better, but that doesn't make it better for everyone.

You can run the basic DCC functions from ANY system, just as easily, and with as few touches as the z21 or the Digikeijs... but if you want to really program the advanced functions, then you have to figure out what CV values do what. No getting around it. If you chose not to use that functionality, fine... but you can also chose not to do so with any other DCC system. This is an advanced topic, and doesn't affect basic DCC operation on any system.

And as I have repeatedly said, and will continue to point out, there are numerous problems with a touch-screen based system, in terms of both lack of tactile feedback and difficulty of fine control. Any user who doesn't want to have to actually look at his controller as he's driving (you know, feeling that firm "click" as you increase or decrease the throttle by one speed step using only your thumb) is totally out of luck.

Again, NOT saying the system is bad, but it's not for everyone. So do everyone a favor, and stop making it out like it's the answer to every model railroader's prayers. You can say it as many times as you want -- repetition doesn't make it true.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

With JMRI connected its actually easy to make a customized throttle that is specific to each engine that works on your phone. I've tried this and ran a couple of hours, that was over a year ago and I gave up as the flat screen just does not work for me. I've since advanced from the DT402D to the DT602D, basically when an emergency arises, the flat screen seemed to not work, no touch feedback and you have to be looking at the screen. I'll stick with my DT602D!


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## repman66 (Mar 10, 2021)

There is a lot in this topic.... I am reading the literature recommended and then will come back to everyone for a recommendation.

Btw,got the real DC controller and the engine went ridiculously fast-I tried it and it works so as the user previously said I am now putting it away!


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