# Frontier 88



## alaft61ri (Oct 11, 2019)

Does anyone have a frontier 88 I been looking on ebay and the prices very from 85.00 to 160..just engine and tender. why and how do they run. Thanks 
Al


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Originally the 21088 ran fine. With age the two weak spots are the tender mounted 2 position reverse unit and the small HO style smoke unit. The easiest fix for a failed reverse unit is an electronic replacement. Easy because there is already a 4 wire harness between the engine and tender.
Harder is the smoke unit. They are usually repairable but it is more complicated than the other S gauge units and involves grinding off a peened attachment that was not designed to be removed.


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## DalesParts (Jun 26, 2021)

I love these old S scale trains. The 21088 is one of my favorites. I have many parts too and make cowcatcher and smoke stack reproductions. Fair sellers.


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## AmFlyerFan (Jan 27, 2019)

DalesParts said:


> I love these old S scale trains. The 21088 is one of my favorites. I have many parts too and make cowcatcher and smoke stack reproductions. Fair sellers.


I have that set. It runs & smokes well. The cars; 20, 30, & 40 are unlit but set up up for lighting, I may add it to the cars. My front truck rivet is bad/wobbly so I'll be ordering a new rivet. I see someone on E-bay has a front led headlight, I may get one of those or fab one myself.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

I have the 88 Frontier that I "detailed" by adding some "jewelry" to it. First, I added the EBay headlight. It's offered for about $20 by LBR Enterprises and is extremely easy to install. I also replaced the "molded-on" bell with a Lionel-O Polar Express swiveling bell with cradle and attached a fine necklace chain looped back to the engineer's cab. I also added a Lionel-O Polar Express steam whistle with "pull rod" run back through the engineer's cab roof. I clipped & stained a bunch of wooden match sticks and stacked them ln the tender hopper. I added a brass valved steam vent stack piped to one side of the boiler, and I added a canister to the boiler front. For a little color contrast I painted the canister green to match the cab and painted each end polished brass. Finally I added an engineer. I'm on the road right now but will be home this weekend. I'll post some pictures.
I do have a dilemma though. I bought another Franklin for my son-in- law and did all the jewelry work on it as well, only to find that it doesn't smoke. I now have the engine apart, have filed away the front end of the smoker and still can't get the disk out. I did buy a repair kit thinking that removing a few screws and replacing the wick would fix it. Now I'm afraid I'm going to ruin the smoke unit. Has anyone done any repairs to this unit who can give me some pointers so I don't foul it up? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan Jeffrey


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I do not have or ever worked on one of those engines. Sorry.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Based on the initial discussion of repair actions it appears you have read the "how to" in Clinic #1 on the Port Lines site. Used replacements can sometimes be purchased.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

AmFlyerFan said:


> I have that set. It runs & smokes well. The cars; 20, 30, & 40 are unlit but set up up for lighting, I may add it to the cars. My front truck rivet is bad/wobbly so I'll be ordering a new rivet. I see someone on E-bay has a front led headlight, I may get one of those or fab one myself.


Tom,
I did look at the 1 replacement for sale on EBay. I'm a little skittish about buying it though. I guess chances of it not working are no better or worse than buying the whole engine. I think I'll take a shot at fixing the one I have. Maybe I'll get lucky, or even learn something new.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

I have some photos of my modified Franklin. I also modified two cars that were offered with the Washington version, the flat car carrying a cannon and the exploding boxcar. I replaced the cannon with a horse drawn carriage, and I changed out the




























exploding mechanism on the box car by replacing it with a horse.
I made these changes so that the whole consist would be more compatible with our Dept 56 Dickens Village layout.


Dan Jeffrey (FlyerFever)


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Nice layout.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Mopac,
Thanks. My wife did most of the scenery! I do the wiring (mostly between "Honey-do" chores). What a mess that Dept 56 stuff is to wire especially if you want to change some thing from their standard configuration.
Good example-street lamps. Their standard offering is 4 lamps prewired daisy-chain to an AC/DC converter. The converter takes 120-VAC to 3-VDC. I have 30 lights spread all over the layout. Had to split them up, verify polarity (no markings on Chinese factory wiring) and hand wire banks of 4 to a converter and then run each converter to a 120VAC. I had a 25% failure rate on the lamps. Some accessories were 3VDC, some 12VDC & some were 120VAC, a real mish-mash.
Then the track & turnouts!
Enough of my rambling. My next layout is 3 separate loops interconnected so I can run 1 train between all 3 or have 3 independent trains running simultaneously, American Flyer of course.
Regards,


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Nice, and I especially love the crispness and clarity of the pictures.I wish my pictures came out as well,lol.. Again, very nice.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Nice. Looks like you use SHS sectional track and turnouts.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Thanks flyernut and Amflyer.
I took the pics with my Apple iphone 13 just recently purchased through Consumer Cellular. Consumer Cellular is OK for calls, but data network is lousy! Try to use Waze for my GPS and half the time I get network not available.
Yes, I did use SHS track on this layout. I had to "scrounge" a little bit from available MTH stock for one turnout and some additional track. Sorry to see it happen (MTH demise). My opinion the SHS/MTH track connection scheme much better than "equivalent" Flyonel, plus you used to be able to buy extension cables (plug&play) for turnouts. Flyonel turnouts need to have cable removed and extension cables spliced & soldered in to get addn'l distance from controller to turnout.
Any how, what a shame! I think Mike Wolf over extended, then COVID hit.

Thanks for the kudos and I'm honored to be a member of this forum!

Regards,
Dan Jeffrey (Flyer Fever)

PS: Another couple questions. I recently purchased from the American Models website a GG-1 in chrome / tuscan red stripe PRR finish. I also bought the set of 3 BUD passenger cars in silver/tuscan red stripe PRR finish thinking this would be a beautiful passenger train combo. To my disappointment, The GG-1 will not pull all 3 BUD cars and struggles pulling only 2. How would you solve? I thought of adding weight to the GG-1, or contact the factory for installation of traction tires or maybe both?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have a lot of AM engines and pull all kinds of trains with them. Some are high rail with traction tires, some are scale, no traction tires.
Lets begin with some pictures. First is a high rail E8 pulling six Budd cars, no problem even up a 2.4% grade. In fact I pull nine PRR Budd cars with the PRR version of the E8. Next is a PA/PA dual powered scale set pulling 5 scale length AM 80' coaches. It requires double heading to get this train moving on straight and level track. Double headed, the scale wheeled engines pull about one less coach than a single high rail engine with traction tires.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

If you want to pull the Budd coaches it takes traction tires or double heading, however one engine should pull three Budd cars. Double heading GG-1's is not really appropriate, so it will require a high rail version. As you can see, my layout also uses MTH track, it is flex with minimum 30"R curves. As I recall one scale engine should pull 4 Budd cars on level track. I am not at home to check it however.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is a little AM RS3 pulling six AM heavyweight passenger cars.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

I must admit that I'm an "S-novice" when it comes to picking scale vs Hi-Rail/AF. I get the written "concept, but being able to visually distinguish between the two, I would have issues. 
I do believe when I ordered both products (separate orders months apart) I ordered Flyer compatable.
Would this forum accept a video? I could set up & run, include a video.

Dan


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

First just post a closeup of one of the trucks so I can see the wheels.
To post a video it needs to be hosted on a site such as YouTube, then a link can be embedded in your post.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is a closeup of one of the trucks on an AM passenger car. The center wheels are scale, the outer wheels are high rail.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

I'll send some photos. I got some extra photos in by mistake but the GG-1 photos are in there. Forum wouldn't allow me to delete.
Dan


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Did you purchase that new from American Models? The reason I ask is it looks like the left most wheels, which should have the traction tires, are missing the rubber bands. I am pretty sure that is the high rail AC version. If the rubber tires are not present in the drive wheel grooves the engine will have no traction. There should be four traction tires.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Yes, I bought it directly from American Model's on-line catalog. I never even thought to look at the drive wheels!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Do you have any paperwork that shows what you purchased? You are looking for AC/American Flyer, DC Scale or DC High Rail. My eyes may be deceiving me, the pictures do not clearly show if the metal tire has a groove, or no groove. When I get home tomorrow afternoon I can take some closeup, high res pictures of the two wheel variations with and without a traction tire.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Tom,

OK, thanks for the help. I should have the paperwork. I'll dig for it tomorrow. I'm going to get the traction tires one way or another.

Again, thanks for your help.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I am back home from San Diego and took pictures of an AM E8 with high rail wheels and traction tires. It has been so long since I looked at these I forgot the traction tires were on the middle pair of wheels, not the rear as Lionel does. In the first picture of a UP E8, the traction tire is easily visible on the center wheel, it is thinner than Lionel's tire but can easily be felt with a finger nail. The second picture is an Alco PA with scale wheels and no traction tires. Note there is none on the center wheel nor is there any groove for one. Let me know which you have.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

One more teaser picture. Here is my single unit American Models E8 (traction tire version) loafing along on speed step 15 (out of 100) pulling nine (count them) PRR AM Budd cars up a 1% grade. I have a mixture of silver and chrome PRR Budd cars in that consist. We need to help get djjeffr's GG-1 running like it should.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have a pair of AM E8s. I will have to look again but I have not noticed any
traction tires. I am sure my AM GP9 does not have any. It has 4 wheel trucks.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

They all do if they are AC high rail. Here is the GP9. The wheels on the left have traction tires.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Does not make a lot of sense to me to not have traction tires. Poor design. My hi-rail GP9
is not a good puller. On a good day maybe 5 Gilbert cars. Freight not passenger cars. And then slip city. My E8s seem to be good but that is 2 powered units. And it is possible they have the traction tires on the middle wheels. While better than the Lionel the AM diesels are a bit of
disappointment. S scale must be hard to make a good engine.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I have some AM diesels without traction tires because they have scale wheels. Double headed, the scale engines pull as well as a single engine with traction tires. All my AM engines will pull 10 AM passenger cars up a 2% grade.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

I took more photos of the trucks & ran my finger over the wheels. No traction tires and no provisions for any. I also took a pic of the AM box. It clearly is checked "AC Hi-rail". So I'm thinking an email to the AM people is in order.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Might be better to just call them, in the past they always answered the phone.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Tom, I just checked my E8s. Middle wheel is not metal scale wheel. It is plastic HiRail wheels
but with traction tires. That is fine with me.

I agree, call them. Nice looking GG-1.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

I took more photos of the trucks & ran my finger over the wheels No traction tires and no provisions for any. I also took a pic of the AM box. It clearly is checked "AC Hi-rail". So I'm thinking an email to the AM people is in order.


mopac said:


> Tom, I just checked my E8s. Middle wheel is not metal scale wheel. It is plastic HiRail wheels
> but with traction tires. That is fine with me.
> 
> I agree, call them. Nice looking GG-1.


Thanks guys for all your help. I'll get it squared up one way or another.
Thanks, too for the compliments. I think the engine is good looking too. AM was actually running a sale when I bought it.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Running your finger over wheels will not work. You have to use your fingernail.
If you have traction tires they really sneak into the groove.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

mopac said:


> Running your finger over wheels will not work. You have to use your fingernail.
> If you have traction tires they really sneak into the groove.


Thanks. Tried the fingernail, no such luck. Sent an email to customer service. If I don't hear back by tomorrow, I'll take Tom's advice & call.

On another topic, I'm in the process of repairing a small smoke unit on the American Flyer "Franklin" engine. I bought a re-build kit on E-Bay from Little Steamers. Out of curiosity I did a resistance check on both the old and the new wire wound heating elements.
Reading on the old~39 ohms; reading on the new~17 ohms. Seems to me I'm not going to see much smoke after the rebuild. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

A 17 ohm smoke unit in an S gauge Franklin will smoke like crazy until it suffers an early death. These repair kits are being sold as replacements for both S gauge Franklins and HO gauge Hudsons and switchers. In reality they are for the HO application at 17 ohms.
A Gilbert HO engine is designed for maximum 12VDC power and the engines ran fairly fast at just 6V to 8V. The Franklins are running on 7V to 17VAC, and the engine is getting around 12V when running normally.
Using the formulas I=E/R and P=IIxR we can calculate the power dissipated in the smoke unit. IIxR is my way of typing I squared times resistance. The smoke unit resistance is relatively constant as the Nichrome wire heats up. At 8V the current is .47A, so the power dissipated is 3.75W. At 12V the current is .71A. so the power dissipated is 6W. A 39 ohm smoke element would only generate 1.15W at 12V, quite a difference. The right answer for the Franklin engine for best smoke is likely 28 to 30 ohms.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> A 17 ohm smoke unit in an S gauge Franklin will smoke like crazy until it suffers an early death. These repair kits are being sold as replacements for both S gauge Franklins and HO gauge Hudsons and switchers. I reality they are for the HO application at 17 ohms.
> A Gilbert HO engine is designed for maximum 12VDC power and the engines ran fairly fast at just 6V to 8V. The Franklins are running on 7V to 17VAC, and the engine is getting around 12V when running normally.
> Using the formulas I=E/R and P=IIxR we can calculate the power dissipated in the smoke unit. IIxR is my way of typing I squared times resistance. The smoke unit resistance is relatively constant as the Nichrome wire heats up. At 8V the current is .47A, so the power dissipated is 3.75W. At 12V the current is .71A. so the power dissipated is 6W. A 39 ohm smoke element would only generate 1.15W at 12V, quite a difference. The right answer for the Franklin engine for best smoke is likely 28 to 30 ohms.


Thanks Tom! I'm glad I asked! I'm going to rethink this. 


AmFlyer said:


> A 17 ohm smoke unit in an S gauge Franklin will smoke like crazy until it suffers an early death. These repair kits are being sold as replacements for both S gauge Franklins and HO gauge Hudsons and switchers. I reality they are for the HO application at 17 ohms.
> A Gilbert HO engine is designed for maximum 12VDC power and the engines ran fairly fast at just 6V to 8V. The Franklins are running on 7V to 17VAC, and the engine is getting around 12V when running normally.
> Using the formulas I=E/R and P=IIxR we can calculate the power dissipated in the smoke unit. IIxR is my way of typing I squared times resistance. The smoke unit resistance is relatively constant as the Nichrome wire heats up. At 8V the current is .47A, so the power dissipated is 3.75W. At 12V the current is .71A. so the power dissipated is 6W. A 39 ohm smoke element would only generate 1.15W at 12V, quite a difference. The right answer for the Franklin engine for best smoke is likely 28 to 30 ohms.


Thanks Tom. Glad I checked!


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You can put the 17 ohm replacement in the engine. It will not hurt the engine. If you can clean and lube the Franklin to run acceptably at 8v to 10v it will be ok.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> You can put the 17 ohm replacement in the engine. It will not hurt the engine. If you can clean and lube the Franklin to run acceptably at 8v to 10v it will be ok.


OK, it runs like a banshee now. Thanks for the advice.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I will add, the lower the ohms on the smoke wire the better it will smoke,but like
Tom said the shorter the life span of the wire. Around 30 ohms is where you want to be.
Put a loop or two around the wick and measure again. Do not let the loopings touch.
More loops of wire higher the ohms. Less loops lower the ohms.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

mopac said:


> I will add, the lower the ohms on the smoke wire the better it will smoke,but like
> Tom said the shorter the life span of the wire. Around 30 ohms is where you want to be.
> Put a loop or two around the wick and measure again. Do not let the loopings touch.
> More loops of wire higher the ohms. Less loops lower the ohms.


Mopac, thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I buttoned the unit up before you got back to me, so I'll deal with the 17 ohms for the time being. If & when the smoker goes bad again, I'll make sure my new resister is within the 30 ohm range or I'll add resistance by curling one of the resistor's lead wires to add resistance. I thought I'd learn something here and I learned a lot from you guys. Thanks!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Hope it is smoking good for you. Just don't run it full throttle for too long and you will be fine.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Actually just put the smoke unit together and sealed the disc with JB-Weld. Will install on chassis and reassemble & try tonight. Can't wait to try it.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Frustrated with Franklin! The only way I'm able to produce smoke with my Franklin smoke retrofit is to run it "flat out" for a long period of time. Even then, smoke output is minimal. Smoke unit casing is hot to the touch. I've even seen hot oil "spit" out of the stack! My take- Either I overfilled unit with oil or there's too much fiber for the size of the heater. Anybody have any ideas?


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

When smoke fluid spits out of the stack it is one of two causes. Either overfilling, or the fluid is not being absorbed into the wick. The most common reason for non absorption is an old, hardened wick. We know that is not so because it is a new wick and Nichrome wire.The only other cause I can think of is the wick is packed too tight into the chamber. If the air holes were blocked there would be a very weak choo choo sound and not enough force to carry the droplets out of the stack.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

Maybe I'll try pulling some of the wick out. I remember thinking I had a lot of wick compared to the chamber size. Thanks, it's got to be something fairly simple.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> Nice. Looks like you use SHS sectional track and turnouts.
> 
> AmFlyer, I'm not sure, but it appeared to me that you favor the SHS sectional track? I just wanted you to know that I ran across a bit of it (both MTH & SHS) on Trainz.com
> Both 5" & 10" sectional as well as some accessory (bumper section) pieces. Found MTH track block isolation separators as well.
> Also, gave up on Franklin smoker. Couldn't for the life of me get it to work.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Too bad about the Franklin, likely needs an entirely new smoke unit. 
I use SHS sectional track for temporary layouts operated with command control (Legacy.) For temporary layouts running Gilbert engines I use Gilbert track and turnouts. The 2-train feature of the turnouts makes having isolated blocks easy with no extra wiring or power switches.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> Too bad about the Franklin, likely needs an entirely new smoke unit.
> I use SHS sectional track for temporary layouts operated with command control (Legacy.) For temporary layouts running Gilbert engines I use Gilbert track and turnouts. The 2-train feature of the turnouts makes having isolated blocks easy with no extra wiring or power switches.


OK, I see. I hope you don't mind an unrelated question. Can you recommend any one who does custom painting of AF steamers & tenders?
I've purchased a #312 SIT that I plan to swap chassis with a 6 driver-wheel rig with the smoke unit in the boiler. I plan to install a can motor with electronic reversing unit replacing the smoke unit in the tender. The bodies of both the engine and tender are in excellent physical condition except for the paint.
I'd like to have a custom paint job with Tuscan cab roof & non-coal tender top; and a silver or grey boiler nose. I also have a #302 I'd like to paint with the same scheme.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I wish I knew someone. Two people I was aware of have stopped accepting additional work. I have a FlyerChief Berkshire (converted to TMCC) that I would like to have repainted as a Christmas engine but have failed to find a willing professional to undertake that project.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I do not know of someone on the forum that does custom painting.
Or off the forum.

That would be a tough one Tom.


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## djjeffr (10 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> I wish I knew someone. Two people I was aware of have stopped accepting additional work. I have a FlyerChief Berkshire (converted to TMCC) that I would like to have repainted as a Christmas engine but have failed to find a willing professional to undertake that project.
> ]


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Since I posted that message I have found a person who will do the engine painting for me. I am going to wait until next year.


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