# Need Help with 6019 and 3472 Milk Car



## wex209 (Dec 13, 2020)

I just dug out my 1949 Lionel 2025+ set that I had as a kid. I'm working on the 3472 Milk Car. Just replaced the shoes, the doors and reconnected the solenoid wires that were unattached. I just replaced the 6019 wiring but I am not 100% sure I did it correctly. In my test, I attached the transformer to an outside rail and the center rail. I press the "unload" button with the car on the track and nothing happens. Using a VOM, power is going to the side rail when I press the "unload" button. Questions I have: how do I know the coil on the 6019 is working. I feel warmth from it. What is the purpose of the coil? To activate the solenoid in the Milk Car through induction? How do I test the Milk Car w/o the 6019? Can I place power to one of the shoes and the metal car frame? 

Please provide your skilled view.
Regards,
Dave


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You have a lot of good questions. The milk car is simpler. Where did you connect the coil wires from the milk car? To each of the sliding shoes in the trucks? That is where they should go. To test use the two transformer leads one to each shoe

The 6019 coil is for uncoupling. SO two offset rails will power the car.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This link has the circuits you needs. This is from an older post. This a link to a 1949 manual

Bob Kenney supplied the original information.

Amazon has a Repair and operating guide that will solve your questions. For the life of me, I had to refer to it to answer your questions. Also a good image search helps but not all of the images can be copied.


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

Sometimes people focus in too much on one particular model number when looking up service manuals. There are a bunch of tips in the 3462 manual that apply to the 1949 and 50 3472. A couple tips in the 1949 model and basically zero in the 1950 model pages.


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

6019 wires. Solder with controller and track upside down, from left to right.


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## wex209 (Dec 13, 2020)

Thank you for your recent responses. I tested (per T-man) the Milk Car by touching the two shoes with the wires from the transformer. The car worked and spit out a milk container. Then, I direct soldered the transformer wires to the side track lugs underneath the 6019. I checked the voltage (14 vac) and it was fine. Turned off the transformer. I placed the car on the track and touched the transformer power lugs, and nothing. I even used some steel wool to clean the track a bit. I used a flashlight and saw that the shoes were touching the side tracks. I'm very puzzled now. 

BTW, I do have the 1949 manual as you mentioned, in front of me that I kept with the train set. I saw the writeup of the 6019 coil purpose. Good writeup.

The 6019 wiring is still a mystery and I need to wire it back properly. I inserted in this message a photo of the switch with colored wires. I'll move to wiring up the 6019 after the problem is figured out on why the car on the track test did not work. Any ideas to try?

Best regards,
Dave


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is half the picture. WIth the track upside down which color is left? What are the colors left to right. If blue, it belongs on the bottom, then red, black and white on top (with the controller upside down of course) 

Blue if left is from the center rail. White is from the outer rail. Black and red are from the isolated rails


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## wex209 (Dec 13, 2020)

Hi T-Man,

I wired up the track per your notes and a photo is attached with the track and the switch. I used a VOM that when I pressed the unload button, power was supplied to the two isolated rails. It just did not work with the car on the track. I examined the shoes and they are touching the tracks. I even placed (carefully) small pieces of aluminum foil on the two places of the isolated tracks where the shoes are, and it still did not work.

I just do not know what is going on. 

Any more suggestions?
Dave


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

wex209 said:


> BTW, I do have the 1949 manual as you mentioned, in front of me that I kept with the train set. I saw the writeup of the 6019 coil purpose. Good writeup.
> 
> View attachment 550770


I posted the pages from the 3462 because you need them also, not just the 1949 manual. Hence my earlier statement.

Another possibility is something could be shorting in the milk car when it's sitting on it's trucks. Loose wire, bad insulation, short in the truck itself (have seen the wires touching axles because the insulation shrank or someone dropped the car and caused a sideframe to bend, or the tabs holding the axle in place to bend, allowing too much slop.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Perhaps your track is not wired correctly. You may need to have the transformer common connected to the outside rails. And the "U" post is not always the common post on postwar transformers.


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## wex209 (Dec 13, 2020)

Thanks Quietman and Mike for jumping in. I have set up a test on the work bench and the 6019 is not connected to the layout. I do have the transformer common connected to the outside rail. I've measured using a VOLT meter the a/c voltage when it's been applied to the track connector. When the car is sitting on the track, I press the unload switch and the voltage is supplied to the side tracks. No voltage is shorted nor any drops in voltage are occurring. I was going to remove the box from the car and trace the shoe connections back to the solenoid and see if there are any shorts when the shoes are pressed upwards into the wheel mechanism. I think I need to satisfy what Quietman has stated above that shorting is not occurring. Frankly, it's my only hope of resolving this.

Best regards,
Dave


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you are frustrated disconnect the wires from the controller. Attach black and white together and touch green to red with the car on the track. If you redid the controller how about displaying another picture before trying anything else.
You need the 6019 wire diagram to make sure it is correct.


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

Something to keep in mind on the old cars. They either have cloth insulation or the old rubber has deteriorated and cracked / peeled. It's like what you see with the old controller wires. I just replaced the wires to the trucks on my 1950's made barrel car yesterday because the insulation started cracking right where it went through the hole in the metal under carriage and was causing a short. Had to replace the wires in the cattle car I have last year for the same reason.

Have also got a number of old accessories off ebay for cheap because "it doesn't work". 25 to 50 cents worth of wire and some time later . . . . ta da! it works.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The wire insulation can be deceiving with age and all it takes isa crack in the wrong place.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

If it works when powered directly, the problem is somewhere else. So, check the shoes are making contact , sometimes they look like they are but the solder joint isnt. And then check the track. Can only be one or the other. Try a diffrent car on the track and see if the unload option works. If that qorks ita in the shoe conection, if it dosen't its in the track.


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## wex209 (Dec 13, 2020)

After taking a two day break and doing some Christmas stuff, I disassembled the car after being unsuccessful at other areas to look. I unwired the track completely from the switch. I soldered the wires directly to the isolated two side tracks. The car didn't work, but it worked directly with power to the two shoes. That's when I took the wheels off, leaving the wires on the shoes, and I saw that when one shoe was pushed in, a bit of solder was touching one of the little copper holders and I corrected that. It now works when the car is on the tracks. So many of you were right; if it was not the track/switch, it had to be the shoes. So thank you! BTW, I did not have another car to test the track as you suggested. That would have pointed me in the direction of the car. 

I still have to wire the track and I will attempt to follow the wiring diagram to make that work. If anyone has an idea of the best way to solder the wires to the shoes, I would love that suggestion. i used a very small soldering tip but it was a struggle. I assume you could heat up the part that touches the track to melt the solder, too.

Best regards and happy holidays,
Dave


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It helps to tin the wire first. Im not a good solderer so i feel your pain. Just use a bit, and dont keep feeding it onto the wire. So, flux the wire and the part, tin the wire then solder it. I cant remember if they make a part thats easier to put on with less soldering, sorry. Someone else may know.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

sjm9911 said:


> It helps to tin the wire first....


+1. Been soldering since I was 5. My first "iron" was heated over a stove burner to solder.

Anyway, its always easier for beginners to tin the parts separately, let them cool (especially with PCBs, semiconductors or nearby plastic). They will then join with a pretty quick application of the iron. A nicely tinned iron tip helps. And a small "blob" of solder on the tip to quickly conduct heat from the tip to the part/wire. Then the new solder will flow onto the part. That is, heat the part by conducting the heat from the iron and apply the solder to a sperate area of the part, not at the iron tip. It's the same concept as sweating copper water pipes: "Heat the pipe, not the solder." YouTube has lots of educational videos on soldering.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Soldering is really a trivial task, unless you don't know how to do it.  It's frightening to see some of the stuff that comes in for repair!


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## Quietman (Oct 2, 2016)

I think the problem is that you're using a small iron. For the NASA high reliability soldering they teach 6 seconds max contact for the solder to melt and flow on both surfaces. Although this is to prevent damage to circuit boards and chips, I try to make it where I spend no more than 10 seconds in contact with track wiring, and try to use an iron / gun that gets me as close to 6 seconds as possible.

Soldering is a balance between the wattage rating of the iron (heat generation), the size of the tip (heat storage), and the material you are soldering (heat sink). You have to use a iron and tip that can keep up with the heat sink just long enough to heat up the surface and melt the solder in a way that it flows on its own. Dragging solder to make it spread causes high resistance cold solder joints.

You also need to know how to keep the tip cleaned and tinned properly to allow good heat transfer. And understanding the role of flux is another important point, just as important as the others.

There are a number of videos on youtube covering proper soldering techniques and maintenance of soldering tips.
it would be worth it for you to check them out and then practice on soldering to large objects like track.

You might want to look into a soldering gun. Weller makes both a 200 / 260W and a 100 / 140W gun. I use the 140 and also have a 150W iron with a HUGE tip. So far they've worked for me, but the 200W may be better than my 140W gun.
Thankfully, bakelite has a high melting temperature, so its forgiving to a point when it comes to melting it from too much heat.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For PCB work, the more important temperature is the soldering temperature max for the components. Most SMT components have a 260C for 10 second rating. Obviously, soldering at more than 260C is a crap shoot. I discovered that one specially sensitive component is the flickering LED bulbs. I was using a higher temperature to solder them to my flickering firebox board, and I was losing one or two for every four I soldered! Dropped the iron to 500F for the job and haven't lost another one yet.


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