# Is Lionel FS?



## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Watching all the activity, I believe Lionel is definitely for sale. Everything they are doing screams of a company elevating their EBITDA for a potential sell.

Since typically companies sell for EBITDA and/or Assets, the EBITDA sale makes the most sense to me. I know Lionel owns assets in the way of tooling and what not but they don't own any real manufacturing equipment. The only seem to supply some assembly in the Lionscale(Weaver) lines.

I have seen the rumor pop a couple of times about Bachmann, which could be interesting, but can't see the angle of them purchasing Lionel this way. If Bachmann was the buyer, I could see them pushing Lionel into a more universal control system based off DCC and Bluetooth. I could see them merging Williams into Lionel traditional items, being nonscale and utilizing bluetooth and generic sounds like what is happening with Lionchief plus. Then have the higher end scale items migrating to DCC protocol.

However I think the big appeal as a buyer will not be the assets as much as the Name and EBITDA. The Name is what moves them along and has allowed Lionel to weather major issues in the past. They have had many fiascoes even prior to this latest ERR decision. Which leads me further to believe the sale on EBITDA idea. No other logical reasoning makes sense than presenting this to potential buyers. Lionel ownership can show shedding a low profit line and present it as only the contractual obligations left on it with Atlas and 3rd rail until X date. Then look at the leaning of the staff, especially the higher paid staff. It just looks to ripe to me.


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## Guest (May 11, 2018)

Good question. The abundance of negative press lately diminishes the overall appeal. The biggest asset is their name and the long history of domination in the O-gauge market. But in today's market, that goes just so far. The name of the game is sales and a good return on investment. We of course are not privy to Lionel's recent sales or their profit line. So all of this is speculation.

Lionel's owners will no doubt just take so much of negative press, and if the sales and profits are not acceptable to the investors, then you can look for a big change. Are they there now, only they know.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

Speculation, but only time will tell!!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Bachmann's parent company certainly has the deep pockets to purchase Lionel if they so desire.

Bill


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

My own dream, probably not tethered to reality, is the Menards buys Lionel. 

I know several private equity managers like these, uh . . . gentlemen running Lionel. They refer to the sale of the company they own and are selling as "the liquidity moment." These guys have a challenge because in the last twelve years Lionel's revenues, near as one can figure out from various sources, has decreased about .7% per year. That doesn't mean their profit margin has not improved, but no one gets really enthusiastic about a company with decreased sales.

I wish Lionel would get it over with though.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Sounds like a death spiral to me. Of course, that's likely because they're not putting money into the right places, instead focusing on silly toys like Mega Tracks.  I hear they have a warehouse full of that junk that they can't sell!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Sounds like a death spiral to me. Of course, that's likely because they're not putting money into the right places, instead focusing on silly toys like Mega Tracks.  I hear they have a warehouse full of that junk that they can't sell!


Any new buyer will be confident he can "turn in around" otherwise he will not be buying it. So it will be interesting to see who the buyer is, assuming current owners can find one, and who that buyer is will tell you alot about their plans, right away. One of the companies not interested is mine. We heard something about it being for sale, but building and selling model trains just isn't even remotely close to what we do. I was tempted to have our attorneys look into it just out of curiosity's sake, but I couldn't really ask our company to do that just for fun. So all I know is that someone spread the word that, if you came and asked, they had a package, sort of prospectus, explaining what you'd be getting and what they thought it was worth.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a bad feeling that the current owners are going to feel that Lionel is worth more than any buyer would pay, and may end up riding it right down the drain. There will come a time in the decline where it simply won't be salable at any price, I hope they don't wait that long.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Lee Willis said:


> Any new buyer will be confident he can "turn in around" otherwise he will not be buying it. So it will be interesting to see who the buyer is, assuming current owners can find one, and who that buyer is will tell you alot about their plans, right away. One of the companies not interested is mine. We heard something about it being for sale, but building and selling model trains just isn't even remotely close to what we do. I was tempted to have our attorneys look into it just out of curiosity's sake, but I couldn't really ask our company to do that just for fun. So all I know is that someone spread the word that, if you came and asked, they had a package, sort of prospectus, explaining what you'd be getting and what they thought it was worth.


That doesn't surprise me. Nothing about their moves over the last couple of years says "we're in it for the long haul".

If it was me, the only thing I would be interested in is the brand name.

I am curious what their actual revenue is, and I would bet it's not as high as some may think.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Good, observable points made, even though speculative. And of course because it's a private company, we'll never know the numbers.

Lionel has had many owners over the years. However with declining sales and the O scale market shrinking, the company is becoming less attractive. Lionel's had a good run, 118 years. But no company lasts forever.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Geez. You guys are scaring me. Now I am shopping for a legacy base as a backup.


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## Guest (May 11, 2018)

You don't need to pack your parachute yet, Forrest.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

TexasSP said:


> That doesn't surprise me. Nothing about their moves over the last couple of years says "we're in it for the long haul".
> 
> If it was me, the only thing I would be interested in is the brand name.
> 
> I am curious what their actual revenue is, and I would bet it's not as high as some may think.


I think the brand name and the tooling and the retail market contacts are all worth something. 

Privately held as Lionel is you have to go to ratings and other 'i industry observers" to get an estimate. From what I gather from a couple of those sources, Lionels revenues peaked at around $65 millon about 15 - 20 years ago and are now around $57 million. Profit margin is not know but estimated to be fairly good (30%+ gross margin). Customer good will and reputation are not on balance sheets so their quality problems and eroding market respect, etc., won't show up. They ought to find a buyer at around $50 million.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> You don't need to pack your parachute yet, Forrest.


Didn’t I see somewhere that the aren’t making them?


Lee, I think you should go for it!


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Fabforrest said:


> Lee, I think you should go for it!


Personally I don't have fifty million dollars, and I have enough headaches without adding all that Lionel, after the past five years oa management, would bring with it.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

Start a gofundme 

I would kick in $5


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'll add two cents.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

What you guys seem to be ignoring is the fact that the O scale market is shrinking. We 3-rail O scale old men are dying off. O scale is losing market share to HO and N, with no end in sight.

I had 2 LHS owners explain their sales over the past 3 years this way:

N scale sales: increasing
HO scale sales: stable, but still the largest market 
O scale sales: decreasing 

So, with Lionel's sales declining as Lee stated, and overseas production and quality control problems continuing, what could possibly lead sales to either stabilize or increase?

A new buyer would inherit these existing issues and who's to say they wouldn't continue or become even worse? Very risky for a new buyer, regardless of what we think the numbers are or could be.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> You don't need to pack your parachute yet, Forrest.


Might be a little early for us to worry just yet. But I wouldn't doubt that Lionel's execs are already planning to pack their parachutes. And the color of those parachutes ain't gonna be orange and blue -- it'll be gold... pure gold! 

David


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

I dunno Vern maybe if Lionel quit pissing off their consumers sales would be better. At this point I won't buy anything new from them, but I'll buy at train shows or older stuff from people like Gryzboski or Charles Ro.


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## M. Mitchell Marmel (May 11, 2018)

Well, Warren Buffett likes Lionels, and he likes buying railroads, so... ;-) 

Mitch


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

M. Mitchell Marmel said:


> Well, Warren Buffett likes Lionels, ...


Indeed... he seemed to be having a grand old time around his Trainworx BNSF layout last week, featuring several Lionel Legacy BNSF ES44's -- including the massive die-cast ones that sound like the real thing -- hauling intermodal husky stack and auto-carrier freight cars.  The layout makes an annual appearance at the Berkshire Hathoway shareholders meeting this time each year in Omaha (since about 2012 if I recall correctly). 

David


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

I also offered the speculation that LIONEL might be packaging the company for sale back when they made the ERR announcement.

1. Mike Regan leaves LIONEL - (trim down highest paid personnel)
2. Sell assets - i.e. the Archive - probably worth about as much as it will ever be now - and probably a PITA to the bottom line and looks better as capital.
3 Consolidation of business (ERR)
4 Current staff seems thin - jack of all trades - Dave is doing marketing promo videos...and repairs?

Those 4 signs tell me - this company is for sale.

They want it to look lean and as profitable as possible.

I also agree with Lee back on page 1 - he might have been joking - but I would not be surprised to hear "Menard's buys Lionel"

Menard's has the off-shoring capabilities to do things right - and the customer service to back it up.

With their recent sponsorship of a big model train event - they appear to be getting MORE involved in the hobby.

And - last point - I disagree about O gauge loosing popularity/sales. At precisely the same time - Menards has made a successful foray into the biz. And there seem to be more O gauge players than ever. The market might be changing - but I don't think it's thinning the way some believe.

The fact is - the hobby exists outside the bounds of commercial products...the secondary market is always there - and sort of a ghost competitor in the market. Lionel and MTH etc are competing against their own products in the used/secondary market.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

I could also see a scenario where Vision Line is broken away from the core Lionel business and launched as its own brand. And the core Lionel goes to someone like Menard's. (I could see them not being interested in the VL part)

But would someone like Bachman be interested in the Vision Line part?

We already have the odd relationship that produces Lionel Tinplate...by MTH.

How about "Vision Line by Bachman?"


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Lee Willis said:


> I think the brand name and the tooling and the retail market contacts are all worth something.
> 
> Privately held as Lionel is you have to go to ratings and other 'i industry observers" to get an estimate. From what I gather from a couple of those sources, Lionels revenues peaked at around $65 millon about 15 - 20 years ago and are now around $57 million. Profit margin is not know but estimated to be fairly good (30%+ gross margin). Customer good will and reputation are not on balance sheets so their quality problems and eroding market respect, etc., won't show up. They ought to find a buyer at around $50 million.


This is about where I would guess as well.

As for imminent doom, I certainly don't see it that way. Lionel is obviously having some issues, but nothing so dire that it can't be turned around. I also don't see the market shrinking, just changing.

I already put forth my scenario if Bachmann buys, and them integrating Williams with the traditional side.

Another scenario would be MTH trying to buy, doubt Mike has the cash position on his own but who knows what his relationship with banks and/or potential investors are and if he would want to be leveraged and controlled that much. I am sure it would be highly dependent on how he could structure the deal.

Menard's could be a good fit, and I could see it going a similar track as how I proposed if Bachmann were to purchase.

I can't see the Warren Buffet thing, although he has the majority stake in BNSF and likes his display, nothing else I have seen indicates he has a large interest in model trains. I actually can't see the guy forking out the cash for his own layout, he's pretty frugal. Even extremely wealthy individuals can being really frugal, after all, it's part of what helped get them there. 

If it was me I would split the business into Lionel Traditional and Lionel Scale. 

1. I would partner with others and use BlueRail with sounds for the Traditional Side and not worry about them having Legacy compatibility. 

2. I would then release the Legacy protocols publicly. I would work with the DCC manufacturers (ESU or MRC most likely) to have a system which can run Legacy through their systems. I would then get out of the decoder and control systems market. All new items would be DCC. I know there are some issues here, but i believe these could be worked out.

3. I would then partner with someone like Scott Mann for the high end Scale items, and use existing tooling for the mid range scale items. So think Lionel by 3rd Rail type branding and Lionel Scale for the mid range. Another idea here would be going after a purchase Atlas O.

4. I would explore how to expand and increase reliability of the lower end starter market and look at expanding it with more engaging and modern offerings. I don't think the gimmick type sets really sell well as you always see them on blow outs. The Polar Express is obviously a good example of market worth expanding though.

5. I would constantly explore other beneficial partnerships with other MFG's. I think there is some potential here with Licensing and Joint Ventures if done correctly.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Lee Willis said:


> My own dream, probably not tethered to reality, is the Menards buys Lionel.
> 
> I know several private equity managers like these, uh . . . gentlemen running Lionel. They refer to the sale of the company they own and are selling as "the liquidity moment." These guys have a challenge because in the last twelve years Lionel's revenues, near as one can figure out from various sources, has decreased about .7% per year. That doesn't mean their profit margin has not improved, but no one gets really enthusiastic about a company with decreased sales.
> 
> I wish Lionel would get it over with though.


I really hope they don't buy lionel. I have written Menards off as I don't like who they choose to be represented in their models.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> I really hope they don't buy lionel. I have written Menards off as I don't like who they choose to be represented in their models.


You got my attention, exactly what do they do that offends you?


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## Booly15 (Aug 16, 2017)

Buy low, sell high, if ever there was a time for a Menards or one like it to come in..........


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Menards? They chose to model companies who support groups that marched all over NYC a few years ago chanting "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now." That alone takes my money away from their business.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

*I really hope they don't buy lionel. I have written Menards off as I don't like who they choose to be represented in their models.*

Don't quite understand your concerns, please elaborate.

Bill


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## Guest (May 12, 2018)

I don't think that anything that Lionel does fits the Menard's business model. You can cross this option off your list. They have a niche market they have cut out in O-Gauge and why pay for something that does not fit into that niche.


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## Booly15 (Aug 16, 2017)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> Menards? They chose to model companies who support groups that marched all over NYC a few years ago chanting "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now." That alone takes my money away from their business.


News to me, and surprised with all their military trains. Sad if true.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Booly15 said:


> News to me, and surprised with all their military trains. Sad if true.


Don't think it was quite the grand conspiracy. They chose to model businesses who agreed to a license deal they could accept and would fit with their general themes.


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## Guest (May 12, 2018)

*"Another scenario would be MTH trying to buy, doubt Mike has the cash position on his own but who knows what his relationship with banks and/or potential investors are and if he would want to be leveraged and controlled that much. I am sure it would be highly dependent on how he could structure the deal."*

Texas SP has an interesting option. Whether you like Mike Wolf or not, he is a train guy through and through. Let's go back a little when he worked as a consultant to Lionel in the early nineties. He did good work for them for a few years and there was a falling out with the then owner Richard Kuhn. His rise in our hobby was put on an accelerated track. Lionel in my opinion spawned a huge challenger (track, challenger, I am trying to use RR terms ). 

I think Mike has always had a passion for the Lionel name.Think about the Tinplate deal that gave MTH use of the Lionel name. I bet he would jump at the chance to take them over at the right price. *This in my opinion would be the big prize to cap off his career in the model railroading industry.*

Putting the dollars together to buy them, not a problem I would guess, again at the right price.

The aftermath of such a deal, at this point in time, maybe not all bad for our hobby. I am a big Lionel fan and now have zero MTH equipment in our inventory. But the past several catalogs have left me cold. Add to this a big PR problem for Lionel lately. I see the the Legacy control system as the biggest issue if Mike were to take over Lionel. The problem would be for Mike that the Legacy system (in my opinion) is superior to DCS. But how good would it be if Legacy with ongoing support to improve it would be universal throughout O-Gauge and all of the new equipment was compatible with Legacy. Ardent DCS fans might not like this, but as long as this product was supported, the future in this case is more important. If the control system option went the other way, the tail would be wagging the dog. 

Many may disagree with my take as this is just my thinking if MW were to buy Lionel. But, I have examined this option from some experience with takeovers/mergers.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

TexasSP said:


> Don't think it was quite the grand conspiracy. They chose to model businesses who agreed to a license deal they could accept and would fit with their general themes.


But those businesses contribute millions to organizations that advocate murdering police officers and I will not support them. So if Menards buys Lionel I would not be happy.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> But those businesses contribute millions to organizations that advocate murdering police officers and I will not support them. So if Menards buys Lionel I would not be happy.



I don't want to kill this thread with political content but here is the story of John Menard. Seems highly unlikely he would contribute to those groups. Fake News? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Menard_Jr.

Pete


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes, I am wrong. Fake news. Pepsi and Starbucks are not modeled by Menards at all. So if Menards buys Lionel I will be the happiest person in the world. Are you happy now?


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Another thread that's become amusing, including posters' speculative views about the demise of Lionel, along with mine. 

It'll be interesting now to see what Lionel really does or what happens to it.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> Yes, I am wrong. Fake news. Pepsi and Starbucks are not modeled by Menards at all. So if Menards buys Lionel I will be the happiest person in the world. Are you happy now?


Hasn't LIONEL modeled PEPSI as well?

See - there ya go - no place to turn!

Time for a new hobby!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Roving Sign said:


> Hasn't LIONEL modeled PEPSI as well?
> 
> See - there ya go - no place to turn!
> 
> Time for a new hobby!


Many times as had K-Line, MTH, LGB? Who knows how many more train manufacturers?

Pete


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Norton said:


> Many times as had K-Line, MTH, LGB? Who knows how many more train manufacturers?
> 
> Pete


Ironically - he'll have to look for a more "politically correct" manufacturer...


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

For fear of this thread either being locked or disappearing altogether, can we please stop the political discoursing and return to this thread's original discussion?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Cease with the politics please!


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

ogaugeguy said:


> For fear of this thread either being locked or disappearing altogether, can we please stop the political discoursing and return to this thread's original discussion?


I'm done. No need to worry. I will stay with my threads and no longer reply to any other threads. But GRJ asked and I replied with the facts.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"Another scenario would be MTH trying to buy, doubt Mike has the cash position on his own but who knows what his relationship with banks and/or potential investors are and if he would want to be leveraged and controlled that much. I am sure it would be highly dependent on how he could structure the deal."*
> 
> Texas SP has an interesting option. Whether you like Mike Wolf or not, he is a train guy through and through. Let's go back a little when he worked as a consultant to Lionel in the early nineties. He did good work for them for a few years and there was a falling out with the then owner Richard Kuhn. His rise in our hobby was put on an accelerated track. Lionel in my opinion spawned a huge challenger (track, challenger, I am trying to use RR terms ).
> 
> ...


I think this would be the best option for everyone. Mike could really streamline and integrate the two probably as good as anyone. 

Like you said, at least you know Mike is a train guy and loves O Gauge and Lionel.


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## DJones (Oct 19, 2015)

My two cents:

I have heard that Lionel is dead or dying since I was 23 years old. I am almost 72 now and enjoying some of the finest Lionel toys that were totally unimagined to me in my earlier years!

I personally feel disgusted by the vitriol spewed by many on this forum (and the other one too) toward a TOY COMPANY! They make toys, not life threatening equipment or medicines. I know many here have worked at high end companies but having spent most of my career in consumer goods (B&D, Hamilton Beach), I can tell you the mark ups you imagine to add multiple layers of Quality Assurance to make "perfect products" is not doable. A certain level of mistakes are going to get through. Thats where service comes in. I guess I live a charmed life because Lionel has always made the product I purchased right, or had the dealer refund my money.

As for Lionel being purchased by Menard's, let us pray not! I have purchased their buildings and some rolling stock and will not but anymore of their rolling stock. While it may looks good from a distance, upon closer inspection, the way it looks, tracks and wobbles down the track is totally unacceptable. There building seem to be a good value but one by one I am having to redo the lighting in each of them. There is room for Menards and I feel sure they are taking low end business for Lionel. That is good competition!

Speaking of good competition, we are experiencing the best time to enjoy O gauge trains in the history of the world right now thanks in no small part to the existence of two fantastic toy train companies. If we loose either MTH or Lionel, once again the survivor will save money reissuing the same old product because it is the only game it town and innovation will dry up. Show me any industry were lack of competition has let to better products!

Everyone her is always talking about ways to grow the hobby but if a potential O gauge enthusiast happens onto a forum such as this or OGR, they would most likely be scared away by all the negativity! Want to grow the hobby, start by displaying how much you are enjoying the hobby.


Come on guys lets keep the fun in model railroading!

Don


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

All of the previous discussion seems to be sincere and informative.
Thanks to all.


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

M. Mitchell Marmel said:


> Well, Warren Buffett likes Lionels, and he likes buying railroads, so... ;-)
> 
> Mitch


That would be a WIN/WIN.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

M. Mitchell Marmel said:


> Well, Warren Buffett likes Lionels, and he likes buying railroads, so... ;-)
> 
> Mitch


A few months Warren Buffet did an hour long interview on one of the news programs(??). In it he was asked what attracts him to buy a company and he said he looks for strong capable managment that is leading that company in the right direction as well as the financials. Unlike many takeover artists he is not interested in making leadership changes. 
I don't see Lionel as meeting that criteria.

Pete


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

rogruth said:


> All of the previous discussion seems to be sincere and informative.
> Thanks to all.


Agreed. We're all adults, and with a minor few exceptions, I think everything was good and stayed on course.  :thumbsup:



Norton said:


> A few months Warren Buffet did an hour long interview on one of the news programs(??). In it he was asked what attracts him to buy a company and he said he looks for strong capable managment that is leading that company in the right direction as well as the financials. Unlike many takeover artists he is not interested in making leadership changes.
> I don't see Lionel as meeting that criteria.
> 
> Pete


Bingo! Nothing about this screams WB for me, I have read many articles on him and interviews as he's a curious individual. Just because something entertains someone doesn't mean they're interested in the business end of it.


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## Guest (May 13, 2018)

The posts to this thread have been *civil and open*. This is a strength of the MTF as we are allowed to express our opinions in a gentlemanly fashion.

Most of us don't want to see a demise of Lionel. But ignoring what is currently going on would be a classic example of the ostrich principle. That may be the word of the day elsewhere, but not here, thank goodness.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't think Lionel would be a desirable company to purchase by an outsider. Both Bachmann and MTH could be a player since they are already in the business of electric trains. Bachmann's parent company Kader Industries certainly could purchase Lionel without financial assistance, MTH probably would need help.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess it had to happen, the thread "over there" about the TMCC upgrade status was closed, must be too much bad press for a sponsor.


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## Guest (May 13, 2018)

*"I guess it had to happen, the thread "over there" about the TMCC upgrade status was closed, must be too much bad press for a sponsor."*

This sure reinforces my point, John. Takes pay to play to a whole new interpretation.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes, can't say anything bad about those advertisers products, even if it's true and useful to members.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I guess it had to happen, the thread "over there" about the TMCC upgrade status was closed, must be too much bad press for a sponsor.


Interesting... the last post in the thread indicates, "topic closed per request". Any bets who made the request? 

In case anybody is wondering, I'm SO glad I spoke my piece and stood my ground over there earlier this year. Wasn't something I started the day looking to do. But I'm sure glad I did, and I think lots of folks are beginning to see why.

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, Lionel clearly wants the whole thing to go away, best way to do that is shut down any discussion of the issue. I'd like to keep the pressure on and hopefully influence them to revive the product line. With discussion shut down whenever it's mentioned, that's not likely to happen.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts:

*I hope to God that Lionel can continue on and even improve. Without competition any industry and hobby suffers. Look at all the great stuff that was made when Lionel, MTH, Williams, K-Line, Atlas O and 3Rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot were churning out trains at such an alarming rate. A lot of us bought more trains than we can use, but we'll try anyway. I miss those days of three or four catalogs a year! What great choices we had just a few years ago!

*Forget about Menard's buying/acquiring Lionel. They are a big box home improvement store that found a way to use some old freight car tooling to fill a department in their stores. They don't even stock the store with trains except at Christmas time. And they haven't, and said they wouldn't, enter the locomotive market. Can you imagine them producing their first locomotive, either themselves or from a Lionel purchase, and it has problems right out of the box? More torches and pitchforks from the masses. I think they do much better with their buildings than they do with trains.

*It's been known that Mike Wolf has had his eye on Lionel for years. I don't know what his passion for acquiring Lionel is at this point. But *IF* he did I doubt he would phase out DCS. DCS is his baby. If he had Lionel's assets/information, etc,. he would have access to the Legacy coding and probably integrate it into DCS. There would be our single command system. I own and operate both systems and I think they are both easy and fun to operate. And forget about a hand held remote, everything is going to smartphones and other digital devices for WiFi connectivity. Since you don't need an internet connection to operate the trains, you can get much cheaper devices than a smartphone. I'm sure Bluetooth may be the immediate future, but how long before we can attach a chip to our foreheads and just _think_ what we want our trains to do!

*Warren Buffet?! I'm not a business guru, but I believe that even though he may like trains, he buys stock in ventures that will make him money. He keeps the emotion out of it.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Traindiesel said:


> Some sudden thoughts and second thoughts:
> *Forget about Menard's buying/acquiring Lionel. They are a big box home improvement store that found a way to use some old freight car tooling to fill a department in their stores. They don't even stock the store with trains except at Christmas time. And they haven't, and said they wouldn't, enter the locomotive market. Can you imagine them producing their first locomotive, either themselves or from a Lionel purchase, and it has problems right out of the box? More torches and pitchforks from the masses. I think they do much better with their buildings than they do with trains.


The whole idea is Menards has better overseas oversight - and they wouldn't have the kind of QC problems Lionel does. And they have a far more streamlined, no hassle, support system. I also speculated - it might be better for Lionel to break off the Vision Line as a separate brand - That's the part that I don't think Menard's would want to get into.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Everything is for sale at the right price.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Roving Sign said:


> The whole idea is Menards has better overseas oversight - and they wouldn't have the kind of QC problems Lionel does. And they have a far more streamlined, no hassle, support system. I also speculated - it might be better for Lionel to break off the Vision Line as a separate brand - That's the part that I don't think Menard's would want to get into.


I brought up the Menards idea more as a hope than a viable option, but I will push back on a few comments here, and suuport what Roving Sign has said in a small way. Clearly, from my discussions and e-mails with people there, the type of products and creativity they show, _someone there really likes toy trains. _ That in itself is such a contrast to the present owners of Lionel that it would make a difference in any new owner.

You can say that Menards people aren't committed as a business to toy trains, but I disagree. They strike me as really loving them but keeping a keen business eye on their commitment so that they don't make money. Personally I think they are doing well there. 

The person at Menards who loves toy trains is, I have been told, Mr. Menard himself, whose dog, Jack, we see everywhere in those models. He would be the ideal person to buy Lionel. He loves trains but is a good businessman, with considerable leverage over his suppliers and all the critical mass he needs. 

It would work, too. I think someone like Menards could turn Lionel around. It might not be the Lionel I would most want myself, probably more focus on basics and less on high end locos, but it would be there, be profitable, and be run by people who care about the hobby. I think that is the best we can ask for.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

All Mr Menard would have to do to keep the high end support is hire a few top flight engineers much like Jerry Calabrese did when he took on Jon Z (design) and Mike Reagan for service. There are more than a few that post on these forums well schooled in the latest technologies. Many still there are capable as well.

I don't know who designed the latest Lionel Vision Niagara but thats one the most impressive pieces of engineering yet to come from Lionel. The Acela was not too shabby but plagued with problems after the fact.

Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm going to pass on the Niagara although it looks appealing. For one thing I have a big scale Niagara - actually cant' remember if its Legacy or Premier, for another I worry about the five smoke generators and all the fancy stuff. Lot to go wrong (or never be right from the factory) and any more, it always seems to.


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## Guest (May 14, 2018)

The Niagara, just another offering that does not fit our "*vision*".


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Not trying to convince anyone to buy one. I have 6 already and was disappointed when Lionel announced this engine,
If this was Jon Z's swan song then we might not see anything close in the future. If this was a collaboration of Dave and whoever is left of the tech crew then it bodes well for the future.

Pete


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

The Niagara will have the best features, and the best sounds ever but it won't match the detail my 3rdrail Niagara has.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I have one Niagara, sure don't need another.

Bill


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Norton said:


> All Mr Menard would have to do to keep the high end support is hire a few top flight engineers . . .
> Pete


They don't use flight engineers anymore, Pete. More automated cockpits nowadays have rendered them obsolete, requiring only a pilot and copilot.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

superwarp1 said:


> The Niagara will have the best features, and the best sounds ever but it won't match the detail my 3rdrail Niagara has.


I suspect you are right but we'll see. The 3rd Rail Niagara was one of Scott's poorest efforts. If that detail hasn't started falling off I suspect it doesn't get handled much.

This is one I had to rebuild.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=71210

Another arrived mint in the box with about 10 pieces broken and screws rattling around. 
Then there are the TAS SAW boards.

Pete


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Unless they made one a Lionmaster, it's too big for my curve diameters.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> I suspect you are right but we'll see. The 3rd Rail Niagara was one of Scott's poorest efforts. If that detail hasn't started falling off I suspect it doesn't get handled much.
> 
> This is one I had to rebuild.
> 
> ...


No issues here with the details other than the skid plate needing to be resoldered. First thing to go was the TAS SAW board and in goes EOB. One of my best running engines.

But with that said you must of gotten one built on a weekendhwell:


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Great video Gary. MTH always were the best smokers.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Gary, is that the smoke unit that came with the engine? I have enough EOB boards to convert my three 3rd Rail Niagaras but since got side tracked on other projects. With two MTH and the Lionel CC Niagara hopped up with new gears, driveshaft, and GRJs magic I have not felt the urgency to convert.
Given the price of the new Vision Niagara I now have a reason to put some time in these 3rd Rail engines.
This is an area where DCC would be so much better as you can easily add functionality as you wish to your handheld.
Adding smoke units is not the hard part but being able to trigger them independently is.

Pete


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

M. Mitchell Marmel said:


> Well, Warren Buffett likes Lionels, and he likes buying railroads, so... ;-)
> 
> Mitch


You are forgetting, WB is no fool. He is all about making $$$. Lionel is circling the drain and the appeal is slipping with each passing day.

They should have sold yesterday.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Norton said:


> Gary, is that the smoke unit that came with the engine? I have enough EOB boards to convert my three 3rd Rail Niagaras but since got side tracked on other projects. With two MTH and the Lionel CC Niagara hopped up with new gears, driveshaft, and GRJs magic I have not felt the urgency to convert.
> Given the price of the new Vision Niagara I now have a reason to put some time in these 3rd Rail engines.
> This is an area where DCC would be so much better as you can easily add functionality as you wish to your handheld.
> Adding smoke units is not the hard part but being able to trigger them independently is.
> ...


For the likes of me I can't remember what smoke unit it is. Since this is a early 2000's engine, and EOB was new at the time(before MTH threaten to sue TAS over copyright stuff). The chuffing is run off the EOB (Later EOB's after the MTH lawsuit threat, didn't come with this feature enabled in the firmware). Might be a turbo smoke unit. What came with the engine originally?:dunno:


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

It comes with a fan smoke unit. I assume driven off micro switches.
My EOB boards were removed from factory engines so probably don't have the working variable chuff driver. I think only the kits retained the chuff driver. EOB Drop Ins have the chuff driver built in.

Pete


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