# What's Lionel's Future??????????



## Guest (Mar 2, 2017)

For starters, I have been a loyal Lionel customer ever since receiving my first O-Gauge train set 70 years ago. It would be fair to say that we have a long-term relationship. Yesterday I received from Charles Ro (thank you) the recently released catalogs from Lionel. When they were first released on-line, I went through the Signature catalog a couple of times. It struck me that it was very light compared to previous years. My guess it is about 1/3 smaller. I spent some time yesterday going through the hard copy and came to the same conclusion. In my opinion, there was a lack of new tooling, much less compared to banner years of the recent past. Combine this with the recent departure of Mike Reagan, it gave me pause as to just what is going on at Lionel.

My work background tells me that when your sales are primarily dependent upon your catalog offerings, a big, strong catalog with many new offerings usually translates into a healthy company that has an intent towards growth. Conversely, when a firm’s catalog is less robust than previous catalog offerings, outsiders can translate this into another quite different picture.

I get calls and e-mails on a regular basis concerning the future of Lionel. The central theme has been about their future direction.

So, what have our members heard and what direction do you think will be the future of Lionel. This should be a lively discussion and I bet though Lionel apparently does not want to contribute here (*is available to them without fee*), someone at Lionel will probably read this thread or it’s content will be reported to them.


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## Togatown (Nov 29, 2013)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> For starters, I have been a loyal Lionel customer ever since receiving my first O-Gauge train set 70 years ago. It would be fair to say that we have a long-term relationship. Yesterday I received from Charles Ro (thank you) the recently released catalogs from Lionel. When they were first released on-line, I went through the Signature catalog a couple of times. It struck me that it was very light compared to previous years. My guess it is about 1/3 smaller. I spent some time yesterday going through the hard copy and came to the same conclusion. In my opinion, there was a lack of new tooling, much less compared to banner years of the recent past. Combine this with the recent departure of Mike Reagan, it gave me pause as to just what is going on at Lionel.
> 
> My work background tells me that when your sales are primarily dependent upon your catalog offerings, a big, strong catalog with many new offerings usually translates into a healthy company that has an intent towards growth. Conversely, when a firm’s catalog is less robust than previous catalog offerings, outsiders can translate this into another quite different picture.
> 
> ...


If you ask me what I think the future is for Lionel, I'd present one that may be bleak, for not only Lionel, but the rest of the model train industry as well. 
I'd love to know what their 5/10/20 year plan is, because once all of us baby boomers and beyond die off, they're going to have to appeal in large part, to a generation that has grown up on realistic First Person Shooter games and Madden Sports. A real hands on hobby, like model trains, that wants to survive in the future, had better be able to get their attention and hold it. Just my 2 cents worth....


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

Looking through the catalog, I agree, things look "bleak". When there's little to nothing, and at the prices asked for, there's nothing I need. I'm sure many feel the same. My empire will keep running as it has. In past I would sell/trade something to acquire a need/want. In future Menards rolling stock will fill the gaps.
From past experience watching factories, stores, and businesses close, they cut inventory and operated at bare bones to hopefully entice a buyer, many times not. 
I was hopeful their LionChief products would entice newcomers, and it did, as did Polar Expres. But the prices going upwards is killing newcomers and parents who would possible have considered a train set, either for the kids, or as a Christmas tree decoration from memories of how it was. Prices, (I know, many can afford whatever is coming out), but many can't and its hurting the hobby and manufacturers. Also the quality of new products, especially engines, isn't helping either with their out of box problems. Menards maybe the savior.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

My opinion, for what its worth...

By the year 2024 (just 7 years away) Lionel's *name* will still be in tact. It will have been purchased (for .30 on the dollar) and will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Menards.

In addition, Mike Reagan will be the newly appointed President and CEO. 

Fast forward to 2034. After 10 years with Mike at the helm Menards will sell-off "Lionel" for 3X their purchase price. Mike will retire and 5 years later Lionel will file for chapter 11.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I think Guggenheim Capitol Management is keeping the purse strings pretty tight on Lionel. I don't believe they are happy with the bottom line over the past couple years and may be looking at removing Lionel from their portfolio. 

The last two owners of Lionel have been capitol management firms, these type of owners are strictly looking at bottom line performance not the passion of electric train choo choos. I doubt that there is another Richard Kughn wanting to roll the dice and bankroll Lionel.

Bill


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2017)

*"I think Guggenheim Capitol Management is keeping the purse strings pretty tight on Lionel. I don't believe they are happy with the bottom line over the past couple years and may be looking at removing Lionel from their portfolio."*

Bill, one word describes your comments, *Bingo!* I received a call yesterday from a typically reliable source that repeated essentially what you posted. The purse string comment you mentioned just went further.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Maybe we're in another 'cycle'. Remember back
in 'those' days when slot cars took all of the
excitement. That was when things started downhill
for all model trains. But over the years there seems
to have been some advancement.

We can hope so anyway.

Don


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Togatown said:


> If you ask me what I think the future is for Lionel, I'd present one that may be bleak, for not only Lionel, but the rest of the model train industry as well.
> I'd love to know what their 5/10/20 year plan is, because once all of us baby boomers and beyond die off, they're going to have to appeal in large part, to a generation that has grown up on realistic First Person Shooter games and Madden Sports. A real hands on hobby, like model trains, that wants to survive in the future, had better be able to get their attention and hold it. Just my 2 cents worth....


I also believe the above comment, the younger follks have more to worry about nowadays such as debt in credit cards, school debt, housing , marriage,kids etc.
Them thinking about model trains i dont see it happening .

Once our generation dwindles so will the hobby of model trains in my opinion.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I don't see any creativity at Lionel. Some of their products are smartly designed, with glimmers an occasional spark of real smart design (the LC+ Universal controller). But the catalogs and the present website (sucks by the way) and every move they make seem to be that of a company managed by the numbers, for the numbers. As Bob Lutz said about car companies, "Somebody there has to love cars or they just can't be good at making cars." Same with toy trains.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

Hate to say it, but I agree with you all. The new generations have less to draw them to toy or model trains because there are so many alternatives for their attention. Plus, the importance of railroading in general is on the decline - there is very little interest with real life railroading except for dramatic YouTube videos of crossing accidents and train wrecks.

It is a dying hobby. It will probably erode to some quite small base state and remain there for 20 or 30 years hence when some future hipsters rediscover model railroading items in antique shops as quaint relics of the past.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2017)

*"Bob Lutz"*

Very good comparison, Lee. Bob was a true and true car guy. I met him back in the early days of the Viper. That project would not have happened without him.

Lionel needs a Bob Lutz to run their show.


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

_Could they be leaning towards a low volume hi profit scenario ? 
It has to be tough coming up with a great new and exciting piece every catalog.
So I kind of expect to see repeats of a lot of things. 
Who knows, maybe someday they will back in a small shop in NJ....
But what a ride it was......
_


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

SantaFeJim said:


> My opinion, for what its worth...
> 
> By the year 2024 (just 7 years away) Lionel's *name* will still be in tact. It will have been purchased (for .30 on the dollar) and will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Menards.


Reminds me of the commercials hocking cheap crap under the name "Bell and Howell".


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Opened my catalog from Charles Ro this AM. I see that Legacy's claim to excitement is "whistle steam." After a steam GG1, this is improvement.

Lion chief and Legacy are pitted against each other; take fewer options, save $150. Rolling stock is interesting and must be really good since some things are shown twice. Prices thru the roof.

For the most part, we appear to be tired old men who usually have far more than we need, can take it or leave it, and for whom "excitement" is not the same as it once was. Maybe Lionel has a healthy dose of the same thing along with financial requirements that are a noose around the neck.

But, Saturday the Great American Train Show will be in Hampton. If it is like past years, the crowd will be large and people will be spending $$$. We are interested to see how Lionel, MTH, and o-scale will be represented. There was no lack of excitement, children and their parents the last time we were there

Lionel may succeed or they may fall on their collective faces. The jury remains out. But the Lionel that we knew, just like the Planters Peanuts that used to support Suffolk, Virginia, are not likely to regain their past glory when controlled by the big money corporations that demand performance above all else.

Bob Lutz is how old now?


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## kstrains (Sep 19, 2015)

I would not be surprised if Lionel had planned a larger catalog for 2017 but then cut down the number of offerings due to lack of sales last year. I believe the catalog for 2017 is probably what future catalogs will offer with fewer scale offerings and more entry level offerings. I doubt there will be much new tooling in future catalogs. MTH has offered very little new tooling in the past years and has continued to reproduced the same items that have successfully sold in the past such as Gevo Evolution and similar diesels with flashing lights. For us in the Hobby, the same stuff in the catalog is not appealing but for MTH it seems like it is produces sales for them. Lionel may have to resort to the same in the future in offering repeated items that have done well in the past and a smaller selection.


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

Every Christmas season I search Youtube for Christmas train layouts and ask only for results from the past month. And it's incredible to me just how many layouts people do put out. Department 56 may not sell as much as they used to, but that's because Lemax and other less expensive offerings have taken the slack. My point is that it's heartening to see a continued focus on trains during Christmas and it's as good sign for the future.

Many young people like old things. Record players, typewriters, even Polaroid cameras are very popular. I also hear a lot how younger people say they like trains. Like riding them. This is the generation not into cars like we all once were. They ride light rail and subways in the city and on trips to Europe, ride the trains. I think many of them have caught the romance of trains. All good.

One of the problems I see is that all of the scales compete against each other. Because of cost and space, I see a lot of young people going to the smaller scales. That's been true for a while, but I see it more pronounced now. All of us can attest to the cost O gauge is and how much space they take up. Younger people don't want the clutter like we do. So I think one of the concerns is that the younger people who do get into trains may seek out the smaller scales.

I think what can help O gauge in particular is new franchises such as Polar Express down the road. 

In the end, I think we all know how this ends. It will contract. Trains just aren't a dominant presence to people today. People can't get enthralled with them when they never see them. If high-speed trains ever takeoff here, maybe there will be some renewed interest. Outside of that, I'm afraid the only remaining interest will be nostalgic in nature -- particularly around Christmas time.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

SantaFeJim said:


> My opinion, for what its worth...
> 
> By the year 2024 (just 7 years away) Lionel's *name* will still be in tact. It will have been purchased (for .30 on the dollar) and will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Menards.
> 
> ...


I love this post Jim. :appl::appl:


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

It's really hard to say right now. Certainly they are the leader in model trains, but the latest catalog gave me pause. I think the new tooling comments are kinda funny considering that most of the locos produced are long dead and gone. Why retool for those shells? That would be foolish. Most of the innovation has been on the user experience side… electronics, steam effects, sound, and accessory activation. Areas for Vision Line growth would be Legacy controlled operating accessories and cars. LC and LC+ growth is going to revolve around increased signal range (kids haven't noticed this limitation yet) and more set options such as LC switches and accessories. I'm not so sure the Bluetooth integration was a wise move as this protocol is aging out fast and the range is dubious at best.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

It doesn't matter. When The Martians attack we'll all be destroyed anyway!

*Sell all your trains now!!!*

Unless they remake the Amtrak Acela, then all will be fine.


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Nikola said:


> Hate to say it, but I agree with you all. The new generations have less to draw them to toy or model trains because there are so many alternatives for their attention. Plus, the importance of railroading in general is on the decline - there is very little interest with real life railroading except for dramatic YouTube videos of crossing accidents and train wrecks.
> 
> It is a dying hobby. It will probably erode to some quite small base state and remain there for 20 or 30 years hence when some future hipsters rediscover model railroading items in antique shops as quaint relics of the past.


Only catch is will they be willing to buy those rediscovered trains to be used primarily as static shelf queens? Do any of us think it's realistic to believe that today's train's with their electronic innards will still be functioning in 20 or 30 years?


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

Also, what's the story with the LionChief Plus line? What's the mindset and rational of Lionel executives making some of the LionChief Plus engines in their newest catalog BTO (built to order)?


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I think as the generation that grew up on trains gets smaller, the hobby will get smaller. There is a lot of good things in this hobby but one of the big ones is nostalgia. The younger generation just doesn't have the fascination with trains that we have. There will be some who like the history of trains that will join the hobby but the number of serious model train enthusiasts will continue to get smaller. 

An additional impact is the large amount of product that has already been produced. The majority of my recent purchases are from the used market. There is so much variety out there that almost anything I want will come up on the used market and the used market is offering quality trains at much less cost than a new item will cost. A large technological leap, like the introduction of command operation was, may cause people to buy new trains again. Steam whistle, Vision Line and Lion Chief is an attempt at that but not enough to make a real difference. Used rolling stock is of limited value IMO due to high shipping costs pushing the cost of used rolling stock near MSRP. If Lionel's prices continue to climb that too will change.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

ogaugeguy said:


> Also, what's the story with the LionChief Plus line? What's the mindset and rational of Lionel executives making some of the LionChief Plus engines in their newest catalog BTO (built to order)?


When the purse strings are tightened you only manufacture what is ordered.

What has become evident with the onslaught from Menards Trains is that Lionel's traditional line is way, way, way overpriced. Lionel has been whistling to the bank for years with their super overpriced traditional line and now Menards Trains has upset the apple cart.

Bill


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Lionel's biggest challenge these days is fighting off the growing number of enthusiasts who've finally realized they have more trains than their great-grandchildren could enjoy. Just listen to posts on the online forums. Literally everyone is now saying the same thing.

Add to that the insane prices of newly imported items, and you have more folks experiencing the Harry Beale syndrome (from the movie Network in 1976). Yes... We're all mad as hell (about new prices), and we're not gonna take it anymore. 

Folks are re-discovering the super-saturated secondary train market everyday now, and they're just not willing to pay the price premiums associated with newly manufactured items anymore. They realize that all the overseas labor difficulties and challenges faced by the importers add ZERO to the value proposition for consumers. So why pay the premiums? For what?  So a bunch of guys and gals who can just as easily be selling widgets rather than toy trains can make a living sticking it to us? No thank you. The value just isn't there. 

I pre-ordered a few pieces of rolling stock from Lionel's 2017 catalogs... Very likely THE smallest pre-order list for me in 30+ years. That's saying something. 

David


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2017)

*"If you build it, they will come."*

OK, I am a baseball fan and love this comment. But it applies to O-Gauge trains as well. Look at the huge success of the recent Big Boy and the Cab Forward. They certainly were not cheap offerings by any measure, but they both sold very well. '

Maybe there is now a catch 22 situation. Perhaps they would like to introduce mind-blowing new product, but financial limitations have prevented this. The past three catalogs have been less than spectacular in my opinion and I think of myself as a typical Lionel buyer and took a pass. Again if I am typical, this had to have had an impact on their bottom line. When you are a wholly owned subsidiary of a parent company that demands a good financial performance from it's holdings, this typically would not be a good situation.* Bill's post makes this point very well. *

Unless there are some very dramatic changes, I don't see too many sunny days ahead. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to equate that lower sales do have a substantial impact.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Lionel's biggest challenge these days is fighting off the growing number of enthusiasts who've finally realized they have more trains than their great-grandchildren could enjoy. Just listen to posts on the online forums. Literally everyone is now saying the same thing.
> 
> Add to that the insane prices of newly imported items, and you have more folks experiencing the Harry Beale syndrome (from the movie Network in 1976). Yes... We're all mad as hell (about new prices), and we're not gonna take it anymore.
> 
> ...


I am pretty much in this group. The only thing that will get me interested is never before produced prototypes. No interest in added features to items produced in the past. Most of these features just add to the headaches. 

Pete


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm totally unqualified to make any intelligent remarks about the future of Lionel, having only been into model railroading for a little over six years and owning ZERO Lionel products. Also, I've only modeled HO scale and Lionel is primarily O scale.
However, during the past couple weeks while searching for some GT rolling stock, I came across some used Lionel HO scale on eBay which was priced VERY low compared to Athearn, Walthers, Bachmann, and other similar items. It's my understanding Lionel was into HO scale for a brief period and never became a major player in that scale. Is that true? 
Can anyone explain to me why used Lionel HO scale rolling stock is so cheap compared to others? Was the quality down? Poor selection? Price? :dunno:
Hope someone can offer some insight,
Bob


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I don't believe Lionel made HO back in the day. I think it was Bachmann in a Lionel box. The SP GS4 Daylight comes to mind. As such Bachmann was considered low end HO back then, maybe a step below Tyco and not as good as Athearn.

Pete


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

raleets said:


> Can anyone explain to me why used Lionel HO scale rolling stock is so cheap compared to others? Was the quality down? Poor selection? Price? :dunno:
> Hope someone can offer some insight,
> Bob


_*I will explain in in the most basic terms.*_

*It was then, is now and shall ever be.. CRAP.*


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2017)

ogaugeguy said:


> Also, what's the story with the LionChief Plus line? What's the mindset and rational of Lionel executives making some of the LionChief Plus engines in their newest catalog BTO (built to order)?


When Lionel came out with BTO a few years ago I knew they were not selling many high end locomotives. They had a lot of BTO offerings hoping to sell a fair number of these locos but apparently that didn't happen, thus the limited number of BTOs in the new catalogue. As to LC+, only the SD60 is BTO. I think this is a trial to see if there is interest in expanding LC+ into the scale-higher end line.

Businesses exist to make a profit so I won't criticize Lionel for doing that. I think the problem is as Bill pointed out, the management company only cares about profits and has no real interest in trains. I think Lionel was originally successful because J. L. Cowen wanted to make a profit but also loved trains. MTH, Menards and others seem to be successful for the same reason.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

I can't speak on the Lionel issues specifically since I have never been in the O Scale camp, but I can speak for the hobby itself.

There are many challenges facing this hobby for sure, in large part because of the potential complexity involved in the hobby as well.

The struggle with appealing to a young demographic is not only complicated due to competition with more instant-gratification industries like video gaming / digital mediums, but it's also the fact that the modeling savvy of a young generation is not refined enough yet to maximize the potential of what can make this hobby so gratifying.

I have always LOVED trains... inexplicably. Must have been something I was just born with. And as a young boy, I made a 8'x4' table for an HO layout. It was a basic oval track with one spur, and I did some cool scenery things with it. But at a young age my modeling skills were limited and eventually I got bored with watching my one train run around an oval. There is only so far you can go with this hobby as a young child with undeveloped modeling skills and no income.

IMO, this hobby depends and thrives on people who can afford to take it to the next level. That means you need to have the means as well. You need space and you need money. Kids have neither. It's good if you can get kids into buying the goods and using it at a young age, but the reality is there will be a gap of time in their lives as they grow older and get into High School and College, they are not doing anything in this industry anymore for a long while. Only as they get older will they be able to afford a house with some space and have enough money to invest, then they can / will once again get back into this hobby.

Personally, I don't know if Model Railroading is dying. But I do think this industry will die if it keeps ignoring an adaptation of the times. That's just business 101. Society evolves - if you don't adapt, you get left behind. Eventually you can't compete anymore and your company will die.

I know it's a silly little thing, but to harp on one example, I've seen a suggestion here on MTF about a "like button". It seems to be a 50/50 mix of who would like to see one and who hates the idea. From my own professional experience of working for a software company for 17 years, everything is about "User Experience". If users have a bad experience, that resonates and they will stop doing business with you. IMO, "Like buttons" are a modern user-experience trend that quite frankly isn't going away. Older generations may hate the concept, but failing to embrace and adapt means you are actively making a decision to freeze yourself in time.

That's what I see going on with a lot of manufacturers in model railroading. Websites with poor user experience, out of date inventories ("out of stock" labels on so many things), inability to have custom road names on rolling stock created without paying through the nose for it (3D printing and painting anyone??? Make it cheaper!), costly layout software products or having to rely on a rogue 3rd-party developer to give out a cheap free product (SCARM), not being able to find a ton of things on Amazon (Prime shipping is HUGE for people these days), I can go on an on...

The point is, this industry is too federated with silos and no common effort or force to advance adaptation of modern trends. If this industry dies, it will not be due to a lack of passion in the demographics, it will be due to the industry suppliers not adapting their business models to proliferate the hobby in this day and age.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

Overkast said:


> I can't speak on the Lionel issues specifically since I have never been in the O Scale camp, but I can speak for the hobby itself.
> 
> There are many challenges facing this hobby for sure, in large part because of the potential complexity involved in the hobby as well.
> 
> ...


::::: *LIKE*::::::


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

Overkast stated:
"I know it's a silly little thing, but to harp on one example, I've seen a suggestion here on MTF about a "like button". It seems to be a 50/50 mix of who would like to see one and who hates the idea. From my own professional experience of working for a software company for 17 years, everything is about "User Experience". If users have a bad experience, that resonates and they will stop doing business with you. IMO, "Like buttons" are a modern user-experience trend that quite frankly isn't going away. Older generations may hate the concept, but failing to embrace and adapt means you are actively making a decision to freeze yourself in time."

I agree. I also "like" your post and would indicate so if I could.

We were just discussing Lionel's LCS effort. The sensor track is a cool device, but may have fallen short at the finish line. A Lionel exec was asked about "How do you adapt it to track other than FastTrack?" The answer was "We don't, why would we want to do that?" My answer would be "I have a fortune invested in Atlas track, so you don't want me to invest in LCS?" The system has a lot of very interesting features, but is very expensive to use on a larger layout.

Another issue is why are they only supporting Apple products with their WIFI? Do they not want to do business with Android users? When I add the costs of buying a duplicate IPad and an Iphone so I can run Lionel trains only with it, why would I want to do that? If you are the market leader with products that are so much in demand that you can write your own ticket and not have any flexibility that is one thing, but that does not describe Lionel's current situation in my view.

In spite of these and other products, Lionel is still my favorite. What does that tell you about the status of the industry? Unless Lionel changes their ways and attitude, I don't give them 5 years at this rate. 

Art


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

If you think the choice is sparse in O gauge try S gauge!!! We would give most anything to have even one quarter of what is available in O.
Lionel does not make the sensor track in their S gauge FasTrack but they include the transmitters in the S Legacy engines. So I bought 3 O gauge sensor tracks, took out the electronics, mounted the sensors in the MTH S gauge flex track I used to build the layout, used a longer cable to mount the programming board under the edge of the layout and now have fully functional sensor operation with my LCS in S. A member named Rocco posted the instructions here about a year ago. The same thing could be done with Atlas O track.
I am currently using an old iPad 2 for the LCS. It was left over when I bought a new Pro for work, so basically free. However after buying 40 LCS devices, 42 interconnecting cables, some boosters, 2 ZW-L's, reverse loop controllers, occupied block detectors, and switch frog power relays the cost of a new iPad would be rounding error!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

If there was more equipment in S scale I would be in it. It's the perfect blend of detail and just slightly smaller than O-less space. 

I don't know about Lionel. Those who do aren't talking for obvious reasons.

The recent QC issues were a major factor in my decision to rethink this hobby. I just won't be buying any new releases-QC and reissues. 

I hope Lionel gets it together. It's for the better of the hobby if they continue with business.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've personally worked on putting the LCS Sensor Track into Atlas track on our club layout, it's actually very easy. Using the Midwest cork roadbed, it's a perfect match.

Cut away the plastic ties the length of the LCS track section, and an equal length of the cork roadbed. Remove all the Fastrack rails, lop off the locating plastic nubs, and slide the Sensor track under the Atlas rail. Once it's covered with ballast, it's hard to see it's there.

I stole this picture from the Internet, can't find the pictures of the tracks we did on the club layout. However, it appears they did exactly the same thing, just no ballast yet.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is a picture of one of mine after detailing and ballast. 









Here is the programming board that is now separately mounted under the layout edge.


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## Overkast (Jan 16, 2015)

Chugman said:


> I agree. I also "like" your post and would indicate so if I could.
> 
> We were just discussing Lionel's LCS effort. The sensor track is a cool device, but may have fallen short at the finish line. A Lionel exec was asked about "How do you adapt it to track other than FastTrack?" The answer was "We don't, why would we want to do that?" My answer would be "I have a fortune invested in Atlas track, so you don't want me to invest in LCS?" The system has a lot of very interesting features, but is very expensive to use on a larger layout.
> 
> Another issue is why are they only supporting Apple products with their WIFI? Do they not want to do business with Android users? When I add the costs of buying a duplicate IPad and an Iphone so I can run Lionel trains only with it, why would I want to do that? If you are the market leader with products that are so much in demand that you can write your own ticket and not have any flexibility that is one thing, but that does not describe Lionel's current situation in my view.


Thanks Art. And in regards to the Apple/Android situation, you have hit the nail on the head in terms of the crux of the matter to which I'm referring to. Apple and Lionel might have some sort of handshake/sweetheart deal on the back end, which is why Android is not in the picture (yet). This is a good deal for Apple, but no so much for Lionel, because Lionel is the one that has everything to lose in this situation. Why you ask? Because Apple may have pioneered the mobile device, but they are no longer the monopoly of them. According to the latest research (in 2016), Android is the world's most widely used smartphone operating system, holding 86.2% of the market, compared to 12.9% for iOS.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

This is just my opinion....

I like most of what Lionel has done but...

Bring back making all Lionel products in the good ol USA!!! Get themselves a cracked team of people to manufacture, test, research and development, have quality control and do everything like it use to be when toy trains were a passion. Do it under one roof. Pay those people that are employed by Lionel a fair wage with incentives to build the best products that they can. 

I know this dream won't happen because of cheap labor abroad, but at least if Lionel has a finger on what they can control here and now it might just work out for everyone?
If WEAVER has done it why can't Lionel?


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

I think Lionel and MTH have a lot smaller budget than many think. Our hobby is a cottage industry in comparison to Sony or IBM. 

Quite frankly, I am surprised both of them delivered the wifi app as well and as fast as they did. 

Why they chose IOS I am not sure, but I think to cover both IOS and Android may have cost more than they wanted to initially spend. They will probably come back and take care of Android later.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The numbers are a little off, but I don't understand the fact that Lionel ignores over 80% of the market! This quote was from MacRumors, it might be a bit heavy on IOS. 

_The latest numbers from research firm Gartner reveal that the smartphone industry continues to be largely a two-horse race between iOS and Android. The two mobile operating systems combined for 98.4 percent worldwide market share in the fourth calendar quarter of 2015, compared to 96.4 percent in the year-ago quarter. _


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

laz57
I agree with you totally but it will not happen.

as to my thoughts on this issue when lionel-JLC owned it he also made other products so am sure in lean lionel train years it offset the lower profits of making toy trains.

the other aspect is the younger folks have a high home mortgage and health insurance is way up and the need for 2 cars latest tablet laptops cell phones and cell plans it all adds up not much left for hobbies or? 

the other issue as you stated is rotten quality control parts to repair after 1-3 years and you have a high dollar dinosaur that again you pay for more electronics be it command control or a simple conventional board either way the engine you paid 1000-2000 is not as manufactured and thus will not render a resale amount as it would if all features as built still worked!

this is my reason for not buying anything new any more why would I pay high dollar for something you no longer can get replacement parts for be it 1 year or 50 years from now.

lastly Mike R left why only his friends know real reason my speculation he seen the writing on the wall as to a less features offered with higher prices at same time I heard that lionel techs had left not sure if this is true. and longer repair times add the multiple trips for an engine to them for repair under warranty and the greatest warranty dillusion that if a smoke unit stops or a board fails well you added to much fluid so no warranty yet they return as fixed yet is not and has other issues that it did not have when sent to them.
all of this says to a person this company indeed is strictly a for profit company and customer service is not in our favor.

I have not purchased anything since the last lionel BB vision line.

a rambling of an old fella that grew up in the 1950's when a companies customer service actually meant something and demanded quality products out of the box.


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## DJones (Oct 19, 2015)

I do not understand all the negativity here. Lionel has been making and marketing toy trains for over 116 years. Even in their so called hay day during the early to mid fifties, there catalog offerings were quite small in relation to what is being offered today. The size of Lionel's 2017 Signature Edition is being described as too small small but I think we forget that Lionel also released three other catalogs at the same time. So, let us consider the total number of pages of product that Lionel is bringing to the table this year:

Signature Edition 112 pages
Ready to Run 112 pages
Christmas Catalog 64 pages
American Flyer 44 pages

Total pages offerings 342

Wow! 342 pages of product being offered in one year seems like an astronomical amount of product being brought to the toy train marketplace by one company.

Another factor I feel worth considering is exactly who is reading and posting here and on other forums devoted to our hobby. The youth is too busy "doing" to take time to discuss obscure ideas. The young adults are too busy trying to establish or create a life for themselves (education, settling on a career, finding a mate, etc) to spend much time pontificating in an online chat. Middle age folks are normally in their most productive and lucrative years with major expenses and a need to expend most of their energy making the most of their careers/family.
As the children move on and careers wind down, we are fortunate to have more time to spend on hobbies. So most of the input on forums is from those 50 and above. Is that really the demographic that has insight about the future of toy trains?

Personally, I have been attracted to toy trains since I first saw layout in a Sears store in the early 50's. No one I knew in the rural area where I grew up seemed to have any interest in toy trains. I was 13 before I could convince my parents that spending what to them was a lot of money for a toy train was an OK use of their funds. As with most others, the trains were put away in late high school only to be remembered as I turned 29. At that time in the mid 70's, I was amazed and excited when I learned that Lionel was still making trains. I am now 70 and have loved having my trains running for 41 years. In those 41 year, I have been able to accumulate far more than I ever imagined. Although I have more than I could ever want, I still usually find something worthwhile in most catalogs. As a Southern RR fan, it has been nice to see far more offered of late than in the past so I ordered the SOU Sd 40's. I am fascinated by the though of having the NS Theater car being able to transmit video as the train goes around the track so I order one of those.

I guess what I have been trying to communicate is that most of us her have more than we need to enjoy the hobby so we have become very selective in our purchases. But at the same time, people are reaching the later of their work years and begining to look for something to occupy their time in retirement. These are the people who may not have yet seen what we may consider the "same old engines and rolling stock".

I will end my diatribe by asking the question - Why all the negativity? Seems like some of the responses on another thread asking what we can do make MTF grow was to be less negative.

Happy railroading,
Don


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## Stoshu (Jun 20, 2015)

Signature Edition 112 pages
Ready to Run 112 pages
Christmas Catalog 64 pages
American Flyer 44 pages

Total pages offerings 342


Great point Don.....


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Yes it is a lot of negativity. 

We need metrics (statistics) or else this is all speculation. 

Subjects like this draw the members that want to vent about the titillating subject matter. 

I thought the comment about "new tooling" being absent and not mattering was one of the few comments I disagree with. Plastics, sharpness of details - can all be improved with new tooling. 

The price concerns? The price increases are due to the ever insatiable demand for realism. Realism costs money. When you compare the $2300 BB to the next catalog MTH BB, it's not even close. 

The Lionel BB was awesome. I think Lionel is trying to build something for everyone. There are some wealthy model train hobbyists. Guys that make 6 figures annually and can afford a BB at $2300. 

Then there is a large group of hobbyists like me in the "middle" who can afford one Legacy line or Imperial, etc every so often but for which the LC + is a better fit. 

I do have some RTR and LC and RailKing stuff. When I compare it to my better stuff, I want the better more detailed lines. 

Why put Lionel in bankruptcy before it has to? It may never. But with Lionel gone, then hobbyists in 3 rail are down to 2 manufacturers right? (Mainline retail oriented) Williams and MTH. 

If Lionel can't make it, what does that portend for MTH and Williams? I have never seen a Williams "catalog" at my hobby store. 

The bottom line is the cheapest "new" LC is going to be in the $350 to $450 range now because even at this lower price, you die hards still want sounds, smoke and features. 

I have no issue with buying used locomotives but why not buy something new from time to time in the LC + range for $499?

We don't know what Lionel's margins are. We have no statistics to measure. How about the MTRA? Are the clubs seeing declining membership? I don't like speculation. Just the facts.


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## JimL (Aug 16, 2015)

I was never into O scale model railroading as much as virtually everyone else here, but 2-Rail / DCC has rekindled my interest in the scale. I know others that feel the same as me. Is 2-rail growing? Or, is it just in my small world?

If it is, maybe that could be some additional sales for Lionel. Or, would it be too big of an endeavor?

I don't buy anything from Mike Wolf, so unless Lionel has a "must have" piece of rolling stock, I'm pretty much going to be an Atlas customer. I was fairly disappointed in 3rd Rail's 3-rail Y6b, and sold it to buy the Legacy version, but I will be buying a 2-rail diesel from them. 

I'd like to able to buy from Lionel in the future, too.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

DJones said:


> ... So, let us consider the total number of pages of product that Lionel is bringing to the table this year:
> 
> Signature Edition 112 pages
> Ready to Run 112 pages
> ...


Yes... but unfortunately 90% of those products will arrive in November/December 2017!!!  And the other 10% will slip into 2018. 

David


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

As others have done, I started with conventional O gauge and over time migrated to become a steadfast Lionel TMCC customer but now MTH's DCS wifi has been converting me to DCS as I enjoy the possibilities of controlling trains with a tablet or smart phone. I would stay loyal to Lionel if I could but being an Android user, I’ve been abandoned. By catering to Apple users and aligning to iOS (Apple), it seems for the present time Lionel is signaling it has forsaken and doesn't care about Android users.
If this is truly the case, I feel Lionel is gifting MTH with this new market niche and sealing its doom since Android smart devices have left Apple in the dust in both total sales and users worldwide.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Yes... but unfortunately 90% of those products will arrive in November/December 2017!!!  And the other 10% will slip into 2018.
> 
> David


David
That is true. I ordered my BTO GN Hustle Muscle months ago from a previous catalog and supposedly they are going to build it around now or in the next coupe of months. 

BTO means BTO not "We'll build it when we feel like it."


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

*"We need metrics (statistics) or else this is all speculation."* 

You are absolutely correct with this statement. So let's look at some "known" statistics.

For 2017, this is the information that Don has provided:

S*ignature Edition 112 pages
Ready to Run 112 pages
Christmas Catalog 64 pages
American Flyer 44 pages

Total pages offerings 342*

I looked at 2016 this morning and found:

*Signature Edition 168 pages
Ready to Run 144 pages
Christmas Catalog 21 pages
American Flyer 60 pages

Total pages offerings 393*

On the surface, that's a 13% reduction, no big deal. But upon closer examination, all but the Christmas Catalog were greatly reduced which gives rise to the question are the Christmas sales now leading the parade while other non-Christmas related sales are not..Their flagship publication, the Signature Catalog, dropped a *whopping 33%*. That's startling compared to recent years.

The very nature of this discussion cannot be all positive as anyone who has a pulse is no doubt wondering what is going on. We are privileged to be able to have this kind of open discussion without the fear of the big delete button. Try that elsewhere and see how far you get.

I started this thread with the statement that I have been a loyal Lionel customer for 70 years and what is going on now makes me a little sad, but I am still a fan. I believe this had been a good discussion so far and just raises issues relative to the future of our hobby. *The last time I checked, the Ostrich is not our Official Bird*.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> ... We are privileged to be able to have this kind of open discussion without the fear of the big delete button. Try that elsewhere and see how far you get.
> 
> I started this thread with the statement that I have been a loyal Lionel customer for 70 years and what is going on now makes me a little sad, but I am still a fan. I believe this had been a good discussion so far and just raises issues relative to the future of our hobby. ...


Brian, many of us are still "fans" of the Lionel brand. We may not all like the directions that different Lionel management teams have taken the company in recent years. But we're still fans of the brand, despite the fact that the Lionel "company" of today bears little to no resemblance to the Lionel "company" of our childhood years. 

Most certainly, we feel more change is in the wind. Yet there's still something unique about the Lionel "brand" that has withstood the test of time. Just like Xerox and Google have reached the status of becoming verbs in our everyday language, Lionel has reached the status of being the de-facto brand in the 3-rail toy/model train world -- whether right or wrong. Only time will tell the brand's true future. When I think back to that 1969 Lionel catalog with just 8 pages (including the front and back covers), it resembled more a pamphlet than a catalog of a company on the brink of disaster. So who would have thought in those days that the best years of the 3-rail toy train world would still be another 40+ years away!!!

Nobody's crystal ball was that good back then... and it probably still isn't that good now either. 

David


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

As usual, well said, David. Your reply is to the point and meaningful.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If I have to pick between the Legacy and DCS command systems, my choice is easy. I pick the Legacy hands down, it's far more reliable, at least in my experience.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

*"If I have to pick between the Legacy and DCS command systems, my choice is easy. I pick the Legacy hands down, it's far more reliable, at least in my experience"*

I totally agree with this statement as well.


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## gnnpnut (Oct 19, 2016)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"If I have to pick between the Legacy and DCS command systems, my choice is easy. I pick the Legacy hands down, it's far more reliable, at least in my experience"*
> 
> I totally agree with this statement as well.


I'd totally agree with the above statements, but in a modular railroad environment, they both have their warts. Legacy made things far better than TMCC on our modular railroad, and when we did our last show, without Legacy (which failed at the show), it was a disaster. Needed to use the "healing hand of health" frequently just to control the locomotive when trying to change speeds / direction on certain parts of the layout. For whatever reason, Legacy seems to have a stronger signal. Doesn't make things perfect for every locomotive, but makes it a whole lot better.

Prefer the simplicity of the TMCC handheld though. The DCS handheld is even better, with a nice display. Too bad that other detractors make using DCS a miserable experience. 

Regards, 
GNNPNUT


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"We need metrics (statistics) or else this is all speculation."*
> 
> You are absolutely correct with this statement. So let's look at some "known" statistics.
> 
> ...


Surprised no one caught the math? 342 ?(actually 332 pages) 

332 pages of offerings, minus 44 AF, (not into "S")= 288 pages.
288 pages minus 64 pages of Christmas (not into Holiday items) = 224 pages left.
224 pages of offering minus 112 of sets, (don't buy sets) = 112 pages.
Of them 112 pages, how many are promises, or BTOs? Which maybe 1 or more yeas to arrive, or never built. So overall not much for people like me or my friends who also run "O". There is a big reduction from 2016 were there were items of interest as long as it wasn't BTOs.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

Just reinforces my point, Walter. I think most of us hope for the best in terms of the future of Lionel. It will take however creativity, better QC, listening more closely to what their customers REALLY want, and management that is in tune with market conditions.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

They are no longer manufacturers with an almost captive market. A good dose of marketing 101 might be a good place to start. That is what you just basically defined Brian.

Or maybe

Big Orange, meet Mark and company. Instant change. Want to manufacture in China, here's how. Need marketing skills (pretty obvious), we can handle. Need to understand customers, we have a whole group doing it already. PR a need, we do it daily. Advertising, we have a department. Distribution problems, welcome to our stores. Pricing solutions needed, let us show you how to eat the competition's lunch.

Someone might want to make introductions. Maybe they have already met.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

I learned a long time ago, it is very difficult to manage anything that you don't completely understand. There is no substitute to working your way up the management ladder, and when you become the boss, you at least know as much as the folks you manage as well as having a good feel for the product or services you supervise. Some may suggest that a degree from the Harvard School of Business is all you need, but running a business that you don't completely understand presents its challenges.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

By metric meant - is the size of the hobby really decreasing? 

How to measure? Catalog size is not it. We are all disappointed, yes. 

I was in the old car hobby, which is going through a sea change. Generations of guys restoring cars is over. The numbers in the clubs is way down. The overall age of the collectors is probably 72 or so. 

The number of young people (here we will call 'young' people say 35 years old, or about half the average age of the collectors) is way down and the cars they own are a lot "newer" (i.e. 1970 to 2000's) 

So are any of you officers in the model train clubs? Can anyone provide statistical information about decreases in club memberships or average age of membership?

As with the old car hobby, cost has driven many members and potential members out of the train hobby. 

Of course, Lionel and MTH are not going to volunteer sales increase or decrease numbers. As I understand, Lionel is not a publicly held company. 

You all make great points. I just don't think we have enough information and only one catalog.


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## Rich883 (Jul 15, 2015)

I agree Bryan, more data is needed to draw a conclusion.

One point I think we all miss sometimes is that we are not the majority of model train buyers. Walter pointed out how many pages of the catalog were for sets and Christmas, which were not of interest, these are not my interest either, but are for many.

If the number of serious buyers are less than half of the market, while sets and Christmas are a big part of the business you could see how a company would focus on this. Focusing solely on a shrinking segment, who are buying less product, and continues to demand more features costing more R&D would not be a wise choice.

Look do I have any hard facts, no, mine are speculation like everyone else, but I think they may hold water. Sometimes it is too easy to think we are the majority of the market but hard to learn we may not be.

While I may not be a dyed in the wool Lionel fan (more of MTH for me) but I can see a company trying to find a more diversified business to be around for a longer time.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I read seveal posts that say Lionel is not offering enough variety and product.
It seems to me that over time almost everything has been offered. What more can one ask?


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> So are any of you officers in the model train clubs? Can anyone provide statistical information about decreases in club memberships or average age of membership?


I am president of my model train club. It is a small club, so the statics on number of members is not very relevant but I can say that we have been trying to add a couple of members for a few years and have had a hard time doing it. As for age, we are desperate to get some younger people involved. All our members are over 55. We just added a new member and he is over 60. (I'm 64). The average age of our membership seems to go up 1 year every year. There doesn't seem to be younger people interested in model railroading anymore.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

PatKn said:


> I am president of my model train club. It is a small club, so the statics on number of members is not very relevant but I can say that we have been trying to add a couple of members for a few years and have had a hard time doing it. As for age, we are desperate to get some younger people involved. All our members are over 55. We just added a new member and he is over 60. (I'm 64). The average age of our membership seems to go up 1 year every year. There doesn't seem to be younger people interested in model railroading anymore.



Pat, You may have done this, however I'll offer this up. I was recruited to my local club by a member who saw my name in the TCA bulletin which announces individuals applying for membership. He looks through the lists and finds local individuals and calls them asking if they would be interested in meeting other local people interested in our hobby.


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

Just a suggestion, not only Lionel, but Atlas and MTH also. Make available a poll yearly on what the modelers want, in engines, or rolling stock. Have a deadline say 3 months and publish these results. Then a BTO having it known what the minimum numbers needed to build these. After polls are in announce what will be built and set a delivery deadline. As to rolling stock, I would be interested in realistic sounding freight cars sound intensity set to speed of the rolling stock. The last bing, bang cars were a disaster in sound. The squealing hot box annoying.
Make available a low cost, from past dies, a first time buyer train set for kids to get their interest started in trains. Kids still love trains, watch them at train shows along with their parents and their awe look in their eyes. But many can't afford starter sets at 400.00 plus, but a small 3 car set with an engine, track and simple safe transformer, and LionChief control may help this hobby. If anyone can do this, I'm sure Menards can.
Final note to manufacturers, reach out to the consumers, stop, look, and listen to them.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

I will say this about DCS.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

SantaFeJim said:


> I will say this about DCS.


Jim, can you elaborate on that? 

David


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

*"How to measure? Catalog size is not it. We are all disappointed, yes"*

The subject of this thread concerns itself with the future of Lionel. It did not address the bigger picture, though that would be a good topic for a new thread. There are not a lot of facts or *measurements* known to the general public about where Lionel is now at, but one thing for sure is the catalog size. Their flagship Signature catalog took a *hit by 1/3* less in 2017 verses 2016. *By any measurement*, that is a very significant number.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

*"It seems to me that over time almost everything has been offered. What more can one ask?"*

Well, in Lionel's case, I would not go so far as to say "everything". Let's go back to the first Signature Catalog when the ATSF 3000 was introduced. Try to find one now. This was a rather obscure engine and had not been made before in our hobby. Let me go back to a quotation that I used earlier in this thread, "*if you build it, they will come*".


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## walter (Jan 31, 2014)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> *"It seems to me that over time almost everything has been offered. What more can one ask?"*
> 
> Well, in Lionel's case, I would not go so far as to say "everything". Let's go back to the first Signature Catalog when the ATSF 3000 was introduced. Try to find one now. This was a rather obscure engine and had not been made before in our hobby. Let me go back to a quotation that I used earlier in this thread, "*if you build it, they will come*".


So right. There are many, some unique engines never offered in "O" scale that would sell. Krauss Maffei for one. I know in my personal circle that 20+ would sell. Some to run, other to display only.
There are so many that have never been produced. Same for early riveted Tank cars, and later Tank cars in single dome Black only. So many are asking for these.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

walter said:


> So right. There are many, some unique engines never offered in "O" scale that would sell. Krauss Maffei for one. I know in my personal circle that 20+ would sell. Some to run, other to display only.
> There are so many that have never been produced. Same for early riveted Tank cars, and later Tank cars in single dome Black only. So many are asking for these.


And this seems to be the market that Sunset Models / 3rd Rail has a good grip on. They offer unique models at premium prices (probably due to the brass construction, new tooling costs, and relatively small production volumes). And scale enthusiasts seem to line up for pre-orders without blinking an eye -- essentially paying Sunset's announced MSRP prices, since there is no dealer distribution network per se. 

Exactly how much of this market Lionel wants to go after remains to be seen. But they certainly aren't shy about setting MSRP's that are rivaling Sunset Models -- despite Lionel's products being die-cast and somewhat less-detailed vs. Sunset Models highly detailed brass offerings.

Given Lionel's 2017 catalog(s), it appears this is NOT a market Lionel wants to pursue at this time. Instead, they seem to be bolstering the LC and LC+ product line, which doesn't send the greatest message to serious Legacy enthusiasts.

David


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Is it worth it to Lionel or any company to make so few? It seems that there would be a very small group that could afford limited production. Isn't the reason that many cataloged items never get produced is because of a lack of orders? I wonder if "Lionel Lines"
might have out sold named companies at times?


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## ogaugeguy (Feb 3, 2012)

"...they seem to be bolstering the LC and LC+ product line, which doesn't send the greatest message to serious Legacy enthusiasts."

David[/QUOTE]

Perhaps there's more revenue to be gained from the higher volume sales of the LionChief and LC+ product line than from the smaller volume sales of the niche product Legacy line. And if their goal is to return manufacturing to the USA, then the costs associated with making LC and LC+ would likely be lower than making Legacy.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Since Brian began this thread mentioning the current size and lack of new offerings in the latest Lionel catalogs, I have this to proffer. Does anyone out there, or here, actually pay for these catalogs? I get them directly from Lionel for being a past purchaser of direct sales from Lionel, and an additional set from Charles Ro for being an online customer. I don't pay for them. These things have to cost an arm and a leg, to create, assemble, package and mail. 

I personally find the catalogs interesting, with a wealth of knowledge available, and fun to look at. There are things I hope to see in the offerings, and am disappointed if they are not present, but I still marvel at the beauty of them, and manage to find several things I desire in each one. 

Now, this is not a comment on Lionel's future. I am probably the least qualified to offer any such opinion. But, I do think each catalog offering is a marvel in, and of itself. And, as a stand-alone product, that I don't have to pay for, I would never criticize it, or them. Someone mentioned that there aren't any Williams catalogs in the stores. If you want one, I think you can download a PDF file, but if you want a hard copy, it'll cost you 12 bucks, and it doesn't even compare in physical size (I think it's on the order of 6.5" x 9"). So, even though Lionel may not have new, exciting offerings in each catalog, I applaud them in providing me with entertainment and enjoyment a couple of times each year. This helps to keep my interest and even sends a few dollars to both Lionel and Charles Ro each year.

Just one man's opinion, mine. Thanks for listening. (actually reading, if you took the time)


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Let's not forget that some of us would like to see more (any?) European steam in Legacy.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Exactly how much of this market Lionel wants to go after remains to be seen. But they certainly aren't shy about setting MSRP's that are rivaling Sunset Models -- despite Lionel's products being die-cast and somewhat less-detailed vs. Sunset Models highly detailed brass offerings.


I think that's why Lionel guards the Legacy system, especially the sounds, so jealously, that is their hole card that's difficult for the other vendors like 3rd Rail to match.


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## Craignor (Jan 9, 2016)

John,

That's correct. Legacy, with the terrific sounds, the silky smooth speed control, and the wireless tether on the steamers are features are unmatched by anyone else, those features are important to me, and I pay a premium for them. 

If Lionel just could improve their smoke system to equal MTH, they would have the complete package. The three blinks of the cab light are Lionel's Achilles heel.






gunrunnerjohn said:


> I think that's why Lionel guards the Legacy system, especially the sounds, so jealously, that is their hole card that's difficult for the other vendors like 3rd Rail to match.


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## kmcsjr (Dec 10, 2010)

For the last 10 yrs, I've been starting my nieces And nephews off, with trains. I'm not sure it's going to hold any of their attention, beyond something to put under he tree. If that holds true, on a larger scale, model trains may not last much longer than we do. 
Is that really such a bad thing? I'm sure many toys/hobbies/interests, have died off, through the years. I need to make the time to enjoy the trains I have. If I don't buy any more... 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

BobS said:


> ... I don't pay for them. These things have to cost an arm and a leg, to create, assemble, package and mail.
> 
> ...


Oh... I think we're all paying for the catalogs. It's just buried in the price of the products we buy! 

David


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Oh... I think we're all paying for the catalogs. It's just buried in the price of the products we buy!
> 
> David


Sure, in an indirect way, like some government services. I don't directly use them, but I do pay for them. I pay to maintain roads and bridges I never drive on, I pay for the free stuff the government supplies to others, but receive no benefit. But, with these catalogs, I do receive something directly, and no actual out-of-pocket expenses.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Craignor said:


> ...The three blinks of the cab light are Lionel's Achilles heel.


Could you expand on that a bit?


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

kmcsjr said:


> For the last 10 yrs, I've been starting my nieces And nephews off, with trains. I'm not sure it's going to hold any of their attention, beyond something to put under he tree. If that holds true, on a larger scale, model trains may not last much longer than we do.
> Is that really such a bad thing? I'm sure many toys/hobbies/interests, have died off, through the years. I need to make the time to enjoy the trains I have. If I don't buy any more...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have 3 grandsons that all were raised running one of the versions of the Seattle & Yakima RR. By the time they reached 11 or 12, they all had graduated to video games and all the other gizmos. Electric trains became boring.

Bill


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Jim, can you elaborate on that?
> 
> David


David, my mother taught me early in life that if you can't say anything good... you know the rest.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

seayakbill said:


> I have 3 grandsons that all were raised running one of the versions of the Seattle & Yakima RR. By the time they reached 11 or 12, they all had graduated to video games and all the other gizmos. Electric trains became boring.
> 
> Bill


When I was that age music, girls and things like that took up my time. I would pull the trains out once in a while. Now years later I'm back to it. So maybe when they are older they may get the train bug and even get their kids into it.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

DennyM said:


> When I was that age music, girls and things like that took up my time. I would pull the trains out once in a while. Now years later I'm back to it. So maybe when they are older they may get the train bug and even get their kids into it.


Hi Denny, I have a 2 year old grandaughter, I also have a Lionel reproduction Girls Train. In about another year she will be training on the layout with the girls train. Maybe I will get 6 or 7 years of electric train operating out of her before the electronic gizmos win her over.

Bill


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2017)

This has turned out to be a wonderful discussion. Thanks all for your participation.

*Now it would be nice if the people at Lionel read our comments.*


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm not sure we were that different. I grew up with toy trains (Marx set) in the house when I was three up until junior high. The trains were around but I moved on to Heathkits and electronics projects and other stuff - the equivalent then of today's video games and coding projects. 

But I came back to toy trains eventually, and that is my point. I think many of these young kids will, too. The appeal is much greater when you are older and can have a layout and spent time making it yours alone - and share with your kids/grandkids. Whether Lionel will be a part of it many years from now, I don't know. It would be nice if they were, but Marx isn't (what I had as a kid) and I still enjoy it today.


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Many of us building model railroads today have significant interest in steam locomotives because they were impressive to us when we were young.Most of todays youngsters have never seen a real steam loco. They may like them because of all the extra stuff on the outside but are more familiar with diesels. Diesels also usually have more attractive paint jobs, not black
The various companies probably should offer as many different types of diesels in as many paint schems as possible, including 
fantasy designs. The same goes for rolling stock.


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## Togatown (Nov 29, 2013)

Lee Willis said:


> I'm not sure we were that different. I grew up with toy trains (Marx set) in the house when I was three up until junior high. The trains were around but I moved on to Heathkits and electronics projects and other stuff - the equivalent then of today's video games and coding projects.
> 
> But I came back to toy trains eventually, and that is my point. I think many of these young kids will, too. The appeal is much greater when you are older and can have a layout and spent time making it yours alone - and share with your kids/grandkids. Whether Lionel will be a part of it many years from now, I don't know. It would be nice if they were, but Marx isn't (what I had as a kid) and I still enjoy it today.


Lee- 
I agree with you as to how most of us have re-entered the hobby after putting it aside as we grew up. The biggest problem is that you must be exposed to it initially, in order to have the best chance of coming back. 
The likelihood of being turned on to a hobby are much slimmer, if you were never familiar with it to begin with. 
So unless your grandfather has a train hobby now, you probably aren't going to get involved during those crucial formative years. Kids are going to want to fly a drone instead of watching a train go around a loop. Just sayin...


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Togatown said:


> So unless your grandfather has a train hobby now, you probably aren't going to get involved during those crucial formative years.


I hope that is exactly what we are doing. I have 16 and, I hope and feel a little confident that, two or three will return to this hobby.


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## Togatown (Nov 29, 2013)

Wood said:


> I hope that is exactly what we are doing. I have 16 and, I hope and feel a little confident that, two or three will return to this hobby.


We can only hope! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

If you want to see that just about everyone is jumping on the band wagon with increased prices, check out Williams Diesels. 

I was shocked to see these prices. I know they aren't street price but still? 

http://resources.bachmanntrains.com/bachmann2017/

Pages starting at 318 shows you these are MSRP, but WOW for Williams? Cheapest MSRP $430. Everbody wants a peice of the pie? 

As DAVID has said from time to time again, who can afford these prices?


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

It's been said the only constant in the universe is change. Prices are always going to go up and that's the way it is.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2017)

*"It's been said the only constant in the universe is change. Prices are always going to go up and that's the way it is."*

Good point, Denny. That's probably why the market is much more selective now about their new acquisitions.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

From reading these responses, it seems some of them equate Lionel's future with their own buying and spending preferences. Which unless we have inside information, it's the only way we can speculate on Lionel's or any train manufacturer's future.

There are a lot of items in all of the catalogs that I have no interest in. But that doesn't mean those companies are going down the tubes just because I don't have an interest in every item they list. I'm positive there are many people who are thrilled at the offerings that don't interest some of us. We've seen that in many catalog threads which tells me there is something for everyone. Everyone doesn't always mean just ourselves!

For the current Lionel catalog there were several items that I'd love to get. But a few of them are priced a bit more than I'm comfortable with. I'm not one to complain about pricing, but it does seem since BTO and Vision Line were created that prices have taken an olympian jump, even on models that don't offer these upgrades.

One item that I've been wanting ever since I rode behind it in an excursion train is the Western Maryland Three Truck Shay #6. I checked the Cass Scenic Railroad website and discovered it really is a three truck Shay, not four truck as modeled by MTH years ago. I didn't hesitate to order it from the current Lionel catalog. Hopefully I can pick up the other items at a later date.

So is Lionel's future bright or dismal? For me it seems steady. I'm sure we'll see some wonderful things from all manufacturers as technology grows, however slowly.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

laz57 said:


> If you want to see that just about everyone is jumping on the band wagon with increased prices, check out Williams Diesels.
> 
> I was shocked to see these prices. I know they aren't street price but still?
> 
> ...


I don't think Williams is jumping on any band wagon. This is the price of admission to purchasing new locomotives from all manufacturers. 

The prices are LC+ range. Details are LC+. 

I guess I don't understand. We all want realism, but we want to pay $250? That's called going out of business. 

Others say "I won't buy anything new, I buy off ebay, used."

So, Lionel, MTH and Williams go out of business and we have nothing new to add to layouts. 

I'm not saying go out and buy 4 - 5 new locomotives per year. Just buy one at LC+, Williams or MTH Imperials for $450 to $550. 

We need the manufacturers, they need us. 

Williams rolling stock was the same price as Lionel and MTH. That is where Menards can make huge inroads, and has. 

I don't think Menards detail and authenticity are up to the $70 to $90 offering from the big 3, but if I have to pay for detail, sound and authenticity, I want it in the lead - the locomotives, not necessarily the rolling stock. 

I don't think any rolling stock should be more than $60 ($59.99). I would prefer Menard's pricing in the $19.99 to $24.99 range. 

I am at the point where I would like to buy 2-3 rolling stock pieces per month (25 to 35 per year). But at an average price of - what? - $70 a piece - that comes to $2000 to $3000 a year!

I just spent $600 for Lionels 4 car passenger set for Rock Island. I would love to have a Golden State set, but I need to let my arse heal a bit before I get them.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Traindiesel said:


> ... I didn't hesitate to order it from the current Lionel catalog. Hopefully I can pick up the other items at a later date.
> 
> So is Lionel's future bright or dismal? For me it seems steady. I'm sure we'll see some wonderful things from all manufacturers as technology grows, however slowly.


Agreed. You saw one item in the catalog that you wanted, and price, though a consideration, was not necessarily an object. 

I do the same. These are micro decisions that add up to maybe the companies doing all right. We just don't know because Lionel is privately held. 

I was a member for one year of the LCCA. They have thousands of members. If each member buys 2-3 new items from Lionel each year, that adds up. 

I think the catalog size and offerings is a 1 - 2 year adjustment. 2018's Signature Catalog will return some offerings we have not seen.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Bryan Moran said:


> I don't think Williams is jumping on any band wagon. This is the price of admission to purchasing new locomotives from all manufacturers.
> 
> The prices are LC+ range. Details are LC+.
> 
> ...


I agree Bryan, though I'm one of the "I won't buy new" people. I don't care about realism, but if it has some nice details and a fairly decent price I'll buy it, but only if I can see it first hand. I buy Menards because there is one three miles from me and I like their stock. 

The same with engines. I have limited my shopping to train shows because I can get a good deal. There will always be train guys who will spend money for new trains, I'm just not one of them. 

When I go to York in April I'm going to look for a Legacy and maybe a LC+(among other things) and after that it will be a long time before I do that again. Last year at York I got a Legacy HT16-44 for under $300. If I can do that, why should I buy new?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I only have a handful of passenger cars that I've purchased new, most are from the used market. If you are patient, things come your way at a good price.

I'm currently waiting on an MTH Premier A-A Santa Fe F3 set that was upgraded to ERR cruise and Railsounds, I paid $200 for it. I'm eager to see what my $200 bought, the pictures sure looked good.  Imagine buying that set new...


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2017)

*"I only have a handful of passenger cars"*

John, you need to spend more time reading the Book of Brian.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You missed the last part of the sentence Brian, "*that I've purchased new*". While I doubt I match your stash of passenger cars, I can field 70-80 of them.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> ...
> 
> I'm not saying go out and buy 4 - 5 new locomotives per year. Just buy one at LC+, Williams or MTH Imperials for $450 to $550.
> 
> ...


On the surface, this behavior only works if the overall number of potential buyers is increasing. That doesn't seem to be the case in our corner of the world, (i.e. 3-Rail toy/model train enthusiasts). We just don't have an influx of young new buyers. So this isn't a growth strategy, generally speaking.

That's why I said in my earlier post, that Lionel's biggest challenge (and there are admittedly several) resides in the fact that an increasing number of folks are realizing they ALREADY have more trains than any one person should own.

As you pointed out, it's STILL an expensive hobby even when somebody decides to cut back to just a few token purchases a year. For example, if 10 buyers habitually purchased $10,000 worth of new trains each year, that represents $100,000 of revenue. Now if all 10 of these buyers decide to only purchase $2,000 of new product each year, those same buyers now represent only $20,000 of revenue.  Where in this market do you see the influx of new buyers coming to make up that huge difference?  We'd need roughly 4:1 NEW buyers spending $2,000/each to just achieve STABLE year-to-year sales -- not to even mention growth in overall sales. I just don't see that happening.

Bottom line... I'm not expecting we'll see future catalogs growing in size. The importers are simply adjusting to the harsh realities of an oversaturated market of new product. Combine that with buyers realizing they already have too much, and you have a recipe for several years (at least) of slow sales and no significant growth.

David


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I try not to focus on the past _(what I've bought and how much I have)_. I just focus on moving forward, and looking forward to getting the trains I will need. 

But, admittedly, I've slowed down a lot from a mix of having most of the trains I set out to acquire, the hefty pricing and storage space getting tight. I've been fortunate to be in the right place at the right time to get most of my life long favorite trains when they were available and now hard to find, especially K-Line & Golden Gate Depot passenger sets. There are a few I missed, but by the time the layout is fully operational those trains most likely will be made again. (Scale PC black GG1, I hope) Along with trains I want that haven't been made yet.

I also am not bound by purchasing from one manufacturer. So I don't just look at the future of Lionel, but the health of all the others too. Whatever happens, I hope we never return to a time of just one toy train manufacturer.


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