# Would you buy a model of this?



## Vincent

I found these photos while researching locomotives. They are all real.


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## Vincent

I don't know if I would want a model of this.


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## flyernut

To answer your question, yes.. Ugly is beautiful!


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## Vincent

flyernut said:


> To answer your question, yes.. Ugly is beautiful!


 Valid point!

And I definitely want this one.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The first one looks like someone just tried to streamline a Hudson, I suspect the running gear is a bog standard steamer.


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## flyernut

Vincent said:


> Valid point!
> 
> And I definitely want this one.


The amazing things designer's think of,lol... And I want one too!!


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## MohawkMike

None of the above thank you!


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> I found these photos while researching locomotives. They are all real.


That should be the locomotive in the next 'Sin City' installment.


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## rwslater

Got to have one for the layout, The first one looks like some of Germany's first tries at an armoring a train.


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## cid

> Ugly is beautiful!


And i would REALLY enjoy seeing models of those...on someone else's layout!!


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## Nikola

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The first one looks like someone just tried to streamline a Hudson, I suspect the running gear is a bog standard steamer.


Some poor stuckee had a minimal budget, limited tooling, a borrowed workforce, and a tight timeframe. That is not that bad - with a decent paint job and graphics could like very smart indeed.


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## johnfl68

There are a lot of interesting "Streamlined" Steam locomotives", some more unique and interesting then others.

Here is a listing of some of them:

(you have to click through to each to see pictures)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Streamlined_steam_locomotives

Like the MÁV Class 242 and the Pennsylvania Railroad class T1.


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## Old_Hobo

rwslater said:


> Got to have one for the layout, The first one looks like some of Germany's first tries at an armoring a train.


Bingo! :thumbsup:

It wasn't so much streamlining as it was armoring.....


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## Vincent

If the model includes the HO figures, I don't want this one.


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## Lemonhawk

Yes, it was all about Armoring the engine, no thought to streamlining.


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## Vincent

I think I would like this one.


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## Vincent

I definitely want this one. I think that it is a track inspector.


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## Colorado1445

I have always been a nerd for history (especially military history)


Check out this train from WW1 and the Russian Civil War. It is a tank on rails. Imagine making a layout based on the front lines of the trenches. A switching layout where you have to position rail guns for artillery barrages would be interesting.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Colorado1445 said:


> Check out this train from WW1 and the Russian Civil War. It is a tank on rails. Imagine making a layout based on the front lines of the trenches. A switching layout where you have to position rail guns for artillery barrages would be interesting.


One hit on the track in front of it and it's immobilized.


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## Vincent

The Russian train that Colorado is referring to changed hands a few times. It could be pulled with a train, could pull a few cars itself, and of course could run the rails itself.

The Communists crashed through the White Russian lines with it and captured two trains. The Czech Legion, which got stuck in Russia, captured it and headed east to the Pacific, where they used it to help control captured Russian rail lines. Somehow, Chinese warlords got it, somehow Poland got it, somehow the Communist Russians got it back, and somehow Germany captured it and scrapped it.


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> The Russian train that Colorado is referring to changed hands a few times. It could be pulled with a train, could pull a few cars itself, and of course could run the rails itself.
> 
> The Communists crashed through the White Russian lines with it and captured two trains. The Czech Legion, which got stuck in Russia, captured it and headed east to the Pacific, where they used it to help control captured Russian rail lines. Somehow, Chinese warlords got it, somehow Poland got it, somehow the Communist Russians got it back, and somehow Germany captured it and scrapped it.


Jim West and Artemus Gordon?


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## Colorado1445

Vincent said:


> The Russian train that Colorado is referring to changed hands a few times. It could be pulled with a train, could pull a few cars itself, and of course could run the rails itself.
> 
> The Communists crashed through the White Russian lines with it and captured two trains. The Czech Legion, which got stuck in Russia, captured it and headed east to the Pacific, where they used it to help control captured Russian rail lines. Somehow, Chinese warlords got it, somehow Poland got it, somehow the Communist Russians got it back, and somehow Germany captured it and scrapped it.


"Hey Sergi, where is train?"
"Ivan, don't get mad, but I lost it"
"Again?"


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## Vincent

I would definitely buy a model of this: so I can post it on the forum and ask if anybody can figure out what it is.


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> I would definitely buy a model of this: so I can post it on the forum and ask if anybody can figure out what it is.


Easy. Ark of the Covenant car. :laugh:


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## ebtnut

Nice try, but I believe that is a scale test car. Many U.S. roads had them to check the accuracy of their weigh scales. Even the East Broad Top had (has) one. Side note - scale cars almost never had air brakes, because the wear of the brake shoes would change the calibrated weight. They usually had hand brakes, but they were just to keep the car parked when set out.


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## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> Nice try, but I believe that is a scale test car. Many U.S. roads had them to check the accuracy of their weigh scales. Even the East Broad Top had (has) one. Side note - scale cars almost never had air brakes, because the wear of the brake shoes would change the calibrated weight. They usually had hand brakes, but they were just to keep the car parked when set out.



Now we know.


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## Mr.Buchholz

Nope. Those are nasty looking. Wouldn't go near a model of them. Sorry.

-J.


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## Vincent

Okay, how about a model of this?


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## Lee Willis

Now that would be cool. Very cool. I'd buy a model of that, Vincent.


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## Vincent

I would DEFINITELY buy a model of this one. With the Pennsylvania Railroad and New York Central locked in a desperate contest to attract New York City passengers, both railroads were using tunnels These tunnels usually had third rail electricity.

PRR had this self-propelled dual-crane tunnel car built. With a maximum speed of 35 mph, it could enter tunnels without having to be turned around, could swing its crane but not its counterweight (making narrow work possible) and could be pulled by a regular locomotive if necessary.

But if NYC had a tunnel accident, they would have to tow this car to another railroad in order to switch it over from the PRR lines. So NYC had one built. When the two merged, Penn Central got them both. Somehow, Amtrak got a third one.


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## Vincent

Another one that I would definitely want.


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## Vincent

The US Navy built five of these magnificent railcar guns during WW1. Built with brand new surplus navy cannon, their specialty was hitting German targets over twenty miles away as they followed an advancing US Army. In addition to factories, they would strike rail yards to keep extra enemy troops and supplies from reaching the front.

Designed to fire 300 times before wearing out, these cannon needed 1/2 hour per shot, but their all-Navy crews averaged over 150 shots per cannon. So effective that they were used until the end of the war, one of them fired one of the last shots of WW1.


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## Vincent

The first picture shows one of the actual railcars on display at a Navy museum. It only has one cannon--that second "cannon" is a missile display behind the railcar.


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## Lemonhawk

Any clue as to how it moved in azimuth or did it only fire in the direction of the track?


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## Old_Hobo

Fired from curved track.....


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## Lemonhawk

Good, northwestern Ohio is safe, not a curve in sight!


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## Vincent

Lemonhawk said:


> Any clue as to how it moved in azimuth or did it only fire in the direction of the track?


It's complicated. It needed a pit for the recoil. USUALLY, they built a section of curved track so the pit wasn't underneath the track.


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## flyernut

I believe I saw a tv program on how they moved this rail;gun from it's original position to it's new home.


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## Vincent

The US Navy's WW1 railcar gun was so successful that the Army decided to get in on the act. The M1920 railgun used identical surplus Navy cannon, but on a higher platform that did not require a pit to be dug for the recoil. The railcar was able to roll about 50 feet after being fired, and then was pulled back into place by a ground-mounted winch.

The war ended, however, so the 4 guns (1 was Navy and the other 3 were Army) never saw combat. Two were assigned to Los Angeles and two to the Panama Zone.

In 1946, the US had no enemies powerful enough to attack its coastline with a naval fleet, and all four guns were scrapped.


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## Old_Hobo

Don't tell me you never heard of German railway guns in WWII.....which were even BIGGER than the U.S. ones.....


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## flyernut

The Gustav appears to be a variable recoil howitzer. That is, the higher elevation of the barrel(tube), the most hydraulic pressure was put on the recoil cylinders, allowing less travel of the barrel in the highest point of elevation. No need for a recoil "pit" for the breech end of the barrel. I was a artillery crewman for a short period and our self-propelled 155mm howitzers were variable recoil. While firing in a direct fire situation, the breech would almost come back to the end of the turret, while firing in a high elevation situation, the barrel would only travel a short distance down..:thumbsup:


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## Vincent

I don't think I would want to buy a model of this one. I can't figure out how it can run on a curved track.


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## Vincent

Sorry, Gang. The last one was included by mistake and I can't figure out how to delete it.


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## Nikola

The PRR had the coolest engines.


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## Vincent

This goes back a little ways. Yes, they really did have weight cars to check the railroad scales.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Vincent said:


> Sorry, Gang. The last one was included by mistake and I can't figure out how to delete it.


I killed off the GG-1 for you.


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## Nikola

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I killed off the GG-1 for you.


Unfortunately, so did the Penn Central / Amtrack.


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## gunrunnerjohn

It took them longer than it took me!


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## Lemonhawk

This puts a little more meaning into "truck" mounted couplers! Still its a lot of wheels that are all on the same bogie!


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## cid

Vincent said:


> This goes back a little ways. Yes, they really did have weight cars to check the railroad scales.


I expect they still do.  Gotta calibrate somehow...


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## Vincent

Speaking of the GG-1, I wouldn't buy it because I don't like its appearance. But it was a remarkable engine.

First built in the 1930's, this scientific marvel could travel over 100 mph. It was designed to pull about 13 passenger cars, although it sometimes pulled freight.

Designed by, built for, and used only by the Pennsylvania Railroad, some of them served for over 40 years. And one of the reasons for retiring these electrical marvels was the unavailability of spare parts.

Most people never saw one. They ran the NYC-Philadelphia, Washington DC route, with most of the rest in eastern Pennsylvania. Yet it is one of the more popular model train locomotives.


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## Vincent

Okay, Hotshots! What is it, and would you buy a model of it?


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## Lee Willis

Vincent, It's a PRR long tender. I think I have a model of it, or something dang close. See the top steamer in the photo.


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## Vincent

Right you are Lee. It is the tender for the Pennsylvania Railroad's controversial T1 steam locomotive.

The PRR built 52 of these monsters, none or which lasted more than 10 years. Designed to easily run at 100mph, they were often run faster, causing excessive wear. Their excessive maintenance costs doomed them.

Defenders point out that if the PRR had used them properly, they would have remained as some of the greatest locomotives ever built. However, even if held down to 100 mph, engineers had a hard time controlling the excess power, which produced wheel slippage.

The tenders were sometimes used for other large steam locomotives.


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## Vincent

I wouldn't buy a model of Japan's D51, but it is an impressive machine. The last one was built in 1945, and some were still in service in the sixties. One is still in service for special trips.

The Russians captured two and kept one in service until 1979.

With over 1,000 built, it is Japan's most mass-produced steam locomotive, and over 100 of them are preserved at various museums and railroad displays.


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## Old_Hobo

I wonder if that was made in China? :laugh:


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## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> I wonder if that was made in China? :laugh:


Actually they sold some to China, and I think that China captured some during WW2.


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## Vincent

Japan uses armored trains and cars during its invasion of China. How many of these would you buy if they were models?


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## Old_Hobo

Probably none....unless you had a layout with tracks at whatever that gauge was, it wouldn't be fun.....


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## ebtnut

Just to clear things up a bit - that PRR long-haul tender is not from a T-1. The T-1 tenders were all welded and had a smooth curve up to the coal bunker. The one in the photo is a more conventional long-haul, probably off of either a J-1 or M-1.


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## Vincent

I'm not making this up.

During the Japanese invasion of China, a battle took place between an armored Japanese train and an armored Chinese train. Three different versions of the battle emerged.

1) Japanese--We were proceeding peacefully through China when the Chinese launched an unprovoked attack on us, killing the train commander. We fought back courageously, driving the Chinese train into retreat.

2) Nationalist Chinese--We were guarding a railroad station when a Japanese armored train approached, ordering us to leave. We opened fire, killing their commander, but we were outnumbered and forced to retreat.

3) Communist Chinese--Our heroic People's Army ambushed a Japanese train but did not have the equipment to penetrate its armor. Running to the train station, we recruited a Nationalist armored train to join us in the People's struggle. We inflicted a glorious amount of damage to the Imperialists before we chose to withdraw.

Below is a photograph of the Chinese armored train:


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## Lee Willis

Cool train. Even cooler story.

Thanks.


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## Vincent

Definitely better than the current batch of super-hero trains.


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## Nikola

Now that's cool!


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## Vincent

Someone did make a replica of the Bat Train, but it isn't motorized.


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## Vincent

Not sure what it is, but it makes an interesting static display.


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## flyernut

Vincent said:


> Not sure what it is, but it makes an interesting static display.


I've seen that one before, it's a wreck.


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Someone did make a replica of the Bat Train, but it isn't motorized.


That was the Batman / art style / Batmobile of my youth. Still my favorite. Thanks for posting!


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## Vincent

No! No! No! A thousand times, No!


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## Magic

Vincent, now that's cool.

Magic


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## Lee Willis

Yes indeed, fantastic. And accurate: large predatory pre-historic lizards know that passenger cars taste much better when they are nicely cooked over an open flame!


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## Fire21

Vincent said:


> Someone did make a replica of the Bat Train, but it isn't motorized.


Looks like a cool snowplow! Add some spreader wings on the sides. Put a motorized unit behind and push it like the real RRs do with their plows.


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## Vincent

They have studied the idea. Unfortunately, the temperature extremes on the moon would warp the rails. Vehicles with large wheels and four-wheel drive can be kept in shelters and would do the job better.


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## Fire21

Vincent said:


> Unfortunately, the temperature extremes on the moon would warp the rails.


As I was taught, the sunny side of the moon is always sunny, and the dark side is always dark. Therefore temps would tend to remain relatively constant. I'd think rails would set in shape and hold it. I also notice that is a cog railway...nothing important, just happened to notice that.


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## Old_Hobo

Fire21 said:


> As I was taught, the sunny side of the moon is always sunny, and the dark side is always dark


Only to us on earth....every time we have a new (no) moon, the sun is illuminating the far side.

Whoever taught you that should be let go.....but by now, they're probably dead.....:laugh:


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## Fire21

Well, I'll be darned. I looked it up and you're right. Live and learn! Chalk one up for the hobo! :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Old_Hobo

You mean *ANOTHER* one.....:laugh:


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## Lemonhawk

Confusion with Mercury, both begin with M.


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## Lee Willis

I had a Mercury like that once. The heater vent dampers on one side would not work. In winter it was always hot on one side of the car and cold on the other. That warped my wife's sense of humor.


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## Vincent

Having seen the magnificent model locomotives many of you have bought recently, I doubt that this one would be too popular.


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## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Having seen the magnificent model locomotives many of you have bought recently, I doubt that this one would be too popular.


Vincent, that is a cool little loco, like at many early mines. It would be nice as an On30 loco on a layout. I think there are models that are not far from it in that scale.

Speaking of weird locos, I would buy a model of this but in my case had to build it since no one sells a model: many early coal mines used locomotives without fireboxes. They had either large "boiler" tanks with steam in them, or (better) compressed air, so there would be no open flame and combustion inside the mine. This photo is from my layout but B&W, because I used it in my book _Veranda Turbine. _


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## Vincent

Lee, that was a good educational post. I like the model you built, as well.


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## ebtnut

The advantage with compressed air locos was relative simplicity. An air line could be run into the galleries alongside the track to recharge as necessary. Probably there were savings over the more usual electric tow motors common in the eastern coal fields. Fireless locos were more often used as normal yard switchers, especially in industries that produced sensitive products like chemicals or combustible gases. These engines had what looked like a big fat boiler becuase of extra insulation. They ran on superheated water which was supplied from the plant boilerhouse. Superheated water will flash to steam when the pressure is reduced, which is what happens when the throttle is opened.


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## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> The advantage with compressed air locos was relative simplicity. An air line could be run into the galleries alongside the track to recharge as necessary. Probably there were savings over the more usual electric tow motors common in the eastern coal fields. Fireless locos were more often used as normal yard switchers, especially in industries that produced sensitive products like chemicals or combustible gases. These engines had what looked like a big fat boiler becuase of extra insulation. They ran on superheated water which was supplied from the plant boilerhouse. Superheated water will flash to steam when the pressure is reduced, which is what happens when the throttle is opened.


Another fine educational post.


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## Vincent

This has become a popular thread elsewhere on this forum. The guy wants $4,500 US for it. It is a limited edition Lionel caboose honoring a toys buff convention. There never was a real caboose lettered like this.

Someone joked that he had bought some for $1 apiece and repainted them because they were so ugly. Another person pointed out that counterfeiting the original is not impossible.

So, would you buy it for $1? If you could, would you repaint it? If you could get it at a reasonable price (maybe $10?), would you buy it?


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## Vincent

Concerning the $4,500 caboose:

In my opinion any Lionel car that works is easily worth $1. I would unscrew the caboose and use it for a flatcar.


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## Massey

When I modeled HO scale I used to love finding unique commemorative cars. Prototype or not they were nice to see on the rails and brought some variety to the layout. Athearn used to (and maybe still does) offer a service of creating a run of special cars usually the per car cost was just slightly higher than a blue box kit. The cars were delivered in blue box kit form. I had several of these kits and they actually were the first cars to sell when I ebayed my HO stuff.


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## Lee Willis

The caboose is definitely worth $1, maybe a bit more ($2?), and I agree with Vincent, someone could put it to good use for that price.

But I would not buy it. I run mostly scale anymore and it isn't scale, or like the new, tiny Lionel disconnect cars, funky in any fun way. So I'd pass. But that's just me.

I'm one who expressed doubt about it being real. There are several reasons why I think so but regardless it is no worth anything like that to me. 

Of course, all the seller needs to find is one person who thinks it is.


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## Vincent

As my (British?) cousin Massey pointed out, those types of cars aren't that expensive to get produced. A novelty item like that is just not a valuable collectible.

But I would gladly pay $1 for it.


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## Vincent

As long as it doesn't come complete with the action figures...

The Oregon and California Railroad committed so much fraud with land sales that President Theodore Roosevelt indicted over 1,000 officials. Technically, the railroad still exists, although it was bought by Southern Pacific in 1927, forty years after Southern Pacific had assumed control.


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## ebtnut

In the collectibles world, the quality of the item is not necessarily the crietria - scarcity does come into play as well. If Lionel made, let's say, 500 of those models for the convention, and 498 of them have succumed to the dumpster in the past 40 years, then it may well be worth a significant amount to some collector. All it takes is one.


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## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> In the collectibles world, the quality of the item is not necessarily the crietria - scarcity does come into play as well. If Lionel made, let's say, 500 of those models for the convention, and 498 of them have succumed to the dumpster in the past 40 years, then it may well be worth a significant amount to some collector. All it takes is one.



You're making a valid point. But different organizations, such as the Franklin Mint, are famous for manufacturing rarities. There are exceptions, but they are generally a bad financial investment. If you LIKE them you got your money's worth.


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## Lee Willis

Of course, when the Franklin Mint advertises that it has made something "collectable" that doesn't mean it is valuable or rare, just that if you buy them you, too, can be a collector of that junk. It is unbelievable - truth that Barnum was right - there's a sucker born every minute. 

True story: Years ago, as an April Fools joke at work (at another company then) I made up a believable-looking Xerox of a full magazine page ad from the Franklin Mint for "Great Nuclear Explosions of the 20th Century" - miniature glow-in-the-dark model mushroom clouds celebrating great atomic and hydrogen bomb explosions. I posted it on our break-room bulletin board. You could collect the whole set of four-inch high commemorative Mushroom Clouds - Trinity, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Bikini Atoll, Joe 4, Chernobyl, and more . . . You could even subscribe to get one new one every three months or so - all delivered on an anniversary of the original actual explosion.

I had a co-worker who was really upset when he discovered the ad was fake and he couldn't subscribe to the collect the entire set.


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## Vincent

Yes, I would.


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## Old_Hobo

Well, get out your wallet!

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=424970&stc=1&d=1521571713


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## Vincent

Fascinating point, Old Hobo! Your photo shows a model of "The General," the legendary Confederate locomotive hijacked by Union raiders. It was part of the Western and Atlantic Railway, which still exists. Owned by the state of Georgia, parts of it are leased to other railroads.

It appears that my original photo, Old Hobo's photo, and this photo (of "The Commodore") are all the same type of locomotive.


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## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Fascinating point, Old Hobo! Your photo shows a model of "The General," the legendary Confederate locomotive hijacked by Union raiders. It was part of the Western and Atlantic Railway, which still exists. Owned by the state of Georgia, parts of it are leased to other railroads.
> 
> It appears that my original photo, Old Hobo's photo, and this photo (of "The Commodore") are all the same type of locomotive.


Pretty close, and close enough, but old Hobo's photo of the model has a fatter boiler near the cab than at the front, the other two are the same diameter throughout: the General Haupt (name on cabb) and Commodore (name on boiler) otherwise look like the same class. 
But all three are close enough to the right look, size, and period that I certainly would not care.

Below is my Lionel O-Gauge Lincoln Funeral Train model - a type General-class loco from the 1860s. I posted some time back about repainting it as just a regulator loco, rather than in the grand paint scheme it was wearing when it pulled Lincolns body back home to Illinois. I wanted a regular loco to run a lot when setting up the layout for the 19th century. 

Anyway, its very close to Vincent's two posted models, without the bigger boiler near the cab. Originally it had the big wide stack for wood burning cinder blocking, but I removed it and replaced it with a narrow coal-fired one. As near as I can tell its pretty much the same class and period.

So, yes, I would buy a model of this loco. I did!


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## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> It appears that my original photo, Old Hobo's photo, and this photo (of "The Commodore") are all the same type of locomotive.


Yep.....4-4-0 Americans!


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> As long as it doesn't come complete with the action figures...
> 
> The Oregon and California Railroad committed so much fraud with land sales that President Theodore Roosevelt indicted over 1,000 officials. Technically, the railroad still exists, although it was bought by Southern Pacific in 1927, forty years after Southern Pacific had assumed control.


That is awesome!


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## Vincent

It brings back good memories of the Good Humor man driving his truck through our neighborhood when I was a kid.

Good Humor claims to have invented both the popsicle and the ice cream truck.


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## Vincent

Yes! This magnificent monstrosity is one of four Mercury steam locomotives operated by the New York Central Railroad. Starting in 1936, the last one was retired in the 1970's, although it was no longer used as a streamliner.


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## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Yes! This magnificent monstrosity is one of four Mercury steam locomotives operated by the New York Central Railroad. Starting in 1936, the last one was retired in the 1970's, although it was no longer used as a streamliner.


Oh yes. Absolutely. Preferable Premier or Legacy with all the bells and whistles, literally!!


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## Vincent

I would definitely buy this one, although I can understand why most of you would not.


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## Fire21

LOL Vincent! Based on what I know of the people who frequent this forum, you'd probably be the ONLY one who would buy that! :laugh:


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## Vincent

Unfortunately, you can't. The fellow molded two engines together about thirty years ago and posted a photo of it recently.


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## Old_Hobo

So, do you know what kind of locos he spliced together?

I do......


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## Nikola

There's an awful lot of GG1 sitting right there....................


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## Old_Hobo

Except that those are two EMD BL2's spliced together....


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## RonthePirate

Vincent, I got to thinking for a minute, a dangerous thing.
I think all of the 4-4-0 American series is stemmed from the Jupiter, aren't they?
I know the Jupiter is the engine used in many period films, but was it the first or no?









EDIT: I just found the answer in further checking.
No it was not the first.
It was built in 1871.


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## Vincent

RonthePirate said:


> Vincent, I got to thinking for a minute, a dangerous thing.
> I think all of the 4-4-0 American series is stemmed from the Jupiter, aren't they?
> I know the Jupiter is the engine used in many period films, but was it the first or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: I just found the answer in further checking.
> No it was not the first.
> It was built in 1871.


Right you are, Ron. The Jupiter and the Jupiter line of locomotives were built after the Civil War, while the American line of locomotives served both sides during the Civil War.


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## Vincent

This is another kit-bash special I found on the internet.


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## ebtnut

I don't have my reference library handy at the moment, but the original Jupiter had to have been built prior to 1871 since the gold spike ceremony was in May, 1869. The loco in the photo above is of a modern recreation of the original. Both it and the companion No. 119 were built for the National Park Service to recreate the original ceremony. IIRC, the same company, Kloke, built at least two more similar locos, the Leviathan and the York. The latter runs regularly out of New Freedom, PA. Google Steam Into History on the web.


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## Fire21

ebtnut said:


> I don't have my reference library handy at the moment, but the original Jupiter had to have been built prior to 1871 since the gold spike ceremony was in May, 1869. The loco in the photo above is of a modern recreation of the original. Both it and the companion No. 119 were built for the National Park Service to recreate the original ceremony.


Here's a couple videos about building the Jupiter replica:


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## Vincent

I believe I would buy this one.


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## highvoltage

ebtnut said:


> I don't have my reference library handy at the moment, but the original Jupiter had to have been built prior to 1871 since the gold spike ceremony was in May, 1869...


Correct, it was built in September 1868:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(locomotive)


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## Colorado1445

I am on vacation right now and saw this. Wheels are at an angle in order to help it climb a mountain. Also it has a third cog rail.


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## Lee Willis

I don't have the Pikes Peak Loco (always wanted it, too - would love a model), but I have a big railroad cannon.


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## Vincent

Beautiful cannon, Lee. That'll teach the enemy not to attack your lay-out!


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## Magic

That rail gun is for the next incoming comet.

Magic


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## Vincent

Never! Never! Never!


----------



## Fire21

Hmmm, wonder if that's powered by a Mack diesel??


----------



## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> Never! Never! Never!


You couldn't buy that if you wanted to....that's photoshopped....hwell:

Show us stuff that's real.....


----------



## Vincent

Complete with champagne, expensive food, sex slaves--I mean "female conductors," Kim Jong Un (aka "The Fatty on the Train") has left North Korea for a secret visit to Beijing. 

His lavishly-furnished, bullet-proof train has become somewhat of an internet sensation.


----------



## 400E Blue Comet

I saw a picture of this one a long time ago. How about this strange little... Eh... "gem"?


----------



## Vincent

You can buy a model of this one.


----------



## Old_Hobo

But the question is, would YOU buy it......?


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> But the question is, would YOU buy it......?


I think that the skill involved would be beyond my level. But if the price was right...


----------



## flyernut

Vincent said:


> You can buy a model of this one.


I rode many a passenger train pulled by one of those.


----------



## Vincent

I don't think so. It looks like something I would put together.


----------



## Vincent

April 1, 2018

This incredibly accurate, intricately-detailed facsimile of the most famous locomotive on the GC Railway can now be yours for only $4,500. It comes complete with a large cave that nobody can find.

Tremendously complex, yet so simple that even a Boy Wonder can operate it, this rocket-powered device requires no electricity.

Start your bidding on e-Bay today!

April 1, 2018

PS. Happy Easter.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> April 1, 2018
> 
> This incredible accurate, intricately-detailed facsimile of the most famous locomotive on the GC Railway can now be yours for only $4,500. It comes complete with a large cave that nobody can find.
> 
> Tremendously complex, yet so simple that even a Boy Wonder can operate it, this rocket-powered device requires no electricity.
> 
> Start your bidding on e-Bay today!
> 
> April 1, 2018
> 
> PS. Happy Easter.


Something that rare, wow. That is a bargain.


----------



## Vincent

I can't identify it, but I think I would.


----------



## Old_Hobo

You'd buy a bashed up one like that?


----------



## Vincent

Heaven's No! But it does look like a nice locomotive. The large, detailed interior is interesting.


----------



## Fire21

My goodness, that's ugly! Interesting how they were using the ladder to raise the wire for clearance.


----------



## Vincent

Definitely! And that car as well.


----------



## Vincent

Yes! Yes! A thousand times Yes!

(Man has this given me a good idea for my lay-out.)


----------



## Vincent

No. And I don't care if it actually works in the bath tub.


----------



## Lee Willis

Well, it really does work in the bathtub. Also looks quite like some small research sub the Navy once had, although I forget which one.


----------



## Vincent

They made two of these Aeolus stainless steel locomotives before World War 2. The first was an upgrade to an already existing locomotive, while the other was built from the ground up.


----------



## Vincent

Well, it does have realistic weathering.


----------



## Lee Willis

authentic, and one of a kind! 

Definitely worth having.


----------



## Vincent

I think this guy overdid the weathering.


----------



## Lee Willis

I bet the prime-mover sound is kinda boring to listen to.


----------



## Larry Sr.

Would ya buy either one? Yes Yes.
Larry


----------



## Lemonhawk

Post #143 is for those that don't like DCC sound


----------



## Vincent

LarrySr., I would definitely like one of those.


----------



## Vincent

Great Western 1876


----------



## Vincent

Absolutely! And now, I need some assistance:

Around 1960, Lionel produced a half-hour long special (black and white) with marionettes. A friendly hobo on the Lionel Lines was being chased by a Lionel police officer. He tells his story to some sympathetic kids: two trains were about to crash, and he threw the switch in time to save them, and now Lionel was after him. Eventually the cop catches him, and informs him that Lionel had given him an award, and the police officer had been chasing the hobo in order to give him the award.
All attempts to find that special on YouTube, etc., have failed. Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Lemonhawk

I've always liked big drive wheels! What's the thing just behind the drive wheel that looks like its for sand -- but why after the drive wheel?


----------



## cramden

Vincent said:


> Absolutely! And now, I need some assistance:
> 
> Around 1960, Lionel produced a half-hour long special (black and white) with marionettes. A friendly hobo on the Lionel Lines was being chased by a Lionel police officer. He tells his story to some sympathetic kids: two trains were about to crash, and he threw the switch in time to save them, and now Lionel was after him. Eventually the cop catches him, and informs him that Lionel had given him an award, and the police officer had been chasing the hobo in order to give him the award.
> All attempts to find that special on YouTube, etc., have failed. Anyone have any ideas?


I think this is the one.


----------



## Vincent

Thank you, Cramden!

The videos of the 1960 Lionel trains were fantastic (I want that helicopter car). The plot was uhm, something that would impress a seven-year-old so much that he would remember it 58 years later.

I only saw it one time and didn't remember it exactly right, but it is an excellent film.


----------



## cramden

Vincent said:


> Thank you, Cramden!
> 
> The videos of the 1960 Lionel trains were fantastic (I want that helicopter car). The plot was uhm, something that would impress a seven-year-old so much that he would remember it 58 years later.
> 
> I only saw it one time and didn't remember it exactly right, but it is an excellent film.


Your welcome. I remember seeing this a few years ago while looking on you tube for something else. I think the puppets are kind of creepy looking.


----------



## Fire21

Lemonhawk said:


> I've always liked big drive wheels! What's the thing just behind the drive wheel that looks like its for sand -- but why after the drive wheel?


I'm curious about the drive mechanism...there appears to be no linkage to any of the wheels (that I can see).


----------



## Nikola

Fire21 said:


> I'm curious about the drive mechanism...there appears to be no linkage to any of the wheels (that I can see).


The crankshaft is part of the axle - mounted inside - no linkage to the wheels. The stroke of the cylinders is relatively short, so a 'small' crank throw does the job.


----------



## Fire21

Thank you, Nikola! Good info to know.


----------



## Homeless by Choice

Lemonhawk said:


> I've always liked big drive wheels! What's the thing just behind the drive wheel that looks like its for sand -- but why after the drive wheel?


*X2*

I noticed that yesterday and was wondering the same thing about a sand chute behind the drive wheel? I was thinking that maybe there was one ahead of the wheel that was hidden by the man: one for Forward direction and one for Reverse direction. There is that little light grey line just above his left shoe. Is that the end of the Forward sand chute?


----------



## Old_Hobo

Yes, it looks like there is a sand spout behind the man down by his left ankle, between his legs.....


----------



## ebtnut

I'm going to speculate that the device in question is a rail washer. Locos with huge drivers like those were notoriously slippery so a lot of sand was used. The residual sand on the rails added some drag, so some railroads did in fact wash the railheads off when using sand.


----------



## Vincent

Speaking of the Lionel Police Department:


----------



## Vincent

Starting in 1937, the Crusader had streamlined locomotives that ran from Pennsylvania to New Jersey for 45 years.


----------



## Vincent

Too stodgy-looking for me.


----------



## Vincent

With inflation, these four Lionel Monopoly cars would cost $427.65. That's not quite $107 per car. No way, Jose!


----------



## mopac

It does have free shipping !!!


----------



## Vincent

I'm afraid that I just don't get too impressed with these. If the price were low enough I would buy them.


----------



## Vincent

Found one more


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> I'm afraid that I just don't get too impressed with these...


But it seems like you are.


----------



## Vincent

highvoltage said:


> But it seems like you are.


 I regard them as interesting enough to look at; even to be aware that they actually exist. But I've never seen anyone post a picture of their Lionel Monopoly train, and I only found the information while researching something else.


----------



## Vincent

Thee was no Pennsylvania Power & Light railroad per se. Someone decided that it was dangerous to have coal-burning locomotives in power plants, so they used "fireless locomotives" powered by compressed air. They were safer and actually cheaper to operate if you were near a large stationary boiler to keep supplying compressed air to the switchyard.

The largest fireless locomotive ever built, this magnificent machine served for thirty years before being retired in 1969.

Although replaced by diesel or electric locomotives, fireless locomotives are making a small comeback. Diesel switchers are idle 90% of the time, but must keep their engines running, so sometimes a fireless locomotive is cheaper to operate.


----------



## ebtnut

A correction if I may. While there were compressed-air locomotives, engines like the one in the photo used superheated water from the plant boiler. Water at high pressure remains liquid until the pressure is reduced, when it flashes to steam. So these are in fact steam locomotives, with no firebox. A water charge could last a full shift, depending on the work needed. They were popular at electric generating stations and chemical plants. I've seen two that were still in service in the '70's - one at the Safe Harbor, PA generating station, and one at a power plant in Alexandria, VA. Heiser and Porter seem to have been the two primary builders of these locos.


----------



## Vincent

By George, ebtnut, you're correct. I had avoided stating that it was compressed air-powered because I couldn't find confirmation. But after reading your post, I went back and found one statement that it was powered by super-heated steam.
While we're here, I'll add this interesting photo of a PP&L locomotive that is not so famous:


----------



## ebtnut

Not sure about where that loco worked. The one at Safe Harbor, as I recall, was painted yellow but was on 0-4-0. It also had remote control. The one-man "crew" walked along with a hand-held radio controller. There were three lights mounted on the engine - green, yellow, red. I'm guessing that green was forward, yellow for reverse and red for brake.


----------



## Vincent

This would definitely make an interesting addition to a fleet of locomotives.


----------



## ebtnut

Just for those who are late to the game, that's a reconstruction of the first practical steam loco, built by Richard Trevethick in the UK. There's a youtube of this engine operating out there on the net.


----------



## Vincent

No. If nothing else, a bunch of Greeks might come out at night and burn my lay-out.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Now that is a cool locotive! A true Iron Horse!


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Now that is a cool locotive! A true Iron Horse!


Good one!


----------



## Vincent

No!!!!!!! Not if they gave it to me for free...Well, Okay, if they gave it to me for free and included several buckets of paint, I would take it.


----------



## Old_Hobo

I do believe there is a back story to this set....Lionel did this one to try to appeal to girls to get females into the hobby, but I understand they didn't sell a lot of them (very few, apparently). 

So Lionel had all these unsold sets, and they repainted the engines and cars, and made new sets from them.

So I do believe I've heard that these girls sets are very valuable on the collector circuit....

That's the story as I understood it, anyway....


----------



## Vincent

Actually, they are a well-made set. Bypassing the fact that it is a valuable collectors' item, a working transformer, power pack, and tracks would be worth taking for free.

But I am disappointed that nobody pointed out that I would not need several buckets to paint them.


----------



## Old_Hobo

But my point was....DON'T re-paint them! 

If you got it for free, you are very lucky. They are worth quite a bit of money, as the remaining sets are pretty rare, because Lionel themselves re-painted what didn't sell....

You could buy several working transformers, power packs, and tracks for that amount....the question would be, do you want to own that rare set, or do you want to play with trains?


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> But my point was....DON'T re-paint them!


Oh, I don't want several buckets of paint to repaint them.


I want to drown them!


----------



## Vincent

I don't think so. It looks like something that someone like me assembled.


----------



## Vincent

Japan's 9600 series of locomotives were manufactured from 1913 to 1939, according to contradictory sources. Japan's first mass-produced locomotive, they were heavily exported to Taiwan and China. During WW2, some of them were seized and then re-seized. About 770 were made, not counting the ones rebuilt from scrap and spare parts.


----------



## Vincent

Japan's D50 series were manufactured from 1923 to 1931. Of the 380 made, many were sold to China and were seized and then re-seized in WW2. Communist China retired the last one in 1955.


----------



## Old_Hobo

> Would you buy a model of this?


No.....Japanese locomotives had a gauge of 3' 6", and I don't have a layout with that gauge......


----------



## ebtnut

Acutally, you might have a layout with 42" gauge. If you're in HO, HO guage track scales out to essentially 42" gauge in S scale. That's how the Aussies do it.


----------



## Vincent

Old Hobo is correct. At the time, Japanese railroads had a narrower gauge than the world-wide standard. The locomotives they sold to China were modified for Chinese railroads, which followed the world-wide standard.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Old Hobo is correct. At the time, Japanese railroads had a narrower gauge than the world-wide standard. The locomotives they sold to China were modified for Chinese railroads, which followed the world-wide standard.


To think that some old Roman would establish a standard that has held for thousands of years.


----------



## Vincent

Nikola said:


> To think that some old Roman would establish a standard that has held for thousands of years.


We Italians have always been great thinkers.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Some old Roman? 

Hardly.....it was the width of a horse's a__ that determined the width of the track.....:laugh: Chariot wheels wore grooves in the roads, and that was it.....


----------



## Vincent

No, No, no. Unless I lived near some abandoned tracks where the police can't see me; then I would buy a real one.


----------



## Fire21

Old_Hobo said:


> Some old Roman?
> 
> Hardly.....it was the width of a horse's a__ that determined the width of the track.....:laugh: Chariot wheels wore grooves in the roads, and that was it.....


I'm guessing it WAS some old Roman who built chariots who decided he was going to build all of them with the same width of wheels. Others copied. I'm sure they didn't have inches back then...that's how we came up with four feet eight and ONE-HALF inches!


----------



## Vincent

"Fecero, fingi a railroad semita!" Gauis Lionel Locomotus

Ancient inscription discovered on an abandoned train trestle.


----------



## Nikola

Old_Hobo said:


> Some old Roman?
> 
> Hardly.....it was the width of a horse's a__ that determined the width of the track.....:laugh: Chariot wheels wore grooves in the roads, and that was it.....


Of course it was a Roman. A Roman smart enough to decide that the wheels should be set far enough apart so that they did not roll though the you-know-what.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Roman my butt cheeks......



> Chariots seem to have originated in Mesopotamia in the third millennium BCE. The highly mobile two-wheeled war chariot carrying a driver and an archer armed with a short compound bow revolutionized military tactics after 1700 BCE. This expensive weapon spread throughout the Middle East and is thought to have reached Egypt with the Hyksos who took over Lower Egypt, though there is no factual evidence to support this view. It spread into Asia Minor, Greece and was known in Northern Europe by 1500 BCE. With the advent of cavalry riding on horseback it lost most of its military importance by 1000 BCE.
> The Egyptian chariot betrayed its Asiatic origin in a number of ways, by the names of its parts which were Semitic and by its decorations which often took the form of date palm branches or animals opposing each other, both Syrian motifs.


http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/chariot.htm


----------



## Vincent

Incidentally, railroad tracks are supposed to be the width of two horses, not one.


----------



## Vincent

Two healthy people diving into milk. I think I'll pass.


----------



## Nikola

Old_Hobo said:


> Roman my butt cheeks......
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/chariot.htm


The Romans standardized the gauge. :laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Definitely. I just finished a beautiful cardstock building for my empire, but it doesn't look as good as this one.


----------



## Vincent

Yes. I mean, it's interesting.


----------



## Vincent

Probably not.


----------



## Vincent

"Doom Express. Gothic Electric Train Collection." This is even weirder than the Peanuts Halloween train.


----------



## Lee Willis

Oh yes! I would definitely buy a model of this!!!

Does anyone know if there is an O-gauge model of this. I know they've been made in HO, but I can't find one in O.


----------



## Vincent

Hit with the sudden increase in railway volume due to the war, Australia built 12 of these magnificent locomotives themselves. Production went from 1943 to 1947, with the last ones retired in the early 1960's.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, but only one.


----------



## Lee Willis

Oh yes!!! Vincent, you gotta have a T1.


----------



## Vincent

This bizarre Russian "mallet" locomotive is actually a good idea. After high-pressure steam turns the driving wheels, some of it is still not liquefied. This re-cycled steam is then used to drive a second set of drive wheels. The second set could be in front of or behind the main drive wheels. Sometimes, the second set was on the tender.

After WW2, trying to compete with diesel, some US railroads built powerful mallet locomotives.


----------



## ebtnut

OK, let's get our terminology straight - a "mallet" is an articulated locootive - two engines under one boiler. The original mallets were compounds, using high-pressure steam in one set of cylinders, then exhausting that steam into a second, larger set of cylinders to make use of the remaining steam energy. The loco pictured is not a mallet. It is hard to tell from the pic, but it is possible it may be a three- or four cylinder compound Ten-Wheeler, but it is not an articulated loco. Compounding was popular in Europe but pretty much fell out of favor in the U.S. with the adoption of the superheater. A lot of compound articulateds were built for heavy freight service and many lasted till the end of steam, but by the 1920's boiler designs had advanced to the point where most articulateds were built "simple", high pressure steam going to all four cylinders. The Norfolk and Western held out with it's Y classes of 2-8-8-2 compounds, but they also built the simple 2-6-6-4 Class A's for high-speed freight service.


----------



## Vincent

Excellent article, ebtnut. Alas, the previous photo is one of 463 Fita class mallet locomotives built in Russia between 1899 and 1924.

In 1949, the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad accepted the last new mallet locomotive in the US.

Jumping ahead to tomorrow's picture, this mallet locomotive was operating in Arizona around 1913-1914, and YES I would love to buy a model of it!


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Excellent article, ebtnut. Alas, the previous photo is one of 463 Fita class mallet locomotives built in Russia between 1899 and 1924.
> 
> In 1949, the Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad accepted the last new mallet locomotive in the US.
> 
> Jumping ahead to tomorrow's picture, this mallet locomotive was operating in Arizona around 1913-1914, and YES I would love to buy a model of it!




You can buy a great O-Gauge model of that. Rather costly. Lionel Vision 3000. Original catalog price was $2500. Here is mine, bought a few years later for a tiny bit less. Very cool loco, and actually worth the money, with great sound, good lights, smoke, etc., and with a swinging bell, blow-down, and whistle steam. Plus of course, all those drivers . . . .


----------



## Ace

Vincent said:


> Hit with the sudden increase in railway volume due to the war, Australia built 12 of these magnificent locomotives themselves. Production went from 1943 to 1947, with the last ones retired in the early 1960's.


This 520 class certainly looked impressive but they were actually lightweight, only 16.1 ton axle load, and capable of operating on many branch lines. Their design and appearance has obvious American influence. They run on 5'3" broad gauge of which the mileage is diminishing with abandonments and conversions to standard gauge.

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Australian_Railways_520_class

The 520 class locomotives were noted for their impressive displays of power and speed. They featured specially balanced driving wheels that while only 66 inches (1,676 mm) in diameter, were designed for 70-mile-per-hour (113 km/h) operation, and were also the first locomotives in Australia to feature Timken roller bearings on all axles._


----------



## Lee Willis

They look cool. I've never seen an O-Gauge model of one. It would be nice to have.


----------



## Vincent

Pre-Communist Russia. No wonder their government fell.


----------



## ebtnut

*ATSF Flexible Boiler*


----------



## ebtnut

OK, can't seem to get the pic to download off the web, but Santa Fe had a couple of 2-6-6-2's built by Baldwin with flexible boilers. Not successful.


----------



## Fire21

I wonder how they felt a pressurized flexible boiler would ever work? The flex part would have to be so thick as to be non-flexible! At least it seems it would have to be.


----------



## Vincent

Flexible boiler? I had to look that one up.

The problem was that a larger boiler made the locomotive too long to go around tight curves. The solution was to make the main drive wheels in the back rigid, while the front drive wheels (which were also steam -powered) pivoted.

The flexible part only transferred super-heated gas to the front drive wheels. Other improvements followed, and the railroads were able to have the gigantic mallet locomotives we see in these pictures.


----------



## ebtnut

I am given to understand that the flex portion involved a series of slightly tapered telescoping spring steel rings that could slide back and forth while maintaining a good seal. The development of reliable flexible pipe joints and better design engineering made big articulateds practical.


----------



## Lee Willis

ebtnut said:


> I am given to understand that the flex portion involved a series of slightly tapered telescoping spring steel rings that could slide back and forth while maintaining a good seal. The development of reliable flexible pipe joints and better design engineering made big articulateds practical.


Actually, most all successful articulated locos had solid, not flexible boilers. Santa Fe's flexible boilers - and they tried several types - did not work out. Their results were all sufficiently bad flops that it convinced the industry to abandon the idea, period. 

What was articulated about subsequent articulated locos like the big Mallets Santa Fe and USRA built, and all the Challengers, Big Boys, Yellowstones, etc., was just the sets of drivers, the front set turning under the boiler, while the rear did not. This is why you have so much boiler stick out on our models of articulated locos going around curves. 

The Allegheny, Big Boy and all the Yellowstones, etc., had one piece unflexible boilers. They had flexible pipes leading steam to their front cylinders, which was enough of a challenge to build.

The photos below are from Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, page 274 and show four of Santa Fe's flexible boiler experiments. In each photo it is easy to pick out the "felxible" part. Realize it was not that flexible - it could bend only a few degrees. 1171 had a sort of bellows like arrangement that could bend slightly like a vacuum cleaner hose, 1196 had a set of ring seals as was mentioned above. Both were rebuilt with several different types of seals as experiments, then finally installed with solid boilers, or broken up and used for parts. 3321 had a sort of compromise design combining both ideas, beloows and rings. It failed too. The lower photo is of #3200, a second attempt which had a "joint boiler" - somehow split into two parts, I'm not sure just how. It didn't work out either. 

The flexible boiler just didn't work out, even at the 200 lb pressure they used back then. It definitely would have given problems with the pressures used later on in the 1940. But it was a cool idea, I respect Santa Fe for having the guts to try, and I'd love to have a model of any off these locos.


----------



## Vincent

Lee writes "The flexible boiler just didn't work out, even at the 200 lb pressure they used back then... But it was a cool idea, I respect Santa Fe for having the guts to try, and I'd love to have a model of any off these locos. "

Good quote. IMHO, flexible boilers were a reasonable attempt to make steam locomotives that were better than diesels.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Lee writes "The flexible boiler just didn't work out, even at the 200 lb pressure they used back then... But it was a cool idea, I respect Santa Fe for having the guts to try, and I'd love to have a model of any off these locos. "
> 
> Good quote. IMHO, flexible boilers were a reasonable attempt to make steam locomotives that were better than diesels.


I'm not sure they would have been better than diesels, or even as good as boilers with super-heaters and much more pressure, as developed after WWI, but they would have been good locos. 

And the flexible boiler locos did work, they just gave constant maintenance problems: that was what did them in. 

But I agree, it was reasonable to try. Santa Fe really had to, because it wasn't obvious it would fail: nothing ventured, nothing gained. And Santa Fe no doubt learned a lot that contributed to its later successes.


----------



## Vincent

Here are some pre-Soviet Russian locomotives. The first one is a model of Russia's first locomotive--it was rejected in favor of horses, even though it worked.


----------



## Vincent

Officially, the Chessie System was only a holding company. But their napping cat logo was a hit.


----------



## Vincent

No.

I took this off another thread, and Yes, there really is such a thing. But if I had it on my lay-out, nobody would believe me.


----------



## Vincent

no, No, NO!


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> Yes, there really is such a thing. But if I had it on my lay-out, nobody would believe me.


The best thing you can do if people are going to be seeing your layout is to find a photo of the real thing and show it to them. Pictures hanging on the walls are easy to point out if anyone gets uppity! LOL

I've considered doing this on some scenery details...things that are real but hard to believe.


----------



## Vincent

If the price were low enough...


----------



## Old_Hobo

Nope.....:smilie_daumenneg:


----------



## Murv2

I really wish there were a true Mother Hubbard in HO, not just another Camelback. The Civil War era B&O 0-8-0's come to mind.


----------



## Vincent

Murv2 said:


> I really wish there were a true Mother Hubbard in HO, not just another Camelback. The Civil War era B&O 0-8-0's come to mind.


Great post, Murv. The terms "Camel," "Camelback," and "Mother Hubbard" are sometimes used interchangeably. They all refer to a locomotive with the cab in the middle, over the boiler. The idea behind this dangerous design was to put more weight in the driving wheels and give the engineer a better view.


----------



## Vincent

Murv2 said:


> I really wish there were a true Mother Hubbard in HO, not just another Camelback. The Civil War era B&O 0-8-0's come to mind.


No luck on finding B& O Mother Hubbards. Can you post some photos?

Meanwhile, the largest Mother Hubbard ever built, a track inspector, and a model that I would definitely buy:


----------



## ebtnut

I don't believe there has ever been an HO model of a B&O Camel. Max Grey imported a brass version in O scale back in the late '60's or so, and there is a company that has also done Camels in O scale in recent years (I think they might be P48). Camelbacks, or Mother Hubbards, came later after Wootton perfected the wide firebox to burn anthracite coal. The extra width forced the cab up onto the boiler, leaving the fireman at the back end of the boiler. A lot of those locos were equipped with a sort of metal canopy over the back deck to keep a bit of the weather off the fireman.


----------



## DennyM

This would be interesting to run. The Schienenzeppelin prop driven loco made by the Germans in 1929.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Is that the front or the back?


----------



## Lee Willis

DennyM said:


> This would be interesting to run. The Schienenzeppelin prop driven loco made by the Germans in 1929.
> 
> View attachment 444753


Somebody makes this propeller drive whatever it is in O-Gauge - I've seen a model of it. I think the prop is downsized (made smaller diameter so it does not hit and tear up things (on the one I saw it had a motor tuning it pretty fast). I think it was a German model.
-------------------------
The propellor is at the back. Note the two photos show it with both a two and four bladed prop. I think it was mainly an experiment to test the idea and various things like what prop would be best, etc.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I suspect the 4-bladed one would be best. At the speeds they'd be moving, they need to move a LOT of air, but the velocity isn't a major issue. 

I wouldn't want to be left on the platform when that think moved out, imagine the hurricane force winds it would generate if you were too close! Think about Saint Martin Airport and the folks that hang on the fence at the beach to the "thrill" of the jet blast.


----------



## Lee Willis

Of course, this guy would give you even a bigger blast.


----------



## Lemonhawk

It looks like the propeller would sweep thru passenger standing at the edge of the platform! Big question is, could it get the train started? I may have been a "hybrid".


----------



## Old_Hobo

*Schienenzeppelin Locomotive*

Compressed air driving the propeller.....safety concerns were an issue.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schienenzeppelin


----------



## Murv2

Vincent said:


> Great post, Murv. The terms "Camel," "Camelback," and "Mother Hubbard" are sometimes used interchangeably. They all refer to a locomotive with the cab in the middle, over the boiler. The idea behind this dangerous design was to put more weight in the driving wheels and give the engineer a better view.


I believe though that a Mother Hubbard has the cab sitting on top of the boiler while the Camelback has it astride the boiler. IOW in a Mother Hubbard you can walk from one side of the cab to the other, not a Camelback. If you enter "0-8-0 Camel" into google images There are tons of cool pictures and diagrams. Apparently they were fairly common at the beginning of the Civil War. I just bought two junk Americans, I'm aiming for either an 0-8-0 Mother Hubbard or try to convert one to the Yonah. Ooh, there's another I'd like to see.


----------



## Lee Willis

How about this. Other than the UP 9000s, the only loco ever built in the US with twelve drivers in a non-articulated format. 1863. Only one built. It was, to coin a phrase, a real Mother . . .


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> No luck on finding B& O Mother Hubbards. Can you post some photos?
> 
> Meanwhile, the largest Mother Hubbard ever built, a track inspector, and a model that I would definitely buy:


In photo #1, why would it need those huge cylinders with such small drivers? Was this an exceptionally low-pressure loco?


----------



## Vincent

Nikola said:


> In photo #1, why would it need those huge cylinders with such small drivers? Was this an exceptionally low-pressure loco?


Tough question, Nikola. Wikipedia reports that they actually built three of them, and they were the largest locomotives in the world at the time. They served 23 years before being replaced by bigger locomotives.

The best answer I can find is that they were primarily used as "pushers" in mountainous areas, and did not operate over 30 mph. The smaller wheels would have given them more power at lower speeds.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Tough question, Nikola. Wikipedia reports that they actually built three of them, and they were the largest locomotives in the world at the time. They served 23 years before being replaced by bigger locomotives.
> 
> The best answer I can find is that they were primarily used as "pushers" in mountainous areas, and did not operate over 30 mph. The smaller wheels would have given them more power at lower speeds.


That makes sense. The boiler is also huge. That betty is producing and using large volumes of steam. Shot hauls, a lot of tractive effort, and low gearing. A veritable rail tugboat.


----------



## DennyM

Murv and Lee, it would be very cool if someone made a o gauge version of them.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

No surprise that safety was a concern, that seems obvious just by looking at it!


----------



## Vincent

Ah...No.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Now that's a log train!


----------



## ebtnut

Re: The Erie 0-8-8-0 cylinders, the locos were true Mallet compounds. High-pressure steam direct from the boiler was first fed to the rear cylinders. When exhausted, the steam was directed to the front cylinders. Becuase it had less energy, the front cylinders were increased in size to compensate and be compatible with the high-pressure cylinders. Probably the last compounds built in the U.S. were the N&W's Y-6b's in the early 1950's. They filled a particular niche for the road when all other modern articulateds were "simple", using high pressure steam in all cylinders.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Something like this one.


----------



## DennyM

Maybe the Flintstones will run it Vincent. _That_ is nice John.


----------



## Vincent

Nice-looking set, GunrunnerJohn. I'm afraid that it does look better than my log train set.


----------



## Vincent

Definitely. But there is some question about the year.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That was my bargain of last year, I have a total of $625 invested in it.


----------



## Vincent

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That was my bargain of last year, I have a total of $625 invested in it.


Am I correct in saying that it was made in 1945? How could Lionel have made such an obvious error on the date? And when you got your 72-year-old prize, how well did it run?


----------



## Old_Hobo

There is a BLT date on the boxcar's side, lower right: 10-96

So, was this a replica car, painted to depict Christmas 1945 (but mis-lettered 19945) that was made in 10-96?


----------



## highvoltage

Old_Hobo said:


> There is a BLT date on the boxcar's side, lower right: 10-96
> 
> So, was this a replica car, painted to depict Christmas 1945 (but mis-lettered 19945) that was made in 10-96?


That's Lionel's stock number, the entire number is 6-19945. Here's a link:


http://www.grahamstrains.com/store/Lionel-6-19945-Christmas-1996-Boxcar.html


----------



## Old_Hobo

So that boxcar was made in 1996, not 1945.....so rather than a "72 year old prize", it is a 22 year old car.....selling for $25.00.....doesn't seem to be anything too special.....

Weird to put the stock number right on the car.....


----------



## highvoltage

Old_Hobo said:


> ...Weird to put the stock number right on the car...


I have a postwar Lionel NYC boxcar with 6464900 on the side just under the "NYC" logo. Don't know if this was common or not.


----------



## Old_Hobo

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That was my bargain of last year, I have a total of $625 invested in it.


Of course, John was talking about that steam engine, and not the boxcar......


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Yep, I doubt I'd pay that much for a boxcar!  Now, a locomotive with an MSRP of $2000 with an extra tender, $625 seemed to be a pretty good deal.


----------



## Vincent

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That was my bargain of last year, I have a total of $625 invested in it.


Man, I'm glad that you weren't talking about the 1996 Christmas boxcar. Now, $4,500 for a caboose I can understand.


----------



## Vincent

I think I would.


----------



## Vincent

Definitely


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Vincent said:


>


This is as close as I can get...


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> Definitely


I love the colored steamers, like the old days of the Jupiter. Did they mostly go black because of the grimy operation of steamers? Or was it like the Model T...any color so long as it's black?


----------



## DennyM

Most certainly that Reading & Northern.

John, is that a version of a DD1?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Denny, it's the BB1, apparently the little brother of the DD1. The BB1 was a later design using AC motors, the DD1 was a DC locomotive.


----------



## Vincent

Fire21 said:


> I love the colored steamers, like the old days of the Jupiter. Did they mostly go black because of the grimy operation of steamers? Or was it like the Model T...any color so long as it's black?


There was more than one reason.

After most locos had switched from wood to coal the surface was too hot for paint to keep its color. Black paint was made without so many pigments and could withstand the heat better.

Black paint hides dirt and soot better, cutting cleaning costs. One poster told of seeing a red, white, and blue liberty steam loco coming out of a tunnel, and the white parts looked terrible.

Because of its lack of pigmentation, black paint lasts longer and costs less to manufacture.


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> ...Because of its lack of pigmentation, black paint lasts longer and costs less to manufacture.


Dyes, paint pigments, and ink follow the subtractive color model. In subtractive colors black is the combination of all the basic colors.

The opposite would be the additive color model. In additive colors white is the combination of all the basic colors (think TV screens).


----------



## Vincent

I also have my own theory, which I cannot find (pro or con) on the web: Black paint makes a steam locomotive run better.

Because black absorbs more of the Sun's energy, it is hotter. This free heat source would slightly decrease the amount of coal required.


----------



## Old_Hobo

....by about 2 pieces of coal.....:laugh:

Black wouldn't help in the winter, especially up here in Canada (-30)....


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> ....
> 
> Black wouldn't help in the winter, especially up here in Canada (-30)....


Yes, it would.

Decades ago, it was about 15 degrees out when we got into my black-roofed car. It was so warm that we had to take our coats off.


----------



## Old_Hobo

We're talking about a 383 degree (F) boiler....being heated up appreciably by the sun in winter? 

I guess if one wants to believe, then they will believe.....hwell:


----------



## ebtnut

With all that insulation surrounding the boiler, I doubt that the paint color would have any impact. What might have a tiny bit of impact is long stretches of hot weather heating up the water in the lineside tanks, meaning less energy to boil the water.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Vincent said:


> I also have my own theory, which I cannot find (pro or con) on the web: Black paint makes a steam locomotive run better.
> 
> Because black absorbs more of the Sun's energy, it is hotter. This free heat source would slightly decrease the amount of coal required.


And in the cold weather, black dissipates the heat better, so the steam locomotive run poorly in cold weather. :laugh:

I doubt that has much effect either way, I'm sure it's more the maintenance aspects of the paint color.


----------



## Old_Hobo

So now we've heard the real story.....


----------



## Lee Willis

Actually, guys, you all have it wrong. It is purely a sub-atomic, quantum level effect, and it ads a small bit of power to the loco. 

What happens is that the black paint makes certain less educated sub-atomic particles, a class of particle named morons, think that a black loco is a black hole, so they head toward it because they have been told, that's what you do when there is a black hole nearby. Thye fall into the loco, and they add more energy to its boiler (this is why they are called more-ons) and so the loco's boiler runs hotter and the loco runs faster. 

I knew someday that grade I got in Quantum Mechanics in college would come in handy.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Lee Willis said:


> I knew someday that grade I got in Quantum Mechanics in college would come in handy.


Sad to say, this ain't the day!


----------



## Fire21

Fire21 said:


> I love the colored steamers, like the old days of the Jupiter. Did they mostly go black because of the grimy operation of steamers? Or was it like the Model T...any color so long as it's black?


I guess I should say thank you for all the answers, but they did get a bit carried away. So who knows where truth stopped and fiction began?  :laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Although I am impressed by the deeply scientific thought that has gone into my theory, I had never heard that black dissipates heat better. However it is true.

On a non-steam-powered motor, black paint would make it very slightly cooler than another color, ASSUMING THAT THERE IS NO SUNLIGHT.

If the motor is not running, black paint will make it noticeably warmer if there is sunlight.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That's why a majority of electronic component heatsinks are black, it dissipates heat better than other colors.


----------



## DennyM

Lee, you crack me up.:laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Lee Willis said:


> Actually, guys, you all have it wrong. It is purely a sub-atomic, quantum level effect, and it ads a small bit of power to the loco.
> 
> 
> I knew someday that grade I got in Quantum Mechanics in college would come in handy.


I'm afraid to ask what the grade was.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> I'm afraid to ask what the grade was.


If the professors see this thread, he will probably go back and change it to an F, that is for sure!


----------



## ebtnut

Gotta say, LOL


----------



## Vincent

Anyway, now I now why my theory (that black paint makes a steam locomotive run a little bit better) cannot be confirmed on the web.


----------



## Vincent

Taken around 1910, this is a "classic" photograph of a passenger observation locomotive on the New York Central Railroad.


----------



## RonthePirate

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That's why a majority of electronic component heatsinks are black, it dissipates heat better than other colors.


I learned not to argue with you awhile ago, John. Got tired of losing!
This isn't an argument, just a question.
If that was true, wouldn't they make everything that needed heat dissipated black?
I was always taught that black held heat.

EDIT: Completely off subject, but I thought some of you may like to know.
VegasN of Betzville called me. He's working just a half-hour from me here in Arizona.
He's alive and doing OK. He did take most of his trains along.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Fire21 said:


> Or was it like the Model T...any color so long as it's black?


Apparently, that quote was actually a myth, but true depending on when he said it:



> Part of the enduring myth of the Model T is that all of them were black. “Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants,” Ford described his policy in his 1922 book My Life and Work, “so long as it is black.” It’s true that the Ford Motor Company turned black paint into a science, using 30 different types of black paint for different parts of the car’s exterior.
> 
> But when the Model T first came on the market, customers could get almost any common color… *except* for black! Blue, gray, green, and red were all available, but not black. The first black Model T didn’t roll off the assembly line until five years later. Towards the end of the Model T’s life, six new colors were introduced, from Royal Maroon to Phoenix Brown to Highland Green. In between, it’s true, there was over a decade of monochromatic Model T’s. Some have said that Henry Ford made the switch to black paint because it dried faster, but history suggests it was just an efficiency issue: black paint was cheap and durable, and turning out only one color of car cheaper still.


https://www.woot.com/blog/post/the-debunker-did-the-model-t-ford-only-come-in-black


----------



## Old_Hobo

RonthePirate said:


> This isn't an argument, just a question.
> If that was true, wouldn't they make everything that needed heat dissipated black?
> I was always taught that black held heat


yes, John is right, and here's why:



> It's been said that black is actually the best color for dissipating heat from the engine. This statement is true, here's why:
> 
> The reason black paint dissipates heat more than any other color is that black is the most capably dissipative color for infra-red (heat) wavelengths. As we all know, back is very absorbent when energy rays (visible AND invisible) such as sunlight hit it. It is also able to cast off the most heat energy, all of its radiation being in the infra-red part of the energy wavelength spectrum. Single colors tend to focus their ability to both absorb AND dissipate in the wavelength of their color, and far less in the infra-red compared to black. One last thing about black: It absorbs energy better than it dissipates it, which is likely why the effect of black dissipating heat is less known. Also, since it absorbs far better than it dissipates (as do all colors), it has a net gain, for example when your black car sits in the sun, until an equilibrium is reached depending on the heated body's ability to be cooled (like with a fender or hood, by the surrounding air). The ambient temperature of the air around the black fender keeps it from heating beyond a certain range. I hope this helps explain the "I don't know why" of black paint being a better cooler for engines. The effect won't be much, and might not even be noticeable unless closely monitored, but it is a fact.
> 
> Black radiates heat in the infra-red spectrum better than other colors, which tend to "specialize" by radiating less efficiently in the infra-red and more in just their color portion of the spectrum


----------



## highvoltage

RonthePirate said:


> I learned not to argue with you awhile ago, John. Got tired of losing!
> This isn't an argument, just a question.
> If that was true, wouldn't they make everything that needed heat dissipated black?
> I was always taught that black held heat...


Black absorbs the sun's rays, that's why outside black surfaces are hotter than others during a sunny day.


----------



## Vincent

Henry Ford probably did say that Model T's would only come in black but they didn't do it until later. Because black paint dries faster, the assembly line could move faster if only black paint were used.

But exceptions were made and the 15 millionth Model T was green.

It is possible that Ford believed it was a good idea, but he realized that it would decrease sales.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Actually he went to black to INCREASE sales & build them faster, because at that time, Ford was losing ground to the other car makers......


----------



## Lee Willis

Fun stuff.

I wrote about model Ts sometime last year in the weely Friday Automobiles Trucks and Buses for O-Gauge in that forum. In researching their history, I read that the pigments used in colored paint back then, nearly two decades before Duco paints were invented, made colored paints dry much slower - it took days longer for them to dry. So he went to only black - no other colors available. 
He lost sales to those that had to have blue, green, etc., but he was selling every car he could make so he went to only black managed to crank out and sell a few percent more. He went to black in two steps. For two years just the fenders had to be black - having the fender dry fasert sped his production up quite a bit. But he went to all black to squeeze that final bit out of production capacity. He stuck with black until just a few years before the model A, when the T was long in the tooth and sales were starting to lag and fell below his production capacity for the first time in over a decade. Then he updated the styling to what is often called the "A minus" in '24 (they were Ts but looked very Model A like, many people mistake them for As) and offered colors again, in the hopes it would increase. They did, at bit. Here is the page from my posting then, on ". . . as long as it was black . . "


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

highvoltage said:


> Black absorbs the sun's rays, that's why outside black surfaces are hotter than others during a sunny day.


Correct, the effect works both ways. It absorbs heat the fastest, and it also dissipates the heat fastest. It just depends on the surrounding temperature.

Why is black the best emitter?


----------



## Vincent

I would need a low price. Plus I would like to know what "N.A.RC." stands for.


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> I would need a low price. Plus I would like to know what "N.A.RC." stands for.


C'mon Vincent, everyone knows what a NARC is! :laugh:


----------



## Old_Hobo

Isn't that a Mexican drug train? :laugh:


----------



## ebtnut

The fireless loco is from the North American Rayon Corporation in Elizabethton, TN. It is stuffed and mounted along with a couple of Tweetsie narrow gauge cars in town. The Tweetsie served the plant with both narrow and standard gauge track until the 3 foot was abandoned in the late '40's. I believe the plant shut down in the '70's.


----------



## Lee Willis

Rayon? That's another sub-atomic particle like electrons and protons and morons, isn't it?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Lee Willis said:


> Rayon? That's another sub-atomic particle like electrons and protons and morons, isn't it?


You're getting punchy lately Lee, I think it's time to lay off the strong glue!


----------



## highvoltage

Lee Willis said:


> Rayon? That's another sub-atomic particle like electrons and protons and morons, isn't it?


I thought rayon was used to capture rays.


Just like krypton was used to capture krypts.


Nylon was used to capture nyls.


Boron was used to capture bores.


Argon was used to capture args.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, it's real. No, I wouldn't buy one--everyone would think it isn't real.


----------



## Old_Hobo

That shouldn't bother you.....

But I would buy one....they certainly are real:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garratt


----------



## ebtnut

I always felt it was too bad someone in the U.S. didn't try a Garrett. I think they're pretty neat. There is one operating Garrett in the states, on a private estate in Texas. It's 2-foot gauge and came from South Africa. I believe Zimbabwe has a few still operating in Africa.


----------



## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> I always felt it was too bad someone in the U.S. didn't try a Garrett. I think they're pretty neat. There is one operating Garrett in the states, on a private estate in Texas. It's 2-foot gauge and came from South Africa. I believe Zimbabwe has a few still operating in Africa.


A magnificent locomotive indeed, Ebtnut. The Garratts had a large boiler with steam engines on each end, driving two sets of wheels.

The wheels and their engines could turn, giving the train the ability to use narrow curves. This allowed railroads to add more powerful locomotives to already-existing lines.

Although popular around the world, they were rejected by North American railroads.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Vincent said:


> The wheels and their engines could turn, giving the train the ability to use narrow curves. This allowed railroads to add more powerful locomotives to already-existing lines.
> 
> Although popular around the world, they were rejected by North American railroads.


We have a big country, lots of room for gentle curves. No need for such nonsense.


----------



## Lemonhawk

But you would still have on your O scale layout if you could GRJ!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

OK, you got me there.  I love the odd and unusual stuff, so it's a natural fit.


----------



## Vincent

gunrunnerjohn said:


> We have a big country, lots of room for gentle curves. No need for such nonsense.



Valid point. The Garratts were often used on narrow gauge railroads. But US railroads solved the problem by having two locos pull the train.


----------



## DennyM

I would run one on my layout or the club layout.


----------



## Lee Willis

I think many of the South African Garrets were well design locos, and quite good. 

But they look as if someone deliberately set out to design an ugly locomotive, so no, not on my layout.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Lee Willis said:


> But they look as if someone deliberately set out to design an ugly locomotive...


And succeeded I might add!


----------



## Vincent

The one in the foreground--YES! The one in the background--no big deal.


----------



## Vincent

No. Not even I would buy this one.


----------



## Vincent

Supposedly, Jobbees will still have it in stock on Tuesday when we go there.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, but I still can't figure out what the flaps in front are supposed to do.


----------



## J.Albert1949

_"I still can't figure out what the flaps in front are supposed to do."_

They're smoke deflectors.
As the engine moves ahead, they "shape the wind" to push the smoke upwards and away from the cab and crew. Better visibility and easier breathing!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

And when they fold out, they're wings, that's a flying locomotive!


----------



## Vincent

J.Albert1949 said:


> _"I still can't figure out what the flaps in front are supposed to do."_
> 
> They're smoke deflectors.
> As the engine moves ahead, they "shape the wind" to push the smoke upwards and away from the cab and crew. Better visibility and easier breathing!


Thank you. Now that I know, I looked it up. As steam locomotives became more fuel-efficient, less heat was lost going up the chimney, so more smoke blew onto the cab. Smoke defectors became more necessary to correct this problem.


The first steam locomotives had solved the problem by having tall chimneys. However, as more bridges were built, railroads had to lower the chimneys.


----------



## ebtnut

"The first steam locomotives had solved the problem by having tall chimneys. However, as more bridges were built, railroads had to lower the chimneys." Not really. As boilers got bigger, more of the stack was buried inside the smokebox. In many cases, as equipment got bigger the railroads replaced low bridges for more clearance. Tunnels were a much bigger (i.e., more expensive) problem and did restrict clearances much longer.


----------



## Lee Willis

The Union Pacific called them smoke shields. But popularly they were often nicknamed "elephant ears." Regardless, I love the look and have six of seven locos with them.


----------



## Krieglok

Vincent said:


> Yes, it's real. No, I wouldn't buy one--everyone would think it isn't real.



I have two in OO scale. The LMS in Britain ran them until they were replaced by 2-10-0s...

Tom


----------



## Vincent

Krieglok, that is one nice-looking locomotive!

(For those who came in late, Krieglok's photos show a single Gannat locomotive).


----------



## ebtnut

Spell check - Garrett, not Gannat.


----------



## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> Spell check - Garrett, not Gannat.


Heavens to Mergatroid, we're both wrong!

It's a Garratt locomotive.

For those who came in late, a Garratt locomotive was a somewhat successful attempt to build bigger, more powerful locos that could run on existing rail lines. The boiler was in the center, and there were two engines--one in front and one in back.

The drive wheels for the engines could swivel, allowing the Garratts to handle curves designed for smaller engines.

The US rejected them in favor of using two locos when needed.


----------



## flyernut

I believe the Garrets were operated also in Africa.


----------



## ebtnut

There are a few Garratts still in service in Zimbabwe, last I heard. There are a couple of the two-foot gauge units preserved in operating condition in South Africa at the Sandstone Estate and one from South Africa in operation in Wales, U.K. Re: Use in America, I've seen discussions/comments that the principal reason there was little to no interest here involved limitations on water and coal capacity and that as water and coal were consumed the tractive effort dropped. I suspect there might also have been some quotient of NIH Syndrom involved as well (NIH = Not Invented Here).


----------



## Vincent

It would be unpatriotic to refuse. During WW2, the US Army designed 2,120 2-8-0 steam locomotives for the war in Europe. Designed for building efficiency, they had some built-in problems that required extra maintenance, but they served well in Britain before being shipped to continental Europe.

Czechoslovakia removed its last one from service in 1972. Many were modernized, and China retired its last modernized one in 1997.


----------



## Murv2

Boston & Albany #39 “Marmora” B&A/1876 S American “Eddy Clock”; has domeless boiler 4-4-0

Sorry the pictures aren't great, but instead of steam domes it has cannons.


----------



## Vincent

Put this out the day after Thanksgiving for everybody to see


----------



## Vincent

And be sure to put this one out where all your friends and family can get the hint.


----------



## Krieglok

Vincent said:


> It would be unpatriotic to refuse. During WW2, the US Army designed 2,120 2-8-0 steam locomotives for the war in Europe. Designed for building efficiency, they had some built-in problems that required extra maintenance, but they served well in Britain before being shipped to continental Europe.
> 
> Czechoslovakia removed its last one from service in 1972. Many were modernized, and China retired its last modernized one in 1997.


Roco has made a model of this engine in 1/87 scale. The real locomotives were built to fit the much smaller British railway clearance. They are relatively small compared to the average American Consolidations. Notice in the photo that the drivers look large, but actually the boiler is much smaller than normal. 

I wish one of the OO makers from Britain would market a model in OO scale...

Tom


----------



## Vincent

Yes.


----------



## Billy 2 Wolves

*reply to vincent*

Yes I would buy models of those. Are any available?


----------



## Vincent

Billy 2 Wolves said:


> Yes I would buy models of those. Are any available?


Yes, but you have to scrounge.


----------



## Vincent

No


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> No
> View attachment 451593


If I were a werewolf on the prowl, I doubt that I would ride in a box car advertising the fact.


----------



## Southern

I want to make on of these, but 1:1 scale


----------



## Lee Willis

Now there is a car that corners as if on rails!!!


----------



## Old_Hobo

Lee Willis said:


> Now there is a car that corners as if on rails!!!


And practicly a self driver....will always stay in its own lane!


----------



## Vincent

Nikola said:


> If I were a werewolf on the prowl, I doubt that I would ride in a box car advertising the fact.


Especially since the boxcar is too small. 
On the other hand, the werewolf head bobs up and down.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Actually, the boxcar is the right size.....the werewolf is too big....


----------



## Vincent

It is obviously doctored-up. On the other hand, it does look pretty sharp.


----------



## Old_Hobo

That was actually an offering from Bradford Exchange back in 2012....not doctored up at all.....

https://www.bradfordexchange.ca/products/903718_indian-head-nickel-train-collection.html


----------



## Vincent

From 1901 to 1958, the "Ma & Pa" Railroad ran a successful short-line railroad in Pennsylvania with a line running into Maryland. Using antiquated equipment, it ran a popular passenger line that meandered through scenic mountains. It carried freight and serviced quarries in its area.

It had to abandon its Maryland line, followed by other lines in Pennsylvania. It got bought out and actually purchased a new line afterward. The holding company got bought out, and it was eventually merged into the York Railroad.

Yes, I would definitely buy a model of this beloved railroad.


----------



## Nikola

If they made it, yes, if I had money:


----------



## ebtnut

Re: the Ma and Pa - in addition to the Bachmann models of the 4-4-0's and 4-6-0's, almost all of the roads locos have been made at one time or another. PFM did both the light and heavy 2-8-0's, Gem did the gas-electric, West Side did both 0-6-0's, and Overland also did all 3 of the heavy 2-8-0's. There were also brass models of the long caboose and the passenger coaches. Westwood made a craftsman kit that built a coach and the RPO car. Alco did a brass No. 6, but the details were flawed.


----------



## Vincent

Nikola's photo of the first electric locomotive to enter service got me intrigued. Who invented the electric locomotive?

German inventers had made battery-powered locos in the nineteenth century, but they were rejected due to very short range. And while he did not invent the electric loco, Thomas Edison ran an experimental electric locomotive about 1/3 of a mile in 1880. (Picture 1)

Encouraged by the railroads and the government, he built a bigger line and ran a larger experimental engine on it a few years later. (Picture 2)


----------



## ebtnut

There was a brass model of that NYC S-1 electric years ago. Also, that loco was the basis for tinplate Lionel electric trains in both Standard and O gauge back in the pre-war years.


----------



## J.Albert1949

Nikola wrote:
"If they made it, yes, if I had money"






Long, long ago when I was young I got a ride around the lower level loop in Grand Central in one of these with a switching crew.

Later on, about 1983, the very last one was at the Harmon shops when I was a hostler there. I climbed up and looked around, can't remember if I ran it a little or moved it around (because that's a hostler's job)...


----------



## Nikola

J.Albert1949 said:


> Nikola wrote:
> "If they made it, yes, if I had money"
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EIHe5hSuNM
> 
> Long, long ago when I was young I got a ride around the lower level loop in Grand Central in one of these with a switching crew.
> 
> Later on, about 1983, the very last one was at the Harmon shops when I was a hostler there. I climbed up and looked around, can't remember if I ran it a little or moved it around (because that's a hostler's job)...


Wow, how cool! Fantastic memories!


(I still have no money.) 


EDIT:

I might be broke, but I can Google! Here's another photo:


----------



## DennyM

I had a feeling it was a Eric's Trains video. I would get one, but like Albert and Nikola, no money at least until October.


----------



## Vincent

And now, back to the beloved "Ma & Pa" (Maryland and Pennsylvania) Railroad I went through a lot of their photos (and Yes, they did have diesels) and picked these as my favorites:


----------



## Dennis461

*Would you buy or build an ACCURATE model of this?*

I know, Mantua made an 0-4-0, but it was not accurate
Would you buy or build an ACCURATE model of this?
Slide valves
inboard valve gear
two sand domes
generator directly behind light
hole in oil tank used for
A. Urinating on the frozen rear coupler
B. Sweeping out the cab at days end.
C. Passing beer to the brakeman
D.Using long boiler repair tools.

pick one answer


----------



## Vincent

I admit that it looks pretty sharp, but a black caboose? No.


----------



## Lee Willis

Oh yeah, that is cool. I agree that normally a caboose would not be good in black but there are exceptions, one being when they were in the real world. D&RG. I'd buy a black caboose for that RR. Given how I model western US and Colorado & New Mexico, etc., I really should have a D&RG caboose - many were black. 

In fact, come to think of it, I do have two black cabooses, although they are Black Bonnet. Pretty things - all glossy and shining!.


----------



## Vincent

Lee, I can't deny that there are some sharp-looking black cabooses (and you have two of them). But I just don't like them.

My recently-purchased Bachman Spectrum set has a nicely-done, solid, blue Rock Island caboose. I immediately switched it out with a generic red caboose that doesn't even have a RR name, and I still like the red one better.


----------



## Old_Hobo

To each his own.....


----------



## Vincent

$1

It had 16' 4" of track, three railway worker figures, and some signals. 

$1.

Did I mention that it was made of cardboard with wooden axles, and no motor? 

$1.

Today it would be $14.59.


----------



## Lee Willis

I've seen only one in my life. Somewhere in a museum - I think the model train museum in vancouver, BC. Anyway, it was an unusual thing, apparently rather hard to put together, but the only toy train there was during the war: cardboard was plentiful. Not so steel. As the box says "Lionel steel has gone to war!". I wonder how many mothers tried to help their sons put it together, while they thought of Dad, gone, fighting the war.

A very cool memory, Vincent.


----------



## Old_Hobo

I'd bet a boxed, unbuilt set would go for a lot more than $14.59 today.....


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> I'd bet a boxed, unbuilt set would go for a lot more than $14.59 today.....


About $300 in good condition; $400 in mint condition.

Wikipedia reports that many parents just got frustrated assembling it and threw it out. For people like us, it would provide some good static displays.


----------



## Vincent

I already said
A caboose should be red!


----------



## Old_Hobo

Not necessarily.....

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=454361&stc=1&d=1528123633

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=454369&stc=1&d=1528123750


----------



## ebtnut

Also depends on your definition of "red". The B&O and WM cabooses in the steam/early diesel era were bright red. When WM went to speed lettering the caboose color changed to mineral brown. The PRR used Tuscan red on most of their hacks. A lot of roads used what we sometimes refer to as "boxcar red".


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Not necessarily.....
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=454361&stc=1&d=1528123633
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=454369&stc=1&d=1528123750[/QUOTE
> They would both look better if they were red.


----------



## Old_Hobo

It's all just a matter of opinion.....and everybody's got one....

On the other hand, they can be nice when red....

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=454377&stc=1&d=1528130036


----------



## Vincent

Must...wake up...from this...nightmare...


----------



## Vincent

NO! NO! NO! (Have I made myself clear?)


----------



## DennyM

Really?? They made a KISS train?? hwell:


----------



## Lee Willis

No, I would not. Never, even if free.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Didn't that stand for "Keep It S Scale"?


----------



## Vincent

In my never-ending quest to uphold truth, justice, and the American way I searched the internet for images of a non-red caboose that I liked. I found one:


----------



## Old_Hobo

I wouldn't call that non-red....maybe only 50% non-red....:laugh:


----------



## Fire21

I like that red & black. But I find nothing wrong with UP yellow. I like colorful trains!


----------



## DennyM

I like it. Where did you find it and who makes it?


----------



## Vincent

DennyM said:


> I like it. Where did you find it and who makes it?


Somewhere in cyberspace.

Fire21, I agree that there are many sharp-looking non-red cabooses. BUT YOU WON'T FIND THEM ON MY LAY-OUT!


----------



## DennyM

And me without my space suit. hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Struggling manfully onward, I found a few more non-red cabooses that I would add to my collection.


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> Fire21, I agree that there are many sharp-looking non-red cabooses. BUT YOU WON'T FIND THEM ON MY LAY-OUT!





Vincent said:


> Struggling manfully onward, I found a few more non-red cabooses that I would add to my collection.


Gotta make up your mind, Vincent...this indecision could be hard on your brain! :laugh:


----------



## Lee Willis

Well, this isn't red, but it is on my layout.


----------



## Vincent

Great slogan, Lee.

And with a little work, it would make a nice boxcar.


----------



## jlc41

That is a very nice caboose, I like it. Vincent, those are some very nice cabooses you have.


----------



## Old_Hobo

I don't think he actually has those.....he searches the 'net looking for examples.....


----------



## highvoltage

DennyM said:


> And me without my space suit. hwell:


It was made by Lionel, 2011 catalog:

http://www.lionel.com/products/western-maryland-csx-heritage-extended-vision-caboose-6-27655/

I did a brief search for one but it appears to be sold out on the few websites I found.

Might be on eBay or other auction sites.


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> ...I agree that there are many sharp-looking non-red cabooses. BUT YOU WON'T FIND THEM ON MY LAY-OUT!


And you're such a stickler for realism:


----------



## DennyM

highvoltage said:


> It was made by Lionel, 2011 catalog:
> 
> http://www.lionel.com/products/western-maryland-csx-heritage-extended-vision-caboose-6-27655/
> 
> I did a brief search for one but it appears to be sold out on the few websites I found.
> 
> Might be on eBay or other auction sites.


Yeah Ebay and Tranz say sold out, but $80 to $90 one is not worth it no matter how much I like it.


----------



## DennyM

I've got red, blue, yellow and brown.


----------



## jlc41

Very nice collection.


----------



## Vincent

Impressive collection, Denny. I liked the one with the postage stamps on it.


----------



## Old_Hobo

But it's not red! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Vincent

I stole this photo from Roger Farnsworth on another thread.

No it's not a mobile home--this beautiful railcar is part of Ugandan Railways, and Yes, I would buy a model of it.


----------



## DennyM

I would too.


----------



## Lee Willis

Speaking of cabooses, this is my favorite, which I repainted and relabeled. It is a reddish brown, although here it looks mostly brown. I made it to match the dozen Menards boxcars I repainted and labeled for the Brown Boxcar Company ("Ship it in a Brown Box!"). They make a cool train.


----------



## Vincent

Lee, I have to admit that I am impressed.


----------



## Vincent

America and Britain were using horse-drawn railroads to transport coal and other products to port cities, when someone in Britain invented a successful steam-powered loco. American businessmen sent an agent to Britain to study them, and if feasible, to purchase a four-ton loco.


He returned with the 7 1/2 ton "Stourbridge Lion." Thousands assembled to watch the Lon's first trip on wooden rails with iron ties (No, I didn't get them mixed up). No one would volunteer to be a passenger, but the Lion and its engineer successfully rode the entire ten-mile rail and then returned running backwards.

Alas, the Lion was too heavy and was disassembled for parts after only a couple of trips. But it proved to America that steam locomotives were the wave of the future.


----------



## Lee Willis

Well, very often the first prototype of something is pretty clunky. It wasn't like the original Wright flyer was very good, or Goddard's first rocket. But give it time . . . The Lion was cool in its own way. 

I was looking at old photos of a loco this morning I would buy in a heartbeat if I could find a good O-Gauge model of it - a Santa Fe "Santa Fe" (2-10-2). Believe it or not, out of 90 model steam locomotives, I don't have a single 2-10-2. That is hard to believe, but true. And the Santa Fe Santa Fes were such big, good looking locomotives - that's just a shame I don't have at least one. 









EDIT: Well, that was fast! I found a NIB 3rd Rail one, of the very class I most wanted. Cool.


----------



## Vincent

It only took one year, but in 1830 the first totally-American-built locomotive was on the rails. "The Best Friend of Charleston" ran a six mile passenger route (many of them tourists) for a year, and then someone decided to fasten the steam safety valve in place to increase speed. The result was the first boiler explosion in history.

Nonetheless, the science of building steam locomotives advanced rapidly in the US after this loco proved it could be done.


----------



## Lee Willis

I've seen a musueum display/reproduction/something on this loco, I assume in Charleston, although I'm not sure actually. It was amazingly crude and clunky, but then, 1830 . . .

I'm reading Simon Winchester new book, The Perfectionists, about the gradual development of precision engineering and its impact on the world. Alot of it has to do with early steam engines and locomotives. Looking at these old locos and thinking about the materials, tools and methods folks back then had to build them, makes you appreciate how smart they were - and how far we've come.


----------



## Vincent

I doubt this caboose would run on my HO lay-out. But I have my Christmas stuff stored separately (for December only) and I think it would make a nice display piece.


----------



## Old_Hobo

It wouldn't run on any layout....it's a one piece casting of some kind of clay.....


----------



## Lee Willis

Old_Hobo said:


> It wouldn't run on any layout....it's a one piece casting of some kind of clay.....


Actually it looks like a cake, doesn't it? Yummy!


----------



## Vincent

Lee Willis said:


> Actually it looks like a cake, doesn't it? Yummy!


Lee, I had wondered if it weren't a gingerbread cake, but the smoke(?) coming out of the chimney, plus the detail of the elf, pretty well indicates that it's ceramic.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Plus, you can buy them here:

https://christmasloft.com/department-56-north-pole-village-northern-lights-caboose-accessory/

Edit: this piece was retired in 2016, so it's probably not available anymore.....


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Plus, you can buy them here:
> 
> https://christmasloft.com/department-56-north-pole-village-northern-lights-caboose-accessory/


I like the part where they said "...a glow from LED lights omits from the windows."


----------



## Old_Hobo

:laugh: Omits.....yeah, they had 5 vowels to chose from for the first letter of that word, and they picked the wrong one! :laugh:


----------



## DennyM

This is off the path, but I would put it on my layout. I love places like this. Delgadillo's Snow Cap Diner.


----------



## Vincent

Sometimes I will reject a red caboose.


----------



## Lee Willis

Ah, come on Vincent, that caboose has _character._ You don't find that in just any caboose. 

Here are a couple I have quite like that one. I have a third tiny, old, weathered caboose, on a three-axle truck, that is cooler still, but it is hiding from me this morning and I gave up trying to find it.


----------



## Vincent

Lee, you've given me a brilliant idea for a new thread.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Oh no........thanks a lot Lee.......hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Definitely an interesting addition to any lay-out. But it would have to be able to pull cars before I would buy it.


----------



## Fire21

The Europeans have some cool-looking locos.


----------



## Vincent

It definitely presents us with ideas for our lay-outs.


----------



## Vincent

This is a nice-looking N-scale set.

I have run out of room on my 6' by 8' table with its four HO's, three castles, the Kryptonite Mining Company, helicopter landing pad, railyard, and residential area.

I am accumulating material for converting everything to a Christmas display in December, and I am seriously considering going to either N or O for the display, to see how I like them.


----------



## DennyM

I say go with N for your Christmas display. I have toyed with he idea of going with HO for under the Christmas tree, but I have five cats. I'm not sure if I'd be able to keep it on the track.


----------



## Vincent

DennyM said:


> I say go with N for your Christmas display. I have toyed with he idea of going with HO for under the Christmas tree, but I have five cats. I'm not sure if I'd be able to keep it on the track.


Decades ago, I concluded that it is a mistake to have an HO lay-out on the floor. Granted, the tracks hold together better nowadays. But dust, uneven carpeting, etc., generally make it a bad idea.


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> ... I am seriously considering going to either N or O for the display, to see how I like them.


I had an N setup a couple Christmases ago. An O engine has enough heft to slightly move an encroaching gift. An N loco has enough heft to be greatly moved by the smallest of gifts! Just gotta be careful where you lay things...


----------



## DennyM

A friend of mine has a HO layout he puts under the tree even though he runs O gauge. He puts down a platform and puts the tree in the middle and builds the Christmas town around it along with a oval track. I looks pretty time consuming, but he is a major Christmas junkie.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, if I can figure out what it is.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Yes, if I can figure out what it is.


Yep, a Galloping goose. I had an MTH one, it think it was, but it wasn't scale so I got rid of it.


----------



## Vincent

Definitely!


----------



## jlc41

Very nice equipment really sharp.


----------



## Lee Willis

I think I have that truck Vincent, but with Hershey's chocolate instead of ice cream on the side.


----------



## DennyM

I would model either one of these. Well maybe more so the one on the bottom photo.


----------



## Vincent

I believe so.


----------



## Nikola

DennyM said:


> I would model either one of these. Well maybe more so the one on the bottom photo.
> 
> View attachment 457544
> 
> 
> View attachment 457546


The bottom one looks more authentic but I do not recall them having that formed rear pan. Just a crude black steel bumper.


----------



## highvoltage

Nikola said:


> The bottom one looks more authentic but I do not recall them having that formed rear pan. Just a crude black steel bumper.


A quick bit of Googling gave me lots of pics of Good Humor trucks. The formed pan appears in a lot of them, but I can't tell if that's an original feature or added during restoration. I suspect that if it's a true restoration, then they're aiming for authenticity and the pan was there all along.


----------



## DennyM

Nikola said:


> The bottom one looks more authentic but I do not recall them having that formed rear pan. Just a crude black steel bumper.


The one on top looks more like the truck that came to my neighborhood. There were three bells in front he would ring and kids would come out of the wood work to get ice cream.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> I believe so.


Those are cute, but I bought two, and both burned out their boards. Apparently it is a design flaw, they tend to overheat. I converted them to normal car models (they are Buicks, if I recall correctly from 1938) and still have them.


----------



## Vincent

Now that everybody has forgotten The Keystone Cops, I think this model is safe to own.


----------



## DennyM

I haven't forgotten the Keystone Cops. I forgot what I did this morning, but not them.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Yeah, who says everyone's forgotten them....I haven't either!hwell:


----------



## DennyM




----------



## cramden

Nikola said:


> The bottom one looks more authentic but I do not recall them having that formed rear pan. Just a crude black steel bumper.


I agree, the ones that came thru my neighborhood had a black bumper. That picture almost appears to have an anti-climber type bumper. Probably kept kids from jumping on the back and helping themselves to the goods. Anyone else remember the three/five? bells on the roof that had a cord the driver pulled to ring them? Post script, looking at google maybe my memory isn't as good as I thought, lot of pics with the weird rear bumper. I just don't recall that.


----------



## Vincent

Cramden, Yes, I remember the Good Humor driver pulling a cord to ring the bells on top of his truck.

And, getting back to the Keystone Cops, Yes, I would like to have a model of this but ONLY if it included the figures:


----------



## DennyM

I just watched very old episode of 'What's My Line' from the 1950's and they had a fellow who was one of the original Keystone Cops and he was in his 80's or 90's.


----------



## Stumpy

Back to locomotives.... https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018...streamlined-locomotives-welcome-to-the-1930s/


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

This is one UGLY locomotive!


----------



## Vincent

Gunrunnerjohn, I wouldn't touch that 1912 Jocondes with a ten-foot pole. Designed for light fast passenger trains, they did serve successfully for about 42 years.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Looks like a giant nose on the front!

I like it! :thumbsup:


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Looks like a giant nose on the front!
> 
> I like it! :thumbsup:


Oui, Monsieur!


----------



## Lee Willis

So in a race with say, a NYC Dreyfus Hudson, would it win by a nose?


----------



## Old_Hobo

Yes...by a very BIG nose! :laugh:


----------



## Vincent

You know what to do if the crew of that locomotive ever goes on strike?

Picket!


----------



## Old_Hobo

Well, blow me away! :laugh:


----------



## Lemonhawk

A nose like Kilroy was here!


----------



## highvoltage

delete


----------



## Chaostrain

Yep. It looks like a great base for steampunk.


----------



## Lee Willis

Chaostrain said:


> Yep. It looks like a great base for steampunk.


That is a good point. Hmmm. . . .


----------



## Vincent

Forget the 1928 Pierce Arrow they found in a barn--look at that dashboard!


----------



## Lee Willis

Interesting dashboard. Andy idea what the H A O C selector at the bottom of it does? My guess would be operates vents, the letters standing for Heat, Air (uncooled, just a blower), Outside vents open, and Closed.


----------



## Vincent

"Dixit et Fecit" is the Pierce family motto. Literally, "He said and he did," it is often understood to mean "He said he would do it and he did."


----------



## Vincent

Okay, but they have to include the action figures.


----------



## DennyM

It's Dudley Do Right!!!


----------



## Lee Willis

DennyM said:


> It's Dudley Do Right!!!


Naw, I think it's Sergeant Preston!!!


----------



## DennyM

Lee Willis said:


> Naw, I think it's Sergeant Preston!!!


I think your right.


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> "Dixit et Fecit" is the Pierce family motto...


Similar to my motto: "Fix it or ditch it."


----------



## Lee Willis

I don't know what this is, but a model of it would be very cool. It is a steam loco of some sort, obviously European, with two and maybe three (can't see) sets of drivers. 

I found this image during an image serach for Mallets. The image's link to the website the image is from brought up a stern warning - a security alert from both my Malware and McAfee each warning me it was a suspicious site that would try to install a virus on my computer, so I did not go to the site to learn about it.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Almost looks a bit photo-shopped to me.....don't know why, but.....


----------



## Vincent

NEVER! EVER!

Okay, Experts, what is it?


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> ...Okay, Experts, what is it?


Clicked on the image and the title of the photograph gave it away: Railroad plough. Used by retreating armies during war to make the train line impassable without repair.


----------



## Vincent

highvoltage said:


> Clicked on the image and the title of the photograph gave it away: Railroad plough. Used by retreating armies during war to make the train line impassable without repair.


You are correct. Used by both sides in WW2, and by Russia in WW1, its use is often considered a war crime, as it destroys civilian infrastructure.


----------



## Old_Hobo

I do believe a similar device was used as far back as the U.S. Civil War, but I haven't done any serious research on that....


----------



## highvoltage

Old_Hobo said:


> I do believe a similar device was used as far back as the U.S. Civil War, but I haven't done any serious research on that....


I didn't do any serious research, but I did uncover a technique used by Gen. Sherman to render rail lines unusable. It was called Sherman's neckties:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_neckties

Not as efficient as a railroad plough, but very effective.


----------



## Vincent

highvoltage said:


> I didn't so any serious research, but I did uncover a technique used by Gen. Sherman to render rail lines unusable. It was called Sherman's neckties:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_neckties
> 
> Not as efficient as a railroad plough, but very effective.[/QUOTE
> 
> Sherman explained to his troops that if they merely bent the Confederate rail lines, the South might be able to repair them. He wanted the metal rails twisted, which was much more difficult and time-consuming. However, twisting the rails into "Sherman's Neckties" made them unrepairable.


----------



## Vincent

Definitely a nice addition


----------



## Vincent

No, but there's a bizarre reason why not.

A model train magazine is running an article on early HO plastic steam locomotives and how inferior they were to early HO diesels (The article explained that the problem no longer exists.) 

I can't find the name of this magnificent early HO plastic loco, but after reading the article, I would only want it for a display piece.


----------



## Lee Willis

That is a pretty loco. 

And in this case, yes I have bought one. Although I have C&O 1650, not 1633. Not sure who made the one you picture - probably a Rivarossi one from twenty years ago. Regardless, you just gotta have an Allegheny if you love big steam. Mine is an O-Gauge Lionel JLC series from about twelve years ago or so . . .magnificent, if perhaps looking too pretty all shiny and unweathered.


----------



## Vincent

Lee, I found a photo of that loco you bought. It is considered one of the most powerful steam locos ever built designed mostly for service in the mountains of West Virginia.


That third loco in your photo, the large C&O diesel--can you give a better picture of it and explain what it is?


And don't feel bad about hiding Thomas the Tank Engine under your display--I have him shoved as far back as possible, but my wife won't let me replace him.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

The Allegheny is a must, and you should also have at least one Big Boy on the rear siding in case the Allegheny can't do the trick. 









Imagine those two and this one triple-headed, that would be a major amount of POWER! 









That's over 50 pounds of O-scale fun!


----------



## jlc41

Beautiful locos, I wish I had the room for a layout to run those beauties.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I wish I could get my new layout started so I could run them!


----------



## highvoltage

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I wish I could get my new layout started so I could run them!


Are you moved in yet?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'm moved in, I'm trying to get my order from Mianne going to get the remaining pieces to get in gear.


----------



## highvoltage

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm moved in, I'm trying to get my order from Mianne going to get the remaining pieces to get in gear.


Nice. Good luck and have fun!


----------



## Vincent

I have kit bashed two crane cars for wind-up trains, but am still looking for a regular HO crane car. This one would be nice.


----------



## Vincent

Issued by a British company, it probably never existed.


----------



## Lee Willis

It ight have existed. Some pretty strange things have been built and used. I could see something like that being among them.


----------



## Vincent

This 1928 Porter definitely did not exist--there was no such car. It's a 1924 Model T with a bunch of parts from several automobiles attached.

"My Mother the Car" was cancelled after one season and is on every list of failed TV shows. But I loved it when I was 12 years old, and I just watched the first episode and I still love it.


----------



## Old_Hobo

The original car in that tv series is now in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada....good thing we got it before the auto tariffs kick in.....:laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> The original car in that tv series is now in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada....good thing we got it before the auto tariffs kick in.....:laugh:


And she's a beauty!


----------



## Vincent

I'd like this one! The Fillmore and Western Railroad operates solely for tourists, movies, and commercials. Its tracks are owned by Ventura County, California.

Their future plans call for establishing a short-line passenger service and agricultural shipping service.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> And she's a beauty!


No. Not My Mother The Car. MMTC will never be on my layout. Definitely something I would not buy. 

I always viewed MMTC as a very low-point among TV sit-coms. Not that is was sillier than other shows. Maybe it was, but them many were ridivulously silly and stupid. 

It was such an obvious copycat - Mister Ed with wheels. Shame on them. Come up with something original!


----------



## Murv2

Lee Willis said:


> No. Not My Mother The Car. MMTC will never be on my layout. Definitely something I would not buy.
> 
> I always viewed MMTC as a very low-point among TV sit-coms. Not that is was sillier than other shows. Maybe it was, but them many were ridivulously silly and stupid.
> 
> It was such an obvious copycat - Mister Ed with wheels. Shame on them. Come up with something original!


Seriously? This is TV you are talking about here. They only have two plots.


----------



## Vincent

Murv2 said:


> Seriously? This is TV you are talking about here. They only have two plots.


Now I gotta know: What are the two plots?

1) Stupid and intelligent
2) Dumb and dumber
3) Porn and clean
4) Boring and interesting

To be fair, Lee's viewpoint is that of the overwhelming majority. Even Super Train got better ratings.

TV Guide once listed My Mother the Car as the second worst TV show in history. I don't know if it ever got onto minor stations as a re-run.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Now I gotta know: What are the two plots?
> 
> 1) Stupid and intelligent
> 2) Dumb and dumber
> 3) Porn and clean
> 4) Boring and interesting
> 
> To be fair, Lee's viewpoint is that of the overwhelming majority. Even Super Train got better ratings.
> 
> TV Guide once listed My Mother the Car as the second worst TV show in history. I don't know if it ever got onto minor stations as a re-run.



One of them is definitely that 'father is a fool'.


----------



## highvoltage

Nikola said:


> One of them is definitely that 'father is a fool'.


That's lately, back then it was "Father Knows Best." When did it switch?


----------



## Vincent

Not necessary. I have enough popsicle sticks to build one myself.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Not necessary. I have enough popsicle sticks to build one myself.


That is actually cool. I might make one.


----------



## 400E Blue Comet

One I'd like to have is actually one I remember from Railroad Tycoon 3 and Sid Meier's Railroads- How about a Beuth 2-2-2?
















(Side note: I'm pretty sure the tender is wrong in the first image, Railroad Tycoon 3 did the tender better, I think the game just gives that tender to all early steam locomotives by default)


----------



## Vincent

No. Looks like a guy with a butterfly on his nose.


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> No. Looks like a guy with a butterfly on his nose.


That is because it is a train with a butterfly on its nose!


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> No. Looks like a guy with a butterfly on his nose.


Based on hearing these things on videos, yes I might if I could get one with a realistic sound board. They are very unique-sounding with their Deltic diesel engines.

The first couple minutes of this video give good examples of the Deltic engine sounds. As you can see, they were real smokers!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_exyKhgnRI&frags=pl,wn


----------



## ebtnut

Sounds very much like an early Alco engine.


----------



## DennyM

Vincent said:


> No. Looks like a guy with a butterfly on his nose.


I dunno Vincent I kinda like it. If they did model it would be made by MTH the way it smokes.


----------



## Vincent

This poor guy doesn't know which way to go...


----------



## Lee Willis

Would You Buy A Model of This? 

A 2-2-0 loco is referred to as a "Planet," I discovered. But I don't know which planet - I'd guess Pluto maybe?


----------



## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> This poor guy doesn't know which way to go...


No worse than this:

https://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=459880&stc=1&d=1531460558


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> This poor guy doesn't know which way to go...





Old_Hobo said:


> No worse than this:


 Or this:


----------



## Stumpy

highvoltage said:


> Or this:
> 
> I think that's pretty cool looking. If I was modeling that time period, yeah, I'd buy one.


----------



## Vincent

I can't stand Amtrak, but I like that PRR loco.


----------



## 400E Blue Comet

Lee Willis said:


> Would You Buy A Model of This?
> 
> A 2-2-0 loco is referred to as a "Planet," I discovered. But I don't know which planet - I'd guess Pluto maybe?
> 
> View attachment 459846


Definitely an unusual one, but the Planet I know looks much different- coincidentally it's also a 2-2-0 though.


----------



## J.Albert1949

Old_Hobo said:


> No worse than this:
> 
> https://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=459880&stc=1&d=1531460558


Hey, I _-ran-_ that engine in the pic in my younger days.
The e60's were amazingly powerful, though they could be slippery and rode poorly at speed on bad track.

My very first trip as a newly-promoted engineer (on Conrail in May 1981) was with trains 178/61 from Penn to New Haven and back.

Going was AEM-7 909. Return was an e60 (the number escapes me).
I had _NEVER RUN ONE BEFORE._
I'd hostled them around NH Motor Storage, and worked on them as a fireman, but no engineer had ever "let me run".
So... I learned to do it on the fly. Just sat down, released the brake, pulled on the throttle, and "away we go".
I made it.

I've pulled fully-loaded rail trains over the Hell Gate, through the East River tunnels, and right into Penn Station with them (paired together). I'm wondering what they use now...

_Addendum..._
Used to hostle the GG-1's around NH Motor Storage, too...


----------



## Mr.Buchholz

Vincent said:


> I found these photos while researching locomotives. They are all real.


No. That thing is hideous. If I saw a model of it, I'd run in the opposite direction....

-J.


----------



## Vincent

DEFINITELY! When I was a kid, I liked the PP&L bills--I couldn't figure out why my parents didn't.


----------



## Vincent

Another beauty that I would love to own.


----------



## Vincent

Yes. Especially if it works.


----------



## Lee Willis

First of all I would want to know what it did.


----------



## ebtnut

It is a Jordan Spreader. Those wings swing out and down to grade out/even up the ballast and subroadbed. Also used to help clear deep snow. IIRC Walthers makes, or made one of these in HO.


----------



## J.Albert1949

evtnut wrote:
_"It is a Jordan Spreader. Those wings swing out and down to grade out/even up the ballast and subroadbed. Also used to help clear deep snow."_

I actually got to handle one of those once, in a work train.
You had to take direction from the conductor or operator (so long ago that I don't remember who it was), and keep the engine moving dead slow. Easiest way to do that was to keep an eye on the ground...


----------



## Vincent

Definitely!


----------



## Stumpy

Is that supposed to be a J-Class?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Plenty of those available in the market already, both MTH and Lionel make them. There's a TMCC version as well, I used to have one.


----------



## Vincent

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Plenty of those available in the market already, both MTH and Lionel make them. There's a TMCC version as well, I used to have one.


 Valid point, Gunrunnerjohn. However, I was impressed by the age of the loco.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Vince, if you're "buying a model of this", the age is pretty much a non-issue.


----------



## Vincent

What? You never heard of the Navajo Mine railroad? Its 13.8 mile-long track goes from a coal mine to a power plant, all of them located on a Navajo reservation.

Always at the cutting edge of technology, the railroad started with three diesels, replaced them with electric locos, and last year bought three new energy-efficient diesels.

Because it does not connect to any other railroad, its locos and cars had to be brought in by truck.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Bu would you buy a model of it?


----------



## Lee Willis

I did some re-engineering of the power system for the electric locos years ago,under contract with the Navaho Railroad. Good guys a ll around.


----------



## Vincent

Absolutely! "Reddy Watt" was invented by an Alabama electric company to convince rural homeowners and their local governments to bring in electricity. The popular figure was leased out all over the world and my parents' electric bills from Pennsylvania Power and Light included a picture of him.


If I could get this picture clearer I would print it out and add it to my lay-out.


----------



## Fire21

The character's name was "Reddy Kilowatt". At least that's how I remember it.


----------



## Old_Hobo

You are correct:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddy_Kilowatt



> I wash and dry your clothes, play your radios, I can heat your coffee pot,
> 
> I am always there, with lots of power to spare, ’cause I’m REDDY KILOWATT!


----------



## Vincent

Waitress? I'd like an extra-large slice of key lime pie, please!


----------



## Sweet Dreamer

Vincent said:


> I don't know if I would want a model of this.


I like unique designs. Especially from this period. So yeah, I would gladly have a model of this engine on my layout. I wouldn't call it ugly, but it's certainly different. Obviously the top flywheels are redundant as far as engineering is concerned. But many early steam engines were built with flywheels on top like that.

It's really only 'ugly' in the sense that it's not what people expect to see in terms of a steam locomotive.


----------



## Vincent

As a present for a child, perhaps. Incidentally, I have seen some good lay-outs on the web that include toy trains.


----------



## Vincent

Believe it or not, "Yes." I have assembled a crane truck from the same company, and then removed the crane and made it part of my lay-out. But I saved the rest of the parts.

Now if I had this one, I could kit-bash a...

It would have to be put on a shelf, though. Too big for my lay-out.


----------



## Murv2

Quantity is a quality all its own...


----------



## Old_Hobo

So, you'd buy a model of that.......?


----------



## Murv2

Old_Hobo said:


> So, you'd buy a model of that.......?


I like engines.


----------



## Vincent

I'm with you Murv. Imagine what you could do with that many locomotives!


----------



## Old_Hobo

Yeah, you'd need 20 times the rolling stock.....which we all could afford....hwell:


----------



## Murv2

It's either a salvage yard or rebuild facility in East St. Louis.


----------



## Vincent

Every one of them! And I don't even use O gauge.


----------



## Vincent

If the price is low enough.


----------



## Vincent

No. If I got it for free, I would disassemble it.


----------



## HFK

Really? I think that little guy is kinda cute. You could always repaint if you don't like Coke.


----------



## Guest

*I have all 5 cars*



Vincent said:


> Every one of them! And I don't even use O gauge.



Funny, I have the same cars in my display case shown in this link:


http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=1331


----------



## Vincent

HFK said:


> Really? I think that little guy is kinda cute. You could always repaint if you don't like Coke.


What little guy?


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> What little guy?


The one you just posted.


----------



## Vincent

highvoltage said:


> The one you just posted.
> 
> View attachment 463312


Oh. Well, he would make a nice flatcar and a nice storage shed.


----------



## Vincent

No. Maybe if he was run over by a train...


----------



## Old_Hobo

But it does look like something you would find on your layout.....


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> But it does look like something you would find on your layout.....


No, it doesn't.


----------



## Vincent

Now, I would love to have that diesel in my lay-out.


----------



## Lee Willis

Many here do. I have both C-liners and Sharks in B&O, but not EMD f or E units. It is one of the most beautiful liveries there is.


----------



## Vincent

I'm already saving my money.


----------



## Lee Willis

Really? Thomas Kinkade? You can do better than that.


----------



## Vincent

Lee Willis said:


> Really? Thomas Kinkade? You can do better than that.


Not when I live in Mexico.

Seriously, I had decided not to add any cheap Christmas buildings to my lay-out, unless the price is WAY down. I intend to take everything down around Thanksgiving and put up a Christmas lay-out, for which I am already collecting items. I have decided that a small number of outstanding displays are better than a large number of cheap displays.


----------



## Vincent

You betcha! If I get tired of it, I an turn it into a flatcar and an apartment building.


----------



## Guest

I think maybe that car should have a "convertible top" so it can get through the tunnel.


----------



## Stumpy

Dormitory car
.


----------



## Guest

They actually had villages on "wheels"? Where were they stored, and because of their height, how were they able to travel the rail lines where there were tunnels, and overhead wires, etc.?


----------



## Guest

I found this link discussing the triple-decker: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,4347198 I found only HO gauge kits online.


----------



## Stumpy

Picked up an Ambrioid triple deck dormitory car kit on eBay yesterday (thanks Vincent ), and an old Roundhouse Climax loco kit. Both are before the time period I'm shooting for (late 1920s early 30s) but I think the pair will make for a good static display of mobile crew quarters in either the maintenance yard or logging yard/camp.

I like the unusual.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, if I can keep it from floating away.


----------



## Fire21

Vincent said:


> Yes, if I can keep it from floating away.


Glow in the dark? Was that for real on the real cars? If so, why?


----------



## HFK

I love anything NASA but the glow in the dark is a bit much.


----------



## Vincent

Okay, try the Navy version. I don't think that it glows in the dark.


----------



## ebtnut

Helium was once a strategic material for the Navy. IIRC, the US had mastered making helium which was used in their drigibles and blimps. They wouldn't sell it to the Germans so they used hydrogen in derigibles like the Hindenberg, which illustrates the danger. Remember your old high school chem mantra - hydrogen and oxygen combine explosively? Helium is essentially inert, so no, it doesn't glow in the dark. I remember seeing one of those helium cars in a train back in the 1970's.


----------



## Stumpy

Fire21 said:


> Glow in the dark? Was that for real on the real cars? If so, why?


Dude... Area 51.


----------



## Vincent

The cars are models of real railcars: https://sfrhms.org/Reviews/HO/Freight/Helium/Index.htm


----------



## Vincent

No. It's too small...I mean...It's too big...I mean....I mean...NO!


----------



## trainmeup

Great Photos Vincent! I love the old ones!


----------



## Lee Willis

Yes, I know. It's not a train and it has nothing to do with toy trains. But some things are just sooooo cool!!! It is nine and half inches in diameter and makes up to 5 HP. Four cycle with operating valves. WOW!!!


----------



## Nikola

Lee Willis said:


> Yes, I know. It's not a train and it has nothing to do with toy trains. But some things are just sooooo cool!!! It is nine and half inches in diameter and makes up to 5 HP. Four cycle with operating valves. WOW!!!
> View attachment 463952


I would love to hear that run.


----------



## Old_Hobo

And so affordable too......


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

My brother had one of these, it's the Burgess 5-cylinder radial with a standard ignition, no glow plugs here! It was pretty hard to start, you really needed the starter motor to spin it. However, it idled so slow you could almost count the prop revs, very cool!


----------



## Vincent

Lee...



...if you could hook that thing up to a transformer....


----------



## Old_Hobo

....you'd blow it up, because it runs on nitro fuel....:laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> ....you'd blow it up, because it runs on nitro fuel....:laugh:


...but if you really knew what you were doing...


----------



## Old_Hobo

Famous last words...."I know what I'm doing".....


----------



## Vincent

But if you REALLY know what you're doing...


----------



## Guest

I came here to read all the really interesting stuff you guys are writing about. It's so great getting entertained. uhhh wait! What am I saying?


----------



## Vincent

No problem, June! You're welcome to get on board and answer the question: "Would you buy a model of this?"


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, MTH has already done the John Wilkes set, so it's pretty easy to find one. 

https://mthtrains.com/search/john wilkes?f[0]=field_product_line:4043


----------



## Guest

*Wow!*



Vincent said:


> No problem, June! You're welcome to get on board and answer the question: "Would you buy a model of this?"



If I had the opportunity, I certainly would. Thanx for showing it.:appl:


----------



## Guest

I found this, but go to my next post to open it...….. :


----------



## Guest

Trouble getting it to run...here's the other link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=lq0IQR-ck84&usg=AOvVaw3J48LzqwMh4xNLY4UDxNdN


----------



## Jusbpatient

rwslater said:


> Got to have one for the layout, The first one looks like some of Germany's first tries at an armoring a train.


I was thinking the exact same thing..pretty cool though


----------



## Stumpy

AD 60 class 4-8-4+4-8-4 Beyer Garratt.

http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/eureka-models-ad60-beyer-garratt
.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Well, I'll give you this, that's one unique locomotive!


----------



## Vincent

Stumpy, it looks great! But I would have a problem getting it around the curves on my lay-out.


----------



## Fire21

So that's basically the same as a 4-8-8-4 with some more idler wheels. Was it as large as the Big Boy, or built on a smaller scale?


----------



## Vincent

I believe these pictures were posted ten years ago on another forum. The second picture shows the inside.


----------



## Lee Willis

I will admit those Garrats are big, complex locos, but I never had any desire to have a model of one. Too weird. 

I like that mobile saw sharpening car, Vincent. I put a note in my "interesting projects to do" pile about it - my logging train could use such a car.


----------



## Stumpy

Fire21 said:


> So that's basically the same as a 4-8-8-4 with some more idler wheels. Was it as large as the Big Boy, or built on a smaller scale?


According to Wiki-know-it-all it had about half the "adhesive weight" and "tractive effort" of the Big Boy.

I find it interesting that the drive wheels are under the water tank and the coal bunker. It would seem that you would loose "adhesive weight" as coal/water are used.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I'm impressed with the Big Boy if it doubled the tractive effort of that monster.


----------



## Vincent

Shocking!

Somebody took two perfectly good model RR accessories and turned them into Christmas ornaments.





On the other hand, they would look pretty good in my Christmas lay-out.


----------



## Lee Willis

They are cute!!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hard to tell the scale of those, they kinda' look much larger than O-scale.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, It's hand-made, and I do not believe that it is motorized.


----------



## Lemonhawk

Must be for navigating flooded RR tracks! Where did you find this?


----------



## Vincent

Lemonhawk said:


> Must be for navigating flooded RR tracks! Where did you find this?


Somewhere on the web.

Sometime back, I researched science fiction/fantasy model train lay-outs. I was surprised to learn that underwater lay-outs (that are not literally underwater) are the most common, and I am accumulating items to build one in January.


----------



## Vincent

Another one-of-a-kind fantasy train masterpiece.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Except it's not a train......:laugh:


----------



## Fire21

Makes me think of Windwagon Smith...


----------



## Vincent

No. Too gloomy.


----------



## Vincent

I better not--I'll be wanting Hershey bars all the time.


----------



## Vincent

See what I did? I got everybody hungry.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Not everybody.....just you......hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Not everybody.....just you......hwell:



Quiver me liver, Old Hobo!

Being the most lidderet of me crew, I reviewed your posts. Then I paid me crew $2 apiece (That's a buck an ear) to lissen to me.


I told 'em, "I seize that Old Hobo travels around the foursome insultin' people but he never shows pictures of his own model train lay-out." And a scurvy scallywag calls out "I'll bet he doesn't even have a train lay-out!" an accusation that I be sure be not true.

So show us your trains, Old Buddy, and let's see if we can get some good ideas from your lay-out.


----------



## Billy 2 Wolves

I have an N scale of the JUPITER


----------



## Vincent

A serious point here is that if this hopper is empty, you really could fill it with Hershey's powder. 

Between the weight and the ants, I wouldn't, but it could be done.


----------



## Vincent

Gang, I tried...I really tried. There was (and still is) a Hershey railroad in Cuba, and it remains the only electric railroad in Cuba today.

But there never was a Hershey railroad in the US, and there were never any Hershey railroad cars in the US.

This is a model.


----------



## Old_Hobo

But there is a Hershey highway.....:laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Forget the model! I want a real one!


----------



## Vincent

Yes, there IS an M&M Railroad!

Well, the Mississippi and Missouri Railroad. And it received representation from a lawyer named Abraham Lincoln.

Rock Island Railroad bought it out shortly after the Civil War.

I can find no record of M&M candy on an actual railcar.


----------



## Oldnewchoo

:dunno:Every time I find something I think is unique and cool (my wife will say "Oh that's cool...and I can hear her think REALLY?) I don't have the funds. Sucks sometimes...


----------



## Vincent

I get the joke (This is a model, not a real boxcar), but I still wouldn't buy one.


----------



## Lee Willis

Yeah, but it is cool, Vincent. Very funny.


----------



## J.Albert1949

Vincent wrote:
_"I get the joke (This is a model, not a real boxcar)"_

It happens in the real world, too:


----------



## Vincent

I would definitely buy this sharp-looking model of a kerosene tank car.


----------



## Vincent

I think so. It looks pretty good.


----------



## Vincent

Finally! I understand why candy companies don't advertise on railcars! We all know that high-quality foods (such as Nestle's candy) are packaged in a clean, safe manner. But this dirty railcar will make a bad impression on people.


----------



## Vincent

Yes! I want one!


----------



## Vincent

I don't think it runs, and after a minute or so, it isn't interesting anymore.


----------



## Vincent

Good and Plenty candy failed because its licorice taste couldn't compete with newer, better recipes. Some company bought the patents on several discontinued candies and re-introduced Good and Plenty and it failed.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, I would buy it. And looking it over gives me some ideas.


----------



## Guest

It looks like you could make one by mounting a bobber caboose body on a flat car and adding some Christmas decorations.


----------



## Vincent

Country Joe said:


> It looks like you could make one by mounting a bobber caboose body on a flat car and adding some Christmas decorations.


 CountryJoe, look at the couplings. I THINK this is a car from a large, battery-powered train. As I have never seen it advertised, I wonder if someone didn't remove the body of a car they didn't like and add the decorations.

I have experimented with converting one such car into a pirate railcar (complete with cannons and pirates), but looking at this photo, I think I can do better.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Good and Plenty candy failed because its licorice taste couldn't compete with newer, better recipes. Some company bought the patents on several discontinued candies and re-introduced Good and Plenty and it failed.


Choo Choo Charlie was an engineer..................


----------



## Vincent

I'm not "into" Disney trains, but I have to admit that this one has a really sharp paint job.


----------



## Guest

Vincent said:


> CountryJoe, look at the couplings. I THINK this is a car from a large, battery-powered train. As I have never seen it advertised, I wonder if someone didn't remove the body of a car they didn't like and add the decorations.
> 
> I have experimented with converting one such car into a pirate railcar (complete with cannons and pirates), but looking at this photo, I think I can do better.


Vincent, I'm 99% sure that caboose is from a New Bright train set. I found a video online that looks like that caboose.


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> Good and Plenty candy failed because its licorice taste couldn't compete with newer, better recipes. Some company bought the patents on several discontinued candies and re-introduced Good and Plenty and it failed.


Good and Plenty is still around, it's now owned by Hershey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_%26_Plenty


----------



## Vincent

CountryJoe, you're right! I gotta' buy that train.

But studying the photo of the toy shop caboose has still given me some good ideas.


----------



## Vincent

Cleaned up, or looking like this?

Up and running, or a display piece?


----------



## ebtnut

I always thought Garretts were neat. Too bad they never penetrated the U.S. market. FWIW, there is 2-foot gauge Garrett that operates on a private estate in Texas. Came from South Africa.


----------



## Murv2

No fun if they don’t run.​


----------



## Vincent

I like the streamlined diesel design. But I don't like the popular Santa Fe red and silver design because it looks too much like a toy.


----------



## AmtrackJim

Are you talking about the picture of the Canadian Pacific diesel?


----------



## Vincent

AmtrackJim said:


> Are you talking about the picture of the Canadian Pacific diesel?


Yes. That is a nice-looking diesel that I would be willing to buy.


----------



## HFK

Vincent said:


> I like the streamlined diesel design. But *I don't like the popular Santa Fe red and silver design because it looks too much like a toy.*



You literally put actual toys around your layout but the colors on the SF are too far for you?


----------



## Old_Hobo

And you do know that models of trains are, in fact, toys anyway.....


----------



## Vincent

My first reaction to this 1936 streamlined Dutch steam locomotive is "No." But after looking at it a while, I realized that it would make an interesting addition to most lay-outs.


----------



## Fire21

Man, that is one ugly hunk of iron!


----------



## Vincent

Fire21 said:


> Man, that is one ugly hunk of iron!


I agree. But it certainly would be an interesting conversation starter.


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

Does not follow the lines of the Daylight locomotive. But interesting. Doubtful we will be seeing this on the shelves anytime soon.


----------



## Vincent

I would definitely like to own this beauty.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Hmm... I have a couple of A-B-A Shark sets, one is the PRR and one is the D&H. So, yes, I'd like to own a model of that, and I do!


----------



## Lee Willis

Are you sure you have this Shark, John? If you do, who made it? The ony O-Gauge ones seem to be by Weaver, long ago?

The loco in the photo looked longer than my Sharks, and it is - note it has nine vent grills down the side rather than six like normal Sharks. It had 2000 HP rather than 1500 like normal Sharks. I had to look it up. Only a handful made - to compete with EMD Es I guess. Baldwin called it a DR-6-4-2000 and PRR, the only railroad with any, called it a BP-20. There were no B units. made. 

I would love to have an AA set. Sort of a super-shark.


----------



## Vincent

Now you guys got me interested in “sharks,” often called “sharknose” diesels.

The PRR designed three types which were built by Baldwin from 1945 to 1953. They then built various improved models within those three types. The sharknose design was done to distinguish them from competitors and from earlier less-successful diesels.

Although the PRR was the primary purchaser, other railroads, including Soviet Railways, bought some. The last two went out of service in 1981.


----------



## Stumpy

A 20-axle shiftable depressed deck flatcar?

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...0-axle-shiftable-fd---texx-900-300749544.html


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Lee Willis said:


> Are you sure you have this Shark, John? If you do, who made it? The ony O-Gauge ones seem to be by Weaver, long ago?.


You're right Lee, I have the sharks, just not that particular model. I thought it looked longer than the ones I have, that's probably right.


----------



## Vincent

Stumpy said:


> A 20-axle shiftable depressed deck flatcar?
> 
> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...0-axle-shiftable-fd---texx-900-300749544.html


That baby can haul over 900,000 pounds!


----------



## DennyM

Vincent said:


> Now you guys got me interested in “sharks,” often called “sharknose” diesels.
> 
> The PRR designed three types which were built by Baldwin from 1945 to 1953. They then built various improved models within those three types. The sharknose design was done to distinguish them from competitors and from earlier less-successful diesels.
> 
> Although the PRR was the primary purchaser, other railroads, including Soviet Railways, bought some. The last two went out of service in 1981.


Not sure if Southern Pacific had any or it was just for modeling.


----------



## Vincent

This is the first time I have posted a photo of an entire train. And, yes, I would like to own this one. However, it is a Lionel O gauge train.


----------



## Vincent

My first thought was "No." 

But then I realized that it would make an interesting addition to a military railroad display.


----------



## Billy 2 Wolves

*respond to vincent*

I believe this was actually was propose as a weapon in WWI.
By the way 11 November 2018 marked the centennial of the end of WWI


----------



## Vincent

Billy 2 Wolves said:


> I believe this was actually was propose as a weapon in WWI.
> By the way 11 November 2018 marked the centennial of the end of WWI


Right you are, Billy. I saw a documentary showing these, as well as others that were propelled on foot by the operator, and others in which the operators advanced on their knees. All three designs were rejected.


----------



## Old_Hobo

That's a real reach....what it had to do with trains, I'll never know.....hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Forget the train--I want that car for my lay-out!


----------



## Vincent

No. Too many errors.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Errors?


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Errors?


The railcar is blown off the track, yet has no damage. The broken treads are shown on the railcar, yet they are still on the tank. The track appears to be the wrong gauge. One of the chains holding the tank in place is not connected to anything.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon

Vincent said:


> The railcar is blown off the track, yet has no damage. The broken treads are shown on the railcar, yet they are still on the tank. The track appears to be the wrong gauge. One of the chains holding the tank in place is not connected to anything.


Is supposed to be derelict? Bits and pieces strewn about I think. Whatever, a very nicely done diorama.


----------



## mopac

Great weathering on tank and railcar. Vincent, I think those are spare treads. They
look too large for that tank. It is a small tank. Really looks pretty good overall. Nice
chain.


----------



## Murv2

mopac said:


> Great weathering on tank and railcar. Vincent, I think those are spare treads. They
> look too large for that tank. It is a small tank. Really looks pretty good overall. Nice
> chain.


Tiger tanks were too wide for rail transport with the normal treads on so the Germans had special narrow tracks for train rides. It took the crew about half an hour to change tracks and the narrow ones were only good for solid surfaces. The first thing I noticed was the car looked wider than it should for the track but it's possible the prototype was oddly wide to fit the tank. Also, could be a derailment rather than battle damage. Russian partisans damaged track in hundreds of places every day. Model builders are even more anal about historical accuracy than wargamers, I'm willing to give the guy a pass unless I know factually otherwise.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> The railcar is blown off the track, yet has no damage. The broken treads are shown on the railcar, yet they azre still on the tank. The track appears to be the wrong gauge. One of the chains holding the tank in place is not connected to anything.


Looks pretty authentic to me...... Europe had different rail gauges, different cars, etc, during WWII.....perfectly acceptable depiction of a war damaged railway car, broken chains, Tiger Tank.....

You weren't a history teacher apparently.......:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Krieglok

It looks right to me. Like Murv said, the tanks traveled on railcars with "loading tracks" as the "field tracks" would exceed clearances on the sides. They had side mud guards that were removed too.

The tank was so heavy, that the tank would quickly get stuck in earth or mud if it attempted to go cross country with the loading tracks. The wider tracks gave the tank ability to go cross country and not get stuck...as often.

The wide treads were loaded with the tank when it was placed upon a flatcar.

The track gauge looks fine too. The Germans regauged thousands of miles of track in the Soviet Union after the initial invasion and their drive to Moscow. Russia had 5 foot gauge while the Germans used standard gauge, 4' 8 1/2"...

The diorama appears to depict a derailment, common on wartime track in battle areas. There really isn't anything wrong. Nice diorama!

Tom


----------



## Vincent

Forget the model! This 1948 Ford pick-up is for sale in Guadalajara for $220 US. Despite his glowing description, the owner never actually says that it runs.

Actually, I'm suspicious of the offer, but I really did get this ad today in my inbox.


----------



## Old_Hobo

But, as the title of this thread asks....would you buy a model of it?

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Vincent

The damaged battleship Pennsylvania sits in drydock the day after Pearl Harbor. Yes I would buy this one--my father was on board the Pennsylvania when this photo was taken.


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

Does anyone have a model of the VIA Turbo train? Canada's high speed commuter train in the 70's. I just bought a Rapido N scale with DCC and sound. I thought it looked honky in the box, but once on the track it is really pretty neat train. Did any other manufacturer make them in any scale?


----------



## Vincent

PoppetFlatsRR said:


> Does anyone have a model of the VIA. Canada's high speed commuter train in the 70's. I just bought a Rapido with DCC and sound. I thought it looked honky in the box, but once on the track it is really pretty neat train. Did any other manufacturer make them in any scale?


The good news is that I learned something. Via Rail is a passenger train service in Quebec and Ontario. I was able to find undated photos of two sharp-looking diesels and an old sleeper car.

It also shares operation of "The Maple Leaf," an Amtrak passenger train going from New York City into Canada.

Any chance of posting a photo of your Via locomotive?


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

It is a real pain to put together, mine has two engines and 7 cars. All runing on one axle. Bulltet train for sure. I am not setting it up for a few days. Very delicate I am sure. But here is a you tube of one exactly like mine.


----------



## Vincent

Great video, and that is definitely a sharp-looking train!


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

They ran until 1982 according to the paper work. Quite expensive for N scale unit. But it comes with voice, head lights, end of train light and all cars have lights. Horn is a recording of the real horn and bell. I doubt it gets ran very often, because not many of them were made and the parts for them will be scarce. 

I ran it yesterday the hobby shop. They set it up, as they gave me a killer deal on it. Bob ordered it last June and did not expect to get one, he ended up with three on order so he made me a deal. Like I said, in the box it isn't very jaw dropping, but on the track it is very fast (170 MPH was the highest speed I guess) runs extremely smooth and has a tremendous amount of options/sounds. Anxious to get it on my layout. Will be completely out of place, but it will draw a lot of attention when it comes flying past.

This train was the dying wish of one of the main people at Rapido. A very interesting company for sure. 

I really didn't want the train, but now that I have it, I am very happy my dealer made me buy it. lol


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

I watched another video on it, and it had a very unique suspension system, allowing it to rock from side to side. 

I am not sure it will make my hill, but I am modifying my track in the near future so I will be able to run it on the low side. The engines are quite heavy, but the cars are very light and only one axle on each end of the cars. It really is quite kool.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> The good news is that I learned something. Via Rail is a passenger train service in Quebec and Ontario


You need to learn more then....Via serves all of Canada, not just Ontario and Quebec.....hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Uhm, Yes, a train service that serves all of Canada would serve Quebec and Ontario. Now where are the photos of your train lay-out?


----------



## Vincent

I spent some time on this one. It looks like the locomotive and tender are a single unit. Still, if the price were low enough...


----------



## CTValleyRR

Vincent said:


> Uhm, Yes, a train service that serves all of Canada would serve Quebec and Ontario. Now where are the photos of your train lay-out?


That's like saying Amtrak serves New England. It does, but so much more as well. It's clear from context that you blew it -- there was no need to restrict the description of VIA's service area to those two provinces. Admit it and more on.


----------



## Vincent

CTValleyRR said:


> That's like saying Amtrak serves New England. It does, but so much more as well. It's clear from context that you blew it -- there was no need to restrict the description of VIA's service area to those two provinces. Admit it and more on.


Okay. No hard feelings.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> Uhm, Yes, a train service that serves all of Canada would serve Quebec and Ontario. Now where are the photos of your train lay-out?


Like I said, as soon as you stop spreading mis-information about stuff......I don't expect that will happen soon though....hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Like I said, as soon as you stop spreading mis-information about stuff......I don't expect that will happen soon though....hwell:


Giver me flivver, Old Hobo! I re-checked me maps, and Ontario and Quebec both be in Canada! But I can't find your lay-out on the map!


----------



## Lee Willis

This is a very entertaining thread!


----------



## Vincent

Lee Willis said:


> This is a very entertaining thread!


The challenge is: How many variations of "Shiver me timbers" can I come up with?


----------



## Old_Hobo

I submit your ten year old mind will come up with a few more.....:laugh:


----------



## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> Giver me flivver, Old Hobo! I re-checked me maps, and Ontario and Quebec both be in Canada


Well, that same map could tell you that there are more provinces in Canada than just Ontario and Quebec, and VIA serves those as well......guess you didn't really mean it when you said no hard feelings when CVT dressed you down.....let it go, Indiana.....


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> I submit your ten year old mind will come up with a few more.....:laugh:


When I do run out, I'll take the time to explain why the information you provided on another thread is incorrect while mine is correct.


----------



## highvoltage

If you two are going to pick on each other, do it in a private message.


----------



## flyernut

Wow, it's starting to sound like facebook,lol....


----------



## Xnats

I think their accounts got hacked, it might be time to implement minimum 50 character passwords to be safe and have auto log-off each time a new page is loaded.


----------



## Vincent

I have read reports that this loco got pretty dirty very easily. Still, it is a sharp-looking diesel.


----------



## flyernut

Vincent said:


> I have read reports that this loco got pretty dirty very easily. Still, it is a sharp-looking diesel.


ANY PA, regardless of road-name or color, is a beautiful thing!!!. I have a MTH Denver & Rio Grande, ABBBA unit with around 10 cars and it's a sight to behold, just love it!!


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

I have several PA'a and just love them. Mine are Southern Pacific, with the Daylight train, and the Rio Grande and Zepher units. Love the sound of the Broadway Limited version, and especially when it comes down my hill. The engine sound slows to almost and idle. Very kool.

I don't participate on Face Book. I come here for information and ideas. Really don't like reading the stuff above. Sorry my post started it.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Looks like I'll have to warm up my delete finger. Guys, please stop the bickering.


----------



## Vincent

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Looks like I'll have to warm up my delete finger. Guys, please stop the bickering.


Okay.


----------



## Old_Hobo

I'll call off the dogs.....


----------



## Vincent

Baldwin Locomotive only built four of these magnificent C-16 dockside switchers. Model railroad companies manufactured thousands of them.


----------



## Fire21

flyernut said:


> ANY PA, regardless of road-name or color, is a beautiful thing!!!. I have a MTH Denver & Rio Grande, ABBBA unit with around 10 cars and it's a sight to behold, just love it!!


I agree about the PAs, and will include the FAs...best looking diesels ever made. I have two Kato D&RG PAs and a non-powered Concor B with a Concor 5-unit passenger set.


----------



## DennyM

Vincent said:


> Baldwin Locomotive only built four of these magnificent C-16 dockside switchers. Model railroad companies manufactured thousands of them.


I have a dockside switcher, but I like this one better.


----------



## Vincent

In my opinion, few diesels look sharper than a steamer. This is one of them.


----------



## Old_Hobo

And this is definitely also one of them.....

https://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=474176&stc=1&d=1543645365


----------



## Vincent

Surprisingly, Yes. Its weathered, dirty condition only adds to its sharp appearance.


----------



## Old_Hobo

That's a Proto2000 kit......first one I ever put together, but I never weathered mine....


----------



## Vincent

Good-bye, Sir. And thank you for decades of service to your country.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Good-bye, Sir. And thank you for decades of service to your country.


I mostly agree (he, like every politician had his moments) but gosh darn if that color scheme does not look a lot better on a 747 than it does on a diesel.


----------



## Vincent

YES!!!!! I think this is two locomotives coupled together, but either way, it's a beauty!


----------



## Old_Hobo

Correction.....THEY are beauties.....


----------



## ebtnut

Those Pennsy chunky little switchers were nick-named "Rats". Not sure why; maybe one the SPF's on the board might know.


----------



## ebtnut




----------



## Lemonhawk

The pantographs look extra tall. Must be due to that squat body, looks like there is barely any headroom in there.


----------



## Vincent

Ebtnut, that is a fascinating device. Looking at the off-balanced wheels, I wonder if it actually runs. I also wonder how the motor could turn those wheels. Even if it is only a truck body put on top of a loco chassis, it is an interesting device.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Ebtnut, that is a fascinating device. Looking at the off-balanced wheels, I wonder if it actually runs. I also wonder how the motor could turn those wheels. Even if it is only a truck body put on top of a loco chassis, it is an interesting device.


Look closely - there are connecting rods. That sucker is 8 wheel drive! The automobile driveline is somehow connected to to the axles/wheels.


----------



## Vincent

As fascinating as that device is, Nikola, I cannot find anything connecting the motor to the wheels.


----------



## Lee Willis

Regardless, I definitely do not want a model of one.


----------



## Fire21

People sure devised some make-do machines back in the day!


----------



## ebtnut

I couldn't quite figure out how to type in a description of the unit with the pic. The chassis came from a retired Heisler steam loco. Heislers had a center drive shaft, so the shop guys came up with some way to join the motor/tranny to the the original truck universals. I believe this unit ran in northern Pennsylvania and served a wood chemical plant. 
Check out this site: http://freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=8282&forum_id=46


----------



## Vincent

Ebtnut, I believe you have answered the questions.

There really was such a device, made from left-over parts. The motor sits on top of the chassis and uses a worm drive to connect to the wheels underneath the chassis. You cannot see the worm drive because the wheels are blocking your view.


It SEEMS to be using the truck's motor. But in that case, why not simply attach railroad wheels to the truck and use it as a locomotive? It is also possible that a more powerful motor was used, and the truck body merely covered the motor.

Obviously, the device was impractical, but it really did run.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Vincent said:


> YES!!!!! I think this is two locomotives coupled together, but either way, it's a beauty!


Yep, they sure are.  Yes, I "wanted" a model of this, that itch is scratched.


----------



## Vincent

I finally found them!

Four different versions of these 42 beauties were manufactured from 1926 to 1935, with Pennsylvania Railroad buying all of them. Three of the versions were designed to be used in pairs, but as improvements were made over the decades, all of them were eventually used singly.

I can't find out when they went out of service, but Penn Central inherited some in 1968. The only survivor is in a museum.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

I also have one of the single ones, it's a TMCC set from Lionel, the Ballast train.


----------



## Vincent

Beautiful photo, John. 

Could you explain the unusual design of the middle car?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That's one of Lionel's coal dump cars, it an operating car. I have a black one that I converted to TMCC, I'll probably do this one as well.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> As fascinating as that device is, Nikola, I cannot find anything connecting the motor to the wheels.


The connecting rods tie the wheels together and are fastened opposite the counterweights (why there are counterweights). The shadows in the undercarriage probably are where driveshafts from above somehow connect to geared axles.


----------



## Vincent

Absolutely! Even though I prefer steam locomotives.


----------



## Murv2

Beautiful! But wasted on a freight train. See the extra headlights?


----------



## highvoltage

I agree, looks out of place.

I prefer this:


----------



## Vincent

DEFINITELY!


----------



## Vincent

If the price were right...


----------



## Vincent

It would look interesting.


----------



## Vincent

I'll give this one a "Yes."


----------



## DennyM

I would too.


----------



## Vincent

Controversial. It's an unpowered prop that appeared in several movies and TV shows. It was sometimes moved by an unseen cable in the front, and other times had a trackmobile pushing the train from behind.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Why would that be controversial.....?


----------



## Chops

Nice photo, Vincent. I've often wondered about that locomotive, I would gather it was the one used in "Hell on Wheels." A most Satanic looking contraption, if there ever was one. While fictional, "Hell on Wheels" did a marvelous job of capturing the feel of frontier expansion, and many of the characters, like the tatooed lady and Durant are straight out of the history books.







Olivia Oates


----------



## Vincent

This is an Italian locomotive on a French website. I think it would make an interesting addition to a lay-out.


----------



## DennyM

I'm guessing it's a cab forward. That would be interesting to see running around the layout.


----------



## J.Albert1949

Re Vincent's pic in post 731:

Looks like Southern Pacific wasn't the only railroad to try "cab-forwards".

That one may even pre-date the SP !


----------



## ebtnut

OK, how about a narrow gauge cab-forward on the North Pacific Coast RR from about 1905?


----------



## Vincent

Only if it includes the action figures.


----------



## Lee Willis

Cool locomotives!!


----------



## Lemonhawk

Neat picture. You notice only the guys in front get higher side board protection, poor guys in the trailing cars get zip! Strange gun in front, looks like it has 4 barrels.


----------



## Murv2

Lemonhawk said:


> Neat picture. You notice only the guys in front get higher side board protection, poor guys in the trailing cars get zip! Strange gun in front, looks like it has 4 barrels.


That's called a Nordenfelt, basically an early machinegun.


----------



## Vincent

I don't have any O gauge, but I would still like this one.


----------



## mopac

That is S scale not O.


----------



## Vincent

Yes! Beat up and all.


----------



## ebtnut

Is it live steam?


----------



## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> Is it live steam?


Beats me.


----------



## Vincent

I am amazed at the beauty of tin plate trains.


----------



## mopac

That is a beauty.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

That's a pretty neat looking rig!


----------



## Lee Willis

Good tinplate anything, trains or particularly windup boats and ships from the 1930s, is very cool. I've always wanted one of those big three-foot long tinplate battleships from the early 20th century, but never been able to afford one - last I saw cost over $18K!!!


----------



## DennyM

Very nice tinplate. I've always admired them.


----------



## Vincent

Lee Willis said:


> Good tinplate anything, trains or particularly windup boats and ships from the 1930s, is very cool. I've always wanted one of those big three-foot long tinplate battleships from the early 20th century, but never been able to afford one - last I saw cost over $18K!!!


A real steal at only $122,500!


----------



## Vincent

There was an "Island of Misfit Toys" train set, and there were figures from additional sources. But building an Island of Misfit Toys scene for a Christmas display would be rather difficult today.


----------



## Vincent

Yes, but only because in January I intend to build an underwater railroad that will blend into a pirate lay-out. Otherwise, No.


----------



## Vincent

Same as yesterday


----------



## Vincent

I have to admit that it is snazzy-looking.


----------



## PoppetFlatsRR

Have to admit, the New Haven electric is pretty kool. I keep trying to fit something along those lines into my layout, but just don't have the room where it would go.


----------



## Vincent

Pennsylvania Power & Light had switchers (mostly powered by either compressed air or super-heated water) operating in their own yards. They also had (and still have) their own railcars that are pulled on regular rail lines.


----------



## ebtnut

Somewhere in the pile of yellow boxes I have some pics on one of their fireless locos at work at the Safe Harbor plant along the Susquehanna River. Probably from the late '70's/early '80's.


----------



## Vincent

ebtnut said:


> Somewhere in the pile of yellow boxes I have some pics on one of their fireless locos at work at the Safe Harbor plant along the Susquehanna River. Probably from the late '70's/early '80's.


I'd like to see those. Meanwhile, here's another one.


----------



## Vincent

I don't think so. It doesn't look too interesting.


----------



## Lee Willis

thanks not the best transformer car, I must admit. I have a couple that are pretty nice though. You'll run into one wrth having sometime, or maybe a Schnabel car - MTH makes a great one. Worth having.


----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> I don't think so. It doesn't look too interesting.


 I have this one, because it has my username on it:


----------



## Lee Willis

That is a cool reason to have it highvoltage!


----------



## Old_Hobo

I think that's a very interesting car.....:thumbsup:


----------



## Vincent

HighVoltage, it strikes me that those are the same car with different RR names on them.


----------



## Old_Hobo

There's no fooling you......:laugh:


----------



## Vincent

How would you like to own this beauty?

Not Lois Lane, you knucklehead (Her boyfriend is standing right there). I'm talking about the 1950 Nash Rambler.

My wife found the Superman TV show episodes on YouTube, and the automobiles are fantastic! Over time, they "upgraded" Lois Lane's car with modifications to keep it looking like a new model.


----------



## Vincent

How do you explain away the fact that you always beat Lois Lane to the scene of the crime? Why, you buy a 1953 Nash Healey convertible!

America's first post WW2 sports car, it was expensive and fast. Its luxury interior actually included (Get this!) a built-in cigarette lighter!

Vague records tell us that actor Dick Powell actually owned the car, and he lent it to the Superman TV show for four scenes (in four different episodes). It APPEARS that the car was rented to different studios and appeared in at least one movie. It went through a variety of owners who may not have realized what it was. The current owner found it in poor condition and has restored it.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> How would you like to own this beauty?
> 
> Not Lois Lane, you knucklehead (Her boyfriend is standing right there). I'm talking about the 1950 Nash Rambler.
> 
> My wife found the Superman TV show episodes on YouTube, and the automobiles are fantastic! Over time, they "upgraded" Lois Lane's car with modifications to keep it looking like a new model.


Lois's (Phyllis Coates or Noel Neill?) actual little Nash exists, perfectly restored, and is frequently seen at Long Island car shows. It has 'L Lane' or 'Lois Lane' tags; I forget which.


----------



## Vincent

And here it is--still a beauty!

It sold for $25,500 in a 2017 auction. It got a higher price than some older, scarcer cars because, well, Lois Lane used to own it.


----------



## Nikola

Vincent said:


> And here it is--still a beauty!
> 
> It sold for $25,500 in a 2017 auction. It got a higher price than some older, scarcer cars because, well, Lois Lane used to own it.


No, that's not it. The real one is an East coast car and if I recall correctly, is green with NY tags that spell out her name. I have a photo of it someplace.


----------



## Vincent

Probably, Nikola, we are both correct. Using the license plate on the black and white publicity photo, the current owner found the Vehicle ID Number, and it matches that of the red car. In my opinion, we are discussing the same vehicle. HOWEVER...


RKO Productions did not keep very tight records. It APPEARS that they later modified the car to make it look like a newer model. Also, the show was "low budget," even for the standards of that time.


In one TV episode, they do an aerial shot of Lois driving the car--she is seen from behind, from a distance, and the sudden decrease in lighting makes me believe that they simply did several short scenes of the car that were later spliced into various episodes. In that scene, I suspect that it was a paid driver dressed up to look like Lois Lane from a distance. And there is no guarantee that they used the same car for every scene (although it was the same model).


It SEEMS that the car was known, and it was well cared-for by later owners. I have no problem believing that it was displayed at various car shows before the preset owner bought it in 2017.


"Hurry, Clark! We have to find out if these are the same car!"


----------



## Dennis461

*well, would you buy a model of this?*

well, would you buy a model of this?


----------



## Lee Willis




----------



## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> HighVoltage, it strikes me that those are the same car with different RR names on them.


Yes, I believe they are.


----------



## highvoltage

Lee Willis said:


> That is a cool reason to have it highvoltage!


I thought so too.


----------



## Vincent

Good pictures, Dennis and Lee.

Lee, DID Lionel actually have delivery trucks?


Uhm, I think I answered my own question. The truck wasn't owned by Lionel, but it really did exist.


----------



## Vincent

And now, another amazing adventure of...Lois Lane's car.

Nikola got me interested in more information, and here's what I found:

The most common belief is that Miss Lane drove a 1950 Nash Rambler convertible which was later modified to look like a newer model. "Not So!" exclaim some auto fans. They insist that later episodes showed a customized 1951 Nash Rambler, and even a customized 1953 Nash Rambler.

AND, because Nash Rambler convertibles are nicknamed "The Lois Lane car," there might be some confusion added.


I also noted in some episodes, that when Lois and Clark were in her car, he did the driving.


"I can't let Lois phone in the story before Clark Kent does!"


----------



## Darrenmb

Wife says its ugliest train i own... it was iconic when I was a kid!!!


----------



## Lee Willis

Vincent, I havea model of that Luionel delivery truck. I think Menards made it.


----------



## Vincent

Yes to both of them.


----------



## highvoltage

Lee Willis said:


> Vincent, I have a model of that Lionel delivery truck. I think Menards made it.


You're right, here is the link:

https://www.menards.com/main/home-d...-c-13318.htm?tid=1914833732554723557&ipos=180


----------



## Lee Willis




----------



## Vincent

Lee, that's a sharp picture.


----------



## Vincent

The owner went to a lot of trouble restoring this pre-war tinplate Lionel PRR switcher.


----------



## DennyM

Nice.


----------



## Fire21

Yes, but that IS a model. The original question was, "Would you buy a model of this?" Seems to me we ought to be looking at photos of real things, and answering if we would or would not buy a MODEL of it.


----------



## Old_Hobo

Fire21, that certainly makes sense!

There's no sense of wanting a model of a model......:laugh:


----------



## Vincent

Another tinplate beauty


----------



## Old_Hobo

I would not buy a model of that model......hwell:


----------



## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> I would not buy a model of that model......hwell:


What exactly DO you have in your train lay-out?


----------



## Lee Willis

would not buy that either. Not my kind of loco.


----------



## DJTrains

You should offer online courses on how to do forum postings that people actually read.

The 1st loco would be cool if the upper part were polished copper. At least add some wild flames decals to each side.


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## Old_Hobo

Vincent said:


> What exactly DO you have in your train lay-out?


Uh.....trains, of course.....that's why they call it a train layout....duh.....


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## Vincent

An oddity here is that I would like this for a display piece but not as part of a running train.


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## highvoltage

Vincent said:


> What exactly DO you have in your train lay-out?


The point he's trying to make is the thread is titled "Would you buy a model of this?"

Instead of showing full size items, you're showing models, so in essence the question being asked is "Would you buy a model of a model?" The answer is, no.

Maybe start a thread with the title "Would you buy this model?"


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## Nikola

highvoltage said:


> The point he's trying to make is the thread is titled "Would you buy a model of this?"
> 
> Instead of showing full size items, you're showing models, so in essence the question being asked is "Would you buy a model of a model?" The answer is, no.
> 
> Maybe start a thread with the title "Would you buy this model?"


Reminds me of a factory that builds models of - - - factories.


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> An oddity here is that I would like this for a display piece but not as part of a running train.


You are the best, brother! Now I know what the derrick on my hacked-together work car will look like!


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## Vincent

Old_Hobo said:


> Uh.....trains, of course.....that's why they call it a train layout....duh.....


Old Hobo, I think you're turning mellow! This is the first insult you've posted since Alabama was #1 in football!


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## Old_Hobo

Oh, you wouldn't want to test my mellowness......believe me....

So, why would you consider my answer an insult? You asked what I have on my train layout, and I answered you truthfully.....

Anyway, I could care less about U.S. college football.....it's your constant boastfulness that's irritating.....but you likely already know that.......


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## Chops

Smoke jack, too?


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## Vincent

I certainly would. In fact, I did.

I really don't consider the 1950 Olds 88 an outstanding beauty (mechanically, it was so outstanding that Oldsmobile made it their flagship car). But it was 25% off, and the model is a nice-looking antique car.


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## Lee Willis

Vincent, that is a gorgeous car. I have two O-Gauge '50 Olds 88s and a 98, but none of them is that fastback rear - all have a normal rear window and trunk. My Dad had the '50 Buick equivalent, a fastback coupe just like that.


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## Vincent

A drovers' caboose?

Cattle had to be allowed out of the railcars at regular intervals to exercise, drink, etc. The cattle handlers rode in drovers' cabooses which were sometimes put in the middle of the cattle cars so they could keep a better eye on things.

Often built from old passenger cars or boxcars, some of them were specially built from the ground up. Drovers' cabooses included sleeping and eating facilities.


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## mopac

Cool info Vincent. I had not heard the term.


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## Murv2

Drover's cabooses are cool.


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## Lee Willis

I love 'em. Would like to have several.


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## Fire21

I can see the kit bashers going to work now!


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## Oldnewchoo

That is cool! Does anyone make them or are we on our own?


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## Nikola

Old_Hobo said:


> Oh, you wouldn't want to test my mellowness......believe me..........................................................it's your constant boastfulness that's irritating.....but you likely already know that.......


OH, Vincent is not boastful. He is happy, content, and full of joy. Good for him. Most of us lost that a long time ago.


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## Murv2

Oldnewchoo said:


> That is cool! Does anyone make them or are we on our own?


In HO Athearn, Roundhouse and American Model Builders made or makes then.


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## DennyM

I'd like to see MTH or Atlas make them.


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## Lee Willis

Fire21 said:


> I can see the kit bashers going to work now!


You read my mind!!


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## Stumpy

Peacekeeper Rail Garrison Car










In the late-1980s, military officials were concerned that the United States’ stationary missile silos would be easy targets in the event of a shootout with the Soviets. Enter the Peacekeeper Rail Garrison, a mobile nuclear arsenal consisting of 50 MX missiles kept in specially designed Air Force train cars. The plan called for the trains to spend most of their time stored in reinforced buildings around the country, but during periods of heightened alert, they could scatter across 120,000 miles of commercial railroad track to frustrate Soviet attempts to destroy them. Each of the 25 trains carried two rail cars that housed nuclear missiles. By opening the car’s roof and raising a special launch pad, they could even fire their weapons on the go. Two of these cars plus two engines, two security, a fuel, a launch control, and a maintenance car would make up a complete train. President Ronald Reagan approved plans for the Peacekeeper Rail Garrison in 1986 amid criticisms that it was unnecessary and overly pricey. The project got the axe only five years later, when the end of the Cold War reduced the need for nuclear defense.


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## Vincent

Now there's a railcar that belongs in any Christmas train display!


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## Vincent

Interesting


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## Lee Willis

Vincent said:


> Now there's a railcar that belongs in any Christmas train display!


Oh, I want one, I want one. A whole dozen, so I can have a train of them next Christmas time: _"The Congressional Christmas Gift Express!"_


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## DennyM

Lee Willis said:


> Oh, I want one, I want one. A whole dozen, so I can have a train of them next Christmas time: _"The Congressional Christmas Gift Express!"_


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Lee Willis

Vincent. Where did you find that Naughty Christmas car? I'm serious about trying to find some or if needed make something similar. I can't find any for sale on E-bay.

Edit: I found two after a lot of searching. At least now I know what to look for . . .

I really am going to make that train . . .


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## Vincent

Lee, I got the picture off our 2018 Christmas lay-out thread, which incredibly, I cannot find.


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## Vincent

Now that's a fine-looking locomotive!


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## Oldnewchoo

Always been partial to The Milwaukee Road (sorry. Couldn't help it) yes I'ld buy a model of that Vincent


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## Lee Willis

I did buy a model of it!! Pretty much anyway.


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## Old_Hobo

"Pretty much"?

Looks pretty spot on to me!

Very nice Lee!


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## ebtnut

The model represents the 4-6-4 Hudsons built for the "Hiawathas", capable of 100 mph+ speeds. The prototype photo is one of the old Pacifics MILW rebuilt for lesser named trains. Note the placard on the running board for the "Chippewa". MILW also had some new 4-4-2's built with this same streamstyling treatment.


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## Vincent

Looks sharp Kimosabee! (What? You didn't see the masked rider of the plains and his Indian companion in the background?)

It looks like the drive wheels in your first photo are different than the ones in my photo and your second photo.


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## Old_Hobo

Looks like they are just painted differently....but then, they are 2 slightly different locomotive types....


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## Lee Willis

Old_Hobo said:


> Looks like they are just painted differently....but then, they are 2 slightly different locomotive types....


Well they are slightly different locos but the rialroad was trying to keep them looking alike. Mine is the Hiawatha 4-6-4 as ebtnut observed, while the photo Vincent posted is of a 4-6-2, a slightly smaller (but still damn fast) loco Milwaukee Road used on other trains, not its flagship Hiawatha. Like N&W did with its Ks and Js, Milwaukee Road used the same styling/streamlining on its big dogs and slightly smaller locos, to gain a common look and image. Smart thinking. 

It is am MTH Premier model, I think PS3, and has what i think are called "Scullen" drivers - they were a different way of making drivers that would be rotationally balanced for the driver rods - but I'm no expert on that. 

And yes, that is the Lone Ranger and Tonto in the background. They are among the 71 TV and Movie and Book detectives and law enforcement heros I have on the layout. They have to approve of any new loco that is put on the layout. They have incredible taste when it comes to trains!!!


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## Vincent

No, there is no Black River Valley Railroad. But it sure is a nice-looking engine.


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## Vincent

Well, it IS unusual enough to spark interest.


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## Nikola

Vincent said:


> Well, it IS unusual enough to spark interest.


That is perfect for my tiny layout!


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## Oldnewchoo

What is/was it used for?


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## Vincent

Oldnewchoo said:


> What is/was it used for?


It is listed as an ore car. Hoppers had been successfully used for coal, but specially-designed ore cars used space better.


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## ebtnut

It is an iron ore car. I think it is 70 ton capacity. It is short because iron ore is very heavy, and it doesn't take much to make a full load. If I'm not mistaken, the car has been sprayed with some type of foam insulation to help keep the load from freezing into the car in winter weather.


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## highvoltage

Correct, a 70 ton ore car. The picture in Vincent's post is a 1/29th scale car, which I found on this web page:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/GScaleore.html


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## ebtnut

It is an iron ore car, capacity 70 tons. Because iron ore is so dense, ore cars are much shorter for their load capacity than, say, coal hopper cars. It looks like this car was sprayed with some sort of foam insulation to prevent the load from freezing into the car body.


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## ebtnut

Sorry for the double post. I got an error message the first time I tried so didn't think it went through.


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## Vincent

I admit being surprised, but I do consider this an interesting addition to a lay-out.


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## Fire21

Should we change the title of this thread to "Would you buy this model?"


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## Old_Hobo

Forget it Fire21....we already suggested it, he just doesn't get it.....:goofball:


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## Lee Willis

Old_Hobo said:


> Forget it Fire21....we already suggested it, he just doesn't get it.....:goofball:


You just don't know guys. Remember, this is a posting by Vincent. He can get tricky at times. 

For all I know, that is a real locomotive, in a photo taken by a model camera!! 

Anyway, that is a very cool, old worn out loco. Wonderful scene.


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## jlc41

I like Vincent's posting, he comes up with some very interesting and unique items.

Joe


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## highvoltage

Lee Willis said:


> You just don't know guys. Remember, this is a posting by Vincent. He can get tricky at times.
> 
> For all I know, that is a real locomotive, in a photo taken by a model camera!!
> 
> Anyway, that is a very cool, old worn out loco. Wonderful scene.


Agreed, some very nice picks in here. It's just that the OCD among us (me included) get squirmy at the mismatch between thread title and some of the posts.


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## Nikola

Youse guyz are spending too much time separating the pepper from the fly sh1t. Chill and enjoy this terrific thread.


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## Fire21

I agree with highvoltage. The OCD in me wants titles and posts to match. I struggle to accept poor punctuation, poor spelling, and poor paragraphing. I apologize to those I offend...but I can't help it!  

:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Nikola

Fire21 said:


> I agree with highvoltage. The OCD in me wants titles and posts to match. I struggle to accept poor punctuation, poor spelling, and poor paragraphing. I apologize to those I offend...but I can't help it!
> 
> :smilie_daumenpos:


Thank you for clarifying. We appreciate your honesty and will do our best to accommodate your preferences.





Buy th e way; anyone hear no where're me can buy sum model's of model's?




(Sorry, I am just in that kind of mood tonight.)


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## PoppetFlatsRR

Sorry, I come on here to have fun. Post my ideas, look for other ideas. I am not an English student preparing for an exam. I did that many years ago. I am not seeking a grade for posts, but obviously I have failed in others eyes. 

I don't always spell check and my fingers don't always go where I want them. I suggest not reading my posts if they don't measure up to your standards, or to just laugh at my stupidity. Makes no difference to me. If I have to pass and spelling test to be on the site, then cancel my membership immediately. Sorry if that offends anyone!


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## Fire21

Hey everyone! This is a fun site. If your post bothers me, that's my problem, not yours. As I've said, my Dad was a printer, and i grew up proofreading everything. I know others aren't nearly as particular as I am, so please don't take offense at my ramblings. 

Nikola, ewe kan bye sum mahdles at thu hobie stoar. :laugh:

:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Stan D

I would substitute "ugly" with "different". And therefore, yes.


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## Nikola

Fire21 said:


> Nikola, ewe kan bye sum mahdles at thu hobie stoar. :laugh:
> 
> :smilie_daumenpos:


LOL, good one!


BUT: Where is Vincent? Not like him to be away so long. Hope you are OK, brother.


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## Lee Willis

No way, absolutely not. I can't believe AutoCult thinks they can sell 240 of these models, but maybe there are 240 masochists out there who want to torture themselves with something horribly ugly! Ninety dollars. I would take it if it was free.

It was a real car guys. At least the demo version. Big (the windshield is from a Peterbilt or Kenworth big rig). Ugh.

Here is a link to more about it: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/auto...d-lots-of-bling-it-was-way-ahead-of-its-time/


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## NorfolkSouthernguy

I don’t know I like unique items. I think they have a lot of character and not the cookie cutter mold that we have have seen a million times. 

I am not saying that I would buy all these models but being different is interesting. I have been known to purchase what many may call odd or sort of useless things in my time.


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## Lee Willis

No!! Definitely not!!


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## gunrunnerjohn

Lee, I think every RR needs one of those, why wouldn't you model that?


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## Lehigh74

Looks like something that John would motorize and put cruise in. You could run it behind the hot dog car and the clown mobile.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Bob, I couldn't use a flushing sound, maybe you can suggest a sound track?


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## cole226

Lee Willis said:


> View attachment 489600
> 
> 
> No!! Definitely not!!



With certain members of Congress "objecting" to our poor cows don't get them started on _*porta potties*_ :cheeky4:


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## Panther

Lee Willis said:


> View attachment 489600
> 
> 
> No!! Definitely not!!


Can you imagine using this, and all of a sudden you hear a loud blast from a diesel Horn.

Dan


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## Lee Willis

Panther said:


> Can you imagine using this, and all of a sudden you hear a loud blast from a diesel Horn.
> 
> Dan


Or the brake slips and you feel the thing moving down a slightly slope.


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## highvoltage

Panther said:


> Can you imagine using this, and all of a sudden you hear a loud blast from a diesel Horn.
> 
> Dan


Might accomplish the task quickly.


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## Dennis461

*I'm guessing no to this one*

I'm guessing no to this one...


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## Old_Hobo

Maybe if we could figure out what it's supposed to be......? :laugh:


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## Nikola

What happened to this thread?



What happened to Vincent?


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## Collins77

Vincent said:


> I found these photos while researching locomotives. They are all real.





















Grandpa? Is that you?


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