# how to improve traction Lionel 2353



## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

I run an old Lionel 2353 around the Christmas tree every year. This year I added a 4th car. But with the load of the 4th car, the forward drive wheels spin. It seems to go ok in reverse. Is there some way I can improve the forward wheel traction, or is there some other problem happening. Thanks!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Some of my smaller units were slipping and I decided to locate the problem. 
Turns out, my track was not flat. A few screws into the ole plywood, and away she goes.


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

Update - the train spins in forward with NO cars, but runs just fine in reverse with or without cars. Now I'm really confused. I tried cleaning the wheels and track with alcohol but same results. Its been running just fine all week and just started spinning today. Please help me out here, i'm stumped.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can't believe that four cars is a problem. Have you lubed all the cars to make sure they roll free? I've pulled 30 cars with a dual-motored SD-80, so four with a dual-motored locomotive seems a bit weak. Are you SURE both motors are getting power and running? Maybe it's dragging the rear motor along for the ride, that would put a major crimp in it's getalong!


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I can't believe that four cars is a problem. Have you lubed all the cars to make sure they roll free? I've pulled 30 cars with a dual-motored SD-80, so four with a dual-motored locomotive seems a bit weak. Are you SURE both motors are getting power and running? Maybe it's dragging the rear motor along for the ride, that would put a major crimp in it's getalong!


As I said, it runs just fine in reverse but only spins in forward even with NO cars. What the heck does that mean?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't think the rear motor is running. I have a 2353, and it is a puller. It will pull more than 20 cars. The limitation is the couplers coming apart and/or the cars coming off the track around curves. I suggest you take the shell off of the loco and see if both motors are running. The 2353 has magnetraction, and so there is some huge drag on the loco for the front wheels to spin.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Most likely problem is a wire broken off the rear motor.


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

forgive my ignorance but i'm a bit of a novice with these trains. Do BOTH motors pull in BOTH directions? I was thinking that one ran in forward and the other ran in reverse. maybe not. Now I'm wondering if the e-unit relay is only allowing the front motor to pull in forward, but somehow allowing both to run in reverse. Is that possible?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The E unit is OK. Don't mess with it.

Both motors go in the same direction, and both run when the loco is going forward or reverse. However, due to the trucks swiveling as the loco goes around curves, it is not unusual for a wire to break off where it is soldered onto the motor. Check the wiring, and run the loco with the shell removed. You can take the shell off by removing two screws and carefully sliding the shell off. You could also have something like a screw jammed in the wheels of the aft motor. The magnetraction will sometimes caused bits of steel to be picked up and get into the works.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

A word of warning. If the rear motor is jammed, you can overheat it and burn out the windings if you try to run it.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

To remove the shell, there is one screw in the front. After removing the screw, gently slide the shell forward. It is held by two clips in the rear.


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## Badwolf & Arizona RR (Jun 17, 2011)

I had the same problem with my K-Line MP-15. One motor wasn't working. Took it to a repair guy and it was a simple solder job. The repair still was above my pay grade (I can't solder for a hill of beans). The engine runs fine now.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When was the last time the loco was lubed? To lube a 2353, you have to disassemble the motors and take the trucks off of the chassis. It it was lubed some time ago with grease, the grease may have hardened which may keep the motor from turning. I bought a 2333 a few years that had the gearboxes full of rock hard grease. I took it apart and cleaned it out with WD-40 (to soften the grease) and brake clean. I then oiled it with 5W-20 motor oil. It now runs great. I also bought a 736 that was locked up due to dried grease. I softened the grease with WD-40 and then oiled it with 5W-20 and it now runs fine. 

You should be able to turn the wheels with your thumb. If they don't turn, find the problem and fix it. I have seen serious damage done to locos due to poor or no lubrication.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

Tfret, if you are somewhat handy and are not afraid of soldering and such, send pictures of all 4 sides of your loco. We can show you which screw to remove. Then send close up pictures of the motors. I'll bet somone can find the problem.

Isn't the internet great!

My 626 came with the ground wire broken off the rear truck and the coil wire broken off the motor.

A little quality time with the soldering iron, and I had a new toy that works.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The screw to remove the shell is at the front underneath the coil coupler. You have to turn the front truck to one side to see the screw.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree with all the others, I don't believe the rear motor is running. Note that running in reverse would be expected, since pushing the dead motor truck in front is a lot easier than dragging it in back.

All you have to do is support the car with the wheels suspended, and connect a transformer to the frame and one of the pickups. You'll be able to see if both motors are running.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If the front spins then the back may be binding. A look at the brass worm gear will tell. Normally the axle bushings wear to a point the slop goes to the worm gear, then kaput. The gear is in the truck under the horizontal motor.


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

OK, here is what's going on. Running the train with the shell off I have determined that both motors run fine in reverse. But only the front motor runs in forward. I can see the armature spinning in both motors going in reverse but only the forward armature runs in forward. SO, does the rear motor need to be disassembled and overhauled, or is a contact not making correctly in the e-unit when I switch to forward? All wires are secure and I see no evidence of any mechanical jam in the wheels or gear boxes. What do you think?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It does sound like an E unit problem. If it were mine, I would check the drum in the E unit to make sure it has not gotten hot and become misshapen. Then check the finger contacts to make sure they are all contacting the drum. Be gentle with them because they are somewhat fragile. Since the motor runs in one direction, the most likely problem is dirt on the drum as all the fingers have to work both when the loco runs forward and when it runs in reverse. I would not recommend you disassemble the E unit unless the drum is bad. You also shouldn't need to disconnect any wires.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Under O gauge forum, click find a manual to read, then scroll down T mans list to find some helpful posts.

This one there is for the e unit,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3040

It might help you some, even if you don't want to rip it apart there are pictures of what servoguy is telling you to look for.

Check it out, but if you do need to know ask here. 

Check the wires on the e unit too.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you want to test the E unit, set the loco on blocks so the motors can run. Remove the E unit. There is a bottom cover on the E unit which needs to be removed. Using clip leads, connect your transformer to the roller pickup and the loco frame. Hold the E unit in your hand so it doesn't short and power up the loco. Cycle the E unit so the loco is running forward. Using something like a toothpick, gently touch the contacts on the E unit to find which one is not making contact. Be very gentle with the contacts as they are fragile. When you touch the contact that is not making contact with the drum, the rear motor should run.

If you want to bend the contacts, turn off the transformer and gently bend the contacts by pushing on them near the insulation boards that they are attached to. It shouldn't take much.

You can check the drum while you have the E unit out.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hold on here, guys ...

Perhaps you've all thought this through more than I have, but ...

If there was a problem with the e-unit, then wouldn't BOTH motor not be running in the forward direction? It seems to me that the problem could be a short with one of the wires that runs from the first motor (directely after the e-unit) further downstream to the second motor. Take a look at the wiring diagram ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/f3-1.pdf

Isn't the 2nd motor simply wired in parallel to the first motor?

Regards,

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The motors are in parallel, I can't believe this is the E-unit.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Is there an echo in here?  I think we're on to something, though.

I wonder if the problem could be a worn brush or non-springy brush spring in the disfunctional motor? With torque on the motor in one direction, there's just enough pressure for the brush to make contact with the commutator; but with torque in the other direction, the armature shifts a little further away from the brushes, enough to have a gap, with no current flow?

Just another thought. I'd wire some banana leads to power the loco, and tilt the loco on either side to see if there's any variance.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, you are right. The motors are wired in parallel, so it can't be the E unit.

The rear motor has some kind of problem which, as TJ suggests, could be a stuck brush. 

I just took the shell off of my 2353 to check on the motor. The motor drives a straight cut spur gear, so the armature doesn't move back and forth as it changes direction. This is unlike the vertical motors. 

Most likely there is a problem in the gearbox. The gearboxes don't get lubed as they should because it requires dis-assembly of the motor and gearbox. Someone on this forum talked about shimming the drive shaft that drives the wheels as it can develop end play due to wear of the bearings. My 2353 has a lot of hours on it that were put on it before I got it. This is based on the pickup roller wear. 

If it were mine, I would completely dis-assemble both trucks and lube everything with 5W-20 motor oil. I would clean the brushes and the brush holders and make sure the brushes were not sticking. 

BTW, can you rotate both motors in both directions by using your thumb to turn the wheels? If not, you have a problem in the gearbox.


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

well I disassembled the e-unit, cleaned and re-tensioned the contacts, re-assembled and have the same results. I can move the wheels by hand in either direction, indicating there is no mechanical problem. next I will disassemble the rear motor and go through it good. all the wiring and solder connections look good.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My motors did not work as a pair so I removed one. Check the axles for play. The motor does have an oil hole over the shaft, my 2333 has one. These motors have to run as a pair. The motors may not have any problems at all, they just work at different speeds on the same voltage.
Actually I replaced the bushings with sealed ball bearings. At $18.00 it was worth it considering $1.00 per bushing .


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Even though the motors are not perfectly matched, they will run at nearly the same speed, and the torque required to move the loco will be fairly evenly split between the motors. At this point I believe the problem is with the brushes of the rear motor. That is where I would start. Take the brush plate off and clean everything. Make sure the brushes don't stick in the brush plate.


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

I agree with you servoguy, the problem is with the motor. I'll try to get into it tonight, but if I have to tear down the whole motor it probably won't happen until the weekend. I'll keep you posted on my progress. Thanks for all the feed back from everyone!


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## tfret (Dec 23, 2008)

OK, last night i removed and disassembled the rear motor. I found nothing obviously wrong. The brushes are about 1/4" long. I didn't have any electrical contact cleaner, so I cleaned all the parts with throtle body cleaner. It flushed a lot of dirt and grime out of the armature. There was a lot of dirt on the armature plate and packed between the gaps of the three plate sections. I then oiled the armature bearing with 30W oil and greased the bear box in the truck. Put it all back together and now it runs just fine. I'm not sure what the problem actually was, perhaps just dirt. Putting the train on blocks and powering it with clip leads, I can tell the rear motor does produce less torque than the front. But for now anyway it seems to be running okay. Thanks for all the valuable feedback. Merry CHRISTmas!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Fabulous! Very glad to hear the news. A clean armature is a happy armature! It's important to not only clean the copper 3-segment face of the armature (commutator), but also the little grooves between each of the 3 segments.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Glad to hear you got it running.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I guess it really was dragging the rear motor along for the ride.  Good job sorting it out.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It helps to grease the "bear" box too.

Spell check won't help with that goof.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I would have used oil in the gearbox as I have only had bad experiences with grease.


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