# To much smoke? Smoke unit burning up?



## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

I picked up an extra 4-4-2 for the Christmas layout. Ran it for a while night before last, ran well pulling 6 including a whistle tender. Tried it tonite with my daughter present and we were getting WAY TO MUCH smoke At first, being a grinning idiot I'm thinking Jackpot! how cool is this! And my daughter is saying daddy, this doesn't seem right. Then she starts coughing. Hmm, mebbe this ain't right.

Took it back up to the shop and compared the smoke unit to 2 others I had out (all are the newer type, not shown in my Greenberg book) The tested the first 2 for control purposes, but when I hooked up the culprit, I had smoke coming out almost right away and much more than normal, definitely a burnt odor as opposed to the odor I should have got with the scented oils I use. Also the base got damn hot. 

The 4-4-2 is a conventional train set loco #8632. It looks virtually unused. Otherwise it seems to run well except. Also on both transformers I got a short circuit warning (flashing green light). The loco has the on/off switch so worst case I could run it without smoke, but I'd rather get it figured out.

I did put fluid in the thing so I can't imagine that's the problem. It was quite spectacular there for a minute or two. If I need to open the thing, if T-Man has another video like the wheel and truck thing for the smoke unit I would be very grateful. Kinda hoping the resistor or whatever inside is just defective. Not that the units are expensive it's just another damn thing to have to work on.

TIA


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

My first guess would be that someone replaced the smoke resistor and didn't use the 27 ohm one that comes stock in those, but rather one of the lower value ones that draws a lot more current, gets a lot hotter, and makes a lot of smoke (_for a short time_).

The fix is probably getting the correct 27 ohm resistor and wick material and rebuilding the smoke unit.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

i have two of those units. they do put out a decent amount of smoke but it shouldn't be a burning smell. take the shell off and see if you can see anything obvious first. than if u don't see anything out of the ordinary than take the smoke unit apart.


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah when I took it apart last night there was no visible damage. But when you turn it on smoke is coming out everywhere of the smoke unit at the same time. What I don't get it is, the engine looks hardly used, there's is no scratching on the wheels indicating having been run, no indication that Benny Allthumbs had tried to "improve it" and it ran fine for a couple of days before this.

Now I just need to be able to take the smoke unit apart, I have 2 others on the bench so as to compare them when surgery commences but as of yet I am unsure on how to take them apart.

Frank


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

To be honest ive never had to take apart so i would be interested on what you find. I mean this might be a real stretch but maybe the batting is burning up


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the wick material is burning, either the smoke resistor is too hot or you've let it run out of fluid.


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If the wick material is burning, either the smoke resistor is too hot or you've let it run out of fluid.


I was really sure I had put fluid in it. I have Mega Steam. Bayberry and Gingerbread. 

I took a good look at the 3 units I have. The 2 old school ones have an interesting add on. A big honkin' resistor (brown with silver and gray bands) in parallel with the lamp socket and the smoke chamber. It runs to the back and is soldered to a copper tab. On the arm that pushes the cylinder is another copper tab wired to the ground terminal. The tabs make contact at the bottom of the lever's stroke. There is the remains of another wire soldered between the resistor and copper tab. Thinking that that is the initiator/interrupter for the Sound of Steam.

The new one does not have this. There are 2 power leads going to it with the lamp and smoke unit wired separately, so that the switch turns off the smoke and not the light.

Will meter the resistors in the smoke chamber tonight, but unless I can open them up I can't eyeball what's doing in there.

The units appear to be Seuthe type units labeled 8141-50 in the schematics and are marked 236-54 on the back plate behind the cylinder.

C'mon guys, does no one know how to open the chamber to get to the resistor and check or change the batting? I don't mind poking around but I'd prefer not to wreck one just to figure out how to get the others apart.

I have spent the last day and a half searching here and the web looking for this, lotsa talk about unsleeving the resistor and improving the batting, not a lot about how to get from here to there. 

Frank


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Ugh! I intensely dislike the Seuthe smoke units!


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

If I'm reading the meter right (it's been a while since I used it regularly and the dial is logarythmic) but the 2 "good" show about 30 ohms but the smoky one is much higher. 

More resistance, more heat. yes?, no? According to the quick refresher on ohms law and energy disipation.

So do I toss it and buy another or can I pull it apart and fish out the resistor and replace it with a proper one.

I guess I'll send an email to Lionel Tech support and see what they say. They have been pretty helpful so far.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, more resistance, less heat. If you put a 1 meg-ohm resistor in there, you'd get no heat.


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

The equations I saw last night suggested that the greater the resistance the greater amperage (ohm's law V= IR, V/R = I) and that the excess was dissipated as heat.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You better look at Ohm's law again! 

Let's take an example, say we have 16 volts on your standard 27 ohm resistor.

Compute current: I = V/R 

Results: .59 amps = 16 / 27

Now let's take the example of my megohm resistor with the same 16 volts.

Results: .000016 amps = 16 / 1,000,000

Now, let's calculate power.

Computer Power in watts: P = V * I

Results: 9.44 watts = 16 * .59

Results: .000256 watts = 16 * .000016

I think 9.44 watts will get the resistor a lot hotter than .000256 watts.


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

Well, it's been forever since school and I have to relearn all this in a more practical way.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I get to use it in a practical way almost every day, so it comes back quicker.


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## ftauss (Sep 18, 2012)

It's the one thing I dislike about my job as a developer. It is strictly mental, no physical, no manual component. I do a number of things off work that satisfy the physical/manual needs I have. The wife learned long ago to stop asking why I take things apart.  As long as it works better after I put it back together or at least as well as it did before. I've had a real itch to get into electrical components mainly lights for static models, but the sound, etc possibilities are very intruiging.

I've done a bit of household wiring but the components are all standard and you don't really have to worry about ohm's law when putting in lights. At least not yet.

When I bought my first pistol years ago, a 1911A1, within an hour after getting it home I had it completely disassembled on my workbench. Just wanted to see how it worked. It would embarass me to say how many cars and engines are sitting on my bench in various states of disassembly, ckeaning and repair. About the only thing I can't do is pull wheels or the rivets so I have a Lionel service center for that. Of course I only give him the parts that need riveting to keep my labor costs down. 

Frank


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I live close to Henning's Trains and Harry is a principal in the modular club I belong to. They have a very nice workshop with tons of wheel pullers and presses for almost any repair task. I do electronics for him, and I let him do stuff that I don't have the tools for. 

I can take apart a 1911 in my sleep, I have a few of them in my collection. One of my favorite range guns.


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