# Electronic Track Cleaning Circuit



## jprampolla

Hi Folks,

I am new here.

Does anyone have an academic or real interest in Peter J. Thorne's high frequency alternating current track cleaning circuit? Although I run mostly AC toy trains, in a few circumstances with DC (like with Lionel O27 handcars running on DC) I could use the benefits of the HF AC track cleaning. Although Gaugemaster currently makes a device, I would like to build one if the parts are currently available or an updated parts list was ever developed. I built Peter J Thorne's HF AC lighting generator 20 years ago for an HO project but someone had given me a new parts list and Kalmbach sent me a photo copy of his out-of-print circuit.

Also, does anyone know which of the Thorne books had that track cleaning circuit? 

I have researched the device/circuit on the web over the past few years, pondered all the pros and cons, and feel the benefits outweigh the risks for me.

Thanks!

Take care, Joe.


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## xrunner

What is the theory behind this cleaning idea? (how does it actually clean metal?)


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## jprampolla

As I understand it, when the locomotive stalls due to dirty track, the device detects the loss of DC flowing through the loco and zaps the track with HF AC that creates an arc the bridges the gap and burns off the dirt. As soon as the electrical contact has been restored to the loco, the HF AC shuts off. I have been told by a hobbyist that used one on a club layout (N scale if I remember correctly) that it works but does pit wheels and rail. I would like to experiment with the circuit to see exactly what damage it might do, if any.

It isn't compatible with DCC.


Take care, Joe.


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## NIMT

If your running any electronics they would surly be fried by such a device!


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## xrunner

jprampolla said:


> I have been told by a hobbyist that used one on a club layout (N scale if I remember correctly) that it works but does pit wheels and rail.


Well, that sounds lovely.


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## jprampolla

Hi Folks,

I would not be using it with anything with any type of electronics, just a plain DC motor, perhaps a couple diodes or a rectifier if that. As far as the pitting is concerned, I have heard that the pitting is not necessarily from the HF AC, but arcing in general. Many hobbyists in Z scale use the device without reporting any damage. There was the Relco about 20 years ago, and the Gaugemaster is still being manufactured. It has some very useful applications for some hobbyists, but not the general model railroading community. But people running simple trains, straight DC, can use it, especially those who don't have time or the skill to fiddle with stalling trains. It is not for everyone, but does fascinate me. 

Take care, Joe.


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## tjcruiser

I recalled a prior thread here on the forum, but not much info there ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3811

TJ


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## jprampolla

Thanks for posting that info!


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## NIMT

*The last paragraph explains #1 why they don't market them in the USA and #2 why if you were to make a copy cat version you can get in big trouble using it! Messing with radio signals is not a small thing!*

*How does an electronic rail cleaner work?*

(Chris Dadson again) Various electrical track cleaning systems (including Relco) produce an output of between 150 and 250 Volts AC in the frequency range 50 - 200 kHz. When the track cleaning system detects dirt (i.e. electrically detects an open circuit) the unit produces an AC output and superimpose it onto the track. This AC high voltage causes an arc between the track and wheels as the resulting current bridges the high resistance gap caused by the crud. This high temperature arc collapses (i.e. incinerates) the ‘dry’ crud or dirt, and evaporates the ‘moist’ crud or dirt - but in neither case will it remove it entirely. Most crud is blown off as black particles by the arcing onto the surrounding track ballast, but the process will always leave some resulting residue on the rails. How much depends entirely upon the quantity and type of dirt or crud there in the first place. 

*Does a Relco really clean the track?*

(Still Chris Dadson) The Relco process is an ever-increasing circle, albeit a very slow process. The track cleaning system in removing the crud it deposited previously will leave yet a further amount of dirt. Constant use of these cleaning systems masks this constant build up as high frequency AC currents can penetrate through dirt far more easily than DC currents. This can easily be proven. If anyone has operated a layout using one of these systems for several months without any other form of track cleaning, try reverting back to conventional 12 volt DC operation and see how reliably the locos run particularly at slow speed. 

Relco and other similar systems do tend to minimize the build up of the electro plated film caused by current flow through two dissimilar metals. Electro plating is a direct action of DC and is thus more or less avoided using AC systems. An important point to note is that this electro plated layer can only effectively be removed by conventional abrasive track cleaning. 
*What Voltage does a Relco produce?*

Chris Gardner observed that a Relco can sometimes give a mild electric shock through the rails, but Chris Dadson explained that the high voltages used by these systems present no danger to the majority of people due to the diminutive current. The actual voltage is believed to be in the order of 150-200 volts. 

*Radio Interference and other side effects*

Chris Dadson spoke with authority on this subject as he had once been a Radio Interference Investigator. 

These track cleaning systems are potentially dangerous devices as a cause of RFI, and will undoubtedly contravene the latest mandatory EMC Regulations. David Overall had mentioned the “sparks” effect and Chris explained that the track and associated wiring become an effective and reasonably efficient radio aerial system. Admittedly the radiation from the track wiring can be minimized by following a few simple guidelines, but there is absolutely no way of preventing those sparks and the track radiating radio noise up to a few hundred MHz right across the radio spectrum (remember that ‘spark’ transmitters were the first generation radio transmitters many years ago). Not only can this radiation cause interference to neighbors' radios and TV's, but can also interfere with sensitive communication radio receivers several miles away. Putting the EMC Regulations aside, the UK’s 1949 Wireless Telegraphy Act (+ amendments) empowers Radio Interference Investigators with extreme authority (comparable to the police and the VAT man) to enter premises, etc. Cause interference to any military, maritime, aviation or emergency services radio system and the offending track cleaner will be “seized” by the Investigator with no right of appeal. Stern words, so be warned!


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## jprampolla

Hi NIMT,

The Gaugemaster is sold in the US and used by hobbyists in the US. I heard the same things when I was building the Thorne HF AC generator 20 years ago and told all sorts of things that never happened. I appreciate your reply, but I am not discouraged. The circuit has merit and can be used in the US.

Take care, Joe.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, having all command/control stuff, you won't see that contraption anywhere near my trains! :thumbsdown:


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## xrunner

jprampolla said:


> As I understand it, when the locomotive stalls due to dirty track, the device detects the loss of DC flowing through the loco and zaps the track with HF AC that creates an arc the bridges the gap and burns off the dirt.


The problem is that "zapping" dirt, whatever the dirt is made of, won't make it disappear. Matter cannot be destroyed by "zapping" it. It may be loosened, it may be burned, but it won't necessarily be removed. If it's not removed by a cloth or other material it won't be gone and will simply be run into the rails again by the next car or engine.

Have you ever gone to the car wash when your car was pretty dirty, and used a wand to clean it (not toughing the paint with any type of sponge or brush)? You'll find it isn't really clean. Unless you touch the paint with something such as a sponge or mitt, there will still be some dirt on the paint. Same thing here. Even if I believed the device loosened the dirt, you would still have to touch the rails with something to pick up the dirt. And if you have to do that, then you might as well just clean the track as usual. :dunno:


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## jprampolla

Hi Folks,

I am not trying to sell anyone on the idea; I just would like to try it. The issue is that it is helpful for preventing stalling and a certain amount of build-up on wheels and track. In my original post I asked if anyone if had an academic interest. 

I have a couple older HO items that would benefit from such a device. They are just DC motors, one a can motor and another an open frame with replaceable brushes. If you haven't run the trains for a while, the time it takes to clean the wheels and rails makes an impromptu operating session impossible, especially with a temperamental locomotive when you are already burning the candle at both ends.

As I said in an earlier post, when I built Thorne's HF AC lighting generator, I heard all the same things but I wasn't discouraged. The circuit works fine. No electrical interference, no authority came to my door with a search warrant, and no damage has occurred in 20 years of use. Ask the old-school trolley and streetcar guys about HF AC lighting and you'll no hear any complaints!

Could you guys just keep an open mind? Where is the spirit of adventure here? Try to think outside the box!

Take care, Joe.


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## T-Man

To answer your original question, The circuit is not in one of the four known books. He briefly explains how one works on page 80 of the blue cover book published in 1994 Model RailRoad ELectronics. I have never seen a fifth book.
Blue Yellow Red and Black. Which one do you have?
He explained that it only works when an engine is not running at 250 htz and 350 volt pulses.

I checked indexes and the front and chapter headings. All I can do is a page by page but I do not remember seeing one.


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## xrunner

Oh I have an open mind but you also have the responsibility of addressing our questions if you post this thread.



jprampolla said:


> As I understand it, when the locomotive stalls due to dirty track, the device detects the loss of DC flowing through the loco


I don't understand how it can tell the difference between the loss of current due to a locomotive stalling, and some other desired change in current flow to the tracks. What if you have 2 or 3 locos running at different speeds, some perhaps stopping and starting quickly. All this activity causes changes in current flow all the time, not to mention other devices that may be connected to the power supply. So how can it differentiate between desired changes in current as opposed to the change it thinks is a stalled loco? What type of circuit does this and how does it work?


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## jprampolla

Hi T-Man,

Many thanks for the information and research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I only have Thorne's "Model Railroad Electronics, Basic Concepts to Advanced Projects." His HF AC generator is from a book I don't have or even have the title, but it is on pages 63-65. Kalmbach sent me a copy of the 3 pages in 1990. I have an updated parts list if you are interested. Thorne used some transistors that weren't available when I built his circuit. There is a redesign of his HF AC lighting circuit in the book mentioned above, but the parts list is omitted from that book, but I do have a correction page that Kalmbach sent me after I asked, twice. I built his original circuit.

Miniatronics offered an HF AC track cleaner for a while (back in the late 1990s) and advertised that it was Thorne's design. I guess I just assumed he published the circuit. Perhaps it appeared in Model Railroader at some point.

Take care, Joe.


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## jprampolla

Hi Xrunner,

I think I am being very responsible and addressing all questions that I can answer. I haven't even seen the circuit or tried it yet!

I think you can assume that if Relco, Gaugemaster, and Miniatronics all produced these devices, and Gaugemaster still makes one, they work and are enjoyed by some hobbyists. Am I willing to risk premature wear on wheels, rail, and motors (if in fact that is the case)? Yes, in some cases because the alternative is a locomotive that doesn't run. 

Take care, Joe.


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## xrunner

jprampolla said:


> I think I am being very responsible and addressing all questions that I can answer. I haven't even seen the circuit or tried it yet!


Perhaps, but the questions remain ...



> I think you can assume that if Relco, Gaugemaster, and Miniatronics all produced these devices, and Gaugemaster still makes one, they work and are enjoyed by some hobbyists.


Joe, I wouldn't assume that at all. What I _would_ assume is that the device sells and makes a profit. Lots of products sell and make profits for their sellers, even though they don't work very well and/or are based on pseudo science and flawed engineering. Just take a look at many high-end audiophile products such as the audio cables that are touted to make their systems "sound" better. It's all junk science, but that stuff sells, and for a huge amount of money. It sells because the buyers perceive that the product improves their experience, even though there is no measurable data to back it up. 

So for the time being, even though you seem like a very nice person, I don't accept that the circuit really does anything useful, at least until you provide more data.


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## T-Man

OK you guys are fast. The pages belong to a high frquency lighting generator not a cleaner. You want the black cover.Practical Projects for Model Railroaders, 1983 sixth printing. Amazon carries these used for about 6 bucks. 

I did find an updated throttle design by the author in 2006 in Awrr.com
Also he was in 1986 model RRer with a correction to"34 new Electronic rr Projects. If you have this issue I would like a copy of the article.

ALso look into ROb Paisley for Train circuits A lot of good stuff here for the do it yourselfer.

The 1986 Model RRer issue was the only Thorne article hit.


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## gunrunnerjohn

xrunner said:


> So for the time being, even though you seem like a very nice person, I don't accept that the circuit really does anything useful, at least until you provide more data.


More importantly, putting 300+ volt spikes on the rails will damage many locomotives. Only the very basic models with no sound and just a direct motor connection would seem to be candidates for running in this environment. Any electronics would be at serious risk with this thing I would imagine.


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## T-Man

John the article was done at the dawn of DCC. From the decsription I read the track cleaner operates only when no ights or engines are on the track. Maybe the other models he discusses are different. Just look at the time difference and I understand your concern. The throttle he has built is not DCC but a pacematic like an MRC throttle which were coming out in the 80's.


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## gunrunnerjohn

If there is nothing on the track, what is the circuit sensing to "zap" the track? His description says it's sensing the reduced current flow.

The whole thing sounds like "junk science" to me.


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## T-Man

Well it was the eighties!










This is what I mean by red, yellow, black and blue.










The discussion did fan out fast.

Joe, please do a thread if you make it. I also would like to see the throttle. The only good project I built on a bread board was the diesel horn. It was more like a VW bug horn. After all I am a Thorne fan very little can be found about him on the net. 


They are getting out of date, other books are now on the market. Some are pricey.

At Amazon you can peek at some of the pages too.


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## jprampolla

Hi Folks,

I can't understand why this topic has created so much hostility and doubt. I am a very sensible and cautious person, but I already mentioned how discouraging words 20 years ago were totally unfounded. Hey, I am not promoting this device, but why can't the idea be kicked around without it being dismissed before anything has been tried by me? I am not asking for permission or telling anyone else to do it, or buy it, or use it.

Good for all of you who have high-end stuff. I don't have the modern electronics in anything with the exception of the Lionel electronic e-unit which I wouldn't try with the track cleaner.

Peter J. Thorne was a good guy who didn't cheat or lie, and actually gave many hobbyists some great advice and an understanding of the electronics as they relate to the trains. I don't even know if Thorne invented the circuit, but he would have told us not to use it if it was all that bad. It is not for DCC or any fancy electronics, but it did work. I have that on good authority.

Take care, Joe


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## xrunner

jprampolla said:


> ... but why can't the idea be kicked around without it being dismissed before anything has been tried by me?


That's what we're doing. :dunno:

I'm not saying it will or won't work. I'm simply thinking about it and trying to understand how it could work. Don't confuse comments about possible flaws as dismissal of the idea. Try to address them, or if you can't, then build the circuit and try some experiments and tell us what you found out. There are a lot of things to consider in my view, before just taking someone else's word for it. Again, it's like the audiophile speaker wires they market that you can pay upwards of $10,000 for (no I'm not joking). Just saying it works isn't enough, you have to show evidence, such as before and after pics, among other things.


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## jprampolla

xrunner said:


> Just saying it works isn't enough, you have to show evidence, such as before and after pics, among other things.


I didn't realize that I was on trial! Tough crowd!

Take care, Joe.


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## xrunner

jprampolla said:


> I didn't realize that I was on trial! Tough crowd!


You aren't on trial, but you act like we are just supposed to accept that it's a neat idea and not question it. You don't seem to accept being questioned very well. Anyway, I don't have anything more to add unless you can show some testing.


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## T-Man

With TJ's old link I read the gagemaster instructions. I have always believed if there are any serious questions on products to seek out the vendor first. They do have adequate FAQ's. My first answers are always my opinion but when the subject matter gets beyond me I say go to the vendor.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I don't see that you're "on trial" here, we're just disagreeing with your findings. 

Even assuming that it works as they claim, it's still very limited. I quote from their Tech Reference.



> Designed for gauges ‘Z’, ‘N’, ‘OO’, or similar the HF-1 will work on all types of track.
> Input voltage range 10 to 20Vac. Maximum track current 1 Ampere. This unit will not
> function with High Frequency Lighting Generators, Multiple Train Control Systems or
> with accessories that are powered from the track and some power clips.


I don't see this being useful for almost any O-scale train system. Not only do pretty much all modern locomotives (even conventional ones) have electronics, but it's limited to 1A track current. Very few O-scale engines of any consequence will run on that amount of power, and those that would move will do so slowly.


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## jprampolla

Hi Folks,

The limitations as far as scale is concerned can be overcome by changing the circuit, possibly, if you have the knowledge to do so. Remember this was designed for the smaller scales where dirty track and wheels are more problematic with tiny surfaces and lighter locos. I believe the principle could be applied to larger scales and longer track distances by changing the rating of the components and configuration to the track. Regular O scale/gauge locomotives aren't as sensitive to dirty track, but O gauge trolleys, handcars, streetcars, and now Super Street vehicles, can be hampered by dirty rail and wheels. And I have HO and N scale stuff too, so for me, and the few out there like me, it is worth the effort. Since I cannot find the circuit in print, I will buy the Gaugemaster when I have the spare pocket change. Right now, I see that circuit could be used for the O27 trolleys, streetcars, handcars, and SuperStreet vehicles that are run on their own isolated loops, on DC. The small motorized O27 items consume about the same power as an HO locomotive, in my experience.

I run some of my O gauge stuff on DC, but perhaps the "concept" could be applied to equipment running on low voltage 60 cycle AC. I'd like to give it a try if I could figure out the circuit, but I am not skilled in that way.

I don't believe I am confused about anything, or do I see any flaws. Is a Phillips head screwdriver flawed because it can't drive an old fashoined slotted screw?

But it is counterproductive to be so negative about something just in theoretical terms. Ideas shouldn't be shot down before they have a chance. 

Take care, Joe.


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## jprampolla

Hi T-Man,

Thanks, again, for your effort in looking through all your Thorne books and giving the idea a chance to grow!

Take care, Joe.


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## jprampolla

T-Man said:


> Joe, please do a thread if you make it. I also would like to see the throttle. The only good project I built on a bread board was the diesel horn. It was more like a VW bug horn. After all I am a Thorne fan very little can be found about him on the net.


Hi T-Man,

The MERG group in the UK developed a circuit based on the commercial HF AC track cleaning devices, and I found the circuit below in a PowerPoint presentation done by a Canadian group. 










I don't believe the Thorne circuit was ever published. The MERG group doesn't provide support to those who are not members, so I was working with the help of others who walked me through it. The transformer in the circuit is a small bell transformer used in reverse as a step-up transformer with the secondary winding used as the primary, with the little transistor providing the high-speed oscillation that generates the HF AC. If DC is flowing through what was the primary winding of the bell transformer, the HF AC doesn't flow to the track. But when a loco would stall and DC doesn't flow through the winding, the HF AC would. That is my understanding of how it works. Because I don't have an oscilloscope to test the circuit, I can only go by the slight tingle I seem to get sometimes when I lightly touch the track when nothing is on the rails. The circuit doesn't have an indicator light like the commercial units. You do notice some blue sparks at the wheels and a black powdery film collects at the track joints. It did allow my most temperamental handcar to run smoothly after a few laps and it seemed to have permanently corrected some issues that cleaning the wheels didn't resolve, perhaps dirt on the wheel contacts or something with the can motor. I still need to test it more. The O27 handcar has the rectifier removed, a small ceramic cap across the motor, and it is run on DC only now. 

So the main benefit would be for those who would like to run the temperamental small motorized, short wheelbase items that run on a separate loop of track, and run them on DC. But that was my quest -- to find a solution to the temperamental Lionel handcar that didn't involve a trailing car electrically connected, or an electronic flywheel circuit with a bi-polar cap. Unfortunately, the rectifier would have to be removed, so not exactly a project for a beginner, and the handcar would no longer be compatible with an AC layout unless there was an option to switch power to DC for specific situations. Now I run several Lionel handcars on DC only, so not an issue for me. In fact, you can easily reverse the direction after the rectifier is gone, which is what I wanted to do in several situations. And T-Man, your YouTube video with the diode trick is an excellent technique for automatic stopping at the end of the point to point run. If I had to do it again, I would just have sprung for the GaugeMaster unit for about $60. But it was a learning experience. If I join the MERG group when I have time later this year, I will have better information on the subject to offer provided I don't violate their rules.

Happy New Year!!!!

Take care, Joe.


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## oldSmokey

I belong to quite a few British Model Rail Forums, and this is the place to look and find comments on electronic track cleaning. Some people say they work OK while others say they are not much good, so I guess it is up to the individual to decide for themselves. here are a few of the comments from the British Forums:

The problem with Relcos pitting wheels is an inevitability. If the rails are sufficiently clean there will be no sparking even if a small dirt particle needs to be overcome, however once the dirt is bad enough to produce arcing between the wheel and rail the processes of spark erosion and deposition start to occur, in which the material appears to "flow" across the arc. Exactly the same effect is used industrially to eat away unwanted material, like the end of a broken off bolt stuck in the hole, or to build up new material where wear and tear has removed too much metal for the part to remain in tolerance. In the end keeping wheels and track clean is the better option.
John W
http://www.mrol.com.au/Articles/DCC/Relcos.aspx

20 years ago my old layout had Relco track cleaners and I was sure that they were improving the running...

After a break of 15 years or so I built another layout using all the same stock, but as I'd sold the Relcos I tried running the new layout without them. I was rather surprised to discover that the new layout ran just as well, or even better, than the old one did with with the Relcos. I also discovered that the locos seem to require less cleaning. It would appear that the sparks generated by the Relcos were leaving some kind of oxidised deposit on the wheels which frequently required cleaning with a wire brush. This seemed to be especially common with Lima diesels. Some of my stock that came out of storage after 15 years still had this oxidisation on the wheels, but since I cleaned it off it has generally not come back. I also wonder whether this sparking and the subsequent cleaning was actually damaging the plating on the wheels?

It might just be me, but I would never use an electronic cleaner again..


I agree entirely. There is also another problem with electronic cleaners. That is if you touch the rails with your fore arm or any other delicate part of your skin, you will get a considerable electric shock from these units. So be aware. If you cannot get access into your tunnel with a track rubber. Try fixing the rubber on to a wooden batten with a similar cross section to the rubber and you will have tunnel access to the length of the batten. If the tunnel is curved inside used a piece of wood that is curved to a similar radius of the tunnel. Or make one up from short overlapping pieces of batten. Also of major importance, once you have cleaned the rails with the rubber always clean all the track with a vacuum cleaner. Failure to do so will mean that the abrasive particles will get up inside you loco mechanisms and destroy them.

http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.u...&t=31993&p=438960&hilit=track+cleaner#p438960

MUST NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be used on DCC layouts
You can get more info from the forum links that I have posted here.


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## jprampolla

Hi Old Smokey,

Thanks for the info. The UK groups have been very supportive and helpful with my questions. After putting to rest, in my mind, as to whether or not the devices work, or caused damage, I wanted to understand the circuit and build one myself figuring I could save a few dollars in the process. Well, if I can get an indicator light on the circuit, then I could see when it engages momentarily. I guess the device and its attributes are more in line with a British approach to the hobby. Still can't figure out why all the doubting, however. 

Take care, Joe.


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