# HO DCC first layout Questions



## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

First layout, 1st post

HO, DCC, oval with a connector from the bottom, through the middle, to the top. This would be a reverse loop? I plan on getting a Digitrax, AR1 Automatic Reverse Controller-Single, (http://www.digitrax.com/products/autoreversing/ar1/) and using plastic rail connectors to separate both ends of the reversing track. Is this correct?

Bonus question: I ordered HO CODE-83 REMOTE SNAP-SWITCH LEFT & Right turnouts, (Atlas HO 150-541 & 540)
I ordered a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra 3.0 controller. How do the turnouts get their power? I think I need to get a separate DC power pack for the turnouts? 

Thank you.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

Yes, a reverse loop. Keep in mind that once you go thru the reverse, you can't change back without backing. Usually, if you have one, you need two. For the turnouts you will need a separate power supply, AC or DC is fine.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

Bwells said:


> Yes, a reverse loop. Keep in mind that once you go thru the reverse, you can't change back without backing. Usually, if you have one, you need two. For the turnouts you will need a separate power supply, AC or DC is fine.


I thought turnouts were supposed to be AC only? I dunno, my only electric switshes are on tortise.


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## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

Can I use the transformer from a Lionel O scale train set to power the turnouts?

Thank you.


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## thysell (Jun 8, 2013)

I did something similar with a reverse section. It took me a while to discover that it was possible to short the system when I had wheels crossing at both ends of the inner track at the same time. Low probability maybe, it took me a while to figure out that was what was happening on my layout . I wanted to run longer trains so I moved the track separations as far apart as possible.

Maybe you could separate the layout in 3 places. Cut the layout in half sort of diagonally from lower left to upper right. This way your trains could be longer without any chance of wheels crossing two dividers at the same time.


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## Bwells (Mar 30, 2014)

santafealltheway said:


> I thought turnouts were supposed to be AC only? I dunno, my only electric switshes are on tortise.


Aren't tortoise DC? For a twin coil solenoid it doesn't matter.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

robz said:


> Can I use the transformer from a Lionel O scale train set to power the turnouts?
> 
> Thank you.


Yes, the accessories terminals on the Lionel would
be correct power for twin coil turnout motors.

If you use the stall motor type (Tortoise) you
would need a DC power source which can be
easily wired between the Lionel and your 
turnout control panel.

Don


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

If you have a collection of wall warts, check to see if you have some with a 12v DC output. They should work just fine for both types. My preference for twin coil machines would be to us a capacitive discharge circuit to protect them from people holding the button down too long.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

Bwells said:


> Aren't tortoise DC? For a twin coil solenoid it doesn't matter.


yeah dc for the tortoise. i didnt realize you could use dc on the snap switches. i always just assumed i guess, because of the "ac out put - track accessories" on the power packs lol


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

Robz, be aware that Snap Switches can be a source of frustration and aggravation due to the curved leg of the diverging route. They are made that way to match the curvature of an 18" radius piece of curved track. The Custom Line Atlas turnouts have a straight diverging leg. They cause fewer issues.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Purpose of layout?*



robz said:


> First layout, 1st post
> 
> HO, DCC, oval with a connector from the bottom, through the middle, to the top. This would be a reverse loop? I plan on getting a Digitrax, AR1 Automatic Reverse Controller-Single, (http://www.digitrax.com/products/autoreversing/ar1/) and using plastic rail connectors to separate both ends of the reversing track. Is this correct?
> 
> ...


robz;

A question for you and some suggestions. First what is your main reason for building this track plan? If you like to just watch trains go around and around then this plan is fine. You may also be building this first layout as a learning exercise, a chance to get some hands on experience with all the facets of the hobby. The track plan you have will serve that purpose as well. 

However, If you're willing to make a few changes, you will end up with a plan that includes the fun of switching, and eventually operating your railroad like a real one. This is where most of us end up, but it's not where most of us started. We first built a layout similar to your present plan. Later layouts got more realistic as we learned more about how real railroads operate, and wanted to copy those operations in miniature.
Please understand that it's entirely your choice, and there is nothing wrong about choosing to go ahead with what you have. I'm just trying to help you get more long term satisfaction from your first layout.

If you do want to change things a bit, in order to be able to operate realistically, Then here are my suggestions.

1) Delete the diagonal track. It serves no realistic purpose. A real railroad generally does not spend money to build multiple tracks going to the same place. This diagonal track also creates two reverse loops. Yes, they can be wired so that they will work, but why build them at all? Reverse loops (called "balloon tracks") are extremely rare on real railroads.
Instead use the turnouts from that diagonal track to build a second passing siding; (one with turnouts at both ends) on the opposite side of the layout from the passing siding you have now. That will let you run two trains on the same main line, and let them pass each other at more than one location.

2) divide your layout down the middle. You can do this with a hill, or a double sided backdrop. By doing this you disguise the obvious fact that the trains are going around in an oval. Instead you can place a station at each passing siding and add some other buildings to create two separate towns. Now your trains are actually going from one town to another; just like a real railroad!

3) take the "spurs" (sidings with a turnout at only one end) out of the middle of the layout and distribute them into your two towns. Now put some industries on them. This gives your railroad a logical reason to move cars from a supplying industry, like a cattle loading pen; to a consuming destination; like a meat packing plant. Again, this duplicates the operations of a real railroad.

4) Buy Peco brand turnouts instead of Atlas. The Peco turnouts cost a bit more, but are well worth it. They are much, much less likely to cause derailments, and spoil your fun.

Welcome to the hobby, and have fun with whatever you choose.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Some good advice there from Traction Fan. I'd also rather put my money on Peco turnouts, they just don't give problems. There's an over centre spring which helps keep the blades in the selected position. They offer a specific North American line called 'Code83' which relates to the rail height, that's if you want to be prototypically correct.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think Traction Fan gave you some great advice, there. Before you go running off and buying a bunch of stuff, seriously consider his advice. While there is nothing wrong with just wanting to watch a train chase it's tail, it also rapidly gets boring for many people. Think about whether you would rather do than watch.

Also, except for the reversing loop, DCC doesn't really buy you anything on such a simple layout, and may be an unnecessary expense.


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## santafealltheway (Nov 27, 2012)

just another + 1 on the peco. 

Skip the atlas, you'll be glad you did...


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## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

Thank you all for your input. I unfortunately already purchased the turnouts, but will buy PECO when I change the layout. 
Traction Fan, is this what you are thinking? I have not laid any track yet. 
Also the original design is that a single reverse loop or a double reverse? Can it be controlled with one reverse loop controller?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The 'reverse section' on your original track plan post
would be the diagonal from lower right to upper left.
You would use insulated joiners to isolate it starting
at each of the connecting turnouts. Any spurs connected
to it would thus become a part of it. Doing it that way,
you would need only one reverse loop controller. The
output of the reverse controller would provide the
track feed for this section. The input to the reverse
controller would be from your DCC buss.

It is not all that long, so any passenger train
with lighted cars may not fit entirely on the isolated
section and would cause a shorting problem.

Don

Y


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

robz said:


> Thank you all for your input. I unfortunately already purchased the turnouts, but will buy PECO when I change the layout.
> Traction Fan, is this what you are thinking? I have not laid any track yet.
> Also the original design is that a single reverse loop or a double reverse? Can it be controlled with one reverse loop controller?


That's the idea yes. But you still have gobs of empty space, why limit yourself to two sidings? Add a couple more turnouts and 2-3 more sidings. That will give you a pretty fair level of operability for that size layout.


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## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

I should of added that the purpose of the layout is mostly a learning exercise. I plan on adding more turnouts for more spurs as time & finances allow. 
Table is built, controller, loco, turnouts (6), tracks, joiners, track bed, and rolling stock are here. Just need to start. 1st start transferring the drawing to the table top?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Looks better.*



robz said:


> Thank you all for your input. I unfortunately already purchased the turnouts, but will buy PECO when I change the layout.
> Traction Fan, is this what you are thinking? I have not laid any track yet.
> Also the original design is that a single reverse loop or a double reverse? Can it be controlled with one reverse loop controller?


robz;

Yes, your revised track plan is what I suggested. It does look a little too symmetrical, particularly the "mirror image" spurs at both narrow ends of the table. That's just me though. I'd probably locate them a little differently. They could branch off from the passing sidings in the towns. Also, as your budget permits, I would adopt CTValley's suggestion and add a few spurs, or even a three track yard to one long side or the other. I realize this is just a rough sketch, but the mountain might look better, and form a more effective view block, if it were stretched out into a ridge. It might look more interesting not dead center, but closer to one "town" than the other. You might also want to consider skewing the ridge, and the track at an angle to the table edge. Track and terrain that parallels the table looks less interesting, and realistic than if it's at a different angle. 

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Some good advice there. Its certainly true that making things a little symmetrical will add to the realism. Try to avoid running track in line with the edge of your base if you can. Elongating that mountain is also a good idea.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

robz said:


> I should of added that the purpose of the layout is mostly a learning exercise. I plan on adding more turnouts for more spurs as time & finances allow.
> Table is built, controller, loco, turnouts (6), tracks, joiners, track bed, and rolling stock are here. Just need to start. 1st start transferring the drawing to the table top?


A learning exercise is a good idea. My first layouts after returning to the hobby were disposable.

Next time, draw the track plan first, then put a table under it. That way your design isn't constrained by the table you build.

You can transfer the drawing to the table top. That's certainly one way. I would just start at a turnout and start laying track. Make sure your straights are dead straight (especially at rail joints) and your curves are dead smooth (again, watch for kinks at joints).


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## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

I have laid some track and a couple of turnouts, wired the turnouts to the supplied Atlas switch and they seem to be working for the moment. Hey I ran a Loco back and forth for a bit!

How do I wire in two lights (for each turnout) on on the control board to indicate the switch position? 

Atlas HO 540 & 541 Remote Snap-Switches

Thank you.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

While I understand basic principles of electricity enough to get by in the hobby, it's not my strong suit. And I haven't seen a Snap Switch in person since I got back into the hobby. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I am can tell you better than I can, so I won't waste your time.

Personally, I am using servo motors and control circuits from Tam Valley Depot. They sell operators for the turnouts that have integrated bicolor LED's in each track location that change from red to green depending on which route is selected, although they're not smart.. you align the lights when you set the switch up, and pressing the button to throw the points by activating the servo also swaps the colors. The device doesn't actually know which route is selected.

A simple circuit to the activating switch of your solenoid motors might do the same thing.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Indicator lights*



robz said:


> I have laid some track and a couple of turnouts, wired the turnouts to the supplied Atlas switch and they seem to be working for the moment. Hey I ran a Loco back and forth for a bit!
> 
> How do I wire in two lights (for each turnout) on on the control board to indicate the switch position?
> 
> ...


robz;

I don't know of any way that you could wire the panel lights to accurately show the position of the turnouts. You are using Atlas turnouts, and they don't have any electrical contacts on them; like a Tortoise motor does. The twin-coil machines attached to Atlas turnouts are quite weak. I don't think they would be strong enough to reliably operate contacts, or a Micro-switch.
There are some ways of controlling panel indicator lights with a toggle switch, and a push button, on the panel. DonR uses this system so I'll let him tell you about it. The downside of that system is that the lights actually only indicate which way the toggle switch is thrown, not necessarily which way the turnout is. 
Are you using the Atlas black plastic slide switches with the blue button/handle? If so they may have little square recesses on either side. These can hold labels. Back in my HO-scale days, I marked little squares of paper with a straight line on one piece and a curved line on the other. I used them to indicate the side of the Atlas control button that set the curved and the straight track routes for the turnout.
Happy to hear that you got to run a little. Nothing inspires one to carry on building a layout like the sight of a moving train!

regards;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The turnout points indicator system Tractionfan
mentioned uses a DPDT switch to select straight or
divert coil...then a normally open push button to
actually throw the points. The switch also controls
an LED for the visual indication. It is awkward to
use, and does not give a positive indication of
point position. I would recommend instead the
Stapleton 751 D. It is available for either twin coil
or stall motors, controls panel or track side LEDs
and has the added feature of a built in capacitor
discharge unit to protect twin coils from accidental
burn out. I wish I had known of this product when building
my panels.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/751D.HTM

Don


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