# What is liquid smoke made from?



## Smokestack Lightning

Does anyone know what liquid smoke is? It looks like mineral oil to me, but I'm not sure.


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## Big Ed

Smokestack Lightning said:


> Does anyone know what liquid smoke is? It looks like mineral oil to me, but I'm not sure.


From CTT,


*Solid and liquid*
Lionel was the only company to develop and market a solid smoke pellet. All but the pellets produced in 1946 were made from a secret waxy compound called meta-terphenyl. A. C. Gilbert and Marx always used smoke fluid. Lionel began using smoke fluid in 1957, and today, owners of postwar smoke-pellet locomotives often convert them to use smoke fluid.

Manufacturers seldom specify the exact chemical properties of their smoke fluids, but the fluids associated with Lionel, MTH, K-Line, and Williams are all oils of varying viscosity. Manufacturers tend to recommend only certain fluids in their smoke units, which likewise vary slightly in design from one train maker to another.


Read the whole thing?
http://ctt.trains.com/en/Collecting/Best of CTT/2010/09/Smoke Pellets.aspx


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## Big Ed

TJ 
notice the part, Lionel started liquid in 1957.
I never knew it was that early.


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## Smokestack Lightning

"First, the specially shaped headlight bulb that heated an ammonium nitrate pellet below the smokestack was somewhat fragile and relatively expensive to manufacture. Second, during operation the entire pellet melted at once, and if the locomotive were turned upside down, molten material would spill out. (Ammonium nitrate melts at 338°F.)"
:laugh: Suck it up junior. It's just a molten ammonium nitrate burn.


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## tjcruiser

Smokestack,

Neat info. Ties into a conversation over on T-Man's Scout thread. 

Ed ... good eye on the 1957. Thanks for the info in the Scout thread. So, sounds like OIL for my unit.

I just love the info swap here on the forum ... great stuff!

TJ


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## tjcruiser

Smokestack Lightning said:


> :laugh: Suck it up junior. It's just a molten ammonium nitrate burn.


:hah: :laugh:


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## Smokestack Lightning

I can't believe nobody knows what this stuff is made of. Now I HAVE to know.


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## Stillakid

Here's a good read on the, "Do's & Don't", of using anything other then specific fluids made for models trains. 
Regards,
Jim
http://www.toytrains1.com/lamp_oil.htm


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## tankist

AFAIK pure glycerin


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## tjcruiser

Anton,

Interesting.

As a sidenote, I helped my son build a Cub Scouts 'Space Derby' flying rocking-on-a-string thing some months back ... rubber band powered. The tips said to soak the rubber band in glycerin to increase its flexibility and durability. I hunted around to see where to buy some, but in the end, couldn't find the stuff at any local hardware stores, drug stores, etc. Instead, we used hand lotion to soften the rubber band ... most hand lotions have glycerin as their primary ingredient.

Where does one buy pure glycerin? (Other than smoke fluid, if that's the case?)

TJ


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## tankist

pharmacy. but apparently very few carry it. not CVS, wallmart nor wallgreens had it. a friend who works in hospital got me a vial.
disclaimer - i never personally used glycerin as steam liquid, thats what i read on the internets


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## Smokestack Lightning

Glycerine. Interesting.


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## GG1Fan

If you add a bit of 'nitro' to the glycerine....you'll get more than smoke out of that stack.

(Disclamer: Don't do that)


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## Patrick1544

Glycerin and water. 1 : 9 does it pretty well.


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## Big Ed

I haul food grade Glycerin, non hazardous, non placarded, goes into food grade products.

I will have to get me some next time I pick it up.
What is it mixed with to make the smoke fluid?


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## gunrunnerjohn

For the cheap price of factory smoke fluid, why take the chance?


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## Patrick1544

Ed the mix is with 9 parts Distilled Water to 1 part Glycerin. The Glycerin should be Anhydrous. Start with drops . Put some in a tin plate after you mix it up, before you try it in Engine. You may want to try 2:9 for a little more density. I use a small tea light candle to test the formula. Placed about 2 inches below the formula mix on the tin plate.


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## Big Ed

Patrick1544 said:


> Ed the mix is with 9 parts Distilled Water to 1 part Glycerin. The Glycerin should be Anhydrous. Start with drops . Put some in a tin plate after you mix it up, before you try it in Engine. You may want to try 2:9 for a little more density. I use a small tea light candle to test the formula. Placed about 2 inches below the formula mix on the tin plate.



Yes the stuff I pick up is 100% Glycerin.
Where do you get it? Can you buy it somewhere?

I will grab a sample bottle full next time I pick it up, another driver just went the other day to pickup 3000 gals to be drummed off.

How long does it take for it to heat up when your testing?


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## Patrick1544

Wow! 3000 gallons. That's a lot of smoke fluid. I get mine at Rite Aid. Pay about $5.49 for a bottle. I noticed that about 20 seconds or so with the candle test starts a small amount of smoke rising. You can make a tin cup out of aluminum foil and it'll heat up faster.
Now remember, you won't have a fan or a piston pump driving it, so don' t think that it's not working. It is cooking.

Patrick


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## norgale

WOW! Sounds like a mad scientist thread going here. Ask Timmothy Mcvey about ammonium nitrate. That's what he used to blow up the Federal building in Kansas City I think it was. I wouldn't use any of that stuff in an engine. Maybe the glycerin would be safer. pete


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## WestCelt

Ok, now answer this riddle, I bought a Lionel Halloween train. I have this Idea (tread carefully here) to take either some Orange food coloring or mix some red and yellow to make some Orange coloring and add a drop to the smoke mixture. Will it make ORANGE SMOKE??? how cool would that be or would it hurt the smoke unit. Any intelligent,or not if amusing, comments?

Roland


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## gunrunnerjohn

I seriously doubt it'll change the color of the smoke, give it a try.


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## Patrick1544

Food coloring may ruin the smoke element.


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## rrgrassi

You could try JT's Mega Steam. It comes in different scents.
The bottle shows it to be a petroleum distillate. 

I remember the older stuff used in the Tyco and Bachmann steamers. and it would leave an oily residue on the track and the locos.


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## jeep2k

I was always told that the reason Lionel went away from the pellet was that the smoke it produced was toxic. Not sure how valid this is, but that's what the manager at the hobby store I worked at told me.



big ed said:


> From CTT,
> 
> 
> *Solid and liquid*
> Lionel was the only company to develop and market a solid smoke pellet. All but the pellets produced in 1946 were made from a secret waxy compound called meta-terphenyl. A. C. Gilbert and Marx always used smoke fluid. Lionel began using smoke fluid in 1957, and today, owners of postwar smoke-pellet locomotives often convert them to use smoke fluid.
> 
> Manufacturers seldom specify the exact chemical properties of their smoke fluids, but the fluids associated with Lionel, MTH, K-Line, and Williams are all oils of varying viscosity. Manufacturers tend to recommend only certain fluids in their smoke units, which likewise vary slightly in design from one train maker to another.
> 
> 
> Read the whole thing?
> http://ctt.trains.com/en/Collecting/Best of CTT/2010/09/Smoke Pellets.aspx


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## gunrunnerjohn

I wouldn't put much stock in one opinion on the smoke pellets. The final product wasn't truly toxic, but then it also wasn't the healthiest thing on the planet either. 

Here's a clip from an old book on Lionel and Flyer pre-war trains.


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## Photobug

*Liquid smoke*

The liquid that produces the model train smoke is entirely or almost entirely propylene glycol.
My company used to package this stuff for a major model train company.


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## Crofinger

Photobug said:


> The liquid that produces the model train smoke is entirely or almost entirely propylene glycol.
> My company used to package this stuff for a major model train company.


Its a mixture of propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. 

Same stuff that is used in e cigarettes.


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## jimtone

norgale said:


> WOW! Sounds like a mad scientist thread going here. Ask Timmothy Mcvey about ammonium nitrate. That's what he used to blow up the Federal building in Kansas City I think it was. I wouldn't use any of that stuff in an engine. Maybe the glycerin would be safer. pete


I'm sure no one will be asking Timmothy Mcvey about the secret recipe since they didn't agree with his ideas about the IRS and free child care for federal employees. I'm sure he's got alot to do with why it's hard to get the things we used to take for granted in simpler times, "MODERN LIVING"! Ouch!


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## johnfl68

Older smoke fluid is typically Mineral Oil (sometimes called Paraffin Oil outside the US).

Newer fluid is Glycerin mixed with distilled water. Glycerin is a sugar alcohol, and consider safer (health wise) than Mineral Oil.

However, different manufacturers use different things for smoke, so what might work in one train, may cause dire consequences in another based on the method and temperature of each manufacturers smoke unit. They do extensive testing with the formula, filtering, and mixing of the chemicals used, so that you get the expected results safely every time.

In trying to make your own, you may see your train go up in smoke, and flames, along with possibly your layout, and your home.

Please, try to stick to known commercial smoke products that match the smoke unit(s) you have, for the safety of yourself and your family.

Also, if you do not already have a *Fire Extinguisher* in the same room as your layout, please consider getting one. You may never need it, but it is still a good idea to have one close by, just in case. And don't go stealing the one from somewhere else in the house, go get another one. 

And also a *Smoke Detector*. Most home smoke detectors are Ionization based, so the train smoke in most cases will not set off unless the detector is really sensitive. Avoid Photoelectric detectors, as they will be set off easily with train smoke.

Have fun, and stay safe!

John


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## tjcruiser

Good reminder to have a fire extinguisher nearby the model trains. One never knows ...


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