# New loco with a problem?



## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

I bought a Bachman B30-7 this afternoon. The loco is a DC model.

When I brought it home and put it on my track, huzzah it ran. But it makes what is best described as a clicking or chattering sound both forward and backward. Sounds very much as if something were dragging along the ties. However, there is nothing dragging.

I took the body off and short of taking every piece apart I can not see anything rubbing. I had a thought that perhaps it was a gear not meshing somehow.

Anyone have any ideas? Will this "wear away." I purchased a used DC switcher where the main gear had 'shifted' and would not fun. opening and pushing it in place solved that problem. This is my second DC only loco and none of my DCC locos ever made this noise when running.

Don


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Have you ran the train off the track to see if it's a load issue or a moving part problem?

Kinda wonder if the wheels are in good shape and set there pockets?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Sounds like the typical bochmann broken gear in the final drive! Pull the trucks apart and look for a cracked gear.


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

Grabbem88 said:


> Have you ran the train off the track to see if it's a load issue or a moving part problem?


not sure I understand the question. When the loco is not on the track (sitting on my desk for example) the wheels won't turn. None of my locos do. As for "load" I didn't have any cars coupled when running it.

Don


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

Bench test is what I'm talking about and load was reffering to under it's own power.


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

Thanks for the inputs. I took it back to the LHS where I purchased the loco yesterday. Clerk stated that sometimes when they "sit" for a long time they dry out (makes some sense) so he oiled the wheels (gears).

I was waiting to ask him to put it on a track and he did that on his own. He has a bench with multiple scale tracks. Ran the loco back and forth about 10 times while I was standing there. No noise. Perfect.

Rode home on the bike, 20 minutes later on my track and the noise is there still. I'm so frustrated I could spit.

There are not movement issues. It runs great. Just the bloody noise.

Don


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## Grabbem88 (Feb 24, 2012)

What code is your track? 
You have ballast on your track?

You got enough track and and a transformer to do your own bench test


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## Ed Gerken (Jan 23, 2012)

Maybe study the differences between their test track and your layout. Might be they have different track bed that's deadening noise while perhaps yours is laid direct on plywood or a hard substrate that makes it resonate and transmit any noise. 

Since you can hear it, get down close and try to observe the cause. Maybe pick up on the engine lightly so it runs/spins in your hand while still making enough wheel contact on the track to get the motor and wheels spinning. 

Since one scenario has it running with no noise and your home setup fails, seems like a process of elimination to find the root cause.

Good luck! I kinda enjoy solving little mysteries like this, while others just want to get the show on the road, so to speak. But if it's actually a track problem, a little sleuthing is in order. Do other engines exhibit similar noise, just quieter? Listen for a pattern, if it repeats at every rail, might be a deep wheel flange. Do the wheels run true or maybe rub on chassis or rail? Apply the transformer wires to just the loco off the track. Any difference? So on and so forth. 

Auto mechanics have a neat trick that might help here. Take a piece of tubing, put one end against your ear, the other end to what you want to hear up close, like a doctor's stethoscope.

-Ed


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## Ed Gerken (Jan 23, 2012)

My experience is limited since I have only one old Bachmann diesel bought off ebay. It had a cracked gear that made noise mostly in one direction of travel. Finding the cracked gear took close examination of each gear in my hand, I found it by slightly flexing one. Because of being oiled or nylon gear or whatever, a simple super glue job didn't fix it right off. It's still noisy because the glue didn't stick well enough first try. I want to run steam, so I didn't bother to take repair attempts further. 

-Ed


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## searstractorfan (May 30, 2011)

I have Bachmann EZ track laid for my stuff, and some of the lower quality trains will resonate a noise into the board via the track...So, maybe ur track is transfering a small noise into a bigger one...


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

Grabbem88 said:


> What code is your track?
> You have ballast on your track?
> 
> You got enough track and and a transformer to do your own bench test


Code 83 and its not ballasted.

I probably have enough scaprs but I'm going to get a section of flex track so it's a solid piece. Hook it to a DC transformer and see what happens.


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

Ed Gerken said:


> Maybe study the differences between their test track and your layout. Might be they have different track bed that's deadening noise while perhaps yours is laid direct on plywood or a hard substrate that makes it resonate and transmit any noise.


Their track appears to be code 100 (from what I remember) and it's on cork. My track is on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed on 2" (2 pieces) of blue foamboard.



Ed Gerken said:


> Since you can hear it, get down close and try to observe the cause. Maybe pick up on the engine lightly so it runs/spins in your hand while still making enough wheel contact on the track to get the motor and wheels spinning.


I did that thinking something was dragging. And while the clearance is close it is still enough that I can see daylight beneath the lowest part when I get right down on it. The couplers are not dragging either. I haven't tried to "pick it up" but in this case there is zilch to see underneath. The gears and wheels are covered inside the trucks and I can't see squat except the wheels touching the track and the leading trailing edges.



Ed Gerken said:


> Since one scenario has it running with no noise and your home setup fails, seems like a process of elimination to find the root cause.
> 
> Good luck! I kinda enjoy solving little mysteries like this, while others just want to get the show on the road, so to speak. But if it's actually a track problem, a little sleuthing is in order. Do other engines exhibit similar noise, just quieter? Listen for a pattern, if it repeats at every rail, might be a deep wheel flange. Do the wheels run true or maybe rub on chassis or rail? Apply the transformer wires to just the loco off the track. Any difference? So on and so forth.


It is a mystery and I have three DCC engines (not running at the moment due to cleaning issues and one other DC switch engine. NONE of them make any noise that even comes close to this. The best description is the broken gear scenario. I describe it as a sound of a stick dragging along a picket fence. Same intensity forward and reverse. And its LOUD. This isn't a soft annoyance. It is readily apparent. So with it not happening in the LHS and happening here I am focused on the track but the fact its only this engine makes me think it is this one that has the problem as opposed to my track.

Thus the flex track section I mentioned earlier. No roadbed, no foam no plywood - nothing. Lay it out on my desk and put power to it.

The president of hte local model train club is an employee of the LHS (in another store). He is on my list to go see pretty quick.


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

Ed Gerken said:


> My experience is limited since I have only one old Bachmann diesel bought off ebay. It had a cracked gear that made noise mostly in one direction of travel. Finding the cracked gear took close examination of each gear in my hand, I found it by slightly flexing one. Because of being oiled or nylon gear or whatever, a simple super glue job didn't fix it right off. It's still noisy because the glue didn't stick well enough first try. I want to run steam, so I didn't bother to take repair attempts further.
> 
> -Ed


It may come to that but its brand new from the LHS. They'll replace it or I'll get a refund. I can understand the fact these are "inexpensive" and they may have production issues. Doesn't mean I have to fix it on my own.


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

Also in the category of, oh yea, I got my woodland scenics root cleaner. This is a device that sits on the tracks and you put the loco on it and it travels over a short length of cleaning material while the loco runs. A helping hand for the cleaning style of pick it up and put it on a cloth idea.

Well when the noise started up this afternoon I did a let's see and while the loco was off my track and on this device instill heard the noise.

This is a used transformer I got off eBay for the express purpose of powering lights n such. Is it possible the power is out of whack and causing the motor to chatter? I've never heard of DC being in or out of phase and the noise doesn't change in intensity with more or less (other that it's related to the speed). 

Since I ultimately want to put a decoder in this thing I'm wondering if it may be worth it to just go ahead and get it to DCC as opposed to chasing my tail on DC. Just a passing thought as I retire after a long day.

One thing this has done is remind me how far behind I am on my plan to get trains running.


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

I have many Bachmann loco's...they all seem to make that similar noise. Some have gotten more quiet with time, and some lubrication. Even some of the Athearns I have make a certain degree of noise.

Chad


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## cabledawg (Nov 30, 2010)

I have several Bachmann locos and most have been converted to DCC. Only one ever makes noise other than a hum. My Thomas engine chatters around corners. It's the only one that does.

I know track height was mentioned, but have you checked to see if the flanges are hitting something the spike heads on the inside of your track? You said the LHS didnt have a problem and they have C100 but at the house it's noisy and you have C83, so that leads me to believe it may be a track issue.


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

Just because a loco is brand new, they sometimes don't run too good. I purchased a Bachmann 2-6-6-2 articulated brand new 3 or 4 years ago but didn't even take it out of the box until a couple weeks ago and it ran great for 45 minutes and sort of quit. The front drives stopped turning. I was sure if I sent it to Bachmann I wouldn't get it back for about 8 weeks and I never sent in the warranty card. Keep in mind I have several steam and diesel loco's from Bachmann, I never had a problem with any, with the exception of poor performance from the cheap lenz decoders from earlier models. Also note that I own 2- 3 truck shays and a Climax that are well known for gear problems and or drive shaft problems, but with many hours of running they have never given me a problem. Instead of returning the 2-6-6-2 to Bachmann, and after doing several DCC converstions and not afraid of doing my own diagnosis and repair, I decided to repair it myself. It was a huge job for my fix. Anyone trying or thinking they can remove the gear box covers to lube it is gonna be in for a big surprise. The wiper wires and the electrical pickup wires are molded in the gear box covers and if you force it the wires pull out of the solder and you must strip it, and I mean all the wiring for the whole loco to fix it. I don't think you have to ask me how I found that mistake out, by prying off the gearbox cover. I had to stripout all the wiring to get to the drivegear tower anyhow so resoldering the wires in the gear pan cover was not a problem at that point. The universal ball on the worm gear shaft on top of the tower was my problem. It just spun on the shaft. I saw no replacement part for it on the parts site on the Bachmann site, so I used professional super glue for the fix. Most frustrating was the wiring and the detail parts which are extremely fragile, breaking or falling off during the disassembly. Bachmann uses only black and red wires and all the wires are woven throughout the weight, with no slack. But I got her all back together and all is fine, no parts left over, and it runs excellent. But what a job to take it apart and reassemble it! LOL no wonder they get $290.00 just for the motorized chasis replacement part!

You did the right thing by returning it to the LHS, but I haven't got that luxury it would be a round trip of 120 miles for me, and besides I bought it off the internet, as I do most of my "stuff". If the problem is in the loco, send it back to Bachmann, but call them first and explain what's going on and they'll tell you what you need to do when you send it to them. Hope I helped some!

By the way I've had to return 2 Broadway Limited DCC factory installed loco's and 1 Atlas DCC factory installed loco to respected dealers and they were great company's to deal with with my returns, as is Bachmann, and repaired or replaced the loco's with minimal charge! 

Jim


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

One note on Bachmann loco's. 90% of my Bachmann loco's are "Spectrum", but I do have several standard models, if you will, loco's that do have a "hum" in DC. If I heard a "clicking" or grinding noise, I would bench test it without the track, but sometimes, again from experience, some loco's won't "click" or make noise unless it's right side up, or they need a load on it to duplicate the noise, if you get my drift. Jim


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## mr_x_ite_ment (Jun 22, 2009)

Jim, I had the same problem on a DC loco from Bachmann where I had to glue the universal ball together. It ran beautifully after that, where it would not run at all before. Even though I haven't had to work on many of my Bachmann's, I am also finding that they are tougher to work on. 

Chad


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

any electric motor is gonna make some kind/amount of noise period, wether its a small hum or a loud wiring noise...all my engines tyco, athern, riverossi and what ever else I got make veried degree of noise so yea some noises are expected from these things, but if its like a loud grinding noise lets say you may want to oil/grease the gears (respectivly) and then test, if issue still persists contact the mfg from there I usually buy the trains second hand so I don't get that luxery (but I don't need it anyways) so I got to more or less figure out how to fix them my self (As I love to do anyways)...


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

Since I ultimately want to put a decoder in this thing I'm wondering if it may be worth it to just go ahead and get it to DCC as opposed to chasing my tail on DC. Just a passing thought as I retire after a long day.

Casper, converting this loco to DCC in it's present state ain't gonna make it run any better. Find out what is wrong with it. Tear it down yourself, you may have to do this anyhow if it's an older analog with no DCC ready plug, you will have to "hard wire" it. Make sure you do a stall test, it may not even pass that if there is something in the motor causing the sound. But nothing in my mind would tell me it's coming from the motor itself. The only moving parts you got in the motor is the armature riding on the bushings and the brush's which I can't imagine would produce a "loud" clicking sound! But there is always a posibility that some motor's like others have posted will cause noise. Some manufacturers even put resistors, diodes, and capacitators in them to control or omit noise. Bachmann especially does it for European models which we in the US remove during our DCC conversions or in some DCC factory Bachmann decoder boards ( them yellow m&m looking capacitaors) to make them run better. Usually DCC will make it run slower or more realistic speed steps, in other words you won't get warp speeds like a slot car any more like it would in analog (DC). LOL but then again I don't run my trains fast nor do I wish too! Always wanted them to creep, but couldn't in DC analog. No DCC will not improve it. I have more than a few analogs that I thought I would like to convert to DCC but they either failed the stall test or they were poor runners after a bit of use, no matter how much I tried to tune them up or thoroughly cleaned them up and lubed them, some you just can't. Jim


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

Whats the stall test, and is there any info on it? I assume this is just seeing how low power you can run them on?


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

This is just copied and pasted from digitrax, I get long winded on this but I have been told that under 1 amp, but digitrax says it can be a bit higher:

Use the following steps to determine the stall current of your locomotive, especially if you have any doubts about its current draw: 

1. Put the loco (without the shell on a track powered with regular DC at 12V for HO & N Scales (16V for G Scale).

2. Attach a DC current meter (ammeter) in series with one of the track feeds. If you have a power pack that has an ammeter, it will work for this purpose.

3. Apply DC power to the track.

4. Hold the fly wheel or drive shaft to keep it from rotating for a couple of seconds & measure the current drawn from the power pack while the motor is stalled.

5. Be sure that the power pack voltage remains at 12V for N and HO or 16V for G Scale during this test to be sure you get an accurate stall current measurement.

6. Choose the appropriate decoder from the list below

STALL CURRENT DIGITRAX DECODER 
to 1.25 amps 1.0 amp- All current production DN & DZ, or1.5 amp-All current production DH decoders 

1.0 amps to 2.25 amps 1.5 amp-All current production DH decoders 

Over 2.0 amps 3.0-10.0 amps-All current production DG decoders


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## CasperFLSTC (Nov 7, 2011)

New Berlin RR said:


> any electric motor is gonna make some kind/amount of noise period, wether its a small hum or a loud wiring noise...all my engines tyco, athern, riverossi and what ever else I got make veried degree of noise so yea some noises are expected from these things, but if its like a loud grinding noise lets say you may want to oil/grease the gears (respectivly) and then test, if issue still persists contact the mfg from there I usually buy the trains second hand so I don't get that luxery (but I don't need it anyways) so I got to more or less figure out how to fix them my self (As I love to do anyways)...


I took the loco back to the LHS where the actual model railroad guy is. He put it on the bench and viola - noise. He said it sounded like the flywheel striking something inside the shell. Removed the shell and his first comment was "why is this so loose." Long and short was he took it down and found both screws that hold the weight to the chasis were way loose. Tighted those and did bench tests at every screw insert and it passed with flying colors. ONce he was finished I had a loco that did what I expected.

And just to reiterate this is not hte normal engine/electrical "humming" type noise that I have heard and seen withe various locos. Think of a picket fence and running a stick down it while you walk along. That is what I was hearing and it was not a normal sound I expected to hear from a new engine.

Course I feel silly after seeing him simply tighten the screws but live and learn.

I thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. I will be getting a piece of flex track and creating a bench test station for the future. Double as a programming track as well.


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## New Berlin RR (Feb 11, 2012)

Rangerover said:


> This is just copied and pasted from digitrax, I get long winded on this but I have been told that under 1 amp, but digitrax says it can be a bit higher:
> 
> Use the following steps to determine the stall current of your locomotive, especially if you have any doubts about its current draw:
> 
> ...



thanks for the info, do they make any ho transformers with such a device built in, if so links/names? i wouldn't mind one my self!


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

Not that I know of for HO dc, they do for AC lionel O and MRC does for O gage. Just go to radio shack or even walmart and buy a handheld meter either with an analog (with meter and pointer) for about $10.00 and up, or a digital readout for a few dollars more! Jim

40 years ago I used an amp and volt gage that I bought in an auto store, if you remember when the Idiot lights, we used to call them, first came out for automobiles, we all went and bought replacement gauges, well that's what I used and installed on my layout back then. Here is an application for installing them, volt meters are always parallel and ammeters are always in series.
http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/2415514337015485


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## Rangerover (Feb 8, 2012)

By the way glad you found the problem, sometimes that's all it is a screw loose.


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