# New Lionel Legacy Texas & Pacific 4-6-0, another paint fiasco



## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Good Evening Everyone,

Today I picked up my Legacy T&P 4-6-0 #316. After opening the box and seeing the engine for the first time, I was speechless! It looks like the Lionel factory dipped the engine shell in the pot of dye used for coloring Easter eggs but they missed Easter by a month. I don't know what color was used on the boiler but it ain't even close to the correct shade. It's supposed to be a lighter olive green/gray. I've heard a few comments about the gray color on the smokeboxes of other roadnames-they should consider themselves lucky. What's frustrating is that the real engine exists at the Texas State Railroad Museum and there are numerous photos/videos of this engine in both it's #201 and #316(the real road number when in service on the T&P) schemes. I have enclosed photos of the #201 paint scheme, the #316 paint scheme(both while at the TSRM), the Lionel catalog illustration, and finally my sunglasses required engine. It looks like Lionel took paint scheme features from both the #201 and #316 and combined them on their model but totally bombed on the boiler color. I had ordered this engine with the purpose of just re-lettering/re-numbering it for the Monongahela Railway #99 that they used for their modest passenger service. That particular engine was rebuilt from a wrecked 4-6-0 and the details of this Lionel 4-6-0 were pretty close-but I wasn't planning on a paint job. I will be contacting Lionel tomorrow.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Yeah, that's bad. I wish you luck with Lionel.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Definitely time to open up the paint shop. Lionel missed that color by a mile.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Pretty sad. Looks like the only color they got right was the black.

Pete


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## Jetguy (Mar 22, 2019)

This is sad, but it only gets worse. At this point, I cannot advocate even buying a black Lionel Steam Legacy engine from 2018-current. Smoke units with thermistors that should NEVER burn up and yet they do left and right with supposedly bad programming of the RCMC. Why have a thermistor if it doesn't work? Then you have the plastic smoke ducts melting, then we have the Canon main motor problem. And if that isn't enough of a kick in the teeth you get a problem like I had where another RCMC programming bug prevents using sequence mode because the code gets hung up and stops sending whistle sound data to the tender.

*If you have a Lionel Steam, seriously, this isn't a joke-turn off your smoke and use it sparingly. *It works great until it destroys itself and my opinion owning 7 of these big Legacy and Vision line engines from 2018 until now, consider changing out the main motors as well and get yourself a Pittman.
VL Niagara
VL Clinchfield Challenger
VL D&RGW Challenger
Legacy Bigboy first run
Legacy S3
Legacy Santa Fe 4-8-4
Legacy WM USRA

My last email with Lionel was that someone should be fired- if not a whole slew of people.
Why can MTH get it so right and Lionel charges almost 2X more and it is a steaming pile of excrement.
Again, take a look at 2018-2021 catalogs. The price goes up EVERY year, the quality is beyond inexcusable.
Lionel is using a plastic smoke cup, plastic smoke funnels and ducts, meanwhile MTH sticks with die cast.
Guess which one fails over and over?

I can't say MTH perfect, but they get the color right, the smoke units are built right and do it for less money.
And, they don't have a main drive motor that shorts to frame and destroys the main controller in the process.

And then you say so why did you buy so many? The problem is the short term out of the box experience and reviews and videos on Youtube paint these Lionel big Steam as amazing. Then Trainworld and a few other dealers had good discounts on these slightly older cataloged engines in fall of last year though the beginning of this year. The one thing Lionel has over MTH is how you activate whistle steam. Lionel it just blows, MTH requires DCS and multiple enable function of both quilling and whistle steam to then get activation. The problem is, 3-4 months down the road, one day it's not smoking like it should. You inspect it. You find the smoke duct or funnel melted, the wick burned to a crisp but still damp with fluid, a smoke fan blower melted into a blob. And if that isn't enough, heaven forbid you get bitten by this Canon motor brush end failure short to frame and thus blow the RCMC.
*Again, those reviews, those longer term experience problems are just now coming to light.*
Learn from my expensive debacle, stop buying Lionel Steam. Get a previous series from an estate sale (6-11XXX series that have metal smoke units and Pittman motors) or find and equivalent MTH Premier. Long term ownership and usage of these insanely expensive Lionels is just sick given the initial price. And you wonder why Lionel service is overloaded?


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"The one thing Lionel has over MTH is how you activate whistle steam. "

Some people think DCS is a massive kludge . In any case, MTH is on its way to entering the history books. If you have problems with Lionel products, addressing them with Lionel is the only sensible strategy. MTH never was a paragon and is about to become officially gone, so comparisons are really pointless, not to mention inaccurate. I've never seen a consumer technology as unreliable and unpredictable as DCS.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

And the beat goes on with Lionel. A good weathering job would help out that engine a lot. Consider sending it to Harry Heike


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Good Morning Everyone,

Well, I have already heard back this morning from Ryan Kunkle at Lionel. Apparently the color of my engine was seen by Lionel before production and they weren't happy with the color either. So, a color change was supposed to take place during the production run of the T&P engines. Obviously that didn't happen. Ryan said they are looking into the situation and discussing it with manufacturing. So, I'll give Lionel a chance and wait and see what the solution is.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I noticed the illustration of the Southern Pacific 4-6-0 is shown in similar colors. I have not yet seen the model. It will be interesting to see if this was painted the same way.
Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, my experience has been quite good. I have had some problems right out of the box when new, but otherwise . . . have not have any Legacy or LC+ steamers develop a problem after that. So if nohing wrong with it out of the box or after running one hour, they have all been bulletproof for me.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

machinist said:


> Good Morning Everyone,
> 
> Well, I have already heard back this morning from Ryan Kunkle at Lionel. Apparently the color of my engine was seen by Lionel before production and they weren't happy with the color either. So, a color change was supposed to take place during the production run of the T&P engines. Obviously that didn't happen. Ryan said they are looking into the situation and discussing it with manufacturing. So, I'll give Lionel a chance and wait and see what the solution is.


I can see Lionel setting up Harry Heike to repaint these like they did with the NW J class 4-8-4


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

That would be a way bigger deal than painting the Js given the number of colors assuming he makes them all correct plus dealing with the domes and piping. Folks who paint brass engines professionally might charge close to 4 figures for a paint job than complicated.
Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

I think the two practical options are either learning to like the colorful version of the loco or return it to your dealer/Lionel. If Lionel comes up with a better solution for you that would be nice, but I wouldn't count on it given the steep costs involved to them for producing new paint jobs or replacement boilers.

I kind of like the bright colors myself, but that's just me as a toy train guy, not a prototype modeler.

Let's face it, whatever color intensity they choose, some customers will find it too light and some too dark, considering the effects of aging photos, weathering in real life, and the fact that prototypical paint shops could have cared less about such issues when repainting or touching up real locos. Finally, variations in human eyesight and taste being what they are, someone out there is going to think it's wrong or doesn't match the catalog or the loco produced in 2005, etc.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

It does seem too bright. And I am no steam expert but they should have taken the actual locomotive color and any dated photos into consideration.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

It's unfortunate that that's what happens when you off-shore your production to China. Cheap labor, cheap components, little to no QC, and then still allow something like that through the chain with paint like that.

What is Lionel doing to their reputation and brand name except running it into the ground?

For three years now I've read numerous complaints from well known and established members here about shoddy workmanship, digital control, smoke systems, paint, and general operation that just sucks. And yet people still keep giving them money and settling for the crap they turn out.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

MichaelE said:


> It's unfortunate that that's what happens when you off-shore your production to China. Cheap labor, cheap components, little to no QC, and then still allow something like that through the chain with paint like that.
> 
> What is Lionel doing to their reputation and brand name except running it into the ground?
> 
> For three years now I've read numerous complaints from well known and established members here about shoddy workmanship, digital control, smoke systems, paint, and general operation that just sucks. And yet people still keep giving them money and settling for the crap they turn out.


Yes.

I was taught that the cost to correct a problem increases 10-fold traversing each stage in the process: inception to customer and back, and back ... 

A dramatization of this case: Maybe several hundred to a couple of thousand dollars to initiate a QC of the color. A Lionel employee asks for a sample of the final paint, receives it from China and evaluates. A one time expense in man hours. Compare that to extra man hours fielding customer issues, return shipping costs, a repair facility, repair man hours, return shipping, some management time, and on and on ... for every Loco.

It's a cost benefit analysis Lionel doesn't understand. Likely made harder dealing with China.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

MichaelE said:


> And yet people still keep giving them money and settling for the crap they turn out.


I suppose there are folks out there who do that but it's not necessarily the same customers. There are new people coming along all the time. I wandered into the hobby 3 years ago. They screwed me a few times but I learned my lesson. Problem is there will be more coming along.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Millstonemike said:


> Yes.
> 
> I was taught that the cost to correct a problem increases 10-fold traversing each stage in the process: inception to customer and back, and back ...
> 
> ...


It would have been cheaper to verify the correct color before production, but someone obviously dropped the ball between selection and production.

How can something like that happen? Doesn't anyone communicate to one another at Lionel? There is this new thing called Email. You can even attach photos.  

Even to China...


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Millstonemike said:


> Yes.
> 
> I was taught that the cost to correct a problem increases 10-fold traversing each stage in the process: inception to customer and back, and back ...
> 
> ...


I would say, with all due respect ( I am not doubting you) MAKE IT IN AMERICA! I do not understand the fascination with outsourcing in this regard to southeast Asia. But what do I know. Most of the comments regarding the inability to make items - to making them incorrectly - seems to go back to the China disconnect.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> I suppose there are folks out there who do that but it's not necessarily the same customers. There are new people coming along all the time. I wandered into the hobby 3 years ago. They screwed me a few times but I learned my lesson. Problem is there will be more coming along.


Not me. I have not purchased anything from a Lionel catalog for some time. 1st of all, they don't produce enough of what I want, in my road names. 2nd - when they do - like the Rock Island E A-A they made last year / this year - they priced it at $1000! Sure, a pre order would have been $900, but plus tax you are still at $985. 

And rolling stock is the same - overpriced with enough surplus out there. Rock Island rolling stock is actually pretty slim pickings on ebay and in the hobby stores, so in my opinion, if Lionel made some "interesting" Rock Island rolling stock they would sell at any (semi) reasonable price. 

I am actually eagerly awaiting the next Lionel catalog. It should be double the size and filled with options, since MTH is done. And Lionel can charge whatever they want, what else is there? Atlas? Atlas would need to run 2 "MTH" type catalogs annually to gain the MTH footprint - to draw in loyal MTH fans who are skeptical of Atlas' ability to ramp up to become the option to Lionel. I don't see that happening. 

I have some R.I. gondolas from some Atlas catalog from about 8 months ago on "order" at Caboose Stop and I doubt I ever see them. 

The state of the O Scale new product landscape is bad right now, real bad. Makes one think they need to buy what they think they want off the secondary market and settle in for a long non buying run. Heck, I still don't have my $1400 in MTH last 2 catalogs stuff in Milwaukee Road DL-109/110 and Premier passenger cars. Someone must have messed up, I don't see any last minute manufacturing of those by MTH if they have not done them by June 1.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Another rant - I ended up buying most of the Rock Island, Milwaukee Road and Burlington Route reference books from MTH. I saw sticky notes in there, some written notes as well. Mike and his crew loved trains and authenticity and I believe when they made trains it was fun for them. 

But I don't get the same vibe from Lionel, partly stemming from the poor color match above. Are there train geeks at Lionel that did the research and green lighted the colors on the steam locomotive? 

And why does Lionel seem to focus on "fantasy schemes" on locomotives that never existed? Just do more trains with the best molds you got and authentically finish them!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Bryan, AFAIK Atlas did not buy the MTH freight molds. Rather MTH still has them and is doling out cars at dealers requests. Why not contact the MTH dealers in your area and ask if they will do some specific Rock Island cars? Berwyns in Chicago is doing special runs. Also Mr Muffin or Stockyard Express may also be interested as they are doing quite a number of special runs. Maybe other stores in your area.

As for paint screw ups, I agree with the internet there is no excuse for wrong colors. Send a photo of the prototype or a paint sample and match it. No big deal.

Pete


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

It turns out that the complaints about Lionel quality control are mostly, but not all, from long term disgruntled whiners and self-important people who simply are quite negative individuals. Have there been significant quality issues with individual products, such as the rare defective drive train or occasional less than optimal paint job? Of course. 

But by and large, the products I have bought, dozens over the last few years, have been beautifully done and functional. No quality issues at all. Many other people have similar experiences that are not being considered in the rush to ill-considered judgement.

So the individual issues being raised, such as this paint job, are real, but the general complaints of lack of quality overall are unwarranted and reflect the bitterness and disappointment, or prejudices/biases of individuals who have had a bad experience. Not unreasonable in many cases, as one bad experience can sour anyone. 

But beware the perpetual biased complaints on many forums from a small handful of people. Many of the refugees from the largest forum now inhabit a small separate forum where dissent is punished and the anti-Lionel trope is dominant. Lots of huffing and puffing and chest beating from the terminally arrogant and ignorant in many cases. Take such rants, including this one, with a grain of salt.  

Stick with the facts rather than dogmas that have no factual basis.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

neilblumberg said:


> It turns out that the complaints about Lionel quality control are mostly, but not all, from long term disgruntled whiners and self-important people who simply are quite negative individuals.


Did you take a poll?


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Bryan Moran said:


> I still don't have my $1400 in MTH last 2 catalogs stuff in Milwaukee Road DL-109/110 and Premier passenger cars.


Bryan, those DL-109/110's were in the last MTH News. They were supposed to go out to dealers recently. I'd expect them any day now.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

MichaelE said:


> It would have been cheaper to verify the correct color before production, but someone obviously dropped the ball between selection and production.
> 
> How can something like that happen? Doesn't anyone communicate to one another at Lionel? There is this new thing called Email. You can even attach photos.
> 
> Even to China...


I was told that in some cases, the F40PH locomotives from several years ago as one example, Lionel was not allowed to have anyone in the factory to actually inspect production.


Bryan Moran said:


> I would say, with all due respect ( I am not doubting you) MAKE IT IN AMERICA! I do not understand the fascination with outsourcing in this regard to southeast Asia. But what do I know. Most of the comments regarding the inability to make items - to making them incorrectly - seems to go back to the China disconnect.


It's great to advocate that, and I'd do that for my stuff if it was possible! In order to get my PCB's built in the US, I'd have to pay well over twice the total price, and that's including all the overseas expenses like shipping, tariffs, etc. Years ago I used to have stuff made here, but the last reasonably priced PCB house closed up shop. After that, it was either close up shop or go offshore for the builds. I'd much rather have boards built here, just as soon as it's possible to stay in business and absorb the drastic price increase!


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Norton said:


> Bryan, AFAIK Atlas did not buy the MTH freight molds. Rather MTH still has them and is doling out cars at dealers requests. Why not contact the MTH dealers in your area and ask if they will do some specific Rock Island cars? Berwyns in Chicago is doing special runs. Also Mr Muffin or Stockyard Express may also be interested as they are doing quite a number of special runs. Maybe other stores in your area.
> 
> As for paint screw ups, I agree with the internet there is no excuse for wrong colors. Send a photo of the prototype or a paint sample and match it. No big deal.
> 
> Pete


Yeah Pete Berwyns told me they were doing a special Rock island steam locomotive but did not mention rolling stock. thanks for update on rolling stock molds.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

They're doing a Rock Island Premier GP7 also


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> Bryan, those DL-109/110's were in the last MTH News. They were supposed to go out to dealers recently. I'd expect them any day now.


Finally! I gave up. Well now I better bend over because that's going to be $1400 or so. But, well worth it. I sold my PS 1.0 DL-109 in Milwaukee.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> They're doing a Rock Island Premier GP7 also


They didn't mention that, but I have a ton of R.I. GP's and RS-3's RS-1's in MTH and Atlas. Per a previous discussion, I don't usually get my GP's in Premier, just RailKing as details are still good and price is much less. But, if the GP7 was in a color scheme not previously seen I might be interested.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Another dealer to contact with wishes is Beth at Public Delivery Track. She is doing specials for roads all over the country, not just regional ones most of the others are doing. Given engines are being done for Rock Island she might be inclined to do some rolling stock. Also check her inventory if you haven’t already as she is digging out a lot of new old stock.






The Public Delivery Track


"O" gauge model trains, 2 and 3 rail, specializing in full scale models of the real railroads. We have "old, new stock" going back to the 1990's.




www.publicdeliverytrack.com





Pete


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Bryan Moran said:


> But, if the GP7 was in a color scheme not previously seen I might be interested.


It's bankruptcy blue. They're posting their product announcements on OGR so you'll have to lurk there to see them. Or just call Berwyn's.

Link to the Rock Island GP-7

Link to their Rock Island steel sided reefer


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> It's bankruptcy blue. They're posting their product announcements on OGR so you'll have to lurk there to see them. Or just call Berwyn's.
> 
> Link to the Rock Island GP-7
> 
> Link to their Rock Island steel sided reefer


Yes D**mit, I am going to need one of both, as those are 2 of my 3 lines. There goes another $1,000.00! 

I have an MTH RailKing ? Bankruptcy Blue R.I. non powered which I was going to push with one of my Williams. I also have 2-3 of those old single motor Lionel Bankruptcy Blue GP's. There is not a lot out of quality in Bankruptcy Blue (thanks Lionel)

I was just looking this morning at Burlington as I do everyday on ebay - and I seldom see "nice" GP's from CB & Q in the "Everywhere West" or "Way of the Zephyrs". So yeah I need one of those too.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

beachhead2 said:


> It's bankruptcy blue. They're posting their product announcements on OGR so you'll have to lurk there to see them. Or just call Berwyn's.
> 
> Link to the Rock Island GP-7
> 
> Link to their Rock Island steel sided reefer


No kidding on lurking, I am not allowed on OGR.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

Jetguy said:


> This is sad, but it only gets worse. At this point, I cannot advocate even buying a black Lionel Steam Legacy engine from 2018-current. Smoke units with thermistors that should NEVER burn up and yet they do left and right with supposedly bad programming of the RCMC. Why have a thermistor if it doesn't work? Then you have the plastic smoke ducts melting, then we have the Canon main motor problem. And if that isn't enough of a kick in the teeth you get a problem like I had where another RCMC programming bug prevents using sequence mode because the code gets hung up and stops sending whistle sound data to the tender.
> 
> *If you have a Lionel Steam, seriously, this isn't a joke-turn off your smoke and use it sparingly. *It works great until it destroys itself and my opinion owning 7 of these big Legacy and Vision line engines from 2018 until now, consider changing out the main motors as well and get yourself a Pittman.
> VL Niagara
> ...


I've got one of those 2019 Legacy Santa Fe 3751 class Northerns. I fixed the motor issue: C’mon guys. Any locomotive or car projects happening?

I also adjusted the smoke unit thermistors so they are about 2mm away from the resistor. No issues with smoke yet after about 10 hours of run time, although it smokes quite a bit even on the medium setting, probably equivalent to my MTH stuff on MAX. I have to fill the main stack and whistle after about 10-12 minutes of run time.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Well, I have had good experience lately with Lionel. I have bought a bunch and am satisfied. I do listen to and think about what I read here, but that is alot more important to me than what I read here - no offense to anyone.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

I saw the Southern yesterday, the green was darker than what it should’ve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

They should have mixed the two greens, maybe they'd have come out the right color.


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Good Morning Everyone,

I contacted Ryan at Lionel again yesterday to see if there was any news on what Lionel was going to do about fixing the color mistake on these engines. Here is the answer I received this morning.

"Unfortunately, Lionel will not be repainting these engines. If you wish to return the engine, we will honor returns through the dealer where the engine was purchased so the dealer will not be left holding the engine. This is probably not what you wanted to hear".

There you have it-if you don't like it, send it back. The dealer where I purchased is a personal friend of mine and I'm not going to put him through the ringer over this. I'll repaint it myself. Without re-hashing all the Lionel QC issues, my pre-ordering days with Lionel are DONE. I have a lot more thoughts but they are not fit to print here-LOL.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Not surprising, actually more than I expected. This from a company that can’t make a 10 cent rod bushing and has to trash most of the engines only because that part is missing.

Pete


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Pete,

I got lucky and found this Norton aftermarket company who sold me a few bushings. (got them installed and the engine runs great-working on a complete re-do into Strasburg #89)


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Well, while it's disappointing to not like something you've ordered, I don't know what more you can expect beyond a full refund. Lionel is acting responsibly and honorably to a dissatisfied customer. But for anyone reading who is new to the hobby, people get fixed in their opinions about manufacturers. Lionel cannot get anything right according to these folks. 

Just realize that there are many people who've been buying Lionel for decades, had next to no problems and are completely comfortable pre-ordering from their Lionel dealer. Then there are those who are quite vocal about their dissatisfaction. The silent majority of happy customers probably outnumber the disgruntled few by 20 or 100 to 1, I'd guess. Seeing as Lionel is still in business and growing, if anything, in sales. And innovating in several areas, in contrast to the soon to be history MTH, for example. And MTH has legions of vocal enthusiasts, but apparently not enough of them to buy enough products to keep the company profitable as a full line train manufacturer. Unlike Lionel, at least so far. So listen to the complaints, but form your own opinions based upon experience and people you know. And find a reliable and responsible dealer who doesn't require deposits on pre-orders.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

Nick, if I'm reading that right, it seems like your dealer/buddy will be made whole by Lionel. Just ask your friend if that's true. If so, you have the option to return it.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

One thought Nick, does your dealer have a Southern engine. Might be easier to just change decals rather than a full repaint. 

Pete


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Good Morning Beach,

Yes, that is the situation. However, for both he and I, there are a couple of other factors in play at the present time. Len is a small "mom & pop" shop and he currently has a potentially serious health issue going on. So I don't really want to add another problem to his life right now. Since he is a small operation, all his Lionel orders/purchases must be ordered through a distributor(unlike some of the major dealers who apparently can purchase directly from Lionel). The last time this situation occurred where Lionel was taking back an engine, he had to send the engine back to his distributor who then sent it back to Lionel before my friend was reimbursed. So at this point, I'll fix the mistake myself. I actually did expect Lionel to fix the paint color since they have done this several times within the last couple years. They sent all the Legacy J's with the wrong maroon color to Harry Heike for him to repaint & restripe. And Lionel had completly new shells made & painted for the NYO&W F3's that they totally botched the original paint colors on.


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Good Morning Pete,

Pete, the problem with that is I need the high mounted headlight which is why I chose the T&P engine. Remember, model railroading is fun!


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I agree it can be fun Nick, just not on new stuff. I am a fan of liquid masker for these jobs if you want to save some of the paint. Walthers Magic Masker was the best but NLA. Micro Mark masker is OK but use 2-3 coats. A single coat is harder to remove. Microscales masker is useless. Almost impossible to remove. Apologies if you are already familiar with this.

Pete


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

neilblumberg said:


> It turns out that the complaints about Lionel quality control are mostly, but not all, from long term disgruntled whiners and self-important people who simply are quite negative individuals. Have there been significant quality issues with individual products, such as the rare defective drive train or occasional less than optimal paint job? Of course.
> 
> But by and large, the products I have bought, dozens over the last few years, have been beautifully done and functional. No quality issues at all. Many other people have similar experiences that are not being considered in the rush to ill-considered judgement.
> 
> ...


Wow... what a load of gibberish. I haven't posted here for quite some time, and tonight a sign on to find this? What can we expect when Lionel fanboys give the company a perpetual pass, instead of talking intelligently about problems which should be shared openly and candidly. The biggest issue I see is these factory problems just aren't getting any better, because people are willing to look the other way all the time. And the above point-of-view is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. 

Look... When I parted company with OGR years ago, it was because I was told my product reviews were interfering with their business relationship with Lionel as an advertising sponsor. Despite my reviews ALWAYS pointing out the good and the bad, they just didn't like the way I pointed out the bad. To this day, I'll stand by every review I posted over there. So here we are some 3+ years later, and these factory problems are no better today than when I pointed them out back then. But hey, I'm sure OGR is very happy with their business relationship with Lionel. And that's what really counts, right?

Bottom line... at the end of the day, I'm a pretty simple guy who enjoys model trains as a hobby. To that degree, I'd rather Lionel focus on getting the raw basics right (i.e., paint colors, couplers, truck designs, etc..) before they launch useless features like voice control. Stop publishing a catalog whose size approaches that of old phone books, and produce fewer products with EXCELLENCE instead of mediocrity. The latest T&P paint job doesn't even cut the mustard for an O-27 starter-set. It's an embarrassment. Period. Lionel still needs to walk before they can run.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

Neither David nor his cadre of Lionel haters on other forums has said word one about the possible MTH color atrocity on a recent diesel model. That would be wrong. That wouldn't be compliant with their biases. It's too dark, it's too light but it's ok as long as it ain't Lionel .


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"Wow... what a load of gibberish. "

As opposed to the repetitious, lengthy, self-congratulatory, self-important pompous rubbish you post ? . No one who has followed your shtick for years is convinced of your self-asserted objectivity. You see yourself as honest, which you may be, but that doesn't mean you are not an extremist, out of touch with reality, and pretty much out there on your own little island with the other lost boys who were disappointed with Lionel. A few errors does not the apocalypse make. Better a fanboy than a raving lunatic.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

" it was because I was told my product reviews were interfering with their business relationship with Lionel as an advertising sponsor. "

Show us the email. You almost certainly got the boot because you are were constantly posting unreasonable, irrational and negative stuff and harming the hobby with your constant ranting.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

neilblumberg said:


> Yada yada yada.... The Yoda of Toy Trains has spoken. Of course, neither he nor his cadre of Lionel haters on other forums has said word one about the possible MTH color atrocity on a recent diesel model. That would be wrong. That wouldn't be compliant with their biases. It's too dark, it's too light but it's ok as long as it ain't Lionel .


Wrong you are, sir. I've spoken about MTH's Canadian Pacific faux pax candidly. I called it out as *leprechaun green*, which is unfortunate because the prototype is a cool-looking locomotive.

Admit it... you just can't handle somebody who posts objectively... the good and the bad, because that gets in the way of your own biases that a company like Lionel can do no wrong. Well guess what, sir. Companies don't get better, when consumers just pump sunshine up their butts all the time. They need to hear the good AND the bad. That's why they get paid the big bucks. And that's how they improve, when they're allowed to focus on the problems and truly correct them.


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"Admit it... you just can't handle somebody who posts objectively."

I do admit that I cannot handle your incredible intellectual wisdom and superior moral fiber. It's too much for a fanboy like me.

P.S. If you actually read what I wrote instead of what you think I wrote, you'll note that I freely admitted Lionel has had some gaffes and that people understandably were disappointed. But I also noted that these gaffes haven't affected any of the products I've owned, and that these gaffes probably account for perhaps 1-2% of the product line. And that I'm not completely over the top as you frequently are with your ranting and raving about this sort of thing. You evidently have no idea what sort of wild man you come across as. And when people explain just how looney you sound, you huff and puff and protest what a swell thinker you are. Rant on, but I won't be responding to you. Managing your anger and indignation is not my problem.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

neilblumberg said:


> ....
> 
> Show us the email. You almost certainly got the boot because you are were constantly posting unreasonable, irrational and negative stuff and harming the hobby with your constant ranting.


Sir, you are the absolute LAST person who will see that email -- no matter how you characterize my keeping it private. I'll just let you sink in your own boat. And oh by the way, the list of "booted members" from that forum is long and distinguished, and growing as time marches onward. If you're a member over there, look at the product reviews I posted. I'll stand by every one of them, because they talk about the good and the bad. In fact, the week I parted company over there, I had just posted a great video review of Lionel's new Legacy stationsounds diners. Everyone knows it too. But you probably missed that one, because it doesn't fit your own baseless narratives. Enough said. I'll let people draw their own conclusions.


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Norton said:


> I agree it can be fun Nick, just not on new stuff. I am a fan of liquid masker for these jobs if you want to save some of the paint. Walthers Magic Masker was the best but NLA. Micro Mark masker is OK but use 2-3 coats. A single coat is harder to remove. Microscales masker is useless. Almost impossible to remove. Apologies if you are already familiar with this.
> 
> Pete
> 
> ...


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Nick, where do you get Mr Hobby masker? Always looking for something better. You may be able to push out the stanchions. They are plastic and am pretty sure they are not glued in.
If you go to lionelsuport.com and search parts under replacement parts vs item number for stanchion you will be able to see what they look like.

Pete


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## machinist (Dec 2, 2015)

Pete, I stumbled across it on Ebay. Ordered it from a place called Galactic Hobby in Michigan. Found a couple of Youtube videos of it being used and it looks like that it is thicker than a lot of the other liquid maskers, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I'm going to just try and push the stanchions out far enough where I can use the liquid masker underneath them/on the handrails, repaint the boiler, peel off the masker, and push the stanchions back in. It all sounds great in theory-LOL.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

You should be able to push them out, if fact if you unsolder the antenna wire you should be able to remove the whole handrail as well. Just don't pull on the handrail as the stanchions can break pretty easily BTDT.

Pete


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Norton said:


> That would be a way bigger deal than painting the Js given the number of colors assuming he makes them all correct plus dealing with the domes and piping. Folks who paint brass engines professionally might charge close to 4 figures for a paint job than complicated.
> Pete


*^^^^THIS^^^^*

I’ve been painting brass/plastic models for years, this isn’t an easy scheme, nor overly complicated. It WILL require a LOT of additional time vs the “J” screw up previously by Lionel.

Currently painting a brass locomotive in two tone grey, a multiple color combination similar in nature to Big L mess above. I would charge Lionel a lot of money to correct all those locomotives but I‘d loose my sanity doing that many of the same paint scheme. 

Return for refund an option? I’m not familiar with these...


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

Well guys, what can I say about it. I have it, and I'm keeping it. I also have the Southern and SOO Line Engines. They're perfect for my size railroad. I'm going to operate these on the new railroad I'm working on now. I will be operating these with the Lionchief universal remote, and see if I want to stay with this system or try Legacy with the Base 1L system. Basically, I'm pretty satisfied with these engines. We'll see how the operation goes with these new engines. I'll let you know.


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