# Prewar / Postwar Projects



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

I am in the process of gathering stuff to build a Prewar/Postwar layout this Spring. To this end, I have a few projects going on at the moment and I wanted to document some of this. I didn't see a project board and I don't really have a layout yet so I hope this is the forum to post it on. I had originally imagined a scenic Hi-Rail layout with a mountain and elevated section but as I looked at more and more layouts the tinplate buildings and trains really appealed to me. So I am trying to stay pre 1950 with all of this. Wish me luck  

First up is the 221 & 221T:

As purchased: It had broken valvegear and assorted nicks and chips.










Currently: So far, it has been cleaned, oiled and painted. It still needs new valvegear and a new headlight as well as tender stripes. It will pull two green 6440 Pullmans and a 6441 observation (should be arriving shortly).



















For some reason I bought a Scout tender because it looked similar to the 221T. The idea was to get either a Marx Mercury or Commodore Vanderbilt and use the Scout tender with modified trucks and couplers to connect Lionel passenger cars. As purchased:










I pulled it apart and took the trucks off. The sideplates were plastic with flaking white paint, so I decided to get the paint off with some stripper, which resulted in stripped sideplates that smell like sour milk. So much for just changing the couplers. Now I have decided to use some prewar trucks with a box coupler to connect to some 629/630 passenger cars I got.

Currently: Scout Tender with new paint awaiting trucks and lettering.










Prewar passenger cars 629 & 630. Polished and cleaned. I may repaint the roofs; haven't decided yet.










I will be building a 4x8 layout using O27 track on indoor/outdoor carpet. So I needed some buildings and a bridge.

Lionel 101 standard gauge bridge, as purchased:










Currently: I think I can use a long section of O27 to bend and fit the bridge, still a work in progress. I will leave the flat gray paint as is and applied some Rust Refomer to the rust to stop it from getting worse. New Cream paint. Awaiting some Pea Green paint. 










Lionel 126 lighted station, as purchased:










Currently: I bent the chimneys back into shape and polished them up a little. The roof had 2 nice dents in it that I pounded out. The base was also caved in. Once apart it was easy to pound it back into shape. The crackle red posed a problem of how to replicate. Rather than get into faux finishes I decided to paint a dark red over the crackle finish to preserve the texture. Still a work in progress. Awaiting some Pea Green, Ivory, and Mojave paint.


























The goal with all of this was to not restore everything to new condition but to basically get everything in working order and repaint where possible but leave the character of the objects. To this end nothing gets replaced unless it is broken or worn out. Will update when these projects get finished and add others as I get them.

I am very new to all of this, toy trains and specifically old Lionel stuff. If anyone has any suggestions or information I would be happy to hear it. 

Thanks
Scott


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Heck Scott I think you could advise us some, nice work. :thumbsup:
When you talk about bending the track for the 101 what do you mean? 
I have the same bridge and had the same thought about putting O track on it.


If a mod read my question don't worry I figured it out.


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks.

At my LHS I saw a long section of straight O27 track. It must have been 3ft long. Rather than piecing together smaller sections and bending the track at the pins like the original I thought it would be better to actually bend the tubes of a long section as the incline of the approach meets the level bridge and decline of the opposite approach. I also thought I could move the ties and bend the ends open to fit into the slots for the standard gauge track. Thats alot of assumptions. It if doesn't work then I will just run the track on top of the bridge rather than "in" it. I don't want to cut new slots or anything to really alter it. I assumed I would be elevating the track prior to the approach as well to get a nicer incline.

Scott


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Welcome to the Prewar/Postwar madness! Nice to have you and your goodies in this new thread!

The 221 looks quite nice. I redid one myself recently. The left and right valve gear assemblies look almost the same, but there's a subtle mirror-image difference. When installed, the little simulated journal-box "bump out" points down, not up.

Where'd you get your parts? Dry-transfer "221" tags?

The tender "New York Central" tags are available in either peel-n-stick, or wet-transfer decal. I used the latter, and was happy with that.

What's up with the ticket-seller's window on the station? Was that not a removable piece, like the other windows/doors?

Nice work throughout ... keep us posted!

TJ


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok, yes the long O/27 straights are 36" long.
In Lionel O gauge they are 40".
And in the K line 40" long track it has more ties then the Lionel O longs.

Do you have a lot of track yet?
You might want to go with the O instead of O/27 track.

You know the difference in the two? O verses O/27?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice restoration, quite a difference.


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

> What's up with the ticket-seller's window on the station? Was that not a removable piece, like the other windows/doors?


Yes, it is brass. I polished the clearcoat off it and shined it up with simichrome and a dremel polishing bit. It is really shiny and together with the flash created a muddy image. I put it back on because I was impatient.



> Where'd you get your parts? Dry-transfer "221" tags?


They are Woodland Scenics Roman numbers. I went with the smaller ones because they seemed more like the original stamp. I chose white instead of silver though because the tender transfer will be white. You're restoration threads on the 221 are what convinced me I could do any of this. Thank you or curse you, I haven't decided. Just joking.



> Do you have a lot of track yet?


No. Actually I don't have any track yet except for a circle of Fastrack that I bought for under the Christmas tree which started this madness. I do understand the differences. Here's why I want to go with O27: 

I only have 1 4x8 table (which I have to build) to work with and thought I could do more with O27.

My LHS has boxes of brand new O27 straights and curves for $1.53 each. 

It kind of fits with what I wanted to do regarding the pre 1950s feel.

Did I mention how cheap and accessible it is.

The switches are reasonable.

Again, I am new to all of this, literally a few months into it. I could absolutely be convinced to go with O track. Are there any major advantages?

Thanks
Scott


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Srook said:


> You're restoration threads on the 221 are what convinced me I could do any of this. Thank you *or curse you*, I haven't decided. Just joking.


Love that! I'm honored !!!


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Great looking work. You learned all that from reading tjs restoration threads! I have to read more or give up painting alltogether. The engine is sharp looking and I agree on saving some of the old character of these items. A little of both worlds is good.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Some of the older trains won't go through the O/27 switches without giving you problems, even some of the O/27 locomotives will give you problems.

O track and switches will eliminate that for the big part.

If your just going to run a few loops you should be fine, it is mainly the switches that will drive you nuts.

This site has some interesting small pike plans check it out.

http://www.thortrains.net/


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

I was thinking of something like this:










I like the 2 sidings on the left side inside the loop. They are a perfect spot for the #97 coal elevator and milk car w/platform I want to get. I was envisioning the left half of the layout industrial and the right half town themed with station and houses. 

I would probably add a siding along the right side on the outside and lose the inside one. I like the sidings as places to park freight cars, passenger cars and locomotives.

Scott


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I like the O-31 track and the 022 switches. Once the switches have been overhauled, they should work without trouble for years. O-31 track is very rugged. You can actually stand on it and not damage it. For the 022 switches, look up my post on how to service them: 022 and 711 switch operating pblms. You can find it with Google. Also look on this web site for how to clean O-31 track without working at it. I bought some old track that is somewhat corroded, and used the loco and cars to clean the top of the rails. Much easier than a wire wheel or ScotchBrite pad. Much more fun, also.

The 022 switches definitely work much better than the O-27 switches.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You could add a little more action on the layout if you add 2 more switches and continue the outside loop around. 

Just a thought.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Big ed has a good idea. I like the layout so far. As for track I have to agree with servoguy . I originally was going to use 027 track but after putting up a test loop I found it to be flimsy. The o guage is much sturdier and the switches work better ( at least the ones I had. ) On the other hand, I do know that lots of people love the 027 track. Maybe buy a little of each and try it out first. Ultimately go with what you like its your layout!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd strongly recommend you go with the O and not the O27. Many more things will run on it, and I found the O27 switches to be very problematic. I used to have an O27 layout, it's history now.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

For the record, many guys here know I'm a prewar fanatic. A prewar fanatic with an 027 track layout. A prewar fanatic who can't wait to ditch his 027 track layout and switch over to O.

'Nuff said.

John's echo.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

For you guys that want to switch over to O-31 track, I have been buying used and somewhat corroded O-31 track for between 50 cents and $1 a section. I have bought some 022 switches for between $10 a pair and $30 a pair. All of the switches went through my refurb process and they are all working well. I went to a train show last Sat and there were plenty of 022 switches available.


----------



## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

Guess I'm in the minority, but I run old O-27 equipment on O-27 track and switches without issues. But I'm a crazy Marx fan, so I must be doing something wrong. :laugh:

One thing though regardless of track type. Some of the old stuff needs old style switches. Those engines won't go through modern O-31 switches any better than they go through modern O-27 switches. I've seen other brands of old locos with the same "fat wheel" syndrome of some Marx locos.


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

Small update on my projects. I'm waiting for an order from Olsen's to complete the 221 and 221T. In the meantime I finished my Scout tender conversion to prewar trucks and a box coupler with a couple of options for the drawbar.



















This tender will allow me to run prewar cars on the 221 or just about any other postwar loco with the same type of drawbar. It also gives me the option of running prewar locos with the post type connector.

Here is the 126 station. I just have to paint the base in the original Mohave paint. The roof was stripped and painted with Hennings Collector Color pea green. I left the pea green window inserts alone and just polished them with some SwirlX from Maguire's. You can see the difference in the shades from original and what passes for an exact match.



















I have been thinking about transformers alot. I had originally planned to go with a refurb 1033 but have found some other postwar transformers that pack alot more power for only a little bit more money like the RW, TW, and KW. I'm still thinking on this one. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Scott


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The KW is a lot of bang for the buck: two controllers and two whistle controllers. Two 1033s have about the same power as a KW and I have bought them for as little as $5 when they needed a cord and were not exactly pristine. I have 4 KWs all of which I purchased for less than $50. Prices depend on condition. I had to put power cords on all of the KWs and replace some of the rollers and replace the copper oxide rectifier with a diode.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nice work on the tender and building. :thumbsup:

$50 shipped is about my _threshold of pain_ for buying a KW as well. I figure regardless of what is stated, I probably have to put new rollers in, probably replace a couple of the terminal studs, and maybe the whistle rectifier. The power cord seems automatic for most of them with original cords, though I have one of the two I have here with an original cord still in good condition.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It depends on what you like. Servoguy is right the kws and the 1033s have a lot of power on the cheap. I however am partial to the zw. I like the feel of the control arms. This could just be nostalgia on my part as I had one as a youth. They cost a hell of a lot more but I like them. I do have a 1033 working my lights at the moment and plan to add some of the accessories to it.


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Srook

For a new guy here, that sure is some impressive work with the tender mods and especially the station rehab. The polished ticket window sparkles with character! Nice saves!

TJ


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks for the kind words everyone. This thread will be a chronicle of my descent into building a tinplate/early postwar layout.

Here are my latest updates. I decided to go with O track as it seemed like the consensus from some very well respected members. I will be running an outer loop of O42 that will hug the edges of my 4x8 table and an inner loop of O31 with a few switches for a siding and half of a figure 8. Eventually I will connect the inner and outer loops but its baby steps for now. I found a local source for O track so it was a bit more expensive than the O27 at least I didn't have to pay shipping. Now the search is on for 3 022 switches. I also picked up a nice rebuilt KW to run my mini empire.

Finished the 221. New side-rods and waterslide decal. I sealed the decal with Testors Dullcoat to remove the sheen. I'm not happy with the cab numbers and will be getting a rubber stamp to do it right.



















I just finished the 101 standard gauge bridge. The approaches and posts are Cream and the bridge sections are Pea Green. I used a section of long O track and bent it to conform to the bridge. In keeping with the not perfect theme, the gray sections were left original and the rust spots were treated with Rust Reformer.




























My latest project is a 3462 milk platform with a 3472 milk car. I picked up 2 platforms for under $10 and made one nice one out of them. The car needs some help. Will post pics when its complete and working.

Here is a shot of my newest obsession; a 262E. It was the loco only so I am on the hunt for a tender. Anyone have one lying around collecting dust?










Getting anxious to start building the table out in my garage but its still snowing in NY. I picked up some outdoor carpet samples from Home Depot. I think I will be going with gray rather than the blue or green. Anyone have any thoughts on carpet color for the top of my table?

Thanks
Scott


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The painting looks great!

I have one question on the bridge. I see you bent the track at the edges of the bridge, I think that will drive many locomotives nuts trying to go over that!


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes, I bent the track as the approaches meet the level section of the bridge. Being new, I didn't think this would be a problem. Is it? 

The bridge is for standard gauge track so each section is just long enough for a section of standard gauge track. The pins were bent to connect the sections and the bridge. What will happen as the loco runs over the bent sections?

Scott


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Srook, looking good. Very cool bridge!


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Why don't you temporarily add some straight sections and put power to it and run the locomotive over it. See what happens. They don't look too bent.
If you could try for a 5' x 9' table that extra foot on each side is all you need. Even a 5'x8' would be better.

Bridge looks good, the station too. :thumbsup:


----------



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

These restorations are quite impressive. I may have to add a 221 locomotive to my watch list now!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can almost say with certainty that many locomotives won't make that transition. Some may make it, but it'll be a problem for others.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I would think that it would work better then three separate pieces of track spanning the bridge.

I never bent and run track like that, but I was thinking of trying the same thing, and that was before he bent his.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've had temporary grades experimenting with tubular track and pulling power that had less of a bend at the top and a number of engines would pick up the traction tires and just spin their wheels. That bend looks more extreme than the one that gave me fits. Usually, it was steamers that only have one set of traction tires, the dual-motored diesels would chug right across. It's worse if you have a load behind them and you come up pretty slowly. Trust me, it's going to be an issue.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've had temporary grades experimenting with tubular track and pulling power that had less of a bend at the top and a number of engines would pick up the traction tires and just spin their wheels. That bend looks more extreme than the one that gave me fits. Usually, it was steamers that only have one set of traction tires, the dual-motored diesels would chug right across. It's worse if you have a load behind them and you come up pretty slowly. Trust me, it's going to be an issue.


Well then he should be fine as he is only running pre 1950 stuff.
Traction tire won't be an issue then. Right?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When he comes up to the break, they're likely to high-center on that spot. Bridge looks great, but that track is going to be a problem.

I've done my bit, and expressed my opinion, my work is finished here.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> When he comes up to the break, they're likely to high-center on that spot. Bridge looks great, but that track is going to be a problem.
> 
> I've done my bit, and expressed my opinion, my work is finished here.


You call that work? 
Maybe because the standard gauge is bigger it didn't effect them.

I am curious to see what happens, at least I won't have to bend a perfectly good long straight piece then.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

If it doesn't work just double/ tripple up the road bed to even out the track a bit. Make it less steap.


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

OK time to test out the bridge:

I added 2 pieces of straight track to either side of the bent track, hooked up the KW, and tried the 262E. It went up and down the track with no issues. It wasn't pulling any cars but I don't think it will be a problem as I will be running smaller prewar passenger cars with this loco. I will test the 221 tomorrow and report back.

Scott


----------



## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

The 221 & tender looks great! Bridge, too.

Thanks for sharing!

TJ


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Do you have a postwar locomotive you can try?


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

I tested the 221 up and down the bridge as slow as I could get it to run and it went up and down with no problems. I wasn't pulling any cars so I will have to see if that makes a difference once I get the table built. So far with my limited locos the bridge is a success. It will be on my outside loop so if I get some locos that can't run over it, they will stay on the inside loop with no inclines. 

Scott


----------



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Good news! Based on my experience, I think most pre-war and post-war locos should work on this kind of setup. The problems may come with modern era locos equipped with traction wheels. I believe some of the very early locos have a single power pickup, which could also be problematic. If you don't have any of those types, I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

I just completed a couple of summer projects. The first was a complete restoration of a Lionel set #292: 248 loco, 2 629 Pullman Cars, and a 630 Observation car. The original set only came with 1 629 but I thought 2 would look better.

248 as purchased. Wheels needed to be replaced. Engine was very dirty.




New wheels, complete repaint, polished trim, new light.



Complete set.



I tried to recreate a Lionel Scenic Plot. The trees, hedges, and flower were made from sisal rope, loofah sponge, plaster, glue and paint. I used ground foam from Woodland Scenics rather than sawdust like the originals.



The 189 Villa is a reproduction made by Frank Bowers.

Scott


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Very nice


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Agreed, good job. Like new!


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I have a 248 and 2 cars that I have had for many years. My sister bought it for me in a garage sale for $35. It is original including the wheels. It is red and has not been restored. I have the original box for it.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Those look great, nice restoration job! :thumbsup:


----------



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Wow, those pieces cleaned up nice. Great job!


----------



## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

scott,
your restorations look real good.
i was wondering how your making out with the grades over the bridge?


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone.

Well I still don't have a layout built. I have an oval of fastrack on the carpet to test things out and my kids can run some trains. I bought a bunch of tubular O track but I don't have the space for a 4x8 table yet. Its a little frustrating. I've got the track, trains, transformers, bridges, buildings, and plan in AnyRail but no table. Here's my track plan:

 

Scott


----------



## mnp13 (Aug 22, 2013)

These are REALLY great. I'm just drooling over that bridge and the building. Do you know what number that bridge is? Was it stamped or marked anywhere?


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

The Bridge is a 101 standard gauge bridge by Lionel. Everyone has got me thinking about the bridge now. Maybe I will put the fastrack away and set up the tubular track with the bridge. I think the 262E will have trouble with the bridge. I can run it at full throttle pulling 3 metal passenger cars in an oval without derailing. It doesn't feel like it has a lot of pulling power. The 221 I am confident will roll right over it carrying 3 long metal passenger cars. Same for the 248. Both those trains will fly off the track if I run them at full throttle.

Scott


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Sounds like you should lube the 262E


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Nice work on the restorations. :smilie_daumenpos:

TJ is never around anymore, he has not said Boo in over a month! 
Maybe you can take over the Tin Man handle I pinned on him. :thumbsup:


----------



## Srook (Jan 3, 2013)

I put the fastrack away and set up a long oval of tubular track with the 101 bridge. Everything ran over it ok. It took a few tries with each loco to get the right speed; fast enough to not spin the wheels going up and slow enough that it didn't derail as it started to turn coming down from the bridge. After this little test I'm pretty confident that the bridge will work with the trains I am running

I am considering putting a prewar rheostat on the 2 sections of track immediately after the bridge to kind of slow the momentum of the train as it comes off the bridge. Everytime I think the thing is going to run off the tracks and crash. That is a headache with prewar because the cars don't uncouple when the engine derails. The whole thing falls over. 

Scott


----------

