# Power for Operating Cars



## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

After nearly 25 years I've been stationed near my dad and I'm finally setting up his/my old Flyer trains.  I've been lurking here for a while and read through a bunch of threads, but I've got a problem I don't know how to solve:

My 714 Log car won't unload unless the track clip is on the spur where the log loader is located. Of course, I could power the siding; but the whole point of having it as a spur was to leave an engine there unpowered while running another engine on the mainline.

The nearest track clip is through two switches. Am I losing that much power through them? I'm using a 15B transformer.

I've cleaned the wheels thoroughly and cleaned the track again (thanks for the Scotchbrite suggestion!). But adding power in the spur, it just doesn't have enough oomph to throw off the logs.

I've run out of ideas.  Any help you might offer would be most appreciated!
Mike


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Did you run a power drop directly to the spur?


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## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

John, thanks. I have. When I added a power drop to the spur, it gave "just" enough juice to tip the logs. Without it, the car tries to dump, but the plunger can't raise the bed enough to move the logs.

It has been 25 years, but in the recesses of my mind, I remember this car almost throwing the logs off. Now, not so much. Can the solenoid in the car go bad?
Mike


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Anything's possible, but I'd put it on a test track section with a direct power connection and see if it operates normally. If so, I wouldn't suspect the solenoid, but rather the power supply to the track.


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## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

Without the direct power, the car clicks (plunger hitting the bottom of the tray), but doesn't move. With the direct power, it moves but is weak. The plunger raises the tray, but it struggles to tip far enough for the logs to roll off.

It seems I have two dilemmas - I need the logs to roll off. But I also want the siding to be a "dead" when the switch is closed so that I can have an engine sitting there inoperative while another is running on the layout.


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## kix662003 (Mar 8, 2013)

I wonder if something is "stuck" in place after sitting? When I noticed my light and smoke wasn't working on my 303 engine (stored for 50 years), I thought I'd replace the bulb. I made a simple cradle, turned the engine over, loosened two of the screws and then decided that I shouldn't be digging into something that I know nothing about. I put the screws back in, wiped off my fingerprints, set the engine on the track and everything began to magically work. I know that solenoids stick in welding machines and automobile starter systems. Maybe the careful "bumping" on the workbench did the trick. Low voltage will weld contacts, too.


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## Aflyer (Nov 10, 2010)

Mike, 
I understand your desire to have the spur "unpowered" in order to park the locomotive on it. The only thing I can think of is using a fiber insulating pin on the section of track where your log dump car is parked for dumping, to isolate it from the rest of the Spur. Of course that may only work out if it is the last section on the Spur.

The 15B is rated at 100 watts, but that should be enough if there are not a lot of other things drawing power at the same time. Just for kicks you could try cleaning the plunger and the opening in the solenoid, maybe some tuner cleaner on a Q Tip.

Aflyer


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, expanding on the fiver insulating pin idea, just isolate both ends of the section and run power directly to it. Run a wire around the section to allow the rest of the track to be powered, when you switch in on.


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## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

Thanks all. I appreciate the suggestions. I think I understand the fiber pin idea. I've never used them, so guess it is time to pull some out and give it a try! 

I am still having a problem getting the car to dump with 3 logs on it. I can hear the plunger hit the bottom of the tray, but it won't raise it up - like it doesn't have enough strength to do so. With 2 logs, I can work one off at a time. I have a power clip on the same piece of track as the car, so power "shouldn't" be a issue.

I opened it up and cleaned inside (not that it was very dirty), added a little tuner cleaner for lubrication. It seems to operate exactly as it should, other than not being able to get rid of its 3 log load. Can there be a loss of power within the car itself? How do I test to see if the 15V is making it to the solenoid?

Thinking about the "third rail", I'm not sure what gauge wire I'm using, but does this accessory draw more than others? Lights do dim a bit when I unload the logs... Do I need to use a heavy gauge?

Thanks much!
Mike


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## Aflyer (Nov 10, 2010)

Mike, 
If the wheels are clean I would try measuring across the rails where the car is sitting and see if you have 15 volts there.
I have two of these cars, and one is actually doing similar things as yours. I haven't really spent any time trying to make it better, so this is about all the help I can provide. 

Aflyer


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## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

Aflyer,
Glad to hear I'm not alone.  So I checked while activating the car - and low and behold -- 8.4V. Ah, but that was too easy. I checked again without the car on the 3rd rail and...15.4V.

So would the car itself have a draw of 7V? I'm brand new to this whole multimeter thing -- for years I've considered electricity PFM (pure flippin' magic -- you flip it on, you flip it off. Magic.). How would I test the voltage across the car? What should I see when I do it?

This was all much easier when I was 10+ and my dad just set it up and it worked! hwell:

Thanks!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Look at the connections within the car, see if you have some poor connections somewhere.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Not to create more work for you, but maybe that 60 year old solenoid just can't perform anymore? It might be time to find a replacement for it?


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## Aflyer (Nov 10, 2010)

Don, 
I am sure that is a possibility, but interestingly enough I just read something in an S-Gaugian or a CTT magazine, about those old solenoids rarely failing. I guess I just want it to be a bad solder joint on a wheel truck, or something easy for flyer Mike and myself.

Aflyer


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

It's true they were very durable. Let's face it -- what's it made of? A coil of wire around a hollow steel core. The electrical principle has been around for a zillion years and always worked.

Perhaps a slightly bent rod? Maybe a break in the coil wire reducing magnetivity (is that even a word??) Just throwing stuff out there.....suggesting that another coil may work better. Won't know unless it's tried.

Is this the only operating car using a coil that you have on hand?


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Found this tip on a website from a Forum member who I haven't seen posting in quite a while. But he is very knowledgeable when it comes to Flyer operation. Perhaps this tip might help???
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I like running my trains on DC track voltage. It gets rid of the pesky mechanical reverse unit and I can dynamically control the direction the train travels. However, I like running the action cars off of AC voltage. I have found out two things that I will share.
1) When a track trip is on a mainline: I use a dedicated transfomer that I have put in phase with the track transformers. I connect their base posts. Now I can run an AC lead from the dedicated transformer to the car trip. The action car energizes when I push the car trip button and the current returns back via the common base post rail to the dedicated transformer. AC and DC voltage can co-exist on the same carrier.

2) When a track trip is on a through siding: When the action car is set out on a through siding and the switches are thrown to the mainline, the common base post connection is broken. I have found that I can use yet another dedicated transformer that I put in phase with all other transformers as a common practice. I do NOT, however connect the base post lead to the other transformers. Instead, I solder a wire to the base post rail on the through siding and take it straight back to the base post of that dedicated transformer. When I activate the track trip with the button, the car energizes and the current flows through the base post rail to the base post on the dedicated transformer via that wire. Also, if one of my locos is on that through siding when I activate the car trip, it stays motionless when power is applied to the mainline. This is because the base posts of the mainline transformer and the dedicated transformer are not connected. When I move the switch frogs to their divergent route, the base post rail connection is re-established and I can run the loco out onto the mainline. Obviously here again, AC and DC voltage can make nice with each other on a common carrier.
----------------------

This may not solve the supposed voltage drop, but it might solve other issues and seems like a great tip for creating layouts with Flyer action cars.


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## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

All --
Thanks very much for the suggestions. Unfortunately I'm traveling this week, but when I get home I'll take a closer look at the car. Frankly I'm with Aflyer and hope it is something easy!  I know it didn't "appear" like there was anything wrong with the wiring or solder points. But I look at it more intentionally. Definitely appreciate the advice.


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## AmFlyerMike (Apr 6, 2013)

Don, thanks for the suggestion of the bent rod on the plunger. I compared the plunger to the same piece on an operating dump car and sure enough, it was shorter! (And had started to mushroom a bit from hitting the metal flatbed). Swapped it out with the dump car which doesn't need to tip as far and voila - they both work great! :thumbsup:

Hardest part was thinking about this all week while traveling and not getting to play around with it until tonight. 

Final solution(s): power to the spur, bent/short rod on the plunger, fiber pins to isolate part of the spur for an idle engine.

Very glad I found y'all!


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Glad to have helped....that's why we're all here.


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