# Turnouts



## gtorob (Sep 8, 2012)

I am looking for info. On turnouts. Can anyone tell me what the major differences are between Atlas, Peco, and Walthers turnouts, and are those differences worth the price difference. I am building a new layout, HO scale, with NCE DCC. I have only used Atlas turnouts in the past, but am considering upgrading if it is worth it to do so.

Thank you,
Rob


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Good plan to change switch machine/motor*

For what it's worth, you could keep the turnouts and change the motors that move the points. This way there is no major movement and realignment of the already laid tracks. And you wouldn't have opened a can of worms, sort to speak.
Also, Tortus motors/machines have output voltage for driving signals, panel lights and what have you? Regard's,tr1


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## Mr. SP (Jan 7, 2015)

Use turnouts as large as possible. Number 4 turnouts have a sharp curve on the diverging route. Use 6 or 8 turnouts if possible.
Check the points when they are against the stock rails. Run your finger along the inside of the rail to check for burrs and places where the flanges could hit and cause derailments.
I used Atlas turnouts on my railroad and I filed the points to make sure the flanges foll through smoothely.
Also the joints in your track. Be sure there aree no burrs there either or anything that can derail things.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

Do a search on this & other MR forums on this subject. This topic has come up numerous times & often.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I think I'm correct in saying that Peco are the only ones out of those you listed that have a spring which snaps the blades from side to side, useful if you are not using motors. I've always used them and find them excellent. They come in both live and insulated frog versions. Is it worth changing? Only you will know that after trying a couple perhaps.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Most modellers have a favorite brand.

I had about 20 Atlas turnouts on my layout. I tired of
adjusting and putting locos and cars back on the track
due to turnout derails. I gave them to my brother and
installed all Peco Insulfrogs. You just do not have
derails with them. You see the quality when you take them
from the box. 

One caution, they are not a direct replacement for
other make turnouts, the dimensions are different.
You will have to make changes in your track.

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

DonR said:


> One caution, they are not a direct replacement for
> other make turnouts, the dimensions are different.
> You will have to make changes in your track.


This should not be a problem. The OP said he is building a new layout.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Well, there you have it gtorob. Go with Peco or stick with the Atlas and get your file out!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I would have to say that turnouts in Atlas's Snap Track line are of lesser quality, and can give problems, especially after they are old and well-used. Atlas Custom Line are better.

MicroEngineering, Walthers (and the identical Shinohara ones) and Peco are a step up in quality. Additionally, these brands look more prototypical, without the riveted hinges found on Atlas ones. MicroEngineering turnouts also have a "spring-snap" effect, like the Peco's, but they only make #6 configurations (as far as I know). They are very nicely detailed, though, and even come with a non-operational switch stand. Peco and Walthers both have an enormous variety to chose from.

Are they worth the price? Only you can answer that. For myself, I would rather spend time working on other parts of my layout and running trains than fighting with recalcitrant turnouts. In my opinion, trackwork is not the place to go cheap or take shortcuts.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> For myself, I would rather spend time working on other parts of my layout and running trains than fighting with recalcitrant turnouts. In my opinion, trackwork is not the place to go cheap or take shortcuts.


The real RRs call it "deferred maintenance" meaning they don't have the money to spend on even regular routine maintenance. But do agree MicroEngineering, Peco & Walthers (Shinohara) make the best switches. BTW that's the term used by real RRers. Ever heard of a "turnouter" loco? ha ha LOL >)


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> For myself, I would rather spend time working on other parts of my layout and running trains than fighting with *recalcitrant* turnouts


Yes, I too would rather run trains than deal with turnouts that have "an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward authority or discipline"..... (Oxford dictionary)....


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## gtorob (Sep 8, 2012)

Thank you all for your informative replies. Not skimping on turnouts / switches seems the prudent way to go. 

Rob


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> Yes, I too would rather run trains than deal with turnouts that have "an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward authority or discipline"..... (Oxford dictionary)....


Isn't English a great language? I'm sorry if the word was too long for you.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Un-necessarily long, in fact.....and not truly descriptive....."crappy" would have been more appropriate....


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The literary technique is called "anthropomorphism" -- and because that's another big word, I'll save you the trouble: "the assignment of human traits or characteristics to inanimate objects". Authors use it all the time: an angry sky, a raging river, a melancholy lake. 

I chose the word, and the technique,deliberately, to characterize the more or less unsolvable nature of problems with Atlas and other "crappy" turnouts.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

You're putting WAY too much thought into this.....but it sounds important....:stroke:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Old_Hobo said:


> You're putting WAY too much thought into this.....but it sounds important....:stroke:


Peace. I enjoy reading, and take pride in good writing; my own and others. That will never change, mo matter what.


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## D&J Railroad (Oct 4, 2013)

Walthers also makes a #10 turnout that looks really good on the mainline. I don't know of any larger turnout than that unless ya build it yourself.


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## lajrmdlr (Apr 25, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> The literary technique is called "anthropomorphism" -- and because that's another big word, I'll save you the trouble: "the assignment of human traits or characteristics to inanimate objects". Authors use it all the time: an angry sky, a raging river, a melancholy lake.
> I chose the word, and the technique,deliberately, to characterize the more or less unsolvable nature of problems with Atlas and other "crappy" turnouts.


In my college anthropology classes learned another term applicable here *"ethnocentrism"*. That's where a culture & the people look at the whole world as if their way is the only way. Sort of like someone here who always says that a switch should always be called a turnout. His reasoning is one is electrical only & the other is railroad only. But there have always been some words in any language which have multiple meanings. The term turnout has only been around model railroading maybe 50 years but the the term switch as used by real railroaders has been around at least 150 years! In fact the only railroaders who use turnout are RR civil engineers & not the RR operating personnel, i.e. conductors & engineers.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

lajrmdlr said:


> In my college anthropology classes learned another term applicable here *"ethnocentrism"*. That's where a culture & the people look at the whole world as if their way is the only way. Sort of like someone here who always says that a switch should always be called a turnout. His reasoning is one is electrical only & the other is railroad only


Gee, I never knew I was practicing "ethnocentrism"......sort of makes me feel impotent now! You know, another level above the commoners.....:laugh:

I thank you for the insight.....


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

lajrmdlr said:


> In my college anthropology classes learned another term applicable here *"ethnocentrism"*. That's where a culture & the people look at the whole world as if their way is the only way. Sort of like someone here who always says that a switch should always be called a turnout. His reasoning is one is electrical only & the other is railroad only. But there have always been some words in any language which have multiple meanings. The term turnout has only been around model railroading maybe 50 years but the the term switch as used by real railroaders has been around at least 150 years! In fact the only railroaders who use turnout are RR civil engineers & not the RR operating personnel, i.e. conductors & engineers.


That's why those who operate them are called "switchmen" and not "turnoutmen".


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

flyboy2610 said:


> That's why those who operate them are called "switchmen" and not "turnoutmen".


This subject comes up about once a month on the Forum.

It has been explained each time that the term 'turnout' 
is used for clarity when discussing, for exmaple, wiring.
For that reason we say turnout for the points, and switches
for the devices that control them. We all know that
switches, switchmen et al are the correct terms for
railroading.

Don


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

"Let it go Indiana".......


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

gtorob;
I share in the prior recommendations regarding Peco, Micro engineering, and Shinohara turnouts. All are good quality. All of them are also pretty expensive. That doesn't mean they're not worth the money.
Reliability is worth paying extra for.
If you have more time available than money, you can make your own turnouts for a fraction of the money, but at the cost of a lot more time. I make my own, and I think that it is possible to make a turnout that is better than anything you can buy. It costs me about $3-5 in material per turnout; but a week of time for each one. There is a popular myth that making your own turnouts is "really hard", or that only a few especially talented people can do it. The myth is just that, a myth. I certainly am not especially talented at anything. I have taught ten year old kids to make turnouts. Practically anyone can do it, it just takes much more time.
You, of course, are the one to make the decision to make, or buy ready made. I'm merely pointing out another option. The link below shows how I make my turnouts.

Regards;

Traction Fan


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Old_Hobo said:


> Gee, I never knew I was practicing "ethnocentrism"......sort of makes me feel impotent now! You know, another level above the commoners.....:laugh:
> 
> I thank you for the insight.....


Talk to your doctor if you're feeling impotent, they make a little blue pill for that.


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

traction fan said:


> gtorob;
> I share in the prior recommendations regarding Peco, Micro engineering, and Shinohara turnouts. All are good quality. All of them are also pretty expensive. That doesn't mean they're not worth the money.
> Reliability is worth paying extra for.
> If you have more time available than money, you can make your own turnouts for a fraction of the money, but at the cost of a lot more time. I make my own, and I think that it is possible to make a turnout that is better than anything you can buy. It costs me about $3-5 in material per turnout; but a week of time for each one. There is a popular myth that making your own turnouts is "really hard", or that only a few especially talented people can do it. The myth is just that, a myth. I certainly am not especially talented at anything. I have taught ten year old kids to make turnouts. Practically anyone can do it, it just takes much more time.
> ...


is it possible to handlay a switch to the atlas snap switch dimensions and still make it more reliable than an actual snap switch?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Traction fan will have to weigh in on this -- he's the expert. In my inexpert opinion, that wouldn't work very well. Here's my thought process.

One of the things that makes Atlas turnouts (and other inexpensive models) unreliable is the riveted hinge for the points, rather than a true turnout, which relies on the flexibility of the metal to move the points. Those rivets are prone to wobbling, and get worse as the turnout gets older. You could definitely improve this aspect with a hand laid turnout.

Now the other problem: the Atlas turnouts have a unique geometry -- part of which is created by the short length of the point rails (made possible by the hinge). Snap Switches aren't even standard #4 turnouts. So a true #4 will take up more space horizontally than the Snap Switch, to make your point rails long enough to move with leverage only (no hinge). Secondly, the diverging path of a Snap Switch is 1/6 of a 90 degree 18" curve, and a custom laid turnout, like the prototype, has straight diverging rails. Neither of these would be conducive to making your own to the Atlas footprint.

So that's my take (and I may be totally out in left field) -- now let's hear what an experienced turnout maker has to say on the subject.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Handlaid turnouts*



/6 matt said:


> is it possible to handlay a switch to the atlas snap switch dimensions and still make it more reliable than an actual snap switch?


 Heck yes! :thumbsup: One of the advantages of making your own turnout is that you can make it any size or shape you want. For example Different frog numbers, curved turnouts, wye turnouts, Etc. 
As for outdoing Atlas in reliability, I don't see that as much of a challenge! Atlas turnouts, particularly the low end "snap track" variety, are not very well made. This is why all those other brands, Peco, Micro Engineering, Shinohara, Walthers, were recommended.
They're all much better than Atlas snap track turnouts. It's also why their more expensive.
If you want to try making your own, send me a photo, and any other info you have on the
present turnout, and the track arrangement you want to fit the new one into. I'm assuming 
you want to make an HO scale turnout, but scale doesn't matter much. The method can be used in any scale. My turnout, shown in the photo link, is N scale. Once I have the info, we can take it from there 

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Making your own "snap switch"*



CTValleyRR said:


> Traction fan will have to weigh in on this -- he's the expert. In my inexpert opinion, that wouldn't work very well. Here's my thought process.
> 
> One of the things that makes Atlas turnouts (and other inexpensive models) unreliable is the riveted hinge for the points, rather than a true turnout, which relies on the flexibility of the metal to move the points. Those rivets are prone to wobbling, and get worse as the turnout gets older. You could definitely improve this aspect with a hand laid turnout.
> 
> ...


 I agree with most of the criticisms CT has made against Atlas "snap track" turnouts.
However I don't think what you want to do is impossible, or even all that difficult.
Weather you SHOULD, expend the time and effort to scratchbuild an Atlas clone is something you will have to decide. Those Atlas "snap switches" are sharp, and sloppy; but Ive built sharper (trolley) turnouts that were not sloppy and worked just fine. 
You might want to consider what kind of equipment you want to operate over the turnout, and weather you really need to retain 18" radius curves, or go bigger to handle longer cars and locos better. The forum, and hobby press, consensus, has always favored 22" or bigger for HO. 

Traction Fan :stroke:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

traction fan said:


> I agree with most of the criticisms CT has made against Atlas "snap track" turnouts.
> However I don't think what you want to do is impossible, or even all that difficult.
> Weather you SHOULD, expend the time and effort to scratchbuild an Atlas clone is something you will have to decide. Those Atlas "snap switches" are sharp, and sloppy; but Ive built sharper (trolley) turnouts that were not sloppy and worked just fine.
> You might want to consider what kind of equipment you want to operate over the turnout, and weather you really need to retain 18" radius curves, or go bigger to handle longer cars and locos better. The forum, and hobby press, consensus, has always favored 22" or bigger for HO.
> ...


So, I learned something today!

I agree with Traction Fan though.... just because you can doesn't mean you should. Although I certainly understand the motivation. It's no fun having to rip out large sections of a layout to replace a turnout (been there, done that, used the T-shirt for a rag).


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Tmi?*

gtorob;

I'm concerned that we may have overwhelmed you with too much information in response
to your turnout question.(that happens some times on the forum!):laugh:
Be assured, we will help with whatever you decide. It's your railroad and only you should
be deciding. If you want to keep 18" radius and build a copy of the Atlas "snap switch", that's OK. If you prefer using one of the commercial turnouts recommended, that's fine too.
It might help us if we knew more of your situation. You mentioned "starting a new layout".
Most modelers go through that same process. Seldom do we stay satisfied with our first effort.
As we gain Knowledge, and experience, we want to improve things. Can you tell us how much space you have available, and how much experience? That may help us give you better advice.

Thanks
Traction Fan


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

And a feel for your budget. Some of us [sheepishly raising my hand] have to stick fairly closely to one; others here can drop $500 on a new loco without thinking twice about it. It helps to know which end of that spectrum you favor.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Maybe we could have a tutorial or run down from Traction Fan or whoever, if they'd be good enough or feel so inclined. I've always thought building turnouts would be beyond me but I might just give it a go in view of the foregoing.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Turnout building video?*

Cycleops;

I'd be glad to, if there's enough interest. Problem is I'm a digital dummy and don't know how to make and post U-tube videos. If you're just itching to start building your first turnout,:laugh: 
the basic first steps are shown (somewhat) below. This is only the method I have used successfully; there are many others.
I start with a piece of 1/8" Luan plywood, cut to the shape of the turnout plus some extra on the edges. Screws, to hold the turnout down, will go in these margins later.
I use PC (printed circuit) copper clad ties. They are available from cloverhouse.com in several scales.
The ties are attached to the Luan roadbed with 3M mounting tape. (@ your local Walmart) 
This super sticky tape will hold the ties firmly in place. I usually apply pressure, with a vise briefly; as the adhesive in the tape is pressure sensitive. Once the ties are firmly in place, I add ballast glued down in the normal fashion with thinned white glue.
The first rail to be soldered on is always the straight rail. I use a steel, scale ruler to make sure it is as straight as I can possibly make it. The reason is that all other rails will be measured from this one with an NMRA standards gauge. That should be enough to get you started. If you seriously want to make some turnouts, I can post more info, hopefully with video, or at least more photos, later.

Traction Fan


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

I am following this thread. 

I have Atlas custom line and snap turnouts.

I am comparing both of them. It turned out that they are a little different on curve side. So I do not think that they can work together if they are connected together as crossover or double crossover. 

I have more snap line version than custom line version. Problem with the Snap line, they are little crooked when they were put together as either crossover or double crossover. 

Not sure if I call them correctly.

By crossover, I mean two RH or LH switches put together. 

For double crossover, I mean both 2 RH and 2 LH and "X" track put together.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

OOPS -- Deleted post that was put in wrong thread


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Not sure about the last post... grade related to Atlas turnouts? *scratching head* :dunno:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

bluenavigator said:


> I am following this thread.
> 
> I have Atlas custom line and snap turnouts.
> 
> ...


Neither of these products is ideal for that use, but two *matching* turnouts should be able to be placed with the diverging legs butted together, perhaps with a short straight segment between them, to produce a crossover. This in spite of the fact that the diverging legs are curved -- the biggest problem is that this setup creates an S curve which some longer equipment might not handle. If you can find a crossing piece with the right angle, a double crossover might be possible as well.


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Yea, will work on this and figure out the solution. Maybe using chainsaw will help? LOL


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

traction fan said:


> Cycleops;
> 
> I'd be glad to, if there's enough interest. Problem is I'm a digital dummy and don't know how to make and post U-tube videos. If you're just itching to start building your first turnout,:laugh:
> the basic first steps are shown (somewhat) below. This is only the method I have used successfully; there are many others.
> ...


Very interesting. How do you ensure that the frog stays in gauge to the outer rail of the curve? Also would it be possible to eliminate the straight lead in to a turnout without compromising the reliability of the turnout? An example being o-27 turnouts, if you had a left-hand curve of o-27 track and put a left hand turnout in the middle you would still have a complete curve of 0-27 track? Could you do that in the smaller scales too?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Your turnout questions*

/6matt;

First, I haven't looked at this thread for a long time, so I didn't know your questions were there. 
I keep frogs, and every other piece of rail, in gauge with a white, thermoplastic rail joint soldering tool.
I don't remember who made these things, but the same company made a cylindrical tool named 
"the ballast spreader". If you check on walthers.com you should be able to find them. I also use a three point track gauge made by Railcraft(now called Micro engineering). Final checks are done with my NMRA track gauge.
On your second question, yes, you can make a turnout in any shape that trains will run on.
This is one of the big advantages of scratchbuilding your own turnouts. Actually, I started making my own because, at the time, what I wanted wasn't being mass produced commercially.
A"turnout with the straight part deleted?" I'm guessing you mean something like a curved turnout. In a curved turnout, nothing has to be straight. I have built them this way to match two different curve radii. This is very handy in some situations, and can save a lot of space. I have not made turnouts in any scale but N, since that's the scale of my railroad. So I'm not familiar with the geometry of O-27 turnouts. The method I use would work equally well in any of the popular modeling scales
If you have any more questions for me, I recommend sending a private message. This will get my attention as soon as I go on the forum, and should get you an answer faster!

Sorry for the delay, hope that answers your questions;

Traction Fan hwell:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Avoiding/minimizing crossover "S" curves*

Bluenavigator;

A chainsaw is a bit extreme, but you may still be able to minimize the "S curve" by cutting off most of the curved leg of each turnout. A Dremel tool, or rail nippers, will do the job; without destroying the turnout.
Cut the curved legs off both matching,(preferably both custom line, but definitely not a mix of two different types) turnouts. Then you can insert a short piece of straight track, where those curves were. This should minimize the amount of curving,and separate the opposing direction curves.
"S curves" are about as sure a means of causing derailments as Laurence of Arabia planting dynamite under the rails! These curves should be avoided, as they are big trouble.
You could use the same procedure for a double crossover, possibly grafting in a truncated 
crossing of as close to the same angle as the turnouts frogs as possible. Personally, I would just scratchbuild the whole thing as one piece, but I know that's not for everyone.
A word of caution. Are you sure your railroad truly needs as complex a bit of trackwork as a double crossover? The big railroads avoid such trackwork as it is a major expense to build and especially to maintain. Things are not as reliable in the model world as on the prototype,
so think about it before you build in a potential derailment causer. Your railroad, your choice.

Regards;
Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Correction*



/6 matt said:


> Very interesting. How do you ensure that the frog stays in gauge to the outer rail of the curve? Also would it be possible to eliminate the straight lead in to a turnout without compromising the reliability of the turnout? An example being o-27 turnouts, if you had a left-hand curve of o-27 track and put a left hand turnout in the middle you would still have a complete curve of 0-27 track? Could you do that in the smaller scales too?


Bluenavigator;

Having just re-read your post above, I think I better understand your second question.
You want to insert a turnout into an existing curve, and still maintaining the original curve's geometry. Is that correct? If so, it's commonly done in HO and N scales by Atlas "snap track" turnouts. They are designed to do just that by including an 18" radius curve in the HO version and a 19" radius curve in the N scale turnout.
You can, and I do, duplicate this in a scratchbuilt turnout. However, an 18" radius curve in HO is pretty tight and some equipment can't negotiate it reliably. I would recommend that a
22" or bigger radius be built in instead. That way, most HO locos will run through reliably.
Atlas "cleaned up their act" a bit when they designed their N scale "snap switch". As stated above it includes a 19" radius curve, a broad curve in N scale. This can handle any 
N scale loco or car. In my N scale turnouts, I incorporate the same 19" radius curve. This touches on your first question. I shape the rails entering, and leaving, the frog to match
a 19" radius curve section of track.

Hope that help[s you;

Traction Fan


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Yes, that is what I am asking about. 

It seems that "Snap Track" turnout is the one to use since I had checked on existing 18" radius track. Have to tweak on part to fit in there. 

I do consider doing the hand-laid turnouts since it will fit and make the tracks more smooth and not have any derailing during the operation. 

The tracks are not nailed down yet. Just playing around before they are being nailed down for good. That's nice about having a foam on the table so I can move them around and make sure that they are fitting correct and being smooth. 

I am watching many youtube videos based on custom turnouts. They are quite interesting.


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