# Ok,im confused??(My Standard Gauge Engine)



## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

What type of transformer do you need to run this?I had this guy "supposedly" fix this but he's telling me he can get it working properly.He replaced both motors but he said when he puts it on the track,it will go around a couple times and just stop.He said he replaced the armatures(think thats right) he's had this since last Oct. and i just now got it back a few days ago.He charged me $65 for his work which i did'nt care,i just wanted it back...but when he did run this at his shop for me to show me what it was doing,he was using what looked like a newer transformer for an O scale train cuz i have the same one he was using for my O sale train.So i hooked mine up when i got home and it did the same thing,so could it be not enough power and should'nt he have known this?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

if it is running then stopping it is getting to hot (the motors) or the improper voltage and ac/dc is being aplied. I believe they work with lionel transformers for O gauge but I will let someone else chime in that owns one or know a bit more then me.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Is that a Lionel loco?

I'm a Lionel O guy, not Standard guy, but I'd be reasonably certain that Standard of that vintage ran on AC power, perhaps up to 18 or 20 VAC would be my guess. You're gonna get that out of most modern AC Lionel transformers, so I don't suspect that the transformer is the issue.

Are all of the gears, bearings, pivot points, etc. well lubricated and not gunked up with old grease?

TJ


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

yes,its lionel and what parts would be the most importand to lube?Im really dont want to put something where it does'nt go seeing as i never done this before,im still really new to all this.They are bothe new motors so i dont see why it would'nt work better.


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

few more pics....


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Something just does not look right from those pictures. I am not sure what but that middle piece in the middle pic does not look right at all. That and all the wiring so loose does not look right.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gc53dfgc said:


> Something just does not look right from those pictures. I am not sure what but that middle piece in the middle pic does not look right at all. That and all the wiring so loose does not look right.



Looks like a very sloppy job with the wiring.
In spots they look like they are rubbing or soon will be.

Where did you find "the guy"?


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

big ed said:


> Looks like a very sloppy job with the wiring.
> In spots they look like they are rubbing or soon will be.
> 
> Where did you find "the guy"?


at a place called Ormandys in medina,OH ormandys.com


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

im afraid to take it anywhere else now,the guy said it was a nightmare....not sure i want it gone somewhere else for another 9 months  but i want it fixed so bad!!!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chris025 said:


> im afraid to take it anywhere else now,the guy said it was a nightmare....not sure i want it gone somewhere else for another 9 months  but i want it fixed so bad!!!



In this picture,look at the alignment of the wheels. The one on the left looks crooked, like it was dropped a the nose bent a little?









Look at every tooth on the gears make sure that no teeth are missing. ( make sure no wires are working their way up into the gears too.) Add a few drops of oil 20/50 will work. Just don't over do it.

Clean the wheels where they ride the rail. Dremel tool with a fine stainless wire brush works. Goo gone works too.

Clean the track too, use the green brite pads and goo gone and rub them down just the tops mainly. After you brighten them up take a clean cloth and wipe them down with IPA. (Isopropanol) rubbing alcohol you can buy in the food store.

Sure sort of looks like the trucks (sets of wheels) are out of alignment. 
And if those wires are not rubbing yet they soon will be.
A little shrink tube harness would have looked better and protect them too.

Well for $65 bucks you did get some new parts.

Do you know how to take the shell off?
date on it says 1929. cool:thumbsup:


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I would have to see it running or hold it in my hands to be able to further diagnos the problem. Its strange I have never heard of him. I live in Ohio so this si the reasoning. I know some people say they are licensed to service them and have the proof but they still know nothing about what they are doing. (story time) I have a N&W Class J3a from MTH that I dropped when I was younger. It took him several months and then when it was back he just said he could not fix it or had tried everything. Well good old me decided to explore the doomed engine and lo and behold i discovered what was wrong. It looks like I had messed up the main PCB board which not even he could diagnose and get a new one from MTH which a parts person could have done at that time. But I decided not to spend more money on it and ended up making it a dummy engine that my other J3 pulls as a double header. Now I just need to add a new smoke unit and then a coupler to the front and it is done. So it just prooves because they say they can they can not always. A good thing to ask is if they have ever worked on something like what you are bringing to them.


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

trucks are fine,just did'nt straighten them to take the pic  
I do not know how to take the shell off....why do i need too?
where can i get goo gone at?

thanks for all your help!!


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

gc53dfgc said:


> I would have to see it running or hold it in my hands to be able to further diagnos the problem. Its strange I have never heard of him. I live in Ohio so this si the reasoning. I know some people say they are licensed to service them and have the proof but they still know nothing about what they are doing. (story time) I have a N&W Class J3a from MTH that I dropped when I was younger. It took him several months and then when it was back he just said he could not fix it or had tried everything. Well good old me decided to explore the doomed engine and lo and behold i discovered what was wrong. It looks like I had messed up the main PCB board which not even he could diagnose and get a new one from MTH which a parts person could have done at that time. But I decided not to spend more money on it and ended up making it a dummy engine that my other J3 pulls as a double header. Now I just need to add a new smoke unit and then a coupler to the front and it is done. So it just prooves because they say they can they can not always. A good thing to ask is if they have ever worked on something like what you are bringing to them.



good story,so do you think i should get a 2nd opinion?Where in ohio are u from?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

chris025 said:


> trucks are fine,just did'nt straighten them to take the pic
> I do not know how to take the shell off....why do i need too?
> where can i get goo gone at?
> 
> thanks for all your help!!


you mean the trucks pivot? 
they move around? 
they are supposed too?

I never worked on one.hwell: 
I will research it some.

goo gone is sold all over.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...+gone&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

unless it is the picture, the screws on the cow catcher look a little like they are bent some to the left. looks odd.


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

big ed said:


> you mean the trucks pivot?
> they move around?
> they are supposed too?
> 
> ...


i think i misunderstood u,if your talking about the top left wheel,its fine..just the way the pic was taken,nothing is bent anywhere and it runs a few times around the track but then slows down and just stops.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Getting a second opinion on it would be a very good idea but the forums is really the best place for it. I am from Troy, Ohio where the famous Strawberry Festival is held.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

I don't have any standard gauge, but it's basically just a bigger version of their O gauge line.

Ed, yes the trucks are supposed to move (like a diesel's).

As for a second opinion on why it's not working, the forums really aren't the best place for it. Unless someone really knows standard gauge well or have had the same problem, they aren't going to easily diagnose the problem without seeing it in person. From here, it looks like a messy job of wiring (as mentioned) which should probably be redone again while making sure the wires are going to the correct places (I wouldn't even trust the repair guy with that, he might have missed a step somewhere).

If you can get parts, you may want to replace the third rail shoes at some point. They look pretty worn out (make sure they are clean too when you do the wheels)

You might also want to mention what type of O gauge transformer you are using. I have trouble running postwar pull-mors off of my Lionel CW-80 (80 Watt transformer). You basically have two open frame motors (I think...) and they will take up a lot of juice.

Good luck with figuring out the problem.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The first thing I'd do is run it free-standing on test blocks and measure the current it draws. You may simply be trying to get more out of the transformer than it can deliver.

You need to take the shell off and see if the motors rotate freely.


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The first thing I'd do is run it free-standing on test blocks and measure the current it draws. You may simply be trying to get more out of the transformer than it can deliver.
> 
> You need to take the shell off and see if the motors rotate freely.


how do i get the shell off?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chris, etc.

Not really answering any question here, but I just noticed something interesting in the photos ...

It appears that the motor circuit ground (electricity return path to outer rails) is not through the drive wheels themselves, but rather through the little cylindrical "wiper" that's attached to the forward-reverse manual switch that's mounted midway between the motors. Very interesting ... I've never seen a setup like that.

Along those lines, I do have that same style manual switch in a few of my prewar O locos (but without the ground-wiper). One needs to make sure that the spring tension between the two rotating disc parts of the switch is sufficient for the 4 electrical contacts in the switch to have proper conductivity. I'm just wondering if your switch is loose, and somehow after a few laps, one of the contacts loosed conductivity. Not likely, but worth a look.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

We need more closeup pictures of the entire bottom to hazard a guess as how to take the shell off. I see one thing that might be it. See if the screws below are on both ends, they appear to hold the chassis to the shell.


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

tjcruiser said:


> Chris, etc.
> 
> Not really answering any question here, but I just noticed something interesting in the photos ...
> 
> ...


I did'nt understand one word of that  lol,but im going to print this out and show it to the next guy im gonna have take a look at it so i appreciate all your help on this matter.I just want it running properly,know what i mean?Thanks again:thumbsup:


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> We need more closeup pictures of the entire bottom to hazard a guess as how to take the shell off. I see one thing that might be it. See if the screws below are on both ends, they appear to hold the chassis to the shell.


I will try to get some better pics for ya:thumbsup:


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

Ok,heres the best i could do without getting them too blury,hope this helps...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, those screws appear to just hold the cowcatcher on, so I guess that's not it.


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

Before you take anything apart, find a cw80 80 watt transformer and test it on that. I know for a fact, most of my postwar locos trip out any 80s or 90s era ac transformer i've ever used.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've run dozens of PW locomotives on a 1033, and it runs them all fine. I've never seen a single properly working locomotive cause it to trip the breaker. I have four 1033's, and at various times, they've all been used with similar results.

What is the exact transformer you have, make and model?


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've run dozens of PW locomotives on a 1033, and it runs them all fine. I've never seen a single properly working locomotive cause it to trip the breaker. I have four 1033's, and at various times, they've all been used with similar results.
> 
> What is the exact transformer you have, make and model?


its in storage now but its the one that goes with this...it is an 80watt though


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

So much for the recommendation for the CW-80, that's the transformer you have. 

Truthfully, I'd go with one of the PW ones like the 1033 or larger anyway. The CW-80 has a checkered history, and many of them have some significant issues. It was so bad that Lionel was replacing them for free for a spell, that should tell you something.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

There was a bad batch of CW80's when they first came out. I forget the exact problem, but people have been on the watch to avoid them. Perhaps your is in that early lot?

TJ


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## x_doug_x (Jun 21, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> There was a bad batch of CW80's when they first came out. I forget the exact problem, but people have been on the watch to avoid them. Perhaps your is in that early lot?
> 
> TJ




Doubtful, not if it was tripping both the hobby stores transformer and his. Maybe the contacts all just need cleaned really well.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think the first step here is to get the shell off and do some looking around for the issue. We can guess all we want, but I doubt that's going to get it going.


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

well guys,seems like im screwed here....i just took it down do another shop and the guys telling me it looks like this is something he does'nt want to tackle,reason is cuz he noticed on one motor that the brush isn't doing what its supposed to i guess(dont understand the train language u guys do ) he tried to explain but i just was'nt understanding,also he said it looked like i might need a new armature and it would be hard for him to find parts and he does'nt have many "connections" so he's going to ask around in the fall at some train shows for me and if he comes up with anything,he'll give me a call.Another option he said i could do is to cut 2 of the wires that go to that brush and just run 1 motor,what do u guys think??


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chris,

I looked in my Lionel prewar catalog book by David Doyle. What you have is a 42, Type II loco, first offered in 1913. Initially, these only had one motor on one set of wheels, with a dummy motor on the other. "In 1921, a second powered motor replaced the dummy motor ..."

So ... your loco is 1921 or thereafter; earlier versions did run on one motor.

However, this is a valuable loco ... Doyle has it at $275 for very good to $500 for like new.

Accordingly, you should fiddle with it's authenticity as little as possible. Cutting wires to one of the motor will get it to run, but make sure you don't alter/remove anything else from that "now-dummy" motor.

I also noted that Doyle offers the following:

"Some, but not all, 42's were supplied with a Universal Current Controller switch."

Do any of you other forum guys know what that means? Were locos with the switch setup to run on either AC or DC power? I don't know if Chris has that so-called switch or not (though there is a switch of some type between the motors/wheels).

Chris, you might twist the ear of some parts suppliers for info on these old prewar motors, brushes, armatures, etc. ...

John posted a good list of suppliers here:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?p=82353

Cheers,

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Chris,

UPDATE --

I just got off the phone with Jeff Kane who runs the Train Tender online parts store. I happened to ask him whether he specialized in 1920's standard-gauge motor parts/repairs, or whether he know some who does. He passed along the following recommendation, with his 5-star recommendation:

Bob Hannon
410-531-3244
http://www.trainrefs.com/

Jeff says that Bob specializes in the rebuild / armature rewinding and repair of prewar motors, and that he's very friendly/helpful to talk to.

Give Bob a ring.

TJ

===

For future Search hits ...

standard gauge motor repair
armature rewiring


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## chris025 (Apr 3, 2008)

awesome,i'll give him a buzz,thanks alot tj


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

*Universal Current Controller Switch*



tjcruiser said:


> I also noted that Doyle offers the following:
> 
> "Some, but not all, 42's were supplied with a Universal Current Controller switch."
> 
> Do any of you other forum guys know what that means? Were locos with the switch setup to run on either AC or DC power? I don't know if Chris has that so-called switch or not (though there is a switch of some type between the motors/wheels).


Chris, others ...

I was very curious about that "Universal Current Controller switch", and did a quick Google search. I hit the jackpot for info on it and your 42 loco:

http://www.tinplatetimes.com/Tinplate History/Lionel 42 Wiring/42.htm

"Universal Current Controller (Patent Applied For) A Unique device is affixed to these locomotives so that by simply moving a lever the windings of the motors are changed to series (which is the best winding when they are operated on the reduced direct current) or to multiple (which is the best connection when operated on reduced alternating current or on dry or storage batteries)."​
I.e., a toggle for running best on AC vs. DC power.

Chris, note the loco wiring diagram in the link, too.

The weblink is to a site by someone named Jim Kelly. I don't know anything about him, but he could be a great resource, too, as he's clearly spent some time rebuilding a dual-motored 42 loco.

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Chris, others ...
> 
> I was very curious about that "Universal Current Controller switch", and did a quick Google search. I hit the jackpot for info on it and your 42 loco:
> 
> ...



Patient applied for.:laugh:

well, it looks more like you don't take the shell off, but instead take the engine out.

good find TJ:appl::thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

In looking at the link's photos, and Chris' photos above, I'm not sure if his switch is a UCC switch, or simply a fwd-reverse direction switch.

It looks to me like the weblink loco has both switches (UCC and reverse), whereas Chris' might just have the reverse switch.

I'm wondering if the guy who worked on Chris' loco wired it appropriately / accordingly.

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

read what he wrote,

maybe that switch is vibrating to DC after running a while?

Tape it? rubber band it? to test it.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

So did you finally get your engine fixed or is it still waiting/out for the redo?


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## DCDilley (Feb 21, 2012)

*Standard guage power*

My 1929 Blue Comet standard gauge uses a TRAIN MASTER type KW transformer rated for 190 watts. May not be of help, but it's about all I can tell you as I am new to the world of trains as well as standard guage.
Don


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