# automatically alternating between mainline and siding wiring



## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

I've seen how to wire Lionel 0-27 switches so the train automatically alternates between the mainline and a passing siding. I'm wondering how to do this with Atlas HO snap switches as far as wiring involved. Thanks for any info.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Would depend on what level of wiring you want ? I'm of the old school where I like (understand?) relays better than IC work. For my use, I would look at a detection devise tied to a relay to flip the switch machine back and forth. Detection can be IR so that the engine will break a beam or something more mechanical like a micro switch which flips as the train passes. From there it is really a matter of working out what you understand and want to use. It often will take some real personal design work to get just what you want it to do.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks Pfunmo!


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Hope that didn't sound like just blowing you off or such. If you have more questions about actually getting the right wiring, there are likely to be several around who can make suggestions. What I meant is that there are several ways from the more basic up to getting almost into letting a computer run the whole deal. 
I'm guessing you may be thinking of something like a small layout where the train takes a siding, sets for a time and then comes out again? Or maybe where it goes around a loop and comes back to the main and you want the switch thrown correctly? 

That's where having a basic idea of what you want it to do will have to come into play first before too much wiring design can get going.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

No I didn't think that at all, no problem. t's a small trolley layout that would alternate continuosley from main to siding and back without stopping.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Okay! I might look at using stall motors to move the turnout. Familiar with them? I find them expensive but they have some real advantages when it comes to lasting. Rather than rely on a quick shot of power to flip the switch and then have the power removed, they are built to last when power is applied and left on. They go to the far end of their swing and then "stall" until power is applied in the other direction. That makes it a bit easier to just put the power on and leave it rather than worry about getting the turnout thrown and then how to hold it there. 
But then, that is where much of the fun comes into figuring what you want!


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Don't know much about them or wiring them. Maybe I'm better off just manually hitting the switch machines.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Your choice for sure but if you get around to them, they are reasonably simple to wire. I may also be confusing the issue with the name. Tortoise may be a more familiar name for them. They are a basic small DC motor. You can use a small wall wart power supply with a switch to control the power going to it. For a switch that you would be willing to do manual, it makes the whole wiring much better. I was thinking of a diplay type that might run itself. 
Like a small drawing of wiring one? I can draw one up here shortly with a little thought!


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes, I've heard of tortoise machines,Thanks, I'd appreciate it!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Dennis

Don't give up so easy...some of us old hands like the
challenge of providing a solution for ideas like yours.

Not sure that I understand how you would run the Trolley though:

Would it be an oval track, for example, and continuously running
around it and each circuit it would alternate between main or siding?

Or did you intend it to go to 'forward' to the end of a track,
reverse, and return to the other end of the track,
alternating between main and siding as it did so?

Don


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I have some drawings done in Paint. Now the question may be whether I know how to post them for this forum. LOL


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

The idea I propose is to use a switch called a DPDT, either a toggle or a slide switch, wired so that it reverses the polarity (+/-) of the power going to the tortoise. Not hard to do once you se the idea. Reversing the polarity, makes the stall motor go all the way one direction and then when you flip the switch it reverses the motor to go all the way the other direction. 
Overall idea of wiring the switch:
http://s990.photobucket.com/user/Pfunmo/media/reverseswitch.jpg.html

Adding the switch to the motor:
http://s990.photobucket.com/user/Pfunmo/media/stallmotor1.jpg.html

You then have to work out a way to mount the motor under ths turnout and run a wire up to the throwbar of the turnout. Keep in mind that this motor will run one way or the other depending on the power coming in. So there is no sweat which wires go where. If it runs backwards to what you want-- reverse the wires. These are super reliable for throwing switchs and I love them but if one gets into doing a whole layout at $10+/- each, they can begin to get too much for me to enjoy. 

Lots of other guys can tell you some other ways you might want to go. Feel free, guys, this is just my first idea!


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Oh k, sorry Don. Yes it's an oval with straight tracks on the sides with a siding on the curved end of the oval not on the straight sides, if that helps.


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## norgale (Apr 4, 2011)

Pfunmo got a pin in my map for you. Good to have another Texan on there.
Dennis one question, when you say "Automatic" do you mean that you want the trolley to alternate which track it uses without you having to throw a switch? In that case you will need some kind of sensor on the track that will activate the turnout when the train goes by. Check out what some guys are doing with crossing gates/lights. There was a thread on here somewhere with just the thing for what your talking about. Do a search for crossing lights and see what you can find. 
Also some pictures of your setup would be nice if you can. Pete


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Dennis

It sure does help...now we can get some brain power on line
and see what solution we can find to make it automatic. 

So the scheme is to have the trolley running around the oval
continuously and each time it comes to the siding on the
curve it will change the turnout from what it was the last
trip and do this repeatedly. Main route, Siding route, Main
route, Siding route til the cows come home. 
A different route each trip.

What Pfunmo suggests is perfect for manually operating what
you want. 

Give us a day or two to mull. 

Don


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Exactly! Thanks to you and Pfunmo appreciate it!


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm most likely guilty of thinking of a solution before I knew what was wanted. My brains are half cooked already from being in the attic changing out a coax to get my internet and TV working. 
As for putting a pin on the map, I may be a big disappointment for a Texan! I'm only a Texas living guy for a couple years now. That leaves me still thinking it should NOT be 81 degrees at 9:30 PM! 
Back to the question? Is this siding a full run around siding or does the train need to reverse to run back out? Full run around track will require two sets of turnout throws of whatever sort. One for the switch going in and one for it at the far end to come out?? But then that is also less challange than throwing the switch, reverse the engine,etc.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

No problem. Read DonR just above my latest That is the layout


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Dennis

I've come up with a very simple circuit using a 
twin coil latching relay that can throw the Tortoise
turnouts with the stall motors. Both turnouts will
throw at the same time.

Pfumnmo. As one who has worked in electro mechanical
systems, I think you will see what I'm getting at. I Would
value your comments.

There will be a sensor (normally open micro switch would do it) in the track.

The relay will have 3PDT contacts. 2 coil magnets moving the contacts.

Contact set 1: Connects relay Coil A to plus when latched UP 
Connects relay Coil B to plus when latched DOWN


The the closed microswitch connects to ground thus
relay throws when it is tripped.

The above is what accomplishes the alternate route

Contact set 2: Connects Tortoise to Plus when latched UP 
Connects Tortoise to Minus when latched DOWN 

Contact set 3: Connects Tortoise to Minus when latched UP 
Connects Tortoise to Plus when latched DOWN 

These contacts reverse polarity to power the
Tortoise stall motors

Then round and round she goes...when she stops, no one knows. 

There would need to be an additional circuit to provide only a momentary pulse if used with twin coil turnout motors.

If the trolley goes in one direction only, just one microswitch would be
required. It would be located back far enough that the slow tortoise
motors could complete the turnout throw.

If the trolley goes both directions we'd need to rethink
the circuit but that could be done also.

I have used a relay of this type on a previous model layout.
Best I can recall it cost around 10 bucks, likely more now.
A microswitch is 2 or 3 bucks...so your biggest outlay
would be the tortoise motors. Think my brother paid around
11 $ for his. I use Peco twin coil motors.

I love relays. 

Don


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I have to draw things out to check for sanity but sounds like a plan. 
Just a side note on sources for microswitches? In my area, junk microwaves are often on Craigslist for free if you can beat the scrap folks. They all have several really neat little switches on them. The door switch is one place to look.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry guys, I don't understand any of this. I can do basic wiring but have never taken it beyond that.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry not to have gotten back to this sooner. I have some type of major problem with the computer/ internet. Some gets there twice and some never does! 

For the current deal, this sounds like a real opportunity to pick up some real good experience without a lot of pain. Don't shy away because it is not real clear. This is a group who has vast, but different experience and many are willing to share. Sounds like a good time to wade into a smaller project and get the feet wet on a more simple item so that later you may want to go full bore? 

How about for current use, just go with adding a couple turnouts motors (tortoise?) to throw the switches when you throw a toggle switch? Save the tough stuff like automatic sensing for later when it will seem less complex? If that would fit, there is nothing that can't be explained if we give it some time. 

This would give you a layout where you controlled the engine speed/direction and had one toggle switch to throw to control whether it went into the siding and out the other side or stayed on the main. I encourage you to go for it but I also won't push it if it doesn't suit you!! If you want to deferr on committing to do the job, we can still run through TALKING about it, even if you decide not to build it.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks, I'll try it.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Okay! If I can get my INTERNET to work, how about we start out like you were a new born and know next to nothing about electronics? Not meant to be an insult but I find it better to not assume things are clear if we have not talked about it. Okay? No offense if I act like that? I trained clerks and operators who came out to be techs for the telephone company. I found it paid to be sure! 

Basic DC is a great place to start and that is what we want for the tortoise. That makes it handy to use any 12v DC like an old power supply from some electronic gizmo. In this case the motor can run in either direction, so which wire goes where is no big thing. One wire from the supply tied to one wire of the motor and the second tied to the other side will make the motor turn in one direction. If we reverse those two sets of wires, the motor will run in the other direction. Since we don't want to rewire to change it, we put a switch in that is wired to reverse the two sides (polarity). The trick is looking at the back of a double-pole (two wires) and double throw ( two ways to throw it) switch. Whether you like a toggle or a slide switch, there will be six connections on the back. The center two lugs can be tied to the two leads from the motor. When the switch is in one position, the center lugs are connected to the two lugs at one end or the other. Flip the switch and the center lugs are then tied to the two lugs at the opposite end. 

So instead of us rewiring the two sets of wires, we wire the switch so that power at one set of outer lugs is reversed to what the other set of outer lugs has. We flip the switch and the power reverses! 

I'll get a picture of a couple switches to look at.


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry, double post!


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I got a couple pics. 
First is three DPDT switches from the backside. Two toggle type on the left and a slide switch on the right. They look slightly different but all have six lugs! Depending on the switch position, the center two lugs are connected to an outer two lugs. Flip the switch and it is then connected to the two lugs on the far end. 









Second pic is of a small switch wired to reverse things. 
See the red/black wires going down around the side from one end to the other? This is where the "magic" happens! Those two wires make an "X" to reverse the power when the switch is flipped. 









We put the two wires from a motor on the center and power from the supply on two lugs at either end and it reverses when we move the switch. This could also be done by putting the power on the center lugs and connecting the motor to the outer lugs. No difference for this circuit. 

Way back on the first drawing, the dashed orange lines represent this "X" in the wiring.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

The photos help, Thanks! So does the reversing switch throw the switch automatically back the other way like it's name applies?


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes. By tying the two motors on two turnouts, flipping the switch will throw both turnouts at the same time. or a dozen if one gets crazy! It normally takes some playing with reversing the wires to get it straight so that the turnouts wind up where you want. But then with 12v DC from a small power supply we can just use a couple jumper clips or just hold it on the lugs while we see if it goes the direction we want.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks!


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm definitly getting some weird stuff on posting. I know that the second picture was posted as the first one and I'm not even sure how to underline things. 

The simple thinking way to go on wiring the motors might be to wire one and get it running the correct direction and then tap the wires for the second motor onto the same wires as the first. That kind of gives you a chance to get the fell of success without as much confusion by having two motors. Best of luck and if there are other questions just keep asking. 

Forums get pretty stale if nobody has questions.


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## dennis h. pateras (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks again!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Pfunmo

Great explanation and directions. Bet a bunch of guys learned
something.

Don


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## Mayhem (Mar 25, 2013)

Well, I was going to suggest using 2 micro switches (or tripping mechanism) installed past the turnout switch. If you are using an electric switching with the 3 wire hook (L M R) (left middle right) up it will be easy. Those switches only throw one direction once you hit the contact. Wire switch to let’s say the L and M to the main and R and M the other siding. Walla. For a short trolley you won't get much if any extra noise. Wire the 2 returning switches just the opposite but have both thrown together. I think I said this correctly...Once trolley goes past the main switch it will hit the micro and automatically switch the turn to the siding track and once on the siding track, it trips the micro back to the main…Clear as mud?


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Lots of different ways to do the same thing sometimes. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm saying my way is the only way but just want to throw in my thoughts on the twin coil.

Many people use them and they work fine but my thinking is that they are sometimes a problem. I first started with the idea that it would be a stand alone fully auto system. With that in mind I was reluctant to use a switch machine that might burn out if power was applied too long. My thinking was that momentary switches have a way of finding ways to stick and apply power full time. Bent mechanism, balky throws and such always seemed to follow me when I tried to let them do it without me watching! 

I fully admit that I'm more inclined to want things to work really well. I really hate things that interrupt my play!


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Pfunmo

I use Peco under table twin coil motors for my Peco turnouts and
sure don't want to burn 'em up as I did years ago with Atlas motors.
So mine are powered by a Capacitor Discharge circuit. It has enuf
kick to throw 4 or 5 turnouts at the same time so I can use
one button to create a route in my yard, yet, until you release the button it
goes completely dead protecting against burnout. Recharges almost instantly then.

Don


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## Pfunmo (Feb 21, 2013)

Cap discharge units are a definite plus. Have you noticed that the items that would save the new user are not often used by the new guy? No matter what hobby I get into, it seems I never get the "good stuff" until I've run through all kinds of trouble with the bad stuff. 
About the time I got around to being willing and able to afford the stall motors for switching, I also got around to deciding I liked manual turnout throws and the personal feel it gave to throwing switches. It does limit the layout when all switches have to be within arms length but then motivation is also limiting the layout size so it all seems to work together!


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