# Engine 671 has start problem



## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi,
I too am new to the forum and looking for a little help. My friend passed away about 5 years ago and this year his wife asked if I could look at his Lionel train set and see if I could get them running for the grand kids. 

The set is post war O scale and I would figure it was around 1956 when he got the trains. The engine is a steam locomotive 671. I see references to engine numbers and I assume that its the number painted/stamped on the engines side. The engine has 8 drive wheels and 4 leading and 4 trailing wheels.

The engine worked when I first tried it out and the light and smoke worked as well.

I lubricated the wheels (very sparingly) and the locomotive ran even better than before. However, it started to show signs of slowing and at one point would no longer move. The engine always seemed to have a problem starting. By that I mean 1/4 throttle would make the engine "hum" and when the throttle was increased the engine would move. 

Now at 1/4 throttle it still makes the same hum but when I increase it to full throttle it just hums louder. The voltage in the track is at 15 volts at full throttle which is the same as the output from the transformer. When the engine is on the tracks and full throttle, the voltage is then running at about 8 volts. 

Any ideas or suggestions? Like I said, I'm new to this and just created this thread. If there was a Lionel 101 thread, I would have placed it there.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

Welcome to the forum. It's always nice to hear a story of people breathing new life back into an old train.

There a few different production-run version of the 671. The loco was introduced in 1946, and then underwent a substantial mechanical redesign for production runs 1947 and thereafter. Here's some tech specs ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-46.htm

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-47.htm

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-52.htm

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671rr.htm

As to your problem ...

These locos have an "e-unit" which is an auto-reverse device. Essentially, when the e-unit is engages, the loco will alternate from forward to neutral to reverse to neutral (repeat) with each transformer throttle-down/throttle-up. When power is on, an electromagnet solenoid is lifted to a raised position. When power (throttle) is off, the solenoid drops down (via gravity), engaging a drum-like contact switch. This switch redirects power per the f-n-r-n cycle, above.

That said, e-units can go bad. It's possible that the solenoid is stuck or non-operative, and that the loco is simply "hung" in its last position, which could be neutral. Hence, a hum, but no motion. Or, it's possible that the solenoid is working OK, but that the drum (or its mating contact fingers) are bumped out of position/alignment.

Here's some descriptive info on e-unit service ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=615

And here's great thread on e-unit service, with a fabulous two-part video of "how to perform e-unit surgery" given in post 20 of this thread:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3040

Do you know how to remove the shell of the loco to expose the motor? Per my comments above, I'd first suspect the e-unit, but the problem could be more simple ... it may be that a wire from the e-unit to the loco's motor itself has simply broken / shorted out.

Photos of the motor would help in the diagnosis.

Regards,

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Besides what TJ said.
The whole engine just might need a good servicing (cleaning).

Did you try moving the e unit lever back and forth on top of the engine?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The most likely problem is that the E unit switch is intermittent. The insulator board that the switch is mounted on tends to warp making the contact between the switch and the rivet intermittent. There are several ways to fix this problem which have been posted. My solution is to remove the loco shell and move the lever so I can use a pair of pliers to gently bend the arm of the lever that contacts the rivet. Another way is to build up the rivet with solder. You can determine if the switch needs fixing by moving it side to side. You should feel a detent at one side and the lever should move solidly into the detent. If there is slop in the detent, the switch needs service.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thank you so much for the quick and very informative replies. It is very much appreciated. As to the E unit, I think you might have hit on it. I was able, at the beginning, to get the engine to reverse. It did it twice and I was never able to get it to happen again. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. I guess not.

As far as the switch unit on the engine, there it none. Does that mean that I have the "revamped' version from 1947? 

I will check out the video. One more question, if the E unit is at fault, can a replacement be found somewhere? Does Lionel sell these parts. Again, thanks for the info.

Joe


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It is likely the loco needs lubricated. For this you will have to remove the shell. On this loco that is very easy. Use 5W-20 motor for lubrication for everything. There is a hole in the motor housing that needs oil to oil the motor bearings. There is a worm gear on the end of the motor shaft that needs lube. The driver axles need to be lubed as do the side rods. The motor drives the rear axle and the other drivers are driven by the side rods. Lube the pilot truck and trailing truck. If it turns or slides, lube it. Lube the roller pickups. Lube the tender wheels and roller pickups. Lube the car wheels. You can pour a little oil into a lid from a milk bottle and use a bend paper clip or toothpick to put a drop of oil where needed. You should remove the tender shell and lube the whistle motor. The whistle motor has two bearings. One you can easily see, the other is buried below the armature. Put a drop or two of oil on each bearing.

Now if you want things to really work smoothly, remove the brush plate from both motors and clean the commutator, brushes, and brush plate with alcohol. Clean out the commutator slots. You can polish the commutator and the ends of the brushes with a ScotchBrite pad. Do not use sandpaper or steel wool for cleaning anything to do with toy trains. Put a drop of oil on the commutator when you reassemble it. This reduces the motor friction as the brush friction is the primary cause of friction. After you do all of this, it should be easy to turn the loco wheels. If it isn't, you haven't lubed something. If there is dried grease on the worm gear and its mating gear, you can either remove it or leave it there. The motor oil will soften it and turn it back into grease. Grease gets hard when the oil in it evaporates leaving behind the clay. Grease is a mixture of clay and oil. 

I strongly recommend that you use 5W-20 oil only. I have used it for 60 years. I have had locos in storage for 45 years and when I ran them recently, they did not really need to be lubed. I recommend you not use grease, light machine oil, Lionel Lube, 3 in 1 oil, WD-40, or any other product unless you have long term test data on it.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The E unit may be stuck. Smack the loco on the top and see if it starts to work again. The E unit solenoid is pulled down by gravity. It is pulled up by the coil.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

joekenny said:


> Thank you so much for the quick and very informative replies. It is very much appreciated. As to the E unit, I think you might have hit on it. I was able, at the beginning, to get the engine to reverse. It did it twice and I was never able to get it to happen again. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. I guess not.
> 
> As far as the switch unit on the engine, there it none. Does that mean that I have the "revamped' version from 1947?
> 
> ...


It might just need a little repair did you look at this?
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=3040

Don't bother with Lionel for parts, there are other places to get them from.

Here is one, http://www.ttender.com/index.htm

A new e unit is not cheap, they were around $2.50 to replace back when they built the engine. Now anywhere from $35 and up.

You would be better off repairing the one you have if you can, check out the T man thread I linked here above. It might be a simple fix.
It might just need to be cleaned up a bit.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If you do not have a lever for the E unit sticking out of the top of the loco, you have a 1946 version and you should have a plug on a pigtail in the cab of the loco. See the Olsen information for details.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Guys,

An important point, I think ...

If it is the 1946 version, then I think the e-unit is a horizontal setup, not vertical. I.e., the solenoid is NOT gravity dropped, but rather relies on a spring to push it back into its "throttle down" position. Maybe the spring is partially at fault?

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, that is what the Olsen's drawings show. A good smack might free up the solenoid, but likely it will need to be cleaned.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the info on this problem. I especially like whacking it with a hammer to see if that fixes it. 

In this thread it was mentioned that removing the loco cover is simple. Are there guides somewhere in this forum as to how to remove the loco housing? Also, some of the responses mention the Olsen Library. Is there a location I can go to view the library?

Sorry for the ignorance but it's my first train. 

Thanks much,
Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's the Olsen's Train Service & Repair Information base page. It's a great resource, I'd bookmark it.  

Note that it is frequently down on weekends, apparently they host their own site and the DB server crashes regularly. I have issues with it right now, but usually after a few hours the first business day, it's back up.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Don't use a hammer to whack it. Use your hand and don't get too agressive.

The Olsen links for the 1946 version of this loco were posted already.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks guys.
I have removed the loco cover and have found the E unit.

The train setup for now is on my 3 season porch. Which means in New Hampshire, don't bother going out there in January. The temp out there runs pretty close to the outside temp so today its about 22 degrees.

I took the engine down to my workbench which is much warmer. With the loco cover off and a couple sections of track and transformer, the E unit worked. Perhaps it doesn't like the cold. 

I've cleaned it and put a drop of oil on the plunger. Its a really a work of engineering how it functions. It moves horizontally as opposed to up and down so I can assume now, its a 1946 model.

Thanks again.
Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Clean and oil all of the other moving parts while you're at it. Use GooGone with very soft toothbrush, pipe cleaners, etc. to clean. Carefully remove the brush plate holder and clean the brushes and copper armature face. Degunk and built-up grease in the gears, axles, etc. Re-lube with 5W-20 or 5W-30 motor oil ... a small drop on any moving parts.

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

*E Unit Wiring*

Hello again,
As it turns out, the E Unit needed a lot more than a warm room in order to function.

I used the video that describes how to field strip an E Unit which was extremely helpful. I did clean all of the contacts and the drum, cleaned and oiled the spring (spring is necessary since it is a horizontal version and is not gravity based). 

Unfortunately, I didn't take pictures of the wiring before dismantling the E Unit and now that has become a real problem for me. Using the diagram below from the Olsen Library, I rewired what I could but I do still have problems. I took a page from “T” on his bench testing a E Unit using wire and alligator clips. It was getting old soldering and re-soldering wires and not getting anywhere. 

With the way it is wired right now, the E Unit functions in that the arm does extend and moves the roller one cog. However, there is nothing going on in the loco. No noise whatsoever.

If you look at the pictures below there are 5 contacts at the back of the engine.

Here is how it's wired

1ST Post Leftmost (1 RED) it to coil.
2ND Post (2 RED) to the left contact on the E unit (2ND from Left on E Unit)
3RD Post (3 White) to the right contact on the E unit
4TH Post (4 Black) to roller 
5TH Post ( Black) to ground on the loco.

Does the E Unit need to sit in the engine in order for it to function?

I'm not sure what the Olsen diagram is refering to in Jack # 2 & Jack #1 and also what an “E Unit” plug may be. I attempted to include the Olsen reference however it is larger than the Forum will allow to be in included. Here is a pointer

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos\671-1.pdf


My apologies for poor use of technical terms here and the fact that I don't have more than three colors of wire. 

Thanks,
Joe


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

My 671 e-unit had a sticky plunger problem. Oiled it - still sticky. Did a squeaky clean job on the plunger - it worked. Why did it work - I don't know.

B


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

A couple of observations...

You say: "3RD Post (3 White) to the right contact on the E unit"

That's inconsistent with the wiring diagram. The 3rd post should to to the LEFT upper contact on the e-unit.

"4TH Post (4 Black) to roller" ... by that, do you mean the two-finger contact at the bottom of the e-unit? If so, I'm confused as to wire your wiring jumper PHOTO shows two leads coming off of the 2-finger contact. There should only be one, going to the 4th post on the loco, per the wiring diagram.

"5TH Post ( Black) to ground on the loco." ... NO! Per the wiring diagram, the 5th post is your center-rail power pickup. It's not the loco frame ground!

Also ... YES, the e-unit should be in the frame to function. Or, more precisely, the metal frame of the e-unit itself must be grounded electrically to the motor's ground frame and then back to your outer rail (or transformer ground, really). This e-unit ground is needed to complete the portion of the circuit that operates the e-unit solenoid.

In looking at the wiring diagram, and trying to understand what the e-unit is doing, consider this:

The e-unit drum is basically a simple redirection switch. Current flows from the center rail to the e-unit drum. From there, and depending on how the drum is positioned, it will flow out to the loco motor and pass through the armature (brush cans) from left to right (in forward direction, for example), or -- with a different drum position -- will pass through the armature (brush cans) from right to left (reverse direction, for example). The current then flows back to the e-unit, does a quick u-turn, and then gets sent back to the motor ... this time to flow through the motor's field coil (big electromagnet), and from there, through the motor's frame ground, and out to the outer rails through the drive wheels.

Hope that helps,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Joe if you are close, I would Love to look at it . We can get you up to speed real fast. Post me.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thank you TJ for a very through explanation. 

Im going to need time to digest it. Just one thing, what I was referring to as ground, it was actually the center rail pickup.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hello T,
I live in Bedford NH, just south of Manchester. If you want to take a look at this thing it would be my pleasure. Where and when, you name it. I can travel to the seacoast, no problem.
Joe


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> Joe if you are close, I would Love to look at it . We can get you up to speed real fast. Post me.





joekenny said:


> Hello T,
> I live in Bedford NH, just south of Manchester. If you want to take a look at this thing it would be my pleasure. Where and when, you name it. I can travel to the seacoast, no problem.
> Joe




SEACOAST, NEW HAMPSHIRE

AMERICA'S SMALLEST SEACOAST:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

Just so you know ...

You've been given an offer to meet with DaVinci, Michelangelo, and Einstein rolled into one ... when it comes to the artistry of train guts, at least. Bring some donuts and enjoy!

(T-Man ... very nice offer. You boys have fun!)

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The engine is a classic and worth the effort. That way I can post the info here. I will try to work it out I sent a post. Ibetter take a look at the Olsen diagram. I wonder if he can put it back together?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

SInce the e unit is removed I would test the motor, use a jumper on pin two and a brush and pin three to the other brush. Then touch two and the frame with power with the wheels off the ground. AC power that is.

THe logic is power to through number two to a brush through the armature to in three which is connected to the motor coil (it still is isn't it???) to ground on the frame. That is the circuit to run any of these motors. That coil neds to be connected to number three and connected to a ground (frame)


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

T-Man said:


> SInce the e unit is removed I would test the motor, use a jumper on pin two and a brush and pin three to the other brush. Then touch two and the frame with power with the wheels off the ground. AC power that is.
> 
> THe logic is power to through number two to a brush through the armature to in three which is connected to the motor coil (it still is isn't it???) to ground on the frame. That is the circuit to run any of these motors. That coil neds to be connected to number three and connected to a ground (frame)


T/Bob,
I have a ton of questions about what you just wrote. 

1) By "test the motor" you mean the engine motor not the E Unit?
2) By jumper on Pin 2 you mean the Pins at the back of the loco, right?
What do mean by a "brush"?
3) "Touch 2 with the power" By that do you mean power from the 
transformer or power from a track? And by ground, do you mean
the other wire from the transformer to the loco frame?
4) There is a connection from Pin 5 to the motor. The original wire that ran
from that pin to the post which supplies power from the track 
(light is also attached to that post) has beeni removed. For this
test, I take it that will not be necessary. That is with the loco off the
ground.

Sorry for the ignorance. I was a software guy all of my life.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

You need to be a bit careful with T-Man's thinking here. Physically removing the e-unit from the loco is not the same isolating it (removing it) electrically. His method will work OK only if: 1) the e-unit is not wired to the rest of the motor at all, 2) the e-unit drum is positioned in the "neutral" position, or 3) you slip a small isolating piece of paper between the fingers and the drum to temporarily sever the circuit. Be careful with the fingers.

Perhaps you're already in situation (1) ... e-unit fully unwired from the rest of the motor??? (T-Man, you may have already confirmed that ... I wasn't sure per dialog above.)

To jump in with a couple of answers above ...

Lionel trains (mostly) run on AC power ... a +/- sine wave. Despite that, we generally talk about the center rail power being the "hot" power, and the outer rail being the "ground". Technically, that's an invalid statement when discussing AC power, but the terminology is pretty common with Lionel discussions. Most Lionel motors (like yours) have the metal motor frame electrically grounded to the drive wheels. So the motor frame itself is grounded to the outer rails when the train is on the track. "Hot" power comes in through the center rail, up through the contact (or pickup) rollers, to the motor (here, the brushes / armature), and also to the e-unit solenoid.

The "brushes" are the little metal floating discs that transfer electricity into / out of the spinning armature. Each brush "floats" with some compression from a springs inside a little cylindrical "brush can".

Per T-Man's jumped wiring description (with the e-unit removed electrically from the picture), we have: hot power running into one brush can / brush, into the spinning armature, out from there to the other brush / brush can, from there to the electromagnet field coil, and from there to the grounded motor frame and out to the outer rail (or return to transformer).

Regards,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am going with the picture. It shows all the wiring removed from the e unit.


Check the motor first. The e unit is off. 

The brush islocated under the cans indicated by the red. Basically they are carbon slugs that contact a revolving armature. One reason I want to do a photo essay on it.

I may need a clearer picture of the pins, they are the oddball pieces you don't normally see. I am assuming the pins are isolated and not connected to anything except number 3. 5 is not needed if you go directly to two.










We may need another step back. The two transformer wires are interchangable at this point. If it works the motor will change direction if you switch the wires.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Guys,

I took that wired configuration and placed it on a single straight track hooked up to the transformer. When power and direction were applied the unit acted as it should. I have attached the video link to youtube to show you how it works (not that you don't know).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_wuoWt1Fck&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

"Look, Ma ... no gravity!!!"

Sweet.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

It already has 22 views! 

Only 249,978 more views and youtube will start paying me money.

Too bad I missed the Academy Award nominations.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

So far it looks clean and not broken.



This is with just the lettter id between the you tube symbols


[YT}] insert here [/YT]


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Guys,

Given the Olsen wiring diagram and the connections I have on the E Unit, just how many connections need to be made to the E Unit from the engine and also within the e Unit before the wiring is complete and can be placed back in the engine for testing?

This is an image from E Bay selling a horizontal e Unit. I count 5 wires.
Does that sound right?

Joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

With the e unit removed it is time to make the donuts. (Love that commercial)

Test the motor without out it, to keep things simple. Then again the motor parts should be inspected and cleaned before testing.

There are four connection for the drum contacts, center and side rail plus the two brushes. The side of the e unit coil has the center rail connection may have more. Like the a smoke unit and headlight There is a small wire from this that supplies the drum.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

(Edit ... posted the below as T-Man was posting his ... we're saying the same basic thing.)

There are 5 wires on that ebay e-unit, though one of the ones coming out of the top set of "contact fingers" is an input power lead that can be wired directly to the stand-alone black input power lead that you also see. I.e., one of the 5 wires is can be simply run back to the e-unit itself.

That leaves the remaining 4 wires going to the motor ...

Input power from center rail
Wire running to "in" side of motor field coil
Wiring running from "out" side of motor field coil
Wiring running to "in" brush can / armature

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

tjcruiser said:


> Joe,
> 
> Just so you know ...
> 
> ...


We met and a party. I think the staff was too busy listening to us!
Anyway the engine looks great and Joe is determined to fix it. What confused him was a missing piece in the eunit. I noticed one piece installed upside down. The armature looked ok but we could not remove it to the length of wire attached to it was short. Oh Well. I did snap two pictures.












pin 2and 4 are conected to the brushes. pin three is conected to the motor coil. Thei engine does not have a lever to turn the e unit off but a power plug that originates form pin 5. Disconnect that and and you sit in neutra,l forward or reverse. 

The e unit coil is grounded by the connection at the center, the side connection is for the power plug. I guess, but I have not seen the plug but it must attach here.

Joe is happy so expect some results soon.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Nice "power meeting", guys! Glad to hear the executives pulled it off!


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

It was a great get together. T sure knows his onions and was very willing to share those onions with me.

I did find the missing part for the E Unit and have it all back together and in position. I was very surprised to see the engine move since it hasn't done that in awhile. Im running into a problem and will be looking at it over the next couple of days.

When power is applied to the engine, the E Unit engages. So, every time I power on the loco, it goes from forward then reverse and neutral. It needs some work. 

Just a quick question. From what I understand, when the "direction" button is hit while power is on, it sends a small DC current to the e unit. What actually picks that up? 

Thanks TJ for a great explanation on how the E Unit works. I said to T that I figured you for a tech writer. 

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Actually, every time power is interrupted, the E-Unit drops out, and when power is applied again, it steps to the next position. That's the normal operation.

Each time power is interrupted, it will step. The direction button doesn't send DC, it just interrupts the power to the track. The whistle button is the control that sends DC to the track, and that's to pickup the whistle relay and blow the whistle.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Ditto on what John said re: e-unit control. The only other thing I'll add is this ...

On most Lionel e-units, normal "power on" activates a solenoid electromagnet which "sucks" the e-unit plunger up into its raised position. When power is dropped (via a throttle down, or a push of the "direction" button on the transformer", the solenoid is no longer active, and gravity drops the plunger back down. However, on a few Lionel motors (like yours, I believe), the e-unit is horizontal, and a spring (rather than gravity) is required to "lower" the plunger to its non-powered position.

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Operation is the same, but I agree, that one is a bit different in mechanical operation.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

FYI, the whistle relay has a copper slug in it which makes it a "slow" slow relay. That means it will not respond to 60 Hz but will respond to DC and also 25 Hz. Years ago, some of the US ran on 25 Hz power. The whistle would be on all the time if the transformer was powered by 25 Hz power.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It's good to have the e unit cycle and the engine running, Now run the engine. You want smooth starts, no intermittent power disruptions that will cycle the eunit , Or any signs of excessive hat to the motor or track. As I mentioned before all this extra running will help clean up connections and will require another cleaning. The wheel sparks wil dissappear too.

If we do it again I suggest that you get a list of all the numbers from the cars and accessories and I will bring the books from the pre and post war eras. I use Doyle's books. These are the catalogs with great pictures not the small price guides, they are on amazon too if you want to get a copy. The catalogs do have prices on god and excellant conditions. THey make a great drool book too!!!!!!!! 

Onions? Is there a story about the Onion Man?

It was very nice to actually talk about trains and not have to type every word out.
I was excited about the meet and I am sure we can do it again.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thank you both for your replies. 

So if the spring acts as gravity then all locomotives be they horizontal or gravity, react the same way. Each time the power is cut, it will move the roller and when power is restored, the engine is in a different state and the arm returns to the next cog on the roller. Is that correct? 

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Correct, you have mastered the mechanical E-Unit! 

Technically, the roller moves when power is applied and the pawl rotates the drum. 

The pawl ratchets to the back of the tooth when power is removed in preparation for the next power on.

However, the effect you describe is still the same, each power cycle puts the locomotive in a different directional state.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks again guys.

Knowing your onions is an old expression meaning that you know your trade. I believe that's what it means. It is quite a compliment from where I come from.

So, in 1946 they had no switch on the E Unit. So every time you powered up, you were in a different state/direction. The following year, during the redesign, they added a switch located on top of the loco. I take it that this merely turned the E Unit on and off. When you always wanted to go forward all the time, you would switch the E Unit off.

I think I would prefer the switch. I would imagine that the switch would just cuts power to the E Unit. Is that right? 

Did the horizonal E Unit ever have a switch or did that become vogue with the addition of the gravity E Unit. 

By the way T, I cleaned the motor, cans, rotor and boy, does that thing fly now. Thanks again for the tips.

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The switch (if present) just turns off the power to the E-Unit coil, you are correct. I don't personally know if the horizontal E-unit engines ever had a cutoff, I never owned one of those.

You do know that it would be easy to add a cutoff switch and hide it somewhere on the bottom. You just have to route the coil power through that switch, job done.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Good dialog above. Nothing to add on my part, other than to say, "I concur!" You all took the words right out of my mouth! For once, I'm speechless!

But then again ... why am I writing this post?!? Uhh ... err ... ahh ...

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That's good that it is running well, what's next?


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hello again,
Thanks for the help/encouragement and best wishes however, I may have been a bit optimistic in my first evaluation of the E Unit.

I place the engine exposed on a single piece of track. I apply power and the engine moves forward (like a bat out of hell). Power off, then on and it's in neutral. So far so good. Power off, then on and the main gear from the engine starts to move back a single cog but that's it. Power off, neutral, power off again and Im back to forward.

I applied a volt meter to pins 5 and 3. It shows full voltage while in forward. It shows 0 voltage while in neutral which I assume is correct. When in the reverse position I don't see power to the pins at all. 

After that, I looked at the transformer and the green light is blinking. I understand that to be a short.

So, whenever something weird happens I always ask what was the last thing I did and how could this have screwed this up. The answer is that I disassembled the engine and cleaned the cans, springs armature. I put it back together and I am now in this situation. Note that I had done this cleaning before installing the "finished" version of the e unit.

I tried disengaging the prawl and moving the roller by hand to the next position. No difference.

It doesn't make sense that in forward its fine but reverse causes a short.

Once again I ask... Any ideas?

Thanks much,
Joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

WIth no reverse you lost a finger contact. It is not touching the drum. A short could be a bad solder between the finger contact. Be carefull of a rod jam you are missing a nut and they need to turn together. You may try it without that side rod. Just an idea. I hope you installed the finger boards correctly??????? The round side toward the drum.

It doesn't work at all now?????


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

I really didn't want to take that thing apart again. With regard to your question, yes the finger contacts are positioned with the round side up on the roller. Which reminds me of a joke.

A real estate guy is walking this woman through a new house. Every two minutes during the tour he yells out the window "green side up". After about the 5th time the woman asks why he is yelling that out the window. He says that he has a new crew of Irishmen laying sod outside and he has to keep reminding them how to place the sod.

I'm Irish and yes, both round side and green side are up.

If the finger isn't touching would that generate a short? If the short is in the solder joint wouldn't forward and reverse not work?

Thanks T and I'll take a look. Appreciate the quick reply.

Joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The short is on the ground side. SO all is fine until you reverse and it goes +

check the wires first two may be switched and make sure the light and smoke wires are not shorting out or you hve a screwdriver on the track.

Try running without the shell. You worked every wire in it so check them all. use the meter to look for a short between the finger contacts. Yoy msy not see it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hmmm ...

I agree with T-Man here ... I'd be suspicous of one of the little contact fingers. Sometimes, these can be bent or mis-shaped such that they touch the wrong part of the copper contact surface embedded in the drum itself. If this happens, you won't complete the reverse circuit properly, and you could jump the flow of current to cause a short.

Because forward works OK, I would rule out problem with the two outer-most fingers on the upper finger plate. The problem is likely with the middle two fingers on the upper, or one of the two fingers on the bottom plate.

With the loco shell removed (i.e., motor, only), you can pull the e-unit away from the motor a bit (though make sure it's casing is still electrically grounded to the motor frame). Carefully use a toothpick to poke/prod the middle contact fingers as you cycle through the e-unit positions. You may find that poking/prodding one of the fingers just a certain way reveals what/how it's making bad contact.

One other thing to remember with e-units. With a full turn of the e-unit drum, you go through TWO rounds of direction: f-n-r-n-f-n-r-n

If in a full turn (i.e., 8 e-unit /throttle cycles), you see that one forward is working but the other is not (or ditto for reverse), then the problem lies with how one of the middle fingers touches the copper on the drum. There's barely enough pressure to make contact with one copper "ear" on the drum, but not quite enough pressure to make contact with its mate "ear" on the other side. I gentle poke/bend with a toothpick will usually fix this problem.

Regards,

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks T & TJ

T, I did the tests that you suggested. First I ran through all 8 cycles that are possible between the fingers and the roller.

f-n-r-n-f-n-r-n


The r positions always short. The remaining 6 appear to work just fine.

The fingers (both upper 2 and lower 4) appear to be touching the roller properly (rounded side toward the roller). I did use the toothpick suggestion applying a small amount of pressure to each of the lower fingers. I also moved the fingers a bit to the left and right to make sure they were making clean contact with the roller.

The fact that 6 out of the 8 combinations work fine, I really don't believe that it has anything to do with the fingers/rollers contacts.


"T"
You suggested that the short may be that the two wires connecting the lower rollers might be generating the short.

First I removed the two wires which are connected to the lower fingers. I did a continuity test between the two ports on the board. They did not display any short which would result if the solder ran between the two (Meter indicated (1.). I reattached the wires and ran through the cycle with the same result.

I also swapped the power wires to the pins (Pins 2&4) knowing that this would probably not make a difference and it didn't.

So far, my soldering skills are improving but not much else 

Thanks for the help.

Joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Did the motor run in reverse without the e unit? When you tested the motor.
The torque of going forward moves the armature forward, in reverse it pushes toward the rear. Are all the pieces in correctly?
From looking at that motor those springs need to be strong enough t keep the brushes exposed. if not the cans will touch and jam the motor.

Pull the rods off too.

The only time an ac motor does not go in reverse is when you use a dc transformer. You never told me what you used.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

TJ
Thanks. I too don't believe that it has nothing to do with the E Unit anymore. I believe there is a post in here from either you or "T" as to how to get the motor to run in reverse without the E Unit. I'll check that out.

When disassembling the motor and cleaning it, the springs did look strong but then again, Im not just sure what weak would look like. 

Some terminology 

I cleaned the cans (little can like objects held in place with springs)
I cleaned the rotor (copper like surface on motor which cans press upon)
Cleaned outer circle of motor (black surface circling the copper surface)
Insured that the cans were properly in place when reassembling motor.

I think you might be on to something here TJ. I did mention in a previous post that the motor did engage in reverse (moved the gear one click back) them shorting out.

I'll look for that post on testing the motor withuout using the E Unit.

Much thanks,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

TJ
In answer to your question as to AC or DC it is AC and the transformer is a Lionel CW-80

I found "T"s post on testing the engine. I know that I tried this and nothing happened. No power appeared to going to the motor at all. My take on it is that I screwed up and will try again. My apologies "T", I know that you ran through this when we were at McDonalds and I may have nodded my head as in understanding but it may have just been the coffee.

Here is "T"s original post.

"SInce the e unit is removed I would test the motor, use a jumper on pin two and a brush and pin three to the other brush. Then touch two and the frame with power with the wheels off the ground. AC power that is.

THe logic is power to through number two to a brush through the armature to in three which is connected to the motor coil (it still is isn't it???) to ground on the frame. That is the circuit to run any of these motors. That coil neds to be connected to number three and connected to a ground (frame)"

I will remove all wiring for the E Unit.

1) Place a jumper on pin 2 (got that)

2)"and a brush and pin three to the other brush"

by "brush" I take it that this means the copper cooling bolts extending from the rear of the loco (these house the spring and cans correct?).

So, this would result in a jumper from pin 2 connecting to either if the copper cooling bolts. and pin 3 would jump to the other "cooling bolt".

Stop me when Im wrong...

Then wire the transformer so that the positive runs to pin 2 and the ground runs to the ground on the loco.

Still right?

Then swap the brush wires and the motor should swap direction

Right?

Thanks for the patients boys (insert appropriate smiley face here)

Joe


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The switch (if present) just turns off the power to the E-Unit coil, you are correct. I don't personally know if the horizontal E-unit engines ever had a cutoff, I never owned one of those.
> 
> You do know that it would be easy to add a cutoff switch and hide it somewhere on the bottom. You just have to route the coil power through that switch, job done.


There is a cut off on the horizontal e unit versions, it's a small plug on a wire that is inserted into one of the posts on the engine, one post engages the e unit the other just holds the plug. I just rebuilt one of these.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

If the e-unit drum is cylcing through its 8 positions, and you have the motor running in forward, that tells me that you likely do NOT have a short in the wiring. The wiring between the e-unit, armature, field coil, etc. is all the same, regardless of whether the motor is running in forward or reverse. The only difference between forward and reverse is the "route" that electricity takes through the armature (in this case), as dicated by the e-unit. Given that forward works, but reverse doesn't, I still strongly suspect that the problem lies somewhere with the contact fingers of the e-unit, or the e-unit drum itself. Something is touching OK (electrically) in there for forward, but not touching OK (or shorting over) in reverse.

Important question, echoing T-Man's comment above ... are you able to get the motor to run in both forward and reverse (via jumper leads) with the e-unit removed from the picture? If the answer to that is Yes, then that rules out other potential problems:

-- a brush properly touching the armature with forward spin, but not touching with reverse spin

-- some mechanical high-friction problem with a gear and/or a drive rod in reverse spin

Do the wheels / gears spin freely in your hand in both directions?

My bet here is still on the e-unit ...

By "brush", we mean the little solid cylindral disc that floats (via a spring) in each brush can ... there are 2 brushes, and 2 cans ... the end surface each brush touches the copper "commutator" face of the spinning "armature", and serve as a path to direct electricity into and out of the spinning armature. Typically, brush cans will have a small solder lug or screw terminal attached to their outer face. The brushes, springs, cans, lugs are all metal, so their all a "common contact" electrically. You can attached a jumper lead to the can, or to the lug, or to the terminal screw ... it's all the same electrically.

With the e-unit removed ... 
Once you have jumpers wired to run the motor in forward, all you have to do to run the motor in reverse is flip-flop the jumpers leads going to the two brush cans. That will flip-flop the patch of electricty in the spinning armature, and reverse the direction of the motor.

Regards,

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

All you do is install the jumper from 4 to 3. Touch pin 2 and the frame. Then switch wires, (Use the frame wire on pin 2)
That should operate the motor.

You could check every two wire connection the drum makes, On the frame ans center roller sides. Use resistance reading on the meter and see the low ohms for a good connection. Neutral would be 10 m . 

If you get frustrated we could meet again.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi TJ and"T"

TJ
I think the first question that needs to be answered is "does the engine work forward and reverse?" I have not been able to answer that question because I am unable to simulate what yourself and T have posted.

Here is what I have tried from the information that you have given me.

1) Completly remove the E Unit

2)Attach alligator clip to pin 2. Other end of clip is connected to either brush.

3)Attach another clip to pin 3 and the other remaining brush.

4)Attach one wire from the transformer to pin 2 as well.

5) Touch 2nd wire from transformer to the ground stake on the loco.

When I do this, I get a short. If you do reply, please tell me what Im doing wrong in these 4 steps please? If Im not even close, then let me know that as well.

Thanks,
Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

In reviewing this thread, one thing I just noticed via your e-unit test video is that you have the bottom 2-finger contacts in the e-unit installed backwards. The "knuckles" of the little cupped finger ends need to point into the e-unit drum, not away from it. What you have in the video is the wrong way ...






Has that since been fixed?

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

These might help to test the motor without the e-unit attached ...


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Joe,
> 
> In reviewing this thread, one thing I just noticed via your e-unit test video is that you have the bottom 2-finger contacts in the e-unit installed backwards. The "knuckles" of the little cupped finger ends need to point into the e-unit drum, not away from it. What you have in the video is the wrong way ...
> 
> ...


Yes, that has been fixed awhile. That video doesn't have the bottom fingers attached and that too has been fixed. Very Observant.

Thanks,
Joe


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

FYI ... a nomenclature comment ...

You have the "odd" horizontal e-unit, so there's really no "bottom" or "top". However, to follow the proper nomenclature of the conventional (gravity based) Lionel e-unit, it's the TOP plate that has 4 fingers, and the BOTTOM plate that has 2 fingers.

"Bottom" is to the LEFT in your video orientation.

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks TJ.
I do want to get the nomenclature correct. In that video, the four finger which runs to the engine is missing. I did correct that as well.
Joe


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I've read this post in an effort to learn something myself, but the comments are a little troubling:


"I place the engine exposed on a single piece of track. I apply power and the engine moves forward (like a bat out of hell). Power off, then on and it's in neutral. So far so good. Power off, then on and the main gear from the engine starts to move back a single cog but that's it. Power off, neutral, power off again and Im back to forward."


If the motor turned in reverse for one cog, then it sounds like the e unit is supplying power.

I had a similar problem with a different type of motor. It ran fine in forward but just one cog in reverse.

As it turns out, there was a thrust bearing missing. The way I discovered the problem was this, I put a toothpick in the hole in the armature plate as the motor was trying to reverse. The toothpick was pushed out by the excessive play in the armature. The excessive play resulted in the armature jamming against the brush plate. As I resisted, the motor would run in reverse as long as I held tight.

In the Olsen reference they mention thrust bearings and washers.

Could the washers be the problem? By the diagram, It looks like you could push a non metal object, like a toothpick, into the hole.

Just a thought.

Good luck.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Dave, I think you may be on to something. If the motor is stalled due to a mechanical problem, it will likely trip the overload protector in the transformer.

With the power off, if the loco is pushed in either direction, the motor should turn. If it doesn't, then likely there is a mechanical problem.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Dave and Servoguy.

Dave,
Thats great input and what Im trying to do now is to take the E Unit out of the equation and insure that the engine will go in reverse. If it won't then the E Unit can be eliminated and I would be a happy man at this point. If it fails without the E Unit attached I will try your toothpick trick. 

Servoguy
I can move the wheels both forward and backward with my hand. The resistance in both directions is about the same. Would that not be the case if the problem were to be a thrust bearing?

Right now if the problem were anything but the E Unit, I would be a happy man. 

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nope, the thrust bearing would come into play when the motor was providing the power, it might not show up just moving the wheels. You really need to try the motor in both directions under power.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Dave, I think you may be on to something. If the motor is stalled due to a mechanical problem, it will likely trip the overload protector in the transformer.
> 
> With the power off, if the loco is pushed in either direction, the motor should turn. If it doesn't, then likely there is a mechanical problem.


If the shaft of the motor is parallel with the track, then isn't there a spiral cut gear at the end of the shaft?

If so, the wheels should not turn without power, correct? 

Am I missing something?

My 600 series and MPC motors can't be turned by the wheels due to the cut of the gears.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Dave, you are missing something. All of the Lionel worm drive locos that I have allow the wheels to back drive the motors. The wheels of my 736 will rotate if I merely push the loco on the track without adding any down force. If you have a 736 that won't do this, something is wrong with it. What you are missing is that the worms on the Lionel motors have 3 leads, and so they can be back driven. A worm drive with a single lead generally cannot be back driven.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

How far can you move the wheels backwards ? Half a revolution, a full revolution ? 

To isolate the e-unit from drive problems, remove the motor from the frame, hold motor in your hand with the motor grounded to frame with a wire and banana clips and apply power, the gear on motor should spin in both forward and reverse if e-unit functions correctly. If so a drive problem.

If your 671 is the smoke bulb type, the left front drive wheel has a small pin projecting out of the inside of the wheel. If the smoke unit's parts that make the puffs are installed incorrectly the pin on the wheel will be blocked and not allow the wheel to make a full revolution. It seems the you do not have a problem in forward so this may not be the cause of no reverse. 

Again with the smoke bulb version only the dual worm drive shaft has two ends bearings. The bearings are not identical and if remove must be replaced correctly.

My thoughts on the problems.

B


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

joekenny said:


> Hi TJ and"T"
> 
> TJ
> I think the first question that needs to be answered is "does the engine work forward and reverse?" I have not been able to answer that question because I am unable to simulate what yourself and T have posted.
> ...


SO that it is clear , pin 2 and 4 are brush connections 3 is the coil and ground. If you follow TJ's diagram. Skip step 2 and step three pin 3 to pin 4. to correct your sequence. I am to blame for bum info on this earlier. This motor is a first for me.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks to all who made suggestions.

"T" and TJ
I was able to remove the e unit and power it through the pins. The result is that the engine moves fine forward and shorts out when in reverse. So at this point, I guess we can eliminate the E Unit.

I plan to pull the pack off the engine and inspect the cans. TJ, I believe you thought that the short might be the result of the cans working ok forward but, if the springs were not strong, they could touch each other when in reverse and cause the short. Is there a way you can tell when the motor is exposed?

Thanks guys,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

inxy said:


> How far can you move the wheels backwards ? Half a revolution, a full revolution ?
> 
> To isolate the e-unit from drive problems, remove the motor from the frame, hold motor in your hand with the motor grounded to frame with a wire and banana clips and apply power, the gear on motor should spin in both forward and reverse if e-unit functions correctly. If so a drive problem.
> 
> ...


Thanks B. Just read your note. Great idea. With the motor out of the loco and just grounded to the frame, the engine moved forward and shorted out in reverse. 

I will now check the cans. THanks again.
Joe


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Hey guys, sorry to but in, but their is something I noticed re reading this thread last night. I have the same model. I noticed you e-unit is different than mine. Would this matter? As you can see the black piece of plastic is mounted on the bottom on mine and is on the top of Joes's. Would this make a difference in how it operates? Just a thought. Here is my flickr link with the images.

Flickr Images


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

Elimination of problem possibilities is progress ... you're narrowing things down, and that's good.

Do pay good heed to what Dave and Bruce (servoguy) were discussing above about the thrust bearings and the like along the armature shaft. It is possible that if there's too much axial "slop" in the armature shaft, then torque from one direction (say reverse) would induce axial force that could actually push the armature face away from the brushes. You'd loose electrical contact at the brush/commutator (armature face) interface, and the motor wouldn't run.

How much axial play do you have on your armature shaft? Greenbergs says this should be no more than 0.010", and if it is bigger than that, than extra spacer washers should be used to tighten the play.

As for the brush springs, I suggest you do this ...

Remove the brushplate assembly (the piece with the two brush cans). With the springs and brushes in place in the cans, look at the exposed ends of the brushes ... they should stick "out" maybe 1/16" or so, but should be easily pushed back in (via spring compression) with a finger or toothpick. In other words, you want the springs to push the brushed outward enough to induce good contact between the brush face and the armature face, but not so much outward push that the assembly would bind.

Maybe your brushes are worn down too much, and/or your springs don't have enough "push"?

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

NorCalTransplant said:


> Hey guys, sorry to but in, but their is something I noticed re reading this thread last night. I have the same model. I noticed you e-unit is different than mine. Would this matter? As you can see the black piece of plastic is mounted on the bottom on mine and is on the top of Joes's. Would this make a difference in how it operates? Just a thought. Here is my flickr link with the images.
> 
> Flickr Images


No, yours is correct, mine was on upside down. It's fixed now. No need to worry about yours. Thanks,
Joe


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh i knew mine was right just thought it would help you trouble shoot


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

NorCalTransplant said:


> Oh i knew mine was right just thought it would help you trouble shoot


Good observation. Anything at this point helps. THanks,
Joe


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Since the short exits with the motor off the frame that eliminates drive problems.

Maybe frayed wire between e-unit and engine making contact somewhere it should not or there are two wires that exit at the rear base of the e-unit and one of the wires or solder maybe touching the engine frame. Others here are better than me on e-units. I am looking where a bare wire may ground itself out. Guess work really on my part.

B


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

The same wiring is used when the engine goes forward and reverse, so the wiring has to be OK.

I believe this loco has a spur gear on the end which engages another spur gear on the drive shaft that actually drives the wheels. Therefore, it is unlikely that the armature is moving fore and/or aft and rubbing something when in reverse.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

inxy said:


> Since the short exits with the motor off the frame that eliminates drive problems.
> 
> Maybe frayed wire between e-unit and engine making contact somewhere it should not or there are two wires that exit at the rear base of the e-unit and one of the wires or solder maybe touching the engine frame. Others here are better than me on e-units. I am looking where a bare wire may ground itself out. Guess work really on my part.
> 
> B


Hi Bruce
The motor is off the loco and the E Unit is fully disconnected. I put the E Unit in another room just to be sure 

The motor will run forward and short out in reverse using just the pin connections and current to run the motor. You're right, its not a problem with the drive but appears to be a problem within the motor itself.

I did try the toothpick trick by trying to move the armature pinon while in reverse and this didn't help the situation. There appears to be no play in the armature. Without measurements, it does appear to move within spec.

Could it be either the front or rear bearing on the armature? Would a resonable test be to remove the armature housing and attempt to run the motor that way? If it were the bearings, would that not effect both forward and reverse?

Thanks for the input B. By the way, did you say in a previous post that you have this 1946 engine? If so, I would like to better understand how the pin on the e unit is wired? Currently I have a wire running from pin 5 to the E Unit coil (actually to the post were the light and smoke pick up current).

Does the pin allow you to disconnect the E unit from the back of the loco without removing the loco cover?

Joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

WHen I trouble shoot I go back again and again to technical information. You have to understand what is going on. To start, I would review the Olsen pages. The answer to the pin Jack is there.
Did you ever add oil to the shaft through the hole? I wonder how free the armature spins? Is the reverse a mechanical or electrical problem. Above all observe,observe, observe. On my horizontal motor reverse did not work when it was missing a thrust bearing and the motor armature shifted beyond the field on the 2333 motor and jammed .If the field moves in relation to the motor base, it shouldn't that would also jam the armature.

I never did look at the worm drive.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

I'll look at it later this AM. Have a doctors appointment. Same engine as yours now disassembled to follow this thread. 

For reference see: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos\671-2.pdf shows the motor and a cut away side view of the motor and internals.

B


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe -- did you look at the brushes and springs, to make sure that the springs are pushing the brushes "out" with enough force into the commutator (armature face)?


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> Joe -- did you look at the brushes and springs, to make sure that the springs are pushing the brushes "out" with enough force into the commutator (armature face)?


Yes I did TJ, there is a little "Peek hole" that allows you to see the brushes up against the plate. I spin the pinion in both directions and the brushes look to be fine. Granted this is done by hand and not under power which may have a different result. 
Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the motor shorts when running backwards, it's not the brushes I would think.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, About all I can come up with is a small piece of metal caught somewhere that makes the motor act like a rachet. The shorting you observe may be nothing more than the transformer providing too much current because the motor is not turning.

Can you turn the motor by hand freely in both directions? Can you turn the motor freely in both directions by turning the wheels?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If the motor shorts when running backwards, it's not the brushes I would think.


My only thought (grasping at straws, really) was that torque on the motor in reverse (via the worm gear) would be such that it pulls the armature away from the brushplate just enough to open a gap.

Not very likely, though .. .and it sounds like Joe has now ruled that out.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, can you remove the motor from the loco frame and see if it runs by itself. This might indicate a problem with the gearing in the motor frame.


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

It sounds like it might be too much play somewhere.

Perhaps there is an axle or bushing that is worn and is causing a gear to bind up.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

servoguy said:


> Joe, can you remove the motor from the loco frame and see if it runs by itself. This might indicate a problem with the gearing in the motor frame.


Bruce, Back in post #86 (?) Joe removed the motor from the frame and had the same problems. Looking at the wiring diagrams in tj's post #65 whether in forward or reverse you are using the same wires but different direction of current flow. So I would eliminate wiring which leaves us with brushes, and motor bearings (front, back and thrust). Looking at the brush plate assembly the tension/pressure in the brushes can be adjusted by two spring loaded screws - too much/too little. If run in forward I don't see (?) a brush problem. Looking at the armature you have a long shaft with a thrust bearing, rear bearing, then about an inch of shaft and then a front bearing. It is possible with worn bearing that in running on one direction everything works right but in the other there is enough wear/play in the bearings that the shaft and thereby the armature tilts to rub/jamb instead of rotate. 

In regards to another post of maybe something dropped into the motor and is jamming it. With the shell on the top of the motor is well protected. The underside of the motor is exposed thru the frame and one would have to turn the engine upside down and drop an object thru the rear truck to get it into the motor. Not likely.

My three cents here. We all are past the two cents stage.

B (the other Bruce)


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Joe, Possible for bad bearings to work in one direction and not the other.

Not sure what pin 5 is but the below pictures will show a solder lug located next the e-unit mounting plate The e-unit is removed and hanging on the side of the frame. The base portion of the solder lug goes to the pickup rollers. Three wires come off the lug. First pic you can see the wire going going to the smoke unit bulb. The second pic is the opposite side of the lug with one wire to the e-unit and the other wire to the brush plate assembly. The e-unit wire goes to the far left of rear of the e-unit. The wire to the brush plate assembly goes to the jack on the far right of the brush plate assy. Left and right being looking forward if sitting the cab.



















Rereading your post "Does the pin allow you to disconnect the E unit from the back of the loco without removing the loco cover?" Yes, when you plug the plug into the jack you disconnect the e-unit and the engine will go f - n or r depending upon the last position of the e-unit before you moved the plug. A little bit wordy here but I think you get the idea.

B


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Is it not possible it could be the wires themselves? Why not run new leads. I did on mine and I think it made a difference in how it runs.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I don't think the leads are causing an apparent short in one direction, the same leads are using forward and backwards.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, I don't think the leads are causing an apparent short in one direction, the same leads are using forward and backwards.


These leads to the pins are just alligator clips solderd to two ends of a wire.

TJ 
I did look at the brushes and the brush plate through the "peep hole" that I mentioned earlier. With power on, the brushes and brush plate look the same in both forward and reverse except that it shorts in reverse. I don't believe its either the brushes or springs.

To answer your other question, the pinion gear moves just fine in both directions without power being applied. When I apply power in reverse, it becomes difficult to move the gear. Almost like it's locked up. 

"T"
I can't believe that I missed this but there is a plug that is mentioned in the Olsen diagram running to the 5th pin. I moved it to the first pin and no difference. Same thing when it is completly unplugged.

Would pictures help? Im going to open up the armature housing that leads to the pinon gear. THis will let me see what the bearings look like but I don't believe it could be them since if that was the case, it should fail in both directions.

Just one more thing... 
Way back when "in January" before problems began happening, the engine did run in reverse. Granted it was only once or twice. 

Joe


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

To be clear I didn't mean the leads. I meant re wire the train.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

NorCalTransplant said:


> To be clear I didn't mean the leads. I meant re wire the train.


I think the mission right now is to find out why the motor only runs in one direction. I really don't think this is electrical.


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

Just figured since it seems like you guys have tried everything else.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure if they've tried _everything_ else, but they're working on it.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Joe is eager to figure this out. 

I found the disc drive pin comment interesting since I did not notice it.
ALso his field coil was sloppy. At one time I think the outer layer had unraveled. The main thing is spring tension. I have seen some bad springs.
The coil wire was still soldered on so I could not remove the brush bracket.
So the mystery continues.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Since the problem is in the motor, I am wondering if one of the bearings is worn enough that the armature is contacting the field. This will lock up the motor in a heartbeat. Joe, look for any witness marks on the armature. Remember that the motor may not have a short, but that the transformer is tripping due to high current which occurs when the motor is not running. Also, try putting the motor in reverse and moving the armature by turning the gear. If it tries to move, you probably have a problem with the armature touching the field and not a short. In fact, it may run if you get it started.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It may also run if you hold it in a different orientation if the armature is hitting the field.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks guys for all your time and effort in trying to resolve this problem.

I have taken pictures of the motor apart with the hope that something might jump out at you. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here is about 8 thousand.

Picture 1
Back end of motor. Ground from pinon to loco ground and ground from transformer. Touch pin 2, engine runs fine forward. Touch pin 4, short.

Picture 2
Coil. "T" seems to think this may have unraveled at some point. That didn't happen on my watch and loco has not had power applied to it since 1991. I don't believe that any work occured on it at that time.

Pic 3 and Pic 4

Armature assembly. Very little play in this gear. I can close the gap by hand and it springs back to current position. Pic 4 I was trying to show the size of the gap. 

Pic 5
Armature removed. Upside down view of rear housing of loco with springs and brushes.

Pic 6 
The communicator. It was cleaner than that but since I've been running it, it looks a little dirty.

Pic 7
Brushes and springs. Springs appear to be lively and seen to hold the brushes in place. I don't have the video posted since its a real pain to upload to youtube but, looking at the brushes while the engine is running forward. The left brush does make small sparks while engaged and the right brush does show a spark once in a while. In reverse, nothing happens.

Thanks,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> It may also run if you hold it in a different orientation if the armature is hitting the field.


I've tried that. Level, pinon up, pinon left, down and right.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Time to take it back to T-Man.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, I think you are confused about how to wire the motor. You cannot make it reverse by moving only one wire. Make a diagram of how the motor is wired, and post it and we will be able to sort out your problem very quickly.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Counting terminals from left to right, here is what the Olsen's http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/671-1.pdf shows:

Pin 1 goes to the E unit and is not involved in motor operation
Pin 2 goes to a brush
Pin 3 goes to the field
Pin 4 goes to the other brush
Pin 5 goes to the pickup rollers.

To make the motor run in one direction, connect power (center rail) to pin 4 and connect pin 3 to pin 2 and connect a jumper to the motor frame to ground (outer rail).

To reverse the direction of the motor, reverse pins 2 & 4. Power to pin 2 and pin 4 and pin 3 connected together.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Servoguy. (That sounds odd).

I tried a bunch of different wiring when trying to get this to run forward and reverse. I found the following to be the easiest which also allowed me to move the motor without a lot of the clips falling off.

Here it is.

Five pins on the back of the motor.

Pins 2 and 4 go to the brushes.

Ground the motor using a clip from the pinon housing over to the loco ground.
Ground the transformer wire using the same clip which grounds the motor.

Using the positive wire from the transformer, touch pin 2 and the motor spins forward.

Using the positive wire from the transformer, touch pin 4 and motor shorts.
Since I've never seen reverse work you might be onto something.

Im not good at diagrams but I hope that paints the picture.

Thanks,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

servoguy said:


> Counting terminals from left to right, here is what the Olsen's http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos/671-1.pdf shows:
> 
> Pin 1 goes to the E unit and is not involved in motor operation
> Pin 2 goes to a brush
> ...


Ok, Im off to give that a try. Thanks,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Perhaps this is not wired correctly so I've included a picture.

Using this config, the transformer shorts out.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, the picture doesn't help much because we can't see where the wires go. Give us a list of what is connected to what. Number the pins 1-5 left to right.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, in order to understand a circuit drawing, use my approach: Stare at the drawing until you understand it. I am not joking. It works.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Does the motor run wired as shown in the picture?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Repeated here, for clarity ...



tjcruiser said:


> These might help to test the motor without the e-unit attached ...


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Yup, that should work just fine.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I did have one other crazy thought as to what may be wrong ...

The armature has 3 "stems", each with its own electromagnet windings. As the armature turns, each of these gets "activated" in sequential turn (via power through the brushes and commutator). With any one "stem" activated, it creates a magnetic field that is opposed by the fixed magnetic field of the field coil. A "push force" is generated, which turns the armature a bit, until the next stem gets activated, and the process is repeated. Hence, full rotation ... a basic electrical motor.

However ... is it possible that the wiring in one "stem" is faulty? Could it be that the armature is "running on only two pistons", so to speak, and that as such, there's just enough "push" to have the armature rotate in the forward direction, but not enough "push" (or the proper pulsing of pushes) to have the armature rotate in the reverse direction?

Just tossing out a theory here ... any thoughts???

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, since the motor runs in one direction, it is very likely that the armature wiring is OK.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Pic #3 and#4 showing the gear and end of motor housing. There is a big gap (wire inserted) between the end of housing and the gear. . On my 671 the gap is the thickness of my index finger nail. Total play is about 1/32 inch. Possibly the bottom of the armature is rubbing against the motor housing. Look for wear marks (scratching, bright shinny metal) on both items. Between the bottom of the armature and the housing should be a thrust washer. Is there a washer there ? No washer, the bottom of the armature will rub on the housing - a no no, causing friction/ drag on the spinning armature.

B


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

servoguy said:


> Yup, that should work just fine.


The first picture shown is how I had it wired (with the power on pin 4) this direction is reverse since it shorts the motor.

The second picture from TJ moves the power to pin 2. This is the forward direction and works fine. 

Works the same as the one wire swap that I was doing described in a recent post.

Thanks,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

inxy said:


> Pic #3 and#4 showing the gear and end of motor housing. There is a big gap (wire inserted) between the end of housing and the gear. . On my 671 the gap is the thickness of my index finger nail. Total play is about 1/32 inch. Possibly the bottom of the armature is rubbing against the motor housing. Look for wear marks (scratching, bright shinny metal) on both items. Between the bottom of the armature and the housing should be a thrust washer. Is there a washer there ? No washer, the bottom of the armature will rub on the housing - a no no, causing friction/ drag on the spinning armature.
> 
> B


B,
That piece wire is extremely thin. 
since I haven't done a tune up on a car since fuel injection came about, I no longer have a feeler gauge. However, when using a ruler, it is a hair short of 1/32 and a great deal tighter than 1/16th.

I don't know how to remove the armature from the housing. Is there a trick?

Thanks,
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

tjcruiser said:


> I did have one other crazy thought as to what may be wrong ...
> 
> The armature has 3 "stems", each with its own electromagnet windings. As the armature turns, each of these gets "activated" in sequential turn (via power through the brushes and commutator). With any one "stem" activated, it creates a magnetic field that is opposed by the fixed magnetic field of the field coil. A "push force" is generated, which turns the armature a bit, until the next stem gets activated, and the process is repeated. Hence, full rotation ... a basic electrical motor.
> 
> ...


TJ
Can i use a volt meter to test each of the stems? Measure resistance perhaps?
Joe


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, you cannot get the motor to reverse by moving only one wire. You have to interchange the wires that connect to the brushes.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Joe,

Per Servoguy's comment ... he's right ... you need to move the BLUE jumper wire in my diagrams, too!

In regards to my "firing on only two pistons" theory (a longshot, I suspect), you can check the wiring integrity of the armature. With the armature removed, and any metal portions touching nothing else metalic/electrical, put a pair of multimeter leads to each permutation of "two segments" of the copper armature face. You should see finite resistance with a choice of any two segments ... A-B, B-C, C-A, for example.

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, If there were an open winding on one of the armature poles, the motor wouldn't run at all. Ditto a short to the core.

When testing the armature, the resistance between any two commutator segments should be the same with in a few tenths of an ohm.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

I did want to check the armature and the
Bearings inside. I know that either the gear
end or comunicator end needs come. Either
of you now which and how it comes off?

Joe


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, I think it is a bad idea to disassemble the motor.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe,
I am convinced that if you wire the motor correctly, it will run both directions.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I was kind of thinking the same thing. You'd have to remove (pull) the gear that's at the end of the shaft (along with a retaining ring, I think) to be able to withdraw the armature shaft from the cast housing. Risky for the gear, and reinstalling a gear is not so easily done.

Bruce -- not to question your knowledge above, but why wouldn't a motor run (albeit in a jerky manner) with just 2 of 3 armature segments functional? If the "push" from the field coil was oriented just right, I'd think some spinning motion would be possible, particularly if the motor had an initial (starting) spinning momentum.

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

servoguy said:


> Joe,
> I am convinced that if you wire the motor correctly, it will run both directions.


I wired the motor as defined in the diagrams that I believe "T" or TJ sent. Again,
it doesn't run in reverse. When all was wired correctly with the E Unit it didn't run in reverse either. Always the same short.

Did any of the pictures that I put in a post this morning help explain anything?

If you both feel that removing the rear of the pinon gear is a bad idea, how would I be able to inspect either the front or rear bearings?

If anyone of you use "SKYPE", I can show you how the motor is wired and when it fails. If not skype, I could post a video. Is there a way around posting it on youtube prior to getting it in the forum?

Thanks guys for the tip on not pulling the pinon gear. As always, I appreciate the help.

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Bruce -- not to question your knowledge above, but why wouldn't a motor run (albeit in a jerky manner) with just 2 of 3 armature segments functional? If the "push" from the field coil was oriented just right, I'd think some spinning motion would be possible, particularly if the motor had an initial (starting) spinning momentum.
> 
> TJ


I've had a motor where one lead came loose, right at the commutator. The motor wouldn't run at all in either direction. I was able to fix it and it ran fine.

Measuring resistance between the commutators will get you a reading, even with one coil open. Bruce has the right answer, they should match very closely in resistance, and they'll only be a few ohms total.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, My Skype address is servoguy (what a surprise). I would be happy to watch what you are doing on Skype.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, back in ancient history, before God invented dirt, I used to make 2 and 3 pole motors using tin cans, coat hangers, some magnet wire and some copper trips to make the commutator and brushes. (We are talking 1954.) If a Lionel motor is missing a pole, it might run if you apply power and then spin the armature, but it is unlikely that it would start on its own. With a missing pole, it becomes a two pole motor.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

servoguy said:


> Joe, My Skype address is servoguy (what a surprise). I would be happy to watch what you are doing on Skype.


That's great! OK, I'm going to have to bring a bunch of the stuff out of the basement upstairs to where the computer is. Are you available anytime tomorrow? Let me know and I will then request to be a contact.

I do appreciate this "servoguy".
THanks.
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

servoguy said:


> TJ, back in ancient history, before God invented dirt, I used to make 2 and 3 pole motors using tin cans, coat hangers, some magnet wire and some copper trips to make the commutator and brushes. (We are talking 1954.) If a Lionel motor is missing a pole, it might run if you apply power and then spin the armature, but it is unlikely that it would start on its own. With a missing pole, it becomes a two pole motor.


"I've tried "helping" it along. I can spin the gear in the proper direction but it won't go beyond that. I push the gear in/out whatever and it won't budge. The resistance to moving it is a lot greater than when trying to move the gear without power. Without power, it spins just as easily as forward.

Joe


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, I should be available most of the day tomorrow.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If it will rotate freely without power but powered sticks, I'm thinking that Bruce's idea that the armature is rubbing may be true.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe, if the bearings in the motor are worn, you should be able to grasp the armature and move it side to side or up and down. Ditto the gear.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I've had a motor where one lead came loose, right at the commutator. The motor wouldn't run at all in either direction. I was able to fix it and it ran fine.
> 
> Measuring resistance between the commutators will get you a reading, even with one coil open. Bruce has the right answer, they should match very closely in resistance, and they'll only be a few ohms total.


John, as I understand things, the 3-pole armatures have windings on each pole, and then the tails from adjacent pole windings join together and then are connected to one of the commutator segments. If one of these junctures to the commutator came loose (as you describe), you'd be opening up the circuitry of TWO adjacent pole windings, not just one. In essence, you'd have only one remaining functional pole. In that case, I agree that the motor absolutely would not run.

In contrast ...

In my hypothetical scenario, I suggested that the windings on one of the poles could be damaged (broken) within the windings themselves, but leaving intact connections at both ends. In this case, one pole in non-functional, but the other two poles could still function. Here, I still think it's possible that the motor could possibly run ... poorly, mind you, but some rotational motion with the proper rotational inertia. As Bruce said, a two-pole motor.

Do you see / agree with the difference in the scenarios above? Am I wrong in my thinking?

Now having said that, I think the likelihood that this is what's wrong with Joe's motor is remote, at best. Rather, I'm just posing a hypothetical discussion for the fun of it, and to learn a bit more in the process.

Cheers,

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

servoguy said:


> Joe, if the bearings in the motor are worn, you should be able to grasp the armature and move it side to side or up and down. Ditto the gear.


No Up or down movement on either end. That's good, I guess.
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If it will rotate freely without power but powered sticks, I'm thinking that Bruce's idea that the armature is rubbing may be true.


Would the armature rub if there was no up/down left/right play in either end?
Joe


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

inxy said:


> Bruce, Back in post #86 (?) Joe removed the motor from the frame and had the same problems. Looking at the wiring diagrams in tj's post #65 whether in forward or reverse you are using the same wires but different direction of current flow. So I would eliminate wiring which leaves us with brushes, and motor bearings (front, back and thrust). Looking at the brush plate assembly the tension/pressure in the brushes can be adjusted by two spring loaded screws - too much/too little. If run in forward I don't see (?) a brush problem. Looking at the armature you have a long shaft with a thrust bearing, rear bearing, then about an inch of shaft and then a front bearing. It is possible with worn bearing that in running on one direction everything works right but in the other there is enough wear/play in the bearings that the shaft and thereby the armature tilts to rub/jamb instead of rotate.
> 
> In regards to another post of maybe something dropped into the motor and is jamming it. With the shell on the top of the motor is well protected. The underside of the motor is exposed thru the frame and one would have to turn the engine upside down and drop an object thru the rear truck to get it into the motor. Not likely.
> 
> ...


B,
The springs on the brushes were adjusted as tight as possible. I backed off each a half turn and applied power. I did this repeatedly till the screws were almost no longer engaged. No difference, forward fine, back NG

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> In contrast ...
> 
> In my hypothetical scenario, I suggested that the windings on one of the poles could be damaged (broken) within the windings themselves, but leaving intact connections at both ends. In this case, one pole in non-functional, but the other two poles could still function. Here, I still think it's possible that the motor could possibly run ... poorly, mind you, but some rotational motion with the proper rotational inertia. As Bruce said, a two-pole motor.
> 
> Do you see / agree with the difference in the scenarios above? Am I wrong in my thinking?


TJ, the way my armature broke was just one winding. The motor wouldn't run as a two-pole motor, probably because the poles weren't 180 degrees apart.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

joekenny said:


> Would the armature rub if there was no up/down left/right play in either end?
> Joe


Hard to say, the field coil may have shifted. The fact that it turns freely with no power but acts as a short with power rotating one way seems to indicate that's a possibility.

I'm guessing this is one that seeing it hands-on would be much more useful.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Joe,
Are you ready for Skype?


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Well Bruce (aka servoguy) was able to diagnose the problem in under 2 minutes while we were using SKYPE.

It was a dumb mistake on my part. 

In order to access the armature and inspect and clean the springs, brushes, communicator etc. I need to remove the coil wire from the pin in order to dismantle the motor. When putting it back together, I wired the coil to pin 4 as opposed to pin 3. 

Bruce waited while I switched the contact and lo and behold, forward and reverse.

Thanks to all you guys for your help and especially Bruce. 

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Who ever heard of a smart mistake? 

Glad you got it going.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

We all know how to wire it for forward motion now. 

Removing the armature is not easy. Glad it worked out.:thumbsup:


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## NorCalTransplant (Dec 6, 2011)

joekenny said:


> Well Bruce (aka servoguy) was able to diagnose the problem in under 2 minutes while we were using SKYPE.
> 
> It was a dumb mistake on my part.
> 
> ...


 :appl:	:appl:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

joekenny said:


> Well Bruce (aka servoguy) was able to diagnose the problem in under 2 minutes while we were using SKYPE.
> 
> It was a dumb mistake on my part.
> 
> ...


:lol_hitting:

Joe -- I think this little story will be inducted into the MTF Hall of Fame! You've graduated to official "Duhh Moment" status. I've been hanging out there, myself, on many occassions as I fiddle with my trains!

I'm VERY glad to hear of the diagnosis and the easy fix. Thumbs up to Bruce, and thumbs up to you, too, Joe, for your persistance in solving the puzzle.

Well done to all!

(Now post some pics of that baby runnin' 'round the tracks!)

TJ


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

*Uncouple question*

First off, thanks for all the help with the locomotive. I don't know how people could have done this before the internet.

I do have a question that I didn't see any discussion that related to my question in this forum.

I have the 5 rail track that has a 4 terminal connection to a Lionel controller that has two buttons. One is "Unload" and the other "Uncouple".

The unload works great and Im now working on a broken milk car to see if I can get that actually working. The little man moves but no milk bottles are unloaded. That however is not my question just yet.

The question is, what is supposed to happen when the "Uncouple" button is pushed? I took voltage readings on the track and when the "Unload" button is pushed, voltage changes from the 1st and 3rd rails to 3rd and 5th rails on the specialized track. That makes perfect sense and does its unload thing.

However, when I push the uncouple button, no voltage changes occur. I did see in this forum a track which had an electromagnet attachment. Is that what is required?

I'm surprised if that is the case since it appears that this particular train set was purchased all at one time (Back in 46 I believe) and that Lionel would sell the track and controller when only one function would work with this configuration.

As always, any help would be greatly appreciated on this one. Thanks,
Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The electromagnet activates the couplers on the cars. It should magnetize when you push the button.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

John, if is set is from '46, he would have the sliding shoes for the couplers. 

Joe, there are two types of couplers: electomagnetic and magnetic. The electromagnetic couplers have a coil on them that pulls a pin when energized and allows the coupler to open. The magnetic couplers have a movable piece on the bottom of the truck that when pulled down, opens the coupler. I believe your milk car probably has magnetic couplers.

When you press the uncouple button, you should have center rail voltage on each of the auxiliary rails, and the coil in the center of the control track (assuming you have a coil) should be energized. Not all of the control tracks have a coil. 

Look to see if your couplers have the coil or the movable piece on the bottom of the truck.

If you want, we could Skype again. That might be easier.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Well back in 46 they had coils on the coupler that activated through a shoe, hence a 5 rail track. The refrig car also operates with the shoes. I gather that your track has no center coil. That track is RCS.

Try this thread.

3472 milk car


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I realize there are two kinds of couplers. However, I doubt all his cars are equipped with coil couplers, so doubtless he'd want a UCS track at some point anyway.  In any case, the milk car uses the extra tracks on either an RCS or UCS track.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The wiring on these can make you go mad.
Upside down, right side up. Those controllers UGH!

Joe, that second link has manual instructions.

I haven't messed with a milk car in ages. I am saner because of it.

Take up on the Skype offer. :thumbsup:


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I checked my reference book. All the milk cars have magnetic couplers. They need the center coil in the control track to operate.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That makes sense since the car operates with the shoe contacts. Cars before that time required the shoes for decoupling. The RCS was around with no center magnet in the track.


I think what Joe has is the track without the center electromagnet.

If he presses "uncouple" then the car will function. Uncouple? no, since it needs the magnet.
That's may turn on the events as I see it. It gets confusing fast.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

Hi Guys,
So it turns out that the milk car unloads fine but does not uncouple (per servoguy).

I have a caboose with a search light and it does uncouple. There are two sensors that come off of the truck wheels and also has a roller pickup for the light. So the sensors are the ones that allow it to uncouple.

However, I do have (not sure of the terminology) a flat bed car with sides that allows you to dump things. I guess either coal or lumber. That has the shoes on the truck wheels and does both uncouple and unload. Strange.

Thanks again for all the input. 

Joe


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The shoes are hot and common for unloading, but both are hot for uncoupling. That allows them to do two functions with a single set of rails.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

*Gateman 45N*

I have a gateman 45N which is prewar.
T Man had a suggestion about hooking it up to the track but I would like to use the original contactor plate that is included in the set. I've cleaned it all up and it appears to work fine.

I see a lot of wiring diagrams for the gateman but all have 3 contacts while this version only has 2.


The contactor plate has 3 contacts. Two contacts on one side and a single contact on the other.

My question is how would it be wired. I realize that when weight is applied to the plate it makes contact with the single connector (on the right).

Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Joe


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This one has two the 145 auto gateman

The switch is for activating the gate guy. The light stays on and bypasses the switch.


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## joekenny (Jan 1, 2012)

T-Man said:


> This one has two the 145 auto gateman
> 
> The switch is for activating the gate guy. The light stays on and bypasses the switch.


Thanks T, that did the trick. I never saw that wiring diagram for the 145. 

Appreciate the help and thanks again.

Joe


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## twistedtree (May 23, 2012)

i read that the solenoid for the e unit uses gravity so when l had the same problem, i found that holding the loco firmly and tipping it upside down with a solid jolt until I hear a very subtle click always resets my 671 e unit. it runs very well after sitting in an attic for 50 years!!


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