# Thoughts Final Layout



## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I have come to realize that EVERY layout is a exercise in compromise. I clearly can't afford a 1:1 train so anything I try to put in my basement that I can build is a compromise. There are only a few things that I MUST have, and to get them I had to give up other things. To make this layout look GREAT will take a lot of scenery magic and tricks of the eye, but that is part of the fun to me. I must have the following.

A free standing layout to allow me to access both sides on wheels with a front operating focus
At least 2 continuous running conscripts
A switching railyard
At least 2 distinct non railroad industries
A fantastic town.
The Thomas Viaduct
The attached layout has a newly added reverse loop on the leading edge that is big enough to hold anything I may use. The area to the right behind the line will be a 8"inch or so raised platform with a town on it (it is going to be about 20" deep) with a removable back for access. Everything is Kato N scale track with a few flex track pieces thrown in where needed.

I appreciate your thoughts as always.

Rob


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Turntable.
Are you going to have a engine house or roundhouse for the turntable?
The turntable seems like it is being wasted with only 4 tracks coming off it?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The turntable serves the important function of reversing the direction an engine is facing in the yard area, so I don't have a problem with that.

My issue is that you have A LOT going on underneath that town area, none of which will be visible as you operate. Makes it both a waste of effort and a high risk area, because the more turnouts etc, the greater the chance of a derailment or stall. Even an opening in the back isn't going to give you a lot of room to fix things under there.

Move the turnout where the two inner tracks join counterclockwise so that it's outside the covered area, and make the two outer loops continuous track to eliminate that pair of turnouts. You could leave that in place if you're really desperate to have a choice of two routes there, because they should be close enough to the opening to be easily accessible, but you will want some kind of directional indicator so you know which route is selected (LEDs on a simple track diagram on the fascia would work).

Other than that, I think you've done pretty well for your space. And yes, unless you have unlimited space and budget, every layout is a compromise.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Running two trains at once continuously is going to keep you very busy at the turnout control panel.

Unless I have missed something, you won't be able to run them unattended.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Bigfoot21075 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I have come to realize that EVERY layout is a exercise in compromise. I clearly can't afford a 1:1 train so anything I try to put in my basement that I can build is a compromise. There are only a few things that I MUST have, and to get them I had to give up other things. To make this layout look GREAT will take a lot of scenery magic and tricks of the eye, but that is part of the fun to me. I must have the following.
> 
> ...



Rob;

You had better call the Military Police and report those "2 continuous running conscripts." If they're conscripts (draftees) continually running away, they're deserters. 😄 Just kidding. I assume you meant "consists." Maybe auto-correct has struck again. Another guy posted that he and his young son were "making a mountain using "paper machete." I hope a kid wasn't handling a real machete! Conversely, a machete made of paper wouldn't be much use at hacking your way through the jungle. Enough silly stuff. On to the criticism! 😕 

By "non-railroad industries" I assume you mean industries that are not owned & operated by the railroad company, but rather, are customers of that railroad, with sidings for shipping their products by rail. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in modeling them.
(You may possibly have meant industries that are not rail-served, but ship by truck, but I doubt that. You're building a model railroad, not a model freeway system. 😄 )
Will you be running steam locomotives? If not, and your railroad has switched to diesel power, the turntable isn't necessary, and it takes up a lot of room.

Your railyard has a lot of short tracks. Fewer, but longer, tracks might work better. They will save some space for structures & scenery, which you have very little of, and some money spent on loads of turnouts.
Moving your yard would also help. Perhaps it could be re-located to the bottom center area of your plan, right above the bottom main line track, and below the other, parallel, track. That would give you a longer yard, and also free up precious space for scenery, without track all over it.

Your raised town is an OK idea, but an opening at the back may not be enough access. If you make the entire raised "town site" from extruded foam, it will be light enough to lift the whole town off the layout, and get excellent access to the track under it. I see you also have three turnouts down there. Having "buried" turnouts is a very bad practice, and makes a lift-off town a virtual necessity. Murphy's law for model railroading dictates that any buried turnout WILL fail, & need repairs/adjustment. Also, all that buried track will need cleaning just as often as any other track. Cleaning track through a rear access opening is possible, but often a major P.I.T.A. Repair/adjustment of buried turnouts through such an opening is all-but-impossible, and gives whole new depth of meaning to the concept of abject misery.
Lifting off the town turns buried track back into exposed track, and makes everything a whole lot easier.

Do you plan to run passenger trains? If so, how do the N-scale residents of "Elevated Town" get down to the train station? For that matter, do you plan to have a train station?
If you move your yard, and don't need a turntable, you will have space for the town, complete with station, in the center area of the layout, and at "ground level." The elevated town site could then be converted to mountainous scenery.

I'm afraid that making this layout "look GREAT", in terms of realism, is going to be extremely difficult/impossible. There is simply so much track crammed into the space that there is hardly any room for anything else. Also, the exposed parts of the multiple loops don't look anything like a real railroad's sparse trackage, and make the "round & round the little train goes" idea pretty obvious, at least that's how it looks on the diagram.

Of course what "looks great" is very much a matter of personal opinion. A lot of O-scale three-rail layouts are covered in track & operating accessories, but they probably look great to their owners, and to others, including even prototype minimalist me. For what they are, they do look good.

So, if this track plan works for you, & makes you happy, go for it. 😊

Traction Fan 🙂


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The European designs of a cab on both ends have virtually eliminated the turntable overseas. There are still some operating as museums with live steam, but are seldom if ever used in revenue services.


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

I’m not seeing/finding a reversing loop in the attached plan.


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

Big Ed said:


> Turntable.
> Are you going to have a engine house or roundhouse for the turntable?
> The turntable seems like it is being wasted with only 4 tracks coming off it?


*Yes, I plan on an engine house and round house. I want to run in the 1940's to 1950's, so I want steam and other. The Turntable is required (especially before I figured out the "reverse loop to do intricate rail yard switching. Now I think I am relocating that rail yard as advised below so its layout will change. Do I need a turn table? nah but Nerd Rob does.*



CTValleyRR said:


> The turntable serves the important function of reversing the direction an engine is facing in the yard area, so I don't have a problem with that.
> 
> My issue is that you have A LOT going on underneath that town area, none of which will be visible as you operate. Makes it both a waste of effort and a high risk area, because the more turnouts etc, the greater the chance of a derailment or stall. Even an opening in the back isn't going to give you a lot of room to fix things under there.
> 
> ...


*I am concerned about the hidden complexity as well. I am going to have a go pro under the cover as well as signal lights on my command board, but I think may either put the town elevation on a piano hinge so it opens from the back, or make it removable all together using connectors for the electrical connections.*



MichaelE said:


> Running two trains at once continuously is going to keep you very busy at the turnout control panel.
> 
> Unless I have missed something, you won't be able to run them unattended.


*It took me a while to figure out the 2 routes as well. What's worse is once I did, I came back the next day only to lose them again  so I made the attached color track version so I would remember. If I go all DCC on my turns I can just make it a setting with DCC.*



traction fan said:


> Rob;
> 
> You had better call the Military Police and report those "2 continuous running conscripts." If they're conscripts (draftees) continually running away, they're deserters. 😄 Just kidding. I assume you meant "consists." Maybe auto-correct has struck again. Another guy posted that he and his young son were "making a mountain using "paper machete." I hope a kid wasn't handling a real machete! Conversely, a machete made of paper wouldn't be much use at hacking your way through the jungle. Enough silly stuff. On to the criticism! 😕
> 
> ...





MichaelE said:


> The European designs of a cab on both ends have virtually eliminated the turntable overseas. There are still some operating as museums with live steam, but are seldom if ever used in revenue services.


*Conscripts... Yes that is what I get for creating a post at 5am. Thanks for the fix. BTW a paper Machete seems fairly safe to me. . Yes, non-rail industry is industries that are not owned & operated by the railroad company, but rather, are customers of that railroad. TBD which ones. I do want to run steam as well as diesel. I am going for sometime in the 1940's to 50's that leaves an enormous time frame for using "older equipment" on both the rails and industries. You are of course right, there is no need for the turntable but it is very cool, and will aid in switching operations.*

*The yard location is going to move, I agree with everybody. I did not really like it there, but knew I wanted one. I think you are also 100% correct about the yard tracks. Mine are too short and too numerous. Can you imagine what that control panel would look like?  I would much rather have a few long sections that a ton of short ones. Your suggested location is where the original layout I borrowed that section from had it.

Making the town on foam is a FANTASTIC idea. Then I don't have to deal with a hinge or other whacky mechanism.

I struggled with the roads in SCARM, I finally gave up. My road plan and elevated town is take from Dave Betz and his door layout. You really get a good view of it at 37 or 38 seconds and at 47 seconds for the road down. 



*
*I think looking "great" has a different meaning for me. I do not share an in depth railroad knowledge. I love it, as I love machines with motors and things that go. I have only ever ridden on one steam train and that was just a short ride on the Strasberg Railroad in PA and a 1950's Diesel on the now defunct Gettysburg Railroad. I just know I love trains (tractors, trucks, cars, bikes, planes... well you get the idea). TO me I want the realism in the scenery and buildings. I want someone to look at that rock and think wow that looks real, same with that road, wall, church or what ever. I think you can achieve stunning realism for the person who may not be rail savvy by making your details simply incredible. THAT is why I love modeling. I spent a year stick building a 20% remote control Curtis Jenny Biplane from pictures of my grandfathers and from my memories of being in the plane (he flew in the Jack Pogue Air Show). So yes, i have trains going round and round and switching. I put a track plan down then planned what it is going to do afterwards.

Your advice (everyone actually) has been FANTASTIC and has greatly increased my enjoyment of this new hobby. I also hope this is not my last layout.

Rob*


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## Bigfoot21075 (Aug 7, 2021)

kilowatt62 said:


> I’m not seeing/finding a reversing loop in the attached plan.


 That is because I attached it to the WRONG piece of track. Thanks, back to the drawing board on that one NO ERALY MORNING SCARM!

Now have a look at the bottom most section. It may not be worth it in the end.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Very ingenious. Thanks for the new drawing. I couldn't see it without color.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

I think the yard could use some work. I love the rest of the plan, it looks to do what you need it to.

For the yard your ladder order is killing you, having the turntable lead peel off so early, as well as that north spur is really reducing your classification track length.

If you reverse the turntable so the shed tracks come back towards the yard lead you could probably peel off the southern most spur to access the turn table. This allows you to shuffle the whole yard southeast to gain more classification space and maybe add more features.
Barring this, add a run around from the turntable lead to the southern most classification track.
Move the turnout leading to the lone spur to the northern most classification track, then shuffle the whole yard assembly to where it originates now. Alternatively branch from the siding.


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

This might help.

The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design (ogaugerr.com)


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## Thelic (Jan 10, 2018)

Ok, now I know why I love the plan. Its a John Armstrong! Its the Granite Gorge and Northern with a few modifications.

This is a classic plan, you wont be disappointed. I would highly recommend you build it with the grades though.


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