# Royal Blue Rebuild



## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Hey All,

I have my Uncle's 350 Royal Blue engine and I am getting ready to give it a massive overhaul. It is pretty trashed from heavy use and I decided to put smoke, and a full speed can motor with a flywheel and a dalee e-unit. 

Everything fits ok and the can motor works great, but I have not rebuilt the smoke unit yet.

My question is how well the smoke unit would work since can motors operate on a lower voltage, and would it be better to use a half speed can motor.


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## Nuttin But Flyer (Dec 19, 2011)

Having had no experience with can motors, I really don't feel comfortable answering this. But what difference would it make? Aren't the voltages the same despite the speed difference? I thought it was gearing that produced the speed difference.


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm not really sure. I read on the Portlines website that the full speed can motors draw less current, and have seen elsewhere that half speed can motors are a better bet because they need more current to operate at a comparable speed. It's something about the way the worm gear is cut. I read that there are really two grooves on the usual flyer armature, but that the half speed ones have one groove.

Here is a long thread from the CTT forum. I thought to use the can motor I have because it has the flywheel and will give better starts and stops.

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/183434.aspx?sort=ASC&pi350=1


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

Nuttin But Flyer said:


> I thought it was gearing that produced the speed difference.


That is what I have heard also.


*****

You might consider a newer smoke unit compatible with DC vs. what you seem to be saying, using a vintage flyer smoke unit.

I have read somewhere, and I hope John will forgive my complete massacre of the nomenclature, the use of resistors? and a rectifier on board to limit the voltage to the can motor while still allowing the smoke unit to draw full power.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Can motors have permanent magnets and can operate much smoother at lower voltages, though the flywheel does aid in smoothness it's not required. One way to make better smoke is to wire diodes into the circuits to drop motor voltage. Check this thread for more info http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=18421&highlight=diodes O gauge guys have been doing this for a while, can't see why something similar can't work for Flyers. Doing this correctly reduces voltage available to the motor leaving track voltage to the smoker.

Carl


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## The New Guy (Mar 11, 2012)

I was certain someone smarter than myself would provide the answer.


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Would that work with a dc motor? The post said that it was done with AC can motors, and I'm using a dc motor.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

The key thing is to add a bit of resistance to the motor circuits. It shouldn't take a lot, I'd send Gunrunnerjohn a message, he's really good with electrical stuff. If anyone can sort this out he should.

Carl


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Kelpieflyer said:


> Would that work with a dc motor? The post said that it was done with AC can motors, and I'm using a doc motor.


The diode trick works in either AC or DC, and each diode you add will drop the voltage by about .7 volts if I remember right.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I am surprised no one has pointed out the original 350 Royal Blue did not include a smoke unit. Of this style, only the 354/356 Silver Bullets included a smoke unit. They were also a plastic body, not cast metal like the Royal Blue. It is likely the chassis was swapped if it has an original Flyer smoke unit. A properly rebuilt smoke unit will make plenty of smoke without dropping the voltage to the motor. The thing is these engines tend to run fast in my opinion. The advantage of the the can motor with the half speed worm gear is the speed is more stable and prototypical. These are available from several sources and can be installed to run on AC.


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

I decided to add smoke when I started to rebuild the engine. The can motor I have is a full speed motor, so I thought to add the diodes to decrease the current to the motor. I really don't want to buy another can motor, and I wanted the can motor with the flywheel.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

A diode string, as recommended by others would be a good solution to get the result you want. 
Tom


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Anyone have an idea of how many diodes I should use and how to wire them?


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

You'll likely need either 6 or 8 depending on how much voltage Flyers run on, and desired smoke output. Basically, you wire one string together pointed one way and another string pointed opposite. Each diode results in a .6 to .7 volt drop per diode pair. -|>-|>-|>- -<|-<|-<|-

Carl


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Should I wire up the diodes shown in drawing number 5 on this spec sheet?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Drawing 5 has the correct configuration. I'd use 3A diodes, and you can simply add diode pairs until you get the desired result. Remember, you have to have matching numbers on each side, and all the diodes should be the same type.

For a more compact configuration if space is at a premium, consider using 3A diode bridges. With a bridge, you wire to the AC input terminals and tie the + & - Terminals together. Here's a suitable 3A Diode Bridge if you go that way. Here's what's in a standard bridge rectifier so you can see how it works.


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## Kelpieflyer (Jan 9, 2012)

I know very little about diodes, so I suppose 3A is the type? Do they come in specific voltages? Do I just solder the ends together? Will they work ok with DC current?

Thanks,


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I knew GRJ would have the answer, I admit to being a bit light in the use of diodes.

Diodes are a one way check valve for electricity. They don't know the difference between AC/DC current. 3A is the max amps they will tolerate. Shoot for a voltage rating around 50 (might be able to go lower). Yes, they get soldered together just be sure orientation is correct. Refer to GRJ's diagram above.

Carl


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