# 356 power issues



## chrisallen21 (Sep 1, 2016)

Been struggling with a 356 for quite some time now and just can't seem to get this baby to run. I have included some pictures to help with the information I have. I looked at an existing 356 that I have and the wiring looks correct but who knows, maybe I mixed something up. Anyways, here is what I know (sorry if it is confusing). I added numbers to the positions in the pictures to assist:

- eunit seems to work (lots of humming and is advancing the drum when power is applied to reverse the direction)
- stripped down, cleaned out old grease, and added new grease to armature
- polished the eunit drum and reinstalled
- new smoke kit installed
- new finger units (top and bottom) and re-soldered all connections
- cleaned the armature face and installed new brushes and springs


























Tested with meter:
- there is power from the bulb socket (1) to the truck rear rivet contact (12)
- there is power from the bulb socket (2) to the smoke unit top contact (3)
- there is power from both connections on the field (4 and 5) to the truck rear rivet contact (12)
- there is power from both front sprint clips (6 and 7) to the eunit top contact (11)
- there is power from the armature face (9) to the truck front rivet (8 or 10, different pictures)

Was thinking it might be something with the field but not sure how to test this. 

Any suggestions on where to start? I picked up a bunch of (new to me) stuff that I promised I wouldn't dive into until I could get this one back running but am starting to run out of ideas.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Look for a broken coil (field) wire. Usually the one under windings.


----------



## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

My favorite is a short at the truck/ tender connection. I always bench test first and place the two wires on the truck contacts. If it runs you can move the trucks and test for shorts.


Second guess is a bad insulator on a driver, the rim will short the frame to the rail.


The drawbar needs to be insulated too.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

The 356 is a 1953 engine that had 5 wires from the tender instead of the 4 that earlier production engines had. The 5th wire was added to allow the headlamp bulb and smoke unit to have power when the engine was in neutral. Earlier engines did not have this feature. Here is an easy 5 wire diagram to show where the wires go. Ignore the fiber plug at the rear since the 356 was direct wired and run your wires accordingly.






There is also a factory diagram but it's a little harder to read. http://myflyertrains.org/gallery/album209/356_2 I'm not sure but 1.5 to2.5 Ohms is probably a close enough reading if you need to measure resistance of the field. Double check your wiring but both field wires going to the same truck rivet doesn't seem correct. Hope this helps.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Check your wiring. Like Cramden said, there shouldn't be 2 wires going to the same truck rivet.With the engine chassis facing to the left, the left field wire should go to the left side of the bottom finger on the e-unit..The other field wire should go to the top right side finger.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Like as has been said, one wire to both trucks could not be correct. That would be a dead short and should turn on the short light on transformer. Is your short light coming on transformer? I doubt you have a wire to both trucks if you followed a wiring diagram. That would shut down transformer.

I reread your first post and see you put new fingers. Make sure fingers are touching the drum. I did that once.
I now make sure I bend fingers down to make sure they touch drum. My engine did not run when fingers were not touching.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I messed up on my first set of fingers I installed. I did not bend them down some. 
If you just installed new fingers and did not bend them, that could be your problem.
I found mine were not touching by using a pencil or coffee stir (something non-metallic)
and pushing on fingers. I had to remove fingers, bend, and reinstall.

Just looked at your pic. It looks like the top fingers are touching but I would check them and the bottom fingers.


----------



## chrisallen21 (Sep 1, 2016)

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I will start out with my wiring check as I agree, two wires to one rivet seems off to me. If not that, I will test the field coil to see if I get a reading from it.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have seen 2 wires to one truck but not one wire to 2 trucks.


----------



## chrisallen21 (Sep 1, 2016)

Well, I decided to start from scratch and removed all of the wiring. The diagram was definitely easier to see with the colour wires clearly laid out (I just can't seem to figure out the electrical drawings; I am a software developer yet I can't seem to understand the basics of electricity; go figure :dunno.

Unfortunately, same result (arrgh!). I am beginning to suspect the coil but am not sure at this point. Any tips on being able to isolate the problem? For example, I know there have been several posts on 'bench-testing' but I really never understood how to do it completely. I was thinking if I can prove the tender/eunit are doing what they should be, then it has to be something on the engine side. Can anyone post pictures (I am better with pictures than electrical diagrams, lol) of how to set up a simple bench test. I know it would involve leads to components but am unsure which ones.

One of my upcoming projects it to build some sort of stand to do bench tests with instead of on track itself. I know flyernut has a sweet setup with the rollers but that is a bit beyond me at this point. Again, pictures would be most appreciated!


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

When you get totally frustrated with it, send it over to me.. I'll be more than happy to look at it, no charge for parts or any other thing.. Just pay the shipping... I have several test mules I use to check for engine run ability and tender issues. Should be an easy fix.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

flyernut said:


> When you get totally frustrated with it, send it over to me.. I'll be more than happy to look at it, no charge for parts or any other thing.. Just pay the shipping... I have several test mules I use to check for engine run ability and tender issues. Should be an easy fix.


Flyernut is the guy! He gives much to many of us who need help. I would heartily endorse him!:thumbsup:


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

The original poster has sent me 2 of his diesels for a look-at. One is a Rocket engine, and the other is a Santa Fe. The Rocket was an easy one, as he said it just didn't run good/fast. I test drove it and he was right, a little sluggish... I took it apart and just did a flush-out with some CRC eletrical spray, and did a re-oil and re-grease. It really came alive, runs fast, and is a very nice engine.. The Santa Fe engine is the original "TRAIN FROM HADES"!!!!.. I'll do a small thread of it...


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

flyernut said:


> When you get totally frustrated with it, send it over to me.. I'll be more than happy to look at it, no charge for parts or any other thing.. Just pay the shipping... I have several test mules I use to check for engine run ability and tender issues. Should be an easy fix.


I should have stated no charge for parts I had on hand,lol.. The op has sent me a diesel instead of his steamer, I do have those parts on hand, but not so for a steamer.


----------



## chrisallen21 (Sep 1, 2016)

A happy ending for my Rocket and Sante Fe diesels thanks to Flyernut (I decided to salvage the 356 for parts). Both are back in fine running condition and burning up the track here in Southern Ontario, Canada. A huge shout-out to Flyernut :appl::appl::appl: for excellent service and keeping me posted on progress. Definitely would not hesitate to send him additional engines in the future to bring back to life. I am only into this hobby for a couple years and the repairs were definitely beyond my capabilities.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

flyernut is Da Man. He does great service work. Glad your 2 diesels are flying around the tracks. I am working on one of my lionel/American flyer diesel locos. It has an AC motor
and seems to be very much like the original Alco diesels. The reverse unit burned up, well
it let out the magic smoke and it doesn't run at all. I was having trouble with the rear motor and removed it and wired front motor direct to track power. It runs ok, but won't pull much so I am going to reinstall rear motor also. Just need 1 brush. Brush broke off the brush bracket and I think they will both run now. I am going to add some weight.
Front motor spins its wheels too easily. With rear motor removed and reverse unit removed it is too light. Right now it only runs in forward, someday I Might get a dallee reverse unit for it. LOL, reverse is over rated. Actually I miss neutral so I can stop and the B unit with railsounds will still sound off and the horn can blow.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

chrisallen21 said:


> A happy ending for my Rocket and Sante Fe diesels thanks to Flyernut (I decided to salvage the 356 for parts). Both are back in fine running condition and burning up the track here in Southern Ontario, Canada. A huge shout-out to Flyernut :appl::appl::appl: for excellent service and keeping me posted on progress. Definitely would not hesitate to send him additional engines in the future to bring back to life. I am only into this hobby for a couple years and the repairs were definitely beyond my capabilities.


Great news!!.I'm glad you liked them. It's just too bad I didn't have more diesel parts on hand so I could have kept my promise to you as to just pay for shipping.Unforeseen troubles popped up on that Santa Fe.. Here's a late Merry Christmas to you and yours.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> flyernut is Da Man. He does great service work. Glad your 2 diesels are flying around the tracks. I am working on one of my lionel/American flyer diesel locos. It has an AC motor
> and seems to be very much like the original Alco diesels. The reverse unit burned up, well
> it let out the magic smoke and it doesn't run at all. I was having trouble with the rear motor and removed it and wired front motor direct to track power. It runs ok, but won't pull much so I am going to reinstall rear motor also. Just need 1 brush. Brush broke off the brush bracket and I think they will both run now. I am going to add some weight.
> Front motor spins its wheels too easily. With rear motor removed and reverse unit removed it is too light. Right now it only runs in forward, someday I Might get a dallee reverse unit for it. LOL, reverse is over rated. Actually I miss neutral so I can stop and the B unit with railsounds will still sound off and the horn can blow.


I haven"t been able to salvage those pesky brushes for diesels once they break!!! I get mine from Jeff Kane but they're expensive.. I believe I paid $4.50 apiece for them for a total of $9 bucks for a pair. I put new brushes and springs in Chrisallen's Santa Fe, plus a brush bracket assembly which was VERY expensive.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

They are not a good design and I have had 2 break. I was able to solder one back on and it is working. On the other one the peg broke off that goes through the bracket. I am going to drill a small hole in the brush and solder some wire in it and then to bracket. There is a pair of brushes on ebay and the guy wants 16 something for a pair. I can't
blame lionel this time cause I think they are the same that AF used. I found out why the rear motor was not running, a wire is hanging down from the coil, its not broke, 
and it is catching on the armature, going to try some glue on it. I will pick up a pair of brushes from Jeff Kane. I think I bought 10 shoulder brushes and 10 springs for less than 10 bucks. That's what 2 diesel brushes will cost. Sure wish I had not bought any diesel sets. And dumb me bought 4 sets of them. Every time I think about them the word JUNK comes to mind. The DC can motors are a little better but still not nice locos. The motors are too small. The motors in my O scale diesels are about 4 or 5 times bigger.
Now, that is just my opinion. I am convinced though, LOL.

Oh, and I hate those V springs for the AC motor brushes.


----------



## race944t (Jan 5, 2016)

So an easy way to isolate the e-unit from the engine and test the engine is to do the following:
1. Make sure you either unplug the tender or make sure the e-unit is locked in neutral. That means one of the fingers is touching plastic, not copper.
2. Using clip leads, attach lead #1 to the base post transformer and to a brush tube. Attach lead #2 between the other brush tube and a field wire making sure it is connected to an uncoated section of the wire. Attach lead #3 to the remaining field wire (uncoated section) and the variable post on the transformer.
3. Slowly add power and see if the motor starts to turn. If it turns, apply more power to see if it runs good.

If the motor runs good, the problem is in your wiring or the e-unit.


----------

