# Lionel Rio Grande 8213 only runs in reverse



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Hello all,

New guy here and I know nothing about model trains (or real trains really). What I do know is that I really enjoyed playing with my model train when I was young and would like to get it up and running again for my son. I have a Lionel O-scale Rio Grande Steam Locomotive 8213 (2-4-2). I also have all the tracks, cars, and the original transformer (type 4850) for the train as well. I spent quite a bit of time last night cleaning the tops and tips of the tracks so the electrical connection is good. I placed the locomotive on the track and fired up the transformer. Then I remembered why I stopped playing with my train. It only goes in reverse now. Every time I swing the transformer from off to on, the light on the locomotive comes on but the motor of the train only spins when it is time to go backwards. Plus it only really moves backwards when I almost max out the transformer and it sort of surges, it’s not a smooth roll. The plus side is the light and smoke stack still work so that was exciting to watch.

With all that being said, is this something I can fix myself, can I possibly take it somewhere, or send it off for repair? I am semi-mechanically inclined but have NEVER worked on a train before. Plus I do not want to get in over my head. 

Every year at a train museum down the road they have a Christmas show and a hobby group brings in model trains and runs them for the kids. I plan to talk to someone there about my train this year now that I have the train in my hand but I did want to find an online board to ask my questions as well.

Summary:
1.	Lionel O-scale Rio Grande Steam Locomotive 8213 only goes backwards
2.	Reverse is not a smooth roll, it surges and requires almost full power
3.	I have never worked on a train before but willing to try (I think)
4.	I live south of Houston, TX, USA


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I belive there is a switch on the bottom of the locomotive that locks the electronic e unit in forward or reverse. II'm not completely sure on this. One switch turns the smoke unit on and off and the other is for the e unit. Play with those and that might just fix it. ( just remember to not run the smoke unit without fluid) . Also oil the axials, and side rods, and gears. Just a little bit. Clean the wheels and pick up rollers. Don't get oil n the underside of the wheels. I only use motor oil on my trains now. Also check for hair etc stuck on the gears, wheels. A picture of the bottom might be helpful. Keep us posted. It might be a simple fix!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's the Service Manual 8213 Complete, that might help.

A proper lube is essential, and as mentioned, it's likely the reverse lockout switch is just set wrong.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Attached is a picture of the underside i happen to take last night. I can take a better one later. As for the liquid smoke, where is a good source online for it and what is the name of it?

"Oil the axials, and side rods, and gears. Just a little bit. Clean the wheels and pick up rollers." Because i am not 100% sure what some of those are, am i safe to just oil up the moving parts?


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Here's the Service Manual 8213 Complete, that might help.



Hey thanks gunrunnerjohn. That will be a big help.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Shoot, should have rotated the image. Here it is again.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use JT's Mega-Steam in my locomotives, it's available at most hobby shops that sell O-scale stuff.

BTW, from the manual, it appears that the 8213 did not come with a lockout switch, so the reverse board may have a problem. They can be had for around $15 if that turns out to be the problem.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see any switches, not even the smoke switch.


----------



## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I have a few pickup trucks which have electronic e units. I thought they were broken as well. 

Make sure you apply the power, power down, and wait for 2 to 3 seconds before powering up. With this timing, my electronic e units work fine. 

If I try to cycle as fast as the mechanical e units work, I find I'm stuck.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Dave, it should have started out in forward, so I suspect it's probably either locked in a single direction or broken.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Mine with the switches has a different number but looks exactly the same. I know they used that bodyand cconfiguration in a lot of different sets.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't see the switches in the picture.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I ment to include that in the post.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Update:

I took it apart a little being careful with every step. I cleaned up the gears removing the carpet lint from the motor shaft between the pinion gear and the motor as well as the other various locations there was lint. (I didnt have a train table as a kid, it was either the kitchen floor or the carpet in my room). I also cleaned all the wheels with goo-be-gone and lubed up all moving parts. I put it back together and it was the same result. I took it back apart and finally realized that the side rails the move in and out were rubbing the wheels on one side. The bracket at the front wheels was bent less than 90 degrees. I guess the train took a hit or two from one of my Tonka trucks :laugh:. After i straightened them out, and put it all back together, its running great even at a very low speed. Although still only in reverse. 

BUT...besides the reverse deal i have two more issues:

1. When i removed the motor (I unscrewed two screws and flipped it outward to get to the shaft). I noticed under it a loose "shoe" inside the body. Was there really an extra shoe in there?? I do not see it listed in the schematic so im scratching my head on that one. 

2. I picked up some liquid smoke from a local hobby shop and the guy said it was safe for all trains. I added 3 drops on up to 10 drops but it barley smokes now. I mean, i have to really look for the smoke. Not sure what happened there. I shook out the extra drops of smoke from the train for fear of damaging it.


----------



## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

I looked up the transformer on e-bay and it looks like the one I have that is DC. The red switch at the bottom right of the transformer controls direction instead of an off/ on cycle like an e-unit. Try sliding the switch up or down to change the direction.
Randy


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

I will look today when i get home. Perhaps i just overlooked it. Below are the pics of my transformer i took the other day but i did not capture the sides.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's an AC transformer PeeWhy. It's looking a lot like the reverse board has died in that locomotive. If you could fit it in, I have a couple of boards that have been removed from other things, but they're not the boards that came in that locomotive. I don't know what kind of space you have in there, don't have one to look at.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Are there any recommended sites to purchase a new board from? A google search of "Lionel 8214-51" does not give clear results of a reliable source.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Try Jeff at The Train Tender, he'll know how to find it. If he doesn't have it, give Bill at Modern Toy Train Parts a call, I suspect he'll have it in stock.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Thanks gunrunnerjohn you have been a huge help, i have sent Jeff an email asking for assistance.

I did notice on the first page of the schematic, that there is a switch (3664-303). My unit does not have that from what i can tell or it is hidden. I wonder if that is the reverse lock on some models.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The book does cover multiple models, so I suspect the lockout switch is one of the options from the comments on that page. You might look at the actual board and see if anything is connected to those terminals where the lockout switch connects.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The switch, on mine is by the rear wheels, up in the engine body a bit.


----------



## rdmtgm (Nov 25, 2011)

I see from your picture that it is not the same transformer as the one I saw on e-bay, as gunrunner said you have an AC transformer. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Update: I spoke with Jeff (very nice gentleman and eager to help). Before ordering anything he suggested that i swap the wires on the motor to see if it goes forward now instead of backwards. Sure enough it went forward so we know for sure the E-unit is bad. I plan to place my order with him soon and will see if it resolves the issue.

As for the smoke, i believe the bellow (plastic round thing with a spring behind it) keeps getting stuck so it is not smoking well at all. I removed the round thing and spring, wiped it down and lubricated it but it still felt sticky. Does anyone have any tricks to keep that moving smooth? Plus the smoke stack unit is a pain in the neck to balance while trying to connect the front wheels keeping it all lined up when putting the train back together. Is there a trick to doing that or is every train unique?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you clean the piston off totally, it should work, at least for some time.

I never had any particular issue putting the smoke unit back together, I guess my 3rd hand is what tips the balance here.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Do you lubricate the piston? If so, with really thin oil or something else?


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Don't use thin oil for anything. It will get gummy. Use motor oil. It never gets gummy.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Don't oil the piston at all. Clean it and the inside of the cylinder and leave it at that. I never oil those.


----------



## stlouieblues (Dec 22, 2013)

*Similar issue*

I have the same engine 8213 Rio Grande and it wasn't working when I setup my layout this year. Light would come one and smoker works. Took it apart and tested the motor and worked fine going around the e unit. I also confirmed current going to e unit too. I did notice that the foam on the back of the e unit was breaking down so I took electrical tape and applied it to the metal train surfaces surrounding the e unit.I ordered a new e unit but before receiving and installing it in the engine, it began working fine on Xmas day (Santa?). Which was great since the my Grand children were able to see it working. Now a week later it just stopped working again. Any thoughts? I'll replace the e unit and see what happens.


----------



## PeeWhy (Nov 18, 2013)

Sorry for the late response. Long story short, replaced my E-Unit and my smoke unit and now i have a fully functional train again! I also purchased the rubber band for the wheel as well.


----------

