# DCC friendly Shinohara Turnout????



## BDP

I purchase this Shinohara curved turnout and wondering if it is DCC friendly? The description didnt say if it was or wasnt. The box it came in was all black and said "Quality Track by Shinohara". 

It is a #126 #6 curved turnout. I have asked this in another place but havent gotten anything is stone yet. I have been to Allan Gartner's site and I cant tell from the pics. Part of my says it is DCC friendly but another part of me says it isnt. 

Here is what I have:


























Thanks
Brad


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## NIMT

Sorry to say not DCC friendly.
But they can be made to be friendly with a little work.
Here is a site that explains it better, if you run into a hick up just yell back and I'll try to help more.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm


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## BDP

NIMT.COM said:


> Sorry to say not DCC friendly.
> But they can be made to be friendly with a little work.
> Here is a site that explains it better, if you run into a hick up just yell back and I'll try to help more.
> http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm



Thanks Sean that is what I thought after looking at it more. I know they can be made friendly with some work but really didnt want to do that, but looks like I will have to. I have read Allan's site several times and I am wondering if there might be an easier way to do it other than what he says to do?

I am sure I will be bugging you about getting this thing DCC friendly.

Brad


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## BDP

In the pic below I am wondering if this would work? If I cut just above the frog (in circle) would that isolate the frog to the current that is needed to keep it from shorting? 

In the pics in my op, the middle pic shows the throw that would have a current of either the mainline or diverging route up until the frog which I think would make this work.

If not please let me know.

Brad


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## tankist

Isolate the frog completely. not 2 but *4* cuts

unsolder the conecting bars and drill them off (or just break away. connect point rails with shortened rail joiners, solder in new PCB connecting bar

restore power connectivity

and lastly, never buy those again, lol (kidding  )


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## BDP

tankist said:


> Isolate the frog completely. not 2 but *4* cuts
> 
> unsolder the conecting bars and drill them off (or just break away. connect point rails with shortened rail joiners, solder in new PCB connecting bar
> 
> restore power connectivity
> 
> and lastly, never buy those again, lol (kidding  )


Tankist

Thanks for the pics. Those pics have helped me more than anything I have found on the net. 

The reason I mentioned the 2 cuts was I did see on another forum a guy had the same turnout and he made the 2 cuts as I described and he said it worked for him, but that post is 2 1/2 years old. I have emailed him but he hasnt gotten back to me. 

I do have a question on your bottom pic, is it necessary (and I am sure it is) to connect the rails under the swivel point of the turnout where the rail joiners are or can this be left out or will the rail joiners not carry the current needed? Reason asking is I am still a little rough with the soldering iron and not to confident yet to possible tackle this. I have been working on some older track I have to practice on. 

I like the turnouts and wasnt being alert when I ordered it. I should have went with the Peco isul-frog curved turnout instead. 

Thanks for the help.

Brad


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## tankist

joiners will not carry power 100% reliably, what is not shown on picture is 2 additional connections - from point rail wire to corresponding stock rail. not sure why i did not picture that. ADD: as shown it will have to rely on point rail making good contact with stock rail which really not a given (weathering, dirt etc)

i understand your concern regarding soldering, and you somewhat should be as we are dealing with nickel silver here. it is not rocket science really, but couple conditions need to be met. extra clean area to be soldered and use of flux (rosin will do, no violent soldering acids nesesery for NS). after cleaning the plastic from underneath the rail i used dremel wire brush to polish the point until it shines (REALLLY shines) and heated couple flux chunks over it, then its easy and solder sticks right to it. you also might want to pre-tin the wire to be soldered (i used the phone/network cable one) and as with any soldering make sure the tip of your iron is clean and tinned. 

to gain confidence you can try soldering wires onto some other rail. besides, soldering from underneath is probably the best way to connect your feeder wires anyways.



shinohara turnouts are very nice, specifically the curved one. curved turnout by peco can be bit picky, especially on smaller radius curve


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## BDP

tankist said:


> joiners will not carry power 100% reliably, what is not shown on picture is 2 additional connections - from point rail wire to corresponding stock rail. not sure why i did not picture that. ADD: as shown it will have to rely on point rail making good contact with stock rail which really not a given (weathering, dirt etc)
> 
> i understand your concern regarding soldering, and you somewhat should be as we are dealing with nickel silver here. it is not rocket science really, but couple conditions need to be met. extra clean area to be soldered and use of flux (rosin will do, no violent soldering acids nesesery for NS). after cleaning the plastic from underneath the rail i used dremel wire brush to polish the point until it shines (REALLLY shines) and heated couple flux chunks over it, then its easy and solder sticks right to it. you also might want to pre-tin the wire to be soldered (i used the phone/network cable one) and as with any soldering make sure the tip of your iron is clean and tinned.
> 
> to gain confidence you can try soldering wires onto some other rail. besides, soldering from underneath is probably the best way to connect your feeder wires anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> shinohara turnouts are very nice, specifically the curved one. curved turnout by peco can be bit picky, especially on smaller radius curve



I figured that the current wouldnt carry the current 100% and that is why you have to connect that.

Also, if you dont mind me asking, why do I need to disassemble the throwbar? In your pics they are connected together by a metal strip and on mine it is almost the same way. Just wanting to know.

Better get busy practicing on my soldering. :laugh:

Thanks
Brad


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## tankist

point rails are isolated , notice the cut slot severing the copper layer.


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## BDP

tankist said:


> point rails are isolated , notice the cut slot severing the copper layer.


After looking at it closer yea I do see it. Well if I chop it up I have redone that part of the layout to use regular straight turnouts. :laugh:

Not looking at it closely the first time I thought it was just a metal throw but I do see everything clearly now. If you have bigger pics of what you posted could you email those to me? If so I can pm you my email addy. 

Thanks


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## NIMT

Brad,
I was noticing in you first photo you don't have the typical rear joint. So I believe you won't have to alter this joint.







typical looks like this and thus is connected together by metal strip.







The reason for replacing the front throw bar is to isolate the two rails from each other, factory draw bar has metal connecting the two.







Make cut's in the rails here to isolate the frog and make it power routable.







Final out come is that you end up with this.







Hope this helps, I believe it's the same as Anton but a different view?


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## BDP

NIMT.COM said:


> Brad,
> I was noticing in you first photo you don't have the typical rear joint. So I believe you won't have to alter this joint.
> View attachment 7083
> 
> typical looks like this and thus is connected together by metal strip.
> View attachment 7084
> 
> The reason for replacing the front throw bar is to isolate the two rails from each other, factory draw bar has metal connecting the two.
> View attachment 7085
> 
> Make cut's in the rails here to isolate the frog and make it power routable.
> View attachment 7086
> 
> Final out come is that you end up with this.
> View attachment 7087
> 
> Hope this helps, I believe it's the same as Anton but a different view?


Sean

Thanks for the input. Yea I dont have that additional bar at the rear joint, just at the throw bar.

I will be running 6 and 4 axle modern engines, can I leave the frog isolated without powering it or will I need to? If I have to power it what would be a good route switch to put on it? 

Thanks guys.
Brad


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## tankist

you do not need to power the frog unless you specifically want to for some reason


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## BDP

tankist said:


> you do not need to power the frog unless you specifically want to for some reason


Thanks Anton. I think I will give this a shot. The layout looks better with this turnout vs having a straight one in its place. Would you be willing to shoot me a bigger pics of the ones you posted so I can reference them?


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## NIMT

Brad,
I power every frog, it just makes things run smoother. You might want to run a switcher up the hill to drop off a small load one day!
It depends on which type of switch machine and or controls you use.
I use tortoise slow motion machines and they have contacts built in for power routing.
I do believe Anton uses dual coil switch machines and he has come up with a genius method of adding micro switches to them for this purpose.
I'll refer that subject to him.


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## BDP

NIMT.COM said:


> Brad,
> I power every frog, it just makes things run smoother. You might want to run a switcher up the hill to drop off a small load one day!
> It depends on which type of switch machine and or controls you use.
> I use tortoise slow motion machines and they have contacts built in for power routing.
> I do believe Anton uses dual coil switch machines and he has come up with a genius method of adding micro switches to them for this purpose.
> I'll refer that subject to him.


Sean

As of now I am using all manual switches from Caboose Ind. I like the hands on aspect of the layout. I may at one time switch as I get older but as of now I dont plan on it. I may have a switching unit say an SW1500 which I think would still work without a powered frog in that part of the layout. 

Yea I seen Anton's progress on his layout with all the electrical boards. I don think I could make the case to set it in. LOL If I power the frogs maybe Anton would make the track down state to help me. LOL

Brad


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## NIMT

Just follow Antons picture of the cut's to isolate the frogs to keep the frog as small as possible. Then it should work fine.:thumbsup:


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## tankist

i will try to post bigger pictures of complete conversion later (as i get home)

i did the #4 turnouts which have relatively short frogs so a truck of 4 axle switcher will have one axle powered at a time (not counting the second completely powered truck). curved frog seems bit longer but still i think you should be fine running un-powered. and if you do decide to power it, it is simpler then it might seem, even if you keep them manual.
all you need is a micro-switch, perhaps cannibalized from some old printer, etc
installed under the rail (dig into foam base) or on surface disguised as structure. but it is better done now then later when you have your track down.





PS
it only seems complicated if you don't understand whats going on. it may seem elaborate(and i certainly try to push myself further), but there is no magic happening on my build anywhere. and certainly nothing un-doable or not done by someone else before. 
really.


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## BDP

tankist said:


> i will try to post bigger pictures of complete conversion later (as i get home)
> 
> i did the #4 turnouts which have relatively short frogs so a truck of 4 axle switcher will have one axle powered at a time (not counting the second completely powered truck). curved frog seems bit longer but still i think you should be fine running un-powered. and if you do decide to power it, it is simpler then it might seem, even if you keep them manual.
> all you need is a micro-switch, perhaps cannibalized from some old printer, etc
> installed under the rail (dig into foam base) or on surface disguised as structure. but it is better done now then later when you have your track down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS
> it only seems complicated if you don't understand whats going on. it may seem elaborate(and i certainly try to push myself further), but there is no magic happening on my build anywhere. and certainly nothing un-doable or not done by someone else before.
> really.



Thanks Anton appreciate it.

If I were to use a micro switch how would the power work to the frog? Would I have to connect 2 wires from the switch to the frog, then by hitting the button manually that would switch the polarity of it? This is what gets me confused. I tried following the schematic on the DCC Wiring page but I get confused on how to wire it.

Sorry for the stupid questions.

Brad


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## tankist

mechanically the micro-switch would be actuated by the trow-bar sensing the position of turnout. micro-switches (or any position switches) usually have 3 contacts: Normaly Open (NO), Normaly Closed (NC) and Common (C). common contact will connect to frog, the NO and NC contacts to corresponding stock rail. the chart Sean posted above (msg #11) should make more sence now.

how you going to attach switch to detect turnout position will depend on what switch you have. here is how i approached mine instead of buying the terribly overpriced stock ones (40Cents per turnout is much better then 10$ and i have a pair of them). your instalation will of course differ but i'm sure can be done. when i'm home i will take picture and throw some suggestions on how you could attach to bare shinoharas


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## BDP

tankist said:


> mechanically the micro-switch would be actuated by the trow-bar sensing the position of turnout. micro-switches (or any position switches) usually have 3 contacts: Normaly Open (NO), Normaly Closed (NC) and Common (C). common contact will connect to frog, the NO and NC contacts to corresponding stock rail. the chart Sean posted above (msg #11) should make more sence now.
> 
> how you going to attach switch to detect turnout position will depend on what switch you have. here is how i approached mine instead of buying the terribly overpriced stock ones (40Cents per turnout is much better then 10$ and i have a pair of them). your instalation will of course differ but i'm sure can be done. when i'm home i will take picture and throw some suggestions on how you could attach to bare shinoharas



Thanks Anton that would be very nice of you to do that. I am a sponge right now soaking all this up. I am not an electrician by any means. I know enough to be dangerous. LOL

Any info or sites you can lead me to to purchase the items that I may need would be great also. 

With the impending snow storm I may have a few days to work on this. I am picking up a new soldering iron tonight to replace the one I have and a few other things so I can start the process of laying track.

Brad


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## tankist

not electrician? well, start being one then, lol. quite a usefull thing for this hobby 

for switches you need something similar to this auction, can't find better one at the moment. i think i bought a baggie of 25 pieces for 10$ shipped from china. took 2 weeks to get here though.


or since you need just one or two, why not open up some old printer or CDROM drive and see if it has any (plus lots of other goodies)? and if you don't tend to stockpile old electronics like i do and don't already have bunch of donors laying around - see craiglist "for free" section. people are happy to give away treasures


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## BDP

tankist said:


> not electrician? well, start being one then, lol. quite a usefull thing for this hobby
> 
> for switches you need something similar to this auction, can't find better one at the moment. i think i bought a baggie of 25 pieces for 10$ shipped from china. took 2 weeks to get here though.
> 
> 
> or since you need just one or two, why not open up some old printer or CDROM drive and see if it has any (plus lots of other goodies)? and if you don't tend to stockpile old electronics like i do and don't already have bunch of donors laying around - see craiglist "for free" section. people are happy to give away treasures



Thanks for the link on the switches. I am going to try to use the switch without powering the frog but I am going to use your method if I have any problems that is for sure. 

Thanks for all the help and advice Anton.

Brad


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