# sparking wheels? where do I begin to fix?



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I come across a lot of badly cared for stuff. I have a lionel coke switcher that I thought cleaned uswip fairly well. When I run the switcher the wheels spark. I have cleaned the wheels, pick ups, lubed the eng. Etc... I'm thinking a short in the wiring. How do I start to troubleshoot this problem. I am a novice. Never had any experience with with low voltage stuff. I have a voltage tester and tools just lack the know how to use them. Its an 8473 switcher. The first pics are before cleaning and painting. My track is clean.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Wires are not loose and look to be original.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

And I forgot to mention it is missing a traction tire, could this be the culprit?


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Clean the track with a ScotchBrite pad. Never use steel wool or sand paper. 

You can also use alcohol to clean the grease off of the track.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Track is spotless. Only this switcher sparks. 8 others run fine. Wheels are also clean. Pick up rollers are clean also and seem to have the correct spring in them.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Try cleaning the wheels with a wire wheel. The sparks are usually caused by rust. Or you could just forget about it and run it until it stops sparking. 

BTW, when you get about 100 locos, you are going to stop worrying about a little sparking.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

It sparks a lot. The wheels are clean. Can I just run it for a while? It was probably sitting unrun for years. It does mar the track a bit , I do clean the track after I run the switcher. Don't have 100 locos yet, give me another week( I got real problems!) After this ones fixed or not I have about 12 more to go. Bought a few boxes of old/ newer stuff. It was very neglected but cheap. At least it was cheap untill I had to buy, Parts , track, wire, paint etc


----------



## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

I'd still go over the wheels and rollers with alcohol and maybe a wire brush. I'd be very inclined to suggest a good thorough clean and lube, I did that to one loco and the problem was greatly reduced. High current draw can account for this a well.

Carl


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thanks, cleaned the wheels with a dremel and brass brush. Took the rust off with wd40 then wiped with alcohol and re cleaned with the wire brush. Checked to see if any thing was stuck I. The wheels. Nothing. Everything looks ok. Its driving me nuts. Went over the eng. 3 or 4 times. Maybe I'll put it aside for awhile. Waiting for parts for " the rock " switcher. Hope that goes more smoothly. Thanks for the help. Any other ideas are appreciated.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

When you lubed the loco, did you disassemble the motor? You need to get at some gears and bearings that are inside the gearbox. Also, does it spark the same in each direction? There are some small washers inside the motor that set the end play for the armature. If you missed them, you could have a lot of friction in one direction. This would cause a high current draw and cause sparking. How much voltage does the loco take to run by itself?


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I did disassemble the motor to the best of my ability. The brushes are new ,armature greased. Motor interior cleaned. The gears run fine and are oiled. Maybe I missed something or it was missing from when I received the loco. I will check the specks( hopefully the right ones) tomorrow. The motor is built into the trucks and riveted? I only went as far as disassembling the brush plate? And the drive axel.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Did you remove the armature and lube the worm gear and the bearings on the lower end?


----------



## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

FWIW some units spark more than others. It's been a mystery to me. 

Anyone who has the #50 gang car can attest. Mine put on quite a show in the dark.


----------



## Handyandy (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes, some just like to spark. I've had old locos I've resussitated that sparked quite a bit for awhile, but after some run time and a few more wheel/track cleanings the sparks hardly appear now.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Another thing you can do is to get a couple of 1uf non-polarized capacitors and connect them from the motor brushes to frame ground. This will help in some cases. Personally, I still think it's something to do with the wheels.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just took some more pic, I believe the e unit is missing and someone bypassed it. I looked at the rock eng ( which does not run) and it has an e unit in the back. I assumed the newer rig had the e unit built into the motor. And yes I disassembled everything and clean it well, it had a lot of rust. I did think about missing a spacer or washer, I re checked the box where I had all the parts for it and nothing was there. It could have been taken apart before and some else could have forgotten it. I need to get the trains specs. The last pic is of the rock switchers e unit . That's the peice I think I need.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Is there a book similar to Greenbergs for newer model trains?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, it's called Lionel supplements, here's the base page: Lionel Product Supplements

Here's how to get the individual files, download them all and you'll have the complete library.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Thank you.


----------



## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

I have a similar loco. It is a DT&I and the direction control is the same.

Instead of an e unti, you manually change the direction of the motor. These locos were more of the "value priced" models.

I have not explored adding an e unit to this type of motor. The coil in the field has 2 windings, so it is probably possible.

My limited knowlege of metals is that the loco wheels were made with sintered metal. Powdered metal is pressed into a mold at high pressure. This way, they are able to get some of the casting details for steam locos without the casting and machining expense. Look at the wheels closely and compare them to the wheels of newer cars. I can't comment on newer engines. All of mine are postwar and modern.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Good to know. I did notice the weels had a diffrent look to them. Maybe they have replacement ones?


----------



## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

sjm9911

If you say that the armature/commutator and brush set are in good condition.
And that the track is clean as are the wheels. Plus have good wiring and 
connections. Let take a good look at the pick up roller.

Rollers tend to be more of a problem with being dirty this creates a high
resistance. Hard to clean at best and even harder to test. Most rollers will
pass a resistance test sitting still but on the move they do not make good
contact and start pulling more current. Either sparking wheels or a sparking
roller indicate this as long as the commutator and brushes are not over
heating. Which of course over heating brushes would indicate that brushes
need attention.


Pookybear


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Good idea. I did clean the rollers with the dremil but there could be a crack or something else wrong with them. I think I ordered some(If I got the part # correct) . All is not lost yet! If I can't get it fixed I'll just have to run it on the forth of july.


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Just a stab in the dark, does anyone think this copper wire hitting the coil would affect anything?


----------



## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

Is the sparking between the wheel and track? If so it indicates intermitant contact at the track. If you have calipers make sure al the wheels are the same size. Also, is the axle for the wheels slightly bent? Don


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just checked the wire. And did another test run. I must have bent it in for the pic. Its not touching the coil. Yes the sparking is in the front weels at the track connection. The axel does not look bent. Could the traction tire missing cause the truck to bounce creating a bad connection? No calipers here but I can mesure the tires another way. Thanks


----------



## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

For the sake of comparing, I brought out my MPC era GP-20, similar style to yours as to motor layout, and my 2026 & MPC era 8300. The GP-20 sparks more than the other 2. All have been thoroughly cleaned and lubed. My GP-20 has traction tires installed, and I do not think that would cause the increase in sparking. However, the profile of the wheels is quite different due to the traction grooves. As a means of testing, get some RTV from the local autoparts store and fill the grooves allow RTV to set up for 24 hours. Before it sets, use a straight edge to level off the rtv. It's an easy way to eliminate the wheels on that side as a cause. It likely won't last as long as traction tires, but will serve for our test.

Carl


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I do have a traction tire coming. Should be here in a day or two. I did check the wheels ; all the same diamete. The guage of all the wheels are the same and the trucks are not deformed in any way. I might try swapping out the rollers tomorrow with another car ( if I can find one thet is compatible). The switcher as is on the track does not have significant movement from side to side. It runs rather well. Just sparks a lot. And I appreciate everyone's help here. Thanks


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ok so here's where I'm up to. Went over the specks for the rig( thanks to grj) . Found out I'm missing a cup washer on the rear trucks. It was never there when I took it apart. I also noticed something called a pivot bearing in the front trucks. It seams to act as a spacer between the truck and frame and also allows the truck to spin more freely. The top of one of my pivots was broken. I did not notice it or I wrote it off as cosmetic. I will order these part and put in new rollers and traction tire. Hope this combination of things work. Will update when the parts come in. Thanks.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If there isn't sufficient tension on the pilots, they will bounce and possibly spark excessively.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

So the parts arived. I put new rollers on the rig. The cup washer that arrived was not the correct part , so I built out the rear truck with regular washers. The pivot bearing seams much more complicated so for now I cit a peice of hard plastic to build up the front truck. The sparking is now to a minimum. The new problem is the engines pulling power. It does not have any. It cannot pull four cars. I thinks its the traction tires. I also rebuilt " the rock" same problem tge wheels spin. It almost looks as if the traction tire stretches out and the wheel spins on the inside of it. Is this just old traction tires? Or is there a special way to put them on ( glue , friction spray , etc )??


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I bought a 2023 a few days ago. It has magnetraction on the two powered axles. It will pull more than 20 cars easily. The limitation occurs when a car is pulled off of the track. A 2343 of 2353 with dual motors and magnetraction will probably pull 40 cars. 

I inadvertently ran an experiment about sparking wheels. I bought a 2056 a few days ago, and put it on the track without lubing it. After a few trips around the layout, it started to making the squealing sound typical of a dry bearing, and sparks flew from the wheels and pickup rollers. A quick lube job fixed the problem. BTW, I did not disassemble the loco. There is no need to disassemble most steamers except the ones that have a worm drive: 726, 736, 2020, and a few others.


----------



## NYC 5344 (Dec 26, 2012)

I would get brand new traction tires. That's what I did. I have the same type of loco as a Santa Fe, and it doesn't have much pulling power at all. Without traction tires, it couldn't pull one car. They did, back in the 50s/60s sell a version of these switchers with a weight mounted to the frame. This greatly increased the pulling power of the locomotive. You may want to consider mounting some sort of weight over the drive truck.

Also, mine at least has a 2-position e-unit thing. It isn't exactly a regular e-unit, but it works on the same principle using a solenoid.


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

You can buy stick on lead wheel weights at Harbor Freight. You can cut them with scissors into any shape you need.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I will get new tires but the install on these two look daunting. Servoguy , thanks I do need weight and will stop by there today. As for the engines, I think they are worm drives. The collector plate has the shaft with the gear attached. Also these are Lionels cheeper stock made 1979, 1980. One does not have magnitraction one does. The one that does has other problems . One of the plastic gears is wobbly and most likely needs to be replaced. They were both cleaned and lubed. But the sparking is fixed enough for me the wheels no longer spark. Just sparking a bit from the pick ups. I think that may be normal. Any advice on taking apart the power truck or am I in over my head?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Traction tires should look considerably smaller than the wheels they go on. You'll do a bit of stretching to get them on. As they age, they will get loose and finally they usually peel off. At that point, they're shot, there's no sense in trying to use a tire that has come off on the tracks.


----------



## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Glad to hear the sparking is under control now.

Pookybear


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Anyone ever use bullfrog snot for there traction tires. I saw a few people liked it but they were using smaller guage trains. It would make for fixing the one eng easier. I dont even know where to start if I have to take apart the power trucks.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was unimpressed with BG Snot personally.

What's the exact model of the one that you need to put traction tires onto?


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The 8473 and "the rock " switchers. It looks like the power trucks have to be removed. I think they are held together with some sort of weld or lead. It does not list the connections on the motor parts list. Basically I haven't a clue and would rather not mussel it apart only to not get it back together. I did look up how to change traction tires on the lionel site. I was anticipating a trick or how to take the truck apart. There advice was take it to a lionel dealer.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Don't have one of those to look at, but I don't see any screws to take it apart, that's a bad sign.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

No screws on the rig. Me however feel [email protected]#$#$.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the traction tires just slip through between the outside face of the wheel, and, the inside face of the plastic truck side.

I just tried it with my two single axle drive diesels, no problem at all. I can't see the two axle drive trucks being much different in that regard.

With the sideways axle slop and, the flexibility of the side frames, I can easily get 3/16" clearance, which is more than enough room.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Bwa , the one switcher lookes to be about 3/16th on an inch the other one is about 1/16th of an inch ( and that was with help from a screw driver. I will try it before giving in to taking the truck apart.


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Traction tires will easily slip through a 1/16" gap.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've put them onto diesels with the side frames on, but it's a whole lot easier if you can take the side frames off. 

BWA, it's not just getting the tire through the gap, it's holding it in place while you stretch it around the wheel. It helps to have 17 fingers,


----------



## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It looks like they just clip on to the motor truck somehow?
Must be a way to pop them off if you ever have to replace the other parts behind them?


----------



## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

On my single axle drives, they are rivited to the motor plate.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Yes some type of rivet, almost looks like lead. I need to order more traction tires since I need 4 of them. I am also taking some other things apart at the moment so this will have to wait untill mid week to order. Thanks I will update when I get my tires in. ( I did order one last time but got the # wrong.)


----------



## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Some years ago, I had to replace the idler gear in a motor similar to this one. The original lost a tooth. The motor had a metal side frame. I took the side frame off and drilled and tapped it for 2 screws. I made the gear because there wasn't a good source of things like that back in the 70s. The loco is still all together.

Now to replace a traction tire, I would make some hooks out of heavy duty paper clips and slip the tire on using the hooks. Might take a couple of trys, but it should be easier than disassembling the truck. Getting the truck off of the loco frame is not terribly easy. The two vertical posts of the truck have metal clips and springs on them. The metal clips are not designed to be removed. You can get them off if you are gentle and don't break them.


----------



## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

The clips have been off and on many times allready. Not a prob. I also have replacements. I will try to get the tires on. Some sort of leverage device might be usefull. I have non dexterious hands that are rather large ( my wife would say ape like) It makes working with delicate things tedious. Think frankenstein I picked the wrong hobby. ,


----------



## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

Something like a dental pick would do quite nicely. They are readily available for reasonable money at most automotive stores and even Harbor Freight. Quite handy and useful, you won't regret having them. 

Carl


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Drilling them out and adding screws seems like a good idea. I've seen a number of the MPC locomotive trucks that looked like they were NOT meant to come apart.


----------

