# Track Issues



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

I am new to N scale and am currently laying my atlas code 80 track on a foam trackbed. The issue I keep running into is the front end of my 4-6-2 steam engine will derail at the points on the curve where the two tracks get joined. I can’t seem to get the hop out of the front wheels. The train turns towards the right and the left front seems to jump up and off to the left. Track is level so scratching my head on this one.


----------



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

Here’s a picture of the wheel starting to rid up off the rail.


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Look straight down at the track.
Look for mis-alignment.
The rail joiners do not gaurantee alignment.
The wheel flanges catch on the mis-alignment.

p.s. Go back, edit the post and correct spelling errors to help my understanding of your problem. Please and Thank you.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Some things to check: is this happening at the beginning of a curve (on initial turn-in)? If so, you may have a kink in the track at the joint. Flex track can often kink if the the joint is at the beginning of a curve. Smoothing out the kink is the fix. You also might need an easement if the turn-in is abrupt.

Is the track level side to side at this point?

Is it in gauge? Are the pilot wheels in gauge? Use an NMRA Standards Gauge to check.

Is the lock's pilot spring loaded to the center, forcing the wheels off to the outside of the curve? If so, you may need to add weight to the pilot, or reduce the force of the spring.

Hope that helps.


----------



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

Thank you for the feedback. I made some edits. I have checked the track and it all lines up. It enters into a 9 3/4 radius right-hand turn. When it gets to the end of the first 5-inch track curve, it then jumps when it meets the beginning of the next 5inch 9 3/4 curve.


----------



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

Thank you for the advice. I do not believe that the pilot has a spring attached to it. The front trucks move pretty easily and float up and down a lot. No flex track is involved. The curve is made up of 6 5inch 9 3/4 radius curves. After the first piece of track, where it connects to the next curve in the line of 6, it jumps off. I tried replacing the coupling holding the tracks together. No luck.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Do you have a top view of that rail joint?


----------



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

Here is a couple pictures. The first is where I have the most issues from a top view. The second is the very next part of the corner where the train hops again when going through the track joiners. The third is a down the track view of the first issue area.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Does the same thing happen when the locomotive is coming into the curve from the opposite direction?

Have you been able to determine if the wheel flange is riding up on the side of the rail joiner?


----------



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

MichaelIE, the train has no issues coming the opposite direction. 

When I run it at a very slow speed, I can see the front outside wheel ride up and onto the rail before it eventually slips back on. When going faster at optimal speed, it will either hop or ride up and off the rail. 

I thought maybe it was the track joiner so I replaced it with no luck. Should I try and file the track joiner down?


----------



## bl665 (Oct 3, 2019)

cturmon said:


> Here is a couple pictures. The first is where I have the most issues from a top view. The second is the very next part of the corner where the train hops again when going through the track joiners. The third is a down the track view of the first issue area.


The last picture on this post. If you look at the left rail (the one that has the bigger gap in the rail joiner).

right at the rail joiner if you blend your eyes on the top and bottom of the left rail it looks as if the left rail is dropping down. (right where the rail joiner is of course) 

I would suggest to try and get some painters tape and portion it down the rail on the left side between the rail joiner point. That would be to try and bring it up or make that side of the track rise since its on a bank. Bank it towards the way its turning. Pretty much like a freeway but not as drastic. I would add a few layers at a time until you reached desired height where it doesn't de rail.

The gap in the rail joiner doesn't help either but you could still get a train across it. you could add solder to the gap. fill it up and then use a dremel to sand the shape you want which wouldn't take to long


you running the train the other direction IMO is not making it derail because it easier going downhill to the left rather than uphill on a bank.

This is my opinion. Looks good so far ! :smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## Chaostrain (Jan 27, 2015)

Looking really close at the pictures it looks like the outside uphill rail has a very slight flare to the inside. I would say try sanding/filing it down. If you can remove the track it would be easier. Just do a little bit then test it and repeat until the train runs through fine. You might even be able to feel it running your finger back and forth on the inside of the rail. I had that issue a few times when I was doing my N scale layout. It drove me nuts until I figured it out.


----------



## bl665 (Oct 3, 2019)

Chaostrain said:


> Looking really close at the pictures it looks like the outside uphill rail has a very slight flare to the inside. I would say try sanding/filing it down. If you can remove the track it would be easier. Just do a little bit then test it and repeat until the train runs through fine. You might even be able to feel it running your finger back and forth on the inside of the rail. I had that issue a few times when I was doing my N scale layout. It drove me nuts until I figured it out.


:smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos::smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## cturmon (Oct 28, 2019)

I tried the suggestion of sanding the inside of the rail. That has seem to help and solve my issue for the time being. I appreciate the help. I was starting to think my steam engine couldn’t handle the tight corners.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Rail joints*



cturmon said:


> MichaelIE, the train has no issues coming the opposite direction.
> 
> When I run it at a very slow speed, I can see the front outside wheel ride up and onto the rail before it eventually slips back on. When going faster at optimal speed, it will either hop or ride up and off the rail.
> 
> I thought maybe it was the track joiner so I replaced it with no luck. Should I try and file the track joiner down?


cturmon;

I don't think filing the "rail joint" if you mean the actual rail joiner, which you called a "coupling" will help. [Note: I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to understand exactly what part you are referring to.]
However, if you mean "rail joint" literally, meaning the junction where ends of two rails butt up against each other, filing that might help. You can file the tops of the two rails down slightly right where they meet. Also file the tops inward from both sides. You should end up with the tops of the rail ends forming slightly rounded "nubs" rather than the original sharp right angles. This may help the front wheels slip from one section of track onto the next without climbing. 

You answered MichaelE's question "Does the loco's front truck derail when the train is coming from the other direction?" with "The train has no issues when coming from the other direction." Both the question, and your answer to it, can possibly be interpreted two different ways.

1) The loco has been picked up, and then set back on the track with the front of the loco pointed the opposite way. This is what I think MichaelE was asking, and quite possibly what your answer meant.

Or just maybe;

2) The loco is being run in reverse. The tender would get to any given track joint first, and the problematic front truck would pass that joint last.

If it's #2 (the loco is running in reverse), then that means the front truck is now being pulled instead of pushed. Pulled is a whole lot easier. It's not surprising that the pilot truck behaves better when being pulled along.

On the other hand, if it's #1 then the front truck is still being pushed, but in the opposite direction around the loop, (clockwise instead of counter-clockwise) That is a different animal. It would mean that something about that rail joint is causing derailments directionally, which would be pretty weird. 
I think you also said that this front truck problem happens at several/all rail joints, is that correct?
If so, and if the front truck had problems with nearly every joint when going clockwise, and no problems crossing all the same joints counter-clockwise, that's beyond weird, and well into the twilight zone! 

There are many possible causes of this problem. Some have already been suggested. The wheels, or the track, or both, may be out of gage. To find out you need to get an NMRA track/wheel gage. You can order one from www.modeltrainstuff.com It's the wisest $12 you will ever spend. The gage can check many things and is an essential tool for any model railroad. 

Your 9-3/4" radius curves (the tightest In N-scale, equivalent to an 18" radius in HO-scale) may be too tight for that locomotive. You might buy a piece of flex track and try the same loco on wider curves.
"Easements" were suggested. This is simply a section of gentler curve between the straight track, and the tight curve. You can do a simple version of an easement by getting some 19" radius curved sections, and maybe some 11" radius sections too. Each transition from straight track to curved should start with a 19" radius curved section, then an 11" radius section, and then the 9-3/4" main curve. The same should be done at the other end 9-3/4" then 11" then 19" then straight. There are other things possible but let's start with these.

good luck;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

Since we're getting pretty deep into terminology, while trying to understand each other, I've attached a sort of dictionary of model railroad terms, which you can use to look up the names of model railroad items. 

View attachment Model Railroad Terminology 3.pdf


----------



## DavidJones (Nov 21, 2019)

*Someone mentioned adding weight to the front trucks*

any ideas on how to do it? With my ongoing track problems, I've left it alone for the moment, but I find getting the steamers front track to follow the curve is almost impossible. The main and trailing wheels are fine on those curves. I didn't know whether a different spring or adding weight is better (putting a different spring in gives me the willies- everything is SO TINY on these)


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Your track is mis-aligned.
With N scale these minute problems can easily derail a pilot truck.

A couple of ways to fit this.
1. Push the offending rail into perfect alignment and spike it down. then add CA glue.

2. Use a small needle nose pliers from the top and bend the last 1/4" of rail into alignment.

3. Hold rails in perfect alignment and solder the joint (practice on spare track first using good soldering iron and heat sinks.


----------



## DavidJones (Nov 21, 2019)

And turnouts that short. Some 'vintage' kato's I picked up at a train show. No, the wheels aren't contacting the opposite point going through. Too easy for my train. Debating about buying new ones and replacing them- its not the cost, its that removing and replacing turnouts can make a mess of trackwork that is already working fine


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Front truck problem*



DavidJones said:


> any ideas on how to do it? With my ongoing track problems, I've left it alone for the moment, but I find getting the steamers front track to follow the curve is almost impossible. The main and trailing wheels are fine on those curves. I didn't know whether a different spring or adding weight is better (putting a different spring in gives me the willies- everything is SO TINY on these)


 DavidJones;

Here's something you can try. 

1) Lay a light-colored terry cloth towel flat across the top of your table or workbench.

2) Use weights, (bricks, heavy books etc.) to pin down the four corners of the towel. You have just created a parts-retaining work surface. The weights are to keep the towel from slipping off the table.

3) Remove the front truck. They are typically fastened with a single screw. 

4) Try running the locomotive without the front truck, just to confirm that the truck is the only problem. Not also your track, the other wheels, or anything else. Hopefully the loco will breeze through all the track without problems.

5) You should now have the front truck, its mounting screw, and the push-down spring, sitting on the towel. Use that NMRA gage I recommended to check the gage of the front truck's wheels. If they don't match the "wheels" notches cut into one side of the gage, you can adjust them by gently twisting and pulling them wider or pushing them closer, as needed, until they match the gage. NOTE: This is an extremely important first step. If the wheels are "out-of-gage" then any further fixes will be ineffective. 

6) Once you have the wheels properly adjusted, check how much/little they can be pushed side-to-side. If there is hardly any space between the inside surfaces of the wheels and the block that holds them, that could be the problem. The wheels need that side-to-side motion to negotiate your layout's tight curves. If there is very little room, you can add more by pulling the wheels apart until they can be removed from the block, and then filing the block's width down a bit.

8) Actually adding weight to the front truck, is probably impractical. If the factory block is made of plastic, and not metal, then a replacement block could be made from metal to add some weight. But, depending on how the wheels are insulated, doing that might cause a short circuit. If all four wheels have plastic centers and none are electrically connected to Their axles, then it could work. 

9) Perhaps a little more practical would be replacing the spring. If you have a ball-point pen with a retractable tip, that could furnish the spring. Pen springs are too long for what we need , but they can be cut to length with diagonal cutting pliers. Another possibility would be to order a second spring from the manufacturer, and thread the two springs into each other, effectively doubling their power.

10) When you have the front truck re-mounted with its screw, check to see how far/little it can pivot around the screw. Are there any obstructions that limit its pivot range? Coupler, pilot, (aka "cow catcher") or anything else?

By the way, what else have you done to fix the problem? Have you added easements, or rounded off the rail ends? Have you soldered the rail joints? Of course whether you do any of these things is your choice, but any of them might help.

Any bottom of a locomotive repairs are much easier with a locomotive cradle. (see photo) Mine is simply made of three lumber scraps lined with felt. A cradle can also be cut out of a piece of foam rubber. There are also commercial versions available. Micro Mark is one source.

good luck;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Replacing turnouts*



DavidJones said:


> And turnouts that short. Some 'vintage' kato's I picked up at a train show. No, the wheels aren't contacting the opposite point going through. Too easy for my train. Debating about buying new ones and replacing them- its not the cost, its that removing and replacing turnouts can make a mess of trackwork that is already working fine


DavidJones;

Kato turnouts are good, but Peco turnouts are even better, in my opinion. Peco turnouts have a long, & widespread, reputation for not causing derailments. Their newest type, the "Unifrog", is "DCC compatible" in that the frog is electrically insulated from the rest of the rails. Their "Insulfrog" plastic frog turnout, and their "Electrofrog" metal frog turnout are both excellent too. Considering all the problems you've already had, I think you deserve something that works reliably, right out of the box. 
One thing you may not like about them is that they are not always a drop-in fit. When people replace Atlas snap track turnouts with Peco (or anything else) they find out that those Atlas snap track turnouts have a unique geometry. No other turnout fits without taking up a little track near the turnout location, and replacing it with short pieces of flex track. Whether this same situation would happen when replacing Kato turnouts with Peco , or not, I don't know. It is something to check on though.

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## Againtrains (Mar 6, 2016)

*Track problems*

I have some curves on my layout that I changed because I had bought Cab Forward. One set of curves were to tight and went into a switch. So I enlarge the curves. The front truck of the Cab Forward would rise up and jump the track. I tried 3 different peco switches, 4 or 5 atlas switches. It would not do it ever time. Finally I found my problem. I hold the track to the cork roadbed with spikes. I had dropped couple of spikes close to the lead in on the turnout. So sometimes the loose spike would move just enough to affect the front truck(not every time). So try looking for something odd, or just slightly not right.


----------



## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

*cturmon;*
Is that the only steam loco you have?
.


----------



## Againtrains (Mar 6, 2016)

videobruce said:


> Is that the only steam loco you have?


Nope, I have a K4 pacific and a shay too. I now use the Cab Forward to test new track that is laid out. If it runs good, then anything else will be good.


----------



## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

My bad, I was referring to the OP.


----------

