# 1033 transformer that has a drop in output



## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Hi. I've been blundering around the old internet trying to find an answer to my problem without success. I have a 1955 Lionel 027 set with a 1033 transformer that the previous owners of my house left behind 40 years ago. It used to run great but after sitting for 20+ years it has an issue. It will run for a couple of minutes,slow down and then stop. I switched transformers to an ancient pre-WW2 Jefferson and it runs fine but that transformer has no whistle control. Is it a circuit breaker issue? Rectifier? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Could be a loose wire on the cord or inside. It only drops when running or when you hit the whistle?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd check out the circuit breaker in the 1033. The old Jefferson sounds like it has a rectifier issue.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

No, the whistle works fine. The train just slows down (usually at the farthest point from the terminal section) and then stops and the lights get quite dim. The cord looks ok and the U-A voltage is just about 15. 

The Jefferson works fine, it just doesn't have a button or lever to blow the whistle.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The train slowing down like that is probably not the transformer, but rather track conductivity. Time to check the pins between each track section. I'd also run a couple of power drops to other sections of the track.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

If the 1033 runs the trains OK for a few minutes, but then they slow down and then stop, it sounds to me like something is overheating/expanding/causing increased resistance in the transformer. Especially if the trains run fine with the other transformer. Does it get hot to the touch after a few minutes when the trains slow down? The top should be easy to remove on the 1033 (it is on my 1034). I would remove the top and take a look at the inside. Anything appear to be damaged/toasted? Any frayed or loose wires?


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

*Follow up on 1033 transformer issue*

Thanks for the feedback.

I have brand new Fastrak which I bought thinking the problem might be the old 027 tracks. The issue remains. And the train runs fine with the Jefferson transformer.

No visible issues inside the transformer; no loose wires, scorch marks or fraying of the cord that I could see.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The one part that is likely to be a trouble spot in the 1033 would be the circuit breaker. If you jumper than and do a test run, I'll bet you don't get any power drop.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks. I'll try bypassing the breaker and see what happens.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Would a thermal circuit breaker still keep the lights on dimly? Seems like it sounds more like a thermal problem with the transformer, but it also seems like that would result in the transformer getting hot. I probably ought to not comment on this as its been years since I had a o27 train. I vaguely recall the circuit breaker wrapped with wire such that it heated a bimetal strip then caused the contacts to open.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The breaker will do some really odd things, including just drop a lot of voltage due to poor contacts. It's probably the most troublesome part of that transformer.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Sure hope its the breaker, tough repairing a transformer! There are some options on replacing the circuit breaker at least.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

I replaced the circuit breaker, disk resistor and power cord to no avail. I measured the max voltage at the track from the 1033 (13.8V) and the train barely moved. Then I hooked up the Jefferson transformer and set the voltage to 13.8 at the track and the train ran like a champ. Any ideas?
Thanks.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Sounds like some resistance between the transformer and the output terminals (assuming your using the wire at the terminals of the 2 transformers. Essentially at no load the voltage will be about the same independent of any resistance in the line, but as you generated load, the voltage will drop. What's a "disk" resistor?


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

The track is barely used fastrak. Just swapped the leads from the terminal track between transformers so there isn't anything different except the power source.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

The disk resistor is for the whistle control. I replaced it with a diode per several suggestions in various on-line discussions for improving the transformer's performance while I was in there. Don't think that has any bearing on my problem.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd suspect either the wiper arm or the contacts for the whistle. Clean them up and see if that changes. These are simple transformers, not much to go wrong. Here's a wiring diagram of the 1033. I've identified the three most likely places for voltage drops when you're drawing current.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I can't see where replacing the whistle resistor with a diode will do much of anything, given John's diagram, but he does show some very likely suspects all of which are mechanical in nature. And best of all, they can be excluded from having any effect and an external circuit breaker and reverse switch used by running a jumper from 5 to a new external terminal to replace the U terminal.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

The first thing I did was clean all the contacts and the wiper arm. I jumped the breaker and that had no effect. Then I replaced it- no effect. It seems very odd that with the same voltage reading at the track the train runs well with the Jefferson transformer and barely runs at all with the Lionel. Clearly, I'm missing something.

I mis-identified the part I replaced with a diode. It was the RECTIFIER disk. Again, probably not related to my power issue.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Well rectifier disk makes more sense, and replacing what was probably and old selenium rectifier with a "modern" technology one is a good idea, but probably not the problem. If you put a jumper from 5 to the track wire that was going to U and it still did not work, I'm back to it being a transformer problem. You did check that the voltage varies as you mess with the throttle when you jumpered it? I think we should wait for John's response, he's the real expert!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The only other point I can see being a problem is the slider on the transformer. There is a spring loaded connection to the pivot point, I've had those have a high resistance. I had a KW that the hub of one of the handles was getting HOT, I dropped a couple of drops of Deoxit D5 on it, and it was instantly fixed. 

The way to track this down is to put a decent load on the transformer, say around 2 amps. Then just measure the voltage drop across each of the potential problem points. When you see significant voltage or more than .1-.2 volts, you are probably looking at the problem area.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

The voltage does vary as the throttle control is moved, but it maxes out at 13.8V (with the U and A posts used). Again, with the Jefferson transformer's output measuring 13.8V at the track the train runs ok.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

gunrunnerjohn - that's beyond my meager capabilities to test.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Does it measure 13.8V when you have a train on the tracks presenting a load on the transformer?


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Yes, it does.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's a mystery, I think I'd have to see that to diagnose what is going on.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks. I'm glad to know I'm not alone. I know a retired Bell Labs engineer/physicist who could probably diagnose it in 2 minutes but would continue testing and lecturing for half a day.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What's to say I wouldn't do the same thing?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Did I understand this correctly TM that you measure 13.8 volts (U - A) coming out of the 1033 with a train on the track? And it doesn't move? And with the Jefferson when you measure 13.8v the train is running? Wait U to A or U to B. Isn't the common terminal B and the track center U? Or does connecting to A instead of B make it 5 volts with the throttle at zero and 16v with the throttle at max. Maybe just measuring the voltages across the various terminal would help. Particularly B to A.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Apparently, the transformer is working properly, it just doesn't put out quite enough voltage to power the loco. With the loco (2065) on the tracks the voltage measures 12.5 -12.8 at the power source; the loco wants at least 13V to run reasonably well; 14V is much better. Don't know why the 1030 used to be sufficient and isn't now. Perhaps a 60 year old engine is like its owner- it takes a little more to get going now.

Thanks to all who replied.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

One non electrical possible cause for your 
locos 'need' for 14 plus volts. Have you
tried cleaning and lubricating the inside
works? There could be gelled lube, no lube,
or dirt that may be causing a heavier then
normal drag on the motor.

Don


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks for the response. There doesn't appear to be any crud gumming up the works. I had it looked at by the local Lionel dealer/service guys a couple of years ago (these have only get out for Christmastime) and they did a Jiffy Lube and ran it on their layout and said it was fine. When I got it home I still had the same issue. Now my grandson is old enough to run them so I want to put them up permanently. As long as I have a transformer that puts out 15V I'm in good shape.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

There is obviously still something wrong apparently
associated with the Lionel transformer since you say
the train runs normally using the Jefferson.

The odd thing is that you get a 13.8 voltage from both
but with that current from the Lionel the train does
not run as it should. 

This is telling me that there is possibly poor conductivity
between the Lionel terminals and the track. Are you
using the same wires and track connections when using
the Jefferson as is used by the Lionel?

GRJ

Is it possible the Lionel has some problem that limits
it's wattage output yet puts out 13.8 volts.? He says
he's replaced the breaker.

Don


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Same everything except the transformer. I borrowed another 1033 and it behaved exactly the same way.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

13 volts to run?!?! What's it pulling? That's way too much! Ok, is the track clean? Scrubbed with a scotch brite pad and Wiped with alcohol? Check to see if the wheels on the eng. Turn freely. If not something is binding or it needs new grease. Check the inside, you need to clean it and make sure the brushes and comuter plate is clean. Next is check the wires and build for a short. Brittle wires might need replacing, or a wire may be shorting out on the shell. Look for marks or try a price of tape on the inside of the shell over the wires. Also, light bulb wires might be hitting something. At 13 volts it should be moving fast, start up at around 6 . Post results , take pictures.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I think it's in the Engine not the transformer. Since the same thing happens on 2 different 1033's. You should not need even 12 volts to get the engine running. Must be something in the engine that needs the higher voltage to get started. Maybe the reverser is a little dirty or corroded. I think a good cleaning is in order, then some contact cleaner, that GRJ mentioned on any moving or electrical contact points.


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

OK, cleaned it again and pulled the brushes and dressed them. Put it back together, lubed it and it ran worse than before. So I put more lube on and a drop of oil on the axles and it runs almost satisfactorily. Still a bit sluggish with a tender and four light cars. I'll run it some more and see if it improves any. Any one know why the voltage drops when the loco starts(from 13.8V to 12.8V)? It seems to me in my ignorance that the transformer should continue to deliver constant voltage to the track.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You can experience the slight voltage drop you see
when a load is applied to the tracks. Have you not
noticed house lights dim momentarily when the A/C compressor
starts?

Don


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

Yes, but it's only for a second or two and the lights are back to normal. This drops and doesn't come back.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The drop says there is resistance somewhere and as the current increases the voltage drops. Its somewhere its just a matter of time until its found, or we go batty. I know were driving you crazy, this problem now has to be solved so we can all go back to getting the Christmas trains running


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

tmcaneny said:


> Yes, but it's only for a second or two and the lights are back to normal. This drops and doesn't come back.


True. The current draw when heavy duty electric
motor starts (when lights dim) is way more than it's running current (when brightness returns). It has special high
current capacitors to help it start.

But your loco motor continually draws current thus the
continued voltage drop. Older motors draw more than those
made currently, sometimes due to much more
powerful magnets.

Don


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## tmcaneny (Nov 22, 2016)

I ran it some more today and it runs ok (still not like I remember) on the new Fastrak loop I bought. Now I'll clean the old tracks with switches and remote controls and see how it works.

Thanks, and it will be running around the Christmas Tree!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Also oil the rolling stock axels , if there binding it will cause drag on the train.


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## emmetd (Aug 1, 2012)

current and voltage are two different things. voltage is sorta like volume.
current is amperage which is sorta like pressure. get an ac ammeter(0-5) and connect it in
series with one leg of the track feed. see what you get.


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