# Foam board contains fire retardant and very toxic. Does anyone know a base I can use that I can carve into that is not toxic.



## fvernese (Dec 23, 2021)

I am starting a 4 x 6 ft. n scale layout and I have the plywood down, but I need to have a base on top of the plywood that I can put tracks on and carve into that is non toxic. I like the foam board but it can be very toxic while working with it and or over time can leach fumes even if painted I think. Some contain styrene and others contain fire retardant's such as hexabromocylodeane which is extremely toxic. I can use Woodland Scenics risers and inclines but they are very expensive so just wondering if anyone knows an alternative base that is cheaper and non toxic?
Thank you


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

I would think that as the boards are fully cured, it isnt that big of a problem. Spray foam, that is a diffrent story. And if you paint it ( encapsulate) I dont think you have to worry about it much. For comparison, all couches, chairs with cushions, beds, etc are made with foam and probably have the same if not more of these things. This is only my opinion.


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## johnfm3 (Sep 30, 2016)

You can always use wood bed, cork for track, an plaster for terain. I agree with SJM, I wouldnt worry about it. To many people have been using foam board for far too long to not have reported your concerns several times by now. During sculpting, wear a respirator.


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## fvernese (Dec 23, 2021)

Very appreciate your responses

Thank you


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## GNfan (Jun 3, 2016)

johnfm3 said:


> During sculpting, wear a respirator.


Use at least a N95 respirator when cutting or shaping,and be clean-shaven. Have adequate ventilation.
I was once a HAZMAT worker.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

GNfan said:


> Use at least a N95 respirator when cutting or shaping,and be clean-shaven. Have adequate ventilation.
> I was once a HAZMAT worker.


If you're using a hot wire cutter, I would agree. Otherwise, not really an issue.

For the OP, don't let the "lawyer language" worry you. Most companies will put these warnings as an attempt to avert legal liability, not because the average person has to be aware of it. 

The toxicity warning are grossly overrated.. You're building a layout with it, not eating it for dinner. There is no such thing as a polymerization hydrocarbon chain (i.e, plastic) that is completely free of toxic substances. If the mere presence of a toxic substance worries you, time to find another hobby, because any wiring or electrical product, including locomotives, probably contains lead in the solder, and that's hellaciously more toxic than most other stuff. Personally, I have never heard of foam releasing toxic gasses after it's initial manufacturing. The stuff is used to insulate homes; if off-gassing were a significant issue, the stuff would have been banned years ago. 

Cutting foam is a different matter. If you're aggressively shaping it so that you're flinging small particles everywhere, then an N95 mask is a good idea. And if you're using a hot wire cutter, definitely do this outdoors or wear an actual respirator when you do it.


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## fvernese (Dec 23, 2021)

Thanks again, and I have worked on Superfund sites as well, which is why I probably overthink things like this. I will wear my N95 mask when cutting the foam board. I guess everyone has one these days unfortunately. 
Also what do you think of the Woodland Scenics risers and inclines on top of the foam board? I just finished their video they say use min 2 inch risers on all the track, roads etc. than the inclines. The foam board should take the place of all the risers and I can just use their inclines so it may not be that expensive this way. 
Regards to all.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

fvernese said:


> Thanks again, and I have worked on Superfund sites as well, which is why I probably overthink things like this. I will wear my N95 mask when cutting the foam board. I guess everyone has one these days unfortunately.
> Also what do you think of the Woodland Scenics risers and inclines on top of the foam board? I just finished their video they say use min 2 inch risers on all the track, roads etc. than the inclines. The foam board should take the place of all the risers and I can just use their inclines so it may not be that expensive this way.
> Regards to all.


You ever work on any of NJ's superfund sites?
I used to dump waste chemicals in NJ, all legal with Government manifests.
The chemicals were supposed to be 90% water but let me tell you........it wasn't!

One dump in Jersey, I went back 20 years later with a load of Caustic. The dump was all gone shipped west, it was all level, the whole mountain of it. I had one of the first loads in there.

The Army took over to get it out and filter all the ground water, some of the guys spent their entire service life working it. 20 years, I still think they are there today. I think that site was #7 on the list.
Ironic, I dumped there then 20 years later bring back corrosives to clean it up.


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## fvernese (Dec 23, 2021)

Yes I was environmental engineer with URS corporation out of PA and worked superfund and other contaminated sites in PA, New Jersey and New York. Cleaned a number of sites some of which will be cleaning water forever. I am retired now so have time for trains which I always loved since very young. I had O scale years ago and used all wood throughout with risers etc. and had room for large layouts. Never used foam before, but don't have the room so I am trying n scale now. It is much harder as trains and everything are so small but you can put a lot in small layout which I like. 
Thanks and Regards


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Although I out down foam board I'm not sold on it either. If I do this again I believe I'd try the approach where the track bed is put up with pegs some inches above the base board that holds it all up, kind of float track bed approach. Once that's all together, cork say then track, wiring, power, test.

Then you've got the gaps between to do your terrain. Here you can use wire or any kind of spanning material to make the land forms and cover in various ways.

Since I've only seen this but not done it ... Take it as an idea more than a suggestion.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Severn said:


> Although I out down foam board I'm not sold on it either. If I do this again I believe I'd try the approach where the track bed is put up with pegs some inches above the base board that holds it all up, kind of float track bed approach. Once that's all together, cork say then track, wiring, power, test.
> 
> Then you've got the gaps between to do your terrain. Here you can use wire or any kind of spanning material to make the land forms and cover in various ways.
> 
> Since I've only seen this but not done it ... Take it as an idea more than a suggestion.


There are almost as many ways to do scenery as there are modelers. There is no one best approach; it's all in what each individual wants to do. Personally, I'd find that far too fussy, but that's me.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

fvernese said:


> Thanks again, and I have worked on Superfund sites as well, which is why I probably overthink things like this. I will wear my N95 mask when cutting the foam board. I guess everyone has one these days unfortunately.
> Also what do you think of the Woodland Scenics risers and inclines on top of the foam board? I just finished their video they say use min 2 inch risers on all the track, roads etc. than the inclines. The foam board should take the place of all the risers and I can just use their inclines so it may not be that expensive this way.
> Regards to all.


The thing to remember about Woodland Scenics is that they are trying to sell product. Teaching you how to do scenery / lay track is secondary. Using the risers accomplishes the same thing as using foam and cutting down to make streams, ditches, etc. I did it once on part of a layout; I wasn't sold on the technique. Went back to foam panels. The inclines are a different matter. It's definitely a time-saver to have pre-cut inclines. Even better are the incline starters. They are a series of 2' long wedges; each one elevates the track by a certain amount (depending on the slope). You use this with other foamboards to create inclines, but there is less waste because all of the pieces can be used to start the incline.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Those incline starter sets are very nice and not that expensive.
You get a easy way to get precise grades, well worth the cost IMO.
One inch foam board, some 1/2" WS risers and the 2% incline starters is what I used.

Magic


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I second the “don’t worry” point, if you’re using the house insulation stuff.

Carving is always messy.
Fumes from hot wire cutters is toxic.
Major rip cuts are best done with a fine tooth saber saw at high speed. You can get very tight radius, no waste to speak of, not much debris, and the result looks like giant jigsaw pieces.

But if using foam will keep you up at night; you could put all the track on risers, and screen (for windows/doors) topped with plaster or something. In any event, you don’t really need plywood everywhere, 1x2s every 18-24 inches will support 2 inch thick foam board just fine. Foam boards can warp though which surprised me, so glue it & weight it like you would track.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I used the ws risers and they certainly work. Of course you can make your own. I was just lazy.


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## fvernese (Dec 23, 2021)

Yep I ordered the risers and inclines from woodland scenics will send photo when I install them.
Thanks again for all the input I really appreciate it
Regards to all


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

i used two inch thick blue foam for inclines and risers .. i cut them up with a homemade hot wire cutter ..
worked quite well..


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

I bought the ws wire cutter before I knew what nichrome wire was. It worked for about a five minutes. Then I rigged up a homebrew with the remnants using chopsticks, poly glue, an old 16 v DC transformer that had decent amps and other little bits to get it all together. This worked pretty good on the pink foam. Then it broke, then I found a serrated knife that worked ok.

If I was really really going to commit to foam I would make or buy much better hot wires. Otherwise the knife works. It's even better on the white kind ..

I cover it all anyway with sculpa mold or similar so it doesn't have to be perfect.

I think where foam might really shine is set details like brick walls or other structures where with a lot delicate work and various coverings one get astoundingly good results...


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Severn said:


> I bought the ws wire cutter before I knew what nichrome wire was. It worked for about a five minutes. Then I rigged up a homebrew with the remnants using chopsticks, poly glue, an old 16 v DC transformer that had decent amps and other little bits to get it all together. This worked pretty good on the pink foam. Then it broke, then I found a serrated knife that worked ok.
> 
> If I was really really going to commit to foam I would make or buy much better hot wires. Otherwise the knife works. It's even better on the white kind ..
> 
> ...


My first attempt at bridge piers from scrap pieces of foam board. I used clay carving tools to make the mortar lines. My bricks are way too big, but I got a good proof of concept.


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Fantastic and exactly what I was talking about... There's tons of vids out there that illustrates various techniques.

Here's one I ran into that mostly seems to do WW2 scene and tanks but has two or three or so foam based builds that I think look great that maybe with practice even I could come close enough to that I'd feel ok about it.

Now I don't know anything about this guy or anything just think the foam builds look good.



https://youtube.com/c/NightShiftScaleModels


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## fvernese (Dec 23, 2021)

I just started the layout using Kato track and it is now 4 x 8 foot and have two loops so far with the start of a siding off the inner loop to the north. I will put all track on 2 inch risers or foam (have not decided yet) and than inclines on them. The photo just shows one incline on the outer loop which will eventually be put on the 2 inch risers or foam (just want to test track layout now). I will add other sections but I just wanted to test this starting section out and it is not working properly as the power on the inner loop appears to be controlled by the outer loop crossing. I know it is probably very simple but I am a novice. Can someone tell me where I went wrong?
The problem I am having is that the outer loop works just fine. However when I set turnouts to cross over to the inner loop the train has no problem crossing over but than just stops after the inner loop turnout. If I run the inner loop the train works fine around the loop until it gets to the turnout than stops. I have the two power feeds one on each loop half way around the curve to the right of the turnouts. However it seems the power on the inner loop is being controlled by the outer loop turnout. These are Kato turnouts, 
Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Is it always the same turnout regardless of direction of travel? It sounds like it’s isolated, but if both loops have feeders that shouldn’t be the case. 
If you swap the offending turnout with the one at the back, you could see if the problem follows it or not, which might be helpful in diagnosing if the cause is the turnout or an adjacent piece of track? We could narrow down if it's the turnout itself or something else.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Are you sure both your track feeds have the same polarity? It sounds like your turnouts may be isolated, and the polarity reversed, so as soon as a train bridges the gap you have a short. One of your turnouts sounds like it's set to be power-routing (IOW, the electrical,path follows the points).


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

I agree with CT Valley, it sounds like the polarity of your two loops are opposite. If you’re using feeder track sections, be sure the two wires are coming out on the same sides of the loops, either both inside or both outside. It doesn’t matter which, as long as they’re both the same. It’s easy to get one of those installed backwards from the other. 
If you’re using powered Unijoiners, be sure the same color wire is going to the same rail, for example, blue to inside rail and white to outside rail on both loops.


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## Bogomips622 (Nov 14, 2021)

fvernese said:


> Thanks again, and I have worked on Superfund sites as well, SNIP
> Regards to all.


Superfund. That's a word I haven't heard in a long time. My dad was involved in Superfund back in the '80s.
Bill


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