# Should certain cars be used/not used with a steam locomotive?



## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

I've recently purchased a steam locomotive as my first piece as I enter the world of model railroads. After that I got a DCC controller and next I'll need to get track and some cars. 

This afternoon I picked out a few train cars on an online store but then hesitated because I didn't know if they would be correct for the steam locomotive I ordered. Obviously it doesn't _really_ matter, they'll still roll down the track just fine. But, if I did have someone over to see my track someday, and they happened to know trains, would it seem strange to have an old steam locomotive pulling certain more modern train cars? 

"Why is that locomotive from 1904 pulling that Well Car which wasn't made until the late 70's??"


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Your railroad, your rules, is the first rule of model railroading.

But, what you run on your railroad depends upon how correct to period you want to make it.

Steam engines are still used for light local freight in Germany in small areas. It's not something you will see every day. They are also used for excursion and nostalgia trains pulling passengers cars, usually of the same era as the locomotive or within 20 years or so.

In Europe, history is divided into eras starting at the beginning of railroading in Europe (Germany, Austria, & Switzerland particularly) up until the current time of today ending with era VI. Modelers of European railroads generally try to keep within two periods and sometimes stretching from one late era through two eras to the early part of the next era.

This allows for realistic locomotives and rolling stock operation overlapping eras and still being true to the latest era on the model railroad.

In your example above, that would look very strange indeed, but a car from maybe the late 50's through the 60's might be OK. It's your railroad. Who said the steam era ever had to end?

My railroad is in the area of late era IV through early era VI. I am able to run a wide variety of equipment that is still in actual service in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland still today.

In fact, one of my Deutsche Bahn locomotives from 1978 was just recently retired from general service in June of this year. They are still using locomotives 15-20 years older than this one. Strange how that works over there.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Heading back to North America now, steam power was pretty much done by about 1960, for everyday revenue, so any type of car built before that would fit with the era.....

But even then, steam locomotives that have been restored are out there pulling all kinds of cars in special excursions and exhibitions today, so that would work too....

But as has been said here many times, your railroad, your rules......this hobby is designed to make at least one person happy.....and that one person is you.....


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Back in the day, rolling stock was era-appropriate, as you'd expect. Smaller engines could still pull a train of heavyweight passenger cars, just fewer of them, five or six. Maybe on a local. The modern "super steam" 4-8-4 and Duplex variants could handle 16-22 cars of various descriptions, including a string of heavyweight coaches, sleepers, diners, and observation/lounge cars, and haul them at 90 mph easily on level rails or up to about 0.6% grades without helpers. A 2-8-0 erected and set on the rails in 1910 would handle smaller coaches, or a cut of coal hoppers, or some skeleton cars, maybe 15 boxcars. 

It also depended on the road. Was it hilly? Were single steam locomotives expected to handle all their assigned tonnage for the day on the ruling grade? Maybe those 15 laden boxcars were pie-in-the-sky on a 2.2% grade.

As Michael pointed out, when you're the king, you can make the day, and your whims, AND THE LAYOUT EXPERIENCE, fit your druthers. Advance the calendar to 1986 and run an excursion steamer south out of Chicago with an ad hoc string of passenger cars, including some open for the diehard steam fans who love the smoke and cinders. Trix, a subdivision of the German train manufacturer Maerklin, has brought a new version of the Union Pacific Big Boy to market with mostly correct details of the modernized version of 4014,, as a converted oil burner. You could run that engine back in 1949 if you wished. Only a stickler who was observing would notice, or care, that the engine didn't look like that in 1949.

In time, you may care more about truth in modeling. I don't think you're there at this point. You're still learning what it takes to have fun, to keep your interest, even learning WHAT to be interested in. If it comes down to historical accuracy, then you might begin to feel uncomfortable about some incorrect details or methods of operation, or even how the layout looks. That may come , it may not. Feel your way along, learn as you go, and find your comfort level. Have fun.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Michael is right -- your layout, your rules. Don't let some boor tell you what you can and can't do, and don't let what he is likely to think weigh on your mind. As an extreme example, a few years back, I helped a gentleman design a new around-the-walls layout for his basement. He had let a couple of his other buddies convince him to make this great, operationally accurate, point-to-point railroad, when all he wanted was to watch his trains run in a circle through towns, industrial areas, and countryside that he designed and modeled. So much so that even though we put sidings and turnouts there for show, he soldered the points of all the turnouts to the straight route.

The takeaway is that you need to do what YOU want to do, not what someone else thinks you should.

Having said that, if you really want to be accurate, you'll need to pick a real railroad and era and stick pretty close to what they did. I still run some steam on my mid-1950's-themed New Haven layout because I want to, even though the real NH was fully dieselized by late 1953.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

Let us know what loco you bought and we can pretty easily steer you toward era appropriate cars.

Of course it's your railroad and your rules, but it's pretty easy to learn a few bits of information and be able to land generally on the right cars for your locos.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Mushtang said:


> But, if I did have someone over to see my track someday, and they happened to know trains, would it seem strange to have an old steam locomotive pulling certain more modern train cars?
> 
> "Why is that locomotive from 1904 pulling that Well Car which wasn't made until the late 70's??"


I mean, kinda, but it will also be immediately clear that you haven't cared about establishing a theme or era - which anyone is free to enjoy the hobby however you want. Most people are not going to comment on this unless they're completely lacking in tact.

If on the other hand, you state or it's clear that you're mostly representing a 1950s theme, well then the 1904 engine and 1970 freight car are both out of place and anachronistic to that goal.

Putting things of such wildly separated time frames together is sort of going to look out of place either way, but as others like to say "your layout, your rules". MY rules include a level of period accuracy; yours don't have to if you don't want.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

These are a couple of postings I made on my blog to sort of bring together and consolidate some date information about car types and details. Some of the more detailed information applies to newer things post 1960+ but some of the timeline information may help you easily eliminate certain things as too new.

Dating via the Details: General Car Design

Dating via the Details: Wheels, Running Boards and Ladders

Dating via the Details: Freight Car Stencils and Labels

One key indicator will be to look for NEW/BLT or re-weigh dates (discussed in detail in the bottom link) that will provide a specific "start date" for that car, but beyond that keeping a 100% period-accurate collection will require a certain amount of research.


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## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

Some noticeable changes

" In 1968 the AAR legislated the removal of roof walks. This was to be completed by 1978 for cars in interchange service."

"The ICC/ARR ban truss rods in 1952 for interchange traffic. This was mostly due to the age of the fleet, and the advent of steel center beams on freight equipment. Many truss rod box cars had their trucks removed and were converted to storage sheds. "


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Other things to consider if you choose to have a specific time period theme for your railroad include the vehicles (cars and trucks), signage (billboards, road signs, company names, etc.), signals (if you have any), clothing style of any people, and even buildings that you put on your layout. You can view this as an interesting part of the hobby or disregard it altogether. I personally found it enjoyable to research some of the businesses that were around in the mid fifties in the geographical area that I'm modeling and incorporate them into my layout. My goal was to be plausible, but not 100% accurate with what I put on my layout.


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## Andy57 (Feb 7, 2020)

I am new at this also, and here at Andy's Train Depot Est. 2019 is not era or area specific. Maybe someday. I have an steam 0-8-0 pulling the cars that came with it and also two Chicago NorthWestern System hoppers, and one Kansas City Southern hopper. I do not think these go together, either time or place. They are damn fun to play with, you know off the main line onto siding hook, unhook, back on main. If anyone were to tell me I am not era or area specific, I would just tell them "I haven't decided yet". Then I would blow them a raspberry.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

As a more direct response to the question...there are freight and passenger cars that would likely be seen behind a steamer.
Wood box cars, wodd cattle cars, short tank cars, flat cars, gondolas, short hoppers, iced reefers, and, of course, a wood
caboose. Heavy weight 'green' passenger cars and associated green baggage, Railway Express and RR Post office cars were used
on manyt steam era train.

I would suggest doing some surfing oh Youtube. You'll fihd many videos of steam era trains clearly showing
the various car types.

Don


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I was once told that Madison passenger cars go with steam locomotives and streamlined passenger cars go with diesels. Those are appropriate pairings, but nothing is absolute.

What is the specific locomotive Mushtang? If it is a 4-4-0, wood sided cars might be more appropriate.

Also note that different types of locos were more likely to pull different types of trains. A Pacific or Atlantic were generally passenger locos. A N&W Y6b 2-8-8-2 was normally in front of a coal drag.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Well, this is a fun thread! I've enjoyed reading the responses and learning a bit of history on the side. Thanks Mushtang for asking the questions. Keep us posted on your progress.


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Fire21, I agree and was about to post the same thing! 

Thanks everyone for the replies. I did understand before posting that it's my house, my rules, but without being in the hobby before I was just curious how out of normal my rules were about to be. 

For those that asked, my recent order is a Bachmann N Scale 2-8-0 Consolidation Steam Locomotive, Norfolk & Western No. 722, shown below. I'll probably try and find a few box cars and a caboose to start with. I'm sure eventually I'll end up with a couple of diesels and at least one other steam. I just think the steam locomotives are more interesting to me. Not sure why.

Thanks again everyone!! Comment more if there's something to add. I love to learn.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Well you can't go wrong by getting some coal hoppers for the consolidation to pull around.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

From a physics standpoint, the Consolidation is second only to a 0-8-0 of the same size and boiler pressure/piston surface area). It has an engine truck that supports much of the cylinder saddle, smokebox, headlight, and pilot structure, plus of course the front coupler. The rest of the locomotive's weight is borne by the four driver axles, so that locomotive's tractive effort is robust. It should do a very good job on local mixed freights trailing 1000 tons on level track, and about 400 tons on grades up to about 1%. Any heavier on heavier grades and it will be very slow, maybe slip some, and probably require helper services.

Back to physics once more: if a locomotive must tow a given tonnage and maintain track speed, or close to track speed, it will require just over three times the level-track horsepower out of the boiler for each additional 0.5% grade of rise. That is why the steam era had helper districts in the mountains. A single engine trailing a given tonnage might be able to maintain track speed on nearly level tracks, but once the grade rises beyond about 1%, the steamer already near its boiler horsepower limits will slow and possibly stall. That's bad, and avoided like the plague. So, before the grade, the train would slow, a waiting pusher on a siding would enter the main behind the waiting consist, couple, and they'd blow whistles back and forth to coordinate lifting the train and getting it up the grade. First action would be the rear helper shoving to bunch up the slack in the couplers, at which the head end would open up and commence its effort. At the top, the rear engine uncouples, slows, often not even requiring the train to stop, stops, and reverses down the grade when it is safe to do so, ready to help the next consist when it comes along.

In modern times, you merely assign power by controlling one of the MU'd diesels behind the lead cab and get the train up the grade that way. No extra train crew to have nearby. No water towers, coal bins....the diesels were the cat's PJ's for the corporations.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

There's a prototype for just about anything. Here's the Union Pacific 4-6-6-4 Challenger taking 143 cars uphill, all by it's lonesome.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Deleted by me


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

telltale said:


> Mr. Mushturd


What's with calling the OP a name? Pretty darned disrespectful.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Deleted by me


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Rudeness not withstanding, I do appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic. 

I'm going to wait until my locomotive and controller arrive before I decide on which cars to order, but now I think I do want to work to find some models from the early 1900's so it will look mostly correct together. As someone that has built a LOT of model rockets, I understand trying to find a happy mix of accurate and acceptable and the idea that as long as it's fun not much else matters.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Telltale, that is an excellent and humble explanation of your intent. I appreciate your words and can now appreciate your sense of humor. Thanks for your thoughts.

And yes, you did supply good info, thanks for that also.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

For a 2-8-0 like that, you'd want

wooden boxcars 40'
perhaps some early steel boxcars, 40'
wooden reefers
40' stock cars
2-bay hoppers
short tank cars
short flatcars
_And of course a_
- wood-sided caboose

It's just not gonna look right with double-stacks or hi-cube boxcars!
(that UP video above notwithstanding)


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

In case you didn't know, every railcar is dated on it's side (in a month-2 digit year format) with the date it was built/ put in service, rebuild and sometime repaint dates. On quality cars, even on N scale, the dates are small but readable. The newest date there will tell you if the age of the car is old as or older than whatever cutoff date you may decide on. Most cars in the early-mid 1900's were clad in wood. Steel sheet was very expensive and rare, cast iron too heavy to be practical for building a complete car, but wood was cheap, available and strong/durable enough. My father built our family garage out of wood salvaged from dismantled wood boxcars in the early 50's, it's still in use today.


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## Eilif (Nov 6, 2017)

J.Albert1949 said:


> For a 2-8-0 like that, you'd want
> 
> wooden boxcars 40'
> perhaps some early steel boxcars, 40'
> ...


That's a nice list. Maybe add a couple wood sided gondolas too?


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Here's the cars I ended up ordering to go with that steam locomotive...










































X2 of the 203


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Those all look like good choices to me. Congrats!


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## BillCN (Jan 6, 2013)

DonR said:


> As a more direct response to the question...there are freight and passenger cars that would likely be seen behind a steamer.
> Wood box cars, wodd cattle cars, short tank cars, flat cars, gondolas, short hoppers, iced reefers, and, of course, a wood
> caboose. Heavy weight 'green' passenger cars and associated green baggage, Railway Express and RR Post office cars were used
> on manyt steam era train.
> ...


 wodd cattle cars,

What is this specific to?


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

BillCN said:


> wodd cattle cars,
> 
> What is this specific to?


_wood_


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## Steve M (Jul 21, 2020)

Mushtang said:


> Fire21, I agree and was about to post the same thing!
> 
> Thanks everyone for the replies. I did understand before posting that it's my house, my rules, but without being in the hobby before I was just curious how out of normal my rules were about to be.
> 
> ...


 Rounhouse make some nive Truss Rod Box Cars and Reefers that would be nice behind your 2-8-0


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Do yourself a favour and visit Accurail‘s web-site......here are a few fish-belly cars that would be appropriate....They are newer than the truss-rod cars, but still in the steam era.....they also have much more finer details than those truss-rod cars, which would compliment your nice locomotive better.....


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Old_Hobo said:


> visit Accurail‘s web-site


A quick peek and it looks like everything they sell is HO scale. My stuff is N scale. But thanks for the tip, I'll always appreciate new places to get stuff.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Ah, sorry about that.....


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Now that you can recognize the characteristics of the era cars you want, ebay is a good place to buy rolling stock. not much goes wrong with used , just pick major brands, and make sure the couplers match. I seldom spend over 10-20.00 for a car and have gotten some fantastic deals. I too model in N scale, but just a little newer era 1930s to 50s.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Oh, and welcome to the addiction!


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

Thanks! I'm sure I'll end up with a couple of diesel locomotives and modern trains in my future collection as well but I really wanted to start with the steam locomotive because they look much cooler with all the rods and pistons on the wheels, etc.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Just be careful with the puff and chuggers, there is a lot of garbage engines out there in N scale, especially if (more likely when) you get into DCC control and sound. There ain't much room left inside most of those engines. Buying something that is DCC equipped or is a factory option is a good move. PM me if you want more info on how to find out what's good and what to stay far away from in N scale.


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

But didn’t you say (in post #35) not much goes wrong with used.....?


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Old_Hobo said:


> But didn’t you say (in post #35) not much goes wrong with used.....?


Yes I did. I've never had a problem with a used railcar I bought that wasn't already damaged. If I received one with damage that wasn't previously disclosed I simply returned it (Ebay is good that way). I have bought over 100 cars on ebay, I just stick with the quality brands. The OP was asking about railcars not locomotives. My suggestion was not meant to include locomotives. What is likely to fail on say a used boxcar or hopper car? If your experience is different, I suggest you might be buying the known problem manufacturers (cough... Con-cor.. cough... Bachman...cough... old train set junk... cough... mixed lots with a bunch of other trash... cough!) Sorry had a coughing fit there for a moment. I buy Micro trains, Atlas, Kato, Bowser, along with a few other top of the line manufacturers. preferably in their original boxes. If the seller kept up with the boxes, they likely took better care of their trains. I also look for MT or compatible couplers on the cars or plan to change them, I keep a stock of metal replacement wheels on hand and change them out for plastic ones if the car is not free rolling. YMMV!


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## Mushtang (Aug 27, 2020)

>


So what are these steering wheel looking things that stick up above all of these cars? I'm guessing it has to do with the couplers and should all be facing the same direction, towards the locomotive.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Mushtang said:


> So what are these steering wheel looking things that stick up above all of these cars? I'm guessing it has to do with the couplers and should all be facing the same direction, towards the locomotive.


Hand brakes. And no, they don't have to face any particular direction.


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## scenicsRme (Aug 19, 2020)

Yes, the manual brake wheel used to set the brakes on the cars when they are not connected to the air brake compressor on the engine so they don't roll away. On the early cars the brakes were metal or wood against the wheels, so required a lot of force to hold so the brake wheel was vertical to allow the brakeman to apply more force to set the brakes. Newer cars use lined brake shoes that don't require as much force so the wheel is usually horizontal, the brakeman doesn't have to climb on top the car to operate and are less vulnerable to damage while underway. Basically the parking brake on the individual cars.


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