# LED's at turnouts to indicate wheather thrown or closed



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Can anyone tell me the best way to install led indicators at Kato Unitrack turnouts. I would like to use red and green mini signals. I am using DS64's to control the switches with a Powercab throttle and/or WiThrottle on a MiniPad. Do I need a board or any thing else to do this? :dunno:Thanks!


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

Maybe something like an Atlas Relay Switch #200? I tried to set one up on my snap machines, but I couldn't get it to work right (the relays were used).


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I read the DS64 manual quickly so I might have missed
something, but it appears that the device doesn't provide for indicator lamp control. Surprising.

If the Kato turnouts also lack such ability then you
may have to go with the Atlas type relays as suggested
by sachsr1.

Or, perhaps, GunrunnerJohn or one of the other
tech guys could give you
a transistor circuit to control the LEDs. You'd need
one for each turnout indicator. It should be a
simple circuit.

Don


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Gunrunner or anyone else, could (I know that many can) or would someone draw up a quick sketch or schematic that would allow for 8 momentary inputs to control 8 Kato Unitrack turnouts. I have a breadboard and maybe I could build a prototype if I knew what components and their connections. My old brain doesn't have the ability to design even a simple transistor or IC circuit. Should anyone do this, my THANKS in advance!


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

Are you looking for fascia mounted push buttons? 

http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB276/ds64-push-buttons/


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

No, I want an led indicator at the turnout to show it's status, thrown or closed. I am using the PowerCab Throttle accessories function to control the turnouts but I want to see the turnout position from a small distance. I know how to do this in DC but DCC provides different conditions due to the track voltage.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

How do you do it with DC? Do you just connect the LED to the point and its either energizer or not assuming you have the throttle advanced enough? The same circuit may work with DCC, however you might need a bigger resistor. If the point is not power with DC it won't be powered with DCC either.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I have been trying to find a diagram that I had seen before but I cannot find it. Anyhow, the bicolor led was hooked to each of the turnout rails with the cathode in common with a resistor. It works because of the polarity change in DC and which causes the led to change color. But due to the pulsating DC applied to the DCC track that does not change polarity, I don't think that it would work. I may be wrong and nowadays, I generally am. That is why I am seeking help from someone who's brain still works.:laugh:


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Seperate power supply and switch*



BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I have been trying to find a diagram that I had seen before but I cannot find it. Anyhow, the bicolor led was hooked to each of the turnout rails with the cathode in common with a resistor. It works because of the polarity change in DC and which causes the led to change color. But due to the pulsating DC applied to the DCC track that does not change polarity, I don't think that it would work. I may be wrong and nowadays, I generally am. That is why I am seeking help from someone who's brain still works.:laugh:


 BrokeCurmudgeon:

I'm not clear on how the polarity changed when you were using DC. If the wires went to the rails, why would the polarity change just from throwing the turnout? Then again I don't use, or know much about, Kato unitrack turnouts. If they have a metal frog, and its polarity changes, that would do the LED color change too. What you want to accomplish could be done, with DCC, if you can attach a small electrical micro-switch switch to the turnout. When the turnout throws the electric switch is activated. The Bi-color LED's lead would go on the common terminal of the micro-switch. The normally open terminal would be connected to the positive wire coming from a separate little "wall wart" DC power supply. The negative wire from that same "wall wart" would connect to the normally closed terminal of the same micro switch. Thus the LED would get either positive DC voltage or negative DC voltage, depending on the position of the micro-switch. If the color indications are the opposite of what you want, just reverse the wires on the normally open and normally closed micro-switch terminals.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I am sorry for the confusion. I am sliding into dementia and I get easily confused a lot now. Although it all seemed to be clear in my mind, I was combining two projects together. The other project was signals masts that I had in the DC environment. I suppose that I will curtail my future posts so that I don't waste your time and further embarrass myself. I really enjoy building this layout but it is getting quite difficult now. Thanks for all the suggestions! I truly enjoy reading this forum and have learned to admire many of those who post regularly.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Broke

You have a legitimate question. I understand
your DC LED circuit. But, as you say, it doesn't
work with the modified AC of a DCC track.

I'm afraid the only solution is a transistor circuit
or a relay at each turnout to control the LEDs.

I had hope GunrunnerJohn would have chimed in
with a circuit for you. Try sending him a PM to
ask for a transistor circuit to do your job.

A small LATCHING relay would do what you want.
It would pull in when Divert signal is sent to
the turnout and stay until it gets a Straight thru
signal which would release it, thus lighting your LEDs
to indicate which way points are set. The relay coils would
use the turnout motor voltage. You would need a
2 or 3 volt DC voltage for the LEDs.

Another possibility depending on how the point rails are powered.
Are both the divert and straight point rails connected together? 
If not, I can visualize a diode and resistor circuit that would light
Red or Green LED depending on which rail is powered. If divert
rail is powered the RED would get power. If straight is powered
the GREEN would get power. Simple and cheap.

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

sachsr1 said:


> Maybe something like an Atlas Relay Switch #200? I tried to set one up on my snap machines, but I couldn't get it to work right (the relays were used).


I realize that the Atlas Relay Switch #200 may not be what the OP really needs, but FYI ... for others who are considering these relays...

I bought some new-old-stock Atlas #200s for LED indicators for my turnouts. My indicators are on the control panel.

I also found that some did not work reliably. The problem was that a the brass contacts on the inside were corroded. After I polished them they worked fine.

To open them up, find the four dimples on the surface (where the top and bottom are sealed together) and drill these four spots out. To reassemble use small machine screws and nuts.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

I don't need to drive the turnouts but this project does both, drive the turnouts and drive the led indicators. I am not sure that I am up to it, but something like this that only drives the low current leds is what I have in mind. Of course, the simpler the better.
https://modelrailroadelectronics.blog/switch-machine-controllers/
Suggestions?:dunno:


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Arduino Wizards??? 8 each 20ms 12vdc inputs, 15 outputs to Leds


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The Arduino is a way to complicate solution. It does not like the DCC voltage and still needs a circuit that detects the A/C. I can see a 2 LED version that would work if the points are not shorted and receive power from the stock rails. Unfortunately I don't know if you turnouts deactivate the non-connected point. It should because that's better for DCC but I just am not familiar with the turnouts.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Here's a circuit that I think would, one for shorted points and another if the left and right point are isolated. This only works it the points are power by the stock rails. And no you can't use a single resistor on the common point lead. As soon as I can figure out how to get a file that will show up!


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

Lemonhawk said:


> The Arduino is a way to complicate solution. It does not like the DCC voltage and still needs a circuit that detects the A/C. I can see a 2 LED version that would work if the points are not shorted and receive power from the stock rails. Unfortunately I don't know if you turnouts deactivate the non-connected point. It should because that's better for DCC but I just am not familiar with the turnouts.


The Kato turnouts are stock #6's except for the double crossover. In DC they route the power to the thrown rail. I have DCC track power in 6 places, some on the back side of the thrown turnout. I suppose I could disconnect track power on the back side of some of the turnouts but not all. I powered the track that way for DCC because I now can operate on the sidings when the turnouts were not thrown which I could not do in DC. I have attached a jpeg with gaps but I think that this approach will not work for me. But, I don't know. I am still quite confused...


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

I just finished something like this on my layout. It was a pain in the... I have two atlas snap turnouts on my layout that are mounted right above frame work so they'd be hard to replace. I wanted to add LED indicators and turnout feedback into JMRI. It took quite a bit of screwing around to get it to work. I used the following parts not including the turnout motors.

NCE Snap-it
Capacitor for Snap-it
Atlas 200 Snap Relay
three legged bi-color LED
NCE AIU for sensor feedback
5V cell phone charger wall wart
400(ish)Ohm resistors
6418 feet of tangled thin wire (I may have exaggerated)

First I had to screw around with the Snap Relays to get them to work reliably. This included physical fixes as well as adjusting the CV's for the pulse time and the recharge time. I ended up adding capacitors to the Snap-its to power both the relay and the turnout (per the NCE manual). Once I got the Snap Relay and the turnout powered it was time to make the Snap Relay do something. One side of the relay was used for sensor feedback. That part is easy just one wire to the relay common, and one wire to either of the other two terminal. JMRI allows you to invert the sensor if needed to align with the turnout position. 
The LED part wasn't hard, but it was a lot of screwing around. Basically I used a common cathode (ground) three leg LED. I used a 5V 1 amp cell phone charger, and wired that into to two terminal blocks. I figured I'd be using 5V a lot so why not run some under my bench. I put a resistor on the cathode leg, and ran that to the negative. I ran the positive to the common on the Snap Relay, and then use the relay to change between red and green.


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