# Decided on DCC, have questions



## glgraphix

I have decided that sense I am just in the layout planning stages, going DCC now might make more sense than later 
I have purchased a Digitrax Zephyr system, and have a few questions.

First off, is the track going to be wired different than a block style DC setup? if so, how is it wired differently?

Next, I have several really nice DC steam engines that I really dont want to let go of. When putting a decoder in them, where do you start as far as brand, and type of decoder for the type/size engine? and what about sound?

Also, I have Atlas code 100 NS track, does the turnouts have to be altered? and does the joints have to be soldered to work properly with DCC?

Lastly, I am going to probably do a bi-level layout with a coal yard and few tipples on the second level. What kind of seperate wire is going to be needed? and can you use the same Zephyr system with both levels?


Sorry for the "20 questions", just want to get as much info as possible before I get too far to turn back.
Thanks, Kevin


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## Southern

I am going to watch this tread. I am still DC, and someday might go DCC.

John


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## T-Man

Being a non DCC guy a few things come to mind. I have seen Digitrax on big layouts in the area. From what I have seen it is the most preferred. Some systems are different from others so wandering to another brand may have complications. Compatibility is key. First the system uses about 24 volt through the track. Signals are passed through the track. Each engine responds to it's own commands. The blocks are the engines.
DCC ready engine has to have the motor isolated from the frame.
Last question is yes. Decoders must fit and be compatible with the type of system you have. 
Sounds are programmable.
I am sure Digitrax has a good site to answer these questions but I wanted to start up the discussion.


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## stationmaster

Please allow me to tell you of my quest when I switched to DCC.

I did a lot of reading, researching, and inquiring of others that had made the switch before me. Now, we are talking about 7 years ago.

I did my best to research all of the units of the time. Our club used Prodigy. Another club I visited used Digitrax, while yet another used Lenz. And a friend had purchased the NCE system. I wrote down on paper what I wanted and expected my system to be able to do. MU'ing, multiple cabs, operate fixed decoders for switching, ease of operation, large address book, a controller that was easy in the hand, power,....

I had the opportunity to run many of the systems. That was a bonus, in my opinion. I simply started deleting the ones that did not meet my standards. Oddly, the Digitrax had a reputation of not being user friendly. I found that to just be a matter of familiarity with the system. The Prodigy was too limited. Lenz was too new and I did not know how long they would last.

Although I did keep Lenz in the running, the two companies that ended in the running were NCE and the Digitrax Super Empire Builder. I had methodically deleted the other Digitrax units as they did not meet certain requirements, power being the most obvious. I finally based my choice on the controller, as all else seemed relatively equal.

While the Digitrax may seem a more daunting challenge when programming. I still feel that it is a matter of familiarity. It is, in my opinion the premier system on the market.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Bob


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## glgraphix

Thanks for the input. So far so good. I havent received my unit yet in the mail, so I am still waiting. I have talked with several people and get a lot of the same answers, kind of.?
Has anyone on here dealt with TCS decoders yet? I have a rep in the area, and the locals seem to really like the ease of their ability to get the engine up and running smooth fast.
LMK, thanks, and keep the input coming.
Kevin


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## glgraphix

Never mind, found a couple sites
Thanks, Kevin


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## TycoonistCarl

Stupid Question... Can you run a DCC locomotive on DC? My plan is to build a basic layout now, then upgrade sometime in 2010.


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## stationmaster

Most new DCC decoders have a DC options. But, some do not. You just won't have access to some of the options available, like the horn, if using sound, or the ditch lights, ect.

Bob


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## tankist

playing with "DCC ready" and "factory DCC installed" Spectrums, my understanding is that DC jumpers need to be inserted instead of decoder to run DC. 

Bob, is the solution you speak of some comprises sort of hardwire switch integrated into controller itself? or is it one of the configuration parameters the decoder configured with?


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## stationmaster

Some decoders require removal and the jumper installed in its place. However there are "smart" decoders That are able to differentiate between DC and DCC. Some refer to these decoders as "dual mode" decoders.

There is no need to reconfigure the controller. The "brains" of the whole thing is the decoder, not the controller. The controller only passes along the information that tells the decoder what you want done, similar to a keyboard or the mouse on your computer. The computer tower with all of its components is the brains, the keyboard and the mouse are tools for the operator. Th same applies to the decoder and the controller.

I believe that NCE and Digitrax both offer dual mode decoders. But, I may be wrong. I don't have any engines that are equipped with them that I can think of off the top of my head. There may be a couple of oddballs on my roster that I am forgetting, though.

Bob


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## TycoonistCarl

That's fine. I was just wondering so that way next year i can upgrade from DC to DCC. I would only have to remove the chip or change the settings for now, then reinsert it later from what i understand.


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## TycoonistCarl

Ok. I have a powerpack. Because i was planning to buy this now with some track...
http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/dto/item160-60441.html

Then this later...
http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/dto/item160-44906.html

Would the DCC locomotive run alright DC for a year?


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## TycoonistCarl

http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/dto/item160-44906.html

Sorry, here is the later link.


After the upgrade, I would have 2 gp50's. I am aware of this


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## tankist

Carl (right?)
for now to run DCC locomotive with DC powerpack , as Bob have mentioned, you have to have dual mode decoder. if the one you have is indeed dual mode then you're good and it will run fine. if not remove the decoder and replace with DC jumpers. not sure which loco you got but my "DCC factory equipped" Spectrum came with set of jumpers. i'd think bach will do to.

oh, and about your link, i personnaly don't like bachmann to much. 

EDIT: and i'm pretty sure it is not dual mode (i will be surprised if it is)


Bob, i said nothing about controller


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## TycoonistCarl

Thanks. I appreciate the help.


PS: You did get my name right.


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## stationmaster

If you are going to go DCC eventually why not do it now? The price of the Bahmann EZ unit is not much above a quality power supply. Once you go to DCC, you may ask yourself why did I wait so long, and how did I manage before? 

Bob


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## randall_l

*@glgraphix*

Sorry for the late reply, but I only recently joined the forum and have only started reading all the posts.

Some direct answers (and personal experience) to your questions:

"is the track going to be wired different than a block style DC setup?"
Wiring DC and DCC is almost identical--meaning that if you design your layout for DC, you can likely move to DCC with little or no modification to your wiring. Well designed DCC layouts still have blocks for power management and auto reversing.

"if so, how is it wired differently?"
The only diffenence I've encountered so far is turnouts. Make sure you get insulated-frog turnouts. Powered frogs end up in a short on DCC systems shutting the booster down and stopping anything controlled by it.

"...where do you start as far as brand, and type of decoder for the type/size engine?"
I chose Digitrax, because they're popular and seem to have a really good reputation--your mileage may vary. Digitrax has a chart on their website for choosing a decoder for a locomotive (http://www.digitrax.com/decsel.php). If that fails, you can contact them or the loco manufacturer.

"and what about sound?"
Sorry, I can't answer this. While there are several decoders with sound, I've chosen not to have sound on my layout yet.

"I have Atlas code 100 NS track, does the turnouts have to be altered?"
Likely not. The only exception being if there's a soldering point for powering the frog--you'll likely have to remove that.

"and does the joints have to be soldered to work properly with DCC?"
A lot of the model railroading veterans I've spoken to say "track joiners will eventually let you down--guaranteed". I'm inclined to accept their experience, but it's your layout and your choice. I've chosen to modify that slightly by alternating the soldering so every joint has one side soldered (usually with a power feed) and one not (joiner only). This allows for a bit of rail expansion/contraction while still ensuring that every piece of track is adequately and reliably powered. I've also left switch joints unsoldered (joiners only) to make future repairs/replacements easier.

"What kind of seperate wire is going to be needed? and can you use the same Zephyr system with both levels?"
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The way DCC works is it sends signals through the rails (similar to modulated AC). Every part of your track can be powered by the same booster/command station and you can have multiple locos on your layout. When you select a loco using DCC, it is the only loco you can send commands to. You shouldn't need separate wires, just make sure RAIL A and RAIL B match on both levels and that there is a power feed at least every 6 feet. Does that answer your question?

If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to answer.

Cheers!
Randall


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## stationmaster

Carl and Randall, though my layout had power districts, it was because I chose to change horses in the middle of the stream. That is to say, I decided to turn to DCC during construction instead of planning on using it from the very beginning. Power districts are not needed when using DCC, that is, not a necessity as using them in a DC configuration.

As far as the reverse loop application, many decoders now "sense" the polarity change and make needed adjustments internally.

"Blocking" a layout is both time consuming and tedious. One of the grand chores now made redundant by the advent of DCC. However, I would recommend blocking a layout. One never knows when the DCC system should fail and that would lead to the layout to be rendered useless. At least with a blocked layout, one can revert to DC operation until repairs or replacement can be made.

If you are wanting sound, the Tsunami system is probably the best there is. I use the system and am pleased as punch. The options, and the realistic sound are second to none.

As far as the connectivity, I have wires soldered every section, or every three feet, at opposite ends of each section for opposite polarity. It may seem like overkill, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Soldering is recommended even for a DC layout. Though I know of friends that have used the Atlas connector track modules. Soldering also makes the layout look "cleaner", no funky connector track poking its ugliness about. Also, make your connections on the OUTSIDE of the rails. Otherwise, you will experience problems with the solder joint and the flanges of the wheels.

Some turnouts will need trimmed. That is all dependent upon the layout. Most do not, but there is always those uncooperative few that tend to be a bit ornery. And this varies from layout to layout. You will find it best to have the layout together before nailing it down. At least that is what I have found from my experiences, some 50 years of trial and error in some cases. And I must say that it is usually, but not always, the tail that needs trimmed. And I do use insulated frogs. They prevent any potential of shorting out.

One other thing that I would suggest. I would plan on an "isolated programming track". A siding that can be used to program your locomotives' decoders. I have found this to be a real blessing. It surely cuts down on the "handling" time for each locomotive. And you can just "roll" the engine out of the siding and right onto the layout when finished to test the engine and have it join your fleet without handling it a bunch. It reduces the chance meeting with the floor. Clumsiness happens at the most inopportune moment(Murphy's Law #416).

Another thing that I would suggest is that you build modular and use the NMRA guidelines and best practices. By using them, you give yourself a continuity in the construction of your layout. 

To add a note here, My layout was destroyed a few weeks ago during a break in. So, I will have to rebuild the biggest part of it. I doubt that it will be rebuilt to the size of the older one, but, I will use the same techniques I used before. I will still have a large yard, one or two smaller ones, lots of industrial switching, and a significant amount of sidings to prevent "cornfield meets". I doubt that there will be the number or length of quad track, but instead I will have just as much, if not more, double and triple track.

For any questions on DCC, I would suggest Tony's Train Exchange. These guys are great when it comes to answering any questions you may have. First class group of folks.

Bob


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## randall_l

Thanks for the additional detail Bob. I was simply answering the questions, as no one had answered them all yet.

I didn't feel it was necessary to state whether blocks were necessary or not--and I agree, they're not necessary but are recommended. I chose to separate my layout into 5 tables--each one a block to make wiring and moving easier.

Cheers!
Randall


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## glgraphix

Ok, I have had my Digitrax system for a while now. I have instaled 5 decoders in Steam engines and so far so good 

By far Digitrax is the WAY to go. I have talked with the tech guys a few times and they have been great, and wouldnt let me get off the phone until they were sure I understood where and what I was doing.

I have had great luck with the install of my Digitrax decoders and it really isnt as bad as you might think. I was really dreading it, as how I was afraid of getting in over my head. But now I got my first one out of the way, and it ran better DCC than just plain DC. It really made the engine smoother and more able to get it down to a crawl.

I have come across a few sites and want to pass them along also.....

http://www.tonystrains.com/index.html (so far this is my favorite)

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mrwithdcc/index.html

I have a few more, but will have to hunt them back up...

Stay tuned, as how I will keep everyone posted with DCC
Thanks, Kevin


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## tankist

glgraphix said:


> I have talked with the tech guys a few times and they have been great,


did they say when they finaly going to refresh that horrid external design? their stuff looks styled after those silver boom boxes from 80's. and while functionality is indeed great, ergonomics are way behind. actually absentaltogather . 
my only grief with digitrax. deal killer actually.

NCE for me (as soon as my MRC kit is sold), not far behind in functionality if at all, and years ahead in ergonomics


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## glgraphix

Exactly what are you talking about?? If you mean their throttles? I cant imagine why you would want one soooooo small you couldnt read the #'s? My Zepher set is smaller than any of the MRC ThrottlePacks I have?
Please explain, thanks
Kevin


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## tankist

i'm talking the design of the cab, not size.
it is obviously matter of personal preference. while digitrax is solid performer no doubt, the cab is the thing one actually holds on to and touches. JMO, NCE feels and looks much better and that's because its laid out much better
digitrax reminds me a calculator from 80's

NCE









digitrax


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## glgraphix

LOL, I see what you mean...
Kevin


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## markr2

stationmaster said:


> .. Lenz was too new and I did not know how long they would last...
> Bob


I thought Lenz was the oldest of the DCC companies. I read somewhere that Lenz holds the patents on the basic DCC functionality.


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## stationmaster

We are talking 15 years ago. They are a German company that made its way to our shores after others had made their entry into the market. And at the time I was shopping, they had a one year limited warranty. They also had longevity problem among those I knew that owned them. Believe me, I shopped long and hard before I made my final decision. It came down to the longevity issues and the personal references I got from actual users of the products.

And if the truth be known, in the beginning of my research the unit I bought was toward the bottom of the list. Odd how things work out.

Bob

How can one patent something like "functionality"? A pretty general term you're throwing about.


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## radfan

stationmaster said:


> We are talking 15 years ago. They are a German company that made its way to our shores after others had made their entry into the market. And at the time I was shopping, they had a one year limited warranty. They also had longevity problem among those I knew that owned them. Believe me, I shopped long and hard before I made my final decision. It came down to the longevity issues and the personal references I got from actual users of the products.
> 
> And if the truth be known, in the beginning of my research the unit I bought was toward the bottom of the list. Odd how things work out.
> 
> Bob
> 
> How can one patent something like "functionality"? A pretty general term you're throwing about.


Interesting what you have to say but they claim to be the inventors of DCC,

http://www.digital-plus.de/e/index.php

although I was of the impression it was another German company that started the ball rolling back in the 70's


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## stationmaster

Another did, but are now defunct. Lenz did not enter the American market until about the early 1990's. Companies like Digitrax and NCE had already gained a reputation as well as a strong foothold in the market. 

I looked at Lenz an had initially chosen them. I decided to do a bit of research before diving in. Digitrax won out because, after speaking to many users of such systems as the Prodigy, Digitrax, the NCE line, and he Lenz, as well as the things everyone was telling about support(especially about the guys at Tony's Train Exchange) I chose Digitrax.

The claim made by Lenz about patenting the DCC "functionality" baffles me. It's like some one getting a patent on the functionality of the internal combustion engine, it would seem. Don't quite understand that claim. And their claim to be "inventors of DCC" is a bit fetched. Decoder were use in industry for many years, probably since the early 1970's. The application of the idea for use in trains had to wait on decoders becoming small enough to place inside of the engines/cars. The first recollection I have of a "decoder" had the decoder being the size of a playing card or pack of cigarettes. Not very conducive to use in our hobby a you can see. The memory I have was for a "chip" that was used in a robotic piece of machinery and looked much like an electronic board similar to that of a transistor radio. That was in 1971. We are talking pretty neat stuff for the day.

When I started my current layout, it was in the planning stages for over 5 years before I laid a single piece of track. DCC was in its infancy, if you will, here in the States. Only those with deeper pockets were taking advantage of the new technology. I was taken by it, but didn't think I could afford it.

I started laying track in my layout in late 1997, building the first module, which was really meant to be a static diorama. I joined a club about a year later, which had decided to make the DCC plunge. They were going to build a new layout, do away with the old one, committing to total DCC operation. It was during my time helping them build that I, personally, committed. My layout was not nearly done, maybe 1/3, so the timing was near perfect for me.

I had begun to wire the power district and had already allowed for the power districts by isolating them from each other. Thinking I had to rebuild some of the modules, I was glad to find out from the people at Tony's that having power districts would actually be a blessing(I'll explain that later). All I had to do was leave them switched "on" to keep the rails "hot".

The build was on, proceeding full throttle. Now, my layout is not finished. not even today. I have modules that I change out to be more versatile and to model different eras. The grandkids cannot relate to the steam engines. So, I have modules to better replicate these more modern schemes.

Now to explain why having power districts has its benefits. The single largest benefit is how it allows me to locate any problems on my layout. If I have a problem are I simply find the district it is occurring by turn the power districts on and off. I doesn't give the exact location, but it sure narrows it down. A real time saver with larger layouts. And it allows me to keep my hair and sanity.

Both Lenz and Digitrax, at the time, had bugs. But having access to real people, in real time, was one of the main reasons for selecting Digitrax. Of course, time has passed, and I'm sure Lenz now has the same benefit. At the time I was "converted", they did not, unless you spoke to some one with a heavy German accent.

The one drawback to Digitrax, that I found, was the programming process of the
decoder. A bit awkward, but once you program a couple of engines, it became second nature.

Isolation/programming tracks are a must for any system. You need to plan for them from the start. I use a siding(another power district) that is isolated from the main layout. One could use something similar, a piece of track, on the workbench also. But, I found the siding thing neat. I program the engine and simply roll it off the siding for service.

radfan, I am not as anti-Lenz as you are pro-Lenz, it seems. You seem to have already made up your mind. At the time I purchased and set my DCC system up, Digitrax just made more sense. Better(and closer) customer service, enough users to give me better feedback on how and why they liked the Digitrax....... All added up to me buying Digitrax over Lenz. What would I choose if I was building now? I don't know. It would probably end up the same...two finalists, Lenz and Digitrax. And I'd probably have to flip a coin.

Bob


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## radfan

Hi Bob, Thanks for your presentation and insight, however I was wrong to say it was another German firm that done it first, It was an Austrian firm,lol

http://www.zimo.at/web2007/content/missionE.htm

and they are still going strong, If I was to start all over again, It would be with their gear, but I already have three systems so no point in ditching them,
I'm neither pro or anti with any of these companies, My money goes where I think I get the best deal and that includes the full package being suitable for my needs, Naturally Lenz is more easily available to us being in the EU but I have installed Digitrax decoders into my locos as well as many other types,
I currently have somewhere in the region of 70 chipped loco's fitted into my stable with many more still to be converted as funds and time permits.


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## stationmaster

radfan, my move to DCC was a big SPLASH!!!!! I've got over 4000 pieces of rolling stock(not including passenger cars or cabooses). I've been thinning the herd of engine, I'm down to about 350 now, not including the antique collection of Varney, Bowser and such. My oldest engine was built by Varney in 1940. Paid dearly for that one. And of course, I have a few brass engines. Just a natural growing pain of being in the hobby as long as I have, I guess.

We also have the better half's G-scale Garden Trains, with DCC of course. With the sheer number I own, my first purchase of decoders, about 50, came when I go a BIG tax return. Since I've got most chipped. Some, such as the old Athearn Hi-Fi's are big amp hogs, as are many of the old engines. Still, DCC is the single biggest innovation in the hobby in my 50 years of participating(my anniversary date was just this past Christmas, though I always like to think I "helped" Dad before then).

I think DCC was inevitable. Just a matter of time before miniaturization of computer/electronic chips came about. As I said before, my first recollection of control chips/boards was around 1971. Quite huge when compared to today's standard chip. And for some company to state they "invented" DCC sounds quite extreme to me. All they did was to apply the technology to the hobby. Not much "inventing" involved, I don't think. Even today's personal computers are more powerful than the first computer, thanks to miniaturization.

My next venture, should I make it that far, is to set up a "reader" system that actually can "read" car and consist information. Sounds like a formidable task to me, but there seems to be few options to improving my layout, taking it to the next plateau. I already have block detection units. Not much left to do. Unless, that is, I set the layout to be run totally by computer. I don't see much fun operating something without the "personal touch", being hands on, that is.

Bob


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## radfan

Sounds to me you should start using the garden railway for live steam Bob, cant get more hands on than the real thing in minature.


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## stationmaster

radfan, there is one problem holding me back from live steam. It begins with one of these...$. 

Bob


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## gc53dfgc

*Question about DCC controllers*

will a Hornby DCC controller work with Bachmann DCC locomotives to or will there be problems?


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## stationmaster

gc53dfgc, most control units wit work with almost any decoder, except MTH which is proprietary.

Bob


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## vanslam

This sounds like my story. I just got into modeling RR this year and created 2 blocked DC layouts. Then I wanted to have more control of the engines since I was running multiple trains at the same time (some nice crashes by the way.) 

I went through, like many trying to figure out what system to get and decided to get the NCE Power Cab. Since each of my interconnecting layouts were block style DC setup it was pretty easy for me to change over to DCC. I had only one power source for each DC layout and turned off one when both tracks were connected. However, in DCC, I had to add powerlines to each turn out so I could operate a train while another was running on the main line. 

I do run my DCC engines on the DC track from time to time but the DC controller is almost 1/4 to 1/3 turn before they move. ANd the lights and sound kick on after they have sped up a bit. However many of my DCC decoders are the newer MRC duels (DCC/DC). I don't think you can run DC on DCC but I haven't tried.

Next, steam engines are awesome in DCC with the right sound decoder. I haven't converted my steam yet I am trying to decide to do it myself or send it out to be done. But sooner or later it will be done. 

If the tracks are completely separated or separated by a switch you will need to add power past the switch if you want to run DCC engines while the switch is closed. 

DCC is more complicated but a lot more. IMOA


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## stationmaster

I don't know if DCC is more complicated than creating a layout with power districts. Creating the districts poses problems unique to DC operation. DCC takes away all of those problems, but present unique problems of its own. And of course there is the added expense of decoders with DCC.

With my layout, being started originally to be DC, I have all of my districts' power switches in the "on" position allowing the operator to operate the train over the entire layout. I have one isolated siding that I use for my "programming track". The main yard is also isolated.(I'd hate for a "runaway" to get loose in there!!!). 

Most DCC systems have the ability to run a single DC engine. And there are "smart decoders" that run both DCC and DC, I believe Atlas units are that way. When I started my layout, DCC was expensive. I'm glad to see the prices have come down and make it affordable for others. 

Bob


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## Massey

Your power districts that you had in DC can be converted into power districts as well in DCC, It sounds like you went with Digitrax (I didnt read every post) and right now you have the entire layout running as one district with the ability to switch off any of them at any time. If you use a PM42 you can eliminate those switches and have the safety of short protection. The PM42 can be used as a reverser for wyes or loops or as a safety breaker, or a combination of both. I usually split my layouts into 3 or 4 districts so if I get a short in one area only that area is effected and not the entire layout. The PM42 also will protect the booster from damage from a short as well. You can check this device out on the Digitrax website.

Massey


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