# turnouts always a problem



## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

I would like to know what brand and kind of turnout to use so my trains will not short out everytime they go by.
If I can do something to train or turnout to stop this I would love to know. This is a problem I have had with same loco before, the turnout I have is micro engineering,I also have a few other brands mixed in in drawer maybe they would work
when you answer my problem.
THANKS AL


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> This is a problem I have had with same loco before


This is saying to me that the problem is the locomotive, not the turnouts. First thing I would check would be that all the wheels are in gauge. If you don't have an NMRA gauge I would highly recommend getting one.








NMRA 98-1 Standards Gauge HO Scale


NMRA 98-1 Standards Gauge HO Scale




www.modeltrainstuff.com


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

While no company is immune from making the occasional defective part, MicroEngineering turnouts are good quality, as are Peco, Walthers, and Atlas Custom Line (but not their other lines). 

Like Flyboy, I would suggest that this is most likely a locomotive problem, not a turnout problem. Pull out you NMRA standards gauge and check everything on both the turnout and the loco, and you will find the problem.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

There doesn't appear to be a tread width standard listed in the NMRA guide, and could not find anything in the NEM standards either.

Noting the above, some wheel tread widths are slightly wider than others and will bridge the two converging rails at a turnout frog resulting in shorting out the entire layout. It can also be caused from out of gauge wheels that CTValley noted. However, if the wheels are spaced too far apart (we're talking thousandths of an inch here) it could cause other problems other than only shorting out on turnout frogs.

If your wheel sets are in spec then it is likely the wheel tread is too wide. It can be cured permanently by turning the inside edge of the wheel a couple of thousandths or insulating the rail another 1/8" at the convergence point.

I thought we talked about this already. Maybe another member.


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

Michael
It is the same problem I just asked for a turnout that would not do this everytime. Iwould like to buy a turnout that wouldn't short out. We had this talk a while back and you told me to wire up switch that would stop this,I'm just looking for a easier way. 
THANKS AL


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

The turnout is not the problem. The locomotive(s) is the problem.

I did not mention anything about how to wire up a switch frog or other turnout wiring. That must have been another poster.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

When this problem crops up, it inherently means that you have to do some work. Either wire up an 'electrofrog' style turnout, and don't get shorts (probably), or use an 'insulfrog' variety and maybe not get shorts. Looking at that logic, the deciding element is almost certainly NOT the frog!! If it were the frog, one of those two frog turnouts would work, about 99% of the time. 
You have either a guard rail gauge problem (test with the NMRA gauge), or maybe the frog rails are so close that a metal tire covers both at the same time, which generates an immediate short. If you're doing 'insulfrog', paint one of the two points [Edit] *frog* rails with clear nail varnish for about 5mm beyond the spacer.

[Sorry, saw much later that I had mistakenly typed 'points', when I intended 'frog'. ]


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

This is a problem that most of us have experienced. There is not ONE answer, but several as per those who have already posted.
However, the turnout FROG is usually at the center of the problem.
When the rails that guide the loco are also the source of it's power you can expect some difficulties...especially when the two rails
meet in a turnout or crossing. Usually, insulfrog type turnouts have a spot where BOTH rails meet, separated by a very thin
strip of insulation. Even wheels built to spec can at times 'span' this spot and short out. You can easily do a quick remedy using
a small dab of clear fingernail polish on ONE of the meeting rails, thus eliminating the possibility of a short. For a more
permanent remedy you can carefully file ONE of those rails so it is lower than it's mate.

The Electrofrog solution requires that both of the frog rails be connected thru an insulated joiner to avoid
short circuits when the points move thus changing polarity in them.

Don


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

I KNOW MORE ABOUT THE PROBLEM NOW,I HAVE NOT DECIDED A ACTION YET BUT WHEN I DO I WILL LET YOU KNOW
THANKS AL


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

I finally checked the turnouts brand and they are Bachmann e-Z track. Can anybody help now that I know the brand.
I FELL LIKE A DUMMY AL


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I regret having to say this, but they are among the very worst product in the hobby. I read more complaints about EZ-Track turnouts than about any other brand. I found, in my brief time with EZ-Track (built an entire layout with it), that the plastic roadbed bends over time, usually upward at the ends of each length. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say it's the plastic, and not the ties or rails. If the turnouts share the same material as fake roadbed............................................................................................................... Also, the points rails don't always lie flush and tight to the stock rails. The points rails' hinges, where they become closure rails, are often so sloppy that the points cannot lie flat up against the stock rails. If they are not power-routing turnouts, and I honestly cannot remember, then they have to have good contact between the points and the closure rails. So, power transmission along any two routes can be spotty...probably.


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

I don't know what makes these turnouts stop the loco's, about 1/2 of my engines stop or studder going by. can anybody tell me how to fix this problem, the next thing to do is buy 2-4 more turnouts but which brand TO STOP THIS PROBLEM
The loco's that stop are 0-6-0 steam eng. If I new what to buy that would fix this I would put the money out. 
If it make a difference I run the loco with turnout on the right so I go straight most of the time if that helps.
AL


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

An 0-6-0 has only a "short wheelbase" through which to pick up current.
I'm guessing it's losing contact with the power for short intervals at the turnouts.

Can you take a pic (from above) of the problem switches and the track adjacent to them and post it?


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

If the locomotive is modern, with pickup at the tender's wheels (easily determined), but also at the drivers under the boiler, there's no reason for even long #8 insulated-frog turnouts to work. I run my Life Like Proto 2000 'Heritage' 0-6-0 over hand laid #8 turnouts whose frogs are electrically dead, severed from the rest of the turnout. I custom-built a curved turnout with an isolated and dead frog in the #12 range, a long dead frog, but that tiny beast runs along over it like nobody's business.

If there is no pickup under even one of the two items, your chances of stalls rises into the 40-70% range, depending on the distance between pickups and the length of the frog (if it's a dead one).

Micro Engineering, Peco, Atlas, those are all good turnouts. Just put a length of cork roadbed under whichever one you use, attach it to the other rails, and then shim under it until it is firmly supported. This is where you need to be focused and patient; failure to secure a turnout, allowing it to sag or to squirm, or to wallow, will both reduce electrical contact (if you rely on the joiners for that purpose, not often a good idea), and make the various pickup wheels ride poorly, or lift, on the rails, which ALSO affects electrical contact.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The Bachmann EZ tiurnouts use a proprietary system to couple with their EZ track sections. 
There are modifications available, according to past posts, that claim to enable one to use
a non Bachmann replacement turnout. But no non Bachmann turnout can be used to replace right
out of the box.

The EZ turnouts appear to have a plastic frog, thus eliminating wheel shorts there.. There may be an electrical contact under the
turnout that powers the movable points. if this is not properly energized or the point rails fail to contact
the stock rails, locos would lose power and pause or stop. 

You can use your multimeter to test
this. If you are DCC set it to AC volts. If DC set it to DC volts. With NO loco on the tracck set the speed
control to a mid point. Set the turnout to STRAIGHT. 
Put one probe on the LEFT stock
rail. Put the other on the RIGHT movable point. You should get the voltage set by your controllder. (appx 14 v if DCC)
Then set the turnout to DIVERT. Put probe on RIGHT stock rail and the other on the LEFT moveable poiht. Again you should
get the voltage reading. If either has no reading the movable points are losing electrical
contact. Perhaps Bachmann turnout users could advise how to correct this problem.

Here is a picture of the EZ turnouts, (has enlarge capability).






Amazon.com: Bachmann Trains - Snap-Fit E-Z TRACK REMOTE TURNOUT - LEFT (1/card) - STEEL ALLOY Rail With Black Roadbed - HO Scale: Toys & Games


Buy Bachmann Trains - Snap-Fit E-Z TRACK REMOTE TURNOUT - LEFT (1/card) - STEEL ALLOY Rail With Black Roadbed - HO Scale: Tracks - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





All this is the reasoning of many of us who think that using flex track, with compatible turnouts and crossings
can make a layout easier to install and smoother to operate.

Don


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I would correct it with Peco turnouts.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> I would correct it with Peco turnouts.


Definitely get rid of the EZ Track turnouts. I agree with others opinions of them: you would be hard pressed to design a worse turnout if you tried.

Any of the 4 brands I mentioned in my previous post (Peco, MicroEngineering, Walthers, or Atlas Custom Line) would work... although none of them are compatible with Bachmann's EZ Track right out of the box.

Any fixes you do to those turnouts is just putting lipstick on a pig.


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## Cab1 (Jul 26, 2009)

Yeah, I hear ya'. I'm facing a long haul ahead of me when I start laying track during that stretch of nothing after the holidays. I settled on Peco electrofrog myself. That was the plan, anyway, but it got tossed out the window a long time ago. It's so expensive nowadays days to put down a good run you can't be too choosy. Not so much with flex-track, but with turnouts - especially the three-way kind. I picked up a few different brands that look and work pretty much the same way as the Peco, so I'm hopping with a little good diligence I'll be able to get them to play nice together. Some might think it's a waste of time, but you have to be creative when space is limited. If you plan on setting up even the tiniest of rail yards with a two rail ladder and small service area you know what I'm talking about. Even a simple turnaround that fades out behind an elevated scenery takes up space and must be planned for well in advance.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> I finally checked the turnouts brand and they are Bachmann e-Z track. Can anybody help now that I know the brand.
> I FELL LIKE A DUMMY AL



Trainman;

If I remember correctly, your earlier thread said that you were using Micro Engineering turnouts. All the answers, including my recommended tests, were based on dealing with Micro Engineering turnouts. Now you say you actually have Bachmann EZ-Track turnouts, Is that correct? If so, bad news. Bachmann EZ-track turnouts, as mesenteria has said, are the worst on the market. The file below "All About turnouts", has lots of information about various brands of model turnouts. The file is quite long, so for now I suggest you skip ahead to the last few pages. There are some comments from Bachmann EZ-Track turnout owners, and they are all very negative. I'm afraid the best thing to do would be to switch brands. Since you want to keep things simple, I recommend buying Peco "Insulfrog" turnouts, which have a plastic frog, that won't need any electrical switching. If you're not able to find the "insulfrog" type, they are being replaced by a new type that Peco calls a "Unifrog." The unifrog comes set up electrically as a "Insulfrog." so it will work equally well.
If you want to keep using "roadbed track" that has the plastic roadbed piece attached to the bottom of each track section, the Kato Unitrack is much better than the Bachmann EZ-Track, particularly the Kato turnouts, which are way better than those Bachmann EZ-track lousy ones. Kato Unitrack, and Bachmann EZ-Track are not directly compatible with each other. That is they're not designed to connect to each other. It is possible to modify them to mate to each other. You can look on youtube for videos of how to do this.
On the other hand, if you choose to use the Peco turnouts I suggested, you will simply need to put enough cork, or foam, roadbed under the Peco turnouts to match the height of your Bachmann track. Best in terms of continued reliability, but worst for cost, and rip out, & replacement labor, would be to replace both your Bachmann turnouts, and your Bachmann track, with Peco turnouts and Peco flex track.

So you have several options, but none of them cheap, or easy, I'm afraid. Bummer! 

Traction Fan 😕


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

TRACTION FAN 
I bought 3 mico engineering turnout,I still have them I put 1 in the track when I added track. when you asked what kind of turnouts I had I forgot about the Bachmann. At this time I have 2 bachmann both right hand turns on layout I will buy
a couple extra. I"m sorry for bad infro I gave you. I"m sitting at computor now and will order as soon as I can.
AL


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> TRACTION FAN
> I bought 3 mico engineering turnout,I still have them I put 1 in the track when I added track. when you asked what kind of turnouts I had I forgot about the Bachmann. At this time I have 2 bachmann both right hand turns on layout I will buy
> a couple extra. I"m sorry for bad infro I gave you. I"m sitting at computor now and will order as soon as I can.
> AL


Trainman11;

If you're buying " a couple extra" turnouts, I hope they aren't Bachmann EZ-Track turnouts. Those things are really bad! The worst available.
Since you say that you don't want the complication of switching the electrical polarity of the frog, then Micro Engineering turnouts could work for you, though you would need to leave the frog disconnected. They are excellent turnouts. They have an isolated metal frog, which is normally powered, and if it is connected, then it would need to have it's polarity switched. If you leave the frog disconnected, then it will be electrically "dead" and if I remember correctly, that was your original problem back when you first posted.
I recommended the Peco Insulfrog, or the Unifrog. Either of those would not need to have the frog polarity changed. The plastic frog of the Insulfrog model, can't be powered, of course, since well, it's plastic! Duh! 
However, the Unifrog has the powering option built-in, but not connected. So, you could try it without power, and if you had stalling on the frog, like you did before, then it would be possible to power the frog. The same as would be true for the Micro Engineering turnout.

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

I ordered 2 each an hour ago from modeltrainstuff, midwest didn't have any. man they were pricey. I may not know everything but if I stay on here I will learn what to buy.I have some old turnouts I bought but I don't trust them I will
leave the layout like it is until they come in.
One thing I need to know is were can you buy steam loco's at a good price, e-bay has some good 4-4-0s or 0-6-0
steam I will have to watch who I deal with I bought a 4-4-0 that I had to send back it would not run right even they said they had checked it out.
I really THANK YOU FOR HELP
AL


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> I ordered 2 each an hour ago from modeltrainstuff, midwest didn't have any. man they were pricey. I may not know everything but if I stay on here I will learn what to buy.I have some old turnouts I bought but I don't trust them I will
> leave the layout like it is until they come in.
> One thing I need to know is were can you buy steam loco's at a good price, e-bay has some good 4-4-0s or 0-6-0
> steam I will have to watch who I deal with I bought a 4-4-0 that I had to send back it would not run right even they said they had checked it out.
> ...


Trainman11;

You're quite welcome to what help I can give. More accurate information from you would help. What brand of turnouts did you "just order two of each" of? Do you mean you ordered two Peco Insulfrogs, and two Peco Unifrogs? Or do you mean you just ordered two Micro Engineering and two Bachmann EZ-Track turnouts? Also, what brand of "old turnouts" do you have that you "don't trust?" Did you have problems with them? If you did, what were the problems? Maybe I can help you with information on how to fix them up. Some photos of the old turnouts would help a lot. The file below deals primarily with problems in the Atlas "Snap Switch" turnout. This is a very common turnout and there are thousands of them out there. Atlas also makes a seperate, different, line of turnouts called "Custom Line." The "Snap Switches" are the cheap ones and the "Custom Line" are the better quality Atlas turnouts.

I can't help you with your steam locomotive question. I have some N-scale Katos, which are very good, but not cheap. Have you looked at the "For Sale member to member" section of this forum? Maybe you can find a deal there. Do you have a train store near you? I have occasionally found the odd good deal at the one near me, but most items are full retail. I don't do e-bay, too risky in my opinion. Model Train Stuff has served me well, but I buy most of my stuff from the local train store.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

TRACTION FAN
I ordered 2 each PECO #5 insulfrog turnouts at modeltrainstuff as you said. The old turnouts are mosty ATLAS. I have had 2buys from E-BAY 1 was sent back because was not as good as I was told. I have the ATLAS infro will not buy any. Mid west has the best to get your order out the next day.
You are up kind of late last night
AL


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

Traction Fan
The turnouts I have are the following in stock ME #5a frog Standard turnout --L=2 R=2 ATLAS CUSTOM LINE--2-#4r==1 #6r
1 of these stops the loco every time. it is mirco eng. #5a
AL 
I don't know when they will ship the new turnouts,in the meantime I will use the 2 left ME


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> Traction Fan
> The turnouts I have are the following in stock ME #5a frog Standard turnout --L=2 R=2 ATLAS CUSTOM LINE--2-#4r==1 #6r
> 1 of these stops the loco every time. it is mirco eng. #5a
> AL
> I don't know when they will ship the new turnouts,in the meantime I will use the 2 left ME


Trainman11;

Thank you for the information. It sounds like we may be back to the same place that you started, with your loco stalling on the isolated frog of the Micro Engineering turnout. Does this same stall happen with other locomotives, or just one? 
If it's just one loco that stalls on the frog of the Micro Engineering turnout, but your other locos roll right through it, you have two choices of what to do about that particular loco. stalling. The simple one is to just accept that this loco isn't going to make it through the turnout, and stop using that loco, let it become a "Roundhouse queen" static display.

The next simplest choice would be to install a "frog juicer" commercial circuit board on that turnout. Once its hooked up according to the directions that come with it, You should be able to run your problem loco through the Micro Engineering turnout without stalling. You also won't need to switch the frog polarity with a toggle switch or anything like that. The little frog juicer circuit board does that for you, automatically.

To understand why that loco stalled in the first place, you need to understand a bit about how a turnout works electrically. By this I don't mean anything about some electric device physically moving the point rails of the turnout from one route to the other. Rather, I mean how electricity gets from the rails up into the motor inside a model loco.
I'll try to keep this explanation as simple as I can. First off, I suspect that your loco stalls because it only picks up power from the track on a few of its wheels. Is this loco steam, or diesel? How old is the model? Could you send me a couple of photos of the stalling loco, including a bottom view? That would really help.
If my assumption about the loco's limited wheel electrical pickup is correct, then here's why it stalls. At some point in their travels, that loco's few pickup wheels are going to end up on top of the frog.
Since you don't have the frog wired up to a frog juicer, or a toggle switch, or anything else, the frog is "dead", with no electricity getting to it. So the loco stops on the frog, since it can't get any electricity from it. The same thing will happen whenever that loco encounters any other dead frog.

Since you're still having engine stalling, I may owe you an apology. The Peco Insulfrogs I recommended have plastic frogs, which are electrically "dead" and can't be powered because they are plastic. I made that recommendation of Insulfrogs because 1) It's an excellent quality turnout that seldom causes a derailment. 2) You specifically asked about wanting to avoid wiring up a frog, and switching it's polarity.

If what you want is for the problem loco to get through the turnout, Then you will have to have a metal frog which is connected to some sort of electrical switch, or a frog juicer. The Peco Unifrogs I also suggested, as an alternative, would be able to be hooked up this way. The Peco "Electrofrog can also be hooked up the same way. So can your Micro Engineering turnouts, and even your Atlas Custom Line turnout, since Custom Line turnouts are supposed to have metal frogs.

If the problem loco making it through turnouts is something you really want badly, can you ask modeltrainstuff to switch your order from Peco Insulfrogs to Unifrogs" If they can't change the order, because it has already been shipped, perhaps they will do an exchange for you. This will only be necessary if you are dead set on using the one problem loco, or if all your locos stall on the Micro engineering turnout. If your other locos all run through the Micro Engineering without stalling, and you're willing to just park the one stalling loco, then the Insulfrogs will work with any locos that roll right through the Micro Engineering turnout. I'm sorry if I caused you grief, I didn't mean to.

Ironically, the big advantage of a metal frog is that it can be powered, which helps locos with few power pickup wheels make it through the turnout smoothly. 
If you look at a turnout, you can see that the frog will be the right-hand rail for one of the two possible routes a train can take through the turnout. On the other route though, the frog will be the left-hand rail. If we connected a wire from the frog to one of the rails that feed into the turnout, the problem loco would sail right through, but only on one route. If we left the frog connected to that same rail, then set the points to the other route, and tried to run the loco through the turnout, the loco would cause a real short circuit when it entered the frog. This is why which rail the frog is electrically connected to, needs to change, whenever the points are set to a different route. 

Traction Fan


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

Traction fan
let's put in frog juicer and then they all will work, let me know where to get one and will one run them all or will we need 1 for each turn out that is a problem That loco is not the only one that will stop, it is according to how fast or weight is behind it to push it on. The small 2-6-0's and 0-6-0 have a problem and I have 4-5 of them they all don't stop for some reason.The reason for all the small loco's is I use a 4x8 plywood. I ordered a loco 1 time and that thing was a foot long
so I sent it back. The small stuff is easier to build track for. I don't have turnout with elec frog or metal. When the train stops it will short out others on track. I know it's like pulling teeth trying to get infro from me
I WILL LEARN AND DO BETTER AL


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> Traction fan
> let's put in frog juicer and then they all will work, let me know where to get one and will one run them all or will we need 1 for each turn out that is a problem That loco is not the only one that will stop, it is according to how fast or weight is behind it to push it on. The small 2-6-0's and 0-6-0 have a problem and I have 4-5 of them they all don't stop for some reason.The reason for all the small loco's is I use a 4x8 plywood. I ordered a loco 1 time and that thing was a foot long
> so I sent it back. The small stuff is easier to build track for. I don't have turnout with elec frog or metal. When the train stops it will short out others on track. I know it's like pulling teeth trying to get infro from me
> I WILL LEARN AND DO BETTER AL


 Trainman11;

Actually you do have some turnouts with metal frogs. I think you said that you have three Micro Engineering turnouts, and two Atlas Custom Line turnouts. All five of those should have metal frogs that can be powered. The Micro Engineering turnouts only come with isolated metal frogs, plastic is not an option from Micro Engineering. If your Atlas turnouts are really Custom Line and not Snap Switch, then they should have cast metal frogs, with a tab on one side that has a hole in it. That tab is for connecting a wire to the frog with a small screw. As far as I know one frog juicer will only handle one turnout. So, you might need one for each turnout. I use micro-switches to change the polarity of my turnout frogs. I have not used a frog juicer myself. I will ask the forum about the idea of hooking one frog juicer to more than one turnout, because I don't know for sure whether that's possible. Thanks for telling me that you use a bunch of small steam engines. if they are the "tank engine" type without a tender, or if they're older Bachmann steamers with tenders that don't pick up power, that makes sense as far as my dead frog theory goes. What doesn't make sense is the short that stops all the locomotives on the layout. Does that happen when a locomotive stops on the Micro Engineering turnout? as for where to get a frog juicer, www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com or any other dealer should sell them. You might order just one for now just to try it out. If you order it from model train stuff, ask about returning the Peco Insulfrog turnouts, and getting some Unifrogs instead. If your locos are stalling on the dead frog, they will probably also stall on the plastic frogs of those Peco Insulfrog turnouts.

Traction Fan


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

the atlas turnouts have the place to put a wire to the frog. also the instruction sheet with the mirco eng turnouts tell how to install the wire. I will call modeltrain stuff today and see if I can stop the order.
I'm begining to think that I need more study before I do anything more than cancel order today.
the 1-2 loco's will stop at 1 of the turnouts everytime. I think the wheels are to close together and both are on dead spots at same time.
I seem to put you to work on my problem. will let you know what Mtrainstuff says about order before i do anything
THANKS AL order has been shipped!


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> the atlas turnouts have the place to put a wire to the frog. also the instruction sheet with the mirco eng turnouts tell how to install the wire. I will call modeltrain stuff today and see if I can stop the order.
> I'm begining to think that I need more study before I do anything more than cancel order today.
> the 1-2 loco's will stop at 1 of the turnouts everytime. I think the wheels are to close together and both are on dead spots at same time.
> I seem to put you to work on my problem. will let you know what Mtrainstuff says about order before i do anything
> THANKS AL order has been shipped!


Trainman11;

I don't mind helping when I can.
If you want to learn more about turnouts then the file below, (which I've probably already sent to you), is a good place to start learning.
The file is long, and goes into a lot of different facts about turnouts. If you decide to read it, I recommend taking it slow, and in small bites. You can probably relate the descriptions of things like "isolated frogs", live" or "powered" frogs, "insulated" frogs," points" "guard rails", "flangeways", "throw bars" etc. by looking at the part of your turnout that fits the verbal description of the particular item that you have just read about. I've never had to return an item to model train stuff, but I've read here that they are a decent dealer and are good about handling returns They should be able to send you two Unifrog turnouts, or if you prefer, two Micro Engineering turnouts, once they have the Peco Insulfrogs back from you. Too bad you couldn't cancel the order. I guess they're just to darn good at prompt shipping of orders! 😄 
Either the Peco Unifrog,or the Micro Engineering will work equally well with your short locos. You are right about them not having very many power pickup wheels. Long ago, I had some early Bachmann switchers that only picked up power on two, and in one case, only one pair of wheels. I suggest that any future locomotives you buy should have all-wheel pick up. That makes things run much smoother. One thing you might try, just for the heck of it, is "double heading," meaning putting a second locomotive behind one of the locos that stall. The second locomotive might push the balky one past the frog. 

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

can anybody tell me what GAFFER'S TAPE is I may need some.
AL


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> can anybody tell me what GAFFER'S TAPE is I may need some.
> AL


AL;

"Gaffer's tape" is like the much more common "duct tape" but, "on steroids" meaning the adhesive on Gaffers tape is super strong. The name comes from a job title used in the motion picture and television industries. A "Gaffer" on a movie set, is a production crew member who is a sort of "jack of all trades. " A gaffer might do anything from arranging a set, to holding a microphone boom, to taping down cables so actors or crew members don't trip over them. To do that the gaffer uses, guess what, gaffers tape.
MichealE used gaffers tape to insulate the rails that are close together in the frog of a model turnout. You don't specifically need gaffers tape for this. Any tape, or nail polish can be used. Also, I don't think your turnout problem h has anything to do with those two frog rails shorting. I think its the dead frog. However, if you want to try tape, then plain old Scotch tape, masking tape, or duct tape, will work fine. There's nothing magical about gaffers tape. I suspect MichaelE just had some gaffers tape on hand. If you read the post "Peco #8 Turnout" below, you can read how Michael used the gaffers tape on the frog rails of his turnout.

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

this evening after reading your post I went to train station and ran trains for about 1 hr you know 1 loco stop at turnout
everything went right on by no problem, I have 1 thing that I did different I replaced the bachmann turnout with 
M ENGINEERING TURNOUT before I started, so I don't know the facts of that.
HAVE A NICE EVENING AL TOMMOROW WILL BE ANOTHER DAY


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I have about 40 atlas turnouts on my layout and it was a mistake. They’re the cheapies I got at the train show and got 20 for $100. I’m going to be replacing all of them with peco insulfrogs as I get enough money to pay for them. I tried to solder a wire to the point rail and the rail going into the frog so it would help with electrical pickup on the lead track turnout for my mine and found out how bad of an idea that was when the crappy turnout melted almost immediately and now my mine is not able to be served. Long story short don’t waste money on crappy turnouts. As a mechanic I’ll say the same thing with models as I do my tools. The saying I live by is buy once cry once as far as tools and track will be following this from here forward too


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## rdj6737 (Aug 9, 2017)

MichaelE said:


> There doesn't appear to be a tread width standard listed in the NMRA guide, and could not find anything in the NEM standards either.
> 
> Noting the above, some wheel tread widths are slightly wider than others and will bridge the two converging rails at a turnout frog resulting in shorting out the entire layout. It can also be caused from out of gauge wheels that CTValley noted. However, if the wheels are spaced too far apart (we're talking thousandths of an inch here) it could cause other problems other than only shorting out on turnout frogs.


 NMRA Standard S-4.2 covers Scale Wheels and S-4.3 covers Wheels with Deep Flanges. NMRA Recommended Practice RP-25 covers Wheel Contour. A NMRA gauge also has a slot on it that is a no-go for tire width. My NMRA HO Mark II and IV gauges slots measure 0.104 - 0.105". It is a minimum only, a tire should not fall into the slot.
Most HO wheel tires measure about .110" nominal, per the older deep flange standard ( the newer standard is 0.110" minimum) thus NMRA called these Code 110 wheels. Many modelers are switching to a more semi-scale width tire 0.088", nicknamed Code 88. They usually work on most well-made switches and track-work, but can sometimes fall into the gap.
Real wheels measure about 5 1/2". In HO that is 0.063", so even the semi-scale Code 88 is wider than prototype-87.1 HO scale.

Some times the wide tire thread bridges the gap at the switch frog, but the other place that shorts often occur is at the points . The back of the wheels may rub on a point that powered at the opposite polarity [being powered by the non-insulating frog]. Rubbing rarely causes derailing. In DC powered systems it is often never noticed by slow-acting circuit-breakers, at worst causing flickering. But in DCC systems the momentary short is detected by very fast-acting electronics and the system stops and reboots.

"DCC- friendly" switches do not put opposite polarity to the point when it is open. The frog must be insulated or gapped from the points.

Reynold
Puyallup


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Thanks for the info about the wheel tread width. I'll have to look again for NEM standards.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

With Atlas Custom line you need to use a screw to hold the wire to the frog, its like unsolderable material! I think I ran a tap thru the hole first. My whole way of laying rail changed when I discovered I could make my own turnouts using CV ties. I think I made about 3 turnouts before they started turning out better then Atlas turnouts. Also improves your soldering skills! check out Central Valley Model Train Supply CVT Track for laying rail and for turnout tie strips or The Proto:87 Stores for some great turnout kits. The proto 87 stores cheaper kits are bargain as they include their really nice machined point rails. Their frog rails are nice, but to complex and messy to assemble, easier to make your own using a cheap wooden geometry jig.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> this evening after reading your post I went to train station and ran trains for about 1 hr you know 1 loco stop at turnout
> everything went right on by no problem, I have 1 thing that I did different I replaced the bachmann turnout with
> M ENGINEERING TURNOUT before I started, so I don't know the facts of that.
> HAVE A NICE EVENING AL TOMMOROW WILL BE ANOTHER DAY


Trainman;

I don't know what you mean when you say you "went to the train station." I'm guessing you mean you went to your layout and ran trains, unless your layout is actually inside a train station! 😄 (Wouldn't that be cool!) I'm not surprised that you got better running when you replaced the Bachmann turnout with a Micro Engineering turnout. Bachmann EZ-Track turnouts (from everything I've read about them) are lousy, and Micro Engineering turnouts are excellent. 

Hang in there;

Traction Fan🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Jscullans said:


> I have about 40 atlas turnouts on my layout and it was a mistake. They’re the cheapies I got at the train show and got 20 for $100. I’m going to be replacing all of them with peco insulfrogs as I get enough money to pay for them. I tried to solder a wire to the point rail and the rail going into the frog so it would help with electrical pickup on the lead track turnout for my mine and found out how bad of an idea that was when the crappy turnout melted almost immediately and now my mine is not able to be served. Long story short don’t waste money on crappy turnouts. As a mechanic I’ll say the same thing with models as I do my tools. The saying I live by is buy once cry once as far as tools and track will be following this from here forward too


Jscullans;

While I don't disagree with your desire to replace your Atlas "Snap Switch" turnouts (the kind you call "the crappy ones")* with Peco turnouts, there are other things to consider.

1) The meltdown  What you experienced is not likely to actually be the fault of the Atlas turnout. Soldering wires to rails on practically any model track, or turnout, which has a plastic tie strip, can easily cause the kind of melting you had. I have had plastic damage on Peco turnouts as well. That doesn't mean the Pecos aren't better quality than the Atlas, they are, much better, in several ways, notably not causing derailments. But the simple fact is that the melting point of most plastics is well below the melting point of solder. When I need to solder a wire to a rail I use heat sinks and a 30 watt soldering iron, and I don't keep the iron on the rail very long either. Even with these precautions, I have had plastic tiestrip material start to change shape a little bit when soldering. Fortunately the "mild melting" is seldom enough to really hurt anything. It is a good idea to use an NMRA gauge to check the rail spacing after the track has cooled down. Sometimes even the mild melt can move a rail enough to affect the track gauge, though this is quite rare, and can be corrected.

2) Cost. Peco turnouts retail for about $20-$30 each. Multiply that by your 40 turnouts and you have a potential cost of $800- $1200. That's a whole lot of money!
Hopefully you will find a deal, and be able to get them at a lower cost, but replacing 40 turnouts ain't gonna be cheap, no matter how you slice it. Also, Peco turnouts do not come with an attached switch machine. So that's more cost to consider. Peco does make two very good twin-coil switch machines which snap onto the bottom, or side, of their turnouts. However, they are "sold separately" advertising phrase meaning you have to pay more money if you want remote control. Peco turnouts do come with a built-in spring which makes them very reliable manual turnouts, so you may not need switch machines on every one. You could also use Tortoise motors, or servos, but again, they cost money. A cheaper, & ridiculously simple to build, alternative is the $5 switch machine in the files attached below. 
 One way of cutting the cost of turnouts substantially is to build your own. The cost of materials is about $5 each, the same that you paid for your Atlas turnouts. Scratchbuilt turnouts will also be very much more reliable that the Atlas Snap Switches, and unlike them, should also keep working reliably for many years. The catch is that while you save plenty of money, you have to invest plenty of time. The file "How I scratchbuild turnouts" (attached) explains the process in detail. 

3)  Atlas turnouts can be fixed.  The two most common problems Atlas Snap Switches have are a tendency for causing derailments, and melting of a coil in the Atlas switch machine. Both are fixable. The fixes in my file "Improving Atlas turnouts" (attached) won't turn your Atlas turnouts into Pecos, but they will cut way down on derailments. The coil melting in the Atlas switch machine can be prevented altogether by a simple circuit called a Capacitive Discharge Unit (CDU) One of these CDUs can protect all 40 turnouts. A third problem that's been on the forum several times is a short circuit between the two short rails coming out of the frog. Often this is inadvertently caused by the modeler. Some, (including me when I was a newbie) try to fix the annoying bounce of cars as they pass through the frog by filing down the frog point. This exposes the rails, or at least part of them, and a passing metal wheel can then short the two rails to each other. Ironically the real cure for car bounce is not lowering the frog point by filing, but just the opposite, filling in part of the frog's flangeways with styrene strips to raise the frog floor. 

4)  Insulfrogs have plastic frogs, just like those "crappy" Atlas Snap Switches.  While the Peco "Insulfrog" is an excellent turnout in general, I does have a plastic frog which obviously can never be powered. Peco "Electrofrogs", and their new "Unifrog" models have metal frogs which do offer you the option of being powered, or not, as you choose. The Unifrog also comes with the "DCC friendly" configuration factory-installed. The Electrofrog can be modified to the DCC friendly configuration fairly easily. A powered frog is handy for locomotives that don't have all-wheel electrical pickup. Check out the rest of this thread. The OP, TRAINMAN 11, is having this kind of problem because he has not connected power to the metal frogs of his turnouts. 

Good Luck with whatever you choose;

Traction Fan 🙂

* Atlas's better quality turnouts are called "Cusom Line."


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

TRACTION FAN
After reading your note above I think you like micro Engineering turnouts are they as good as Peco electfrog.
I should get my order friday I think I will call Trainstuff in the morning to see if they will swap the peco's I ordered.
I played with my trains today and found out the Diesel loco's stay on track better than my 0-6-0 loco's it seems that they
climb up the rails in my corners. 
AL


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Jscullans said:


> I have about 40 atlas turnouts on my layout and it was a mistake. They’re the cheapies I got at the train show and got 20 for $100. I’m going to be replacing all of them with peco insulfrogs as I get enough money to pay for them. I tried to solder a wire to the point rail and the rail going into the frog so it would help with electrical pickup on the lead track turnout for my mine and found out how bad of an idea that was when the crappy turnout melted almost immediately and now my mine is not able to be served. Long story short don’t waste money on crappy turnouts. As a mechanic I’ll say the same thing with models as I do my tools. The saying I live by is buy once cry once as far as tools and track will be following this from here forward too


This wisdom should be stamped in everyone's forehead who gets into this hobby! Yes, very few model railroaders (I'll exclude Rod Stewart, Warren Buffet, and a few others) have unlimited funds to throw at our hobby, but the point bears repeating: DON'T go cheap!! Sometimes, you can find a really good deal on quality stuff, but most of the time, you're just throwing money (and your precious hobby time -- and NO ONE has an unlimited supply of that) down the drain. Just look at how many threads we have of people having problems making junk work. Pay a little more for good tools, and quality products, and you won't regret it.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> TRACTION FAN
> After reading your note above I think you like micro Engineering turnouts are they as good as Peco electfrog.
> I should get my order friday I think I will call Trainstuff in the morning to see if they will swap the peco's I ordered.
> I played with my trains today and found out the Diesel loco's stay on track better than my 0-6-0 loco's it seems that they
> ...


Trainman11;

You're right, I do like Micro Engineering turnouts, and I also like Peco turnouts. Either Micro Engineering or Peco Unifrog or Electrofrog should work well for you. All three have metal frogs that can be powered, and a powered frog is what you will need to get your little 0-6-0 loco through the turnout. 
To do any good the metal frog of whatever brand turnout you buy, will need to be connected to a frog juicer, or micro-switch, so that the frog polarity changes as needed. I asked the question "can one frog juicer change the polarity on more than one turnout" over on the "General Model Train discussion part of this forum. Have a look at it if you want. I got several answers. The general drift was no, unless you want to be very careful about how the several frogs attached to the same frog juicer are approached by trains. That sounds to me like more trouble than its worth.
Another response mentioned a "Hex frog juicer that can control the frogs of up to six turnouts. I had not heard of that device before.
If your concern is about the cost of multiple frog juicers, there are several types of electrical switches that can do the same job. They cost less, but require more work to get functioning.

Are Micro Engineering turnouts as good as Peco? Yes, but there are some disadvantages to the Micro Engineering turnout vs. the Peco Unifrog turnout. The Micro Engineering turnouts have practically no selection. They make a # 6 right-hand turnout, and a # 6 left-hand turnout. That's all in N-scale, and there isn't much more in HO scale either. The only other turnouts in HO are parts of a # 5 compressed "yard ladder." ( A string of shortened turnouts in a row.)
Otherwise, it's only #6 right-hand & # 6 left-hand in either HO or N. Peco has a lot more selection including Small, Medium, & large turnouts and curved turnouts. Micro Engineering turnouts are more realistic looking. The Peco turnouts are based on British prototypes and the Micro Engineering turnouts are based on American prototypes. Th ME turnouts also have small, near scale size spike detail. This helps them look real, but it also means you have to be a little bit gentle installing them. Pecos are much more ruggedly constructed. Overall I'd say the two brands are so close in quality that you can flip a coin, buy either, and end up with an excellent turnout either way.

Keep Having Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I saw a post on this thread where people make their own turnouts. Is there a jig or something to make them yourself? If so I would be interested in that to hopefully keep my turnout cost down if it’s a logical thought


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

These guys have just about everything you need: Fast Tracks - Helping the World Build Better Railroads


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Jscullans said:


> I saw a post on this thread where people make their own turnouts. Is there a jig or something to make them yourself? If so I would be interested in that to hopefully keep my turnout cost down if it’s a logical thought


Jscullans;

Yes, as flyboy has pointed out, there are turnout building jigs available from Fast Tracks. The jigs themselves are expensive, but presumably they make it easier to line up parts for soldering. I'll leave any further discussion of Fast Tracks jigs to those who have used them. I have never found it necessary to use a jig when making turnouts, and I've made dozens of working turnouts for my railroad, including crossovers, wyes, and a compressed-length yarr throat. (see photos)
If you read the file "How I scratchbuild turnouts," that I sent with some other turnout files, in response to your earlier post, you will see how I do it using track gauges, a soldering iron, and common hobby hand tools. The first part of that file also has a detailed cost analysis, and a tool list. It also mentions that there are many different methods for making your own turnouts online. The one I use works very well, and produces a reliable and rugged turnout, but there are plenty of other methods out there. So, read my file, and/or contact Fast Tracks, or go "turnout building method" hunting online. You should find something that will work for you. I've repeated the file below in case you didn't see it before.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

traction fan
I ordered the mirco engineering code 70, #5. I already have some so I just ordered what I have now. they were cheaper than Peco too. I have added to my layout but I'm waiting for track and the turnouts. I don't know if they will take the peco back but I bought some anyway. I think they will take them back. I've reading some of your articles how long have you been railroading. I started 1 year ago with $20 setup box at trade day used.
I always run my train at 50mph on gauge but I think if i run them slower they would stay on track all the time.
THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AL What part of country do you live


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> traction fan
> I ordered the mirco engineering code 70, #5. I already have some so I just ordered what I have now. they were cheaper than Peco too. I have added to my layout but I'm waiting for track and the turnouts. I don't know if they will take the peco back but I bought some anyway. I think they will take them back. I've reading some of your articles how long have you been railroading. I started 1 year ago with $20 setup box at trade day used.
> I always run my train at 50mph on gauge but I think if i run them slower they would stay on track all the time.
> THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AL What part of country do you live


Trainman11;

You're quite welcome.

I'm 72 and I have been involved with model trains of some sort for about 60 years. I started out with Lionel and Marx O-gauge, switched to HO-sale as a teenager, and then to N-scale as an adult. I'm assuming by "How long have you been railroading?" you mean model railroading. I have never worked for a real railroad company. 

I live in San Diego, California.


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

traction fan
I'm 78 and started back running trains 9 months ago now. I caught my patents putting a train set on some plywood when I was 5-7 yrs old. I ordered the Micro eng turnouts over week end, called a min ago to get permisson to send
back the PECO. the new ones are Mirco eng. 
THANKS A LOT FOR HELP I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN. AL


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

I never ever had a short-out problem with an 'all-live' Atlas CustomLine switch or Peco Insulfrog I had on my last layout..
Engines with short wheel bases, like the 4 wheel "little Hustler" or an 0-4-0T steam might sometimes stall on them due to an open circuit caused by minimum pickup ability of the engine thru the frog..


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Look at kits from The Proto:87 Stores the fast and easy kits. These use Central Valley tie strips which is what I use. I made a wooden jig just to get the frog geometry correct and I use a few PC ties soldered to the rail to insure stable geometry. When I first looked at this, I though making your own turnouts was impossible. So I tried a few and discovered that it was interesting, fun and not impossible (at least for me). It changed how I lay track as I now use CV ties and glue the rail to the ties -- no more flex track, no track nails and as a bonus using PC ties allows a completely hidden track power connection.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

TRAINMAN11 said:


> traction fan
> I'm 78 and started back running trains 9 months ago now. I caught my patents putting a train set on some plywood when I was 5-7 yrs old. I ordered the Micro eng turnouts over week end, called a min ago to get permisson to send
> back the PECO. the new ones are Mirco eng.
> THANKS A LOT FOR HELP I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN. AL


Trainman11;

You're welcome. You might benefit from the book "Getting Started in Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. It covers a wide variety of model railroad topics in simple text and many photos. You can order a copy at www.amazon.com

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

I just installed 2 micro-eng turnouts about 12ft apart and nothing will run in between. loco stops at first turnout and starts back up after second turnout. NO POWER IN BETWEEN THEM there is about 5-6ft between them.
HELP PLEASE
THANKS AL


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I would simply add a power drop to that dead section.


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## TRAINMAN11 (Mar 22, 2020)

That is what I did, and it fixed the problem. I used some phone wire. The wire I had was hard to solder to rail
THANKS AL I thought that I had a real problem


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Get some liquid flux for electronics and paint a little on the rail and the wire. If you have some alligator clips, clip them to the rail on each side of the joint (about a 1/4 inch from the joint on each side), to act as heat sinks so you don't destroy the ties. Touch the soldering iron (pencil) to the rail and wire joint and when the flux starts to smoke touch the solder to the rail and wire for a second or 2 and your done. Clean it with a little Alcohol. Telephone wire is probably not the best to use. Might try some 20 or 22 gauge stranded wire if its a short 2 or 3ft run, other wise try 18 gauge. If you think you used too little solder, you probably used the right amount!


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

I’ve used 20 gauge drops on my layout for my main line but used smaller drops at industries. I hate how the thicker wire looks


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## Dave NYC 1962 (Oct 17, 2020)

Lemonhawk said:


> Get some liquid flux for electronics and paint a little on the rail and the wire. If you have some alligator clips, clip them to the rail on each side of the joint (about a 1/4 inch from the joint on each side), to act as heat sinks so you don't destroy the ties. Touch the soldering iron (pencil) to the rail and wire joint and when the flux starts to smoke touch the solder to the rail and wire for a second or 2 and your done. Clean it with a little Alcohol. Telephone wire is probably not the best to use. Might try some 20 or 22 gauge stranded wire if its a short 2 or 3ft run, other wise try 18 gauge. If you think you used too little solder, you probably used the right amount!


Lemonhead . How long should it take to heat the joint hot enough? I have a 25w iron and it seems to take way too long (30+ secs). The solder won’t melt, but I’ve melted a ton of ties. I’m going to try your alligator clip trick next time though.

TIA, Dave


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Lemonhawk said:


> Look at kits from The Proto:87 Stores the fast and easy kits. These use Central Valley tie strips which is what I use. I made a wooden jig just to get the frog geometry correct and I use a few PC ties soldered to the rail to insure stable geometry. When I first looked at this, I though making your own turnouts was impossible. So I tried a few and discovered that it was interesting, fun and not impossible (at least for me). It changed how I lay track as I now use CV ties and glue the rail to the ties -- no more flex track, no track nails and as a bonus using PC ties allows a completely hidden track power connection.


I didn't think it possible to use CA glue for glueing rail to ties but it is quite possible and it works very well. I'm not into building dual gauge turnouts just yet, but for an HOm rail between the HO rails the glue works well.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

All my rail is glued to the ties with Pliobond contact cement. A 25 watt pencil may not be big enough. its also a possibility that your tip is not cleaned and properly tinned. Also small binder clips will work as heat sinks, the key is to apply a lot of heat quickly. Another thing is to "tin" both the wire and the rail first before mating. That might be a better approach with a light 25 watt pencil. First apply flux then tin both then hold them together and reheat. Keeping the tip clean is important, try using one of the metal sponge like things to keep the tip clean. Also check your solder. Some of the newer tin free solder takes a much higher temperature to melt than the old multi rosin core 60/40 solder.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Dave NYC 1962 said:


> Lemonhead . How long should it take to heat the joint hot enough? I have a 25w iron and it seems to take way too long (30+ secs). The solder won’t melt, but I’ve melted a ton of ties. I’m going to try your alligator clip trick next time though.
> 
> TIA, Dave



Dave;,

I found that a 25 watt iron was a little too small even for my code 55 rail, N-scale, track. It will work, but it will take longer to heat the rail to the point where the rail will melt the solder. That's what you need for a good joint of rail to wire, for the rail to melt the solder. Unfortunately, plastic ties melt at a lower temperature than solder does. Also, using heat sinks, while a great idea, means that your 25 watt iron may not work, since some of its limited heat will be siphoned off into the heat sinks.

Here's what I recommend. First get a 30 watt iron. I have found this size works well, and a 40 watt is too much. What kind of solder are you using? It should be 60/40 rosin core solder for electronics soldering. Do not use acid core solder. That is used in plumbing and heated with a gas torch. It will ruin your solder joint!
Smaller diameter solder is nice, though not essential, for model railroad use. Kester is one excellent brand of solder.
Everything involved in making a good solder joint has to be shiny clean! Any dull colored oxidation on the tip of the soldering iron, the rail, or the wire, will prevent heat transfer and often make it impossible to solder things together at all. I use a soldering iron stand with a wet sponge in the base. I wipe the tip of the iron on the wet sponge just before applying it to the item I want to solder.

Both the rail, and the wire, should be "tinned" with a thin coating of solder before trying to join them. The soldering iron's tip should also be tinned.
Some tips for soldering irons are made of actual iron metal, with a coating of other metal. The outside coating will accept solder, and therefore can be "tinned" with it. Iron metal will not accept solder at all. The solder will just roll off it in beads. If the coating is worn off an iron tip, then it's time to replace the tip. Since soldering iron tips are hard to find sold separately, I use heavy gauge copper wire for my soldering iron tips. This will accept solder very well. After a certain amount of use, and exposure to flux, the copper tip will get coated in oxide. I clean that off with a wire brush, and then re-tin the tip with fresh solder.

Like solder, there are several different types of soldering flux. The purpose of flux is to help clean off any oxide that may have formed on the wire or rail. I use a water-based paste flux from Home Depot. As Lemonhawk mentioned, soldering flux is also available in liquid form. Either will work, just don't use any flux intended to be used with acid core solder. That very powerful chemical flux will ruin the joint, and may even attack the rail.

Clean any weathering off the small area of the outside of the rail before trying to solder to it. Micro Engineering turnouts, and some of their flex track, come with weathered rail. This weathered coating, and any dirt or oxide, needs to be filed off the area where you will solder.
Attach your heat sinks*, then apply a tiny amount of flux, hold the solder next to the rail, and touch the clean part of the rail with the clean tip of the soldering iron. The solder should quickly flow onto the rail. Only a thin coating is needed for now. Next tin the tip of the wire. If you're using stranded wire, (recommended) then twist the strands together into one tight bundle, apply flux, heat the wire and touch the solder to it. The solder should flow quickly, and easily, in between the strands, and form them into one combined wire. Apply a little solder to the iron. Using needle nosed pliers, hold the tinned wire alongside the tinned spot on the rail, now touch the tip of the iron to the wire. Use the soldering iron tip to hold the wire tightly against the rail. The solder should flow easily over both the wire, and the rail. quickly pull the iron away, and hold the wire in place with the pliers until the solder joint cools down. You should now be able to tug on the wire without pulling it off the rail. The solder should stay shiny. That's it. You have just made a perfect solder joint.

Good Luck & Have Fun:

Traction Fan 🙂

*Alligator clips make good heat sinks, but you can also use paper towels soaked with cold water, & draped across the track, on either side of the solder joint area.


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## Jscullans (Jul 8, 2019)

When I was doing my track laying for my layout I got a little tin of flux from the local parts store and used a small paint brush to apply a SMALL amount of the flux to the rail joiners. This allowed the solder to flow into the rail joiners better


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## Dave NYC 1962 (Oct 17, 2020)

traction fan said:


> Dave;,
> 
> I found that a 25 watt iron was a little too small even for my code 55 rail, N-scale, track. It will work, but it will take longer to heat the rail to the point where the rail will melt the solder. That's what you need for a good joint of rail to wire, for the rail to melt the solder. Unfortunately, plastic ties melt at a lower temperature than solder does. Also, using heat sinks, while a great idea, means that your 25 watt iron may not work, since some of its limited heat will be siphoned off into the heat sinks.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great advice. I have code 55 track too. I see I need a better iron and I need to be more careful and meticulous.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Dave NYC 1962 said:


> Thanks for the great advice. I have code 55 track too. I see I need a better iron and I need to be more careful and meticulous.


Dave;

There are a lot f "How to solder" videos online. You might want to check a few of them out. Verbal description is fine, but it helps to actually see how it's done.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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