# Lionel Truck Study



## T-Man

Bar End Truck Postwar Era









Shoe contact needing the fourth and fifth rail.It operated the coupler or a coil.









Coil coupler









Staple end that predated the Bar End









Scout Coupler from the late 40's,not compatible with the standard coupler.









Bottom plate became the adapter for the Scout truck by reversing the truck and attachinig it to the axles.









Roller plate for interior lighting.










A Prewar coupler frame mounted. Hook and Bow or Hook and Butterfly.









The Box End and Hook replaced the Bow and was attached to the truck. The journals were black or nickel. The earlier trucks had none.









Both the box and bow had trucks with journals.


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## Reckers

Nice overview, T-Man. I always learn a lot from your stuff. Thanks for sharing!


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## T-Man

I don't have a picture of the modern American Flyer Knuckle truck, that replaced the bar and hook.


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## T-Man

*Coupler Conversion*

All scales have different brands and over time may not be compatible. You could take out a second mortgage and buy new, or improvise. With Lionel you want to keep them original but you also want to pull them too.
What to do?
For steam engines you just need a tender with a particular coupler. An advantage over diesels. Swtich tenders switch era. 
Then the next step is making a conversion car. With this idea, it has a different coupler on each end, so it would sit between two types of cars. Reckers, you can do this with the old and new AF trucks.
Another option is to make an adapter. Lionel did make two. They may still be available from independant part dealers. They do extend the distance between cars. Nothing beats a handy piece of wire.


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## Reckers

T-Man, you've touched on a sort of moral dilemma I have, and I admit it's probably silly. I just hate the idea of altering a car that's survived 50-60 years and is of increasingly-dwindling supply. That said, I have no problem with swapping the couplers to standardize my fleet, as they can easily be swapped right back. Since my girlfriend thought a passenger train would be cool to have (I lean toward freight), I looked into them. $100 or so for three cars was too much for my frugal soul. My solution is my current search for parts; I can alter and repaint without moral pangs. I'm also bidding on a replacement shell for that Game Train locomotive I got from Big Ed. The idea is to take the new shell and all of my constructed cars and give them matching paint jobs so she'll have her own outfit with a matched (by color) set of cars and engine. Once I get started, I'll do a "how to" with photos on swapping the old link coupler for the knuckle coupler.


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## T-Man

That where Lionel has an advantage, there is plenty of used cars in all types of condition. If I can do a refurb tuneup, I can save it.
I would use a junk car as an adapter with two different trucks. I hate the idea of removing riveted trucks that's why I am offering suggestions.


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## Reckers

T-Man, that's a point I hadn't considered, and by the way, I do appreciate the suggestions. Since I plan (parts willing!) to scratch-build two cars from truckless Lionel/AF frames I've ordered, there's no issue with drilling out the rivets. I've acquired 2 sets of powered-car trucks with the link couplers; since these are brand-new, I have no problem with reworking the couplers to knuckles. However, if I get additional passenger cars from ebay, they might be link or knuckles, so building two transition cars might be a good idea. It would leave the old cars with their original couplers. Now, I have to figure out how I'm going to make some of those copper pickup springs for the trucks and keep them insulated from the frames; on the ones i want to build, I want to find some very small led's for overhead illumination, inside the cars.


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## Reckers

PS: this will end up being my fiance's train, so it has to be showy. *L* The junk car has to look as good as the rest! It's already looking like it will have a candy-apple red engine and cars.


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## Big Ed

Lionel Truck Study 101 it should have been titled.:thumbsup:


T.....................have you ever found a place that sells those replacement shoes complete?

Have you replaced many? Did you ever replace any?
I haven't yet.

How critical is the measurement where the shoe rides the rail do you think?


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## T-Man

I haven't done any shoes. They have parts though. SHoe ,rivet, and insulator. The shoe rides a spring so no much is critical. I have more I have to post. I just install two 6019's and a ucs track section so I am getting there.


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## T-Man

An early O scale truck, Lionel, about 1920 to 1925.









An old American Flyer latch.









From the 1920's, a Dorfan O scale gondola.


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## T-Man

*Coil Couplers*

I was checking my 3451 dump car when I noticed one truck was turning hard. WHen I first got the car the knuckles were drooping so I squared them off. This worked for one side but the other had problems.

The knuckle sits on a thin brackett the coil is tied to the coupler and parrallel to the brackett. My problem was that the coil was sitting high and rubbed against the frame. So to fix Ihad to bend down the brackett and then bend the coil parrallel to the brackett to lower it and fix the problem.

Just in case any one of you every has the same problem.

If you noticed I did not have the problem until I straightened the couplers the first time. A point to remember is , what you mess with, when you start to troubleshoot.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

EXCELLENT thread / synopsis. Two points ...

1. You might want to post a pic of your "new" 1668 tender coupler here. If I recall, that was a somwhat "unique" prewar box coupler with an automatic coil device, right?

2. Please confirm / correct my terminology ... "Hook and Bow or Hook and Butterfly" is the same as "Latch" style???

Thanks a bunch!

TJ


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## Stillakid

T-Man, great info!
I've had to replace several coils on some of my older cars. I wanted to take them off the 2460, but there was no replacement coupler that would extend that far. If I had it to do over, I would have just replaced all the coil couplers, with electro-magnetic couplers(coil in track section) Then I would have eliminated the need for 2 different styles of uncouplers.

Jim


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## T-Man

tjcruiser said:


> T-Man,
> 1. You might want to post a pic of your "new" 1668 tender coupler here. If I recall, that was a somewhat "unique" prewar box coupler with an automatic coil device, right?
> 
> 2. Please confirm / correct my terminology ... "Hook and Bow or Hook and Butterfly" is the same as "Latch" style???
> TJ


OK, I recently discovered that these couplers are the 2000 series. These are found on all prewar four digit rolling stock that begins with 2. I was outbid on ebay on two frames with these complete trucks. I lost interest after my first bid did not exceed the first bidder. You can't get everything, or you would have to call me a poor student. Right B&M!

Also I use the terms, Bow, Latch, and Butterfly interchangeably. Note A box style will work and connect with these.



































Jim, One thing I have not gotten to is working the automatic couplers. Some of mine are so bad I need twistie wire to hold them shut. I installed the track, but I have to make sure that is working right. Now, I am finding a need for an electrical diagram of the table.


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## tjcruiser

Thanks for the details, T-Man ... much appreciated!

TJ


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## Big Ed

T what do you mean when you said this?


I installed the track, but I have to make sure that is working right. Now, I am finding a need for an electrical diagram of the table. 

Your table? What track?

You mean to tell me that your putting in a S line?:laugh:


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## Stillakid

big ed, he said something about duplicating the one that you have in your private, hidden room!


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## Big Ed

Stillakid said:


> big ed, he said something about duplicating the one that you have in your private, hidden room!


So far I have only talked about my basement here.

I never said anything about my attic:laugh:











Don't let reckers know please. I told him that I gave him my only S engine I had.:smokin:


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## imatt88

T-man,

Thanks for the info. Stuff like this helps me out a lot. I have much to learn about trains


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## T-Man

big ed said:


> T what do you mean when you said this?
> 
> 
> I installed the track, but I have to make sure that is working right. Now, I am finding a need for an electrical diagram of the table.
> 
> Your table? What track?
> 
> You mean to tell me that your putting in a S line?:laugh:


I do have two AF engines and some cars I have owned since I started collecting in the 80's.
Back over Xmas break I installed a ucs track and two 6019's to get started on operating dump cars and couplers. With four transformers I forgot how I hooked them up.

I haven't decided on an S line. Transposing the track with O is interesting. I would have to work on an oval first then place it on trestles. I need to find matching curves first. or bend them.


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## Big Ed

T-Man said:


> Back over Xmas break I installed a ucs track and two 6019's to get started on operating dump cars and couplers. With four transformers I forgot how I hooked them up.
> 
> I haven't decided on an S line. Transposing the track with O is interesting. I would have to work on an oval first then place it on trestles. I need to find matching curves first. or bend them.




I dream of the day when I hit the big one.


I think a 100' x 100' unobstructed space would do.

Heat and central air climate controlled building.


And that's just for my O

Of course other buildings would be built for different gauges
For my S, 80' x 80'. 

TJ correct my calculations please.

50' x 50' for my HO as they are half the size of O.


And N........what do you think 33' x 33'.

Then for my garden G trains a 1/4 acre should do it. 

One I get that all done I will start another 100' x 100' for all the Tin Plate.:thumbsup:







When I win the big one.:laugh:



Of course I all ready got my 60' Sportsfisherman tied up to my 100' garaged floating dock.
My 1978, 25' Donzi w/t a 496 Chevy engine gassed and ready to cruise next to it.
In front of my waterside house with a few exotic old cars sitting in the drive.
All on BIG ED'S private, invitation only Island. 25 square miles with a light house should do it.


Private air strip for my 8 seat jet.:thumbsup:



When I win the big one.


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## tjcruiser

Big Ed,

Today's your golden day. Our local home boy Reckers says -- nay, guarantees -- that "Super Saver" is going to win the Derby. Put you're good money down, my friend ... put your good money down ... 

TJ


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## tjcruiser

Big Ed,

I hope you're out scouting for private islands right about now. Old Reck was right ... spot on the money.

Do us all a favor, and mark out a little corner of that 100' x 100' for the rest of us here at the forum ... when you fly us in on your private jet for "showings" ... OK ?!?!?

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Big Ed,
> 
> I hope you're out scouting for private islands right about now. Old Reck was right ... spot on the money.
> 
> Do us all a favor, and mark out a little corner of that 100' x 100' for the rest of us here at the forum ... when you fly us in on your private jet for "showings" ... OK ?!?!?
> 
> TJ



What were the odds on Super saver?:appl:


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## tjcruiser

I think he was 14:1 at post time, with about 19:2 payout after race.

Big bonus ... the jockey (Borel) on Super Saver has won 3 of the last 4 Kentucy Derbies. Guy certainly knows how to run the ponies on that track with that big field of horses. No doubt about that.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man,

There goes TJ off on another off-subject thread tangent. Dohh!

Now, back to you and Lionel Trucks ...

Sorry

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> T-Man,
> 
> There goes TJ off on another off-subject thread tangent. Dohh!
> 
> Now, back to you and Lionel Trucks ...
> 
> Sorry
> 
> TJ


I guess I have a hand in that too. Sorry T Man.






OK,....... back to Lionel trucks?



I got a box full somewhere.:thumbsup:


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## T-Man

My near Antique store has a Madison Hardware Commemorative Tractor trailer for 34. I have trouble displaying a small bus on my table neved mind a semi.

Back to Lionel Trucks. 
What is the most wanted? Well I discovered this while making my lighted waste car and the answer is the center roller truck. Without it your in the dark. I reviewed my posts and absent mindedly left out some details of the trucks I have used. The nice thing is that I have two options for getting around the use of this truck.

The first roller is from a postwar search light car. The base plate is nice since it can be changed to other trucks. The second is a prewar whistle tender. The truck is designed to hold it and is not interchangeable.











This is from my early 612. Again a special breacket is need to hold the roller assembly.









To get around direct lighting with a truck. You feed a wire from an adjoining car. Most passenger cars are coupled together anyway. The other is a bit more modern. Just get an LED, powered with a 2 aa batteries. The rig can be placed inside a coach with plenty of room and still stay out of view. To get tricky use a reed switch that can be operated with a magnet. This will allow you to turn the lights off and on.


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## Boston&Maine

big ed said:


> View attachment 2668


Which piece is not to scale, the big rig or the tanker? :dunno:


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## Big Ed

Boston&Maine said:


> Which piece is not to scale, the big rig or the tanker? :dunno:


It's only a 5000gal tanker.

Thats a real piece of tube rail and you can run the tanker if you want.

Does look kind of small. 
Have you seen the flatbeds with the Switcher engine or caboose on them?


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## T-Man

*Plastic Truck*

The last train show I got this flat car and the lever was broken. I didn't want to remove the rivet or replace the whole truck so I changed the lever. The second picture shows the catch from the top. Squeeze that and push and it will come out. The next picture shows the broken and replacement pieces.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I had ten K-Line cars that had the diecast trucks but the cheesy plastic lever. For some reason, the lever was too close to an axle, and the couplers didn't work. I noticed that the plastic levers were bowed, and if I heated them and bent them back, they'd just barely work. The tight tolerance bothered me, so I bought the parts to put the metal lever and spring on them, they work a ton better! I took the heat gun to the plastic parts and reformed them, they're in my spare parts now.


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## T-Man

*Knuckle Acutator*

Here are the two versions. One is the plastic and the other is the stronger rivet set up.










I have a plastic one that lost the metal cap. Guess I will have to find a metal tac.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I have the black tacks, I ordered the other things from Lionel, and due to the lousy descriptions, I ended up with 10 black tacks!  Both of those are the plastic trucks, the ones I was talking about were the die-cast trucks, but they had the left style junky plastic uncoupling lever. I reserve those for the plastic trucks. 

The interesting part was getting the plastic levers out from the die-cast trucks, you can't remove the wheels like you can on a plastic truck, the trucks are staked together. I had to twist the plastic thing into interesting shapes to get it out, but I saved 8 of the 10, not too bad. The other two broke in the process. Since the metal ones have a separate pin, spring, E-clip, etc. they're easy to put on without moving the wheels.


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## T-Man

*Pre War Bearing Journals*

I don't know the year they started. I do know the early models do not have them. They can be found in nickel, copper, and black.


An early O scale truck, Lionel, about 1920 to 1925.









A truck missing a journal and two detached journals.


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## tjcruiser

Good photo-study, T. Ed was just asking about these in another thread. I've removed / installed several of these ... easy to do ... the tabs are easy to bend into place, and I haven't broken one yet. I've been polishing my copper ones with a Dremel stainless brush, and then clear-coating them with airplane dope.

Note to all that the "hinge" line on the journal box goes on the top.

Cheers,

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Good photo-study, T. Ed was just asking about these in another thread. I've removed / installed several of these ... easy to do ... the tabs are easy to bend into place, and I haven't broken one yet. I've been polishing my copper ones with a Dremel stainless brush, and then clear-coating them with airplane dope.
> 
> Note to all that the "hinge" line on the journal box goes on the top.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> TJ



When you go to install the journals do you have to take the truck off?
Or can you pop them in while the truck is on?


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## tjcruiser

Ed,

You do NOT have to take the truck off, but you will likey have to bend the side-plates of the truck outward a bit to remove the axle/wheels prior to installing the journal. It shouldn't take too much effort ... the sideplates have a bit of "springiness" to them.

TJ


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## Big Ed

tjcruiser said:


> Ed,
> 
> You do NOT have to take the truck off, but you will likey have to bend the side-plates of the truck outward a bit to remove the axle/wheels prior to installing the journal. It shouldn't take too much effort ... the sideplates have a bit of "springiness" to them.
> 
> TJ


That is what I meant the axles and wheels.
OK thanks.

Did you ever try to put them on with the wheels in place?
Stick a small flat-head screwdriver or something to bend the tab?


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## tjcruiser

It's possible, I guess. But it's easy enough to pull the wheels/axles off, and then you would have much easier access to the journal tabs.

TJ


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## T-Man

*The latest problem*

Take a look











This a broken contact shoe the one piece needed to uncouple an old coil coupler and a more modern accessory car like the cattle boxcar. I found about sven of them right off that I own. They do tend to fail and fall off . Jim sent me a frame from a generator car and sure enoughoine was there and broke in my hand. So I figured out how to fix it. These old pices are so bad I intend to upgrade all that I own. That's right Ed epoxy .


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## T-Man

This repair I have the original pieces. I start with super glue and install one piece.











Then with the shoe in the pan I glue the second piece in and epoxy around the edges,










Then if you notice the rivet is lower so the answer is a dab of solder to raise the connection for the arm contact. I do grind the solder flat to help the connection.










After that is testing time, I did two this round.One I just added the epoxy for strength. Sure enough one has a coil problem. It is the coil, a bad connection.

For pieces I do not have I plan on using credit card stock cut to fit.


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## Big Ed

Good ole Epoxy.:thumbsup:

You ought to publish a book, like the duct tape guy.

10,001 ways to fix your trains with epoxy.:thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn

I use my rivet tool to rivet them back on, you can buy the shoes and rivets from most suppliers.


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## T-Man

I like the rivet, but are the boards any good? That's where they break.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I haven't broken a new one yet.  You normally don't need the shoe, just the little board and the rivet.


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## tjcruiser

Nice fix-it work, T!




T-Man said:


> For pieces I do not have I plan on using credit card stock cut to fit.


You're a man after my dreams! I've been stockpiling plastic credit-card style hotel keys and the like ... 1001 uses for the stuff!

Cheers,

TJ


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## T-Man

Some don't have anthing, the shoe is with the prince. they were bought that way.


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## T-Man

This is somethng new I replaced the couner weight for a coupler. In my 216 set I have a gondola without a weight. If I had a rivet set I could replace the whole truck but I today I just added the weight.

First I had to remove one from a spare. I used some homemade forks and suspended over a vise and punched out the weight.




















To install, I used a block under the shell, and a washer under the pin against the bottom.Then tapped it into place with a small hammer.










Good as new.


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## T-Man

*2000 series coupler*

This tender was a weat coast purchase two years ago with a 1668 engine. 
I got the piece from Hennings on ebay. Previously I removed the broken spear and cleared the slot.











I set the spear with a chisel backed by an alignment tool.










Two views of the box coupler.



















This is the coil, the tabs set down into the upside down truck.










The coil set in place.


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## T-Man

The cover holds it together with some slots.




























It is non working for now. Aim missing a rail shoe and the coil is not connected, I found only the center rail connection on the coil so Maybe the coil is grounded or I have broken connection.


The engine and tender. Unfortunately it does not have a whistle.


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## tjcruiser

I may have a rail shoe in the junk bin if you need it, T.

TJ


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## T-Man

I am going to need 4 or 5 . One of these days I need to make a parts order.
One of these days.............


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## T-Man

*Plastic AAR truck with a center roller/*

I fixed up a lighting rig for a purt hole caboose usinf Radio Shack parts. The bulb is a number 52, screw mount rated at 14,4 volts. I used stranded 22 gage wire to connect it up. I used metal clips for heat sink during the soldering around the plastic parts.




















I driled a 1/8th hole for the socket and used 8/32nd screw and locknut. I first had to bend the tab to get a good angle to drill it. Iset the tab against a block and drilled through the hole of the frame.










Just enough powe so it doesn't glare up the picture.


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## tjcruiser

T-Man said:


> I used metal clips for heat sink during the soldering around the plastic parts.


Clever.

Something tells me I would have been looking at a pool of melted plastic before an idea like that popped into my head!

(Though I do recall sharing someone else's tip about putting a ball of moist paper towel next to plastic track ties when one solders track rail together ... for the same reason.)

Cheers,

TJ


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## rogruth

T-Man,

Thanks for the comprehensive look at Lionel couplers.This will/should be of use to many.


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## T-Man

*Add a knuckle*

After reading about the repair in this forum I actually obtained the parts for the operation. I got a kit to replace four knuckles with reivets. I had some broken knuckles of some plastic trucks. One was the submarine flatcar I recently purchased. With no expensive rivet tool ( sorry John) I used a big nail, 20 penny I think. Worked great.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I put a lot of those on with a center-punch, don't be embarrassed using your nail.  I just found that it was a PITA to deal with them without the tool. The big issue is you need three hands to manage the nail, hold the car in place on the anvil, and swing the hammer.  With the rivet tool, two hands are sufficient.


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## T-Man

*wheels*

I recently bought a tanker and during a test run noticed that it was dragging. I used the Bruce method and oiled it. It helped. As usual I took it apart and found some rust on them. I also found a bent axle. Then I noticed these wheels. Broken where the axle comes out. They may have been drooped too many times or the wheels were forced on the axle or off. These are bar end tucks and the are swaged on the inner and outer side of the wheel. So with that gap, it acts like a trap, and stops the wheel from turning. Normaly you can just replace the whole axle set. I am just going to epoxy the hole and drill it out with a 3/32nd drill. That should do it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

you could just replace the wheel set, surely you have some broken trucks with extras...


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## T-Man

*Truck alignment*

I know but what fun is that? The epoxy will just be enough to fill the hole . I had to grind the swage to get the wheels off the axle.

I look at the truck frame head on to see if it is square. Dropping can warp it out of shape. Often I find the knuckle bent out of position. A set of pliers and a good eye should straighten it. My macro setting doesn't help here and shows distortion. I just compare it to a good truck and bend away






[/URL

This is a [URL="http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=2361"]link to a thread to a plastic truck repair thread.

Truck operation.


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## T-Man

I just wanted to record what happened to the dissected truck. I finally found it on the Canadian National Boxcar. The other repaired coupler is on the grey unnumbered hopper.
I have to admit that epoxy is great stuff.


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## T-Man

Just adding some plastic truck images.



The top truck use part number 600 9050-150 from Lionel



This is a 581 -10 for the second truck


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