# Lubricating Lionel 682 Locomotive



## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I now know how to run the trains on the track, but they don't run very smoothly. I heard some where it's called lubricating. I don't know how to lubricate this model. Please give me any suggestions on how to lubricate a Lionel 682 Locomotive.

picture of my train: http://imgur.com/eNKqVU6


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

My train just kind of hums


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

It hums because it doesn't know the words to the song....LOL. You will most likely have to take the body off the frame, and do some preventive maintenance. You will most likely get answers on what to do. I just don't have the time to go into it right now, as I will be leaving shortly. They are really not that hard to work on, and you will need to get some items to get it going in great shape. Trust me, you will get answers, and whatever you don't understand, the members here will gladly help. I just don't have the time at the moment.:laugh::laugh:


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Can anybody help? I don't know how to lubricate the train.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

First, does it run?
Or just hum?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

It does both. Sometimes it barely moves, and sometimes it does nothing but hum.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

First take some alcohol IPA and clean the wheels and rollers real good. ( the rollers are the things that pick up the electric on the center tube of the track)
Do you have any alcohol?, that is the kind they wipe you down in a hospital.

What track do you have? Regular Lionel tube track?
Wipe that real good too with the alcohol and a soft cloth. (rag)

If you have a dremel tool use a stainless wire wheel brush to clean them up.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You see the gears that move the wheels?

Put a few drops of oil on them, not too much just a few drops.
Motor oil will do, 5/20 if you have any, the kind you put in your cars engine.

While your looking at the gears make sure nothing is caught up in them, sometimes there might be some old Christmas tree tinsel or something else wound up in there.

I stress don't over oil, it will just make a mess. Just a few drops and when you run it the oil will get around on them.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Ed, look at his track in that pic. Those rails look greasy.
They have to be cleaned with alcohol!


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## Dave Sams (Nov 24, 2010)

slapsam101 said:


> It does both. Sometimes it barely moves, and sometimes it does nothing but hum.


Do you know how the e unit works?

You will hear a 60 cycle hum when in neutral.

You will hear a 60 cycle hum while running too.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I put alcohol on track and wheels, but where are the gears you are talking about?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Red arrows point them out, just a few drops.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

On my train you can't see the gears. Here is a picture: http://imgur.com/JhHLBLl


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

OK I was not thinking......You are going to have to take the shell off, you have a worm gear inside. Most likely it has the old Lionel lube on it and that stuff hardens like cement. It will affect the running.

I don't have one to show pictures, the closest I can show you is this 671, http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-52.htm

click on each diagram and it opens in a new window so you can see it.

I do have a 2020 which is close but never had it opened yet.
I guess you don't know how to take the shell off huh?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't know how to take the shell off, but I will look at the diagram.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I don't know how to take the shell off, but I will look at the diagram.


The diagram won't tell you how, turn your locomotive over I see the 2 screws in the back underneath, they must hold the back on. 

I will go look at the picture again.

It is not that hard but I would suggest taking pictures for reference.

Let me take another look, maybe someone that has one will chime in?

The # 671 is similar as is the 2020. Which I have downstairs....somewhere, but like I said I never had it apart yet.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm currently taking it apart. I will let you know how it goes.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I'm currently taking it apart. I will let you know how it goes.


Take pictures for reference, put the screws in an old pill bottle or something.

Don't force anything.

I don't know if it really necessary to take off the running rods? Once you take the front truck and rear truck off (trucks are the wheel sets) and the 2 screws in the back it might come right off?

If you get it off check out how the grease is on the worm wheel. If is a caked up hard substance try to get most of it out of there.
Then there is a better lube to use for the worm gear.
Though one member says the motor oil would be fine there too, I like a grease on them.

I just might have to take my 2020 apart now. To see what is under there.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I took it apart and there were no gears on the inside. Here is a picture of what it looks like: http://imgur.com/a/8M830


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Red arrow, this hard grease?
Orange arrow this should be the worm gear cover, did you look at the link picture I posted?
Looks pretty clean in there.

That cover should pop off to get at the worm wheel.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

See the yellow arrow, it almost looks like someone may have rewound the wire on? In my opinion it does not look "factory neat". I could be wrong?
I know it was stored away for a long time, are you the original owner?

Maybe this is just normal?
I have not fooled around with these motors yet.
Maybe someone that has will add to the thread?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

The orange is hard to turn/slow, and the red is easy to turn/fast.
I removed a lot of the grease. I don't know if the job is done cause orange is hard to turn.
I'm not the owner my Papa gave me them just last week.
Here are the pictures: http://imgur.com/a/Q5QCw


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> The orange is hard to turn/slow, and the red is easy to turn/fast.
> I removed a lot of the grease. I don't know if the job is done cause orange is hard to turn.
> I'm not the owner my Papa gave me them just last week.
> Here are the pictures: http://imgur.com/a/Q5QCw


*Do you have any contact cleaner spray?
*
The red arrow was just pointing to the grease I saw, I guess you mean the motor turns easy?
You took the motor out? There are bearings on that they should be oiled to. See the top your brushes are in there they should be checked too. but lets not get too far ahead right now.
I think that worm wheel will be hard to turn anyway, *was the grease real hard like hardened ear wax?*
Look at the motor that is in that link.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

*XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
*
Double post somehow? 
This post needs deleting, *but I doubt if someone ever will.*


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Yes the grease was really hard.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The red arrow is the e unit.
The orange arrow is the lever that changes direction, did you try moving this when you were testing?
The green arrow, underneath here you will see some fingers that rotate a drum, also under there is a plunger that moves up and down.

I would just spray cleaner in there at first, we have a good video about servicing the e unit but yours might just need a little cleaning. I would advise against taking one apart unless you really have to.

Your inside look pretty clean so for now as long as you have it apart You might as well spray it down.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> Yes the grease was really hard.


That was a big part of your problem, you will see a difference when you get it back together.

I see sandpaper, I wouldn't use that or steel wool on your locomotives. Use a kitchen brite pad.

Do you have a dremel tool?
What did you use the sandpaper on?

*Do you have any contact cleaner?*


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Spray the train with what?
The sandpaper was there on accident. I did not use it for anything.
Yes I have a dremel tool


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> Spray the train with what?
> The sandpaper was there on accident. I did not use it for anything.
> Yes I have a dremel tool



This is safe to use, http://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-QD-11-oz-Contact-Cleaner-02130-6/202262505

There are other brands.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

What does it do, and why should I do that?
How do I use it?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I just saw your arrows I thought you were talking about mine, the motor shaft will be hard to turn.
The other is the worm wheel, the grease would make that hard to turn.
I did not see your arrows in the second picture.

I would still spray the worm wheel clean and then add some better grease, there are a few to choose from.
Different people have different views on what is the best.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

What would be the best cleaner?
Lens cleaner?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> What does it do, and why should I do that?
> How do I use it?


Just spray it on it will clean it all up. You can pick out a lot with a toothpick and q tips.
The spray will break it down, for the e unit just spray it all up inside real good and just let it dry. 
I would advise not spraying it anywhere on the motor itself.

Have you ever used a brake cleaner spray?
It does about the same thing but is safer to use on electrical parts and plastics.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

No, but I will see if I have some.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't have any, and I don't won't to go to the store.
What else could I use?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You're going to need some grease anyway right?

I would not recommend a brake cleaner, what is lens cleaner?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

HAPPY NEW YEAR! 

Does that worm wheel come out?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm confused let's start over.
I want to clean all the grease in this picture correct?
http://imgur.com/z7MWkgc


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I'm confused let's start over.
> I want to clean all the grease in this picture correct?
> http://imgur.com/z7MWkgc


Yep.
Plus spray the e unit real good if you get the spray, you might as well since you have it apart.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Can we continue tomorrow, and happy new year?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> Can we continue tomorrow, and happy new year?


Yes, sure, I have been up since 3 this morning.
I wanted to see the ball drop.

Thanks for keeping me awake.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Spray the e-unit with what?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm back and still up, but not for long. What Ed wants you to do is get some contact cleaner, like what is used on electronic circuit boards, when soldering and such. I didn't check what link he sent you, but I will guess it is CRC brand, contact cleaner that comes in a spray can. Spray that all up inside the E-unit, and let it evaporate by itself. Down in the well where the worm gear is, pick out as much of the old grease that you can, and spray that too, with the contact cleaner. Once it is clean enough, put a grease, like lubri-plate, or lithium grease down in the bottom of the well. 

I can tell you how to test the motor, some time during tomorrow, and I will send you some part numbers to order some parts, and who to buy them from. These motors are not that hard to get running smoothly, but it takes some time, and replacing some parts. I am only saying that, because you may have to put new brushes in the motor, and might need new ones. I will guide you through the process. The Lionel 671, 681, 682, and 2020 are all the same loco, but different numbers on the cab, and the 681 and 682 both have magnetraction, where the other two don't have it. I will explain it better later.

Happy New Year
Jerry


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

The only type of solvent I have is gumout.
Will that work?
Is the orange arrow the worn gear?
http://imgur.com/swcS36K


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> The only type of solvent I have is gumout.
> Will that work?
> Is the orange arrow the worn gear?
> http://imgur.com/swcS36K


Good morning.
The orange you have marked in your picture ,That is the armature shaft that operates the worm *wheel*.
What I keep calling the worm gear should have been the worm *wheel*.

You want to clean both of them but I was talking about your *red arrow piece*...... the worm *wheel*.
*Does that worm wheel come out?*

*I would not use gumout.*But if you want to try just try it on the worm wheel area to get the hard grease out. I would keep it away from the e unit and motor.
I would use what I keep telling you to use.

Do you have any grease to put on? Not all grease is the same, you might have to go to the store anyway to buy some, while your there get some contact cleaner.:dunno:
Send the wife to get some? Son? Daughter? Neighbor? a friend? The Dog?

I will go back and edit my posts to put the wheel in instead of gear.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

What kind of grease should I use?
And where would I put it?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> What kind of grease should I use?
> And where would I put it?


Like Doc already said,
"Lubri-plate, or lithium grease down in the bottom of the well." 

It will get distributed around when you run it.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

A friend just told me to use oil, instead of grease.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> A friend just told me to use oil, instead of grease.


You can, but for a worm gear I prefer a *good *grease type lube.
But some do just use the oil and they say that the oil will eventually break down the hardened grease that you didn't get out. The oil will soften the old hard grease. They say.

If you want to try just the oil go ahead.
Just keep an ear out for grinding sounds after you have run the train for a while, it could be the worm being ground up because of lack of lube.

I feel better with a good greasy lube on the worm instead of oil.
Everything else I just use motor oil now.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I strongly recommend 5W-20 motor oil It never dries out. Most other greases and oils dry out and get hard or gummy. Motor oil is good for everything, IMHO. 

There is an oil hole in the top of the motor housing. You need to put some motor oil in here and make sure it gets into the motor. I have a motor on a 736 that had this hole plugged up with old grease or oil. If you put a drop or two of oil in this oil hole, it should go down into the hole. I have a 2353 that had the same problem. Both run better with the oil getting to the motor bearings.

You should oil all the driver axle bearings and the side rods. You should also oil all the bearings in the leading and trailing trucks. If it turns or slides, oil it. This includes the pickup rollers and the wheels and pickup rollers of the tender. Take the shell off of the tender and oil the whistle motor. There are two bearings in the whistle motor. Make sure you oil both of them.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sam, I am going to continue with the motor, and add photos, hopefully in the order that I want, to help you understand the parts. Servoguy (Bruce) has commented on using standard motor oil, for anything that needs "oiling". He is pretty much rignt, but you have to find a way to dispense it. Some areas you can just put a dab of oil where you need it with just a toothpick, other spots you may have to resort to buying something like a medical needle to describe what I mean, but something that looks like that. That is so you can get the oil down where you need it. 

Because you are getting into repairing and cleaning up your 682, you should get certain tools to do the job, and can use the same items on other trains that you decide to work on. Some items you should think about getting are cheap. An old toothbrush for scrubbing, Contact Cleaner Spray can (CRC brand), possible solvents to break up hardened grease such as Naptha, Acetone, Lacquer thinner, (caution with any of these is don't get it on any plastic bodies). Toothpicks or find an old pointed dental pick online like eBay, or at a flea market. Scotchbrite pads, in different coarseness' for cleaning armature faces, 800-1000 grit sandpaper (not emery paper, as that has metal particles in it), jar of vaseline as a light grease type lubricant. Isopropyl 91% alcohol (the kind from the drug store), if you can't get the 91%, at least get 70%. The alcohol is also good to get oily residue off of surfaces. Never Never use steel wool near the trains, and don't use any heavy grit sandpapers on the track. The track can be cleaned up by running a Scotchbrite pad on the tops of the rails, and wipe it down with the alcohol, and a rag or paper towel. ***These are just some of the things that you should have, and I know I am probably missing items, but this should give you and idea of some of the things you need to get.

I will start another post, and put photos in and hopefully get descriptions added in the right spots.

Jerry


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Thank you I will try that


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*681 motor breakdown & how to test it.*

Sam, and anyone else needing this info. I am going to post photos with notations added to them. Photo 1 is the back view showing the brush plate. At the top of the brushplate, where the rivet is, just above that is where the field wire (comes from bottom contact of E-unit), either side of that are the brush slots, with the wires from the upper contacts of E-unit are soldered, and the blue line is the armature shaft, which goes through to other end to geared end of shaft. The replacement part for the brushes are listed as #622-121, used on a 681-100 style motor.









The next photo is with the brush plate removed, showing the armature 3 section surface, which can been seen as dirty. There are slots separating these segments, and below the motor are the brushes and brush plate off. Clean off the ends of the brushes with a paper towel or rag and some alcohol. Buff up the 3 segments of the armature surface with a clean Scotchbrite pad, or 800-1000 grit sandpaper, so it is shiny again. If any debris is in the slots, pick it out with a toothpick.









This next photo is after the armature surface has been cleaned and polished. I have 1000 grit, and 1200 grit sandpaper, that I use. Once you get it like this, or very near this shiny, you can put the brushes back into the brush plate. I lay the brush plate down with the brushes standing up, and the lower the motor body down on top, so the brushes don't fall out, while putting the two back together.









The next photo is how you can hook up a transformer to the proper points, and what contacts to strap together, to test the motor in a running condition. If the E unit is still connected, take the lever and place it off of the contact point that it would normally be in, if the loco was assembled. You want to basically take the E-unit out of the wiring, so to speak.









The next photo is for running the motor in reverse, and where the leads have to be placed. These connections will get the motor running, with the motor out of the frame, so that all you are testing is the functional speed of the motor.









The last photo should have been added up top, but missed it, but this the opposite end of the motor and the end of the armature shaft that has the gear that rides on the Worm Wheel. Clean out any old hardened grease, and re-lube it before reassembly. If the old grease is very hardened, use an old toothbrush, and a heavy solvent, that can break up the grease, and scrub it real good. You can put a dab of grease or Lubri-plate on the surface to keep the ball bearing inside well lubricated.









AS seen in this last photo, there are ball bearings just behind the "C Clip", that holds the armature shaft in place, when the motor is completely together. This has to get a good cleaning, and re-lubing. As a note, there are bearings on the other end of the motor, under the armature, which are recessed into a bearing race, that are identical to the ones shown it the last photo.

As Servoguy (Bruce) has mentioned in the other post, there is a small hole on top of the motor that you want to put oil in. Some diagrams shown from Lionel show it as "L", for lubricant, and it should be marked in their diagrams as "O" for oil. This puts oil down inside the motor, and coats the length of the armature shaft, inside the motor.

Hopefully I got everything covered, but if I missed anything or there is a question about anything, just ask. This motor and the 671/2020 motor are virtually the same, with the exception being the brush plate that was used. The 671/2020 brush plate has brass tubes sticking out of the brush plate, and use a different brush with a spring, (Part # 2020M-33 carbon brush & 2020M-34 brush spring). The 736 loco used the same motor as described above, number 681-100 complete motor assembly, as does the 746 loco. These motors were very versatile and used in different configuration, with the basic motor being the same, and only the brush plates were changed, for an individual motor application. YES, the brush plates can be swapped, and still work, contrary to what may believe.

Jerry


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The motor in the above post was a motor that I bought on eBay, for a 2020 turbine that I was rebuilding. When I received the motor, I used the connections described in the above post, to make sure the motor ran. I soon found out, the Field wires were broken in more than one spot. I did get another good motor for the replacement later. I decided to experiment with this motor and decided to see if there was a way to repair or fix it. I initially started by unwinding the field wire off the coil, until I got to the last break in the wire. I then resoldered the wire to the center post, and tested the motor. To my surprise, the motor did run, but it didn't run as fast as a normal good motor.

At that point, I made a command decision, with Nothing to Lose. I slowly took all of the windings off the motor, until I was down to the bare core. I bought a spool of 30 Ga. enameled wire of 90'. I started to try and rewind the coil, but saw that it was going to be impossible to do this with everything still in place. Once again, command decision time, I ground off the riveted end on the front face of the motor, that were factory peened over. The Peened over end is a shaft that is the back end of the motor, where there are the threaded studs that the brush plate slides onto, and the screws are inserted. This gave me access to just the core for the coil windings to be rewound. I slowly rewound the motor, until I got the coil wires close to the outer edge of the side plates, and added a few more turns. I put everything back together, but had a problem with how to keep the long studs inside the motor, so that they wouldn't slide out after re-assembly. I used a small drill bit, and drilled a hole and placed a tiny self tapping screw with the solder lug for the grounded side of the coil wire. Put a small dab of JB Weld over the solder lug, to make sure the stud wouldn't pull back out.

I hooked up the strapping and a transformer, and did the forward and reverse test. This motor probably works better, and faster than any of the others in the 681 & 2020's that I have. It is also super quiet.

Like T-Man says, DON'T THROW IT OUT!!! I really had nothing to lose, by trying what I did.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Very good detailed pictorial


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

This is a video of the train after it has been lubricated.
The first train was the one I was working on.
The second is an old Marx working to show that the track is fine.
http://sendvid.com/4x4uk3qg


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## rrbill (Mar 11, 2012)

Teledoc, great information and well illustrated. Thanks for sharing it.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

This is a video of the train after it has been lubricated.
The first train was the one I was working on.
The second is an old Marx working to show that the track is fine.
http://sendvid.com/4x4uk3qg


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The train you lubed is not working?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Any ideas?
Should I take it into a shop?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Put it on the track and try to cycle it, then leave the power on and work the e unit lever back and forth, see what happens.

Where are the other 6 wheels that go under the cab?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

What do you mean cycle?
The six wheels are missing are they needed?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> What do you mean cycle?
> The six wheels are missing are they needed?


Not to run it, but they should be on it.

The e unit lever, in the middle on top of the locomotive. See the lever?

Give the track power......then move that lever back and forth to see if anything happens.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sam, I have to ask a question about the 682 and your lubrication. I should have clarified something from Servoguy's post with oiling. I meant to say something about what he posted, but forgot all about it, when I was posting the motor photos and descriptions.

He stated to oil anything that rolled or slid, which was a very ambiguous statement. I hope you didn't put oil directly on the pick up rollers. If you did, you have to clean it off, immediately. What he should have said was put a small dab or drop of oil on the two outside pins of the rollers, where they are inserted into the roller bracket. My mistake for not mentioning the broadness of his statements, and he knows better. A specific description should have said that, as with the axles, which you should have able to see when the frame and shell were separated. If you cold see where the axles went through the frame, put oil right up against the axle where it meets the frame bearings.

I have to go and look at the video again to check something. Did you make sure that the lever from the E-unit came back up through the slot, and that it is making contact to power the loco. I won't know until I re-check your video. IF you didn't get the lever back up through the slot, that could be the reason it won't run. It could be in the Neutral state, and won't run. Check it and make sure the lever is up into the slot, and I am going to look at the video again.

The lever is in the correct position, so it has to be something else. Did you go through my post, on how to test the motor?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think servoguy says a little oil on the rollers won't hurt anything?
He even oils the commutator.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I didn't oil the rollers. 
I will try cycling and let you know if anything happens.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If cycling the e unit lever doesn't do anything, I suggest you take the body off again, and just try running the frame with motor, to see if that gets it running. Check and see if you possibly broke a wire associated with the e unit or motor. Don't feel STUPID either, as we all make Stupid mistakes from time to time, and none of us are Perfect. That is part of the learning process, is learning from your mistakes, so you don't do it again, the next time.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

This is what I did.
http://sendvid.com/gt2b3rcv


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Do what I suggested, and take the body off the frame. From the video the loco is drawing power, but something is dragging down the voltage, as the light appeared dim. It could be a pinched wire, or where the motor gear meshes with the worm wheel, it is binding, and in just a position that it is jammed. I have had it happen, and had to readjust how the motor got screwed into the frame, and the wheels would turn smoothly. You can hold the loco in one hand upside down, and with the other hand, try to roll the drive wheels and see if it wants to move at all. It may take some pressure to do it, and try either the front set of wheels or the back set of wheels, which are the actual drivers. The two center sets of wheels are more aesthetic for appearance and only turn from the side linkage. One way or another, we gotta get you going with this. We are in for the "Long Haul"..LOL


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

The train does the same thing, but I had a better view of what was happening.
The worm gear/motor doesn't move at all.
I can move the motor on my own and the wheels will turn.
The problem is the motor nothing else I think.
Should i put oil in this hole in the motor, because it has a lot of gunk.
http://imgur.com/bhUYPwe


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## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

*682*

E-Unit might be stuck or wire(s) might be bad. Take the shell off and use a small screwdriver to work the E-Unit plunger up and down to see if it cycles. I had one that sounded like that and I found out someone before I had it had put powdered graphite on the plunger part of the E-Unit. I cleaned it off and it worked fine. Worth a try.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Yes, put oil down into that hole, as that will lubricate the inner shaft of the armature. And not to sound redundant, but pull the motor out of the frame again, and go back to the post I put in, showing how to connect a strap across the contacts on the brushplate, and connect the transformer as I also show. Looking at the photo where you are pointing to the hole, the E unit lever should be in that position, when trying to test the motor as I am describing. You can just sit the motor on the table, and hook up the wires per the photo, and just touch the other contacts like in the photo, and the motor should run all by itself. Depending on which way you strap the contacts as to whether it will run forward or reverse, but that is explained in that post. I just want to make sure that the motor is running right, and at it's full potential. The strapping is merely shorting out the two contacts on the brush plate, which in a sense is what the E unit does, when it runs through the cycles.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm currently cleaning the motor with your instructions.


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## WildcatRR (Jul 28, 2013)

*682*

That's the spirit. This is how you learn and before you know it you will know your engine inside out. We are behind you on this project so keep us posted.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, I will check back later to see how you are coming along. I also thought about some other tools you might get along the line. Try and get some test leads with alligator clips on each end. Maybe a 1/2 dozen (6), to use for temporary hookups, and strapping contacts, like what I described in the motor post. Don't get impatient, and take your time. It's a whole new learning experience, and I myself have learned immensely from this forum, and am no longer to afraid to tackle fixing my own stuff. Certain things can't be done, and you will have to rely on a qualified repair facility, but most things you will be able to do yourself. You just have to learn along the way. Two years ago, I never would have even thought of tearing an engine apart, and trying to fix it myself. Now, I don't even give it a second thought.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

One final thing after you are done cleaning the motor. Leave the body off, and try to run the loco without the body first, to make sure it is running. Also, if it does run after the cleaning, use the direction control on the ZW. Just push the lever marked direction down, on whichever control you are using, A side or B side. This way you will know that the E unit is cycling correctly, and will go from forward, neutral, reverse, neutral, forward, etc. That is the way to know the E unit is working, as it should.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Nevermind


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I got it working!!
I opened the tender up and tried it on the track.
The train moves, but the whistle is so bad it barely makes a sound.
Any ideas on the whistle?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Whistle*

Okay, before we start in on the tender, which is probably going to be lubricating and brushes, ad dirty armature again. What did you wind up with, with the 682? Does it run better now, and did you try if first without the body on, to make sure. Does the E unit cycle and it runs forward, then reverse?

We will tackle the whistle next. And you will need to take a few photos of the whistle motor, and the bottom of the whistle frame also.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I took the frame off the engine and tested the motor separately like in your instructions. 
Also the ZW transformer sounds diffrent sometimes. It is a two-prong going into a three-prong. When it is noisy it gives power, when it is quiet it gives no power.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Whistle pictures: http://imgur.com/a/Wsu7X


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That sounds like you might have a problem with the transformer. The two prong plug is exactly what has to on any older Postwar transformer, and there was NO need to replace an old cord with a three prong plug. All the modern outlets in houses have to 3 prong by Electrical code, and using anything with just a two prong plug is perfectly fine. The problem with using the Old Postwar transformer and the two prong plug is when you get to a point where you need to add an extra transformer to your layout, and you want to "Phase" the two transformers to work together. (It's a long involved description to explain). Basically when you are Phasing two different transformers, sometimes you have to flip one plug around in the socket, so that the two transformers are connected the same way. It's hard to explain in simple term, and you will probably never get to that point anyway.

Does the hum occur on just one side of the transformer, such as the "A" side, and not the other side. Try the opposite side of the transformer, and see if it does the same thing. Does it occur in one position of the throttle, but ok in other positions. If that is the case, chances are that the rollers that run across the windings of the transformer are worn, or even may have a chip out of one spot on the roller. That's just an assumption on my part. Try flipping power to another control lever and see if the problem follows.

We're gonna teach you yet!!!! ROFLMAO


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I got it working, I plugged it into a different outlet and it work just fine
Now the whistle.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I don't know if you ever heard of an old TV show called Kung Fu, but there was a main character who was sent to learn Kung Fu from Masters. One of the masters was named "Master Po", who was a Kung Fu Master, and also blind. His student had to learn things from him. The student was named Kwai Chang Kane. So with that little background, I as Master Po will say "Patience Little Grasshopper". We will get to the whistle...Patience!!


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

The transformer is fine now.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*2046 Whistle*

Looking at your earlier posts and video you have a 2046 eight wheel tender. Without a photo to see the bottom, I am going to assume that looking at the bottom of the tender, there is a round hole, dead center of the frame, and you can see what looks like fan blades. If that is what it looks like you have WS-125 or even a WS-175 whistle. There should be two nuts in opposite corners diagonally that the whistle motor mounts to, that come down from the actual whistle. 

If you have the shell off the tender, there should be a brown bakelite square plate on top of where the armature is located. It is similar to looking at the armature of the 682 motor, which has two brushes, and dead center is where the shaft of the armature pokes through that plate. That plate is the whistle brush plate, and there are two brushes, and if memory serves me correctly a spring behind the brush.

I am also going to presume that you tried the whistle, and it does work with the transformer whistle control, but it sounds terrible, and gravily sounding. With that assumption, that proves that the transformer whistle control is Ok.

Let's get caught up so far, and I will continue in next post.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

You are right, the transformer whistle control works


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*2046-50 Whistle*

Okay Grasshopper, I want you to put a few drops of oil, where the center pin/shaft comes up through the center of the brush plate. I don't know for sure if there is a "wick", actually a fibrous batting under the center raised piece, that the oil needs to soak into. Just don't put any more than 1 to 2 drops of oil there, otherwise, if there wasn't or isn't any wick under there, it will get down on top of the armature copper plates, and that will mess things up. Do that first and try the whistle on the track again, to see if it improved the sound at all. If it didn't help, or the whistle doesn't want to work at all, then the brush plate has to come off.

Not right now, but later I will send you a link to a very good website, who is also a parts distributor, which will be a link on Whistles. I will explain things about the site, and you will need to bookmark that site for future reference.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't see the brush plate
Where is it?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I had to search for a photo to describe the brush plate and hopefully it doesn't come out too large. The RED is pointing to the brush plate (square brown plate); The BLUE points to the end of the armature shaft, which is where you want to put a drop or maybe two, but no more there. The GREEN is pointing to where the brushes are, up inside the two tubes protruding up from the brush plate. That is where most of your maintenance will take place.

Your whistle may not look exactly like the one I posted, but it is very similar. The long narrow piece where the armature shaft stick up into some times has a "Wick batting", which will absorb any oil you put on that end of the armature. Some times there isn't any Wick, so be very careful putting oil there. If there isn't any batting Wick material in there, and you put too much oil there, it will seep down onto the copper faces of the armature, and then you have a mess to clean up. So go sparingly with oil there. You will most likely have to take that brush plate off, and do the same cleaning to the armature that you did on the motor of the 682.









Try the oil on the armature shaft first, and try the whistle, and see if it improves the sound, and gets rid of the grinding type sound. It may take a little while for it to work.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

RJJB, I notice you are viewing this post, and have belonged to the forum for a while. Any questions or comments. We don't bite heads off on this forum. And welcome to MTF


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I will try tomorrow


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Slapsam, Here is one of the links I mentioned, that you should bookmark. The website is Olsen's Toy Train Parts, in Ohio, who sells repair parts. The link is to his Library, which is just like having a Repair Manual, and you can look up specific topics, like Postwar Locos, Prewar Locos, **Whistles**, and all kinds of stuff. It's is a blessing to have this site available. The link is directly to Level 1 of the Library, and when you get the time, check certain things out. You will see diagrams for locos, rolling stock,and they show Part numbers, if you need to order anything. That way you know what part you need.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd1.htm

I will give you a list of different Parts Dealers that you can search, if and when you need parts. IT is actually available right here on the MTF, up in "Looking for Info" section. I will point you to certain posts that are here, that are good reading, to help you learn more. The bulk of the most frequent "0" gauge users here, are more than glad to answer questions, or people wanting information. We all get along here.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

We can continue this tomorrow, as I went to bed around 2:45 am this morning, got up at 6:30, and it's catching up with me. Tune in tomorrow for another chapter on the 682 and 2046 in progress.....nighty night guys.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

teledoc, you are missing a very important thing. The whistle motor has two bearings. One you can see easily, and one is under the armature. Both need oil. The lower bearings needs a few drops of oil using a pin oiler, toothpick or bent paper clip. 

I am not a proponent of taking everything apart to clean it up and/or install new brushes. And I often oil the commutator and brushes as it makes the motor run better. Motor oil does not cause a problem, but every other kind of oil will probably foul the commutator. When I oil a commutator, I make sure the commutator slots are clean. Otherwise the oil may release the particles in the slots and they will foul the brushes.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

Ugh, I am not looking forward to performing maintenance on mine...


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Doc the way he tore into the locomotive, I think he evolved from a grasshopper to a butterfly already. Though I don't think he did all that he could have done while he had it apart.
I also think he would benefit from a trip to the store to buy some cleaner.

I found a box of an unfinished 1615 locomotive and a 2046 tender I had all apart yesterday before you wrote about the 2046. 
The 1615 runs good but sometimes it needs a little shove to get it going? Everything looks good inside, I sprayed cleaner into the e unit and it looks to operate OK? It all looks good, I oiled and cleaned everything.
What could be the cause of every once and a while it needs a little shove in between changing directions? Wheels, rollers* everything* looks good and is clean.

The 2046 is in this thread, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=11948 it is the ones that had the miniature wasps living in it.
Look at the date of my last entry in the thread, 05-06-2012. It has been waiting for a while.

Like servoguy said, oil the armature ends, if you flip it over you can get to the bottom one inside the water scoop with a needle bottle. Mine quieted down nice after a couple of drops of oil.

Funny, it blows nice until you put the shell back on then you hear the motor noise.
I am going to take it apart again.

But when it blows (without the shell on) the motor chatters just a little in the beginning then you get a nice whistle sound. 
Put the shell back on and the motor stays noisy, it still whistles nice but the motor is noisy.

In that thread it had a 2055, I wonder where that is?:dunno:
I wonder if I ever finished that or is there another box with it waiting for me.
I do have a few that were waiting for parts.

The 616 Flying Yankee is still waiting too, I am sure there are others waiting.

Maybe the pictures in the link of the 2046 will help slapsam101 a little?
slapsam101.....that tender should have a number stamped on the bottom? Do you see any?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Slapsam101, I want you to take a look at this link, from Big Ed, with his 2046W whistle, and you can look at his photos, to see what you are looking for.

The 2046W is in this thread, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=11948

I have a few things to do today, and will get back into this discussion later and "Your learning lessons".


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> Slapsam101, I want you to take a look at this link, from Big Ed, with his 2046W whistle, and you can look at his photos, to see what you are looking for.
> 
> The 2046W is in this thread, http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=11948
> 
> I have a few things to do today, and will get back into this discussion later and "Your learning lessons".


Down in the dungeon looking around Doc. 
The 2046w that had the little hornets is still noisy.

Found me another 2046w, it whistles well along with a Prewar #2666w that whistles good too.
Both of them I got off of stauff's (Paul's) for sale thread $ around $20 bucks each. I think?
I think they were his, unless I have others.
I have a big box of all kinds of tenders, though most don't have a whistle.

Back to the treasure hunt. I forgot all I have down there.
I really should inventory. 

I found the 2055, still sitting in the box looking up at me, just like I left it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*1615 Switcher & 2046W whistle*

Ed, On your comment about the switcher, I think you will find that you may have to take the E-unit out of it, and take scotchbrite to the plunger, even though it may look good. Some instances it is just a finicky E unit, and you have to mess with it. Also, it can sometimes be exactly where the linkage stops, when you reverse directions. I can't tell you the number of times I have had to tinker with the linkage, to get it just right. With the linkage, sometimes it will snag at the least opportune time, and gets a stubborn streak and won't change directions. I presently have one 1625 (Battlefront set #1591), and six 1615's, of which two are in the repair/fix list. I have a shell that I need to replace the marker lights on, with JB Weld of course. I did two of those already, and sold the one shell about 2 years ago, after I fixed it.

The 2046W is another story, or any of those generation of whistles. Per Bruce (Servoguy) recommendation with oiling...The worst trouble spot is the bushing under the armature, where you can't get to it good enuf. It usually takes a couple of tries with constant oiling in that spot, to quiet the damn things down. You have to oil it, test it or run it for awhile, and re-oil it some more, for a few times. As long as the brushes are good, and the armature facing is clean, it all comes down to lubrication. 


I will be in and out most of the day, Un Decorating, and storing it away. I have to come up with some photos, to help describe certain things for Sam too.

Later


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I put oil on the armature, and let it soak in.
Every time you here that sound it is trying to whistle.
http://sendvid.com/62t1et1e


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The piece you see that goes up and down in the relay (reference the short arrow).
The piece is supposed to have a tab that contacts the other piece underneath (reference the large arrow)

Do you have this? I don't see it? If your missing the tab there, it won't work.

If you do just power up the transformer and take a small screw driver put it under the tab and work it by hand up and down to see if it works.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Ed, I looked at video twice, & I think the tab is missing like you said. Back to the drawing board!!!


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I did the screw driver thing and I saw sparks, but heard not whistle.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> Ed, I looked at video twice, & I think the tab is missing like you said. Back to the drawing board!!!


I looked again after I enlarged it and there might be one?
I don't know but if it is missing that is what will happen.

Wheres Sam?:dunno:


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Bruce, If you are monitoring this, can you explain to him where he needs to get down below the armature and oil there. I'm on an iPad right now, and can't do things like on the computer.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I did the screw driver thing and I saw sparks, but heard not whistle.



There is Sam......*.do you have the tab under there?*

Your video is shot up to high for me to see.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

There are two bearings for the whistle motor. One is on top and is obvious. The other is below the armature and cannot be seen easily. Using a toothpick or bent paper clip, pick up a drop of oil on the end of the bent paper clip (or toothpick). Then carefully guide the end of the bent paper clip under the armature until the oil drop is at the armature bearing. When you touch the armature bearing with the oil drop, the oil drop will get onto the armature shaft and flow down to the bearing. Do this about 3 times. Then operate the whistle to see if it sounds better. If it doesn't sound better, it may be that the oil didn't get to the bearing. If so, try again. A small flashlight might allow you to see this bearing.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Here are some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/SAR3M


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks Bruce for explaining it better. Slapsam, I want you to try something, to make sure the whistle does in fact work. It will require a set of wires connected to the opposite control of "U" and A or whatever is un-used. Here is a photo of Ed's tender, with where you need to touch the wires to. There is a tab close to the body of the relay (inner tab) marked GREEN, which one wire gets touched, the other wire from the transformer goes to the that contact (RED), and turn up the voltage slightly, and see if it works. That will tell you that the whistle is working immediately. The video wasn't clear enough, and both Ed and I seem to think that the bottom tab of the relay is broken or missing, but not sure. By doing the test I just typed, it will pin point where to go.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

This bottom tab might have to be bent up a little.
Turn on the power with the tender on the track.
Take a screw driver and push up on that bottom tab to make contact with the other tab.
See what happens.

That tab looks like it needs some adjusting. 
The relay pulls up the other tab to make the motor run. If it is out of adjustment it won't run.

Also clean the tabs good, sometimes there is a little corrosion there.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Per what Ed just said, the contacts may be dirty. Take a piece of paper and slide it between the opening of the two tabs, and sort of close the gap, and pull the paper through it. Do it once or twice, which should clean up corroded contacts. Your video proved that the relay does work, but may have bad contacts. Also, I would try what I suggested with isolating the whistle from the other wiring, and touch the two points indicated with leads from the transformer. That will get the whistle to spin, and hopefully work.

Guess what guys....We have someone else with a NO GO 682, just posted today!!!!!


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't understand the instructions teledoc.
What wires from transformer go where?
Now my transformer won't work again


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

From your videos you have wires connected to the left side handle. Take another set of wires and hook them to the right hand control. The transformer is AC, so the wires don't make any difference. Touch one wire to the spot marked with the Green, and touch the other wire where it's marked in Red. This bypasses everything but the whistle, and it will make the whistle motor spin. Just increase the controller a little bit, and touch the Red & Green contacts. It's a quick & dirty test of nothing but the actual whistle, and everything else is out of the whole whistle


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't know if I did it right, but it won't work.
I tried spinning the motor with my hand, and I can't push it on my own. It feels stuck.
I think something might be stuck there like hard grease.
What should I do?


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

There is no grease in there to harden. Something is jamming it then. You may have to take the nuts off and lift the whole unit up off the frame. On the bottom you will see the whistle impeller. Perhaps something is caught in the fins. I doubt it is something on top under the brushplate, but you never know. MY bet is on the impeller end.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

There is nothing there Matt


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Did you try to spin it from the impeller?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

yeah I did try, and I couldn't spin it


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

If nothing is stuck down low, well the next step is to look on top. Pull the brushplate. Maybe something is jammed on the side of the armature. So when you try to spin it, does it move either way even a bit?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

To make the brush plate come off I have to solder the wires off.
Should I do that?


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

start by loosening the brush plate and see if it will spin


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Ok, I'm testing now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> To make the brush plate come off I have to solder the wires off.
> Should I do that?


No leave the wires alone. If you loosen the 2 nuts just lift it away like in my picture.

( the loose wires you see on mine were loose to begin with)

Just take the nuts off and lift it out of your way. Just be careful of the wires.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I can't take it off with the wires, and I'm pulling really hard. If I pull any harder the wires will brake.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Unsolder the wires and remove the brush plate. Look for something jamming the armature. The armature should turn with the brush plate removed.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

There is a chance the brush plate may break too If you pry , do it close to a corner.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Try a little penetrating oil on each corner?

His looks in better shape then mine did. My plate popped right off easy.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Should I solder the wires of are not?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> Should I solder the wires of are not?


Will you be able to solder them back on?
Can you solder?

If you un-solder them, just mark where they go.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I can solder. I will solder tonight, and let you know by tomorrow at 7:30.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I can solder. I will solder tonight, and let you know by tomorrow at 7:30.


Just make sure that you mark where they go.

Do you have any penetrating oil?
Spray some on each corner hole, see my picture, let them soak.
Spray some in the center hole too, see my picture. I wonder what is holding it in.

Stupid question but I got to ask, you did take the 2 nuts off right?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I see that we are at the stage of the brush plate won't come off easy, and the armature/impeller are frozen, and won't spin. Had company pop over, and couldn't be here for all the fun.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I took as much off as I could to see what was inside.
It is still really hard to turn, but I feel like it needs to be loosened up.
Here are some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/XevcP


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Wow, you did break it down. Good job. 

It should be spinning. I now wonder if the impeller was driven on the shaft too far by someone years ago. Then they found it wasn't working and it never went any further.

Maybe see if you can SUPER CAREFULLY wiggle/pry the impeller down. If it doesn't move with mild force, stop and re evaluate. Those old impellers break easily. Replacements are available, but let's try to avoid it.

Did you lube that bottom bearing up behind the impeller?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I did lube the bearing.
I wiggled the impeller down, it didn't help.
Here is a picture: http://imgur.com/tumUPuH


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I took as much off as I could to see what was inside.
> It is still really hard to turn, but I feel like it needs to be loosened up.
> Here are some pictures: http://imgur.com/a/XevcP


In your first picture here (above link) of the impeller it does not look normal?
Looks like some kind of goo around the middle?
I can't see it good enough in your picture even if I explode the picture some.

Does the armature turn any?
(That is the piece with the 3 slots on it.)

Your first 2 pictures, can you take better shots but closer and maybe add some background light on them so we can see them better?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I got to run, I will be back later.

To me it almost looks like someone EPOXIED on the impeller!?

Need better pictures, got to go now.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I can barely turn the armature.
Here is a better picture: http://imgur.com/a/a4ktB


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I guess it was not epoxied on?

Maybe take a punch and tap down on the shaft on the impeller end?
You have to be careful though.
And you have to secure the whole piece just right.
(Disclaimer, this was not my ideal but from someone else)
You never did answer me* do...you...have...a...penetrating spray?*
Did you soak it overnight if you have some?



I got to run now.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sam, I can't stay here long either, but it appears as if someone epoxied the impeller onto the shaft at some point. It is very possible that the epoxy may have seeped down into the bearing, which is causing it to not want to turn. I can suggest something, which may sound drastic, but may be worth a try. Do you have a pair of Vise Grips pliers? If you do, put the vise grip perpendicular to the armature, (so it looks like a "T", straight up and down", and get close to the armature plates. Hold the die cast body of the whistle in one hand, and try to twist the shaft back and forth, to see if you can break the shaft loose. Basically at this point you have nothing to lose, and may get things broken loose. I have to run, but will check back in later.

Jerry


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't think I have penetrating spray


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Teledoc I tried does not loosen up


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Got a chance to pop back in for a few minutes. Without having your whistle in my own hands, I don't know if whoever had the whistle apart before, used "Super Glue" to attach the impeller. If it was Super Glue or CA glue is another name for it, the only thing that can break it loose is Acetone. If you looked at a bottle of the brand "Super Glue" and read the labeling, it mentions Acetone as being able to dissolve the glue. If you accidentally glued your fingers together, you would use Acetone to dissolve the glue. OF course, I don't know what effect it would have on the impeller, since it is plastic. If I knew for sure that it wouldn't harm the plastic, you would have to take a small container with acetone in it, and dunk the impeller end of the assembly into it, up to the point where the bearing is, and let it soak, until it has a chance to work on the glue. 

You may be at the stage, that the whistle, as it stand in this condition, is non fixable, and you would have to find a suitable replacement. For exact identification, what you have is a Lionel WS-175 whistle assembly. Lionel made various whistles during all the years of production, and a WS-125 will look very similar. They are hard to tell apart.

I've got to run for now, but I will jump back in later. At least you are willing to learn and try what we have suggested, and don't get discouraged by mistakes. We all make them, but also learn not to do the same thing twice.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I took the impeller off easily


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you got the impeller off of the shaft, does it look like epoxy or super glue was used, and may have seeped into the bearing race. Just a thought!


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

If the shaft is not clean, use a small, flat, fine file to remove the stuff on the shaft. Then oil the bearing and work the armature back and forth and see if you can remove the armature. If you remove the armature, there must be a lot of crud on the shaft. Use the file to clean it off. Be careful not to nick the windings. When the shaft is clean, put it back into the bearing and see if it turns freely.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Another thought would be to use a soldering gun, and try to heat the shaft. Hold the armature side of the shaft with vise grip pliers, heat the opposite end of the shaft close to the bearing, and then try to twist the armature with your hand, to see if it will break loose.

Do you have a soldering gun, or a soldering iron (small hobby type)?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

slapsam101 said:


> I took the impeller off easily


I thought the impeller would not come off?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Teledoc I think glue got. To the barings because I can`t get to thr bearings


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

First question, is the impeller off of the shaft, so that all you are playing with is the armature and the shaft is exposed from the bottom side of the armature. and you can actually see the bearing inside the metal plate?

Answer that first, and then I will ask another question, with something to try. I will wait for your response.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I cant see the bearing, and the fan thing is completly off.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, I am visualizing that you have the armature with the three copper segment, which then has the grey metallic plate under that, and the rest of the shaft from the armature sticking out, without the impeller attached anymore. Is that what you are down to??

The fan thingy is the impeller, the point where the shaft comes through the grey colored square metal piece is is what we are calling the bearing. Typically the grey part is made of die cast metal, and right in the very center, is a brass or bronze colored bearing, that was pressed into the die cast piece.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

This is what I have so far: http://imgur.com/a/cquGC


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, After looking at your photos, go down to the fourth photo, that shows the bottom of the housing. The shaft is sticking out of what I would call a collar, that the center bearing is pressed into. Do you have any Acetone, or a substitute of "nail polish Remover", which should contain acetone. If for some reason the last person to have the whistle apart, and used "Super Glue, in that area, it may be what has the shaft frozen in the bearing. If you have Acetone or Nail polish remover, turn the assembly over, so that the shaft is sticking straight up and apply acetone tight where the shaft comes up. Acetone or polish remover will evaporate, but you can place a piece of tissue, or a cotton ball, and soak it with acetone.

If it's Super Glue that is causing your grief, the acetone will soften and dissolve the glue.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm not going to try that, because I can move it around with pliers a little bit, but there is no glue


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

You should let it sit for some time, so the acetone/polish remover has time to work. Then you can try turning the armature if it breaks loose.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I'm not going to try the acetone, it might damage some things


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay guys, give him his options!!!!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I would use heat.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Thank you guys so much for helping me. I'm sorry, but this project has to be stopped for 1 1/2 weeks. I have to much going on currently. I have kinda lost hope in this project, but thank you again for helping me.


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## MattR (Oct 30, 2015)

Just get another anyway at this point. Throw this one in the parts box. They can be had very affordably. It was a good try though. Ask here on the forum or look on ebay for another.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

You are at least willing to learn, and understand some of the terminology associated with toy trains. Not many younger people would try what you accomplished in the last week. I agree with what T-Man suggested with heat. I suggested it earlier with using a soldering gun or soldering iron on the shaft as close to the bearing as possible, and then try to turn the armature. You may not agree that it is glued, but there is a chance it is, and ONLY thing to dissolve it is Acetone. 

We as a group, have no idea what tools you have to work with, from some of the suggested cures we gave you. If you want to try acetone, get a cotton ball, place it over the shaft, on the side where the impeller was attached, and just wet the cotton ball. That way it would stay right there, and possibly soak down past the shaft. If you concentrate it just there, it won't damage any thing. If you aren't willing to try the last few remedies, the whistle itself, won't get repaired, and you will wind up having to buy another whistle motor, and put it in your frame and shell. 

If you want to get back into later, the group here will still be around.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I might take it into a shop to see if the train guy can fix it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you have a Lionel train repair facility near you, they would have the tools to try and salvage it. They may just tell you that it's a lost cause, and offer to sell you a replacement. It's your choice at this point. As it sits now, you have absolutely nothing to lose if you try heat, or acetone, and using vise grips instead of ordinary pliers. Ordinary pliers you can't get a solid firm grip on the shaft, and try to twist the base loose. 

You got the wiring to the track fixed, the 682 is running, but the whistle was the breaking point. I applaud you for sticking with, this far. Help is always here if you need it.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Thank you


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I don't need any thanks, you had problems with a loco, and found MTF, and decided to see if anyone could help. A group gave you advice, possible solutions, and you tried your best. That is one of the reasons that I personally find "Model Train Forum" as the best one out there on the internet. I visit the 3 major ones all the time, but here is where I am 99% of the time. Great group here, especially on "0" gauge and Tinplate. You'll be back. We will still be here.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Straight Acetone is kind of strong. Might melt plastics. 
Instead try some nail polish remover, the active ingredient is Acetone but made for fingers so it is not like using straight Acetone.

Try the cotton ball soak like Doc mentioned.
Just let it soak. Keep the cotton wet.

But you got the impeller off, I don't see what you want to soak?
The epoxied part I was talking about (and I don't know if it was epoxy or some kind of glue) was on the impeller end of the shaft and you got the impeller off easily you said.

What are you telling him to soak Doc? 

It is the armature stuck now? Stuck in the motor field?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Ed, Yes I think someone had used Super Glue, and it seeped down into the bearing race alongside the shaft with the armature. I suggested acetone because it is stronger, and if he just puts a cotton ball in the area where the impeller was, in just that area, and keeps it wet enough to work, he may be able to get it apart. Yes, nail polish would be the next best thing, and a little safer, and easier to get. If I had that in my hands, instead of him, I wouldn't think twice about taking a pair of vice grips, and come down vertically onto the armature side, and hold the die cast center piece in my other hand, and try to twist it off. If he could use vise grips, it would give a tight grip, and if low enough on the shaft, but not touching the armature, it wouldn't hurt anything. The very end of the shaft above the armature only rides in the hole of the brushplate. The opposite end of the shaft is a different story, because of the impeller, and how it would have to be put back on. Vice grips on that end, may bugger the shaft up enough where the impeller wouldn't go back on correctly.

The other alternative is heat, which was also suggested during the posts. Not knowing exactly what tools he has to work with. If he were to use a soldering gun, higher temp from them, and held it close to the bottom plate, and do the same thing with trying to twist it off. I gotta give him credit with getting the transformer and track connected correctly, and then getting the 682 in better running condition, but the Stone Wall was the whistle. My opinion is that if he resorts to taking to someone to repair it, they will most likely say it is a lost cause, and either sell him a replacement, or tell him what to get. It's now in his hands to decide.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

If you look closely at the pictures of his armature unless it is the pictures it does not look normal where it goes around the motor field. One picture looks to have a black goo on it too.

I would try some good penetrating spray, maybe PB Blaster? CRC wd-40. I seems that the armature might be stuck to the sides of the motor field?

I would spray it all over and let it sit for a while.

Spray it good all around it?


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Ed, never used PB Blaster before, but I do know about it. What effect does it have on enameled wire. The enameled wire is my only concern, when trying to attack the problem from the armature side. I know for sure that the acetone, or nail polish remover with acetone in it, would most likely eat away at the enameling.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Bruce, You have any suggestions on his problem? How would you attack it, if it were yours.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

teledoc said:


> Ed, never used PB Blaster before, but I do know about it. What effect does it have on enameled wire. The enameled wire is my only concern, when trying to attack the problem from the armature side. I know for sure that the acetone, or nail polish remover with acetone in it, would most likely eat away at the enameling.


I don't think it would hurt but do not know. Does not seem to have anything that would harm it.

Here is the site, http://www.blastercorp.com/PB_Blaster.html

Here is the SDS, http://www.blastercorp.com/images/sds/PB-Penetrating-Catalyst-Aerosol-OSHA-GHS-SDS-2015-06-03.pdf

Then use wd-40 or CRC, spray it let it sit, spray it some more let it sit.

I know the blaster does a good job on rusted stuck parts.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Another thought I had during the whole thread was to use a pair of side cutters, with a meaty set of jaws, and hold the die cast plate in his hand, and giving the shaft a good smack on the end of the shaft. A hammer would have been too unwieldy to use. Just use something with a large enough surface as the hammer face, and enough weight to give it a good whack. I didn't mention it though. Unlike you, TJ, "T". myself, and a few others, you some times have to "Think Outside the Box" for a solution to the problem. My mind usually runs at about Mach 1 anyway.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I hit the spinning thing out of the shaft completely, and nothing was on it.
I put it back in and it is stuck again until I hit it out again.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sam, From what you just posted, the armature and the shaft did come out of the rest of the whistle base. Is that correct, that you got it out!!


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Yeah I got it out


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, there has to be something on the shaft, like burrs or small nicks on it. There may be something inside the bearing race on the whistle plate. See if you can feel anything on the shaft. You can take a razor blade (single edge) or razor knife and scrape all the the sides of the shaft. Do you have nail polish remover accessible? If so, take a rag and wipe the shaft so it feels smooth and clean. As fa as the whistle base plate bearing, the only thing I can suggest is pipe cleaners, soaked with a strong solvent like acetone, and run it back and forth inside the bearing race. The try putting the shaft back in, and see if it spins freely. Oil the shaft before inserting it back in.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

If you can accomplish what I just described, and it does spin freely, then you can finish tuning up the rest, and reassemble it. The copper surfaces need to be polished up, clean out the 3 gaps between them, and check the brushes.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't see the small ball bearings


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

There are no ball bearing. The center part of the plate that the shaft rides in, or spins in, is what I call the bearing. To be more correct I should call it a "bearing race", it should be a different color than the plate. Probably brass or bronze. That part is usually pressed into the plate, for the shaft to ride in, that is softer than the die cast plate. Do you understand what I just said? I know you aren't used to the terminology, and what parts are called, and just trying to describe the parts, and not making fun of your lack of experience.

We collectively will get you up to speed with knowledge, and make you a repairman, if it kills us....ROFL!!


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I understood, but are able to that plate off


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Your reply doesn't make sense. What are you asking? If you have the armature which should be still on the shaft, you want to make sure the shaft is very clean smooth, from the bottom of the armature, to the end of the shaft. The center hole in the die cast plate (grey colored square piece) needs to be cleaned out also. Another thing to try, is put some oil on the shaft, and try inserting it on the opposite side, and turn it back and forth while putting it in. What you want to end up with is to have the shaft freely spin.

If you can get it to spin freely, then it should be able to be put back together.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I will try


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Don't rush it, it may take a couple of attempts, and try it a few times, until it feels like it will spin freely. That is the result you are looking for, to get the shaft to spin without hanging up. I'll ask a question, which is something else you can try. Do you have a cordless drill, or access to,one.?


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Why cordless drill?
I oiled some stuff, and I going to do that every day for a few days


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, You will have to visualize what the cordless drill will do. From your comments so far, you can pull the armature & shaft in and out of the whistle plate. It just doesn't want to spin freely, am I correct? You can put the armature back n, in the normal location it would be. If you have a cordless drill, you could stick the shaft on the impeller end into the chuck of the drill, and hold the square whistle plate in one hand, solidly, and turn the drill on, in short bursts, to get the shaft to ride in the bearing race smoothly. That's the best I can describe what to do with a cordless drill. A standard drill is too fast to use, whereas the cordless drill is less aggressive with its spin. It's just another thought to get you fixed up.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

My comment about the cordless drill, if you can understand my description, and can do that, it may smooth out the two surfaces of the bearing race, and the shaft, and let it spin freely.

If you can do that, and it does end up working, lube the hell it of the shaft, reinsert it, and put everything back together.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sam, I decided to go back to one photo of yours that Big Ed had enlarged, and then I looked at his whistle that he posted and examined them both. I have a sneaking suspicion, that someone tried to put a different armature assembly into the whistle you are trying to fix. The photo of yours, it looks like there is not much of a gap between the core, and the armature, where it should be able to spin easily. In Big Ed's photo the gap looks wider. This may be the whole problem all along, and not the shaft and the bearing race.

An easy test is to put the armature with the shaft in backwards, from the opposite side of the plate. If it spins real easy, then that would answer your dilemma.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

The power drill worked reallllllly well!
It really loosened it up!
I'm currently putting it back together.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

That was basically my last thought with using the drill. If you put the armature back in in the correct position, and you kind of twirl the shaft from the impeller side, does it spin real easy???


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

Yes it does spin easily.
Now all I have to do is solder the wires in place, and test it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Keep your fingers crossed that it all goes back together, (my fingers are crossed) as well. Then the ultimate test. The relay appeared to operate from your videos, so that won't be an issue. If it works, you now graduate to the head of the class!!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I have to get out of here for now. If you get it reassembled, tested and it works, post it back here. I want it to work for you.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*682 Loco missing rear 6 wheel truck*

One thing that we noticed with the 682 loco, it is missing the rear truck assembly. The Turbines are a 6-8-6 wheel arrangement. The missing part is #671-202 (rear truck assembly). The part is readily available, depending on where you want to look. It is listed many times on eBay. The parts are interchangeable on the 671/681/682/2020 turbines. There are only minor cosmetic details from each. You can also check numerous parts suppliers for the part. If you check the section up top in the "0"forum, under "Parts Source" , there is a post that lists the most popular parts dealers. There are too many to list.


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I got the whistle to work, but I solder a copper wire to a copper wire, so I tested it holding the wire, and I heard the whistle.
The one problem is that when the track is given power it will automatically whistle.
It might be the E- unit thing.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

One possibility is that the contacts on the relay are touching which would make the whistle blow constantly. Check the gap on the relay and make sure there is a gap with it sitting on the track, with power to the track. That is only thing I can think of right now.

BUT.....the whistle does work!!!!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

A quick thing to do is take a small piece of paper and put it between the relay contacts, so it wouldn't be making contact, and put it on the powered track. If it doesn't whistle, you know the gap needs tweaking.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I haven't gotten a response to checking the relay on the whistle, but hopefully the relay is now the last hurdle to getting both the Loco and Tender in working order. The fact that you did get the whistle to work again, after many many attempts to find the fix, is a major accomplishment, and you should be proud of yourself for getting it working again, with so many problems that you started with. If you do find that the relay is the problem, and get it straightened out, just pop a quick response that everything is working. For the amount of days we went through, we want to know the results.

Jerry (teledoc)


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## callmeIshmael2 (May 28, 2012)

This has been a fun thread to follow. I also learned some "tweaking" stuff to do w/whistle tenders, so thanks to everyone, esp. Teledoc. Sam has learned some new electronic and engineering stuff and has made some online friends. I love this site-great input from people who know how to instruct without making someone feel dumb...


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

callmeIshmael2, Thanks, but I wasn't in this alone, and there were PM's in the background from a few others, trying to come up with a solution. At least 5 years ago, I wouldn't even attempt to try and fix or restore what I own. Thanks to the forum, I have advanced my knowledge by Leaps and Bounds, and when I think I can help, I will jump in and give my ideas. I love trying to fix broken things, that some say is junk, or not worth it. It's the challenge, and you sometimes have to get very creative with a solution. I also am a firm believer of the KISS method. Keep It Simple Stupid!! Don't over complicate things. My last shot with his whistle was to use a cordless drill and spin the armature assembly, to try and smooth out the two surfaces. Dumb as it sounded, when I suggested it, but it apparently worked in his favor.

He may decide to get into doing his own repairs, and may get more things along the way. I just didn't want to give up on him.

For anyone that followed this thread, and would like to get some good info on whistles, I am attaching a link to Olsen's Toy Train Parts, who has a Library section on their website, for anyone to read and use. It is found under the Lionel Accessories section, and then Remote Whistle control. It has information on Prewar whistles, but is pertinent to Postwar as well. I found info that was not in my repair manual, so it was worth reading. The link is here:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=1841


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## tootle (Dec 11, 2013)

Give this a try...http://www.justtrains.com/Service/maint-main.asp

Just page through and you'll get a pretty good primer on how to maintain your engine. In a nutshell, oil on the axles and light grease (or oil) on the gears. You don't need anything fancy, as mentioned above 5/20 motor oil will do just fine.

If you want to go a bit further, there may be a wick on the motor brushplate that will take a few drops of oil as well, and a grease reservoir inside the engine where the motor shaft meets the wheel gears. Do NOT put oil on the motor brushes (the things in the motor brushplate that look like screw heads held down by springs).

Good Luck!


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## slapsam101 (Dec 30, 2015)

I can't solder a copper wire to a copper wire, I need a need solder material/ alloy.
Any ideas?


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## Bdobson45 (Dec 5, 2012)

I enjoyed the nearly real time trouble shooting on this one. I was at this place one a few years ago and now I can do my own stuff due to the great resources of the inter web.


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