# BEGINNER TO O SCALE TRAINS.



## Frank6791

Hi. I am a beginner to O scale traines. I have a 4x8 sheet of plywood on sawhorses. I have a beginner train set. It is the Polar Express. It is the one with the lion chief controller. Right now i have the basic oval/circle on top of the plywood and the Polar Express train is going around the oval/circle. 
My question is: how do I expand my layout so it is more than just a train going around a circle. I would like to have a layout where I could run 2 or 3 trains at the same time. Also what transformers would I need and how many. I am a beginner just starting out. This is all new to me. Any info is much appreciated. Thanks.


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## Wood

Hi Frank and welcome to the forum. I notice this is post #1 for you!!

Answering your question is like trying to cram a lifetime into a paragraph. Don't rush it. You received a transformer in the beginner kit. It will work for everything you can put on a 4X8 sheet.. Search this forum and look for titles about layouts. You will see what others have done and how they did it. I started with a 4X8 sheet like many others. Search the internet. Read, Read, Read. Search for Kalmback publishing, Dennis Brennan, and Eric's trains they have many inexpensive tablet like books, videos and YouTube tutorials about how to build a layout, how to build mountains, how to wire the layout, etc. You will need those resources. Finally, this group will give you tips and direction. They will give you the answers. 

In many ways the model train hobby is an art and the only way to get good at it is to watch and practice. You'll get better and better and better!! The most important thing is to have fun. This will cost a little money and having fun really makes it all worth while.


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## Frank6791

The transformer that came with my stater kit is the LionCheif remote control system. I did not know it would control everything I could put on a 4x8 sheet.


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## Lehigh74

Frank,

In addition to Wood’s advice, I would recommend going to a train meet. You should be able to see and learn a lot there and probably pick up a few goodies. Where are you in PA? If you are anywhere near Hamburg, PA, I would go to the meet there on July 30. If not, check for meets in your area or see where your local TCA division has their meets.

If you add trains with passenger cars that have incandescent lights, the wall wart that came with the Lionchief set might not have enough power. There are a few ways to go for more power. If you are planning to stick with a hand held like the Lionchief or Lionchief Plus you can get a power brick. I’m not familiar with power bricks, but I think they have good circuit protection. You could also go for a post war Lionel transformer, but you would want circuit breakers or fuses and TVS diodes to protect the PC board in modern engines in case of a short. Here is some info on post war transformers. I use 2 ZWs for a 20x20 U shaped layout.

http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lioneltransformers.htm


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## Spence

Frank; welcome to the forum. I would recommend reading everything (magazines, web sites, etc.) you can before doing anything.


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## Guest

Welcome aboard Frank. The one thing I would add to the good advice already given is to take your time. When you begin it's hard to know what you want in a layout. As you gain experience you will discover what you really like and what you really don't. If you expand to 5x9 you will have plenty of room to run 2 trains. It's a good idea to build a small layout even if you have the room and money for a much bigger layout. Most of us build many layouts over a lifetime in the hobby so the first one doesn't have to be perfect.


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## seayakbill

Welcome to the forum. I have been building layouts for over 60 years, take your time and enjoy running your trains.

Bill


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## Guest

Most of us started out with a 4x8 sheet of plywood. For me, it was 70 years ago.

Since you selected the PE set, why not build a North Pole layout around your set? Christmas is not that far away. 

View attachment 325785


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## Frank6791

Passenger train collector. How big is your layout. Your layout looks nice. Since I am a biginner I am trying to find out how to make a layout where I can run more than one train at the same time. I do not know what's involved.


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## DennyM

Welcome to the forum Frank.

This DVD helped me build my layout. I started with a 4X8 now it's a 6X8 with a 11ft extension.


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## DennyM

That's a nice layout Brian.


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## Lehigh74

Frank – You could run two short trains simply by getting another Lionchief engine with remote. Each remote controls one train (unless they are the same model…then one remote will control them both). You probably want to add some track to use the full 4X8 plywood sheet. You would need to keep an eye on them so they run the same speed and don’t collide. You can also get more track to make two ovals.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh,I was thinking about 2 ovals before. One inner oval and then an outer oval. If that is what you are taking about. Having seperate trains running on each of the ovals. Then I did not know how I would get the trains to run. Meaning do I need one transformer or 2 transformers. Which transformer to use and how to hook the transformer up.


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## Frank6791

Denny, thank you for mentioning the video. I will look into it.


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## Guest

Frank, that layout was 25x8 ft. 

You can run two trains in a 4x8 ft. space. 0-31 & 0-42 curves would work. Don't get too complicated with track as it will chew up a lot of space with not much room for scenery.

WELCOME to the MTF.


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## Agent027

Frank, for starters, most starter sets have always come with a power source (a transformer) just big enough to run the train that came in the set. There have been some sets made that came with larger more powerful transformers that allow more immediate growth of the layout.

The wall-wart that comes with most LionChief sets is along the lines as most starter sets ever made... powerful enough to run the trains that came in that set.

You can run your LionChief train using a transformer instead of the wall wart. Depending on the power requirements of the trains, you could use something like a 90 watt transformer to run two LionChief on separate loops.

Financially, the most economical way to expand your layout is to find another LionChief set that you like. You'll get another wall wart, another engine, more cars and more track.

Here's a useful website with loads of information. http://www.thortrains.net/

Although there isn't anything I can find about the newer Lionel LionChief trains, specifically here's a link to the FasTrack layout designs for a 4'x8' board. http://www.thortrains.net/marx/48fastrack1.html

Nothing for 2 train loops, but you could either adapt on of the plans, leaving room for an outer loop, or you could have an over head loop.

*MOST OF ALL, take your time and enjoy.* Look for videos on YouTube for small Lionel layouts or 4x8 Lionel layouts. Go to some shows if you can, as suggested before.

Sometimes using the search function of Google will get you more potential answers than trying to use the search function of the specific model train forums.


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## Frank6791

Thanks. If running 2 trains would you use one transformer or 2. How would you hook up the transformers. The only transformer I have is the lioncheif controller that came with my Polar express starter set. Do you use that to run to trains or buy another transformer. As a beginner I do not know.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Typically, you'd consider one larger transformer for running multiple locomotives.


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## Guest

Frank, you could use one transformer if you had a bigger transformer like a CW 80 watt transformer. You could buy another set and run each train from it's own transformer as long as they are running on separate, that is unconnected, tracks. An example would be each train running on an independent loop.


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## Frank6791

Joe. I have a starter train on one loop. It is controlled buy a lioncheif controller. Just like you said, the easiest thing to do is get another lioncheif train set put it on its on loop that way both trains are on their own loop and both trains are controlled buy their own lioncheif controller.


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## DennyM

Frank, keep in mind if you do use a bigger transformer you need to put it to 18v to run LC+ or any RC engine. Like Agent027 said, "take your time and enjoy".


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## Frank6791

I do not know if lioncheif is so good. I have to questions. First, I have my Polar express lioncheif train setup on my 4x8 platform. I have one oval and the train is going around the oval. The one end of the wall wart gets plugged into the track and the other end plugs into an out let. I control train with remote. My question is if I build an inside oval and run another lioncheif train on it how do you hook the wall wart up so the train is not running over it. I can not see how to put an inside oval and hook up the wall wart to the inside oval without train running over wire. Unless I can use 1 transformer to run both lioncheif trains and eliminate the wall wart altogether. I do not know. How would I hookup/set up both lioncheif trains to run on one transformer. Thanks.


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## c.midland

Drill a hole in the plywood and feed the wire that connects to the track through it.


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## DennyM

Fastrack has connectors underneath so you can solder or plug in wires. Like Midland says drill a hole under the inside and outside loops to connect the two loops to the transformer. The picture shows plug connectors, but you can solder them too.


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## Frank6791

If I want to do away with the lioncheif remote altogether what transformer should I buy and how do I hook it up.


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## Lehigh74

I mentioned a few options for transformers back in post #4. The link there has a bunch of postwar transformers along with their power rating. They are in my opinion, the best bang for the buck, but you will need circuit protection. They can be had for reasonable bucks at most train meets. No need to get rid of your remote. It will work as long as you have some voltage on the tracks. Actually, you need the remote since the Lionchief won't run in conventional.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh. If I get one of those transformers you mentioned how do I hook it up. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, LionChief engines will not run without the remote. LionChief Plus locos can run either with or without the remote and have other features that LionChief doesn't. The remote will work with any transformer. The remote is a wireless controller that talks directly to the locomotive. You could use any transformer just to provide power to the tracks.


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## Lehigh74

Frank6791 said:


> Lehigh. If I get one of those transformers you mentioned how do I hook it up. Thanks.


Connect the common terminal to the outer rails and the AC to the center rail.

If you plan to stick with only modern locos with hand held remotes, get a brick with good circuit protection.

If you think you may someday run conventional engines (such as postwar or Williams) you should get a post war transformer. You could also get a modern transformer with throttles, but you will pay more. For a postwar transformer, install a 10A fuse or 5A magnetic hydraulic circuit breaker in line with the AC between the transformer and the track. Install the TVS diode between the common and AC wherever you feed power to the track. You can get the mini fuses and fuse holders at any auto parts store. Here are some links.

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...-airpax/PP21-2-5.00A-OA-S/723-1263-ND/2781052

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/littelfuse-inc/0297010.WXNV/F991-ND/146591

https://www.digikey.com/product-det....5KE36CA-E3-54/1.5KE36CA-E3-54GITR-ND/2142871

I would go for at least a 90W transformer. I am partial to the ZW…at 275 watts, it should be able to power a lot of expansion, they are easy to find and it just looks like a transformer should look. If you may one day get into MTH locos, avoid the Lionel CW80 transformer.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh you just mention how to hook up the transformer. Is that how to hook it with fastrack because that is what i am using. 
Also I want to be able to run any type of O gauge trains. Thanks


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## Lehigh74

Frank6791 said:


> Lehigh you just mention how to hook up the transformer. Is that how to hook it with fastrack because that is what i am using.
> Also I want to be able to run any type of O gauge trains. Thanks


I don't use Fastrack, but Denny has a photo above with Fastrack hookups.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh. Question. Since I am new to this. If I hook up a transformer to my lioncheif train. Does the transformer actually run the train or it is just for power. Meaning if it is just for power I would still have to use lioncheif remote to control it. Thanks


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## Lehigh74

As Joe said above, the Lionchief will not run without the remote. You need around 18V to the track and the remote will control how much of that voltage is fed to the motor. That's the big difference between Lionchief and Lionchief plus. The Lionchief plus will also work like a conventional engine with the throttle handle of the transformer adjusting the voltage to the track and engine.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh. the post war transformer I am going to look into getting one of them. Would I be able to run every type of O guage train on the market with that transformer. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh,once I find where to buy the transformer I will purchase it. Thanks


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## Lehigh74

Frank6791 said:


> Lehigh. the post war transformer I am going to look into getting one of them. Would I be able to run every type of O guage train on the market with that transformer. Thanks.


They will run the vast majority of engines…anything that’s meant to take AC. There were some Lionel starter sets back in the 80’s that only took DC. I’m not sure if any like that are made today, but you see them sometimes on eBay. Also, not all of the postwar transformers had a whistle button so if you were to get a 1034 or a Z, it would not work the whistle on a postwar engine.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh, I will look on eBay. Thank you. It is probably better to run my lioncheif train with a transformer because the transformer is more upgradable.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh, thanks so much. What is the going rate or what would one be looking to pay for one of the zw post war transformers you have. If you know. Thanks.


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## DennyM

Frank, here's one on Ebay. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/POSTWAR-LIO...718102?hash=item33ccb49256:g:ukUAAOSw7U5Y89oY


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## Frank6791

Thank you. I saw them on eBay. The lowest price I saw was 99. I just did not know if that was a good price.


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## DennyM

It's a great price, but I would contact the seller to see if is in good operating condition.


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## gunrunnerjohn

If you want a ZW, don't take a chance, this is a guy that is a skilled rebuilder. He makes them like new, worth the extra bucks.

http://www.tranz4mr.com/For_Sale.html


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## DennyM

I would go with who gunrunnnerjohn recommends. These are very old transformers you want one that is in good working order. There are newer versions. but using a older one is a good start.


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## 1953cos

Frank, if you are looking to learn you can't do better than reading this forum daily.


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## Frank6791

Thanks. I will read this forum daily.


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## Frank6791

Buying another train or train set: since I am a beginner i would like to know what would be a good train or train set to buy. I all ready have a train set this would be a second train or train set. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank, if you're free this weekend, consider dropping by the North Penn O gaugers Run For Fun. We'll be running trains all weekend, and there will be plenty of folks to talk to about O-gauge trains, including myself.


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## Lehigh74

John,

Frank’s locations says Pa, but his profile says Canada. He may not be there at Harry’s, but I would like to. I thought you guys stopped doing it after Harry’s engine was stolen. The Facebook link says 2016. Is it this weekend? Today? Or next weekend 7/22 and 7/23?


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## DennyM

Lehigh, I just looked at his profile and is says PA.


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## Lehigh74

DennyM said:


> Lehigh, I just looked at his profile and is says PA.


It was just changed in the last few minutes to say US.


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## Lehigh74

Frank6791 said:


> Buying another train or train set: since I am a beginner i would like to know what would be a good train or train set to buy. I all ready have a train set this would be a second train or train set. Thanks.


Besides GRJ, no one has responded to this question. Maybe because there are too many choices.

Pre war, post war, Lionel, MTH, Williams, Atlas, LC, LC+?

How much do you want to spend?

Do you want to stick with command or do you want to try conventional operation?

Do you want something new, used, antique?

Diesel, steam?

You really should go to a train meet in your area. You could find that ZW, talk to some train guys and maybe pick up another nice engine.


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## Chiefmcfuz

As you can see I have a mixture of Conventional sets, Lionchief Sets, and misc Prewar and Postwar things. You can't go wrong buying starter sets. My only suggestion is to get a regular transformer and stop using the power supply from the Lionchief starter sets. The floor setup below was powered by 1 CW80 with 2 Lionchief locomotives on it.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I will also state this for the record. I am certainly not an advanced hobbyist. My skills and knowledge are to a beginner which means that I am not giving advice I am just sharing what I have done.


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## Lehigh74

Hey Frank - Did you find a ZW yet? If not, check Harry Lutz. He is located in Bethlehem, PA and you can normally see him at the Hamburg and Allentown shows. I've bought a few transformers from him and not had any problems. His email is [email protected], phone 610-442-9620.


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## DennyM

Lehigh74 said:


> Hey Frank - Did you find a ZW yet? If not, check Harry Lutz. He is located in Bethlehem, PA and you can normally see him at the Hamburg and Allentown shows. I've bought a few transformers from him and not had any problems. His email is [email protected], phone 610-442-9620.


I bought a postwar ZW from Harry Lutz at York back in 2015. It works great, but I wanted a ZW-C so I traded the postwar ZW for the ZW-C. Larry has fair prices and guarantees his work.


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## DennyM

Lehigh74 said:


> Besides GRJ, no one has responded to this question. Maybe because there are too many choices.
> 
> Pre war, post war, Lionel, MTH, Williams, Atlas, LC, LC+?
> 
> How much do you want to spend?
> 
> Do you want to stick with command or do you want to try conventional operation?
> 
> Do you want something new, used, antique?
> 
> Diesel, steam?
> 
> You really should go to a train meet in your area. You could find that ZW, talk to some train guys and maybe pick up another nice engine.


Keep it simple. It's really hard to say what to buy without being there to demonstrate it.


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## Frank6791

Gunrunner. The train show you are talking about is in sellersvill. Pa turn pike and Plymouth meeting is about 20 min from my house. How far is sellersvill from pa turn pike or Plymouth meeting.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz. I am going to stop using the power supply that came with the lioncheif set and start using a transformer. Cw-80 is what you use. Other people recommend zw 275 watt pre war transformers.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I only use the cw80 for now. Every set I bought came with one so I have a few of them. They are a good transformer but it is limited. If you want to expand definitely look into a ZW or a Z4000. My situation is temporary setups so the CW80 works nice for me for now.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Wow, I realized that my statement had a doozy of a typo in it. I am not a "TOP RND beginner" LMAO! I am " TO A BEGINNER"


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## Frank6791

Cheufmcfuz. I am so glad you chimed in. I have the polar express set and it is lioncheif. This is my first set I am running because I am a beginner. If I get a transformer. How do I hook it up to Lionel fast track. Also what is a good price for a transformer. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, how would I hook a transformer up to fast track when I get one. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh. Harry lutz is a train guy that sells transformers. What does he do. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Lehigh74 said:


> John,
> 
> Frank’s locations says Pa, but his profile says Canada. He may not be there at Harry’s, but I would like to. I thought you guys stopped doing it after Harry’s engine was stolen. The Facebook link says 2016. Is it this weekend? Today? Or next weekend 7/22 and 7/23?


It's the 22nd and 23rd. We recovered the engine, interesting story.  I have the keys to the back room, so I check IP addresses to determine locations, I corrected Frank's profile to say US.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank6791 said:


> Gunrunner. The train show you are talking about is in sellersvill. Pa turn pike and Plymouth meeting is about 20 min from my house. How far is sellersvill from pa turn pike or Plymouth meeting.


It's 30 minutes from the TP intersection at Plymouth Meeting, here's the Google Maps Link: https://goo.gl/maps/Qquk547fuqH2


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## Lehigh74

Frank6791 said:


> Lehigh. Harry lutz is a train guy that sells transformers. What does he do. Thanks.


If you can wait two weeks for your ZW, go to the Hamburg Dutch Train Meet and you can ask him yourself. He’s been to every Hamburg meet that I have been to, but you might want to email him first to make sure he’ll be there. I put his email and phone on post #54. Here is a link for the meet info and the address.

https://pa-vendors.com/events/berks-county/hamburg-pa-july-summer-hamburg-dutch-train-meet/

Hamburg Field House,
123 South 4th Street,
Hamburg PA 19526


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## Frank6791

John,where is the train show located. From what I have found it is in sellersvill. I heard of it but do not know exactly where it is. 
John. Have you ever been to the expo center in Oaks pa for a train show. I do not live to far from Osks. I never went their because a guy I work with live right buy that expo center and he said it is small and gets very crowded.


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## Frank6791

John, sorry I just saw your direction thanks. Sellersvill is not that far from me. It takes me 20-25 min to get to turn pike.


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## sjm9911

Hi, welcome. I would stear clear of the cw 80s, some in the past didn't work so good. And if someone is selling them I would hate for you to get a lemon.


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## Frank6791

SJM,thanks. What do you recommend. What transformers do you use.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank they have terminal tracks and someone put a picture in this thread in the beginning of it with how to connect with just wires.


Again I am far from being an advanced user but I have 6 cw 80s and all work fine.


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## Chiefmcfuz

DennyM said:


> Fastrack has connectors underneath so you can solder or plug in wires. Like Midland says drill a hole under the inside and outside loops to connect the two loops to the transformer. The picture shows plug connectors, but you can solder them too.
> 
> View attachment 326249


Here is the picture I was talking about.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, I like your set up. You have 2 loops and a separate train running on each loop. The transformer is hooked up to only one track. Both of your trains they are controlled by lioncheif controllers. Also how is yours hooked up are you using a terminal track or accessory wires. I might duplicate your setup. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz. Just curious. Do you like lioncheif. That is what I have. I am undecided if I like it.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz,you layout in the picture that is on the floor do you think you will eventually put it on a platform. I have my train on a 4x8 sheet of plywood which is on top of sawhorses.


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## Chiefmcfuz

No. I will be setting up another layout when I get to work on my train room. I am not sure exactly what the layout is going to be, I am still working on it. I have an mth z4000 that I was going to use to power the layout but I am not sure if I want to just get rid of it and use a couple cw 80s for the accessories and a lionel zw for the setup.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, I want to duplicate your layout in the picture. You like running your track on the floor. Do you like lioncheif.


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## sjm9911

Exactly what I did before I took down my layout. I used the smaller transformers for lights and accessories and the zw for the track power. I think you can get by with a kw of a little 1033 for now. If you get into it and go bigger you can always pick up a zw! The zw , is supper cool though , especially if your nostalgic.


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## Frank6791

SJM, what kind of layout do you have now. What track do you use.


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## Chiefmcfuz

sjm9911 said:


> Exactly what I did before I took down my layout. I used the smaller transformers for lights and accessories and the zw for the track power. I think you can get by with a kw of a little 1033 for now. If you get into it and go bigger you can always pick up a zw! The zw , is supper cool though , especially if your nostalgic.


I have my dad's. It is a very good unit but it hasn't been used in about 25 years. Last time I set it up I think I was in high school.


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## Frank6791

I am just really on the fence about lioncheif. I like controlling trains with a transformer. I am a beginner maybe somebody feels lioncheif is better. Let me know. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I haven't controlled trains regularly with a transformer for years except for repairs. I'm 100% sold on command operation.  I have mostly TMCC/Legacy and MTH DCS, but I do have one LionChief Plus, the Camelback.


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## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> I am just really on the fence about lioncheif. I like controlling trains with a transformer. I am a beginner maybe somebody feels lioncheif is better. Let me know. Thanks.


You can run a LionChief Plus with a transformer, but not LionChief. You can always go strictly conventional. It's not about better, but more of a preference. Like I said keep it simple. Conventional engines are a simple as it gets. Williams and Williams By Bachmann are very reliable engines. The main difference is engines that were made before Bachmann bought them out.


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## Frank6791

John,you like command operation of trains. What do most people use when it comes to command operation. What is the most popular.


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## sjm9911

I moved and haven't set up a new layout yet. I used the old tubular track as it was what I remembered as a kid As for conventional vs command options, it gets complicated and expensive. There are high end command options like legacy that require a command base and controller, and there is the lion chief stuff witch is more affordable. I ran conventional, witch is basically controlled via transformer. If you get a transformer you can set it for the luncheon voltage and run with that. Or if you get conventional stuff you can just run it with the transformer. To get command stuff you need the base and a command equipped engine.


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## Lee Willis

I too love to run locos in conventional. It's the way I did it as a kid and I love it. 

One thing to keep in mind is that Lionchief is the _only _type of three-rail locomotive that _won't _run conventionally. 

Basically, there are locos available for five different control systems that are for sale now.

Conventional - runs in conventional only
DCS - runs in conventional or using MTH's DCS system
Legacy/TMSS - runs in conventional or using Lionel's digital track-based control system
Lionchief Plus - runs in conventional or using Lionel's Lionchief remote radio system 
Lionchief - runs _only _with the Lionchief remote system

This is a big reason I avoid Lionchief (no plus) locos. 
I avoid conventional only locos because they do not have cruise control.


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## Frank6791

Lee, from what I gather the best way to run trains is the conventional way with a transformer. I also agree with you I should have never got my lioncheif train.


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## sjm9911

It's not the best way, it's all about what you like. I think Lee has mostly lion cheif stuff so he can easily run multiple trains on the same track easily with a hand held controller. With conventional, that's hard to do, if not impossible.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Everyone has their idea about what the "best" way to run trains is. I happen to think the "best" way is by command control, either Lionel Legacy/TMCC or MTH DCS. This is an opinion of one, just like all the others touting their "best" way to run trains.


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## Frank6791

SJM, what is luncheon voltage on a transformer.


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## gunrunnerjohn

The *Luncheon* voltage? I cook mine at about 24 volts! 

What exactly are you asking?


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> SJM, what is luncheon voltage on a transformer.


All kidding aside, I think you have a typo there.


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## Frank6791

John, how much is command control vs a transformer. Thanks.


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## highvoltage

Command control only provides the commands to locomotives, you'll still need a power source to provide power to the rails.

Most people use a transformer to provide power because you can get a fairly substantial power source for reasonable money.

Therefore, command control will be an additional cost on top of the cost of your power source.


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## Frank6791

Highvoltage, question: if command control is only the controller and you still need a power source and most people use a transformer for the power source. Highvoltage then why don't people just use a transformer for the power source and controls.


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## gunrunnerjohn

What he said. 

Clearly, to go for command control, you'll be spending more money, both for the command system and the individual locomotives. I happen to believe it's worth it for all the extra functionality you get, but like I said previously, everyone has their own opinion and reasons for choosing the type of running they do.


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage, question: if command control is only the controller and you still need a power source and most people use a transformer for the power source. Highvoltage then why don't people just use a transformer for the power source and controls.


Some do. Others have determined that the extra functions provided by command control (cruise control, smoke control, crew dialogue, to name a few) are worth the extra money.

On large layouts with only a transformer you'd be stuck with your hand on the throttle, so to speak. With some sort of command remote you can move around and have full control.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with transformer only. It's what most of us grew up. Others have forayed into command control and have never looked back.

As suggested in an earlier post, go visit a train club and talk to some of the people there. Run some trains, I'm sure they'll let you. See the operations first hand and then decide for yourself if it's worth the extras expense.

I was like you a few years ago. I was just getting into this hobby after being off for decades. But I hung out on this board and read what I could get my hands on. Eventually it all started to make sense.

Good luck and have fun!


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

Like I said Frank, we're having the NPOG Run for Fun Open House this weekend, a good place to see command operation of a variety of equipment, steam and diesel.


----------



## Lee Willis

sjm9911 said:


> It's not the best way, it's all about what you like. I think Lee has mostly lion cheif stuff so he can easily run multiple trains on the same track easily with a hand held controller. With conventional, that's hard to do, if not impossible.


Yes, what I really prefer is simple. legacy and DCs are too much "technial overhead" for me. When I had Legacy the control was phenomenal - I could control everything, but I had to spend time programming and adjusting. Got old. 

LC+ is the only system I have found so far besides conventional that is mindlessly simple. I have twenty-three LC+ locos and wear by the steamers - fantastic runners and bulletproof. I swear at the diesels, at least the two-motor ones, six of which have had many of which give problems. 

But I have 90+ DCS or Legacy locos, which I run in conventional. This week is typical, one LC+ and two legacy steamers running in conventional. 

What I also like, although I am not doing it this week, is that if you know how, you can run conventional and LC+ on the same track, which is cool.


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## Frank6791

Lee I am going to do what you do. Only run LC+ and conventional trains. Thanks


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Lee I am going to do what you do. Only run LC+ and conventional trains. Thanks


Sounds like a good way to get started.


----------



## DennyM

highvoltage said:


> Some do. Others have determined that the extra functions provided by command control (cruise control, smoke control, crew dialogue, to name a few) are worth the extra money.
> 
> On large layouts with only a transformer you'd be stuck with your hand on the throttle, so to speak. With some sort of command remote you can move around and have full control.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with transformer only. It's what most of us grew up. Others have forayed into command control and have never looked back.
> 
> As suggested in an earlier post, go visit a train club and talk to some of the people there. Run some trains, I'm sure they'll let you. See the operations first hand and then decide for yourself if it's worth the extras expense.
> 
> I was like you a few years ago. I was just getting into this hobby after being off for decades. But I hung out on this board and read what I could get my hands on. Eventually it all started to make sense.
> 
> Good luck and have fun!


Frank, a lot of us were where you are now. I got back into the hobby 6 or 7 years ago and I ran conventional. About three years ago I started running command. Now I have four Legacy engines, four TMCC engines and I had a LC+ engine which I no longer have. I still run conventional and have several conventional engines including one postwar my dad bought me in 1960. Of course it helps having a friend who is a Lionel tech to show you the ropes.


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## Frank6791

Lee, I think I am going to do what you do. Just run LC+ and conventional trains.


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## Frank6791

Lee, what is a universal lioncheif remote.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

Question, maybe for GRJ. For what I have been told, three rail O sized models are "O Gage". Whereas two rail is called "O Scale". However everything I see on this forum is called O Scale. Am I making too much out of nothing? Or should there be an O Gage topic. I hope that this post doesn't offend anyone because I am just merely interested. :laugh:


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## sjm9911

There used to be a sticky for this question! Guage is the spacing between the rails and scale is just that, the proportions to actual size. A scale of 1: 1 is actual size. As for the trains, depending upon how, who and when they were made determines the scale. Most just say and thing on 3 rail is 0 scale. Others break it down to toy and actual size. Prewar stuff was smaller, post war was a bit bigger but size was more determined by how much you spent! The costlier stuff was truer to scale. The beginnersets were smaller.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I have quite a few Lionchief and Lionchief plus locos and I really like them. So what I am saying is that do what you want but don't write something off until you have tried it.


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## teledoc

BrokeCurmudgeon, As sjm9911 stated in his post, "gauge & scale" are totally different, and what confuses people. GAUGE refers to the spacing between the outer rails of model trains, in our context. It also refers to real life railroads. There are many 'Toy Train' gauges from 2 7/8" trains, down to "Z" gauge. For 027 & "0" gauge the rails are 1 1/4" apart from outside rail to outside rail.

Scale has to refer to the SIZE, whereas true scale is 1:1. The typical, repeat typical scale for 027 & 0 is 1/45-1/48 of an actual Train loco or rolling stock. At 1/48 scale it would take 48 cars/locos placed end to end, to equal the real life 'true' scale item.

The difference of 0 or 027 is merely the height of the rails. 027 stands 7/16" high, and 0 track stands 11/16" high. The 027 track configured in a circle is 27" diameter, and the smallest 0 track is 31" diameter, but can be larger. Hopefully this clears up the major differences.


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## sjm9911

Doc, any chance at getting the stickys back? I loved the pictures with the side by side comparisons for scale stuff!


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz. I like your layout. Give me the specifics so I can build the same layout. Thanks


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## BrokeCurmudgeon

teledoc said:


> BrokeCurmudgeon, As sjm9911 stated in his post, "gauge & scale" are totally different, and what confuses people. GAUGE refers to the spacing between the outer rails of model trains, in our context. It also refers to real life railroads. There are many 'Toy Train' gauges from 2 7/8" trains, down to "Z" gauge. For 027 & "0" gauge the rails are 1 1/4" apart from outside rail to outside rail.
> 
> Scale has to refer to the SIZE, whereas true scale is 1:1. The typical, repeat typical scale for 027 & 0 is 1/45-1/48 of an actual Train loco or rolling stock. At 1/48 scale it would take 48 cars/locos placed end to end, to equal the real life 'true' scale item.
> 
> The difference of 0 or 027 is merely the height of the rails. 027 stands 7/16" high, and 0 track stands 11/16" high. The 027 track configured in a circle is 27" diameter, and the smallest 0 track is 31" diameter, but can be larger. Hopefully this clears up the major differences.


I understood that. I was asking why 3 rail people refer to their trains as "O Scale" when I thought that "O Scale referred to the scale of the model. Also, "O Scale referred to 2 rail modeled in the actual scale (1:48). Maybe I am wrong as I seem to generally be so nowadays but I try to be accurate.
O Guage = 3 rail track, O Scale = 2 rail track. Both somewhat close to 1:48 to the foot. Please correct my thinking.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## highvoltage

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> ... Both somewhat close to 1:48 to the foot...


Actually it's 1 inch = 4 feet, or 1/4 inch to the foot.

Some of the confusion comes from different scales by country:

UK O scale is 1:43.5 (hence HO or half-O becomes 1:87)
US O scale is 1:48


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## Guest

BrokeCurmudgeon said:


> I understood that. I was asking why 3 rail people refer to their trains as "O Scale" when I thought that "O Scale referred to the scale of the model. Also, "O Scale referred to 2 rail modeled in the actual scale (1:48). Maybe I am wrong as I seem to generally be so nowadays but I try to be accurate.
> O Guage = 3 rail track, O Scale = 2 rail track. Both somewhat close to 1:48 to the foot. Please correct my thinking.:smilie_daumenpos:


I refer to 3 rail as O gauge, even when it is true O scale, and 2 rail as O scale. I do this to easily differentiate 2 rail from 3 rail, and I think most 3 rail O guys use the terms the same way.

O scale is as close to 1:48 scale as possible, the same as HO is as close to 1:87 scale as possible.

3 rail scale is also as close to 1:48 scale as possible with the exception of wheels and couplers so they can run on 3 rail track and couple with all other 3 rail O gauge trains. These are advertised and sold as scale models.

Other O gauge can be semi-scale that is very close to full scale size, or nowhere near O scale, sometimes closer to S scale, but all run on 3 rail O gauge track.

I hope this helps.


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## Frank6791

How do you make the layout in post 52-53. Is that 2 loops conecteced buy 2 switches. I wanted to make this layout.


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## Frank6791

I want to get into switches so i thought the layout in post 52-53 would be the easiest to duplicate.


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## Frank6791

If somebody does not mind could you please give me a nice introduction or how to on switches. I would appreciate it. Thank you.


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## sjm9911

He has lionel fast track in the picture, you need a left and right hand switch. You should first decide if your going to use fast track. If you have some all ready and will not be building a huge layout, it's a good choice. There are different radious switches, some locomotives are larger and will not navigate the smaller switches. I believe the fast track switches are 036 so there bigger then the tubular track ones. The do make bigger switches also.


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## Frank6791

I already have Lionel fast track. I just did not know what size switches to buy. If I am making a big layout do not use fast track


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## Frank6791

I really need a good introduction to switches. If someone could give me one that would be great. Thanks.


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## sjm9911

Switches, like track and command or conventional running of trains , is like we said before, up to the end user. Some like current things. I like the tubular track because of its cost and its nostalgic. Some don't like fast track because its noisy. 

Now to switches, they as in the name switch trains between tracks. Lionel and most 3 rail switches have a auto derailing feature if they are not manual switches. So if the train hit the switch and its not in the correct orientation it will automatically switch so your train doesn't derail. ( ok this is for the newer stuff, some lionel switches don't have this feature) . Manual switches are changed by hand, no electronics required. Switches also come in a variety of diameters, racetrack starts at 030 I believe ( I don't run fastrack) , then probably 042, and so on. Some info , https://www.trainz.com/pages/the-guide-to-lionel-fastrack


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## sjm9911

Some plans https://www.trainz.com/pages/track-plans-and-ideas


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## sjm9911

More, click on fasttrack plans http://www.lionel.com/articles/lionel-fastrack-layouts/ , this will get you started, one of these plans is the same as the one you wanted, just extend the loop in the rear of the plan


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## Frank6791

SJM, what is tubular track. Thanks.


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## sjm9911

And more still  http://www.thortrains.net/marx/48fastrack1.html you get the idea! Now take a look and see what you like!


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## Chiefmcfuz

Those are 4 switches. 2 left and 2 right. O36 fastrack switches.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz I did not know their was 4 switches on your fast track layout.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz: 
So I need 4 switches if I want to duplicate your layout. Do you use any other track besides fast track.


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## sjm9911

This is tubular track.


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## Frank6791

Sorry but can not open picture of tubular track.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, if your out their I need 4 switches for the layout in the picture. Also do you use any other track besides fast track. I like fast track because it can sit on top of my 4x8 sheet of plywood and not have to be nailed or glued down.


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## DennyM

Frank, _never_ glue or nail track down. If you want to fasten it down use small wood screws


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Cheifmcfuz, if your out their I need 4 switches for the layout in the picture. Also do you use any other track besides fast track. I like fast track because it can sit on top of my 4x8 sheet of plywood and not have to be nailed or glued down.


It will walk a bit. As Denny said, don't glue it. Lightly nail or gently screw the track down through the provided holes. Flat head screws will look best in the countersunk holes.


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## DennyM

highvoltage said:


> It will walk a bit. As Denny said, don't glue it. Lightly nail or gently screw the track down through the provided holes. Flat head screws will look best in the countersunk holes.


In my mind nailing could cause damage if you aren't careful.


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## highvoltage

DennyM said:


> In my mind nailing could cause damage if you aren't careful.


True, you have to be gentle with both methods.


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## sjm9911

When I click on the image it says this image can not be loaded, but if i click on that it loads?!?


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## highvoltage

sjm9911 said:


> When I click on the image it says this image can not be loaded, but if i click on that it loads?!?


Yeah, there's something going on with it.

Here it is:


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## sjm9911

Thanks, i got to relearn this new site design.


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## DennyM

sjm9911 said:


> When I click on the image it says this image can not be loaded, but if i click on that it loads?!?


Are you talking about the picture you posted? I see it no problem it loaded automatically.


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## sjm9911

Yes, it might be because I'm on android, sometimes sites have to get the bugs out so all platforms can see the same stuff.


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## DennyM

highvoltage said:


> True, you have to be gentle with both methods.


When I screw track down it's not real tight just snug. If I tried to nail it I would most likely hit my finger.hwell:


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## Frank6791

SJM, thanks. Is tubular track expensive. I like it.


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## Chiefmcfuz

That set up used only fastrack. My permanent layout will use both tubular and fastrack. To do both loops it took about 45 minutes to set up. My son did most of it. He was 10 at the time so he needed a little bit of help.


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## DennyM

highvoltage said:


> Yeah, there's something going on with it.
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> View attachment 328138


Sorry I had a brain fart. I thought sjm posted it.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Take a look at the Thor Trains website suggested in the earlier part of the thread. So much information there and lots of layouts for all sizes. Go slow and try to go to some shows. They are really fun.


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## DennyM

I've seen this website. They have some great stuff.


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## Chiefmcfuz

In case you need it again the link is http://www.thortrains.net/index.htm


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## sjm9911

Tubular is cheaper then fastrack, I like it better, but others like fasttrack because it's easier and has built in balist.


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## Lehigh74

If you want to know more about tubular track, check tinman3rail. A lot of good info there for beginners and very good prices if you don’t mind reconditioned track.

http://www.tinman3rail.com/index.html


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## Frank6791

If I use tubular track how do I put it on my 4x8 plywood platform. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Gunrunner what kind of track do you use.


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## Frank6791

SJM, how could I use tubular track on my 4x8 plywood platform with out wrecking the wood. That is why I use fast track. It lays on top of the wood and you do not wreck the wood. Thanks.


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## sjm9911

With either track system you will need to screw or hot glue it down. That's if you are making a permanent layout. This will prevent the track from shifting and pulling apart over time.


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## sjm9911

As far as the wood goes, most here glue down ground cover, or paint there plywood green and add accessories. If adding things like lights, etc, wires are run under the wood and holes drilled to accommodate the wires.


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## Chiefmcfuz

You put it on the plywood the same way as you would fastrack. The small screws suggested earlier in the thread.


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## Frank6791

SJM, can you tell me about your layout. You use tubular track. What do you use to hold it down. Is it on plywood. Do you have any foam or any thing covering plywood. 
SJM. I did not know the fast track should be nailed or glued down. I thought it just sits on the plywood. Thanks.


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## highvoltage

DennyM said:


> Sorry I had a brain fart. I thought sjm posted it.


He did. However some were having issues with it. When I clicked on the picture I got nothing but a black box, so I reposted the picture so all could see it.


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## Frank6791

SJM, i would like to see pictures of your layout. I really like the look of the tubular track that you use. You do not use fast track do you. How big is your platform. Any fasteners that hold down your track doesn't it wreck your track. Thanks.


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## sjm9911

I ruled a sheet of foam to the plywood, not really necessary. I did it to make grades for my track. It wasn't hard but time consuming.


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## sjm9911

For road bed I used roofing shingles and cut them into strips, so that part was easy.


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## sjm9911

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/#/topics/15832?page=1 here is my layout, it's demolished now as I moved , when I get a few spare miniuts I will re build it!


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## Frank6791

SJM,Question: I am a beginner. I only have fast track. Should I just use that. Should I only use tubular track or use both. SJM,you only use tubular track. 
Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it. Frank.


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## sjm9911

Use what you have! Its cheaper that way both tracks work fine.


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## Frank6791

SJM,questions: in your opinion what is the best way to hold down fast track. How big was your layout. Do you use fast track. My plywood is panted green. Thanks.


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## DennyM

Frank, just to show you what can be done. I use Fastrack which I screwed down. The ballast is aquarium gravel the I bought at PetSmart. I paid $15 for a 20 pound bag which is a lot cheaper than buying ballast from Scenic Express or a company like it.


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## Frank6791

Denny is that fast track in the 4'pictures.


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## Frank6791

Denny, nice pictures. Is that Lionel fast track or flex track. Sorry.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Don't apologize. Ask as many questions as you can.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz. I just never new fastrack get fastened down. Does it have hole in it to screw it down or you glue it. What do you do. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I don't have a layout now. My kids and I do temporary floor layouts. But yes there are screw holes in the fastrack for mounting.


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## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> Denny, nice pictures. Is that Lionel fast track or flex track. Sorry.


It's Fastrack



Chiefmcfuz said:


> Don't apologize. Ask as many questions as you can.


Never be afraid to ask questions we are here for you. People who don't ask questions are the ones that worry me.



Frank6791 said:


> Cheifmcfuz. I just never new fastrack get fastened down. Does it have hole in it to screw it down or you glue it. What do you do. Thanks.


I screw mine down to insure that I don't accidentally move the track out of place and so it doesn't jump around when a train goes over it. There are holes on either end of the track. I'm not a fan of gluing.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz,I really like talking to you. Question: as a beginner and I do not know maybe you can answer this if I fasten my fast track to my 4x8 plywood sheet doesn't it wreck the plywood. 
Cheifmcfuz I only have one train right now and it is a starter set. It is the polar express lioncheif starter set. That is why I wanted to do a layout like yours run 2 lioncheif sets on one transformer and have both trains on separate track.


----------



## Frank6791

Denny, thank you. You and all the guys on this forum are very helpful. Denny how big is your layout and how many tracks and trains do you run on the fast track. Also what is ballast. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Denny, or anyone can answer this. This is a beginner fear I have. If you fasten down then track than I will wrench my plywood platform


----------



## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> Denny, thank you. You and all the guys on this forum are very helpful. Denny how big is your layout and how many tracks and trains do you run on the fast track. Also what is ballast. Thanks.


The main table is 6X8.The extension were the train yard is, is a total 11ft long and 4ft wide, but the end is a 4X5 'T' so I could do a horseshoe curve with 048 curves which it the next size up from 036. I can run two trains with my Cab1-L/TMCC, but have run three. It's kind of tricky to keep them from colliding so mostly I just run one. 

Ballast are the rocks they put around track to keep it on place. For us it's more for realism.


----------



## sjm9911

I don't know what wreck the plywood means? you have to fasten in some way or you will derail the train at a certain point. You can easily reuse the wood base if you change your layout. Just not to make furniture! The holes are small. My layout was 2 sheets of plywood, check out the link above.


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## Frank6791

SJM, so the hole that you are making to fasten the track are very small. They are small enough where you would not worry about the hole you are putting in the plywood. Does anyone use fast track with out fastening it down. Thanks.


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> SJM, so the hole that you are making to fasten the track are very small. They are small enough where you would not worry about the hole you are putting in the plywood. Does anyone use fast track with out fastening it down. Thanks.


Like I said earlier, you could leave it unfastened, but it will eventually move around on the table. It might even come undone at various sections causing power outages.

Once you have a design you like, fastening it down will make it so it won't move or come apart. As mentioned you will end up with small holes every so often, but unless you plan on re-using the plywood for furniture I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Chiefmcfuz

If you constantly screw and unscrew the track it will turn the plywood into Swiss cheese persay. I would just go slow and plan for the space you have and just keep it temporary for now until you have the track layout you want and then mount the track to the board.


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## Frank6791

Question: what happens if you use tubular tack which has no roadbed on it and you do not put one on. Do you have do put a roadbed on tubular track. Thanks.


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Question: what happens if you use tubular tack which has no roadbed on it and you do not put one on. Do you have do put a roadbed on tubular track. Thanks.


You don't have to. Some do in order to make their layout look more realistic. Roadbed in real life holds everything together. In model railroading it's only for aesthetics.


----------



## Guest

Frank, my layout uses FasTrack, as did my previous one. The old layout was 6x9 with a 30"x30" piece in one corner. I had that layout for 2 years. I didn't screw the track down and it never moved or came apart. You can screw the track down if you want to but you don't have to. I dismantled the layout when we moved to Florida last year and I'm building a new layout. These are a few pictures from my old layout.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I really like your layout. Thanks for the pictures. It's a real treat. I really like fast track also. I would love to put some switches in my layout. I totally agree with you. I am not going to fasten my track down. Thanks a lot.


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## sjm9911

Now your getting It! No wrong or right way to do stuff, it's all about what you want to do and get out of It!


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## Frank6791

Joe,I am just curious. What do you run on your layout. Conventional trains or trains with controllers. Thank.


----------



## Shawn91481

YouTube. It doesn't necessarily matter what scale, a lot of the techniques are the same. With O gauge a 4×8 Isn't a lot of real estate. Don't forget the vertical, especially if you want to run another train. How about a figure 8? That's not a simple oval.


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## Frank6791

Shawn, what do you mean by vertical. Yes I can do a figure 8. I know 4x8 is not a lot of room.


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## Frank6791

I have a 4x8 sheet of plywood on sawhorses for my layout. Which does not give you much room. How could I make my layout bigger. Meaning the wood platform. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Frank.


----------



## Frank6791

Joe, since I like fast track a lot I want to find out what kind of trains you run. Also i want to find out how to make my plywood platform bigger. 4x8 is too small. I also want to add switches. Thanks.


----------



## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe,I am just curious. What do you run on your layout. Conventional trains or trains with controllers. Thank.


I have 3 MTH Railking locos with Proto Sound 3 and a DCS system. I also have 3 LionChief Plus locos and 1 conventional. On my layout I run the PS3 and LC+ locos. I run the conventional loco at train shows. I prefer the command locos for a few reasons. First, they all have speed control and will run at constant slow speeds regardless of track and voltage loss. On a small layout it's nice to run trains slower. It reduces noise and makes the layout seem larger since it takes longer for a train to complete a loop.

Second, I like to be able to walk around the layout with controller in hand and watch the trains from different vantage points and still control the trains.

Third, on my new layout which is larger I can run 2 or 3 trains on the mainline. That would be very difficult to do with conventional control. With the remote I am controlling the train and not the track. 

Some guys prefer conventional control. PS3 and LC+ can be run conventionally with constant speed control, better smoke and sound but without individual control and certain sound features like statin announcements and cab chatter.


----------



## Guest

Frank, this is the trackplan for my old layout.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I only have one train it's a starter set it's the polar express lioncheif set. I am sorry I bought a lioncheif set. I should of bought a lioncheif plus set it would of been better. 
Joe how do I make my platform bigger. Thanks.


----------



## Frank6791

Joe, thanks a lot I really appreciate it. I do not know If it will fit on my 4x8 platform that is why I am asking how do I make the wood platform bigger. Joe we are fast track guys we have to stick together.


----------



## Chiefmcfuz

Lionchief plus locos are only available separately not in sets. The starter sets are great because you get a power supply, track, train and accessories all in one box. Expansion is up to you. This has been common for many decades. 

To make your layout plans larger just add another piece of plywood and legs. 

The easiest thing to do is set up a layout on the floor and measure it. Take pictures and print them and write the measurements on the picture so that you know exactly everything you need to know when building your layout bench. I would buy some more track and some switches. Look at the outer passing loop expansion from lionel too. The key is to go slow.


----------



## Guest

Frank, this is a link to a video on building benchwork:






It shows the basics of building benchwork and You Tube will suggest similar videos showing construction. There are also books that explain benchwork but the videos should provide enough information to get you going.

Don't build too big a layout right now. If you really like this hobby you will build many layouts over a lifetime and learn some things from each one. Most of what you use to build your first layout can be saved and used on your next layout.

As you get different and more advanced locomotives you can save the Polar Express set to run under the Christmas tree. If you decide that you really don't like it you can sell it and get some of your money back. Your knowledge and interests will change and grow as you gain experience.


----------



## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, I only have one train it's a starter set it's the polar express lioncheif set. I am sorry I bought a lioncheif set. I should of bought a lioncheif plus set it would of been better.
> Joe how do I make my platform bigger. Thanks.


You live and learn. I have gotten rid of engines I started with and bought other engines I like. It's the nature of the hobby.



Frank6791 said:


> Joe, thanks a lot I really appreciate it. I do not know If it will fit on my 4x8 platform that is why I am asking how do I make the wood platform bigger. Joe we are fast track guys we have to stick together.


My layout started as a 4X8.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, what is a outer passing loop expansion. Is that a kit you can buy from Lionel.


----------



## Chiefmcfuz

Lionel makes expansion packs. Give it a search on one of the online shops like trainworld.com.


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks for the picture of your layout I just have to get some switches to duplicat that layout. Is their any other special track besides straight, curved and switches. Thank.


----------



## Frank6791

Joe, what part of Florida do you live in. My Friend Ed lives in Leesburg and my Friend Charlie lives in Gainesville.


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## Guest

I live in Vero Beach. It's on the east coast approximately midway between Jacksonville and Miami.

Lionel makes some fitter pieces, 5", 4 1/2" 1 3/4" and 1 3/8" straight sections. I used all of them and it's a good idea to get a few of each if you decide to use FasTrack. The 1 3/8" sections can be used to insulate tracks if you decide to run conventionally. With command control, whether DCS, Legacy/TMCC or LionChief and LC+ you don't need to electrically isolate different tracks. Still, those little sections come in handy when trying to get the track to fit. If you have a train shop reasonably close you can buy the short fitters as needed.

As you play with the track you will get familiar with how it goes together and comfortable making changes on the fly as needed or desired.


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## Frank6791

Joe,I will get some of those fitter pieces anything else I should get. I am going to try to duplicate your layout you sent me a picture of. Thanks for the help I really appreciate it.


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## Frank6791

Joe, question: if I want to get into command locos like you what do I need to buy. Can you let me know. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Page 45 of the July Classic Toy Trains magazine has this interesting layout.


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## Frank6791

Joe, you are a nice guy. Any help you can give me on post 201 and 202 would be much appreciated. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, do you have a subscription to this magazine. How do you like this magazine.


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## Chiefmcfuz

It's great. I am a subscriber for a few years now.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Another thing the 1 3/8" Fastrack pieces are useful for is sidings. I have a few that I put switches in to control siding power. The little yellow dot on the left is the power indicator, just an LED with a 1K resistor to track power.


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## Guest

Frank, on that layout I used O48 curves on the outside loop. You could use O36 on both loops but would have to adjust the plan slightly. The O36 switch tracks come with a 1/4 O36 curve section to make a full O36 curve.

The easiest way to get into command control is to use LionChief Plus locomotives. Each loco comes with it's own controller just like LionChief. There is nothing else to buy. The LC+ steam locomotives are very well made and very reliable. Some guys have had trouble with the 2 motor diesels and I would stay away from them. The sound system in LC+ is good but not great, certainly not in the same class as PS3 or Legacy. LC+ steam locos list for about $430 and can be had at discount sights like MB Klein, Trainworld, etc. for around $390.

The next step up would be either Legacy (Lionel) or DCS (MTH). Legacy locos are high quality but expensive. As far as I know (I don't have Legacy) Lionel doesn't make a less expensive Legacy line. Legacy diesels are about $500 and up and Legacy steam engines are $900 and up.

I have a DCS system and Railking locomotives. RK diesels are about $290 and steam locos are about $390, in the same price range as LC+. PS3 sound is excellent and RK locomotives, freight and passenger cars will run on O31 curves. 

A Legacy or DCS system will cost you about $300. LC+ needs no additional equipment or cost. All 3 control systems can be used on the same layout at the same time. If you have a good train store nearby you should go and see a demonstration of each. You can see the different lines of engines and get a better idea of what you like and can afford. The trip to the store is worth it even if you decide to buy online. Seeing the trains in person is way better than pictures on the computer. Only you can decide which is best for you, and you really can't make a mistake. If you buy a DCS system you can run MTH and LC+ locos, and you can add Legacy at any time.

You can go to a site like train world.com and look at different locomotives. Make sure you look to see what the minimum curve is for each locomotive so you know if it will run on your layout.

I hope this answers your questions. If not, ask away and we will try to help.


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## Frank6791

John, what are sidings and how are they used on a layout. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Joe, if I buy a dcs system for 300 what comes with it. Do you get any trains or you have to buy them seperate. Thanks.


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## Guest

That is just for the DCS. It comes with a Track Interface Unit (TIU) and a handheld controller. It needs a transformer to power the TIU and the track. The handheld remote uses 4 AAA batteries. 

You could start by buying a transformer and a Railking engine and run the engine conventionally until you get a DCS system. O gauge is expensive but you don't need to buy everything at once.

MTH makes some Railking sets that come with a remote commander which will run the train and hold you until you add a real DCS system.

I just looked online and it seems all the sets are sold out with new ones due in October.


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## Frank6791

Joe, what ever is the best way to go let me know. I do not have anything except one lioncheif set. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Joe, the railking sets you are talking about that do not come into October how much do they cost. Also what makes lioncheif plus better than the lioncheif I have.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank6791 said:


> Also what makes lioncheif plus better than the lioncheif I have.


Cruise control, fan driven smoke, electrocoupler, conventional or command operation, better shell detailing, etc. They're pretty much on a different planet.


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## Frank6791

John, how do you buy lioncheif plus. Is it sold in a set or is it sold another way. If I am looking to buy lioncheif plus how do I buy it.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, what ever is the best way to go let me know. I do not have anything except one lioncheif set. Thanks.


That is impossible for me, or anyone other than you, to say. I really like DCS and think it's worth the money but some like Legacy better, and then there are guys like Lee Willis who only runs LionChief Plus or conventional. DCS and LC+ are best for me but maybe not for you. My best advice is to go to a train store or a train show where you can see these things for yourself. Just because I like DCS and Railking best doesn't mean that you will.



Frank6791 said:


> John, how do you buy lioncheif plus. Is it sold in a set or is it sold another way. If I am looking to buy lioncheif plus how do I buy it.


LC+ doesn't come in sets. The locomotives are sold separately. You can see LC+ at many seller websites like trainworld.com . LC+ steam locos sell for about $390 and LC+ diesels sell for about $290.


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, what ever is the best way to go let me know...


One thing you will find around here is plenty of advice, but nobody will ever tell you exactly what to do. They will give suggestions and then say "your choice." Simply because they don't want someone coming back and saying "you told me to do this and I don't like it."

That's why we're saying go to train meets, or hobby shops. Look around and see what you like. Read as much as you can on different ways to do things, then decide what might be best for you.

There is no right or wrong in this hobby, just personal preferences.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I am referring to post 211. You looked online at railking sets and said they were sold out and new ones were due in October. Where was that where you were looking. I wanted to find out the price of the sets. I might buy one when they come in in October. I just wanted more info on the set. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, I looked at a number of sites. Trainworld.com showed the sets on backorder and due in October. The only bad thing about a Railking set is that it comes with an oval of RealTrax which won't mate with FasTrack. This really isn't all that bad but it would be nice if the track was compatible with the FasTrack you already have. My upper level uses RealTrax. Hopefully this link will take you to the train set page at Trainworld:

https://www.trainworld.com/manufacturers/model-train-starter-sets/o-gauge-electric-starter-sets/


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## Guest

Frank, I found this set on eBay. Legacy Station is a legit business and the price seems reasonable and has free shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTH-Pennsyl...-Freight-Train-Set-30-4226-1-NIB/391760908246


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## Frank6791

Ok. I saw those train sets. They have ps 3.0. What is that. Joe do you have one of these sets. If so do you like it. Thanks.


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## Guest

PS 3.0 is the current sound and command system from MTH. DCS will control any loco with PS 2 or PS 3. All 3 of my Railking locos are PS 3. They run and sound great.

I don't have any of the sets but the locos and cars are regular Railking and good quality. The contemporary sets (CSX, Norfolk Southern, etc.) have Imperial locomotives. They are excellent locos with lots of great features. If I were just starting in the hobby I would buy a CSX set to get going. I love the New York Central and trains from the 1950s but I also like contemporary railroading a lot.


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## Frank6791

The contemporary railking set you just mentioned or any railking set what kind of controller does it come with. 
Also if I wanted the exact mth dcs system you have what would I buy and what am I looking to spend 300-400. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, questions: what would be a good starter set. Do you use remot controls or transformers. I want to get into command control but it is expensive. Also toy train magazine what kind of trains are in the magazine. I will look into a subscription.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz,you are a great guy. I like your help. Answer this how can I get into command control/remote control. I know it is a lot of money. What is needed. Any help you can give me will be great. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I have no idea about command control. I have conventional and Lionchief locomotives.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank6791 said:


> Cheifmcfuz, questions: what would be a good starter set. Do you use remot controls or transformers. I want to get into command control but it is expensive. Also toy train magazine what kind of trains are in the magazine. I will look into a subscription.


I have several of conventional sets and Lionchief sets. I use a transformers but again I only do temporary setups since my train room is still under construction as you can see in the picture. I am a Pennsylvania RR fan so I get PRR stuff.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> The contemporary railking set you just mentioned or any railking set what kind of controller does it come with.
> Also if I wanted the exact mth dcs system you have what would I buy and what am I looking to spend 300-400. Thanks.


The MTH sets currently available come with the DCS Commander. It is a limited wireless control that is good for the set. It works by infrared like a TV remote. It is enough to get started so you can run the train. The new sets coming out in October will require you to supply a smartphone or tablet to run the trains. Most people now have a smartphone and the control is better than the older infrared. If you buy a set you don't need anything more right now but will as the layout grows.

If you go beyond running one or two sets on a basic layout then you will need a good transformer. The transformer supplied with these sets are just powerful enough to run the set and little else. If you want lighted buildings, operating accessories and other things you will need a more powerful transformer like a refurbished ZW or a new transformer.

If you want a full DCS system it will cost about $300-325 depending on where you buy it. The list price is around $350 but you can usually find an online discount retailer.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, does Pennsylvania rail road have a starter set. How did you get into Pennsylvania railroad stuff. Cheifmcfuz what is your real name. I have a porch it comes off my kitchen it is 28 long x 10 feet out. I am using that for my train room. Where do you live in pa. I live in pa


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## gunrunnerjohn

FWIW, I think before you start purchasing vast quantities of stuff you should visit a number of shops, train shows, and public displays of model trains. Get to know something about the landscape before jumping in with both feet. You won't learn everything all at once, give it a little time to sink in.



> Cheifmcfuz what is your real name. I have a porch it comes off my kitchen it is 28 long x 10 feet out. I am using that for my train room. Where do you live in pa. I live in pa


If his profile is to be believed, he actually lives in *Westchester NY*, look to the left under his name on every post.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I want the full dcs system like you have. But since I am a beginner would it be better to get the starter set or go for the full dcs system. 
Question: with the starter set what smart phone can you use. I have a iPhone. If I buy the starter set and then later get the dcs system then I can not use controller from starter set. Also for 300-325 to buy dcs system I hope you get the whole soup to nuts. Now that cost is not for a train. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Joe, what is siding and how do you use it on your layout. Thanks.


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## Guest

This link will take you to the Railking catalogs page at MTH's website. Spend some time looking at the 2017 RTR catalogue and the 2017 catalogues, vol 1&2. Reading these catalogues will answer most of your questions.

http://mthtrains.com/catalogs-new/4043

John, I and others have advised that you go to some train stores and shows. Seeing the trains and accessories in person is worth more than a truckload of advice. None of us can tell you what you should do. To avoid making big mistakes start small and take your time. This is a learn as you go hobby. Spend some time watching videos on You Tube. Time invested now will help you to make fewer mistakes down the road.

If I were starting from scratch I think I would start with a Railking freight set, add a switch or two, extra track, a few extra freight cars and an industrial building or 2 so I could switch cars. I know from experience that I like switching industries and this would keep me busy for a while and give me time to decide how to expand and what to buy next.


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## Frank6791

I just looked at the railking rtr sets. They look very nice. I am probably going to buy one. What do you do with the controller that comes with these sets when you get a dcs system. I have a lot of fast track so I do not have to use the real track that comes with it. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

John, what time is the train show. Is it a train show tomorrow or a club event. How much to get In. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> I just looked at the railking rtr sets. They look very nice. I am probably going to buy one. What do you do with the controller that comes with these sets when you get a dcs system. I have a lot of fast track so I do not have to use the real track that comes with it. Thanks.


The new sets that will be out around October use your smartphone. This is brand new and I don't know if it will be usable with a DCS system. Sets produced in the last few years had the DCS Commander (I think that's what it's called). This would be useless once you bought a DCS system but you could use in if you put trains under the Christmas Tree. 

You could save the RealTrax to use under the Christmas tree. The Polar Express set will run on it.


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## Frank6791

I eventually want to go to the dcs system. The only thing keeping me from buying it right now is the money. It cost 300-350 for a complete dcs system now how much more do I have to factor in price wise for a transformer and the loco. Because when you buy a complete dcs system I do not think you get a transformer and a loco. 
On the other hand i do not want to waste my money if I buy the railking set with smart phone controller if it will not work with dcs system because I know I will get one down the road. 
I should call some one and ask if railking set controlled buy smart phone will work with dcs system. I just do not know who to call. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, the locomotive and cars will work with DCS. DCS will control any loco with PS2 or PS3. You could always use the 50 watt transformer to light some buildings. The only things you won't use are the track and possibly the Wifi unit. The train, which is the most expensive parts in the set, will work with DCS.


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## Guest

One more thought. If you go to trainworld.com you can look up a similar engine and similar Railking cars and price them out. For the contemporary set the diesel locomotive should sell for about $290 and the freight cars for $40-50 each. I haven't checked it out but I'm pretty sure if you priced them out individually the engine and cars would cost more than the set if purchased individually.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I rather just wait until I am able to get the dcs sytmem you have. Where did you buy yours. Also after I buy the dcs system for 300-325. What is left to buy. I will probably buy my system where you bought yours. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, I bought mine at Trainland in Lynbrook, NY. Trainland and Trainworld are the same company. Trainland is on Long Island and Trainworld is in Brooklyn. Their website is: trainworld.com. I used to live in NY and made a pilgrimage to Trainland a couple of times a year.

I also shop at MB Klein ( modeltrainstuff.com ). There are other good online retailers. If you live anywhere near Henning's Trains Gun Runner John works there. 

My advice is to check out a few online retailers like Charles Ro, Trainworld and MB Klein, and maybe some others. I have dealt with the three above and would recommend them. Other online retailers may be just as good but I haven't bought anything from them so I can't make a recommendation.


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## RonthePirate

Frank, a good way to see anything that is or was available in O scale is to go on Ebay.
Maybe not to purchase just yet, but it's so vast a display.
It could give you ideas on what kind of setup you want.
Type of track, prewar, postwar, what period in time, geez, name it, it's there.


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## Frank6791

Ok, joe. Thanks. I will look on train world. Under Dcs system. Sorry bear with me. What I do not under stand is when I buy the dcs system you have for 300-325 are they giving me a transformer and a train or I have to pay more money above 300 to get the transformer and train. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Ron. How are you. What do you run. Conventional or command control trains. Fast track or what type of track do you use. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Cheifmcfuz, I wanted to ask you a question. You only do lioncheif and conventional trains. How come you never wanted to do lioncheif plus and control command either legacy or dcs from mth. 
How did you get into the Pennsylvania railroad trains. 
Cheifmcfuz, I do not really have any trains. Can you recommend a good starter train for me. What is your name. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

My name is Brendan. I am a Pennsylvania RR fan because of all the great trips to the Strasburg Railroad when I was a kid. I also have lionchief plus locos. I don't have any legacy locos mostly because of financial reasons. I am happy with what I have. A good starter set is an individual thing. My advice is to do some searching and pick the ones you like. Start slow. The Polar Express is a great set. I have one myself and I put it up at my mom's house during the Christmas season around the tree.


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## Guest

Frank, I just looked on trainworld.com and a DCS system is $324.99. That is the Track Interface Unit (TIU) and the handheld remote. You would need to add a transformer, locomotive (a Railking diesel $300) and some freight cars (most RK freight cars are $43 each). You're looking at about $800 without a transformer. You could buy 2 starter sets and have money left over. Take your time and really think this through. It's a big investment.


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## Frank6791

Brendon, if you are talking about the railroad in Lancaster I go their all the time. That is the same reason I do not have legacy or dcs because of finacial reasons. My next train I get, I want to get a lioncheif plus train. The only thing I do not like is that lioncheif plus does not come in a set. How do you get a full train if I want to buy lioncheif plus.


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## Lehigh74

Frank6791 said:


> How do you get a full train if I want to buy lioncheif plus.


Look here.

https://www.menards.com/main/home-decor/menards-collectibles/train-stuff-from-menards/c-14331.htm


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## Chiefmcfuz

Go to some shows. You can get rolling stock and track used pretty cheap. They also sell old used sets too. Some will even entertain a good offer below the asking price. I have purchased one Lionchief Plus loco at a show and it runs great.


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## Frank6791

I do not see any lioncheif plus on that site only lioncheif.


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## Chiefmcfuz

www.trainworld.com 

Try there


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## Frank6791

Brendon, the lioncheif plus loco that you purchase at a show how did you get cars and a caboose for that loco. From what I know with lion cheif plus you only get loco.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Only the locomotive. I bought other cars but they were from other people.


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## Frank6791

Brendon, so for lioncheif plus you have to buy everything individual. The loco, the cars and the caboose. The loco comes with the remote.


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## Frank6791

Brendon and SJM, I do not know if you saw those ready to run sets by railking that are controlled buy your smartphone. I really like them. I like the idea of running the train with your phone.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I have seen them. They are nice. 


Yes the LC plus locos are sold individually from any rolling stock.


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## Frank6791

I might buy one of the ready to run sets where you use your smart phone to operate the train.


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## Frank6791

lioncheif comes in ready to run sets. I just do not understand why lioncheif plus does not come in ready to run sets.


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## Chiefmcfuz

LC plus is considered an upgrade to the starter sets. Just like legacy locos do not come in starter sets.


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## Frank6791

Brendon. So lioncheif plus is considered an upgrade to lioncheif. So with lioncheif plus they make you buy everything seperate.


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## Frank6791

Brendon, what is siding and how is it used in a layout. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

They don't make you buy anything. This hobby is all about what you want to do with your collection and how you go about it yourself. I am in my 40s and up until a few years ago I only had conventional locomotives.


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## Frank6791

Just asking. Lioncheif plus. How much would it cost to buy a full train loco, cars and caboose because you buy everything seperate. You have one don't you or you just have a loco. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Brendon, my father in law still has his Lionel trains from when he was a kid. They are in perfect shape. He was born in the 1930's. He said if I want the trains. I can have them. He is not using them.


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## Guest

Frank, that sounds like an offer you can't refuse.


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## Frank6791

Joe, this is the track, the transformers and everything that goes along with it. He said a couple of months ago anytime I want the trains just come over and get them. It no problem. I just never did. He lives a couple of blocks from me. 
I never saw his Lionel trains from when he was a kid. I have no idea what Lionel trains were like in the 1930's-1940's when he was a kid.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> I never saw his Lionel trains from when he was a kid. I have no idea what Lionel trains were like in the 1930's-1940's when he was a kid.


They are very different then the trains made today. Some guys love trains from that period and that's all they collect and operate. They are most likely tinplate trains, made from sheet metal. You might find that you are one of the guys that love tinplate.

If they were offered to me I wouldn't think twice. I'd get there before he had a chance to change his mind. If nothing else I would run them under the Christmas tree each year.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank6791 said:


> Just asking. Lioncheif plus. How much would it cost to buy a full train loco, cars and caboose because you buy everything seperate. You have one don't you or you just have a loco. Thanks.


I really don't know exactly. I buy things here and there at shows and stores. But if I were to guess I would add that cost of the locomotive plus about 15 to 25 per used car I bought and add the cost of the track. Best way to go about this is to go to the an online site and start putting things into the shopping cart and see what the cost is when you are satisfied with the set you put together. Also check out www.hobbyspeed.com


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## Chiefmcfuz

Here is another great site. www.charlesro.com

You can also visit the Strasburg Train Shop if you are very close to Lancaster PA.


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## Frank6791

Brendon. I went to the Strasburg train store many times befor.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Great place. They can give you face to face advice too!


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## Frank6791

Brendon, how are you this is Frank. If I get a subscription to classic toy train magazine what is that magazine about all trains or just o guage. You said you like the magazine. I am going to look into it thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, Classic Toy Trains is primarily O and S gauge with usually more O than S. O Gauge Railroading is another magazine that covers O exclusively. The magazines are different and some subscribe to both. My advice would be for you to look at both at your local train store, look through each and maybe buy a copy of one or both and decide if either is right for you.


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## Frank6791

Thanks. Joe, two thing. Did we ever cove o gauge and o scale. I always get the 2 confused. Also what is siding and how would I use it in my layout. Thanks.


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## Guest

We did, but to refresh your mind, O gauge usually refers to 3 rail and O scale usually refers to 2 rail. When it was first published, O Gauge Railroading was originally O Scale Railroading but the name was changed to include 3 rail which is far more popular than 2 rail.


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## Frank6791

Joe,now can you be so kind and tell me what siding is and how to use it on my layout. Thanks.


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## Lehigh74

A siding is a section of track connected to the main line by one or more switches. A passing siding has a switch at each end so you can park one train on it while another train passes. A stub end or industrial siding has a switch at one end.


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## Frank6791

Lehigh, thanks. I was asking because I want to use siding in my layout and wanted to know how to use them.


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## teledoc

Frank, Your question of 0 scale & 0 gauge can mean two differing opinions. One opinion, is what Country Joe shows as 2 rail versus 3 rail modelers. The other opinion goes back to my reply in post #108, which explains gauge as the distance from one outside rail in respect to the other outside rail. 0 gauge rails are 1 1/4" apart, H.O. is 5/8" apart. etc. The other reference to Scale, in this same context, is how many of the Models of an item would it take, to compare to the original life size item. An example, is a caboose in modeling, would take typically 48 model cabooses, placed end to end, to equal the length of the real caboose. That results in the model being 1/48 Scale. There are arguments of scale going from 1/45, to 1/48, up to 1/50, that get referenced, but no matter what number of those choices, that is how items are scaled down in size. So SCALE refers to SIZE, in this context.


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## Frank6791

Teledoc, do you run conventional trains or do you us remote controls. Do you use fast track or a different kind of track on your layout. Thanks.


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## teledoc

Frank, I do not have a layout, and am more into repairing and restoring Prewar & Postwar trains. I also do a lot of researching of both eras. I'm at an age that I don't want to learn all the newer stuff, with running trains remotely, and all the new features. I only got back into the trains (Lionel), since 2007-08. I'll be 70 this Oct., so starting a layout now, is out of the question.


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## Frank6791

Teledoc,I can totally respect that. If I was that age I would not want to get into remote trains either. I have a question: if you do not mind. My father in law still has his Lionel trains from when he was a kid. They are in perfect shape. He has the track and transformers and everything. He does not use them. He said I can have them. He lives a couple of blocks away from me I just have to go and get them. He was born in the 1930's. Teledoc these trains are from the 1930's-1940's. I never saw them or any trains from these years. Thanks


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## Frank6791

Teledoc,sorry I forgot to ask my question. What kind of Lionel trains are from these years. Thanks.


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## teledoc

With your father in law being born in the 1930's, he would have 0 gauge trains, that would run on today's tracks just fine. They would be Prewar items, and could include Steam engines, or what were called Electrics. The Electrics would look similar to a trolley that has a Pantograph or Pantographs on the roof, that represented the power source for those style trains. There were different body style for the Electrics, that look unlike each other. 

Do a Google search of 'Lionel 248' and then a search of 'Lionel 252' to see what I am talking about, with body styles. You can also search 'Lionel Prewar trains', and do a view of what pops up. 

The earlier posting about GAUGE, that I posted was only showing 0 & H.O. Gauge dimensions. There are other gauges, but the U.S. version, from Prewar also included Standard Gauge. Standard Gauge have rails at 2 1/8" from outside rail to outside rail spacing, which covers from approx. 1925 until 1935, and basically ended by Lionel at that time. Your father in law probably doesn't have Standard Gauge, unless he bought it when he was younger, and still dabbled with trains for quite a while. Get a list of his trains, and we can get you some answers.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank6791 said:


> Teledoc,I can totally respect that. If I was that age I would not want to get into remote trains either.


HEY! I'm that old and I am firmly in the command control camp!


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## sjm9911

That's because you have a background already in small circuits. You like this stuff but as we said before it's what you like.


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## teledoc

John, You have a few years on me, but in my case, I couldn't see spending the money on the newer stuff, and starting all over again, from scratch. I basically got back to the trains, when my granddaughter got old enough to enjoy the 'Old' Postwar stuff, around the Xmas tree. The problem I had, was the trains , didn't see the light of day since 1969. I took a few days to get everything in running order again. I basically knew NOTHING, about repairing trains at the time, so it was & has been a long learning process.

With a lot of reading, and buying a few books, and MOST OF ALL, this forum, I think I can hold my own with Prewar & Postwar Lionel trains. Following the like of T-man, TJcruiser, Big Ed, and a few others, I got into restoring some real Derelicts, that should have been tossed. It's been fun.


----------



## highvoltage

teledoc said:


> John, You have a few years on me, but in my case, I couldn't see spending the money on the newer stuff, and starting all over again, from scratch. I basically got back to the trains, when my granddaughter got old enough to enjoy the 'Old' Postwar stuff, around the Xmas tree. The problem I had, was the trains , didn't see the light of day since 1969. I took a few days to get everything in running order again. I basically knew NOTHING, about repairing trains at the time, so it was & has been a long learning process.
> 
> With a lot of reading, and buying a few books, and MOST OF ALL, this forum, I think I can hold my own with Prewar & Postwar Lionel trains. Following the like of T-man, TJcruiser, Big Ed, and a few others, I got into restoring some real Derelicts, that should have been tossed. It's been fun.


But you found a passion, which is good. I have my old train set from when I was young, but it's in very good condition so not much was needed except some cleaning. Since then I've added new items so my repair is virtually non-existent.

My next goal is to add on to my existing layout.


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## Guest

teledoc said:


> I'll be 70 this Oct., so starting a layout now, is out of the question.


I'll be 68 in January and just started a new layout after moving to Florida.  I think it's more about desire than age. I'm not criticizing, if researching and repairing rather than building a layout is how you enjoy the hobby it's great.


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## teledoc

Joe, I have thought about trying to rebuild a layout, that was what I had when I was young. That layout was 8 x 16 feet, with two levels. I had the typical operating cars, (cattle car/milk car, etc.). The old locos were a 2020/2020W, 2056/2046W, with loads of box cars, gondolas, as freight, and the Madison passenger set. I hit the teenage years, and it all got torn down, due to lack of interest, and got a Pool Table, as a replacement.....the trains got passed on to two cousins, that I presumed were gone Forever. The youngest cousin kept it all, and I wound up getting it back after 45 years. 

It all needed serious work, to get it back to running condition. I knew NOTHING about repairing, and the LHS, that were around, didn't do repairs. That forced me into learning what to do, to fix my own stuff. I bought books, and subscribed to CTT, to learn what I had, and found this forum, by DUMB luck. This forum has been fabulous with the wealth of knowledge, that is available. I have more fun, in fixing OLD derelict cast offs, that most people would toss out. It isn't hard, with the Prewar/Postwar trains.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Look at how much progress you've made, the layout is just another larger "repair" job.  You don't have to go for the deluxe version with intricate landscaping, go for more of a "toy" train look and just have fun with it.


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## teledoc

John, I'm having too much fun, with restoring junk Prewar stuff, that are really easy to fix. Then the research part comes from the way my mind works. I think of things, that others would never give any thought to. There are times, when I will read an article in CTT (only subscription I get), that poses questions, that I need answers. Then my mind runs wild..!!!! There are Forum questions that will do the same thing, that I will see if I can find logical answers to. It helps with the learning process. It's all fun.
:laugh::laugh:


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## Guest

teledoc, as I said above, I'm not criticizing, just noting that if you wanted a layout you could build one. There isn't only one way to enjoy this hobby. We each enjoy it in our own way. If researching and repairing is your way, I think it's great.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank6791 said:


> Brendon, how are you this is Frank. If I get a subscription to classic toy train magazine what is that magazine about all trains or just o guage. You said you like the magazine. I am going to look into it thanks.


I love the magazine. I like the articles and the layouts and the classified section.


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## Frank6791

Brendon,I am going to get a copy of the the magazine and try it out and see if I like it. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

SJM, this is Frank. I forgot. Please refresh my memory do you run conventional trains or remote control.


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## Frank6791

John, this is Frank. A quick question. Where is Hennings the train store where you work. Thanks.


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## Lehigh74

There are a couple of train stores not too far from Oaks.

BUSSINGER TRAINS – mostly MTH
23 West Butler Pike
Ambler, Pennsylvania 19002
215.628.2366

HENNING SCALE MODELS – mostly Lionel
128 South Line Street
Lansdale, PA 19446
Phone: 215.362.2442	

NICHOLAS SMITH
2343 W. CHESTER PIKE
BROOMALL, PA 19008
Phone: 610-353-8585


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## Frank6791

Lehigh, this is Frank. I have been to Nicholas smith many times before. I live about 10 min from the place.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I see I'm too late to answer the question.


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## sjm9911

Frank, I run mostly conventional trains. I do have a legacy set up but never had the time to set It up.


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## Frank6791

SJM, what trains do you like better Lionel or MTH.


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## gunrunnerjohn

If I had to pick one manufacturer of model trains, it would come down to Lionel or MTH. Between those two, I'd lean to Lionel as they have better sound and smoke features, and I also like Legacy better than DCS.

The good thing is, I don't have to pick one maker, so I have stuff from a host of manufacturers.


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## Frank6791

John, I know you pay for what you get and I would love to get legacy but it is expensive


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## gunrunnerjohn

If you look at the Show us what you added to your roster lately?, you'll see that by careful shopping I've added some pretty nice Legacy steamers for not much more than LC+ prices lately.  At various times, I've managed to grab Legacy diesels for $200-250, so they do exist. I buy a vast majority of my stuff used as the new prices are a bit prohibitive. I grabbed the MTH 20-5679-1 PRR BB1 Electric set with PS/3 for $340 brand new when JR Junction had a special. TrainWorld has them on "special" for $599! Just have to watch for deals to come along.


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## Frank6791

John, if I or anybody want to get lagacy and do not have it can you give me a run down of what is need to buy a the cost. Also legacy looks like more things are compatible with it than MTH DCS.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Well, Legacy will also run all the older TMCC stuff, as well as a host of command controlled accessories, and of course the command controlled switches from several manufacturers. DCS is pretty much limited to DCS locomotives and the AIU for wired control of accessories and switches. With DCS, you can add a Legacy or TMCC command base and run TMCC locomotives with the DCS remote. However, you can't run stuff like TMCC accessories or command switches using the DCS remote.

The Legacy system clocks in around $300-350 if you shop around, and the full DCS system is about the same.


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## Frank6791

John, you say legacy is 300-350. What would I get and what else would I have to buy. John legacy and tmcc are the same or different.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Legacy is the newest Lionel control system, and it's compatible with TMCC or Legacy equipment.

Lionel O 6-14295 #990 Legacy Command Set

Frank, you really need to do some independent research and then come back with questions. You're trying to have us spoon feed you every detail here, and it's going to be very difficult to remember it all.


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## Frank6791

After you buy this then you probably need a transformer and then some trains. I can't see anything else you would need. 
Thanks a lot John I appreciate it.


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## Chiefmcfuz

A lot of the questions you ask would be best answered at a train shop so that you can ask them about stuff that you are actually looking at in real time and you can see how it works first hand. Also a lot of this is personal preference and you need to make up your mind which direction you want to go. Everyone is different in their preferences.


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## Frank6791

Legacy/DCS question: if a person can only buy one system due to money or they have a small layout which system would be the one to buy. I can only buy one system due to money and my layout is not that big so which would be the one to buy. Every video I see say it is better to have both systems. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank6791 said:


> Legacy/DCS question: if a person can only buy one system due to money or they have a small layout which system would be the one to buy. I can only buy one system due to money and my layout is not that big so which would be the one to buy. Every video I see say it is better to have both systems. Thanks.


What would work best for you?


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## Frank6791

Brendon, what one is the more comparable one. If you know. Meaning which one has more things that are compatible with it. Thanks.


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## Lee Willis

Legacy and DCS are not compatible with each other. They are different systems of the same type, kind of like the different between computer operating systems: they do the samething but in different ways needing different equipment. You'll need the equipment for each to run it, and the skills to learn to put it together, get it running, and use it. There is a lot of investment in money and time involved. The money is maybe $1,000 - I'm no expert on current prices, it was about half that back fifteen years ago when I had a Legacy system. The learning, given where you are starting out, like I was fifteen years ago, will take time and may be frustrating at times. I got mine running in about three weeks and mastered it in another two, but ultimately decided I'd go back to conventional, and now LC+, too. The fact that I did this does not mean you would not like Legacy or DCS. But realize what it costs in both money, time, and learning before you go into it. 

If you run either Legacy or DCS or both, you cannot run trains conventionally at the same time with them. You can run Lionchief or Lionchief Plus locos on the track with either system at the same time, however.


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## Frank6791

Lee, this is Frank. What made you get out of Legacy and go back to conventional. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Lee, I am curious why you got out of legacy and went back to conventional trains.


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## Frank6791

Lee, also since you gave a good explanation, now my question would be which system is used by more people. Thanks


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## gunrunnerjohn

If I had to pick one system, it would be Legacy. Of course, I didn't have to pick one system, so after a spell I added DCS to the mix.


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## mopac

Frank, I am new to O also. Just since this last Christmas. I just run conventional and
very happy with it. I am cheap also. I see legacy locomotives and I don't want to pay
that kind of money. I mainly do HO trains and have DCC and love it. I have a lot of money
in just my DCC system. I am sure I would like legacy. I have never been exposed to
legacy so really do not know what I am missing. I only have 3 O locomotives and they
each have railsounds so I am happy. You only have a small layout so I am not sure
why you want an expensive operation system. I wanted DCC in HO so I could operate
the sounds. With my O railroad I have a horn button and a whistle or horn button. At
least right now railsounds is good enough for me. I also do S gauge and for my S and my O I use an American flyer dual control 250 watt transformer. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## Frank6791

What is the most used system. Legacy or
DCS. THANKS.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Since Legacy encompasses TMCC as well, I'd have to say it has a wider customer base. TMCC was also licensed to a number of other train manufacturers, K-Line, Weaver, Atlas, 3rd Rail, etc. This resulted in a host of other makers command capable products that all run with the TMCC/Legacy system. Also, the TMCC command protocol is publicly available, DCS protocol is a closely guarded secret. That has resulted in many 3rd party vendors creating command accessories that are all capable of being controlled using TMCC or Legacy.


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## Frank6791

Lee, I am still curious why you got out of legacy. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

I will have to save my money for Legacy or buy it piece by piece.


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## Lee Willis

Frank6791 said:


> Lee, I am still curious why you got out of legacy. Thanks.


_Because it got in the way of running trains._ I should make it clear it is not that difficult to use, at least if everything goes right. You use a controller like LC+ does, but one controller will operate many trains. You have to program it with the road number of the loco, etc., and remember gobs of commands and then you can control all manner of things: operate the train to one mile per hour increments, set volume of every sounds, operate anything operable. All giving you a lot of control. I takes a while to learn,and often you forget and have to look something up. But it is amazing what you can do.

But I never wanted to do anything other than go up to the train room, turn on the power and run my trains. Doing that in conventional is faster and simpler. Also, legacy did give problems once in a while. No problem I ever had was difficult to diagnose and fxi - the worst took about four hours maybe, and frankly some friends who have it clearly find that fun and love to tinker with Legacy and DCS systems But to me it was too much like work. 

A point to keep in mind is that I do not operate my trains, staying at the controls, playing switcher and "making up trains," etc. If I did I might value Legacy more. I turn them on, set them moving and then let them run for several hours as nevertough the control, just letting them orbit the layout as I watch them while doing some other project or activity (like writing this).

By the way, DCS would be about the same. 

Why then, do I like LC+ so much? One reason. The only thing I really missed with Legacy is that you can run a loco slower in Legacy than you can in conventional. In conventional it is hard to get some locos to run smoothly much below 25 scale mph, at least if pulling a long train. With Legacy (DCS would do the same thing) you can get them to pull hard - i.e. a _long _train, but run really slow, very smoothly, like at 5 mph. 

I like LC+ because it let's me run trains down to about 3 - 5 mph smoothly, while they pull a lot of cars if I want them to, and yet it is simple and quick: I just power the track, grab the remote and turn it on, and go. No programming, nothing. LC+ does not have quite the fine-tuning of speed control of Legacy (you can program a Legacy loco to run at 12mph, or 13 mph, or14 mph, or 15, or16, or . . . . you get the idea. With LC+, the first notch in the speed dial is about 3 mph, the next about 6 mph, the next about 12 mph, and so forth. Good enough for me though:I usually set them at the third of fourth notch -about a scale 18 - 20 mph. 

As long as I am running on about things, one big thing important to me and how I operate trains. _Cruise control. _ Legacy, DCS, and LC+ all operate not by controlling the voltage to the loco's motor directly, but by controlling its cruise speed. You set the speed in Legacy and the system sees to it that the train maintains that speed, up hills, down, on level, around curves. DCS and LC+ do the same. 

Here's what I am leading up to about cruise control. TMCC (an early form of Legacy, if you will), Legacy and DCS locos will also operate in conventional: you often have to reach on the underside and flip a switch to put it in conventional mode, but then the loco will run just like a conventional loco, except,_ the cruise control operates in conventional too. It will activate itself _(at least unless you jump through hoops to tell it not to) by itself, without you doing anything. You start and operate the loco as normal in conventional operation, but its circuitry locks into the speed it is running about 4 seconds after it gets moving, and will maintain that up mild inclines, down, etc. I like that alot. I don't know if, when you operate them in conventional LC+ locos' cruise runs, because I've actually never run one of mine in conventional - must do that some day to see, but not today (they're all four running nicely right now, not going to disturb them).


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## Frank6791

Lee, I do not know if I really need Legacy. Maybe I could be just as happy like you running LC+ and conventional.


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## Guest

Frank, I chose DCS over Legacy for one reason. Most Legacy locos are too big to run on my layout. MTH Premier locos are also too large for my layout, but MTH Railking engines all run on O31 curves and are thus perfect for me. They are also in my price range. Therefore, DCS was the best choice for me. I also run LC+ since they also run on O31 curves. 

My advice is to start with conventional control. You might find that you can do all you want with conventional, or you might find that you would really like the freedom to walk around your layout with controller in hand. LC+ will give you walk around control without Legacy or DCS. LC+ sound is not as good as either Legacy or PS3 (DCS), but you may decide that it's good enough for you or you might find it disappointing compared to the more advanced sound systems. 

The only way to know what is best for you is through experience, and you can gain that experience by building a small layout. You will learn a lot building a small layout, much more than you can learn from us. Most importantly, you'll learn what you like most. After building a small layout you will be better prepared to build a bigger, better layout.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Country Joe said:


> The only way to know what is best for you is through experience, and you can gain that experience by building a small layout. You will learn a lot building a small layout, much more than you can learn from us. Most importantly, you'll learn what you like most. After building a small layout you will be better prepared to build a bigger, better layout.


That's some excellent advice Joe! :thumbsup:


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks. I did not know that legacy locos were too big to run 31" fast track. Joe sorry what size fast track do run. Meaning 31" curves and what else. Also your trains are mth railking and what other trains do you run. Thanks.


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## seayakbill

Frank6791 said:


> What is the most used system. Legacy or
> DCS. THANKS.


Frank, if you include TMCC with Legacy then that combination most likely has more users. Since DCS has been out significantly longer than Legacy I would guess just comparing Legacy to DCS there are more DCS users.

I have both TMCC and DCS since their conception, do not see a need for Legacy yet. I use both systems daily and at the same time. I have around 50 TMCC / Legacy controlled locos and around 50 DCS controlled locos and they all get a pretty good workout throughout the year.

The one function that I really like and use all the time is the "ALL" feature with DCS. I typically have 2 to 3 DCS controlled locos in operation on each of my 2 main lines. So anywhere from 4 to 6 locos receiving the same command really makes it easy to control multiple locos.

Bill


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## Lee Willis

Country Joe said:


> Frank, I chose DCS over Legacy for one reason. Most Legacy locos are too big to run on my layout. t.


This is a very good point worth thinking about. MTh does seem to make more really good, small steamers than Lionel, some real jewels, which are among my favorite locos. I you want to run a system like DCS and Legacy, you might have to pick one initially, for budget reasons. I'd recommend making the choice based on the locos you want. Don;t let concerns about the control system get in the way of the trains. That is what it is all about. So, I recommend you look over what's available from both companies and pick three to five premium locos you really like (whether you can afford them now or not). Then buy the system that will run the most of those five, say MTH is three out of those five, etc., then get DCS. If three or more of the five you like best are Lionel, go with Legacy. 

or, do like me, don't buy either system and run conventional. You will have saved enough money that you can probably buy all five locomotives.!!!


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## Frank6791

Lee,what transformer do you use for your layout. I do not have a transformer and some people have recommended a couple to me. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, thanks. I did not know that legacy locos were too big to run 31" fast track. Joe sorry what size fast track do run. Meaning 31" curves and what else. Also your trains are mth railking and what other trains do you run. Thanks.


Frank, I have O31 on the upper level and O36 on the lower level.

I have 3 Railking locomotives and 3 LionChief Plus locomotives, plus one Lionel conventional 0-8-0 that I run at shows.

Passenger cars are Williams and Railking.

Freight cars are MTH (mostly Railking with some Premier), Lionel, Menards and a couple of other brands that I can't remember at the moment.


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## Guest

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That's some excellent advice Joe! :thumbsup:


Thanks John. I am a big believer in starting small and completing a layout with scenery and all.


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## Frank6791

Joe, since I use the fast track like you do I am better off sticking with the railking and LC+ also. The buildings you have on your layout what are they. Traditional/basic o scale buildings. I like those buildings. Another thing joe I really like your layout. The thing I really liked the most from the pictures of your layout was the people canoeing in the water. I like how you made the water. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I don't know. I am not a dcs or legacy uset. I have about 5 lionchief, 2 lionchief plus and about 10 conventional locomotives. This gives me the option to run remote control or conventional like I grew up with. The lionchief remotes also gives the kids each a train to control on their own and less fighting with each other over who's turn it is. 

I set up layouts on the floor and after a few hours take them down when me and my kids are done playing with them. When I get a chance to build a permanent layout I am going to make it a medium size but I will have the option of conventional or remote control if I want it.


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## Guest

I think that a Railking (steam or diesel) or LC+ (steam engine) is a very good way to start. Both are very good quality. If you like diesels go with Railking. LC+ diesels with 2 motors seem to have mechanical problems. Railking and LC+ steam engines are comparably priced.

One advantage to LC+ is that it will run with what you have now. To run Railking you would need a transformer. You will eventually need to get a good transformer but you can put it off for a while and run LC+ with the power supply you have now.

If I was just starting in the hobby I would start with a Railking set and add to it over time.

The buildings on my layout are Railking. They come assembled, look good and are easy to wire. You can mix buildings from various manufacturers, I just like the Railking buildings.

Modeling water isn't hard. There are a number of good methods to create water. We can give you advice when you get to that stage on your layout.


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## Frank6791

Joe, the railking sets that you are referring to are they the ready to run sets or something else. I looked at the ready to run sets from railking and I could not find out what it comes with to run the train. Transformer or remote control. Thanks.


----------



## Guest

Frank, the sets are ready to run with all you need to get started. The new sets due out in October come with a 50 watt power supply and a Wifi unit. You supply the smart phone or tablet and download the free MTH app to run the train.

If you buy a set from last year's production they come with a DCS remote commander rather than a Wifi unit. The DCS commander uses infrared (like your TV remote) to run the train.

You will eventually have to buy a bigger transformer if you want to do more than just run the train but either set gives you all you need to get going. The locomotives have PS3 with all it's features and will run on a full DCS system if you decide to add one later on. The contemporary diesel sets come with an Imperial locomotive, not a stripped down version. The cars included are regular Railking cars.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I want to get the ready to run set that I can run with my apple iphone and use it with my fast track. Then down the road upgrade to the full dcs system like you have. Joe if it is not to much trouble can you send me some more pictures of your layout. I would appreciate it. I really like it. Thanks.


----------



## Guest

The previous pictures and trackplan are on page 18 or 19 of this thread. Here are some more pictures. The first picture is when I was just starting on the layout.

















































This 4 minute video shows the layout in action. Both locos running are Railking. The freight cars are Lionel and Railking and the passenger cars are Williams.


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## Frank6791

Joe, some additional things if you do not mind. Thanks for the pictures they were great. I like the pizza place and the man and woman outside in beach chairs. Joe, the video was an extra treat I really enjoyed it. I can watch it over and over. What is the train on the outside track every time it passes by the lights in the windows flash. I like that train. Joe, one of my favorite things in the video is when lights shut off and it turns to night. I saw other people do that before. How is it done. Joe, I did not know if you heard me but I want to get a railking ready to run set that runs by my iPhone. Then later down the road upgrade to the dcs system that you have you. Thanks


----------



## Guest

Frank, I'm glad you like the video. I thought it would be helpful. The train on the outside is a Railking New York Central Dreyfus Hudson pulling 4 Williams passenger cars. The lights blink because some of the wires from the center rail pickup roller are broken. I have to rewire the cars but I will replace the bulbs with LEDs.


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## Guest

Frank, I forgot to answer your question about the transition from day to night. I replaced the switch for the ceiling lights with a dimmer switch. I would just turn the switch to dim the lights for night running. I found that leaving the lights on very low was better than turning them off. It gives the effect of moonlight. Since I was a child I have enjoyed running the trains with only the light from the layout.


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## Frank6791

Joe, how do you make the lights go off like it is night time. I really like that. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

If, you do not mind what other railking locos do you have. Where do you store your trains. Do you have shelves or something else. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, how do you make the lights go off like it is night time. I really like that. Thanks.


Frank, I answered in post 345 above. I have to run and will answer your other question later.


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## Frank6791

Joe, when you do get back to me what are the names of your other railking locos. Where do you store your trains. On shelves or somewhere else. Joe, I just wanted to tell you everything you have for your layout I really like it. That is exactly what I want for my layout. Same trains, dcs system, same buildings and fast track. But I already have fast track. I like it all thanks.


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## Guest

I'm back. I have 6 locos that I run on the layout. My other Railking is the Aerotrain. It is sold as a set, but not a starter set. The loco and 3 cars are included, but no track or transformer. I also have 3 LionChief Plus locos. I change the locos and cars running on the layout every now and then for variety. This is the Aerotrain.









I have two bookcases under one end of the layout. I have the transformers and DCS on the top and trains stored on the shelves. I don't have that many trains and the bookcases are big enough to store the trains that aren't on the layout.


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## Guest

Frank, these are my LionChief Plus locos.

NYC Hudson









Erie Camelback









PRR Mikado









My old layout could only run 2 trains at a time so 4 engines would be enough to all you to change out trains for variety.


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## Frank6791

Joe, sorry did I miss something. What is your third railking loco. Arose, New York City Dreyfus and what was the last. Maybe I missed it. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, it's the diesel in the video, an Also RS1. The locos I have may not be available right not. The Aerotrain is but the Dreyfus Hudson and RS1 may not be. My trains are all from the 1940-1960 period. If you like that period there are plenty of locos that you could substitute for mine if the ones I have aren't available. Also, you may want a different railroad rather than the New York Central. Look at sites like trainworld.com and charlesro.com and a few others to see what locos are currently available.


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## Guest

Frank, since you live in Pennsylvania you may want the Pennsylvania Railroad rather than the NYC. Railking has a few very nice PRR locos available now at the sites I listed above. Get locos and cars that you really like.


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## Frank6791

I will see if railking has a Pennsylvania railroad ready to run set that I can control with my iPhone. Thanks


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## Guest

Frank, this should take you to the MTH ready to run catalogue that shows the Pennsylvania Eagle starter set due to come out this October.

http://mthtrains.com/sites/default/files/catalog_files/2017_ortr/index.html

You can look through the catalogue and see if anything else catches your eye.


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## Frank6791

The railking buildings, on average how much does one of them cost. Just from what I know unless I am wrong. The building gets hooked up to a transformer. So my guess would be you put a hole in wood and put wires down through hole. Then feed wires under wood over to transformer. I am talking about how to hook/power up one of the buildings.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> The railking buildings, on average how much does one of them cost. Just from what I know unless I am wrong. The building gets hooked up to a transformer. So my guess would be you put a hole in wood and put wires down through hole. Then feed wires under wood over to transformer. I am talking about how to hook/power up one of the buildings.


That is exactly how the wiring is done. If you go to the catalogue link in post 356 you can see all the buildings and operating accessories with list prices that will be out later this year. Many of these buildings are the same as the last few years and can be bought at discount online. MB Klein has $79.99 Railking buildings listed at 59.99.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I can't thank you enough for answering my questions. How many buildings or accessories can be hooked up to one transformer. Another thing I wanted to ask you. The dcs system you have how many trains can that run at one time on the remote. You probably run all 3 of your trains at the same time using one remote. 2 things I am getting at are: first if I got a new railking rtr set, the wifi one where I control it with my iPhone later down the road how do I upgrade it to the dcs system you have. Second: joe, the dcs system you have you use a remote. Isn't there a way I can have the exact same dcs system you have but not use a remote just use my iPhone. I wonder what are the advantages or disadvantages are to using a dcs system with a remote as opposed to using a smart phone.thanks


----------



## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, I can't thank you enough for answering my questions. How many buildings or accessories can be hooked up to one transformer.


That depends on the number and type of lights and the power of the transformer. Incandescent bulbs use a lot of power, LEDs use very little. An old 275 watt ZW transformer will power a lot of accessories. I use a 80 watt CW80 transformer to power about 12 or 13 Railking buildings and that's about it's limit.



Frank6791 said:


> Another thing I wanted to ask you. The dcs system you have how many trains can that run at one time on the remote. You probably run all 3 of your trains at the same time using one remote.


I run 3 trains at one time using the DCS remote. It is capable of running 99 trains at one time.



Frank6791 said:


> 2 things I am getting at are: first if I got a new railking rtr set, the wifi one where I control it with my iPhone later down the road how do I upgrade it to the dcs system you have.


There are 2 options. You can buy the full DCS system (TIU base and remote) or just the TIU (base). The TIU list price is $199.95, about $170 at a discount online retailer and the full system list price is $349.95, about $310 at a discount online retailer.



Frank6791 said:


> Second: joe, the dcs system you have you use a remote. Isn't there a way I can have the exact same dcs system you have but not use a remote just use my iPhone. I wonder what are the advantages or disadvantages are to using a dcs system with a remote as opposed to using a smart phone.thanks


You can just buy the TIU as I said above and not the remote. I have never used the smartphone Wifi app so I don't know what it can do but I would think it can do everything the remote can do. I think there are some guys here that use the Wifi app and would know more about it's abilities than I do.

The ready to run starter sets come with the new DCS Explorer Track Interface Unit. That is your Wifi and base unit in one. I am not sure how this would work with a Track Interface Unit (TIU). If you go to

http://mthtrains.com

There is a contact us tab at the bottom of the page. You can ask them how you would use the DCS Explorer TIU as your layout grows.


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## Frank6791

Powering up buildings and accessories: a transformer has a side for accessories. From what I know you can only power up two accessories from the transformer accessorie side. My question is how do you put a lot of accessories on a transformer. Do you have to put a strip in. Like a terminal strip. Also do you use one transformer to power up trains and a seperate transformer to run accessories. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it. Also my wife like the video. Joe, I like your layout. Track, trains and buildings. I wan to get mine like yours.


----------



## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Powering up buildings and accessories: a transformer has a side for accessories. From what I know you can only power up two accessories from the transformer accessorie side. My question is how do you put a lot of accessories on a transformer. Do you have to put a strip in. Like a terminal strip. Also do you use one transformer to power up trains and a seperate transformer to run accessories. Thanks.


Frank, you could use a terminal strip. I run a red and a black wire under the layout. I drop feeder wires from each accessory to the wires under the table and use wiring nuts to make the connection. I like wiring nuts. They are easy to use, make a good connection and are easy to remove if I should ever need to. A terminal strip would be just as good.



Frank6791 said:


> Joe, thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it. Also my wife like the video. Joe, I like your layout. Track, trains and buildings. I wan to get mine like yours.


My layout would be a good first layout, especially if your wife likes it. It's big enough to have some fun with and small enough that it won't take forever to finish. If I built it again I would leave out the 4 switches that make crossovers between the loops. I usually ran a train on each loop and never used the crossovers.

If you decide to build it start a thread here so we can follow along. And post lots of pictures.


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## Frank6791

Joe, to see if I understand you. Each building comes with its own wires. Put a whole in the platform and put the wires for the building down the hole so they are under the table. You run a red and black wire under the table to the building wires and wire nut all the wires together. Did I get it. Also the red and black wires you run under the table where do they come from. Next how do you get the building hooked up to transformer I do not see that part.


----------



## Guest

The Railking buildings come with red and black wires. Drill a hole under each building and drop the red and black wires through those holes. When the building is in place it covers the hole. The red and black wires under the table connect to the red and black terminals on the transformer you are using to power the accessories. Run you wires from the transformer to the first accessory. At the first accessory connect the red feeder from the building, the red wire from the transformer and run another red wire from this accessory to the next. That gives you 3 red wires and 3 black wires. Use the wire nut to connect the 3 red wires together and the 3 black wires together. The third wire goes to the next accessory. Repeat this until you get to the last accessory. After you connect the first accessory test it to make sure it works as it should. Test each building and accessory as you connect them. This way you know right where the problem is if you have one. It's pretty easy, just requiring patience and perseverance. Take is step by step and you shouldn't have any problems.


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## Frank6791

Question: a transformer has 2 hook ups. One labeled trains and the other labeled accessories. Now when you hook up buildings or anything other than trains I thought you were supposed to use the accessories spot on transformer. How can you hook up 12 buildings on the cw-80 transformer if it only has 2 spots labeled accessories. Thanks.


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## Guest

I made a sketch in Paint. I hope this explains it. I show 3 buildings or accessories but there could be as many as the transformer will power before exceeding it's power limits.


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## Frank6791

I know wiring buildings is not that hard. I just can't picture it with out a visual. Sorry


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## Frank6791

Joe, see if I got it. The first building on the left get wired directly to the transformer. Then each new or additional building taps into those main wires that are run to the transformer. So joe the first building or accessorie Is the only one that ever gets connect directly to the transformer. Each additional thing say a building you use the wires from the building and wire it into the wires for the first building going to the transformer and keep going. Next building same thing wire the wires into main wires going to transformer. Next building same thing all the way down the line until transformer is maxed out.


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## Stoshu

_didn't Atlas have a lighting system for buildings ? Not sure if it was ever released but it was expandable and had dimmers if I remember right.... It was also LED plug and play..._


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## Guest

I think you've got it, Frank. Maybe this picture will help. The two wires running left to right are the red and black wires from the transformer. The lights represent the buildings. This is called parallel wiring.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I called MTH like you said. I asked them if I buy a rtr set that run by my iPhone how can I upgrade it to a full DCS system down the road. They said if I want down the road to upgrade to full dcs system I would need a TIU and either a remote or a WIU to use my iPhone. Joe, they call that a explorer WIU unit that comes with the rtr set. Mth said when you upgrade to the full dcs system you can not use the explores WIU that comes with rtr set because it is only for rtr set. Also they said the rtr set does not come with a TIU. So that is why if I wanted a full dcs system same one you have I would need a TIU and a different WIU. Then down load the premium app for 25. Them I can do everything your system can do and more with my iPhone.


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## Guest

That's kind of a shame that you can't use the Explorer WIU when you upgrade to a full DCS system. You could use it to run a train under the Christmas Tree. The good part is that the rtr set gets you up and running right away without spending the extra money for the DCS right away.


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## Frank6791

Joe, like I said you did not know so I just to let you know for your own info.


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## Guest

Thanks Frank.


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## Frank6791

If I want to buy switches how are sold. Individual or can you buy a set with more than one switch and other stuff


----------



## Chiefmcfuz

Frank6791 said:


> If I want to buy switches how are sold. Individual or can you buy a set with more than one switch and other stuff


It depends. Tubular track has both pairs and singles. Fastrack is usually only single. I don't know about the other companies. Best bet is to go to a train shop and ask what they have and tell them what you are planning to do. Also check out hobbyspeed.com they sell track packs.


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## Frank6791

What is the difference between HO transformers and O transformers. When I was a kid my dad used to set up the trains for us but he was into HO I like O better. Can you use the transformers from the HO trains on O trains or not. Thanks.


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> What is the difference between HO transformers and O transformers. When I was a kid my dad used to set up the trains for us but he was into HO I like O better. Can you use the transformers from the HO trains on O trains or not. Thanks.


Most O gauge engines run on AC. Most HO engines run on DC. So the general answer is no.


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## Frank6791

Highvoltage: do you run conventional or legacy/dcs. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Highvoltage: I want to get the dcs system by mth and run the trains with my iPhone. That is my goal. Thanks.


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage: do you run conventional or legacy/dcs. Thanks.


Both. I have two conventional steamers and one conventional diesel. I also have a legacy diesel.


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage: I want to get the dcs system by mth and run the trains with my iPhone. That is my goal. Thanks.


Good luck and have fun with it.


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## Frank6791

Highvoltage what transformer do you have. Also you have a legacy system.


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage what transformer do you have. Also you have a legacy system.


I have my old Lionel KW from when I was a kid.

And yes, I have a legacy system. Right now I only run one engine at a time. When I complete the layout I'll be using two different tracks with two transformers.


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## Frank6791

Highvoltage: I run my trains on Lionel fast track. Lagecy trains are to big to run on fast track so the lagecy system is out for me. Mth railking trains fit on fast track so that is why I am going with the mth dcs system or I would get legacy like you. Thanks.


----------



## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage: I run my trains on Lionel fast track. Lagecy trains are to big to run on fast track so the lagecy system is out for me. Mth railking trains fit on fast track so that is why I am going with the mth dcs system or I would get legacy like you. Thanks.


I'm running my Legacy SD90MAC on O72 FasTrack, so it's doable.

It's not the type of track you use, but the diameter. Larger engines most likely won't negotiate smaller diameter tracks regardless of manufacturer.


----------



## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage: I run my trains on Lionel fast track. Lagecy trains are to big to run on fast track so the lagecy system is out for me. Mth railking trains fit on fast track so that is why I am going with the mth dcs system or I would get legacy like you. Thanks.


Frank, I have four Legacy engines I run on my Fastrack without a issue. Some Legacy engines will run on 036 curves. I have six 036 curves so it does limit what Legacy engines I can buy. MTH will work nicely for what you want.


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## Frank6791

Highvoltage, so to run bigger trains like lsgecy trains on fast track I can do it. I just have to use bigger track for the bigger trains. I that what you are saying. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage: I run my trains on Lionel fast track. Lagecy trains are to big to run on fast track so the lagecy system is out for me.


HUH? I run every Legacy locomotive I own on Fastrack, including the largest scale steamers.


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> Highvoltage, so to run bigger trains like legacy trains on fast track I can do it. I just have to use bigger track for the bigger trains. I that what you are saying. Thanks.


Longer engines requires a larger diameter curve. Otherwise the overhang in the corners might interfere, especially negotiating turnouts.


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## Chiefmcfuz

What is your layout plan?


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## DennyM

Frank, where did you get the idea that Legacy is bigger? They come in many sizes. My Legacy engines can operate on 036 curves. Some Legacy engines require bigger curves. However, Legacy Lionmaster engines can operate on 031 curves.


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## Guest

Denny, he probably got that from me. I didn't know that *any* Legacy engines could run on O36. I thought O42 was the minimum for a few, O54 for a few more and O72 for most. :dunno:


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## gunrunnerjohn

Lots of the diesels run on O36, and I suspect even some of the small steamers.

My Legacy Lindbergh Atlantic specifies O31 curves, ditto for my Legacy C&O 10-wheeler and my Legacy 2-truck Shay. My Sharks run on O36 as well as my Legacy U-boats. I don't want to forget my 0-6-0 B6b, also will run on O31.

AFAIK, anything that Lionel makes will run on Fastrack O72 or larger, it would be silly of them to not make that happen.


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## DennyM

Country Joe said:


> Denny, he probably got that from me. I didn't know that *any* Legacy engines could run on O36. I thought O42 was the minimum for a few, O54 for a few more and O72 for most. :dunno:


I think that some of the steam engines need bigger curves unless they're Lionmaster engines. I have seen the specs on some of the diesel engines that need 054 like the DD35A Union Pacific which needs 054.


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## Guest

Thanks for the info John and Denny. Maybe I'll add Legacy to my layout sometime down the road.


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## Lee Willis

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Lots of the diesels run on O36, and I suspect even some of the small steamers.
> 
> My Legacy Lindbergh Atlantic specifies O31 curves, ditto for my Legacy C&O 10-wheeler and my Legacy 2-truck Shay. My Sharks run on O36 as well as my Legacy U-boats. I don't want to forget my 0-6-0 B6b, also will run on O31.
> 
> AFAIK, anything that Lionel makes will run on Fastrack O72 or larger, it would be silly of them to not make that happen.



If I remember right, won't the Vision Hudson run on O-36? I can't recall but will test mine later. I recall being surprised it could go around tight curves, but I can't remember if that was 42 or36 inch diameter part of my layout.

EDIT:Yes, it will. Here is mine running on Atlas 36" diameter.


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## DennyM

On Lionel's website it says a TMCC Lionmaster Big Boy will run 031 curves. Personally I would have to see that.
http://www.lionel.com/products/union-pacific-tmcc-lionmaster-4-8-8-4-big-boy-4024-6-38075/


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## Lee Willis

DennyM said:


> On Lionel's website it says a TMCC Lionmaster Big Boy will run 031 curves. Personally I would have to see that.
> http://www.lionel.com/products/union-pacific-tmcc-lionmaster-4-8-8-4-big-boy-4024-6-38075/


I had an LM BB and loved it. Wore it out. They look silly on O-31 but they really will do it. I ran mine on O-48 to O-72 and it looked good. It had a good ten years of life before it just wore out gears and everything. Had about 4000+ hours on it.


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## gunrunnerjohn

All the Lionmaster series run on O31, that's one of the design criteria.


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## DennyM

I have one Lionmaster Legacy. It's a SD80 NYC from 2010. The box says it's a SD80, but Lionel's website says SD90MAC.


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## Chiefmcfuz

What happened to Frank?


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## Frank6791

Brendon, I am still hear


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## highvoltage

DennyM said:


> I have one Lionmaster Legacy. It's a SD80 NYC from 2010. The box says it's a SD80, but Lionel's website says SD90MAC.
> 
> View attachment 334642


Look for the numberboards on the front. On the SD80 they should be above the front windows. On the SD90 they will be on the nose.


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## DennyM

It's a SD80. I guess whoever did the website doesn't know the difference or it's a typo.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank, before anything else is decided you need to know what you are doing as far as a track plan and layout.


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## highvoltage

DennyM said:


> It's a SD80. I guess whoever did the website doesn't know the difference or it's a typo...


The differences are subtle. Besides the numberboards, another clue is the headlights. On the SD80 they're above the cab windows between the numberboards (like yours). On the SD90 they're in the nose.

Another difference is the lack of a rear sandbox on the SD90, although I don't know if Lionel has that feature on the SD80.

Other than that they are virtually identical.


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## DennyM

highvoltage said:


> The differences are subtle. Besides the numberboards, another clue is the headlights. On the SD80 they're above the cab windows between the numberboards (like yours). On the SD90 they're in the nose.
> 
> Another difference is the lack of a rear sandbox on the SD90, although I don't know if Lionel has that feature on the SD80.
> 
> Other than that they are virtually identical.


Thanks for pointing that out. It's nice to be able to ID a engine without having to dig out the box or go looking on Google.


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## Frank6791

Joe, your old layout you gave me the track plan for it can you tell me what track I would need. Meaning how much of each different kind of track. Also can you give me the track plan of your current layout. I would really appreciate it. Thanks joe.


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## Frank6791

Joe, in post # 190 you gave me your track plan but what track is needed switches, siding etc and how many. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, I'll try to get you the information later today. I have a track planning program for MAC so I can convert the plan to a jpeg picture and get a parts list.


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## Frank6791

Joe, you do not know how much I appreciate that. That would be wonderful thanks.


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## sjm9911

After you get the track and table built we can help with placement of stuff and basic wireing. You need a transformer first!


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## Guest

Frank, this is the trackplan for my 6x9 layout.









Unfortunately I designed it with SCARM, a free track planning program for windows. I no longer have that computer. I have a Mac Book Pro and SCARM can't run on it and I no longer have the actual trackplan, just the picture. Note: The industrial spur in the lower right was originally as show above but I changed it as in the plan below. It was a tight fit for a car at the warehouse but by moving it I was able to fit in more town buildings.

The good part is that if I were building that layout today I would use this trackplan instead. It's almost the same. I took out the 4 switches that allowed a train to cross from one loop to the other. I found that I never used those switches and wouldn't include them now. Switches are expensive and it's a waste to pay for 4 of them and then not use them. This is how I would build it today.









The table is the same size, 6'x9' with a 30"x30" addition on the top right. I haven't been able to figure out how to draw the table with the new trackplan program but it would be exactly the same as the first plan. If you didn't want the 30"x30" add on you would just eliminate 2 spurs and have 4 places for industries rather than 6. This is the list of track used:

30 Track (10")	Lionel 
12 Curved Track 048 (30° Section) 
2 Half Curved Track 036 (22.5° Section) 
5 Quarter Curved Track 036 (11.25° Section) (1 is includes with each switch) 
6 Lighted Bumper (5") (2 per Package 
8 Curved Track 036 (45° Section) 
5 036 Left Switch 33 3/4 degree 
1 036 Right Switch 33 3/4 degree

This is my current layout. It is 10'9"x20'4". It's a little difficult to see but there is an elevated oval in the middle. I used MTH Realtrax for that because I had it. Any track with O31 curves could be used since it's not connected with the main lower track.









This is the list of track used. For the lower mainline:

2 036 Right Switch
4 036 Manual Left Switch
42 Straight Track (10")
22 Curved Track 036 (45° Section)
8 30" Straight Track
6 Curved Track 048 (30° Section)
13 Half Straight Track (5")
3 Straight Track (4 1/2")
3 Straight track (1 3/8")
2 Straight track (1 3/4")
6 Lighted Bumper (5") (2 per Package)
3 Quarter Curved Track 036 (11.25° Section)

For the upper loop:

12 10" Straight	
8 O-31 Curved

A lot of building a layout is trial and error. We learn as we go and make mistakes even when we have years of experience. If I were in your shoes and building my first layout I would go with the second plan. You could use manual switches to save money though I used remote control because they light up. I control all my switches manually. Building that layout and running trains will teach you a lot, plus you will learn what you like most.

Good luck. If you have any more questions I'll try my best to answer.


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks again. The one you are telling me to do is your old layout with out the switches that make the train cross track. What is a lighted bumper. Thanks


----------



## Guest

Frank, a lighted bumper is a bumper for the end of the track and it's lighted. You can see one here at the end of the track.









They also make bumpers that aren't lighted.


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## DennyM

Frank, these are Fastrack Lighted Bumpers.


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## Frank6791

First time I really ever saw them. Thanks, Joe and Denny.


----------



## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, thanks again. The one you are telling me to do is your old layout with out the switches that make the train cross track. What is a lighted bumper. Thanks


Yes, that's the one I would recommend as your first layout.


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## sjm9911

Joe nice layout!


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## Guest

sjm9911 said:


> Joe nice layout!


Thanks sjm.


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## Frank6791

Joe, since I do not know can you explain it to me. On your layout if I am correct there is 3 sidings and an industrial spur. What are each one used for does the train actual ride on these or is it for storage or something else. Thanks


----------



## Frank6791

Denny, or Lee any can chime in. I wanted to know if anyone read any particular model railroad mazgazines. Something like classic toy trains or o railroading and how they liked it. Thanks.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn

DennyM said:


> Frank, these are Fastrack Lighted Bumpers.


Note that they only light when they want to, I've had to modify all of mine to make them reliable.


----------



## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, since I do not know can you explain it to me. On your layout if I am correct there is 3 sidings and an industrial spur. What are each one used for does the train actual ride on these or is it for storage or something else. Thanks


Frank, they are all industrial sidings or spurs. Railroads have customers along the line where they drop of and pick up cars. On the inside loop the spur at the top I had Pittsburgh Dry Goods.









The inside loop at the bottom I had the Coca Cola warehouse. I made the sign.

















On the outside loop on the bottom left is a freight station.









The three spurs at the top right had a milk platform on the left track and an industrial building on the middle spur, both in this picture.









On the spur furthest to the right was a freight platform.











gunrunnerjohn said:


> Note that they only light when they want to, I've had to modify all of mine to make them reliable.


John, I got mine to light reliably by playing with them.


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## Guest

Frank, the spurs are switched by a way freight, a freight train that picks up and deliver cars to industries along the line. Some industries get goods delivered, unload the car and the railroad picks up the empty car. Other industries receive an empty car and load it with goods to be shipped to a customer, and some receive raw materials and reload the car with finished goods to be shipped. A freight station, platform or team track is for businesses too small to have their own track. When running your freight trains it is fun to stop to deliver or pick up a car.


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## Frank6791

Joe, good morning. Thanks for your help. Do you read/subscribe to any train magazines. I want to read one but do not know which one. Thanks.


----------



## Guest

Frank, I subscribe to Classic Toy Trains. O Gauge Railroading is also a good magazine but I don't subscribe to it. I suggest going to Barnes and Noble and looking through the latest issue of each. You may like one better than the other and the only way to know is to sample both. B&N will allow you to sit and read.


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## Frank6791

Does fast track have track pack where all different kinds of track come in the pack or straight and curved track as well as other types of track all have to be purchased seperate. Thanks.


----------



## Lee Willis

There are add on packs for specific purposes (add a siding, etc.) The track comes in various diameters of curve and various lenghts of straight from about 2" to 30"


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## Frank6791

Lee, I did see the fast track add on packs you were talking about. Thanks.


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## highvoltage

Frank, you've been holding out on us! Over 400 posts in this thread and we've thought you hadn't done anything.

But here you are offering advice to a newbie:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showpost.php?p=1866170&postcount=21

We need pictures man! Show us your progress! :appl:


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## Frank6791

Denny or Joe, you use fast track. I have a question: the only fast track I have came with a ready to run set. I am trying to build a layout and wanted to know what is the cheapest way to buy the fast track. I know they have fast track pack that have 4 track pieces in one pack. Do they track packs where you can get all different kinds of track. Denny, I just wanted to know cheapest and best way to buy the track. If I have to keep buying packs of 4 track it can get very expensive. Any help/info would be great. Thanks.


----------



## Frank6791

Joe, did you buy any track packs or expansion packs when making your old layout. I am going to start building your old layout just did not know track was that expensive for what you get. So I was asking cheapest way to buy track and how you bought track. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Check out www.hobbyspeed.com

Like I said they have larger track packs.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Once you get past the initial stages of the layout, you're better off as a rule just buying the track pieces you need and not trying to make track packs fit.


----------



## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, did you buy any track packs or expansion packs when making your old layout. I am going to start building your old layout just did not know track was that expensive for what you get. So I was asking cheapest way to buy track and how you bought track. Thanks.


No, I bought individual sections as I needed them. The cheapest way to buy track is to use tubular track. You would have to adapt the plan if you use tubular track but it can be done. Tubular track doesn't look as real as FasTrack but you can add ties and ballast it and it can look very good.


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks. That is just what I though. When making a layout and buying fast track I just have to buy single track sections as I need them. The only time I bought fast track it was the straight pieces. It came 4 straight track sections in one pack.


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## Frank6791

Joe, as always thanks for the help. I just did not know Fast track was that expensive.


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## mopac

I am new to O also. I had some O27 track from many years ago. I do not want to
use O27. So I was starting out with nothing. I have been buying Menards tubular
track. It is really low cost and so far working fine. Only problem I have had is some of the ties are not real tight on the rails and sometimes the rails move when putting tack together. Not that hard to work around. I do not know for sure how much Fast Track or
Gar graves track costs, but I am sure a lot more than Menards track. I am on the cheap
side. Sorry O gauge guys, I am not fond of any 3 rail track. I have no railroads around me using 3 rail track. Gar Graves looks the best but it is still 3 rail. I do like running O
gauge locos so it is what it is. They have big motors and I like that, many times 2 motors.
I think once I get my layout built and the Menards track screwed down it will be fine. I
have bought cases of O42 and O31 and plan on 2 loops on the layout. You have to watch what size locos you buy.


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## Frank6791

Mopac. How do you buy cases of track and how much does it cost. It must be expensive. Thanks.


----------



## mopac

Frank, go to menards online and check out the prices. I do not remember how much they are. I think you will find it is a lot less than fast track. The fast track looks better because
it has a built in roadbed. But it is expensive. Menards has many sizes of curves. You should check it out. The cases are not that big. Many guys here use tubular track. Menards is a lot cheaper than lionel. The menards track is fine for me. I think the Midwest
cork roadbed looks good under tubular track. At least you have a roadbed. You can then
add ballast (small rocks) and it looks even better. At least look at prices on menards track.
Its probably your cheapest (less expensive) track.

Anybody else using menards track?

If you have a menards near you, you can order online and pickup at your local menards and no shipping charge. You can
have it shipped to your house but there is a shipping charge.


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## Guest

Frank, Menards track is a good alternative. I'm not sure about switches for tubular but many guys here use them and should know.

I like FasTrack and figure that while it's a little expensive it will last me the rest of my life so it's worth it.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I totally agree. It is expensive but worth it. The one and only time I bought fastrack i bought straight track. It came 4 pieces of track in each pack. I do not remember the price. Also joe, when making my layout I have to remember it's going to take time because I have to accumulate all the different track and that takes time and money.


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## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, I totally agree. It is expensive but worth it. The one and only time I bought fastrack i bought straight track. It came 4 pieces of track in each pack. I do not remember the price. Also joe, when making my layout I have to remember it's going to take time because I have to accumulate all the different track and that takes time and money.


That's what I did. It took about five years to get where I'm at now. Last year I added 7ft to my layout and I'm still thinking about adding more.


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## Frank6791

Denny, thanks. Just what I heard. It's better to buy individual packs of track. Then to try and make track packs fit. Denny, it's nice to know if I need help you will help me. Sometime send me a picture of your layout thanks.


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## rdmtgm

I am using a combination of Menards track and Fastrack. The lower two loops are Menards, I bought a case of 072 and a case of 054 curves and a case of the long straights. about 150.00 for two pretty big loops and plenty of extra straights for sidings. The second level is all Fastrack mostly because I already had it. Third level is still undecided.
Randy


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## Frank6791

John, if you do not mind. Single track sections of fastrack at the store where you work, how are they sold and how much do they cost. The one time I bought fastrack It came 4 sections to a pack and I do not remember the price. Do they still sell it that way. Also John just taking a guess I would bet the switches are very expensive. I did not buy any yet. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I typically look for people selling a quantity of used track, I get a lot more for less money that way. If you're asking what Henning's Trains sells Fastrack for, here's a search on the topic: Henning's Trains Fastrack Inventory.


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## Frank6791

Denny, this is Frank. Would I be able to see pictures of your layout sometime. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Train shows are great


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## Frank6791

Did you go to one recently.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Not in NY but you should have a few coming up in Pennsylvania


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## Frank6791

I do not know about train shows in PA. I will have to look into it.


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## DennyM

The York, PA train show is coming up in October and they are open to the public on Friday and Saturday, but only in the dealer halls. You have to be a member of the Train Collectors Association (TCA) or a guest of a member to go in the members halls.


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## Frank6791

Ok. Thank you


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## Chiefmcfuz

https://www.railserve.com/events/train_shows.html


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## Frank6791

John, where do you get most of your big quantity of used track you told me about. Ebay or somewhere else. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I usually get my used Fastrack on forum posts with quantities for sale. Many times you can get a quantity for 30-40% off the new price if you buy a lot. When you're fooling around with configurations, it's always useful to have lots of extra little fitter pieces.


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## DennyM

Frank, just out of curiosity, how close are you to Grzyboski's Train Store in Moosic. PA?
https://www.grzyboskitrains.com/

Or Hennings in Lansdale, PA?
http://www.henningstrains.com/

There are at least a dozen more in PA I saw on-line.


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## teledoc

Frank, You are less than a half hour away from Nicholas Smith trains. Make the trip to his location, and talk with them. It will be well worth the visit.


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## Frank6791

Denny, to answer your question. Nicholas Smith trains is the closest to me. 15 min away. I bought stuff in their before. Hennings in Lansdale is about 45-1hr from my house. I know where it is. The last store in Moosic, PA. I never heard of Moosic PA.


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## highvoltage

Frank6791 said:


> ...The last store in Moosic, PA. I never heard of Moosic PA.


It's on the southwest corner of Scranton. It's where the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton International Airport is located.


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## DennyM

Frank6791 said:


> Denny, to answer your question. Nicholas Smith trains is the closest to me. 15 min away. I bought stuff in their before. Hennings in Lansdale is about 45-1hr from my house. I know where it is. The last store in Moosic, PA. I never heard of Moosic PA.


That's okay, I never heard of Moosic either until I saw the address on they're website.:dunno: I've bought stuff from Nicholas Trains at the York train show.


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## Frank6791

John, I am going to take your advice and look on the forum for someone selling a lot of fast track cheap. Thanks


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## Frank6791

Denny, just curious how much have you already added to your layout this year.


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## DennyM

Well lets see, a car here a truck there and I just added some Harry Potter figures and a couple of Railking street lamps. Oh yeah and Lionel Mainline Auto Crossing Gates and a Menards Cheppewa Valley Farm Supply building and some Legacy engines, a K-Line bay window caboose and a couple two more Lionel Chessie System passenger cars. I have no idea what I'll end up bring home from the York train show this October.


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## Frank6791

Denny, can I see pictures of your layout. If you do not mind. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Where are forum posts that have fast track for sale. Is that in the buy and sell area of the forum. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

There are a few people on the Facebook forums that are selling track lots.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Facebook and OGR both frequently has people selling track.


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## Frank6791

Joe, this is Frank. How have you been. Have you done anything to your layout lately.


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## Frank6791

John, just curious. Did you ever buy a lot of fast track off of eBay. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

I remember selling and buying huge lots of fastrack and tubular track on Facebook and at train shows at really great prices.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank6791 said:


> John, just curious. Did you ever buy a lot of fast track off of eBay. Thanks.


I've bought some specific bundles off eBay, but a lot of it I bought on OGR. People list a while batch of it, I went a couple of times and bargained for the whole lot and got a very good price.


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## Frank6791

Joe, how are you. How is the weather down in Florida right now. Add anything new to your layout.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, how are you. How is the weather down in Florida right now. Add anything new to your layout.


Thanks for asking, Frank. The weather is beautiful right now. The big storm is on it's way and we'll have to see where it will go. 

We had guests for most of August so I haven't done anything on the layout. I'll get back to it after Irma goes away.


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## Frank6791

Joe, the week of August 13th I went to Tennessee. Pigeon forge and Gatlinburg to be exact. Dolly wood was a lot of fun. I stayed at Dolly's Dream More Resort. It's only 2 years old. It's gourgous. I can't wait to go back. 
Question: your old layout. The outer circle/oval was that 048 track and the inner circle/oval 036 track. I thought it was but not sure. I know you gave me a list of the track use. Joe, right now I have only one circle set up on my platform it is the one that came with my polar express rtr set. My first goal/hurdle is to make a inner circle/oval so I can have to trains running. One on outside circle and one on inside circle. Then I will go from there.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Guys, take the sale talk here: Fastrack for Sale


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## Frank6791

John, no problem at all. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Joe,Question: your old layout. The outer circle/oval was that 048 track and the inner circle/oval 036 track. I thought it was but not sure. I know you gave me a list of the track use. Joe, right now I have only one circle set up on my platform it is the one that came with my polar express rtr set. My first goal/hurdle is to make a inner circle/oval so I can have to trains running. One on outside circle and one on inside circle. Then I will go from there. Thanks. 

48 / 49


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## Guest

Frank, you are correct, the outer oval was O48 and the inner oval was O36. You could use O36 for both ovals but the track won't line up on the curves. The O48 on the outer loop keeps the tracks the same distance apart.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank it would be great if you could post pictures of what you have now. We all would love to see it.


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks you are a great friend.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Just saw this on Facebook


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## DennyM

Frank, you should jump on that. Find out if the transformer is a CW-80 or CW-40. The CW-80 will give you a little more power to run some accessories or lights.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, thanks you are a great friend.


Thanks Frank.


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## Chiefmcfuz

You're welcome


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## highvoltage

Chiefmcfuz said:


> You're welcome


 Yeah, I've been tempted to post that also.


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## Frank6791

John or anybody else where is the best place to buy a ZW250 or ZW275 transformer. Also what is the price range of these transformers. New, used or refurbished what is the way to go. 
I heard Harry Lutz was a good person to buy the transformer from but do not know. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

This guy is a transformer expert and sells some reconditioned stuff at decent prices. I would have no problem trusting his work.

Tranz4mr’s Home Page

He lists some transformers for sale here: Tranz4mr’s Yard Sale.


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## Frank6791

John, thanks for the transformer guys info. Do you know anything about Harry Lutz. A few people recommend him but I do not know how good he is. All I know is he is from Bethlehem PA. Thanks.


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## DennyM

I bought a ZW from Harry back in 2015 at York. It worked great, but I traded it for a more modern ZW-C. I also bought a couple of TWs for a friend last April at York from Harry and they work good as well. His prices aren't bad either.


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## gunrunnerjohn

I've heard good things about Harry, but I've never seen any of his work personally.


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## Frank6791

John, the guy you recommend tranz4mr's. Have you seen any of his work personally. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Yes, I have seen several of his rebuilt transformers, all looked great and worked perfectly. He's also pretty generous with his advice for the DIY crowd, that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling as well.


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## Frank6791

Thanks John. I am glad you have seen his rebuilt transformers first hand and they worked perfectly. Also like you said it is good to know he is generous with his advice.


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## Frank6791

Hey John. Something I found. Have you ever seen lioneltransformer.com. The transformers on the site are rebuilt by Davis Lyons. That is his site. Thought you might be interested.


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## Chiefmcfuz

NY Electric Trains sells ZW transformers for 125-175 depending on the type, how much work they need and if he is having a live online sale. Last night he sold MTH in his live online sale and there were tons of trains. Last week was a mixture of trains, transformers and track. He does the live online sales at least once per week and sometimes throws a surpeise sale in every once in a while. When he does his sales he gets alot of people to participate and his prices are amazing. I have bought switches, a transformer, and about 7 postwar locomotive projects from him and paid a fraction of the cost I would have anywhere else. He is very responsive to questions and really really cares about customers.


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## Wood

Chiefmcfuz said:


> NY Electric Trains sells ZW transformers for 125-175 depending on the type, how much work they need and if he is having a live online sale. Last night he sold MTH in his live online sale and there were tons of trains. Last week was a mixture of trains, transformers and track. He does the live online sales at least once per week and sometimes throws a surpeise sale in every once in a while. When he does his sales he gets alot of people to participate and his prices are amazing. I have bought switches, a transformer, and about 7 postwar locomotive projects from him and paid a fraction of the cost I would have anywhere else. He is very responsive to questions and really really cares about customers.



Chief - Is this an eBay seller or does he have his own web auctions? Would you mind providing a link? 

Thanks,


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## Chiefmcfuz

Wood he is on ebay but I usually just follow him and his partner on Facebook.


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## Frank6791

Joe, question: my friend Ed lives in Leesburg Florida. How far is that from where you live. My platform is 4x8 and your old layout was 6x9. I hope the two ovals fit on my 4x8 platform. Thanks.


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## Wood

Chiefmcfuz said:


> Wood he is on ebay but I usually just follow him and his partner on Facebook.


Thank you Chief, I got it.


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## Chiefmcfuz

You're welcome.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, question: my friend Ed lives in Leesburg Florida. How far is that from where you live. My platform is 4x8 and your old layout was 6x9. I hope the two ovals fit on my 4x8 platform. Thanks.


I'm guessing about 3 or more hours away. It's northwest of Orlando which is about a 2.25 hour drive from Vero Beach.


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## Frank6791

Joe, now back to my original question: do you think two ovals/circles outside being 048 and inside being 036 will fit on my 4x8 platform. I say no. What do you think. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

John, the guy you recommended Kent Schwartz is excellent at rebuilding post war ZW transformers. His prices are: he said he does repairs locally mostly because the shipping is 40-50 to Colorado and back to PA. Also he said shipping plus 40 labor plus about 16 average parts is generally to much for most guys. Now if you want him to rebuild your transformer he will you can email him or call him. Buying one of his rebuilds: 145 plus shipping 20-25 you get a 6 month parts and labor guarantee. Kent is excellent. If anyone wants a list of what he rebuilds let me know. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank6791 said:


> Joe, now back to my original question: do you think two ovals/circles outside being 048 and inside being 036 will fit on my 4x8 platform. I say no. What do you think. Thanks.


Frank, you would have to go about 4'6"x8' for it to work. For a 4x8 layout you could use different track that makes O31 and O42 curves such as tubular track or Realtrax.


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## Frank6791

Joe, thanks for getting back to me. I thought it might not work. 4x8 is kind of small. How did you make out in Irma. If you need anything let me know.


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## Guest

Thanks Frank. We went to NY to visit family and friends. Our neighbors in Vero Beach told us that our house had no damage and power is back on.


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## highvoltage

Country Joe said:


> Thanks Frank. We went to NY to visit family and friends. Our neighbors in Vero Beach told us that our house had no damage and power is back on.


That's good to hear. Good luck.


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## Frank6791

Joe, just wanted you to know if your or your family need anything let me know. I am glad your house had no damage.


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## Guest

highvoltage said:


> That's good to hear. Good luck.


Thanks HV. I just saw on TV how flooded Jacksonville is and we are wondering if I95 will be passable when we go home.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Country Joe said:


> Thanks Frank. We went to NY to visit family and friends. Our neighbors in Vero Beach told us that our house had no damage and power is back on.


Better get back there before the looters show up, seems there are those types anytime there is a disaster like this.


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## DennyM

Frank I don't know what type of track your going with, but here is a Fastrack guide.

https://www.trainz.com/pages/the-guide-to-lionel-fastrack


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## Frank6791

Thanks, Denny. Much appreciated.


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## Frank6791

John, I got the same warm fuzzy feeling when I talked to Kent the transformer expert. A lot of good info. He rebuilds transformers better than a couple of the people I looked at especially Harry.


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## callmeIshmael2

I think it's time to set up Frank with his own 'Questions That Bring Only More Questions' column, lol. Frank, seriously, pls. show us all what you have to work with so far - that might help some of the real forum experts to help you find your direction...


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## Lee Willis

callmeIshmael2 said:


> I think it's time to set up Frank with his own 'Questions That Bring Only More Questions' column, lol. Frank, seriously, pls. show us all what you have to work with so far - that might help some of the real forum experts to help you find your direction...


I agree!!! Frank, for the longest time I was convinced you were not a real person but a bot. The lack of specificity and photos seemed to indicate that. callmeIshmael2 has a good suggestion. Get more detailed info into your posts, and my strongest suggestion is to learn how to post photos (it is easy) to show particular things. This will reward you with more specific and thorough information to help you get what you want from model railroading. As general, unspecific questions and you get fuzzy, unspecific answers. Show picture and give details and your get detailed advice that fits your needs.


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## Frank6791

How do you post pictures. I know it is easy, but how do you do it. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

I mean if I take a picture with my phone of my train layout. How can I post the pictures to this forum. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, I transfer photos from my phone to my computer and then post them to the forum. I like having all my photos on my computer so it works for me.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I will put the pictures on my computer first. Then post them to the forum. Thanks.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I did not know that after you save the picture to your computer you could put it right into the forum. I thought there was something special you had to do to put your own pictures into the forum. Thanks.


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## Guest

Frank, just use the "go advanced" button and then there is a "manage attachments" button where you can upload pictures. Click on the paper clip at the top of the text box to insert pictures into the post. It's really easy once you've done it a few times.


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## Frank6791

Joe, just asking how does real trax compare to Lionel fast track. A lot of what I read the track is no too good but I believe your opinion more. Also how does the price compare. Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn

Frank, did you look in Forum News, Updates, and Help? In there you'll find: How to post pictures.


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## Guest

Frank, Realtrax is cheaper than FasTrack. If you are building a larger layout you can save quite a bit of money by using it. It seems to be decent track but I prefer FasTrack. As you know, FasTrack connects with pins and the sections lock together. The track stays together in perfect alignment. The switch tracks are reliable but fairly expensive.

The shortcomings of Realtrax are the way it goes together. There are no pins to align the rails and you can get minor misalignments. The electrical connection from section to section is by shaped sheet metal tabs under the track. I think they are copper tabs but I'm not sure. The problem with the tabs is that they can bend and break if the track is taken apart and reassembled frequently. I don't have any of the switches but I have heard they aren't as good as FasTrack.

I used Realtrax for the oval on the upper level of my current layout because I had it. It's OK but there is a slight misalignment of the rails that is annoying though the trains run on it just fine.

Some guys have built large layouts that operate reliably so I'm sure it's fine and you can save money. I used FasTrack because I think it's worth the extra expense.


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## Frank6791

I heard real trax was not the way to go because of what you said. Connection issues. Joe as always thanks for your opinion.


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## DennyM

The main issue I have with fastrack is the price of their remote switches.


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## DennyM

callmeIshmael2 said:


> I think it's time to set up Frank with his own 'Questions That Bring Only More Questions' column, lol. Frank, seriously, pls. show us all what you have to work with so far - that might help some of the real forum experts to help you find your direction...





Lee Willis said:


> I agree!!! Frank, for the longest time I was convinced you were not a real person but a bot. The lack of specificity and photos seemed to indicate that. callmeIshmael2 has a good suggestion. Get more detailed info into your posts, and my strongest suggestion is to learn how to post photos (it is easy) to show particular things. This will reward you with more specific and thorough information to help you get what you want from model railroading. As general, unspecific questions and you get fuzzy, unspecific answers. Show picture and give details and your get detailed advice that fits your needs.


I have to agree. You started this thread back in July and I haven't seen any indication that you are building your layout. Questions are fine and we can help you, but I'm not seeing any progress.


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## Guest

The FasTrack switches are expensive, Denny. Do you have Realtrax on your layout? If so, how are the switches? I've heard that they aren't very good but don't have any. I think that if you build a layout with Realtrax and don't take it apart and reassemble it repeatedly its probably as good as any other track.


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## DennyM

Joe, I have Fastrack mainly because of it's availability. I have only had to replace one switch (I have three on the layout) over the years and I had to do some minor adjustments. Other than that I haven't had any problems. Plus I got all the switches at a discount.


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## Guest

Thanks Denny. You're right, FasTrack is more available than any other track. Just about every hobby store that sells O gauge has FasTrack.


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## Frank6791

Joe, I will try to post pictures of my current layout this week. It's not a big deal but people keep asking to see my layout.


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## Mark Boyce

Frank, I am just joining in on this conversation. I have skimmed through some of the questions and answers, but only a handful of pages. As you can see, the folks here are ready to help a newcomer. You also see there are different ways you can go with just about everything, and they are personal preference. I'll look forward to seeing a few photographs of what you have right now. As they say, pictures are worth a thousand words. That will help everyone in helping you!

When I saw on page one, that you live in Pennsylvania, I was hoping you were in Western Pennsylvania (I am 40 miles north of Pittsburgh), but seeing where you are in the East, you already know you have some great folks here in your area. I made the 6+ hour trip to the first North Penn Run For Fun two years ago and met some of these guys face to face. You have some great guys in your area. I'm glad you are online with everyone here!!


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## Frank6791

Mark, I never heard of butler PA. What county is that. I live in Delaware county PA. Thanks for the welcome.


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## gunrunnerjohn




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## Mark Boyce

Hey John, That's me!! I live just barely south of town. I can hear the B&LE and B&P trains down in the valley from my house on very high ground.


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## Mark Boyce

Frank6791 said:


> Mark, I never heard of butler PA. What county is that. I live in Delaware county PA. Thanks for the welcome.


Butler is the county seat of Butler County. Due north of Pittsburgh exactly halfway between the West Virginia and New York borders. You're welcome!

I was in Delaware County once, about 30 years ago, visiting my wife's college friend.


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## Frank6791

Mark, hi this is Frank. Are you a conventional guy or do you use remote control. Let me know what you have and what you use. Thanks.


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## Mark Boyce

Frank, I have virtually switched from conventional to command. I have a couple of conventional engines I run at Christmas (Lionel Polar Express and North Pole Express) and a couple others I won't part with. I have a couple conventional engines I still want to sell. Now I mostly have MTH DCS controlled and Lionel TMCC and as of last week a new Legacy controller. After running trains in HO, N, and O gauge since I was about 12, I was blown away with the realistic sounds, lights, and slow speed controll of the MTH DCS system. I walked out of Mercer Junction Train Shoppe in Mercer, Pennsylvania with a starter set 5 years ago. Since then I have purchased about 10 MTH engines, all but one used. I also have two used Lionel TMCC and two used Legacy engines. I have only explored the basic operating functions of the systems, but with retirement coming shortly, I anticipate being able to delve into the systems more.


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## highvoltage

callmeIshmael2 said:


> I think it's time to set up Frank with his own 'Questions That Bring Only More Questions' column, lol. Frank, seriously, pls. show us all what you have to work with so far - that might help some of the real forum experts to help you find your direction...


Guess we'll never know.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Frank, how is everything going?


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## Guest

Chiefmcfuz said:


> Frank, how is everything going?


Frank, we haven't heard from you for a while. Are you working on your layout?


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## Frank6791

Does mth buildings have to be wired up or they have plugs on the end. Thanks.


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## Chiefmcfuz

Mostly wired.


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