# What's wrong with my loco and how can I fix it?



## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

I just picked up a Williams 4400 sharknose desil loco at a local train expo it's all brass body and a nice looking engine. But when I run it on my fastrack layout it does some strange stuff. First off the contact rollers spark all the way around the track, I just cleans the track and the rollers are clean too, also it seams like they aren't making contact all the tame either cuz the train will start and stop on its own and when it stops it stops fast causing some of my cars to derail. I don't think it's the transformer or the track both are only 2 years old, fastrack and a cw-80 transformer, wen it runs right it runs like a champ (save for the constant sparking) it can pull my 13 cars like they aren't even there. The light in the cab of the loco also flickers a lot which is what leaves me to believe its not making contact very well because my lighted coboose is on steady. It seems like the springs in the contact roller are looser than they should be and one has slipped off the rail and scraped the side of the rail. Is there anything I can do to make tis run better or did I get ripped off for $175


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Here is a picture of the contact roller. I am nearly touching it and its flopping to the side like that not sure if that's normal or not


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't know, but the gears sure look dry.
What year is it? 
A newer one?


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm not sure what year it it but I think it's older, it doest have any sounds and the light in the cab is an incandescent bulb like a nightlight bulb, the instructions that came with it liked aged San said te train was equipped with the "new" Williams reverse unit so I'm gona guess some time in the 70s but I don't know for sure


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Might be a wire loose inside making it short out?

Pop the shell off and take a look, add some oil while your there.
The gears on the underside look dryer then dry.

Can't be but a couple of screws holding it on?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Alundrell said:


> Here is a picture of the contact roller. I am nearly touching it and its flopping to the side like that not sure if that's normal or not


As long as it is straight when you're not poking it, it's probably fine. They do have a pretty light spring and you can push them around quite a bit, but they should return to the center.

Ed is right, you need to lube the gears.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

What kind of oil should I use, I have mineral oil will that work?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use plain old 10-30 motor oil, comes highly recommended and works great for me.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Not too much oil a few drops in the right place go a long way, I use 5/20 weight.
Did you pop the shell off?


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

I have that thanks gunrunnerjohn. What about the contacts slipping off the rail that's what it seams like is happening, I have O-36 fastrack and its O-31 also it really doest like the fastrack switch at all it stutters when it goes over it which sometimes causes cars to derail I that happening cuz the contacts aren't both touching the track at the same time?


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Just did here is what it looked like it looks good but I don't know what I'm looking at


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, before I'd indite the contacts, I'd clean the wheels and pickups thoroughly, as well as the track. 

If it's happening just on switches, welcome to the club.  I have Fastrack O36 and O72 switches, and some locomotives don't like one or both of them. My usual fix is to try to either change the spacing of the pickups (longer ones), or for steamers and A-A consists, I put a roller on the non-powered unit and spread the power around.

The rollers to flop around pretty freely, but unless something is bent or the roller is dragging (not spinning freely), they don't normally fall off the rail.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You have the original Williams reverse unit. It's a basic electronic E-Unit, perfectly functional for conventional operation. Obviously, no sound...


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Thanks again gunrunnerjohn it does look like te spring in the one contact is messed up and it doest spring back when it noes to the one side how can I replace that spring, it spent look obvious to me


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

You say the lights flicker, check the wire down by the bulb, it is not rubbed through anywhere is it?
Some engines will not even run if the bulb goes bad.
I am not to familiar with Williams.

Check make sure all is well around the bulb socket while your in there, bulb is tight?

The inside looks new.:thumbsup:


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Bulb looks good, it's nice and tight in the socket and the wire is undamaged


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Try running it without the shell while it is off, it's probably the pickup roller like your thinking. 

But as long as it is off I would try it to see if anything is going on inside...as long as it is off. Can't hurt anything.
It looks like new in there. 

John, do they take a small drop of oil on top of the motors in the center?


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok I fixed the spring , and now what it's doing is just starting and stoping on its own, what could cause that, my other loco doesn't do that, and its the cheep pensy flyer


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Maybe it is the electronic unit, gunrunner might be able to tell you how to test it with a multimeter. Do you have one of those?

That is why I like post war stuff, no electronics to go bad.

John might be getting his beauty sleep by now.

Did you try it without the shell on?


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Didn't run without shell I had it on when I read your post I don't have a multimeter but they are cheep enough going to take it to my local train shop and see what they say, thanks everyone for all your help you guys are great!


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm thinking it is the e-unit and I agree with you that post war stuff is good, my mom has an original lionel pink lady from the 1950s and it still runs like a champ lol


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

It is normal for the rollers to spark. However, if the sparking is excessive, it indicates that the loco is pulling too much current. Looking at your picture, I don't see any oil on the gears, etc. Use 5W-20 or 5W-30 motor oil to lube the loco. Don't use grease, Lionel Lube, 3 in 1 oil, etc., as they will dry our and turn gummy or turn to concrete. Motor oil never dries out.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow does she have the whole train?

Very desirable to the right collector.
Even more so if she has all the boxes.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

I think she has the big box it all came in but not sure about the individual cars, she does have all the cars however the purple hopper car has a crack in the side cus one of our neighbors kids knelt on it like 18 years ago other than that its in perfect condition


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Alundrell said:


> I think she has the big box it all came in but not sure about the individual cars, she does have all the cars however the purple hopper car has a crack in the side cus one of our neighbors kids knelt on it like 18 years ago other than that its in perfect condition


That is the master box all depends on it's shape it might bring a good buck.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Oh really??? I will have to look into that


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok we'll to change the subject, me and my dad just ordered this
http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200509271
We just got fed up with this other engine, I mean it looks great but it doesn't work,
Any hoo I was looking on line and I found out that the E-7 model was a passenger locomotive and the similar F-7 was for freight, now I'm wondering what the difference between the two are, from all the pictures I saw they look the same to me. The train I want to pull is a Hershey freight train (hence all the chocolate brown PA engines lol) will the E-7 "fit" that? Would it also pull freight or was it solely passenger or am I just really way over thinking this lol


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Alundrell said:


> Ok we'll to change the subject, me and my dad just ordered this
> http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200509271
> We just got fed up with this other engine, I mean it looks great but it doesn't work,
> Any hoo I was looking on line and I found out that the E-7 model was a passenger locomotive and the similar F-7 was for freight, now I'm wondering what the difference between the two are, from all the pictures I saw they look the same to me. The train I want to pull is a Hershey freight train (hence all the chocolate brown PA engines lol) will the E-7 "fit" that? Would it also pull freight or was it solely passenger or am I just really way over thinking this lol


 
The F7 was just a newer locomotive.
I run what I want, it is your RR buy what you like.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I doubt the reverse unit is bad, they actually are pretty bulletproof unless you have a short and smoke them.

I'm guessing you still have a loose connection. Top suspect is the wires from the pickups or the ground wire from the trucks. I see they soldered to the motor frame for the truck ground, make sure the large screw in the bottom of the truck is secure, it's the only thing that holds the motors on.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

All the screws are fine, the symptom is that it will go around the track fine for like 5-6 times, it's only a 4x8 oval, and just when you think it's running good it will stop on you. It seams like when it warms up it starts to act wierd.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

big ed said:


> The F7 was just a newer locomotive.
> I run what I want, it is your RR buy what you like.


Ok that makes me feel better thanks Ed


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

When it stops, are the lights still on? What do you do to get it running again?


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

The lights on the engine shut off but my spotlight car and my caboose are still lit so it's not the strasformer, pluss my 0-8-0 steamer runs fine. 
To get it started again I do a number of things, sometime it starts back up on it's own, sometimes, if I hit the direction button on my transformer it will start again, so sometimes just turning the power down and then bringing it back up will get it running again. But once it starts to do thi it doest stop until you let it rest for a while and it cools down. Then it's good for a few laps.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I have to say, that does kinda' sound like the reverse board. The only other option is some connection that's opening up, but the cooling down sounds electronic.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

It's so wierd I wish I could post a video for you guys, but it wil go around like 5 time then start and stop in short bursts then go back on and go around a few time, wash rinse repeat. I ran it with the shell off and it looks fine, the bulb stays on when it starts and stopped most of the time, the only time it went off was when it stopped right over the switch. So I'm getting the feeling it's the reverse board too, can that be fixed or will I need to replace it, if it need to be replaced can it be... Upgraded?!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The reverse board is a simple item, and you can readily get them for very little money. I've sold a number I've had from upgrades in the $10-15 range. I may have one just like the one in there, I'll have to check. There are only four wires to them as a rule, power, ground, and the two motor wires. The motors are wired in parallel.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

That would be cool if you did thanks John. If I did want to upgrade the board and put something with sound in it what would I want to get. Keep in mind I don't have anything fancy just a CW-80 so It's not dcc or legacy or anything like that


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Most likely there is a bad solder joint somewhere. Check the solder joints on the pickup rollers. 

Sometimes the way to fix a problem like this is to resolder all the joints on the board. You would need a good soldering station for this.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you want sound for conventional, you will need to specify how much sound you want. The horn/bell is probably solved using a Williams TrueBlast II sound kit, if you want prime mover sounds as well, that's a bit more expensive. The way I know of is the RailSounds kit, that's $85.

See how you make out getting the board to run, and if you can't get it going, let me know and I'll make you a good deal on a replacement. I have the same board, I'll put it on the bench and make sure it didn't die in the parts box if you want it.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

I just read this on a different forum "Also you will need a newer transformer like the Z-750 or the Z-1000 by MTH, oran Atlas transformer,that have both horn and bell buttons. Do not use a CW-80 with a Williams engine that has True Blast 2 horn as it may cause the engine and horn unitto act up." Is that true all I have is a CW-80 could they be incompatible, pluss my dad just ordered a new engine with trueblast 2 will that cause a problem


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

@ John all I would want is a horn and bell I don't need the rail sound kit, if I did want to put true blast in the older engine would I need a newer circuit boar that is compatable wit te true blast? If I can't get my board to work I will take you up on your offer unless I need a new one to add sound thanks again for all your help with this


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes, the TrueBlast II and the CW-80 are problematic.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Lol so now I need to get a new transformer to run the new train we got (sigh) could that be what is going on the the other train, te cw-80 is causing problems? What kind of transformer would work with trueblast II? I don't want to spend too much but I want something decent


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

So what kind of problems does mixing a CW-80 and trueblast 2 cause? Can't really find anything about it online


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The CW-80 is problematic for a number of locomotives. You can have it either not blow the horn, or at some power settings, you can get random horn or bell activation without commanding them. MTH specifically says that the CW-80 is not compatible with their electronics, for instance.

There are many other transformers, one issue with older PW transformers is they lack a bell button. You can add a sound activation button or look for one of the MRC or MTH transformers from the modern era.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok so the train will run on a cw-80 but the hoe and bell either may not work or will work when I don't want them to? The circuits won't fry will they? As for te transformer I was thinking of a MTH Z1000 ,it's a little more powerful than the cw-80 if I have to get a new one might as well upgrade a little, will that one work with trueblast 2 and is it a good transformer?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It won't fry anything, just sometimes the the whistle or bell will take off on it's own, or not work at all.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Oh ok cool thanks John, so if I do get a new transformer, which one should I get I don't know anything about them,


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I'd take a look around and see if you find one that looks good at a price you want to pay. Let us know what you find before the purchase, and we'll let you know what you think. If I recommend one or two, you're likely to spend far too much when a cheaper alternative is available.

I'd be looking for 125-150 watts at least to allow for a little expansion.  Of course, you can keep the CW-80 around to run accessories as well.


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok cool ill keep that in mind when I look thanks for everything John!!


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## Alundrell (Oct 22, 2012)

So I just con the new E-7 I ordered today, and I see what you Mean about the trueblast 2 and the cw-80. Sometimes the horn works sometimes it doesn't and the bell will just go off on its own. However that train has so much power it's rediculas. It pulls my 14 cars like they don't exist. It goes fastener at 50% than my little 0-8-0 steamer does at full blast. Now I just need a new transformer I fount a z1000 for $85 online

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200303521

I also found an MRC pure power duel for $256 it's a little out of my price range at the moment but May be able to save up. If you can suggest any others that would be cool

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200303649


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I'm not much of a fan of the MTH lower end transformers, they also put out a chopped sine wave that is an issue with some locomotives.

If you consider something like the Z1000, see if you can find someone locally that uses them and test your engine for compatibility. I had the MTH IR remote with the Z1000 brick, and it drove several electronic locomotives nuts.

The MRC Pure Power is nice transformer, and it would certainly do the trick. As you say, it's a bit expensive.


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