# why do the little painted people cost so much?



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I went to the local hobby shop today and picked up a few more cars. I was checking out the N scale painted people and a box of six was about ~$14.

I will grant that it takes some care to paint the little buggers, but as with almost everything else, they are made in China. Now, given the low cost of manufacturing and low wages, why is this product so expensive? I'm thinking give me a bag of 25 for $10. Is this some kind of racket like eye glass frames? I can't buy for a minute that it costs much to have a factory painting little people. Heck you don't even need a factory. I mean you could do it on a dirt floor with a small table and a 10 jars of paint, Come on.


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

Labor intense...gotta cover the cost. Paint your own and save a bundle...:thumbsup:










...they look better too....


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

shaygetz said:


> Labor intense...gotta cover the cost.


But, but, but ... labor is cheap in China, very cheap - that's why U.S. companies are moving production there. So, if labor is in fact so cheap in China (that's where these models I was looking at were produced) - isn't there a case for extreme price inflation for these models? That's what it seems like to me. We're not talking about assembling 60 " flat screen TV's that have to survive a warranty period - it's just a small painted model that has no exacting technical requirements and can't "fail" and stop working.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Wait your in Texas, I'm a former Arizonan, you have enough of the south of the border labor to choke on.
So business opportunity for you! Buy a bunch of naked peps and get them painted up by your south of the border folks, there labor is about as cheap as china's and make your self a ton of coin!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## shaygetz (Sep 23, 2007)

xrunner said:


> But, but, but ... labor is cheap in China, very cheap - that's why U.S. companies are moving production there.


Gotta pay for those 4 new aircraft carriers somehow...


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> Wait your in Texas, I'm a former Arizonan, you have enough of the south of the border labor to choke on.
> So business opportunity for you! Buy a bunch of naked peps and get them painted up by your south of the border folks, there labor is about as cheap as china's and make your self a ton of coin!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Oh I don't want to get rich off it. I'd want to turn it into good paying lifetime American jobs with health care and a pension.

Oh wait - sorry - I've been watching too many Leave It To Beaver reruns. My bad!


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Now that's is too funny! :laugh::appl::laugh:


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Ok no way in the world if I am that small guy would I be useing a pushmower
with all those tractors on hand. Someone give him a small painted bellymower
for one of those tractors.

Pookybear


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

xrunner said:


> why do the little painted people cost so much?


They're all Unionized. Damn labor contracts ...


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Hmmm I have 2 kids that love to paint and I can pay them in gummi bears... I may have just stumbled on a gold mine here! Build a DIY injection molder, make some peeps and have my kids paint them!!

Massey


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

On EBay there are often bulk packages of people for much less. I do have to repaint some but it is cheaper.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I can't say I know the answer, but I can point out one reason. The store has to make money, and shelf space is sort of like rental property: it requires regular return on investment, or you get rid of it. Some items, like canned beans, make a minimal profit but, you turn so many of them, it adds up to a good investment. Your people are at the opposite extreme. There's a limited pool of buyers for your N scale peeps: you may be the only buyer, this month. You'll probably buy no more than 2 or three sets in your lifetime. To pay the rent on the shelf space for an item that sells once a month, they have to collect that months rent in one sale, from one customer.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

They get that much cause people buy them, if no one bought them the price would surly come down. But there are always buyers.


I bought 50 N people off this seller and 100 cars. Cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300-pcs-N-scale-Painted-People-passengers-19-styles-/400131934252?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d29b8c82c
Cars are OK for a parking lot to fill up.

The people are OK but they all look oriental.:laugh:

I see now they do have some white folk now.

As far as shipping to you they are excellent shippers.:thumbsup:
I got them faster from them then some people that are shipping to me from a neighboring state.
They are honest too.:laugh:

I look for cast or pewter in O gauge. I have gotten some very good deals too, but I look and watch and then I snipe them.
Or I look for lots of people, some need a little paint because they are weathered from age.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> I bought 50 N people off this seller and 100 cars. Cheap.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300-pcs-N-scale-Painted-People-passengers-19-styles-/400131934252?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d29b8c82c


I can't get to your link, all I get is this message -

*The page isn't redirecting properly

Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.*

Can you tell me the name of the seller so I can find them another way? I did search for N scale peeps and found 100 for $8.95 from some group called

"WeHonest" - a little cheesy sounding but whatever - $8.95/100 is more like it anyway. :thumbsup:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

xrunner said:


> I can't get to your link, all I get is this message -
> 
> *The page isn't redirecting properly
> 
> ...



That is them, check out their other items for sale as sometimes they have a 100 for say $8.95 and free shipping then they have the same thing for $6.95 ,free ship I don't know why they do that.

There are others with different names I think they are the same family selling the same thing.

Like I said last year I got 50 people and the 100 cars for I think it was around $9.00 free shipping. Edit, Mine was an auction and no one but me bid.  And I got them fast. Now I see they expanded to make some non oriental folks.
I even sent them a question back when I got them, suggesting a more American type looking people.

Maybe they took my advice?

Cars are great for filling a parking lot up if you have one.
People are good for say a circus tent scene, and now they have some that don't look oriental to make your scene more Americanized.:thumbsup:

You can't beat the price.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> That is them, check out their other items for sale as sometimes they have a 100 for say $8.95 and free shipping then they have the same thing for $6.95 ,free ship I don't know why they do that.
> 
> You can't beat the price.


Wow - I see 200 peeps for $15? Maybe I'll just go nuts and get that package. Now we're talkin!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

xrunner said:


> Wow - I see 200 peeps for $15? Maybe I'll just go nuts and get that package. Now we're talkin!



In N they are so small you can hardly even see them anyway.:laugh:

I need tweezers to handle them! And a magnifying glass to place them.

Don't sneeze on the pile you will never find all of them.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I ordered 50 cars, 100 peeps, 90 trees, and 5 R/G LED signal lights - all for $60!

Hooray for China!

Oh did I just say that? hwell:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

xrunner said:


> I ordered 50 cars, 100 peeps, 90 trees, and 5 R/G LED signal lights - all for $60!
> 
> Hooray for China!
> 
> Oh did I just say that? hwell:



The trees I heard are not the best. 
It is not how they are made but the color.
Somewhere on a site (not here) someone demonstrated how to dip the tress into a paint wash mixture to get the color tone better.

Maybe they improved on them some since then.
Which people did you get? Are they all oriental looking? 

I hope they are to your liking when you get them.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> The trees I heard are not the best.
> It is not how they are made but the color.
> Somewhere on a site (not here) someone demonstrated how to dip the tress into a paint wash mixture to get the color tone better.
> 
> Maybe they improved on them some since then.


OK, I'll fix them if they are a little "off". For the price I'd be willing to adjust the color.



> Which people did you get? Are they all oriental looking?
> 
> I hope they are to your liking when you get them.


Hmm ... I can't see any ethnic hints from the pic I saw here -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400097659942?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648

What about them makes them look oriental to you? I can't imagine such a small painted person looking like any particular race except for maybe skin coloring.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

xrunner said:


> OK, I'll fix them if they are a little "off". For the price I'd be willing to adjust the color.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I looked for mine but they are packed away and I don't want to go through all my stuff as I have everything neat in the dungeon up on pallets.
After Irene blows by I will look and take pictures to show you what I got.

Clearly mine are Oriental people. Yes even though they are small you can see.

The ones you got look different then mine.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> Like I said last year I got 50 people and the 100 cars for I think it was around $9.00 free shipping. Edit, Mine was an auction and no one but me bid.  And I got them fast.


I'm curious as to how fast I'll get my order. Their Ebay store says that it ships from China, China ... 

If you got yours fast they must have been shipped from inside CONUS.


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## tkruger (Jan 18, 2009)

big ed said:


> The trees I heard are not the best.
> It is not how they are made but the color.
> Somewhere on a site (not here) someone demonstrated how to dip the tress into a paint wash mixture to get the color tone better.
> 
> ...


I have received purchased their HO and O trees in the past. I bought the darker green ones. The color was OK. when mixed in with other trees they look good. The biggest issue is that they look to identical to each other. I only model HO but bought the O scale also just to have larger trees, After all some tress do get bigger.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Pete V said:


> ***************
> I regularly bring electrical heaters from China and occasionally glass processing equipment both large and small. It is actually really fast. Everything comes air freight for distribution in the States. My stuff that has to clear customs needs a broker and that can in fact be pricey for small orders. I don't think that applies to train stuff though. It's interesting seeing what has perceived value. My crates for the heater elements are solid Mahogany.



Do you keep the wood and recycle it?
How big are they?
Make a nice shelf out of them?:thumbsup:


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

At least you are recycling them as strawberry pots!! I love strawberries!!

Massey


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## jzrouterman (Nov 27, 2010)

xrunner said:


> I went to the local hobby shop today and picked up a few more cars. I was checking out the N scale painted people and a box of six was about ~$14.
> 
> Now, given the low cost of manufacturing and low wages, why is this product so expensive?


Well without boring you and everyone else here about the whole marketing process, I'll just name a couple of reasons. Shipping. How much do you think Diesel for a ship from China to here is going to run? Somebody's got to pay for that. Then both the dealer here and then the hobbyshop has got to make something as well. 

Though it can be a real pain, painting them youself can save you a bundle. 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Model-Power-5772-HO-Figures-Unpainted-72-p/mdp-5772.htm

Going by what you paid for 6 people, 72 people would set you back at around $168. But 72 unpainted people, the paint, can of thinner, a special holder of the people and the shipping charges would still come out costing less than what it would cost to buy the same amount of people already painted. Besides, most "already" painted figures look phoney, as they SHINE.

Routerman


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

jzrouterman said:


> Well without boring you and everyone else here about the whole marketing process, I'll just name a couple of reasons. Shipping. How much do you think Diesel for a ship from China to here is going to run? Somebody's got to pay for that. Then both the dealer here and then the hobbyshop has got to make something as well.


Have you read the whole thread? After Big Ed told be about where to buy them on Ebay, I bought 100 _painted_ people - N scale - _*shipped from China*_, for $8.35 + $3 shipping. That's some pretty cheap diesel fuel (except it's probably not getting here on a boat). They even offer 200 painted people _shipped from China_ for $15 + shipping!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200-pcs-N-s...883140?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3cb70961c4

I got them for about 12 cents/person. If the hobby shop sells say 6 for $10 (let's be generous - they really charge more) then they are charging $1.67/person. The dollar markup (assuming they can get the same price I can) is $1.55. The percent markup based on cost is is 1.55/.12 = 12,900% markup - notice that's _twelve thousand nine hundred percent_, not 12.9 percent.

So I'm afraid your analysis doesn't seen to hold up based on the calculated markup. If the markup in the hobby shop business is over 12,000%, I'm in the wrong business. And as soon as everyone wanting N scale painted people knows how to get them for 12 cents/person, the hobby shop will be out of the business of selling them.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

The figures at those prices will not be nearly as nice as the Woodland Scenic figures (just a hunch)

All businesses try to maximize their profit - those in China are no different and have a distinct advantage with their cheap labor and tightly controlled currency.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> The figures at those prices will not be nearly as nice as the Woodland Scenic figures (just a hunch)


Out of curiosity I'd be interested in where the Woodland Scenics people were manufactured/painted. Do you happen to know.



> All businesses try to maximize their profit - those in China are no different and have a distinct advantage with their cheap labor and tightly controlled currency.


That's why we are losing countless jobs and factories to China. The question is - what are we going to do about it?


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## buffalowings (Aug 29, 2011)

xrunner said:


> Have you read the whole thread? After Big Ed told be about where to buy them on Ebay, I bought 100 _painted_ people - N scale - _*shipped from China*_, for $8.35 + $3 shipping. That's some pretty cheap diesel fuel (except it's probably not getting here on a boat). They even offer 200 painted people _shipped from China_ for $15 + shipping!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200-pcs-N-s...883140?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3cb70961c4
> 
> ...



occasional blue blotches...lol I think i'll try my hand at handpainting instead


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

buffalowings said:


> occasional blue blotches...lol I think i'll try my hand at handpainting instead


Good idea - maybe you can undercut the Chinese. If you live in the USA you should be able to cut shipping costs too. Remember - your markup should be in the 10,000 - 15,000 percent range. That's about standard for little painted people.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

xrunner said:


> Out of curiosity I'd be interested in where the Woodland Scenics people were manufactured/painted. Do you happen to know.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why we are losing countless jobs and factories to China. The question is - what are we going to do about it?


We as Americans need to be willing to pay more for American products rather than look for the cheapest deal. How many times have you seen posts on here looking for the "best deal" or the "cheapest option" Stop buying foreign products (Japanese cars, Chinese imported stuff, etc.)

Raw materials (plastic, steel, etc) are all traded as global commodities and as such the cost is constant regardless of country of manufacture. That leaves overhead, labor and shipping as the variables. Labor is cheap and you can pack a buttload of train stuff into a 40' sea crate. Overhead is also cheap in China as they tightly control their power grid and really don't care too much about the environment. (Massive pollution in China.)

The Woodland Scenics figures are also probably made in China, but it seems like they do a more careful job in painting them (compare the ebay figure pics to those at the Woodland Scenics website - WS figures seem to use more colors and also seem to have better definition in the details.)

You can buy bulk packs of painted figures 100 pcs for $124 ($1.24/ea) Let's ignore molding costs (very low) and focus on the paint. How long do you think it takes to paint one of these? 10 minutes? Let's assume 10 min (multiple colors, needs to dry a little between coats. That's 6 figures/hour. If you paid your people $12/hour, that would be $2/figure alone in labor just to paint the figures. You simply can't produce these at a competitive price to those made in China with labor rates of $200/week. (pretty typical). If people aren't willing to pay the premium, then the company can either choose to close up shop, or move mfg to China.

It's really simple economics.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> We as Americans need to be willing to pay more for American products rather than look for the cheapest deal. How many times have you seen posts on here looking for the "best deal" or the "cheapest option" Stop buying foreign products (Japanese cars, Chinese imported stuff, etc.)
> 
> Raw materials (plastic, steel, etc) are all traded as global commodities and as such the cost is constant regardless of country of manufacture. That leaves overhead, labor and shipping as the variables. Labor is cheap and you can pack a buttload of train stuff into a 40' sea crate. Overhead is also cheap in China as they tightly control their power grid and really don't care too much about the environment. (Massive pollution in China.)


This is an interesting conversation. I would be willing to pay a little more for made in USA if - if - if - the price difference isn't exorbitant. The price difference of the figures is exorbitant (IMHO) even thought the woodland figures have more detail (they don't have any eyes though for all the detail 



> The Woodland Scenics figures are also probably made in China, but it seems like they do a more careful job in painting them (compare the ebay figure pics to those at the Woodland Scenics website - WS figures seem to use more colors and also seem to have better definition in the details.)


Agreed - but, the layout isn't about the little people, it's built for the trains. I don't plan on looking at the layout with a magnifying glass, so I honestly don't see the point of the detailing _beyond a certain point_. The little people add a suggestion of reality - that's why I and others use them, but nobody I know of thinks a model scene is going to reflect real-word accuracy. If you look at any layout with a magnifying glass to the point that you see the "defects" of the little people, _then you will also see defects in everything on the layout_ - because everything is a model of the real thing. IMHO, the detailing of the $9/100 people is good enough for the job at hand. Plus if it's good enough for Big Ed it's good enough for me. 



> You can buy bulk packs of painted figures 100 pcs for $124 ($1.24/ea) Let's ignore molding costs (very low) and focus on the paint. How long do you think it takes to paint one of these? 10 minutes? Let's assume 10 min (multiple colors, needs to dry a little between coats. That's 6 figures/hour. If you paid your people $12/hour, that would be $2/figure alone in labor just to paint the figures. You simply can't produce these at a competitive price to those made in China with labor rates of $200/week. (pretty typical). If people aren't willing to pay the premium, then the company can either choose to close up shop, or move mfg to China.
> 
> It's really simple economics.


Yea I agree, that's paying US workers. But why do you think the worker is getting paid $12/hour for that job even here? There are starving artists that could easily do it for minimum wage because they need the money, so I don't necessarily agree with your wage of $12/hour. 
Like I said, give me a choice of equal quality made in USA at a reasonable higher price and I'll buy it. I won't buy it if it's an order of magnitude difference in price.

Like my last analogy in another thread - this isn't the world of Leave it to Beaver anymore. It's a world wide economy and there's no turning back. That's reality.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Can you make a living on minimum wage? I'd like to think that we should pay Americans better than minimum wage so that they can get somewhere in life, save for retirement and do well in this world. I personally hate the idea of people working, yet still starving - how about you?

Minimum wage gets you nowhere.

Interesting that you say you want to buy American product, but then your comments would indicate you would do so only if the people here in the US are making minimum wage (or less.) 

What's reasonable? Even at minimum wage of (not even sure what it is now - I'll guess $8) - you're looking at $1.50/figure, just for painting the figure.

It really comes down to how fast can they be painted and how much are you willing to pay people to do the work...Robots can't do this.

When you buy from a larger company vs some internet guy, the product tends to be better regulated as well (no lead in the paint, etc.) True, but not always guaranteed.

I'll buy the unpainted figures (only labor cost is a guy running a molding machine spitting out a couple hundred figures on each pour in the mold) and paint them myself rather than support slave labor rate wages in China. 

I agree it's a global marketplace, but we as Americans need to protect our interests and should make it a priority to secure manufacturing in this country (remember - mfg won WWII - the enemy had better weapons, we just had more of them....they'd destroy our tanks at a 3:1 rate, but we outbuilt them 10:1. Without manufacturing in this country - we are truly lost. It is possible to turn back, but people need to be willing to pay more for domestic products (significantly more for products produced here vs China.....)

For reference - In 2008 - Chinese labor averaged $1.36/hour.....i.e. the minimum wage ($8) in this country is 5.8x higher than the average wage in China. If you get out into the villiage labor pools - you're looking at $0.82/hour.....the high end jobs pay $2.38/hour

http://www.bls.gov/fls/china.htm

Again....what would be REASONABLE to you?


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> Can you make a living on minimum wage?


No.



> I'd like to think that we should pay Americans better than minimum wage so that they can get somewhere in life, save for retirement and do well in this world. I personally hate the idea of people working, yet still starving - how about you?
> 
> Minimum wage gets you nowhere.


But how much should the minimum wage be, and how would you pass it through Congress? What would you do with the people who were laid off when the companies now paying minimum wage can't support all their workers when wages by law must increase? What about health care costs, benefits and so on? Is it all to be legislated?



> Interesting that you say you want to buy American product, but then your comments would indicate you would do so only if the people here in the US are making minimum wage (or less.)
> 
> What's reasonable? Even at minimum wage of (not even sure what it is now - I'll guess $8) - you're looking at $1.50/figure, just for painting the figure. It really comes down to how fast can they be painted and how much are you willing to pay people to do the work...Robots can't do this.


You keep arguing about the price of the figures painted in the US - it is what it is, but it's not competitive in a world-wide market. Do you believe in competition or artificial price controls? What's reasonable is driven mainly by the market. It's a worldwide market - you can't change that. So by definition the price of the Chinese people is reasonable. If it wasn't, they would sell them for the price they are offering in a _world-wide market_. Nevertheless I said I would pay maybe 10 - 20 % more for made in USA - not orders of magnitude more.



> When you buy from a larger company vs some internet guy, the product tends to be better regulated as well (no lead in the paint, etc.) True, but not always guaranteed.


Maybe, but it depends on the source.



> I'll buy the unpainted figures (only labor cost is a guy running a molding machine spitting out a couple hundred figures on each pour in the mold) and paint them myself rather than support slave labor rate wages in China.


OK.



> I agree it's a global marketplace, but we as Americans need to protect our interests and should make it a priority to secure manufacturing in this country (remember - mfg won WWII - the enemy had better weapons, we just had more of them....they'd destroy our tanks at a 3:1 rate, but we outbuilt them 10:1. Without manufacturing in this country - we are truly lost. It is possible to turn back, but people need to be willing to pay more for domestic products (significantly more for products produced here vs China.....)
> 
> For reference - In 2008 - Chinese labor averaged $1.36/hour.....i.e. the minimum wage ($8) in this country is 5.8x higher than the average wage in China. If you get out into the villiage labor pools - you're looking at $0.82/hour.....the high end jobs pay $2.38/hour
> 
> ...


The question is too vague. It depends on the product, how many suppliers there are, where the suppliers are located, what the benefits of each company is, how much of the production is automated, what the profits of the company are, what the costs of materials is... and on and on. 

And it's all a matter of the laws. What regulations are you going to pass through the Congress to get your vision in motion? Do you want tariffs in place to pump up the price of imported goods?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Yes....tariffs on imported goods would be great. That's precisely what the japanese, Chinese and Koreans do to US goods.

They can ship all they want here, but we can't ship goods there. (For example, labor in Japan is about on par with US labor rates, but because they have such protectionist policies on imports, US products don't get sold there in high numbers.)

If minimum wage went up, the cost of everything would go up and people would need to be willing to pay more. It wouldn't put companies out of business if the trade policies supported the higher wages. Remove the benefit of the cheaper labor and mfg will follow.

If the world were truly a "free trade" market, then any product from any country could be sold anywhere. That simply isn't the case. We have very open borders to imports, other countries do not. When those other countries tariff our goods making them non-competitive on their soil, we should respond in kind.

You're the one that posed this questions "That's why we are losing countless jobs and factories to China. The question is - what are we going to do about it?" Sounds like you're not willing to do anything about it.

If the only variables are labor and shipping and you're only willing to pay 20% more for American goods, that means (if you take the HIGH labor rate in China) - you're willing to pay US workers less than $3/hour to make these things. Glad I'm not working for you.

I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, just pointing out the 2-sidedness of your viewpoint. You want them made here, but aren't willing to pay for them. THAT is precisely why mfg has gone overseas. The inability of Americans to understand what their purchasing decisions do to the decisions made at companies striving to stay alive. Compete or die.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

I've only been playing around with the hobby since January. When it came time to put some "people" on my layout I visited the LHS to purchase a bunch of them and just about passed out when I saw the prices!  No way, Jose!!
I then found some bulk bags of 100 pieces from China on eBay for $6 or $7, with FREE SHIPPING. They arrived in about 10 days and I was pleasantly surprised at the quality. NO, they weren't as good as the top shelf "people" at the LHS, but plenty good enough for me. As an earlier poster stated, the "people" are relish, NOT the main course! I've got at least 150+ on my layout and have had numerous compliments on their realism.
Different strokes for different folks  
Bob


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> You're the one that posed this questions "That's why we are losing countless jobs and factories to China. The question is - what are we going to do about it?" Sounds like you're not willing to do anything about it.


Yes I posed a question because I don't have an answer. If I had an answer I wouldn't have asked a question - I would have provided an answer.



> If the only variables are labor and shipping and you're only willing to pay 20% more for American goods, that means (if you take the HIGH labor rate in China) - you're willing to pay US workers less than $3/hour to make these things. Glad I'm not working for you. I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, just pointing out the 2-sidedness of your viewpoint. You want them made here, but aren't willing to pay for them. THAT is precisely why mfg has gone overseas. The inability of Americans to understand what their purchasing decisions do to the decisions made at companies striving to stay alive. Compete or die.


I think you are rather naive in your viewpoints on the current state of the world economy/market vs. what can and will be done about it. Again it's the Leave it to Beaver mindset. That world is long-gone - the world where you can graduate high school, go to work at the local factory making whatzits, get a lifetime job, and retire with a pension. You want back what cannot be - like the line from the famous movie - that is a civilization gone with the wind. 

I'm not happy about the state of affairs either for US workers, but there is nothing that can or will be done about it. The standard of living in the US is going to go down - not up. Do I want that to happen? No. But I know what reality is. But, if you think otherwise tell me what laws will be realistically passed through Congress to turn it around. I'm all ears.

The way we can beat the Chinese prices though is with automation/robotics/A.I. (artificial intelligence) which is all coming on fast in the next 10 - 20 years. Unfortunately (and all this is coming faster than you might think) that will place even more workers out of even minimum wage jobs.

Good article on this -

Robotic Nation

But, look on the bright side - with all the coming intelligent automation you can probably buy a bag of 500 little people for $5 - all US made and painted without human intervention.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Currently working in the auto industry I'm very aware of global economics. I didn't want to have to settle for a manufacturing job so I put myself through undergrad and graduate school for Engineering.

However, not everyone can be an engineer.

I think you overestimate the effect robotics can have on the price of a product. You still need people to run the machines, check the parts, etc. Repairmen for the robots, etc. (We use extensive robotics in our body/paint shops - they are expensive as all getout to install.)

For our economy to turn around people need to be working. They need to be working in jobs that not only allow them to cover the necessaries (food, water, shelter) but they also need to be able to make enough to have a little extra to invest in their future.

Personally - Minimum wage should be at least $10/hour. Think about it - a typical work year has 2080 hours in it - that's only $20,800/year - certainly not living like a king.

Remember - if you're so OK with US labor and Chinese labor competing directly - it could be your job next that is being done overseas for 1/10th the cost. China and India are training thousands of engineers/professionals that are competing for even the high paying jobs over here. (Try to get an IT service person to help you that doesn't speak with a foreign accent - Most of the IT jobs from this country went overseas as fast as the electrons could carry them.)


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> Currently working in the auto industry I'm very aware of global economics. I didn't want to have to settle for a manufacturing job so I put myself through undergrad and graduate school for Engineering.


I'm an engineer too - electrical.



> I think you overestimate the effect robotics can have on the price of a product. You still need people to run the machines, check the parts, etc. Repairmen for the robots, etc. (We use extensive robotics in our body/paint shops - they are expensive as all getout to install.)


With all due respect - you don't understand the ramifications of what is coming, and mark my words - it _is_ coming. You're still thinking in terms of jobs that require a human. Why does McDonald's not completely automate it's restaurants? Because there are jobs there that robots still can't do. Otherwise do you know what McDonald's would do (will do)? They would eliminate every job that could be done by a robot. As soon as a robot can emulate a human brain - then it can do human jobs and it can certainly paint an N scale figure with ease. It can fix other robots, make hamburgers, check the parts, stock shelves, mop floors, etc. That's all going to start coming in 10 - 20 years, even if it takes more time than that, it is still going to happen. It will put thousands of workers out of jobs, because robots don't get sick or need vacations and can work 24/7/365.

People can't imagine robots doing the jobs people do now, but just as people couldn't imagine human flight, computers, space flight, modern medicine, and many other things we do now, it's just a matter of time.



> For our economy to turn around people need to be working. They need to be working in jobs that not only allow them to cover the necessaries (food, water, shelter) but they also need to be able to make enough to have a little extra to invest in their future.


While all that is true, who said our economy could be made to turn around? We don't have any inherent right to a good economy. There are no guarantees that our country will always have a good economy, unfortunately.



> Personally - Minimum wage should be at least $10/hour. Think about it - a typical work year has 2080 hours in it - that's only $20,800/year - certainly not living like a king.


As soon as that is made to happen, then companies will lay off workers to compensate for the loss of profits. Are you going to pass a law that states that companies can not lay off workers or reduce hours after the minimum wage is increased?



> Remember - if you're so OK with US labor and Chinese labor competing directly - it could be your job next that is being done overseas for 1/10th the cost.


I doubt it, since I'm retired. 



> China and India are training thousands of engineers/professionals that are competing for even the high paying jobs over here. (Try to get an IT service person to help you that doesn't speak with a foreign accent - Most of the IT jobs from this country went overseas as fast as the electrons could carry them.)


All true and that isn't going to change, so now what?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

xrunner said:


> With all due respect - you don't understand the ramifications of what is coming, and mark my words - it _is_ coming. You're still thinking in terms of jobs that require a human. Why does McDonald's not completely automate it's restaurants? Because there are jobs there that robots still can't do. Otherwise do you know what McDonald's would do (will do)? They would eliminate every job that could be done by a robot. As soon as a robot can emulate a human brain - then it can do human jobs and it can certainly paint an N scale figure with ease. It can fix other robots, make hamburgers, check the parts, stock shelves, mop floors, etc. That's all going to start coming in 10 - 20 years, even if it takes more time than that, it is still going to happen. It will put thousands of workers out of jobs, because robots don't get sick or need vacations and can work 24/7/365.
> 
> People can't imagine robots doing the jobs people do now, but just as people couldn't imagine human flight, computers, space flight, modern medicine, and many other things we do now, it's just a matter of time.


If everything is done by robots, then no one will have jobs to buy the products the robots make, thereby making the robots useless and obsolete making products no one can buy.



xrunner said:


> While all that is true, who said our economy could be made to turn around? We don't have any inherent right to a good economy. There are no guarantees that our country will always have a good economy, unfortunately..


Wow...there's some doom and gloom. We don't have a right to a good economy, but we do have the power to make it a good economy through the support of our local industry. All I'm saying is that if AMERICANS think it's important to maintain our standard of living, then we as AMERICANS need to protect our jobs/economy. I think the global economy temporarily benefits those at top (can buy the goods while they have jobs) but ultimately it causes the entire world to be on a level playing field (standards of living.)....and it's not those at the bottom working their way up. As more and more jobs go to "affordable" markets, then there are fewer and fewer people working, paying taxes, etc that drive the economy. Lose those people and your countries economy is toast - and so is your standard of living.



xrunner said:


> As soon as that is made to happen, then companies will lay off workers to compensate for the loss of profits. Are you going to pass a law that states that companies can not lay off workers or reduce hours after the minimum wage is increased?


Not necessarily true - increase the cost of the goods sold - if it's competitive with everyone else competing in this market, then the market will set a demand at that new price. Demand may be lower, but if your unit cost goes up to compensate, then nothing is really lost, is it.

If it's a commodity, then even better (gasoline, etc) People MUST buy those things. It's all the extras that would suffer (you know....like model railroading.)



xrunner said:


> I doubt it, since I'm retired.


The Chinese don't get retirement, neither do the Japanese. When people in this country are pounding their chests about US workers and their "fat" benefits packages.....they're talking about your retirement. Retirement packages also are a part of the global non-competitiveness. In the future, it's quite possible those of us working today won't be able to retire. My father (Engineer for GM for 32 years) retired 6 years ago....his healthcare plans and much of his retirement "package" got tanked in the GM bailout. Why? Supposedly because of a lack of global competitiveness. It can affect you too.



xrunner said:


> All true and that isn't going to change, so now what?


It certainly won't change with an attitude like that....I prefer to try to affect change rather than just moan about how bad things are. I try to influence those making purchasing decisions that don't really make sense (like my Cousin who bought a Kia minivan only to have it fall apart on her after 2 years - that money could have stayed here in our economy rather than sending it to Korea for them to just make more imported crap, and she would have had a much better vehicle.) 

It's a free country, and people can buy what they want....but if you don't think about your purchases, the job you eliminate may be your own. (Well....maybe not YOUR job:laugh


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow did I start all this by recommending those?:thumbsup:

I will stay out of this, I don't want to raise my BP.


As I said, with the N scale people you can't really see them anyway.:laugh:

You guys fight (discuss) nice now.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

sstlaure said:


> If everything is done by robots, then no one will have jobs to buy the products the robots make, thereby making the robots useless and obsolete making products no one can buy.


Did you read the article I linked to - Robotic Nation? You should read it. That's when our society has to fundamentally change from what it's always been, from what anybody has ever thought of in the entire history of work. That's when humans essentially become obsolete, as far as the whole production and distribution system goes. What you have pointed out is not going to happen overnight, it will be a point at which we will realize that the value of a human being to society isn't based on what he/she can produce for another based on a wage, 

Now, you may say to yourself, oh that xrunner is a strange fellow, what he's talking about, having intelligent robots doing all the work humans can do, well that's just not possible! That will never happen. People will always have to work for wages to live. I mean, it's always been that way.

I say at some point that will happen, and it will happen slowly at first, to low skill jobs, forcing many to be unemployed. Your question of who will buy the products is a tipping point question. It will have to be addressed at some point. The answer is that, at some point, it's possible that no one will have to buy the products because no one will have to work to survive. They will have the freedom to pursue whatever they want to without having to work, even model railroading.

Sound incredible? Sound crazy? Sound like science fiction? So did landing on the Moon at one time. It's only a matter of time now.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> Wow did I start all this by recommending those?:thumbsup:
> I will stay out of this, I don't want to raise my BP.


Oh no you don't, get back here! If you hadn't mentioned the Chinese peeps this whole thing wouldn't have happened!



> As I said, with the N scale people you can't really see them anyway.:laugh:
> 
> You guys fight (discuss) nice now.


Everything's going to be alright. It's a good discussion without too much flaming. We're all going to be friends after this thread is done.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Pete V said:


> well, how about Z scale people then? I use lint balls from the dryer.


How about T scale? You could use painted ants -


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

xrunner said:


> ... at some point, it's possible that no one will have to buy the products because no one will have to work to survive. They will have the freedom to pursue whatever they want to without having to work ...


Xrunner,

You might want to read up on some of Margaret Thatcher's postulating, too ...

"Socialism works great ... until you run out of other people's money."

The problem in this country is that we have a growing percentage of our population who are becoming more and more dependent on an entitlement philosophy. It's a very dangerous path, in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with a strong work ethic. In fact, it's pure capitalism that has sparked some of the greatest advancements that society has ever seen. Take away the capatilistic incentive, and we'll all wallow in mediocrity ... robots and all.

My two cents, anyway ...

TJ


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

FYI -

National Geographic article - August 2011

*Robots are being created that can think, act, and relate to humans. Are we ready?*

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/08/robots/carroll-text/1


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I am with TJ on this, to many people are to dependent on other things its just rediculous. i am in High School so I see a lot of what TJ is talking about. A lot of people more and more are becoming addicted to computers and Iprefix type things. Most of the people I have talked to have absolutly no plans for their future and these are seniors all the way down to freshmen. I have never owned and Iprefixed things like and I pod and can honestly say that hasn't hurt me in the least. I use this computer true but I am not addicted to it, I can get up right now and go do whatever I want if I want to and often times do. I am suprised at how much people just sit around all day and do nothing but listen to music or play some cheap app game thing on their Iphones and all they talk about is that or facebook. Some of my friends and i actually have the drive to go and do things, be creative, and inspire others which is what the majority of people don't have and I personally feel like it is the parents fault for it. It seems to me more and more parents just don't care about their children which I find really wrong but it is the truth. I am sure many of you on here know my ambitions and plans for what I plan to do so you all know I am not just lieing about it. I am not sure what could be done to change this but a new start. The parents need to be retought correctly and the children then need to e tought correctly because lets face it I am not the one controling the economy right now, in 10 years perhaps but not now, now it is the parents of these children with their I don't care about anything ethics that are running the economy and that is whats causing it along with greed.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

xrunner said:


> Robots are being created that can think, act, and relate to humans. Are we ready?


It's not _thinking_ robots that I'm worried about. It's non-thinking _humans_ that scares the #@%&#@ out of me! (Especially when they have the right to vote!)

TJ


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

> Especially when they have the right to vote!


Perhaps the writers of the Constitution were on to something when only property owners originally had the vote.


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## raleets (Jan 2, 2011)

gc53,
Sounds like you have some priorities established in life. :thumbsup: Congrats!
What truly amazes me these days are all the "text zombies" who can't put their electronic crutch down long enough to eat. 
I actually witnessed a teenager at Wendy's last week who dribbled catsup all over his iphone while trying to eat french fries and text at the same time.
I laughed out loud right there in the restaurant!! :laugh: :laugh:
Saw another one trip and go flat on his face when he didn't see the curb because he was so engrossed in texting. 
Perhaps when their thumbs fall off they'll really get the message!
Bob


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

xrunner said:


> How about T scale? You could use painted ants - (That's a 4-6-2 in the picture)


Oh yeah!!! How about Tiny Scale (1:900) How do you paint a grain of sand to look like a person?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

raleets said:


> gc53,
> Sounds like you have some priorities established in life. :thumbsup: Congrats!
> What truly amazes me these days are all the "text zombies" who can't put their electronic crutch down long enough to eat.
> I actually witnessed a teenager at Wendy's last week who dribbled catsup all over his iphone while trying to eat french fries and text at the same time.
> ...


Its amazing (in a bad way) how engrossed and dependant people are on their phones especially the Iphones. Thankfully me and a good bit of other people in my class are not like that, guess our year was raised right out of them all. Sadly some are exactly like that and I just can't imagine living like that or being that attached to a phone and it kind of bugs me to be honest. The scariest part is the people who are driving and texting or something like that. I only have my permit and I drive better then most people on the roads because i actually use turn signals, go the speed limit, and don't talk/text on the phone. I have had a few candy things like a jolly rancher so I can't say I have not eaten but I make sure to only do it at a red light if I do and not while driving.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> Wow did I start all this by recommending those?:thumbsup:


I received my order from China today. I got trees, cars, peeps, and 5 red/greed LED signals. The assortment of peeps appears to go from small children to adults with walking canes/suitcases - can't tell that they are of any particular race. The paint colors are of a fair variety, and the lot seems perfectly suitable for my layout anyway. I had 7 peeps I had kept from 1970's when I had my layout as a kid and I see no real difference in the paint quality. No Mona Lisa's in the bag but that's OK.

The cars are OK, most are colored by the plastic used, with painted tail lights and hubcaps. It's funny but some are red by the plastic and others are red by being painted, not sure why they did that LOL. I might paint a few other colors myself.

The trees are again a fair lot and look OK for use on a layout. 

All in all I'm pleased with the price vs quality. You can buy better I suppose but for my personal tastes it gets the job done here.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

xrunner said:


> I received my order from China today. I got trees, cars, peeps, and 5 red/greed LED signals. The assortment of peeps appears to go from small children to adults with walking canes/suitcases - can't tell that they are of any particular race. The paint colors are of a fair variety, and the lot seems perfectly suitable for my layout anyway. I had 7 peeps I had kept from 1970's when I had my layout as a kid and I see no real difference in the paint quality. No Mona Lisa's in the bag but that's OK.
> 
> The cars are OK, most are colored by the plastic used, with painted tail lights and hubcaps. It's funny but some are red by the plastic and others are red by being painted, not sure why they did that LOL. I might paint a few other colors myself.
> 
> ...



Took 2 weeks?
I will have to find my people and take a picture.

The cars are good to use with others to fill a parking lot, used car lot, junk some up for a junk yard, etc.
Since they are basically the same car, blend them in with other makes for a parking lot.

Trees I never had, I think some of their N scale boats would work in a river or lake scene. Just got to put American flags and lettering on them.

Like I said, I think we honest are family with some of the other Chinese sellers, and Japanese sellers are the same.

And when you find something you like check out the whole selling list as the price will fluctuate, you might be able to get it cheaper.

Or wait, they will re-list the item, don't bid too high, just keep bidding on the new listings. 

And don't let the word get around that they are Chinese.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

big ed said:


> And don't let the word get around that they are Chinese.


Will do. 

I'll be right back, I just want to wash the lead contamination off my hands since I've been handling them just now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gc53dfgc said:


> I am with TJ on this, to many people are to dependent on other things its just rediculous. i am in High School so I see a lot of what TJ is talking about. A lot of people more and more are becoming addicted to computers and Iprefix type things. Most of the people I have talked to have absolutly no plans for their future and these are seniors all the way down to freshmen. I have never owned and Iprefixed things like and I pod and can honestly say that hasn't hurt me in the least. I use this computer true but I am not addicted to it, I can get up right now and go do whatever I want if I want to and often times do. I am suprised at how much people just sit around all day and do nothing but listen to music or play some cheap app game thing on their Iphones and all they talk about is that or facebook. Some of my friends and i actually have the drive to go and do things, be creative, and inspire others which is what the majority of people don't have and I personally feel like it is the parents fault for it. It seems to me more and more parents just don't care about their children which I find really wrong but it is the truth. I am sure many of you on here know my ambitions and plans for what I plan to do so you all know I am not just lieing about it. I am not sure what could be done to change this but a new start. The parents need to be retought correctly and the children then need to e tought correctly because lets face it I am not the one controling the economy right now, in 10 years perhaps but not now, now it is the parents of these children with their I don't care about anything ethics that are running the economy and that is whats causing it along with greed.



Can I be the Engineer after you build it?:smokin:

I will paint it for you.


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