# Very Disturbing LC+ Failure



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm really bummed out about this and this thread is about as close to a rant as I get. Earlier this week when I was running my wonderful LC+ "Super-Duper Chief" to take pictures for PTC's To B or Not To B thread, the lead unit in my A-B-B-B-A set of FTs died.

I substituted a non-powered A unit and can run the train (all three B and the other A unit are powered so there is plenty of power) but I was proud of having all powered units, and of having two units with sound. 







The failure of the lead A unit is _exactly_ like the failure of two LC+ GP7s I had a year or more back. In all three cases, the rear truck on the unit locked up absolutely solid - there is no play at all in the wheel rotation. I spent dozens and dozens of hour trying to fix the GP7s and this latest loco is doing exactly the same thing. I concluded its like a broken leg on a horse - just shoot it - you're not going to fix it. so its in the spare parts/project box now. 

I thought Lionel had fixed the problem with some of the earlier diesels by the time the FTs came out, but apparenlty not. 

Then I received a new LC+ RS-3 I had ordered (below). It would not run in forward out of the box. Shaking it gently makes it behave for a while, then it dies again. I took the shell off, pushed every connector together and such, put it back together, and it behaves itslef most of the time, but often I have to give it a nudge to wake it up: it just dies. 

So I'm four for eight for LC+ two-motor diesels. I will buy no more. I've had no trouble with one-motor LC+ locos, all my steamers (seven) and the NW-2s (two). But my big worry is that the other four powered unit on my Super Duper Chief will fail. I think I'd give up on Lionel at that point.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

Sorry to hear that, especially remembering your post when you first ran them. I ordered and received a LC Camelback, but had to send it back when it was on the tracks it shuttered like it was binding, but when I had it on my test track (track has rollers), it ran fine. Dealer is going to exchange it, waiting for my roadname.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

That sucks...


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## Kmac (Sep 19, 2015)

I am sorry to hear about the FT dying on you and about the new RS-3 not running properly. I don't know much about LC+ engines, but could you take the one motor out of the FT and just have it be a single motor engine? I hope you can get them figured out and can get that great ABBBA consist back in action. Good luck.

Keaton.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Is there a design flaw in these guys. Seems like a lot of issues have occurred with these locos.

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Lee, I'd like to see one of the GP-7's someday to see if I can figure out what is happening.  I hope my LC+ Camelback doesn't do that!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Why not send it back to Lionel? It's under warranty....?

Frustrating to say the least.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

That's very disappointing but knowing you over the years through your many posts I know you won't be sending them back to Lionel.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

I'm sorry to her this Lee. I also thought the problem with LC+ diesels was solved. I hope you can figure this out and make these locos as reliable as the steamers.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Lee, I know your reluctance to return non-working items back to the manufacturer. But, think on this. If you send ALL your non-working LC+ diesels back together, all apparently with the same problem, perhaps Lionel will take notice and do something positive for the entire hobby. You could be helping everyone in the long run. 

Maybe, Lionel would even thank you. Who knows? It might be worth the effort. Just a thought.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

BobS said:


> Lee, I know your reluctance to return non-working items back to the manufacturer. But, think on this. If you send ALL your non-working LC+ diesels back together, all apparently with the same problem, perhaps Lionel will take notice and do something positive for the entire hobby. You could be helping everyone in the long run.
> 
> Maybe, Lionel would even thank you. Who knows? It might be worth the effort. Just a thought.


Thank you! That makes incredible sense. I will think about it. I'm sort of slammed on time to do anything right with a sudden infestation of all sorts of minor medical maladies that seem to be driving us crazy here, but I will try. 

I could also call some people at Lionel first. But frankly I think Lionel has to know about this problem. Early LC+ diesels had this problem, I know. It was supposed to be fixed. 

But thanks for the suggestion. Now I will feel guilty until I get this done. Gotta find the two old GP-7s - they are somewhere in my spare parts boxes.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your problem Lee. I know you really liked the LC+ engines. Hopefully, Lionel will fix the problem. What I am really sorry for is the LC+ are starter sets for a lot of future Model railroaders. A problem like this could discourage young people from taking up the hobby.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree PatKn, completely. Lionel is shooting itself in the foot with quality if it puts these diesels out there with this problem. 

I have four more. The problem seems to strike at around 200 operating hours. Three of them are not too far from that. I'll know within a month or so if they fail, too. If they do, Lionel really has a problem it better deal with.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

LEE,
Sorry to hear about the problems you are having with the locos. Why not bring it to YORK in a few weeks and show it to MIKE REAGAN there. He will get to see it first hand. If he can't figure it out give it to GUNRUNNER. He deffinitly will find the problem.
Good Luck.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Is this just limited to the diesel locomotives?


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

Chiefmcfuz said:


> Is this just limited to the diesel locomotives?


To the best of my knowledge it's only with the diesels. The steam locos don't have any problems. I have 3 LC+ steam locos and haven't had any problems yet, though one is fairly new with not that much running time yet. The other 2 have quite a few hours of running time.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

I have been following this LC issue also. It is not good for Lionel to have such a popular defective product on the market.

But most of all I am posting to wish you and your wonderful bride Lorren good health.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Wood said:


> I have been following this LC issue also. It is not good for Lionel to have such a popular defective product on the market.
> 
> But most of all I am posting to wish you and your wonderful bride Lorren good health.


Thank you, Wood. We're both a little bit challenged in that area at the moment, but things are getting better. I hope you guys are doing well.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Lee,
My LC+ GP7 is being fixed. The board started smoking. It also had problems out of the box and had to be sent back to Lionel. They fixed it now this problem with the board. Fortunately, it's still under warranty.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Country Joe said:


> To the best of my knowledge it's only with the diesels. The steam locos don't have any problems. I have 3 LC+ steam locos and haven't had any problems yet, though one is fairly new with not that much running time yet. The other 2 have quite a few hours of running time.


I have 3 steamers, one regular from the Pennsylvania Flyer set and two LC+ in my collection. Following this thread. Thanks so much for posting!


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

Sounds like a Mike Reagan issue. I would contact him directly.


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Lee
Respectfully, if you complain about this issue (and I agree with your complaint) but don't give Lionel a chance to fix it, it is almost unfair to complain publicly. Either they will make it right and fix the issue globally, or they don't. In either event it is useful information. 
Ray


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

rlomba8204 said:


> Lee
> Respectfully, if you complain about this issue (and I agree with your complaint) but don't give Lionel a chance to fix it, it is almost unfair to complain publicly. Either they will make it right and fix the issue globally, or they don't. In either event it is useful information.
> Ray


Thanks, and I respect the perspective you have, but . . . I buy their products. That gives me the right. If they did their job right, these products would not need fixing. 

And believe me. They know about the flaw. I communicated plenty when the first two broke down.


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

I didn't realize that you had already been in touch. That makes their position a good deal less defensible.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

rlomba8204 said:


> Lee
> Respectfully, if you complain about this issue (and I agree with your complaint) but don't give Lionel a chance to fix it, it is almost unfair to complain publicly. Either they will make it right and fix the issue globally, or they don't. In either event it is useful information.
> Ray


Lionel has been beat up over this issue for the past couple years. They are aware of the problem but apparently have not been able to come up with a fix for the issue.

Bill


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

If Lionel is actually aware of the problem, and has not been able, or, can not rectify it, they, Lionel should issue a recall for the defective products and offer some recompense to the owners.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

Lee I also have f3 and power unit burnt out board. Sent it to Lionel and was fixed and returned in 2 weeks. Hope my 2 b units don't do the same. One of the b units rear truck is jumpy at very low speeds but is good at half speed.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

Lee, I am very sorry to hear this.
In fact, after reading this I will probably hold off replacing my LC+ Hudson that fell, and then fried itself due to a mangled coupler from the tender connection...all my fault, but...
I lose sleep at night enough regarding my MTH trains should they go on the fritz, and do not want to have to worry about LC+ in addition to that and my Legacy trains.
I decided earlier this year that any new trains will be Lionel Pullmor Conventionals and Williams conventional can motors.
I just cant stand worrying about expensive trains frying or going bad.
I feel your pain, here is my tally so far:

1) Fried LC+ Hudson $359
2) Fried replacement board for (1) $85


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm sorry to learn of this too, Lee. I was thinking of replacing my 2007 Polar Express set with the Lion Chief one, but will not be doing so now. This engine has run flawlessly with no problems for going on 9 years now. I have always run conventional only and will continue to do so. 

I know that command control and even Lion Chief have perks that conventional doesn't have. But for what I have and use, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" pure conventional works for me with Lionel and Williams.

Good luck with resolving these issues.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yellowstone Special said:


> I'm sorry to learn of this too, Lee. I was thinking of replacing my 2007 Polar Express set with the Lion Chief one, but will not be doing so now. This engine has run flawlessly with no problems for going on 9 years now. I have always run conventional only and will continue to do so.
> 
> I know that command control and even Lion Chief have perks that conventional doesn't have. But for what I have and use, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" pure conventional works for me with Lionel and Williams.
> 
> Good luck with resolving these issues.


Thanks. the absolutely pisser here is that, because it is a mechanical failure (the locking of the axles/gears/whatever), I can't even flip the switch and run them in conventional. I'd be reasonably happy with doing that as an alternative.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can't believe that something that obvious can't be tracked down. Lionel has no response?


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## vallieone (Dec 23, 2009)

I too have the Lion chief plus Santa Fe Diesels. Not looking forward to the power unit seizing up on me like Lee's. Unfortunately, mine is not under warranty since I purchased it from a private individual on another forum.

Hope Lionel has a solution to this problem and that Lee can get his repaired.

Please keep us all posted on the final outcome.

George


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Lee I was considering picking up a Lion Chief set at York for my 4 year old grandson who will be with me next week and turned four Tuesday. After reading this, I have about changed my mind. They have conventional already. 

I promised him that we will find something. Your recommendation?

Seems to me that disappointment can really last with a four year old and, on the positive side, having something that runs 50+ years later almost as well as it did at first is something that stays with you all your life.

Maybe I just answered my own question and it doesn't feel like Lionchief. I don't like what that says for the hobby/Lionel.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Bill: Remember, the problem is with the diesels. There have been no similar problems reported with the steamers. I think everyone is losing sight of this fact and discounting the purchase of Lionchief steamers.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

BobS said:


> Bill: Remember, the problem is with the diesels. There have been no similar problems reported with the steamers. I think everyone is losing sight of this fact and discounting the purchase of Lionchief steamers.


ABSOLUTELY! I just got a new LC+ steamer for a project, and, if the Lionel shipping schedule is right, have two A5s coming in June. The steamers I already have (nine) seem bulletproof. No problems with any of them.

I also have sixteen remotes and have had no failures in them, or the electronics on my LC+ locos (even the diesels). LC+ seems a good system, and the steamers solid and depdnable, as well as the single motor diesels (NW-2s). It's just the two-motor diesels that have given me problems.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm a bit surprised that Lionel hasn't addressed the issue with the diesel trucks. We haven't gotten one back to the shop for that issue, so I haven't actually seen it first hand.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

I noticed last night after a half hour, my F3 Santa Fe lioncheif plus seems to be dragging the rear truck. Wheels seem to be turning but not as fast as front truck or the two powered B units. I was pulling 15 car passenger consist.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Bob Phillips said:


> I noticed last night after a half hour, my F3 Santa Fe lioncheif plus seems to be dragging the rear truck. Wheels seem to be turning but not as fast as front truck or the two powered B units. I was pulling 15 car passenger consist.


Uh oh. That's how mine started, I'm sorry to say. I'd lube it well and hope for the best! Good luck.


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## vallieone (Dec 23, 2009)

Uh oh,Bob.

Please keep us posted of any new developments. Will keep an eye on my Santa Fe also.


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## Bob Phillips (Nov 25, 2014)

Will the B units do this also? I really like this train. Was thinking of getting a Rio Grande one also at York but now I'll look for older model I guess. Would really like chrome set of Santa Fe.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

BobS said:


> Bill: Remember, the problem is with the diesels. There have been no similar problems reported with the steamers. I think everyone is losing sight of this fact and discounting the purchase of Lionchief steamers.


Thats good to know!
As I really liked my LC+ Hudson before I fried it.
They need a LC+ Turbine!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well Vince, we can't really blame the Hudson for what happened to it.


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well Vince, we can't really blame the Hudson for what happened to it.


I know...I know...was looking for a scapegoat....


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks guys. We will be selective or just buy a nice but older conventional diesel. One thing for sure, plenty of selection.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Bill Webb said:


> Lee I was considering picking up a Lion Chief set at York for my 4 year old grandson who will be with me next week and turned four Tuesday. After reading this, I have about changed my mind. They have conventional already.
> 
> I promised him that we will find something. Your recommendation?
> 
> ...


Bill,
Most of the problems people are having are with LionChief Plus including myself. I haven't heard of any problems with the Lionchief sets that are made so a 4yr old can operate it (less features). I wouldn't make a decision based on what you read here. They are valid complaints, but it doesn't represent all of LionChief owners, but if you are happy with you conventional trains then you should stay with that.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Bob Phillips said:


> I noticed last night after a half hour, my F3 Santa Fe lioncheif plus seems to be dragging the rear truck. Wheels seem to be turning but not as fast as front truck or the two powered B units. I was pulling 15 car passenger consist.


Not on topic but my Lion Master Big boy twin motors do not turn at the same speed. The rear motor turns slower than the front.


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## Bill Webb (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks Denny. I understand what everyone is saying and lots of good choices. Actually are two brothers who would use it, 4 and 8. Four year old just had birthday and is going to York with me. Did something similar with his brother 3-4 years ago. 

Both can run our legacy stuff fairly well with supervision. Plan to look at what is out there w/o two motors and decide. Easiest thing to do is take one off the shelf here and give it to him except we told him that he can get something in York.

Kids today seem to prefer the hand controller better and with video games, cell phones, etc, it is understandable. They have never known anything else.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

flyernut said:


> Not on topic but my Lion Master Big boy twin motors do not turn at the same speed. The rear motor turns slower than the front.


Remember, only one motor has the speed control, so it's the one that will maintain a fixed speed. If you have the engine on the bench or on rollers, it's not unusual for one motor to turn slower, or at slow speeds, not turn at all. If you simply apply a little friction to the motor with the speed control, the other motor will take off.

If they turn at different speeds on the track, you have a different problem!


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Remember, only one motor has the speed control, so it's the one that will maintain a fixed speed. If you have the engine on the bench or on rollers, it's not unusual for one motor to turn slower, or at slow speeds, not turn at all. If you simply apply a little friction to the motor with the speed control, the other motor will take off.
> 
> If they turn at different speeds on the track, you have a different problem!


Thanks John.. That's how I originally discovered the difference in the 2 sets of drivers; it was on my treadmill.. Thanks for the info..


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

But its s slight difference there. If friction building up in one set of wheels gets too bad, then look out!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, but on rollers, it can be exaggerated. The weight distribution is rarely equal, and if the unregulated wheels have more weight on them, sometimes you have to get the speed controlled set moving at a pretty good clip before the other motor starts to move.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Yep, but on rollers, it can be exaggerated. The weight distribution is rarely equal, and if the unregulated wheels have more weight on them, sometimes you have to get the speed controlled set moving at a pretty good clip before the other motor starts to move.


That is a good point. Usually the friction with the rails when running will keept the two sets of drives in sync, etc., as on the Big Boys, etc.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Just started reading about this. I am also curious what may be the problem. I don't have any LC stuff or I would check it out. I wonder if there is some plastic in the drive train that is either cracking or swelling causing the lock up? Lionel has a bad track record of using plastic gears and bearings.


Guess what. Just checked out the parts page and these are the driveshaft bearings.










If these are nylon they are prone to swelling.


Pete


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nothing like ten or twelve pounds of diecast metal pushing the wheels down. I've seen spots of uneven track where the speed controlled wheels don't get traction and they just spin and the other truck does nothing as it doesn't have enough juice to offer any drive.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Norton said:


> Just started reading about this. I am also curious what may be the problem. I don't have any LC stuff or I would check it out. I wonder if there is some plastic in the drive train that is either cracking or swelling causing the lock up? Lionel has a bad track record of using plastic gears and bearings.
> 
> 
> Guess what. Just checked out the parts page and these are the driveshaft bearings.
> ...


Thanks. I gotta check that . . .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You may be able to get those back on the tracks.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

The first pic posted was for the GP7 and listed as available. This is actually the driveshaft for the FT and its listed as must contact Lionel to order.










Not sure the GP bearings are the same shape. Also replacing them would require pulling a gear off. The shape precludes simply replacing with a sintered bronze bearing which is what I would try to do.
More and more I have to scratch my head when I see Lionel doing stuff like this. *W*heels *T*hat *F*ail?


Pete


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

It seems to me that Lionel has been informed of this problem
several times.It also seems that Lionel is ignoring the problem.
I hope that is not so. Lionel seemed to respond to problems in the past.
It is hard to believe that they cannot find a fix. Too costly? It 
shouldn't be just for the company reputation.
Not possible to fix? As someone suggested at least find a way to disconnect the offending truck so the loco can be used. Some of you may be able to just "junk" a loco like this but I can't afford to do that.
The real problem to me is that I had just decided to buy an RC+ loco and now this info comes. I had several dealers tell me that there were/are problems with these locos but they were not specific so I thought it was more of a dealer/manufacturer-importer problem. Now I see all of this problem being clearly defined so this puts buying an RC+ loco on hold.
The part I really don't understand is that Lionel MUST know there is a problem [ just look at this topic] and are not acknowledging it. If it can't be fixed they should say so and bite the bullet, offer some kind of refund and keep their loyal customers loyal.


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## BobS (Jun 18, 2015)

Well, at least no one is getting killed with bad ignition switches or sticking accelerator pedals.


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## L0stS0ul (Feb 6, 2015)

I've been thinking about an LC+ diesel for my ceiling train but I think I will hold off now. That track runs many hours a day and it doesn't sound like that is a good use for LC+ diesels. Thanks for letting us all know about this. Using plastic for the drive shaft bearings is not smart


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## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

In my ost just above i made reference to RC+. 
It should have been LC+. Sorry.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I remain pretty much "in" with respect to LC+ - its just two-motor diesels I refuse to buy now. I got another LC+ Hudson today - for a project, and its perfect, as I expected it would be.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

Just curious, could the motor be disconnected from the bad wheels and just free roll and run with one motor? I know little of the Lionel RC Diesels nor how they are set up. I only have the Camelback and after replacement of a bad in new in the box, with another. Found out recently they the driving wheels were setup wrong, dealer repaired and now has it for sale. Ran god on my test track, but on the layout it wobbled bad, seems opposing wheels were fighting each other. But satisfied with the Camelback engine


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