# Need Wiring Help



## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

I have a Marx "O scale" train that I have had since I was less than a month old. Dad liked it a lot!:laugh: It has an external circuit breaker that seems to be in working order but I don't know how to wire it into the track. Anyone have a wiring diagram for this?

Thanks


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This I gotta see. Do you have a picture?? The voltage is low enough not to need a breaker. Please show it to id the varmit. I should work in series.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

T-Man said:


> This I gotta see. Do you have a picture?? The voltage is low enough not to need a breaker. Please show it to id the varmit. I should work in series.


Here they are.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Willsarv, welcome to the forum, and my first reaction was "That is sooo cool!" I'll step back and let T-Man answer, but that is a really neat piece to have. Any idea how old the set is?


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Willsarv, welcome to the forum, and my first reaction was "That is sooo cool!" I'll step back and let T-Man answer, but that is a really neat piece to have. Any idea how old the set is?


It was a Christmas gift in 1953. I was just a few days old when I got it.:laugh:


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

I agree with T-Man, but would suggest letting him get back with you to confirm before you do anything. That said, I think he'll tell you the hot wire from your transformer will go to either of the knurled screws. You'd then take a second wire from the other knurled screw to the hot rail on the track. I don't run Lionel, but I think I recall this being the center rail---wait for T-Man to confirm this.
The idea would be your output from the transrformer goes through the circuit breaker, and then to the track and the engine. If the circuit-breaker gets hot, it opens and cuts power to the tracks. This might be important if you're a parent in 1953 with a real, wooden christmas tree and a train under it. The kids leave the transformer turned on, a piece of tinsel falls from the tree and drapes across the tracks, causing a short and getting hotter and hotter...you get the idea. Tha's my best guess, anyway, for incorporating it into a layout.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Reckers said:


> I agree with T-Man, but would suggest letting him get back with you to confirm before you do anything. That said, I think he'll tell you the hot wire from your transformer will go to either of the knurled screws. You'd then take a second wire from the other knurled screw to the hot rail on the track. I don't run Lionel, but I think I recall this being the center rail---wait for T-Man to confirm this.
> The idea would be your output from the transrformer goes through the circuit breaker, and then to the track and the engine. If the circuit-breaker gets hot, it opens and cuts power to the tracks. This might be important if you're a parent in 1953 with a real, wooden christmas tree and a train under it. The kids leave the transformer turned on, a piece of tinsel falls from the tree and drapes across the tracks, causing a short and getting hotter and hotter...you get the idea. Tha's my best guess, anyway, for incorporating it into a layout.


There is a light inside that lights when the circuit breaker kicks. It would have to have a ground somehow. It the breaker just goes inline with the positive the breaker wouldn't have a ground to light the light.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Good point. You have two screws on the bottom, one has a wire running up inside. From the pics, those appear to be the bottoms of the screws the knurled nuts attach to: is that correct? If so, are they insulated from the frame of the device? If so, we can safely assume the hot runs in on one terminal and out the other, I think. I assumed the "lamp illuminated" state indicated a closed circuit instead of an open one; hence, my assumption there was no ground wire needed. Back to the drawing board.

If it illuminates because of an open circuit, then as you pointed out, there must be a ground wire attachment point and the two knurled nuts should be on insulated terminals. On the bottom, it appears there is a missing screw. Is it possible the ground wire ran from one of the center screws (one of which appears to be missing). I haven't got a clear pic, yet, of how the thing is working. It has to have both a hot and ground on the transformer side to make the light illuminate when the hot wire overheats; I don't see why it would need more than that. My bet is the circuit works this way: a ground wire runs to the track; a separate ground wire or feeder from the ground rail runs to the base of your device. The main hot runs from the transformer to the first knurled nut, then a second wire from nut #2 to the track's hot rail. This would provide power to the device and a ground to the device as long as the tranny has power. Your thoughts?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

YEP series Thor trains has it.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Gents,

I'm just jumpin' in the conversation here, and will certainly defer to T-Man for the definitive answers, but ...

Reckers comments / quesiton about "not having a ground", but having the light still work got me thinking about the little lighted doorbell button near my front door. You all probably have something similar, too.

Low voltage DC current runs to the doorbell button, which effectively acts like a simple switch. Push the button, close the circuit, and the doorbells chime. Easy. But, I've always been baffled as to how the little light inside the button lights ON at all times, regardless of whether the button is pushed. There's no ground wire (I know, I've installed a few of these), and I don't see any other means to complete the circuit for the little light. I wonder (???) if the voltage and current is low enough that the metal housing (and nearby house/earth) somehow serve as a ground. I've fiddle with house wiring stuff before, but this one has always had me stumped.

Anyway ... maybe the circuit breaker is similar ???

TJ


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Good point. You have two screws on the bottom, one has a wire running up inside. From the pics, those appear to be the bottoms of the screws the knurled nuts attach to: is that correct? If so, are they insulated from the frame of the device? If so, we can safely assume the hot runs in on one terminal and out the other, I think. I assumed the "lamp illuminated" state indicated a closed circuit instead of an open one; hence, my assumption there was no ground wire needed. Back to the drawing board.
> 
> If it illuminates because of an open circuit, then as you pointed out, there must be a ground wire attachment point and the two knurled nuts should be on insulated terminals. On the bottom, it appears there is a missing screw. Is it possible the ground wire ran from one of the center screws (one of which appears to be missing). I haven't got a clear pic, yet, of how the thing is working. It has to have both a hot and ground on the transformer side to make the light illuminate when the hot wire overheats; I don't see why it would need more than that. My bet is the circuit works this way: a ground wire runs to the track; a separate ground wire or feeder from the ground rail runs to the base of your device. The main hot runs from the transformer to the first knurled nut, then a second wire from nut #2 to the track's hot rail. This would provide power to the device and a ground to the device as long as the tranny has power. Your thoughts?


Of the two knurled nuts, only the one with the wire is insulated. The other is direct to the frame of the breaker. 

The light lights up when the circuit opens. 

The extra screw hole underneath is not used. It just holds the socket for the light bulb. 

I took 12 volts and attached the positive to the wired lug and the negative to the ground lug. It took about one second and the circuit opened up and the light came on.

The pictures I posted are ones that I got off of ebay but they are identical to my breaker. It is wired exactlly the same as the pictures.

It has to be wired some how in series for it to work. I just don't know how.

Thanks for the help.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Here's what I am seeing in the T-Man drawing (THor site). Start with the transformer. Ground wire goes directly to an outer rail on the track---makes sense, as you never want to break the ground-wire side of the circuit. Hot wire goes to the circuit-breaker, and my guess is it goes to the insulated stud. Another wire runs from the non-insulated stud to the center, or hot rail. If everything is working right and you keep your hands to yourself, the light stays off, the train runs fine and everyone is happy.

Now, tjcruiser comes in and he's still mulling over that doorbell button thing. He walks over to the basement wall, sticks his tongue on a grounded water-pipe, and leans over to pick up the pretty new circuit breaker....which is on the hot-wire, inside and out, right? The next thing that happens is predictable. TJ begins to dance the funky chicken, the wire heats up and his wife upstairs is suddenly inspired to serve beef tongue for dinner, tonight. Eventually, the wire is hot enough to pop the breaker, turn on the red light, drop TJ in his tracks and most important of all, get his tongue off the water-pipe.

As soon as the wire cools, the light goes out and the layout becomes operational again. TJ will take a while longer.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

T-Man said:


> YEP series Thor trains has it.


Sorry, I didn't notice you had included a link. I guess I will have to give it a try and see what happens. My transformer also has a built in circuit breaker so it probably isn't needed anyways.

Thanks


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Here's what I am seeing in the T-Man drawing (THor site). Start with the transformer. Ground wire goes directly to an outer rail on the track---makes sense, as you never want to break the ground-wire side of the circuit. Hot wire goes to the circuit-breaker, and my guess is it goes to the insulated stud. Another wire runs from the non-insulated stud to the center, or hot rail. If everything is working right and you keep your hands to yourself, the light stays off, the train runs fine and everyone is happy.
> 
> Now, tjcruiser comes in and he's still mulling over that doorbell button thing. He walks over to the basement wall, sticks his tongue on a grounded water-pipe, and leans over to pick up the pretty new circuit breaker....which is on the hot-wire, inside and out, right? The next thing that happens is predictable. TJ begins to dance the funky chicken, the wire heats up and his wife upstairs is suddenly inspired to serve beef tongue for dinner, tonight. Eventually, the wire is hot enough to pop the breaker, turn on the red light, drop TJ in his tracks and most important of all, get his tongue off the water-pipe.
> 
> As soon as the wire cools, the light goes out and the layout becomes operational again. TJ will take a while longer.


Kinda reminds me of the hunter hunting near a electric fence when the urge to relieve himself came over him. 

I did have the misfortune once of bracing myself by holding onto a copper pipe while I was working on the telephone line. Not a good time to get a phone call.

Thanks again.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

*LOL* Mine was worse. Sunday morning, and she said "Can you replace the flourescent tube over the (electric) stove? So, I'm in my boxies, fumbling around with the tube inside the vent hood where I can't really see what I'm doing. My fingertip finding one of the prongs coincided with old blue finding the gap in front of the boxies and the metal front of the electric stove. It was ugly.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jeez ... and I thought we were having chicken for dinner tonight ...

(And I'm STILL stumped about how my doorbell button lights up when there's no return-loop for the circuit ...)


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Tj, do you have a single wire in and a single wire out of that doorbell button?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Yup ... it's about as simple a button-switch as it gets. Low voltage (via step-down transformer, located in basement), hot lead going into button, with return going out. Push the button, close the circuit, the doorbell rings. The button housing is not grounded to the wall (where it's mounted) in any way. So how does the light light when the button is NOT pushed (and the circuit is open)?

So asks Homer Simpson ...


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

I thought this was about my train set!:laugh: JK!!

I wired it in series and nothing. When I shorted the track out it tripped the breaker in the transformer. That's a good thing I guess because I know that breaker works. But the external breaker does nothing. I can reach inside of the external and manually trip it and it makes no difference. Current is flowing between the two lugs no matter what. 

At this point I am satisfied that I am protected since the internal breaker is working but curious as to how the darn thing works!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Twist the tabs and pull it apart. It is probably a glass bulb. The strip heats up and breaks the circuit. The bulbs have to be in parallel to work.They do not draw enough current to activate the bell or whatever. The same is for a motor You can operate a light but not have the power to run an engine. That's the best explanation I have.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Tj...your doorbell button is on the hot line to the box that makes the chime. The wire splits internally at the button. One side goes to a high-resistance filament---the bulb. It stays on all the time. Because you need 12 volts to activate the chime, the circuit normally does not have the muscle to ding-dong because of the high reistance. I'll bet the illuminated button is slightly warm all time.
The second half, still inside the button, is a direct line from the input side thru the switch to the output side, and it has the potential to carry all 12 volts. I say potential because you have to close the switch by pushing the button. So...push the button, all 12 volts wallop the transformer in the chime, yanking the plunger and making that obnoxious "bong" the neighbors keep complainining about. Let go and the transformer's field collapses. All that is left is 12 volts going into a filament or filament-and-resistor that eat most of it creating dim light and heat. Only a trickle escapes, and that's not enough to power the transformer in the chime box.


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

willsarv said:


> I thought this was about my train set!:laugh: JK!!
> 
> I wired it in series and nothing. When I shorted the track out it tripped the breaker in the transformer. That's a good thing I guess because I know that breaker works. But the external breaker does nothing. I can reach inside of the external and manually trip it and it makes no difference. Current is flowing between the two lugs no matter what.
> 
> At this point I am satisfied that I am protected since the internal breaker is working but curious as to how the darn thing works!


Best guess at this point is that your tranny's circuit breaker pops sooner than your antique. The important issue is that, as you said, you are protected. At this point, your insatiable curiosity forces you to follow T-Man's suggestion and open it, posting pics for all of us to see. OR...you say to yourself the following mantra: "Antique...rare....good money....don't need it....don't risk damaging it." Either is a viable approach.:thumbsup:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Tj...your doorbell button is on the hot line to the box that makes the chime. The wire splits internally at the button. One side goes to a high-resistance filament---the bulb. It stays on all the time. Because you need 12 volts to activate the chime, the circuit normally does not have the muscle to ding-dong because of the high reistance. I'll bet the illuminated button is slightly warm all time.
> The second half, still inside the button, is a direct line from the input side thru the switch to the output side, and it has the potential to carry all 12 volts. I say potential because you have to close the switch by pushing the button. So...push the button, all 12 volts wallop the transformer in the chime, yanking the plunger and making that obnoxious "bong" the neighbors keep complainining about. Let go and the transformer's field collapses. All that is left is 12 volts going into a filament or filament-and-resistor that eat most of it creating dim light and heat. Only a trickle escapes, and that's not enough to power the transformer in the chime box.


"Ahhh!" said the blind man ... "I see, I see!" Makes perfect sense ... a split to 2 circuits, exactly as you describe.

I can finally sleep at night ... That is, of course, providing you all don't sneak over to my house and take turns pushing my doorbell button the whone night through!

Thanks, Reckers ... much appreciated!

TJ

Ohh ... as far as the circuit breaker is concerned (wasn't there a thread somewhere about something like that ?!?), I'd vote that the transformers internal is kicking in (or off, really) before "old Nelly" can do her stuff. Let her smile from a shelf somewhere ...


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Reckers said:


> Best guess at this point is that your tranny's circuit breaker pops sooner than your antique. The important issue is that, as you said, you are protected. At this point, your insatiable curiosity forces you to follow T-Man's suggestion and open it, posting pics for all of us to see. OR...you say to yourself the following mantra: "Antique...rare....good money....don't need it....don't risk damaging it." Either is a viable approach.:thumbsup:


Just like when I was a little boy and had a brand new pen. Gotta find out how it works. I can't let it go. I'll open it up and take some pics later today and post.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

*My Bad*

Well I figuired it out. Yesterday when I wired it into the track, I made a mistake and wired it in series to the accessaries lug on the transformer. Today I wired it in series to the track. It still won't break before the breaker in the transformer but that's ok. When I manually broke the circuit it worked as it was supposed to. Shut off power to the track and the light lit up. I will probably wire it in permanently since it would be a back-up to the breaker in the transformer. So it was my bad. Didn't wire it into the correct side of the transformer.

I don't think the train runs like it used to. It has never had the motor re-built. I have found brushes online for it through Grossman's. I am not sure what all I need to rebuild it. Any sugguestions?

Thanks for all the help. Here are a few pictures of my set-up. It's the same as it was in 1953 when Dad set it up. However, I did rewire the whole track a couple of years ago.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Pics too large to upload. Sorry.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

more pics


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey Willsarv,

That's a nice layout for the space ... the "figure 8 nested within the oval" give you the ability to switch back and reverse train direction.

You may find that a good cleaning of the motor might breathe some new life into it. Use a bit of Radio Shack Electrical Contact Cleaner spray (with one of those super-tiny red straws that lets you squirt in just the right spot), along with lots of Q-tips. Get out all the gunk, and clean the electrical contacts, brushes, and armature (if you can get access to it). Then, when all is clean, a few TINY drops (with a toothpick end) of a light oil onto the gear teeth, axel ends, etc.

See how all that does, then maybe consider new brushes if it looks like they're worn down considerably.

TJ


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

The brushes seem to worn down quite a bit so I will replace those. I haven't found the copper plate that the brushes make contact with. Not sure of the correct term for that. Is it possible that the E-2 ( again, not sure of the correct term - reverses direction) needs replaced? Would that make the train sluggish? I remember when I was much younger that the engine if ran alone would come off the track at full speed. Not even close anymore. Not that I want it to run that fast, just seems like it chugging along a lot slower than yesteryear. But so am I!

Thanks for the help.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm a Lionel newbie, and I know even less about Marx, but ...

I would think that any fault in an E-unit (reversing unit) would have NO effect on a train being sluggish. The e-unit simply reverses the polarity of the electrical leads going into the motor (armature, etc.) itself.

In Lionel lingo ... there's "rollers" that pick up power from the center rail, then transfer this via a copper "contact plate" to the motor. Then, there are also "brushes" that transfer power into the spinning armature, itself. You might want to check BOTH the rollers, contact plate, brushes, etc.

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Good call, TJ. He's right---the e-unit won't affect your speed. I'd start by making sure you are getting the power you need: if you have a multimeter, read your voltage out there in the fringe areas of your track. It's possible you're starving for volts because your track pins and surface aren't conducting well. Once you know you're actually getting the spark, move to the engine. Start at the pickup roller and your wheels: clean all surfaces well and polish them smooth, if you can. Work your way up through any connection areas to the motor. Then get into cleaning the copper contact plate in the armature and so on. I like a simple pencil eraser for that, incidentally. Clean, and lube as you reassemble.

Finally, new armature brushes means new springs. They get fatigued and don't do the stuff they're meant to be doing.


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

I have gone directly from the transformer to the contacts and no difference. I have cleaned the brushes and armature. The brushes have worn at a funny angle. Not sure how much they are actually worn since I don't know how long they were to begin with. I am going to order new brushes and springs and see if that helps. It did seem to help some when I cleaned the brushes and armature. 

How much voltage should I be getting at the track? The transformer say 13 volts. I'm getting a little over 12volts at the transformer and the track.

Do you know if I can get a new armature plate anywhere? It has some groves in it. Not sure if that is hurting or not but it's not completely smooth.

Thanks


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

That armature and the brushes are probably your culprits. I've heard a voltage drop of one volt is about right when comparing transformer output to the voltage in the track at a distant point.

Back to to the armature. I use AF stuff instead of Lionel, but I think it very likely you can order a replacement armature from Lionel or your LHS. In the meantime, do you have a dremel tool or something similar? If you're planning on replacing the armature, you have nothing to lose by trying to polish the grooves out of the contact plate. If you're going to do that, go whole-hog and see if you can sand your brushes down flat on the ends, too. T-Man or Ed might tell you not to listen to me, and trust them if they do. But if they don't see a reason not to, and you're replacing the parts if it doesn't work, why not give it a shot?


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## willsarv (Mar 5, 2010)

Reckers said:


> That armature and the brushes are probably your culprits. I've heard a voltage drop of one volt is about right when comparing transformer output to the voltage in the track at a distant point.
> 
> Back to to the armature. I use AF stuff instead of Lionel, but I think it very likely you can order a replacement armature from Lionel or your LHS. In the meantime, do you have a dremel tool or something similar? If you're planning on replacing the armature, you have nothing to lose by trying to polish the grooves out of the contact plate. If you're going to do that, go whole-hog and see if you can sand your brushes down flat on the ends, too. T-Man or Ed might tell you not to listen to me, and trust them if they do. But if they don't see a reason not to, and you're replacing the parts if it doesn't work, why not give it a shot?


This is a Marx if that makes any difference. 

I did clean up the brushes and armature and it did help some but it's not like it used to be.

I also checked again and I have 11 volts at the transformer and about 10.5 at the track. I have several places on the track that have pick-ups wired in so I am getting about the same voltage all around the track. The transformer says it's 13 volts. Do they normally put out what they say?

Thanks


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

If it's a Marx, don't rush into any changes on the armature or brushes---I'm not sure what parts are available. T-Man, Shaygetz or Ed would know. They are walking encyclopediae. 

That said, I'd still recommend a gentle dremel dressing on the contact plate of the armature. I'm not talking cleaning...I'm talking dressing the surface with a buffing wheel and a little compound to smooth them down. Those grooves cause your brushes to make intermittent contact with the plate, so your motor is probably starving for volts. Best advice, though, is see what the wise ones offer before moving forward. As for the transformer question, I'd also refer that to them. My guess is that with age comes a lack of performance. My ex-wife surely thought so.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It's old and needs to be run. Flaten the brushes get good tension and polish the armature. The wheels may need cleaming also. Woud like to see a motor picture too. I looks likes a great little engine.


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## boatman44 (Feb 22, 2008)

it's a slightly different topic, but I wonder if you or anyone else has an idea of where I can buy low cost resettable circuit breakers about 3amps...so that I can install them in the track feeder wires from the bus. I plan to add an led in each line too so that if the breaker opens the light goes out and I know where to look for the problem I'm using a 5amp DB150 Control panel from Digitrax, so I want the breakers to faila t lower than 5ams at the feeders  Thanks for any help, in advance.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

How's this?

3A Thermal Panel Circuit Breaker


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## boatman44 (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm looking for something in-line, not panel mounted...and I need about 20 of them. I did find one electronics outlet that has a 1-2.5 amp one....resettable...15 cents each.....I might try them....I mean for $3 it's worth a try  Thanks for the suggestion though


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Remember, many times you get what you pay for...


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## boatman44 (Feb 22, 2008)

so true  and sometimes, with careful, diligent shopping, you can find the exact item you're looking for.


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