# Am I Crazy?????



## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Okay, so I decided to check further for "Rust(T-Man, you were right!)"

You can see by the photo, there was considerable rust everywhere that was not visible without taking it apart.

I'm glad to say, "NO BROKEN TABS!"

The whole engine needs stripping, repainting. What do ya'll think? Can it take the "Engine In a Bag" treatment? Oven cleaner did a great job on some of y other projects!

I'm concerned about some areas that have substantial rust. Do I need to get all the way down to shiny? Or is smooth good enough? Will the Rust-Oleum retard any further corrosion?

Any thoughts about Paint Colors/Decals?


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Forgot the pic!*

Lots of rust


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That's nothing! 
It will clean right up with scotchbrite, You May want to use the maroon HD stuff. Light sanding and prime. Start now, and you buy all your engines that way. :thumbsup:
those tabs are heavy duty.
The hardest part will be deciding on satin or gloss black??


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Stillakid --

OMG ... we were just talking about this, and you said that this was likely a "don't touch it". I guess you couldn't sleep soundly at night, huh?

Well, looks like she came apart in pieces just fine. And I'm surprised (naive knowledge on my end) to see that the red-gray painted sideboards come off as separate pieces. As do all of the chrome pieces. That'll certainly make service/repaint a bit easier.

The metal tabs all look fine. Nice work.

I've gotta go back and look at your sideboard pics in the other thread, but I'm wondering if maybe you'd consider repainting all of the primary black components, but leave the red/gray sideboards original. Strip/prime the back sides, of course, but leave the finished front face original? I think that would highlight the vintage/character of the loco. I don't maybe ... maybe rust prevention is critical. T-Man ... thoughts here?

Do you guys have any magic sources and/or tips to tackle re-chroming?

Stillakid -- PLEASE keep the pics / progress reports coming ... this looks like a really fun restoration project!

Good luck,
TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ, there was rust in the sideboards. The painted, outside areas also were beginning to to rust beneath the paint

The parts are all taking a "Shake-N-Bake" bath as we speak

I'm not sure about the color scheme. I've never used an air brush and really don't want to invest lots of $$$ in a system I'm not ready to master yet. For now, I'll stick to spray cans and some hand painting. 

Testors has some really neat colors, some nice metallics that are bright and shiny. I'm leaning towards that for the side pieces, with the main components in a black satin. There are also some great decals available, and since this will be for my own enjoyment(not a collector piece), the possibilities are endless

I've read all the postings regarding tin restoration. Anyone have some advice regarding the hows of painting from a bottle? Best paint? Thinning? Type of brush? etc., etc., etc.!

Thanks for all the help and encouragement:thumbsup:

Jim


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> I'm not sure about the color scheme. I've never used an air brush and really don't want to invest lots of $$$ in a system I'm not ready to master yet. For now, I'll stick to spray cans and some hand painting.
> 
> Testors has some really neat colors, some nice metallics that are bright and shiny. I'm leaning towards that for the side pieces, with the main components in a black satin.



I just finished a restore on a 2056 steamer... Testors model train division makes a color called Engine Black It comes in both a 1oz bottle and a 3oz spray.... its more of a very dark black gray and is a match for most of the postwar black steamers.... I got a can of black sandable rust-oleum as a primer after the oven cleaner bath and soap wash.... dried it under a 300 watt shop lamp (Watch out you don't do this to anything plastic) primed... touch up sanding... then 2 light coats of engine black and back under the lamp to dry. 

I also use the bottle to hand touch up scratched or nicked engines and tenders


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks Rich!
Is that sort of a, "Gun Metal" color?
How many cans of spray do you think I'd need for three 2-6-2 steamers?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the tips on the Testors paint ... I cut-and-pasted your comments into my little "words of wisdom folder" !

How is that Testor's paint from a durability and chip-resistance standpoint? Any paint will chip, I guess, but I've used some (bad) ones in the past that flake off with not much impact.

TJ


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Thanks Rich!
> Is that sort of a, "Gun Metal" color?
> How many cans of spray do you think I'd need for three 2-6-2 steamers?


If you click on "engine black" in my post above it will take you to the testor site with a sample of the color. it is not glossy and has a finish between flat & satin with a dark black gray color. I would think 1 can would be good, but having a spare so you dont end up short is always good insurance.

it seems strong and is a lot "harder" then the original lead based paint. it resists those thumbnail dents and best of all... if you do happen to scratch it... you can touch it up. I do highly recommend the high heat drying method. it makes the finish look exactly like the original... sorry for the quality.... taken with my phone.... this weeks project is better pictures and making a video car

Here she is in all her glory.... took a bit of artistic license from the original paint scheme


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Looks Great!

Now if I could only make up my mind...............:laugh:


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Stillakid ...

Maybe paint it PINK ... those post-war "girlie girl" locos (2037?) that Lionel made go for big bucks these days!

Kidding, of course ...

Rich ... that Testors paint sound GREAT ... it's on my list!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

TJ...............................
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

As you can see, she's been stripped, Scotch-Brited, soft-wire brushed, sanded with 400 grit, and there are still some areas of rust.

Will the Rust-Oleum primer stop the rusting process? There is also some rust on the front and underside of the cow-catcher. Would a clear acrylic take care of that too?

Tomorrow, another bath, but with mild, soapy, water. Hot rinse, blow dry and primer. I only have a 250 watt heat lamp, but so far 12 hours under that did okay for the 2026's. What do ya'll think?

And before I forget, Should I paint each of the parts individually and assemble? Should I not paint the tabs? I'm going to paint the draw bar also. It's got the worst rust. When I re-install, no rivit, just a nut and bolt, and I'm going to put some fiber washers instead of metal. 

More soon


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

My (naive haven't been there, done that) two cents ...

Nice progress. Do you have any access to muriatic acid (HCl) in diluted form? (Hardware store should have some.)  That might help tackle those tough-to-get areas of remaining rust. If you attempt, always work with high dilute concentrations for first attempt, going stronger (less dilute) as needed.

In general, I like Rustoleum primer. I seem to recall that Krylon has their own rust primer, too?

If it were me (dohh!), I would prime/paint each component individually, tabs and all. Try bending the tabs (before prime/paint) back to their "closest position that will still allow re-assembly". Chances are that some paint will still crack/fleck off at the tabs when you do your final/full assembly bend, so perhaps some touch-up needed.

Crazy thought ... instead of painting tabs, maybe dab a thin layer of roofing tar on them, where they be not seen inside the body? The tar might stay flexible and fully adhered during the final bend. Crazy thought, though.

As for clear finish on the "shiny" parts ... I've tried a few things on bare metal in the past: polyurethane, acrylic (water based), nail polish, and sometimes airplane dope. All will help stop rust if they adhere OK, but it's tough to get any of them to grab on to bare metal over the long haul. Depends on how much use/abuse you expect.

Before any prime or paint, I usually like to wipe down bare pieces (raw wood, raw metal) with denatured alcholol just prior to primer. It help to remove any traces of oil, and it evaporates quite quickly. Do NOT use this on any acrylic paint, though, as it will disolve the finish.

I've never tried the "heat it up first" method, but that sure makes good sense to me.

Are you going to try to paint each side (top, bottom) of each component separately, letting them dry inbetween ... to avoid having to hold/jib them to access all sides at once? Might help. Primer usually dries fast, so doing so doesn't add too much project time.

On second thought, I think this is only 1-cent advice.

Good luck!

TJ


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

Definitely paint everything (including the tabs) separately, otherwise you will end up with some metal being exposed and it will start rusting again... In the past, I have used Rustoleum products both for primer and for final coat


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> Will the Rust-Oleum primer stop the rusting process? There is also some rust on the front and underside of the cow-catcher. Would a clear acrylic take care of that too?


The rust-oleum sandable primer will give you a thin coat that will protect the bare metal, BUT, it is designed to be sanded so it is not durable. What it will do is 3 major things 1) give you a even color so that you can see any dents or imperfections in the surface. 2) this even color also helps you produce an even color top coat. 3) it Bonds very well to bare metal, so it provides a strong bonding surface for the paint and allows it to flow smoothly and evenly over the surface.

As for left over rust. Iron oxide is extremely hygroscopic... it will suck moisture out of the air. The moisture oxidizes the iron, which in turn attracts more moisture, and so on. that's why iron and steal seem to be eaten up by rust. 

Putting anything on the surface that blocks moisture will stop rust from forming on the metal surface, but if there is already rust there, then there will be moisture trapped under the paint. also rust is not a stable surface for paint to grip to, and will eventually flake off.

Rust-oleum makes two basic types of metal primers... The "Primer" usually goes on thick and dries slowly... it seals the metal and gives the top coat something to stick to. Mostly used in applications where the top coats smoothness is not so critical, such as out door metalwork and such. "Sandable Primer" goes on thin, and also seals the surface, plus gives the top coat something to stick to & drys quickly. As the names says its designed to be put on, sanded, re-coat, sand, re-coat, and so on till the surface is smooth. mostly used in automotive body painting.

For us, the thin coat is what we need. there is a lot of tiny detail work that can be lost in the heaver "Primer". so that would be your best bet. you can also use it to fill in some of the pitting left behind by the rusting.

Prep work is looking good... will love to see the finished lady out strutting her new look


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

B&M/TJ/Rich, wow, that's some fantastic information
There are areas that are rough and it's not just from rust. I guess i the machining process the metal is gripped and there are what appear to be clamp marks along some of the edges. I've managed to lightly separate some of the pieces that are bent to form joints(just enough to get sandpaper between them) and sanded between them to.

I'm going to follow your suggestions;

1) wipe down with denatured alcohol
2) paint each piece individually(insides 1st-then outside), and I'll wear gloves when handling
3) tabs will be painted and touched up after assembly
4) I'm going to use, "Plasti Dip" for the tender draw-bar. It's in the worst shape and will get the most use.
5) I'll use my 250 watt heat lamp to dry between coatings

Since I'm not turning this into an original restoration, I'm considering painting the cab(has faux doors, windows, ladders and riviting) side pieces and main boiler in different colors. Perhaps add some detailing and decals.

Anyway, so far it's been a real learning experience, and T-Man's right, you can get hooked!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The guy that paints my Bethlehem Steel stuff says he boils the plastic shells in soapy water to remove all the paint.

I never heard of that before has anyone else?


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## Boston&Maine (Dec 19, 2007)

big ed said:


> The guy that paints my Bethlehem Steel stuff says he boils the plastic shells in soapy water to remove all the paint.
> 
> I never heard of that before has anyone else?


Yes, I have, and I have actually done it before with detergent on some prewar pieces... It removed most of the paint but left small amounts here and there (maybe I just did not leave it in long enough)... I think it may only work for paint with lead in it, but I am not sure...


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

"... boils the PLASTIC shells in soapy water ..." [emphasis added]

Wouldn't that be a risky thing for the plastic? Boiling point of water (at std pressure) is 212 deg F. I know a few guys on the forum have comments about baking plastic components (I'm guessing 300 deg F ???) with some melting / failures.

I friend of mine tried to clean some plastic Legos via boiling in water. Melted many of them!

All different types of plastic with different mechanical properties, of course, but I'd tread very carefully down this road.

TJ


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Rich T --

I've cut-and-pasted your latest comments above into my "tips" folder ... again! ... words of wisdom there. Thanks!

TJ


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Primed*

She's primed and appears to be in great shape. should I sand and give another coat of primer? I primed the backside of the cowcatcher because of rust. 
Here are pictures..........


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't think it could hurt. Your loco has sheet steel that's essentially flat, so a slight paint (or primer) buildup doesn't run the risk of hiding molded detail. Make sense?


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Rich T --
> 
> I've cut-and-pasted your latest comments above into my "tips" folder ... again! ... words of wisdom there. Thanks!
> 
> TJ


I'm honored... thanks, glad I could be of some help


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> She's primed and appears to be in great shape. should I sand and give another coat of primer?


A light sanding with 400 or better still 800 wouldn't hurt.... 800 will gum up quick if you don't use it wet.... so watch that you don't gouge the primer with caked up paper.... the idea is to just buff the surface to a semi-gloss, not to cut through back to bare metal.... you will also spot surface imperfections better since the deeper areas will still be dull....


Ok I admit it..... I used to do car refinishing


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*Some decals(?) and touch-up=Done!*

I've got to admit, working with Tin Trains is a "Hoot!"
Learned alot about painting(thanks to all of you!), and though I think it looks okay, I sure would like to learn how to get a deeper, smoother, finish. Not into air brushing, so I've got to learn how to do the, "Hand Finish" process.

All things, considered, it was Fun, Instructional, and a Challenge

Thanks for all the help:thumbsup:

NEXT?:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

Stillakid said:


> I sure would like to learn how to get a deeper, smoother, finish. Not into air brushing, so I've got to learn how to do the, "Hand Finish" process.


finish painting is an art form in and of itself... when I used to do cars I was involved mostly in the prep work... layers of primer and sending mostly.... 

I must say it is an impressive looking engine and one you should be very proud of.. can't wait to see your next project


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks Rich! I appreciate your encouragement

Seeing what everyone elses finished product looks like, I think it will take me several more attempts before I can even approach that level of achievement. I really need a couple of more less complicated paint jobs before I tackle those 2 Alcos. I want them to "shine!"

The "Boss(wife)", suggested I go buy some el-Cheapo models and learn that way(she's always looking for a less expensive way for me to have fun!)

Thanks again!
Jim


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Jim,

Sweeeeeeet! Very, very nice. I LOVE the two-tone red cab and black boiler look ... perfect theme for an old tin toy.

Questions ...

1. How did you get the chromed (?) smokestack things and handrails so shiny? Dremel wire brush? You didn't paint or clear-coat those, did you?

2. Any tips you can offer all of us on dealing with the tabs, once primed and painted? Did you have problems with paint cracking / chipping once you had to bend the tabs back into position? What "bender" device did you use ... just a small piece of wood or something like that?

And then this general thought, really for anyone tacking restoration work to ponder ...

I LOVE the history of these old-clunker toys (Marx, Lionel, etc.), and think that we're all doing some future generations a service by investing our t.l.c. now to bring some life back into these relics from the past. However, when I hold an old Lionel, I can't help but wonder (in vain) who held it in the past? Was it a family with lots of kids? Did it come out to play at Christmastime? Etc.

And it's likely, of course, that our future generations will be asking those very same questions when they ponder our restored treasures that someday find their way through time to them.

So how do they answer those questions? Well, family stories and lore, perhaps.

But here's my (longwinded) suggestion:

Use a word-processor program to type up a little narrative about you, your family, your interest in trains, and why/when you chose to restore this particular train. Print it out in small font on a small piece of paper, then tuck/tape/secure it inside the locomotive ... essentially creating a little time capsule for some (unknown?) person way down the road to "discover".

Put yourself in their shoes ... wouldn't we all be thrilled if every time we opened up an old clunker we found a note that told us who/when/why?

Anyway ... TJ's babble for the day ...

TJ


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## Reckers (Oct 11, 2009)

Jim, you did a terrific job on that one---I'm really proud of you!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> essentially creating a little time capsule for some (unknown?) person way down the road to "discover".


that is a really good idea... they make little vinyl pouches the you could put inside, someplace safe, and have it available for the future. what I have been doing with my repaints and with structures is putting my name and the date in a light colored paint on the inside were it can not be seen unless you take off the shell or look inside.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

All, "Great Ideas!"

My son and daughter know the history behind all the trains that were mine as a child. I've spent time with my oldest grandson & grandaughter, telling them stories about my trains, and how my father(he was a Greek immigrant), would sit on the floor and play with them for hours!

History, can often be, the sweetest memory you can share!

Thanks All


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

*TJ's questions...*

TJ, I was afraid to use my dremel on the chrome pieces. There was rust, but I used one of my wifes buffing files(don't tell her, she thinks she lost it!)

As far as the tabs, I did what T-Man said to do, and there were no lost tabs:thumbsup: Very little pressure, and very slowly work them back. Same thing re-tabbing. No, the paint didn't crack, but I'll still have to go back and touch them up. There is some loss from just working them into the slots(everthings a bit tighter with new paint)

Since I still have a Marx engine with no cover, I'm thinking of picking up a partner for her. Maybe an oppisite color scheme:laugh:

I LIKE TIN!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Stillakid said:


> As far as the tabs ...
> there were no lost tabs
> slowly work them back
> the paint didn't crack, but I'll still have to go back and touch them up.


:thumbsup: All fab at the tab dab lab! :thumbsup:


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## RichT (Dec 21, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> :thumbsup: All fab at the tab dab lab! :thumbsup:


that's too funny..... did that just pop into your head TJ?


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

The problem is, there are TOO many things that pop into my head ... all those voices ... all those voices ...

TJ


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The engine came out great!

A buffing file? HMMM I will have to look into that. I like the results.


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## Stillakid (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks T-Man


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