# New Layout New House... Stay HO or go with N ?



## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

It’s been a while since I’ve posted on this forum. I started an HO layout several years ago and with the help of many folks on this site (thank you to all of you again) was able to get trains running. I learned some stuff but never completed the setup before we ended up moving and had to scrap everything. 

I’m at the point where I’m starting to think about setting up a new layout but I’m having a hard time deciding what route I want to take. I have a lot of my HO stuff but I’m thinking of switching to N due to space. My ultimate goal is to run multiple trains where one or two could run a continuous loop (passenger train) and then have other sections for yards / industries. Just as before none of this is going to be period / realistic it’s just the processes of learning and getting everything laid out and working on it with my son who is now almost 7.

Considering I have upwards of one or two thousand already invested in HO it’s hard for me to decide to move away. I’m currently in negotiations with the boss on using our spare room in the basement because it can be locked away from guests but have not received final approval. With that said, the only real spot that I can think I can do this in that location.

I’m looking for suggestions from members who have switched from HO to N or why I should not switch. I know HO provides more detail, easier to handle, etc. specially with the younger kid helping out here and there but the space makes it complicated.

If anyone can give me ideas of a layout I would greatly appreciate it.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

With the 2 doors and what looks like a closet door as well, I would stick to building something in the center of the room. That will give you access to both doors and the closet, which will probably please the "boss". I think that you can comfortably get a 5 x 10 ft or even 5 x 11 ft table into your room. Here's how I'd position a 5 x 11 ft table:








You can find plans for 5 x 10 or 5 x 11 ft HO scale railroads that are very interesting. So if I were you, I'd stick to HO scale and find a 5 x 10 or 5 x 11 ft layout that you like and build that. I would also recommend looking at all the various 4 x 8 ft layouts out there. Some are really clever and selecting one and expanding it to 5 x 10 ft would allow broader curves to run larger locomotives. You've got so much invested in HO scale that it would be a shame to give that up since you'd never be able to sell it for anywhere near your cost.


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

Before you go with a flat table, please look into 'open grid' and 'L girder' benchwork !! There are videos and books on it..
One is "Model Railroad Benchwork" by Linn Westcott...It's easier than it might sound and allows you easier grade construction and access later on to wiring and trackage in tunnels from underneath scenery... An around the room/walls or shelf layout is another approach...


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

I never thought about a table in the middle of the room. The door in question in the corner is for an electrical panel and thankfully i've only had to flip a breaker a few times and that no longer happens since i put a sub panel in the garage for the table saw / etc.

To deal with the door i've thought about a few possible options. 

1. modular layout where I can move it down so i can keep the door as is still open the door. (i'm thinking about sections anyways just incase I need to move it again.

2. add another hinge to the door so i could swing the top half open to get to the breakers. I would need to have an access panel in the layout where i can pop it out and open the top half of the door to get to the breakers. 

3. Frame it out and finish it so the door is not even there but why do that? Every time I think about it I hate that option even more. It would still require an access panel in the layout and remove easy access to the space if I was in the need to do any serious electrical work.

4. I've watched some youtube videos (a lot) of layouts that have either a drop down section (usually a bridge) or a section that can be easily removed if prolonged access is needed.

Personally i'm leaning towards option 1. I'm building the benchwork and i know i'm going to build a workbench in sections on wheels. I'm still looking into the electrical part of this to wire-up using DCC.


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## bewhole (Dec 31, 2016)

I was thinking if you was to put the 4 foot end on the "Top" wall between 2/4L and 2/8R and put the 8 foot going down toward the bottom wall you possibly could get out of doing anything to the doors and you can get around 3 sides. I do not know if it will fit without seeing the actual room setup tho.
Good luck


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## 65446 (Sep 22, 2018)

*B*... Not sure. Have you decided modular ? I like that better than a solid flat board..Make the modules shallow enough to easily reach across them..Do, though, consider they stand tall enough to conveniently be looking across at trains the way we see them 98.7% time in real, not down at them from above..Some of that, yes, of course.. But include side viewing frame altitude or you could be bending down more than you expected or wanted. 
Get a gander at FREMO if you aren't aware of. 
Finally. Did you have any thought about my prior post ?
All the best, *M*


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## Patrick1544 (Apr 27, 2013)

Personally I prefer HO due to detail and my eyesight is not what it was.


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## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

bewhole said:


> I was thinking if you was to put the 4 foot end on the "Top" wall between 2/4L and 2/8R and put the 8 foot going down toward the bottom wall you possibly could get out of doing anything to the doors and you can get around 3 sides. I do not know if it will fit without seeing the actual room setup tho.
> Good luck


I agree with this suggestion. Add a scenic divider along the middle of the table and you can have separate scenes on each side.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

HO and N both have advantages and drawbacks. Only you can decide what is best for your situation. 

I model in HO/HOm because I like the amount of detail I can have if I work at it, and the amount of detail available on locomotives and rolling stock. My eyesight is not what it was when I was 30 and HO/HOm is easier to see (and handle) too.

I would like to have chosen N for the 11'x13' room I have my layout built in. I could have really created a wonderful trackplan with that kind of space, but the trade-off was not worth it to me.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)




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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Folded dog bone.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I would think about replacing the swing door with a set of bi-fold doors. Especially one that moves to the left.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I would be cautious about blocking access to a power panel, with a layout such as Deedub's. Any inspector (electrical, fire what ever) would flag that. Thus you would need unrestricted aisles from both doors to the panel.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

They might flag it if they see it, but who is coming to inspect his house? Why would having to crawl under the table make it restricted? Impeded perhaps but still fully accessible.

It's his house. He should be able to do as he pleases without interference from a Government agency.


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

MichaelE said:


> He should be able to do as he pleases without interference from a Government agency.


 "ay, there's the rub;"
Hahaha...

BUT I tend to agree with Lemonhawk... just "axin'" for trouble, as they say in Memphis...


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

The only person inspecting the house is the wife  ... with that said i've decided the door is coming off. I'm going hang a curtain so there is no door to swing. I just need to leave enough room to be able to get there and flip a breaker when needed. I've been swamped the past few days and just got home a few minutes ago but plan on posting some additional pictures of the area since the room is empty now.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Its the inspection after the fire that is of concern.


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## SD40Tom (May 15, 2020)

I made the switch from HO to N scale many years ago, and have not looked back. Like your situation, I had limited space and this limits the radius of the curves you can use. For HO, it meant nothing more than 22" which makes a lot of larger locomotives and longer freight cars look awkward going around those curves. On the other hand my N scale articulated steamers look fine at that radius. It really depends on what you want out of the layout. You can build a very nice branch line with lots of switching opportunities in HO, or you can model more of a double track mainline in N. Either way, figure out what interests you the most and go from there! Good luck!


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## Chops (Dec 6, 2018)

My 2 cents is to remember that anything more than 24 inches of reach, in any scale is a major hassle. Anything you can crawl under now, may be a major pain in the knees and back in a few decades.


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Thanks everyone with the input. I re-downloaded AnyRail and i'm working on re-learning it since it's been a few years. i'm sure i'll be back on here very soon asking for assistance. I think i've made the decision to stay HO and just need to figure out how to make what I would like to have work.


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Thankfully I’ve taken this slow and after showing the wife the possible layout design for the den my better half decided that she really did not want the path to the electrical panel blocked. 

The outcome is that I’m now in the main basement living space. IMHO, this is great because it gives a larger space with possible room for expansion depending on how everything goes. The negative is that I need to take into consideration how everything is setup now and how we plan on eventually having the basement setup so sit back for another long post and please provide any feedback you have.










As you can see from the image above the basement is large but the area I have is limited to a 18ft by 4ft cove if you will. The wife says that the trains must be hidden or possible to be hidden. 

In the basements current configuration it is out of the way and could meet one of the wife’s requirements for it to be hidden assuming usage of a curtain to give the “movie” area a “move theatre” feel (don’t get me started). The smaller side of the basement is currently reserved for the kids stuff. Eventually, the goal for the bigger side is to have a bar, open area for pool table / ping pong table, etc. with the “theater” moved to the smaller side with new cabinetry where the kids crap can be put away. Between the small side and the den the kids will have their space and the adults have their own. I can upload actual pictures of the space if asked.

Hopefully the above explanation lets you know how the space is currently being used and the future plan for it. The future plan is realistically one or two years away.

*Layout space / goals …*

The space I’m in now is about 18ft by 4ft. I expect to kick out a bit more than 4ft on the ends so I can have my Amtrak locos run in an outer loop for continuous running if I opted to do that when guests are over and the kids want to see the train run. I’m thinking of making the ends about 52 inches but looking for recommendations. The minimum radius for the amtrak accella that I have is 22 so i think by going 54 inches I could have two loops going with one at 24 and another at 22 or 20.








Some have asked previously what are you modeling? This is where I ask for folks to not be judgmental. I’m not modeling a specific time period or location. I’m modeling for fun. A few years ago I started with a layout but ended up scrapping it since we moved and I’m starting from scratch but I’m trying to put more thought and research into this and take the advice that was given to me before which is not to cram as much track just because. Many thanks to CTValleyRR for the help then and others.

Eventually if the better half allows or if one day I decide to start digging my own hole the layout could easily expand to the other side of the pole which gives me another 8ft. It's not a stretch to think that will happen. 

*Benchwork / track design…*

I do not anticipate having to move the layout nor do I plan on moving anytime soon but I don’t want to make the mistake I did previously and build something that cannot be taken apart of moved if needed. For this purpose I plan on building in 2 sections of 3ft x 4ft and 2 sections of around 52inches x 4ft. That would give me a width of 16ft and depth at the ends of each side of 52inches with the middle depth at 36inches. 

I’m looking for thoughts on how to best connect the sections together both physical and for wiring. 

I thought about using bolts to bolt each side together. Each section would be on casters so when everything is attached I can move it forward / backward to get around the entire layout. 

From a wiring perspective I’m thinking about having one main bus that would connect each section to each other and then a sub bus that would have all the feeders to the track. This way if I had to take the thing apart from a wiring perspective there are two wires connecting each section to each other. Any thoughts on how to best achieve this?


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

hopefully i'll begin benchwork build next week since I have the whole week off. I'm still thinking i'm going to still to HO scale but i'm in the process of getting all my "stuff" out to really see what I have / don't have and make a decision there. It would be much easier to switch to N scale if I knew the train shows would be up and running again where I could go out and scavenge for stuff w/o breaking the bank. Only if they had an Amtrak Acela in N scale that would make the decision must easier.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

I think the better location is the alcove lower right of the larger area - beside the under-the-stair storage. There's a post there which doesn't make that area that useful for anything else? Plus it's an area that could be easily concealed with drapes.


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## deedub35 (Jan 29, 2014)

Folded dogbone so no duck unders or lift/drop bridges to deal with.


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## SD40Tom (May 15, 2020)

I used bolts to connect my sections together, first I clamped them to make sure they were level with each other, then drilled thru both and put two bolts thru, holds it together very well, but easily removed if you need to. For the wiring, you can either use screw terminals or there are several types of connectors you can use, i know that Ntrak portable layouts use something called a Cinch Jones connector for their portable modules. Good luck with your project! 

Tom


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## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

I built my layout in modules and connected them very simply, with clamps for the bench work and wire nuts for the power bus.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

brob2k1 said:


> It’s been a while since I’ve posted on this forum. I started an HO layout several years ago and with the help of many folks on this site (thank you to all of you again) was able to get trains running. I learned some stuff but never completed the setup before we ended up moving and had to scrap everything.
> 
> I’m at the point where I’m starting to think about setting up a new layout but I’m having a hard time deciding what route I want to take. I have a lot of my HO stuff but I’m thinking of switching to N due to space. My ultimate goal is to run multiple trains where one or two could run a continuous loop (passenger train) and then have other sections for yards / industries. Just as before none of this is going to be period / realistic it’s just the processes of learning and getting everything laid out and working on it with my son who is now almost 7.
> 
> ...


brob2k1;

My first trains were O-27 gauge Lionel & Marx. As a teen I modeled in HO-scale, and as an adult, I've been working in N-scale for over 40 years. (I'm 72 now) So I have the experience of switching scales a couple of times, that you were asking about.
There are no bad scales, they are all good. There are a lot of misconceptions about scales, particularly the two you mentioned, HO & N. (See the attached file, "Choosing a scale" for more info.)

The two "differences" you mentioned, "provides more detail" & "easier to handle" are both only partially true at best. You can buy beautifully detailed locomotives and cars in either of these scales. You can also add detail in either scale, but the range of detail parts in N-scale is limited, so you may end up making your own details from scratch. "Easier to handle", well yes, the HO model is obviously, twice the size of the N-scale one, but I have not had any more difficulty handling N-scale models than I did with HO-scale . There is an initial period of major attitude adjustment whenever you switch from any scale to another one. However, once you re-calibrate your brain to whatever new scale you adopt, that quickly becomes your new "normal" and the old scale then seems either "huge", or "tiny", depending on which way you shifted.

Unless you have truly serious personal health issues with eyesight, or manual dexterity, you should be able to operate equally well with either HO or N. One other common misconception is that comes up often is the notion that "You can get twice as much railroad into the same space by switching from HO to N." Well, yes and no. If you used the exact same track configuration, then you could at least come close. But you might not want too. I use 16" radius curves as a minimum radius on my N-scale layout. That's not much smaller than the 18" radius curves used on a lot of HO-scale layouts. I switched from a 12" radius up to 16" because my 2-8-2 Mikado steam locomotives stayed on the track reliably with the 16" and not-so-reliably on the 12".

That brings up another thing. Are you a big steam fan? Well really, what model railroader isn't? 😊 Perhaps I should ask, do you plan to run a lot of steam locomotives on your new layout? There is little steam selection in N-scale, except for the pretty extensive line of steamers made by Bachmann. Now I'm not a Bachmann fan. I had Bachmann locos years ago and they were junk. I read here that Bachmann is much improved, but if you're a die hard steam fan, you might want to stick with HO-scale.

The flip side of the "You can get twice as much into the same space" notion is that you can get the same railroad into half the space. Again, yes and no. It depends on what you run, and how crowded you want your layout to look.

Your room looks challenging, with all those doors. I normally promote sectional shelf layouts around the walls (see files), but you would need a lot of moveable sections to do that. Duck unders (yech!), lift outs, drop down, or tilt up. The attached file 3&4 "How to build a better first layout" addresses the advantages and disadvantages of these systems near the end, starting with "sketch #4.

For your room, I'm inclined to agree with Mark's suggestion of a layout in the middle of the room. John Armstrong in his excellent book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" shows a clever idea for fitting a 4' X 8' layout (or other rectangular tables) into a corner. The corner in the lower left of your room would work well. It has no doors, and the layout would stick out at 45 degrees to either wall. That way you could get to either side of the layout without moving it. Section 2 of "How to build a better first layout" mentions Armstrong's idea of cutting 45 degree slices off both sides at one end of the plywood, and attaching the cut off pieces to the other end. The 90 corner created by this cutting fits directly up against the tow walls that form the corner of the room. The other files have more information on model railroading topics. Hope that helps.

UPDATE: With the new ruling from your local representative of the estrogen supremacy society, (aka wife 😄 ) I am changing my recommendation from "something in the middle of the (smaller) room" to modules around some/all of the walls. The files below explain how this can be done simply.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 🙂


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

brob2k1 said:


> Thankfully I’ve taken this slow and after showing the wife the possible layout design for the den my better half decided that she really did not want the path to the electrical panel blocked.
> 
> The outcome is that I’m now in the main basement living space. IMHO, this is great because it gives a larger space with possible room for expansion depending on how everything goes. The negative is that I need to take into consideration how everything is setup now and how we plan on eventually having the basement setup so sit back for another long post and please provide any feedback you have.
> 
> ...


I suggest making your sections/modules smaller, 2' x 4' is a good size to fit on the work bench and make things easier on your back, & other body parts. 2' x4' sections can be bolted together to make larger assemblies, 4' x 4', 2' x 8', or whatever. They are also small enough to fit in most cars, for when the train shows start up again. You will be able to show off your work, if you want.
You are wise to make the layout sectional. Few people plan to move, but most of us do, and you've already had one abandoned layout.

One form of sectional layout that just might, maybe, if your very lucky, get wifely approval to be seen, is a bookshelf design that I use. The top shelf can store books, kid's crap, or wife's knickknack collection, or whatever. The sections have a furniture finish and front glass or plexiglass panels to keep dust & kid fingers out. The photos show one such section from my layout finished, and a side view of an unfinished one showing the top shelf.

My five year old grandson has an N-scale layout, and he handles it just fine.
I think Kato makes an Amtrak accellea train in N-scale, but check www.walthers.com to see. 

Traction Fan 🙂


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

@deedub35 I hear you but the side that you are talking about is where we are planning on putting a bar. I already have the water / etc. in that location so that's a no go.

Here are actual pictures of the location I have in pink in the diagram ... 








.










deedub35 said:


> Folded dogbone so no duck unders or lift/drop bridges to deal with.
> View attachment 551409


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

traction fan said:


> I suggest making your sections/modules smaller, 2' x 4' is a good size to fit on the work bench and make things easier on your back, & other body parts. 2' x4' sections can be bolted together to make larger assemblies, 4' x 4', 2' x 8', or whatever. They are also small enough to fit in most cars, for when the train shows start up again. You will be able to show off your work, if you want.
> You are wise to make the layout sectional. Few people plan to move, but most of us do, and you've already had one abandoned layout.
> 
> One form of sectional layout that just might, maybe, if your very lucky, get wifely approval to be seen, is a bookshelf design that I use. The top shelf can store books, kid's crap, or wife's knickknack collection, or whatever. The sections have a furniture finish and front glass or plexiglass panels to keep dust & kid fingers out. The photos show one such section from my layout finished, and a side view of an unfinished one showing the top shelf.
> ...


@traction fan thanks for the advice. You were very helpful on the previous layout. I actually read through all of the .pdfs that you posted up several weeks ago and got some of my ideas from them. The primary reason for me choosing N scale over HO would really be spacial. I don't think i'd try to cram more track if I did go N scale. I'll need to make up that decision within the next week or so but first trying to determine the space and mess around in Any Rail.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

SD40Tom said:


> i know that Ntrak portable layouts use something called a Cinch Jones connector for their portable modules.


True, but those connectors are rather high in the electrical resistance category. You might want to look into these:
(5) #120: How to Install Anderson Powerpole connectors - YouTube


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

flyboy2610 said:


> True, but those connectors are rather high in the electrical resistance category. You might want to look into these:
> (5) #120: How to Install Anderson Powerpole connectors - YouTube


@flyboy2610 that looks interesting. I've never used them before and looking up some more youtube videos on them.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Don't scrimp on the crimping tool built specifically for Power Poles, the right tool makes things much easier! Also i've bought Power poles from Banggood, takes a few weeks but good prices.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Why does your wife tell you the trains must be hidden, or capable of being hidden? 

Don't forget workbench space you're going to need too.


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Lemonhawk said:


> Don't scrimp on the crimping tool built specifically for Power Poles, the right tool makes things much easier! Also i've bought Power poles from Banggood, takes a few weeks but good prices.


Very true. I have a collection of crimping tools and don't think I have one for Power Poles. I have not fully decided what to go with but do you or anyone else have pictures of how they have used them on their layouts?



MichaelE said:


> Why does your wife tell you the trains must be hidden, or capable of being hidden?
> 
> Don't forget workbench space you're going to need too.


Michael, you know what they say keep the wife happy and you'll be happy. It's not that she wants it hidden but would prefer it to be somewhere that the mess of the build can be set aside when guests are over. Not that with COVID much of anyone comes over but before it we would have weekly gatherings of neighbors / friends / etc. and she basically does not what **** all over the place. That and the fact that I have a 7 year old and 2 year old it would be nice to keep it "hidden" when not being worked on so the baby does not destroy it


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