# 4X14 Layout Please Critique



## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

I have a 4'X14' space for a layout in my garage. It is HO scale. This is the design I have come up with and I would like some feedback on it whether good or bad and if there are any improvements that could be made. 
The outside radius is 22.5" and the inside radius is 20". 
All the turnouts are #4 peco. 
The green track on the Right will be tunnels and the buildings will be on top of those hills. 
If you have any questions please feel free to ask and comment. 

Thanks
Joe G


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

That is certainly a serviceable layout, especially since you seem to like (or at least want the option for) continuous running. A couple of things do stand out, though (from MY perspective, which isn't necessarily going to agree with your own.

In no particular order:
1) You have no way to turn trains. Everything runs one direction (counterclockwise?) all the time.
2) It looks like you used some flextrack and some sectional pieces. Why not use all flextrack?
3) Why the break in the tunnels in the center? Tunnels are difficult to make realistic in the best of cases -- most of them are too short and too shallow, and a real railroad would just cut through the hill.
4) You don't actually have many rail-served industries. The grocery distributor is really only served by one track; ditto for the saw mill. The extra tracks in these locations don't appear to have a way to transfer cargo from the cars to the industry. Central Gas should be more-or-less parallel to the track if it is going to be rail-served.
5) Your trains can't go anywhere. You can pick up logs at the sawmill, but where do they go? To the Army base? Where do the groceries for the distributor come from? The gas? Passengers could just as easily walk from one passenger station to the other. The way I (personally) would address this is just to run a divider / backdrop down what is now the center of the street, and run it into the big hills at the right side. Flip your streets around so that they are in front of the buildings, with the backs of the buildings against the backdrops. This way, trains will disappear from view to the other side, creating the appearance that they haul goods to some distant point, or arrive from one.

Your layout, your decisions, just my thoughts.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm a novice at layout design, but a couple of things come to my mind.

1. You have an extra siding outside on the army base that does not appear to have a purpose.
2. If you go with CTValleyRR's suggestion of a divider, you will need to move the police and fire at the left end to the the other side of the divider/street -- so that each town has its own police and fire.
3. A yard that size needs a yard office, and a fueling station for you locos -- maybe with sand, too -- assuming you are modeling the diesel era. (I'm a steam guy -- I would be thinking water tower and coaling station.)
4. You could move the MOW area across the divide, adjacent to the yard -- so that they are in the same town.
5. Try and figure out how to link the two towns. For example, you could add a lumber yard to the upper-left town, that accepts lumber from the sawmill in the lower-right town. Or you could create an industry in the lower right town that delivers heavy military equipment to the army in the left upper-left town.

Just my suggestions.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

I do appreciate your input, I like to hear everyones perspective. I have this skin so I don't offend easy. Ill try to answer your questions and me some sense of how I was thinking. 

1) You have no way to turn trains. Everything runs one direction (counterclockwise?) all the time.

This is a problem that I did not think about. Your correct. I was thinking of running 2 GP's one forward and on in reverse to combat that issue.

2) It looks like you used some flextrack and some sectional pieces. Why not use all flextrack?

They only reason I have both track types is that I haven't gotten around to changing all over to flex track. I already have a lot of flex track on hand.

3) Why the break in the tunnels in the center? Tunnels are difficult to make realistic in the best of cases -- most of them are too short and too shallow, and a real railroad would just cut through the hill.

I once saw a layout that had a tunnel with a brake in it and I thought it looked pretty interesting. 

4) You don't actually have many rail-served industries. The grocery distributor is really only served by one track; ditto for the saw mill. The extra tracks in these locations don't appear to have a way to transfer cargo from the cars to the industry. Central Gas should be more-or-less parallel to the track if it is going to be rail-served.

As for the industries, the lumber mill would service off cite industries and end up int he main yard as a holding place until they are reloaded by the off site industry. The grocery distributor would service the cafes in town which would be the track closes to the stores on the upper lest side. The other stores would be serviced by trucks. 

5) Your trains can't go anywhere. You can pick up logs at the sawmill, but where do they go? To the Army base? Where do the groceries for the distributor come from? The gas? Passengers could just as easily walk from one passenger station to the other. The way I (personally) would address this is just to run a divider / backdrop down what is now the center of the street, and run it into the big hills at the right side. Flip your streets around so that they are in front of the buildings, with the backs of the buildings against the backdrops. This way, trains will disappear from view to the other side, creating the appearance that they haul goods to some distant point, or arrive from one.

The divider suggestion would be a good idea. One I haven't thought about. It also might work because my wife wants to make different seasons. The Army base is another industry that I would sever off site in the main yard just like the lumber mill. 

Your layout, your decisions, just my thoughts.[/QUOTE]


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

1. You have an extra siding outside on the army base that does not appear to have a purpose.

I was going to use that track as a holding track. 

2. If you go with CTValleyRR's suggestion of a divider, you will need to move the police and fire at the left end to the the other side of the divider/street -- so that each town has its own police and fire.

Thats a great idea!!

3. A yard that size needs a yard office, and a fueling station for you locos -- maybe with sand, too -- assuming you are modeling the diesel era. (I'm a steam guy -- I would be thinking water tower and coaling station.)

I am in the diesel era so a fueling and sanding station would be a great idea. I also have room for it on the approach to the engine house. 

4. You could move the MOW area across the divide, adjacent to the yard -- so that they are in the same town.

I think Ill do that. I didn't like where the MOW tack was in the first place. 

5. Try and figure out how to link the two towns. For example, you could add a lumber yard to the upper-left town, that accepts lumber from the sawmill in the lower-right town. Or you could create an industry in the lower right town that delivers heavy military equipment to the army in the left upper-left town.

That is very true. I will look into doing that, also it would give me more switching ops. 

Thanks for your suggestions I appreciate your time and help. 


Just my suggestions.[/QUOTE]


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

IF you are going to be running DCC, and you do want to have
the capability of turning a loco around, you would upset your
whole town design, by connecting the spur to the Army Base
with the ladder track in the lower side of the layout. It would
require some realignment. And would, of course, require a
reverse loop controller.

Don


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## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

A single reverse loop could go between the fire sta. and the gro. dist. and tie back into the spur off the main line.

Also, a double crossover somw where would allow a complete circuit of both loops without resetting any switches, if you would like to do so. My 0.13 rmb.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

DonR said:


> IF you are going to be running DCC, and you do want to have
> the capability of turning a loco around, you would upset your
> whole town design, by connecting the spur to the Army Base
> with the ladder track in the lower side of the layout. It would
> ...


I will be running NCE DCC. If i do need to make a reversing loop I think that where you are talking about is the most ideal spot.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

cid said:


> A single reverse loop could go between the fire sta. and the gro. dist. and tie back into the spur off the main line.
> 
> Also, a double crossover somw where would allow a complete circuit of both loops without resetting any switches, if you would like to do so. My 0.13 rmb.


I agree that would be a good place, or I could go from the Army base ladder to the main yard ladder.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

How realistic you want things to be is entirely up to you. No real railroad would just haul goods over those short distances. That's why I suggested a scenic divider.

Just to clarify some of my comments that obviously weren't as clear as I wanted them to be. My comment on the tunnels is that they're already short. A break would (could) look cool if you have more room to work with, but with the space you have available, the hills are going to look like a pair of upside-down ice cream cones sitting on the end of the layout. Incidentally, don't put a brake in your tunnel -- that's the last place you want to stop trains! :0

As far as the sidings at the grocery distributor and sawmill go, you only have 1 track that can really serve these industries -- the others have no facilities for loading or unloading (although I guess you could use a crane at the sawmill), and no room between tracks for any kind of a platform. Especially in the diesel era, they would use a high level platform and a forklift.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> How realistic you want things to be is entirely up to you. No real railroad would just haul goods over those short distances. That's why I suggested a scenic divider.
> 
> Just to clarify some of my comments that obviously weren't as clear as I wanted them to be. My comment on the tunnels is that they're already short. A break would (could) look cool if you have more room to work with, but with the space you have available, the hills are going to look like a pair of upside-down ice cream cones sitting on the end of the layout. Incidentally, don't put a brake in your tunnel -- that's the last place you want to stop trains! :0
> 
> As far as the sidings at the grocery distributor and sawmill go, you only have 1 track that can really serve these industries -- the others have no facilities for loading or unloading (although I guess you could use a crane at the sawmill), and no room between tracks for any kind of a platform. Especially in the diesel era, they would use a high level platform and a forklift.


Im not totally opposed to the divider I can just place the buildings against the divider and the road in front of them. I was going to use my hole imagination on this layout being that I don't have a lot of room. 
As for the grocery and saw mill. I could make the inside rails for the propane drop off with pipes along the inside of the rails!?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

If you do the divider - you can make the town look larger by layering flats and low-relief buildings (rather than full depth bldg) against the divider.

Is this against the wall or out in the middle of an area? How much aisle space are you providing around the table?

If you're providing 24" clearance around all sides (I wouldn't go less) then you're taking up a minimum 8x18 area with that table. Have you considered thinking outside the rectangle? You can put a LOT of railroad interest/operations into 144 sq ft.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> If you do the divider - you can make the town look larger by layering flats and low-relief buildings (rather than full depth bldg) against the divider.
> 
> Is this against the wall or out in the middle of an area? How much aisle space are you providing around the table?
> 
> If you're providing 24" clearance around all sides (I wouldn't go less) then you're taking up a minimum 8x18 area with that table. Have you considered thinking outside the rectangle? You can put a LOT of railroad interest/operations into 144 sq ft.


The layout is in the middle of the right side of my garage. I have to keep it in the middle because I have shelves that line the walls of my garage. I have 24" all the way around the layout. 
I would like to have a 8x18 but I can't fit it anywhere in the garage with my wife car still using the left side. I might be able to fit a 6x14 but it would be right up against the door of my wife car and Id have to move it out anytime I wanted to access that side of the layout.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

JoeG said:


> The layout is in the middle of the right side of my garage. I have to keep it in the middle because I have shelves that line the walls of my garage. I have 24" all the way around the layout.
> I would like to have a 8x18 but I can't fit it anywhere in the garage with my wife car still using the left side. I might be able to fit a 6x14 but it would be right up against the door of my wife car and Id have to move it out anytime I wanted to access that side of the layout.


Ahh...OK - with the shelving already against the wall that foils my suggestion.

I would still recommend making it a little wider along the short dimension to allow you a larger minimum radius. Your engines will run more reliably (less derailments) and both shorter and especially longer engines/cars will look much better on the larger curves with less overhang inside and outside the rails as they negotiate the curves. 5ft wide would be plenty. If you ran inside curve 24" and outside 26.5" that would run much better and allow you to literally run any kind of engines/cars on your layout reliably. It would still provide for 3.5" to the outside edge of the layout as well. 

With the long run you have around the perimeter it would also be possible to have a staging level below the layout where you could drive cars/trains onto and off of the main layout level. This would give you more operations opportunity in the same sq ft area.

If you look at these pics, you can see how I created a tunnel around the outer edge of the layout where I planned a long run going beneath the table to go to staging. If you add a 6" wide channel around the outer edge to create this, you'd haver your 5ft width.

I've since torn this layout apart and started over due to a move.




























What I found is that until I built and ran something, I thought I knew what I wanted to build. I built the first one and quickly bored of it. When we moved I started over and went bigger, but now I'm going to be tearing that apart and using the pieces to make yet a larger layout in a dedicated room in the basement.

Don't be surprised (or disappointed) if you build it and still aren't satisfied. It happens a LOT in this hobby.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

JoeG said:


> ... being that I don't have a lot of room.


4x14 is a pretty respectable size for a layout. Many of us don't have the time or money to build these basement or garage filling empires.



JoeG said:


> As for the grocery and saw mill. I could make the inside rails for the propane drop off with pipes along the inside of the rails!?


I'm not sure I follow. Of course, you can build a loading rack (or buy one) for the propane dealer. The main concern was with the grocery distributor and saw mill. Unless you're only shipping propane into them (which would be odd), there is no room for things to be loaded and unloaded on the parallel tracks. The uppermost track next to the sawmill could be served with a crane (although a heavy-duty fork lift would be more common). For the grocery distributor, I don't see how you can load and unload boxcars or reefers on any track but the one closest to the building. You would need to separate the tracks by more like 3" and put some kind of a loading dock / platform in between.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> Ahh...OK - with the shelving already against the wall that foils my suggestion.
> 
> I would still recommend making it a little wider along the short dimension to allow you a larger minimum radius. Your engines will run more reliably (less derailments) and both shorter and especially longer engines/cars will look much better on the larger curves with less overhang inside and outside the rails as they negotiate the curves. 5ft wide would be plenty. If you ran inside curve 24" and outside 26.5" that would run much better and allow you to literally run any kind of engines/cars on your layout reliably. It would still provide for 3.5" to the outside edge of the layout as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great information. I have already changed the layout a few times and I haven't even built it yet so I can see where your coming from when you say I might get bored with it as I build it. Thanks for the pictures and help.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> 4x14 is a pretty respectable size for a layout. Many of us don't have the time or money to build these basement or garage filling empires.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I follow. Of course, you can build a loading rack (or buy one) for the propane dealer. The main concern was with the grocery distributor and saw mill. Unless you're only shipping propane into them (which would be odd), there is no room for things to be loaded and unloaded on the parallel tracks. The uppermost track next to the sawmill could be served with a crane (although a heavy-duty fork lift would be more common). For the grocery distributor, I don't see how you can load and unload boxcars or reefers on any track but the one closest to the building. You would need to separate the tracks by more like 3" and put some kind of a loading dock / platform in between.


As for the saw mill I think I will take your advice and use a crane or forklift to move the lumber. 
I have made some changes to the grocery distributer (GD), the closest track to that building will be dedicated for the GD, the middle track can be a car building track or holding track, and the third track will be my MOW track. Does that make it more fluid (or getting closer at least)?


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I think that will work much better, yes.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> I think that will work much better, yes.


Thank you for your help, its been a great learning experience and a big help.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

After sending my layout design to a professional that has a business that creates layouts for anyone that wants one which is functional and more "prototypical" this is what he came up with. 
He kept the same industries that I had on the layout already, he jus placed them in a way that is more functional. He also sent me a Operation Report that describes how a "prototypical" train would run on my layout. 
Let me know what you think!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Very nice. I see that the view block is a prominent feature.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> Very nice. I see that the view block is a prominent feature.


Yes, I thank you for your help. Both of you had the same ideas, which helped me get to this point. I like the view blocker I just could visualize it before. So thank you again for your help.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

MUCH better now.....Nice layout design.


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## JoeG (Feb 3, 2013)

sstlaure said:


> MUCH better now.....Nice layout design.


Thanks for all your help and suggestions Scott. Talking to everyone on this thread was a big help. Thanks again!


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## OceanRailroader (Jul 26, 2016)

My Old Train set layout was similar to this before I replaced it with building a major city of high rises. Over all it's a good layout.


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