# Hand-laid turnouts from a first-timer



## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

As a newbie to the field of hand-laid turnouts, I thought I would show some pictures of my results and provide some notes on the pitfalls I ran in to. I had already collected the essential materials (bare rail and PC ties), but after visiting a train show this weekend and picking up someone else's turnout creation, I decided it was time to get started making my own.

To begin with, when I designed my layout I decided to throw all the standards pieces out the window and lay the track in the shape I wanted, rather than trying to follow any existing manufactured pieces. While this gave me a lot more creative freedom in my design, it also means that I'm out of luck using standard templates or toolings. Everything has to be built from scratch, but I'm ok with that because I love building things.

The first thing I needed was a paper template to work from. Keeping in mind that the first piece I build of new things is generally not my best work, I opted for something simple -- a basic turnout done in the style of Atlas where you just have a curve diverging from the straight mainline. I am working with 18.5" radius curves and will have a number of this exact piece building up my yard ladder. There are programs such as Templot exactly for this purpose, but it has a steep learning curve and I've barely looked at it yet. Failing that, I turned to the program I'm using to design my layout - XTrkCad - which I found prints lines to the inside rail dimensions. I've been working with it for a couple years now, so while it isn't specifically designed for creating turnout templates I knew enough to fake it. I dropped in my previously designed turnout, then added extra lines outside the rails to create an outline of my intended turnout. As I discovered last night, the printout doesn't need to be exact, it just needs to be close enough to give you a reference. The most important part here is that you have a reference for the stock (outside) rails, and the right angle to use for building the frog point.

I spent a lot of time agonizing over where best to place the PC ties. Mostly you just need them in places where they will support the rails and keep them in line. You end up using more near the frog because there are so many small pieces there. I started out with three ties and added two more later.

Next up was forming the stock rails. I found it was easiest to work on the points at the same time so I could get everything to fit together nicely. Form your diverging rail so it retains the proper curve, then figure out where you want the point to sit. I ended up starting mine too far back, and had to move them about 1/8" closer to the frog. Your point needs to start slightly after the curve in the rail begins, not right AT the beginning of the curve. This became apparent once I started trying to fit the point in place and couldn't make enough clearance between the tracks for the gauge tool to fit. There will be a lot of filing involved in tapering the points, and I took out a lot of the material using a belt sander. You also have to remove material from the stock rails so that the points will fit snugly -- for this I took off the bottom of the rail completely but barely touched the head of the rail. One last thing to consider is that the point which follows the diverging path will be curved, so it will sit against the stock rail for a MUCH longer length. I had to rework my straight stock rail after it was soldered on the PC ties, which made things harder. So after much time-consuming work, I had stock rails and some rough points to begin building with.










I used some existing track to work out the location of the ties, with the most consideration put towards where my points would end at. You don't want the end of the points sitting on a tie, and remember that the PC tie they get soldered to will float between two other ties. Once I knew my locations, I squared up the ties and taped them right to the paper, then soldered the rails in place. Here you will get your first chance to use gauging tools, as the two rails should be perfectly spaced right behind the points. Moving forward from the beginning of the points, just try to make the rails follow your pattern.

Up to this point, I've probably put almost 3 hours into the project. Keep in mind this is the first time I've built anything like this, and a lot of that time was spent just trying to sort out the details. Fortunately this process is much less critical than it seems, and there is a lot of room for error and correcting mistakes as you go along.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

So links I found useful.
http://www.westportterminal.de/H0-USA/turnout_1e.html




http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5125.0
The one I can never find is the one that uses the 1" belt sander that also shows making cheap frog jigs. I also didn't not like how the frogs are made in the video, too much soldering. I only make the exiting V then after its placed wrt the outside stock rails, I work on the pint rails.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

The next step is the frog. The most important part here is getting the right angle, and getting a nice sharp point. If you are working from a paper template, the angle you see needs to be cut in half for each piece so that together the pieces form the full angle.

Start by forming any curves that you need. I once again used the belt sander to take down the bulk of the angles, then finished up with files. I should probably touch on the filing process, since a great deal of time spent on the stock rails and points thus far was in filing. If you just file straight down on the side of your rail, you will eventually break through the side of the rail leaving only a small nub of head and base. A trick I found was to give the rail a slight outwards bend at the place where the point should end up. This gives you more of the center to work with in that spot so you don't file away the parts that you need. Unfortunately I hadn't ready that yet when I started making my frog, so the tips of the pieces were left with a very thin membrane of metal where my point should be. As you are filing your pieces, it is also important to try and keep the rail square. I sighted down the rail as I worked to check my progress. File a little, check the fit, file some more. You want a flat file that is both fine-toothed and sharp. Dull files tend to create more rounded cuts, and you want your pieces flat so they fit together nicely.

Finally I got my frog pieces to where I thought I wanted them. I haven't made any jigs to hold pieces, so I printed another template, set my pieces right on the paper, then put a spool of wire on top of the rails to hold them in place. I added some solder to the point, then checked the angle. Had to make a small correction, but once they were in the right position I added more solder to the point. After one last check of the angle, I painted the point with solder flux, added more solder to fill the back side of the point, then used some fine tweezers to gently squeeze the tips of the point together while all the solder was melted. I also drew out a little solder onto the point to cover up the thin webbing left behind from filing through the sides. Solder shapes easily, so once it cooled I washed off the flux and used a file to finish off the tip into a nice clean point.










Now we break out the track gauges again. At this point you are no longer following your printed template, but rather moving the frog point so that both rail paths have the correct spacing. I have three gauges that fit over the rails, plus the NMRA gauge, and I made use of all of them to find exactly the right position where the frog should sit. First I added a little solder to attach the point of the frog to a PC tie, then double-checked the gauge. When I was sure that was correct, then I moved my gauges further down the rails to make sure each pair were parallel with each other, then added solder at the last PC tie. Note I laid a scrap of the PC tie strip along the right side for the rails to rest on while I was soldering.










Getting the frog in the right position is probably your most critical measurement of the whole project. When soldering down the rails, don't ever move on until the piece is exactly right. The frog builds off the location of the stock rails, and the points build off the location of the frog, so take your time, keep a truck handy to roll on the rails and make sure everything looks good, and don't leave it until you're happy with it. In most cases once I have a rail in position and tacked in multiple spots, I'll go back and coat each spot of solder with some flux and reheat the joint. The flux will let the solder smooth out and flow in between the rail and PC tie, providing the most surface area for the joint.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

@Lemonhawk - yeah I think I've seen that one, and I do like how they made the wood jig for holding the points in place. I may make up a jig at some point, but I wanted to see what could be done by hand first. I know a lot of people like to fill in the bottom of the frog, but from the reading I've done and what I've seen with my own first test, a well-formed turnout shouldn't need that.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Yes the key is getting that frog V in the right place. Your making a curved turnout, but when I was making straight turnouts, one of the mistakes I made was not getting the straight stock rail straight! You then end up chasing that error in the rest of the build! If you use a PC tie for the throw bar, I found I had to go to a high silver content solder due to the strain on the point to tiebar joint. Another reason I went to Proto87 stores points (not the actual proto87 museum type). If you plen on powering the frog you have some leeway in where you make the gaps on the exiting V part of the frog. I also tried to have PC ties on either side of the frog gaps.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

All right, one more entry and I'll be caught up with what's done already...

The last difficult bit of building the turnout is the points, and it is here where your previous experience with the track gauges will be put to the test. To support the points, I had to add another PC tie just in front of the frog, and another just after the points, placed just after where the long signal support ties will go (see picture below).

I started with more work on shaping the points, making them fit better against the stock rails. The straight path was easiest, so I worked with it first. Once I was close, I figured out where to make the bend at the frog -- ideally the two rails will almost be touching when you finish, with the guard rail running perfectly parallel to the frog point. Make the first bend, adjust as needed, then make the bend for that last little bit that flares out. DO NOT cut off the rail length until you've made all your bends! Once the rail fits nicely in position, then cut off the length.

Now you have a nice short piece to work with that you can set flat on the PC ties and really fine-tine how the point fits against the stock rail. This is where I found my first mistake, expecting the points to begin earlier than they actually can. Despite having a really thin point filed down, the track gauge tool would not fit between the rails. If you're like me though, you didn't get the frog bend in the perfect spot, and you actually have a little wiggle room to play with. Between sliding the point a little closer to the frog, and some light filing on the inside of the head of the rail, I finally got my point to lay nicely inside the track gauge. Running a truck over it showed that the wheels could roll through the point without catching, and I was finally ready to solder the point in position.

A couple of notes here... First, do not solder your points to that new PC tie that was added near the tip of the points. These rails should only be soldered to the three ties located around the frog. When you solder the rail down, give it a very slight twist so the that point is pressing against the stock rail. Not much, you only want it to stay there by its own spring action. Also, check the squareness of the rail one more time -- after all the filing to create the point, mine had developed a slight twist. I also found that the point was bent slightly away from the stock rail, so using pressure from my thumb, I created a slight bend towards the stock rail. By the time I finished the point sat very squarely in its little pocket.

Break out a pair of track gauges and use them to set the final position of your point. Also note the clearance at the frog - the rails can be almost touching at their base and still be within spec. Again solder the rail one tie at a time, re-checking as you go to make sure the alignment is good. After I soldered the first tie, I removed the track gauges, checked the clearance at the point once more with the NMRA gauge, and rolled the truck across the point to verify smooth action. Also check that the truck rolls across the frog with no problem, and visually sight down the rail to ensure the point rail in perfectly in line with the frog rail. When it all checked out, I put the gauges back on the rail and soldered it to the other two ties.

Now comes the tough one... The diverging point needs to be curved to follow your template, and that curve should come gently into the stock rail. This was where I found my second problem -- I had not cut the pocket in the stock rail long enough for the curve of the point to fit snugly into it. I ended up removing the PC tie under the end of the points so I could file away more of the base of the stock rail. Once this was close I again made the bends at the frog and cut the rail to length. Note here that if you make your frog bends evenly on both points, the bends should be right beside each other. Mine did not, but it still works fine.  Once the piece is cut, you can do the final filing and shaping to make the point fit perfectly into the stock rail. And because this point was curved, I had all kinds of twists to deal with. The point itself was twisted, but when I held the frog end flat on the PC ties, the point raised up above the stock rails! It took a lot of twisting and bending and re-checking the actual curve before everything sat perfectly flat. Whew!

Again break out your track gauges and get the point in its final position. You can move the other point in a little to give clearance for your gauges on the diverging path. As you can see from all of this, following a template is not too critical because after the stock rails are in place, all other rails are positioned by the gauges and not by your template. As you solder this point down, give it a slight twist so it springs into place against the stock rail. The amount of pressure should be equal on both of the point rails.










And all of the sudden you realize, you pretty much have a turnout!!!

Check the new path with your gauges and truck. Make sure the truck rolls smoothly through the frog following both paths. I had to use a small file to slightly shape the diverging path of my frog, but letting the truck roll through both paths is smooth. If I try to push the truck through the diverging path with pressure towards the frog, the front wheel will try to roll up onto the frog. This won't be a problem once the guard rails have been added though, and as I said, simply rolling the truck through the frog, it track smoothly every time. I finished up by filing the top of the rails flat around the frog, and there were slight dimples created when I bent the rails.

Now I mentioned before about not needing to fill in the bottom of the frog with solder if your turnout was built cleanly. If you get a really close look at it, your wheel will actually roll across multiple rails as it crosses through the frog. With a close tight fit of the point rails to the frog point, the wheel barely even dips as it passes through. And without the filling, you can run older pizza-cutter wheels through your turnout. Here's a final close-up of my frog...










And a shot of the points...









Tonight I'll get the points soldered to a thinner piece of PC tie. I also want to try and get the guard rails added, and I may need to add more PC ties to support them. To finish up, I need to get a jewelers saw and cut the rails at the frog for electrical isolation, and cut gaps in the PC tie copper. All together, I've probably spent 6 hours so far building this first turnout, but now that I have a clue what I'm doing I should be able to build the next one in half that time.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I plan on adding another PC tie immediately to the right of the last one, and cutting my frog gaps in between them. The points and frog will pick up some power through contact with the stock rails, but I can't imagine that will be reliable for long-term use. I'll probably incorporate some kind of SPDT lever switch with my throwbar to provide a solid power source to the points and frog. The next turnout I build (dual-gauge!) will go into my test layout, so I can figure out the electrical part then.


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## 3.8TransAM (Jan 13, 2016)

Nice, this is on my things to do one day list.

Gathering info now.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Gathering info can be the hardest part. I had a hard time finding articles that did not immediately reply on fast tracks jigs or other manufactured equipment, which was rather surprising considering the DIY nature of the hobby. That's one of the reasons I wanted to put this together, to help remind people that they don't have to spend a small fortune on specialized tools to jump into this aspect of the hobby. Between the bare rails, PC ties, and multiple track gauges, I've still spent less than $100 to get started, and I have enough material to make at least a couple dozen turnouts.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Thanks for posting this stuff.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Well that didn't take as long as expected. Guess I'm getting more comfortable with working on this as I pretty much threw together the last pieces.

Lets start with the throwbar. This PC tie is only half the thickness of the regular ties, to give it clearance when moving.










The NMRA standards gauge has a side for the clearance around the points, but that was near impossible to hold on to while trying to solder the points to the throwbar. Instead I found a couple of flat toothpicks and wedged them between each point and stock rail to give approximately the right clearance.










Now it was easy to flow the solder in place, and I didn't have to worry about accidentally sticking the points to the stock rails. Make sure you get really good solder flow here... I see a lot of people mentioning this is a weak point after years of service, but you MUST keep all of the solder to the inside of the rails. Once finished, remove the toothpicks and see if the points remain centered. Remember how I mentioned earlier when forming the points that you wanted both sides to be pressing against the stock rails with equal pressure? Here is where you find out how well you did. If both point have the same tension, the points will remain centered, and you might even be able to shift them to both sides and have them stay in place. In my case, I have slightly more tension on the straight point, so it won't stay in place by itself when I set the points for the straight path. Ah well, not to worry, the motor for moving the points will keep them where I want them. The important part here is that the points can shift back and forth smoothly, without catching on anything. Use a truck to confirm the wheels will roll smoothly over your points in both positions.

And finally, we come to the guard rails around the frog. These don't have to be overly large, all you need is a guide as each wheel goes over the gap in the frog. I made mine only about 3/4" overall, and they ended up fitting nicely on the PC ties I already had in place. As with the frog, the bottom of the guard rails will nearly be touching the stock rails. I eyeballed the center of the guard rail by rolling a truck through and marking where the center of a wheel sat on the stock rail when the opposite wheel fell into the gap in the frog. Use the NMRA gauge again to position the guard rails, then add solder. These pieces are so tiny that they want to move around. I found I could drag just a hair of solder between the rail and PC tie on one side, which was enough to hold it in place but let me reposition the other end and solder it down firmly.










Once again I used the truck to test movement through the frog, and this time even with moderate sideways pressure the wheels stayed firmly on the rails.

Mechanically speaking, this turnout is now completed. The only thing left is the electrical isolation, cutting gaps between rails on the PC ties and cutting the rails to isolate the frog.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Found a jeweler's saw with a pack of blades on ebay and got that ordered. I wasn't really sure what size of blade to use, but this comes with a nice assortment so I can try them out. I also ordered some more track gauges, and I have an NMRA HOn3 standards gauge coming. Once all that arrives, I should be ready to go crazy with a dual-gauge turnout.

In the meantime, I've started planning for building one of those. Two full frogs plus a crazy crossing piece and three points. Add in a much larger number of guard rails, including one that has to be soldered directly to a moving point rail... whew! This one is going to be really fun. I think it's time to figure out how to make some jigs for filing and soldering my frog points so I can make them consistently. This piece will be going on my test board, and if all goes well then the next piece I make will be two very close turnouts built together as a single piece -- one that is fully dual-gauge, and the which is dual through the straight path but only standard gauge through the turn. Good times ahead.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I sometimes drill holes at the ends of the PC ties so the turnout can be secured with a track nails. If you do that you need to also put a gap on the bottom of the PC tie - besides the ones on the top. I also fill the track gaps with styrene - black if you can find it.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I'm getting started on the dual-gauge turnout and thought I would note down a few things that I forgot to mention the first time...

I've been buying PC ties from CloverHouse.com, who carries a 'modern' and an 'old-time' width. The old-time width (0.092") appears to be the correct match to both my Micro Engineering flex track and my Shinohara #6 turnout.

Ties start out at 1-1/8" (1.125) wide, just a hair over 8 scale feet. The centerline is at the 9/16 mark. If your turnout has a straight path, you can use a ruler to mark where one edge of all the ties should line up on your template.

Through the manufactured turnout, ties increase in width by 1/8" steps, and there are generally 3-4 ties in a row of a given width. When determining the width to cut a PC tie, I made a mark 5/32" from the end of my ruler. This line should be placed on the outside of one of the stock rails on your template. Then from the outside of the other stock rail, count out another 5/32". Now move outward until you get to the next even 1/8 mark on the ruler, and that is the length to cut the tie.

The spacing of the ties isn't quite so easy, as they don't line up in either imperial or metric units. It measures at about 15/64" between the leading edge of each tie, which doesn't make it easy to just mark them out on a ruler. I've been using a piece of flex track as a reference for the spacing, and marking 90-degree lines on my paper template to keep the ties running straight across the track.

Seems like everybody is selling 3/4" wide scotch tape these days, but if you can find some in 1/2", use that to tape down the ties. Alternatively (and I'll probably have to do this for my dual-gauge turnout), you can tape them down along the outside edge. Just try to keep the tape back as far as possible because you don't want it in your way while trying to solder the rails to the ties.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I realize this is going to put things out of order for anyone trying to follow along, but as I'm building my second turnout I wanted to document the things I didn't really touch on during the first one, or just fill in more details for those who want the information...

To begin with, the template printout. As mentioned before, I am laying down track pieces in XTrkCad, then adding outside lines to show a full outline of the track. This is helpful while building the first couple of pieces because it lets me see where my rails are supposed to be going, but that much detail isn't really needed. For my next pair of turnouts, I will use a print from an actual layout which shows me the *inside* line of each rail. All I really need is the reference, but otherwise track gauges are used to properly align all the rails. If you are doing something similar, you just need to know if your printout shows approximately the inside of each rail, the outside of each, or the centerline of each rail.

Now that you have your template, you need to start with some PC ties to solder the rail to. As you saw in my first turnout, I started with only three ties and added more as needed. This time I have a much better idea of where I need to put the ties. You can also see here where I have drawn a lot of notes on the page for the beginning and end of the turnout to fit into the existing track work, the location of the throwbar, and several vertical lines to keep the PC ties parallel (yes some still need adjusting before I solder in the stock rails).










I add a tie before and after the points, a tie on either side of where I need to make cuts for electrical isolation, and then I see if any other pieces such as guard rails might need more support somewhere. Remember that the copper will take a lot more work to make it look like a wood tie, so you want to keep these at a minimum, but you need enough to give solid support to all the pieces making up the turnout. Here's a closer show of just the ties, and you can see my drawings on the page a little better. Note how I drew along along the straight rail showing the location of the edge of all the ties -- this is 9/16" from the centerline and helped speed up placement of the ties.










Note that this turnout is dual-gauge. With three rails going through the piece, I have two full frogs plus a low-angle crossing. I'm starting out with 10 PC ties because of all the small pieces and multiple guard rails I am going to have to add here. Also there is no stock rail for the middle rail, from one side it turns into a point and from the other side it ends within the crossing.

So I'm getting started with filing the slots for the points into the stock rails now, and feeling like I have a much better grasp of what I'm doing this time. Also I will leave off the second tie from the right until after the points are in place, leaving myself room to do more filing on the stock rails if I need to.

The temperatures hit -10F last night... it's a good day to stay inside!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Something to keep in mind when doing more complicated crossings... you have to think ahead about what order to put down your rails. For example, consider this little bit right off the bat with my new turnout...










Normally you put down your outside stock rails first, with the notches filed into them for the points. Except here I couldn't put down the middle rail on the right until after I had built the middle rail / point combination rail to the left. Look at how the tip of the right rail ends near the curve of the point... I want to make sure I have the right gap between those two pieces, AND I want to make sure the straight sections are perfectly in line with each other. So I built the left rail first, fitting the point in place, and once that was soldered down I was able to properly file the left rail so it had the correct flangeway clearance. What you can't see here is that I also had to file the base of the rail so that when the point moved, it didn't hit the base of the inner rail. Now I'll move over to building both frogs, then finish the other two points, and wrap up with all of the guard rails.

You may have also noticed the rail joiners and extra rails on the far right... The turnout is cut pretty short because it will be butting up against another turnout on that side, but I added some scrap rail to the length so I could roll a truck over that first point to make sure it had a smooth fit before soldering it down.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I spike the ties down rather than tape them. For track gauges, some use "rolly holders". They are good for holding the rails in gauge, but being plastic you can't solder with them on the track.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Lemonhawk - I've been meaning to get a piece of homostote to work on, but for now the piece of paper is just laying on my computer desk, so there's no way to spike down the ties. I've seen a lot of pics of people using those roller gauges, but have not actually seen any for sale. The gauges I have are all brass though, and in some cases I'm actually soldering right in between the horseshoe.

Hmm that's a shame, I never got around to making a bracket for holding the angle of the rail while filing it for the frogs, and it's too cold out to be getting out the saws. Ah well, guess I'll do these by hand as well.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Try just using a piece of drywall. I use a small section of 1x4 cedar board. Fugate says drywall works at holding spikes - I just have not tried it.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

hmm might have to try it some time... of course I have to get a package of spikes first.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I keep reusing the spikes so a pack of 100 will last a long time. Find some really good spiking pliers.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Another night, another couple of pieces... I finished the first frog, and one of the guard rails finished off the standard gauge curved leg. A test with a truck shows good alignment -- I can roll it through pretty fast and the wheels stay on the proper rail even without any guard rails in place.










That last piece was tricky. Not only did I need to maintain the proper gauge with the standard curve, but also the left side needed clearance for standard wheels and the right side needed clearance for narrow gauge wheels. I had to re-do the bend in the rail three times to get it where I wanted, but it is coming out nicely.

On a side note, thank god for spell-check. All this typing of the words gauge and guard, how am I supposed to remember which one gets the A first? Driving me nuts...


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Well the second frog was fun. I had to keep fiddling with it to get the n3 rail in the right spot, as it kept going either too wide or too narrow. One nice thing about it, I can get things close and then file some rail to make a little extra clearance as needed. I also noticed a bit of a tracking problem on the curved side of the first frog, so again I did a little filing to get it more in line with the rest of the curve, and now both trucks are rolling through just fine. Once I get the guard rails in place, it will take up any remaining tracking problems.










Nothing left now but the points, then I can hook up some flex track on each end and run some full cars through to see how it works. After I finish up the guard rails and electrical isolation on this turnout, I'll be getting back to the electronics. I have some tiny stepper motors that I want to try using to throw the points, I just have to see if they are strong enough. Combined with a small lever switch, I can control the polarity of the frogs. Fun stuff...


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Nearly completed last night! All the rails are in place now, I just need to finish up the guard rails and make some adjustments.

One of the pitfalls in making points is that you can easily file right through the center part of the rail trying to get it to that nice fine point. I keep ending up with pieces that look like this:









OK this is fairly easy to fix. Basically I'll flow a little bit of solder onto the point, dip it in the flux paste, then heat again and draw the solder out from the tip of the point. This gives me a bit of solder that I can file to shape and make the point look nice and pretty again. Keep in mind you need to do this AFTER the point has been soldered to the throwbar, otherwise when soldering the throwbar you'll just melt all the solder off the tip again. Unfortunately now you need a very thin file to get in there and shape the point.

The best option is to try and avoid this problem to begin with. Before you start to file down your points, take your pliers and put a small end in the very end, away from the side you will be filing. This will look something like the small bends in the end of the guard rails. What it does is move the center of the rail outwards further, giving you more room to grind down the rail. Also remember to do some filing on the other side of the head (the side that the wheels ride on), and taper it smoothly in line with the rest of the rail. I've been using this method for both the points and the frogs on this new turnout, but I filed a little too deep on the point pictured above.










With the points finished up, I added the guard rail to the inside of the crossing area, plus a couple of small ones to match the gaps in the crossing. One thing I'm going to have to work on in the next piece is the amount of gap in the crossing. My standard gauge wheels go through just fine, but the narrow gauge wheels actually dip a bit into the hole. No problems with derailing that I can see, and it does make a bit of a clacking sound as they cross through, so hopefully once I get it added into my test track I won't discover any problems with this gap.










One last problem I need to clean up... The small guard rail on the straight line is too close to the point. The gap is correct by the standards gauge, but it doesn't provide any room for the point to move inwards. Essentially it has shortened the pivoting space of the point by about half an inch, making it that much harder to move. To fix this, I'll remove the guard rail tonight and file down the base of the rail to provide clearance.

Since there are two frogs and three rails, I have to add six more guard rails. They are easy to make, but I also file a small bevel on each end to catch any stray wheels, and that gets hard on the fingers.

Also I don't think I mentioned this before, but to finish up the piece I've been washing them down in the sink to remove all the flux. The water doesn't get all of it though, so I'll be going back and brushing it down with alcohol to remove the last of the stick residue. Finally, I'll go over the top of the rails with some 1000-grit wet/dry sand paper to clean up any remaining burrs and give the rails a nice polish.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I decided it is highly unlikely my current stepper motors will handle the force needed to switch this new turnout, so I found some others on ebay to try out. The new ones have a short range of only 5.5mm (I only need about 2mm), and a brass nut on a very fine-pitched thread. I can solder a wire directly to the brass to run my throwbar. With a slight bend in the wire for springiness, I can run the motor all the way in both directions to enure good seating of the points.

I also found some SPDT micro lever switches to control polarity to the frogs. With careful positioning I should be able to use the nut on the motor shaft to trip the lever.

It will probably take awhile for these parts to come in, so in the meantime I might start building the last two turnouts for my test board. These will be very tightly spaced together, so I have to build them as a single unit.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

That point problem is easy to get, but I think its best to make a new point rather than use solder. This is also why I went to the Proto 87 stores and bought their points, they conform to the rail and require no filing of either the point or the stock rail!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I finished up the last bits of the new turnout last night, and figured out how to work the jeweler's saw this morning to cut my gaps. Both turnouts are now electrically isolated, I just need to glue some styrene in the gaps and work out a switch to provide power to the frogs 










Because of the complexity of the dual-gauge turnout, the isolated portions along the curve are only about 1" in length, but the straight rail is nearly 2" long. I'm glad I planned on electrically switching the frogs, or my 0-4-0 would definitely have problems.










Really wish I could figure out why these photos are coming out so dark. I have three overhead lights shining on the turnouts here, there's no reason for them to be turning out so grainy. Ah well, yet another thing I need to learn about.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Say, maybe someone could help out with terminology, especially since there's a lot of crossover pieces in the dual-gauge turnouts? For instance, the two outside rails are called stock rail, and they are the only pieces that run the full length of each turnout, but are there other smaller pieces that would also be considered 'stock'? One of the points gets a bend and becomes the rest of the narrow-gauge rail, so it runs nearly the length of the turnout. The other two points also act as guard rails at the second frog, much like a single-gauge turnout. What about that long guard rail near the points that backs up the crossing area -- is that still called a guard rail, or would that be called something else in a crossing? Any other pieces that have common names?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Styrene has been finished and I scrubbed down the turnout with alcohol to remove the last of the solder flux. Tonight I started working on the steppers. Basically I wired up an L293D and have a simple piece of code that steps through each of the four inputs needed to run the motor. It worked briefly, then one of the wires broke. That's the problem when working with these really smaller steppers, they're so fragile. I'll have to try again tomorrow, it's getting late already.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Had more time to work on the stepper motor today, while the pork was cooking on the smoker...

First thing was I started working on a new stepper before I put in my contacts... I have excellent close-up vision without them. Got the wires soldered on to the microscopic pins without any problems this time. Once I figured out I had a resistor in the wrong place off of a transistor, I finally got some motion, but it was back-and-forth. A quick flip of two steps in the code and I was off and running!

Unfortunately these steppers don't have enough power to move my original turnout which has longer points (and less spring resistance). It definitely can't move my dual-gauge turnout with three much shorter points. It's a shame, because this particular one is available cheaply all over ebay, making it easy for everyone to get. However it WILL work great for adding motion to small items like crossing gates.

I did find another motor that seems beefier. The motor body is only 1mm larger in diameter, but it has twice the depth, which should mean much larger coils. The screw shaft only allows for about 4.5mm of travel, however my commercial turnout only has 3mm of travel in the points, so this one should work fine. The main thing I am looking for is a real fine thread pitch for torque, but also enough travel that the motor will seat the points firmly in both directions. Now I just have to wait for them to come in. If that doesn't work, the next larger motor option I found costs about $1.50 each (more than double the cost of the one I'm waiting on), but I suppose you have to pay for performance.

The circuit is pretty straightforward. I'm using an L293D for the motor driver, and with the addition of a pair of transistors and four resistors I am able to control the steps in either direction with only two I/O lines from the arduino. Eventually I want to transfer this to an ATtiny85, which is a small 8-pin computer chip that provides 5 I/O lines. Two lines to control the stepper, two lines to signal which direction to throw the turnout points, and the last line would control a red/green LED.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

What kind of linkage are you using between the stepper and the points?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I was just planning on using a short piece of piano wire, nothing fancy.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Connected like a Tortise? Most of the connections to the points seem to have some sort of springiness to them to keep the points buried against the stock rails and I'm having trouble picturing how you do this with a stepper motor.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Wow, amazing work! Thanks for showing us how you've been building this. I find it very interesting to follow.

Mark


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Since your using steppers for turnout control, here's one that might be useful.
http://www.banggood.com/6mm-2-phase...w-Stepper-Motor-p-1029736.html?rmmds=category
They are very small, and include a short lead screw.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

If I had all this knowledge, I'd never buy another turnout again.
So far, it's all too much to absorb for me. Good grief.
Maybe I just need to get an Oakridge kit, and give it a try.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I haven't actually seen how the tortise machines work, so I can't comment on that. I've been working on some ideas though...

For one thing, I used the jewelers saw to cut a notch in the base of both sides of the rail at the 'hinge' spot of each of the points. This one modification made a big difference in the amount of force needed to move the points on the dual-gauge turnout, but it is still too stiff to work smoothly with 0.020" wire, so I need to move up to something thicker.

Next up is adding some springiness to the wire itself, without compromising the pushing strength. I've tried bending a small loop, and bending a V-shaped section in the smaller wire, without success. Again I think I need to go to a larger diameter wire. Ideally with a small amount of spring in the wire, it should allow me to push and pull slightly further than the points actually move, and the spring in the wire would keep the points held firmly against the stock rails. There is still a lot of work to be done on this idea before I get it right.

I've also considered using a small lever to translate the 16mm of movement in the current stepper motors into a smaller 3mm of movement which would have a lot greater force. If I were to make the lever out of a heavier piece of piano wire, it would have a natural springiness as it rotates, solving two problems at once. The biggest problem I see here is that I am converting the rotational force of the motor into a linear force along the screw shaft, then converting it into a rotating force through the lever, and back into a linear force to push and pull the turnout points. Whew that's a lot of conversion effort! And yet, it just might work...

So as you can see, I'm taking problems that have probably been solved for the last century and reinventing my own solutions. It may be a crazy way to approach things, but I do learn a lot by taking this path.

@Lemonhawk -- That motor is nearly the size of what I'm using now... mine has a 7mm body, but not as much thickness to it. The new steppers I ordered are 8x8mm and hopefully will have more torque to them. If that fails, I also have some 10x10mm steppers coming. One of these has got to work.

By the way, there are a couple reasons with I chose steppers over regular motors. You can readily get them with a screw shaft, creating the linear motion needed for the points, while a regular motor would either need a gearbox or some kind of coupled shaft to connect a threaded rod (more potential for failure over time). In addition, since I plan on controlling the turnouts by computer, I looked at the electrical hookup required for each. A DC motor requires one line to control direction and a PWM line to control speed. With a stepper, I still need two lines to control it, plus two transistors and four resistors, however I eliminate the need for a PWM line to control the speed. In either case I would use the same chip to supply current to the motor. For all the benefits I get from using a stepper, it's worth the addition of the extra small components (which probably cost less than 50 cents all together). And the transistor/resistor components are using are the same pieces I have for controlling the direction of the loco motor (it's using the transistor as a basic switch, so the 0/1 input from the computer puts out either 01 or 10 to two output lines).


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

LateStarter said:


> If I had all this knowledge, I'd never buy another turnout again.
> So far, it's all too much to absorb for me. Good grief.
> Maybe I just need to get an Oakridge kit, and give it a try.


 That just means I didn't do a very good job of explaining the process. It's actually pretty simple, just time-consuming. If you have questions, please ask! I'm more than happy to try and clarify what I did.

It's funny, but I've spent more time trying to figure out how to control the points than what I spent actually building the turnouts.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Take a look at how switchmaster stall motors are mounted:
http://www.builders-in-scale.com/bis/sm-home.html
This might give you some ideas on how to get a spring in the wire. I like these because their forgiving in their mounting. From the top you drill a hole, and drop the crank wire in then underneath a little template that you can rotate around the crank wire tells you where to drill pilot holes for mounting. Nothing is critical where as mounting a tortise where its critical to mount so the actuator is going into the hole in the throwbar AND perpendicular to the track - way to fussy. With a stepper you need the lead screw but I think you could figure out how to connect the lead screw linear motion into actuating a switchmaster stile crank and I think you would have something that easy to install that well hidden under the track. My project is to use servos to operate a switch stand, operated by a Nano's that trigger off what the frog rail phase is. Again I have messed with mechanical linkage off the throw bar but its full of problems the least of which is that actually getting a 90 deg throw is impossible. Looking on with interest at your turnout building!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Whew! Well it's a very nice 1990's website, but I think I get the idea. Seems like they're using an adjustable lever made of piano wire, and using a geared motor for the movement. Does the top of the crank wire really go over the top of the ties on the turnout?

I'm not sure what you mean by a 90 degree throw?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

A few more annotated pictures. First one with the top crank buried under the styrene (lever drawn in pencil and in the red circle you can just see the top of piano wire








Then one that shows a vertical view. You get both the springiness of the leverarm and the torsion of the vertical part.









This last picture just shows the attachment of the frog micro switch. Again the hose clamp gives me lots of adjustment room.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

What size of wire are you using for your crank arm? As I mentioned the 0.020" wire seemed way too flimsy, so I'm not sure if I should try 0.025 or 0.030, or something even larger?


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The crank arm is 0.03" and use a 1/16" brass tube sleeve to give the vertical part a sort of baring. Figure E of the switchmaster instruction manual shows how to bend a "buried" crank. I think .025 will be a little too flexible.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

The 90 deg is for my switch stand flag project. Not to be confused with turnout construction or turnout machines.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks for that info, I'll pick up some .030 wire tonight and see if that works any better. Unfortunately my dual-gauge turnout is quite stiff, but that's probably a worst-case scenario. I may just have to learn how to make hinged points, but I do rather like the look on the continuous rail.

Would love to see pics of your switch stand as you build it. That's something I have to look into at some point as well.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

HA! Ran into my first problem last night. I decided to cut in that dual-gauge turnout onto my test track so I could run a train across it. I have a set of Tyco coal cars, some original and some modified, that I've been pulling around. Well as the train went across the turnout, I kept hearing what sounded like wheels being derailed, then I started seeing some cars rocking across the turnout... After a bit of investigation I finally figured it out.

Some of the Tyco wheels are noticeably narrower than others, and they are riding up on the guard rails. Since I used the NMRA standards gauge to build the turnout, the Kadee wheel sets were rolling through perfectly, and most of the Tycos were fine, but there were some where the inside wheel flanges are so close together that they wouldn't fit through the guard rails. Fortunately I had planned on replacing all of the plastic wheels with newer metal wheels, so this won't be a problem in the long run... just good knowledge to have for the future. I guess for the test track I need to go ahead and replace those wheels now.

The good news is that while running just cars with the new wheels, there were no problems at all running trains at full speed forwards and backwards through the turnout. I would have to call that a successful build!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Here's my turnout in its new home...









Since neither route through the turnout will get power to both rails by itself, I soldered on a couple of jumper wires so there would be power in each direction. Ideally though I think you would want to solder power leads directly to all three tracks connected to the turnout, but every situation is different. In my case, I just have a short spur to connect to and figured it will be fine to supply power through the turnout rails.









I picked up some 0.030" piano wire last night. It is a huge improvement over the 0.020, with plenty of strength to reliably move the turnout. Since this is a test board I need to keep all my controls on top, so I tried a new idea of bending the wire at 90 degrees (the nails keep it in line with the throwbar). This actually worked great, I have a lot of flex to play with and should be able to use the full length of the stepper to move this wire.









Unfortunately I messed up. I took my breadboarded computer controller over to the track and hooked it up to run the stepper motor, but while the power was on the wire for the reset line hit the rails... *boom* 18V pushed through a 3V device. Yeah it's dead. Such a shame, I've done a lot of testing with this little computer chip. I have some new breakout boards for these chips, so last night I soldered up one of the ESP8266-12F chips to the new board, and this morning I soldered down my first ESP-32S chip to another breakout board. I'll get the new 12F set up to run the stepper pretty soon, but at some point I'll be playing with the 32S, which is going to be my do-everything board to go into the locos (which means I could have a camera mounted soon!). However I have an HOn3 2-8-0 loco kit sitting here that I really want to get running since I have the test track in place now... Oh what to do, what to do?


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I've started on my next challenge -- a piece with two turnouts spaced tightly together and built as a single piece. One turnout is dual-gauge all the way through, the second turnout is dual-gauge through the straight path and standard-gauge through the curved path. As I mentioned before, dual-gauge brings a while new set of challenges, and I find myself still referencing my notes and previous turnout quite frequently as I figure out what rails go where. In addition, this time I am building on a plain printout directly from my track plan, without any extra lines on the page to help, and now that I've built a couple turnouts already I find that I don't need all those extra lines. Yay! 

Each time I build one of these, I recognize more details in what I've done that I have not shared in this thread, and this time is no different. Beginning as always with the stock rails, I file down the base where the point fit in. I hold my file at an angle so I don't touch the head (top) of the rail, but you need to file the base down until it is completely flush with the central web of the rail. In the picture below, you can see there is still a slight ledge along the bottom, but I am almost done.









One thing I *can't* tell you is how far back to file to allow clearance between the stock and point rails. This amount will change depending on how sharp the turnout paths diverge. Larger frog numbers will have longer points of contact. Since my turnouts have a fairly sharp 18.5" radius, the contact area is less than 1.25". This is why I made the stock and point rails at the same time for my first turnout -- so I could figure out how much to file back on each for proper clearance.

As you add your frogs, it is helpful to slide on scraps of flex-track ties to keep the ends of the rails spaced properly. Take your time positioning each frog as you need to slide it back and forth, and also turn it so both frog rails line up with the stock rails. Get it lined up as square as possible before soldering the first spot, then check multiple locations with your standards gauge to make sure it is really square.

I have three frogs on this new turnout, and I spent several hours yesterday and today preparing the stock rails and positions all the frogs. This afternoon I have been working on the points for the straight path and finally have that finished from end to end.









As you (hopefully) can see, the points of the second turnout are almost back into the frog of the first turnout. When I go to build my full layout, I have a yard ladder of five turnouts set up with the same spacing, although that will be strictly standard gauge, but they will also have to be built as a single continuous piece.

I'm debating if I want to try and make hinged points for the shorter rails this time. They were so stiff on the previous turnout that I'm having trouble operating them. One idea I saw was soldering some 0.020" bronze wire to the end of the point, then put that through a hole in the PC tie and bend it over on the back side. Seems like it is worth trying, even though I do really like the look of the continuous rails.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Nearing completion! I finished all the primary rails today, just have to add the guard rails and throw bars, then make the cuts for electrical isolation. I did a test-fit on the test track, snipped a couple rails slightly shorter for clearance with the existing, and everything looks pretty good.










Big week at work, including some evening work, but this will give my fingers a chance to rest. My fingertips are raw from holding the rails while I did all that filing, so I'll get back to the guard rails when I get a chance.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Instead of filing, I use a 1" belt sander with a 400 Grit Silicon carbide belt. One of the more useful tools I've ever bought! I use it to square up the ends of rail along with making points and frogs!


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Think I have finally finished up the new pair of turnouts, including the electrical. Whew that one took all week! I'm definitely feeling a lot more confident in the build process though, and I had no problems at all working with a basic line drawing to lay it out. Good news for future layouts!

So here's a shot of all three turnouts together as one piece...









Notice that I used a lot fewer PC ties in the new pair on the right. Most of the extra ties I added in the first one were to support the guard rails and smaller pieces, but I figured out I don't actually have to do that. Instead, I soldered the guard rails right to the main track, so they are well supported underneath where you can't see the solder.

Here you can see where I soldered several guard rails, and I also covered over the opening in the frogs.









And here's a shot of the top side, where you can see how the frogs were filled.









Once I was comfortable with this technique I tried another new idea. In the dual-gauge turnout there is a guard rails that sits right against the straight point rail (in the middle of the pic below). In the first turnout I left a larger gap so the point had room to move. This time I soldered the guard rail directly to the point, allowing me to set the correct spacing, and the guard rail just moves *with* the point. It worked out really well and I could set the guard exactly where it needed to be to keep the wheels out of the crossing.









I need to find a shallow tray to give these turnouts a bath in alcohol, there is still flux all over them. I did get in two new sizes of steppers this week, hopefully can check soon to see if either of them will work for the points. Now I'm off to fit everything to the test layout.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

I've been trying to wrap up some details with my planned layout, and sometimes you just don't have the space needed to take the easy way out. I have a spot where I really need a single-slip crossing, but it has narrow-gauge track running across one leg of it. The typical slip that I've seen has the points inside the center diamond, but with the third rail running through there was just no room for the points. I made a test layout of the section in xtrkcad and played around with my options this afternoon. Using a 72" radius curve for the slip, it put the points outside of the diamond, with the points ending up over 4" in length which leaves plenty of length for flexibility of the points.

One thing I noticed, though, was that one leg of the crossing went immediately into a tight curve with no room for an easement... What to do??? Well hey, it's a custom turnout anyway, why don't I just start the turn from the center of the crossing? I cut the slip curve in half and dropped one side to a 36" radius. The stepped curve gives a decent enough easement that the train won't jerk into the curve. Then I took the leg of the crossing on that side and changed it to a curve, then worked with the radius until it matched to the slip, which turned out to be 79". And with the additional curvature, I added another 5.5 degrees to the turn coming out of the crossing.

Overall I created a smooth transition into the curve from both directions through the slip, and was able to greatly increase the overall radius of the curve. A double-slip would have been better here, so I worked on adding a curve to the other side of the crossing, but the results were just too busy, way too much track running through a small space which makes me worry about the reliability. I did have a little room a few inches further down the mainline to add a regular crossover, so the trains will have the option to jump onto whichever line is needed now.










As you can see this stretch has a lot going on. The entire snapshot is only about 29 inches in length. The need for the slip crossing came because I really needed a way for a train coming in on either of the mainlines on the right to go directly into that first curve (it leads to a small yard that should be backed in to). Plus I had to have a turnout for the narrow gauge (in brown) to divert off the the passenger station.

This is the part of hand-laying turnouts that really excites me... I have the ability to make some really specialized pieces which will allow options that would not be possible with store-bought track. And the addition of dual-gauge has introduced a number of situations that are simply not available to buy.

I don't think I'm quite up to the challenge of building this complex intersection yet, after all I've only built four turnouts so far. I need to get some practice on a regular crossing first, plus try doing a standard gauge double-slip. I have a pretty high count of turnouts in my plan, so I'll get in quite a lot of practice as I build.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I enjoy making my own turnouts, and when you slip one in that on a curve you walking on clouds! I would never have tackled a dual gauge turnout, but when you think of it, your options are limited, no manufacturer going to make all the possibilities. In the real world they probably custom made the so your just emulating the real world! I just wash my off with water and a small brass brush in the kitchen sink as the flux is water soluble. You could also try a cookie pan that has some slight sides.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Old thread, but I finally have an update today... For the three turnouts pictured at the top of the page, I finally found some Caboose Industries ground throws at the train show today. Snipped off the pins, added some 0.032" piano wire with a loop in the middle, and nailed them down to the board. Works like a charm and I finally have something to at least allow manual operation on my test loop. Maybe now one of these days I can get back to coding the computer on my 0-4-0.


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