# I'm back and ready to lay some track but have questions before I do...



## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

After spending much of the start of the spring and summer outdoors with the kid or really the golf clubs I’m redirecting my attention back to my layout as it’s been sitting untouched for a few months. All my bus wiring has been completed and I’ve glued down all the road bed for the base level. I’m not planning on building out the elevated levels until I’ve completed the base level and can run a train on there. My goal is to get this done this week (before the mother-in-law gets here) so I can push the layout back into its place. 

History:

The layout design was primarily designed by one of the extremely helpful members on this forum as I had no experience with some modifications on my end which I hope don’t screw me in the end. If it does then you go to plan B,C,D,Z. With that said It’s almost 20ft in length end to end with an “L” that sticks out. I went overboard with the “L” section as I built it out of 2x4s. If you wanted you could stand and jump on it. I did and I weight 180lbs. NOTE to others, don’t jump after you put the foam board on-top or you can easily create crevasses 

PLEASE HELP me with my basic questions: 

I’ve searched this and other forums, watched youtube videos, etc. but I don’t feel I’m ready to actually lay track. I’ve never soldered before so I practiced with some track to get the hang of it and I’m good with that. I know / understand there are many ways to do something and the “best” may not always be the best but I’m looking for some specific feedback to some specific questions before I put anything down. 

All track used is Atlas Flex Track except for turnouts which are all PECO Insulfrog plus one Sinohara / Walthers. I have not purchased them yet but I will end up using Tam Valley Depot devices. 

•	I plan on starting left to right and dropping feeders every 4ft. I’ve read people do this either every section of flex or as little as every 8ft or even just a few for a whole layout. I figure 4ft for each drop should work and might be overkill but what the hell. 
•	Since I’m using PECO Insulfrogs I don’t have to wire my turnouts? That’s the whole point of having Insulfrogs right? Should I always wire right before and after turnouts? 
•	When / Where do I use the plastic insulated rail joiners? When you use them do you also nail down the ends of that track to keep it from moving as much? I believe you use then when you have a reverse loop but I’m still trying to figure out if I have a reverse loop which leads me to…
•	Do I have a reverse loop? What do I do with it?
•	Flex Track around curves should be soldered straight using the metal joiners and then curved when placed. The sliding part of the flex track should always be on the inside (point inwards toward your layout and not away from it). 

Really what’s kept me from moving forward is my lack of understanding on how I wire up my layout. I included a picture of the layout design and would appreciate any / all feedback. The attached image shows the layout before I added the roadbed for the main level.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, you're right, there's no "best". What you're suggesting is gross overkill, in my opinion. First of all, before you lay track, look at your plan, where you have all of those red lines inside the curves. That shows areas where your curve radius exceeds your design spec (18" radius?). You have also added grades on some of those spurs. That's asking for trouble. It will likely cause you many more problems than any voltage drop. If you leave it that way, be prepared for running only very short locos and rolling stock on that part.

Let's start at the top of your list.

-- In my opinion, drops every 4 feet is a waste of wire, solder, and time. I do every 6-8 feet, and I still think that's probably overkill. My son successfully runs an 8x12 layout on a single pair of feeders and no soldered track. Adding feeders and soldering track only buys you insurance, it doesn't necessarily make anything run better.
-- See my answer above for the necessity of adding feeders everywhere. You can power the frogs, though, and since you will probably have short locos, that might not be a bad idea.
-- You only need plastic joiners where you need to insulate one section of track from another. They require no special fastening. And BTW, I would use adhesive latex caulk, not nails, to fasten your track, especially if your base is extruded foam insulation. It doesn't hold nails very well. 
-- Yes, you have a reverse loop (just follow one rail around -- if you find yourself back on the same section of track with your finger on the opposite rail, you have a reverse loop). Basically, the whole right side of the layout is a reversing loop. You need a separate feeder (or more than one) for this section, and it must be wired through a reversing loop controller. Insulate the leg of the "Y" where it comes around from the top, before it splits into two tracks at the right. That will do it.
-- While not strictly required, soldering pieces together and then curving them is a "best practice". And yes, it's better if the sliding rail is to the inside otherwise you will find yourself cutting ties of the end of the track piece to make it fit.

If you're nervous about the number of feeders required, you can drill some extra holes when you lay the track, and add more feeders later if required.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Hi, Brob2k1. That's an interesting design, it looks like it'll be good to run trains.
And that's really nicely planned out on the tables, with the way you drew the track plan in.

Four feet is definitely overkill. But overkill keeps things from falling apart.
I'm guilty of overkill myself, many times. keep that four feet blocks, it sure doesn't hurt.

I won't answer questions I'm not qualified to do. I just fell better that way.

Keep all the insulated joiners on the same rail. Only one side. That will be the best way to insulate the track. Use one every place you intend to put a block.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm with CTvalley on the number of track drops
and also the way to attach the track to the benchwork.
Nails are way overkill and likely to damage track.
Further, when you 'glue' use it very sparingly. Just
a dab here and there. Makes it easy to remove when
the inevitable 'change' happens.

I see two reverse loops (and the turntable).

The first as CTvalley noted, is the outer loop connecting
to the yard. You would want to place insulated joiners
at the Turnout where the track meets the yard. Then
another pair of insulated joiners back around the oval
for as long as your longest lighted passenger train.
(to avoid loco spanning one set of insulated joiners,
while passenger car wheels span the other set.)
A DCC reverse loop controller will be necessary to
power this isolated section.

The inner oval connection to the yard track would
also be a reverse loop but you can avoid needing
another reverse loop controller by changing the
way you wire the oval. Where you usually want
the outer rail of an oval to be 'red' and inner rail
'black', if you reverse this of the inner oval your
phasing (Polarity) will be matched and no
insulated joiners would be needed.

You'll want to study the turntable you buy to make
sure it included phasing match.

Don


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

I hate to be the "fly in the soup" but this track plan has two major flaws in my mind.

First,all transitions from the lower to the upper level is done through the turntable.Though you may like operating the TT,you'll never be able to transfer more than two units (Loco X 2 or loco+car) at a time,assuming you have the larger TT.Any longer consists will have to be hand assembled on either level and remain there.

Then you have a six foot ramp to climb thee inches,wich is roughly a 4% climb...manageable but pretty steep.But considering that you won't run anything longer than two units,it may not be a problem to you.

This plan may be perfect for your purposes but it wouldn't suit my goals,that's why I'm suggesting a review before installing trackage.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

I have a few questions for you -- that will help us understand what you are doing.

(1) Are you using DCC? If so, then the only place you need insulated rail joiners is at the wye. If you are using DC, let us know. You will need to insulate blocks of the track if you want to run two trains at once.

(2) How are you going to achieve the grades (slopes) that you indicate? You will need some kind of risers to support the elevated track.

(3) A suggestion. If you move the turntable area up to an elevation of about 1.5", then make the track that goes to the wye slope DOWN at about 1.8%, then have the track just above it slope UP at about 1,8% (instead of 3.5%), you will have achieved your desired clearance by the time the two tracks cross over and under each other. AND you will have reduced your maximum grade by about half.

(4) As for construction order, I suggest that you start with the two loops on the L table, and build them first. Then work you way back towards the round table. Loops create more problems that does track that does not loop. Doing them first may dictate some changes on the linear part of the layout


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Thanks guys for the quick replies. I should have made a few things clear. 

1. I am using DCC. I have a NCE Power Cab.

2. The minimum radius is set for 22" which is why the top level is RED. I only plan on running short rolling stock on the top level. The bottom level which are 22" will run passenger. Obviously I could also do rolling stock at the top.

3. I am planning on using latex caulk for the tracks and use the credit card method to spread it out. I was thinking nails would be temporary until the adhesive takes.

4. The spurs on the side loop will never have a full train on them. Operational thought process is that I would have a switcher (http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Broadway-Limited-Imports-HO-Trackmobile-DCC-p/bli-6008.htm) which would move the rolling stock where I want it. I would need two of them and since they are small I can put them at the ends of the track. Not sure if that's realistic operation but I like how they look.

5. In regards to turning around locomotives, yes the turntable is there to turn around a single locomotive, etc. However, my thought from an actual operations standpoint was to use the push-pull method where I would have two loco's one on each end. When I complete going through the right side and come back to the left side of the layout the back loco is now the front so I would switch and use that to take it back the other way. I've read about this being done but I have never implemented it so it's something I need to learn how to do. 

Based on the feedback ... 

1. Every 4ft is overkill for feeders. I'll do it every 6-8ft or so based on the feedback. 

2. I knew I had a reverse loop doing the finger thing but I was a bit confused on how to fix it. There are a number of threads on this forum which point to getting a AR module but i'm unsure of what to get. I'm looking at whatever modeltrainstuff.com has in-stock so I can pick it up tomorrow on my way home. *Does anyone have a suggestion or can recommend one they are currently using so when I come back in a few days and ask how to wire the thing up it's an easy question and answer  * 

3. I was planning on using the Woodland Scenics incline packages for all the slopes. 

4. I'll look into elevating the turn table section to help reduce the slopes. That's not a bad idea.


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

In regards to reverse loop this is what I understand from what I see and the responses. I've blocked in RED the reverse loop areas. Is that correct?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

It is usually wise to keep your reverse loop
isolated section as short as possible with the
understanding that it must be longer than
your longest lighted passenger train (or
lighted caboose). 

That's why I suggested that you start with
your insulated joiners where the outer loop
joins the lead yard track and measure back
around the loop for the 2nd set of joiners.
However, you can also do it using the top
of the loop, but the insulated joiners would be
on the loop side of the top turnout.

You can use any Reverse loop controller that
is made for DCC. One that is popular is
the Digitrax AR1

http://www.digitrax.com/products/autoreversing/ar1/

But also take note of how you might
wire the inner loop to avoid the need
for a 2nd loop controller.

I may have misunderstood your layout drawing but
other than the loops on the right you have no 
continuous running through the yard area. Is
that right?

Don


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Don, 

I'm reading your response and I think I understand what you are saying but i'm having trouble visualizing where on the layout you are talking about. The outer line (i'm assuming this is the lead track your talking about) runs all the way around and comes back and i'm assuming that whole section the outer circle is the reverse but it touches again where I drew the first red box on the left. Is that not correct? If that's correct then I would put the plastic joiners before the turnout? 

In the elevated section (middle) if you follow that track around then where I marked the box the outer track again runs into the inner track so would that not require another AR? I know you mentioned I could reverse the way I wire the section OR i could use an AR. 

Finally if you follow the big circle around and come back to the circle and not switch to go the mainline when the outside and inside track meet on the right side that would also require an AR?

Maybe i'm not understanding what I need to look for and how to properly identify a reverse loop.


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

After studying the layout that you provided, there is only one track that need to be isolated because there is only one reverse loop, not two. The track in the green "box" is the one to be isolated. That is it. I am not seeing any problem with the rest of the tracks since they are still on the same polarity except that green area.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Brob

I wish I had the computer saavy to provide a
nice layout drawing, but alas, not.

On the right you have 2 1/2 ovals.

I suggest using the outer 1/2 oval for your
isolated section. The first insulated joiners
would be where that track joins the turnout
to the yard. The 2nd joiners would be in
that track at a spot longer than your longest
lighted train or, perhaps, where that track
joins the turnout on the far right.

You could use Blue Navigator's suggested isolated
section but I fear it may be too short if you do
have lighted trains.

The reason lighted trains are a factor is because
of the way a reverse loop controller works: When
the loco wheels span the insulated joiners there is
a short circuit. The reverse controller senses this
and immediately reverses the phase of the isolated track.
The loco continues on with nary a blink of the
light. When it reaches the other end of the 
isolated section it spans the insulated joiners. This
immediately again reverses the phase and the
loco continues. However, if the loco is spanning
the 2nd joiners and a lighted car (or other loco)
spans the first set of joiners you have a short
circuit and the main DCC controller will shut down.

You asked how to determine when you have
a 'reverse loop'. I draw out the layout using a
red pen for the outer rail of an oval and a black
pen for the inner rail. Maintain this pattern and
when you see the red rail 'joining' a black rail
you have created a reverse loop. In other words,
anytime your track layout makes it possible to
turn a loco around to go the opposite direction on
the same track you have a reverse loop. Try it
on your layout and you will see what we are
talking about.

Don


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## bluenavigator (Aug 30, 2015)

Since I haven't use DCC yet, I do not know how long the track has to be isolated for the reverse polarity, Per DonR's comments, t is possible to make the whole outer loop on the right side to be isolated.










When the reverse polarity need to be done, what will happen to other locos? will they go in opposite direction as they keep going? I am curious about that part.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The isolated section should be no longer than
your longest lighted train. The reason you want
to keep it from being overly long is that increases
the likelyhood that a second train could enter it
accidentally and cause a short. With DCC it
is very likely that you will often run 2 or more
trains at the same time.

If you won't be running lighted trains you could
measure it to say 4 feet or so.

The loco in the isolated section and any other
loco running at the time the reverse controller
operates will be totally unaffected. Keep in mind
with DCC each loco decoder responds to your
Main controller individually as to direction and speed. The
modified track voltage in the isolated section
remains the same but
it's phase (polarity) is changed to match the
main tracks. The decoder uses that for power
then converts it to DC to run the motor and
lights. It only responds to your commands for 
run/stop: forward/reverse; and speed.

You will find yourself running 2 trains on the
same track, one going clockwise the other
counter clockwise. Can't do that with DC.

Don


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## brob2k1 (Dec 7, 2015)

At the current time the longest train I have is the Bachman Acela set which is lighted. Based on what you mentioned I highlighted a few areas on the layout since i'm more of a visual person. If I understand correctly you are saying that I should isolate where I listed 1 and either 3 or 4 depending on the length of my trains?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

That is correct. Measure the length of the Acela. Then
install insulated joiners at 1, and the other pair
at either 3 or 4 as per your measurement of the
train. That isolated section would be powered
by the DCC reverse loop controller. The input
to the reverse controller is connected to your
main DCC buss. It is mounted under the table
near the isolated section. It is fully automatic
and needs no attention under normal
circumstances. It does not require any
power supply other than your DCC buss.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MtRR75 said:


> A suggestion. If you move the turntable area up to an elevation of about 1.5", then make the track that goes to the wye slope DOWN at about 1.8%, then have the track just above it slope UP at about 1,8% (instead of 3.5%), you will have achieved your desired clearance by the time the two tracks cross over and under each other. AND you will have reduced your maximum grade by about half.


This is what the original design did. Apparently, there were clearance issues (the left part of the layout rests on some shelving units, and has a wall-mounted TV above it as shown on the plan.

You can view the original in the "Collection of Track Plans" thread.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

If the train fits, I would isolate the track section between 1 and 2. I guess you could use most of the outer right loops as a reversing section, but then ALL feeders for that section would have to run through the reverse loop controller, complicating the wiring.


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