# "Passenger" or "Freight" Rail Service..



## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

"Passenger" or "Freight" Rail Service..
It all depends on what your prefernce is..
At one time I had both, but went to freight only..

"Passenger"
- Passenger diesel locomotives (require steam generators for passenger units)
- Very few changes with a passenger rolling unit
- A much stop and go at passenger train stations

"Freight"
- Many different types of freight diesel locomotives are used
- Constanly changing freight rolling unit.. (Main Line).. 
- Moving and shunting freight cars around.. (Yard)..

==========================

Special Notes: (Passenger)
Since the 60's, passenger units are still mostly 85.0' feet long..
In late steam and early diesel era's there were also some 60.0' foot long units..
Caution: The cost per unit ($'s)..
https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?manu=635&category=Passenger&split=30
I had and sold (x2) complete sets of passenger units 85.0' foot from Rivarossi..

WARNING:
Long passenger units (85.0') have the (x2) trucks deep inside the unit..
If you are using "Kadee Couplers" a special conversion kit is required..









Special Notes: (Freight)
Since the 50's, freight [box cars] went from 40' foot, up to 60' foot..
All metal freight box cars with roof top walk ways are from the late steam era and early diesel era..
In 1974 was the set date for the removal of all roof walks and high hand brakes..[Box Cars]..











Special Notes: [N] Scale Comparisons..
http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/NconvC.txt
1.00" = 13.33'	

Special Notes: [HO] Scale Comparisons..
[HO] Scale" = Actual Protoype Length..
http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/HOconvC.txt
- 1.00" = 7.26'	
- 6.00" = 43.56'
- 6.89" = 50.00' 
- 7.00" = 50.82'
- 8.00" = 58.08'
- 8.26" = 60.00'
- 9.00" = 65.34'
- 10.00" = 72.60'
- 11.70" = 85.00'

Question:
How many pcs. of "Passenger" or "Freight" units do you want behind the "Locomotive/Locomotives" ??
[HO] 85' foot units (x3) = 36.6"
[HO] 60' foot units (x4) = 35.0"
[HO] 50' foot units (x5) = 37.5"









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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

Great info thanks!:smilie_daumenpos:


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## smarcus3 (Feb 15, 2016)

Awesome info !!!


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Using Passenger "And" Freight Rail Service..*

Special Notes: (#1)
Passenger diesel locomotives (Prototype) require steam generators for the passenger units..
Steam generators were developed when diesel locomotives started to replace steam locomotives on passenger trains.. 
A passenger locomotive was fitted with a steam generator and a feed water supply tank.. 
This would supply the required heating and hot water supply to the passenger units..

Special Notes: (#2)
Many different railway companies will have only small passenger commutes, only using coaches..
This also makes the passenger train much "Shorter" in length.. 
This also allows for dual usage of the locomotive between passenger "And" freight rail service..
The picture on the left (Blue Locomotive) is an "Old" locomotive pulling (x2) 85' foot passenger coaches.. 
The picture on the right (Red Locomotive) is a "New" locomotive pulling (x2) 60' foot passenger coaches.. 









Special Notes: (#3)
Newer locomotives (Much Larger) doing passenger "And" freight rail service will have everything "Hidden" inside the locomotive..
Older locomotives doing passenger "And" freight rail service had (x4) long roof top mounted air reservoirs
for increased water capacity..

I am showing an actual (Prototype) picture..
An excellent picture and example..
- Looks like a modified GP-7 or GP-9 without the center top cooling fan
- There are (x4) long roof top mounted air reservoirs
- No dynamic brake top cooling vents (optional brakes when pulling heavy freight cars)
- A winter hatch cover over (x1) top locomotive cooling fan..(Winter Areas)
- The engineers extended side window viewing..(Winter Areas)









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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

nice clear photo's and diagrams :appl:


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ED-RRR said:


> Special Notes: (#1)
> The picture on the right (Red Locomotive) is a "New" locomotive pulling (x2) 60' foot passenger coaches..


No, those are 85' cars in the photo with the CP engine.

Note that the coaches are former CN/VIA cars that have been modified to be self-contained; power and/or steam heat is NOT provided by the engine.

In that particular photo, the CP engine was borrowed for a few days to replace the railway's (Orangeville-Brampton Railway) normal engine, which was getting some repairs. This Ontario shortline provides a small amount of daily freight service, and also runs a tourist excursion train on certain weekends.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ED-RRR said:


> Special Notes: (#3)
> Newer locomotives (Much Larger) doing passenger "And" freight rail service will have everything "Hidden" inside the locomotive..
> Older locomotives doing passenger "And" freight rail service had (x4) long roof top mounted air reservoirs
> for increased water capacity..


You have to be a bit careful here, as just about nothing under "Special Notes #3" is a hard and fast rule.

There were passenger/dual service hood units that were exactly as described; there were units that did not have the greatly expanded water tanks to move the air tanks to the roof but did have boilers for passenger service, and I've seen units with NO boilers that had rooftop air tanks for expanded fuel tank capacity.
(and naturally, this observation only applies to two models built by EMD; other builders had different design arrangements.)

Dynamic breaks were options typically ordered by railroads with a lot of grades and hilly or mountainous running. This really has nothing to do with freight vs. passenger - lots of passenger units had dynamic brakes and lots of freight units did not. Depends on the railroad.

I also wouldn't say that anything is "hidden" - while components like boilers or electrical generators are obviously inside the carbody, there tend to be dead give-away cues to their presence and arrangement, primarily with extra vents, air intakes and/or exhaust stacks.


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## RH1 (Jan 4, 2016)

ED-RRR said:


> "Passenger" or "Freight" Rail Service..
> It all depends on what your prefernce is..
> At one time I had both, but went to freight only..
> 
> ...



Or, you can use your run-of-the-mill freight locomotive with a separate steam generator car to pull your passenger train. Opens up the possibilities!


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

It should also be pointed out that modern passenger cars no longer use steam for heat - that's been obsolete for a while. Modern coaches are all electrical.

However, the general concept is similar; just instead of a steam generator, the train requires either a specialized locomotive with a built in HEP (head-end power) generator or a separate electric generator car.

Electric Generator Unit instead of Steam Generator Unit.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*passenger "And" freight..*



cv_acr said:


> No, those are 85' cars in the photo with the CP engine.
> Note that the coaches are former CN/VIA cars that have been modified to be self-contained; power and/or steam heat is NOT provided by the engine.


(#1)
Sorry, I stand corrected that the (x2) passenger units are 85' feet long..
It was only intended to be an example..

(#2)
Sorry, I stand corrected that the (x2) passenger units have their own board generators..
Orangeville-Brampton Railway is still using a GMD GP-9RM locomotive..
This locomotive is not powered with a HEP generator..
In rail transport, head-end power (HEP) or electric train supply (ETS) is the electrical power distribution system on a passenger train..
HEP is electrical power to power electrical air conditioning, heating, lighting, etc.



cv_acr said:


> In that particular photo, the CP engine was borrowed for a few days to replace the railway's (Orangeville-Brampton Railway) normal engine,
> which was getting some repairs.
> This Ontario shortline provides a small amount of daily freight service, and also runs a tourist excursion train on certain weekends.


[cv_acr]:_ :smilie_daumenpos:_
You just showed a good example using passenger "And" freight..











cv_acr said:


> However, the general concept is similar; just instead of a steam generator, the train requires either a specialized locomotive with a built in HEP (head-end power) generator or a separate electric generator car.
> Electric Generator Unit instead of Steam Generator Unit.


I will respond to this quote !!
......


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Hood Units !!*



cv_acr said:


> There were passenger/dual service hood units that were exactly as described..


[cv_acr]..Question..__

What do you describe as a (passenger/dual service hood units) ??
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## dave1905 (Jul 7, 2013)

A lot of the information is generalized. You only need steam in the colder months. Some railroads used freight units on passenger trains. 

There is switching for passenger trains. Cars and trains need to be turned. Baggage, express and Mail cars need to be added and removed, as well as diners, lounges and connecting sleepers. A lot of what people do with passenger trains is because they don't know what the trains actually did or don't want to model it.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"Air Reservoirs"*

[cv_acr]:
Sorry, but you are too general when stating "Quotes"..
More information is required to clarify your posted information..



cv_acr said:


> You have to be a bit careful here, as just about nothing under "Special Notes #3" is a hard and fast rule.


(#1)
Sorry, I stand corrected about "Some" of the information I had previously posted..
I did not do my homework for each individual railroad and era..
Each individual railroad company changed from steam generators to a different power at a different decade..



cv_acr said:


> there were units that did "NOT" have the greatly expanded water tanks
> to move the air tanks to the roof but did have boilers for passenger service,


I am talking about the GP series locomotives that replaced the steam locomotives for "Passenger Service"..
All of these units had roof top air reservoir tanks for storage..
-BUT-
Your talking about when the "F" series locomotives that were produced for "Only" --> "Passenger Service" 
and the "A" and "B" units contain all the internal required hardware for steam operated passenger service..
Item #11 in the picture is the "Steam Generator"..









cv_acr said:


> Dynamic breaks were options typically ordered by railroads with a lot of grades and hilly or mountainous running.
> This really has nothing to do with freight vs. passenger - lots of passenger units had dynamic brakes and lots of freight units did not.
> Depends on the railroad.


I am talking about the GP series locomotives that replaced the steam locomotives for "Passenger Service"..
Dynamic brakes have a "Center Top Cooling Fan" with (x2) special top corner cooling vents..
There is "NO" available space for the "Required" (x4) air reservoir tanks to be located..
-BUT-
Your talking about when the "F" series locomotives that were produced for only "Passenger Service" 
and when the "F" series locomotives were produced, dynamic brakes were an option..

Montana Rail Link's present status and main line date back to --> 1987 ..
Both locomotives (x2) have air tanks roof mounted..
I only found (x1) "CP" locomotive with only (x2) non-standard mounted air reservoir tanks..











cv_acr said:


> and I've seen units with NO boilers that had rooftop air tanks for expanded "Fuel" tank capacity..


(#2)
Sorry, but I have never seen or herd of rooftop tanks for expanded "Fuel" tank capacity..
The word "Fuel" is diesel fuel to run the locomotive engines..
Please re-clarify this "Quote".._:dunno:_..
Placing "Fuel" tanks over a hot engine exhaust system without "Fuel" filling inlets !! 









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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

All I said was there are lots of exceptions. And I wasn't really talking about F units either.

That CP unit is the one that proves my point about dynamic brakes. That unit has steam boilers AND dynamic brakes AND expanded water tank capacity AND air tanks moved to the roof as a result.

I NEVER once said at any point that auxiliary FUEL tanks were placed on the roof. I only said that the AIR tanks were relocated to allow larger tank capacity under the locomotive.

I was thinking of some Ontario Northland GP9s with torpedo tube air tanks, but found some older photos from better angles and they actually were built with steam generators, although those were later removed. So I was wrong on these particular units, they didn't have expanded fuel tanks (at least not as built) but the expanded tanks were for water.

However, in theory there could have been a RR that wanted larger fuel tanks and moved the air tanks to the roof - take for example this Quebec North Shore & Labrador GP9 with extra large fuel tank (QNSL also ordered SD40-2s later with extra large capacity fuel tanks) although in this case they actually managed to squish the air tanks *inside* the carbody somewhere instead of moving them onto the roof:

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0903/qnsl172.jpg


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Also, since you've brought up F units, there were plenty of F units that were exclusively freight units, not passenger.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"Switching Passenger Trains"*



dave1905 said:


> There is switching for passenger trains.
> Cars and trains need to be turned. Baggage, express and Mail cars need to be added and removed, as well as diners, lounges and connecting sleepers.


Lets say that is true and factual in real "Prototype" usage..

My only question is how will an individual switch around their passenger units on their layout ?? 
When in [HO] scale 85' foot units (x3) = 36 1/2" long..
......


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*Passenger or Freight Pilot (Front Engine Coupler)*



cv_acr said:


> Also, since you've brought up F units, there were plenty of F units that were exclusively freight units, not passenger.


Sorry, I stand corrected about "Some" of the information..
- BUT -
You never stated the "Required" differences between "F" (Freight Units) and "F" (Passenger units)..
Again, you are only posting partial facts without any actual proof.. 

EMD F-units..
Either a passenger or freight style pilot (Front Coupler) could be ordered !!

The "Passenger Pilot", similar to that standard on EMD E units, 
sloped smoothly down from the bottom of the nose, making a single slope all the way down from the headlight.. 
The coupler was retractable with concealing doors.. 

The "Freight Pilot" curved inward a little way below the bottom of the nose before sloping out again, 
to give more clearance to the coupler and hoses..
The coupler was non-retractable and protruded through a rectangular opening in the pilot..

Special EMD F-units were used for freight units..
I can not see that there were "Plenty" of "F" units that were exclusively freight units..
Especially when the (x2) man crew in the locomotive could not see behind them..
Please do not bring up the caboose idea..
The "Radio Equipped" was in the 1960's but not reliable until the 1970's !!









Posting #7


cv_acr said:


> there were units that did not have the greatly expanded water tanks to move the air tanks to the roof but did have boilers for passenger service,
> and I've seen units with NO boilers that had rooftop air tanks for expanded fuel tank capacity.
> ..


Why did you not state that you made an error in what you really meant ??
But instead you deny saying this..



cv_acr said:


> I NEVER once said at any point that auxiliary FUEL tanks were placed on the roof.
> I only said that the AIR tanks were relocated to allow larger tank capacity under the locomotive.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

OK... so you don't believe there were plenty of F units without boilers in freight service?

Here's a very small handful...

http://condrenrails.com/ATSF/ATSF-304-Argentine-KS-11-73.jpg
http://www.atsfrr.net/resources/funits/gfx/p17f1.jpg
http://www.atsfrr.net/resources/funits/gfx/p21f2.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d2/4/2/3/4423.1409501604.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d2/1/1/2/8112.1444178535.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3/2/7/6327.1330396092.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/3/8/2538.1209697759.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/2/6/1726.1231702666.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/8/1/4/9814.1365394355.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/7/8/2/6782.1296570111.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3/7/8/2378.1359111892.jpg
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/4/4/3544.1403506085.jpg
etc.


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## smarcus3 (Feb 15, 2016)

Guys guys guys. We're way off the original topic


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

ED-RRR said:


> Why did you not state that you made an error in what you really meant ??


I didn't. I said what I meant, and meant what I said. You highlighted in the original quote the word "rooftop" and conveniently ignored the very next word - "air". Which was the key word of the entire sentence...


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## RH1 (Jan 4, 2016)

dave1905 said:


> There is switching for passenger trains. Cars and trains need to be turned. Baggage, express and Mail cars need to be added and removed, as well as diners, lounges and connecting sleepers. A lot of what people do with passenger trains is because they don't know what the trains actually did or don't want to model it.


Depending on the railroad and the type of cars, switching will be needed (to move baggage cars, add cars, etc.), but a lot of the coaches don't need to be turned. They just turn the seats...

Only bringing it up, as there may be some on here who didn't realize how they worked. Unfortunately, it's a bit more difficult to get the seats to spin on our models!


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## /6 matt (Jul 7, 2015)

smarcus3 said:


> Guys guys guys. We're way off the original topic


That tends to happen in his threads, he doesn't handle criticism well.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

RH1 said:


> Depending on the railroad and the type of cars, switching will be needed (to move baggage cars, add cars, etc.), but a lot of the coaches don't need to be turned. They just turn the seats...
> 
> Only bringing it up, as there may be some on here who didn't realize how they worked. Unfortunately, it's a bit more difficult to get the seats to spin on our models!


Yep, although when putting a train together in the coach yard, the RR might want to turn coaches to have the vestibules arranged a certain way in the train, so there could be a reason to turn coaches.

Depends on the situation. Lots of ways to do things.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

ED-RRR said:


> My only question is how will an individual switch around their passenger units on their layout ??
> When in [HO] scale 85' foot units (x3) = 36 1/2" long..
> ......


On my layout I have a seperate piece of track off the main, about six feet long, going through my little town, along with it, there is a short, maybe two foot long additional siding ...on my particular layout there is room to switch single cars around quite easily, and three feet of cars on the longer piece itself .. plus about a three foot long wye in that same area ..

however not all layouts may have that capabilty, requiring the 'five finger' switcher ...


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## RH1 (Jan 4, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> Yep, although when putting a train together in the coach yard, the RR might want to turn coaches to have the vestibules arranged a certain way in the train, so there could be a reason to turn coaches.
> 
> Depends on the situation. Lots of ways to do things.


I just brought it up as I know that's what they did on the ACR with the 20-25 car tour trains. I had a summer job in the early 80's with the car cleaning crew. That was one of the things we did once the empty train rolled into the yard. Clean the cars, turn all the seats to face north, empty the toilet tanks into the "honey wagon". Only changes they actually made to the train otherwise was to add/remove cars from the end depending on the next day ticket sales, or remove any cars with issues (which usually meant my dad worked overtime to get them working again).

Once the train was stopped in Canyon, a couple of employees went through the whole train and spun the seats to face south while the tourists were out taking pictures, swatting mosquitoes, and swallowing black flies.

Actually, operation of a "Tour Train" like this can be a pretty good, simple, additional modelling opportunity on a layout. The same train goes part way up the line, stops for a bit, locomotives get run around to the other end, and then comes back to where it started the same day.

Like you said, depends on the RR and the specific situation.


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## ED-RRR (Jun 4, 2015)

*"Steam Generator Car" --> "Electrical Generator Car"..*

This is not really going off the subject, because this also applies to (Prototype) “Passenger Service”..



RH1 said:


> Or, you can use your run-of-the-mill freight locomotive with a separate steam generator car to pull your passenger train.
> Opens up the possibilities!


Yes, you are 100% correct..
Many different railroads did use "Steam Generator Units"..









I became curious when railways stopped using steam generator cars..
Especially in Canada..(The Great White North)..

http://users.eastlink.ca/~othen/acpassenger/acpassenger.html
http://users.eastlink.ca/~othen/acpassenger/VIA6456 6506 wb HOT Feb1990small.jpg
Dated: February 1990. --> Behind the "F" locomotive is a "Steam Generator Car"..

======================================

http://www.trainweb.org/algoma/pass.html#steam

Steam Generators: #75 and #77
Purchased in 1992..

Steam Generators: #80 and #81
Purchased in 1972..
Scrapped 1996/1997..









======================================

http://www.trainweb.org/algoma/pass.html#steam

Electrical Generator: #78
Purchased in 2007..
To only power (x4) new units..(HEP)..

Electrical Generator: #79
Purchased in 2007/2008..









......


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

FYI that B&O 5429 isn't a steam generator car but an F7B or F9B locomotive; and ironically I can't see any exhaust/vent detail for the steam generator, so it looks like it may actually be a freight unit. The photo is too small to see if it might have steam lines that might allow it to be a dual-service unit, but probably not.

The Algoma Central had a wonderful collection of secondhand passenger equipment, and steam heat lasted a lot longer there (well into the 2000s) than on most railroads, but VIA Rail was still running conventional steam heated equipment until major budget and service cuts were handed down around 1990. As a result, in the early 1990s pretty much all of the old steam heated equipment, and all the old F series locomotives were retired en masse. (In fact some of this disposed VIA equipment ended acquired by the ACR between 1992-1995 including the #75/77 steam generators shown above allowing some of the older cars to be retired.)

As an aside, the AC 78 is a particularly interesting car. It was originally built as a Alco PB-1 locomotive for the Denver & Rio Grande Western, later gutted and rebuilt to a steam generator car, and later converted again to an electrical generator car. Also interesting is that it rides on retired EMD locomotive trucks. The AC 79 appears to be built using an ex-Amtrak mail/express boxcar.


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## RH1 (Jan 4, 2016)

cv_acr said:


> The Algoma Central had a wonderful collection of secondhand passenger equipment,


The guys at the ACR were pretty good at keeping old equipment alive for a LONG time. The series of coaches they got from CP in the early 70's were all equipped with the old school "ice block" AC systems. My father was the guy that retrofitted that whole series of coaches with real Air Conditioning systems - and he has loads of stories of other creative stuff the rest of the guys in the car shops did.


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## greenwizard88 (Dec 5, 2014)

So I'm not sure the purpose of this thread, except to say that there's a lot of misinformation in it.

1) F units could be passenger units with steam generators. They were called FP (the P for passenger) or Alco made FA2's, the "2"' series (as opposed to FA(1)'s) was something like 6' longer for a steam generator.

Some railroads used F units on passenger trains. The most iconic being the Santa Fe, who ran F7's on the Super Chief. Steam was provided via the B units, which were equipped with steam generators, not the A units.

2) A modern day layout could model Amtrak's 30th street station or DC's Union Station where they would swap toasters and e60's for F40ph's and P42's. Additionally, Amtrak likes to keep their consists in a rather similar order, so you could swap the order of the train at the end of the line.

Pre-Amtrak, there were multiple short consist trains that consisted of a single engine (such as a GP9) and 2-4 passenger cars. A combine, dome, and coach car is a perfectly acceptable and prototypical consist. You could also find GP9s pulling named trains towards the end, such as on the N&W's Powhatan Arrow.

The ARR runs 10 SD70MAC's with HEP. They're also used in freight service. I don't see any visual difference between the HEP units and the non-HEP ones.

Regarding steam, the PRR ran different engines and even paint schemes for freight vs passenger service. But as steam engines were steam engines, they could (and would) swap if necessary. Likewise, the iconic N&W J would run freight service.

For every rule, there's an exception.

I personally like running an Amtrak Superliner consist with 3 passenger cars and a MHC behind a Dash-8, which is equally at home in California pulling Superliners, Pennsylvania pulling Amtubes, in yards building consists, or doing MoW work.

Really, except for when you're building your consist in a yard, a modern (non-local) freight train and a modern passenger train have just as much switching possibilities... none!


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

greenwizard88 said:


> 1) F units could be passenger units with steam generators. They were called FP (the P for passenger)


Just to be completely clear, when it comes to EMD's models, the extra length on an FP7 vs. an F7 was NOT for the steam generator, but for larger water tanks. A plain F7 had the space for a boiler, but water capacity was limited.

There's no such thing as an FPB7, as the FB7 already had plenty of extra internal space by not having the control cab.

The information on the ALCO units (FA-1, FA-2, FPA-2) may well be correct.


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## greenwizard88 (Dec 5, 2014)

cv_acr said:


> Just to be completely clear, when it comes to EMD's models, the extra length on an FP7 vs. an F7 was NOT for the steam generator, but for larger water tanks. A plain F7 had the space for a boiler, but water capacity was limited.
> 
> There's no such thing as an FPB7, as the FB7 already had plenty of extra internal space by not having the control cab.
> 
> The information on the ALCO units (FA-1, FA-2, FPA-2) may well be correct.


According to this page, the boiler was optional. F7-A units can and did pull passenger cars, so I'm not going to guess why some railroads did what they did. Good point about the FP7-B, too.

According to the Internet, the FA-1/FA-2 difference is 2.5 feet longer for the steam generator, and minor differences in air vent arrangement due to the longer length.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Good general info in this thread. If you want to find some stories and prototype info regarding passenger operations pick up some old 60's era TRAINS magazines. Lots of different approaches to handling pass. equipment. On the NH I think, the switch crew in the old S2 used keep a playing card stuck in one of the contactors to keep the old girl from transitioning while they shuffled the loaded pass cars so the riders wouldn't feel the jolt. I was on the throttle of the SW 1 on the Eureka springs RR years ago pulling 2 heavyweights and believe me that engine seemed like a living thing. Passenger trains are wonderful, my late friend Chet Carter rode in the cab of the Crescent Ltd. across the Cascade mountains. Try and model that! My crews keep burning their hands on the huge lightbulbs in my TYCO passenger cars at station stops.


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