# Starter Sets or not?



## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

We are looking to move up from N/HO to O on a 4x8 layout. We were looking at the starter kits but all the Lionel sets were using the Fastrack. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to use Fastrack. But without a starter set price goes way up. Any suggestions/opinions?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

It depends on how deep into O scale you're planning on getting. A starter set gets you going (you'll at least be able to use the engine, cars, straight track and transformer if you expand) without breaking he bank. I've got two fastrack starter sets and am planning on moving up to O-72 diameter curves (instead of the 36" diameter curves included with the set) soon so I can get some bigger cars and locomotives. I've also got a ton of the straight tracks that I've bought over time. FT is a bit expensive but I've found it to be a good track system and isn't so bad on the wallet if you buy a little bit at a time. You should be able to fit the oval included with a set on a 4x8 table easily.

I would go for a starter set to get you going, then add pieces as you desire. I started with a simple starter set 13 years ago and now have around 15 locomotives and 40 cars.

I know that's a lot of information thrown at you at once (not sure how familiar you are with the O scale stuff) so feel free to ask any other questions.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You can always sell the oval of Fastrack and use the track of your choice. Fastrack isn't all that expensive, it's the switches and other stuff like activation tracks that will kill you in the wallet!


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

Didn't really think about selling the Fastrack - that might work. Was looking for a starter set without Fastrack and didn't see one.

My wife is looking at the layout's on Thor's site. We were surprised at what could be done in 4x8 or less. That was the biggest reason we hadn't gone to O before - didn't think we could do much in that space. Of course all those layouts are switch heavy!


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

I dont really think Fastrack is all that bad, it does have a cool look to it with the roadbed etc. I plan on having an O31 loop inside my Fastrack layout once I get around to building it. O27 really fits in tight spaces but be aware that not all really cool Locomotives will work on it, I can imagine building a big O27 layout and then buying a Locomotive that will not work on that tight a curve.


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

Fastraack might not be bad but as mentioned earlier it gets expensive for switches and other pieces.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

You will pay big dollars for a starter set. Go O standard three rail. Track and transformers are cheap on Ebay. For the train and cars, again Ebay. Need track, pay the shipping and I'll send you some. It is what you want and what you want to pay. Personally I do not buy new when I can get almost everything used and good shape on Ebay at a lesser price. Fastrack is nice but many of use the old stndby - Lionel three rail.

B


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

Isn't getting stuff on e-bay pretty hit and miss? Do you have any dealers to recommend?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

shael_richmond said:


> Didn't really think about selling the Fastrack - that might work. Was looking for a starter set without Fastrack and didn't see one.
> 
> My wife is looking at the layout's on Thor's site. We were surprised at what could be done in 4x8 or less. That was the biggest reason we hadn't gone to O before - didn't think we could do much in that space. Of course all those layouts are switch heavy!


4x8 looks good in the plans, but once you build it you will want another 4x8 to add to it.

How much total space can you devote to the layout?
For O....O/27 the bigger the better.
If you can, plan bigger from the start.

You could have bought some of the items Hammered offered here, then get the tube track,(if that is what you wanted) and the transformer etc later. 

Heck he had the transformer and track too, I think he still has track.

If you want a new set buy it then sell the track like mentioned.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

shael_richmond said:


> Isn't getting stuff on e-bay pretty hit and miss? Do you have any dealers to recommend?


You need to read the descriptions carefully, and go with ones that provide a good description, as well as returns. That way you only risk shipping one way if it isn't as represented. When I sell on eBay, I try to give as accurate a description as possible, and also post lots of high resolution pictures.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Not really a hit or miss. An no real trick to it. Seriously look at everything Lionel for a week or so. That will give you an idea of what's available and at what price, bid and final sale. Something that I did not do when I started buying on Ebay. Figure out what you want and then look for it. Take your time. It will save you $'s. I buy from any dealer. Price and what I want to pay is where it's at. Out of fifty or so purchases I got took by one because of shoddy description and returned one item again based on description. Most sellers/dealers are either making a living off Ebay or are adding to their income so I don't think they are out to get you... Sellers are rated by buyers and most keep their ratings high. Gunruner's advise is good too. Have at it. Do not buy the "buy it now" stuff, usually overpriced unless it is something you can't find regularly or elsewhere.

B


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

Ok that makes sense, but brings up other questions. Track/switches are easiest enough but what to look for using o27 in a transformer and engines? Saw a 80w pulled from a starter set or should I look a bit bigger. Looking for a steam engine but all kinds are out there. The layout we are considering is about 48' of track with 7 switches when all done. Think we can do it in stages adding a couple switches and additional track each stage.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

The bigger the better as far as transformers go. but the 80 should be a minimum.
Your budget and how big you will eventually go has a lot to do with that decision, if you plan on having a nice layout with several trains and accessories a bigger transformer is needed.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If you are considering running a single train, or perhaps two, I'd be looking at stuff in the 80-90 watt range as a minimum, for two trains, just add a transformer, you need two handles anyway.  The best value in transformers of higher power tends to be the Lionel KW, I've picked up several of those for less than $50 on eBay and just replaced the power cord and polished them up. That's 190 watts of capacity, more than enough for most small layouts.

Switches are actually pretty hard to judge, since most of them are sold as-is, and many don't work. I've bought a boatload of switches and reconditioned them for my use and I've also sold some. Generally, if a PW locomotive and/or cars looks good and the pictures are detailed enough, there's not a lot wrong with it. It's not until you get to the ones with lots of electronics that you need to be a bit more careful in your purchases. Also, most PW stuff can be repaired, usually pretty simply, and you'll have lots of help here in the forum.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Search ebay: "lionel transformer". Here-http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL-PREWAR-POSTWAR-TYPE-R-TRANSFORMER-100-WATT-/270803849244?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3f0d2ad01c is a 90 type R for $52, A minimum as gunrunner and jried suggest. For a 150 watts an older Type V is here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-150-...881302?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19c9815f16.

Do a ebay seach for "lionel trains sets". There are some listed for $100 for starters and then up in price.

Yes you can do the layout in stages as time and money permits. Lots of money if you fall in love with this stuff.

"0" gauge is 1:48 and "027" is 1:64 scale. O27 track curves are 27 inch radius and O is 31 inch radius the most common used. 027 Track height is lower than 0 track height. If you shim up 027 it can be used with 0. Mixing 0 and 027 curved sections will give you some problems because of different radius's.


All "027" engines and cars will run on "0" track. Not all "0" engines will run on "027" track because of the different curved track radiuss.

I think most of us use 0 switch (Lionel 022 switch). Either gunrunner or tj uses 027 switches and I'll defer to there opinion of them.

Hope that I am not confusing you.

As stated by other, when help is needed you are in the right place.

B


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't recommend the Type V, simply because it has no horn button, it's strictly for AC power. The Type R has the same issue, no horn button. I also have a Type V here, I plan on using it for powering accessories, it has the four variable outputs, which makes it easy to have each accessory get the right voltage.

As far as the type R, $52 is far too much for that transformer! I just sold a nice 1033 to someone here for $20, and I see them regularly on eBay in a similar price range. For 10 extra watts, over double the price is simply too much. If you're going to spend $52, hold out for the KW, a much better deal. TJ and Big Ed use 027, I found them problematic and decided to go to plain O.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

IMHO, the best bang transformer for the buck if you want to run conventional is the KW. 190 watts and they can be had for as little as $35 if they need a little repair. 

BB


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

inxy said:


> "0" gauge is 1:48 and "027" is 1:64 scale.
> 
> All "027" engines and cars will run on "0" track. Not all "0" engines will run on "027" track because of the different curved track radiuss.
> 
> I think most of us use 0 switch (Lionel 022 switch). Either gunrunner or tj uses 027 switches and I'll defer to there opinion of them.


Quick clarification ... O gauge refers to the track rail-to-rail spacing, not to the specific scale of the model. In that, O and O27 track have the same exact gauge, though different rail heights (and radii), as you said.

O-scale varies with Lionel trains. Lionel is notorious for taking liberties with the proportions of its trains, especially its older pre- post-war stuff. This thread offers some revealing examples ...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=5126

I'm running O27 track with a few manual switches. I hate it. My prewar tinplate locos cannot navigate through the switches easily. At some point, I'll scrap the O27, and switch to O track.

Cheers,

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, if you change out your O-27 switches to Marx metal switches, your prewar trains will go through them OK. They will accept any flange size without a problem. IMHO, they are the best switches Marx ever made.

Bruce Baker


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Hmmm ...

I hadn't thought about Marx switches, but that's a good suggestion. Do Marx switches "pin" easily to Lionel O27 track easily? (Rail height, pin diameter, etc.)

Does the curve on a Marx switch follow/mate to a 27" diam circle?

I'm intrigued. There's a big train show in MA in January ... I'll keep my eye open for a couple of switches to try.

Thanks,

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Marx track matches O-27 exactly. In addition, you can find Marx track with O-27 profile that is 34 inch radius, and I believe you can find switches to match.

The Marx switches run off of transformer power, so there is no need for a constant voltage plug. However, you are on your own for a non-derailing circuit. I believe the coils are totally isolated from the switch and that both power and ground are supplied directly from the transformer. It shouldn't be too difficult to make a non-derailing circuit using some of Bob Nelson's ideas.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Bruce.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

TJ, a couple of more things about the metal Marx switches. They will not snag the sliding shoes on Lionel engines and cars. They also don't have a problem with a large gap in the center rail as of the two rails which move to throw the switch, one is connected to the outside rail, and the other is connected to the center rail. All in all, a very clever design.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Sets-Vi...l_RR_Trains&hash=item3a6b1df2b8#ht_951wt_1270


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I know we have a thread or two here on Marx switches. (T-Man, maybe?) I'll do some searching.

You've really intrigued me. It could help, too, with my spaced-limited layout to stick with 27" diam.

T-Man, Ed, John, etc. -- any other insight here?

Cheers,

TJ


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

I believe the Marx switches will work with anything that will run on O-27 track. I have a 736 running on a loop with some O-27. I know the 736 will not go through the Lionel 1122 switches but I am sure it will go through the Marx switches. I also have a 2353 running on O-27 without a problem. I don't know if a 2333 or 2343 will run on O-27. 

I just checked eBay for Marx switches, and there are many for sale, including a pair from "Mister Buy It Now" for $80!!!! I can't believe this guy is selling anything. Prices are too high by about 2x. But as P.T. Barnum said, "There is a sucker born every minute."
BB


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

servoguy said:


> IMHO, the best bang transformer for the buck if you want to run conventional is the KW. 190 watts and they can be had for as little as $35 if they need a little repair.
> 
> BB


See previous post.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I've seen Marx switches on several layouts, they generally had good things to say. There was someone in the forum that had them on a layout, but I think he was replacing them, maybe he has some to sell.


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## Badwolf & Arizona RR (Jun 17, 2011)

Not to change tempo here, but I am using FasTrack, as i have it and it'll work with most locomotives and rolling stock in which I am interested.

As for starter sets, which one, given the choice, would you go with? Would it give you a good bang for the buck? I don't need another transformer, but can always sell it or keep it as back-up.

Just wondering.

Thanks.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, I have some Fastrack here, and about the 3rd locomotive I put on it had a problem on the switches. It was a Williams GG-1, their original model. I had converted it to TMCC/Railsounds, and then I find out it doesn't like Fastrack at all!

I took the guts out and put them into a K-Line GG-1, sold the Williams one on eBay.


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## Badwolf & Arizona RR (Jun 17, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> FWIW, I have some Fastrack here, and about the 3rd locomotive I put on it had a problem on the switches. It was a Williams GG-1, their original model. I had converted it to TMCC/Railsounds, and then I find out it doesn't like Fastrack at all!
> 
> I took the guts out and put them into a K-Line GG-1, sold the Williams one on eBay.


Does anyone know of the Williams "773" will work with the FasTrack stuff? I seem to think that it will (Video deja-vu from SantaFe), and I'd like to get one someday. It's a gorgeous locomotive.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Badwolf & Arizona RR said:


> Does anyone know of the Williams "773" will work with the FasTrack stuff? I seem to think that it will (Video deja-vu from SantaFe), and I'd like to get one someday. It's a gorgeous locomotive.



Yeah, I run mine on O-36 FT with no problems (just take it easy through the switches, it does derail every now and then if I go too fast). If you have wider radius curves, not only would it look better, it might run a bit better too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k621Vhqm_GQ&feature=channel_video_title


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Badwolf & Arizona RR said:


> Not to change tempo here, but I am using FasTrack, as i have it and it'll work with most locomotives and rolling stock in which I am interested.
> 
> As for starter sets, which one, given the choice, would you go with? Would it give you a good bang for the buck? I don't need another transformer, but can always sell it or keep it as back-up.
> 
> ...


I have an 0-8-0 BSA set from Lionel. The engine is nice looking but I have some work to do to get it running right (can't remember exactly what the problem is, but I don't think the wheels were pressed onto the axles straight, they have a slight wobble). As I said, the engine looks great, kind of a high speed for a switcher, but it's a starter locomotive. I also have one of the FT diesel passenger sets (santa fe) which is nice too. Not the most detailed things, but the engine looks good, runs good and pulls a lot. Any of the 0-6-0 docksider sets would also be nice, I have the SP&S one I bought in a set breakup and that is also a very nice engine.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

shael_richmond said:


> We are looking to move up from N/HO to O on a 4x8 layout. We were looking at the starter kits but all the Lionel sets were using the Fastrack. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to use Fastrack. But without a starter set price goes way up. Any suggestions/opinions?





tjcruiser said:


> Hmmm ...
> 
> I hadn't thought about Marx switches, but that's a good suggestion. Do Marx switches "pin" easily to Lionel O27 track easily? (Rail height, pin diameter, etc.)
> 
> ...


I never had a Marx switch.

What I do know, it seems that richmond's thread got hijacked.hwell:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> I never had a Marx switch.
> 
> What I do know, it seems that richmond's thread got hijacked.hwell:


Well, this information may be useful to him... :laugh:


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Well, this information may be useful to him... :laugh:



Maybe if he knows what a Marx is.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

big ed said:


> Maybe if he knows what a Marx is.


That's why we're here.


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## jreid (May 9, 2011)

if one wants to get started cheap, a Marx 666 is a great first engine, most have smoke units too. I see them going for $25 or less quite often, but they are not new and not Lionel quality but good cheap fun none the less. A 666 teamed up with a Lionel tender so it can pull Lionel cars and a great way to get into it for less money till you decide to spend more.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, you can get many PW Lionel locomotives for that price range on eBay, I see them all the time.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

SantaFe, If the wheels on your BSA wobble, take a pair of pliers and grab the wheel and gently bend it straight. The axles are relatively soft and will bend easily. Don't worry about breaking the wheel. They are quite strong. I have an 0-4-0 dockside switcher that had wobbly wheels.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

Anyone who doesn't know what a Marx switch looks like can go on eBay and put in "Marx switch" and get several to look at, both manual and automatic. I would stay away from the plastic ones as they really don't work very well. They need a guard rail for the frog on the divergent path. The compromises Marx had to make so the switches would work with the fat wheel engines make them prone to causing other engines to derail. 
Bruce Baker


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

We found an old, unused set on eBay that we won. Supposedly never been used from 1999-2000 or so. It had regular track but the downside was the small transformer(40w).

So is there anything special we should do to the engine after sitting so long? Or just put it on the track and see if it runs?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

What's the exact set. At a minimum, I'd lube the locomotive, that's 11-12 years of sitting in a box.


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

LIONEL 6-21948 NY CENTRAL FLYER TRAIN SET

So exactly what to lube? We just put a dab of oil on our N-engines.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

There are gears that should not be running dry, you can see them from the bottom of the locomotive. For AC Pulmore motors, I also put a drop of oil on the armature axles, that requires removing the shell.


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## servoguy (Jul 10, 2010)

5W-20 motor oil works very well for both gears and bearings.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

That's the very set I started with. The transformer is just fine for running that set with a few add ons.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Does this one have Railsounds or is it the mechanical whistle version?


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

It says whistle and optional railsounds so not sure.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

santafe158 said:


> That's the very set I started with. The transformer is just fine for running that set with a few add ons.


Guess that's not the set I started with, it's got a 4-6-4 steamer, not a 4-4-2 like mine. 

I think the "Optional Railsounds" means that you could have gotten the set with an Air whistle (usually a little cheaper) or spend a little more money and you'd have the same set with Railsounds.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I knew that, I was wondering if his has Railsounds.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I knew that, I was wondering if his has Railsounds.


I figured you knew, I was just making sure he did (he seemed confused in the his last post) :laugh:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Good point.


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## shael_richmond (Oct 10, 2011)

Well we got our set yesterday and it's up and running. Did look brand new even if it was 10-12 years old. Is there anyway to tell the exact year?

Had one problem, on one piece of straight track the center rail shorted to the outer rails. Took a while to figure out and ended up testing each piece of track with a meter! Removed it and the train ran fine, whistles and all.

And no it didn't have the railsounds.

Now just waiting for more track and switches to arrive to give it a good test.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

shael_richmond said:


> LIONEL 6-21948 NY CENTRAL FLYER TRAIN SET


This site would suggest it was offered in 2000 ...

http://www.legacystation.com/LionelShippingDates.htm

If you have tubular track, the center rail is insulated from the outer rails at each crosstie via a small piece of cardboard-like material. You can repair/replace that, if you want to reuse the track.

TJ


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## Badwolf & Arizona RR (Jun 17, 2011)

Bought a "starter set" of "Doc's Express" - stated to be a limited run of 1000 sets.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/clt/2640140967.html

I figured it would foot the bill as a second train for the Christmas layout.

The stuff looks nigh-on unused.

Very Happy.

- Paul in AZ


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## Badwolf & Arizona RR (Jun 17, 2011)

Set it up and it works fine.

What's the difference between a Power Max unit and a CW-80 unit? They kinda look the same.

- Paul in AZ


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Power max is only 30 or 40 Watts (I think 40) and a CW-80 is 80 Watts and also has accessory power terminals.


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