# N Scale Kato turnouts confusion



## xrunner

Well, I got myself all confused. I got to surfing regarding Kato turnouts and how they route power and now I'm not sure what to believe after all I read. Basically, do the #6 turnouts have to be "fixed" for proper DCC operation (apparently the #4 turnouts have screws to configure them but not the #6)? From what I read on this site -

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_kato.htm

they are power routing switches and have to be modded to stop them from power routing. But other places I've read seem to indicate that they work just fine as-is. Does anyone here have any experience with this issue? It seems strange that the two switches would be so different.

Also, some places said to avoid #4 turnouts as they are too tight of a curve, and to stay with #6 turnouts only. Is that true?


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## NIMT

You are 100% right in your research!
I think they have re-engineered the new #6's to make them DCC friendly, but have not got a total conformation on that! 
The fix for the #6's will work fine for you even on the older ones because your not running any really short loco's or diesels.
And yes #4's are really tight to get a standard size Loco or Diesel threw them!


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> You are 100% right in your research!
> I think they have re-engineered the new #6's to make them DCC friendly, but have not got a total conformation on that!


I haven't found any information on that re-design. But I'm totally confused as to what the guy is saying on his web page. Are you really telling me I have to do all that to use Kato #6 turnouts. Good grief.

If the power is shut off from either of the two directions can't you just run power to the tracks in more places? Has anyone here had experience with this Kato issue and could explain it in clearer terms than the link I posted?


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## xrunner

See what this guy says -

"On the #6's, I add feeders to the tracks on the other side of the frog so as to just bypass the power routing that the switch is trying to do."

http://www.nscale.net/forums/showth...track-Turnout-Power-Routing&p=79755#post79755

Apparently this is how they operate -










Why is the guy at www.wiringfordcc.com saying to do all those mods to the Kato #6 switch? I don't get it.

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_kato.htm


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## gunrunnerjohn

xrunner said:


> Why is the guy at www.wiringfordcc.com saying to do all those mods to the Kato #6 switch? I don't get it.
> 
> http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_kato.htm


Maybe that was an older design of the switch?


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## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Maybe that was an older design of the switch?


I dunno ... I'm soooooo confused right now my brain is mush.

I've read up on this all afternoon and I can find as many people who say don't worry about it just use it as don't. Kato's site really has no information on it that helps. But, I can't really see what the big deal is even reading the Gartner's DCC wiring pages. 

The only "bad" thing I can understand is that the #6 turnout routes power, and that's easy to remedy by just having more power drops on your layout, and that's what others have said - it's no big deal. So I just can't understand the minutia that Allen Gartner is getting into with the turnout. My God, it can't be that complicated or the average person would be screwed trying to get a setup going!


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## NIMT

xrunner,
The problem with the switches is multi fold.
#1 When a engine or any metal wheeled unit crosses these points (in picture below) it has the ability to short out the two rails and thus shutting the system down. No easy fix on this N scale turnout. but because of the size of the gap might not cause an issue!







#2 Power routing was meant to be a switch to turn on and off power to a spur track or diverging track, it's an old DC pass over; Run an engine onto a spur and switch turn out, power went out to engine, engine sat on dead rails, power now back on to rest of non diverging track. As stated Bad idea, just power all the rails and that will eliminate the power routing problem!


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## sstlaure

I've been told numerous times to avoid #4 turnouts if I want to run larger cars/engines.....however, my entire staging yard is made up of #4's and I run some seriously large engines/cars (89' tri level car carrier, double stack container cars and 6 wheel engines (SD60) and haven't had ANY problems at all with my cars/engines running through them. 

I tend to run my engines at slower, more prototypical speeds, so maybe high speed running through those switches is the issue.


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> xrunner,
> #1 When a engine or any metal wheeled unit crosses these points (in picture below) it has the ability to short out the two rails and thus shutting the system down. No easy fix on this N scale turnout. but because of the size of the gap might not cause an issue!


Thanks for trying to explain it, but I'm still confused about why the whole thing is such a concern. Here's why -

As I read on another forum, if it's not DCC friendly then it's not DC friendly either. In other words if it shorts out the track then it will do so for either DCC or DC operation. The guy on Wiring For DCC says it's not a "DCC Friendly" switch, apparently because of what you are saying. But ... it is what it is and I can't find any complaints regarding this as a problem. It's been produced for years. This guy says -



> A potential issue is that while the frog polarity changes when the switch is thrown (see diagram below), the two point rails leading to the frog do not switch, meaning that close to the frog there are two rails of opposite polarity. This isn’t a problem with most cars, but a seriously out-of-gauge wheelset could short the rails. This is particularly problematic with DCC.


http://www.sumidacrossing.org/ModelTrains/TrackandRoadbed/KatoUnitrack/UnitrackSwitchesEtc/

Well, all my rolling stock has plastic wheels for one thing, so they can't short out a switch, and I don't think any locomotive with a wheelset so out of kilter as to bridge the gap would even run down the track. See the pic below for the #6 switch gap that would have to short out -










Here's some comments about the #6 switch -

"I have 135 Kato #6 turnouts in my layout. Some have been in service for 11 years. In that time I have had one failure due to an internal short in the mechanism and that turnout was replaced by Kato USA. "

"I've used them for years, and they've always been flawlessly reliable. No tweaking, no mods - just about perfect right out of the pack Concur with signalew that #6 might be a bit more than a door layout can chew."

"I have also used them for years, and never really had a problem, Although their is some stuff you can do to improve them, but it is a lot of work for little gain. It involves filing the outside rail on either side to make a angled groove to allow the points to rest in. But like I said, lots of work, not much diffrence really."

"I've used some of my #6's for 20 years with no problems at all. "

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66366



> #2 Power routing was meant to be a switch to turn on and off power to a spur track or diverging track, it's an old DC pass over; Run an engine onto a spur and switch turn out, power went out to engine, engine sat on dead rails, power now back on to rest of non diverging track. As stated Bad idea, just power all the rails and that will eliminate the power routing problem!


So, yea I guess _theoretically_, _possibly_, _maybe_, it could cause a problem, but in reality? I just don't see why the Wiring For DCC guy is getting people so spun-up over it (like me).

I'm going to go get one if I can find one today and do some investigating, it's about time I got a switch to play with anyway. I'll report back what I find.


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## gunrunnerjohn

If a switch is not DCC or DC friendly, it's not much of a switch!


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## xrunner

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If a switch is not DCC or DC friendly, it's not much of a switch!


Agreed. Seeing as how I cannot find any evidence of any mass-issue regarding this switch Googling the internet, I must conclude that the man writing about it on Wiring for DCC is overly anal-retentive about it. Now, I can't really complain about that too much since I can be the same way, but it sure caused me to worry about my choice of track!


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## NIMT

Xrunner, 
Yes this problem on the Kato N scale switches is blown way out of proportion! You have a lot less Current requirements in N than you do In HO and in HO those problems can make or break a good layout.
I agree with sstlaure I too have hundreds of #4 and if your not a speed demon they work fine!
Oh and get two Turnouts, They like hanging out in pairs!
And in Kato N if you want remote turnout's don't get manual one's they won't upgrade like the atlas! Switch machine is built inside of it!
Your controller will tell you if you have a problem with the turnouts, and will just shut down, that's one major advantage to a good controller!


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## xrunner

Went to one of the LHS today but they didn't have any Kato switches (they did before). I did pick up a DS52 stationary decoder though to use later, and I can test it out with the system I'm getting soon and I can see if it responds to a command with my 'scope (yea I have an oscilloscope). The guy said was I looking for more Kato track and I said yes. He said would I be interested in looking at a box of new Kato track he had at home. I said yea but I'm not sure how much money I want to spend at the moment. He said he would sell it to me for 1/2 price! 

Wow. I said yea bring it tomorrow and I'll be there.


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## Xnats

I have no problems with my #6's, running DCC. I installed an insulator on the inner spur rail.(Your pic - top blue and black line on the spur) A Bachmann GE 44 ton switcher and 2 Kato P42 run them with no problems. I do have power drops on every section of track though. On back to back spurs on the #6s, I insulated both rails.


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## xrunner

Xnats said:


> I have no problems with my #6's, running DCC. I installed an insulator on the inner spur rail.(Your pic - top blue and black line on the spur) A Bachmann GE 44 ton switcher and 2 Kato P42 run them with no problems. I do have power drops on every section of track though. On back to back spurs on the #6s, I insulated both rails.


OK thanks for the info!


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## xrunner

I obtained 4 #6 Kato turnouts today. I had two loops of track with power drops to each loop already so after verifying that the DC voltages were going to match properly on the corresponding loops of track, I inserted the turnouts to connect the 2 loops & enter and leave the loops. 

No problems or issues whatsoever. Train runs fine and doesn't lose power going in any direction.

Note: I am switching them manually at the moment, as I plan to use first the Digitrax handheld controller and then computer control with stationary decoders.


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## NIMT

xrunner,
Word of warning some things that work for DC, do not work in DCC.
When you get your new system you might need to tweek the rail isolaters to get everything to work. But it sounds like your doing a great job of jumping into this, you never get anywhere if you don't try!


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> xrunner,
> Word of warning some things that work for DC, do not work in DCC.


Such as ... :dunno:


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## NIMT

Hummm...Makeing me think this late is dangerous...Switches can be DC working and not DCC working or what they call DCC Friendly.
Some crossings., and layout designs like loops and Wye's.
Sometimes you won't even notice anything till you run an engine threw a layout design.
You have the advantage that you are using Kato track, they have done some major design work to make their track system work with DCC.
You might never run into any problems at all! Just remember this if all of the sudden your engine or controller starts acting weird or unpredictable!


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> Just remember this if all of the sudden your engine or controller starts acting weird or unpredictable!


Well my Digitrax DCC system is arriving Monday so we're going to find out what works and what doesn't very soon at this location.


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## NIMT

You will love the Digitrax DCC system your getting! I have had mine for years and it has never disappointed me!


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## xrunner

NIMT said:


> You will love the Digitrax DCC system your getting! I have had mine for years and it has never disappointed me!


Yea that's great, but I'm notorious for figuring out how to break otherwise bug-proof (supposedly) consumer products. Sooner or later I'll press a combination of buttons that will make my trains do something weird and nobody will be able to explain what happened. You can bank on it.


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## Xnats

Be sure to post how everything comes together  I'll enjoy the popcorn this time around, since your layout is a mirror of mine. I'm so glad I made it past that stage :laugh: cuz it was annoying


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