# unpowered switches



## RedOctober (Mar 16, 2011)

i have a question that is probably considered stupid by the pros. i have a switch that is not automatic. its in a complete circuit and when it is on the main line it works fine, but right when i move the switch the whole track dies on the main line and on the break off. how do i get this to work correctly????


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think you'll have to be specific as to the exact make/model of the switch to start.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Sounds to me like your main line and diverging lines have the pos/neg leads wired opposite of each other. When you switch to the diverging line it's causing a short.


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## RedOctober (Mar 16, 2011)

im not entirely sure on make and model. i bought like 5million miles of track from this guy for $200 about a year ago and all of the switches are unpowered. there are a few that have an automatic switch but they dont appear to be in very good shape so i opted to go with the unpowered cleaner ones. i will take a few photos later today and post them here to better explain. i need to solder all of the connections around the track, but i wasnt sure if a switch needed an alternate power supply, or what the deal was... 

right when i start to move the switch away from the main line it loses power. if the rails are not touching the whole set immediately loses power. maybe just a bad switch???


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Do you have multiple feeder wires running into the track or is the power going into the track in only 1 place and you're relying on the connections between track sections to keep continuity?


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## RedOctober (Mar 16, 2011)

for now its just one connection on a 4x8 table. i intend to have 4 connections as well as soldering all track connections once i get it in the exact layout that i want. only problem is i have about 7 inches of elevation between the table and the track. i built a mountainous terrain using plaster on top of a formed base. so i will have to drill through plaster and paper and eventually wood to have lead wires going to multiple locations. on top of that, the first switch that i am using breaks off to a section of track that goes up a gradient that is intended to connect to a second 4x8 at a higher elevation. how many connections should i have on a 8x8 table?


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

That's most likely your problem. Is the one power feeder you have going into a switch? If so, when you move the switch, you're losing continuity on one of the rails thus opening the circuit.

I went a bit overboard and ran feeders to every section off of a main bus line that I ran underneath all of the track (I must have at least 100 feeders on an 11x13 layout)....that being said, most don't do what I did, but I never wanted a continuity problem and it works for me. There is no easy answer other than you want enough feeders so that you don't see a big voltage drop and so that you don't have continuity issues. You definitely don't want to rely on track joiners to keep the current running the full length of your layout.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

One rule of thumb is feeder every 3 feet or less.
Is this layout DC or DCC?


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## TapRoot (Oct 3, 2010)

3ft or less? damn that may explain my jerky train....I have two feeders total for over 100ft....lol, ummm ill go buy some wires now


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## Box Car Steve (Feb 21, 2011)

*feeders?*

OK whats a feeder? or yet a diagram which will educate me! I'm still learning this stuff so please help me out. Alos does it matter what size wire you use? Diagrams help me alot to understand how it hooks to the track and where the wire start and end. Sorry so many questions!

BOX Car


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Take a look at these pics. (These are some old pics of my layout) You can see the large gauge red/white wires that I have that run parallel to the track underneath the roadbed/track surface. For each section I then run a smaller gauge wire up through the roadbed and solder to the outer edge of the rails for each track section (keeping red with red and white with white). I don't rely at all on the joiners between rail sections for circuit continuity and don't solder my rail sections together. Feeders are the small wires that run from the Buss wires (big wire)

The smaller gauge wires will lose voltage quicker over longer lengths of run. I want to say I used 12 or 14 gauge for my Buss and 18 or 22awg for the feeders. 

I have separate Buss wires for each block on the layout (I have a total of 8 currently - 4 mainline, 3 sidings and the turntable) I then have probably 10-15 sets of feeder wires for each block. Each Buss feeds back to a switch (I can run 2 separate powerpacks on my layout.) I also have 1 wye and 1 return loop. Where I want to separate the blocks I used isolated joiners (plastic.)




























You can see the switches attached along the inside of the island in this view - on the RHS are the main blocks/switches, on the LHS are the roundhouse/turntable controls


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

that rule of thumb is not really a rule. why 3? and not 2 or 4 or whatever number? if all the rail joins are good or soldered, one feeder is perfectly enough for anything household. there is simply not enough track to have noticeable power drop.

here the issue sims to be a turnout not passing power from one rote to another . perhaps this is by design. so OP has to account for this when wiring his layout. you still haven't answered what turnout is it that you using



sstlaure said:


> The smaller gauge wires will lose voltage quicker over longer lengths of run. I want to say I used 12 or 14 gauge for my Buss and 18 or 22awg for the feeders.


open a guide and see what length the wire should be before you start getting any semi-noticeable drop. i see nothing close on your layout pics to necessitate 18 let alone 12. but i guess some always tend to over do it.


i used gage 8(IIRC) to wire my electric range . it probably would have been great for the layout as well. but somehow i find the tiny gauge 24 (network cable pairs) fine for everthing


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

OK Just a little explanation right now post diagram later.
Key components to a good running N,HO Railroad, O plays a different game and has different rules!
Good power supply/transformer/controller
Good power distribution, 14 gauge to 10 gauge buss line (main feed wires that roughly follow the track above).
Good drops or feeders, 24 to 20 gauge wires soldered to rails and dropped down to the buss line. approx. every 3 feet or less.
Simple rules to follow,
If you have a lot connections soldering the rail joiners is a good idea!
Wiring all 3 sides of a turnout is a good idea to cut down on loss.
If running DCC never make a LOOP in the buss lines, Causes problems!Loops in rails require a reverser circuit!
If running DCC make sure that you are running DCC friendly Turnouts/switches.
Unfriendly or hostile turnouts/switches will short the system out when you move the turnout/switch points or when running a loco across the rails.
There are 2 major terms and one minor one to learn the difference of.
Electrical shorts, positive meets negative, or blue rail meets red rail, both cause power supply/transformer/controller, to either shutdown, power down, trip a circuit breaker or overload or burn up!
Electrical opens, means just what it says there is something that physically stops the voltage from getting from point A to point B or C.
Minor term Involves shorting out an item with out a safety or overload control, Its called letting the smoke out, or frying, burning up, toasting, cooking, killing, or F.O.B.A.R.ing something! All of which are BAD Very BAD!


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## TapRoot (Oct 3, 2010)

redundant post.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I solder O-gauge track together and have a feeder at strategic points. While I'm sure it works, I think every 3 feet is a bit over the top.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

wire resistance calculator - http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

so #24 or #18? 
10 feet run of gauge 24 wire (abundant phone/network cable) is 0.25 ohm
10 feet run of gauge of #18 is 0.06. while in percentages the difference might seem significant in reality we talking about whooping 0.2 ohm.
by applying simple ohm law we can find out that at full power (18V) a guzzly locomotive pulling 500Miliamps (grossly exaggerated) translates into exactly 0.1V drop difference between the 2 wires - *Negligible*!

but the funniest thing happens when you try and compare gauge #18 transmission losses to gauge 12-14. the difference there is even more vague (0.02V per 10 feet for those curious) so those insisting on heavier gauge are well, lets just say overdoing it  if one wants to over do it - fine by me. but no need to pose it as absolute necessity or rule.

of course the things start to get more complicated with added length but unless one wants to wire big club layout getting over #18 is moot (if that at all).


remember, you use your #18 power cord with 1.5 Amp circular saw (out of 2.3Amps allowed per US standard for power transmitting). even if you not verse in subject of electricity you still can guess that chances are good one can get by with much less for couple 18V motors and lights


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I have TMCC engines that suck down 5A at 18V when they're pulling a decent sized train, so the drop is a lot more significant when you're running O-scale.  With a 135 watt Powermaster, I can't run two trains without a voltage drop.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

1. we are in HO scale forum so i assume we discuss HO.
2.your engine is probably AC then. calculations are different for AC (in AC favor)
3. 18V*5A is 90 Watt. are you sure it is pulling that much? there better be some cooling fan in your engine to prevent plastic from melting. to compare, 5A is a power of good cordless drill.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I've measured it with an A/C amp meter at around 4A draw to the track running a smaller line of cars. When I get my layout up again, I'll be going for the really long trains, that should tax things.


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## RedOctober (Mar 16, 2011)

this seems to have gotten off subject a little lol and i see no problem with every 3 feet. why not? why not 2 or 4? cuz 3 worked for him. i plan on installing a connection point every 3-4 feet on my table, just trying to figure the best way to do it. ive attached some images to show what i'm dealing with.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I drilled small holes between the ties against the outboard side of the rail through the sub-roadbed and fed the small gauge wire down through it. I bent the wire into an L shape, then bend the short part of the L 90 degrees inboard so that the wire rested right into the fillet of the bottom of the outboard side of the rail and soldered it. 

Even without ballast you can hardly see it. Once I ballast the track it will disappear.

I'll have to take some pics.


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## Xnats (Dec 5, 2010)

I would add insulators at the red locations on all you turnouts. This will prevent some headaches later on down the road. 
Layout in general is looking real good:thumbsup: minus the track going up the hill :laugh: That is one steep hill  If you are only running one train a DC system, every three feet should be good. If you plan on DCC in the future, now would be the time to think about that. Closer feeders or soldering rail-connectors ect.


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## RedOctober (Mar 16, 2011)

i know its a very tough incline but i had to get over the top of that base track pretty quick haha and i have a few very strong locomotives that can power up that hill no problem even with 10 or 12 heavy cars. i intend on having a flat-ground 4x8 on the far side of the current table so that i can have that incline go up to a flat-ground city area with a yard, turn-tables, etc. and then drop back down to the current table on the other side. we'll see...

two questions about your post:

what are insulators? 

what is the difference between DC and DCC??

sorry if thats a stupid question.. im kind of a n00b


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Old style switch, fine for DC not DCC friendly.
That kind of switch requires you to power all the sides, It was originally designed to do power routing.
Small layout give it a few connections and it will be fine.


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## tankist (Jun 11, 2009)

insulator - insulating rail joiner, holds it physically but insulates electrically. 

everything you wanted to know about turnout wiring, DC or DCC , friendly or otherwise 
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

every 3 feet or whatever other number obviously works for him, yes. but in order to call something a *rule * much more serious substantiation is required. i also happen to detest rules  

and yeah, we tend to go of topic here quite often


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

Here's a better view showing the buss/feeder wires and the switch layout.

From left to right are:


Reverse Loop
Wye
Mainline blocks 1-4
Siding blocks 5-7


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## RedOctober (Mar 16, 2011)

thank you all for your comments! i gave up on the switch and just bought a new one for $15. works great now. must have just been old hardware or something. i dunno..
now i have a new problem that ill post about in a second.


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## TapRoot (Oct 3, 2010)

I know this is last page stuff and correct me if im wrong but to calculate voltage drop just multiply the watts by the length of wire and divide by the constant = voltage drop

the constants are
18g - 1380
16g - 2200
14g - 3500
12g - 7500


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