# 1st time for everything



## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

Hello, All

I'm going to build a fresh layout. With new trains. I'm starting with nothing. With zero experience. 

This layout will be a part of a much larger project. I'm going to configure a linux machine to pass commands to the train for automated tasks. I'm then going to build a hosting stack to live stream video of the train performing the automated tasks.

As you can see. This is actually a System Engineer project. But I need some help with the train part.

My parts list so far. 

- BLI - 3428 GE AC6000
- Kato - M2 Basic Oval and Siding + v3 trak set.
- Various pieces of simple rolling stock.

What else am I going to need?? I know this is a broad question but I'm new and have no idea. 

Thanks for reading.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

You lost me at "configure a Linux machine...".hwell: 

I do know that you will be happy with the Kato Unitrack, it's an excellent product and trouble free. Kato makes a power pack for the Unitrack that works with either their N or HO track. Good luck and welcome to the forum.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

Gramps said:


> You lost me at "configure a Linux machine".hwell:
> 
> I do know that you will be happy with the Kato Unitrack, it's an excellent product and trouble free.


Well. Basically. I'm going to set a computer up that will control the train. So, I just need a basic train I can roll around the track. basic shifting of some rolling stock around. Park here, pick up there. Go around the loop for "x" amount of time. then park and switch again. Just a really basic setup. I don't want to get too complicated. Once I work out how all the controlls work, I can expand the track to be more "exciting to watch" later.

Thank you for the pointers on the track.


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## NAJ (Feb 19, 2016)

r/trains said:


> Well. Basically. I'm going to set a computer up that will control the train. So, I just need a basic train I can roll around the track. basic shifting of some rolling stock around. Park here, pick up there. Go around the loop for "x" amount of time. then park and switch again. Just a really basic setup. I don't want to get too complicated.


Welcome To MTF!!!

I am by no means an expert on this but to avoid problems be sure you get decent running locomotives and decent rolling stock.

Somebody else I am sure will chime in but you probably want DCC ready/equipped locomotives.

Couplers, Wheels/Trucks, Weight and Balance also play a large roll in how well and how trouble free your train operation will be.

Even though I have a basic 4 x 6 DC layout with basic rolling stock it took me a while to find the proper rolling stock for the mainline that would play well together without derailments or uncoupling.

Having said all of that, remember...

Enjoy and Have Fun!!!


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

r/trains said:


> Hello, All
> 
> I'm going to build a fresh layout. With new trains. I'm starting with nothing. With zero experience.
> 
> ...


I take it from your parts list that you're running "N" scale. Might want to post over in the N scale forum and ask questions over there. Might get a few more answers.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

NAJ said:


> Welcome To MTF!!!
> 
> I am by no means an expert on this but to avoid problems be sure you get decent running locomotives and decent rolling stock.
> 
> ...


I was not aware of any of this. I figured you just hook N stuff to N stuff on N track. No so easy I guess. I DON'T want DCC. I'm just asking for more headache with that. I can get the pc to control DC Analog controls much easier. Looks like I have my work cut out for me boys.

Thanks for the insight.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, to each his own. From my point of view, letting a computer run your layout is like giving up 2/3 of the fun of having a layout to a machine.

That said, I do have some serious advice -- setting up a layout is NOT as easy as throwing some Nscale rolling stock on N scale track, and you might want to do some more reading before you go any further with your acquisitions. Pretty much everything in the Beginners, Layout Design, and N scale forums.

And, if you want to run multiple,independent locomotives simultaneously, you really do want DCC, because the wiring and switches necessary to do that in straight DC is very complex.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> Well, to each his own. From my point of view, letting a computer run your layout is like giving up 2/3 of the fun of having a layout to a machine.
> 
> That said, I do have some serious advice -- setting up a layout is NOT as easy as throwing some Nscale rolling stock on N scale track, and you might want to do some more reading before you go any further with your acquisitions. Pretty much everything in the Beginners, Layout Design, and N scale forums.
> 
> And, if you want to run multiple,independent locomotives simultaneously, you really do want DCC, because the wiring and switches necessary to do that in straight DC is very complex.


Unfortunately for me. Non of this is going to be fun. I'm actually building this project to showcase my computer skills. Sort of a working concept. Looks good on my linked in. It's a tall order, but I pull it off and there is big juicy employment offers on the other side. Most people can acquire an admin certification in Linux or Networking. few acquire the engineering cert I'm trying to obtain. Fewer yet can show, at the drop of the hat ALL of the skills required to pull this off at the drop of a hat. I'm talking 1/4 mill a year, leased euro sports car, full stack benefits And profit sharing. All without a bachelors degree. What really matters in my industry is, CAN YOU DO IT? My answer is YES I CAN. let me show you.

A question. Does stacking everything from the same manufacture help with reliability? Say KATO track, loco & stock.

Thank you all for the help so far.

Edit: also, Only running one locomotive.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

For track selection, if you want to use Kato track then you're stuck using Kato track. But you don't need to use Kato Locomotives or cars. I'm not sure how you are going to uncouple cars from the locomotive or from each other, I'm not aware of any sure-fire way to do this in N scale. Even in HO scale using Kadee couplers and magnetics its not sure-fire that uncoupling will take place. Speed/direction control and turnout operation under computer control is very doable.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Some advice*



r/trains said:


> Unfortunately for me. Non of this is going to be fun. I'm actually building this project to showcase my computer skills. Sort of a working concept. Looks good on my linked in. It's a tall order, but I pull it off and there is big juicy employment offers on the other side. Most people can acquire an admin certification in Linux or Networking. few acquire the engineering cert I'm trying to obtain. Fewer yet can show, at the drop of the hat ALL of the skills required to pull this off at the drop of a hat. I'm talking 1/4 mill a year, leased euro sports car, full stack benefits And profit sharing. All without a bachelors degree. What really matters in my industry is, CAN YOU DO IT? My answer is YES I CAN. let me show you.
> 
> A question. Does stacking everything from the same manufacture help with reliability? Say KATO track, loco & stock.
> 
> ...


r/trains;

If you intend to switch cars onto/off of sidings, then you are going to need "turnouts" (model railroad term for track switches.) You will need one turnout for each siding, and some interface to let the computer control whether the turnout is set for the siding, or the main track. The electric device that performs this task is called a "switch machine." There are two basic types. the first type is a "twin-coil machine." This consists of two solenoids that pull a short steel rod back and forth. Moving the rod operates a linkage to select the route. The second type is a DC motor which, of course, can be reversed by switching the polarity of the DC current. These motors are "stall motors." When the linkage they operate reaches it's mechanical limit of travel; the motor stays energized and stalls, holding the linkage and turnout in the selected position. I would recommend this type, because of its simplicity. While I know a lot about model railroading, I know very little about computers. I seem to recall that computers often controlled electric hardware devices by providing a ground. I think that would work with a stall motor.
Now that I've "made your day" by introducing another train control complication,  let me answer your question. 
Yes, it would help to use the same (good quality) manufacturer's products for your project. I strongly recommend going with all* Kato brand products. Their quality is excellent. They also make most of what you will need. Their "Unitrack" is easy to set up, and very reliable. They make turnouts to fit unitrack, and I think these have built-in DC motors, though I would check their website www.katousa.com to make sure. Kato also makes excellent, smooth running, locomotives. *Freight cars would be the exception. I recommend using cars from Micro-Trains Co. They come with the best couplers in the hobby already installed. You will also need one of their un-coupling magnets for each siding. Another Micro-Trains item you will need is one of their coupler/track gauge tools. this will help you check and adjust all the couplers to work properly with the magnet. If you, (or in this case the computer) do it right. you can uncouple a car on the magnet and then push it down the siding, and drop it off. To pick it up again , just have the locomotive push two cars together gently. The couplers will link up automatically.
Since you are new to our hobby, I'm going to strongly recommend that you order this book. "Introduction to Model Railroading" by Jeff Wilson. It covers all the basics, better than I can here. You can order a copy from https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/products/books 

good luck, and we're here to help.

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

r/trains said:


> Unfortunately for me. Non of this is going to be fun. I'm actually building this project to showcase my computer skills. Sort of a working concept. Looks good on my linked in. It's a tall order, but I pull it off and there is big juicy employment offers on the other side. Most people can acquire an admin certification in Linux or Networking. few acquire the engineering cert I'm trying to obtain. Fewer yet can show, at the drop of the hat ALL of the skills required to pull this off at the drop of a hat. I'm talking 1/4 mill a year, leased euro sports car, full stack benefits And profit sharing. All without a bachelors degree. What really matters in my industry is, CAN YOU DO IT? My answer is YES I CAN. let me show you.
> 
> A question. Does stacking everything from the same manufacture help with reliability? Say KATO track, loco & stock.
> 
> ...


I see. So you're not a train enthusiast who wants to wander into automated control, you're going for an engineering certification and just happened to pick trains as your control subject. At least that's the impression I'm getting.

The answers you get on here will be from train enthusiasts, and some from those with train control experience. People on here do it for fun, not as a job. Not to dampen your enthusiasm, continue to ask questions. Just pointing out where the answers will be coming from.


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## prrfan (Dec 19, 2014)

r/trains said:


> Unfortunately for me. Non of this is going to be fun. I'm actually building this project to showcase my computer skills. Sort of a working concept. Looks good on my linked in. It's a tall order, but I pull it off and there is big juicy employment offers on the other side. Most people can acquire an admin certification in Linux or Networking. few acquire the engineering cert I'm trying to obtain. Fewer yet can show, at the drop of the hat ALL of the skills required to pull this off at the drop of a hat. I'm talking 1/4 mill a year, leased euro sports car, full stack benefits And profit sharing. All without a bachelors degree. What really matters in my industry is, CAN YOU DO IT? My answer is YES I CAN. let me show you.
> 
> A question. Does stacking everything from the same manufacture help with reliability? Say KATO track, loco & stock.
> 
> ...


I think you will find that you'll end up having fun anyway. Also, I would not be surprised if it turned into a hobby for you once you get the career going. Best of luck to you.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

r/trains said:


> Unfortunately for me. Non of this is going to be fun. I'm actually building this project to showcase my computer skills. Sort of a working concept. Looks good on my linked in. It's a tall order, but I pull it off and there is big juicy employment offers on the other side. Most people can acquire an admin certification in Linux or Networking. few acquire the engineering cert I'm trying to obtain. Fewer yet can show, at the drop of the hat ALL of the skills required to pull this off at the drop of a hat. I'm talking 1/4 mill a year, leased euro sports car, full stack benefits And profit sharing. All without a bachelors degree. What really matters in my industry is, CAN YOU DO IT? My answer is YES I CAN. let me show you.
> 
> A question. Does stacking everything from the same manufacture help with reliability? Say KATO track, loco & stock.
> 
> ...


Since this sounds like a short term project, I'm not sure why you care about reliability. I would get a fairly cheap inexpensive DC locomotive and just use that until you have all the controls working properly. Since you're developing a control system from scratch, there's bound to be some glitches and bugs that could damage your locomotive, so I'd start with something expendable.

You're also going to need some train position detectors so your computer can know with certainty where your train is. You can use speed * time to determine some location data, but if you want to know how many loops a train has made or to precisely position it for coupling/uncoupling, you're going to need some position sensors. You're also going to need to speed profile your locomotive so you know what speed its traveling vs. a given DC voltage.

Mark


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

What you're attempting is way over my pay grade and I don't know if the Kato M2 and V3 packages come with all the wiring you need, or even if you need wiring, but if you Google Unitrack and click on the Online Catalog there might be some things you can use.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

You should be able to detect train position in various ways. A photocell on the track pointed up (shadow means a train is there), IR LEDS and detectors across the track (available in quantity from online surplus houses), maybe even an induction coil with a neodymium magnet affixed under the cars. Many possible solutions that depend on how 'hardwarey' you want to get as you seem more of a software person.

A big challenge will be n scale. Very tiny and light. Lionel O scale would be a slam dunk for what you are doing since the trains run on AC and you can overlay DC signal atop. Also big and heavy with very dependable remote controllable couplers and switches, and trains heavy enough to detect position by weight (Lionel has them). In short, Lionel will require much less hardware hacking and give you a reliable platform that can run for hours unattended and without failing.

I take it from your choice of n scale that you want this to be small enough to table at a trade show or something. Lionel O27 might work. If not, perhaps something in HO. A HO trolley layout can negotiate tight turns (as tight as N scale curves) and plenty of room for automated switching, building activity, maybe throw in some Aurora HO scale slot cars; could be interesting and impressive.

Completely automated HO or N scale uncoupling and coupling is going to absorb way too much of your R&D time and will never work reliably: your demo could always fail at an inopportune time. Suggest forgetting about automated switching (coupling and uncoupling) unless you do this in O gauge with lionel-type 'toy' trains.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

CTValleyRR said:


> Well, to each his own. From my point of view, letting a computer run your layout is like giving up 2/3 of the fun of having a layout to a machine.
> 
> That said, I do have some serious advice -- setting up a layout is NOT as easy as throwing some Nscale rolling stock on N scale track, and you might want to do some more reading before you go any further with your acquisitions. Pretty much everything in the Beginners, Layout Design, and N scale forums.
> 
> And, if you want to run multiple,independent locomotives simultaneously, you really do want DCC, because the wiring and switches necessary to do that in straight DC is very complex.


I hear ya loud and clear. I'm going to leave the human controls in tact so I can run the train myself for fun.

I looked into DCC. 
Pro's: 
1) The source code is open. Meaning the source is free for developers to work with and design hardware/software that works with DCC equipment.

2) Les wiring than analog controls.

3) More functionality.

Con's:
1) Adding 6 months of programming to my already long timeline of 18 months. This isn't Lego's. I've looked at the open source. That took a bunch(6-10) of high level programmers years to complete. Just adding the layers and troubleshooting will be 6 months, that's in addition to learning the dead art of C++ Which isn't even on my curriculum list. I'm learning the new stuff cell phone app's run on. Python.

2) Equipment is expensive. Doubles my investment in the demo medium.

The alternative? If I run in DC I can use robotic servos(like an RC car) for some things and a breadboard( this thing) for the rest. I can write simple python and bash scripting to make it all work.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

traction fan said:


> r/trains;
> 
> If you intend to switch cars onto/off of sidings, then you are going to need "turnouts" (model railroad term for track switches.) You will need one turnout for each siding, and some interface to let the computer control whether the turnout is set for the siding, or the main track. The electric device that performs this task is called a "switch machine." There are two basic types. the first type is a "twin-coil machine." This consists of two solenoids that pull a short steel rod back and forth. Moving the rod operates a linkage to select the route. The second type is a DC motor which, of course, can be reversed by switching the polarity of the DC current. These motors are "stall motors." When the linkage they operate reaches it's mechanical limit of travel; the motor stays energized and stalls, holding the linkage and turnout in the selected position. I would recommend this type, because of its simplicity. While I know a lot about model railroading, I know very little about computers. I seem to recall that computers often controlled electric hardware devices by providing a ground. I think that would work with a stall motor.
> Now that I've "made your day" by introducing another train control complication,  let me answer your question.
> ...



Thank you for all the information. This post was incredibly helpful. This whole thread and all it's contributors have been very helpful.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

prrfan said:


> I think you will find that you'll end up having fun anyway. Also, I would not be surprised if it turned into a hobby for you once you get the career going. Best of luck to you.


I agree. I've been interested in trains as a hobby for a while. My friend wanted me to automate a hydroponic garden. It's been done. Over done. They make bolt together kits. This is my chance to learn something I'm interested in and gain some new skill at the same time. When you factor in all the backside hosting and front side development it takes to live stream, this incorporates all the skills to call ones self a "full stack engineer". 

Thank you for the well wishes sir.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Since this sounds like a short term project, I'm not sure why you care about reliability. I would get a fairly cheap inexpensive DC locomotive and just use that until you have all the controls working properly. Since you're developing a control system from scratch, there's bound to be some glitches and bugs that could damage your locomotive, so I'd start with something expendable.
> 
> You're also going to need some train position detectors so your computer can know with certainty where your train is. You can use speed * time to determine some location data, but if you want to know how many loops a train has made or to precisely position it for coupling/uncoupling, you're going to need some position sensors. You're also going to need to speed profile your locomotive so you know what speed its traveling vs. a given DC voltage.
> 
> Mark



It's all about "up time". The live feed of the train doing stuff needs to be up 99.9% of the time. I'll have the URL to the live feed available on my Linked-in and Resume. At any time a prospective employer could visit. If the site is down, the feed isn't working or the train is all jacked up and derailed in a pile. What does that say about my skills?:thumbsdown:

train positioning is going to be an issue. I'm still in the process of determining what method I will use.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

Nikola said:


> You should be able to detect train position in various ways. A photocell on the track pointed up (shadow means a train is there), IR LEDS and detectors across the track (available in quantity from online surplus houses), maybe even an induction coil with a neodymium magnet affixed under the cars. Many possible solutions that depend on how 'hardwarey' you want to get as you seem more of a software person.
> 
> A big challenge will be n scale. Very tiny and light. Lionel O scale would be a slam dunk for what you are doing since the trains run on AC and you can overlay DC signal atop. Also big and heavy with very dependable remote controllable couplers and switches, and trains heavy enough to detect position by weight (Lionel has them). In short, Lionel will require much less hardware hacking and give you a reliable platform that can run for hours unattended and without failing.
> 
> ...


It's not going to move anywhere. But I have to live with it. I was looking at how much footage is needed for the larger train sets and I just don't have the room in my two bedroom apt. Now that you mention how easy the operation of the larger trains are. Maybe I should look again.... food for thought.

Thank you for the post. I will take this under consideration.


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## Nikola (Jun 11, 2012)

OP, is this also on Reddit?


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

Nikola said:


> OP, is this also on Reddit?


This project isn't ready for reddit yet.


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## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

r/trains said:


> It's all about "up time". The live feed of the train doing stuff needs to be up 99.9% of the time. I'll have the URL to the live feed available on my Linked-in and Resume. At any time a prospective employer could visit. If the site is down, the feed isn't working or the train is all jacked up and derailed in a pile. What does that say about my skills?:thumbsdown:


I think in that case, your number 1 priority needs to be laying near flawless track. No kinks, ease in and ease out of curves, make sure your joints match up perfectly, get the highest quality turnouts that you can afford, etc. Your main source of problems is going to be mechanical, not electrical.

Mark


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> I think in that case, your number 1 priority needs to be laying near flawless track. No kinks, ease in and ease out of curves, make sure your joints match up perfectly, get the highest quality turnouts that you can afford, etc. Your main source of problems is going to be mechanical, not electrical.
> 
> Mark


Extremely helpful! Thank you for the insight. 
A Question, Mark.
How do you feel about KATO track? 
Which tools would you recommend for laying the track? 

Thank you for your insight.


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

Are you required to use a Linux machine for this project? I'm asking because there is a lot Arduino based "home brew" train projects out there. You can make an entire DCC controller on an Arduino and connect it to a Raspberry Pi. Sometimes it's hard to find all the info in one place, it seems to be shotgunned all over the internet.


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## r/trains (Jul 19, 2017)

sachsr1 said:


> Are you required to use a Linux machine for this project? I'm asking because there is a lot Arduino based "home brew" train projects out there. You can make an entire DCC controller on an Arduino and connect it to a Raspberry Pi. Sometimes it's hard to find all the info in one place, it seems to be shotgunned all over the internet.


Well now. Lets take a look at this on google.

Edit: after a quick google... I could run a setup like this. I'm going to have to give DCC another look.


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## sachsr1 (Mar 3, 2016)

Look up DCC++, and check out http://www.trainelectronics.com/miscellaneous_projects.htm for starters


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Well, you're in way over my head! I work in an IT application, and the last thing I want from ome of my hobbies is something that feels like work.

I wish you luck in your project. However, I would caution you to temper your expectations on employee benefits on "the other side". I am 100% in support of vocational education and professional certifications (I am a Certified Project Manager), but what you describe is for the elite, the best of the best, not the run of the mill employee, and rarely offered to the newly certified, brand new employee until they have a lengthy resume of achievements in the field,

Here's hoping you get what you wish for! Good luck!


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