# Sound deadening a 'hard' room



## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I have a problem with reverberation in the room I built for my layout.
I added a 'indoor/outdoor' carpet to the lower half of all the walls below the table, but that did little. I added a 'runner' carpet down the middle of the floor not just for noise but to isolate my feet from the cold concrete floor, but that didn't do anything more.

I'm think of finding a light blue carpet for the walls above the table since those walls are now painted light blue to simulate the sky, but I don't know if that will be enough.

The ceiling is not a typical 'suspended ceiling' as I didn't have the additional clearance due to furnace ducts and didn't want to give up any more height. I assume the best location would be the walls vs the ceiling anyway to be the most effective.

Other than carpet I also thought about cork rolls, but never had any experience with anything like that. I also know there are 'acoustical' material specifically designed for this purpose, but aesthetics are a issue. I don't want it to look like a recording studio. 

Ideas?? (pics don't show the carpet on the floor);


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

What's the source of the "reverberation"? The walls / wallboard itself, the layout deck, something else???

There's a few fundamental ways to knock down noise / vibration / reverberation ...

1. Stiffen things where possible ... make sure wallboard is adequately fastened (with screws, not nails) to studs. Are there wood studs, as opposed to metal studs? Wood would be better from sound standpoint. Make sure the layout deck is not transmitting vibration to the subframe. Two schools of thought here: 1. fasten it down tightly, or 2. allow the thing to "float" on a foam cushion, with no fasteners.

2. Add mass (weight) ... under the layout deck; rolls of sound material (often thin, lead-like sheets) on the walls; etc. 

3. Try to change the natural harmonic frequency of what's causing the vibration. Ultimately, that will get you back to 1 and 2, above.

Maybe that will help just a bit ...

TJ


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

1. No 'wallboard' (that's a dirty word with me), walls are 5/8" plywood, ceiling pieces are 1/4" Eucaboard,
2. The house could be supported with the walls I built,
3. The 'reverb' is from just talking *inside* the room, not from the outside. 

I can't even carry on a conversation without talking in a very low voice.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Same comments, mostly ...

Add mass to the room ... boxes of stuff under the table. Chairs. Etc. You'll be surprised how much stuff in the room changes the harmonics of sound.

Think about walking into any empty room with hardwood floors ... an "echo chamber", likely. Now, think of that same room with dressers, a bed, area rug, etc. Much different acoustics.

What are your walls, if not wallboard? Plywood???

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

tjcruiser said:


> Same comments, mostly ...
> 
> Add mass to the room ... boxes of stuff under the table. Chairs. Etc. You'll be surprised how much stuff in the room changes the harmonics of sound.
> 
> ...


I think the plywood walls are a little bit of the problem, they bounce the sound around.
Plus the room is empty.
Like TJ says, once you add stuff to the room it should absorb some of it.

What are you planning for the walls? A backdrop? Some pictures?

Do you know that they make a sound proofing paint?
I don't know how good of a job it does.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Bruce,

Buy more train stuff - a lot more, and put it in the room. That will deaden the room. How's that for a rationalization?


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> Buy more train stuff - a lot more, and put it in the room.


Ok, let me give you my Paypal account number to send money. 


> I think the plywood walls are a little bit of the problem, they bounce the sound around.
> Plus the room is empty.


Yes, the room is empty. I also realize the area between the table, ceiling and wall is a _*huge*_ problem. Probably the number 1 problem.
I do have two padded 'bar' chairs that will go here, but there isn't any more room for anything else.


> What are you planning for the walls? A backdrop? Some pictures?


I have a NYC dispatcher "Train sheet" from 1966 that is 18" x 6' I plan on mounting on the wall with a matt Plexiglas sheet over it.

I don't want to wait until I lay track to treat the problem due to not having the ability to place anything on the wall where the solution is. *I have to do it now.*
I started looking at 'professional solutions' and they are expensive. I did find this to be the closest practical solution, but still expensive;
http://www.asistorefront.com/p-247-echo-eliminator.aspx
http://www.audimutesoundproofing.com/acoustical-panels.aspx


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with your room!! I agree an empty room will reverb, nothing you can do about that. Once you fill it with the layout and other items especially under table it will disappear for sure!!! I wouldn't waste any money or time putting sound deadeners around the room!!!

Pat


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

You wouldn't say that if you were here. 

Just an example, I have a phone in the room and I tried to carry on a conversation but couldn't. The 'reverb' was so bad, I had to leave the room and talk out in the unfinished basement. The area opposite this room is slightly larger (no ceiling or outside walls) and there is very little, if any 'reverb'.

I don't plan on 'storing' anything under the table. Besides, how/why would that help, no one is sitting there. Adding those rugs on the lower walls did little. I'm sure a layout with scenery will help, but surely not enough.


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

What about using 2x4 ceiling tiles on the walls? They come in a variety textures now. Some actually look pretty good.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I have thought about that, but since the standing position would be directly under that area, sound projects outward towards the wall, not the center ceiling area where I would try to place them.
Placing them above the table I don't think would look good which is why I didn't want to go with a suspended ceiling in the first place also due to lack of enough headway clearance.

Here is a better shot of the ceiling before the table was constructed. Those carpets really didn't do much, neither did the runner on the floor (not shown).


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

*Sound Deadening in a Room*

Working as Pro in the A/V industry for the past 16 years; the easiest way to deaden a room, sound quality wise is to use Acoustic Sound material to absorb some of the sound. 

If you have a music store near you (Sam Ash, etc.) they do sell acoustic "Egg Crate" type material that you can use to put up on the walls that will absorb the sound.

The material can range anywhere from 1" to thicker, depending on what works best for your room. You don't need a lot of it, but just a few pieces placed strategically on each of the walls of your room will make a surprising difference.

http://www.samash.com/p/Auralex_Wedgies Wedge Foam 12 x 12 x 2_-49983753

I have used these above to help with the sound in my recording room. I use them surrounding my microphone to absorb additional sound.

I would say that if you buy a few of these (they are only $3.99 a piece), and put them around the room, it should help with your noise issue.

With the shape of the room, these acoustic panels may work good on the far walls where they are on the angles. Even having some mounted on the ceiling every few feet, will help with the sound issues.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

But, it makes it look like a recording studio. 
I was trying to avoid this. If those were available in colors to come close to match the wall (like my links above), it might not be as bad.

I did try placing pieces of seat cushion foam (from a sofa that was re-cushioned) on the walls above the table to try out, but I didn't notice any difference. I do know this is different material (more denser) than what you are talking about.


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

videobruce said:


> But, it makes it look like a recording studio.
> I was trying to avoid this. If those were available in colors to come close to match the wall (like my links above), it might not be as bad.


Not necessarily. You could potentially paint them the same color as the room and no one would ever know the difference. 

There is also material that is in a spray can, which is a little more expensive.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> You could potentially paint them the same color as the room


I'm surprised you said that since I thought that defeats the effectiveness of the material by sealing in the 'pores' or 'cells' of the foam.


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

*Sound Deadening in a Room*



videobruce said:


> I'm surprised you said that since I thought that defeats the effectiveness of the material by sealing in the 'pores' or 'cells' of the foam.


Okay...painting was not the correct term to use, but if you dye the material, it shouldn't lose it's reflective capabilities.

There are also larger tiles that look like these, that have Velcro capabilities as well. 

These are a grey color and may actually look good on your walls on the corners, not necessarily making it look like a recording studio per se.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CSPS2/


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Ok, you have my interest, how would one "dye" them? With exactly what and how??


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

videobruce said:


> Ok, you have my interest, how would one "dye" them? With exactly what and how??


You could use Rit-Dye... sold at Craft Stores. I think Wally World sells it too.

http://www.ritdye.com/

Here is some info about Dyeing material versus painting when it comes to acoustic material:

You CAN paint fabric with dyes like RIT or Procion, using brushes, airbrushes, or even rollers. Because it is a dye, it doesn't effect the absorptive or flexibility properties of the fabric.

Painting on fabrick is a LOT different than the sort of "faux finishing" that you do on walls or furniture though. It tends to be VERY fast-drying, not very "workable", and layering colors usually creates more of a mess than a "special effect". Some dyes even change color slightly when you "fix" them, depending on the fabric. Read up on the techniques, and do a LOT of experiments on small swatches, all the way through, to "fixing", before you attempt painting a big piece, because it's ENTIRELY different than using "paint".

The problem with this method of dying is getting the dye to "fix" permanently to the fabric. In "batch dying", you bring th edye to a boil, and immerse the fabric. But for painting dye onto fabric, you need to use another method of heat fixing. The most common method is to steam-fix the dye, using some sort of steaming setup. Amateur silk painters who do small objects like scarves or blouses use a BIG kettle with a steamer basket. For something like a piece of fabric large enough to cover an acoustic panel, though, you might have to think even bigger--like a garbage can with a custom-made chicken wire steamer basket and a propane crab-pot burner.

Natural fabrics like cotton, linen, silk, and hemp are relatively easy to dye this way. Synthetics are impossible to permanently dye this way. Most cheap burlap is blended fabric--a mixture of natural and synthetic fibers, so check the fiber content of the fabric you'r egoing to buy if you plan on dying it yourself...


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

All of that seems to make that idea out of the question.
You can't 'brush' or spray it on, I assume because it won't 'soak' in far enough?


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

Go into the linen closet get out some bed sheets and drape them over the edge of table so they touch the ground!! Then see what it's like!!!
obviously this is just a test but I reckon you will see a difference and if you do it might be that you will need table skirts!!!

Pat


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Find a LOT of the fiber egg cartons, tack them up all over the walls and ceiling. It'll really deaden the sound.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Prospect193; I'll try that for the heck of it.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

videobruce,
I've been watching your build from the very beginning.
Your not going to like my observations, I do have a little experience with remodels, been doing it for over 15 years!
You have created a lot of your problems.
One your ceiling build is just a giant drum and sound amplifier.
With the way you cutout around the light sockets it acts as a giant sound enclosure, I bet you have no insulation above the 1/4 of ceiling material. Why didn't you put extension boxes and seal the ceiling space? Would also be a lot safer too! 
What did you put behind your 5/8 plywood walls? Were they installed over furring strips? Jack's suggestion to put ceiling tiles on the walls is the best suggestion so far, you could also glue it to the ceiling too! Second would be putting a skirt on the bottom of the layout to help, but not a whole lot, because you've already installed carpet on the walls. 
As far as putting foam on the walls...Anyone remember a night club in Rhode Island, and a Band Great White... Foam not a good answer even without the pyrotechnics!


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> One your ceiling build is just a giant drum and sound amplifier.
> With the way you cutout around the light sockets it acts as a giant sound enclosure,


Because of the limited ceiling height I didn't want to make it any worse by lowering it more than I had to. What you see is Eucaboard, cut to fit, attached to the hot & cold air returns (the lowest portions) and suspended from joists by 2x4 blocks of wood between the two parallel runs down the center of the room.


> Why didn't you put extension boxes and seal the ceiling space?


Simple; cost and clearance.
The openings around the CF lamps are for heat reasons and to raise the lamp up as high as possible. I didn't want it hanging down with the fixture exposed due to lack of ceiling height as I mentioned. Yes, it isn't code, _*but it is safe*_. Really just a variation of recessed lighting without the overpriced fancy can.


> What did you put behind your 5/8 plywood walls?


Nothing. Open basement or foundation wall.


> As far as putting foam on the walls...Anyone remember a night club in Rhode Island, and a Band Great White... Foam not a good answer even without the pyrotechnics!


I only mentioned the foam as it was done as a test.


> I bet you have no insulation above the 1/4 of ceiling material.


I saw no need to. 75% of the heat loss is the visible stone foundation (now painted). The area above the ceiling is warm anyway from the furnaces so the temperature differentiation is very little. Besides, that is only a possible issue 4 1/2 months out of the year.

Now for the points you brought up regarding insulation, or lack of, how would insulation on the walls help? The problem isn't blocking sound from the outside, but absorbing it from the inside. 50% of the walls are covered with carpet so I can't see any improvement there. The upper portion that is not, The only two areas in the ceiling I could put insulation would be down the center and the outside past that cold air return towards the outer wall. Both comprise 50% of the ceiling area. Other than a small benefit of retaining some heat from the single furnace vent, why would that help the 'reverb' issue?

I admit there were a couple of areas that I didn't figure on and would do differently, but most of this was thought out as before and as I constructed it. Unfortunately, audio was not on the list. That never even occurred to me.

And if I didn't already say it, the house is 95 years old, not some 'throw it together in 2 week' construction wonder with no character (in spite of what they cost now to build).


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Since you took the time to reply with your observations, here are a couple of pics of before and during for a little background.
I had two choices (actually three that I didn't think of until recently) where the room would go. I choose this since it was the driest and no plumbing overhead and the least windows with one that opened. The other half (off to the left) had three windows, one heating duct off to the side, but had plumbing at one end of the area. I wasn't going to cover up pipes and didn't want to deal with an additional window. The only plus was more open ceiling area that I might of just done a suspended ceiling even though I don't like them. Of course you will say that probably would of solved most of the 'reverb' problems.

Simple question; would drywall of been less reflective that plywood? Does it have more absorption qualities?


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

Will you be hanging lights over table or using existing lighting?? If you intend to hang lights such as Fluro banks you might want to consider boxing them in by using what you might think of as a ceiling skirting board hanging down from the ceiling. This will capture sound up in the ceiling and dissipate it. If I don't make sense I will draw something for you!!! One thing you have to keep in mind is this room is basically empty except for the table it is bound to echo badly without anything else in there!!! To be honest I think once a layout is built and a skirt is around table you will find it diminish considerably!!!

Thanks
Pat


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

What exactly is the ceiling height? If those are full sheets of 4x8 ply placed horizontaly I'm guessing 7 foot. Why no insulation behind the ply? It deadens, or more accurately aborbs, sound. And insulation is cheap. Why 5/8 ply instead of drywall? If the ply "fell off the truck" I can see using it but 5/8 ply isn't cheap.
Sheetrocking my woodworking area, with R-30 insulation behind it, made a unbelivable difference in sound transmission.
I don't mess with electrical stuff but you say your lights are "safe" What's a electrician or building inspector say?
What was your solution to stop water infiltration?


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

In the unfinished basement there is no doubt lots of things to bounce the sound waves in odd directions!!! In a room with four walls it simply keeps bouncing around the room with nothing to absorb the sound waves.


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

Did you try out the bed sheet suggestion!!

Pat


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> Will you be hanging lights over table or using existing lighting??


As shown. The lights above the layout are dimable by design, though only 1/2 brightness (I measured). The other two between the windows are above a not yet built work table/shelve.


> I think once a layout is built and a skirt is around table you will find it diminish considerably!!


I'm sure it will make a difference, but I can't imagine it will be even close to enough without some other help.


> Did you try out the bed sheet suggestion!!


Not yet, I was sleeping on it.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> What exactly is the ceiling height? If those are full sheets of 4x8 ply placed horizontaly I'm guessing 7 foot. Why no insulation behind the ply? It deadens, or more accurately aborbs, sound. And insulation is cheap. Why 5/8 ply instead of drywall? If the ply "fell off the truck" I can see using it but 5/8 ply isn't cheap.


The lowest point is 76", but that is in the corner. The 2nd lowest where one would/could hit their head is 77". Why insulate _*behind*_ the plywood? How id that going to stop sound from bouncing around *inside* the room? There is no issue with _*outside*_ sound.


> Sheetrocking my woodworking area, with R-30 insulation behind it, made a unbelivable difference in sound *transmission*.


But, this *isn't* a "transmission" problem.
I beleive you don't understand this is a *interior echo* issue, not a _*outside sound ingress*_ issue. I need to deaden the room, not stop sounds from the basement (which there are practically none) from entering.

Lastly, I hate drywall! Cheap chalk & paper walls are worthless AFAIC. Give me lath & plaster anytime. yes it was more expensive, but I wanted something I could secure something too, something I can't put my fist (at least partly) or hammer through.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

Spray/paint the walls with a "sound deadening spray paint". Do a search for the words in the quote marks. 

B


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Thanks, but according to this, it isn't worth it;
http://www.audimutesoundproofing.com/soundproof-paint-sound-proofing-paint.aspx


> - First, soundproof paint does not make a significant difference. To put it in perspective,
> humans perceive a loss of 10 decibels to be 50% quieter. sound deadening paint companies have
> yet to make a claim as great as this, despite the fact that most soundproofing products guarantee
> even better results.
> ...


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

You obviously don't know what to do because you're the one who asked how to solve your problem. Please don't tell me what I don't understand as you don't know me or my background. I'm only throwing out suggestions which have worked in the past in similar situations. But it appears you know best.
Not to worry as this is the last you'll hear from me.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Heaven forbid if I question anyone. :thumbsdown:

That's exactly it, I don't know who you are. It's called agreeing to disagree. Happens all the time.


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## inxy (Dec 10, 2010)

You may not like drywall but it is a cheap way to deaden sound - softer than plywood therefore less reflection of sound. Drywall is cheap. If you want to spend mucho bucks there are many ways to do this and have it look pretty.

B


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

Unfortunately a little late for drywall. 
I have contacted a supplier of acoustical materials with details and waiting to hear what he has to say. I did ask about drywall vs plywood and he did say it would of helped things, but probably not enough.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

What you have created (unintentionally) with the plywood is an acoustic membrane. Any harmonics or vibration are affected by the material, how it's fastened to substructure, and what's happening both in front of (room) as well as behind the plywood itself.

Is there any way you can subdivide the unsupported panel size of the plywood? I.e., at this point, can you add a mid-panel cleat or compression support behind the plywood? Or, would you consider screwing some cleats to the front of the plywood?

I know you keep saying that the noise / echo you're hearing is "inside the room", and not affected by the walls themselves, but I disagree with you there.

I'll reiterate my earlier comments:

Add mass (stuff) in the room (boxes under table, etc.)

Change the harmonics / natural frequency of what you have ... including the unsupported panel size of the existing plywood.

TJ


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

tjcruiser said:


> What you have created (unintentionally) with the plywood is an acoustic membrane. Any harmonics or vibration are affected by the material, how it's fastened to substructure, and what's happening both in front of (room) as well as behind the plywood itself.
> 
> Is there any way you can subdivide the unsupported panel size of the plywood? I.e., at this point, can you add a mid-panel cleat or compression support behind the plywood? Or, would you consider screwing some cleats to the front of the plywood?
> 
> ...


I agree with TJ's comments, can't hurt to move some stuff in there to test it!!!


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

> Is there any way you can subdivide the unsupported panel size of the plywood? I.e., at this point, can you add a mid-panel cleat or compression support behind the plywood? Or, would you consider screwing some cleats to the front of the plywood?


You kind of lost me here. I only use screws, not nails; plywood to studs, studs to headers & footers. No glue.
I did pick up a half a dozen 2x2' ceiling tiles to try. I placed them around the table, but it didn't seem to make any real difference. They were $2.30 each, but I will return them since I have no other use.
I'm waiting to hear from a acoustical material supplier on what he suggests.


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## Prospect193 (Nov 30, 2011)

videobruce said:


> You kind of lost me here. I only use screws, not nails; plywood to studs, studs to headers & footers. No glue.
> I did pick up a half a dozen 2x2' ceiling tiles to try. I placed them around the table, but it didn't seem to make any real difference. They were $2.30 each, but I will return them since I have no other use.
> I'm waiting to hear from a acoustical material supplier on what he suggests.



Before you go wasting money try putting some stuff in the room and put a skirt up preferably double up the sheets for some thickness!!!!


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I brought in the 1/2" foamboards and leaned them up against the table. I also brought in the three spare foam seat cushions, both made a difference, but I would hardly be using them that way. I also brought in the two 'bar' chairs I bought for the room, but only the seat cushion is padded.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Bruce, 

In my comments above, I was explaining that the plywood wall panels are acting like a membrane. Let's say that the "unsupported panel" between studs is 16" x 36" or something like that. Accordingly, the natural frequency (vibration characteristics) of that panel is contignent on that size. To change the natural frequency (and resulting vibration characteristics of the plywood), you can: add mass to its surface; add energy absorbing material like foam; or change the size of the unsupported panel. It's that last point that I was alluding to. Can you add an extra horizontal stud behind the panel to change the unsupported size to say 16" x 18"? Or even just wedge a dowel behind the panel at its midpoint (one end touching back of ply, other end touching the concrete wall)? Either of these will modify the natural frequency, and perhaps help your acoustics significantly.

I don't know whether you still have access to the back of the ply panels at this point, though.

TJ


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

All the walls are open, only plywood on one side. The half wall and the far short wall are 12" from the stone foundation. The long wall has my 'wood stock' in front of most of it.

Each panel portion between studs is vibrating due to sound waves hitting it and contributing to the problem? I can't imaging that would make that much difference over the outright reflection of the waves themselves around the room. I would understand that could be a problem with music, bass drums for example, but voices?

I did find this, not to expensive, partial solution (if I can find some dense unfaced 2" fiberglass board insulation locally);
http://acousticsfreq.com/blog/?p=62


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

The Roxul material sells for $47 for eight 2' x 4' (23" on center is the actual spec) pieces in a bundle. $6 per piece plus fabric & wood. This seems to be the best cost effective solution if I can find matching fabric material.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I went to a acoustical supplier with the following questions based on replies here and elsewhere. Below is what was said, his replies in bold;


> On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:35:53 -0500, Mike Mohs <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> A. How much a difference would drywall of made as far as the echo problem?
> *It would only make about a 10% improvement as you still would have all reflective surfaces.*
> ...


The cost per panel ($16 + shipping) isn't far off what it would cost to purchase a bundle (eight) 2'x4' Roxul RTH80 mineral wool fiber insulation panels plus the cloth to wrap the material if I make it myself.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I was only half joking about the egg cartons, that kind of wall treatment really does deaden sound reflections more than you can possibly imagine. There are commercial products with a very similar look for that very purpose.


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## videobruce (Jun 15, 2011)

I just didn't want the "sound studio" look.
He is going to send me some samples. There are two shades of blue that might work though if a closer match with cloth could be found, that might be the ticket. I really would like them to disappear into the background.

I have found that you can have photos, etc. printed on the cloth that covers the panels to make them look like pictures hanging on the wall. Fine for a media room etc., but surely not for here. I hate to see the price.


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