# Transponding, Blocks, Power Questions/Confusion



## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

Hey, Y'all,

Attached are my SCARM and TrainController layout schematics. There is still a lot to do, such as creating blocks, etc. I have questions that I think will affect what is a block or not and where to wire and what hardware I should use...let me provide a bit more insight to my quandry(ies). I have laid out a bunch in my Introduction posting so starting there may be helpful.

My general philosophy is that I want a challenge but not an impossible one. Certain areas are beyond my knowledge base and my desire to learn it all or what I see as fun. There is enough here to keep me busy, learning and challenged.

A BIG shout out to Rich Buchanan at Model Scenery and Structure for the layout design. He is also helping me with other parts of this project. My questions here are about me understanding what I will be doing from his input. 

- Green level is the lower level and is at 0. It meets Blue at the left crossover switch at level 3.

- Blue is the mid level and moves from 3 (left crossover with Green) to 7 (right crossover with Yellow).

- Yellow is the upper level and is at 7. It meets Blue at the right crossover switch at level 7.

Questions

- Blocks: It seems that switches should not be included in blocks. I have two places (Green and Yellow) where I have three switches in a row. Is this generally the consensus? Do I not worry about "seeing" trains in those sections? I am using TrainController to manage the trains.

- Wiring 1: I am using Digitrax hardware and Kato Unitrack. I plan to use BXP88's vs BDL168's/RX4's. Comparative simplicity of wiring is my rationale. Will the 88's take care of power to the track/blocks? Which leads me to...

- Wiring 2: Kato uses 24-818, terminal rail joiner leads. Do I need these in addition to the 88's or do the 88's replace these? If I need both then it seems I need to have them both in each block, yes? And if blocks do not include switches then do I need the 24-818's in the switch sections? Which leads me to...

- Wiring 3: Switches. If there is a single switch do I just include them in a block/power section or do they have their own power lead? I can see that where there are two or more switches connected together, maybe...but where there is a solo switch, what then? I will be using DS64's for the switches. Do they take care of what I am asking here or are they in addition to?

A lot of ask here. I have learned loads the past months and I see there is more to come, exciting and fun. I have not been able to find much in these areas on train sites, You Tube or other...and I have searched! Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, y'all!

Know you can!

John


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You got trapped in moderation, I set you free.


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## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

:thumbsup: LOL...love the dry wit...thanks for that!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Let me start by saying that I'm not the worlds greatest DCC or wiring guru.

That said, you have me thoroughly confused here. Maybe some of my more knowledgeable comrades will get it right off.

It seems to me, though that you are confusing the power feeds with the occupancy detector. You would still need power feeds routed through the occupancy detectors (it sounds like up to 8 blocks -- each with it's own feeders -- can be run from one BXP-88).

Also, for model railroading (in contrast to the prototype), we typically use the term "switch" to refer to the things that route or control electricity, and "turnout" to refer to the devices that shift trains from track to track. It sounds like you mean "turnout" in your narration above. Correct?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

My old eyes have difficulty following the twists and
turns of your drawings. I see two or three double
crossovers. These can be tricky to wire as they
often result in reverse loops. I would suggest that
you draw your layout using Red for the right and Black for the
left rails. If you find a Red touching a black when points
are thrown in these crossovers you have a short circuit
unless isolated sections are set up.

Normally turnouts are included in blocks such as a yard
or a series of industrial spurs that you have. However,
if you are planning auto operation using occupancy
detection other rules may apply.

Don


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

- Blocks: It seems that switches should not be included in blocks. I have two places (Green and Yellow) where I have three switches in a row. Is this generally the consensus? Do I not worry about "seeing" trains in those sections? I am using TrainController to manage the trains.

In my opinion, the turnouts should be left out of the blocks with TrainController. I use individual occupancy detection in turnouts and crossings on my layouts with TCG. TC does not have to have those detected to function but may add reliability in the overall detection scheme.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

Wiring 1: I am using Digitrax hardware and Kato Unitrack. I plan to use BXP88's vs BDL168's/RX4's. Comparative simplicity of wiring is my rationale. Will the 88's take care of power to the track/blocks? Which leads me to...

If you do not want transponding, the BDL168 is a better cost effective choice particularly if you employ turnout detection. The BXP88 can feed rail power to the blocks, turnouts, and crossings. If you do not want detection with the turnouts and crossings, then you could use a wiring bus to feed rail power to them.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

Wiring 2: Kato uses 24-818, terminal rail joiner leads. Do I need these in addition to the 88's or do the 88's replace these? If I need both then it seems I need to have them both in each block, yes? And if blocks do not include switches then do I need the 24-818's in the switch sections? Which leads me to...

Yes, you need both. Those leads will connect the track to the BXP88. You will have to get power to the turnout rails either as part of a block or with separate wiring as the blocks are.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

Wiring 3: Switches. If there is a single switch do I just include them in a block/power section or do they have their own power lead? I can see that where there are two or more switches connected together, maybe...but where there is a solo switch, what then? I will be using DS64's for the switches. Do they take care of what I am asking here or are they in addition to?

It can be done either way. The DS64 runs the turnout solenoid or motor. The turnout rail power has to be provided by another means.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

You should look through this entire thread before considering automation. Before you buy or build anything, everything should be well thought out and planned.


https://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=14852


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## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

It was really cool coming home today to find all the replies to my post. I really appreciate the input!! I know I posted a lot and my attachments are confusing. I am posting the three levels separately in hopes that it helps clear things up a bit.


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## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

CTValleyRR: It is highly likely I am confused! Your comment and JerryH have helped clear up the leads vs occupancy detector question. BXP88 can do both but I still need the 24-818's for leads. And thank you for the switch vs turnout definitions! I still am and continue to be open to learning...

DonR: Good idea on the black/red mapping. I believe this will be needed to make sure my wiring stays polarized correctly...

JerryH: Your posts/thread you attached is one I have already gone through in total! Really like it and will go through it again a few more times. And I agree with the statement that "...everything should be well thought out and planned." As gunrunnerjohn wrote, I am "...trapped in moderation."! And I am limiting expenses until I feel good about moving forward...

Your post re turnouts not in blocks and that they have their own occupancy detection makes sense. You helped greatly with the power vs occupancy detection that CTValleyRR pointed out. The 24-818's are the leads that go to the BXP88's which do the power and detection. And yes, I do want transponding so the BXP88 will be my direction. Your idea on not using them everywhere also makes sense re expenses.

Two follow up questions: What is TCG? And would you know if TC Bronze supports transponding or not? I have not had the time to search the Freiwald site for that yet.

Thanks again y'all!!


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

TCG=TrainController Gold version. TCB was too limited in flexibility to suit me. Silver would have been suitable but I didn't know what I might need in the future so I opted for Gold. Transponding is used when tracking trains by ID. Tracking by occupancy is the prefered method. Bronze may do either. I don't know so just compare the features 
of each. In my case signaling options ruled out Bronze for me. Transponding is difficult to make work reliably. Transponding provides redundancy when using occupancy tracking. In retrospect, I should have saved my money and not utilized transponding.


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## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

Very helpful...thank you! Will wait on TCS or TCG until I am up an running to see what it is I need/want. Cheers!


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

If you are going to use the BXP88 I would use them everywhere.

Turnouts are not to made part of TC Blocks. 

As to track power you can do as Jerry and I have down and provide power/detection to each turnout (or turnout group) with their own section of a BXP88.

OR you can feed all turnouts (and turnout groups) via one section of a BXP88.

You might be able to feed power to turnouts directly from the DCC bus BUT if the BXP88 uses diodes for detection then you will NOT want to do that.

Frederick


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

So is there some sort of problem using a BXP88 to supply power to a turnout that controls the power to the frog thru contacts on the switch machine? I don't see how that could be a problem. If you using a circuit that detects a short and switches the frog then I can see problems.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

Lemonhawk said:


> So is there some sort of problem using a BXP88 to supply power to a turnout that controls the power to the frog thru contacts on the switch machine? I don't see how that could be a problem. If you using a circuit that detects a short and switches the frog then I can see problems.


Hi,

None that I know of. Did someone suggest there was?

Frederick


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## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

If you are recommending against transponding does that mean you would go BDL168 vs the BXP88? I would need the PM42 for power then wouldn't I? Hmm...the thinking and the planning...


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

jwg766 said:


> If you are recommending against transponding does that mean you would go BDL168 vs the BXP88? I would need the PM42 for power then wouldn't I? Hmm...the thinking and the planning...


Digitrax's original attempt at providing transponding hardware was not very good.

The BXP88 seems much better. I have not tried it but did test something similar from another company.

I looked at Digitrax's original approach and decided it was not going to be worth the effort.

These new devices are pretty much as easy to install as non-transponding occupancy detectors.

If I was starting over I would try the new transponding hardware.

Frederick


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

jwg766 and JerryH - Or anybody else that knows the answer.

I am very close to purchasing the TrainController software. I will probably go with the Bronze version. My question is: Does the user manual come with the software or is it sold separately? 

Thanks in advance.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

You can purchase a manual or download it for free.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

SantaFeJim said:


> jwg766 and JerryH - Or anybody else that knows the answer.
> 
> I am very close to purchasing the TrainController software. I will probably go with the Bronze version. My question is: Does the user manual come with the software or is it sold separately?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


If you can manage it purchase SILVER. BRONZE is very limited and doesn't really do Train Controller justice.

The manual can be downloaded from the Train Controller site:

http://www.freiwald.com/pages/download.htm

Frederick


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## jwg766 (Jul 12, 2018)

You can actually download the user manual without any purchase. Same for the Silver/Gold manual, a combined set. I would reco that you download the software as well. You get a decent amount of time to play with it prior to purchase and there is a pretty good learning curve. Same goes for JMRI. I did find TC was more to my liking.


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

JerryH, fcwilt and jwg766,


Thanks to all three for the quick response. I was aware that I could D/L the user guide. But I am old school and prefer to have a hard copy that I can browse and make notes in the margin. I think I could handle the silver version, but looking at the side-by-side comparison chart I really don’t seen any functions in the silver version that I need that are not in the bronze. 

I will have a better feel and make my final decision after the 30 day free trial.

I really don’t think that my layout is as complicated as jwg766 and his was drawn using the bronze.

Thanks again. PS JerryH I LOVE your expanded Granite Gorge. Seeing it run under TrainController really caught my attention and got me jacked.

Looking forward to your next video.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

SantaFeJim said:


> JerryH, fcwilt and jwg766,
> I think I could handle the silver version, but looking at the side-by-side comparison chart I really don’t seen any functions in the silver version that I need that are not in the bronze.


I have been using Train Controller for several years.

While at a glance SILVER may not seem to offer much more in practice it really does.

I may be out of line here but I would strongly suggest you get SILVER.

Just one reason. SILVER offers adjustable BRAKE and STOP markers with specific distance settings.

BRONZE just offers a BRAKE/STOP marker pair for a unit-less length slider.

There are many more reasons.

You don't know me from Adam but trust me on this.

And I have no economic connection to the company at all.

Frederick


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Frederick,

You make an excellent point. The adjustable BRAKE and STOP are very desirable features. Now you have me leaning heavily toward the Silver addition.

I would still like to be able to purchase a hard copy of the Silver/Gold users guide. I just spent 20 minutes searching their website and can not find any link to order the guide. What am I missing? 

Help.

Jim


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

SantaFeJim said:


> Frederick,
> 
> I would still like to be able to purchase a hard copy of the Silver/Gold users guide. I just spent 20 minutes searching their website and can not find any link to order the guide. What am I missing?
> 
> Jim


I cannot find it either.

However you can usually take a PDF file to a local UPS store (or something similar) and they can print and bind it for you.

Frederick


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## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Frederick,

I guessing UPS is out of the picture. I went to their on-line site, entered the info and the bottom line was...

418 Pages
printed on two sides
full color
28LB Laser
Wire bind
Black Vinyl Cover

Estimated Price: 
*$167.76*

I will see if I can connect with the guys Freiwald via email and get a price tomorrow.

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

BTW you did not say if you got a User Guide when you ordered the software.


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## fcwilt (Sep 27, 2013)

SantaFeJim said:


> Frederick,
> 
> 418 Pages....
> 
> BTW you did not say if you got a User Guide when you ordered the software.


I would think that the 418 pages in the PDF file would be 209 physical pages when printed on both sides.

Using that it would be appx $90 for color but only appx $22 for B&W.

Anyway yes I have the original printed manual that I got with v7.

I don't recall getting a new manual with the updates from v7 to v8 and v8 to v9.

Frederick


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