# Wiring for 1960 Lionel Set



## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Hello from a newbie with a newbie question.

I was recently given a 50 year old Lionel starter set by a retired friend who said it was working. Before I can check it out, I need new wires to connect the transformer to the track. The friend said to be careful about finding the correct wire gauge or the locomotive motor could be damaged. I figure it will be easier to get "modern" wire at a hardware store than trying to track down vintage stock.

The set includes a 1015 45-Watt transformer and a CTC lockon. I remember playing with my dad's set as a kid that was comparable vintage, and I'm guessing it used 16 or 18 gauge wires. Is that what I should get?

Thanks! I'm hoping this modest set will be the start of a new O-gauge empire!


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

I think you'd be fine with 16 gauge wire for a small, simple layout setup with this 1015 transformer. Nothing wrong with "modern" wire ... speaker wire of proper gauge, etc.

I'd make sure you give the loco motor a good cleaning and lube before running it. GooGone and Q-tips work well to remove old grease gunk. Several guys (myself included) use 5W-20 or 5W-30 synthetic motor oil for new lube ... if it rotates or moves, give it a tiny drop of the oil ... wheel bearings, gears, armature bearings, etc.

Clean the top of the track with a ScotchBrite pad. Make sure the track-to-track pin connectors are snug.

Have fun!

TJ


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Welcome to the site.


You are talking from the transformer to the track not the transformer to the wall right? If so even 14 gauge will work. On a larger layout I prefer 14.

I don't think you can hurt the engine regardless of what gauge you use.
If you use too light of a gauge it just won't provide the power you need to run the train. Plus it will heat up if it is a real light gauge.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

How about some pictures of the old train? 
What did you get?
You have a set? Did you get the boxes too with a master box?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Gosh, for a simple one locomotive setup with a 45 watt transformer, almost any wire you can find will work fine! Lionel used to supply #22 wire with those really old sets, so I can't imagine you need something nearly as heavy as 14-ga wire, that's rated for 15 amps!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Gosh, for a simple one locomotive setup with a 45 watt transformer, almost any wire you can find will work fine! Lionel used to supply #22 wire with those really old sets, so I can't imagine you need something nearly as heavy as 14-ga wire, that's rated for 15 amps!



Not for a small layout. 
I was talking for a large layout.

But if he had a roll of 14 laying around there is nothing wrong with using it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Nope, my point is almost any wire you have around is good for a 45 watt transformer running one train.  Big is usually better for wiring, but it's also more expensive and harder to deal with.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Nope, my point is almost any wire you have around is good for a 45 watt transformer running one train.  Big is usually better for wiring, but it's also more expensive and harder to deal with.


My question was,
He was told he could hurt the motor if he used the wrong kind.

I don't think that is true, what do you think?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Total baloney, I can't imagine how that could hurt the motor. The worst thing that happens is you use #30 wire and the wire gets hot.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Total baloney, I can't imagine how that could hurt the motor. The worst thing that happens is you use #30 wire and the wire gets hot.


That is what I thought, you could burn down the house before you wreck the engine.:laugh:


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the responses! In retrospect, the warning from the previous owner was about getting the right gauge of wire because too small could get really hot. It was my assumption that the heat was a danger to the motor, but I don't think he ever said that.

As for some of the other questions...

I haven't taken any pictures of the set but will when I get the chance. It's a pretty low-end set. My biggest disappointment was the locomotive has a plastic shell. I didn't think Lionel would have been making plastic locos in 1960. It's a model 246 and definitely a lightweight compared to the metal locos I remember playing with in my dad's and grandfather's collections. The set has a few original boxes but they are in pretty poor shape.

The set has plenty of O-27 track but not much in the way of cars. It came with a beat-up 6650 IRBM launcher that's missing its missile. Restoration work will probably be necessary to make this car functional.

I've been ebaying and picking up other stuff to make this project more fun. I bought one set that includes a 2026 loco that I'm hoping will be a bit more exciting. I've picked up a few more cars including an operating coal car that seems interesting. I've also gotten some switches, crossovers, bumpers, and uncouplers and am hoping to build a small layout based on the "The Phone Booth Terminal RR" I found here.










I also found a software package called Any Rail that's been fun to play with in designing layouts.

I suspect I'll quickly outgrow the 1015 transformer and am on the lookout for something better.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm restoring a 2026, it's certainly more locomotive than the 216. The lumber and barrel cars are a lot of fun, and they don't make the mess that the coal stuff can make.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Check out this link, when your done looking at these plans, at the bottom of the page is a link to get back to the main page.

http://www.thortrains.net/marx/kdlay0a.html

A ton of info here.
More plans too, you have to search his site. There is other info pertaining to trains.:thumbsup:


Not saying don't ask here, if you need to know ask we will try to help.

Post pictures anyway. You can get a missile for that car. I seen reproductions and originals on fee bay.

I see your going for an 4'x8'? 
If you can and have more room plan for a bigger layout before you start.
Easier to do it in the beginning.....if you have the room.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'm restoring a 2026, it's certainly more locomotive than the 216. The lumber and barrel cars are a lot of fun, and they don't make the mess that the coal stuff can make.


I meant to say 246 instead of 216, and have revised my post.

The lumber and barrel cars do look fun. I just haven't seen any at a price I'm willing to pay yet.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

big ed said:


> I see your going for an 4'x8'?
> If you can and have more room plan for a bigger layout before you start.
> Easier to do it in the beginning.....if you have the room.


Yes, I decided to start small because I don't want to raise the suspicions of the real decision maker in the house and get the "you're going to waste money on what?!" look. I have some ideas on ways to grow down the road...

That is a nice site you mentioned! I like the 2-loop systems allowing 2 trains at once. How would those be controlled? Can 2 separate transformers be used with 2 trains running on interconnected track or would I have to get a high-end, multi-train transformer like a ZW?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You isolate sections of the layout with insulating pins, then you can run with either two (or more) transformers or a dual control one like the KW or ZW.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Eljefe,

I've rebuilt the launch trigger mechanism on my 6650 missile car, and replaced the rubber baffle diaphragm. I can help you out with tips at some point, if needed.

Service info here, too:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=557

Regards,

TJ

EDIT ...

Oh, repro missiles are readily available. East Coast Train Parts, etc. ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Funny thing TJ, I had to do the same two things to mine.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks for the pointers, TJ. Looks like all I have is the flat car with launcher base. All the other pieces are missing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If a bunch of pieces are missing, you're probably better off keeping it as a parts car and buying another one on eBay if you want one of those. By the time you buy a bunch of parts, you have more than the price of the car. They don't go for that much on eBay. For the price you'd pay for all the parts, I'll sell you mine.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

I've seen some of the military cars, and they usually get pretty costly. Though they are cool, I'm happy with plain vanilla tank cars and gondolas for now since I'm starting from ground zero!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the "plain Jane" missile launcher with the blue base is actually pretty cheap.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Back to the original theme of the thread...I got some wire, hooked up a simple oval loop, and verified the transformer and locomotive are working (forward and reverse). One thing I noticed is there's quite a few sparks flying as it runs. I haven't cleaned the track yet--some sections looks shiny and new while others have corrosion. The sparking seems to be worst on the rustier tracks. One corroded section, in particular, routinely reverses the locomotive's direction. I replaced that section and have not seen the behavior again.

Is this shower of sparks normal? Just a sign a thorough cleaning is needed? Or an indication something is wrong?

I'll be busy with work the next few days, so that's the end of testing probably until next weekend.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You need to clean the track, the wheels of the locomotive, and the center rail pickups. That's a huge start to reducing the sparks. You'll see an occasional spark now and again, especially on some switches, but you shouldn't see many.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

Had a bit of a disappointment this week. A lot of cars and a locomotive I bought arrived, but the condition of all the items was much worse than the ad suggested. The locomotive was listed as a 2026 (it's actually a 2025) but it has major problems. The motor seems to work but the wheels are jamming up. I think the problem is the driving rods are misaligned and catching on the body. I've seen several threads on loco restorations, so I may need to try resuscitating this one...

The lot included a whistling tender and several cars. It looks like someone had taken the tender apart and now it's a real mess. Most of the cars are serviceable but there seems to be friction in a lot of the wheels. Several of the couplers don't seem to be working properly either. Two are operating cars that need repairs to work as intended. Lots of little projects to get everything fully functioning again!


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If anything it should keep you busy. 
The 2025 is a better engine, slightly larger than a 2026. Here is a detailed link on the engine for you to compare.

The center eccentric rod is the rascal to jamb. Make sure the others are straight. The rod has to be in tight so it won't slip and jam. The off set piece has two pins to help line it up on the wheel, so you have a 50/50 chance to the right position. The wheels should turn freely so you can check the problem areas. It won't help if the screws are bent.

Also you can see this link for better pictures.

Can' wait to see some "before" pictures.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

T-Man said:


> If anything it should keep you busy.
> The 2025 is a better engine, slightly larger than a 2026. Here is a detailed link on the engine for you to compare.
> 
> The center eccentric rod is the rascal to jamb. Make sure the others are straight. The rod has to be in tight so it won't slip and jam. The off set piece has two pins to help line it up on the wheel, so you have a 50/50 chance to the right position. The wheels should turn freely so you can check the problem areas. It won't help if the screws are bent.
> ...



If it is not the rods check each tooth of the gears. 

Sometimes one tooth is missing or you may have a something stuck in one.
If a tooth is missing you then need another gear.
More then once here on this site the same problem turned out to be a small piece of solder stuck in the gears.
Some engines with magnatraction will attract a piece of metal up into the gear area too.

Show us junk junkies some pictures of your treasures.:thumbsup:


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

T-Man said:


> If anything it should keep you busy.
> The 2025 is a better engine, slightly larger than a 2026. Here is a detailed link on the engine for you to compare.
> 
> The center eccentric rod is the rascal to jamb. Make sure the others are straight. The rod has to be in tight so it won't slip and jam. The off set piece has two pins to help line it up on the wheel, so you have a 50/50 chance to the right position. The wheels should turn freely so you can check the problem areas. It won't help if the screws are bent.
> ...


After reviewing the first link, I believe this must be a 1948-9 version of the 2025. Baldwin Disc is stamped into the drive wheels. The smokestack is black and looks to be part of the body casting rather than a separate part. If the simulated knuckle molded into the cowcatcher is really undersized compared to the standard knuckle on a car, then it's there too. The keystone number is really faint but appears to read 5690.

I believe the eccentric rod is the problem and seems to be what is hitting the body, but I haven't explored everything yet. Is there a guide on how to dismantle/reassemble one of these? I'm afraid to start pulling parts off without knowing how to get them back together!

By the way, this one looks in much better condition than what you started with in the second link! The paint is a little dinged here and there but I think that just gives it character. The worst physical damage to the body seems to be both the jewel holders on the boiler front are missing.


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## eljefe (Jun 11, 2011)

big ed said:


> If it is not the rods check each tooth of the gears.
> 
> Sometimes one tooth is missing or you may have a something stuck in one.
> If a tooth is missing you then need another gear.
> ...


From what I can see so far, the gears look to be intact and I don't see anything stuck in them. I'll need to get the unit apart for a full inspection.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Make sure you have the right size screw driver or nut nut driver when you take it apart. Try not to strip anything The previous owner may have over tighten one.So be cautious and hope they come out .

You can always take picture when you disassemble. I have had to go to other engines to see how it went back together. You have my thread too. I can revert back to mine.

The boiler front is held in with spring tension. The marker lights are attached to it. So that piece is replaceable.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Eljefe,

Here's a link to detailed pdf service sheets on the 2025 ...

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2025-46.htm

TJ


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