# Let's talk track



## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

Was thinking about getting some straight sections of original AF track. This led me to exploring other track options. And some questions. If I were to move away from original track, I would prefer track with roadbed. Might eventually migrate from the floor to a more permanent installation. 

Is AF Fastrack basically identical to MTH S-Trax? Interchangeable?

If I want to retain my oem AF switches what track is the best option? I've read that Gargraves is the way to go to run AF switches and does not require conversion track or pins. Does the Gargraves 401 fit the bill? If you go with Gargraves, is the roadbed an option?

Any better options or ideas? AF vintage rubber roadbed? 

Are there any other complications or issues that I should consider?


----------



## flyguy55 (Apr 20, 2015)

For sale on my local craigslist.....I have seen it at local shows for $3 to $5 a section.......think ad said $40 for all


----------



## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

Do you recommend the AF original with rubber roadbed? It does solve the issue of working with oem switches and special sections, like #712 and #710. I am assuming #690 track terminals work with it too. And I do have lots of clean track now. 

I can see some good advantages to going this route. I would need approximately 20 curved and 22 straight to accommodate all my track.


----------



## flyguy55 (Apr 20, 2015)

I think it comes down to personal preference and economics.When your track costs more than your trains that is a problem for me.Any kind of "Fast Track" Lionel MTH S-Helper can get to be very expensive for a good size layout.Also there is no compatibility with PW switches.I like PW and that is all I run so why not PW track.It is so inexpensive that is a no brainer for me.Are there advantages to newer track systems or Gargraves...I am sure there is but it is dependent on what kind of operator you are.Word of warning.....you do not need to have all you want at once...It is easy to get caught up in a buying frenzy and end up with items you'll never need....Go slow...ask questions....enjoy toy trains for what they are...a Past Time.....


----------



## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

flyguy55 said:


> I think it comes down to personal preference and economics.When your track costs more than your trains that is a problem for me.Any kind of "Fast Track" Lionel MTH S-Helper can get to be very expensive for a good size layout.Also there is no compatibility with PW switches.I like PW and that is all I run so why not PW track.It is so inexpensive that is a no brainer for me.Are there advantages to newer track systems or Gargraves...I am sure there is but it is dependent on what kind of operator you are.Word of warning.....you do not need to have all you want at once...It is easy to get caught up in a buying frenzy and end up with items you'll never need....Go slow...ask questions....enjoy toy trains for what they are...a Past Time.....


Well you nailed it there Flyguy55! My thinking is the same on cost vs value and compatibility. And I appreciate the advice on going too fast. I try and balance my enthusiasm and impatience with my needs, but I totally understand your point. LOL - it's like you've met me! Sometimes I totally immerse myself in something and burn through it too quickly.


----------



## cramden (Oct 13, 2015)

Everyone's preference is different on track type. I run vintage trains so I use the track and rubber roadbed that was sold for those trains. Others prefer newer track and turnouts. Gilbert sold tons of track and roadbed(the rubber roadbed was one of their most profitable items), and there is tons of it still for sale. You can find unused track and roadbed or slightly used if your patient. I would stay clear of piles of track for sale that is rusty or damaged, not worth the effort to try and salvage it. There is also black narrow tie roadbed that was made by Gilbert that isn't shown in the picture that Flyguy55 posted along with fiber roadbed that was made towards the end of Gilbert's production.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You cannot go wrong with original Gilbert track if you run the Gilbert postwar engines. It also intermixes with GarGraves track. If you are patient and determined you can also find the K-Line 27" radius curves.
The question to ask yourself is what will you want to operate in the future. Only 20"R turnouts are available for Gilbert and GarGraves track. I am not fond of its appearance but the Lionel FasTrack for S offers 27"R turnouts and curves along with an assortment of other track pieces. Be prepared for a big track bill.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Some additional thoughts. FasTrack has a transition piece that allows a direct connection between it and Gilbert track (or GarGraves.) 
MTH track looks better and has 3 different radius curves, But they only make 20"R turnouts and not all the accessory track pieces needed. It does not connect to FasTrack without cutting and gluing. There are other track choices such as AM but these do not come with roadbed.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

If money was no object, I would like a whole layout with Gargraves. To me, the most realistic looking track. You do have to ballast the track yourself. Fastrack would be second.
Fastrack is nice but maybe the most expensive. I am thinking of using a fastrack cross over. they make a 45 degree crossover. As far as I know gilbert only made a 90 degree. I need it to fit in a smaller area so 45 degree is better. With Fastrack I would need 5 pieces of fastrack. The crossover and 4 transition pieces to mate with my gilbert track.
Those 5 pieces will cost me over $50.00. Not cheap to do a figure eight. And who knows how good it will look.


Does Gargraves make a 45 degree crossover? does Gargraves mate with gilbert? If so that might be cheaper and would look better.

Gargraves makes flex track so you can do any radius.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Once upon a time when I lived in Chicago and had a house with a basement I built a layout with Gilbert turnouts and GarGraves flex track. I got a good price at the DuPage show on a case of flex track. it was less per foot than buying Gilbert track and the rubber roadbed. I needed about 200' of track. I moved before I started to ballast it. The track was on cork roadbed to facilitate ballasting. 
If we want to stay close to the original prewar concept but build a custom layout the GarGraves flex is really easy to work with and it connects directly to Gilbert track, no adapters needed and it is not too expensive. GarGraves does not make crossings of any angle but remember the Gilbert 90's can be cut down to the diamond which can make a big difference in the track plan.
Shaker, if you decide to go this way let us know, there are some learning experiences using Gilbert uncouplers and action tracks with GarGraves.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks for info Tom. I have a gilbert 90 degree crossover. I will look at it to cut down. I will never use it for anything else.
I just hear they are not that reliable with short tender trucks.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, here is a picture of one of many layouts I built using custom cut crossings. There are 12 operating accessories visible in this picture not counting the uncouplers and action car activation tracks. There are several more out of the picture to the right. I was into accessories back then.









Another view of the crossings.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Yes, you have the accessories going on. Nice layout.


----------



## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

A lot to think about. Thanks. Great pics, too!


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

I have boxes of rubber roadbed that I bought when I was getting it for $1 buck apiece, and I bought a ga-zillion pieces of it. My 3 AF loops all have rubber roadbed, 170' total.I also use GarGraves for my 1 O scale loop. GarGraves is inexpensive, looks great, and your trains will love it, if you go that route.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I want Gargraves. Might have to sell some stuff around here. Or get a job.

Since I lost my wife, not enough money coming in. LOL, not for my life style. There is just no extra.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Just went to Gargraves internet site. They really have some neat stuff. They do have a crossover but it is 90 degree. I want a 45 degree. Another neat thing is they have 4 rail track. It is for O and S scale on same piece of track. It is only 2 bucks more for a 30 some inch of track.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, I searched the GarGraves site for an S gauge crossover and could not find it! What section is it listed under?


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I will go back and see if I can find it and then show it here, Hope it wasn't O scale.



Tom, I could not find it. Couldn't find that 4 rail track either. Couldn't find a phone number either.
I will look again later.


----------



## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

AmFlyer said:


> Mopac, here is a picture of one of many layouts I built using custom cut crossings. There are 12 operating accessories visible in this picture not counting the uncouplers and action car activation tracks. There are several more out of the picture to the right. I was into accessories back then.
> 
> View attachment 503720
> 
> ...


I hope you don't mind me tweaking your fine photos. I appreciate the subject matter and a visual representation of it. I made the change to help out my old eyes. I will delete them should you wish. Thanks for all of your great posts!


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Fred, these two pictures are just some quick scans I made of older 4x6 prints. I like your work, there are a couple thousand more I could use your help with!!!


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, I went to the price list at GarGraves looking for crossings. All that is listed are four O gauge 90 degree crossings.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I am going to agree Tom. Had to be O scale. I guess I will have to buy fastrack for the crossover I want.
At least it will be dependable. Not my first choice.


----------



## AFGP9 (Apr 8, 2015)

Shaker281, except for K-LIne 27" curves which I bought new when you could, I have ran original AF track for years. I added extra ties between the AF ties to make things look more like the real thing. Once ballasted, the difference between the added ties and the originals is not noticeable. Plus all my track sides are painted a rust color. Some yard track pieces are actually real rust that I didn't remove. Just cleaned the tops, pins, and the pin holes for good contact. I used to buy all the AF track I could way back when. I agree that it is better to buy good track from the beginning to save cleaning time. That rusty track I got free because of the rust which wasn't as bad as the seller thought. I got it with the yard in mind. 
Other than the added ties, the track sides painted, and the K-Line curves, I have kept my layout original looking with 20 AF switches and AF track with no problems. Keeping things original was the plan from the beginning. I did try the AF road bed but didn't care for it so I sold all of it years ago. Just my preference. 
That K-Line curved track has become scarce which means pricey, whether on eBay or at shows. The good thing about that track is the nice wide 27" curves. 

I forgot to mention the AF black sided track. I have that too. Cramden mentioned it as well. If you just stick to good old AF track you can't go wrong in price and reliability. 

As a side note, I used furniture touch up Magic Marker type pens for the rust color. That took a little trial and error but in the end it made that project easier and less messy than actual paint.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I am envious you have K-Line 27" track. I have been looking for 24 curves. Not much around. It will show up though. And yes it is pricey, as compared to Gilbert track. I like
the Gargraves track but the Gilbert is fine. The AF layouts never look as realistic as many HO layouts (except Tom's) so the Gilbert track is fine. It fits in, and is cheap. And plenty of it around. I have seen the wood ties that can be added to the Gilbert track. I have even thought about making my own ties. I like my fingers so I don't know. I have already lost the first knuckle on one of my fingers. Not to a saw but to cancer. We got it in time and it was contained to first knuckle. Who ever heard of cancer in a finger. I managed to do it.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> I will go back and see if I can find it and then show it here, Hope it wasn't O scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Their phone # is 1-315-483-6577.


----------



## shaker281 (Jun 22, 2019)

This has been a great discussion. Thanks to everyone for the excellent input. One of my big takeaways is that sticking with original AF track is a good option. With or without the rubber track bed. BTW, I actually have a bunch of those wooden ties. Not enough for a full layout, but probably 100 or so. Interesting to know that people still use them. And I do like the idea of coloring the rail webbing "rust". That is pretty cool. I think that whatever I do, I will be looking to add track that is compatible with all my existing equipment. I'm definitely no looking to go "realistic", just vintage AF and functional with a bit of flair.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Just used the phone number flyernut posted for Gargraves. They do not make any S scale
crossovers. They said there is no demand for them. Why would there be a demand for O scale but not S. I think they would sell.

If you build it they will come.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

mopac said:


> Just used the phone number flyernut posted for Gargraves. They do not make any S scale
> crossovers. They said there is no demand for them. Why would there be a demand for O scale but not S. I think they would sell.
> 
> If you build it they will come.


Who did you talk to, Tom or Mike?.. Not that it matters.Both of them I consider friends, been dealing with them for a looong time, even my Dad brought his trains to Tom and Mike's Dad.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, if you really want the 27"R track I can sell you one of my 49621 new in the box Christmas sets! These sets have a circle of 27"R track as part of the set.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Neglected to mention earlier, AM makes both 30deg and 75deg crossings. You can always hand lay your own using most any rail. Here is mine using MTH rail.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

If anyone here is planning on building a layout with Gargraves track and wants some of the original style GarGraves turnouts let me know. I found three RH new in box while looking for the items I was posting. I am not sure of the size. Comparing them to the numbered turnouts on my layout they appear to be either a #6 or a #7.5. These make great high speed crossovers.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Great looking crossover Tom.


----------



## matpal (2 mo ago)

Hey guys, to resurrect this thread, can you say there is better option - or what you would do - if deciding between Gargraves and MTH? Assume that most of the track would be the flex sections from either manufacturer. 

I'm trying to decide between the two. I'm not a super serious hobbiest, so ultra realism is not that big of a deal for me. 

Does one or the others switches put the entire line above the other? I know Gargraves has no crossovers, which as of now is not an issue for me either. 

I've been told that production of the MTH line should resume this year under the new ownership, so not sure if that will be a benefit moving forward or they'll just keep all the same pieces and sizes. 

Thanks.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I made that evaluation/decision and picked MTH. It depends on what appearance you want to achieve with the layout, if you need wide radius or numbered turnouts to run scale length cars and what your budget is. When I made the decision MTH was still making their flex track. Now MTH is gone, FVM is out of stock but planning on restocking flex and their #5 turnouts sometime in the future, and Scale Trains is in the process of reactivating the Showcase line of track purchased from MTH. The issue is it will take a lot of time because Scale Trains is having to redesign the turnouts prior to starting production.
I wanted a highly detailed scale appearing layout. This was done with MTH flex and handlaid turnouts. I paid to have 45 #5,#6&#8's made using the MTH rail. The turnouts cost a lot. The turnouts cost much more than a lot.
With GarGraves track Gilbert turnouts are the best choice. GarGraves makes 20"R turnouts but the Gilbert ones are better. For crossings use Gilbert. I have some numbered ROW Industries turnouts built with GarGraves rail but not enough to help you complete a layout.
The only track systems currently in stock with crossings and wide radius turnouts are FasTrack and American Models.


----------



## matpal (2 mo ago)

I guess my issue is, just getting into the hobby, I don't know exactly what I want or need. I do know I don't think I'll ever run scale trains.

It seems I am reading that ballasting the Gargraves is more difficult than the MTH for some reason? And that it may be harder to work with in bending the flex sections?

Last question (hopefully) - I know MTH has adapter pins to connect to the Gilbert track. Would there be any issues using the Gilbert turnouts with MTH?


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

We need to be able to list our must haves and our nice to haves in order to make these kind of decisions and not regret the chosen path later.
MTH did make adapter pins but I wish you the best of luck finding them now. Lionel makes 5" long adapter track pieces to join FasTrack to Gilbert track. If you are using MTH flex no adapters are needed, just butt the flex to the Gilbert track and solder. I have never seen a layout with Gilbert turnouts and MTH flex but it could be done. Why not just buy some MTH turnouts on eBay?
S gauge GarGraves flex is very easy to bend, I have built several layouts with it.
Its easier to ballast MTH flex than GarGraves because the ties are thinner.
Some pictures below.


----------



## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

matpal said:


> I guess my issue is, just getting into the hobby, I don't know exactly what I want or need. I do know I don't think I'll ever run scale trains.
> 
> It seems I am reading that ballasting the Gargraves is more difficult than the MTH for some reason? And that it may be harder to work with in bending the flex sections?
> 
> Last question (hopefully) - I know MTH has adapter pins to connect to the Gilbert track. Would there be any issues using the Gilbert turnouts with MTH?


I was given this form-maker/track bender by a good buddy of mine. Maybe picking up something like this could help you??


----------



## matpal (2 mo ago)

Tom, you're a gentleman and a scholar, thank you.

Is that standard 3/16 cork that elevates the flex track to an equal height with the plastic roadbed?


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

It is standard cork roadbed. It does not elevate the flex to the same railhead height as the sectional track. Look closely around the Sensor Track and Uncoupler pieces and the cutout in the plywood track base is visible.


----------



## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is a picture of the finished layout area plus the underside of the layout. The uncouplers just required chiseling out one ply of the plywood base. The Sensor track requires a complete cutout because of all the electronics and connections needed. 
We are off in the master classes of layout building here. None of this would be necessary for what you are planning but it may be helpful in understanding why I chose MTH flex track for this layout.


----------



## matpal (2 mo ago)

Most impressive!


----------

