# Need help with power supply ..



## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

So I have peco pl10 which recommends a 16v power supply. I thought I had one that was 16 but cannot find it or was mistaken when reading it. I have plenty of 12v but I doubt thise will work unless I'm mistaken on that.

The only thing I have (that I can actually use) is a old laptop variable power supply.
Is there anyway to get it to work?

Taking a pic of it


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> So I have peco pl10 which recommends a 16v power supply. I thought I had one that was 16 but cannot find it or was mistaken when reading it. I have plenty of 12v but I doubt thise will work unless I'm mistaken on that.
> 
> The only thing I have (that I can actually use) is a old laptop variable power supply.
> Is there anyway to get it to work?
> ...


Conductorkev;

Yes, either the 12 volt supply, or the 15-20 volt one shown in your photo, should work. The Peco PL-10's coils should work fine on 12 volts. Since the computer supply goes up to 20 volts, you might want to add a 15 volt regulator between it, and your PL-10s. However, as the current through a PL-10 is momentary, its not likely that an extra 4 volts will do any harm.

Traction Fan


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

traction fan said:


> Conductorkev;
> 
> Yes, either the 12 volt supply, or the 15-20 volt one shown in your photo, should work. The Peco PL-10's coils should work fine on 12 volts. Since the computer supply goes up to 20 volts, you might want to add a 15 volt regulator between it, and your PL-10s. However, as the current through a PL-10 is momentary, its not likely that an extra 4 volts will do any harm.
> 
> Traction Fan


I'm putting a cdu in between them. It's probably going to be 7 I'm going to do this way and eventually get them on a decoder.. so it shouldn't hurt the cdu either way?


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

So I took the computer plug and took the end off which left me stumped.

3 sets of strands each insulated from each other however which is which?

Taking pic


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Conductorkev said:


> So I took the computer plug and took the end off which left me stumped.
> 
> 3 sets of strands each insulated from each other however which is which?


Mmm, well, I'd say it's time to dig out the old multimeter . . .  

And, FWIW, I've come to believe that "stumped" may pretty much be my new normal when tackling new things . . . or even old.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Steve on Cattail Creek said:


> Mmm, well, I'd say it's time to dig out the old multimeter . . .
> 
> And, FWIW, I've come to believe that "stumped" may pretty much be my new normal when tackling new things . . . or even old.



Weird set of wires isn't..


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Conductorkev said:


> Weird set of wires isn't..


The pic was a bit out of focus, but it appears to be of concentric shielded coax design of some sort, not common on power supplies -- IME power conductors usually rely on an in-line choke to suppress noise, rather than shielded wires.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Steve on Cattail Creek said:


> The pic was a bit out of focus, but it appears to be of concentric shielded coax design of some sort, not common on power supplies -- IME power conductors usually rely on an in-line choke to suppress noise, rather than shielded wires.



Coax always has a solid wire in the middle this Is like 3 of the wire mesh (like coax).

See if this pic is better










The black was the outside coating the long strand went next. Stripped came to the mesh in the middle then the smaller one was inside that.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Yep, still looks like coaxial cable, but with concentric inner layers rather than either a single inner conductor (like that used for TV, other RF or older computer network wiring), or a single shield around braided conductors. Still not a clue why they would go to the trouble and expense of using such an unusual configuration for a pedestrian power supply connection, though.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Steve on Cattail Creek said:


> Yep, still looks like coaxial cable, but with concentric inner layers rather than either a single inner conductor (like that used for TV, other RF or older computer network wiring), or a single shield around braided conductors. Still not a clue why they would go to the trouble and expense of using such an unusual configuration for a pedestrian power supply connection, though.


It was a universal power plug for laptops. Any idea which is hot/cold/ground?


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Well, I'm pretty sure the outer braid would be ground, and if the power supply offered multiple voltages, I'd guess the inner braid and center conductor will each show varying voltages to ground, and likely between them as well. As I said, time to break out the multimeter -- this is not something you want to trust to analysis alone!


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Steve on Cattail Creek said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure the outer braid would be ground, and if the power supply offered multiple voltages, I'd guess the inner braid and center conductor will each show varying voltages to ground, and likely between them as well. As I said, time to break out the multimeter -- this is not something you want to trust to analysis alone!



Hate doing anything with live exposed wires..... I would put the meter on DC right


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Think you were right about ground. The middle is the hot and the inner I believe the cold. As for output well I'm not very good at reading those lol


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

Well, I can think of no reason to make a doubly-shielded inner wire a ground (since the ground is usually the conductor closest to the outside, to avoid a short if the outer insulation is penetrated), but since I don't understand why such a fancy cable was used in the first place, I suppose anything is possible. I don't know your multimeter, but yes, you're almost certainly looking for a relatively low DC voltage (so I doubt your life or limbs are at risk!), and you want to be sure to test all possible pairs for their potential. For instance, on a tutorial I saw about recycling an old computer power supply to provide multiple output voltages, stacking the various power taps can yield a startling range of output voltages, and something similar might be happening in with your "universal" power supply. In any event, good luck!


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

The receptacle plug suggests it has no ground wire, just like a floor lamp.
If there is a wide blade and narrower blade on the plug, the wide is neutral (white), the narrow is the line/load side (black). If you can check for continuity between the line/load blade(prong) and the center conductor you’ll figure out which is white & black. 
No need for “live” wires when checking continuity. One probe on the narrow plug blade, put the other probe on the central conductor. If 0, try on the surrounding shield wires.

The outer most steel mesh is probably reinforcement and nothing more.


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

OilValleyRy said:


> The receptacle plug suggests it has no ground wire, just like a floor lamp.
> If there is a wide blade and narrower blade on the plug, the wide is neutral (white), the narrow is the line/load side (black). If you can check for continuity between the line/load blade(prong) and the center conductor you’ll figure out which is white & black.
> No need for “live” wires when checking continuity. One probe on the narrow plug blade, put the other probe on the central conductor. If 0, try on the surrounding shield wires.
> 
> The outer most steel mesh is probably reinforcement and nothing more.


Whoa -- just to be clear, be sure the power supply is unplugged from the wall before you test for continuity between either prong of the input plug and any output conductor!


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> The receptacle plug suggests it has no ground wire, just like a floor lamp.
> If there is a wide blade and narrower blade on the plug, the wide is neutral (white), the narrow is the line/load side (black). If you can check for continuity between the line/load blade(prong) and the center conductor you’ll figure out which is white & black.
> No need for “live” wires when checking continuity. One probe on the narrow plug blade, put the other probe on the central conductor. If 0, try on the surrounding shield wires.
> 
> The outer most steel mesh is probably reinforcement and nothing more.



I get volts when I have one on center mesh and either of the other two. When I try the other two not the center I get probably less than halfthan when trying with the center.

The other end goes into what is converting the power. The side I took off to expose the wires is a small round plug thst you see going into laptops. I'll see if I can expose the connections in there.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Steve on Cattail Creek said:


> Whoa -- just to be clear, be sure the power supply is unplugged from the wall before you test for continuity between either prong of the input plug and any output conductor!


You can’t check for continuity if it’s plugged in to the wall.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

So on the wall plug end, put the red probe on… well either blade. And red or black probe doesn't matter. The other probe on the center conductor. 
When checking for continuity you’re looking for the meter closing a circuit, aka the probes seeing each other through that transformer. If 1 probe is on white and one is on black, you’ll get nothing. If both are on white OR in black, they should show continuity through the transformer. Knowing which blade is which will tell you which stripped wire is hot and which is neutral. Wide blade is always neutral/white.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> So on the wall plug end, put the red probe on… well either blade. And red or black probe doesn't matter. The other probe on the center conductor.
> When checking for continuity you’re looking for the meter closing a circuit, aka the probes seeing each other through that transformer. If 1 probe is on white and one is on black, you’ll get nothing. If both are on white OR in black, they should show continuity through the transformer. Knowing which blade is which will tell you which stripped wire is hot and which is neutral. Wide blade is always neutral/white.



The plug in side is only two prong into the wall


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Correct. Hot & Neutral. No ground.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> I'm putting a cdu in between them. It's probably going to be 7 I'm going to do this way and eventually get them on a decoder.. so it shouldn't hurt the cdu either way?


I think that will work.

Traction Fan


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## Steve on Cattail Creek (11 mo ago)

OilValleyRy said:


> You can’t check for continuity if it’s plugged in to the wall.


Well, you _can_ if you really try, as the many who've accidentally dropped a conductor across the prongs of a partially inserted plug can testify . . . assuming they survived! I just wanted to be sure your advice wasn't misconstrued.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> Correct. Hot & Neutral. No ground.



I'm guessing then the middle is the hot the inner is the neutral and the outer Is just there to protect the other two?


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

the outer encases the core and is a shield. you have no used for it


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Conductorkev said:


> The plug in side is only two prong into the wall


That simply means there is nothing on the plug, or in the wiring, that connects to your house's ground. The two baldes are hot and neutral, with the wider blade being neutral. These are commonly referred to as "2-plug" as opposed to "3-plug." The round shaped third prong carries the house's ground up through the wiring on 3-plug wires. 

OVR was simply trying to help your troubleshooting by eliminating the need to trace the 3rd wire through the transformer.

You either have 2 independent sets of wires coming from the transformer, or those braided pieces are just shielding or perhaps structural.

If you have 2 sets of wires, it is possible that the braided wires may be common, and the wires inside the more traditional insulation could both be hot, but may have different uses by whatever was being fed juice in its original application. In other words, perhaps 12v coming through the larger hot wire, while the smaller wire may by 5v.

So the test would be to set your multimeter to check for continuity. Touch one probe to one of the 2 blades that go into the electric plug on the wall. Then take the other probe and touch all the bare wires at the other end, and see which wires show continuity. 

Since you don't have to worry about the 3rd prong, you are simply trying to figure out which of the 4 wires (2 traditional, 2 braided) coming out of the transformer will be connected to which prong going into the wall outlet.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Conductorkev said:


> It was a universal power plug for laptops. Any idea which is hot/cold/ground?


Conductorkev;

Technically speaking*, the output wires from the cord you opened will not be "hot" or "ground". The output wires will carry 15-20 volts DC. One of those two wires will be positive, and the other negative. The two center wires should be checked with a volt meter set for a low DC voltage range like 20 volts DC. Touch the meter probes to the two center wires of the output cable that you cut open, while the power supply is plugged into a wall outlet. The meter should read either 20 volts DC, or -20 volts DC. If the reading is -20vdc then reverse the probes. When you get a reading of 20 volts DC the red meter probe will be on the positive output wire, (which you called "hot") and the black meter probe will be on the negative wire. (which you called "ground") As others have said, the outer mesh wire is likely a "shield" , and does not need to be used for your powering PL-10s project. 


* The input plug that goes into the wall outlet is where you will have an actual "hot" of 115-120 volts AC and a "neutral" which is the AC return wire, which is at zero volts AC. Strictly speaking, There is no "ground" conductor, since the plug does not have a third prong.

Traction Fan


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Ok thank you TF I now know which is which and will wire it accordingly.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Don't mess around with the unknown.
Just do what I did, buy from Home Depot the transformer
for a door bell. It has 18 v AC output. That powered my Capacitor
Discharge Unit. The CDU powered the 20 plus Peco
Insulfrog turnouts using Peco PL10 motors.

Don


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

DonR said:


> Don't mess around with the unknown.
> Just do what I did, buy from Home Depot the transformer
> for a door bell. It has 18 v AC output. That powered my Capacitor
> Discharge Unit. The CDU powered the 20 plus Peco
> ...



What something like this?






Newhouse Hardware - Doorbell Transformers - Doorbells - The Home Depot


Get free shipping on qualified Newhouse Hardware Doorbell Transformers products or Buy Online Pick Up in Store today in the Electrical Department.



www.homedepot.com





What you wire the wires in back to a plug or directly into your power and hook the cdu thru the two screws in front?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Exactly. I just attached a short pair to the transformer
input wires. I plut an ordinary
lamp plug on the end. Plug it into your AC power strip.
You'll have all the power you need for your turnouts.
The output is AC but Capacitor Discharge units are
available that with rectify to DC. You use the output
of the CDU as the input to all of your twin coil or
single solenoid turnout motors. The turnout motor
coils are protected by the CDU from burnout.

Don


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The transformer input wires connect to the
two plug BLADES not to the tubular. There was
no ground on the transformer I used, but if
there is a ground on the one you get it's 
ground wire would go to the tubular prong.

Don


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## Old_Hobo (Feb 20, 2014)

Isn’t it fun trying to do something on the cheap….?


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

DonR said:


> The transformer input wires connect to the
> two plug BLADES not to the tubular. There was
> no ground on the transformer I used, but if
> there is a ground on the one you get it's
> ...


Ya wasn't getting that computer plug working so got the doorbell transformer and it worked on a pl11 going to try a pl10 when I get a chance. The wire instructions are not that good for them I know one side you hook together and goes to one of the poles on the spdt. Now on the other side does it matter which is the common which goes to the transformer?


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## REdington (Aug 20, 2018)

Make sure you use momentary contact switches for the P 10's motors. Other wise you will burn them out.
For P 10's, either side coming out of the transformer connects to the center post on the motor. The other side coming out of the transformer goes to the center post of the SPDT momentary switch. The outer posts of the switch goes to each of the outer posts of the motor.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

REdington said:


> Make sure you use momentary contact switches for the P 10's motors. Other wise you will burn them out.
> For P 10's, either side coming out of the transformer connects to the center post on the motor. The other side coming out of the transformer goes to the center post of the SPDT momentary switch. The outer posts of the switch goes to each of the outer posts of the motor.


I'm using a cdu but still using spdt. On off on.


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## REdington (Aug 20, 2018)

Still need to use momentary on-off-on switches or you'll burn the motors up. They're not designed to be under continuous power.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, a momentary SPDT toggle would be best for
your turnout control thru the CDU. It allows for
the CDU to recharge after powering the turnout coil
Recharge happens in a split second. So you can
flip a 2nd turnout instantly after throwing the first.

Don


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Just to be clear, a momentary on-off-on toggle switch will return to the center "off" position on its own. So when you want to throw the points on your turnout, flip the toggle, but let it bounce back to the off position.

If you use a regular toggle, you have to remember to manually return the toggle to the off position, or the constant power to the PL10 will fry it. The momentary switches just make it a lot simpler in the long run.

The CDU sort of accomplishes the same thing. The CDU will "dump" its stored electricity, but will not send any more electricity until you flip another switch. But it's just good practice to uses momentary toggles with coil based (electromagnetic) electric switches.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Another thing to consider is accidental actuation while working/operating. To resolve that some folks recess said toggles into a pvc cap, but a colored safety cap works too. Some safety caps are illuminated (extra $) but I’m not sure if they could be modified with bi-color LEDs to indicate which way the turnout position is. But that’d be kinda neat if it’s possible. 
I was going to try it, but….
_Vader voi_ce I have altered the deal… pray I don’t alter it any further.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

OilValleyRy said:


> Another thing to consider is accidental actuation while working/operating. To resolve that some folks recess said toggles into a pvc cap, but a colored safety cap works too. Some safety caps are illuminated (extra $) but I’m not sure if they could be modified with bi-color LEDs to indicate which way the turnout position is. But that’d be kinda neat if it’s possible.
> I was going to try it, but….
> _Vader voi_ce I have altered the deal… pray I don’t alter it any further.



Ya that would be cool


With the pl 10 or 11 do I have buy something else to have signals on my panel?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

You have a couple options. Peco makes a device that sits on the bottom of teh PL10, and it has a switch that reciprocates with the movement of teh PL10. It can be attached and used to send juice the right light, could be LED or could be incandescent.

I have a few of them, but they are really old. They are in their original packaging. I have no use for them. I'd be happy to give you the ones I have. I think they are called PL13s


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

I was going to say leaning yes although I’m not sure how. I had mine hooked up to a stationary decoder. Of the 6 solder tabs I think the center two were unused? I remember power came in on two of the 6, a jumper between 2 others. I think the center two could be utilized for either a powered frog polarity, or an LED/bulb, or both. But I’m not sure how to wire them for that as I used CTC routing so blade position was never a concern for me.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The ideal way to control your PL10s AND
control panel and trackside signals is by
using the Stapleton 751 toggle switch.
It even comes with built in CDU. It will
throw your points and change the
aspect of trackside and panel signals.



751 SERIES ELECTRONIC TURNOUT SWITCHES



Don


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

DonR said:


> The ideal way to control your PL10s AND
> control panel and trackside signals is by
> using the Stapleton 751 toggle switch.
> It even comes with built in CDU. It will
> ...


Cool but 8.75 a piece......


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Conductorkev said:


> Cool but 8.75 a piece......
> 
> $6.40 ea for five.
> $5.40 ea for ten.
> A little less pain in the wallet.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The quantity rate per Killowwatt would make the
units about what you would pay for a DPDT toggle.

Don


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

With you having to assemble and someone with my ironing skill would screw up at least 1 lol


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Conductorkev said:


> With you having to assemble and someone with my ironing skill would screw up at least 1 lol
> 
> Naww.
> You can do it sir. Be brave. We’re here to help, obviously.


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## Ace918 (Apr 5, 2021)

Conductorkev said:


> So I have peco pl10 which recommends a 16v power supply. I thought I had one that was 16 but cannot find it or was mistaken when reading it. I have plenty of 12v but I doubt thise will work unless I'm mistaken on that.
> 
> The only thing I have (that I can actually use) is a old laptop variable power supply.
> Is there anyway to get it to work?
> ...


The power supply is called a switching supply. there should be NO continuity between either of the wall plug pins and the DC output wires. That is isolation for your protection. If you still have the connector you removed from the end, I assume it is the kind with a 'hole' in the center surrounded by a metal sleeve. Look at the bottom of the power supply, where it says energy level V the wire going to the outer sleeve is your negative, which is indicated by the wire going to what looks like the letter 'C' the positive wire goes to the black dot, inside the 'C'. Those should be the two wires inside the braid or aluminum shield. That shield is to keep any RF noise from being radiated and possibly interfering with any electronics. The reason you do not have a 3-wire power cord is that the narrower pin, the 'hot' lead is completely insulated from any external frame you may come in contact with, drill motor, etc. That 2 wire plug is basically a polarized plug. The wide pin is the neutral wire, not to be confused with the ground wire which would be the round pin on a 3-pin plug. If you look at the back of a wall outlet you will see a black wire which is the 'hot' wire it goes to the golden-colored screw on the outlet, while the 'neutral' white wire goes to the silver screw and the ground most likely is a bare wire that goes to the green screw on the side of the outlet.







Conductorkev said:


> So I have peco pl10 which recommends a 16v power supply. I thought I had one that was 16 but cannot find it or was mistaken when reading it. I have plenty of 12v but I doubt thise will work unless I'm mistaken on that.
> 
> The only thing I have (that I can actually use) is a old laptop variable power supply.
> Is there anyway to get it to work?
> ...


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## Scotty (Oct 25, 2013)

Conductorkev said:


> Weird set of wires isn't..


You may have a supply for a Dell. It uses some kind of handshaking to the computer and power supply to work together. I'd use a meter, find the two wires that produce the 15 volts and tape up the other one. If none of the combinations give the 15, then I'm "stumped" also on how to get it to work.


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## Conductorkev (Nov 5, 2021)

Scotty said:


> You may have a supply for a Dell. It uses some kind of handshaking to the computer and power supply to work together. I'd use a meter, find the two wires that produce the 15 volts and tape up the other one. If none of the combinations give the 15, then I'm "stumped" also on how to get it to work.



I gave up the readings were all over the place so I bought a transformer that works after testing just need to finish installing it.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Don’t give up on that power supply for future projects. The circuitry inside is designed to give a variable voltage based on the amount of load. A DMM has very little load while reading voltage so the power supply will not really react well to it. Putting a 12v automotive light across the center and inner shield wires should stabilize the voltage, then you can read it at the bulb, and it should be around 15v at that point. Don’t worry about the bulb being a 12v bulb and the power supply being 15 to 20v as an automotive bulb is designed to work properly around 15v anyway as that’s what your vehicle‘s alternator produces. Many computer power supplies will not show a stable voltage until a load is applied to it. This goes especially true with the box type from tower computers.


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