# Turnout help



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

I've been working on my first layout and have everything up and running, but I'm having trouble with turnouts. Specifically, I have two RH Atlas snap switches that will not direct trains to the right. No matter what I try, the trains proceed straight ahead and derail slightly. The problem doesn't seem to be the points but rather the tendency of the trains to ride up and over the switch and continue forward.

I know Atlas snap switches aren't of especially high quality, but is there anything I might try short of replacing them? 

If I must replace them, would CustomLine switches be similar enough to avoid tearing everything out?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

No. Custom Line switches have a different geometry and are not a direct replacement for cheap snap switches. It would be worth it to replace them with Peco turnouts.


----------



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

MichaelE said:


> No. Custom Line switches have a different geometry and are not a direct replacement for cheap snap switches. It would be worth it to replace them with Peco turnouts.


Would Peco switches have approximately the same geometry?


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

No.


----------



## Dennis461 (Jan 5, 2018)

If they are brass, replace them.
Let us see some pictures.
Are both points moving when you switch them?
Are they manual or electrically operated?
Are they laying flat on the layout?


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

It sounds to me like your points don't lie at grade with their stock rails. If they sit low, the flanges won't make contact with them and the train will run toward the frog and simply find too wide a gauge.

I would get some strong light to bear on the place near the points, and on up to the closure rails and the frog, and watch what happens when you push one of the problem cars along from behind it with a finger tip. If the lead axle passes over the point rail that should line the path by its 'lie', then the point is too low.

Also, it's possible to 'pick' points if they don't lie tight to their stock rails when the throwbar is fully to one side or the other. Snap turnouts are, sorry to have to use the words, toy-like in their construction and purpose. They're intended for small oval fun track systems that have short cars and smaller engines running over them. A Code 100 Peco #4 may offer you some relief, but I have no idea if they will simply fall into the same gap and not require you to fiddle with track alignment around them. Quite likely not.

Also, have you confirmed that all axles are in gauge with an NMRA track gauge for the scale?


----------



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Thank you for helping me to diagnose the problem.

The switches are new and nickel silver switches.

I have attached photographs of the one that I am most concerned about. It is on a downward slope that comes from the height of the cork road bed to the styrofoam surface of the rail yard over a distance of about 18 inches. It seems to sit flat on that incline, though maybe there are small irregularities I should be looking for.

I will try to look for some of the specific things that you've mentioned. Let me know if you see anything strange in the pictures.


I haven't checked gauge, but this happens with every locomotive and trailing car, so I suspect the problem might be with the points lying too low. If so, is that something that I can adjust or would I need to purchase a new switch?


----------



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Might it need to be superelevated because of the slope?


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I've enlarged a portion of your top photo that I think is the problem:








It looks like the very end of the point rail has been bent to better hug the stock rail. I think that bend is too abrupt. I think it causes the rest of the point rail to be out of gauge, being too narrow, which is causing the wheels to jump over the point. I would try to remove or at least smooth out the bend. You'll then have to see if the point rail will properly hug the stock rail. You shouldn't see the gap between the point rail and the stock rail like you have in your picture.


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

And there is a kink in the rail leading up to this turnout and as Mark says, the bend in the point is way too much. Probably bent that way because the point was being spit by the wheel flanges, but that's not solvable by this type of bend. There really should not be any bend like that, need to straighten the point out.


----------



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Thanks for those careful observations. This will give me something to work on this weekend and hopefully report back on favorably.


----------



## aquakiwi (Oct 2, 2019)

Apologies first for a bit of a thread hi-jack, re turnouts, will a L/H and R/H turnouts work connected in an elongagated D shape? The straight part of the D being the mainline.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

There are several kinks before and through the turnout. Good eye Mesenteria. The point rail is definitely not helping the situation.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

65steam said:


> Thanks for those careful observations. This will give me something to work on this weekend and hopefully report back on favorably.


65steam;

A gentle squeeze with a pair of needle-nose pliers across the bent area at the end of the point rail and the stock rail next to it, should draw the point into the stock rail and return it to the right shape. Once that is done try your turnout again, and see if it works better.

Atlas Snap Switch turnouts have a unique geometry, with one straight route, and one curved route. All normal turnouts including Atlas custom line numbered turnouts, have two straight routes. The exception being curved turnouts, which have two curved routes. So, no other turnout will be an exact, drop-in, replacement for an Atlas snap switch.
However, it is quite easy to replace a snap switch with a better quality turnout, but you have to insert some short sections of flex track, and may have to take up some of the existing Atlas sectional "Snap track" in order to get things lined up.

If your Atlas snap switch works better after you straighten out the bent point rail, you can decrease it's derailment tendencies considerably by using the procedures in the first file below titled "Improving Atlas Turnouts. The first file covers the HO-scale snap switch, and the second is primarily concerned with the N-scale snap switch. The third File has a lot of information on model turnouts in general, including some ratings by brand, should you decide to replace your Atlas snap switches with something better.

If you don't already own an NMRA gauge, buy one. It will be essential to check and modify the turnout, and is also a very handy tool for many other jobs on any model railroad, including checking the gauge of those point rails, once the bent end is fixed, and the gauge of your wheels, either or both can also cause derailments. The gauge costs about $6, and you can order one from www.modeltrainstuff.com

Good Luck & Have Fun

Traction Fan 🙂


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I have many Peco turnouts. I have none with the problem of the bent point rail. That is what is causing your troubles, almost certainly.
I suspect the point cannot swing sideways as it should. Something under it, or between the point and the stock rail it's supposed to nest against at the last 1 cm, is preventing it from sliding. You must use a curved dental pick type implement and get under and between those rails and make very certain nothing is snagging it. Also, is there anything on the tie tops nearby...any of the ties that could have some glue, schmutz, bits of dirt/ballast, ground foam bits of scenery...?

What can help is flushing the space with a dropper full of 70% isopropyl alcohol, letting it sit for 20 seconds, and then throwing the throwbar repeatedly to see if that frees it up.

At some point, you're going to have to deal with that mangled point end. I would place something beside the stock rail to steady it, something that won't let it budge. Then, a matchstick or something like that between the point tip and the stock rail. Then get pliers and mash that tip flat again by pinching the stock rail and the point tip at the same time. If you're lucky, the tip will flatten a lot and the rail behind it will now swing fully into place. If not, throw out the turnout and replace it. It will be no end of trouble for you.


----------



## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Mark got it right in post 9 above.

The points of the switch are all "munged up". NO GOOD at all.

Best to replace the entire switch.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

aquakiwi said:


> Apologies first for a bit of a thread hi-jack, re turnouts, will a L/H and R/H turnouts work connected in an elongagated D shape? The straight part of the D being the mainline.


aquakiwi;

I don't understand what you mean by "an elongated 'D' shape." Can you send a photo? Normally R/H and L/H turnouts will work no mater what's connected to what, in terms of track connections.

Traction Fan 🙂


----------



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Thanks, everyone, for such helpful advice. I cleaned out underneath the track to make sure nothing was catching. I then worked on the point with a small pliers to flatten it out properly. (That turned out to be a much easier task than I anticipated.) I also slightly shimmed the outside edge of the curve, as it seemed that the slope was making it sub-elevated. I then ran several passes through the switch in both directions and everything worked perfectly. I still intend to work on some minor kinks here and elsewhere on the layout, which are not causing currently problems but might at some point in the future. I appreciate your advice.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

65steam said:


> Thanks, everyone, for such helpful advice. I cleaned out underneath the track to make sure nothing was catching. I then worked on the point with a small pliers to flatten it out properly. (That turned out to be a much easier task than I anticipated.) I also slightly shimmed the outside edge of the curve, as it seemed that the slope was making it sub-elevated. I then ran several passes through the switch in both directions and everything worked perfectly. I still intend to work on some minor kinks here and elsewhere on the layout, which are not causing currently problems but might at some point in the future. I appreciate your advice.



65steam;

Glad to hear things are working again!

When you have the time, you might read the first file I sent you and add shims to the flangeways of your Atlas snap switch. It makes quite a difference in preventing derailments. One of our members, "gimme30" had lots of trouble getting his GG-1 locomotive to go through his Atlas snap switch without derailments. Adding the shims as outlined in the file, stopped the derailments.

Good Luck & Have Fun

Traction Fan 🙂


----------



## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Thanks. I will take a closer look at that.


----------



## aquakiwi (Oct 2, 2019)

traction fan said:


> aquakiwi;
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by "an elongated 'D' shape." Can you send a photo? Normally R/H and L/H turnouts will work no mater what's connected to what, in terms of track connections.
> 
> Traction Fan 🙂


Here's a roughly "stitched" picture of what I mean, there's about 8ft of track between turnouts.


----------



## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

aquakiwi said:


> Here's a roughly "stitched" picture of what I mean, there's about 8ft of track between turnouts.
> 
> View attachment 550593


aquakiwi;

That looks like a simple passing siding to me. I'm assuming the top track in the left photo joins the top track in the right photo, and the two bottom tracks join each other. This is a common arrangement on many railroads, both model and real. There shouldn't be any problem with it. 

Traction Fan


----------



## cpretzman (May 5, 2020)

65steam said:


> I've been working on my first layout and have everything up and running, but I'm having trouble with turnouts. Specifically, I have two RH Atlas snap switches that will not direct trains to the right. No matter what I try, the trains proceed straight ahead and derail slightly. The problem doesn't seem to be the points but rather the tendency of the trains to ride up and over the switch and continue forward.
> 
> I know Atlas snap switches aren't of especially high quality, but is there anything I might try short of replacing them?
> 
> If I must replace them, would CustomLine switches be similar enough to avoid tearing everything out?





65steam said:


> Thanks. I will take a closer look at that.


I had similar problems, and my issues came down to the level of the switch. I found a package of 4 small rectangular spirit levels (15x15x40mm; $3.50 Amazon) that I can place across the tracks. Once I shimmed to level, all my issues went away.


----------



## aquakiwi (Oct 2, 2019)

traction fan said:


> aquakiwi;
> 
> That looks like a simple passing siding to me. I'm assuming the top track in the left photo joins the top track in the right photo, and the two bottom tracks join each other. This is a common arrangement on many railroads, both model and real. There shouldn't be any problem with it.
> 
> Traction Fan


Thats what it is and what I wanted to know, I guess Ill just need some feeders off the Bus line.


----------

