# A Track layout software question



## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

I know there's a bunch of track layout softwares out there though I'm completely unfamiliar with any of them as I've never had the need to use one of them.

But now I got all this model Train stuff, and I'm curious about something.

So, I'm hoping that you all that are familiar with them know if any of them can do this...

Are there any that I can just input all the different pieces I have, click a button and it will create various layouts that can be created using those parts?

Even one that you might be able to go as far as select select some options when doing so like country side style or add a mountain area.. or industrial center or yard? And then go - click!

Like a roll the dice button and see what layout it comes up with.

And if you don't like it you go - click! again. And it comes up with another one. Just keep clicking "Roll the Dice" till you find one you like.

If there isn't, might be a cool addition to any train track layout software... for someone like me it would be anyway. 😉

Just curious about it...


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

An interesting idea. Essentially you just want to search the database for how many bill of materials match the track you have. Seems like this would work better manually rather than automated since you could find layouts that would meet your size constraint then match the bill of materials to yours to see how much more you needed to make the layout.


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

Lemonhawk said:


> An interesting idea. Essentially you just want to search the database for how many bill of materials match the track you have. Seems like this would work better manually rather than automated since you could find layouts that would meet your size constraint then match the bill of materials to yours to see how much more you needed to make the layout.


No, I want to input what I have. Give it layout dimensions. Then click "Roll the Dice" and see what layout design it comes up with, using only what I have. And variables there of.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Short answer: No.

I've been in software design/development for 30 years. Writing something that could do that would be quite a feat. Writing the code to generate all the possibilities given just what _you_ have would be quite the undertaking. Making it completely dynamic... you'd have to lease time on a Cray to run it.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Stumpy said:


> Short answer: No.
> 
> I've been in software design/development for 30 years. Writing something that could do that would be quite a feat. Writing the code to generate all the possibilities given just what _you_ have would be quite the undertaking. Making it completely dynamic... you'd have to lease time on a Cray to run it.


Was just going to say the same thing. Not only that, but if it did exist the price would be way too high for most of us and there'd be no market.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

*OP:*

What kind of track do you have?
Sectional, of some kind?
If so, what make?
Or... will you be using flextrack?


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## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

such software might not be that difficult. It doesn't need to be graphical.

it would need a database of the materials needed for a multitude of sectional track layouts.

the user would need to input a list of all the sectional track they have (or plan to have) and the software would list the trackplans that can be built using that track, starting with an oval.

but is this really the best way to decide what layout to build? what if just one additional piece would have added another layout to the list of possibilities that would have really been good.


i suggest you pick a plan or design your own and buy a bunch of flex track to build it rather than live with the restrictions of sectional track.


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

Stumpy said:


> Short answer: No.
> 
> I've been in software design/development for 30 years. Writing something that could do that would be quite a feat. Writing the code to generate all the possibilities given just what _you_ have would be quite the undertaking. Making it completely dynamic... you'd have to lease time on a Cray to run it.


I looked around at a few and didn't see the feature set. So I'll take the short answer. Thanks.

As for the rest, I'm not sure I'd agree with that and I'll leave it at that.




J.Albert1949 said:


> *OP:*
> 
> What kind of track do you have?
> Sectional, of some kind?
> ...


I have sectional and flex of various lengths, a few brands.




gregc said:


> such software might not be that difficult. It doesn't need to be graphical.
> 
> it would need a database of the materials needed for a multitude of sectional track layouts.
> 
> ...


The data base of materials is already in all the softwares.

You're only telling it how many to use. And putting a dimensional constraint on the possible combinations and adding in some other variables to make it interesting.

The whole point of such a feature is use what you have.

I'm not talking about a simple oval. But even the pieces it takes to make a simple oval can be arranged in several possible combinations in a given space.


There's 2,598,960 possible 5 card combinations in a 52 deck of cards.

I have a lot more than 52 pieces of track.

I don't want to buy more,
I want to see the possibilities using all the track pieces in various configurations and various dimensional constraints is all.

Given at this time that feature doesn't exist in software. I have no choice but to come up with something myself.

Or write a plug-in for one of the available apps. 😉

As said, I was just curious. I wanted to see what could be done with what I had is all.

Thanks guys.
Cheers...


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

I used to work with an 'inexpensive' circuit board design software, and it had an auto-route function to layout the circuit traces. In the end I never used the auto-routed boards and just laid them out manually. That's just a general comment, not really meant to add to this conversation.

If you haven't tried any software yet, try anyrail. It has libraries of the major manufacturers stuff and it's pretty easy to use without a huge learning curve.


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## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

If you *only* wanted to search for possibilities with a fixed set of sectional track, it could be possible. But when you add in flex track, you suddenly have an infinite variety of possibilities that a computer could not calculate. And even with sectional track and a given maximum area, how would the computer know which possibilities are viable and which ones are completely ridiculous? What might look like a jumbled mess to you could be a complex industrial spur to someone else, and who is going to take the time to look through millions or even billions of possible combinations to try and find that one plan that works for them?


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

Tom_C said:


> I used to work with an 'inexpensive' circuit board design software, and it had an auto-route function to layout the circuit traces. In the end I never used the auto-routed boards and just laid them out manually. That's just a general comment, not really meant to add to this conversation.
> 
> If you haven't tried any software yet, try anyrail. It has libraries of the major manufacturers stuff and it's pretty easy to use without a huge learning curve.





Shdwdrgn said:


> If you *only* wanted to search for possibilities with a fixed set of sectional track, it could be possible. But when you add in flex track, you suddenly have an infinite variety of possibilities that a computer could not calculate. And even with sectional track and a given maximum area, how would the computer know which possibilities are viable and which ones are completely ridiculous? What might look like a jumbled mess to you could be a complex industrial spur to someone else, and who is going to take the time to look through millions or even billions of possible combinations to try and find that one plan that works for them?


I hate to say it guys but this isn't a new idea for softwares. It may be for train layout softwares but not for several other industries.

As Tom mentioned, it was in an inexpensive circuit routing app.

Autodesk Revit MEP has Auto Routing for pipe and duct work. And yes, you can input what types of parts, junctions, etc etc and various scenarios and it will auto generate optimal routing. 


Yes, the possibilities are endless.

Hence a computer generated layout(s) that can come up with those possibilities in a millisecond that you can click through is much easier than sitting down and drawing out every possible scenarios.


And let me add this.. how long would it take you to come up with just one possible solution given all the track, sectional, flex track from 36" down to 1" and everything in-between, right/left turnouts, 3-ways, crosses etc etc...

In a given area AND use every single piece?

A computer can come with thousands in a millisecond. Or even if it took a couple seconds when you click "Roll the Dice!" it's a heck of lot faster than I can come up with one.

Maybe you can do it, but I can't.

One can throw all kinds of can't do's at the idea. But others have already done it in a vast array of software apps used in other areas.

Where do you think I came up with the "Roll the Dice" button.. Lol. 
An app I use has just that. I use it all the time to get ideas.

What's cool with that app, is it shows you 9 possibles, if I like one, can choose it and roll the dice again using that particular one and it will come up with other possibilities based on that design.

And it doesn't need CRAY to do so. Heck that software had that feature 20 years ago. Running on a cheap old Pentium dual core with minimal RAM. 

It's not rocket science or a programming nightmare.. it's rather simple actually. Well.. relatively speaking.

It's the computer age guys. Has been for several decades now.

Would you rather input some numbers indicating area and inventory to use. Then click a button, and have thousands of possibilities at your fingertips..

Or break out the old engineering graphics table an gear and spend a couple months on a calculator to get one possiblity.

Or months in some track app dragging pieces around. Seriously.. you going to have a thousand plus pieces on a 24" screen trying to come up with one layout that uses them all.. that's a cluster you know what.

I know my choice.

That and I really don't want to dig out my engineering table and I wouldn't be able to see 1000 plus pieces scattered on a 24" screen. 😉


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

chase said:


> I hate to say it guys but this isn't a new idea for softwares. It may be for train layout softwares but not for several other industries.


I don't think any of us doubt that it's possible or naive enough to think other applications don't already do similar things. It's just the size of the market would probably make the software cost prohibitive.

I wasn't, and I'm sure others weren't as well, trying to pour sand in your Vaseline, so sorry if you took it the wrong way.

And, hey, if you do write the software and want to give it away for free, let me know. I'm sure it would be great.


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

Tom_C said:


> ... It's just the size of the market would probably make the software cost prohibitive.


True enough... I was taking a look at the model train market a couple days back as a whole. That's a whole 'nother thread topic just in unto itself.



Tom_C said:


> I wasn't, and I'm sure others weren't as well, trying to pour sand in your Vaseline, so sorry if you took it the wrong way.


First time I heard that saying... Lol.

No, I didn't take offense to anything if that's what you mean. But I did notice everyone trying to push.. not push but stand on the "I'd rather do by hand" old school approach. Negating the idea of a computer generated layout.

An automated random layout generator of the kind I'm referring to, or any other for that matter isn't available so.. it's all mute anyway.

You either draw it out by hand or last it out piece by piece in the software. The only two choices really.



Tom_C said:


> And, hey, if you do write the software and want to give it away for free, let me know. I'm sure it would be great.


To be honest, I really only think it would take a plug-in to existing software. Perhaps a good sized one programming wise but a plug-in none the less.

I'm sure depending on the language of the software is written for, one could produce a viable solution in a few weekends.

And many have written plugins and scripts for various softwares. Most don't charge for them. Some do, most don't. Depends.

It's not something I plan on doing. I've got enough on my plate as it is.

But, you might find some college kid or someone else into model trains to give it a go.

Everyone's on a computer these days of some sort.

You've got some of these apps that can run simulation runs around the track created. That's not something I personally would need.. but it's cool. I might use it, I might not. Some can run the operations... And some of the current market obviously wanted it.

Who knows, something like this might help increase the interest in the overall market.. it allows the modeler to go from a box of track to a layout build that much quicker.

That's part of the age of computers.. instant gratification, faster solutions. 😉

As stated previously, it was just a curiosity question anyway.

No harm, no foul.

Cheers...


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

If you ask me, that process is bass-ackwards. Your Mark 1 Mod 0 Brain should come up with a general idea of what you want to do based on the desired degree of realism, terrain features, type of operations desired, reproduction of favorite prototype locations, etc. Then the layout software just helps you pull it together.

A random jumble of track is just that. It has no purpose, no theme, no cohesion.


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

A lot of these apps created to make things easy are made to sell a product. If you have 100 thousand people who will use your app and then buy your product, then it's worth the investment. 

As you've already said, the market for this is too small, and there are too many different manufacturers that for any one company to create the app just isn't worth the cost.

I'm sure you've searched for this, but there are several layout programs available. I use anyrail and it's good for my needs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mod...7j69i60l3j0.5934j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

Tom_C said:


> A lot of these apps created to make things easy are made to sell a product. If you have 100 thousand people who will use your app and then buy your product, then it's worth the investment.
> 
> As you've already said, the market for this is too small, and there are too many different manufacturers that for any one company to create the app just isn't worth the cost.


I'm not quite following your train of thought on this one.

Most all of these model train track layout apps/softwares include track from all manufacturers. All the ones that provide the CAD file for their track anyway.

They're not trying to sell the track, they're trying to sell the software. Unless it's free of charge.

As with every piece of software I use that I can think of. It's the software the developers make money on. 

Unless it's priority, for one manufacturer of track. Or whatever. Then I could see sales generated via software for tangible goods.

Come to think of it, I think one of my 3D printer apps has an affiliate with a 3d printer house to sell you prints of what you create. 

Anyway...

But yes, I agree. The model train market share has changed from what it once was. Drastically from what I'm reading of late. 

Two manufacturers shutting down facilities. A third major one shutting down completely. That in itself speaks loudly about the market itself.

Perhaps there really no need to develop the software further than where it stands now. I don't know...? Maybe...


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

All I meant was that different apps (like the one you mention to route pipes ) likely expect you to then buy their pipe. It's neither here nor there, it all comes down to the market.


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

Tom_C said:


> All I meant was that different apps (like the one you mention to route pipes ) likely expect you to then buy their pipe. It's neither here nor there, it all comes down to the market.


Nope that's AutoDesk... 3D CAD software.
They create software. A bunch of them in fact. Nothing to do with pipe or tangables. It's based on type and industry standards, not a specific manufacturer. Not as far as I know.

But I think I see what you mean... and yeah, I agree in a sense.. kinda a symbiotic relationship in a way.

Though CAD files can be downloaded for most anything these days. They're not software dependant. They can be loaded into pretty much any 3D creation software.


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

CTValleyRR said:


> If you ask me, that process is bass-ackwards. Your Mark 1 Mod 0 Brain should come up with a general idea of what you want to do based on the desired degree of realism, terrain features, type of operations desired, reproduction of favorite prototype locations, etc. Then the layout software just helps you pull it together.
> 
> A random jumble of track is just that. It has no purpose, no theme, no cohesion.


Depends on what your creating.

From what I've seen, not everyone is going for exact replications of real life track. I've seen some pretty wild looking layouts.

My point is... 
And let's take this to the basics.

You have all the parts of an oval track. Fits on a 4x8.

What if you want to use that same track. But on a 2x6 or 3x5 or 2x4 with an upper level area of 2x2?

How many layouts can be created using the given track and those variables?

There's a number of them. 

Personally I don't think a 10 level spiral track has rhyme or reason.. but it's not my thing. Some people like a 20 level spiraling track. Some 2 level. Some 1 level.

It's a matter of variables. And possibilities.

Am I suppose to cut the wood first then discover another possibility I like better? 

All it allows is the user to enter variables and see the possibilities.

Make changes to the variables and see more possibilities

I don't know why you guys can't see this...

Anyway. I'm done.

The answer to the question is:
Yes we have no bananas. Lol...;-)
Got it.
Cheers...


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## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

My wife is an architect and I've been in IT for years, so I know who Autodeck is.  But I'm still not as smart as you.


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## DavefromMD (Jul 25, 2013)

Chase, the point you seem to be missing and was sort of mentioned by one other reply is the creativity satisfaction involved in the hobby.

I don't do things as complicated as many of these folks. I'm on the simple side.
But part of my enjoyment is seeing what I can do with what I have. I have a 4 x 8 platform, use sectional track, and have simple scenery (mainly buildings and roads) and I change layouts periodically. It's about tinkering around with what I have and coming up with a layout that will meet my requirements. I could look in books because there are a lot of layouts for 4 x 8, but those are not my ideas. The same would be true of computer generated track plans. Not my idea.

Then if you are running DC there is the challenge of deciding on how you want to block it based on your idea of operation. I suppose an app could propose suggestions, but it would be difficult unless you could input your concept of operation.

It's sort of like an artist. They have a concept of what they want to do and what they want a piece or picture to look like. The satisfaction is getting the final piece to be what they want. There would be minimal satisfaction in having a computer spit out a piece.

But if you want instant gratification without your own creativity, then write an app to do it, and more power to you. You seem to indicate you have that kind of smarts.

After all, this hobby is about what each person wants to do.


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## chase (Mar 9, 2019)

DavefromMD said:


> Chase, the point you seem to be missing and was sort of mentioned by one other reply is the creativity satisfaction involved in the hobby.
> 
> I don't do things as complicated as many of these folks. I'm on the simple side.
> But part of my enjoyment is seeing what I can do with what I have. I have a 4 x 8 platform, use sectional track, and have simple scenery (mainly buildings and roads) and I change layouts periodically. It's about tinkering around with what I have and coming up with a layout that will meet my requirements. I could look in books because there are a lot of layouts for 4 x 8, but those are not my ideas. The same would be true of computer generated track plans. Not my idea.
> ...


I understand the point you're making completely.

I was going to touch on just that but edited it out as it seems I've offended just asking the question let alone suggesting such a thing.

I have an entire blog dedicated to creativity of various media.

Creativity is almost 100% of the time based on others creativity. 

Unless you've never ever seen any other track layout, never seen anything related to model trains... Your creativity is based on what you've seen. 

It all gets mushed up in your brain, mixed in with all the other stuff you've seen and wah la! You come up with an idea! A more personal idea.

And I'm being very general in those statements. But it's the basic principals known of the creative side of the human mind. 

And as you stated about. What's more instant than downloading someone else's layout? Or building a real world existing layout?

But... Damn! How dare Chase.. (that's me 🙂... How dare he suggest a plug in that could easily do all the math, and show the millions of layout possibilities within existing track you already own, in which you can draw your own ideas from or build as is shown!? Why that's diabolical!? Evil in it's purist form!

Lol... Alright.. whatever. Sorry I asked or suggested it. Lesson learned.

Not to forget not everyone draws enjoyment from coming up with, calculating out and drawing out a layout.

Not that the hundreds of thousands of views or times existing layouts online have been viewed and/or downloaded are any indicator of such statements... Lol

Some people enjoy just coming up with layouts. True enough.

But a heck of lot, apparently don't. Or want to see other examples of possible layouts to draw inspiration from or add to an existing layout or mix of layouts.

Some people don't like coming up with a layout at all. Atlas knew this, or they wouldn't have included sample layouts 50 -60-70 years ago.

Sorry I stopped these boxes of model train stuff from making it the next ten feet into the trash. Sorry I wasted a week cleaning it up. Sorry I did the research or too time to ask questions about it.

And I'm dang sure sorry I asked the question and started this thread. That I was curious.

But thank you for the responses. It made up my mind on further involvement.

Now that's it's stopped raining here.. 
I've got some boxes to carry to the dumpster.

Cheers...


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*dual XFMR connection difficulty*

INEED SOME HELP,IDEAS:dunno:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

​


tr1 said:


> INEED SOME HELP,IDEAS:dunno:


Dude, start your own thread and tell us EXACTLY what your issue is as clearly as possible. This makes 3 threads you've tried to hijack -- you need one of your own.


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## StevieWonder787 (Apr 27, 2016)

I use AnyRail and it's easy to use and versatile.
I do wish the structure library was bigger.


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## crackymule (Nov 1, 2018)

I use RailModeler Pro. Not perfect, but it has some limited features to keep track of your stock so you only build a track with the parts you have. But it could use a lot of improvement. But overall it's the best I've been able to do on building layouts with my parts. I share the layouts I make, some are crappy, but getting better.

Check it out if interested.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Chase, we talked about autorouters as an example, but I think what you want is akin to a program that will take your list of resistors, caps, transistors, IC and diodes.... and then use them to make up a circuit. Yes it could be done, but would anyone actually use it? Is there some ideas that could be used to improve layout software, certainly, to me they are really finicky, I would rather sketch it up by hand and then let the software clean it up. Better still would be a great data base of track ideas that could be selected and then redrawn into your layout. Above all don't get discourage about all the replies. I learned long ago to never design a control and display unit -- it turns out everyone is a display engineer and you can never satisfy them all!


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