# AF reversing question



## Al S

Guys,
I recently bought a train set from 1947 complete with 8B transformer. I owned a 1951 train set when I was a kid, brand new and it had an 8B with a reset/reversing button on the transformer. This transformer does not have that button. How did American Flyer expect a user to reverse the engine without unplugging the transformer or removing a wire to the track? I know the E unit switches when power is applied to the track. I cannot find any accessory that was meant for this function. Have I missed something from that era? Any help or part number would be appreciated. I would like to keep the set in original condition if possible. I do have an intention to buy a later model 8B at some point but I cannot believe that AF did not provide some method to reverse the engine by remote control prior to adding the switch in later versions of the 8B. 
New user back from the past.
Al


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## 65446

Wasn't/isn't it with 3 rail O scale [AC] trains you quickly throw the rheostat [throttle] full on-off to reverse its poles or engine's poles ? AF is AC... So...? + What do you mean "removing a wire to the track" ? Always have to be 2 wires to track...


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## AmFlyer

What set from 1947 did you buy? I am assuming it has a universal motor with the reverse unit in the engine, and possibly a smoke unit in the tender depending upon model.
The 8B you have puts out zero volts on the 7V to 15V Post when the throttle is completely off. As it is rotated the voltage jumps from zero volts to 7V then linearly increases to 15V as the throttle is rotated fully on. The train is reversed the same as all us other kids did it, rotate the throttle quickly off then on twice to go from forward to neutral to reverse. I had a 4B and a 2 transformer, surprised they lasted 70 years with that kind of workout.
Also Gilbert trains have reverse units, Lionel used E units. They are made differently.
Get a 15B, 17B, 19B or 30B transformer. Then you can just lift up the deadman's handle to sequence the reverse unit.


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## flyernut

Flyer reverse units operate like this...forward-neutral-reverse-neutral-forward. If running in forward and you want to reverse, simply turn the throttle to "off".Now turn the throttle back on. This will put the reverse unit in "neutral"..Now turn the throttle back to off, turn it back on, and you should be in reverse.To go back to forward, just use the same sequence as before..Every-time you interrupt power to the tender, you sequence the reverse unit drum.


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## Al S

Tom,
I am looking for a #5004 which is the set my father bought when I was born. I saw this set on ebay and put in a bid on a whim. I believe this one is a #4611 New York Central freight set with a 322 locomotive, e unit in tender and smoke in engine. The loco was listed as not working and when I received it I found a few things wrong with it. The drive train was bound up and required a reset and lube. Then I looked into the reversing unit as it was obvious the owner had opened the tender as one of the wires was sticking out of the bottom. It was then that I saw the bad brushes on the unit. I have in hand a new drum and brushes that will be installed later today. I never metered the output of the transformer so I didn't know that it went to zero (near zero) volts when turned to the left. I had not even thought that could be the case. The locomotive is missing some hardware that I still need to replace. A few of the hex head bolts for the linkage are missing, the small ones. I haven't found a good source for those yet. A few of the tires on the loco have pulled apart so I have to repair those, I am looking for a better solution than gel super glue but I might just do that. As I remember, my original loco (a 342) had some rubber on the tires that were not flanged. I haven't got that far on this loco.
I also received a handcar with this set. It is pretty worn and I have ordered new brushes for that. I will have to smooth out the commutator (which is worn) to allow the new brushes to make good contact. I also bought a billboard whistle like I had with my original set. After a good lube it sounds OK but could use some new bearings I think. It was in really good shape with a mostly complete box.
I also had to open the transformer to find that the circuit breaker was bent and needed alignment. It is now working as intended. The whole set is in great shape and as advertised. It was sitting in an attic in CA for 50 years untouched. Some of the cars looks like they just came out of the box. No rust or dust. I feel very lucky for my first foray.
I have certainly learned a lot in the last few weeks. I bought this primarily to surprise my 6 year old grandson.
Thanks for your help.


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## flyernut

It's nice to see that you're willing to tackle this engine on your own.. They're easy to work on and repair once you have a little experience...Jeff Kane at the Train Tender is a excellent site to order your parts from, and he has those small hex head nuts you describe. I also have a bunch of them if you need them in a hurry. Doug Peck at PortLines is another great source for parts..As far as the white-walls ,SOP is to use super glue to repair them.. If I have the chassis bare with all wheels removed, I use JB Weld to repair the loose white-walls, but remember you'll have to re -quarter the wheel sets.The blind wheels will not have rubber traction tires on them, only the drive wheels, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am..My 342 does not have them on those blind wheels.. And before you power up the engine, make sure you add some smoke fluid to the smoke stack. You don't want to add power to a dry wick as you'll burn it up.And if all else fails, send that Hudson to me and I'll do the repairs for you, just pay for shipping. Ask my many friends here on the quality of my work.


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## AmFlyer

The 4611 set, might be a 4611A, is likely from 1948. If so there would be brass weights on the link couplers. Follow Flyernuts advice on repairing the engine. He has rebuilt more engines than all the rest of us put together. Your original 5004 set was made in 1950, 51 and 52. The 1950 and 51 sets had a 342AC engine. The 1952 set had the 5 wire 342, that is the best of the link coupler 0-8-0's. No link coupler 0-8-0's were made with traction tires and none were ever on blind wheels (no flanges.)
The 4611 set did not include a transformer, excellent condition originals are plentiful. the 5004 set did not include a transformer so the 8B you had back then was purchased separately. The 8B's with the reversing button were made in 1951 and 1952.


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## Al S

Well,
I think the 322 is ok at this point other than the loose tires. I haven't looked at the old set in years as my mom threw it away while I was in college 69-73 without asking me. My dad bought the day I was born in April 1951. I get the distinct impression this was bought at Sears or some other dept. store at the time with the transformer and billboard included. They all fit in the same box wrapped in corrugated paper. I loved that little engine. It was the only one I ever saw up close and I am sure that there were rubber tires on the engine. They were near clear in color and fit into a groove in the wheel.
I am not sure what you mean by quartering the wheels, I assume that is when you pull the wheels from the axle and need to align them with each other. I do not intend to remove them, this is simply a hobby train, not for collector. I might trade this for my original set at some point as I really liked that little Nickel Plate RR and small tender. I am right now trying to get the brushes working on the reversing unit. I was able to get the loco moving forward but it will not move backward. I bought brushes from Little Steamers and they are not exactly in line and do make a lot of friction on the drum, new also. So I am playing with it to get it just right. The solenoid looks OK but it may have a few turns shorted so it is not as strong. I am going to add some electrical silicone grease to help with the friction too. The old brushes were burned through which I think may have been the start of all the other issues. I am trying to run the engine on it's side with clips to the tender so I am not running on track yet.


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## flyernut

Al S said:


> Well,
> I think the 322 is ok at this point other than the loose tires. I haven't looked at the old set in years as my mom threw it away while I was in college 69-73 without asking me. My dad bought the day I was born in April 1951. I get the distinct impression this was bought at Sears or some other dept. store at the time with the transformer and billboard included. They all fit in the same box wrapped in corrugated paper. I loved that little engine. It was the only one I ever saw up close and I am sure that there were rubber tires on the engine. They were near clear in color and fit into a groove in the wheel.
> I am not sure what you mean by quartering the wheels, I assume that is when you pull the wheels from the axle and need to align them with each other. I do not intend to remove them, this is simply a hobby train, not for collector. I might trade this for my original set at some point as I really liked that little Nickel Plate RR and small tender. I am right now trying to get the brushes working on the reversing unit. I was able to get the loco moving forward but it will not move backward. I bought brushes from Little Steamers and they are not exactly in line and do make a lot of friction on the drum, new also. So I am playing with it to get it just right. The solenoid looks OK but it may have a few turns shorted so it is not as strong. I am going to add some electrical silicone grease to help with the friction too. The old brushes were burned through which I think may have been the start of all the other issues. I am trying to run the engine on it's side with clips to the tender so I am not running on track yet.


If you try running the tender on it's side it's not going to work right. When you replaced the fingers in the e-unit, did you bend them slightly towards the drum before installing?.(correct name for those "brushes" is "fingers"..not picking on you, it's just easier to diagnose problems when we all use the same terms..And you are correct when I said "re-quartering the wheel sets". One side of the wheel set should be 90 degrees opposite on the other side. The actual degree is 88 but 90 works fine.


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## Al S

Thanks, I should be more clear. I did bend the fingers a little. Too much the first time as the drum was not turning due to the friction. I have them aligned now but suspect that there was a wiring error that I just copied. I will have to track it down when I get more time. The engine goes in reverse but will not go forward. I cannot measure any voltage across the motor brush assy in forward although I measure voltage at the engine connector. This has me stumped as if there is a diode in line somewhere. It was obvious that someone had removed the wires at one point. Although they were mostly correct, the polarity on the field wires was backward. I corrected that with no effect. My suspicion is a wiring error in the reversing unit but I have not found a schematic only a overall drawing. I need to follow the wires from reversing unit to the engine to be sure. Oh for another day...
I have to strip the engine down as the connecting rods are pretty bent. I will remove them one at a time and straighten them. In their current state, I suspect they might rub against each other. I don't get any smoke at this point so that is somthing else that will need attention. I just want to see if I can get this running to see if my grandson is in anyway interested. If not, there is not much to keep me fixing the other things I see. I like this 322 engine as it has the same detail I remember from my 342.
Al


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## flyernut

Sounds like a typical wiring issue.. use the wiring diagram on PortLine's web-site, I've been using that one for years, and it's very easy to read.. If the linkages are bent, I suggest you check the quartering. Sounds like some has had the wheels off the chassis.


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## Al S

A comedy of errors, wiring only part of it. Fingers not mating on all sides of drum, bad solder job in cab. All better now, running in both directions.


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## flyernut

Al S said:


> A comedy of errors, wiring only part of it. Fingers not mating on all sides of drum, bad solder job in cab. All better now, running in both directions.


And you say you needed help,lol!!.. Great job...


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## Al S

Well truth be told I was a Broadcast Engineer for a PBS station in Chicago for 45 years. Fixing things was my specialty. I am now working to make things better and I find that the armature has a lot of slop so I suspect the shaft washer is worn or incorrect. So that is the next part I am looking for. I have seen some references to a fiber washer, but that does not seem right. The one in this engine is very thin and cupped a little. I find the reverse is not as fast as forward so I pressed on the back of the brush springs and the speed picked up. I think the brushes are not pushing as well in reverse because the armature is pulled away from the brushes. The brushes may be worn but they seem about right to me. I checked the wheel alignment as suggested and the wheels are very close to 90 degrees apart. The back set seems to have been pulled at one time as the shaft is not as seated as the other two pairs. It also has a lot of slop side to side. I am going to try and push the wheels on until the shaft is like the other two pairs. My suspicions is that someone tried taking the wheels apart to fix the loose tires. Then they got the quartering wrong or pulled the piston linkage out of the guides (or both) which locked up the drive train and bent the connecting rods. When nothing would move, they started to look for other reasons, starting with the reversing unit, wiring etc. In the process hardware was lost or stripped. So now that I have the engine turning both directions on the bench, I can move on to toher things.
Thanks for your help.


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## flyernut

Al S said:


> Well truth be told I was a Broadcast Engineer for a PBS station in Chicago for 45 years. Fixing things was my specialty. I am now working to make things better and I find that the armature has a lot of slop so I suspect the shaft washer is worn or incorrect. So that is the next part I am looking for. I have seen some references to a fiber washer, but that does not seem right. The one in this engine is very thin and cupped a little. I find the reverse is not as fast as forward so I pressed on the back of the brush springs and the speed picked up. I think the brushes are not pushing as well in reverse because the armature is pulled away from the brushes. The brushes may be worn but they seem about right to me. I checked the wheel alignment as suggested and the wheels are very close to 90 degrees apart. The back set seems to have been pulled at one time as the shaft is not as seated as the other two pairs. It also has a lot of slop side to side. I am going to try and push the wheels on until the shaft is like the other two pairs. My suspicions is that someone tried taking the wheels apart to fix the loose tires. Then they got the quartering wrong or pulled the piston linkage out of the guides (or both) which locked up the drive train and bent the connecting rods. When nothing would move, they started to look for other reasons, starting with the reversing unit, wiring etc. In the process hardware was lost or stripped. So now that I have the engine turning both directions on the bench, I can move on to toher things.
> Thanks for your help.


Jeff Kane has a assortment pack for those brass shims, or you can buy any number you want of any size.Get some new brushes and springs, you can get them in bulk from Jeff Kane also, alot cheaper that way. Also make sure the brass tubes that the brushes sit in a free of any funk, oil, etc. When I do any type of rebuild, I run a piece of rolled up 2000 grit paper through the tubes.. The brushes have to be able to move freely in the tube.Now about the wheels, don't go by what the other wheel sets look like as far as being on the axles, just make sure they are properly gauge, (the dime trick).. You might be correct on the quartering issue. To do a quick and dirty check, simply screw the connecting rod to the wheel sets on both sides and roll the chassis.It should roll very smoothly.


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## alaft61ri

Jeff kane is it jeffkane .com what is his web site. Thanks Al


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## flyernut

alaft61ri said:


> Jeff kane is it jeffkane .com what is his web site. Thanks Al


The Train Tender....Phone # is 585-229-2050....


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## Al S

jeffkane.com gets you a photography site. I did find www.ttender.com that appears to his site. So now the big question, what do you use to get part numbers that are used by the various vendors. I can find exploded views of this engine but none with a parts list.


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## alaft61ri

Ok didnt realize that was the train tender. Went on his website he does have the left and right crosshead assembly mailed ck today sent it out. Thanks becareful of the meds you take care of ypur self Al.


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## alaft61ri

Thanks als it funny that my name is al and last starts with s . thanks for the info

Al


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## flyernut

Al S said:


> jeffkane.com gets you a photography site. I did find www.ttender.com that appears to his site. So now the big question, what do you use to get part numbers that are used by the various vendors. I can find exploded views of this engine but none with a parts list.


Jeff is very knowledgeable, and if you explain what you need, he will probably know what you're talking about... I would buy a copy of "Complete Service Manual for American Flyer Trains" by K-Line..It has all the part numbers for all the parts you'll need, and were used by AF.


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## alaft61ri

Thanks i have the k line book i went on website he does have the crosshead left and right assembly so i mailed the money out today. I love that book. It is a life saver. Take care Al


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## Al S

Well, I thought I would catch you up on this project. I bought a smoke element kit and it took a while to clean up the smoke box and get the new parts installed and now I have smoke. I had never worked on a smoke box before and didn't realize that the wick went under the heating element. The wick on mine was completely disintegrated and didn't even look like cotton. It did come out in mostly one piece though and that made cleaning a lot easier. (I have had a lot of other projects in the fire as I mentor high school robotics and school was ending.) I got the engine running and then tackled what appeared to be dirty track. I was getting a lot of sparking from the track/wheels as the engine moved around. I cleaned with windex followed by denatured alcohol. That made things a little better. I then realized that the engine is just not running very fast at full throttle. I tried adding cars and the engine doesn;t have enough to pull them. I suspect worn brushes as I have added some washers to limit slop in the armature travel. I have a brush and spring kit on order and will add that when it arrives. The armature and the field do not appear to have any issues indicating shorted turns. (burn marks or dark insulation) I woner if there is a spec on the resistance of a good armature and field. In the meantime I cleaned the axles and contacts on the tender but that didn't really do much for speed either. There is a very slight difference in reverse and forward but not nearly what I had in the past. I also managed to repair one of the couplers that was broken and replaced the brushes on the handcar I received as well. That runs very well and fast around the track. So there is the update.


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## AmFlyer

I am not sure exactly what production date your engine is but for the first three styles of armature the resistance values are similar. Between any two commutator segments the reading should be 1.4 to 1.6 ohms. It is more important that all three readings be equal than what the exact value is. Any commutator segment to the shaft should read infinite. The field resistance should be 1.2 to 1.4 ohms.


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## flyernut

If you only clean the armature face, you're really not doing much. In all my rebuilds, I always replace the brush springs and the brushes, as well as re-facing the armature. You want to flatten the face and remove any micro-scopic grooves that are there, that will improve the performance markedly. What I do is to chuck up the armature in my drill press and run a piece of 400 grit sand-paper on the surface or face while the armature is spinning.I then finish off with 2000 grit paper to really get a nice polish and shine on the face, and don't forget to clean out those 3 slots in the face..On any repair I have done for people, they are amazed at how great their engine runs, and how fast. 1/2 throttle is about all the engine can take or it flies off the tracks in a curve.


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## mopac

Get those metal wheels on the tender shiny also. I use a copper cleaner. Its called Twinkle from
my grocery store. It eats the tarnish off and wheels look new. If you are still getting sparks its dirty wheels or dirty track.


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## Al S

OK, I took a lot of suggestions and bought some armature spacer washers, news springs and brushes. My brushes looked to be very close to the length I received but I replaced them anyway. While I had the springs off, I cleaned the solder tabs on the motor and then put in new springs. Adding the spacers reduced end play on the armature to likely 0.020" or just a little less. I used my newly acquired laser tach ( I bought it for a different project) and the speed increased a little over 200 RPM at the wheels. The discrepancy between forward and reverse is also reduced but still present. I am guessing that some of that is due to brush bias in the design. So I am pretty happy at this point. Thanks to everyone who helped. If my grandsons have the reaction I hope, maybe I will be finding and restoring the #5005 set that my father bought for me when I was born. Until then stay safe and have a fun time in this hobby.
Al


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