# Wow - new Lionel Catalog



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

I've let my sleep cycles get seriously non-synchronized with the rest of the world here and found myself up at 2 AM. I decided to look in on Lionel and there was the catalog.

Wow. I was surprised at how much is new. Two Vision Locos - GG1 and Allegheny, in various forms and types, no less. A new Lionchief loco, some new Legacy locos, mmmmmm.

Frankly I was a bit unprepared by it all. I really did not expect nearly as much new. So I am going to have to think about it a bit before jumping in. I think I will probably let all the big stuff (Vision) slide this time - I have so many big glamour locos and get so much pleasure out of the smaller and LC+. Definitely have to have the new LC+ A4 0-4-0: I have two conventional ones now and love them. It's scale (or close enough) and a sweet little loco without LC+. Ought to be a jewel with it. And a ATSF PS-1 with sound, sure. And the LC+ universal remote, or course. I'm sure I missed a lot on the first, ten -minute pass, though.

No doubt a few hours later today going through it slowly will yield the usual long list which the budget will not afford but I will order anyway. But I'll cogitate on it then. 

Impressive catalog, overall.


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## U-boat (Oct 27, 2015)

How many banks can I rob before getting caught? B&O fans should be in heaven, definitely, a 0-4-0 LC+ B&O and maybe the 0-8-0 (BTO) B&O as well. I even like the Batman phantom set.
The Lionel catalogs are deserving of several wows!


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Yep, a lot of neat and expensive stuff. I sure don't need anymore locos but will probably pop for the AT&SF vision reefers to tag along with last years PFE vision reefers.

Bill


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

There's a lot of offerings to ponder in the Signature catalog.Nothing a must have for me.The new Reading T1 is nice as well as all those 21" passenger cars. I was hoping for 21" in MOPAC to go with the Legacy PA's but eventually someone will. Well done. 

The RTR catalog is so huge with a dizzying array of bright,colorful fantasy items. It's hard for me to look through it with a straight face. It's so full of nods to today's pop culture and licensed items that I had to stop and make sure I had not wandered into Hallmark's or Danbury mint's website by accident.

I am concerned that Lionel is trying to be everything to everyone,there's a plethora of cheap,plastic,gimmicky items - most of which are items that "traditional Lionel customers" are not interested in.This is what sunk K-Line,time will tell what happens. Those "Imagineering and battery powered G gauge trains" only cheapen the Lionel brand. Some of the O27 sets are pretty goofy.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Hardly any NYC so not much jumped out at me. I did pause at the PS4 Flats with 40' trailers. Hard to read prices on my iPad but were they actually listed at $209.95? 
That will get you three Weavers from Beth.

edit: Now that I can read the price its "only" $109.95. Still not cheap. The Weaver TOFCs were one of the items Lionel acquired from Weaver. It appears they are only using their trailers and not their flats. Lionel PS-4s are the best of the 3 rail cars so maybe the price is a bit more reasonable.

Pete


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

I showed the wife what I would like. She said how much and how long I would enjoy eating Pork & Beans and cornbread?


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

LionChief Plus NYC Mikado and Lionel Lines Pacific!
Oh and a LionChief Plus Multi-Remote.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I'm going to pass on this catalog. There is nothing I need in the big stuff (I already have 3 scale GG1s) and the rolling stock is just too expensive for my taste. I'll wait until April when the MTH catalog comes out.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Bet BRIAN aka PTC is chomping at the bit on all those passenger cars? Love the UP set. Especially with the flag car!

I like the Reading T1 but I don't know about the high price?
Maybe a sensor car or two.

Real nice catalog though.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Brian must be sleeping late today-haha!

The Excursion Train is awesome and a must have for me. Lionel outdid themselves on it!

Excellent catalogs. Lionel is leading the industry as of now.


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## MOVL (Aug 23, 2015)

Some thoughts...

The UP Excursion train must be the highlight of the catalog. Looks great. I'm not in, but it is a winner.

I didn't really see anything I would order, but am mildly interested in a scale PS-1 sound car.

Lionel finally catalogued some Polar Express elves.

The scale Polar Express double-sheathed boxcar is interesting, but rather plain for its price.

The RTR catalog has a neat little Polar Express station for Christmas layouts.

Found it most interesting to see the Phantom locomotive return as LionChief with can motor. Pretty cool looking. It is however a Batman theme, but could be modified/kit bashed a little.

Though not a Vision Line offering, the Legacy Allegheny does have whistle steam, which is cool.

A bit suprised to see another Daylight locomotive.

I wonder how many will actually order 21" passenger cars in CSX paint...**nevermind, I see now it is a business train**


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

A lot of pages devoted to the GG1. 

Seems to be a lot of interesting stuff. 

New trackside gantry

Very glad to see another lionmaster even if is not one I am interested in. 

Will the T1 be popular?


Catalog is CRAPPY on an iPad. Unreadable. Surprising because they have worked well in the past.


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## MOVL (Aug 23, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> Will the T1 be popular?
> 
> 
> Catalog is CRAPPY on an iPad. Unreadable. Surprising because they have worked well in the past.


The T1 will be popular with Lionel loyalists...especially the Freedom Train. MTH just did these locomotives.

The main catalog is blurry on my iPad as well. The Ready to Run cat is fine though.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

The catalog was blurry on my lap top also. Thought it was just me.

Glad to see so many people happy, Lionel did a great job with the variety of items.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I can't zoom in on anything with the smart phone. All gets super blurry. Will check the laptop later. 

Lots of cool stuff I think. My wallet is gonna be pissed.

Always wanted a 4449 Freedom train since I was a kid. The UP Excursion cars with the flag car. Reefer sets with sound, PS1 box car with sound, the Zebra stripe switcher..... oh boy. Have to stop for now, may need to work more this year.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

seems as if they have upgraded the stationsounds diners quite a bit.


looks better on my desktop, but not great.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

Over at OGR, everyone is crying about how they do remakes in a thread about what you think is gonna be in the next catalog, I wrote that my prediction about the GS-4 in AFT Colors and SP colors and I was right. The price of the GG1 Surprised me and the Allegheny price got expensive the last time it was produced 10 years ago. Unfortunately I have spent my money in the MTH Catalogs and am saving my money to buy the Lion master Challenger, So far I am half way there. I also blame Mark over at Menard's for making the military stuff at the end of the year and had to dip into some of my Challenger Money. 

Overall the catalog looks great.


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

There are a lot of re runs - but *I'm *not crying. I already have six scale GS2's/GS4's,I have nine scale GG1's and three scale C&O Alleghenies and a VGN Blue ridge (Same engine).I have dozens upon dozens of UP passenger cars and I have the MTH Premier Reading T1. No big purchases for me this time around.I'm still digesting the catalog and there are some nice scale boxcars. I was expecting the next Vision steam loco (A NYC Niagara)in this catalog.

It just stuck me that the new Signature catalog is 167 pages and the new RTR catalog is 196 pages! pages.A lot of product to consider! On top of all the excitement I just realized I had ordered three MTH Premier Z6's a few months ago. I just stumbled on the order confirmation email. I completely forgot about it.Kinda glad there wasn't any big steam I had to have this time.


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## MOVL (Aug 23, 2015)

Looking over the catalogs a little more, I see Lionel has added scented smoke fluids to its premium line.

The Traditional sized Polar Express personalized car should be a hot seller. I also like the PE bells mint car.

The trackside cranes look cool. Basically the TMCC crane car on a base. Cool for a steel mill or junkyard setting. I might have gone for one, if I hadn't already ordered a crane and boom car and didn't already have a gantry crane.


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## batstang2000 (Oct 26, 2015)

This catalog is going to hit my bank account hard. I have an entire room devoted to Batman memorabilia so the Gotham City Phantom set is a must-have for me. The additional Justice League cars will also find their way to my (currently under construction) layout. I already have every Disney set and cars produced since and including the infamous 1977-78 set, so once again I will be ordering the Disney Christmas set and the additional Disney cars.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

"Wow, the new Lionel catalog," Lee? For me it had the opposite effect and almost put me to sleep. 

But hey, maybe that's just me.


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Lots of neat stuff in the Signature and Ready to Run catalogs. (I didn't see the Lionel Lines Alcos referred to in the letter on the inside cover of the Signature catalog -- curious about those.) Lionel is to be commended for these strong offerings -- as an O gauge hobbyist I am happy to see that breadth of choice.

That being said, one downside here is pricing continues to be very aggressive. I love the Lionmaster locos, but this N&W offering is cataloged at about $1000. Not sure what the street price is but say it will be $800-$850 (?). Last Christmas, both of my sons wanted Allegheny locos like the one they see at the B&O RR Museum. So I ordered two of the MTH PS3 Imperials from Pat's Trains for about $630 each. I am not a Lionel v. MTH type, as I think both firms offer really great products, but as a consumer it is very hard for me to rationalize the pricing difference between what are essentially the same products. Granted, the Lionel versions has whistle steam but my guess is that MTH will offer that soon and even if they do not that feature alone does not justify the price difference. Same story with the recent NS SD60Es. Again, I don't want to start a Lionel v. MTH debate -- I have lots of great products from both companies, but I am concerned at the pricing that Lionel is pushing and wondering why I should pay that when I can buy essentially the same thing from MTH. I guess if money is no object that's one thing but we're not poor and I don't like waste as a general matter.

All that aside, they are great catalogs and I will need to peruse them more carefully. The LC+ locos look fun and I may bite on one of the GG1s since I am a big fan. We'll see.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

"I have lots of great products from both companies, but I am concerned at the pricing that Lionel is pushing and wondering why I should pay that when I can buy essentially the same thing from MTH. I guess if money is no object that's one thing but we're not poor and I don't like waste as a general matter."

I agree, why pay $100 more for a Lionel SD90, when I can get the Mth today!!!

The LIONEL BTO 6-83206 INDIANA HARBOR BELT, I'll probally buy, consider mth didn't make it and I live in the area. 

I didn't see a observation car on the UP passenger set, unless it was the flat back.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

After looking again and again at the new catalog, I think just the two sensor cars. One in the 0-27 and one in O scale. Love to have a Lionel Reading T1, but I already own a Premiere MTH Reading T1 and a Premiere MTH Reading Blue Mountain T1 along with a conventional Lionel Reading T1. And at the high asking price I think I'm out. 

Question?
On the UP Excursion Set, did I miss the drumhead car? Or is it on one of the observation cars?


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm not necessarily a Batman fan, but that looked pretty interesting.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

Nothing really wowed me I think I liked the ready to run catalog better than the signature. Kind of thinking about a lion master but idk would really rather have the mth


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

Sure wish LionCHief Plus had Passenger Station Sounds


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

rboatertoo said:


> The LIONEL BTO 6-83206 INDIANA HARBOR BELT, I'll probally buy, consider mth didn't make it and I live in the area.


My daughter went to IU and always said if Lionel made an Indiana Railroad engine it would be mine. She just might have to pay up!


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

"On the UP Excursion Set, did I miss the drumhead car? Or is it on one of the observation cars?"

"I didn't see a observation car on the UP passenger set, unless it was the flat back."

Yes. Flat end dome obs


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Jeff T said:


> My daughter went to IU and always said if Lionel made an Indiana Railroad engine it would be mine. She just might have to pay up!


Mth made one, and you can order it today and get it in a day or two for $100 less.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Fabforrest said:


> "On the UP Excursion Set, did I miss the drumhead car? Or is it on one of the observation cars?"
> 
> "I didn't see a observation car on the UP passenger set, unless it was the flat back."
> 
> Yes. Flat end dome obs


Brian (PTC) wanted that set, but he hates the flat back.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2016)

Nice offerings overall, but totally out of my price range for most items.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm going to be getting a couple of the scale sound cars and probably two sensor cars. Remember, you can load the sensor cars with new info when you're running different stuff, so if you have a couple, you don't need more.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2016)

I have been tied up on a project today, so the catalog has to wait until tonight. I will post me comments as soon as i get a chance.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

You all sparked my curiosity. I'm gonna log off for a bit.
Go turn some pages. Drool, maybe. Buy, not right now.


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## CDNJ (Jun 20, 2015)

I wish they made a NJ transit F40 ..I have been looking for the MTH Premier version for along time.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

I did see in the RTR catalog that they are bringing back the Beer cars. So I guess I'll be in for them. But I didn't see my Old Milwaukee car. Hope it is in the next catalog? Lionel was suppose to have ran them a few years back and because of some people complaining they didn't run the OL Mil car. Now in the RTR catalog it says must be 21 to order.


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## RonthePirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Saw those beer cars! The nicest "boxcars" they have.

When I went to look at that catalog, apparently the entire Western hemisphere was
also looking at it.
Pages would not turn for 10-15 minutes at at time.
And I have 0 MB/s download service.
They musty have been loaded!


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## Kmac (Sep 19, 2015)

I've looked through the the catalogs several times today and I have to say there is a lot of cool stuff. I think a lot of people should be very happy. As for me I am not sure if I will order anything. All the LC+ A5s were nice and if any one thing called my name it was them. I am also excited to see what the VL GG1 will be like when it arrives as well as the Allegheny. 

Keaton.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

*Pretty sure I'm going to order:*

UP Excursion Passenger Set

*I'm on the fence to order:*

Amtrak Passenger Set
Penn Central Passenger Set
Vision Line PRR GG1 Tuscan 5 Stripe
A couple PS-1 Sound Box Cars
Vision Line Santa Fe Reefer Set

*Really wish they made:*

Amtrak scale Amfleet Passenger Cars
Vision Line Penn Central "Black Jack" GG1
Amtrak Viewliner Sleeper & Diner
Amtrak Acela 
Amtrak Cities Sprinter ACS-64
*Strasburg Railroad scale Steam Locomotives*
Metroliners


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm surprised nobody has made the Strasburg RR stuff, that seems a natural.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

3RD Rail made the Strasburg #475 4-8-0 Mollies a year or two ago, but it slipped through my pre-order cracks. It is a beautiful model but after delivery they are impossible to find.


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## mark d (Mar 11, 2012)

I'm kind of disappointed with the new catalogs. I expected more with LionChief diesels, I just didn't see enough to spark my interest. I hope one day Lionel will do away with the LionChief engines in their sets and replace them with only LionChief Plus instead. I don't see the necessity of having two LionChief engines, when one LionChief Plus would do nicely. I'll wait for next catalog to come out in the fall.


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## Robbie (Nov 5, 2015)

Hi everyone, I took a quick look through them this morning during a work break. I spent more time this evening reviewing it. Wow! I'm really impressed. The Milwaukee H16-44 would be a nice addition to my roster. Also, a second set of PFE Vision sound reefers with new road numbers would be a nice add to my Big Boy. Finally, the Chicago Northwestern PS-1 box car with sounds. I'm looking forward getting a paper copy before I place orders. 

I may still reserve a another item. We sure have much to chat about, and I'm glad I moved over to this forum.


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## Agent027 (Sep 7, 2015)

> The RTR catalog is so huge with a dizzying array of bright,colorful fantasy items. It's hard for me to look through it with a straight face. It's so full of nods to today's pop culture and licensed items that I had to stop and make sure I had not wandered into Hallmark's or Danbury mint's website by accident.
> 
> I am concerned that Lionel is trying to be everything to everyone,there's a plethora of cheap,plastic,gimmicky items - most of which are items that "traditional Lionel customers" are not interested in.This is what sunk K-Line,time will tell what happens. Those "Imagineering and battery powered G gauge trains" only cheapen the Lionel brand. Some of the O27 sets are pretty goofy.


A correction. What did K-Line in, aside from the lawsuit and legal problems, was cash flow. They had a $5 million debt and $3.8 of it was with Sanda Kan, their Chinese contractor. And that was from too much new costly SCALE tooling on the HIGH end, without the anticipated sales and revenue from these products. Many of the "gimmicky" things K-Line offered towards the end, like the 1:43 vehicles and the Husky line trains, were relabeled / repackaged items from existing products with no added R&D costs to them.

K-Line as a competitor, was not in the position to match Lionel in their prices - or they probably would have. Same goes for MTH. Lionel is the name in this hobby. So Lionel is in a better position to raise prices across the entire product line to help offset the new high end product line R&D - which they ARE doing.

Even though I didn't notice any dramatic price increases this year in the R-T-R catalog, $50-$85 MSRP for a traditional piece of rolling stock (where the tooling has LONG been paid for) is way too much. As a "traditional Lionel customer" I see things I'd like - BUT not at these prices. Thank you, but I have to stick to the used secondary market. 

Hopefully for Lionel, I do not speak for all traditional market buyers. But I have a sneaking suspicion I am speaking for many.

From previous statements from Lionel, they are making a serious attempt to extend their market share with young people who don't even know what Lionel is... which helps explain all the licensed items in the R-T-R catalog. As of two years ago, the Imagineering and battery powered G gauge trains were a $5-6 million dollar wholesale source of income for Lionel. Whether we all agree with the products or not, that a huge source of revenue for them.

Same thing for the NASCAR products, which many in the train hobby bemoan. But the NASCAR connection has given Lionel much more clout in China with their contractors, which actually benefits the train side of the business.

I don't claim to know every nuance of this hobby. But I find the business side of the hobby to be far more interesting and COMPLEX than many people in the train hobby want to know about or even acknowledge. It's much easier to write lists of all the products people want Lionel to make right now, than to understand there's probably good financial reason why some products are not being made... AND why others ARE being made.


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I had a chance to digest all of the catalogs yesterday. In my opinion, you can really see Mike Reagan's hands on this and a great job done by their marketing department. Howard appears to have hired great people to bring this all together and all together quite well.

Agent027, I also find the business side of things interesting as I know nothing about manufacturing. There is a guy who posts on here once in awhile, Rocky Mountaineer, who seems to have a good historical perspective on this side of the business. 

Like anything, the nicer the nice, the higher the price. I always tell people getting in the hobby to do what you enjoy and that goes for manufacturers as well. If you like Lionel, buy Lionel, if you like MTH, buy them and the list goes on, albeit a smaller list of manufacturers these days. There are just so many options for anyone interested in O gauge. 

A buddy of mine who recently retired from the BBC worked in product licensing. He has looked at the catalogs and his basic comment about this subject was Lionel is writing some sizable checks for this purpose. Disney is not cheap, obviously, but Lionel's projections and market research must tell them it will be profitable. I think it is great. If some kid finds one of those sets interesting, hopefully, it will start him or her on this hobby.

For me, I was hoping for a Niagara, but the Allegheny is certainly very nice. The GS-4 Daylights with the whistle steam effect are very cool. I'm anxious to see these new 21 inch passengers cars.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Not much for me. Love the UP passenger cars but that is about it.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

Having looked at the catalog several times now and there's more that jumps out at me. The first time through is always a blurrrrr, just gazing like a 10 year old.

I watched the Erics Trains video on the Vision Line cars and all I can say is those were made for my bride, she loves all that stuff. As for me, I don't know why but I do like the H16's for all their simplicity. The zebra strip SF could be the one I buy. 

I had a TMCC NH H16 and just loved it. Maybe time for a Legacy version.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Today I downloaded the Ready to Run Catalog. I have to say I am more than impressed by how much product Lionel has to offer. I would love to see their paint and decorating shop. I have no idea how they print the collector cars with the near photo images. 

That said they need to have a heart to heart with their IT guys and straighten out their web pages. The catalog was impossible to find on my tablet and only by luck did I find it on my desktop. I never had any problem finding stuff on their old website.

Pete


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

Agent027 said:


> A correction. What did K-Line in, aside from the lawsuit and legal problems, was cash flow. They had a $5 million debt and $3.8 of it was with Sanda Kan, their Chinese contractor. And that was from too much new costly SCALE tooling on the HIGH end, without the anticipated sales and revenue from these products. Many of the "gimmicky" things K-Line offered towards the end, like the 1:43 vehicles and the Husky line trains, were relabeled / repackaged items from existing products with no added R&D costs to them.
> 
> K-Line as a competitor, was not in the position to match Lionel in their prices - or they probably would have. Same goes for MTH. Lionel is the name in this hobby. So Lionel is in a better position to raise prices across the entire product line to help offset the new high end product line R&D - which they ARE doing.
> 
> ...


Exactly-K was trying to satisfy ALL the segments of the market in a reckless way. The High and the Low end and it bit them in the rear at the end.Add to that the lawsuits and it was a "perfect storm" . I had a good conversation with Nick Ladd and he agreed that the S gauge line,the husky line and the battery trains had been a bad move.Face it,this hobby is not as popular as it was no matter what we all do to promote it.In 20-25 years the hobby demographics will be completely different and I seriously doubt the O gauge model railroad scene will be anything like it is now.It will go they way of stamp and coin collecting.Sure,it will be around but not very visible to the general public. I see another shake up in the industry in the next few years. We'll see.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I wonder if the K-line and Lionel lawsuit hadn't taken place would K-line still be here? 5m in debt could have been the cost of the suit. The lawyers always get their money first!!!


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

rboatertoo said:


> I wonder if the K-line and Lionel lawsuit hadn't taken place would K-line still be here? 5m in debt could have been the cost of the suit. The lawyers always get their money first!!!


I wonder too. Remember the crazy low prices on scale steam engines? I wondered how they could sell those so cheap it at the time. I bought a LOT of K-Line scale locomotives, 18" passenger cars and rolling stock back in the day. I've been unpacking trains I bought and put in storage 10-15 years ago,the passenger sets are so beautiful and I am so glad I did.


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## Fabforrest (Aug 31, 2015)

"I bought a LOT of K-Line scale locomotives, 18" passenger cars and rolling stock back in the day. I've been unpacking trains I bought and put in storage 10-15 years ago,the passenger sets are so beautiful and I am so glad I did.
__________________"

smart move on the passenger cars!!!:appl:


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

rboatertoo said:


> I wonder if the K-line and Lionel lawsuit hadn't taken place would K-line still be here? 5m in debt could have been the cost of the suit. The lawyers always get their money first!!!


Well, they may have been around for a bit longer. Lionel and K-Line actually had a settlement to Lionel's lawsuit for theft of trade secrets that would have kept K-Line operating and out of bankruptcy….. temporally at least.

But after the settlement, K-Line issued a statement first, which was completely contrary to what Lionel had agreed to. The word was that Maury Kline refused to cave to Lionel. Lionel then proceeded to reinstate the lawsuit which, along with their debt to Sanda Kan and other suppliers, caused K-Line to go bankrupt.

Lionel then entered into a licensing agreement with Sanda Kan, who also made some Lionel products, to use the tooling from some of the K-Line products which resulted into the short-lived _"K-Line By Lionel"_ brand.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

I was listening to the "Notch six" catalog pod cast yesterday and they said that Lionel was using on of k-lines casting for a product in the catalog. I was driving so I didn't have a chance to write it down.


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## rboatertoo (Aug 5, 2015)

Here is the link to the podcast, I have met Derick and he is in tight with Lionel. 

http://69.195.124.114/~notchsix/201...-lionel-trains-2016-volume-1-catalog-special/


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Ricky Tanner said:


> ... Remember the crazy low prices on scale steam engines? I wondered how they could sell those so cheap it at the time. ...


They sold them that cheaply because they weren't carrying the overhead and profit margin that Lionel built into its pricing model. I don't think we want to know the REAL cost of these items to Lionel, but it probably wasn't _that_ different than what K-Line was paying -- yet Lionel was hitting the toy train enthusiast with a much higher price-tag.  I mentioned this the other day over on OGR, and I'll say it here too: We'd all be in serious therapy if we knew what Lionel pays the Chinese factory for any given item -- especially the new steamers that dealers are selling for $1350-$1450. Very serious therapy. 

David


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## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

David, I agree. Major Therapy. Good to see you posting over here. I try and keep tabs on you on the other site as well. Good info. Please post over here more.


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Todd Lopes said:


> David, I agree. Major Therapy. Good to see you posting over here. I try and keep tabs on you on the other site as well. Good info. Please post over here more.


Agree -- also enjoy your commentary, although I am an infrequent visitor to that forum and cancelled my subscription as well.


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## AndyH (Sep 21, 2015)

Rocky Mountaineer said:


> We'd all be in serious therapy if we knew what Lionel pays the Chinese factory for any given item -- especially the new steamers that dealers are selling for $1350-$1450. Very serious therapy.


I agree with this, but only in the sense that there are a lot of people who would look at the difference in the price paid by Lionel to the factories versus the price they paid for the items and not stop to think that this difference is where Lionel gets the funds to pay for the invisible costs of doing business. Things like:


The salaries and benefits of all the people who work for Lionel doing all the things we never get to see (designing the trains, putting the catalog together, artwork, photography, shipping and receiving, repair, marketing, answering phones, maintaining the electronic media, maintaining the buildings, dealing with all of the vairous laws and regulations, dealing with importing logistics - I could go on and on with all the manpower needed in business today).
The costs of having and maintaining physical locations (electricity, water, heat, AC, sewage, phones, internet, office supplies, cleaning supplies, and taxes, just to name a few).
Misc. costs such as insurance, doing WGH Shows and York Meets (transportation, meals, lodging, labor in setting up and tearing down displays, etc.).
Planned expenses like expansion, R&D and new tooling. This is a biggie. Everyone wants new tooling this and new tooling that, but does anyone stop to think how this is paid for? Engineers, designers and technicians don't come cheap, not to mention the research involved. And tooling is not cheap, either. And in order for a company to grow (and employ more people in the priocess), they need to expand the product line and sometimes facilities such as offices and warehouses.
Unplanned expenses - crashed tooling, sunken cargo ships, fires, theft, suppliers going out of business or unexpectedly changing terms, lawsuits, etc. Insurance may cover some of these expenses, but rarely do they cover 100% of the expense. These are usually the types of things that destroy a business that is operating at break-even or on a too-small profit margin.

These are just a sampling of the many things that have to be covered in the cost-v-price difference in order for a business to remain in business. Everyone would like prices to come down, but in order for that to happen, the cost of doing business has to be reduced, and there are few places where that can happen without employees suffering, a reduction in quality or stagnation in the form of no new products or company growth.

Andy


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I hope to spend more time here in 2016.

Andy, everything you said is true. Nobody will argue that. The real issue though centers around the importer's overall *value proposition*. What are _THEY_ bringing to the table? And at what price point? 

Businesses are quick to give consumers a laundry list of their "expenses" to defend their retail prices. But if somebody else can deliver goods-and-services of similar quality at lower costs more efficiently, then it's not our job as consumers to subsidize inefficient -- or dare I say profit-hungry -- businesses riding on past "brand loyalty". The executive team running Lionel today has little if anything to do with the Lionel that many of us grew up with in the 1950's and 1960's... which is a big reason why I view many of these recent price increases with a bit of scrutiny. 

At the end of the day, the prices are what they are. And we all decide how we want to spend our discretionary dollars. It's human nature to feel comfortable with a given importer over time. And sometimes we just become complacent and order items at whatever the published prices are "just because". OTOH, K-Line provided a refreshing alternative to toy train enthusiasts in its heyday. And their eye-catching prices made us all do a few double-takes in comparison to Lionel's prices for the same type offering. It's a strategy that has worked very well in other businesses too -- not just toy trains. So that wasn't necessarily what undermined K-Line. There were other factors in play that caused the company's ultimate demise.

Modern-day examples of good alternative, low-priced importers that bring an eye-catching value proposition to the marketplace include Menards and most recently O-Line Reproductions. Time will tell how these providers survive in the long run. Other importers like Atlas-O and Sunset/GGD are also great alternative providers of quality product to model train enthusiasts, and those companies are admittedly steering their offerings to affluent buyers who like precise, scale-size trains. For the most part, those buyers seem to think the products are well worth the premium price tags. So their value proposition isn't brought into question as often as Lionel's. And of course, we'd be remiss to not mention MTH here, since they provide a breadth of product offering which is very much on par with Lionel's, if not more so when we look at its growing HO and Standard Gauge line of toy trains. It's good to see MTH ramping up its O-Gauge steam production again for the U.S. market. But you'd never know it by the prices Lionel has placed on its newest steam locomotives!  When MTH further implements whistle-steam in their O-Gauge Premier-Line steam locomotives (beyond their recent Big Boy), Lionel will be on borrowed time with their unchecked prices. 

David


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