# Coupler Height Variation



## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

I am beginning to think every thing I touch that has to do with model railroad goes to****, never mind.
Today I was lucky enough to receive a new GP7 locomotive. Hooked up my rolling stock, (21 cars), and let it run. No problems for a while, then I moved up some box cars, 3 cars that I bought new a month ago.
The train would go 3/4 of the way around then the loco would de couple from the new cars. Looking closer, the coupler heights are not lined up. The loco coupler is low. Both the loco and the cars are from Bachman. Why would they have mismatched coupler heights? This seems bizarre.
Now looking at my other two locos Bachman S-2 and a 2-6-0 They have couplers at the same height as the GP7, but I do not have trouble with them de coupling.
No big problem, just puzzling. When I put a gondola car, (Bachman), between the GP7 and the boxcars no problems. The gondola car coupler matches the GP7.


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## J.C. (Dec 24, 2016)

what brand of coupler in on loco kadee makes a lot of different coupler heights you might need to change them out for a different one's , also I recommended you getting a coupler height gauge from them.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Those Bachmann couplers will drive you nuts.

The best you can do is replace them with Kadees.
But you may have to use the overset model with
a Short shank. j

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

J.C. said:


> what brand of coupler in on loco kadee makes a lot of different coupler heights you might need to change them out for a different one's , also I recommended you getting a coupler height gauge from them.


I'll second that. There's no point in worrying about couplers until you purchase and use a height gauge. You really want all your couplers at the SAME height, but not only that, the RIGHT height. That's the most likely height for the couplers on a new acquisition anyway. You don't know for sure that the loco coupler is low unless you check.

And FWIW, you didn't cause that problem, unless you replaced the OEM couplers.


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## robz (Feb 8, 2017)

Both the cars & the loco have the original couplers. What is puzzling to me, is that brand new equipment from the same manufacture, (Bachman), would have different heights right out of the box. I'd think there would be a standard, at least from the same manufacture.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

There is a standard, but it's cheaper not to test and repair against a standard. This gives you the pleasure of doing all that work of correcting the problem for them for free.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Definitely get a coupler gauge tool. I learned the best thing is to check right out of the box. Both the height of the coupler and wheel gauge. Your also probably going to want to order some Kadee truck shims, 10 & 15 thousand thickness.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Lemonhawk said:


> There is a standard, but it's cheaper not to test and repair against a standard. This gives you the pleasure of doing all that work of correcting the problem for them for free.


Maybe a little too cynical, but accurate.

There is a standard, otherwise their couldn't be a gauge to measure it.

Some manufacturers are better than others about manufacturing to standards, but I think I've had a sample from pretty much every manufacturer having something out of spec (coupler height or wheel gauge). I always check. I've learned never to trust a new model.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Speaking of Bachmann, I have two new cars with coupler height problems. I need to lower the couplers but when I shim them I can not tighten the coupler cover without binding up the coupler. The coupler box is molded to the car body. What or how do I fix this?? Thanks in advance.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Maybe a little too cynical, but accurate.
> 
> There is a standard, otherwise their couldn't be a gauge to measure it.
> 
> Some manufacturers are better than others about manufacturing to standards, but I think I've had a sample from pretty much every manufacturer having something out of spec (coupler height or wheel gauge). I always check. I've learned never to trust a new model.


Makes me wonder how receptive we the public would be if our new automobiles had mismatched wheels, or if valves weren't adjusted to manufacturer standards. What about if all TVs showed a 36"-sized picture, no matter how large the screen? I'm sure we'd stop buying crap like that pretty quickly! 

So why do we continue to buy mismatched stuff from model train makers? Why don't we send letters to them demanding that they fix what's wrong, or we'll stop buying immediately? :smilie_daumenneg:

I have what I need for motive power and rolling stock. A manufacturer is going to have to go out of HIS way to sell me something else that I may want but not need. THEY are going to have to give me what I want, not what they want me to have.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Adjusting coupler height*



jlc41 said:


> Speaking of Bachmann, I have two new cars with coupler height problems. I need to lower the couplers but when I shim them I can not tighten the coupler cover without binding up the coupler. The coupler box is molded to the car body. What or how do I fix this?? Thanks in advance.


jlc41;

There are a couple of ways to lower the couplers. First, and best, would be to cut off the molded-on coupler box, and replace the box, coupler, and cover; with Kaydees. If you don't want to do that then the box, not just the coupler, needs to be lowered. Since the Bachman coupler box is molded to the car's floor, you would need to lower the floor, and the entire car. This can be done by cutting away some material from the "bolsters." These are the cross-car beams that the trucks are attached to. Timing the bolsters, and maybe the tops of the truck centers too, will lower the car. However trimming them too much will let the wheels rub against the bottom of the car. You will need to look and measure carefully to see if the car can be lowered enough to cure the coupler height problem, without letting the wheels rub.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> Makes me wonder how receptive we the public would be if our new automobiles had mismatched wheels, or if valves weren't adjusted to manufacturer standards. What about if all TVs showed a 36"-sized picture, no matter how large the screen? I'm sure we'd stop buying crap like that pretty quickly!
> 
> So why do we continue to buy mismatched stuff from model train makers? Why don't we send letters to them demanding that they fix what's wrong, or we'll stop buying immediately? :smilie_daumenneg:
> 
> I have what I need for motive power and rolling stock. A manufacturer is going to have to go out of HIS way to sell me something else that I may want but not need. THEY are going to have to give me what I want, not what they want me to have.


So new cars, TV's and other things never need warranty work because something doesn't work quite right from the git-go? Everyone makes an occasional dog.

If you're going to refuse to buy things because we might get a defective one, you're going to be living like a hermit in a cave.

That said, if one manufacturer consistently produces junk, then I don't buy from them, but I haven't seen one of those lately (Bachmann used to be that way, but has stepped up to the plate in the last 5 years or so). And yeah, if I pick up something crappy, I usually let the manufacturer know about it.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

jlc41 said:


> Speaking of Bachmann, I have two new cars with coupler height problems. I need to lower the couplers but when I shim them I can not tighten the coupler cover without binding up the coupler. The coupler box is molded to the car body. What or how do I fix this?? Thanks in advance.


You never want to shim INSIDE the coupler box.

You want to lower the height of the car -- the best way is to trim the trucks down.

For a little more work, you can cut off the coupler boxes and mount your own at the correct height.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

jlc41 said:


> Speaking of Bachmann, I have two new cars with coupler height problems. I need to lower the couplers but when I shim them I can not tighten the coupler cover without binding up the coupler. The coupler box is molded to the car body. What or how do I fix this?? Thanks in advance.


The regular Kadee #5 or 148 are center set.
Kadee has both overset and underset couplers. I've
had to use both from time to time. The knuckles
are either higher or lower than the coupler shank
thus can put the car in vertical alignment.

It appears you need the under set. The draft
box stays as is and the lower knuckle does the job.

Don


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> Some manufacturers are better than others about manufacturing to standards, but I think I've had a sample from pretty much every manufacturer having something out of spec (coupler height or wheel gauge). I always check. I've learned never to trust a new model.


So it sounds like this is a pretty common problem...Am I wrong? :dunno:


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

DonR said:


> Kadee has both overset and underset couplers. I've
> had to use both from time to time. The knuckles
> are either higher or lower than the coupler shank
> thus can put the car in vertical alignment.
> ...


So why do the manufacturers make "repair" pieces instead of making things correctly in the first place?


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## Redrider (Apr 19, 2017)

I have a question about the couplers on lionel rolling stock. My old 1973 couplers are supposed to open and close manually, but I don't want to break them so I just pick the car up and set it down coupling it to the car in front of it. Some of the cars I just bought, well, all of them, have a lever or something that springs the coupler open, then you close it the way a train does. You push the one into the other and the striking of one to the other springs it closed. How do you make the lever work to open the coupler.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Fire21 said:


> So why do the manufacturers make "repair" pieces instead of making things correctly in the first place?


KaDee makes "repair" parts to fix problems in cars made by OTHER companies.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> So why do the manufacturers make "repair" pieces instead of making things correctly in the first place?


Do we really want to get into this here?

Short answer is cost. The additional effort required to upgrade tooling and quality checks to avoid having some % of defective merchandise is not considered cost effective by the manufacturers.

My company makes nuclear submarines. We still can't manage 100% defect free. But we make sure there aren't any in the critical systems (life, property, and nuclear)... and that drives up cost HUGELY.

Bottom line: consumers want quality but aren't willing to pay for it. So we get what we pay for.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

Okay guy's I fixed the problem. I cut a piece of 3/16 i.d. tubing to fit over the pin that the truck screws into. I cut it .030 taller than the pin height slipped my shims over the tube and made a spacer gasket for the box cover to allow the cover to be tightened without clamping the coupler down. Works like a charm. Thanks for all the responses.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Fire21

Yours is a proper question as to why manufacturers
don't make it 'right' in the first place.

Most try to, in my opinion, but some fail in their
efforts. Costs and royalties must be factored in
also.

In the case of couplers, Kadee has long been the
quality leader. Other makers wanted in on the sales.
Patents required they not infringe on Kadee designs so
they had to create their own. Loco manufacturers,
such as Bachmann, get the couplers they use at
a lower price than they could from Kadee, thus
a 'less than right' product. As we have experience
with some of those we note that they are less than
perfect. That's when some of us go back to Kadee 
and replace those imperfect couplers. 

It's the way commerce is, and not just hobby products.

Don


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

I am also experiencing coupler problems, with both brand new equipment and rolling stock I worked on myself.

How to lower couplers has been nicely explained. How do I raise a coupler (like in the original photo the OP posted)?

Mike


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

If you're talking about the locomotive, the best way is to get a Kadee height gauge, determine the offset you need, and install the correct Kadee coupler. This a common problem and has been for decades.

On freight cars you can install the correct offset couplers or add bolster shims between the trucks and the car floor to raise them


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Just to amplify on Time Warps suggestion:

Kadee makes a wide variety of couplers so there
is one for every situation.

The typical 148 or 5 Kadee has the knuckle 
centered on the shank. The 148 uses whisker
wires for centering, the 5 uses a brass box with
side springs.

You can also get a Kadee with the knuckle under
the shank. This is to lower the coupler on a loco
or car.

There are Kadees with the knuckle over the
shank to raise the coupler.

In addition you can get Kadees as the above but
with shorter or longer shanks. These are used
to more closely couple locos and cars while
the longer shanks can be used where you have
tight radius curves.

Don


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

There you go. Thanks Don


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks DonR and Timewarp. I've been using Kadee 5, I'll buy some more (and the Coupler Gouge) and check my rolling stock / power.

Mike


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

MikeL said:


> Thanks DonR and Timewarp. I've been using Kadee 5, I'll buy some more (and the Coupler Gouge) and check my rolling stock / power.
> 
> Mike


As a few of us said at the beginning of the thread, the height gauge is an indispensable tool. Before you start monkeying around with coupler heights, you have to know which ones are accurate and which ones are too high / too low. 

If you don't want to use offset shanks on your couplers, the best way to fix a coupler that is too low is to shim the whole car up on the truck(s).


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

DonR said:


> Those Bachmann couplers will drive you nuts.
> 
> The best you can do is replace them with Kadees.
> But you may have to use the overset model with
> ...


Is this problem unique to Bachmann?


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Gramps

Some have had few problems with the knuckle
couplers Bachmann uses. I find them troublesome.
The knuckles are slightly larger than Kadees, their
action is somewhat more sluggish. They just don't
mate up with Kadees as we like.

There are other coupler makes on the market but
Kadee is the leader, and many of us consider them
by far the best. Plus, they have a model to satisfy
just about any odd coupler situation.

Don


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

My understanding is Kadee is a replacement coupler. As an out of the box purchase, Bachmann was the only manufacturer mentioned in the thread. No other company was complained about. I have Walthers cars and have not had a problem. I was also wondering if coupling 2 different manufacturer's cars together could be a problem with coupler height.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Couplers misaligned vertically will be troublesome
regardless of who made them. The 
height of body mount couplers is pretty standard
but you will find one off enough to cause problems
from time to time. 

Don


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

There is an NMRA standard for coupler height. That's why EVERY model Railroader should have an NMRA standards gauge. The Kadee spec and their coupler height gauge conform to the standard, therefore every piece of equipment will be correct if maintained to that same standard.


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## jlc41 (Feb 16, 2016)

When ever I get a new piece of rolling stock it goes on the track and the Kadee guage is used to check the coupler height and trip pin clearence. I have had a couple of coupler and trip pins that needed adjusting.


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## MikeL (Mar 21, 2015)

I bought my Kadee Coupler Gauge and the oval shims and have already fixed a couple of pieces of rolling stock - thanks again!

A few couplers don't hook up properly with the gauge but do hook up with other cars. Is it possible the Kadee gauge works best / only with Kadee couplers?

Do you recommend using the same coupler manufacturer for all rolling stock / power? 

Mike


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

jlc41 said:


> When ever I get a new piece of rolling stock it goes on the track and the Kadee guage is used to check the coupler height and trip pin clearence. I have had a couple of coupler and trip pins that needed adjusting.


 That's the right way to do it, Joe.:thumbsup:



MikeL said:


> I bought my Kadee Coupler Gauge and the oval shims and have already fixed a couple of pieces of rolling stock - thanks again!
> 
> A few couplers don't hook up properly with the gauge but do hook up with other cars. Is it possible the Kadee gauge works best / only with Kadee couplers?
> 
> ...


 If they won't couple properly you'll have problems down the line. It is best if everything works together, that is the whole point of this discussion.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

I'd go on a case by case basis at first.

If you have cars with non Kadee couplers and
you are satisfied with the way they mate
with your Kadees I'd leave them alone. But
when you have random uncoupling or failing
to uncouple easily on demand I'd go with
Kadee replacements. 

The Kadee alignment tool is a standard. If
it shows a coupler, regardless of who made it,
too high or too low that coupler needs to be
re-aligned or replaced.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Gramps said:


> My understanding is Kadee is a replacement coupler. As an out of the box purchase, Bachmann was the only manufacturer mentioned in the thread. No other company was complained about. I have Walthers cars and have not had a problem. I was also wondering if coupling 2 different manufacturer's cars together could be a problem with coupler height.


Some manufacturer's products come equipped with genuine Kadees. Walthers stuff comes with their Protomaxx couplers, which are as good as Kadees (although they don't make as many varieties).

Some other stuff comes with real junk. Athearn equipment comes with McHenry couplers (which I really don't like), because both are Horizon Hobbies brands. Bachmann comes with their Accumate couplerd, which are hit or miss.

But no, all rolling stock should have their couplers at the standard height, regardless of who made it. That's why it's a standard.


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

CTValleyRR said:


> But no, all rolling stock should have their couplers at the standard height, regardless of who made it. That's why it's a standard.


A hundred years ago garden hose manufacturers got together and decided on a standard coupling. Why don't model railroad manufacturers follow standards? Why do we have a standard if the builders aren't going to follow it? Imagine how architecture would be if the builders didn't follow codes and standards!

An even better question is, why do we as buyers allow them to do this to us?


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

CTValleyRR said:


> Some manufacturer's products come equipped with genuine Kadees. Walthers stuff comes with their Protomaxx couplers, which are as good as Kadees (although they don't make as many varieties).
> 
> Some other stuff comes with real junk. Athearn equipment comes with McHenry couplers (which I really don't like), because both are Horizon Hobbies brands. Bachmann comes with their Accumate couplerd, which are hit or miss.
> 
> But no, all rolling stock should have their couplers at the standard height, regardless of who made it. That's why it's a standard.


Good information, thanks.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> A hundred years ago garden hose manufacturers got together and decided on a standard coupling. Why don't model railroad manufacturers follow standards? Why do we have a standard if the builders aren't going to follow it? Imagine how architecture would be if the builders didn't follow codes and standards!
> 
> An even better question is, why do we as buyers allow them to do this to us?


I don't think there are too many examples of model railroad equipment that is designed out of spec. I think there is enough variation in manufacture and assembly that many of them end up out of spec.

If I found a manufacturer whose products were consistently non-conforming, I WOULD stop buying them.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

All things considered, it all works pretty well. Years ago, the Athearn "Blue Box" locomotives were the de facto standard, and some of them wouldn't conform to each other. So it goes.


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