# Newbie to DCC, which turnouts: insulated, or electrified frogs?



## EBrown (5 mo ago)

Basically, the title says it all.

From what I've read, there are ways to "switch" the electrical polarity on the frog with the turnout switch, is this the route I should go for DCC-loco's? I'm planning on only running diesel's for the most part, but I don't want to buy $250 in insulated turnouts if the "right" answer is electrified frogs with the polarity switch.

I'm referring to the PECO SL vs. SLE turnouts. SL-388/389, and SL-395/396 are my current list, but if I need to use the SLE versions with switched contacts I will. Just trying to get an answer for what will perform best.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I use all SL395 and SL396 (I do have one curved turnout too). The simplest way to ensure you have zero problems with DCC wiring (or even DC) is to run a power feeder to the tracks on all three sides of the turnout. I also gap the frog rails, which isn't always necessary, but there are instances where it IS necessary. And if you always gap the frog rails, then you will never have a problem with polarity/phase conflicts as long as you also use an auto reverse module to handle reverse loops.

Most people will tell you it is good practice to run a power feeder about every 6-10 feet of track. So when I put together a plan for power feeders, I started by making sure I hade at least one power drop between turnouts, and added more if the length of track between turnouts was greater than 6-10 feet. Here's a couple drafts of my power feeder scheme so you can get a visual.

Green track is ground level. Blue track is up in the mountains. Red dots are power feeders. Blue dots are power feeders from the AR module. The gaps I called out are to isolate the area controlled by the AR module. You may find it interesting that I have 2 huge reverse loops due to the 2 wyes at either end of lower bridge, but I can keep things in phase by using one AR module to control the connector between the two areas. What I didn't mark on the diagram is that every frog rail is gapped.

Whenever you have a triangle, or a passing siding, you CAN get a short if you don't throw 2 or more turnouts concurrently. The power routing feature of the turnouts can work against you in these scenarios.










You are asking all the right questions. Based on your questions, I'd say you are going to be a successful model railroader.

The good news, is that I figured all that out on my own, which basically means I ran into a lot of problems and had to figure them out. And if I can do it, I'm sure you can. The bigger issue, is that there are several ways a turnout can handle power, and often times I got advice that was specific to a type of turnout I didn't even have.

Plan the best you can, but at some point, you just have to lay down some track and test the wiring scheme. A multimeter than can test continuity is very helpful to test for shorts before you even turn on a power supply. You should never have continuity between the left and right rails.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I forgot to mention, that pretty much all newer (say the past 10-15 years or so) diesel locomotives have all-wheel electrical pickup, and they should be just fine traversing a frog that has no juice. Most frogs are relative short, so while the front wheels may lose power, the rear wheels are still getting juice, then by the time the rear wheels hit the dead frog, the front wheels are beyond it and can supply the needed electricity. Really, it's just the smaller steamers that have all their wheels that pickup electricity in a short section that may get "stuck" on a dead frog.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

When you say "gap the frog rails", are you referring to where they point out needing insulated joiners or to shorten the rails here? https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Insulfrog

If so, that makes sense. Definitely something I think I'll do. I was going to gap the entire frog-end of the turnout, but if those are the only rails that need it I'm ok with that too.

Still haven't decided on a power layout for mine. Thinking I'll likely drop power in at the base of every turnout and let it feed back into the track, and add another drop every 4-6 rail joins.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

Just insulate the connection between the frog rails on the turnout from the corresponding rails that lead to/from the turnout. I used the plastic Atlas insulating rail joiners. You can accomplish the same thing by gapping, but it's simpler to just use the insulated joiners. You are on the right track! Lots of people say "gap the frog rails" when they really just mean to insulate the joint.

That link you provided is pretty darn good, but it only discusses one of two causes of potential shorts. The one they discuss is caused by the train car (its wheels that is), not the wiring. A metal wheel can touch both the frog rails. You can prevent that by applying a very small dab of clear nail polish to one of the 2 frog rails right where they converge, so if a metal wheel does make contact with both frog rails, only one will conduct electricity.

The other cause of potential shorts with power routing turnouts is when you create a feature like a passing siding (basically a long, flat triangle). If one turnout is thrown without the other turnout also being thrown, it CAN create a short. No wiring can remedy it... you have to insulate the frog rails to prevent it. And I found it simpler to just always insulate the frog rails.

The other reason why I run power feeders to all sides of a turnout is so all track rails are powered all the time. With power routing turnouts, whatever route is not active goes dead unless you run a feeder to keep it powered regardless of which way the points are thrown.

It's nice to have people like you asking really good questions, because it is obvious you do your homework before asking for clarification.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

EBrown said:


> [snip]
> 
> I was going to gap the entire frog-end of the turnout, but if those are the only rails that need it I'm ok with that too.


The only time the entire frog end would need to be insulated is if you have to do that in order to isolate a reverse loop to be controlled by an AR module. As a matter of practice, I try to NOT solder any joints that involve a turnout. I do have a couple of places where I have a curve diverging from a turnout. In this case, I solders the outer rail (stock rail) so that when I bent the flex track into its curve, it wouldn't kink at the joint. Usually, soldering one rail is enough to prevent kinks between flex pieces.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

I will keep the nail-polish trick in mind.

When I said "gap the entire frog-end" I actually meant use insulated joiners on it. I was then going to deliberately power the track _after_ that point, so that the turnout was the "end" of that power run and a new power run started immediately after the diverging and main routes. I was hoping that would also resolve the "triangle" issue.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

The whole "triangle" thing is a bit nebulous. Lots of people say it cannot cause a short with insulfrog turnouts. Others say it does. It happened to me. the only thing that solved my short was to insulate the frog rails.

It's possible that Peco mis-packaged a turnout, and I may have received an electrofrog when I ordered a insulfrog. Either way, insulating frog rails and running power feeds to all sides is foolproof.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

Yeah, I think I'd rather take early precautions, even if a bit excessive. I have plenty of wire for running electrical contacts, a few of those straights will just need connecting wires soldered to them, but I've been soldering electrical contacts for 15 years so I trust I'll get it figured out (lol).

As a less-relevant but equally important (to me) question: do you use power-connecting rail joiners (Atlas makes one I was going to buy 2 dozen of) or do you prefer to solder wires direct to rails? Have you had a noticeable experience difference between the two?


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I chose to solder directly to the outer lower edge of the tracks. This way, I could put a single feeder in the middle of something like a 6-foot long section between turnouts


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

EBrown said:


> Basically, the title says it all.
> 
> From what I've read, there are ways to "switch" the electrical polarity on the frog with the turnout switch, is this the route I should go for DCC-loco's? I'm planning on only running diesel's for the most part, but I don't want to buy $250 in insulated turnouts if the "right" answer is electrified frogs with the polarity switch.
> 
> I'm referring to the PECO SL vs. SLE turnouts. SL-388/389, and SL-395/396 are my current list, but if I need to use the SLE versions with switched contacts I will. Just trying to get an answer for what will perform best.


EBrown;

Since you will be using recently manufactured diesel locomotives, they will likely have all-wheel electrical pickup.
That being the case, you have your choice of Peco turnout & frog types. Peco's (plastic) "Insulfrogs" or (metal) "Electrofrogs" or, (in my opinion, best of all) "Unifrogs" which have a composite, (part plastic part metal) frog. Just about any of the three types will work fine.

The reason I suggest the Unifrog is that it comes with the DCC compatible electrical configuration built-in. The Unifrog, right out of the box, is configured as an Insulfrog. If you decide to use the powered frog option, the necessary insulated gaps & frog power wire are also built-in. 

However, if you find the Unifrog is substantially more expensive, then either of the other two will work for you.

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

EBrown said:


> Yeah, I think I'd rather take early precautions, even if a bit excessive. I have plenty of wire for running electrical contacts, a few of those straights will just need connecting wires soldered to them, but I've been soldering electrical contacts for 15 years so I trust I'll get it figured out (lol).
> 
> As a less-relevant but equally important (to me) question: do you use power-connecting rail joiners (Atlas makes one I was going to buy 2 dozen of) or do you prefer to solder wires direct to rails? Have you had a noticeable experience difference between the two?


EBrown;

Rail joiners should be used for physically lining up the rails they join only, & not for electrical connectors. They get corroded and dirty over time, and may become insulators, instead of conductors. The only purpose I can see for rail joiners with pre-soldered wires attached is for people who don't know how to solder, & don't want to learn. Since you have 15 years of soldering experience, solder a small (24-28ga.) wire directly to the outside of the rail. Heat sinks on either side of the soldering area will protect the plastic ties from melting. A paper towel, wet with cold water, and draped across the track, makes an effective heat sink.

Traction Fan


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

Yeah I think I'm leaning towards the "I'll just solder the hell out of it" route. I have wire in stranded and solid-core from 28ga up to 18ga, so I think I'll grab some of the 24ga and 26ga stranded stuff and throw it in my "train pile". I only have one color of each size but I can label them with +/- stickers. Might pick up a few terminal blocks so I can wire everything into those.


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## JeffHurl (Apr 22, 2021)

I preferred solid core for the feeders. It seemed to hold a bend in the wire better than stranded. I would fish a wire through the table, bringing it up directly on the outside edge of the track. I used a pair of small needle nose pliers to make a 90-degree bend in the top 3/32" or so of the wire and then pulled the wire back down until just the bent piece was touching along the rail. Then soldered thge wire to the rail.

I ran an 18ga buses all the way around my layout, and used terminal blocks to branch off 22ga feeders


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

For me the choice has been 100% cosmetic. Insulated (dead or plastic) frogs are fine for diesels. But they look bad. For the love of whatever creator I don’t know why they can’t mold those separately in silver plastic. Tie color frogs bug the ever living stuff out of me. 
I prefer metal frogs, made from rail or castings. 
But aesthetics is very important to me on my RR. I won’t grief others for their choice, but I can’t use those sore thumb looking frogs any more.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

I don't actually like any part of the look of the PECO turnouts or Atlas flex track. The PECO flex with the brown ties is the look I want, so I'll probably be (hand) painting a LOT of ties and rails in my future...


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

EBrown said:


> I don't actually like any part of the look of the PECO turnouts or Atlas flex track. The PECO flex with the brown ties is the look I want, so I'll probably be (hand) painting a LOT of ties and rails in my future...


Central Valley sells turnout & flex track kits/ties. Stock rail sold separately. The flex comes in 12” lengths, with half-tie connections. Very easy to spray paint a couple hundred feet of mainline in one day that way. Fits a few rail codes: 83, 70. And I think 55 with modification. The TO kits are not super difficult. Files are needed for making the frog angle joint. Very highly detailed too. 
Details West makes cast metal frogs, which I’m considering, but doubles the cost per TO. The result is museum quality appearance though. 

Rail you can buy weathered or non-weathered. But the weathered type have to be cleaned to bare metal for solder to stick. Likely on the bottom with a small file where no one will see. Makes life so much easier.


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

I'm N Code 80, but I'll keep a lookout.

I don't mind doing the work to paint them, I like having those tedious tasks sometimes lol


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

EBrown said:


> Yeah I think I'm leaning towards the "I'll just solder the hell out of it" route. I have wire in stranded and solid-core from 28ga up to 18ga, so I think I'll grab some of the 24ga and 26ga stranded stuff and throw it in my "train pile". I only have one color of each size but I can label them with +/- stickers. Might pick up a few terminal blocks so I can wire everything into those.


When I'm out of a certain color of wire, I reach for a magic marker. This trick works well on tiny varnish insulated magnet wire too.

Traction Fan


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## EBrown (5 mo ago)

I have a plethora of magnet wire, may have to find something to use it for (maybe support wire fakes for a radio tower or something).


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

EBrown said:


> I have a plethora of magnet wire, may have to find something to use it for (maybe support wire fakes for a radio tower or something).


I use magnet wire for structure lighting. (LEDs) The magnet wire is so small that it can easily be concealed. One trick I've used is to super glue the magnet wire into an interior corner of a room, then paint over the wire and walls. This makes the wire practically invisible. 

Traction Fan


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

EBrown said:


> I'm N Code 80, but I'll keep a lookout.
> 
> I don't mind doing the work to paint them, I like having those tedious tasks sometimes lol


EBrown;

I hand paint my N-scale track. Its not all that bad. The photo shows a scratch-built turnout that I hand painted.

Traction Fan


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