# DCC on layout with 4 individual loops?



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Hi, my layout is extremely simple. It consists on 4 ovals. 2 are HO and 2 are N. I currently have 1 DCC loco (N), and 2 DCC ready locos (both HO}. They are all bachmann, and imsimply wondering if I could control all 4 loops with 1 DCC controller, and if so, how would I wire it? Im wishing for DCC simply because of sounds, lighting and possibly even smoother slow speed.. not to mention, it would be nice to only run a single controller for all 4 lines(instead of the 4 MARC 1300 units im currently running. I have no switching going on right now, and they are straight oval. I was looking at the bachmann system, but didn't want to pull any plug until I knew if it was possible.. This is my first "true"layout and I am enjoying learning as I go..

It's not a big layout at all, being on a board that is 48x40 inches.. It's just I've tried to my level to make it look nice and would love to have sounds. 

I hope this is possible as it would be fun to add a little bit of modernization to the layout, while hopefully not overwhelming myself..

Thank you in advance.. I've included a few pictures to show the ovals as maybe this may help with recommendations..

Thank you once again..









Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## cid (Jul 3, 2014)

Nice looking little layout! Lots of goodies! I wpuld run four separate parallel feeds to the tracks from your controller for ease of maintenance and troubleshooting. You will need a decoder for each loco.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Nice looking layout. Yes, you can control 4 locos with 1 DCC system. You can set one train in motion and then pull up another and so forth. I am not familiar with the Bachmann system but you should be able to call up 4 locos. But only
one at a time. That's true of any system. Once you go DCC, I advise you to only run locos with a decoder installed. As far
as wiring your loops can all be wired together. Nothing special. Since your loops are separate, you could have some DCC and some DC. In that case you can not mix the wiring. Dc would have to be separate from DCC wires.


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Yes........but....you will have to ensure the N scale decoders can handle the voltage the system will provide your HO decoders. That is why each system has settings, or a three-position toggle, to set the output voltage to the rails for each of the three popular scales, and I think they limit the amperage before the circuitry that detects shorts will sense a short and trip the circuit. If this is the case, it will be the HO decoders that suffer because they won't get more amperage draw than the system permits.

You would only run into major problems if you had reversals in polarity (which three separate ovals don't contain) or you were attempting to mix DC control and voltage supply with DCC to the rails at the same time.

If you run a bus the length of your oval's major axis, and then use maybe two pairs of feeders for each oval, you should be fine.


----------



## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

He is correct. My Dcc system has a 3 position switch. N-HO-G.


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Ok guys thank you for the replies. Please bear with me as im new as mentioned before. And thanks for the compliments. But ok, can you guys, please, please, please go into details on the parallel and bus writing you all mentioned. ImSure it is easy, and immaking it more complicated, but I don't quite understand. That and the reversals mentioned? Please and most thanks...

And now that you all have told me that, I will buy another DCC loco and work on getting decoders. So I'll only be running DCC on all 4 Lanes.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Your base controller has a number of outputs, maybe labeled Rail A and Rail B. A bus should be like an artery...robust, large, lots of volume or capacity. The major arteries of the body run up and down, and into the limbs. Branching off of those major vessels are the smaller arteries or capillaries. That's what the feeder wires are...thinner copper wires that connect the rails to the bus. This means that the bus wires are typically larger in diameter, say in the 14-16 gauge range for smaller layouts. Much larger systems would need possibly 12 gauge wires and dedicated circuits to minimize voltage losses across the rail system.

For those who like long layouts and only have the one controller, we locate the controller in the middle, or near it, and run a T bus. From those two rail outputs, you run two wires for a short distance, two to four feet, and then run a longer pair of bus sized wires along the long axis of the rail network. You displace the insulation on this long wire where you want to tie into it with the two shorter wires I was just talking about, the ones coming from the output terminals.

There's your bus. Just cap the end with a wire nut or wrap each end with some electrical tape and tack them up safely. They should NEVER touch each other...anywhere.

Then, where it seems natural or sensible to do, bare the wires by displacing the insulation of the bus wires, keep them staggered an inch or two to minimize the probability of a short by them touching, and wrap the bared ends of your thin feeder wires (doorbell or telephone wire) around the bared bus wire.

Important! Make sure you use one colour of insulation for the 'outer rail' everywhere, and another colour for the 'inner rail' everywhere. You'll soon get the hang of keeping track of the inner and outer rails and which wire must safely be wrapped around which.

Bare the other ends by about 3/8" and solder those to the sides of the rails. 

Now you have a distributing bus with larger wire that reduces the loss of voltage over distance, and you have a network of feeders energizing the rails on each oval of tracks. All one colour wires on the inner rails, all other colours on the outer rails. Before you power it up, get under there and take another careful look to ensure you have made no mistakes!

This should keep your voltage robust all over the track system, all ovals. Have fun.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Since this is a small layout, I think the wiring can be simple. Here's a picture that I think will illustrate easier than words:









Since you're already running this with DC, you can use the same wires that you have now. Rather than having them go to separate power packs, they all tie together into the one DCC command station.

Mark


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Thanks, Mark. You've simplified it in concept and graphically.


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Mark has nailed it perfectly. Who said one picture is worth a thousand words?

Output will be fine for both N & HO. The Bachmann EZ DCC system is good but very basic, all you’ll be able to do is set the locos address, you won’t be able to read CVs. I’d recommend you spend a little more and get the NCE PowerCab system which is fully featured, very easy to program if you’re new to DCC as it asks you questions rather than having to input numbers when you’re setting up a new loco.

The two HO engines you have would be quite straightforward to convert to sound if DCC ready and there should be plenty of room for a speaker although a sugar cube might be your best bet.

Nice little layout MatroxD, perfect for just watching the trains run round and round.


----------



## Tom_C (Jan 8, 2016)

Agree with Cyclops on the controllers. The minute you switch to DCC you're going to want to program a CV and you'll need something like the NCE.

I actually have both, and I only run a holiday layout. I originally thought I would just use the bachmann ez-command controller, but I needed to program the decoders so I got the NCE powercab. It's easy to use.

I use both. I do everyday controlling with the bachman and the powercab for programming, obviously.


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

mesenteria said:


> Your base controller has a number of outputs, maybe labeled Rail A and Rail B. A bus should be like an artery...robust, large, lots of volume or capacity. The major arteries of the body run up and down, and into the limbs. Branching off of those major vessels are the smaller arteries or capillaries. That's what the feeder wires are...thinner copper wires that connect the rails to the bus. This means that the bus wires are typically larger in diameter, say in the 14-16 gauge range for smaller layouts. Much larger systems would need possibly 12 gauge wires and dedicated circuits to minimize voltage losses across the rail system.
> 
> For those who like long layouts and only have the one controller, we locate the controller in the middle, or near it, and run a T bus. From those two rail outputs, you run two wires for a short distance, two to four feet, and then run a longer pair of bus sized wires along the long axis of the rail network. You displace the insulation on this long wire where you want to tie into it with the two shorter wires I was just talking about, the ones coming from the output terminals.
> 
> ...


Thank you tons for the explain! 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Since this is a small layout, I think the wiring can be simple. Here's a picture that I think will illustrate easier than words:
> 
> View attachment 403441
> 
> ...


OMG awesome! Awesome thanks.. Now a diagram, I can understand!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Cycleops said:


> Mark has nailed it perfectly. Who said one picture is worth a thousand words?
> 
> Output will be fine for both N & HO. The Bachmann EZ DCC system is good but very basic, all you’ll be able to do is set the locos address, you won’t be able to read CVs. I’d recommend you spend a little more and get the NCE PowerCab system which is fully featured, very easy to program if you’re new to DCC as it asks you questions rather than having to input numbers when you’re setting up a new loco.
> 
> ...


Thank you tons.. I think I was looking at either that controller (nce) and the diditrax.. I hadn't decided, as I wasn't even sure if it was possible. But.. I had sort of said I wasn't going with the bachmann controller.. The only thing I did not know, and still don't, the decoders by bachmann, those will work on any controller? 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Any decoder will work with any DCC controller as they all have to adhere to NMRA standards. But all decoders are not the same performance and feature wise, some will have superior slow speed control and other features. I’ve found the best to be from ESU and Lenz, the latter having a rather cool switching speed feature which cuts the loco speed in half giving finer slow speed control. Most of the other major makes are good but I’ve found the wires pull out of NCE decoders rather easily if you handle them a lot. I shouldn’t bother with the cheap unbranded ones some retailers sell.
If you want sound the Tsunami by Soundtraxx is excellent.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Ain't our guys good. You have the answers you
needed.

But there's one other thought that hasn't been
covered.

Since you have both N and HO on the benchwork,
at the beginning, you might want to consider
converting your HO locos. They're a little larger
and would make your installation easier.

Meanwhile, you could keep your N trains running
on DC just as they are now. Conversion of the
N could come at a time more convenient for you later.

The wiring will still be simple. Just connect the
track drops from the HO tracks to a bus, as explained,
fed by your new DCC controller. Don't change
the N wires, continue with them and their power
packs as you have them. You can still run 4 trains
but easier.

Don


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

What a brilliant idea Don, I’d never thought of that.


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Cycleops said:


> Any decoder will work with any DCC controller as they all have to adhere to NMRA standards. But all decoders are not the same performance and feature wise, some will have superior slow speed control and other features. I’ve found the best to be from ESU and Lenz, the latter having a rather cool switching speed feature which cuts the loco speed in half giving finer slow speed control. Most of the other major makes are good but I’ve found the wires pull out of NCE decoders rather easily if you handle them a lot. I shouldn’t bother with the cheap unbranded ones some retailers sell.
> If you want sound the Tsunami by Soundtraxx is excellent.


Cool and thank you much.. I am going to look at everything in closer detail and make a list of upgrade components tomorrow.. I will only need 2 decoders to start with, so I will probably use the bachmann to start, but then as I gain an understanding (and more know how), I will surely want more (possibly).. But then who knows.. But I am taking notes on everything being suggested.. 

I can get the decoders easily. I already have a source for those.. I will see if they also sell the controller.. And then, I will look into different features and the like. 

I thank you for that advice and answering my question...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

DonR said:


> Ain't our guys good. You have the answers you
> needed.
> 
> But there's one other thought that hasn't been
> ...


Great suggestion. But, because I have the one N which is already DCC, I would go ahead and get it running (probably first since nothing at all needs to be done to it) first, and then, place the decoders in the HO locos and set them up, and lastly, the last N. But honestly, im probably going to buy another N loco this coming week. As it's just easier to do that, and have a clean slate and sweep on all 4 Lanes from the jump. Then, just wire them up, and deal with programming one at a time..

Usually, once I do something, usually it's imprinted in my brain.. So the one that will probably be difficult is the first one. Whichever it is honestly. And then, the rest should and hopefully will be ok.. 



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

And after watching a few videos, I believe I may have changed my mind and may end up with a power cab starter kit.. It seems, that at least to start and learn, with the 4 locos, this is all I probably will need..

I am inspired to go downstairs and lol at the manual for the 1 DCC loco that I currently have, for is functions..

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


And thank you to everyone that complimented my little layout.. I appreciate it.


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Update folks.. Picked up my f7 today. I am going to buy the decoders for the two HO engines next. And then I think the controller...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

I also, due to wiring requirements for my buildings, did my first bus and terminal block setup. So I have one block left I think I am going to use on the DCC controller. 

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Well, I picked up my power cab today. Surprisingly,a local shop had it. So I wired it up, which was as easy as a piece of cake, and programmed my first loco. It went very well. So I have everything programmed with the basics(all 4 locomotives), and it's fully up and running. And the DCC did smooth out that engine I was worried about. . I have to figure out the recall function, as it isn't working exactly how it's starting in the manual. 

I also need to rest up on the little bachmann manuals for the functions that the locos have. My next step will be looking into sound options and seeing if I can do that. 

But I'm very happy and satisfied with the powercab as a system. I also would like to purchase the USB interface for setting up a dedicated programming track. That along with some stated that they were using their laptop to control the cab. Along with if possible firmware updates (not even sure if this exists for the system, but it would be nice...

So while I have the system and it's working even better than I expected, of course there is more to do...

But thank you everyone that responded and I still welcome and ask for any tips that anyone can give. Even at this stage, as I'm still, very much a beginner..

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

Congrats on getting things running with DCC!

Mark


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> Congrats on getting things running with DCC!
> 
> Mark


Thank you much.. Much appreciated..

I just need to wrap my head around it now,..

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Well done :appl: Glad you're happy with the PowerCab. You don’t need the usb interface board to set up a program track. NCE make a unit which allows you to switch a section of track for programming use but you really don’t need it with your set up. You can program on your oval, just make sure you remove all other locos. The interface will enable you to use JMRI when installed on your computer for programming and a lot more but you will find the PowerCab will handle all you need for now.

Have fun.


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Cycleops said:


> Well done :appl: Glad you're happy with the PowerCab. You don’t need the usb interface board to set up a program track. NCE make a unit which allows you to switch a section of track for programming use but you really don’t need it with your set up. You can program on your oval, just make sure you remove all other locos. The interface will enable you to use JMRI when installed on your computer for programming and a lot more but you will find the PowerCab will handle all you need for now.
> 
> Have fun.


Thanks Cycleops! I think I'm going to get that simply because I don't want to, have to remove all the locomotives for programming a new locomotive. I have already prepared a small second of track on a 2x4(both n and ho), and I will figure out a way to add alligator clips (I may end up using an EC5 plug that I use with my radio control equipment), to always have it ready on the bus, but not need to 24/7 need to have it connected (space constraint as far as having the programming block on the layout) to the programming block..

And yes, I'm reading a little bit up, on just the basic functions of the cab system. It's going to take a little just getting used to the system and what it can do with my bachmann locomotives. I really, really want to do sound though.. With that in mind, so you happen to know, with say for instance, the soundtraxx sound decoders, do they completely replace the decoder I have in the loco? Or is it just an add on to what I already have? Just wondering. 

But I have no idea "yet"about CV and how to manipulate them. I had said I was going to try lights in the locos first.. For learning... I might try that today...

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

MatroxD said:


> I have already prepared a small second of track on a 2x4(both n and ho), and I will figure out a way to add alligator clips (I may end up using an EC5 plug that I use with my radio control equipment), to always have it ready on the bus, but not need to 24/7 need to have it connected (space constraint as far as having the programming block on the layout) to the programming block.


This is what I've done as well. I've got one piece of flex track glued down to a 1x4. I've also soldered leads from the track to a DPDT toggle switch that I can flip between "normal" and programming modes. I can then do my programming on the bench and test it quickly on the small track section.



MatroxD said:


> I really, really want to do sound though.. With that in mind, so you happen to know, with say for instance, the soundtraxx sound decoders, do they completely replace the decoder I have in the loco? Or is it just an add on to what I already have?


The new sound decoder will completely replace your current decoder.



MatroxD said:


> But I have no idea "yet"about CV and how to manipulate them. I had said I was going to try lights in the locos first.. For learning... I might try that today...


There's no need to worry about CVs to turn the lights on and off. You should be able to find a button labeled "F0" on your throttle control. Pressing that on will turn the lights on and press it again to turn them off.

Mark


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> This is what I've done as well. I've got one piece of flex track glued down to a 1x4. I've also soldered leads from the track to a DPDT toggle switch that I can flip between "normal" and programming modes. I can then do my programming on the bench and test it quickly on the small track section.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Mark! I hope I remember and ask all the questions I have of you..

First yes, I think it's a very good idea to do this.. do you have any pictures of yours? I'm trying to come up with the final look of mine.. 

Second, thank you for answering that question.. I am looking that my first sound board to hopefully purchase this week. I'd like to try one of the soundtraxx econi boards just to get my hands wet, as I'm not sure if this are a direct drop in or not (8 pin). I really feel like I need some sounds, on at least one of the engines.. And I figure the ho ones should be easier.. I am kind of worried though honestly..


And honestly, the real reason I wanted to mess with the lights (it was too no avail because, unless my findings were incorrect, which very well could be, only the summer, lights on and off, and I think that's it can be changed with the stock bachmann decoder), was too learn about CV's in a sort of safe manner (that I couldn't completely ruin an engine). I have searched all day for things to change, but I don't know the CV values to change anything.. And they mention in the manual doing it, but I haven't tried as of yet.. I really just want to get used to getting into the system and knowing my way around.

For instance, I'd love to change the start, mid and higher voltage to manipulate how the locos run. I see a lot of people changing the start voltage for smoother slow speeds. I also have been running in 128 steps to try and further with out things.. 

I also noticed on some videos that steering step 1 in speed will automatically turn on the lights. But I'm not sure whether or not I can do that.. 

So I'm really just trying to find out what I can and cannot do with what I have. Along with that, what's safe...

If anyone including yourself can point me in a direction of lists, CV numbers, values, etc, I'd be extremely grateful..


I think I asked and answered all questions... But I am having a ball with it. It's like the engines are completely different... This, the fun factor is massively increased...

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I don't currently have pictures of my programming track and wire harness. I'll see if I can take some tomorrow. There's really not much to it. I have a Digitrax DCC controller and it has normal Rail A&B output and programming track output terminals. Those go to each side of the DPDT switch that will route one set or the other to the track.

I can't answer if the sound decoder you referenced will drop into your current locomotive or not. Maybe someone else that's done decoder changes will know.

Regarding changing CV values, my recommendation would be to not touch any of the motor control settings for locomotives that came with a factory installed decoder until you have more experience. I think manufacturers usually have these values pretty well optimized for their locomotives (at least that's been my experience with my locos). Maybe others will disagree.

You need to find the technical reference manual for the each of the decoders you own. There are some CVs that are common across many decoders (like address, reset, etc.), but there are a lot of others that are unique to each decoder. The manual will define all the CVs and what they do. You'll then be able to see what options may exist for light control. If you had a sound decoder, I would recommend that you start with changing some of the volume levels of the various sounds. I think that's much safer than playing with any of the motor controls. Remember that there is a CV to reset the decoder back to factory settings that you can use if you really mess up and need to get back to defaults.

Mark


----------



## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

MatroxD said:


> And yes, I'm reading a little bit up, on just the basic functions of the cab system. It's going to take a little just getting used to the system and what it can do with my bachmann locomotives. I really, really want to do sound though.. With that in mind, so you happen to know, with say for instance, the soundtraxx sound decoders, do they completely replace the decoder I have in the loco? Or is it just an add on to what I already have? Just wondering.
> 
> Sent from my Note 8


If you already have a decoder installed which had a eight pin plug you just remove it and replace it with Soundtraxx one. I don’t think they come with a speaker so you’ll need to choose one. I’ve found that the small ‘sugar cube’ speakers are very good and rival much bigger units for output and quality, plus of course they are easy to find space for. You can mount them on double sided adhesive pads. You’ll also need some heat shrink tube for covering the solders joins.


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> I don't currently have pictures of my programming track and wire harness. I'll see if I can take some tomorrow. There's really not much to it. I have a Digitrax DCC controller and it has normal Rail A&B output and programming track output terminals. Those go to each side of the DPDT switch that will route one set or the other to the track.
> 
> I can't answer if the sound decoder you referenced will drop into your current locomotive or not. Maybe someone else that's done decoder changes will know.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

Maybe that's why I couldn't turn up any results for the bachmann decoders, as far as settings. The only ones that I really saw, were the sound settings. And yes, wise suggestion on leaving things be, and just enjoying for the time being..

And if you could, that would be awesome, as I kind of have a picture in my mind, but as I grow older, the picture thing, is sort of getting fuzzy, and not as complete as it used to be.. 

And your switch is a good idea. I was thinking of doing one, for the controller, as I like to leave the house lights on, but turn the locomotives off. I know with DC, and the MRC transformers, I could switch them off, but with this, there's no dedicated switch. If I throttle down completely, and shut the lights off, will that work? Or do I completely need to unplug the power supply?

Oh! And another question, to read the amperage(total being consumed), shouldn't I be able to just touch my multimeter (fluke) probes on one of the loops, since it's all, realistically, now, one continuous loop of power?


Thanks! You guys are helping me immensely!

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Cycleops said:


> If you already have a decoder installed which had a eight pin plug you just remove it and replace it with Soundtraxx one. I don’t think they come with a speaker so you’ll need to choose one. I’ve found that the small ‘sugar cube’ speakers are very good and rival much bigger units for output and quality, plus of course they are easy to find space for. You can mount them on double sided adhesive pads. You’ll also need some heat shrink tube for covering the solders joins.


Thanks Cyclops.... You have answered my question in full about the sound decoders.. Now, lol, I'm kind of like "Mann... Ugh, I should have just gotten the locomotives with sound already in them".. lol.. At least one, to start off with. It's a bit much as far as the speed in which I have done and evolved in this project. I mean at Christmas, I had just purchased the n scale set and was running it (the loop And stock bachmann transformer), and the little battery operated train, on the table.. Now, albeit small, two months later, I have gone to a full blown digital mini layout.. And it's been rough at some junctures, along with the time and cost.. I'm getting to the point where I need a little break from all the mechanical, and upgrades, to simply sit back and enjoy it.. Not to mention, learning this controller.. 

But in doing the ready, on board sound, isn't some quality sacrificed? But then again, it might be, but I'd still have sound... But better to do it right, than to not and half it.. Maybe I'll try to buy a decoder a month or something to force myself to show down... He he he

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

Mark VerMurlen said:


> I don't currently have pictures of my programming track and wire harness. I'll see if I can take some tomorrow. There's really not much to it. I have a Digitrax DCC controller and it has normal Rail A&B output and programming track output terminals. Those go to each side of the DPDT switch that will route one set or the other to the track.
> 
> I can't answer if the sound decoder you referenced will drop into your current locomotive or not. Maybe someone else that's done decoder changes will know.
> 
> ...


Here is what I threw together this morning over a cup of coffee (spilled some.. lol) to work with my transformer for now. I am going to try it out to clean my road wheels. 

Sent from my Note 8


----------



## MatroxD (Jan 19, 2018)

MatroxD said:


> Here is what I threw together this morning over a cup of coffee (spilled some.. lol) to work with my transformer for now. I am going to try it out to clean my road wheels.
> 
> Sent from my Note 8


Forgot the pics...









Sent from my Note 8


----------

