# MARX / LIONEL SMOKE GENERATOR / VAPE FLUID / FIRST TEST / IT WORKS



## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

looking for alternatives to mineral oil. this is nicotine free unscented vape fluid for e cigarettes...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

what does he say about what it contains ? 90% vegetable glycerine and 10% propylene glycol and ??


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

This video could of been made prior to the anhydrous glycerin.

Just reading up on the subject Glycerin is derived from a plant or animal compound that produces glycerin and soap. I am thinking the term vegetable is irrelevant. Chemically it is what it is. USP is a grade for food or medical use but I cannot be sure until I read the label.


The cost is in the purity. The question is how pure does it have to be to burn it. Vape is inhaled directly but train smoke is second hand.

One good thing is that I have no problems viewing his videos.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

anhydrous just means no water, nothing more ....
glycerin can come from three sources, vegetable which comes from mostly soy beans and a byproduct of biodiesel, that's the most common ...
it also can come from tallow [animal byproduct] or petrochemical, an oil byproduct ...
vegetable is the most common, as biodiesel is gaining popularity .. and [apparantly] is preferred by hair users who have troubles with petrochemical derivatives ..


i don't know if there is actually any difference between the three types ?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Vape fluid is many times the price of smoke fluid, so I truly fail to see the logic in using that in smoke units! I have no doubt it'll produce some vapor, but why bother.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

wvgca said:


> what does he say about what it contains ? 90% vegetable glycerine and 10% propylene glycol and ??



And ????? Was, Keep out of reach of children.


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## daveh219 (Sep 16, 2012)

Well...GRJ answered my question!!! 

Cost....


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

this was simply an experiment to see if it worked. personally i am allergic to the smoke produced by mineral oil. if you google mineral oil smoke it is TOXIC. there is no nicotine in this fluid so no need to keep it out of the reach of children, mineral oil is far more toxic. the advantage of using vape fluid is that it is NOT PRODUCING SMOKE. vapor is heavier than air and dissipates in a matter of seconds rather than filling the room full of smoke. 

vape fluid is far more expensive than mineral oil, as i said this was an EXPERIMENT to see how it worked in a smoke generator...


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

does the vapour from the vape fluid condense on the tracks and cars like mineral oil does ??


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

no, no sign of any residue at all, the vapor literally disappears in about 10 seconds or or so, i have not run it for any significant amount of time, just enough to test it but it does not irritate your lungs, has no smell at all and does not fill the air with smoke. once you stop the generator there is no trace of the vapor at all.


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## BrokeCurmudgeon (Feb 8, 2016)

BENZ TRAINZ said:


> this was simply an experiment to see if it worked. personally i am allergic to the smoke produced by mineral oil. if you google mineral oil smoke it is TOXIC. there is no nicotine in this fluid so no need to keep it out of the reach of children, mineral oil is far more toxic. the advantage of using vape fluid is that it is NOT PRODUCING SMOKE. vapor is heavier than air and dissipates in a matter of seconds rather than filling the room full of smoke.
> 
> vape fluid is far more expensive than mineral oil, as i said this was an EXPERIMENT to see how it worked in a smoke generator...


"Is mineral oil smoke toxic?
* Mineral Oil can irritate the skin causing a rash or burning feeling on contact. * While Mineral Oil has been tested, it is not classifiable as to its potential to cause cancer. * There is no evidence that Mineral Oil affects reproduction."


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

BENZ TRAINZ said:


> the advantage of using vape fluid is that it is NOT PRODUCING SMOKE.


FYI, properly operating smoke unit do not produce smoke with normal smoke fluid, rather they do exactly what a vape pipe does, vaporize the mineral fluid. It is not smoke that you're seeing.

As for being allergic, I can understand that, many folks are allergic to all sorts of odd things that you wouldn't expect. I haven't heard of an allergy to mineral oil, but it certainly can happen. From the reference below, apparently it's fairly rare.

Mineral oils

A quote from that page.



> Allergic reactions to mineral oils are very rare. In a study with 80,000 participants, it was shown that medicinal white oils have no sensitization potential in human skin, which means they do not trigger allergies.


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## BENZ TRAINZ (Sep 22, 2017)

mineral oil SMOKES at 122 degrees. i am not allergic to the oil, i am allergic to the smoke it produces. it really burns my lungs, especially running 3 or 4 smokers at the same time. with the door closed the room fills with smoke.

mineral oil smoke is toxic especially in a closed space. i can only run a smoker for a few minutes before i have to turn on a fan and get it out of the air, thus my experiments with vapor rather than smoke.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, I can identify with that Ben, if there's too much "smoke", I can suffer overload. It just makes me sneeze, but clearly I think ventilation is called for if you run a lot of smoke in your trains. I think we're on the same page. 

In that regard, I look forward to your experiments, maybe you will find something less offensive. Personally, when someone is vaping around me, I find that "smoke" obnoxious as well, so I'm not sure that's the answer.

There is one answer, but I'm not ready to try to research it further. Water vapor! An ultrasonic humidifier emits a cloud of water vapor that is truly benign. I know a guy that did an atomic power plant model with a few of these in the bottom, it's very impressive, and the vapor has no smell at all.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Have there been any developments with the vape fluid?
One thing I noticed is that vapes produce a lot of vapor from a small package. That much coming from an Ho locomotive would look great!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

He doesn't come here anymore.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Has anyone else tried it?


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

According to this diy:

Base liquid – Or in other words, vegetable glycerin and propylene glycol: the two most important ingredients in e-juice. Your base liquid, which is ultimately unflavored zero nic e-juice, can come already premixed in a ratio like 50/50 or 70/30. But if you want to have flexibility over the final ratio of your juice, I would advise buying a liter of VG and 500 mL of PG. Make sure they are both USP grade—it will ensure they are clean enough to use for mixing e-juice.









How to Make Vape Juice: A Beginner’s Guide to DIY


Ever wondered how to make e-juice? This detailed guide will show you how to make your own vape juice for personal satisfaction.




vaping360.com





It seems that leaving out nicotine gives you a pretty harmless vapor that has more volume than the oil.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

And I found this:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Interesting. Years back we had a video on an animated display in Europe. All custom work. Unfortunately it was just to view. This guy is something else!


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Seems like this should be doable with an Ho locomotive.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Just saw this thread.
Have been vaping for like 12 years making own e-liquid for it and its very cheap compared to store bought .
A gallon of USPG VG and Pg is 70.00 total if one has prime amazon and even cheaper because of the 90 -10 rtatio one does not need a gallon of PG.and will make quite a bit for model trains, perhaps will try it down the road as i have a lot of mth pipe smoke fluid for now my favorite to use. The thought did cross my mind but never tried it.

The Vg creates much of the smoke where as the much much thinner PG carries flavor in the vape world this is why 90%VG is most likely used above and should work well in smoke units 

As for the smell when one adds flavoring to the mix it carries in the taste inhaled and vapor released in the air.
As a side i do vape at around 11 volts and get less than a cig exhale but my ratio is exact opposite ratio of Benz formula used .
96 % pg 4% vg as VG can congest and give one flem.


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## Madman (Aug 22, 2020)

I've used lamp oil for my large scale trains outdoors. It works as well as any of the train manufacturers smoke fluid and is many times less costly. But I wouldn't use it indoors.

_*"Every so often, the topic of lamp oil as a cheap substitute for smoke fluid in Lionel and Marx trains comes up.*_
*
The topic has been beaten to death on many closed message groups, but finding the answer isn’t always that easy. But, in short, it’s not a safe thing to do.



The problem is ambiguity. Lamp oil’s main ingredient is almost always listed as paraffin. Depending on where it was produced, could be one of two things. In some parts of the world, paraffin is mineral oil, which also happens to be the active ingredient in smoke fluid. But in some other parts of the world, paraffin is kerosene, which you don’t want to be putting into a toy train. Since there are no regulations about lamp oil in the United States, it’s impossible to know whether you’re getting harmless mineral oil or potentially dangerous kerosene when you buy lamp oil.

Smoke units work by boiling the oil, not burning it. Like a real steam engine, the “smoke” you see coming out of the stack is actually steam. So kerosene isn’t what you want for the smoke unit.

I’m sure part of the motivation is cost and part of it is availability. In many parts of the country there’s no longer any such thing as a local hobby shop.

If you need a cheap and readily available substitute for smoke fluid, there’s only one safe way to get one. Go to a pharmacy and buy a bottle of mineral oil. It’s not likely to work as well as commercial smoke fluid, and it may or may not work as well as lamp oil, but it won’t set your train on fire either."



Read more: *_*https://dfarq.homeip.net/dont-use-lamp-oil-as-smoke-fluid-in-lionel-trains/#ixzz7CCJK44D4*_


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I had to test a Loco's smoke generator before listing it on eBay. I didn't have smoke fluid so I used some baby oil. Worked like a charm and had that "baby's Bottom" scent.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Millstonemike said:


> I had to test a Loco's smoke generator before listing it on eBay. I didn't have smoke fluid so I used some baby oil. Worked like a charm and had that "baby's Bottom" scent.


Very cool Mike. 

I for one do not understand the fascination with "smoke". I run Diesels and when my new layout is running, I'll look for switches that shut smoke down. Yes it's neat and adds a level of realism but for Diesels it is a feature I can do without. 

Steam guys are probably different. But even then the amount of time spent making sure it's filled and not trying to burn up seems more stressful.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

As someone solely interested in steam engines, smoke/steam is a huge part of the fun. Seeing the steam interact with the environment and scenery is also huge, like an engine coming out of a tunnel preceded by a bunch of steam, and the same steam billowing all around...
I wish there was a way to produce a huge amount. 
I really think there has to be a way to use the vape system in locomotives. I have seen people vaping and producing HUGE plumes. That coming from an HO engine would look awesome!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I always thought this one had decent smoke, it's a TMCC upgrade I did some time ago.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

So as a person that has been been making my own vape fluid for long time i tried my own e-liquid in a lionel poistwar 2046 baby hudson converted to liquid smoke unit.

Transformer set at 9 volts here is picture of smoke .
This works really well for the % i vape at as VG is what produces clouds in the world of vaping they call them folks cloud chasers i'm the opposite as VG does not agree with me much

With that said this is opposite of OP fluid which he stated was 90 % VG mine is 96%PG for those curious all are
*USP Kosher Certified 99.9%+ Pure Food & Pharmaceutical Grade*

Non the less it works .

Best thing it is CHEAP YES VERY CHEAP but only if ones buys the ingredients and mixes it not the store bought stuff.
I make 450 ML at a time and the cost is less than what Benz paid for the little 10ml bottle.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I always thought this one had decent smoke, it's a TMCC upgrade I did some time ago.



That looks absolutely awesome! Love it!


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Have to take the batteries out of the smoke detectors for that one.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Dieseler said:


> So as a person that has been been making my own vape fluid for long time i tried my own e-liquid in a lionel poistwar 2046 baby hudson converted to liquid smoke unit.
> 
> Transformer set at 9 volts here is picture of smoke .
> This works really well for the % i vape at as VG is what produces clouds in the world of vaping they call them folks cloud chasers i'm the opposite as VG does not agree with me much
> ...


Are you getting same, less, or more smoke than with conventional smoke fluid?
Would that be safe in a more modern, DCC engine?


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Getting less but i'm almost positive if i were to use 96%VG instead of just 4 % that was used in 2046 it would be just as good as conventional fluid. This test was done at 9 volts and smoke a little less at 7 volts the lowest i tried.
As for DCC engines sorry cannot say i'm not at all familiar with those types .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hmm... A primary ingredient of vape juice seems to be propylene glycol.

*What's in an E-Cigarette?*

_"Although PG is generally considered safe, when used in _
_high doses or for prolonged periods, PG toxicity can occur. 
Reported adverse effects from PG include central nervous 
system (CNS) toxicity, *hyperosmolarity, hemolysis, *_
_*cardiac arrhythmia, seizures, agitation*, and lactic acidosis"_

I think I'll stick to standard smoke fluid.


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## wvgca (Jan 21, 2013)

gunnerjohn .. that's an exceptional amount of smoke .... if the HO size could produce anything even near to that volume, it would be very nice ... i have two that have smoke capability, but not anywhere near to what you can offer ...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, you are a bit more limited in size and power for smoke output in HO!


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

John i cannot disagree with you as the studies seem somewhat vague concerning long term use vaping .
It is used in many everyday products that humans use including pharmaceuticals, sunscreen, lotions, shampoos, food flavorings, pet foods, cosmetic creams, theatrical smoke machines .

Truth be told anything one inhales in lungs is not good period other than air you breath.
Is it more harmful in a trains smoke unit compared to smoke fluid or the pills made for postwar units is anyone's guess.


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## Commander Zarkon (Sep 24, 2021)

Seems that, regardless of which fluid, if one is to run engines with smoke often, its a good idea to have an air filter and/or vent fan to the outside.


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