# beat up old Marx



## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I understand this is probably not worth the effort to fix, not sure I will be able to; but I just want to try my hand at it, just to see if I can - any advice before I jump in. :dunno:


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## e021911 (Sep 20, 2016)

Appears to be a prewar engine. You can use EBay to try and find an engine number. Parts will be had to find for the valve gears but will be a good learning peace. Have you tried to see if it will run?


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I did, it did not go; but it bogged my transformer down. Will my 2014 Lionel transformer be ok to drive this loco? 

I did get the wheels (is that the right word for a train?) to rotate smoothly and it does not jump or stick, the gears seem to be meshing up very well. I put it back on my Lionel Fast Track with the transformer and it still seemed to bog it down.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

That's a postwar 198 that was originally a windup and someone put an older prewar motor in it. The nice thing about Marx is that so many parts were interchangeable.

And yes, your Lionel transformer will be fine. Just don't turn the voltage up over 14 volts.

I've coaxed Marx motors in terrible condition to run again, even when they were nasty, filthy, and in some cases, incomplete. The Marx motor is simple and easy to work on. I think learning to fix Marx motors makes it easier to fix Lionel motors when you get the inclination.

A lot of people just spray down Marx motors with contact cleaner and then re-lube, but you can damage the bronze bushings that way. I really prefer a disassembly and cleaning.

Here's my very long writeup on taking apart and cleaning up a Marx 999. Your motor will be nearly identical.

http://dfarq.homeip.net/marx-999-repair-and-service/

But if you want to do something less ambitious, I've actually gotten these motors to run again by adding a single drop of Rail-Zip onto the commutator, spinning the wheels around, and letting it sit. Oil may work if you don't have any Rail-Zip. It's a temporary fix but sometimes it gets these old motors going after they've been sitting too long.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Very interesting, now that you mention it I see a hole on each side where a wind up key could go. How will I know I am not exceeding 14 volts? I will get this write up printed off, looks like a good article.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

so, looking at you article I see a front part that swivels with turns, mine don't have that, is it supposed to? also, in these two pictures I pointed out what I think is a switch - is it? what would it switch?


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Your loco probably does not have a front pilot (the part that swivels with turns) - many low end locos did not. You are right that you probably can't justify the work to restore it based on its market value, but it will be a fun project. I enjoy taking old locos like these apart, stripping the paint and fixing dents, etc., getting them running etc. 

Good luck with it. You will have fun and learn.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

4G-Man said:


> so, looking at you article I see a front part that swivels with turns, mine don't have that, is it supposed to?


Lee is right. Some had pilot wheels, many didn't. 



> also, in these two pictures I pointed out what I think is a switch - is it? what would it switch?


That switch turns the reverse unit off and on. Early motors had it and later ones didn't--a cost-saving measure. Try the motor in the position in your lower photo first. That eliminates the reverse unit as the cause of failure. Rebuilding a Marx reverse unit takes a couple of hours the first time you do one.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Dave Farquhar write up is excellent and basically how i care for my motors.
For those that have no meter
an old trick to test if commutator is good is with transformer on low voltage setting and pair of alligator clips touching 2 segments at a time until all are done -you want a small spark each time.

Clip the shaft of commutator and with other clip touch each copper segment - you do not want to see a spark.

Easy for me as i do not have a meter which is easier .


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

4G-Man said:


> I understand this is probably not worth the effort to fix, not sure I will be able to; but I just want to try my hand at it, just to see if I can - any advice before I jump in. :dunno:


They are all worth saving. Even if just for parts.

Check this one out,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=15024


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Big Ed said:


> They are all worth saving. Even if just for parts.
> 
> Check this one out,
> 
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=15024


Oh-my-gosh Big Ed, that thread look awesome! We have family over still, but I will certainly check that out! Thanks man!


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

So the family is gone for a few hours now and has allowed me a little time to begin tinkering. As I began to dig in I right of way noticed this - could tis be the problem? What goes in this hole, just a bolt and nut?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Don't worry about the voltage, small electric motors are very tolerant of over voltage.

In the slot car world, we quite often run 3v rated motors flat out for hours on 12-14volts.

I'm converting a 68 Vauxhall Viva from gas to electric, using a 
74v rated motor, which, I will be running on 400volts.

Besides, toy trains are self regulating, at anything over about 12 volts, that thing will be flying off at the corners...


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

That is a screw to complete the ground( common). Undo the piece and see what is underneath.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Yep, that screw missing will definitely cause a no run situation.

Not sure if Marx are series wired, or parallel wired. If parallel wired, the transformer would still see the load of the motor coil, which could explain the "load" you hear in the transformer.

If series wired, that missing screw should disable the entire circuit, and, there should be no load on the transformer, indicating you have a short somewhere.....


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Just reading through Dave's write up and it looks like just a screw, no nut, and I can see threads in the housing, I need to get a small screw to see if that completes the circuit. 

Yes, BWA, tube transformer would load (up or down, I dunno which) but it was obvious it wasn't happy. 

T-Man, let me see if this one works first before I get too brave; I'd like to work on one that is broken anyway before I go exploring.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Anyone happen to know the size of that pan-head screw by chance?


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Well I found a little bolt that fit, same thing, I guess I will be digging in after all


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Got the plate off - no biggie, those brushes are easy; they work off the face of the armature, I was figuring off the side and was wondering how I'd get the back in, but once apart it was obvious how they work. Going to clean it up and see if that makes it happy.


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## sanepilot (Mar 11, 2012)

*screw*

Hi,I`m no Marx expert. My knowledge tells me that screw and the two nuts are what holds the fibre board and brushes and the back of the armature.I`ve had a few apart but I could be wrong.First thing I`d do would be clean everything, oil it and definitely clean the face of the armature. Those motors are hard to kill.



Hope this helps,sanepilot. Have fun and enjoy


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

sanepilot said:


> Hi,I`m no Marx expert. My knowledge tells me that screw and the two nuts are what holds the fibre board and brushes and the back of the armature.I`ve had a few apart but I could be wrong.First thing I`d do would be clean everything, oil it and definitely clean the face of the armature. Those motors are hard to kill.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps,sanepilot. Have fun and enjoy


Going to go get some items to help clean this loco up, it is built up with brushes dust pretty badly.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> That's a postwar 198 that was originally a windup and someone put an older prewar motor in it. The nice thing about Marx is that so many parts were interchangeable.
> 
> And yes, your Lionel transformer will be fine. Just don't turn the voltage up over 14 volts.
> 
> ...


Dave, this write up, as good as it is will not work on my loco - I just realized this one is for "toy" trains..... I know that's gotta be an old joke around here, but hey, I'm a newbie, I should get a pass.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Just checked, they must be wired parallel, just checked one of my loco's, and, with the screw out, there is still current flowing through the coil.

So, replacing that screw should fix things up OK.

That contact cleaner thing is a big red herring. Sintered bronze bushes are indeed oil impregnated when made, but, that oil is all gone within months (depending on how much use it gets). You have to keep applying oil, to keep them lubricated, just like most metal bearings.

Cleaning them with contact cleaner causes no problems whatsoever, so long as you re oil them afterwards. Have been doing this for over 50 years now, and, have never lost a bearing because of this.

WD40, is a different issue, WD40 was NOT designed to be a lubricant, it is a metal protector, to protect exposed metal surfaces from moisture, and, the elements when left outside.

WD40 turns gummy after a few weeks. If used on sintered bushings, it will gum up the little spaces in the bushings, so, they will no longer absorb and retain oil. Not a good thing, but, so long as you oil them regularly, the bushes will still last just fine.

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

4G-Man said:


> Well I found a little bolt that fit, same thing, I guess I will be digging in after all


Make sure that screw is not so long that it hits the armature.
I would also make sure that you take care not to lose the brushes when you take the side cover off.
A good soaking of WD-40 spray, and then a good compressed air blowout, and that motor will hum. Just wipe the excess from the frame and drivers.
That is just a cleaning. For a complete redo, I disassemble the entire motor, replace the brushes resurface the Armature brush plate. Repair the third rail contact. 

Dan


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

That screw is actually below the armature, so, no issues there.

What it will hit though, is the center pickup, which would cause a dead short, so, a definite yes on making sure the screw is short enough....


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

The screw is not making contact with the center pickup, close but no contact, I slid a piece of hard stock paper through it easily. I cleaned the face of the armature real good, I cleaned the brushes and the brush cylinders real good still it just hums on the track. So, I did what some say don't and some say do and blasted it with contact cleaner; same thing, just sits in one spot and hums. I have not oiled the parts yet, was hoping to see it move just a tiny bit first.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I think I am going deep with this dude, will report.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok - I'm in.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

HELP! Ok I got this deal under control except for one piece that fell out of nowhere and I cannot figure out where it came from - looks like a roofing staple.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4G-Man - that piece fell out of the e-unit. in link i post at end of this posting look carefully at the 2nd picture down you will see where it goes.
One end goes into the small hole in the steel tube called a plunger if you cannot see the hole you may have to turn that steel plunger until it faces you and the other end goes down lower and swivels the drum back and forth to sequence between moving engine forward and reverse.

Few posts up i read your motor still just hums if thats still the case its either 1 of 2 things the e-unit needs repair which one can do by following these instructions or your armature which is the piece that the brushes ride on that is shorted ie broken wire winding or broken solder joint there are 3 tabs on top of that copper plate to look at the solder joints.

Forgive me if i'm not supposed to post a link here as some forums do not allow
Here is link on how to clean e-unit and sine you motor now is apart it may be good idea to give it a 
going through.

http://dfarq.homeip.net/repair-marx-reverse-unit/
Good Luck


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

It might be a staple that got in there somehow?


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> 4G-Man - that piece fell out of the e-unit. in link i post at end of this posting look carefully at the 2nd picture down you will see where it goes.
> One end goes into the small hole in the steel tube called a plunger if you cannot see the hole you may have to turn that steel plunger until it faces you and the other end goes down lower and swivels the drum back and forth to sequence between moving engine forward and reverse.
> 
> Few posts up i read your motor still just hums if thats still the case its either 1 of 2 things the e-unit needs repair which one can do by following these instructions or your armature which is the piece that the brushes ride on that is shorted ie broken wire winding or broken solder joint there are 3 tabs on top of that copper plate to look at the solder joints.
> ...


Found it - wow, that was a booger! Do I need to oil that plunger?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I never worked on any Marx engines, I will keep that staple part in my mind.

The plunger should just be kept clean if you oil it it will collect dirt and dust and eventually stick.

Dieseler a link is OK to post.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Big Ed said:


> I never worked on any Marx engines, I will keep that staple part in my mind.
> 
> The plunger should just be kept clean if you oil it it will collect dirt and dust and eventually stick.
> 
> Dieseler a link is OK to post.


Thanks Ed, I will leave it dry.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you take it apart clean all the copper. Just polish the plunger.

Marx reverse


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

ugggg - that may be the ONLY thing I didn't do. This loco is cleaned, polished, and lubed, like a fine high end gun; and still it sits on tube track and goes "hummmmm". I put it in reverse and "hmmm". Other than polishing that plunger rod, I don't know what is left!?

Also, the three wires that solider to the windings on the armature are all connected. grrrrr 

It spins smoother like a well oiled machine - because it "is"!!! :dunno:


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

If you pull apart the reverse you can test the motor. The field has two wires, connect one to the top motor brush, now with two transformer wires connect one to the frame the other to the second wire on the coil.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

T-Man said:


> If you pull apart the reverse you can test the motor. The field has two wires, connect one to the top motor brush, now with two transformer wires connect one to the frame the other to the second wire on the coil.


Ok - now I have to actually start thinking... dang'et! I don't guess this has anything to do with it, does it? I have been trying it with cab off.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

T-Man said:


> If you pull apart the reverse you can test the motor. The field has two wires, connect one to the top motor brush, now with two transformer wires connect one to the frame the other to the second wire on the coil.


I've read it three times and almost there - dang close to getting it... got a picture?


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Assuming the reverse unit is clean, and you cleaned the spaces between the commutator plates, it sounds like the most likely culprit is a broken wire.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I think about everything is clean - but, what do you mean by "reverse unit"?


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

The component the staple-like part fell out of. Did you disassemble and clean that as well?

Harder than cleaning the motor, but if the locomotive just sits there and hums, either the fingers on the reverse unit are dirty or not making contact, or one of the wires between the motor and reverse unit is broken.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4G-Man said:


> Ok - now I have to actually start thinking... dang'et! I don't guess this has anything to do with it, does it? I have been trying it with cab off.


No thats is just a clip to hook a headlight wire to.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Not a super star when it come to electricity or electronics - but when I have my meter on ohms it says OL and if I touch the ends together it goes to 0.00. 

When I touch the two center contacts it goes form OL to 0.00 which makes me think the wires are good....:dunno:


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> The component the staple-like part fell out of. Did you disassemble and clean that as well?
> 
> Harder than cleaning the motor, but if the locomotive just sits there and hums, either the fingers on the reverse unit are dirty or not making contact, or one of the wires between the motor and reverse unit is broken.


No, I think that is the only place I did not go into, I will though. hwell:


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Edited


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> Edited


 I was reading and it disappeared!


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

I'm thinking the E unit is stuck or damaged ?
Dan


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Panther said:


> I'm thinking the E unit is stuck or damaged ?
> Dan


"E" unit - what is an E unit?


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Am I supposed to take this thing apart?


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

E unit and reverse unit are synonymous. That's the part that changes the locomotive's direction when you cycle the power.

I think someone already posted a link to my writeup on reverse units, but here it is just in case:

http://dfarq.homeip.net/repair-marx-reverse-unit/

Give yourself a couple of hours for this. It comes apart pretty easily but getting it back together can be tough. This part is more reliable than Lionel's version but it's a lot less reliable than the motor. All it takes is a little too much dirt or oxidation to foul it up.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

4G-Man said:


> Am I supposed to take this thing apart?


Yes, that's the part I detail taking apart and cleaning in the link I just posted. You probably don't have to take it completely apart.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Dave has a good link. The only way to help you more and faster is to skype. The information is all here but a marx service manual would be ideal.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Well I took it down to the bare bones, nothing else to come apart except unsoldering the wires. Reassembled and can just get a slight nudge out of it. It may be time to figure it to be a parts piece.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4G-Man said:


> Well I took it down to the bare bones, nothing else to come apart except unsoldering the wires. Reassembled and can just get a slight nudge out of it. It may be time to figure it to be a parts piece.



Your motor and everything is back together and all it does is just nudge on the track ?
You may try this with alligator clips if you have them one clip to metal frame body the other to pickup only without alligator clip touching any thing else or it will create a spark.
Try hooking transformer up to it elevated off a table without shell on 
wiggle some of the wires if it starts spinning the wheels and then stops it could be a loose solder joint or a wire partially broken.

Good thing is it nudged as you put it so its not dead just need some more trouble shooting.

In the end if you are determined to just make it a parts piece you can do 1 more thing.
Eliminate the e-unit(reverse unit).
How to do it is simple

Remove eunit (reverse unit) by un soldering pickup wire from it and the field wires

What is called "the field"? 
Its the windings that sit on top of the motor and has a wire coming out the top in the front of it another wire coming out the back also on the top.

The back wire of "the field" goes directly to the pickup wire the front wire goes directly to the top brush holder plate where those carbon brushes are.

This will make the motor run in 1 direction only if it spins backwards just reverse those 2 wires to make wheels spin the other way.

It should work and it will then tell you your problem was the e-unit(reverse unit).


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I haven't put the body back on yet, but it is all back together and that is all I get, a nudge. Ok, gotta take the boy to wrestling practice, will try that a little later.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Are the windings on the armature all good ?
And a dumb question maybe, BUT, are both brushed in and in good condition ?

Dan


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

4G-Man said:


> Am I supposed to take this thing apart?


That is the "E" Unit. I will unsolder the coil and remove it, but be careful. Then I deep clean the mechanism. NO OIL, on the plunger, but I do add a drop at the switch pivot.

ONE MORE MAJOR CONCERN. Does the motor turn freely, if the drivers are pressed on too far, they will lock up, and the motor will not run.

Dan


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

BWA said:


> That screw is actually below the armature, so, no issues there.
> 
> What it will hit though, is the center pickup, which would cause a dead short, so, a definite yes on making sure the screw is short enough....


I meant to write so it doesn't hit the third rail contact. Don't know why I wrote armature. I corrected it.
Make sure that screw is not so long that it hits the THIRD RAIL CONTACT. Not the armature like I wrote before. Remember the third rail contact will move up when on the track, so if it clears when off the track, just push it lightly with your finger to insure clearance.
Dan


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Is this loco AC or DC? The temp transformer has an AC and a DC side....


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Was designed as an AC motor, but, will run on DC as well. It won't reverse on DC though.....


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

It's a stubborn sucker; acts like it wants to go but just can't do it. How do I know if the brushes are still good? They are the same all the way through aren't they?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

Here's an obscure thought, if you are using that small brown colored transformer in one of your pics, it may not have enough power to run an O gauge loco.

Just a thought, almost everything else seems to have been checked, looked at, gone over, etc.

Just grabbing at straws here now......


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Glad you noticed it, that is the first time I've tried to use it, I will get my O transformer back there.


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## Chinewalker (Jan 29, 2016)

In trouble shooting a Marx motor from one of my 999s, I had an issue of brushes not making good contact with the armature. I discovered this with test leads to the frame and pickup shoe. The motor would hum, but not run. I touched the brushes one at a time with a pencil tip and it took off! If I released the pressure from the one brush, it would stop. Come to find out the spring was bent just wonky enough that it wouldn't keep pressure on the brush.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Chinewalker said:


> In trouble shooting a Marx motor from one of my 999s, I had an issue of brushes not making good contact with the armature. I discovered this with test leads to the frame and pickup shoe. The motor would hum, but not run. I touched the brushes one at a time with a pencil tip and it took off! If I released the pressure from the one brush, it would stop. Come to find out the spring was bent just wonky enough that it wouldn't keep pressure on the brush.


I'll try that


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I had it running while holding it in the air, no weight restriction but then the stupid alligator clip moved and grounded out. So, good news is - it wants badly to work.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4G-Man said:


> It's a stubborn sucker; acts like it wants to go but just can't do it. How do I know if the brushes are still good? They are the same all the way through aren't they?


Long as they are not caked up with grease an oil they should be fine and are set down with the little spring that sits on top of them.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

I just tried an ho tranformer i had laying around and holding a marx engine in the air the wheels barely move on dc current turned all the way up switched same ho transformer to ac voltage and same thing.
The transformer was much to weak to power it.

Tried it on a marx motor that i had previously removed the reverse unit and the wheels did spin a tad bit faster but if it was put into a engine shell it would probably barely move.

Hopefully your O gauge transformer will bring it back to life.

If not there is always the option to wire motor direct without the reverse unit and this will tell you if the reverse unit has a underlying problem preventing the motor from getting full power.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> Long as they are not caked up with grease an oil they should be fine and are set down with the little spring that sits on top of them.


I cleaned them yesterday, hopefully not too much; I used CRC electrical cleaner and it turned my little rag black, a lot.

They are touching the face of the armature and the little springs are applying pressure. I even pushed on them. Now I can't get the wheels to go on their own even up in the air. I look down inside and can see blue spark in the area where the brushes meet the armature - is that ok?


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> I just tried an ho tranformer i had laying around and holding a marx engine in the air the wheels barely move on dc current turned all the way up switched same ho transformer to ac voltage and same thing.
> The transformer was much to weak to power it.
> 
> Tried it on a marx motor that i had previously removed the reverse unit and the wheels did spin a tad bit faster but if it was put into a engine shell it would probably barely move.


How can one little engine make such a big mess?  this is the transformer I am using now.


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

HaHa, that should do it......


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

AC power


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes you will see some sparking there , that transformer will be proper yes.
Let us know what happens.

Also as i mentioned earlier post if it does nothing before relegating it to a parts piece remove the reverse unit and take note of which wires go to it in case you want to rehook them but they have to be unsoldered to do what is written below.

Hook up those 2 wires coming out the top of the field they have that shiny insulation on them , one wire to pickup wire one wire to wire coming of your brush plate.

No need to solder them at first just twist them together good to then test motor.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Its not working, it really wants to, just don't have it in it.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

One tidbit of information that may be helpful. The green light on the transformer flashes like when a train is derailed. Even with that it is still trying to go.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Brushes may be too short. Or the motor is so worn the armature is rubbing against the fields. So I suggest take pictures of the wiring and unsolder the reverse unit and test the motor as I explained earlier. WIred from transformer to field. Other field to brush. The other brush (bottom) to transformer. WIth that it should run.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Here is a picture of the brushes and the armature


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Here if unsure how to wire it from the field.
1 field wire to pickup wire
1 field wire to brush tube,

Test on track or with leads from transformer to power pickup and 1 then to motor frame.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> Here if unsure how to wire it from the field.
> 1 field wire to pickup wire
> 1 field wire to brush tube,
> 
> Test on track or with leads from transformer to power pickup and 1 then to motor frame.


Ok, that will be on my list for tomorrow - wife has me slaving right now


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

So if the motor is running hot, I can see the CW-80 cutting out.

Silly question, maybe: After you reassembled the motor, did you put oil on the axles and grease the gears?

Another possibility: if the brushes are worn in the other direction, they may not be making very good contact with the armature. Try bending one spring back and rotate the brush with a slotted screwdriver 180 degrees and see if that changes how the motor runs. Then try the other and see if it runs better still.

Sometimes these old motors need a little help to run at first, then once the lubricants permeate a bit they run fine.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

In this photo you posted early on is that solder lug ball piece thats under the lever touch or barely touching the top of the motor side plate?
If so thats will make motor hum and create a short.

Tomorrow when you get a chance look at it if its touching just lift it off there carefully or move the solder lug over a tad bit be careful as there is a wire attached to it and retest it before taking out the reverse unit as that would defintely make motor not work properly.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> So if the motor is running hot, I can see the CW-80 cutting out.
> 
> Silly question, maybe: After you reassembled the motor, did you put oil on the axles and grease the gears?
> 
> ...


the motor has not been hot or even warm to touch. I did oil and grease the axels and armature spindle, it turns very freely; when I started this thing was for the most part locked up. I think it has seen the outdoors at some point in its life.

I can try to turn the brushes 180 - good easy idea!

Funny, because once today it took to running and the stupid alligator clip on the center pickup tilted and touched the side, after that it went back to humming. I've since taken the shoe off and clip right to the flat tab, the shoes flopped around too much.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> In this photo you posted early on is that solder lug ball piece thats under the lever touch or barely touching the top of the motor side plate?
> If so thats will make motor hum and create a short.
> 
> Tomorrow when you get a chance look at it if its touching just lift it off there carefully or move the solder lug over a tad bit be careful as there is a wire attached to it and retest it before taking out the reverse unit as that would defintely make motor not work properly.


Nope, the picture does indicates a close and possible connection, but it has plenty of clearance


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> So if the motor is running hot, I can see the CW-80 cutting out.


BTW what is "CW-80"?


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## Chinewalker (Jan 29, 2016)

4G-Man said:


> BTW what is "CW-80"?


Your transformer... Lionel model CW-80...


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4-G,

Instead of hooking alligator clip to pickup and having it bounce around shorting you can hook it up to to spring clip on reverse unit where i mentioned your headlight wire clips into its called a terminal or fastenhor clip, other alligator clip to metal frame for ground.

Check how tall your brushed sit in there position should be about 80% in brush holder tube if they are real tall they are probably lionel brushes and a tad bit to tall putting too much pressure on the armature , if thats the case you can file the bottom of them down some and reinsert.


I know you are trying a lot of suggestions by folks here in this thread but they are all good as it is a process of elimination for i believe its something rather simple stopping that motor from running for your armature looks very good.

The reverse could be questionable and known if bad by temporarily taken out and wired motor for 1 direction to find that out as i have shown in picture or by the other poster who mentioned how to wire it.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> So if the motor is running hot, I can see the CW-80 cutting out.
> 
> Silly question, maybe: After you reassembled the motor, did you put oil on the axles and grease the gears?
> 
> ...


The brushes are .254 and .258 in length; however they will be just a touch shorter directly, I am going to take a fine file to the armature end. Just trying to eliminate things before I remove the reversing unit


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

The armature looked clean in one picture . A 300 grit finish will work but a 400 is better if you use sandpaper. You do want it level and I like to remove ring grooves . The armatures I work on do not have a gear on the end so I can mount them on a drill and spin sand, This is just a reconditioning and not intended to be done frequently the copper will wear out Be carefull of the wire connections to each plate.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

These motors are extremely sturdy. I still believe it's something very simple, just overlooked.
I say an open or shorted coil, or a broken wire. Use Emory clothe on the armature NOT a file.
BTW, the motors are AC, I think you will get a similar situation you are experiencing if you apply DC.
Dan


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

They run just fine on DC, you just can't reverse them when running on DC.....


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I used a fine Styrofoam file on the armature and other brass and copper components. I just scraped the brushes on a fine metal file, just a couple of swipes and it lunged again then stopped. I need to get a vise to hold it in the air while I have power to it so I can test things, if it takes to working it will take off. I guess I could have left the wheels off. I will tinker with the brushes a little more then take it back apart. I fear the little twist tabs will begin to break if I take it apart too many times, they are surely getting tired of twisting.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes if you can elevate motor and test with power remember you can hook the power lead off transformer to the terminal clip on back of reverse unit where you headlight wire goes it may be easier than fussing around with it on the wiggly shoe under motor then gently move some of wires to see if it will run suddenly fast it could be a loose solder joint and or tiny broken insulation touching metal and giving it a short. Have had that happen and its a pain to trouble shoot but once figured out......

I'm thinking it may be the reverse units copper springs that ride on the drum's copper segments too much pressure or not enough can be a problem but if your tabs are getting fatique i would eventually remove reverse unit as a last resort it will then probably run 200mph.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> Yes if you can elevate motor and test with power remember you can hook the power lead off transformer to the terminal clip on back of reverse unit where you headlight wire goes it may be easier than fussing around with it on the wiggly shoe under motor then gently move some of wires to see if it will run suddenly fast it could be a loose solder joint and or tiny broken insulation touching metal and giving it a short. Have had that happen and its a pain to trouble shoot but once figured out......
> 
> I'm thinking it may be the reverse units copper springs that ride on the drum's copper segments too much pressure or not enough can be a problem but if your tabs are getting fatique i would eventually remove reverse unit as a last resort it will then probably run 200mph.


I had taken that drum apart and cleaned all the brass; better than in this picture.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4-G
Looking at your post above in picture of the dissembled reverse unit i now see several problems.
The black half moon shape piece in the middle red circle suppose to have 2 not 1 copper segments attached.

I do not see the 2 long straight copper spring assembly that ride on those 2 copper segments.
If thats them in the bottom red circle there no good as they are badly mishappen.

If this is the case your reverse unit is definitely no good you would need a good used one or you can remove it and just wire motor as mentioned before.

If i'm wrong in what i see in your picture i apologize.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Here in this link http://dfarq.homeip.net/repair-marx-reverse-unit/
look at the 4th picture you will see what the springs look like that ride on top of the black drum assembly and that drum has 2 copper segments as well on for each spring.

I had one apart a few months ago im sure the marx reverse units are all the same except one not so common that came right after the windups marx and has a lever on top to manually operate the reverse unit in a marx commodore vanderbuilt.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok - here is some info, pulled this sucker back apart and did some testing. I powered it up, I could see the armature lunge and I could also see the reverse plunger functioning due to the staple operating when I pressed the "Direction" button on the controller. At one point the motor took off and spun like a champ, then quit again. It's trying hard to go, the reverse mechanism seems to operate....:dunno:


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> 4-G
> Looking at your post above in picture of the dissembled reverse unit i now see several problems.
> The black half moon shape piece in the middle red circle suppose to have 2 not 1 copper segments attached.
> 
> ...





Dieseler said:


> Here in this link http://dfarq.homeip.net/repair-marx-reverse-unit/
> look at the 4th picture you will see what the springs look like that ride on top of the black drum assembly and that drum has 2 copper segments as well on for each spring.
> 
> I had one apart a few months ago im sure the marx reverse units are all the same except one not so common that came right after the windups marx and has a lever on top to manually operate the reverse unit in a marx commodore vanderbuilt.


On that crescent piece - yes there are two connecting tabs. In your picture 4, I noticed that earlier when you posted that link. Mine only had one. I thought maybe that was an option, maybe something to do with lighting or something, but mine only has one.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4-G , yes the plunger will operate when power is given cycling making the staple move the drum as the coil the plunger sits inside gets magnetized when power is applied moving the plunger up and down , the staple attached to plunger therefore will move the drum one way first and will go in a direction next cycle the the drum moves the other way.

It makes its direction corresponding to the way the springs are in or out of one of the contacts thus the need to have both contacts, along with that the spring pressure on top of those drum contacts also plays a role to much and it will give problems too little the same thing.

I do believe you reverse unit is no good at this point especially missing one of the contacts.
Your motor does spin at times and removing the e-unit will make it work but in one direction only as mentioned before.
Its a 2 wire hookup only .


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

The lionel reverse unit is more complicated as it has 2 sets with 4 fingers each total of 8 copper fingers that ride on a drum .
It cycles Forward / Neutral then into reverse.

I have rebuilt them buying new sets of fingers and new drums it just has more parts to it and not as easy to work on.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I assume this wire and the one directly across from it are the ones to disconnect? Do I need to tie them together or can I just tape the up and leave alone?


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> 4-G , .................. thus the need to have both contacts, along with that the spring pressure on top of those drum contacts also plays a role to much and it will give problems too little the same thing.
> 
> I do believe you reverse unit is no good at this point especially missing one of the contacts.
> Your motor does spin at times and removing the e-unit will make it work but in one direction only as mentioned before.
> Its a 2 wire hookup only .


It does not appear it ever had that additional finger, maybe I should send it back in for faulty workmanship for warranty. :rippedhand:


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

The back wire in your picture that has the shiny insulated jacket goes to the power wire follow the power wire off the pickup its soldered onto the reverse unit toward the bottom in front of unit.

Unsolder from reverse unit and twist that shiny wire to it.

The other shiny wire goes to the top brush on you brush plate . 

Before soldering them just twist them and test which way motor spins if wrong switch the 2 shiny wires and it will spin the other way.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Mine has three wires - two shiny ones on the outsides that go to each side of the coil winding on the very top of the loco and one in the middle, the dull one and it goes to the top brush. The only other wire is in the front, comes from the pickup shoes to where you said a headlight could have gone, no headlight though on this one.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Twist the wire from brush to the back shiny wire.
Hook the front shiny wire to the pickup.
Then your done.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Here is picture i posted earlier in this thread if you wire it like this your motor should run like the dickens.
The 2 wires come out the top assembly whats called the field 
1 to pickup.
1 to top brush -- (not the bottom brush as that has the ground screw going into steel body . )
No other wires.

)


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I think he is going for the longest thread.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dieseler said:


> Twist the wire from brush to the back shiny wire.
> Hook the front shiny wire to the pickup.
> Then your done.


Got it going! :thumbsup: you are correct, that thing is a screaming machine!!!

thank you Dieseler and everyone else for hanging in there with me and not letting me toss in the towel on this dude; I have learned a lot!

So as the reverse unit sat there, I took it back apart and I stand corrected, there are two of those fingers in there. And the little copper pieces that fit over the cam, are those supposed to fit on there tight, in those three little groves? Mine would not be tight, they'd be flopping all around on it.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

T-Man said:


> I think he is going for the longest thread.


Ya, I don't even have a beat up old Marx, I was just trying to get a promotion!  - joking - just joking; but really, it did turn into quite the thread.


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

4G-Man said:


> Got it going! :thumbsup: you are correct, that thing is a screaming machine!!!
> 
> thank you Dieseler and everyone else for hanging in there with me and not letting me toss in the towel on this dude; I have learned a lot!
> 
> So as the reverse unit sat there, I took it back apart and I stand corrected, there are two of those fingers in there. And the little copper pieces that fit over the cam, are those supposed to fit on there tight, in those three little groves? Mine would not be tight, they'd be flopping all around on it.


Yes they are . You can reinstall unit non working for the added weight only only as it will help the traction some when pulling cars.

Your welcome as everyone in thread deserves credit for helping you and perhaps others that read thread in the little things to look for when a motor is troublesome.
I'm by far no expert just been around tinkering with marx and older lionel for many years.

Enjoy.


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Have you definitively determined the 'E' unit is bad ? Is the coil open, or just the wire broken off short. You can remove the coil wrapping, and retrieve the end of the wire, strip the varnish off the ends and resolder in place. They are pretty simple devices, and never had one with a mechanical malfunction. Usually coil wire broken. Once you get the coil wires out, I use a bit of glue to glue the wires to the coil, then re-wrap with masking tape. 

Dan


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

Panther
I can't speak for 4-G but that wire you speak had to been in place as the coil was getting magnetized when power applied and pulling the plunger up if that wire was broken or unsoldered that coil itself would not do that particular function, i understand the wire you speak of as i have dug some out in past under the coils paper wrap.

In looking at his pictures i noticed a copper segment missing on the drum along with the the 2 fingers bent up and loose just flopping around. 

Yes the Marx reverse unit is a simple device compared to other manufactures but his was missing a segement on top of the cam and the 2 copper fingers that ride on it were no good as well.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I think all the parts and pieces are there for the E unit and I believe the electrical components are all functioning correctly because the staple would function when I went from forward to reverse. The copper pieces do not fit snugly on the cam, they would rotate to the side and I think causing the short. It does have both little copper fingers in there also. I will take a couple pics.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Here are the E parts laid out, and I ended up breaking the corner off that stupid plastic piece. The one picture shows how sloppy the terminals fit on the cam


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

Yep, there's your problem. You can get by with some slop on that cam, but not that much. You can see the grooves where the copper segments go. If you can't get them to stay in place by reshaping the copper, try putting a drop of glue on the underside to hold it together.

When you put it all back together be sure to bend the copper fingers down so they make good contact with the cam.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> Yep, there's your problem. You can get by with some slop on that cam, but not that much. You can see the grooves where the copper segments go. If you can't get them to stay in place by reshaping the copper, try putting a drop of glue on the underside to hold it together.
> 
> When you put it all back together be sure to bend the copper fingers down so they make good contact with the cam.


I was wondering if I could glue them. Ya, they will not stay in their groves, they slide easily, I even tried to squash them in place and the got too distorted for my liking. I may get bored one evening and put everything back together.

Will that broken plastic side piece matter?


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## BWA (Jun 16, 2012)

That material glues pretty well with some thin CA..

Put the pieces together first, and, just run a bit of CA along the join. Should suck itself through real easy......


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

BWA said:


> That material glues pretty well with some thin CA..
> 
> Put the pieces together first, and, just run a bit of CA along the join. Should suck itself through real easy......


CA???  I'd say "whatchyoutalk'nbout Willis" but Lee would probably think I lost it.


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## Dave Farquhar (Feb 20, 2013)

CA is super glue. Cyanoacrylate is the chemical name for it so people often refer to it as "CA" or "Cya."

I don't think the broken plastic side piece will matter too much. You might want to glue it as well. It won't be super strong but I think it will hold.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

ha. Ok, it says you're from the Midwest, but here in OK we just call it super glue


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Just for future reference, I have rebuilt maybe 50 Marx motors, and never had to disassemble the 'E' Unit to that point. I completely disassemble the motor, and place the entire thing into a can of Carburetor cleaner for 30 minutes MAX. Clean all parts after with soap and warm water, then spray dry with compressed air. I would look for another 'E' on eBay, they can run anywhere up to 10 to 15 dollars. The 490 is not a high end Locomotive, and a good one to learn on. I have purchased minty 490's for under $15.00 though.

Dan


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

Dieseler said:


> 4G-Man - that piece fell out of the e-unit. in link i post at end of this posting look carefully at the 2nd picture down you will see where it goes.
> One end goes into the small hole in the steel tube called a plunger if you cannot see the hole you may have to turn that steel plunger until it faces you and the other end goes down lower and swivels the drum back and forth to sequence between moving engine forward and reverse.
> 
> Few posts up i read your motor still just hums if thats still the case its either 1 of 2 things the e-unit needs repair which one can do by following these instructions or your armature which is the piece that the brushes ride on that is shorted ie broken wire winding or broken solder joint there are 3 tabs on top of that copper plate to look at the solder joints.
> ...


Dave's tutorial is excellent.
Dan


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Loco's look good Panther. Its been an enjoyable project as long as I haven't burned you all out too much. I went and bought some CA glue (aka: super glue). I am going to give it whirl just to - well, give it a whirl.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Glued them little terminals onto the cam; the middle one is higher than the two on the outsides - is that correct or are they all supposed to be the same? I may have distorted them some messing with them.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Panther said:


> Dave's tutorial is excellent.
> Dan


We have our own reverse unit tutorial in the O forum troubleshooting section. It has better pictures too! I ought know I took them!:smokin:

Marx Reverse Unit


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## Dieseler (Jan 29, 2014)

It may be or look a little higher because of the curve of the black assembly on the which they sit on, just serviced one today from a cv i had bought that was just moving the plunger and drum and would not spin motor.

Took it out and removed bottom portion and the the 2 finger contact , segments and drum had a lot of gunk on them.

CRC safe for plastic fixed it.
Was a used ebay purchase but now running well.

4-G i did see one for 12.00 free shipping on the bay if yours still fails to work or at least you know 
motor runs 1 way.
Also as poster Panther mentioned the 490 can be had for little more than an e-unit if your patient and keep looking.
Least your having fun tinkering and learning a few things along the way.
Good luck


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

rkenney said:


> We have our own reverse unit tutorial in the O forum troubleshooting section. It has better pictures too! I ought know I took them!:smokin:
> 
> Marx Reverse Unit


Good deal!



Dieseler said:


> It may be or look a little higher because of the curve of the black assembly on the which they sit on, just serviced one today from a cv i had bought that was just moving the plunger and drum and would not spin motor.
> 
> Took it out and removed bottom portion and the the 2 finger contact , segments and drum had a lot of gunk on them.
> 
> ...


Ya, I am not particular after one of these engines it is just something the wife drug home from some flea-market type deal. To be honest, I never realized it was a "real" train until you guys corrupted me and turned me into an Oaholic


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## Panther (Oct 5, 2015)

rkenney said:


> We have our own reverse unit tutorial in the O forum troubleshooting section. It has better pictures too! I ought know I took them!:smokin:
> 
> Marx Reverse Unit


Bob;
Those are fantastic photos.
Great close ups. great tutorial also.

Dan


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Well, I have CA'd the pieces and reassembled the E unit, and by-the-way, why is it called an "E" unit and not an "R" unit for "reverse"? *Second* question - I got the engine running good in forward, should I reinstall this E unit and see if everything works now?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

4G-Man said:


> Well, I have CA'd the pieces and reassembled the E unit, and by-the-way, why is it called an "E" unit and not an "R" unit for "reverse"? *Second* question - I got the engine running good in forward, should I reinstall this E unit and see if everything works now?


Marx did call it a "reverse" unit. E-unit is something we merely become accustomed to from hanging around Lionel too long.

Lionel also made an 'E-unit' that only reversed (no neutral).


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

:goofball:Help.....:goofball:

Ok, so I reinstalled the E Unit and it'd work then not work, it go forward and reverse then nowhere. Here is what I have discovered - 

the E Unit solenoid is operating the plunger fine the staple is moving fine but the cam moves too far for it to all come back.

It must be moving while the train is running also. If I manually center the cam it will go great then stop. I look at the cam and it is too far tilted. I manually move it and it goes great again, stops and the cam is too far. I watch the plunger and staple when I go from forward to reverse and it appears to be functioning fine, but I think the cam is just too far rotated :dunno:


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

The 'cam' as you call it motion is limited by the lower metal bracket that holds the two fiberboard halves togethter.

If you look at the pictures I posted you can see where the channel shaped metal bracket's upper edges stop the 'cam' from moving past a right or left position'

There seem several other possibilities to me; 

Is the cam loose where it is sandwiched between the two side contacts (Will it move on its own)? If so, disassemble and gently increase the tension by bending the side contacts slightly inward.

Are the 'finger contacts clean and making good contact with the cam. Again disassemble and adjust or clean as needed.

A helpful practice with small mechanical assemblies is to photograph every step going in and coming out. When things don't work out the first time (which is often the case) your photographic record can reveal things you might have overlooked before you go back in.

When all else fails you can post pictures to describe and help illustrate the difficulty.


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Here is an assembled picture of the Marx reversing unit.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I am back from a vacation and see some progress. I am glad the engine runs:thumbsup: My offer to skype still holds.


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## jimtone (Nov 11, 2014)

Dave Farquhar said:


> That's a postwar 198 that was originally a windup and someone put an older prewar motor in it. The nice thing about Marx is that so many parts were interchangeable.
> 
> And yes, your Lionel transformer will be fine. Just don't turn the voltage up over 14 volts.
> 
> ...


 NAILED IT!


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

rkenney said:


> Here is an assembled picture of the Marx reversing unit.
> 
> View attachment 265185
> 
> ...


Very interesting - see my cam seems too small, it goes right past that bracket. Also, the copper contacts that go on it, see how they fit on that cam real tight (in the second picture) mine stick up. In a couple post back I kinda referred to that saying how they stuck up high and wondered if I'd distorted them, but I don't think so. I remember taking it apart the first time and they'd flop around and overlap each other. It's like the cam is too small. I will disassemble again and snap a picture.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

T-Man said:


> I am back from a vacation and see some progress. I am glad the engine runs:thumbsup: My offer to skype still holds.


I don't have Skype


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok these pictures are bad blurry. But maybe you can see what I am talking about. The cam is in the hole and I can literally spin in 360 degrees and it will not hit anything. Also in the one with just the cam, if you look through the blur you can see how the copper contact is sticking up fairly high off the cam, especially the single one that goes in the center


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

I guess I could take the contacts off, I'd have to make the first 90 degree bend down closer to the hole, then lay it across the cam and make a new bend down, but I think I'd end up with enough extra material it'd touch the other contact in the "Y". I did squash the outside ones to fit "pretty" close but that single center one is fairly high off the cam


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Another blurry picture but I just noticed something else different from that picture above. notice the copper eyelet part of my cam connection - my copper piece is bigger around than the cam area, where the one above you can still see cam meat where the copper clips onto the pin. - make sense?


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

Can't see the cam real good. From what I can see that part's been modified in some way.

I'd say your best bet is simply to buy a reverse unit on ebay. I see them separately from time to time. or you could simply wire the motor up with a switch or not (It only goes forward - the switch you could go one direction or the other).

Opposite to Lionel, Marx motors have the armature windings grounded at one of the brushes and switch the field winding leads to change direction. Either way would work with a DPDT switch.









Found this image online. Looks like it will work.


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Ya those pictures are blurry, all I have in my iPhone 6 camera and I am not a good photographer type. I will look far an e-unit on eBay. I already had removed the unit once and it worked fine but I just like things to work like they are supposed to. And - I am only messing with this for fun (so why is it so aggravating ).


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## rkenney (Aug 10, 2013)

4G-Man said:


> I am only messing with this for fun (so why is it so aggravating ).


You answered that in the preceding sentence!



> I just like things to work like they are supposed to.


:smilie_daumenpos:

About 12 bucks on the bay.

Evil-Bay 1

Evil-Bay 2


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## 4G-Man (Jan 2, 2014)

Ok - I think this one beat me down, I will order a new e unit and give this beat up old Marx forward and reverse life once again.


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