# New Guy Needs Help! Vintage O-Gauge Ground Problem!



## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

Greetings!

Can anyone please point me to where I might find some information about what I think is a ground issue with an old standard gauge layout Lionel setup I am trying to repair for my father? He has had this set since I think the 50's, and we have used it many times over the years, but setting it up recently, I have encountered a problem that I have experienced only in part before.

The issue is this: We have the old Lionel ZW transformer, and when everything is powered up on our double loop (inner and outer) track, only part of the inner loop works. If I raise the lever that would give power to the outer loop, the lights all begin to dim. I have experienced the dimming lights before and recall it as a ground issue, although I think the only thing that ever caused this for us was having a train not properly on the track. In all the years we have had this we have never had part of the track not work. I assume there are wires crossed, or disconnected, or insulation is cracked and causing one of the above problems. I am a bit stumped as to where or how to start?

Thank you!
Peter.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

If the tracks are connected together at a crossover point or switch, make sure your inner rail is connected to the "hot" wire and the outer rails are the ground wire (I think it would be connected to the "U" terminal of the transformer) on both tracks. If you mix them up you may get the short you are describing.

Another thing I'd be curious to know about is what you are trying to power. It sounds like you have more than just the train connected to it. If that's the case, you may want to disconnect some things one at a time and see if the problem goes away. You might just not have enough power for everything.


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Peter,

First this is does your ZW have a circut breaker in it? Are you having to reset
the breaker? IF you are having to reset the breaker you got a dead short in
the system. Could be something weird like the paper insulator under the
middle rail is worn through. go to last paragraph for help on that one. But 
mostly just a misconnected wire. 

Beyond that the center rails are usually connected to the hot post
and the outer rail to the U post like santefe158 stated above.

Second thing is the a perment layout with the track piece screwed down to
the layout? If not you can just take out sections of track to isolate the 
problem. If so get out a mulitimeter and start checking voltages. Start 
right at the transformer and get a base reading and slowly work out from
there. Leave your one lead on the U post and keep checking the center
rail on each piece of track. Voltage difference should be close to the same.
Where the voltage difference drops that is where the problem lies.

Pookybear


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

Electrical stuff is not my expertise, but it kind of sounds like an AC-power phasing issue to me. I'm wondering if the crossover between the inner and outer loops is transferring a "+" power pulse to a "-" power pulse. Might the fix be as simple as just flipping the power leads that go to one of the loops? I.e., flip the wire that goes to the center rail with the one that goes to the outer rail, and vice-versa.

OK, guys ... I said I wasn't electrically savvy ... shoot me down here ...

TJ


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*response to Santafe158*

_If the tracks are connected together at a crossover point or switch, make sure your inner rail is connected to the "hot" wire and the outer rails are the ground wire (I think it would be connected to the "U" terminal of the transformer) on both tracks. If you mix them up you may get the short you are describing.

Another thing I'd be curious to know about is what you are trying to power. It sounds like you have more than just the train connected to it. If that's the case, you may want to disconnect some things one at a time and see if the problem goes away. You might just not have enough power for everything. _

The odd thing is, this train has been set up this way unchanged for 50 or so years, so no wires should be going to the "wrong" place, but they certainly could be crossed due to worn insulation, etc. I am powering some other things through additional terminals, (all the tracks are on terminal D with nothing else on that post) and I will try disconnecting all other things, but again, since the train has been run this exact same way for years, I would be surprised if this were the issue. Removing other short possibilities would be a good idea so I will try this.

Thanks,
Peter.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*response to pookybear*

_First this is does your ZW have a circut breaker in it? Are you having to reset
the breaker? IF you are having to reset the breaker you got a dead short in
the system. Could be something weird like the paper insulator under the
middle rail is worn through. go to last paragraph for help on that one. But
mostly just a misconnected wire.
_

Yes, it does have a breaker that automatically resets if the power is turned to 0 and the issue isn't present when turned back on, and this happens if I turn the lever controlling the outer tracks' power up to operating level.

_Beyond that the center rails are usually connected to the hot post
and the outer rail to the U post like santefe158 stated above.

Second thing is this a permanent layout with the track piece screwed down to
the layout? If not you can just take out sections of track to isolate the
problem. If so get out a multimeter and start checking voltages. Start
right at the transformer and get a base reading and slowly work out from
there. Leave your one lead on the U post and keep checking the center
rail on each piece of track. Voltage difference should be close to the same.
Where the voltage difference drops that is where the problem lies.
_

This is a permanent layout. Oddly, the inner track works fine, and all the lights and switches work fine, and yet I get a voltage reading right at the transformer that seems awfully low, barely registering less than 1 volt. Some of the insulation on the wires for the inner to outer track switches is cracked and chipping away in a few places, but all the switches are working fine. Obviously I need to replace these wires but since the switches are all working fine I assume these are not my current issue?

Thanks,
Peter.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*response to tjcruiser*

_Electrical stuff is not my expertise, but it kind of sounds like an AC-power phasing issue to me. I'm wondering if the crossover between the inner and outer loops is transferring a "+" power pulse to a "-" power pulse. Might the fix be as simple as just flipping the power leads that go to one of the loops? I.e., flip the wire that goes to the center rail with the one that goes to the outer rail, and vice-versa._

This is getting out of my league, but since this setup has been unchanged for 50 years and most of the connections have never been undone, and the few that are, are all labeled very well, (my dad is like that with a capital T) I'm reluctant to think this is the issue, but thank you for weighing in.

~Peter.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You can check to see if transformer phasing is the issue. Using a 12 volt light bulb with a couple of leads from it, go around and test each separate segment common to all the others. If any two light the bulb brightly, you have a phasing issue.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*Response to gunrunnerjohn~*



gunrunnerjohn said:


> You can check to see if transformer phasing is the issue. Using a 12 volt light bulb with a couple of leads from it, go around and test each separate segment common to all the others. If any two light the bulb brightly, you have a phasing issue.


This sounds great, but I don't get enough detail to do what you're suggesting. Please remember while I have been around this set my whole life, I know very little about these. I've fixed many things, but electricity is not something I've done a lot with.

Thanks,
Peter.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*A possible issue?*

I just tried something. I pulled all the power cords that go to the 4 inner/outer track Y switches. All the bulbs went out except one, #4, and it gets brighter if I bring up the lever that gives power to the inner track to drive the train there. I will have to investigate.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*Stumped again*

So,

Having removed all wires associated with track switch #4 and the bulb still stays lit, and the 2 switches that are supposed to turn on and off power to the inner and outer track do nothing, I am a bit stumped. I realize it must be getting power from the track, and must somehow have a worn insulation issue, but before I go dismantling anything I hope to hear back from someone.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks!
Peter.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*Stranger Still....*

Oddly, The light in Track Sw #4 stays on if all common connections are removed. The source of power seems to be post A, which no surprise powers the inner track where Sw #4 is. If I remove the wires from post B and C the light goes off, but I have to remove both B and C, as either one will light it again. Post D is for the Outer Track power. Hmmmm........


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

It's hard for me to visualize this without a photo or diagram of your setup, but ...

Normally, a layout that's broken up into "block powered sections" has insulating pins used between the connecting switches. Is it possible you have something bridging across the insulating pins electrically?

Also, you say that your two switches that are supposed to turn block power on/off do nothing. Switches can go bad. Is it possible that one (or both) of these are not working?

Post a few photos, if you can.

TJ


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*My Train Layout Picture....*


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

coaltrane said:


>



That is not standard gauge that is O gauge or O/27.
Standard gauge is a lot bigger track.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

Look for a small nail, pin, etc wedged under the rail that would short it out. 

Look at the track where you have insulated pins, make sure the pins are set right and the rail is not touching the other rail defeating the insulated pin.

Unhook electric one at a time for everything you have hooked up. If something is shorting out by process of elimination you will find the short.

Unhook the switches too, to check. Before you do check the wiring carefully first, make sure the connections and wire are good.

By all means check the insulating paper under the hot rail too. Though it is sometimes hard to pin point the problem area by eye. It is better to test it.

edit, 
it could very well be the brittle, hard, cracked wiring. Especially if it is touching metal somewhere.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's standard O-gauge, he has 022 switches.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

Sorry! I thought I had researched this well enough to know what size track I had! I thought the only track with 3 rails was standard, obviously not.
Thanks,
Peter.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

If the layout is 50+ years old, you may want to consider rewiring the layout anyway. The insulation tends to dry out and crack and there is a strong possibility that it's causing your problem.

It's a great example of a postwar style layout though (and is actually from that period of time). Hope you get the bugs worked out.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

Hello,

I just connected with a train repair expert in St Paul who is helping me over the phone, so I hope I can sort this out. I'll post with any news...

Thanks for all your great input!

Peter.


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## pookybear (Feb 3, 2011)

Peter,

Well it does sound like something has found a new path for power with
the one light on like it is. Try the good old fashion wiggle test. As you
have stated the poor condition of the wires. 

Works just like it sounds, grab some wires and give them a gentle wiggle
it the condition changes you are close to the problem.

Pookybear


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*Figured it Out!*

Too funny and all too simple. After many hours of trouble shooting, drawing up a full schematic and checking it twice, pulling track apart and checking it from the start one piece at a time for about a dozen pieces, I finally realized that the main track power clip had come undone, and I or someone had replaced it so the outside rail was the hot rail. Duh. Moving it one rail over fixed everything. Thanks for all your help!
Peter.


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## tjcruiser (Jan 10, 2010)

tjcruiser said:


> Electrical stuff is not my expertise, but it kind of sounds like an AC-power phasing issue to me. I'm wondering if the crossover between the inner and outer loops is transferring a "+" power pulse to a "-" power pulse. Might the fix be as simple as just flipping the power leads that go to one of the loops? I.e., flip the wire that goes to the center rail with the one that goes to the outer rail, and vice-versa.





coaltrane said:


> I finally realized that the main track power clip had come undone, and I or someone had replaced it so the outside rail was the hot rail. Duh. Moving it one rail over fixed everything.


Well, well, well ... 

Glad it was an easy fix, Peter! Now get those train's runnin' !

TJ


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

Hello again,

My dad has decided to sell his trains. They are currently on ebay if anyone is interested, listed as "Lionel O Gauge Post War Complete Train Set w/Platform".

Thanks for everyone's help again!
Peter.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Here's the auction, sitting at $510 right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-O-Gauge-...915966?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19c7f52bfe


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Well someone really wants it.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Notice that the guy doing all the bidding has no feedback on eBay, normally a red flag.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

I think you would have got more if you pieced it out.
Sell all and the track too, throw away the board.

You have a lot of interest for a local Pu only. 

Plus the newbie is raising the bid, do you know him?

I didn't add up all the values, but think you would have done better piecing it out.


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## tooter (Feb 26, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Notice that the guy doing all the bidding has no feedback on eBay, normally a red flag.


It is, John... shill bidding is unethical. :thumbsdown:

Greg


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*ebay auction*

Well we'll see how it goes. Many bidders over the course of the auction are low or no feedback as they are newbies who don't wait until the end to bid. Of course I don't know who they are. I'll need to talk to my dad, but I think you may be right about piecing it out. He is losing his memory, so conversations about it are not easy, but with all the work on my mom's shoulders right now, it needs to go.


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## coaltrane (Aug 7, 2011)

*red flag*

why would lots of bids by a 0 feedback person be a red flag? I have bought and sold a TON of things on ebay and have rarely if ever encountered a shill bidding situation. I'm sure it happens, but it's rare I think. It's only an issue to me if that person wins and doesn't pay!


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

coaltrane said:


> why would lots of bids by a 0 feedback person be a red flag? I have bought and sold a TON of things on ebay and have rarely if ever encountered a shill bidding situation. I'm sure it happens, but it's rare I think. It's only an issue to me if that person wins and doesn't pay!



What became of your sale on e bay?

It says ended but with a price of two cents?

Did it sell or did you pull it?

Are you going to piece it out for sale?

Over 1400 viewed it...quite a lot of interest it stirred up.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Looks like it was pulled.



> This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.


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