# DC versus DCC



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

I am designing a new, somewhat complex, layout. I know I can set it up with DC, and was planning to. I have been reading up on DCC, and know I can probably wire it up with a DCC starter set to run 5-7 trains. Hopefully it would allow me to add on functionality, as I have money to switch over the turnouts, lights and other accessories. It looks like I will be adding various support boards. I am not sure if they belong on the control panel or the layout near the accessory or turnout (or block detector, I think they call it). I will probably be adding DCC logic to pre 2000 engines, as well (only about half a dozen). 

I am looking for a decent source of information, that would allow me to pick a decent starter set. With my background in electronics and computers, i would of thought, no problem. What I am seeing, just leaves me with far more questions than answers. The documentation I see, is on a level that is not helping much. Are there best practices for this kind of thing (or a direction that is better than the other)? At this point I am leaning toward NCE or Digitrax (spelling??). From what I hear, all they do is DCC, unlike Bachman or Atlas type companies, where they do their part of Model Railroading well, but their DCC systems may be a bit lacking (not really their focus).


----------



## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

Since you're familiar with electronics, do you have any experience with arduinos? There are a variety of DCC projects out there that you could build yourself to ensure expandability, To begin, take a look at the DCC++ project (also an offshoot that I work with which goes under the name DCC++ESP32 or ESP Command Station) and you'll find a whole community of support. These projects can get you up and running and are compatible with commercial equipment, so you can use off-the-shelf decoders in your locos.

The next thing you'll want to look at is a way to control turnouts. Do a search for Geoff Bunza, who has a number of blogs. SMA20 is a good starting point. His code works with the arduino nano boards and allows you to set up cheap servo motors to control your turnout points.

Finally, sensors. This search will be for Rudy's Model Railway, and he has a variety of projects for railroads. Take a look at his S88 projects, which let you read the state of simple sensors like reed switches or IR LEDs. That data can be fed to a computer and react to the inputs.

Adding DCC to older locos isn't too hard as long as you understand basic electricity. The old motors were usually grounded to the loco chassis, so you need to separate that and make sure there is no crossover between the motor and the wheels picking up track power. You end up with two wires from the wheels (track power), plus two wires from the motor, and these get soldered to the DCC decoder... and there you have your first basic DCC loco.

There's a lot of possibilities once you go DCC, and a ton of knowledge available on this board... you just have to figure out the right questions to ask.


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

I'm not really clear on what is stumping you. For a complex layout, you'll want a power bus, probably at least one or two sub-buses, and perhaps some DCC signal boosters if the power districts supplied by the subs are rather large AND complex in their own right. You want to keep a robust starting voltage from the main system's outputs all the way down the line for short-detection purposes, and to keep engine performance optimal. So, you'll want household wall gauge wire for the main bus, perhaps the same for a sub or two, or down to 14 gauge, and maybe a booster in series to keep the signal and voltage high onward in each case.
The only other boards you'll need might be a circuit breaker or a phase/polarity reverser if you have 'reversing loops' or turning 'wyes'.

Is this the type of information you're looking for?


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

besides a decoder in each locomotive, a DCC system is composed of 3 parts: a controller you hold in you hand, a command station that one or more controllers communicate with and that generates the DCC signal and one or more boosters that provide power to the track. the command station is often combined with a booster.

a large layout may be broken into power districts, each with a circuit breaker to limit short circuit current that might occur when a loco derails. a single booster may have multiple power districts. (a smaller 5A booster is probably sufficient for your size layout).

reversing sections need auto-reversers that sense a short and quickly reverse polarity in the reversing section that must be isolated

when track is not visible, that section can be electrically isolated and power routed thru a block detector to indicate if something is drawing current thru the block. a loco will certainly draw power as well as lighted passenger cars. freight cars may require wheel resistors (10k).

tortoise switch machines are commonly used to control turnouts, draw as much current as an LED and can be left powered in one of two positions controlled by panel switches or electronically

C/MRI nodes and computer control can be used to minimize wiring but requires custom PC software, configuring JMRI panels, ... there are of course many hobbyist DIYer projects that can support this

smartphone apps can be used to control locomotives using JMRI running on a PC of Rhasperry Pi connected to the DCC system with a USB adapter

ask questions


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Gents, 

This is a good start. Being knowledgeable about computers and electronics being what it is, having some documentation that is written above the beginner level is helpful (the simple documentation leaves a few holes, that I would like filled before I start building). I am building this layout with an eye toward being able to move it for the occasional train show. Is it better to have all the electronics with the control panel, or should some boards be mounted, under the table, near the accessory or turnout?


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

what type of boards?


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Greg,

I know the cars and locos would need to have their control boards, on board the car or loco. The location of turnout control boards, and some other support boards I am trying to position, in my design. Some of the electronics (coils to move switches and detection equipment need to be on the layout somewhere). Now the boards that control or read the electronics on the table needs a position, either under the layout table or under the control panel. Am I better off keeping the off table control panel simple (just what the control panel needs to run things), or do I have a electronics panel stashed under the layout, with the necessary wires running back to the control panel?


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

i think the general answer to your question on a layout of your size is all electronic boards can be mounted on a plywood board somewhere under the table, possibly a leg with wires runnng from them to devices on the layout and the control panel.

also in general, the panel is only as large as needed for switches/buttons controlled by the operator and is not large enough for all the electronics


switch machines need to be located under/near the turnouts. if they are controlled push-buttons or toggle switches, those switches need to be on a control panel. if not controlled with electrical switches, how are they controlled?

when using block detectors, power must be run thru them, but their outputs are likely needed near the panel. power will come from a booster presumably located nearby the control panel.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Greg,

from what I am reading, the turnouts, while they can e controlled by DCC, will likely start as push button on the control panel (with a LED or two, for display).


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

what type of switch machines are you planning on using: twin-coil or stall motor (e.g. tortoise)?


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

I am thinking twin coil, however I only recently heard about tortoise. not exactly sure if one is better than the other.


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

tortoise machines have a couple of advantages. they are low current stall motors so you change the polarity and leave it on. that current is low enough that you can put a pair of LEDs in series to indicate position and they machines have contacts that can also be used for panel displays of frog polarity.

the current for a tortoise is low enough to be driven by a pair of lm324 op-amps

twin-coil require momentary power and are often used with capacitive discharge units. some may have extra contacts like tortoise.


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Note that you do not NEED to control turnouts via DCC, you can just wire up switch machines with an independent power supply the same way for DC or DCC layouts.

Unless you're doing something with signalling and dispatcher/computer controlled switches and signals, it may be overkill.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Sometimes you can get too much information. That is often the case with those considering DCC...Digital Command Control.

Actually, DCC while it's innards are complex digital electronics. it is the most simple model train system ever.
If you have the typical home layout, your installation is easy. Just plug the Controller into the power supply. Run
TWO wires to the track and you are ready to run 2. 3 or more trains at the same time, each individually
controlled. The controller puts an 'always on' appx. 14 volts square wave AC on the track. It also
sends out digital informantion to the track thru that same pair..

Each loco must have a DCC decoder that takes it's power and digital commands from the track thru the loco wheels.
Each loco has it's own digital 2 or 4 digit address. That's how the controller tells loco A to
go forward, while loco B is doing something else.

As you would expect, the larger the layout the more wiring you would need. It is recommended that
you have a drop from the track to an under table bus every 6 feet or so. The bus, of course,is
fed by your DCC controller.

The most popular DCC complete systems are: Digitrax, NCE, MRC and Bachmann. Any one
of them have sufficient power to run 4 or 5 trains at the same time. Bachmann lacks the
ability to do the 'fine tuning' of decoders that many like to do. All are of excellent quality so
your choice will be your preference as to the knobs and displays of the controller.
NMRA standards mean that you can run any brand loco or any brand decoder with
any brand of controller. In the event you decide to run several SOUND LOCOS
the power need goes up...but there are plug in boosters that provide what is needed when
you need it

Turnouts are what make a layout fun. But you must ignore any claims of
DCC 'compatiibility'...those are simply advertising hype. Any turnout is
sufficient for DCC. One of the most popular brands is Peco. You
simply do not have turnout caused derails using Peco. Most users choose their
insulfrog design. Howevver, if you use small 4 wheel or older locos lacking
all wheel power pickup you may need a turnout with powered metal frog.
Peco calls these Electrofrog. 

There are two basic 'motors' to move the turnout points. One is the
old standby 'twin coil' that snaps at the push of a button. Many now
prefer the 'stall motor' design of Tortoise. It uses a DPDT switch to
throw the points. They move realisticaly slowly. The Tortoise also
has a built in swirtch to control RED/GREEN panel or track side signals.
Several makers offer 'stationary decoders' that let you throw your
turnouts using your DCC controller. Otherwise, you would need
a separate power source to provide current for either the twin coil
or Tortoise motors. On larger layouts the turnout control panels
may be located near the location of yards or other complex track work.
This reduces the volume of wiring.

Since you hope to move your layout to train shows from time to
time you must consider modulat benchwork. This also would
likely require that any turnout controls be on a panel for each module
else you would require cables with many conductoxrs.

Don


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. At this point, I am leaning towards not having the turnouts on DCC, and may make the move later. I'm still up in the air about tortoise controlled switches, as I don't think they have a distinct advantage.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

All of my turnouts were Peco twin coil powered thru a Capacitor Discharge Unit. The cap acts as a fast charging battery and
when you push the turnout panel button it discharges into theselected one of the twin coils moving the points. It protects the
coils from accidental burnout. Once such unit is able to power ALL of your layout turnouts.
But there is no way to control panel or track side signals. There is, however, a product
called The Staplelton 751D that does it all. You flip a switch on the panel, it moves the points AND controls the
panel LEDS. It also has a built in CDU to avoid burnouts.

The advantagfe of Tortoise turnout motors is that the one switch flip moves the points AND controls panel signals.
They are fully reliable but are intentionally SLOW...so you have to be aware to throw the turnouts before the
train gets there.

Don


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

While having the turnouts moving slowly might look nice, I'm not sure if it's a good thing... Timing worries me. I may look into the CDU.


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You won't go wrong with twin coil turnouits. I do urge you to investigate the Stapleton 751 D. Had I know of the produict
when I built my layout I would havve used them. It's a complete unit and requires nothing extra to buy. You would need
a 12 to 16 volt DC source to power them and your turnout motors. You could use an old DC power pack or
an old unused wall wart that puts out the required DC voltage. With your knowledge of electronics and computers
you likely have an old power supply that would work. I used a household door bell transformer with the CDU to
power my turnouts.

Don


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

The 751 requires a non switching power supply. I just got mine from Ken and they are super easy to assemble if you buy the kits.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

One other advantage of a Tortoise is that it can reverse the polarity/phase of the turnout as needed. This can be handy at turning 'wye' configurations, for example.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

I am looking at the 751D now, looks like it may be worthwhile


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Why would the 751's require a non-switching power supply? Also Switchmaster stall motors are another option for turnout control and to me are much easier to install.


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Lemonhawk said:


> Why would the 751's require a non-switching power supply? Also Switchmaster stall motors are another option for turnout control and to me are much easier to install.


I really don't know why, that's what he states in the instructions. I will ask him about it though.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

If you are interested in Tortoise you may as well upgrade to their Smail switch machine. It has all the same internals as the Tortoise but it includes a built-in DCC Decoder. It will save you time and money as you will not need to purchase a separate decoder to address each turnout.


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

What's the attraction to going DCC with turnouts? Seems more difficult and would be easier to control regular turnouts with a toggle like the 751d. Maybe I just don't know what I don't know???

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

I;m not sure about the interest,but if I think this tangent ran from the question of putting switches on DCC immediately, or wire them "old school", for now, and switch over as time and money permit. The SMAIL tortoise adds an interesting twist, however time and money may delay adding it. Although I am still planning, I am still leaning toward the simple switch first. Some basic electronic items have been procured and will be waiting for the track setup phase.


----------



## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

vette-kid said:


> What's the attraction to going DCC with turnouts? Seems more difficult and would be easier to control regular turnouts with a toggle like the 751d. Maybe I just don't know what I don't know???
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Biggest advantage is you (or any other operator) can throw the switch from your hand-held throttle. You do not have to be sitting at the switchboard. Great if you are walking around following your train around the layout.


----------



## Djsfantasi (Mar 19, 2019)

cfurnari said:


> While having the turnouts moving slowly might look nice, I'm not sure if it's a good thing... Timing worries me. I may look into the CDU.


One man’s opinion. One of my model railroading goals is realism. Points that snap are not realistic. The slow motion of a Tortoise (and others) is an advantage that helps me meet my goals. Plus, the flexibility of the internal switches are great as well.


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Very little. You need either big signs on each turnout or a really great cheat sheet. That said, I use Digitrax DS64's to control my turnouts, because its was easy to make a nice control panel that had a single push button per turn out or a single button per route. The bonus was that the DS64's did put all the info in the loco net so if I want to I can control the turnouts and routes with the hand throttle and it all connects in to JMRI!


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

All good points. The early layout design does lean towards a button on the control panel, with an eye toward adding the DCC control, while keeping the button on the panel. What I am currently considering is a single pole, double throw, momentary contact switches for the turnouts. 

I'm also looking at the panel itself, and wondering what home depot or lowes has for drawer slides. Well, I am thinking about putting some elements of the DCC system, that doesn't need to be next to, or on the device it is associated with it in a drawer or 3, below the control panel, in what amounts to a cabinet. I will probably be adding muffin fans to the cabinet, for cooling purposes. I may have to run a few extra cables, but I would not be banging my head, as much as I wire.


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

A slide out panel with no sides and some cutouts to allow natural air flow seems better than complicating things with closed drawers with fans and fan noise. Same with power supplies with fans, their just too noisy! Even better is a hinged vertical panel, vertical in use, but folds up (and out) so you can easily work on it. My control panels hinge down to work on them and are held up in place using window latches








A simple string keeps the panel from flopping all the way down wen working on it while the latches on either end securely fasten it in the operate position. The DS64's are also shown


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

cfurnari said:


> What I am currently considering is a single pole, double throw, momentary contact switches for the turnouts.


you might consider momentary DPST toggle switches



cfurnari said:


> putting some elements of the DCC system, that doesn't need to be next to, or on the device it is associated with it in a drawer or 3, below the control panel, in what amounts to a cabinet. I will probably be adding muffin fans to the cabinet, for cooling purposes.


you probably know that mounting circuit boards vertically results in better cooling due to convection.

mounting circuit boards on wood panels attached to legs is common (some examples)

if you'd really prefer not to crawl under the layout or bend down, you could mount the wood panels on hinges so they can swing forward.

i was helping with a layout built high enough that you can sit on a chair to work underneath it


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

vette-kid said:


> What's the attraction to going DCC with turnouts? Seems more difficult and would be easier to control regular turnouts with a toggle like the 751d. Maybe I just don't know what I don't know???
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Computerized CTC signalling and switch control.



SantaFeJim said:


> Biggest advantage is you (or any other operator) can throw the switch from your hand-held throttle. You do not have to be sitting at the switchboard. Great if you are walking around following your train around the layout.


I don't see the appeal in THAT. Punching in numbers to throw a switch really takes me out.

And who designs centralized switch boards anymore? Walkaround isn't an issue if control toggles will be located near the switch they control.


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

C/MRI is a better approach for computerized CTC than DCC. some would argue the even C/MRI is primitive and should use LCC.

there are a variety of ways to make a single toirtoise machine controllable from one or more locations. local latching relays wired as reversing switches can be toggled from multiple locations such as a local panel and a distance CTC. another approach is reversing switches wired in series.

i think a common case is turnout on a mushroom that can be controlled from either side.

latching relays make it easier to support route selection using diode matrix or other approaches (arduino)


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Unless you go into very complex occupancy detection and signalling systems, there really is not
much model gear that needs special air. Usually, you'll have the power supply for your DCC, often
an oversize wall wart. Perhaps another couple of similar wall warts or an old DC power pack.
Once set up, connected and tested you never need access them again so a good shelf
or some such UNDER the bench work would be sufficient. I had all of mine plugged into
two separate power strips...one for DCC and Turnout power, the other for lights and
the like. 

When you are planning your wiring be sure to use color coded wires...Red, Green and Black
for the turnouts....perhaps white and brown for your DCC bus...and yellow and blue for
buildihng and street lighting. It sure makes trouble shooting easier. Barrier terminal
strips on each turnout control panel makes it easy to assemble, and then to connect
the turnout cables.

Don


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Don,

Like the different color wire, for each application. I have been using a woodworking application, to flesh out some ideas for some controls. I am planning on having control cables come out the back, from the drawer, and attached to blocks (visible through the hole in the top). the hole in the top is where I will have turnout switches, on a removable panel. The vertical boards under that will have DCC electronics mounted on them. They are on drawer slides. the drawer under that is meant to come out and a fold up board will support the electronics boards. I still suspect I might need some muffin fans to circulate air.


----------



## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

cv_acr said:


> Punching in numbers to throw a switch really takes me out.


That sounds really awkward. Do some control systems really do that??? I've been working on my own interface that can work on a cell phone and am thinking about adding panel graphics to the display so you can just visually throw a turnout. The current system gives a list of turnouts but you do need to know which number goes to which device.


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Something like this? This is LC-DCC. I'm not running turnouts through it, so I can't go much more into that side of it. It works on Apple, Android or windows.









Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

Shdwdrgn said:


> That sounds really awkward. Do some control systems really do that???


i think JMRI Panel Pro


----------



## Shdwdrgn (Dec 23, 2014)

That's pretty neat. What's the difference between the gray and green numbers on the turnouts?


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Not really sure, since I don't use that function. I think green is just the selected path, grey is alternate. Not sure about the numbering though. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

So, I stopped by a pair of local hobby shops, mostly for contact information, and to see if what I understand is leading down the garden path, or a slippery slope. Both shops are run by retirees, which isn't a problem. The first shop was run by a talkative pair, who pointed out a couple of general things, and gave some advice. I left with their cards, and it looks like I can order, through them, almost anything I need (or go direct somewhere). I thought one of the tortoise suppliers didn't accept credit cards (might be wrong on that), so they may be helpful. I had a couple of problems with the other shop. For openers, they sell mostly O, while I run HO (although they can order anything). Part two is that the guy is a grumpy old f###, who no longer gives advice (he got tired of angry folks who fouled up listening to him). 

The second shop is primarily useless to me, since I can order stuff anywhere, I need to have reasonable info. The first shop didn't say use this only, or go this route, as the best choice. They did say there are four major suppliers for DCC (NCE, Digitrax, Atlas and Bachmann). They did say that Bachmann and Atlas, while decent DCC products, their main focus rose out of and should stay in the track and rolling stock (where they got their start), while the other two deal in DCC parts, and chose to stay there. The DCC parts are mostly interchangeable, so I am comfortable in leaving the DCC components in the Atlas and Bachmann rolling stock and other items.


----------



## gregc (Apr 25, 2015)

why get the advice from a shop owner, when you get a 100 different opinions on the forum 

DCC decoders in rolling stock should work with any NMRA DCC compatible system.

probably the primary factor in picking a system (NCE, DigiTrax) is the user interface, cabs. but with a USB adapter and JMRI running on a raspberry pi, you can use a Wifi throttle from wherever and possibly never need a wired cab from that vender.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Why get advice from a shop owner? Its less advice, more what he can do and who can I work with, when pricing out a larger order, and getting a possible discount. They have their distributor contacts, which I don't have. Their opinions should fall in line with the opinions here, or at least come close. If I were to pick up on the major part of the system (DCC control system) from Atlas or Bachmann, while they probably have good systems, what I don't exactly know is which of the Four main starter sets is likel a better choice for me.


----------



## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

*OP:*

If you're still investigating dcc, check out these two systems:
- Roco z21 (Roco hardware and z21 app)
*or*
- Digikeijs DR5000 (again, using the Roco z21 app).

Youtube videos explain how it works.
You can use any tablet or smartphone (iOS or Android).
The z21 app is FREE, you can download it right now and try it out in demo mode:

iOS, go to App Store, search for "roco z21", app you want has red engine on blue background.
Android, go to google play, search as above.

Either of the above systems can be used with either handheld device OR can be used wirelessly via wifi (z21 uses a companion router, DR5000 has the router "built right into it").

You may or may NOT enjoy running trains from a tablet/smartphone style setup.
I do.


----------



## SantaFeJim (Sep 8, 2015)

Chris -

I am worried that you are going to cave into information overload. You are not going know EVERYTHING before you start. You will learn as you go, often by your own mistakes. Just sayin'.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I would install a second crossover on the main. 

Once you change tracks you are stuck there unless you stop the train and backup.


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

J.Albert1949 said:


> *OP:*
> 
> If you're still investigating dcc, check out these two systems:
> - Roco z21 (Roco hardware and z21 app)
> ...


That's why I went with lc-dcc. I have about $50 into it, if I decide i want something different in not out a lot. So far out works great. Especially with having a few loco genies, as those can be run with their own remote by my son or someone else while I run a different loco on my phone.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Now that the conversation is back on track... Yes, I know I am looking at a lot of information. Most of the holes in my knowledge have been filled. I will not be on site to where I am building until late next month (moving from NY to northeast of Nashville, Tennessee. Once most of the moving is dealt with, I will start planning the area I will be building in. I suspect that I will need to do some prep work to the unfinished room that the train is going in (new flooring, and fixing up the walls). So, basically the build of the table starts in December or January, along with wiring. Actual DCC purchase will be about that time. Between now and then, reviewing the different base systems will be done.


----------



## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Shdwdrgn said:


> That sounds really awkward. Do some control systems really do that??? I've been working on my own interface that can work on a cell phone and am thinking about adding panel graphics to the display so you can just visually throw a turnout. The current system gives a list of turnouts but you do need to know which number goes to which device.


If you control a switch machine using a DCC accessory decoder, you CAN using your DCC throttle on most systems hit "Accessory [or whatever that button is labelled]", dial in the decoder address, then update to "on" or "off" (normal/reverse). Someone earlier touted this as an "advantage" because you can "control switches from your controller instead of a switch panel". Of course you need a way of knowing the accessory decoder addresses for the switches, and then have to stop what you're doing and punch all the buttons to make it work.

The OTHER thing you can do with DCC-controlled switches is to hook up your DCC to a computer and allow your computer to control those accessory decoders. Then you can build a CTC panel or similar UI interface to control switches and signals with a click of the mouse and it sends the correct command to the correct accessory for you. There are several software solutions that allow you to do this such as JMRI/PanelPro, rr-cirkits, TrainController, etc.

I don't see much fun in the former, but massive power in the latter to realistically control a large layout with a dispatcher.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

yes, well, I will initially use a control panel, early on, and see if I can switch it over later. I have a feeling the panel and DCC control will be a bit tricky, but possible..


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

Here is the panel I'm working on. Track is DCC turnouts are powered separately










Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Other DCC systems include EZ-DCC, CVP, and Lenz. Lenz invented the current standards in DCC, and then generously opened their work so that others would copy it and bring their own systems to market...or so I have read.

I believe that Digitrax and NCE have the lion's share of systems in current use in N. America, and probably Lenz and Roco in EU.


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

mesenteria said:


> Other DCC systems include EZ-DCC, CVP, and Lenz. Lenz invented the current standards in DCC, and then generously opened their work so that others would copy it and bring their own systems to market...or so I have read.
> 
> I believe that Digitrax and NCE have the lion's share of systems in current use in N. America, and probably Lenz and Roco in EU.


I did a search for ez-dcc and all I come up with the the Bachmann EZ command. Is this different? 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

vette-kid said:


> Here is the panel I'm working on. Track is DCC turnouts are powered separately
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, this is basically what I have in mind, geared to my layout, of course.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Well. I'm not intimidated, yet. Poking about the internet has confirmed a few things. I will likely create a small enclosure for a power supply, control unit, and power district boards, and a couple of muffin fans for cooling. Working with electronics and computers most of my life, I will lean toward protecting the not so cheap parts. That, and a good wiring plan. it has been suggested (not sure if here or elsewhere) that I choose colors for each wiring system (track power, booster and power distribution, sound, turnouts accessories and cab control), in order to make things easy to troubleshoot. I'm not sure its the best idea (maybe have the wife pick the wire colors). I am still taking notes on wiring the turnouts (some of the notes will probably be used to cover sound and accessories). and I will have a start....


----------



## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

cfurnari said:


> it has been suggested (not sure if here or elsewhere) that I choose colors for each wiring system (track power, booster and power distribution, sound, turnouts accessories and cab control), in order to make things easy to troubleshoot. I'm not sure its the best idea


Trust me on this: You do want to have a color coded wiring plan. It will make trouble shooting much easier, along with initial layout wiring. If you can't find the wire you want locally, you can find just about anything online.


----------



## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

cfurnari, I started out like you, with some experience in electronics and daunted by the apparent DCC maze. Suddenly, I found myself owner of a DCC loco, and clueless. I was offered, and took, a bargain on a Bachmann EZ DCC unit. Big mistake! After I got tired of stopping and starting my loco, I realized I couldn't do any programming, which was a bummer, since its default behavior wasn't very realistic. (And it was a Bachmann loco, even!)
So after some research I narrowed down to NCE and Digitrax. Digitrax is attractive with it's LocoNet system, but I found their literature a little confusing, leaving me a little unsure of what I was getting into. So I bought an NCE Powercab and suddenly everything is easy! No-nonsense, simple, powerful, straightforward, has a 5 amp control station built in, and does everything my modest set up needs. If you want to expand, there are incremental accessories that make use of your existing units; no discarding items because they've been "replaced" by more capable components. There are even DCC turnout decoders that can control 8 separate switch motors. If you use stall motor turnout actuators with their extra relay contacts you can light LEDs on your layout diagram panel to indicate switch position. If you have paired turnout crossovers between parallel tracks you can operate both of the pair with a single channel of a multi channel turnout controller. The choice was a no-brainer for me. I found the best price online was at Tony's Train Exchange in Essex Junction, VT. (Right in my backyard, no less!) And they're very helpful with advice based on experience. If they don't know (rare!), they'll say so. Good luck with your project, and don't forget to have fun!


----------



## VTtrainguy (Jan 18, 2019)

flyboy2610 said:


> Trust me on this: You do want to have a color coded wiring plan. It will make trouble shooting much easier, along with initial layout wiring. If you can't find the wire you want locally, you can find just about anything online.


AMEN! AMEN! If I had a "living wage" for every hour I've spent inside wings, landing gear wells, engine nacelles, and "hell holes" tracing anonymous white wires whose code #s have been defaced, I'd be a rich man today. USE COLOR CODES and tags as well!


----------



## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

vette-kid said:


> I did a search for ez-dcc and all I come up with the the Bachmann EZ command. Is this different?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Sorry, I was sloppy.. CVP Products Home Page


----------



## vette-kid (May 2, 2020)

mesenteria said:


> Sorry, I was sloppy.. CVP Products Home Page


Interesting... Their website is awful though! I had to find the manual to even see what it is. Any idea of their pricing?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

The next two months should be interesting for me. I am moving from NY metro area to northeast of Nashville, Tennessee. For starters, fewer hobby shops. I was hoping to make some headway talking to DCC knowledgeable hobby shop folk, mostly for leads on where to get information. My main concern was that the DCC documentation that I have seen presumes one knows the topic. I understand electronics and programming well enough to be able to read most manuals on programming, and most schematics, but the DCC manuals seem to presume a person knows a lot about electronics, programming and DCC (the area I am lacking). I will be traveling down to Tennessee later this week, and hope to have a better idea if what I have in mind, will fit in the space I am putting the layout in (almost sure it does, but one never knows). Since it is a separate building (big enough to be considered a 2 car garage), I will also be looking at environmental issues (heat, AC and possibly a leaky roof).

So anyway (between housekeeping details, and honey do lists), I got some planning to do. I will be picking the colors for the different wiring areas, and got some ideas for how to label all of this (35 years digging through poorly documented code, some of it mine, some of it l). And, I probably will be adjusting the layout and bench work plans, while I am down there looking over other things. Right on schedule. Late next month I should be able to fix up the floor (hate bare concrete floors), and the roof, if needed. If all goes well, I should be able to finalize the plans, by November. With a hiatus, for the holidays, I should be able to get going late December, or January. Meanwhile, I have ordered up some reading material, suggested here, so that I can start planning the electronics. 

I should have a better idea what I am planning by November.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

BTW, 
I was poking at 3rd planit, just to compare the layout it builds, to what I have in scarm... I'm not sure why, but the same tracks in plan it don't seem to come out the same as scarm... very confusing...


----------



## Tom17 (Jan 14, 2016)

vette-kid said:


> Interesting... Their website is awful though! I had to find the manual to even see what it is. Any idea of their pricing?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


CVP Products Discontinued Items Parts for the EasyDCC Command Station are now obsolete CVP Products EasyDCC Components


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Chris

Not at all sure of what information about DCC that you need.
The system is totally programmed when you get it. Much of
the literature on the subject often makes it seem complex
but it's not. When you buy a DCC system you get a
power supply and a 'controller' . Some look and operate
much like a TV remote. You plug in the power supply,
plug the controller into that and run 2 wires to your track.
That's all there is to it. The controller puts around 14 volts
square wave AC power on the track at all times. It also sends
to the track digital commands to your locos. Each loco
has a decoder that has a 2 or 4 digit 'address'. When you
'punch in; the loco's 'address' you can run the loco forward
or back at varied speeds. You can also turn the lights on
and off. While your loco A is still running you can
'punch up;' loco B...or C,...or D...you can run 3, 4 and
more non sound locos at the same time each individually
controlled. 

Your DCC manual will tell you how to assign an 'address' and
how to do any adjustments to the loco operations. That
is done by punching controller buttons that change a numeric value in a series of 'CVs'.
That is all of the 'programming' you would ever do. Many
of us don't bother.

Your decision as to which brand DCC system to buy most
likely will be based on your personal preference as to
the ease of Controller use. All are
built to NMRA standards so any brand loco or decoder can
be used with any brand DCC system.

Some DCC related terms you will likely encounter:
For Locomotives...
DCC ON BOARD Means that the loco has a
decoder installed and is ready to run. It will likely
have address 03.
DCC READY. Means it is a DC loco but has a jack ihto which you
can plug a DCC decoder (it also likely will come with address o3)
If neither of those terms are used it will be a DC loco and will
require that any decoder would need be 'hard wired', a simple hour
or so chore. Decoders come with simple instructions.

You will also encounter the term DCC FRIENDLY ...ignore it...those
are simply 'ad talk' words and have no meaning. Any track, any turnout, or
any other track accessory is suitable for DCC.

If you have any questions you have a bunch of guys here who have
years of DCC experience and can halp you with any of your concerns.

Don


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

At this point, the information I have collected, while a bit sparse, the advice I have gotten (here and elsewhere), has filled in most of the blanks. I believe I will be using Digitrax, and JMRI as a control program a bit later. While still in the planning stages, think I have power districts and such planned, and will finalize that shortly after construction of the layout bench work is in progress (will have the starter set lined up by then). I will likely reach out here, or the Dgitrax forum, if start getting too lost. Being in the middle of a long distance move hasn't helped, other than one is a diversion from the other..


----------



## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Chris

You mention planning for 'power districts'. These are usually used only on large layouts, such as built by
clubs where several members run trains at the same time.. Their purpose is to isolate a short circuit 
caused by a derailed train so it doesn't interfere with members
operating in other 'districts'. Unless you expect to have family or friends join you in operating
your layout you likely would not need any 'power districts'. The power supply that comes with
most DCC systems has sufficient current for even very large layouts. To insure smooth
power throughout your layout, it is recommended that you have drops from the track to
an under table bus every 6 feet or so. The bus is powered by your DCC controller.
However, if you add several sound locomotives, which draw more current than
non sound locos, you may find the need for a 'booster' which is a plug in you
can add at any time.

Don


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

this being a 20 foot, by 14 foot, at the widest points, I am thinking three power districts, but I am still reading up on the point. Routing the power bus is going to be a bit of work. I did hear about running feeders every 6 feet, or so. its going to be interesting.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

20x14 can easily be run as a single power district. You only need to split it, as Don said, if you anticipate groups of operators and need to ensure other parts of your layout keep operating if one has a short.

My personal experience is that most people get way to conservative with power feeders. Run a pair of bus wires under the table, and connect feeders every 10 feet or so. Make sure you have feeders on both sides of turnout -- and this may mean you have more than one every 10 feet, depending on your design.

Speaking of designs, if you have used EXACTLY THE SAME pieces in SCARM and 3D PlanIt, then the two plans should match up. Turnouts from different manufacturers are not the same dimensions, though (even if they have the same frog number) and that may be where you went wrong.


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

Power districts can be useful, for example you could have one be the main line and one be the yard, that way a short wile working the yard would not shut down the main line. Another reason is to use something like Digitrax BXP88's which act as power district circuit breakers while also providing occupancy detection and transporting.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

CTValleyRR said:


> Speaking of designs, if you have used EXACTLY THE SAME pieces in SCARM and 3D PlanIt, then the two plans should match up. Turnouts from different manufacturers are not the same dimensions, though (even if they have the same frog number) and that may be where you went wrong.


I looked at that... same manufacturer and parts, including turnouts, best I can tell, anyway.. different tables between scarm and planit??.


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

When you say you want to use JMRI, what exactly are you planning to use it for? If you want to use it as a throttle and/or for throwing turnouts, that’s relatively simple. If you want to use it for full automated computer control, that is much more complex and costly and requires some extra planning to define blocks which is best done before you start laying track.


----------



## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I agree.

Had I known about how some signaling and aspects are wired for blocks, I might very well have separated my layout into multiple blocks just for aspects. It also allows for automatic slow stopping of trains in occupied blocks using DCC. The trains will also automatically slowly start again when the block ahead is cleared.

This doesn't even require computer control. Viessmann has an automatic block control system that runs on only DCC and most European designed DCC decoders will support this function, particularly ESU, Viessmann, and Zimo decoders. I can't speak for North American design decoders though.

Semaphores though, can be controlled without any sophisticated block control using only magnetic or IR switches without block isolation. The wiring of semaphores _can_ be the same though for aspects and will control a train entering an occupied block without isolation. Lighted aspects require a bit more sophistication as they are not solenoid controlled.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Mark,


seeing as i haven't started building yet, no problem. While I want to play a bit, before I get into automation, JMRI will be used for automation. the building of the layout will likely begin in January, and track will go in late January, early February. I have a scarm of what I want to use, so I could add in block planning before I start laying track. The cost worries me.. as have not gone far into everything JMRI has, where do the costs come from? Is it mostly the hardware?


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

I take it that JMRI needs to have the DCC system t is connecting to up and running, somewhat. I have poked at JMRI a bit, and it is looking for a connrction to a DCC system (that has not been set up yet, much less acquired. Once I get the layout build started, i will look at JMRI a bit more. I suppose I need to have an idea, for blocking, when I am ready to pull in automation. I suppose I need to plan the inputs for this step (sensors and such).


----------



## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I use JMRI just to keep track of the locomotives and do the programming (Decoder pro),


----------



## Mark VerMurlen (Aug 15, 2015)

I have full computer automation on my model railroad. Most of the expense is in the hardware, but I also purchased an expensive software program (TrainController) to run the layout. I use JMRI for configuring locomotives and other hardware components of my system, but I wasn't able to figure out how to use JMRI for running the automation. TrainController was much easier for me to understand and hence the reason I purchased it. The crucial hardware component for automation is occupancy detection so that the software can track where trains are located. There are numerous ways to do this that all use different hardware solutions which each have their strengths and weaknesses. I chose to use a system that detects occupancy by the electrical current drawn by the locomotive (and also the cars) through the rails. This means each block of train track is electrically isolated and fed by a separate set of wires from an electronics board that can do the current sensing and report that back to the computer system. As mentioned above, detection can also be done using reed switches or photo detectors. The important concept of defining your blocks is that only one train at a time is allowed in a block and before a train can leave its current block, the next block needs to be empty (there are exceptions to these rules, but this is the basic way the computer controls the movement of trains such that they don't run into each other). Block boundaries often times end up being at turnouts on your railroad. It can sometimes be tricky to get a block boundaries correct with complicated track plans. There's probably also multiple ways a track plan can be "blocked', so there's room for opinions on how best to do it. There are several people on this forum that all have experience with full computer automation that would be willing to help when you get to the point of breaking your track plan into blocks.


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

cfurnari said:


> I looked at that... same manufacturer and parts, including turnouts, best I can tell, anyway.. different tables between scarm and planit??.


Can't explain it, then. There should be no difference -- they should both be using the actual dimensions of the pieces -- no guessing necessary. I would say trust 3D PlanIt over SCARM. The latter is someone's hobby project and doesn't have the resources of even a small company behind it.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

good to know


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Well, I am surveying the unattached garage. Good news is that the table will fit, and I should be able to get the driveway to it fixed up. It looks like I need new insulation in the roof, which should not be an
issue. Got to deal with cracks in the floor. And some cleaning too.


----------



## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

To me, it looks as though the floor in the garage was poured without the use of wire mesh or re-bar. I could be wrong, though. It looks like the garage is settling. You could fill the cracks, but that's like putting a Band-Aid over a gaping wound. You may want to have a professional look at that floor. Putting a model railroad on top of it would be an exercise in frustration. You would be constantly dealing with uneven track-work, and the issues that go with it. I don't mean to be a downer, but you really need to get that floor dealt with.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

That was the bad news I was getting to. Right now there's a few things with the property that need addressing, so it will take a couple of weeks until I am in a position to have someone look, and yes it makes the list. Unplanned repairs to the building was scheduled to run to December. The fun of folding one household into another....


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

I'm scheduling a company to come look at my cracked floor. I am reasonable sure a patch job just would be a major mistake, and want a couple of contractors (legitimate ones) to look at it. At least considering that the folks that put up the storage barn were a couple of young contractors, who probably did things on the cheap side. The first company I got supposedly fix this kind of problem, for a living. They can replace the floor, or drill holes in the floor, and fill voids under the floor with some kind of foam (I'm thinking harder than that blown insulation), which is cheaper than ripping out the concrete, and pouring a new floor. Not that I am worried, yet...


----------



## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

It's pretty amazing what they can fix, and how they can fix it, these days.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Yes it is. Picked up on a you tube video that shows the process of lifting cement driveway pads. It looked like the one described on their website.


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Ok, now that I am back in NY, and under quarantine, until just before my planned move. We are packing up the final items, as we wait. Hopefully, we can move, as scheduled. I have someone coming, to look at my floor and see if we can save it. I really don't want to dig it up. Meanwhile, downtime from packing will go towards adjusting the layout a bit, since the original plan will likely need some table placement changes. Planning can be fun. Moving can be fun... 

Here's hoping Murphy doesn't visit, and the pandemic doesn't screw things up too much. stay safe...


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

after a site survey, and looking about, i have come up with the attached. This is from Scarm. Basically, the area will end up to be a work area, the layout and a visitor area. If one were to look a an "L", the area above and right would be a work and control area, and below and right would be the peanut gallery. Murphy has visited somewhat, mostly in the prep area. With me in NY, under quarantine, and packing up what is left of my apartment, I have to trust that my stepson will clear my garage and barn a bit, of some of the garbage that seems to have filled the areas. they are progressing, and hopefully will have cleared enough space by the time we get down there. I may end up busting my *** to clear what is left, before the movers get there. anyway, some progress....


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Well... It looks like I might have to replace the concrete slab... Put a damper on things...


----------



## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Ugh. Not good. Unfortunately, I've been there myself (urgent spending requirements putting a damper on layout plans).


----------



## cfurnari (Aug 2, 2020)

Well, after four or five contractors refused to either respond or bid, I actually got a quote of almost 7 grand for the replacement of a 32 by 22 foot slab. I was considering taking it, but I hopefully will have a comparison bid tomorrow. I was hoping for 5, but he seems to understand the job. My wife is a bit concerned about the price being almost what the original building cost. All I could think was, "that explains the floor"... Boy did I bite my tongue....


----------

