# Free 4 x 8 Layout



## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

I am getting a Free 4 x 8 layout that is a 3 times around with turnouts, yards and tunnels and overpasses etc from the Gold Coast Railroad Museum later today.

It is very old and all brass and covered in dirt and dust and it has been standing against a back wall in a storage room unused for a very long time, it is on 3/4 plywood with a facia and lots of wiring. no legs 

I want to see how the heck they did the 3 times around, the best we can figure it is a combination of 22r curves and 18r curves and several trestles, it is sort of a gray color with dust,
I will be seeking ideas of how to clean it up and get it working again.

I was thinking to just spray it with formula 88 cleaner, then scrub it with a big paintbrush and just hose it off, let it dry in the florida sunshine, what harm could I do???

Here is a couple of poor cell phone pics


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

From what I see, there's some scenery and likely some glues that
hold the track on.

Using a hose on it would likely do quite a bit of damage to that sort
of thing. You could cause corrosion of the turnout motor solenoids
also. 

I'd start with a good leaf blower and/or compressed air to clean it. (outside
of course) Follow that with a good alcohol and kitchen scrubber on the
track rail heads. Since it's brass, you know there is going to be
corrosion.

Does the wiring appear usable, and traceable?

Don


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

(1) The inner loop may turns out to be 15" radii curves. They are not common -- for a reason. It severely limits what length cars and locos you can run on it.

(2) Do NOT soak the whole layout with a hose. The switch machines on the turnouts should not get wet. And if the owner used white glue, things will fall apart quickly. I would suggest a shop vacuuming followed by a light scrub with an old pain brush, followed by another vacuuming. The brass track will need to be polished--but you already know that.

(3) What are you going to do with this? Connect it somehow to your already existing layout? Or use it in another room? Or what?

It is certainly a DC layout. I can't recall if your new layout is DC or DCC. You could run this as a DCC layout by tying the correct wires together so that the whole layout is powered all the time. If you want to run it as a DC layout, you've got to build a control panel and do a lot of wiring.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

DonR said:


> From what I see, there's some scenery and likely some glues that
> hold the track on.
> 
> Using a hose on it would likely do quite a bit of damage to that sort
> ...


Hard to tell until I get it home, got a pair of saw horses set up in the carport, waiting on my buddy to come at 1:30 with his big ford Pick Up to go and get it. We are meeting 
the GCRM model train guy at the museum at 2pm, Wow you are right it has switch motors all over the place. Looks cool tho. There is so much dust on it I could write my name in it.


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

You could just destroy it...many materials (plaster,glues,etc) usually used in layout builiding are water soluble to start with.Then the turnouts...I don't think they'll like it either.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> (1) The inner loop may turns out to be 15" radii curves. They are not common -- for a reason. It severely limits what length cars and locos you can run on it.
> 
> (2) Do NOT soak the whole layout with a hose. The switch machines on the turnouts should not get wet. And if the owner used white glue, things will fall apart quickly. I would suggest a shop vacuuming followed by a light scrub with an old pain brush, followed by another vacuuming. The brass track will need to be polished--but you already know that.
> 
> ...


Not sure what I want to do with it, but it was free, so I jumped on it, they were gonna toss it in a trash bin. I could make it dc or dcc, got both

I guess it was a very old display that had trains running constantly on it, not to many people use 3/4 plywood and I think the facia board is 1 x 4. it is very heavy, I gave it a lift from one side.

The Museum now has very large displays of every gauge from Garden Railroad to Z scale running in 20 gallon fish tanks. The HO display they now have is Humongis and our club just built a bigger and better one for them and we are still working on it, if you can picture a 25 x 25 sq ft room and the display is all over the place and is run from inside the room and it is visible from two sides, sort of a corner room. It is more or less needing to be run by several operators I don't see how it could be a continuous thing running all day almost unattended like the rest of the museum displays.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Doesn't look like there's much worth salvaging there. Sometimes, even free is too much to pay...


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

CTValleyRR said:


> Doesn't look like there's much worth salvaging there. Sometimes, even free is too much to pay...


To me it is not so much what I can use or not use, it is how it is laid out that is important to me plus that sheet of plywood has never seen the sunshine and a sheet of 3/4 is around 50 bucks nowadays and I am sure that it is actually 3/4th's and not 37/49th's or some other weird measurement less then 3/4 that they use now. 

The floor in my little utility trailer is bad and needs replacing

I wonder how many of the switch motors will work, has anyone counted them yet???? I found 9

Remember those pictures were taken in a very dark room using the flash on my phone


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Got the Free Train Table home
The outside loop around is actually a separate track then the inner two. The inner two tracks is a loop and a figure 8 which climbs up on a trestle over a mountain and down another trestle, the inner and outer are connected by a series of four turnouts which allows the train to switch from the inner loop to the outer loop and vice versa.
There is an octopus of wiring under the table but I think it is fairly simple to figure out, I will label it all, it is all color coded
The entire layout is made up of track sections there is no flex to be found, all the curves are 18R and the track is all tacked down and ballasted
it has 8 powered switch motors and one manual, 5 of the turnouts are to sidings
The table is built like a tank, 3/4 inch plywood and 2 x 4's and 1/4 plywood for the tunnel, The hills are very strong with screen wire reinforcing 
I tried to clean up a few areas and saw that the table is covered in a paper like material stapled all around the sides, kind of a desert color and there is a road going across with wood between the rails for autos to drive on, very clever 
There is some green foliage but not much
all the sidings have rail stops at the end and the stops all have a single wire running up to it for a light, but there area no lights
There is places all around where there used to be buildings
It is all actually well done , much better then my layout, too bad it is all brass
If this was a museum display at one point they could have had two trains running all the time, one on the outside loop and the other on the inside and figure 8


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

My first layout (which I am still working on) is also an inherited freebee that is a lot like yours -- brass track, 4' x 8' table built like a tank, with a mess of wire underneath, structures gone, but evidence of scenery. Mine also had legs and a control panel. However, the control panel had been unbolted from the table and ALL of the wires CUT, where they entered the control panel. The wires were all different colors (some striped), but there was NO pattern to the colors used.

Like you, I liked the track plan. But unlike you, I did not have a layout. I also did not have access to all the internet info that we have now. (I started this a long time ago.) So I bought some books (mostly from Kalmbach) and started learning about layouts by renovating my inherited layout back to working order. It has gone slowly, partly due to my initial lack of knowledge, and partly to family and house repair issues that took me away from model railroading for long periods.

Someday I will get around to starting a thread under My Layout about this journey. But for now, the short version is that I have made some small modifications to the initial layout, eventually replaced almost all of the brass track with nickel silver, rewired the layout twice, reconnected the control panel, then trashed it and built my own, which now must be rebuilt again to accommodate the final track plan. So basically, I have used this layout as a learning tool. Someday, I hope to build an extension onto this table (I have the room) to give me a larger, more interesting layout. But the original table will always be a part of my layout.


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

Looks like a FUN layout! What a great score!
You have the bones of a 60s-70s layout all there. Get some Plasticville/Tyco/Life-like buildings and scenery and run with it. 
As for the dust - look at it this way: free weathering. Seriously, it can be dealt with, and I don't see it as a particular hindrance if you are re-doing things anyway. 
As for the brass track - don't discard it out of hand. Yes it will corrode, which is why NS is so popular these days. BUT, it is a better conductor of electricity than NS and it can be managed. A good model railroader friend of mine swears by Wahl clipper oil in maintaining it. 
Hey, it's FREE. Take a deep breath, and work on it at your leisure. That's my outlook anyway


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

JNXT 7707 said:


> As for the brass track - don't discard it out of hand. Yes it will corrode, which is why NS is so popular these days. BUT, it is a better conductor of electricity than NS and it can be managed.


True, but as the OP knows, the important point will be how well the old turnouts work -- not because they are brass, but because they are old, and may be loose and prone to derailments. Newer turnouts are also better designed to help avoid derailments.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

JNXT 7707 said:


> Looks like a FUN layout! What a great score!
> You have the bones of a 60s-70s layout all there. Get some Plasticville/Tyco/Life-like buildings and scenery and run with it.
> As for the dust - look at it this way: free weathering. Seriously, it can be dealt with, and I don't see it as a particular hindrance if you are re-doing things anyway.
> As for the brass track - don't discard it out of hand. Yes it will corrode, which is why NS is so popular these days. BUT, it is a better conductor of electricity than NS and it can be managed. A good model railroader friend of mine swears by Wahl clipper oil in maintaining it.
> Hey, it's FREE. Take a deep breath, and work on it at your leisure. That's my outlook anyway


Thanks for the support guys, I really appreciate it, now for a technical question., the incline and declines look kinda steep, so I took some measurements, It rises 3 1/2 inch in 62 inch, I forget the formula and I am, sure some here can figure it out for me.
The turn outs on the layout are snap type and by that I mean when I move them from one position to another they snap over and the points look real tight against the rail, much better then the ones I have on my layout.
I got under the table and laid there looking at the wires with a flashlight, and noticed that all the wires going to the switch motors are small 3 wire cables, that is good and the ones going to the track stops on sidings are all white wires, I think that is good too, I would think a lighted track stop would pick up either positive or negative power from the track and the other part from the wire, Now for the track wiring, on the outside loop I see all the wires going to it are red and white and the wires going to the inside loop are red and green, so there must be some track insulators some where, but there are also some other wires that are yellow and white that don't seem to go anywhere, I am guessing that they went to buildings or lights or something
I had some 400 grit wet/dry paper and I started to run it over the track and it immediately shined up like my mothers old copper bottom fry pans, I know I know, do not use sandpaper, but I have a lot of vacuuming and cleaning to do.
I think this was a desert or western themed lay out and all my buildings and trains are not, but it can be a mish mosh of things for all I care if I can get it running and I am pretty sure I can
I figured out how to test the track for conductivity, it's a tool I bought on ebay for 3 bucks, it is a red caboose with interior lights and end of train red lights, all I gotta do is apply power and move it along and watch the lights. Ta Da


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## JNXT 7707 (May 5, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> True, but as the OP knows, the important point will be how well the old turnouts work -- not because they are brass, but because they are old, and may be loose and prone to derailments. Newer turnouts are also better designed to help avoid derailments.


Yes I get it MtRR75. Just trying to keep this layout in a proper (to me) perspective, and envision the possibilities. If you asked me what it was worth as my own stand-alone layout, I would probably dismantle and salvage the entire thing - for parts to use or sell. But as a freebie, it also frees a person up to worry less about precision ops and use it as perhaps the museum did - and as something to have some fun with. I can see a 70s AHM train - traction tires and all - highballing around those loops. And with traction tires, probably not a huge issue with the bridge inclines....


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> the incline and declines look kinda steep, so I took some measurements, It rises 3 1/2 inch in 62 inch, I forget the formula and I am, sure some here can figure it out for me.


About 5.5% -- Yep, that's steep.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

Bkubiak said:


> so there must be some track insulators some where,


Now that your rails are shiny, take a flashlight and follow all of the rails and look for tiny gaps in the shiny metal (about 1/16"). Usually these gaps are filled hard rubber from insulated rail joiners (mine were orange).


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> Now that your rails are shiny, take a flashlight and follow all of the rails and look for tiny gaps in the shiny metal (about 1/16"). Usually these gaps are filled hard rubber from insulated rail joiners (mine were orange).


They are not all shiny just did a small section about 4 or 5 ft long, but here are a couple interesting pics of it.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

Weird, I posted 4 pics but only one came thru


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

MtRR75 said:


> Now that your rails are shiny, take a flashlight and follow all of the rails and look for tiny gaps in the shiny metal (about 1/16"). Usually these gaps are filled hard rubber from insulated rail joiners (mine were orange).


I found the insulators, they are in between the two turnouts that connect the inner and outer loops, when I brushed way some of the dust there they were, easy to spot as I was examining the turnout operation manually, Gotta see the dentist this morning, when I get back from that and a few errands I have been assigned to do, I will attempt to apply power and see what is what.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

bkubiak said:


> i found the insulators, they are in between the two turnouts that connect the inner and outer loops, when i brushed way some of the dust there they were, easy to spot as i was examining the turnout operation manually, gotta see the dentist this morning, when i get back from that and a few errands i have been assigned to do, i will attempt to apply power and see what is what.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Sounds like the wiring is well organized.

The pair going to the outside oval, and the pair
going to the inside oval would normally be connected
at the panel through DPDT switches so you can determine
which of two power packs feed current to which track.

If you want power pack A to feed the outside oval you would flip
it's DPDT to that position. Flip the DPDT for the inner oval to
power pack B and you can run two trains at the same time each
individually controlled.

Those look like Atlas snap switches, there were thousands and
thousands of them sold thru the years. Normally, the green wire
throws straight, the red wire divert, the black wire is common.
You'd need 2 push buttons for each turnout on your panel. Connect
them to the accessory terminals on one of your power packs. 

There may be a lot of corrosion at the track joiners. You'll know after
you get the rail heads clean and a loco on the track. If it pauses or
changes speed when you cross over a joiner you may have to
solder that joint. 

Don


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

DonR said:


> Sounds like the wiring is well organized.
> 
> The pair going to the outside oval, and the pair
> going to the inside oval would normally be connected
> ...


I brought my transformer out and picked two track wires (a red and a white) in a corner to start my testing on, placed my caboose tester on the rail and turned on the power and TADA she lit up, so I moved it around and no matter where I put on the layout it lit up. 
So I went and got my Athern DC Diesel, put it on the track and turned the power up to 50 and it started to move along very nicely, it was on the outer loop and it ran all the way around, I let it do that for 5 or 6 times, then since I had power on the inner loop too I went and manually threw a few switches (Turnouts) and she went right over to the inner loop and ran great, it did stop in the middle of that bridge, gave it a push off the bridge and she ran great again.
I immediately re-cleaned the bridge track and waited for it to hit that spot again, when it did it ran right across, so I just played with it for the last hour or so switching it from the inner loop to the outer loop and so on.
I got about a 100 wires hanging down now, I am sorting them by two wire, rail and accessories and 3 wire switch motors, still don't know why I have power to all the rails, I have not tried to run on any of the sidings yet
IT appears to be running great, it is noisy when the loco hits the plywood table and quiet as a church mouse when on the trestle or the upper part of that hill.
Since it is in the carport and it is a Miami afternoon, the skeeters have found me and besides, my back hurts from climbing in and out under that table, plus the sun is in a position where when I try to look at a big bunch of wire I am looking at the sun, gotta either wait till the sun moves outa there or to wait until in the AM tomorrow to sort wire. 
I like it


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Looks like a result then!


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

I was just working under my FREE Layout, I am wearing heavy duty knee pads and I am sitting on an old blanket and I am finding it harder and harder to stand back up after I trace a wire or set of wires, Gotta pop a perk (back pain med), to ease the leg pains, but I have all the switch motors tagged both under and on the layout, I am using blue painters tape for the moment, I cannot find my stash of tiny snap ties or that pile of bread bag twist ties I have been saving for just this occasion.
As soon as I am done and looking for something else they WILL suddenly show up


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

If everything is firmly attached to the layout and the sides are sound, you might be able to lean it against a wall and sit on a stool and sort wires.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

You sure hit lucky or you've done a lot of hard work.

Usually you find all sorts of electrical problems on a
layout with brass tracks that old. Looks like you've
got a gem.

Don


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

So Today I bought an airbrush for 9.99 at harbor freight, I got an adapter so I can use it with pressure from my compressor, I was careful not to let the PSI get above 50 PSI

I could see the outline of a dirt or gravel road on my free layout and decided to see what I could do with my new toy using Umber as a color. I thinned it out real good with water and went to work doing what most people do covering it real good only to discover that the paint ran out all over the place, OOOPPS airbrushing must be done ever so slowly on a layout with a paper base. OH WELL Lesson learned

I should have bought the deluxe model for 18.99, comes with three paint jars with extra covers, a pressure regulator and the gun is oh so much better, I am thinking to return this one and buy the better one, it is not a Pro Quality Airbrush it is just better then the one I bought.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

UPDATE I bought or traded in the cheap airbrush for the better airbrush at Harbor Freight, had to buy a air hose for it, gonna try it out today.
I ran two loco,s as a DC on the brass layout, each dragging a 4 car train behind, one on the inner loop and one on the outer loop and they ran for hours without a derail, whoever built this layout really knew that he was doing


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

Bkubiak said:


> UPDATE I bought or traded in the cheap airbrush for the better airbrush at Harbor Freight, had to buy a air hose for it, gonna try it out today.


And I always thought Harbor Freight was a cheap airbrush!


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Yeah, I agree with Cycleops. Pretty much everything at Harbor Freight falls into the "cheap" category. The tradeoff is whether the difference in quality you find at other places is worth the price premium you have to pay, which it isn't always.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

The way I justify Harbor Freight buys is that I'm an
amateur. I will use a tool from there lightly, and
seldom in some cases. A more durable tool would
be nice but more costly and unused much of the time.

A guy who uses his tools to make a living would want
the better made brands. He usually recognizes
the quality and will pay the difference.

A $5.95 Harbor Freight mini ratchet socket set will last me a lifetime.
It would fail quickly in a master mechanics hands.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Like I said, you have to decide if the extra quality / price is worth it. For an airbrush, it might be.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

The joy of quality remains long after low price is forgotten, but have a look at this guy's site and decide https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home I think Don is already familiar with it.


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## Bkubiak (Oct 20, 2013)

DonR said:


> The way I justify Harbor Freight buys is that I'm an
> amateur. I will use a tool from there lightly, and
> seldom in some cases. A more durable tool would
> be nice but more costly and unused much of the time.
> ...


I find that that have decent clamps, great deals on box's of 2 inch chip paint brush's, I bought a 1/2 inch drive hammer drill and that is almost indestructible, their screwdriver sets suck and damage easily, and most of their air drive tools are not all that bad, their hammer drills for removing lug nuts and what not are weak, northern tools are much better, I have a 10 gal air compressor that will not quit, but it runs out of air too soon and the regulator on it sucks.
for cheap disposable tools you can't go wrong


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I have no cheap, disposable tools, except paint brushes. Personal choice; no criticism of anyone else intended.

I like Northern Tools, too. Pricing isn't usually anything to get excited over, but the quality of most items is excellent.


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