# Is the end of high end engines and legacy on the horizon?



## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

After looking at the new catalogue it seems to me the high end may be coming to an end in the near future. 

The RTR catalog seems to have the future with more sets, engines and Bluetooth added. 

Am I off base here or am I on to something? 

Dave


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm not so sure Dave. Not after just one catalog. There could be a hundred reasons this catalog was light on high end locomotives, but I'd have to see the trend happen over three or four catalogs before I'd believe Lionel is changing it's focus.

Most of the Ready to Run sets were repeats anyway. Maybe they're saving high end items for Volume II.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Yes that is true about the same thing over 3 or 4 catalogs but it does seem to me that they may be moving in a different direction. 

Yes the ready to run sets are a staple and in most catalogs but the number of LC and LC+ sets and seperate sale engines are a bunch and allot of them with Bluetooth added. Is Bluetooth the new way to run trains now and in the future? 

Bachmann already has Bluetooth in HO diesels and steam engines and there is talk of Bluetooth coming to their O gauge line very soon. 

Lionel makes very little money on their scale sized items, RTR items are the money makers. We shall see if my guess's are right but I would not be surprised if it did.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

It wouldn't be surprised either. Maybe since the Bluetooth control is new they wanted to focus on that in this catalog.

But ok, I'll say it: Is the lack of high end locomotives a result of ,or the cause, of the absence of Mike Reagan?


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

All I can say is Lionel has dropped the ball so much in the last 7 years, I think we are about to see more LC and LC+ locos rather than Legacy


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## Pebo (Sep 27, 2015)

The SD 60M is the key.......if it gains acceptance and strong sales, you will see more scale locomotives coming out with LC Plus and blue tooth........then it will only a matter of time before the blue tooth features expand and the quality of the included RS improves in this line.......
Peter


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

I would guess only if it is a money loser and the bean counters from Guggenheim say enough already.

The SD-60 test will be interesting.

Bill


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## TGP (Sep 6, 2015)

just a thought, it is not anything we can do, BUT, what is the demographics of the business/hobby. I tend to think manf.
need to address, the change of whats needed. For this Lionel,
is reviewing upcoming, buyers of products. Try and attract,
other folks, working families, or a parent, want to buy, for
kids, and they need Electronically enhanced, toys. The baby
boomer crowd, continues to move older or and move out, or
simply pass on. I would say our buying activity will be missed,
and NO one knows if it can be replaced. What was thinking when
Legacy came out. HMMM who has the $$, and now everybody,
has many of them, plus P/S 2-3, MTH. I sense a historical,
time frame, this Legacy era, But, will the industry survive.
I think the same idea came about in Golf, when the Big Bertha,
driver came, out, ( my dad has passed on) so who knows what
that industry addresses, now. I think the biggest similar scenario
right now is the current continuing music industry of many of us
the 60's- 70s. The crowds are well its many of us, and the performers, are u guessed it still playing, because its their career, if they medically can still do. Change, change, 
Pre-war, Post war, Mpc, the 90's, what will we called, for now
the Legacy era. Everybody, thinks about auction prices, Hmm
same deal right now, when they become orientated to Brand new Legacy engines, wonder what the prices will B. Time......
just time, some will see, and Sorry, many will not !!! for those 
of age, remember we are the Biggest crowd. I can not see it, but remember several of you are presenting to grand children,
watch and view the industry


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes and no. 

The end of high-end engines. No. Probably get worse. 

Legacy? God I hope so. Obsolete system. LC+ has plenty of bandwidth if you are into tuning your volume and adjusting smoke and tuning off crew talk of converting it to crude talk or whatever you want., Lionel just has to add that capability - and the overall system so simpler and less sensitive to interference, etc. Sort of point and click versus an erector set.

Of course, when you add that bandwidth to LC+ and all those controsl of extra features, plug in a nice long-life rechargeable battery into the universal multi-feature/multi-loco addresseable remote, include the recharger, etc., well, you have high end prices again. So . . . I'm expecting it.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Just my 2¢:

1. I can't see Lionel dropping the Legacy system with so many existing users to support. More focus on simpler systems maybe. Maybe also, despite the fact that Legacy is based on pretty old technology, no significant improvements in that system can be expected at least in the short term, which would be a pity. 

2. High end offerings: My guess (and that's all any of this can be as I've no real insight into Lionel's business model and current sales figures) is that Lionel sold substantial numbers of the VL BB, but it and the GG1 were based on pre-existing tooling. We have not seen great innovation with die-cast models, as in entirely new tooling, since the ill-fated VL Centipedes. I can't see Lionel going in for new models of that kind although sooner or later they are going to run out of models to "recycle." I was sure they'd issue the AC-9 and include a Daylight option because the SP Daylight cab forward was a significant success and they had the AC-9 tooling as well as that for the cab forwards, which in both cases produced high quality models. It's a pity but I can't see them doing the sort of innovation that the Vision Line was originally meant to reflect. I'd be absolutely delighted to be proved wrong.

3. Other people will be better placed to comment on this if they wish but I suspect that differences over Lionel's future direction had a lot to do with Mike Reagan's departure. 

4. It's only speculation about what the private equity investor in Lionel wants but model trains are hardly a source of vast returns. There is only so much that can be squeezed out of purchasers even with significant brand loyalty. I frankly don't understand Lionel's current MSRP policy; pre-order discounts from the bigger dealers bring that price down by no small margin although the end result is still an increase over prices just a few years ago. I don't think it's as big an increase as some people do but that's a subject that has been done to death on the various forums. 

In other words, I don't think that the end is nigh but what I'd like to see in the way of new products probably isn't on the horizon.


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## Pebo (Sep 27, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> The end of high-end engines. No. Probably get worse.
> 
> ...


Lee....I agree with you. I think that's where we are heading in the next 5 years.

Peter


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> The end of high-end engines. No. Probably get worse.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%.
Lionel's trend is towards both High End/High Price and LionChief.
Just beware of LC+ Diesels. Steam Locos are good though.


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## PRSLDave (Apr 22, 2016)

While I totally understand that Lionel needs to do what's best for its business to survive, it would be a real shame to lose Legacy. Even with our limited budget, I made the investment because of the feature set and the availability (at the time) of Legacy locomotives at almost all price points but entry level. I admit to being bewildered by the popularity of Lion Chief. Next to Legacy it strikes me as "GeoTrax by Lionel" - and expensive GeoTrax at that. A different remote for each locomotive seems clunky, and no compatibility with Legacy/TMCC is even more bewildering. To those of you who are enjoying it, I truly mean no disrespect, this is just my own impression. I definitely miss the early days of Legacy when there were Legacy and conventional versions of lower end and mid range products - and a lot of them. 

In the Notch 6 interview with Jon Z from last fall I thought Jon talked about Bluetooth being an eventual bridge between Lion Chief and Legacy. I may not have heard that correctly, though. I sure hope some sort of interoperability is on the horizon. I don't see why one app couldn't control it all.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2017)

I think BTO (built to order) was the first indication of the demise of high end locomotives. Clearly, Lionel wasn't selling enough of them and tried BTO to assure sales. I'm guessing there aren't enough BTO reservations. 

LC and LC+ sell really well and the price is in the ballpark of the average 3 railer. I know that MTH sells far more Railking than Premier locos. In my own case, I'm not willing to pay $1000 or more for a locomotive, and I'm certainly not going to order one and hope it's built and I'll someday be able to run it.

Finally, Lee makes a good point. LC+ is very easy to use with virtually no signal problems. It doesn't require an expensive Legacy or DCS system and with Bluetooth anyone will be able to control a train with their smartphone or tablet.

I don't know that high end locos will completely go the way of the dinosaur, but I think the market is saturated and we will see less of BTO in the future. This is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2017)

The large engine future has much to do with potential sales. As Andy has suggested, the VLBB and the Cab Forward projects were obvious success stories. The Y6 re-release, probably not so much. I doubt that they have had a blockbuster large engine since the two mentioned above. The new AC 9 is not new tooling, so there is a big question if the market has already been saturated. 

Unless they produce a *desirable* brand new engine not done before in O-Gauge, and at the price points for the AC 9, large engine sales may not be robust. In this market, you have to be willing to invest or your sales may be mediocre.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

As you guys can see from my post count I am still fairly new. What is LC and LC +? 

I have done 2 BTO's. One I am still waiting on and not too happy. The order went in 3 months ago! Lionel should build to order not wait to get a bunch of orders then build. Isn't the underlying frame and electronics the same? 

The one that is on order is the GN "Hustle Muscle" which I doubt I will see in Lionel or MTH anytime after this so it's a must have. 

I am generally doing only Rock Island and UP. Obviously UP is well supported with offerings each catalog from all manufacturers. 

But if a high R.I. locomotive comes out in Imperial or Legacy, no matter the cost, I am buying. 

Like the GN Hustle Muscle. As for whether high end Lionel is going away, I wonder if the forum is a correct cross reference here. Some - including me - have sticker shock at these prices but there are a lot of "wealthy" model train guys out there. 

I liken it to my old hobby (somewhat still involved) - the old car hobby. I am out due to cost to restore BUT many baby boomers simply cut a check for their nostalgic car, like a 57 Chevy, for $30,000. "Gotta have it" because I worked all my life for stuff like this. 

When I read articles in the magazines, most of the authors are retired engineers, guys with more than enough money to buy a $750 to $1500 Lionel Legacy or top of the line model with the latest features. 

On the other hand, as mentioned in another thread I balance the expensive purchases with the Lion Chief level (or Williams/lesser MTH) of detail or older stuff off ebay. 

On a well done layout the effect that we seek from the hobby is still possible from the lesser detailed, less expensive stuff and it saves run time on the expensive equipment. 

I think we will see BOTH continuing into the future BUT the most distressing aspect of this is all of our conjecture. 

Wouldn't it be nice to have Lionel actually TELL us what is going on. Actually come on the forum or put out an annual statement or put it right there in the catalog?


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2017)

Bryan, LC is Lion Chief and LC+ is Lion Chief Plus. Since you mention LC I assume you know what that is. LC+ uses the same remote controller but is more sophisticated with better sound, cruise control, the ability to run by remote or conventional, and a few other features.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks Joe. I would think that LC and LC + would be a nice value as long as the quality is there. 

Being fairly new to the hobby, one aspect I notice is that modle trainers want more and more detail and "gee whiz" stuff, which costs the manufacturer and buyer more $ and 2. even LC and LC + are a lot better than what was available 15 years ago. 

I think I will check them out more. Now, it leads to the obvious next question - what is the difference between a $449 LC + and the Legacy or high end stuff that costs $699 to $1500?


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Bryan Moran said:


> Thanks Joe. I would think that LC and LC + would be a nice value as long as the quality is there.
> 
> Being fairly new to the hobby, one aspect I notice is that model trainers want more and more detail and "gee whiz" stuff, which costs the manufacturer and buyer more $ and ¢. even LC and LC + are a lot better than what was available 15 years ago.
> 
> I think I will check them out more. Now, it leads to the obvious next question - what is the difference between a $449 LC + and the Legacy or high end stuff that costs $699 to $1500?


I suggest you check out the Signature Catalog (http://catalogs.lionel.com/17c1/html5/#) at pages 14-15, 18-21 and 70-71 where Lionel's own description of the differences appears. There is considerably less in the way of sound, smoke and lighting features in the LC+ models. The SD40s that Lionel has cataloged in both Legacy and LC+ versions (pages 18-21) are advertised as having the same external body details so the real difference going forward may be what you want in terms of operating features and controls. 

LC+ has no more appeal to me than running engines in conventional mode only because I already have Legacy (and MTH DCS) command control and am used to using it. For someone new to the hobby or who does not want command control I can see the appeal of a simpler and cheaper system as long as they are content with a limited set of features.

P.S. I don't think we'll see Lionel putting LC+ in higher end steam loco body shells, which are manufactured to include smoke and lighting features that LC+ doesn't cater for. I suspect that much of the added cost of these locos is in the hardware and electronics to provide and operate these features.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2017)

Bryan Moran said:


> Thanks Joe. I would think that LC and LC + would be a nice value as long as the quality is there.
> 
> Being fairly new to the hobby, one aspect I notice is that modle trainers want more and more detail and "gee whiz" stuff, which costs the manufacturer and buyer more $ and 2. even LC and LC + are a lot better than what was available 15 years ago.
> 
> I think I will check them out more. Now, it leads to the obvious next question - what is the difference between a $449 LC + and the Legacy or high end stuff that costs $699 to $1500?


Most LC+ locos are traditional semi-scale rather than full scale size and don't have the details of Legacy. The SD60M in the new catalogue will be offered in Legacy for $649 and LC+ for $499. The details will be the same and both are full scale size. The $150 price difference is for the Legacy electronics.

I don't have a Legacy system and have no intention of ever buying one. LC+ will run on my curves, is in my price range, fits in with other traditional semi-scale trains, and is as simple as powering the track with any transformer and having wireless control with features that I like. I agree, LC+ is way better than what was offered 15 years ago. I don't care for conventional control. I like to walk around with the remote in hand and control my train rather than be tied to a fixed transformer.

I hope this answers your question.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Lots of speculation on the future of Lionel products. Legacy will continue to be Lionel's signature brand as long as it is profitable. If it ever goes into the red you can sound taps.

Bill


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## chipset35 (Sep 4, 2015)

This is how Lionel works...
Make as many Engines as you can that share the same base steam or diesel engine and just paint them differently.
Also, release a few extremely overpriced detailed, scale, "gigantor" steam engines that cost on average $2000 to subsidize your profits.
AVOID, any unique product that requires new tooling such as DD-1's, and other Box Cab electrics.
Keep 75% of the product line as the "Same Ol Sh+t" in a different wrapper.
Sports Teams, NASCAR, Beer, Fantasy and "What If" paint motif's introduce a variety of paint schemes on all the same tooling saves money and creates the illusion of a wide and varied product line.
Reduce inventory by using "Build To Order".
Not enough demand to justify inventory.


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## Jeff T (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm not a modeler, don't have a layout, I'm just the guy that has trains as a hobby. I'm not loyal to any particular railroad, or particular engine (although fond of E's and F's), just had trains as a kid and have carried that with me my whole life.

Unlike some who may have a vast collection of engines and rolling stock, what I have is meager by comparison. Every year I sort through what I have, sell some, buy some to mix it up.

Like so many, I started just sitting there with my little transformer watching my engine, no smoke and no ZW here, go round and round. Then came RailSounds and TMCC, OK I'm in. That brought my enjoyment of my winter hobby to a whole new level.

Somewhere along the way I found the model train internet forums. Lots of reading, lots of learning. Then allot more reading and allot more learning.

Then Legacy was introduced. OK, it will control my TMCC and then open up even more features in Legacy engines. I'm in! The sounds and announcements, engine specific then, better smoke all things that I liked. Next thing you know I spent a $1000 on a die cast ES44! And may I remind you, I don't have a layout.

Until recently I had done my best to ignore LC and LC+, heck I'm a Legacy guy! Christmas 2015 I acquired a LC Polar Express, or as I called it Legacy Lite. Did I like it, meh... No offense to those that have them and enjoy them, but to me they seemed like Lionels kids trains where Legacy were Lionels adult trains.

So, where am I going with all this... Not sure! But for me I prefer everything that makes a Legacy engine a Legacy engine. The details, the sounds, the smoke, the...

It's been 55 years since my first Lionel. Along the way I've had one Williams and two MTH engines, but keep going back to Lionel.

I certainly hope we are not witnessing the end of Legacy engines and the Legacy system. I would hope the reduction in Legacy engine offering is a concerted effort in getting things right as they are delivered to the consumer. We have all read about some of the recent issues with new products, we can't control what Lionel chooses to release, they do. I really hope they get it right.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. I am sure there are more guys browsing that find the differences interesting. 

I think Lionel is doing it right, offering different price points and features. LC+ would be my "normal" go to. I want detail and authenticity but not sure I need all the Legacy electronics all the time. 

With each level, a person can still enjoy a model train experience that is light years ahead of what it was 25 years ago. 

A budget for most of us, even though RTR is still a better value. I would add RTR to that mix, where Lionel seems to reach out to all budgets,


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## wmcwood (Oct 31, 2015)

I have both MTH and Lionel apps for tablet and smartphone. I still prefer the legacy remote. 
I have no battery, signal, or any other issues with it. Sure the technology is older but at this point anything 4 to 6 months old, is old technology. It still works well, I am not going to rush out to replace it! 
The new MTH premium app will control legacy engines (connected to a legacy base).
That would be the only reason I would start to use it over my legacy remote.


Regarding high end engines..... I don't think lionel makes a fortune on them. I am sure BTO was a route to accurately produce a quantity that would be sold and still sell at a profit. Weaver stopped making brass locomotives long before they closed. I don't think they would have done that if they were making a killing on them. 

This may be a hobby for us but it has to be business for them.
~Bill


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

First, welcome back Dave. Hope things are going better and I've been thinking of you/your family. Let me know if you need anything.

Control systems-why Lionel didn't make Legacy compatible with Lion Chief/+ is beyond me...it's their own systems. There's no business secrets here-they own both. They've preached "No train left behind" policy since TMCC/Legacy were introduced but offer LC/+... 

In the perfect world I could buy Lionel locomotives without Legacy control because I'd install DCC. Not knocking Legacy, it's great, but I'd much rather be able to run ALL my 2R AND 3R stuff from one remote.

Locomotives-Until something new arrives, I'm done. No interest in old tooling, especially $1,000 Mikes! Keep 'em!

It's a tough deal: Manfs don't want to invest in tooling and we don't want re-runs. Guess we'll do the waiting game in the mean time....on both sides!

Great news-I just checked outside and the sky is still there~!


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2017)

Aaron, you are 100% correct. The last big splash for Lionel were the VL Big Boys and the Cab Forwards. Both engines were a huge success. Since then, there seems to be a vast wasteland. Why, probably a lot of reasons. As you have suggested, rehash generally appeals to a more limited audience. 

For many of us, our pocketbooks will take another rest after this catalog.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

If the big-three never released another item I wanted, I have enough stuff to entertain me for the rest of my days. I'm not really worried.


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2017)

John, we are in the same boat. But boating season is three months away here.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If the big-three never released another item I wanted, I have enough stuff to entertain me for the rest of my days. I'm not really worried.


I'm in the same situation as you and Brian. I'm trying to give the wallet a rest but so many nice items have appeared on the secondary market I cannot help myself!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

If LC+ had a better sound system I would be more inclined to buy them. Especially the GP7, RS3 and the NW2. Other than that I like LC+. If you have young children you can hand them their own remote and let them have fun and they don't have to take turns. Or even if you have grown guest let them have fun. 

Even if Lionel or MTH stopped making high end engines, there will always be at train shows. Look at how many post war and MPC engines you can find all these years later and they are not manufactured anymore.


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks Aaron, I'm doing just fine. 

I started this thread and yes I do think there will be a shake out of all the manufactures. Top end items will always be made unless it is no longer profitable. Other types will have their nich. 
Tmcc/legacys platform is 20+ years old, MTH's is not far behind and in the technology world they are outdated so something will have to change in the next 4 or 5 years. Let's all just relax see what changes are ahead.

Dave


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm hoping they continue Legacy products. At 64 I'm really just getting into this hobby. I have my old 4-6-4 Hudson from when I was a kid, and a RTR set my wife and daughter bought for me back in 2008.

Just recently I purchased the Legacy SD90MAC and a CAB-2 remote. I was hoping to see more Legacy products in the SD90 price range in the future.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> If the big-three never released another item I wanted, I have enough stuff to entertain me for the rest of my days. I'm not really worried.


Ditto. I'm kinda glad there is nothing I want/need. I have enough trains but succumb too easily to temptation. I'm happy to not be tempted.


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## daschnoz (Dec 12, 2016)

I'm looking for a PRR K4s. I have looked all over and for what I want, both Lionel and MTH have what I am looking for (a K4s with command/control). Now, since I don't have any C/C hardware, I'm leaning toward MTH. The Legacy/Cab-1 base and the MTH DCS black boxes will set me back about the same $$, and for the addition of the Lionel control brick, I can use TMCC through the MTH DCS system to control any Legacy stuff that I may add in the future. This is what is driving my decision at the moment.

What I have not found is a PRR K4s with LC or LC+ (which would be perfect). Is it really *that* difficult to pull the Legacy circuit boards out of the shell and replace them with LC(+)????


If Lionel wants to continue the "build to order" business model, I think they would be better off making a list of options and offer the customers the ability to really customize their locomotives. Dell has been doing this exact thing for years in the computer business.


Locomotive Type (Steam) (base price $200)
Locomotive (K4s, 4-6-2)
Control system (LC+) (add $200)
Road Name (PRR)
Road color scheme (if it changed over the years)
Road Number (####)
Other item specific options

Give some option items a "Custom" pick with a price adder and a "comments" section to enter information for the custom request (most people understand that "custom" anything usually comes with a small price add). For example :: If you want a custom road number, add $15. If you want the paint job for a road that did not run your chosen locomotive, add $50.

It can't really be that difficult to do.


They're still trying to make "collector's items". The world has changed...


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

davidone said:


> After looking at the new catalogue it seems to me the high end may be coming to an end in the near future.
> 
> The RTR catalog seems to have the future with more sets, engines and Bluetooth added.
> 
> ...


Dave, I've been thinking about your original question. I don't think it's the end of high end locomotives but I think the Scale SD60 with LC+ is a trial. If it's successful Lionel will probably offer more high end locos as LC+ and less as Legacy. The $150 price difference is significant. The conventional control guy who doesn't have a Legacy system can buy this loco, save $150 and have a wireless remote high end loco.

I think the question is, is this the beginning of the end for Legacy? When Lionel went to BTO I thought it was the beginning of the end for the line. It meant that they couldn't sell enough of these locos and were looking for an alternative. LC+ might be that alternative. I think Lionel will always offer some very high end BTO locos like the VL Big Boy, but the balance of production may shift to high end LC+ if the SD60 is successful.

LC+ will run on any layout, Legacy, DCS and conventional, with no extra cost except the 3 AAA batteries if run with the remote. I don't think it's the end of high end locos, but a shift from Legacy to LC+.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

*Some more thoughts on this for what they are worth:*

*If Lionel is sharp and planned LC+well* then they probably have an upgrade path planned for Legacy in what I will call an LC++ world (LC++ being my nomenclasture for LC+ with added Legacy-and DCS-like control of volume, smoke, and all that piffle). I have no idea about if and how Lionel has to do this, but one idea . . . imagine a replacement for that little orange address "Thingee" that comes with a Legacy engine, or something easy to plug into the loco like that, maybe something that takes no more work than opening it upand changing the battery or etc. -- a tiny receiver that gets from the LC++ radio signal from the remote and converts it to something the existing Legacy circuit in the loco can work with. Now you can convert a Legacy loco to LC+. 

*Also note that an LC+ loco can co-exist on a loop with Legacy* now, which is both a good thing, and nice.

The final point I will make is that while LC+ started out as non-scale, mid/low tier priced, traditional sized locos, *Lionel has been moving up.* It has since made one scale loco (Camelback) and has its SD60M in the 2017 catalog as both Legacy and LC+. The LC+ version has a $150 list price advantage (30%). While many people may bemoan losing Legacy, everyone has been complaining about the escalating price of locos. Here is a 30% potential reduction -maybe less when Lionel adds more Legacy functions to wLC++. 

*Frankly, I'd rather have LC+ locos only from Lionel in the future,* but that is just me. I will probably pass on the Legacy AC-9, gorgeous as it is. But if an LC+ version were available for 30% less, or even just $150 less. I'd have already ordered it!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

My question is if they do eliminate Legacy and focus on LC+, will they jack up the price? The most expensive LC+ are the steam engines and F units and only because there are two A units. They charge separately for the B unit. All the things Legacy can do as far as the advanced Railsounds, recording routes, Fueling sound, water filling sound and tower com are not available with LC+. Are they going to add those features? That brings me back to jacking up the price. I guess it boils down to what you want. I don't like the LC+ Railsounds. There's nothing wrong with them I just don't like the lack of realism. I don't have any grandchildren (unless my son is holding out on me) or enough visitors to buy LC+ for them to run trains.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

Anyone planning on attending a funeral for the Legacy System is a bit overreacting. There are just too many loyal customers who really like it, and if it is dropped, I would predict a substantial part of their market would be lost. I don't think this is a gamble they are willing to take right now. 

I believe Menard's has taken a chunk out of the low end market, so doing anything that may effect the top tier would be dangerous.

Not to muddy the water, but Mike Reagan appears to be still out there, and we know he has a wealth of knowledge about Legacy. Remember his experience with TAS where he performed many TMCC conversions.

One thing for sure, the future looks interesting (to say the least).


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

Denny, I think the LC+ SD60 will answer all your questions. If it has the same Railsounds as other LC+ locos than I don't think it's meant to replace Legacy. It may just be an attempt to expand the LC+ line. If it has enhanced Railsounds than it might be the future of high end locos. Lionel has a lot of accessories operated by Legacy so it doesn't seem like they are looking to get rid of it, but who knows. We don't know how well high end Legacy BTO locos sell so we are all guessing what the LC+ SD60 and reduced number of BTO offerings means.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> Anyone planning on attending a funeral for the Legacy System is a bit overreacting. There are just too many loyal customers who really like it, and if it is dropped, I would predict a substantial part of their market would be lost. I don't think this is a gamble they are willing to take right now.
> 
> I believe Menard's has taken a chunk out of the low end market, so doing anything that may effect the top tier would be dangerous.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why we are having a conversation about the demise of Legacy because, as Brian suggests, there is so much more to be lost by withdrawing or even reducing support for it than there is to be gained.

This is how unfounded rumors start so let's go back to some present day realities. 

1. For sure, there is a limit to how far people are able (or at least willing) to spend what is actually charged to the customer - after dealer discounts - for high end models. Lionel's die cast steam engines have reached prices that now approach or exceed brass 3rd Rail products, which have greater prototypical detail but less in the way of operating features. I'm not going to speculate on their pricing strategy but I believe I know one thing: for that money, people are entitled to expect both quality control and innovation. Both are in short supply in the majority of Lionel's latest offerings. (The Legacy FEF-3 is a conspicuous exception on the QC front - why? Different factory/QC/design or what?)

2. To judge by what has been said over the last few months here and other forums, this shortfall between customer expectation and delivered product is a big turn off to at least one section of Lionel's customer base, which might well be their most loyal/enthusiastic and willing to consider spending on new products. 

3. So show me some improvement on both the innovation and QC fronts. That applies to both the lower cost and easier to operate systems as it does to Legacy models. What I see at the moment is progress on the former and just treading water on the latter. I don't like this emphasis because as a Legacy operator I don't like feeling shortchanged. But I don't think that it indicates the demise of Legacy - that would definitely not be in Lionel's own self-interest.

Speculation about the recent change in Lionel's senior personnel and its impact on Lionel's future might be off-limits because we do not know the background facts. But as I see it at the moment there's considerable room for improvement in Lionel's product offerings and a jolt from an outside source would be no bad thing, for them and us, IMHO. I dealt with MR and his colleagues at TAS and know him and them to be reliable - to say the least. I await with interest the next development on that front.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

davidone said:


> ...
> Tmcc/legacys platform is 20+ years old, MTH's is not far behind and in the technology world they are outdated so something will have to change in the next 4 or 5 years. Let's all just relax see what changes are ahead.
> 
> ...


Can't argue with that line of thinking. But then again, i also believe today's technology treadmill is moving far too fast for the average Joe or Jane to benefit.

Think back to the NTSC television video standard developed in 1941, and later updated in 1953 (maintaining compatibility with the original format) to handle color broadcasts. That standard lasted us well into the turn of the century when digital broadcasts became the norm. And nobody seemed lacking to enjoy color TV for over half a century! Heck, folks may have died before their television became completely obsolete!!!  I still have an older Sony TV I purchased in the early 1980's that we keep in a spare guest bedroom... and it's still working some 35 years later. 

It wasn't that long ago that Legacy kits/remotes were unavailable for over a year+ -- reportedly because a component was already obsolete and in need of alternate sourcing overseas. . And this was what? After 10 years max? 

Just sayin'... I'm more than happy with Legacy and DCS systems as they exist today. With the addition of WIFI capabilities, that's an added bonus, because it was built on top of the existing technology to bring added value.

Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in Lionel's LC and LC+ offerings, because they sit in parallel to Legacy rather than as a superset of Legacy. I don't even give the LC offerings in the catalog a second glance. Haven't for several catalogs, and I have no plans to start now -- primarily for one huge reason: there's no significant added value (for me). And if that means I buy less of Lionel down the road, so be it... I already have plenty of trains to be quite content for how ever many years the good Lord has planned for me.

David


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2017)

It would be totally impossible for anyone reading the content of this thread to realize how refreshing it is that an intelligent and in good taste conversation can go on about one of the giants in our hobby. I think Lionel could greatly gain by reading this content as it is all constructive and something of value.

Good job, Forum members!!!!!


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

_


Lee Willis said:



.....The final point I will make is that while LC+ started out as non-scale, mid/low tier priced, traditional sized locos, *Lionel has been moving up.* It has since made one scale loco (Camelback) and has its SD60M in the 2017 catalog as both Legacy and LC+. The LC+ version has a $150 list price advantage (30%). While many people may bemoan losing Legacy, everyone has been complaining about the escalating price of locos. Here is a 30% potential reduction -maybe less when Lionel adds more Legacy functions to wLC++.

Click to expand...

_Lee, do you really think that Lionel would _add_ Legacy functions to their lower end control system _and_ charge less for it??

What I think is happening here is that Lionel is offering scale locomotives with the LC+/Bluetooth system as an alternative to scale Legacy locomotives. Similar to when TMCC first arrived on the market when you could buy a TMCC locomotive or the same locomotive in conventional. 



Rocky Mountaineer said:


> Can't argue with that line of thinking. But then again, i also believe today's technology treadmill is moving far too fast for the average Joe or Jane to benefit.
> 
> Think back to the NTSC television video standard developed in 1941, and later updated in 1953 (maintaining compatibility with the original format) to handle color broadcasts. That standard lasted us well into the turn of the century when digital broadcasts became the norm. And nobody seemed lacking to enjoy color TV for over half a century! Heck, folks may have died before their television became completely obsolete!!!  I still have an older Sony TV I purchased in the early 1980's that we keep in a spare guest bedroom... and it's still working some 35 years later.
> 
> ...


Exactly, David. It may be different if Lionel combines Legacy/Bluetooth technology, but I've invested heavily into Legacy and DCS (and will add the WIFI capabilities soon) that works just fine as it is and have no real interest in acquiring locomotives with limited capabilities and a box full of remotes.

There certainly is a market for LC/LC+ but I seriously doubt Lionel would go backwards and phase out Legacy, especially after recently investing in the WIFI software and all the components that go with it.

But speaking of TV's. I bought a HD rear projection large screen tv back in 2001. In 2008 it stopped working, but I had a repair warranty. The repairman told me they no longer make the parts that were needed to fix it, but they did a nationwide search to locate the parts before they'd allow me to cash in the warranty. Of course none could be found so the store had no choice but to offer me a new tv worth the price I paid back in 2001. But since HD tv's were more expensive in 2001 during their relative infancy I was able to get for free a much larger 1080p tv.  They were scratching their heads on how someone would renew their warranty for a tv. LOL


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

You said it Brian (both Brians). :smilie_daumenpos: David's post got me to thinking about the time I bought my mother a answering machine. It was new at the time as far as technology. The buttons had the symbols on it for play, stop, FF. She didn't like that. She got out her label machine and made labels that said play, stop, FF and still had problems operating it. hwell:

One day she asked me if I think she would like a computer. I said no Mom, I don't think you would. At the time she was in her early 90's and I had nightmares about trying to show her how to operate it considering how much trouble she had with a answering machine. 

I have a lot of problems with new technology. I'm a rotary dial kind of guy. I've already fried several brain cells learning how to operate Cab1-L TMCC, but I'm better at it now. Cab2-L makes me ill. I can operate it, but I don't like it. Too many functions. I won't get started on me and computers. My smart TV makes my head hurt. I guess I'm my mother's son.hwell:


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

There are changes going on all across the hobby. Menards is selligng a ton of buildings that plug straight into the wall. Woodland Scenics has their lighting system that plugs into the wall . The trend is towards simple, easy, with the goal to get you towards running train faster.

While many people do eventual get to a place where they build their dream layout with all of the wiring and detailed scenery that comes with it, but face it, most people in the hobby are not even close that. Everything from a single loop around the tree in December to a 4x8 sheet of plywood with roads painted on on up. Few have ever had the time, money, or patience to go on to build the full out layout.

I think all of the train manufacturers are trying to figure out how to keep both the full-time hobbyists wanting the best of the best and how to introduce and keep the people less invested.

It's a hard balance and there is risk involved with alienating your consumers on either side of the spectrum. And so much is changing so quickly. Just look at what Menard's has done just in the past couple of years.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

Something I've been thinking about since I started reading this discussion.

My only Legacy purchase has been my recent acquisition of Lionel's UP SD90MAC. The price was high but (for me) not too obnoxious. Most Legacy steam locomotives on the other hand are out of my price range. At $1,000+ they're cost prohibitive to me.

My question is, from a manufacturing perspective, what goes into a Legacy steamer that justifies a doubling in price?

Or is Lionel marking them up because of demand?


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

highvoltage said:


> Something I've been thinking about since I started reading this discussion.
> 
> My only Legacy purchase has been my recent acquisition of Lionel's UP SD90MAC. The price was high but (for me) not too obnoxious. Most Legacy steam locomotives on the other hand are out of my price range. At $1,000+ they're cost prohibitive to me.
> 
> ...


You can find some of the lower end Legacy steam locomotives on the second hand market a good deal cheaper than new ones if you're patient.

That being said, I agree that the prices of them new is pretty obnoxious. Steam locomotives by nature though do have a lot of separately applied parts that need to be manufactured, and then applied. Think about all the rods and other drive components that diesels don't have. Many of the exterior details on diesels can be cast right into the shell (which is also usually plastic, vs diecast steam locomotives) because diesels usually aren't that heavy on the details except for a few specific roads. I'm still not sure that warrants an $1800 price tag, especially for certain models that used tooling from previous production runs, but I suppose they'll keep selling them if people keep buying them.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

santafe158 said:


> You can find some of the lower end Legacy steam locomotives on the second hand market a good deal cheaper than new ones if you're patient.
> 
> That being said, I agree that the prices of them new is pretty obnoxious. Steam locomotives by nature though do have a lot of separately applied parts that need to be manufactured, and then applied. Think about all the rods and other drive components that diesels don't have. Many of the exterior details on diesels can be cast right into the shell (which is also usually plastic, vs diecast steam locomotives) because diesels usually aren't that heavy on the details except for a few specific roads. I'm still not sure that warrants an $1800 price tag, especially for certain models that used tooling from previous production runs, but I suppose they'll keep selling them if people keep buying them.


Good point, didn't think about all the exterior components. Thanks.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2017)

highvoltage said:


> My question is, from a manufacturing perspective, what goes into a Legacy steamer that justifies a doubling in price?
> 
> Or is Lionel marking them up because of demand?


I don't think the demand is that high. If it was, Lionel wouldn't have gone to BTO. In fact, I think the price is so high because production is low. There aren't many units to spread the initial cost over. And I agree that all the separately applied detail parts drive the price up as well.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

santafe158 said:


> You can find some of the lower end Legacy steam locomotives on the second hand market a good deal cheaper than new ones if you're patient.


I've picked up a few Legacy pieces at good prices.

Here's one example. Legacy 2-Truck Shay, $300 on eBay. Other than fixing the loose LED in the headlight, it runs like a top.









Then there was a pair of these when they were blowing them out at $249 NIB, hard to pass that up. For the price of a typical Legacy locomotive, I got two. I never did fully understand what happened there, but I was happy to take advantage of it.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Country Joe said:


> I don't think the demand is that high. If it was, Lionel wouldn't have gone to BTO. In fact, I think the price is so high because production is low. There aren't many units to spread the initial cost over. And I agree that all the separately applied detail parts drive the price up as well.


Joe, do you think that's why some of the Legacy engines are 'built-to-order'? That way they don't produce a lot of engines that don't sell right a way.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Then there was a pair of these when they were blowing them out at $249 NIB, hard to pass that up. For the price of a typical Legacy locomotive, I got two. I never did fully understand what happened there, but I was happy to take advantage of it.


I picked up a pair of these PRR U28C's for that price too. The big stink with these units was that there is no PRR logo on one side of the engine and two on the other side. A lot of people returned them for that reason but it didn't bother me a bit.

Looking back, the funny thing was at York they were displayed with the logos facing out and the non logo side in the back so you couldn't notice it. For the price, even if I noticed I would have bought them. They run and sound great even without the PRR logos!


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

highvoltage said:


> Something I've been thinking about since I started reading this discussion.
> 
> My only Legacy purchase has been my recent acquisition of Lionel's UP SD90MAC. The price was high but (for me) not too obnoxious. Most Legacy steam locomotives on the other hand are out of my price range. At $1,000+ they're cost prohibitive to me.
> 
> ...


In 1957, if your parents spent $120 on a model train set, that equals $1,049.70 today, or what I paid for a Legacy Berkshire (preorder price). 

I know guys that have train sets from 1959 - a Lionel 0-27 Northern Pacific work train with track, switches, and transformer with the sales tag on it: Cost was $59.99 or $501.16 in today's dollars. 

Seems to me Lionel is just keeping pace with inflation.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Mine came that way, but I just rounded up appropriate PRR decals and solve the problem. 

You'll note that picture was before I got the decals installed.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

John, yes I did notice the missing decals on yours. I haven't gotten around to adding any to mine yet.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Volphin said:


> In 1957, if your parents spent $120 on a model train set, that equals $1,049.70 today, or what I paid for a Legacy Berkshire (preorder price) . . .
> 
> Seems to me Lionel is just keeping pace with inflation.


I have gone through the same thought process and at first came to much the same conclusion. However I am not sure that inflation alone, at least in the sense of increases in Chinese manufacturing costs, really accounts for the recent rises in Lionel's prices. 

Bearing in mind that they are owned by a private equity investor which is not in this business to make model trains for the sake of nostalgia, I think that there must be pressure to increase both Lionel's revenue stream and margin on higher end products. The PE investor will want to sell on at some stage and needs to maximize sale value.

As to the profit margin, the fact that old tooling is being recycled on Legacy steamers (the list is long - including BB, AC-12 cab forward, FEF-3, Allegheny and now AC-9) and what I regard as the dumbing down of the scale passenger car offerings (no passengers and molded interior assemblies without separately applied details) seems to me to be an effort to wring more profit out of these products by limiting the new investment necessary to make them. 

Lionel's scale passenger car set prices have not actually moved dramatically over the last 10-12 years, which is basically the period I have been collecting them. I go along with Volphin's thinking in this respect but the product has changed and is not now as detailed as it once was. In a sense, it's less car for roughly the same number of bucks.


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## daschnoz (Dec 12, 2016)

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but since the thread deals with the future of the hobby, I figured it was as good a place as any.

I was thinking - One of the nice things about the Legacy control is the latch-up feature. How to do it with LC+...

Follow along
Lionel would need to:

Put a wireless tether RX/TX on both ends of the locomotives.
Add a switch for Master/Slave on the LC+ remote.

To latch-up and run:

Park loco #1 on the track.
Couple loco #2 to loco #1.
Flip loco #2 to slave mode. Loco #2 will now get its motion control signals from loco #1 through the wireless tether added above.
On the controller for loco #2, turn the motion dial all the way up in whatever direction is necessary to make loco #2 run in the same direction as loco #1 when loco #1 is running forward. SO as an example, to double head 2 steam locos where both face forward, set loco #2 to run forward. To double head 2 diesel locos when they are back-to-back, set loco #2 to run in reverse.
Loco #2 will also pass the motion control commands through itself in the event that you are latching more than 2 locos.
Bell and horn sounds for slave locos can still be controlled from their unique remotes, or possibly disabled entirely.

This assumes that you are running 2 identical locos. If you are running dissimilar locos with different top speeds, make the slowest loco the master and adjust the speed control down on the slave locos to match the max speed of the master.

Maybe the solution is almost too simple and people are overthinking the problem. Maybe??


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

daschnoz said:


> I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but since the thread deals with the future of the hobby, I figured it was as good a place as any.
> 
> I was thinking - One of the nice things about the Legacy control is the latch-up feature. How to do it with LC+...
> 
> ...


Definitely over thinking. With LC+ you just need the same road name and they will run off one remote. I have run two engines without going through the lash up programing. This video show a ABA LC+ all running off one remote The A & B units are powered. If they were different road names you couldn't do this.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

HarborBelt1970 said:


> As to the profit margin, the fact that old tooling is being recycled on Legacy steamers (the list is long - including BB, AC-12 cab forward, FEF-3, Allegheny and now AC-9) and what I regard as the dumbing down of the scale passenger car offerings (no passengers and molded interior assemblies without separately applied details) seems to me to be an effort to wring more profit out of these products by limiting the new investment necessary to make them.


Doesn't this sound familiar? Lionel began doing the same thing starting in the mid-1950s by scaling down the detail on many of its trains as the retail prices for them continued rising. 

When I got back into O scale railroading in the late 1980s and purchased most of my stuff from Charles Ro, I was disappointed that I was paying much higher prices for "old tooling" items which just hadn't changed that much.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2017)

DennyM said:


> Joe, do you think that's why some of the Legacy engines are 'built-to-order'? That way they don't produce a lot of engines that don't sell right a way.


Yes Denny, that's what I think. When Lionel first introduced BTO they said they were doing it so there wasn't an inventory of unsold units. This would keep the price up since there wouldn't be any BTO locos on clearance discount. I think it means they can't sell that many of them. LC+ isn't built to order and the units sell very well. Lionel isn't worried about them sitting in a warehouse or store shelf losing value. I've got nothing against BTO, Legacy, Vision Line or any other O gauge trains. I'm just trying to read the signs and understand what they mean.


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## ogaugenut (Dec 27, 2012)

One other dimension to this is that there is to me an inherent problem with the proliferation of operating systems, regardless of their individual merits. We have conventional, TMCC, Legacy, DCS, DCC, Bluetooth, LC, LC+, Wi-Fi, Bluerail, etc., etc. I have most of them. When I build a large layout hopefully in the next few years, I would like to set up some computer control. The diversity of operating systems makes this difficult. As an old guy with lots of old conventional stuff, there is already some awkwardness in mixing command with conventional. While I have put ERR boards in some of my old conventional, very expensive to do this completely.

Bill


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## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

My 2 cents on the subject; I don't like to spend a lot of money on engines and remote control systems. There are currently 2 command control systems and 1 remote control system by WBB that is separate from the other 2, so there are really 3 remote control systems if you have a Williams by Bachmann operating car.

Another thing that gets me is the price tag for new transformers, almost $800.00 for the new ZW-L. Or the new price for an MTH Z-4000 almost $400.00, I could buy 4 MTH Z-1000's for about the same money and have accessory outputs as well as 4 trains being controlled. 

Lee Fritz


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Bill and Lee, I was using a KW then a PW ZW to run my layout. Eventually traded The ZW in for a ZW-C. It work Like a ZW-L, but in command mode it only responds to the older CAB1 TMCC. 

There is a newer processor that will respond to the newer CAB1-L TMCC. Though when I installed it in mine it stopped working. I did something wrong. Mike Reagan has a video on how to do this which is how I knew about it. Now I use a Lionel Powermaster which is powered by a 180w brick it runs in command and conventional modes. I can control my conventional engines with the Cab1-L remote just like a transformer. This also works with the Cab2-L.

There's a switch on the Powermaster that you can switch to command or conventional modes. So far it's working great and I didn't give up a kidney to do it. Maybe years down the line if and when the ZW-L comes down in price maybe I'll consider buying it.


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## SuperChiefer84 (Feb 8, 2017)

New member here and first post also!

I'm 32 yo and just now getting back into the hobby. I've been buying Lionchief plus engines. I pre-ordered 2 of the new bluetooth SD60M's plus a bluetooth GP7. I thought about going with Legacy, but I don't have a layout yet so everything is temporary and Lionchief plus is perfect for me and my son. I really excited about the coming bluetooth locos that open up another world for things like additional features and sounds through updates.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Welcome SuperChiefer84,

LionChief Plus is perfect for kids. My friend had his three year old grandson running LC+ like a pro. Plus whenever you get a layout built and you son has friends over you can hand them a remote each and run several trains at one time. I've run both LC+ and Legacy/TMCC.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

Welcome from me too.

I see the point of your decision. When I got into the hobby there was basically the choice between conventional control and TMCC/DCS so far as O gauge 3 Rail goes. I started with conventional but pretty soon realized what I was missing without command control. If you're interested enough in the hobby to be posting here you might eventually travel a similar road from the simpler and cheaper Lionel models to Legacy.

However, the important thing is to enjoy whatever you run whenever you can run it. I fear I spend as much (if not more) time tuning, modifying and repairing what I have as running it! I have learned to like learning about the technology.


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## Pebo (Sep 27, 2015)

SuperChiefer84 said:


> New member here and first post also!
> 
> I'm 32 yo and just now getting back into the hobby. I've been buying Lionchief plus engines. I pre-ordered 2 of the new bluetooth SD60M's plus a bluetooth GP7. I thought about going with Legacy, but I don't have a layout yet so everything is temporary and Lionchief plus is perfect for me and my son. I really excited about the coming bluetooth locos that open up another world for things like additional features and sounds through updates.


SuperChief84......my personal opinion is that Legacy features will gradually be added to the LionChief Bluetooth format over time. I believe we are looking at a glimpse of the future.

...and, by the way.... welcome to the MTF!

Peter


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