# Help with flyer e-unit



## Ron M (Mar 18, 2016)

New to flyer trains. I am cleaning up a 343 switcher for a friend. It was rusty and dirty but has cleaned up nicely. Motor runs great if I bypass the e-unit. From what I read this is a late model, has stenciled date of Sept 65 on btm side of cab. The e-unit is mounted to back side of the motor. The drum in this unit is smaller in diameter and longer that other drums I have seen or read about. I have removed the drum and fingers and clean cleaned and polished them. My questions 
1. There is a copper contact piece located at the end opposite of the drum from the plastic gear that the pawl engages. This was not touching the drum shaft when I removed the shell. Is this a contact or just a spring to tension the shaft? It is removable when the e-unit mounting screw is loosened.

I have found several wiring diagrams but none of them show the same wire locations and I do not know where some of the wires are suppose to attach as the labeling is mostly non-existant. I have wired it as it was before I started but the unit does not work I can work the pawl feeder by hand and it is free and moves freely.

This loco does have smoke.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance 

Ron


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Hello and welcome...The 343 was made from 1953-1958.I don't know where that stamped # came from. I really can't help much with this one as the only switcher I have is a 342AC...Sorry..


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

The last 0-8-0 was made in 1958 as the 21145, they are rare. If a locomotive has a date stamp it would be inside the shell on the top. Regarding the reverse unit., take a look at pages 113, 117 and 118 of the Factory Service Manual. This is all that was published by the factory on the original obsolete remote control unit and the updated replacement.
The manual is online at myflyertrains.org.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AmFlyer said:


> The last 0-8-0 was made in 1958 as the 21145, they are rare. If a locomotive has a date stamp it would be inside the shell on the top. Regarding the reverse unit., take a look at pages 113, 117 and 118 of the Factory Service Manual. This is all that was published by the factory on the original obsolete remote control unit and the updated replacement.
> The manual is online at myflyertrains.org.


A good friend of mine has 2 complete sets, one of which has never been run..I know a serious collector who, when he sees me at train shows, always asks me if my buddy is ready to sell...


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## Ron M (Mar 18, 2016)

Thank you all for the reply's. I looked again at the date and I did not look close enough the first time. Stenciled with faded white paint it is Sept 55. My friend got this from an older friend of his. Has been sitting in a basement for years. Appears to have very little run time but was rusty. Any ballpark idea as to value I can report to him. I am almost certain he would not part with it as he collects many different things and it is rare when he parts with anything. Appreciate the lead to look at the factory sheets on the e-unit.

Ron


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

There is a logic to these. The engines are reversed by reversing the connections to the motor field. The two wires are connected to the inner fingers of each board, the outer fingers are connected to each rail. Each motor brush has to connect to a rail . The reverse unit light bulb and smoke unit have to connect to each rail to work.

The diagrams just lay it all out.

In some cases the brush connections can go to the inside fingers and the motor field just connects to each rail. Either way works . Marx engines reverse the field and Lionel normally reverses the brushes, In either each manufacturer has exceptions.

So look at the inner fingers of the top and bottom board and see what it connects to.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Flyernut, good to see you posting again. If you friend has 2 20460 sets, one never run, he is in possesion of desirable and valuable sets. My thought would be the value for these could be at peak and is now the time to sell?
Ron M, value is highly dependent on condition and somewhat dependent on geographic location. For example Flyernut can buy things much cheaper at shows in upstate New York than I can in Southern California. If the 343 were a full excellent the retail would be $400 or slightly higher, add some if the original packaging is included. Wholesale would be half that. These prices are approximate based on whims of the buyer and seller on any given day. If the condition is less the value will drop substantially.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

T-Man, your description sounds like a parallel connected motor. The Gilbert motors are series motors so the field cannot be connected directly to the rails. I assume by rails you mean track power. The Gilbert reverse unit keeps the armature and field in series but reverses the current flow direction through the armature relative to the field. What Ron M is trying to figure out is how some of these mid 50's running changes Gilbert made on the reverse in boiler engines work in his particular engine. Some of these have one connection grounded to the shell and some do not, plus Gilbert obsoleted the first engine mounted reverse unit during 343 production. While I have not personally seen all the variations I understand both 4 position and 2 position reverse units were installed in 343's. I find all these a engine mounted units a real pain to service so I look for the earlier 343's with tender mounted reverse units.
The wiring and operation is conceptually straightforward but these units were not made with service as a priority unlike the tender mounted units. I wish I had some pictures of the wire connections for the variations to share but I do not.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

AmFlyer said:


> Flyernut, good to see you posting again. If you friend has 2 20460 sets, one never run, he is in possesion of desirable and valuable sets. My thought would be the value for these could be at peak and is now the time to sell?
> Ron M, value is highly dependent on condition and somewhat dependent on geographic location. For example Flyernut can buy things much cheaper at shows in upstate New York than I can in Southern California. If the 343 were a full excellent the retail would be $400 or slightly higher, add some if the original packaging is included. Wholesale would be half that. These prices are approximate based on whims of the buyer and seller on any given day. If the condition is less the value will drop substantially.


Nice to feel good again.. I have to go back Wednesday for x-rays, and then for a follow up with the surgeon. I do feel much better, and thanks for asking. My buddy won't sell those trains, no matter what. His Dad, long gone now, bought his 2 boys the sets in question. My buddy played with his, but the brother had no desire for trains. When said brother passed away, my buddy got his set. The one loco I tested for him was a very picky runner, and we couldn't get it running successfully. Be cause of the value, I told him to take it to a professional. That 343 should bring at least $200 bucks, possibly more depending on condition, boxes, etc. I paid $150 for my 342AC, I think,lol...


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## Ron M (Mar 18, 2016)

Appreciate the reply's. Will not be able to do much with it for a couple of days but will stay with it. It is interesting and fun to learn about this. I have decided I would like to have a couple of flyer units for myself and will keep my eyes open. Population here is sparse but it is interesting where one stumbles upon such items.

Ron


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Ron M said:


> Appreciate the reply's. Will not be able to do much with it for a couple of days but will stay with it. It is interesting and fun to learn about this. I have decided I would like to have a couple of flyer units for myself and will keep my eyes open. Population here is sparse but it is interesting where one stumbles upon such items.
> 
> Ron


Entry level flyer units can be very inexpensive.. The 301 302, 303, 307, are some of my favorites, and inexpensive. Expect to pay around $25-$40 dollars for one. Next are the 312's, 322's and Northerns. Die-cast loco with die-cast tenders, nice detail, great runners. Of course, I'm generalisng, but you get the picture.


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## Kahl (Nov 19, 2015)

I was working on one of these reverse unit this weekend. Hope these picture help.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Kahl said:


> I was working on one of these reverse unit this weekend. Hope these picture help.


I absolutely hate those,lol!!!! I steer clear of all 5-digit locos...That being said, I worked on a 21085 just last week with several wires detached. I wish I still had it here so I could trace the wiring for you...


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Let me see what I can do......the top wire and the small coated wire goes to the top solder lug I see in the picture. The lower wire in the picture as well as the other small wire goes to the solder lug that is closest to the picture.


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## Ron M (Mar 18, 2016)

Flyer nut thanks for the info on the engines Nice to know some approx value and models that are good runners 
Kahl Appreciate the picture and comments Hope to get back to it in a day or so

Ron


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

AmFlyer said:


> T-Man, your description sounds like a parallel connected motor. The Gilbert motors are series motors so the field cannot be connected directly to the rails. I assume by rails you mean track power. The Gilbert reverse unit keeps the armature and field in series but reverses the current flow direction through the armature relative to the field. What Ron M is trying to figure out is how some of these mid 50's running changes Gilbert made on the reverse in boiler engines work in his particular engine. Some of these have one connection grounded to the shell and some do not, plus Gilbert obsoleted the first engine mounted reverse unit during 343 production. While I have not personally seen all the variations I understand both 4 position and 2 position reverse units were installed in 343's. I find all these a engine mounted units a real pain to service so I look for the earlier 343's with tender mounted reverse units.
> The wiring and operation is conceptually straightforward but these units were not made with service as a priority unlike the tender mounted units. I wish I had some pictures of the wire connections for the variations to share but I do not.


Thanks after seeing the pictures it is a different beast.


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