# Power to track



## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Hello, I was about 11 years old the last time I had a train set. Now I'm in my fiftys and want to get in to the hobby. I know there is not a lot out there for the S gauge stuff but I like the what everybody doesn't have. I have recently purchased a AM 4-8-4 Northern locomotive & tender and came with a handheld remote. It has all the stuff on soud, smoke, light, and so on. It also has switches to go from AC to DC. My question is how do I power the track? I do not want to use fast-track(I don't like the way it look). I have the lionel 180 watt power house. This is what the guy at the lionel store sold me. He also said That I need a TMCC Lock-on. I have done a little research on the tmcc and not sure this will work. Looking for any help on what else I need to power up the track.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Welcome to the MTF! I am unsure what you purchased. AM is American Models, they did not make any engines with command control so none are sold with a remote. Is it possibly an American Flyer by Lionel? There is a 4-8-4 with FlyerChief that comes with a blue colored handheld remote. This engine should be run with AC track power which could be supplied from the 180W powerhouse.
Befor proceeding any further you need to decide on what track you will use. If Gilbert, then just use a 690 track clip to power the track. If you choose GarGraves they have several ways to connect power leads to their track. I do not know why you would need a TMCC lock-on unless the Powerhouse has a mating connector to match it. A TMCC or Legacy 4-8-4 has never been made.
Shown below is one of the AF by Lionel FlyerChief 4-8-4's. Let us know what you have.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Welcome, lots of nice people here with a huge amount of knowledge.


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Hi, and thanks for your response. I'll add a couple pictures of what I have for an engine one of the pictures is the side of the box it came in and the other is the train itself. I also added a picture of the plug on the end of the power supply. I need to go from that to bare wire. If I can avoid cutting the plug og i would ratherdo that. In-between the power supply and track don't I need some kind of breaker? Im guessing thats whatthe TMCC is for. As far as track. I'm not sure of what I'm going to use. I'm thinking GarGraves, or I have found a place on-line that sells all the stuff including jigs to buil track from scratch. But in either case I was just planning on soldering the wire to the rails.(the pictures are in reversed order).


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Welcome to the forum Ledfoot. Love your 808 FlyerChief steamer. Very nice. I have 2 of the
FlyerChief Berkshires. I really like the remotes and the locomotives. They run well. I can not help 
with your connections. I do not have your equipment. I use a Lionel ZW transformer. If your track
will take solder, thats the way to go.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

You have the UP version of the NYC FlyerChief engine I posted above. The 4-8-4's are the early versions of FlyerChief so they do not have Bluetooth like the newer Flyerchief engines do.
I hate those proprietary connectors and do not have a Powerhouse 180 for reference. I use the ZW-L for track power. I think your Powerhouse has built in circuit protection, it would be in the User Manual.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

I went to the Lionel site to look at the Powerhouse 180's. I see why the TMCC direct lockon was recommended. I think the TMCC Direct Lockon device can be connected to the track with just two wires, U is Base Post and A is 7-15V Post in Gilbert speak. Lionel has posted videos on YouTube describing how to connect and use this stuff. All the videos are 3 rail but it translates to 2 rail easily.


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

mopac said:


> Welcome to the forum Ledfoot. Love your 808 FlyerChief steamer. Very nice. I have 2 of the
> FlyerChief Berkshires. I really like the remotes and the locomotives. They run well. I can not help
> with your connections. I do not have your equipment. I use a Lionel ZW transformer. If your track
> will take solder, thats the way to go.



Thanks, I was looking at the Berkshires too. I do like them and almost bought on3 but there is a Lionel retail store where I live and the 808 was on sale so I bought it. I will probably get a Berkshire once I get a layout up and running. Im not so far into-this to where I can't change direction on what I'm using. What kind equipment do you run?


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

mopac said:


> Welcome to the forum Ledfoot. Love your 808 FlyerChief steamer. Very nice. I have 2 of the
> FlyerChief Berkshires. I really like the remotes and the locomotives. They run well. I can not help
> with your connections. I do not have your equipment. I use a Lionel ZW transformer. If your track
> will take solder, thats the way to go.



Thanks, I was looking at the Berkshires too. I do like them and almost bought on3 but there is a Lionel retail store where I live and the 808 was on sale so I bought it. I will probably get a Berkshire once I get a layout up and running. Im not so far into-this to where I can't change direction on what I'm using. What kind equipment do you run?


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Tom, I red through the manual and did not see that it has a brake built in. I replied to another post(mo-pac) that I can change direction on power and or even controller. I like the Digitrax set up but not sure on how the system would work with the Engine that I have. Not sure if it would need a decoder or if it is even compatible ? I like the idea of being able to run more than one train with one unit. Unless Im misunderstanding how they work? I will look up the ZW-L. And thanks for the info

Roger


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Roger, FlyerChief engines do not have a brake feature, Only TMCC and Legacy have that. Your blue remote will only run the engine it came with. Lionel makes an orange remote that will control three FlyerChief engines. There is also an App that will control multipe engines and also alllows more fine tuning of the sounds. FlyerChief engines are not compatible with DCC controllers. The new FlyerChief engines have BlueTooth that can also be used for control.
If you buy a complete DCC system the FlyerChief engines will run using the blue remote and the DCC track power. DCC engines can then be run independently at the same time on the same track with a DCC remote. Even better, all S gauge Legacy engines since 2012 are DCC compatible. They can be run on a DCC layout using the DCC handheld. If you are at all considering DCC conversions of the Gilbert engines I recommend not buying FlyerChief engines, spend the extra money for the Legacy engines so all your motive power will run with one control system. It is also simpler to add DCC to American Models engines than to retrofit them with TMCC.
I recommend you go to YouTube and search on Chuck Kemper. His channel will come up. He has converted a number of American Models and other engines to DCC on his AmericanFlyer Layout. I think looking at his videos will be informative.


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Hi Tom, I think I confused you, I know the engine doesn't have a brake. I was referring to a circuit breaker for In-between the track and power supply. I will check out the videos you mentioned. If I wanted to go DCC would Digitrax system work?
Thanks for the info.


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## kilowatt62 (Aug 18, 2019)

Ledfoot, you wrote brake, not breakerin post #10. That was the Problem.


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

10-4, I do not spell very well when I'm typing because I don't typ well. So I will probably have some miss spelled words. And I use my phone it a hole lot worse. So I apologize in advance.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Roger, as far as decoders for the engines ESU-LokSound appear to be the most popular for S retrofits. Scale Trains is modifying the S gauge and HO gauge engine lineup they acquired from MTH to delete the DCS electronics and use ESU LokSound. As far as DCC systems there are several popular brands. I do not have any experience with DCC so I am the wrong person to make a recommendation. 
I will say this. The HO people will say a 5A booster is adequate. It is not in S gauge. My layout is AC Legacy operated, I have two ZW-L's powering the layout track, a total of 80A because I have eight separate Power Districts. That is overkill. The most I have ever drawn with six trains running is 25A, but every time I operate the layout the amperage draw to the track exceeds 10A. I have separate power supplies for all other items, only the track is connected to the ZW-L's. The amperage draw would be the same operating a Legacy engine on DCC as it is using Legacy. A large Legacy steamer with one or two smoke units, two motors, sound and 10 passenger cars with incandescent lighting, the amperage draw for that train is about 4A. In my world life is too short to disassemble 30 AM Budd passenger cars to install LED replacement lighting, let alone the 60 AM heavyweight passenger cars that came with incandescent lighting. It is far easier to follow the Tim Allen practice of More Power!


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

I have a digitrax DCC system for my HO trains. When I ordered it I went the 8 amp system. Was only 20.00 more than the 5 amp. 8 amp is overkill for HO. Kind of a Tim Allen thing like Tom said. Be carefull with anything around 8 amp. You can weld the wheels to the rails with a derail and a short.
I love DCC and I think Digitrax is a very good unit. I also bought a 8 amp booster (never used it). Bad timing for me as about the same time I bought the Digitrax I started S scale. I only have 3 DCC Ho engines. Just used my Digitrax system enough to know it is cool. (not looking to sell it) I have 4 or 5 hundred in it. Maybe 6 or 7 hundred with the booster. I do not remember. I guess I could use it if I go DCC S scale. I went all out. I bought the radio wireless control and an extra remote, also wireless), so I could have 2 people running. The extra remote was really for my wife to get her more into my trains. She did think it was neat if she had her own remote. She had cancer and died before she got to use it. I am slow on setting things up.


ESU-LOKSOUND decoders had the best sound. I have one unit with it. Maybe my
UP 4014 BigBoy.

If you can get it worked out, DCC is the way to go. But only if you like total control of an engine. LOL. Sound, lights, running.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, all you need to do is buy a Legacy engine, connect that 8A booster to the track from the Digitrax controller and you will be running trains with your now-unused DCC system. Warning, I challenge you to buy only one Legacy engine.You could even buy one (or more) of the really nice MTH S gauge engines made with DCS 3.0. They were in the 2019/2020 MTH catalog. The DCS 3.0 S gauge engines also run on DCC. No need to fuss with difficult DCC conversions, there are RTR engines from Lionel and MTH. 
Even better, once the DCC system is out of the box you can also connect it through a second breaker to an inside loop of HO track and run that HO 4014 alongside the S gauge engines, all with the same handheld.
If I were there that DCC system would already be connected and some Legacy engines in the mail. Use a DPDT switch so either the AC transformer or the 8A booster can be connected to the S gauge track.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Tom, I did see something on a Legacy box about DCC as one of the running methods.
Does it come with a decoder already installed?


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

AmFlyer said:


> Roger, as far as decoders for the engines ESU-LokSound appear to be the most popular for S retrofits. Scale Trains is modifying the S gauge and HO gauge engine lineup they acquired from MTH to delete the DCS electronics and use ESU LokSound. As far as DCC systems there are several popular brands. I do not have any experience with DCC so I am the wrong person to make a recommendation.
> I will say this. The HO people will say a 5A booster is adequate. It is not in S gauge. My layout is AC Legacy operated, I have two ZW-L's powering the layout track, a total of 80A because I have eight separate Power Districts. That is overkill. The most I have ever drawn with six trains running is 25A, but every time I operate the layout the amperage draw to the track exceeds 10A. I have separate power supplies for all other items, only the track is connected to the ZW-L's. The amperage draw would be the same operating a Legacy engine on DCC as it is using Legacy. A large Legacy steamer with one or two smoke units, two motors, sound and 10 passenger cars with incandescent lighting, the amperage draw for that train is about 4A. In my world life is too short to disassemble 30 AM Budd passenger cars to install LED replacement lighting, let alone the 60 AM heavyweight passenger cars that came with incandescent lighting. It is far easier to follow the Tim Allen practice of More Power!



Thanks for the info its helping me find the direction I want to go. I went back to the local Lionel store today and asked about exchanging the engine i just got and getting a Legacy of similar look. They do have one steamer in the Legacy but not sure if I like the look of it. And I like the idea of more power! And thanks again for all the info!!


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Tom, What kind of breaker should be used?


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

If using DCC system the system will have a breaker. Digitrax has an accessory item that
you can set to blow at a lower amp setting. I got me a couple of them. Sorry I do not know the part number or official name. Its a power distribution item. It has 4 distribution districts. Makes it easier to find a short also. Each district has a breaker.

Ledfoot, check Charles RO.com. Tom and me buy from there. They usually have best price and cheap shipping. They have Legacy engines under S scale. Thats where my FlyerChiefs are from.

Check out BlueridgeHobbies.com for Digitrax equipment. I bought mine there and they were by far the best price. Shop around. I like the best deals.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is a new Legacy Pacific, these are nice engines, I bought three different road names. The next picture is a Legacy Berkshire under the coaling tower.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Tom, if I ever get my S layout built. I am going to have maybe 3 loops. One could be DCC.
I think you said FlyerChiefs will not work on DCC. They come with wireless remote. Thats
a big deal to me.


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Ok, Im really starting to think this the way I'm going to go. The only other issue I see is that it does not have a setting for "S" gauge/Scale. I was just reading on the Digitrax web page and it doesn't really tell you what voltage it puts out in the different setting. I red in the manual for the engine that I have is that it needs 18 volts to run. I'm thinking that if you put it in the setting for the "O/G" scale setting that will give enough voltage to run the engine? Or am I way off track? or over thinking it?


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Tom, I really like the Legacy Berkshire.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Roger, I believe you are taking some of the Lionel numbers too literally. The significance of the 18V in the Lionel manual is it is both the maximum voltage the engines are designed to use and the voltage the Lionel PowerMasters output. I run all my S gauge Legacy engines with 14.5V on the track and everything works perfectly. I did a lot of testing with lower voltages, 13.5 is the minimum voltage for reliable operation. At 12.5V the electrocouplers fail to fire about 50% of the time. With 14V to 15V output from a DCC system all your engines will work with no problems. What you do not want is 21V, which is common for the larger scales, such as G scale. 21V will damage the engine electronics.


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## AmFlyer (Mar 16, 2012)

Mopac, your simple question has a complicated answer. First, FlyerChief engines will run with DCC track power but will not respond to a DCC controller. Just use its Blue FlyerChief controller as normal.
Legacy engines do not have a DCC decoder nor do they need one. Lionel has made their S gauge engines DCC compatible, not DCC compliant. What this means is the Legacy system boards installed in the engine and tender are operating the engine. Lionel has added custom software that translates the DCC commands from the track into the equivalent Legacy command so the engine responds. That means that there are some CV's and DCC commands that will not work because it actuates a function not present in Legacy. There are not a lot of these. 
Just for the reading pleasure of those who like CV's here are two of the four pages from the Berkshire manual of how to set up the DCC system.


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## Ledfoot2018 (4 mo ago)

Tom , The light just went on up stairs, That was a lot of good info. Im trying to over think what Im wanting to do.


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## mopac (Feb 24, 2011)

Ledfoot, I know which switch you are asking about on the DCC system. On HO my system puts about 14.5 v to the track.
I have not measured the other 2 settings. I would think the system manual would tell you more. I would think neither would be over 17v. The bigger scales need more amps not volts. Pretty nifty I can use my DCC with Legacy engines.
I did not know that. Thanks Tom. You just cost me more money. LOL. This hobby never ends.

Tom, you can not use just a DCC booster by itself. It needs to be hooked up to the command station. Not sure what I was thinking when I bought the booster. 2 or 3 amps will run 2 or 3
sound engines. The booster is really for running over 6 or 8 engines at one time. At least on
HO. Must have been a Tim Allen thing.

Oh, I love messing with CVs on my HO engines. You can really fine tune them. I think the momentum is most fun to mess with. It works on accelerating and deaccelerating. Real trains do not stop suddenly. I can make my trains take 1/2 lap to more to stop after shutting off power.
Also I agree a "keep alive" is important. I saw a video of a guy picking up off the track a DCC engine with "keep Alive" and it ran another 4 or 5 seconds in his hand. pretty cool. Gets you past any power interruptions. I am thinking momentum would work alot like :keep alive:
Not exactly but similar.


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