# VL Big Boy 11436



## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

I am having an issue with this engine.

after 15-17 minutes all engine sounds stop then it will slow down and stop in a foot or two then the whistle will blow erratically. This is with only the main smoke stacks powered on the whistle/blowdown units are off.

if I leave all smoke units off it ran 20 minutes non stop.

the hand over and or touching handrails does nothing to help the headlight and marker lights are solid no flickering, yet all cab-2/cab-1 commands are fruitless.

anyone have an idea as to root cause of this issue?

thanks for any replies I have emailed Jon Z. awaiting a response.

for those that have this engine if you start having engine to cab-2 command responses inside cab look for handrails with a rubber boot at the end of each I had one that somehow became disconnected so only one handrail was acting as an antenna.
the rubber boot is molded and makes you think of black heat shrink tubing.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Why not just send it back. These have a warranty for two years, and Lionel will pick up the shipping both ways on Vision Line stuff.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

GRJ,

I thought only Vets received free shipping to lionel?

as to issue was just curious if anyone had similar issue. I should call lionel and get an RA #


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

From the manual...



> In the event service is required to this Vision Line locomotive, Lionel will, upon request of the original owner-purchaser, provide a prepaid UPS shipping label for the return of this product to the Lionel Service Department.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

I just sent my VL BB back to Lionel for an issue that I had with it. Lionel sent me the RA and also a print out for the shipping to NC. Lionel had to put a new board in for me and the covered the shipping back to me. Total turn around time was less then 2 weeks. Well Done LIONEL and thank you!!!


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

thanks for the information ironically the customer service rep said only for Vets paid both ways!!

and a twist the rep talked to a tech at lionel said never heard of this issue I am having so they asked me to send an email to them describing the issue. then they will forward to engineering department to see if a cure is available at my home or an RA # needs to be issued.

this is a new twist for lionel warranty as I normally get an RA# right then when I call in strange to say the least!! but did say the $ amount is big and prefer not to ship if at all possible.

I am waiting for an email from them and will keep updated here as I get feed back from lionel


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Shipping is ALWAYS a concern for those of us who live out west, I totally understand not wanting to ship it back it forth, especially for something that we know you can't just grab another one off the shelf.

Make sure you inform Customer Service this is a Vision Line product and the item number. They cover shipping both ways for the original owner when bought from an Authorized Lionel Dealer


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Hi EMPIRE BUILDER,
As LAIDOFSICK said, tell Lionel that it is a Vision Line BigBoy. They should send you a UPS sticker that you should print off. Good Luck. Please let us know what develops.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Update, received a email from Dean head of Lionel repair 
I need to call them Thursday so they can issue a RA#

He feels either a smoke motor drawing to much current or a short somewhere in smoke unit or a RCMC issue.
But he has never seen an issue like this before and wants to see it first hand himself.


Okay gunrunner what is a RCMC ?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The RCMC is the main Legacy board. Here's the one for the Big Boy.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

thank you gunrunnerjohn.

do you have the VL big boy? 
if so mid boiler can you hear a sound emitting from that area? 
mine does!! not sure what is causing it.
and is being emitted I assume from the speaker?

anyways I do appreciate the picture and telling me what RCMC is.

I have seen it when reworking the smoke units the lionel wicking works much better than the ones built with it! a smaller board in same area has 4 pins at the top that slide into it or another board by it I thought it was the rcl4 board .


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure what "sound" is being emitted on yours. The small board is the TMCC receiver, it is packaged with the RCMC, but you can get them as an independent sale item if necessary.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

The VLBB has a speaker in the boiler so yes, there should be sounds coming from it.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

I wasn't clear in sound description meaning.

all chuffs sounds etc are emitted correctly.

my issue there is a low sound almost like someone saying ah ah ah was just wondering if anyone elses engine had same low sound best heard with cab-2 volume at lowest setting


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

I made a phone video recording of the sound other than recorded ones hopefully I added this into post correctly.
try to get past the hissing sound and you will hear other sound in background! 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oXZI-Ko9sE


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

EMPIRE BUILDER,
Yes after it starts up the boiler part of the BB, I do get that sound, but only if there is no volume on.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I dont hear anything out of the ordinary. Just cranck that sucker up and let it run


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I hear it in the background, sort of a knocking sound and occasionally an AHH. It's obviously just part of the sound set.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

update 2-19-2016

received confirmation that the BB was delivered to lionel repair facility this morning.

now the wait to see when it starts its return fixed up and ready to do some revenue runs.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

update 3-1-2016

received a call from Lionel repair on 2-29-2016 saying due to my fixing the smoke units they felt I tampered with engine thus voiding warranty.
and that in fact the rcmc board had failed due to smoke fluid causing the board to fail! Ironic seeing it was dry under the boiler shell prior to shipping it to them on 2-15-2016 but ok will pay the fee.

thought on it all night called Lionel back today and said seeing I already paid for all parts in engine in original price I wanted all replaced boards returned to me and the Customer Rep said no Lionel keeps them returns to vendor who made it to see why it failed and repair it and then resell it.

I said no way if Lionel is voiding warranty out then all parts are MINE bought and paid for as originally built and sold to me.
I said you cannot have it both ways either you honor the warranty and keep the old board, or you return engine repaired and also the old board as I own all parts of that engine not Lionel.

am I mad you bet! What they think there going to clip us all twice for parts and a repaired part nice racket you have going there Lionel.

I will wait and see if upper service management contacts me on this issue and get this resolved.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

empire builder said:


> update 3-1-2016
> 
> received a call from Lionel repair on 2-29-2016 saying due to my fixing the smoke units they felt I tampered with engine thus voiding warranty.
> and that in fact the rcmc board had failed due to smoke fluid causing the board to fail! Ironic seeing it was dry under the boiler shell prior to shipping it to them on 2-15-2016 but ok will pay the fee.
> ...


I totally agree with you on the parts. If you pay for new parts, changes, etc. Everything taken out should be returned to customer. Common courtesy, and also its taking customers belongings without permission.
Cars, guns, appliances, etc. I've always had bad or replaced parts returned, or asked if I wanted them back. It seems as if Model Trains this is not the practice, and it should be if its not Warranty work.


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## HarborBelt1970 (Sep 24, 2015)

josef said:


> I totally agree with you on the parts. If you pay for new parts, changes, etc. Everything taken out should be returned to customer. Common courtesy, and also its taking customers belongings without permission.
> Cars, guns, appliances, etc. I've always had bad or replaced parts returned, or asked if I wanted them back. It seems as if Model Trains this is not the practice, and it should be if its not Warranty work.


Up to a point I agree as well, largely because I would not want a reconditioned part (which appears to be what the OP was told Lionel gets back from the original manufacturer) used in a repair of one of my engines, especially if it's a VL product.

On the other hand, what is the customer going to do with the defective original part? Sure, you might end up paying for it and the replacement part if the warranty is voided but might it be better for all concerned if the original was subject to analysis to determine the reason for failure?

I mention this because over the years I have seen Lionel issue revised versions of various parts to remedy defects in the originals. I mention "Acela" with trepidation but the original pantograph boards were redesigned and replaced because they were prone to failure. Of course there are also examples of bad batches of components, like fan motors and (at least in IMHO) sub-standard AC regulators.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Sure you own it but what will you do with the boards that don't work? Just look at it as a core charge, like a car battery or starter. You turn in the old non working junk, you just dont get any type of credit back with the boards. They will recycle them for sure though.

Lionel will void my warranty for putting a Kadee coupler on the tender. Completely BS if you ask me, as it has nothing to do with smoke unit or board "tampering". Their policy though so I either wait for the warranty to expire or take my chances. Most of the time I take my chances. If I can't fix it then I'll buy the parts or send it to someone to fix it.


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## josef (Jun 20, 2015)

Laidoffsick said:


> Sure you own it but what will you do with the boards that don't work? Just look at it as a core charge, like a car battery or starter. You turn in the old non working junk, you just dont get any type of credit back with the boards. They will recycle them for sure though.
> 
> 
> All my parts replaced if out of warranty, and replaced parts is my decision as to save or dispose of. If replaced under warranty, then its theirs. I've or had friends repair items. I'm paying for replacement, and I want parts replaced retuned. If a manufacturer wants to keep the part(s) to analyze, they should surely pay or discount the owners bill It maybe useless to the owner, but has value to the manufacturer to upgrade or change elements of the (in this case) board. Otherwise the manufacturer is getting a chance to analyze a problem at the expense of the owner.
> ...


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Lionel probably gets a credit from the PCB subcontractor for defective units, and are probably required to send them back to get that credit. But if you are paying out of pocket, they should simply toss the old one in the box.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Update received email from head of lionel repair I was told incorrectly about PCB policy.

The correct explanation is Lionel will return parts if customer asks for them but! 

Seems some folks took advantage of bad returned pcb and some repair shops to be replaced with a replacement board for free.

Unfortunately we honest folk get tarred n feathered with them.

So they now mark boards and disable them so they can identify them easily.
Am awaiting a clarification on the VL 2 year warranty as customer service said if another issue arises and I hadn't tampered with it it would be covered under warranty! 
You can understand my confusion how do you say no warranty on this current issue but yes this new issue we will repair under warranty. 
Either a warranty is void or it isn't?


I figure if this board has another issue and warranty is no more then if part needed is on old board I might find someone that can repair it thus not so much a paper weight but more as a donor.

Hope this helps clear some of this issue up for those on this forum.

I would post this on another forum but figure it would get the proverbial delete function. So nice to be able to post here with a true issue and results surrounding it's conclusions.

Thanks to web master(s) on this forum for being more open minded.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Actually, this is the third time I've heard of this board failing. I can confirm 2 of them...

Not that it has anything to do with your issue, just thought I'd mention it.


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

Ok so you're gonna get the bad board back. Now the question is: So what are you going to do with it?


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Laidoffsick,
Not seeing the board so not sure if possible but! I plan on if it fails again I might get lucky and the part that is bad I can use the good part from the returned board.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

86TA355SR, do you know what failed in other 2 boards?

My failure was heat related as it would run fine for 10-17 minutes and then stop in its tracks to me that's clearly a heat related issue and not smoke fluid as Lionel stated. Reason I discard there finding is after 5 minutes to cool off it would run another 10-17 minutes just fine.
I honestly believe they used the tampering to just get out of a honest failure of that board and a warranty repair?
As smoke fluid can't always be the main issue of failure as soon as enough heat is generated smoke fluid gets burned off it sat for a month non use and then ran no smoke fluid added all smoke features off! And seeing the board only close to blow down smoke unit and is mounted on the vertical well doesn't sound plausible to me.
A second guess I'll bet it's a pcb trace that once cool makes connection and heated breaks connection. As I find that an electronic part that failed would react this way?

But it is what it is I'm retired this was a last hurrah purchase hopefully it runs long time now otherwise will be yet another high dollar shelf queen.


As a side note the last email reply had a cc to Mike Reagan so I'm thinking he is like an overall head of all depts. 
I'm thinking they must either be running the heck out of testing wise or they ran into same issue after new board installed as no calls for a CC number today!


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

empire builder said:


> 86TA355SR, do you know what failed in other 2 boards?


No, I don't.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

received an e-mail from ups my big boy is scheduled for delivery tomorrow evening.

sure hope this rcmc lasts longer than the original boards not cheap.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

yes sir folks I am a bit peeved to say the least!

now in all fairness I did knowingly void the warranty by fixing smoke units so am not upset at paying to have some issues fixed at my expense but that is where it ends on my part!

I received the Big Boy late friday 3-11-16 so waited until this morning to open it up oh my!

I unwrapped the tender only to hear something hit the floor tender in hand still I see a small black screw lying on the floor hmmmm where does that belong as I had no tender issues with this so why are screws falling off it?

I look at tender to discover the rear coupler is loose and a screw missing hmmmmm. so I unwrapped the Big Boy and set it on the track as I want to reset the engines ID# back as it is in my cab-2 remote huh set program switch to program power up layout push eng then 40 then set hmmmm no whistle no light flash totally quiet strange behavior!

well prior to sending this back to lionel for repair for a totally different issue it would do same thing and at that time I discovered that the left handrail antenna wire had come loose from the handrail so I reattached it and all worked well after that!

so I said power all off took Big Boy set upside down on my foam engine repair cradle and upon looking at underside of rear cab area seen that the wire to the right handrail is waving at me unattached to the handrail.

now I have not tampered poked or pried on anything since its return from lionel repair in NC as I am not going to be accused of tampering with it this time this is all on them I took pictures as I discovered each issue and have sent an email inclusive of the pictures and what came right out from its foam cradle and shipping box.

I am way past peeved on this so will wait and see what there non tampering excuse is! 

hopefully first thing monday I will get a call/email telling me what they plan on doing to remedy these issues.

ironically the bill states that the engine was run for 4 hrs yet I received it in this condition so is lionel testing me to see if I tampered with it again?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

Wow...


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I can't even imagine how you feel about this whole fiasco.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Update received a very apologetic email from head of Lionel repair this morning.
They sent me a prepaid ship label and he assured me he personally would oversee the repairs to insure all is as it should be.
No charge for repairs either. I did get the old RCMC board back is it possible one of the stand alone Lionel repair folks could fix what's wrong with the bad one?


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

Update 3-31-2016

received the BB back from lionel late Wednesday unboxed it early thursday morning all was good I thought.

cab-2 remote or engine? seems cab-2 operates functions fine except for when I use aux-2 then the tender lights on/off and headlight on/off do not respond unless I use the old finger on handrail trick then it works! so if smoke on/low/medium/high and other functions work without fingers on handrails why is aux-2 having issues makes no sense to me.

is there a way to use a cab-1 to see if the issue is either engine or the legacy base- cab-2 at fault?

sent email to lionel so far no response, as I never received any email saying they received my BB or shipped back to me.

am thinking I hit a nerve on it and called them onto carpet about it! amazing I didn't get upset being told I tampered with it thus I voided the warranty guess when shoe is on other foot not so gracious!

any thoughts on this will be appreciated as to cure and no I do not intend to send back again 3 strikes your out!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That sounds like a signal strength issue, I wonder if the handrail are properly connected?


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## Laidoffsick (Sep 20, 2015)

I have that same issue with a few of my Legacy engines when I run them in Old Town San Diego... and I know for a fact it's a signal issue down there because I take my own Legacy Base and Cab 2 remote. I never tried touching the handrail trick though. Sometimes if I change the engine ID, everything will work normal, but not usually. 

As soon as I get them home, everything runs normal.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

might be awhile before I can fiddle with this as my sister broke her hip and is now in rehab so a juggling act of 2 households and visiting her i will update when I can. thanks for the replies and thoughts on what to look for.


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## empire builder (Apr 12, 2014)

good morning a very delayed update, after many returns to lionel the last time was for a loose wire from under front set of drivers it came back with an added wire undone, and the front drivers and the large steam tube would cause boiler to ride up and create a jerking movement when boiler swung out and back on a curve!

I decided after 4 trips I would fix the issues myself and I did seems the 2 wires were for the front set of drive wheels to the power roller and the ground as when I picked up rear of big boy all driver wheel movement stopped! I soldered them back into respective round eyelets problem solved. Marty Fitzhenry [sp] advised me to not allow front set of drivers to hang in midair as that might be the cause of the 2 wires pulling away from crimped round eyelet connectors.
the steam tube ahhh this one was a challenge as it appeared no way to disassemble it from steam cylinder assembly wrong!
I discovered the entire steam cylinder and cow catcher assembly does indeed come off from front drive wheel assembly from memory I believe 2 screws hold it to the driver assembly after it is separated the steam tube pivots on a small raised collar that even with the screw tightened that holds the steam tube to the steam cylinder assembly allows it to drop down to much, so I filed the raised area slightly until the screw would only allow a small drop now the boiler no longer catches onto the front set of driver assembly.

I have run the engine intermittently and so far my bad boy is running as it should but I have parked it on a secondary main so I can run some conventional post war engines and the baby polar express for the holidays.

and all including lionel are correct even after the RCMC board replaced the engine has a low sound emitting from it if parked closely to you if you lower the sounds some you can hear it I am curious as to why it emits this sound?

all in all I am finally pleased with it again but hopefully in 2017 I can try the vacuum hose trick on the blow down effect and see if like my Milwaukee s-3 it improves the smoke feature as that clear tubing seems to have an effect on smoke output ask gunrunnerjohn as he too replaced this clear tubing with positive results on a s-3 steam cylinder feature.

Happy Thanksgiving to all


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