# American Flyer track question



## OCJOER

Many years ago I had an American Flyer train se. I’m looking at getting another one. I’m seeing 2 or 3 types of tracks. The ones I recall having had 2 rails with 3 “ties”, one at each end and one in the middle. Now I’m seeing what is listed as “S” gauge track with ties all along each track and some have the rubber road bed. I don’t recall this type of track when I had my set. Was this type of track produced later ? 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

Welcome to the MTF!
Gilbert S gauge track has 4 black ties per section. The straights are 10" and the curves are 20" radius. The rubber roadbed was made by Gilbert for that track. It was also reproduced by R. Johnson. In the 1960's Gilbert also made a different track system called PikeMaster.
There are other track systems introduced over the years Some are GarGraves, American Models, Lionel S gauge FasTrack, American S Gauge, Fox Valley Models and SHS/MTH track. Go to the site portlines.com. It has an overview of these track systems with pictures. In the left hand vertical column it is the third item from the bottom.
Also, the website myflyertrains.net has all the original Gilbert catalogs plus much more to get you started.
Have fun looking!


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## flyernut

Welcome to the forum.. Original Gilbert track is readily available just about anywhere.. The rubber roadbed was a option you could purchase to make the track look more realistic, and to deaden the sound..What type of loco did you have when younger?? If I may, I would suggest a small steamer, much like a 302, to cut your teeth on. They are easy to fix, and parts are available. A 302 would have choo choo, head-light, and smoke.Add a few cars for less than $30 dollars..Ask any question you'd like, we're here to help....


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## TimmyD

Welcome to the forum, these guys are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful! I have also recently rekindled a love of these trains. I have only run the classic (late 40's -50's) American Flyer trains, and all on old Gilbert track directly on the floor. I have now obtained some of the rubber roadbed to see if I like it, but haven't set it up to assess yet. Several members here highly recommended it, especially since I just set up temporary layouts on the floor now and again. My impression is that the newer track systems are generally much more expensive than the old gilbert track, and their detail in my opinion lends itself more towards a permanent modeled layout. Likewise with the engines and cars. I love the old 'toy' trains, I like the patina that comes with years of play by kids pushing the limits, and I like my 2 yo daughter playing with me, even though it leads to crashes and derailments.  There are also incredibly detailed, absolutely beautiful new S-scale engines and cars being made, again, they seem to fall at a much higher price point, and I would not want to run them with my little girl or dogs around. The classics on classic track just fit my budget and lifestyle well. I do expect to like the roadbed upgrade for the Gilbert track, with the exception that my track storage space will more than double.
Looking forward to seeing pictures of whatever you decide you want to run!
TimmyD

I do like Flyernuts suggestion, my first set to cut my teeth on again was a 300AC and a few freight cars, a real entry level set. The 302 that Flyernut suggested also has smoke and choochoo, which definitely add a lot to the experience, and at virtually the same price point.


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> Welcome to the MTF!
> Gilbert S gauge track has 4 black ties per section. The straights are 10" and the curves are 20" radius. The rubber roadbed was made by Gilbert for that track. It was also reproduced by R. Johnson. In the 1960's Gilbert also made a different track system called PikeMaster.
> There are other track systems introduced over the years Some are GarGraves, American Models, Lionel S gauge FasTrack, American S Gauge, Fox Valley Models and SHS/MTH track. Go to the site portlines.com. It has an overview of these track systems with pictures. In the left hand vertical column it is the third item from the bottom.
> Also, the website myflyertrains.net has all the original Gilbert catalogs plus much more to get you started.
> Have fun looking!



Hi Tom,

Thanks for all the info and the links. I'll check them out as soon as I can. The Flyer track I recall having did have the 4 ties per track. I'm going to take a look at those other track styles and see if I can find the ones listed by this person on CL. I like the ones with ties all along the track, they look more realistic, but if they're the wrong gauge they're not going to work. The person listing them says they're "S" gauge but they look more like HO. 

Thanks again,
Joe


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## OCJOER

flyernut said:


> Welcome to the forum.. Original Gilbert track is readily available just about anywhere.. The rubber roadbed was a option you could purchase to make the track look more realistic, and to deaden the sound..What type of loco did you have when younger?? If I may, I would suggest a small steamer, much like a 302, to cut your teeth on. They are easy to fix, and parts are available. A 302 would have choo choo, head-light, and smoke.Add a few cars for less than $30 dollars..Ask any question you'd like, we're here to help....


Morning Flyer,

I really don't recall they set I had. It was, as the saying goes, a long time ago, in the early '50s, in a Galaxy far far away, well, Jersey. I remember my dad and I going to this store that sold all kinds of hobby type stuff. I believe it was in Rahway. It was a small set with 3 or 4 cars and a caboose. The engine smoked, had a headlight and whistle. We'd set it up under the tree every Christmas until we didn't. And then my parents decided to "loan" it to my cousin since we weren't setting it up at Christmas. And that was the last time I saw it. Ah well. 

Anyway, now that I'm supposed to be retired I wanted to have a train set up under the tree for the grandkids. I've found someone who has listed an American Flyer set with 4 engines and a dozen or so cars. I'm not sure if he has any track so I've been looking at ads for track and have found several, but the one that I mentioned in my reply to Tom doesn't look like "S" gauge. I've written to the poster and asked for measurements. 

I'll let you know what I end up with. For now it will just be set up under the tree each year. One of the other things I had as a kid was a slot car track. I'm currently setting one of those up in the garage. I may decide at some point to set a train set up in the garage too. Of course at that point mama will probably decide to set me up in the garage!


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## OCJOER

TimmyD said:


> Welcome to the forum, these guys are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful! I have also recently rekindled a love of these trains. I have only run the classic (late 40's -50's) American Flyer trains, and all on old Gilbert track directly on the floor. I have now obtained some of the rubber roadbed to see if I like it, but haven't set it up to assess yet. Several members here highly recommended it, especially since I just set up temporary layouts on the floor now and again. My impression is that the newer track systems are generally much more expensive than the old gilbert track, and their detail in my opinion lends itself more towards a permanent modeled layout. Likewise with the engines and cars. I love the old 'toy' trains, I like the patina that comes with years of play by kids pushing the limits, and I like my 2 yo daughter playing with me, even though it leads to crashes and derailments.  There are also incredibly detailed, absolutely beautiful new S-scale engines and cars being made, again, they seem to fall at a much higher price point, and I would not want to run them with my little girl or dogs around. The classics on classic track just fit my budget and lifestyle well. I do expect to like the roadbed upgrade for the Gilbert track, with the exception that my track storage space will more than double.
> Looking forward to seeing pictures of whatever you decide you want to run!
> TimmyD
> 
> I do like Flyernuts suggestion, my first set to cut my teeth on again was a 300AC and a few freight cars, a real entry level set. The 302 that Flyernut suggested also has smoke and choochoo, which definitely add a lot to the experience, and at virtually the same price point.


Hi Tim,

I'm probably going to go with the simpler set up at first like you. But I do have this tendency to overdo things, so I've been told. So there is a distinct possibility that I'll end up with something more detailed in the future. Although at my age I'd better get it started soon. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

Here are a couple of pictures. SHS sectional track with Gilbert trains, it can look a bit like HO, Gilbert track with added rubber roadbed.


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> Here are a couple of pictures. SHS sectional track with Gilbert trains, it can look a bit like HO, Gilbert track with added rubber roadbed.
> 
> View attachment 576354
> View attachment 576355


That's kind of what it looks like in the photos on the ad. I've asked the seller for measurements just to be sure. I've attached a photo of what he has listed.







The seller who has the trains listed that I'm going to see today does not have any track.

Joe


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## AmFlyer

That is Gilbert PikeMaster track from the 1960's. I would only buy a few pieces as a collectable curiosity. Do not plan on using this track. It is a small radius that many Gilbert items will not run on and it is poorly made.


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## AmFlyer

Here is a picture I took yesterday for another reason. The SW1 is sitting on a 20”R SHS turnout (same as the standard Gilbert track), below it is 15”R PikeMaster track. That little SW1 would not run on the PikeMaster curves.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> That's kind of what it looks like in the photos on the ad. I've asked the seller for measurements just to be sure. I've attached a photo of what he has listed.
> View attachment 576356
> The seller who has the trains listed that I'm going to see today does not have any track.
> 
> Joe


Throw that stuff out buddy, there's better track out there.


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## AmFlyerFan

Speaking of track. I have a couple of the short AF track; straight and curved. I need a couple more of each. What would be the best way to shorten regular pieces? A Dremel tool to cut/chop the ends? I've got plenty of track and don't like the condition, cost to buy them like that. Thanx.


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## AmFlyer

Quickest way is a Dremel with a cut-off disk. Old school and takes longer is a hacksaw.


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## AmFlyerFan

Thanx for the quick reply. I'll use my cutoff disk. Hack saws are for hand cuffs.


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> That is Gilbert PikeMaster track from the 1960's. I would only buy a few pieces as a collectable curiosity. Do not plan on using this track. It is a small radius that many Gilbert items will not run on and it is poorly made.


Thanks for the info an warning. I'll stick with the regular American Flyer for now. It will probably just be a circle going around the Christmas tree for next year anyway. I was thinking about building a base out of 3/4" MDF for the track and building a box in the middle to hold the tree stand so that the tree is higher off the ground. Right now the bottom branches just about touch the floor. And yes, it's a fake tree. I used to cut my own down when I lived in Jersey but out here in Sunny Southern California it will cost a Benjamin or more for a decent tree, even at the Home Depot. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

I always put my tree on an elevated stand but that does not mean the track cannot be on the floor if desired. Here are some simple past layouts I have done under the tree. All have the tree on an elevated base.


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## AmFlyer

If you are like me and sometimes do not know when to stop the floor layout under the tree can grow to this.


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> I always put my tree on an elevated stand but that does not mean the track cannot be on the floor if desired. Here are some simple past layouts I have done under the tree. All have the tree on an elevated base.
> 
> View attachment 576387
> View attachment 576388
> View attachment 576389


That's kind of what I had in mind. 

I picked these up this afternoon. A couple sets of wheels are missing and they definitely need cleaning and some restoration but it was a good deal. Now I just need some track and a transformer. 

Joe


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## AFGP9

OCJOER, I have another choice for you if you are going to use the standard Gibert track. I too chose the Gilbert track and switches. I added extra ties and ballasted the track using Woodland Scenics's large pebble ballast in different colors mixed together so as to create a real world look to the ballast. The ballast is held in place with Elmers thinned glue laying on construction grade Styrofoam so no nails were used. The track on my layout has been in place for 8 years. It will dry solid. It has never moved so the track has stayed put. I could have gone the SNS or any of the other track suppliers but wanted to stay with the Gilbert track since I was after a traditional Gilbert look to everything. Save yourself many headaches and ditch the PikeMaster track. Not worth the effort. 

Kenny


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## AmFlyer

The 21160 Atlantics do not have a reverse unit but do have a slide switch in the engine cab to set the direction. Both appear to need wiring repair, one is missing the 2 pin connector. The 293's sould run great with smoke when cleaned up. Also nice to have some uncouplers. When you buy the track get some 690 track terminals as well for power.


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> The 21160 Atlantics do not have a reverse unit but do have a slide switch in the engine cab to set the direction. Both appear to need wiring repair, one is pissing the 2 pin connector. The 293's sould run great with smoke when cleaned up. Also nice to have some uncouplers. When you buy the track get some 690 track terminals as well for power.


Hi Tom,

I'm probably going to take the engines apart and give them a good cleaning and lubrication along with fixing all the wiring issues. I did see the switch on the 2 21160 engines. Was there some reason they were built like that and can they be converted so they can reverse? Also a couple of the cars are missing a pair of wheels. Is there a source for those? I also noticed that on a few of the cars the couplings are just plastic units that can not uncouple. Are these later (cheaper) cars and can I buy wheels with the couplers on them? 

I think I've located someone with a bunch of track and transformers out here. I'm supposed to hear from him tomorrow. Hopefully he has some other accessories too. I've already started plans for next years Christmas tree/track combo. 

Joe


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## OCJOER

AFGP9 said:


> OCJOER, I have another choice for you if you are going to use the standard Gibert track. I too chose the Gilbert track and switches. I added extra ties and ballasted the track using Woodland Scenics's large pebble ballast in different colors mixed together so as to create a real world look to the ballast. The ballast is held in place with Elmers thinned glue laying on construction grade Styrofoam so no nails were used. The track on my layout has been in place for 8 years. It will dry solid. It has never moved so the track has stayed put. I could have gone the SNS or any of the other track suppliers but wanted to stay with the Gilbert track since I was after a traditional Gilbert look to everything. Save yourself many headaches and ditch the PikeMaster track. Not worth the effort.
> 
> Kenny


Hi Kenny,

As I noted I'm probably just going to set up a simple track for around the Christmas tree this year. I've located someone near me who has "a bunch" of track and a transformer that I'm going to look at tomorrow. 

I like the idea of adding extra AF ties to the track sections. Is there a source for those or did you just take them from other track? 

I gather from what every one has said that the Pike Master track is not the way to go. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

Prior to adding a reverse unit make sure the Atlantics run well and that you are satisfied with no smoke or choo choo. A 4 position reverse unit can be added in the tender and then hard wired to the engine, but it takes some work and money. I suggest since you have all KC equipment you ask flyernut if he has a 303 he will part with. Any engine from him will run perfect and it will likely be the cheaper path.
I suspect flyernut may have also some spare wheel sets. The two PRR gondolas have solid KC's. You can get some regular operating KC trucks and install them. You will need the correct rivets and a rivet forming tool that PortLines sells to install new rivets.
There used to be a source of black rubber ties that slid under the rails of the Gilbert track. I cannot recall who made those and if they are still in business. Hopefully someone else here will know. The track looked good with those ties.


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## AmFlyer

The 21160 engines were uncataloged and made from 11958 to 1960. The objective was to make them as cheap as possible for uncataloged sets to hold down the set price. These cheap sets were frequently used a give-aways by stores or manufacturers for purchasing their products.


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## flyernut

What do you need?? I have lots of stuff here to help you out..You will need 12 sections of original Gilbert track to make a simple circle, nice curve track,(Gilbert), will set you back around $10, maybe even cheaper.. You can get rubber roadbed for approx $1-2 dollars a curved section for another $10-12 dollars.So for a nice circle with very good track and rubber roadbed you're talking $20 bucks., a good investment.Next you'll need a "lock-on", a clip that enables the power to get to the track, another buck..As I said before, a 302 will be a great little engine for you to start out with, it has all the options, choo choo, smoke, and a head-light.. These are wonderful engines and very inexpensive. A novice can work on these with a little help. And if I may add, any 3 digit loco, be it a Atlantic, Pacific, K-5, or Northern, I will donate my services to you for that added help, if you'd like, no charge of course, just pay the shipping.. I do, however, stay away from those 5-digit Atlantics as they can be very finicky, and I have no patience for them. I have approx 40 locos not including many diesels, but only 1 5-digit Atlantic, for good reason,lol.. For a transformer, there's MANY out there, AF will run on AC or DC, but the engines marked DC will only run on DC! Many of us here use Lionel ZW's, they can be pricey....I would suggest a #8b transformer, made by AF.. They would be a great addition for your circle.. And if I may add one more thing, when using a flat piece of wood for your track, can I suggest adding a perimeter of 2x2 under the wood, and in the middle for strength, and to keep the board from warping.Track, road bed, lock-on, a 302 with 3 cars, and a transformer, will probably set you back $100 dollars...There's a bunch of wonderful people here that will help you as much as possible, just ask my friend..I hope I helped.


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## flyernut

AmFlyer said:


> Prior to adding a reverse unit make sure the Atlantics run well and that you are satisfied with no smoke or choo choo. A 4 position reverse unit can be added in the tender and then hard wired to the engine, but it takes some work and money. I suggest since you have all KC equipment you ask flyernut if he has a 303 he will part with. Any engine from him will run perfect and it will likely be the cheaper path.
> I suspect flyernut may have also some spare wheel sets. The two PRR gondolas have solid KC's. You can get some regular operating KC trucks and install them. You will need the correct rivets and a rivet forming tool that PortLines sells to install new rivets.
> There used to be a source of black rubber ties that slid under the rails of the Gilbert track. I cannot recall who made those and if they are still in business. Hopefully someone else here will know. The track looked good with those ties.


I have spare wheels, and in fact, I have a 307 that I recently serviced, BUT..that does not have smoke or choo choo only head-light.a very basic entry level engine, you can get bored with it very quickly,lol!!.


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> Prior to adding a reverse unit make sure the Atlantics run well and that you are satisfied with no smoke or choo choo. A 4 position reverse unit can be added in the tender and then hard wired to the engine, but it takes some work and money. I suggest since you have all KC equipment you ask flyernut if he has a 303 he will part with. Any engine from him will run perfect and it will likely be the cheaper path.
> I suspect flyernut may have also some spare wheel sets. The two PRR gondolas have solid KC's. You can get some regular operating KC trucks and install them. You will need the correct rivets and a rivet forming tool that PortLines sells to install new rivets.
> There used to be a source of black rubber ties that slid under the rails of the Gilbert track. I cannot recall who made those and if they are still in business. Hopefully someone else here will know. The track looked good with those ties.


I'll probably just leave the Atlantics the way they are, other than cleaning and fixing the wires.

It looks like the Shell tanker and the red caboose also have the solid couplers. I went to the PortLines site and looked at their parts listing for trucks but there are no photos so I'm not sure which ones to order. I may give them a call and ask about them and the rivets. I doubt either of my rivet tool will be the right ones. 

I'll check with Flyernut on the other parts. 

Joe


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## OCJOER

flyernut said:


> What do you need?? I have lots of stuff here to help you out..You will need 12 sections of original Gilbert track to make a simple circle, nice curve track,(Gilbert), will set you back around $10, maybe even cheaper.. You can get rubber roadbed for approx $1-2 dollars a curved section for another $10-12 dollars.So for a nice circle with very good track and rubber roadbed you're talking $20 bucks., a good investment.Next you'll need a "lock-on", a clip that enables the power to get to the track, another buck..As I said before, a 302 will be a great little engine for you to start out with, it has all the options, choo choo, smoke, and a head-light.. These are wonderful engines and very inexpensive. A novice can work on these with a little help. And if I may add, any 3 digit loco, be it a Atlantic, Pacific, K-5, or Northern, I will donate my services to you for that added help, if you'd like, no charge of course, just pay the shipping.. I do, however, stay away from those 5-digit Atlantics as they can be very finicky, and I have no patience for them. I have approx 40 locos not including many diesels, but only 1 5-digit Atlantic, for good reason,lol.. For a transformer, there's MANY out there, AF will run on AC or DC, but the engines marked DC will only run on DC! Many of us here use Lionel ZW's, they can be pricey....I would suggest a #8b transformer, made by AF.. They would be a great addition for your circle.. And if I may add one more thing, when using a flat piece of wood for your track, can I suggest adding a perimeter of 2x2 under the wood, and in the middle for strength, and to keep the board from warping.Track, road bed, lock-on, a 302 with 3 cars, and a transformer, will probably set you back $100 dollars...There's a bunch of wonderful people here that will help you as much as possible, just ask my friend..I hope I helped.


Hi Flyer,

I've located track, transformers and some other accessories out here that I'm going to look at tomorrow. I'll let you know after that. The only reason I have the 2 Atlantics is they came in the box of cars. Like I said I'm probably going to clean and lube everything up and see what I have. I'm not sure what model transformers this guy has but I'll know tomorrow. Once I start taking them apart I'll probably be contacting you for help on the rebuild. Thank you for offering.

Everyone here has been great and very helpful. I'm probably going to build a 4' x 4' base for the track under the tree and go from there. I have a bunch of MDF so I'll probably just double it up for a solid base. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

I think I would just live with the solid couplers and not try to uncouple the train at that point. One of flyernuts 302's with a KC in place of the link would serve you well.


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## OCJOER

I finally got around to picking up the track, switches and transformers. I got 44 pieces of straight, 24 curved, several half pieces, 2 remote switches, a cross track and 3 transformers. I think I have enough to get started. The track seems to be pretty clean. A couple pieces are missing one of the connecting pins.

I will leave the solid couplers as they are for now. Restoring the engines will be task #1.


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## AmFlyer

The track looks great. I see you got at least one 690 track clip. Likely a few more will be necessary. The turnouts with the OB look almost unused. The control box has no distortion from the bulb heat.
The 22030 is a 5 digit version of the plastic case 4B. It is a good transformer. The other two can power some accessories or track switches, I would not use them to run the trains.


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## OCJOER

Hi Tom,

Does the power to the tracks lessen the larger you make the setup, kind of like slot car tracks? Is that why I'd need additional track clips? 

According to the prior owner, he just had the turnouts restored. They look almost new. 

On the 2 smaller transformers would I just hook the switches or other accessory up to the 16v terminal? 

I'm looking forward to Christmas more than usual this year. I usually decorate the house quite a bit (mama says I tend to go overboard), but the track set up will definitely add a lot. I'm thinking about doing a winter/snow scenery for the track set up.

Joe


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## AmFlyer

The more track sections used in a layout the greater the voltage drop to the furthest section from the track clip. If the track pins are all clean and tight (they are responsible for most of the voltage drop) I find one clip is good for a 5'x10' oval, maybe a little more. What I was thinking was that you would have at least two ovals of track to run two trains at the same time, each powered by a separate transformer.
You have 60' of track. If it is made into one large oval (like the picture I posted of the SHS track on the wood floor in our San Diego place) there will be a slowdown at the furthest point from the connection. I did not have a problem with that 80' loop of track because I was running Legacy control with only Legacy equipped engines. Legacy engines have speed control so a 2V or 3V drop will not change the engine speed.
If the turnouts were freshly serviced I would try the variable post set to about 12V or 13V. The switches should still snap sharply and there will be far less heat from the bulbs.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> I finally got around to picking up the track, switches and transformers. I got 44 pieces of straight, 24 curved, several half pieces, 2 remote switches, a cross track and 3 transformers. I think I have enough to get started. The track seems to be pretty clean. A couple pieces are missing one of the connecting pins.
> 
> I will leave the solid couplers as they are for now. Restoring the engines will be task #1.
> View attachment 576696
> View attachment 576697
> View attachment 576698


I remember those 2 smaller transformers, I had one in my set Dad bought in 1957, the flying freighter, a 355 Baldwin with 3 cars.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> I finally got around to picking up the track, switches and transformers. I got 44 pieces of straight, 24 curved, several half pieces, 2 remote switches, a cross track and 3 transformers. I think I have enough to get started. The track seems to be pretty clean. A couple pieces are missing one of the connecting pins.
> 
> I will leave the solid couplers as they are for now. Restoring the engines will be task #1.
> View attachment 576696
> View attachment 576697
> View attachment 576698


Nice, and the turn-outs are a "true" pair..


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## AmFlyerFan

That was my intro into AF, X-mas 1957. It was stored away for many years in not the best conditions.
I've added much more over time. 
My Baldwin 355 never could pull many cars. I know now it was a cheaply made unit.
I put a can motor & Dallee reversing unit it, what a difference! I also added a 2 ozs. of weight under the shell in the back. It's got plenty of traction now until the track gets dirty.


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## AmFlyer

AmFlyerFan, how is the low speed performance of the Baldwin after the can motor conversion?


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## AmFlyerFan

"Like a scalded cat". A couple of times I thought it might go off the rails due to speed. It hasn't, but it is close without any cars. With my AF 15B transformer it goes to about 1/3 of top end, when it has power. So, low end isn't really adjustable but I can live with that. Last week I hitched up 10 cars & caboose. It pulled that fine until the wheels started slipping. (My dirty track response). It could never do that before.


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## AmFlyer

Thanks. Hope it serves you and the layout well.


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## AmFlyerFan

Because it was my first train I'm glad I got it running. It's not the best (everyone knows that), but I'm real happy with the results I'd recommend a Can and a Dallee for a Baldwin 355.


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## flyernut

AmFlyerFan said:


> "Like a scalded cat". A couple of times I thought it might go off the rails due to speed. It hasn't, but it is close without any cars. With my AF 15B transformer it goes to about 1/3 of top end, when it has power. So, low end isn't really adjustable but I can live with that. Last week I hitched up 10 cars & caboose. It pulled that fine until the wheels started slipping. (My dirty track response). It could never do that before.


I remember when my 355 was new, I would purposely run it as fast as it could go to see it fly off the tracks. I neveer really did like that Baldwin, I loved my steamers though.


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## AmFlyerFan

Here's a pic of my Steamers & Baldwin 355. Nothing special except to me.
I discovered this site a couple of winters ago while recovering from shoulder surgery. All the tips, info, tricks ignited another 'addiction' I'm afraid. They all smoke and run well; even the 307 that I added a smokebox to.


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## AmFlyer

They all look like new in that picture!


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## AmFlyerFan

They cleaned up well with everything I learned here. One of the 21085's (from an uncle's set 40 yrs ago), still has a sticky E unit. Frustrating. I've gotten better at replacing wicks, armatures, etc. I really would like to add a 'Northern' to the roundhouse. Some day.


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## mopac

AmFlyerFan, nice looking locos. Watch getting close to those northerns. They are
addictive. I have 6 of them. I do not even want to think of the money for them. At
times I think it was worth it. Other times I think what an idiot.


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## AmFlyer

No one needs 6 Northerns, however quite a few people want at least six of them.


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## AmFlyerFan

6 of them? You hoarders make it tough on the rest of us. Which is your favorite?
Do you hoard toilet paper too? lol.


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## flyernut

I have 5 Northerns with their respective cars.. The most I paid for 1 was the first one I bought, a K335, and it was $375.. The cheapest I paid was free, just did some labor in exchange..The next was $170 for the entire set, plus shipping, with all the right cars, all in gorgeous condition. That was a 336, big motor. My other 336 was $150 for a 336, big motor, just 2 months ago.I also have several 332's.. Looks like even I don't know how many Northerns I have,lol.


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## mopac

Tom, I agree nobody needs 6. But everybody should get one of them. I did not get any deals like
flyernut got. All 6 of mine are nice . Good paint, strong cab numbers, little paint loss. Like flyernut,
my most expensive was my first, a 336 large motor for 425.00. The rest are 300.00 to 370. I would
suggest to pay a little more and get a nice one. I have seen them for around 200.00 but they need
a paint job to be nice.


----------



## AmFlyerFan

I want one in nice or better condition, so you know what that means.I watch for them on Ebay and other places. I just haven't pulled the trigger yet. My local resources are very minimal. There is a guy that sells on Ebay I met at a local train show. He'll waive the excessive shipping and is close enough that it's an easy drive to meet him. I'd trust him.
I've been lucky to pick some AF stuff up at garage sales. Nothing like being able to physically examine something and not rely on descriptions.


----------



## AmFlyer

I only have four. Two are 1951 332AC's for layout running. One is in E condition and now has an electronic reverse unit, the other is closer to LN. I have a 335 and a 336, both in LN condition that are part of boxed sets in my collection. I posted pictures of these sets here about two years ago.


----------



## AmFlyerFan

Those pix make me drool for one.
That electronic reversing unit is I assume a Dallee? Are there other reversing units out there?


----------



## AmFlyer

I put the electronic unit in about 20 years ago. I do not recall the brand but most likely a Dallee. I liked the silence and the fact that the engine now always started in forward, the same as the American Models engines did.


----------



## AmFlyerFan

I didn't realize those unit's have been around that long. My experience with them has been good so I wouldn't hesitate to do another.
Good day all.


----------



## flyernut

AmFlyerFan said:


> I want one in nice or better condition, so you know what that means.I watch for them on Ebay and other places. I just haven't pulled the trigger yet. My local resources are very minimal. There is a guy that sells on Ebay I met at a local train show. He'll waive the excessive shipping and is close enough that it's an easy drive to meet him. I'd trust him.
> I've been lucky to pick some AF stuff up at garage sales. Nothing like being able to physically examine something and not rely on descriptions.


I saw a nice 332 on ebay for $2.29 buy it now.. I almost popped on it for a friend.


----------



## mopac

All of mine are from ebay. Before I spend that kind of money I study the pics closely.
So far I have not been sorry for buyng. If the pics are not good or not of what you want to see
do a Texas on it, El Paso.


----------



## AFGP9

OCJOER said:


> Hi Kenny,
> 
> As I noted I'm probably just going to set up a simple track for around the Christmas tree this year. I've located someone near me who has "a bunch" of track and a transformer that I'm going to look at tomorrow.
> 
> I like the idea of adding extra AF ties to the track sections. Is there a source for those or did you just take them from other track?
> 
> I gather from what every one has said that the Pike Master track is not the way to go.
> 
> Joe


For the extra track ties I got mine from S&S Plastics. These look like wood but are a soft rubber material. Once buried in ballast you don't notice them. They blend in well with the original factory ties. Sorry I don't have the address handy.. Also Port Lines used to have them as well. Earlier I saw a seller on eBay had 300 stained wooden ones. So take your pick. 

Kenny


----------



## AmFlyer

Kenny, that is the source of the rubber ties I was trying to remember!


----------



## AFGP9

AmFlyerFan I have 42 engines but none are Northerns. I have never had the desire to own one but the more I see them the more I think I need to get one I guess. I am a Hudson fan. There are two I don't have and are not cheap. Before I spring for a Northern I need to complete my Hudson collection. Nothing against Northerns mind you.

Kenny


----------



## AFGP9

AmFlyer said:


> Kenny, that is the source of the rubber ties I was trying to remember!


Glad I could help you memory! lol I just wish I could remember where the invoice is so I can list the contact information. Shouldn't be hard to find with Google. 

Kenny


----------



## AmFlyerFan

I too like the Hudson's and have been watching them along with Northern's. I don't have either yet but my eyes are open.


----------



## AmFlyerFan

AmFlyerFan said:


> I too like the Hudson's and have been watching them along with Northern's. I don't have either yet but my eyes are open.


I forgot to ask how many engines in the Hudson group?


----------



## mopac

According to the chart I posted there are 8 different Hudsons. I have 4 Hudsons but only
2 different ones. 2 322s and 2 326s. The more common ones. Someday I am going to sell
my doubles. Hudsons and Northerns, Pacifics, and Atlantics. Might be tough to sell any,
have not sold any of my engines. They all become part of the family. I sure wish Gilbert
had made production numbers public.

Here are the Hudsons

320 - no smoke or choo choo - link
321 - link coupler
322 - link
322AC - link
324AC - link
325AC - link
K325 - knuckle
326 - knuckle


----------



## AmFlyer

The list of eight engines for purposes of counting variations leaves many variations uncounted. As a former, and now reformed, variation collector I offer this list of Hudsons.

320- 1946 thin shank coupler, New York Central on tender, round head rivets, Brass buttons under chassis, no smoke/choo choo
320- 1947 thick shank coupler, American Flyer Lines on tender, hex head rivets, no brass buttons, no smoke/choo choo.
321- 1946 thin shank coupler, New York Central on tender, round head rivets, brass buttons under chassis, no smoke/choo choo
321- 1946 same as above but with smoke and choo choo in tender
321- 1947 thick shank coupler, American Flyer Lines on tender, hex head rivets, no brass buttons
322- 1946 thin shank coupler, New York Central in silver on tender, round head rivets, brass buttons under chassis, smoke/choo choo in tender
322- 1947 thick shank coupler, American Flyer Lines in silver on tender, hex head rivets, no brass buttons, smoke/choo choo in tender
322- 1948 Brass coupler weight, American Flyer Lines in white on tender, smoke/choo choo in boiler.
322AC- 1949 black coupler weight, American Flyer Lines on tender, thick flag holders on pilot, one rivet holding boiler front
322AC- 1950, 1951 black coupler weight, American Flyer on tender, thin flag holders on pilot, brass spring holding boiler front
324AC- 1950
325AC- 1951
K325- 1952
326- 1953 to 1957
21129- 1958 plastic tender, split or one piece chassis, white or aluminum tires
21130- 1959, 1960 plastic tender, black plastic drive wheels with white painted or black tires; black plastic wheels with aluminum tires

For hard core variation collectors there are many secondary variations involving lettering style, thick vs thin cab number stampings, style of chassis (hole vs no hole), type of wiring and type of motor.


----------



## mopac

If someone wants to gather all those variations, have at it.
I guess I am not a hard core variation collector. I will stick to cab numbers.
Glad you got that illness cured. that could cause some serious issues.


----------



## AmFlyerFan

Thanx for the history lesson. Nice to have all that info close at hand.


----------



## AmFlyer

Mopac, It was a good thing I did. The most surprising omission from the list you found are the two 5 digit Hudsons. I have a 21130 and it is a nice engine. Even though it has a two position reverse unit, with the sliding pickup shoes I never had it reverse while running.


----------



## mopac

Tom, I may have missed the 5 digit Hudsons. I will have to refer to it again to see if the 5 digit are on there. At least 1 on there. guess I was in a 3 digit mode.


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## AmFlyer

Good point. I just looked at the master list you provided and the 21129 and 21130 are on it. I did not double check earlier today.


----------



## OCJOER

I guess the original discussion has morphed into other topics.

I've taken apart, rewired, cleaned and lubricated one of the Atlantic engines. From what I've been reading, none of them had headlights or smoked. When I disassembled this one I found a tab right behind the headlight area with what looks to be a broken wire coming from it, (see photo). Anyone know if any of these had working headlights? And if so where does the other wire go?

Now it works and runs.









Joe


----------



## Sagas

Below are two wiring diagrams for that series of Atlantics. The 21100 is somewhat unclear to me since I don't own one however it does show the bulb and power for it taken from the smoke box but you might be able to use it as a guide to wire one in. I don't have an exploded parts diagram for them but maybe someone else here will. Possibly a previous owner was trying to put one in.


----------



## OCJOER

I'm not sure if those drops of solder around the front of the engine are just drops of solder (there were others in other parts of the engine) or if one is a connection point for the light. I'm going to take it apart again and see what I can find out.


----------



## mopac

Does your engine have a smoke unit? If so run 2 wires to a light socket
from the smoke unit. If no smoke unit, run wires from motor brush clips.


----------



## AmFlyer

The 21160 was made in 1960, it did not have a headlight. Someone may have added one, it would not be difficult. The similar 21100 from 1957 did have a headlight. There were a lot of internal differences between these two engines. For example, the 21160 has a split chassis that greatly simplified the manufacturing and assembly process, it was cheaper to make. Neither of these had a smoke unit.


----------



## OCJOER

Hi Tom,

This is what is on the inside of the engine. Best I can tell is is stamped Nov 1958. I'm not sure what that pressed in number (PA-11D947) indicates. But the outside is clearly 21160. I'm not sure what you mean by a "split chassis".

Assuming it has a light where would the other wire be connected? There's only the one tab sticking out in the inside of the engine. Those other solder drops were just that, drops.

Joe


----------



## AmFlyer

Not sure what to say. With the date stamp of 1958 the engine should be a 21100 with a light. The light just connects across the two incoming wires from the plug as the wiring diagram for the 21100 shows.
A split chassis has separate top and bottom halves screwed together. It allows removing the wheels and axles as an assembly without pulling the wheels from the axles.
When I get home on Monday I will will look at some additional material I have and see if there are any other reports of a 21160 with a 1958 shell.


----------



## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> Not sure what to say. With the date stamp of 1958 the engine should be a 21100 with a light. The light just connects across the two incoming wires from the plug as the wiring diagram for the 21100 shows.
> A split chassis has separate top and bottom halves screwed together. It allows removing the wheels and axles as an assembly without pulling the wheels from the axles.
> When I get home on Monday I will will look at some additional material I have and see if there are any other reports of a 21160 with a 1958 shell.


The chassis on this one does come out as a unit. There is a screw in the bottom that allows the bottom to come off to lubricate the gears. 
I guess I’m not seeing 2 posts to connect the 2 wires to, just the one in the photo.
Joe


----------



## mopac

2 Wires from the tender, right? Just solder 2 wires from headlight to where the 2
wires from tender go to. The 2 wires from the tender are your power wires.. Get 
your headlight power from them. Please post a pic of the bottom of chassis. Then
we can tell you if you have a 2 piece chassis. It does not sound like you do.


----------



## Sagas

I came across another diagram for the 21100 which is less confusing. It clearly shows the straight wiring for a light and definitely no smoke box nor is one in the parts listing I have. You can probably use this then to add a light. The other image was quite unclear. The attached parts list I have states a split chassis for 21160 but, as mentioned, there could be variations.


----------



## AmFlyer

Based on the date stamp your engine was made prior to the introduction of the split chassis.


----------



## OCJOER

The problem I'm having is I only see a single connection sticking out into the inside of the engine body. I'll try and take a better photo and post it tomorrow. The photo I posted above shows the only connection tab. Those solder drops were just drops that I knocked off.

I'll post a photo of the chassis too. 

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

MoPac & Sagas,








































Ok, so I have no life and I'm posting the photos now, lol. The one of the inside of the engine housing shows the tab I'm calling the connection to the light. I don't see a second connection. Could there be another connection post under the one that is in the photo?

There are also a few shots of the chassis. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## OCJOER

This morning I decided to see how the light was mounted to the engine housing so I got a small screwdriver and pushed from the inside. Out came a little piece of Lucite, or whatever clear plastic they used back in '58. So there is no light on this engine. Mea Culpa. 

While taking it all apart I managed to let one of the brush springs pop out and onto either my workbench or floor. Thus far I have not been able to find it. Should I need a new one is there a substitute? I tried a ball point pen spring but the ones I have are too fat. 

Joe


----------



## Mikeh49

Here's a parts diagram for your engine. It may take some interpreting The clear plastic you removed is the headlight lens. If you had a headlight, there would be a screw base bulb in a socket at the front of the boiler, parts 6,7 and 8. There might be a hole in the front of your shell for the screw that holds the socket. (I can't remember the actual arrangement of this.)


----------



## AmFlyer

The exploded diagram above does list a 21160 however it is for an engine with a smoke unit which the 21160 does not have. The 21160 does not have a headlight, just a lucite lens which our OP has now confirmed on disassembly. The 21160 also has a manual slide reversing switch in the cab which this one has. It is plainly visible behind the motor in the pictures.The one pictured here is a 1958 version with a one piece chassis, 1959 and 1960 would have the two piece chassis.
The brush spring is a standard Gilbert design for any steam engine motor with shoulder style brushes. Available from most any S gauge vendor.


----------



## OCJOER

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the diagram. I guess if I really want a headlight I'll have to find those parts. Do you have a corresponding list of the parts by number? From what I'm seeing the brushes are PA9603A and the springs are PA10757. 
Joe


----------



## Mikeh49

I could not find a parts list with part numbers; it would be like the one Sagas posted above, but would include the headlight bracket. The bracket is common, I expect, to the plastic steamers, Atlantic or Pacific, 303, 383 etc. My 303 has a hole for the bracket screw centered and recessed in the front of the shell; it should be pretty obvious if you have it. Then, there needs to be room for the light in front of the weight riveted to your chassis. Any of the usual parts sources should be able to ID or provide the bracket and the bulb.

Here's one on ebay: #6 S AMERICAN FLYER 307 STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - HEADLIGHT BRACKET, BULB & SCREW | eBay


----------



## AmFlyer

My apologies, I am off on a driving holiday, be back late tomorrow. The parts list is in the Factory Service Manual at myflyertrains.net.


----------



## Tyrell54

OCJOER said:


> Hi Mike,
> Thank you for the diagram. I guess if I really want a headlight I'll have to find those parts. Do you have a corresponding list of the parts by number? From what I'm seeing the brushes are PA9603A and the springs are PA10757.
> Joe


I believe this is the parts list for the diagram


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Hi Mike,
> Thank you for the diagram. I guess if I really want a headlight I'll have to find those parts. Do you have a corresponding list of the parts by number? From what I'm seeing the brushes are PA9603A and the springs are PA10757.
> Joe


You are correct in those part #'s...PA10757 is .25 cents apiece....PA9603-A is .75 cents apiece from Jeff Kane...You can buy both parts in bulk making it cheaper yet.


----------



## mopac

You are not the first to let a spring get away. There are no substitutes for the springs. Order a few of them and some brushes. The tension of the springs are critical.


----------



## OCJOER

Hi Mike,
Since I've got the 4 engines I might as well get a set for each of them. Is Jeff a member here? 

Joe


----------



## AmFlyer

He is at www.ttender.com. His phone number is there as well. If you will be continuing to acquire Gilbert items, think about ordering couplers, pins, screws and light bulbs as well.


----------



## Mikeh49

Jeff Kane is the Train Tender: Welcome to The Train Tender - Internet Reference

I have not purchased from him, but folks here are very positive and he accepts calls to answer questions. If you're talking about brushes, there are 2 common types for the steamers: very early, like late 40's and then later, 50's and above. Then another kind for the latest with the cylindrical rather than flat commutator. Diesels are also different. Also, the springs for the early and late steamers are different as well. Flyernut, mopac and AmFlyer can help you out. 

The parts list posted above by Tyrell54 is the best I've seen for these engines; lots of versions of the late Atlantics.


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Hi Mike,
> Since I've got the 4 engines I might as well get a set for each of them. Is Jeff a member here?
> 
> Joe


No he is not.. Jeff has all those springs and brushes in bulk, I just bought a load of them from him. He ships on the honor system, and if he has time, he will talk to you about anything.. And not to forget about Doug Peck at PortLines.. He has a ton of Gilbert stuff, and if Jeff doesn't have it, Doug will. In fact I'm going to order something in just a little while when he opens this afternoon.


----------



## OCJOER

Thanks for the info on Train Tender. I'm not sure if he sells those parts individually or in packs. I wrote and asked and will order them as soon as I hear back. In the mean time I have lots of track to clean and I'm going over all the cars to see what else I need to get. There are a couple of wheel/axle assemblies missing and some miscellaneous parts from a few of the cars. 

I've downloaded a train layout program called "AnyRail". It looks like I have plenty of track for a figure 8 inside of an elongated oval, the question is if mama will go along with moving a sofa in order to fit it under the tree, lol. 

Joe


----------



## TimmyD

OCJOER said:


> Thanks for the info on Train Tender. I'm not sure if he sells those parts individually or in packs. I wrote and asked and will order them as soon as I hear back. In the mean time I have lots of track to clean and I'm going over all the cars to see what else I need to get. There are a couple of wheel/axle assemblies missing and some miscellaneous parts from a few of the cars.
> 
> I've downloaded a train layout program called "AnyRail". It looks like I have plenty of track for a figure 8 inside of an elongated oval, the question is if mama will go along with moving a sofa in order to fit it under the tree, lol.
> 
> Joe


Good luck Joe! For what it is worth, we have to re-arrange the living room for the tree every year. 
A) Great time to clean those neglected spots under and behind furniture (at least in my house)
B) Has she always wanted a bigger tree? Bigger tree = larger diameter to work with. 
C) Can the couch be a tunnel? Always fun!
D) My wife has a little christmas town she likes to set up... If yours does, could it be incorporated into your layout and expanded upon?
E) ANY guests that come to the house absolutely LOVE the train set up! She likes compliments on the house and decorations. (I get mileage out of this one)
F) A small gift box lashed to a flatcar circling the tree also gets some mileage if you know what I mean.  
Good luck to you, sounds great!
TimmyD


----------



## OCJOER

Hi Timmy,

I have to rearrange the living room for Christmas every year. I tend to get a little carried away when I decorate for Christmas. We have a 12' artificial tree in the living room, a 7' one in the den and another 7' one in the bedroom. So going bigger isn't likely, lol. The layout I mentioned takes a 4' x 8' area, approximately. The way I have the 12' tree set up in the corner it uses up about a 5' x 5' area so the 2 couches are spread out to fit the tree (the 2 tables and some lights have to be put in the extra bedroom). If I go to 4' x 8' I'll have to move one of the couches somewhere else, this is the problem since I'm running out of room to put things. My plan was to build a tunnel where the figure 8 cross track is and use it as the tree stand. I'd have to build a box about 24" x 24" to bolt the tree stand to so I thought I'd get some wire mesh and build a mountain and cover it with snow. I'm sure all the guests would love it, expecially her 7 year old grandson and 2 year old granddaughter. I definitely like the gift box on the flatcar idea. This is looking more and more possible if not expensive 😇 I'm going to have to give the couch storage some serious thought.

Joe


----------



## OCJOER

I'm not sure if I can post this in the same post, if I need to start a new post please let me know. I've taken apart one of the tenders on the 293 engines. Looks like the wiring is in bad shape. I've found a wiring diagram but I can't locate a photo showing the parts and part numbers I need to get to rewire it. Here's what I've got. It looks like one of the insulation boards is broken and there's some moisture damage. Is this worth fixing? I'm pretty good with small electrics and have rewound motors and have the tools I need, I just need to know what parts I need and where they go.

Joe


----------



## AmFlyer

That is just a standard 4 position reverse unit, one of the finger boards has cracked in half. As long as the coil works the RU can be rebuilt. The parts are all available. The exploded diagram and part numbers are in the Factory Service Manual at myflyertrains.net, it is listed as 283/287. Flyernut has posted several times the step by step for repairing the reverse unit. This looks worse than it is.


----------



## flyernut

You're going to need part# XA9612-BRP, and part# XA9612-CRP, (upper and lower fingers). Buy them in bulk from jeff Kane at the Train Tender.. Spread the e-unit apart and remove the drum, polish it, and clean the axle holes and axles on the drum. When you put the new fingers in, bend them a little downward to insure good contact with the drum.


----------



## OCJOER

Thanks guys. I'll add those to my parts order from Jeff. (along with a couple trucks and wheel assemblies). The wire is just 18 ga. in the different colors? I've got lots in several colors. I'm also going to get some of the 2 and 5 wire jack sets so I can plug the tenders into the engines, most of mine are missing. 

Anything special I need to clean and polish the drum? I have the usual silver and brass and copper cleaners. 

Joe


----------



## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> Thanks guys. I'll add those to my parts order from Jeff. (along with a couple trucks and wheel assemblies). The wire is just 18 ga. in the different colors? I've got lots in several colors. I'm also going to get some of the 2 and 5 wire jack sets so I can plug the tenders into the engines, most of mine are missing.
> 
> Anything special I need to clean and polish the drum? I have the usual silver and brass and copper cleaners.
> 
> Joe


I use a "bright-boy".It looks like a eraser, but it has very minute particles in it.


----------



## T-Man

Jeff is backed up on orders. Expect a delay when you order. First reply was a week with a promise of 2 more.
He has sold so much some items are out of stock for me. i can only wait and see.


----------



## mopac

The unit looks usable to me. You need what is known as "upper" and "lower" fingers. The fingers make contact with the drum. Your drum needs to be removed and shined up. Spray the rest of the unit with CRC electrical cleaner.


----------



## mopac

I bought another 293 yesterday. I like them.


----------



## AmFlyer

Apparently you do. With the diecast shell and traction tires they are good pullers.


----------



## mopac

I hope it looks as good as the pics looked. Seller says it runs good.
Needs a headlight. Looks like a deal at 42.00 plus shipping. I meant
to go back and raise my bid but forgot. Worked out. If I had more experience
at quartering I would put traction tires (pulmor) on every engine I own.


----------



## AFGP9

As I have stated before I love Hudson's. That being said I don't love them enough to chase all the variations that you have listed Tom. Since I Have been concentrating on Hudson's, I knew about most of those variations but by no means all. Thanks Tom. 
The one Hudson I have no desire to own is the 21129 currently listed in Greenberg's at $1577. I can buy a few of the ones I don't have for that amount of money. Like Mopac, I will stick to the different cab numbers. Not saying I wouldn't be tempted to buy a reasonably priced variation, that is no longer my goal. As an example of variation abscessing, I offer the following example. I'm sure Mopac can relate. 
Once upon a time in a land far far away, I was into Hot Wheels and Matchbox collecting and AF trains. You want to talk variations? Get into collecting those things. I had a collection of 7,000+ Hot Wheels and 4,000+ Match Box cars including Lledo and Lesney variations not too mention the more modern variations. Although I was buying a selling both Hot Wheels and Matchbox, after a while of studying every known variation of both makes or looking for variations in stores or shows, eventually your eyes will cross and your mind goes side ways!! 
I stopped collecting and sold most of my stuff. I still have 2,000+ of both makes stuck away in boxes. I could care less. Can't sell 'em. 
At the same time, I was buying American Flyer engines and cars. I swore I wasn't going to get caught up into variation collecting with any of the AF stuff but slowly I did. Just like with the cars, there I was looking for railroad car variations regarding lettering fonts, color variations, or any other sort of variations as I found printed either here on the Forum or in publications. For the most part I have pulled back from the variations. Too mentally time consuming. This train thing is supposed to be fun. As intense as I was on the variations it became no fun. I am now at point where if I get a variation by dumb luck, so be it. I got enough problems trying to figure out some engine repairs which I really don't mind! 

Kenny


----------



## flyernut

AFGP9 said:


> As I have stated before I love Hudson's. That being said I don't love them enough to chase all the variations that you have listed Tom. Since I Have been concentrating on Hudson's, I knew about most of those variations but by no means all. Thanks Tom.
> The one Hudson I have no desire to own is the 21129 currently listed in Greenberg's at $1577. I can buy a few of the ones I don't have for that amount of money. Like Mopac, I will stick to the different cab numbers. Not saying I wouldn't be tempted to buy a reasonably priced variation, that is no longer my goal. As an example of variation abscessing, I offer the following example. I'm sure Mopac can relate.
> Once upon a time in a land far far away, I was into Hot Wheels and Matchbox collecting and AF trains. You want to talk variations? Get into collecting those things. I had a collection of 7,000+ Hot Wheels and 4,000+ Match Box cars including Lledo and Lesney variations not too mention the more modern variations. Although I was buying a selling both Hot Wheels and Matchbox, after a while of studying every known variation of both makes or looking for variations in stores or shows, eventually your eyes will cross and your mind goes side ways!!
> I stopped collecting and sold most of my stuff. I still have 2,000+ of both makes stuck away in boxes. I could care less. Can't sell 'em.
> At the same time, I was buying American Flyer engines and cars. I swore I wasn't going to get caught up into variation collecting with any of the AF stuff but slowly I did. Just like with the cars, there I was looking for railroad car variations regarding lettering fonts, color variations, or any other sort of variations as I found printed either here on the Forum or in publications. For the most part I have pulled back from the variations. Too mentally time consuming. This train thing is supposed to be fun. As intense as I was on the variations it became no fun. I am now at point where if I get a variation by dumb luck, so be it. I got enough problems trying to figure out some engine repairs which I really don't mind!
> 
> Kenny


When I was a kid, we had 4 sets, my favorite being the K335 with it's appropriate cars. I always loved the 944 crane car, and whenever I saw one, I bought it. I think I have approx 10-15 of them.. I have dark gray chassis, light gray chassis, printing on the wrong end, dark blue metallic chassis, light blue metallic chassis, and even a 944 with link couplers.All this was done by accident, not trying to collect variations.


----------



## mopac

I over do every hobby I have ever done. I go by "if one is good, more is better". Will probably have 4 293s when my latest arrives. Maybe more. No variations I know of. There are more mentally ill people out there. I got a very nice 332AC out of Texas. It came from a large collection. The owner dies and he had 2 semi trailers full of Flyers.
I am not that bad. LOL, I only have 1 semi trailer of trains counting HO, S, O, G scales.

flyernut, I really like the crane cars also. Not sure how many I have but a few.
I do not have a red one.


----------



## AmFlyer

I read what you guys are saying and I think "well, someone has to collect these things." Mopac, if you have a semi full you have way more than I do even counting all my Snow Village and AMT 1/24th scale race car sets. Kenny, I cannot imagine having that many toy cars, I knew dealers that had less. I lost track of my 1/64th cars and trucks but only have around 500. They were all bought for layout use. One era for the early 50's, the other era for the mid 60's.


----------



## OCJOER

I disassembled the 293 to see what other parts I might need. Looks like one of the wheel bolts that hold the drive arm to the front wheel is missing, the light bulb is dead and the wiring was obviously "repaired" at some point (with about 5 pounds of solder). It is also missing a spring and brush and the jack plugs so the wiring goes from the motor right into the tender. The jacks I'm finding only have 4 connection points. Does the 5th wire just go into the engine? 

The holes on the front of the chassis where the screws go to hold it to the housing are also broken. There's still enough for the screw heads to bite to hold it together but does anyone have any recommendations for repair? I've got the drum cleaned and found the fingers on eBay along with some other parts. 

On the other engine/tender, the 21160, is there a way to get the bottom off the tender? I see 2 metal tabs on the chassis in the front and a metal tab on the back that's bent down to hold it in place. I slid a small screwdriver between the chassis and body in the front and seemed to be able to move the chassis down but stopped in case that's not the right way to get it apart. I wanted to check the wires just to make sure they were not frayed or broken. The power runs from the wheels to the plug holes in the front but I was thinking it couldn't hurt to take a look at the 63 year old wires. I've got 10 more years than them and I'm starting to fray 

Joe


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> I disassembled the 293 to see what other parts I might need. Looks like one of the wheel bolts that hold the drive arm to the front wheel is missing, the light bulb is dead and the wiring was obviously "repaired" at some point (with about 5 pounds of solder). It is also missing a spring and brush and the jack plugs so the wiring goes from the motor right into the tender. The jacks I'm finding only have 4 connection points. Does the 5th wire just go into the engine?
> 
> The holes on the front of the chassis where the screws go to hold it to the housing are also broken. There's still enough for the screw heads to bite to hold it together but does anyone have any recommendations for repair? I've got the drum cleaned and found the fingers on eBay along with some other parts.
> 
> On the other engine/tender, the 21160, is there a way to get the bottom off the tender? I see 2 metal tabs on the chassis in the front and a metal tab on the back that's bent down to hold it in place. I slid a small screwdriver between the chassis and body in the front and seemed to be able to move the chassis down but stopped in case that's not the right way to get it apart. I wanted to check the wires just to make sure they were not frayed or broken. The power runs from the wheels to the plug holes in the front but I was thinking it couldn't hurt to take a look at the 63 year old wires. I've got 10 more years than them and I'm starting to fray
> 
> Joe


Here we go... The 293 is a direct wire engine/tender combo.. The wire colors should be gray, green, and black, so you do have a original wire engine/tender combo. You can ad a jack plug, male and female if you'd like, it makes working on the engine/tender much easier. I've done this on several locos of my own, and for customers. You lose the originality of the unit, but if you don't care, so be it. There are other engine/tender combos out there that are direct wired, to name a few the 283 and 289, there's more. Get your brushes and springs in bulk, also the head-lamps, you'll always need them.On the 5th wire, that wire goes from the tender to the smoke unit. It must have power going to the smoke unit when the e-unit is in reverse, neutral, or forward.


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## OCJOER

Thanks Flyer. Sorry for all the questions but I've just started one these and I wouldn't want to screw something up. I really appreciate all the help. I'm basically getting into this for myself so I'm not looking for perfection. I'll clean it all up and direct wire it for now. I'm not sure how often I'll need to work on it so I'm not sure the jacks would be that beneficial. I've got a list going of the things I'm going to order in bulk like the springs, brushes, fingers and lights. I suppose I should also get some smoke fluid. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

Here is a color enhanced wiring diagram for a 5 wire engine including the 293. This may help.


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## AFGP9

AmFlyer said:


> I read what you guys are saying and I think "well, someone has to collect these things." Mopac, if you have a semi full you have way more than I do even counting all my Snow Village and AMT 1/24th scale race car sets. Kenny, I cannot imagine having that many toy cars, I knew dealers that had less. I lost track of my 1/64th cars and trucks but only have around 500. They were all bought for layout use. One era for the early 50's, the other era for the mid 60's.


Tom at the time I was collecting/buying /selling I have a friend who was able to direct buy from Mattel by the case lots. He would order me a case of the latest case lot numbers. Back then we hit every K Mart, Walmart, Target, Kroger's, and any other retail stores we knew of twice weekly. A circuit so to speak. Tuesday and Thursday were the usual days for major restock. Doing that gave me a chance to check out any hobby stores as well for Flyer stuff. Being 1/64, I still have some '30's, '40's, early ,50's vehicles on my layout and some others I could use. I don't know how many AHL trucks I have, Not really collector but started out buying for the layout which sort of evolved into a mini collection. 

Kenny


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## AmFlyer

It must have really been fun!


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## mopac

I was on circuit also Kenny. Same guys all the time. My 2 stores were mainly Target and Toys R Us.
We got to know what we called truck day. The good stuff was gone 2 minutes after they opened. I
used to do "Kmart days" for Hotwheels. I think I saw there are only 4 Kmart stores left in the US.


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## AFGP9

mopac said:


> I was on circuit also Kenny. Same guys all the time. My 2 stores were mainly Target and Toys R Us.
> We got to know what we called truck day. The good stuff was gone 2 minutes after they opened. I
> used to do "Kmart days" for Hotwheels. I think I saw there are only 4 Kmart stores left in the US.


I forgot about those K Mart days and Toys Are Us. Did them too. It was like a shark feeding frenzy when there is blood in the water. Same guys were always there too. Kids better get out of the way because crazy grown ups are moving in and taking over. Truck days were Tuesday and Thursday which is why we went on those days. Sometimes I could get some AHL trucks too. I remember a 24 hour Super K Mart in Kankakee, Ill., busted an employee for opening Hot Wheels cases with certain case numbers. We always wondered at 7:00 am why there were cases sitting on carts opened. Right after that K Mart and I think Walmart sent out an employee order to stop that. I don't think it ever did. I did read that there were only 4 K Mart left. 

Kenny


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## OCJOER

I got a reply from Jeff on some of the parts but I found I also need to repair a couple of the trucks, but I'm not sure what prat numbers I'll need. I found a repair kit on ebay but I'd rather order everything from one source if possible. They appear to be the same trucks, see photos. If anyone can help identifying the part number or numbers I'd appreciate it. 

Joe


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## AmFlyer

They are not the same. The caboose uses a truck with power pickups for the light. The PRR gondola is one of only a few cars that used solid, non operating couplers. If purchasing new trucks for the gondola I would get ones with operating KC's but not with power pickups.


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## AmFlyer

To clarify, the truck assembly is the same, the caboose has metal pickup wheels with an insulating washer for one truck. The other car uses plastic wheels, no insulating washer.


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## flyernut

OCJOER said:


> I got a reply from Jeff on some of the parts but I found I also need to repair a couple of the trucks, but I'm not sure what prat numbers I'll need. I found a repair kit on ebay but I'd rather order everything from one source if possible. They appear to be the same trucks, see photos. If anyone can help identifying the part number or numbers I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Joe


The rivet is the same one that is used for AF tenders, part # PA10235. You'll also need the insulating bushing, and the plastic washer under the truck, all together 3 pieces.. I'll get you the part # for the bushing. You might also consider getting the small washer that finishes the installation, it's the last part that goes on the installation, and it holds everything together..On a tender it would be rivet, bushing, plastic washer, truck, copper pick-up strips, and then the washer.I get the bushings and rivets from Jeff Kane at the Train Tender in bulk, as I use alot of them.


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## flyernut

flyernut said:


> The rivet is the same one that is used for AF tenders, part # PA10235. You'll also need the insulating bushing, and the plastic washer under the truck, all together 3 pieces.. I'll get you the part # for the bushing. You might also consider getting the small washer that finishes the installation, it's the last part that goes on the installation, and it holds everything together..On a tender it would be rivet, bushing, plastic washer, truck, copper pick-up strips, and then the washer.I get the bushings and rivets from Jeff Kane at the Train Tender in bulk, as I use alot of them.


Part # for the bushing would be PA10209. I don't have a part # for that small metal washer but Jeff does have them, as I have ordered them before from him. Just describe to him what it is you want..Please bear in mind I'm not endorsing one supplier over another, I find Jeff has what I need when I want it, and many times I get my parts the next day..(he's only around 20 miles or so from me).


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## OCJOER

AmFlyer said:


> They are not the same. The caboose uses a truck with power pickups for the light. The PRR gondola is one of only a few cars that used solid, non operating couplers. If purchasing new trucks for the gondola I would get ones with operating KC's but not with power pickups.


I see what you're talking about. I forgot about the light inside the caboose. There were half a dozen cars in the batch of stuff I bought that have the non operating couplers. I guess I could order enough for all of them. 

Thank you again for all the help. 

Joe


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## mopac

Tom, are the axles the same length on Pike Master trucks and KC trucks? Joe, what might be cheaper is to buy a lot of knuckle coupler cars and switch trucks with your solid couplers. You will need to learn to set rivets. flyernut could give good advice on that. I have seen complete cars selling for cheaper than just the trucks. Just a thought.

Joe, the non operating couplers do work. I have some. But if the coupler breaks you have to change the truck anyway. You can not change just the coupler.Gilbert got cheap using them.


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## AmFlyer

I think they are the same length.


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## OCJOER

mopac said:


> Tom, are the axles the same length on Pike Master trucks and KC trucks? Joe, what might be cheaper is to buy a lot of knuckle coupler cars and switch trucks with your solid couplers. You will need to learn to set rivets. flyernut could give good advice on that. I have seen complete cars selling for cheaper than just the trucks. Just a thought.
> 
> Joe, the non operating couplers do work. I have some. But if the coupler breaks you have to change the truck anyway. You can not change just the coupler.Gilbert got cheap using them.


Good idea. I've seen ads for groups of cars in one state of disrepair or another that were pretty cheap. I'll go back and take a look at them. Hopefully they have knuckle couplers that I can use.


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## flyernut

Not sure about the length of the PM axles vs knuckle couple axles, but as we all know, there is a difference between the link and knuckle couper truck axles.


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## djjeffr

AmFlyer said:


> Welcome to the MTF!
> Gilbert S gauge track has 4 black ties per section. The straights are 10" and the curves are 20" radius. The rubber roadbed was made by Gilbert for that track. It was also reproduced by R. Johnson. In the 1960's Gilbert also made a different track system called PikeMaster.
> There are other track systems introduced over the years Some are GarGraves, American Models, Lionel S gauge FasTrack, American S Gauge, Fox Valley Models and SHS/MTH track. Go to the site portlines.com. It has an overview of these track systems with pictures. In the left hand vertical column it is the third item from the bottom.
> Also, the website myflyertrains.net has all the original Gilbert catalogs plus much more to get you started.
> Have fun looking!


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## djjeffr

I’m new to the forum and I can’t help but notice all the advice on using the various AF track types. I’m recently retired and relatively new to model trains. I have also caught “Flyer Fever”.
I’m building a layout of 3 interconnected but independent loops where I can run 3 engines (3xx series steamers) independently or one engine over all three loops via automatic switches. I “dry built” the layout on an 8’x 8’ platform using the newest Lionel-American Flyer FasTrack. I’m now ready to wire it and have come to the realization that Lionel does not offer isolation track pins for the new Fastrack for block wiring of my 3 loops. Has anyone encountered this issue and solved the problem? Any help would be appreciated. Dan J.


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## AmFlyer

S gauge FasTrack is a good system with a complete set of ready made pieces to build any layout without cutting the track. It was made primarily for command control operation, FlyerChief or Legacy. The turnouts are not power routing and there is no provision for feeding power to track other than with the terminal track section.
To create blocks (or separate Power Districts) the best way is to cut the rail mid section with a Dremel cutoff disc. To power the blocks either use another Terminal track section or solder feeders to the outside of the rails.


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