# Finding a prototypical balance



## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

First I am not attempting a prototypical layout or specific time period. However I don't want to stray into the completely weird. I know many here are very knowledgeable on real train cars and their history/operations. I want to have a modernish freight train, diesel motors at the front and freight cars of various sorts being pulled. 

Presently I have been gathering a wide assortment of different rolling stock and am looking for opinion on what would look completely out of place so I can avoid my train looking too unrealistic.

I have mostly been gathering union pacific road named engine and rolling stock/caboose. My buddy says I should vary it up more but I just am drawn to the yellow, blue and red colorings of UP cars. I do have other cars but is it normal to have mostly the same road named cars on one train?

Is there an order to how freight cars line up from front to back? Like box cars, covered hoppers, flat cats and the like?

I think my last variation is the length of my cars. I have two 86' box cars, a 60' and the rest are 40-50'. The 86 footer seems like it will make my smaller cars look like toys, is it prototypical to have trains with various length cars?

My layout is only on fledgling stages so I have not been able to set mine up and see how they look.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Many are sticklers that rolling stock and locomotives absolutely
match the era of the layout. Trouble with that attitude is that
you can't run some of those huge new super power 6 wheel truck
diesel locos if your 'time present' is back before the 60s or 70s.

My era and even locale was established by the Bachmann DCC
starter set I bought used. It came with GP38 and an F7A
locomotives all using the Santa Fe roadname. Those locos
ran in the 50s and 60s and Santa Fe was basically a Southwestern
railroad. So that's what I've fairly closely stuck to. I avoid the
big long cars in use today. Intermodal cars would be out of 
place. So would the huge enclosed car haulers and Amtrak
passenger cars.

But if your layout is today, chugging steamers would be out of
place except if they were on a 'tourist' run.

On the other hand, there's no reason you can't just plain enjoy
trains. Run whatever locomotive that you admire. Let your 50s
GP pull a string of Intermodal cars or have a steamer at the head end
of modern Amtrak cars. In videos of large club layouts I see
Big Boys and cab forwards running on the same tracks with
multiloco consists of the latest heavy power 6 wheel truck
diesels at the head of a long train of Intermodals. 

Except on a unit train...a train such as Florida's Tropicana
special that regularly runs from mid Florida to the North East...
or long coal drags, you seldom see all of the cars on a
mixed freight of the 'home' railroad. Watch any proto freight
and you'll see cars from every US railroad, Canadian
and Mexican lines, as well as cars specially designed to
haul products of individual companies.

It's all in fun and that's the reason we're doing it.

Don


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

SNNRail said:


> Presently I have been gathering a wide assortment of different rolling stock and am looking for opinion on what would look completely out of place so I can avoid my train looking too unrealistic.


Thomas the Tank cars would look very out of place!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

I definitely know I don't want to stick to any strict guidelines but like I said trying to learn what is held as acceptable. To at least help me when I place all my cars together.

What is Intermodal mean?

What about consist locomotives? Do Railroads usually have matching engines (ex both Conrail) or is it just as normal to have a Union Pacific and a Santa Fe or whatever?


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> Thomas the Tank cars would look very out of place!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Haha, yes they would! But as my son grows up they just might wander into my layout someday lol


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## Fire21 (Mar 9, 2014)

Read about intermodal shipping here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport

I live in BN and UP country...coal shipping. But both roads use locomotives of various other roads in the power lineups. Not uncommon to see SF with the BN engines (of course, they merged some years ago), and other road names too. The unit coal trains that UP hauls mostly use UP power, but sometimes there's someone else's locos in there too.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

Fire21 said:


> Read about intermodal shipping here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport
> 
> I live in BN and UP country...coal shipping. But both roads use locomotives of various other roads in the power lineups. Not uncommon to see SF with the BN engines (of course, they merged some years ago), and other road names too. The unit coal trains that UP hauls mostly use UP power, but sometimes there's someone else's locos in there too.


Thanks I will check that out. This whole thing has been a learning.... FUN learning experience. Not only understanding the ins and outs of model railroading but learning more about our rail system, past and present.

I recently have picked up some historical resources on the Hojack or Lake Ontario Shoreline that ran up here in my neck of the woods. It's really cool, wish I knew more locally who were into it too. But I tend to be a loner and don't see myself hanging at a club anytime soon. :-\


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Just curious...when a rolling stock ends up in different trains and is away from its owners service areas for a rather long time...who does the maintenance on it?


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

SNNRail said:


> First I am not attempting a prototypical layout or specific time period. However I don't want to stray into the completely weird. I know many here are very knowledgeable on real train cars and their history/operations. I want to have a modernish freight train, diesel motors at the front and freight cars of various sorts being pulled.
> 
> Presently I have been gathering a wide assortment of different rolling stock and am looking for opinion on what would look completely out of place so I can avoid my train looking too unrealistic.
> 
> ...


You say modernish, just how much modernism are we speaking?
For this you need some years quoted. A time period.
Many years ago the box cars came with the catwalk on top, it was the norm. Today you won't see them as they have been gone for many years.

As far as mixing the cars up that is OK, that is how cars travelled say from the East coast to the West coast. Or North to South. It was common, still is today.
If you want an all UP train, I say go for it. It is your RR.
I like the old CNJ, I will make a train of all CNJ's up.
Or like my Bethlehem Steel RR, I do the same thing.

I painted an old Lionel post war locomotive all ( horrors to the Lionel rivet counters) Orange and blue, I am in the process of acquiring and painting more rolling stock (all orange and blue). Pictures of my Orange and Blue train I am building here towards the end of the thread. I have a few more since I took those pictures and am still going to paint up some more rolling stock to add to it.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7467

It is my RR. :smokin:

Most of the time the cars are set up so that they are in the proper spot for their delivery destination. Another words put them anyway you like them.
Some cars will run better than others ( especially in O gauge) behind or in front of the train depends on the car. Once again it is your RR run them where you want. Unless it is a passenger train then they do go in an order.

The longer cars (86') would look OK to me along with the shorter ones, but I think I would run several 86 footers together, instead of putting them at different spots mixed with the 40-50 footers in the train.

But that is what I think, others might think different.hwell:
Bottom line It Is Your RR, run what you like.:smilie_daumenpos:


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

SNN -- you ask us what is acceptable, yet you're the only one who can answer that question. What do you find acceptable? Neither this forum, nor any other, nor the NMRA, nor any club, retail establishment, or manufacturer, has a Layout Police force that is coming to arrest you if you don't operate your layout correctly. Please yourself. No one else gets a vote.

That said, I share one of my favorite pictures with you:









How much care did these guys take to standardize? Of the 5 pieces of rolling stock in the original photo, none are from the same road.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

I certainly am not seeking the train gods approval for my train. Just curious to learn how cars typically run in real world, which may or may not influence my selection of trains.

Modernish for me is trying to stick to what runs today more so then 50+ years ago. However I have a gp40 engine because that read cheaper on eBay, someday I'd like to get an AC6000.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

big ed said:


> I painted an old Lionel post war locomotive all ( horrors to the Lionel rivet counters) Orange and blue, I am in the process of acquiring and painting more rolling stock (all orange and blue). Pictures of my Orange and Blue train I am building here towards the end of the thread. I have a few more since I took those pictures and am still going to paint up some more rolling stock to add to it.
> http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=7467
> 
> It is my RR. :smokin:
> ...


Sweet paint job! Looks really nice. Thanks for the input on the larger cars, that's what I was thinking of doing with the 86's. 

Today a train was going under the bridge I was on going to work. I slowed down and was making a note of the cars on it. Amazing how much more interesting it is to check them out now that I have gotten into model railroading. It's like taking in everything all over again.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

SNNRail said:


> I definitely know I don't want to stick to any strict guidelines but like I said trying to learn what is held as acceptable. To at least help me when I place all my cars together.
> 
> What is Intermodal mean?


Here is explanation and pics of Intermodal railroad cars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport

Don


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## jesteck (Apr 15, 2014)

The limiting factor will be the radius of your curves and turnouts. IMHO, 15 and 18", and #4's, are only suitable for yardwork and light rail (trolleys). 24" up to 30" is fine for general service, but longer cars- 80' or so- and 6-axle diesels will look and perform better on even broader curves. Feel free to mix the consist, but avoid jumping from a short (40' or less) car to an 86 footer without a few 50 or 60 footers in between; it helps with the transition on curves.


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## trains galore (Jul 22, 2013)

I just run whatever I like really

Don't forget that realism is not only the trains you decide to run but also stuff like track curves and gradients, the turns on my layout are very unrealistic because they are so tight and also limit what I can run, but due to space there is no other choice:laugh:
I think that if you want to run long trains realistically then you really need gentle curves and lots of straight sections, which of course means more space

Anyway, for me there is no ''right'' or ''wrong'' when it comes to modelling, I just make whatever makes me happy


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

big ed said:


> Unless it's a passenger train then order does matter.


What is the proper order? I have a set of 6 passenger cars for my second train. I believe one is a diner car, observation car looks like it is the rear car, a combine car and three coach cars.


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## SNNRail (Aug 31, 2014)

My mainline curves are 40"+ radius turns, running HO scale. The layout is a shelf going around my ceiling. The most unrealistic look to it will be my gradients. 

I can't wait to get enough track down to at least line my cars up together to see the order I want to go with.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

SNNRail said:


> What is the proper order? I have a set of 6 passenger cars for my second train. I believe one is a diner car, observation car looks like it is the rear car, a combine car and three coach cars.


Most of the time back in the steam days the baggage cars where behind the locomotive's tender and if there was a mail car it was in between the baggage cars. 
I think the coaches were next in line with the diner car in the between them. If a center top dome car was present it most likely be in the middle of the coaches, then the sleeper cars back in the end. More quiet towards the back of the train.
The rear car would have been the observation car and most had the rear viewing platform.

That is what I think, someone correct me if I am wrong.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

CTValleyRR said:


> That said, I share one of my favorite pictures with you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Penn Central (2nd unit) was formed by a merger of New York Central (1st unit) and Pennsylvania RR (3rd unit), so all three locomotives on that train are in fact from the same railway. The NYC and PRR units have not yet been renumbered or repainted into a merger scheme.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

big ed said:


> Most of the time back in the steam days the baggage cars where behind the locomotive's tender and if there was a mail car it was in between the baggage cars.
> I think the coaches were next in line with the diner car in the between them. If a center top dome car was present it most likely be in the middle of the coaches, then the sleeper cars back in the end. More quiet towards the back of the train.
> The rear car would have been the observation car and most had the rear viewing platform.
> 
> That is what I think, someone correct me if I am wrong.


This is generally correct; for specific trains there may be specific set orderings, that may vary slightly between railways, but not by much. There is a reason why baggage and mail cars are commonly referred to as "head-end cars".

This one breaks the rules a little with coaches between baggage cars at each end, but this is a pretty laid back backwoods (literrally - it runs almost 300 miles of mostly wilderness) passenger operation.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

SNNRail said:


> I have mostly been gathering union pacific road named engine and rolling stock/caboose. My buddy says I should vary it up more but I just am drawn to the yellow, blue and red colorings of UP cars. I do have other cars but is it normal to have mostly the same road named cars on one train?


Generally not. You'll find exceptions, but most trains will have cars from many different railways on it. Cars are physically interchanged from road to road so that a load from say Los Angeles can reach New York without having to be physically reloaded to different cars.



SNNRail said:


> Is there an order to how freight cars line up from front to back? Like box cars, covered hoppers, flat cats and the like?


Freight trains are blocked by _destination_, not car types.



SNNRail said:


> I think my last variation is the length of my cars. I have two 86' box cars, a 60' and the rest are 40-50'. The 86 footer seems like it will make my smaller cars look like toys, is it prototypical to have trains with various length cars?


Yes. It's only not realistic if the eras of the equipment are far too disparate. But for example, 86' boxcars were built in the mid 1960s, and some 40' steel boxcars were also built as late as the early 1960s, even though 50' boxcars were pretty much standard by the 1950s. A railroad car also has a service life of about 40 years, so steel cars from the 1940s were still in active service into the late 1970s. Lots of overlap.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

SNNRail said:


> What about consist locomotives? Do Railroads usually have matching engines (ex both Conrail) or is it just as normal to have a Union Pacific and a Santa Fe or whatever?


There are ways that this can happen.

Most commonly a train simply operates over one railroad's tracks. That railroad provides the power (locomotives) and caboose.

In some specific cases, two railroads will set up running agreements where a train from one railroad is handed over, power and all, to the second railroad to complete its journey. Or a pool train between a point on RR A and RR B. Both railroads might provide power to this pool service.

In cases where locomotives are operating on another railroad in this way, this is all tracked, and counted up as "horsepower-hours" (HP rating of the locomotive(s) times the number of hours it was on the other railroad). At a certain point, HPH are balanced between railroads, and any imbalance is repaid by the owing railroad loaning an engine or engines to the other railroad until the imbalance is worked off. These units can freely be used throughout the other railroad's system while on loan.

Or a railroad that is short of power can simply rent or lease extra engines from another railway or lease company.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

Brakeman Jake said:


> Just curious...when a rolling stock ends up in different trains and is away from its owners service areas for a rather long time...who does the maintenance on it?


Simple running repairs will be performed by the host railroad's shop and billed to the car's owner. Keep in mind that their are thousands of privately owned cars out there not owned by a railway company with its own track and shops.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

CV

Very interesting report on how the railroads work with each other
to the benefit of all.

I had been curious about the interchange business relations. The
large Railway Exchange Building in downtown St. Louis (which also housed
the now gone 10 floor Famous Barr Department Store) had offices
of a number of railroads. I assumed that was so that they could
conveniently exchange the volumes of the then all paper manifests and train
orders. This, I would guess, is all computerized today.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

cv_acr said:


> Penn Central (2nd unit) was formed by a merger of New York Central (1st unit) and Pennsylvania RR (3rd unit), so all three locomotives on that train are in fact from the same railway. The NYC and PRR units have not yet been renumbered or repainted into a merger scheme.


REALLY! No kidding! And here I've been modelling Northeastern railroads for 20+ years, in total ignorance of that. Next, I bet you're going to tell me some tall tale about how the Penn Central bankruptcy was the largest corporate failure in American history up to that point, and that Amtrak and Conrail were formed by the Federal government to help clean up the resulting mess.

Sarcasm aside, your post reinforces my point. Which is that locomotive availability always trumps appearance, and that no prototype railroad gets overly concerned about standardizing appearance and paint chemes. I can't actually read the reporting marks on the cars, but the coil car is in what looks like Western Maryland colors and the 5th is New Haven (which, at the risk of insulting YOUR intelligence, was probably also owned by PC when the picture was taken). 

The reason I like that picture is that it drives home the point that modelers should not get too hung up on making sure they operate only home road cars and the most recent paint scheme.


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## cv_acr (Oct 28, 2011)

CTValleyRR said:


> Sarcasm aside, your post reinforces my point. Which is that locomotive availability always trumps appearance, and that no prototype railroad gets overly concerned about standardizing appearance and paint chemes.



Well CT, you can see how having engines in three different paint schemes (including pre-merger) for the same railway is quite a completely different concept than from three actual different unrelated railways (like NYC, Canadian National and Santa Fe for example).

The sarcasm was a little unnecessary.

Also, if we're still looking at the same photo, that green boxcar is Great Northern.



CTValleyRR said:


> The reason I like that picture is that it drives home the point that modelers should not get too hung up on making sure they operate only home road cars and the most recent paint scheme.


I agree with this point whole heartedly.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

Sorry if you didn't appreciate my sarcasm.

Now that I look more closely at the photo, I agree that the painted herald on the angle does indeed look like a GN. This photo was sent to me by a friend, who claimed that a friend of his captured all of PC's predecessor equipment on one train. Maybe not (or maybe the NH stuff is out of the frame). NH did do lime green boxcars for a short period, though, but looking at photos, I can only see horizontal lettering, not angled.

My photo was never intended to be an example of something out of the ordinary, but of something common. I see Metro North, Amtrak, and Shoreline East sharing power all the time up here (well, down here to you).. A CSX loco on a Providence and Worcester train is not unheard of either.


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