# Lionel Super O Track System



## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

Does anyone have an interest in Lionel Super O Track?

Mike


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Back in the 70's I had a large Super O layout from track that I had accumulated. I still have the track and maybe someday will create another Super O layout. IMO, folks have quite a bit invested in their current track systems that it would be difficult to switch even if it was possible or available.

Bill


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

https://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=518798&stc=1&d=1576811746

It is fair to say that many think it is the best looking track system not to mention it is less costly then the newer track systems. There is a very loyal following. A good source is Ebay. Yes, all items are readily available.

Mike


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I always thought it was the best looking of the 3 rail systems. Never got into it due to the tight radius switches though have since found out some modify them for larger radiuses.
Had Lionel gone back to Super O instead of Fast track I would have been all over it.

Pete


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## Bull6791 (Dec 14, 2015)

What is super o track. How does it compare to fast track. That is what I use. Thanks.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

That's a big yes. Watch my videos and you will see a section of my main line has SuperO in it.

SuperO hasn't been made since the 60's had crappy switches and only came with 0-36 curves. With that said, in my opinion it was and still is the best looking track system out there. Next layout on the straight aways I plan on incorporating more SuperO


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

The closest thing "in appearance" to Super-O in modern-day production is MTH ScaleTrax, which is what I used on my layout today. As a young boy, I was drawn to Super-O in the Lionel catalogs. But by the time I got my first toy train set (1966/67), Lionel's Super-O production was sparse to non-existent. And by 1968/69, it wasn't even catalog'd anymore. 

David


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

This will give you a good understanding of Super O track with photos. It was offered by Lionel from 1957 through 1966:

The History of Lionel Super "O" Track 
http://www.tcaetrain.org/articles/operating/supero/index.html

Mike Spanier

PS Yes, it is readily available on Ebay and from other sources.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

You have been here long enough you should show what you have done with it!

I have collected some of it but I will not pay outrageous prices for it.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

T-Man said:


> You have been here long enough you should show what you have done with it!
> 
> I have collected some of it but I will not pay outrageous prices for it.


Super O track is LESS expensive then Fastrack, Atlas, MTH and all the newer systems except for good old tubular (O and 027).

At one time it was quite expensive but has not been since the arrival of Ebay.

Mike Spanier


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

No argument there. Super O is the most expensive track I have. 

It does get lost in the selections available today.


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## Joe Connor (Sep 2, 2018)

I, too, fell in love with the look of Super O in the early '60s. It looked so much more realistic than tubular.

An interesting link on the history of Super 0 was posted earlier.
http://www.tcaetrain.org/articles/operating/supero/index.html

Lionel applied for a patent on March 26, 1951, but the patent was not granted until March 30, 1954. Super O was produced beginning in 1957. Doesn't that seem like an undue lapse of time (six years from the patent application to production)? If Lionel had moved more quickly and introduced Super O in, say, 1954 or 1955, might it have a greater chance of success? I wonder what was the cause of the delay.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

Current day, you mean the most INEXPENSIVE?

Mike Spanier


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## Toy train hobby (Aug 3, 2019)

I agree, Super O does looks nice. Unfortunately, with its 036 radius curves, you won't be running any of the larger (scale) offerings.

Running smaller steam, diesel units and cars, Super O is fantastic.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

The folks who are into Super O have made wider radius': really any you want. Have a friend with a large Super O layout who expanding part of it to make 96" radius. Should anyone be interested I can provide a tutorial that lists the steps and tools involved. The finished product looks just like regular Super O.

Mike Spanier


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## Toy train hobby (Aug 3, 2019)

Sounds interesting, Mike. 

Unfortunately, for me, I'm late to the Super O party, for I've already chosen track and switches for my layout. 30 years ago, without ebay and social media, acquiring Super O was more of a challenge to locate in large numbers. For that reason, I didn't give it strong consideration and went with readily-available GarGraves and Ross Custom switches.

In the book; Great Toy Train Layouts of America, by Tom McComas and James Tuohy, one of the featured layouts was by Ron Davis and Bill Taylor, in Cleveland, OH. Their layout was done entirely with Super O track and I always appreciated their efforts on a finely crafted layout.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

Several years ago Steve Garofalo recreated his version of the 1957 Lionel Super O Show Room layout. It was approximately 15' x 24'. If I could figure out how to post photos I could give you a glimpse. It was featured in Classic Toy Trains. He used 072 curves that were custom made. It was a beautiful layout. It was up for about 8 years.

Mike Spanier


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

*The Super O Patent Question Answered*



Joe Connor said:


> I, too, fell in love with the look of Super O in the early '60s. It looked so much more realistic than tubular.
> 
> An interesting link on the history of Super 0 was posted earlier.
> http://www.tcaetrain.org/articles/operating/supero/index.html
> ...


Here is the answer to your question by a member of another group to which I belong:

"The patent for Super O as we know it was NOT made in 1951. That patent was for a design which never made it to production. The patent for Super O was applied for October 22, 1958, and granted or issued in January of 1963 - pat #3074647. Lionel often waited to file a patent until almost a full year after the product was introduced. There was good reason for this. First, by that time production design had been completed and the patent would show the most recent example. Second, a patent application must be filed within one year of the date on which your invention is first published, commercially used, sold, offered for sale, or disclosed to a group of people without restriction. So, to get the most time from the introduction of a product, Lionel waited almost a full year before applying for the patent. At that time, the duration of a utility patent was 17 years from the date the patent was issued. So, in January of 1980, the patent expired. A patent cannot be renewed. Today, a patent is valid for 20 years from the date of the application as long as fees are paid at certain intervals to keep the patent in force. The cost of a patent and the fees required at certain intervals is considerably more today than it was back then."

Mike Spanier


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

lionelsuperotrack said:


> Super O track is LESS expensive then Fastrack, Atlas, MTH and all the newer systems except for good old tubular (O and 027).
> 
> At one time it was quite expensive but has not been since the arrival of Ebay.
> 
> Mike Spanier


I'm paying about $7.80 for a 37" section of Gargraves flex track. Is Super O less than that?


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

Maxum said:


> I'm paying about $7.80 for a 37" section of Gargraves flex track. Is Super O less than that?


Good comparison......................

Mike Spanier


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## Joe Connor (Sep 2, 2018)

lionelsuperotrack said:


> Here is the answer to your question by a member of another group to which I belong:
> 
> "The patent for Super O as we know it was NOT made in 1951. That patent was for a design which never made it to production. The patent for Super O was applied for October 22, 1958, and granted or issued in January of 1963 - pat #3074647. Lionel often waited to file a patent until almost a full year after the product was introduced. There was good reason for this. First, by that time production design had been completed and the patent would show the most recent example. Second, a patent application must be filed within one year of the date on which your invention is first published, commercially used, sold, offered for sale, or disclosed to a group of people without restriction. So, to get the most time from the introduction of a product, Lionel waited almost a full year before applying for the patent. At that time, the duration of a utility patent was 17 years from the date the patent was issued. So, in January of 1980, the patent expired. A patent cannot be renewed. Today, a patent is valid for 20 years from the date of the application as long as fees are paid at certain intervals to keep the patent in force. The cost of a patent and the fees required at certain intervals is considerably more today than it was back then."
> 
> Mike Spanier


Mike, so that other site has erroneous dates?


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

Joe Connor said:


> Mike, so that other site has erroneous dates?


Take a look at below:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/b6/79/78/2c4b3918eab2e2/US3074647.pdf

Mike Spanier


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

lionelsuperotrack said:


> Good comparison......................
> 
> Mike Spanier


Ask a serious legitimate question, get a smart a$$ answer..........


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

lionelsuperotrack said:


> Good comparison......................
> 
> Mike Spanier


What I meant is that a Super O straight is 9 7/8" long compared to a 37" flex track sample. Very different. Yes, if you want to measure this way Gargraves is less costly. No offense meant.

Mike Spanier


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## Joe Connor (Sep 2, 2018)

lionelsuperotrack said:


> Take a look at below:
> 
> https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/b6/79/78/2c4b3918eab2e2/US3074647.pdf
> 
> Mike Spanier


Thanks, Mike. That date makes a lot more sense.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

*Christmas Super O Video*






Happy Holidays!

Mike Spanier


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## Toy train hobby (Aug 3, 2019)

Nice video... great looking track too.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

Custom curved Super O layout with very long trains.






Harris Spanier


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I like the look of Super O the best. Maybe it's not scale accurate, but it has a visual "ruggedness" that melds with my image of heavy, powerful trains.

I looked at starting my layout on Super-O but I could never get past the scarcity and price of the center rail connectors; often missing from used track.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

One issue with Super-O is the narrow center rail cuts pickup rollers, I've seen some interesting examples come into Henning's Trains for repair. One actually had the roller cut completely in half.


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## lionelsuperotrack (Nov 12, 2010)

The first issue of Super O track came out in 1957 and at that time the rollers were made out of cast iron. Lionel quickly realized that the CAST IRON rollers were not suitable for Super O, too soft. They changed the rollers to steel and that problem was resolved. We have 750 members on our Super O group and that NEVER has come up as a negative in 15 years. Yes, there can be roller wear but no more or less that with any other track.

Mike Spanier


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the rollers that were chopped in half by the Super-O were on a TMCC GP-9.


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## arkady (May 15, 2013)

lionelsuperotrack said:


> The first issue of Super O track came out in 1957 and at that time the rollers were made out of cast iron. Lionel quickly realized that the CAST IRON rollers were not suitable for Super O, too soft. They changed the rollers to steel and that problem was resolved. We have 750 members on our Super O group and that NEVER has come up as a negative in 15 years. Yes, there can be roller wear but no more or less that with any other track.
> 
> Mike Spanier


I can only report my own experience. I had a Super-O layout for about three years. During that time, I never experienced unusual roller wear of any kind.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

I read that Lionel addressed the issue by changing the metal allow for the rollers. Of course, this was later in the post war period. So earlier postwar and prewar rollers were still subject to the problem.

I have some prewar loco's with rollers that are pitted, no so worn just pitted. And this causes poor running on my tubular track. They'll have to be replaced. I think the pitting is from poor contact with the center rail though I can't see how.


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