# Yard Ladder Help



## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I have a 4x7 foot area I want to install a stub yard. I am new at this and need help on laying out a yard ladder to maximize storage length.

Can anyone provide a schematic showing turnout type (left or right) and spacing to achieve maximum storage?

I have mostly 40-60 foot cars but have some auto racks. So am thinking #6 turnouts but if #5 can work that will help storage length.

Thanks in advance.


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Yards and terminals -- Switching nightmares.
But you might start with a Walthers 3-way (or two). I believe they're configured in #6.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

The determining factors are the length of the yard space and the frog number of the turnouts you can cram into that space and not have cars derailing due to S-curves. IOW, you can use higher frog numbers, say #8-#10 and run long cars, and perhaps get more tracks nested against each other, but the storage on the ladder tracks will be minimal because the longer turnouts eat up the length you have to work with. So, you go the other way and use shorter turnouts, say an Atlas #4 Customline (which is really a 4.5), and get longer ladders, but you have fewer of them because you have to crank back to parallel from those steeper frog angles. What's a guy to do!?!?!

First principles: 

a. try to have a yard if possible;

b. use only turnouts that allow your longest rolling stock to use them; and

c. avoid cramming trackage into small layouts like the plague!!!

So, in your small spaces, maybe all you can get, reasonably, is two or three turnouts and three ladder tracks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

A 4 X 7 foot area will provide space for a yard of
8 or so stub tracks of a ladder track using #4 or
Peco small radius turnouts. I have no cars longer
than the 70 ft Athearn silver side passenger cars and
only 4 wheel truck locos. None have problems with
negotiating my two yard ladders each with 8 stub
tracks.

I use a design that results in short spurs at the
farthest end of the ladder track.

Another way to design a yard is to use Y or 3 way
turnouts that have additional Y turnouts branching
from them. Think connected tines on a fork.

I also highly recommend using twin coil turnout motors
controlled through a diode matrix panel system. It is 
especially convenient in a yard of 8 or so spurs.
You press one button in your panel destination track
and all points in that route are set. It sounds complex
but is very simple to wire.

Don


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

So I am thinking #6 turnouts (Peco as that is what I have for flextrack) as a compromise for compactness and length.

Can they be attached back to back with no track placed in between? And if so, what will the track spacing be once they run parallel (center to center)?

Again - thanks for the help.


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## mesenteria (Oct 29, 2015)

Yes, they can be connected that way, but don't count on the metal joiners between them conducting electricity reliably. You might have to solder a pair of feeders to at least one place on each turnout.


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## tr1 (Mar 9, 2013)

*A crammed ladder yard for the transitional period storage and service*

A three way turnout along with additional turnouts that are
shortened,:smilie_daumenpos: which increases the amount of turnouts in a given short
space greatly increases the amount of ladders in a given short
space of ~3'. Please check out the GG&N layout blog here at this
forum. Look under the tr1 "album" section to get a better idea of the yard I created with the limited space of this Atlas plan.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

You should make really sure you want a storage yard using that much space on your layout. If you are wanting space to do some switching work you may be better off with a three track double ended yard if you can work that in, or a three track stub end yard.
I never recommend using layout space to store cars, although I will not criticize those who do. Store your extra stuff in flats or on shelves, reserve the always too small layout space for running. Railroads don't store cars , they move them.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

No problem with back to back Peco turnouts.
However, you will have
to trim some off the ties in some tight situations.

Don


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

See attached photo. This is a rather large platform for both my slot cars and railroad. So I do not have a space issue. And I like the detail of the cars such that I want them visible at all times.

The area in the front is for the railroad. I plan on putting a harbor in the middle as it will be a scenic area that I won't have to reach after it is done. The engine servicing area is on one side of the harbor and the main yard on the other. You can see where I laid blue tape to rough out the railway locations. I will have two mains going around the platform that will feature a passenger drop off for the race fans.

I will use info on this thread and other sources to continue the build.


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## time warp (Apr 28, 2016)

Very nice room, should be interesting!:thumbsup:


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I did a little work this morning. 

I used three #7 curved right turnouts feeding four #6 straight (2-left and 2-right) turnouts. Will this work if I add some track between turnouts? If so, this will maximize yard length.

Some questions:

1) Can I mix manufacturers (Peco and Walthers)?

2) Are all turnout length and angles the same between manufacturers?

Many thanks again for the help.


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## Jimganley (May 28, 2016)

:appl:You have a most fantastic set up it is absolutely GORGEOUS.
Thank You for the photo.
J


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes, you can use various makes of turnouts,
together but they do not have the same geometry or
measurements. You cannot replace, for example,
an Atlas with a Peco without realigning your track.

Peco uses Small as their designation for similar #4,
Medium as a similar #6 and Large for #8.

Don


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## LateStarter (Mar 12, 2016)

Here you go...


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Possible problem*



bonez said:


> See attached photo. This is a rather large platform for both my slot cars and railroad. So I do not have a space issue. And I like the detail of the cars such that I want them visible at all times.
> 
> The area in the front is for the railroad. I plan on putting a harbor in the middle as it will be a scenic area that I won't have to reach after it is done. The engine servicing area is on one side of the harbor and the main yard on the other. You can see where I laid blue tape to rough out the railway locations. I will have two mains going around the platform that will feature a passenger drop off for the race fans.
> 
> ...


 bonez;

The curved track approaching your yard may cause problems when you try to back a train in. Looking at the top yard track, in your photo, I see a reverse curve. The cars first have to turn right (as they approach the yard) and then turn left to get onto that track and possibly the next track down. Reverse curves should be avoided anywhere on a layout as they are notorious for causing derailments, even when a train is being pulled forward. This is especially true in a yard as the cars are being pushed backward. 
I would recommend two things. First make the curved yard approach track a wider radius. Second, build a "pinwheel yard" with a series of right hand turnouts. They should be connected with the curved route of the first turnout feeding into the points end of the second turnout. The curved route of that second turnout then feeds the points end of the third turnout and so on. The end result should mean that a cut of cars backing into any yard track will be either continuing a right turn, or coming off a right turn, into a straight yard track. At no point in this arrangement does a cut of cars have to reverse the direction in which it turns, which is a very good thing in terms of keeping the cars on the track! For this reason, given your particular track layout, I'm going to disagree with the prior responses recommending three way turnouts. In your plan three way turnouts would inevitably include reverse curves. Yes they are shorter than their equivalent of a right hand turnout followed by a left hand one, but that is their only advantage, and in my opinion, not worth introducing reverse curves. There are other ways to shorten a yard ladder. The turnouts can be cut to eliminate non essential trackage from the ends, but since you're new, you might not want to attempt cutting up expensive turnouts. It might be wiser to settle for fewer yard tracks, to gain greater reliability. Someone suggested a double ended yard. That's a good idea, if you have the space, and enough money to double the number of turnouts in your yard. A cheaper way would be to double end one track. This "runaround track" is very handy when switching. It allows the engine to get to the opposite end of the train, which is essential when making, or breaking up, a train.

good luck;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I was concerned with the various S turns in the concept. I will layout a pinwheel concept and see what it yields.

Although, please look at my second photo as I used a series of curved turnouts to smooth the curves and start the ladder higher in the approach. This arrangement has reversed curves but are smoother. Same concern?

I should buy a Walthers and Peco to compare before I commit to the final design.

Thanks for the help. I'll post a photo of the pinwheel and solicit your comments.

Thanks all again.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Second photo*



bonez said:


> I was concerned with the various S turns in the concept. I will layout a pinwheel concept and see what it yields.
> 
> Although, please look at my second photo as I used a series of curved turnouts to smooth the curves and start the ladder higher in the approach. This arrangement has reversed curves but are smoother. Same concern?
> 
> ...


 bonez;

I saw your second photo and its improvements, after I sent my previous reply. The new arrangement is better than the first, but as you mentioned, it still has several reverse curves. I have learned by hard experience that any track arrangement should be as simple as possible in order to be as reliable as possible. I have a shortened (cut turnouts) yard lead on my layout, but it is a straight ladder, with all left hand turnouts. We model railroaders have to deal with cars that are nowhere near their scaled-down weight, compared to the real thing. All model turnouts are ridiculously sharp by prototype standards. We have to accept these limits since we don't have all the room that the real railroads do. However that means we can't get away with some of the things they can. This includes some fairly twisty track arrangements in some of their sidings. 
I am a firm believer in the old phrase "Keep it simple, stupid." I've learned it the hard way, by trying a lot of complicated stuff over the decades, and having no end of frustration doing so. 
I'm not going to say that the track arrangements in either of your photos won't work; only that they won't keep trains on the rails as reliably as an arrangement that does not have any reverse curves. If you find that a pinwheel ladder is too long for you, you can try shortening it by cutting the turnouts down to the bare essentials. This means cutting the curved leg off just beyond the frog, and cutting the entry track off about an inch before the points. You can test this idea by overlaying turnouts on top of each other, before actually cutting them. This will show you approximately what will, or will not fit.
When you buy your sample Walthers and Peco turnouts, buy an NMRA gauge too. (unless you already have one.) The gauge will let you check each type to see weather or not it meets all the various measurement standards, or not. You may be surprised that the very reliable Peco does not meet the flangeways standards at all. However, it still works well. It's designed with over-width flangeways to accommodate slightly out of gauge wheels.
You can learn a lot more about turnouts by reading some earlier posts. In the "General Model Train Discussion" section of this forum, go back a page or two and look for the titles, "How I scratch-build turnouts", and "Improving Atlas turnouts" both by me Traction Fan. These will help you understand how turnouts can cause derailments, and what you can do to prevent them. Some of the info may be useful even though you are not scratch-building your turnouts, or using Atlas brand ones.

good luck, and I will look for your post/photo of a pinwheel ladder;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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## bonez (Feb 2, 2014)

I am a retired rocket scientist (mechanical engineer but worked the major space programs over the last 35-years) and strongly relate to your keep-it-simple philosophy. 

The pinwheel ladder was too long. It also made the approach 90-degrees to the yard. So it won't fit my layout.

I will attempt my second concept but will review other options one more time before I commit to buying the turnouts.

I am freelancing my layout as I am more a slotcar guy than railroader. But I think the new locomotives and rolling stock are so detailed and cool looking. We had a large layout as kids in the 1960's so this is where my interest was born.

I am purposely keeping the areas that could be suspect for derailments near the platform perimeter so I have good access. I will put more scenery elements in the center. Plus the yard is more for storage and display not operational sessions.

I have another thread that I will post progress. The room is spectacular and when both platforms are farther along it will be really awesome. I have been dreaming this for the last 15-years. I am very blessed to having realized my dream.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*OK*



bonez said:


> I am a retired rocket scientist (mechanical engineer but worked the major space programs over the last 35-years) and strongly relate to your keep-it-simple philosophy.
> 
> The pinwheel ladder was too long. It also made the approach 90-degrees to the yard. So it won't fit my layout.
> 
> ...


bonez;

I understand what you are saying about the length of the pinwheel yard. The only thing I can suggest trying, before you buy a lot of turnouts, is to see if the curved route of the pinwheel ladder can substitute for the curved approach track. With the shortening (cutting) and the re-positioning of ladder as curved approach track, that's as small as it's going to get. 
If that won't fit, then you may have to use your second photo's arrangement complete with reverse curves. The #7 and #6 turnouts may help a little as they are relatively broad by model standards.

Good luck with whatever you choose;

Traction Fan:smilie_daumenpos:


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