# The "other" forum....



## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

I will do my best here to contain my growing dislike for a certain "other" online O scale forum. 

Basically, I would go there mainly for technical advice or to read about tech topics. I posted a topic about my new Lionel S-2 and the trouble I had with getting it to run. I did receive a reply suggesting a possible problem.

I then posted that I was able to fix the engine by simply cleaning the factory blackening off the wheels.

A second post appeared, posted by the forum/webmaster basically admonishing me for the improper use of a word. It was an aggressive and ignorant post in my opinion. I have seen him do it to other members in the past and found his demeanor to be "small minded" and petty. So much for being one of the "leaders" of the forum.

Well, I have to say, that the MTF forum, this O gauge forum in particular, is so much better, especially in the way the members treat each other. I am glad to be here.

As for the "other" forum/ site, I have to say that I can no longer have a presence there, due to the hostility and passive aggressive attitude that seems so prevalent there. I won't be missed, obviously.

I know many people here also post on the other forum. I don't hold it against you, lol, but I cannot take part in such a negative atmosphere that exists there, especially from it leading members.

I have to say I really appreciate the general upbeat mood this forum, the MTF, has in general. I hope people understand my frustration with trying to be constructive only to be taken to task over a small grammatical error on the "other" forum. 

I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening.

Tom


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Tom that's why a lot of us are here. I have had my issues with them too. I was there the other day and some fellow started his post by saying "this might be a dumb question" and was told yes it is a dumb question. Not all, but quite a few are a nasty bunch. That kind of thing has never happened here.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

There are different rules for different folks over on the other forum.

Bill


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

There have been many posts like yours, Tom. I'll just say: Welcome to MTF. :smilie_daumenpos:


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Vent away! I understand. That used to happen to me, to. In particular I was admonished for using the term "engine driver" to describe the person who operated (drove) the locomotive, rather than engineer. 

My uncle drove locomotives for the Santa Fe Railroad for forty years. He was ultimately one of the most senior and experienced on the whole railroad, skilled at operating the big Mallets or multi-unit diesels that were used as helpers to get others over Raton Pass. He never called himself an "engineer," always an engine driver. I recall him saying that was the title on his pay stub, too. 

Just consider who said that and let it pass. You have to tolerate them, not respect them.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Interesting. I was just informed that my posts to OGR are now being moderated. 

Pete


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Norton said:


> Interesting. I was just informed that my posts to OGR are now being moderated.
> 
> Pete


Wow, you should feel honored.


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## Wood (Jun 9, 2015)

Lee Willis said:


> Just consider who said that and let it pass. You have to tolerate them, not respect them.


Why would I even want to tolerate that kind of disrespect? 

Here, I remain tolerated and respected.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Just for the record, I do not intend to "paint" everyone there with a single brush, but the atmosphere is definitly on the grumpy side of things. 

I do get nice responses to my posts, but those occasional, mean spirited entries just bug me. 

I tend to be a bit "thin skinned" but when someone is obviously belligerent or condescending, I fight back. I hate being that way.

Thanks for the responses to my vent. I appreciate the fact that I am not the only one this has happened to. People, when they post here are definitly more positive and upbeat. I see and appreciate that fact.

Pete, I guess the fact that your posts are being moderated "over there", means you are on "double secret probation" lol.....

Tom


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## papa3rail (Oct 8, 2016)

I was banned from the place that shall remain nameless back in 2014. It all started over them deleting my posts talking about a new form that I had joined and me having the nerve to tell the powers that be over there that I took exception to it.

Back in 2007 when I started my layout and was seeking a place to get information I posted a couple of questions at OGR and at CTT.I received no response at CTT ( too busy hanging around the coffee pot to be bothered with a newby I guess) while OGR members on the other hand gave me a boat load of replies, so I thought this is the place for me.

Back then you could ask any question without fear of retribution because of your modeling incompetence. You could show your work without being informed that you had a pipe in the wrong place or be asked why you did it that way. If a vendor had treated you right or had something others might appreciate for sale you could freely post their information. Well I guess time changes everything and it certainly changed the face of OGR.

Eventually the other place(OGH) got to a point where nobody was posting any more,So thank goodness for this place. I've only been posting here since the early part of March but I am thoroughly impressed.Everybody here is appreciative of the work their fellow members are doing and respectful of each others opinions,and they seem to genuinely enjoy each others posts.
Kudos to you all.:appl:

As for that other place all I can say is "steer clear of the dark-side Luke Skywalker".


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Think of it this way. They have driven some of the best folks in our hobby to the MTF. They highhandedly launched a real thorn in their side they haven't been able to pull out. The MTF had a very small footprint at one time, but that has sure changed, thanks to them.

*We are all thankful for the MTF.*


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm getting tired of that other forum. Just not the same, as when I joined way back in the early 2000's. Different group of members and a lot of the original class is gone now. I'll still post there but not as much as I used to.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Norton said:


> Interesting. I was just informed that my posts to OGR are now being moderated.
> 
> Pete


Wow Pete, that only happened to me once a few years ago! 

Tom, one thing I have learned about the Internet, it's a tough crowd in some sites if you're thin-skinned. I think I can dish it out with the best of them, but sometimes it does get tiresome.


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

Norton said:


> Interesting. I was just informed that my posts to OGR are now being moderated.
> 
> Pete


Big Brother is watching. I was banned from there the same time as Dave, for something I said about them on another forum. It was pretty petty. It didn't bother me all that much though since I had in effect been gone from there for over a month. I couldn't deal with being stifled and censored constantly. I didn't fit in to the perfect world, Utopia they were trying to create. And now it's run by a salesman and his sponsors.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I can't berate people for speeling and grammer as I'm bad at both of them.


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## Chugman (Jun 17, 2015)

I guess I am lucky that I am a nobody in the eyes of forum management The "other forum" has offended me, at times alienated me, their management is rude, but I have never had my posts monitored or at least I was never told that they were. I have had them moved, sentences deleted, and even threads that I have participated in deleted, but I never felt it was personal. 

I put up with the other forum because there are more good people there than bad. They have a much larger participation and I can get answers faster from more people. I just posted a question in the Real Railroads section and got 13 responses quickly with exactly the type of info and pictures I was looking for. I doubt if I would have received one answer here. It was a Midwestern question and three people from my area had the answers. Even provided newspaper clippings to back it up.

So, I like both forums. Here it is friendlier and non-confrontational, there it has more people with more info. Depends on what you want and what you are willing to put up with. 

I am also working on being more tolerant and forgiving myself. Being less judgmental would help me as well. I realize this doesn't fit well with the bash the other forum narrative, but I just have to call it like I see it.

Art


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## Volphin (Dec 7, 2015)

Krieglok said:


> I will do my best here to contain my growing dislike for a certain "other" online O scale forum.
> 
> Basically, I would go there mainly for technical advice or to read about tech topics. I posted a topic about my new Lionel S-2 and the trouble I had with getting it to run. I did receive a reply suggesting a possible problem.
> 
> ...


I had to go look. Your response was freaking PRICELESS. :laugh::laugh::appl::appl: Some folks are just grumpy by nature I guess. Glad we don't tolerate that crap here!


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## bluecomet400 (Sep 13, 2015)

I just looked too, Tom. Fantastic response. Correcting someone's grammar is just about as rude as it gets!!


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Norton said:


> Interesting. I was just informed that my posts to OGR are now being moderated.
> 
> Pete





Vulcan said:


> Big Brother is watching. I was banned from there the same time as Dave, for something I said about them on another forum. It was pretty petty. It didn't bother me all that much though since I had in effect been gone from there for over a month. I couldn't deal with being stifled and censored constantly. I didn't fit in to the perfect world, Utopia they were trying to create. And now it's run by a salesman and his sponsors.


They've deleted post I've made in the past. One was a joke about people in my town not knowing where York, PA is. Another was a comment I made about Jeff McComas being Tom McComas' son. Our positive nature keeps most of the negative comments away. When someone has an attitude we just ignore them and they eventually go away.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

I think I joined this forum a while back, but just recently rediscovered it. I have always been on again off again with most forums, and OGR was no exception. For no other reason than sometimes life is too busy, or my interests or less at some times than others.

I had wondered what had happened to some of my favorite posters, namely Lee Willis and Passenger train collector. So, now I know.

My main issues with the other one is that it seems some people take offense and become combative too easily, here seems more laid back. Next is how some are treated differently and don't have to follow the forum rules set for the rest of us, especially on the FS forums, the third is how certain threads get locked while others don't, especially in regards to people calling out Lionel.

Finally, vbulletin, because hoopla you know, how do I put it, hoopla just isn't that great of a platform.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks for all the fine input you guys have contributed. I am really not a combative person by nature, but the whole incident/subject just gnawed at my insides. 

I can take a fair hit as well as the next guy, but a cheap shot really gets me. I used to play ice hockey and there was always "chirping" amongst the players. The difference was you could drop your gloves and go at it. 

I can't and do not wish to do that anywhere else, so venting was the next best thing.

Thanks again for the insights. They are very therapeutic! 

Tom


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

Sometimes you just have to vent, Tom. Fortunately we can do that here without being censored. I occasionally visit the other forum and have never had a problem, probably because I don't post very often.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Please let the rest of us in on this thread. I too would love to see your response.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I left there a couple years ago and have never looked back.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I just read the thread, and it sounds like the Fearless Leader got up on the wrong side of the bed!!! Tom, you should feel honored that it was Rich, who admonished you.


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

Rich is no longer there, retired. That's been the main problem. Though it started long before. He just couldn't see it.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> Please let the rest of us in on this thread. I too would love to see your response.


The thread was "cleaned up" by the moderator. The juicy bits are gone now...lol.

If you are interested in the topic in general, look here...

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/stalling-loosing-power?reply=79142442634960461#79142442634960461

Here is the locomotive that started the storm...lol...

Tom


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## balidas (Jun 3, 2011)

Krieglok said:


> The thread was "cleaned up" by the moderator. The juicy bits are gone now...lol.
> 
> If you are interested in the topic in general, look here...
> 
> ...


Now you can proudly say you have been redacted.


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

The "CEO's" comments were removed too. All the better. It was all so silly. 

Tom


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Someone must be stalking me over there.
I tried to respond to an item on the for sale forum. The sellers email was not in his profile so I posted I was interested and I can be contacted though my profile. Within a minute my post disappeared.
Has this become someone's full time job? What a life or lack of.

Pete


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## Krieglok (Sep 7, 2013)

That's kind of bizarre. Nothing wrong with trying to propagate a sale in the "community". You just never know what makes these people tick...

Tom


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2018)

My opinion, sooner or later the *BIG* delete button may come home to roost for those who are eager to pass it out on others, if you get my drift.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

Norton said:


> Someone must be stalking me over there.
> I tried to respond to an item on the for sale forum. The sellers email was not in his profile so I posted I was interested and I can be contacted though my profile. Within a minute my post disappeared.
> Has this become someone's full time job? What a life or lack of.
> 
> Pete


The attempted use of their forum software for a "For Sale" area is a colossal joke.

Wrong tool for the job - hence all the arcane and absurd rules.

These are the kind of issues of the issues you encounter using hosted platforms like Hoop.la. - a lack of options and plug-ins for specific tasks.

:SELLIT:


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Hi Guys!!! I hope I haven't disappointed any of you by chiming in on this thread so late in the game -- currently on Page 4. 

I was gonna contribute some general thoughts that are highly appropriate since recently getting the boot from the "other forum" last month. But I'll hold off on that approach and briefly address the points in the following posts I read earlier in this thread, and you'll get the general idea of what I wanted to say: 




Vulcan said:


> Rich is no longer there, retired. ....


Make no mistake about it. He's there, and his arrogance and pompous, hot-headed attitude is alive and well over there. He's responsible for kicking me off his precious forum when I showed absolutely no signs of attrition when he put my account back on full moderation status -- accusing me of coming down unfairly on Lionel when I talked about the poor quality I encountered with my 21" passenger car purchases. I wouldn't have any of his nonsense that day, so I told him to stick his keyboard where the sun doesn't shine. And a few hours later my account was disabled completely. For those of you new to MTF, the details of how that all unfolded (and a bit more) can be found here on MTF in Aaron's *"Lionel's New Union Pacific Excursion Train"* thread... starting on Page27 and a couple of pages beyond.






TexasSP said:


> I think I joined this forum a while back, but just recently rediscovered it. ....
> 
> I had wondered what had happened to some of my favorite posters, namely Lee Willis and Passenger train collector. So, now I know.
> 
> ....


Funny how that happens, right? It's like TV/radio anchor folks who are here one day and gone the next.  And it leaves the viewing/listening audience to wonder what happened to so-and-so.

I ran into several good friends at York last week, and they all asked me why I'm no longer posting "over there". So I had to explain to them that I CAN'T post over there. At which point a few responded, "So THAT's why we didn't see your _York Virtual Bandit Meet For-Sale Thread_ this time!!!" I guess that sort of became a mini-cult expectation over there. And I was always happy to do it. But like all things, that too shall pass. And I'm sure that type of thing will be resurrected in other ways down the road.  

Ironically, just as I was ready to leave the York Fairgrounds on Thursday, somebody approached me who had purchased from my OGR for-sale threads in the past. And he indicated he still wanted to purchase some of the tinplate items I posted earlier in the year for Allentown, but I explained I could no longer update that thread on the forum anymore. Consequently we made arrangements to conduct business offline. So even the mighty hands of OGR's pompous moderators can't stop good things from happening in this hobby. 





Norton said:


> ....
> I tried to respond to an item on the for sale forum. The sellers email was not in his profile so I posted I was interested and I can be contacted though my profile. Within a minute my post disappeared.
> Has this become someone's full time job? What a life or lack of.
> ....


Pete, that's precisely what I predicted in Aaron's thread after I got the boot. By selling ad space on the forum, OGR is now dealing with a tricky dilemma of allowing talented members the flexibility of showing some personality and speaking their piece vs. keeping all the sponsors "happy". And to no surprise, OGR is following the money trail. 

As the old saying goes, there's no free lunch in life. And whether OGR realized selling ad space would land them in this double-edged sword dilemma, or whether they were caught by surprise is anyone's guess. But they're now clearly OWNED by their sponsors as far as the forum is concerned. They've lost a well-known train dealer's sponsorship recently. So that's understandably hit a raw nerve, and they've now opted to strictly placate sponsors rather than allowing long-time forum members the freedom of offering balanced and candid product reviews that cut both ways -- talking about the good and the bad. And if the bad outweighs the good sometimes, that's not the fault of the person writing the review. After all, we pay good money for these products. And we're entitled to talk about our experiences in a professional manner. But OGR only wants it THEIR way or no way. So I (and some other very talented hobbyists) are no longer allowed to post there. Others have simply left the frustration of that environment in their rear-view mirrors. 

I really do understand the delicate tight-rope OGR is now walking, and I get the fact that social media sometimes will "pile on" with negativity at times. But OGR needs to also take ownership that their style of forum management hasn't been the most friendly over the years. And that only serves to stir the pot more than they probably realize. 

Getting back more on point though... in terms of placating sponsors, OGR has indeed created a nearly full-time moderating function to ensure _anything_ out there has their blessing. In the months leading up to my getting the boot, I had whole posts deleted; I had entire paragraphs of posts deleted; and I saw for-sale thread replies deleted even if the responder mentioned he had trouble sending an email. Occasionally, I'd see a for-sale response (before it got deleted) and know the member from prior transactions, so I knew how to get reach the person to keep the communications going. But I have no idea how many responses I may have missed due to OGR's pettiness.  Ultimately, they also put my account on full moderation status for a couple of weeks in January. So when they did that again in March, I felt enough was finally enough... after putting up with their BS for 17 years!!!

As this dialogue sequence from the movie Good Morning Vietnam goes when Airman Adrian Cronauer (Robin Williams) is forced to leave at the end of the movie.... I'm reminded of OGR's moderators every time I watch this scene in the movie:

_*General Taylor:* Woah, Dick, put the brakes on. I wanted to wait until airman left to talk with you. Dick, I'm transferring you.

*Sgt. Major Dickerson:* Transferring me? Where to sir?

*General Taylor:* You're going to Guam.

*Sgt. Major Dickerson:* Guam sir? There's nothing going on in Guam. Why Guam?

*General Taylor:* Dick, I've covered for you a lot of times cause I thought you were a little crazy. But you're not crazy, you're mean. And this is just radio.

[goes to the elevator and laughs]

*General Taylor:* "More dire need of a <Well, this is a family forum, so you'll need to watch the movie yourself!> than any white man in history." Now that's funny._​


*Yes... No doubt about it, OGR moderators. You're not crazy, you're mean. And this is just a model train forum.*


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm sure Rich still has a hand in things. He said he would. He's also admitted numerous times that he doesn't follow the forum that closely. He reacts when he gets an "alert". And not wanting to spend anytime on it, he usually hits the delete button. Somebody else there spends a lot of time on the forum, and looks for things. That someone is (was) also the one hired to attract paying sponsors. Who's more likely to get upset if anyone says anything negative against the sponsors? A lot of things went on behind Rich's back that he never saw, because that same someone was given full moderator privileges and things got deleted before he could ever see them. So when someone called Rich out on something he was dumbfounded. I saw this happen numerous times. Not saying Rich is a Saint by any means but he's not the real Devil over there.


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## towdog (Oct 2, 2015)

As bad as it has become, it is their business model. As profits from the magazine have likely waned, they need to supplement their income through forum sponsorship. I get it. 

The downside is that now we have a fragmented user group in a hobby that was fairly small to begin with, which is never good. We all benefit from learning from each other and OGR has lost some of the big voices in our hobby that are now here. And MTF loses the perspectives and contributions of the people on OGR. It's a lose-lose for everyone.

But here we are and slowly more people are finding their way over here so there is hope.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Their loss is our gain. 

If they are all a bunch of pompous jerks, why would anyone want to stay no matter the knowledge base?

I've been a member of various forums with that type of attitude; there are always others to visit.


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## Roving Sign (Apr 23, 2017)

MichaelE said:


> Their loss is our gain.
> 
> If they are all a bunch of pompous jerks, why would anyone want to stay no matter the knowledge base?


The answer to that question and more is explained on page 52 of my book "How To Get Along At OGR" - available for digital download for just $29.99.


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## cole226 (Feb 8, 2013)

I've browsed over there, but never signed on.

Seems like a lot of good folks, but I notice a few seem to think their "crap is odorless"!

All I know for sure is that a lot that were there are now here.


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

Roving Sign said:


> The answer to that question and more is explained on page 52 of my book "How To Get Along At OGR" - available for digital download for just $29.99.


I'll take a case!

Being an HO modeler, and an even more obscure Deutsche-Bahn modeler, I have no inkling of ever signing on there or any other strictly O forum, but anyone can be a jerk on any subject.


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## c.midland (Sep 22, 2015)

There are very few pompous jerks over there. The few there just seem to be more prolific.
When you're on top, sometimes you become a bit pompous, especially if you're at or nearing the end of your career. At this stage, being grouchy becomes normal. It's pretty easy to call someone out over something small at this point. The healthy way to handle this situation is to get out of it, of course, after you realize you're doing it. That last bit is usually the challenge. We've all been there with our jobs and personal lives. Most of us get out when it's way too late... 

The main problem is the advertiser vs. the subscriber/reader. The moderation favors the former, I was part of the latter. Between dropping my subscription of over 20 years, and a program know as adblock, I'm right with the world again.

I'm grouchy. Sometimes I post grouchy posts. Even as grouchy as I am, I don't single anyone out, especially for something that doesn't matter. As a grouchy person, post what you want. If a manufacturer/importer screws something up, that's on them, and you should be able to post about it, even your typing/spelling isn't up to someone else's standards. Just don't make it personal with someone you've never met. That's the way I live my grouchy life...


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## MichaelE (Mar 7, 2018)

I see no adds on any website. I have my browsers protected against that.


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

Tom you found a picture of me before my morning coffee.


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## Chiefmcfuz (Dec 30, 2008)

Tapatalk doesn't have ads


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## DennyM (Jan 3, 2016)

c.midland said:


> There are very few pompous jerks over there. The few there just seem to be more prolific.
> When you're on top, sometimes you become a bit pompous, especially if you're at or nearing the end of your career. At this stage, being grouchy becomes normal. It's pretty easy to call someone out over something small at this point. The healthy way to handle this situation is to get out of it, of course, after you realize you're doing it. That last bit is usually the challenge. We've all been there with our jobs and personal lives. Most of us get out when it's way too late...
> 
> The main problem is the advertiser vs. the subscriber/reader. The moderation favors the former, I was part of the latter. Between dropping my subscription of over 20 years, and a program know as adblock, I'm right with the world again.
> ...


I belong to The Grumpy Old Man Club.


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

MichaelE said:


> ....
> If they are all a bunch of pompous jerks, why would anyone want to stay no matter the knowledge base?
> 
> ....


I want to be very clear about something: there are lots of terrific forum members "over there" (as well as here on MTF). Many have been around since the "early days", which I consider to be roughly the 2000-2001 time frame. I was never part of the earlier online special interest groups when AOL first started, but I've heard horror stories about folks not getting along too well in that environment. That being said, I only need one hand to count the number of "jerks" in a community as large as OGR's. What I always had trouble understanding was good folks taking their own time to post good solid content -- only to have select content deleted on a whim which you couldn't find when you returned back to visit the forum. That's a management issue plain and simple -- not a community issue.... *with one exception*: and that's the culture that OGR management fostered among community members to alert them to things going on that they didn't like. Aside from half a dozen or so self-appointed forum police who pushed the alert button on every other post, 99% of the membership over there are stand-up hobbyists looking to share good information and learn from others.

I would certainly hope many of the OGR forum members still think those of us here on MTF are part of the "good guys" in the hobby. And based on seeing a nice group of folks regularly at York and Allentown train shows, I know that's the case with them. I've encouraged all of them to check out MTF when they ask where I've been spending my online train-time.  And I'm getting the sense that more folks have begun to do that, but I also recognize that some people simply enjoy the "familiarity" of the group they've corresponded with for so many years. Change is difficult, but it's also a way to grow.

Another super large group is Harry Henning's "O-Gauge Model Railroading Tips & Tricks" Facebook group for those of you into more formal social media circles. I certainly wasn't one of those who embraced Facebook early on. But I use it very selectively now. And Harry has worked hard to build a community of over 10,000 members to talk trains. It's just a very different way to communicate as compared to the more traditional online forum venues. And as far as I'm aware, I don't believe there's any easy way to search discussion topics on Facebook. If there is, someone please let me know. Bottom line: there are ALWAYS alternatives in life. And the cream of the crop ALWAYS rises to the top. So even though some of us are persona-non-grata on OGR right now and might miss posting a question or two to OGR's admittedly large community, we have a great group of dedicated folks here on MTF and an amazing and growing global community on Harry's Facebook group. 

I post all of my new layout videos here on MTF as well as on Harry's Facebook group, because I love to share that kind of stuff with as broad an audience as possible. And since I've been booted off OGR, those folks are missing out on those videos and other great projects like Brian's (PTC's) wonderful Christmas Layout in the making. As towdog mentioned in an earlier post, it's a shame when an already small niche group of hobbyists becomes further fragmented over petty management styles where grown adults are managed like Kindergartners. Perhaps others don't see it that way, or they do but can look the other way so it doesn't bother their enjoyment of the online part of this hobby. I tried looking the other way for 17 years. And after 2018 started the way it did over there, I sure as heck wasn't gonna look the other way one month more. :dunno:

David


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Roving Sign said:


> The answer to that question and more is explained on page 52 of my book "How To Get Along At OGR" - available for digital download for just $29.99.


*OK, that was funny! *


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## Booly15 (Aug 16, 2017)

Life is too short to get involved in petty nonsense, if it's there and not worth your time you move on, I had to listen to people spew for 33+ years of a career because that was my job, I could completely disagree but had to listen, and even at times have to negotiate or explain to people who simply wouldn't or worse yet, couldn't be capable of listening. So now when I encounter that, I simply move on. I have very little first hand experience at any other forum, and have found great information here, and quality people who seem to just want to share this hobby. So thats my 2 cents, enjoy your weekend.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

Very true Booly 15! I don't have time for a bunch of nonsense and petty infighting. Besides, it's pretty pathetic to see the OGR leadership pandering to their advertisers like a bunch of Waterboys. It's hard to respect anybody who would give away control of what was once a very good Forum, all for a few advertising dollars. 

For me, there's MTF and nothing else. I'd rather talk to myself than waste my time on a Forum that's run by a bunch of Sad Old Sellouts.

Emile


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2018)

More and more are seeing the light and coming over regularly to join this happy flock. Those who don't in my humble opinion may have few other options some day.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

It's different for the relative newcomers like me. I finally went to the OGR website and it looked like it was bought and paid for by Lionel with the 1st thing I saw was Hitchcocks explanation. 

If Lionel was on all websites equally then that message would have been posted here as well, so somehow that OGR website is Lionel based. 

I was using my smartphone so I did not have the ability to easily browse content.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Passenger Train Collector said:


> More and more are seeing the light and coming over regularly to join this happy flock. Those who don't in my humble opinion may have few other options some day.


Yes, It's a nice place. :smilie_daumenpos:



Bryan Moran said:


> It's different for the relative newcomers like me. I finally went to the OGR website and it looked like it was bought and paid for by Lionel with the 1st thing I saw was Hitchcocks explanation.
> 
> If Lionel was on all websites equally then that message would have been posted here as well, so somehow that OGR website is Lionel based.
> 
> I was using my smartphone so I did not have the ability to easily browse content.


Didn't used to be so much, gotten worse lately. Now any Lionel dissent is squashed pretty quickly.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Bryan, The one major difference of OGR compared to MTF, is that OGR is “0” gauge primarily, hence their title 0 gauge railroading. Here at MTF, we cover, and allow all gauges, with NO discrimination. There other sections, that cover most every aspect of our Hobby. OGR was a decent forum, years ago, when it first started. Recently, (past few years), they invited sponsership, from various sources, of which Lionel, was just one part. That was the begining of the heavy moderation, that reared it’s ugly head. Anything that seemed negative that mentioned about a sponsor, got an immediate deletion. OGR’s sponsors are providing money to the magazine & the forum, so you can see how things have come about, with many people leaving such an environment, and coming here, where it is more friendly, and relaxed. We don't run the forum, with Iron Fisted moderation. 

There are times, when our moderators need to step in, to get things back on topic, or to delete certain subjects that come up, primarily in the “Union Station” section. Union Station, is the place post and chat about subjects, not related to trains. The one subject that isn’t tolerated in Union Station, is Politics. It is too touchy of a subject, with too many individuals, to discuss their opinions, in a Civil manner. Comparing OGR & MTF, is like comparing Apples to Oranges.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

Who actually started and owns this forum? Just curious.

I do find it interesting how really inflammatory things can be posted about MTH and nothing happens, but if you say anything much about the almighty Lionel, the wrath comes down. Not just from the OGR staff, but also other members.

I get Lionel is the original, but it's not the original Lionel by a long shot.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TexasSP said:


> Who actually started and owns this forum? Just curious.
> 
> This forum?
> A guy with the handle of Two Rail started MTF. Back around 2005 or 2006.
> ...


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

This one. I know who owns the other one. Thanks for the answer.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

TexasSP said:


> This one. I know who owns the other one. Thanks for the answer.



I am trying to find a thread I had way back when.
It explains why and who.

A copy and paste,
Tworail started this site, 04-12-2006.
Boston & Maine was his right hand man the SUPERMOD. He signed up 12-18-2007. when he became the mod is unknown.

Both had a contest of a train giveaway.
Not too long after that they both ceased posting. 


*****
Life took over for tworail, B&M just stopped coming on after a while. 

The current owner is Canadian based? 
I think they still are? 
Gunrunner can tell who is now.


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## Big Ed (Jun 16, 2009)

The first MTF contest,

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=4237


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The Owners of MTF, is Verticalscope, based out of Toronto, Canada. If you scroll all the way to the bottom of this page, Terms of Use & Copyright should be visible. Click on terms of use, ant there is the explanation of the Owners.


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## Spence (Oct 15, 2015)

I never previously gave any thought to who own this forum. Interesting post.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Spence, For the most part, why would our members really care who owns the websites, or the forum “platforms” that they run on. The type of forum, requires a hosting type platform, for the actual forum to work. In the case of MTF, they opted to use vBulletin, as their host. This forum is run using their software, and was purchased to use it. There are actual tech people, from vBulletin, that do things way behind the scenes, that only Admins & Moderators can get info from. So you have two entities that make MTF possible, which is Verticalscope, the owners, & vBulletin, the software platform that the forum operates.

Over on OGR, their operating platform is Hoop.la, which is a totally different way of formatting the forum. Other than that, I don’t know more specifics on who the True Owner is, or what kind of support they have. It seems to me, that OGR is more into being Sponsor driven, which is the major drawback, to what is going on over there. If you more or less stay on topic, of talking model trains, and layouts, tinplate, etc., things are fine. If you have a problem with something associated with a sponsor, and it appears to be bashing them, the WRATH descends upon you, with heavy moderating, deletions of posts, or parts of a post, and then getting “Expelled” from OGR, altogether. OGR has gotten into heavy moderation, by individuals, who have been granted those priviliges, and that is the main reason, some of their better members have left, and have come here at MTF.


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## Scotie (Sep 27, 2013)

While there's no question that the atmosphere here is great and we have a couple of fantastic folks posting great threads.
I must confess I still visit OGR regularly and I find much of interest there, mainly technical/repair threads, the random trolleys and etc. I am continually amazed at the attitude of many of the posters about "is it scale?" so often and then insist on having crew talk on steam engines, total fantasy paint schemes on so much of the equipment, electro couplers and smoke galore.
I've learned to avoid responding with my humble opinions on threads that have some of the snarky folks responded. Some seem to be able to get away with most anything with impunity but legitimate criticism of Lionel gets you booted.


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## TexasSP (Sep 8, 2011)

I asked about ownership as I was curious what motivated this forum and kept it moving, that's all. I realized I joined in 2011, but there must not have been a lot of activity then.  I rediscovered it due to a forum email that had topics listed etc. Then I find all of these people who disappeared from OGR.

The different rules for different people is one of the things that gets on my nerves the most there, especially in the for sale forum. But, it seems some can be very rude and condescending and that is accepted, while others who make the slightest off remark have their posts deleted.

I have been on a lot of different forums over the years and never seen it quite so obvious.


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## highvoltage (Apr 6, 2014)

TexasSP said:


> I asked about ownership as I was curious what motivated this forum and kept it moving...


A common interest (as with most forums), and a fair and common playing field (most everyone treats everyone else with respect).

As far as ownership, VerticalScope is the owner (as Teledoc pointed out), but they are funded by sponsors (which you see scattered around your window, if you don't use an adblocker). The difference here is that the use of sponsorship does not dictate the content of the messages.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2018)

We are very fortunate to have probably the fairest platform among the various forums that serve our model train community. We get to post honest reviews of our experiences with products (good and bad) without intimidation or having our content deleted of unfairly criticized. 

Ask yourself, why are of some of the best folks in the O-Gauge hobby an active part of the MTF. Believe me, it is not a coincident. 

Time has a way of weeding out players who don't deserve our participation.


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## Traindiesel (Sep 8, 2015)

This is a great train forum with great participants. We can truly discuss model trains honestly without a sponsor hanging over our shoulders. I don't really think that complaints about products are maliciously intended to destroy any particular manufacturer, at least I don't see it as that. People's responses I believe are mostly constructive because they care and love trains and want the manufacturers to be successful. Yes, some spew venom, but I still believe at the heart of the comments it's because they love trains and want them to operate correctly.

That said, I don't understand losing sleep over comments or actions on an internet forum. It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks or does. Let them wallow in their own negativity. To my knowledge I've never had an issue with anyone on these forums. Sure, I may disagree with a comment, or someone may disagree with mine, but I'm on these forums to have fun and nothing or nobody can prevent me from doing that. Because this is my favorite hobby that I like to share in. I guess I prefer to always take the high road so I don't allow the negativity to affect me.

The only improvement to this forum I'd like to see, and I know it's been mentioned before, is to be able to post videos from our desktop rather than just a video hosting site. But that's just me, sometimes I don't feel like taking the time to upload and wait for YouTube.


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## Brucet47 (Apr 26, 2016)

I enjoy both forums. No need to throw stones back and forth. Glad we have a choice. 

Bruce


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Brucet47, If you had the opportunity to read the original post on OGR, there was a legitimate issue with a sponsor’s product. I personally think that the response by none other than Rich Melvin, was totally uncalled for, and out of place. That thread has been edited, from the original form, with parts deleted. I do use OGR, but only occasionally. My primary focus is here. I am completely Prewar/Postwar, and I don’t have the issues that others are dealing with, so I don’t have any skin in the game, per se.


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

That sounds more like Alan (affectionately known as Anal) Arnold's work than Rich's.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Vulcan, Did you see the original post over there, before the judicious editing??? I’m referring to the comment made by Rich M...


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

No, I didn't see it. I'm just saying it sounds more like the way Anal has been doing for years. He was doing a lot of things that Rich got blamed for and Rich never saw. Maybe now that Rich has retired he has more time to be "attentive" to the forum. No offense intended but you really had to be "mainstream" OGR to see what was going on. You wouldn't likely see it in the Pre-war/postwar section.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Vulcan, The response by Rich Melvin was really stupid on his part, to make a comment about Tom’s use of the wrong word, in his original post. Is it that much of a problem, with wording (spelling of the word), that he has to make a nasty remark (nasty by my terms & others), and post it for all to see. It took very little time for the exchange of posts, to be either deleted or edited.


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

Ok, I have seen Rich do that. I just haven't seen him spend the time to "edit".


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## Rocky Mountaineer (Sep 19, 2015)

Regardless of who does the editing over there, I've always said... if we had a dollar for every time somebody rewrote history over there by deleting threads, posts, or portions of posts, we'd be able to buy a VisionLine locomotive (and now perhaps even a Hybrid Brass steamer) each year!  

Moderating that forum has practically become a full-time job now!!! Scary thought. 

David


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## Vulcan (Nov 12, 2015)

True. And, for the record, I'm not defending Rich, by any means, just saying he's the lesser of the two evils. IMO.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay gentlemen, I think we have beat this horse to death, and like other older post, in regard to OGR & here at MTF, it’s time to close this thread. It isn’t solving any issues, but bringing some old sores, with some of our members. So consider this thread closed.


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