# New layout thoughts?



## kerz (May 25, 2015)

First one in a very long time for me. Based off the City of Wauwatoga layout from MRR. HO scale, 8'x15.5' hanging platform (yes, hanging!). Curious on what folks thing are the shortcomings. My areas of concern are having enough room for inclines to loop over the track on the upper right, and being able to reach over the raised track. Also unsure of what to do with the middle for now, so stuck with the prototype.

A lot of this will be experimentation for me working with new bits and pieces. I'm coming from Atlas HO code 100, and switching to Peco code 83 for most of the layout. I'm mostly interested in freight switching and engine yard options, but I also have a full size Rapido Canadian that'd I'd like to get some exercise at times.

Thoughts?


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

*Wow, thats a lot of track.*

Kerz;

You asked for feedback on "what people think might be wrong with it".
First off; there's no such thing as a really "wrong" way to build a model railroad. Ultimately 
your own satisfaction with it; or lack there of, will be all that matters.
Looking at your layout, the first thing that struck me was the large amount of track. That's
OK if you want, for instance, to have nearly all the space devoted to what appears to be Two large yards, and very little main line between them. This has been done successfully many times. Adding a double sided backdrop, or high ridge,could give a convincing illusion of two different towns, each with its own rail yard.

Before going on, I have some questions for you.

Is this layout built, mostly built, or still on paper? You cited prior railroad building experience. Are you sure you want to bite off this much construction? That's a lot of work and will take a lot of time to build, assuming it's not built already.

What do you mean by suspended? Does the layout raise up to the ceiling when not in use?


As for the middle, one thing I would NOT do is put more track in it. Reaching the center area for maintenance, track cleaning, or re-railing a train, will be difficult/near impossible from the outside edges. If you can, you might cut out the middle, turning it into a duck under access hatch. That would make it easy to reach any part of the railroad.
I don't understand your concern about grades. If the layout does hoist up to the ceiling, then the height of anything on it might matter a lot. If not, then you can build as high as you want. I can't give any intelligent advice without hearing more from you about your grade situation, and the answers to my questions. 

Regards;

Traction Fan


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## kerz (May 25, 2015)

Thanks for the quick reply! Replies below:



traction fan said:


> Kerz;
> Looking at your layout, the first thing that struck me was the large amount of track. That's
> OK if you want, for instance, to have nearly all the space devoted to what appears to be Two large yards, and very little main line between them. This has been done successfully many times. Adding a double sided backdrop, or high ridge,could give a convincing illusion of two different towns, each with its own rail yard.


That's been sort of my thought. I'm much less into scenery, and more into operations. I may never get to the point that I do anything fancy other than spray paint the base green and put cork over top of it.



traction fan said:


> Is this layout built, mostly built, or still on paper? You cited prior railroad building experience. Are you sure you want to bite off this much construction? That's a lot of work and will take a lot of time to build, assuming it's not built already.


Still on paper. I have a blank canvas of 8x15.5 built with nothing on it so far.



traction fan said:


> What do you mean by suspended? Does the layout raise up to the ceiling when not in use?


Yep. It's in the garage and lifts up out of the way on a cable/pulley system. This part is built and mostly finished. I'm still deciding on legs for when it's down, but that's a minor project at this point.



traction fan said:


> As for the middle one thing I would not do is put more track in it. Reaching the center area
> for maintenance, track cleaning, or re-railing a train, will be difficult/near impossible from the outside edges. If you can you might cut out the middle, turning it into a duck under access hatch. That would make it easy to reach any part of the railroad.


Pretty much agree on not putting things in the middle, and a trap door of sorts seems like a good idea for tough to reach spots. My current thinking is it would be some sort of low mountain that at least broke up the two sides. Or at least that's what I'd pretend given my lack of interest in scenery at this moment.



traction fan said:


> I don't understand your concern about grades. If the layout does hoist up to the ceiling, then the height of anything on it might matter a lot. If not, then you can build as high as you want. I can't give any intelligent advice without hearing more from you about your grade situation, and the answers to my questions.


I have about a foot and a half of clearance, so no concerns on height there, I'm more curious about where I would actually put the hill to climb up and over the tracks, and how much room that would need. My guess is I'd like to to be about 3.5" at the overpass, so trying to figure out how I would fit in the climb/descent portions.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Here's a thread about suspended layouts in a garage. Maybe
some of the discussion can be of help to you.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=26160&highlight=building+garage+layout

There is one or two other threads on the subject here on
the forum also.

You have two fantastic yards which is great. But for a good
switching operation you need industrial spurs. I would suggest
that you look into where you can put those. Keep in mind
that a 'team track' where 2 or 3 industries can go are
quite common. Be sure to include small industries that
could use rail services from time to time.

Don


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

As others have said, "wrong" is an overused term in this hobby. If it's what you want to do, and you're happy with it, then it's not wrong.

My first comment is on the reach issue. From the plan, it looks like you will be able to reach most of the actual track if you have access on all 4 sides. The problem, though, is that with a suspended layout, if you lean against it, it's going to move. That may cause some problems, depending on how you set up the hoist. Having a donut hole in the middle might save you effort on reaching the inside tracks and save weight, too.

If what you want to do with the layout is build trains in one yard, drive them to the other, then break them down and build others, then what you have will definitely work for you. If you want those trains to pick-up and deliver cargo, you need more spurs and less yard.

The other guys will tell you that I'm a big fan of scenic dividers. Especially if you're just moving trains from one side to the other, one may help to give you a better sense of real trains performing real work.

Just some thoughts...


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## kerz (May 25, 2015)

Thanks for all the input. Slowly getting to something that I like. The advice about reaching and more destinations were both good, and I've also changed it so there aren't two loops, but one large overlapping one. Update image attached if interested.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

I forgot about grades (what we railroaders call slopes). Whether yours will work or not depends on what you want to do. While in theory you can have any grade you want, our models tend to behave badly on steeper grades. Unless you're running all very short equipment (40 scale feet or less), keep it to 3% or less (and even 3 is pushing it for long equipment without an easement).

Grade is expressed as rise over run, so 1" of rise over 100" is 1%, 2" rise over 50" is 4%, and so on. To have adequate vertical clearance on the right side, you're going to need 3" elevation difference between tracks. That means 300" for a 1% grade (fuhgeddaboudit), or 150" for 2%, which you might be able to squeeze in. If you do go for 3%, consider an easement, that is, a couple of inches of track with a less severe slope at the top and bottom. 

Woodland Scenics makes a very nifty product which makes nice smooth grades a piece of cake. You can use either incline starters with risers or inclines; they come in 1% increments from 1 to 4%. Check them out at http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/Show/category/SubTerrainSystem/page/1

Hope that helps.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

My layout is flat, flat, flat. (except for the unlevel bad
craftsmanship that went into the supports). So I have
no judgement on grade changes, except it is very important
to observe the 'rules' on it.

Otherwise, I think you have a very interesting layout drawn
there. Lots of continuous running and lots of switching. I hardly
ever do much of the 'continuous running'. Usually the closest
to that is having a long freight going counter clockwise on my
single track main and the Santa Fe Desert Chief going clockwise.
That means, tho, that I have to pay close attention to timing and
turnout throws so that there is not a clandestine 'meeting' at
some dark corner of the layout. This is something you can do
with this layout if you are DCC. You do need 'passing sidings'
at strategic places tho. I have 3, each has a passenger station
on it.

Don


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## kerz (May 25, 2015)

Thanks again for the input. Made some more purchases to get started, I plan to get 4x8 sheets of styrofoam to mount on top of the plywood, but those are proving hard to come by in the SF bay area so far. Will be going all Peco at least to start, I really like the quality of their switches compared to atlas so far, but it will certainly be more work.


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## flyboy2610 (Jan 20, 2010)

When you say Styrofoam, I hope you don't mean the white beaded foam board. That stuff will not cut well and will make an incredible mess of little white electrostatically charged foam balls that will get all over everywhere and want to stay there!
What you want is extruded foam insulation board. 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Co...ared-Edge-Insulation-Sheathing-52DD/202085962

Lowe's carries the blue Dow product, IIRC.
If your local home improvement center doesn't have it in stock, they can order it for you. This stuff works great as an underlayment, and it's easy to carve to make rivers, stream, gullies, etc.


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## CTValleyRR (Jul 26, 2014)

The availability of extruded foam insulating panels seems to be spotty in the US. I can go anywhere near me and buy it any time, in 1, 2, or 3" thicknesses, but many (especially in the SE and West), report difficulty finding it.

Maybe it's just a terminology thing. At the lumber yard just down the road, if you ask for "extruded foam insulation panels" or "tempered hardboard", they look at you like you have 2 heads. Ask for Dowboarf or Masonite (both trademarked brand names), they're all over it, even if they're currently stocking a different brand.


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## kerz (May 25, 2015)

Yep, not the beaded stuff. So far no place has the pink or blue at least at HD/Lowes. Will keep digging!


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

kerz said:


> Yep, not the beaded stuff. So far no place has the pink or blue at least at HD/Lowes. Will keep digging!


Our home depot used to sell it. Now they list on their website as only being only sold in certain stores -- and you can't buy it on line and get them to ship it to your store if that store does not carry it themselves. I am guessing it is easier to get in the northeast and upper mid-west where insulation is more important.

This material is mostly used by contractors on new buildings, not by homeowners. Try locating contractors who specialize in new construction, and ask if they use it and where they get it.


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## MtRR75 (Nov 27, 2013)

I found this on Owens Corning's Website. Maybe they can help you find some.

http://www.foamular.com/foam/contact-us/


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