# Kato GG1 leading/trailing trucks derail like crazy!



## gimme30

Santy brought me a couple new engines this season and the GG1 is the first Kato I've ever had issues with. By itself it won't make it one lap around my little layout without either the front or rear truck derailing, almost always on turnouts and randomly elsewhere. Add one car and it does fine, mostly. More than one and it's great, as long as the engine is pointing in the right direction! I'm thinking the trucks are just too light but I don't see how I could add weight to them anywhere. 

Apparently no one else has this issue so I may be sol but any ideas would be appreciated!


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## gimme30

This is the other engine under the tree, man what a beauty! Btw, it takes two of these to pull what the GG1 will do all by itself!


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## QueenoftheGN

gimme30 said:


> Santy brought me a couple new engines this season and the GG1 is the first Kato I've ever had issues with. By itself it won't make it one lap around my little layout without either the front or rear truck derailing, almost always on turnouts and randomly elsewhere. Add one car and it does fine, mostly. More than one and it's great, as long as the engine is pointing in the right direction! I'm thinking the trucks are just too light but I don't see how I could add weight to them anywhere.
> 
> Apparently no one else has this issue so I may be sol but any ideas would be appreciated!




maybe your corners are to sharp as it is a big loco just a thought:dunno:


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## CTValleyRR

I agree. A GG1 is a long loco with exceptionally long trucks. It's not going to do well with tight curves and sharp turnouts. That would be my first guess if none of your other equipment has problems.


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## gimme30

Thank you gents! Could be you're right, contrary to what Kato claims on it's website: https://www.katousa.com/N/GG1/index.html

According to their info the GG1 _should_ be:
"Able to go through an 249mm (9 ¾”) radius S-Curve
Shock absorber construction gives even traction and performance, even on the roughest track."

I do have one short S-curve but it hasn't derailed there, (yet) and I suppose it could be that what I thought was perfectly laid track isn't so perfect after all.

With the exception of a tiny little Bachmann 4-4-0 that simply refuses to go over turnouts nothing else has this issue. I'd read a bunch of horror stories about how accurate N scale track needs to be so I spent an inordinate amount of time making sure it was right before gluing it down. This is my first layout so there's a very good chance I've done something wrong even though the track appears to be smooth as glass. 

The *really* odd thing is that it only does this when it's run by itself. Hook up a few cars and the problem goes away. 

Yeah I know..."Don't run it without any cars dummy!"


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## QueenoftheGN

gimme30 said:


> Thank you gents! Could be you're right, contrary to what Kato claims on it's website: https://www.katousa.com/N/GG1/index.html
> 
> According to their info the GG1 _should_ be:
> "Able to go through an 249mm (9 ¾”) radius S-Curve
> Shock absorber construction gives even traction and performance, even on the roughest track."
> 
> I do have one short S-curve but it hasn't derailed there, (yet) and I suppose it could be that what I thought was perfectly laid track isn't so perfect after all.
> 
> With the exception of a tiny little Bachmann 4-4-0 that simply refuses to go over turnouts nothing else has this issue. I'd read a bunch of horror stories about how accurate N scale track needs to be so I spent an inordinate amount of time making sure it was right before gluing it down. This is my first layout so there's a very good chance I've done something wrong even though the track appears to be smooth as glass.
> 
> *The really odd thing is that it only does this when it's run by itself. Hook up a few cars and the problem goes away.*
> 
> Yeah I know..."Don't run it without any cars dummy!"



huh, thats weird never heard of something like that, then again i only have to locos and they are both short! :laugh:


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## traction fan

*What brand of turnouts, and what radius curves?*



firescales22 said:


> maybe your corners are to sharp as it is a big loco just a thought:dunno:


gimme30; 

The drag on the GG1 may help stabilize things, sort of like a tail on a kite. This would be even more likely if the GG1 has it's couplers mounted on the end trucks. There would be just enough drag on the rear truck/coupler assembly to keep the truck centered and held down a little bit. If your little 4-4-0 won't make it through a turnout, it may be because you're using turnouts with plastic frogs. What brand, and rail code, of turnouts are you using? Also what is the minimum radius of the curves on your layout? 
Kato, and other manufacturers, can sometimes be "optimistic", to put it politely, about the radii their locos can get through. Key words being "can" & "get through". Words left out would be "or not." I found that my Kato 2-8-2 mikados, which were supposedly OK on an 11" radius curve, actually needed a 16" radius to reliably stay on the track.
This jolly little discovery required ripping up my 12" radius curves, which should have been quite OK, I thought, and replacing them with 16" curves. Surprise! 

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

PS. A tiny spring, fashioned from some .010" Dia. steel music wire, might help hold the end trucks down. Does the Kato GG1 have any springs on the end trucks now?


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## traction fan

*What brand of turnouts, and what radius curves?*



firescales22 said:


> maybe your corners are to sharp as it is a big loco just a thought:dunno:


 Sorry, duplicate post 

Traction Fan :smilie_auslachen:


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## gimme30

TF your kite analogy is spot on-with weight the rear truck stays on track, and with a car up front the leading truck will stay as well.

But one car on point with the rest behind just looks wrong!

In answer to your questions, (don't slap me, I know these are not your favorites!) I'm using Atlas code 80 snap track, #4 "custom line" turnouts, and yep it's mostly 9 3/4" radius curves. There are only 2 turnouts but to compound matters one of them is at the beginning of an incline. 

That 4-4-0 I mentioned is what I used to ensure a "reliable" track. The thing doesn't even have to be moving to fall off if you do more than look at it sideways.  Once it would blast around the track at full throttle (until hitting the plastic frogs anyway) I figured I was good to go.

And I have been, until the GG1 came along!

Yes each truck is sprung, the leading/trailing trucks being double-sprung due to the very thin, floppy plastic that attaches them to the driven trucks. I'll get a pic up later so that will make more sense. There's really nowhere to add weight. 
IMO they should have been made from metal, but I've done a lot of searching and have not run across a single complaint from anyone else having the same issue so I keep thinking it's got to be something else.

It's a shame, the pulling power this engine has is great but re-railing it every few feet is a PITA. (and it's not easy to get on the track to begin with!)


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## traction fan

*Snap Track and custom line in N-scale??*



gimme30 said:


> TF your kite analogy is spot on-with weight the rear truck stays on track, and with a car up front the leading truck will stay as well.
> 
> But one car on point with the rest behind just looks wrong!
> 
> In answer to your questions, (don't slap me, I know these are not your favorites!) I'm using Atlas code 80 snap track, #4 "custom line" turnouts, and yep it's mostly 9 3/4" radius curves. There are only 2 turnouts but to compound matters one of them is at the beginning of an incline.
> 
> That 4-4-0 I mentioned is what I used to ensure a "reliable" track. The thing doesn't even have to be moving to fall off if you do more than look at it sideways.  Once it would blast around the track at full throttle (until hitting the plastic frogs anyway) I figured I was good to go.
> 
> And I have been, until the GG1 came along!
> 
> Yes each truck is sprung, the leading/trailing trucks being double-sprung due to the very thin, floppy plastic that attaches them to the driven trucks. I'll get a pic up later so that will make more sense. There's really nowhere to add weight.
> IMO they should have been made from metal, but I've done a lot of searching and have not run across a single complaint from anyone else having the same issue so I keep thinking it's got to be something else.
> 
> It's a shame, the pulling power this engine has is great but re-railing it every few feet is a PITA. (and it's not easy to get on the track to begin with!)


gimme30;

"Snap Switches" and "Custom Line" are two completely different lines of turnouts made by Atlas. The custom line turnouts are much better than the Snap Switch turnouts. You get one guess as to which kind Atlas does NOT make in N-scale? Yes, what you actually have is really a #4 Snap Switch, the second-worst commercial turnout available. (Bachmann's EZ-Track turnouts just squeaked by to capture the highly-coveted "very worst" title!)

The good news is you only have two of these "wonders" (as in "I wonder who, or what, designed this ^%$#@ thing?, and/or "I wonder why I bought them?"
For your next turnouts I highly recommend Peco electrofrogs, or their new unifrogs. Both have metal frogs that can be powered, which will let your little 4-4-0 "test vehicle" make it through your turnouts.

On the GG1 issue, trying to get that big a locomotive to stay on 9-3/4" radius curves is somewhat akin to trying to make a U-turn with a semi in a phone booth! :laugh: Not terribly practical. Yes, it can probably be done, but it will always be borderline problematic. Have you checked the wheel gage on all the GG1's many wheels? Kato sometimes has their wheels a little tight.
If you have, or can get, more room, going to a larger radius curve will help. The bigger the better. Atlas makes code-80, 19"- radius sectional curved track pieces. If you can use them for your entire curve, great! If that's not practical then going to 11" radius sections with a 19" section at each end, to act as a crude "easement" is at least better than what you have now.

As for those errant front & rear trucks, can you add another spring, or substitute a stronger spring, for the original? If not, can you super glue a piece of lead underneath the truck, or on top of it? You might try winding solder around the axles in those trucks, as much as you can, without binding the wheels, or hitting the "precision crafted parts" of your "turnouts."  
Short of building your own brass truck, and gluing the plastic truck frames on the outside, (I've made bridges this way) that's all I can think of. 

If you are dedicated/stubborn enough to keep your Atlas turnouts, the first file below explains how to improve them. The second file explains a lot about turnouts in general.

BTW what are you using for catenary to power your GG1?:smilie_auslachen:

Regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment Improving Atlas turnouts pdf version.pdf


View attachment All AboutTurnouts rev 5.pdf


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## gimme30

Yup, you're right, they're not custom line. That may have been stuck in my head because...drum roll please....I bought another of these engineering marvels! In my defense, this was before I found this forum and no I wasn't drinking at the time.

Here's the exact unit:https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/atlas-n-2750-code-80-track-custom-left-hand-4-turnout/

The package _says_ it's "custom" in the top right corner but I'll be darned if I can tell the difference between it and the two that came in the track pack. 

It's intended use is more for continuity than actual function-in fact it may never get used at all-so it'll get installed despite it's flaws and I'll just lie and say it's a Peco if anyone asks. :laugh:

As for my test vehicle, that's more of a mechanical issue than it is power. As soon as the front truck hits the frog it stalls. You can see the front end dip and that's the end of any forward progress. Looks like this cowcatcher catches frogs! 
No big deal, that little engine can't pull more than one car up the inclines so it's been relegated to shelf duty.

I would like to be able to run the GG1 though. Just to clarify, the 12 driven wheels do not derail, just those pesky lightweight trucks at either end.
Speaking of...which end is the front?



> BTW what are you using for catenary to power your GG1?


Static electricity! Generated by the engineer scratching his head over why the darn thing won't get through turnouts!


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## GNfan

gimme30 said:


> Speaking of...which end is the front?


For real-world diesels, per some ICC or DOT regulation dating back to the early road switchers; the "front" of a locomotive must be identified by the letter "F". I've attached an example. I don't know about double-ended electrics.


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## GNfan

49 CFR § 229.11(a): "The letter “F” shall be legibly shown on each side of every locomotive near the end which for identification purposes will be known as the front end." In the days of center-cabs and high short hoods, it was seen as a safety issue - and it's still on the books.


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## GNfan

GNfan said:


> I don't know about double-ended electrics.


I can't find it on a pic of a GG1, but I have found a little "F" at the lower edge of the body above the leading truck on one end of GN 5019 - one of those big W-1 electrics GE made for GN about the same time as the GG1's.


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## traction fan

*Well played sir!*



gimme30 said:


> Yup, you're right, they're not custom line. That may have been stuck in my head because...drum roll please....I bought another of these engineering marvels! In my defense, this was before I found this forum and no I wasn't drinking at the time.
> 
> Here's the exact unit:https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/atlas-n-2750-code-80-track-custom-left-hand-4-turnout/
> 
> The package _says_ it's "custom" in the top right corner but I'll be darned if I can tell the difference between it and the two that came in the track pack.
> 
> It's intended use is more for continuity than actual function-in fact it may never get used at all-so it'll get installed despite it's flaws and I'll just lie and say it's a Peco if anyone asks. :laugh:
> 
> As for my test vehicle, that's more of a mechanical issue than it is power. As soon as the front truck hits the frog it stalls. You can see the front end dip and that's the end of any forward progress. Looks like this cowcatcher catches frogs!
> No big deal, that little engine can't pull more than one car up the inclines so it's been relegated to shelf duty.
> 
> I would like to be able to run the GG1 though. Just to clarify, the 12 driven wheels do not derail, just those pesky lightweight trucks at either end.
> Speaking of...which end is the front?
> 
> 
> 
> Static electricity! Generated by the engineer scratching his head over why the darn thing won't get through turnouts!




gimme30;

Either end can be the front. Long electric locomotives like the GG-1, GN fan's Class-W, and Milwaukee Road "Little Joes", Bipolars, Boxcabs,& "Quill Motors" were either too long to fit on some turntables, or just too long to turn conveniently on them. They were controllable from either end.
Later lengthy diesel cab unit consists (A-B-B-A for example) and even modern Amtrak, commuter lines, and some trolleys, (AKA "light rail vehicles") "push/pull" operations use the same basic idea. The loco, or entire train has controls at both ends, and so doesn't need to be turned. 

I love your "static electricity made by head scratching" response! :laugh: 

Yes, Atlas deceived you! That "custom N line" label is not unique. The statement at the bottom of the package is at least as bad too!
I've seen some HO-scale turnouts that are physically identical to "Snap Switches" but are labeled "Custom Line" on the package.

Atlas's real custom line turnouts (not available in N-scale) have no curved route like snap switches do. Instead, like all other brands of turnouts, they have two straight routes, that diverge from each other at the angle indicated by the frog number. They also have the frog number printed on the package, as in, "Atlas custom line #6 turnout." Atlas custom line turnouts do not have a switch machine included, which given the "quality" of the Atlas switch machine is probably a mercy.

The "cow catcher that catches frogs" * is a dramatic example of the "frog drop" built into nearly all commercial turnouts. It can be easily corrected by gluing plastic shims into the bottom of the frog until the new, shallower, depth of the frog matches the depth of the "flangeways" tab on an NMRA gage. While you're at it; check the width of the guard rail, and frog, flangeways too. It's made too wide, as well as too deep. The "too wide" part, especially on those guard rail flangeways, is a very common derailment cause.

This file explains the flangeway width issue further.

View attachment Improving Atlas turnouts pdf version.pdf



I just checked my own Pennsy GG1 and saw the spring arrangement on the pilot truck. The fact that the pilot trucks are attached to the main trucks presents some challenge but I'll work on it and see what I can come up with. 

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

After riding on an early American train, Mark Twain wrote that he felt the "cow catcher" might be better employed if mounted on the rear of the train. At the slow speed our train is making, there seems little chance of catching any cows; but at the back there is nothing to prevent them clambering aboard!" :laugh:


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## traction fan

*GG1 end trucks*

gimme30;

I partially disassembled my Kato GG1 yesterday and found that it is quite possible to replace the spring and add a tiny bit of weight, The truck just pulls off, straight down, and the spring comes off with it. By N-scale model standards, it's not that small a spring. You could replace it with a stronger one, or add a second Kato spring on top of the original. You just want to keep things reasonable in this area. Too much spring pressure at both ends, will tend to lift the loco slightly and reduce traction. So, those garage door countersprings you may have had in mind, after all your truck troubles, might be a bit extreme! :laugh: 

The beam that connects the two axles of the pilot truck is hollow on top and some "Low Temp" bismuth alloy could be poured into it. It would also be feasible to replace the plastic beam with a solid brass one, which would add more weight. 
Ithink your tight curves and Atlas turnouts are also part of the problem.

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

P.S. I tried making a brass chanel replacement for the pilot truck beam mentioned above. It had to be cut up so much to fit inside the truck that it wasn't really stronger, or heavier, than the Delrin plastic original, so not worth the effort.
I did manage to mount a Micro-Trains coupler in the pilot truck. It wasn't easy, but it is possible.
I suggest you pull one of the pilot trucks off your GG1 and replace the spring with something a little more powerful. You can also add the bismuth alloy weight stuff to the two small square open spots in the top of Kato's pilot truck beam. The weights will be small, but the stuff is heavy enough to make a difference that you can feel when you hold the truck in your hand.


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## gimme30

Traction you always go above and beyond. Thank you, again!

When I googled "bismuth alloy weight stuff" one of the top results was "How to entirely empty your bowels every morning (revealed)"

Gotta love the interwebs!

Anyway I took your advice and pulled things apart, and you're right about the various little spots weight can be added. Since I have no idea at what temperature the plastic might melt I don't know that I'll risk dumping molten metal all over the trucks. I shoot black powder on occasion so I have an abundance of lead balls I can cut into little pieces and glue into place. 
You were also right about the gauge spacing...the rear axle on the front pilot is just a hair tight.(IE the gauge will fit, but I've got to force it) The rest are within spec. Short of filing down the outside of the flange some I don't know how to correct that issue. 

I did try a stiffer spring with no luck. It may work better if I can stiffen up that floppy thin plastic beam, maybe tape a small length of bamboo skewer or the like to it...

Since I had the pilot trucks off I ran the little beastie and it handled my sharp curves fine at any speed in either direction. If it didn't look so wonky I'd just leave it like that!


Great Twain quote! One of my favorites: " Now is the accepted time to make your regular annual good resolutions. Next week you can begin paving hell with them as usual."


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## gimme30

GNfan said:


> I can't find it on a pic of a GG1, but I have found a little "F" at the lower edge of the body above the leading truck on one end of GN 5019 - one of those big W-1 electrics GE made for GN about the same time as the GG1's.


GN I've done a little poking around myself and can't find an "F" on any of the pics I've seen either. However several show the engine pulling various cars and in most of them what looks like a grill or vent of some sort (No idea what to call it but it's the L shaped thingy above the number) is oriented towards the front. Maybe that's the answer?


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## GNfan

I copied your photo into Paint, "blew it up" by a factor of 3, and look what I found!


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## QueenoftheGN

GNfan said:


> I copied your photo into Paint, "blew it up" by a factor of 3, and look what I found!


wow didnt even see that!


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## MichaelE

The front and rear of locomotives in German speaking countries is designated with the numerals 1 & 2. This is mostly for maintenance purposes as each end is identical to the other.


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## traction fan

*ulterior motive*



gimme30 said:


> Traction you always go above and beyond. Thank you, again!
> 
> When I googled "bismuth alloy weight stuff" one of the top results was "How to entirely empty your bowels every morning (revealed)"
> 
> Gotta love the interwebs!
> 
> Anyway I took your advice and pulled things apart, and you're right about the various little spots weight can be added. Since I have no idea at what temperature the plastic might melt I don't know that I'll risk dumping molten metal all over the trucks. I shoot black powder on occasion so I have an abundance of lead balls I can cut into little pieces and glue into place.
> You were also right about the gauge spacing...the rear axle on the front pilot is just a hair tight.(IE the gauge will fit, but I've got to force it) The rest are within spec. Short of filing down the outside of the flange some I don't know how to correct that issue.
> 
> I did try a stiffer spring with no luck. It may work better if I can stiffen up that floppy thin plastic beam, maybe tape a small length of bamboo skewer or the like to it...
> 
> Since I had the pilot trucks off I ran the little beastie and it handled my sharp curves fine at any speed in either direction. If it didn't look so wonky I'd just leave it like that!
> 
> 
> Great Twain quote! One of my favorites: " Now is the accepted time to make your regular annual good resolutions. Next week you can begin paving hell with them as usual."




gimme30;

My partial disassembly of my GG1 was not entirely altruistic, or exclusively for your benefit. I was curious about the construction of those pilot trucks that were giving you so much trouble. I have plans for my GG1 beyond running it as is. I bought this "unique to the Northeast corridor" locomotive for my model railroad set 3000 miles away in the Pacific Northwest because;

1) It has a very similar wheel arrangement to a Milwaukee Road "Quill Motor" electric locomotive. My "very long range" plan is to scratchbuild a brass Quill Motor body to fit onto the GG1 mechanism. Then I will add a two-wheel trailing truck which the Quill Motor had, and the GG1 doesn't.

2) It's made by Kato, which means it's excellent, and smooth-running. (except on 9-3/4" radius curves and Atlas #4 "turnouts" which you have, and I don't )

BTW If you want, or know of anyone that wants, a GG1 shell in brunswick "green" (nearly black) with gold lettering, let me know. 

Yes, the way that front truck is attached to that plastic arm probably makes adding a stronger spring useless. It's kind of like trying to lift a barbell while standing in a vat of peanut butter, you, (or the stronger spring) just don't have anything solid to push against.
I thought about removing that arm from the main truck, but I think one might have to remove the bottom from the main truck in order to do that. That bottom plate appears to be held on the main truck by four extremely teeny weeny little plastic hook/tab items which look like they would break off in a mild breeze, so I'm a little reluctant to delve that far in. If that long arm could be weighted, or sprung, that might help. 
Thanks to Google, I did find the answer to one of my other questions, how to get the shell off.
With Kato locos, this is often a mystery. They seem to feel that shell removal should be as challenging as opening one of those oriental puzzle boxes. Maybe they hired their designers from a puzzle box manufacturer, or maybe they're still pissed at us about Hiroshima. :cheeky4:
In any case, it seems each type of locomotive Kato sells has its shell attached differently, just for their amusement, at our expense.  The GG1 shell comes off if you insert four round toothpicks under the shell with one directly under each of the four front of cab side windows. 

Adjusting the gage of a pair of wheels on a axle is usually a simple matter of pulling the two wheels away from each other while twisting them in opposite directions.

Bismuth melts at a temperature lower than plastic. I heated a little metal off a large piece with a 30 Watt soldering iron, and let the drops of metal fall directly into the square hollows in the pilot truck frame. The plastic wasn't hurt a bit. Trying the same trick with solder, or lead, would melt the plastic. They melt at higher temperatures.

Good Luck, have fun;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

I was able to use another quote from Mark Twain at a family gathering years ago. A distant relative by marriage, named Jimmy is a layer, and as a prerequisite for that profession, also a jerk. While standing around slightly drunk, with his hands in his pockets, he introduced me as "Mike's brother, who is a bit funny." (A century earlier, Twain received a similar introduction from another lawyer, also standing around with his hands in his pockets. That lawyer called Twain "A humorist who is a bit funny." I adapted Twain's clever reply to my situation. "Ladies and gentlemen, we are doubly privileged here tonight. Not only do we have before us a humorist (brother) who is a bit funny, but also that rarest of all god's creatures, a lawyer with his hands in HIS OWN pockets!


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## gimme30

GNfan said:


> I copied your photo into Paint, "blew it up" by a factor of 3, and look what I found!


Good eye GN, mystery solved! 

Well, sorta.

Your discovery made me take a closer look at my little replica and lo and behold, there is indeed an F on one end....the end opposite the L shaped grill like thingy! (you can clearly see it in the first pic I posted. Can't believe I missed that, but as my wife would say I'm less than stellar at paying attention.)

Now that I know where to look I searched GG1's again and each has the F where you found it, EXCEPT for the Conrail Bicentennial! The mystery continues....











MichaelE said:


> The front and rear of locomotives in German speaking countries is designated with the numerals 1 & 2. This is mostly for maintenance purposes as each end is identical to the other.


That's a common sense solution that, well, makes sense! Especially over a single "F" that to the uninitiated could mean anything from front to fahrvergnugen! 
Btw you have an AMAZING layout-aside from the unique (to this side of the pond anyway) equipment the structures are beautiful as well-such style! Especially compared to what's available in N to replicate buildings found in the US. 

All we get are boxes with doors.:smilie_daumenneg:


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## gimme30

Traction Fan, of course I had to google the MR electric and quill motor and I sure hope you'll post the build when you do finally get around to it.

Solely for my benefit of course.

I found several variations, some looking very much like a GG1. Are you planning on something like this?









Good to know about bismuth's melting point, but since A: I can't find any locally and B:I'm impatient, I'll stick with cutting up my balls this time around. I've got the triangle-shaped holes on the outside of the frames filled and if I have time today will work on filling the rest. Hopefully it will add up enough to make a difference.



traction fan said:


> …….. or maybe they're still pissed at us about Hiroshima. :cheeky4:


Lol! Past time to let it go boys! Besides, we gave you McDonald's, what more do you want?

I have to admit that shell removal on pretty much every brand is a mystery to me but so far the "shove something in there and pry" method has worked out. I have noticed Kato shells are thinner than say Atlas, but made of a more forgiving or flexible material. Haven't broken one yet knock on wood.

Speaking of and completely off topic I recently spent hours putting Kato's light kits into the Super Chief passenger cars. 
12 to be exact, and after the first I was looking for a B-29 stocked with Little Boys. That was hands down the fiddliest most infuriating thing I've encountered so far. 
Noting but stick-on led's for this kid from now on.

Anyway...
You've managed to answer something else I've been wondering about, just exactly _how_ to adjust wheels. It sounds like they're simply pressed onto the axle? Same process for plastic wheels or does that require replacement?

As much as I like to quote Twain I find it's often a wasted effort. You get the deer-in-the-headlight look right before their eyes glaze over entirely. Which always puts me in mind of a quote from another funny guy, Will Rodgers...

"Never miss a good chance to shut up.":laugh:


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## traction fan

*Sounds rather extreme!*



gimme30 said:


> Traction Fan, of course I had to google the MR electric and quill motor and I sure hope you'll post the build when you do finally get around to it.
> 
> Solely for my benefit of course.
> 
> I found several variations, some looking very much like a GG1. Are you planning on something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know about bismuth's melting point, but since A: I can't find any locally and B:I'm impatient, I'll stick with cutting up my balls this time around. I've got the triangle-shaped holes on the outside of the frames filled and if I have time today will work on filling the rest. Hopefully it will add up enough to make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol! Past time to let it go boys! Besides, we gave you McDonald's, what more do you want?
> 
> I have to admit that shell removal on pretty much every brand is a mystery to me but so far the "shove something in there and pry" method has worked out. I have noticed Kato shells are thinner than say Atlas, but made of a more forgiving or flexible material. Haven't broken one yet knock on wood.
> 
> Speaking of and completely off topic I recently spent hours putting Kato's light kits into the Super Chief passenger cars.
> 12 to be exact, and after the first I was looking for a B-29 stocked with Little Boys. That was hands down the fiddliest most infuriating thing I've encountered so far.
> Noting but stick-on led's for this kid from now on.
> 
> Anyway...
> You've managed to answer something else I've been wondering about, just exactly _how_ to adjust wheels. It sounds like they're simply pressed onto the axle? Same process for plastic wheels or does that require replacement?
> 
> As much as I like to quote Twain I find it's often a wasted effort. You get the deer-in-the-headlight look right before their eyes glaze over entirely. Which always puts me in mind of a quote from another funny guy, Will Rodgers...
> 
> "Never miss a good chance to shut up.":laugh:



gimme30;

Yes, that's a Quill Motor in your photo, though it's a weird paint scheme I've never seen before. For most of their multi-decade service lives, Milwaukee's electrics were painted in a somewhat-less-than-dramatic paint scheme, based on steam locomotives, all black, with white lettering. (Ho Hum ) 
Late in their carriers, they were repainted in (gasp! ) colorful schemes. Milwaukee orange, black, and maroon first, and later Union Pacific armor yellow and harbor mist gray. 

If you ever need any bismuth (and who doesn't, now and then?  ) it's available through normal online hobby sources. "Lo Temp" is one trade name.

I know you're a dedicated model railroader, and that you really, really, really want those pilot trucks to stay on track, but cutting up your own balls, (as a sacrifice to the gods of model railroading?) does seem a bit extreme! 

Many model wheelsets are formed of metal, or plastic, wheels pressed onto a metal axle.
The metal-on-metal variety have insulating plastic hubs in the center of one, or both, wheels, to prevent short circuits. Some have steel axles which can be drawn in when close to a magnetic uncoupling ramp. Aftermarket replacements, and most high-end factory wheelsets, use brass, or other non-magnetic, axles.

Another variation, which is what I think is used on the Kato GG1, is to have metal wheels with short metal axles pressed into a plastic "main axle".( or "quill" very inside joke!) The metal axles are, 2 short 2 short 2  each other, but will allow enough movement to re-gage the wheels. There are also some all-plastic wheelsets, and these are usually one molded piece, which will not let the wheels be adjusted at all. What you get is what you get. Cheap toy-like wheelsets and Micro-Trains, not-so-cheap, and not toy-like at all, plastic wheelsets, fall into this category. Naturally, the Micro-Trains wheelsets are in perfect gage right from the factory. Not always true with other, cheaper, wheelsets though.

OK since we've switched to Will Rogers, here's one for you. "They tell me there's no fool like an old fool. I guess that's true, you just can't beat experience!" :laugh:

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## QueenoftheGN

gimme30 said:


> Traction Fan, of course I had to google the MR electric and quill motor and I sure hope you'll post the build when you do finally get around to it.
> 
> Solely for my benefit of course.
> 
> I found several variations, some looking very much like a GG1. Are you planning on something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know about bismuth's melting point, but since A: I can't find any locally and B:I'm impatient, I'll stick with cutting up my balls this time around. I've got the triangle-shaped holes on the outside of the frames filled and if I have time today will work on filling the rest. Hopefully it will add up enough to make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> *Lol! Past time to let it go boys! Besides, we gave you McDonald's, what more do you want?*
> 
> I have to admit that shell removal on pretty much every brand is a mystery to me but so far the "shove something in there and pry" method has worked out. I have noticed Kato shells are thinner than say Atlas, but made of a more forgiving or flexible material. Haven't broken one yet knock on wood.
> 
> Speaking of and completely off topic I recently spent hours putting Kato's light kits into the Super Chief passenger cars.
> 12 to be exact, and after the first I was looking for a B-29 stocked with Little Boys. That was hands down the fiddliest most infuriating thing I've encountered so far.
> Noting but stick-on led's for this kid from now on.
> 
> Anyway...
> You've managed to answer something else I've been wondering about, just exactly _how_ to adjust wheels. It sounds like they're simply pressed onto the axle? Same process for plastic wheels or does that require replacement?
> 
> As much as I like to quote Twain I find it's often a wasted effort. You get the deer-in-the-headlight look right before their eyes glaze over entirely. Which always puts me in mind of a quote from another funny guy, Will Rodgers...
> 
> "Never miss a good chance to shut up.":laugh:



¨what more could you want¨ this is very true


----------



## gimme30

Just a quick update, the weight helped. Mostly. I still get the occasional leading-truck-refuses-to-follow-the-damn-turnout derail but it's not happening anywhere else now. 
I think the fix in your excellent write up TF will probably solve the remaining issue but I won't have time to get to it for gawd knows how long-starting tomorrow I work every day until they can find a replacement for my sub. (long story)

I was about to say I still think it's odd that I'm apparently the only one who has had this issue but really, it's just my kind of luck. 
For example, my first love is riding. One hot summer day I was out in short sleeves, no jacket, and had a wasp fly up the sleeve and sting my armpit. That in itself isn't unusual, except that in my case the _very next day_ the same thing happened to the other arm!

I'm also the only fella I know of taken out by a turd, (on the track back in my racing days) that could only have come from a pterodactyl. Biggest. poop. ever. 



> I know you're a dedicated model railroader, and that you really, really, really want those pilot trucks to stay on track, but cutting up your own balls, (as a sacrifice to the gods of model railroading?) does seem a bit extreme!



You know, it sounded funny at the time but I was in a hurry...

And on that note I'll leave you with a quote from my future wife, Salma Hayek:

"I keep waiting to meet a man who has more balls than I do."


----------



## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> Just a quick update, the weight helped. Mostly. I still get the occasional leading-truck-refuses-to-follow-the-damn-turnout derail but it's not happening anywhere else now.
> I think the fix in your excellent write up TF will probably solve the remaining issue but I won't have time to get to it for gawd knows how long-starting tomorrow I work every day until they can find a replacement for my sub. (long story)
> 
> I was about to say I still think it's odd that I'm apparently the only one who has had this issue but really, it's just my kind of luck.
> For example, my first love is riding. One hot summer day I was out in short sleeves, no jacket, and had a wasp fly up the sleeve and sting my armpit. That in itself isn't unusual, (Really! Do you consider that a common occurrence?!  ) except that in my case the _very next day_ the same thing happened to the other arm!
> 
> :laugh: I don't remember the name of the "hard luck" character in the old comic strip "Li'l Abner" He was the one who walked through life with a black cloud, and personal lightning storm, perpetually over his head, but It sounds like you may be his descendant!
> 
> :laugh: Hilarious story to hear! :laugh:
> 
> Probably no fun at all to live through.
> 
> If you were really, really, cursed you would have fallen off your horse, broken an ankle, and had to use crutches!  (Think about it.)
> 
> Does your current wife know about you and Salma?
> 
> Country singers Garth Brooks, and Tricia Yearwood, are a married couple. When they perform together, He introduces her as "The love of my life." She introduces him as "My current husband!"



gimme30;

Please read between your lines above for my insightful comments.


----------



## gimme30

Your insightful comments cracked me up TF.

Yep, the bee-up-the-sleeve thing is pretty common, most of the riders I know have experienced that particular joy. Fortunately nothing larger, like a pigeon, (or the aforementioned pterodactyl) has flown up there yet but I suppose there's always the chance!
(visions of Hekyll and Jekyll imbedded in each pit comes to mind)

I had to googly lil abner as that was a bit before my time-the 'jinx' in question was Joe Btfsplk, a last name apparently meant to sound like a raspberry! I read a few dozen strips and they were hilarious! Andy Capp is quite the clever fellow so of course now I'm on the hunt for a comprehensive collection.

So yeah, thanks for helping me spend even MORE money.


----------



## traction fan

*Long-sleeved scuba suits?*



gimme30 said:


> Your insightful comments cracked me up TF.
> 
> Yep, the bee-up-the-sleeve thing is pretty common, most of the riders I know have experienced that particular joy. Fortunately nothing larger, like a pigeon, (or the aforementioned pterodactyl) has flown up there yet but I suppose there's always the chance!
> (visions of Hekyll and Jekyll imbedded in each pit comes to mind)
> 
> I had to googly lil abner as that was a bit before my time-the 'jinx' in question was Joe Btfsplk, a last name apparently meant to sound like a raspberry! I read a few dozen strips and they were hilarious! Andy Capp is quite the clever fellow so of course now I'm on the hunt for a comprehensive collection.
> 
> So yeah, thanks for helping me spend even MORE money.


gimme30;

Perhaps you equestrians should wear long sleeved scuba suits while riding in bee country! Wait a minute, considering my luck with flat tires on my "geezercycle" (a pedal-powered three-wheeler, with two big baskets to hold groceries and a big seat to hold my big butt.) rubber wont stop anything from penetrating. Maybe bees are the real reason those knights of old wore steel armor! :laugh: 
My most recent riding adventure (geezercycle, not horse) Was a trip to the local Costco store, which is mostly downhill from my house. There are some hills in between, so I get to ride up one side of them both coming, and going. Returning with a full load, I got the obligatory flat tire a few blocks (all uphill naturally!) from my house. Now I'm partially disabled. I have a nerve disorder in my lower spine which interferes with some of the muscle function in my feet. I can walk, but not very far, certainly not fast, and I look funny doing it!:hah:

To push a two-wheel bike you just walk beside it. Try that approach with a three-wheeler and you get hit in the back of your leg, every other step. The way to walk one of these beasts is to constantly lean it toward you with the far rear wheel off the ground. Then it's pretty much like walking a two wheel bike with a couple bags of concrete strapped to the far side, constantly trying to pull it over onto the side away from you!
So here's the 71 year old semi-disabled geezer trying to push about 100 pounds of combined tryke, watermelon, pineapple, and a host of other groceries up a hill that's about a 20-25 degree slope and no more than say "50 miles" long when you're said geezer pushing said heavily loaded tryke! 

A 20-something kid on a motorcycle stops next to me to say "Sir you have a flat tire." Now at this point, having pushed this %^^$#%* tryke a block-and-a-half uphill, while holding the wheel with the flat tire in the air, and while balancing half the weight of tryke+load, and hobbling along on two bad feet, while snails whizz by me in the fast lane, I'm reasonably well acquainted with the excruciatingly obvious fact that "I have a flat tire." I don't know if this guy is a no-helmet, road rash, brain concussion graduate, or just a "smart-donkey." (in family forum terms) So I respond "cheerfully" "I know,(dummy!) that's why I'm pushing it, instead of riding it! (Where's Bill Engvall when you need him?) 
He then says he lives nearby, and offers to pump up my tire. Being a guy, and not very bright, I say "no thanks, it's only a little further." Yeah! only a little further, like the Titanic is only a little wet!

Further up the endless hill, another guy offers the use of his air compressor. Having learned my lesson regarding "Pride going before a fall," I say "Yes, please, thankyou!", since any "pride" I may have foolishly felt was long gone, and I figured the consequent "fall" was imminent, and would likely include a full-on face plant into the concrete by the old fool pushing the tryke! :smilie_auslachen: 
I did make it home, riding one block, until the air gave out, and pushing another block, until I gave out.
I then put the groceries away, took a badly-needed pain pill, an equally needed hot shower, and collapsed for the rest of the day.hwell:

Meanwhile, back at the thread, have you "improved your Atlas turnout" yet? If so, did modifying the turnout help keep your GG1 from derailing on it? 

Always nice to hear from you;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## gimme30

TF, your reply popped up on my phone when you posted, but due to my schedule I haven't been able to respond until now.

Well, that's not entirely true.

I could have responded last night. Except that I was laughing so hard I couldn't see the screen or keyboard through the tears!

And how do you respond to something like that? On the one hand, you described it so well I could picture the whole ordeal and having to read it to the wife when she came up to see what was so funny just made it that much funnier.

On the other, I couldn't help but feel for an "old geezer" in such unfortunate circumstances, who's never been anything but a gentleman. I seriously wanted to smack the punk on the bike..

Anyway, I'm glad you survived to tell the tale!

As for the turnouts, nope, not yet. I'm off today and tomorrow and hoping I can spend time on them between honey-dos, but man that woman's got a long list for me this "weekend." 
I intend to spend as much time as possible trying to get out of them.

Back to Mr Twain, this quote is particularly apropos...

"It was on the 10th day of May - 1884 - that I confessed to age by mounting spectacles for the first time, and in the same hour I renewed my youth, to outward appearance, by mounting a bicycle for the first time. The spectacles stayed on."

Look familiar?:laugh:


----------



## traction fan

*Yes!*



gimme30 said:


> TF, your reply popped up on my phone when you posted, but due to my schedule I haven't been able to respond until now.
> 
> Well, that's not entirely true.
> 
> I could have responded last night. Except that I was laughing so hard I couldn't see the screen or keyboard through the tears!
> 
> And how do you respond to something like that? On the one hand, you described it so well I could picture the whole ordeal and having to read it to the wife when she came up to see what was so funny just made it that much funnier.
> 
> On the other, I couldn't help but feel for an "old geezer" in such unfortunate circumstances, who's never been anything but a gentleman. I seriously wanted to smack the punk on the bike..
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad you survived to tell the tale!
> 
> As for the turnouts, nope, not yet. I'm off today and tomorrow and hoping I can spend time on them between honey-dos, but man that woman's got a long list for me this "weekend."
> I intend to spend as much time as possible trying to get out of them.
> 
> Back to Mr Twain, this quote is particularly apropos...
> 
> "It was on the 10th day of May - 1884 - that I confessed to age by mounting spectacles for the first time, and in the same hour I renewed my youth, to outward appearance, by mounting a bicycle for the first time. The spectacles stayed on."
> 
> Look familiar?:laugh:




gimme30;

Yes! That slimy little bugger looks like one of those critters that went by me with heavy attitude about "Some old fart's slowing down traffic." I got the strong impression that they would have given me the finger, if they had actually had any fingers!
The "punk"kid on the motorbike didn't deserve a smack from you, or my own attitude. He was actually stopping to offer me help, as it turns out. I was just in such a miserable mood that I was upset by his brilliant observation that I had a flat tire. By the way, Costco by tryke again today and gloriosky the air stayed in all three tires!  

Actually I rode to Costco after "chair yoga" class at the local library. I've suggested they should change the class name to "Yoga for geezers," since, at 71, I'm one of the younger students, but they wouldn't do it. 
Stretching while sitting, is ideal for me since I can't balance worth diddly squat when I'm standing. Besides all the "ladies in their eighties" that make up 95% of the student "body" (in the sense of corpses that don't have sense enough to lie down yet.) Think I'm cute!  (Most of them don't see very well!  )
You know, that TV show is just fiction. If you want to see the real" living dead", just visit a senior center, or check out the government employees (I don't call them "government workers" that would be an oxymoron, and a room full minus the "moron" part) at the nearest government office!

One of the few TV shows I bother with anymore is called "Mom." If you haven't seen it yet the basic idea is making fun of the American traditional "mom and apple pie", "Beaver Cleaver's mom", etc, stereotype. The two generations of moms in this show are Bonnie, and her 40-something daughter, Christy. Both are ex drug addicts, ex smokers, ex petty criminals, ex pole dancers, and recovering alcoholics with plenty of attitude. In short not traditional TV moms! 

One recent line from that show particularly grabbed me because of my age. The support group of six women AA recovering alcoholics is hanging out at their favorite diner when Cristy comes in wearing a sweater that makes her look like she just wandered off from an elder care facility. One of her " supporters" asks her if she's just been shopping at "Forever Seventy-One." [Your wife can explain to you that there is a well-known (among women) chain of clothing stores called "Forever Twenty-One, Presumably patronised by women who saw their twenty-first birthday disappear in the rear view mirror many years ago, and want to dress like it has only recently been passed.] {UPDATE from my own wife. "Mostly young people shop at Forever 21. (She's 64 so her perception of "young" may be a bit skewed) However the implication is that I was wrong, yet again. Oh well, it's kept us together for 38 years! 

The "Painted Ladies" The famous San Francisco houses shown in the opening sequence of TV's "Full House", and that you built in HO-scale, are also available in N-scale. Happy gingerbread!  
I have started on scratchbuilding that brass body for a Milwaukee "Quill motor" that we talked about. I will try to take some pics later. All I've done so far is to transfer the window, and door, locations via careful scribe marks, from an N-scale reduction of a prototype builder's drawing, onto a sheet of brass. Last night I drilled all the window,and door openings. Then I filed, the openings out, on one side of the locomotive. Making square holes, with a file, out of the round holes I just drilled, lost it's fascination for me after a few hours. I may do the other side today.

You mentioned, jokingly, the possibility of me getting brain damage from my geezercycle journey. Actually I came close a few years back. I was trying to "walk" the dogs by holding their leashes on the handlebar of my tryke. (Very bad idea!) 
Here's what happened. 1) Dogs see cat off to the side of the road. 2) Dogs chase cat. 3) Handlebar & attached front wheel make instant 90 degree right turn. 4) Rider flys over handlebar. 5) Rider's head meets road. 6) Two nice neighbor ladies help me up & ask if I'm OK. 7) I say I am (I don't know it yet, but I'm not! 8) I ride home, sit down, and don't know if what just happened was real, or imaginary. 9) I go back and ask the ladies if it was real. 10) I call my wife (a nurse) and tell her about it. 11) She takes me to the hospital. 12) Doctor says I have a brain concussion and amnesia. I was wearing a helmet. If I hadn't been, I'd be dead, or a piece of "bed broccoli" in a care facility. Morals: a) Do wear helmet. b) If you have kids, MAKE them wear helmets! c) Don't walk dogs, and ride a bike at the same time. Dummy! :smilie_auslachen:

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## gimme30

Ya know, I don't shop at Costco since there's not one nearby, but King Soopers delivers. You might want to look into that.

I do completely agree with you about helmets, even though it ruins my image of you flying down a hill, feet off the pedals and legs sticking out to the sides in an attempt to build momentum. 

A few years ago I highsided my bike (the motorized variety) and wound up getting thrown straight up into the air and coming straight down on to my head and shoulder. The bike took a beating, it shattered the bones in my left thumb leaving it mostly useless, and I suffered a grade 3 AC separation. All bad enough but thankfully because of my helmet I didn't even get a headache.

The interesting thing about this is that up until about a year prior to the accident I _never_ wore a helmet on the street. 
On the track, yes, but in CO they're not required and I am most definitely a wind-in-the-hair kind of guy. Even though I've done many stupid things and gone down many times I never hurt the ol' noggin, but a transfer to a new work location accessed via the single most dangerous stretch of road I know of prompted me to make some concession to safety. 

I'm glad I did. Once those rocks fall out, you can't stuff them back in. Plus, our helmets look way cooler than the dorky things you pedal pushers are stuck with.

Can't say I've been pulled off a bicycle by a dog, not that I didn't try, but it was obvious from the start that big mastiff had no intention of doing anything *I* wanted to do.

Apparently I'm going to have to watch MOM. What's not to like about pole dancing criminal alcoholics? Besides, the wife listens to it and likes it as well....I generally avoid tv but I'll give that one a shot.

Speaking of shots, I checked Ebay and found exactly one used N scale painted lady, priced kinda high considering it looks like she was finger painted by a three year old. 
I may scrap the idea of conventional housing altogether and go with grass covered mounds, with tiny little round doors, and call the tiny little inhabitants Hobbits. Wonder if I could use a flocking machine to simulate hairy feet?

I do hope you'll consider doing a build thread on your Quill...I can't be the only one that would find that interesting. That's actually my favorite thing about online forums-I can't draw a straight line with a ruler but I can certainly appreciate the creativity and ingenuity of others! 
I don't know if you visit the O gauge section of this forum but Lee Willis recently built a vacuum car....with a vacuum! 
Pretty clever!

Finally, I did get a chance to work on the turnouts yesterday. Got one done but ran out of time before I could test it. Pretty easy fix now that I've actually done it, thanks to your instructions.:smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## traction fan

*Dorky? Dorky? You talkin to me?*



gimme30 said:


> Ya know, I don't shop at Costco since there's not one nearby, but King Soopers delivers. You might want to look into that.
> 
> I do completely agree with you about helmets, even though it ruins my image of you flying down a hill, feet off the pedals and legs sticking out to the sides in an attempt to build momentum.
> 
> A few years ago I highsided my bike (the motorized variety) and wound up getting thrown straight up into the air and coming straight down on to my head and shoulder. The bike took a beating, it shattered the bones in my left thumb leaving it mostly useless, and I suffered a grade 3 AC separation. All bad enough but thankfully because of my helmet I didn't even get a headache.
> 
> The interesting thing about this is that up until about a year prior to the accident I _never_ wore a helmet on the street.
> On the track, yes, but in CO they're not required and I am most definitely a wind-in-the-hair kind of guy. Even though I've done many stupid things and gone down many times I never hurt the ol' noggin, but a transfer to a new work location accessed via the single most dangerous stretch of road I know of prompted me to make some concession to safety.
> 
> I'm glad I did. Once those rocks fall out, you can't stuff them back in. Plus, our helmets look way cooler than the dorky things you pedal pushers are stuck with.
> 
> Can't say I've been pulled off a bicycle by a dog, not that I didn't try, but it was obvious from the start that big mastiff had no intention of doing anything *I* wanted to do.
> 
> Apparently I'm going to have to watch MOM. What's not to like about pole dancing criminal alcoholics? Besides, the wife listens to it and likes it as well....I generally avoid tv but I'll give that one a shot.
> 
> Speaking of shots, I checked Ebay and found exactly one used N scale painted lady, priced kinda high considering it looks like she was finger painted by a three year old.
> I may scrap the idea of conventional housing altogether and go with grass covered mounds, with tiny little round doors, and call the tiny little inhabitants Hobbits. Wonder if I could use a flocking machine to simulate hairy feet?
> 
> I do hope you'll consider doing a build thread on your Quill...I can't be the only one that would find that interesting. That's actually my favorite thing about online forums-I can't draw a straight line with a ruler but I can certainly appreciate the creativity and ingenuity of others!
> I don't know if you visit the O gauge section of this forum but Lee Willis recently built a vacuum car....with a vacuum!
> Pretty clever!
> 
> Finally, I did get a chance to work on the turnouts yesterday. Got one done but ran out of time before I could test it. Pretty easy fix now that I've actually done it, thanks to your instructions.:smilie_daumenpos:


gimme30; 

Dorky looking doesn't bother me. When you get to my age, just about everything looks dorky, but the compensatory flip side is you are no longer trying to impress anybody with your looks, which would be hopeless anyway! :laugh: 
It's actually cool, & very liberating, to just do whatever you want, without caring if anyone else thinks you look silly doing it. What you are/aren't still able to DO is another matter! 

Besides that, you gas burning, pollution spewing, suicidal, motorbike guys only have head-enclosing, heavier, helmets to keep the air inside your heads from escaping into the atmosphere, and dragging the collective public IQ down to your level! 
Though I enjoy, and appreciate, looking at beautiful sunsets & scenery, cute kids, gorgeous women, etc. I don't care as much about how something, or someone, looks as how well it works, or how interesting & intelligent they are.
My helmet kept me alive, and functional, after falling off my bike, and that's all it was designed for, not to be some ridiculous type of fashion statement. California does have a bicycle helmet law but, absurdly, it only applies to kids! As if an adult couldn't have their brain turned into scrambled eggs by pounding it into something solid. Many times I see family groups cycling with the kids dutifully wearing helmets and their parents not. I guess, as the song says, "I believe the children are our future", and the adults are already way beyond help! :smokin:

The N-scale "painted ladies" houses I have were sold by IHC (International Hobby Corp.) You might check for that company online. Also look on www.walthers.com 

When I get some photos of the quill project I will start a thread with them.

Did modifying your turnout help? Does your GG1 finally make it through the Atlas "obstacle course" with all wheels still on the rails?
I received some Peco Unifrogs yesterday. Very nice turnouts! Even though they work very well out of the box, I'm going to add some of the same basic styrene shim modifications to them that you just did on your Atlas, just to make the passage of wheels through their frogs super-smooth.
These turnouts will be used in a hidden staging yard, and I want them to be as perfect as I can make them in that unseen & harder to reach location.
I very much like the design of the Unifrog. They are DCC friendly, and have the option of powering the isolated frog. Peco even included a path for the frog power wire through the underside of one the ties, out to the end of that tie. That should save a lot of hassle in lining up the hole for the frog wire to get under the table. Nice touch Peco!
I was a bit disappointed that they did not have all-metal frogs. However, the overlapping rail arrangement Peco uses should assure constant power for a wheel passing through the frog.
If not, I'll just pour molten metal (bismuth) into my brand new $20 Pecos! :laugh: NOTE: I may practice this possibly risky procedure on one of my leftover P.O.S. Atlas Snap Switches. Yes, I'll admit, I have, actually "been there and done that!" It's how I formed my less-than-glowing opinion of the things! 

If "King Soopers" is a "Meals on Wheels" clone that delivers straw-feedable meals to "slurping shut-in dinosaurs" , I'm not there quite yet! :cheeky4:

If it's one of those high-priced grocery delivery services, I probably can't afford it, and I wouldn't want it anyway.

I actually enjoy riding my geezercycle (though pushing it, fully-loaded, uphill, is absolutely no fun at all!)
Riding it is also good exercise for an old guy who can no longer run at all, or even walk all that well. 
If all other transportation options fail, I do have my "Official California Resident "green card" ID, a valid driver's licence, and a minivan to drive. (appearances, appearances, we don't need no stinking appearances! We be old!)

Like the, "old man dying of the black plague" character in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" (best movie EVER!) " I'm not dead yet! I feel much better. I think I'll go out for a walk." 

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## gimme30

> Besides that, you gas burning, pollution spewing, suicidal, motorbike guys only have head-enclosing, heavier, helmets to keep the air inside your heads from escaping into the atmosphere, and dragging the collective public IQ down to your level!


Hey, I resemble that remark!:laugh:


Besides, there's rocks in my head....I let them dribble out onto the road so trike riding geezers can pretend they're moto crossing.

Anyhoo I finished shimming the 2nd turnout and ran the GG1 around it with NO derailments whatsoever. By itself mind you, no drag-adding cars required. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I have to admit it seemed like a long shot but it works, so anyone else using the same high quality equipment should take a look at TF's "improving atlas turnouts" pdf. (When he says POS turnouts, he means Positively Orgasmic Switches)

Haven't tried the 4-4-0 on them yet but I suspect even with the mods that's gonna be a no go. 

IHC is still in business to my surprise and does have a website, but no N scale structures unfortunately. Still, nice to see they're still around.

King Soopers is just a regular ol' grocery store for regular ol' folks, but like everyone else they're trying to compete by offering delivery. Remember when the only food you could get delivered was pizza? Now they'll bring your "Almondmilk honey flat white w/Starbucks blonde espresso" straight to your trendy little mouth!


----------



## clovissangrail01

Von's will deliver everything you need to make a white Russian -- vodka, kahlua, and lactose-free milk for us geezers -- for only a $4.95 service fee.

It's even a better deal if you throw in some actual food.


----------



## traction fan

*Next step, eliminating "frog drop?"*



gimme30 said:


> Hey, I resemble that remark!:laugh:
> 
> 
> Besides, there's rocks in my head....I let them dribble out onto the road so trike riding geezers can pretend they're moto crossing.
> 
> Anyhoo I finished shimming the 2nd turnout and ran the GG1 around it with NO derailments whatsoever. By itself mind you, no drag-adding cars required. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I have to admit it seemed like a long shot but it works, so anyone else using the same high quality equipment should take a look at TF's "improving atlas turnouts" pdf. (When he says POS turnouts, he means Positively Orgasmic Switches)
> 
> Haven't tried the 4-4-0 on them yet but I suspect even with the mods that's gonna be a no go.
> 
> IHC is still in business to my surprise and does have a website, but no N scale structures unfortunately. Still, nice to see they're still around.
> 
> King Soopers is just a regular ol' grocery store for regular ol' folks, but like everyone else they're trying to compete by offering delivery. Remember when the only food you could get delivered was pizza? Now they'll bring your "Almond Milk honey flat white w/Starbucks blonde espresso" straight to your trendy little mouth!



gimme30;

Amazing how that works huh! Just follow the directions, and derailments go down! Now that you have experience working with turnouts, you may want to try the next step. Or not, your choice. When car wheels go through a frog they often drop into the frog, and then are pulled back up when the wheel hits the frog point. This usually does not cause derailments, unless your train is traveling a lot faster than it should be. What it does cause is an annoying jerky motion by the cars. They bounce up and down and sway side to side because of what the wheels under them are doing. 
Many modelers, (including me, when I was young and ignorant, instead of old and senile. :smilie_auslachen have tried to "cure" this problem by filing down the frog, or at least filing the frog point down at an angle, to make it easier for the wheels to climb back up to normal rail-top level. This missguided procedure not only won't actually fix anything, but it can do serious damage. 
Take the common Atlas Snap Switch as an example. It has a black plastic frog. Directly under the plastic are the tops of the two short rails that run out from the frog. These two rails have opposite electrical polarity. By filing away any of the insulating plastic you make it more likely for a wheel to short across the two rails. The old "nail polish fix" was invented to cure this same short, when the plastic had worn away. Why accelerate the wearing process by filing away plastic?

Also the problem is not really, how to get the wheels back up, but rather, how to prevent them from dropping down in the first place.
Doing that will prevent "frog drop" altogether and the cars will pass through the turnout frogs very smoothly. No more bounce, or sway, by the cars. If you want bounce and sway just look at model/actress Sofia Vergara on the TV show "Modern Family." She exhibits plenty of both! :laugh:

Fortunately, it's quite easy to eliminate "frog drop."
Like what you just did to eliminate derailing wheels, (shimming the guard rails) frog drop can be eliminated by shimming too. Only this time by shimming the floor of the frog upward.
I glue styrene strips in both frog flangeways, filling them up completely, just above rail height. One of the styrene strips should be tapered to fit snugly against the other so that the entire frog is full. Side-to-side & bottom-to-top. Use a generous amount of styrene cement to glue everything together into one solid block for a frog. IMPORTANT: Let the glue DRY OVERNIGHT. Styrene cement is normally fast-acting but we want the newly-filled up frog to be one hard, solid, piece, before taking the next step.
The next day, gently file the styrene strip fillers down even with the rail tops. Be careful not to file away any of the frog's original black plastic!
Now use the "flangeways" tabs on one side of your NMRA gauge. Put one tab in either of the guardrail flangeways you have just narrowed. The other tab should be on top of the filled-in frog. Gently drag that tab along the top of the frog and scrape a shallow mark along the top of the frog with the tab. Now shift the gauge over to the other guardrail flangeway and the opposite side of the frog. Gently scrape another shallow mark along the top of that side of the frog. Now keep making repeated passes with the gauge until you have gradually carved out two new flangeways in the frog. These new flangeways should be only as deep as the tab can reach. In other words, you want the new flangeways to be exactly the same width, and exactly the same depth, as the tab. It should just fit, and slide through ,freely when you're done. As a matter of fact, you are done!
Now roll a car with properly-gauged, non-pizza cutter, wheels through the turnout. You will be pleasantly shocked at how smooth passage through that (formerly POS) turnout just became.

Regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## gimme30

Thanks TF I'll give that a go! Do you see any problem using balsa rather than multiple strips of plastic? (Just thinking I could cut a block to size before gluing in to speed up the process a little)


----------



## traction fan

*Yes*



gimme30 said:


> Thanks TF I'll give that a go! Do you see any problem using balsa rather than multiple strips of plastic? (Just thinking I could cut a block to size before gluing in to speed up the process a little)


gimme30;

Yes there are some potential problems. First balsa won't stick to the plastic frog of your turnout, unless you use super glue. Liquid super glue loves to wander in where it's not wanted, like the formerly moving parts of your former turnout. In fact super glue can quite easily convert your former turnout into a 5" piece of straight track, or a 19" radius piece of curved track. With your luck, the points will stick somewhere in between routes, converting your former derailer, now finally functional turnout, back into a derailer! :laugh:

You may also discover that you "have become very attached" to your former turnout, since super glue's greatest superpower is permanently bonding human skin. 
You might think, OK, you cantankerous old Yoda wannabe, I'll use GEL super glue, cause it won't run all over as much, so there! You are correct Luke Bikewalker, but when fully cured, gel super glue is way too hard to carve flangways into, using your NMRA gauge. You'd need to use a Dremel, and cutting flangeway trenches the exact width, and exact depth, of a "flangeways" tab with a high speed, cuts right through anything in no time, power tool may be a little beyond your present, newbie, skill level. I've been in this hobby over half a century, and I darn well know it's way beyond my skill level. (subtle hint, don't do it.)
Likewise carving a block of balsa to the right 'V' shape to fit and fill the exact inside dimensions of the frog, won't be any picnic either. In fact, it will be so unlike a picnic, even the ants won't show up! Especially when they find out there's a frog involved! 

I would definitely use styrene, not balsa. You can get styrene strip material in many sizes. You should be able to find one that will fill the frog flangeways on an Atlas turnout. Or, You could just use the styrene you have and build up the floor, one strip at a time , until the bottom of your NMRA gauge's "flangeways" tab just touches the newly raised frog floor. Either method will work. If you use the layered strip method, you can cement in all the necessary layers in one session, and then wait overnight only once. The gauge should then slide through the frog and guardrail flangeways without binding. Wheels will also pass through very smoothly, with no vertical bounce, or horizontal sway, from the cars.

regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


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## gimme30

Hmm, ok, no balsa, no Dremel. 
Shame, since it's always fun dodging hi speed chunks of cutting wheels when they decide to fragment themselves.

However....

I may be tearing the whole section out and starting over. I never liked where the track plan placed the turnouts, but not knowing any better I went ahead and followed it to the letter.:rippedhand:
Turns out a turnout at the end of a sharp corner, or start of an incline, is a bad thing, even when you're using exquisitely engineered technical marvels made all the better with a few TF tweaks.

That'll set me back a bit time-wise, and goes against my "I'm gonna use what came in the box instead of buying more stuff" rule. 

Decisions, decisions....


----------



## CTValleyRR

gimme30 said:


> Hmm, ok, no balsa, no Dremel.
> Shame, since it's always fun dodging hi speed chunks of cutting wheels when they decide to fragment themselves.
> 
> However....
> 
> I may be tearing the whole section out and starting over. I never liked where the track plan placed the turnouts, but not knowing any better I went ahead and followed it to the letter.:rippedhand:
> Turns out a turnout at the end of a sharp corner, or start of an incline, is a bad thing, even when you're using exquisitely engineered technical marvels made all the better with a few TF tweaks.
> 
> That'll set me back a bit time-wise, and goes against my "I'm gonna use what came in the box instead of buying more stuff" rule.
> 
> Decisions, decisions....


Many "canned" layout plans were never actually built by their designers, and a lot of them contain problems like this. Sure, the track fits together, but...

Was the incline in the original, or did you add it?


----------



## traction fan

*Better, non-shrapnel, dremel wheels*



gimme30 said:


> Hmm, ok, no balsa, no Dremel.
> Shame, since it's always fun dodging hi speed chunks of cutting wheels when they decide to fragment themselves.
> 
> However....
> 
> I may be tearing the whole section out and starting over. I never liked where the track plan placed the turnouts, but not knowing any better I went ahead and followed it to the letter.:rippedhand:
> Turns out a turnout at the end of a sharp corner, or start of an incline, is a bad thing, even when you're using exquisitely engineered technical marvels made all the better with a few TF tweaks.
> 
> That'll set me back a bit time-wise, and goes against my "I'm gonna use what came in the box instead of buying more stuff" rule.
> 
> Decisions, decisions....




gimme30;

I haven't used an actual Dremel brand cutting wheel in years. I had no luck with them and broke them all too often! 
Harbor Freight ( www.harborfreight.com ) to the rescue!
They sell solid steel core, diamond coated, unbreakable, cutting wheels! You can wear them out, (the diamond dust coating wears off eventually.) However it is all but impossible to break one. I catch myself brushing/hitting the wheel against something all too often. with the old (Dremel) wheels this was a guaranteed broken wheel every time! Using the Harbor Freight wheels, no breakage, ever.
The one caution is to carefully center the wheel when installing it. The HF wheels have a slightly larger center hole than the Dremel ones. You can get an arbor with a larger diameter screw, that eliminates the eyeball centering.
An off center wheel causes serious vibration of the wheel and the whole tool. This makes it loads of fun trying to line up a critical cut!  Sort of like trying to accurately aim a long range rifle shot while riding a bucking bronco! :laugh:

You don't necessarily need to buy Peco turnouts, since your Atlas ones are working so well.
The remaining weak links in the overall "Atlas turnout owner's experience," are the weak switch machine, the prone-to-short-circuits blue button control, and the lack of a powered metal frog. None is a real deal breaker, except perhaps for your 4-4-0. That little guy would benefit from a powered frog. If it's like the Bachmann "Jupiter" 4-4-0 I have, the pilot truck does not pick up power at all, and one set of drivers has traction tires. That means only one wheelset picks up power, and that's not enough to get through a plastic turnout frog.

The new Peco unifrogs are very nice. They come DCC friendly, have the option of powering the frog, and have Peco's well-known reliability and rugged construction. I recently bought four of them at www.modeltrainstuff.com for $20 ea. That's a good retail price for brand new Pecos.

On the down side, Peco has a weird notion of what constitutes code 55 rail. Their "code 55" turnout actually has code 78 rail, with some of it buried in the plastic tie strip. That wouldn't be so bad, except they made their rail with two rail bases. This will work fine connecting to code 80 rail, but is a royal PITA for people like me, who use real code 55 track (in my case, Micro Engineering) I had to take a Dremel to my brand new, premium quality, Peco turnouts in order to connect their "code 55" turnouts to some real code 55 track!
Bad form Peco, very bad form! Report you skinny backside to the headmaster's office for a good sound whipping! If they'd only had sense enough to cut a slt in the end of the rail, right below the code 55 rail base, the problem would have been eliminated. I started a thread about this issue, on the "General Model Train Discussion" section. You might want to look at it.There's a photo of the strange rail.

The considerably-less-than-splendid-quality, Atlas twin-coil switch machine will work better using a capacitive discharge unit like the one built into the Stapleton 751D turnout controller, That controller is also a vast improvement over the Atlas blue button POS control that comes with the turnout. It won't melt the coils in the switch machine, which a shorted blue button, and lingering human fingers, have done more than once, a lot more.
It's also a good idea to lightly glue, or "plastic weld",(with a soldering iron) the lids to the rest of this wonderous Atlas switch machine. I've had several of them actually shake themselves to pieces because the top was not fastened to the bottom very well! 

Yes, placement of turnouts can be critical. Incorporating one into a curve is OK, as long as you understand that the curvature built into an Atlas N-scale "Snap Switch" is 19" radius. Were you to put a 19" R. curved section on either side of the curved route of your turnout, that would work fine. The 19" radius curve of the turnout can also serve as a simple form of "easement" into a tighter curve.
BTW, if you're starting over, and have the room, you might go to a larger curve radius. Even 11" radius is an improvement over 9-3/4" radius.

As for turnouts at the bottom, top, or anywhere in between, on a grade, that may be more challenge than you should bite off right now. It's never a really good idea, although it can be done, but it's a bad practice in general, and a major PITA to construct, and maintain. (subtle hint, you're right, don't do it.)

Regards;

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:


----------



## gimme30

CTValleyRR said:


> Many "canned" layout plans were never actually built by their designers, and a lot of them contain problems like this. Sure, the track fits together, but...
> 
> Was the incline in the original, or did you add it?


Yep, the incline was in the original plan, but I don't know if it was by coincidence or design that the end of the turn out landed right there. As you alluded to, it took some fiddling to get the whole track laid according to plan...following it exactly wouldn't work at all, especially since they made a mistake requiring the use of a particular length of track that wouldn't fit! Because I had to fudge that area it could be my fault the turnout wound up where it did. Anyway I tried to smooth out the transition with plaster filler but that just made things worse, so for now I've cut the track free from the roadbed and stuffed a shim in there-it works, but I know it isn't "right." 

I sure hate to start over though.....seems like this whole experience has been one step forward two steps back the entire way!

The second turnout, at the end of a curve (traveling counter-clockwise) isn't as much of an issue as long as I'm not trying to break any speed records. Otherwise inertia wreaks all kinds of havoc. There's no practical reason for it being placed where it is but again, in my ignorance I blindly followed the instructions thinking surely Woodland Scenics knew what they were doing, any issues _had _to be mistakes _I _made!

Live and learn.🤪

TF I'd love to go to a wider radius but there just isn't room! The turnout in question is coming off an 11" curve, it just would have made more sense to have at least a short straight there instead. It'd be simple enough to swap things around but since the other turnout is at the opposite end of the same section it may be better to start over-but not yet! If I can jerry-rig it I will.

I have plenty of duct tape.🙈


----------



## MichaelE

The Dremel light duty cut-off wheels are indeed fragile. I broke many while laying track for my layout. I stocked up beforehand knowing how fragile they are. 

When finished using it for the day I would always hang the tool up by the attached loop to keep that disc from touching anything until I used it again.

They do fly apart and I always have safety glasses on while using a cut-off disc or wheel of any kind.


----------



## CTValleyRR

They are fragile, but if I'm patient and let the tool do the work rather than bearing down, I can usually wear them away before they break. I still wouldn't dream of using one without safety glasses (all it takes is one object pinging off your lenses with intense force and you are forever a fan!).


----------



## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> Yep, the incline was in the original plan, but I don't know if it was by coincidence or design that the end of the turn out landed right there. As you alluded to, it took some fiddling to get the whole track laid according to plan...following it exactly wouldn't work at all, especially since they made a mistake requiring the use of a particular length of track that wouldn't fit! Because I had to fudge that area it could be my fault the turnout wound up where it did. Anyway I tried to smooth out the transition with plaster filler but that just made things worse, so for now I've cut the track free from the roadbed and stuffed a shim in there-it works, but I know it isn't "right."
> 
> I sure hate to start over though.....seems like this whole experience has been one step forward two steps back the entire way!
> 
> The second turnout, at the end of a curve (traveling counter-clockwise) isn't as much of an issue as long as I'm not trying to break any speed records. Otherwise inertia wreaks all kinds of havoc. There's no practical reason for it being placed where it is but again, in my ignorance I blindly followed the instructions thinking surely Woodland Scenics knew what they were doing, any issues _had _to be mistakes _I _made!
> 
> Live and learn.🤪
> 
> TF I'd love to go to a wider radius but there just isn't room! The turnout in question is coming off an 11" curve, it just would have made more sense to have at least a short straight there instead. It'd be simple enough to swap things around but since the other turnout is at the opposite end of the same section it may be better to start over-but not yet! If I can jerry-rig it I will.
> 
> I have plenty of duct tape.🙈


gimme30;

Does the 11" curve feed into the straight route of your Atlas turnout or the curved route? If it feeds into the straight route, that's not bad. If it feeds into the curved route, that's OK too. The 19" curve in the turnout will just act as a form of easement for the tighter 11" curve. Is there any way you can post your track plan? I'd like to look at it and see if I can suggest any improvements.

Regards;

Traction Fan 😊


----------



## gimme30

There ya go, not much to it!

The incline starts on the right side where turnout 20-202 meets curve 20-160, increasing in the counter-clockwise direction. 20-200 at the top left of the loop is the area I had to fudge-This pic shows a single straight but the kit instructions called for three 1 1/4" pieces and one 5" piece, and those are what was included. They wouldn't fit, in any combination, so I had to cut a straight piece to use as filler elsewhere.


----------



## clovissangrail01

That's the Scenic Ridge, isn't it?

That's a tight little booger. (Am I allowed to say 'booger'?

Can you add a short straight piece between the lower right curve and the turnout to smooth the transition between the tight curve and the turnout?


----------



## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> View attachment 539785
> 
> There ya go, not much to it!
> 
> The incline starts on the right side where turnout 20-202 meets curve 20-160, increasing in the counter-clockwise direction. 20-200 at the top left of the loop is the area I had to fudge-This pic shows a single straight but the kit instructions called for three 1 1/4" pieces and one 5" piece, and those are what was included. They wouldn't fit, in any combination, so I had to cut a straight piece to use as filler elsewhere.


gimme30


----------



## traction fan

gimme30;

The right end of the passing siding, the same area you're describing, contains a reverse curve. Reverse curves are bad things to have in any track plan. They can cause derailments occasionally. Sometimes they're unavoidable, as in a crossover that uses two Atlas snap switches, like the one to the immediately left of the area you described. Because Atlas snap switch turnouts they have curved routes, which will be back-to-back, the train curve first one way and then the other as it passes through the crossover. Back to your described area. The reverse curve in that area only come into play when the turnout is set for the siding,m using the turnout's curved route. That route contains a curve that is the opposite direction from the 11" r. curve in the main line.
If it is set for the straight, mainline route, then you have one simple curve feeding into straight track, which is fine. The same reverse curve scenario is repeated on the left end of that same passing siding.
Fortunately, these two potential problem areas are easy to eliminate by switching the turnouts used on the left and replacing them with the turnouts from the right. In both cases, use the curved route of the newly swapped turnout to connect to the mainline curve. That means that if the train goes into the siding, from either end, it will travel from 11 curve into a piece of "straight track"( the straight route of the turnout) 
If the train stays on the mainline, it travels from an 11"r curve into a 19"r curve (in the turnout) these curves will both be in the same direction, so no reverse curve! The 19"r curve in the turnout will also act as an easement into the 11"r mainline curve. Win win! If/when you start over, and if you decide to keep using your Atlas turnouts, then I would use this arrangement wherever possible. Other brands of turnouts don't have a curved route* just two straight routes, so this arrangement of curves won't apply.

Good luck, have fun;

Traction Fan 😊 

* The exception to the "no curved route" statement is, of course a curved turnout, which has two curved routes and no straight route.


----------



## gimme30

To quote Charlie Brown...."AUUUUUUUGGGHH!!" 
Why in the world wouldn't Woodland Scenics know better than to include something like that in a track plan? Haven't they been around forever? 

Jeez louise. 

Never mind, I'm done dinking around with track. As the fellow in my avatar would say, a man's got to know his limitations, and I hit mine months ago. Honestly that siding won't get used anyway-I've got an extra 10"-12" on the right side of the plan where Dr. Mort's (Dr. Mort's Creepy Carnival Halloween Train Set - Rel. 10/16) is going to sit idle near a makeshift carnival, never to move....ever...again...bwhahahahaha! 

Besides I'm sick of looking at all the white and need to get to makin' mountains. 

Speaking of landscaping, anyone know where I might find N scale alligators or crocs?


----------



## CTValleyRR

gimme30 said:


> To quote Charlie Brown...."AUUUUUUUGGGHH!!"
> Why in the world wouldn't Woodland Scenics know better than to include something like that in a track plan? Haven't they been around forever?
> 
> Jeez louise.


These canned track plans are often terrible designs. They basically turn some graphic designer (who may not have the foggiest idea how to actually build a layout) loose on layout planning software and have him crank out a bunch of designs. Many of them have unworkable track arrangements, unreasonably steep inclines, and too much track crammed into tight spaces.

These layouts are primarily marketing tools, intended to sell track, or in Woodland Scenics' case, scenery materials and layout supplies. 

That's why so many of us push newcomers to design their own.


----------



## gimme30

I'm sure you're right CT, but most likely if I were left to my own devices I'd have probably come up with something even more convoluted!
Oh well, lesson learned. With TF's fixes even my finicky Aerotrain makes it around alright, so I'm trying to concentrate on landscaping. 

Which is turning out to be more difficult than I thought.

For whatever reason I just can't picture in my head what I want to do. I've tried drawing it out, but don't get very fart that way since I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I've resorted to trying to mock up something using balled up paper.

How do you guys deal with that? Do you have a vision in mind that easily translates to reality or is it trial and error for you too?


----------



## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> I'm sure you're right CT, but most likely if I were left to my own devices I'd have probably come up with something even more convoluted!
> Oh well, lesson learned. With TF's fixes even my finicky Aerotrain makes it around alright, so I'm trying to concentrate on landscaping.
> 
> Which is turning out to be more difficult than I thought.
> 
> For whatever reason I just can't picture in my head what I want to do. I've tried drawing it out, but don't get very fart that way since I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I've resorted to trying to mock up something using balled up paper.
> 
> How do you guys deal with that? Do you have a vision in mind that easily translates to reality or is it trial and error for you too?


gimme30;

It's so good to hear from somebody with an actual model railroad question that I might be able to help with. There have been very few postings since we all started staying home to not get the virus. The few that have been posted usually dealt with Lionel matters, or bluetooth / computer stuff I don't know, or care, about. This scarcity of forum activity seems weird to me. I would have thought it would increase, due to the "house arrest" situation, rather than dying off to a trickle. I'll get to that answering your question part, but first I have a possibly amusing story for you. (It didn't amuse me at all!)
Speaking of trickles, and deluges, San Diego got lots of rain all this week. My wife, daughter, and I spent this morning dealing with flood control. One of the downspouts from our home's gutter system clogged and caused an unplanned, and very unwanted, waterfall off the side of our house. The waterfall created a 2" deep "pond" near the side door of our garage. As it was still raining enough to make one contemplate ark building, There was every chance that the pond would get high enough to flood the garage. That's where my railroad lives, so something had to be done!
After a submerged, and therefore blind, attempt to get a hose into the drain that should have carried the pond away, and didn't, I then tried to get a garden hose disconnected from a handy hose reel, to use as a siphon. Having forgotten how the hose was attached, I had a "merry old time" NOT "singing in the (pouring down) rain." Finally I got the hose disconnected and then set up as a siphon, by sucking some pretty disgusting, dirty water with my mouth, I got the siphon to work. However, it didn't move all that much water. I noticed about a dozen major kinks in the hose.

Did I mention that my disability means that bending over, say to pick up a hose, is a major undertaking for me, complete with a strong tendency to fall on my face? (Due to nerve problems in my lower spine, the muscles in my feet, and therefore my ability to balance, don't work worth spit)
When I tried to get the kinks out of the hose, I discovered that this particularly wonderful hose is the "once kinked, forever kinked" type!
Fortunately, we had another hose available, just as firmly attached to another hose reel, in just as mysterious a fashion. After spending a delightful 20 minutes, in the deluge, trying to unthread a hose from the reel, I found I had been turning the wrong thing! Oh goody gumdrops!
We are very lucky to have my 35 year old athletic daughter visiting. She can do stuff I can't do anymore, like climbing ladders, bailing out a pond with a pair of five gallon buckets, and ultimately clearing the downspout, which shut off the waterfall.

So, how was your morning?

OK back to your question. "Do we "experts" have a scenery vision in mind, or is it trial and error for us too?"

Maybe, and yes.

I usually have some (vague) idea of what I want to end up with, in terms of a feature. Then in executing my wonderful "vision", I normally screw up at least one, and often several, aspects of whatever it was supposed to be, and do it over. In fact, I do so many things over that my friend, and fellow model railroader, Dave, has christened me " The king of do overs." Well, at least I excel at something!
I also have the benefit, not only of sheer experience, but also of copying a prototype. The real Milwaukee Road, had lots of interesting stuff in the Seattle area, and. I have lots of books, with lots of photos, of the real items, to copy. My models of the Allentown covered bridge, and the Black River train order station, are both pretty close representations, taken from the photos of the real structures. So is my model of Seattle Union Station.
My problem is not what to model, but how to adapt the model to fit on a crowded model railroad, and still have it bear a reasonable resemblance to it's prototype. The structures are not the only things that need to be squeezed in. The actual railroad trackage is miles longer, and a whole lot more complex, than anything I could possibly fit on my layout. So the Allentown bridge has only one track under it instead of the four under the prototype. I also deleted the wood trestle approaches to that bridge, because, ironically, the actual real thing looked "unrealistic" and "contrived", to me, (rather like one of those Atlas trestle sets that raise up one track of a figure eight over the other) Black River was also severely compressed to fit, leaving out most of the prototype's complex trackage. Oddly, the trackage at Seattle Union Station, my largest signature structure, is pretty close to the quite simple arrangement that existed at the real station
I have had to make some hard choices. Do I want to show more of the passenger operations, at the expense of freight operations? Can I pear down, often drastically, the number of tracks that were in that prototype location, and still represent " Allentown", or "Black River", let alone "Seattle?"

Another rather embarrassing item that is common to most model railroads is that when the locomotive is pulling past the Watsonville station, the caboose has yet to leave Hover town! This is where "selective omission", view blocks, and scene boundaries, can help.
For your much smaller layout, I have some suggestions. First, a view block/scene boundary. Divide your layout in two, lengthwise, down the middle. Due to the extreme lack of space, I recommend using a double-sided backdrop, rather than the bulkier alternative of a range of hills.
You should also seriously consider removing the "figure eight" type track in the middle of your basic oval. Figure eights don't exist in the prototype, and that makes them impossible to scenic realistically. It's pretty tough to make something look "just like the real thing" when, by golly, there is no real thing! Trying to disguise a figure eight as anything other than a figure eight is mighty challenging too.

Prototype "track plans" are simple to the point of being downright dull. Go outside and look at a bit of real railroad. How many tracks do you see? Very probably only one, or possibly two. The track(s) also are likely to be laid out in a fairly straight line, from horizon-to-horizon, in places like Kansas, and from "curve-you-can't-see-around" to "underpass-you-can't-see-very-far-under" in most other places.

If you stick to a basic oval* and have a passing siding, and a couple of industrial spurs, on either side of the backdrop/divider, suddenly things become a lot more realistic-looking, operationally interesting, and even easier to scenic. Win, win, win!
Now, a train arriving in Watsonville becomes just that, because you can't see (and therefore can ignore) the back portion of the train. The last few cars, and the caboose, will still be in Hoover town physically, but you won't be able to see them from the Watsonville side, and on the Hoover town side, well, the train hasn't left town yet. Maybe there's a red signal "further down the line", that we station loitering folks can't see from the Hover town station platform. If you have an underpass, hill, tunnel, or other scene boundary device at either end of Watsonville, & Hoover town, then your illusion is complete, and your brain tends to concentrate solely on what's happening in the little scene of Watsonville. It will tend to ignore everything else. The scenery then becomes logical, and that makes it easier to envision, and tends to make it look more realistic, and easier to build, since you now know that Watsonville needs streets, industries, and, of course, your personal favorite, gingerbread houses!
The two sides of your layout don't necessarily need to both be towns. One side could be rugged scenery with a train coming out of a tunnel and onto a trestle crossing a river. Your one remaining town then becomes any town along the (imaginary) route.

* An oval can look a lot more interesting if it's skewed a bit, so the track doesn't run dead parallel to the edge of the table. The long, straight sides of an oval don't need to be solely straight either. You can have curves in one side, as you do now, but provide a reason for the curve. Maybe the track is curved to follow the bank of a river.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 😄


----------



## CTValleyRR

gimme30 said:


> I'm sure you're right CT, but most likely if I were left to my own devices I'd have probably come up with something even more convoluted!
> Oh well, lesson learned. With TF's fixes even my finicky Aerotrain makes it around alright, so I'm trying to concentrate on landscaping.
> 
> Which is turning out to be more difficult than I thought.
> 
> For whatever reason I just can't picture in my head what I want to do. I've tried drawing it out, but don't get very fart that way since I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I've resorted to trying to mock up something using balled up paper.
> 
> How do you guys deal with that? Do you have a vision in mind that easily translates to reality or is it trial and error for you too?


Pictures, pictures, and still more pictures. I am fortunate, in that I actually live near and work / volunteer at the railroad zi am modeling. We are blessed to have a fine gentleman, Max Miller, who was one of the original group who save the Valley Rairoad from being torn up. The has lovingly documented the history of the entire line in photographs and prose. There are also thousands of pages of reference material on the New Haven Railroad (the University of Connecticut had the foresight to acquire as much of their archival documentation as possible when the Penn Central -- successor of the New Haven -- went belly-up in 1971). There are also lots of my own photos, where I have said "that looks cool / funny / beautiful / whatever, I want to do that on my layout".

Ok, not everyone has the luxury to live nearby (look at MichaelE modeling Europe), or have the kind of documentation available that I do, but that's not a show stopper. There are tons of photos on the internet, there are illustrated books (many of them about railroads we're modeling, or close enough), there are old topographic and Sanborn Fire Insurance maps. You can take a road trip (after coronavirus). Point is, 99.99% of us don't just make it up; we copy something else. Often the real world. Or look at track plans from Model Railroader, Model Railroad Hobbyist or other publications (but as I noted, steer clear of those from companies with something to sell). Take a piece from this one, a module from that, a vignette from another. Customize it to make it your own.


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## gimme30

Gents thank you, both, very much for your insights, and I apologize for the late response. The last thing I want to do after work is stare at a monitor so I generally won't get online much until my weekend, which is Thurs/Fri.



CTValleyRR said:


> Point is, 99.99% of us don't just make it up; we copy something else.


This definitely strikes a chord for me, and it makes perfect sense if you're modelling a specific area or line, but my little layout is pure fantasy and I think that's my biggest obstacle. Obviously this layout doesn't allow for any actual operations and as TF mentioned a figure 8 isn't something you'd see IRL anyway. But in my mind it still needs some sort of purpose. I _think _I've got that part sorted but it's the implementation that's driving me nuts. It's like some kind of mental block-for some reason it's stuck in my head that it's got to be coherent...an industry plopped here, a residential district plopped there, just isn't going to cut it. So I'm trying to envision the entirety as a whole and that's when my little pea brain derails. It doesn't help that I'm less than impressed with what's commercially available as far as structures go, but I don't have time to scratch build everything so apparently I'm going to have to lower my standards. 

So, do you fashion terrain around structures, or build the landscape first then fit everything else in? 

Part of my trouble comes from the stock terrain plan. As designed it's a three-sided affair viewed only from the front and sides. 









My version isn't going to sit against a wall so I've modified the "back" side housing the tunnels with the idea of trying to make it interesting from any angle. 
Lots to think about! Thanks again for the help...maybe the inspiration fairy will visit today and I'll actually make some progress!

Kind of off topic, but my wife was born in Long Meadow MA and grew up in Hartford. I never understood what she meant when she'd say "everyone lives in the country" until we made the trip out to visit her old stomping grounds. It's so green and lush with trees, you really do get a sense of isolation even though you're surrounded by people. What beautiful country!



traction fan said:


> This scarcity of forum activity seems weird to me. I would have thought it would increase, due to the "house arrest" situation, rather than dying off to a trickle.


Seems weird to me too. I sincerely hope it's not because of the new format. Really TF, it's not *that* bad, if you geezers had your way we'd still be listening to AM in our horse and buggies.
I am sorry to hear about Lake TractionFan. That sort of thing is bad not only for model railroads but foundations too! Looks like your daughter picked the perfect time to come home. Might I suggest a kiddie pool placed in the appropriate location for next time? One of those rubber caps, and duckies, and you're all set!

I've actually had the same thing happen thanks to the squirrels I tend to shoot whenever I happen to see 'em. I nailed one but he didn't drop, and ran out of sight over the peak. Found him the next time it rained stuck trying to go down the downspout.


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## CTValleyRR

So you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you're going to have a layout that small, then you have no choice but to plop here and drop there. The space limit forces you to. If you want to "blend" terrain types, you need a lot more space than you have. What is it about your example that isn't "plopped"? The town is plopped in the middle of one loop, the factory in the other (and the area in front of the loading dock doesn't look like either pavement or gravel...). Where do people who live, work, or shop in that town park, anyway? No real railroad with any competent civil engineer on its staff would tunnel through a puny hill like that. They would cut through or go around.

The point isn't to put down that layout, but to free you from the shackles of slavish devotion to a unified theme. My layout covers an area of approximately 27 miles, from Old Saybrook CT to Middletown CT, along the West bank of the Connecticut River. In HO scale, that's still 1/3 of a mile. It wouldn't fit in a football stadium, let alone my basement. All model railroads, by definition, have some degree of compression, omission and inclusion of isolated vignettes. I'm modeling the mid 1950's, yet I have both a piano factory and a brownstone quarry that were long gone by then. In any case, the piano factory was historically over 2 miles from the tracks and was never served by the railroad. The quarry, worse still, was on the opposite bank of the river, and also never shipped by rail. Yet I included them. The quarry because of it's huge potential to generate interesting rail traffic, and the piano factory because it is an absolutely gorgeous example of a New England brick mill building (it's a Walthers Cornerstone kit at the moment; someday I will scratchbuild a good model of it). Likewise, while the Mill Creek high bridge is a real location, it was never double tracked, and spans a much broader ravine than I created on my layout, and the Washington Street flyover was built by Conrail, long after the New Haven ceased to exist, and doesn't (didn't) carry the Valley Line in any case, yet it's on my layout. The town of Old Saybrook is in one of the aisles (only the steamship dock and passenger terminal are modeled), the roundhouse and turntable are missing (not enough room on the layout, and Middletown is represented only by the block of buildings around the team track. 

So there are lots of compromises, yet all those cobbled-together pieces of sorta-kinds, never was, and what if make up a very satisfying layout. Your layout may not be a real place, but one factory might look like one in your town, while your feed mill is modeled on a picture from Trains magazine of a best-looking structure in upstate New York, while your hills look like the Round Tops in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. Your track arrangement in this area looks like a layout you saw in Model Railroader magazine, while that over there looks like an interesting arrangement you saw in Germany on Google Earth. Blend it together with realistic but generic scenery and functional track work and you have a layout. Reality can inspire you without being exactly right for your layout.


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## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> Gents thank you, both, very much for your insights, and I apologize for the late response. The last thing I want to do after work is stare at a monitor so I generally won't get online much until my weekend, which is Thurs/Fri.
> 
> 
> 
> This definitely strikes a chord for me, and it makes perfect sense if you're modelling a specific area or line, but my little layout is pure fantasy and I think that's my biggest obstacle. Obviously this layout doesn't allow for any actual operations and as TF mentioned a figure 8 isn't something you'd see IRL anyway. But in my mind it still needs some sort of purpose. I _think _I've got that part sorted but it's the implementation that's driving me nuts. It's like some kind of mental block-for some reason it's stuck in my head that it's got to be coherent...an industry plopped here, a residential district plopped there, just isn't going to cut it. So I'm trying to envision the entirety as a whole and that's when my little pea brain derails. It doesn't help that I'm less than impressed with what's commercially available as far as structures go, but I don't have time to scratch build everything so apparently I'm going to have to lower my standards.
> 
> So, do you fashion terrain around structures, or build the landscape first then fit everything else in?
> 
> Part of my trouble comes from the stock terrain plan. As designed it's a three-sided affair viewed only from the front and sides.
> View attachment 540897
> 
> 
> My version isn't going to sit against a wall so I've modified the "back" side housing the tunnels with the idea of trying to make it interesting from any angle.
> Lots to think about! Thanks again for the help...maybe the inspiration fairy will visit today and I'll actually make some progress!
> 
> Kind of off topic, but my wife was born in Long Meadow MA and grew up in Hartford. I never understood what she meant when she'd say "everyone lives in the country" until we made the trip out to visit her old stomping grounds. It's so green and lush with trees, you really do get a sense of isolation even though you're surrounded by people. What beautiful country!
> 
> 
> 
> Seems weird to me too. I sincerely hope it's not because of the new format. Really TF, it's not *that* bad, if you geezers had your way we'd still be listening to AM in our horse and buggies.
> I am sorry to hear about Lake TractionFan. That sort of thing is bad not only for model railroads but foundations too! Looks like your daughter picked the perfect time to come home. Might I suggest a kiddie pool placed in the appropriate location for next time? One of those rubber caps, and duckies, and you're all set!
> 
> I've actually had the same thing happen thanks to the squirrels I tend to shoot whenever I happen to see 'em. I nailed one but he didn't drop, and ran out of sight over the peak. Found him the next time it rained stuck trying to go down the downspout.


gimme30;

If you are going to stick with the figure eight, (and I strongly recommend you do not), then fantasyland, and trains running round-and-round are what you're going to be stuck with. The suggested scenery in that photo is probably as good as anything possible to fit that ridiculous track plan.

If , "in your mind it still needs some sort of purpose" something better than "Look look, see little train go!" You need a more realistic track arrangement dude. One that will allow some basic operation. That, in turn, will tend to indicate where the structures will be located, and some basic scenes will suggest themselves. Here is one possible scenario.
The lumberyard goes here in town since they sell locally. The lumberyard has a rail siding both to receive loads of bulk lumber from an "off the layout" lumbering operation, and to ship out bulk lots to distant large customers.For instance, the lumber yard ships a carload of finished lumber to their biggest customer, the furniture factory. That factory is on the other side of the layout (and the other side of the essential backdrop/scene divider) from the lumberyard, to justify rail shipment of lumber to the furniture factory. (If they were only across the parking lot, the happy merry workers could roll the stuff over there on Home Depot carts! ) 😄 
The furniture factory also gets boxcars of cardboard cartons from the box manufacturer's plant,then the furniture gets boxed up, and finally is shipped out in boxcars to the "off the layout" city's furniture stores. Every industry on the layout has a purpose, and naturally, they are all rail-served. They ship stuff to each other, which is a realistic operation, and tends to dictate industry locations, and hence scenery that makes sense.
There need to be natural obstacles to overcome too. Like a tunnel to hide the fact that we're really only passing through that center backdrop, a bridge over the river that our track follows along in a gentle curve, a road underpass to help conceal the other hole through the backdrop and let the train get back, etc. Speaking of tunnels, and your "viewable from all sides" idea, don't forget about access to the track inside the tunnel. Also,at least for now, I would recommend not putting any turnouts inside a tunnel. The only way this is OK is if you can remove the tunnel and have the same eyeball and hands access to a concealed turnout as you do to a visible one. A little hatch you can barely get one hand through is not good enough.

My own technique, at least now, on my seventh, and most realistic, layout, is conceived in small scenes. I see a structure that I want to include, so I read up on that prototype structure and what its relationship to the railroad was. Then I try to find a location on the layout where a downsized, simplified, version of that structure might fit. 
Also, since I am, at least ostensibly, modeling a prototype, I might concern myself with the relative locations of the scenes. A train headed east from Seattle will go through Black River before getting to Cedar Falls because that's how the real Milwaukee Road, in the real state of Washington, was laid out.

On your "freelanced" (fantasy) layout, you don't need to even be concerned about any of that. However a good freelanced layout should still be plausible. i.e. It should be able to operate in some measure like a real railroad would, even though it is not located in some real place, and even if your "ABC Lines railway Co." never really existed. 

Otherwise it's just an oval with a figure eight inside it.  
That's not necessarily bad though. IF,
1) It's what you really want to end up with. OR
2) You're willing to write off building this whole layout to be strictly a learning experience. My first layout, and several of my later ones, were not particularly realistic, to put it very mildly. I did learn from them, and sort of "evolve" into the modeler I am now. Maybe you need, or want, to do the same, or maybe not, that's up to you.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan 😊


----------



## gimme30

CTValleyRR said:


> Where do people who live, work, or shop in that town park, anyway?


Exactly!
That's the first thing I thought when I saw the layout and part of the reason I decided to deviate from the as-pictured topography. That, and a desire to create something other than another cookie-cutter Scenic Ridge. 
I knew there was no way I'd be able to accurately recreate the sort of infrastructure that could support a small community living near it's work places on a space the size of your typical bedroom door. Well, accurately enough for _me_ anyway, and that's the rub. I know you can't have it all. But it's those very omissions that are glaringly obvious to my eyes-Yep, I see that intricately detailed power station working O.T. to provide juice to that amazingly rendered widget factory that in itself is a standalone work of art....but where's the waste processing facility? The natural gas plant? All those little people must be hippies because there's no barber around for miles! 

It's just the way my mind works. 

Even a neophyte like myself can see there's no practical reason for having the track at all-it serves no purpose other than to watch the "little trains go round and round." 🤓 
Honestly that's fine with me...for now. I'll build something more elaborate when I move in a couple of years and have the space to do it properly. So yes, this is definitely an experiment and learning experience for me more than anything else. 

I fell into this by sheer chance. Not that trains/model railroading haven't always fascinated me, but I never had one as a kid and life, liberty, and the pursuit of high speeds have kept me from actively pursuing it until recently. I spotted this 'interesting' looking box at a garage sale while out walking with the wife, and $75 later came home with it, the track pack designed for it, and the Villa Vampir kit. That was over 10 years ago and the whole works has sat in the rafters waiting for me to get to it-that time came when a particularly nasty crash laid me up for a few months and I was bored out of my skull. I pulled it down, did a little research and found I'd gotten a smoking deal on it, and dived in. Originally I'd planned to just follow the instructions as-is and do it as low budget as possible, but after spending a considerable amount of time getting the track laid I realized that just wasn't going to work. 
All this is neither here nor there, just a little background so you know where I'm coming from.

I've definitely hamstrung myself thinking I could somehow squeeze it "all" in, but your perspectives have cleared that block and I intend to take a more minimalistic approach. Not that I've figured it out 100%, but the path's less foggy for sure. I know between the two of you I'm hearing wisdom based on years of experience and I do not take it lightly. I can't begin to tell you how grateful I am for your willingness to help.🍻


----------



## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> Exactly!
> That's the first thing I thought when I saw the layout and part of the reason I decided to deviate from the as-pictured topography. That, and a desire to create something other than another cookie-cutter Scenic Ridge.
> I knew there was no way I'd be able to accurately recreate the sort of infrastructure that could support a small community living near it's work places on a space the size of your typical bedroom door. Well, accurately enough for _me_ anyway, and that's the rub. I know you can't have it all. But it's those very omissions that are glaringly obvious to my eyes-Yep, I see that intricately detailed power station working O.T. to provide juice to that amazingly rendered widget factory that in itself is a standalone work of art....but where's the waste processing facility? The natural gas plant? All those little people must be hippies because there's no barber around for miles!
> 
> It's just the way my mind works.
> 
> Even a neophyte like myself can see there's no practical reason for having the track at all-it serves no purpose other than to watch the "little trains go round and round." 🤓
> Honestly that's fine with me...for now. I'll build something more elaborate when I move in a couple of years and have the space to do it properly. So yes, this is definitely an experiment and learning experience for me more than anything else.
> 
> I fell into this by sheer chance. Not that trains/model railroading haven't always fascinated me, but I never had one as a kid and life, liberty, and the pursuit of high speeds have kept me from actively pursuing it until recently. I spotted this 'interesting' looking box at a garage sale while out walking with the wife, and $75 later came home with it, the track pack designed for it, and the Villa Vampir kit. That was over 10 years ago and the whole works has sat in the rafters waiting for me to get to it-that time came when a particularly nasty crash laid me up for a few months and I was bored out of my skull. I pulled it down, did a little research and found I'd gotten a smoking deal on it, and dived in. Originally I'd planned to just follow the instructions as-is and do it as low budget as possible, but after spending a considerable amount of time getting the track laid I realized that just wasn't going to work.
> All this is neither here nor there, just a little background so you know where I'm coming from.
> 
> I've definitely hamstrung myself thinking I could somehow squeeze it "all" in, but your perspectives have cleared that block and I intend to take a more minimalistic approach. Not that I've figured it out 100%, but the path's less foggy for sure. I know between the two of you I'm hearing wisdom based on years of experience and I do not take it lightly. I can't begin to tell you how grateful I am for your willingness to help.🍻





gimme30 said:


> Exactly!
> That's the first thing I thought when I saw the layout and part of the reason I decided to deviate from the as-pictured topography. That, and a desire to create something other than another cookie-cutter Scenic Ridge.
> I knew there was no way I'd be able to accurately recreate the sort of infrastructure that could support a small community living near it's work places on a space the size of your typical bedroom door. Well, accurately enough for _me_ anyway, and that's the rub. I know you can't have it all. But it's those very omissions that are glaringly obvious to my eyes-Yep, I see that intricately detailed power station working O.T. to provide juice to that amazingly rendered widget factory that in itself is a standalone work of art....but where's the waste processing facility? The natural gas plant? All those little people must be hippies because there's no barber around for miles!
> 
> It's just the way my mind works.
> 
> Even a neophyte like myself can see there's no practical reason for having the track at all-it serves no purpose other than to watch the "little trains go round and round." 🤓
> Honestly that's fine with me...for now. I'll build something more elaborate when I move in a couple of years and have the space to do it properly. So yes, this is definitely an experiment and learning experience for me more than anything else.
> 
> I fell into this by sheer chance. Not that trains/model railroading haven't always fascinated me, but I never had one as a kid and life, liberty, and the pursuit of high speeds have kept me from actively pursuing it until recently. I spotted this 'interesting' looking box at a garage sale while out walking with the wife, and $75 later came home with it, the track pack designed for it, and the Villa Vampir kit. That was over 10 years ago and the whole works has sat in the rafters waiting for me to get to it-that time came when a particularly nasty crash laid me up for a few months and I was bored out of my skull. I pulled it down, did a little research and found I'd gotten a smoking deal on it, and dived in. Originally I'd planned to just follow the instructions as-is and do it as low budget as possible, but after spending a considerable amount of time getting the track laid I realized that just wasn't going to work.
> All this is neither here nor there, just a little background so you know where I'm coming from.
> 
> I've definitely hamstrung myself thinking I could somehow squeeze it "all" in, but your perspectives have cleared that block and I intend to take a more minimalistic approach. Not that I've figured it out 100%, but the path's less foggy for sure. I know between the two of you I'm hearing wisdom based on years of experience and I do not take it lightly. I can't begin to tell you how grateful I am for your willingness to help.🍻



gimme30;

Glad to help. It give me an excuse to spout BS and that's always fun! 😄
Since you have a small layout, you could probably combine the waste processing plant and the natural gas plant, particularly if the locals are into Mexican or Thai food! 😁 They don't need to be hippies to not get haircuts either. They could just be "sheltering in place" like the rest of us are. By the time the restrictions on non-essential business are lifted, we may all look like Sasquatch! 
BTW, My wife heard that Nail Salons, of all things, were being considered "essential businesses!" Nail salons?, really?

On to "more serious" (model railroad) matters. Using your first, small layout as a learning experience is fine.
While the motive behind all my files is to try to jump start newbies past the canned track plan layouts, and using some of their same time, effort, and money, to get to something with more lasting satisfaction, that may not work for everyone, or even most everyone.
Sometimes you learn by building Atlas track plan # 12 exactly as shown. You learn that filling the whole space with track doesn't leave room for anything else that would exist in the real world. You learn to wonder how the scale children play, in a backyard yard full of track, and speeding trains.
You learn that Atlas turnouts tend to derail stuff, a lot. 
Ultimately you learn that what you have created bears little or no resemblance to reality. 
That doesn't matter to a lot of people. Look at all the Lionel fans, and their layouts. Their having a ball, and, with the possible exception of the trains themselves, there is nothing on those layouts that looks even remotely like it's prototype. So what. They're having fun. 

regards;

Traction Fan 😁


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## gimme30

traction fan said:


> BTW, My wife heard that Nail Salons, of all things, were being considered "essential businesses!" Nail salons?, really?


This kinda cranks me off. I have to walk around looking like the abominable snowman while Princess gets her toe nails painted? What a screwy world we live in. It's too bad summer's coming...I've got ear hair so long I could wrap it around my neck like a scarf. I could braid the back and make Pocahontas jealous. Cousin It's got nothin' on me! All I need now are boobs and I could rule the world.

But I digress.

Having fun _is _what it's all about and the O scale guys certainly do seem to be having a ball. Of course they have all the automated gadgets to play around with. And steamers we N-scalers can only dream about. And neon Lionel signs to make their black light posters look groovy.

Then again they can't grab five or six freight cars in one hand to take from the shelf to the track. All the trips back and forth must be tough on their geriatric joints.

Anyway I've come up with a general direction to follow terrain-wise and I think my plan to "divide" it should work out ok....trouble now is how to integrate the access hatch so it isn't so obvious.


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## bl665

Speaking of hair. I kept pulling at one that was in my snout and once extracted I had to show my girlfriend the discovery I had made. It was pretty close to the story of discovering America ! 🤣

The kids with the big trains aren't messing around. I don't know about all of you but this was a first for me. These dudes literally chase the train around filling it with coal to keep it running. Pretty impressive machines they have. I would need a lot of beer to keep running round and round the track though to keep up on these beauties !! I had no idea they made these ! Pretty cool !







@gimme30 I also ran across your previous post on this thread about coloring terrain. Just a thought. What I've been doing is this. I'm just taking photos from the great ol' web. Ill save it and when I go out to paint I'll keep an eye on the photo while blending colors I might think work. I'm going to have a lot of light areas with dark areas because of the "fire" so I have to have a good idea of how I'm going to paint before I actually do it. I've just been using sample paper or random items like the legs of the bench-work ya know. lol
I did the same with the plaster. It sounds like a lot of time but its entertaining. 

You can also just paint one solid color and then blend with other things like the fine ground foam. Hope this helps man !


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## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> This kinda cranks me off. I have to walk around looking like a goddamn hobbit while Princess gets her toe nails painted? What a screwy world we live in. It's too bad summer's coming...I've got ear hair so long I could wrap it around my neck like a scarf. I could braid the back and make Pocahontas jealous. Cousin It's got nothin' on me! All I need now are boobs and I could rule the world.
> 
> But I digress.
> 
> Having fun _is _what it's all about and the O scale guys certainly do seem to be having a ball. Of course they have all the automated gadgets to play around with. And steamers we N-scalers can only dream about. And neon Lionel signs to make their black light posters look groovy.
> 
> Then again they can't grab five or six freight cars in one hand to take from the shelf to the track. All the trips back and forth must be tough on their geriatric joints.
> 
> Anyway I've come up with a general direction to follow terrain-wise and I think my plan to "divide" it should work out ok....trouble now is how to integrate the access hatch so it isn't so obvious.


gimme3o;

Access hatch???!  You're kidding right? On that small a layout, a duck under access hatch is like a screen door on a submarine. Not only unnecessary, but downright dumb! Or do you mean an "access hatch" to let you reach inside the tunnel? That makes sense, an access hatch for a person to get into the middle of your coffee-table-sized layout does not. If you do have a duck under in mind, please read a small part of the file below, starting just after "sketch #4", near the end. It gives my experience -based opinions on duck unders.

Good luck, Have fun;

Traction Fan


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## traction fan

bl665 said:


> Speaking of hair. I kept pulling at one that was in my snout and once extracted I had to show my girlfriend the discovery I had made. It was pretty close to the story of discovering America ! 🤣
> 
> The kids with the big trains aren't messing around. I don't know about all of you but this was a first for me. These dudes literally chase the train around filling it with coal to keep it running. Pretty impressive machines they have. I would need a lot of beer to keep running round and round the track though to keep up on these beauties !! I had no idea they made these ! Pretty cool !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @gimme30 I also ran across your previous post on this thread about coloring terrain. Just a thought. What I've been doing is this. I'm just taking photos from the great ol' web. Ill save it and when I go out to paint I'll keep an eye on the photo while blending colors I might think work. I'm going to have a lot of light areas with dark areas because of the "fire" so I have to have a good idea of how I'm going to paint before I actually do it. I've just been using sample paper or random items like the legs of the bench-work ya know. lol
> I did the same with the plaster. It sounds like a lot of time but its entertaining.
> 
> You can also just paint one solid color and then blend with other things like the fine ground foam. Hope this helps man !


bl665; 

After displaying your nose hair "discovery" to your girlfriend, do you still have a girlfriend? 😄 
As for coloring terrain, I paint everything a dirt brown color of latex house paint first. Then I glue on a thin layer of very finely sifted real dirt. On top of that I add ground foam "grass", bushes, trees as needed. The results can be seen in the photos below.


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## bl665

I shouldn't .... but I do haha 

Good Stuff @traction fan The rocks on the cliff looks like some caves I use to visit! And the Black river town reminds me of this crazy caboose book ! I remember it from when I was young.

I hope @gimme30 gets some inspiration from this and paints a masterpiece! I'll be that neighbor watching you do the fire Dance. Than in 7 days when I receive my parts ... you can watch me do the same thing ! Make sure to have something to bbq for outdoor viewing lol !!! 🤣


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## gimme30

Lol you guys crack me up! 
There'll be no fire dancing for me, I can't even shoot tree rats without one of the neighbors complaining. They get a glimpse of me dropping drawers and it's the pokey for sure! 

TF I only need to get an arm in- it'd have to be a pretty large hole to fit my big giant head in there!  
I have to get to work soon but I'll get a pic up later so you can get an idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.

Thanks gents!


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## traction fan

gimme30 said:


> Lol you guys crack me up!
> There'll be no fire dancing for me, I can't even shoot tree rats without one of the neighbors complaining. They get a glimpse of me dropping drawers and it's the pokey for sure!
> 
> TF I only need to get an arm in- it'd have to be a pretty large hole to fit my big giant head in there!
> I have to get to work soon but I'll get a pic up later so you can get an idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.
> 
> Thanks gents!


gimme30;

An arm hole might work (poorly) if you don't put any turnouts in the tunnel, or try to re-rail a train, or extract cars without damage, or clean track easily. Can't you use a lift-off mountain? That way you would be able to see, and reach everything as well as you can outside the tunnel, which is really the best way to do it. On a layout as small as yours, I wouldn't think a large enough hill to be a handling problem would fit, particularly if it were made of foam. On my larger layout, I have plenty of hidden track, including a staging yard with multiple turnouts. However, the scenery and skyboard backdrops that hide that track, are all removable. Your layout, your rules. Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing your photos.

regards;

Traction Fan 😊

BTW What do you shoot squirrels with, a bean shooter? You said earlier that you shot one but he ran away, and you later found him in a rain gutter on your house. I'd think even a .22 would do in a "tree rat" with one hit. A .45 would pretty well disintegrate him. .30-06, .308, and the like, would fly right through the squirrel, your neighbor's house, his neighbor's house (on the other, downrange, side) etc. Also any neighbors unfortunate enough to be inside their houses when "Buffy-butt, the mad squirrel slayer" was doing his thing!
"Shelter" in place at home indeed!


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## traction fan




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## MichaelE

bl665 said:


> Speaking of hair. I kept pulling at one that was in my snout and once extracted I had to show my girlfriend the discovery I had made. It was pretty close to the story of discovering America ! 🤣
> 
> The kids with the big trains aren't messing around. I don't know about all of you but this was a first for me. These dudes literally chase the train around filling it with coal to keep it running. Pretty impressive machines they have. I would need a lot of beer to keep running round and round the track though to keep up on these beauties !! I had no idea they made these ! Pretty cool !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @gimme30 I also ran across your previous post on this thread about coloring terrain. Just a thought. What I've been doing is this. I'm just taking photos from the great ol' web. Ill save it and when I go out to paint I'll keep an eye on the photo while blending colors I might think work. I'm going to have a lot of light areas with dark areas because of the "fire" so I have to have a good idea of how I'm going to paint before I actually do it. I've just been using sample paper or random items like the legs of the bench-work ya know. lol
> I did the same with the plaster. It sounds like a lot of time but its entertaining.
> 
> You can also just paint one solid color and then blend with other things like the fine ground foam. Hope this helps man !



Electric locomotives are a lot less strenuous. More bier drinking time.


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## gimme30

Yup, beer curls, that's my kind of exercise!



traction fan said:


> BTW What do you shoot squirrels with, a bean shooter? You said earlier that you shot one but he ran away, and you later found him in a rain gutter on your house. I'd think even a .22 would do in a "tree rat" with one hit. A .45 would pretty well disintegrate him. .30-06, .308, and the like, would fly right through the squirrel, your neighbor's house, his neighbor's house (on the other, downrange, side) etc. Also any neighbors unfortunate enough to be inside their houses when "Buffy-butt, the mad squirrel slayer" was doing his thing!
> "Shelter" in place at home indeed!


LMAO! 
In town I can't fire real guns so I use air guns. As it turns out, a regular old pump bb gun works FAR better than my .22 caliber 3k psi PCP on squirrels-they're tough buggers and pellets seem to just bounce off 'em. 
In the sticks they get it with whatever happens to be in the holster at the time.

Speaking of squirrels.....



 Really poor quality but hilarious.

Anyway.....since we've diverged from the topic AND my leading/trailing trucks no longer derail like crazy, I think it's time to start a new thread re: the layout/access hatch. I'll give it a catchy title so you can find it easily. Something like "Sasquatch makes a hole!" Or "Overpriced hooker layout-Great holes, but no access."

Erm, maybe not.


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## Will Everitt

gimme30 said:


> Santy brought me a couple new engines this season and the GG1 is the first Kato I've ever had issues with. By itself it won't make it one lap around my little layout without either the front or rear truck derailing, almost always on turnouts and randomly elsewhere. Add one car and it does fine, mostly. More than one and it's great, as long as the engine is pointing in the right direction! I'm thinking the trucks are just too light but I don't see how I could add weight to them anywhere.
> 
> Apparently no one else has this issue so I may be sol but any ideas would be appreciated!


I own two of these GG1s. One runs perfectly one way, but regularly derails the other (whichever way is "front!"). My second GG1 has the exact same problem yours has, very twitchy, derails on random places. I too run on Atlas code 80 track and their crappy turnouts, but these locomotives seem to do fine with the turnouts and derail at certain turns, even 19" radii turns when not pulling cars. I'm curious, did you ever solve the problem with your GG1. It's maddening to me that I have one that runs mostly fine and one that runs mostly not being they are the same locomotive!


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## traction fan

Will Everitt said:


> I own two of these GG1s. One runs perfectly one way, but regularly derails the other (whichever way is "front!"). My second GG1 has the exact same problem yours has, very twitchy, derails on random places. I too run on Atlas code 80 track and their crappy turnouts, but these locomotives seem to do fine with the turnouts and derail at certain turns, even 19" radii turns when not pulling cars. I'm curious, did you ever solve the problem with your GG1. It's maddening to me that I have one that runs mostly fine and one that runs mostly not being they are the same locomotive!


Will Everitt;

This post, by gimme 30 ,is an older one from Jan. 2020. He isn't even on the forum anymore. If you read this entire thread, you will see some back & forth between him and myself about the problem. He too found that pulling cars helped a little, and I proposed a "kite tail effect' to possibly explain why having the cars trailing behind stabilized whichever truck happened to be in the rear.
He did successfully & permanently, fix his derailing GG-1 problem (which in his case was only on the Atlas turnouts) by following the guard rail shimming part of my files attached below. He also used an NMRA gauge (see photo) to carefully check the wheels on the locomotive, the gauge of the track, and all the many variables on the Atlas turnouts.

From your description, I suspect that the very light pilot & trailing trucks are derailing because they, and possibly the track in some spots, are out of gauge. If you don't have an NMRA gauge it would be well worth buying one. They cost about $6 and you can order one from www.modeltrainstuff.com or www.trainworld.com 
Kato tends to make some of their wheelsets slightly narrow in gauge. This is more commonly a problem with turnouts than plain track, but only checking every inch of track, and all the wheels, will tell.

Since most of your derailments happen on curves, there may possibly be some glitch in the "problem child" loco that keeps the trucks from swiveling as far as they should. Also check the vertical movement of the pilot & trailing trucks. They may be hanging up on the problem loco.

Are you using 9-3/4" radius curves? Even with a piece of 19" radius acting as an easement at the beginning & end of the 9-3/4" main body of the curve, those 9-3/4" curves would be awfully tight for a big locomotive like a GG-1. 

Good Luck;

Traction Fan 🙂


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