# Third HO Layout



## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Backstory... Second HO Layout

So begins a new journey.

The thin black line is the room perimeter - 30' x 17'. The thick black segments are all doors that swing in. On the left is a 60" double door and the other two are 30" doors. And those are probably the only things about this that won't change.

Upper right is water tank, softener & heater. Center right wall is a laundry/utility sink. A new wall (red) will hide all of that stuff.

Inside the blue line is the layout base, minus the blue in the middle (SCARM won't let you put a "hole" in your layout... well, you can but it's kludgy). Of course I'll be rounding those 90 deg. angles.

14' 2" top-to-bottom & 21' 10" side-to-side.

Around the outside perimeter of the layout is an 18" clearance from any walls. So, according to my measurements, there is no part of the layout that is more than a 26" reach from an edge.

The main layout base will be 48" high... at least. I haven't decided whether I'll do duck-under or a lift-out section.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm looking forward to your progress but my one concern is that 18" from wall to layout edge is doable but it seems really tight.


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## SDVike (Jun 11, 2018)

This the most exciting part for me. I’ve designed hundreds of layouts on my computer while waiting for the space to build one. Enjoy!

I may have missed it but what is the red line? 

Also, why don’t you want to put the layout against the wall and do a walk in layout?
I have the same issue of several poorly placed doors that break up wall space. Maybe a peninsula instead of a complete around the wall to avoid a duck under. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Gramps said:


> my one concern is that 18" from wall to layout edge is doable but it seems really tight.


Point taken. I think I'll build a section of the benchwork, place it at that distance and see how it goes "working" in that space.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

SDVike said:


> I may have missed it but what is the red line?


New wall (proposed) to hide the household waterworks.



SDVike said:


> Also, why don’t you want to put the layout against the wall and do a walk in layout?


The idea is to have 4' wide sections of bench top (and still reach the center) so I can do a 180 and have 22" radii without a dog bone. But construction is way out, so all that may change. 

Except the upper (north) wall which is an exterior basement concrete block wall that does get damp over to the left (west). A dehumidifier takes care of the moisture in the room but the wall itself does get damp.


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## Lemonhawk (Sep 24, 2013)

I would be looking into why the wall is damp, its likely to only get worse and may be something as simple as a little grading outside the wall to keep water from collecting against the wall.


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## 65steam (Dec 18, 2019)

Stumpy said:


> I think I'll build a section of the benchwork, place it at that distance and see how it goes "working" in that space.


It's not only working space that you need, but also ability to view your finished layout properly. It would be viewed best at eye level, but if you don't leave space for that, you and others will not be able to enjoy your excellent workmanship to its fullest extent.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Lemonhawk said:


> I would be looking into why the wall is damp, its likely to only get worse and may be something as simple as a little grading outside the wall to keep water from collecting against the wall.


Shortly after the basement wall was back-filled the HVAC outfit plopped down the slab and sat the compressor on it. It settled, leaning about 25 deg. toward the house. Their solution was to dig out the native clay (bull tallow) and replace it with a sand gravel mix in order to "stabilize" the ground. Water flowed straight thru the sand and was trapped by the surrounding clay at the base of the foundation. The compressor has since been moved, as much as possible of the sand was dug out and replaced with the native clay and the grade corrected. The dampness has slowly improved such that it now only occurs during prolonged torrential downpours. I believe, in a few more seasons, it will no longer occur.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

65steam said:


> It's not only working space that you need, but also ability to view your finished layout properly. It would be viewed best at eye level, but if you don't leave space for that, you and others will not be able to enjoy your excellent workmanship to its fullest extent.


Hmm. Interesting point. I never intended for that walk-around to be for spectators (since starting the 2nd layout in 2018 I've had exactly two). Food for thought.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Two loops. 

Just to see what an outermost and innermost loop would look like while maintaining a 22" minimum curve radius. For both loops I started at the top.

Inner loop is 38 feet or .63 scale miles of track.

Outer loop is 65 feet or just over 1 scale mile of track.


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Stumpy said:


> Backstory... Second HO Layout
> 
> So begins a new journey.
> 
> ...


Stumpy;


An 18" aisle is too narrow for anybody wider than a child, or an anorexic fashion model. 
A normal adult can't even turn their body 90 degrees, or bend over without their butt hitting the wall, in an 18" aisle. They could only shuffle sideways along it. How were you going to get under the table from that narrow aisle? It wouldn't be a duck under, but more of a contortionist's "slither under."

You really could have a much better layout, and one that is more "person friendly" by building a shelf layout around the walls. To do that would mean crossing three doorways though. Can the doors be remounted to swing out? That would help a lot. A hinged section across each doorway won't be easy, but it has been done many times, in many different ways, by many model railroaders. There are plenty of you tube videos showing such hinged sections.

Weather the doors can be changed to swing out, or not, you might consider using the doors themselves as "horizontal swinging gate" type hinged sections. After all, much of the necessary carpentry has already been done for you that way. For interior doors, removing the door altogether is another possibility. However, that might tempt you to take the seemingly "easy way out, and use a duck under."

Duck unders are the pits! Unless you simply hate your head, back, & neck, don't use a duck under. 
Sooner or later, or probably both, you WILL bash some part of your anatomy against the layout. If your table is four feet wide, it's not really a duck under anymore, that's more of a "crawl through tunnel."

I'm not sure you will be able to somehow lower yourself, feet first, out of an 18" aisle and then manage to contort your body to pass under a four foot deep table. That seems like quite a bit of gymnastic effort to go through every time you need to use the bathroom, or go in or out of the layout room for any other reason. Returning to the 18' aisle from under the layout would be just as bad. You would need to line your head & shoulders up to pass into that narrow aisle, while you were still under the table, and then do the recovery part of a deep knee bend to get back up into the aisle. That doesn't sound like any fun at all.

With a shelf around the walls, you won't need to have four-feet-deep tables. The corner curves can be just about as broad as you like. You won't need to restrict yourself to 22" radius. Your curve radii could be 36", or 40", or whatever.

I don't know if you have read the first file attached below, or not. Near the end of the file, it covers the various methods of getting in and out of a layout, including Duck Unders, Lift Out Sections, and Hinged Sections, giving the advantages, and disadvantages, of each.
Also near the end of that file are four sketches of layouts fit into a small room, in several scales. Any of them could easily be expanded into your much more generous space. The second file is new. It might give you some ideas about the benchwork for your new layout.

Good Luck & Have Fun;

Traction Fan


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

All good points TF.



traction fan said:


> Weather the doors can be changed to swing out


The door on the left is an exterior door, so no. The door on the right isn't an issue. I'll have to take a look at the door on the bottom.


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## J.Albert1949 (Feb 3, 2018)

Stumpy...

Looking at the image you posted in #10 above...

You could "join" the two loops on the lower right, and make it a "twice around" for longer running...


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Plan B.

Just over 2 scale miles of track.


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## SDVike (Jun 11, 2018)

Stumpy said:


> Plan B.
> 
> Just over 2 scale miles of track.
> 
> ...


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## traction fan (Oct 5, 2014)

Stumpy said:


> Plan B.
> 
> Just over 2 scale miles of track.
> 
> View attachment 560118


Stumpy;

This looks much better! 

Traction Fan 😊


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

If you go with that last plan you won't regret it.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Going with Micro Engineering track this time in SCARM The yard at the bottom is the ladder track system. I don't know about all that...

Played around some with the "big tooth" area and created a reverse loop.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

The problem with having a reverse loop is you really need two of them.
No way to reverse back to the original direction without a second loop.
Interesting layout with all kinds of possibilities. 

Magic


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## Old Guy (May 29, 2021)

A very interesting layout with a lot of possibilities.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Magic said:


> The problem with having a reverse loop is you really need two of them.
> No way to reverse back to the original direction without a second loop.


Does the turntable count?


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## Sideways (Jan 25, 2021)

Looks great Stump! I really like the roundhouse area👍


Magic said:


> The problem with having a reverse loop is you really need two of them.
> No way to reverse back to the original direction without a second loop.
> 
> Magic


As far as I can see, it can be done? He'd just need to go around the full circuit and reverse thru the loop, right? 


Stumpy said:


> the turntable


That too


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Sideways said:


> As far as I can see, it can be done? He'd just need to go around the full circuit and reverse thru the loop, right?


Negative Ghostrider. 

Magic is right. Once you reverse there's no way to un-reverse (other than the TT). Furthermore, if you're going clockwise on the main loop, there's no way to get into the reverse loop (other than backing in).


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## Sideways (Jan 25, 2021)

Stumpy said:


> Negative Ghostrider.
> 
> Magic is right. Once you reverse there's no way to un-reverse (other than the TT). Furthermore, if you're going clockwise on the main loop, there's no way to get into the reverse loop (other than backing in).


Ah I see, my bad👌

Ghostrider?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Sideways said:


> Ghostrider?


A reference to a line from the movie _Top Gun_.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Did some work on the yard and took out the reverse loop & put in a wye.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

I've decided that the "big tooth" will be modeled as an area of coastal North Carolina. Not a harbor, mind you, but your typical NC fish house where shrimp draggers and commercial fishermen offload their catch. I'm not sure rail ever serviced a fish house, but you never know, so I left a spur in there. Maybe a fast mover headed up north would pick up a reefer full of fresh seafood.










Some pics from google. Most from a fish house I frequent when at the coast.























































Sat view










Now to find 1:87 shrimp boats.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Up until about 15 years or so ago the Port Royal Railroad went from Port Royal, SC to Yemassee, SC where it connected with the ACL and its later incarnations. At the Port Royal Terminal there were, and still are, several shrimp boats and there is a building similar to the one in your photo. This may very well be the prototype for what you are looking to do. The railroad also picked up USMC recruits at Yemassee bound for Parris Island where it was a short trip from Port Royal to the base. The tracks finally got picked up about 10 years ago and there was talk of it being a rails to trails green space. I don't know if it came about. I know that Walther's made a shrimp boat for HO.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Interesting looking into that, Gramps.



Gramps said:


> The tracks finally got picked up about 10 years ago and there was talk of it being a rails to trails green space. I don't know if it came about.


It did. It is called the Spanish Moss Trail.



port royal sc train station - Google Search


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Gramps said:


> I know that Walther's made a shrimp boat for HO


Yep. Made by Kibri. It just looks a bit too stubby.









HO Scale Walthers SceneMaster 949-11016 Modern Fishing Boat Kit | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for HO Scale Walthers SceneMaster 949-11016 Modern Fishing Boat Kit at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com






The one from Sea Port Model Works is dead on, IMO. Albeit a bit hard on the pocketbook.









HO WATERLINE BOAT KITS - Sea Port Model Works







seaportmodelworks.com


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

Stumpy said:


> Yep. Made by Kibri. It just looks a bit too stubby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the price difference I would go with stubby.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Did some more SCARMing around today. Blue track is > 0 elevation. The straight across the top is 7" above base. 2.5 deg. ascent/descent from there until the track is no longer blue. Green track is 0 elevation, under the blue. If you squint you can see the tunnel openings.


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## afboundguy (Jan 10, 2021)

@Stumpy how come your SCRAM'ing looks so much neater and organized than mine? Mine looks like a hot mess...


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Just takes time. A LOT of time.


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## afboundguy (Jan 10, 2021)

Stumpy said:


> Just takes time. A LOT of time.


Guess I'm too impatient lol... I guess I'll just have to take my time when I do the final version I was quickly throwing mine together!


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

afboundguy said:


> I guess I'll just have to take my time when I do the final version


It's worth it, IMO. On the "Second HO Layout" I was able to order _exactly_ the track and turnouts I needed. In fact, I had so little left over that I had to go get another piece of flex for my programming track.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Loco approaching the yard area on either track marked with the green X. Loco could at some point stop, back up and eventually go through the turnout in the red circle. Then throw the turnout points and the loco is now heading the opposite direction on the "main". 

Does that constitute a reverse loop?


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

It seems to me that you are OK after backing through the turnout but after you start into the loop at the top and bottom you will have a reverse loop. But I would wait for some more opinions than just mine.


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

The red circled turnout is a reverse loop and will need special wiring 
and insulators at the turnout. An AR1 should do it if you're running DCC.

Magic


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks Magic.

Next question: 

I have locos at the purple arrows traveling in the direction of the arrows. What happens to those locos when a third loco traverses the "red" turnout and the AR trips?


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## Magic (Jan 28, 2014)

Nothing, the AR1 trips the reversing loop not the main track.
That loop needs to be isolated from the rest of the track on the 4 diverging rails and is powered by the AR1.
DCC track power is square wave AC not DC so there is no + - as such. The AR1 switches the AC phase
to match the mainline track.

I'm not an expert on revering loops and on second look you may need to insulate the diverging rails on the turnout
near the car repair barn, just the rails that make the loop.
Only insulate the straight route on the red circled turnout. The two rails that make the loop.
The track where your purple arrow is.
That way the yard and leads to the turntable will be main line powered.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will correct this if I'm wrong.

One other though, once you turn a passenger train you can't go back to the original direction
unless there is a second reverse loop someplace else.
You could use the TT and turn the power and the observation car and run the rest of the cars backwards.
You would have to cut off the baggage and RPO cars and put them behind the turned power.

It's a very interesting layout and you'll no doubt work it all out and seeing the high quality of your other
work , it'll look great.

Magic


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm curious if you have you got any updates on the new railroad?


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

I don't. The original plan was to begin construction after the basement finishing project was done (the rest of the basement). Since the damn-panic, and especially this year, I've been working 60-80 hour weeks so we decided to contract the basement finishing. He was supposed to start in August, but now it's "after the first of the year".

Now I'm seriously thinking about waiting until after I retire... on my 60th birthday which is two years from last Friday. 727 days left, but who's counting.


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## Gramps (Feb 28, 2016)

That's too bad, but better late than never.


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

In the mean time I'll learn how to weather rolling stock. 

I do satisfactory on buildings, but my attempts on RS have been dismal. So much so that I don't dare try a locomotive... yet.


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## OilValleyRy (Oct 3, 2021)

Interesting plan progression. I had similar obstacles.
Glad to see you spaced the layout away from the damp wall. Though you expect that issue to dwindle in time, Murphy loves to throw wrenches around. If you ever need to dig out that backfill yet again, spray rubber coating the exterior foundation wall will make a big difference. That stuff you see on tv with the screen door bottom row boat.

I would suggest, instead of a duck under or lift out near the double doors, to do a swing gate instead, like a dutch door/half door. It could be wired so that the 3 foot of track either side is only energized when the gate is closed. Not only will that be much better on your back & knees, but offers a much easier task when it comes times to replace that water heater of laundry machines etc. A duck under may also pose a danger in the event of a fire, considering it would obstruct the doors. A gate wouldn’t really.

And 18 inch aisles isn’t nearly enough. Mine will be 36 inches, and after testing with cardboard boxes as a mock up, even 36” is a bit tricky for 2 operators to pass. If one has a beer gut, you’ll may need to move to the corner to pass.

I like to make full size outlines on the floor using masking tape. You see this done for kitchen cabinets in new home builds. It gives you a full size mock up that you can walk, can be peeled up & moved, and isn’t expensive. Blue painters tape works best. And you can place storage stuff there to imitate your layout to check for elbow room, multiple operators, chairs/stools for any youngsters, etc.

That interior wall may work well as shelving. A few 1x4s in the voids and drywall around them on one side, and cover the wall entirely on the other side. It’s a nice use of wasted space, keeps things recessed out of the way of shoulders, and 16 inch stud spacing will allow for just about any loco… except maybe a UP Challenger??


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## Stumpy (Mar 19, 2013)

They sprayed the exterior of the block walls with rubber coating when the house was built. I reckon not enough.


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