# Atlas W/Preinstalled DCC?



## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I have a Kato Loco which can accept Digitrax DCC, but I had to convert it's couplers to Micro Trains because the Kato couplers didn't connect very well with other brands. I don't want to convert any more Katos.

I see that Atlas (which has couplers that do work well with Micro Trains couplers) has Locos which come with DCC installed -

http://www.internettrains.com/merch...de=ATL-40000272&Category_Code=NSCLOCDSLATLG4D

Question: Whose DCC do they install and is it compatible with Digitrax? I don't have the Digitrax system yet but that's what I'll be getting and I don't want to buy any trains that aren't going to be compatible with it. But if Atlas is a good loco and has a compatible DCC, I'd probably buy their Loco.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

all DCC decoders are compliant with all NMRA DCC guidelines so the DCC systems will work with them as well. Any company that says they have an engine with DCC equipped qill run with any NMRA DCC compliant system which the Digitrax is.

Atlas, Bachmann, Athearn, Kato, Broadway Limited, BLI, MTH, Proto 1000-2000, Life Like. If it is DCC on board it will work with any system with out any problems with the exception of MTH which does not like to work as well with DCC like it does with DCS.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> If it is DCC on board it will work with any system with out any problems with the exception of MTH ...


OK, that's good. Do you think Atlas N scale engines are as good as Kato? 

Is the decoder in the Atlas made by Atlas (it doesn't say on the description)? I can't find any mention of N scale decoders on their site.

http://www.atlasrr.com/

nor on this model railroad store -

http://www.internettrains.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc

Who's decoder is in the Atlas N scale locos?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Atlas engines will run jsut as well as a Kato if not better. You must realixe that all decoders come from China or Japan and are made in olny a few factorys. Now it is an Atlas decoder but it probably made by Digitrax, Soundtraxx, or ESU as they are the major decoder makers right now. Bachmann decoders are indeed Bachmann decoders but are really a Digitrax decoder that is more expensive and shrink wrapped in black plastic so their is no real difference. Just like Bachmann sound engines use Tsunami or QSI but the boards look nothing like the after market boards do but are the exact same board except for size and shape.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> Atlas engines will run jsut as well as a Kato if not better. You must realixe that all decoders come from China or Japan and are made in olny a few factorys.


Makes sense - thanks. One more question - can a DCC equipped engine run temporarily on a non-DCC setup? Can it just respond to the voltage on the tracks and run until I get the DCC system wired in?

Thanks for your responses.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

xrunner said:


> Makes sense - thanks. One more question - can a DCC equipped engine run temporarily on a non-DCC setup? Can it just respond to the voltage on the tracks and run until I get the DCC system wired in?
> 
> Thanks for your responses.


Now that is a little more rough in terms of clarity. The very early DCC decoders would only run on DCC/AC systems. Current decoders will, I also believe that N scale DCC decoders did not come about till after the compatibility to run on a DC layout so all of the decoders installed in them are DC/DCC compliant so you will have no problems.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> Current decoders will, I also believe that N scale DCC decoders did not come about till after the compatibility to run on a DC layout so all of the decoders installed in them are DC/DCC compliant so you will have no problems.


Interesting. I wonder how the decoder "knows" to run the engine without receiving a coded signal?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

xrunner said:


> Interesting. I wonder how the decoder "knows" to run the engine without receiving a coded signal?


Thats simple as well. In AC/DCC mode the current first off is AC so that the first point the second point is it is a constant max volts to the decoder which also tells it that it is in DCC. The final point is that the AC is a voltage/frequency modulation kind of deal that tells the decoder what to do. It detects DC because it is DC current. Their is not always a constant voltage so it knows it is in DC and their is no frequency modulation thus the decoder reverts to a primitave state and follows just the voltage signals to tell it what to do.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Atlas Loco's and engines, They could come with atlas decoders in them!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Of course they will be branded as Atlas decoders but they are most likely made by a different company. Then again some of the earlier atlas ones had that wierd style plug piece for DCC/DC so maybe Atlas did make their own decoders.


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## TrinityJayOne (Sep 5, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> Thats simple as well. In AC/DCC mode the current first off is AC so that the first point the second point is it is a constant max volts to the decoder which also tells it that it is in DCC. The final point is that the AC is a voltage/frequency modulation kind of deal that tells the decoder what to do. It detects DC because it is DC current. Their is not always a constant voltage so it knows it is in DC and their is no frequency modulation thus the decoder reverts to a primitave state and follows just the voltage signals to tell it what to do.


Excellent explanation!

OP, if it helps I bought a this a few days ago and have been using an NCE Power Cab without issue.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> Atlas Loco's and engines, They could come with atlas decoders in them!


Can you show me where to buy an Atlas branded N scale decoder. I can't find any for sale on their website -

http://www.atlasrr.com/

or at this store -

http://www.internettrains.com/



TrinityJayOne said:


> OP, if it helps I bought a this a few days ago and have been using an NCE Power Cab without issue.


Yea that's cool. I just want to make sure what I'm getting into. Since I don't have much experience with it yet, I ask a whole lot of questions up front. I think it's called being anal-retentive.  So far their putting up with me on the forum.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

xrunner,
Does it really matter what chip set they use? It already has a decoder in it and yes it will work on all different systems of DCC.
Decoders are different in all different loco/engine manufactures, Reason being that one manufacture does not make a decoder setup for every possible arrangement of loco/engine, too costly.
I have installed a lot of decoders over the years and the most common in N was MRC that was because they had sound and control all in one chip set, that has since changed, may different decoder manufactures do that now.
Decoders are all on a standard now that they work with 99% of all the controller makers out there! 
One huge exception is MTH or Mike's Train House! they have several different standards of operating systems that they use, Super confusing in my opinion!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I doubt you will find any branded Atlas decoders and their is no need to as any NCE or Digitrax or Soundtraxx decoder is going to work just as well if not better like in the case with Bachmann.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I think MTH makes decoders for their DCS system as well as DCC. The DCS was originally for O-scale, that's probably where the confusion comes in.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> xrunner, Does it really matter what chip set they use?


I don't know - that's why I'm asking and investigating it.



> It already has a decoder in it and yes it will work on all different systems of DCC.
> ...
> Decoders are all on a standard now that they work with 99% of all the controller makers out there!


You said it probably has an Atlas decoder in it a few posts back, so I take that info and investigate it. I didn't find any Atlas N scale decoders for sale, so that's what I report back to see what people have to say. Even if all the decoders work the same, what discriminates one from the other for the consumer? There are other things to consider in addition to performance - cost and quality are a couple. So, if Atlas did put out a decoder (even if it works the same as other branded devices) there are other things to consider. That's why I investigated the matter. If Atlas had a decoder priced $10 less than other brands, and worked as well, and the quality was OK, then perhaps I would buy one from them. But, they don't seem to sell one.

And remember, if something works in 99% of the equipment out there, I'm that poor slob you may have heard about who ends up buying the 1% that it won't work in ... that's why I investigate things so well. But thanks for the info.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

xrunner,
Atlas does have decoders for HO, Sorry bad assumption that they had one for N too.
Older Atlas engines were made by Kato, and had many different decoders installed.
I do believe that the newer atlas engines are using digitrax decoders!
Yes most stock decoders are the same, or close to the same.
There are slight differences in each decoder, but in N scale they are very very slight!
When you get into the larger decoders then amperage ratings come into play.
What system are you going to run? 
Then I could tell you if it's compatible!
Nothing wrong with investigating, This is one case where the engine is more of the need to investigate than the decoder! If your buying new, then the warranty will cover the engine and the decoder.
Decoder failure rates have dropped off the scale as a source of worry!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> What system are you going to run?
> Then I could tell you if it's compatible!


I was planning on Digitrax Super Chief 5 amp Xtra.

Thanks.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

That will run anything no problem at all.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

xrunner,
Yes digitrax will run all the decoders properly with all of their options! That is why I run my trains with digitrax!
Get a PR3 and programing will be a breeze, It also makes it even more fun to run the trains!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> xrunner,
> Get a PR3 and programing will be a breeze, It also makes it even more fun to run the trains!


Yea I was reading about that too. I want to eventually run the setup from a computer, so I will need that to interface to the layout. I've been looking at several of the computer programs also - JMRI & TrainController. Be a long time before I get there, but I'll get there.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> Thats simple as well. In AC/DCC mode the current first off is AC so that the first point the second point is it is a constant max volts to the decoder which also tells it that it is in DCC. The final point is that the AC is a voltage/frequency modulation kind of deal that tells the decoder what to do. It detects DC because it is DC current. Their is not always a constant voltage so it knows it is in DC and their is no frequency modulation thus the decoder reverts to a primitave state and follows just the voltage signals to tell it what to do.


Well, I got this guy coming this week (with pre-installed DCC) so we'll see what happens here without a DCC system (yet)!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

It will run like a jewel.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

My Dad has a bunch of Atlas Gold Series DCC equipped engines. They are VERY nice.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> It will run like a jewel.


Just got it and it works! It takes more voltage than my other loco to go the same speed right now, is that a quirk of the DCC card running on DC?

The box says the DCC decoder is by NCE -

http://www.ncedcc.com/


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Yes it will consume slightly more power with DCC but you are frgetting this is a different locomotive then you noramlly run so a side by side comparison is kind of wrong in the first place as it will not stand true for all engines. A reason for the decoder using more is it is still powering a chip that must tell the motor and other things what to do and you can also program some decoders on DC as well as on DCC which is a feature that will use some power as well. Voltage is part of the motors issue and the motor most likely uses more voltage to run then your comparison. Amps are what the decoder uses power wise or watts to be super acurate and each DC system also normally states what its max amps are so you will know just how many engines you can run DC or DCC.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> Yes it will consume slightly more power with DCC but you are frgetting this is a different locomotive then you noramlly run so a side by side comparison is kind of wrong in the first place as it will not stand true for all engines.


OK that makes sense. On a side note - do the different brands of locos use different gear ratios?


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

It could be illegal for companys to use the same gears or ratios of another so they may be slightly off or different. A lot of makers are now making switchers with a lower gear ratio so they move slower and more to scale and then higher speed engines with higher rations so at the motors max speed the engine si running close to its prototypical speed.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

The Atlas engine is having problems.

It was having fits and starts while running, like it was losing power. Sometimes it wouldn't even start moving at all. I cleaned the tracks and wheels, and it helped some. Then it was having a high-pitched humming noise above a certain RPM, only in one direction. I took off the shell to see if I could hear it better and the humming went away when run without the shell. When I put the case back on the humming above a certain RPM is back only in one direction.

What is going on?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Xrunner this is not the answer your going to want to hear!
Send it back! If it's using significantly more power than a DC engine, it sounds like there is something binding with the motor, drive train, or gears.
You could go threw the trouble to split it and take it all apart and check every component and make sure it's in right, but why bother if it's under warranty!
Have you rebuilt any N engines? The bearings in them are directional 1/4 of a turn off and they bind! Decoder board put in wrong and they bind! 
Motor mounts misaligned and they bind! Yes they are picky little buggers!
The decoder in a DCC equipped engine does not rob any power when in DC mode over DCC mode. In fact it takes less power to run it!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

It's running OK now. I took off the shell again and loosened and re-tightened the two screws that hold the two halves of the chassis together. I think they were too tight! How tight should they really be? I can see how if tightened too much they can pull the metal frame together beyond what I would think is proper.

Also what type of lubrication do the gears take?


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Wait a minute, now you guys are confusing me -



gc53dfgc said:


> Yes it will consume slightly more power with DCC but you are frgetting this is a different locomotive then you noramlly run so a side by side comparison is kind of wrong in the first place as it will not stand true for all engines. A reason for the decoder using more is it is still powering a chip that must tell the motor and other things what to do and you can also program some decoders on DC as well as on DCC which is a feature that will use some power as well.





NIMT said:


> The decoder in a DCC equipped engine does not rob any power when in DC mode over DCC mode. In fact it takes less power to run it!


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Thousands of DCC installs, repairs, and trouble shootings later!
Lets just say I know what I know!
Exellent save on the binding issue!!!:thumbsup:
Did the power demand go down after your repair?
Very light oil to lube!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> Did the power demand go down after your repair?


I didn't mean to say the power demand was an issue before. All I meant was it seemed to lose power due to something - dirty contacts, wheels, or some weird DCC issue. Then the humming noise. The whole morning was just weird with this thing. Now it seems OK after having futzed with it. I'm not totally convinced the DCC chip got zonked and wasn't operating in a manner to allow pure DC operation. I dunno.

But, how tight should the chassis screws be? You really didn't answer that.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

The screws should just be snug, if you snug them up and the noise comes back then you've got a bearing turned or a motor mount out of alignment.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Xrunner,

you are confused on what I said. I said that the board will use a little more power in DCC mode to run everything because the computer chip in it does more work factoring in things like acceleration and deceleration as well as speed maps and other things which are not needed in DC mode so the board should use less power in DC then DCC. Sean was sayingt he same thing as what I said which was it does not use any more power then in DCC mode in DC and can use less.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I searched for this problem on the Atlas forum, found a thread related to what happened to me. Guy removed the shell and put it back on and it started to make noise. Mine wasn't making noise until I took the shell off and put it back on. I took off the shell because I was troubleshooting the hiccups it was having on the track. I thought maybe the DCC board might not be making good contact. 

After I cleaned the track the hiccups went away but then I had the noise. Must have been caused by some mis-alignment. Jeez! Fussy little bugger.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Yeah N scale can be a real pain to work on and trouble shoot because of its small size which is why I prefer HO.


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

Yeah N scale can be a real pain to work on and trouble shoot because of its small size which is why I prefer HO. 

Somehow double posted hwell: 

So the problems have all gone away now I take it? I was going to say sound like the motor needs a cleaning but its N scale so it could be just about anything.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm returning this engine, because it doesn't run reliably. It will go down the track and just stop for no reason - my other two engines don't do this. I've cleaned the wheels and done all I can - it just acts herky-jerky along the track like some connection inside isn't good.

So far the only brand I haven't had a problem with is Kato.


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Emailed vendor for RMA. Reason: Locomotive runs intermittently on DC system. Vendor writes back -

"Did you know this Loco was DCC equipped? Did you damage the Decoder? I thought N scale decoders weren't dual-mode"

"No I didn't damage it - it's dual mode."



Give me a break. Anyway, they said to return it for a replacement.

I'm beginning to realize many of these vendors don't know much about their products.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

Ring ring...

"Jello this is Abdule Jamali from Train Co. Tech support"

Um.. HI I have a problem with my locomotive I just bought"

"oh yes sir I can help yoo with your problem" What is problem yoo are having?"

Oh yea you see when I put the engine on a DC layout it does not always work, but it works fine on DCC.

"OK sir I can assist you with that problem. Did you turn the power on?"

"yes!"

"OK good, Was the speed of the throttle turned up to a level to move the train... Very common problem with an engine that does not work."

"um yea I know how to run a train. By the way where are you guys located at?"

"India"

You mean "Indiana"?

"No sir, India, yoo train is made in china, sold in America, and tech support is here in India."

OK... well then... how do I fix this?

" I can help yoo with your problem... What is the problem with your engine?


Need I say more?

Massey


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

xrunner,
If you get another and it has the same issues send it to me and I'll fix it right up for ya!:thumbsup:
And I'm here in the good old North American Continent!
See how I worded that as to not tick off my northern friends!:cAnada:


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

NIMT said:


> xrunner,
> If you get another and it has the same issues send it to me and I'll fix it right up for ya!:thumbsup:


Well thanks, but ... what do you think was the problem? I cleaned the wheels many times. When it stopped on the tracks, all I had to do was barely touch the wheels a bit and it would start moving. For example one day I ran it for a long time forwards and backwards and had no issues. Then the next morning the first thing when I started it was it did the herky-jerky. What the hell was going on with it?


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Atlas engines are usually great! Considering you had to monkey with it from the get go sounds like you got a oops from the start!
#1 Reason for jerky operations is dirty track or dirty wheels, you don't have that!
#2 Dirty or bad power pickups, might be why it was binding...probably not.
#3 Bad connections from DCC board to the frame or motor is my choice for what's wrong with it. I've seen it a lot in N scale units it's only a pressure fit and possibly with it binding things just didn't put together right!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

I am with Sean. Probably just something not put together correctly. HO is fine with things being a little loose which is how China builds most of their stuff. Now the second you go down to N scale it needs to be more precise which is something China is not always good at and you also have a higher chance of something going wrong no matter what just because it gets smaller and more complicated. Just something not put on right at the factory or messed up in transit.


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## Massey (Apr 16, 2011)

My only N scale engine would not run when I put it on the rails. It is a Kato DC only engine and i would get the lights on the nose or tail depending on which way I was trying to go but no motor. I popped off the shell and found that the tab that connects the motor to the PC board was not making good contact. I little bendy here and there and the engine runs great. It could be something as simple as that.

Massey


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

Massey said:


> I popped off the shell and found that the tab that connects the motor to the PC board was not making good contact. I little bendy here and there and the engine runs great. It could be something as simple as that.


I was thinking about this today. There are a lot of contacts between the power source and the motor. For example my Atlas loco -

1. rails to wheels
2. wheels to truck contacts
3. truck contacts to chassis rails
4. chassis rails to chassis
5. chassis to DCC board
5. DCC board to motor

All these are simply touch contacts (not soldered). I know all these can't be eliminated but ... that's a lot of possible areas for electrical problems to arise - IMHO. Something has to be re-engineered!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

xrunner said:


> I was thinking about this today. There are a lot of contacts between the power source and the motor. For example my Atlas loco -
> 
> 1. rails to wheels
> 2. wheels to truck contacts
> ...


That is a lot of fail points for electricity. is there a way to solder in wires to replace the pickups from the trucks to the chasis and then to the decoder and just use wire for it. I know it is small so a very small wire would be needed but it would really improve performance.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Gc, 
It's not much of an option to wire any part of it! Between the design and space it would be tough. The weights are also the electrical contacts and they are aluminum and are not able to solder to them!


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## gc53dfgc (Apr 13, 2010)

NIMT said:


> Gc,
> It's not much of an option to wire any part of it! Between the design and space it would be tough. The weights are also the electrical contacts and they are aluminum and are not able to solder to them!


That is quite the predicament. Seems there is just nothing that can be really done to make the connections between everything better.


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## NIMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Actually there is, It's a paste or grease called No-lox, it keeps the aluminum from oxidizing and thus keeps a better contact surface! I do it with all of my Z and N scale decoder installs and tune-ups!
HO too but they are far a few between that need that!


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## xrunner (Jul 29, 2011)

gc53dfgc said:


> That is a lot of fail points for electricity. is there a way to solder in wires to replace the pickups from the trucks to the chasis and then to the decoder and just use wire for it. I know it is small so a very small wire would be needed but it would really improve performance.





NIMT said:


> It's not much of an option to wire any part of it! Between the design and space it would be tough. The weights are also the electrical contacts and they are aluminum and are not able to solder to them!


I disagree with this NIMT.

Here's my list again -

*1. rails to wheels
2. wheels to truck contacts
3. truck contacts to chassis rails
4. chassis rails to chassis
5. chassis to DCC board
5. DCC board to motor*

I see several places for improvement. The decoder can be connected to the motor with soldered wires - currently they are press contacts in the Atlas. In the Bachmann I bought at least the decoder is connected to the motor with soldered wires - it was the press contacts that were failing that connected the decoder to the chassis. So the same goes for the connection between the decoder and the chassis - except if the wires cannot be soldered to the metal of the chassis - then you can simply solder the wire to a very small lug and then connect the lug to the chassis with a small screw <-- that is a very good connection!

I think the same could be done with the connection from the trucks to the chassis. Use very small copper braid with lugs on each end that can be attached with small screws. The trucks do not have to turn 360 deg. they do not even have to swivel much at all really.

All this is something that would have to be re-engineerd by the manufacturer of course. Anything can be improved, all it takes id the will to do so. For example the DCC system. At one time people might have been arguing the same thing -

"There is no room for these control circuits in the trains!" 
"How can it be done - who is going to invest the money!"

Well, now many if not all can be bought or converted to DCC. I just don't buy that these mechanisms can't be improved. So far after getting back into this hobby, I've bought 3 engines and two of them failed. *That's a 66% failure rate.* People - that's unacceptable!


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## deboardfam (Oct 8, 2010)

Just bought my first DCC engine.. Atlas GP35.. Thanks for your info


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