# For 2 Loops: Two new Z100's or one good used Lionel ZW



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

I am planning a two loop layout, and of course, I need to power each loop with separate supplies, but I also need to keep costs down.

I am running *Conventional, Lion Chief, and MTH Proto Sound 2 and 3 locomotives*.
I also plan to use my existing *CW80* to power my switches, etc.

Which would be the better of the following options, or does someone have a better suggestion?

1) 2 brand new MTH Z1000's, for $120 each ($240 Total + Tax), from my local dealer.
2) 1 good used Lionel ZW - 275 watt, for approx. $200 - $250 from a reputable eBey seller.
3) Other suggestions?

Thanks,
Roger


----------



## Prewar Pappy (Jul 26, 2015)

Roger,
To avoid any confusion, you might find the following more suited for your needs.

Invest in a MTH DCS System and the proper transformers. With it you can run everything that you listed.

You can run everything conventional of course. The MTH Proto 2 & 3 are fragile systems as I'm sure you will experience.

I wish you the best of luck.....


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Truthfully, I'd squeeze a bit more out and consider the MTH Z4000. It's a modern transformer that has volt and amp meters, excellent circuit protection, and 400 watts of power.

Second choice would probably be the PW ZW, and you can get them a lot cheaper from reputable rebuilders, no need to pay eBay prices. For the PW-ZW, you need some good in-line circuit protection.

Here's a guy that does excellent rebuilds, you can have that rebuilt ZW for $165: http://www.tranz4mr.com/For_Sale.html#0

There are other folks that do ZW rebuilding as well.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Truthfully, I'd squeeze a bit more out and consider the MTH Z4000. It's a modern transformer that has volt and amp meters, excellent circuit protection, and 400 watts of power.
> 
> Second choice would probably be the PW ZW, and you can get them a lot cheaper from reputable rebuilders, no need to pay eBay prices. For the PW-ZW, you need some good in-line circuit protection.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the comments John,

I really do like the idea of the Z4000, but that is a bit steep for me ($400) regarding where I am in the Hobby. It is, however, a lot better than the ZW-L for $700 and up, for sure.
However, I really the idea of the rebuilt ZW 275 for $165 a whole lot better, but I also don't want to throw away good money after bad.

*Question 1)* Would you mind elaborating on what I would be giving up with the ZW 275 over the Z4000, besides the 400 vs 275 watts differential?
Does the Z400 offer better electronic protection, etc.?
Would I still need to use the diodes to protect the newer locomotive electronics?

*Question 2)* Just curious as to why you not speak to the possibility of the two Z1000's?
_____________________________________________

Also, I poked around a bunch and have found that I can hook up my MTH Remote Commander in passive mode, and run my Proto 3 Loco with other track power just fine. Further, with a double loop layout, and with the two loops power blocked, I know that it is best to have separate power to each loop, hence the duel power source question.

*Question 3)* It then seems logical that I would also need a second track side receiver box for the remote commander so that it could talk to each of the two separated loops. Is this correct?

*UPDATE:* I_ just discovered the Z-4000 wireless emote, and watched a YouTube video on how it works. I know they are discontinued, but found a couple on eBay.
This little item would be an awesome addition to the Z4000 transformer, and would make the Z4000 more interesting to me. it talks directly to the Z4000 transformer, and it has a power cut off for derailments.
Any thoughts on this?_

Thanks again,
Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The PW-ZW really only delivers around 210-220 watts maximum output power, postwar transformers were all rated on their input power. For your circumstance, that isn't really that significant, it will be plenty of power. You will want good circuit protection in series with the ZW as it's single circuit breaker is notoriously unreliable and is only there to protect the transformer, not the load.

The Z4000 offers better circuit protection than the ZW, it has both volt and ammeters for both handles, and of course gives you basically twice the power. Of course, the ZW gives you four variable power supplies, that is handy for some finicky accessories. 

I'd still use a TVS diode across each track feed for any transformer you choose.

I don't mention the Z1000 as I'm pretty unimpressed with the circuit breakers on those, they are a garden variety thermal circuit breaker and are too slow for my liking. The Z4000 has internal electronic circuit protection as well as the thermal breakers as a "faill safe". If you use the Z1000 solution, I'd still want a better circuit breaker for the track feed. For a lower price, you get more flexibility with the PW-ZW.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Of course, the ZW gives you four variable power supplies, that is handy for some finicky accessories.
> 
> I'd still use a TVS diode across each track feed for any transformer you choose.
> 
> I don't mention the Z1000 as I'm pretty unimpressed with the circuit breakers on those, they are a garden variety thermal circuit breaker and are too slow for my liking. The Z4000 has internal electronic circuit protection as well as the thermal breakers as a "faill safe". If you use the Z1000 solution, I'd still want a better circuit breaker for the track feed. For a lower price, you get more flexibility with the PW-ZW.


Thanks again John,

1) When you mention that the ZW has more flexibility, are you referring to the 4 variable outputs, as apposed to the Z4000 having two variable, with one 14 and one 10 volt outputs?
1a) If I will only be running 2 loops (2 trains) Is this a big deal, really?

2) Does the Z4000 put out any better of a sine wave, i.e. cleaner power for the newer engines than the ZW?

3) What circuit breaker would you recommend with the ZW?

4) I just discovered the Z-4000 wireless emote, and watched a YouTube video on how it works. I know they are discontinued, but found a couple on eBay.
This little item would be an awesome addition to the Z4000 transformer, and would make the Z4000 more interesting to me. it talks directly to the Z4000 transformer, and it has a power cut off for derailments.
Any thoughts on this?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Like I said, you can tweak the two variable outputs that run accessories, sometimes they're pretty picky about their running voltage.

The Z4000 and PW-ZW will be sine wave transformers, so that's a wash.

I'd size the circuit breaker to the expected track load. That is very rarely 10 amps as is typical for transformer breakers. Keep in mind that most thermal circuit breakers have a very long trip time at modest overloads. For a single track, unless you have a LOT of incandescent lighted passenger cars, I'd be thinking in the 5 amp range.

The Z-4000 wireless remote is back in production. I have the receiver, and my DCS remote will talk to the receiver. If you don't have DCS, you can use the matching remote or a DCS remote.


----------



## phillyreading (Aug 25, 2015)

I have bought 7 amp breakers from Mouser electronics and TVS units to go with my post war ZW. I like the MTH Z-1000's and am using them with my Williams engines, got a great price(around $60.00 each) at a train show on both my Z-1000's.

Unless you get a really great price and know for sure what you are getting don't use ebay.

Lee Fritz


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Like I said, you can tweak the two variable outputs that run accessories, sometimes they're pretty picky about their running voltage.
> 
> The Z4000 and PW-ZW will be sine wave transformers, so that's a wash.
> 
> ...


I do have the Lionel, Grand Central Express set, all 5 cars, and the MTH, Rigged Rails, Pennsylvania, Madison Passenger car set, again, all 5 cars. I think these are LED, but not sure.

Do you have an actual item number for a good circuit breaker?

Regarding the Z-4000 wireless remote, I just called MTH and they are all out of them and said that this item is not in production, and they don't think it ever will be. Too bad too. Sounds like are really nice item.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Odd, the folks in the back room told us it was going to be revived.

Two have sold within the last three months on eBay for $60 and $71, that would be the complete set with a receiver and remote. Set up a search and wait, one will come by.


----------



## Todd Lopes (Nov 11, 2015)

I have to second what the Gunrunner said about the Z1000 brick transformer circuit breakers. I put a quick blow 10amp fuse in line just to be on the safe side.

Z4000, great transformer.


----------



## HenryL (Nov 20, 2007)

My 2 cents but if you are running conventional the starting voltage of a PW ZW is a bit high. If you have a modern loco like something from WBB they will charge out of the gate. New transformers offer a lower starting voltage with better circuit breakers. That being said, I have my childhood ZW sitting unused for over 20 years. Never used enough to wear out anything. $100 and it's yours.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It's fairly simple to fix the high startup voltage of the ZW, just add a few back-to-back 6A diode pairs in series with the track power. Each diode pair drops the power about .6-.7 volts. If you use five pairs, you drop about 3.0-3.5 volts and have nice slow starting, even with a WBB locomotive. The diodes will cost you a couple of bucks on eBay.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Odd, the folks in the back room told us it was going to be revived.
> 
> Two have sold within the last three months on eBay for $60 and $71, that would be the complete set with a receiver and remote. Set up a search and wait, one will come by.


Would the use of Z-4000 remote make the Z4000 the far better choice over the ZW-275, even at the extra cost?
Seems to me that it would be a really nice set up.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

For a conventional operator, it would allow you walk-around operation, that's typically a huge bonus of command operation.

Of course, you could also buy the ZW for $165, and then shop around for a used MTH DCS system. With the TIU and remote, you would have walk-around conventional running on two tracks and the ability to move to full command operation without buying any more control components. I've purchased excellent Rev. L TIU/Remote packages for less than $200 for the set, they come along occasionally. Add the MTH AIU to your TIU and you have control of up to 10 switches and 10 accessories from the remote as well.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> For a conventional operator, it would allow you walk-around operation, that's typically a huge bonus of command operation.
> 
> Of course, you could also buy the ZW for $165, and then shop around for a used MTH DCS system. With the TIU and remote, you would have walk-around conventional running on two tracks and the ability to move to full command operation without buying any more control components. I've purchased excellent Rev. L TIU/Remote packages for less than $200 for the set, they come along occasionally. Add the MTH AIU to your TIU and you have control of up to 10 switches and 10 accessories from the remote as well.


Lots of food for thought here:
Thanks for giving me a lot of good info to hopefully make a truly informed decision.

BTW, I saw a YouTube video, at the link below, by a retired electrical engineer who is also a model train enthusiast, regarding fast acting circuit breakers with a Lionel ZW 275 transformer. He tested the *EATON Miniature Cable In/Cable Out WMZS 1C03 C-Curve 1, 3, 5 amp breakers.* He found the 3 amp version suitable, with almost instantaneous tripping, and they cost about $9

Here is the link to the video:

http://home.comcast.net/~graz6/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

What are your thoughts?
Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd think the 3A would be pretty lite if you have lighted passenger cars, especially with AC motors. I'd probably opt for a couple of the 5A ones and see how they worked out. There are other sources of magnetic breakers.

Of course, there's also the PSX-AC for the ultimate in protection.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I'd think the 3A would be pretty lite if you have lighted passenger cars, especially with AC motors. I'd probably opt for a couple of the 5A ones and see how they worked out. There are other sources of magnetic breakers.
> 
> Of course, there's also the PSX-AC for the ultimate in protection.


My thoughts exactly, based on the wealth of posts regarding the need for 5A, 7A or even 10A breakers.
However, if you watch his video, he found that with a heavy load, the 5A would not trip when he shorted the track. The train stopped, but upon removing the short, continued on.
Now, I am not sure that what he was doing is a true test, and I would be very interested to know your thoughts on that test.

Thanks,
Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The only reason I can think that the breaker didn't trip with a direct track short is he had high resistance feeds or track joints leading up to the short location. I can short my track with a Lionel PowerHouse 180 that is supplying 10 amps, and the breaker promptly trips. The PH180 has an excellent electronically controlled breaker and will supply 9-10 amps all day to a constant load, so when it trips, I know I have a short.

If you have a derailment that presents a higher resistance due to the way it's sitting across the rails, you can sometimes not trip the breaker, but a deliberate short should certainly do it unless the wiring and/or track presents a high resistance to the current flow.


----------



## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

*Transformers*

Roger,
I agree with Guns on purchasing a Transformer, I have 3 Z4Ks, 3 old ZW's and 2 old KW's that I use on my Power Station. If you belong to the OGR also, which many of due, Jim Lawson rebuilds & upgrades the ZW & KW Transformers better than brand spanking new, you can pick one up from him, for a really reasonable. When you get into the Z4K Transformer range, of course they become more expensive, I piked up 2 of them used, and in perfect operating shape, keep an eye out if you eventually want one. The smallest transformer I recommend for a small layout is the Z-1000, and that is just for a small temp beginners layout.

PCRR/Dave


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Harry Lutz ([email protected]) is another guy that has good prices on used/rebuilt transformers. He will probably be at the Hamburg (PA) Dutch Train Meet next Sunday.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The only reason I can think that the breaker didn't trip with a direct track short is he had high resistance feeds or track joints leading up to the short location. I can short my track with a Lionel PowerHouse 180 that is supplying 10 amps, and the breaker promptly trips. The PH180 has an excellent electronically controlled breaker and will supply 9-10 amps all day to a constant load, so when it trips, I know I have a short.
> 
> If you have a derailment that presents a higher resistance due to the way it's sitting across the rails, you can sometimes not trip the breaker, but a deliberate short should certainly do it unless the wiring and/or track presents a high resistance to the current flow.


I don't know if you stated it already, but what is the best breaker to use, when using a ZW, for modern electronics protection?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The "best", at least IMO, would probably be the PSX-AC electronic board. Next would be a magnetic breaker as they have a very fast reaction time. If you're using a thermal breaker, which are by far the most common, I'd use a lower rated one as they will run for an extended amount of time at considerably over their nameplate ratings.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

I may have gone through this topic too quickly but did the original poster ever 
say if he would be operating by himself or with a friend? I use a Z2000 but it 
is difficult for more than one operator at a time to work my layout. My fault.
It might be better with separate transformers. But like GRJ I like my Z 4000.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

> The "best", at least IMO, would probably be the PSX-AC electronic board. Next would be a magnetic breaker as they have a very fast reaction time. If you're using a thermal breaker, which are by far the most common, I'd use a lower rated one as they will run for an extended amount of time at considerably over their nameplate ratings.


Thanks.
I found the PSX-AC board, but "Magnetic Breaker" is a broad area.
Do you have any specific part numbers or specs to recommend?.



rogruth said:


> I may have gone through this topic too quickly but did the original poster ever
> say if he would be operating by himself or with a friend? I use a Z2000 but it
> is difficult for more than one operator at a time to work my layout. My fault.
> It might be better with separate transformers. But like GRJ I like my Z 4000.


That would be me, and I believe that I would be operating by myself. I am planning to have my grandsons in on the fun, so at some point I suppose that two would very likely be operating at the same time.

There are two separate loops, so that could easily happen.


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

Make sure you position the transformer where more 
than one person can operate it at the same time. 
Then have FUN.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I had a link for magnetic breakers, but I can't find it now. They're normally pretty expensive, these were around $11, so it was a good lead...


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> I had a link for magnetic breakers, but I can't find it now. They're normally pretty expensive, these were around $11, so it was a good lead...


$11 is very manageable for a fast acting breaker. That is a lot less expensive the the PSX-AC board. If you can give me any more info on the type and style, I would greatly appreciate it.

Now with either the ZW 275 or the Z4000, and running two separate loops with two separate sets of outputs, I would think I would need a breaker for each output to each loop. Is that correct?

Also regarding the PSX-AC board, I am having a bit of trouble finding information on it. Would on of these handle more than one input and output, or would two be needed (one for each loop) with it as well?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The PSX-AC comes in single and multi-channel boards. I don't know more than I read about them, but plenty of people seem to think they're the _cat's meow_.

If I find the information on the magnetic breakers, I'll post it.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

BUMPED AHEAD


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> The PSX-AC comes in single and multi-channel boards. I don't know more than I read about them, but plenty of people seem to think they're the _cat's meow_.
> 
> If I find the information on the magnetic breakers, I'll post it.


Thanks John,
I know I am asking a lot of questions, but I want to get this right when I get to all of this part of the layout.

Regarding multiple outputs, the site states one version (-1) with one output. They no longer sell the -2, -3, or -4, but they were simply multiple units not broken off the PCB grouping, and the price was the same for one double as for two singles, so there was not cost break. Now they just brake them all off and sell as separates. That would save on skews, and inventory hassle.

Anyway, I am thinking that two of these will be required, one at each end of a ZW 275 or Z4000 for each of my two loops.

I will have several blocks in each loop, but I plan to wire them all up to the same power supply for that specific loop, and then control each block within the loop with separate SPST (on/off) switches, as I should only need to wire the Hot through the switch since the common is achieved through the outside rail.
*
NOTE: *I will have questions regarding "Star Wiring" for possible future DCS incorporation. I am thinking that I would run the main buss wire to the terminal block, close the switch panel. I would than run each block wire back to the respective switch in the switch panel, then another wire, either colored, or labeled at each end, from each switch out to the separate blocks, using the same length of wire, no matter how close or how far away.
Does that make sense?

So, it looks like approx. $25 for two breakers, vs approx. $80 ($40 each) for two of the PSX-AC units, so the cost would be a consideration, but then these boards even beat a fast blow fuse so that the breaker trips before a fast fuse can even blow. In the end the extra $55 might be cheap insurance against several hundred dollar locatives.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

I am using two ZWs to power 4 tracks (via a DCS TIU) and accessories. I have 10 amp automotive mini-fuses between the transformers and the TIU, but I have been thinking for some time about adding thread neck, panel mount 5 amp circuit breakers. This post prompted me to look into it again. I looked at the PSX-1AC ($55 each), magnetic breakers (around $100 each), thermal-magnetic breakers (around $75 each) and thermal breakers (around $5 each). I didn’t find any thermal-magnetics for anything close to $11 so I’m thinking about going with the thermal breakers. Comparing time/current graphs, the ETA 3300 (thermal-magnetic) trips in about .05 seconds at 10 times rating and the ETA 1658 (thermal) trips in about .5 seconds at 10 times current. The ETA 1658 graph goes no further than 10 times current though so I’m wondering if the trip time continues on a downward slope as current increases or if it levels out abruptly.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> I am using two ZWs to power 4 tracks (via a DCS TIU) and accessories. I have 10 amp automotive mini-fuses between the transformers and the TIU, but I have been thinking for some time about adding thread neck, panel mount 5 amp circuit breakers. This post prompted me to look into it again. I looked at the PSX-1AC ($55 each), magnetic breakers (around $100 each), thermal-magnetic breakers (around $75 each) and thermal breakers (around $5 each). I didn’t find any thermal-magnetics for anything close to $11 so I’m thinking about going with the thermal breakers. Comparing time/current graphs, the ETA 3300 (thermal-magnetic) trips in about .05 seconds at 10 times rating and the ETA 1658 (thermal) trips in about .5 seconds at 10 times current. The ETA 1658 graph goes no further than 10 times current though so I’m wondering if the trip time continues on a downward slope as current increases or if it levels out abruptly.


If I read your post correctly the thermal-magnetic breakers are $75 each as compared with the PSX-AC for $55 each, so why the choice of the thermal-magnetic breakers?


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

If I could find a thermal-magnetic for about $10 to $15 bucks each, I would go with those, but since I couldn't, I'll probably go with the thermal (ETA 1658) breakers for about $5 each.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> If I could find a thermal-magnetic for about $10 to $15 bucks each, I would go with those, but since I couldn't, I'll probably go with the thermal (ETA 1658) breakers for about $5 each.


I can't say for sure at this particular time, but I am thinking that, based on the info gleaned here and other places, regarding the shear nonexistence of any kind of fast circuit breaker for anything resembling a decent price, that when I move ahead with a good duel transformer and build out my layout into two loops, I might just spring for a couple of the PSX-AC units .
I figure that if I can score a nice ZW-275 for under $200, then add two PSX units for just over $100 total, I will have a really good duel power source with very good circuit protection for just under $300 (3/4 the price of a bare Z4000 alone), which seems to make the most physical sense to me.

Any other thoughts on this?


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Airpax Snapak Hydraulic Magnetic Circuit Breaker Switch IEGZX1-30469-3-V 10A 80V for $15

Here's the whole line at Digikey - Airpax SNAPAK Magnetic CB


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Thanks John. I didn’t even think to filter for Magnetic (Hydraulic Delay) because I assumed that Hydraulic Delay meant it would be too slow. But even the slow Magnetic (Hydraulic Delay) breakers are one or two orders of magnitude faster than the thermal breakers. I’ll probably go with a 5 or 10 amp thread neck push-pull.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Yep, I think the small delay is just to prevent nuisance trips, I suspect a true magnetic breaker with no delay would be like a fast blow fuse.


----------



## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Can I ask a question:

This seems to be a lot of engineering to power the layout in question. Last time I checked, Lionel 180W bricks -- stable power, very fast breaker -- cost about $90 each. If you need conventional control, add a TIU or power master, as the case may be, which many of us have. Add the transient voltage suppressors across the rails periodically and you should be good to go. Why go with other power sources or an outdated PW ZW? (I have one too, but I would not use it to power modern TMCC/Legacy or DCS equipment.) 

Anecdotally, I've run 180W Lionel bricks for track power with TVS for years and I don't believe, knock on wood, I've ever had an issue with power damaging or locomotive. (I use the 135W bricks to power switches and accessories.) And the trains run really well too, either conventionally, DCS, or TMCC/Legacy. I would imagine modern quality power sources such as the Z4000 and the new ZW would be equally effective. These are one time expenses that, in comparison to a locomotive purchase, are not that expensive so I am not sure what the fascination is with engineering more complex solutions.
Really just want to educate myself.


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Airpax Snapak Hydraulic Magnetic Circuit Breaker Switch IEGZX1-30469-3-V 10A 80V for $15
> 
> Here's the whole line at Digikey - Airpax SNAPAK Magnetic CB


I tried to find that number but could it would not come up.
I tried to get to it through both there main search, as well as the filtered search.

I did find this one on their site, and it is 10A and 80V, but seems to be a different series, and it is $26 and change, not bad, but clearly different than the one you provided.
They call it Magnetic (Hydraulic Delay) and the part number is *IEG6-1-72-15.0-01-V* and can be found at the link below.

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=IEG6-1-72-10.0-01-V&vendor=723

Also, this is 80v DC, 250v AC.
Doesn't look right to me............


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

All my links work perfectly for me in FireFox and IE11.

Here's a 10A model from the search I did above for $19.80. I have no idea why the links don't work for you.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/R11-2-10.0A-B06CV-V/723-1260-ND/2781049

If the link doesn't work, search on this Digikey stock #: *723-1260-ND*


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Hey rlomba! Don’t be talking trash about my ZWs. I got my first one many years ago. When running conventional, on a fixed voltage track, I like that you can use the handles to control the engine. You can adjust voltage as needed for a variety of accessories. A ZW also costs a lot less than a Z4000 or ZW-L. Maybe the best thing about the ZW is that it is about my age and it still works. Besides, adding a few breakers isn’t that complex, especially when GRJ points you in the right direction.


----------



## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Lehigh74 said:


> Hey rlomba! Don’t be talking trash about my ZWs. I got my first one many years ago. When running conventional, on a fixed voltage track, I like that you can use the handles to control the engine. You can adjust voltage as needed for a variety of accessories. A ZW also costs a lot less than a Z4000 or ZW-L. Maybe the best thing about the ZW is that it is about my age and it still works. Besides, adding a few breakers isn’t that complex, especially when GRJ points you in the right direction.


Not bashing anything. I have a ZW250 from my dad and it's great, but it's old and it is outdated.

My question was really just to understand all the planning and potential solutions for a problem that is pretty easy to address with a Lionel 180W brick (or two), some TVSs, and a variable power controller, particularly given that in the overall cost of this hobby those are reasonably priced pieces.


----------



## Pine Creek RailRoad (Jan 20, 2016)

*Out Dated?*

rlomba8204,

Nothing wrong with a ZW or KW Transformer for powering a DCS/Legacy/LC layouts. Set up correctly they work perfectly at about 1/4 the cost of the ZW-L and about 1/2 the cost of a Z4K. Rich Melvin does a great job of showing how to set the old transformers up for running your DCS in the OGR Video Guide to DCS, the Video is especially good if you are a visual learner. Further Barry's O Gauge Companion book spells it out in detail also. I use and own 3 ZW's and 2 KW's along with our 3 Z4K's. The old 250 ZW runs all my different trains just fine and it has 4 operating channels, DCS, Legacy, LC all run fine with them, just learn how to set them up correctly, and there is no problem. Don't let any con you, your old ZW 250 will work just fine, set up in the correct manner.

PCRR/Dave 

Below you see some test running going on with the different Transformers.


----------



## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

Thank you Dave. I understand how to set up the ZWs with the various command control systems. I decided not to do it any longer when I saw that the trains ran better, in command and conventional, with the bricks and I no longer needed to go with fuses and or breakers. This was just my experience. Perhaps my 250 is tired (although it has been professionally checked over because my kids use it from time to time) or my experience is simply my experience. Take care. Ray

(Edit: Dave, terrific layout. Reviewing the above, it is clear that you just like to have a lot of transformers! Bricks are too dull for you! Take care.)


----------



## rogruth (Mar 6, 2012)

It's not thread drift but a lot has been covered in answering the original question.
That info IS appreciated.

Did the person that asked get a usable answer?


----------



## herkulese (Feb 16, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> All my links work perfectly for me in FireFox and IE11.
> 
> Here's a 10A model from the search I did above for $19.80. I have no idea why the links don't work for you.
> 
> ...


That link worked perfectly.
Thanks for your patience John.

BTW, I just tried those links from your message yesterday, and it is blocked.
But that could by my computer at work. It sometimes blocks things that wouldn't normally get blocked.
Security I figure.

Roger


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Many work computers have issues with lots of links, that's likely the issue.


----------



## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

That was quick. I ordered the breakers and ancillaries from Digikey on Thursday afternoon and they arrived this morning. I'm impressed.


----------



## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Digikey ships like a rocket, they're the fastest folks around. I get my stuff in a couple of days as a rule. They also are very reasonable on shipping, they don't try to double their profit margin on small orders by charging an arm and a let for the shipping.


----------

