# Lionel Visionline Daylight Damaged by Lionel Beyond Repair



## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

Hello, 

I decided it would be worthwhile to share my recent experience with Lionel. I purchased a VisionLine Daylight 4449 from their Concord Mills Retail Store in May 2021. From day one it had the blinking headlight with dynamo smoke on start up. My fixed was to run it a few laps around the layout then trigger the smoke effect and the unit would work fine.

Eventually, I was thinking I should not have to run this engine like that so I called Lionel and the call center rep said it was normal. In addition, I was told to check track voltage. I enformed the rep all my equipment worked flawlessly. Anyhow, I did installed a ground plane thinking that would help the issue. Two days after calling lionel, the dynamo smoke unit would only fire if I pushed ANY button on the cab 2 remote. I called Lionel and sent it to them with a RA.

I received the engine back heavily damaged and not from shipping either. They broke off piping detail off the boiler, the bell was bent up and forward and ready to snap off (these two items are under the boiler on the front of the model), and the real kicker, the foam covering for the dynamo smoke unit was ripped to shreds. In addition, the engines switch cover was just tossed in the box and (may have came loose during shipping) and the pilot had a paint chip.

Nevertheless, Lionel took it back. I did include a page and half letter which did include the use of legal action based on their warranty parameters and devaluing of an asset. Lionel informed the asset was not repairable by them and is mailing me a check for the engine. They had a deskirted gs-4 and a gs-1 but I truthfully only wanted 4449.

I’m happy Lionel offered me a refund, but it is shameful this happen to one of their models.

Zach


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## Severn (May 13, 2016)

Wow. I guess take pics now before sending to verify results, or lack thereof.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

That's a bummer, but at least they didn't tell you to "stuff it".


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

Severn said:


> Wow. I guess take pics now before sending to verify results, or lack thereof.


I immediately sent picks to the customer service email. I don’t have them on my iPad or I would have embedded them in my initial post.


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That's a bummer, but at least they didn't tell you to "stuff it".


Yes, sir. The call center rep from Lionel was in as much disbelief as I was. I believe only one person works in that position so I’m sure there is some off the wall dealings with customers calling Lionel. I’m honestly most shocked with the smoke unit foam cover having been ripped to pieces by them. At least they offered a refund. I’m partial to wonder what they do with the locomotive. I guess it will reappear as a discounted refurbished piece later on on their website.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

From my perspective, this sounds like a disgruntled repair technician that took working conditions out on your model. Perhaps the lone technician was too busy and they are training someone new. These can't be easy to work on, and frankly they need to train more folks in this art. 

When I read these stories I think perhaps we have gone too far in asking for more bells and whistles, more "realistic" features and technology. Sometimes I am just happy to have my Williams diesels plying the layout. 

With MTH gone, Lionel has a golden opportunity to create high end steam. 3rd Rail can too, but not in the volume of Lionel. 

I don't know what you paid for it, but you paid a lot, and the point was to have as realistic of a steam locomotive as possible circa 2021.


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## rrman987 (Aug 29, 2021)

Aren't you glad you didn't post this on that rag magazine forum. Alan Arnold or his ilk would have pulled it and probably banned you like he did me.  Glad GRJ is more lenient, and we can respectfully say our piece without big brother deleting posts that aren't all sunshine and rainbows.  .


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

rrman987 said:


> Aren't you glad you didn't post this on that rag magazine forum. Alan Arnold or his ilk would have pulled it and probably banned you like he did me.  Glad GRJ is more lenient, and we can respectfully say our piece without big brother deleting posts that aren't all sunshine and rainbows.  .


That interesting individual would not let me join his forum in 2020 and a few months ago. In 2020, I had a Guam address because I was working there and it was no dice because of that. Just recently, I used my college email and was denied once again. Oh well, it seems there is money flowing there so he doesn’t appreciate objective discussion. I say that as a long time lurker of that site so take that with a grain of salt.

Zach


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

rrman987 said:


> Aren't you glad you didn't post this on that rag magazine forum. Alan Arnold or his ilk would have pulled it and probably banned you like he did me.  Glad GRJ is more lenient, and we can respectfully say our piece without big brother deleting posts that aren't all sunshine and rainbows.  .


Yep, the ruling dictatorship over there gave me the boot, never gave me a reason why.

Bill


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

Bryan Moran said:


> From my perspective, this sounds like a disgruntled repair technician that took working conditions out on your model. Perhaps the lone technician was too busy and they are training someone new. These can't be easy to work on, and frankly they need to train more folks in this art.
> 
> When I read these stories I think perhaps we have gone too far in asking for more bells and whistles, more "realistic" features and technology. Sometimes I am just happy to have my Williams diesels plying the layout.
> 
> ...


They have to be struggling like a lot of companies. I just feel like Lionel and some hobby shops alike just don’t value their products and the companies legacy. What I wonder is, “How many units are actually BTO and why does it appear the company doesn’t care if it’s a RTR set or a Legacy engine, their QC and warranty repair quality are equally the same.


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## superwarp1 (Dec 13, 2016)

Remember that failure lionel had a few years back the mogul engine. After their so called attempt at repair and or sending it back to china 🇨🇳. I requested and received a full refund. 
Sad what happen to your engine. Ive dealt with Aaron in customer service, very helpful guy, don’t know if he runs all customer support or how many work in repair.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Lionel's quality has been on the downward slide for quite awhile. You are not the first person to send a loco back to Lionel Service and when it is returned it is in worst shape.

Bill


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> That's a bummer, but at least they didn't tell you to "stuff it".


And that's exactly what they told me when I called about my Rock Island 4-8-4, 6-18001...They told me that particular engine was the worst engine Lionel ever made, and I was stuck with it.


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## Lehigh74 (Sep 25, 2015)

Stories like this make me glad I am almost exclusively MTH, even with their current state of affairs.


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## Yellowstone Special (Jun 23, 2015)

Zac, I’m sorry you had to experience this and shame on Lionel. But at least you got your money back. I stay away from the newer Lionel stuff. As a small operator, I run only Lionel command locomotives, all made from the 2003-2013 era. Quality has been good and any repairs that have come up over the years have been handled quickly and reasonably, by an authorized Lionel Service Station, just 35 miles away.


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

It's not easy dealing with a problem. I thought you presented the problem clearly without making it into a rant. Thank you for that.


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## Mixed Freight (Aug 31, 2019)

flyernut said:


> And that's exactly what they told me when I called about my Rock Island 4-8-4, 6-18001...They told me that particular engine was the worst engine Lionel ever made, and I was stuck with it.


At least it's fixable by the average model railroader with a little mechanical aptitude. And parts to fix it are readily available. I'm sure its title as the "worst engine Lionel ever made" has been far surpassed since then.

But of course, if you paid big bucks for it back in the day, I'm fairly certain that doesn't make things any better for you and your experience. I feel for ya'.


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## beachhead2 (Oct 31, 2017)

I sympathize with the OP. 

Regrettably, I entered this hobby at a very bad time for Lionel. In the last 4 years, I've had 5 Lionel RA's and 3 returns for refund. They taught me a lesson. Too much heartache. It really sucks because as a newbie, they're making a ton of stuff in the road names I like. I admire everyone else's patience and ability to tinker but I'll be d_____d if I'm paying a grand for something I have to repair in any meaningful way. It makes me feel like a fool. That's just me. I'm a Gen-Xer and didn't grow up with trains. I have no nostalgia for them or any other company.

On the positive side, I realize the situation is fluid. I think the current company stinks but they'll either turn it around or go away. Until then, I'm enjoying the used Lionel market, Atlas, and MTH custom runs. And the Lionel engines I've picked up on the used market have been great. I like the Legacy system too. Fingers crossed that they get their act together.


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## Millstonemike (Aug 9, 2018)

Thank heaven's I run only prewar and two "bullet proof" Williams Loco.'s


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Millstonemike said:


> Thank heaven's I run only prewar and two "bullet proof" Williams Loco.'s


Thank heavens that I can usually fix most of the issues that come my way, usually less heartburn than sending it back for most minor issues.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

You guys are making feel really good seeing as how Lionel is currently in possession of my new Legacy Pacific I had to send back due to a defective smoke fan out of the box.


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## flyernut (Oct 31, 2010)

Mixed Freight said:


> At least it's fixable by the average model railroader with a little mechanical aptitude. And parts to fix it are readily available. I'm sure its title as the "worst engine Lionel ever made" has been far surpassed since then.
> 
> But of course, if you paid big bucks for it back in the day, I'm fairly certain that doesn't make things any better for you and your experience. I feel for ya'.


I paid $250-275 for it, brand new, in the box, and $125 more to have it repaired, (re-bushed).


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## bigdodgetrain (Jun 12, 2015)

if it is out of warranty contact
mike reagan TW TrainWorx

imo sometime even if it is in warranty


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

bigdodgetrain said:


> if it is out of warranty contact
> mike reagan TW TrainWorx
> 
> imo sometime even if it is in warranty


I thought Mike Reagan joined the new MTH company and is developing a new parts department..

Bill


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't think Mike is doing a lot of repairs nowadays, he's as busy as a one armed paper hanger with the MTH Parts outfit, and he still does stuff for TW TrainWorx.


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## Bryan Moran (Jan 15, 2017)

I communicated this to OGR Forum and he said this forum is full of losers and malcontents and he is glad they have been kicked off “his” forum. He said they get 1,000’s of new members each week and only the losers end up here.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

I wonder which one I am? A loser or a malcontent?


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## davidone (Apr 20, 2015)

This past year I have bought 4 legacy locomotives 2 were missing steps. One had 2 steps in the box the Other had 4 steps missing and not in the box. other than those steps they were the only issues which I corrected. 

I talked to Ryan Kunkle at York about it and the only thing they say is that its a known issue.

Dave


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## neilblumberg (Apr 15, 2019)

"I thought Mike Reagan joined the new MTH company and is developing a new parts department.."

My understanding is that Mike is a contractor/ owner, but not involved in day to day operations of this MTH Parts Company or whatever they are calling it. He is still an employee of TW Trainworx. Don't know whether he is still doing repairs, but his contact information is readily available through Trainworx, last I heard.


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

I believe Mike will still do repairs, maybe turnaround will be a bit slower these days. Back in the day he and his crew could turn an engine around in 30 minutes or less so I suspect repairs don’t put a big dent in his workload.

Pete


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

Hi OGR Forum members! You obviously must be lurking. Thanks for visiting. Years ago when I wanted to join a fourm I found the forums associated with publications were way too narrow minded. I participated in another one, not yours and just was not well received. Not being any fun I left them alone. If you are visiting, there must be something here. The main premise here is that we are not associated with any publication and are just free wheeling.


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## BikerDS (May 1, 2012)

Lehigh74 said:


> Stories like this make me glad I am almost exclusively MTH, even with their current state of affairs.


Since you mention MTH, I would like to share my experience with a GP-35. After I received it, it ran fine for two weeks, then the sound stopped working. I got an RA sand sent it back. It came back quickly (to my surprise) but the sound only worked for 10 minutes. Another RA, another return. When I got it back the next time, it immediately started smoking - electronic smoke. One more RA, and when it got back it immediately went on a shelf to remind me: no more MTH. And after each trip, I'd notice small details were broken or missing.

I don't believe Lionel's repair service is the only one with low QC standards.


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## rlomba8204 (Sep 20, 2015)

BikerDS said:


> Since you mention MTH, I would like to share my experience with a GP-35. After I received it, it ran fine for two weeks, then the sound stopped working. I got an RA sand sent it back. It came back quickly (to my surprise) but the sound only worked for 10 minutes. Another RA, another return. When I got it back the next time, it immediately started smoking - electronic smoke. One more RA, and when it got back it immediately went on a shelf to remind me: no more MTH. And after each trip, I'd notice small details were broken or missing.
> 
> I don't believe Lionel's repair service is the only one with low QC standards.


My experience with MTH factory service, back when they had the Columbia location, was 100 percent polar opposite.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

FWIW, MTH used to use the factory repairs as training fodder for the ASC tech classes.  When I went in for training, we spent one long afternoon fixing repairs that had come in as part of the "training". It was an interesting exercise to see what they get for problems, some were really trivial things, others were four-alarm fires internally.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

We'll see how my new Legacy Pacific turns out after Lionel just had to warranty a smoke fan. I sent it off December 30th and it's scheduled to return Wednesday Jan 19th. As a refresher, it showed up with a broken off number board (broke at the glue joint), pilot truck wheel with a bubble on the contact surface causing a ticking noise while running, tender water tank hatch that won't close all the way, and a squealing smoke fan motor out of the box. The steam chest was loose where it attaches to the frame. While it has great sound (you can select from five different whistles and five different bells, I was disappointed by the lack of detail on the locomotive compared to some of my other Legacy steam locomotives or MTH Premier steamers . I think this is the only steam locomotive I own where the number boards are not illuminated. I have locomotives NIB I've paid half as much for and run just as well and are more detailed. 

After shelling out $1,300 for this locomotive, I'm going to be hard pressed to want to spend that kind of money again for a Lionel product. It's the third new Legacy locomotive I've purchased in the last couple of years that had issues out of the box. Two were steamers and one was a diesel. All three of the issues (other two being a severely bent tender axle and a horribly deformed diesel truck side frame casting) should have easily caught by QC before being shipped.


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

Bryan Moran said:


> From my perspective, this sounds like a disgruntled repair technician that took working conditions out on your model. Perhaps the lone technician was too busy and they are training someone new. These can't be easy to work on, and frankly they need to train more folks in this art.
> 
> When I read these stories I think perhaps we have gone too far in asking for more bells and whistles, more "realistic" features and technology. Sometimes I am just happy to have my Williams diesels plying the layout.
> 
> ...


Bryan,

Yes, it appeared when I received it back that the technician may of been in over their head.

Zach


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

T-Man said:


> It's not easy dealing with a problem. I thought you presented the problem clearly without making it into a rant. Thank you for that.


Yes,

While upset, Lionel was quick to rectify the situation. In all reality, I was having a hard time finding matching passenger cars for the locomotive although a few sets have became available by Lionel on mth on eBay during the time.

Zach


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

Maxum said:


> We'll see how my new Legacy Pacific turns out after Lionel just had to warranty a smoke fan. I sent it off December 30th and it's scheduled to return Wednesday Jan 19th. As a refresher, it showed up with a broken off number board (broke at the glue joint), pilot truck wheel with a bubble on the contact surface causing a ticking noise while running, tender water tank hatch that won't close all the way, and a squealing smoke fan motor out of the box. The steam chest was loose where it attaches to the frame. While it has great sound (you can select from five different whistles and five different bells, I was disappointed by the lack of detail on the locomotive compared to some of my other Legacy steam locomotives or MTH Premier steamers . I think this is the only steam locomotive I own where the number boards are not illuminated. I have locomotives NIB I've paid half as much for and run just as well and are more detailed.
> 
> After shelling out $1,300 for this locomotive, I'm going to be hard pressed to want to spend that kind of money again for a Lionel product. It's the third new Legacy locomotive I've purchased in the last couple of years that had issues out of the box. Two were steamers and one was a diesel. All three of the issues (other two being a severely bent tender axle and a horribly deformed diesel truck side frame casting) should have easily caught by QC before being shipped.


I’m sorry you are having a difficult time. From my experience, a mixed blessing. While this was occurring, I wanted an Alaska RR train to model the wife’s and I honeymoon experience this past summer. She got me a SD70MAC from MTH and I purchased a set on eBay from 2015 NIB consisting a engine and four dome cars from MTH. My first equipment MTH but as a fan of crew talk. I do plan on venturing to own a few more mth products. 

However, I will still buy Lionel, I particularly want an ES44AC in BNSF and I keep missing them.

Zach


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## TrainManZac91 (Dec 26, 2021)

beachhead2 said:


> I sympathize with the OP.
> 
> Regrettably, I entered this hobby at a very bad time for Lionel. In the last 4 years, I've had 5 Lionel RA's and 3 returns for refund. They taught me a lesson. Too much heartache. It really sucks because as a newbie, they're making a ton of stuff in the road names I like. I admire everyone else's patience and ability to tinker but I'll be d_____d if I'm paying a grand for something I have to repair in any meaningful way. It makes me feel like a fool. That's just me. I'm a Gen-Xer and didn't grow up with trains. I have no nostalgia for them or any other company.
> 
> On the positive side, I realize the situation is fluid. I think the current company stinks but they'll either turn it around or go away. Until then, I'm enjoying the used Lionel market, Atlas, and MTH custom runs. And the Lionel engines I've picked up on the used market have been great. I like the Legacy system too. Fingers crossed that they get their act together.


Hello,

I know it’s aggravating. Luckily, there is a bulk o stuff floating the market. I’m not sure when Lionel went LED in it’s diesel, maybe 2014. I would say around that point was when I fell there was an important in legacy performance. I only had one sd70ace that I needed to install a new smoke unit on.

Zach


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

Update to my issue with my new Lionel Legacy Pacific. It just showed up from Fedex. When I read the repair sheet from the tech, I was kind of surprised. He couldn't get the smoke fan to squeal, so he sent me another Pacific. I test ran it and no issues. The only thing was when I was putting it on the track, this fell out of the locomotive. It's not a gasket. Any idea where it goes?


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

Maxum said:


> Update to my issue with my new Lionel Legacy Pacific. It just showed up from Fedex. When I read the repair sheet from the repair tech, I was kind of surprised. He couldn't get the smoke fan to squeal, so he sent me another Pacific. I test ran it and no issues. The only thing was when I was putting it on the track, this fell out of the locomotive. It's not a gasket. Any idea where it goes?
> 
> View attachment 575674


Looks like a window frame.


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

lou1985 said:


> Looks like a window frame.


Bingo! We have a winner. Dunno how I missed that.


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## Desperado (Mar 14, 2021)

FWIW I sometimes think about how hard would it be for Lionel to build retro versions. No sound boards, no fans, no special smoke chambers. Just go back to the old tried and true? Yes, I would like a smoke option - pellet or liquid; and some decent lighting. But really how hard could that be? They designed the stuff in the first place. Doesn't have to be cast iron, but to my mind they could reduce price and problems. 

I would be a big fan of bringing back the - let's say a catalog of re-makes from the 1950's and 60's. Obviously that would not be their entire output - but having reduced options for lower price and better dependability - to me would be worthwhile. Just my opinion is all.


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## seayakbill (Jan 16, 2016)

Desperado said:


> I would be a big fan of bringing back the - let's say a catalog of re-makes from the 1950's and 60's. Obviously that would not be their entire output - but having reduced options for lower price and better dependability - to me would be worthwhile. Just my opinion is all.


So you would want to return to Pulmore motors, mechanical E units, and magnatraction.

Bill


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## Norton (Nov 5, 2015)

Desperado said:


> FWIW I sometimes think about how hard would it be for Lionel to build retro versions. No sound boards, no fans, no special smoke chambers. Just go back to the old tried and true? Yes, I would like a smoke option - pellet or liquid; and some decent lighting. But really how hard could that be? They designed the stuff in the first place. Doesn't have to be cast iron, but to my mind they could reduce price and problems.
> 
> I would be a big fan of bringing back the - let's say a catalog of re-makes from the 1950's and 60's. Obviously that would not be their entire output - but having reduced options for lower price and better dependability - to me would be worthwhile. Just my opinion is all.


They did that in the 2000s, Post War Celebration and Conventional Classics. They were very popular then around 2010 they announced no more for whatever reason. Williams has done a lot of reproductions too but you don’t see a lot of that today either. Most everything can be had on the auction sites though.

Pete


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

Desperado said:


> FWIW I sometimes think about how hard would it be for Lionel to build retro versions. No sound boards, no fans, no special smoke chambers. Just go back to the old tried and true? Yes, I would like a smoke option - pellet or liquid; and some decent lighting. But really how hard could that be? They designed the stuff in the first place. Doesn't have to be cast iron, but to my mind they could reduce price and problems.
> 
> I would be a big fan of bringing back the - let's say a catalog of re-makes from the 1950's and 60's. Obviously that would not be their entire output - but having reduced options for lower price and better dependability - to me would be worthwhile. Just my opinion is all.


They did that. It's called Postwar/MPC/LTI/Postwar Celebration/Conventional Classics. It's all over the used market and cheap. 

I've said this a thousand times: you don't need to buy everything new out of a catalog.


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## SDIV Tim (Nov 19, 2015)

I had to rip someone’s head off a few months ago when I sent my 3751 in. The chords we’re mangled and I suspect that will happen to my 3759 when I get it back.

I’m not happy about Lionel not taking care of our trains and the sad part is shipping is the main problem. They pack the engines back in the shippers for the repair techs then it’s packed by the shippers to the box and so on and so forth. So if they don’t pay attention closing the foam. That is where the damage starts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

SDIV Tim said:


> I’m not happy about Lionel not taking care of our trains and the sad part is shipping is the main problem. They pack the engines back in the shippers for the repair techs then it’s packed by the shippers to the box and so on and so forth. So if they don’t pay attention closing the foam. That is where the damage starts.


Even being packed in a shipper box, the contents take a beating. I'm tired of my locomotives showing up via USPS, UPS, Fedex with the shipper box having a big gash, hole in it, or smashed on one side with corresponding damage to the locomotive box. I cringed at having to recently send a locomotive back to Lionel for repair. The shipper and locomotive box made it to me from the dealer relatively undamaged. Sure enough, on return from Lionel one corner of the shipper was crunched and so was the corresponding corner of the locomotive box. I wish the shipping companies would take better care of boxes labeled "fragile". Another thought, what about having a shipper box lined on all the way around inside with an inch of foam? I'd be willing to pay an extra 5$ a locomotive for a shipper box like that to protect a $1,300 locomotive. I think manufacturers fail to realize that most of us purchase online since LHS are few and far between anymore.


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## lou1985 (Oct 24, 2019)

Well if the box is damaged, and the locomotive isn't, then isn't the box doing its job?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

The key to less shipping damage is actually not that complicated. If you put a locomotive in the factory box, just pick it up and shake it vigorously in all axis. If nothing is moving, you have a good chance of it coming through unscathed. The one area that take a lot of damage does require a bit more care, that being the front pilot on many steamers. I make sure those don't take the load on a front drop impact.

I recently got an upgrade in the factory box, the factory shipping box, and an additional box with about 3" of hard foam around it. You'd think it would be in great shape! You'd be wrong, it was loose in the factory foam and the pilot was broken off! 

This isn't rocket science guys, it's possible to ship without carnage!


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## Maxum (Apr 10, 2017)

lou1985 said:


> Well if the box is damaged, and the locomotive isn't, then isn't the box doing its job?


Yes and no. Yes the locomotive is not damaged (not always the case in my experience). But having an intact undamaged box increases the resale value of the locomotive. Whether it's me or my heirs, someone someday is going to have to sell all my stuff.


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## Drwinstonoboogie (12 mo ago)

TrainManZac91 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I decided it would be worthwhile to share my recent experience with Lionel. I purchased a VisionLine Daylight 4449 from their Concord Mills Retail Store in May 2021. From day one it had the blinking headlight with dynamo smoke on start up. My fixed was to run it a few laps around the layout then trigger the smoke effect and the unit would work fine.
> 
> ...


one of the reasons - I don'tlike their new warranty policy!


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