# Help - tranformer power frequencey questions



## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

Really confused and I need some help,

This Christmas my mom bought a Lionel Pennsylvania flyer O gauge set for my son. Trick is I live in Malaga Spain, I'm originally from upstate New York. My son is only 4 years old and for as much as he loves trains, as interested in it as he will be has yet to be seen. Well to go on, we took the set from New York back here to Spain. Of course I knew the 220v / 50 Hz vs the 110v / 60 Hz would be a problem. So I put off setting it up, but the boy wouldn't forget. So one day did as I planned, used This step down 220/230V - 110/120V converter which is rated up to 1600 watts with bad results. The starter set came with a Input 120VAC, 60 Hz - Output 18VAC, 40W (60hz)transformer. Can't say I saw smoke but 5 days later the transformer stills smells like burnt electrics. The step down unit still works fine on other equipment.

So my son is still depressed about the whole ordeal, still pushing around motionless freight cars around the floor. I have to figure this out. Simplest for me would be to order This transformer as a replacement. Read a blog that Märklin transformers work on Lionel tracks and locomotives. Extremely hesitant though. Also read AC 3 rail locomotives don't work on 2 rail DC transformers even if wired correctly. The 40W transformer on 3 rails was barely sufficient for 5 train cars 3 of them with accessories + a smoke generator and whistle on the locomotive. When it was up and running in New York at times it needed a nudge to get it moving. Also safe to assume the locomotive is AC, definitely 60Hz, which kills accessories on a 50Hz transformer. I cant find any specifications for the Märklin transformer beyond 32 volts output and the name - 230 / 32 VA-D-H0, 230 being the volts and afraid the H0 at the end means it was meant for half-O gauge and not O. Also, if output is dc, it might kill the Locomotive as well as having a questionably fried original transformer to boot, never mind the wasted money. 

It was a simple gift from his grandmother and have a hard time justifying $500 on inverters and power supplies, which I read about here. And that link is for UK not Spain, same electricity, different mains plugs. I don't want to do more harm than already has been done, however this is for my son and a temporary solution would be best. 

Any advise would be extremely appreciated, thank you


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Any AC transformer that is variable from 5V to 18-20 volts will work fine for the Lionel set.

The problem here is you have 50 cycle power, which is probably why your transformer overheated. Also, the cheap "converter" you used probably didn't help.

You need a real step-down transformer, something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Simran-THG-...ravel_Adapters_Converters&hash=item337d79da0b

If you had that, you can use a Lionel PW transformer like the 1033, 1034, etc. Those are more tolerant of 50hz current.


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## timlange3 (Jan 16, 2013)

Try contacting Lionel directly, email, and let them know what you have and see what they recommend.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

finally found this description of the Marklin transformer

1 Marklin 66470 AC Transformer 230 Volt 32 VA for H0 and Gauge 1

Recommended retail price by Marklin: 109.95 Euros. Our price: 92.95 Euro only.

230 Volt / 32 VA with infinitely variable speed control and connection for electric accessories. The perfect transformer for conventional AC operation of a Marklin H0 or a Gauge 1 railway set.

The track voltage can be adjusted between 4 and 16 volts. The accessory voltage is 16 volts. Plastic housing. Dimensions 120 x 140 x 80 cm / 4-3/4" x 5-1/2" x 3-1/8". VDE tested. The transformer is only to be used indoors.

Technical details of the transformer: Input voltage: 230 Volts 50/60 Hz, Output voltage: 16 Volts AC, Output current max. 2.0 amps AC, power output: 32 VA.


Confirms it's for AC operation. But the h0/ Gauge 1 specification still is making me wonder, Thank you so much. I'll try contacting Lionel, I know they toured Marklin's facilities not too long ago, but it's been decades since they have dabbled in the European market.


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## Kwikster (Feb 22, 2012)

As long as it's proper voltage output, scale will not matter. The key is that the input and outputs meet your needs. Which it sounds like they do. My math fails me, but my only concern is that it may be a touch small for your needs. If I'm correct, 32va = 32 watts which is way too small. 1033 is 90 watts.

Carl


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

You want more than 32 watts, boy is that stuff expensive over there!

I still think you might be better off with the stepdown transformer I linked and a standard PW Lionel transformer, probably cheaper.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

I have done more digging and it seems an sine inverter is basically a necessity. I might go this route - I am picking the smaller step down only because weight is a factor as all this has to be shipped from New York to me here in Spain. Just the step down you mentioned is 5+ pounds. Id love a solid heavy duty step down transformer, but just saw one that weighed 17 pounds. If there's a weak link it's there. But I need to keep any one item under 4lbs maximum, packaging everything included. A 2lb - 3lb step down would be ideal.
1) $25 This step down 300Watt Step Up/Step Down Voltage Converter. Converts 110V to 220V/240V OR Converts 220V/240V to 110V - gets the 220 down to 110 ( 3lbs) next ..
2)  $16 This adaptor Allows high power 12V DC items to operate on 110v AC power.
3) $24 Lastly the 300 watt modified sine wave inverter. INPUT VOLTAGE: 10.5-15V DC : OUTPUT VOLTAGE:115 VAC RMS +5% / -10% FREQUENCY: 60 Hz

Put together, should produce a true 115v 60hz power source for $65. get the items here, be sure the original transformer truly won't function, if not, I'll have the means to upgrade from a Lionel 40w powermax transformer to a cw80 80w or stick with a replacement of the original without a hitch. at least I do believe it's worth a shot. I saw posts where people reported that Lionel technicians insisted on a 60hz frequency. Would this work?

PS everything is more expensive over here, gas 2X's more, food 2X's more, and don't get me on the price of lobster. But remember a lionel cw80 80w transformer retails at lionel.com at $143.99 in the states new - ouch. Thanks again


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, neither of those is a true sine wave converter, they're both electronic models. The key is a real transformer for several hundred watts is heavy!

The last two are 12V switchers that step up to 110V, so you have to have 12V to power them at the appropriate power.

I have no idea if one, or any of them will work properly with your transformer.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

What gave me the idea was this post. 

Seems someone was in the same position as me. Blew his transformer. He simply sacrificed a laptop power supply chord, capped the 5v dc lead and connected the 12v dc lead to the Go Power Sine Inverter. He still had to get a new transformer, but point is, he only paid +/- $150 in electrical components to get lionel working on 220/50, including a new transformer.

I thought I would keep things safer by converting 220-110, and then using the adapter to get the 12v dc power, then stepping it back up again to 110/60hz. But I do have an extra laptop power supply here somewhere, that might be an option also. The intentions of the 1'st 2 items was just to create 12v dc power from 220v mimicking basically a laptop mains chord, to lead to the inverter. 

Thank you again


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Well, the CW-80 had a known issue with 50hz power, so I'm not sure it's the same issue.

I can't see any reason to go to the extra 12V step, I'm sure that there are local places to buy a 220->110 transformer, that's a very common problem in Europe.


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

The good step-down transformers weigh like 10-20 lbs (4-8kg). The little ones like pictured above will last maybe 30 minutes and then burn out. They're really only good for very occasional use.

I lived outside the US for a couple of years and used Simran converters in 500, 750, 100, and 1500 watt varieties.

http://www.amazon.com/SIMRAN-Step-D...822822&sr=1-13&keywords=step+down+transformer


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

As I said, he needs a real transformer like the one you linked.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

Problem seems to be finding one,

the one on ebay in the states is $98 in shipping + the import taxes through customs would probably be another $150. Considering this one, it's the best I can find through ebay here in Spain. www.amazon.es has nearly nothing

thanks again


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'm not sure what to tell you. I really think you're not going to be happy with the electronic editions, and converting the 230 to 12 and than the 12 back to 115 just seems nuts to me.


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

I have a bin of unused Laptop power supplies. They take 120/60 or 220/50 AC and turn it into 19.5V DC. One of them has 1.8 amps (~110 watts) output while another has 2.9 amps (185 watts) output.

I wonder if a laptop power supply would work or if it would it fry the controller?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Uhh, time to check your math!

19.5V at 1.8 amps is 35 watts, and the 2.9 amp model outputs 56.55 watts. When you figure the conversion efficiency of the 12V to 115V step, you'll have barely enough power to move the locomotive!


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> Uhh, time to check your math!


Sorry I was thinking 110V.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

It makes a difference.


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## feldon30 (Dec 30, 2012)

You probably just saved me blowing a bunch of LEDs.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

Just going to order that 300 watt tension step down unit I linked above, and hope this transformer isn't fried. Though I know with a 12v auto utility socket an inverter can safely pull 150 watts without harming the car's electronics, any more and it has to be connected directly to the battery. Connected to a battery I've seen them run blenders and even microwave ovens (with good invertes of course). So it makes sense a 5-6amp 12 volt adapter feeding a 300/400 watt inverter (a Linoel cw80 pulls 5 amps at 19 volts = 90~95 watts, but I have a 40 watt powemax transformer, half that) could produce enough 115/60 power to smoothly run this set at the right Hz., the idea seems valid, guess this guy was working on HO or maybe even smaller, skipping a step down transformer totally and just using a laptop lead.

anyway hope lionel's made in china with american engineering is better than my experimenting and the controller isn't fried, can't tell my 4 yr. old boy Santa (I) screwed up, this set was the highlight of his Christmas.

Thanks for everything

Edit: he was using a cw80, I apologize. How did he get it to work, for curiosity's sake?


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I'd think 150 watts from the lighter socket would be pushing your luck, that's in excess of 12 amps! Many lighters are fused for 10 amps...


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks for the info,  only takes 17 gauge wiring to pull 15 amps (peak load), smallest gauge being 22. Avg fuse is 15 amps, some 10, some are 20.

and thanks again for everything, I'll be back once I have an answer. You saved me a lot of wasted money so far. Especially in that marklin transformer.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Hopefully, you can find a good solution. I'm convinced that the 220->110 stepdown transformer is the best solution, getting the car involved seems like it could turn into a large problem.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

haha,

Put so many hours into this,just want to get it right. If I was paid $10 an hour, already way over $500. anyway, theoretically, to actually get 60hz power. found this. It can go from 120v ac to 15 amp 12v dc outputting up to 200 watts. supplying a 300 or 400 watt sine inverter, sounds sufficient enough to power a 40/80/90 watt device at 60hz, with room to expand in the future may be it. Haha, 1'st step is first, and that's make sure the transformer isn't fried. If it is, all this is going to be 1 big problem, and the set is going to go on a shelf for decoration most likely.

I understand at 110v/50hz, in any event the set should operate, just read dozens of threads now, people and lionel technicians saying how important 60hz is with most all transformers.

PS - Did order this step down, it looks promising, and here.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Note in the description: _modified sine wave_

Not sure what that means other than it's not a pure sine wave.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

A modified sine wave inverter can adequately power some household appliances and power tools. Virtually all low cost inverters are "modified sine wave". A modified sine wave is easier and cheaper to produce than a sine wave inverter. 

They usually lack many features such as auto-start or any type of tweaking ability. The devices are usually about 70% efficient, so expect some significant power losses if you are using a modified sine wave inverter in your system.

A sine wave inverter is designed to replicate and even improve the quality of electricity supplied by utility companies. To operate higher-end electronic equipment, a sine wave inverter is recommended. Efficiency has reached up to about 94% and the electricity from these devices is of a higher quality than grid power almost anywhere in the world.

Both produce 58-62 Hz frequency however


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I know what a modified sine wave is, however in your application, my point is I don't know if that's going to do the trick.


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## Irishgi (Jan 30, 2013)

I was thinking the other day about this thread and how I never followed up on it. It's been so long. Bottom line is, I got it working. all accessories, the higher cw-80 transformer, everything, even with headroom. And yes I did it the hard and expensive way. 
I converted 220ac 50hz. first to 110ac 50hz with a real (industrial) 500 watt converter. Then knocked it to 12 Vdc with a max of 200 watts (with the max burton converter). Then back up again through the 300 watt GoPower! pure sine wave inverter. 
As long as things will never peak over 200 watts that set-up is fine to replicate 110v 60hz electricity* exactly *(due to the "weak link" of the 200 watt 12v converter). It's been running like a top for nearly 2 years.

I guess I could have gone straight from 220ac 50hz to 12vdc and then used the inverter. But "specialist" hobby parts here are rare and pricey. People here don't really have a need to plug 12v dc electronics into grid current other than laptops and cell phones. Nothing that draws more than 20 watts. To do that would have required equipment costing in the hundred of euros (ie - model airplane battery re chargers). So what I did was merely cheapest.

Only hitch I had was splicing a utility (cigarette lighter) adapter on the inverter. I guess Gopower! thinks a 300 watt inverter shouldn't be supplied with that type of cable as 300 watts would most assuredly blow any car fuse. They included car battery cables only. the cables were huge (though short) but an adapter did fit and all is well. Didn't want to cut the ends off the 12v converter. Though both the 12v converter and the 110vac inverter here are useless. The 12vdc converter needs 110vac electricity to run, and the inverter only supplies 110vac in a 220vac country.

At least my son is getting more lionel things this X-mas. 

Thanks.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Very interesting thread. The solution sure does seem to make
a trip around the world to simply get a 14 volt AC power on
those tracks.

Are there no Euro manufacturers of transformers adapted
for your 220 50 cycle current? Is that current not common
on the Continent?

And I have a question for GunrunnerJohn.

If a Euro transformer were found and used, how would
the Lionel 60 cycle AC loco motors react to 50 cycle
current?

Don


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Motors would tend to run hotter on 50hz than 60hz, the reactance of the windings is lower, hence more current at the same voltage settings. It's the same as running 60hz transformers in Europe, you end up de-rating them.

Here's a good link on the topic: Supply Voltages and Primary Windings for Power Transformers

YMMV


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