# What is a "Small" Steamer?



## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

Passenger Train Collector’s thread on the best looking small steamer made me stop and ask, “What is a small steamer?” When is it too large to be small anymore? Clearly, there is no answer everyone would agree with, and I’m perfectly okay with everyone and anyone having a different opinion: Your Railroad – Your Rules and all that.

So I will just put down what I think: I see two reasonable, easy to apply, and practical ways to define “small” O-gauge locos. And I

Less than a foot long (sans tender - just the loco).
Less than half the length of the longest O-gauge loco (again, sans tender). That is a Big Boy. Mine is 26 ½ inches long. So, 13.25 inches.

I decided on the latter rule for my layout: 13 ¼ inches long. Why? Because the Legacy Southern Crescent is that length, so it makes the cut. I have always considered it right at the demarcation line between small and big: I’ve referred to it often as either my largest small loco and sometimes as my smallest large loco. 

Here it is (below) next to the Legacy 4-6-0. (By the way, that is a Southern Crescent - mine’s been repainted – I found the red and green a bit garish). This Pacific is longer that the 4-6-0 (11.375 inches), but the 4-6-0 is a scale 5 to 6 inches taller at the cab roof and 4 of so at the boiler, and looks more muscular in places. Still, the Pacific is a bigger loco, but "small," particularly if you pair it with a smaller tender (at the bottom, from the Legacy 0-8-0, as I sometimes run it). 








I measured all my small scale locos at they are:
Length - Locomotive
8.0 4-4-0 Lionel Lincoln Funeral Train
8.5 0-6-0 Lionel Dockside Switcher
9.0 0-4-0 Lionel “Shifter” 
9.0 2-8-0 MTH PRR Consolidation
9.5 4-4-0 MTH NYC&HRRR 999 9.5
10.0 4-6-0 Lionel Legacy
10.3 4-6-0 Lionel Camelback 
10.5 0-8-0 Lionel Legacy 
11.0 2-6-2 Darstead LNER tank engine
11.25 4-4-0 Lionel Atlantic 
13.25 4-6-2 Lionel Legacy Southern Crescent 
13.75 2-10-0 MTH BR43 (this is a 1:43 model, and thus was actually a smaller loco in the real world than the Southern Crescent, but it looks big to me, and I treat it as big.

*I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT OTHERS THINK IS A "SMALL" STEAM LOCO.*


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## JDaddy (Jun 8, 2011)

I would classify a small steamer as any steam engine with a "light" boiler


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

This should be interesting. I consider 6 drive wheels or less small. But, there are exceptions-UP had 'Heavy Pacifics' which were massive. 

My other criteria-models that are easy to 'loose' in the collection.


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## njrailer93 (Nov 28, 2011)

i would consider saddle backs small like the docksiders. also the porters. i really wish someone would make an o scale porter!!!


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## bill937ca (Jul 18, 2014)

The quintessential small steamer would probably be the 2-4-2 Columbia, the locomotive of many a Lionel post-war starter set. They are frequently referred to as Scout locomotive and it had very limited pulling power, maybe three or four cars. As far as I can tell the prototype was mainly a narrow gauge engine.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

I agree that the Pacific is the demarcation between small and large. You can argue that it is both. As 85TA stated, "Heavy" Pacifics are quite large. I think my K4 Pacifics are just over the line to large. Yet the "Light" Pacific class could be considered small. My small Steam engines include:

1.	Pennsylvania A5; 0-4-0
2.	Pennsylvania B6 switcher: 0-6-0
3.	Pennsylvania D16 American; 4-4-0
4.	Pennsylvania E6 Atlantic; 4-4-2
5.	Pennsylvania G5 Ten Wheeler; 4-6-0
6.	Pennsylvania H3 Consolidation (19th century) ; 2-8-0
7.	Pennsylvania H10 Consolidation; 2-8-0
8.	Baltimore & Ohio Dockside Switcher


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## Ricky Tanner (Sep 19, 2015)

I would divide them up as x-small/small/medium/large/x-large

x-small: 0-4-0T,0-6-0T (Tank locomotives,fireless cookers)

small 0-4-0,0-6-0,0-8-0,2-6-0.2-6-2,4-6-0,0-8-0,2-8-0

medium 4-6-2,2-8-2,2-10-0 (Russian decapods),4-8-0,0-10-2 (DMIR switcher)

large 4-6-4,2-8-4,4-8-4,2-10-2,2-10-4,4-12-2,2-6-6-2

XL - 6-8-6(S2),4-4-4-4(S1,T1),2-6-6-4,2-8-8-0,2-8-8-2,2-10-10-2,4-6-6-4,4-4-6-4(Q2),4-6-4-4(Q1),4-8-8-4

Of course there are many exceptions. But this is my take on the subject.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2015)

What an excellent follow-up thread, Lee. For me,* I like the simplicity of the 12" rule* (my rule) in O-Gauge.

The motivation behind my thread was I was going through my photo files on the computer and I came across the picture of our ten-wheeler. The photo was taken many years ago as you can tell from the lack of scenery and ballast in this area of the layout. 

Most of the steamers we own are the mid-sized to larger versions. When the catalog came out listing the C&O ten-wheeler, it was a must have. 

Thanks Lee for taking this subject to a new level.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

I use the measurements of both the locomotive and tender, so here's my "small" steamer.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

It may be small GRJ, but it looks like it smokes like a big boy.


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

PatKn said:


> I agree that the Pacific is the demarcation between small and large. You can argue that it is both. As 85TA stated, "Heavy" Pacifics are quite large. I think my K4 Pacifics are just over the line to large. Yet the "Light" Pacific class could be considered small. My small Steam engines include:
> 
> 1.	Pennsylvania A5; 0-4-0
> 2.	Pennsylvania B6 switcher: 0-6-0
> ...


What is neat about Pacifics is the difference in size among various types - I agree with you there is a big difference. I was surprised several years ago but the difference: the Legacy Southern Crescent is much smaller than the Legacy Blue Comet, both Pacifics and both on the same page in the Lionel Catalog back several years ago. I had assumed they would be the same size. Not so, the Blue Comet (and the similar sized Alton Pacific) are much larger: no one would call them "small."


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

GRJ, Gotta get me one of them.


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Pat, that's the one I converted to TMCC and added chuffing smoke. Couldn't figure how to get sound into the little coal car, so you have to do with track noise.  It really is a smoker, it has a fan driven smoke unit that practically fills the little locomotive.


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## Dano (Aug 26, 2012)

As Einstein said, it is all relative.


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## Cycleops (Dec 6, 2014)

I didn't know Einstein was into trains.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2015)

*"I didn't know Einstein was into trains."*

Yes he was and particularly liked O-gauge trains.


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## J. S. Bach (Sep 20, 2015)

You did say small steamer, didn't you?


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

The Union Pacific 4-6-2.


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## PatKn (Jul 14, 2015)

Fantastic detail on that UP. :thumbsup:


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## Lee Willis (Jan 1, 2014)

that is one cool model, I love it?

Kohs?


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## T-Man (May 16, 2008)

I never had a definition for small, if I did it would have 4 drive wheels. Most of mine have six. My other size is "Too Big" for O scale standards curves.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

How about this engine that I ran at the Pioneer Tunnel in Ashland, Pa. for three summers. It's a 0-4-0 Anthracite burning saddle engine,( water in a saddle tank over the boiler). MTH has done these in the past. 

Pictured here with my MOM....










There was a coal bunker in back but was not attached, we stopped engine and shoveled coal...










Adding water to the saddle tank...


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Neat little locomotive, do you happen to know what MTH called it? The smallest one I find on the MTH search is the Docksider like mine.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

GUNS,
MTH has it as a Dockside switcher. Theirs had the coal bunker in the back.

Check it out here...

http://mthtrains.com/30-1243-0


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

Yes JOHN that's the one. Ours was similar save for the coal bunker. This particular engine was used in the coal fields to move the coal that came up from the mine, move it to the Plane, to get crushed in the breaker and classified, later to be loaded onto hoppers. Funny thing about this engine was that when I was growing up in Hazleton, Pa., my neighbors who were brother ran this engine and another similar to it. Talk about a small world? What are the odds of that? 50 years later!


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

This is one I converted to TMCC and added an electronic smoke control so the smoke stops running when it stops. Someday I want to add chuffing smoke to it.


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## laz57 (Sep 19, 2015)

gunrunnerjohn said:


> This is one I converted to TMCC and added an electronic smoke control so the smoke stops running when it stops. Someday I want to add chuffing smoke to it.


That really would make that engine look real. :appl::thumbsup::smilie_daumenpos:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

One day...


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## Frisco Firefly (May 17, 2012)

John
Any chance you can post some pictures of this engine along with the installation. Do the couplers work from TMCC.
Robert


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2015)

Laz, wonderful photos of you at work and with your Mom. :thumbsup:


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## gunrunnerjohn (Nov 10, 2010)

Frisco Firefly said:


> John
> Any chance you can post some pictures of this engine along with the installation. Do the couplers work from TMCC.
> Robert


Well, I would, but I'd have to take it apart, so probably not unless at some point I have to open it up. Yes, the couplers are standard electrocouplers and they do indeed work with TMCC.


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## 86TA355SR (Feb 27, 2015)

PatKn said:


> Fantastic detail on that UP. :thumbsup:


Pat, Thank you. Lot of time in it. I've spiraled out of control on a few of my recent projects and I haven't finished my FEF-1!



Lee Willis said:


> that is one cool model, I love it?
> 
> Kohs?


Overland. With a lot of upgrades.


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