# Question on Feeder Wires/Feeder Bus



## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

I may be making an molehill into a mountain- so somebody help set me straight. 

I have a 4 X 8 layout with 3 lines on the left side and two lines on the right with some crossovers- Two main lines.

I have a wiring diagram that was also included in one of the older books that I found when I rediscovered all of my HO scale stuff back in 2011.


So the layout itself, in theory; is operational with two Cab Units, and Two Selectors. 

When running feeder wires from my tracks to my Feeder Bus, do I just need to run one feeder wire every couple of feet around the layout to the Feeder Bus, or do I need to run two Feeder Wires every couple of feet around the layout from the track to the Feeder Bus? 

Can anyone provide some insight. Kind of stuck right now on the best way to approach this....


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## Gansett (Apr 8, 2011)

Unless I'm missing something and reading this wrong but what good will just one wire going from the bus to the feeder to the track do? You need a second wire to complete the circuit.


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## sstlaure (Oct 12, 2010)

I ran both + and - feeder leads on each track section for reliability. You can use a common ground on the whole layout or have separate grounds for each "block" I ran separate grounds myself. (I've been told this is better for DCC operation.)


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## Brakeman Jake (Mar 8, 2009)

Continuity problems generally come from rail joiners that lose some or all their conductivity as time goes on due to humidity,track expansion,etc.I use flextrack (36 in. long) and make them six foot sections by soldering two end to end then supply feeders to every one of these six foot sections.This way I can allow small expansion gaps every six feet and not worry about current loss.

I also supply feeders to every section that are between turnouts,even if only one inch long so that turnouts remain reliable too.BTW,I never solder turnouts unless a problem occured that would require this.

I also supply feeders to all other trackage that's off the main like yard tracks,sidings,etc.I don't depend on the "power routing" feature of the turnouts.

I'm actually building my layout and it is more work but I feel having to keep all these tracks clean when this is all over will be enough chore by itself without having to constantly be searching continuity losses.


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

Still new when it comes to this stuff, so please bear this in mind. 

I have been looking at the diagrams over and over and I realized that obviously I need a positive and negative run in the cables. Duh on my part. 

Sorry if I wasted this space.


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## Don Trinko (Oct 23, 2012)

When I put the track in I make sure the rail joiners do not slip in to easy. I have a small layout (38" x 60") and I only have one power feed. I have no problems but a 2nd feed on the other side of the track would probably insure reliability for years to come.
One thing I have found is to test the layout BEFORE competing the loop. When you complete the loop you have power coming from 2 directions and everything may work fine even if you have a bad connection at one rail joiner. All IMO; Don


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

I am posting the wiring diagram that I have...as I said, please be nice- I know it may sound simple and maybe it IS simple; but this whole thing of trying to figure out the wiring on this has been... ugh.

My questions are these:

Since this is the layout that I have currently set up:

I have Terminal Strips, and the capability to Solder wires. WHERE in this wiring diagram does my Feeder Bus go- THAT is the biggest problem that I am having to put my mind around, and maybe it is simple, but can someone PLEASE tell me. 

I just feel like everything that I have read and every Youtube video that I have watched- it's like some giant insider secret, and guess what, I don't know the answer...

Being blunt here; can someone just TELL me in Plain English Please....

I just feel so stupid because this has been the major problem that I have in trying to get my layout operational. Between work, life, and trying to make heads or tails of this....


I'm just feeling bummed and frustrated with this whole thing right now... and I really don't want to feel like this but just really could use some help. 

I am feeling majorly discouraged right now. 

I have Control Packs, Two Atlas Selectors; Atlas Controller, and Two Terminal Strips.


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

The only bus you will have will be the common to the power packs. A single 14 gauge line running centered under the oval tracks. Add a 18 gauge line from the bus to all common terminals. Keep this connection short. Solder all joiners except the insulated ones. This will in effect, make your wiring DCC ready as well as improving the electrical reliability of the track. Just keep the rail tops and wheels clean.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

Hang in there Hoscale...

It's not all that complicated.

It appears from what you have said this is a DC system,
with no DCC.

But I'm not sure exactly which buss you are asking about.

Is it the connection between the track and controls/selectors?

I'll assume you say yes.

You indicate your understanding that each track must have a + and
a - Connection.

The way I read your diagram the red lines carry ONLY the + from the selectors.

Going on that assumption I suggest the following:

Using the very bottom track 
Assign N to the top rail and S to the bottom rail. 
You seem to show the - (or common) is connected to the S rail.
Follow that rail all around your layout making certain that the S rails
of all of tracks are tied to this point (or - on your terminal strip).

Next, I think I see that you have gaps in only the N rail to Isolate sections. 
There should be a wire with + from your selector to the N rail in every
isolated section.

Following this procedure you should have a nicely functioning
layout.

Since you are DC using this type of
wiring means that every loco on the layout would be going forward
at the same time if on a live track. Is that your intent?

One additional thought: If you actually are installing a DCC system
all of those selectors and multiple gaps would be almost
totally eliminated. You would need only to gap any track you
wanted to shut down from time to time. All others would always
be 'hot'. You would have a + buss that connects at various points to
the N rail and a - buss that connects to every S rail at the same points.

If I have made wrong assumptions please correct me and we'll start over.

Don


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

DonR said:


> Hang in there Hoscale...
> 
> It's not all that complicated.
> 
> ...


Don,

Thank you for the reply. To elaborate further- Yes this is a DC setup. I have been slowly getting back into the hobby over the past; almost two years (This November).

I simply do not have the money to afford a DCC setup right now...and quite simply I wanted to start basic with a DC setup before I go the upgrade route, if I ever do; it may be quite a few years before I venture into that realm...that is another story for another day. 

Yes, I am talking about the wire that would run between track and the controllers.

If I wire it up as the diagram shown, would two trains be running only run direction or could I have two trains running in opposite directions at the same time? 

The Power Bus Wire is 16 Gauge, while the Track Feeders will be 18 Gauge. 

It seems that there is not much written (maybe I am wrong) about hooking up a standard DC setup anymore....

Sorry if it comes across as me being Bitter- I just want to run my trains!

I also did take the time today to go through the diagram and mark every piece of track at various points around the track plan with a + or a - marking. On my marked diagram, would 12 feeder lines for + and - be overkill (12 Total) or would this suffice in making this a good working layout?


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## JerryH (Nov 18, 2012)

Your diagram shows only a single common line for the entire layout. While you will only run two trains and the current load will be low, unless all of the track joints are perfect, you will likely experience erratic operation around the layout. Your voltage drop going through all that rail rather than copper will be significant. With proper selector and cab use, you can run two trains in opposite directions on DC.


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## rrgrassi (May 3, 2012)

I use a 4x6 board at the local flea market due to a request from the booth partner. Guys will stop and talk trains while the women shop for candles. I do sell excess stuff, or stuff I do not want. I also buy and resell, but that is reserved for ebay stuff, not stuff I buy here on the forum.

The board breaks down in to four 2x3 sections so I can load it into the trunk. Each section has it's own power feed, and I made all the wires the same length from the junction box. It runs DC and DCC with out an issue.


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## DonR (Oct 18, 2012)

HOscale

The wire gauges you have specified are ok for the busses and
drops.

You have a lot more track feeders than I would do. For the size
layout that you have one pair to each track of the double main at
four points would be adequate. But you show gaps to isolate
some tracks. Each isolated section would need a feeder. Do you
have plans for those isolated tracks that would require the 
isolation? (that lets you turn off any loco on that track). If not,
I'd eliminate some and simplify your wiring and operating.

The nice thing about what you are planning is that if you ever do 
climb on the DCC wagon all you'll have to do is tie all the plus wires together
and do the same for all the minus wires. These are then fed by a pair from the
DCC controller and you would do away completely with the selector and
never have to flip those toggles again. You would not have to rewire anything
beyond that.

But then there is the drawback that you asked about. DC locomotives go
forward when the track has one polarity. To make the locomotive
go backward, you flip a switch that reverses the track polarity. Unfortunately,
ALL locomotives on the various tracks will also go forward...or after
flipping they all back up. Likewise, all will run at the same
speed and all will stop at the same time. On a DC layout you cannot have a locomotive
going forward and another going backward unless you create an even
more complex wiring scheme. (see edit below)

I came by back BY EDIT with additional thought. I don't know the exact
equipment you have indicated. But after further thinking I wonder if
the two power packs and the selector panel you have might have the ability
to select which power pack feeds which track in your layout. If
that is the case, you possibly have the capability of separately
controlling 2 different trains, starting, stopping and reversing them
individually. For this you would need to have gaps in
both rails isolating, for example, the inner loop from the outer loop.
But it also would require that you run 2 leads to each track. Is the
instruction manual and wiring diagram for your selector panel
available so you could post it? A pic showing the panel and controllers
may indicate it's capability.

These complications is why you hear so much from us about DCC...a DCC track is
fully energized at all times. It has a special digital carrier that decoders
in each loco read. When you punch up a certain loco on the loco it will go the
direction you direct at the speed you select.
Any other locos you have running will continue
what they were doing. I have a single track mainline with passing
sidings on my DCC layout. I run 3 or 4 trains, 2 in one direction, the others in the
opposite direction for example. That is impossible with DC.

There is plenty of fun built into the layout you have chosen and 
it will offer untold hours of enjoyment as DC. Just keep in mind
that almost all of us ran DC trains and enjoyed them. I had a complex
N scale DC layout with a 2 track main, and a second level isolated loop. I had
two DC power packs and a panel of switches that made possible the
separate control of 2 locomotives running at the same time. It was fun.

Hope this now totally disjointed response has not totally blown your mind. 

Keep us posted on how you are coming along.

Don


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## hoscale37 (Nov 20, 2011)

Update:

Yesterday I ran some wiring and I also have the Selectors in place. Since most of my equipment I bought used- I have a few old school electrical supplies in the name of a few bachmann, tyco, and AHM controllers. I know, I know- but right now I am on a limited budget, so give me some credit for being able to get the layout running with what I have. 

In my design I have done an interesting thing that will help me in the future if I need to change the controllers out. Each controller is mounted on a piece of velcro, so if they need to be changed out, I just need to pull the control unit off of the control panel and swap it out. I know, it's a bit of a cheap set up but; it works. 

The selectors that I am using are also inexpensive Atlas Selectors (#215). I have two of these mounted to my control board. 

Right now this setup, while it is extremely simplistic; will provide me with a good learning opportunity and the ability for me expand on my working knowledge so that if and when the time comes, I can easily change things out. Keep in mind that this is my first attempt at building a layout period; so the things I learn from this I will be able to build and expand on for the future.


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