# Lionel 682 linkage went to shop now derails



## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Hello,firstly thank you everyone for all their information with everything. So I have a postwar 682, the linkage going to the car body and wheels was bent, so ordered all the original parts and took it to a shop. They fixed it and got it back, it functions great but grinds and derails the front wheels, has anyone had this issue before. Because the guy who had it prior rigged it with something that wasn't factory Lionel components to make it work. So now I'm worried that his modification was done because it would in fact detail it while it was running. So has anyone dealt with an issue of their 682 linkage hitting the front wheels and derailing them. Thanks for the information guys. Don't know if I should take it back to the shop. Or just try to figure it out because he placed it back to stock.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Is the only thing changed the complete linkage? Have the wheels ever been taken off, and put back on correctly Quartered. Quartering is having one side set of wheels, 90 degrees apart. On the turbines, the left side wheels are 90 degs. ahead of the right side.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Is the only thing changed the complete linkage? Have the wheels ever been taken off, and put back on correctly Quartered. Quartering is having one side set of wheels, 90 degrees apart. On the turbines, the left side wheels are 90 degs. ahead of the right side.


I don't know, what exactly this quartering is. Do you have a picture I could see. Or I could take a picture of mine so you could see it, to see how far it's off.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay, first off, all the wheels on one side where the side rod linkage are connected should all line up, otherwise the side rod 4 screws won't align right. The same thing goes for the opposite side linkage. I am discounting the extra "oiler linkage" for the time being. 

Quartering refers to the wheel position, where the screw hole lines up in relation to a clock face. Look at just one wheel, and if the linkage screw is up top, it is at 12 o'clock position, and if facing forward, it is at 3 o'clock, and so on. Quartering only comes into play when dealing with Steam Engines, with one exception. On the 671/681/682/2020 turbines put the hole on the left side at the 9 o'clock position. The right side holes should be at 12 o'clock. That is exactly how it has to be, NO IFs & or BUTS. That hold for just these S-2 Turbines.

All other Steam loco, have the exact opposite where the right side wheel at 3 o'clock, the left side has to be at 12 o'clock.

The wheel linkage has to be 90 degrees apart, or a quarter of the clock face apart.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Lionel 682 oiler linkage alignment*

Randomtask2, Here are a few photos taken from an old auction, that shows how the linkage needs to be placed. It also shows how all the screw holes for the side rod are in perfect alignment. Hopefully you can understand the notes added to the photos.
















For anyone that has Lionel Steam engines, the wheels have to be quartered, so that the motor runs smoothly. Use a clock face as a reference, with 12-3-6-9 o'clock as your positions. One side set of linkage has to be 90 degrees apart from the other side. On 99% of Steam engines the right side *LEADS* THE LEFT SIDE. On the S-2 Turbines (671/681/682/2020 locos), it is the exact opposite, where the LEFT SIDE LEADS THE RIGHT SIDE BY 90 degrees. If they are misaligned, you get wobbling when it goes around the track.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Random, Do you understand what I posted. Also, the 6 wheel truck assemblies have slots shaped like a crescent(curved). If you look at the bottom at the two sets, the curves would look like parentheses.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Randomtask2, Here are a few photos taken from an old auction, that shows how the linkage needs to be placed. It also shows how all the screw holes for the side rod are in perfect alignment. Hopefully you can understand the notes added to the photos.
> View attachment 174618
> 
> 
> ...


I will review all this information tomorrow, and then show my dad because it's his train. So I really can't thank you enough for all this advice because I really am in need of it. One of these days I will have to give you advice in return.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The majority of the guys here in 0 gauge & tinplate like to help when we can. We all learn something from each other, or know where to get an answer. 

NO SWEAT, it's fun fixing stuff yourself, when you can.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> The majority of the guys here in 0 gauge & tinplate like to help when we can. We all learn something from each other, or know where to get an answer.
> 
> NO SWEAT, it's fun fixing stuff yourself, when you can.


 OK so I followed the diagram that you gave me, Took linkages off and adjusted it according to what position was on the 682 that was in the picture of in that picture and now the wheels don't even go they lock up. So the way that that 682 is adjusted for mine doesn't work, which leads me to believe that there could be an issue with my 682, if that is the precise specification and it's not working for me.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Randomtask2, I personally do not own a 682, and can only go by previous posts, and looking at photos, with regard to the linkage. I know that that extra set of linkage is quite tricky to get it to work correctly as it should. Have you tried to run the locomotive without the linkage attached, and just leaving the "oiler linkage" hanging from the body. I would be curious if you still get any kind of annoying 'wobble' as you stated from the initial posting. If you can take the side rods off, and run the loco, to see if it still wobbles, it may be something with the wheels/axles and the bushings which are pressed into the frame.

Can you tell me exactly what the Repair guy did, to put it back together. Exactly what parts did he replace?? It may help to know what he did. I will wait for an answer before I say anything else.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

There is an apparent problem with Photos at the present time, and some threads won't show the photos that were attached. I went back to your first post with the problem, and wanted to examine the photos, but they don't show up now. Don't know the reason why!!! I wanted to see to compare what I posted, to find anything that popped up, that didn't look right. If I am right, you said that the 682 was bought from eBay, and that the extra linkage was not hooked up with the Drive Stud, but a screw. The original owner must have had a problem, and took it upon himself to try and fix it. Not understanding that it was a stud and not a screw, he broke it, and repaired it as best he could. (These are assumptions on my part).. It could all go back to how well was this 682 maintained, during his ownership. Did he keep it cleaned, lubed & oiled, as it should have been????? Anyone's guess at this point. Referring to some of my initial replies, you could very well have a problem with the brass bushings that are pressed into the black frame. If there is just enough slop in any one of the bushings, on the Drive wheels, not the center ones, it would cause wobbling. I have had to replace a set of bushings on one of my frames, and it isn't hard, but it isn't exactly easy to remove the old ones.
I'm throwing these thoughts out here, because I don't know what your repair guy did.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Deleted as double post..


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> There is an apparent problem with Photos at the present time, and some threads won't show the photos that were attached. I went back to your first post with the problem, and wanted to examine the photos, but they don't show up now. Don't know the reason why!!! I wanted to see to compare what I posted, to find anything that popped up, that didn't look right. If I am right, you said that the 682 was bought from eBay, and that the extra linkage was not hooked up with the Drive Stud, but a screw. The original owner must have had a problem, and took it upon himself to try and fix it. Not understanding that it was a stud and not a screw, he broke it, and repaired it as best he could. (These are assumptions on my part).. It could all go back to how well was this 682 maintained, during his ownership. Did he keep it cleaned, lubed & oiled, as it should have been????? Anyone's guess at this point. Referring to some of my initial replies, you could very well have a problem with the brass bushings that are pressed into the black frame. If there is just enough slop in any one of the bushings, on the Drive wheels, not the center ones, it would cause wobbling. I have had to replace a set of bushings on one of my frames, and it isn't hard, but it isn't exactly easy to remove the old ones.
> I'm throwing these thoughts out here, because I don't know what your repair guy did.


The linkages were the only things replaced and new rivets. I will take pics of what it looks like complete once I get home.I have pictures prior to it getting repair. And I believe it does still have the wobble. It's minor though. My dad is just a perfectionist. I really do appreciate, the amount of advice. And how far your going to help me out.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Let me know if the pictures are working there not for me.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I know you are frustrated, but your father needs to realize the 682 is close to 70 years old, and will not run as smooth as glass, like most of the new stuff. My original suspicion for the wobble has got to be the brass bushings. You may not feel it by checking each axle and wheel set by hand, but it will show up while running on the track. That brings a whole different problem into the mix. You would have to pull the wheels/axles off, remove the bushings, press in new bushings, then reinstall everything. That requires a wheel puller, and a wheel press, to accomplish it all. Way beyond the cost and skill to accomplish on your own.

The front truck derailment is puzzling. Don't know why it does it.

The Forum has a problem with the Photos not appearing over the last few days, and not sure when it can be fixed????? Your photo doesn't show right now!!!!


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> I know you are frustrated, but your father needs to realize the 682 is close to 70 years old, and will not run as smooth as glass, like most of the new stuff. My original suspicion for the wobble has got to be the brass bushings. You may not feel it by checking each axle and wheel set by hand, but it will show up while running on the track. That brings a whole different problem into the mix. You would have to pull the wheels/axles off, remove the bushings, press in new bushings, then reinstall everything. That requires a wheel puller, and a wheel press, to accomplish it all. Way beyond the cost and skill to accomplish on your own.
> 
> The front truck derailment is puzzling. Don't know why it does it.
> 
> The Forum has a problem with the Photos not appearing over the last few days, and not sure when it can be fixed????? Your photo doesn't show right now!!!!


 Yeah I was wondering why the pictures won't work. So I was going to bring it up to the train guy who fixed it. About the linkage hitting the front wheels and knocking it off track.Because he has been doing this for a very long time. I don't think he made a mistake. But if only the 682 Didn't use those linkages. Lol


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Lionel tried to increase sales and decided to make the 682 a little more attractive with the white stripe and added linkage. The body from the 681 can NOT be faked to create a 682, so the rarity factor comes into play. That makes the 682 more desirable, over the 681. Both include Magnatraction, the 671/2020 don't have it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

The photo function is working again, but if it didn't show earlier, it has to be reloaded, so it works.

I Just had a thought about the derailing issue. Does it happen in straight sections, or just in curves. If it is in curves, what type of track are you using?? Is it 027 or 0 profile, and what radius of curves are they. If the curve radius is too tight, the truck assembly will turn drastically, which would cause rather front linkage to hit the truck, causing a derailment. Just a thought!!


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> The photo function is working again, but if it didn't show earlier, it has to be reloaded, so it works.
> 
> I Just had a thought about the derailing issue. Does it happen in straight sections, or just in curves. If it is in curves, what type of track are you using?? Is it 027 or 0 profile, and what radius of curves are they. If the curve radius is too tight, the truck assembly will turn drastically, which would cause rather front linkage to hit the truck, causing a derailment. Just a thought!!


Yea it derails front linkage on a straight track. Linkage bumps front trucks.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> The photo function is working again, but if it didn't show earlier, it has to be reloaded, so it works.
> 
> I Just had a thought about the derailing issue. Does it happen in straight sections, or just in curves. If it is in curves, what type of track are you using?? Is it 027 or 0 profile, and what radius of curves are they. If the curve radius is too tight, the truck assembly will turn drastically, which would cause rather front linkage to hit the truck, causing a derailment. Just a thought!!


This is old linkage and obviously one bent.


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## santafe158 (Jul 14, 2010)

Are both front wheels actually tight against the axle? I'm not sure if it's a possibility with the later issue turbines, but my 1946 era 2020 turbine had to have a front wheel replaced because it was loose on the axle, and years of running it wore the axle hole in the wheel way oversize. Keep in mind though, the front and rear axles are both powered on the 1946 ones, while only the rear one on later turbines, so I don't know if that problem could even be a possibility.

The binding could be because the main rods are binding if the wheels are even slightly out of quarter. It's more critical on these 8 wheel drive engines such as the turbines and berkshires, that the wheels be exactly quartered because the rods are actually transmitting the forces from the powered axle.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Is there a way to show the bottom front photo, to see how close the linkage lines up parallel to the front truck. For it to interfere with the front truck, it must be really close.

If you go to your repair guy again, have him run it on a test track, to have him witness what it's doing. I am only guessing that he didn't do that when he did his repair.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Is there a way to show the bottom front photo, to see how close the linkage lines up parallel to the front truck. For it to interfere with the front truck, it must be really close.


I will take a pic of it once I get home. But it takes paint off the front wheels. Because it hits so hard. If there is a structural issue. I will have a great running 682 going up for sale. This is the only other picture I have.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I went back to one of your first post about the light not working, and took a close look at the linkage and wheels. I am pretty sure I know why you have the derailing issue. I need you to verify what I suspect with a photo of the wheel sets without the linkage attached, showing the bare wheels. If it is what I think, you have a cure, but will need to get some parts.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> I went back to one of your first post about the light not working, and took a close look at the linkage and wheels. I am pretty sure I know why you have the derailing issue. I need you to verify what I suspect with a photo of the wheel sets without the linkage attached, showing the bare wheels. If it is what I think, you have a cure, but will need to get some parts.


Really this is fantastic news, my dad is in love with this turbine and would seriously make him sad if I sold it. But we're currently about to go look at a 726 this weekend 1946 in like new shape with the correct tender. And I will take pictures the second I get home.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I will await the pictures, especially the shot of the wheels without any linkage. I hope I see what I expect, and you will be kind of glad when I see what I think the cause is. Good luck on the hunt for that 726. They used the same style of motor as the turbines, so they are easy to work on.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> I will await the pictures, especially the shot of the wheels without any linkage. I hope I see what I expect, and you will be kind of glad when I see what I think the cause is. Good luck on the hunt for that 726. They used the same style of motor as the turbines, so they are easy to work on.


Couple pictures


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> I will await the pictures, especially the shot of the wheels without any linkage. I hope I see what I expect, and you will be kind of glad when I see what I think the cause is. Good luck on the hunt for that 726. They used the same style of motor as the turbines, so they are easy to work on.


More pictures


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> I will await the pictures, especially the shot of the wheels without any linkage. I hope I see what I expect, and you will be kind of glad when I see what I think the cause is. Good luck on the hunt for that 726. They used the same style of motor as the turbines, so they are easy to work on.


Other side


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

If you need me to take a picture of the bottom of the train let me know. But you can see where it's hitting the front truck and taking the paint off. And the front truck is tight. So what do you think


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

I know you probably don't want to do it, but take the side rods off one side, so all I see are the wheels without the linkage blocking the wheels. There is a possibility that you are missing spacers, but I won't know unless I can see just the wheels without the linkage.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

*Having the image show up in the body of the post*

I'm not sure what you are using to reply, (computer, mobile device), but you can insert the image directly into the message if you go through the "manage the attachment" feature down below this window. You can upload up to 5 photos at one time, and then when you want to put them within the text, look up above the window you are typing in, and there is a "Paperclip icon" near the Smiley face. Click on that, and it will ask you to Insert All, or you can just do one at a time. It makes it easier to see it, without have to click on the attached image.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

Ok here you go


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Wow, that blew my thought right out of the water. The 681 and the 682 are virtually the same frame, because they both have 'Magnetraction', whereas the 671/2020 don't have it. The wheel sets on a 681 don't really require spacers inserted into the screw hole, where the linkage is attached, and the side rods would be closer to the wheels. On a 682, it has to have the spacers installed into the screw holes, to "kick out" the linkage farther away from the wheels to give you clearance for the added linkage. Your wheel sets in fact do have the spacer inserts, which I had an idea that they may have been missing. No I don't have a clue as to what is causing the derailing and the rubbing against the front truck. 

Not owning a 682, I can only go by what I see in photos, of which I have looked at plenty. How much slop is there where the Oiler linkage attaches to the front wheel. In other words, is there excessive play on the bottom half of that linkage, that it can move in an out, when it is back together. My thought process is that if the linkage is screwed down tight enough, to keep it from moving in and out, but not that tight for it to not rotate, it should not hit the front truck.....hmmmmmmmmm!!!

And it apparently only does the derailing/hitting the front truck when that linkage is attached. It probably doesn't do any of that if that linkage were not there....just guessing now.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Gotta go, dinner time, but will be back later.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Is that arm supposed to be bent up instead of down? If its up it wouldn't hit the frame? Take it apart put the linkage in the opposite position? Just a thought


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Like this one? Can you see the difference? https://www.google.com/search?q=lio...AUIBygB&biw=962&bih=601#imgrc=wQ8wvLfMAA1HcM:


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Doc might be able to explain it better, if not I'll try. Just line up the linkage like in the photo. Yours looks off . That might do it. I had the same problem , I went to fix a 1666 and forgot to shoot photos of the linkage. After scouring the net for pictures, and 6 days later I put the linkage back the correct way.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

sjm9911 said:


> Doc might be able to explain it better, if not I'll try. Just line up the linkage like in the photo. Yours looks off . That might do it. I had the same problem , I went to fix a 1666 and forgot to shoot photos of the linkage. After scouring the net for pictures, and 6 days later I put the linkage back the correct way.


You were absolutly right. now it runs without hitting. Will have to touch up the front truck paint now. It would hit like this straight from the shop. So my dad adjusted it just like you said. And it worked beautifully. thanks guys and doc seriously you are so knowledgeable. I should give you money in paypal for the advice, So you can buy yourself a case of beer. lol


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Teledoc did most of the work, I made this mistake before and just happened to catch it it was miniscule and almost impossible to see if you haven't experienced it yourself. I got lucky buy noticing it! Some say a black Sharpei will touch up a old black rig. It will leave a shine at first but then fade. I never tried it.


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Random, To give you a little heads up, I didn't know crap about repairing my own stuff around 6 years ago, but decided to jump into the pool, so to speak. I needed to buy some books, specifically a Service Manual for part numbers, Catalogs on Postwar/Prewar to know what a ballpark value was, so I didn't go crazy when I wanted to bid on something. I joined CTT forum first, found this one MTF, but forgot about it, and OGR forum, and just kept reading different posts, with repairs and restorations. Over the past 7 years, and learning from the guys here in the 0 gauge and Tinplate section, I learned a lot. We all share information when we need help, and that is the best part of this group here. The old adage "Knowledge is Power" is absolutely true, and I have learned by leaps and bounds from the group here.

I'm just glad you got it to run right, and the Sharpie is an easy way to do a small touch-up. It will appear shiny at first, but give it a little time to dry, by a few minutes, and then rub it with your finger, and it should take some of the gloss off.

No payment necessary, as we just like to help, when we can. Besides, I don't drink beer, and gave up drinking long ago. If I have 2-3 drinks in a year, that is maybe it. I had my fun when I was young and stupid.

The turbines (671/681/682/2020) are one of my favorites....I have three 2020's and two 681's, and a whole bunch of recently acquired Prewar stuff. I got hung up on the 1688E Torpedo's, and the 1588/1668 locos, and wrote up a complete explanation of the variations. If you have any problems, or questions, just post them, and at least one of us will jump in and try to answer.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

He's right as I knew nothing about this stuff like 5 years ago. I learned here, so I help when I can. Without every one here I would know nothing.


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## Randomtask2 (Nov 29, 2015)

teledoc said:


> Random, To give you a little heads up, I didn't know crap about repairing my own stuff around 6 years ago, but decided to jump into the pool, so to speak. I needed to buy some books, specifically a Service Manual for part numbers, Catalogs on Postwar/Prewar to know what a ballpark value was, so I didn't go crazy when I wanted to bid on something. I joined CTT forum first, found this one MTF, but forgot about it, and OGR forum, and just kept reading different posts, with repairs and restorations. Over the past 7 years, and learning from the guys here in the 0 gauge and Tinplate section, I learned a lot. We all share information when we need help, and that is the best part of this group here. The old adage "Knowledge is Power" is absolutely true, and I have learned by leaps and bounds from the group here.
> 
> I'm just glad you got it to run right, and the Sharpie is an easy way to do a small touch-up. It will appear shiny at first, but give it a little time to dry, by a few minutes, and then rub it with your finger, and it should take some of the gloss off.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is my dads hobby as i have stated before. And he isn't really tech savvy. So he has me post all the questions lol. But he was blown away with the amount of knowledge and how helpful you guys are. And while i was reading the first diagnosis you had after you saw the picture of the wheels without the linkage. He shouted I got it. And started mumbling, why didn't I do it backwards from how i did it to begin with. So I didn't even get the chance to fix it. He did on his own. But with the help of your guys knowledge. I remembered Christmas of last year, I bought my dad a 2349. And it didn't power up. So I resoldered every wire still didn't work. And I noticed corrosion all along the bottom wire soldered to the truck, so fixed that and it powered up worked fine I was replacing his junky 2349 that was all discolored and worked going in one direction. I'm so glad it sold I actually made money on that one lol. But I enjoyed diagnosing both. Because both had issues. But the one direction one never got fixed. Just sold


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Random, sjm991 is right about being stupid with all this stuff five years ago. We got to know some of the guys who hang out in the 0 section, and the Tinplate section, and just started asking 'Stupid to Us' questions. They get to know you, and then the fun begins. We poke fun at each other from time to time, and share ideas and what we learn from each other. It is a fun hobby, and it keeps the mind sharp. Of course I am strictly old school with Prewar and Postwar trains, and have no desire to learn all the new electronic stuff. It is too late in the game for me to try and even understand, and even want to buy anything new. I thoroughly enjoy researching some of this stuff, and when I think it can be used by other members, I post it, for all to read/use or download for their own use.


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

Dont know your age im 42, teledoc a few years older but I started this finding an old set and remembering trains we had a kids. I was injured at the time and it was like therapy so , you might not realize when you might get addicted. Also its good to be able to fix stuff yourself, especially junky old stuff that can be brought back to life for a little work. Tell your dad he did good, and you did also, its fixed it might sound corny but save some time to play trains with dad. Its worth it!


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## teledoc (Oct 22, 2014)

Sjm9911, Lets just say I could be your father....ROFLMAO!!!!

You+score+half a dozen=??? That's your clue!!


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## sjm9911 (Dec 20, 2012)

68 is young doc I thought Lincoln was the last onto use score as a number!


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